# Venev stones



## M1k3 (Jun 21, 2021)

I just received one. Thought I'd start a thread on them for everyone to post their thoughts on them.

Venev 400/800





400 side




800 side


Comparison picture of the stone with a Shapton Glass on top.







I sharpened my HSC 52100 and a Mercer Millenia on it. Initial thoughts is it's a nice all around stone. Will have to spend more time with it though to say much more.


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## branwell (Jun 21, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Will have to spend more time with it though to say much more.


Well, you have had 3 hours. Tap Tap Tap


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## SolidSnake03 (Jun 21, 2021)

Have the 240/400 and the 800/1200, really nice stones. Cut everything and work super fast. Great stones all around


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## applepieforbreakfast (Jun 21, 2021)

Are these suitable for thinning knives, or solely for sharpening?


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## M1k3 (Jun 21, 2021)

Yes. Better suited for high carbide steels. Finish won't win any beauty contests but isn't atrocious.


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## Rangen (Jun 21, 2021)

I would not describe them as fast. Even the 100. But I agree with @M1k3, if you have to thin some S110v or something like that, it's hard to imagine a better choice for the price this side of vitrified diamond.

Vitrified diamond stones are the only way out of the diamonds + pressure -> super-deep scratches conundrum I've found. But diamonds + light pressure + like a zillion laps is a decent substitute.

Update: OK, yes, diamond plates are a very good alternative. But I don't think they will last as long as the Venevs under such use.


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## zizirex (Jun 21, 2021)

Kinda wonder how this stone works with a Single/wide bevel knife? since more Harden steel surface area means need more cutting power. Especially on very hard White 1/ Blue steel.


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## Bolek (Jun 22, 2021)

Rangen said:


> I would not describe them as fast. Even the 100. But I agree with @M1k3, if you have to thin some S110v or something like that, it's hard to imagine a better choice for the price this side of vitrified diamond.
> 
> *Vitrified diamond stones *are the only way out of the diamonds + pressure -> super-deep scratches conundrum I've found. But diamonds + light pressure + like a zillion laps is a decent substitute.
> 
> Update: OK, yes, diamond plates are a very good alternative. But I don't think they will last as long as the Venevs under such use.


are you shure that it is a *Vitrified *diamond stone ? I thought it is* a resine based diamond stone.*


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## M1k3 (Jun 22, 2021)

Venev are resin based.

There's also vitrified ones, which are a step up in performance and price.


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## Rangen (Jun 22, 2021)

Bolek said:


> are you shure that it is a *Vitrified *diamond stone ? I thought it is* a resine based diamond stone.*



It is indeed a resin-based stone. I did not intend to imply otherwise. I was saying that they were a really good choice for high-carbide steels, quite possibly the best choice per dollar, unless you were going to spring for vitrified diamond. Buried in all of that was a subtle implication that, while the Naniwa stones are arguably better, it's hard to make the case for them purely on value for the dollar.

I've been trying to pack fewer concepts into each sentence, to avoid confusing readers, but it is a work in progress.


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## Deadboxhero (Jun 22, 2021)

The OCB resin is softer than the Naniwa Diamond resin, may have better feel but more prone to wear and gouging if the angle isn't dead on.

Finish is better on the Naniwa resin diamond 
cleaner, brighter and more consistent but it also costs more. 


All resin diamond/CBN stones load up. They need to be cleaned to cut effectively if loaded significantly (which comes from use)

They also need to be dressed to expose more diamond in the resin. So it's not about just cleaning them, they need the bonding cut up with AlOx or SiC to work best. (Not too coarse or too fine, 200-400 grit range)


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## M1k3 (Jun 23, 2021)

Used the knives I sharpened on the stones tonight. Great edge off the 800 one, even on the cheap Mercer.


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## M1k3 (Jun 30, 2021)

Some thoughts on these after using them some more.

Pros:
Splash and go. Well, 2-3 splashes or so and go.
Not muddy.
Stays flat.
Speed is consistent.
Edges are really nice straight off the stone.
2 grits at about $100 ($50 per side, which isn't bad).

Cons:
Slower than regular water stones, I'd say roughly the same cutting speed as j-nats (but they don't slow down with high carbide steels)? 
They load up. Not extreme, but, they do. Nothing a nagura or higher grit stone can't fix easily.

So far, I'm liking the stone a lot. So much so, my other ones are getting neglected.


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## kayman67 (Jul 1, 2021)

I'm really glad you got these and you like them.


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## KO88 (Jul 2, 2021)

Has anyone tried the 80/150 version for thinning?


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## M1k3 (Jul 2, 2021)

I haven't, yet. When I ordered and last I checked, they were out of stock.


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## Benuser (Jul 2, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Some thoughts on these after using them some more.
> 
> Pros:
> Splash and go. Well, 2-3 splashes or so and go.
> ...


How about tactile feedback?


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## M1k3 (Jul 2, 2021)

Benuser said:


> How about tactile feedback?


Like when you flip the knife and hear the burr coming off? I'm actually a bad judge of that. I never bothered to pay attention to tactile feedback much. But they're decent in that aspect.


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## M1k3 (Jul 2, 2021)

Used them again paying more attention to feedback. It'll let you know when you have the correct angle. It has a little suction effect.


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## Benuser (Jul 2, 2021)

Thanks a lot, @M1k3 ! 
That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Am used to Chosera / Naniwa Pros, where you feel if the apex has been reached, if the burr has flipped or is getting abraded. The kind of feedback I miss with coarse Shaptons, but is present to some degree with the SG2k.


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## Bear (Dec 31, 2021)

I've been thinking about these for awhile now (something new), if I were to get two what would be the recommended combos and are they worth it for carbon knives, or just stick with my regular synths.


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## kayman67 (Dec 31, 2021)

I'm not quite sure you would gain performance with carbon over normal whetstones.


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## Dominick Maone (Dec 31, 2021)

I just bought the Phoenix 240/400 and 800/1200. They were 190 shipped. Had the 100/240 in my cart too but removed. The 240 is like 300 JIS. That’s pretty rough. Figured I could cut new secondary bevels with that one. I planned to get the BBB 400, but they aren’t around for long and twice as much as the two stones with four grits that I bought. I am convinced that the BBB stuff is 10x better, but my girl already hates how much I spend on making knives and buying stones.

I have a piece of S90V to make a knife out of, so need something to sharpen it. Plus, my coworker has 40 or so pocket knives and 10-15 are high vanadium steels. So can sharpen for him.

Check out ‘engineers perspective’ on YouTube. He has some excellent videos on the Venev stones and how they compare to plates and BBB.

Not sure they are worth it for carbons. The Phoenix stones are about 1mm of abrasive. But at $50 per grit, basically the same price as a nice 25mm stone. So it would have to wear at less than 1/25 the rate of Shapton pro stones to be worth it for carbons. And they may wear less than that.


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## M1k3 (Dec 31, 2021)

They create great edges on carbon steels in my opinion. Worth it for carbon? In my experience, no but I don't regret it. Now on stainless, especially cheap stainless and high carbide steels, definitely worth every penny.


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## Bear (Dec 31, 2021)

I'm really not all that happy with my Chosera's on spicy white and I have another on the way. If I do pick them up the 800-1200 will definitely be one, thinking 240-400 as mentioned above?


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## kayman67 (Dec 31, 2021)

Keep in mind that actual grits are very different. 
It's more like this for JIS
240 ~ 325
400 OCB ~ 1100
800 OCB ~ 3000
1200 OCB ~ 5000


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## captaincaed (Dec 31, 2021)

For good simple steels without high volumes of super hard carbide, no need. Prefer the edges I get off some other Japanese synthetic stones. I think M1ke has the right angle, 100%. Hard carbide and cheap stainless. FWIW magnacut seems better with a diamond edge, as does r2. But both are so Damn wear resistant I haven't had as much practice as I'd like. 

The BBB 400 is a metal removing machine. Leaves a clean edge too. Good for butchery. But oh my god expensive. Buying used was a godsend.

I think there’s a tendency to view Japanese synthetic stones as a bit "vanilla". Even I'm guilty of this. But they’re really quite optimized specific tools that do the job very well. I think because they have become the new baseline we try other things against, they seem a little boring. But really they’re quite fantastic. they have the right types of grit, binder, they’re easy to flatten and maintain, and they come in any grit you could possibly want. There are obviously better and worse ones (looking at you King 6000), but I think as a rule they’re all quite, quite usable.



Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels Crucible MagnaCut, Kobelco Steel R2, GSB Acero R2 Version 4.36


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## captaincaed (Dec 31, 2021)

Oh **** I missspellled milk3


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## Barmoley (Dec 31, 2021)

I have to agree on BBB stones. I got the 1k to check it out and the quality is definitely there, no question. I used it on one of my VG10 knives and just left it with that 1k edge. The edge is very clean. So far this edge has lasted the longest on this knife. I've had this knife forever and used all sorts of stones on it, including other 1k and so far BBB stone has been the best for this particular knife. I definitely want to try BBB 3k now, but like with popular knives I am usually not quick enough.


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## Dominick Maone (Dec 31, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> I have to agree on BBB stones. I got the 1k to check it out and the quality is definitely there, no question. I used it on one of my VG10 knives and just left it with that 1k edge. The edge is very clean. So far this edge has lasted the longest on this knife. I've had this knife forever and used all sorts of stones on it, including other 1k and so far BBB stone has been the best for this particular knife. I definitely want to try BBB 3k now, but like with popular knives I am usually not quick enough.



Do you think the 1k is fast enough to cut new bevels quickly? I use a Shapton 120. And if the edge is around 10-15 thousandths, it takes about five minutes to create the burr on both sides at around 15 degrees per side.

I wanted to buy the 400 and 3k, but think the 5k is better overall for my needs. So 1k and 5k would be ideal. But not if it takes long to cut new bevels, as that is what I seem to use my stones for mostly.


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## captaincaed (Dec 31, 2021)

One thing I've learned is diamond =\= faster. The binding agent matters a lot. I have three types: vulcanized rubber, residoid, super vitrified. They increase in speed in that order, somewhat independent of grit size. 

Diamond = possible to cut hard carbide (vanadium, tungsten, niobium). 

Silicon carbide is harder than iron and chromium carbide, and can cut them. I think AlOx is also harder. But the stone binder makes a big difference. 

Think about it. We all get into fun debates about which synths we like and why. There are TWO compounds used as abrasive in standard sharpening stones (SiC and AlOx). The rest of the difference is the binder. Same with diamond stones.

Also you can cut new bevels with any old coarse water stone, then finish on finer diamonds. Coarse stone creates a new geometry, diamonds cut carbides after. No problemo.


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## captaincaed (Dec 31, 2021)

One elephant in the room. Norton stones. Some of the fastest material hoggers I know. They are SiC (just like a waterstone) but with a vitrified bond, rather than a porous binder designed to slough off new abrasive. They're much harder to flatten, but cut quicker when the surface is fresh. Since the abrasive "stays put" instead of creating a slurry, I think they tend to leave toothier edges, especially at low grit. Especially on cheap stainless. They're like cheese graters for steel. 

Once you choose an abrasive, it's all about the bond to determine the character of the stone.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 31, 2021)

Abrasives are a scientific discipline/specialization in and of themselves and pretty complex and not something I'm versed in at all!

One of the things that contributes to performance is the crystal structure. Diamonds still need a sharp edge to cut no matter how hard they actually are. I mean, the side of band saw blade is harder than wood but it ain't gonna cut it. So if the diamond abrasive just smooths out quickly then it will suck.

We're in @Deadboxhero's world here.


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## captaincaed (Dec 31, 2021)

Very true, point well made. 

Coticule have hard garnets, harder than steel. They leave a polished rather than toothy edge. In general of course.

I've heard of diamond grading but know precious little about it. 

I do know that cubitron sandpaper designs the abrasive particles (ceramic?) to fracture into a new toothy particle, and the effect on paper life and speed of wood removal is substantially better than basic papers. 

But as you'll see here, top two contenders have the SAME abrasive (same company even), but the "format" difference changes the game.


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## Barmoley (Dec 31, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> Do you think the 1k is fast enough to cut new bevels quickly? I use a Shapton 120. And if the edge is around 10-15 thousandths, it takes about five minutes to create the burr on both sides at around 15 degrees per side.
> 
> I wanted to buy the 400 and 3k, but think the 5k is better overall for my needs. So 1k and 5k would be ideal. But not if it takes long to cut new bevels, as that is what I seem to use my stones for mostly.


That I don't know. 1K is fast, but I don't think you can compare it it to 120. 400 is supposed to be very fast so that might work. I've been moving away from higher grit stones as I seem to get best results finishing in the 3-4k range for my use. 5K BBB diamond is also interesting since most 6K diamonds I've tried leave a slightly bittier edge than 6k synthetics. So not sure myself if I want 3k or 5k, I will probably go with 3K and strop if I want more refinement, but I suspect 3K will be enough for me.

Basically what @captaincaed said. Diamonds are not necessarily fast, BBB stones are though. One of the reasons they don't seem to load much at least at the lower grits. For major work I would still probably go with low grit synthetic even though 400 BBB is supposed to be very fast.


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## M1k3 (Jan 1, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> One thing I've learned is diamond =\= faster. The binding agent matters a lot. I have three types: vulcanized rubber, residoid, super vitrified. They increase in speed in that order, somewhat independent of grit size.
> 
> Diamond = possible to cut hard carbide (vanadium, tungsten, niobium).
> 
> ...


Diamond > SiC > AlOx hardness wise. Giggity.

AlOx > SiC > Diamond for cutting speed.

Generally speaking and ignoring binder type.


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## Leo Barr (Jan 1, 2022)

Deadboxhero said:


> The OCB resin is softer than the Naniwa Diamond resin, may have better feel but more prone to wear and gouging if the angle isn't dead on.
> 
> Finish is better on the Naniwa resin diamond
> cleaner, brighter and more consistent but it also costs more.
> ...


Considering Naniwa diamond resin stones for initial sharpening on single bevel knives & chisels - you mention cleaning them please enlighten me how is this done?


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## esoo (Jan 1, 2022)

Leo Barr said:


> Considering Naniwa diamond resin stones for initial sharpening on single bevel knives & chisels - you mention cleaning them please enlighten me how is this done?



The Naniwa stones come with a nagura for cleaning them.


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## Leo Barr (Jan 1, 2022)

esoo said:


> The Naniwa stones come with a nagura for cleaning them.


I have one of the old Naniwa nagura reddy brown stones do the diamond stones come with a different nagura?


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## esoo (Jan 1, 2022)

Leo Barr said:


> I have one of the old Naniwa nagura reddy brown stones do the diamond stones come with a different nagura?



My 3K came with a green nagura stone. Not sure what the others come with.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 11, 2022)

It's been a while...

Yeah I love my venev stones. I have the 240/400 1200/2000 ocb stones. 

The only complaint I have is with the finish the 2000 provides. You are. Better off getting the 800/1200 if you want a good mirror finish on a bevel. What I can say about the 2000 ocb stone is the edge it leaves is great. 

These stones are indispensable for sharpening high carbide, high hardness steels. I have k390, and maxamet, and these stones get both razor sharp no problem. Taking about the same amount of time that a normal steel would take on japanese water stones. 

I feel they work especially well when supplemented with diamond plates for coarse work, and diamond or cbn compound on a strop for the finishing touches on high vanadium carbide steels.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 11, 2022)

Also I wanted to add the tungsten in an air hardened steel shouldn't be an issue with sharpening. The only time it will turn into wc rather than w6c is in a water or fast oil hardening steel. At least from my understanding. 

The w6c carbides should be around the hardness of chromium carbide if memory serves me.


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## Dakota Day Trader (Jan 11, 2022)

I have the Dragon series version of these in 100/240, 400/800, and 1200/2000, but I'll chime in here as well.

As mentioned, these are not cheap stones (and the Dragon's are even _more_ expensive), but they really are a one and done for me as they tackle everything from cheap stainless to Maxamet, and do so quickly and easily. 

I'm not sure where I read to do this, but I have been using Ammonia Free Windex instead of water on these as they seem to stay wet longer, if that makes sense. I've tried water as well, but prefer the glass cleaner.

As far as actual use goes, I have only used the 240 side for some reprofiling and minor repair, but I'm sure the 100 would be nice for a bigger chip or a broken tip. 

The 400/800 I've played around with a bit for more of a utility edge, and that works great. It's also a nice progression to have for bringing out a mirrored edge on some folders. 

I really like the 1200/2K stone for "normal" sharpening. By that I mean where the edge is dull, but not beat to heck and/or in need of anything more coarse to reprofile/thin/fix. I keep my knives in pretty good shape, so this is also a touch-up stone for me. I do my main work on the 1200 and then just basically do a few super light passes and then some stropping strokes on the 2K. I don't feel the need to strop afterwards as the edge is really nice, and it only takes a few passes. Normal weekly touch ups are done via stropping on the 2K as well. 

I should mention that I have not tried lapping the 2K with sic powder as Gritomatic recommends on their site since I wanted to see what it was like right out of the box. The edges I've gotten are impressive, but I may try a bit of lapping just to see if I notice any difference. 

Finally, I'm glad I got the 1200/2K stone as it looks like the 2K is not offered anymore, or at least it's not on Gritomatic's site right now. That's too bad, as it's a great finisher and touch-up stone!

Overall I am very happy with these and feel like they are worth the money. However If they decide to offer a 240/1200 combo version I would buy that in a heartbeat, as that would be all I would need for any of my kitchen knives and most of my folders!


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## jwthaparc (Jan 11, 2022)

Dakota Day Trader said:


> I have the Dragon series version of these in 100/240, 400/800, and 1200/2000, but I'll chime in here as well.
> 
> As mentioned, these are not cheap stones (and the Dragon's are even _more_ expensive), but they really are a one and done for me as they tackle everything from cheap stainless to Maxamet, and do so quickly and easily.
> 
> ...


The reason they don't offer the 2k stone, is likely because of the problem mine (and a lot of others) has had.

Apparently the 1 micron diamond tend to form clumps, that tend to act like coarser grit than it actually is. Which leads to deeper scratches on the bevel than there should be for a 1 micron stone.

It does leave a great edge. the finnish is subpar though, which is what most people were complaining about.


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## Dakota Day Trader (Jan 11, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> The reason they don't offer the 2k stone, is likely because of the problem mine (and a lot of others) has had.
> 
> Apparently the 1 micron diamond tend to for clumps, that tend to act like coarser grit than it actually is. Which leads to deeper scratches on the bevel than there should be for a 1 micron stone.
> 
> It does leave a great edge. the finnish is subpar though, which is what most people were complaining about.



Ah, gotcha. 

Did you try lapping the 2K with some sic powder? If so, did that make any difference in either performance, or scratching?


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## jwthaparc (Jan 11, 2022)

Dakota Day Trader said:


> Ah, gotcha.
> 
> Did you try lapping the 2K with some sic powder? If so, did that make any difference in either performance, or scratching?


Unfortunately, nothing I've been able to do has changed it. I emailed Constantine, I just do what he recommends. Which is finish on the 1200, and move to a strop if I want a mirror bevel for my (or whoever's) knife I'm working on. Or finish on the 2000 if I want a very fine edge, but don't care about the finish.


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## Dakota Day Trader (Jan 11, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Unfortunately, nothing I've been able to do has changed it. I emailed Constantine, I just do what he recommends. Which is finish on the 1200, and move to a strop if I want a mirror bevel for my (or whoever's) knife I'm working on. Or finish on the 2000 if I want a very fine edge, but don't care about the finish.



Thanks for the info!

I really like the edge (and don't care about the finish) off the 2K, so I'll continue to use it for a touch-up and finisher on the kitchen knives and folders that I just want max sharpness out of. 

Last question - Did you notice *ANY* difference in _performance_ after you lapped it with the sic powder? I'm not talking about the scratches, or how the edge looked. I'm talking about the actual sharpness you were getting off the stone before vs. after the lapping?


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## M1k3 (Jan 11, 2022)

I noticed a difference after lapping the surface. With the caveat it was loaded with swarf. I didn't use SiC powder though. I use my Shapton Glass 4k. I also lapped it when new, the water was puddling instead of spreading. Thought there might of been something on the surface.


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## Dakota Day Trader (Jan 11, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I noticed a difference after lapping the surface. With the caveat it was loaded with swarf. I didn't use SiC powder though. I use my Shapton Glass 4k. I also lapped it when new, the water was puddling instead of spreading. Thought there might of been something on the surface.



I don’t have too much of a swarf problem. I use a cheap Nagura for cleaning, which makes the stones look brand new again afterwards.


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## M1k3 (Jan 11, 2022)

Dakota Day Trader said:


> I don’t have too much of a swarf problem. I use a cheap Nagura for cleaning, which makes the stones look brand new again afterwards.


I use the glass stone as a nagura.


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## Rangen (Jan 11, 2022)

I agree, the Venevs will throw off little clusters from time to time. Not enough to be a problem when making kitchen knife edges, but I've ruled them out for razors. I can see where it could be a problem for polishing too.


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## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

Dakota Day Trader said:


> Thanks for the info!
> 
> I really like the edge (and don't care about the finish) off the 2K, so I'll continue to use it for a touch-up and finisher on the kitchen knives and folders that I just want max sharpness out of.
> 
> Last question - Did you notice *ANY* difference in _performance_ after you lapped it with the sic powder? I'm not talking about the scratches, or how the edge looked. I'm talking about the actual sharpness you were getting off the stone before vs. after the lapping?


I do notice they cut slightly faster after cleaning. If I've been using it for a while. I tend to use a nagura to flatten, and condition the surface every 15 or so knives. To not waste the stone.


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## kayman67 (Feb 28, 2022)

Don't over do it. But they are very resilient still (I also had the previous versions that were even harder). The Suehiro SiC nagura is ideal, but not widely available. I had mine because I used it for CBN also in the past.


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## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> Don't over do it. But they are very resilient still (I also had the previous versions that were even harder). The Suehiro SiC nagura is ideal, but not widely available. I had mine because I used it for CBN also in the past.


Yeah. Like I was saying. I only do it about every 15 or so knives, sometimes 20 or more. If reconditioned too often I feel like I'm wasting the stone. Plus the diamonds honestly don't need reconditioning that often. I could likely even go longer than I do. 

I actually use one of suehiro's naguras. It's the one that comes with the cerax 320. I think its aluminum oxide though. Alo2 seems to work just as well on them in my experience though. Trying different naguras in the stones. I even tried jnat naguras.


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## kayman67 (Feb 28, 2022)

Yes, it works. I found the SiC ideal as it shows no signs of wear and tear after a long time, thus taking away the risk of "flattening" two surfaces at once.


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## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> Yes, it works. I found the SiC ideal as it shows no signs of wear and tear after a long time, thus taking away the risk of "flattening" two surfaces at once.


Ah, I see. Yeah. The aluminum oxide one does definitely wear. Slowly. But it does show wear.


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