# Lasers- current state of play



## Nemo

I have used some knives that are very thin behind the edge but I don't think I've ever used a true laser. Not sure if I need to scratch that itch or not.

How are lasers defined (is it by weight or is it just a case of "you'll know it when you see it"?)

From my reading, the list of knives that I would recognise as lasers is:
Suisin IH
Gesshin Ginga
Sakai Yusuke
Kono HD/HD2 (?no longer available)
Kono GS/ GS+
FRKZ Swedish
?Red handle Takamura Pro.

Did I miss any? Did I include any that I shouldn't have?

Any opinions about the lasers that you have used (especially sharpenability, edge retention and cutting performance)?


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## labor of love

Your list is accurate-but the thing that makes a laser a laser isn't that it's thin behind the edge(all sorts of knives are like that)but that the whole blade is thin, not much convexing because there isn't much room. Hence, falls through food like a laser.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Ryusen. Some Blazen and also VS series...

If there is no official definition, I'd say "cuts fresh lotus roots into arbitrary rounds with less than three near-accidents per pound"


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## Timthebeaver

Ikkanshi Tadatsuna - possibly the original "laser"
Mizuno stainless, another from Sakai.
Shibata Kotetsu = k-tip lasers


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## labor of love

I tried 210mm-270mm lasers and always preferred the 270mm length. Suisin wa gyuto has better edge retention over the Swedish stainless stuff. The tad should be the easiest to sharpen but offers the least edge retention for stainless. There's ALOT of old threads comparing the differences between the brands and the consensus seems to be that they cut about the same. But I'm not including takamura or kono g1 as I've never tried them. Hd acts typical of semi stainless, sharpens quick but retention not as good as stainless but better than the shirogami lasers. Suisin has the handle I liked the most, Jon has a couple on sell right now so that's the main reason I decided to rebuy one. Still really want to try a tad though.


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## pleue

Suisin has been by far my favorite (it's also a joy to sharpen and very easy to get a good edge) but the price point is much higher. If you love lasers, get a suisin. If you're not sure, try something else? I believe they run short as well, I prefer 270 in general, but can see the benefit of sizing up on a laser regardless.


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## malexthekid

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Ryusen. Some Blazen and also VS series...
> 
> If there is no official definition, I'd say "cuts fresh lotus roots into arbitrary rounds with less than three near-accidents per pound"



I don't know if I would call the Blazen a laser. It is thin but not quite there in my opinion.


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## Nemo

malexthekid said:


> I don't know if I would call the Blazen a laser. It is thin but not quite there in my opinion.



I would agree with this.

I would also put Akifusa in this category. Akifusa is a little lighter than Blazen, but still not quite a laser.


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## Nemo

Thanks everyone for your perspectives.


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## daveb

I've had the Gesshin in 270 and 240, inexplicably sold them. And the Suisin IH in 240. With the Stefan custom handle. That now lives at Tony the tow truck drivers house after my truck was totaled and towed and the rat bastard disappeared it. Next laser I'm going to go with the Tad. Love me some Ginsanko.


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## K813zra

I asked the same question, or similar, before i bought my first laser. The consensus was a knife that was continuously thin at all points and wisps through food without effort. Or something along those lines. Interestingly, I have seen many say that spine thickness has nothing to do with this. I guess it is one of those things where all lasers seem to have a thin spine but not all thin spined knives are lasers. This makes sense to me as I have many knives that are around 2mm+/- at the spine and they are very different than my lasers.

Regardless, you asked for our experience with the lasers we have. I have a Ginga and Kono W#2 and I would say that they are more comparable than not. Both knives are fairly thin throughout and have a subtle convex, not overly pronounced but enough to make them perform well enough for me. Neither are what I would consider good with food release but they are not horrible either. If we use potatoes as an example, they stick, however a flick of the wrist will free them up. Compare that to something like a Fujiwara FKM or Suisin Western Inox and the difference is night and day to say the least. Misono isn't any better either. Digressing back to the lasers I would say that the both pretty much have that feeling of gliding through food as if it wasn't there in the first place, with most objects. Spongier mushrooms seem to be my only obstacle. Not that the knife does not work well but you can feel the drag almost as if the knife is telling you to pay attention or it will come to a full stop, but never does. If that makes sense to you.

Bleh, more coffee is needed. I apologize for my thoughts not being organized. 

Okay, starting again I would say that these knives are thin from the spine to the edge and everywhere in between. Interestingly they have fairly robust tips. They perform well but they are not as thin as some of my sanmai knives. This has never shown to be an issue. They also have some flex, particularly at the front 1/3 of the blade so one must take care to not flex them on the stones. That should not be an issue for anyone with decent sharpening skills as the flex is slight. Speaking of sharpening, my lasers sharpen with ease and more so than any other knife I own. In my case I suppose that is due to a number of factors. First off they are both W#2, they are thin overall but especially at and behind the edge. 

Another thing I can say about my lasers is that they came with a rather obtuse angle out of the box. It was almost as if there as not an edge. I mean, they were sharp but I needed to set my own edge. Doing this vastly improved performance, or at least to my liking. 

Again, I am sorry for jumping all over the place here. Anyway, I hope this was of at least a little help.


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## Nemo

Thanks for your thoughts K813


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## tsuriru

Nemo said:


> Did I miss any?



 I dont think you did.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Is there any knife at all that feels sharp enough when cutting "Spongier mushrooms" ?


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## cheflivengood

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Is there any knife at all that feels sharp enough when cutting "Spongier mushrooms" ?



HAHA I know exactly what you mean. Shiitakes especially, I would just send them back if they were not firm enough to slice paper thin. Think I had a Konosuke HD 170mm petty.


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## tsuriru

we get some pretty nice wild Suillus granulatus here. They are extremely spungy. I found Nakiri style blades polished slightly higher than the "normal" kitchen knife edge (wich is just a bit toothy normally yes?) to work very well with this sort of material.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Brunoising normal champignons also can make you wonder if you're using the knife edge up...


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## K813zra

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Is there any knife at all that feels sharp enough when cutting "Spongier mushrooms" ?



I don't know but I tend to prefer my heavier knives for this. They seem to "power" through them or something like that.


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## ThEoRy

I would throw my Shigeki Tanaka 210mm R2 Wa Gyuto in the laser category. You can add some Chris Anderson Scorpion Forge gyutos in there as well.


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## Nemo

ThEoRy said:


> I would throw my Shigeki Tanaka 210mm R2 Wa Gyuto in the laser category. You can add some Chris Anderson Scorpion Forge gyutos in there as well.


Thanks Rick. I had become a bit confused about the Tanaka R2s. They are sometimes described as lasers and sometimes not?

Is the laser grind specific to the Shigeki Tanaka R2s?

Is Skigeki the father or son (or other)?


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## cyberbaton

I purchased wa r2 few weeks ago from mm and it's definitely not a laser. I think the concept of his grinds has changed over the years.


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## LoneWolfGang

Kiwi deserves an honorable mention


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## Nemo

LoneWolfGang said:


> Kiwi deserves an honorable mention



Really?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Well, they ARE thin (~0.9mm spine with the nakiri or the thinner of the k-typ gyutos), comparably low cutting resistance knives. And yes, they behave a bit laser like. Completely different geometry (hollow grind) from what is usually called a laser here.


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## daddy yo yo

So, there seems to be consensus that the Gesshin Ginga plays in the laser category. Both, western and wa?

And if so, is the Misono UX10 also a laser? I am trying to compare Gesshin Ginga western stainless with UX10... Thickness above heel is identical...


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## khashy

Do you guys consider the monosteel Takayuki Blue2's as laser? the definitely feel 'lasery' to me:

http://www.knivesandstones.com/sakai-takayuki-aoniko-blue-2-carbon-steel-gyuto-chefs-240mm-9-5/


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## Nemo

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Well, they ARE thin (~0.9mm spine with the nakiri or the thinner of the k-typ gyutos), comparably low cutting resistance knives. And yes, they behave a bit laser like. Completely different geometry (hollow grind) from what is usually called a laser here.



There you go- learn something new each day!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@Nemo to avoid confusion: There seem to be multiple kinds of knives called Kiwi. This here is about the very inexpensive Thai stainless steel knives.


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## Nemo

Those were the ones I was thinking of.


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## JaVa

About the Takamura knives, There's the red handle R2/migaki/hsps and the black handle R2 pro series. I've never handle the pro series, but I'm remembering it to be a bit thicker and maybe closer to middleweight than laser. The red handle one is certainly one of the most laser knives out there, but the biggest is only 210. The pro line has a 240 size, but I don't remember the last time I saw those in stock anywhere. 

If K-tip gyuto is of any interest you could check out the Shiro Kamo B2 migaki kiritsuke. I have the 240 gyuto and love it. I bought it from Cleancut and it's the thinnest laser I've seen including the Takamura R2. The gyuto is discontinued but the Kiritsuke is still available and is very nicely priced. It's a bit reactive though.


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## Nemo

JaVa said:


> About the Takamura knives, There's the red handle R2/migaki/hsps and the black handle R2 pro series. I've never handle the pro series, but I'm remembering it to be a bit thicker and maybe closer to middleweight than laser. The red handle one is certainly one of the most laser knives out there, but the biggest is only 210. The pro line has a 240 size, but I don't remember the last time I saw those in stock anywhere.
> 
> If K-tip gyuto is of any interest you could check out the Shiro Kamo B2 migaki kiritsuke. I have the 240 gyuto and love it. I bought it from Cleancut and it's the thinnest laser I've seen including the Takamura R2. The gyuto is discontinued but the Kiritsuke is still available and is very nicely priced. It's a bit reactive though.



Thanks JaVa. Is it san mai or mono B2?

If it's half as good as Syousin Siminagashi, it'll be great.


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## JaVa

Nemo said:


> Thanks JaVa. Is it san mai or mono B2?
> 
> If it's half as good as Syousin Siminagashi, it'll be great.



It's san mai. 

...And I'd say it's just as good as the Syousin Suminigashi. Different, but just as good. The gyuto is long and tall with a long flat spot and the kiritsuke of course has even a longer flat spot. My gyuto has a very nice distal taper, but not sure how that works with the kiritsuke shape. It has a well made convex grind too. As much as there's room with such a thin blade. The heat treat is well done to a 64 HRC and mine haven't been chippy at all.


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## daveb

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Well, they ARE thin (~0.9mm spine with the nakiri or the thinner of the k-typ gyutos), comparably low cutting resistance knives. And yes, they behave a bit laser like. Completely different geometry (hollow grind) from what is usually called a laser here.



Kiwi and grind. Now that's a first time ever concept:groucho:


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## Nemo

JaVa said:


> It's san mai.
> 
> ...And I'd say it's just as good as the Syousin Suminigashi. Different, but just as good. The gyuto is long and tall with a long flat spot and the kiritsuke of course has even a longer flat spot. My gyuto has a very nice distal taper, but not sure how that works with the kiritsuke shape. It has a well made convex grind too. As much as there's room with such a thin blade. The heat treat is well done to a 64 HRC and mine haven't been chippy at all.



I assume it's the migaki B2 not the damascus B2 that you are describing?


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## JaVa

Nemo said:


> I assume it's the migaki B2 not the damascus B2 that you are describing?



Yes. The damascus version is thin-ish too but closer to middleweight. I've also had the KU version which I sold a week ago and it's supposed to be the same (middleweight) thickness as the dammy.


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## Nemo

Thanks JaVa


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@daveb, well there is a grind. It even covers circa 1/4th of the blade face!


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## JBroida

daddy yo yo said:


> So, there seems to be consensus that the Gesshin Ginga plays in the laser category. Both, western and wa?
> 
> And if so, is the Misono UX10 also a laser? I am trying to compare Gesshin Ginga western stainless with UX10... Thickness above heel is identical...



When you hold them in hand, the difference in thickness is immediately clear, with the ginga being thinner by a noticeable amount... both western and wa


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## TheCaptain

A Gesshin Ginga has been on my radar for some time. I'm holding out for a W#2 for when those come back in stock

...

BUT - would love some comparison on how they differ from the stainless currently in stock. Probably my amateur stone skills but I love how sharp I can get White #2.


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## JBroida

TheCaptain said:


> A Gesshin Ginga has been on my radar for some time. I'm holding out for a W#2 for when those come back in stock
> 
> ...
> 
> BUT - would love some comparison on how they differ from the stainless currently in stock. Probably my amateur stone skills but I love how sharp I can get White #2.



Grind is the same as is in-hand feeling... the white 2 sharpens a bit more easily, and gets ever so slightly sharper, while the stainless has better toughness, is easier to care for, and has similar edge retention.


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## daddy yo yo

JBroida said:


> Grind is the same as is in-hand feeling... the white 2 sharpens a bit more easily, and gets ever so slightly sharper, while the stainless has better toughness, is easier to care for, and has similar edge retention.



Curious to get my hands on the stainless which is on the way! Although I am hesitant towards lasers I couldn't help but give it another try!


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## ThEoRy

cyberbaton said:


> I purchased wa r2 few weeks ago from mm and it's definitely not a laser. I think the concept of his grinds has changed over the years.



Basically 2mm at the spine near the handle.







Choil shot.






Cuts like a laser as well. This knife was made by Shigeki about 4 1/2 years ago.


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## Talim

ThEoRy said:


> Basically 2mm at the spine near the handle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Choil shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cuts like a laser as well. This knife was made by Shigeki about 4 1/2 years ago.



Yeah the new ones, at least the ones from metalmaster, are not lasers anymore. The one I got is thicker than my B2.


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## labor of love

Also, sometimes a 210mm and a 240mm gyuto in the same line can be dramatically different in size. Never used Tanaka r2 though.


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## ThEoRy

Talim said:


> Yeah the new ones, at least the ones from metalmaster, are not lasers anymore. The one I got is thicker than my B2.



Sounds like you got a bum deal. Well that sucks. How does it cut otherwise?


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## Talim

ThEoRy said:


> Sounds like you got a bum deal. Well that sucks. How does it cut otherwise?



That's what I thought at first but it cuts just fine. I have an older wa R2 similar to yours and I might actually prefer using the new one. Also James did mention on his forum about the differences of the new one vs old one http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/33294-Tanaka-R2-ironwood-vs-wa


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

What irks me again an again: The Kiwi 171 proves that 0.9mm is plenty enough spine for a cooking knife if you don't pry cans open with it....yet no one seems to dare doing that in a "real grind" knife? But yeah, cutting behaviour of the kiwi geometry is more "slit punch with a guidance skate" compared to a laser - and there probably is a subtly worse cut quality, given the shoulder above the hollow grind won't displace but split/crush whatever the edge didn't deal with


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## DanHumphrey

khashy said:


> Do you guys consider the monosteel Takayuki Blue2's as laser? the definitely feel 'lasery' to me:
> 
> http://www.knivesandstones.com/sakai-takayuki-aoniko-blue-2-carbon-steel-gyuto-chefs-240mm-9-5/



Wait really? Mine felt like a wedge-monster and I haven't had it out in forever.


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## labor of love

daveb said:


> I've had the Gesshin in 270 and 240, inexplicably sold them. And the Suisin IH in 240. With the Stefan custom handle. That now lives at Tony the tow truck drivers house after my truck was totaled and towed and the rat bastard disappeared it. Next laser I'm going to go with the Tad. Love me some Ginsanko.



What kind of a human being rehandles a suisin IH?


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## ThEoRy

labor of love said:


> What kind of a human being rehandles a suisin IH?



The human in possession of a Stefan handle. That's who!


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## JaVa

Nemo said:


> Did I miss any?



How about the Ikazuchi from JKI?

Why in the world doesn't that come up more often when talking about lasers? Isn't it even more thin than the Ginga? Looking at the pictures at the site it's ridiculously thin behind the edge. It's so attractively priced too @ 200$. 

I hadn't noticed the Ikazuchi before because as much as I like the stuff JKI, the shipping and customs to Finland make a bit too tough financially. On my next trip to US (won't happen in a while) this is a very likely candidate to hitch a ride back to the land of thousand lakes.


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## MastrAndre

Oh...the Ikazuchis are great lasers, very very underestimated.
I own 2 (210 and 240) and they have the best edge retention of all my lasers, for sure!

And I have them all: Ginga, Kono HD2, Kono GS, Sakai Yusuke, Suisin Inox Honyaki, Misono UX10...


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## Nemo

UX 10 is a laser? Wow, I didn't realise.


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## K813zra

Nemo said:


> UX 10 is a laser? Wow, I didn't realise.



Mine sure wasn't. More of a light weight workhorse. Still a good knife.


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## MastrAndre

Mine is has Schanz-Tuning [emoji41] and it's a proper laser


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## MastrAndre

Nemo said:


> UX 10 is a laser? Wow, I didn't realise.



[emoji19][emoji19][emoji19]
How could you realise how my own knife looks?


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## labor of love

MastrAndre said:


> Oh...the Ikazuchis are great lasers, very very underestimated.
> I own 2 (210 and 240) and they have the best edge retention of all my lasers, for sure!
> 
> And I have them all: Ginga, Kono HD2, Kono GS, Sakai Yusuke, Suisin Inox Honyaki, Misono UX10...



You don't have a mizuno though. https://japanesechefsknife.com/prod...-stainless-steel-blade-240mm-to-300mm-3-sizes


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## MastrAndre

labor of love said:


> You don't have a mizuno though. https://japanesechefsknife.com/prod...-stainless-steel-blade-240mm-to-300mm-3-sizes



No I don't
My considerations are based on the lasers I own
(best edge retention of ALL MY lasers)


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## daveb

MastrAndre said:


> And I have them all: Ginga, Kono HD2, Kono GS, Sakai Yusuke, Suisin Inox Honyaki, Misono UX10...



You seem a Tad short.....:cool2:


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## Nemo

MastrAndre said:


> [emoji19][emoji19][emoji19]
> How could you realise how my own knife looks?



I wasn't trying to suggest that it wasn't a laser, I was merely saying that I hadn't realised that it was. I have never handled a UX10, let alone your UX10, so I of course could not know one way or the other.

I'm sorry if it came across that I was questioning your post. That was certainly not my intention.


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## K813zra

daveb said:


> You seem a Tad short.....:cool2:



:rofl2:


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## tienowen

I would add the Kono Ginsanko on the list, the knife was thin similar to Suisin IH. I just regret not order 270mm instead get 240mm.
Besides that how about the Sukenari ZDP steel, anyone using the knife compares to the laser, I think maybe the next gyuto to order if I need to buy another knife.


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## Keith Sinclair

MastrAndre said:


> Oh...the Ikazuchis are great lasers, very very underestimated.
> I own 2 (210 and 240) and they have the best edge retention of all my lasers, for sure!
> 
> And I have them all: Ginga, Kono HD2, Kono GS, Sakai Yusuke, Suisin Inox Honyaki, Misono UX10...



Yes the Sakai Yusuke special thin white steel was one of my favorite lasers. I like the mono steel Sakai and Stainless Ginga for thin knives. I sharpened, put finish on handle & saya of Ikazuchi 210 & 240. I can't believe how thin those san mai AS core blades are. The 240 has a wild clad line. You can let it patina naturally or etch it.


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## Stnakamu

Would most takedas be considered lasers?


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## Dhoff

Welcome mister Stnakamu :=)

A bit of a humor please don't take it the wrong way:

You are a necromancer?


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## DisconnectedAG

Nemo said:


> I have used some knives that are very thin behind the edge but I don't think I've ever used a true laser. Not sure if I need to scratch that itch or not.
> 
> How are lasers defined (is it by weight or is it just a case of "you'll know it when you see it"?)
> 
> From my reading, the list of knives that I would recognise as lasers is:
> Suisin IH
> Gesshin Ginga
> Sakai Yusuke
> Kono HD/HD2 (?no longer available)
> Kono GS/ GS+
> FRKZ Swedish
> ?Red handle Takamura Pro.
> 
> Did I miss any? Did I include any that I shouldn't have?
> 
> Any opinions about the lasers that you have used (especially sharpenability, edge retention and cutting performance)?


You missed Makoto Kurosaki R2 series. Excellent laser performers for a great price that should definitely be on this list.


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## Nemo

Yep, second life for this thread! Strong conjuration magic going on here.

In the 2 plus years since I started this thread, I have bought a Kurosaki Shizuku R2, which is almost a laser. It's laser thin at the edge but a little thicker at the spine than most lasers. This makes it more robust feeling and gives better food release but a little more wedging in tall foods. I personally prefer the thicker spined thin knives (Akebono, Shizuku, Kippington Laser).


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## GorillaGrunt

I tried having a whole arsenal of lasers, but I ended up letting all the classical lasers go while keeping the Shibata Kashima, which I felt outperformed the others (Tadatsuna, Suisin IH, and I forget which other but not a Ginga) as well as the Masamoto KS its profile is based on. I like the Tanaka and Akebono, as well as Takamura Pro in the category described by Nemo above. Haven’t tried a laser by a smith such as Kippington though.


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## Stnakamu

Dhoff said:


> Welcome mister Stnakamu :=)
> 
> A bit of a humor please don't take it the wrong way:
> 
> You are a necromancer?


I was told I can be anything I want to. LOL


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