# Rookie sharpening fail



## donegoofed (Jan 23, 2020)

I recently got addicted to this new hobby, and bought a Tanaka Nashiji Bunka (aogami super) as my second knife. It started out as a beautiful knife, in my opinion.






I wasn't so pleased with the sharpness, so I figured it couldn't hurt to give it a try on the stones. Well, I was wrong. This was the result:





The heel was absolutely flat before I started.

I returned it to the store and they managed to remove the bumps, even though I have lost a fair bit of steel and potential lifetime.





But as you can see on these pictures they didn't manage to get the heel completely flat. And the heel looks a bit wonky. The guy at the shop told me it was better to have a bit of roll off at the heel, but I think something is still wrong. He was also 100% sure that this was my mistake.








My questions is how did this go so wrong? 

Could it be an unevenness on my stone(s)? 
Sharpening technique? 
Overgrind from the manufacturer?
Other?

And yes, I have learned my lesson. Feel free to laugh at my rookie mistake. I shouldn't have taken my rookie "skills" on this expensive knife (for me its expensive).


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## ian (Jan 23, 2020)

I'd certainly make sure your stones are flat, and also that you are pressing with the same amount of pressure all along the edge. 

I agree with the store. A flat heel isn't so great. It's fine as it is now.


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## GeneH (Jan 23, 2020)

Look on the bright side - you have more experience now fixing back grind. (even if it was you that ground it down weird, that really matter) 

Yeah, double check your stones - are you using full size and freehanding or using the smaller stones and a guided system? Either way you have to keep checking the progress frequently as you sharpen anything. Are you using the full stone and going across the whole edge as much as possible on every pass?


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## Benuser (Jan 23, 2020)

Expect the heel section to be quite a bit thicker. Stay longer at the heel with your first stone and use a marker and a loupe to make sure you've reached the very edge — and not just accumulating some debris on top of the former edge.


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## Xenif (Jan 23, 2020)

Just quick fyi that knife is a Matsubara and not a Tanaka


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## donegoofed (Jan 24, 2020)

Thank you for all the answers. I feel a bit less like an idiot now.



GeneH said:


> Yeah, double check your stones - are you using full size and freehanding or using the smaller stones and a guided system? Either way you have to keep checking the progress frequently as you sharpen anything. Are you using the full stone and going across the whole edge as much as possible on every pass?


Full size and freehanding. I have seen a lot on knifeplanets sharpening guide, and all of Jon's videos. I work my way up the whole blade. But I think I will try out to sharpen in sections now. 

I was a bit fascinated by this tho.


Xenif said:


> Just quick fyi that knife is a Matsubara and not a Tanaka


Interesting! I googled a bit about Matsubara now. They are crafted by Katsuto Tanaka. As far as I can understand the shop has mixed up Shigeki Tanaka (Tanaka knives) and Katsuto Tanaka (Matsubara). Do you have any other info about this knife? 

The shop has it listed as a AO-knife, but in the description it says aogami super. I haven't found any other knifes by him in aogami super.


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 24, 2020)

Too many Tanakas to keep track of


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## Kippington (Jan 24, 2020)

donegoofed said:


> My questions is how did this go so wrong


Don't be too ashamed, it's a very common problem which happens more often than you might think.
You need to think of where you are applying pressure to the knife at the time of the stroke.

If you hold the knife at a different angle to the stone, this problem might solve itself. For example:




You might be holding the knife at a similar angle to the left picture, with the tip and the heel of the knife overhanging the stone. If you hold the knife with no overhang, more like the picture on the right - assuming your stone is actually flat - it becomes almost impossible to over-sharpen areas on the flat of the knife.

You will find that the handle will get in the way sometimes, but there are ways around it.


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## Michi (Jan 25, 2020)

Kippington said:


> If you hold the knife with no overhang, more like the picture on the right - assuming your stone is actually flat - it becomes almost impossible to over-sharpen areas on the flat of the knife.


I really second that suggestion. At least to me, it's easier that way to take off metal evenly along the edge. Except with full-bolster knives, where it just doesn't work


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## Benuser (Jan 25, 2020)

Michi said:


> I really second that suggestion. At least to me, it's easier that way to take of metal evenly along the edge. Except with full-bolster knives, where it just doesn't work


I think you best stay away from the first millimetres from the fingerguard.


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## donegoofed (Jan 30, 2020)

Kippington said:


> Don't be too ashamed, it's a very common problem which happens more often than you might think.
> ...


Thank you for the tip about the angles. When I picked up the knife after repairs he told me exactly the same. 

I have a question about sharpening progression tho. The shop recommended that I should always start sharpening at a coarse stone (220 is what I have, also bought after their recommendation). I follow knifeplanets sharpening school, and raise a burr with high pressure at 220. Then lighter pressures at the same stone, before I move to 1k and then 3k.
I have used the 220 with good results with both a Masahiro with R2 steel and some Wusthofs. But when I used it on this Matsubara it all went really fast before I ended up with those weird spots. 
Is the 220 too coarse for a rookie? Could it better to start with a 1k and save the 220 for bigger repairs (chips etc)? Or was it a bad combination of stone and knife?


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## Nikabrik (Jan 30, 2020)

It's not even that 220 is too coarse for rookies - it's coarser than is typically helpful for general ordinary sharpening, easily removing excessive material and introducing relatively deep scratches. 1000 is a great place to start.

220 is nonetheless useful for certain things: thinning, removing chips, fixing profile issues like you had, or maybe creating an edge on a heavily dulled knife.

By the way, you probably want to monitor burr development along the edge throughout sharpening. In particular, ideally you'll develop an even burr the whole length, which will mean you're not affecting the profile. As Kippington alluded, you remove material where you apply pressure - so don't push on the knife where you already have a burr, and do press where you don't have a burr (if it starts unevenly).


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## The Edge (Jan 30, 2020)

I would stay away from using high pressure at all. It may speed things up slightly, but you'll run into problems if you're not perfectly able to apply pressure. You can end up with problems by flexing the steel during the sharpening process, and causing uneven wear. Trust that the stone will do its job, and be light. Your stone will last longer, and you'll end up with better results.


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## TBS19106 (Jan 30, 2020)

On the advice of @Dave Martell I just purchased a cheap, high carbon steel Japanese knife to practice on and work out all my kinks before going after my valuable knives. I picked up a Fujiwara Kanefusa FKH Series Petty for $50 (SK-4 steel which is not too highly thought of). If I get good on that, I will graduate to the $110 JCK Original Kagayaki CarboNext Series Gyuto. All at JCK. I hope that there is enough steel left on them after I "practice" to give as wedding presents this Spring.


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## M1k3 (Jan 30, 2020)

SK steel isn't necessarily bad, it just can sometimes be a bit "smelly" until a stable patina forms.


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## TBS19106 (Jan 30, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> SK steel isn't necessarily bad, it just can sometimes be a bit "smelly" until a stable patina forms.


Yeah, I am the same way.


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## Dave Martell (Jan 30, 2020)

TBS19106 said:


> On the advice of @Dave Martell I just purchased a cheap, high carbon steel Japanese knife to practice on and work out all my kinks before going after my valuable knives. I picked up a Fujiwara Kanefusa FKH Series Petty for $50 (SK-4 steel which is not too highly thought of). If I get good on that, I will graduate to the $110 JCK Original Kagayaki CarboNext Series Gyuto. All at JCK. I hope that there is enough steel left on them after I "practice" to give as wedding presents this Spring.




Two things...

1. You should have got a larger knife (180-240mm) to practice on. I know it sounds weird but little knives can be challenging at first for many people.

2. Don't count on giving your practice knives away as wedding presents.


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## Benuser (Jan 31, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> SK steel isn't necessarily bad, it just can sometimes be a bit "smelly" until a stable patina forms.


The last ones I've seen didn't show that particularity. As if the norms for sulfur traces have been narrowed.


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## donegoofed (Jan 31, 2020)

TBS19106 said:


> On the advice of @Dave Martell I just purchased a cheap, high carbon steel Japanese knife to practice on and work out all my kinks before going after my valuable knives.


Not a bad idea! I have already practiced on some Wusthofs, but it didn't feel the same as the jknives.

I dug around a bit, and found two used Tojiro Shirogami knives (white #2) for under $55 total. According to the sellers description they are not used, and they look as good as new. It's not as big as @Dave Martell recommends (one 150mm petty and 165mm santoku), but still a decent deal for two knives to practice on. 
I'll have some fun with these before f****** up again.


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## donegoofed (Feb 3, 2020)

A short followup here, which might be useful for anyone who makes the same mistake in the future.

I bought a flattening stone, and I probably spent about* 3-4* hours to make both the 220 and 1000 side perfectly flat. I talked to the guy who fixed my knife, and he agreed that this definitely was the biggest issue. The stones wasn't only dished on the long side, but also a pit in the middle, which took forever to fix. 

Lesson learned. I'll flatten my stones more regularly from now on.


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## inferno (Feb 3, 2020)

if you want some sharpening training get 3 cheap knives from bunnpris or rema or something, different size ones. no wait. ikea!! get ikea knives. then hack into a brick or similar. now remove the chips/dings, thin it out, get it sharp. repeat.

you will figure out how this must in work in practice pretty fast. 

I like to recommend the "sharpening with bob kramer" vid on youtube. and also "double bevel basics" to beginners. those 2 is all you really need. 
but if you spend enough time on the stones you dont need to watch these at all.

after you have sharpened a couple of knives you will find out that completely flat stones is not that important.

if you want to get one good stone and only one. i would suggest the shapton pro 2k or the glass 2k. thats to maintain an edge. if you want to remove more material faster, get a 220-1k. personally i think 1k is to slow to really remove material on.

when you can get any knife almost scary sharp on the 2k then, and only then, its time to get finer stones imo. 

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sounds like quite excessive time to flatten a stone imo. i spend about 2-10 minutes or so on my stones. 
i once bought 4 missarka stones and these all are severely warped from the factory. these are sintered aluminium oxide. it took me about 1h to flatten all 8 sides on a diamond plate.


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## Benuser (Feb 3, 2020)

I respectfully disagree. Soft cheap stainless are a pain to sharpen: highly abrasion resistant because of its large carbides, and very often far too thick right behind the edge. Hard to raise a burr on, even harder to get rid of it. Burrs popping up after a while. An exercise in frustration. 
Dave's suggestion of Fujiwara FKH makes a lot of sense. You get a decent knife as a premium. But it wouldn't be my very first step. For the basics, a carbon steel Windmill Breakfast knife is the option I would favour: very thin behind the edge. By basics I mean: raising a burr, chasing it, getting rid of it.


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## inferno (Feb 3, 2020)

soft ss its a ***** to sharpen yes. thats why you learn so fast! 
i have always wondered what the "hard to deburr vg10" talk was all about. i started on a 52hrc fiskars. then you have to learn. i could get that shaving sharp. 
and i obviously had to do that very often since it was 52 hrc.

**** steel is the best learning imo.


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## Michi (Feb 3, 2020)

Opinel might be another cheap option to practice on.


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## Benuser (Feb 3, 2020)

inferno said:


> soft ss its a ***** to sharpen yes. thats why you learn so fast!
> i have always wondered what the "hard to deburr vg10" talk was all about. i started on a 52hrc fiskars. then you have to learn. i could get that shaving sharp.
> and i obviously had to do that very often since it was 52 hrc.
> 
> **** steel is the best learning imo.


I get the idea. But the novice will get poor habits as well: applying much pressure, wasting material, accepting incomplete deburring, ignoring what sharpness can mean.


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