# Kochi with a Machi



## fimbulvetr (Apr 5, 2017)

Kochi with a Machi, I know, I know, I'm curious.

Can you tell us more about these, Jon? I read the description on the website (https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/kochi-210mm-kurouchi-wa-gyuto-with-machi for those playing along at home) so I know, kinda, why a machi is desirable but I'm curious to know why you developed this as an alternative product from your shop. Is this the end result of a whim, part of your plan to design the ultimate kitchen knife, or something else?

Also, do I need one? And, if I do, can you explain to my wife?


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## JBroida (Apr 5, 2017)

someone asked me if we could make some, and i was like, "why not?"

The machi makes the neck area wider, so the spine is closer to in-line with the top fo the handle and the wider neck is a bit more comfortable in my grip, but its just a personal preference thing. 

Anyways, it was just for fun because we could and someone asked. I cant just have one knife made, so we made a few of each.

I'm happy with how it turned out though... i've been thinknig about switching the whole line over... what do you guys think?


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## labor of love (Apr 5, 2017)

Oh yeah, I would definitely prefer that.


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## chinacats (Apr 5, 2017)

JBroida said:


> ... i've been thinknig about switching the whole line over... what do you guys think?



NOOOOOOOO!


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## labor of love (Apr 5, 2017)

chinacats said:


> NOOOOOOOO!



Haha! Did you look at the photo? It's pretty sweet.


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## khashy (Apr 5, 2017)

I'm with L.O.L on this one


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## valgard (Apr 5, 2017)

I like it better, looks great to me :doublethumbsup:


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## labor of love (Apr 5, 2017)

I'm guessing China thought it was an exposed machi gap, I could be wrong though.


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## fimbulvetr (Apr 5, 2017)

I think they're pretty sweet with the machi. I'm more than a little tempted by the ones I've seen. I like that they're available both ways, honestly, which is a total pain-in-the-ass answer, I know.


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## XooMG (Apr 5, 2017)

I'm gonna find the person who suggested the idea and buy them a drink.


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## milkbaby (Apr 5, 2017)

Looks great! :doublethumbsup:

Is it more traditional to have some machi gap on the handle install though? Or is it different in different regions?


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## toddnmd (Apr 5, 2017)

I like the machi for myself, but some might prefer the regular version. I generally think having options is good, so I think you should try to stock both unless it's too much trouble, or if you find one is so highly preferred over the other. I didn't see the 240 version before it sold out, I would have been very tempted!


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## add (Apr 6, 2017)

XooMG said:


> I'm gonna find the person who suggested the idea and buy them a drink.



Good.

Because after that point, leg tripping on the sidewalk will be all the easier...


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## SolidSnake03 (Apr 6, 2017)

Makes me tempted to buy another Kochi, seriously, great choice and much prefererred from a comfort standpoint for me at least


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## chinacats (Apr 6, 2017)

Maybe I'm missing something here and only pics I see currently are on my phone (meaning I can't see ****) but the only knife I've owned with an exposed machi was a SIH and I couldn't stand it.

I'll only add that the two Kochis I've owned were damn near perfect as they were.


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## jessf (Apr 6, 2017)

I don't see a machi in the photos in the link. Show me the machi!!!


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## malexthekid (Apr 6, 2017)

There is no gap. Compare the height of blade where it meets the handle.


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## jessf (Apr 6, 2017)

Oh i see the neck is taller. So, if there's a gap at the shoulder or no gap, a thicker neck is called a machi? I was under the impression the gap is called the machi. The neck is called the emoto i thought. In the photos i see here is a thicker emoto but i don't see a machi. So i must have bad information.


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## XooMG (Apr 6, 2017)

jessf said:


> Oh i see the neck is taller. So, if there's a gap at the shoulder or no gap, a thicker neck is called a machi? I was under the impression the gap is called the machi. The neck is called the emoto i thought. In the photos i see here is a thicker emoto but i don't see a machi. So i must have bad information.


Machi is a shoulder to differentiate neck from tang. Whether it is exposed or not is irrelevant.


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## jessf (Apr 6, 2017)

XooMG said:


> Machi is a shoulder to differentiate neck from tang. Whether it is exposed or not is irrelevant.



So is this right or wrong?

http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/jpnktknvterms.shtml


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## malexthekid (Apr 6, 2017)

I'm awaiting Jon's or someone else who is equally knowledgeable to respond, as that is what I thought it was prior to this.


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## XooMG (Apr 7, 2017)

jessf said:


> So is this right or wrong?
> 
> http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/jpnktknvterms.shtml


I may have read that page wrong but it seems to suggest a gap between handle and machi. If that is the case, it is inaccurate.

Machi is the shoulder itself, not the gap between the shoulder and handle. Machi exist with or without a handle.

For a poor analogy, a shoulder might be the thing a bra strap hangs from, but you do not need a bra to have a shoulder.


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## Von blewitt (Apr 7, 2017)

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I always thought the machi was the gap itself


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## jessf (Apr 7, 2017)

XooMG said:


> I may have read that page wrong but it seems to suggest a gap between handle and machi. If that is the case, it is inaccurate.
> 
> Machi is the shoulder itself, not the gap between the shoulder and handle. Machi exist with or without a handle.
> 
> For a poor analogy, a shoulder might be the thing a bra strap hangs from, but you do not need a bra to have a shoulder.



The text and diagram indicate that dimension L is the machi. The two reference lines indicated that dimension L starts at the shoulder and ends at a refernce line representing the handle. If they got it wrong in the text then they also drew it wrong as far as a technical drawing is concerend. It's also not the first and only place ive seen it described that way.


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## XooMG (Apr 7, 2017)

jessf said:


> The text and diagram indicate that dimension L is the machi. The two reference lines indicated that dimension L starts at the shoulder and ends at a refernce line representing the handle. If they got it wrong in the text then they also drew it wrong as far as a technical drawing is concerend. It's also not the first and only place ive seen it described that way.


Then yes, it is a technically inaccurate description.


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## jessf (Apr 7, 2017)

XooMG said:


> Then yes, it is a technically inaccurate description.



Online authority is an easy trap to fall into; are there any third party sources that can confirm?


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## valgard (Apr 7, 2017)

jessf said:


> Online authority is an easy trap to fall into; are there any third party sources that can confirm?



I have no real knowledge whatsoever but just going off of Jon's description of this Koshi it indicates the same thing that XooMG is pointing to, at least that is what I gathered from the get go.
Key is that whenever he talks about the gap in videos or text it is referred to as "*machi gap*" instead of just "*machi*". To me that was the key in interpreting what Kochi with machi meant. 
Don't attack me, I know nothing but just going off semantics it was pretty clear to me they were not the same thing and XooMG's explanation just made total sense to me.


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## khashy (Apr 7, 2017)

Scroll down to about the middle of the page

http://www.echefknife.com/about-knives


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## XooMG (Apr 7, 2017)

jessf said:


> Online authority is an easy trap to fall into; are there any third party sources that can confirm?


I cannot conveniently find anything in English, but it is commonly used correctly in Japanese references, and more importantly, it is correctly used (in general) in Japanese workshops, both for knives and other blades.

Call me an internet authority if you like, but your source and its diagram are inaccurate.

[Edited to remove belligerence]


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## JBroida (Apr 8, 2017)

yeah... xoomg is right here... the gap is not the machi... the machi is the feature where the neck cuts in to become a thinner tang. its the feature that allows the spine of the knife to be more in alignment with the top of the handle, and makes the neck of the wider.


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## jessf (Apr 8, 2017)

khashy said:


> Scroll down to about the middle of the page
> 
> http://www.echefknife.com/about-knives



Yeah i found that one but the written portion is a bit vague and the diagram is pointing to the neck. You'd call it a shoulder if it was refenrecing a step. Calling it a notch means it's notched or abutted on two sides by material.

https://goo.gl/images/jJRg84

Found another.

And XooMG, i actually copied and pasted your "authority" comment almost verbatim from a post you made earlier in a separate thread about youtube. So if it urked you to read it here, don't say stuff like that. Saying something "is" without evidence to point to is basically saying it "is cause i say so" and im not that easily persuaded.


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## XooMG (Apr 8, 2017)

jessf said:


> And XooMG, i actually copied and pasted your "authority" comment almost verbatim from a post you made earlier in a separate thread about youtube. So if it urked you to read it here, don't say stuff like that. Saying something "is" without evidence to point to is basically saying it "is cause i say so" and im not that easily persuaded.


I am aware if what I wrote, and it does not irk me. I am not arrogating; I think poor translators and Japanese illiterates are causing confusion for anglophones, when it is not a problem for those of us who use Japanese. The only unambiguous use in English I've seen is in swords, which is the use the knife folks borrow from.


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## preizzo (Apr 8, 2017)

Love the Maki! As Jon says it s more comfortable while cutting with a pinch grip (in my opinion). 
They look great!


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## milkbaby (Apr 8, 2017)

preizzo said:


> Love the Maki! As Jon says it s more comfortable while cutting with a pinch grip (in my opinion).
> They look great!



Mmmm, maki... I love sushi too! :groucho:


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## milkbaby (Apr 8, 2017)

JBroida said:


> yeah... xoomg is right here... the gap is not the machi... the machi is the feature where the neck cuts in to become a thinner tang. its the feature that allows the spine of the knife to be more in alignment with the top of the handle, and makes the neck of the wider.



I am still curious if leaving the machi gap is different practice in different regions of Japan. It seems some retailers will install with the machi butted right up to the handle but other knives don't and have a gap.


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## preizzo (Apr 8, 2017)

&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;Damm the Maki are good...... &#129315;&#129315;


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## JBroida (Apr 8, 2017)

milkbaby said:


> I am still curious if leaving the machi gap is different practice in different regions of Japan. It seems some retailers will install with the machi butted right up to the handle but other knives don't and have a gap.



yes... its most common in sakai and tokyo... tokyo tends to leave the largest gaps


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## labor of love (Apr 18, 2017)

JBroida said:


> I'm happy with how it turned out though... i've been thinknig about switching the whole line over... what do you guys think?



Do it. There's a zillion knife lines that don't do this sort of thing and not enough to choose from that do.


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