# What brands do they actually use in japan?



## karloevaristo (Dec 27, 2014)

Been watching lots of youtube videos lately about chefs in japan and got me curious what brands do they actually use over there? i know it's kind of a hard question but anyone know if the ones we are able to get here are the ones that japanese chefs actually use or even prefer?


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## Asteger (Dec 27, 2014)

If you mean the artisanal knives, from what I can tell things are often 'local' and knives will often have been made nearby-ish, following old trusted connections, though not always. For example, cooks in the kansai region will know 1 or more of the known makers there, but not those of another region, etc, and I think people will often trust reputations and relationships and not feel the need to hunt for the elusive 'best'. However, if you think of average home cooks and users, definitely they'll just buy their stuff in big shops and dept stores and not worry much beyond that, and so there won't be any special 'brand' involved.


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## MrOli (Dec 27, 2014)

Asteger said:


> If you mean the artisanal knives, from what I can tell things are often 'local' and knives will often have been made nearby-ish, following old trusted connections, though not always. For example, cooks in the kansai region will know 1 or more of the known makers there, but not those of another region, etc, and I think people will often trust reputations and relationships and not feel the need to hunt for the elusive 'best'. However, if you think of average home cooks and users, definitely they'll just buy their stuff in big shops and dept stores and not worry much beyond that, and so there won't be any special 'brand' involved.



You mean they are not using Globals? :justkidding:

According to what I have seen a few chefs source knives from makers they trust and respect. The connection with the tool seems to be very important.


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## mhpr262 (Dec 27, 2014)

I have heard that, ironically, classic German knives are pretty popular in average Japanese households. Just because they are Japanese apparently doesn't mean they know more about knife sharpening and maintenance then the average american or European (meaning almost nothing) and they find their own less robust and more finicky Japanes knives a bit intimidating.


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## Asteger (Dec 27, 2014)

mhpr262 said:


> I have heard that, ironically, classic German knives are pretty popular in average Japanese households. Just because they are Japanese apparently doesn't mean they know more about knife sharpening and maintenance then the average american or European (meaning almost nothing) and they find their own less robust and more finicky Japanes knives a bit intimidating.



Definitely. German 'Made in Japan' knives seem to do well. Lots of santoku. In Japan, various foreign 'stuff' usually has some exotic appeal. The average Japanese would not relate to the interest shown in Japanese knives by the small number of non-Japanese here, and find it a kind of happy curiosity.


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## CoqaVin (Dec 27, 2014)

I have a Henckles knife, that is a toss around, or do whatever knife with, at this point in its life, it is marked "MADE IN JAPAN" on the blade


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## GetInChopper (Dec 27, 2014)

I used to live Okinawa, Japan. Most households buy whatever knife they can from the store, similar to America. At the chef level though, Asteger hit it pretty much on the bulls-eye. Most chefs either know someone that makes knives, and this person provided knives to their father, grandfather, friend, etc. It is certainly regional. Also, many chefs will hand down their knife/knives to their apprentice. I know one particular chef whose knives were given to him by his sensei. According to him (and other people I know) these knives are easily worth $15k-20k. I believe him.


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## Asteger (Dec 27, 2014)

Also kind of fun to see how they'll use and use their knives until they've been sharpened down to a sliver of their former selves, and then return to the same maker they bought from 20 years before. And, yes, the custom of chefs gifting a honyaki yanagiba or something to apprentices at some point, when hitting a certain status I guess, seems pretty common. (One guy told me for him it was after 9 years.) It's not a big thing and not relevant to average Japanese of course, but still interesting how those involved have this culture and customs. 

Not many around here seem too interested in natural stones, though I certainly am :groucho:. Finishers have basically always come from Kyoto, but in the past (and maybe still a bit now) when it came to medium and coarser stones the story was a bit different. Most areas of Japan would have their locally known stones, with some well known and some less, in a similar way to how knife makers and styles are still kind of regional in Japan. People would use their local stone and that's probably what they'd know. From what I can tell, to this day stones that became more well-known seem to have a 'general' name but also a more 'local' or traditional name. Very difficult to suss all this stuff out, though.


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## Zwiefel (Dec 27, 2014)

Asteger said:


> The average Japanese would not relate to the interest shown in Japanese knives by the small number of non-Japanese here, and find it a kind of happy curiosity.



This is exactly my experience with the few Japanese I know. More than anything, I think it was hearing those words coming out of an Americans mouth.


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## Asteger (Dec 27, 2014)

Zwiefel said:


> More than anything, I think it was hearing those words coming out of an Americans mouth.



Or even a non-American! (And non-Japanese)


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## gic (Dec 27, 2014)

Yep was in an insanely fancy knife shop in Tokyo called Kiya that is one of Shigefusa's main retail outlet I believe and while they had a reasonably selection of other artisanal knives, but they had a larger space devoted to German and Victorinox knives than J-Knives!

(Amazing place I got my Kitaj Shig there but I also bought a couple of nail clippers, before they sold me the clippers they put the final edge on them by hand...)


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## glestain (Dec 27, 2014)

Lol


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## ecchef (Dec 27, 2014)

I concur with everything that's been stated so far. When I first starting dating me Wife, she was enormously proud of her Henckels 4 Stars & her Kiya 'go to' santoku, all sharpened on a pull-through ceramic wheel thing. And everybody else in her circle was of the same mindset. I was kinda surprised.
She almost stopped dating me when I finally revealed my arsenal; thought I was nuts. Years later, she just comes to accept it. I finally got her to break down and get a Masamoto to replace the Kiya. And I hid the ceramic wheel thing. 

Seems like the Japanese are pretty practical about their knives. If it cuts, that's all it needs to do. Even watching the Japanese Food Channel, about the best you'll see is a Misono UX-10. Lots of Globals, Euro, and run of the mill domestic stainless stuff. 

On the other hand, the pros do have their favorite brands/shops and are pretty loyal to them. And they'll wear a knife down to a sliver before it's retired.


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## kpnv (Dec 28, 2014)

all the japanese guys in my kitchen definitely do not have much idea about some of the stuff that's quite popular here.

i think 6 or 7 people have a ginga 210mm petty. it's a super line knife for sure.
otherwise i've seen knives from tsubaya, misono, tojiro, aritsugu, masamoto, sugimoto, sakai ichimonji, nenox, ginga, takeda, konosuke.


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## karloevaristo (Dec 28, 2014)

i'm also interested to find out what the master sushi chefs over there are using


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## Asteger (Dec 28, 2014)

karloevaristo said:


> i'm also interested to find out what the master sushi chefs over there are using



Again, just as we said above, they'll be using the knives they've used for years, or if they're younger than they'll probably be using the same as their chefs do or did, and often ones that have been gifted to them. If you ask, they'll know their favoured maker and maybe some others from the same region, but there won't be a lot of searching for 'the best' from other parts of the country as I don't think they think in those terms or expect there to be any way of finding this out. For example, I once spoke with a chef from Kikunoi in Kyoto. His honyaki yanagiba was given to him by his chef after he'd been there several years (doh, now I forget the maker). I mentioned names of makers I knew in Sakai, and he knew a few of them but their knives weren't used in his kitchen. When I mentioned makers in faraway Sanjo, for example, he'd never heard of them and he seemed intrigued but also reacted as though it was a bit bizarre that I would know some of this and/or think it was relevant, probably in part because the knives were from hundreds of km away.


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## mhpr262 (Dec 28, 2014)

Is there even a single, born-and-bred Japanese member on this board?


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## Lefty (Dec 28, 2014)

There were a couple. I haven't seem them around in a while, though.


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## Lefty (Dec 28, 2014)

Asteger said:


> If you mean the artisanal knives, from what I can tell things are often 'local' and knives will often have been made nearby-ish, following old trusted connections, though not always.



I like this way of thinking, very much. I am finding that I started Globally, and am now narrowing my knives down to those made by guys that I consider friends. The knives I own and actually use are made by Pierre, Butch, Rader, Luke Snyder and David Van Wyk, and Andy Billipp. All of whom I can phone up any day of the week for a chat, send stupid email jokes to, talk sports with, and even more serious matters such as our new house, or how the family is doing. The fact that these guys all make world-class knives doesn't hurt either. 

This whole knife habit we all have is an interesting one, but what it all boils down to, at the end of the day is; do you own, or have you found a knife that makes you love the process of making food more than You already did? At the root of this hobby is one common factor, and it isn't solely using something sharp, but rather making something delicious that can nourish us/our families, and making it the most enjoyable experience possible through the use of knives that we love.


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## larrybard (Dec 28, 2014)

Very well stated; thank you for posting that.


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## Noodle Soup (Dec 28, 2014)

A little off topic but when I was in Chengdu China last spring my instructor told me he had a friend cooking in a Chinese restaurant in Japan. The friend had been telling him about the Japanese made cleavers and how great the steel was in them. But the instructor couldn't understand how any cleaver's performance could be worth several hundred dollars. His own knife came from the local market about 2 blocks from the school and cost around $7.00. He used your basic Chinese Silicon carbide benchstone to resharpen it when need. I brought one of the cleavers home as a souvenir.


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## Asteger (Dec 28, 2014)

Noodle Soup said:


> ... couldn't understand how any cleaver's performance could be worth several hundred dollars.QUOTE]
> 
> Haha, I think 99.9% of people out there would probably agree, with most of the remaining 0.1% lurking on this forum.


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## Casaluz (Dec 30, 2014)

I loved lefty's thoughts on why choosing and caring for these knives we like so much... I echo his thoughts, in the end is about using them to put lovein the food we prepare for others close to our heart


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## daveb (Dec 30, 2014)

Asteger said:


> Noodle Soup said:
> 
> 
> > ... couldn't understand how any cleaver's performance could be worth several hundred dollars.QUOTE]
> ...


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## XooMG (Dec 30, 2014)

I can sympathize with the Chinese instructor...or maybe that's just because I'm able to get cleavers in the $20-30 range that have good steel and geometry. Every time I see a Ginga or other decent looking Japanese cleaver pop up for sale, I think about it but cannot really imagine it being a massive upgrade over what I've got locally, given the 1000% price difference.


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## echerub (Dec 30, 2014)

I had a bear of a time sharpening the cleavers for my two grandmas-in-law when I was over in China just a little while back. Both had very run-of-the-mill supermarket cleavers. One had two natural stones and the other had a very soft, grainy artificial stone. It took me quite some time to sharpen the cleavers, but afterwards everyone who used them was really happy to actually have sharp edges.

I think folks appreciate sharp edges on their knives, but they might not appreciate that (a) different knives actually feel different, and (b) better steels and stones keep edges sharp longer and easier.

But... 10x the cost? You need to be pretty keen on knives to justify that. Multiple knives of the same type at 10x the cost each? You need to be downright knutty to justify that


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## Zwiefel (Dec 30, 2014)

echerub said:


> Multiple knives of the same type at 10x the cost each? You need to be downright knutty to justify that



Is this a quote from a recent therapy session?

:rofl2:


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## echerub (Dec 30, 2014)

It's a self-assessment


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## Noodle Soup (Dec 30, 2014)

What is the "high priced premium" model certainly varies a lot with the country. Where I was in China, the standard every day, good enough for most pros models ran between maybe $7 and $12 dollar US. The really high end knife snob models ran between $15 and $25. I brought both home but I can't tell all that much difference in real performance in the kitchen.


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## Asteger (Dec 30, 2014)

daveb said:


> Asteger said:
> 
> 
> > Noodle Soup said:
> ...



:tongue:


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## LKH9 (Dec 31, 2014)

Noodle Soup said:


> A little off topic but when I was in Chengdu China last spring my instructor told me he had a friend cooking in a Chinese restaurant in Japan. The friend had been telling him about the Japanese made cleavers and how great the steel was in them. But the instructor couldn't understand how any cleaver's performance could be worth several hundred dollars. His own knife came from the local market about 2 blocks from the school and cost around $7.00. He used your basic Chinese Silicon carbide benchstone to resharpen it when need. I brought one of the cleavers home as a souvenir.



I've always wondered how well Chinese forged cleavers fare against Japanese-made versions. They were supposed to cleave through thick bones without splintering it, I mean those pork-cleavers, and those stuff can even chop down a small tree without breaking/chipping. Plus you can't use that at home, it will split your cutting board very quickly, you need a tree stump or a specially thick board. And the price is not that expensive for its performance and size, so I wonder...


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## jaybett (Dec 31, 2014)

Noodle Soup said:


> A little off topic but when I was in Chengdu China last spring my instructor told me he had a friend cooking in a Chinese restaurant in Japan. The friend had been telling him about the Japanese made cleavers and how great the steel was in them. But the instructor couldn't understand how any cleaver's performance could be worth several hundred dollars. His own knife came from the local market about 2 blocks from the school and cost around $7.00. He used your basic Chinese Silicon carbide benchstone to resharpen it when need. I brought one of the cleavers home as a souvenir.



Also Chef Tony can't imagine why anyone would spend more then $19.99, because all you need are a set of Miracle Blades.


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## mkriggen (Jan 2, 2015)

Man, why you all gotta be diss'n on Chef Tony? The 'ball grip' on the "Rock n chop"...pure genius! Next you'll be picking on RayRay's copper butt again:disdain: 

Be well,
Mikey


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## ecchef (Jan 2, 2015)

The 'ball grip' 007 style :biggrin:


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## mkriggen (Jan 2, 2015)

ecchef said:


> The 'ball grip' 007 style :biggrin:
> View attachment 25896



Really Dave...really? I throw you the 'ball grip', and 'RayRay's copper butt', and you go for the 'ball grip'?unish:


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## pkjames (Jan 2, 2015)

Off topic as well. I recently sharpened a really old dazu (near chengdu in Sichuan, China) carbon cleaver at my friend's place. I am sure it would cost more than $15 but to my surprise, the profile is really thin, pretty much like a sugimoto 6. After a bit of thinning (lack of maintanence for years), it was scary sharp and cuts really well. Very interesting experience!


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 2, 2015)

I saw a show where Chinese persons were buying high end Japanese rice cookers because they are better than any made in China. 

I have checked out what the different chefs use in Chinatown here. Mostly Chinese carbon cleavers. Good bang for the buck. Guys that are cutting Duck, Chicken, Char Sui Pork all day use medium heavy carbons.

Japanese are not the only one's to wear down favorite knives to slivers:O If you want a quality stainless cleaver go Japanese & pay the extra $$


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## LKH9 (Jan 2, 2015)

According to my elderly friend here, her late relative witness how her cleaver was forged by the old chinese blacksmith. She said that blacksmith added a kind of powder into the water before quenching, not sure if that really helps. I'm really curious about that. That smith is already dead, otherwise I will request custom made knives from him. Whenever she talks about her cleaver, I always remind her to give it to me when it's not wanted. It's now rusty, I'm always ready to restore that antique. A cleaver that chopped down a tree means something.


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## osakajoe (Jan 3, 2015)

I live in Japan and cater to Japanese for knives from selling to sharpening. I know what they use. It all depends on who they are. Old, young, sushi chef, japanese chef, meat guys, izakayas, housewifes, students etc. 

Any big brand promoted outside of Japan like shun or global, you rarely see in Japan. Like most people uneducated about knives, most just use your cheap stainless steel knives you buy at the supermarket or hardware store. 

Most others get their knives from knife stores that get their knives from Sakai, Seki, or one of the other knife producing areas. 

You have to be more specific. Here in osaka I sharpen a lot of knives from chefs who get their knives from doguyasuji where ichimonji knives and the Takayuki brand are heavily promoted.


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## leiatlarge (Jan 3, 2015)

I live near Chinatown here in NYC and went looking at the cleavers used by most of the chefs here in the restaurants. The BBQ shops normally use a heavy meat cleaver and they are mostly crushing bone with these things. Large swings and hard hits. These knives have ridiculously thick spines but are in the same shape as the vegi choppers. 

I went through a lot of restaurant supply shops and the shop owners tell me the professionals generally use a a large one size fit all knife (usually the #2 size) that has a fairly thick spin ~5mm and pretty heavy. Most chefs learned on one knife in China, a heavy Chinese cleaver that can dice chicken bone but also cut vegetables so that tends to get used a lot. Otherwise, while living in China, most small restaurants and chefs just grab the a cheap knife they hone regularly on what looks like 300-500 grit stones. I'm sure the high-end Chinese restaurants use more expensive equipment.


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## LKH9 (Jan 3, 2015)

Even the most expensive Chinese equipment won't be as expensive as the Japanese counterpart, it's like 10x difference. For the Chinese, it's merely a tool. Japanese see it as an art as well, they are all extremely finely crafted, well polished, but I'm just curious about how tough they are. Japanese specialized in cutting fish, while the Chinese butchered pigs. Each has its own expertise.

Cutting clean through a bone without splintering is the quality of these cleavers.


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