# DIY Audio or OCD to the next level



## MarcelNL

we might as well create a repository for all audio DIY craziness I try sneak into other threads, I only hope mine gets diluted by others ;-)


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## damiano

We don’t have a hifi thread?? I’ve been hunting nos dacs lately, and just bought a golden oldie: a 47 Labs shigaraki usb dac. Now I’m waiting for the new Bluesound node to arrive so I can hook it up!

What are you diy-ing?


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## MarcelNL

So for starters let me try explain what I am trying to do tinkering with audio at home....

reproduce audio in a most natural way, and my life's journey (and that in audio) brought me to believe that less is more and dogma's have no place in life. My motto is try everything, challenge everything, see for yourself (rather hear for yourself)

Currently playing with ONE (so yes mono), due to space restrictions, front loaded horn using three full range speakers and a supertweeter. See the Avatar, and think BIG (2.20meter by 2.20 meter), it's an adaptation of the famous Klangfilm Bionor design (more Cinema). Beauty is the system comes in at around 105dB/W/m so flea powered amps do well, and distortion levels are low.

Main system consisting of a Cinema tube amp dating back to the fifties and a tweaked computer running Daphile, attached to more power supplies than you'd care to know about, feeding digital into an R2R DAC modded to accept I2S feed from my computer.

Components in use in my system are best described as 'exotic and esoteric', let's not go there for now ;-)


Currently in the process of redoing the tweeter filter, sine cap so a hand made resistor and a hand made inductor, winding off the coil listening to the result each turn, then tweaking the position of the tweeter relative to the full range speakers by approx 5/100 mm...

Truly time consuming as each step needs to be evaluated, and there are plenty variables to be auditioned separately when building a whole system.


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## Lars

Great thread!

I came up in pro audio, so it is deeply embedded in me to look down on audiophiles. I do have a soft spot for anything DIY!

Here is a pic of my DAC.


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## MarcelNL

is it a soekris?


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> is it a soekris?


No!

..(I had to google Soekris)..

It's much more plain than that..!


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## Lars

In case it wasn't obvious, it's DIY built by yours truly..


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## WildBoar

I'm on the edge of this abyss looking in right now. Need to set up a streaming-only system for my wife and am looking at trying out a RP4 build. I haven't messed with these yet. Also on the fence about buying a Class D amp or getting a DIY kit.


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## Lars

WildBoar said:


> I'm on the edge of this abyss looking in right now. Need to set up a streaming-only system for my wife and am looking at trying out a RP4 build. I haven't messed with these yet. Also on the fence about buying a Class D amp or getting a DIY kit.


Hypex modules are the non plus ultra of Class D. @MarcelNL told me so and I agree! Very easy to put together and unparalleled in performance.


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## MarcelNL

THere are some class D amps that puch WAY above their weight, in the end it's all a matter of horses for courses...


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## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> Hypex modules are the non plus ultra of Class D. @MarcelNL told me so and I agree! Very easy to put together and unparalleled in performance.



LOL

they are good, though....in a recent head to head comparison with a mesh triode amp the tweaked to the max class D amp had to throw in the towel ( I suspect there has not been a Class D amp with a more elaborate power supply ever)

For day to day easy listening class D amps do a pretty good job, when combined with high efficiency speaker systems their sound fingerprint becomes too much IMO.


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> their sound fingerprint becomes too much IMO.


They have no sound, only your room and speakers have faults like that


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## MarcelNL

sure...still, can we agree not to enter into debates like this? as in 'all amps, wires, or 0 and 1's are equal'? It's about as silly as saying that f.e. an Ikea kitchen knife cuts as well as a TF Denka and pointless.


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> sure...still, can we agree not to enter into debates like this? as in 'all amps, wires, or 0 and 1's are equal'? It's about as silly as saying that f.e. an Ikea kitchen knife cuts as well as a TF Denka and pointless.


No, Hypex are superior. A mesh triode amp could never compare imo.

I am only (half) kidding. I would really love to know more about your speakers, As much as I like to poke fun at audiophiles, I really admire your build.


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## MarcelNL

I appreciate different opinions, it's just that the 
'debates' with Electronics engineers and other 'black/whitists' folks grow old because they never come to any conclusion other than digging in deeper ;-)

My speakers are back loaded horns in an open baffle, using 3 , thirteen inch full range units and a JBL tweeter. if you google Klangfilm Bionor you'll find plenty references (be it by audiophiles ;-) )


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## LostHighway

MarcelNL said:


> I appreciate different opinions, it's just that the
> 'debates' with Electronics engineers and other 'black/whitists' folks grow old because they never come to any conclusion other than digging in deeper ;-)



IME while this is true more often than not I've run into a number of more open eared engineers that try the rule: the late Don Moses (primary founder of Wadia) and John Stronczer of Bel Canto, to name two, were/are both serious listeners and very willing to look for other variables or measurement techniques when what they heard was at odds with what they measured.


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## gregfisk

My speakers are also open baffle. I had the frames built close to the designers specifications but changed the aesthetics to my liking. I then installed the 14” coaxial midrange tweeter and duel 12” servo subs myself. I built the crossovers myself and wired those up as well.

I know we’ve had this discussion before Lars, I only wish you lived near Seattle. I have listened to several class D amps in my system, including Hypex. And I have owned 3 or 4 myself. I’ve had many audiophiles in my room and had large listening parties. We’ve listened to many class D, tube and solid state amps. Mostly higher end stuff but some modest amps. Bang for buck class D is very good but it just doesn’t draw you in like a good class a or ab amp. Clarity in spades? Absolutely. Lots of drive and control of the speakers? You bet. But something is always missing. Class D just doesn’t have the goose bump factor you can get from other types of amps.

I’m having my Hafler amp upgraded by a company called Musical Concepts. They literally turn a very good classic circuit design into a world class amp. The Hafler already sounds better than my class class D 1200as2 based amp so I’m very excited to get it back.


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## Lars

I am just trolling you guys. I'm sure your stuff sounds great ❤


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## MarcelNL

LostHighway said:


> IME while this is true more often than not I've run into a number of more open eared engineers that try the rule: the late Don Moses (primary founder of Wadia) and John Stronczer of Bel Canto, to name two, were/are both serious listeners and very willing to look for other variables or measurement techniques when what they heard was at odds with what they measured.


just to be clear, I was referring to the group mostly NOT involved in a serious way in audio. The folks you mention are highly regarded names in the industry, people who create seriously good sounding gear!


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## WildBoar

After being in the hobby for 35+ years I am heading in the direction of transparent/ accurate in the sources and amplification, and adding processing for correcting room/ loudspeaker issues (to a certain extent), and tailor colorations for particular recordings as needed. I'm experimenting first with the system I am assembling for my wife, and then I will figure out what I want to change on my system.


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## MarcelNL

WildBoar said:


> After being in the hobby for 35+ years I am heading in the direction of transparent/ accurate in the sources and amplification, and adding processing for correcting room/ loudspeaker issues (to a certain extent), and tailor colorations for particular recordings as needed. I'm experimenting first with the system I am assembling for my wife, and then I will figure out what I want to change on my system.



A friend of me is going that route of using highly complex filtering/correction done real time now that is possible...I've yet to hear the results as we usually meet at a mutual friends place.

Transparent and accurate is my goal too, IME using high efficiency open baffle/horn speakers is a key step. I find that with my current system the room somehow has far less influence, my theory is that the power otherwise wasted plays a key role somehow. Sitting in my listening spot the volume can appear to be quite high yet nothing starts shaking and moving and in the room next door you hardly hear anything.


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## gregfisk

While I have a lot of room treatment, all 2” to 6” thick absorption panels, open baffle speakers are much more forgiving of the room. I’ve been trying to get as close to an intimate live show as possible for some time now. While that is an impossible goal I have gotten the system to draw an emotional response from the listener.


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## Keith Sinclair

Do you have a sweet spot for your avatar?


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## MarcelNL

Keith Sinclair said:


> Do you have a sweet spot for your avatar?


it's fairly large even when I'm only using one at the moment, so my response is 'system playing music' would be my sweet spot ;-)
I am so looking forward to be able to play stereo, perhaps the tweeter stays mono, the future will tell.

Next stage is tweaking tweeter resistors, choosing between gold, platinum and palladium...all have a distinctly different sound character.


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## MarcelNL

gregfisk said:


> While I have a lot of room treatment, all 2” to 6” thick absorption panels, open baffle speakers are much more forgiving of the room. I’ve been trying to get as close to an intimate live show as possible for some time now. While that is an impossible goal* I have gotten the system to draw an emotional response from the listener.*



That is my objective also, recreating 'live' is simply impossible in a living room or even listening room, just looking at the dynamics and moving surface required for stuff like a Mahler symphony...just think about the 8th, 'Symphonie der tausend', well... even a small jazz combo or a solo violin is beyond most systems dynamically.


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> My speakers are back loaded horns in an open baffle, using 3 , thirteen inch full range units and a JBL tweeter. if you google Klangfilm Bionor you'll find plenty references (be it by audiophiles ;-) )


I'm going to risk looking like an idiot, but… Where is the tweeter?


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## Keith Sinclair

Like this pun

Just paid my rent and electricity .... now I'm 
Bach to being Baroque. No money left to go
grocery Chopin and Haydn from bill collectors.
Not sure I can Handel anymore of this....

Took Chamber music, rock & roll, female vocal when picked out my psb towers years ago. Have good wire, pretty good amp. Nothing like your level. Guy who taught me about how to get good sound built very large speakers. 
Tube amps. Would listen to music in the dark only tubes glowing. 

Remember watching movie Blade Runner hooked up to incredible sound.


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## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> I'm going to risk looking like an idiot, but… Where is the tweeter?


missing at that stage of the build, but currently it's in, and heavily tweaking it (playing one speaker)

A good old JBL 2402 alnico @ 8K as the previous one could not keep up with the SPL.

I'm in the process of adjusting the filter (done I think, but for tweaking what filter components are made of) and tweeter position....all taking loooots of time.


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## MarcelNL

and currently listening to a cross section of my preferences, ranging from ancient Egyptian music dating back 3000 years to current Electronic music to find determine where the phase adjustment optimum is


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> missing at that stage of the build, but currently it's in, and heavily tweaking it (playing one speaker)
> 
> A good old JBL 2402 alnico @ 8K as the previous one could not keep up with the SPL.
> 
> I'm in the process of adjusting the filter (done I think, but for tweaking what filter components are made of) and tweeter position....all taking loooots of time.


Geez, there is no need to laugh at me. I was just asking an honest question..

Lets see a pic of their current state..!


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## MarcelNL

not laughing AT you, I was just 'laughing' because the tweeter indeed was missing in that picture.


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## Lars

My psychologist sometimes talks about 'the endless analysis' as something to be avoided. I think it's a Freud reference, but I'm not sure.
It always make me think of audiophiles tweaking their gear and talking about audio yet never reaching their goal.


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## MarcelNL

perfect is the enemy of good....or analysis paralysis are both well known terms, I don't think its an issue because I follow the 'challenge everything' and 'Hear for yourself' paradigms ;-)

I also manage to 'just listen' to approx. 5 hours of music a day


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> I don't think its an issue


Famous last words..!


MarcelNL said:


> I also manage to 'just listen' to approx. 5 hours of music a day


5 hours is alot if you are listening critically. When I was in form 8 hours was about the limit for me..


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## gregfisk

The pursuit of the best sound possible is half of the fun, or for me it used to be. I spent several years trying to get a digital front end to sound as non digital as possible. It took a lot of swapping out of gear and understanding of why things were what they were. The hardest part for me was getting the system to sound organic without losing the detail. I could get the sound warm and inviting but would then lose all of the nuances or I could get all of the detail but the sound was harsh and fatiguing. For me the dac was a key element in my success but ultimately everything matters and how it works together.


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## damiano

gregfisk said:


> The pursuit of the best sound possible is half of the fun, or for me it used to be. I spent several years trying to get a digital front end to sound as non digital as possible. It took a lot of swapping out of gear and understanding of why things were what they were. The hardest part for me was getting the system to sound organic without losing the detail. I could get the sound warm and inviting but would then lose all of the nuances or I could get all of the detail but the sound was harsh and fatiguing. For me the dac was a key element in my success but ultimately everything matters and how it works together.


So, which dac did you end up with? 

Your post is very recognisable. I've also come at a point where I now have a system with which I'm quite happy. If I need to choose between organic ('musical') and hearing all the details I will choose organic. 

A lot of hifi/hi-end sounds exactly like that, hifi. And not like music. Lots of gear is made with critical listeners in mind: there should be details, soundstage, bass, and so on. The result is that in my view lots of hi end sounds somewhat artificial. 

I had that experience with a 3000 euro Audiomat tube amp. At first I was very impressed, but soon I discovered that every recording was getting this Audiomat 'sauce'. Meanwhile, I also had a 47 Laboratory Shigaraki (op-amp) on loan by a dealer, and here I was very unimpressed at first. Nothing stood out. But the dealer insisted I gave it a few weeks and indeed it won me over at some point. Very true to the source. 

So, now I play with a 47 Labs Gaincard, which is by the way an ideal DIY project. I have 2 pairs of Jean Marie Reynaud speakers (very transparent but with a smidgen of warmth), and 47 Labs digital. I'm considering getting a turntable again, after having had Technics SL1210s in the past. I'm now thinking of getting the new Technics 1210 GR or either a Kuzma Stabi S. I might get a tube amp at some point for my second pair of speakers, but that's it. I don't see myself changing my current speakers and 47 Labs amp at all.


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## Keith Sinclair

Way look at it whatever floats your boat.


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## LostHighway

Wahnamhong said:


> So, which dac did you end up with?
> 
> Your post is very recognisable. I've also come at a point where I now have a system with which I'm quite happy. If I need to choose between organic ('musical') and hearing all the details I will choose organic.
> 
> A lot of hifi/hi-end sounds exactly like that, hifi. And not like music. Lots of gear is made with critical listeners in mind: there should be details, soundstage, bass, and so on. The result is that in my view lots of hi end sounds somewhat artificial.
> 
> I had that experience with a 3000 euro Audiomat tube amp. At first I was very impressed, but soon I discovered that every recording was getting this Audiomat 'sauce'. Meanwhile, I also had a 47 Laboratory Shigaraki (op-amp) on loan by a dealer, and here I was very unimpressed at first. Nothing stood out. But the dealer insisted I gave it a few weeks and indeed it won me over at some point. Very true to the source.
> 
> So, now I play with a 47 Labs Gaincard, which is by the way an ideal DIY project. I have 2 pairs of Jean Marie Reynaud speakers (very transparent but with a smidgen of warmth), and 47 Labs digital. I'm considering getting a turntable again, after having had Technics SL1210s in the past. I'm now thinking of getting the new Technics 1210 GR or either a Kuzma Stabi S. I might get a tube amp at some point for my second pair of speakers, but that's it. I don't see myself changing my current speakers and 47 Labs amp at all.



I like both the J M Reynaud speakers (at least the ones I have heard) and the 47 Labs amp but I'm always a bit dubious when I hear the term "musical" with regard to audio systems. At least here in the States it often implies a bunch of additive distortions, sometimes to the point of sounding rather syrupy. I will certainly grant that some systems can be far too clinical but given a choice between euphonic distortions and faithfulness to source I'll usually choose the latter. I'm also not terribly interested in "live" SPLs and dynamic swings. In a home situation >100dB peaks aren't that appealing to me nor is the live experience of many instruments or voices at 2 meters.


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## damiano

I think it depends on how someone defines musical? The 47 Labs Shigaraki amp is interesting here. I find this amp musical because of the gorgeous mids and tone colours. Very life like, like someone is singing in your living room. And a trumpet will have ‘colour’. Almost daily I’m being suddenly struck by a particular voice or piano tone, with me doing some other thing. That to me defines musical. Admittedly this is also in large part to my JM Reynauds (I have Trentes and Emeraudes).

But at the same this Shiga amp compresses the frequency extremes, i.e. it will not go all the way to the highest highs nor the lowest lows. That is the trade off. It is still faithful to the source though. The more expensive Gaincard does include the frequency extremes.


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## MarcelNL

IMO it's not the >100dB peaks that are appealing but the capability to make large dB swings without loads of overshoot is what makes dynamics...control is key for speakers


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## MarcelNL

The music IMO is is not in the basic notes, the basic notes reside in hifi...but music starts with the overtones etc...just listen (and look) for example at Arcadi Volodos playing the piano, whilst he is playing he literally looks at the overtones that intermingle in front of him, and he messes them around...I've seen him perform live, it really is what he does and what IMO makes him a maestro, mesmerizingly good...f.e. Volodos in Vienna, just listen....if your system is capable you'll know what I mean.


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## gregfisk

Wahnamhong, I have a Lampizator Atlantic Dac. This is a nos tube dac that is made in Poland. It has several inputs and outputs both balanced and single ended along with its digital inputs. It also has a volume control so I don’t need a preamp. This feature I absolutely love because it allows me the opportunity to put my money into the dac rather than having to spend it on a preamp.


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## LostHighway

MarcelNL said:


> The music IMO is is not in the basic notes, the basic notes reside in hifi...but music starts with the overtones etc...just listen (and look) for example at Arcadi Volodos playing the piano, whilst he is playing he literally looks at the overtones that intermingle in front of him, and he messes them around...I've seen him perform live, it really is what he does and what IMO makes him a maestro, mesmerizingly good...f.e. Volodos in Vienna, just listen....if your system is capable you'll know what I mean.




I think our preferences in music very much color what we want from an audio system. My listening is a mixture of jazz including the very modern, rock, R&B, afro pop, Indian classical (both Carnatic and North Indian), gamelan, Middle Eastern music (for lack of a better catch all), blues, folk, singer-songwriters, c&w, and classical (mostly Baroque and early Classical plus 20th C and "new music" classical - far more chamber music than large orchestras). The line between jazz and new music classical has become increasingly blurry in recent decades. Jazz has also become very interested in extended techniques so manipulating overtones is a frequent area of exploration.
The relative derth of really well recorded music also bears note. It is rare to find recordings with more than 20dB of dynamic range regardless of genre, a fraction of the potential dynamic swings of live music.


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## tcmx3

MarcelNL said:


> The music IMO is is not in the basic notes, the basic notes reside in hifi...but music starts with the overtones etc...just listen (and look) for example at Arcadi Volodos playing the piano, whilst he is playing he literally looks at the overtones that intermingle in front of him, and he messes them around...I've seen him perform live, it really is what he does and what IMO makes him a maestro, mesmerizingly good...f.e. Volodos in Vienna, just listen....if your system is capable you'll know what I mean.




mostly just want to say this is an *extremely* good album.

I used to be into vintage Macs and ARs but these days Ive bailed and just use Adam powered monitors. Lot of sound for the money & nothing to mess with, really.


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## MarcelNL

LostHighway said:


> I think our preferences in music very much color what we want from an audio system. My listening is a mixture of jazz including the very modern, rock, R&B, afro pop, Indian classical (both Carnatic and North Indian), gamelan, Middle Eastern music (for lack of a better catch all), blues, folk, singer-songwriters, c&w, and classical (mostly Baroque and early Classical plus 20th C and "new music" classical - far more chamber music than large orchestras). The line between jazz and new music classical has become increasingly blurry in recent decades. Jazz has also become very interested in extended techniques so manipulating overtones is a frequent area of exploration.
> The relative derth of really well recorded music also bears note. It is rare to find recordings with more than 20dB of dynamic range regardless of genre, a fraction of the potential dynamic swings of live music.




My 'problem' (not really) is that I'm a musical omnivore and listen to a very wide range of music (from ancient music and ethnic folk to dance and modern classical), and I want my system capable of catering for all of it. Some music only becomes 'listenable' at a certain level of sound quality for me (applies to me and def not for everyone), ten years ago I'd have never thought that I would be listening to medieval choral music or stuff like Hildegard von Bingen (around 1100 AD), or modern ('quality') dance (stuff like Trentemoller, Apparat, Moderat, Pole etc) 
Sandwiched in between is my all time favorite for German 'Lieder' from Schubert Schumann Mahler etc, so solo or solo and piano, my system needs to cope with all of the intricacies of those genres well enough to please me. Needless to say that makes for a bumpy ride, but a system that is designed properly should be able to cater all genres within limits....a 12 cm cone is never going to be capable of adequately reproducing the sheer wall of volume required for hard rock or orchestral work, in the end it's analogue to car engines, there is no better substitute for surface area than more surface area.


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## MarcelNL

tcmx3 said:


> mostly just want to say this is an *extremely* good album.
> 
> I used to be into vintage Macs and ARs but these days Ive bailed and just use Adam powered monitors. Lot of sound for the money & nothing to mess with, really.


I have seen many famous musicians live, and most in the 'Concertgebouw' Amsterdam, seeing...experiencing.... Volodos in a sort of a 'pop up' performance in the small town I happen to live in now was something else....not of this planet, breathtaking, transformational stellar performance so far beyond what I knew before....even more so when I learned he does like 30 performances a year...a great interpretation of the notes is one thing, he takes it to the level two three steps beyond that!


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> a 12 cm cone is never going to be capable of adequately reproducing the sheer wall of volume required for hard rock or orchestral work


Let me put you in a small room with a boombox playing Fun House by The Stooges and we'll have a chat.. Guaranteed to draw an emotional responce..!

Seriously, I would hate to experience the volume of an orchestra or rock band in my living room


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## MarcelNL

hahaha, I did not intend to say that I want full on reproduction of a rock band or extended classical orchestra in my living room....What I was aiming at is that a system needs to be capable of displacing air if it should be capable of giving a hint of the real deal...


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## gregfisk

Wahnamhong said:


> I think it depends on how someone defines musical? The 47 Labs Shigaraki amp is interesting here. I find this amp musical because of the gorgeous mids and tone colours. Very life like, like someone is singing in your living room. And a trumpet will have ‘colour’. Almost daily I’m being suddenly struck by a particular voice or piano tone, with me doing some other thing. That to me defines musical. Admittedly this is also in large part to my JM Reynauds (I have Trentes and Emeraudes).
> 
> But at the same this Shiga amp compresses the frequency extremes, i.e. it will not go all the way to the highest highs nor the lowest lows. That is the trade off. It is still faithful to the source though. The more expensive Gaincard does include the frequency extremes.



your definition of musical is spot on as the Aussies would say. Musical is hearing allof the nuances in the music and the overtones that MarcelNM was talking about. I’m okay with-loud spl’s if they produce the dynamics in the recording. I’m guessing Marcel’s speakers produce them in spades with all that surface area. My duel 12” servo subs in each speaker help as well but only on the lower frequencies. My large 14” midrange does a good job but not what can be done with a large horn speaker.


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## Lars

I like my drummer to be musical. My amps and speakers, not so much..


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## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> I like my drummer to be musical. My amps and speakers, not so much..


I get the feeling you are still trolling ;-) 
Musical is a catch phrase not a cuss word


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## Lars

Since we have drifted a little off topic, let me bring us back on track..

One of my favorite things about DIY-audio is that you build things to your own liking.
As an example, I have my stuff in my living room, so I like to keep it simple without a lot of knobs and switches.
Like @gregfisk I chose to control my volume with my DAC and since all my sources are digital it keeps things nice and simple.
Here is a pic of my dac and amp. 




I wish I had a pic of the inside of my amp but it's dual linear power supply's feeding two Hypex UCD180HG modules.


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> I get the feeling you are still trolling ;-)
> Musical is a catch phrase not a cuss word


Musical is an actual word. The audiophile community just stole it and turned it into BS*


*thats trolling ;-)


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## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> Musical is an actual word. The audiophile community just stole it and turned it into BS*
> 
> 
> *thats trolling ;-)


true!


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## MarcelNL

Most DACs output resolution goes down when you adjust volume in the digital domain, there are some that use clever techniques to avoid that effect the best they can, IMO there is no DAC to date that outperforms a shunt stepped ladder volume control.


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> Most DACs output resolution goes down when you adjust volume in the digital domain, there are some that use clever techniques to avoid that effect the best they can, IMO there is no DAC to date that outperforms a shunt stepped ladder volume control.


You keep talking bollocks. 
My attenuation is 100% analog.


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## Keith Sinclair

I have individual channel power circuits & digital to analog converters in my Yamaha CD 
S1000. Also running Yamaha receiver their top of the line. Since I'm not DIY that's my younger 
brother he is talented musician piano, guitar, tenor sax. His real job is in electronics.


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## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> Most DACs output resolution goes down when you adjust volume in the digital domain, there are some that use clever techniques to avoid that effect the best they can, IMO there is no DAC to date that outperforms a shunt stepped ladder volume control.



that is definitely not the case with my dac. You may want to take a look at what I have. It is truly amazing.


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## MarcelNL

I know what Lampi does! good stuff!


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## gregfisk

Lars said:


> Since we have drifted a little off topic, let me bring us back on track..
> 
> One of my favorite things about DIY-audio is that you build things to your own liking.
> As an example, I have my stuff in my living room, so I like to keep it simple without a lot of knobs and switches.
> Like @gregfisk I chose to control my volume with my DAC and since all my sources are digital it keeps things nice and simple.
> Here is a pic of my dac and amp.
> View attachment 129928
> 
> I wish I had a pic of the inside of my amp but it's dual linear power supply's feeding two Hypex UCD180HG modules.


I’ve read that the amp modules that you’re using are very good. I haven’t heard that particular amp but I’m sure it’s nice. Being able to build your own amps is pretty fun and definitely makes the hobby more affordable. Your case looks good in the picture. That’s a downfall of upgrading a vintage amp into something amazing. It ends up being the ugly duckling that turns into a  swan. At least on the inside.


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## MarcelNL

So today a new experiment in the quest for good food for audio, adding a balanced isolation transformer to keep the crud from the power line out....we'll see what it does once it fires up, hopefully not literally (@3000VA)


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## Lars

Isolation transformers only work if your mains cable cost more than 500 euro


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## gregfisk

Let us know if you can hear a difference. I use power conditioners for all of my gear but I’m not sure I can hear a difference. I mostly use them because they give me a place to plug everything in and they protect my gear from power surges.


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## MarcelNL

The verdict is good, I was already using a dedicated power 'strip' using some mystical components and a bunch of furutech NCF schuko sockets connected in a star configuration and some good power cable plug and wall outlet.
Adding the isolation transformer clearly helps in that it the noise appears to be separated/cleaned from the low level detail that usually drowns, except for that magical hour every now and then when the phases of the moon seem to favorably align with the stars or something.

So in a nutshell; if you know the 11PM effect, it's that... but more of it...and at any hour of the day (remains to be seen what happens when it's 11PM tonight)

The thing also comes in handy when snow hits the road and I need to add some weight in the trunk to keep traction on the rear wheels....it weighs a whopping 40Kg.


----------



## damiano

I am also looking at changing powercords, most likely into Furutech. Does anyone know a place where I can buy Furutech by the meter, and connectors, and where they assemble it into a cable, for not that much money? Euro-based, ideally the Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, or France. Thanks!


----------



## MarcelNL

audiophonics sells Furutech parts and cables, I buy stuff here regularly (no Furutech though)
or furutechwebshop.nl
Peacockaudio.nl (bought a 230V power board fuse holder)

and plenty others...


----------



## damiano

MarcelNL said:


> audiophonics sells Furutech parts and cables, I buy stuff here regularly (no Furutech though)
> or furutechwebshop.nl
> Peacockaudio.nl (bought a 230V power board fuse holder)
> 
> and plenty others...


Ah yes, I’ve seen these, and do they also assemble the cords? A while ago I did the same with Audio Note speaker cable through the UK shop hificollective, but what with brexit and all probably not a good idea to order there again. They did an excellent job though. I’ll ask some of the shops you mention. Thanks!


----------



## MarcelNL

assembling a cord takes aprox 1.5 hours for the first one and approx an hour for the next few (unless you select a multi strand cable where you need to strip many wires and parallel connect them. The thicker the cord the more difficult it gets to handle.

I know Peacock does assemble, I normally make my own using Viborg pure copper as I tend to dislike plating. 

When investing in power cords pls think about sockets too (both ends).


----------



## MarcelNL

hmm, another possible benefit of the balanced isolation transformer is that I can potentially omit the leak current safety switch....for safety sake I will discuss with an EE...


----------



## MarcelNL

So I finally found a decent and decently affordable linear PSU for the network switch handling audio data over fiber....NICE! Subtle but worthwhile, good thing is I have two identical switches (don't ask why) so I can do A/B fairly quickly


----------



## gregfisk

What PSU did you get? I’ve found power supplies to be important with digital audio.


----------



## MarcelNL

I found a used Allo Shanti, doing 3 Amps @5V which should be enough (only using 2 ports of the 26 the switch has),
streaming all sounds cleaner and tighter. Also tinkered a bit with the Xilinx fiberoptics card so it runs a bit cooler, it was very hot last week and it reached it's critical limit.

Last (if there ever is one) hurdle is the PSU for the audio PC...that is a big project for a linear PSU....50-70 A @12V on the EPS and a myriad of lower voltages for the ATX connector, guess I will start with the EPS as using decent wire made the most difference there.


----------



## MarcelNL

gregfisk said:


> What PSU did you get? I’ve found power supplies to be important with digital audio.


me too, much to my surprise initially as it is sort of counterintuitive after decades of 'indoctrination' telling us digital is not affected by noise etc...


----------



## MarcelNL

tinkering with some fancy caps....boy do they clean up stuff


----------



## gregfisk

What are you using the caps in? A crossover for your speakers? When I upgraded the caps on my OB midrange and tweeter it was like I removed a blanket that was in front of my speakers.


----------



## Lars

gregfisk said:


> What are you using the caps in? A crossover for your speakers? When I upgraded the caps on my OB midrange and tweeter it was like I removed a blanket that was in front of my speakers.


You bought speakers that sounds like they have a blanket in front of them?
You audiophile guys are wierd


----------



## gregfisk

I built them from scratch and the caps that were originally used in the crossover design weren’t letting all of the magic through. Kind of like ALL commercial audio equipment. There is good sounding equipment and then there is amazing sounding equipment. Most people don’t have a clue how much better a system can sound. Most systems sound like they have a blanket in front of the speakers.


----------



## MarcelNL

I don't have any caps in my speaker filters, the best cap is no cap....


----------



## MarcelNL

in true form of one step forward two steps backwards I'm now troubleshooting an issue that sounds like a data / computer issue (RAM?)....no sound but for intermittent clicking and noise. The I2S output card has been tested, the DAC is repaired and checked, so tonight is likely going to be a rebuild from scratch of the audio PC. Trouble is that the OS I'm using is dedicated to audio and does not show diagnostic data on much else than a few temperature readings....

TBC


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> a tweaked computer running Daphile, attached to more power supplies than you'd care to know about,





MarcelNL said:


> in true form of one step forward two steps backwards I'm now troubleshooting an issue that sounds like a data / computer issue (RAM?)....no sound but for intermittent clicking and noise. The I2S output card has been tested, the DAC is repaired and checked, so tonight is likely going to be a rebuild from scratch of the audio PC. Trouble is that the OS I'm using is dedicated to audio and does not show diagnostic data on much else than a few temperature readings....
> 
> TBC


I wonder what the problem is..


----------



## MarcelNL

Probably an audiophile cable 

All PSU's are checked and OK, this has to come from within the computer, but the weird thing is that the OS boots and is functional. It may be something silly like a PCIe port being disabled in the BIOS.... I will start reflashing the previous BIOS to rule out new BIOS settings that may be incorrectly set.

And we're back in the room...turned out to be some fancy-prancy Bios setting in the new version ...not sure what exactly but I suspect it may not be compatible/covered by the Linux kernel used by Daphile, at least the whole exercise serves to once more teach the lesson to stick to one step at a time.


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> Probably an audiophile cable


----------



## MarcelNL

One beneficial side effect of having reset the Bios to the most boring settings is that the 12 core CPU that will arrive tomorrow or so should work straight away


----------



## MarcelNL

The 12 core CPU is installed, and I think it'll stay there...I know it can not and should not make a difference, at least not one I can fathom or explain, yet like with a car where there is only one substitute for cubic inches (displacement) other than more cubic inches....an audio PC thrives with processing power, not that the CPU load was anything serious at 0.X percent previously...still more power means more control, depth clarity, larger image, better attack & decay and all those buzzwords audiophiles come up with.

The main task for now will be to tame it's heat...105W TDP is hard to cool passively, I have a kit with copper heatpipes and a copper CPU clamp waiting to be installed but I need to source some serious heat sinks to connect it to first. Where the octacore ran at 50ish C or so the 12 core creates more heat making the fan switch between RPMs quite nervously.


----------



## M1k3

MarcelNL said:


> The 12 core CPU is installed, and I think it'll stay there...I know it can not and should not make a difference, at least not one I can fathom or explain, yet like with a car where there is only one substitute for cubic inches (displacement) other than more cubic inches....an audio PC thrives with processing power, not that the CPU load was anything serious at 0.X percent previously...still more power means more control, depth clarity, larger image, better attack & decay and all those buzzwords audiophiles come up with.
> 
> The main task for now will be to tame it's heat...105W TDP is hard to cool passively, I have a kit with copper heatpipes and a copper CPU clamp waiting to be installed but I need to source some serious heat sinks to connect it to first. Where the octacore ran at 50ish C or so the 12 core creates more heat making the fan switch between RPMs quite nervously.


MOAR CFM!


----------



## panda

Wahnamhong said:


> We don’t have a hifi thread?? I’ve been hunting nos dacs lately, and just bought a golden oldie: a 47 Labs shigaraki usb dac. Now I’m waiting for the new Bluesound node to arrive so I can hook it up!
> 
> What are you diy-ing?



I had one of these, was very sensitive to coaxial cable rolling for some reason.


----------



## panda

Lars said:


> Great thread!
> 
> I came up in pro audio, so it is deeply embedded in me to look down on audiophiles. I do have a soft spot for anything DIY!
> 
> Here is a pic of my DAC.
> View attachment 129109


I'm an ex audiophool convert that migrated to pro audio gear


----------



## WildBoar

Panda, you may appreciate that I have a purifi amp on the way. I'm going to set up a sciencey system for the wife. The sources will be limited to Tidal streaming and our library of ripped CDs. I need to find a streaming solution she can run while using phone, ipad and/ or laptop. Will feed it through a chi-fi DAC/ preamp. Bluenode is an option for the streamer, but we already have a 2i and I'm not crazy about going that route just for a streamer.

This will be in contrast to my Class AB amp, tube preamp, TT, etc. I'm looking forward to playing with some of the new stuff that is on the market and is much more affordable then the nosebleed audiophile equipment has become.


----------



## MarcelNL

There is some great reasonably priced gear out there, no need to spend half a million buck on a system. Just keep in mind that all chains of the link are important, yet pay special attention to the front and back end...meaning source and speakers, that is where your bang for the buck is biggest. Especially speaker efficiency (and design principle) is important, the biggest challenge/trade-off area IMO is size versus efficiency.


----------



## WildBoar

The speakers are the one wildcard. I am waiting on a pair of Zu Omen 'Dirty Weekends'. The initial plan was to get a flea amp but in the months I have been waiting for the speakers to be built I reversed course on the electronics and decided to go for as neutral as possible. I may wind up with some equalization in the chain but somehow, but I can't make the system too complex or my wife will not use it. But the speakers are inexpensive enough that I should be able to sell them without much of a loss if they don't work well with the system.


----------



## MarcelNL

looking forward to hear how you like fullrange high-ish efficiency speakers!


----------



## JayGee

I have an audiolab 8000s and spendor s20s. What do I do next?


----------



## MarcelNL

JayGee said:


> I have an audiolab 8000s and spendor s20s. What do I do next?



that would depend on where you want to go, I probably misunderstand the question...are you looking to DIY anything, if so what?


----------



## JayGee

MarcelNL said:


> that would depend on where you want to go, I probably misunderstand the question...are you looking to DIY anything, if so what?


I suppose I'm just trying to mine the knowledge of a clearly very well informed group! I think the system needs an EQ. Does that seem like a sensible next step?


----------



## MarcelNL

In my opinion EQ is hardly ever adding a lot as it usually messes up the 'image' Positioning speakers properly in the room, adding some room acoustic treatment usually works well enough to overcome anything else but major shortcomings in speakers. Those shortcomings in a speaker that you cannot correct without EQ usually mean you're better off with a different speaker.
A source and an amp rarely require EQ. Room treatment nowadays can be done electronically, although that requires a lot of involvement tinkering with digital filters and time corrections. Why do you think you need EQ?


----------



## gregfisk

Everything Marcel says I agree with, except about room treatment. Nothing (in my opinion of course) can make up for good room treatment. In fact I would go so far as to say it’s just as important as speakers and source. Fixing a problem room with room correction is almost as bad as adding eq to a system. All you’re doing is adding more noise and distortion into your system, which lowers the quality of the signal and therefore the sound quality. If you need more bass move the speakers closer to the front wall, if you want less treble try changing the direction of the speakers so they’re not facing directly at your ears. Usually you just need to try the right combination of gear to get the sound to your liking. I can tell you from experience that no matter how good your equipment is it’s not going to sound good in a lousy room, especially if it’s not treated properly.


----------



## MarcelNL

@gregfisk YOu are absolutely right, if it sounded as if I was downplaying room treatment I expressed myself imprecise!
let's say that parts of room treatment can be done digitally, though I am not a believer as it usually does bad things for imaging and phase coherence (if available at all as many recording engineers seem to be phase deaf)


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> many audiophiles seem to be phase deaf)


Fixed for truth


----------



## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> Fixed for truth


I was keeping it low key, but you're absolutely right!

Though some know what they are doing, I recall a concert by Trentemöller where coming in the sound of whatever music was being played was as awful as sound can possibly can be...we asked the guys behind the desk if they knew how it sounded and their response was that they set up for the band....in short it was the 'best sound at an amplified concert I EVER heard'


----------



## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> LOL
> 
> they are good, though....in a recent head to head comparison with a mesh triode amp the tweaked to the max class D amp had to throw in the towel ( I suspect there has not been a Class D amp with a more elaborate power supply ever)
> 
> For day to day easy listening class D amps do a pretty good job, when combined with high efficiency speaker systems their sound fingerprint becomes too much IMO.



I missed this earlier response.... I couldn't agree more.


----------



## gregfisk

I went to a concert back in the 90's at a venue we have every year in Seattle called Bumbershoot. many bands play in several indoor and outdoor locations at the Seattle Center, (where the Space Needle is located ). Anyway, there was a hard rock band playing on the main floor of a multi story building with very few people there. The ceiling was very low and every single surface, walls, floor, ceiling was made out of concrete. And the ceiling was maybe 8' high at best. They were playing really loud, over 100db and it was the absolute worst sounding show I have ever heard. The sound was bouncing everywhere over and over and you couldn't hear a thing the singer was singing. I have never heard anything like it before or since. It was the perfect example on a grand scale of what a room sounds like without any treatment.


----------



## Lars

An audience works pretty well as a diffuser. Explains why Marcel experienced it sounded better at showtime as well..


----------



## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> An audience works pretty well as a diffuser. Explains why Marcel experienced it sounded better at showtime as well..


you are right, yet at that concert the room was packed already when they were playing some music.


----------



## gregfisk

Lars said:


> An audience works pretty well as a diffuser. Explains why Marcel experienced it sounded better at showtime as well..


Yes, that is why I mentioned that there was a very small audience. If the room was packed MAYBE it would have sounded better. Hard to say considering the volume and all of the concrete. Plus, if I’m being honest the band wasn’t all that good to begin with.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Let us know how you like Zu Omen loud speakers once they get broken in.


----------



## JayGee

OK - good advice. Ability to move speakers around in this room is fairly limited but I'll see what I can achieve. Cheers for the help. But is a sub an insane idea?


----------



## MarcelNL

JayGee said:


> OK - good advice. Ability to move speakers around in this room is fairly limited but I'll see what I can achieve. Cheers for the help. But is a sub an insane idea?



I don't consider any idea involving audio insane, why don't you start by describing what you want to accomplish...what sort of sound are you aiming for, what are the restrictions (WAF) etc.

Adding a sub can work though many subs just add boomy noises, which probably is OK for a home cinema set but not in case you want to 'see' what you are listening to...those Spendors should be capable of decent imaging, moving them to a good place in the room and play with the toe and distance from the wall in may be all you need to do.
First find out what sort of listening you aim for, near field, sortof studio monitor listening 

There are some great instructional video's on that topic, I usually urge folks to start there as it is easy enough to make a good speaker sound like a turd and making them shine is for free but for a bit of effort walking back and forth...count on a couple of days to tune them in.

I'd go for optimal placement, disregarding any room contraints, using whatever you can to improvise stands when needed, during the optimizing process and then see what tradeoff is acceptable for long term use.


----------



## JayGee

Not looking for boom, just slightly thicker sound. Presently, there's great clarity and I can hear the bottom notes, but if _I_ were engineering I'd want them up in the mix. I suppose looking for more a 'fun' sound without losing any of the precision. Moving gear around in this room is a pretty complex endeavor because it means moving everything. I was looking at Legend Audio stuff (am based in Australia), and thought maybe a woofer would be a fun DIY project, but then it struck me a sub is probably not the best place to start a DIY audio adventure.


----------



## MarcelNL

OK that helps, I've stated before'; there is no substitute for cone surface area like more cone surface area...your Spendor's can only move so much air with limited surface area (which at the same time makes them detailed and clear).

Adding a sub that is fast enough to keep up with your speakers limits options, a non vented enclosure does well for pulse response (non boomy) but at the expense of low end extension. With a sub you want to stay out of the lower midrange or clarity there is muddled. So first question you need to address is 'how low do you want to go' and how loud does that freq need to be (do you have a trusted non-marketing hyped freq/SPL curve of your speaker ?
Do not make the mistake to pick 20Hz as the investment in real estate and $$ is increasingly large with lowering your accepted 3dB point.

If your amp has a sub-channel or output DIYing a closed enclosure subwoofer is not that difficult, if you can close a cardboard box you can build a speaker if you get the panels cut by a good(!) carpenter or DIY shop.

If you need to develop an (active or passive) filter and or amp into the sub enclosure things get more involved, I'm sure Lars agrees if I say that a Hypex module is a good starting point.

One drawback of a sub is that phase aligning your (mono) sub with your speakers is a PITA, moving them around in the room a lot usually required.


----------



## JayGee

From what I can tell, the Spendor s20 specs include: Frequency Response: +/- 3dB 70Hz to 20Hz ; Maximum SPL: 100dBA at 1 metre ; Crossover Point: 4kHz.

There's no sub-channel on the amp - so would need to build an active system. Building a box and soldering are no issue - have the tools. I would imagine a 10" cone is probably big enough for the power handling on the speakers (70w). Hypex amp and peerless cone is a suggestion I've seen around the place. Strikes me that 30Hz is a sensible target.


----------



## MarcelNL

Think you are on the right track, I'd forget 30Hz and see what the largest enclosure is that you can put away with given the speaker you pick and go for maximum impulse response for the enclosure tuning.
Also forget any power rating, that number means that the speaker won't light up but it sure does not speak to power output! 

I reach 30Hz using 3 13"fullrange speakers per channel...


----------



## Keith Sinclair

No substitution for size. My friend would build
boxes out of medium density fiberboard. It's 
cheap & works great for very in large speaker
cabinets.


----------



## MarcelNL

There is no speaker cabinet like no cabinet


----------



## MarcelNL

I just recall I have two Podszus-Görlich 20cm chassis lying around somewhere, now a long time ago I had some freaked out studio monitors (think Sonus Faber Extrema, but faster) for which I wanted to add just a tad of low end extension. One plan was to use both chassis in a push pull config with a passive radiator in a sealed enclosure, the idea is that a PR allows you to tune lower in a smaller enclosure without the boominess and honkiness of a typical bass reflex system (that is; if you get the PR load and Box volume right). Other option was building a three way system....then I got into infinite baffle high efficiency speakers and never looked back.


----------



## MarcelNL

JayGee said:


> From what I can tell, the Spendor s20 specs include: Frequency Response: +/- 3dB 70Hz to 20Hz ; Maximum SPL: 100dBA at 1 metre ; Crossover Point: 4kHz.
> 
> There's no sub-channel on the amp - so would need to build an active system. Building a box and soldering are no issue - have the tools. I would imagine a 10" cone is probably big enough for the power handling on the speakers (70w). Hypex amp and peerless cone is a suggestion I've seen around the place. Strikes me that 30Hz is a sensible target.


something like late Siegfried Linkwitz' Thor springs to mind, using a 12" Peerless in an open baffle 'enclosure', 1 may be enough, two is better given the first audio law.
THOR - subwoofer

Have the sub quit at around 60-80Hz with a 3dB/Oct filter (this is depending on what amp module you use and if you choose to use the built-in low pass filter or use your own.....this is where the hard core experimenting starts...calculate your filter to get a feel for values and know that what you calculate is NEVER what sounds best.


----------



## gregfisk

You may want to look at Rhythmic Audio subs which you can diy. Servo subs are the best that money can buy IMO of course. They sell several versions for sealed subs or open baffle. I use 4 of the 12” GR Research paper cone versions in an open baffle configuration and couldn’t be happier.


----------



## MarcelNL

After an interlude with some gear trouble everything is now back in working order and I can continue tweaking and experimenting.

I just dampened the tweeter horns with some plasticine borrowed from my son, the sculptors wax I normally use for that purpose is in storage...I know what dampening can do, yet I'm still amazed by how much of a difference it makes.


----------



## Lars

I just put a blanket over my speakers and while I'm amazed at the difference it made I will keep tweaking..

..hopefully some Jantzen caps will sort me out..


----------



## JayGee

Thanks all - lots to digest now. I'll keep you updated.


----------



## gregfisk

I’m guessing that those class D amps you have Lars are pretty hard on the  ears. A blanket over your speakers probably makes your system tolerable to listen to .


----------



## Lars

gregfisk said:


> I’m guessing that those class D amps you have Lars are pretty hard on the  ears.


Only bad music and mindless audiophile banter hurts my ears..!



gregfisk said:


> A blanket over your speakers probably makes your system tolerable to listen to .


If only it worked on audiophiles as well!


----------



## MarcelNL

Another one in the realm of, impossible...
After having played with Intel Optane for a bit on a previous MoBo and liking the resulting SQ increase, I had to do without it as the current MB is not compatible with it.
I just installed a new NVME SSD disk, and it sounds better than a SATA SSD on a linear PSU.


----------



## Lars

I think I need more blankets..


----------



## MarcelNL

I am not sure you need any blankets, but if you want to remove some more of the blanket you probably could do so by tinkering some more with that filter.

Those Jantzen caps are nice, I have no idea what they cost when compared to Jupiter copper foil and beeswax but those were the last caps I used in a filter (the Duelunds are so prohibitively expensive and not that much better), since then I quite using them in any filter...best cap ever is no cap!
Problem with cap rolling is that you need to adjust your phase alignment between all speakers (for me a great reason to stick to 2 way)



http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble%20Homemade%20Hifi_Cap-Test-Ratings.pdf


----------



## Lars

Thanks for the advise Marcel. I didn't mod the crossover, some previous owner did. Apparently, making a joke amongst audiophiles is harder than I thought..!


----------



## MarcelNL

Making jokes amongst audiophiles is easy enough, somehow it becomes apparent that it seems easier for you to make jokes about them. Does that put you within the group of audiophiles or outside?


----------



## Lars

I love music too much to become an audiophile..


----------



## WildBoar

Made some Speakon-to-banana cables last night and hooked the new Purifi Eval-1-based amp up to the Node 2 and bookshelf speakers in my son's system. Played around streaming Tidal for a couple hours. I was pretty happy with what I was hearing, and I think another Node will be a better route than a streamer-->DAC for the system for my wife, even if it's DAC is a bit less quality than some of the more inexpensive offerings from Topping, etc. She'll only need to power up the amp (really, it can be left on all the time), and she already plays music through her phone so hopefully she will be use the system once it is fully set up (still waiting on the speakers to be built).


----------



## gregfisk

Lars said:


> I love music too much to become an audiophile..


I love music too much NOT to be an audiophile.


----------



## Lars

Damn, you guys are sensitive


----------



## WildBoar

Lars said:


> Damn, you guys are sensitive


The definition of an audiophile


----------



## inferno

i got some anaview modules here. just got them. 

i have a 2x50w @ 4ohm for my bed speaker. a bose soundlink mini that i turned into passive.
then i have a 2x100w @ 4ohm i think, that i dont know what to do with yet. 2x50w @ 8 ohms is a good starting point though.
then i have the 240 something module. its about 2x120w but the cooling fin is much much larger on this one so its designed for sustained output.
gonna try it out on my sub. i ran a 2x250w @ 8ohm amp to it before i fried the amp. my audio engineer friend calculated a max output in room for that combo to about 140dB. sure this new one wont do that but i can bridge 2 of them and run them as monos then i will have that 250w/chan again at 8 ohms. 

best part with these anaview modules is that the psu is built in on the board so no need for a psu.


----------



## Bobby2shots

JayGee said:


> OK - good advice. Ability to move speakers around in this room is fairly limited but I'll see what I can achieve. Cheers for the help. But is a sub an insane idea?



It's an excellent idea. You'll add incredible dimension to your sound, but,,,,,, use the sub very sparingly. Most newcomers to subs tend to over-use them. I prefer very lightly blended to the point where they don't stick out like a sore thumb, but rather, just add "fill" and "weight" and "depth" to the sound. Properly hi-passed, you'll also reduce the low-end workload of your mains. That said, there's also no point whatsoever, in shooting for 30Hz. Reasonably flat to 70 or 60 Hz is more than enough.

Don't even bother building your own,,,, look for a smallish powered P/A sub with a built-in hi-pass filter. You can probably find one "used" for a few hundred dollars, or, rent one for a day or two from pro-sound rental places. Set the hi-pass filter somewhere between 100-120 hz. Best to simply use your ears for that one.

Subs are omni-directional, so, you can place a single sub virtually anywhere in the room. I won't bother getting into specific placements, but walls, corners, floors, can fine-tune a sub output-wise. (full-space, half-space, quarter-space, eighth-space, etc. (roughly 3dB gain per "step")

FWIW, I'm also a Spendor owner; SA3 active cabinets. I also have roughly 20-25 others, mostly Pro-Audio stuff (P/A systems)


----------



## gregfisk

Everything Bobby said regarding not over doing the bass. You want to turn up the gain until you can hear the bass sounding prominent in the song, then back it off so it blends flawlessly with your current speakers. Then turn it on and off and compare the sound with and without the sub on. It should just add to the bottom end without drawing attention to itself. It’s takes some time to get it right but it’s definitely a good idea. Make sure you build a sub that’s designed for music or buy one that is. You don’t want a movie sub because it will never blend properly with your speakers. Subs for movies are often slow and boomy and don’t do music that well.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Yep, something like this would be perfect. Clean, tight, and punchy. All it needs is a line-level signal, and access to any 110/120v wall outlet. These are often used in small "blues" clubs, seating 80-100. Small enough for your living room, and readily available. Totally bullet-proof, and readily re-sellable. Stay away from most of the compact 10" and 12" models in this category and price-range, and go with the 15" models. There are a lot of "good" small-driver hi-quality subs available in hi-end pro-audio, but they generally cost an arm and a leg. Not necessary for your application.









Yorkville Sound - Elite Series Powered Subwoofer - 15 inch Woofer - 720 Watts


Yorkville Sound - Elite Series Powered Subwoofer - 15 inch Woofer - 720 Watts




www.long-mcquade.com


----------



## MarcelNL

I spent an evening (loooooong evening) listening to first pressings comparing second and thirds, and stereo vs mono...
Just may have to get large idler turntable to play some mono records, the presence, directness and musicality is uncanny.

anyone with a nice transcription idler in an attic? dust is no issue


----------



## Lars

JayGee said:


> Presently, there's great clarity and I can hear the bottom notes, but if _I_ were engineering I'd want them up in the mix. I suppose looking for more a 'fun' sound without losing any of the precision.


That's most likely because of room modes. While this might suck big time, it's basic physics and won't be helped by more equipment.


----------



## Bobby2shots

JayGee said:


> Not looking for boom, just slightly thicker sound. Presently, there's great clarity and I can* hear* the bottom notes, *but if I were engineering I'd want them up in the mix.* I suppose *looking for more a 'fun' sound *without losing any of the precision.



You're hearing the notes vs "feeling" the notes???. Are you looking for more "thump" from a kick-drum for example???

Regarding "wishing you were re-engineering the mix", sounds to me like you're experiencing "listener fatigue". Listener fatigue occurs when the brain detects a difference between "hearing with your ears" and hearing (feeling) with you body. A classic example might be when listening to a high-energy rock song, you find the bottom-end lacking,,,, so, you crank up the volume to "feel" what your brain tells you it "should" sound like,,, but by doing that, you've now put the hi-end off balance, and probably pushing to distortion level. You end up with one or the other, but not what you're really looking for.

Frequency response curves for most consumer audio gear are mostly B.S. Don't assume that because a spec-sheets claims a frequency response,,,let's say,,,, to 45Hz on the bottom end, that you'll actually get there. Ask yourself,,, is that response from only one component, a raw driver for example? Is it "actually measured or theoretical" and at what distance? in what "acoustic space" (full-space, half-space, quarter-space etc), and at what levels? Your frequency response curve will typically vary wildly as you increase volume. This is where a decent active sub will help you immeasurably, otherwise, you're just chasing unicorns.


----------



## JayGee

This is all good advice - I very much appreciate everyone's input. I feel like that 1500w sub may be overkill for the rest of my system - Spendor S20 speakers biamped with 60w and 100w Audiolab amps (8000S and 8000P). Also, there's not heaps of space in the room. That's why I was thinking of building something closer to a 10" driver cabinet. There's no lack of capacity in the speakers as they produce really excellent bass - and realistically enough for the size of the room - but perhaps I'm looking for more control over the presentation and mood generally, and a sub is a way to achieve it. I'm not out to get the lowest frequency just some more richness I suppose.


----------



## Bobby2shots

JayGee said:


> This is all good advice - I very much appreciate everyone's input. I feel like that 1500w sub may be overkill for the rest of my system - Spendor S20 speakers biamped with 60w and 100w Audiolab amps (8000S and 8000P). Also, there's not heaps of space in the room. That's why I was thinking of building something closer to a 10" driver cabinet. There's no lack of capacity in the speakers as they produce really excellent bass - and realistically enough for the size of the room - but perhaps I'm looking for more control over the presentation and mood generally, and a sub is a way to achieve it.* I'm not out to get the lowest frequency just some more richness I suppose.*



That's an ideal goal,,, clean,,,,tight,,,, punchy. That said, for what little it costs to rent a sub just for a tryout, it may be well worth your while.

Regarding "power",,,Don't get hung-up on "power ratings". All things being equal, each halving of power, is only 3dB lower per step. Conversely, each doubling of power gives you 3dB more per step. Example; Let's say you're getting 120dB from a 250w amp,,, at 500w you'll get 123dB,,,at 1,000w 126dB and 2000w 129dB. Not a huge output difference considering. Most people only "perceive" a doubling of power with a 10dB increase.

Also. a lot of active speakers are rated in "music power" vs actual WRMS. Actually, that's not a bad thing because music frequency and volume are constantly fluctuating,,,, and not a constant tone, so "music power" is a valid rating, as long as you understand that.

If you're going to build your own, get a true sub-frequency driver,,,, not a mid-range woofer that's posing as a low-frequency driver. If you want to know how loud it can get, just look at the sensitivity rating, and you'll typically see something like xxx dB @ 1w/1meter in full-space, or 1/2 space. Let's say it's a high output driver and you're getting 100dB/1w/1m, then you should get 103dB at 2w/1m,,, [email protected]/1m,,,[email protected]/1m,,, [email protected]/1m,, [email protected]/1m,, [email protected]/1m, [email protected]/1m, [email protected]/1m, [email protected]/1m, [email protected]/1m and so on, until "power compression" start to kick in. That's the point where each doubling can no longer be supported by the driver, and each doubling of power will give you a fraction of the previous doubling per step.

I strongly recommend you try the rental route before building your own. Sub cabinets need to be completely inert, so build quality and materials are important. Many active subs have built-in complex circuitry that can make your life much simpler. Power-amps are built-in,,, they generally have cooling fans, and basic pre-amps, and EQ with active crossovers, line-in, line out, appropriate sweepable hi-pass filters. overheat protection, etc.

Good luck.

P.S. Avoid bandpass subs,,, they're loud, but often "one note wonders".


----------



## MarcelNL

Totally agree on the bandpass sub, it's pretty pointless (unless for home theatre, but even then)

I'd like to add some caution or better, manage expectations a bit, about power rating of speakers chassis. Those numbers mostly tell you at what power the coil gets cooked and the speaker becomes unusable. Few speakers work in a linear fashion, doubling input power does not get you the sound pressure increase you expect (3 dB more doubles perceived loudness) in dB.

You likely do not even want (or need) to go that high in spl, 100dB in a ROOM is LOUD, I'm using 3 full range high efficiency speakers, the combo comes in at approx. 105dB/W/m, my usual listening level is around 70dB sometimes 80. My amp puts out something like 7 Watts, that amp is a Vintage Cinema backup amp and speaker for theatres up to like 500-700 seats and probably does not put out much more than a fraction of one Watt most of the time. Efficiency is king.

Speakers start to distort the further the cone's voice coil is swinging outside the magnet, (max cone excursion is expressed in Xmax, usually found with the Thiele-Small parameters). Large high efficiency chassis do better as they need less power and need less excursion, using more chassis doing the same thing also lowers distortion.
Now distortion itself is not a major issue between 60-120Hz, yet there are plenty subs on the market that just rumble and grumble without much definition simply because the speakers chassis are being abused by the design parameters.

Somehow it seems you may want to start one step earlier, before adding anything, you may be after something very different, and perhaps room treatment is the solution, sound sloshing around in a room muddies the sound image in a major way like Lars mentioned. Adding a sub is then likely only worsening the situation.

If it indeed is a sub you are seeking;
You may be able to narrow your 'ask' by test flying a sub, rent one or go to a good (not a box pusher like a chain) but a shop with stuff in your price range and seasoned staff knowing what they are talking about; ask if you can test a sub in your home before buying, or audition a setup resembling yours with and without a sub. You may even be able to bring in your speakers and amps and work with them to identify your issue as finding a solution starts with pinpointing the root cause.


----------



## JayGee

Thanks - yes - it sounds sensible to try a few things out before committing down any path. Part of my thinking is that the 2-way Spendor S20 is the same tweeter and mid driver as the 3-way Spendor SP100 but without the bass driver. I think the SP100 had 12" bass drivers. So am an entirely wrong to imagine that adding a 10 or 12" cone (or 2) might bring the system closer to what that very famous speaker achieved?


----------



## MarcelNL

It all starts with what YOU define as what you are looking for. I haven't read a real clear description that makes me think adding a sub is the solution, perhaps test flying one is the are to start so you can see if that answers your ideas of where you want to go. It can be very hard to describe what you are after in a speaker system, identifying the need is however important if you hope for an efficient (read cheaper as you do not have to buy multiple 'solutions' to arrive at your goal)


----------



## panda

WildBoar said:


> The definition of an audiophile


definition of audiophile is "has sh1tty taste in music, enjoys listening to bells and organs"


----------



## Bobby2shots

What I enjoy about using a good well-blended-in sub is, having that sense of weight and authority to the sound, especially in quieter/low-volume scenarios,,, for example. the "hum" of a large orchestra when playing a softer passage. Generally, when I'm setting up my systems, I'll also use a well recorded "Live" Jazz Combo recording. I want the sub to virtually disappear, but leave me with added depth. Above all, it has to sound "natural".

For "Loud" music off a small bookshelf system, that's another matter,,, but not necessarily that much different in approach. It can be very easy to overdrive a smaller system at high volume, and still not get that punch and depth you'd like to have. This is where hi-passing your sub/mains at 120Hz vs 100Hz for example, off-loads the low-frequency workload from the smallish mains to the sub(s). You'll get better definition, less distortion from the mains.

Here's a handy little chart that shows music frequency response from various instruments, as well as the human voice. You'll notice that there's not a heckuva lot below 60 Hz, and why I made that recommendation earlier. This can be really handy for setting up your EQ when recording "Live".


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## Bobby2shots

Here's a handy tone generator to show what various frequencies actually sound like.









Online Tone Generator


Simply enter your desired frequency and press play to hear your tone. It's free, simple and easy to use.




onlinetonegenerator.com


----------



## Bobby2shots

panda said:


> definition of audiophile is "has sh1tty taste in music, enjoys listening to bells and organs"



yeah,,, gimme piccolo's any day of the week. and who doesn't like a killer accordian solo,,,,, take it away Myronnnnnnnnnn!!!


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## Bobby2shots

*Crank the volume on this one.*


----------



## MarcelNL

I had to get a new MoBo as the old one suddenly did not want to cooperate with 2 of the 4 RAM slots, and got me a Aorus Master which has 14 direct current supply 'phases', the hassle of taking the whole apart and rebuilding it from scratch was well worth the effort. Now on to make another 9 pin EPS cable as this board has 2 8pin EPS connectors to spread the load a bit better.

The combo of the new MoBo and AMD Ryzen 9 brings a whole new set of dynamics and details in the room, listening sessions stretch into the wee hours. It's almost as if a sound barrier is gone so much energy is flowing


----------



## soigne_west

MarcelNL said:


> I had to get a new MoBo as the old one suddenly did not want to cooperate with 2 of the 4 RAM slots, and got me a Aorus Master which has 14 direct current supply 'phases', the hassle of taking the whole apart and rebuilding it from scratch was well worth the effort. Now on to make another 9 pin EPS cable as this board has 2 8pin EPS connectors to spread the load a bit better.
> 
> The combo of the new MoBo and AMD Ryzen 9 brings a whole new set of dynamics and details in the room, listening sessions stretch into the wee hours. It's almost as if a sound barrier is gone so much energy is flowing



Have you messed with PBO at all? If not I highly suggest.


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## MarcelNL

Lead Oxide?  

Can you pls unabbreviate?


----------



## WildBoar

panda said:


> definition of audiophile is "has sh1tty taste in music, enjoys listening to bells and organs"


Ha ha, this thread some good Panda wisdom


----------



## soigne_west

“Precision Boost Overdrive (PBO) is an opportunistic automated overclocking mechanism found in various AMD processors that pushes the system power budget beyond its rated specifications in order to allow Precision Boost to act more aggressively and achieve higher performance”

I was pretty much ably to easily undervolt my 5800x both lowering temps by 10c and get higher multi and single core clocks.


----------



## soigne_west

It won’t make your music sound any better though


----------



## MarcelNL

Yeah Ryzen was designed for OC, The BIOS contains a ton of settings for t hat purpose, yet most of the stuff does not help SQ any bit. 
Most of the built in gizmo's need to be switched off.


----------



## soigne_west

It’s actually pretty impressive stuff. I’m not really an overclocker but I was running hot. I was pretty easily able to drop voltages and thermals by 10c while boosting single and multicore clock speeds.


----------



## MarcelNL

So adding another DIY 8 PIN EPS cable to the motherboard now feeding it through 8 pins with 12V and 8 pins to ground brought even more dynamics and power, and control....and ease of projecting....wow, crazy stuff! Gonna be late tonight!

BTW; still using a fan cooled heat sink, at low speed now at around 50 'C....heatsinks are ordered...passive heat pipes and adapters are in house....next stage passive cooling!


----------



## Lars

#placeboisreal


----------



## MarcelNL

#freeyourmindofdogmasisreal


----------



## ian

Free your mind of dog. Ma! Sis! Real.


----------



## MarcelNL

Most recent addition is change of speaker wiring, replacing the last meter or so with solid core UP OCC, never got around to it...should have done that long ago.

O and I added a test version of a new kind of NVME SSD card on a femto clock accepting external linear power supply, there is one major drawback...listening sessions now end in the wee hours. (I dread the price) tag.


----------



## JayGee

So I'm going to build one of the Rythmik DS1200 subwoofers from the kit. Seems like a nice foray into the world of DIY.


----------



## gregfisk

JayGee said:


> So I'm going to build one of the Rythmik DS1200 subwoofers from the kit. Seems like a nice foray into the world of DIY.



You are going to be very happy with that sub or any of his subs for that matter. And Brian the designer and owner of Rythmik is very helpful if you have questions about anything. I had one of my servo sub amplifiers fail on me and he was great to work with when I needed it repaired.


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## coxhaus

I tell you what I have been impressed with is my JBL Partybox 100. I bought it for outside listening but I realized I could Bluetooth my Apple TV to the JBL and the bass sound is way better than my 70-inch Vizio plus better overall sound. The JBL is not real detailed but very musical and more detailed than my TV. I have a very large living room and the JBL fills the room with sound.

I am tired of receivers getting out dated.


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## dafox

.


----------



## hukdizzle

Not truly a DIY ordeal, but I did build a bottlehead crack with a speedball upgrade a couple of years back.



Sounds great, I put some mild upgrades in it like an alps pot and such.


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## MarcelNL

I finally got around to evaluate the femto clock'ed NVME SSD on a linear PSU....it now has some 600 hours of burn in, probably needs well as most things digital need plenty more hours but my patience (and days off) ran out...

Cleaner sound, lower noise floor with clearer leading and trailing edges of wave forms, more low end control and added weight to everything, this thing is not leaving my audio PC unless cost is prohibitive.....it does better than the Intel Optane stick I briefly used.
The designer jiggles regular 3D NAND chips to make it behave like SLC, and sticks a femto clock onto the NVME SDD stick, adding the option for external power...


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## MarcelNL

RMAF is dead, Rocky Mountains Audio Fest is no more....R.I.P.


----------



## gregfisk

Is this like forever??? I’ve never gone to either one but always wanted to. I’ve learned more from having get togethers where people bring their gear and reading on forums like Audiocircle than any other way. Word of mouth with passionate audiophiles who love music and like getting goose bumps listening to it has helped me a lot.


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## MarcelNL

gregfisk said:


> Is this like forever??? I’ve never gone to either one but always wanted to. I’ve learned more from having get togethers where people bring their gear and reading on forums like Audiocircle than any other way. Word of mouth with passionate audiophiles who love music and like getting goose bumps listening to it has helped me a lot.



From what I read it is definite, and forever.. Rocky Mountain International Audio Fest - High-end Consumer Audio Show

I hear you, get togethers and listening to different gear and setups are more important than anything else for me also. All the more reason for me to look forward to BAM! in October, where they will have a full Klangfilm Euronor Junior set up


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## MarcelNL

Finally got around to repair the DIY I2S interlink between the PC and DAC, and once more I'm blown away with how much effect cabling material also has on digital...


----------



## M1k3

MarcelNL said:


> Finally got around to repair the DIY I2S interlink between the PC and DAC, and once more I'm blown away with how much effect cabling material also has on digital...



How crappy were the original cables? Thinner than toothpicks? Because digital is well, digital. It either works or it doesn't. 0 or 1.


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## MarcelNL

M1k3 said:


> How crappy were the original cables? Thinner than toothpicks? Because digital is well, digital. It either works or it doesn't. 0 or 1.


even a thinner than a toothpick wire will transmit 0 and 1...so yeah, sure. I was using a piece of CAT 8.1 as my DIY cable was physically broken, if you like I can let you hear the difference between various cables, CPU's, CPU temperature, PSU's, 'bit perfect' playback systems, playing from RAM versus playing from SSD or various disk storage solutions for that matter. None of it should be capable of affecting sound, yet they do.


----------



## M1k3




----------



## gregfisk

I’ve never noticed any real difference in sound when it comes to cables but the difference between lossless and mp3 is huge!


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## LostHighway

gregfisk said:


> I’ve never noticed any real difference in sound when it comes to cables but the difference between lossless and mp3 is huge!



I think you have to talk bit rates to provide some context. IME 128 kbps MP3 is grossly inferior to redbook (44.1/16 bit) CD, 256 and 320 get closer but the difference is still significant on a good system. I hear about as much difference among analogue signal cables as I do between 256kbps MP3 and a redbook CD. I haven't done enough digital cable swapping to have an informed opinion but I have an open mind on the subject - both Don Moses (Wadia founder) and John Stronzer (Bel Canto founder) have acknowledged that they heard some differences where at least the broad outlines of digital theory suggested it was impossible.
My audio interest has been dormant long enough to not be fully current on high bit rate and high bit depth .WAV or .FLAC files.


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## MarcelNL

Bitrates certainly matter, there is even a small but clear difference playing uncompressed lossless (FLAC) files versus the 'original' WAV.

Digital cables matter, the differences are small but they are there although they are not in my top three list of priorities when building a system they can a.o. help 'voicing' the final product.


----------



## gregfisk

LostHighway said:


> I think you have to talk bit rates to provide some context. IME 128 kbps MP3 is grossly inferior to redbook (44.1/16 bit) CD, 256 and 320 get closer but the difference is still significant on a good system. I hear about as much difference among analogue signal cables as I do between 256kbps MP3 and a redbook CD. I haven't done enough digital cable swapping to have an informed opinion but I have an open mind on the subject - both Don Moses (Wadia founder) and John Stronzer (Bel Canto founder) have acknowledged that they heard some differences where at least the broad outlines of digital theory suggested it was impossible.
> My audio interest has been dormant long enough to not be fully current on high bit rate and high bit depth .WAV or .FLAC files.


I should clarify what I mean when I say any real difference. I have perceived slight differences in sound with different digital cables but to me it’s not enough to really matter. With any of the lossless formats I can hear differences in their sound but mp3 just sounds dull and lifeless to me.


----------



## MarcelNL

So tonight was an all hands on deck tinkering evening, I installed the passive cooling system I cobbled together...bending 6 heatpipes was outsourced to my GF, mounting them, reorganizing my setup as I now needed to create clearance for a 300W heatsink, it all took a while but it's playing.
After an hour or so core temp is stabilizing (probably not yet completely) around 53'C, and sound quality took a nice jump in the right direction.


----------



## coxhaus

I used Jriver back 7 years ago to convert all my CDs to digital format. I built a computer for play back that was a low voltage Xeon chip with a heat pipe stack and no fan. I ran a single hard drive. No CD, or any other hardware. Just a top of line power supply, motherboard, ram, and hard drive. I ran Windows server stripped down and no antivirus. Digital cable made a difference. It sounded good. But in the long run the bass was not as good as my Denon DVD-9000 transport fed into an AMR777 DAC. I could switch back and forth between the 2.

PS
I left off the power supply cable needs to be a good one also for best sound out of the PC. And the hard drive cable made a difference for both the PC and the PC you use JRiver on. I used different machines.


----------



## MarcelNL

I'm pretty sure you were on th eright track with your computer, in the end it;s all about power enabling sound...so the CPU, motherbaird and PSU are crucial, so is the output path...like with everything it all matters. 
I am now at a point where the sound is ridiculous, and having heard quite a few CD transports I dare say they cannot come close to a good music server/PC feeding a decent DAC.


----------



## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> I'm pretty sure you were on th eright track with your computer, in the end it;s all about power enabling sound...so the CPU, motherbaird and PSU are crucial, so is the output path...like with everything it all matters.
> I am now at a point where the sound is ridiculous, and having heard quite a few CD transports I dare say they cannot come close to a good music server/PC feeding a decent DAC.



I use a macmini as a music server and it definitely sounds better than any transport I’ve put up against it. Part of that is that I’m using Audirvana software imbedded with iTunes and that has been the key to better sound. It bypasses all of the functions of iTunes except for the library and turns off everything else so nothing is running in the background.


----------



## MarcelNL

this is the state of my current prototype loosely splattered across a slab of underlayment


----------



## coxhaus

I would think you would want to run a motherboard with onboard video and not use a video card. But how it sounds is what is most important.


----------



## MarcelNL

That motherboard , or rather CPU does not come with video, but Daphile (linux based OS including Logitec media Server) switches off the video card after like a minute or two, MB needs it to boot.

Daphile runs headless and I use a laptop to control it.

Running now for 48 hours straight, no hiccups and the sound improvement is something else.


----------



## MarcelNL

The parts for the PSU are slowly trickling in, with the most important bits; two huge Lundahl chokes and a Toroidy transformer likely taking a while...the active rectifier arrived, and I have some very low ESR/ESL capacitors waiting, and the Taiko ATX board at the ready.

Meanwhile I am stunned how much of an effect getting rid of the fan is, the so important upper midrange and highs opened up further. Last night I was listening to one of my famous pieces; The Nocturnes by Chopin played by Brigitte Engerer, a recording that I'm pretty familiar with. Suddenly it became clear that the longish pauses between track actually have good reason, most of it is the piano soundboard and frame ringing out....ever so subtle and soft.
Bad part is that I now need to do a cool down after listening, and set a bed time or it gets seriously late every evening.


----------



## JayGee

Built the rythmik sub - very impressed...


----------



## JayGee

Great for hifi and submarine themed movies....


----------



## gregfisk

That’s fantastic, I’m glad that worked out for you. They are really good subs and Brian is great to work with if you should ever need his help.


----------



## MarcelNL

I just ordered shorter heatpipes and a copper plate to serve as heat buffer and clasp, while still waiting for some hefty chokes and a toroid transformer to build the lineair unregulated PSU going into the Taiko ATX supply.

The whole build is still recovering from travelling to an audio gathering last week, to be travellig again next week to Berlin Audio Meet, takes like 3 weeks for whatever it is to settle down again and sound to 'sound right' again.


----------



## gregfisk

JayGee said:


> Great for hifi and submarine themed movies....



I thought you might be interested in the open baffle Rythmik servo 





subs that I have in my open baffle speakers. These are duel subs using the Rythmik A370PEQ servo amps.


----------



## JayGee

Wowsers - amazing setup!


----------



## gregfisk

Thanks, what servo amp did your sub come with? Just curious what they use for the sealed subs. It is sealed correct?


----------



## JayGee

gregfisk said:


> Thanks, what servo amp did your sub come with? Just curious what they use for the sealed subs. It is sealed correct?



I chose the PEQ370 too because I'm not using a AV receiver and can use the built in high pass filter between my pre-amp and power amp. I'm not sure if they suggest different amps for sealed or ported, but I built a sealed box to go with the DS1200 kit - seemed easier and more appropriate for my applications.


----------



## MarcelNL

they should, at least in respect to the damping factor, for a sealed box you want good damping factor in an amp where for a speaker chassis designed for open baffle you don't as those have a much stiffer suspension.


----------



## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> they should, at least in respect to the damping factor, for a sealed box you want good damping factor in an amp where for a speaker chassis designed for open baffle you don't as those have a much stiffer suspension.



The PEQ370 has every adjustment you can possibly imagine and is their most versatile amp. If you look at the picture I took you can see what it is capable of. They make another amp which is basically the little brother of this one which is more limited in what it can do. The PEQ370 can run up to 3 subs at the same time depending on the sub, which makes it even more economical if you want a multi sub system. Sealed subs and OB subs both have their place depending on your application.


----------



## MarcelNL

so , the next step; added a copper plate to buffer heat bursts of the CPU and clamp the heat pipe adapter properly to the CPU.


----------



## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> so , the next step; added a copper plate to buffer heat bursts of the CPU and clamp the heat pipe adapter properly to the CPU.
> View attachment 145929



I truly hope all this work on your computer gives you better sound. I know this is a hobby and a passion for us audio guys. I’m extremely happy with my macmini and I’m just using the stock PS. I did buy a PS board for it that is supposed to be an improvement, but honestly I couldn’t be happier with the quality of sound I’m already getting, so I’ve never bothered to install it. PCs can be a lot dirtier electrically so maybe it’s worth the extra effort. Like I said though, it’s a hobby and a passion so it probably doesn’t matter.


----------



## MarcelNL

You probably would not believe how much of a difference it makes, I started with an old recomissioned laptop. Tinkered with various music players, then Operating Systems and made the step to a NUC with a linear power supply, which was a huge improvement in sound quality.
And then came the Audio server project that blew me away, soundwise, and it still does. think I cracked the 'digital sound barrier' where upper mids almost always remain congested and glary. Now there is unlimited dynamics and no compression...remaining on the list is the PSU and finally making an I2S interlink that stays functional for more than a few days...grrr (struggling with build quality in an RJ45 connector)


----------



## panda

I remember when digital coax cable rolling made more of a difference than swapping out RCAs. funny thing the best sounding one was a thin silver wire one (think it was kimber) which would normally be awful for analog.


----------



## gregfisk

I was reading an article this morning from Lukanz Fikus who is the owner of Lampizator. He was talking about a board he made that fixed the problems that all transports have on their output stage. Basically that the square wave isn’t very square and that’s the reason that different cables actually do make a difference in the sound. The board he built makes the square wave perfect and therefore makes all transports sound the same. Subsequently the cable used no longer matters. Since he builds some of the finest dacs available I’m sure he knows what he’s talking about.


----------



## MarcelNL

'all transports' sounds like bit of a bold statement although the Implementation of the digital signal carrier is certainly most important, I hear little difference in I2S cables, a little more in USB but most in analog cables. Another issue is the incoming side, if your DAC receiver is not implemented correctly the same thing happens. So far my vote is for the I2S data format, originally designed by Philips when they developed the CD player, if done right it outperforms most standard implementations of USB, llet alone SPDIF and the unspeakably muddy Toslink.

Some digital cables mangle the signal in such a way that it corrects other flaws, or it just makes the sound different for the wrong reasons. Still when you know what cable geometry does and stay within the boundaries of the chosen format it is certainly possible to make a nicer sounding cable. The law of diminishing returns does apply yet in the end digital is also affected by many of the more basic physics laws than most seem to think.


----------



## gregfisk

Of course you’re correct about “all transports” but he did say that all of the transports he tested which were a lot, had the same issues to one degree or another. I think the point he was trying to make is that he was able to even up the playing field by correcting the square wave. He also said that Sony and I believe Marantz had the best stock square wave. One other point he made was to keep your cables short.


----------



## dafox

MarcelNL said:


> 'all transports' sounds like bit of a bold statement although the Implementation of the digital signal carrier is certainly most important, I hear little difference in I2S cables, a little more in USB but most in analog cables. Another issue is the incoming side, if your DAC receiver is not implemented correctly the same thing happens. So far my vote is for the I2S data format, originally designed by Philips when they developed the CD player, if done right it outperforms most standard implementations of USB, llet alone SPDIF and the unspeakably muddy Toslink.
> 
> Some digital cables mangle the signal in such a way that it corrects other flaws, or it just makes the sound different for the wrong reasons. Still when you know what cable geometry does and stay within the boundaries of the chosen format it is certainly possible to make a nicer sounding cable. The law of diminishing returns does apply yet in the end digital is also affected by many of the more basic physics laws than most seem to think.


What is I2S?


----------



## Lars

dafox said:


> What is I2S?


I2S explained


----------



## dafox

Lars said:


> I2S explained


Is that what is commonly used in digital cables between a cd transport and DAC?


----------



## Lars

dafox said:


> Is that what is commonly used in digital cables between a cd transport and DAC?


It is mainly used internally as long cable runs present impedance problems. You can buffer I2S signals, but it's uncommon ime.


----------



## MarcelNL

I2S can be used for longer stretches IF implemented properly, but is often only used internally in CD players. Most data output formats (cables) sorted for sound quality capability are:
I2S
USB
SPDIF
Toslink

Where I2S is not common but gaining ground, in the end USB likely will win as it is more universal and CD transports (have) become obsolete and streaming is gaining ground (but a good USB implementation takes as much effort as using I2S properly)


----------



## MarcelNL

Klangfilm Euronor Junior (PAH) at Berlin Audio Meet.....playing with 1.5W Tube amp @ around 90db (limit where the room flooded, by far not the limit for the amp/speaker)


----------



## dafox

MarcelNL said:


> I2S can be used for longer stretches IF implemented properly, but is often only used internally in CD players. Most data output formats (cables) sorted for sound quality capability are:
> I2S
> USB
> SPDIF
> Toslink
> 
> Where I2S is not common but gaining ground, in the end USB likely will win as it is more universal and CD transports (have) become obsolete and streaming is gaining ground (but a good USB implementation takes as much effort as using I2S properly)


I just bought a cd transport


----------



## MarcelNL

Still waiting on parts for the PSU for the audio server, the transformer is in, chokes should be built......the rest is already waiting to be used.


----------



## MarcelNL

finally, progress can be made...but first, a lead and tin feast:


----------



## gregfisk

Oh, just a few wires to solder. That’s a nice looking transformer you got there.


----------



## MarcelNL

Toroidy in Poland, Chokes for version 1 by Lundahl (next version is going to be a custom job in HiB cut core by my transformer guy)

From the look of it the power supply is going to be quite a bit larger than the whole motherboard plus paraphernalia. Guess the enclosure is going to be big.


----------



## MarcelNL

so stage 1 of the prototype is done;
steady 36V to feed the ATX module....


----------



## Lars

Is that a Hypex soft start module I see? You may not be a lost cause after all..!


----------



## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> Is that a Hypex soft start module I see? You may not be a lost cause after all..!



It is indeed, but all it does is softly switching on the transformer that powers the beast


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> It is indeed, but all it does is softly switching on the transformer that powers the beast


I know! I use one in my amplifier.


----------



## MarcelNL

And there is Lift off.....no critical listening as I'm as deaf as can be in one ear (with a nice 3Khz squeek) due to a cold, but I hope my audio buddies will tell me how it sounds tonight


----------



## MarcelNL

one comment, holy sh^t, this is good!


----------



## MarcelNL

So between the 4 of us in our little audio tinker group we did some serious listening, the unanimous vote was that digital now sounded different than high end Vinyl but better in many aspects...A bit weird to have to rely on others to tell me how the server sounds, I'm still too deaf to hear anything other than hints (and those sound pretty nice), Even the neighbours must have liked the sound as they probably enjoyed our music until they asked if we could turn the volume a bit down at 02:00  (I truthfully claimed I'm deaf)

The rig consisted of the server, an Audio Note 300B amp (nice amp but not stellar) and 2 KL405 VAC in large open baffles.

Burn in is under way, and will likely take a few weeks....


----------



## gregfisk

I sent my Hafler xl280 in to Musical Concepts and got it back a couple of weeks ago now. I ran it 24/7 until yesterday and had a good listen last night. Man O man does it sound good! It’s a major upgrade that John Hillig does and it’s basically not the same amp anymore but I am very impressed with his work. The sound stage is huge and on some songs it was wrapping around the wall to straight off my shoulders. I’ve never heard my open baffle speakers coming that far into the room and to the sides of me. Normally the sound covers the entire front wall and up the side walls a couple of feet in front of the speakers but never to straight across from me. Of course not all music does this and much of it just sounds glorious covering the front wall. I’m wondering how much improvement I would get from adding a power supply to my macmini music server at this point. The sound right now is really special but on some vocals I still hear just a bit of an edge but that may very well be the recording. Nothing like my class D 1200as2 based amp though. The clarity is similar but with a lot more edge or harshness at the edges. Also the sound stage is way smaller and the instruments and vocals sound thinner some how. All and all I’m very impressed so far. All of the crystal clarity of class D but with the huge sound stage and fullness of the instruments and vocals. I think it’s going to be hard to beat and perhaps only by a really good tube amp.


----------



## MarcelNL

What did he do to the amp?

Digital music is as much a rabbit's hole as Vinyl...for sure your Macmini will fare better with a nice LPSU, the problem is that tackling the PSU is mainly 'cosmetics'. If you can find a Taiko dealer near you just ask if you can listen to the Extreme to hear how digital can sound.


----------



## gregfisk

I’m not privy to the fine details of the upgrade. I know that he uses the original mosfets which my amp has 8 per side. He also uses the original transformers which are supposed to be very good. The caps in the power supply section are upgraded to high end (fancy) types but after that I’m a little vague about the new boards. He calls it an upgrade but in many ways it’s a brand new amplifier.


----------



## MarcelNL

Sounds more like a total rebuild!


----------



## gregfisk

Pretty much that is the case. What is really impressive is the clarity that the amp brings to the table without the harshness that often accompanies that aspect of reproduction. I am truly impressed at this moment but time will tell if that changes for me with long term listening.


----------



## MarcelNL

Holy smoke, my ear is finally clearing up so serious listening can begin...

This thing is GOOD! Great dynamics without compression, no harshness, effortless flowing musicality, very good definition in all frequencies, nice colors in overtones etc.

the only drawback so far is that listening sessions tend to end very LATE.


----------



## gregfisk

That’s great news and what we all try to achieve. I’ve been doing the same thing with my newly upgraded Hafler amp. It’s hard to stop listening because I’m constantly trying out different music to hear what I hadn’t heard before. I’m very happy for you and it’s too bad we live so incredibly far away from each other. If you ever come to Seattle let me know. My audio room is a separate building from our house and has a full kitchen and bath to boot. By the way, Merry Christmas!


----------



## MarcelNL

when I'm reasonably close I'll for sure stop by, that is IF travel ever gets back to normal....

I have swapped the laser modules for the fiberoptic stretch of my network for SFP+ datacenter modules with low latency and even higher bandwidth (the previous ones already outperformed any audio data requirement by far)

Very nice improvement that translates into cleaner backgrounds and faster transients and more detail texture and 'color', next stop is to add another 8pin EPS cable to feed the CPU and tinker with bypass caps for the PSU.


----------



## gregfisk

It is going to take some time before we can travel at will. When I retired I thought that I would be traveling the world. The truth is that I haven’t gone anywhere at all and my world feels smaller than ever.

If you are able to make it here you will have a free place to stay. Before Covid I had people come from Oregon and Idaho for listening get togethers and then stay in the audio building over night. It’s a studio but has a nice pullout bed. It was a lot of fun and I can’t wait until we can start up again.

There is a company that has come out with a new fiber hdmi cable that has apparently won some awards. If I come across it again I’ll post what it is.


----------



## MarcelNL

The second 8pin EPS cable is added, and does do it's job to improve Sq a tick, I'm now auditioning bypass caps to add to the EPS 12V, stil in prototyping. First up is a Duelund tinned copper CAST.


----------



## MarcelNL

The verdict is: the Duelund is not staying, I have better caps for this purpose...and BOY do they make a difference in a place where you'd not expect them to.


----------



## MarcelNL

it appears I have my next project lined up, refurbishing a '30ies RCA70A 16" Broadcast Transcription Turntable 
Not sure yet where I will put that beast but that will not make me forego on it. Did I say I'm stoked?


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> it appears I have my next project lined up, refurbishing a '30ies RCA70A 16" Broadcast Transcription Turntable
> Not sure yet where I will put that beast but that will not make me forego on it. Did I say I'm stoked?


We are going to needs pictures…

…lots of pictures…


----------



## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> We are going to needs pictures…
> 
> …lots of pictures…


I promise to upload loads of pics when the beast arrives...it's a huge cabinet weighing a LOT so getting it home is a project in itself. First thing to do is to discuss (and negotiate) a bit about that beauty and some paraphernalia like a Gray Arm and a Fairchild 225a or similar, and a few rare records...I cannot believe it yet...
Many years ago the mono seed was planted, hearing a good TT with a good cartridge and a single speaker in an old School Gym....recently I heard mono again...and was blown away by its energy, directness and musicality, one less hurdle sound MUSIC does not have to overcome...


----------



## gregfisk

I used to have a beautiful Joule Electra preamp that had a mono button. I couldn’t believe how good some old mono recordings sound. It was also really good for testing in that you could a/b easily between channels. And yes, keep us informed on your progress.


----------



## Lars

gregfisk said:


> I used to have a beautiful Joule Electra preamp that had a mono button. I couldn’t believe how good some old mono recordings sound.


So when you hit that mono button, did that make your mono recordings mono-mono?


----------



## MarcelNL

yeah mono on two speakers is something different but it can still be lightyears ahead of stereo, yet when stereo is made into mono the final result depends a lot on HOW the transformation is done....my best mono experiences have been with true mono recordings being played back on either one or two speakers.


----------



## Lars

Mono on two speakers is just that. Mono on two speakers. When converting stereo to mono you are just summing l+r. Woodoo and room modes aside it should fine


----------



## MarcelNL

Not sure, IME there is more to it than just summing up L+R when converting stereo to mono...I have heard several different methods of converting stereo into mono side by side with a true mono recording and the result was (more or less depending on what method) markedly different than a true mono recording being played back.

There is a phase shift on which stereo relies that you cannot make go away when adding up signals.

Anyway,
A second tone arm and cartridge for the odd stereo record will be added.


----------



## gregfisk

Lars said:


> So when you hit that mono button, did that make your mono recordings mono-mono?



Well, I think you missed my point but sure, why not.


----------



## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> Not sure, IME there is more to it than just summing up L+R when converting stereo to mono...I have heard several different methods of converting stereo into mono side by side with a true mono recording and the result was (more or less depending on what method) markedly different than a true mono recording being played back.
> 
> There is a phase shift on which stereo relies that you cannot make go away when adding up signals.
> 
> Anyway,
> A second tone arm and cartridge for the odd stereo record will be added.


My Joule also had a phase button so the mono recordings would also be in phase phase at the same time


----------



## Lars

My preamp has a 'Dim' feature, but it doesn't seem to work on audiophiles


----------



## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> My preamp has a 'Dim' feature, but it doesn't seem to work on audiophiles


was it intended for audiophiles to begin with?


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> was it intended for audiophiles to begin with?


Yes!


..I made it myself..


----------



## MarcelNL

fancy, I have been using black masking tape on various LEDs to 'audiophile' them after finding out adding a kill-switch was not worth the effort.


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> was it intended for audiophiles to begin with?


Wait, were you talking about the preamp or the 'Dim'-feature?

The 'Dim'-function was clearly designed to attenuate audiophiles, but the whole thing is designed to work in a pro setting..


----------



## MarcelNL

I'll admit that the thought crossed my mind that the pre amp had a toggle for dim-witted listeners, of which there are plenty to go around both in a pro (how ever pro is defined) and audiophile environment


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> I'll admit that the thought crossed my mind that the pre amp had a toggle for dim-witted listeners, of which there are plenty to go around both in a pro (how ever pro is defined) and audiophile environment


Since this is the DIY thread I will share a picture. Made by yours truly. Even did the engraving by hand..


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> I promise to upload loads of pics when the beast arrives...it's a huge cabinet weighing a LOT so getting it home is a project in itself. First thing to do is to discuss (and negotiate) a bit about that beauty and some paraphernalia like a Gray Arm and a Fairchild 225a or similar, and a few rare records...I cannot believe it yet...
> Many years ago the mono seed was planted, hearing a good TT with a good cartridge and a single speaker in an old School Gym....recently I heard mono again...and was blown away by its energy, directness and musicality, one less hurdle sound MUSIC does not have to overcome...


OH boy I gotta follow this thread!


----------



## ACHiPo

ACHiPo said:


> OH boy I gotta follow this thread!


Here's my DIY Lenco-based turntable with a mono cartridge on a highish mass Pioneer PA 70 tonearm and a Soundsmith stereo cartridge on an air bearing linear tone arm. My phono stage has 2 MC inputs and 1 MM input (and a mono switch). The mono side only gets used about 20% of the time, but it sounds great. 





I've only seen pictures of the RCA transcription 'table. The owner of Oswalds Mills Audio has one and it was the inspiration for his SOTA direct drive turntable.


----------



## MarcelNL

Nice Lenco project!

A Lenco project was my initial start, as finding a 16" TT is not that easy....so I found a Lenco L75 and cleaned it, relubed the motor and got it running really smoothly (one of the previous owners never undid the transport screws) and I was ready to kick the project to upgrade it with all the bells and whistles off once the Audio Server project is done...and now this beast suddenly comes along.


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> Nice Lenco project!
> 
> A Lenco project was my initial start, as finding a 16" TT is not that easy....so I found a Lenco L75 and cleaned it, relubed the motor and got it running really smoothly (one of the previous owners never undid the transport screws) and I was ready to kick the project to upgrade it with all the bells and whistles off once the Audio Server project is done...and now this beast suddenly comes along.


I just completed round two of upgrades on my Lenco. Round one was a new idler wheel, vibration damping of the pan, new sapphire bearing and PEEK bearing plate. Round two further upgraded the bearing to a longer/more precise housing and copper mat.


----------



## MarcelNL

ACHiPo said:


> I just completed round two of upgrades on my Lenco. Round one was a new idler wheel, vibration damping of the pan, new sapphire bearing and PEEK bearing plate. Round two further upgraded the bearing to a longer/more precise housing and copper mat.



That were pretty much the upgrades I was planning , and a graphite top mat. Now I'll see what gives, I may need to revamp it for stereo as the design of the RCA is not great for stereo IMO.

I'll focus on the vintage beast and vintage mono first, then perhaps a more modern mono element at some point (had a great time meeting and listening to some stellar records with Hyun Lee of Tedeska last year) ... if feasible at perhaps adding an arm for stereo but that is the lowest priority.


----------



## MarcelNL

Meanwhile, I revamped a Lenco L75 to get my feet wet with turntable fuzz...

Stock arm 'refurbished', bottom plate removed, motor serviced, main bearing serviced, V blocks replaced, element cleaned phono wires replaced and replaced the crappy DIN connector, adjusted the needle pressure, bobbledeboop and whatnot parameters of the arm, fine tuned RPM, man what a lot of parameters to mechanically adjust.
Note the high-end wooden finger lift !

Verdict: it sounds nice...but that is about it...I know it's not a fair comparison, basically a high end server to a mid fi turntable. Mono does better so I guess the (likely stock) pickering P/AT1 is not so great.
Currently on the mat; Then Bergh playing some Beethoven


----------



## gregfisk

Congrats on getting your turntable running properly. It’s really hard to get a turntable to the level of a good music server. Your summation of the process sounds like what I would expect. Putting the time and money into a great turntable can be very rewarding and can sound incredible but it’s definitely a work of passion. I’ve decided I’m just too lazy to put the time into getting my turntables to that level and then having to get up to change the music afterwards.


----------



## MarcelNL

I am not even close to what I'd dare call a good setup ;-) and with this cartridge much more may be impossible...getting close to my server in its current state, definitely not... (we compared it in an earlier state and consensus -in a heavily Vinyl biased group- was that it outperformed a pretty fancy turntable/arm/cartridge combo that is far beyond the L75)

All is just to get me familiar with everything for the 16" beast, that will be dedicated to Mono... what strikes me is that the sound is now fairly open, dynamics are passable but still everything is quite muddy especially when compared to digital.

Not sure yet if I'll add an arm for stereo on the RCA or just keep the L75 for the rest of the family to mess about...that may be safer, and it's just another step on a source selector switch.

It's fun tinkering though, now off for some Rigoletto by Callas


----------



## MarcelNL

Tomorrow we'll be test flying a new concept for a passive RIAA circuit using only 2 tubes and minimal components. Every component counts so we're aiming for the jugular by using our fave stuff to gove it a fair run for its money.


----------



## MarcelNL

We did not make enough progress to listen to the prototype, but it works. There is too much hum to listen to sound, the hum cancelling resistors did not arrive in time.

Exotica galore, western electric resistors, paper in oil caps courtesy of bell labs etc...


----------



## MarcelNL

While still waiting for some key components for that phono stage I'm currently trying out some new handmade bypass caps made with precious metals...totally ridiculous what it does with sound, given that the bypass is used on the 12V rail to the CPU in my server. 
We hope to continue the phono project next weekend, lead times are a bummer....


----------



## gaijin

Marcel, have you posted a schematic for that one?


----------



## MarcelNL

gaijin said:


> Marcel, have you posted a schematic for that one?


Nope, we're still working on it, plus it will likely premiere at ETF first once it's ready (in case you refer to the phono stage) We will need to figure out quite a few equalisation curves, RIAA was only implemented universally well after the 60-ies. I already have more Vinyl using a DIN curve than RIAA.


----------



## MarcelNL

The design is such that we will utilise things that usually are a negative aspect of components used (like parasitic capacitance) as a feature, ending up using minimal components, so there is only so much we can calculate in advance and most will need to be tweaked to customize for the actual components used.


----------



## MarcelNL

After a bit of a pause as I'm playing with bypass caps on the CPU today I installed an ultra low noise dual linear PSU for the internet router and my audio network switch, long on the to do list and finally got around to cross that off.

Wall warts are what they are named after, warts....

I am waiting for the delivery of the correct power plug for the internet router but the linear PSU gives a nice improvement in SQ with just the switch being taken care of.

Shortly I'll be visiting High End 2022 in Munich to hear some reference gear.


----------



## ACHiPo

I was in Holland a couple weeks ago and visited Taiko Audio. Holy cow it’s amazing the sound you can make with $500k of gear in a well-designed room! Their Extreme server is now on my want list.


----------



## MarcelNL

The Taiko Extreme is one of the pieces of kit that IMO is designed how I think it should be done!


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> The Taiko Extreme is one of the pieces of kit that IMO is designed how I think it should be done!


It certainly sounds like it! It's the first time I could imagine being totally satisfied with a digital-only rig. Except for the music that's not on digital, that is.


----------



## MarcelNL

ACHiPo said:


> It certainly sounds like it! It's the first time I could imagine being totally satisfied with a digital-only rig. Except for the music that's not on digital, that is.


I know what you mean, certain material is not available or only in poor quality (much rare stuff is digitized by the French national library but their catalogue seems to have suffered dearly over time), it's the main reason I'll add the RCA TT as especially mono recordings seem to be of too little interest for the Qobuz' of this world. (totally understandable)


----------



## gregfisk

ACHiPo said:


> It certainly sounds like it! It's the first time I could imagine being totally satisfied with a digital-only rig. Except for the music that's not on digital, that is.


Are you the same ACHiPo that has been on Audiocircle for many years? Just curious since I recognize the name.


----------



## ACHiPo

gregfisk said:


> Are you the same ACHiPo that has been on Audiocircle for many years? Just curious since I recognize the name.


That’s me!


----------



## gregfisk

ACHiPo said:


> That’s me!



I spent years there until JohnR decided to restrict me for standing up for HIS site. This was when Mike from Miverna was causing havoc and just about the same time JohnR kicked him off. Do you still spend time there? I do miss that place but I just can’t stand JohnR.


----------



## ACHiPo

Greg,
I don‘t remember that drama, but I try to avoid drama (online at least.) These days I find What’s Best Forum most interesting, although I visit Audio Circle, Audio Karma, and Audio Aficianado pretty much daily. Audio Circle has largely devolved to a Danny Richey love fest. Audio Karma caters to the vintage hifi crowd, and AA is a bit of an ego trip for the dealer/founder. Oh, and Audio Shark can be good, but not a lot of traffic. I check in with the kiwis on Dark Lantern, but not a lot of content these days.
Evan


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> After a bit of a pause as I'm playing with bypass caps on the CPU today I installed an ultra low noise dual linear PSU for the internet router and my audio network switch, long on the to do list and finally got around to cross that off.
> 
> Wall warts are what they are named after, warts....
> 
> I am waiting for the delivery of the correct power plug for the internet router but the linear PSU gives a nice improvement in SQ with just the switch being taken care of.
> 
> Shortly I'll be visiting High End 2022 in Munich to hear some reference gear.


Looking forward to your show report!


----------



## MarcelNL

ACHiPo said:


> Looking forward to your show report!



I stopped doing conference reports many years ago but I'll try make some notes even if to keep things organized.
Will try to do some video with the DSLR, note to self; find out how hat works....


----------



## MarcelNL

now added the linear PSU for the ISP router, another nice gain.


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> I stopped doing conference reports many years ago but I'll try make some notes even if to keep things organized.
> Will try to do some video with the DSLR, note to self; find out how hat works....


Pics and notes would be greatly appreciated. There are some fantastic components at the Munich show based on what I've seen. I've never made it to a show. Probably one reason I was so blown away with Emile's demo system at Taiko.


----------



## MarcelNL

ACHiPo said:


> Pics and notes would be greatly appreciated. There are some fantastic components at the Munich show based on what I've seen. I've never made it to a show. Probably one reason I was so blown away with Emile's demo system at Taiko.



Will do my best but my 'I wanna hear' may get the better of me ;-)

The Taiko system is probably best auditioned where you did that, at a show the gear has not settled in (it somehow takes my server about 2 weeks to recover after travel). Aside of that, I do think it is in a league of its own!
I plan to have a chat with Emile as we may have a component he can put to good use (visiting the trade days).


----------



## gregfisk

ACHiPo said:


> Greg,
> I don‘t remember that drama, but I try to avoid drama (online at least.) These days I find What’s Best Forum most interesting, although I visit Audio Circle, Audio Karma, and Audio Aficianado pretty much daily. Audio Circle has largely devolved to a Danny Richey love fest. Audio Karma caters to the vintage hifi crowd, and AA is a bit of an ego trip for the dealer/founder. Oh, and Audio Shark can be good, but not a lot of traffic. I check in with the kiwis on Dark Lantern, but not a lot of content these days.
> Evan



Thanks for the information on other sites to check out. I still have a couple of friends that spend time on AC but I just can’t bring myself to hang out there anymore. I actually have Danny’s Super Vs although I had them built to look like the Super 7s. I always thought the Vs looked like penguins. Danny’s on YouTube now so apparently that took off for him. He definitely hasn’t changed with some of his “interesting”ideas but he does make good speakers.


----------



## dafox

ACHiPo said:


> Greg,
> I don‘t remember that drama, but I try to avoid drama (online at least.) These days I find What’s Best Forum most interesting, although I visit Audio Circle, Audio Karma, and Audio Aficianado pretty much daily. Audio Circle has largely devolved to a Danny Richey love fest. Audio Karma caters to the vintage hifi crowd, and AA is a bit of an ego trip for the dealer/founder. Oh, and Audio Shark can be good, but not a lot of traffic. I check in with the kiwis on Dark Lantern, but not a lot of content these days.
> Evan


What do you think of Audiogon?


----------



## gregfisk

dafox said:


> What do you think of Audiogon?



I know you’re not asking me but I spent many years there before getting involved in Audiocircle. I do still like it but it’s very commercial now after it was purchased several years ago by a corporate entity. It’s still okay for getting opinions about gear and some of the old timers are still around. I used to really enjoy it way back when it wasn’t so inundated with commercial interests.


----------



## dafox

gregfisk said:


> I know you’re not asking me but I spent many years there before getting involved in Audiocircle. I do still like it but it’s very commercial now after it was purchased several years ago by a corporate entity. It’s still okay for getting opinions about gear and some of the old timers are still around. I used to really enjoy it way back when it wasn’t so inundated with commercial interests.


Thanks, I'll give audiocircle a try.


----------



## ACHiPo

dafox said:


> What do you think of Audiogon?


It’s changed a lot. I check the forum daily, but don’t spend much time there. Not sure why, but I prefer USAudioMart for used gear shopping.


----------



## gregfisk

ACHiPo said:


> It’s changed a lot. I check the forum daily, but don’t spend much time there. Not sure why, but I prefer USAudioMart for used gear shopping.



I completely agree with this. Audio mart is the best place to buy used gear. IMO it’s also a great place to sell gear. And they don’t charge you to do it.


----------



## gregfisk

I also think in general the prices people ask for gear when selling is more realistic. It seems like some people selling on Agon ask way over market value for gear. Even though you can pay a fee and see what market value is on the same site.


----------



## MarcelNL

I use Hifishark to stay up to speed with prices (history, skip Japanese prices they are ridiculous) keep in mind you see the ASK and it shows where an item pops up rather than tracking a gazillion of places.


----------



## MarcelNL

I just installed the ultra OCXO in the Pink Faun I2S bridge, breaking in as we speak...only a few hundred hours to go before it's phase noise settles down to rididulously low (<-130db @ 10Hz)...sounds good already!


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> phase noise <-130db @ 10Hz


How are you measuring this?


----------



## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> How are you measuring this?


I don't


----------



## MarcelNL

Pink Faun 2.16







audiophilestyle.com


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> I don't


In true audiophile fashion..!


----------



## gaijin

Lars said:


> In true audiophile fashion..!



Who really needs anything other than Tune Dem?


----------



## Lars

gaijin said:


> Who really needs anything other than Tune Dem?


Smart people?


----------



## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> In true audiophile fashion..!


I do not know many folks who have the kit to measure at this level, but the manufacturer has it and their gear is pretty well regarded. Do you measure the grit size of a new stone you just bought?


----------



## M1k3

MarcelNL said:


> I do not know many folks who have the kit to measure at this level, but the manufacturer has it and their gear is pretty well regarded. Do you measure the grit size of a new stone you just bought?


Only after modifications.


----------



## MarcelNL

I tried to measure the composition of the steel in my last knife, but my XRF broke down....


----------



## gregfisk

For the most part measurements are meaningless once you’re at a certain level. Most new equipment measures way better than we as humans can possibly hear.


----------



## MarcelNL

What I'm hearing now is that -20dB less phase noise is easily detectable by hearing..wow


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> Pink Faun 2.16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> audiophilestyle.com


Having been blown away by the Taiko Audio Extreme server, I'm now a believer that bits ain't just bits--timing matters alot. I just checked out the Pink Faun. It is also built in The Netherlands, and the price is similar to the Taiko. I'm curious about the sonic comparison as well as long term viability of both companies. That's a lot of money to throw down on a smallish company that hopefully will be around for many years to come.


----------



## MarcelNL

I just returned from High End Munich, and have listened to many a system amongst which some costing up to pretty much one million Euros (give or take some change)....the good news for my wallet is that there was nothing I really want.

Best sound of the show for me is a new Spanish brand presenting a Western Electric 12a horn based system by Admire Audio, with as second best sound Wolf von Langa's new Field coil (with an air motion tweeter and a passive radiator enclosure). Both systems started to really sing after being joined with the latest Tedeska cartridge and some stunning Vinyl (latest versions of the Tedeska cartridge, in copper and silver).
Runner up was the interestingly shaped horn (twisted cube shape) but the fact I do not remember the name means something.

I auditioned the Taiko, the PF 2.16ultra, an Innuos and some other digital bits and pieces....it's impossible to compare the front ends in a meaningful way since they were coupled to completely different setups (amps and speakers) in various rooms. If you are in doubt you'd need to visit a dealer carrying both or (even better) arrange a home demo using your own speakers (but give the gear at elast two weeks before passing judgement).

My conclusion about the Taiko was that I did not like the speakers but the capability is there, same with the Pink Faun.... These two servers are miles ahead in front of everything else digital currently out there, yet what I haven't heard in either was 'coloratura', something I blame on speakers used (if you want to know which just send me a PM).

Taiko showed new gear, a new version of their ATX module which I suspect will be used in the Extreme or a successor and were using XDMS....they showed a new passive cooler for the Xeon CPU, and two boards that I took for the router and perhaps a network card...to be revealed...

My take is that Taiko is ahead of the game developing great sounding stuff using a holistic approach from music player software, network gear and a server etc. Based on their sales numbers they should be around for the next decade and customer support is stellar. Pink Faun is a solid company too, yet I do not anticipate they are capable of the breadth of products Taiko is. 

Another option is DIY. If you are able to DIY to some extent building a server that can keep up with these two is definitely possible and you'll save some $$, my conclusion after some listenting was that I do not have to sit and weep in the corner for my living room...BUT, total investment is also high, but at the same time less than a ready product. (PM if you want details)


----------



## MarcelNL

Brief impression of the Admire system


----------



## MarcelNL

The Extreme will indeed have some new options;
…_Our 400W linear power supply is a new inhouse development, especially created for the Extreme and its special needs. It is comprised of only the very best capacitors from Mundorf and Duelund, combined in a way we found to be most neutral to the sound. The chokes are supplied from Lundahl and were selected also by ear.

and a ...battery option...._

So my vote would be to wait a bit and audition the new stuff they bring out in some months.

Also; I heard the Extreme running TAS not XDMS, which should sound better.

My vote definitely goes to Taiko given that they have like 16 ongoing projects and the fact we agree on using Lundahl chokes ;-)


----------



## ACHiPo

Marcel,
Thanks! Taiko was in the Cessaro room (weird cube horns), so you liked it in one of the rooms. I’m surprised you didn’t like the Alsyvox speakers (or was it Magico?) in the other room.
Evan


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> The Extreme will indeed have some new options;
> …_Our 400W linear power supply is a new inhouse development, especially created for the Extreme and its special needs. It is comprised of only the very best capacitors from Mundorf and Duelund, combined in a way we found to be most neutral to the sound. The chokes are supplied from Lundahl and were selected also by ear.
> 
> and a ...battery option...._
> 
> So my vote would be to wait a bit and audition the new stuff they bring out in some months.
> 
> Also; I heard the Extreme running TAS not XDMS, which should sound better.
> 
> My vote definitely goes to Taiko given that they have like 16 ongoing projects and the fact we agree on using Lundahl chokes ;-)


I’ve also seen Emil mention several times significant price increases coming for the Extreme with a 2-chassis system coming soon at a lower relative price.

PM sent


----------



## MarcelNL

I did not like the sound of the Alsyvox, their sound is impressive at first glance and sure it is big, open and fast but it has little punch to go with that speed and it lacks low end definition, I also found it had a slight lisp (which may be due to the crazy toe in that is needed for these rooms). Thanks for putting a name to the Cube shaped horn on LSD ;-)

What I gather is it the increase in raw materials etc that drives price up, Taiko does most work in house having their own CNC router machinery so they must be buying some massive amounts of solid Aluminium and that IS expensive.

I plan on driving up to Oldenzaal at some point, to have a proper listen and let Emile hear some stuff I think they can put to good use replacing the Duelunds.


----------



## MarcelNL

ACHiPo said:


> Marcel,
> Thanks! Taiko was in the Cessaro room (weird cube horns), so you liked it in one of the rooms. I’m surprised you didn’t like the Alsyvox speakers (or was it Magico?) in the other room.
> Evan



It was the Aries Cerat Aurora (thanks to someone at WBF)


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> It was the Aries Cerat Aurora (thanks to someone at WBF)


I stand corrected. Thanks. I still believe it had the Taiko Extreme front end?


----------



## Lars

Just looked up the Taiko Extreme and imo @MarcelNL's cpu heatsink makes the Taiko look like a toy..!


----------



## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> Just looked up the Taiko Extreme and imo @MarcelNL's cpu heatsink makes the Taiko look like a toy..!


It does, yet theirs uses a custom heatsink that may well perform more efficiently..like comparing a V8 to a dual turbo V6 engine...the heatsink on mine is rated at 300W, and I need all of it (CPU speed set at full blast) to keep CPU temps in the green zone especially on hot days like today (in the new house room temp should remain almost dead stable at 21C or so)


----------



## MarcelNL

ACHiPo said:


> I stand corrected. Thanks. I still believe it had the Taiko Extreme front end?


Not sure, there were a few Taiko's in use...


----------



## MarcelNL

Being inspired by how far one can get with DIY and having heard some differently flavored systems I started the last leg of experimenting with the speaker, and am coating the paper I'm using for the prototype to get a feel for the effect of the material of the horn. Choices....
Initial results show that stiffness is better for impulse and detail, yet we know from plenty horn and other speaker system designs that there is every chance to introduce coloration of sound by vibration.


----------



## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> Being inspired by how far one can get with DIY and having heard some differently flavored systems I started the last leg of experimenting with the speaker, and am coating the paper I'm using for the prototype to get a feel for the effect of the material of the horn. Choices....
> Initial results show that stiffness is better for impulse and detail, yet we know from plenty horn and other speaker system designs that there is every chance to introduce coloration of sound by vibration.


I have always found that paper cones give the most realistic sound reproduction, even in the lowest of frequencies.


----------



## MarcelNL

After hearing a breadth of the latest, and according to their list price finest, speakers with cones made out of unobtanium (for want of an explanation of their list price) I agree....and we're in good company, we chatted with someone from Kurt Muller gmbh, THE company for speaker cones going back to the beginning of loudspeakers...and they agree to that. (most major loudspeaker chassis manufacturers consult them on cones)

I should have explained that I'm coating the paper I used making the horn prototype ;-) turns out that I can tune the sound nicely playing with coating that paper.


----------



## MarcelNL

I just swapped the JBL 2402 for an -almost unobtanium- vintage JBL075 with original diaphragm and I never thought the difference would be so large.


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> I just swapped the JBL 2402 for an -almost unobtanium- vintage JBL075 with original diaphragm and I never thought the difference would be so large.


We need more pictures of your endeavers, please..


----------



## MarcelNL

ok, problem is that there is very little to see for this one ;-)

upper one 2402 alnico with mounting bracket
lower one 075 alnico without mounting bracket

the paper coating is transparent.


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> ok, problem is that there is very little to see for this one ;-)
> 
> upper one 2402 alnico with mounting bracket
> lower one 075 alnico without mounting bracket
> 
> the paper coating is transparent.
> 
> View attachment 181110


Purfect, thanks..!


----------



## MarcelNL

Also found the probable cause for the large difference in SPL between the two tweeters...
Which is a shame as original diaphragms are rare...(I was lucky to find two NOS in original packaging for little $) Guess I have to dig up 2204 no#2 and repeat the comparison. What I'm currently hearing through the 075 is great!


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> I just returned from High End Munich, and have listened to many a system amongst which some costing up to pretty much one million Euros (give or take some change)....the good news for my wallet is that there was nothing I really want.
> 
> Best sound of the show for me is a new Spanish brand presenting a Western Electric 12a horn based system by Admire Audio, with as second best sound Wolf von Langa's new Field coil (with an air motion tweeter and a passive radiator enclosure). Both systems started to really sing after being joined with the latest Tedeska cartridge and some stunning Vinyl (latest versions of the Tedeska cartridge, in copper and silver).
> Runner up was the interestingly shaped horn (twisted cube shape) but the fact I do not remember the name means something.
> 
> I auditioned the Taiko, the PF 2.16ultra, an Innuos and some other digital bits and pieces....it's impossible to compare the front ends in a meaningful way since they were coupled to completely different setups (amps and speakers) in various rooms. If you are in doubt you'd need to visit a dealer carrying both or (even better) arrange a home demo using your own speakers (but give the gear at elast two weeks before passing judgement).
> 
> My conclusion about the Taiko was that I did not like the speakers but the capability is there, same with the Pink Faun.... These two servers are miles ahead in front of everything else digital currently out there, yet what I haven't heard in either was 'coloratura', something I blame on speakers used (if you want to know which just send me a PM).
> 
> Taiko showed new gear, a new version of their ATX module which I suspect will be used in the Extreme or a successor and were using XDMS....they showed a new passive cooler for the Xeon CPU, and two boards that I took for the router and perhaps a network card...to be revealed...
> 
> My take is that Taiko is ahead of the game developing great sounding stuff using a holistic approach from music player software, network gear and a server etc. Based on their sales numbers they should be around for the next decade and customer support is stellar. Pink Faun is a solid company too, yet I do not anticipate they are capable of the breadth of products Taiko is.
> 
> Another option is DIY. If you are able to DIY to some extent building a server that can keep up with these two is definitely possible and you'll save some $$, my conclusion after some listenting was that I do not have to sit and weep in the corner for my living room...BUT, total investment is also high, but at the same time less than a ready product. (PM if you want details)


Just came across these clips of the Admire Audio speakers. Hard to tell much on a tablet playing cell phone video, but they sound good.


----------



## gregfisk

ACHiPo said:


> Just came across these clips of the Admire Audio speakers. Hard to tell much on a tablet playing cell phone video, but they sound good.



 WOW!!! That sounds amazing playing from the internet wirelessly to my iPhone and then wirelessly connecting to my hearing aids . Obviously I’m kidding around a bit, but really, if you think about it, the sound quality absolutely blows away the AM radio that I had as a kid in the 60’s, playing through the air from the local Seattle rock and roll radio station 15 miles away.


----------



## ACHiPo

gregfisk said:


> WOW!!! That sounds amazing playing from the internet wirelessly to my iPhone and then wirelessly connecting to my hearing aids . Obviously I’m kidding around a bit, but really, if you think about it, the sound quality absolutely blows away the AM radio that I had as a kid in the 60’s, playing through the air from the local Seattle rock and roll radio station 15 miles away.


Well, obviously that megabuck audiophile Ethernet switch is why!

it is pretty amazing the quality of microphones and even speakers on mobile devices.


----------



## MarcelNL

the funny thing is that YT video works really well in letting you hear a sound systems character, even when it's a lowly 130 or so audio stream. If you want to bring out flaws in your system record a tune or two, post on YT and play the YT video on your system and record that again, replay and judge....very remarkable feature.

Nice to see they indeed brought the reel to reel with 'master' (there can only be one) tapes to the room, we listened to these tapes in their booth and while we were in the Admire room one of the girls from the Hungarian label selling those tapes was listening and was impressed. My friend suggested to pair up and they discussed doing so later on the show. We continued listening to a new Tedeska cartridge that Huyn brought in, in that room vinyl sounded lots better than the digital setup (innuos) especially with these lates two Tedeska cartridges.

this is with the copper cartridge ( we liked it over silver)


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> After hearing a breadth of the latest, and according to their list price finest, speakers with cones made out of unobtanium (for want of an explanation of their list price) I agree....and we're in good company, we chatted with someone from Kurt Muller gmbh, THE company for speaker cones going back to the beginning of loudspeakers...and they agree to that. (most major loudspeaker chassis manufacturers consult them on cones)
> 
> I should have explained that I'm coating the paper I used making the horn prototype ;-) turns out that I can tune the sound nicely playing with coating that paper.


Just Googled Kurt Muller gmbh. Thought they made toilet paper AND speaker cones! 


Großhandel für Hygienebedarf - Kurt Müller GmbH


Then realized Dr Kurt Muller GmbH has indeed made speaker cones since 1934. Who knew (well, besides Marcel and a bunch of speaker fabricators since 1934)?


----------



## gregfisk

Well, if you can make toilet paper of course you can make speaker cones.


----------



## MarcelNL

I was thinking the other way around, perhaps they can make audiophile worthy toiletpaper too


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> I was thinking the other way around, perhaps they can make audiophile worthy toiletpaper too


That's easy - just call it old stock and overcharge


----------



## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> I was thinking the other way around, perhaps they can make audiophile worthy toiletpaper too


No real audiophile would be without it!


----------



## MarcelNL

I put an order in, just to be sure not to miss out!


----------



## MarcelNL

Just noticed that the next level Ethernet card is on it's final leg of its trip to me, Ultra Low Latency rocks for audio, not just for short term trading 
It will replace the previous model that was slower and had a bit more latency, curious what its effect will be on streaming...

Before use i'll have to sort passive cooling for this card, this gear is designed to be used in AC controlled server rooms with fans blazing...not at room temperature


----------



## gregfisk

Lars said:


> That's easy - just call it old stock and overcharge


As long as it’s NOS.


----------



## Lars

Not sure if this counts, but my old faithful telecaster have been in need of a refret for a long while.. I pulled the frets and will replace them with Dunlop 6105's. I'm going to make a bone nut too. It's my first DIY refret, so I hope it will turn out ok.


----------



## MarcelNL

I just swapped the previous fibreoptical network card for a newer one with even lower latency....a bit of a faff and I need to adress a heat issue (these things are made for icy server rooms with forced air cooling...but with an external fan (for now) temperature is stable after replacing the thermal paste.

Well worth the upgrade!

Picture shows card without the heatsink


----------



## gregfisk

Lars said:


> Not sure if this counts, but my old faithful telecaster have been in need of a refret for a long while.. I pulled the frets and will replace them with Dunlop 6105's. I'm going to make a bone nut too. It's my first DIY refret, so I hope it will turn out ok.
> View attachment 182117


So Lars, how are the frets attached? Pressure fit or some type of adhesive?


----------



## Lars

gregfisk said:


> So Lars, how are the frets attached? Pressure fit or some type of adhesive?


They just arrived today as well as the nut blank, so I haven't put them in yet.
I figure I will tap them in with a nylon hammer. Would like some glue in the slots too, but am not big on super glue. Regular wood glue would be my number one choice, but I will need to figure out a way to clamp them down overnight as it dries, so they don't pop out.


----------



## MarcelNL

Do you plan on honing/polishing the frets? Suppose a stone for a knife will work beautifully, last time we bought a guitar the shop owner did that for us, I never knew it was an option until then.


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> Do you plan on honing/polishing the frets? Suppose a stone for a knife will work beautifully, last time we bought a guitar the shop owner did that for us, I never knew it was an option until then.


Yep, that's the plan. You first level the frets so they are the same height. After that you “crown” them by filing each side of the frets so the apex of each fret is centered and the guitar will play in tune all over the fretboard. Then you can go to town and polish the frets as much as you like and it does feel really nice on the fingers if you make an effort.


----------



## MarcelNL

meanhwile, I managed to try enough times to find the right syntax in Linux command line to put the NIC adapter in ultra low latency mode...perseverance pays off!


----------



## WildBoar

I would NOT want insecure filters on my network card. They have a tendency to drag down everyone around them with their constant neediness and lack of confidence.


----------



## MarcelNL

MAN I had to look, and look again, and again....to find that line LOL


----------



## Lars

WildBoar said:


> They have a tendency to drag down everyone around them with their constant neediness and lack of confidence.


So Insecure Filters is the Linux term for Audiophile?


----------



## gregfisk

Lars said:


> So Insecure Filters is the Linux term for Audiophile?


Such nonsense


----------



## M1k3

gregfisk said:


> Such nonsense


Audiophile?


----------



## gregfisk

M1k3 said:


> Audiophile?


No, Lars likes to give audiophiles a hard time. Even though I made an effort to show interest in his fret endeavor which has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Lars uses a class D amplifier that sounds like an out of tune violin when listening to music. But that’s okay because everyone should be able to listen to music anyway they like.


----------



## jjlotti

Audiophile:" I have a 900 dollar kitchen knife".... 
High end retailer:" come on in I have some wire to show you"


----------



## gregfisk

jjlotti said:


> Audiophile:" I have a 900 dollar kitchen knife"....
> High end retailer:" come on in I have some wire to show you"


Wire is one thing I don’t buy into myself and I make my own knives. But thanks anyway.


----------



## Lars

gregfisk said:


> No, Lars likes to give audiophiles a hard time. Even though I made an effort to show interest in his fret endeavor which has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Lars uses a class D amplifier that sounds like an out of tune violin when listening to music. But that’s okay because everyone should be able to listen to music anyway they like.


Nice #shitpost, Greg. Very classy


----------



## gregfisk

Lars said:


> Nice #shitpost, Greg. Very classy


I know and agree Lars but your audiophile insults get old so I was showing you how it feels.


----------



## WildBoar

eh, the class D amp I picked up for my wife's system easily stands up to my Bryston 4BST. It was nice to realize I did not need to be looking at 5 digits to get great amplification. The Bryston will probably be sold next year and replaced with another class D amp, and the extra $$$ will go towards new speakers.


----------



## MarcelNL

let's save the discussion about class D for a separate thread for those who want, my take on class D is that is is not without reason that it was named class D and not class A... some class D amps sound decent, until you hear a decent amp...and then you know and it cannot be unheard. No you do not have to go to $$$ amps for that, a vintage Bocama that can be found for 200$ or so for example will easily outperform a fancy class D costing three times more.
I too find the hybrid insults-jokes a bit tiring at times and surely out of place, we're in a forum about pretty expensive knives that do not cut that much better than the good old Sabatiers or whatever it is most kitchens have.

Talk about that wire, show me....we made our own at some point....


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> let's save the discussion about class D for a separate thread for those who want


ok


MarcelNL said:


> my take on class D


Wait, what?


----------



## jjlotti

gregfisk said:


> Wire is one thing I don’t buy into myself and I make my own knives. But thanks anyway.


----------



## jjlotti

Navigating this blog doesn't seem to be my strongsuit... Not sure how that happened above?


----------



## gregfisk

Wait just a minute. That’s NOT ME who wrote that. How did you attach that to my name? Seriously, that’s definitely nothing I’ve ever said.


----------



## gregfisk

jjlotti said:


> Navigating this blog doesn't seem to be my strongsuit... Not sure how that happened above?


Okay, fair enough. I didn’t see your post until after I wrote my comment above. I’m definitely not a wire guy but I do know what I hear and to this day I have not heard a class D amp that sounds right in the upper frequencies. What I have said is that they are extremely detailed, and that is a plus that they have. I own a very well made amplifier that uses the 1200as2 modules. It has fancy wire inside, fancy rca and speaker connectors but it just wears my ears out after a short listening session and I just can’t connect to the music while listening to it. We all hear differently so maybe some people don’t notice what I do but I do know I’m not the only one, since many people say the same thing.


----------



## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> let's save the discussion about class D for a separate thread for those who want, my take on class D is that is is not without reason that it was named class D and not class A... some class D amps sound decent, until you hear a decent amp...and then you know and it cannot be unheard. No you do not have to go to $$$ amps for that, a vintage Bocama that can be found for 200$ or so for example will easily outperform a fancy class D costing three times more.
> I too find the hybrid insults-jokes a bit tiring at times and surely out of place, we're in a forum about pretty expensive knives that do not cut that much better than the good old Sabatiers or whatever it is most kitchens have.
> 
> Talk about that wire, show me....we made our own at some point....


I totally agree and I’m sorry for my part in the discussion. I did have to respond though since I was quoted as saying something I definitely didn’t say. I’m not even sure how that’s possible but I would appreciate it if the quote could be removed. This is the internet and I don’t want to be associated with someone else’s thoughts.


----------



## gregfisk

Please remove this post. Although my name is attached to it it’s definitely not me who wrote it.thanks


----------



## gregfisk

jjlotti said:


> Navigating this blog doesn't seem to be my strongsuit... Not sure how that happened above?


Thank you very much for removing that post.


----------



## Lars

Sorry Greg..


----------



## gregfisk

Lars said:


> Sorry Greg..
> 
> View attachment 184129


It’s all good Lars. Did I tell you that I grew up with two of my best friends who are named Sven and Lars? They are brothers and both of their parents moved here from Norway. I know this isn’t relative to this post, or this thread, kind of like your post. Anyway, your guitar looks very nice and I hope you’re happy with the results.


----------



## MarcelNL

Over the last few weeks I coated the paper I used (300g) to make the prototype horn with some PVA concoction, and I am baffled (pun intended) by how much impact that has on speed of sound and punch.

The new fiberoptic network card is broken in and will not leave it's spot on the motherboard.

The last change was the addition of yet another exotic bypass cap on the 12V CPU rail, totally weird how much impact on sound things can make on that rail...


----------



## gregfisk

Are you making a horn speaker made out of coated paper? Sorry if I’m not understanding what you’re doing. From my experience the fastest speakers are made from paper and the bigger the driver the more important the weight of the paper is. My 12” servo subs are made out of paper which is fairly light compared to other woofers I’ve seen and heard. Are you discussing the drivers themselves or the horn material that the driver attaches to?


----------



## MarcelNL

I'm using existing chassis, Tesla Aro835 full range units (paper cone material). These (3 units per channel) are put in a front loaded horn (as seen in my avatat), it's the white paper horn that I have been coating.


----------



## gregfisk

Okay, I got it now. I can see how firming up the horn material surface would change the sound.


----------



## MarcelNL

yeah , it's just the extent of the effect that makes me need to materials further...too hard and ringing and overshoot happens (which is an issue with most horns making them squeek and quack like a duck), too soft and dynamics and clarity suffers. I was planning on using crushed real wood veneer on a backing but now I'm not so sure and need to experiment a LOT (likely)


----------



## Lars

What happened to the price of tubes? I had a 6V6GT crap out on me last night and had a look online and the prices seems out of control, not only for a 6V6, but across the board. Is this a recent thing? I haven't bought tubes in like 5 years..

Ps. I found one in my stash, so I'm good, but still curious about current prices..


----------



## MarcelNL

6V6GT were re-discovered for home audio like 10-15 years ago and with that prices went through the ROOF...my previous amp used them and it's one of my favorite 'standard' tubes, but with prices nowadays??? Tubes in general are going up like crazy in the last 10 years or so. Just have a look at the price 'exotic'tubes fetch nowadays, not funny anymore!

(I count myself lucky having a best friend being a tube hoarder with many thousands of tubes in stock)

Look up 'collectible vinyl' prices....or vintage audio gear...all shot up like crazy..20 meters of tinned copper Klangfilm speaker wire fetching well over 500 euro now...

Try buying vintage Western Electric gear or components.....a single PIO capacitor can easily fetch like 800USD.

but, but but....weren't you into Hypex modules?


----------



## MarcelNL

I just received the new version of the active rectifyer for my linear PSu for the audio server project, up to 60Amps peak...will report back once installed and broken in!


----------



## LostHighway

Lars said:


> What happened to the price of tubes? I had a 6V6GT crap out on me last night and had a look online and the prices seems out of control, not only for a 6V6, but across the board. Is this a recent thing? I haven't bought tubes in like 5 years..
> 
> Ps. I found one in my stash, so I'm good, but still curious about current prices..


To the best of my knowledge most of the current production tube manufacture is in Russia and (perhaps to a lesser extent Eastern Europe). The war on Ukraine temporarily bottlenecked (no pun intended) availability of new production which in turn drove up prices for existing stock in the West both recent production and old stock. I believe they are or will be shipping Russian tubes again but slapped with largee tariffs.


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> but, but but....weren't you into Hypex modules?


Of course! But this was for a guitar amp. I wouldn't use such an outdated technology for my hifi, no way!


----------



## MarcelNL

IMO one of the best sounding versions by Sylvania set you back 57 euro a pair, provided your amp does not burn through them fast due to a crazy operating point they should last years.


Ask Jan First ® ; electron tubes and more


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> IMO one of the best sounding versions by Sylvania set you back 57 euro a pair, provided your amp does not burn through them fast due to a crazy operating point they should last years.
> 
> 
> Ask Jan First ® ; electron tubes and more


That's a very reasonable price, thanks for the link!


----------



## MarcelNL

Jan has LOADS of exotic stuff for very reasonable proces on stock, also perfect for oddball tubes should you want to venture into tubes for audio...the usual suspects typically used in audio are not the best pick (thinking of ECC88 etc)


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> Jan has LOADS of exotic stuff for very reasonable proces on stock, also perfect for oddball tubes should you want to venture into tubes for audio...the usual suspects typically used in audio are not the best pick (thinking of ECC88 etc)


I like ECC88, used them to drive a transformer in the output stage of an inductor based eq once. Sounded great. Well, I'm cheap, so I used PCC88 instead(different heater voltage, much cheaper)..


----------



## MarcelNL

these days most folks are aware of the different heater variants. If you are interested try some of the early triodes and compare against the 83, 88 81 etc...


----------



## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> these days most folks are aware of the different heater variants.


Looks like you are right. Just googled PCC88 and this came up. I think I paid 2€ each


----------



## Lars

Lars said:


> Looks like you are right. Just googled PCC88 and this came up. I think I paid 2€ each


Look mama! Were gonna be rich!


----------



## MarcelNL

yeah my best friend has a amassed a stash over the past 2 decades or so, I shudder to think what it's worth today...bought for Fl 1-2 now many are worth like 40-50 euro.


He has some totally over the top NIB Wehrmacht (U boot) transmitter tubes that were rare and fairly expensive when he bought them but these days they cost around 1500.


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## MarcelNL

for now, the new active rectifyer is in place, and I reckon it won't be removed for dereliction of duty...power is KING in audio, same in digital...


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## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> Looks like you are right. Just googled PCC88 and this came up. I think I paid 2€ each


BTW, I'd be careful with undervolting a tube filament, especially at this price point!


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> the new active rectifyer is in place
> 
> View attachment 187802


So, it's wireless?


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## Lars

..


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## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> So, it's wireless?


isn't it amazing what they can do with those cutting edge technologies?

a wireless dynamic range expander!


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## MarcelNL

the active rectifier is working out very nicely, some testing to be done to see if the effect is attributed to the rectifier alone or that the Vitamin Q 2KV bypass cap I was using was a factor. I suspect it's mostly the rectifier.
Next on the agenda are some PSU configurations, and to rip out the soft start....sorry Lars, the only sane part will be let go for an old fashioned resistor and bypass switch ;-) 
convienience only goes so far....


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> the active rectifier is working out very nicely, some testing to be done to see if the effect is attributed to the rectifier alone or that the Vitamin Q 2KV bypass cap I was using was a factor. I suspect it's mostly the rectifier.
> Next on the agenda are some PSU configurations, and to rip out the soft start....sorry Lars, the only sane part will be let go for an old fashioned resistor and bypass switch ;-)
> convienience only goes so far....


Don't feel sorry for me, man - I'll be fine..! But I must admit I'm struggling to understand what you are on about? The soft start is a sane part? And what's an old fashioned resistor? An insane one? Colour me puzzled!


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## MarcelNL

Lars said:


> Is that a Hypex soft start module I see? You may not be a lost cause after all..!


This might help ;-)


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> This might help ;-)


Don't lose hope! It's never too late to turn around and walk away from from the darkness..!


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## MarcelNL

the new soft start arrived;


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## MarcelNL

anyone who want a Hypex softstart can have it for free, well errr shipping cost.
The difference that removing it cannot make yet it does so and pretty clear...me being lazy and following a trodden path for once, pah...no more of that!


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## MarcelNL

In the light of the upcoming TAM! meeting I upgraded my DAC to Metrum Adagio with 8 DAC3 modules, will post pictures of the innards when I put in the I2S board, it's currently fitted with USB so unable to use it just yet.


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## gregfisk

I’ll be interested in what you think of the dac. I still have a Metrum octave at my beach house that I use on a small system. I’ve always been happy with it but they’ve made several new designs since.


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## MarcelNL

I had the Metrum Amethyst with DAC3 modules modded to accept I2S input, and now the Adagio with 8, plus the Adagio has three dedicated PSU's on board plus no output circuitry other than a Lundahl transformer (I grew fond of those when modding CD player output stages in the late eighties, later we built our own tube output sections)

initial listening tells me the sound fingerprint is similar, but the Adagio has far more authority and stability.
Secondary benefit is that the case has room for some 'special parts' 

edit; bigger 'stage' easier presentation, better slam, prat and all the usual suspects, but more than anything; it just sounds so much more 'right', natural, something I have always found NOS and R2R to do well but Metrum has taken that to another level.


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## gregfisk

I too have been a fan of NOS and R2R topologies. My last 3 dacs have been this and my current Lampizator Atlantic Plus dac with the upgraded clocks is really something special IMO.


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## MarcelNL

Lampi does nice things! I think he goes back to the heydays of CD player modding and took what he learned there to create new things,
I'm growing more fond of the adagio by the minute, effortless dynamics without compression are NICE (especially at 105dB/W)!


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## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> Lampi does nice things! I think he goes back to the heydays of CD player modding and took what he learned there to create new things,
> I'm growing more fond of the adagio by the minute, effortless dynamics without compression are NICE (especially at 105dB/W)!


That’s the beauty of horns and OB speakers in general. Everything is just there with you in the room and no box to hold it all back.


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## MarcelNL

the new DAC sings with more on-time...as usual...so it was very late when I ended the first listening session


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## MarcelNL

the next few days will be our mini audio fest, planning to do a comparison with the original Bionor filter and midrange/tweeter horn , playing with a freaked out active (tube) filter and going crazy testing more bypass capacitors....O and perhas a beer, or two, three.


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## MarcelNL

since we got to eat too I did some shopping...perhaps we can electrocute it to medium rare?


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## WildBoar

Hey, there are a couple good threads on food at ASR that you might enjoy


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## MarcelNL

ASR probably means they measure all flavor components to avoid any subjectivity ;-)
Not my scene at all ;-)


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## MarcelNL

It's absolutely ridiculous hot, yet the amps keep putting out heat...
couple of tube amps and an active filter so we can test various mid range/tweeters 
First day was pretty informative, started using a new tweeter and ended up with sonical bliss in the early hours of today.

Today the original Bionor filter and midrange will be compared with the Trionor setup.


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## MarcelNL

the verdict so far is that the original Bionor filter and mid/high horn is best, the fullrange plus supertweeter approach comes close behind..

second thought, the tweeter plus fullrange speakers is best...


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## MarcelNL

So we ran quite afew comparisons, in depth...using three amps and active and passive filtering.
A Decca Kelly ribbon, Stentorian, JBL 075, JBLxxx (forgot the nr), goto horn tweeter, Klangfilm KL302 with original filter.

final verdict is that the setup as is, with a different tweeter is best.


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## MarcelNL

after the dust created by the audio fest settled a bit I finally got around to decommission the Khozmo shunt volume regulator (using TX2575 naked z foil) and I'm baffled by the difference. The Adagio uses a clever system regulating the output volume by changing the reference voltage in the R2R ladder, I can vouch for the benefit!

Now I start wondering what difference using the Khozmo attanuator makes when it replaces the Alps motor pot the Adagio is using...using 'digital' volume control is worse than a standard potentiometer, as it affects bit depth/resolution.


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## MarcelNL

last PSU experiments (is there such a thing?), yet another active rectifier (capable of ridiculous burst currents)


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## MarcelNL

you win some, you lose some, after returning from vacation I wanted badly to seriously listen to some music for the first time in like 3 weeks so i tried to start the server....after half a day of trouble shooting the issue seems to be a hairline fracture in the ATX power supply, sniff....not sure how and why that now is an issue as I turned it off to save some heat during the first week of the heatwave and everything worked just fine....great to have a stereo microscope...
Guess I'll be paying Taiko a visit to see if this can be repaired/replaced.


Meanwhile I bought a Myiami Zero mono cartridge at a great price and some more mono vinyl  , the cartridge is destined for the RCA 70A turntable but that will only be put in place once the new home is ready (4 months and counting) so I think I'll indulge using it on the L75 meanwhile.


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## Geigs

MarcelNL said:


> after the dust created by the audio fest settled a bit I finally got around to decommission the Khozmo shunt volume regulator (using TX2575 naked z foil) and I'm baffled by the difference. The Adagio uses a clever system regulating the output volume by changing the reference voltage in the R2R ladder, I can vouch for the benefit!
> 
> Now I start wondering what difference using the Khozmo attanuator makes when it replaces the Alps motor pot the Adagio is using...using 'digital' volume control is worse than a standard potentiometer, as it affects bit depth/resolution.



What's the music in this, super chill


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## MarcelNL

That is a three Blind Mice recording, The Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio with 'Midnight Sugar' pretty much the most dynamic piano recording I know. TBM are famous for their stellar recording, and contrary to many 'audiophile'' labels that seem to select plastic jazz, pop etc the music is usually good too.


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## MarcelNL

Major progress on the new tube amp, one channel is ready so we had a good listening session last evening, errr all night...sound is magical, very clear and detailed, with dynamics that never end or compress, powerful very controlled low ex that extends further than I ever heard. And all of that from approx 2.5W output out of the single tube it uses


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## Lars

That looks dangerous.


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## MarcelNL

is life without any danger fun? All HT is secured, think that the biggest danger would be Mercury vapor in case the rectifier explodes.


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## M1k3

Lars said:


> That looks dangerous.


Fire hazard all around!


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## Lars

MarcelNL said:


> is life without any danger fun?


Good point. I ride my bicycle without a helmet, so who am I to judge


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## MarcelNL

on the topic of fire hazard.....we inhaled much of a transformer a few days ago....turns out a 12V AC transformer was used for a dual 12V DC PSU and I assume that was the reason for the smoke out....the fuse did not pop, the power did not switch off but the casing was too hot too handle and the transformer went up in smoke ever so gently.....so DIY is likely safer than ready bought products.
( dual 12V regulated ultra low noise PSU for the network router and switch)


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## MarcelNL

The good news is that the ATX module was not defective, but a wire in the ATX cable was....so no voltage swings etc...I ended up owning two ATX modules so a next experiment will involve both.... one for the CPU and one for the Motherboard. 

The power (? is it that at 2W output) is coming together nicely.....I've never heard better dynamics and better low end extension.


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## MarcelNL

in the never ending quest for bigger is better I had a custom transformer winder make me new chokes using an exotic core material and some special tricks he uses...needless to say they are even bigger than the Lundahl chunks of iron.

it is ridiculous how much impact on sound everyhting in this linear PSU has...


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## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> in the never ending quest for bigger is better I had a custom transformer winder make me new chokes using an exotic core material and some special tricks he uses...needless to say they are even bigger than the Lundahl chunks of iron.
> 
> it is ridiculous how much impact on sound everyhting in this linear PSU has...


That doesn’t surprise me at all. Current rules for controlling drivers and bigger in this case anyway is definitely better!


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## MarcelNL

I should by now not be surprised anymore, but we're talking about the linear PSU that feeds the Taiko ATX module which feeds the motherboard of my music server. I am hearing the same sonic fingerprint as in my new amp, that contains a huge 400H choke using the same core material by the same maker.


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## Corradobrit1

Just finished my latest home-brew speaker project. A mere shadow of Marcel's mega speakers.
These are FH3 back loaded horn designs with matched Mark Audio MAOP full range drivers. Total cost around $550. The driver cone is a single oxide crystal. Super rigid but quite delicate. Duelund internal wiring using silver solder. Baltic birch cabinet was professionally cut on a CNC router. Sits on outriggers. Still playing with the internal damping and needs another couple hundred hours for burn in but even at this early stage I'm very impressed with the frequency range. Mike Oldfields Tubular Bells (wow is it really the 50th anniversary since the release of this album in 2023, how time flies) sounds magnificent.


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## MarcelNL

nice! Clean build, and probably lots of fun listening whil the chassis break in!

full range is IMO the way to go, and if possible high efficiency.
if you feel up to it I'd recommend playing around by adding 'wings', for experimenting just use cardboard flaps to extend the baffle, no need to be shy (sweet spot is at about 200cm by 200cm)


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## Corradobrit1

@MarcelNL did you attend the EFT in Baarlo? Seems to be right up your alley.






ElectraVolt


Exploration of horn loudspeakers and turntables. This blog is created by Charles Michlin of Azzolina Audio a loudspeaker company.




electravolt.blogspot.com


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## MarcelNL

Corradobrit1 said:


> @MarcelNL did you attend the EFT in Baarlo? Seems to be right up your alley.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ElectraVolt
> 
> 
> Exploration of horn loudspeakers and turntables. This blog is created by Charles Michlin of Azzolina Audio a loudspeaker company.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electravolt.blogspot.com


No I did not, (it's by invitation only and the crowd tends to be a little shy of computer audio) my best friend did however...looking forward to hear all about it next weekend.


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## Corradobrit1

MarcelNL said:


> nice! Clean build, and probably lots of fun listening whil the chassis break in!
> 
> full range is IMO the way to go, and if possible high efficiency.
> if you feel up to it I'd recommend playing around by adding 'wings', for experimenting just use cardboard flaps to extend the baffle, no need to be shy (sweet spot is at about 200cm by 200cm)


Unfortunately not very apartment or WAF friendly. I would love to build some real horn speakers with Lowther A55 alnico drivers. But that will have to wait until I have a dedicated listening room again.


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## Corradobrit1

MarcelNL said:


> No I did not, (it's by invitation only and the crowd tends to be a little shy of computer audio) my best friend did however...looking forward to hear all about it next weekend.


Charles Azzolina Michlin (Azzolina Audio) is a very good friend of mine. His speakers won best in show this year for the small cabinet category. I would be interested to hear what your friend thought too.
Chuck also builds tube amps (at one point in time he partnered with Thomas Mayer who I'm sure you've heard of), but speakers are his main focus these days. He has just signed a contract with the French company Supervox to run their operations after a change of ownership.


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## MarcelNL

I'll ask him about those speakers! did you refer to supravox? (that is a well recognized and well established brand)

WAF is something you need some luck and some skill for, 'on probation' often works really well ;-)
I have won the lottery as my GF is very tolerant, yet two of the current speakers in this room was too much (and I agree as we currently live in a pea sized house).


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## coxhaus

gregfisk said:


> I used to have a beautiful Joule Electra preamp that had a mono button. I couldn’t believe how good some old mono recordings sound. It was also really good for testing in that you could a/b easily between channels. And yes, keep us informed on your progress.


I have a Joule preamp 2 piece and I like it a lot. What did you switch to?

I am just now catching up with this thread.


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## Corradobrit1

MarcelNL said:


> did you refer to supravox? (that is a well recognized and well established brand)


Yes, my bad, its supravox. They've been around since 1956... incredible longevity.


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## gregfisk

coxhaus said:


> I have a Joule preamp 2 piece and I like it a lot. What did you switch to?
> 
> I am just now catching up with this thread.


I really enjoyed that preamp but I ended up getting a Lampizator Atlantic Plus dac with volume control. So, I no longer have a preamp or really, the dac is the preamp now. The difference, if you’re interested is a cleaner presentation with just a touch less warmth but still, with the tubes in the Lampi it’s very nice. Hopefully you’ve found someone to work on it since Judd passed away several years ago now. He was a wonderful man and really took care of me when I had some issues.


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## MarcelNL

gregfisk said:


> I really enjoyed that preamp but I ended up getting a Lampizator Atlantic Plus dac with volume control. So, I no longer have a preamp or really, the dac is the preamp now. The difference, if you’re interested is a cleaner presentation with just a touch less warmth but still, with the tubes in the Lampi it’s very nice. Hopefully you’ve found someone to work on it since Judd passed away several years ago now. He was a wonderful man and really took care of me when I had some issues.


NICE! Lampi makes great DAC's


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## coxhaus

gregfisk said:


> I really enjoyed that preamp but I ended up getting a Lampizator Atlantic Plus dac with volume control. So, I no longer have a preamp or really, the dac is the preamp now. The difference, if you’re interested is a cleaner presentation with just a touch less warmth but still, with the tubes in the Lampi it’s very nice. Hopefully you’ve found someone to work on it since Judd passed away several years ago now. He was a wonderful man and really took care of me when I had some issues.


Yes, I have the Line 3 SE+ upgrade before he died.


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## gregfisk

coxhaus said:


> Yes, I have the Line 3 SE+ upgrade before he died.


Sounds like you have the unit that I had. One thing he did for me was add a bypass switch so I could use it with my surround sound system.


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## coxhaus

gregfisk said:


> Sounds like you have the unit that I had. One thing he did for me was add a bypass switch so I could use it with my surround sound system.


I love the midrange from the Joule with my EgglestonWorks Savoy speakers. My Joule is a 2 piece with separate power supply.

I don't do movies with my stereo system as I think the movies are too crude. I tried it and probably the best movie sound for me has been with B&W 801 speakers. I kept downsizing system for movies and finally I am at a couple of JBL PartyBox100 blue tooth speakers that I am happy with. I have a Krell 5 channel amp I used for while with Revel surround speakers with 2 15-inch B15 subs. The power draw is high. I switched to a Rotel receiver, but I finally gave that up. It was too hard to clean around all that stuff in the living room and my wife really did not want gear in both our living room and den. I have a separate listening room with room treatments for only stereo. I am happy with my Sony Bravia 85 inch and 2 JBL Partybox 100 speakers for my TV and movie speakers. They are very low power draw as I have a large living room about 800 sqft they fill it with sound. And I only like the first gen JBL Partybox 100 speakers as the second gen they screwed the midrange up. I do miss the real low deep bass in game of thrones in the intro but it is not worth the power draw to me.

PS
I think my Joule preamp may be a LA-300ME SE. It looks like it. I don't remember as it has been a few years. I can't get to the back right now as it is on a large stand. My stand has 3 shelves that are 4-inch-thick maple blocks 4 feet wide and 2 feet, real heavy. They are giant cutting boards, no I had them made up in maple country by one of the big cutting board makers. I don't remember which one now as that has also been too long ago.
Sounds like the Platinum Upgrade was the last upgrade.


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## gregfisk

coxhaus said:


> I love the midrange with my EgglestonWorks Savoy speakers. My Joule is a 2 piece with separate power supply.
> 
> I don't do movies with my stereo system as I think the movies are too crude. I tried it and probably the best movie sound for me has been with B&W 801 speakers. I kept downsizing system for movies and finally I am at a couple of JBL PartyBox100 blue tooth speakers that I am happy with. I have a Krell 5 channel amp I used for while with Revel surround speakers with 2 15-inch B15 subs. The power draw is high. I switched to a Rotel receiver, but I finally gave that up. It was too hard to clean around all that stuff in the living room and my wife really did not want gear in both our living room and den. I have a separate listening room with room treatments for only stereo. I am happy with my Sony Bravia 85 inch and 2 JBL Partybox 100 speakers for my TV and movie speakers. They are very low power draw as I have a large living room about 800 sqft they fill it with sound. And I only like the first gen JBL Partybox 100 speakers as the second gen they screwed the midrange up. I do miss the real low deep bass in game of thrones but it is not worth the power draw to me.


I’ve gone down a similar path myself. I just use a 5.1 Denon receiver For surround in the house with some Ariel 7B speakers and a cheap center channel. I use a SVS sub which I love for the bass. We also have a very large open living space with 17’ flat ceilings. I ended up turning a 600sq. Ft. 20’x30’ falling down garage into my listening room and also have a lot of room treatment. It’s amazing how much better a dedicated listening room can sound. I did have my Joule in there at the beginning and like I mentioned, I really liked it.


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## MarcelNL

Tomorrow we'll be comparing the Miyaima Zero (to go with the RCA 70 A turntable) to the Infinity cartridge going crazy with lots of mono Vinyl.

A true first pressings festival; things like Johanna Martzy playing Bach solo, Pierre Fournier, Karl Suske, Chet Baker, Jimi Hendrix etc.


----------



## MarcelNL

prep work for listening to music in the new house, making some Dammer resin based varnish for the acoustical panels I installed;

(test piece with some different finishes)


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## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> Tomorrow we'll be comparing the Miyaima Zero (to go with the RCA 70 A turntable) to the Infinity cartridge going crazy with lots of mono Vinyl.
> 
> A true first pressings festival; things like Johanna Martzy playing Bach solo, Pierre Fournier, Karl Suske, Chet Baker, Jimi Hendrix etc.


How did you like the Zero? I like mine--need to get it set back up on the new turntable.


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## gregfisk

MarcelNL said:


> prep work for listening to music in the new house, making some Dammer resin based varnish for the acoustical panels I installed;
> 
> (test piece with some different finishes)View attachment 218121


How are these panels been tested? I’ve not seen this type of panel before.


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## MarcelNL

ACHiPo said:


> How did you like the Zero? I like mine--need to get it set back up on the new turntable.


Overall I liked the Infiniety a bit more, it's slightly more open and refined but the Zero has like 90% of that and we could not adjust all parameters on the fly (we did use weights to weigh both cartridges down as needed) 
a.q. termination resistor and capacitance were not optimized.


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## MarcelNL

gregfisk said:


> How are these panels been tested? I’ve not seen this type of panel before.


dunno, all I know is that they already work to cancel most echo in an almost empty room without any curtains.

Basically they are diffusor panels, PE spun into felt as backing to get some distance from the wall (their effectivess increases when you mount the panels on a frame filled with glass wool) and small strips of wood creating diffraction of sound waves. Higher midrange and above mostly, but the impact of the approximately 4 m^2 is noticeable.


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## wcothran

@gregfisk How are liking that Lampizator Atlantic? I've been thinking about introducing some tubes into my two channel setup and wondering if the DAC may be a good entry point.


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## MarcelNL

ACHiPo said:


> How did you like the Zero? I like mine--need to get it set back up on the new turntable.


The Zero will go on the RCA 70A, now I have the space to put it in I can start refurbishing the beast soon!
(and building a tone arm and phono stage with adjustable correction curves)


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## MarcelNL

wcothran said:


> @gregfisk How are liking that Lampizator Atlantic? I've been thinking about introducing some tubes into my two channel setup and wondering if the DAC may be a good entry point.


IMO it depends on what you're aiming for, IME tubes make a bigger impact with more power..that is you want to need the smallest amount of power you can get away with....as in; use efficient speakers.

I started my audio tinkering journey back in the late 80-ies modifying a stock Marantz CD player to the point where it became a non oversampling 16Bit player using the TDA 1541 gold crown with a home grown SRPP tube output using E80C tubes and a resistor for I/V conversion. Getting rid of the oversampling and filtering around the opamps previoulsy used in the output stage had more benificial impact on SQ than replacing good opamps with tubes.

that said, not knowing what DAC you aim to replace with a Lampi makes it hard to say anything worthwhile, I dare say a Lampi is a great sounding DAC!









LampizatOr Baltic 3 (includes shipping in Europe)


View Classified LampizatOr Baltic 3 (includes shipping in Europe) The “sweet spot” among LampizatOr DAC's when it comes to price vs performance. Silver front with blue LED ring button Upgraded with Neutrik RCA connectors at factory PCM384kHz, DSD512 Inputs: USB, AES/EBU, S/PDIF, TOSLINK Analog ou...




audiophilestyle.com





interestingly that Baltic uses E80CC


----------



## gregfisk

wcothran said:


> @gregfisk How are liking that Lampizator Atlantic? I've been thinking about introducing some tubes into my two channel setup and wondering if the DAC may be a good entry point.


I have been really happy with it and for the time being I’m settled on my current system as my end all in my search. On the plus side I have some tube warmth with a very clean crisp presentation. Another plus is the volume control so that I don’t need a preamp. The only down side IMO is with my Lampizator Atlantic dac you can’t swap out tubes. I haven’t felt like I’ve needed to but I also don’t have a choice even if I did. I will add that the Atlantic isn’t an old tubey sound but an ultra clean sound with just the right amount of warmth IMO. If you like a thicker, darker tube presentation it might not be for you. I hope this makes sense? It can be difficult to portray a sound signature in writing.


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## ACHiPo

MarcelNL said:


> The Zero will go on the RCA 70A, now I have the space to put it in I can start refurbishing the beast soon!
> (and building a tone arm and phono stage with adjustable correction curves)


A 70A? And a room-sized speaker? You must have a very understanding family!

Are you familiar with the SupaTrac Blackbird tonearm? Pretty interesting design, rave reviews, and could look nice on a cleaned up 70A.


SUPATRAC Blackbird


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## MarcelNL

ACHiPo said:


> A 70A? And a room-sized speaker? You must have a very understanding family!
> 
> Are you familiar with the SupaTrac Blackbird tonearm? Pretty interesting design, rave reviews, and could look nice on a cleaned up 70A.
> 
> 
> SUPATRAC Blackbird


We get along pretty well ;-)

Yeah I've seen and heard the supatrack, interesting design! We're going for a loooong arm (14-16") with a pretty elaborate bearing design


----------

