# WARNING: Get a barf bag. Another POS kitchen knife article.



## tk59 (Dec 11, 2011)

This is so sad on so many counts... http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/home_blog/2011/12/shopping-for-knives.html


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## unkajonet (Dec 11, 2011)

Your warning was not strong enough. I needed a bigger barf bag.


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## Andrew H (Dec 11, 2011)

"In mid- to top-range knives, one choice a cook makes is between Asian-style knives, which generally have thinner blades and are lighter, and heartier European-style knives, which make cutting chicken easier."
Yup, I always reach for my wusthof when I'm cutting chicken.


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## Cookin808 (Dec 11, 2011)

I think we have a new Champion in the category of "Ugliest Knife"...


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## jmforge (Dec 11, 2011)

DAAAAAANNNNGGGG!!!!! How do I get written up in the LA Times? :lol2:


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## Johnny.B.Good (Dec 11, 2011)

Might have been a different article had the author visited with Jon at JKI instead of the creator of the "Rhino Chop."


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## NO ChoP! (Dec 11, 2011)

What? You don't like the thumb ramp that provides a surer hold? And who needs a convex grind when you can drill a dozen holes directly through the blade? Come on guys, get on board.....


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## eto (Dec 11, 2011)

tk59 said:


> This is so sad on so many counts... http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/home_blog/2011/12/shopping-for-knives.html



Strange I never knew that Global's had ("The handle, which is covered with small divots, is filled with sand to give it balance and a substantial feel,&#8221; Pitblado says.) Is that true?


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## jmforge (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh, shizzle. I posted some knives for sale on another forum and the only response that I got was THAT guy telling me how good they looked. No wonder they haven't sold yet!!!! I thought it was the economy and that I was asking for a lot of money.:lol2:


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## Sarge (Dec 11, 2011)

Yeah Global's handles are filled with sand to really provide that "perfect" balance. Its not like loose rattling around in there but yeah the handle is hollow and the filled with sand at the end to balance the knife.


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## RRLOVER (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't want to bag on the guy but the rhino chop on his website is Very poorly ground.I can't go into the whole hole thing.


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## Amon-Rukh (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm just glad to read that only non-meat-eaters know "how you respond to the tool." I'm also intrigued by the idea of learning to taste with my eyes and wish to subscribe to whatever eating-with-your-corneas newsletters might be out there.


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## Dave Martell (Dec 11, 2011)

I feel dirty for haven read that.


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## Michael Rader (Dec 11, 2011)

He should have joined KKF first and been seriously schooled!!!

-M


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## steeley (Dec 12, 2011)

with or without holes $275.




[/IMG]


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## karloevaristo (Dec 12, 2011)

what the hell was that? :flush:


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## sachem allison (Dec 12, 2011)

The Global is a great knife for vegetarians, Lyon says.

who knew?


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## kalaeb (Dec 12, 2011)

Good Grief!


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## Twistington (Dec 12, 2011)

sachem allison said:


> The Global is a great knife for vegetarians, Lyon says.
> 
> who knew?



Yeah the Global G-12 6.5" Meat Cleaver is fantastic for vegetarians!


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## TamanegiKin (Dec 12, 2011)

So sad...What a lack of thorough research the Blogger invested in the article. This person should go back to writing yelp reviews for local restaurants...Gross just gross


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## Justin0505 (Dec 12, 2011)

Whenever I see knives with holes in them, I always think of the this episode of the Simpsons:
[video=youtube;XVV_COOey0E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVV_COOey0E&feature=colike[/video]
The best part is afterwards when Homer adds "speed holes" to his own car using a pick ax (couldn't find that clip though).


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## Cookin808 (Dec 12, 2011)

Any chance of getting a Rhino Chop pass around?


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## Cadillac J (Dec 12, 2011)

Cookin808 said:


> Any chance of getting a Rhino Chop pass around?



Dude's on FF, so actually I'm sure he would...but not sure if he would be ready for the rude awakening from the feedback.


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## Andrew H (Dec 12, 2011)

Cookin808 said:


> Any chance of getting a Rhino Chop pass around?



After this thread? :lol2:


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## Peace of Poop (Dec 12, 2011)

If you don't have a barf bag, you can try so kind of fold the LA Times into a bowl (my Aunt used to do that with road maps before GPS devices were common). :idea2: Happy holidays.


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## jackslimpson (Dec 12, 2011)

sachem allison said:


> The Global is a great knife for vegetarians, Lyon says.
> 
> who knew?



This was the line that got me. *** is she talking about?! Journalists are so gullible -- I think this Lyon person was screwing with the writer (Mary McVean?). He could have said something like, "I only use carbon steel on spring vegetables -- they're less acidic; while the stainless steel is used for fall melons from our fair trade purveyor. Organic. Free range. Soy, even."


Cheers,

Jack


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## mr drinky (Dec 12, 2011)

steeley said:


> with or without holes $275.
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]



Wow, I never thought of putting spyderco holes along the entire edge before. Forget about food release, after enough sharpenings it actually releases the edge itself and becomes a serrated knife.

k.


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## DWSmith (Dec 12, 2011)

It makes a good companion to the one with the flames on the handles the joker on Food TV hawks. Some people will buy anything!


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## jmforge (Dec 12, 2011)

Do you mean Guy Ferry? Oops!!! He prefers his new pseudo-Siclian name FIERI nowadays. :lol2:


The BoardSMITH said:


> It makes a good companion to the one with the flames on the handles the joker on Food TV hawks. Some people will buy anything!


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## mr drinky (Dec 12, 2011)

Ok, now I finally read the article, but I am going to be the lone dissenting voice on this one I think. I don't think the article was that bad -- and by that I mean barf bad. Sure we could have made it a lot better and there were a few really bad lines, but we geeks also would have made it too technical so that 90% of readers would have given up and not read it. I actually think the title and lead picture are the worst part and the expert knifemaker was not a good representative. 

With that said, the point about food being cut and not torn is valid. No one here would argue that men aren't the biggest knife nuts. The author said not to cut on glass or granite. Simple advice, true, but still a common mistake by the average person. Yes, I get sick of the Shun and Global branded approach, but I just had a home dinner prepared by a very good chef who used a global, and I have also seen chefs like Grant Achatz use a global. A lot of people and even some pros use them. The author acknowledged carbon knives and dared uttered the word 'patina'. Not a bad attempt at expanding the discussion IMO given space and the fact it is still a blog. The author also advised against knife blocks. 

Anyhow, that is my 2 cents. I studied economics and I often find crap in articles about the economy and flat out mistakes. My wife is a doctor and she often reads articles about medicine with errors. Every specialist can poke holes in print (and especially e-print) articles. They have limitations in space, editors, and need to think about the end reader. 

Just being the devil's (dull) advocate here, and I admit that the article didn't make me barf. Only a little bit of barf came up the throat and gave me that bad taste in the mouth 

k.


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## jmforge (Dec 12, 2011)

The good thing that you can say about the article and the aforementioned mass market brands is that things like this can possibly steer people away from the Furi knives of the world or worse. There are a lot of knives that fall into the "or worse" category polluting the kitchens of America!! I like to think of products like Global knives as potential "gateway drugs"


mr drinky said:


> Ok, now I finally read the article, but I am going to be the lone dissenting voice on this one I think. I don't think the article was that bad -- and by that I mean barf bad. Sure we could have made it a lot better and there were a few really bad lines, but we geeks also would have made it too technical so that 90% of readers would have given up and not read it. I actually think the title and lead picture are the worst part and the expert knifemaker was not a good representative.
> 
> With that said, the point about food being cut and not torn is valid. No one here would argue that men aren't the biggest knife nuts. The author said not to cut on glass or granite. Simple advice, true, but still a common mistake by the average person. Yes, I get sick of the Shun and Global branded approach, but I just had a home dinner prepared by a very good chef who used a global, and I have also seen chefs like Grant Achatz use a global. A lot of people and even some pros use them. The author acknowledged carbon knives and dared uttered the word 'patina'. Not a bad attempt at expanding the discussion IMO given space and the fact it is still a blog. The author also advised against knife blocks.
> 
> ...


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## Justin0505 (Dec 12, 2011)

Yeah, I also finally read the article and am just mildly naucious. I reads like someone with no knife knowledge at all interviewed a few people, took tons of notes and then tried to condense the notes onto an article without ever really gaining a firm personal grasp or the topic or understanding g all of the interview's content.

I'm actually quite surprised that she included as little goofy or wrong info as she did and and even managed to hit a few important points:

-while different types / styles of knives rise and fall in popularity, the most important thing is to match the knife to the user and to the task.

-Don't buy sets of knives; pick each individually

-good knives are an heirlom investment

-cutting board material and knife care and storage are important

-consider shopping for knives at a store where the salesman might have at least a little more knowledge than wallmart or a department store

-Carbon is for more that just your grandparents; the most expensive knife at SLT is carbon, so there must be something to it.

-While she didn't do so well at listing all of the non-major brands or custom makers, she did mention that lots if options exist.

The article didn't cover all the bases or connect all the dots, but I think that it gave the totally ignorant but interested consumer / unrealized knife knut, some food for thought and a place to start. Hopeful it will inspire some Googling that will eventually lead them here where they will be received with more excitement and acceptance than the article was.


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## memorael (Dec 12, 2011)

shiza... that article gave me a headache. It also made me realize I need a wustof to cut chicken... damn.


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## Noodle Soup (Dec 12, 2011)

mr drinky said:


> Ok, now I finally read the article, but I am going to be the lone dissenting voice on this one I think. I don't think the article was that bad -- and by that I mean barf bad. Sure we could have made it a lot better and there were a few really bad lines, but we geeks also would have made it too technical so that 90% of readers would have given up and not read it. I actually think the title and lead picture are the worst part and the expert knifemaker was not a good representative.
> 
> With that said, the point about food being cut and not torn is valid. No one here would argue that men aren't the biggest knife nuts. The author said not to cut on glass or granite. Simple advice, true, but still a common mistake by the average person. Yes, I get sick of the Shun and Global branded approach, but I just had a home dinner prepared by a very good chef who used a global, and I have also seen chefs like Grant Achatz use a global. A lot of people and even some pros use them. The author acknowledged carbon knives and dared uttered the word 'patina'. Not a bad attempt at expanding the discussion IMO given space and the fact it is still a blog. The author also advised against knife blocks.
> 
> ...



Drinky, you don't have to be alone. I didn't think it was that bad either. And I have used the Rhino Chop. No better or worse than a lot of santuku style knives in that size range. Mine didn't have all the holes in the blade though. I'm not sure what that is about.


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## jaybett (Dec 12, 2011)

It's always interesting to see the forum's reaction to these articles about knives, intended for the general public. Typically posts are made, about the lack of knowledge by the author or contributor. With all of knowledge of the forum, what would we present differently in the article? The Rhino Chop is too easy of a target, so its off the table. 

Jay


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## tk59 (Dec 12, 2011)

@ those that may think this sort of journalism is okay: This is about journalistic standards and yes, it's just a blog. In my field, anyone putting forth this sort of mix of crap and truth in public would be labeled a fool, never to be taken seriously. If you cook something and half the ingredients are high quality and the other half came out of the garbage, you are going to get garbage. Some people still may not mind eating it.

Btw, the Rhino guy was banned from here a month or two ago for self-promotion in his avatar and sig line, iirc.


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## Hermes7792 (Dec 12, 2011)

those holes... and handles... -shutters-


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## jackslimpson (Dec 12, 2011)

Hermes7792 said:


> those holes... and handles... -shutters-



In the spirit of fairness: do the holes work? 

...


What about for vegans? 

...

Cheers,

Jack


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## SpikeC (Dec 12, 2011)

He prolly figgers that if grantons are good holes are fabulous. I cannot see how the holes could provide any help with anything, except for maybe making the blade hard to clean. Then you could punish bad behavior by making them clean the knife.
Makle the vegans clean the knife.


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## JBroida (Dec 12, 2011)

tk59 said:


> @ those that may think this sort of journalism is okay: This is about journalistic standards and yes, it's just a blog. In my field, anyone putting forth this sort of mix of crap and truth in public would be labeled a fool, never to be taken seriously. If you cook something and half the ingredients are high quality and the other half came out of the garbage, you are going to get garbage. Some people still may not mind eating it.
> 
> Btw, the Rhino guy was banned from here a month or two ago for self-promotion in his avatar and sig line, iirc.



actually, the article printed in the LA times... the blog is just the online version, but it went out in print first


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## mr drinky (Dec 12, 2011)

Let's face it, there will likely never be an article that will satisfy us totally -- though we can hope. 

Even if they got the knife buying recommendations more or less correct that would appeal to the general public, then there are countless traps to fall in after that: honing, sharpening options, steel, getting Japanese knife styles correct, forged vs. stamped, cutting boards, steel, and God forbid they touch sharpening stones. And in the end, if they did do their research they would likely point to CKTG and Korin as the one-stop vendors -- even though I would love to see the JK trio mentioned (JKS, JKI, and JCK). 

Just saying, but I understand your point about the author not doing her job.

k.


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## JBroida (Dec 12, 2011)

i sent an e-mail to the author inviting her to the shop to talk more about the subject... she responded that she would come in next time she's in the area


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## Johnny.B.Good (Dec 12, 2011)

JBroida said:


> i sent an e-mail to the author inviting her to the shop to talk more about the subject... she responded that she would come in next time she's in the area



Good idea. Perhaps she will redeem herself with a follow up article.


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## tk59 (Dec 12, 2011)

mr drinky said:


> ...there will likely never be an article that will satisfy us totally...


I don't expect an article from a non-knut to be 100% on target (I'm not even sure we could all agree on what that might be.) but the ratio of good stuff and bad stuff on this one is putrid.


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## Andrew H (Dec 12, 2011)

tk59 said:


> I don't expect an article from a non-knut to be 100% on target (I'm not even sure we could all agree on what that might be.) but the ratio of good stuff and bad stuff on this one is putrid.



Hopefully she does visit with Jon. It would be nice press and informative. Remeber to get a KKF mention in somehow, Jon :laugh:


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## steeley (Dec 13, 2011)

More than one drank the kool aid.




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## memorael (Dec 13, 2011)

damn... I thought the rhino knife was bad.


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## Bryan G. (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm just confused. Are these knives for actual USE, or just for DISPLAY? If they are for use I would be curious to hear what the maker's logic is in putting wholes in the blade and the purpose for them. Is it for food release purposes? If so how well does it work? I have seen this in Cheese knives before, but never like this. 

Regards


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## ecchef (Dec 13, 2011)

Bacteria condominiums?


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## Lucretia (Dec 13, 2011)

Bryan G. said:


> If they are for use I would be curious to hear what the maker's logic is in putting wholes in the blade and the purpose for them. Is it for food release purposes?



I know! I know! On BAK (Big arse knives) like these, they've gotta be lightening holes! :idea2:


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## jmforge (Dec 13, 2011)

Of course. The blades are too thin for a blood groove.


Lucretia said:


> I know! I know! On BAK (Big arse knives) like these, they've gotta be lightening holes! :idea2:


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## Noodle Soup (Dec 21, 2011)

Wow, a reprint of that article showed up in our small town daily paper today!


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## Don Nguyen (Dec 21, 2011)

"Why do you have holes in some of these knife blades?

On some of my larger chef's knives: master knives like the Saussure and the Vega, you'll see an arrangement of holes through the blades. These have several purposes. The first is to create a means of breaking the surface tension (some call it vacuum) that happens when cutting wet vegetables, fruits, and some meats. You've no doubt experienced this problem and had to take the time to drag the flat part of the blade over the edge of the cutting board, or bowl or even use your fingers to clear the blade. This is never a good idea, because dragging the blade over the corner of anything can mar, scuff, or scratch the finished surface of the blade or the object, and the cutting edge can slice into the bowl, board, or pan. Obviously, the fingers should keep clear of the razor-keen chef's knife's cutting edge, unless you want some personal flesh in the recipe!

Other makers (mostly factories) grind a series of gouges in the blade surface to do the same thing (clear the blade). They do it with coarse grinders, and the gouges are rough and ugly. The modern factory Santoku is usually made this way.

By drilling and milling (rather than grinding) several advantages are noticed. First, the additional milling has removed unnecessary material and significantly lightened a thicker blade without sacrificing the great strength of this type of blade. Secondly, the release of clinging foodstuffs is easier, as a hole completely through the blade allows air to break the tension. Thirdly, the decorative and custom aspects of the knife are exhibited.

The reason you seldom see holes through the blades of factory knives and other handmade knives is that the steps of drilling and/or milling these holes is an additional production step requiring layout, tool work, machinery, time, and stress relieving process in the heat treat to make sure that the integrity of the blade is sound. Most factories take the why bother approach, and eliminate this step altogether. They still recognize the clinging problem and choose to assign the task of gouging some repeating grooves in the blade surface as a cheaper and simpler approach. By the way, these gouges do not work very well, because they are not deep enough or abruptly machined at the surface (simply lightly ground) and do not release foods as well. Since the factory gouges are washed over along with the blade by surface conditioning abrasive wheels (like Scotch-Brite), they have soft and non-abrupt edges and do not always release soft foodstuffs well.

The one concern I hear is that with holes through the blades, the chef will have trouble cleaning them. One wonders what the chef might encounter that would be difficult to remove from the blade, as most of these knives only require a simple rinsing to clean. Sticky dried fruits would come to mind. Raisins, dates, figs, dried apricots, peaches, and tamarind might cause a problem here if they are forced into these holes. But what are you doing cutting fruits with a master chef's knife like this anyway, and how are those materials forced into the holes? The knife used for cutting fruits should be a fruit knife, like my very popular La Cocina knife design seen all over this page. Thankfully, I do not mill holes in the La Cocina blade, so this is not a problem. When the master chef's knife has milled holes in the blade, all that is required is a rinsing after use. The mindful chef would be doing that anyway in the typical care regime for his blade.

All chefs are different, and I get plenty of requests for milled blades as well as blades that are not milled, drilled gouged, or textured. This is a custom affair, and I make the knife the way the client wants it." -Jay Fisher




His quality is absolutely unbelievable. Everything looks ridiculously precise. His designs.... however...


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## jmforge (Dec 21, 2011)

Ummmm, yeah. Mr. Fisher's designs are polarizing to say the least.


Don Nguyen said:


> "Why do you have holes in some of these knife blades?
> 
> On some of my larger chef's knives: master knives like the Saussure and the Vega, you'll see an arrangement of holes through the blades. These have several purposes. The first is to create a means of breaking the surface tension (some call it vacuum) that happens when cutting wet vegetables, fruits, and some meats. You've no doubt experienced this problem and had to take the time to drag the flat part of the blade over the edge of the cutting board, or bowl or even use your fingers to clear the blade. This is never a good idea, because dragging the blade over the corner of anything can mar, scuff, or scratch the finished surface of the blade or the object, and the cutting edge can slice into the bowl, board, or pan. Obviously, the fingers should keep clear of the razor-keen chef's knife's cutting edge, unless you want some personal flesh in the recipe!
> 
> ...


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## Timthebeaver (Dec 21, 2011)

Ignoring everthing else, the heel on that bottom knife looks deadly.


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## Don Nguyen (Dec 21, 2011)

Yeesh, yes, looks pretty dang intimidating.

I just noticed, the handle material on the bottom knife also looks like solidified barf.........

I'm not trying to be insulting here btw; although I disagree with his knife designs, I absolutely marvel at the craftsmanship (the bolster fit is just incredible). I'd be scared to touch one of the knifes; they're just too clean and shiny for me to be comfortable with.


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## echerub (Dec 21, 2011)

It's evident that he takes a lot of time and care when making these knives but the designs? Oh my. Well, if he gets good business then that's good for him.


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## JohnnyChance (Dec 21, 2011)

Don Nguyen said:


>



This one weighs 595g.


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## add (Dec 21, 2011)

Timthebeaver said:


> *Ignoring everthing else,* the heel on that bottom knife looks deadly.



How is _that_ possible?

:lol2:


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## jmforge (Dec 21, 2011)

He makes a lot of handles using various types of stone, so they aren't going to be featherweight lasers by any stretch of the imagination.


JohnnyChance said:


> This one weighs 595g.


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## TB_London (Dec 21, 2011)

Those holes are knuckle graters especially with their special sharp corners, clever way to make a knife need replacing in a fraction of the time though


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## jmforge (Dec 21, 2011)

He has one boning knife for sale on his website. It is made from 440C with a stone handle and he wants $1995 for it AND you do get a cool exotic skin sheath, but no holes in the blade. Those are extra..:bliss: Like I said, Mr. Fisher's designs can be a bit polarizing, but he does have some skillz and apparenlty enough folks are willing to buy his work to keep him in bidness. With that said, I am waiting to hear what some of you might have to say about his comments on what makes a "great" chefs knife.


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## JohnnyChance (Dec 22, 2011)

******* said:


> He makes a lot of handles using various types of stone, so they aren't going to be featherweight lasers by any stretch of the imagination.



I know, but that is very, very heavy. Most gyutos I use and prefer are around 200g, 1/3 of the weight of that thing.



******* said:


> He has one boning knife for sale on his website. It is made from 440C with a stone handle and he wants $1995 for it AND you do get a cool exotic skin sheath, but no holes in the blade. Those are extra..:bliss: Like I said, Mr. Fisher's designs can be a bit polarizing, but he does have some skillz and apparenlty enough folks are willing to buy his work to keep him in bidness. With that said, I am waiting to hear what some of you might have to say about his comments on what makes a "great" chefs knife.



Geez, he's more expensive than Kramer! I read some of his comments on what makes a great chefs knife, he certainly has plenty of information and opinions on his website, so I haven't read all of it. Some of the stuff is correct or sorta correct, some is off base; but he is confident about it, so if I didn't know what I know and read his site, I would probably take his word for it. I am sure many people do.

And yes, he does have a lot of talent. And if I am ever a CEO of a massive company and want a $5000 letter opener/piece of art to be in a stand on display on my massive mahogany desk, I would probably give him a call.


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## mr drinky (Dec 22, 2011)

If I ever create a human centipede, I am going to use his knife.

k. 

P.S. I know that is sick, sorry.


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## JohnnyChance (Dec 22, 2011)

mr drinky said:


> If I ever create a human centipede, I am going to use his knife.
> 
> k.
> 
> P.S. I know that is sick, sorry.



Bwahahahaha!

Is that on your bucket list or something?


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## jmforge (Dec 22, 2011)

Just so you guys know, his work gets similar reactions on the non-kitchen knife forums.


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