# Should I trade in my knife? Shun Kaji or something more like the Moritaka?



## BradH (Dec 27, 2013)

My parents really made me happy with purchasing a very expensive Shun Kaji 7" Santoku for Christmas this year. Within their ability, it is essentially the best knife they could have purchased for me.

However, I feel like while it looks amazing and seems like I could make it perform perfectly well over the years, I might be happier with something like this guy in my hands:
http://www.**************.com/moritaka8.html

I have read many forum posts about different knives and different perspectives. As a mechanical engineering student, I understand the steel differences and I am ready to invest in a sharpening stone (Still trying to decide which will be best) as well as a honing steel or ceramic not to mention the time investment for regular use. Any preferences on this would also help out. Currently looking into norton or shapton stone, and looking into idahone for a honer.

The cost difference is about $50 which could go towards the stone, but I am not sure. Would the moritaka be a much better blade? Is it just up to my personal skill level anyways? Does Shun still have lifetime sharpening going on? A little feedback in this regard would be great. I was also looking at a Tojiro, but I love the kurouchi and classic look of the moritaka and the reviews and what I have read are splendid. Any other suggestions in this price range are game!

Thank you very much, and Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays all. As you can imagine part of the equation is to make sure I dont upset my parents or make them feel like they failed me at picking out an awesome knife, they did an amazing job which I will make sure they know.

-Brad


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## BradH (Dec 27, 2013)

LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA - California


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in? all around, Gyuto most likely.

Are you right or left handed? Right

Are you interested in a Western handle or Japanese handle? Most likely Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 240 or 7"+

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? 250-300



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) Veggies, very little use on meat if at all.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? wolfgang puck box set of santokus made in china.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) push,rock,chop

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) something that can hold a nice edge, but can be given a nice edge without tons of constant work. I dont use my knives everyday though.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
I love classical style japanese knives. Kurouchi is very beautiful to me, even though I can see cutting some acidic rough foods and end up streaking it. A little bit of style does matter to me.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? I am a big guy and can handle a heavier blade, but counter-space wise I am not sure of going for over 240mm. Will be getting an endgrain cutting board after this decision.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? If I go carbon, I want something that has decent anti-reactive properties. A good push cutter is something I would go for, as I want to improve my knife skills further.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? I am willing to stone once a week, but I only use my knives maybe 3 times a week, but that can spike depending on how busy I am.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) yes, I will be using endgrain wood for veggies and a plastic board for meats.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) Not yet.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) Yes.


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## don (Dec 27, 2013)

Congrats on the gift! 

I've had Moritakas AS, Tojiros ITK Shirogami, and more than a few Shuns. Of these three brands, I prefer Shuns. 

Moritakas take a great edge, but there are many issues with these knives. It's common that these knives develop holes on the edge. In fact, I have a 240mm Moritaka Kiritsuke that has come back from a passaround, and there appears to be a hole forming on the edge. As such, I'm out $200+ for the knife, as there's no way I'm selling it to someone.

Tojiro ITK Shirojami are just poorly fit and finish. The white steel is fun to sharpen, but a 240mm isn't worth more than $30.

As for Shuns, I've only had Classics and Premiers. I don't have the chipping issues that everyone else has with their Shuns, but I'm not that aggressive with my knives. I sharpen the Shuns with DMTs and they have responded well for me. Been trying to "upgrade" my wife's Shun Classic Santoku for a while now, and just this past week she warned me not to touch her knife.

For KU finish knives, I'm a fan of the Kochi. For an inexpensive KU knife, I thought that the Yamawaku was good.


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## Timthebeaver (Dec 27, 2013)

If you want a relatively unreactive carbon, forget Moritaka - the cladding is a PITA. Be careful of reading too much into glowing reviews, there are plenty of people who have had a poor experience with Moritakas (myself included). 

As a side note, if you're cooking a few times a week at home you certainly won't need to be using a stone every week.


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## BradH (Dec 27, 2013)

I actually really like the look of the Shun Premier.
As far as I have read and understood the difference in sg versus vg isnt exactly much if anything. I am half tempted to just trade in for the premier for looks alone.

I will await other opinions before I settle on an option though, thanks for your reply Don!


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## BradH (Dec 27, 2013)

"As a side note, if you're cooking a few times a week at home you certainly won't need to be using a stone every week."
Oh I know, but I guess the remark was more that I am willing to do so. Finally getting a more serious knife will probably lead me into cooking a lot more often.

-Brad


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## Mrmnms (Dec 27, 2013)

Will your parents be cool with you swapping out the knife. If so , go for it. Shuns don't get much respect on this forum, but in the real world of non enthusiasts, people really like the fit, finish and eye appeal. You trade a little performance for aesthetics. If 
I never handled some other knives, I'd still think the were "da bomb" . I sharpen a lot of them. People who treat them with respect are very happy with them. People who don't are disappointed they are not indestructible and get little chips when you use them on plates or dump them in the sink. If you don't go for a Shun, there are several very knowledgable vendors right here on this forum who will steer you towards an excellent choice.


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## hutchla (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm a home cook and my Shun Classic 7" santoku is one of my most used knifes. It's very similar in profile and looks to your Kaji but with VG10 instead of SG-2. Also the handles are different. I really like my Shun. I treat it well and don't have chipping issues. The santoku profile is nice. The weight and balance feel good to me and my D-shaped handle is comfortable. Mine has the grantons which I don't like (but thought looked cool when I bought it years ago).

Overall my Shun has been a great performer for 8 years - much better than my old Wusthofs. Within the last year I've thinned it a good deal and now it cuts much, much better.

I also have a Kochi 240 kurouchi gyuto (which Don mentioned) and it just blows the Shun out of the water. The grind is far superior - it just cuts so much better than the Shun (even with the tweaking and thinning). The distal taper on the Kochi is great. Combined with the gyuto shape the tip is so much more useful. The weight and balance also feel great. I find the 240 mm length to come in handy a lot too.

As for sharpening and thinning I find it easier and more enjoyable to sharpen the Kochi. I like to thin each time I sharpen. This helps to maintain the original geometry of the knife and prevents problems from building up over time. The Kochi has wide secondary bevels which make thinning easy. Just thin the knife to whatever finish you want and then sharpen the edge.

For the Shun first let me share that I don't find it difficult to sharpen. I don't have issues with burrs that won't go away. But the VG10 doesn't sharpen as easily or feel as good on the stones as the carbon Kochi does. Also, thinning is a pain. Or, more specifically, finishing and polishing the knife after thinning is a pain. The actual thinning of grinding down the knife and blending the bevels is pretty easy. It's just who wants to leave all those scratches on their fancy Shun? With my Kochi I thin on my King 1000 and stop there. With my Shun I thin on the King, polish on my Gesshin 4000 (my highest grit stone), then run through a progression of wet/dry sandpaper until the blade looks nice. This takes a lot of extra time compared to the Kochi and leaves the damascus cladding looking very muted. I leave it muted as I don't want to also spend time re-etching.

If I were in your position I'd keep the Shun since it was a gift and it's a nice knife. I'd also just sharpen the edge and send it out once a year to get thinned, polished and etched until you're comfortable doing it yourself.

The next thing I'd do would be to get a stone or two and an inexpensive carbon blade and practice, practice, practice. Learn to sharpen freehand and learn to thin. CCK cleavers are cheap and fun to thin and sharpen and cut with. They're especially good for veggies.

Being able to sharpen is awesome. Your knives will always be sharp and you'll get them just how you want them to be. But you're going to make mistakes as you learn to sharpen. It doesn't make sense to get an ultra high performance knife before you can take care of it. Because soon it won't perform that well and then, when you try to fix it, you'll just mess it up even more.

Learn how to get a sharp edge. Learn how to use different grits or strops without rounding the sharp edge you've created. Learn how to get even, consistent bevels. Learn about your knife's geometry and how to maintain it over time. Learn to feel for what your doing and not to go by the numbers.

Lastly, I've found that learning to sharpen is pretty easy (Jon's YouTube videos are great) but it can seem overwhelming or intimidating at first. Learning on a nice knife can add to that intimidation. All you really need is a medium stone to sharpen with and a coarse stone to thin with. I wouldn't worry about high grit polishing stones for a while. Also, I keep a stone wrapped with newspaper and use that for stropping and touch-ups between sharpening sessions.


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## Burl Source (Dec 27, 2013)

I come at this from a slightly different perspective.
My thoughts are that your parents did a good job selecting a knife as a gift for you.
I would keep the knife and use it often knowing the thought and care that went into selecting the gift for you.
To me it seems a slap in the face to say it is not good enough for you and you want something else.
When you are ready to upgrade just buy what you want. But keep the gift as a reminder of your parent's love and generosity.


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## echerub (Dec 27, 2013)

+1 to that!


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## Benuser (Dec 27, 2013)

Just use it, and enjoy it, and once you're going to buy your own one, avoid the Moritaka, as it's reseller has happened to be incapable of adressing the numerous overgrind issues.


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## Jordanp (Dec 27, 2013)

You should just use it since its a gift and all, just when you go to buy a new knife you can get something better and you will already be more experienced at maintenance since you have practiced with the one your parents bought you.


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## Lefty (Dec 27, 2013)

You'd be downgrading. Shuns are a lot better than people like to admit.


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## XooMG (Dec 27, 2013)

Don't shun the Shun. It'll be a good gateway drug and a good way to establish your needs, and probably a good opportunity to practice sharpening and thinning. A lot of knife use is technique anyway; despite having a few really sharp knives with really thin edges, I've never been able to speed-chop a carrot or potato like I've seen in some videos. Even my best knives with excellent edges are not effortless through all food.

Your parents did pretty well. And like a few others have said, just appreciate the gift as a gift.


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## JDA_NC (Dec 28, 2013)

XooMG said:


> Don't shun the Shun. It'll be a good gateway drug and a good way to establish your needs, and probably a good opportunity to practice sharpening and thinning. A lot of knife use is technique anyway; despite having a few really sharp knives with really thin edges, I've never been able to speed-chop a carrot or potato like I've seen in some videos. Even my best knives with excellent edges are not effortless through all food.
> 
> Your parents did pretty well. And like a few others have said, just appreciate the gift as a gift.



+1 except the Kaji line is SG-2 with damascus cladding.. I don't have first hand experience with either (Shun's SG-2 knives or their cladding) but it wouldn't be the type of knife I'd recommend someone learn thinning on. Better to get something softer & less expensive IMO.

It's a nice gift though. And there's always room for more knives


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## jai (Dec 28, 2013)

I really dont like shun knives for many reasons but I have one shun that I do find quite nice to use its a honesuki elite shun in sg2 steel and it sharpens up very well and holds it for awhile. If I was you I would just keep it and use it and buy more knives based on what you like and dont like about this knife there is no perfect knife and the more you try the closer you get to one that you really enjoy using


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## BradH (Dec 30, 2013)

My parents are perfectly happy with me trading for a different knife. I know how some might feel, but really it's a moot point. I added that in just to quell the potential sadness some might think knowing I would just so readily trade in the gift. They are just happy I finally have a solid knife, no matter what I end up with. Just the way our family is I guess. Now if I was exchanging for a totally different gift, then I would feel bad.

Looks like the 240mm kochi's are currently sold out, I will have to email up and check on that. It is about the same price range but definitely is the type of knife I was looking at about a year ago. Any other suggestions on a similarly priced 240mm gyuto? Doesn't have to have a kurouchi finish, I just kinda like that rustic look. The masamotos are nice but a bit beyond my price range if I hope to pick up some sharpening equipment that I can keep for specifically kitchen knives.

My good friend that I have worked with in my hobby/side business for years has a father that is one of the last living survivors of Hiroshima atomic bomb who came to america and fought for us in the korean war. His wife which acts like my mom when I am over at his parents house is exceedingly nice, and her knife has been passed down for generations. It still sports the Chrysanthemum Seal from sometime after the Meiji era. So I sort of have a long term mentality with a professional grade knife. I have an affinity for Japanese wood and metal working, not to mention CNC machining. I love tools with soul, which draws me to the more off-brand imported beauties. 

Thank you all for feedback, still deciding on the exact route to take. Please feel free to offer up more suggestions as you see fit.

-Brad


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## Fran Rendina (Dec 30, 2013)

+1 to that !


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## BradH (Dec 30, 2013)

I have been looking into the Takeda, Yoshikane, and Konosuke lines.

Any opinions, thoughts, or comments?


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## Timthebeaver (Dec 30, 2013)

Personally I think that a Yoshikane is better than a Takeda in every way that is important in a gyuto. Be aware that recently, Takeda has changed their grind/geometry (it would seem) - not for the better either.

There are many different Konosukes, they are a reseller rather than a blacksmith's shop (I believe).


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## BradH (Dec 30, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> Personally I think that a Yoshikane is better than a Takeda in every way that is important in a gyuto. Be aware that recently, Takeda has changed their grind/geometry (it would seem) - not for the better either.
> 
> There are many different Konosukes, they are a reseller rather than a blacksmith's shop (I believe).



I will dive a bit more into the Yoshikane research then. It seems like the 2 main go to sites don't carry the line though. Would getting some of these imports be much cheaper to get at if in Japan? I don't think I can wait now, but my friend's father goes to Japan 3-4 times a year. He just got back from a lengthy stay though.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 30, 2013)

BradH said:


> I will dive a bit more into the Yoshikane research then. It seems like the 2 main go to sites don't carry the line though. Would getting some of these imports be much cheaper to get at if in Japan? I don't think I can wait now, but my friend's father goes to Japan 3-4 times a year. He just got back from a lengthy stay though.



Brad, The Epicurean Edge carries several lines of Yoshikane knives, and is a supporting vendor of KKF. I think it qualifies as a "main go to site", at least for me. Check it out for other knives, as well. 

Rick


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## BradH (Dec 30, 2013)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Brad, The Epicurean Edge carries several lines of Yoshikane knives, and is a supporting vendor of KKF. I think it qualifies as a "main go to site", at least for me. Check it out for other knives, as well.
> 
> Rick


Thanks, checking it out now!
Edit: this is where my current lead on a yoshikane is actually!


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## labor of love (Dec 30, 2013)

if you buy something from epicurean edge, dont forget to apply your 10%off for being a forum member. its easy to do, and is explained in The EE subforum


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## daveb (Dec 30, 2013)

Yoshikane has taken the kurouchi (sp?) finish to an art form with their SLD knives. I currently have an 210 SKD that gets picked up and used a lot, esp when considering its too short. You may have to reach a little deeper than you had planned but its only painful once.


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## BradH (Dec 30, 2013)

daveb said:


> Yoshikane has taken the kurouchi (sp?) finish to an art form with their SLD knives. I currently have an 210 SKD that gets picked up and used a lot, esp when considering its too short. You may have to reach a little deeper than you had planned but its only painful once.


Oh I saw that line alright, I just cant really afford double my current intended investment... maybe up to 330$ range max.



labor of love said:


> if you buy something from epicurean edge, dont forget to apply your 10%off for being a forum member. its easy to do, and is explained in The EE subforum


Awesome tip, thanks!


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## Timthebeaver (Dec 30, 2013)

The SKD is not the most fashionable or esoteric (mainly because it's been "known" for a long time), but in terms of performance/price, it's right up there, imo.


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## BradH (Dec 30, 2013)

I am actually looking at the Yoshikane SKD 240mm and the Kamagoro 240mm.
I am unfamiliar with the steel used in the kamagoro, but I have read that it may be made by the same company as yoshikane? It is a slightly cheaper blade with a more rustic kurouchi finish that I like. 
Edit: Read it was blue 2, but an angle of 30degrees seems pretty hefty, not sure if that is the right path

I also have the idea to get whatever blade I buy rehandled with a professional sharpening in about a year using known services after reading this review: http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/ktknv/kumagoro/kumagorogy240.shtml

Can anyone guide me on known differences between kamagoro and yoshikane?
Edit: I guess the main difference really is just the stainless steel versus the more raw carbon.

Also now looking over the Ikeda found here: CKTG /taik24dagy.html


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## daveb (Dec 30, 2013)

"Can anyone guide me on known differences between kamagoro and yoshikane?"

If this question was posed on EE's subforum then they could address it. Forum rules preclude vendors from offering anything that might be perceived as subjective in this part.


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## BradH (Dec 30, 2013)

daveb said:


> "Can anyone guide me on known differences between kamagoro and yoshikane?"
> 
> If this question was posed on EE's subforum then they could address it. Forum rules preclude vendors from offering anything that might be perceived as subjective in this part.


Good point, was more hoping for difference in feel or F&F from first hand experience. Or advice which was to lean.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 30, 2013)

Brad, the fit and finish of the Kumagoro is not quite up to that of the Yoshikane, or at least that's the way it was three years ago when I briefly had a Kumagoro. It may have change in that time. 

The core steel in the Kumagoro is Takefu V2, which is an excellent steel, but the SKD tool steel in the Yoshikane hammered is just a tad better in terms of edge holding. (BTW, Takefu V2 is the core steel in the soft iron clad Kochi.)

As you will be using it in a home environment, the differences are pretty much academic, as you'll likely not dice forty pounds of onions at one time.

Either knife will suit your needs well, but since you seem to be leaning toward the Kumagoru, I say go for it. Keep in mind that there's always the B/S/T sub forum, in case you decide to sell it and move to another knife.

Rick


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## BradH (Dec 30, 2013)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Brad, the fit and finish of the Kumagoro is not quite up to that of the Yoshikane, or at least that's the way it was three years ago when I briefly had a Kumagoro. It may have change in that time.
> 
> The core steel in the Kumagoro is Takefu V2, which is an excellent steel, but the SKD tool steel in the Yoshikane hammered is just a tad better in terms of edge holding. (BTW, Takefu V2 is the core steel in the soft iron clad Kochi.)
> 
> ...



You hit it right on the head about it being academic and not really practical use type of decision. It is why I am willing to go with a bit better Fit and Finish, but still something old school with some soul. This is why the Shun isnt overly appealing to me. After looking over the kumagoro, the kochi isn't quite the same on looks, except for the handle. I am thinking of a rehandle when I get this sharpened in about a year anyways. Not to mention the Kochi is sold out in 240mm.

I imagine the yoshikane requires a bit less work on keeping it rust free though, which is something that is making me consider both options. Already scouted for camelia oil though.

Still need to find out more information on the Takumi Ikeda 240mm. It seems like a really solid knife in terms of steel and cost.

-Brad


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## Timthebeaver (Dec 31, 2013)

Don't get hung up on steel type, or fall for steel hype. There is a disturbing trend in some quarters to tirelessly search for the next unobtainium superhypermegasteel (after all, it means more sales as some people/suckers have to have the latest and greatest, be it knives or otherwise) and tend to like things they can categorise, like percentage of element X,Y,Z, Rockwell hardness etc.

Fact is there are a slew of good cutlery steels out there, and hyperbole is rife. Having steel A,B or C doesn't matter a jot if the geometry of the knife is subpar - it'll still cut like crap.


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## jaybett (Dec 31, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> Don't get hung up on steel type, or fall for steel hype. There is a disturbing trend in some quarters to tirelessly search for the next unobtainium superhypermegasteel (after all, it means more sales as some people/suckers have to have the latest and greatest, be it knives or otherwise) and tend to like things they can categorise, like percentage of element X,Y,Z, Rockwell hardness etc.
> 
> Fact is there are a slew of good cutlery steels out there, and hyperbole is rife. Having steel A,B or C doesn't matter a jot if the geometry of the knife is subpar - it'll still cut like crap.



What he said. 

It is easy to get caught up in steel types, Rockwell hardness, carbides etc.... What matters is the knife makers ability to work with the steel. It can be frustrating learning about different makers. You will find posts with positive and negative reviews about the same maker. There are also forum trends. All it takes is a well known user to gush about the performance of a knife to start a trend. 

To help make a decision get in contact with the vendors. Jon and Maxsim are knife enthusiasts, who know what high end knife users want. Epicurean Edge and Korin have been in the business a long time, and will assist buyers in making a good decision. 

The Buy/Sell/Trade forum is a good way to try out a variety of knifes at a good price. 

Jay


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## BradH (Jan 8, 2014)

Finally going to send out some emails to the major shops and get their opinion and best options for my price range and interest.
Thanks everyone for your input thus far, I will be sure to report what knife I end up with.


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## Miles (Jan 8, 2014)

Slightly OT, but the eyes were playing tricks on me when I opened the forum. I caught the title out of the corner of my eye as I scanned across it. For a sec, I thought this thread was "Should I trade in my wife?" 

Thankfully, figuring out whether to get a new knife is typically much easier. The answer is almost always, "Yes!" That said, it's very easy to get bogged down in the minutae of different knives, steels, etc. Get some sound advice and then go with your gut. I don't think you'll be unhappy with any of the narrowed choices you've mentioned.


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## bahamaroot (Jan 9, 2014)

It's a gift from your parents, suck it up and use it.


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