# Now I'm going crazy



## captaincaed (Mar 16, 2021)

Mirror polishing. Why did I start this?


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## RDalman (Mar 16, 2021)

Someone have time to kill 
Make a radiused backing maybe if it's been ground on wheel and have superlight concavity somewhere.


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## captaincaed (Mar 16, 2021)

I scratched it sharpening. And thought "how hard can it be"


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## captaincaed (Mar 16, 2021)

RDalman said:


> Someone have time to kill
> Make a radiused backing maybe if it's been ground on wheel and have superlight concavity somewhere.


What grit do you end at for a satin finish? I hear 600 is pretty common. I may call it quits while I still have finger tips.


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## RDalman (Mar 16, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> What grit do you end at for a satin finish? I hear 600 is pretty common. I may call it quits while I still have finger tips.


Yup 600 was what used to do when I did lengthwise. Rubber backing new paper leaning on front edge and long straight pulls for those final draws. Can also be "eased" with flitz/autosol buff after


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## RDalman (Mar 16, 2021)

You can also etch when you have sharp sandpaper finish and buff oxidation mostly or completely after etch.


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## captaincaed (Mar 16, 2021)

Satin it is!


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## captaincaed (Mar 16, 2021)

RDalman said:


> You can also etch when you have sharp sandpaper finish and buff oxidation mostly or completely after etch.


Are you thinking a coffee etch? Ferric?


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## RDalman (Mar 16, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Are you thinking a coffee etch? Ferric?


I usually do ferric but any will work really to bring out more hamon contrast. Warm vinegar is also option.


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## captaincaed (Mar 16, 2021)

BST is going to have half a honyaki pretty soon


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## hennyville (Mar 16, 2021)

good luck, Ao honyaki is pain in the @ss to polish.


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## captaincaed (Mar 16, 2021)

How did you know it was Ao?


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## hennyville (Mar 16, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> How did you know it was Ao?


on your blade? because of the stamp.


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## lemeneid (Mar 16, 2021)

Keep it up man. You’re doing great. Don’t stop till you get mirror 

Mines on 1k right now, going to jump to 1.5k or 2k next depending on what I fancy.


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## Carl Kotte (Mar 16, 2021)

@captaincaed are you really that good looking that you want to watch yourself cutting?


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## captaincaed (Mar 16, 2021)

No, I want the people beside me to look at themselves instead of my poor cutting skills!


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## captaincaed (Mar 16, 2021)

hennyville said:


> on your blade? because of the stamp.


Sharp eyes.


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## Carl Kotte (Mar 16, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> No, I want the people beside me to look at themselves instead of my poor cutting skills!
> View attachment 118674


That’s smart!


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## captaincaed (Mar 17, 2021)

On now I'm stuck in the dilemma. Is that a 1000 grit scratch from the last grit and I need to keep going with 1200, or is it lower grit, and I'm kidding myself.... ****.


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## captaincaed (Mar 17, 2021)

Definitely lower grit. 

Now do I care...


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 17, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Definitely lower grit.
> 
> Now do I care...



I'm guessing you do or you wouldn't have publicly contemplated it.


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## SeattleBen (Mar 17, 2021)

It’s almost always the answer that leads to more work.


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## captaincaed (Mar 17, 2021)

I hate to say it you're both right. 
I'm going to content myself with a clean satin finish, use for a bit, then maybe continue in the future. Learning a lot.


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## cotedupy (Mar 20, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> On now I'm stuck in the dilemma. Is that a 1000 grit scratch from the last grit and I need to keep going with 1200, or is it lower grit, and I'm kidding myself.... ****.



^ This is _always_ my problem. I don't pay enough attention early on, and then have to go re-do the whole thing. Happens every time. Though I've learned to now regard it as a 'feature' of the blade, rather than a defect


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## Luftmensch (Mar 20, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> On now I'm stuck in the dilemma. Is that a 1000 grit scratch from the last grit and I need to keep going with 1200, or is it lower grit, and I'm kidding myself.... ****.





cotedupy said:


> ^ This is _always_ my problem. I don't pay enough attention early on, and then have to go re-do the whole thing. Happens every time. Though I've learned to now regard it as a 'feature' of the blade, rather than a defect



The most effective strategy to reduce this ambiguity is to alternate angles every other grit. If your polish strokes are always parallel, you will have a hard time detecting when you have removed the previous grit.

Instead, do 400 grit at 45 degrees, then do 1000 grit at -45 degrees and so on. This makes it much easier to see when you are ready for the next grit


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## captaincaed (Mar 20, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> The most effective strategy to reduce this ambiguity is to alternate angles every other grit. If your polish strokes are always parallel, you will have a hard time detecting when you have removed the previous grit.
> 
> Instead, do 400 grit at 45 degrees, then do 1000 grit at -45 degrees and so on. This makes it much easier to see when you are ready for the next grit


Yeah, this is what I do, hopefully visible in first picture.


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## ModRQC (Mar 20, 2021)

About hot vinegar, here's a take: instead of heating it and probably disposing of it, get a large enough jar filled with it to soak the blade, do not heat it, and pour it back into the jug when done. Well, assuming that like me you have a gallon of this for household chores like degreasing pots and mopping the floor. 

Heating vinegar stinks and breathing it is not good; also you'll probably toss it in the end. I like to not do that - not that it's expensive, but don't see the point.

I make a pot of boiling water, pour on the blade both sides just enough to get it very hot, and in it goes. When out, I will first neutralize (lukewarm water in the sink, some amount of sodium bicarbonate, a few sprays of glass cleaner), then pour some more of the boiled water onto it, and let air work at it just a few seconds before either washing, or going back into the vinegar jar.

If you don't neutralize first, you'll probably end up with more gunk on the blade than necessary. When it has tamed it can take some boiled water and air and just "fix" the effect completely.

Wasn't aiming for a beauty here, more to see how it would fare on Y. Tanaka for easier care, and no final buffing or anything, but the results are nice:


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## M1k3 (Mar 21, 2021)

If you do it regularly, you have your own 'dippin' container'. If you do decide to reuse it, don't use it for going into your body. Unless you're weird and like your food to have an off, metallic taste it


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## ModRQC (Mar 21, 2021)

It was what I meant by « assuming you have a gallon for household chores ».


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## captaincaed (Mar 21, 2021)

I'm willing to sacrifice $5 in vinegar, then use it to clean toilet bowls.


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## captaincaed (Mar 21, 2021)

Getting a clean 800 grit satin finish. Nothing but one -way even pulls seems to save any time in the long run. Any scrubbing at these finishing grits leaves j-hooks that take longer to remove. Powered buffing pads also leave deep scratches deeper than the grit suggests, making me go backwards in grit.

Learning how to roll half a cork covered in paper to get clean pulls and erase hard to reach blemishes near the tip.




I've now gone 800 both directions so I'm confident all scratches are the same depth and grit. Whew.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 21, 2021)

Looks nice!


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## ian (Mar 21, 2021)

I patinaed some customer knives last night in a mix of coffee, red wine vinegar and ferric chloride. 

Edit: this is not a recommended combination or anything. More like “Let’s try coffee!” “Too slow, I’m impatient!” “Let’s add vinegar!” “Too slow I’m impatient!” “Let’s add ferric chloride and boil it!” “There we go!”


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## ModRQC (Mar 21, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I'm willing to sacrifice $5 in vinegar, then use it to clean toilet bowls.



That’s the spirit!


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## ModRQC (Mar 21, 2021)

ian said:


> I patinaed some customer knives last night in a mix of coffee, red wine vinegar and ferric chloride.
> 
> Edit: this is not a recommended combination or anything. More like “Let’s try coffee!” “Too slow, I’m impatient!” “Let’s add vinegar!” “Too slow I’m impatient!” “Let’s add ferric chloride and boil it!” “There we go!”



Coffee etching is slow, like overnight. Vinegar is something like 10-30 mins depending on what is sought exactly.


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## captaincaed (Mar 21, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Coffee etching is slow, like overnight. Vinegar is something like 10-30 mins depending on what is sought exactly.


I've had good luck with coffee in 15-20"


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## ModRQC (Mar 21, 2021)

Are we talking etching or forcing a patina?


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## captaincaed (Mar 21, 2021)

Forced patina, same thing Ian was talking about. I make it a habit not to have damascus, so I don't have any experience there. Only exceptions are Yoshi SKD11 and Bazes, but that last is entire by coincidence.


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## ian (Mar 21, 2021)

I’m too poor to own a jug big enough to immerse a blade in, so I use the “pour boiling acidic liquid down the blade while I hold it over a pan” method.


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## cotedupy (Mar 21, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> The most effective strategy to reduce this ambiguity is to alternate angles every other grit. If your polish strokes are always parallel, you will have a hard time detecting when you have removed the previous grit.
> 
> Instead, do 400 grit at 45 degrees, then do 1000 grit at -45 degrees and so on. This makes it much easier to see when you are ready for the next grit



Ah yeah... I've _not_ been doing this. Sounds a sensible plan!


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## cotedupy (Mar 21, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> About hot vinegar, here's a take: instead of heating it and probably disposing of it, get a large enough jar filled with it to soak the blade, do not heat it, and pour it back into the jug when done. Well, assuming that like me you have a gallon of this for household chores like degreasing pots and mopping the floor.
> 
> Heating vinegar stinks and breathing it is not good; also you'll probably toss it in the end. I like to not do that - not that it's expensive, but don't see the point.
> 
> ...



This is quite a nice result isn't it! I shall have to try this method...


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## captaincaed (Mar 22, 2021)

Second side finished




What I've learned so far:

Pick a line parallel or perpendicular to the blade and follow it, or you get curvy lines that look terrible
Heel to tip one-way draws only, anything else ends in re-work
Start all draws under the heel or on the tang
For blue steel, reversing the scratch pattern _at the same grit_ on _one side _of the blade takes _one hour_
90% is done in the first half hour, 99% is done in 45 minutes, and the last scratch takes the final 15 minutes
Robin was right about micro concavities - you'll find one
Start with a Nick Wheeler-style stick, then switch to a half-cork to get into those concave areas
Start each section of sandpaper with light pressure on the harder (non-hamon) steel, then as it looses its tooth, apply slightly heavier pressure. Extends the life of the paper.
When that feels like it's shot, use the same section of paper on the softer hamon, and it will still cut for a while
Move your section of sandpaper after every 5 passes or so (5 on hard steel, 5 on hamon). Any more and you're loosing too much efficiency
Sand dry, use Rhynowet
Use paper like it don't cost money
Look at the next 5 grits in front of you, calculate timing, and realize that satin finishes look pretty good
Curse the heavens because the handle doesn't reinstall straight
You will round the tip, and curse again
Put down fresh blue shop towel every time you clamp the blade down to the board, or it WILL pick up a piece of grit and make you go back and sand again. And curse
The edge is sharp. Oh is it sharp. You might curse.


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## ian (Mar 22, 2021)

Looks great. You got a lot of contrast on the hamon for a sandpaper finish. Btw, how are you holding the cork / sandpaper? Are you clamping down the blade and using two hands with the sandpaper wrapped around the cork? Or one handed?


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## captaincaed (Mar 22, 2021)

ian said:


> Looks great. You got a lot of contrast on the hamon for a sandpaper finish. Btw, how are you holding the cork / sandpaper? Are you clamping down the blade and using two hands with the sandpaper wrapped around the cork? Or one handed?


Thanks man. My shoulders kill.

I have a plank of wood in a vise, and the blade clamped to that with a c-clamp on the tang. Fresh blue towel between the blade and the wood each time I flip sides.

I'm using a Nick Wheeler stick with a piece of cork for most of the work, then a half-cork in hand for the final 20-30" getting all the concavities and little problem areas worked out. 

For the stick, I'm holding paper with one hand and applying pressure with the other. For the small cork piece, both hands on the cork, just feathering things in. Limiting to an hour a day.


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## cotedupy (Mar 22, 2021)

One other tip... spent high grit sandpaper is _very_ good for buffing wood/horn on a handle, so don't chuck it out if you want to do that


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## captaincaed (Mar 22, 2021)

Nice thanks!


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## MarcelNL (Mar 22, 2021)

BTW; is there any particular coffee to look for? I anticipate that third wave light roast battery acid does best for etching? I have some Guatemala greens I could roast to a cinnamonny color to be sour as heck


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## M1k3 (Mar 22, 2021)

MarcelNL said:


> BTW; is there any particular coffee to look for? I anticipate that third wave light roast battery acid does best for etching? I have some Guatemala greens I could roast to a cinnamonny color to be sour as heck


Cheap instant coffee.


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## MarcelNL (Mar 22, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Cheap instant coffee.


that crap has a Hausverbot...same as office coffee, although, once upon a time I did work in an office where they had a full espresso bar with an award winning Barista


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Mar 22, 2021)

I used Taster's Choice


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## captaincaed (Mar 22, 2021)

Nescafe dark roast, try to make it so concentrated it won't dissolve in cold water. Basically a whole jar of crystals in about a liter of water. So says Mareko on his podcast.

I'll have to hunt for the exact recipe he uses. It ain't expensive or rocket science, but dilute and cold means longer time to etch. You can play around until it works how you like. 

Also, let dry completely in air before wiping it down. For some reason that helps the finish "cure". 

Finally, the sanded finish can't be too fine at the end or the finish becomes blotchy. I think you want to max out around 1500 grit if I remember right. Robin just recommended 800, with some fresh swipes with new, sharp sheets just before etch.


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## captaincaed (Mar 22, 2021)

How to Etch Stainless and Carbon Damascus Steel - Balbachdamast South Africa


7 Step process for etching your stainless and carbon damascus steels to achieve flawless results. With tips renowned South African knifemakers and bladesmiths.




www.balbachdamast.co.za


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## MarcelNL (Mar 22, 2021)

when I get to the stage of doing this I'll use the 'instant' espresso that forms crystals in the drip tray of the Urania!


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## Nagakin (Mar 22, 2021)

Have you tried using a mousepad as backing? They have a lot of give and you can use a good amount of pressure to get the concave spots and tip really well, IME. I usually start with balsa and finish using the mousepad with felt under the blade for support (mistakes have been made ). Something like this: 



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0875L32GY/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_GF6QJSWGETGC6Y1DXDD3





ian said:


> I’m too poor to own a jug big enough to immerse a blade in, so I use the “pour boiling acidic liquid down the blade while I hold it over a pan” method.


I like dry spaghetti containers. Cheap, tall and airtight.


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## ian (Mar 22, 2021)

Nagakin said:


> I like dry spaghetti containers. Cheap, tall and airtight.



That's an interesting idea.


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## captaincaed (Mar 22, 2021)

Nagakin said:


> Have you tried using a mousepad as backing? They have a lot of give and you can use a good amount of pressure to get the concave spots and tip really well, IME. I usually start with balsa and finish using the mousepad with felt under the blade for support (mistakes have been made ). Something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a great tip. God so many mistakes


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## Luftmensch (Mar 23, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Second side finished



Looking really good. Nice job!

Exacting satin finishes are underrated. A 'perfect' finish requires a lot of patience and attention



captaincaed said:


> ...
> 90% is done in the first half hour, 99% is done in 45 minutes, and the last scratch takes the final 15 minutes
> ...
> Look at the next 5 grits in front of you, calculate timing, and realize that satin finishes look pretty good
> ...



Haha! How is the thesis going?




captaincaed said:


> Move your section of sandpaper after every 5 passes or so (5 on hard steel, 5 on hamon). Any more and you're loosing too much efficiency
> Sand dry, use Rhynowet
> Use paper like it don't cost money



I havent tried special sandpaper. I am sure Rhyowet is excellent. It is a little pricer and less accessible than common brands. In your value judgement, is it worth pursuing?

I use Flexovit (owned by Saint-Gobain) wet and dry - it is ubiquitous at our hardware chains. It is a good balance between affordable and effective. That makes it easier to use it "like it don't cost money"... You are right.... Over working sandpaper is an easy mistake to make (particularly for beginners). Your time is worth, far, far more than the paper!!




captaincaed said:


> God so many mistakes



So many skills acquired and lessons learned!


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## captaincaed (Mar 23, 2021)

Hey thanks for the encouragement. I'm mostly comparing Rhyo to various Norton and 3M papers, and it beats those out for me. Probably 20-50% more life. Cubitron is great and hard wearing for wood but generally rougher than metal finishing grits. I went with rhyo for consistency all the way up the ladder to 2500. 

And the thesis is chugging along. Slowly! This is my morning coffee groove before my brain turns on.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 23, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I'm mostly comparing Rhyo to various Norton and 3M papers, and it beats those out for me. Probably 20-50% more life.



Good to know. Now that I think about it, I have only ever used sandpaper on sanmai. Flexovit is probably about equivalent to regular Norton and 3M paper - on softer cladding it is effective _enough_. It is likely it less effective on harder monosteels and honyaki. Either way, I'll should give something from the indasa rhyno product line a try!




captaincaed said:


> And the thesis is chugging along.



Nice one! Keep at it


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## captaincaed (Mar 23, 2021)

If anyone in the US wants to try it, Texas Farrier Supply sells individual sheets by mail.


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## DDCarter (Mar 25, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Second side finished
> 
> 
> 
> ...





INSANE


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## captaincaed (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks brother. This would take another 10 hours to mirror-finish by hand. I see where the price comes from.


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