# Serious Project: Maboroshi thinning



## ModRQC (Sep 18, 2020)

Now now, that's some real fun.

First step: getting it ready













Good old sandpaper. I was preoccupied by a couple of obvious high spots on the wide bevel, especially at the tip. Contrary to my expectations, it was a short and sweet job to grind these away with automotive #180. Also most of the original shinogi I realized was pretty spot on despite the appearances: roughly 15mm from the edge, constant. All in all, 15 minutes and it was over with this.

For good measure, I gave a slight chamfer to the spine with #180, a good smoothing on the choil and finger hole with #1000 as well as smoothing the chamfer of the spine, then went with "cleaning" the handle of some of its easy to address faults. Still with #1000, just really cleaning and polishing: the scales, tang, bolster, welding marks. Any way I turn this however you can see in pictures those faults I cannot address - say ill-drilled rivet holes among others like spots on the tang that will require coarser sandpaper to address. #3000 sanding pad was used to polish the whole thing, blade and handle.















Ok now this was as clean as possible for a roughly 30 minutes go. Very easy to help this knife, and yet the result is worth it times 100 - faults are now very hard to catch from any distance but close inspection, and the pinch now feels adequately smooth too. Of course the bevels were left rough - but they were so righteous underneath a few ill-ground spots that with so little work done they would now be fairly easy to polish to mirror. And I hope they'll be just as smooth and easy to follow on the stones.

I decided I would document each step of this with a choil shot and a weighing of the knife. I want to know how much time with coarse sandpaper and stones amounts to about what kind of metal removal and weight loss. Not scientifically, just really be more aware of a progress I didn't verify so much with the Moritaka. Choil shot just helps to assess progress where any, obviously. Securing thing when you don't have much experience - hey, that's me!

Therefore...





*Left: original. Right: actual.*

About nothing happened there, as expected. If I let my imagination go wild, the actual choil is just a tad... crisper overall. The obvious difference in height of the shinogi from one side to the other on both choil shots is not something that pervades on the whole length. The bevel at the heel on the cutting side has a smallish spot of overgrind over the shinogi, making the choil shot deceptive. Sanding the consistent part of the bevel brought that spot a bit more into focus at the choil. I just hope I won't "slide" at that spot because of this when thinning and mess up with the tsuchime finish.






The insight from my poor scale says this blade lost 1g (207g originally from the same scale).

Being poor, at its level of precision, there's enough removed to tilt it down. Probably something around 0.25g in reality, from so little removal actually done. One could logically assert that the high spots I removed at both sides of the tip were a consistent enough amount of steel that I actually removed, still within error margin, about 0.75g - 1.5g. I'm not experienced enough to be able to assess this. I'd like a better scale, for sure.

Follow up soon... for me, right now, jumping on the stones in about 5 minutes.

To be continued...

Ah yes... was forgetting the prep for following on the stones:


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## ian (Sep 18, 2020)

How are you mounting/using your sandpaper?


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## tostadas (Sep 18, 2020)

I enjoy following your projects. The documentation is great, and I learn something from both the successes and mistakes along the way.

I assume this is the 180mm? Do you mind if I ask where the balance point is?


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

ian said:


> How are you mounting/using your sandpaper?



Ahem... if a critical eye you wish to lend on my work, the answer to this would probably suit your impressions; if an appreciative eye, for sure the answer would be quite a deception.

Let me get back to you with a single pic once I can go take it - hence when I'm done replying here.



tostadas said:


> I enjoy following your projects. The documentation is great, and I learn something from both the successes and mistakes along the way.
> 
> I assume this is the 180mm? Do you mind if I ask where the balance point is?



It's the 210mm, real measures 212/53, balance point about 20mm forward the heel.

Thanks for following really appreciated, makes me feel better about all my verbiage that you would say that, if anything you want to add or suggest feel free.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

What is this... well it's a thingy that if standing the other way around would perhaps tell more of its original purpose: a supposedly portable smartphone screen cleaner "system". The hole you see bottom right is a sprayer for the little bottle tucked inside, and the mushy green-grey padding on one side was once vivid turquoise microfiber layer. "Psssh pssh - swik swik". But the swik swik aspect would get clogged with gunk pretty quick and then it became "pssssh psssh - ah f*** that s***"!

Stumbled on it on first Moritaka thinning. Posted about it in the thread I think. Hard plastic backing if I want, softer but firm backing if I want. Mostly the softer backing is used, but the hard is useful - say to remove most of the overgrinds on the Mabs here. Then finish the job and smooth the whole bevel with the soft backing. The demarcation shows (paler) where I wrap a band of sandpaper, pretty much always the same width by eye, the rest is somewhat of the palm rest and is now clogged with swarf. This one unit won't be cleaning any screen anytime soon for sure. 

Not very comfortable but somewhat works way better than anything I had at my disposition or could think of buying for the purpose of freehand sanding - on such a narrow area difficult to approach or clamp with access to the full blade with conventional stuff, especially when a handle is on.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

Second part of this project is now completed. Will be posted tomorrow hopefully. Overall pleasing results with mitigating aspects. Still learning from my own process - and posts too! Here's a preview though:


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2020)

good work!

i can't believe how ****** the fit and finish really is on these knives. not a single fukn thing done right. thats quite impressive on its own.


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## MarcelNL (Sep 19, 2020)

Can it be that TF simply is of the opinion that his customers have their own thoughts about fit and finish and will take care of it (aside from ill fitting pins etc ) or have it done?


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## Badgertooth (Sep 19, 2020)

I’ve had to sand finish a bevel once on a knife where the geometry was such that the KU would get scuffed by the tiniest wobble in technique near the tip. It’s an interesting way to do it. I cut fingerstones from synthetic stones once I’d got up to 1000 on paper then finished with natural stones.


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## ian (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> View attachment 95286
> 
> 
> What is this... well it's a thingy that if standing the other way around would perhaps tell more of its original purpose: a supposedly portable smartphone screen cleaner "system". The hole you see bottom right is a sprayer for the little bottle tucked inside, and the mushy green-grey padding on one side was once vivid turquoise microfiber layer. "Psssh pssh - swik swik". But the swik swik aspect would get clogged with gunk pretty quick and then it became "pssssh psssh - ah f*** that s***"!
> ...



Nice, thanks. I was just curious why you were using sandpaper to even out the grind. That’s something I’d think to do on stones. And if it’s because you wanted to use a coarser grit than your coarsest stone, I’d probably have put the sandpaper sheet down on a flat, hard surface and pretended it was a stone. Interesting to learn about everyone else’s techniques here. Good luck with the rest of the project(s)!


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

ian said:


> Nice, thanks. I was just curious why you were using sandpaper to even out the grind. That’s something I’d think to do on stones. And if it’s because you wanted to use a coarser grit than your coarsest stone, I’d probably have put the sandpaper sheet down on a flat, hard surface and pretended it was a stone. Interesting to learn about everyone else’s techniques here. Good luck with the rest of the project(s)!



It probably has to do with the fact I learned thinning through sanding the Moritaka before taking it to the stones. And if the Mabs didn't have those obvious high spots on the bevels I would probably have went with stones to begin with. I just thought I would "prepare" the bevel beforehand. Truth is that part of what I learned doing the second part was that you are essentially right. Meaning, it helped but didn't really help. More when I can organize some pics and comments. Thanks for your interest, I appreciate your input.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> Can it be that TF simply is of the opinion that his customers have their own thoughts about fit and finish and will take care of it (aside from ill fitting pins etc ) or have it done?



You're just taking this a step to far for what it is. He just doesn't care much for anything but his own work - which admittedly he does very well. I'm guessing that to him, the finish and handle part are undeserving of his attention - just functional parts that work even when done halfway decently. I don't know. Truth is most of us wary about that will get one of his knives will most probably enjoy it very much. So...


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> Can it be that TF simply is of the opinion that his customers have their own thoughts about fit and finish and will take care of it (aside from ill fitting pins etc ) or have it done?



"having it done" on these knives seems to involve: 
grind the whole bevel, both sides.
sand spine smooth.
sand choil cutout smooth.
either weld the undercut bolster or grind it down to 90deg where it meets the scales.
weld the hole on the front of the bolster and grind smooth.
attach new scales with correctly drilled holes.
sand everything smooth with new scales in place.

you can just as well just simply build the knife yourself imo. its gonna take the same amount of time.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

I think at this point, TF could accept that this doesn't work, and ship just the blade to customers, charging like 50$ less. Sales would probably skyrocket among afficionados.


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> You're just taking this a step to far for what it is. He just doesn't care much for anything but his own work - which admittedly he does very well. I'm guessing that to him, the finish and handle part are undeserving of his attention - just functional parts that work even when done halfway decently. I don't know. Truth is most of us wary about that will get one of his knives will most probably enjoy it very much. So...



i just dont think this knife should be as expensive as they are. you can buy a perfectly finished western from jck for around 100$ and if the knife is like 5-10x as expensive at least i would have some demands on the f&f.


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## ian (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> It probably has to do with the fact I learned thinning through sanding the Moritaka before taking it to the stones. And if the Mabs didn't have those obvious high spots on the bevels I would probably have went with stones to begin with. I just thought I would "prepare" the bevel beforehand. Truth is that part of what I learned doing the second part was that you are essentially right. Meaning, it helped but didn't really help. More when I can organize some pics and comments. Thanks for your interest, I appreciate your input.



Yea, I think the issue is that if you want to reduce irregularities in the grind, you want the abrasive surface you’re using to be as flat and hard as possible, and also reasonably long and wide. If there’s any give to the backing, or if the implement you’re using is small (in the extreme, think of a fingerstone), then you’ll end up hitting the low spots in addition to the high spots, so your work won’t be as effective. Sandpaper is useful for making things look good, precisely because it’ll hide low spots and conform to a convex surface, but I wouldn’t use it early in the process. The exception is if you’re laying the sandpaper flat on some rigid, hard surface like one of those Kasfly holders, in which case it can be used as a cheaper alternative to a coarse stone. Early in the project, you don’t need the knife to look pretty.


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> I think at this point, TF could accept that this doesn't work, and ship just the blade to customers, charging like 50$ less. Sales would probably skyrocket among afficionados.



maybe.


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2020)

you can also simply wrap sandpaper around a flat stone, put in the stone holder, and just grind away. this is best done dry. 180 is a good starting point. 80 and 120 might wear out too fast and/or create too deep scratches.


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## ian (Sep 19, 2020)

Also, maybe it’s worth noting that low spots (in general, any sort of curvature in the blade face) can actually improve food release, so if they’re not bad enough to cause a hole in the edge or something after some amount of sharpening, they can be viewed as beneficial. We hate them here because we’re all obsessed with our knives looking perfect with a beautiful kasumi finish right off the stones. But that may not be TF’s priority.

Now, I’ve seen a few TFs on here with actually problematic or just sh*tty grinds. I’m just saying that a knife that just has some low spots shouldn’t necessarily indicate that the maker doesn’t care about the grind.


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## MarcelNL (Sep 19, 2020)

O I hear what y ou are saying, I was using a eufemistic way of saying that he likely does not care enough to do it but part of that is because he knows his clientele will care about it and still will buy his work. I'm sure, guess I will fing out, that when in communication about buying a knife TF is receptive of customer requests to a point.

BTW: I did round the choil and spine of my cheap knife, it was a first, I could have taken it to finer grits but it took me like 15 minutes. I don't care about the bolster as I don't want the western handle.

Similar to buying a new car, you get the tires the brand puts on it- probably not the tire you like best, would you not buy it because you like the Michelin Pilot Sport 4s so much (if you could not negiogiate a deal) or would you get them fitted anyway?


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

ian said:


> Yea, I think the issue is that if you want to reduce irregularities in the grind, you want the abrasive surface you’re using to be as flat and hard as possible, and also reasonably long and wide. If there’s any give to the backing, or if the implement you’re using is small (in the extreme, think of a fingerstone), then you’ll end up hitting the low spots in addition to the high spots, so your work won’t be as effective. Sandpaper is useful for making things look good, precisely because it’ll hide low spots and conform to a convex surface, but I wouldn’t use it early in the process. The exception is if you’re laying the sandpaper flat on some rigid, hard surface like one of those Kasfly holders, in which case it can be used as a cheaper alternative to a coarse stone. Early in the project, you don’t need the knife to look pretty.



I understand the point very well. Thing is I was afraid that upon grinding them high spots on the stone they would have me slip and mess up with the tsuchime. Most high spots were simply leftover parts of the tuschime finish on the main bevel. Turns out, it probably wouldn't have been that hard to avoid that.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

While I have some of you good people around, two questions:

Could I expect the NP400 to be about as fast as SP320?

And more importantly in the immediate of things, can someone show me what the Suehiro Rika leaves for finish on a wide bevel? 

I only ever used it to refine an edge.

Thanks!!


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## ian (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Could I expect the NP400 to be about as fast as SP320?



Probably slower. People say it behaves like a higher grit stone... I don’t necessarily agree, but I haven’t used it enough to tell yet. Def doesn’t feel like a 300 grit stone in terms of speed tho.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

Say I want a stone that moves metal about as fast - not necessarily faster - and that doesn't dish much like the SP320... I buy another SP320?


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Could I expect the NP400 to be about as fast as SP320?


No way. I don't have the SP320 but the SG320HR, and the NP400. The NP is a fantastic stone, but not for fast, heavy thinning. Even with simple carbons I reach for the SG for serious thinning or reprofiling.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

Yeah those HR glass stones are hard to come by in Canada. NP400 is really tempting, but how much slower is it than SP320? I don't think I want a stone super fast, could get by well with slower than SP320, but if it's gonna be double the amount of work/time it's not what I am looking for neither.



Benuser said:


> No way. I don't have the SP320 but the SG320HR, and the NP400. The NP is a fantastic stone, but not for fast, heavy thinning. Even with simple carbons I reach for the SG for serious thinning or reprofiling.


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2020)

Much, much slower and requiring brute force for thinning. Is not impossible but far from tempting. Why not just the SP220 instead?


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2020)

the pro220 is very fast.

which brands of stones can you get in canada?


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

Ok then...

Second step: thinning on SP320

I was patient enough to stop at the first three passes and take pictures. Not really sure why though, but I guess for people that haven't thin anything yet it may help to see the progression of the few first passes: to help distinguish what's a matter of a technique problem, what's a matter of a normal low/high spot, and insight on how to address such (or NOT to address such if my ways seem to fail  ). Anyways, I have 10 pics I can use so I had to fill the quota somehow. The more the pics the less I seem to speak for no good reason. 

First pass:








On this side I had the most major high spot that I first went to sand off. As indicated discussing with @ian the sanding didn't do nothing to prevent what would have happened anyhow: the first pass clearly shows a remnant of a high spot at the tip near the spine, and the obvious lower spot it generates a bit further up the path. This is truly nothing - should clear within 1-2 passes more.








On the left side, some consistent high spots that sanding had simply not address at all, creating a low spot just a tad smaller than the State of California... For those who find this matter for high/low spots confusing to identify, obviously the low spot isn't difficult to observe, but for the high spots that actually create the low spot problem, you have to look at the very heel at the darker grey spot than the rest of the bevel, and same thing about mid blade, a huge darker grey spot. These two encompass the low spot, and the low spot won't get abraded as long as those two will maintain it above the stone. This will not clear so easily. To maximize the effect of each pass on this one would ideally insist a bit with putting pressure exactly at both high spots (from the other side of the blade obviously) with two fingers, rather than insisting on each high spot independently. Reason is a better uniformity of the whole high-low-high area.

Well, I think it's ideal. I simply go with a first few passes before I try to insist on anything though.

Second pass:









On the right side, the low spot nearing the tip is already all but gone; the high spot at the spine of the tip hasn't changed one bit. I thought it was time that I would insist just a tad on this one next pass, since what little remnant of the low spot was sure to be removed with the next pass too.

On the left side, some coverage is starting to happen, but very slowly. This one I waited to see the result of the third pass before deciding on anything.

Third pass:









Right side was simple enough: I settled the matter of the remaining high spot at the spine of the tip, and doing so pretty much got rid of the low spot remnant in one go. Rest of the pass yielded a consistent enough bevel for what I'm looking for at this step. Right side done for now.

Left side didn't change much after the third pass, so I started to insist on the high/low area, always equalizing with the whole bevel. You'll see on the choil shot the effect of my insistence: we have an almost lefty grind for now on that knife. However, the high/low area is all but disappeared. Left side done for now - I wouldn't insist any longer without reworking the right side first.

I think all of this can be done with the Cerax 320 at the next step: I'll create my mud with bringing the right side on par with the left, then I'll count on the very slow abrasive rate/easy coloring of a muddy Cerax to get both sides even and smooth with a consistent finish.





*From left to right: original, after sanding in prep step, after thinning on SP320.*

Scale says 1g less, again. In reality, we are somewhere between 1g - 1.5g loss total, I would estimate.






To be continued...


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

Benuser said:


> Much, much slower and requiring brute force for thinning. Is not impossible but far from tempting. Why not just the SP220 instead?



Why the SP220 more than the SP320?


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

inferno said:


> the pro220 is very fast.
> 
> which brands of stones can you get in canada?



Easily would be any Shapton, Naniwa, Cerax/Suehiro - except the SG HR, we mostly see the regular SG around here. Consensus seems to be that the normal height glass stone is a terrible purchase because it won't last long at that kind of grits.


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2020)

Can only compare SP120 to SG320. 
SG320 is a very nice stone offering an even result, doesn't dish too fast but is relatively expensive. SP120 is cheaper and thicker, and I have no problem in dealing with its scratch pattern — I use either the NP400 or NP600, but probably the NP800 will do as well (haven't tried IIRC).


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

Well I guess if I manage to cover SP320 with Cerax 320, I could do the same with SP220. But if the faster abrasion rate also equals faster dishing, I would readily buy another SP320 instead.

If that slower NP400 is out of my equation. It's relatively expensive, and I really need a coarse that thins at least as well as SP320, and doesn't dish any faster than SP320. SG seems to be the ideal choice. I'll try again to find a HR...


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2020)

it doesn't exist. the coarse stones are faster because they release more abrasive. 
maybe king 300? the shapton pro 120 is also very fast.


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2020)

Not so sure about that fast abrasion meaning fast dishing. We would need the report of someone owing both SP320 and SP220.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

Okay I'm confused. I thought there was a series of thicker Shapton Glass. I thought that's what HR meant. It's not. Is there a thicker version than the 5mm SGs?


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2020)

only the 500 is available in double thick =10mm but its more like 12 mine was at least..
also my 220 glass was 7-8mm, not 5mm

i'd say a 220 glass will last about as long as a 220 pro. give or take.


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## ian (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> To maximize the effect of each pass on this one would ideally insist a bit with putting pressure exactly at both high spots (from the other side of the blade obviously) with two fingers, rather than insisting on each high spot independently.



Looking good! This sentence makes me think your strokes must be very short, if you’re actually able to keep finger pressure right over the high spots. Things will go much faster (and the stone will wear more evenly) if each stroke is nearly the full length of the stone. Think of it less as intentionally wearing down the high spots, and more as “evening things out”. Like, when you flatten your stones, you don’t focus on the high parts, you just flatten the thing, and your flattening plate automatically makes contact with the high spots because it’s flat.

Edit: sorry, this post is not well thought out and doesn’t make sense. however, the point about “evening things out” instead of intentionally lowering high spots is a good one, I think.


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2020)

More confusion: where I earlier have reported about the SP220, it was in fact the SP120 I had been using. Have corrected the text. Sorry for that. Can't tell you anything about the SP220. Own SG320, 220, 120HR and SP120.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

What’s your take on dishing with the SG320 regular? Is there really a big difference between HR and HC, and where so does it make sense with Shapton saying the HC are better with Carbon?


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> What’s your take on dishing with the SG320 regular? Is there really a big difference between HR and HC, and where so does it make sense with Shapton saying the HC are better with Carbon?


No dishing observed, some trace of a tactile feedback. Takes some time before getting evenly effective OOTB. Keep it permanently wet, which isn't easy.
Don't know by own experience the difference between HR and HC series. Have only used the HR. This is what my retailer tells about it:
_Shapton Glass Stones HR vs HC
There are two different series of the Shapton Glass Stones. There’s the HC series and the HR series. The HC series is a bit softer than the HR. Because of this the HR series is better suited for harder steel types and powder steels. Obviously, the HR series sharpens a bit more aggressive than the HC series. Shapton indicates that the HC-stone can be used for carbon steel blades, but our experience is the HR series will do fine as well._
I find them a bit expensive if you're a more than occasional user.


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2020)

the hc is only available in 4/6/8k 
they are gray. 
just as hard. 
polish a step or 2 above their stated grit (the white stones don't polish anything at all). 
is a little slower on all steels.

both the gray and the white stones does all common steels. its mostly bs this carbon/alloyed steel.
and if you dont have them side by side no one would ever know the difference.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

ian said:


> Looking good! This sentence makes me think your strokes must be very short, if you’re actually able to keep finger pressure right over the high spots. Things will go much faster (and the stone will wear more evenly) if each stroke is nearly the full length of the stone. Think of it less as intentionally wearing down the high spots, and more as “evening things out”. Like, when you flatten your stones, you don’t focus on the high parts, you just flatten the thing, and your flattening plate automatically makes contact with the high spots because it’s flat.



I’m not sure I follow you there. Why wouldn’t I be able to keep my fingers on the spot I choose in long strokes? Because that’s what I do. Longer strokes are indeed much more effective.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

Benuser said:


> No dishing observed, some trace of a tactile feedback. Takes some time before getting evenly effective OOTB. Keep it permanently wet, which isn't easy.
> Don't know by own experience the difference between HR and HC series. Have only used the HR. This is what my retailer tells about it:
> _Shapton Glass Stones HR vs HC
> There are two different series of the Shapton Glass Stones. There’s the HC series and the HR series. The HC series is a bit softer than the HR. Because of this the HR series is better suited for harder steel types and powder steels. Obviously, the HR series sharpens a bit more aggressive than the HC series. Shapton indicates that the HC-stone can be used for carbon steel blades, but our experience is the HR series will do fine as well._
> I find them a bit expensive if you're a more than occasional user.



I don’t know I have at least a retailer where SG pretty much follow a barely more expensive price structure on them than SPs. Less expensive than NPs by far.


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> I don’t know I have at least a retailer where SG pretty much follow a barely more expensive price structure on them than SPs. Less expensive than NPs by far.


I meant expensive for the use you get of it. IIRC, the Pro is at least two times as thick.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

But it is much slower to dish than SPs though?


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## ian (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> I’m not sure I follow you there. Why wouldn’t I be able to keep my fingers on the spot I choose in long strokes? Because that’s what I do. Longer strokes are indeed much more effective.



Ah, indeed, I think I was just writing stuff without thinking. Thanks for responding.

The point about “evening it out” vs intentionally hitting the high spots is helpful, at least to me, especially once the blade road is getting more even. Helps prevent you from introducing further irregularities.


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## ModRQC (Sep 19, 2020)

ian said:


> Ah, indeed, I think I was just writing stuff without thinking. Thanks for responding.
> 
> The point about “evening it out” vs intentionally hitting the high spots is helpful, at least to me, especially once the blade road is getting more even. Helps prevent you from introducing further irregularities.



Indeed but that was a bit of my point but I should’ve been clearer. I went into explaining this because I think many people would follow the false logic of trying pressure on the low spot, thinking that it’s their technique that’s wrong. I meant by this to identify the high spots that create a low spot if you must « insist » but I specified too to carry the work to the whole bevel. But I was trying to go too fast publishing the post and I may have introduced the wrong idea. Fine of you to point to the evening out process foremost. Thanks for replying and helping!


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> But it is much slower to dish than SPs though?


From the only grit I have both in SP and SG I can't support that conclusion. There's difference between both in that grit, not sure though it's about dishing, and not sure either it favours the SG line. Besides, I've found the SG220 to dish fast, too fast to my taste.


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## ModRQC (Sep 20, 2020)

inferno said:


> it doesn't exist. the coarse stones are faster because they release more abrasive.
> maybe king 300? the shapton pro 120 is also very fast.



I’m not asking for a unicorn coarse stone that’s fast and doesn’t dish. I’m asking if there’s something that doesn’t dish faster than SP320, cuts about as fast, but overall that one would deem superior. Not because I want to play fancy but because the SP320 is less than half its original state now and if nothing does much better than this, I’ll simply go for another one of the same. I’m all for expanding my experience with stones but I’m even more for a stone that does things fast enough without dishing fast like a Cerax 320 but leaves a finish I can easily cover with the Cerax. 

Ideally a SP320 that leaves a nice finish of its own and is twice as thick would be awesome.


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## inferno (Sep 20, 2020)

of the coarse stones i've tried they all wear fast if they remove metal fast.
the only exception is the 500 double thick glass. its relatively slow wearing yet very fast.

also you can use the 220ies with lighter pressure but then they wont be really fast imo.

maybe a coarse or medium SiC stone? i have had bad experience with a 100 grit SiC though. the stone sounds like its removing lots of material but almost nothing happens...

i feel the trick is to use high pressure but to spread the wear over the stone.


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## Kawa (Sep 20, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> While I have some of you good people around, two questions:
> 
> Could I expect the NP400 to be about as fast as SP320?
> 
> ...



Absolutely not.

The NP400 starts like a agressive cutter, but it's smooth after a few minutes. Waaaaaay smoother.
I can hardly feel any difference between my np400 and chosera600, which is also said to have a higher finish then an other 600. 

Im seriously conluding that a NP400, after a few minutes of use, feel towards an 800 or coarse 1000...

I don't like the stone. Untill recently I stopped using it as a 400, and started seeing it as a 700-900 kinda stone... Now my autistic brain can handle it (joking)...


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## ma_sha1 (Sep 20, 2020)

Good work! 

FYI, my Mab. also had a big “low spot” near the tip, I could be wrong but I think it was put there intentionally. It was on both sides symmetrically, & about inch and half long. It made the thin tip section even thinner.

I wonder if others with TF Mab can observe this?


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## ModRQC (Sep 20, 2020)

IDK left side of tip was pretty perfect here, first pass had it perfectly covered already. On the right side the small low spot there was a consequence of a high spot near the spine. Only the left side of the heel had a huge low spot, and all of that was probably just grinding inconsistency, none very difficult to even out.


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## ModRQC (Sep 20, 2020)

It’s sad that NPs don’t feature a real coarse stone.

Think I’ll stick with what I know works for me. Thanks all for the insights shared.


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## ModRQC (Sep 21, 2020)

Ok so I'll wrap this quick for tonight, I'm exhausted. All the young ones were here today, then I went into dinner prep, then I finished the thinning here and addressed all problems. It's awfully late, and I have to get up in four hours to go to work, problem being I'm still up.

As far as thinning is concerned this project is done. Can't be more satisfied with the essentials. Finish... is alright but not quite to my liking. Secondary concern though, this knife is in infancy, and what's important for it to grow up beautifully has been addressed. 

A further post will show what my usual mild etching resulted with, as well as sharpening. Etching was done tonight, but the lighting is truly inadequate here. The following pictures were difficult to obtain, and none so beautiful. The rest will wait when I'm here during the day and can benefit from some natural light.

Where my deepest insatisfaction lies is that the low spot at the left heel isn't entirely gone. It's pretty much been evened out but finish didn't take full hold. Only real problem that I had was a broken tip fragment once again (see Moritaka). Seems to be the norm when I thin. Something to learn from, but on the other hand I'd rather carry the job thoroughly, see the tip fail, repair to a stronger one, and be at peace, than working on an insanely thin tip that threatens to fail on me while prepping. I see this as a mild problem, sure, but also a guarantee that what's left behind once repaired is a blade tough enough on the whole edge. Especially when it breaks so squarely and evenly on a very minor scale.

So here we go...









Awaiting sharpening, then I'll see if it warrants for a couple more strokes spine down. I think it won't - there's literally no edge there anymore, so putting one should do the trick.










Of course this side is why I'm a bit disappointed with final finish, although I'll sleep like a baby tonight no doubt.





Not that it shows much or proves anything but I've grown fond of these shots. I just realized though that I inverted the left side shots: up should be down, down should be up, but who will care but me anyhow...





Sandpaper is so essential to my ways of doing things. After this experience, it won't be involved with any early thinning from now on, but it sure is darn useful where maintaining finish is concerned. Here, after thinning, some pass with #800 #1000 #2000 #3000 helped to hide many imperfections left from thinning on the tsuchime finish on both sides. #3000 also insured the Cerax finish on the bevels was smoothed out and wouldn't catch in food.





And since I was there, handle was smoothed further, and bolster as well, up to mirror finish. This cannot hide the many imperfections of the handle, but boy does it feel smooth and awesome in hand.

Now for the main course:





*Left to right: original, after sandpaper stage, after thinning on SP320, after completing thinning and putting the finish with Cerax 320*

So let's put this final choil pic under the follow spot:





That I'm hugely satisfied with!

My poor scale didn't report back any change from this final stage.




In the end, from 212/53 and 207g originally we're now @ 211/53 for 205g. With such an instrument, that means weight could be anywhere between 204g and 206g. The latter is more likely.

Be well folks!


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## Benuser (Sep 21, 2020)

Just one suggestion now: correct the tip by working from the spine _before_ sharpening.


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## ModRQC (Sep 21, 2020)

Yes I'll make sure to repair that tiny speck left we can see on the second picture. I used the SP320 yesterday for the bulk of the repair but it's very aggressive when getting to reform the very point, didn't like that feeling that I would possibly abrade the point as soon as I'd have recreated if not of the penultimate precision. With the Moritaka I repaired on NP800 and I was happy with the resulting point, the stone was fast enough for this application despite the higher grit but much smoother, and I think I'm better off doing the last few strokes on it this time again.

I also tested yesterday if the area was solid enough as is, reproducing rock chopping on a board, letting the knife rest on the very tip with all it's weight behind, and trying to bend it with my fingers. Very sturdy, can't even flex it applying brute force with a finger.

Yadda yadda, all I mean is don't worry too much for me, I always get there in the end.


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## ModRQC (Sep 23, 2020)

“And I will continue devoting myself making blades to satisfy these users by imagining faces of each user”
– Teruyasu Fujiwara

_… Fujiwara san makes his way home on a beautiful evening of September, only yearning for some rest after a busy day. As he crosses his threshold, he is suddenly hit by images that are, and are not, his own mind. He staggers a bit, finds hold to the doorjamb, and let the alien reel unfurl. These are not users faces. 

What is it? …_














Okay, okay! I’ll stop now…

Well there we are, yesterday was sharpening day.

By the way, can anyone guess what was my starting stone? What was my finishing stone? ;P

Quadruple fold newspaper test went quite alright!

Luuuv the demarcation of the cladding vs. core with that choil shot!

Finish is nice enough – and required the less amount of effort – but now that we’re there, it’s not suiting this blade. It looks like mud clinging to a blade – which is exactly what it is, but somehow where I find it agreeable enough on my Moritaka and my Deep Impact (would need some working on consistency finish wise, that one, though) it’s not fitting here. I’ll try a mirror polish on it next time, and then try a Rika kasumi alike finish from that polish the time after… Then who knows… Oh yes I am keeping that blade for sure.





Just look at that handle… Yes full of faults, but I made the most of it, and it’s solid, so smooth and comfortable, the knife ergonomically is perfect, and now looks quite the part from any distance but this close. This will be our dirty little TF secret. No one needs to know…

Okay, okay!

That’s the kind of love I give to a knife that has seduced me thoroughly, is what I mean. A keeper.

Sorry for the two next, went to show the etching, and the pics looked fine on the iPhone – “duh!” ultimate sh1t phone… In the end I could only salvage parts of the shots, and blurry ones at that.









Full blade – these pics are clean enough. How do you feel about that tip repair? It looks better than new to me. BTW you can see I had no intention to respect the recurve at the heel. While I understand its purpose, in my use of medium length Gyuto if a heel is is no flat spot then it’s a waste of space. For now recurve is still there, and makes for a rather inconsistent edge bevel. Couple of sharpenings from now we should get about even, it and me. My Masahiro VC has a recurve I respected to test myself, but intend to keep – it is my go-to rock chopper and best pepper cutter as is.







Now... TF looks pretty contemptuous about my results…






Mind you, that could have to do with a close presence with my Deep Impact. Now that we’re to this comparison, I’ll admit that where the DI handle has less faults, the Mabs handle just have it bite the dust from the circles it runs around it. A 500$ knife handle, not quite, and a shame to waste so good material and perfect potential – but head to head, the Mabs handle still wins.






While I was on the Mabs I just used the slurried NP800, and muddy creamed Rika, to touch up the Deep Impact and have my carrot laser out of its recent AS edge lethargy. Interesting thing, this. It still was cutting right. It still went through paper. But there wasn’t any more feeling to it. It was numbly sharp, almost feeling dull – but there those carrots still went. Today I rectified this, and TF is pissed because I didn’t buy his Denka. He’s thinking – you’d still have that crazy out of the stones edge with my AS.

Oh well… I now think that TF is mostly a sad man somehow. Proud of his technique and excellence, but bitterness has swallowed the light out of the persona, and some of that poison is leaking out into words that seem more terrible than what he really intended to say.

My final word on the Mabs is that it’s worth it’s price, but has a hard time with first impressions. Just like its maker. And I wish for TF to be at peace, if he’s not. I do love this knife.


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## ModRQC (Sep 23, 2020)

Now with some food prep – I don’t care much for a knife that cuts paper, even quadruple fold, even always-damp-paper-from-Ryky’s planet, if it doesn’t cut food.





I managed to have a bit of everything… That’s what wraps night is for – and the girlfriend’s lunch for tomorrow, and her daughter’s immediate snack.





Carrots: my best carrot cutter remains with the Deep Impact, but the Mabs now is almost there – there’s a cracking from the harsh shinogi when cutting the root of any +/- 20mm tall carrot, but no real tearing to the cut. We’ll see when we’ll get 30mm + roots, but great job still. As for halving lengthwise, we’re in the DI’s ballpark. Others of my knives are to this effect, mind you, and the DI remains carrots king. Going into a paysanne from there would be awesome with the Mabs though – probably blowing the DI and any other of my knives out of the scheme. I did a couple slices to that effect and munched the results on the spot – glassy textured paysanne, explosive taste, and the cutting feel was righteously balanced between going through nothing and feeling something. This is what this thinning Mabs session shines with – detailed cuts.





Then some cucumber. It takes a crap knife to feel bad with cutting these, but the texture and retained water are what differentiates good from crap, and all these cuts were on the very good side of good if I judge from sampling only one rondelle, and this leftover cucumber wasn’t even so fresh anymore to start with. Awesome food release.





Then a tomato… this is what we get around these parts in the grocery for tomatoes… hard and disgustingly fibrous. Still the Mabs made the most of it yet again with silk textured cuts for the young one and easily diced the rest for the wraps – skin up or down didn’t matter.





Then some lettuce – another awful batch from the grocery where it took 6 full leaves to have the equivalent of about three edible ones. Cut the bulk of haphazardly gathered dissected leaves into chiffonade as clean as if this lettuce was fresh of the garden.





Then some red pepper – ill-shaped leftover once again so you’ll forgive me the cuts to the right, but the Mabs was keen in helping me getting the most out of that, and to the left, the only about righteous quarter I could get, cut skin up (added difficulty – curvy ends and flexible stance) until the very last slice where I had to save my fingers, flip it and tip slice it in half. Food release as awesome as with the cucumber rounds.





Then the onion. Tip and root off felt like butter. Big deception of wedging when halving – wide main bevel suction. Awesome slicing. Just awesome. Perhaps I have better onion cutters where overall performance is concerned, but when it comes to a fine slicing, and I’m sure fine dicing too, the control and feedback I get with the Mabs is impressing. Food release still awesome. You can see by the picture that I really wanted to "cut" that second half. But no need for it, this was enough.





Then bacon – that was a joke really. Just wanted shorter slices for the Mabs to do it – a quick drag tip slice went through the stack leaving two behind and no proof they ever were united if not for the circumstantial proximity. That was a 8 slices stack. 

Then, my hand… went to wash the knife and there you have it, four perfectly sliced fingertips… naaaaah don’t get your hopes up I’m just fooling.

No just some patina...





Be well folks!


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## MarcelNL (Sep 23, 2020)

looks splendid! Funny that you mention cucumber, I can recall discovering a difference in texture using my first decent knives that I contributed to retaining water. I dubbed it, the knife is so sharp that the cucumber does not yet know it has been cut.


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## ModRQC (Sep 23, 2020)

It's shock... like getting a bullet and going on for some seconds. Body doesn't realize the hit until it's severity kicks in.


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