# What's your favorite progression for thinning?



## mark76 (Sep 22, 2015)

The title basically says it all. What is your favorite progression for thinning (and not "just" sharpening).

I usually use an Atoma 140 to start with, 'cause otherwise it takes too long. I then go to a Shapton 220. (I could have used the Shapton from the start, but the Atoma is faster. But then again, the Atoma can leave deep scratches.)

What's your progression?


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## Asteger (Sep 22, 2015)

For me, similar start: Atoma too, any of my coarse stones (eg. Jns, Chosera) then switch to naturals, if not another sub-1k synth before that


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## RefGent (Sep 22, 2015)

I've kind of been wondering, since the diamond leaves such deep scratches in these situations, to take the time to remove the scratches, does it really make the diamond more time efficient than a comparable coarse grit that doesn't leave scratches as deep?

I usually use a DMT 220x for thinning or heavy use in general, but my next stone up is 400x and takes me a while to remove the DMT scratches completely. I know I could settle for less polish and move on from the 400 sooner, but sometimes the fun is in the finish, not just the sharpness.


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## dands (Sep 22, 2015)

RefGent said:


> I've kind of been wondering, since the diamond leaves such deep scratches in these situations, to take the time to remove the scratches, does it really make the diamond more time efficient than a comparable coarse grit that doesn't leave scratches as deep?
> 
> I usually use a DMT 220x for thinning or heavy use in general, but my next stone up is 400x and takes me a while to remove the DMT scratches completely. I know I could settle for less polish and move on from the 400 sooner, but sometimes the fun is in the finish, not just the sharpness.



You know, whenever I come across threads about thinning, a lot of the real experts (cough Jon) say that to truly "thin" a knife down (not just thinning behind the edge), you'd be looking at hours spent on just lower grit stones alone. I'm assuming the knife needs a bit of work if you're looking to thin down the entire blade. Have you contacted any local professionals about just thinning the knife down for you maybe on their wheels?


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## Cashn (Sep 22, 2015)

I've recently put in about 8 or more hours on an Atoma 140 trying to thin out the arrowhead on a new takeda gyuto. First knife I've really spent a serious chunk of time thinning on. I worked the takeda on my Omura for a while just to see if it could take out the Atoma scratches and it seems like it does a very good job of that. So I will probably try and go with a natural progression after the Atoma for a nice contrast of the core steel. Everything else I've used a shapton glass 500, but that's always just been a bit of proactive thinning.


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## Asteger (Sep 22, 2015)

Be patient on the Atoma and don't let too much pressure gouge the blade unevenly.

Yes, it all takes some time


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## RefGent (Sep 23, 2015)

dands said:


> You know, whenever I come across threads about thinning, a lot of the real experts (cough Jon) say that to truly "thin" a knife down (not just thinning behind the edge), you'd be looking at hours spent on just lower grit stones alone. I'm assuming the knife needs a bit of work if you're looking to thin down the entire blade. Have you contacted any local professionals about just thinning the knife down for you maybe on their wheels?



I am a local professional . That is to say, I am a professional sharpener in my city and know who the others are and I am the most knowledgeable when it comes to stuff like adequately thinning BTE or Japanese knives in general. I have a lot to learn though, which is why I have started hanging out here.


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## kohtachi (Sep 23, 2015)

dands said:


> You know, whenever I come across threads about thinning, a lot of the real experts (cough Jon) say that to truly "thin" a knife down (not just thinning behind the edge), you'd be looking at hours spent on just lower grit stones alone. I'm assuming the knife needs a bit of work if you're looking to thin down the entire blade. Have you contacted any local professionals about just thinning the knife down for you maybe on their wheels?



Take it to a pro if the cost is reasonable! or if your just doing it for the fun of it... try a belt sander then go to your stones!
I spent roughly 6+ hours trying to thin a stainless steel knife on different stones just for the hell of it.

good luck!


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## chefcomesback (Sep 23, 2015)

2x72 grinder 50-120 Norton then trizact belts a65, 45, 30 , voila


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## Asteger (Sep 23, 2015)

For those of us without grinders, thank heavens for Atomas


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## JBroida (Sep 23, 2015)

dands said:


> You know, whenever I come across threads about thinning, a lot of the real experts (cough Jon) say that to truly "thin" a knife down (not just thinning behind the edge), you'd be looking at hours spent on just lower grit stones alone. I'm assuming the knife needs a bit of work if you're looking to thin down the entire blade. Have you contacted any local professionals about just thinning the knife down for you maybe on their wheels?



i only say this because most people wait until things are really really bad before they thin... if you're on top of things, its really not long at all. Refinishing takes time though (on not wide bevel knives).


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## Asteger (Sep 23, 2015)

JBroida said:


> i only say this because most people wait until things are really really bad before they thin... if you're on top of things, its really not long at all. Refinishing takes time though (on not wide bevel knives).



Was thinking about this recently after getting a few used knives. Edges have received attention, but otherwise ... not sure what was happening. It always seems easy to screw up the finish, but I thought it was better known than it seems that you thin as you sharpen, each bevel, and don't leave it to build up. You can't keep the same haircut if you only trim the short bit at the neck as time goes by. 

There's always lots of talk about sharpening, but people are either not into re-finishing or afraid to do it, which does take time. If you just attend to the edge, the knife will continue looking new-ish but won't keep performing. I think people let this slide, or maybe don't want to thin and mess with finishes because they're worried about re-sale value, where maybe too high a value is placed on finish.


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## mark76 (Sep 23, 2015)

Thanks guys, now I know where most people begin. (Indeed, thank God for Atoma's, though they sure can scratch.)

But where do you end thinning? Which stone or grit level?


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## Asteger (Sep 23, 2015)

I think of it as when I can take out coarse or lower-med naturals and feel like most of the unwanted metal is now off; synth-wise, I guess it'd be when over the 500 range would feel good.


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## Dardeau (Sep 23, 2015)

I don't dig refinishing, that's why I only have wide bevels now. Thin as you go!


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## Benuser (Sep 23, 2015)

Automotive sandpaper with linen backing, like Metall by Robert Bosch, starting with P120. I want to avoid facetting use soft wood like thin cedar or hard rubber.


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 24, 2015)

I pick up old carbons look for dirt cheap ones, getting harder to find these days. Like 10" Dexters, use 1X42 Kalamazoo belt sander & a bucket of water to dip the blade. Thins out the blade quickly. Super easy to switch belts & grits.

I would never have patience to use a Atoma for hours sounds like work:fanning:


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## malexthekid (Sep 24, 2015)

Asteger said:


> Was thinking about this recently after getting a few used knives. Edges have received attention, but otherwise ... not sure what was happening. It always seems easy to screw up the finish, but I thought it was better known than it seems that you thin as you sharpen, each bevel, and don't leave it to build up. You can't keep the same haircut if you only trim the short bit at the neck as time goes by.
> 
> There's always lots of talk about sharpening, but people are either not into re-finishing or afraid to do it, which does take time. If you just attend to the edge, the knife will continue looking new-ish but won't keep performing. I think people let this slide, or maybe don't want to thin and mess with finishes because they're worried about re-sale value, where maybe too high a value is placed on finish.



I think you are spot on. At this stage i haven't thinned any of my knives, but also haven't sharpened them enough to need it. Main reason is the refinishing issue. Especially on my damascus blades


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## banjo1071 (Sep 24, 2015)

call lokal knifemaker
tell him what you want
wait 5-7 days
give him CHF15
enjoy a perfectly thinned and polished knife


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## mark76 (Sep 24, 2015)

CHF 15?


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## banjo1071 (Sep 24, 2015)

Swiss francs (confoederatio helveticae franken), about 15 dollar..


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## Asteger (Sep 24, 2015)

banjo1071 said:


> call lokal knifemaker
> tell him what you want
> wait 5-7 days
> give him CHF15
> enjoy a perfectly thinned and polished knife



Convenient, but not fun!


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## panda (Sep 24, 2015)

you end thinning at which ever grit you want your finish of the thinned bevel to be at. i think 1k or under is a good spot. quite a few people prefer king 800 as the ending stone for thinning. 
while diamond plate is faster than stones for the job, it feels absolutely horrible and i really can't stand it so i put up with the lengthier time on a low grit waterstone. mine of choice is a 320 cerax and remove those scratches with a 600-ish natural or chosera 600.

since thinning is so annoying, i thin a little (5 minutes) every session just to make sure i won't have a huge job later.


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## mark76 (Sep 24, 2015)

banjo1071 said:


> confoederatio helveticae franken



Ah, now I see it. You're Swiss. That explains it  .


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## Asteger (Sep 24, 2015)

panda said:


> you end thinning at which ever grit you want your finish of the thinned bevel to be at. i think 1k or under is a good spot. quite a few people prefer king 800 as the ending stone for thinning.
> while diamond plate is faster than stones for the job, it feels absolutely horrible and i really can't stand it so i put up with the lengthier time on a low grit waterstone. mine of choice is a 320 cerax and remove those scratches with a 600-ish natural or chosera 600.
> 
> since thinning is so annoying, i thin a little (5 minutes) every session just to make sure i won't have a huge job later.



I don't mind thinning, because it's a pretty substantial thing to do and interesting. Yes, I generally do the same as Panda, even if it'll leave non-wide bevel knives looking 'ugly' all the time. Usually, a little work with a med stone is enough for the edge and I'll probably use the same stone on the 2nd bevel too 

About where to end thinning again, and I said above, I dunno, synth-wise beyond 500 I guess, at which point using further finer stones on the 2nd bevel isn't 'thinning' to me, just mucking with the finishing. Yes, the 800 King sounds good for this, and I have an 800 JNS that is good and seems equivalent. Beyond this I'd be using naturals, and probably use naturals already after my coarse synth.


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## Benuser (Sep 24, 2015)

Do you all polish the relief bevel?


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## designdog (Sep 25, 2015)

This is an interesting subject, one which I have considered for a while. To me there is a practical and an aesthetic element to thinning these knives. From a practical view, many of the knives we buy are not thin enough to begin with, let alone after we have sharpened them repeatedly. Recently I used a knife I bought here, and observed how amazingly sharp the (carbon) edge was. Then I realized that the previous owner had done an outstanding job in thinning, making my touch up sharpening so much better. This is a wide bevel knife, which makes thinning and refinishing (or lack thereof) much easier.

The other issue is aesthetic, which also borders on the practical. When you thin the knife (or sharpen repeatedly) you are destroying the design that the maker put on the knife. For example, I happen to like the "S grind" favored by Marko and Kochi, among others, yet I know that after some time sharpening, I will have to thin the knife and the S grind will be no more. The same with any of the really good knife grinds; sooner or later they are all going to be the same, unless the thinner is a knife maker himself. (Again the exception is wide bevel.)

Does any of this matter? What is better, a reasonably sharp knife with a designer grind, or an achingly sharp knife with a grind put on by someone local who has the power equipment, and sharpened to the fourth dimension by you? I vote for the latter. I am going to look for a local guy that can grind a knife or two for me, and see how this works out...


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## Matus (Sep 25, 2015)

When it comes to thinning I carefully pack the knife and send it to someone who knows how do thin it 

Seriously - I need to get a small Zakuri and learn how to thin a knife. I guess I will find out that I need coarser stone than my Gesshin 400.


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