# Confused concerning CBN for stropping



## rick alen (Nov 4, 2015)

2 questions for the moment:

I've heard up till very recently that stropping with CBN causes wires. Now I see those using Ken Swartz product (at least) say cbn is the greatest thing. Is there something new about the way they're making it now, or what?

I've also heard CBN works great when applied to a whetstone. What would I use on a 1K stone to speed its cutting but keep about the same depth scratch pattern? 



Rick


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## ecchef (Nov 4, 2015)

This sounds like a question for Mr. Martell. Any thoughts on this, Dave?


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## Dave Martell (Nov 4, 2015)

1. Ken Schwantz is the biggest *@%$#^&&* %@$!^*@ ever! If you want to know the deal about anything knife related just seek his advice and then do the complete opposite - it's a fool proof method for success.

2. CBN does work on knives. It moves steel for sure as it's very hard stuff. I personally don't like it as much as diamond, I simply prefer the edge that diamond gives, plus diamond deburrs better...IMO. Try it for yourself and see, that's really the only way to know how anything will work. Just don't buy the over priced snake oil, shop around.

3. Ken spritzes natural stones with synthetic abrasive sprays. Sound stupid? Does to me.


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## SousVideLoca (Nov 4, 2015)

> 1. Ken Schwantz is the biggest *@%$#^&&* %@$!^*@ ever! If you want to know the deal about anything knife related just seek his advice and then do the complete opposite - it's a fool proof method for success.


Hey now, that isn't fair. Check out this edge he put on one of my knives:







I mean, _come on_ Dave. Don't be jelly that you've been sharpening all this time, and can't get results that good. Some people are just _gifted._


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## Zwiefel (Nov 4, 2015)

Looks like somebody is ready to decorate their XMas tree!



SousVideLoca said:


> Hey now, that isn't fair. Check out this edge he put on one of my knives:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dave Martell (Nov 4, 2015)

LOL Jack 


Yeah he's gifted alright, in a short bus patron kind of way.


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## Smurfmacaw (Nov 4, 2015)

Wow! This seems like a loaded thread lol! How do you really feel Dave? You are usually so laid back there's got to be a back story here......


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## aboynamedsuita (Nov 4, 2015)

Who else can sharpen a knife to 256,000 grit?


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## GeneH (Nov 4, 2015)

Dave Martell said:


> 1. Ken Schwantz is the biggest *@%$#^&&* %@$!^*@ ever!.....



Saw that coming.... 

Anyway, from the couch quarterback perspective (mine, actually) After being around here, reading everything I can, if a stone isn't doing what you want, it's probably the wrong stone. Adding expensive stropping solutions to a stone that just gets mixed and washed off seems wasteful. 

I use old Boron Carbide 1 micron paste for stropping and that's plenty aggressive enough for me, and in some cases, too much. (And it's sooty black messy) I only go to 1K stone, and then just a few strokes and the edge is plenty good, and easily gets too smooth, minimal teeth.


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## rick alen (Nov 4, 2015)

I was never impressed watching ken on video, in fact in one episode he clearly demonstrated a senile detachment from reality, watch the one where he demonstrates the ******** 24 grit stone:
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?3,5870

Anyway, thanks for confirming what I suspected.



Rick


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## Dave Martell (Nov 4, 2015)

rick alen said:


> I was never impressed watching ken on video, in fact in one episode he clearly demonstrated a senile detachment from reality, watch the one where he demonstrates the ******** 24 grit stone:
> http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?3,5870
> 
> Anyway, thanks for confirming what I suspected.
> ...




3:36 on :rofl2:


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## ThEoRy (Nov 4, 2015)

Sorry I'm late. I was making the popcorn.


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## buttermilk (Nov 4, 2015)

rick alen said:


> I was never impressed watching ken on video, in fact in one episode he clearly demonstrated a senile detachment from reality, watch the one where he demonstrates the ******** 24 grit stone:
> http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?3,5870
> 
> Anyway, thanks for confirming what I suspected.
> ...



"I'd imagine everyone is cringing right now..." - yes, yes we are.


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## knyfeknerd (Nov 4, 2015)

:muahaha:
this thread makes me happy. 
ecchef just lined it up for Dave.


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## daveb (Nov 4, 2015)

Ken's name isn't censored. Any more. Give it a hundred years or so and Dave will be inviting him to dinner...:cool2:


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## Dardeau (Nov 4, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> Sorry I'm late. I was making the popcorn.



I'm out at my house.


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## Dardeau (Nov 4, 2015)

daveb said:


> Ken's name isn't censored. Any more. Give it a hundred years or so and Dave will be inviting him to dinner...:cool2:



I wish I could be enough of a dick that someone would want to never read my name again. That is a talent.


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## Dave Martell (Nov 4, 2015)

knyfeknerd said:


> :muahaha:
> this thread makes me happy.
> ecchef just lined it up for Dave.




Damn that ecchef, totally threw me a meatball I couldn't pass up.


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## ecchef (Nov 5, 2015)

How could I resist?!?


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## SousVideLoca (Nov 5, 2015)

Lulz.


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## mark76 (Nov 5, 2015)

I think it is a real pity there is still so much animosity between some members of this forum and CKTG/Ken Schwartz. It was before my time on this forum (and other knife fora) before something happened, apparently. I don't know what it was, and it wasn't my intention to get involved. But wouldn't it be a good idea to bury that Tomahawk after so many years??


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## daveb (Nov 5, 2015)

My sense is that most here are cktg neutral. But we all have a great sense of humor and are incredibly witty. And we like popcorn.


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## IndoorOutdoorCook (Nov 5, 2015)

Ken is all over straight razor groups on facebook. He's the go to guy for natural stones, compounds, and strops there. Unfortunately, a lot of what he posts is pure nonsense.


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## mark76 (Nov 5, 2015)

I agree Dave, and if it were just humor, I'd think it is great.

But this:



Dave Martell said:


> 1. Ken Schwantz is the biggest *@%$#^&&* %@$!^*@ ever! If you want to know the deal about anything knife related just seek his advice and then do the complete opposite - it's a fool proof method for success.





doesn't sound like humor.


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## Dave Martell (Nov 5, 2015)

It's truth.


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## Mucho Bocho (Nov 5, 2015)

mark76 said:


> I agree Dave, and if it were just humor, I'd think it is great.
> 
> But this:
> 
> ...



It made me laugh. Mark, Dave doesn't have a death wish for Ken. Its just that Ken tries to be the knife expert but if you've ever read his advise, it certainly leaves you with more questions than answers. We think its funny, but in a light hearted way. Sorry but if you've ever seen mr Schwartz prepare Indian Lamb, you tell me that didn't make you cringe and laugh at the same time. I find it amusing because Ken is actually very serious about knives and sharpening, and thats what makes it so funny. Like a dead pan Saturday Night Live skit just for knifenuts.


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## rick alen (Nov 5, 2015)

Ahaha well, I can pass on CBN as a stropping medium for the time being.

And I can also see where loading a waterstone with it may not be the most economical use. I would have to guess that maybe having something like Jon's diamond stones using CBN instead would be best.

But I wonder if anyone has tried loading mylar with CBN and had any luck doing leading-edge sharpening that way. Or if it turned out to be a decent way to thin everything behind the edge. I've also considered using Tyvec for this purpose, it seems it would have some obvious advantages over balsa and leather.

Any thoughts/personal experience here?


Rick


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## ecchef (Nov 5, 2015)

I'm trying to picture that, but can't. I'm assuming that you would adhere the film to some pretty solid base like stone or synthetic. Even still, with edge leading my guess is that it would scrape it right off on the first pass. Edge trailing, maybe....?


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## chinacats (Nov 5, 2015)

rick alen said:


> Ahaha well, I can pass on CBN as a stropping medium for the time being.
> 
> And I can also see where loading a waterstone with it may not be the most economical use. I would have to guess that maybe having something like Jon's diamond stones using CBN instead would be best.
> 
> ...



Get a rock, rub a knife on it and make it sharp...people overthink the hell out of this which I find completely amusing. (Said by someone with a very large stash of sharpening gear.:lol2

Ken's just funny.


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## GeneH (Nov 5, 2015)

Ok then, to help those of us who do not always spot the dangerous fool's instructions, how about a few examples and explanations why the particular sharpening or cutting technique is wrong? I would certainly appreciate the education. 

My thumb is healing from a bone head move but still hurts like a beejeebers.


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## Benuser (Nov 5, 2015)

Never understood the sense of using expensive substrates for giving back some bite to overly polished edge. Better skip or shorten intermediate stone sharpening.


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## psfred (Nov 5, 2015)

To inject some "serious" attempts at science here, for an abrasive to do much of anything to steel, it has to be held more or less stationary and scratch material off the steel as it passes (either can be in motion, it's all relative....). Loose grit on a stone is going to grab and gouge and roll just like grit broken free from the stone, so the effect is going to be different that a solidly attached grit particle.

CBN is quite hard, although short of diamond, and is a good abrasive. Also expensive, and I don't know what forms it's available in other than powder or coatings. I believe it is precipitated to get the cubic shape, so the grit range may be more controlled than say aluminum oxide, but I'm not sure.

Using it to load a strop is essentially embedding it in a softer matrix (leather, wood, etc) so that it's stationary but cushioned, so you get more polishing than cutting with light pressure.

Lapping with any compound requires either a soft enough base to hold the grit stationary, or accepting the very slow abrasion of grit rolling and sliding, it's normally a system used to fit things together by abrading areas that are higher than others -- hence the use of silicon carbide grit on flat (and soft) cast iron to flatten stones. No effect where there isn't pressure to cause the grit to dig in. Putting abrasive loose on a soft matrix is to make a strop, not a substitute for a stone like grit bonded in some way to a substrate.

In the final analysis there is nothing magical about CBN, it's just an expensive grit that cuts quite aggressively due to it's shape IF it's held down tight enough to work. I have my doubts about using it on the surface of whetstones -- I'd think it wouldn't do anything a muddy stone of similar grit would not, with greater expense. Could be wrong, I've not tried it and probably won't.

I'm always amused by mumbo-jumbo instead of science, but it can get you into trouble and can be VERY irritating when passed off as truth.

Peter


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## El Pescador (Nov 6, 2015)

I think its like broken glass on a concrete floor being pushed around with a broom. If there's someone way to bind it to the stone I'd get it, but then the next question is, why do you have the the stone in the first place? I'm trying to imagine how this could work like an aoto with a,mix of various sized grits that have be been homogeneously mixed into the stone, but that's the crux, there is no homogeneousness.


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## rick alen (Nov 6, 2015)

I do understand that in Ken's use of CBN on a natural, the .1mic cbn is suppose to be there to break down the naturals grit to a finer state. Well that's the theory anyways.

But my interest was in getting better cutting action from a stone, I can see now from psfred take, and the thing about the muds breakdown, and the mud loss, a stone is likely not the preferred substrate to use here.

Again, a bonded CBN stone seems the way to go, but I am curious to know what sort of aggressive cutting action can be had with stuck down mylar and tyvec as the substrates, and how economical the result. I know abrasive mylar sheets can be used for edge-leading strokes, but those sheets are rather expensive and wear fast. Also they may be available in diamond, but not CBN so far as I know.

This all is moving toward a project I likely won't get to for several years, and I don't think you'll see it on kickstarter ;-)~, so it may be a while before I would get around to experimenting here myself.


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