# Range of Stones



## TheCaptain (Dec 2, 2016)

@Fatboylim was kind enough to follow up on a thread I started a bit ago on the JNS board about their product. I'm going a bit into my stones here and hope he (and anyone else) will jump in with pointers.

I did get the JNS medium starter set as soon as it came back in stock, along with a few diamond plates and their synthetic blue aoto. Tried all the stones and think (based on my VAST experience of about , oh, 3 three weeks) that they are a really good bang for the buck. Nice, even, and consistent.

I also picked up lovely big brick sized white and orange binsui's as well as a large Khao men and Hlau name from Miles who was kind enough to make me a beautiful leather strop. The man is really heavy on customer service!

The Khao men stone surprised me because it's the first stone I used that tried to "suck in" the blade, if that makes any sense. I have not yet encountered that on any stone and it rattled me a bit because my fingers almost slipped on the blade. Has this happened to anyone else? Even with this said I still think this is my current #1 favorite stone.

I also have a few Jnats from Watanabe that I have yet to try. I may play with them this weekend. 

With that being said, I think I have to (I know, I know, want to) add a few coticules, aoto's, and harder stones for polishing.

I also really, REALLY need to stop reading Smashmasta's reviews. My wallet simply can't afford it. :wink:


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## cheflivengood (Dec 2, 2016)

Suisa Omura on JNS is a surprise for its low price, not to mention its huge and thats fun.


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## foody518 (Dec 2, 2016)

Yes, it can have a tendency towards that. Keep playing with how much or little water to have on the surface


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## daveb (Dec 2, 2016)

This is not a sport for the timid. Blood in the swarf is not common anymore but it still happens to me. Builds character. :knife:


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## cheflivengood (Dec 2, 2016)

daveb said:


> This is not a sport for the timid. Blood in the swarf is not common anymore but it still happens to me. Builds character. :knife:



its like the old man and the sea, the line ripping into his hands, painful, but you must feel whats happening (FEEDBACK)


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## Badgertooth (Dec 2, 2016)

My Khao men grabs a little at softer cladding. Not the Khao Men in this video but at 29s you hear a loud squeak and I damn near lose a finger 

https://youtu.be/AW023OhpTu0

I know you have it that you want harder stones for polishing but try softer, finer stones first for polishing. They are kinder to cladding and don't give you that faceted polish that harder stones do with the slightest variation in hand steadiness.


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## fatboylim (Dec 2, 2016)

I'm enjoying the Khao Men so much that I'm trying to find a nice natural stone to follow it! And I too am reading Smashmaster's reviews and it makes me want to buy them all! Woops dropped my wallet and it's entire contents for another decade...


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## TheCaptain (Dec 2, 2016)

daveb said:


> This is not a sport for the timid. Blood in the swarf is not common anymore but it still happens to me. Builds character. :knife:



Good to know. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong. Now that I know it's a "thing" it won't surprise me when it happens.

Meh a few nicks or burns never stopped me.


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## TheCaptain (Dec 2, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> My Khao men grabs a little at softer cladding. Not the Khao Men in this video but at 29s you hear a loud squeak and I damn near lose a finger
> 
> https://youtu.be/AW023OhpTu0
> 
> I know you have it that you want harder stones for polishing but try softer, finer stones first for polishing. They are kinder to cladding and don't give you that faceted polish that harder stones do with the slightest variation in hand steadiness.



Watched the video and damn that's almost exactly what happened to me.

And stone recommendations for polishing? What grit range should I look for?


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## TheCaptain (Dec 2, 2016)

fatboylim said:


> I'm enjoying the Khao Men so much that I'm trying to find a nice natural stone to follow it! And I too am reading Smashmaster's reviews and it makes me want to buy them all! Woops dropped my wallet and it's entire contents for another decade...



+ 1


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## TheCaptain (Dec 2, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> My Khao men grabs a little at softer cladding. Not the Khao Men in this video but at 29s you hear a loud squeak and I damn near lose a finger
> 
> https://youtu.be/AW023OhpTu0



BTW major props to you for being self confident enough (am I allowed to say having the stones? :happymug: ) to post this on youtube. I've watched lots of sharpening videos and yours is the first where everything didn't go perfectly. That's one of the reasons I thought maybe I was doing something wrong...


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## TheCaptain (Dec 2, 2016)

cheflivengood said:


> Suisa Omura on JNS is a surprise for its low price, not to mention its huge and thats fun.



Thanks for enabling me. It's now sitting in my wish list along with the Big Tsushima Nagura which is out of stock. I seem to have a knack for picking things that are not in...


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## Smashmasta (Dec 2, 2016)

TheCaptain said:


> Watched the video and damn that's almost exactly what happened to me.
> 
> And stone recommendations for polishing? What grit range should I look for?



One thing to keep in mind is koppas. They are smaller 'bits' of Jnats that cost faaaar less than their bigger brethren, and are a great way to try a stone out to make sure you like it/that's the direction you want to take. You can always sell it, or keep it for traveling or whatever. Of course you could say that you could just resell the larger stone, too, but the cost is greater, so your wallet will be hurting more until you sell it. You can buy a couple koppas for the price of a fine type 30 stone (~200x75x30mm), and gain more practice and insight faster.

The JNA aiiwatani is highly recommended, and the first stone I got in koppa size. I suggest you do the same. Fine enough to polish, but you can whip up a slurry on your diamond plate for a bit more feedback. A slightly more advanced stone as it can be hardish.

Jon at JKI has a number of Hideriyama and Oouchi that are on the softer/firmer side and fine enough to polish. I HIGHLY recommend you get one. He has different sizes so you can save some money. They are veeery approachable, with very good feedback and a wonderful edge. They're a very good value.


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## Smashmasta (Dec 2, 2016)

TheCaptain said:


> @Fatboylim was kind enough to follow up on a thread I started a bit ago on the JNS board about their product. I'm going a bit into my stones here and hope he (and anyone else) will jump in with pointers.
> 
> I did get the JNS medium starter set as soon as it came back in stock, along with a few diamond plates and their synthetic blue aoto. Tried all the stones and think (based on my VAST experience of about , oh, 3 three weeks) that they are a really good bang for the buck. Nice, even, and consistent.
> 
> ...



Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on a second - what is this 'Hlau Name' you speak of? Miles has a new stone and isn't spreading the good word?!

What can you tell us about it?


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## Krassi (Dec 2, 2016)

YEAH! what is this 'Hlau Name'  !
i love my orange and grey binsu!

Best regards, daniel


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## Badgertooth (Dec 2, 2016)

Hlau Nam is his new finisher. Very hard and very fine. There won't be too many of them as they're a PITA to cut


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## Badgertooth (Dec 2, 2016)

TheCaptain said:


> BTW major props to you for being self confident enough (am I allowed to say having the stones? :happymug: ) to post this on youtube. I've watched lots of sharpening videos and yours is the first where everything didn't go perfectly. That's one of the reasons I thought maybe I was doing something wrong...



Haha, I'll let you in on a little secret - I'm fairly average at sharpening, I just love doing it.

For user friendly polishing I recommend soft Aiiwatani, mizukihara, Hakka and soft shobudani


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## foody518 (Dec 3, 2016)

+1 on the Aiiwatani koppa (I also got a tomo nagura for mine) and Jon's Oouchi+Hideriyama recs


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## Krassi (Dec 3, 2016)

Hiho

Ahh i remember now too that miles mentioned a finisher.. ahh thats his name!
also +1 for Aiiwatanis.. the koppas are now totally to small for me, but they are awesome starter stones and cheap enough to not blow a hole in your bank account.
well the most important thing for me on a stone to feel comfortable is not the length but the wide (80mm+ is awesome).

i should get a aiiwatani karasu on monday but actually dondt know anything about it  (yeah iam weird, but you allready guessed it  )

Seeya , Daniel


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## jaknil (Dec 3, 2016)

Aiiwatani kiita from JNS lv2,5 or 3 or is going to be fantastic. 
Yes, I have one, it´s one of my best ones.


You have done well. 
Buying from JNS, miles and Watanabe is good.

But now for the real advice:
Now, just stop and get used to it. Get a real feel for it, before you go on and do the whole rollarcoaster tour.

I think Bagertooht and Smashmasta must be blessed with a bank account the rest of us can only dream of. 
They have lots of fanastic stones, and if economy is not an option, you may disregard my advice. 
But for most of us, I think it makes good sense to be real sure (tested time and again) what we can achieve with the stones we already have before planning the next lot. 


I have the medium set and the stones from Miles (orange, white and Khao Men) plus 11 naturals from Japan. 
The smoothest /softest (feel) one is the Khao men. It is special. I smile when I use it. 
But still some of the others are as smooth and harder and have better feedback. 
I also love the Khao Men, and I think when you like this one, you will be safe with the aiiwatani.

Which stones do you have from Watanabe?


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## fatboylim (Dec 3, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> Hlau Nam is his new finisher. Very hard and very fine. There won't be too many of them as they're a PITA to cut



Is the Hlau a good one compared to the Aiiwatani? It's sounding very tempting!


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## Smashmasta (Dec 3, 2016)

jaknil said:


> Aiiwatani kiita from JNS lv2,5 or 3 or is going to be fantastic.
> Yes, I have one, it´s one of my best ones.
> 
> 
> ...





fatboylim said:


> Is the Hlau a good one compared to the Aiiwatani? It's sounding very tempting!



Haha, no magic bank account 
I'm planning on starting a business in a year or so that's a cutlery and whetstone sharpening shop, so I'm committing myself (and my money and time) to this (costly) goal. So I'm spending to reflect that, rather than be a hobbyist with a crazy collection (and there are still muuuch crazier collections out there than mine, and I still have a long way to go. It never ends!). So yeah, no bottomless wallet (trust me), but pure commitment towards that direction, in more ways than one... $$$

@Captain - I agree with Jaknil that you should get your core progression and stop for a bit. Not only is Jnat buying very addictive, it's also costly, obviously. If you hold on for a bit, rather than inundate yourself with too many stones, you'll actually thank yourself (and your wallet will thank you), because you'll have taken the time to carefully start painting a picture from the few core stones you have and what direction you think you want to go instead of bouncing around from stone to stone. If you get too many too quickly, than you might get overwhelmed, which happened to me a couple times, and loose track of the nuances of each stone. Just a thought. No one will blame you if you take the leap though :biggrin:

Re: the Hlau - I forgot that that's what Miles was calling only a few stones he stumbled on at his property (actually just a pile of rocks in the corner of his property). He only had a few processed. They're suuuuper hard, really only for razors, mirror finishes, or itobas. Not very versatile, although I'd be interested to see how they react with a forced slurry on a fine diamond plate, or as the base for other naguras (but then it probably just acts like any other very hard awesado that uses other naguras). I held off, despite my addiction. It just sounds a bit limited to me, and he only has 2 small koppas left. Captain picked up one of the last better pieces. I suggest you put your hunting energy elsewhere unless you're looking for a razor or polishing stone.


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## TheCaptain (Dec 3, 2016)

Smashmasta said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on a second - what is this 'Hlau Name' you speak of? Miles has a new stone and isn't spreading the good word?!
> 
> What can you tell us about it?



At this point in time not much since I've only tried it out on a small paring knife. It's a very hard stone with one side polished almost a mirror surface. The other side is a bit rougher and gave me more feedback. I felt like I was getting some results with the rougher side but not with the smoother side - even using a khao men scythe stone I couldn't raise much of a slurry on the smooth side. 

I think I need something between my Khao men and this stone as I had to keep jumping back. Probably because I don't really know what I'm doing yet. Nice thing is I didn't scratch the hell out of my blade which I hear can be a thing with harder stones and newbies. Miles did say it was forgiving and he was right. 

I was in the right place at the right time when this came in and couldn't pass it up even though I'm not worthy. I'm very glad I got it but seriously wish a more experienced person could give it the review it deserves.

A few pictures (If I can figure out)


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## TheCaptain (Dec 3, 2016)

Smashmasta said:


> Re: the Hlau - I forgot that that's what Miles was calling only a few stones he stumbled on at his property (actually just a pile of rocks in the corner of his property). He only had a few processed. They're suuuuper hard, really only for razors, mirror finishes, or itobas. Not very versatile, although I'd be interested to see how they react with a forced slurry on a fine diamond plate, or as the base for other naguras (but then it probably just acts like any other very hard awesado that uses other naguras). I held off, despite my addiction. It just sounds a bit limited to me, and he only has 2 small koppas left. Captain picked up one of the last better pieces. I suggest you put your hunting energy elsewhere unless you're looking for a razor or polishing stone.



For what it's worth Miles cautioned against using a diamond plate on these stones. Said it's so hard it would rip the diamond grit off the plate and get it embedded in the stone. I have no baseline to judge but won't be using anything but naturals on this to raise a slurry.


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## Smashmasta (Dec 3, 2016)

jaknil said:


> Aiiwatani kiita from JNS lv2,5 or 3 or is going to be fantastic.
> Yes, I have one, it´s one of my best ones.
> 
> 
> ...





TheCaptain said:


> For what it's worth Miles cautioned against using a diamond plate on these stones. Said it's so hard it would rip the diamond grit off the plate and get it embedded in the stone. I have no baseline to judge but won't be using anything but naturals on this to raise a slurry.



Thanks for the pics. I'm upset because I have such trouble posting pics, and they turn sideways a lot, and here you go just popping up like it's NBD...

There are definitely some people who advocate for not using diamond plates like ever. I use them when I don't have tomos, and frequently when doing comparisons on results with slurry vs no slurry. Also when lapping, of course. I haven't had any problems with the infamous sole diamond fragment falling off and screwing everything up, but maybe it just takes time. As hard as I think that stone is, I doubt it's going to take diamonds out - just use light pressure if you need to. You could also use a 1200 grit so that there is less pressure on each diamond because there are so many more in contact with the stone, reducing the chances that one will take a heavy 'blow' from the stone and get ripped off. But if you just want to go natural nagura, that's totally cool and you should do it! Let us know how things progress.

IMO an aiiwatani would be more in between your khoa men and this than a hideriyama or oouchi, so maybe go that route first. It's harder and a bit finer, although there are fine hideriyamas out there. Or you could just get both and join me and many others in this madness!!!!!! :tease:


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## TheCaptain (Dec 3, 2016)

jaknil said:


> Which stones do you have from Watanabe?



Amakusa Aka Torato 3/10 soft - I've been working with my stones today as a matter of fact. I love the way this one smells (like damp earth after a field has been plowed). It raises a mud fairly fast. I'm working with a knife that is stupid dull and I can't get it to take an edge. Must be doing something wrong. I'd say this is a touch softer than the Thai orange binsui.

Uchigumori Hazuya 5/10 medium hard. Haven't worked with this one yet as I'm focused on softer stones today. It seems much harder than just medium to me, but Meh - what do I know?


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## Smashmasta (Dec 3, 2016)

jaknil said:


> Aiiwatani kiita from JNS lv2,5 or 3 or is going to be fantastic.
> Yes, I have one, it´s one of my best ones.
> 
> 
> ...





TheCaptain said:


> Amakusa Aka Torato 3/10 soft - I've been working with my stones today as a matter of fact. I love the way this one smells (like damp earth after a field has been plowed). It raises a mud fairly fast. I'm working with a knife that is stupid dull and I can't get it to take an edge. Must be doing something wrong. I'd say this is a touch softer than the Thai orange binsui.
> 
> Uchigumori Hazuya 5/10 medium hard. Haven't worked with this one yet as I'm focused on softer stones today. It seems much harder than just medium to me, but Meh - what do I know?



Hardness values are obviously all subjective, and relative to what you have - you'll be able to determine them with more experience and stones. My experience with Shinichi's stones, however, is that he tends to grade towards the soft side. That is, if he says a stone is a 5 it's probably going to be a bit more like a 6, maybe even 7. I've bought at 6-7 stones from him at least, and almost all have been slightly harder IMO than he suggests. Not really a bad thing, just something to keep in mind if you're on the market for a certain hardness and shopping his pages.


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## Badgertooth (Dec 3, 2016)

TheCaptain said:


> Amakusa Aka Torato 3/10 soft - I've been working with my stones today as a matter of fact. I love the way this one smells (like damp earth after a field has been plowed). It raises a mud fairly fast. I'm working with a knife that is stupid dull and I can't get it to take an edge. Must be doing something wrong. I'd say this is a touch softer than the Thai orange binsui.
> 
> Uchigumori Hazuya 5/10 medium hard. Haven't worked with this one yet as I'm focused on softer stones today. It seems much harder than just medium to me, but Meh - what do I know?



I'd agree with Smash that Shinichi does rate them a bit softer than they run. 

For the stupid dull knife, hit it on a sub 800 grit synth then bounce up to the amakusa. Naturals are the most awesome thing in the world but no real substitute for low grit synths and re-establishing edges that are gone. But working on a fresh apex, they are the bomb


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## bennyprofane (Dec 4, 2016)

Badger, in my experience using an Omura to establish an edge works quite well, no need for synths. 

Perhaps they also leave shallower scratches than a synth which would be another advantage.


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## Smashmasta (Dec 4, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Badger, in my experience using an Omura to establish an edge works quite well, no need for synths.
> 
> Perhaps they also leave shallower scratches than a synth which would be another advantage.



While I agree with Badger that synths are more efficient, I bought an Omura, Natsuya, Amukusa binsui, and Amukasa aka totato, which are some the lowest grit stones Shinichi has, all at a very decent price (you can get all 4 of these for the price of one finer grit stone...) to compare to synths; I've actually been meaning to do a review of these which I might get to soon. The bnisui was a bit finer grit than I expected, so I don't count it in the comparison, but I was surprised at the speed of the omura and natsuya, especially the natsuya. Even then, however, they still don't compare to synths. It sounds you like one heck of a omura, Benny.


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## bennyprofane (Dec 4, 2016)

The Omura is definitely slower than a synth but it doesnt take that long to raise a burr and I think another advantage is the burr is much smaller so less metal is wasted, and, as Ive mentioned, the scratch pattern is shallower. At least, thats what Shinichi told me. How is that Amakusa Torato?


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