# Sabatier Carbon - Why?



## Bromo33333 (Apr 10, 2017)

I was surfing around, and also reading some of the traffic around the carbon steel Sabatier knives.

I was wondering for those of you that have used them, why would you choose it? What's the strengths and weaknesses?

I am very curious - my father in law has a Sabatier from way back that he uses a fair bit, and while a good home chef, he's using it because he always has.

So what say you guys? What's great and terrible about them?


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## jonnachang (Apr 10, 2017)

Your Father in law is right. For me it's mostly a nostalgic thing,used them exclusively when I started cooking. Now I have 63-64 rockwell japanese steel, but still reach for my Sabs! Cheers!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 10, 2017)

There is a certain charm to the (currently available new!) versions that come with NOS blades from the 1950s...


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## liren1 (Apr 10, 2017)

I have one of those, a 25 cm carbon K Sabatier, supposedly from the 50s or 60s, with a wooden handle. It gets very sharp (doesn't stay sharp for long though), it's quite light, and it has a very nice distal taper, one of my favourites actually.


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## Benuser (Apr 10, 2017)

That strong distal taper is a consequence of the old forging technique, resulting in a thick heel and a crazy thin tip. The idea of the old French chef's was having all in one blade, and has been adopted by all good makers of that time -- say the years before WW1. Later on they all went their own way. Hard to find good oldies at a reasonable price. As for new French carbons, they have become heavier, with a higher tip, and much less distal taper. 
A modern alternative would be a Robert Herder 1922, with a lower tip than modern French, hardened @60Rc.


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## GorillaGrunt (Apr 10, 2017)

I've heard that the new ones (post-1985) aren't as good as the old ones. I don't have firsthand experience as I only have kind of old (1970s) and pretty old (1950s NOS blade) ones; there's some members here who have really old (>100 years) ones. Anyhow, my 12" NOS is a great knife, one of my favorites. I mostly use it at home, but it will stay sharp through a shift at work, which is as long as I require. Exquisite profile and geometry, and with the distal taper it can be used for many tasks that don't necessarily call for a huge knife. My 6" utility is also a great knife, gets wicked sharp and also has a nice profile for a petty. The 10" chef could benefit from thinning at this point, but I decided not to grind off the natural patina, pits and all. That one will eventually get retired, I think, rather than refurbished.

Short version: yes, nostalgia, and familiarity; I would say these are some of the better knives one can get without having to learn new cutting and maintenance techniques.

Long version: 
I think there is certainly an element of nostalgia -- after all, these are probably what Escoffier and Careme used, as well as Julia Child and Jacques Pepin. The companies are still in business under the same names and trademarks (although it is important to know which is which before buying) and the knives are easily available in North America, whereas, for example, an older Sheffield knife is presumably just as good but I couldn't say which to buy without a fair bit of research, or if any current offerings are on par with the vintage stuff. The knives have a classic, understated elegance and the use and care thereof is familiar to Westerners; a carbon Sab might not hold an edge as long as an R2 gyuto, but it can be brought back to very sharp with the steel rod found in most home and commercial kitchens and sharpened on common oilstones. They feel very comfortable in the hand at any size: the 12" is not at all cumbersome or unwieldy such that I almost think I should have gotten the 14". I don't feel at all nervous using them to cut through chicken bones, hard rinds, partially frozen foods, all the things you shouldn't use a J-knife to do.

In my admittedly limited experience, Japanese knives (and by extension, knives made in the Japanese style in terms of profile, geometry, and steel characteristics) cut more cleanly, more precisely, and more easily. They get sharper and stay sharp longer. I had to learn different cutting motions and methods of sharpening and maintenance, and purchase some water stones, but to get the same results from my French knives I would perhaps have to have much more practice and training.


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## Benuser (Apr 10, 2017)

Missed your post. Just one remark: the carbon Sheffields were amongst the best in the world, and quite a bit harder than almost all French.


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## labor of love (Apr 10, 2017)

I'm not into sab's anymore, but when I was I liked the vintage nogents and other older stuff more than the new stuff.


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## Benuser (Apr 10, 2017)

You can get all these carbons crazy sharp -- irrespective of the angle -- by very simple means. 8k stones, chromium oxide, as you like it. Even very convexed edges can get scary sharp. Escoffier was able to cut his tomatoes.


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## Benuser (Apr 10, 2017)

And the most traditional French profile I've seen so far with other new knives is with Misono Swedish Carbon. They're are so beautifully made. Please be aware of their overly convexed factory edge. But if you're looking for French type blades that will be your last concern. You won't have the French distal taper, though. And no fingerguard.


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## Benuser (Apr 10, 2017)

"I've heard that the new ones (post-1985) aren't as good as the old ones."
That's a story by someone who managed to buy a lot of old ones and will tell you modern steel is worse than old one. Nonsense. He made a fortune of it. New carbon steel is just as good or bad as old one. With really old stuff from France you might notice big differences, due to different provenance. Not for stuff from the 50'ies and later.
With recent ones differences are about profile and grinding, not about the steel.


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## GorillaGrunt (Apr 10, 2017)

Benuser said:


> "I've heard that the new ones (post-1985) aren't as good as the old ones."
> That's a story by someone who managed to buy a lot of old ones and will tell you modern steel is worse than old one. Nonsense. He made a fortune of it. New carbon steel is just as good or bad as old one. With really old stuff from France you might notice big differences, due to different provenance. Not for stuff from the 50'ies and later.



Ah - that is interesting. So the idea that the steel itself is different, something about starting to use recycled steel in the 80s, is marketing hype? I remember thinking that it sounded specious scientifically but have to confess that as I saw it repeated as truth in more and more places I got taken in. Is it true, though, that the old forging process did produce better knives, identifiable by the thinner tips and tapered tangs, or is that also bunk and there's no substantive difference preventing a new carbon Sab from being ground into all the things people love about the old ones?


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## boomchakabowwow (Apr 10, 2017)

i had an old one. sold it here on this forum.

it was damn nice. sharp, light, very maneuverable. i never really got used to that flat profile since i gravitate to bellied knives. i was purging stuff and if i didnt LOVE it i had to go. tough decision.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 10, 2017)

With shirogami knives, stroppable edge retention on known springhammer forged, competently heat treated knives seems to be a (subjective) 5x that of mass-produced ones ... why is such a difference implausible with french carbon of varying vintage and manufacturing method?

Unless somebody can tell me surely that they made decent stainless before cryo treatment was commonplace, i'd certainly stay clear of early stainless sabs though


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## hambone.johnson (Apr 10, 2017)

I have one of the NOS ones, I really like the profile, weight, balance, even Handle. But the edge retention compared to any other modern steel (that most people on this forum would own), is not even close and looses an edge very quickly by comparison. 
As a home knife it's great but I don't take it to work anymore as it can't hold a candle to anything else I own in edge retention. And as much as I would like to not think that's important .... it is .


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 11, 2017)

How long can the edge be kept great with a steel (which I assume is the touchup instrument of the choice for the knife)?


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## hambone.johnson (Apr 11, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> How long can the edge be kept great with a steel (which I assume is the touchup instrument of the choice for the knife)?



In a 5 day work week I didn't find a Freshly sharpened Sab to last through the week without needing honest touch up on the stones. I use a steel at work on all steels regardless of sourcing so I'm not as straight line as some around here but that does give me a level playing field to comment on. 

In comparison to SKD, AEBL, 52100, CCK cleavers, AS, the Sab doesn't keep sharp enough for bulk veg prep. Which is hard because I really do love the profile and nimble feeling of the blade. 

However, the Sab is great for butchering both fish and meat.


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## Dan P. (Apr 11, 2017)

A note on different steels used in Sabatiers; shear steel, probably old stock, whether old stock material or old stock blades I don't know, was being used by European bladesmiths well into the 20th century. Whether it was used consistently and how steel was sourced by the factories or their piece work contractors I also can't say, but a lot of this stuff was pretty lo-tech mom and pop stuff for a long time, well into the 70's or 80's.


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## Dan P. (Apr 11, 2017)

PS- Shear steel being piled carburised iron, sort of a "wrought steel", as opposed to homogenous crucible steel.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 11, 2017)

Knives made in the late 1800's in Germany, France, and the US were often thin profiles that cut well because of their geometry. The hand forged carbon steel was good quality. Early stainless could not compare it was not until the 1950's that standardized superior heat treatments improved stainless knives. 

In the 20th century knives became more lowest common denominator. Thick behind the edge, soft steel that dents instead of chips. Tiger tanks that could take a beating, but suffer in the performance realm. When I started cooking around 1972 the Forschner knives were used most in kitchens. They did not have those heel bolsters and could be sharpened countless times. Edge retention was not great but they got the job done. Got my first carbon Masamoto in 1982 only used Japanese knives after that until I retired.

Now there are some really good stainless steels I do not think they are used in Sabs though & the grinds are not as good as the vintage carbon blades.


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## Benuser (Apr 11, 2017)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Ah - that is interesting. So the idea that the steel itself is different, something about starting to use recycled steel in the 80s, is marketing hype? I remember thinking that it sounded specious scientifically but have to confess that as I saw it repeated as truth in more and more places I got taken in. Is it true, though, that the old forging process did produce better knives, identifiable by the thinner tips and tapered tangs, or is that also bunk and there's no substantive difference preventing a new carbon Sab from being ground into all the things people love about the old ones?



On the new ones, expect a less pronounced distal taper, a higher weight, a higher tip and the balance point less forward. So they have got more "normal", or less exceptional, which is a poor thing IMO.


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## Benuser (Apr 11, 2017)

As for the steel, before WW2, quite unpredictable. A few exceptionally good, some quite mediocre, a lot in between.
A problem with buying online USED vintage carbons is you hardly can see the work that is involved to make it into a well performing knife again. Major issues as overgrinds may remain hidden. When I see the price raise I guess most buyers are collectors and don't actually use them in their kitchen.
In most cases, the work to be done includes restoring profile after oversteeling, correcting the heel, abrading some of the finger guard, restoring geometry - thinning, setting a relief bevel...
It seems to me that you're much better off with the UNUSED vintage carbons from the fifties by Thiers-Issard and k-Sabatier. But their prices have risen considerably as well. 
If you're just looking for performance, the Japanese carbons whose profiles are largely inspired by the French are an excellent alternative. I have the Misono Swedish in mind.


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## Bromo33333 (Apr 16, 2017)

Yeah ... developing some lust for the Misono Swedish carbon.... &#128579;


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## labor of love (Apr 16, 2017)

What is cooler though? The sabatier elephant or the misono dragon?


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## chinacats (Apr 16, 2017)

labor of love said:


> What is cooler though? The sabatier elephant or the misono dragon?



The elephant, by far imo. Great knives and in fact I've yet to see a pretty from Japan I like as much.


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## Butters (Apr 16, 2017)

I've got an NOS K-Sab slicer and a new off the shelf K-Sab boning knife and they're great for certain jobs. I leave them toothy off a 1000 grit stone and use them on proteins with bones, where I wouldn't use my 'good' knifes. The f&f of the sabs is poor and I've checked the RC on both and the NOS slicer was 54RC and the new boner was 53RC. That's pretty sad tbh, though on the plus side it means you'll never chip a blade. 
Unless you like the nostalgic elements the Sabs bring (I do) then you would be much better served by Misono or Masamoto carbons in similar profiles. I have tested a Masamoto at 57RC, and for context most custom makers are shooting for RCs of 58/59 for boners and 60-64 for Chefs.
Anyone who says old steel is better than new probably still believes in forge packing edges. And faeries.

Personally I think the NOS Sabs are great, but I like old stuff that doesn't work that well. I also own steel bicycles with crappy brakes and covet cars of the same.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 16, 2017)

"RC on both and the NOS slicer was 54RC and the new boner was 53RC."

Yes, at least the vendors of these don't pretend they are harder - and it seems french knives are renowned for intentionally soft HT - is there a historic reason, steelability maybe?


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## Butters (Apr 16, 2017)

Historically it was probably all the variable quality carbon steels were capable of. Nowadays I have no idea why they don't at least try to improve things. They seem to be successful despite their quality, not because of it. The best Sabatier brands don't even attempt to compete on quality, perhaps because the generic nature of the name means any work will also promote their competitors. Or maybe they are family businesses that are perfectly happy with their quality, business size and profit levels. 

Carbon and stainless at RC57 are perfectly 'steelable' and would compete with production Japanese and high end German brands. If you add 'Frenchness' and nostalgia into the mix then they could easily be as popular as big consumer brands like Wusthof with some effort and distribution.

Perhaps we can do a group buy and turn a company around..? Mercier et Cie is a nice, French sounding name that could be marketed globally. Perhaps we can start with them - if someone could lend me a few million Euros I'll start making calls.


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## talcum (Apr 16, 2017)

30 years ago, the four star knives were great because it would get very sharp without heroics. The competing german knives were prettier, without all the gray mottling on the blades, but didn't get as sharp as quickly or easily. Until I saw a real japanese knife 15 years ago, it was what you reached for for cutting. Now any modern knife is great by comparison.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 16, 2017)

"Nowadays I have no idea why they don't at least try to improve things."

A NOS is a NOS 

@Butters I think if someone wants a medium-hard traditional euro carbon these days, they'll look no further than Herder


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## Benuser (Apr 16, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "Nowadays I have no idea why they don't at least try to improve things."
> 
> A NOS is a NOS
> 
> @Butters I think if someone wants a medium-hard traditional euro carbon these days, they'll look no further than Herder


+1



Herder 1922, Rc 60.


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## labor of love (Apr 16, 2017)

chinacats said:


> The elephant, by far imo. Great knives and in fact I've yet to see a pretty from Japan I like as much.



A finger guard actually makes sense with a parer or petty as I've nicked my fingers on the edge at the heel many times while using pettys. Still think I'd prefer a misono anyway.


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## Butters (Apr 16, 2017)

Herder are the same as the good Sabs are they not? They harden to a higher RC but essentially they're a brand that was respected back in the day, mainly because at the time there was nothing really exceptional to compete with them. 

Personally I don't think that Sabs or Herder knives were any better back in the day either. I'm sure they were just as shoddy then, it's just that there were no genuinely good alternatives to show them up. The NOS Sabs I've seen have terrible f&f - even worse than the brand new ones, while at 53/54RC they are all made of cheese. 

I love them anyway but their limitations are pretty obvious, which is all I was trying to get across. The only reason they really cut well at all is because they're ground super thin.


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## Eloh (Apr 16, 2017)

The Herder 1922 is a great all around chefs knife. Nothing to complain about really (the Handle F&F is hit or miss though). Sure people have different preferences etc but for what it is it's really the best choice imo.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 16, 2017)

@Butters in Germany, they still have a small mainstream foothold: At least one chain of supermarkets carries their carbon parers (repackaged in a blister carton of their household goods supplier, but no reason to assume it is not genuine).


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2017)

chinacats said:


> The elephant, by far imo. Great knives and in fact I've yet to see a pretty from Japan I like as much.



This Nogent perhaps?


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## Lars (Apr 17, 2017)

Butters said:


> Historically it was probably all the variable quality carbon steels were capable of. Nowadays I have no idea why they don't at least try to improve things. They seem to be successful despite their quality, not because of it. The best Sabatier brands don't even attempt to compete on quality, perhaps because the generic nature of the name means any work will also promote their competitors. Or maybe they are family businesses that are perfectly happy with their quality, business size and profit levels.



What?

http://www.sabatier-shop.com/308-200---8-generations---ebony-wood.html

Lars


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## labor of love (Apr 17, 2017)

Lars said:


> What?
> 
> http://www.sabatier-shop.com/308-200---8-generations---ebony-wood.html
> 
> Lars



Nice! Doesn't appear to have a finger guard either. now...is there a carbon version?


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2017)

No carbon version. As the ebony is untreated and likely to work a bit, you may consider the G10 handle version as well. Here an extensive review by our German counterparts :

https://www.messerforum.net/showthr...-8-Generationen-7-inch&highlight=Sabatier+200


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## Butters (Apr 17, 2017)

Lars said:


> What?
> 
> http://www.sabatier-shop.com/308-200---8-generations---ebony-wood.html
> 
> Lars



I bought my boning knife and vintage slicer from that exact shop. Look at their fabrication section; a dozen people doing what they've always done and getting what they've always got. That tradition is the beauty of it for me, but if you're chasing quality then this ain't it. By all means buy them for the nostalgia, that's why I have 2, but they are not high quality knives. A Victorinox fibrox will keep an edge better. But it won't form a patina or be half as much fun to use. 

If you have a quiver of kitchen knives then you should have some Sabs in there. If you're buying your first carbon and want quality go with Misono or Masamoto or some other brand that actually offers it. That's all I'm saying.


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2017)

As for Butters' remark on Herder vs. NOS Sabatier:
If the NOS are Nogents, the couldn't be more different. The French used a rat-tail construction until the fifties, and these are very light, with a pronounced forward balance point. 
The Herder has a modern full tang with rivets, and the balance point is at the bolster, as with modern French. Expect a much more consistent grinding with the Herder as well. One particularity with all Herder 1922, the Tranchelard excepted: there's a thickening at the very tip to make it less fragile. 
With the NOS the tip is often overly thin and need frequent repair.


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2017)

Butters said:


> I bought my boning knife and vintage slicer from that exact shop. Look at their fabrication section; a dozen people doing what they've always done and getting what they've always got. That tradition is the beauty of it for me, but if you're chasing quality then this ain't it. By all means buy them for the nostalgia, that's why I have 2, but they are not high quality knives. A Victorinox fibrox will keep an edge better. But it won't form a patina or be half as much fun to use.
> 
> If you have a quiver of kitchen knives then you should have some Sabs in there. If you're buying your first carbon and want quality go with Misono or Masamoto or some other brand that actually offers it. That's all I'm saying.



I like your point of view quite a bit. Just be aware these modern French carbons are relatively unexpensive and basically serve a huge, conservative home market. They don't have the marketing and distribution apparatus of a Zwilling or Wüsthof. As for Herder, it has recently searched for a higher price and quality segment, and a wider distribution, but still produces in the old way, just like K-Sabatier. But within Germany it's a rather small player.


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2017)

Comparing Herder 1922 23cm to modern Sab 25cm by Thiers-Issard:


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2017)

So with the modern ones, the distal taper has almost gone.


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2017)

The sloppy grinding hasn't changed, though.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 17, 2017)

Always tempted to finally get one of these modern Thiers sabs, for the sole reason that I find something about the handle outstanding...


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2017)

https://www.sabatierknivesuk.co.uk/45-cooks-knives


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2017)

Sure, the red stamina handle is appealing. But there's some work to be done to make handle and bolster really comfortable. Fit & Finish are indifferent, to put it politely.


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## Gregmega (Apr 20, 2017)

I second Hambone's response. 

I found a 50's (pre?) slicer at a flea market for 3 bucks (!!) in rough shape, and re-profiled it into a a long petty. It served me for years as a great knife for de-boning lamb saddle, silver skin removal, small fish butchery and the like. What's so enjoyable about this old carbon knife is the light flex it has and its responsiveness to quick sharpening (since I switched to J knives I don't carry a steel, but someone always has one). I could generally get a few days of butchery in before needing to hit the steel and a bit over a week before touching the stones. Needless to say after that lucky find, I was all eyes for vintage carbon. Upon trying to retire it I spent easily over a grand on various makers (Japanese) and still found myself longing for the soigne feel of that softer steel. It has its place in my butchery kit still to this day and I have 3 other amazing knives that look really good in my drawer


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## jbart65 (Apr 21, 2017)

A neighbor of mine had an old Sabatier with the Elephant and four stars barely showing. Had to be at least 30-40 years old, perhaps older. Sat in a draw for decades, rusted from tip to heel. 

I removed all the rust, eliminated a recurve and ground down the bolster so the blade could be sharpened in its entirety. Sharpened quite nicely and you could see the resemblance to a future Masamoto KS. Fairly light and nimble and not at all like modern German knives.

Would I buy a new one just like it? Probably not. Still, it was a very interesting encounter with history.


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## Benuser (Apr 21, 2017)

Photos?


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## Dan P. (Apr 21, 2017)

Okay, having used my exceptional techno savvy to attach some of these photos upside down, what we have is the refurbed but unsharpened house beater Sabatier, of unknown marque. The finger guard has been removed. 
It is evident that this was drop forged and then the blade was drawn out under a hammer, which would, in today's terms, make it "hand forged". It has a lot of taper by anybody's standards, and has been beautifully ground, again probably by hand. It's a beautifully proportioned knife, but soft, probably mid-high 50s HRc. 
Far removed from the weighty stainless baseball bats being clunked out by some brands today. 

View attachment 35481
View attachment 35480
View attachment 35482
View attachment 35483


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## jbart65 (Apr 21, 2017)

All my photos are at home, but these links should work.

I couldn't get all the signs of rust out, not unless I wanted to grind down more of the blade. Didn't want to take off too much metal since it wasn't mine.

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/3555/KUcWch.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/2096/kJRFDs.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/3020/VNmyZ5.jpg


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## Benuser (Apr 21, 2017)

Looks great!


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## jbart65 (Apr 21, 2017)

I sanded the damn thing quite a bit. It was fortunate the rust did not leave any pockmarks. Evidently it was a wedding gift from their parents, though I don't think it was given to them new.

I showed my neighbors how to care for it and told them to bring it back in a year for sharpening. Gonna have to check in with them soon.

Now I scour yard sales looking for similar projects. This sharpening thing ...:bigeek:


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## foody518 (Apr 21, 2017)

Dan, that Sabatier looks quite nice!

Jbart nice work! Hopefully they actually use the knife, and maybe you'll see it back for more regular then once a year sharpening


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## jbart65 (Apr 21, 2017)

Baby steps, foody. :spin chair: 

I emailed all my neighbors to offer free sharpening and most did not respond. This couple was one of the few that did. My other neighbors all seem to think their knives are already sharp, instead of being deadly dull as they are.

It's not that they don't trust me, either. I set the menu and do all the cooking for 60 people every year at our street block party. Done it for more than 15 years. They all know I am a foody who takes knives seriously.

My family uses dull knives too, but at least they like to get their knives sharpened when I am around. My sister visited this weekend and brought her three favorite knives with her. Hadn't been sharpened in several years. Trying to cut a carrot required me to push really hard. They are all sharp now, but only after quite a bit of thinning and reprofiling. 

My sis was astonished after using some of my Japanese knives. Now she wants one!


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## foody518 (Apr 21, 2017)

No kidding, people can be weird about that. I've taken to gifting knives that I've sharpened to get people to realize I'm serious about offering to sharpen stuff. Still not at the point to where i would dare give out a nice carbon or decent vintage carbon knife, afraid of what would happen to it...


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