# Why Not Only use a 6-8000 grit stone?!?



## TEWNCfarms (May 11, 2018)

Except for putting a new edge on a knife, why not only use a finishing stone to keep it sharp? Ive been trying this lately and been going great! And most importantly Im not wearing down my blade as much. I get it Just as sharp as when I was using the 1000 grit stone, but saving metal, stone, and time.


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## JBroida (May 11, 2018)

nothing wrong with that if you're dilligent... of course you'll still need other stones for thinning, repairs, or if the edge ever gets really dull


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## TEWNCfarms (May 11, 2018)

JBroida said:


> nothing wrong with that if you're dilligent... of course you'll still need other stones for thinning, repairs, or if the edge ever gets really dull



Cool thanks! Yeah Ive got a 220 Naniwa flattener and the 1000 side of the king, and a 220 Natural for the 6000.

Do you all have natural stones at JKI?


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## JBroida (May 11, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> Cool thanks! Yeah Ive got a 220 Naniwa flattener and the 1000 side of the king, and a 220 Natural for the 6000.
> 
> Do you all have natural stones at JKI?



yeah... we have some on the website, and quite a few more waiting to be put up on the website


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## LucasFur (May 11, 2018)

Master Broida has spoken, 

I only use my lower grit stones to Thin and sharpen others (friends) knives.


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## K813zra (May 11, 2018)

JBroida said:


> yeah... we have some on the website, and quite a few more waiting to be put up on the website



Always happy to see you put up new naturals.


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## fatboylim (May 11, 2018)

JBroida said:


> nothing wrong with that if you're dilligent... of course you'll still need other stones for thinning, repairs, or if the edge ever gets really dull


Always great advice Jon... and videos; legend! 

Some added context, the performance of the knife will reduce over time with touch up sharpening only. Thinning will bring back the performance.

When your knife feels thuggish, thinning will be needed.

Look up Jon for more videos.


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## TEWNCfarms (May 11, 2018)

fatboylim said:


> Always great advice Jon... and videos; legend!
> 
> Some added context, the performance of the knife will reduce over time with touch up sharpening only. Thinning will bring back the performance.
> 
> ...



Ahh I see thanks!


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## HRC_64 (May 11, 2018)

using fine abrasives is 'fine' 
until its not, basically...


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## Mucho Bocho (May 11, 2018)

TEWN,

A proper kitchen needs to possess course teeth, or its just going to slip and slide on food. 

Someone "KnifeKNerd" gave me this advise. Think of it this way, you want to lay down large aggressive teeth (1000), then put smaller teeth on those teeth (6000). What happens if your not very careful after 6K for double bevel knives is your risk polishing out those larger teeth. 

So its not just the stone choice, its also about pressure and # of strokes used in sharpening. 

You'll never get an ideal kitchen edge if you keep polishing on high grit. You'll get a slippery, shiny bevel that will work better to shave your face than wack through a few tomatoes.


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## K813zra (May 11, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> TEWN,
> 
> A proper kitchen needs to possess course teeth, or its just going to slip and slide on food.
> 
> ...



Different knives made of different steel or even the same with a different heat treat seem to hold "tooth" or not, differently at different grit levels as well. Rather, my Fujiwara FKH seems to start losing even subtle hints of bite around 5-6k but my KS in white #2 seems to hold onto a fair bit of subtle bite off of the Kitayama 8k, even after half a dozen touch ups. Regardless, as you point out, when the stone stops bringing the bite back it is time to drop down a stone or two. Or at least that is how I do it.


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## TEWNCfarms (May 12, 2018)

Thanks you guys! Ive debated this with Jon but I like to have a razor smooth edge, I want it to glide through just from the weight instead of having to slice it. Now granted maybe I havent actually had a super smooth polished edge... but Im pretty sure I get it. Anyway to tell? When I do the weight push cut no pulling through paper it feels super smooth and like butter, and when I pull the entire blade through its like nothing is there at all


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## swarth (May 12, 2018)

You debated with Jon?


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## TEWNCfarms (May 12, 2018)

swarth said:


> You debated with Jon?



Hahaha yeah in a different thread, I cant remember one of my old ones. It was more of he answered my question and I ranted and that was it haha


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## JBroida (May 12, 2018)

swarth said:


> You debated with Jon?



why not? I'm not always right and discussion and debate are great things.


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## Xenif (May 12, 2018)

JBroida said:


> why not? I'm not always right and discussion and debate are great things.


+1
I wish more people think like that, imagine the dialogue we can open up


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## swarth (May 12, 2018)

JBroida said:


> why not? I'm not always right and discussion and debate are great things.



Well...exactly. Of the handful of conversations we have had, I would not characterize any as being adversarial. Nor have I found any of the OPs posts particularly edified.


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## ThEoRy (May 13, 2018)

Couple reasons. The knife's effectiveness against product obviously and the stone's cutting speed against the knife. Which in effect cuts down on sharpening mistakes. The longer you stand there sharpening the more opportunity you have to mess things up. If a 6k stone removes x amount of steel within 100 strokes while a 1k stone removes the same amount of steel within 30 strokes why stand there longer than you need to?

First though, yes you want to remove as little metal as you can to preserve the useful life of your knife. That's why after the knife is fully sharpened you should simply strop to revive the edge. When that is no longer effective then you go high grit stone then strop. Then next time it is no longer effective just try stropping again. Next time drop down to the high grit then strop. 

Eventually though this cycle will no longer be effective and you will have to drop to the medium stone to refresh the edge by adding some teeth. May even slightly lower the angle. More on that in a second. Then back to the high grit then strop and the cycle continues until eventually you need to cut in a fresh bevel at a slightly lower angle to retain proper geometry. 

As you sharpen (remove metal) the bevel moves higher up into a thicker section. So eventually you end up with a wedge. It could be a very sharp edge but it will not glide through food properly and it will not cut well. It just won't work properly. That's why you have to thin the bevel and eventually thin behind the bevel. To maintain or restore proper geometry.

I say all that to say this, you simply can not do this work effectively using only high grit stones. They just don't cut fast enough. You would be there forever, fatigue will set in then you will make mistakes then you will get upset with yourself then frustrated with the lack of results. It's an exercise in futility. It's self defeating. 

I want to spend the least amount of time at the stones as possible while removing as little steel as needed while at the same time maintaining proper geometry. Medium and low grit stones allow me to do that.

So my knives stay sharp as f*** AND cut properly and it doesn't take much effort to maintain as long as you stay on top of it.


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## panda (May 13, 2018)

theory i think this is your best post so far.


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## Benuser (May 13, 2018)

Couldn't agree more.
Practically, after some use I want to revive an edge by a few strokes only. I said a few! If I don't get immediately a smooth result, I go to a coarser one. Again, trying to re-establish the edge with only a few strokes. If that doesn't work, it's time for a full sharpening, starting with a medium-coarse or a medium stone far behind the edge.


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## TEWNCfarms (May 13, 2018)

ThEoRy said:


> Couple reasons. The knife's effectiveness against product obviously and the stone's cutting speed against the knife. Which in effect cuts down on sharpening mistakes. The longer you stand there sharpening the more opportunity you have to mess things up. If a 6k stone removes x amount of steel within 100 strokes while a 1k stone removes the same amount of steel within 30 strokes why stand there longer than you need to?
> 
> First though, yes you want to remove as little metal as you can to preserve the useful life of your knife. That's why after the knife is fully sharpened you should simply strop to revive the edge. When that is no longer effective then you go high grit stone then strop. Then next time it is no longer effective just try stropping again. Next time drop down to the high grit then strop.
> 
> ...



Awesome thanks!


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## TEWNCfarms (May 13, 2018)

JBroida said:


> why not? I'm not always right and discussion and debate are great things.



Youre a good man!


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## TEWNCfarms (May 13, 2018)

swarth said:


> Well...exactly. Of the handful of conversations we have had, I would not characterize any as being adversarial. Nor have I found any of the OPs posts particularly edified.



It wasnt necessarily adversarial, i just like to question the status quo. And a lot of times in something new I think I know a bunch and can reinvent the wheel and then reality strikes and I realize the wheel that was invented was the best way to do it


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## lemeneid (May 14, 2018)

You're overthinking polishing/sharpening.

I used to think that way, polish on 6000-8000 grit daily to maintain the edge until it became a pain in the ass to maintain this level of regimentation. You had to take the stone out, wait for it to soak, spend time to polish the knife, deburr it and strop it to maintain the edge. Instead, after taking advice from my knife supplier, all I do now is strop on rolled up newspaper or cork, depending on what is nearest to me. The edge remains silly sharp and drops through newspaper easily, I've yet to touch a stone ever since I learned this except when I first purchased the knife to put my desired edge on it.

Only reason I can think of for daily polishing is if you love that mirror edge.


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## TEWNCfarms (May 14, 2018)

lemeneid said:


> You're overthinking polishing/sharpening.
> 
> I used to think that way, polish on 6000-8000 grit daily to maintain the edge until it became a pain in the ass to maintain this level of regimentation. You had to take the stone out, wait for it to soak, spend time to polish the knife, deburr it and strop it to maintain the edge. Instead, after taking advice from my knife supplier, all I do now is strop on rolled up newspaper or cork, depending on what is nearest to me. The edge remains silly sharp and drops through newspaper easily, I've yet to touch a stone ever since I learned this except when I first purchased the knife to put my desired edge on it.
> 
> Only reason I can think of for daily polishing is if you love that mirror edge.



Do you use your knife professionally though? Thanks for saying all that, next I guess Ill just try and strop it and see if it brings it back


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## HRC_64 (May 14, 2018)

lemeneid said:


> I've yet to touch a stone ever since...



you cant write this kind of blanket comment 
without both a timeframe (since...when?)
and some measure of workload
(I did {this} much work...) etc.


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## lemeneid (May 14, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> Do you use your knife professionally though? Thanks for saying all that, next I guess Ill just try and strop it and see if it brings it back


Not a professional, but I cook daily for a family of 5.


HRC_64 said:


> you cant write this kind of blanket comment
> without both a timeframe (since...when?)
> and some measure of workload
> (I did {this} much work...) etc.


Daily home cooking for 5 people. Breakfast and dinner, my knives go through meat, veg and fruit mostly.
I've been doing this about 3 months now, the edge is still in great shape, got 3 blades, one in AS, AEB and SK5. The AS and AEB blades are still in good shape I'd say about 95-90% of day 1, the SK5 one not so much, it still slashes newspaper but the feel isn't the same as a day 1 edge, maybe about 70% or so. No microchipping that I can see or feel yet.

As for performance on food, it still handles carrots, tomatoes and onions nicely, but for delicate meats like sashimi, the SK5 blade doesn't draw through as nicely now, it feels "mushy" when draw cut. The AS and AEB blades still do this easily.

I think it boils down to the steel and edge retention really in terms of maintainence. At least for me since my knives all vary with HRC. 59-60 for SK5, 61 for AEB and 64 for AS.


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## swarth (May 15, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> And a lot of times in something new I think I know a bunch and can reinvent the wheel and then reality strikes and I realize the wheel that was invented was the best way to do it



I am guilty of this.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 20, 2018)

I openly admit to not being good enough of a sharpener to do anything than touchup on 6-8k only ... doing real sharpening with that will take a lot of strokes, and angle holding mistakes will sneak in....


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## Kippington (May 21, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I openly admit to not being good enough of a sharpener to do anything than touchup on 6-8k only ... doing real sharpening with that will take a lot of strokes, and angle holding mistakes will sneak in....



It's highly dependant how thick the knife is behind the edge, what angle you're sharpening to, and the wear resistance of the steel.
6-8k grit is low enough to reset the bevel on some knives within a couple of minutes, mere seconds if the abrasive is diamond or the like.

You wouldn't be able to keep doing it forever of course...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 25, 2018)

True, if you are keeping the angle as it is and everything - but I'd normally call that a touchup


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## TEWNCfarms (May 26, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> you cant write this kind of blanket comment
> without both a timeframe (since...when?)
> and some measure of workload
> (I did {this} much work...) etc.



Haha exactly!


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## TEWNCfarms (May 26, 2018)

lemeneid said:


> Not a professional, but I cook daily for a family of 5.
> 
> Daily home cooking for 5 people. Breakfast and dinner, my knives go through meat, veg and fruit mostly.
> I've been doing this about 3 months now, the edge is still in great shape, got 3 blades, one in AS, AEB and SK5. The AS and AEB blades are still in good shape I'd say about 95-90% of day 1, the SK5 one not so much, it still slashes newspaper but the feel isn't the same as a day 1 edge, maybe about 70% or so. No microchipping that I can see or feel yet.
> ...



Yeah Im cooking for over a thousand people on a busy Sunday, we go through 100lbs of onions and tomatoes Easily in a weekend sometimes more, thats a little more workload than a family of 5, no offense or anything just saying its different for my needs of sharpening


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## TEWNCfarms (May 26, 2018)

swarth said:


> I am guilty of this.



Haha dude Im the worst at it! I Always end up going back to whatever was originally told me after many of failures


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## K813zra (May 27, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> Yeah Im cooking for over a thousand people on a busy Sunday, we go through 100lbs of onions and tomatoes Easily in a weekend sometimes more, thats a little more workload than a family of 5, no offense or anything just saying its different for my needs of sharpening



You cook over one thousand people per Sunday? Way to go with population control. :tease:

Seriously though that is a good point. When I talk about edge retention I try to talk about hours of use so that pros can take it for what it is worth to them. That or pounds of produce. Example, I went through right around #50 pounds of produce last night before my Fujiwara FKH (SK4 @59) needed a touch up. Rather, it would no longer cleanly push cut a tomato without pressure. Hell, it would take some finesse with a slice. That was just when I felt like it needed a touch up. For tackling a bushel of tomatoes it probably would have needed a touch up before it got one. But for dicing onions it would have gone for another #50, easily. (Being not so thin behind the edge might help in terms of ultimate edge retention vs off the stones sharpness.)

I bring this up because of the post you quoted. My experience with AEB-L is that it does not retain that off the stones crisp edge for eviscerating tomatoes near as long as even a simple 10xx at 58-60 HRC. In fact it seems to lose that off the stones feel almost immediately (slight exaggeration) but keep at about 80(ish)% for a fair amount of time. I like my knives to be the other way around. Hold that off the stones feel and strop back to life easily rather than hold a utility edge for a long time. That could be due to the particular knives I have used being both very thin behind the edge and closer to the 60 hrc mark, so on the softer side and being mass produced. Never had any magical AEB-L from one of the known masters. However to this point I prefer Ginsan-ko or 19c27 as it holds bite, for me, better. 

Anyway, that should go to further your point in that two people have come to you with different experiences regarding at least very similar steels. SK-4 rather than 5 in my case.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 27, 2018)

@K813zra could SK4 be a widely understimated steel (See Yamakawa's comments on it, see the fact Fujiwara uses it...)?


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## panda (May 27, 2018)

K813zra you and i share a lot of preferences for sharpening


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## TEWNCfarms (May 28, 2018)

K813zra said:


> You cook over one thousand people per Sunday? Way to go with population control. :tease:
> 
> Seriously though that is a good point. When I talk about edge retention I try to talk about hours of use so that pros can take it for what it is worth to them. That or pounds of produce. Example, I went through right around #50 pounds of produce last night before my Fujiwara FKH (SK4 @59) needed a touch up. Rather, it would no longer cleanly push cut a tomato without pressure. Hell, it would take some finesse with a slice. That was just when I felt like it needed a touch up. For tackling a bushel of tomatoes it probably would have needed a touch up before it got one. But for dicing onions it would have gone for another #50, easily. (Being not so thin behind the edge might help in terms of ultimate edge retention vs off the stones sharpness.)
> 
> ...



Haha yeah i know Bill gates would be proud! But Yeah exactly and its not like it Has to be sharpened again, but I want it to fall through so I end up sharpening about twice a week,


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## K813zra (May 28, 2018)

panda said:


> K813zra you and i share a lot of preferences for sharpening



I noticed that the other day as well.


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## Benuser (May 28, 2018)

panda said:


> K813zra you and i share a lot of preferences for sharpening



+1


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## Benuser (May 28, 2018)

I should add that in my sharpening I try to enhance the steel's properties, rather than combat them. Steels as Gin-3, 19C27 and SLD with a lot of bite due to the grain / carbide size won't benefit from a very high polish.
Very fine grained simple carbons like C75 can be polished up to a very high level.


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