# About the Rika 5K & Suehiros more generally...



## Knife2meatu (Dec 21, 2018)

TLDR: Is there supposed to be a trick to getting a Rika 5k muddy? And is Suehiro really into marketing one 5k product under several names?

I have a stone I bought as being "a Rika in everything but name" -- so, supposedly, basically the same 5k Suehiro; but unbranded, unstamped and without the nice box. I like it well enough in use, and would be satisfied that it has all the nice properties which glowing remarks about the Rika made me expect; except for one nagging thing:

A burrfection video wherein he experiments with permasoaking his stone and finds that it forms a thick mud; which he says never to have previously seen. (link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=odApnWSnugU&feature=youtu.be&t=506). However, I can't seem to replicate this with my stone.

I wonder if there's some first-hand experience of using an official Rika 5k-- as to whether or not Ryky's muddy accident was representative.

It's worth mentioning a suggestive blurb, likely related with my dilemma, from the ToolsfromJapan website, under the 'Cerax #5000' description: "Note: this seems to be almost identical to the Suehiro 'Rika', which is well liked and well known. There is a good reason for this..." (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...oduct_info&cPath=335_404_572&products_id=2236) -- also, the pictured Cerax 5050 does look identical to the 5K Suehiro I have.

I'm inferring from Stu's comment that the 2 different Suehiro products, Cerax & Rika, are actually the same basic stone; and assuming that's the case, my own stone can just as easily be another rebranding of Suehiro's well-liked venerable 5k. But, if that's indeed the case, and my stone is actually just a Rika is simpler packaging -- then, where's my mud?


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## HRC_64 (Dec 21, 2018)

not sure ...two stones from the same company look alike? OK
are they the same? probably not...

look at shapton m24 vs professiona
look at naniwa chosera vs professional vs glass kramer stones

alot of these are very close to the same but slightly different density/composition/binder makeups etc.

you're not gonna prove your stone is a Rika or not by this test,
also Stus cerax 5k is more expensive than the Rika 5k and the same price esseintiall as Rika 5k+cerax 1K
but note that cerax and rika are differnt families of stone (ceramic, gen2 and traditonal, gen1)

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...t_info&cPath=335_405_583_585&products_id=2055


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## Knife2meatu (Dec 21, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> [...] two stones from the same company look alike
> are they the same? probably not... [...] look at naniwa chosera vs professional... [...]


Are you sure the Professionals aren't just thinner Choseras? The only one I have in both lines is the 400, admittedly, but I'd have a damned hard time telling them apart.



> look at naniwa chosera vs professional vs glass kramer stones
> 
> alot of these are very close to the same but slightly different density/composition/binder makeups etc.


The Kramer stones are actually physically different from the others, though. So, even if it's just color and glass base, you actually can tell them apart quite easily. Let's say they actually were just the same exact formula as Cho/Pro 400/1000/3000/5000/10000 -- then we'd suppose they'd behave exactly the same in use, despite being part of different product lines, but you can still easily distinguish them as different stones by virtue of their looking different.

The 3 Suehiro stones I'm talking about here look identical. And while I'll grant you that they could have "slightly different density/composition/binder makeups etc." as you say, you'll have to grant me that my case is at least different than your examples, insofar as yours don't actually look identical, do they? I mean not only color, but also size and base.

I haven't used the previous gen Shaptons M24, but just based on thickness alone, you know that one can't be confused with a Pro/Kuromaku. And then there's the bases. They're clearly somewhat distinct products, let alone the more important differences in "density/composition/binder makeups etc."



> also Stus cerax 5k is more expensive than the Rika 5k and the same price esseintiall as Rika 5k+cerax 1K


Well, price is a pretty meaningless distinction, all things considered. If a manufacturer can sell a stone for $100 by calling it something new and putting it in a different colored box, instead of $50 as he did before, no doubt they'll do so happily -- and conversely some savvy, not to say cheap, consumers will happily seek out bargains where a $100 stone is perhaps branded differently and sold for only $50. The Shapton Pro/Korumaku would seem to be a quite good example of this...

I could easily imagine Suehiro wanting to position their Cerax line as a deluxe product commanding higher prices, hence Stu must also charge more. This is why I brought up the quote:* "seems to be almost identical to the Suehiro 'Rika', which is well liked and well known. There is a good reason for this..." *-- this, to me, seems like he's saying, "hey, why don't you _pick the cheaper Rika over there... _it's _almost identical_ (wink)..._there's a good reason for this... _(nudge)."



> but note that cerax and rika are differnt families of stone (ceramic, gen2 and traditonal, gen1)


As far as I know, both the Cerax and Rika are alumina ceramic abrasives in a vitrified bond. Tell me precisely what you think is more "traditional" about the Rika vs the Cerax, and we can come back to this. Generations could be marketing generations for all I know; simply calling things gen1, 2, 3, gen n+1 doesn't necessarily denote actual technological iteration.



> you're not gonna prove your stone is a Rika or not by this test,


In this, you are quite right. I will continue to have the nagging doubt, but perhaps I can avoid buying a Rika only to risk finding out that A) They are indeed the same, and similarly stubborn about muddying up; B) I now have two of the same stone; C) That I just overpaid for another 5K stone I particularly didn't need, because of some extra printing on top and a fancy, shiny box....

However. If I heard from someone that their Rika has never muddied up like that either -- that would be a point towards my stone being _like _a Rika. If I hear that "yeah, Rikas are super muddy don't ya know." -- well, in that case it would be a point towards my stone _not being like_ a Rika.

It should be said that before possibly over-spending on a branded Rika, I will probably experiment more with different steels and pressures...


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## HRC_64 (Dec 21, 2018)

AFAIK cerax is a meant to be "ceramic" stone (like cho - sera = best ceramic) they are 
distinct from shuehiro traditonal and naniwa traditonal line stones, respectively.

The ceramic/chosera stones are designed to cut stainless steels, and PM steels,
that is why they as a family are called "2nd generation", the original gen 1
...was designed mostly to cut simple carbon steels...and replace jnats

That is why it matters really much more for 1K and below grits like 500/300 etc.
where speed is much more critical than 5k or 8k

unless maybe dealing with tools/chisels etc.


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## inferno (Dec 21, 2018)

to be honest both the cerax/new cerax and "traditional" lines aka rika is the suehiro sh1t lines of stones. 

The good lines are the Gokumyo line, and most of these are either high grit like 10-20k or low grit like 500-1500. or double sided. and no one serious want a double sided stone. 

gokumyo is a process they use. very dense and water repellant. this is their best stones.

https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/gokumyo/
(drop down menu here on all "classes")

gokumyo gokumyo is the 10/15/20k supreme line. the best they can do. 

gokumyo debado is a dualgrit stone. slightly oversized. only one side is "gokumyo" quality the low grit one is "regular" quality.

gokumyo debado ryu line is also a dualgrit one, one side is gok and one regular. oversized stone.

gokumyo taiga line. now were fukn talking. taiga is a gokumyo processed stone that is 600/1k/1200/1500 and also happens to be very expensive for low grit stones! I bet these are the sh1t though. I might get all of them. or the 600 and the 1k.

then we have gokumyo ryu line which seems to be a gokumyo process stone and a regular stone of the exact same grit glued together. 600-1500jis. non oversized.

YOU WILL NOT FIND gokumyo FROM LIKE 400 TO 20K. its some low grit ones 600-1500. then its only double grit ones from 1500 to 6-8k or so and then its the supreme line from 10k to 20k. the rest are doubles. or extra large.

------------------------
DUAL STONE line

the only interesting here is the dual stone size 1 aka regular stone size.
dual stone refers to the user both being able to use oil and water on the same stone (why anyone would opt to use oil on any stone that will work good with water is a mystery i dont understand but thats just me).

the dual stones are thin, 10mm like glass stones, and i would guess these are the direct competitor to the glass stones. harder, better, faster, no soak and so on. they are just 10 years late. 

https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/dualstone2/dualstone_type1/

the size 1 duals are available as 8/6/1,5/1k/600 and thats it. and they are not really dual at all. dual idiocracy at most.
----------------------------------

then we have the debado line. and there is only on interesting line of stone there. the SNE or S line

https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/debadoseries/debado_sne/

and these are regular fired but slow wearing splash and go stones. available as 8/4/2/1,2/0,8/0,4k 

the rest are the crap stones imo. and why would you want these???

a good combo would be 

debado 400, gokumyo taiga 1200, dual stone size 1 - 6000, then a gokumyo gokumyo 10/15/20k imo


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## inferno (Dec 21, 2018)

and while you are reading this for the third time, second guessing me then finding out i'm right. i have 2 secret words: *shapton glass*. you can get any get any grit you want and of the best quality they make. and its available world wide. and its cheap. 

here is some french culture for you. remember to wear a yellow vest.


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## Knife2meatu (Dec 21, 2018)

Yeah, I have their Gokumyo 20K and it is indeed very hard and very fine -- pretty expensive too. I'm curious about their Debado 220 splash-&-go, I can't even tell if there's a difference between the LD-21 and the MD-20, besides size -- Suehiro's product line is very confusing -- Have you ever tried either of those 220s?

By the way, I think you have this wrong:


> gokumyo debado is a dualgrit stone. slightly oversized. only one side is "gokumyo" quality the low grit one is "regular" quality.


https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/debadoseries/
I think the stones you're thinking of, Suehiro calls their "Dual-Stones", no Debado...
https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/dualstone2/

Regardless...



inferno said:


> to be honest both the cerax/new cerax and "traditional" lines aka rika is the suehiro sh1t lines of stones. [...]



Yeah, I know that Suehiro makes many less expensive, more traditional stones in their 'Gyomu' line (https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/gyomu/), and the lower grits (sub-1200) are typically cheaper, larger, softer, and look like traditional Kings or Naniwas...

But this leads us right back to my OP -- You yourself say that *"cerax/new cerax and "traditional" lines aka rika is the suehiro sh1t lines of stones." *-- fine. So are you saying that the Rika 5K, the Cerax 5k as seen on the ToolsfromJapan site (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...oduct_info&cPath=335_404_572&products_id=2236), and the identical looking, Japanese market-only stone I have, are presumably the same "****" stone?

And more importantly, have you used the 'official' Rika 5K and found it to be muddy like in the video I linked?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=odApnWSnugU&feature=youtu.be&t=506


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## inferno (Dec 21, 2018)

why do you even want this stone?? even the "real" rika 5k is rumored to be a 3k. if you want the good suehiros get the good ones i posted above. they only cost like 2-300% more than the equivalent glass stone. so either get 3 glass stones or one good suehiro. it does not get any better than the glass (imo). but hey its not my money.


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## Knife2meatu (Dec 21, 2018)

I already own the 'mystery' stone; and it's alright enough, frankly.

As to "why"?... I guess it's because the Rika gained a lot of positive reputation in the past and after reading about how nice it was, I was tempted to try it. Then, when I came across the opportunity to try it -- or another stone which was said to be "the same, but without the printing, fancier box, and for half the money -- so I bought it; I used it; it's alright. I kinda like my permasoaking setup, and it was an interesting addition. Whatever, I'm sure you don't mind people buying sharpening stones, do you?

Anyway. At some point I saw the burrfection video and working the stone muddy like that was interesting -- by the way, if what I have _is indeed_ just like a proper Rika 5k, I can say that it isn't quite as simple as just permasoaking it to get it to muddy up easily like that -- and maybe the reputation it has for producing a lower-than-expected-for-5k polish is down to needing to work the mud.

So, that's why the main point of my posts is pretty much just finding out if there's some experience of Rikas getting muddy like Ryky's did there... Really, knowing if my stone is just an unbranded Rika or not, is secondary. The important thing is trying to find out why it isn't muddying up. I've already tried a good number of approaches trying to replicate the result for the video, with no luck, but considerable wasted stone, steel, and time.


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## HRC_64 (Dec 22, 2018)

Knife2meatu said:


> Rika gained a lot of positive reputation in the past and after reading about how nice it was, I was tempted to try it. Then, when I came across the opportunity to try it -- or another stone which was said to be "the same, but without the printing, fancier box, and for half the money... I bought it



1) The obvious answer is you're stone isn't a Rika ... 
2) Rika is JDM ~$35+EMS stone and trying to save money on this seems to be a fools errand.


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## Knife2meatu (Dec 22, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> 1) The obvious answer is you're stone isn't a Rika ...
> 2) Rika is JDM ~$35+EMS stone and trying to save money on this seems to be a fools errand.


I noticed this on the Suehiro Rika website: *"For this product, we no longer print the label directly on the surface of the stone.
It now comes with a label made of cellophane film."* (https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/gyomu/5000/) -- Which now means that my Stone not only looks identical to the Rika, but the Rika doesn't even come with the printing anymore which differentiated it in the first place.

So I'm thinking if anything is obvious, it's that it is the same stone -- I really don't know what you're talking about. _And you've still never said if your Rika gets muddy like the video I linked_ -- www.youtube.com/watch?v=odApnWSnugU&feature=youtu.be&t=506 -- which is pretty damned pertinent to this whole post.

I'm playing with the stone and I think the trick may be water control and letting the stone dry more than I usually do, but I can't quite replicate it. But if that's the case, I find it odd that Ryky would only have seen this after accidentally soaking his stone overnight.

And as for the price of the stone -- listen, I got mine for less than that, shipped, in CAD. So it has all the trappings of a fine deal.


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## JBroida (Dec 22, 2018)

have you guys ever thought of just e-mailing suehiro to ask instead of making all kinds of crazy comments online? I feel like you could get a pretty direct answer that would clear up quite a bit of this. For example, the rika is not a 3k stone... they use JIS graded 5k abrasives. Its pretty clear. Also, the rika is white alumina, while the cerax is a mix of white alumina and silicon carbide. Also, presenting comments like "such and such is their s**t line of stones" or "this is the best series they make" as fact is problematic for forums where these comments are read by people with no understanding of the context or the person's background or experience.


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## deleon (Dec 22, 2018)

JBroida said:


> have you guys ever thought of just e-mailing suehiro to ask instead of making all kinds of crazy comments online? I feel like you could get a pretty direct answer that would clear up quite a bit of this. For example, the rika is not a 3k stone... they use JIS graded 5k abrasives. Its pretty clear. Also, the rika is white alumina, while the cerax is a mix of white alumina and silicon carbide. Also, presenting comments like "such and such is their s**t line of stones" or "this is the best series they make" as fact is problematic for forums where these comments are read by people with no understanding of the context or the person's background or experience.


Bringing sanity back to an otherwise twisted world, nice job Jon!


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## Grunt173 (Dec 22, 2018)

Yep,I was shocked when I read post #11. I don't even have a dog in this fight but his form of speech is truly uncalled for.


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## Knife2meatu (Dec 22, 2018)

Grunt173 said:


> Yep,I was shocked when I read post #11. I don't even have a dog in this fight but his form of speech is truly uncalled for.



Is it though? I thought I was pretty reasonable, all things considered.

All I've been trying to talk about is how muddy the Rika 5k is, or supposed to be, in people's opinions.

And if, perhaps, 3 5k Suehiro products -- all 3 of which look exactly the same, all three of which would seem to be WA #5000 abrasives in vitrified bonds -- could be the same basic stone.

I didn't expect to it to get this far off topic, frankly.


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## Knife2meatu (Dec 22, 2018)

JBroida said:


> [...] they use JIS graded 5k abrasives. Its pretty clear. Also, the rika is white alumina, while the cerax is a mix of white alumina and silicon carbide. [...]



I very much want to defer to your knowledge on this, although this is the very first time I've read _anything _about Cerax having silicon carbide -- but whatever. Suehiro's site lists _every _other Cerax as being WA; _only _the 5050 says WA/C. And, the Cerax packaging itself also only mentions WA#5000.

I don't really mean to argue, but the 5000 Cerax sticking out like a sore thumb from the rest of the line-up with regards to the abrasive is odd, no? and wouldn't it be in keeping with Suehiro's usual packaging to mention something about WA/C on the Cerax 5050 box if that was actually the case, and not WA#5000, like the Rika and my stone?





https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/5050.jpg


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## deleon (Dec 22, 2018)

I can't definitively answer your original question but can only share my own personal experience. I have two SR 5K stones and they been underwater for months (except when in use of course). I have never seen the mud Ryky is showing in his video, but then again I don't put much stock in any of his videos, just me, I believe there are much better and reliable sources out there. But, my short answer for you, no, my rikas do not mud up like that.


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## Knife2meatu (Dec 22, 2018)

deleon said:


> I can't definitively answer your original question but can only share my own personal experience. I have two SR 5K stones and they been underwater for months (except when in use of course). I have never seen the mud Ryky is showing in his video [...]. But, my short answer for you, no, my rikas do not mud up like that.



Hey, thanks for the help!

About Ryky -- I'll just say that even if we wisely take his personal critique with a requisite wallop of salt, the video itself is pretty reliable evidence of the mud formation.

Although to be fair, I don't quite understand "unboxing videos" being _a thing, _either; so maybe I'm just not the target audience for lots of his videos... That said, I was watching the video where he shows off the pile of swag he received from Suehiro last year; and an odd coincidence, considering this thread, made me smile; watch 20 seconds of this: youtu.be/SO2OgMKVePE?t=698, and tell me that his first instinctive comment, upon opening the box isn't funny, given the situation.

Best I can tell, he never did make that comparison video... In fact, one of the top comments on that unboxing extravaganza video suggests that a good place to start with all his new Suehiro stones would be comparing the 5K & 6K stones from both lines he received there; so the Rika & Shiramine Vs the Cerax's -- Ryky does actually reply that it would indeed be a good idea. Best I can tell, there's no such video, either. Shame too. I'd be interested in that.


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## JBroida (Dec 22, 2018)

For what its worth, i have a lot of experience with the rika and have had super thick mud like that before as well... in fact, it is pretty consistently my experience with that stone and especially single bevel or wide bevel knives.

(a super old video from me... not advocating the kind of sharpening i did there, but you can see how the rika works on that)


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## Knife2meatu (Dec 22, 2018)

JBroida said:


> For what its worth, i have a lot of experience with the rika and have had super thick mud like that before as well... in fact, it is pretty consistently my experience with that stone and especially single bevel or wide bevel knives.
> [snip]


Thanks so much for the guidance. I don't mean just this about the Rika -- your videos about sharpening are virtually the best I've found online. Cheers!

It's a crying shame that I'm not able to get that video to work, 
lol


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## JBroida (Dec 22, 2018)

I might have it disabled... let me check tomorrow when I get back to work and see


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## Grunt173 (Dec 23, 2018)

I just watched Ryky's video again,seen it back a long time ago. So far my Rika 5k has never mudded up like that but then I have only soaked it over night a few times but usually I just soak it for about 30 minutes or so. Another thing I noticed,Ryky really bears down on his pressure when sharpening.I can almost see the walls shake.I don't ever use that much pressure.That could be why I am not creating that much mud.


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## Garm (Dec 23, 2018)

I can get my Rika to act in a similar manner if I want/need, but I rarely do.
Watching his video you can see his water management changing from the start towards the end. This is key.
Contact area is another point. His sharpening angle is what most would call a "thinning" angle, and you can see the stone working about a cm up from the edge in some places. 
Other factors like type of steel, amount of pressure, evenness of pressure, relaxation vs tension in the hand holding the knife etc. can all affect mud development on different stones. 

On a side note, I wouldn't listen to people calling Suehiro traditional and Cerax lines sh1t stones. They are very different from Shaptons, both in how they feel and how they work.


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## Dave Martell (Dec 25, 2018)

I've found that I get a boat load of mud from the Rika when working wide bevels and that's even when the stone is short soaked. For tiny bevel sharpening I see an even ratio of swarf and mud.


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## AT5760 (May 10, 2019)

Bumping the most recent Rika thread I could find. Mine just came in the mail today. Is it ok to permasoak? I have plenty of toilet tank room. 

I figure if I’m going to soak at all, I’d rather permasoak than worry about drying rates.


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## labor of love (May 10, 2019)

Permasoak the rika! It’s a great stone too.


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## Knife2meatu (May 10, 2019)

By all means, permasoak. Great stone -- assuming it actually is the same stone as the 5000-AS I have, otherwise I couldn't speak to the exact stone from experience -- but I've had a bunch of vitrified-bond Suehiros soaking for going on a year or more, and they love the water.

That said, rereading the previously last post of the thread, from Dave Martell, I have to say that my stone acts pretty much exactly like his description: good amount of mud on large areas, mainly swarf at other times -- used it just yesterday as the 3rd stone of a quick 320/1k/5k progression which repeatedly took a chisel I was abusing from chip removal to sharp.

@AT5760 What's the product # on your personal stone? Would you mind posting a picture of the stone and box? I recently saw a thread with someone talking about their "Rika" but the picture they posted of the packaging was exactly like my own stone -- the same one I started this thread about.


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## AT5760 (May 10, 2019)

Sure. Will share pics tomorrow.


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## Grunt173 (May 11, 2019)

Yes,can be permasoaked.It is a vetrified bonded stone.Even a 5 or 10 minute soak does mine well.


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## AT5760 (May 11, 2019)

@Knife2meatu, Here are photos of the box and the plastic wrap that was around the stone. It is stamped "1904." Note that my stone is one that came with a base.


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## Knife2meatu (May 11, 2019)

Cheers!


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## Knife2meatu (May 11, 2019)

Glancing over the this thread, I remember it was suggested I just email Suehiro -- turned out they didn't care to answer this query, because it's been several months, and I never did receive a response.


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## JBroida (May 11, 2019)

AT5760 said:


> @Knife2meatu, Here are photos of the box and the plastic wrap that was around the stone. It is stamped "1904." Note that my stone is one that came with a base. View attachment 52963
> View attachment 52964


did they change the color recently? First one i've seen in that color


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## bahamaroot (May 11, 2019)

JBroida said:


> did they change the color recently? First one i've seen in that color


I don't see a stone. Just a box and a plastic base/box similar to a Shapton Pro base/box.


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## JBroida (May 12, 2019)

thats what i get for looking at this on my cell phone earlier


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## Michi (May 12, 2019)

JBroida said:


> thats what i get for looking at this on my cell phone earlier


 Time to get that prescription for your glasses adjusted? Or is it just a matter of using the glasses?


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## Barclid (May 12, 2019)

https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/gyomu/仕上砥石　理華　5000-dn（台なし）/

Kanji all check out. 9/10 times when someone is complaining about a stone performing in a different manner to others' experience, it's due to different steels/sharpening pressure/surface area. I have the Rika as well and with my typical sharpening pressure and angle (thinning every time) it muds up reliably on all but mono-steel highly abrasion resistant knives.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 12, 2019)

Cherry Japanese Imports here has been carrying Masamoto carbon gyutos for at least as far back as 1982 when I bought my first Masa. Bought my large King stones from them too. When got my first Yanagiba went to Cherry and got a polishing stone. It was in a Masamoto box mounted on a wooden base. It worked well sharpening my fish knives. The guy who sold me my second yanagiba was a sushi chef who later started A-Frames Tokyo. He used the Kitayama 8K so I switched to that stone.

Later when started reading knife forums the Bester 1200 & the Rika 5k were popular so I bought both of them. The Rika 5K was the exact same stone as the Masamoto. Same wood base lite grey even kanji on the stone. The box for the Rika was different than the Masamoto, had the green banner on it with the red sun like the one posted on this thread. I believe it is the same stone just with a plastic base now instead of wood. They were popular for a reason it is a pleasing stone to sharpen on.


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## Ivan Hersh (May 12, 2019)

The real test of any stone is the results it gives in sharping, if the stone is getting your blade sharp it's a good stone.


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## AT5760 (May 12, 2019)

I used the Rika for the first time yesterday and touched up the edge on my new Nihei. I have a small sample size, but holy cow I like this stone. It felt so .... soft? smooth? Not quite sure how to describe it. But it felt easy to use and gave great feedback. Soaked it overnight first and plan to permasoak. It did load up a couple of times, and a few spritzes of water solved that right away.


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## Ivan Hersh (May 12, 2019)

AT5760 said:


> I used the Rika for the first time yesterday and touched up the edge on my new Nihei. I have a small sample size, but holy cow I like this stone. It felt so .... soft? smooth? Not quite sure how to describe it. But it felt easy to use and gave great feedback. Soaked it overnight first and plan to permasoak. It did load up a couple of times, and a few spritzes of water solved that right away.


My question to you is did the Rika stone remove metal from your blade, and if so did you feel it was removing the metal in a positive manner in obtaining the level of sharping you felt needed?

Or did it just grind off metal from your knifes blade, without getting the blade sharp or even close to being sharp.


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## AT5760 (May 12, 2019)

@Ivan Hersh, the short answer is yes. The stone removes metal and my knife was sharper than it was when I started. That said, I'm really new to sharpening so others may be able to offer more fulsome feedback on how the Rika compares to other stones and on what steel it works best. 

I am a home cook and I'm not restoring/making knives, so speed isn't much of a concern for me. "Feedback" matters more to me because I'm still figuring out what I am doing. I took my time, focused on technique, and ended up with a knife that was sharper than I started. So it met my expectations and is really reasonably priced.


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## Ivan Hersh (May 12, 2019)

AT5760 I am not much of a cook just someone learning about the process of using water stones to sharpen Chef type knives, and as we both know there are a lot of water stones out there, and there are many Chef knives with many types of blade steels.
So i am always happy to read about how different the stones people are using are doing for their sharping needs.

And i thank you and the other forum members for taking the time to post their comments.

I might add it looks like the Rika #5000 and the Cerax #5000 might be about the exact same stone at amazon, and the rika is $10 dollars US less.


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## chinacats (May 12, 2019)

Ivan Hersh said:


> The real test of any stone is the results it gives in sharpening, if the stone is getting your blade sharp it's a good stone.



I hear what you're saying but i would mention 2 thoughts:

1) you can get a knife very sharp using Arkansas oilstones...problem for many though is that it takes so many strokes that you wind up w more variance and can be more difficult to get a crisp edge.

2) if you've seen MC's video sharpening using a cinderblock and cardboard...i guess anything will work depending on your skillset.

My personal argument would be that while both methods yield sharp knives, neither is ideal Japanese waterstones themselves can yield a wide range of results, feedback, mess, etc. and the difference between acceptable, good and outstanding, is huge.

Final point is that what you save buying your 5k rika vs a nicer stone is rather lost after a few sharpenings...imo this range (finisher for many) is a good place to splurge a bit as it's likely the most often used stone in your lineup.


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## Knife2meatu (May 12, 2019)

Ivan Hersh said:


> I might add it looks like the Rika #5000 and the Cerax #5000 might be about the exact same stone at amazon, and the rika is $10 dollars US less.



I would invite you to go through the trouble of trying both out before declaring them to be the same stone -- I started this thread with the same hypothesis, and nothing so far has gone in the direction of confirming it.

edit: or definitely confirming it, at any rate. I'm starting to kick myself for not picking up Cerax 5050 on sale when I had a chance.


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## Ivan Hersh (May 12, 2019)

The Naniwa 800 and 2000 are my today go to stones.


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## bahamaroot (May 12, 2019)

Ivan Hersh said:


> The Naniwa 800 and 2000 are my today go to stones.


Several different series of stones made by Naniwa, you should be more specific.


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## labor of love (May 13, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Several different series of stones made by Naniwa, you should be more specific.


Or you could just shut your mouth.


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## panda (May 13, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Or you could just shut your mouth.


LMAO


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## Matus (May 13, 2019)

Or we could just all be nicer to each other and keep the thread on topic instead


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## Ivan Hersh (May 13, 2019)

Here is an old unknown stone, it seems very hard and is really heavy the color looks close to some of the stones we have been discussing.


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## bahamaroot (May 13, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Or you could just shut your mouth.


My mouth is shut when I type.


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## MashMaster (Feb 20, 2021)

inferno said:


> to be honest both the cerax/new cerax and "traditional" lines aka rika is the suehiro sh1t lines of stones.
> 
> The good lines are the Gokumyo line, and most of these are either high grit like 10-20k or low grit like 500-1500. or double sided. and no one serious want a double sided stone.
> 
> ...


I have tried too summarise there very confusing range as follows:

*GOKUMYO PROCESSED STONES LINEUP*
Gokumyo Taiga 205x73x10-13mm just fired stone on a plastic looking base
#600
#1000
#1200
#1500

Gokumyo Gokumyo 205×73×19~21mm $$$$ 
#10000
#15000
#20000

Ryu/ Debado Combo 225×90×5-6mm
#6000 (Debado #4000)
#2000 (Debado #1000)

Ryu combination Gokumyo/soaking stone 205×73×4～5／20～22mm same grit on both not sure if other side is water stone or Debado
#600
#1000
#1200
#1500

GS Gokumyo 205×72×10mm no base
#240
#300
#600
#1000 
#1500

Gokumyo Processed Stones Progression
#240 GS 
#300 GS 
#600 GS/Taiga/Ryu
#1000 GS/Taiga/Ryu
#1200 Taiga/Ryu
#1500 GS/Taiga/Ryu
#2000 Debado Ryu
#6000 Debado Ryu
#10000 Gokumyo
#15000 Gokumyo
#20000 Gokumyo

Big Jump in practical terms #2000 to #6000?

*DEBADO LINE

MD *225mmx90mm (big stones)
#200
#1000
#4000

LD professional 206×73×23mm
#180 (looks like the #200 MD)
#1000
#4000

SNE 205×73×23mm (plastic base holder)
#320
#600
#1000
#1500
#3000
#6000

Debado Splash and go Stone Progression
#180/#200 maybe same stone a typo on their website product numbers no relation to grit
#320 SNE
#600 SNE
#1000 SNE/LD/MD
#1500 SNE
#3000 SNE
#4000 MD
#6000 SNE

Anyone have feedback on gokumyo line sub 10000 grit, higher grits are premium stones popular with straight razor.

Any feedback regarding the Debado Stones.

Look personally I have chosera but I have had it with cracking, dont immerse done dry too fast and dont live anywhere where the humidity drops too much and swings too much during the year. I just hate paying chosera pricing for a good chance a cracked stone at some time in the future. I have looked at Kramer versions, no accounts on the net of them cracking but so few sold who knows. but maybe mounting chosera/pros to glass plates might help. Needless to say I been burned by #3000, #5000 on crack in half #10000 spider cracks.


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## ModRQC (Feb 20, 2021)

Just out of curiosity, how much time did it get either of your NPs to get there?



MashMaster said:


> I have tried too summarise there very confusing range as follows:
> 
> *GOKUMYO PROCESSED STONES LINEUP*
> Gokumyo Taiga 205x73x10-13mm just fired stone on a plastic looking base
> ...


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## MashMaster (Feb 20, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Just out of curiosity, how much time did it get either of your NPs to get there?


The Chosera 10K was the first to develop very fine spider web cracking, it took a few years, it did then develop complete cracks, the 5k a couple months later one just developed a crack right down the one end. Too much water used, drying too fast, not drying enough the list goes on. I love the chosera range but I expect to use the stone until wears out or becomes too thin then cracks, both probably had less than a few mm off original thickness. They are expensive to start with but seriously I want my next set to be a more long term investment.


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## ModRQC (Feb 20, 2021)

Choseras seem more inclined than the newer NPs to this, but still reports of both lines are relatively common. Can't help you with that, except that overall you might experience more dryness than we get over here with climate in Australia, then perhaps @JBroida trick to have them dry inside a damp towel would help.

On the other hand, if you want NPs like experience with stones I'm inclined to think will work well either with your climate or with permasoaking, depending on the case, I'd say a mix of Cerax, SPs and Imanishi/Bester might do the trick. Cerax 700 for NP400 - would think you can permasoak it but I don't permasoak so not to be relied on for this. Imanishi 1200 for NP800 - well it's not the same, but resulting edge vs time is a better report yet, and it's very comfy to use, without being especially dishy, if somewhat softer. SP2K just because everyone should have one, and it has a somewhat NP feeling to it and is magical with stropping to deburr or to clean and revive an edge. Then Imanishi 4K replaces NP3K well. It's a relatively sparse experience, but would make for a tremendous kit not at all so far of NPs progression.

Out of my head. 

Edit: as an add-on, Cerax #700 and Imanishi 1200 are nice towards a kasumi. Others aren't so good polishers with kasumi in mind, but SP2K - Imanishi 4K work towards a mirror polish, probably easily too from Imanishi 1200 pattern. For Kasumi at least another finer stone is needed, but towards a working edge Cerax 700 - Imanishi 1200 - SP2K - Imanishi 4K will do wonders. I've not delve into more than 5K fines so far, can't help you with further edge/mirror progression but to say I like SP5K edge even better than Imanishi 4K/NP3K, and I believe SP5K is a stone no one gets through or sees going to wrecks.


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## MashMaster (Feb 20, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Choseras seem more inclined than the newer NPs to this, but still reports of both lines are relatively common. Can't help you with that, except that overall you might experience more dryness than we get over here with climate in Australia, then perhaps @JBroida trick to have them dry inside a damp towel would help.
> 
> On the other hand, if you want NPs like experience with stones I'm inclined to think will work well either with your climate or with permasoaking, depending on the case, I'd say a mix of Cerax, SPs and Imanishi/Bester might do the trick. Cerax 700 for NP400 - would think you can permasoak it but I don't permasoak so not to be relied on for this. Imanishi 1200 for NP800 - well it's not the same, but resulting edge vs time is a better report yet, and it's very comfy to use, without being especially dishy, if somewhat softer. SP2K just because everyone should have one, and it has a somewhat NP feeling to it and is magical with stropping to deburr or to clean and revive an edge. Then Imanishi 4K replaces NP3K well. It's a relatively sparse experience, but would make for a tremendous kit not at all so far of NPs progression.
> 
> ...


Looking for spash and go. No soakers..
I was even thinking if the Kramer glass done crack maybe gluing glass backs to a set of Professional Stones might stop cracking. But I fear it will not another forum member reported Kramer Glass also has cracking Hence I was looking at fired stones that are not magnesium water soluble binder but still splash and go


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## big_adventure (Feb 20, 2021)

MashMaster said:


> Any feedback regarding the Debado Stones.



I only have one, a Debado LD-601 (6000).

It works as advertised for me: my yanagiba is razor sharp and very smooth, though be warned that it tends towards a mirror, not kasumi finish. It's very smooth (like I'd expect of a 6K), resistant to dishing, yet very functional. I've used it on Gin 3, AS, ZDP189, SG2 and it cuts on each as well as one could hope. The unattached yet entirely functional rubber base it comes with is a nice touch: it works a treat to hold the stone in place, and it simple to clean and dry, unlike the attached crappy plastic bases on the choseras (my lower grit rotation is all chosera - 400, 1K, 3K). For the price, it strikes me as a very fair deal.

No cracks, but I haven't had it all that long either, and I take care of my gear in general.


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## MashMaster (Feb 20, 2021)

Correction of my repeated and incorrect statement above regarding Magnesium oxychloride (MOC) stones, it is not the fact they are water soluble, although I had read that a number of places. It is the hydration of free MgO causes an increase in its volume, thereby leading to the generation of cracks

Some reading for those who care, anybody that has more than high school chemistry will get more out of it than me.
https://www.jocpr.com/articles/the-application-review-of-magnesium-oxychloride-cement.pdf
Using the Egyptian magnesite for preparation of some types of grinding stones
A nice review of https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acs.chemrev.5b00463
Checkout section 5.2 Chlorocarbonate: Relation to Strength and Durability 

Do if you have low humidity and use the stones dry they should never crack, back in the real world this splash and go should be called a mist and go and like your powder should be kept dry. 

knivesandtools have the most pragmatic advice. ...
For that reason we strongly advise against exposing magnesium bound sharpening stones to (a lot of) water. If you do decide to sharpen using water it is important to properly let the stone dry after use. First you need to rinse off the remaining slurry. Please note: rinse it off with a little bit of water, do not submerge the stone. Afterwards dry the stone with a microfiber cloth. This material is great because it easily absorbs water.
slowly let it dry
Now it is key to let the sharpening stone dry gradually. In this case there is no sense in rushing things. Put the stone on its side to make sure any remaining water can drip off. Make sure the stone won’t dry in the sun or on the heater. After all, the heat of the sun or heater will cause the surface to dry faster than the core of the stone. The tension that is created could cause small cracks in the sharpening layer. We call these cracks hairline cracks. You can reduce the chance of these cracks by wrapping the stone in the microfiber cloth you also used to dry off the stone. As a result the surface and the rest of the stone dry at approximately the same speed.
Is it a bad thing if you do happen do come across hairline cracks? No, it isn’t. A smooth sharpening stone will, of course, look better and water could seep in the cracks which means that it could take a little longer for the stone to dry. But considering the fact that you already need to be patient when it comes to drying the stone, this shouldn’t be an issue. The hairline cracks will – as mentioned before – not affect the sharpening results, which is also something Naniwa confirmed. However, if these cracks do affect your sharpening process you could, of course, always appeal to the guarantee Naniwa hands out with their stones.


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## Towerguy (Feb 20, 2021)

Dave Martell said:


> I've found that I get a boat load of mud from the Rika when working wide bevels and that's even when the stone is short soaked. For tiny bevel sharpening I see an even ratio of swarf and mud.


That is my experience as well.


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## stringer (Feb 20, 2021)

I have a Debado 200. I like the huge real estate. It dishes kind of quick but it's thick and works fast. I get better quicker results with my Crystolon Coarse but sometimes I don't feel like messing with a giant SiC oil slick. The Debado is almost as messy but water is just easier to deal with than oil. It feels pretty hard and gritty at first but releases some mud that will work up pretty thick improving feedback but slowing the speed. This makes it pretty thirsty and so I usually soak for at least an hour before I use it and spray it down frequently. This is the stone I usually go to first after doing major thinning or reprofiling on the belt sander. From here I go to SG 500 for monosteel or King 800 for clad. I haven't tried many other coarse whetstones. I got this stone cheap in an eBay lot and wouldn't have paid full retail for it. But I am not letting it go any time soon.


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## inferno (Feb 20, 2021)

i got exited when i saw dictum now carries the debados with built in bases. the 320 looks like its the coarsest one. i'd really love a coarse stone that stays flat. i was also thinking about trying the 3k and 6k. but the 6k is sold out. and it dont want to import from outside eu since its gets too expensive.

i see suehiro has changed a few series of stones lately. they had some stone series that was described similar to glass stones but those are completely gone now, and the coarsest taiga is gone too. the taigas are super expensive though. i can get 3 other stones for 1 taiga lol. and i kinda doubt they are _that _good.

very little info out on the taigas/gokumyos and i feel its too expensive to just roll the dice on.

a lot of stuff has changed in their lineup lately.


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## MashMaster (Feb 20, 2021)

inferno said:


> i got exited when i saw dictum now carries the debados with built in bases. the 320 looks like its the coarsest one. i'd really love a coarse stone that stays flat. i was also thinking about trying the 3k and 6k. but the 6k is sold out. and it dont want to import from outside eu since its gets too expensive.
> 
> i see suehiro has changed a few series of stones lately. they had some stone series that was described similar to glass stones but those are completely gone now, and the coarsest taiga is gone too. the taigas are super expensive though. i can get 3 other stones for 1 taiga lol. and i kinda doubt they are _that _good.
> 
> ...


There line up is the definition of confusing, there sales department needs the chop, especially there gokumyos line up. Basically its the same stone, either thick and solid $$$$$ 10K and up, but below 10K they when thin, thin backed with a water stone, thin backed with debado, medium on a plastic backing/case. Confusing as hell especially if you looking to put a series of the the same stone together.

Not much info on any of the gokumyos sub 10K grit.


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## inferno (Feb 20, 2021)

yeah and lets not forget that the article numbers for the stones don't correlate with the grit numbers...


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## daniel_il (May 30, 2021)

did someone tried the Debado 3K? i'm looking for chosera alternative


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## Keith Sinclair (May 30, 2021)

JBroida said:


> For what its worth, i have a lot of experience with the rika and have had super thick mud like that before as well... in fact, it is pretty consistently my experience with that stone and especially single bevel or wide bevel knives.
> 
> (a super old video from me... not advocating the kind of sharpening i did there, but you can see how the rika works on that)




Well a older thread & even older sharpening vid.
Glad you didn't delete it. Looks like sound technique to me. You like your gyuto's thin edges. Swinging to the  music. Adjusting for 
curve at the tip, some stropping action. Never used felt with diamond paste, but sure it works.


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## GorillaGrunt (May 31, 2021)

I permasoak mine and it gets really good and muddy


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## Towerguy (May 31, 2021)

JBroida said:


> have you guys ever thought of just e-mailing suehiro to ask instead of making all kinds of crazy comments online? I feel like you could get a pretty direct answer that would clear up quite a bit of this. For example, the rika is not a 3k stone... they use JIS graded 5k abrasives. Its pretty clear. Also, the rika is white alumina, while the cerax is a mix of white alumina and silicon carbide. Also, presenting comments like "such and such is their s**t line of stones" or "this is the best series they make" as fact is problematic for forums where these comments are read by people with no understanding of the context or the person's background or experience.


Right on.


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## kayman67 (May 31, 2021)

inferno said:


> i got exited when i saw dictum now carries the debados with built in bases. the 320 looks like its the coarsest one. i'd really love a coarse stone that stays flat. i was also thinking about trying the 3k and 6k. but the 6k is sold out. and it dont want to import from outside eu since its gets too expensive.
> 
> i see suehiro has changed a few series of stones lately. they had some stone series that was described similar to glass stones but those are completely gone now, and the coarsest taiga is gone too. the taigas are super expensive though. i can get 3 other stones for 1 taiga lol. and i kinda doubt they are _that _good.
> 
> ...


I still don't find it as good as JNS 300, but definitely stayed flat for longer.


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## Knife2meatu (Jun 2, 2021)

Towerguy said:


> Right on.


Yeah... right on until I tried writing emails to Suehiro regarding this, and got zero answer. And you know what, I wrote Norton/St-Gobain about a weird, old Norton stone, the product number of which didn't exist in their catalogue anymore, and they responded quite promptly. So...


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## Barclid (Jun 2, 2021)

Knife2meatu said:


> Yeah... right on until I tried writing emails to Suehiro regarding this, and got zero answer. And you know what, I wrote Norton/St-Gobain about a weird, old Norton stone, the product number of which didn't exist in their catalogue anymore, and they responded quite promptly. So...







__





Soft and muddy synthetic stones


Suehiro 1000/3000 (SKG series) is really soft and muddy.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## daniel_il (Jun 6, 2021)

I have contacted Suehiro regarding the question of cerax\ouka\rika 3000 differences:

this was the answer:

*Is the same.
Sales destination is different, but it does not matter to consumers.
SUEHIRO CO.,LTD*

they respond within an hour. 

i hope it will be helpful for some of suehiro confusion..

Daniel.


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## Knife2meatu (Jun 9, 2021)

@daniel_il Very cool.

The 5k stone which I spoke of at the start of this thread was about 40% of the local price of a Rika 5k -- and people still call the Rika selling for the inflated price a good deal... -- making it a really quite amazing stone; available nominally only/mainly to the Japanese domestic market, unfortunately.

I've been using it permasoaked as a single stone solution for maintaining blue #1: extremely ****ing efficient. Edge is a nice balance of slicing aggression & push cutting refinement; makes plenty of mud for maintaining a good finish on cladding, easily.

Kudos Suehiro.


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## ModRQC (Jun 9, 2021)

On Amazon.ca you can basically get the Rika with or without the base for less than the Cerax 5000 or so. Much less expensive than from specific Cerax retailers like Sharp Knife Shop.


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## Knife2meatu (Jun 10, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> On Amazon.ca you can basically get the Rika with or without the base for less than the Cerax 5000 or so. Much less expensive than from specific Cerax retailers like Sharp Knife Shop.


I have enough "Rika"s at this point... Thanks though  -- Mind you, the more generic Japanese domestic market Suehiro 5k "Rika" is about $20... I'm assuming I did put the product # and a picture earlier in the thread.

As for Cerax 5k: it's fine if everybody wants to agree that it's the same stone as the Rika, and also the generic 5k I've mentioned several times -- I can vouch for it being like the generic 5k; I can't for the Cerax 5k, because I don't have that one -- BUT, and I suppose I should hate to say it, but Suehiro's own website listed the abrasive contained in the Cerax as mixed AlOx & SiC, whereas all the other 5k's mentioned only say about the AlOx. -- Or was it someone here who said the Cerax was mixed AlOx & SiC? I'm pretty sure the discrepancy came up earlier in the thread, in any case -- point remains.

However, considering how similar all these 5k Suehiros *look* -- and considering how they all share the darker grey tint compared to the Cerax/Shiramine 6k -- I'm thinking all the 5k's are mixed abrasive, whereas the 6ks are straight AlOx.

Like I said, ****ing amazing $20 stone, that 5k...


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## ModRQC (Jun 10, 2021)

Was the generic one the same size or the somewhat lesser sized variations that can be had cheap like Ouka?


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## Knife2meatu (Jun 10, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Was the generic one the same size or the somewhat lesser sized variations that can be had cheap like Ouka?


Well, first off, one can get *most* of the 'traditional' Suehiro stones in smaller sizes -- sizes which seem somewhat informally standardized in Japan, considering stones from King, Suehiro, and now Naniwa also -- though I don't remember off the top of my head what size the smaller Naniwas are.

As to the exact 'generic' stone -- which is a misnomer, it isn't generic; it's a proper Suehiro stone, just less fancy packaging and writing -- it really is quite identical to what one might get buying a Rika, with the possible exception that since the Rika has been around so long, there's quite a variety of bases, boxes and other ancillary details which don't match up.

iirc, all of these stones are available in smaller sizes, going by various Suehiro product lists.

Trying to get my head around just how many stones and product lines Suehiro markets was mind-bending, given their utterly incomprehensible numbering/naming system.


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## jwthaparc (Jun 10, 2021)

My rika is a medium mud producing stone


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## ModRQC (Jun 10, 2021)

Knife2meatu said:


> Well, first off, one can get *most* of the 'traditional' Suehiro stones in smaller sizes -- sizes which seem somewhat informally standardized in Japan, considering stones from King, Suehiro, and now Naniwa also -- though I don't remember off the top of my head what size the smaller Naniwas are.
> 
> As to the exact 'generic' stone -- which is a misnomer, it isn't generic; it's a proper Suehiro stone, just less fancy packaging and writing -- it really is quite identical to what one might get buying a Rika, with the possible exception that since the Rika has been around so long, there's quite a variety of bases, boxes and other ancillary details which don't match up.
> 
> ...



NP are really mini-NPs. I don’t recall exact measurements neither, but quite smaller than undersized Suehiros.


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## Knife2meatu (Jun 10, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> NP are really mini-NPs.


I don't understand which stones you're referring to -- there's some recently added Naniwas which are both thinner, as the Naniwa Pros were compared to the Choseras, and also smaller surfaces.

Prior to their introduction, I don't believe one could buy into Naniwa's 'professional' 'Super-Ceramic' line of magnesia-bond stones, without getting something with roughly the surface dimensions of their usual bench stones -- i.e. about 70mm x 210mm.


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## daniel_il (Jun 10, 2021)

Naniwa gouken arata is a smaller size naniwa pro with 15mm of thickness


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## ModRQC (Jun 11, 2021)

Knife2meatu said:


> I don't understand which stones you're referring to -- there's some recently added Naniwas which are both thinner, as the Naniwa Pros were compared to the Choseras, and also smaller surfaces.
> 
> Prior to their introduction, I don't believe one could buy into Naniwa's 'professional' 'Super-Ceramic' line of magnesia-bond stones, without getting something with roughly the surface dimensions of their usual bench stones -- i.e. about 70mm x 210mm.



Tosho doesn’t have the measurements, but these pics are quite telling:







Line is called Yamato.


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## Se1ryu (Jul 7, 2022)

Rika 5k and cerax 5k (5050) has the same abrasive but I feel the results I get from cerax 5K produced less scratches on the blade than rika 5K IMO. Same pressure, same technic, same knife. This is from my experience with the stone. Other people might have different experience or results.

Add: I use it on my Aogami 2 Yanagiba


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## Matt Jacobs (Jul 7, 2022)

I find it really interesting to see people getting good mud from the Rikka. I love mine but get almost zero mud. I dont perma soak so maybe that is difference? Like Se1ryu said I also get some scratches from mine, although very light it can take some work to get a really clean finish on a wide bevel. I do really like the edge I get off of the Rikka on the right steel.


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## jwthaparc (Jul 7, 2022)

I was planning to do this experiment with polishing progressions, the inspiration was another thread here about the effects of not completely erasing the scratches from the stone before. 

Anyway Its been a while since i polished, and i pulled out the stones and polished the bevel in one spot taking pictures of the scratches under a microscope. I ended up getting stalled though because I forgot I pretty much wore through any of my good high grit synthetic stones for polishing. 

When i got to the rika because that's one I have still the scratches looked pretty coarse. 

This is from my king 1.2k





This is from the rika 






The coarse scratches are more random. But the ones that are there are just as coarse as my king 1.2k. 

Anyway, it slowed down the progression up to my naturals quite a bit, and I've been too busy to get back to it. Just figured since I had these pictures I would share here.


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