# David Chang and Starbucks...



## spoiledbroth

Dunno if anyone has been following this online... Supposedly earlier this month Starbucks started making a latte using momofuku cereal milk... and as of today David Chang is firing shots over their introduction of a new product, Bantam stuffed bagels (Shark Tank!)...

David Chang is super pissed. Now, I'm not the biggest fan of Chang in general, but I could see I suppose how you might be pissed at them "biting your style" as it were...

On the other hand, a stuffed bagel is essentially a Jewish bialy -- I'm also pretty sure stuffed bagels have been available in the frozen food aisle long before Chang even owned a business, and of course if you were unlucky enough to grow up in the last 40-50 years you yourself have made cereal milk (momofuku recipe book calls for cornflakes IIRC).

I was wondering if anyone was following this and what their opinions are... Personally I think emulation is the sincerest form of flattery...

Though I didn't see david chang throw a hissy fit when everyone in new york started selling fried chicken sandwiches a few months back... It's really the way the industry works. Very little is new under the sun.


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## TheDispossessed

Well,
I worked for DC. 
I think nearly everything that has come out of milk bar is disgusting. Sweet beyond sweet junk food bonanza, not for me. 
So the bagel bomb rip-off?
I don't care, or have any sympathy for a man who built an empire on very mediocre but very expensive ramen and $10 pork buns with canned MSG filled hoisin slathered all over them. 
DC isn't a bad dude, surely. Working for him did a lot for me and I'm grateful but eh, who cares at this point.


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## spoiledbroth

Shots fired! I can understand what you are saying though. I have never eaten at any momo group restaurants, so it's hard for me to really comment on the food, but there does seem to be quite a bit of "hype" surrounding the guy in media.


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## TheDispossessed

Ok so allow me at least one more jaded commentary.
DC opened the "Momofuku Culinary Lab" several years ago (maybe 5 or so) in the old Momo office space near the restaurants. The mission was to innovate, through an an academic and experimental process and create ways to make food more delicious. What has this place, which is still running (in a different space) generated???

- Pork Bushi, went nowhere, was never used in Momo's ramen or anyone else's for that matter. Kastsuobushi isn't even used in their ramen. As mentioned earlier, the Momo ramen is not well, that good.

- 'Hozon' nothing more than miso paste made with non traditional ingredients. It's been done times over in japan and america. South River Miso for one (Maine) has had azuki and chickpea miso on the shelves of health food stores across the country for decades. It (hozon) occasionally gets implemented in some momo dishes.

- Ssam sauce. This one gets me, and most relates to this conversation about why this guy can't be too upset about getting ripped off. It's gochujang (korean chili paste) and basically water, maybe some vinegar and sugar. Ssam sauce = ZERO INNOVATION 100% MARKETING. you can buy a tub of gochujang at any korean grocery for less than $5 and that's how its always been. this watered down Momo branded crap I'm sure runs over $10 for a diluted little bottle.

So yeah, The lab basically 'created' nothing worthwhile over the years. Momofuku as a whole has not succeeded because they innovate but because they replicate in a sexy way. So get over it DC.


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## WildBoar

After hearing how he affected Son's life in such a neagtive and significant way I will admit I am not exactly in his corner. I haven't been to his place in Washington, DC yet, but if I go it will be because 420layers is there, and not because of the big boss. If I had to pick a Change place here in DC it would be Peter Chang's new restaurant.

If it weren't for the fact that Matt works for him, DC would be off my radar. Matt is a stand-up guy and the food he prepared at Momofuko and brought to the ECG a couple years back was excellent; so I at least have to give DC credit for having someone like Matt keeping one of his places in proper order.


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## brainsausage

A buddy of mine worked for him about 6-7 years back. Said buddy is one of the best cooks/chefs I've worked with. He's got a solid head on his shoulders, has run many restaurants, and knows how the things tick. His appraisal of Chang ran something like this: Busy as **** weekend nights Chang would roll in at the peak hours ****-faced and stoned, blunder onto the line, grab random projects from said line cook in the midst of working on them and ham-fistedly attempt to do... something. Then saunter off leaving X amount of cooks to try and pick up the pieces in his wake. He's another Bourdain; charismatic, outspoken, somewhat knowledgeable... but terrible in a kitchen.


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## TheDispossessed

brainsausage said:


> He's another Bourdain; charismatic, outspoken, somewhat knowledgeable... but terrible in a kitchen.



I'd say they're quite different. They're both famous, they cooked in NYC, they pal around, and they're apparently not the best cooks, oh and they're both damn smart and well read. That aside...Bourdain I have a lot of respect for, his TV personality sometimes a little annoying, he has made a real serious effort to make intelligent television. Some of his shows are just sorta eat around, drink around boring but many of them provide a very sensitive and complex take on place considering it's history, tradition and current political and socioeconomic situation. He didn't end up on CNN just for ratings (not that i think CNN is a god news organization at all).


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## brainsausage

TheDispossessed said:


> I'd say they're quite different. They're both famous, they cooked in NYC, they pal around, and they're apparently not the best cooks, oh and they're both damn smart and well read. That aside...Bourdain I have a lot of respect for, his TV personality sometimes a little annoying, he has made a real serious effort to make intelligent television. Some of his shows are just sorta eat around, drink around boring but many of them provide a very sensitive and complex take on place considering it's history, tradition and current political and socioeconomic situation. He didn't end up on CNN just for ratings (not that i think CNN is a god news organization at all).



I agree. He was just the closest approximation in my head. I find Bourdain to be much more compelling to watch, and read(now that he's found his voice). Bourdain seems like he'd be a fun guy to drink, eat, and talk with. Chang seems like he'd be a fun guy to get in trouble with.


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## TheDispossessed

brainsausage said:


> Chang seems like he'd be a fun guy to get in trouble with.


A fun guy to work for as well, provided he is not around. The rule was just put your head down when DC rolled in. It was never pleasant.


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## spoiledbroth

WildBoar said:


> After hearing how he affected Son's life in such a neagtive and significant way I will admit I am not exactly in his corner. I haven't been to his place in Washington, DC yet, but if I go it will be because 420layers is there, and not because of the big boss. If I had to pick a Change place here in DC it would be Peter Chang's new restaurant.
> 
> If it weren't for the fact that Matt works for him, DC would be off my radar. Matt is a stand-up guy and the food he prepared at Momofuko and brought to the ECG a couple years back was excellent; so I at least have to give DC credit for having someone like Matt keeping one of his places in proper order.


who is Son? if it is who I think it is I am actually really curious to know about this... though I feel it may be too personal. Via pm?


Anyway really interesting feedback here. Again I am not really a DC fan per se, though I suppose I respect anyone on a business level who pushes that kind of food for the price they do. 

I don't think the comparison between Bourdain and Chang is legitimate, they are apples and oranges. I actually really like Lucky Peach but it's not for any of the few articles DC writes. I really liked kitchen confidential. I have never not liked any of bourdains various shows and have never really needed to bash him for not being a superstar cook because it's really not what he's about. He cooked for a living, and when something better came along he jumped on it. Nothing wrong with that, but it certainly leaves me with no mistaken impression about how passionate he was about _cooking_. His love of eating and appreciation for food and culture is another, albeit very important, matter entirely.


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## brainsausage

spoiledbroth said:


> who is Son? if it is who I think it is I am actually really curious to know about this... though I feel it may be too personal. Via pm?
> 
> 
> Anyway really interesting feedback here. Again I am not really a DC fan per se, though I suppose I respect anyone on a business level who pushes that kind of food for the price they do.
> 
> I don't think the comparison between Bourdain and Chang is legitimate, they are apples and oranges. I actually really like Lucky Peach but it's not for any of the few articles DC writes. I really liked kitchen confidential. I have never not liked any of bourdains various shows and have never really needed to bash him for not being a superstar cook because it's really not what he's about. He cooked for a living, and when something better came along he jumped on it. Nothing wrong with that, but it certainly leaves me with no mistaken impression about how passionate he was about _cooking_. His love of eating and appreciation for food and culture is another, albeit very important, matter entirely.



I'm with you up and to the point that Chang is moving more and more into the same forum as Bourdain regarding his public persona. Writing, themed shows, and no longer cooking. I'm not begrudging either one for it. And Bourdain has definitely done so in much more graceful manner.


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## Chuckles

Cereal milk has already jumped the shark. 

http://www.shopmilkbar.com/shipping/shop/cereal-milk-mix/

It has always struck me as a bizarre signature technique.


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## sachem allison

I hate that guy on a personal and professional level. I should say more disappointed than hate. He sucks ?&%$!


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## 420layersofdank

As someone who works for David Chang, I can honestly say that he is a very passionate chef, maybe the most intense person I have ever worked for.
As for the whole Starbucks debacle, I think that it may have been a bit of an over reaction but at the same time, it's Starbucks; straight garbage. I can honestly say that I hate Starbucks. 

Note: I am currently in SF staging at statebird provisions,Californios, and benu. When I return home to DC in a couple weeks,I will be starting at Roses Luxury. I decided to leave momofuku for many reasons but none in which were in any way related to David Chang. I've got an immense amount if respect for the man and I dont doubt that he had made mistakes whether it was chewing a cook out or showing up wasted during peak hours. I think we can all say that we made a fool out of ourselves when alcohol was in the picture at least one time in our life.
That shouldn't define you as a shi&%ty chef or person but someone who is just like both you and me. Noones perfect . 

Btw, I still think Starbucks is equivalent to Wal-Mart, if not worse.
Such horrible and overpriced coffee.sigh


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## Bill13

420layersofdank said:


> As someone who works for David Chang, I can honestly say that he is a very passionate chef, maybe the most intense person I have ever worked for.
> As for the whole Starbucks debacle, I think that it may have been a bit of an over reaction but at the same time, it's Starbucks; straight garbage. I can honestly say that I hate Starbucks.
> 
> Note: I am currently in SF staging at statebird provisions,Californios, and benu. When I return home to DC in a couple weeks,I will be starting at Roses Luxury. I decided to leave momofuku for many reasons but none in which were in any way related to David Chang. I've got an immense amount if respect for the man and I dont doubt that he had made mistakes whether it was chewing a cook out or showing up wasted during peak hours. I think we can all say that we made a fool out of ourselves when alcohol was in the picture at least one time in our life.
> That shouldn't define you as a shi&%ty chef or person but someone who is just like both you and me. Noones perfect .
> 
> Btw, I still think Starbucks is equivalent to Wal-Mart, if not worse.
> Such horrible and overpriced coffee.sigh



Wow, Rose's Luxury:doublethumbsup: that sounds like a great place. Maybe now I'll have to bite the bullet and wait in line. Haven't done so yet because I wasn't sure if it was being over hyped.


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## TheDispossessed

Let me apologize for getting a little negative here. I stand by what I said, but I'll admit i go off the rails here and there and it's not super cool to color other people's impressions of someone else. I'm grateful for the experience I had at Momofuku and remain proud of that experience today. One of the things DC is consistently good at is attracting and keeping very skilled chefs like Tien Ho, Matt Rudy, Sean Gray, Peter Serpico, Sean Heller, etc. 
Anyone in the business here knows 99% of the time a famous restaurant empire makes great food because of all the CDCs so respect to them.
Cheers!

Also, yes as a coffee snob starbucks is dreadful but i'll be the first to queue up in an airport where there's nothing better...


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## bkultra

TheDispossessed said:


> Also, yes as a coffee snob starbucks is dreadful but i'll be the first to queue up in an airport where there's nothing better...



From one coffee snob to another... There is always a McDonald's at the airport, and their coffee is better than *$


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## 420layersofdank

bkultra said:


> From one coffee snob to another... There is always a McDonald's at the airport, and their coffee is better than *$



and hash browns!!!!!!!


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## spoiledbroth

http://luckypeach.com/the-state-of-ramen-david-chang/

Anyone see this? The guy who makes a recipe for ramen fried chicken now declares ramen dead and is disgusted by the thought of a ramen burrito. -_-


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## ecchef

Disclaimer: this is only my opinion; I'm _not_ a ramen expert. 
I read the article; I think he's talking out his ass. In the past 5 years I haven't seen a Japanese renaissance in ramen because it never went to the ludicrous extremes of those NY/LA abominations. It's a cheap, fast meal for salarymen & students and a way to sober up after a night out. 
Chang's the Jordan Belfort of culinary.


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## daveb

Don't know Belfort. Is he a drunk ahole?


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## panda

i love ramen, even sh1tty ramen. starbucks coffee is disgusting however.


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## Mucho Bocho

panda said:


> i love ramen, even sh1tty ramen. starbucks coffee is disgusting however.



Your a pro chef that's admitted to enjoying chef boyardee spaghettio's cold out of a can. Of course you like American style Ramen. HA


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## Mrmnms

my memory may be bad, I recall DC made some pretty big promises to Son, strung him along, and left him out to dry. Blasphemy, i have been known to drink Starbucks, $1.95 a cup. Gotta live a little.


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## bkultra

If drinking Starbucks is living, I've never wanted to be more dead. Perhaps burned to death, like their coffee.


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## chinacats

If you like decent coffee and you're stuck @ Starbucks, you should order an americano--I order mine a bit light on the h2o.


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## Bill13

Mrmnms said:


> my memory may be bad, I recall DC made some pretty big promises to Son, strung him along, and left him out to dry. Blasphemy, i have been known to drink Starbucks, $1.95 a cup. Gotta live a little.



That's what I remember too, it was a detailed to the point post. Never eating at a DC place after reading that, to many other good options for the rare times we go out.


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## WildBoar

Son moved across country to take a job in NYC for him, and got a call after he landed telling him they changed their mind and were giving the job to someone else. Son's been in NYC since.


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## spoiledbroth

that's ****** up... I am not really a fanboy type of person, so I hope nobody thinks I like Chang... I hope Son is ok with you sharing that I had never heard what happened before. 

:eyebrow:


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## brainsausage

spoiledbroth said:


> that's ****** up... I am not really a fanboy type of person, so I hope nobody thinks I like Chang... I hope Son is ok with you sharing that I had never heard what happened before.
> 
> :eyebrow:



There's a thread on the forum somewhere's posted by Son regarding all of this. I'm terrible at google-fu, otherwise I'd post a link.


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## MontezumaBoy

brainsausage said:


> There's a thread on the forum somewhere's posted by Son regarding all of this. I'm terrible at google-fu, otherwise I'd post a link.



http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/10616-The-Mind-of-a-Chef/page2

Son - I apologize up front for not asking you if you are cool with me re-posting this as I just think people need to know it. I don't go to DC places because of your insight ... kinda silly to some but that is how I role ... F' it! 

TjA


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## brainsausage

MontezumaBoy said:


> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/10616-The-Mind-of-a-Chef/page2
> 
> Son - I apologize up front for not asking you if you are cool with me re-posting this as I just think people need to know it. I don't go to DC places because of your insight ... kinda silly to some but that is how I role ... F' it!
> 
> TjA



I think it's safe to say from his prior post in this thread that Son is ok with this Thanks for doing the legwork for me btw


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## Duckfat

TheDispossessed said:


> Also, yes as a coffee snob starbucks is dreadful but i'll be the first to queue up in an airport where there's nothing better...



As much as I hate to admit it I often find myself there when traveling as well. It's a shame we have come to a point of such mediocrity. I die a little each time I shop there but I make up for it by leaving the remnants at McD's. Speaking of which I'm pretty sure the last time I was in there DC's phone # was on the wall over the appropriate repository for his food.


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