# Sharpening a single bevel deba (by Hideo Kitaoka)



## valdim (Jul 24, 2020)

Hi there, 
I have some questions for you guys, as I need guidelines.
I bought recently a brand new deba 180 mm (this one) and I am practicing to sharpen it, as it came not quite sharp out of the box.
I found this video: , which I intended to use as a tutorial.
I am using shapton pro 2k and Naniwa 5k. I have also shapton pro 320, but did not use this grid, since the knife is new/not dull..

The deba is damascus, and I "managed" to produce some scratches on the face, which pissed me off (I forgot to protect the blade by putting paper scotch)...
The video shows that first we start with the uraoshi. I'm afraid that I will make scratches on it, if I follow the video...
So my questions/need of guidelines are the following:
1. Is there any other way to sharpen the uraoshi, wthout leaving scratches OR scratches are normal consequence? Should I do as in the video?
2. How can I remove the scratches, which appeared on the shinogi surface?
3. One of the pics shows the shapton after use. It is very difficult to clean the surface from the residues? How do u clean them normally?

Thanks for the opinions.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 24, 2020)

If I’m not mistaken, there’s one piece of info in this video that is controversial (if I’m mistaken simply disregard this point): he recommends using a coarse stone on the ura side and he works a lot on that side too. But if you follow that route you’ll eventually erase the concavity - and that’s totally unwanted. Look at Jbroida’s single bevel sharpening jki-video instead!
As for those scratches you can remove them (or conceal them) reading up on tips about kasumi polishing.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 24, 2020)

Either the wide bevel is somewhat uneven - or you’re wobbling, or you have to work on your pressure control. It’s hard for me to tell from the pictures.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 24, 2020)

Gorgeous knife! Good luck!


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 24, 2020)

About the clogging: do you have a nagura or lapping plate?


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## valdim (Jul 24, 2020)

Thank you, Carl.


Carl Kotte said:


> If I’m not mistaken, there’s one piece of info in this video that is controversial (if I’m mistaken simply disregard this point): he recommends using a coarse stone on the ura side and he works a lot on that side too. But if you follow that route you’ll eventually erase the concavity - and that’s totally unwanted. Look at Jbroida’s single bevel sharpening jki-video instead!
> As for those scratches you can remove them (or conceal them) reading up on tips about kasumi polishing.


Thanks for the guidance, Carl. I found Broida's particular video and I will review it carefully. I will seacrh and read about the kasumi polishing tips, too.


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## valdim (Jul 24, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> About the clogging: do you have a nagura or lapping plate?


No...I dont have...I guess I have to post another WBT thread, too


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 24, 2020)

valdim said:


> No...I dont have...I guess I have to post another WBT thread, too


You can flatten on sand paper on a flat surface. That’s a simple and inexpensive solution. (Not to mention the pavement...).


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## valdim (Jul 24, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> You can flatten on sand paper on a flat surface. That’s a simple and inexpensive solution. (Not to mention the pavement...).


Thanks Carl! What grid should be the sandpaper grid, having in mind the 3 stones that I have?


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 24, 2020)

valdim said:


> Thanks Carl! What grid should be the sandpaper grid, having in mind the 3 stones that I have?


Not sure... but there should be some answer here in the archives somewhere


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## daveb (Jul 24, 2020)

The Shapton is at it's best with quick and dirty sharpening. Not so much at leaving a nice, even finish. A softer stone, preferably a Jnat would be better suited. The JNS 800 would be a good starting point.

(Don't you love how the answer to every problem here is spend more money?)


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## valdim (Jul 24, 2020)

A guy from my country is selling a natural stone *Mikawa Nagura Shima* 165х31х6.5мм. It is like 3k grid...
I wonder if it would help me in some way with the particular sharpening issues.


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## valdim (Jul 24, 2020)

daveb said:


> The Shapton is at it's best with quick and dirty sharpening. Not so much at leaving a nice, even finish. A softer stone, preferably a Jnat would be better suited. The JNS 800 would be a good starting point.
> 
> (Don't you love how the answer to every problem here is spend more money?)


Noted, *daveb*.
Yes, it is lovely...


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## knifeknight (Jul 24, 2020)

There‘s a really good video of uraoshi sharpening on JCK. 

The scratches you produced are quite normal for 1000-4000 grit stones. You should try to use always the same angle on your stone to produce scratches in the same direction.

Afterwards finish the knife on a 6000-10000 grit stone or a JNAT and do the uraoshi only on this one. If you use a natural stone you finally will get a nice hazy finish.

Nice blade btw.


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## knifeknight (Jul 24, 2020)

Found the link: How To Sharpen, its No 2 you should follow...

Good luck !


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## Barclid (Jul 24, 2020)

Your angle is too high and you seem to be under the impression that the scratches on your blade road are a bad thing to be avoided. You NEED to hit the blade road in order to sharpen properly. It already looks like you've thickened your knife quite a bit.


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## Fellax (Jul 24, 2020)

Hi, I have the same knife (the 165 mm model). First time I've sharpened it I've noticed some lower spots, if you want an even finish, you should do a full progression starting from the lower grit stone until you have a uniform finish, otherwise you can use sand paper and fingerstone, or a cork with stone mud, but latest method is very slow.
For the ura side i would start from 2k or 6k with a fresh flattened stone.


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## valdim (Jul 24, 2020)

Hm...A lot of feedback, which I will review carefully.
Thanks for all opinions, guys!

Btw, would you comment also #12? I would appreciate your opinion in case this stone is valuable. The guy sells it for 45 euro (like 52 dollasr).


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## Fellax (Jul 25, 2020)

valdim said:


> Hm...A lot of feedback, which I will review carefully.
> Thanks for all opinions, guys!
> 
> Btw, would you comment also #12? I would appreciate your opinion in case this stone is valuable. The guy sells it for 45 euro (like 52 dollasr).


I don't know that particular layer, but the form factor seems quite good. Keep in mind that a good natural stone (at least fine ones) are sold for way higher prices. To restore the Damascus pattern of the knife, probably a muddy stone would be better. With an harder stone is still doable, but is more difficult.
Polishing is a very long process that requires patience, the shapton 2k gives a good contrast if used with a good amount of thick mud using short strokes.


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## ian (Dec 15, 2020)

Necro bump!!!

Received a deba to sharpen. First time for me. This one seems to have a big micro (macro?) 2mm bevel near the heel that disappears maybe 1/3-1/2 of the way up the blade. You all do this too? Seems like a decent idea in theory, what with the whacking bones with the heel and doing delicate tip work.


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## M1k3 (Dec 15, 2020)

I've of a 45°ish micro-bevel at the heel being used. That being for going between bones.


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## ian (Dec 15, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I've of a 45°ish micro-bevel at the heel being used. That being for going between bones.



Think there’s any reason to have it so wide, rather than an actual microbevel? Does it really need that much reinforcement at the heel?


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## M1k3 (Dec 15, 2020)

I guess if you're not so careful?


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## Ochazuke (Dec 15, 2020)

It’s a common practice, and not a bad solution to common deba abuse, but I personally don’t like that approach.

I think if you have good technique, deba functions better with a nice even hamaguriba.


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## Ochazuke (Dec 15, 2020)

But way too many people use their deba like a cleaver. I think many people mistakenly believe that you need force to go through fish heads and bones...


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 16, 2020)

ian said:


> Necro bump!!!
> 
> Received a deba to sharpen. First time for me. This one seems to have a big micro (macro?) 2mm bevel near the heel that disappears maybe 1/3-1/2 of the way up the blade. You all do this too? Seems like a decent idea in theory, what with the whacking bones with the heel and doing delicate tip work.
> 
> View attachment 106589


Mmmm, That’s one ugly deba


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## valdim (Dec 16, 2020)

knifeknight said:


> Found the link: How To Sharpen, its No 2 you should follow...
> 
> Good luck !


Hi there. Some feedback from me after I got bold and started sharpening my deba Hideo Kitaoka.
I used sandpapers Bosch 1200 and KLINGSPOR1500 and 2000 to remove some rust spots which were there, and the scratches (see my first post).
After the intervention the blade was having no rust trails at all ( they were slight anyway, but I was having no rest seeing them on the blade) and I removed the scratches, too.

Then I watched several times Broida's video, which @Carl Kotte recommended...Damn, why this man is making things look so complicated?!? Well, may be it's because I am dummy. Anyhow, I got the idea and tried my best to follow all those big and small rules and ordinances of Joe.
Not sure I did everything properly, but at the end this thing became SO daaaamn sharp. I was most careful not to damage the bak (concave) side by sharpening too much or at too big angle. I think I managed...

Same evening I used the knife to fillet a 800 g sea bass and 2 * 800 sea breams...Guys, it was heaven! It is great to have a sharp deba!

Next time I will use the tutorial which @knifeknight suggested (thank you, again!) from here . I find it much easier to follow and the text embeded is really helpful.
Take care!


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## ian (Dec 16, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> If I’m not mistaken, there’s one piece of info in this video that is controversial (if I’m mistaken simply disregard this point): he recommends using a coarse stone on the ura side and he works a lot on that side too. But if you follow that route you’ll eventually erase the concavity - and that’s totally unwanted. Look at Jbroida’s single bevel sharpening jki-video instead!
> As for those scratches you can remove them (or conceal them) reading up on tips about kasumi polishing.



i’m a little curious about this. I’d like to only use medium-fine stones on the ura side, but I would imagine it is important to keep a couple mm wide flat bevel behind the edge on that side. If you are going to town on the wide bevel with a coarse stone, presumably you also need to take off a fair amount of material on the back to preserve that bevel.

Maybe the answer, though, is that when you sharpen the wide bevel you need to remove a ton of metal in order to get the edge to move up. On the other hand, when you’re doing uraoshi sharpening the area of contact with the stone is rather small, just small bevels near the spine and edge, so you don’t need to be as aggressive to move the edge (or rather the top of the edge bevel) up a similar amount.


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## M1k3 (Dec 16, 2020)

The uraoshi (forgive me if I'm not using the correct term) just needs to contact the edge. Whether it's a hairs width or a mm or 2. The smaller the better. Less steel removed, more life left in the ura.


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 17, 2020)

I’m no uraologist but I can put you in contact with one.


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## ian (Dec 17, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> The uraoshi (forgive me if I'm not using the correct term) just needs to contact the edge. Whether it's a hairs width or a mm or 2. The smaller the better. Less steel removed, more life left in the ura.



Hmm. Some references I read talk about the uraoshi helping to strengthen the edge and keep it less brittle, which makes sense. I thought I read somewhere that one should keep it a mm or two thick or something for strength, but now I can't find the reference. Interesting.

Regardless of whether you’re trying to maintain a hair’s width uraoshi next to the edge or whether you’re trying to keep it at a mm, though, you still have to be removing steel, so I'm not sure it makes a difference in my previous post. 

I wonder if it's also useful to keep more like a mm worth of uraoshi next to the edge to make sure that it never disappears when sharpening the bevel. I mean, if it actually disappears somewhere and you keep sharpening then when you go to do uraoshi sharpening the blade won't lie flat anymore and it may be a PITA to try to correct the geometry. Hmm.


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## ian (Dec 17, 2020)

Speaking of which, maybe the deba someone gave me to sharpen is a little f’ed up on the back. It looks like that 45 degree macrobevel near the heel went up into the urasuki, unsurprisingly. So the uraoshi doesn’t even extend to the heel. You can tell it’s not flat on the back, since if you lay it down on the counter and start pressing on the edge in various places, it’s stable until 3 cm or so in front of the heel, at which point it starts wobbling a bit.

Guess I need to sharpen the uraoshi enough to get it flat? What a huge pain... any advice is appreciated.


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 17, 2020)

@ian or you just sharpen the knife flat (where flat is possible) leaving the heel section (or the section not touching the stone) unsharpened. If that part is intended for rough play anyway it might not even need to be sharp. That will save you some time and stones


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## ian (Dec 17, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> @ian or you just sharpen the knife flat (where flat is possible) leaving the heel section (or the section not touching the stone) unsharpened. If that part is intended for rough play anyway it might not even need to be sharp. That will save you some time and stones



Tbh, I asked her how she used the knife and she said “trying not to crunch - just slicing things like tuna and such ?”, so not sure the extra bevel is even warranted.


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 17, 2020)

ian said:


> Tbh, I asked her how she used the knife and she said “trying not to crunch - just slicing things like tuna and such ?”, so not sure the extra bevel is even warranted.


Hmmm, I see! Slicing?! GLWS!


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## M1k3 (Dec 17, 2020)

Is the spine and edge straight?


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## M1k3 (Dec 17, 2020)

ian said:


> Tbh, I asked her how she used the knife and she said “trying not to crunch - just slicing things like tuna and such ?”, so not sure the extra bevel is even warranted.


Bone-in frozen tuna slices?


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## ian (Dec 17, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Is the spine and edge straight?



Yea, seems ok. And actually, the backside’s not so terrible after all. I spent like 2 min on it with Cho 800 and I think I hit the edge everywhere except for like 8mm near the heel. Will probably have to work on it more, though, since the bevel also needs more work.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Dec 17, 2020)

ian said:


> I wonder if it's also useful to keep more like a mm worth of uraoshi next to the edge to make sure that it never disappears when sharpening the bevel. I mean, if it actually disappears somewhere and you keep sharpening then when you go to do uraoshi sharpening the blade won't lie flat anymore and it may be a PITA to try to correct the geometry. Hmm.


This relates to the discussion that I was trying to stimulate here; Yanagiba Repair


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## M1k3 (Dec 17, 2020)

Hmm. Double check there's no bend at heel to correct. Then go to town on something coarser, like 400-500. Pressure on the edge side.


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## ian (Dec 17, 2020)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> This relates to the discussion that I was trying to stimulate here; Yanagiba Repair



It does look like he creates a whole new urasuki in the vid, or at least adds more concavity. He might also be grinding down the spine side of the uraoshi when he does that. So you wouldn't get a twist, you'd just get that the entire knife was sort of offset to the right a bit from where it was before. Then again, if the knife plane is sort of rotated a bit from the direction the handle is installed, is that really a problem? Probably would get used to it quickly. Idk



M1k3 said:


> Hmm. Double check there's no bend at heel to correct. Then go to town on something coarser, like 400-500. Pressure on the edge side.



I read some stuff about pressure only on the shinogi, which makes sense to me, since you want to make sure not to grind down the edge more than the spine, since if you do that the plane the uraoshi lies in will become angled. But otherwise, yea, probably.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 18, 2020)

This popped up in my recommendations I thought it would be perfect to post here.


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