# Takada Suiboku



## friz

Hi guys.

I have been watching this line of knives from Takada very closely for few months. 
I would love to know, from people who own this series, once the knife develop patina I assume that cleaning it off would ruin the suiboku finish? Can you guys share your experience on that? 

In fact I think I will get the Ginsan version for that reason alone. 

For what is worth, I think the FT line from Konosuke has the similar 'issue', polish is easy to be polished away when trying to remove patina.


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## labor of love

I tested the carbon wh2 for about a month. Plan on buying the ginsan later on today...maybe.
Here’s some pics


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## friz

@labor of love Sure,but have you tried to take the patina off?


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## MowgFace

I have both, but have not tried to clean off the patina on the carbon version.


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## friz

MowgFace said:


> I have both, but have not tried to clean off the patina on the carbon version.


How is the ginsan?


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## labor of love

Well don’t quote me here, but I think the finish remains after patina removal? Can’t say that this is something I really paid attention to closely.


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## friz

labor of love said:


> Well don’t quote me here, but I think the finish remains after patina removal? Can’t say that this is something I really paid attention to closely.


Gotcha. I think people buy the knife for the finish mostly, I will feel sad if taking the patina off will affect the original polishing. 
I know the FT of konosuke will change the finish, unless you will be extra careful in removing the patina.

By the way, the finish of FT and Takada are very very similar. Fujiyama Takada - FT?


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## labor of love

friz said:


> Gotcha. I think people buy the knife for the finish mostly, I will feel sad if taking the patina off will affect the original polishing.
> I know the FT of konosuke will change the finish, unless you will be extra careful in removing the patina.
> 
> By the way, the finish of FT and Takada are very very similar. Fujiyama Takada - FT?


Kanji is cool, but the cutting ability speaks for itself.


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## friz

labor of love said:


> Kanji is cool, but the cutting ability speaks for itself.


I don't understand what you meant.


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## labor of love

I suppose we’re interested in takada no Hamono knives for different reasons. I’m not worried about a diminishing finish occurring.
Love the way they cut, among other things.


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## friz

labor of love said:


> I suppose we’re interested in takada no Hamono knives for different reasons. I’m not worried about a diminishing finish occurring.
> Love the way they cut, among other things.


Marvellous. Happy to hear the performance is great!


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## labor of love

Sorry if I was vague lol


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## MowgFace

friz said:


> How is the ginsan?



So far, it seems identical to the W#2. Profile is basically identical, though the W#2 is a couple mm longer on my samples.

Great cutter, and a really thin tip. I can grab some pictures in a few.


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## Corradobrit1

He apprenticed with Hiroshi Ashi for several years so has good pedigree.

Correction: over 20 years


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## LewRob80

Haven’t had any experiences with the finish fading yet, but also haven’t had a ton of patina develop yet. Has seen light use if a pro kitchen. Really great cutting performance and HT makes touch ups very nice


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## friz

About the ginsan, I asked MTC for heel height, he said 50mm ish, how tall is yours @MowgFace ?


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## friz

@DitmasPork How is your going?


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## labor of love

friz said:


> About the ginsan, I asked MTC for heel height, he said 50mm ish, how tall is yours @MowgFace ?


That’s weird because the 270mm wh2 is 50mm


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## friz

labor of love said:


> That’s weird because the 270mm wh2 is 50mm


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## labor of love

Cool


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## friz

labor of love said:


> Cool


the fact he used cm and not mm scares me.


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## labor of love

It looks fine to me.


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## MowgFace

friz said:


> About the ginsan, I asked MTC for heel height, he said 50mm ish, how tall is yours @MowgFace ?



50mm on both Carbon and Ginsanko.


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## labor of love

MowgFace said:


> 50mm on both Carbon and Ginsanko.


This is pretty funny. So the 270mm is the same height and like 20mm longer.


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## Bear

I don't think you would have too much of a problem unless you do it all the time, if you keep it eventually its going to wear off, its definitely a polished knife. I have it in blue, Yoshikazu Tanaka, its a great knife, heel is 49mm,weight 174gm, if you look closely you can see they etch them with a cloth wrapped around them.





friz said:


> For what is worth, I think the FT line from Konosuke has the similar 'issue', polish is easy to be polished away when trying to remove patina.



I had a FT in white and had no problems with the finish on it at all, I just didn't care for the steel.


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## Robert Lavacca

Once that knife needs some thinning I would Imagine the finish is going to be a pain in the butt to restore. Pretty thin knives so it’s not like that will happen right away but I would just go with what steel you prefer. The ginsan looks nice but I would just prefer something longer than the usual 224mm I see. I would imagine the patina if polished off wouldn’t affect the finish on the knife but I mean I gave up a long time ago trying to keep every knife finish perfect. It’s just not worth it sometimes when you’re in pro settings. Take care of them, sure. Even with the ginsan though, eventually, you will have to work on the finish to bring it back and I would imagine if you do stone work on the two different knives you would end up with a better looking finish with iron/carbon than SS/Ginsan.


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## friz

Bear said:


> I don't think you would have too much of a problem unless you do it all the time, if you keep it eventually its going to wear off, its definitely a polished knife. I have it in blue, Yoshikazu Tanaka, its a great knife, heel is 49mm,weight 174gm, if you look closely you can see they etch them with a cloth wrapped around them.
> View attachment 101779
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had a FT in white and had no problems with the finish on it at all, I just didn't care for the steel.
> 
> View attachment 101780


Thank you so much mate! You have been very helpful.




Robert Lavacca said:


> Once that knife needs some thinning I would Imagine the finish is going to be a pain in the butt to restore. Pretty thin knives so it’s not like that will happen right away but I would just go with what steel you prefer. The ginsan looks nice but I would just prefer something longer than the usual 224mm I see. I would imagine the patina if polished off wouldn’t affect the finish on the knife but I mean I gave up a long time ago trying to keep every knife finish perfect. It’s just not worth it sometimes when you’re in pro settings. Take care of them, sure. Even with the ginsan though, eventually, you will have to work on the finish to bring it back and I would imagine if you do stone work on the two different knives you would end up with a better looking finish with iron/carbon than SS/Ginsan.


Grazie Robert. Now you make me think twice before going with Ginsan. Wish I have unlimited money to test them all.


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## LewRob80

Can highly recommend takada w2, wish I had gotten the 240 instead of 210, but would like to try the ginsan too


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## DitmasPork

friz said:


> @DitmasPork How is your going?


So in love with it. Has become one of my daily drivers. My 240, b1, measures 225 x 49mm, from MTC a few months ago. Good counterpoint to my other gyutos, which are workhorses.


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## QCDawg

Thinnest knife in my gyuto lineup.. next to a SIH 240. It’s really good. Tanaka and Takada team are a good one.


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## Bear

labor of love said:


> This is pretty funny. So the 270mm is the same height and like 20mm longer.


Carbon has a new 270 in that's 53mm.


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## RockyBasel

Great minds think alike - today I ordered the 270 Blue 1 Takada no hamono from CKC

I am a Y Tanaka fan, so the combo of two sounded really interesting

I have the Y Tanaka dammy from JNS and this would be a different and lighter offering - that one is 205 gm and dammy

That pretty sealed the decision to pull the trigger

The heel height on the 270 on CKC is 53 mm

I don’t know what I will do with my White Suiboke now - we shall see - also CKC and specs are listed.

The white suiboke 240 is just a delightful knife to look at, hold, and use. Hoping Blue 1 270 will be equally good

CKC prices for blue 1 270 are competitive with the price of the blue 1 240 on MTC


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## labor of love

Bear said:


> Carbon has a new 270 in that's 53mm.


Oh.
I’m talking about the wh2 one.








Takada no Hamono Suiboku White #2 Gyuto 270mm


Located in Sakai, Japan Takada no Hamono is producing premium quality kitchen knives. With over 20 years in experience training under one of Sakai cities finest craftsman, these knives provide top level performance and finish. Takada no Hamono specializes in thin convex sharpening and applies...




carbonknifeco.com


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## RockyBasel

I prefer a slightly higher heel height / for the 270, I would have preferred maybe 54-55


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## Robert Lavacca

RockyBasel said:


> Great minds think alike - today I ordered the 270 Blue 1 Takada no hamono from CKC
> 
> I am a Y Tanaka fan, so the combo of two sounded really interesting
> 
> I have the Y Tanaka dammy from JNS and this would be a different and lighter offering - that one is 205 gm and dammy
> 
> That pretty sealed the decision to pull the trigger
> 
> The heel height on the 270 on CKC is 53 mm
> 
> I don’t know what I will do with my White Suiboke now - we shall see - also CKC and specs are listed.
> 
> The white suiboke 240 is just a delightful knife to look at, hold, and use. Hoping Blue 1 270 will be equally good
> 
> CKC prices for blue 1 270 are competitive with the price of the blue 1 240 on MTC


Jesus bro slow down. You have more knives than I do and i’ve been in pro kitchens for 13 years .


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## Robert Lavacca

Finish is beautiful on these carbon. Grind doesn’t excite me much. I definitely would be all over a 270 reika just because it’s a beefier grind. I don’t know though maybe I should try some thinner knives out again.


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## RockyBasel

Robert Lavacca said:


> Jesus bro slow down. You have more knives than I do and i’ve been in pro kitchens for 13 years .



That’s exactly my inner voice, each time I buy

I am also off-loading, have simply too many and need to slow-down


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## QCDawg

I want to see somebody’s version (won’t be me, I suck at 
polishing) .. that they thinned ...and “natural stone” / kasumi.. polished.


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## Dan E

Hi Everyone,

I am also interested in the Suiboku blue 1 and have very little exposures to blues in general. For the more experienced among you -- would you go for the Takada or rather pick something else, e.g. a Fujiwara Denka or a Hitohira togashi blue? 

Best regards,
Dan


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## RockyBasel

Oooh, interesting question

I have 2, and have had all three

I think Denka is the most interesting knife of the three - the way you need a Denka whisperer if it’s your first Denka (thank you @Corradobrit1), quality concerns, but what you get is a great knife. It just feels different and is an amazing performer - also stainless clad and worry free

With togashi, it depends on the sharpener a bit, and the style - I have Togashi sharpened by Tosa - Aoki Hamono- but these are heavier knives 260 gm. The grinds on these knives are flawless and they are magnificent

I have the Takada blue 1 270 - because the 240 Takada almost feels like a 225 mm knife - it’s short, and has a 49mm heel height. I prefer taller knives like my Toyama or Dalman. 

I would say Denka (much more expensive) is a knife of character, that provides an amazing cutting experience. 

I am a Toyama devotee too. So for stainless clad - it’s Denka followed by Toyama, I would suggest

For blue 1’s, I would say togashi plus the right sharpener. But the Togashi stainless is his son I believe, great knife still


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## tcmx3

Dan E said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I am also interested in the Suiboku blue 1 and have very little exposures to blues in general. For the more experienced among you -- would you go for the Takada or rather pick something else, e.g. a Fujiwara Denka or a Hitohira togashi blue?
> 
> Best regards,
> Dan



I wouldnt touch a TF unless I was a significantly better sharpener than I am (and I say that after having spent a LOT of time practicing recently & acquired a ton of equipment). Too much hassle/work.

the literal only downside of Takada IMO is that 50mm heel height is short for a 240 for my personal preferences.

Toyama stainless is a good suggestion for stainless clad blue steel knife but I *hate* ho-wood handles so even though I bought mine on sale I was in close to 600 by the time I got a proper burnt chestnut handle installed on it & it still doesnt have fit & finish anywhere near as nice as a Takada.


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## xxxclx

Could someone post some pictures of the patina (or the lack of patina) on their used ginsan Takadas? Curious about how they patina compared to blue 1. 

I have the blue 1 that I really love (on par with my Raquin and above my Watanabe), and I am thinking about using Flitz on it to clean the patina. Will post results this weekend.


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## kevin

xxxclx said:


> Could someone post some pictures of the patina (or the lack of patina) on their used ginsan Takadas? Curious about how they patina compared to blue 1.



Ginsan is stainless.


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## MowgFace

xxxclx said:


> Could someone post some pictures of the patina (or the lack of patina) on their used ginsan Takadas?


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## xxxclx

MowgFace said:


> View attachment 115623
> View attachment 115624
> View attachment 115625
> View attachment 115626



Thank you for this beautiful example! Now I have to find one for myself. Is yours around 50mm in heel height as well?


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## MowgFace

50mm on the dot. So is my W#2. Word on the street is the 270s are also 50mm


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## xxxclx

Before and after of some quick flitz and cork work on my B1 Takada. No noticeable damage to the suiboku finish.


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## Duukt

How does the ginsan version fare against the carbon steels? Would edge retention be about the same while avoiding patina?


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## RockyBasel

Ginsan is stainless - so no patina whatsoever

don’t know about esge retention yet, as it’s new I am too busy using my other knives right now


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## iandustries

RockyBasel said:


> Ginsan is stainless - so no patina whatsoever
> 
> don’t know about esge retention yet, as it’s new I am too busy using my other knives right now


I would really like to know how the ginsan performs as well! deciding between this, blue 1 and white 2


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## iandustries

Anyone see any 240mm Suiboku Ginsans around?


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## DitmasPork

iandustries said:


> Anyone see any 240mm Suiboku Ginsans around?








I was in MTC yesterday, they did have the 210 ginsan, dunno of they had any 240s stashed away somewhere.


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## iandustries

Thank you! I did email them a week ago and they are currently sold out of the 240 unfortunately. I too am based in NYC coincidentally.


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## DitmasPork

iandustries said:


> Thank you! I did email them a week ago and they are currently sold out of the 240 unfortunately. I too am based in NYC coincidentally.



Yeah, occasionally they'll have things in the shop that aren't listed on the website. Have you tried calling the NYC shop? I think the shipping part of MTC is in NJ.


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## iandustries

good tip, thank you I ll check!


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## WaTFTanaki

I have a 210 Tanaka B1 Takada Suiboku from MTC and after iterating over many Y Tanaka knives I am coming to realize the Takada I have is my fav knife. The 210 Y Tanaka OUL &. 210 Denka are second but don’t give me the total awe of this knife. Tanaka with Takada grinds are becoming unicorns. Does anyone know any other sites for 240 or 270 gyuto from Tanaka x Takada, besides MTC, whose fees to ship to UK are exorbitant? I do NOT want a santoku, suji, nakiri from Takada plus Yoshikazu Tanaja. I have a Nakagawa 210 Takada gyuto wich I like v much, but gets bearen by Tanaka version. 

Long winded way of saying, besides MTC, where can I get Tanaka x Takada gyuto 240 or 270 suiboku or not?

Much obliged


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## MowgFace

iandustries said:


> I would really like to know how the ginsan performs as well! deciding between this, blue 1 and white 2



My Ginsanko performs identically to my W#2. Havent sharpened either of them, but they are pretty new and I have plenty of knives to rotate between. As new I couldn’t tell them apart if the Ginsanko patina’d.


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## RockyBasel

iandustries said:


> Anyone see any 240mm Suiboku Ginsans around?


They are hard to find, and that’s why i snapped one up the moment I saw it at MTC kitchen - they may still have them who knows.

But ginsan edge cannot keep up with a. Blue 1 or 2

But ginsan is so practical and maintenance free


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## tostadas

iandustries said:


> Anyone see any 240mm Suiboku Ginsans around?


Tosho just got some ginsan ones in recently. Not sure what sizes are remaining now.

edit: oops, I dont recall seeing any 240s in that batch


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## chefwp

Good questions, I have no plans to polish this one yet, but I am enjoying watching the patina form. I was looking at that 210 Ginsan gyuto, am possibly interested in obtaining one.


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## chefwp

Dan E said:


> I am also interested in the Suiboku blue 1 and have very little exposures to blues in general. For the more experienced among you -- would you go for the Takada or rather pick something else, e.g. a Fujiwara Denka or a Hitohira togashi blue?


I have a Hitohira bunka and a Takada nakiri, both 180mm and both in B-1, they are both really nice, but if I had to choose one, the Takada would win without much thought. It just feels more solid and I feel like the attention to detail around all the edges, not just the super sharp one, is superior.


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## RockyBasel

I had a Takada Suiboke 270 blue 1, and also a Tanaka-Yohei blue 1, and I have to say, I prefer the Tanaka-Yohei 270 from Strata - it is an incredible knife


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## WaTFTanaki

Anyone know of any Takada Tanaka retailers besides MTC? Looking for a 240 gyuto. Have the 210 Takada Tanaka suiboku and just ordered a 240 Yohei Tanaka. But MTC shipping costs to UK are criminal. Opposite of Bernal.


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## iandustries

WaTFTanaki said:


> Anyone know of any Takada Tanaka retailers besides MTC? Looking for a 240 gyuto. Have the 210 Takada Tanaka suiboku and just ordered a 240 Yohei Tanaka. But MTC shipping costs to UK are criminal. Opposite of Bernal.



DM tsubaya tokyo- i just ordered a 240mm ginsan suiboku, they might have some tanaka b1 or w2, doesn’t hurt to ask !


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## OkLobster

WaTFTanaki said:


> Anyone know of any Takada Tanaka retailers besides MTC? Looking for a 240 gyuto. Have the 210 Takada Tanaka suiboku and just ordered a 240 Yohei Tanaka. But MTC shipping costs to UK are criminal. Opposite of Bernal.



Carbon is also a Takada Tanaka dealer. Craig's most recent restock was about 1.5 months ago for a few Reikas, B1, and W2 240mm gyutos IIRC.


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## Heckel7302

WaTFTanaki said:


> Anyone know of any Takada Tanaka retailers besides MTC? Looking for a 240 gyuto. Have the 210 Takada Tanaka suiboku and just ordered a 240 Yohei Tanaka. But MTC shipping costs to UK are criminal. Opposite of Bernal.


Ai&Om/Tosho in Canada carries them if I remember correctly


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## WaTFTanaki

Thanks everyone looks pretty sold out but will try tsubaya


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## superworrier

RockyBasel said:


> I had a Takada Suiboke 270 blue 1, and also a Tanaka-Yohei blue 1, and I have to say, I prefer the Tanaka-Yohei 270 from Strata - it is an incredible knife


What makes you like one more than the other?


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## WaTFTanaki

I am going to dig the 240 Yohei Tanaka I got for awhile. Arrived today. It’s amazing.


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## iandustries

WaTFTanaki said:


> I am going to dig the 240 Yohei Tanaka I got for awhile. Arrived today. It’s amazing.


 nice. where did you end up getting it from ?


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## WaTFTanaki

Kitchin tools in Singapore was the only place that seemed to carry them at the moment. Pretty fast ans easy to the UK


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## josemartinlopez

How exactly is the Y Tanaka Yohei different, seems a number of people here have both this and the Takada Suiboku Blue 1? I love the Y Tanaka Yohei despite the ridiculously reactive cladding.


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## bonody

josemartinlopez said:


> How exactly is the Y Tanaka Yohei different, seems a number of people here have both this and the Takada Suiboku Blue 1? I love the Y Tanaka Yohei despite the ridiculously reactive cladding.



Interested in hearing the answer to this, I also have a Tanaka-Yohei but no Suiboku.
Seems like the difference is just the finish?


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## superworrier

I’ve read the grind is a little thicker on the Yohei


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## iandustries

superworrier said:


> I’ve read the grind is a little thicker on the Yohei



Yup this is true, suiboku cuts more like an ashi


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## josemartinlopez

You guys mean like the real lasers like Ashi, Suisin Inox Honyaki etc kind of knives?


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## iandustries

I have the suiboku w2 and an ashi stainless, the suiboku feels more of a laser to me than the ashi.


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## tostadas

Can anyone explain what the "suiboku finish" means? I've been looking and havent been able to find a definition.


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## Heckel7302

It refers to a style of ink painting, which he was inspired by when creating the finish. 









suiboku-ga | Japanese painting style


suiboku-ga, also called Sumi-e, Japanese monochrome ink painting, a technique first developed in China during the Sung dynasty (960–1274) and taken to Japan by Zen Buddhist monks in the mid-14th century. Although generally content to copy Chinese models, early Japanese artists also excelled in...



www.britannica.com





Takada-San keeps his technique a secret, but others have postulated that he covers the blades in a rag with some sort of etching agent to produce the finish. So it’s sort of like a forced patina I guess, but one that doesn’t rub off easily. It has the look of almost wrinkled denim to me. Each knife is different. Mine is pretty subtle and definitely best appreciated in person.


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## tostadas

Heckel7302 said:


> It refers to a style of ink painting, which he was inspired by when creating the finish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> suiboku-ga | Japanese painting style
> 
> 
> suiboku-ga, also called Sumi-e, Japanese monochrome ink painting, a technique first developed in China during the Sung dynasty (960–1274) and taken to Japan by Zen Buddhist monks in the mid-14th century. Although generally content to copy Chinese models, early Japanese artists also excelled in...
> 
> 
> 
> www.britannica.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Takada-San keeps his technique a secret, but others have postulated that he covers the blades in a rag with some sort of etching agent to produce the finish. So it’s sort of like a forced patina I guess, but one that doesn’t rub off easily. It has the look of almost wrinkled denim to me. Each knife is different. Mine is pretty subtle and definitely best appreciated in person.


So it's sorta like polishing it similar to what's done to bring out steel banding in other knives? As opposed to something like a migaki brushed finish, or a hazy kasumi I assume.


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## Heckel7302

tostadas said:


> So it's sorta like polishing it similar to what's done to bring out steel banding in other knives? As opposed to something like a migaki brushed finish, or a hazy kasumi I assume.


No. It's applied AFAIK. It doesn't have anything to do with banding or anything in the iron cladding.


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## Bensonhai




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## Bensonhai

My favorite forged by Y. TANAKA


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## iandustries

Bensonhai said:


> My favorite forged by Y. TANAKA



Does this have the same performance as the non-damascus suiboku equivalent? Is it ground to the same weight/ stats?


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## Bensonhai

iandustries said:


> Does this have the same performance as the non-damascus suiboku equivalent? Is it ground to the same weight/ stats?


I believe so, don't have a regular one. This is thin!


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## superworrier

iandustries said:


> Does this have the same performance as the non-damascus suiboku equivalent? Is it ground to the same weight/ stats?


My dammy performs better than the Suiboku I had. May just be individual variation though. It definitely has more feedback but that may be down to harder cladding. The actual weight is higher due to handle material.


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## dgman

This was my first .......a 300 sujihiki #blue 1


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