# Review: Sukenari AS 225mm Gyuto



## ModRQC (Aug 14, 2021)

_Following my last review came a comment from a good KKF member who found himself in doubt about my specs behind the edge (the 1mm BTE measurement precisely). In his sense, mine were too low. He said this from an understandable perspective: more than a few knives I tried he also tried, and also took measurements of. His seemed to consistently be about 0.1mm thicker._

*Now, anyone not interested in such a discussion as it arises here can immediately skip to the real Sukenari foreword following the asterisks.*

_Convergence is always an interesting happenstance of life. As this member made that comment, I had the present Sukenari on its way from KnS, and I had my former Hitohira Tanaka Yohei slowly making its way to its new owner in UK. Indeed, I first started to report BTE measurements when I introduced the specs grid in December 2020 for the consecutive reviews of two knives I had bought at the same time from the same vendor: one a Kawamura Y. Tanaka W#1, one a Sukenari SG2._

_https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/review-kawamura-y-tanaka-gyuto.50849/_

_https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/review-sukenari-sg2-k-tip.50893/_

_I can clearly remember for the Kawamura review that I wanted to explain how measurements were taken for the sakes of transparency. Then I had told myself: “No one will care about all this – it just gives a ballpark”. So I went with a few precisions underneath the specs grid instead. You can see those in the reviews above, but even that I eventually dismissed at one point, for about the same reasons I had discarded a full explanation of the specs grid when I introduced it.

Now I think is time for me to lay down a few things about my measurements – precisely for sakes of transparency. I’m not trying to prove a point. He may be right, and everybody may think I’m doing this wrong after this, but I’d rather stick with my ways of measuring since these have now covered quite a few blades from quite a few makers – so they are consistent across all reviews for sure. I also have a few reasons to believe my caliper is quite alright with most measurements, cheap as it is._

Une image vaut mille mots_ – so there you are for the most sensitive measurement:_








_What I do is really simple and was devised in a way that would work for all knives AND would always represent an equal distance from the apex. Back when I started taking these measurements, my Masahiro VC was my most consistent example of a very wide edge bevel on the cutting side for an asymmetrical knife, and it was about 1.5mm wide. And that was from my sharpening, a bit wider than it actually came OOTB. As for the typically symmetrical, typically thin enough knife, the edge bevel would tend to keep around 0.5mm wide. Conclusion: 1.5mm from the apex would work with most knives, and would really represent 1mm above the edge in 95% cases of what I get to review. 

I liked that better than the alternative: always measuring 1mm above the edge bevel however wide it is. My problem with that is that any asymmetrical knife with an acute edge bevel on the cutting side would present with thicker BTE specs than how it would feel in cut and how it would really compare with symmetrical knives there.

Obviously, 5mm up the edge became 6.5mm from the apex, and 10mm up became 11.5mm from the apex. From there, I always take 2-3 measurements at each point, and just went with a formula that would always relativize my measurements – even when we’re talking 0.1mm increments. So if a heel height is 46.74mm, I will use 46 in the grid; and if a spine is 3.28mm thick, I’ll make it 3.2; but if a 10mm to tip measurement is 0.83mm thick, I’ll make it 0.9mm… The main idea is to keep things conservative rather than ideal. 

When BTE measurements are very low, like in the 0.05mm ballpark, the caliper does go bonkers, and that’s when I use <0.1mm. Perhaps those would really be 0.1mm, and 0.1mm would really be 0.2mm with a better caliper. Then again, probably not so much.

All this doesn’t necessarily explain why my BTE measurements would be lower. Well… I don’t think they are problematic in the slightest. Merely logical: if you look at a Yoshikane choil for example and tell me it’s impossible that the last couple millimeters to the apex can’t be 0.1mm thick… I’ll beg to disagree. You could use a choil shot as a scale, marking the point where it is 1mm thick beforehand so it’s visible in the shot, and even the naked eye would easily discern that the immediately BTE segment fits at least ten times in the 1mm thick segment. Many knives however are a bit thicker at the very heel, hence why I use measurements at Heel + 10mm in the grid.

Also, I am not the only one reporting such measurements for known thin BTE knives. On the other hand, one of the arguments laid out to me was that in that member’s experience, 0.1mm and thinner made for brittle edges. Indeed, as you’ll poke about this forum, you will see a LOT of reports of real thin BTE knives like Yoshikane, Takamura and such to have chipping tendencies. There are other factors into play in a chippy OOTB edge, steel being one and quick belt sharpening another for example, but all in all I can’t see how the chipping argument would prove my specs wrong – on the contrary. 

So out of anything much to improve with this system in my mind, I still decided that I should just give an average for BTE measurements from now on, unless a unit presents with interesting taper there from heel to tip – seldom really do. Otherwise, it really is just indicative like a simple choil shot is, and the ballpark average should suffice. 


*****

Our review knife:






From my first review of their SG2 K-Tip unit, I’ll now finally preface this review properly with a point I made back in December, for I think it constitutes an essential benchmark to look at this AS unit:_






« This knife revels in the sheer gusto of its own blandness: the shaping of its everything is just so perfectly well-suited, so brilliantly apt, so welcomingly smoothed and rounded, that it just about feels generic. It’s almost its pitfall, that sort of… hollowness to it. But then you just reach for it, use it, wash it, and not until putting it back to storage do you stop to consider: hey, that went awesomely smooth. »

_That and the pictures – and specs grid (!) – in the review linked above should suffice to sum it up.

_


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## ModRQC (Aug 14, 2021)

*MAKER*​*Sukenari*​*TYPE & LENGTH*​*Gyuto 225mm*​*FINISH & STEEL*​*Hairline Aogami Super*​*WEIGHT / BALANCE*​*191g / +10*​*HANDLE MATERIAL*​*KnS Ebony & Buffalo Horn*​​​TOTAL LENGTH​368​BLADE LENGTH​230​EDGE LENGTH​*216*​​​HEIGHT AT HEEL​*48*​HEIGHT AT MID BLADE​40​HEIGHT 35mm TO TIP​25​​​*SPINE*​*THICKNESS*HEEL​*2.3*​MID BLADE​2.2​35mm TO TIP​1.9​10mm TO TIP​*0.8*​​​*THICKNESS OVER THE EDGE*​@ 10/5/1mm_Average_​1.1 / 0.6 / 0.2​


*Handle: 1/1*
_Fit vs. Balance_

Ideally, I would have liked this knife a bit more blade heavy. I still couldn’t find it a fault – nowhere close. Balance still makes sense there. I don’t remove points for “ideals”. And I really like that handle too: simple as I prefer them, but the extra quality and pretty neat install compared with the generic ones I’m used to see (and almost always feel the need to work on) is welcomed.






*Blade: 0.5/1*
_Acuteness vs. Comfort_

Where acuteness is concerned, Sukenari is still high up there with this blade cut and ground to shape excessively well – just like my SG2 unit was. However, we need to say goodbye to any rounding of the choil or the spine with this AS unit: mine is just square like a 150$ knife. It’s certainly very well finished still, more so than 150$ knives, and sort of smooth enough out of it that I can’t tell of any uncomfortable prep so far – and there were quite a few since I got it.






I thought that the rounding of choil and spine was a given with Sukenari though, so I went to scrutinize KnS pics of their various AS units. Most seem to have had the choil and spine at least chamfered, more often rounded, although it’s difficult to be sure in some cases. One thing of note though: I don’t remember seeing much other 225mm from other vendors/within the various Sukenari lines, so there might be something into this being a special order or something.

* 
Finish: 0.5/1*
_Craft vs. Usage_

Although it’s a bit coarser, a bit less perfected, with a bit of off-angle grinding marks compared to that of the SG2 unit, hairline finish is still nice enough. I don’t ever give full marks for a belt finish anyhow, but at the risk of repeating myself, it’s a pretty good finish where usage goes: it sure is a scratch and fingerprint magnet but it’s non-sticky with food and easy to clean. Also, not much of a pang to the heart when comes the time for serious stone work.







*Grind: 2/2 *
_Geometry vs. Performance_






Like the tip very much, like to work with the knife very much, and the progressive belly works among the best as a flat spot for that length. Need I to remind that I don’t score profile anymore as it’s a personal matter in the end. It’s become an easy favorite – especially with a better edge than OOTB, which was nice but not very consistent. Look at the last pic below and you can easily see how the edge bevel was easily twice as thick at the tip compared to mid blade and heel.

I was drawn to this 225mm unit because it promised over 215mm real edge length. Sukenari edges are a bit Sakai like in that respect, but looking more closely they’re not, really. First, Sukenari are located in Toyama, but it’s hardly the point; second, there’s never a 15mm difference even with longer units; third, the full blade is always about 5mm longer than specs instead of being pretty spot on. They just work with a consistent -10mm at the edge, and get to be 5mm longer blades average because of the longer neck, which is always 15mm long with units I had, and a full machi which I prefer: more space there always translates with a more comfortable grip to me. YMMV.









Geometry is pretty on par with any other Sukenari unit from what I’ve seen in pics or in person. It’s no food release king, but it’s decent, albeit being geared more towards food separation, which I find excellent without being especially thin. It almost looks like a V-grind here, but we can see a bit of convexity on the cutting side, and I’ve not found any of the SG2 or AS units to exhibit the stiction and crappy behavior of strictly V grinds. To date most Sukenari grinds I’ve seen are fairly asymmetrical, although they don’t seem to tend to sharpen them asymmetrically.









I’ve been pretty thrilled with this knife, admittedly. I still don’t know exactly why – nor why I liked the SG2 K-Tip so much even where I wasn’t particularly impressed with SG2 itself. Upon first assessment, this unit came off a bit wrong from the somewhat indifferent F&F compared with the SG2, but in use… I just can’t find fault. The 65HRC Aogami Super is tough enough and holds outstanding potential towards keenness. I could do some finishing work myself, just as well as I could sand down the handle a good bit to get some more forward balance, but as I use the knife it doesn’t ever feel off nor even inferior to many higher end I tried. On the contrary: it feels like the very essential best of those I liked the most.

*Overall Score: 4/5




*


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## ModRQC (Aug 14, 2021)

Personal take: 

So, I couldn’t remove any more points to this knife, but I feel many people would. To me, it’s just what the SG2 was: a knife that, albeit rather unassuming and forgettable, works awesomely smooth and natural in use, throwing the focus off of itself unto the work needed to be done – and here, with a much better steel in my humble opinion. 

I don’t know if you feel like I do sometimes, but some of my knives they sort of weigh on my conscience, either because of the price tag, or because they need more maintenance and carefulness, or both as it often goes hand in hand. I love them, but can’t ever completely go into blissful automatic mode with them. They recall me of whatever more than a tool they inherently are no matter how often I use them. My recent acquisitions have thus been targeted at knives I can completely forget about. Sukenari AS is probably the very price limit I can stomach to at once get what essential higher quality I wanted out of this purchase, at once not shed a single thought about its perennity – or resale value.


The Sharpening Notes

A quick sharpening session told me that much: it is up to the hardness claim, real close to how a TF Mabs feels, albeit in this case there’s also some additional resistance in sharpening, and mostly some additional clinginess in deburring. Not a difficult steel to work with for sure, but not a run of the mill softer carbon core neither. It didn’t come with the most even edge bevelling out of the box, so I had to recut the whole thing. SG500 did good work out of it, but it sure would have been a good deal faster with a lower grit for this kind of work – whereas most softer carbon steels are dealt with fast enough on that stone.

All that said, definitely a pleasant, up to expectations experience. It’s good stuff, and a behavior I mostly entirely recognize from my longer experience sharpening a Deep Impact Gyuto, which I would thus categorize as a darn good cheap offering for high hardened AS steel. The Suke seemed easier to deburr but I’ve improved lengths since the Deep Impact, so probably it’s not.


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## Bart.s (Aug 15, 2021)

Thanks, for again a detailed, beautiful review


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## Jovidah (Aug 15, 2021)

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I think the Gin-3 stamped knives are really the unsung heroes in their lineup. Same geometry / grind to this one, similar handles (and pretty good ones, even the 'normal' octagonal ho wood ones), but signifcantly cheaper than even this AS line. The only real flaw I can find with them is that their tips could have more taper.

FWIW I actually think the 'method' section isn't a bad idea, so people know how to interpret the numbers.


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## madmotts (Aug 15, 2021)

Lots of similar thoughts- I recently bought the hap40 Ktip and that initial feeling of- this is very “bland” knife. Maybe keep the packing box for BST.

The experience was really surprising- What it lacks in appearance really makes up for in both performance and feel. These are wolves in sheep’s clothing or sports cars in a sedans body. Really Well-made knives that are understated (unless dammy) and just perform.


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## tostadas (Aug 15, 2021)

Good stuff my man!


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## ModRQC (Aug 15, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again; I think the Gin-3 stamped knives are really the unsung heroes in their lineup. Same geometry / grind to this one, similar handles (and pretty good ones, even the 'normal' octagonal ho wood ones), but signifcantly cheaper than even this AS line. The only real flaw I can find with them is that their tips could have more taper.
> 
> FWIW I actually think the 'method' section isn't a bad idea, so people know how to interpret the numbers.



While I have nothing against Ginsan, you can get it everywhere, it's generally nicely done (think cheap Futana S3 and you get a perfect sample of the steel) but it never goes higher than 60-61 RC and it likes a toothy edge absolutely. 

Same could be said of S. Tanaka Ginsan: value line but then again I'd always pay a bit more for the Aogami. Sukenari AS is like a Tanaka Aogami on steroids. And a maker of whom if not AS or the super rare YXR7, I'd jump a Hap or ZDP unit. Ginsan and SG2 make that bland stance of Sukenari totally bland. They're just everywhere in a similar HT package.

All Sukenaris could have more taper and thinner tips. Fact. Lack of taper is part of why they feel rather bland.


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## ModRQC (Aug 15, 2021)

madmotts said:


> Lots of similar thoughts- I recently bought the hap40 Ktip and that initial feeling of- this is very “bland” knife. Maybe keep the packing box for BST.
> 
> The experience was really surprising- What it lacks in appearance really makes up for in both performance and feel. These are wolves in sheep’s clothing or sports cars in a sedans body. Really Well-made knives that are understated (unless dammy) and just perform.


 
Hey you don't have the rights to sum up ten pages of review in five sentences.  

Just messing your post is absolutely perfect counterpoint.


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## Jovidah (Aug 15, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> While I have nothing against Ginsan, you can get it everywhere, it's generally nicely done (think cheap Futana S3 and you get a perfect sample of the steel) but it never goes higher than 60-61 RC and it likes a toothy edge absolutely.
> 
> Same could be said of S. Tanaka Ginsan: value line but then again I'd always pay a bit more for the Aogami. Sukenari AS is like a Tanaka Aogami on steroids. And a maker of whom if not AS or the super rare YXR7, I'd jump a Hap or ZDP unit. Ginsan and SG2 make that bland stance of Sukenari totally bland. They're just everywhere in a similar HT package.
> 
> All Sukenaris could have more taper and thinner tips. Fact. Lack of taper is part of why they feel rather bland.


Yeah from an enthusiast perspective I can understand that the Ginsan is less sexy.
On the flipside... it's a really nice 'normieproof, financially more accessible (and acceptable) option that makes for an awesome introduction to J-knives. And one you can recommend to people without any worries or concerns. You still get pretty much the same cutting performance, and a fairly nice handle, at a really low price level.

I think the lack of taper is what's really holding them back from being more widely loved by enthusiasts.


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## beanbag (Nov 23, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> View attachment 138009


Three month old bump to say that the reason your BTE measurements are under is because you're squeezing the caliper wrong


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

This review is a waste of a Sukenari. Thank God he didn't go play with their real stuff. Didn't list HRC and missed the whole point of owning a Sukenari.


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## M1k3 (Nov 23, 2021)

Patiently awaiting for the reviews with differing opinions...


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## AT5760 (Nov 23, 2021)

@PtownPhil what's the whole point of owning a Sukenari? I've never used/owned one.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> @PtownPhil what's the whole point of owning a Sukenari? I've never used/owned one.


A Sukenari is a HARD knife. It is primarily made for push cutters. If you saw you stuff, don't get a Sukenari. Thats why I play with the ZDP and Hap40. Push cut thru a Roast with that. The HRC is very important in a Sukenari cuz it's the opposite of the soft 58-62HRC yall are used to. So that's why you can't review a Sukenari like a run thru the mill knife.


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## spaceconvoy (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> A Sukenari is a HARD knife. It is primarily made for push cutters. If you saw you stuff, don't get a Sukenari. Thats why I play with the ZDP and Hap40. Push cut thru a Roast with that. The HRC is very important in a Sukenari cuz it's the opposite of the soft 58-62HRC yall are used to. So that's why you can't review a Sukenari like a run thru the mill knife.


Wat? This is a very strange statement to me, a 58-62 hrc knife user who exclusively push cuts (and loves my 255mm ginsan sukenari). I had no idea I've been doing it all wrong.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Wat? This is a very strange statement to me, a 58-62 hrc knife user who exclusively push cuts (and loves my 255mm ginsan sukenari). I had no idea I've been doing it all wrong.


Have you push cutted with a 68HRC?


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## Barmoley (Nov 23, 2021)

The profile does not lend itself to primarily be used as a push cutter. Sukenari gyutos are general purpose knives, so it makes very little sense to claim that these knives are mainly made for push cutting. In general feel free to post your own review as was suggested.


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## spaceconvoy (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> Have you push cutted with a 68HRC?


Have you tried finishing softer knives with more appropriate stones?


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Have you tried finishing softer knives with more appropriate stones?


I don't sharpen, I like the Hardness of a Sukenari


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## Barmoley (Nov 23, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Wat? This is a very strange statement to me, a 58-62 hrc knife user who exclusively push cuts (and loves my 255mm ginsan sukenari). I had no idea I've been doing it all wrong.


It's ok sukenari themselves didn't realize their gyutos were made for push cutting only or primarily.


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## ModRQC (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> This review is a waste of a Sukenari. Thank God he didn't go play with their real stuff. Didn't list HRC and missed the whole point of owning a Sukenari.





PtownPhil said:


> A Sukenari is a HARD knife. It is primarily made for push cutters. If you saw you stuff, don't get a Sukenari. Thats why I play with the ZDP and Hap40. Push cut thru a Roast with that. The HRC is very important in a Sukenari cuz it's the opposite of the soft 58-62HRC yall are used to. So that's why you can't review a Sukenari like a run thru the mill knife.






ModRQC said:


> ... The 65HRC Aogami Super is tough enough and holds outstanding potential towards keenness. ...





ModRQC said:


> Not a difficult steel to work with for sure, but not a run of the mill softer carbon core neither. It didn’t come with the most even edge bevelling out of the box, so I had to recut the whole thing. SG500 did good work out of it, but it sure would have been a good deal faster with a lower grit for this kind of work – whereas most softer carbon steels are dealt with fast enough on that stone.
> 
> ...



Funny, what you're complaining especially with the choice of words...

Who ever said I was sawing stuff with my knives? This one is a total push cutter indeed. Just like I had said of my previous SG2 unit as well. I'd try a HAP-40 for sure. Not interested with their ZDP personally. 

I just prefer carbon cores to PM.

So... what... your waste my gain, quite possibly.

Thanks for playing.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> The profile does not lend itself to primarily be used as a push cutter. Sukenari gyutos are general purpose knives, so it makes very little sense to claim that these knives are mainly made for push cutting. In general feel free to post your own review as was suggested.


I don't have a problem with that. But when the review doesn't match the what I experience, can I question? Seriously No one gets the hairline, their a tad softer than the Damascus.


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## applepieforbreakfast (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> Seriously No one gets the hairline, their a tad softer than the Damascus.



Source?


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> Source?


Not sure exactly where. I think JCK said the Damascus was 1-2hrc harder, not much of a difference.


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## ModRQC (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> I don't sharpen, I like the Hardness of a Sukenari



Wow man it's a luck we have you around to provide us with the deepest of insights.


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## ModRQC (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> I don't have a problem with that. But when the review doesn't match the what I experience, can I question? Seriously No one gets the hairline, their a tad softer than the Damascus.



Ah lol I don't get Damascus if I can avoid them. But yeah on KnS they said the old Damascus Sukenari made of these were like 1-2 RC north.

Which I'm guessing with all your finesse that you would sure feel all that extra hardness would you? It would change your life. Would really make up for paying 200$ more than I did.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Wow man it's a luck we have you around to provide us with the deepest of insights.


Appreciate the sarcasm but I've had enough of people who throw away their Sukenaris cuz it's not the knife they thought they've bought.


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## ModRQC (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> Appreciate the sarcasm but I've had enough of people who throw away their Sukenaris cuz it's not the knife they thought they've bought.



Who's talking about throwing that one away? 

It sure would help getting any of your points across that they would at least make sense. 

Good luck!


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Ah lol I don't get Damascus if I can avoid them. But yeah on KnS they said the old Damascus Sukenari made of these were like 1-2 RC north.
> 
> Which I'm guessing with all your finesse that you would sure feel all that extra hardness would you? It would change your life. Would really make up for paying 200$ more than I did.


I never dis a person for how much they spend o a knife and why. I rather spend that time helping the person get the most out of it.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Who's talking about throwing that one away?
> 
> It sure would help getting any of your points across that they would at least make sense.
> 
> Good luck!


You should stop making this out like I'm trying to dis you personally.


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## ModRQC (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> You should stop making this out like I'm trying to dis you personally.



What I'm seeing is you talking way over your head about Sukenari as well as criticizing my review for missing stuff that was there, or meaning stuff it didn't...

And of course, gathering nothing but people telling you you're wrong as a result.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> What I'm seeing is you talking way over your head about Sukenari as well as criticizing my review for missing stuff that was there, or meaning stuff it didn't...
> 
> And of course, gathering nothing but people telling you you're wrong as a result.


So your saying I should be a misinformed? Not read the Japanese reviews, not read the makers opinion of the the knife b4 I buy it? Like you guys said, we buy knives for different reasons, and yet when I list my reasons and info, you want to say I'm speaking non sense, I'm wrong, I'm being negetive.


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## spaceconvoy (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> Like you guys said, we buy knives for different reasons, and yet when I list my reasons and info ...


Not sharpening your knives is a big reason to skip. It makes a lot more sense now, if you're going for maximum edge retention those steels are perfect. But making it all about hrc without discussing carbides, and push cutting instead of edge retention, is very confusing.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Not sharpening your knives is a big reason to skip. It makes a lot more sense now, if you're going for maximum edge retention those steels are perfect. But making it all about hrc without discussing carbides, and push cutting instead of edge retention, is very confusing.


So, you've never tried a fresh knife out of the box?


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## M1k3 (Nov 23, 2021)

Hardness =/= push cutting automatically.

Thin at and behind the edge = push cutting.

Hardness plays a roll, to a point. Has to be stiff enough to hold a thin edge. A very high hardness and high amount of carbide steel is going to, generally speaking, have a hard time holding a thin edge.


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## btbyrd (Nov 23, 2021)

Agreed, though stiffness is more a function of overall blade geometry than hardness. Thicker knives are stiffer, all else equal. Taller knives will be stiffer than shorter knives at the same hardness. For example, a Takeda gyuto (quite tall) will be stiffer than a Takeda sasanoha of the same length, even though they're the same hardness and thickness. HRC is about edge retention more than anything else.

And I wouldn't consider Sukenaris "push cutters." They're fine at push cutting, but the profile doesn't make them especially great at it. I'd prefer a larger flat spot if I was buying a knife for push cutting.

Anyway, nice review. I really want a 225mm-ish HAP40 Sukenari hairline with a k-tip and a generous flat spot. But I already have too many knives...


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## Barmoley (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> So, you've never tried a fresh knife out of the box?


I am so confused about what you are saying. You‘ve criticized this review and claimed sukenari was wasted on this review based only on the hardness of some sukenari knives. What does the hardness of the steel have to do with the cutting technique that you prefer? You can push cut with any knife. Some geometries are more appropriate to push cutting than others, such as flatter profiles. Thinner blades are also more appropriate for push cutting. Nakiri and Chinese vegetable cleaver are 2 prime examples of geometries that excel at push cutting. Most Chinese vegetable cleavers are made out of relatively soft steel and yet they are great at push cutting. Many Japanese knives that are made harder yet are not good at push cutting even though you could use this technique as well. You can make a German style chef knife with a very curvy edge, heat treat it very hard and it would still not be ideal at push cutting just because of the shape of the edge. Or you could have a very hard edge that was thick above the edge that would not excel at push cutting either. Hardness has very little to do with how well the knife behaves while push cutting. I also missed in the original review where the author claimed he didn’t push cut with this knife or that it was bad at it or any mention of the cutting technique used. Non ktip sukenari gyutos are good general purpose knives, the geometry is such that they work well for different cutting techniques, but don’t seem to be made specifically to excel at any particular technique. Please point to some references where the manufacturer says otherwise, since you claim that they do.


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## Delat (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> So, you've never tried a fresh knife out of the box?



Honestly this is a very strange question to challenge people with on a forum halfway filled with sharpening fanatics.

Since I became halfway decent at sharpening I haven’t encountered an OOTB edge that I couldn’t make sharper with a few minutes on either stone or strop, and I’ve been at it for less than a year. Even knives from actual professional sharpeners turned bladesmith were pretty mediocre OOTB, e.g. Shibata Koutetsu and Myojin.


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## ModRQC (Nov 23, 2021)

I'm quite confused myself of the above discussion.




beanbag said:


> Three month old bump to say that the reason your BTE measurements are under is because you're squeezing the caliper wrong



I beg you to realize that the picture was taken with my phone in one hand and the other hand trying to hold the caliper stiffly enough that it also held the knife from falling aside. Hint: knife was sharp, so this was no fun exercise. And of course I was wary of not inflicting damage for a shot.

I can assure you you're right though. Not much control in such a stance so I had to slowly release pressure until hitting about the same number I had gotten doing it properly with two free hands. Goal of the picture was not the "right" number on the caliper as much as to show the dots behind the edge I measure from, and where the point of the clamp lands when measuring 1mm BTE.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

Delat said:


> Honestly this is a very strange question to challenge people with on a forum halfway filled with sharpening fanatics.
> 
> Since I became halfway decent at sharpening I haven’t encountered an OOTB edge that I couldn’t make sharper with a few minutes on either stone or strop, and I’ve been at it for less than a year. Even knives from actual professional sharpeners turned bladesmith were pretty mediocre OOTB, e.g. Shibata Koutetsu and Myojin.


Who said I challenged, I said what I thought of the blade, and I'm getting attacked.


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## Jovidah (Nov 23, 2021)

Damn, I better ask my girlfriend to return her knife before the Sukenari police arrests her for occasionally rockchopping with it...
If more people are throwing theirs away hit me up; maybe I can arrange a knife-asylum.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> I am so confused about what you are saying. You‘ve criticized this review and claimed sukenari was wasted on this review based only on the hardness of some sukenari knives. What does the hardness of the steel have to do with the cutting technique that you prefer? You can push cut with any knife. Some geometries are more appropriate to push cutting than others, such as flatter profiles. Thinner blades are also more appropriate for push cutting. Nakiri and Chinese vegetable cleaver are 2 prime examples of geometries that excel at push cutting. Most Chinese vegetable cleavers are made out of relatively soft steel and yet they are great at push cutting. Many Japanese knives that are made harder yet are not good at push cutting even though you could use this technique as well. You can make a German style chef knife with a very curvy edge, heat treat it very hard and it would still not be ideal at push cutting just because of the shape of the edge. Or you could have a very hard edge that was thick above the edge that would not excel at push cutting either. Hardness has very little to do with how well the knife behaves while push cutting. I also missed in the original review where the author claimed he didn’t push cut with this knife or that it was bad at it or any mention of the cutting technique used. Non ktip sukenari gyutos are good general purpose knives, the geometry is such that they work well for different cutting techniques, but don’t seem to be made specifically to excel at any particular technique. Please point to some references where the manufacturer says otherwise, since you claim that they do.


Look, I now realize we come from 2 different mindset. I talk to Japanese people about what they look for in a knife.


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## Jovidah (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> This review is a waste of a Sukenari. Thank God he didn't go play with their real stuff. Didn't list HRC and missed the whole point of owning a Sukenari.





PtownPhil said:


> You should stop making this out like I'm trying to dis you personally.


These statements seem at odds with eachother...


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> These statements seem at odds with eachother...


Well read between the lines then, he was the one who called me names and accused me of stuff, I haven't said one thing bad about him- the person.


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## Jovidah (Nov 23, 2021)

Your first statement already sounded rude and insulting. That may not have been how you intended it, but that's how it came across when typed out on the internet.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> Your first statement already sounded rude and insulting. That may not have been how you intended it, but that's how it came across when typed out on the internet.


That was about the review not the person.


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## spaceconvoy (Nov 23, 2021)

it keeps getting better

brb, consulting my shinto priest over whether I should respect the wabi sabi of microchipped edges or if sharpening a knife insults the blacksmith's honor


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

Look your all right. I'm preaching to a bunch of people who modify their knives. Sorry for the distraction today. I just try to learn what my teachers are teaching me.


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## btbyrd (Nov 23, 2021)

Do any of them teach sharpening?


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

btbyrd said:


> Do any of them teach sharpening?


People that tell me, leave, don't argue. Bye.


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## tostadas (Nov 23, 2021)

Thanks @ModRQC for taking the time to provide nice photos and your opinions on this knife. I have no other opinion to offer here, so to everyone reading this... Haha, just wasted 10secs of your life.


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## Barmoley (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> Look, I now realize we come from 2 different mindset. I talk to Japanese people about what they look for in a knife.


Are you saying that because I happen not to be Japanese that I can't determine what the knife is good for or that I can't tell that hardness has nothing to do with the cutting technique the knife excels at?


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## PtownPhil (Nov 23, 2021)

What I'm saying is I walked myself in on a 5 senior member and 2 accessory fight over what someone else wrote. Great Poem, you happy?


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## TSF415 (Nov 23, 2021)

I have a 240 hap40 Sukenari k-tip. Its an amazing all-rounder that is my main work knife now. It would not be in my top ten knives I would grab to "push cut" but I'm sure everyones definition of what push cutting is different.


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## spaceconvoy (Nov 23, 2021)

tostadas said:


> to everyone reading this... Haha, just wasted 10secs of your life.









Now you're making feel slightly bad for piling on with the jokes (but only slightly). Here's my attempt at repentance with something on topic:

I've given up trying to find the perfect do-everything gyuto, and instead have been collecting knives that each fit a certain niche. I keep my Sukenari around because it's excellent at shredding cabbage and kale, and slicing in general. Yes, the tip is thick, but its stiffness and tip-heaviness is an advantage when dealing with a big pile of soft ingredients. It's also perfect for big loaves of bread.


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## btbyrd (Nov 23, 2021)

I keep mine around because it's possibly the most beautiful thing I own. But back to the original post and review.

Like the OP, I was surprised to see that the spine and choil on his hairline AS were so square. I thought everything was rounded -- my damascus ones are lovingly rounded on both spine and choil... the best rounding on any of my knvies. But I was happy to hear the OP's first-hand experience of the heat treatment on the steel. I once had it in my mind to track down the legendarily super-hard damascus AS version just to see what all the fuss was about, but I eventually came to think that if I was going to buy another Sukenari just for super-hard steel, it'd be the HAP40. I quite enjoyed hearing the OP's thoughts and seeing all those photos.


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## Barmoley (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> What I'm saying is I walked myself in on a 5 senior member and 2 accessory fight over what someone else wrote. Great Poem, you happy?


The fight is not over what someone else said. It is about what you said. You've made statements that are incorrect and made no sense. You've insulted someone else's review without providing any valid counter points. Everyone is welcomed here, this is a very nice and helpful place most of the time, but when you come with an attitude and very strong, incorrect opinions you need to be able to back them up. When you pretend to be an expert you are expected to know some basic things and you haven't so far shown to know them. You might very well know what you are talking about and know more than the rest of us, but so far it hasn't been displayed in what you've said.


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## Jville (Nov 23, 2021)

PtownPhil said:


> Look, I now realize we come from 2 different mindset. I talk to Japanese people about what they look for in a knife.


I have read all your comments. I’m replying to all of them in general. I’m simply quoting this one for ease… You sound like a pretentious little brat. As if you were a rich teenager whose daddy had a knife collection and showed you a few things and you went off to show the world how great you are. Sad thing is you are probably a grown man, but I can only hope that you are an adolescent, because your comments would make much more sense then. The people in this thread were actually quite patient with you, despite your spoiled brat antics. The things you have commented on make no sense. You also said stuff like “I don’t sharpen.”, yet you want to run your mouth like you are sone type of guru. Even hard steel knives will need sharpening, not that it should even need to be mentioned. Also you made the pretentious statement that people round here only use 58-62 hrc, which is absolutely ridiculous. The collections that people have around here the majority have used and owned knifes harder than that. And your approach as hrc is the end all be all of a knife is ridiculous. Also acting like everyone is going around “modifying” their knifes, and of course, your push cutting rant. Also your continual drop of you talking to Japanese people about knives touting yourself as superior in knowledge, when you don’t even seem to know the basics is hilarious. You remind me of this punk kid I worked with who had a few knifes from Japan when he visited. The kid couldn’t sharpen them properly, so they had become super thick behind the edge. He didn’t even know what type of steel his knives were yet he pretentiously told me his knives were better than mine, because he scoffingly said I got mine on the internet so they couldn’t be that great. You might want to talk to your Japanese friends about sone humility and knowing what the h$&@ you are talking about, before running your mouth. It’s not wrong to have a difference of opinion, but the way you ignorantly ran your mouth is just foolish.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Nov 23, 2021)

poor @ModRQC 
just want to say your detailed reviews are very helpful especially to newbies and I appreciate both you and your posts 

unrelated picture:


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## jedy617 (Nov 24, 2021)

Reading this thread gave me brain damage. Regardless, nice review. Handled my friends HAP40 Sukenari hairline and really enjoyed it. Been searching for an aogami super damascus from them, would love to try one out someday. 

Anyway, love my Sukenari, great do it all knife with excellent heat treatment and finishing, perfect size as well. I don't buy a knife for the out of the box edge or ability to push cut a certain way. I want good steel, heat treated well, with a good thin grind behind the edge, and good fit and finish.


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## M1k3 (Nov 24, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> poor @ModRQC
> just want to say your detailed reviews are very helpful especially to newbies and I appreciate both you and your posts
> 
> unrelated picture:
> View attachment 153428


Why are you posting my future makers mark?


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## Chicagohawkie (Nov 24, 2021)

just when you think you’ve seen it all…… along comes this.


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## ModRQC (Nov 24, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Why are you posting my future makers mark?



Hand chiseled? Great skills my man.


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## PtownPhil (Nov 24, 2021)

Jville said:


> I have read all your comments. I’m replying to all of them in general. I’m simply quoting this one for ease… You sound like a pretentious little brat. As if you were a rich teenager whose daddy had a knife collection and showed you a few things and you went off to show the world how great you are. Sad thing is you are probably a grown man, but I can only hope that you are an adolescent, because your comments would make much more sense then. The people in this thread were actually quite patient with you, despite your spoiled brat antics. The things you have commented on make no sense. You also said stuff like “I don’t sharpen.”, yet you want to run your mouth like you are sone type of guru. Even hard steel knives will need sharpening, not that it should even need to be mentioned. Also you made the pretentious statement that people round here only use 58-62 hrc, which is absolutely ridiculous. The collections that people have around here the majority have used and owned knifes harder than that. And your approach as hrc is the end all be all of a knife is ridiculous. Also acting like everyone is going around “modifying” their knifes, and of course, your push cutting rant. Also your continual drop of you talking to Japanese people about knives touting yourself as superior in knowledge, when you don’t even seem to know the basics is hilarious. You remind me of this punk kid I worked with who had a few knifes from Japan when he visited. The kid couldn’t sharpen them properly, so they had become super thick behind the edge. He didn’t even know what type of steel his knives were yet he pretentiously told me his knives were better than mine, because he scoffingly said I got mine on the internet so they couldn’t be that great. You might want to talk to your Japanese friends about sone humility and knowing what the h$&@ you are talking about, before running your mouth. It’s not wrong to have a difference of opinion, but the way you ignorantly ran your mouth is just foolish.


Funny, I actually did the most mature thing I could think of which was walk. Now yall want to kick me? I realized I wasn't going get anywhere, you guys are literally taking turn at taking shots at me. So I'm not allowed to read Japanese apparels and interviews on knives? Do I have to come here and conform to your beliefs to be a person that "makes sense"? Are going to escalate from here or are we going to walk? You call me an adolescent yet your the one dumping. You want to start hooking four letter words like Crenshaw BLVD? BE MY Guest. This "discussion" ceased to be informative, it's now tuned into a 7 on 1. Sorry I wasn't around to entertain, I had other things to do. But if your a true gentlemen then try to PM me instead of calling me names out here. Stay Classy.


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## ModRQC (Nov 24, 2021)

Pretty unbelievable.

I didn't call you any name, first and foremost. Until the post you just linked I don't think anyone did.

You know in some cultures, owning up to the mistakes you've made is being a man, and "walking away" not listening nor answering any argument made to you is being childish. Just saying...


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## jedy617 (Nov 24, 2021)




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## Nemo (Nov 24, 2021)

Maybe we will get this thread back on topic, thanks.


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## ModRQC (Nov 24, 2021)

We’re on topic…

…

… in a biomechanical (thanks @ian ) alternate reality?


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## rmrf (Nov 24, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> _Following my last review came a comment from a good KKF member who found himself in doubt about my specs behind the edge (the 1mm BTE measurement precisely). In his sense, mine were too low. He said this from an understandable perspective: more than a few knives I tried he also tried, and also took measurements of. His seemed to consistently be about 0.1mm thicker._
> 
> *Now, anyone not interested in such a discussion as it arises here can immediately skip to the real Sukenari foreword following the asterisks.*
> 
> ...



I really loved your description of how you measured BTE thickness! I always have the suspicion that comparing different people's BTE measurements was a load of hooey but what do I know. Anyways, any measurement on a caliper is like +/- 0.03 mm and measurements on the lower end are often problematic. I remember learning that you have to be pretty skilled to get within that threshold. I forget if its easy to get within 2 or 3 thou. I do remember that if you drop your calipers, you might as well throw them away. 

If I were you and I wanted to get consistancy in measurements at this high precision, I would look for a set of micrometers. The conventional flat faced ones would probably work, but I think there are also ones with needles on the pads so you can really see where you're measuring. I never used those, however. I think they are harder to use because you need to get the angle just right where the flat faced ones are sort of self-adjusting. 

A machinist would undoubtedly be more qualified than me to advise you and there's probably a few on this forum somewhere...

In general, I really love your reviews. I was looking into sukenari for a while but I think you convinced me to wait. I am only starting to appreciate grind now that I f***ed up thinning my own knives  I would ruin the grind and not have enough metal to fix it  



nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> poor @ModRQC
> just want to say your detailed reviews are very helpful especially to newbies and I appreciate both you and your posts
> 
> unrelated picture:
> View attachment 153428



Whew, even when I know this curve exists I still fall into the trap. I look forward to gaining confidence. But to paraphrase Feymann, there's always more room at the bottom!


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## captaincaed (Nov 25, 2021)

jedy617 said:


> I want good steel, heat treated well, with a good thin grind behind the edge, and good fit and finish.



I’ll drink to that


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## captaincaed (Nov 25, 2021)

.


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## ian (Nov 25, 2021)

Nice review, OP. As to the ensuing discussion, I quote from the master:



captaincaed said:


> .


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## captaincaed (Nov 25, 2021)

Can’t figure out how to get the signature to work like @M1k3 does it…


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## M1k3 (Nov 25, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Can’t figure out how to get the signature to work like @M1k3 does it…


Quote what you want like you're responding to it. Copy that. Paste in signature.


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## ModRQC (Nov 25, 2021)

Probably works the same hitting Reply instead too.


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## Jovidah (Nov 25, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Can’t figure out how to get the signature to work like @M1k3 does it…


You mean like this?


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## spaceconvoy (Nov 25, 2021)




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## M1k3 (Nov 25, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> View attachment 153626


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## captaincaed (Nov 25, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 153627


Dammit!


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## ian (Nov 25, 2021)

Yea, it's funny. If you view the forum on Safari on iOS, signatures don't appear in portrait mode, but they do in landscape.


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## M1k3 (Nov 25, 2021)

ian said:


> Yea, it's funny. If you view the forum on Safari on iOS, signatures don't appear in portrait mode, but they do in landscape.


Same with Chrome on Android. And pictures always load... 

But if you use the 'Request Desktop Site' option it'll always show.


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## ian (Nov 25, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> And pictures always load...



Android schmandroid


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## M1k3 (Nov 25, 2021)

ian said:


> Android schmandroid


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## captaincaed (Nov 25, 2021)

ian said:


> Yea, it's funny. If you view the forum on Safari on iOS, signatures don't appear in portrait mode, but they do in landscape.


Ok you just blew my mind


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## captaincaed (Nov 25, 2021)

I just realized my signature actually worked


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## ModRQC (Nov 25, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I just realized my signature actually worked




Lol I love your actual signature.


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## ian (Nov 26, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 153641



How else are you supposed to photograph that part of your body?


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## ModRQC (Nov 26, 2021)

ian said:


> How else are you supposed to photograph that part of your body?



Please keep the answer to this as well as any example out of my review thread


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## Nemo (Jan 26, 2022)

This was an interesting review. Thanks.

I've had my Sukenari AS 240mm (not a K-tip) for a year and a bit.

I bought it with a handle upgrade- a heart shaped ringed gidgee handle with KnS's new tapered ferrule. I immediately fell for the knife because of the handle . The handle is very nice to hold, kinda just "fitting" perfectly in the hand. It's also absolutely stunning. One of my nicest handles (and I have some pretty good ones). A lot of handle for (IIRC) 200 odd bucks (over the basic KnS ebony).

As @ModRQC mentioned, the blade is not so nice to hold. If there was chamfering on the spine, it was pretty minor. The profile is reasonably flat but not Yoshikane flat. It's neither a super tall nor super short blade. The blade face was finished uniformly but fairly coarsely (maybe 4-600 grit?) And the coarse grind marks were very very prominent (but uniform) underneath. There is little taper to the spine.

I found the initial performance a little underwhelming. It struggled a bit in hard veg. Sharpening at circa 10 dps on Chosera 3k helped maybe a little but it still struggled a little in hard veg. Sharpening was very straight forward, although the steel felt harder on the stones than the Echizen AS I have used. A bit like the difference between a Wat and a Tanaka blue2. The edge was keen and retention was very good.

I decided to see how the Sukenari AS responded to thinning. I thinned on a Choserra 400, not a particularly coarse stone. I was surprised to raise a burr at my (blade flat to the stone) thinning angle fairly quickly. I can't recall exactly how many strokes but if it was more than 30, it wasn't many more. The thinning bevel was refined on Chosera 1k and 3k (I have had good experience with food release at Cho 3k on other knives) and sharpened at probably under 10dps on Chosera 3k.

The difference in performance was immediately apparent, with excellent performance in hard veg. The blade looked quite unevenly finished and I decided that I would fix that at the next Sharpening. I have used the knife as a daily driver for months, waiting for it to need sharpening. Unfortunately, every time it lost a tiny bit of keeness, this was immediately restored with a swipe or two over diamond loaded felt and this refreshed edge would last a week or so. This went on for a few months. Doubtless the best edge retention I have experienced in a carbon steel.

Last weekend, I finally decided that the stropping wasn't doing quite as good a job, so I decided to refinish and resharpen. I also took the opportunity to chamfer the spine and choil, which are now much more comfortable. The finish is a semi-mirror (p3000) which took about 90 minutes, including resharpening and chamfering. A full mirror would doubtless take several times as long and would probably result in worse food release.

My knife was quite usable out of the box but perhaps a bit under-thinned. I might have gotten a particularly thick version, perhaps? It was certainly thicker BTE than my Sukenari YXR7. It had a lot of untapped potential which was fortunately not that difficult to tap into. It was a smallish, but fun and very rewarding project.

The steel is great. I don't mind the Echizen AS but this at another level. A PM steel will stay sharp a bit longer but not THIS sharp. I've had no issues with chipping, even when thinned and sharpened at under 10 dps. Even skinning pumpkin.


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## ModRQC (Jan 26, 2022)

Nemo said:


> This was an interesting review. Thanks.
> 
> I've had my Sukenari AS 240mm (not a K-tip) for a year and a bit.
> 
> ...



Thanks @Nemo 

Mine was the thinnest by far of three Sukenaris tried as said in the review I believe. And also a bit more fairly symmetrical in grind that others came to me. But as was also pointed out in my review, lenght is not run of the mill Sukenari offering and I always suspected it was a custom lenght demand where the buyer bailed out - or a KNS demand that they didn't seek to get regular might be more plausible? And I'm now suspecting Sukenari might grind their K-tips a bit more ostentiously asymmetrical than their gyutos - which would explain what I experienced for grind with 240mm SG2 and 210mm HAP, both K-tips.

The mirror core project I did since was not so much for performance than food release. Took heed of the chance and imparted somewhat of a more convex BTE while also removing the original finish marks out of that core. Compared to my HAP-40, not only this one was much thinner, but also I could basically follow the core pretty closely, and it was mostly the much more ready mud of SP2K throwing off a progression of hard Ceramics (except final core polish on a Kitayama 8K but that stone is hard enough to not stand too much at odds with the lower grits ceramics before it) to some extent. Left side sure flatter than the right side as I suspected, yet not all so flat nor so different an angle on stones neither to the right side - which I was wary it would be and would entirely throw off my trying to carry as precise and less involving work as I could. But it didn't much. 

Compared to doing that one, trying the same on the HAP-40 unit was a fiasco. Even using less pressure and keeping the angle more obtuse, left side entirely took a full 20-25mm area of scratches from a few shy test strokes high to lower angle and then using the angle that seemed to work on the core well while keeping cladding scratching limited. On the contrary, right side needed a few slighly different angles to just touch the full width of the core, but then touching the upper core area/clad line was touching a fair 10mm upwards of it. Yielding fairly symmetrical scratch pattern width in the end, but the work wasn't at all. Right side took thrice as long as the left side at each step of the progression.

Not saying this is science. Just my experience and thinking about these. Right now the AS is for sale on BST, but not because I don't like it, just because I need to get back some money and made a fair split with 210mm I don't use nearly as often as I do others. I still use all fairly regularly. Also because I finally found the length and shape of Sukenaris (loved all of them) that really suits me best with their type of grind, and that is the 210mm K-tip profile. Don't be surprised when you'll see me sell said HAP 210mm K-tip. It will probably be because KnS will have made YXR7 210mm K-tips available again and I'll get a kick trying another steel from them yet. Which I think is their strongest point. 

Preferences are a *****. I'd readily replace some of my favorite gyuto's steel with Sukenari AS. But where steel might very well have me BUY a knife, it rarely is the reason why I'll KEEP it - until it blends into my preferences with other things as well. Say Shi.Han 52100. That's a rare place where I could finally lock onto a maker/steel I'd readily buy again and again for their own sake just as much as all the other things that will have me KEEP it forever.


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