# Jnats for edge vs polish



## wbusby1 (Dec 21, 2017)

Hi y'all,
Something I just don't get is how most people on the forums here seem to be buying jnats specifically for the polishing finish they leave on wide bevels--or at least that always seems a major factor in their judgement of the stone quality. 

However, in all my experience with jnats (I have used quite a few of various hardness, relative particle size, muddiness etc) is: jnats almost always leave a better, more complex, long-lasting edge than synthetics. However, if you want a classic kasumi of shiny/sem-mirror core and matte/cloudy cladding, then synthetics are the way to go. Most of my synthetics leave a very even dark, matte finish on the cladding and a super clean, shiny finish on the core steel. Most of my jnats don't even come close to this, the kasumi or difference between the metals is much less pronounced. Now I've never used an uchigumori but from all the pics I've seen from beautiful polishes from jnats on KKF, I can get a stronger kasumi with a synthetic in what I'm assuming is way less time. 

I understand if it's just about using jnats as an art form, I prefer to use them too honestly. However if a strong kasumi is the priority, one should just stick to synthetic, no?

KKF has given me the impression that many people here are using & valuing jnats for their kasumi finishes and not their edges and this seems way backwards to me. :scratchhead:


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## cheflivengood (Dec 21, 2017)

What synthetic are you using for a "better" finish than a natural.


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## StonedEdge (Dec 21, 2017)

wbusby1 said:


> However if a strong kasumi is the priority, one should just stick to synthetic, no?



I've had the complete opposite experience you've had regarding Kasumi finishes and synthetics. All of my synthetic stones except King800X leave jigane and hagane with the same finish with no contrast (mostly Naniwa Chosera).

I thought I knew what a Kasumi finish was supposed to look like until I started messing with j nats and fingerstones. Now I know. 

There's no rules tho, they're just rocks. You can use them for the edge they leave or polish they achieve, or both.

Mind you, some stones are more geared towards leaving a super nice edge versus a super nice contrasting or mirror polish and vice versa.


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## nutmeg (Dec 21, 2017)

wbusby1 said:


> However, if you want a classic kasumi of shiny/sem-mirror core and matte/cloudy cladding, then synthetics are the way to go. Most of my synthetics leave a very even dark, matte finish on the cladding and a super clean, shiny finish on the core steel. Most of my jnats don't even come close to this, the kasumi or difference between the metals is much less pronounced. Now I've never used an uchigumori but from all the pics I've seen from beautiful polishes from jnats on KKF, I can get a stronger kasumi with a synthetic in what I'm assuming is way less time.
> 
> I understand if it's just about using jnats as an art form, I prefer to use them too honestly. However if a strong kasumi is the priority, one should just stick to synthetic, no?
> 
> KKF has given me the impression that many people here are using & valuing jnats for their kasumi finishes and not their edges and this seems way backwards to me. :scratchhead:



this is something Id like to see. What synth stones do you use?

I find synth give a shiny edge but kind of plastic/boring looking, probably because of too soft.
About cloudy cladding I never found any synth that equals say the weakest uchigumori stone.


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## tripleq (Dec 21, 2017)

If this is what you are experiencing the only thing I can think of is that you have won the synthetic lottery or you've had some bad luck with naturals. Care to share some pics?


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## StonedEdge (Dec 21, 2017)

+3 regarding your synthetic stone kasumi progression


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## K813zra (Dec 21, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> +3 regarding your synthetic stone kasumi progression



+4

I have synthetic stones that give me a fair "working" kasumi but not what I would call a great one by any means. That is not to say that I don't have naturals that give a crappy kasumi because I do! But even a rougher finish from my Binsui gives me a decent kasumi. Nothing like a good Uchi though. Monzen-to gives a good rougher Kasumi too. Decent compromise Awase-to are the likes of Takashima, Oouchi, Hideriyama, Lv 2.5-3 Atago, soft(ish) Ohira Iromono/Akane etc. I have had loads of stones that give a good kasumi. Natural ones, that is. Synthetic, not so much.

One thing to keep in mind is that getting that finish takes time and practice. I have seen people get a better finish off of the same stone that I own, not from the same mine, the same damn stone (bought used) than I can. People like Nutmeg, Dwalker, Badger and quite a few others make it look easy...lol. 

Anyway, I am a big fan of Naka-to and most of them don't give the best cosmetic finish on a wide bevel. However, as you said, they give wicked results on a narrow bevel. The edge is "unique". Bite and refinement that one would not expect to go together. One thing to do is to try using them after a finer synthetic. Sometimes I find that naturals don't have the ass to remove deeper "hidden" scratches. If used after a finer synthetic they do still give that unique natural finish.


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## GorillaGrunt (Dec 21, 2017)

+5 for what synthetics do you use?

Im just getting into naturals and polishing, but I dont have any synthetics above the medium Kings (800 and Hyper 1k) that leave good contrast. That said, those stones give better contrast than what I can do with my Aoto. The technique I havent tried yet is polishing to mirror or nearly so with synthetics or even paper and then finishing with fingerstones or a single fine natural.


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## wbusby1 (Dec 21, 2017)

Wow, I was not expecting this response! Now I'm worried that I have no idea what kasumi means or that I'm missing something :scared4:

Pretty much all my synthetics leave a decent kasumi, some better than others, but generally all better than my jnats. My best jnats for kasumi are maybe my hideriyama and natsuya but my JNS 1K outdoes the natsuya at a comparable grit and my kitayama 8k outdoes the hideriyama (though barely) at comparable grit/refinement.

This morning I was doing a quick/sloppy repair & clean up job for a coworker's kiritsuke (JNS300, Chosera600, Naniwa"GreenBrick"2K) Spent about 2 minutes each on the 600 & 2K. I was planning on polishing it more with a jnat but was then like "eff it, it'll just look worse/ less dramatic and will take a while" So I just kept it and refined the edge with a thai white binsui and then khao men.















Sorry my phone has a crappy camera!


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## tripleq (Dec 21, 2017)

Well, that's not so bad. It's tough to see much detail in the pics but it looks like you might need to pay more attention to keeping your pressure even and maintaining your angles. This is important for kasumi finishes. I find it useful to polish a little higher than what my finisher will give before going to it and it does help to use a stone that makes a lot of mud, synthetic or natural. Start with a strong pressure to build some mud and then lighten up on the pressure keeping it even through the rest of the finish. I find most naturals a little more finicky when it comes to water so that might be part of the puzzle too. I think with practice you'll get better results from naturals.


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## RDalman (Dec 22, 2017)

Wbusby, i agree with you and your experience, mine the same. The best strong contrast kasumi is from synths. That's usually a "working finish". I mean "appearance" strong contrast for most folks, not the superrefined kasumi some like to geek out with here


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## Krassi (Dec 30, 2017)

Interesting.

Well kitayama does a nice finish and feels like a uchigumori, but i got such a big range of jnats that work much better. and also with different looks. Full sandblast cloudy, super high skalpel contrast polished and cloudy, polished and dark cloudy.. well a lot of different looks.
well its cool if synthetics work great too but many jnats make a more spectacular result.c

But best way is Kitayama first to iron out any scratches left and then a jnat air strike !


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## Matus (Dec 31, 2017)

RDalman said:


> Wbusby, i agree with you and your experience, mine the same. The best strong contrast kasumi is from synths. That's usually a "working finish". I mean "appearance" strong contrast for most folks, not the superrefined kasumi some like to geek out with here



This.

No natural stone is going to give a cladding as dark as a soft 400 or 800 stone like Gesshin, HNS or King,or even medium grit stones can do. But unfortunately that is also not the kind of finish I would consider refined or attractive. It looks great for WTS threads though as the finer, more reflecting finished are much harder to photograph.


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## geoff_nocon (Dec 31, 2017)

As much as i love my Jnats. You can still get a very refined kasumi finish by using synthetics and just fingerstones. Just get a mirror finish on the core using your synths followed by uchi fingerstones. Here just used shapton 8k and fingerstones


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## K813zra (Dec 31, 2017)

geoff_nocon said:


> As much as i love my Jnats. You can still get a very refined kasumi finish by using synthetics and just fingerstones. Just get a mirror finish on the core using your synths followed by uchi fingerstones. Here just used shapton 8k and fingerstones



Sounds like you are still using a J-nat to me, just a small one...:biggrin: Don't think I have ever seen synthetic finger stones.


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## geoff_nocon (Jan 1, 2018)

i mean dont need a full sized jnat. fingerstones are pretty cheap and easy to use


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## Matus (Jan 1, 2018)

I take what I said above 90% back. I have seen a finish Robin put on a sanmai puukko style blade with King 800. 

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1785202781778555?view=permalink&id=1819304691701697


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## Badgertooth (Jan 15, 2018)

I think it might come as a surprise that Im defending the OPs assertion but hes 100% correct. You can get one hell of a kasumi finish from synthetics. It is very dependant on the stones though and your skills on the stones.
If I go Bester 400 > King 800 > King Hyper 1k > Takenoko Im going to get a dark and consistent finish.



Here also is Robert Trimarchis synthetic finish

https://instagram.com/p/Bc0vzH_lSPz/

This is significant as he has very much drunk the Natural Finish koolaid. 

You dont need naturals. But what they do offer is nuance - Bester 400 > King 800 > King Hyper 1k > Takenoko is going to do the same thing across a lot of things. A progression of naturals from the middle grits up is going to do very different things across different knives, perhaps show hada and banding, perhaps make alternating layers in wrought iron pop relative to each other, perhaps bring up clouds, perhaps mirror, perhaps sandblast, perhaps amplify the coalescence of carbon migrations and clumpings in different claddings. Its the perhaps which, philosophically, is exciting. Its exciting that it can give you a window into an aspect of the knifes character, that may well have gone unwitnessed.





- Bester 400 > King 800 > King Hyper 1k > Takenoko is also going to do what it does in 20mins if you push it. A full natural polish is meditative and you dont want it to end after 20mins. It speaks to that Taoist concept of a Wu Wei state, a non-doing doing that is effortless and connecting to the deepest layers of yourself and your external world through an often repetitive task. It speaks to the doing and the process being virtuous in and of themselves. Now that weve got the fluff out the way, I also completely understand that you dont have the luxury of deeper connection and tapping into philosophical fugue-states, mid-service, when your edge are running and bouncing on pepper skins and you dont give a monkeys how it looks relative to the cladding. Synthetics are almost always the answer in this scenario too.



Theres a middle ground too. One of the best finishes I achieved on wrought iron was a tight and thorough progression on synthetics (add chosera 3k into the stones I listed) before running over the top of that with a very good suita which just made the uniformity crackle and pop and fizz.. It was lovely.







There.. I defended synthetics.


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

geoff_nocon said:


> As much as i love my Jnats. You can still get a very refined kasumi finish by using synthetics and just fingerstones. Just get a mirror finish on the core using your synths followed by uchi fingerstones. Here just used shapton 8k and fingerstones



Finger stones are jnats , so that response doesnt make any sense ...... and neither does this thread ... sure I can get a pretty good contrast from synthetic. Kasumi refers to the misty looking finish that a jnat leave on a knife ... that will never happen with synthetic stones ever ... and I can get my cladding nice a dark with jnats as well ...... if you guy dont believe me , have a look at my Instagram page ..... @*********


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

I can go shapton glass 500- red aoto - Shoubu suita and be done


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

https://instagram.com/p/Bd0bGlVFT4J/


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

https://instagram.com/p/BdMDEpaFQV7/


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

https://instagram.com/p/BdGbF5IFA6H/


These have a kasumi misty finish with some of the best contrast Ive seen , finished on jnats


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## Wdestate (Jan 15, 2018)

ill never understand you polishing nuts.


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

Whats not to understand?


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

https://instagram.com/p/Bc-ysKHFJQy/


Jnats


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

wbusby1 said:


> Wow, I was not expecting this response! Now I'm worried that I have no idea what kasumi means or that I'm missing something :scared4:
> 
> Pretty much all my synthetics leave a decent kasumi, some better than others, but generally all better than my jnats. My best jnats for kasumi are maybe my hideriyama and natsuya but my JNS 1K outdoes the natsuya at a comparable grit and my kitayama 8k outdoes the hideriyama (though barely) at comparable grit/refinement.
> 
> ...



I can tell this was finished on synthetic, mainly because you cladding sloppy ... which is one of the main drawl backs of using synthetic for polishing . 

Here a synthetic finish 

You can see the difference ... more shiny not misty ...


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## Wdestate (Jan 15, 2018)

Bigkev2828 said:


> Whats not to understand?



a. that you care enough to do it hah 
b. that you care enough to split hairs (pun intended) over a dark contrast vs "misty" contrast. 

if someone things it looks better with synths then jnats cool, its an opinion.


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## geoff_nocon (Jan 15, 2018)

Bigkev2828 said:


> Finger stones are jnats , so that response doesnt make any sense ...... and neither does this thread ... sure I can get a pretty good contrast from synthetic. Kasumi refers to the misty looking finish that a jnat leave on a knife ... that will never happen with synthetic stones ever ... and I can get my cladding nice a dark with jnats as well ...... if you guy dont believe me , have a look at my Instagram page ..... @*********



My point is that you dont need to buy jnats(full size) and spend a lot of money(assuming its the OPs concern)to get a refined kasumi finish(not just contrast-mirror on core and dark cladding). And i think this thread does make sense as pointed out by other members, it is possible to get a working kasumi finish on just synths if what your after is just contrast and uniformity.


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## K813zra (Jan 15, 2018)

Wdestate said:


> a. that you care enough to do it hah
> b. that you care enough to split hairs (pun intended) over a dark contrast vs "misty" contrast.
> 
> if someone things it looks better with synths then jnats cool, its an opinion.



It is a sickness. It infected me from the very start...lol. Whats worse is that I own specific knives just so that I can polish them on natural stones and do not actually use them often. I do not have a use for them, really. I use a laser in their stay almost every time...:lol2: I like sharpening and polishing much, much more than actually using knives!


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## geoff_nocon (Jan 15, 2018)

Bigkev2828 said:


> I can tell this was finished on synthetic, mainly because you cladding sloppy ... which is one of the main drawl backs of using synthetic for polishing .
> 
> Here a synthetic finish
> 
> ...



You can achieve the same finish with Jnats if you use a stone that doesnt scratch the hagane or if you use a harder jnat say an ohira ao renge on the hagane and go back to an uchigumori to to darken the cladding and it wont alter the finish of the ao renge. So shiny doesnt automatically mean synths.


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

geoff_nocon said:


> i mean dont need a full sized jnat. fingerstones are pretty cheap and easy to use



Still fact are facts and you need a jnat to finish , thats what fingers stones are


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## Wdestate (Jan 15, 2018)

K813zra said:


> It is a sickness. It infected me from the very start...lol. Whats worse is that I own specific knives just so that I can polish them on natural stones and do not actually use them often. I do not have a use for them, really. I use a laser in their stay almost every time...:lol2: I like sharpening and polishing much, much more than actually using knives!



I know ! I have met quite a few of you, I use to think "they get off easy with their addiction just need some stones can't be that much $" then I started seeing the stone collections :tease: wow. Different strokes for different folks I suppose!


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

All Im saying is that contrast and kasumi are really the same thing .... and either way in my opinion jnats can by far achieve a better finish at both ....... this skill relies more in your hands than in the stone.... so if you guys arent getting a good finish with jnats , its most likely user error.... less water maybe . Or the stone maybe too hard . Which always makes them harder to use . And any soft and even most soft corse jnats will leave you great contrast and kasumi .... the only stokes Ive found that you can finish on synthetic is the naniwa superstore 3000 ....it leave a very shiny core and cloudy cladding . But its a much much different finish and would not consider it kasumi , just nice contrast with a mirrored edge.... no misty vibes coming out of synthetic


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

geoff_nocon said:


> You can achieve the same finish with Jnats if you use a stone that doesnt scratch the hagane or if you use a harder jnat say an ohira ao renge on the hagane and go back to an uchigumori to to darken the cladding and it wont alter the finish of the ao renge. So shiny doesnt automatically mean synths.



Ill say this again , there is no such thing as the same finish from a synthetic stone a jnats , that ms just not true ... you tell me what finishing synthetic stone give the same finish , and Ill buy it today and see for myself


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## geoff_nocon (Jan 15, 2018)

Bigkev2828 said:


> Ill say this again , there is no such thing as the same finish from a synthetic stone a jnats , that ms just not true ... you tell me what finishing synthetic stone give the same finish , and Ill buy it today and see for myself



I dont think i claimed such a thing. Everyhing i mentioned in my post that you quoted were All JNATS. I was addressing your post showing your takeda in which you only used synth.


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## Bigkev2828 (Jan 15, 2018)

geoff_nocon said:


> You can achieve the same finish with Jnats if you use a stone that doesnt scratch the hagane or if you use a harder jnat say an ohira ao renge on the hagane and go back to an uchigumori to to darken the cladding and it wont alter the finish of the ao renge. So shiny doesnt automatically mean synths.



You said you can achieve same finish with a certain jnat , Im saying you cant , an the finish will be different , but daying it cant be nice a mirror , but it will be different .


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## brooksie967 (Jan 17, 2018)

Not that my interpretation is going to add anything to this conversation but the difference between a "kasumi" knife (aka awase) as in jigane/hagane forge welded together and "kasumi" as in "Mist" IMO is the determining factor. To me the simple presence of contrast doesn't make a kasumi finish. There has to be a mist present that IMO is only able to be produced by jnats. It's the difference between a knife that's been polished on synths or with compounds and has a mirror core from every angle and one polished on jnats that can be a pure mirror from one angle but completely misty from another. Just my thoughts/interpretation and nothing more.

The literal translation of : &#38686; is haze/mist.


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## brooksie967 (Jan 17, 2018)

Here's a quote from So's Site where he gets into knife polishing and the difference between naturals/synthetics: People sometimes ask me if Kasumi finish is a smoky scratchy finish done by a coarse stone. If you look at this photo, it may seem so, but if you look at the below photo, you can see how highly polished it is. This is the magic of the natural stones. No synthetic stone can finish like this. For finishing knives and swords, natural stones are still essential. (http://www.japan-tool.com/hamono/Knife_Polishing/Knife_Polishing.html)


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## Midsummer (Apr 21, 2018)

Badgertooth said:


> You dont need naturals. But what they do offer is nuance - Bester 400 > King 800 > King Hyper 1k > Takenoko is going to do the same thing across a lot of things. A progression of naturals from the middle grits up is going to do very different things across different knives, perhaps show hada and banding, perhaps make alternating layers in wrought iron pop relative to each other, perhaps bring up clouds, perhaps mirror, perhaps sandblast, perhaps amplify the coalescence of carbon migrations and clumpings in different claddings. Its the perhaps which, philosophically, is exciting. Its exciting that it can give you a window into an aspect of the knifes character, that may well have gone unwitnessed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In defending synthetics you elevated the value of J-nats and provided a deep understanding of human nature/ experience- Who would have expected in a knife forum that this level of insight into human nature would be expressed.... Thank you for taking the time to give us that. Bravo!


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## Badgertooth (Apr 21, 2018)

Haha, erm, yep,
I sort of forgot about this post.. I had definitely had a beer or two


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## K813zra (Apr 21, 2018)

Badgertooth said:


> Haha, erm, yep,
> I sort of forgot about this post.. I had definitely had a beer or two



Have another!


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## nutmeg (Apr 22, 2018)

I guess we are not comparing true kasumi here but pictures of kasumi taken with cellular phones. Differences in the real world are greater.
Ok, some soft synth can give a whitish clad, mirror core and if you take the picture with the correct angle, good light and a poor camera, it can compete with a Jnat set.
To me the synth mirror looks more plastic and featureless, the clad hasn't the same matt surface and the contrast with texture is very different.


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## DanielC (Jan 8, 2020)

#Necro

Hi!

Naturals.


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## Xenif (Jan 8, 2020)

This is actually a great necro thread, lots of great info and insight into poishing. I realised now I didn't understand many of the intricacies of polish when reading this.

Also, jnats rule


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## valgard (Jan 8, 2020)

DanielC said:


> #Necro
> 
> Hi!
> 
> ...


That's such a badass polish Daniel!


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## XooMG (Jan 8, 2020)

It may sound superficially agreeable or vapid, but what satisfies one person in a polish might not be the thing that satisfies another.

I have had to give up most of my polishing due to skin problems, but I still do a little bit and occasionally share on social media. With my limited opportunity and limited output, I can feel a few compulsions:

Use recognizable Japanese natural stones and relatively high finishes to maintain superficial credibility and not feel "lazy"
Use synthetics or non-Japanese stones to challenge the "Jnat" hegemony and encourage personal exploration and focus on execution
Do coarser practical finishes and challenge the idea that the only good scratches are invisible scratches
Juggle between high and low contrast
In that tug of war, I don't get much room to assert preferences. I'm not sure my preferences are fixed enough to be asserted anyway. Folks will have to judge on their own with factors introducing bias:

Exclusivity from cost and rarity of equipment
Exclusivity from skill and time investment
Distinctive appearance, revealing features of iron/steel
Subtlety and restraint, austerity
Practicality, reproducibility, accessibility
Perceived personality/attitude of a finish and how it matches a blade
Romantic notions of process and connectedness to nature, tradition, &c.
When Alex Bazes sent me some kiridashi with a synthetic finish, I think he was surprised by the praise I gave him for the job he did. I too worry about disappointing people any time a finish from me ends up in someone else's hands, and I'm lined up with excuses and apologies for not meeting whatever standard they had. Would be nice to not worry so much.


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## DanielC (Jan 9, 2020)

valgard said:


> That's such a badass polish Daniel!



Thanks Cev!


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## XooMG (Jan 9, 2020)

Please ignore the edge with chips and stuff...I was trying to see if I could put a nice polish on wrought iron cladding with a Cerax 3k.


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## childermass (Jan 9, 2020)

XooMG said:


> Please ignore the edge with chips and stuff...I was trying to see if I could put a nice polish on wrought iron cladding with a Cerax 3k.



you obviously could, looks awesome!


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## brooksie967 (Jan 9, 2020)

XooMG said:


> Please ignore the edge with chips and stuff...I was trying to see if I could put a nice polish on wrought iron cladding with a Cerax 3k.



How long did you let the water sit on it before drying it off?


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## XooMG (Jan 9, 2020)

brooksie967 said:


> How long did you let the water sit on it before drying it off?


The slurry from that stone was pretty reactive, so it wouldn't sit idle long before rust starts to run out of control. Had to keep it moving in slurry with short strokes to balance between oxide buildup and the abrasive grinding it away (I think the Cerax is kind of aggressive but don't have many stones to compare).


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## XooMG (Jan 9, 2020)

childermass said:


> you obviously could, looks awesome!


 Thanks. I'm not advocating the strongly oxidized look or any particular stone, but if what you have is stone XYZ and you're going to try to polish with it, you might as well explore a bit and get varied outcomes. I'm no expert so I'm sure better results can be had by more diligent, more competent polishers.


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## Carl Kotte (Jan 9, 2020)

I’m in the process of refining my munetoshi Gyuto (inspired by @Xenif). I’ve barely scratched the surface. But when I saw this thread I came to think of doing this. First picture, quick work on Suehiro rika 5k.




Second picture, the other side of the knife with an unknown jnat bought from @childermass




The contrast is much deeper from the suehiro. But the same goes for the scratches [emoji16]
Disclaimer: I’m terrible at polishing


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## brooksie967 (Jan 9, 2020)

XooMG said:


> The slurry from that stone was pretty reactive, so it wouldn't sit idle long before rust starts to run out of control. Had to keep it moving in slurry with short strokes to balance between oxide buildup and the abrasive grinding it away (I think the Cerax is kind of aggressive but don't have many stones to compare).



The dance between clarity and detail is always a battle or at least I find it to be. Would be interested to see the difference , side by side, of this stone vs. another with different composition. I've definitely seen a variety in detail based on which stone I finish on and how reactive the slurry is. Water source is different too obviously. Softened water vs hard vs distilled seems to provide a variety of different finishes too.


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## XooMG (Jan 11, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> I’m in the process of refining my munetoshi Gyuto (inspired by @Xenif). I’ve barely scratched the surface. But when I saw this thread I came to think of doing this. First picture, quick work on Suehiro rika 5k.
> 
> Second picture, the other side of the knife with an unknown jnat bought from @childermass
> 
> ...


I think you're doing fine. For the most part, people apply more of a grinding technique when they're on synthetic stones, and that same technique seems to produce less obvious scratches from many natural stones. I think it can be healthy to try and explore both grinding and polishing methods with each stone.

If you look at the pic I posted above with the Cerax 3k, it is rather different from an early finish I did with it a while back on another knife:




I don't have that many synthetics so I rarely use them to polish, but I like having a general idea of what I can do with them, and I like knowing if the kinds of finish they produce can have their own charm without necessarily being compared to a natural stone finish.

Natural stones produce different finishes too when different techniques are used. For example, the following two videos are both with the same stone on the same knife.

First polish heavily oxidized the surface to produce texture and then slightly burnished the peaks.

The next one was a bit more uniform, shiny, and brighter.

I don't think there's any problem with preferring one over the other. Just finish the way you like your knives to be.


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## DanielC (Jan 11, 2020)

I snagged a suita from the OP. This is the contrast I got off of stainless jacket sanmai. I mean, that looks almost synthetic, except there are some subtle metallurgical effects in the steel that were not present in the 3k synthetic I was using before laying a new (albeit quick) scratch pattern down with this 4-6k suita.


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## DanielC (Jan 11, 2020)

Then a finer, harder 8k Narutaki Suita. Again, pretty quick, just to see and show an appreciable amount of contrast.


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## Carl Kotte (Jan 11, 2020)

@XooMG Thanks for the encouragement! That means a lot. And thanks for the examples and explanations. Very cool!


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## DanielC (Jan 12, 2020)

600 grit Nubatama Platinum lastnight, lolol.


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## XooMG (Jan 12, 2020)

I had to redo the 3k finish on the Dalman utility knife after fixing the edge, so I took an underexposed video in a style similar to my previous ones:

I may still polish it up finer if I don't start using it and scratching it up again right away.


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## XooMG (Jan 18, 2020)

Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread.

I decided to record a couple synthetic finishes to see if I could capture some of their character.

First is what I think of when I think of a typical "synthetic finish": Naniwa Super Stone 5k.


There are finer stones that have similar character (e.g. SS10k). Unlike the coarser stones, the 5k drops the whitish fog of the edge steel and replaces it with a glossy mirror. Scratches can stand out brightly on this surface and in my unskilled hands are inevitable (even with the 10k), so keeping them mostly even and consistent is important for a nice finish.

I then tried an artificial suita which is somewhere in the 5-6k range.

It's one of those stones, like the Morihei 9k, that produces a slightly milkier edge steel, though still closer to a mirror (I got a whiter finish with heavy grinding technique, but it started to gloss up a little from polishing).

Then I went with a fairly well-known natural stone (Aizu) to create a more stereotypical "natural" finish.

I spent a bit less time on the naturals because I was tired and because I didn't want to chase down the stray scratches that were a bit more of a headache with the synthetic stones. My laziness and lack of perfectionism are reasons I often use the lower-grit naturals; imperfections are a bit less glaring.

Then I rushed a bit to get a result with my soft muddy hakka.

More work would be needed to clean it up fully but I ran out of time. Nevertheless, I think they are fair examples of natural finish counterparts to my 5-6k synthetics. I posted most of these on my IG but compression really kills them in my opinion.


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## Carl Kotte (Jan 18, 2020)

Thanks @XooMG this is really interesting! [emoji1303]


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## Xenif (Jan 18, 2020)

I've really been enjoying reading everyone's polishing experience. 

Never be afraid to go back and retry a stone, as skill sets grow a little bit, you may find certian stones to be more/less appealing. Try them with new techniques and look at them from a new perspective. I think really half the fun (and frustration) comes from discovering new stones and new techniques to use them


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## brooksie967 (Jan 18, 2020)

XooMG said:


> Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread.
> 
> I decided to record a couple synthetic finishes to see if I could capture some of their character.
> 
> ...




You mentioned scratches stand out brightly on the surface. In your opinion, where are the scratches from? Just from personal experience (not with your exact stones but similar) that when going to stones that give this eye catching wet mirror look that it's the stone itself that does it. I've got a fair bit of time with the SS 10k - To this day i think it gives the 'wettest' or 'glossiest' mirror out there but it's always left scratches behind. The stone from JKI that Kevin uses does the same. They're great for lighting tricks or pictures from certain angles. Perhaps it's something in the manufacturing process? I know they filter abrasive but perhaps it's more about how the abrasive is laying in the stone or something - i don't know i'm rambling but there might be something to it?


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## XooMG (Jan 18, 2020)

brooksie967 said:


> You mentioned scratches stand out brightly on the surface. In your opinion, where are the scratches from? Just from personal experience (not with your exact stones but similar) that when going to stones that give this eye catching wet mirror look that it's the stone itself that does it. I've got a fair bit of time with the SS 10k - To this day i think it gives the 'wettest' or 'glossiest' mirror out there but it's always left scratches behind. The stone from JKI that Kevin uses does the same. They're great for lighting tricks or pictures from certain angles. Perhaps it's something in the manufacturing process? I know they filter abrasive but perhaps it's more about how the abrasive is laying in the stone or something - i don't know i'm rambling but there might be something to it?


I'm definitely not qualified to speculate, but I agree it's probably in the stone's composition and possibly the physics of its erosion (I only have the 5k and 10k and haven't yet experimented enough to propose any mechanism or culprit)


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## M1k3 (Jan 19, 2020)

@XooMG where did you get the artificial suita?


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## Carl Kotte (Jan 19, 2020)

And @XooMG have you made any vids where you demonstrate how you achieve the different finishes by using different techniques? That would be amazing! [emoji16][emoji1303]


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## XooMG (Jan 19, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> @XooMG where did you get the artificial suita?


Locally, so I'm afraid I can't advise on where to get it. It should be the same stone as the Sigma Power Ceramic 6000, but I'm not positive.


Carl Kotte said:


> And @XooMG have you made any vids where you demonstrate how you achieve the different finishes by using different techniques? That would be amazing! [emoji16][emoji1303]


I'm afraid that's a degree of authority I don't want to arrogate, and I don't really have any way to set up video for it anyway. A bit of experimentation should be able to produce results like I posted without too much difficulty.


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