# revisiting masamoto ks



## panda (Jan 3, 2016)

is it worth trying out? i've always only gone with tall blades that have good edge retention. the edge profile has me curious and white steel is super easy to maintain so could be a fun change of pace. ironically i'm currently more interested in the suji as i've got the 'need new toy (i mean) knife' itch and would rather just swap my current one (kikuichi elite carbon).

should i even bother? if so, anyone care to loan one out?


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## bkultra (Jan 3, 2016)

You want to borrow a Masamoto KS Suiji (mine is 270mm)? I can send you one to use, PM me your shipping information.


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## Chuckles (Jan 3, 2016)

Worth checking out. After you've been around the KKF block a few times the KS has a pretty basic vibe but in a classic way. My first suji was a kikuichi (didn't like) and I think the KS would be a fun toy to upgrade to.


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## El Pescador (Jan 4, 2016)

It has the best Shape...I love it's shape. I had 3... they all have disappointed, big thick edges. I'm having Marko re-imagine one for me.


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## YG420 (Jan 4, 2016)

My favorite profile by far. Edge gets screaming sharp, and even though it isnt the thinnest behind the edge, I've never had a problem with it wedging. Edge retention isnt the greatest but its a very fun knife and easy to sharpen on the stones!


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## Von blewitt (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm using a newish one at the moment, it's plenty thin enough, but sticktion is annoying and it has pretty much the worst edge retention of any knife I've used.
I love the profile though (Gyuto)


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## Dardeau (Jan 4, 2016)

I would agree with Huw, other than the stiction thing. I bought the one I was used and the right side had been fairly convexed while the left was flat. I plan on hunting down another and replicating that. 

The edge retention is pretty bad, and for whatever reason this knife hates a microbevel. I kept wanting to put one on for easy touchups and the performance was crap. As soon as I took it off and deburred by stropping the performance came back.


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## bkultra (Jan 4, 2016)

The package is on the way, enjoy.


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## Asteger (Jan 4, 2016)

bkultra said:


> The package is on the way, enjoy.



Nice gesture, reminiscent of the earlier days of passarounds and shares like this. Panda always seems to me like he'd be a bit rough, though, careful!


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## panda (Jan 4, 2016)

Bk, you're ultra awesome!


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## chinacats (Jan 4, 2016)

Von blewitt said:


> I'm using a newish one at the moment, it's plenty thin enough, but sticktion is annoying and it has pretty much the worst edge retention of any knife I've used.
> I love the profile though (Gyuto)





Dardeau said:


> I would agree with Huw, other than the stiction thing. I bought the one I was used and the right side had been fairly convexed while the left was flat. I plan on hunting down another and replicating that.
> 
> The edge retention is pretty bad, and for whatever reason this knife hates a microbevel. I kept wanting to put one on for easy touchups and the performance was crap. As soon as I took it off and deburred by stropping the performance came back.



When I thinned my rather thick KS, I convexed the right side rather heavily and had almost zero stiction. I hate micro-bevels...do like deburring by stropping...




panda said:


> Bk, you're ultra awesome!



Agreed, BK you still want to try a Watanabe?


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## Dardeau (Jan 4, 2016)

I love microbevels, this knife just didn't seem to want one.


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## chinacats (Jan 4, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> I love microbevels, this knife just didn't seem to want one.



You probably have a better sharpening touch than I do...part of the problem I have with white steel in general is that it is so easy to sharpen that I tend to use too much pressure...which for me makes blue steel easier to sharpen:O


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## panda (Jan 4, 2016)

I don't like microbevs either. 
What interests me about the ks gyuto is the distal taper for precise work as I think it would make a good contrast to my Takeda which I feel like is is too much knife sometimes.


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## labor of love (Jan 5, 2016)

It needs constant sharpening. If you're cool with that then go for it.


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## panda (Jan 5, 2016)

it can't remain usable for a few days with a ceramic steel? i wouldn't mind doing light touchups frequently since white steel is so easy. but constant full progression sharpening would be a deal breaker.


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## Newbflat (Jan 5, 2016)

I have a Masamoto Swedish gyuto in the mail as I type. I hope it holds a reasonable edge. This will be my first stainless knife in 7 or so years and you have me worried. 



Bill


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## bkultra (Jan 5, 2016)

chinacats said:


> Agreed, BK you still want to try a Watanabe?



I do and will one day take you up on the offer, thanks... But I have baby #2 on the way (10 weeks) and still have a lot to do.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jan 5, 2016)

BK, Better take China up on his offer before #2 arrives. You think things are busy now, boy oh boy, or maybe girl oh girl. Going from one to two is really moving from A league to the Pro's. Surprisingly in my case (Eight, Nine and Eleven), the addition of one more, made things easier, did I really say that. Seriously, congrats.


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## Dardeau (Jan 5, 2016)

Just pulled the trigger on a 270mm gyuto. Hopefully it will be my missing link between big prep knife and suji.


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## panda (Jan 5, 2016)

coolio, keep us posted.

also, is there anyone with a 240 ks gyuto they can loan out?


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## brainsausage (Jan 6, 2016)

panda said:


> coolio, keep us posted.
> 
> also, is there anyone with a 240 ks gyuto they can loan out?



I'd request an older one if I was you, Sun.


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## MAS4T0 (Jan 6, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> I'd request an older one if I was you, Sun.



I've heard about new KS's not being quite on par with the older ones, does anyone know if the Honyaki is the same as it's always been?


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## supersayan3 (Jan 6, 2016)

I aked Koki about the honyaki gyuto, but he told me that they havent made any honyaki gyutos for a long time. He offered to notify me, when next batch will be on production


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## MAS4T0 (Jan 6, 2016)

supersayan3 said:


> I aked Koki about the honyaki gyuto, but he told me that they havent made any honyaki gyutos for a long time. He offered to notify me, when next batch will be on production



Thanks for the tip.

I was intending to order a pair (gyuto and suji); I'll have to let Koki know so that I'm on the books for the next batch.


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## bkultra (Jan 6, 2016)

I also inquired about the honyaki gyutos (already own one) and was told they have not been produced for the better part of a year. There was also no indication that any were being made anytime soon.


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## panda (Jan 6, 2016)

Are these mono or san Mai?


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## bkultra (Jan 6, 2016)

Mono, Mizu honyaki (White #2)

Pics: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...Knives-Gallery?p=356994&viewfull=1#post356994


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## Newbflat (Jan 7, 2016)

For those interested in the Sweedish version of the KS I just posted a review of it. Makes me wonder about the current KS's out there and how they stack up against an older KS.


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## YG420 (Jan 7, 2016)

I picked up a white #2 ks from bluewayjapan in Nov. and am very happy with it. I never used an older model, but if theyre supposed to be better than the new stock then thats saying something!


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## panda (Jan 8, 2016)

i'm not worried about old vs new as i alter geometries myself anyway. more interested in the profile and whether or not i can live with lack of height and edge retention.


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## brainsausage (Jan 8, 2016)

panda said:


> i'm not worried about old vs new as i alter geometries myself anyway. more interested in the profile and whether or not i can live with lack of height and edge retention.



Can't speak from experience regarding the new, but the KS I had was Salty's old rig and the edge retention was pretty decent for white 2. Another reason I suggest the elder generations...


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## panda (Mar 24, 2016)

i've gotten a 240 (in reality 250) ks gyuto since starting this thread and the honeymoon phase has long passed. i'm pleased to report that i'm still thoroughly impressed with this knife. i completely understand why this was legendary back in the day. if they ever release the honyaki again, i will most certainly try to scurry up the funds to pick one up.

..or if someone wants to get rid of theirs (honyaki) i will be waiting.


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## masibu (Mar 24, 2016)

how do you feel revisiting in in comparison to the knives you had been using and in comparison to when you used it the first time? was considering revisiting this myself after my ks was stolen last year but ive gone back to watanabe. forgot how much arse it kicks not to mention ease of sharpening. i just hope my wimpy hands can handle it for long term use.


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## panda (Mar 24, 2016)

i appreciate it even more now than from the cherry popping. the initial use was 'oh that's a sweet profile, but it's so damn narrow!' versus it just feels 'right' at this point (precise smooth and ergonomic) i use it all day, but not for repeated bulk prep, i still pull out 270 takeda for those jobs. the d handle works too, i wouldn't swap it out.


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## jacko9 (Mar 24, 2016)

The Masamoto KS has been produced for quite a while now, are the newer production versions any different than older versions? I'm tempted to try a gyuto either a 210 or 240mm version.


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## Dardeau (Mar 24, 2016)

Unfortunately they don't make a 210. I have a newer 270 and once had an older 240. They are pretty darn similar.


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## jacko9 (Mar 24, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> Unfortunately they don't make a 210. I have a newer 270 and once had an older 240. They are pretty darn similar.



I noticed that the 270 is in stock at JKI but since I have a 300mm gyuto and a 270 suji, I think I'll wait for a 240.


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## Iggy (Mar 24, 2016)

I have a KS 240 Suji, actually it was my first really "good" kitchen knife and I still like to you it for slicing purposes. The heat treatment on the steel is really good I think, edge retention is on a very high level for Shirogami 2. Reactivity isn't very high neither and F&F overall (at least with my Suji) is quite good.

The 240 Gyuto profile was the model for the profile of one of my custom kitchen knives and it works pretty good as well.


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## masibu (Mar 24, 2016)

if i could get my hands on a 240 i might even put the slicer away. watanabe and ks combo would tackle most prep jobs with ease


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## Dardeau (Mar 24, 2016)

masibu said:


> if i could get my hands on a 240 i might even put the slicer away. watanabe and ks combo would tackle most prep jobs with ease



That is my long term plan: 270mm KS or KS based custom, 270mm Watanabe or Toyama, 270mm Shig mioroshi, 300mm shig yanagiba, 210mm Watanabe deba (fish restaurant), 210mm Heiji sujihiki, 210 mm Heiji gyuto, and an Ealy paring knife solves my knife needs.


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## panda (Mar 26, 2016)

Been delaying sharpening with generous use of ceramic steel and now I've got microchips. Is that because the edge has become so weak due to repeated realignments? I just thought the edge rolls easier when it weakens, not get more brittle. I don't use micro Bev and will not btw.


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## MAS4T0 (Mar 26, 2016)

panda said:


> Been delaying sharpening with generous use of ceramic steel and now I've got microchips. Is that because the edge has become so weak due to repeated realignments? I just thought the edge rolls easier when it weakens, not get more brittle. I don't use micro Bev and will not btw.



Aligning the edge will weaken it due to fatigue as you are plastically deforming the teeth in order to align them (bending them back into place). Honing the edge causes significant localised strain on the 'teeth' so they will fracture after relatively few cycles. 

It's not necessarily that the edge is more brittle, but rather that the teeth can only take so many cycles before they will break. If you've ever bent a credit card back and forth, it's the same premise, with each cycle it gets easier to bend until after a certain amount of cycles it fractures.


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## masibu (Mar 26, 2016)

ive found microbevels more beneficial for some alloys more than others. the white gyutos i have owned don't seem to benefit from it at all. sacrificing sharpness for minimal retention. actually, most carbon gyutos rarely get one for me. stainless or even semi stainless benefits (i assume because its less "pure" or larger grained or whatever). these knives seem to experience less microchipping or whatever plus it also means "touching up" is a little faster. i have very few chipping issues with carbon even on poly boards and low angles. i dont use a steel at all- ceramic or otherwise- as i find I am less consistent on a steel compared to a stone.


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## fujiyama (Mar 26, 2016)

The trick is not to over do it on the rod. Three passes on each side of the edge with light pressure. Under heavy use you shouldn't hone more than half a dozen times in a shift. I go slowly to maintain control.

Ultimately honing will weaken the edge but the key is to slow that down and sharpen before it happens. I love my ceramic but consider many factors while using it. 

Any reviews on the Masamoto KS Kiritsuke Gyuto? The regular 240 is hard to come by at the moment.


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## MAS4T0 (Mar 26, 2016)

miyabi said:


> Any reviews on the Masamoto KS Kiritsuke Gyuto?



I wasn't aware that there was a Masamoto Kiritsuke shaped gyuto. I've only seen the single bevel Kiritsuke.

Do you have a link?


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## fujiyama (Mar 26, 2016)

It's listed as new, I seen it about a month ago on JCK while looking for a 240 gyuto. It's expensive though. Scroll down here: 

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KSSeriesHonKasumiGyokuhakukou.html#KSSeries


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## jacko9 (Mar 26, 2016)

miyabi said:


> It's listed as new, I seen it about a month ago on JCK while looking for a 240 gyuto. It's expensive though. Scroll down here:
> 
> http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KSSeriesHonKasumiGyokuhakukou.html#KSSeries




I've seen that one as well, why on earth would that be so much more expensive than the 240 gyuto?


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## panda (May 30, 2016)

has anyone considered getting a heiji with ks profile? i'm head over heels with my ks, but desperately want it with harder steel. honyaki is no longer made (besides cost prohibitive). at the same time, not sure i would be happy with heiji's grind. i wonder if you can ask him to grind higher up on the blade, as in raise the shinogi line a bit? plus i want that distal taper of stock ks. and the very smooth spine. also, how much would it affect if i wanted more blade height? yet same edge profile and tip shape.

suppose i could regrind myself, but that would take forever. and i would really like a super rounded spine, that really makes a big difference when you're using it ALL day.


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## brainsausage (May 30, 2016)

panda said:


> has anyone considered getting a heiji with ks profile? i'm head over heels with my ks, but desperately want it with harder steel. honyaki is no longer made (besides cost prohibitive). at the same time, not sure i would be happy with heiji's grind. i wonder if you can ask him to grind higher up on the blade, as in raise the shinogi line a bit? plus i want that distal taper of stock ks. and the very smooth spine. also, how much would it affect if i wanted more blade height? yet same edge profile and tip shape.
> 
> suppose i could regrind myself, but that would take forever. and i would really like a super rounded spine, that really makes a big difference when you're using it ALL day.



It'd be a long wait, but Marko does excellent KS clones, and you can pick your steel...


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## panda (May 30, 2016)

Can he do white steel at high hrc?


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 30, 2016)

Watching some old Salty videos this morning, and this one seems relevant here:

[video=youtube;qOHx14MMDMw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOHx14MMDMw[/video]


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## MAS4T0 (May 30, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> It'd be a long wait, but Marko does excellent KS clones, and you can pick your steel...



I have one of these in 52100 and a Shigefusa grind, I got it because Masamoto wouldn't make me a lefty honyaki (or KS if I remember correctly) and I'm glad that I ended up with the Marko instead. It holds and edge forever and doesn't have anywhere near the reactivity of an iron clad knife.


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## panda (May 30, 2016)

I don't like tool steels or 52100. Haven't tried o1 but that's a big blind faith..

JB, I would love a Ks honyaki, but they're not available and quite pricey.


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 30, 2016)

Salty didn't note dramatic differences between the KS and the Honyaki...


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## Pensacola Tiger (May 30, 2016)

You could always try the Moritaka crapshoot. The profile is a faithful copy of the Masamoto.


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## chinacats (May 30, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I have one of these in 52100 and a Shigefusa grind, I got it because Masamoto wouldn't make me a lefty honyaki (or KS if I remember correctly) and I'm glad that I ended up with the Marko instead. It holds and edge forever and doesn't have anywhere near the reactivity of an iron clad knife.



FWIW, the KS is not iron clad...


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## panda (May 30, 2016)

maybe not a drastic difference to most, but for me that last 1% would make world of a difference to me. 

i have a moritaka petty, and i consider it a total beater. awful grind, and i've moved away from high alloy steels to white or iwasaki steel only. reactivity doesnt bother me, all my knives look like a complete mess


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## brainsausage (May 30, 2016)

Shoot Marko a PM. Pretty sure he's your best bet in this regard.


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## MAS4T0 (May 30, 2016)

chinacats said:


> FWIW, the KS is not iron clad...



Oops, sorry!

I knew than, I was meaning in reference to Japanese KS "alternatives" (which are often iron clad); such as the Moritaka...

In any case, it's less reactive than White steel!


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## panda (Jun 4, 2016)

no response from marko, whatever wasnt even really interested in his stuff anyway. anybody have a ks honyaki they want to sell?


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## Von blewitt (Jun 4, 2016)

I'm getting a custom from Ashi Hamono, but I had the order in before they stopped dealing with the public. Maybe Jon or Bernal cutlery can order you one with a KS profile. I'm getting mine in white#2 with the profile based off my Forgecraft with a bit extra heel height.
[URL=http://s1323.photobucket.com/user/huwjones1983/media/C6D37368-F909-4515-B91B-4AD69F1C00CF_zpsouukaklo.jpg.html]

[/URL]


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## labor of love (Jun 4, 2016)

Von blewitt said:


> I'm getting a custom from Ashi Hamono, but I had the order in before they stopped dealing with the public. Maybe Jon or Bernal cutlery can order you one with a KS profile. I'm getting mine in white#2 with the profile based off my Forgecraft with a bit extra heel height.
> [URL=http://s1323.photobucket.com/user/huwjones1983/media/C6D37368-F909-4515-B91B-4AD69F1C00CF_zpsouukaklo.jpg.html]
> 
> [/URL]



Is it going to be a laser? I think sakai yusuke makes thicker blades. Blue way was carrying a thicker blade, flatter profile yusuke Gyuto a couple years ago.


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## panda (Jun 4, 2016)

unless they can offer a 64-65 heat treat, not interested.


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## JDA_NC (Jun 4, 2016)

panda said:


> unless they can offer a 64-65 heat treat, not interested.



Who is doing White (or even just plain Carbon) Steel at that sort of hardness?


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## spoiledbroth (Jun 4, 2016)

I think he's referring to the honyaki ks?


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## JDA_NC (Jun 4, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> I think he's referring to the honyaki ks?



Genuinely curious.

I use a very hard (65-66HRC - Sukenari ZDP) knife at work and really enjoy it. But a lot of the things I appreciate in knives are completely counter to how Panda seems to feel (how a steel feels on the stones/sharpenability being the main one). So I'm a little surprised. I couldn't imagine using a 64-65 White Steel knife in a professional kitchen unless it was built like an axe. Even Katos are only around 62 and they are known for being chippy... Would be interesting to see a gyuto like that.

Are the Mizuno Honyaki Gyutos at that extreme? It seems their single bevels are being sold at that hardness.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 4, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> I think he's referring to the honyaki ks?



The honyaki technically goes by HS instead of KS, blue would be HA. 

HS-3124 http://www.masamoto-sohonten.co.jp/Japanese_knives/HS3124.html

I asked Koki about them quite some time ago when I was considering my first honyaki:


> Yes. We carry and sell Masamoto HS Series Honyaki Wa Gyuto item. But this items have been in serious delivery problem from Masamoto. These items could not be finished and available during last 1 year (as Masamoto KS Wa Gyuto.
> 
> Masamoto craftsmen who makes these items are having large backorders and could not make enough time for making these Masamoto items.
> 
> ...


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## brainsausage (Jun 4, 2016)

JDA_NC said:


> Genuinely curious.
> 
> I use a very hard (65-66HRC - Sukenari ZDP) knife at work and really enjoy it. But a lot of the things I appreciate in knives are completely counter to how Panda seems to feel (how a steel feels on the stones/sharpenability being the main one). So I'm a little surprised. I couldn't imagine using a 64-65 White Steel knife in a professional kitchen unless it was built like an axe. Even Katos are only around 62 and they are known for being chippy... Would be interesting to see a gyuto like that.
> 
> Are the Mizuno Honyaki Gyutos at that extreme? It seems their single bevels are being sold at that hardness.



Are you referring to the standard Kato, or the line that Maxim sells? I'd bet my Doi takobiki that the Maxim's Katos are higher than 62 hrc.


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## JDA_NC (Jun 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Are you referring to the standard Kato, or the line that Maxim sells? I'd bet my Doi takobiki that the Maxim's Katos are higher than 62 hrc.



I wish I had the experience!

I haven't used either so I couldn't say. I just know from comments and pictures. I didn't mention it as a fault of the knife but more of an example of their hardness. I can't remember where it was but the part about the edge chip scalloping being an example of the HT.

What do we think Kono Fuji White #1 knives are hardened to? I think of them as an example of of high end, really well done, "pure" white steel knives. 64-65 seems extreme.


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## panda (Jun 5, 2016)

it's all in japanese, how the f do i order that!!?? want!! lol i sent an email to koki last week but no response yet.

63-64 is probably more realistic. my favorite steel right now is the heat treat of the white steel in munetoshi line by jns, it's quite incredible (plus awesome food release grind). i would say it's right around 63, you can feel how much denser it is than other knives while cutting. i just wish it had better profile. if i could get this knife with ks profile it would be my unicorn. 
i also really like iwasaki steel that is what 63-64? only problem was when i owned a shig, i valued retention above all else, i've since changed preferences since then and from how i remember that steel it was pretty special except for crap retention. where as munetoshi retention is badass, it lasts even longer than takeda AS. doesnt feel as nice or easy to sharpen as iwasaki but it is still good feeling as white steel should be.

i'm not a fan of anything kono makes. i've tried both their blue (petty) and white steel (gyuto) fuji variants and was underwhelmed, biggest problem was the profile and grind was mediocre.
you're right jda, our knife journey have gone different directions. i don't like powdered steels either, although i wouldn't mind trying one in hap-40.

i'm told tilman uses 1.2something carbon steel treated to 65hrc, that could be fun.


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