# What finishing stone to add for a Toothy-refined edge



## Emieloss (Jul 20, 2022)

Hey all,

I'm currently experimenting with my stones and I'm finding it hard to find an edge that is refined enough for most vegetables and fish, but has enough bite for tomato skins and fatty meats. I don't always feel like using 3 different knives when prepping a meal, depending on the products. So I'd like to hear if there's a stone I should add to my collection that would get the job done. (A hybrid edge would probably also work, but it's much more fun to buy something new )

The knives I have are mostly Aogami #2, Aogami super and SG2. 

My stones:
Shapton Glass 220
Atoma Diamond Plate 400
Naniwa Pro 400
Naniwa Pro 1000
Naniwa Pro 3000
Belgian Blue Whetstone (believed to be around 4k)
Suehiro Rika 5k
Mcusta Zanmai 8k (Which I'm pretty sure is a rebranded Kitayama 8k)
Shapton Glass 16k (Only really used for polishing)

For slurry:
Natural Iyo Nagura (believed to be between 4k and 6k)
Natural Iyo Nagura (believed to be between 6k and 10k)

Currently doubting between the following stones, but I'm open to suggestions:
Aiiwatani Koppa lvl3 
JNS Matukusuyama 6000
JNS Aoto Matukusuyama
Shapton Glass 4000

Looking forward to hearing your opinions 

-Emieloss


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## M1k3 (Jul 20, 2022)

SG 4k. Then sharpen NP 400 -> SG 4k.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jul 20, 2022)

Belgian Blue.



Paging @cotedupy


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## refcast (Jul 20, 2022)

Natural medium soft aoto is pretty spot on for this


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## ethompson (Jul 20, 2022)

Aizu would be my choice. I like harder stones for edges generally and I feel like Aizu are a great balance of tooth and refinement for all purpose kitchen use.


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## Rangen (Jul 20, 2022)

For mediocre to merely OK knives, I've taken to just using my do-everything Shapton Glass 1000, or a 1K vitrified diamond stone. Definitely diamonds if it's stainless. I used to go higher in grit, but I'm not sure it does anything useful.

For good carbon steel knives, or good stainless like SG-2 or Hattori VG-10, I have formed the impression that there's a benefit to the tooth provided by finishing on natural stones. I agree with @ethompson that an Aizu is about perfect, but for really good knives I do use some other things, like a suita, because I can. Your Belgian stone might also produce interesting results.


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## hendrix (Jul 20, 2022)

Personally I feel you have a nice selection of stones already. I would use np 400 -> np 1000 -> np 3000 -> belgium blue but create a slurry with your atoma (rather than a natural nagura) on the bb.


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## ethompson (Jul 20, 2022)

Just saw that you have a Belgian blue already. Yeah, that should be able to get you the edge you want


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## MarcelNL (Jul 20, 2022)

paging @ian


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## Nemo (Jul 20, 2022)

TBH, I'm pretty happy with the edge that I get from Chosera 3k or Belgian Blue as an all purpose kitchen edge.


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## MowgFace (Jul 20, 2022)

Maybe sounds like a burr removal issue or improper apexing rather than a stone issue. 

Though I support gear acquisition fully. 

I have the JNS Aotos and assume you’re talking about the Blue. I find this stone perfect for your purposes and it’s a fantastic stone. I have since “graduated” to an Aizu (I like it better, not that it is inherently better) as my final edge for most knives. 

Another option is to do a bigger jump as folks have suggested, to leave some lower grit scratches to give you the “bite” you are looking for. 

Maybe chat about your sharpening technique a bit? Are you a scrubber? Heel to tip in one motion? What’s your deburring technique?

Or elaborate on what “refined enough for veggies and fish” means. Are you talking about cut face finish?


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## cotedupy (Jul 20, 2022)

I'd get a yellow Coticule. 

No Japanese stone (that I know) would get near a coti edge for a combination of being very fine, while still retaining a huge amount of bite and teeth if you want it to. You can play around with the desired result quite significantly, and have it finish anywhere from very aggressive to razor levels of refinement, depending on how you work the slurry.


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## tostadas (Jul 20, 2022)

My finishing stone of choice is the jns synth red aoto for all around use. I believe maxim uses a mix of 2-4k grit which feels about accurate for the finish it leaves.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jul 20, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I'd get a yellow Coticule.
> 
> No Japanese stone (that I know) would get near a coti edge for a combination of being very fine, while still retaining a huge amount of bite and teeth if you want it to. You can play around with the desired result quite significantly, and have it finish anywhere from very aggressive to razor levels of refinement, depending on how you work the slurry.



Dude, are you serious?! I invited you into the thread to lavish positivity over my Belgian Blue recommendation not toss out a stone I don't have!

Great. Now I _need_ a new stone. Sheesh.


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## cotedupy (Jul 20, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Dude, are you serious?! I invited you into the thread to lavish positivity over my Belgian Blue recommendation not toss out a stone I don't have!
> 
> Great. Now I _need_ a new stone. Sheesh.




Haha! Don't get me wrong - I would back your recommendation to the hilt obviously. But re-read the original post and he (cleverly) has already got one. 

So now a nice bit of yellow coticule to compliment I think...


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## hendrix (Jul 20, 2022)

If any of the above great suggestions don’t work, I would look at sharpening technique but that’s tough to troubleshoot by text.
If you aching for a new stone, I would also suggest a Coticule. Most are finer than Belgium blues (and are often paired with bb) but still leave a nice edge which works for me for soft tomatoes as well as firmer stuff. Since I picked one up here on BST I don’t often use a Japanese natural. They are relatively inexpensive, at least compared to Japanese naturals. (I realize I’m going off on a tangent but I love my Coticule!)


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## cotedupy (Jul 21, 2022)

hendrix said:


> If any of the above great suggestions don’t work, I would look at sharpening technique but that’s tough to troubleshoot by text.
> If you aching for a new stone, I would also suggest a Coticule. Most are finer than Belgium blues (and are often paired with bb) but still leave a nice edge which works for me for soft tomatoes as well as firmer stuff. Since I picked one up here on BST I don’t often use a Japanese natural. They are relatively inexpensive, at least compared to Japanese naturals. (I realize I’m going off on a tangent but I love my Coticule!)




Hurrah!

Good summary I think. They're certainly different enough from each other that having both is nice; I find BBW a bit more all-round versatile in that it can do nice polishing too. Coticule more versatile in terms of sharpening alone as it can we used to finish around the level of BBW, but also finer while still having teeth, because it's faster than BBW.

And indeed... trying a cotixbbw combi I think would be likely to move a lot of people away from jnats for kitchen knife sharpening purposes. For me - good Japanese stones will always be king for really exceptional bevel polishing, but there's a lot of other natural stones out there that do edge work better (imo).


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## Emieloss (Jul 21, 2022)

Wow! So many replies. Thanks all! It's great to see such an active and helpful community. 

In terms of technique, I do passes with constant pressure instead of just pressure when moving one side. I form a burr, do the other side. I alternate hands instead of doing both sides righthanded. Form a burr again before switching again. I reduce pressure and do another 2 passes or so on both sides. Now I strop edge trailing on both sides. Throwing in some edge leading as well to deburr. I then go to a higher grit stone but don't try to form a new burr, lighter pressure less passes, same amount of stropping edge trailing and edge leading. Gradually less pressure. I finish on leather with some very light edge trailing motions.

I see quite a lot of BBW recommendations. To be honest, I've only used mine twice cause I didn't really jive with it. It just feels really really slow. The first knife I tried was touching up my Tadafusa White #2 Santoku. Only after about 20 minutes I noticed a bit of a difference but I wasn't impressed. (Maybe I needed to drop down to a lower grit first)

After that I tried a freshly sharpened Moritaka AS Petty. Progression was NP400, Mcusta 8k, BBW and that felt a lot better. 

How should I use the BBW? Light pressure, medium pressure? Just water, slurry from nagura or slurry from diamond plate? How many passes usually as a finisher? Stropping on the stone and/or on leather afterwards? 

For the NP3000 I don't really get this stone, or it just doesn't produce a refined enough edge for me. Any tips for this stone in terms of just water or slurry? 

The Coticule is a nice suggestion. I can't seem to find a wider one in stock atm though. I'll keep my eyes peeled 
I'll have to look into Soft aoto and Aizu. I don't really know all the terminology so will have to do some reading.


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## cotedupy (Jul 21, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> Wow! So many replies. Thanks all! It's great to see such an active and helpful community.
> 
> In terms of technique, I do passes with constant pressure instead of just pressure when moving one side. I form a burr, do the other side. I alternate hands instead of doing both sides righthanded. Form a burr again before switching again. I reduce pressure and do another 2 passes or so on both sides. Now I strop edge trailing on both sides. Throwing in some edge leading as well to deburr. I then go to a higher grit stone but don't try to form a new burr, lighter pressure less passes, same amount of stropping edge trailing and edge leading. Gradually less pressure. I finish on leather with some very light edge trailing motions.
> 
> ...



I like an atoma slurry on BBW. It’ll cut quite slowly without that, but quite quickly once you get the garnets slightly broken up and rolling around. Like all natural stones it’ll probably take a little experimenting to find what works best for you.

Coticules by comparison can often be blindingly quick (as well as being finer), and don't necessarily need the slurry raising beforehand. They're usually slightly softer than BBW, and have more and sharper abrasive in them.


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## Emieloss (Jul 21, 2022)

So what about using coticule slurry stones on BBW's? Anyone has experience with that?


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## stringer (Jul 21, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> So what about using coticule slurry stones on BBW's? Anyone has experience with that?


Coticules and bbws are like half sisters. They are made of basically the same abrasive material (spessartine garnets) in different concentrations. And they are found together in the same seams of rock. Traditionally they would cut the stones so that you get a natural combo of both. The coticules have more garnets. Bbws have more other stuff. For me I find it more useful to raise a coticule slurry on a coticule with another coticule. The Japanese tradition would call that a tomo nagura. Which means a slurry stone made of the same material as the base stone. Same thing with a bbw. It works best with bbw slurry. @cotedupy mentioned raising a slurry with an atoma diamond plate. Ends up having the same effect. Except you don't have to have two of all your stones. So it just depends on your wants and budget.


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## Emieloss (Jul 21, 2022)

So I just sharpened my Shigeki Tanaka Aogami #2 Nakiri based on the tips above.
NP400 NP1000 NP3000 (I liked the NP3000 a lot more with an atoma created slurry!) and finished on the BBW, also with an atoma created slurry.

After that I did some light strokes on leather loaded with 0.5 micron diamond paste.

Sheesh that edge is brutal! My sharpening technique isn't perfect and I still have room to improve, but this is impressive. I found a bellpepper in the fridge that was a bit old and had a wrinkly tough skin. I cleaned it, stacked a double layer of it with skin side up and chopped through it with ease. Never had that before!

Thanks for the tips guys!


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## deltaplex (Jul 21, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> So I just sharpened my Shigeki Tanaka Aogami #2 Nakiri based on the tips above.
> NP400 NP1000 NP3000 (I liked the NP3000 a lot more with an atoma created slurry!) and finished on the BBW, also with an atoma created slurry.
> 
> After that I did some light strokes on leather loaded with 0.5 micron diamond paste.
> ...


I've found that raising a burr on my SG500 or SG1000 and then going to the bbw will help quite a bit with the before slurrying slowness if you wanted to try something to speed it up; for you it'd likely be NP1000 to BBW.


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## Desert Rat (Jul 21, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> So I just sharpened my Shigeki Tanaka Aogami #2 Nakiri based on the tips above.
> NP400 NP1000 NP3000 (I liked the NP3000 a lot more with an atoma created slurry!) and finished on the BBW, also with an atoma created slurry.
> 
> After that I did some light strokes on leather loaded with 0.5 micron diamond paste.
> ...


I think stropping on newspaper will leave the edge with more tooth. 
It probably won't cost you anything to try it.


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## MowgFace (Jul 21, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> ...
> 
> After that I did some light strokes on leather loaded with 0.5 micron diamond paste.
> 
> .. My sharpening technique isn't perfect and I still have room to improve, but this is impressive. ...


I think I would recommend not finishing on the diamond paste. Could be covering up the sharpening issues that are coming off the stones. Could be why you are not feeling the bite you would expect with any of your stone edges.


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## Cliff (Jul 21, 2022)

I'd finish one of the R2 knives on SG500 or maybe 1K and at least one of the carbon knives on the 8K. Then I'd finish another knife with the Belgian Blue for all around use. I realize you're looking for a one-and-done solution, but this would cover all the bases.


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## hendrix (Jul 21, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> So what about using coticule slurry stones on BBW's? Anyone has experience with that?


One theory is that diamond stones such as Atomas fracture the garnets in BBW’s and coticules that result in a knife edge with more bite than if you use a BBW or coticule nagura (or “bout” in this context) as opposed to razor sharpening in which the use of bouts is more appropriate for finer edges. Again, for me, this is theoretical as it sounds plausible so I always used atomas for slurrying BBW/coticules rather than a BBW/coticule bout. Others will probably have thoughts about this hopefully.


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## Lezza (Jul 21, 2022)

For me, Suitas like Okudo and Ohira delivers the toothiest edge. For final finishing with toothy edge, Nakayama would be best. Coticules deliver toothy edges also, but they wear down much faster than JNats.


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## cotedupy (Jul 21, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> So I just sharpened my Shigeki Tanaka Aogami #2 Nakiri based on the tips above.
> NP400 NP1000 NP3000 (I liked the NP3000 a lot more with an atoma created slurry!) and finished on the BBW, also with an atoma created slurry.
> 
> After that I did some light strokes on leather loaded with 0.5 micron diamond paste.
> ...




Nice work! It would've certainly surprised me if you hadn't been able to get BBW working well after a bit of a play around. 

What DR said here is also a very good point - I find paper / cardboard the best stropping medium for retaining teeth on edges. Though it's less forgiving if you haven't deburred completely cleanly n stuff.



Desert Rat said:


> I think stropping on newspaper will leave the edge with more tooth.
> It probably won't cost you anything to try it.


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## Lezza (Jul 21, 2022)

I forgot, stropping on diamond spray or pastes makes toothy edges too.


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## cotedupy (Jul 21, 2022)

I was in a sharpening mood yesterday, so got out one of my cotis to demonstrate speed (the stone is still dished from when I got it, so I've flattened it into a 'V' shape and use half of the stone at a time). This is without raising slurry, just a spray of water, and if you look at the surface of the stone you can see just how quickly it's swarfing up pretty much instantly. I've raised and flipped burrs in this vid several times, as you can probably tell by how long it takes me to deburr - the stone just keeps forming new ones at all but the lightest of pressure.





This coticule I admit is slightly unusual; it is _seriously _fast, while being very fine, and finishing with incredible bite if you don't overwork it. Other cotis I have do this kind of thing, but not to the same extremes that this one does.

The only other stone I've used that's anywhere near it in terms of performance is a Nakayama Kiita Tomae from Alex G's hoard. Though that's not as fast, nor as fine, and leaves slightly more polished edges. But it's not a million miles away.


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## Kawa (Jul 22, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I was in a sharpening mood yesterday, so got out one of my cotis to demonstrate speed (the stone is still dished from when I got it, so I've flattened it into a 'V' shape and use half of the stone at a time). This is without raising slurry, just a spray of water, and if you look at the surface of the stone you can see just how quickly it's swarfing up pretty much instantly. I've raised and flipped burrs in this vid several times, as you can probably tell by how long it takes me to deburr - the stone just keeps forming new ones at all but the lightest of pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What are you stropping on, if I may ask?
Is it a piece of denim laying on carton/a towerl?


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## branwell (Jul 22, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> (A hybrid edge would probably also work, but it's much more fun to buy something new )


None of my finishing stones used as standalone stones can do what you are wanting, produce a super keen edge with solid bite. These stones include SG2K, SP2K, Naniwa Pro 2K, GreenBrick 2K, Chosera 3K, Suehiro Ouka 3K, King 4k, Morihei 4K, SG 4K, Rika 5K, Nubatama 5K, Geshin 5K, SP5K, King 6k, Suehiro 6K, SG6K and a number of other higher grit stones. On the natural side, I've got an Aoto, Miera, Belgian Blue and a couple others I cant remember what they are called but they too cant do it.

To me, a single stone cant get close to a hybrid for bite with extreme keenness.
Through experimenting, I've kind of landed on liking 1K to 2K for the base stone and 6K for the high stone.
Basically sharpen as normal on the base stone, create a clean burr free edge, and then strop on the high grit stone.

If you haven't much experience with hybrids, use a tomato and a couple other things to dial it in to your liking, i.e. once sharpened on the 1K, test cut and then strop twice on the high grit, than cut again, then strop twice more and cut again etc. Doing this you will find the sweet spot.

As to specific stones, you can use a verity, hybrids are pretty flexible.

As a base I tend to use a SP1K as its a pretty no nonsense S&G with a feel I like. I also use a Suehiro Cerax 1K, Nubatama Platinum 1K, King KD1K, SP1.5K, King KD1.5K, Nubatama Platinum 1.5K and the SP2K when I get board. All of them work amazing in this capacity.

For high stones, I've really just use the King G1 6K. Now before all you haters pile in, yea, its a totally numb feeling stone that is slow. I agree. Its a shi% stone. But when it comes to hybrids, its slowness is a boon and its specific keenness just works great with hybrids. As to its numbness. Well, luckily it only takes three or 4 strops to get the job done so you don't have to suffer long  Another stone I use a bit in this capacity is another horrible feeling stone, the SG16k but for the most part I just use the King.

If you want to try a totally different type of hybrid, try slurry from a mid grit stone on your finisher. I find Suehiro Cerax 1K slurry on the Morihei 4K to be super interesting. Its also good on the SG8K and no too bad on hard naturals like the Meara and Belgian Blue.


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## cotedupy (Jul 22, 2022)

Kawa said:


> What are you stropping on, if I may ask?
> Is it a piece of denim laying on carton/a towerl?



Ah... no it's actually just a bit of old newspaper, but the picture on the front page was mostly blue.

I do quite like denim / cotton / cloth for stropping - either that or paper/card would be my favourites. Though *apparently* that's not what our tea towels are for. So it's newspaper most of the time.


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## tostadas (Jul 22, 2022)

branwell said:


> None of my finishing stones used as standalone stones can do what you are wanting, produce a super keen edge with solid bite. These stones include SG2K, SP2K, Naniwa Pro 2K, GreenBrick 2K, Chosera 3K, Suehiro Ouka 3K, King 4k, Morihei 4K, SG 4K, Rika 5K, Nubatama 5K, Geshin 5K, SP5K, King 6k, Suehiro 6K, SG6K and a number of other higher grit stones. On the natural side, I've got an Aoto, Miera, Belgian Blue and a couple others I cant remember what they are called but they too cant do it.
> 
> To me, a single stone cant get close to a hybrid for bite with extreme keenness.
> Through experimenting, I've kind of landed on liking 1K to 2K for the base stone and 6K for the high stone.
> ...


All edge trailing for the high grit "strop"?


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## branwell (Jul 23, 2022)

tostadas said:


> All edge trailing for the high grit "strop"?


Yup, all edge trailing. Just as many as you need, no more. Dial it in by test cutting what ever it is you are wanting the edge for.


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## cotedupy (Jul 23, 2022)

branwell said:


> To me, a single stone cant get close to a hybrid for bite with extreme keenness.




One day I will just send you a Washita B... then you can throw all the other ones away .


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## M1k3 (Jul 23, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> One day I will just send you a Washita B... then you can throw all the other ones away .


Nice edge on Z-wear


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## Benuser (Jul 23, 2022)

stringer said:


> Coticules and bbws are like half sisters. They are made of basically the same abrasive material (spessartine garnets) in different concentrations. And they are found together in the same seams of rock. Traditionally they would cut the stones so that you get a natural combo of both. The coticules have more garnets. Bbws have more other stuff. For me I find it more useful to raise a coticule slurry on a coticule with another coticule. The Japanese tradition would call that a tomo nagura. Which means a slurry stone made of the same material as the base stone. Same thing with a bbw. It works best with bbw slurry. @cotedupy mentioned raising a slurry with an atoma diamond plate. Ends up having the same effect. Except you don't have to have two of all your stones. So it just depends on your wants and budget.


I like mixing grits a lot. No problem using a coticule for it, but be aware the coticule covers a huge range, from 800 to above 8k. Have used thick coticule saliva slurry to reprofile a SAK, so very abrasion resistant soft stainless. I was quite successful in using the coticule to raise — water-based — slurry with a Chosera 2k: it added some refinement in the end result, and some extra speed at the beginning. The initially aggressive Chosera particles broke rapidly down the coticule garnets, and vice versa.
The same garnets only get available from the BB at some 4k. I don't understand the mechanism. Must have to do with the BB's slate vs. the Coticule's clay.


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## Ruso (Jul 23, 2022)




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## Bear (Jul 23, 2022)

The season is almost here.











I can maintain almost any degree of fresh bite with these.


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## Emieloss (Jul 23, 2022)

cotedupy said:


>



Man, I thought I could get my knives pretty sharp. But seeing how effortless you cut that paper towel.. I still have a lot to learn. 
Nice job!


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## inferno (Jul 23, 2022)

for me the glass 4k will create "toothy yet refined" edge. it doesn't hesitate on tomatos and peppers, yet it feels very sharp somehow.


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## cotedupy (Jul 23, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> Man, I thought I could get my knives pretty sharp. But seeing how effortless you cut that paper towel.. I still have a lot to learn.
> Nice job!




Ah just a good stone, good knife, and practice. Plus lots of learning from the experts here .

The only really important thing is being able to tell when you've raised a burr, and got rid of it properly. That's why I spend a lot of time in that vid touching the edge (obviously there are other ways to tell too).


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## Emieloss (Jul 24, 2022)

I feel like I might often have a burr that I can't feel or or see. Which results in my edges dulling too quickly. Any way to detect burrs or get rid of them more? 
I see you do a lot of edge leading but not really any edge trailing strokes in that vid. I usually do a mix but with more edge trailing. And what about the effect of slurry's and/or pressure on those hidden burr's?


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## sansho (Jul 24, 2022)

Bear said:


> I can maintain almost any degree of fresh bite with these.


sweet garden.
where are those sprays from? all i've tried so far is 10μ diamond spray. i like it, but i've always wondered what kind of edge smaller particles would give.


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## sansho (Jul 24, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I was in a sharpening mood yesterday, so got out one of my cotis...



i've never gotten a knife that sharp. i can kinda cut paper towel, but not like that.
i'll get there eventually...


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## Bear (Jul 24, 2022)

Gritomatic "Gunny Juice", best stuff I've ever used but pricey.


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## cotedupy (Jul 24, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> I see you do a lot of edge leading but not really any edge trailing strokes in that vid. I usually do a mix but with more edge trailing. And what about the effect of slurry's and/or pressure on those hidden burr's?



The stone is so fast that it was raising a burr almost instantly during normal sharpening at the start. So quite a lot of that short vid I'm actually deburring, hence a lot of edge leading, full length strokes. Which is how I like to do it, and with very light pressure on a relatively clean stone.

On extremely fast stones, or annoying steels, I sometimes do what people call the 'Kippington Method' of deburring.




Emieloss said:


> I feel like I might often have a burr that I can't feel or or see. Which results in my edges dulling too quickly. Any way to detect burrs or get rid of them more?



TBH I think this probably happens to most of us from time to time, but with practice you'll gradually start getting a better and better feel for it. I find the way a knife cuts through paper (any kind) is a very good burr or wire edge test once you've calibrated how it should feel.

You can see there that at various points I've; felt for a burr using the tips / pads of my fingers, checked it using the 'thumbnail test', and then seen how it cuts kitchen roll at the end. These certainly aren't the only ways to evaluate the state of an edge, but they're the ones I use and know, so kinda just do instinctively when sharpening.




sansho said:


> i've never gotten a knife that sharp. i can kinda cut paper towel, but not like that.
> i'll get there eventually...



Yeah it is very literally just a matter of practice. And in practical terms - a knife that'll go nicely through normal paper is quite enough. It's cool to get something very sharp but still with a good amount of teeth, like my Mazaki there, but it's far from essential!


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## Nemo (Jul 24, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> I feel like I might often have a burr that I can't feel or or see. Which results in my edges dulling too quickly. Any way to detect burrs or get rid of them more?
> I see you do a lot of edge leading but not really any edge trailing strokes in that vid. I usually do a mix but with more edge trailing. And what about the effect of slurry's and/or pressure on those hidden burr's?


Improving burr control and deburring were (and will probably continue to be) key milestones in my "sharpening journey" (this phrase makes me cringe a bit because it reminds me of the "food journeys" that the Masterchef judges would talk about just before kicking someone off the show).

I find that pressure control is key to burr minimisation. Check out Pete Nowlan's (@Sailor) sharpening video on Knifeplanet.net. as you progress through the lower pressure levels, you will likely feel (and maybe see) bits of burr in the swarf.

After minimising the burr, I perform feather-light edge leading strokes (2 or 3 per side for simple steels, more for high alloy steels), followed by a longitudinal deburring stroke.

Subsequent stones are only for polishing with low pressure, followed by feather-light edge leading strokes and a longitudinal deburring stroke.

I then repeat the last few sharpening steps (which may be the light pressure levels on the last 2 stones or the last 2 pressure levels if only touching up on a fine stone), a technique borrowed from Dave Martell. After pressure regulation, this has made the most difference to my burr control and deburring.

As a final step, I usually pull gently through a cork or block of hard felt.

The Belgian Blue Whetstone is renowned as a stone that abrades the burr as it sharpens. In my limited experience, this does seem to have some basis, but I still do need to do some deburring and burr minimisation.

An alternative is to use the @Kippington deburring method (search "Kippington deburring video"), which results in a microbevel with a well cleaned edge. The advantage is it's quicker, especially with high alloy steels. The disadvantage is that a microbevel is a slightly less sharp edge (but it does suit high alloy steels better). For these reasons, I tend to use the KDM for high alloy steels.

The other disadvantage of KDM is that it can be pretty difficult to exactly match the micro-bevel angle for a touch-up, so a multi-stone sharpening may be required.


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## Emieloss (Jul 24, 2022)

A lot of great tips, I'm currently reading the KDM threat as well to further understand the forming -and removing of burrs. I'll play around with different techhniques to see which suits me the most. Thanks Nemo & Cotedupy!

Does high alloy steel mean stainless steels? Does that also include VG10 / SG2? Because those are the stainless steels in some of the knives I use.


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## Nemo (Jul 24, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> A lot of great tips, I'm currently reading the KDM threat as well to further understand the forming -and removing of burrs. I'll play around with different techhniques to see which suits me the most. Thanks Nemo & Cotedupy!
> 
> Does high alloy steel mean stainless steels? Does that also include VG10 / SG2? Because those are the stainless steels in some of the knives I use.


I would include most stainless steels in "high alloy". The simplest, such as Ginsan, SKD11 and AEBL are relitavely easy to deburr but many others will hang on to the burr tenaciously.

I haven't sharpened VG10 but it is renowned as a steel that requires careful and determined deburring. SG2 less so (maybe because it is a PM steel) but it still needs careful deburring compared to simple steels. I often do use the KDM on SG2/R2, SRS15 and HAP40 knives.


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## BarryMM (Jul 24, 2022)

I highly recommend Vadim Kraichuk "*Knife Deburring book". *Vadim was obsessed with deburring. A Tormek user, hated whetstones, but very knowledgeable. I'm still amazed how sharp he could get a knife on just 400 grit with proper de-burring. 





Knife Grinders


Precision Sharpening & Knife Rental - Scientific approach - An exceptional edge for the lowest possible price.




knifegrinders.com.au


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## Se1ryu (Jul 24, 2022)

inferno said:


> for me the glass 4k will create "toothy yet refined" edge. it doesn't hesitate on tomatos and peppers, yet it feels very sharp somehow.


@inferno looks like you really love your SG soo much that every time I read your comments there is always a shapton glass in it. Lol JK


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## branwell (Jul 24, 2022)

@Emieloss This website might interest you. Lots of scanning electron microscope images of edges sharpened different ways, deburred different ways etc. If you do check it out, scroll down as you go. There is a comment sections under each article with lots of interesting discussion.









Index


Quantifying Sharp Definitions of Sharp and Keen Sharp and Keen part 2 The Slice Cut A Comparison of Several Manufactured Blades The Bevel Set The Honing Progression The Diamond Plate Progression It…




scienceofsharp.com





I'll give a +1 to the technique @cotedupy demonstrated. Simple, effective, and that website has some cool images that show edge leading for deburring too


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## Benuser (Jul 24, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> I feel like I might often have a burr that I can't feel or or see. Which results in my edges dulling too quickly. Any way to detect burrs or get rid of them more?
> I see you do a lot of edge leading but not really any edge trailing strokes in that vid. I usually do a mix but with more edge trailing. And what about the effect of slurry's and/or pressure on those hidden burr's?


Be aware that while edge trailing does abrade the existing burr just as well, it tends to create a new one. It isn't just flipping the old burr. Edge trailing removes a lot of steel.


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## Emieloss (Jul 24, 2022)

I actually did read all of that about 3 years ago. Haven't been sharpening a lot these last two years so it might be worthwhile to read it through again, now that the hobby juices are flowing again


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## inferno (Jul 24, 2022)

Se1ryu said:


> @inferno looks like you really love your SG soo much that every time I read your comments there is always a shapton glass in it. Lol JK



i like many stones, pros, glass, naniwa pros, suehiros, kings etc etc. the glass are very allround and easy to use, and they are all similar, just finer or coarser. i find the 4k to be the sweetspot. well, the 3k is a favorite too but it wont make knives as sharp.


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## cotedupy (Jul 24, 2022)

Nemo said:


> I find that pressure control is key to burr minimisation.




This is an exceptionally important point I think - it's all about pressure control. 

You can't really tell in that coticule video but I've gone from starting with a decent amount, and gradually reduced it down to barely touching the stone at the end.


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## cotedupy (Jul 25, 2022)

I'd also second @Nemo's suggestion of pulling through cork at the very end. I don't actually do it very often myself, but when I have it's seems to just finally clean up and align the edge without any really noticeable degradation (ime). If it removes some degree of 'toothiness', then it's only the kind of teeth that would dissolve as soon as the knife hits a board anyway.

I did a little experiment with this a while back, pulling this knife edge through a piece of wood about 50 or so times after sharpening it (you can see the grooves I've cut there). Camphor may not be the hardest wood in the world, but it's a helluva lot harder than cork or felt, and the knife is still HHT3 ish afterwards. A few pulls through a cork is gonna be just fine.


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## tostadas (Jul 25, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I was in a sharpening mood yesterday, so got out one of my cotis to demonstrate speed (the stone is still dished from when I got it, so I've flattened it into a 'V' shape and use half of the stone at a time). This is without raising slurry, just a spray of water, and if you look at the surface of the stone you can see just how quickly it's swarfing up pretty much instantly. I've raised and flipped burrs in this vid several times, as you can probably tell by how long it takes me to deburr - the stone just keeps forming new ones at all but the lightest of pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It looks like you're applying your primary pressure during the edge leading portion of the stroke, is that correct? If so, have you used this technique with soft stones? I'm curious if the knife would want to dig straight into the stone in that case.


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## cotedupy (Jul 25, 2022)

tostadas said:


> It looks like you're applying your primary pressure during the edge leading portion of the stroke, is that correct? If so, have you used this technique with soft stones? I'm curious if the knife would want to dig straight into the stone in that case.




Umm... in my mind it's about even when I'm doing the back and forth strokes, though I don't really think about it any more, so perhaps there might be a little more pressure on the leading strokes. There certainly wouldn't be more on the trailing.

I usually use natural stones now for sharpening, and mostly very hard ones like Washitas and Turkish, so obviously no problem with digging. The softest synths I have would be Kings and Ceraxes, and for the latter especially I might pay a little more attention to how I'm applying pressure because of that.

When I was starting out sharpening I certainly dug into stones a couple of times, particularly Naniwa SS which would glaze in seconds and then I'd start upping the pressure to try to get to work. Did nothing apart from making me gorge into them a few times!


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## Benuser (Aug 10, 2022)

Emieloss said:


> I feel like I might often have a burr that I can't feel or or see. Which results in my edges dulling too quickly. Any way to detect burrs or get rid of them more?


A trick I tend to use is stropping one side on my hand palm, so pushing all debris to the other side, where it is ready to get abraded by a few very light strokes along the edge. And the same the other way around. 
After said stropping the burr on the other side becomes very obvious. Quite sure though it doesn't round the edge or raises a new burr. That being said, all my bevels are more or less convexed, if that matters.


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## Rangen (Aug 12, 2022)

I'm thinking about my own toothy edge thread in days to come. But I do see that I'm going to have to break out a coticule in order to have a more complete discussion of the possibilities. Good. I got a few coticules, thinking razors, and found that one was so excellent for razors that I did not try the others. Now's my chance.


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## Nemo (Aug 12, 2022)

Benuser said:


> A trick I tend to use is stropping one side on my hand palm, so pushing all debris to the other side


I'm hoping you do not do this edge leading


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