# "Workhorse gyuto" defined. Or is it?



## DitmasPork (Jul 30, 2019)

"Workhorse" is a term that seems to be used a lot, without a concise definition of what its definition is. To me, "workhorse gyuto" is commonly used to describe a gyuto that's perceived as heavier, more robust, and an all-around gyuto—though all of those characteristics seem subjective.

Curious on how others here define a "workhorse gyuto"?

• Is a "workhorse gyuto" simply an all-around gyuto that a cook uses to get the bulk of prepping tasks done? Some cooks love lasers, and might consider it their workhorse gyuto.

• Is a "workhorse gyuto" a knife that's particularly robust and tough, capable of enduring the abuse of a busy kitchen? A "beater" might be a good candidate to be a workhorse if just based on toughness.

• Is a "workhorse gyuto" defined by a weight to dimension ratio? Akin to how boxing weight divisions separate super flyweight from bantamweight fighters?

If it's the latter, I'd be interested to know if there's a consensus on weight to length ratio that classifies a gyuto as a workhorse.

Gyutos often referred to as "workhorses" are Watanabe, Gengetsu, Yoshikane SKD, Blazen—as well as some gyutos that have used "workhorse" as a part of the gyuto model name, i.e. Kato workhorse, Kippington workpony, Tsourkan workhorse.

My personal preferences gets me gravitating towards gyutos that fit the "workhorse" label, whatever that definition is.

Below are some of my gyutos, all of which have been called a workhorse by various people. They're quite varied in weight, grind, etc.

Left to right: Mazaki, Mazaki, Kochi, KS, Masamoto HC, Kato workhorse, Kippington workpony, Tsourkan workhorse, Watanabe.


----------



## F-Flash (Jul 30, 2019)

I would define it with one word. "Toyama"


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 30, 2019)

F-Flash said:


> I would define it with one word. "Toyama"



I don't have Toyama, but got two Watanabes (same maker as Toyama, is the word on the street)—the steel and grind are pretty awesome. So, beyond your one word—how do you define a "workhorse gyuto"?


----------



## Carl Kotte (Jul 30, 2019)

I might be wrong, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there is no definition of ’workhorse’ simply because definitions are in general quite rare. So, maybe the best we’ve got are some prototypical example/s of something we consider a workhorse (and then some further examples that resemble the prototypes to a greater or lesser extent), and - finally - some knife types that definitely are not considered workhorses (e.g. boning knives, bread knives, paring knives etc).


----------



## ian (Jul 30, 2019)

I think most people here seem to consider a workhorse a thicker knife with reasonable food release. So, option 3. One does hear options 1 and 2 in conversation, though.

(Btw, older versions seem to have been different, but the most recent batch of Gengetsus are not workhorses IMO.)


----------



## Carl Kotte (Jul 30, 2019)

ian said:


> I think most people here seem to consider a workhorse a thicker knife with reasonable food release. So, option 3. One does hear options 1 and 2 in conversation, though.
> 
> (Btw, older versions seem to have been different, but the most recent batch of Gengetsus are not workhorses IMO.)



Sounds right to me!


----------



## Lotmom (Jul 30, 2019)

I would consider a workhorse any knife that can take you through any task and survive moderate abuse.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 30, 2019)

ian said:


> I think most people here seem to consider a workhorse a thicker knife with reasonable food release. So, option 3. One does hear options 1 and 2 in conversation, though.
> 
> (Btw, older versions seem to have been different, but the most recent batch of Gengetsus are not workhorses IMO.)



I've not tried the newer Gengetsu, mine was from 2013. Lovely knife, but I never really clicked with it and traded it—same with my Fujiyama, which some people are into, but not my cup of tea.

I generally agree with you. If someone asks me to recommend a quintessential workhorse knife, my snap answer might be a Watanabe. Good food release, long lasting edge, a purely utilitarian classic. 

But I guess what I'm seeking is a more specific and concise definition for the terminology of "workhorse," that currently lacks solid consensus. I suspect much depends on primary tasks that make up the bulk of a cook's day. 

Earlier in the year I borrowed a Gesshin Heiji, beautiful and distinctive gyuto—checked many of the boxes for "workhorse," thick spined, weighty, great food release with most product. However, because of wedging on dense things, and far from being the nimblest gyutos, I'd be reluctant to use it as my "workhorse."

Personally, of the knives in the photograph, if I had to choose one "workhorse" gyuto to take with me, it would likely be a tossup between the Watanabe or Tsourkan. Though if tackling a large amount of kale, my "workhorse" might be the kochi.


----------



## labor of love (Jul 30, 2019)

Workhorse is either:
1) big and heavy with a thick spine similar to Kato workhorse.
2) a knife that has middle of the road weight, geometry etc etc and can be used as an all arounder.

The second option is open to interpretation the first option not so much.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 30, 2019)

Lotmom said:


> I would consider a workhorse any knife that can take you through any task and survive moderate abuse.



The Gonbei gyutos from JKI would fit the bill, built for toughness and abuse. My "beater" is the Masamoto HC, been through the wars and still in good shape, it used to be my unicorn, it felt like a lot of money to spend since I was coming from Sabatiers.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Workhorse is either:
> 1) big and heavy with a thick spine similar to Kato workhorse.
> 2) a knife that has middle of the road weight, geometry etc etc and can be used as an all arounder.
> 
> The second option is open to interpretation the first option not so much.



The funny thing regarding the first option, is that my Kippington workpony felt quite light and nimble since I had been using Kato and Watanabe a lot!

Perhaps the second option partially explains the popularity of Mazaki—thick robust spine, yet quite nimble with its aggressive grind and distal. Also, maybe "price point" has a place within the "workhorse" conversation, in that only cook's with exceptionally large cojones would take a $1,900 Kato into a busy pro kitchen. Whereas Mazakis and Watanabes are very accessibly priced—won't make you cry if accidentally tipped in the sink, or dropped if someone spashes scalding water on you.


----------



## Barmoley (Jul 30, 2019)

There are definitely 2 meanings to workhorse. Thicker, heavier with good food release vs tough, can take abuse. I think thicker, heavier more convex, is the more correct "definition" not that there is one. My reason is that it is easier to agree on that than on a tough knife that can take abuse. Even though both are very subjective toughness is just too difficult to define. Grind and thickness you can at least see. Incidentally thicker, heavier knives tend to be tougher all else being equal. A thick knife doesn't mean a tough knife, but there is a tendency in that direction. For example Heiji is a thick, heavy knife with good food release, but most will agree that it is not a workhorse in the toughness sense because it is heat-treated very hard and the edge is more frigile than the thickness of the knife would suggest. On the other hand you can make a very thin knife out of tough steel, heat treat it for toughness, but most would still call it a laser due to grind and how it goes through material.


----------



## GorillaGrunt (Jul 30, 2019)

I’d maybe say either an all purpose knife or one that you don’t put away for a task because it’s too fragile; many of these you might put away for a task requiring extreme precision or lightness. Good food release tends to go along with this. Maybe to be more quantitative - edge stability under impact and/or pressure? So just a few opinions:

Mazaki gyuto - yes, quite thin behind the edge but robust under use
Mazaki petty - no, too thin
FRKZ k-tip in ZDP - yes, not very thick or heavy but a good grab when I’ve got a laser out and have to do a non-laser thing
Tanaka blue nashiji - no, almost all purpose but the edge will bend if used too heavily
Togashi blue clad - yes, very thick and heavy at the spine but wide bevel is tall enough to be all-purpose thin near the edge
Heiji semi-stainless - unknown! Heavy at the spine and thin at the edge, but I haven’t used it enough to see how it holds up
Masakage Kujira - no, ground more like a French cleaver. Now that I’ve thinned it, maybe yes
Martell regular gyuto - yes, definitely, though it isn’t unusually thick or heavy
Martell laser gyuto - also yes, I don’t know how he does it
Masashi gyuto - yes, the height and the reverse S/lens shaped grind probably is a big factor
Gengetsu gyuto - kind of? Not really sure?

ETA:
Mazaki stainless suji - yes
Misono Dragon suji - no
Murata petty - yes
Masashi VS1 petty - no


----------



## dmonterisi (Jul 30, 2019)

I think an important part of a workhorse is that the knife carries some decent weight or heft behind it. it helps to get through volumes of product with less effort. having a thick spine with a significantly convex grind so that it ends up moderately thin behind the edge which allows it work on a variety of products.


----------



## Carl Kotte (Jul 30, 2019)

So while I agree with many things said about weight, heft and thickness of the spine it seems that these features (taken jointly) may not suffice for being a Gyuto workhorse unless one is also ready to count a heavy old Wüsthof, Sabatier or Dick knife (e.g.) as such. I kind of thought that the latter were meant to be excluded. So in addition to heft/weight/thickness should one add something like ’has a gyuto profile’ (though that criterion may not be very good for other purposes)? I guess that neither kind of steel nor type of handle goes into the defining conditions, but I may be wrong.


----------



## GorillaGrunt (Jul 30, 2019)

Maybe less measurable but more binary: a knife that feels like you’re guiding it while it does the work by means of its weight and grind, as opposed to ones that feel like an extension of the hand and arm (the latter category comprises most lasers). More of a mech-suit than a longer, sharper finger and I’m really reaching here lol


----------



## labor of love (Jul 30, 2019)

@DitmasPork After looking at your Kippington that’s what occurred to me to. I want basically what you got from him but full workhorse version.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 30, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> So while I agree with many things said about weight, heft and thickness of the spine it seems that these features (taken jointly) may not suffice for being a Gyuto workhorse unless one is also ready to count a heavy old Wüsthof, Sabatier or Dick knives (e.g.) as such. I kind of thought that the latter were meant to be excluded. So in addition to heft/weight/thickness should one add something like ’has a gyuto profile’ (though that criterion may not be very good for other purposes)? I guess that neither kind of steel nor type of handle goes into the defining conditions, but I may be wrong.



Wüsthof, Sabatier, Dick, Victorinox knives are definitely workhorse knives, and continue to be for many cooks. J-knives in pro-kitchens in the West remain a minority—most cooks I know are use Wustof and other Western knives. If thrown into the mix—they have a functional profile, robust, tough, etc. 

With J-knives, there's much more variation—hence the issue with definition.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> @DitmasPork After looking at your Kippington that’s what occurred to me to. I want basically what you got from him but full workhorse version.



Man, I wish I had a scale to weigh it. I asked for a slightly heavier workpony. Only scale I have is a postage scale, that's often off by a pound or two.

The asymmetric lefty grind is rad.


----------



## Carl Kotte (Jul 30, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Wüsthof, Sabatier, Dick, Victorinox knives are definitely workhorse knives, and continue to be for many cooks. J-knives in pro-kitchens in the West remain a minority—most cooks I know are use Wustof and other Western knives. If thrown into the mix—they have a functional profile, robust, tough, etc.
> 
> With J-knives, there's much more variation—hence the issue with definition.



Ok, fair enough! If heavy European knives should be grouped together with the other knives, I am fine with that. I still doubt that there is a definition. To say that workhorses are robust, thick and hefty chef knives does seem illustrative enough though.


----------



## labor of love (Jul 30, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Man, I wish I had a scale to weigh it. I asked for a slightly heavier workpony. Only scale I have is a postage scale, that's often off by a pound or two.
> 
> The asymmetric lefty grind is rad.


Kippington is a rockstar now , I’m sure you could sell it to someone that would rather skip the wait list.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 30, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> Ok, fair enough! If heavy european knives should be grouped together with the other knives, I am fine with that. I still doubt that there is a definition. To say that workhorses are robust, thick and hefty chef knives does seem illustrative enough though.



Yeah, I'm not suggesting including European style knives into the mix, since the original question was geared towards Japanese style gyutos (either Japanese or Western made). Seems like the definitions either pertain to weight or all-around usage or toughness.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Kippington is a rockstar now , I’m sure you could sell it to someone that would rather skip the wait list.



How long's the wait these days? Surely not as long as Heiji's four-month queue. When my name came up, think it only took a couple of weeks, give or take, for him to complete the knife.


----------



## bahamaroot (Jul 30, 2019)

An industry made up term. One man's workhorse in another man's lightweight, and vise versa....


----------



## labor of love (Jul 30, 2019)

I don’t what the wait time is. 20 orders ahead of me when I got in line.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 30, 2019)

I talked to him recently and it's around 6 months.

As for the definition of workhorse, we could agree to use the word beater for a knife that can take a lot of abuse, all 'rounder as a blade that can take up a lot of tasks (more versatile), and workhorse for heavy, thick spined blades.

If i had to choose only one gyuto, i'd probably stay with a Takeda as it's not as heavy as a Watanabe or a Kato while its edge can take a bit more abuse, making it more versatile.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 30, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> An industry made up term. One man's workhorse in another man's lightweight, and vise versa....



Yup, "workhorse" is as much an industry name as "gyuto" or "chef's knife" in that it serves the purpose of helping the buyer to get an idea of what they're buying be establishing a general definition.

The mass produced blades are usually good all-arounders, have to be since they're aimed at such a wide user base. Masamoto HC, MacPro, Misono, all very good, compared to the Wustof and Sabs that I used.

I generally know what people mean with "workhorse," just wanted to better articulate it for myself. Some useful observations posted.


----------



## McMan (Jul 30, 2019)

Not all “workhorse” knives have a “workhorse” grind… So, the discussion gets murky due to semantics… Really the discussion is going in two directions—or there are two questions: What defines a workhorse knife vs. what characteristics define a workhorse grind.
For me, the term “workhorse” is more instructive when it refers to a grind type as opposed to just a thick/heavy knife.

*Workhorse knife*
For me, a workhorse knife is, at a minimum, something relatively thick at the spine and heavy (200g +) with good food release. Watanabe and Toyama fit these characteristics, but they are also knives that have high hardness. There’s an argument to be made, too, thatlower hardness benefits a workhorse by adding toughness/durability. I’m thinking Matsubara here. 

*Workhorse grind*
Kato, Kippington, the new Marko, some of the thick newer Maz, all tackle share similar grind characteristics: thick spine, convex (usually higher up the blade face), not overly thin behind the edge—simplest terms a triangle not a rectangle. I have a workhorse from a newer maker, Tribe, that does this style of grind well. Here’re some choil shots (poached from others’ posts—not all my knives, I wish!)


----------



## gman (Jul 30, 2019)

Another way to look at it is to ask yourself what you would reach for given different quantities of product, and different time constraints.

If the task at hand is to dice 100 lbs of carrots before service in a busy restaurant, then whatever knife you reach for instinctively is a workhorse, ipso facto. Now if you were to ask people to talk about why they chose the knife they did for that task, I'd guess that comfort would be the most important factor, and the fact that many people associate good food release and more weight with workhorses suggests that both those qualities are important during extended use. A lightweight knife actually takes more effort to control than a heavy one, because it doesn't have the inertia to resist changes in direction on its own, and a lightweight knife with food stuck to it is even more tiring to use.

I still love lasers, but probably only because I never have to use them for more than a few minutes at a time.


----------



## labor of love (Jul 30, 2019)

Shigehiro 




McMan said:


> Not all “workhorse” knives have a “workhorse” grind… So, the discussion gets murky due to semantics… Really the discussion is going in two directions—or there are two questions: What defines a workhorse knife vs. what characteristics define a workhorse grind.
> For me, the term “workhorse” is more instructive when it refers to a grind type as opposed to just a thick/heavy knife.
> 
> *Workhorse knife*
> ...


----------



## panda (Jul 30, 2019)

to me a workhorse has to be medium weight thicker spine with taper. as in a little bit of everything, it's gotta be versatile. the really fat and heavy ones are bulldozers and are not comfortable to use all day or even doing finesse work..


----------



## MrHiggins (Jul 31, 2019)

panda said:


> to me a workhorse has to be medium weight thicker spine with taper. as in a little bit of everything, it's gotta be versatile. the really fat and heavy ones are bulldozers and are not comfortable to use all day or even doing finesse work..


I'm throwing my vote in with Panda and adding some of my own criteria. Workhorse must have the following characteristics: 230+ cutting edge; thick spine; high grind that still has good food release; a robust heel and an agile tip; a heat treat and grind that don't produce a fragile edge; not too expensive that you're scared to really use it; and a knife you love and want to grab on default. My best workhorse is my toyama 270, followed by my Shi-Han A2 240 and Kochi Migaki 240, in that order.


----------



## Barmoley (Jul 31, 2019)

MrHiggins said:


> I'm throwing my vote in with Panda and adding some of my own criteria. Workhorse must have the following characteristics: 230+ cutting edge; thick spine; high grind that still has good food release; a robust heel and an agile tip; a heat treat and grind that don't produce a fragile edge; not too expensive that you're scared to really use it; and a knife you love and want to grab on default. My best workhorse is my toyama 270, followed by my Shi-Han A2 240 and Kochi Migaki 240, in that order.View attachment 57877



Beautiful knives. How tall is your kochi, looks pretty tall.


----------



## MrHiggins (Jul 31, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Beautiful knives. How tall is your kochi, looks pretty tall.


Thanks. The Kochi is about 52mm x 240mm. I think it weighs 215gr.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 31, 2019)

panda said:


> to me a workhorse has to be medium weight thicker spine with taper. as in a little bit of everything, it's gotta be versatile. the really fat and heavy ones are bulldozers and are not comfortable to use all day or even doing finesse work..



Boom! A medium weight, and versatility—IMO hallmarks of a "workhorse" knife.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 31, 2019)

*workhorse chef’s knife
noun,
ˈwərk-ˌhȯrs•ˈshefsˈ•nīf*

1. a kitchen cutting instrument consisting of a sharp blade fastened to a handle, that is of medium weight, designed for a wide variety of tasks.
2. a dependable kitchen knife favored by a cook to complete the majority of tasks required.
3. a heavier, versatile kitchen knife not prone to damage.

The usage and meaning of the term "workhorse" regarding chef's knives has evolved significantly over the years.

Though "workhorse" is now commonly associated with a chef's knife that is on the heavier end of the spectrum, it wasn't always the case.

With a quick google search, earliest examples I could find of discussions on the "workhorse chef's knife" were from 2012/13. Back then, commonly recommended "workhorse" chef's knives were:

Tojiro DP
MacPro
Misono UX10
Masamoto HC
Kikuichi TKC
Gesshin Uraku
Gesshin Kagero
Suisuin Inox
...among others.

None of those are generally considered on the heavy side these days, but regarded as "workhorse."

I bought my Kato workhorse in 2013—when the term "workhorse" was beginning to gain traction as a catchphrase for all-purpose, dependable, chef knife. I speculate that the "workhorse" label becoming synonymous with thick-spined, heavier chef's knife is greatly influenced by the popularity of the Kato workhorse sold by Maxim at JNS.

Both Tsourkan's and Kippington's "workhorse" gyutos are heavily influenced by Kato—perhaps the emblematic knife design for the current use of the "workhorse" term.

If asked to recommend a "workhorse" chef's knife to an avid cook with decent knife technique, that's not a knife-nerd, who doesn't hand sharpen, and wants a dependable workhorse in the sub-$200 range, I'm likely to recommend something along the lines of Mac Professional; or if they want to explore J-knives and hand-sharpen, maybe Gesshing Uraku or Kaeru.

If recommending what I feel are quintessential "workhorse" knives that fit the heavier, bigger, knife definition to a knife-nerd, around the $500 or less price-point—I'd recommend Watanabe, Tsourkan WH, Kippington WH, and maybe even Mert's Hunter Valley Blades (which I've not tried, but seem a great buy for $520).


----------



## Customfan (Jul 31, 2019)

McMan said:


> Not all “workhorse” knives have a “workhorse” grind… So, the discussion gets murky due to semantics… Really the discussion is going in two directions—or there are two questions: What defines a workhorse knife vs. what characteristics define a workhorse grind.
> For me, the term “workhorse” is more instructive when it refers to a grind type as opposed to just a thick/heavy knife.
> 
> *Workhorse knife*
> ...



Couldn’t have said it better..... the argument for hardness is interesting...

Workhorse is a definition by convention and is whatever its what users accept the knife to be. Having a “Standard” is always useful IMHO since we have something to compare it to.


----------



## HRC_64 (Jul 31, 2019)

Customfan said:


> Couldn’t have said it better..... the argument for hardness is interesting...



No matter how beefy the spine or heel is if the knife has a super-thin BTE grind or distal-tapered tip (sub 1.0mm) a certain amout of care and self-limitation is implied in its use/owner responsibility. Jon Broida has voiced some views on the hardness issue as well, re: applying "workhorse" labels to knives with hard heat-treatments is possibly asking for trouble if people then think the "workhorse" label means you can use it indiscriminately.


----------



## Barmoley (Jul 31, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> No matter how beefy the spine or heel is if the knife has a super-thin BTE grind or distal-tapered tip (sub 1.0mm) a certain amout of care and self-limitation is implied in its use/owner responsibility. Jon Broida has voiced some views on the hardness issue as well, re: applying "workhorse" labels to knives with hard heat-treatments is possibly asking for trouble if people then think the "workhorse" label means you can use it indiscriminately.



Absolutely agree, this is what I was alluding to when talking about Heiji. Jon mentioned it on a few occasions and I've experienced it myself with a few Heiji SS. The core is hard and the edge and behind the edge is thin, so even though the grind could be described as workhorse due to good food release, the knife should not be treated as a workhorse in a sense of being tough and being able to deal with much abuse.

Workhorse grind is one thing, but workhorse knife is something else.


----------



## ian (Jul 31, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> *workhorse chef’s knife
> noun,
> ˈwərk-ˌhȯrs•ˈshefsˈ•nīf*
> 
> ...



I liked the three definitions in your first post better than these. Here, 1--3 all seem very similar, except that "heavier" is in 3, and their similarity doesn't reflect that there are conflicting definitions in use. Also, the commonly used definition of "a heavier knife with a grind optimized for food release, but that may or may not be thin behind the edge, and may or may not have high HRC" is absent here.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 31, 2019)

ian said:


> I liked the three definitions in your first post better than these. Here, 1--3 all seem very similar, except that "heavier" is in 3, and their similarity doesn't reflect that there are conflicting definitions in use. Also, the commonly used definition of "a heavier knife with a grind optimized for food release, but that may or may not be thin behind the edge, and may or may not have high HRC" is absent here.



Yeah, you're right. Was just getting into dictionary mood this morning over coffee.

If my house was on fire and someone yelled "grab the workhorse gyuto!!!"—I'd probably grab my Watanabe.

The Kato might sadly be left behind to burn.


----------



## Carl Kotte (Jul 31, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> *workhorse chef’s knife
> noun,
> ˈwərk-ˌhȯrs•ˈshefsˈ•nīf*
> 
> ...



Looks good to me. 
But here are some pedantic comments and questions. Take them for what they are: if you want to be very meticulous in defining ’’workhorse chef’s knife’ you should consider them. If not, just ignore! At any rate here are the comments;
Are 1, 2 & 3 independent conditions that separately define ’workhorse chef’s knife’? If so, the defined word has three separate meanings and is (thereby) ambiguous. (I’m not sure the word is ambiguous although it is vague). Or do the conditions 1,2 & 3 jointly define the word? 
Even if the latter there is one further thing to consider: on these conditions a small cleaver (as well as a chinese cleaver) or a heavy nakiri would (or at least could) count as a ’workhorse chef’s knife’. That seems unwanted. One way to avoid this is simply to write ’chef’s knife’ into one of the defining conditions (say 1).


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 31, 2019)

Interestingly, on the KKF thread called "Need workhorse gyuto 240mm"—first to come up with my search on KKF—knives recommended were:

Itinomon SS clad
Yoshikane SKD
Suisin INOX Honyaki
Devin Thomas AEB-L ITK
Fowler
Gesshin Kagero
Kochi Ku SS clad carbon 
Gesshin Heji semi-stainless
Rader
Hiromoto
Gengetsu
Kato
Rodrigue
Gesshin Gonbei 

All over the map on that thread.


----------



## panda (Jul 31, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> *workhorse chef’s knife
> noun,
> ˈwərk-ˌhȯrs•ˈshefsˈ•nīf*
> 
> ...


If they're not going to bother sharpening I wouldnt recommend anything besides victorinox..

I don't consider Kato a workhorse, it's too heavy and chippy.


----------



## DitmasPork (Jul 31, 2019)

panda said:


> If they're not going to bother sharpening I wouldnt recommend anything besides victorinox..
> 
> I don't consider Kato a workhorse, it's too heavy and chippy.



Just curious, but what's your "workhorse"? 

First knives I ever used, and grew up with were Mac Original knives, still used at my parent's kitchen. People in Hawaii dig them, dependable, cheap, easy to find.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jul 31, 2019)

McMan said:


> Not all “workhorse” knives have a “workhorse” grind… So, the discussion gets murky due to semantics… Really the discussion is going in two directions—or there are two questions: What defines a workhorse knife vs. what characteristics define a workhorse grind.
> For me, the term “workhorse” is more instructive when it refers to a grind type as opposed to just a thick/heavy knife.
> 
> *Workhorse knife*
> ...



Love those choil shots. It is such a general term it is all over the map. Think at least 240mm thicker spine not super thin behind the edge. Victorinox 10" most used here. However more cooks are using Japanese knives than before. As Head Gargemanger the knives I used the most were lasers. Damp Towel on board cutting sushi rolls. Decorative tip work, even dicing tomatoes, slicing lemons etc. prefer a laser. So in a way as you first mentioned knife you use the most can be considered a workhorse. For peeling pineapples not too tall, very assem. grind thicker spine works best. Diff. knives for diff. jobs.


----------



## Boynutman (Jul 31, 2019)

Is Workhorse a term invented by the kkf community, or did a maker/seller first coin it?
Would be interesting to go back to the source, see what he/she thought of at that time. Just out of curiosity.


----------



## ian (Jul 31, 2019)

Workhorse was not invented. It was discovered.


----------



## Carl Kotte (Aug 1, 2019)

ian said:


> Workhorse was not invented. It was discovered.



[emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]


----------



## panda (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Just curious, but what's your "workhorse"?
> 
> First knives I ever used, and grew up with were Mac Original knives, still used at my parent's kitchen. People in Hawaii dig them, dependable, cheap, easy to find.


My Mario


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

Boynutman said:


> Is Workhorse a term invented by the kkf community, or did a maker/seller first coin it?
> Would be interesting to go back to the source, see what he/she thought of at that time. Just out of curiosity.





Boynutman said:


> Is Workhorse a term invented by the kkf community, or did a maker/seller first coin it?
> Would be interesting to go back to the source, see what he/she thought of at that time. Just out of curiosity.


Think you’re giving way too much credit to KKF.


----------



## HRC_64 (Aug 1, 2019)

"Workhorse" was "invented" (or re-invented in the public imagination) by Maxim from JNS. It was essentially done as a marketing hook ("catch-phrase") for a special edition of Kato knives. 



> The knives that JNS sells, as always, are not stock knives, they have been modified to our exacting design specifications to enhance performance on a variety of tasks. The knives we will carry are thinner than the prototypes, but still have the original and very unique grind, as well as the incredible steel, which feels like honyaki, but sharpens much easier. The final change was to add our own kanji to back side that translates "WORKHORSE"



"Kato - THE workhorse (TM)" was the name for his special/limited edition Kato. These knives were JNS exclusives and heavily promoted upon relsease across KKF. This was also the origin of the distinction of "workhorse grind" vs "standard" grind.



> Product Description
> Yoshiaki Fujiwara - “The Workhorse”



You can read more about it here> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/jns-kato-workhorse.18799/
EG Matus


Matus said:


> It seems that this thread would be a good place to ask the following question - are _all_ Kato gyuto knives available via JNS designed as 'workhorse'? My concern is the weight as 270g is definitely more that I would like a 240mm gyuto to weight


Maxim's reply


maxim said:


> I did try all designs before we went for workhorse.
> All the good stuff about Kato is lost if you make it thiner and lighter
> He can do or do make them thinner and lighter. But i just dont like them that way thats why i will not have them


----------



## Luftmensch (Aug 1, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Workhorse grind is one thing, but workhorse knife is something else.



Subtle point... but worth emphasising...



DitmasPork said:


> Curious on how others here define a "workhorse gyuto"?



The problem is... the term is used on this forum in two ways. One is the conventional usage of the word 'workhorse' - something like a hard-wearing, dependable tool that is designed for extended work. The other usage is referring to specific qualities of a knife (like grind) or even more simply... marketing.

Most native english speakers would be familiar with the conventional usage of the word. Unless they are a knife nut, they will apply this conventional understanding to knives (laced with all their experience and personal preference). If they _are_ a knife nut - the tiny population of people who graze on these pastures - they may use the term workhorse in a knife specific way (second usage).

You cant standardise a preference - approximated by the first usage of the word*. But you can standardise (define) things that can be quantified (profile/grind). And I suspect this is how the term evolved from a collective preference or idea into something that is now close to a marketing term. 


* Preference is a strong function of culture. When using 'workhorse' in the the general sense, that will mean different things to different people. Chinese cleavers are not a gyuto or chef knife profile... but in the right hands they are 'workhorses'


----------



## Luftmensch (Aug 1, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> And I suspect this is how the term evolved from a collective preference or idea into something that is now close to a marketing term.



Hehe... few minutes too late. @HRC_64 is probably more authoritative than my conjecture:



HRC_64 said:


> "Workhorse" was "invented" (or re-invented in the public imagination) by Maxim (KKF sponsor) as a marketing hook (catch-phrase) for a special edition of Kato knives. "Kato - THE workhorse (TM)" was the name for his special/limited edition Kato. These knives were JNS exclusives and heavily promoted upon relsease across KKF. This was also the origin of the distinction of "workhorse grind" vs "standard" grind.



... I'd believe it!


----------



## Carl Kotte (Aug 1, 2019)

Your thoughts are interesting, but please help me understand this quoted part! What do you want to say? I don’t get it!


Luftmensch said:


> Subtle point... but worth emphasising...
> 
> You cant standardise a preference - approximated by the first usage of the word*. But you can standardise (define) things that can be quantified (profile/grind).


Thanks!


----------



## daveb (Aug 1, 2019)

To me, and perhaps only to me, the workhorse is a gyuto that I can pull out in the morning, use it all day on any manner of task, and put it away in the evening. Close to if not the same as Panda's definition. I do not want to and will not pull out more than 1 gyuto for the day - at home I can play with all the knives I want to - but at work it's one gyuto, 1 bread, 1 suji and some tools on my tray.

Tasks may include slicing bananas, a lot of them, julienne onions, peppers, carrots, dicing onion, tomato, slicing mushrooms, mincing shallots, quartering potatoes, and a host of others. One knife.



ian said:


> (the most recent batch of Gengetsus are not workhorses IMO.)



Used both old and new, prefer old, like both.

My favorites are Gengetsu, followed in no particular order, Kono HD, Devin, Marko, Suisin IH Ktip, Gesshin Ginga, Tanaka is on the list bet at third place. Love my Wats at home but they don't make the work cut - too heavy for all day, too much wipe and dry, wipe and dry. Just used a Wauku (sp?) that won't make the cut - too much belly, Yoshikane will make the list again - if I can replace the one I lost.


----------



## parbaked (Aug 1, 2019)

daveb said:


> To me, and perhaps only to me, the workhorse is a gyuto that I can pull out in the morning, use it all day on any manner of task, and put it away in the evening.



I would agree, but I don't care about fat Katos...
My workhorse is a frog:


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> "Workhorse" was "invented" (or re-invented in the public imagination) by Maxim from JNS. It was essentially done as a marketing hook ("catch-phrase") for a special edition of Kato knives.
> 
> "Kato - THE workhorse (TM)" was the name for his special/limited edition Kato. These knives were JNS exclusives and heavily promoted upon relsease across KKF. This was also the origin of the distinction of "workhorse grind" vs "standard" grind.
> 
> You can read more about it here> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/jns-kato-workhorse.18799/



You're sadly incorrect on this, and giving undue credit to Maxim with "inventing" or "re-inventing" the term "workhorse" within the context of chef's knives and gyutos.

"Workhorse" has been around for a very long time, if you spend time outside of the limited vantage point on KKF you'll find older reference to "workhorse" chef's knives and gyutos.

This 2003 thread discussing Japanese knives on eGullet, mentioning "workhorse" knives is just one example.
https://forums.egullet.org/topic/32371-buying-japanese-knives-in-japan/page/3/


----------



## ian (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> You're sadly incorrect on this, and giving undue credit to Maxim with "inventing" or "re-inventing" the term "workhorse" within the context of chef's knives and gyutos.
> 
> "Workhorse" has been around for a very long time, if you spend time outside of the limited vantage point on KKF you'll find older reference to "workhorse" chef's knives and gyutos.
> 
> ...



That thread at least is referring to workhorses as "most used knives". It's still possible that the "heavy knife with good release" definition is more recent. I don't know if it's due to Maxim or whatever, though.

(Also, just to be clear, when I said gengetsu wasn't a workhorse, I was using the latter definition. I'd certainly be happy using it for everything.)


----------



## McMan (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> You're sadly incorrect on this, and giving undue credit to Maxim with "inventing" or "re-inventing" the term "workhorse" within the context of chef's knives and gyutos.
> 
> "Workhorse" has been around for a very long time, if you spend time outside of the limited vantage point on KKF you'll find older reference to "workhorse" chef's knives and gyutos.
> 
> ...



I wouldn’t go quite so far to say that he is “sadly incorrect”. Sure, the term “workhorse” has been around for a while to refer to knives that get use and take use well (and in reference to other things than knives too). It’s just slang.

Maxim was instrumental in connecting the slang term to a very particular brand of knife—Kato—because of its grind.


----------



## Carl Kotte (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> This 2003 thread discussing Japanese knives on eGullet, mentioning "workhorse" knives is just one example.
> https://forums.egullet.org/topic/32371-buying-japanese-knives-in-japan/page/3/



But isn’t the fact that people have used ’workhorse’ to characterise a lot of different knives a bit unsurpricing given the fact the term can be and is used for a lot other things as well? See e.g. https://www.google.se/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/workhorse
The fact that the term in part has come to be associated with a particular prototype, say ’Kato’ (and similar items though boardersare fuzzy) - and is so used in a narrower way - is perhaps noteworthy, but it doesn’t imply that there has been a change in definition.


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

ian said:


> That thread at least is referring to workhorses as "most used knives". It's still possible that the "heavy knife with good release" definition is more recent. I don't know if it's due to Maxim or whatever, though.
> 
> (Also, just to be clear, when I said gengetsu wasn't a workhorse, I was using the latter definition. I'd certainly be happy using it for everything.)



One of the reasons I started this post is my personal fascination with language, how it evolves and definitions altered with time and usage. I've enjoyed reading the varied perspectives including your own.

Personally, I've used the term "workhorse gyuto" in conversations long before I discovered KKF, or found out about JNS. With much respect to Maxim—whom I landed my coveted Kato WH from—he's marketing the "workhorse" term to a very focused niche market of English speaking, handmade Japanese knife enthusiasts, many of which can be labeled "knife-nerds" (KKF, etc). The term "workhorse" has since taken some traction within his niche market. 

Because of the familiarity many of his niche market has with Kato (at least what they look like, or read about), the term "workhorse" has served as a useful adjective that now commonly refers to a thicker gyuto, etc.

A lot of cooks, even users of Japanese knives have never even heard of Kato. A store specializing in Japanese knives I visited was unaware of that knife maker. Outside of KKF, the term "workhorse" probably doesn't convey the same meaning as it does within.

In the not so distant past, Gengetsu was often mentioned as a great workhorse gyuto. Still a great gyuto.


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> But isn’t the fact that people have used ’workhorse’ to characterise a lot of different knives a bit unsurpricing given the fact the term can be and is used for a lot other things as well? See e.g. https://www.google.se/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/workhorse
> The fact that the term in part has come to be associated with a particular prototype, say ’Kato’ (and similar items though boardersare fuzzy) - and is so used in a narrower way - is perhaps noteworthy, but it doesn’t imply that there has been a change in definition.



I don't disagree that the "workhorse" term is associated with a Kato-like gyuto (in thickness, or whatever), but it's pretty much used in that way only on KKF, CKTG Forum, and from people marketing similar knives from what I've observed. Outside of J-knife enthusiasts/knife-nerdism, the meaning seems to refer more to a mid-weight, versatile gyuto as Panda mentioned earlier.


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> The fact that the term in part has come to be associated with a particular prototype, say ’Kato’ (and similar items though boardersare fuzzy) - and is so used in a narrower way - is perhaps noteworthy, but it doesn’t imply that there has been a change in definition.



BTW, yes IMO the close association of "workhorse" with knives that have an attribute similar to Kato is a reflection of Maxim's effective marketing strategy, along with Katos being very special knives. Mystique, rarity, steel quality, distinctive grind, hype, cost, performance, whatever. Labels are also immensely useful. "Hey I'm looking for something like a Kunz spoon"—cookware nerds will likely know what you're talking about.


----------



## HRC_64 (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> You're sadly incorrect on this, and giving undue credit to Maxim with "inventing" or "re-inventing" the term "workhorse" within the context of chef's knives and gyutos.
> 
> "Workhorse" has been around for a very long time, if you spend time outside of the limited vantage point on KKF you'll find older reference to "workhorse" chef's knives and gyutos.
> 
> ...



I put "invented" in quotation marks as a sign of something that is not "literally true"...

Just FYI 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_marks_in_English#Irony
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_marks_in_English#Signalling_unusual_usage


----------



## thebradleycrew (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I don't have Toyama, but got two Watanabes (same maker as Toyama, is the word on the street)—the steel and grind are pretty awesome. So, beyond your one word—how do you define a "workhorse gyuto"?


I believe that Toyama training Shinichi Watananbe, and thus the similarities to the blades. Different makers, similar training and stylistic views. Someone correct me if I am wrong!


----------



## ian (Aug 1, 2019)

thebradleycrew said:


> I believe that Toyama training Shinichi Watananbe, and thus the similarities to the blades. Different makers, similar training and stylistic views. Someone correct me if I am wrong!



Best to leave this one alone. We refer the reader to

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/tf-or-watanabe.38102/

mostly to illustrate how contentious these issues can be, and make no further comment, except to say “who cares?”.


----------



## GorillaGrunt (Aug 1, 2019)

I’d also add these two examples:
Masahiro komagiri - no; this is not an all purpose knife but rather a special purpose knife by virtue of being heavy, a 90/10 or so grind, and not very thin towards the edge
Mac Pro - yes; the weight of the knife doesn’t do as much work as some of the heavier ones but you can really wale on it and be AOK.


----------



## Luftmensch (Aug 2, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> Your thoughts are interesting, but please help me understand this quoted part! What do you want to say? I don’t get it!
> Thanks!



No problem!

I mean that everybody will have their own personal definition of 'workhorse' in the conventional sense of the word. This will be based on culture and experience. There is no right answer to this - it is personal _preference_. It depends on where you grew up... your diet... what tools you were taught to use... what you find comfortable... what you define as 'work'. Trying to define a 'workhorse' knife is erring on the side of asking "what is the best colour?" (ok... thats a bit dramatic! I am sure knife choice would have more consensus!).

All that said, there is a convergence in the zeitgeist about what properties make a knife a 'workhorse' (in the abstract sense). Those with a keen eye on the community can then appropriate the 'essence' of that term to refer to a specific profile/grind (e.g. thick spine, mid-to-heavier weight, bit of meat behind the edge). This design template is likely to meet a lot of peoples' criteria for 'workhorse' (especially if you tell them it is)... and so the 'workhorse profile/grind' is borne. Whether or not it _is_ a 'workhorse' to _you_, depends on what you intend to use it for.


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 3, 2019)

Just came across this workhorse for the first time. Anyone ever use a TX workhorse?
https://www.txknives.com/sold/240mm-stainless-workhorse-gyuto


----------



## HRC_64 (Aug 3, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> ...[E]verybody will have their own personal definition of 'workhorse' in the conventional sense of the word. This will be based on culture and experience. There is no right answer to this - it is personal _preference_. It depends on where you grew up... your diet... what tools you were taught to use... what you find comfortable... what you define as 'work'. Trying to define a 'workhorse' knife is erring on the side of asking "what is the best colour?" (ok... thats a bit dramatic! I am sure knife choice would have more consensus!).



This AFAIK this was the original (old-school) definition of 'workhorse', it was more of a "role" than a specific type of knife...


----------



## MarkC (Aug 3, 2019)

What is the consensus on type of finish or cladding. Should a workhorse be easy to clean and maintain?


----------



## labor of love (Aug 3, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Just came across this workhorse for the first time. Anyone ever use a TX workhorse?
> https://www.txknives.com/sold/240mm-stainless-workhorse-gyuto


Looks good. Next time I’m in the mood for a western that’s likely who I’ll talk to.


----------



## Barmoley (Aug 3, 2019)

I haven't tried his workhorse, but I had two of Steffen's knives, still have one. One was blue 2 honyaki with excellent profile and heat treat. The other that I still have is stainless clad blue super. Both are excellent. Both had western handles, the one I kept is the one with the smaller version of his western handle. I prefer the smaller size. If honyaki had a smaller handle I would keep that one, as I really liked the edge profile and how it felt on the stones. Both knives are excellent, so I wouldn't hesitate to order from him. I also communicated with him about his leather Saya and he seems to be a very good guy.


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 4, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I haven't tried his workhorse, but I had two of Steffen's knives, still have one. One was blue 2 honyaki with excellent profile and heat treat. The other that I still have is stainless clad blue super. Both are excellent. Both had western handles, the one I kept is the one with the smaller version of his western handle. I prefer the smaller size. If honyaki had a smaller handle I would keep that one, as I really liked the edge profile and how it felt on the stones. Both knives are excellent, so I wouldn't hesitate to order from him. I also communicated with him about his leather Saya and he seems to be a very good guy.



Cheers, good to know.

As of late, I've been particularly interested in workhorses by western makers—already acquired a Kip workpony and Marko workhorse.

Another that has gotten my attention are Mert's Hunter Valley Blades knives:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bz0QjBLnQCH/
They're on the big size, he told me the 240s have a height around 57–61mm. Reasonably priced IMO.


----------



## Barmoley (Aug 4, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Cheers, good to know.
> 
> As of late, I've been particularly interested in workhorses by western makers—already acquired a Kip workpony and Marko workhorse.
> 
> ...


I have one of the hunter valley blades from the first run, 52100 at 64 HRC. I like it very much. My only gripe with it was the size of the original handle, for me it was too big. I like smaller handles though and blade forward balance so it's personal preference. Jon from JKI rehandled it for me with his octagonal burnt chestnut handle and it is now one of my favorite knives. It feels very solid, the profile and geometry work well and it balances forward the way I like. Mert is another great maker to deal with and he makes excellent knives. I know I say this a lot, but at this point in time we are fortunate to have access to many excellent makers from around the world.


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 4, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I have one of the hunter valley blades from the first run, 52100 at 64 HRC. I like it very much. My only gripe with it was the size of the original handle, for me it was too big. I like smaller handles though and blade forward balance so it's personal preference. Jon from JKI rehandled it for me with his octagonal burnt chestnut handle and it is now one of my favorite knives. It feels very solid, the profile and geometry work well and it balances forward the way I like. Mert is another great maker to deal with and he makes excellent knives. I know I say this a lot, but at this point in time we are fortunate to have access to many excellent makers from around the world.



What's the approximate thickness of your Hunter Valley?


----------



## Barmoley (Aug 4, 2019)

At the spine? I can post measurements of mine later today.


----------



## Barmoley (Aug 4, 2019)

My HVB is

233x54.6 221g Mert tweaked the heel height for me a little, making it a little shorter. He is a really cool guy.
Thickness of spine at the heel is 4.2mm spine doesn't taper much toward the tip until last third of the blade. Tip is nice and thin though.


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 4, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> My HVB is
> 
> 233x54.6 221g Mert tweaked the heel height for me a little, making it a little shorter. He is a really cool guy.
> Thickness of spine at the heel is 4.2mm spine doesn't taper much toward the tip until last third of the blade. Tip is nice and thin though.
> ...



Dude, that's a very good looking knife!


----------



## Luftmensch (Aug 5, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> This AFAIK this was the original (old-school) definition of 'workhorse', it was more of a "role" than a specific type of knife...



... and I suspect the sort of definition that someone outside the 'bubble' would offer?


----------



## KO88 (Aug 7, 2019)

From the point of view of the newbie to J-knives.
WH is the knife I use the most in the profetional kitchen- that logicaly means some things to me:
1. It should be for reasonable price (higher probability of fatal damage and I'm not sure about average salary of the chefs in the world...)
2. You want to use it on most tasks - naturaly - excelent cutter, "comfortable" to use for long time
And since you are using it a lot:
3. hefty/robust, long lasting - that you can throw almost anything at it and it wont chip or anything
4. easy to sharpen
From the knife maker point of view:
5. easy to make, he will need to make many if he likes to eat  so great steel, top HT - those are things you can do in higher volume but not that great F&F (no mirror stuff etc.)

So all those Katos etc now are more "WorkArabianHorse" for me then Workhorses- maybe Mazaki - it sounds like it has the most WH atributes to me but I've not try one so hard to say


----------



## DitmasPork (Oct 5, 2020)

All the recent hype and chatter about Konosuke's 'Kaiju' has gotten me to revisit and consider the definition of 'workhorse gyuto.' Yes, to an extent its subjective and simply semantics. To simplify, 'workhorse' has come to mean a mid to heavy gyuto designed for regular kitchen use; I've read some that specify a weight requirement to be considered a 'workhorse'; or even describing a 'workhorse' type of grind. For me, the term of 'workhorse' has two rather different and useful meanings—one describing the knife's physicality, as a heavyish gyuto, beefy, robust—the other to reference the versatility of usage, able to handle almost anything in its path, from fine julienne of scallions to dense roots. For instance,

I've a few great lighter gyutos, which do struggle with dense roots, and lacks the weight I prefer for big piles of collards.

So, knives I think immediately think of when hearing the term 'workhorse,' are mid to heavy weight knives that have the versatility to do pretty much any type of kitchen prep. TF Denka is not a knife that is usually talked about as a workhorse, but it does enter into my definition because of its robustness and versatility.

Other knives I consider to fit the 'workhorse' definition are Hunter Valley Blades and Mazaki (at least the tank-like, bullnose Maz I have). 

'Workhorses,' left to right: TF Denka; Marko workhorse; Raquin kitchen tractor; Kip workpony; Kato workhorse; Watanabe; Jiro.


----------



## juice (Oct 5, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> at least the tank-like, bullnose Maz I have)


Why no in photo? Maz shy?


----------



## DitmasPork (Oct 5, 2020)

juice said:


> Why no in photo? Maz shy?


It was only after I took the pic and put knives away that I realized that I forgot to include the Maz!


----------



## GorillaGrunt (Oct 5, 2020)

I’d agree on TF, even though his aren‘t as heavy or thick at the spine as some of the others.


----------



## damiano (Oct 6, 2020)

The more I read about this workhorse stuff the more I feel I should get one...  Anyway, would you guys consider the TF Maboroshi a workhorse? I see ditmaspork has the Denka lined up there..


----------



## Twigg (Oct 6, 2020)

I thought that a workhorse was a knife that could be used on the line, day in and day out comfortably, while holding up to the duty cycle. As I read more over time, it seems a workhorse is now a thicker/heavier knife that is no longer necessarily suited to the workload mentioned above due to weight or comfort and may be more suited toward home use or low duty cycles.


----------



## DitmasPork (Oct 6, 2020)

Twigg said:


> I thought that a workhorse was a knife that could be used on the line, day in and day out comfortably, while holding up to the duty cycle. As I read more over time, it seems a workhorse is now a thicker/heavier knife that is no longer necessarily suited to the workload mentioned above due to weight or comfort and may be more suited toward home use or low duty cycles.



IMO, the definition of a 'workhorse' gyuto has evolved over the past bunch of years. In knife nerd circles its come to describe a mid to heavy weight, relatively thick spine chef's knife—often used as a catchy marketing hook to sell knives. Recent KKF chatter set ablaze by Konosuke's 'Kaiju' workhorse offering.

My theory is that the current usage of the 'workhorse' term appears influenced in no small part to the popularity of the Kato workhorse. The design of Tsourkan workhorse is based on Kato workhorse profile and grind.

When I first started collecting J-knives about a decade ago, the term 'workhorse' was primarily reserved for knives that were considered good, robust, all around chef's knives, one to be used often for a multitude of tasks, typical kitchen workhorses were Masamoto KS, Misono UX10, Kikuichi TKC, Masamoto HC—none of them heavy knives, all considered workhorses by some.

'Workhorse,' whether used for describing a heavy weight, robust knife; or a knife capable of versatility and constant use, doesn't really matter at all—it's just a word. Different users will inevitably use it within a context appropriate to them.

Denka is be no means a heavy knife, but for me a great kitchen workhorse.


----------



## daveb (Oct 6, 2020)

My easy definition is a workhorse is a knife that will go all day. A laser can get tiresome working through product and may not be suited for all product. A carbon Wat (and others) can be too heavy to comfortably work with all day. A workhorse is just right - takes on anything, some heft to help go through product, an edge geometry that has decent release. 

But my question relative to this discussion is how long will it be before Shun, Wustie, et al, pick up on the term and include it in their offerings? They've got the double bevel usuba, the rocking santoku (and nakiri), double bevel kiritsuke with more belly than I have, dammy that is etched onto a gum wrapper then affixed to the blade. and other "design innovations" with names that sound cool. Today's knife du jour is the kiritsuke (double bevel rocker) cause everybody has a chef knife and needs something new. When everyone has a kiritsuke the workhorse will be next.


----------



## DitmasPork (Oct 6, 2020)

daveb said:


> My easy definition is a workhorse is a knife that will go all day. A laser can get tiresome working through product and may not be suited for all product. A carbon Wat (and others) can be too heavy to comfortably work with all day. A workhorse is just right - takes on anything, some heft to help go through product, an edge geometry that has decent release.
> 
> But my question relative to this discussion is how long will it be before Shun, Wustie, et al, pick up on the term and include it in their offerings? They've got the double bevel usuba, the rocking santoku (and nakiri), double bevel kiritsuke with more belly than I have, dammy that is etched onto a gum wrapper then affixed to the blade. and other "design innovations" with names that sound cool. Today's knife du jour is the kiritsuke (double bevel rocker) cause everybody has a chef knife and needs something new. When everyone has a kiritsuke the workhorse will be next.



Very good point. Kato WH and Wat carbon clad (267g is mine) are often cited as quintessential 'workhorses,' but yes they are heavy to the extent that I avoid using them if cooking for large supper parties. Mid-weight, robust knives are good marathon tools. What's your fave 'workhorse' by your definition? Gengetsu?


----------



## RockyBasel (Oct 6, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> All the recent hype and chatter about Konosuke's 'Kaiju' has gotten me to revisit and consider the definition of 'workhorse gyuto.' Yes, to an extent its subjective and simply semantics. To simplify, 'workhorse' has come to mean a mid to heavy gyuto designed for regular kitchen use; I've read some that specify a weight requirement to be considered a 'workhorse'; or even describing a 'workhorse' type of grind. For me, the term of 'workhorse' has two rather different and useful meanings—one describing the knife's physicality, as a heavyish gyuto, beefy, robust—the other to reference the versatility of usage, able to handle almost anything in its path, from fine julienne of scallions to dense roots. For instance,
> 
> I've a few great lighter gyutos, which do struggle with dense roots, and lacks the weight I prefer for big piles of collards.
> 
> ...


OMG I am drooling - this is a WH dream collection


----------



## daveb (Oct 6, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> What's your fave 'workhorse' by your definition? Gengetsu?



Gengetsu remains a gold standard for me. Others up there include Tillman Leder, Yoshi Zensho from JNS, Amekiri from K&S, Kashima from Cleancut, Devin ITK (of course), Martell. New pickups include Marko last week and HVB this week. They'll be going to work.


----------



## RockyBasel (Oct 6, 2020)

Is Togashi-Tosa a workhorse? Mine weighs in at 290 gm for the 270 mm Wa Gyuto in Blue

I don’t see it as such, but the thicker spine and weight...


----------

