# Deba issues and stone



## Richard1978 (Oct 12, 2020)

Just recently received a really nice sharp deba used it to fillet a medium sized trout...so pin bones and rib bones not that large! Figured i would give it a touch up on my 10000 grit stone and the knife kept sticking it felt like i was going over a cattle grid...i cleaned and flattened the stone serveral times used the little cleaning stone and not much changed...any suggestions advise as to whats is going on appreciated!


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## mise_en_place (Oct 12, 2020)

10K grit stone or 1K grit stone?


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## Richard1978 (Oct 12, 2020)

10k just a touch up


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## M1k3 (Oct 12, 2020)

What stone is it? What are you using to clean it off with?


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## mise_en_place (Oct 12, 2020)

10k is awful high for a knife that it used in butchery. Do you mean when you go across the bones it "feels like a cattle grid?"

I'm not really sure what kind of edges people who regularly use deba prefer, but I see no need to take a deba used to filet fish past 6K. I wouldn't really go that far, but those 1k/6k stones are common. I'd try giving it a pass or two on a lower grit like 1k and choose a finisher in the 2-3k range at most. 

See how that does on fish. If you did a proper job with a 10k stone, you may have too fine a polish to be useful on bone-in fish. That's my best guess with the information you've provided.


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 12, 2020)

Pretty sure they mean the feeling when sharpening a wide bevel and the knife starts to skip or stutter. Most likely the stone is getting too dry - soak it for longer beforehand and/or refresh it with more water while sharpening. There's a chance the stone isn't suitable for wide bevel sharpening, but that's less likely. Either way it would help to know exactly which stone you're using.


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## ian (Oct 12, 2020)

More water on the stone? Kick up a little slurry with your flattener and leave it on while you sharpen?

*deleted a bunch of stuff since idk what I’m talking about*


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## M1k3 (Oct 12, 2020)

What stones do you own @Richard1978? What lapping/flattening devices do you have?


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## Richard1978 (Oct 12, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> Pretty sure they mean the feeling when sharpening a wide bevel and the knife starts to skip or stutter. Most likely the stone is getting too dry - soak it for longer beforehand and/or refresh it with more water while sharpening. There's a chance the stone isn't suitable for wide bevel sharpening, but that's less likely. Either way it would help to know exactly which stone you're using.



Spaceconvoy has it right its the skip/stutter feeling...no idea what brand the stones are all in japanese...but they were recommened by rhe seller for the deba and yanagi and gyuto i have purchased...i was told specifically the 10k is a splash and go but i soak it anyway...if it helps i can send in a photo of the stone?


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 12, 2020)

We should be able to identify it from the japanese writing


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## Richard1978 (Oct 12, 2020)

Just found the stone box will send photo also here is my lapping plate


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 12, 2020)

Sakai Ichimonji Mitsuhide


Sakai Ichimonji : A Japanese Kitchen Knife Store located in Osaka's historical Kitchen District. Sakai Ichimonji has been crafting premium Japanese kitchen knives since 1953. "Connecting with Sharpness"




ichimonji.jp




That's a resinoid stone, which can work as splash and go but it's not optimal, especially for a wide bevel. Here's expert advice about how to deal with them, from Jon at Japanese Knife Imports:





Sharpening Stones - Soaking vs Splash'nGo - Some Info


Resinoid based stones respond to soaking and drying differently from ceramic, clay based, and magnesia based stones. Magnesia based stones, like the chocera, will crack when over-soaked due to magnesia (the binding agent) leaching out in the water. After a while, the stone looses structural...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## M1k3 (Oct 12, 2020)

Regarding the skating feeling, you will want some loose abrasive on the stone, almost like a paste just not as thick. And use light pressure.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 12, 2020)

So in short is the concenus to soak the stone longer and see if that eliminates the shudder/skip?...fyi i noticed this issue was more prominent with the deba than yanagi but obviously the deba is alot heavier!


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## Richard1978 (Oct 12, 2020)

I alway make a slurry with the cleaning stone but that did ot seem to make a difference in this instance...from the way this thread has progress im i right in assuming i shud leave it to soak longer than i have been...even though it is a splash and go?


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## M1k3 (Oct 12, 2020)

You can try soaking it. 
Not sure if you're doing this or not, hold the knife at about 45° on the stone instead of perpendicular.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 12, 2020)

When i do shinogi the knife is about 45 degrees. When i do uraoshi the k ife is perpendicular...fyi i have only experienced the stutter/skip on shinogi side!


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## dafox (Oct 12, 2020)

Is stuttering/skipping more likely to happen with beta togi sharpening versus hamaguri? With beta togi sharpening the entire kiriba is flat on the stone, lots of surface area to stick, grab, get stuck, with Hamaguri sharpening, something like 1/3 of the kiriba is in contact with the stone so less sticking, grabbing, and getting stuck.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 12, 2020)

Yes but while i understand the principle of hamaguri sharpening i am yet to find a resonable video clip that shows how to! plus i dont think im at that level...


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## dafox (Oct 12, 2020)

Richard1978 said:


> Yes but while i understand the principle of hamaguri sharpening i am yet to find a resonable video clip that shows how to! plus i dont think im at that level...


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## Richard1978 (Oct 13, 2020)

I noticed in jons video that he uses a yanagiba! is it the same process for a deba? Especially for the tip section the deba curves more than a yanagiba and i seem to be having more difficulty with it on the deba than on the yanagiba...


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## dafox (Oct 13, 2020)

Richard1978 said:


> I noticed in jons video that he uses a yanagiba! is it the same process for a deba? Especially for the tip section the deba curves more than a yanagiba and i seem to be having more difficulty with it on the deba than on the yanagiba...


I dont know, i haven't sharpened any deba yet, just wide bevel gyutos and yanagiba.


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## adrianopedro (Oct 13, 2020)

Richard1978 said:


> I noticed in jons video that he uses a yanagiba! is it the same process for a deba? Especially for the tip section the deba curves more than a yanagiba and i seem to be having more difficulty with it on the deba than on the yanagiba...



same process, I just don't use coarse stones on Uraoshi


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## kayman67 (Oct 13, 2020)

At 10k with that kind of stone (not sure if soaking is a great idea, might lead to cracking it), on a deba bevel, to evenly polish it, you need slurry and water management. That's a pretty advanced technique. It's not all that different from what you would have to do with hard Jnats. Once this did its job, for the very edge at the end, actually some super light stropping improves it by an able to feel margin. I now use Naniwa Super Stone 10000 for this, though I have used others in the past. But there is a caveat. 
This is something I can do with it and what eventually will happen (more or less) if you pursue the path.


I don't think this is what you want with the "touching up". So you need to skip to the very end and just do some very light stropping. Takes a while. It's the only time I directly recommend stropping because edge leading is just difficult and from my experience almost everybody gets the fine edge damaged. 
That edge cuts meat like butter. The grit is not the real problem.


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## GorillaGrunt (Oct 14, 2020)

I only have one deba and only use it for cutting up salmon; I am by no means experienced with these. But what I do is sharpen the bevel on an Aoto or Aizu, a medium-fine range stone, then do a 1-3 stroke microbevel on a finisher and the ura on that. 10k seems pretty fine for a deba, higher than I’d want to go with it, but I also am not good with that sort of stone either.


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## Nemo (Oct 14, 2020)

Which knife are we talking about sharpening? What's the core steel? Is it iron clad or SS clad? Who made/ heat treated it?


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## Richard1978 (Oct 14, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Which knife are we talking about sharpening? What's the core steel? Is it iron clad or SS clad? Who made/ heat treated it?


It was purchased from ichimonji shop in japan it is a white steel number 2 thats about as much as i know on the make of the knife


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## Richard1978 (Oct 14, 2020)

Ok guys i dropped back to a 6k stone still get the skip stutter... open to suggestions now...as it really detracts from the sharpening pleasure process!...the 6k is a soak in water stone soaked it for an hour did the slurry with the cleaninf stone and levelled the stone...


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## kayman67 (Oct 14, 2020)

I'm not sure there is that much more to be added. I imagine the 10k stone is not exactly what you expected or even wanted/want. Try making a layer of slurry, add water as needed and see how far you can go. Repeat. But you are heading towards a fully mirror edge. That's one thing to consider. I also imagine it might not happen right away since you might not be able to keep consistency to the high level this would require. But if you don't practice and practice, you won't get any better anyway.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 14, 2020)

Hi kayman67 i have dropped down to a 6k stone from the 10k stone and it still stutters/skips i also breifly tried a 3k stone that also skipped but not as much as the 6 or 10k stone...problem is every time it skips it speeds up over the stone causing a pivot in my holding hand...rounding the shinogi line...etc


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## GorillaGrunt (Oct 14, 2020)

Skipping I think is a result of too much pressure and/or not enough water/slurry. That said I've run into stones where that occurs much more readily than others, usually finer synthetics, that therefore take more finesse and practice to use on a wide bevel.


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## kayman67 (Oct 14, 2020)

Even with a layer of slurry? Do you get black spots where it skips? Swarf might build up into the surface. Take it slowly, make slurry, add water as needed. Clean any spots. Ease the pressure if you can't control everything at once. As the grit gets higher, developing the edge gets much more difficult than people imagine, but also dealing with polishing reveals a lot of consistency problems and surface management (there isn't really a one fix all type of thing here, it's experience and the capacity to adjust or compensate for various things). 
The main problem I see is that you are learning on a good knife, that might be "damaged" a bit in the process.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 14, 2020)

I will add one thing here...while the knife skips/ shutters when moving back and forth on the stone it feels like suction not so much digging in like when you flatten the stone with your leveling plate...did that make sense...it doesnt seem to happen with my yanagiba whichis a wide bevel knife...there seens to be some correlation to the weight of the knife as well...


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## kayman67 (Oct 14, 2020)

More water, less pressure.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 14, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> More water, less pressure.


Seems to skip on weight alone of the knife i removed my two presure fingers from the knife and it still skipped


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## ian (Oct 14, 2020)

Would you be willing to upload a video where we can see the knife skipping, just so that we can see what is happening?


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## kayman67 (Oct 14, 2020)

Seems like there are more things going on. Pretty flat bevel, drying slurry and surface, still too much pressure for these conditions. 
Same as before, slurry layer, water, take it slow, ease the pressure (you consider that there is no pressure way to late, by that time, it will stick on its own).


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## Richard1978 (Oct 14, 2020)

ian said:


> Would you be willing to upload a video where we can see the knife skipping, just so that we can see what is happening?


Ok i will try and put something together...and post it but i am not that technological and live alone only have phone...so may be a few days or so...so i can organise friend to help out with the videoing...


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## M1k3 (Oct 14, 2020)

Richard1978 said:


> Ok i will try and put something together...and post it but i am not that technological and live alone only have phone...so may be a few days or so...so i can organise friend to help out with the videoing...


Not sure how you are setup. In my kitchen I have a cabinet above my kitchen counter. I place my phone in the cabinet poking out, facing down. Like this


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## ian (Oct 14, 2020)

If you have a laptop with a camera, you can record using that. (I notice you said you only have a phone, though.)

Just wanted to say that because I spent a while propping my phone up in weird ways before realizing I could just put my computer on the counter.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 17, 2020)

Ok guys i have mad a vid of me sharpening on my phone and troed to up load but it tells me the file is to large for the server! I can see anything on my phone that lets me compress edit it so any suggestions appreciated.


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## M1k3 (Oct 17, 2020)

Richard1978 said:


> Ok guys i have mad a vid of me sharpening on my phone and troed to up load but it tells me the file is to large for the server! I can see anything on my phone that lets me compress edit it so any suggestions appreciated.


Youtube. You can set privacy settings so it's not searchable if you wanted to.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

Any other suggestions besides utube...not really my thing!!!...if i make a zip folder can i attach that and if so will it be able to be view by anyone wishing to open it?


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## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

Google Drive/Photos? Dropbox? OneDrive? WeTransfer?


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

Ok ive had a look at google photos but there seems to be no compressing option...im trying to reduce the size of my video so it can be uploaded to the forums server...


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## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

Just upload it somewhere and give a link.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Just upload it somewhere and give a link.


Lol mate if i knew what that meant or how to do it i would...


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## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

Drag and drop the movie into Google Photos. It will upload and you can share a link after. I don't see anything faster than that, if you have an account.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

Ok im exhausted...i am not technological at all...plus i dont have time for this...i have google photos but i cannot see the pathway to drag videos into it...infact i cant see any reference to videos in google photos and i cant see any pathway to create a link...sorry


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## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

If you have the movie on a PC already, drag it into the browser. 

If it's just on your phone, from within the app (Google Photos), you will have a "cloud" with an arrow in the right upper corner. Or you could just create a link (lower left corner, the 3 dots connected by lines) and it will be uploaded by default.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

Tomorrow i will look at it! now i am way past caring...yep only got phone...


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

Mmm...no cloud with an arrow top right no 3 dots connected by lines in bottom left corner...this seems to be my story with technology


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

When i open google photos on my phone this is what comes up!


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## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

Just touch one of them. You should see the following. 
Click that and Create link. Should be somewhere in the lower left corner. 

*This is already in the cloud, so no cloud icon available.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

Ok i got to here but how do i share it to the forum?


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## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

Paste the link here. 

Hold your finger in the reply box where you input text until a meniu pops, with Paste.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

Take 2 i got to here how do i share/link it to the forum?


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

After i create link this is the page i get! Where do i press and hold to get the paste function...


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## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

"Hold finger here"


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

If i do that i only get clipboard...dont i have to do copy first before i get paste?


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## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

Link was already made above, as far as I can see. But you can repeat the process from within Google Photos, with Create link and see if you get the paste option directly when you try here to hold and pop up that meniu.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

New item by Richard Cook







photos.app.goo.gl





Test only!


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

Rightyo looks like it worked for the photo did it??? (Photo of yanagiba)..unfortunately in previous attempts to up load the vid clip i have deleted it somehow...so i will have to do the vid clip again tomorrow...assuming its the same process regardless of vid or photo?...fyi thanks kayman67 help most appreciated...look me up if your ever in tassie...


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## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

Even from Google Photos? 

In Google Photos you have the Library button (bottom right) and this will change the layout where you can see Bin (somewhere in the upper middle, right side). Select that. If you see the clip, touch it and there should be a Restore option (bottom right). Files remain in the Bin for a couple of months, if I recall correctly. But only those that made it to the clouds.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 20, 2020)

Unfortunately the delete happened before it was transferred across to google photos...did the photo of yanagiba work?


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## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

Yes, photo works well. 

Some phones also offer a similar Bin option, but this vary a lot. I wouldn't know where to tell you to search for it, if there is any.


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## Richard1978 (Oct 21, 2020)

New video by Richard Cook







photos.app.goo.gl





Ok here is the video finally...

I used my 10k as the issue is most prominent on this stone!

A couple other things of note as i am not sure they will be obvious in the video

Firstly it seems to get better as a slurry builds
Secondly it only seems to happen near the heel section up to where the curve begins
Thirdly it seems to be more of a suction/release slip rather than a skip.

Over to you guys now


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## M1k3 (Oct 21, 2020)

My initial thought is to much water. Washing away any slurry you have. Add a little bit of water when the stone starts looking dry or the slurry gets to pasty.


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## kayman67 (Oct 21, 2020)

Doesn't seem to be that much slurry going on in the first place, but might be just all being white. The stone doesn't have a chance to get started. 
Surface loading, as expected. And on those spots that are giving you a headache, there should be a dry place. The heel has maybe a flatter spot so might get stuck faster. You feel like it gets rather glued to the surface?


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## Richard1978 (Oct 21, 2020)

Yeah a bit like glued...but the closest i can come up with is the suctioning like when the cleaning stone suctions to the stone little like two magnets between a thin piece of metal...


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## Richard1978 (Oct 21, 2020)

Thin piece on non metalic metal


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