# First sharpening advice



## scrappy (Mar 14, 2022)

I plan to sharpen a knife tomorrow for the first time. It is a CCK 1303 carbon cleaver. I have a Shapton Pro 1K stone. I am wondering what angle is the best to aim for? Should I use a Sharpie? Any advice would be much appreciated.


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## cotedupy (Mar 14, 2022)

This angle works works well for that kind of relatively thin caidao - width of your thumb at the spine:


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## scrappy (Mar 14, 2022)

Thanks for the advice. I’ll try that. That looks to be about 20 degrees to me.


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## Walla (Mar 14, 2022)

Congratulations on taking the plunge.

If you haven't check out Jon at jki videos or those by Peter Nowlan.

Use a sharpie... maintain a constant angle...

Good luck...let us know how it works out.

Take care

Jeff


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## scrappy (Mar 14, 2022)

Walla said:


> Congratulations on taking the plunge.
> 
> If you haven't check out Jon at jki videos or those by Peter Nowlan.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for encouragement and suggestions, Jeff. I’ll check out the videos before I start sharpening. Seeing exactly how to do things will make life a lot easier


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## Walla (Mar 14, 2022)

Another bit of advice...

Don't watch too many different videos by different people...pick one method and stick with it...

When starting out trying to switch between too many different techniques will slow your progress. Once you're able to get consistently repeatable results then experiment all you care too.

And remember, when starting out as long as it's sharper than when you started...it's a success... you'll soon enough get to whatever standard you feel is sharp enough....

Take care

Jeff


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Mar 14, 2022)

The width of the knife divided by 3 is approximately 20 degrees.

The width divided by 4 is approximately 15 degrees.


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## scrappy (Mar 14, 2022)

Walla said:


> When starting out trying to switch between too many different techniques will slow your progress. Once you're able to get consistently repeatable results then experiment all you care too.


Thanks again. I’ll pick one method and run with that. The cleaver was fairly blunt OOTB, so the bar is set low for sharpness. I hope I can clear it.


VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> The width of the knife divided by 3 is approximately 20 degrees.
> 
> The width divided by 4 is approximately 15 degrees.


That a really useful rule of thumb. Thank you.


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## Benuser (Mar 14, 2022)

If you are fine with the existing geometry: start at the lowest possible angle, and raise the spine only little by little, until you've reached the very edge. Check with a sharpie and a loupe your progress, and make sure you don't overlook a microbevel. Start on the other side only when you have obtained a clean bevel. Then do the same on the other side.


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## psfred (Mar 14, 2022)

And since I've managed to grind the skin off both of my thumbs lately, avoid sliding your thumb or finger over the stone while guiding the blade. 1K won't be bad, but coarser stones abrade skin nicely, and you won't notice until it starts to sting.....

A sharpie along the edge is a great idea, as it will tell you what you are grinding off and if you are grinding where you want to be -- and if it all goes away at once, that you are wobbling. A very useful trick.

Use light pressure, let the stone do the work, else you will dish it far faster than you need to. It's only going to cut as fast as it does, more pressure on waterstones won't make them cut much faster, unlike Arkansas stones.


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## cotedupy (Mar 14, 2022)

scrappy said:


> Thanks for the advice. I’ll try that. That looks to be about 20 degrees to me.



Yeah something like that, don't worry about it too much though. I just do that because it's a very easy way to get a good angle guide on Chinese cleavers.

Use a sharpie if you fancy, but really you just want to sharpen until you raise a burr all the way along the edge, flip it, do the same, and then deburr. Don't overthink it too much - even better quality caidao like this have inconsistent grinds. So just go until you've got the burr all the way along, and that'll even up the edge for future sharpening.

You've got a good stone for it too, around 1k is what you want for this .


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## cotedupy (Mar 14, 2022)

BTW - I could probably do with sharpening a couple of mine sometime, and I'd be happy to make a vid if that'd be useful for you?


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## JASinIL2006 (Mar 15, 2022)

I would be interested to see that!


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## cotedupy (Mar 15, 2022)

JASinIL2006 said:


> I would be interested to see that!



Alright then - I'll make a little vid, either later today or more likely tomorrow. Will just be shot on a phone camera I'm afraid, but I'll try to explain a bit about it... it's not very complicated tbh!


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## scrappy (Mar 15, 2022)

Benuser said:


> If you are fine with the existing geometry: start at the lowest possible angle, and raise the spine only little by little, until you've reached the very edge. Check with a sharpie and a loupe your progress, and make sure you don't overlook a microbevel. Start on the other side only when you have obtained a clean bevel. Then do the same on the other side.


Thanks for the tips! I’ll order myself a loupe and a couple of Sharpies. Sorry to ask a dumb question, but does the term “geometry“ refer to the angle of the blade? If so, I may not be the best judge as I do not fully understand how angle affects performance. Also, I am yet to learn how the form and material of a knife make one particular angle better than another. However, I do know that the cleaver is not sharp out of the box. Would it be a good idea, initially, to sharpen the edge at the existing angle so that I can concentrate on consistency and getting a sense of the feedback?


psfred said:


> Use light pressure, let the stone do the work, else you will dish it far faster than you need to. It's only going to cut as fast as it does, more pressure on waterstones won't make them cut much faster, unlike Arkansas stones.


That’s really good to know. Thank you. I’ll use light pressure only. No doubt, it will take some time to get a feel for it. I got an Atoma plate with the stone with the intention of flattening before any dishing became too pronounced.


cotedupy said:


> BTW - I could probably do with sharpening a couple of mine sometime, and I'd be happy to make a vid if that'd be useful for you?


That’s really kind of you. A video would definitely be helpful, if it’s not too much trouble


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## Benuser (Mar 15, 2022)

scrappy said:


> Thanks for the tips! I’ll order myself a loupe and a couple of Sharpies. Sorry to ask a dumb question, but does the term “geometry“ refer to the angle of the blade?


Profile refers to the height of a tip, a fat belly, flat sections. Geometry to the cross-section: sharpening angle, how thin it is behind the edge, asymmetry, the edge being more or less off-centered to one side or another. My proposal was to make it possible to splendidly ignore those figures and restore the previous configuration. Later on you may decide to change it. Increase the sharpening angle if you experience fast damage to the edge, more thinning behind the edge and increasing or reducing the sharpening angle of one side only if you feel uneasy with steering, and want to compensate for it.
But for now, with your first sharpening, get the basics and learn how to restore an given edge as it was before getting dull.


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## scrappy (Mar 15, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Profile refers to the height of a tip, a fat belly, flat sections. Geometry to the cross-section: sharpening angle, how thin it is behind the edge, asymmetry, the edge being more or less off-centered to one side or another. My proposal was to make it possible to splendidly ignore those figures and restore the previous configuration. Later on you may decide to change it. Increase the sharpening angle if you experience fast damage to the edge, more thinning behind the edge and increasing or reducing the sharpening angle of one side only if you feel uneasy with steering, and want to compensate for it.
> But for now, with your first sharpening, get the basics and learn how to restore an given edge as it was before getting dull.


Wow. Thanks for the fantastic explanation. That makes things a lot clearer. Also, I was wondering what effect an acute/obtuse angle would have on edge retention. Now I know!

And yes, I won’t try to run before I can walk. One baby step at a time


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## gaijin (Mar 15, 2022)

You're entering a fun learning process. Remember that most mistakes are fixable.

My recommendation after four or five years of learning:

Just take it slow and focus on what you're doing. The constant angle is important but it will take some time to build the muscle memory for that. It will come with practice. Have fun. Take breaks when you're getting frustrated.

Also, figure out how you test your sharpness so you know if you're getting the result you want.


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## scrappy (Mar 15, 2022)

gaijin said:


> You're entering a fun learning process. Remember that most mistakes are fixable.
> 
> My recommendation after four or five years of learning:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the encouragement. I will make sure I have the basics down before moving on. At the moment, I only have three knives. One steel (Wüsthof chef), one carbon (CCK cleaver), and one stainless-clad (Takamura R2 petty). I’ll probably have the Takamura professionally sharpened until I know what I’m doing.

As for testing sharpness, I guess I’ll be cutting paper. Quick and easy, no dedicated equipment required.


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## Benuser (Mar 16, 2022)

Take care when sending out. Make sure the sharpener provides a stone sharpening. Only very few do so.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 16, 2022)

scrappy said:


> Wow. Thanks for the fantastic explanation. That makes things a lot clearer. Also, I was wondering what effect an acute/obtuse angle would have on edge retention. Now I know!
> 
> And yes, I won’t try to run before I can walk. One baby step at a time


Generally a more acute angle will have better edge retention. How acute you can go is a bit of a complicated thing to say though. That depends on the steels composition, hardness, thickness behind the edge, and use of the blade in question. 

It can make the edge less impact resistant though, so if you plan to use a blade for hard chopping (going through bones, cutting down a tree) you will need a more obtuse angle. 

My advice to you, as a first time sharpener. Is don't get discouraged, and try not to get overwhelmed. This is something that improves with time. My first edge wasn't great, but practice makes a world of difference. Don't give up, if you aren't happy with your results!

Also, perfect practice makes perfect. try to identify bad techniques as fast as possible. with anything that takes time to pick up, the worst thing you can do is reinforce bad habits. So try to be cognizant of what is working, and what isn't.


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## gaijin (Mar 16, 2022)

scrappy said:


> As for testing sharpness, I guess I’ll be cutting paper. Quick and easy, no dedicated equipment required.



I guess a few carrots and tomatoes will also be sacrificed...


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## BoSharpens (Mar 16, 2022)

There is good reason for "sharpening", or as I think of it, "heavy metal removal." That's when the knife has never been razor sharp or the profile is not consistent due to chips or dents or Steeling or powered sharpener device caused removal of more metal near the heel and a scimitar edge shape exists.

But for my knives that are kept in proper fine condition, when I need to retouch the very tip back to razor sharp, I call it "honing." I don't use a horizontal stone on a bench.

I use a green Sharpie mark on the edge, hold the edge up & use the other hand with an Arkansas stone to lightly stroke along the edge & upward to remove the sharpie mark all along the edge on both sides. Usually that is all that is required to get my edges back to be able to drop straight down with no effort through a "Post-It note" paper.


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## scrappy (Mar 16, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Take care when sending out. Make sure the sharpener provides a stone sharpening. Only very few do so.


That’s a good call. I’ll be sure to request a stone sharpening. Thanks!


jwthaparc said:


> My advice to you, as a first time sharpener. Is don't get discouraged, and try not to get overwhelmed. This is something that improves with time. My first edge wasn't great, but practice makes a world of difference. Don't give up, if you aren't happy with your results!


Thanks for the advice. I am ready for a long, sometimes frustrating journey. Luckily, I’m stubborn, so I don’t give up easily. I’ll remember to step back if I hit a brick wall, though. When that happens, it’s easy to get discouraged.


BoSharpens said:


> But for my knives that are kept in proper fine condition, when I need to retouch the very tip back to razor sharp, I call it "honing." I don't use a horizontal stone on a bench.
> 
> I use a green Sharpie mark on the edge, hold the edge up & use the other hand with an Arkansas stone to lightly stroke along the edge & upward to remove the sharpie mark all along the edge on both sides. Usually that is all that is required to get my edges back to be able to drop straight down with no effort through a "Post-It note" paper.


That’s a useful pointer. Thank you. I would like to be your position, one where I am generally honing not sharpening. I have a honing steel, a strop and a stone. With any luck, and with regular maintenance, I can bring up the edge on a strop or steel without removing too much metal


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## BoSharpens (Mar 16, 2022)

scrappy said:


> I have a honing steel, a strop and a stone. With any luck, and with regular maintenance, I can bring up the edge on a strop or steel without removing too much metal



I am well known for being "Anti-Steel Rods" for sharpening, as I see far too much metal removed and uneven removal of metal from an edge with "Steels."

The truth about taking a good edge back to razor sharp, after a week or two of use, is that you are just trying to remove a few ten-thousandths of an inch off the tip of the edge and "straighten" any slight bends. That type of honing is more dependent on eye & hand control than anything else.

To that end, in control, I use a headband magnifier so I can see the edge details very very well. You can get anything from 2x to 7x lenses for some of the inexpensive headbands, so you can get magnification to meet your needs while keeping corrective glasses on. Last time I checked, the grey plastic headband magnifiers on Amazon were less than $30.


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## BoSharpens (Mar 16, 2022)

"To that end, in control, I use a headband magnifier so I can see the edge details very very well."

This reminds me that in viewing a few supposed experts in both sharpening and honing, I have NEVER seen any of those YouTube videos show a guy using a headband magnifier.

I do not believe it is possible to truly understand edges & remove minimum metal unless you have very powerful magnification or even a microscope, which I also use.

It is one thing to "think" you are getting where you want to be with an edge by feel versus actually easily SEEING it. It makes a big difference.

It may also cause you to change techniques & stones to achiever your desired edge, so you get a fine edge more quickly which has fewer or no flaws.

One thing I found very early on was that pushing any abrasive toward the tip of an edge could occassionally put a groove in the edge or take a burr off and scrape it on the edge making a mark. My fine honing is only done from the spine toward the edge, period.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 16, 2022)

Just get started brother. No music, no beer, relaxed mind, and put the knife to the stone. I strongly advocate using a Sharpie and analyzing what is happening but it is no more important than feeling what is happening. And I don't just mean the feel of the stone but your hands, arms, your neck. Don't be tense but be controlled. What do you hear? What does the stone tell you? What do your fingers feel along the edge?

Accept mistakes or shortcomings and learn from them and just keep going.

You can do it.


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## Pie (Mar 16, 2022)

Random pointer - don’t be toooooooo gentle with the pressure. I started out doing zero research, and went through about 5 sessions lightly dragging the knife around and removing zero steel. Needless to say, terrible results. 

There should be at least a small amount of metal removed and visible as dark slurry if things go as intended.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 18, 2022)

Pie said:


> Random pointer - don’t be toooooooo gentle with the pressure. I started out doing zero research, and went through about 5 sessions lightly dragging the knife around and removing zero steel. Needless to say, terrible results.
> 
> There should be at least a small amount of metal removed and visible as dark slurry if things go as intended.


Yeah. I feel like pressure is just one of those things you pick up as you go. 

Generally speaking. Use more pressure in the beginning, then when you are finishing use barely any. 

I think the biggest objective for someone just starting will be hold your angle steady. Whatever angle you pick, stick with it. Don't rock the knife back and forth (I mean rocking the angle), unless you are purposely trying to convex the knife, which I wouldn't recommend for a first timer. You are likely going to convex the edge. Leading to a duller knife. 

In conclusion. Just sharpen the knife already. You can do it!


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## Kawa (Mar 18, 2022)

You can learn the technique from youtube.
You have to learn sharpening yourself. Holding a steady edge takes time/practise.

Is the knife sharper then before sharpening? Good!

Next knife.
Youll get them sharper along the way. No use in trying to perfect that first knife for now.


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## Forty Ounce (Mar 18, 2022)

This is one of my tutorials, it's short and sweet.



I would highly recommend watching every video in the JKI knife sharpening playlist, repeat this every month or so until you're doing well.



https://youtube.com/c/JKnifeImports


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## scrappy (Mar 19, 2022)

I hoped I would be posting back by now with a report of my first sharpening, but unfortunately, I spent the whole of last weekend in close contact with someone with COVID. Unsurprisingly, I am now unwelcome in the family kitchen, so I will be sitting things out till I get the all clear.



Forty Ounce said:


> This is one of my tutorials, it's short and sweet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for the video. I shall watch it this evening. I’ll also check out JKI. It seems to be a well-regarded resource on here


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## cotedupy (Mar 20, 2022)

scrappy said:


> I hoped I would be posting back by now with a report of my first sharpening, but unfortunately, I spent the whole of last weekend in close contact with someone with COVID. Unsurprisingly, I am now unwelcome in the family kitchen, so I will be sitting things out till I get the all clear.
> 
> 
> Thank you so much for the video. I shall watch it this evening. I’ll also check out JKI. It seems to be a well-regarded resource on here




Hopefully you (and they) are all alright, though it has at least given me time to finally make a vid for you! Like everyone, I hate talking on camera, and have probably completely mangled Chinese pronunciation, but here's how to get a caidao to cleanly drop through kitchen towel with a few mins on a King 800. It's all pretty simple tbh, you don't need to overthink it too much.














@JASinIL2006


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## scrappy (Mar 20, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Hopefully you (and they) are all alright, though it has at least given me time to finally make a vid for you! Like everyone, I hate talking on camera, and have probably completely mangled Chinese pronunciation, but here's how to get a caidao to cleanly drop through kitchen towel with a few mins on a King 800. It's all pretty simple tbh, you don't need to overthink it too much.
> 
> 
> View attachment 170781
> ...



You absolute legend! I now know exactly how my CCK 1303 should be sharpened. You make it look so easy. Even though I won’t sharpen with the same style, you have given me the confidence to think “I got this!”. Thanks a million


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## JASinIL2006 (Mar 20, 2022)

Thanks for making the sharpening video, @cotedupy ! That is very helpful!


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## cotedupy (Mar 21, 2022)

scrappy said:


> You absolute legend! I now know exactly how my CCK 1303 should be sharpened. You make it look so easy. Even though I won’t sharpen with the same style, you have given me the confidence to think “I got this!”. Thanks a million



No worries! Just note that if you have trouble raising a burr - it will be because the sharpening angle is more acute than the factory edge, and you're abrading / easing the 'shoulders', rather than sharpening the egde. I tend to do this when I get one, as I like a slightly more acute sharpening angle, but if you just want to sharpen it quickly and easily, then just raise the angle slightly and you'll have no problem.

Caidao have slightly more simple grinds than posh Japanese knives; they're thicker just behind the edge, so if you do want to thin or ease the shoulders it can take a little while on a 1k stone. Don't be afraid to use a decent amount of pressure at the start, as if you make a mistake it'll be very easy to rectify .


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## cotedupy (Mar 21, 2022)

P.S. I have since been informed that I was indeed (unsurprisingly) completely mangling Catonese pronunciation... it should be more like ‘Choy Dao’.


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## scrappy (Mar 21, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> No worries! Just note that if you have trouble raising a burr - it will be because the sharpening angle is more acute than the factory edge, and you're abrading / easing the 'shoulders', rather than sharpening the egde. I tend to do this when I get one, as I like a slightly more acute sharpening angle, but if you just want to sharpen it quickly and easily, then just raise the angle slightly and you'll have no problem.
> 
> Caidao have slightly more simple grinds than posh Japanese knives; they're thicker just behind the edge, so if you do want to thin or ease the shoulders it can take a little while on a 1k stone. Don't be afraid to use a decent amount of pressure at the start, as if you make a mistake it'll be very easy to rectify .


Again, thank you for the invaluable advice. I’m trying to get my head around the shoulders concept. If I want to sharpen an edge to a more acute angle than the existing one, does that mean I am removing metal higher up on the blade? If I didn’t wouldn’t I end up with two angles? I might be overcomplicating things here. Hmmm…

PS As I don’t speak Cantonese myself, your mispronunciation passed me by, but it’s great when people are respectful of other languages 

PPS I thought your presentation in the video was spot-on. We Brits tend to be more self-conscious in front of a camera. You did a great job!


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## gaijin (Mar 21, 2022)

scrappy said:


> Again, thank you for the invaluable advice. I’m trying to get my head around the shoulders concept. If I want to sharpen an edge to a more acute angle than the existing one, does that mean I am removing metal higher up on the blade? If I didn’t wouldn’t I end up with two angles? I might be overcomplicating things here. Hmmm…



I tried making a simple pic to clarify it:





The black is the knife. The red line is where you grind away metal when you hit the shoulder. 

If you just do it "a little" then you'll get two angles (or more reasonably something smooth inbetween if doing freehand - your angle will not be perfect). If you just do it a little you'll also not hit the actual cutting egde and you won't create a burr since you won't reach the apex. The knife will however be thinner and that also helps goint through some produce.

But if you do grind away more until you reach the edge, then you will have reshaped the edge to be more acute. And you'll of course want to do something similar from both sides.


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## gaijin (Mar 21, 2022)

OK, @scrappy - many posts here. How is the sharpening going in real life?


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## cotedupy (Mar 21, 2022)

scrappy said:


> Again, thank you for the invaluable advice. I’m trying to get my head around the shoulders concept. If I want to sharpen an edge to a more acute angle than the existing one, does that mean I am removing metal higher up on the blade? If I didn’t wouldn’t I end up with two angles? I might be overcomplicating things here. Hmmm…
> 
> PS As I don’t speak Cantonese myself, your mispronunciation passed me by, but it’s great when people are respectful of other languages
> 
> PPS I thought your presentation in the video was spot-on. We Brits tend to be more self-conscious in front of a camera. You did a great job!




Ah cheers! Glad you found helpful .

@gaijin has explained perfectly the thing I was talking about with 'shoulders' and slightly more acute angle sharpening. (And you don't have to thin it if you don't want; I was only really mentioning it because if you're having trouble raising a burr - that will likely be why. As they tend to come with slightly wider edge angles than 20 degs, ime.)


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## scrappy (Mar 21, 2022)

gaijin said:


> I tried making a simple pic to clarify it:
> 
> View attachment 170943
> B
> ...


Awesome explanation. Thank you so much. That has made things crystal clear 


gaijin said:


> OK, @scrappy - many posts here. How is the sharpening going in real life?


I am currently self-isolating. Still, three more days to go. I was at a superspreader event last weekend. I seem to the only person who hasn’t caught COVID. I am being extra cautious about retrieving my kit and knives from the kitchen (from which I am currently banned) as my vulnerable, 83yo dad lives with us. No sharpening is gonna be done till Friday now, sadly


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## Skylar303 (Mar 21, 2022)

scrappy said:


> Awesome explanation. Thank you so much. That has made things crystal clear
> 
> I am currently self-isolating. Still, three more days to go. I was at a superspreader event last weekend. I seem to the only person who hasn’t caught COVID. I am being extra cautious about retrieving my kit and knives from the kitchen (from which I am currently banned) as my vulnerable, 83yo dad lives with us. No sharpening is gonna be done till Friday now, sadly


Yikes well glad you're being cautious and considerate. Too bad you don't keep some knives and stones in your room, you'd be a pro after a week! Lol run a string from your room and attach it to a tray and drag your stuff to your room. 

Great bits of info here, especially for another struggling grasping the correct aspects of sharpening. Like apparently I maybe over honing my knives, being used to razors... I figured the 'smoother' the better, not really for knives...

Thank you both for making videos. I'll have to try 40's method so I don't have to switch hands. That was one thing I was struggling with, non dominant hand angle... One side looks good imo and the others beginning to convex being held in the Left hand.


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## scrappy (Mar 24, 2022)

So, my real-life sharpening has met with mixed results. I think my cai dao was possibly sharper before I sharpened it, although not by much. I watched and rewatched the videos that cotedupy and 40 Ounce kindly linked, and reread the posts in this thread, but I am clearly having problems maintaining a consistent angle. When I looked at the the blade in the light, I could see the edge I had created. It was thicker in some parts and thinner in others, not dramatically so, but almost like a wave.

I am going to try again tomorrow, and really concentrate on the angle. Hopefully, it’s a case of developing the muscle memory and improving my hand position and strokes. I didn’t have a Sharpie earlier today, but I have one now, so I’ll be using that tomorrow. I might even try sharpening a cheap, old knife to get a feel for things first. Onwards and upwards.


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## gaijin (Mar 24, 2022)

Good! Just keep practicing.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 24, 2022)

Be sure to relax. If you get flustered and tense and start trying to force things, you will screw up. If you feel yourself getting that way just come back another time. Keep your muscles relaxed and pay attention to your angle.

It takes practice so don't get discouraged.


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## scrappy (Mar 24, 2022)

gaijin said:


> Good! Just keep practicing.


Will do! Even when it wasn’t producing the desired results, it was relaxing as hell.


HumbleHomeCook said:


> Be sure to relax. If you get flustered and tense and start trying to force things, you will screw up. If you feel yourself getting that way just come back another time. Keep your muscles relaxed and pay attention to your angle.
> 
> It takes practice so don't get discouraged.


Thanks for the advice and encouragement. If it gets frustrating, I’ll definitely take a breather. At the moment, though, I’m really looking forward to trying it again. All part of the learning curve


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## gaijin (Mar 24, 2022)

scrappy said:


> Will do! Even when it wasn’t producing the desired results, it was relaxing as hell.



It is it's own form of meditation. Just wait until the day you take a perfectly fine knife and dull it down on purpose just to be able to sharpen it again... I may have done that a time or two. Or more.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Mar 24, 2022)

scrappy said:


> , I could see the edge I had created. It was thicker in some parts and thinner in others, not dramatically so, but almost like a wave.


Variations in the bevel reveal width can be from different sharpening angles, but they can also be from differing thicknesses behind the edge (read grind) and can be corrected with thinning. 

As evidence, even a constant angle devise like Edge Pro or Wicked Edge can produce wavy bevel reveals if the grind behind the edge is inconsistent.


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## scrappy (Mar 25, 2022)

gaijin said:


> It is it's own form of meditation. Just wait until the day you take a perfectly fine knife and dull it down on purpose just to be able to sharpen it again... I may have done that a time or two. Or more.


i can totally see myself doing that. As I’ve mentioned before, I like baking, and I can see that sharpening will empty my mind like kneading dough. The only other thing that gives me the same feeling is fishing. If I had my life again, I’d be a fisherman. Fisherman need sharp knives, too. Also, bread and fish go well together, so I would still be able to knead. I would be in nirvana 


VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> Variations in the bevel reveal width can be from different sharpening angles, but they can also be from differing thicknesses behind the edge (read grind) and can be corrected with thinning.
> 
> As evidence, even a constant angle devise like Edge Pro or Wicked Edge can produce wavy bevel reveals if the grind behind the edge is inconsistent.


Thanks for the explanation. Very helpful. Given that I am a complete beginner, is it reasonable to assume that the wavy bevel is user error rather than an inconsistent grind? At this stage, the idea if thinning anything is quite intimidating.


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## Benuser (Mar 25, 2022)

When I started I made a few wedges — wood or cork — with an inclination that corresponds to common sharpening angles. 18, 15, 12, 8, 6, 2 degrees. For reference. To me it was very helpful. After a while I only used them very rarely.
As for thinning: any sharpening at a lower angle than used for the very edge is a form of thinning. I would first try to ease the shoulders the bevels have created. The shoulder is where bevel and face meet. Find out at which angle you hit the shoulder in the middle. You may use a fine stone to find out, and use a coarser one to really abrade a bit of steel.
No bad idea to start your following sharpenings at that low angle and increase it only little by little until you've reached the very edge. This to avoid thickening behind the edge that occurs when you only touch the very edge. The thickness behind the edge is critical for the blade's performance: much more than the sharpening angle you're using for the very edge.


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## Karinkharris (Mar 25, 2022)

Walla said:


> Another bit of advice...
> 
> Don't watch too many different videos by different people...pick one method and stick with it...
> 
> ...


A am agree with you. Different videos shows different methods of knife sharpening that can create confusion. Pick a method & study on that before applying it.


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## cotedupy (Mar 25, 2022)

scrappy said:


> I could see the edge I had created. It was thicker in some parts and thinner in others, not dramatically so, but almost like a wave.



Oh balls... I almost did a closeup of my knife in the vid to show this and say - don’t worry about it!

This kind of caidao always have very inconsistent grinds / thickness to the main bevel or face. You *will* get a wavy looking edge, especially if you’re sharpening below the factory angle.

All of mine have this to some degree, it’s highly unlikely to be an angle control thing.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Mar 25, 2022)

scrappy said:


> Thanks for the explanation. Very helpful. Given that I am a complete beginner, is it reasonable to assume that the wavy bevel is user error rather than an inconsistent grind? At this stage, the idea if thinning anything is quite intimidating.


I would not assume that the inconsistent bevel width is user error. It could be, but that would infer that you're making the same angle errors, in the same areas, somewhat consistently. Mainly I didn't want you blaming yourself for an issue that you likely weren't causing.

Don't worry about thinning and wavy bevels until you're ready to and just work on holding constant angles. Just thinking about the geometry of what is happening will help you understand a lot about what you're trying to do when you do start thinning. When you're ready to start thinning the wavy bevel reveals shows you where you need to concentrate your work.


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## deltaplex (Mar 25, 2022)

I'll add that it's very very hard with the knives you have to mess them up hand sharpening on stones in any way that's not easily fixable. I tend to dive faaaarrr into information with things like learning to sharpen (and I did!) but in practice it's pretty simple. Don't worry about making a mistake, just focus on gaining muscle memory/stamina in your sessions, verifying that you're raising a burr (then refine that down to a consistently sized burr), and working on de-burring/post de-burr refinement and you'll have better than ootb sharpness pretty much every time. How much further down the rabbit hole you go after that is up to you.


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## scrappy (Mar 25, 2022)

OK, I’m glad to report, today’s efforts were more successful. My cai dao is definitely sharper than it was OOTB. By the end, it would cut through A4 paper, although it felt like it might have been tearing slightly. I will see if I can improve the edge tomorrow. I had a few problems getting used to sharpening the flipside with my non-dominant hand, but it fell into place eventually. I used a Sharpie this time, so that helped. I also paid more attention to raising a burr. I finished by stropping on cardboard to deburr. All in all, I felt like I made some progress, which is always nice 


Benuser said:


> When I started I made a few wedges — wood or cork — with an inclination that corresponds to common sharpening angles. 18, 15, 12, 8, 6, 2 degrees. For reference. To me it was very helpful. After a while I only used them very rarely.
> As for thinning: any sharpening at a lower angle than used for the very edge is a form of thinning. I would first try to ease the shoulders the bevels have created. The shoulder is where bevel and face meet. Find out at which angle you hit the shoulder in the middle. You may use a fine stone to find out, and use a coarser one to really abrade a bit of steel.
> No bad idea to start your following sharpenings at that low angle and increase it only little by little until you've reached the very edge. This to avoid thickening behind the edge that occurs when you only touch the very edge. The thickness behind the edge is critical for the blade's performance: much more than the sharpening angle you're using for the very edge.View attachment 171611


Thanks this is really helpful information. Love the napkin diagram. It makes things a lot clearer for me. At the moment, I only have one stone, a Shapton Pro 1K. In a few months, or whenever I’m more proficient, I’ll add another finer grit stone, but until then I’ll be concentrating on the basics. Thanks again.


Karinkharris said:


> A am agree with you. Different videos shows different methods of knife sharpening that can create confusion. Pick a method & study on that before applying it.


I’ll definitely bear that in mind. Yes, two many methods will only create confusion. Thanks


cotedupy said:


> This kind of caidao always have very inconsistent grinds / thickness to the main bevel or face. You *will* get a wavy looking edge, especially if you’re sharpening below the factory angle.
> 
> All of mine have this to some degree, it’s highly unlikely to be an angle control thing.


Well, that’s reassuring. Even though I know my angle slipped at points, I won’t go chasing a perfectly straight bevel. Your video still helped a lot. Thanks.


VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> I would not assume that the inconsistent bevel width is user error. It could be, but that would infer that you're making the same angle errors, in the same areas, somewhat consistently. Mainly I didn't want you blaming yourself for an issue that you likely weren't causing.
> 
> Don't worry about thinning and wavy bevels until you're ready to and just work on holding constant angles. Just thinking about the geometry of what is happening will help you understand a lot about what you're trying to do when you do start thinning. When you're ready to start thinning the wavy bevel reveals shows you where you need to concentrate your work.


That’s good to know. I have never examined an edge so closely, so I wasn’t sure if this was to be expected. Yes, I will just focus on angles for now. Thanks to the fantastic input here, the theory is starting to make a lot more sense. I appreciate the advice.


deltaplex said:


> I'll add that it's very very hard with the knives you have to mess them up hand sharpening on stones in any way that's not easily fixable. I tend to dive faaaarrr into information with things like learning to sharpen (and I did!) but in practice it's pretty simple. Don't worry about making a mistake, just focus on gaining muscle memory/stamina in your sessions, verifying that you're raising a burr (then refine that down to a consistently sized burr), and working on de-burring/post de-burr refinement and you'll have better than ootb sharpness pretty much every time. How much further down the rabbit hole you go after that is up to you.


I was about to ask that exact question. Will I mess up my knives? But you answered it for me. Thank you. My angle consistency felt better today. One day at a time


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 25, 2022)

Good job! The off hand is always tough to learn. I sharpened for about for about 40 odd years with just my dominant hand and haven't been swapping for long and I still need to really focus.

I also agree with @VICTOR J CREAZZI that what you're seeing may well be manufacturing caused.

Remember, there will be set backs, just keep practicing and allow it to come over some time. And don't lie to yourself. If there isn't a full burr the entire length, don't pretend there is or that it will be okay. If it isn't as sharp as it should be, acknowledge that to yourself. It's easy to mislead yourself when you really want something to work out, especially when so many say it is so "easy", but don't do it. All of those things are what help you learn, adjust, and develop good habits.


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## scrappy (Mar 26, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Good job! The off hand is always tough to learn. I sharpened for about for about 40 odd years with just my dominant hand and haven't been swapping for long and I still need to really focus.
> 
> I also agree with @VICTOR J CREAZZI that what you're seeing may well be manufacturing caused.
> 
> Remember, there will be set backs, just keep practicing and allow it to come over some time. And don't lie to yourself. If there isn't a full burr the entire length, don't pretend there is or that it will be okay. If it isn't as sharp as it should be, acknowledge that to yourself. It's easy to mislead yourself when you really want something to work out, especially when so many say it is so "easy", but don't do it. All of those things are what help you learn, adjust, and develop good habits.


Thank you for the words of advice. I am not easily deterred. I know I’ll hit roadblocks, but I’m in it for the long haul. I‘ll get there in the end. In a sense, I am hypercritical of my efforts in many areas. For example, when I baked my first loaf, I immediately focused on what was wrong with it: the flavour, the crumb, the crust. My family were saying ”the bread’s fine”, as if the loaf being edible was the endgame. 

When it comes to my hobbies, good enough is never good enough for me. I did notice yesterday that the burr had small gaps in it, but I wasn’t sure whether I could easily correct the gaps without affecting the existing burr. I shall be more mindful of that when I next sharpen. Anyway, thanks again


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## deltaplex (Mar 26, 2022)

Gapping in the burr just means you need to work that area of the edge more/there's potentially an uneven grind or warp there.


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## psfred (Mar 26, 2022)

Sharpening by hand is unlikely to cause problems you can't fix easily, unlike using power tools where a slip can gouge out far more material in an incorrect spot that you would like to believe -- I'm a year and a half or more into re-grinding a yanagiba I seriously damaged on a belt grinder in just one light pass.

It takes time and practice to learn to sharpen, but if you feel your knife is sharper now than when you got it, you are on the right road. Heavy asian knives like my Korean "cow knife" can be very roughly manufactured. Has no influence at all on the quality of the edge or usability of the knife, but overgrinds, rough forging, and so forth are part of the experience. My very inexpensive Korean knife has forging scale on it, is very roughly ground on a coarse wheel, and has saw marks down the spine where it was band sawn from some sort of sheet steel (identified as "railroad steel", whatever that is). Obvious hammer marks from forging too. Not a pretty knfe, but it takes and holds a very fine edge and is first choice for slicing onions or cutting ribs, both of which it does with great ease.

A few more sharpenings and you will be getting very nice edges.


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## eltonmichael45 (May 1, 2022)

Walla said:


> Another bit of advice...
> 
> Don't watch too many different videos by different people...pick one method and stick with it...
> 
> ...


A bit of a newbie myself. That bit of advice is right on the mark for me. Thanks


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