# Restoring a Kasumi Finish?



## mikedtran

Curious what are some of the options for restoring/cleaning up a Kasumi finish (particular for a Wakui, but also for a Shig).

Seems like finger stones is a common way. If I don't have access to finger stones, would slurry from a certain grit stones work? Any other options?


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## aboynamedsuita

King 800 is referenced by Dave M in this thread http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...the-easiest-stone-to-get-a-kasumi-finish-with

Do a Google search of KKF for "king 800 Kasumi" and it'll come up multiple times. Unless you want to get uchigomori finger stones it'd probably be a good choice. I got some uchigomori and kiita stones from Maksim so may get into this once I figure out which is better for what


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## Smurfmacaw

Jon at JKI can supply fingerstones that work well. I've been happy with mine....a little bit of work but hey, it's a hobby.


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## mikedtran

tjangula said:


> King 800 is referenced by Dave M in this thread http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...the-easiest-stone-to-get-a-kasumi-finish-with
> 
> Do a Google search of KKF for "king 800 Kasumi" and it'll come up multiple times. Unless you want to get uchigomori finger stones it'd probably be a good choice. I got some uchigomori and kiita stones from Maksim so may get into this once I figure out which is better for what



Thanks that is a really helpful search term!



Smurfmacaw said:


> Jon at JKI can supply fingerstones that work well. I've been happy with mine....a little bit of work but hey, it's a hobby.



Thanks for the lead, sent Jon an email =)


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## Von blewitt

Wet/dry sandpaper works great, I usually start with 320, unless there are really deep scratches. If you can remove the handle and clamp the tang to something you will get a more even finish. Using a firm backing on the paper, make passes in one direction only, heel to tip and continue to until you have an even finish, then repeat the process with finer grits, you can stop at 400, but I prefer 600 myself.

Here is a pic of a Kato I refinished in this method, this is after removing the vertical grind marks it comes with
https://instagram.com/p/w2a1u0HIB3/


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## mikedtran

Von blewitt said:


> Wet/dry sandpaper works great, I usually start with 320, unless there are really deep scratches. If you can remove the handle and clamp the tang to something you will get a more even finish. Using a firm backing on the paper, make passes in one direction only, heel to tip and continue to until you have an even finish, then repeat the process with finer grits, you can stop at 400, but I prefer 600 myself.
> 
> Here is a pic of a Kato I refinished in this method, this is after removing the vertical grind marks it comes with
> https://instagram.com/p/w2a1u0HIB3/



That is a very nice finish on a Kato, much sleeker and sexier than the vertical grind marks.

Two quick questions: Did you do this wet or dry? Did you avoid the core steel area when doing this or did you go all the way up to the edge?


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## ynot1985

do you do this with wet or dry sandpaper? and when you say 'Using a firm backing on the paper', do you imply that you need to stick it something or just with your hands?


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## Von blewitt

mikedtran said:


> That is a very nice finish on a Kato, much sleeker and sexier than the vertical grind marks.
> 
> Two quick questions: Did you do this wet or dry? Did you avoid the core steel area when doing this or did you go all the way up to the edge?


I use wd40 to lubricate the paper, and I go near the edge, but try as much as possible to avoid the very edge, also be careful with the tip, it's easy to press too hard and damage the tip, or catch the paper on the return stroke and damage yourself.


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## Von blewitt

ynot1985 said:


> do you do this with wet or dry sandpaper? and when you say 'Using a firm backing on the paper', do you imply that you need to stick it something or just with your hands?


 I have cut a cork sanding block into slices, and chamfered the edge. I cut strips of paper to fit and wrap it around the block


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## ynot1985

Von blewitt said:


> I have cut a cork sanding block into slices, and chamfered the edge. I cut strips of paper to fit and wrap it around the block



Thanks for the sand paper tip.. for once it's something that's easy to find in Australia


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## mikedtran

Von blewitt said:


> I use wd40 to lubricate the paper, and I go near the edge, but try as much as possible to avoid the very edge, also be careful with the tip, it's easy to press too hard and damage the tip, or catch the paper on the return stroke and damage yourself.



Thanks the additional tips are much appreciated and very helpful!


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## DDPslice

I dont have a kasumi knife but through learning about sword polishing, i like pulling out the natural look of the knife, i take the bevel to a high polish then using the uchi to bring out the look of the soft iron which significantly darkens it. 

Sandpaper helps, i use a high polish pad to hold the thin uchigamori instead of rice paper.

Please do not use wd40, it creates a false polish and 2)you're using wd40 on your kitchen knife.

Water is the only lube you'll need.

Ill try and post some good reads.


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## mikedtran

Did a little reading on Maksim's blog just now.

Was curious though, it sounds like uchigamori are the final step in the polishing. So does it make sense to still use some sand paper before the uchigamori or should that be able to get out most of the scratches?


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## krx927

Sure, start with sand paper.


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## aboynamedsuita

I doubt you'd get any scratches out with the Uchigomori (they'd just polish between the scratches) and would only bring out the contrast at the cladding line or in a multi layer jigane. I guess it's depend on the look you want to go for, I wouldn't mind sanding a knife I have a bit finer than current and then use the stones. 

Smurfmacaw did a crash course in finger stones here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/24469-My-Foray-Into-Finger-Stones


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## Smurfmacaw

I've found that polishing to as near a mirror finish as possible, all the way down to the edge, before you use the finger stones works best. The fingerstones are pretty soft and won't scratch the hagane if you are careful and will give the jigane that hazy finish you are looking for with a nice contrast between the core and the cladding. It's a lot easier than it sounds.


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## mikedtran

That write up is exactly what I needed. Pretty excited for the whole process! =)


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## Asteger

tjangula said:


> I doubt you'd get any scratches out with the Uchigomori (they'd just polish between the scratches) and would only bring out the contrast at the cladding line or in a multi layer jigane. I guess it's depend on the look you want to go for, I wouldn't mind sanding a knife I have a bit finer than current and then use the stones.



Yeah, jizuya uchigumori should basically darken the cladding (and help highlight layers if kitaeji for eg). This would still work if you have scratch patterns underneath, and it might look good to keep these too in the tip-to-handle Sanjo-ish style. I also like the coarse scratch-polish patterns on 1-bevels or roughly finished Heiji, but finer polishing looks better on more smoothly ground knives, as many gyuto are. 



Von blewitt said:


> Wet/dry sandpaper works great ... a Kato I refinished in this method, this is after removing the vertical grind marks it comes with
> https://instagram.com/p/w2a1u0HIB3/



This looks good to me, and much better than the original Kato finish. Must have taken a while to erase the original grind marks, which I guess is why Kato doesn't do it himself. Definitely has a shinier paper polish, though. Hard to get the lines so uniform and parallel like VonB did here.

I usually use jnat powder (I have a broken Natsuya and uchigimori powder) or slurry and rub with this in whatever way that seems fit at the time. Wet/dry and sandpapers are useful too, but seem to dull too quick.


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## Smurfmacaw

mikedtran said:


> Did a little reading on Maksim's blog just now.
> 
> Was curious though, it sounds like uchigamori are the final step in the polishing. So does it make sense to still use some sand paper before the uchigamori or should that be able to get out most of the scratches?



Yes, use paper and polish out the knife before you use fingerstones. It would take forever to remove deep scratches with fingerstones. I did a Carter high grade funayuki which has a similar finish to the Kato and it took a good hour or hour and a half to get the blade ready for the finger stones. I started at 100 grit (well, actually I started at 220 and quickly realized I'd be old(er) and grey(er) before I got the scratches out.) I then worked up to 2000 grit. Next blade I polish out will get final polished with diamond compound on a piece of felt after the 2000 grit paper before I use the fingerstones. Is that totally necessary? Probably not but it makes sure you don't have any scratches that would show up with the finger stones. I find the whole process kind of therapeutic. A loupe helps a lot in this process as it is much easier to identify when you still have scratches that haven't quite been eliminated (plus it's really useful to identify what's going on with the edge when you sharpen...you can see the burr and all the little chips and nicks that aren't quite gone yet.....hey, it's a hobby - it's ok to obsess lol).

I'm going to sit down and build some more fingerstones over the next week or two and I'll try to document a little closer with photographs. I plan on taking them to 1mm and gluing on the backing paper and then just leave them and thin to final dimensions when I need them, it's a lot easier than I thought it would be.


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## Castalia

There is lots of great discussion about fingerstones and very complex ways of polishing up kasumi. This is the place to discuss it, but if you don't want to be too precious and just get your knife looking good quickly, I use a progression of three scotch brite pads (http://www.amazon.com/3M-HP-HP-Scotch-Brite-Hand-Pad/dp/B00125PR5A/ref=pd_bxgy_263_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0AYGYWX0WN381480YNZ5) just using my fingers and the knife on a flat surface. It brings out the kasumi nicely on my Shigefusa in about five minutes. You will probably want to sharpen afterwards as well. 

Of course now I have to post some photos, but I am at work now. I'll try to put something up later.


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## Castalia

Here is the progression of the scotch brite pads with grits etc. for geeks:http://academic.evergreen.edu/projects/biophysics/technotes/fabric/finish.pdf

I use the maroon first, then dark gray, then light gray. I have not tried the finest white one yet. Of course this is not for mirror polishing but works well for beautiful hazy clouds on my Shig.


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## mikedtran

Castalia said:


> Here is the progression of the scotch brite pads with grits etc. for geeks:http://academic.evergreen.edu/projects/biophysics/technotes/fabric/finish.pdf
> 
> I use the maroon first, then dark gray, then light gray. I have not tried the finest white one yet. Of course this is not for mirror polishing but works well for beautiful hazy clouds on my Shig.



This is great, I actually have the light gray pads already so that gets it off to a good start.


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## DDPslice

http://togiarts.com/Togi_Arts/Polishing.html
http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/togi,process.html
http://www.nihontoantiques.com/archive/polishing, step by step.htm
http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/togishi.htm
The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing


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## Keith Sinclair

I use a Gesshin Jinzo Aoto stone. Get good contrast with it. Great for spiffing up scratched up well used single bevels. Jon gave me some tips on how to get the mist with this stone.


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## Andrew

I've been trying to achieve a kasumi finish using a hakka stone purchased via B/S/T and having some decent luck for my otherwise total lack of experience...

So far been mostly focussing on a yanagiba from korin that came with a pretty rough scratch pattern, still some low spots that I've not evened out- but overall not too bad. It's a fun process on knives I'm not totally worried about making a mess of.


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## mikedtran

First I would like to thank the forum for being so helpful and sharing tons of information. Additionally two separate members messaged me and offered to send me fingerstones, which really just shows what a community this is =)

Today I was able to round up 220/320/400/600 grit sandpaper at the hardware store and a friend was able to find some 800/1000/1500/2000 and will be dropping them off on Friday. 

*Process*
I took the opportunity to try polishing one side of the blade to see how it went. I'm currently cutting squares of sandpaper, dipping that into water then running it from heel to tip. After a couple strokes I rotate the square 90 degrees and repeat that till I've used all 4 sides of the sand paper square. Would take any advice on a better way to do this.

*Thoughts & Questions*
First thing I noticed was that the abrasive on the sandpaper runs off really quickly (maybe get a couple strokes in and had to switch parts of the paper). How many strokes is everyone getting from one particular section of sandpaper before switching?

I also had a hard time getting consistent pattern near the heel the rest of the blade is acceptable. I'm curious if anyone is using pieces of sandpaper large enough to encompass the whole blade? Any suggestions on how to get a more consistent pattern near the heel? A member suggested possibly using a popsicle stick, seems like that could work.

Apologies for the terrible lightning and iphone pictures. I will have to get a better angle shot tomorrow, but I'm pooped today.

Setup:






Unpolished Side:





Polished Side (up to 600 grit as a test run), some water on it:


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## dmccurtis

Looks good. You'll get more consistent results by knocking the handle off. Make long, straight strokes from tang to tip, in one direction only. Don't scrub back and forth. Backing the sandpaper with a soft but rigid material, like cork or dense rubber, will save some wear on your fingers.


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## mikedtran

dmccurtis said:


> Looks good. You'll get more consistent results by knocking the handle off. Make long, straight strokes from tang to tip, in one direction only. Don't scrub back and forth. Backing the sandpaper with a soft but rigid material, like cork or dense rubber, will save some wear on your fingers.



I only went heel to tip, so one direction only. My thumb is so sore and lightly torn up now =p. Do you suggest using a piece of sandpaper that covers the whole blade or just move a smaller piece around?

I will highly consider backing the sandpaper.


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## rick_english

mikedtran said:


> I only went heel to tip, so one direction only. My thumb is so sore and lightly torn up now =p. Do you suggest using a piece of sandpaper that covers the whole blade or just move a smaller piece around?
> 
> I will highly consider backing the sandpaper.



Following up on what dmccurtis said, I'd recommend taking some tips from this video: 

[video=youtube;9MIpilMOn2E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MIpilMOn2E[/video]

Clamp the blade, use an abrasive that's wider than the blade, lubricate with water+Dawn or WD40, start with a back-and-forth motion in the lower grits to build a foundation, finish with uni-directional pulls. I'm in the process of doing that with a knife I got on the forum B/S/T that used to belong to KC Ma. Here's a before picture:






And here's where it stands after 220 grit:






I'll probably take it to 600 or so.


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## mikedtran

So after watching the video, I decided to give it another go. I did find an extra magnetic knife rack which worked like a charm for holding the blade.

Still haven't found anything suitable to hold the sandpaper yet, which I feel I need. Lubricated with Tsubiki Oil.

Second Attempt up to 600 grit:


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## krx927

I use a piece of wooden stick on which I glued some felt. I cut the sand paper the same width as the felt and wrap it around. It works perfect - you can see it in the picture.

But nice tip for using old magnet rack for holding the knife. I was clamping it in (on the pic is western Akifusa). This works perfect for western handles and octagonal handles, but with D shaped it is a big problem -> you can not fix it good.


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## Asteger

krx927 said:


> I use a piece of wooden stick on which I glued some felt. I cut the sand paper the same width as the felt and wrap it around. It works perfect - you can see it in the picture.
> 
> But nice tip for using old magnet rack for holding the knife. I was clamping it in (on the pic is western Akifusa). This works perfect for western handles and octagonal handles, but with D shaped it is a big problem -> you can not fix it good.



Looks good :thumbsup:


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## Dave Martell

You guys with natural stones, don't forget to use your cork 'n mud for the final finish on kasumi bevels.


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## mikedtran

Just got a gifted uchi finger stone (from DDPslice) in and its HUGE! Really appreciate the amazing generosity =)

The stone measures 42mmx32mmx8mm.


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## mikedtran

Question about using Fingerstones: instead of glueing and creating a backing, can you instead create mud and use a cotton swab to apply it to the blade (will that have a similar effect)?


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## Smurfmacaw

mikedtran said:


> Question about using Fingerstones: instead of glueing and creating a backing, can you instead create mud and use a cotton swab to apply it to the blade (will that have a similar effect)?


Cotton swab?? I guess it would.....after about 40 hours lol. I think Maksim uses a nagura and then collects the mud and uses a cotton cloth to finish his for go even out any blotches. I've been pretty lucky and my finishes have come out pretty even if I use thin stones.


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## mikedtran

Haha I meant cotton balls* cotton swab would take forever!


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## Smurfmacaw

Here's what the stone looks like when thinned to working thickness. You should get something similar on Monday. No inclusion though, I sent you a clean piece. A piece this size should make between 9 and 12 fingerstones and each one will do two 180mm gyutos and still maybe have some thickness left if you had a really good finish prior to using a finger stone.


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## mikedtran

Awesome! Thanks smurf!

Has anyone used polishing stones from congresstools? I read on another knife forum that they can be used instead of sandpaper. Should arrive next week, will probably get around to using them in January after vacation and will report back =)


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## ynot1985

on the topic of finger stones... is there any where I can read up what is happening? I have seen maxim's 3 youtube clips but I don't understand what he is doing to prepare the finger stones...there's no instructions in the clips. I'm tempted to buy come finger stone but I want to know how to prepare it before I do so? can any tell me or direct me to a page that may explain the process?


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## mikedtran

ynot1985 said:


> on the topic of finger stones... is there any where I can read up what is happening? I have seen maxim's 3 youtube clips but I don't understand what he is doing to prepare the finger stones...there's no instructions in the clips. I'm tempted to buy come finger stone but I want to know how to prepare it before I do so? can any tell me or direct me to a page that may explain the process?



Maksim has this blog post that has a tiny bit more info.

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/finger-stones-how-to/


From what I gathered from this and from other forum members:
-Thin stones to about 1mm
-Glue tissue paper
-Thin stones to about 0.5mm
-Score the thin stone in a 1mmx1mm grid, and split on back of a spoon (this gives you a flexible web of stones)


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## aboynamedsuita

I'll probably end up starting a thread in sharpening station, but does anyone familiar with J-Nats know the pros/cons of using kiita vs uchigomori for finger stones? I got one of each from Maksim recently.


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## Smurfmacaw

ynot1985 said:


> on the topic of finger stones... is there any where I can read up what is happening? I have seen maxim's 3 youtube clips but I don't understand what he is doing to prepare the finger stones...there's no instructions in the clips. I'm tempted to buy come finger stone but I want to know how to prepare it before I do so? can any tell me or direct me to a page that may explain the process?



I did a very basic tutorial here http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-Finger-Stones?p=375760&viewfull=1#post375760

If i have the time this weekend I'll do a detailed thread on how exactly to prepare the stones. It's pretty easy, not nearly as hard as it seems. A set of inexpensive calipers from Harbor Freight helps a lot but you can just eyeball it, I'm sure that's how they did it in the 14th century. With no real effort I can keep the thickness of the stone to within .02mm. I'm sure I could build a jig to keep it even closer but I don't see any reason it needs to be that precise. The thinned, fractured stones do give much better results than a larger solid piece. I wish I had taken some pics of when I did the Carter.....it illustrated the benefits. If anyone has a Carter that want's a Kasumi finish, polish it to a mirror and send it to me, I'll put the fingerstone to it for free. I just sent my (wife's) Carter off for a cool rehandle so I won't see it for a couple of weeks.


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## aboynamedsuita

Does the Kasumi go well on a stainless clad HG carter or does it need to be carbon clad?


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## Smurfmacaw

tjangula said:


> Does the Kasumi go well on a stainless clad HG carter or does it need to be carbon clad?



Actually it looks pretty good. There's no clouds but it looks WAY better than Murray's 40 grit finish. I'm just not a fan of the big scratch finish.


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## aboynamedsuita

Smurfmacaw said:


> Actually it looks pretty good. There's no clouds but it looks WAY better than Murray's 40 grit finish. I'm just not a fan of the big scratch finish.



Cool, I should give it a shot with the ones I got from Maksim. Agree about that finish too, probably going to be a PITA to get them out, I'm polishing my ZK 52100 10" atm and that's a lot of work. Even after starting 180,400,600,15M,3M,0.5M I'm still not happy, must be because it's mono-steel, SS cladding is likely softer. Maybe I should get a felt wheel and use the Cr2O3 compound


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## daveb

P Tiger did a real nice job of this with a King 800. It's documented in a thread here somewhere.

Jon's Gesshin Aoto is designed with this work in mind. His site has a video of the stone in use. 


I've tried and liked both but it's a lot like work. I find I'm less upset with scratches now...


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## ynot1985

Thanks Mikedtran and Smurfmacaw.. time to do some reading


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## mikedtran

Finally back from vacation and spent about 1 hour polishing the blade up to 2k and then took it to the finger stones. I used a pre-thinned stone from smurfmacaw and I think I'm doing something wrong because it is leaving a lot of scratches. 

Am I just not taking enough time on it? 
Should I be more gentle?


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## buttermilk

What is your process on the way to finger stones? If your goal is to rid the blade of all stray scratches, you need to either go to a progressively coarser grit until no irregular scratches are seen, or be prepared to spend a significant amount of additional time at finer grits. Essentially, you don't want to move on to a finer grit until there are no remaining scratches visible from the previous grit. A technique that is worth mentioning, but one that I don't at all recommend for these purposes, is perpendicularly shifting the direction of scratch pattern as you move towards finer abrasives. In this case, you wouldn't have wanted to move past your starting grit until all the irregular and pre-existing scratches were removed.


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## mikedtran

Hey Sam!

I've been doing just heel to tip strokes going from 200->2000. I've been checking with a 30x loupe before for the scratches and it look very clean (I do about 15-30 passes on each grit). At 2000 even in bright florescent lightning I'm not catching any stray scratch marks. 

My issue is the finger stones are scratching the blade and I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong with the finger stones? Should the finger stones be scratching the blade at all?

*Picture of 1500 with some finger/oil smudges.


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## JBroida

depending on what finger stones you are using and how you are using them, the answer is yes, they are likely to scratch the blade a little bit.


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## Asteger

So, those swirly, loopy or wavy stratches where not there before you moved to the fingerstone? Can't tell from the photo above. 

I'd guess 2 things maybe. It's quite hard to polish really uniformly from heel to tip and not make errant waves or whirls or something. I'll struggle with this and try to use something to guide my hand somewhat, while the pros seem to have gizmos that help in this regard. (Would like to learn more about these.) But if those sratches are newly formed from the fingerstone, then looks like the stone has some impurity or rough edge to sort out as the scratches which jump are from more specific places, suggesting it's not the whole fingerstone. Also check if there are rough bits on the edge.

Incidentally, about uniform finish patterns - everyone likes a Shigefusa and the polish patterns they get are very much parallel, with the aid of an aforementioned gizmo (a kind of rack thing). I was happy to get a Shigehiro (ie. _not_ Shigefusa) yesterday with quite a nice finish, I think, and I like it because it seems a bit more 'human' or achievable to me, and so something that's more possible to maintain in time. The polish is very nice but not completely of uniform heel-to-tip perfect Shigefusa-style lines. It looks more handmade in a good way and doesn't make me feel inadequate like a Shigefusa would. The lines nearest the spine are parallel to that, with most more parallel to the edge, and they come together towards the tip. (I imagine he gets the pattern near the spine first, and then near the edge.) Took a photo before first use and maybe you can see what I'm thinking of:


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## mikedtran

Asteger said:


> So, those swirly, loopy or wavy stratches where not there before you moved to the fingerstone? Can't tell from the photo above.
> 
> I'd guess 2 things maybe. It's quite hard to polish really uniformly from heel to tip and not make errant waves or whirls or something. I'll struggle with this and try to use something to guide my hand somewhat, while the pros seem to have gizmos that help in this regard. (Would like to learn more about these.) But if those sratches are newly formed from the fingerstone, then looks like the stone has some impurity or rough edge to sort out as the scratches which jump are from more specific places, suggesting it's not the whole fingerstone. Also check if there are rough bits on the edge.



I made a little "gizmo" which is really just a knife hard piece of felt that I wrap the sand paper around to get really straight lines. 

No swirls in the blade before the finger stone. I can actually actively see the fingerstone scratching the blade as I polish. It seems to primarily happen in the first couple passes so I might just need to run the fingerstone on a high grit stone 6000+ for more strokes before hitting the blade?

This is my blade at 320 grit (Might be blasphemy, but I kind of like the satin finish around 600-800):


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## Smurfmacaw

I've found that the less pressure you use the better. It seems to work best (for me anyway) to get a good base of mud and just glide the fingerstone around kind of floating it in the mud. Maksim pretty much said it with the "not too wet and not too dry" mantra. If it feels gritty stop, wash the fingerstone and maybe hit it on a very fine stone to make sure there are no "chunks". I do wonder if using a synthetic stone could be detrimental since the abrasive is apparently more three dimensional as compared to the "flakes" of a natural stone.

Also, I found that if you make any sort of circular motion in you polishing it'll give you swirlies. I go back and forth in about 1 inch strokes moving up only a microscopic amount to do the vertical section of the blade starting at the top, working to the bottom and then back to the top. Then I just extend the next stroke on the top about 3/4 of an inch and repeat until I've done the whole blade and back. Every pass is lighter and lighter until it's literally just floating the stone in the mud. A thick but not dry consistency is best. It will turn black so you know it's cutting metal. Finally I use long, no pressure strokes the length of the blade ensuring there is no vertical movements. 

I'll try to post a close up of the Carter I did. It came out pretty decent. 

What I'm wondering is if the puffballs in sword maintenance kits that supposedly contain Uchimagori powder might be a good source of powdered natural stone for the final evening out of the finish....I just need to find someone I can trust that sells them (I think some are just filled with talcum powder rather than powdered Uchi.)

Bottom line though it looks like you are making U-turns with the stones rather strictly back and forth to get those particular scratches. How Shig does it to get the misty look and a nearly mirror finish if still kind of a mystery....but then I haven't been doing it professionally for 50+ years either.


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## mikedtran

Smurfmacaw said:


> I've found that the less pressure you use the better. It seems to work best (for me anyway) to get a good base of mud and just glide the fingerstone around kind of floating it in the mud. Maksim pretty much said it with the "not too wet and not too dry" mantra. If it feels gritty stop, wash the fingerstone and maybe hit it on a very fine stone to make sure there are no "chunks". I do wonder if using a synthetic stone could be detrimental since the abrasive is apparently more three dimensional as compared to the "flakes" of a natural stone.
> 
> Also, I found that if you make any sort of circular motion in you polishing it'll give you swirlies. I go back and forth in about 1 inch strokes moving up only a microscopic amount to do the vertical section of the blade starting at the top, working to the bottom and then back to the top. Then I just extend the next stroke on the top about 3/4 of an inch and repeat until I've done the whole blade and back. Every pass is lighter and lighter until it's literally just floating the stone in the mud. A thick but not dry consistency is best. It will turn black so you know it's cutting metal. Finally I use long, no pressure strokes the length of the blade ensuring there is no vertical movements.
> 
> I'll try to post a close up of the Carter I did. It came out pretty decent.
> 
> You are spot on in that I'm 100% making u-turns and swirling the stone as I didn't originally think that it would scratch the blade...and it definitely did =p
> 
> What I'm wondering is if the puffballs in sword maintenance kits that supposedly contain Uchimagori powder might be a good source of powdered natural stone for the final evening out of the finish....I just need to find someone I can trust that sells them (I think some are just filled with talcum powder rather than powdered Uchi.)
> 
> Bottom line though it looks like you are making U-turns with the stones rather strictly back and forth to get those particular scratches. How Shig does it to get the misty look and a nearly mirror finish if still kind of a mystery....but then I haven't been doing it professionally for 50+ years either.



Great tip! I think I was really rushing it and applying too much pressure.

You are spot on in that I was swirling and making u-turns as I didn't think the stone would scratch the blade...which it definitely did =p 

Also during the scoring and flexible of the stone I found I lose some bits? Does this happen to you? Probably again not being gentle enough in flexing it over the spoon.

Thanks again for all the tips and generosity =)


----------



## Smurfmacaw

mikedtran said:


> Great tip! I think I was really rushing it and applying too much pressure.
> 
> You are spot on in that I was swirling and making u-turns as I didn't think the stone would scratch the blade...which it definitely did =p
> 
> Also during the scoring and flexible of the stone I found I lose some bits? Does this happen to you? Probably again not being gentle enough in flexing it over the spoon.
> 
> Thanks again for all the tips and generosity =)



Just push once on the spoon. That will make it flexible enough. I'm looking at trying a new adhesive though as the epoxy doesn't stick as well as I'd like but that could be a product of it being a soft "flaky" stone in the first place. Also, last two stones I made I had an issue with the epoxy setting way harder than it had previously. I'm going to look at a different cement once I get some time to see if I can get stones where you don't have to be really delicate with. Maybe Jon can weigh in on better adhesives (that are obtainable outside of the sword polishing community in Japan.)


----------



## Asteger

mikedtran said:


> You are spot on in that I was swirling and making u-turns as I didn't think the stone would scratch the blade...which it definitely did =p
> 
> Also during the scoring and flexible of the stone I found I lose some bits? Does this happen to you? Probably again not being gentle enough in flexing it over the spoon.



Even if they don't 'scratch' you can't swirl around as though you're using a washing sponge  Follow the polish pattern you want. Definitely, I'll get some loose bits too and when you've thinned down the stone it's pretty fragile and stuff breaks off, though if the stone's of regular quality there shouldn't be any deep scratches


----------



## Smurfmacaw

Here's a quickie refinish I did on one of my Shigs....this knife has been through hell, inexpert sharpenings, scotchbrite pads, barkeeps friend, broken tip, thinned etc. Light pressure, plenty of mud and patience. I think it would have come out better if I had taken it to a full mirror polish prior to the fingerstones but this came out more than acceptable. (Ignore the schmutz on the higane....it was early in the morning and I missed some lint.)


----------



## MAS4T0

Smurfmacaw said:


> Here's a quickie refinish I did on one of my Shigs....this knife has been through hell, inexpert sharpenings, scotchbrite pads, barkeeps friend, broken tip, thinned etc. Light pressure, plenty of mud and patience. I think it would have come out better if I had taken it to a full mirror polish prior to the fingerstones but this came out more than acceptable. (Ignore the schmutz on the higane....it was early in the morning and I missed some lint.)



Wow! That looks great.

How long did it take and what grit/ stone progression did you use?


----------



## mikedtran

Asteger said:


> Even if they don't 'scratch' you can't swirl around as though you're using a washing sponge  Follow the polish pattern you want. Definitely, I'll get some loose bits too and when you've thinned down the stone it's pretty fragile and stuff breaks off, though if the stone's of regular quality there shouldn't be any deep scratches



The scratches are quite shallow they come out with 1000 grit sandpaper real easily. So my guess is I probably just need to go over it with less pressure and more patience?


----------



## Smurfmacaw

MAS4T0 said:


> Wow! That looks great.
> 
> How long did it take and what grit/ stone progression did you use?



Basically it went 100, 150, 220, 320, 400, 800, 1500, 2000 and then the fingerstone (Jazuya I think they are). Next time I'll probably take it to 8000 and polish out with compound (diamond and CBN) to .25 micron for a mirror finish. I'm not sure how the cladding would react to that but it seems like the Damascus has layers of harder and softer steels and the harder (i.e. lighter colored parts) polishes up more and would stand out more if polished better. You can see that the edge wasn't affected by the fingerstones at all, still shiny even though I made no effort to keep the fingerstone away from the hagane.

The fingerstone part was pretty quick, it was getting the grind marks from thinning out that was time consuming.


----------



## Andrew

Smurfmacaw said:


> Basically it went 100, 150, 220, 320, 400, 800, 1500, 2000 and then the fingerstone (Jazuya I think they are). Next time I'll probably take it to 8000 and polish out with compound (diamond and CBN) to .25 micron for a mirror finish. I'm not sure how the cladding would react to that but it seems like the Damascus has layers of harder and softer steels and the harder (i.e. lighter colored parts) polishes up more and would stand out more if polished better. You can see that the edge wasn't affected by the fingerstones at all, still shiny even though I made no effort to keep the fingerstone away from the hagane.
> 
> The fingerstone part was pretty quick, it was getting the grind marks from thinning out that was time consuming.



I don't know how much time you spent, but man that shig looks awesome!


----------



## DDPslice

I think if you see the old scratches it's because you didn't either go low enough on grit and/or didn't get the uniform scratch pattern before moving up grit progression. 

Unless it's the edge everything from above the primary bevel up to the spine is done with a slurry and wet/dry sandpaper progression. I make a slurry on my 1200 king with a 1200 grit pad, go over the knife then create slurry with a 3000 and 4000. Then make a slurry with 4K stone with a 4K pad then slurry with 6k, 8k pads and so on...all the way until you are mirror polishing. Then go back with a very thin flattened (on a stone or pad) piece of the uchi stone. You know when your finished when the knife is dry and still looks like it is wet (looks like it has a clear coat of nail polish/ varnish i.e. Has a depth in the metal). I've found that this uchigumori set gives a reflection on my knives like a billion microscopic glittering rainbow stars. 

With the uchigumori also requires you to make slurry on the knife. Like other stones they can contain impurities which may scratch the knife which can drive you insane but if you move in an even pattern you shouldn't have uneven scratches like in the pic. 

Polishing a knife takes fore.ever. Especially for me as a novice. Sometimes it'll take me all day and then some.

When I spend a lot of time I feel like im taking off all the metal but I personally think having such a good knife allows me to 
keep working on my technique because when I do a god job the knife will show it. 

Also read more on sword polishing and take it slow.


----------



## mikedtran

DDPslice said:


> I think if you see the old scratches it's because you didn't either go low enough on grit and/or didn't get the uniform scratch pattern before moving up grit progression.
> 
> Unless it's the edge everything from above the primary bevel up to the spine is done with a slurry and wet/dry sandpaper progression. I make a slurry on my 1200 king with a 1200 grit pad, go over the knife then create slurry with a 3000 and 4000. Then make a slurry with 4K stone with a 4K pad then slurry with 6k, 8k pads and so on...all the way until you are mirror polishing. Then go back with a very thin flattened (on a stone or pad) piece of the uchi stone. You know when your finished when the knife is dry and still looks like it is wet (looks like it has a clear coat of nail polish/ varnish i.e. Has a depth in the metal). I've found that this uchigumori set gives a reflection on my knives like a billion microscopic glittering rainbow stars.
> 
> Polishing a knife takes fore.ever. Especially for me as a novice. Sometimes it'll take me all day and then some.
> 
> When I spend a lot of time I feel like im taking off all the metal but I personally think having such a good knife allows me to
> keep working on my technique because when I do a god job the knife will show it.
> 
> Also read more on sword polishing and take it slow.



That is some serious dedication. I would love to see some pictures of this!

Also question on the stone you gave me which is HUGE!!!! It almost seems like a waste to flatten it down as it is so thick? Do you have a method for breaking it down or do you just flatten the thick piece into one very thin piece?


----------



## Asteger

I've spent several hours on knives just to do a 'rough' job, usually after some thinning work. However, it's just too much time and so I prefer more maintainable knives/finishes, like Heiji for eg, i also converted my old Kato to a kasumi for this reason.


----------



## DDPslice

I have some really old pics but I'll try and take some new photos soon. But cameras can never really capture the true nature of the knife. As for making hazuya/juzuya chips is pretty easy. Take a flat head or chizel and hammer and split/chip very thin pieces off. That piece I gave you is thick enough to give you tons of chips and used correctly and also by saving the slurry and drying out and saving the dust, should last you for many years.


----------



## DDPslice

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/togi,process.html


----------



## mikedtran

*Yesterday* 
I was feeling quite defeated after 1-2 hours of polishing and then having scratches from the finger stones. I had almost given up on a Kasumi finish. Was just going to go with a 800 or 1000 satin finish.

*Today*
These responses have reinvigorated me significantly and I attempted to Kasumi one side of the blade (very jet lagged now so can't complete now), but the results are much better. No serious scratches. 

I did not prep the stones at all really. I just knocked off chips and then flattened them on a ATOMA 400. This seems to work alright though the pieces are quite small so the polishing will take quite a while =p

*Forward*
Going forward I think I want the blade to be even more polished before touching the finger stones. Today I went with a 1000 grit then to the stones. I currently have only up to 2k sand paper, I need to source some 3k and 5k sandpaper if I really want to get to mirror polish.

*Feedback and comments very welcome! =)*

Pictures of effort on part of the knife. Will try to finish up this weekend:


----------



## YG420

I just ordered a set of micro mesh pads from amazon, hopefully they will work on some of my knives..


----------



## Asteger

mikedtran said:


> *Yesterday* ... I was feeling quite defeated after 1-2 hours of polishing



Enough to watch a couple shows or a sports event of your choice

My tip: learn to do it while watching tv. About the only time I'll watch something is when I do something like this, and visa versa.

I believe this approach was a favourite of the ancient masters in Japan


----------



## mikedtran

DDPslice said:


> I think if you see the old scratches it's because you didn't either go low enough on grit and/or didn't get the uniform scratch pattern before moving up grit progression.
> 
> Unless it's the edge everything from above the primary bevel up to the spine is done with a slurry and wet/dry sandpaper progression. I make a slurry on my 1200 king with a 1200 grit pad, go over the knife then create slurry with a 3000 and 4000. Then make a slurry with 4K stone with a 4K pad then slurry with 6k, 8k pads and so on...all the way until you are mirror polishing. Then go back with a very thin flattened (on a stone or pad) piece of the uchi stone. You know when your finished when the knife is dry and still looks like it is wet (looks like it has a clear coat of nail polish/ varnish i.e. Has a depth in the metal). I've found that this uchigumori set gives a reflection on my knives like a billion microscopic glittering rainbow stars.
> 
> With the uchigumori also requires you to make slurry on the knife. Like other stones they can contain impurities which may scratch the knife which can drive you insane but if you move in an even pattern you shouldn't have uneven scratches like in the pic.
> 
> Polishing a knife takes fore.ever. Especially for me as a novice. Sometimes it'll take me all day and then some.



Question on what kind of pads are you using? I saw the scotchbrite pads but they only go up to about ~1.5k. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CQ6I7G/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)


----------



## mikedtran

Asteger said:


> Enough to watch a couple shows or a sports event of your choice
> 
> My tip: learn to do it while watching tv. About the only time I'll watch something is when I do something like this, and visa versa.
> 
> I believe this approach was a favourite of the ancient masters in Japan



Hahahha I will have to try that!

I actually find the polishing at least right now quite tranquil, almost a type of meditation.


----------



## Asteger

mikedtran said:


> Hahahha I will have to try that! I actually find the polishing at least right now quite tranquil, almost a type of meditation.



Music works quite well too, but I get bored of staring at a blade for 2 hours. So something on the screen that I don't have to pay real attention to is a traditional technique


----------



## DDPslice

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001ENXHOI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

That's what I have 8.5/10 pretty good but not perfect, great for polishing.

If you like the "satin" finish you can go strait to the 8k,10k,12k pads then go over with the uchigumori. A clearer finish can achieved by creating a slurry with your 2k grit stone then using the same slurry from he previous pad and starting your grit progression with the pads but you should definitely invest in a 4K/6k, 8k, and 10k/12k stones. 

Really if you have enough to invest in a shig then you shouldnt be buying synthetic stones. In order to have the equipment to properly maintain the quality of knife you have Jnats bring out the luster and sheen easily. And finding the right Jnats for your knife would require help from broida or maxim. The links I have previously posted relate most of this info. 


Also a place with good info
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/jns-wiki/


----------



## mikedtran

DDPslice said:


> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001ENXHOI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> That's what I have 8.5/10 pretty good but not perfect, great for polishing.
> 
> If you like the "satin" finish you can go strait to the 8k,10k,12k pads then go over with the uchigumori. A clearer finish can achieved by creating a slurry with your 2k grit stone then using the same slurry from he previous pad and starting your grit progression with the pads but you should definitely invest in a 4K/6k, 8k, and 10k/12k stones.
> 
> Really if you have enough to invest in a shig then you shouldnt be buying synthetic stones. In order to have the equipment to properly maintain the quality of knife you have Jnats bring out the luster and sheen easily. And finding the right Jnats for your knife would require help from broida or maxim. The links I have previously posted relate most of this info.
> 
> 
> Also a place with good info
> http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/jns-wiki/



You are really making me think my next purchase should be a couple good/decent natural stones instead of a knife.

This feels like going down the rabbit hole/the next progression into a tangential/symbiotic obsession.


----------



## Andrew

Just a quick question on the kasumi finish and all this polishing... are you guys going through this level of work for user knives? Or said another way, do you use the knives after you've polished them up?

I'm still new to this, learning how to get a decent hazy finish instead of the belt sanded finish some of the knives came with, but I haven't gone crazy far and am not worried if I then goof it up on the stones.


----------



## DDPslice

@Mike
Like most hobbies you cant just buy and helmet and be content. Though when I say easy, doesn't mean that its still not hard and requires time to develop the skills/technique and feel for the work, just that you will be able to obtain the image that you had in mind for you knife. I only have my mizuno and ealy parer, my other knives are "cheap"/durable hard working knives, but hell I even debone with my mizuno that beauty is STRONG, though to be fare my de-boning is more like surgery then cutting through bones. 

READ READ READ, the most powerful tool in your rep is having the knowledge to apply to the tools, as this one Jamaican lady used to say to me "work smarter not harder". 

@Andrew
Im not in a pro kitchen so I polish whenever it doesn't feel as smooth as I would like. I don't know what the pro's do and how often. As I stumble through this world of Zen perfection it reflects on my knives. JBroida's and others videos are really helpful.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

Just a point of clarification, a kasumi finish has to do with the contrast between the hagane and jigane. What is being discussed is polishing the blade face, not restoring a kasumi finish.


----------



## mikedtran

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Just a point of clarification, a kasumi finish has to do with the contrast between the hagane and jigane. What is being discussed is polishing the blade face, not restoring a kasumi finish.



After the polishing though taking a finger stone to the blade will darken the cladding and create contrast as the hard core steel won't haze. 

Is that correctly characterizing the Kasumi finish?


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

mikedtran said:


> After the polishing though taking a finger stone to the blade will darken the cladding and create contrast as the hard core steel won't haze.
> 
> Is that correctly characterizing the Kasumi finish?



Maybe this video by Maxim will help:

[video=youtube;uzMFzDPfsws]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzMFzDPfsws[/video]


----------



## Smurfmacaw

mikedtran said:


> You are really making me think my next purchase should be a couple good/decent natural stones instead of a knife.
> 
> This feels like going down the rabbit hole/the next progression into a tangential/symbiotic obsession.



I hear you on that! Knife or stone? Stone or knife? .......


----------



## Smurfmacaw

Andrew said:


> Just a quick question on the kasumi finish and all this polishing... are you guys going through this level of work for user knives? Or said another way, do you use the knives after you've polished them up?
> 
> I'm still new to this, learning how to get a decent hazy finish instead of the belt sanded finish some of the knives came with, but I haven't gone crazy far and am not worried if I then goof it up on the stones.


It all depends. To me it's a hobby so I don't mind spending the time and effort to learn to make the knives look good. That way I don't mind using them because I know I can get it looking good again if I so desire. Edge retention to me is pretty moot, I have the luxury of sharpening anytime I want and my knives never really get dull since I sharpen (or at least touch up) after I use them and don't spend long periods of time chopping things. I'm sure someone who makes their living with their knife has a totally different perspective...like does the edge last an entire shift (or more) without having to take time (aka money) to resharpen and is the knife easy to use for long periods etc. 

I just enjoy learning something new....my wife says I obsess....like I said, it's a hobby.


----------



## Asteger

mikedtran said:


> After the polishing though taking a finger stone to the blade will darken the cladding and create contrast as the hard core steel won't haze.
> Is that correctly characterizing the Kasumi finish?



Kasumi just describes misty/cloudy/haziness and can be used as such and I don't think has to be limited to ha/jigane contrast, so I disagree with PT above. I've seen kasumi used flexibly by Japanese, for example, and so if you create a hazy polish somewhere then call this kasumi too if you want. You might also hear things like kasumi-to for a stone that'll give kasumi, or hon-kasumi for a traditional, nat-stone polish. 

You can get kasumi with fingerstones, sure, or polishing with slurry or powder anywhere on the blade, or using your sharpening stones on the edge. You'd probably expect 'kasumi finishes' from sharpening stones to come from nat stones and show the polished-to-hazy hagane-to-jigane contrast PT is thinking of, but I'm sure people will refer to 'kasumi' they've got through certain synth stones as well. 

There's even a line of (I think) Seki-type knives named 'Kasumi' probably just because it's a nice, poetic sort of word in Japanese.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

Asteger said:


> Kasumi just describes misty/cloudy/haziness and can be used as such and I don't think has to be limited to ha/jigane contrast, so I disagree with PT above. I've seen kasumi used flexibly by Japanese, for example, and so if you create a hazy polish somewhere then call this kasumi too if you want. You might also hear things like kasumi-to for a stone that'll give kasumi, or hon-kasumi for a traditional, nat-stone polish.
> 
> You can get kasumi with fingerstones, sure, or polishing with slurry or powder anywhere on the blade, or using your sharpening stones on the edge. You'd probably expect 'kasumi finishes' from sharpening stones to come from nat stones and show the polished-to-hazy hagane-to-jigane contrast PT is thinking of, but I'm sure people will refer to 'kasumi' they've got through certain synth stones as well.
> 
> There's even a line of (I think) Seki-type knives named 'Kasumi' probably just because it's a nice, poetic sort of word in Japanese.



Fair enough. I've not the experience of actually having the term used by a native language speaker, so I will bow to your explanation.


----------



## Yamabushi

Asteger is correct on this. In Japanese_ kasumi_ is literally fog or haze and is not knife specific terminology.


----------



## DDPslice

From a previous thread about kasumi

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/archive/index.php/t-17976.html
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/1832-Gritbox®?highlight=sacrilege


----------



## mikedtran

I'm actually curious for pictures of "best" or "high-quality" Kasumi. I have a used Shig so I don't know what the original Kasumi finished looked like.

What I'm attempting to get is a reflection under a darker haze.


----------



## DDPslice

I think you might be bewildered in your attempts because when most people post pictures, they want to give the best impression and not the show the actual look under normal circumstances. I listed the sword polishing links to show the means and techniques in which for you to see how it's done and how those polishers achieved their results. There are pros that this site recommends, and they do great work from what I've seen on previous threads and you can send your shig to them and im sure you'll be able to see your knife at its best. A knife made by a sword craftsman goes through some of the same rigors and polishers want to accentuate the natural lines created by the forager and the characteristics of the metal. To be frank, it requires many attempts and the correct usage of the stone and an alignment between your technique and familiarity, the stone and the knife. A certain aspect of realism comes into play after your feet are tired, hands are raw and your back is aching; a pristine polish on the knife isn't worth it every time you refine the edge. Or get it done by yourself or a pro and taking extra good care to not scratch or blemish the face. That is up to you. I still am to this day working on my own technique and finding good stones for my knives to achieve the best polish. This is a hobby that requires a lot of (first and foremost) knowledge, patience and stamina. If you have specific questions that can't be found on the world wide google and/or found on this site (and there is A LOT of information on this site by people asking the same questions), I'm here to help but it seems you need to take time to understand some of the same problems your running into have already been discussed in previous threads.

Tl;dr slow down, practice achieves the best results. Uchi stone is what I've seen helps achieve the dark haze, a 12k pad after will help bring out a semi-gloss reflection.


----------



## DDPslice

As promised pics of mine, of a kasumi finish (warning photo heavy). Please forgive my terrible pictures, I've been putting of any photography classes for ages, I guess I should go...

Going all the way through:

Starting with the beaten and battered:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25YjFxbXh3R0VpaDQ/view?usp=sharing"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25YjFxbXh3R0VpaDQ/view?usp=sharing"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25YjFxbXh3R0VpaDQ/view?usp=sharing

800 King: I've decided to not take off all that metal at once and even it out quickly so you can see the high and low spots easily
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25R1ZUMUpPeXgybms"]https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25R1ZUMUpPeXgybms"]https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25R1ZUMUpPeXgybms

1200
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25d3JsajVsRy05SW8
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25UEVWbjJRbE81U0E

Koppa, really odd stone for the knife, it gives such as nice hazy polish (but rough/dry to touch) but has very small hard grains that gash through the jigane. however it brings out a REALLY nice metal work on the hagane. The picture of the heel in no way gives justice to how it looks. (wavy)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25UEVWbjJRbE81U0E
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25V1lTOXgtdGxydGc

choil shot
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25SDRzd0NYcjZQQ3c

4k on just the ha, but also I used slurry from my mejiro and a 10k soft pad to brighten up the ji just for fun
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25SWNDb210SndGZm8

skipped the iromono and went to the 12k and uchi with a 12k pad and bicarb
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25aWU1YkFQdG9PNTA

And then more time with the uchi and 12k pad: knives got a little dirty, but ehh I was tired :/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25blM2X184cURtX3VBeU9KYjJ1RW9tOHplOWRV/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25STlCZDFUTHhscVlIdDVrSXVydUdFQWdSYjY4/view?usp=sharing

sorry about all the links i dont seem to remember how to post pictures directly


----------



## krx927

Can you please just mention how much time you spent on this?


----------



## DDPslice

about 2-3 hours from start to finish, if i tried to make better more even scratch marks, cleaning up the line between the ji and ha, it would have taken longer.


----------



## Badgertooth

Just thought I'd pop this on as a nod to this thread as just about everything I did to get the finish to where it is is gleaned from here. Not perfect, but not hopeless either. 
Naniwa 220
Imanishi 400
Chosera 1K
Chosera 3K
Aoto
Takenoko 8K
Maruoyama shiro suita
Oohira renge suita
Medium and fine scourer 200 thru 1200 wet&dry 
Uchigumori fingerstone with 20k aluminium oxide powder
Cotton balls with uchi and Shinden suita slurry


----------



## Badgertooth




----------



## mikedtran

Badgertooth said:


> Just thought I'd pop this on as a nod to this thread as just about everything I did to get the finish to where it is is gleaned from here. Not perfect, but not hopeless either.
> Naniwa 220
> Imanishi 400
> Chosera 1K
> Chosera 3K
> Aoto
> Takenoko 8K
> Maruoyama shiro suita
> Oohira renge suita
> Medium and fine scourer 200 thru 1200 wet&dry
> Uchigumori fingerstone with 20k aluminium oxide powder
> Cotton balls with uchi and Shinden suita slurry



Looks great!

Where did you source 20k aluminium oxide powder from?

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## Asteger

Looks good to me. Hard to see things exactly in the photos, but it has to be a finer finish than the original, no?


----------



## Badgertooth

Asteger said:


> Looks good to me. Hard to see things exactly in the photos, but it has to be a finer finish than the original, no?



Yes.... And no. There's one or two places where bad technique and figuring it out while I'm doing it lets the final finish down. My lines aren't as perfectly horizontal from heel to tip as OOTB. Also I'd like to better blend my thinning line with cladding which is visible in both photos. Tip is a little bit all over the show too. A luta continua.


----------



## Asteger

Badgertooth said:


> My lines aren't as perfectly horizontal from heel to tip as OOTB. Also I'd like to better blend my thinning line with cladding which is visible in both photos. Tip is a little bit all over the show too. A luta continua.



Oh yeah, that line aspect is the hardest - and they use some sort of contraption for it in the workshop that we'll never have, of course. As for the thinning 'shadow' (different texture, looks darker towards the edge in the photos) I know what you mean. Actually, I think they can look good this way too, but if you want to kill it you'll just have to polish it more toward the edge and wear away your efforts with your nice jnat finishers that you thought would endure. Use the sandpaper, fingerstones, etc, and polishing near the edge, and just use your finisher on the hagane and a bit above, like when the knife comes new.


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## DDPslice

looking good, but unless your redefining or changing/lengthening your bevel each time you sharpen you don't have to go lower then 1000 (or you're taking out some serious chips), and when polishing up just stick to polishing side of the spectrum (>4000) unless you have scratches that you need to go deeper for. I'd stick the 20k powder with a cotton pad/sponge/silk after the uchi instead of with because the uchi will darken the ji and the 20k will smooth it out and lighten it just a little. And use the uchi with some baking soda(makes it lighter) or its own slurry (makes it darker) and or both. 

for me what I worry about is what works for me. my tip is really thin and my heel is really thick and my bevel line is nowhere near strait and I've learned to use that to my advantage rather then waste effort making aesthetics my priority.

Some of the most frustrating things for me is, even though your technique may be perfect the stone isn't too friendly with the knife and no matter then skill or effort you can get close but pulling the beauty of the metal depends of finding the stone that works with the knife, so I mainly stick mainly to getting that screaming sharp edge and like butter slice. 

Nice pics, glad to see you(r) progress.


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## mikedtran

Where would one source 20k Aluminum Oxide powder? I checked google / amazon / ebay and really must be failing?

Any thoughts on if there is a better powder for polishing than 20k Aluminum Oxide powder?


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## Badgertooth

DDPslice said:


> looking good, but unless your redefining or changing/lengthening your bevel each time you sharpen you don't have to go lower then 1000 (or you're taking out some serious chips), and when polishing up just stick to polishing side of the spectrum (>4000) unless you have scratches that you need to go deeper for. I'd stick the 20k powder with a cotton pad/sponge/silk after the uchi instead of with because the uchi will darken the ji and the 20k will smooth it out and lighten it just a little. And use the uchi with some baking soda(makes it lighter) or its own slurry (makes it darker) and or both.
> 
> for me what I worry about is what works for me. my tip is really thin and my heel is really thick and my bevel line is nowhere near strait and I've learned to use that to my advantage rather then waste effort making aesthetics my priority.
> 
> Some of the most frustrating things for me is, even though your technique may be perfect the stone isn't too friendly with the knife and no matter then skill or effort you can get close but pulling the beauty of the metal depends of finding the stone that works with the knife, so I mainly stick mainly to getting that screaming sharp edge and like butter slice.
> 
> Nice pics, glad to see you(r) progress.



This was a great post, thank you. I was lengthening the bevel a bit to get past some hesitation it had in denser ingredients and when I was happy with the geometry I was terrified by the finish, thinking I'd thunderf*cked a perfectly good Shig. Hence a trip to the hardware for scrubbies and wet 'n dry. I think I will keep the uchi and WA separate as you mention and try applying the WA with a soft substrate. Keen to try the baking soda.


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## Badgertooth

mikedtran said:


> Where would one source 20k Aluminum Oxide powder? I checked google / amazon / ebay and really must be failing?
> 
> Any thoughts on if there is a better powder for polishing than 20k Aluminum Oxide powder?



Got mine from a guy who did some work at a metal fabricators. Search "WA powder 2000" seems to return a few hits in the states


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## DDPslice

Badgertooth said:


> This was a great post, thank you. I was lengthening the bevel a bit to get past some hesitation it had in denser ingredients and when I was happy with the geometry I was terrified by the finish, thinking I'd thunderf*cked a perfectly good Shig. Hence a trip to the hardware for scrubbies and wet 'n dry. I think I will keep the uchi and WA separate as you mention and try applying the WA with a soft substrate. Keen to try the baking soda.



No matter how deep you go a good polishing will always bring out craftsmanship of the shig. Japanese knives and swords are meant to last a lifetime of sharpening (or several with good care and attention) so don't be afraid, but also don't go crazy. 

Im about to pick up my second set from amazon 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ELH7AI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Badgertooth

Yup, getting mine from a local pen making place. And I agree, I think I'm a custodian of a Shig more than an owner


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## Matus

Those pads are great, but they start at 1200 grit what may be a little too much, or so I wonder.


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## Badgertooth

Yup but scale 2.5 to get it back to sandpaper grits




> Coloured Micro Mesh polishing pad set.
> 
> Set includes 9 grits: 1500, 1800, 2400, 3200, 3600, 4000, 6000, 8000 and 12000.
> 
> Where 1500 is slightly coarser than normal 600 grit paper.


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## Matus

Thanks for the info!


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## Badgertooth

WIP testing micromesh and DDP's baking soda trick. Also concentrated more on keeping the lines straight:


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## YG420

Badgertooth said:


> WIP testing micromesh and DDP's baking soda trick. Also concentrated more on keeping the lines straight:


Lookin good! What grit on the micro mesh did you use? Was the baking soda used as paste?


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## Badgertooth

I erm... Went through the entire rainbow. Then paste of baking soda with uchi fingerstone


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## DDPslice

what's the core metal made out of?


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## Badgertooth

Some proprietary Swedish steel of undisclosed composition


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## Asteger

Badger, as is usual you've got that different kind of texture/darkness on the wider bevel. You might try using the same slurry from your final stone (and even also the earlier stones) to polish beyond the bevel. Might get a more uniform look.

On the other hand, the finish doesn't need to be uniform. Matter of taste.


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## Badgertooth

Asteger said:


> Badger, as is usual you've got that different kind of texture/darkness on the wider bevel. You might try using the same slurry from your final stone (and even also the earlier stones) to polish beyond the bevel. Might get a more uniform look.
> 
> On the other hand, the finish doesn't need to be uniform. Matter of taste.



Yeah, I think it's because with the initial sharpening a few weeks ago I used a pretty tight progression for scratch deletion and ended up with a very polished bevel without the foresight to keep a bit of slurry from each stone. So I'll try and use the same progression on another wide-bevel and keep some slurry. 

As an aside, I saw on the JNS that WA powder is best used with camellia oil and I tried it... Vastly different and more refined finish than using it with water. Which poses an interesting question: what would happen if you used stone slurry with camellia oil?


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## mikedtran

Badgertooth said:


> Yeah, I think it's because with the initial sharpening a few weeks ago I used a pretty tight progression for scratch deletion and ended up with a very polished bevel without the foresight to keep a bit of slurry from each stone. So I'll try and use the same progression on another wide-bevel and keep some slurry.
> 
> As an aside, I saw on the JNS that WA powder is best used with camellia oil and I tried it... Vastly different and more refined finish than using it with water. Which poses an interesting question: what would happen if you used stone slurry with camellia oil?



On the camellia oil note. I do all my sanding with camellia oil, no water. I prefer the feel much more.


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## Pensacola Tiger

mikedtran said:


> On the camellia oil note. I do all my sanding with camellia oil, no water. I prefer the feel much more.



Mobil 1 works just as well and is quite a bit less expensive.


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## daveb

Amsoil?


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## panda

fryer oil, foodsafe


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## DDPslice

I like to use slurry, with jnats (any stone) the slurry partials are meant to break down finer and finer. Also when I'm on my finishing polish 8k+ I will go over the entire knife, it just leaves it silky smooth. And I test the smoothness as a wipe it with a cloth in my hands. When it slips through I know I'm done.

also please only use food safe items unless you are a chemist.


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## Asteger

Badgertooth said:


> As an aside, I saw on the JNS that WA powder is best used with camellia oil and I tried it... Vastly different and more refined finish than using it with water. Which poses an interesting question: what would happen if you used stone slurry with camellia oil?



I haven't tried WA with camellia, tho maybe with mineral oil. I've tried nat stone powder (uchigumori) with oil and preferred my usual water method, I think as it was easier to see and keep track of progress. 

Problem with using oil with your stone slurry, if you don't have powder, then how will avoid oiling up your stones? Usually you'll generate some slurry with some means, and you won't use oil for that, and then you'll apply the slurry to the knife. To me the oil method only works if you have powder, natural or otherwise.


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## DDPslice

DDPslice said:


> I like to use slurry, with jnats (any stone) the slurry partials are meant to break down finer and finer. Also when I'm on my finishing polish 8k+ I will go over the entire knife, it just leaves it silky smooth. And I test the smoothness as a wipe it with a cloth in my hands. When it slips through I know I'm done.
> 
> also please only use food safe items unless you are a chemist.



apologies * i don't use any oil, just water


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## Badgertooth

Asteger said:


> I haven't tried WA with camellia, tho maybe with mineral oil. I've tried nat stone powder (uchigumori) with oil and preferred my usual water method, I think as it was easier to see and keep track of progress.
> 
> Problem with using oil with your stone slurry, if you don't have powder, then how will avoid oiling up your stones? Usually you'll generate some slurry with some means, and you won't use oil for that, and then you'll apply the slurry to the knife. To me the oil method only works if you have powder, natural or otherwise.



I mop up normal, water-based slurry from the stone with a cotton ball then place a drop or two of camelia oil on the blade along with a spritz of water before polishing. Didn't have enough time last night to comment conclusively on results. I definitely do not oil my stones.


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## Badgertooth

Tried using the slurry from each stone in a sharpening progression as I finished with the stone to polish the rest of the blade and after each grit blending with a scrubby paying particular attention to the transition between the sharpened area and blade face. Repeat through each stone and end with micro mesh. This was to re-finish after some thinning.


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## Badgertooth

King 800
Uchigumori fingerstones
Nakayama on the edge
Buffed up the migaki finish too





















Giving her a little love before BST


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## Badgertooth

Thinning a Shig. Thought I'd take a photo of each side as a comparison. 1
Fresh off the stones and one refinished after the stones. Enjoy.


Unfinished side:




Finished side.


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## DDPslice

do you like the look of 800 before going to the polish? Are you able to distinguish the kasumi from the marks? Btw did you ever get those pads?


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## Badgertooth

DDPslice said:


> do you like the look of 800 before going to the polish? Are you able to distinguish the kasumi from the marks? Btw did you ever get those pads?



Very much so.. Often tempted to leave it at 800 because it looks so nice


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## Badgertooth

Got the pads but I think you can get a better result with good quality wet & dry


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## mikedtran

Badgertooth said:


> Got the pads but I think you can get a better result with good quality wet & dry



I also much prefer sandpaper to the pads.


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## DanHumphrey

Badgertooth said:


> Thinning a Shig. Thought I'd take a photo of each side as a comparison. 1
> Fresh off the stones and one refinished after the stones. Enjoy.



You just have all sorts of good work out there! What's the handle on this Shig? It looks good.


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## Asteger

mikedtran said:


> I also much prefer sandpaper to the pads.



Me 2


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## XooMG

Which pads in particular? I never got on well with micromesh, but rather liked 3m microfine following an 800 grit.


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## Badgertooth

Yeah, micromesh. Not sure if it's a technique thing and I'm doing it wrong but I get a better result from sandpaper.


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## Matus

Micromesh starts @ 1200 grit, so it does not quite replace wet sand paper - could that be part of the issue?


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## zitangy

BadgerTooth>
"As an aside, I saw on the JNS that WA powder is best used with camellia oil and I tried it... Vastly different and more refined finish than using it with water. Which poses an interesting question: what would happen if you used stone slurry with camellia oil?"

Z.. I believe that White Alumina is the abrasive used in the making of some of the Japanese Whet Stones.

Asterger> " Problem with using oil with your stone slurry, if you don't have powder, then how will avoid oiling up your stones? Usually you'll generate some slurry with some means, and you won't use oil for that, and then you'll apply the slurry to the knife. To me the oil method only works if you have powder, natural or otherwise.

Z.... Most of the time, when flattening the stone, I collect the slurry in a small container and after a while... it dries and cakes up. I also have a small container when I collect all the slurry when washing knives and stones. Wasteful to throw it away and besides, it may choke up the sink/ drainage pipes eventually. THe second container is not "pure slurry" as it has metal filings form the kniives. Useful for general cleaning 

Will be looking for a mortar to pound and make some polishing powder from old stones or that is too thin.

BTW bought some wa powder and i find that putting some on my cleaning cloth ( before storing the knife) which has been laced with camilia oil does remove slight oxidation . i Keep the cloth for future use. Only caveat is to wash the knife thoroughly before each use.

Have fun...

D


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## slobound

Sorry to bring up an old thread but it’s been really helpful for tips on producing an even kasumi. Thank you posters!

Another question for you guys, any tips for a kasumi on the bevel on a knife with a straight line KU finish? I’d love to keep the line straight if possible.


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## Luftmensch

Use a thick tape to protect the KU and preserve the line you want to keep. Proceed as normal with your preferred polishing method.


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## Matus

Luftmensch said:


> Use a thick tape to protect the KU and preserve the line you want to keep. Proceed as normal with your preferred polishing method.



Just a little warning - depending on the kurouchi finish and the type of the tape, quite some of the kurouchi may come off when the tape will be removed.


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## Luftmensch

^^
This is true and also try to keep the KU side of the tape dry. If water gets under the tape and you don't dry it, you can get a faint rusty outline (don't ask me how I know).


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## slobound

Matus said:


> Just a little warning - depending on the kurouchi finish and the type of the tape, quite some of the kurouchi may come off when the tape will be removed.


Yeah, that's what I was worried about with adding the tape. I've done that on another knife before and it pulled off the KU.

Maybe I will just have to go without a straight line anymore.


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## Luftmensch

Perhaps find the least sticky tape you can find and use it on a small portion of the knife. See what happens? KU is not indestructible but I have found that it is pretty resilient when done well - after all it should be designed to withstand years of cutting, cleaning and contact with acidic foods. For what it is worth, I have no trouble with Nitto PVC electrical insulation tape.

If you are sure your KU is the fragile kind... and you are desperate to maintain a sharp line between the KU and blade polish, you could consider protecting the KU with a thin resilient sheet. Cut the profile of the KU out of plastic (or heck... cardboard) and use bulldog clips at the spine to hold it onto the KU surface. Never tried this so I don't know how well it would work... but I imagine it ok for a small amount of finger polishing? Maybe oil up the KU face with a food safe oil to prevent rusting?


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## RDalman

"after all it should be designed to withstand years of cutting" 

I think KU is rather a "non-finish" - hardening scale, or chemichally done to mimic that.


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## Matus

As Robin said. The KU is not a real 'finish'. On top of that many JP knives have 'kurouchi' done with gun blue or similar agents. Kurouchi is never going to 'last' forever. Even the nice gritty ones like the Kochi line has will not withstand hard rubbing when washing. I have seen the knife in person after a few months in a pro kitchen. Looks more like nashiji today. Nothing wrong with that.

In general I would recommend not to try to loose sleep over kurouchi falling off. It's simply part of the life cycle of given knife. Different kurouchi finishes do indeed behave differently - some will fall off in larger chunks that does not look so great, others will gradually wear off. In a home use with gentle care some will last a long time.


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## Luftmensch

I both agree and disagree 

It is easy to pass it off as the absence of polishing... while this is true in a strict sense, it over looks the deliberate actions taken to create the oxide layer in the first place. It is a deliberate aesthetic choice.

I think it is a misnomer that it is simply a byproduct of forging that was not removed. Achieving a deep and stable KU finish is not an accident. J-blacksmiths deliberately go out of their way to make a deep, uniform and robust KU finish. I believe there are many ways it can be done and blacksmiths keep their process as a trade secret. If you get to handle a kuro blade from a top blacksmith (or a plane or a chisel for that matter), you'll appreciate that it is a controlled process.

All that said... "What's in a name"... I am sure there are all sorts of black, semi-stable oxides that are passed off as kurouchi. But for instance, I would not really consider black rust (e.g. gun bluing processes) as a proper KU finish.


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## Luftmensch

(But yes, in any case... be it the best example or the worst... it is a 'fragile' feature that can be worn away)


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## RDalman

Well sure. I spoke to a popular japanese smith a couple of weeks ago and he confirmed that yes most do chemichal KU, but the "best" one was to be had with leadbath heating pre quench. I can do a pretty good one with using coal dust when heat treating with my electric kiln too, but I wouldnt really call it going great length or charging any premium for it.


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## Luftmensch

Speaking of the devil... this blacksmith uses graphite in a lead bath (turn on captions). 

I agree - as I understand it, creating a KU finish is done before the quench. If the smith did not want a KU finish, this step would be _skipped_. This is where the methods vary. I am sure many smiths probably use lower tech materials and processes (than in the video) more inline with traditional processes.


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## RDalman

Yea, like he says, he uses graphite primarily to avoid the lead sticking to the knives 

There's no skipping the heat treatment steps, but it can be done in different ways. The blade needs to be heated in some way, cooled in some way, and tempered in some way. Sometimes forging surfaces and some scale is left on too.


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## slobound

Matus said:


> As Robin said. The KU is not a real 'finish'. On top of that many JP knives have 'kurouchi' done with gun blue or similar agents. Kurouchi is never going to 'last' forever. Even the nice gritty ones like the Kochi line has will not withstand hard rubbing when washing. I have seen the knife in person after a few months in a pro kitchen. Looks more like nashiji today. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> In general I would recommend not to try to loose sleep over kurouchi falling off. It's simply part of the life cycle of given knife. Different kurouchi finishes do indeed behave differently - some will fall off in larger chunks that does not look so great, others will gradually wear off. In a home use with gentle care some will last a long time.



Thank you for all the tips, guys! I think I just need to "get over it". Like you said, it's meant to be used... not a museum piece.


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## Luftmensch

RDalman said:


> There's no skipping the heat treatment steps, but it can be done in different ways. The blade needs to be heated in some way, cooled in some way, and tempered in some way. Sometimes forging surfaces and some scale is left on too.



True that! Sorry. I was not clear in my previous post. You would not skip any of those essential steps (forging -> quenching -> annealing/tempering). And true! I am sure many Kuro finishes are just a by product of these processes (particularly textured ones with forging scale). But I am sure it is not unanimously so....

For some japanese woodworking tools and kitchen knives the KU is so fine i think the process is more like: forging -> "something" -> quenching -> annealing/tempering. That "something" is non-essential and can be skipped depending on the intended finish. For instance it might be a method to oxidise/decarburise the surface metal? I dunno?

I haven't encountered good sources documenting how a fine KU finish is made. If anyone out there has a link, I'd love to have a read!


I don't mean to come off as stubborn and dogmatic  but some finishes are just too darn fine to be anything but a conscious effort. Check out these Iwasaki and Shigefusa kiridashis. You can see grind marks from shaping the kiridashi _underneath_ the KU. The KU is suuuuch a nice and even (almost power-coat) finish. It must have been created in controlled conditions between forging/shaping the tool and heat treatment?


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## Luftmensch

slobound said:


> Thank you for all the tips, guys! I think I just need to "get over it". Like you said, it's meant to be used... not a museum piece.



Bawww... don't give up so easily. I think many of the people who actively participate in polishing threads do it for the journey and not the destination. A highly polished knife (be it mirror or kasumi) places a large maintenance burden on the user... so it is more of an ornamental finish than a practical one. Part of the fun (and frustration) is overcoming obstacles like yours...

I don't think you have actually said anything about the knife or the KU? My apologies if I missed it. Who is the blacksmith... or what is the brand? I don't have a particularly big dictionary of knife experiences but I am sure if your knife is a recognised smith/brand, someone out there in the KKF-verse will be able to relate their experience with you.

But also... why don't you try to determine how stable the KU is? Find an out the way corner and test how stable/rugged it is? There is no shame in using a barrier to protect the KU and guide the finish... with the plastic or cardboard suggestion, I was encouraging you to try a poor-mans version of this.


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## slobound

Luftmensch said:


> Bawww... don't give up so easily. I think many of the people who actively participate in polishing threads do it for the journey and not the destination. A highly polished knife (be it mirror or kasumi) places a large maintenance burden on the user... so it is more of an ornamental finish than a practical one. Part of the fun (and frustration) is overcoming obstacles like yours...
> 
> I don't think you have actually said anything about the knife or the KU? My apologies if I missed it. Who is the blacksmith... or what is the brand? I don't have a particularly big dictionary of knife experiences but I am sure if your knife is a recognised smith/brand, someone out there in the KKF-verse will be able to relate their experience with you.
> 
> But also... why don't you try to determine how stable the KU is? Find an out the way corner and test how stable/rugged it is? There is no shame in using a barrier to protect the KU and guide the finish... with the plastic or cardboard suggestion, I was encouraging you to try a poor-mans version of this.



Thanks for the push to maintain the sharp edge. I'm really loving the video of how they use that tool to "block" the KU edge. The knife that I'm trying to keep the KU edge on is a Kono Fuji AS KU sujihiki. But I guess this would also apply to my Tsubaya Tanaka KU as well.


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## Luftmensch

Like I said, I haven't handled as many knives as some around these parts - I'll leave it to the community to see any information specific to those knives comes up... But my hunch (nothing more, caveat emptor) is that the KU on those knives is not going to disappear if you look at it wrong. Those are both well regarded brands....

.... Also... worlds collide... Isn't the knife being made in the video I sent a Tsubaya Tanaka KU??


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