# Do I need natural stones



## liren1 (Apr 3, 2017)

Hi all
It's been a while since I posted here, for all sorts of reasons I cooked less and sharpened less.
I started free hand sharpening a couple of years ago, I'm still mediocre at best, but I'm getting reasonable results.

What I want to ask is, do I 'need' a natural stone ? I was thinking about getting one to try it out, but I'm not sure I can justify it. My current stones are JNS 320, Chosera 1000, Chosera 3000 and Naniwa Juunpaku - a.k.a Snow White which I don't always use actually.

Will a natural stone give me a better edge, or do I need to get to a better level before I can get a better edge. Do people here see noticeable improvements compared to synthetics or are they used more for aesthetic reasons.

Thanks


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## dwalker (Apr 3, 2017)

"Need" is a loaded word. I sure do enjoy my natural stones and like using them probably more than the knives themselves. You can achieve "different " edges as compared to synthetics, but "better" is subjective.


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## tgfencer (Apr 3, 2017)

I agree. You don't need and you won't necessarily get better edges. I enjoy jnats more so I'm very familiar with mine and take more care during sharpening. These things probably lead me to produce better edges more so than the stones themselves.


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## dwalker (Apr 3, 2017)

Nevermind my earlier post. I've given it some thought and you, and I, and everyone else "needs" at least one natural stone.


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## dwalker (Apr 3, 2017)

NO, Wait.. nobody should own them........leaves more for me


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## foody518 (Apr 3, 2017)

As they tend to be more idiosyncratic than synthetic stones, I'd suggest to keep working with your synths. If your self description of sharpening skill is 'mediocre at best', that's not something that natural stones are really going to address


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## K813zra (Apr 3, 2017)

Everybody needs natural stones.  That said, I agree with foody. Ability aside, naturals will test your patience. I find that with synthetic stones I can get by fine even if I hate the stone but with naturals it is more of a challenge to learn the stone and what it is useful for. I am still a fledgling so take my advice with a grain of salt.


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## inzite (Apr 3, 2017)

i find the edge from natural holds up better and much easier to deburr. Having said that, if you cant afford a decent full size jnat then one should make sure they can sharpen with consistency using more limited stone surface else one might get better results with larger synth stones.


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## daveb (Apr 3, 2017)

I've found myself using synthetics most of the time to sharpen knives now. I gave up most of my soakers because I wasn't using them and rely on S&G, some from JNS, some from JKI and JKI's diamond plates. It does not make for relaxing navel gazing but it gets it done.

I did not part with my naturals because I enjoy using them when I can and always with the single bevels. I don't know that they or I do a better job as a result but I like to think its better. Suggest you start with a finisher - I think most everybody does - and see how you like it. And then you'll need another.....


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## XooMG (Apr 3, 2017)

I suspect if I didn't polish tall bevels and only wanted good edge makers, I would have not bothered much with naturals. Now that I have some, I'm inclined to use them to justify owning them.


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## liren1 (Apr 4, 2017)

Thanks for all replies. By 'need' I meant - will it give me an edge that is better - and better means cuts better , holds better, or easier to deburr, not looks better. It's not a question of whether or not I can afford one stone (I can, though not $2000 for one stone.), but whether I will get something out of it now, and by the sound of it, given my less than expert skill, maybe not. But I'm so tempted...


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## liren1 (Apr 4, 2017)

dwalker said:


> Nevermind my earlier post. I've given it some thought and you, and I, and everyone else "needs" at least one natural stone.



In that case, which one ?... If I were to select one stone for my first step in this world.


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## foody518 (Apr 4, 2017)

Look at some of JNS Maksim's koppa-sized Aiiwatani lvl 3 stones, tack on a tomo-nagura. 15% off purchases until tomorrow too.


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## ynot1985 (Apr 4, 2017)

i think for most of us with naturals.. need - no, you can get a knife very sharp with synthetics and some synthetics can give kasumi finishes. it's only if you want that extra 5-10% that you pay the extra for a natural


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## nutmeg (Apr 4, 2017)

liren1 said:


> But I'm so tempted...


I'd try if I were you


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 4, 2017)

Been meaning to ask that too ... so is there any degree of sharpness or cutting feel available from expensive JNATs at all that is unreachable with synths, semi-synths (Kitayama) and/or non-expensive-or-jnat-naturals (belgian, welsh, whatever...), and stropping compounds, on any commonly found steel?


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## daveb (Apr 4, 2017)

XooMG said:


> I'm inclined to use them to justify owning them.



That could describe the majority of my knives:groucho:


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## K813zra (Apr 4, 2017)

As I have said before, I find threads like these interesting and it would seem everyone has their own reasons for liking natural stones or not. Unlike most I sharpen mostly narrow double bevel knives yet would not be without them. I also much prefer my mid grit stones as they leave the most practical edge for me. However, I can go to a higher level of polish with natural stones without losing so much bite and I do not find that true with synthetics. I wouldn't describe the edge I get from naturals as better, rather the edge is different and that just happens to be what I want from a stone. Having said that, I am just beginning my journey with natural stones and still have a lot to learn.


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## dwalker (Apr 4, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Been meaning to ask that too ... so is there any degree of sharpness or cutting feel available from expensive JNATs at all that is unreachable with synths, semi-synths (Kitayama) and/or non-expensive-or-jnat-naturals (belgian, welsh, whatever...), and stropping compounds, on any commonly found steel?



Most of the price of a jnat has to do with availability, size, uniformity in size (perfect brick shape), color, and appearance. Just because one is more expensive than the next says almost nothing about performance.


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 4, 2017)

Short answer is yes. As others mentioned a nice finisher. Ask for a beginners stone. Something around $350 will get you a decent rock and nagura. Then STOP and learn how that stone and nagura work with the steels you have. Aframes, JNS, Wantanabe will do you right.


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## liren1 (Apr 4, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Short answer is yes. As others mentioned a nice finisher. Ask for a beginners stone. Something around $350 will get you a decent rock and nagura. Then STOP and learn how that stone and nagura work with the steels you have. Aframes, JNS, Wantanabe will do you right.



Using work time to here, much more fun...
It seems you are very close with regards to prices. As a gift to self I contacted Watanabe yesterday about a Nikiri, and also asked about a 'reasonably priced' natural stone for a first time user. He recommended the Uchigumori stone which is splash and go, with good 'shaping power' to be used after my Naniwa snow white , and can be used on all types of steel, including stainless, and doesn't need Nagura stone. 
Usually I understand for kitchen knives there is not much point in going beyond 8000, so what can I expect using this stone ?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 4, 2017)

And also, would it do anything beyond what using arbitrarily finer synthetic abrasives (on a sufficiently fine grained steel) could achieve?


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## foody518 (Apr 4, 2017)

You should be able to start with a 100-200$ Jnat finisher


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## dwalker (Apr 4, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> And also, would it do anything beyond what using arbitrarily finer synthetic abrasives (on a sufficiently fine grained steel) could achieve?



A jnats biggest attribute to me is their versitilty. You could have a stone that gives you a 3-4k edge. Work it a little bit more and you could have a 5-6k edge. Add some different Nagura and you can expand a single stone's ability even more. 

My earlier post about cost was meant to say you don't have to spend a ton of money to get a great stone. Really good medium grit finishers can be had for under $150. My favorite finisher for a couple of my knives is a Shobu Tomae I picked up for $100 IIRC. I have spent as little as $35 for a natural and as much as $650. I use them all and can't say one is better than the next as they all do something different.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 4, 2017)

Starting ain't a problem - but stopping could be.


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## ABranson (Apr 4, 2017)

I'm a little confused by natural stones saying 1000-3000 for one stone. Is it that because they are natural, there is not
A specific grit?


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## dwalker (Apr 4, 2017)

ABranson said:


> I'm a little confused by natural stones saying 1000-3000 for one stone. Is it that because they are natural, there is not
> A specific grit?



Once you work up a slurry, the more you work with it, the more it breaks down giving a more refined edge. There is no specific grit for a natural stone. Most descriptions you see giving a range of grit are either the estimated grit range for a particular stone from x mine and y strata, or what the seller estimated it's range after using it. Many reputable sellers use the stone before selling so they can accurately describe it.


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## tgfencer (Apr 4, 2017)

ABranson said:


> I'm a little confused by natural stones saying 1000-3000 for one stone. Is it that because they are natural, there is not
> A specific grit?



To think of it another way, look at it a bit like sandpaper. A piece of sandpaper may start at at 600 grit, but the more you use it, the more the grit particles in the sandpaper wear down and break apart until you're left with a piece of sandpaper that still abrades material, but much less so because you've worn down the abrasive grit and made it finer. This is essentially what happens in a natural stone's slurry.


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## liren1 (Apr 4, 2017)

Any opinions on Uchigumori stones ? What kind of knives would they suit the most ? Trying to make up my mind ..


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## foody518 (Apr 4, 2017)

If you have several clad / clad+wide beveled knives they can be great


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## dwalker (Apr 4, 2017)

liren1 said:


> Any opinions on Uchigumori stones ? What kind of knives would they suit the most ? Trying to make up my mind ..



I would recommend you email Watanabe. Tell him what knives you have and what you are trying to do with them. Sin is very knowledgeable and passionate about natural stones and tests everything he sells. I can't think of anyone better suited to matching you up with your first natural stone. I wish I had done this when I first started.


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## liren1 (Apr 4, 2017)

dwalker said:


> I would recommend you email Watanabe. Tell him what knives you have and what you are trying to do with them. Sin is very knowledgeable and passionate about natural stones and tests everything he sells. I can't think of anyone better suited to matching you up with your first natural stone. I wish I had done this when I first started.



I did, that's what he recommended, that's why I'm inclined to take it, just wanted to know what experience the esteemed members of this forum have with this stone.


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## dwalker (Apr 4, 2017)

I have one on the way so my experience is exactly none with an uchi at this point. I do know they are beloved by many. I'm sure someone will chime in.


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 4, 2017)

Sin Watanabe is A+++ in my book. He's so knowledgeable and generous with his time and his English is excellent. He's also used to advising Noobs like us too. I don't think I've ever heard anyone unhappy with his stones. Some of them are just natural works of art.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 4, 2017)

I have to admit I do love the Belgian Blue as a touchup stone (once I learned how not to scratch it!), given it is splash and go and known to not raise burrs or wire edges easily, but that is a very different beast I guess from the whole JNat culture...


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## liren1 (Apr 5, 2017)

I guess people here won't find it too surprising that I decided to take it. So in one week time (barring any customs holds up) I will have my first natural stone, yay...


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## Badgertooth (Apr 5, 2017)

dwalker said:


> I would recommend you email Watanabe. Tell him what knives you have and what you are trying to do with them. Sin is very knowledgeable and passionate about natural stones and tests everything he sells. I can't think of anyone better suited to matching you up with your first natural stone. I wish I had done this when I first started.



Never a truer word has been uttered. Such a gentleman and incredibly knowledgable.


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## dwalker (Apr 5, 2017)

liren1 said:


> I guess people here won't find it too surprising that I decided to take it. So in one week time (barring any customs holds up) I will have my first natural stone, yay...



I'm sure you will enjoy it, but if you dont, put it up here and I'm sure someone else will. There is little financial risk in quality jnats from reputable vendors so rest easy. The biggest risk is getting hooked and coveting every nice stone you see.


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## TheCaptain (Apr 5, 2017)

liren1 said:


> I guess people here won't find it too surprising that I decided to take it. So in one week time (barring any customs holds up) I will have my first natural stone, yay...



Pictures or it didn't happen! :biggrin:


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 5, 2017)

dwalker said:


> The biggest risk is getting hooked and coveting every nice stone you see.




Can't agree more, but I just try to live vicariously through other members like Badger. His videos/pics and descriptions are so well done, they've saved me thousands. 

I think my J-nat itch has been scratched with a full sized creamy hard Oohira Suita with tons of purple red renge from Aframes and a super fine Oozuku Suita Asagi along with a set of asano naguras from Maxim. 

Those stones along with a soft aiwatani koppa and soft Oohira and the 1/6K JKI Diamonds encompass my whole kit. 

Unless I'm thinning and that takes another set of tools.


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## liren1 (Apr 5, 2017)

dwalker said:


> The biggest risk is getting hooked and coveting every nice stone you see.



Thou shall not covet thy neighbour's wife or knife, guard thy Jnat with thy life


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## liren1 (Apr 5, 2017)

Changing the subject a bit, but still Watanabe - has anyone used his diamond stone AI Diamond ? Kind of expensive at 68000 Yen.


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## ABranson (Apr 5, 2017)

would people recommend natural stones on stainless steel and if so, what types, grits, hardness, etc?


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## dwalker (Apr 5, 2017)

ABranson said:


> would people recommend natural stones on stainless steel and if so, what types, grits, hardness, etc?


In my opinion, Jnats are effective on any steel. However, if you are referring to softer western stainless steels, I feel like they are a waste. I have tried several Jnats with Ginsan with great success and highly recommend them if you are interested in going down this particular rabbit hole. As far as which stone to choose, that would depend on what level of refinement you like and what your skill level is with sharpening.


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## XooMG (Apr 5, 2017)

My naturals might be a bit slow on my skh4 cleaver, but it is thin enough that they still can do decent touchups.


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## ABranson (Apr 5, 2017)

dwalker said:


> In my opinion, Jnats are effective on any steel. However, if you are referring to softer western stainless steels, I feel like they are a waste. I have tried several Jnats with Ginsan with great success and highly recommend them if you are interested in going down this particular rabbit hole. As far as which stone to choose, that would depend on what level of refinement you like and what your skill level is with sharpening.



SO keep hearing this and i need some clarification. Why would a softer western steel be less beneficial on Jnats. I'm assuming its wrong but in my brain its like "softer steel=easier to sharpen."


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## valgard (Apr 5, 2017)

ABranson said:


> SO keep hearing this and i need some clarification. Why would a softer western steel be less beneficial on Jnats. I'm assuming its wrong but in my brain its like "softer steel=easier to sharpen."



for a graphical (very simplistic) image think of trying to make graphite vs rubber pointy by rubbing them on an abrasive surface like paper.


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## XooMG (Apr 5, 2017)

I don't know personally, but the intuitive guess is that less abrasion for a given surface fineness would yield more plastic deformation.


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## dwalker (Apr 5, 2017)

valgard said:


> for a graphical (very simplistic) image think of trying to make graphite vs rubber pointy by rubbing them on an abrasive surface like paper.


Well put. Easier to abrade does not equal easier to sharpen. They are 2 different endeavors.


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## ABranson (Apr 5, 2017)

dwalker said:


> Well put. Easier to abrade does not equal easier to sharpen. They are 2 different endeavors.



But here is where I'm kind of lost. My friend has a stainless knife. Crazy hardness like 64. thts why the rubber/graphite analogy doesnt make sense to me. Would a hard stainless be worth a jnat stone? like my boss has a custom knife. stainless. 64 hardness. and its kind of a western/eastern mix


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## ABranson (Apr 5, 2017)

its a nora


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## ABranson (Apr 5, 2017)

valgard said:


> for a graphical (very simplistic) image think of trying to make graphite vs rubber pointy by rubbing them on an abrasive surface like paper.



With this analogy, what I play out is that I could bring that graphite to a point on the paper should i really work my angles. The rubberband would be futile. and nothing would even happen to the rubber band. I guess changing the rubberband out for something like an eraser, lots of material would come off, but it would end up really just smooth, not sharp. am I going in the right direction here?


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## dwalker (Apr 5, 2017)

ABranson said:


> But here is where I'm kind of lost. My friend has a stainless knife. Crazy hardness like 64. thts why the rubber/graphite analogy doesnt make sense to me. Would a hard stainless be worth a jnat stone? like my boss has a custom knife. stainless. 64 hardness. and its kind of a western/eastern mix


I would venture a guess and say yes, a jnat would be something i would try on it. I do not have a lot of experience with any stainless other than Ginsan, but my stones work very well with it. What is the steel? If it is a PM steel, there have been threads on the subject of their use with Jnats, but my google fu is weak.


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## ABranson (Apr 5, 2017)

dwalker said:


> I would venture a guess and say yes, a jnat would be something i would try on it. I do not have a lot of experience with any stainless other than Ginsan, but my stones work very well with it. What is the steel? If it is a PM steel, there have been threads on the subject of their use with Jnats, but my google fu is weak.



What about arkansas stones? would these be better for softer western steels than jnats?


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## dwalker (Apr 5, 2017)

ABranson said:


> What about arkansas stones? would these be better for softer western steels than jnats?


There is nothing wrong with Arkansas stones and they work fine. My favorite type of stones to use are Japanese water stones weather they are synthetic or natural. When I said I believe a natural finisher is a waste on softer steels like you would find in a commercially made German knife, it is because I don't think they benefit from that level of refinement. I have some German knives and enjoy sharpening them on water stones, I just stop at around 1k on a synthetic and sharpen at more obtuse angle than a jknife. I like where that leaves the edge. The natural finishers I use are typically around 6k plus. A harder steel, sharpened at a much more acute angle (something that simply cannot be done with a softer stainless), can benefit from this level of refinement.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 5, 2017)

"easy to abrade" is more of a wear resistance than a hardness thing - if you tried to *hammer* 61HRC VG10 sharp, it would be easier to do so than with 64 HRC aogami super. Situation is reversed on a whetstone (unless the whetstone is too soft for AS).


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## dwalker (Apr 5, 2017)

I would like to say that these are just my opinions derived from my limited experience. I'm sure someone loves using a jnat finisher on their F. Dick - and there is nothing wrong with that. Go with what works for you.


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## ABranson (Apr 5, 2017)

dwalker said:


> There is nothing wrong with Arkansas stones and they work fine. My favorite type of stones to use are Japanese water stones weather they are synthetic or natural. When I said I believe a natural finisher is a waste on softer steels like you would find in a commercially made German knife, it is because I don't think they benefit from that level of refinement. I have some German knives and enjoy sharpening them on water stones, I just stop at around 1k on a synthetic and sharpen at more obtuse angle than a jknife. I like where that leaves the edge. The natural finishers I use are typically around 6k plus. A harder steel, sharpened at a much more acute angle (something that simply cannot be done with a softer stainless), can benefit from this level of refinement.



That clears it up some! So For a german stainless, or other stainless of the like, keep it low grit for the most part, simply because a 4k or 6k wont do much for it. So my next question is, If i wanted a Jnat stone, in attempts of using it on a softer german metal, are there Jnat stones that are either softer or lower grit. I know their grit specificity is a little different which is why I ask.


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## brooksie967 (Apr 5, 2017)

Yes you need them


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## dwalker (Apr 5, 2017)

I don't have a ton of mid to low grits in jnats but a Binsui may work well. I really feel like others could guide you better in this area.


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## valgard (Apr 5, 2017)

Just want to make sure my analogy wasn't misunderstood. I was referring to softer stainless with the rubber thing. I only have (very) limited experience with harder carbon and stainless, a bit more with soft stainless but not even trying to pose as an expert or anything. I just thought that analogy would make things clearer, not bring you even more confusion. From what I have read on the topic there is much more to ease of sharpening and apparently some stainless steels can be very easy to sharpen as well. One that gets *mentioned* often in that category is AEB-L, while other hard stainless are very abrasion resistant (no experience here, just from reading so don't quote me) thus hard to sharpen for different reasons than softer steel.


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## foody518 (Apr 5, 2017)

I have a HSS gyuto that I think uses a fairly wear + abrasion resistant steel...my finer Jnats are quite slow to abrade it


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## ABranson (Apr 5, 2017)

valgard said:


> Just want to make sure my analogy wasn't misunderstood. I was referring to softer stainless with the rubber thing. I only have (very) limited experience with harder carbon and stainless, a bit more with soft stainless but not even trying to pose as an expert or anything. I just thought that analogy would make things clearer, not bring you even more confusion. From what I have read on the topic there is much more to ease of sharpening and apparently some stainless steels can be very easy to sharpen as well. One that gets *mentioned* often in that category is AEB-L, while other hard stainless are very abrasion resistant (no experience here, just from reading so don't quote me) thus hard to sharpen for different reasons than softer steel.



Awesome. That is actually really helpful. One of the knives i mentioned in this, i looked up, and it is AEB-L steel. so thanks for connecting those dots. I guess its really gonna come down to experimentation. 

probably safer to go with a synth than a natural at first if working with softer german steel?


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## K813zra (Apr 6, 2017)

ABranson said:


> That clears it up some! So For a german stainless, or other stainless of the like, keep it low grit for the most part, simply because a 4k or 6k wont do much for it. So my next question is, If i wanted a Jnat stone, in attempts of using it on a softer german metal, are there Jnat stones that are either softer or lower grit. I know their grit specificity is a little different which is why I ask.



My Ikarashi is my go to for German stainless. I honestly think this stone works better with stainless than it does with carbon but that is a mere feeling with no evidence other than the fact that it seems to cut faster. If I were to compare the edge to my Shapton Glass 2k I would say the Ikarashi leaves an edge with similar bite but cuts cleaner. For what it is worth, the Ikarashi that I have is in the middle range of hardness listings on Watanabe's Ikarashi page. I would love to try one that is softer as this stone is more of a 2k replacement than a 1k like I thought it would be.

My softer Aizu works well on a range of stainless but its harder big brother, not so much.


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## foody518 (Apr 6, 2017)

ABranson said:


> Awesome. That is actually really helpful. One of the knives i mentioned in this, i looked up, and it is AEB-L steel. so thanks for connecting those dots. I guess its really gonna come down to experimentation.
> 
> probably safer to go with a synth than a natural at first if working with softer german steel?



Recently been finishing soft stainless on a Thai Orange Binsui (leftmost stone in my avatar), but would only suggest this if you're setting yourself up with a clean bevel cut from a coarse or medium synth, not necessarily as a one stone solution. It's just felt like I have better success getting a cleaner final edge this way, minimal lingering burr

As dwalker mentioned, Jnat white Binsui probably could work in a similar fashion
These are both <100$ options for quite good dimension stones, excluding shipping (dunno your location)


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## K813zra (Apr 6, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Recently been finishing soft stainless on a Thai Orange Binsui (leftmost stone in my avatar), but would only suggest this if you're setting yourself up with a clean bevel cut from a coarse or medium synth, not necessarily as a one stone solution. It's just felt like I have better success getting a cleaner final edge this way, minimal lingering burr
> 
> As dwalker mentioned, Jnat white Binsui probably could work in a similar fashion
> These are both <100$ options for quite good dimension stones, excluding shipping (dunno your location)



That is something that I did not add about the Ikarashi and am glad that foody brought it up. I too would suggest using a medium synthetic stone first. 800-1200 should work fine but you can start coarser. That is not to say that the Ikarashi can not do the job of the synthetic but it is not as efficient. So far the only exception to this I have made is with the Omura stone from Wakayama and even still I will often use a coarse stone before this.


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## Krassi (Apr 16, 2017)

Hi!

@K813zra 
I had exactly the same Impression with my Ikarashi (a very good one from Sonnkeisaku also like yours in the 2k range).
This stone is the godfather of german stainless steel.. It cuts so fast that i could not belive it.. You can do even rough rebeveling on german stainless with it.

But as you say.. a good 1k Synthetic first on any other steel is a must. Or if you have lots of time than orange Tnat.

My vintage Aizu is more in the 3-4k Range and teams up great with the Ikarashi (both come from the same region)

So actually nobody needs natural stones below 6k but they are fun and remove less metal and make shallow scratches than the much faster synthetics..
of course a Shapton Glass 2k is crazy faster (i also got one).. but the ikarashi .. ehh .. its green... and thats awesome 

Seeya Daniel and happy Easter stuff!


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