# Anyone else feel this way?



## TheDispossessed (Nov 27, 2013)

Almost two years into cooking in NYC and here's some feelings I can't seem to get away from.

This industry is totally broken. Cooks are grossly underpaid, Restaurants rarely are profitable, and customers are paying more than ever for less and less food (small plates, tapas style, I say BS). This doesn't add up right? 
So here's my theory: 
The economy and food system is in a state of global collapse that few are willing to recognize. Fuel and food prices are skyrocketing.
The labor costs are too high, despite the fact that we get paid so little because the food is too f'in complicated to prep. Chefs are in a constant struggle for recognition and the food is actually suffering as they try to constantly outdo each other.
There are other issues, but to me, these seem to be two of the bigger ones.

I just spent a week in LA. Every Korean restaurant i went to delivered an incredible meal, loaded with the customary sides for $8.99. So my head is spinning. All these young chefs in NYC talk about value, like the think they're giving you a deal on fine dining in their hip restaurant so you should be happy to pay $30 for a 4oz piece of fish and expect the server to be visibly displeased when you opt out of first course.

Comments Please.


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## turbochef422 (Nov 27, 2013)

The last place I worked on Long Island was packed everyday and barely broke even. Its worse than ever and while prices of everything goes up the guys on the line still make the same amount as when I went to school 12 years ago. Im a lucky one being the executive chef for a company that has several catering places that help their restaurants out. They have money and i havent worked for someone with money in a long time. Its a good feeling but if food prices go up any more who knows whats gonna happen. I have a feeling in a year or so alot of beef is going to be cut off of menus everywhere


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## quantumcloud509 (Nov 27, 2013)

I feel ya man. Dont know what it is but something is def in the air. But a few things will always fetch money: food, sex, and drugs/alcohol. You will win in the end- hang in there man!


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## Admin (Nov 27, 2013)

TheDispossessed said:


> Almost two years into cooking in NYC and here's some feelings I can't seem to get away from.
> 
> This industry is totally broken. Cooks are grossly underpaid, Restaurants rarely are profitable, and customers are paying more than ever for less and less food (small plates, tapas style, I say BS). This doesn't add up right?
> So here's my theory:
> ...



I had to leave the kitchen because as a Kitchen Manager I couldn't pay the bills. I hated doing it. Cooking is in my blood, and always will be.


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## TheDispossessed (Nov 27, 2013)

Right now in NYC, the best casual restaurants are offering line cooks between $9-12 per hour, with a rare few maybe going a little more. And as for fine dining i think it pays even worse once you consider the hours. That's insane! I mean, taking home $400-600 a week in NYC in 2013 as a skilled professional putting in 60+ hours!!! There's no way to have a decent life on that income. NO WAY. You can go into literally any retail establishment without any skills or education and get paid the same or more and putz around like a boob and get a half hour break every damn day. 
Of course the servers, who give a damn even less than the dishwashers are doing fine. 
THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE PEOPLE.
They did a pretty good job of getting us to think unions were bad, well look who's screwed now. Management will always screw you more than a union.


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## TheDispossessed (Nov 27, 2013)

It might be nice to think, oh well without unions or good pay it keeps people out of the profession who don't perform or love it enough to sacrifice, but i think that's BS now. If it keeps going this way the only people who will be able to cook will be kids with money behind them.


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## tkern (Nov 27, 2013)

The are unions in professional kitchens. From what I've seen of them has be increasingly bad cooks and a sense of lazy entitlement. 

Yes, the system is crap. But... I have found that cooks live a life well beyond what most people know. Do I make a lot of money? F- no. But I can call up a number of people and have an amazing meal/night/whatever that most people that hold regular high paying jobs never will. I can work in a place where my personal weirdness is part of the family, not pushed down in a corporate HR censorship. 

Long term aspects i.e. retirement, children, etc are rough for cooks. It takes planning, putting money away, not spending it all on PBR and Fernet, and pushing yourself to take a further sense of responsibility and take the step to either open your own place or work with a restaurant group that's ethics are in tune with yours.


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## labor of love (Nov 27, 2013)

if you adjust for inflation, you should see that right now food prices are at an all time low, and furthermore americans are actually paying less for food than ever in history. i think this generation of americans have come to expect meals to be bargain priced too often without consideration for the consequences(i think this has much to do with generations being raised on fast food prices). there was a time when every person understood the worth of paying good money for a good meal. now its just about the bottom line. however i cant relate to the small plate BS going on in your area, in my area fantastic restaurants put out great small plates for $8-12.
People have come to expect to pay next to nothing for cuisine sometimes, but at the sametime I agree with you many trendy restaurants charge out the a$$ for no apparent reason. ofcourse in NYC isnt the property rent almost always sky high? and to maintain you have to charge out the a$$? vicious cycle.


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## gic (Nov 27, 2013)

I've never understood why the industry evolved so that waitstaff makes significantly more than line cooks.

Can anyone explain how that happened?? 

Moreover, while my understanding from my friends who are pros is their salaries are stagnant, if anything, there has been an increase in the tips expected from 15->20% over the last 10 or 15 years and, since tips are tied to prices, waitstaff stays ahead of inflation and line drops further and further behind...

Speaking as an amateur who thinks the world of you pros, it does seem really unfair...


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## Johnny.B.Good (Nov 27, 2013)

I know next to nothing about how restaurants operate. Do waitstaff not routinely split their tips with the back of house?


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## labor of love (Nov 27, 2013)

Johnny.B.Good said:


> I know next to nothing about how restaurants operate. Do waitstaff not routinely split their tips with the back of house?



:laugh::laugh::goodpost:
uh.....hell no johnny.


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## mr drinky (Nov 27, 2013)

labor of love said:


> :laugh::laugh::goodpost:
> uh.....hell no johnny.



When I was a lowly dishwasher back in the mid-90s there was a tip sharing process where I worked. Granted, the percentages were way off, but they punched their tips into a wall thingy and it spread a percentage of the tips out to busboys, hostess, and cooks -- but NOT the dishwasher. 

k.


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## labor of love (Nov 27, 2013)

Johnny.B.Good said:


> I know next to nothing about how restaurants operate. Do waitstaff not routinely split their tips with the back of house?





mr drinky said:


> When I was a lowly dishwasher back in the mid-90s there was a tip sharing process where I worked. Granted, the percentages were way off, but they punched their tips into a wall thingy and it spread a percentage of the tips out to busboys, hostess, and cooks -- but NOT the dishwasher.
> 
> k.


yeah it may happen every once in a while. but certainly not anything i would characterize as "routine"


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## Salty dog (Nov 27, 2013)

The OP is dead on.
It's about percentages. In order to serve a good quality center of the plate entree these days it's going to cost you and the customer. With the economy, operators wanted to keep their menu prices down but keep the same percentages. Hence the re-birth of pork and lesser cuts of beef and other animals. Along with small plates etc. 
One thing I learned awhile ago was that people will try to spend what they plan to when they eat out. If the menu prices are lower they'll make it up in additional courses or on drinks. Hence the re-birth of the cocktail. But hey, that plate only cost seven bucks. (With about a buck fitty on it)


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## Johnny.B.Good (Nov 27, 2013)

labor of love said:


> yeah it may happen every once in a while. but certainly not anything i would characterize as "routine"



I'm surprised that most owners/managers don't require the waitstaff to share their tips with the rest of the staff. I have had bad service in the past and still tipped well because the food was great and I thought a poor tip from me would punish the cooks!


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## ThEoRy (Nov 27, 2013)

Johnny.B.Good said:


> I know next to nothing about how restaurants operate. Do waitstaff not routinely split their tips with the back of house?



Bwahahaha! Good one mate.


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## JDA_NC (Nov 28, 2013)

TheDispossessed said:


> Right now in NYC, the best casual restaurants are offering line cooks between $9-12 per hour, with a rare few maybe going a little more. And as for fine dining i think it pays even worse once you consider the hours. That's insane! I mean, taking home $400-600 a week in NYC in 2013 as a skilled professional putting in 60+ hours!!! There's no way to have a decent life on that income. NO WAY. You can go into literally any retail establishment without any skills or education and get paid the same or more and putz around like a boob and get a half hour break every damn day.
> Of course the servers, who give a damn even less than the dishwashers are doing fine.
> THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE PEOPLE.
> They did a pretty good job of getting us to think unions were bad, well look who's screwed now. Management will always screw you more than a union.



NYC seems like the most brutal market to be in as a cook. There has been a lot of press about how hard it is getting for restaurants to find cooks. I've never been to New York so I don't know what it's like - but those numbers seems ridiculous. Cooks don't really live great ever :rofl2: but you can get by on that sort of pay easier in other areas.

Then again you do have different experiences. If I was cooking dope Japanese vegetarian tasting menus all night then I would be ***** tap dancing down them streets... Until I realized a pack of smokes cost me $12


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## Chef Niloc (Nov 28, 2013)

TheDispossessed said:


> Right now in NYC, the best casual restaurants are offering line cooks between $9-12 per hour, with a rare few maybe going a little more. And as for fine dining i think it pays even worse once you consider the hours. That's insane! I mean, taking home $400-600 a week in NYC in 2013 as a skilled professional putting in 60+ hours!!! There's no way to have a decent life on that income. NO WAY. You can go into literally any retail establishment without any skills or education and get paid the same or more and putz around like a boob and get a half hour break every damn day.
> Of course the servers, who give a damn even less than the dishwashers are doing fine.
> THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE PEOPLE.
> They did a pretty good job of getting us to think unions were bad, well look who's screwed now. Management will always screw you more than a union.


*** you got that right, but I didn't think it was THAT bad?? I have only intervened at two places in the city recently and I thought there line cooks were getting payed a little low, but I guess not? I thought to myself that the place gets away with it B/C cooks just want the name on there resume. Now it's A little funny that during a interview I asked the management "what's the biggest challenge you find running this restaurant", the answer??? Employee turnover, double edged sword.
I have notice that kitchen pay has been getting worse over the past 5-6 years... Yes waitstaff somehow now make more than some cooks hourly and get tips, it's even better I have never herd waitstaff complain so much about their paychecks! I guess back in the day there was nothing to complain about (pun intended), but seriously they actually complain that they're only getting minimum wage... It's making me feel old but seriously a lot of these kids have no clue that waitstaff used to make, what 3.25 a few years ago?? 
Back to the kitchen, my 1st job in NY (and the reason I moved here) was way out on long island in west Hampton. I was just hired as a cook (but did the job of a sous chef ), the pay range in the kitchen was $10-$18 cash and dishwasher got 8, this was 1998. The restaurant I'm at now the kitchen is getting $10-$12 on the books, this is crap pay but I know it's not that much better elsewhere... And after reading this thread I really know it's not that much better elsewhere.

note to self: think of possible career change?


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## labor of love (Nov 28, 2013)

wow...screw that pay. im in a small market myself but i make quite a bit more holding down the broiler 55hours a week. if i could relive my 20s all over again i wouldve loved to slave away at some famous/trendy/whatever place where i could absorb whatever knowledge those above me were willing to share. but payrates like that....its like they almost want employee turnovers.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 28, 2013)

I worked mostly Hotels,the reasturant Waiter's shared wt. busboys.Only during Christmas they would give cooks & pantry that served them 50.00 each.

I can't complain working close to 40 yrs. in the kitchen.I started out as busboy at a reasturant then went to waiter it was not for me,I sucked.Italian reasturant in Waikiki,Chef asked me if wanted to cook that was it.

Most Hotels had Union,workers could not be lazy in the kitchen,with pay & benefits of workers we were never overstaffed.I got alot of help setting up parties & putting up Ice scluptures fr.banquet busboys.Only Kahala was like that people always jump in to help were it was needed,no that's not my job stuff.

It does seem that many in the US grew up on fast food,some of these kids that ate junk all their life have medical problems in their 30's & 40's.Janice & I like to go out and eat tho mostly I cook at home.We like Japanese food,Korean is good too wt. the fresh vegitables.I like to eat Mexican.Rarely do we pay more than 20.00 each we both like seafood so I cook alot of fish.


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## marc4pt0 (Nov 28, 2013)

Since day one at my place I've always made it policy that 5% of service tips goes to the back of the house. From dish to lead line cook, but not salaried employees, only hourly.Ultimately it doesn't amount to much, maybe gas money for one week, but it's still something.

Now things are changing though. Our brilliant governor of Maryland has decided to create a law that disallows employers to "take" from a server's gratuity. Yet if we as a restaurant add auto gratuity to a check, we can then distribute these tips as we see fit. The only catch is we as a restaurant we are now responsible to pay a 6% tax on this tip which then goes on to an employee's check and gets taxed again. If we wanted to, we could charge the guest this 6% tax but this would just look weird on a check and create problems with guests for certain. Now, if the party is 10 guests or more,I believe there's a tax relief or simply no tax at all on the gratuity. Strangely I can't recall, but I know we never auto-grat unless the party is ten or more, unless it's our chef's table which seats up to 8. In which case the kitchen gets a bit larger cut of the gratuity since it basically does most of the work.


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## marc4pt0 (Nov 28, 2013)

Also keep in mind that cooks can always earn more, say like 15$+ an hour by working for those big corporate steak house places or cheese cake factories. You don't learn sh*t and have piss for a future for the most part, but you get a better paycheck for the moment.


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## Chef Niloc (Nov 30, 2013)

marc4pt0 said:


> You don't learn sh*t and have piss for a future for the most part, but you get a better paycheck for the moment.



That's the same speech they give kids that want to drop out of high school.


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## Chuckles (Nov 30, 2013)

I have found that paying a couple of dollars more per hour is worth it. Less wasted food and much higher productivity. If labor is at 12% and food cost runs at 30% the chances of hitting 27% food cost are MUCH better if you let your labor drift to 13% by investing in a one or two higher hourly rates. A true bad a$$ in the kitchen is still a tremendous value at $15 per hour. 

Of course no one thinks that way. I once tried to leave a sous position at a very nice restaurant to go hourly because I was burning out. I couldn't find anything that would start over $12.


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## bear1889 (Nov 30, 2013)

I am going to open my mouth, when I do I usually add my foot in there. But as non-restaurant person, I am just a home cook, is it because the cost of food is going up? In a large metro area like NYC transportation cost of food has to be astronomical? If your food costs would go down would that help? I am curious I and another gentlemen have been working on an idea.


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## quantumcloud509 (Nov 30, 2013)

I have been making $10-$12/h for the past 7 years in the food industry. It just doesnt get much better than this. The place im at now, I told him I will walk if he pays me less than $12, and he said ok- hell pay me, but his salary guys average a lot less than that. What I hate is that most restaurants in washington state pay out a dividend of $1/hour from the waiters tips. WHAT THE $&@!. Pisses me off so bad. I sweat run burn myself cut myself and have to be precise and thoughtful where the servers are slow and retarded and get paid 3-6x more per night just because of tips. Ive seen tips stuffed in pockets, Ive noticed on average $20 tips at tables, but I get $1 an hour and that gets recorded and taxed at the end of the year. [email protected]! Server a few weeks ago: "oh my gosh guys you wont believe it, they said it was the best food ever and they left us a $100 tip". Great, well I only got one fin dollar per hour tip out that day. Wish she would have kept her mouth shut. Now im all fired up because of this thread and prolly gonna be a jerk at work towards the waitstaff today. Great.

Oh yeah the two best paying jobs Ive had in the food industry were soulless bs sandwich place jobs where I worked as cook and server at the same time and I canned them both for much lesser pay and more respect for food. Fml.


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## NO ChoP! (Nov 30, 2013)

Try running a kitchen in the midst of a Country Club, while the GM, AGM, club manager, asst. club manager, F&B director, asst. F&B director, team captains and the maitre di all chat and drink coffee; so loud, mind you, I have to shout tickets to the cooks. 

But I'm at the top of my payscale already...kissoff!!!


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## hambone.johnson (Nov 30, 2013)

I think its New York to be honest. Im from All over Maryland and PA area, working everywhere from isolated fine dinning bed and breakfasts to down town Baltimore and Washington DC and a touch in Philly and then I moved to Chicago. I have always had the ability to earn a solid living and make good money. even when I left management to go back to a line cook position for Michel Richard and then moved to Chicago to work at TRU I was making around 1k every 2 weeks. its not like I was swimming in it but at least I could put gas in the truck and pay bills. I think its just that you are in NYC and EVERYTING is so inflated in that market, its part of why I never wanted to live there, Thomas Keller couldn't pay me enough to.

In Chicago we have an absurd amount of local places for just the local people. sure you can blow your 5-700$ for a meal at TRU or GRACE because they have micheline stars. Or even go to Girl and the Goat and spend 200$, but whenever anyone comes to town and asks where I, being the chef, wants to eat we never travel much more than 20 minutes from my aptment and the check is rarely over 25$ a person, maybe a little more if you get good booze. but truth is the best food in CHI is the local BYOB taco joint, Korean chicken wing place, ect ect ect where the food is awesome and the menu is small and cheep. I think its the market your working in to be honest. That's just NYC


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## CoqaVin (Nov 30, 2013)

hambone.johnson said:


> I think its New York to be honest. Im from All over Maryland and PA area, working everywhere from isolated fine dinning bed and breakfasts to down town Baltimore and Washington DC and a touch in Philly and then I moved to Chicago. I have always had the ability to earn a solid living and make good money. even when I left management to go back to a line cook position for Michel Richard and then moved to Chicago to work at TRU I was making around 1k every 2 weeks. its not like I was swimming in it but at least I could put gas in the truck and pay bills. I think its just that you are in NYC and EVERYTING is so inflated in that market, its part of why I never wanted to live there, Thomas Keller couldn't pay me enough to.
> 
> In Chicago we have an absurd amount of local places for just the local people. sure you can blow your 5-700$ for a meal at TRU or GRACE because they have micheline stars. Or even go to Girl and the Goat and spend 200$, but whenever anyone comes to town and asks where I, being the chef, wants to eat we never travel much more than 20 minutes from my aptment and the check is rarely over 25$ a person, maybe a little more if you get good booze. but truth is the best food in CHI is the local BYOB taco joint, Korean chicken wing place, ect ect ect where the food is awesome and the menu is small and cheep. I think its the market your working in to be honest. That's just NYC



I agree with you it must be NYC not just because of the cost of living they seem to pay people lower which doesn't seem to equate I am in NJ and I am not getting paid terrible at all since i just graduated culinary school last week


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 30, 2013)

Chuckles said:


> I have found that paying a couple of dollars more per hour is worth it. Less wasted food and much higher productivity. If labor is at 12% and food cost runs at 30% the chances of hitting 27% food cost are MUCH better if you let your labor drift to 13% by investing in a one or two higher hourly rates. A true bad a$$ in the kitchen is still a tremendous value at $15 per hour.
> 
> Of course no one thinks that way. I once tried to leave a sous position at a very nice restaurant to go hourly because I was burning out. I couldn't find anything that would start over $12.



Wow hard to believe sous position that cheap.Union Banquet chef & Head Gardemanger same pay 24.00 an hour worked them both.Thats why I stayed in the Union,managment you work unreal hours for what?And I have a pension & Med. Dental benefits for retirement.Nurses make 38.00 an hour in Hawaii.Some Nurses retire early to take care of seniors.They tear down old family house & build a bigger one with lots of rooms & no yard.Then they pack the houses with seniors & make a bloody fortune.


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## knyfeknerd (Nov 30, 2013)

I left the salary to go back to the line and do the hourly thing. I'm in a different setting now, but definitely feel some resentment from the salaried guys above me because I make more than they do(If you figure in hours worked, etc.)
I guess I got started at a higher hourly rate because of my age and experience. Now even the other(younger) guys resent me too because I haven't been there as long as them, but make more money. At this point, I don't really care about the money. Being resented for your pay scale and not the quality of your work sucks though. 
Even though my hourly rate is nobody's damn business but my own...........
.....yet lots of folks seem to be privy to that information.


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## Chef Niloc (Nov 30, 2013)

I think another reason NYC can/ does pay less is there is a much larger pool of people to pull from. I have worked in many other city's and just finding someone that new what they were doing was difficult process. However I will point out that restaurants are notorious for forgetting how hard it was to find these people in the first place and are more than willing to let them go if they want more money.


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## sachem allison (Nov 30, 2013)

Chef Niloc said:


> *** you got that right, but I didn't think it was THAT bad?? I have only intervened at two places in the city recently and I thought there line cooks were getting payed a little low, but I guess not? I thought to myself that the place gets away with it B/C cooks just want the name on there resume. Now it's A little funny that during a interview I asked the management "what's the biggest challenge you find running this restaurant", the answer??? Employee turnover, double edged sword.
> I have notice that kitchen pay has been getting worse over the past 5-6 years... Yes waitstaff somehow now make more than some cooks hourly and get tips, it's even better I have never herd waitstaff complain so much about their paychecks! I guess back in the day there was nothing to complain about (pun intended), but seriously they actually complain that they're only getting minimum wage... It's making me feel old but seriously a lot of these kids have no clue that waitstaff used to make, what 3.25 a few years ago??
> Back to the kitchen, my 1st job in NY (and the reason I moved here) was way out on long island in west Hampton. I was just hired as a cook (but did the job of a sous chef ), the pay range in the kitchen was $10-$18 cash and dishwasher got 8, this was 1998. The restaurant I'm at now the kitchen is getting $10-$12 on the books, this is crap pay but I know it's not that much better elsewhere... And after reading this thread I really know it's not that much better elsewhere.
> 
> note to self: think of possible career change?


Yep, at my restuarant the dishwashers only get $8 an hour and the highest paid cooks gets $10 and he has been there for 3 years. I get paid about $5 an hour once you figure in my 95/ 40 /7 day work week.(95 hours worked/ 40 hours paid/ 7 days a week and no holidays off and apparently no sick days or paid vacations)


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## Chef Niloc (Nov 30, 2013)

sachem allison said:


> Yep, at my restuarant the dishwashers only get $8 an hour and the highest paid cooks gets $10 and he has been there for 3 years. I get paid about $5 an hour once you figure in my 95/ 40 /7 day work week.(95 hours worked/ 40 hours paid/ 7 days a week and no holidays off and apparently no sick days or paid vacations)



Son I'm check your math, 95 hr x. $5 a hr is 475.00, is that before or after taxes? Are there any side perks? You know, Company car, Rolex for Christmas, Russian hookers, you know that kind of stuff?

Wait, just curious how do you not get sick days when you're on salary? what do they do, dock your salary if you call in sick? How do they come up with the $$ number to subtract from your salary?


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## Dardeau (Nov 30, 2013)

Entry level pay here in New Orleans is about 12/hr for solid line cooks. Salaried, you make less than that, and you don't do the math because it just hurts.


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## Chef Niloc (Nov 30, 2013)

Dardeau said:


> Entry level pay here in New Orleans is about 12/hr for solid line cooks. Salaried, you make less than that, and you don't do the math because it just hurts.


I went to school and lived in New Orleans for 5 years. I worked in restaurants the whole time I was there and the pay was the same... Exactly the same when I moved I was making 12 hour, this was 1995! This thread is starting to scare me, 20 years and the pay scale hasn't gone up?


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## sachem allison (Nov 30, 2013)

Chef Niloc said:


> Son I'm check your math, 95 hr x. $5 a hr is 475.00, is that before or after taxes? Are there any side perks? You know, Company car, Rolex for Christmas, Russian hookers, you know that kind of stuff?
> 
> Wait, just curious how do you not get sick days when you're on salary? what do they do, dock your salary if you call in sick? How do they come up with the $$ number to subtract from your salary?


the perks are everyday I take it up the arse with no vaseline. I don't take sick days because, if I miss a day he docks me. I get paid on a 7 day work week but, if I miss a day, he docks my pay. he divides it by a 5 day work week. That way he can take a bigger chunk. When I had my triple bypass he docked me a weeks pay even though 2 of the days were my scheduled days off. I had a stroke came to work the next morning because, he would have docked me if I missed .This is why I'm leaving. When I leave there will be hell to pay. I have kept all my time records and every incident, both in hard copies and weekly email conversations with him. I have been actively seeking to leave for over a year but, I haven't received a single interview out of 300 resumes and the 4 head hunters I have haven't been any help. That's one of the reasons I think I need to head west.


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## sachem allison (Nov 30, 2013)

Chef Niloc said:


> Son I'm check your math, 95 hr x. $5 a hr is 475.00, is that before or after taxes? Are there any side perks? You know, Company car, Rolex for Christmas, Russian hookers, you know that kind of stuff?
> 
> Wait, just curious how do you not get sick days when you're on salary? what do they do, dock your salary if you call in sick? How do they come up with the $$ number to subtract from your salary?



A little bit more $ than that but, not much if you figure out I work a lot of 100 hr+weeks in there also. I think we figured it out at about $8 an hour today. So I work twice as many hours as my dishwasher and get paid the same rate. It makes more sense to me to be a line cook and not have the responsibility. No one will hire and Executive Chef as a line cook because, I'm suddenly over qualified or obviously something is wrong with me. lol


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## Chef Niloc (Dec 1, 2013)

sachem allison said:


> A little bit more $ than that but, not much if you figure out I work a lot of 100 hr+weeks in there also. I think we figured it out at about $8 an hour today. So I work twice as many hours as my dishwasher and get paid the same rate. It makes more sense to me to be a line cook and not have the responsibility. No one will hire and Executive Chef as a line cook because, I'm suddenly over qualified or obviously something is wrong with me. lol



Well 1) Of course there's something wrong with you
2nd if you want to apply for a lower position but don't want to lie on your resume just don't put your title, put kitchen...or just lie and say cook, very rarely does anyone check out cooks references.
3) do you have any idea why you are not geting interviews? Let me check out your resume, maybe I can help.

Oh and one more thing tomorrow morning when you going to work grab your ankles, it hurts less that way.


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## TheDispossessed (Dec 1, 2013)

i know someone who took a job for a very famous nyc chef with his new restaurant this past year. starting pay $9/hr for an experienced line cook. when they ran into some financial trouble getting the restaurant up and running they temporarily took all their line down to $8. insane.


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## Chef Niloc (Dec 1, 2013)

TheDispossessed said:


> i know someone who took a job for a very famous nyc chef with his new restaurant this past year. starting pay $9/hr for an experienced line cook. when they ran into some financial trouble getting the restaurant up and running they temporarily took all their line down to $8. insane.



This is the second time I've heard about pay cuts in our industry the other time was just a few months ago. before that I didn't even know they existed.

Here's one for the book: I'm waiting for the last person to leave so I can lock up, I'm closing tonight for one of the managers who I let go home early because he hurt his foot. I just got off the phone with the owner who told me "don't send home salaried employees I need to get my money out of them"
I sad (a little taken back send a little bewildered) but I'm here closing and I'm on salary so it's not costing you anything?
His reply was "yea I get my money out of you I need to make sure I get out of him"
I sad ok won't happen again  
I think I'll put in my notice tomorrow, boy new this guy was a scumbag but WOW 
So remember boys: you got to get your money out of them salaried employee, got it earn them dam dollars with blood,sweat and tears. It's not the job you do or how well you do that earns your paycheck it's how much you suffer for it. Got it? Good!


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## labor of love (Dec 1, 2013)

typically, when im jumping ship from one restaurant for the next, the first thing i consider is the numbers(besides the cuisine ofcourse).the place i just got in at is extremely busy. every freaking day. we did 750 covers for thanksgiving, selling mainly a $30 turkey spec, and we were only open from 11am-4pm the last place never came close to those kinda numbers even the 13-14 hours of service on the weekend. and my pay here in Baton Rouge casts quite a large shadow over what the new york line cooks are making. 
making $8 hour working under some super impressive world renown chef would be a super cool alternative to culinary school IMO but thats no way to make a living.


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## labor of love (Dec 1, 2013)

Chef Niloc said:


> This is the second time I've heard about pay cuts in our industry the other time was just a few months ago. before that I didn't even know they existed.
> 
> Here's one for the book: I'm waiting for the last person to leave so I can lock up, I'm closing tonight for one of the managers who I let go home early because he hurt his foot. I just got off the phone with the owner who told me "don't send home salaried employees I need to get my money out of them"
> I sad (a little taken back send a little bewildered) but I'm here closing and I'm on salary so it's not costing you anything?
> ...


wow, if you ever wanted to build resentment against ownership follow this A-hole owner's lead.


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## TheDispossessed (Dec 1, 2013)

yea, so you take a job with these 'chefs' (who rarely are around or cooking) and take brutal pay to compensate for what you consider to be an education. so as an 'alternative' to culinary school it seems initially at least, to be a smart move. the money you make in two years of being on the line plus what it would have cost for school puts you that far ahead with real world experience. 
however, the end result is still being deposited into this job market where considerable skills and responsibility get you something around $10/hr with little to no benefits.
i'm at the point where i am seriously thinking of leaving the profession because i can't see a future in it. 
why?
because i can't be a line cook forever and live that life and make that money.
being a sous sounds worse if it means a ****** salary and a billion hours.
the long road to exec then delivers what?
the same insane hours as the sous and other salaried with a more reasonable salary.
at that point, if you're feeling frisky, there's the prospect of opening a place (which would seem to be the goal in the first place), which will almost inevitably (according to statistics) fail. at the very least, if it is successful, your life is over.
and then there's .0001% of people who pull through and become famous for some reason, usually deserving to some degree but sometimes not...
i seriously value this thread and appreciate everyone's input. 
thanks for being willing to go there, i didn't want to get anyone down, i know it's not a very positive topic.


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## TheDispossessed (Dec 1, 2013)

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the national median wage for line cooks in 2011 was $10.61.


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## shaneg (Dec 1, 2013)

sachem allison said:


> the perks are everyday I take it up the arse with no vaseline. I don't take sick days because, if I miss a day he docks me. I get paid on a 7 day work week but, if I miss a day, he docks my pay. he divides it by a 5 day work week. That way he can take a bigger chunk. When I had my triple bypass he docked me a weeks pay even though 2 of the days were my scheduled days off. I had a stroke came to work the next morning because, he would have docked me if I missed .This is why I'm leaving. When I leave there will be hell to pay. I have kept all my time records and every incident, both in hard copies and weekly email conversations with him. I have been actively seeking to leave for over a year but, I haven't received a single interview out of 300 resumes and the 4 head hunters I have haven't been any help. That's one of the reasons I think I need to head west.


****, that sounds crap.

In NZ, minimum wage is $13.50.
I'm the head chef at my place and earn $30/hr, I pay my cdp's between $18-$22. Dishies/kitchen hands $14.50-$15/hr.

I regularly work 50-60 hrs. And we get 10% of tips..

Australia pays quite well also, they have quite a good dollar atm and their restaurant scene is doing well.
A friend just got back from Sydney earning $28/hr temping.


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## knyfeknerd (Dec 1, 2013)

Yep, we're all pretty screwed. 
Pretty sad to think how little everyone makes, I honestly figured it would have gone up some-at least to adjust with inflation over the past decade. 
I wonder how much the Microwave Chefs at Applebees make.


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## labor of love (Dec 1, 2013)

knyfeknerd said:


> Yep, we're all pretty screwed.
> Pretty sad to think how little everyone makes, I honestly figured it would have gone up some-at least to adjust with inflation over the past decade.
> I wonder how much the Microwave Chefs at Applebees make.


ive found that many of the crappy chains pay their cooks the same hourly if not more than the fining dining places. but the catch is corporate will never let you score overtime, and i get plenty of that regularly.


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## sachem allison (Dec 1, 2013)

Chef Niloc said:


> This is the second time I've heard about pay cuts in our industry the other time was just a few months ago. before that I didn't even know they existed.
> 
> Here's one for the book: I'm waiting for the last person to leave so I can lock up, I'm closing tonight for one of the managers who I let go home early because he hurt his foot. I just got off the phone with the owner who told me "don't send home salaried employees I need to get my money out of them"
> I sad (a little taken back send a little bewildered) but I'm here closing and I'm on salary so it's not costing you anything?
> ...


Had pretty much this exact conversation with the owner this morning at brunch.


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## cookinstuff (Dec 1, 2013)

This is a sensitive one. Up here in Canada, atleast in the Toronto area, rent and housing is the most absurd thing, next to the pay line cooks receive. So, we are in the same situation as the NYC guys, if you want to rent an apartment, hope you got 2k a month before you start figuring things like eating food, and a vehicle. You want to own a townhouse or a condo? Better have 500k sitting around, or atleast 100k for a down payment. It's mighty hard to afford to live on your own (go get a room mate, what you think you are? a person with a standard for living, geez your a cook, get over yourself) on your 10$ an hr, even working 100hrs a week, your basically stuck to eating twice a day at work if your lucky and living off cereal otherwise :hungry:

Up here I have found if you want to make money, go work in a hotel and deal with the bs that goes along with it. (I'm a restaurant cook, and probably always will be, I can't leave the line, it's my home) Or you could go work at some garbage chain slanging crappy food out all day, bad food, or hotel food, those are your options. I did the hotel thing for a couple years about 10 years ago, and I made more money then, actually I made 3$ an hr more 10 years ago than I do now. I made good money, well good as far as cook's standards go, but I HATED my job, and none of the food I did made me happy. I find I can sleep easier, and actually want to work when I'm putting out quality food, and I can absolutely eat a smaller paycheque. I have also done apprenticeships and worked many free 100hr work weeks when I was a kid, I got together a really good resume, worked for some great chefs and learned alot, don't regret a bit of it, and I'm definitely not paying off my studen loans still.

The one thing I take from my job is with less money, I am happier than most of my friends who make better money doing other jobs, I also have less free time. I talk about my work to my friends, talk about food, it drives them nuts, but you can see the jealousy, people wish they loved their jobs like us cooks, and it's sad we don't make the money, but atleast we aren't miserable in a cubicle, (sorry if I offended anyone who really loves their cubicle), but sorry it's not as cool as my office :biggrin:


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## cookinstuff (Dec 1, 2013)

Hell, Chris, my friend is a microwave kitchen manager, he calls himself a chef. He has no clue what cooking even is, can't even hold a knife right, but he makes about 60k a year to microwave bags of shipped in sauces that come from the states. I went into his work to help him once when he was understaffed, and I did 4 guys prep lists (the whole kitchen) before lunch service started, than they made me work lunch and tried to hire me, get this, for more than I was making ........ but, you just can't do that to yourself. I remember they looked at me like I was insane when I cut their bruschette tomatoes with a knife, the cooks were like, no you cut those in the french fry cutter. This is the average kitchen today, bunch of teenagers that are high on drugs that didn't even exist when I was younger, whatever happened to kids just coming in high on coke and weed, geez, and these are the people getting paid more than the professional cooks.


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## JDA_NC (Dec 1, 2013)

TheDispossessed said:


> yea, so you take a job with these 'chefs' (who rarely are around or cooking) and take brutal pay to compensate for what you consider to be an education. so as an 'alternative' to culinary school it seems initially at least, to be a smart move. the money you make in two years of being on the line plus what it would have cost for school puts you that far ahead with real world experience.
> however, the end result is still being deposited into this job market where considerable skills and responsibility get you something around $10/hr with little to no benefits.
> i'm at the point where i am seriously thinking of leaving the profession because i can't see a future in it.
> why?
> ...



I don't want to be a jerk....

But if you're not trying to be a sous, exec., or own your own place - then yeah, being a line cook for money and/or security is not the smartest move...

This is not the easiest way to earn money and it definitely ain't the best way to get rich.

It also looks like NYC is especially harsh. Starting pay here for solid line cooks is 11-12. I know cooks making $13-15 and you can rent a house for $600-850 depending on what and where.

One of the reasons the South is attractive to cooks IMO.


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## quantumcloud509 (Dec 1, 2013)

Hmmm...maybe moving to Oz Land isnt a bad idea after all...


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## tweyland (Dec 1, 2013)

For what it's worth, my understanding is that (at least in California), owners/management cannot force waitstaff to split their tips with the Back Of the House-kitchen, only to bussers, runners, etc (Front Of the House-waitstaff). That's why the French Laundry and a few other restaurants call it Service Charge rather than gratuity, so that it can be spread around the kitchen, to augment their pay.

As far as why FOH receives tips, my personal theory is that they are the face of the restaurant, and also people tip based on personality, interaction, smiling, pleasantness. People don't understand how a restaurant works anyway, so some are tipping assuming that everyone gets a cut. But they have no interaction with cooks normally, and furthermore cooks are usually a surly, bitter lot (from not being tipped). So even if they do interact, they probably wouldn't find it worth leaving a gratuity, even though the cooks make the food. The person who brought the food to them is who did the "personal service" that deserves the tip. Unfair, but in my opinion, this is why.

Although there are unusual circumstances, I think most of the usual rules of business still apply. Employees in profitable industries are usually paid better. The employees who are hardest to replace earn the most money. The employees with the most responsibility earn the most money. The employees with they fewest possible replacements (people willing to do their job) earn the most money. The employees willing to put up with the most bullsh*t that is valuable to the owner, earn the most money. The people who can get the most production out of the employees are put in charge and earn the most salary. Unfortunately for most cooks, food is not usually very profitable as an industry, there are many who are willing to take our spots, there are many who have similar knowledge as we do, we are not so willing to put up with bullsh*t, and it's not always worth stepping up to supervise the people around you. If we care about learning and the quality of food we serve, it's less likely that we'll work in fast food, or fast casual, or corporate chains, or "heat and serve" places. Many of us take a hit to work with the food we are interested in, to learn, for resume building, to prepare ourselves to open our own restaurants one day. So we make the trade off. But it still sucks to be paid less than we deserve.

Just my opinion,
~Tad


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## shaneg (Dec 1, 2013)

quantumcloud509 said:


> Hmmm...maybe moving to Oz Land isnt a bad idea after all...


Yeah its not bad, Sydney is pretty sweet, Melbourne has quite a good scene too.
Its definitely a good place to live especially if you like the hot weather and beaches. I'm more of a winter guy and enjoy my snow and so do my malamutes.


If you're bored check out www.seek.com.au, www.simply hired.com.au for jobs.
And www.smh.com.au for jobs and rental apartments/houses.

On seek now, CDP $50-$65k/year, Head Chef $85-$95k+superannuation, bonuses and tips.. Tempting anyone?

Edit: also if you're on a wage in Sydney they pay time and a half to work Saturdays and double time on Sunday.. Bring on the Sunday double shifts


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## Salty dog (Dec 1, 2013)

tweyland said:


> For what it's worth, my understanding is that (at least in California), owners/management cannot force waitstaff to split their tips with the Back Of the House-kitchen, only to bussers, runners, etc (Front Of the House-waitstaff). That's why the French Laundry and a few other restaurants call it Service Charge rather than gratuity, so that it can be spread around the kitchen, to augment their pay.
> 
> As far as why FOH receives tips, my personal theory is that they are the face of the restaurant, and also people tip based on personality, interaction, smiling, pleasantness. People don't understand how a restaurant works anyway, so some are tipping assuming that everyone gets a cut. But they have no interaction with cooks normally, and furthermore cooks are usually a surly, bitter lot (from not being tipped). So even if they do interact, they probably wouldn't find it worth leaving a gratuity, even though the cooks make the food. The person who brought the food to them is who did the "personal service" that deserves the tip. Unfair, but in my opinion, this is why.
> 
> ...



We share the same opinion.

Although you don't have to be Keller to open a restaurant. It's more about being an accountant, lawyer, banker, manager, marketeer and maybe some cooking thrown in there.


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## gic (Dec 1, 2013)

It seems to me so strange: being on the line takes so much skill and to get it people need specialized training for relatively long periods of time. 

On the other hand, my friends who have worked as waitstaff say while it does take some training, the training doesn't take but a fraction of the time it takes to learn what it takes to be on the line.

so why does a waitperson at a fine restaurant routinely make 30+ an hour after tips and line makes a fraction of this.

besides not being fair, it seems to go against all logic that the job that takes less training pays substantially more than the job that takes more...

and yet even restaurants run by chefs who have had to live through this in their youth by and large don't buck the system...

(California restaurants seem to be an occasional exception...)


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## tweyland (Dec 1, 2013)

I worked at a place where it was fast casual - people go thru a line, order rung up, food brought to them, but it was a bit nicer than the usual. The owners put up a tip jar with a sign saying something like, Your gratuities are shared by everyone, counter people thru dishwashers, we thank you. But of course, the kitchen was not explicitly exempted, it would seem to clients that they are included, but the kitchen does not participate. If there was someone who quit or whatever, or rounding error, the kitchen staff would get a fiver stapled to their paycheck, whereas the FOH was taking home a cut of the tips DAILY. When I objected to the wording of the sign, I was told to not make trouble, and the kitchen would get taken care of... which of course never happened. And it's not like they paid the kitchen even average wages - definitely less than average at the time.

Somehow people want to tip their barrista separately, and tip the bartender who pops the top on their beer, but not tip the people that make the food.


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## kpeddie2010 (Dec 1, 2013)

I agree with this thread but. The goal is to work your way up. Can't be a line cook forever. My goal was to get into the hotel industry after I paid my dues in the small kitchens. I make 50k plus workin forty a week. Just got to strive to get higher and higher


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## kpeddie2010 (Dec 1, 2013)

Dude Hawaii is hella crazy on rent. Can't live off 10 to 12 a month here u need two jobs. Rent in Hawaii roughly starts at 1100 for a studio and cost of living is crazy. But one great thing about being a cook you only need 1 things in your fridge. Beer. Bcuz I remember the days where I went whole months with not having to cook a single thing at home never leave work hungry bro


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## labor of love (Dec 1, 2013)

kpeddie2010 said:


> Dude Hawaii is hella crazy on rent. Can't live off 10 to 12 a month here u need two jobs. Rent in Hawaii roughly starts at 1100 for a studio and cost of living is crazy. But one great thing about being a cook you only need 1 things in your fridge. Beer. Bcuz I remember the days where I went whole months with not having to cook a single thing at home never leave work hungry bro


my exec said basically the same thing about cooking in cali at bouchon and french laundry(he worked at both places for like $9/hr).but the perks of eating tk family meals 3 times a day almost makes up for the lame pay.


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## Crothcipt (Dec 1, 2013)

Its funny here the bartender will get paid 10+/hr with tips, and is tipped out. The wait staff usually get 2.13 + tips (prob. has gone up since I last looked/cared). I laugh at the waitress that says she wishes she would get a pay check.


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## kpeddie2010 (Dec 1, 2013)

Life started to get good roughly after 8000 to 10000 hours in the kitchen.


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## Stumblinman (Dec 2, 2013)

OZ is my escape plan. After I pay off my debt, save for a ticket, get a sponsor, buy a visa..... Lets see $10 times........

I started doing dishes for $4.25 / hr. I knew a girl at the time making $9/hr as a secretary and thought she was rolling in it. 

I wonder how the food truck biz is.


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## banjo1071 (Dec 2, 2013)

Man 
It really breaks my heart, when i hear those numbers. Why dont you come over to CH? Skilled cooks are highly sought after un well payed! With all the thrills and frills you would expect (like 5 weeks payed holiday, payed illnessdays, pensionfund, payed extrahours ect...). 

http://www.hotelcareer.ch/jobs/koch-schweiz
http://www.jobscout24.ch/de/jobs/koch/
http://www.indeed.ch/Koch-Jobs
http://ch.gigajob.com/job/Koch__Köchin.html


Greets Benjamin


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## chefcomesback (Dec 2, 2013)

banjo1071 said:


> Man
> It really breaks my heart, when i hear those numbers. Why dont you come over to CH? Skilled cooks are highly sought after un well payed! With all the thrills and frills you would expect (like 5 weeks payed holiday, payed illnessdays, pensionfund, payed extrahours ect...).
> 
> http://www.hotelcareer.ch/jobs/koch-schweiz
> ...


Benjamin Switzerland is great , last year I had a good offer, If my wife could speak little Italian or Schwabisch(not sure?) we would have moved to Locarno. Only thing with their working visas are as far as I know it has to be sponsored by the employer. Most of the chef jobs seemed seasonal and I am not sure how easy that process would be for non eu passport holders


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## banjo1071 (Dec 2, 2013)

Hi
Seasonal they may be, but theres always season in CH in winter skiing, in summer hiking....
As for the sponsored working visa: not anymore:
http://formular.tg.ch/dokumente/tem...igration-d.pdf?CFID=64763210&CFTOKEN=92348973

Still, theres the langaugeproblem..You need to speak at least one of the four languages...


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