# Knife looks vs performance



## jacko9 (May 1, 2016)

The quantity of outstanding looking knives available is just staggering but I wonder what am I paying for?

Is the price added premium for Damascus knives totally looks? Some of the top knife makers charge almost double for the Damascus version of their knives and I wanted to know if there is any enhanced performance with the Damascus layering to a knife with the same grind and edge steel?

My past simple minded thought about Damascus was a forging that was folder over and over by a blacksmith to refine the grain structure and develop better material properties. I recently realized that many (if not all) knife blacksmith buy steel mill blanks that are forged (or hot rolled or other consolidation process) at a supplier and forge that product to their perferred edge steel and treat with etches and polishing.

My question: is either the old folding over multiple times or the steel mill (damascus process) add value to the final product with better dimensional stability or enhansed mechanical properties? What are we paying for with the different knives - looks or performance?

Thanks for any insight on this topic,

Jack


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## chefcomesback (May 1, 2016)

Jack ,
Originally "Damascus " steel was made in crucibles and what you see is a treelike patterns that occurs during melting of iron ore with carbon and other alloys if present and forming steel . These patterns were determined by the smelting process and the style it was made . Damascus became the most famous one , although the ones in India were regarded as better steels.
Today especially in West pattern welded steel became "Damascus " . By forge welding one steel known for being tough to the less tough one you can increase the strength , however mostly it's done for the beauty And the cosmetic sides of it .
In Japan where the steel was smelted in Tatara you would get tamahagane. This steel contained trapped impurities and the carbon content varied , bladesmiths kept folding it to even out to carbon content and remove any impurities. After refining tamahagane you will get oroshigane which ready to turned Ito blade , it has visible layers but completely different process to modern pattern welded steel
When making a Damascus there is a risk of delamination and failure at each weld ,it takes time to prepare , you are loosing steel during the all drawing and restacking , Especially more in mosaic Damascus


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## fujiyama (May 1, 2016)

Just my thoughts, I'm no expert! 

99.9% of today's damascus knives are etched (as you know). This adds no performance or value. That said, reputable makers use good steels which are sandwiched resulting in a high quality edge. The softer outer steel is etched. It increases the price because of the tools, energy and labor involved. 

Then there's real damascus, which is valuable for being authentic. This is a complicated subject, I don't think anyone really knows how authentic damascus was made. It's believed to have originated in the Middle East, containing a combination of steels. Some steels degrade at different rates, so ancient swords are usually pitted and hard to study. A common belief is that they folded the different steels to create the damascus look.


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## jmgray (May 1, 2016)

From what I understand it is 99% about looks. The "damascus process" is referred to as pattern welding I beleive. A lot of damascus knives are San-mai so the cladding is damascus and not the core steel. The more knowledgeable people will be along shortly to give you a better answer.


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## rami_m (May 1, 2016)

Ah, but what if you have 3 knifes made by the same smith. One San mai, one Damascus and one mono steel. Would they preform differently? Would they sharpen differently? Assuming same grind and f&f

Personally i would go for the San mai stainless clad. Easier to maintain so to me there is a difference. The other two not so much I have found.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 1, 2016)

No expert but etching would help with reactivity and possibly stiction and/or drag in use. I asked Watanabe about his Damascus (kintaro-ame) and it is more than just for looks (similar to why Shigefusa made Kitaeji cladding and what Mert said).

With a monosteel (not cladded) Damascus I suppose the different steels would wear differently so you'd get micro serrations on the edge?


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## fujiyama (May 1, 2016)

Etching could help reduce drag and stiction now that I think about it. I guess it depends on how deeply the knife was etched (along with the grind of the knife), so the difference may be subjective. 

Can you (or anyone) further explain reactivity? I assume you're referring to reducing it.


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## MAS4T0 (May 2, 2016)

miyabi said:


> Can you (or anyone) further explain reactivity? I assume you're referring to reducing it.



I know you weren't asking me, but yes etching will reduce reactivity. When you etch a blade you're forming a more stable oxide, which will reduce the reactivity - as a transition metal, iron has variable oxidation states and by forming a stable oxide you can make it less reactive than raw iron. Etching is basically an extreme (and more permanent) example of a "forced patina".


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## MAS4T0 (May 2, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> My question: is either the old folding over multiple times or the steel mill (damascus process) add value to the final product with better dimensional stability or enhansed mechanical properties? What are we paying for with the different knives - looks or performance?



The main reason for why I would go for damascus is because it is usually the most premium option offered and therefore I would assume (possibly incorrectly) that you'll be getting the best example of the maker's work.

I would assume that core-less damascus (consisting on different steels) would perform worse than a straight steel core, as the heat treatment could not be perfected for both materials (but this would obviously depend on the specific materials and smith).

I have heard many note the possibility of micro-serrations, due to the different wear rate of the two materials, but couldn't a similar effect be achieved on a mono-steel knife by simply using a coarser stone to finish? If we assume (for the sake of argument) that a 250mm blade has 1000 layers (perpendicular to the edge), that would make each layer an average thickness of 0.25mm (250 µm). If I'm not mistaken, 250 µm is about equivalent to 60 grit! (I would assume that nobody here would want their edge to be that course)

In any case, I wouldn't choose core-less damascus for a daily use knife as keeping it looking pristine (with regular sharpening) would be more work than I care for. That's not to say that I don't like core-less damascus, I do intend to buy some examples this year, but I'm not expecting improved performance on account of damascus.

*At this point I have ZERO personal experience with core-less damascus kitchen knives*


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## malexthekid (May 2, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> The main reason for why I would go for damascus is because it is usually the most premium option offered and therefore I would assume (possibly incorrectly) that you'll be getting the best example of the maker's work.
> 
> I would assume that core-less damascus (consisting on different steels) would perform worse than a straight steel core, as the heat treatment could not be perfected for both materials (but this would obviously depend on the specific materials and smith).
> 
> ...



You will tend to find that most smiths pick the steels which will HT basically the same. Read the below post from Del about this.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/897-A-bit-about-the-damascus-I-make


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## CutFingers (May 2, 2016)

It's all in the heat treat, there is no performance benefit. If you dig the looks and want to pay a premium to a artist blade maker, by all means go for it. But there is no reason to consider a bland looking blade over a beautiful blade. The tool is what is important. Have fun.


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## jacko9 (May 2, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> The main reason for why I would go for damascus is because it is usually the most premium option offered and therefore I would assume (possibly incorrectly) that you'll be getting the best example of the maker's work.
> 
> I would assume that core-less damascus (consisting on different steels) would perform worse than a straight steel core, as the heat treatment could not be perfected for both materials (but this would obviously depend on the specific materials and smith).
> 
> ...



Interesting but isn't Honyaki a mono steel heat treated with clays to get differential properties? If this can be done with a mono steel forging why not a multiple folded layer steel? Perhaps - the Honyaki is in fact what I'm asking about but without the damascus appearance? Premium offerings or etching of the top layer don't seem to give a definitive example of improved quality since you could also etch any knife and achieve the same surface morphology (as far as friction, etc).

I'm still looking for that example where a multiple layer construction is superior to San mai construction for performance. I would suspect that a San mai construction is superior as far as interfacial layer defects go since there are many fewer layers to have defects?

The only thing that I can think of for multiple layer construction is analogous to plywood in the furniture construction where multiple layers even out the overall stresses compared to solid wood construction.

Good input and I thank all that have contributed.

Jack


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## aboynamedsuita (May 2, 2016)

Here's a thread about the coreless Damascus and "micro serrations". It's about a Shun (no surprise here) so may be a marketing gimmick:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...e-Knives-does-the-description-even-make-sense


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## MAS4T0 (May 9, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> Interesting but isn't Honyaki a mono steel heat treated with clays to get differential properties? If this can be done with a mono steel forging why not a multiple folded layer steel? Perhaps - the Honyaki is in fact what I'm asking about but without the damascus appearance? Premium offerings or etching of the top layer don't seem to give a definitive example of improved quality since you could also etch any knife and achieve the same surface morphology (as far as friction, etc).
> 
> I'm still looking for that example where a multiple layer construction is superior to San mai construction for performance. I would suspect that a San mai construction is superior as far as interfacial layer defects go since there are many fewer layers to have defects?
> 
> ...



Hi Jack,

Yes, honyaki is indeed mono-steel (or more broadly "maru") - it is hard(enable) steel all the way through, but isn't necessarily mono-steel; a core-less damascus blade can be honyaki.

Honyaki are generally taken to significantly higher hardness (at the edge) than standard monoseel blades of the same material; the differential heat treatment helps to offset the brittleness (to avoid the blade snapping). Honyaki only really makes sense functionally (to me) on a single bevel blade, where chipping of the edge is not an issue, but warping (of a laminated blade) would be a concern.

Steel and wood do not behave the same way. Due to grain, cross lamination is an excellent way to increase strength, stability and durability of wood - the same technique is a vital part of carbon fibre lay-up (especially in the case of uni-directyional fabric) and other materials with parallel strands. Metals though do not have strands or grain in the same way as wood or carbon fibre and the grain/ microstructure of the metal is determined by heat treatment and forging methods rather than lay-up orientation.


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## MAS4T0 (May 9, 2016)

*I kept writing but missed the edit window*

I would say that functionally San-Mai is the best method of construction for a double bevel blade. You are choosing materials based on their specific needs and constructing a composite material which best meets those needs. The cladding needs to be easily abraded (for easy grinding, thinning and refinishing) so a soft material with low abrasion resistance is ideal, while the edge needs a hard steel which can take a fine edge and hold it for a long time. A super wear resistant stainless could be ideal as a core material, but would be horrible for cladding. You can't ideally meet both the cladding and edge material requirements with a standard core-less damascus billet, as the same material is being used for both the core and cladding. A composite damascus blade (hard damascus core, with soft damascus cladding) as produced by Will Catcheside is superior to straight core-less damascus, as the different parts can be optimised for their different needs, but it still would not be functionally different to a standard San-Mai blade for the reasons explained above.

Combining various steels (into damascus) was a useful technique in the past, and still is a great way to show artistry and skill, but it is not necessary to get the best performance. If for instance you determined that 1080 was the perfect steel for a component you were making, a combination of 1095 and 1050 in a 2:1 ratio, folded repeatedly would get you pretty much there, but you do have the option to buy straight 1080 so there's no need.


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## Chef_ (May 9, 2016)

in my opinion (which are mostly unpopular ones on this site) is that 400-500 dollars is the ceiling of performance, after that youre mostly paying for looks,customiztion,


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## MAS4T0 (May 9, 2016)

Chef_ said:


> in my opinion (which are mostly unpopular ones on this site) is that 400-500 dollars is the ceiling of performance, after that youre mostly paying for looks,customiztion,



Nah.

Like with anything, there's definitely diminishing returns (and by $500 you certainly are a fair bit over to the right of the bell curve), but I've never come across a $500 knife that was on par with a great $1.5k knife (though whether the slight increased preference is worth the vastly increased price is a different matter).

That's not to say that all knives priced at $1.5k or above are worth their price tag (especially not in terms of pure performance), but if you're going for pure preference, the best of the litter at $1.5k does outperform the best at $500.

With a higher price tag, the maker can take more time on it, allowing him to work more slowly (and carefully) and maintain better quality control (to make sure you don't get a lemon).

If we were talking about the difference between a $10k and a $50k kitchen knife, I would certainly agree with you.


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## spoiledbroth (May 9, 2016)

I think all this obsession about performance is for naught if you don't have skill enough on the cutting board or on the stone to realize the knife's full potential. I'm not trying to be harsh when I say... most people don't have great knife skills, in my experience. Now, how many knife nerds do I know... not very many. But even my experience in most professional kitchens has been less than impressive.

I'm generally unconcerned with the way a knife looks but I'm fairly resistant to the idea of paying "extra" for aesthetic upgrades.


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## Chef_ (May 9, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> Nah.
> 
> Like with anything, there's definitely diminishing returns (and by $500 you certainly are a fair bit over to the right of the bell curve), but I've never come across a $500 knife that was on par with a great $1.5k knife (though whether the slight increased preference is worth the vastly increased price is a different matter).
> 
> ...



hmmm, my $300 ginga already cuts like a lightsaber, i cant even imagine that there are better performing knives out there.


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## DamageInc (May 9, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> I think all this obsession about performance is for naught if you don't have skill enough on the cutting board or on the stone to realize the knife's full potential. I'm not trying to be harsh when I say... most people don't have great knife skills, in my experience. Now, how many knife nerds do I know... not very many. But even my experience in most professional kitchens has been less than impressive.



That's something I've definitely noticed as well. I've seen people with very expensive and rare knives that have no idea how to use them. Many with average skill at best.

I do believe that you should purchase and enjoy whatever you want, but you shouldn't pretend that your knife skills suddenly improve after a hefty emptying of wallet. I can brunoise carrots better with a four star Zwilling than 90% of the cooks I've met can with any super-performance custom whatever gyuto. A good knife in the hands of a mediocre cook results in mediocre prep work.


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## DamageInc (May 9, 2016)

Chef_ said:


> hmmm, my $300 ginga already cuts like a lightsaber, i cant even imagine that there are better performing knives out there.



Your imagination is very limited. You can have better edge retention than your Ginga. You can have better food separation. Better non-stick qualities.

Just because you have a nice knife does not mean that nicer (or different) knives don't exist.


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## Godslayer (May 9, 2016)

I'm actually going to agree with chef large in principal, there are a few makers who can make knives better than kato,shig,heiji,toyama,watanabe,ginga,tanaka,takamura such as Bill burke, rader, lisch and Kramer but their 2k+ price points can't be justified by performance alone as they only cut slightly better than the knives listed above. It isn't the same jump as a $150 henckles to a $500 tanaka r2, the only real exception to this rule is the yanagi where a $1500 honyaki made by a skilled craftsmen will demolish a $400-$500 yanagi. Even a good one made by heiji, tanaka or a cheapo doi. Mainly because the blade won't warp and the blade will have significantly better heat treat and grind. That being said you can get a pretty good honyaki yanagi for $750 where the gap in performance would be significantly less noticable if it was noticeable at all. Please keep in mind I've only handled a Burke none of the others(that being said I will one day buy one) and have a few knives worth over $500 but they weren't bought to be performers at work. More or less functional art pieces I have on display and occasionally use for special occasions. But for 100% of chefs spending over $500 on a knife for performance is just plain silly. Don't get me wrong I love my takamura and kujira knives but I didn't buy them because they cut well I bought them because they were special and I wanted something special. Same reason I recently a HHH damascus blade. That costs 4 figures I wanted a show pony to add to my colection, I have a mono steel HHH for work.


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## MAS4T0 (May 9, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> I think all this obsession about performance is for naught if you don't have skill enough on the cutting board or on the stone to realize the knife's full potential. I'm not trying to be harsh when I say... most people don't have great knife skills, in my experience. Now, how many knife nerds do I know... not very many. But even my experience in most professional kitchens has been less than impressive.
> 
> I'm generally unconcerned with the way a knife looks but I'm fairly resistant to the idea of paying "extra" for aesthetic upgrades.



I'm not going to deny that you could probably get better performance out of a $200 knife than I can from a $1k knife, but I can certainly feel (and do appreciate) the difference.

It's like with anything. You don't have to be a pro-cyclist to feel the difference between an average and pro-tour level bike, and obviously a pro racer on a cheap commuter bike would leave you in the dust on your $5k TDF replica.

BUT, if YOU can feel the difference (which anyone will, irrespective of skill level) and it makes your cycling more enjoyable then you are better off with the better bike (even if you don't need it).

It's not like a high performance motorcycle where you'll probably kill yourself if you dive in at the deep end and don't have something that suits your skills.


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## Chef_ (May 9, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> That's something I've definitely noticed as well. I've seen people with very expensive and rare knives that have no idea how to use them. Many with average skill at best.
> 
> I do believe that you should purchase and enjoy whatever you want, but you shouldn't pretend that your knife skills suddenly improve after a hefty emptying of wallet. I can brunoise carrots better with a four star Zwilling than 90% of the cooks I've met can with any super-performance custom whatever gyuto. A good knife in the hands of a mediocre cook results in mediocre prep work.



People just dont want to take the time to develop a foundation anymore. thats what happens when you have no patience and try to progress yourself too quickly, you end up mediocre, instead of mastering basic skills first. My first few months of working in a kitchen i obsessed over developing my knife skills, I did nothing else except cut onions and peppers all day. I didnt even think about cooking anything, i only thought of how to get better cuts on my onions and peppers. After work i went to the grocery store and bought bags of vegetables to practice cutting up at home. Thats why now after cooking for about a year i have better knife skills than some cooks 5 years+ experience


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## Chef_ (May 9, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> Your imagination is very limited. You can have better edge retention than your Ginga. You can have better food separation. Better non-stick qualities.
> 
> Just because you have a nice knife does not mean that nicer (or different) knives don't exist.



I never thought of food stiction as a big deal honestly, and edge retention doesnt matter all that much when i like to take my knife to a 6000 everyday anyway. You sound a little offended??


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## DamageInc (May 9, 2016)

Don't throw that word at me. It's a childish ad hominem. I'm just telling you that your Ginga, while being a premium knife, is not the greatest in the universe, and you saying that you can't even imagine something being better is either wrong, or just short-sighted. You not caring about or putting much value in advantages of other knives does not mean they aren't there.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 9, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I'm not going to deny that you could probably get better performance out of a $200 knife than I can from a $1k knife, but I can certainly feel (and do appreciate) the difference.
> 
> It's like with anything. You don't have to be a pro-cyclist to feel the difference between an average and pro-tour level bike, and obviously a pro racer on a cheap commuter bike would leave you in the dust on your $5k TDF replica.
> 
> ...



You sound like a two wheel junkie. I like the BIEN channel here it has Moto GP, now they have the Giro di'Italia spint stages I like the mountains. After that Tour de France stuff that would seem boring to non two wheel folks.


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## Mucho Bocho (May 9, 2016)

Chef_ Damage does know a little about knife skills. I think we'd all like to see you with a knife in hand cutting. 

https://youtu.be/-FMAS29zSpE


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## DamageInc (May 9, 2016)

I'm not calling anyone's knife skills into question, just the arguments presented.


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## MAS4T0 (May 9, 2016)

keithsaltydog said:


> You sound like a two wheel junkie. I like the BIEN channel here it has Moto GP, now they have the Giro di'Italia spint stages I like the mountains. After that Tour de France stuff that would seem boring to non two wheel folks.



You got me!


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## rami_m (May 9, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> That's something I've definitely noticed as well. I've seen people with very expensive and rare knives that have no idea how to use them. Many with average skill at best.
> 
> I do believe that you should purchase and enjoy whatever you want, but you shouldn't pretend that your knife skills suddenly improve after a hefty emptying of wallet. I can brunoise carrots better with a four star Zwilling than 90% of the cooks I've met can with any super-performance custom whatever gyuto. A good knife in the hands of a mediocre cook results in mediocre prep work.



Well. Even so, a better knife would make things easier for a mediocre cook. I admit that they would less difference the less skilled you are. But they still do.


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## DamageInc (May 9, 2016)

You are correct, I should have elaborated.


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## fujiyama (May 9, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> That's something I've definitely noticed as well. I've seen people with very expensive and rare knives that have no idea how to use them. Many with average skill at best.



I watched a video today on the Tube of a Dalman 210, and it was very painful to watch the poor vegetables suffer.. yet I couldn't stop watching. :lol2: As the grand slam, he cut himself at the end. 

I see some funny things in restaurants too.


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## spoiledbroth (May 9, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I'm not going to deny that you could probably get better performance out of a $200 knife than I can from a $1k knife, but I can certainly feel (and do appreciate) the difference.
> 
> It's like with anything. You don't have to be a pro-cyclist to feel the difference between an average and pro-tour level bike, and obviously a pro racer on a cheap commuter bike would leave you in the dust on your $5k TDF replica.
> 
> ...


In light of a new job I've gotten I'd say I have no skills XD but there are guys who can bust out see through slices of radish with an over sharpened un thinned kikuichi ss suji en masse like nobody's business and who don't think twice about buying victorinox. It's all relative I suppose, there will always be somebody better. But cutting netta ebi alone I think would frustrate the hell out of most people here.


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## Chef_ (May 9, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> Don't throw that word at me. It's a childish ad hominem. I'm just telling you that your Ginga, while being a premium knife, is not the greatest in the universe, and you saying that you can't even imagine something being better is either wrong, or just short-sighted. You not caring about or putting much value in advantages of other knives does not mean they aren't there.



I was just appreciating the value of my own knife, not to take away the value of other knives.


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## Chef_ (May 9, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Chef_ Damage does know a little about knife skills. I think we'd all like to see you with a knife in hand cutting.
> 
> https://youtu.be/-FMAS29zSpE



looks pretty clean


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## DamageInc (May 9, 2016)

miyabi said:


> I watched a video today on the Tube of a Dalman 210, and it was very painful to watch the poor vegetables suffer.. yet I couldn't stop watching. :lol2: As the grand slam, he cut himself at the end.
> 
> I see some funny things in restaurants too.



Oh man I just found that video. A serious lack of training for such a nice knife. Can't even cut carrots properly...


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## RDalman (May 9, 2016)

I believe he had just gotten it, and was having fun


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## DamageInc (May 9, 2016)

That's very generous of you.


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## jacko9 (May 9, 2016)

He did say that the onions were quite volatile - great video!


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## DamageInc (May 10, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> He did say that the onions were quite volatile - great video!



I think you have the videos mixed up. You are referring to a video demo of first time use of a 240mm Kato.

We are talking about this video: [video=youtube;27cmqyWAykk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27cmqyWAykk[/video]


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## spoiledbroth (May 10, 2016)

The music choice was very suitable XD


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## MAS4T0 (May 10, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> The music choice was very suitable XD



The music reminds me of a game I used to play as a kid called, 'James Pond Robocod'.

I don't think he did a bad job of showing off the knife and demonstrating it's capabilities, you can certainly tell it's grind performs very well.


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## DamageInc (May 10, 2016)

You sure that wasn't just because he accordion's every cut so the produce stays on the board? Not doubting Dalman's grind or anything, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.


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## Dan P. (May 10, 2016)

If I may dip back into the "micro serration" discussion, I am reminded of how shear steel was favoured in the manufacture of scythes in this country for that very reason, though it's hard to think of two cutting edges further apart in almost every way than a scythe and a kitchen knife.


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## jessf (May 10, 2016)

It seems as though knowledge and skill can outshine the lack of performance in any tool. I would, and will, pay for aesthetics AND performance. I enjoy the art form as much as I enjoy the practical and to me they are equally important in improving my skills. If a knife makes me want to pick it up and use it, then my skills can only improve.


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## MAS4T0 (May 10, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> You sure that wasn't just because he accordion's every cut so the produce stays on the board?



I noticed that, but there were a few that weren't accordions, and you can see from those that the grind performs well.


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## XooMG (May 10, 2016)

If one wants to show off the performance, trying to run through things recklessly is not the best way to do it. I got very little from that video besides the impression that the wielder was inebriated. I mean it's just good fun I'm sure, but it's not an especially helpful video.


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## Sharpchef (May 10, 2016)

As beeing a pro chef and hobby blacksmith, with a little knowledge about steel, damascus etc..... I think there are very few knifemakers who build/forge really good damascus steel blades. The majority that using a good and a second class steel just for optical purpose (Mn/Ni Steel). 

If a very good Bladesmith would use maybe Aogami Super and White 1, with no failure and optimum heat treatment, the blade would be better then the singel steel version, performance wise...... 

I own a few damascus steel blades, and only the ones from the really good Blacksmith`S combined with very good steel can match up with monosteel knives. 2 off them are better then the monosteel version of same steel. 

The main problem is, it needs really hard training to get to the point when a damascus steel beats a monosteel, nowadays.

And no matter how good the Knifemaker is, a combination out of 1095/15Ni20 or 1080/15Ni20 will show only good contrast and will be never as good as a 1095 honyaki blade..... This combination gives just a good contrast, nothing more. Nice looking, bad performing.... Blade. In most cases it will be even worse then a med. heat treated knife out of 1095 only.

Greets Sebastian.


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## jacko9 (May 10, 2016)

Thanks Sebastian,

Do you know of any Bladesmiths that actually produce a product like you describe (Aogami Super and White #1)?

Jack


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## XooMG (May 10, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> Thanks Sebastian,
> 
> Do you know of any Bladesmiths that actually produce a product like you describe (Aogami Super and White #1)?
> 
> Jack


I do not want to get involved in steel talk, but I recommend disregarding everything Sebastian said.


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## mikedtran (May 10, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> Thanks Sebastian,
> 
> Do you know of any Bladesmiths that actually produce a product like you describe (Aogami Super and White #1)?
> 
> Jack



Firstly I'm unsure if Aogami and White #1 have similar heattreating temperatures to make that feasible.

Secondly, not exactly what you are looking for, but there are other non-japanese steel high performance damascus. The thing to know about these damascus is that they won't be high contrast (which I think is a benefit actually). I much prefer the subtle pattern.

Walter Sorrell who primarily does swords will do 1095 and 1050 which is going to be higher performing than the 15ni20 combos.

Cris Anderson is going to do a high performance damascus of W2 and 1095 for me and a couple of the guys here. Jack if you are interested in that send me a pm.


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## jacko9 (May 10, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> Firstly I'm unsure if Aogami and White #1 have similar heattreating temperatures to make that feasible.
> 
> Secondly, not exactly what you are looking for, but there are other non-japanese steel high performance damascus. The thing to know about these damascus is that they won't be high contrast (which I think is a benefit actually). I much prefer the subtle pattern.
> 
> ...



While I'm not necessarily interested in the damascus look the high performance knife that Cris Anderson is making sounds interesting. I think that what I'm really looking for is one of those knifes that have a great grind and great steel heat treated optimally. If JNS sent out an email with a Kato 240mm Gyuto I would buy it at once ;-)

Jack


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## MAS4T0 (May 10, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> Thanks Sebastian,
> 
> Do you know of any Bladesmiths that actually produce a product like you describe (Aogami Super and White #1)?
> 
> Jack



I would be interested in this too, it seems to me like a very odd combination. Shirogami and Aogami Super are very different steels and a combination won't give the best of both. A composite edge of the two would basically mute the defining characteristics of each respective steel - the ASS would mean that sharpening is more difficult and time consuming than with straight Shirogami, while the Shirogami would mean that you wouldn't get the edge retention and durability of pure ASS.


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## jacko9 (May 10, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I would be interested in this too, it seems to me like a very odd combination. Shirogami and Aogami Super are very different steels and a combination won't give the best of both. A composite edge of the two would basically mute the defining characteristics of each respective steel - the ASS would mean that sharpening is more difficult and time consuming than with straight Shirogami, while the Shirogami would mean that you wouldn't get the edge retention and durability of pure ASS.



I beleive that Sebastian was giving a hypothetical whereas two highly prized steels could be married for an optimized performance knife instead of a great visual knife. It would almost surely be two or more other steel types.


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## MAS4T0 (May 10, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> I beleive that Sebastian was giving a hypothetical whereas two highly prized steels could be married for an optimized performance knife instead of a great visual knife. It would almost surely be two or more other steel types.



I'm not sure what the intention was, but a mix of Aogami and Shirogami is not ideal. I'll rephrase. In order to get "high performance damascus" you need 2 (or more) steels which are as similar to one another as possible in everything other than the way they react to an etchant. You need them to heat-treat the same way, you need them to sharpen the same way and respond to the same stone progression, you need them to have similar edge holding, etc.

If you are mixing two very similar steels in order to create "high performance damascus" (such as 1080 and 1095), the blade will (ideally) perform similarly to a blade made in either one of those steels straight (not better). If on the other hand you are mixing 2 dissimilar steels (to form damascus) you will undoubtedly get the worst of each and not the best. I think the Aogami/ Shirogami mix (even as a thought experiment) expresses this well, as you would not get the ease of sharpening or Shirogami combined with the edge holding and durability of Aogami; you would get the opposite (lowest common denominator or put another way, the chain is only as strong as it's weakest link).

The only way you get the best from 2 dissimilar steels in through lamination. San-Mai places different steels in different parts of the blade, where the material requirements are different (as opposed to mixing them up throughout the whole knife or along the edge).


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## Dan P. (May 10, 2016)

Interesting. Why do you think this mixture wouldn't give a knife that held an edge quite well but wasn't too hard to sharpen?
Seems it could go either way?
I must try it out some time!


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## MAS4T0 (May 10, 2016)

Dan P. said:


> Interesting. Why do you think this mixture wouldn't give a knife that held an edge quite well but wasn't too hard to sharpen?
> Seems it could go either way?
> I must try it out some time!



Well, the Aogami Super is harder to sharpen than Shirogami, and if the edge does contain Aogami Super in addition to Shirogami you have to sharpen Aogami Super and not just Shirogami - so it will be harder to sharpen than straight Shirogami.

In the same vein, there is Shirogami in the edge, so once you've got it sharp it won't hold it as long as pure Aogami Super (as the Shirogami will dull faster). Maybe YMMV, but I feel the need to sharpen as soon as it's not sharp along the entire edge, so a steel in the mix (along the edge) with poorer retention will mean more frequent sharpening.

This is of also assuming that they will both respond well to the same heat treatment (which probably isn't the case).

*EDIT*

I'm not saying that it would be hard to sharpen and not hold an edge, it should hold an edge quite well and be quite easy to sharpen, it just wouldn't be as easy to sharpen as pure Shirogami and wouldn't hold the edge as well as pure Aogami Super.


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## Dan P. (May 10, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I'm not saying that it would be hard to sharpen and not hold an edge, it should hold an edge quite well and be quite easy to sharpen, it just wouldn't be as easy to sharpen as pure Shirogami and wouldn't hold the edge as well as pure Aogami Super.



Yes, both pros and cons are compromised or ameliorated, respectively. Isn't that the point? Or one of the points?


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## MAS4T0 (May 10, 2016)

Dan P. said:


> Yes, both pros and cons are compromised or ameliorated, respectively. Isn't that the point? Or one of the points?



The point I was making is that if performance is the primary goal, it's better achieved by choosing an alloy with the characteristics you want, rather than trying to get there by combining materials via layering. You can choose an alloy which is easier to sharpen than Aogami Super and with better edge retention that Shirogami.

A combination of the two (to me) lacks the magic of both. I can put an edge on Shirogami in moments, while I can maintain an edge on Aogami Super for over a year (of home use) with only occasional stropping. I like the different character of the 2 steels and would rather have either one in it's pure form than in a blend with the other. I was simply trying to express that you won't get alchemic magic in which the best aspects of both steels are brought into play, you'll simply get an average of the two; in which case you might as well use two steels which are more similar to one another and are each closer to the average you're trying to achieve - that way their respective heat treatment requirements will likely fall closer in line with one another.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 10, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> Walter Sorrell who primarily does swords will do 1095 and 1050 which is going to be higher performing than the 15ni20 combos.
> 
> Cris Anderson is going to do a high performance damascus of W2 and 1095 for me and a couple of the guys here. Jack if you are interested in that send me a pm.



Gonna be epic


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## Sharpchef (May 11, 2016)

:wink: My opionion was only hypothetic! AS and Shiro 1 woun`t be the best.....

I got a gyuto out of 1.2562 (similar to F2 Toolsteel) and 1.2767 (a tought nickel alloy) with about 500 layers. This knive has the best edge retention so far. I really love sharp edges, with this one i can cut aggressive for about 1 week in pro kitchen, without an touch up. After one or two days the edge seems to be a micro saw, with still very good cutting ability.
For comparison a monosteel 1.2562 (F2) Gyuto cuts well for about 2 days without touchups. And this one of the best edge retention steels out there (maybe there are some PM steels that perform better.....).

A Blacksmith in Switzerland even combines 1.2562/1.2008 (F2/Filesteel) with very good results.

Even combinations like the mentioned W2 and 1095 will outperform the standart damascus combos.

The folding process is very hard to do with so much tungsten (up to 4 %) and about 1,5% C, in case of the F2 Toolsteel.

Greets Sebastian.


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## malexthekid (May 11, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> :wink: My opionion was only hypothetic! AS and Shiro 1 woun`t be the best.....
> 
> I got a gyuto out of 1.2562 (similar to F2 Toolsteel) and 1.2767 (a tought nickel alloy) with about 500 layers. This knive has the best edge retention so far. I really love sharp edges, with this one i can cut aggressive for about 1 week in pro kitchen, without an touch up. After one or two days the edge seems to be a micro saw, with still very good cutting ability.
> For comparison a monosteel 1.2562 (F2) Gyuto cuts well for about 2 days without touchups. And this one of the best edge retention steels out there (maybe there are some PM steels that perform better.....).
> ...



What are these standard damascus types you talk of?


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## malexthekid (May 11, 2016)

Meant to add that the micro-serration you talk of is caused by an "imperfect" match. One steel wears quicker than the othet


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## Sharpchef (May 11, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> What are these standard damascus types you talk of?



In Germany we mainly use 1.2842 (manganese knife steel) and 15Ni20(Ni) steels, for nice contrast in the damascus. This combination is a little tougher then maybe 1095/Ni20, the manganese content is very good for the heat treatment/througoutly hardening. And it is quite "easy" to forge/weld..., just as 1095/15Ni20.



> Meant to add that the micro-serration you talk of is caused by an "imperfect" match. One steel wears quicker than the othet



This is the sense of the combination, the 1.2562 reaches about 67 HRC after tempering, the other steel is about 60 HRC, so it wears quicker and what i got is an edge that cuts like a sharp saw. In this particular knife there are three parts of 1.2562 and only one part of 1.2767, so 3/4 of the blade stays sharp very long, and the other 1/4 gets dull quicker, witch leads to an enormous edge retention. The maker did me a test knife of this damascus, and i had never thougt that it would be better then the 1.2562 as a monosteel blade, but it is much better!. + With a little amount of Chromium, these Damascus is nearly stainless after etching.....

If i take a Kato (just for comparison, as some of you got Kato knives) to my workingplace the sharpness lasts for about a half day. With my performance damascus blade (Xerxes Knives.de) i can reach up too 5 days of good cutting performance.

Greets Sebastian.


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## malexthekid (May 11, 2016)

If that Kato only lasts half a day compared to 5 for your other knife then i bet the kato sharpens so much easier.

You will also find that tbe serration is what is providing you the extra edge "life" which is fine for some uses but not others.

It ultimately comes down to what qualities do you want? Sharpenability or edge retention. I have a Ealy gyuto which i think he uses 01 and L6 for the layers. Great knife. Great retention (at least in a home environment)

And i am willing to bet that your damascus blade materials weren't chosen for their abilities together but rather that your maker was proficient in heat treating one of the steels so he chose another similar steel with a higher nickel content (or similar) for the contrast.

You don't want drastic difference in hardness where you are using damascus solid or core knives becaude they will wear (sharpen) drastically differently.

Again i point to the thread of Del Ealy's i posted earlier. Go have a read. He talks about steel choices for damascus. Why combinations are chosen.


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## Sharpchef (May 12, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> If that Kato only lasts half a day compared to 5 for your other knife then i bet the kato sharpens so much easier.
> 
> You will also find that tbe serration is what is providing you the extra edge "life" which is fine for some uses but not others.
> 
> ...



The combination was choosen because of, the less diffusion of Carbon, maybe Chromium has a role....and just for the saw like cutting edge.
While the 1.2562 `s (Monotsteel) sharpening ability is a bit more difficult then maybe Shirogami (or Kato Special Steel), this will be never a reasonable thing for choosing a steel with easy sharpening attitudes...... I Use DMT / Chosera / Ohira/Okudo Suita Stones, and with my Equipment i don`t feel big difference betwen lets say Shirogami and AS.
The little difference, as i only touchup (mainly Chosera 5k, sometimes Ohira Suita) are just a few seconds, nothing to worry about. 

Btw. the Damascus out of 1.2562/1.2767 sharpens nearly as quickly as a Aogami knive. Not as easy as the Kato Steel........ for shure. But only a few passes more for the same result.

I will read the Dealy Damascus thread, can you point me to it?

Greets Sebastian.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 12, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> I will read the Dealy Damascus thread, can you point me to it?



Have a look at these two links about coreless Damascus:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/897-A-bit-about-the-damascus-I-make

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...e-Knives-does-the-description-even-make-sense


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## natto (May 13, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> The combination was choosen because of, the less diffusion of Carbon, maybe Chromium has a role....and just for the saw like cutting edge.


Nice idea!


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## Sharpchef (May 13, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Have a look at these two links about coreless Damascus:
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/897-A-bit-about-the-damascus-I-make
> 
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...e-Knives-does-the-description-even-make-sense



Nice threads! nothing wrong about it, but only grade steels for their hardening in water/oil/air is just too simple! Nearly every bladesmith in germany hardens in oil, why we should use water?, there is maybe a advantage of 0,5 - 1 HRC more, but we can control the resulting hardness by tempering. Every combination would act differently, while some steels give up C to the other, others would not, maybe the same with all other elements.

I remember a discussion about tungsten steels, some american bladesmiths do a few years ago, to find something similar to AS, and i think they would love to get their hands on stuff like 1.2562/F2.

Btw. a few years ago i discussed with Roman Landes about performance damascus, his favorite would be 1.2002/1.2510 combo, this time. And after very much emails with really good bladesmiths like Achim Wirtz, Koraat, Xerxes, Uli Hennicke i decidet to go the way with Xerxes, and this is the real deal, at least for me.

While recognizing the origin of this thread, my knife is both, very good looking and performing!

@Natto: Yes indeed.... And it works well:wink:

Greets Sebastian.


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## Sharpchef (May 13, 2016)

To come back to topic, here are a few bad pics, my main gear.


















There are Kato (original, not the crappy Workhorse series, i own the 270mm gyuto of JNS Workhorse series, but the 240mm Kato is way better), a selfmade 250mm Gyuto, in about Kato geometry, and the suspect my Knechter 310mm Damascus)

So if we talk about good looking knives, Kato and my selfmade are finished like dirt, but they work good, just performers, anyway Japanese steel is not performing well, just gets very sharp..........) When i compare my selfmade to my two Kato knives, they don`T see the sun.Cutting performance is nearly the same, but edge retention is quite laughable at the Kato knives. They sharpening is easy compared to this selfmade one, but there is no point to compare 1 minute touchup to 2 minutes touchup with the same result and an edge that lasts up to 4 times longer......

Compared to the professionally made Xerxes Knechter (the Damascus one) they both see no land! Means the right steel in the right hands can make a knife that is far superior.

Greets Sebastian.


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## Karnstein (May 13, 2016)

Wastl, you should either show off one of the pictures that Xerxes made or (to not violate any board rules), simply offer a link to the topic at messerforum. Because those pictures you've shown don't really show of the Knechter in all its size and glory...


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## Iggy (May 13, 2016)

Karnstein said:


> Wastl, you should either show off one of the pictures that Xerxes made or (to not violate any board rules), simply offer a link to the topic at messerforum. Because those pictures you've shown don't really show of the Knechter in all its size and glory...



+1 :knife:


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## Karnstein (May 13, 2016)

Okay, I guess this shouldn't break any board rules since I'm not the maker of the knifes (nor have any business association with him) and it's a link, not directly borrowing other peoples pictures:

http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?131712-Der-Knechter

<= That's the knife Sharpchef is talking about... can't say anything about that damascus combination, but I had the pleasure to participate in a PA just recently with 6 gyutos from the same maker, all made from 1.2562/F2 carbon steel. Lovely stuff...

And to keep it related to the original theme of this topic: not sure if I as a mere hobby cook would consider the upgrade from 1.2562/F2 to a 1.2562/1.2767 damascus worth the extra costs. Most likely not, because edge retention isn't that much of a big deal for me.

And I surely wouldn't pay extra for some "fake damascus" cladding, regardless of who the maker is... for example I would never buy a damascus kato, even if I would win the lottery and could easily afford buying such a knife. Sure, there are always diminishing returns esp. in a home environment where twice the edge retention isn't worth twice the costs, as long as it isn't that bad to start with.


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## Iggy (May 13, 2016)

Karnstein said:


> ...but I had the pleasure to participate in a PA just recently with 6 gyutos from the same maker, all made from 1.2562/F2 carbon steel. Lovely stuff...



Correction... the PA knives (was also in taht PA) were in 1.2442, not 1.2562 steel! 
I have knives in both steels. Both great, but I guess I'd prefer 1.2562 a bit more due to the bonus in edge retention and durability.



Karnstein said:


> And I surely wouldn't pay extra for some "fake damascus" cladding, regardless of who the maker is... for example I would never buy a damascus kato, even if I would win the lottery and could easily afford buying such a knife. Sure, there are always diminishing returns esp. in a home environment where twice the edge retention isn't worth twice the costs, as long as it isn't that bad to start with.



I would, I'll be honest here, pay a bit more, when I get the *same level of performance* but a *more beatiful looking blade*. Nevertheless... I'm a home cook and knives are my passion. And of course looks do matter to me (as far as there is no negativ influence of the performance).

But same here, edge retention for me as a home cook (with to many knives...) is not priority No. 1, so I'd rather spend some more money in looks than in edge retention.


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