# Stone Session - Large Cut La Veinette - the stuff dreams are made of!



## Smashmasta (Nov 28, 2016)

Not even letting you catch your breath from yesterday's sessions. Here's another one for you.

*Ardennes La Veinette*

Holy. Moly.

I'm not even trying to make you guys jealous, but this stone - this beautiful, unassuming stone, is the stuff dreams are made of. I had Ardennes custom cut me a much larger size than they typically offer - it cost me a pretty penny, and TBO, if they had more in stock, I'd go buy 2 or 3 more after trying it. This is the bees knees, the cat's meow, the bomb dot com. You name it, this is it. I was a bit nervous splurging on this as while I have a fair bit of non-Jnat stones, none were this expensive, and I've heard some mixed reviews (none being negative, just that sometimes you get some better than others, just like Jnats), but I've been on a non-Jnat run lately (see my other reviews for instance) so I went for it. 

The thing about non-Jnat stones is that they're generally much smaller, particuarly thinner than Jnats. I was not very impressed when I opened it up in the mail, TBO. It was well cut and all, but it's so thin (~10mm), and Ardennes makes you feel like an overly indulgent child if you order anything over 50mm wide. But as you'll further read, this stone is now in my top 3 favorites. I was ab.so.lute.ly blown away. 

*Weights and Measures:* 200x60x10mm; weight NA with attached slate throwing it off.
*Appearance:* Pearlescent galaxies (see below) suspended in a pale custard pudding. 
*Smell and Texture:* Smells like slate tiles being installed in a new house. It's smooth, but not glassy smooth. There's a very faint softness to it that makes it pleasant and welcoming, unlike a cold hard Shobu awesado or something. It's like a down pillow on a very firm mattress. 

*Sharpening Experience:*
GLORIOUS! HEAVENLY! Like skating on clouds that give you warm hugs. 

:dance: :jumping3:

The most pleasant sharpening experience I've ever had. I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but this stone is unreal. My other favorite stone is my Shobu tomae - it's hard but with a faint softness to it, that magic Lv 3.5-4ish spot. It's EXTREMELY responsive; the feeling on the bevel seems amplified 10x into your fingertips - you know exactly what's going on and what you need to do and how to do it. Soooo approachable. Soooo fast (see below), swarf develops immediately, even on super aogami. Soooo creamy. It's not glassy, not even silky where it's almost hard to control; it's creamy, so, so creamy. Swarf starts immediately, and only gums up if you purposefully ignore it. It's not thirsty, but it takes a couple small sips. 
It came with a nagura, at least a BBW and a yellow coticule glued together, but maybe even some more La Veinette, but it didn't seem to have the same look to it as this larger Veinette. It doesn't really matter, because I didn't even use; I forgot all about it. Things were just so good as is. I'm interested to see how things change with it, though.

*- SS (K Sabatier): * So quick. This moves soft metal as if it were mear play dough. I could easily switch back and forth from an agressive sharp edge, to a wider more robust edge, both with fantastic results. With the wider angle, I was able to get refined teeth.
*- Shiro (Yoshikazu Ikeda shiro 2 Nakiri)*: Well it's steel from my favorite smith on this stone from heaven. Not much to say but pure bliss on a handle afterwards.
*- Aogami (Ohishi super aogami petty):* This is the fast non-jnat stone I have, and maybe even in the top 3 all stones. 4th pic below is ~3 seconds of swarf on super blue. Lovely edge that will keep for days. So fast.
*- Kataba (Shimanti aogami 2 deba):* Keeping up with the theme of awesomeness, the rough (went fast...) kasumi finish on tip half of the pic below took less than 45 seconds (those aren't scratches on the hagane, just swarf smudges). Near mirror on the hagane. Unreal. 

*Final Thoughts:* I don't believe in a higher power, but I feel that this stone is blessed :angel2:
I'm so lucky to have this. I pulled the trigger in the first place because of all the positive reviews I've read about the La Veinette, but was also a little anxious because some, while still good, were really hard and slow. This is just utterly perfect for me. I would order more if they had any in stock (you should email Ardeness if you're interested). I haven't tried this on my kamisori yet, but I plan to later this week. Like I said, I had Ardennes custom cut this to me, so it was expensive. The other Veinettes they had up for a couple days didn't go bigger than 150x40mm IIRC. I would pay double for this again (well maybe not, but you know what I mean). Worth every penny and than some. Handled every steel and wide bevels I tossed at it, and happily played with them. This stone gets along with all my steels. I look forward to the time I get to hang out with it.

*Pros:* Just about perfect in every way. I haven't used the nagura yet, but I bet I could get even more teeth with it, which would cover just about everything.

*Cons:* Expensive and rare. They supposedly can only mine it every couple years (kinda find that hard to believe), but at least infrequently enough to make them a PITA to find. And at these dimensions, get ready to eat ramen for several weeks. But that's it.

*TL;DR Buy One - Yes or No?*
I could die happy with just this stone...










Opalescent galaxies (shinier in-person)



Like 3 seconds on super blue



Beautiful luscious swarf. After a quick session with some shiro 3



~45 seconds. The streaks are slurry smudges, not rogue scratches.

Thanks for ready!


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## dwalker (Nov 28, 2016)

Do you think the 150 x 40 is large enough for knives ? I have never used a stone that small. Do you mind sharing howuch it cost for the custom size? Thanks for the great review.


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## Smashmasta (Nov 28, 2016)

dwalker said:


> Do you think the 150 x 40 is large enough for knives ? I have never used a stone that small. Do you mind sharing howuch it cost for the custom size? Thanks for the great review.



The shortest stone that I have that I'm comfortable with is my La Lavant which is 140mm long, but 70mm wide. The skinniest stone I have is also from Adrennes and is 60mm wide. While I've tried stones smaller than those, they become uncomfortable for me, personally. I generally have larger knives 210-240+, so a bigger stones is better. If you use smaller knives, it can actually be easier to sharpen on smaller stones. For me, 150x40 is too small. That's razor size, and even then, less than 2 inches wide, which is a typical razor length. 
I paid nearly $300 for it. So it's definitely one of my more expensive stones by weight (again, only 10mm thick). Adrennes is pretty helpful, but they sell out of things quickly being the last active coticule mine and all...


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## K813zra (Nov 28, 2016)

150x40 is too small for me too. My smallest natural is my Tajima at 197x56 and if it were any smaller I think it would lead to a less comfortable session.


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## dwalker (Nov 28, 2016)

I'm in the market for a higher end finisher and am looking to spend 300 - 400 usd. I am a home cook but I really like to sharpen and do it often not just for myself but for friends also. That being said, I think the thickness would be fine and last a long time. I am pretty new to natural stones and have been eying an ohira suita. Do you feel like this stone is comparible or easier to use? I guess I'm asking between the two, which would you choose? Or something different?


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## Smashmasta (Nov 28, 2016)

dwalker said:


> I'm in the market for a higher end finisher and am looking to spend 300 - 400 usd. I am a home cook but I really like to sharpen and do it often not just for myself but for friends also. That being said, I think the thickness would be fine and last a long time. I am pretty new to natural stones and have been eying an ohira suita. Do you feel like this stone is comparible or easier to use? I guess I'm asking between the two, which would you choose? Or something different?



I have an ohira suita, and this stone if faaaar easier to use. Don't get me wrong, I love my ohira, but this is way more responsive and approachable. Thing is, I don't know if Ardennes has any more in stock, and they can be difficult to find online. Ohira suita, as special as they are, are a bit easier to find.

As mentioned in the post, I also love shobu tomaes. They're cheaper than ohiras and a lot more approachable. I'd say most finishers in between the 3-4 range would be approachable. Don't get too caught up in mine names.


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## bennyprofane (Nov 28, 2016)

Great review, this stone sounds amazing!


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## Badgertooth (Nov 29, 2016)

That is most tempting. Now I crave 2 things from Belgium.

Westvleteren and La Veinette.


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## XooMG (Nov 29, 2016)

I have a small La Veinette and it does a wonderful job of making my knives less sharp. It may be partly due to size or softness, but I have pretty limited luck getting a good edge off it.


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## Smashmasta (Nov 29, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> That is most tempting. Now I crave 2 things from Belgium.
> 
> Westvleteren and La Veinette.



Well, make things easier for you - enjoy some Westvetern, and ummm, think on the Veinette... :spin chair:


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## Sharpchef (Nov 30, 2016)

Eat this!

sorry....... I love coticules too!











All vintage, the biggest one is just over 13inch. long.

Greets Sebastian.


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## Krassi (Nov 30, 2016)

Yep! i have been waiting for this "from the emperor of coticule"


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## Smashmasta (Nov 30, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> Eat this!
> 
> sorry....... I love coticules too!
> 
> ...



:surrendar:

You should do some more reviews! Although this site tends towards Jnats, I for one, would love to know more about coticules (I would also love some more money to buy them...). Drop me a PM if you're considering selling any...
Also, what do you even do with a 13 inch long coticule - sharpen your axe for shaving?


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## TheCaptain (Nov 30, 2016)

I gotta say this for you Smash - you write and well thought out AND interesting to read review...

(mumbles to herself as she goes to search for one of these stones)


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## Smashmasta (Nov 30, 2016)

TheCaptain said:


> I gotta say this for you Smash - you write and well thought out AND interesting to read review...
> 
> (mumbles to herself as she goes to search for one of these stones)



Thanks, Captain (great username, btw)! I've been working on the format to make it digestible and quickish to read (and write). I'm about to put an AO renge vs 'regular' renge ohira suita review up in an hour or so.


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## fatboylim (Nov 30, 2016)

Awesome write ups! I've been looking for a finishing stone after my Khao Men. I think I'm leaning towards this one!


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## Smashmasta (Nov 30, 2016)

fatboylim said:


> Awesome write ups! I've been looking for a finishing stone after my Khao Men. I think I'm leaning towards this one!



Thanks! If you can find one, and it's similar to mine, it will definitely be a good finisher. I actually had my Khao Men in mind (along with a few other ones, haha) when I got this. It won't be that big of a jump from the KM to the Veinette, but the KM can definitely take care of some pre-polishing and minor edge refinement. I find them to both be super smooth, so the combo will be very pleasant :doublethumbsup:

Let us know how it goes if you get one.


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## PalmRoyale (Dec 1, 2016)

XooMG said:


> I have a small La Veinette and it does a wonderful job of making my knives less sharp. It may be partly due to size or softness, but I have pretty limited luck getting a good edge off it.


If the stone creates a lot of slurry your edge is getting rounded over by the garnet crystals. As you're sharpening the edge is constantly being hit by the garnets and because the stone constantly exposes new garnets (and garnets don't break down) you'll never get a sharp edge.


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## bennyprofane (Dec 1, 2016)

Yes, I was told that with a Coticule, you sharpen with slurry if you want to remove a lot of steel but without slurry and just water to refine the edge, that's why some sharpen their razors under running water.


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## Smashmasta (Dec 1, 2016)

PalmRoyale said:


> If the stone creates a lot of slurry your edge is getting rounded over by the garnet crystals. As you're sharpening the edge is constantly being hit by the garnets and because the stone constantly exposes new garnets (and garnets don't break down) you'll never get a sharp edge.





bennyprofane said:


> Yes, I was told that with a Coticule, you sharpen with slurry if you want to remove a lot of steel but without slurry and just water to refine the edge, that's why some sharpen their razors under running water.



Interesting points from both of you. I didn't go too far along with my slurry, but I did notice and increase in teeth with the slurry (as is usually the case with most stones and increased slurry), so I suppose I was close to the threshold before it starts getting too aggressive and dulling the edge. I play around with this a bit. Thanks for the input.


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## Smashmasta (Dec 1, 2016)

As if you need another reason to try and get your hands on one of these Veinettes, I forgot to mention that it came with a what I'm pretty sure is a natural combo of BBW and yellow coticule - Sharpchef can probably chime in. Here are some quick pics. I didn't want to do any crazy reviews - it's just all the awesomeness I describes, but faster, and with a toothier option thanks to the BBW side of the nagura. I'm pretty sure, since they don't look the same (no pretty galaxies) that the other side if 'regular' yellow coticule.
The slurry from the BBW is just simply gorgeous - it mixes with the yellow from the La Veinette to make this fantastic siiiiilky smooth purple. And then once you start sharpening, the slurry turns and awesome blue from the steel. It's like mixing fun chemicals together (that don't blow up in your face). Cheers.


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## PalmRoyale (Dec 2, 2016)

The white line in the BBW side of your rubbing stone almost looks like a glue line. In fact, I'm pretty sure it is because of the even thickness and the colour. They probably glued the coticule/BBW combo to another piece of BBW to reinforce it.


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## fatboylim (Dec 2, 2016)

PalmRoyale said:


> The white line in the BBW side of your rubbing stone almost looks like a glue line. In fact, I'm pretty sure it is because of the even thickness and the colour. They probably glued the coticule/BBW combo to another piece of BBW to reinforce it.



Sounds ideal to have a combo nagura.


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## Sharpchef (Dec 2, 2016)

PalmRoyale said:


> The white line in the BBW side of your rubbing stone almost looks like a glue line. In fact, I'm pretty sure it is because of the even thickness and the colour. They probably glued the coticule/BBW combo to another piece of BBW to reinforce it.



This line is almost seen as a ID thing for La Veinette stones, just another small coticule Vein running thru La Veinette BBW counterparts( natural grown ones). So this is for sure a natural grown rubbing stone out of the La Veinette Vein.
But there are many coticules in my collection that are no La Veinette that show nearly the same line. No glue here for sure. But purchased from ardennes you can be sure it is the original one.

The back of the stones that is glued is nowadays always brazilian/portoguise slate, in the old days they glued it to the BBW (that was not for sale, just used for building walls or streets).
They only sold La Lorraine/pierre lorraine stones, the more purple red BBW stones that are faster then BBW stones.

I got some stones in my collection that are glued with other fancy stones (most likely some kind of slate that is extremely fine with oil)......

For really good Coticule Info read this:

http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020m/grinding_and_honing_part_4_belgian_whetstones.pdf

Greets Sebastian.


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## Smashmasta (Dec 2, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> This line is almost seen as a ID thing for La Veinette stones, just another small coticule Vein running thru La Veinette BBW counterparts( natural grown ones). So this is for sure a natural grown rubbing stone out of the La Veinette Vein.
> But there are many coticules in my collection that are no La Veinette that show nearly the same line. No glue here for sure. But purchased from ardennes you can be sure it is the original one.
> 
> The back of the stones that is glued is nowadays always brazilian/portoguise slate, in the old days they glued it to the BBW (that was not for sale, just used for building walls or streets).
> ...



I also agree that it's natural. I thought the line was a glue line, too, but upon further investigation, it's not the same thickness and is overrun on the sides by both layers in some parts ie, not everything is flat and balanced, as in cut by a machine flat. 

I've also been meaning to read that doc, it looks very informative.


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## fatboylim (Dec 2, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> For really good Coticule Info read this:
> 
> http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020m/grinding_and_honing_part_4_belgian_whetstones.pdf
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



70 pages of good reading! Thanks for the link!


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## Matus (Dec 3, 2016)

I am downloading it right now, thanks


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## Sharpchef (Dec 4, 2016)

Smashmasta said:


> Interesting points from both of you. I didn't go too far along with my slurry, but I did notice and increase in teeth with the slurry (as is usually the case with most stones and increased slurry), so I suppose I was close to the threshold before it starts getting too aggressive and dulling the edge. I play around with this a bit. Thanks for the input.



This is the main problem with coticules, unlike Jnats the Slurry makes the stone more aggressive and extremely courser! In the straight razor community we talk about grit 1000-2000 (with thick slurry), and while dripping some water on the stone too make it finer (milky slurry maybe at about 3000-5000 grit) going down too water only....... (8000 + grit)

Here you can read it (the Coticule.be forum is dead but still readable, lots of information there!)

www.coticule.be/dilucot-honing-method.html?.../PD...

Greets Sebastian.


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## bennyprofane (Dec 4, 2016)

Thats why I will be most likely only using my amazing Coticule for razors (after experimenting on knives a bit) because when you sharpen with slurry to have a toothy edge, its only a 1000-2000 finish(unlike jnat slurry, the slurry of the Coticule doesnt beak down), too coarse for my taste, and when you sharpen without slurry you get a finer edge but its more rounded on a microscopic level (perhaps sharpchef can elaborate on this) because of the sharpening particles, which makes the edge so nice and gentle for skin but also gentle towards tomatoes, so no teeth...


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## Sharpchef (Dec 5, 2016)

The shape of synthetic stones sharpening compounds is very sharp, JNats mostly Si²O is flat like a cookie, and coticule garnets are shaped like a soccerball....(football).

So we can reach the finest possible edge with Jnats, ask woodworkers........

With very small CBN or Diamond Compounds or ultra fine synthetic stones we get aggressive very sharp edges.
Ceramic hones (Spyderco UF, when lapped really fine work like Arkansas Stones, not like Sandpaper, they work like a file.
The finer the surface the finer the finish. So ultimate sharpness a really flat bevel.

With coticules we can also reach a nice polished edge, but because of the round shape of the garnets we never reach the full potential of the very last edge. So even with perfect HHT 5 sharpness the edge seems dull in the face (compared to a razor finish), and you will most likely not damage your skin with it. But it is still sharp enough to cut hair, but tomato skin can be a problem, at least without movement of the blade.

You may reach (not by Hand btw.) the perfekt sharpness for different tasks with different stones. If i only chop with a knife the edge has to be aggressive like high synth finish or perfekt like Arkansas/ceramic edges..... for a push/pull cut more teeth are needed so there will be a advantage using coarser synth. stones or Jnats (Suita....)

Coticule edges perfektly done are not usefull (speaking for the perfekt sharpness in the kitchen)But for touchups there are nearly the best, good quality necessary. And just use them with a tint of slurry, the edge will be superb for push/pullcut, but not as aggressive as a maybe Chosera 5k edge.

Greets Sebastian.


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## Krassi (Dec 5, 2016)

Amen 

..very interesting description, and makes lots of sense in terms of the behavior.
Always nice to learn something new.


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