# Am I too Picky, or is There Something Odd With This Choil Shot?



## aboynamedsuita (Aug 24, 2015)

I've been working through a "customer service situation" over the past couple of months with a non-KKF bladesmith. I always like to give the benefit of the doubt, support "the little guy", put myself in their shoes, etc. Earlier today the "customer service situation" ended and I was given a refund (less a lot of my time, running around to the post office, etc.) and advised that I shouldn't purchase products from them in the future, although I've purchased some other blades which I really like. At this point I would like to know if I am being too picky?
_EDIT: In the interest of full disclosure, I had the refund amount as a store credit for some time in anticipation of purchasing another knife._

I don't expect perfection, but there are some fundamentals that should be met. Yes just about any shaped piece of metal can cut if it has an edge, but I'm not talking about a $20.00 knife from Wal-mart. What are your thoughts about this choil shot? For information, the knife is double bevel and cost in the $450-$500 USD range. This is a brand new OOTB knife.





I'll continue the story once I have a sense from the community whether or not I am crazy.

Thanks KKF.


----------



## Godslayer (Aug 24, 2015)

Top 3 ugliest bevels ive ever seen. Its all wavy and looks like it was bent during shipping.


----------



## IndoorOutdoorCook (Aug 24, 2015)

Is that an 'S' grind? :justkidding:


----------



## ThEoRy (Aug 24, 2015)

Yeah it just looks hollow on the right (of the blade, not the photo) and it humps out on the left. That appears to be a strange grind, maybe it works good for a lefty?


----------



## chinacats (Aug 24, 2015)

It's ****** :clown:


----------



## panda (Aug 24, 2015)

what the hell is that?


----------



## Dardeau (Aug 24, 2015)

That looks very wrong, is it bent, or just ground poorly?


----------



## sharptools (Aug 24, 2015)

That reminds me of a mizuno choil pic from this

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23726-Mizuno-Tanrenjo-DX-Suminagashi-Wa-Gyuto

I forget who but I remember someone said certain mizunos were like that.


----------



## daveb (Aug 24, 2015)

Was the photographer drinking?

Or the knifemaker?


----------



## marc4pt0 (Aug 24, 2015)

That's aggressive. But I wonder how it cuts. ..


----------



## Von blewitt (Aug 24, 2015)

I only know 1 US knifemaker who charges that for a knife that would be finished to that level, I'm guessing that it's just errant hammer marks towards the choil, and the grind is not like that throughout the length of the blade. While its not the nicest to look at does it affect how the knife cuts?


----------



## sharptools (Aug 24, 2015)

sharptools said:


> That reminds me of a mizuno choil pic from this
> 
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23726-Mizuno-Tanrenjo-DX-Suminagashi-Wa-Gyuto
> 
> I forget who but I remember someone said certain mizunos were like that.



Just want to say I'm not sure that really is the same thing though.


----------



## DevinT (Aug 24, 2015)

Is that for left or right handed use?

Hoss


----------



## ecchef (Aug 24, 2015)

Very....umm...unorthodox. Hardened to RC25?
So really, the vendor's advice was 'don't buy any more of my sh!t'? Guess that's why they're not a vendor here.


----------



## Dave Martell (Aug 24, 2015)

I'm...well....yeah....I guess that I don't know what to say, I've never seen anything like this.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Aug 24, 2015)

Thanks everyone, the consensus seems that I'm not crazy and there was definitely something up with the knife. I was quite certain of that from the minute I saw it, but was told that there was nothing wrong with it (yes just about anything can cut if it is sharp). I never used it and it was shipped back so can't comment on its performance. 

I plan on updating the thread tomorrow with more information and answer the questions as I've received some PMs about this, but want to "tread lightly" and phrase my responses carefully. Although I was taken aback by the final response I received, especially considering my tolerance and understanding with this (and the mixup on their part with the subsequent knife I purchased and then returned :shocked3, I want to keep this civil. Thanks for understanding. 

sharptools - the Mizuno choil in the top pic looks a bit off I think because the picture is not quite centred (you can see part of the left blade face)


----------



## MAS4T0 (Aug 24, 2015)

sharptools said:


> That reminds me of a mizuno choil pic from this
> 
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23726-Mizuno-Tanrenjo-DX-Suminagashi-Wa-Gyuto
> 
> I forget who but I remember someone said certain mizunos were like that.



I have the same Mizuno and the grind is nothing like the one in this thread. 

The photo in the linked thread is at a slightly off angle and you're seeing the side of the blade too.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Aug 26, 2015)

Sorry for the delay, I wasn't exactly sure what to write or how to do it... I'll also try and answer the questions I received in the thread.



DevinT said:


> Is that for left or right handed use?
> 
> Hoss





ThEoRy said:


> Yeah it just looks hollow on the right (of the blade, not the photo) and it humps out on the left. That appears to be a strange grind, maybe it works good for a lefty?


The knife is a double bevel san-mai, if anything it should be right hand biased in the traditional Japanese style. I'm a lefty so I thought this may not be the end of the world, but for a knife that is less than 2mm thick and sells for $468.00USD I had concerns about how long you would be able to thin the one side, plus I could tell something was off.



Dardeau said:


> That looks very wrong, is it bent, or just ground poorly?


The knife and shipping boxes arrived in good condition, so it wasn't a result of shipping damages.



daveb said:


> Was the photographer drinking?
> 
> Or the knifemaker?


I wasn't drinking when I took the picture, I'll defer comment on the knifemaker/bladesmith.



Von blewitt said:


> I only know 1 US knifemaker who charges that for a knife that would be finished to that level, I'm guessing that it's just errant hammer marks towards the choil, and the grind is not like that throughout the length of the blade. While its not the nicest to look at does it affect how the knife cuts?


I placed the blade on a flat glass plate, and the right side (spine and cutting edge) weas basically dead flat, and didn't really have a wobble if you pressed it on various parts of the blade. When I flipped it over, there was a uniform gap between the plate and cutting edge. The knife was basically flat on one side.



ecchef said:


> Very....umm...unorthodox. Hardened to RC25?
> So really, the vendor's advice was 'don't buy any more of my sh!t'? Guess that's why they're not a vendor here.


During the phone call a couple days ago I was told I shouldn't order (or not to order) from them anymore because "we can't make the type of knife you're looking for" or something to that effect. To be honest, I was so taken aback by what was said considering all the events (more story to come) that the conversation and following events seem like a blur.



Dave Martell said:


> I'm...well....yeah....I guess that I don't know what to say, I've never seen anything like this.


This is coming from Dave, so we know there is something up, 'nuff said.

I also received some PMs about this (member identities are kept private):


> ...who the hell made that knife...





> ...that knife is absolutely a mess..





> ...I can't help but wonder who's work it is...



Even though I knew something was off, when an ABS Mastersmith who trained in Japan for many years before coming to the USA tells you that there's nothing wrong and the knife cuts fine (this was after I had returned it), you start to doubt yourself. At this point it should also be obvious who the bladesmith is. I was really surprized as I have two other stainless clad knives from them with no such issue (I know that KU finished blades are more "rustic", but I hadn't expected this):





I ordered this KU funayuki on June 20th, and when it arrived I could tell something wasn't right. So I called in to discuss my concerns and emailed the three pictures I've posted to this thread. Although it was suggested that "that may be the best cutting knife you've ever used", I was going to return it and have another shipped to me (the round of shipping would be their cost and I would be reimbursed for my cost). Not wanting to risk having the knives sell out online, I paid the cost (knife & shipping) and ordered thru the website for another one to be shipped in the the interim and we would settle the difference afterwards.

Well, when the replacement knife arrived I wasn't sent the one I ordered! It was a mix-up on their part because there were two that were similar, but I had gone off of the images and selected the one with the nicer KU finish, hammer marks, profile, etc. It took a lot of back and forth emails to sort this out, but when we did it was decided I'd ship it back at their cost.

At this point I had $1100USD in limbo and paid over $200CAD to the CBSA for Customs fees. Fortunately there is process to get the CBSA fees refunded, however the $10/shipment processing fee is not refundable, whatever...

I was issued a refund thru PayPal for $550USD on July 21st, supposed to clear on the 24th. At this point we were going the keep the remaining balance as a credit because I noticed that blue steel tactical knives were being made (before it was confirmed in the newsletter), so I was keen to see if this would be extended to kitchen knives. It took over *3 weeks* for the PayPal to clear due to "glitch" at PayPal. I called PayPal frequently to say what the hell is going on (but in a more polite and civil fashion), and once a week had elapsed after I had the case "escalated" around the two week mark, I had a 30+ minute call/hold combo and had it resolved, well kinda. It still shows as pending on my activity page, but PayPal paid me and will intercept the refund once they get their system figured out.

When we were sorting out the remaining $550ish USD, they did the math and got that they owed me $627USD. I politely explained why I thought I was only owed $550USD and sent my numbers over to check, which they later confirmed as correct (I had used the knife tips promo code which they didn't factor in). I was still interested in a blue steel kitchen knife so we kept it as a credit. This was in the first week of August (prior to the TV show aired on the 10th if that has any significance).

On August 24 during my lunch break I was on KKF, ironically posting in a thread about how much I like my Carter knives (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...learning-forging-Any-tips?p=372812#post372812). Almost instantly after posting, I took a call from Murray himself, and the rest is history. _Timing had to have been a coincidence, he called me at 12:30 and again at 12:31 because I missed the call and I suppose he didn't want to leave a voicemail, and my post was at 12:31._ I was immediately issued the remaining refund amount (this time it was instant :cool2. I almost went back to edit the comment I had made, but despite this negative experience I didn't. I still like the two knives I have, and had been speaking with Stefan about getting a Norfolk pine and Hawaiian signature tree handles for them. All I can say is I won't be purchasing anymore of knives from Carter Cutlery, and will cherish the two that I bought before this unsavoury incident.

In my defence, and I don't mean to sound like a prick, but I think that all of the events were their fault; I didn't send me a questionable knife, and I didn't send me the wrong replacement knife. Way back around this time in 2014 when I ordered my first knife, they didn't package it well and it arrived damaged (they put it vertically in the USPS box) so when the USPS box was flat, something on top of it during shipping crushed it a bit, and the heel chipped several mm. We sorted that out and we were all good until later in the fall when I ordered the two I currently have. At no point did I ever act disrespectfully towards them regarding their mistakes and accuse them of "being idiots", or "incapable of packaging", etc. (you get the idea). I really liked my knives and was looking forward to another. Perhaps this is why I was so surprised by how the conversation went.

This entire experience has left me questioning my enthusiasm for knives; I still am a big fan of KKF and will continue to be a Site Supporter member, I still plan on building my Shigefusa set and getting some others such as Hinoura and Kato, but when I got home that day I sort of said to myself why the hell does a home cook like me have like 40 knives (including my Henckels set, not counting butter or steak knives). I basically bought knives for the sake of having them, and this was the first time it really bothered me.

I'm sorry if this long comment is out of line, and it is with reservation that I posted the identity. All I am doing is citing the chronology of events as objectively as possible. We are all settled fanancially, although I still have to go down to the CBSA and do a sh!tload of paperwork to get most of my money back. I still think Carter makes some good knives, but just be sure of what you're getting.

If a moderator catches something that doesn't sit well in this post please edit the comment.

Respectfully,

Tanner


----------



## Dardeau (Aug 26, 2015)

Tanner,
Be cool. Cook yourself and a pretty person dinner. Drink wine. Eat dessert. Enjoy it. That is what this is all about. 

If you feel you own too many knives, list those bad boys on BST. One of these other fiends will take them off your hands. You had what sounds like a worst case scenario situation, just the trips to the post office sound like a nightmare, not to mention sitting on hold.

Put some music on and make big vegetables into little vegetables and feed them to someone you love.


----------



## Cheeks1989 (Aug 26, 2015)

We have a saying in the restaurant business Tanner. **** happens. Dont let it bother you,


----------



## 420layersofdank (Aug 26, 2015)

Tanner, Can't help but admire your ironclad of patience. Teach me your Zen sensei


----------



## Squilliam (Aug 27, 2015)

Really I think you should have used it and see if it cut as expected, then sharpened it fully and seen if it had any terminal flaws in the grind. As others have said, It may just be a hammer blow near the choil which makes it look strange in your pic. If it was genuinely improperly forged or ground, the maker would have replaced it I'm sure.


----------



## chefcomesback (Aug 27, 2015)

Squilliam said:


> Really I think you should have used it and see if it cut as expected, then sharpened it fully and seen if it had any terminal flaws in the grind. As others have said, It may just be a hammer blow near the choil which makes it look strange in your pic. If it was genuinely improperly forged or ground, the maker would have replaced it I'm sure.



I have to disagree with that , I wouldnt send out a meal that looked "not right " to even untrained eye and tell them "just eat it , it tastes good "
Most of the knife purchases we do are emotional purchases making us happier than buying $25 knife with the feeling of buying something unique ,rare and better performer . If you open the box and if there are some fit and finish issues you may oversee due to cutting performance but this is not fit and finish to say the least ,


----------



## brooksie967 (Aug 27, 2015)

Good writeup. Sounds like you handled it well and have learned from your experience. That blade looked like trash too


----------



## knyfeknerd (Aug 27, 2015)

Great write up Tanner. I'd say you handled the situation much better than a lot of us would. Don't give up on the knives......
......they'll continue to call out to you......


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Aug 27, 2015)

Thanks for the positive comments everyone, I'm glad to hear that others also agree that the knife had issues. I'm sure it would cut as I was told it would, but I'm not going to be a guinea pig with a questionable blade for that price. I'm glad the ordeal is over now.

I also take back what I said about the knives; the refund went towards a Shig Petty from Maksim yesterday and the balance will be going towards a BoardSMITH (once I can get ahold of John or Dave) so I think were back to normal now


----------



## Cheeks1989 (Aug 27, 2015)

Haha that didn't take long to come back! :2thumbsup:


----------



## Smurfmacaw (Aug 27, 2015)

tjangula said:


> Thanks for the positive comments everyone, I'm glad to hear that others also agree that the knife had issues. I'm sure it would cut as I was told it would, but I'm not going to be a guinea pig with a questionable blade for that price. I'm glad the ordeal is over now.
> 
> I also take back what I said about the knives; the refund went towards a Shig Petty from Maksim yesterday and the balance will be going towards a BoardSMITH (once I can get ahold of John or Dave) so I think were back to normal now



Oh lol, so you are one of the quick responders. I couldn't get to my computer for an hour after he sent the email and they were already gone. Good job, you'll have to tell us how you like it after you get it.


----------



## Dave Martell (Aug 27, 2015)

I obviously don't know what happened here but after going through some prior dealings with Carter's #1 office guy back a few years ago here on the forums (he got himself banned) so I have little doubt that if he was involved in this issue(s) it took a wrong turn because of him. I can't recall his name but he's a real jackass and does Murray's reputation a great disservice. I promised this guy that I would let Murray know about him one day but he told me that would never happen because he controls the calls that Murray gets. Maybe this guy doesn't even work there anymore but the point of this is that Murray is likely (somewhat) shielded from his customer interactions and only knows what he's told from his staff. Murray may have heard that you were a problem child and he jumped in to fix the situation. Like I said, I have no idea what happened, this is just a feeling I have based on prior experience. 

For the record, I admire Murray Carter's work and overall business model and look to him as an example of what can be done through hard work and dedication to one's craft. I can only hope to know a fraction of his success and I'd be happy if I attained that level. I'm not bashing Murray here, I'm simply stating what I've experienced with one of his employees.


----------



## nwdel (Aug 27, 2015)

Sorry to hear about your experience, it truly sucks being involved in those kinds of situations. Several months back I bought a Carter KU funayuki that had about a one inch long dull section an inch and a half from the heel. I called Carter and they were apologetic and offered to resharpen it and offered their sharpening videos gratis. Overall I had a positive experience.
I too admire Murray's dedication, philosophy and craftsmanship but I can't help but wonder with the amount of knives and apprentices and projects that he has going on that a few lemons slip through to customers.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 27, 2015)

My understanding was that only knives made by Murray himself were sold as Carter's and other knives were Muteki, has this changed?


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Aug 27, 2015)

The office/admin guy I was dealing with seemed like a good guy, unless of course he's good at playing two-face. We've had a lot of back and forth since September of last year, and even my dealings with Murray himself were pleasant when I had more technical questions (such as about getting the prefabricated stainless clad steel as opposed to forge welding in the shop himself).

I can understand Murray being upset, with the lost shipping plus paying me for my return shipping would've been about $100usd, but my time is really valuable too so I'm EASILY out that much myself. Perhaps forged in fire had something to do with it as well? I personally didn't feel as if he had to make the response video as that show and kitchen knifes are a totally different ball game, but I imagine some people gave him some flak over "why he didn't win". 

As far as the "Carter" knives are concerned, my understanding is that all the "real" work is done my Murray, but minor things such as handles may be done by others, I think this was on his website somewhere.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 27, 2015)

From the Carter Cutlery website (emphasis added):

Our knives are hand-forged by Murray Carter, a traditional Japanese bladesmith. All of our knives are forged, annealed, heat-treated, ground, polished and hand-sharpened personally by the 17th Yoshimoto bladesmith himself. *The one exception is our Muteki knives which are made by Murray's seasoned apprentices under his direct guidance and supervision.*


----------



## chinacats (Aug 28, 2015)

So sad to realize that is MC's work...his knives were always rustic, but that is one ****** grind...maybe he should stay off the tv and go back to what he used to do best...


----------



## ecchef (Aug 28, 2015)

Takeda, Carter...what's going on with some of the iconic makers these days?


----------



## brooksie967 (Aug 28, 2015)

ecchef said:


> Takeda, Carter...what's going on with some of the iconic makers these days?



Spill your beans, let's hear all the dirt


----------



## Dardeau (Aug 28, 2015)

Just search the Takeda drama.

It gets a little ugly.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Aug 28, 2015)

brooksie967 said:


> Spill your beans, let's hear all the dirt





Dardeau said:


> Just search the Takeda drama.
> 
> It gets a little ugly.



Allow me to share my story:




Hairline crack (right in the glare, the only way to make it visible), do not confuse for the scratch that is to the above and right



Same Knife as above, other side. You can see cracks radiating outwards from some small dents. Pretty much the same spot but on the other side.

And last but not least:



Scroll down



















A bit more

















I think this is a gyuto with dimples? I can't read kanji but this one has an 8th symbol, all other Gyutos I've seen have 7. Wonder what the 8th means :scratchhead:

These were all mine and were returned without issue, I'm very happy with how the situations were dealt with.

I still have a 270 NAS gyuto, and aside from the wee bit of decarburization between the cladding and core steel (which polished out nicely) and the slightest bend/twist between the cutting edge and spine (doesn't seem to affect cutting and I suppose could be bent back) it is a good knife and I'm keeping it.


----------



## TheDispossessed (Aug 28, 2015)

Don't get me started on Takeda.
you can buy $40 KU knives from Tosa with better grinds for kitchen use.


----------



## Dave Martell (Aug 28, 2015)

tjangula said:


> Allow me to share my story:
> 
> View attachment 28822
> 
> ...




What the hell happened to that?


----------



## Dave Martell (Aug 28, 2015)

Moritakeda?


----------



## heldentenor (Aug 28, 2015)

tjangula, one of the things I like about this group is that most of the guys are very intentional about not hanging on to blades they don't need. Just looking through what Rick, Huw, Chuckles, and Salty have sold over the years provides a catalog of excellent blades that found new homes because they didn't quite "fit" with the original user. 

I'm a big fan of keeping only what you want and will use, whether that's four blades or forty.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Aug 29, 2015)

Dave Martell said:


> What the hell happened to that?



Not really sure, I bet that 8th kanji character means "send to the scrap pile". After this size had been back ordered for some time, this was rush shipped to me before Xmas and I was told by the vendor with it being so hectic that time of year nobody inspected before sending. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt because they apologized and paid for the round or shipping and I got a discount on my replacement. I wasn't told to "try it out because it may be the best citing knife you've ever used". Maybe it would cut well until the edge snaps off along the perforations lol, but I wasn't going to find out


----------



## chinacats (Aug 29, 2015)

tjangula said:


> Not really sure, I bet that 8th kanji character means "send to the scrap pile". After this size had been back ordered for some time, this was rush shipped to me before Xmas and I was told by the vendor with it being so hectic that time of year nobody inspected before sending. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt because they apologized and paid for the round or shipping and I got a discount on my replacement. I wasn't told to "try it out because it may be the best citing knife you've ever used". Maybe it would cut well until the edge snaps off along the perforations lol, but I wasn't going to find out



Dude, you are so due for a great knife!


----------



## spoiledbroth (Aug 29, 2015)

Man tj. I am really sorry to hear this. I can sympathize inasmuch as my most expensive knife is only worth about 300 CAD (soon to be about 450 all in with Karl's handle)... but boy do I feel burned when I need to straighten a hundred dollar purchase or some such. It must be very frustrating to be told not to order anymore... I am kind of shocked to hear this about the venerable Murray Carter... It is sad he would treat a fellow countryman in such a manner and what's more when the item in question is clearly not going to be up to the standards of anyone who even knows what a MC knife is... For shame... :eyebrow: I am glad at least you got the initial purchase refunded. 

C'est la vie!


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Aug 29, 2015)

I'll be interested to see your rehandled knife once you get it back. As far as the Carter situation is concerned, I was initially surprised to hear that coming from him as well. Kinda made me wonder if I really am too picky since an ABS Mastersmith said that "we can't make the type of knife you're looking for" (or to the same effect). That's why I initially worded the thread with a subtle title, but now that KKF had confirmed what I had felt all along it could be changed to "Am I on Crack, or is This Choil Shot ****** Up?"

Bottom line is that should not have been sold as a first quality blade IMO.


----------



## Benuser (Aug 29, 2015)

A crazy left-handed geometry


----------



## spoiledbroth (Aug 30, 2015)

I am never sure when/if benuser is joking. -_-


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Aug 30, 2015)

It's almost like it was ground way too aggressively on the left side and then just a bit on the right side only towards the cutting edge. There was a hammer mark which made it look hollow, but that side was basically flat when placed on a glass plate (cutting edge was basically touching). Flip it over and there was quite the gap.


----------



## XooMG (Aug 30, 2015)

I think it's hard to judge a choil shot unless one is reasonably certain the choil represents the geometry a centimeter in front of the choil as well.

The asymmetrical grinding is not unusual.

If you don't like it, don't accept it. I wouldn't put much stock in the presumptuous assertions and judgements in the thread.


----------



## JBroida (Aug 30, 2015)

XooMG said:


> I think it's hard to judge a choil shot unless one is reasonably certain the choil represents the geometry a centimeter in front of the choil as well.
> 
> The asymmetrical grinding is not unusual.
> 
> If you don't like it, don't accept it. I wouldn't put much stock in the presumptuous assertions and judgements in the thread.



very well said


----------



## Timthebeaver (Aug 30, 2015)

Agree with this.

The choil shot tells you nothing about the geometry of the knife except for that right at the choil. I've never understood why people put so much faith in it. If the geometry is poor, or the grind is uneven, that's a different matter.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 30, 2015)

You guys make total sense and I believe what you are saying is understood by most. That said, I personally would be offended if I received that knife from a high end maker (Jon, you wouldn't send that to a customer, right?). Even if it were strictly cosmetic that is far beyond rustic in appearance and shows 1) a lack of effort in producing a quality product or 2) any attention to quality control. That knife if sold at all should be least listed it as a 'second' on the site. I would send it back without hesitation or use.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Aug 30, 2015)

I follow what everyone is saying about judging the knife based solely on the choil shot. I've only handled five carter knives, and this was unlike any I had ever seen. The choil aside, the right side was basically flat, I don't know how long you could realistically thin this knife being a double bevel San-Mai (I don't have the experience to make that call, but it came as a red flag). I don't doubt that the knife would cut (just about anything can cut), but this is not what I had come to expect from the maker given how it was sold and my past experiences. For a first quality blade at that price point, there is usually a bit more to the purchase than whether or not a knife will cut. 

When the knife was returned, I thought that was the end of it. I would never immediately turn to the forums to bring up such an issue as I wouldn't want to unduly affect someone's reputation. I wasn't even going to mention this experience as it started and (I thought) ended a couple months ago when the knife was returned, and I thought it all was resolved.

When I was admonished a couple months later over it, and also for not wanting the wrong replacement knife I was sent when I reordered (see my earlier long post for the chronology), I turned to KKF to get a second opinion on the matter. It sounds like the consensus is that the knife should not have been sold as a first quality blade and that I was patient throughout the ordeal, and that is all I really wanted to confirm.

At this point I don't know what if anything more can come from this thread, so if a moderator feels it should be locked, now may be a good time, but I will leave that decision up to the mod/admin team.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Aug 30, 2015)

I'm sure everyone here realises that the choil is not necessarily a good indicator of the overall geometry. 

A maker should realise though that it is one of the first things a buyer will inspect, so while the knife probably wasn't a lemon, I would have expected the maker to explain in the listing that there was this cosmetic defect.

I'm sure that none of the makers here would pass that off as a first quality blade without even notifying the buyer.

In any case artisan knives are not cheap and buyers want to feel good about their purchase. If you don't get that good feeling upon opening the box and instead feel like you received a defective product, the seller should work with and not chastise the buyer.


----------



## Timthebeaver (Aug 30, 2015)

If you wanted to return it, that's your prerogative - you are not happy with it, and it is a very expensive knife. No need to seek absolution for that.

I don't think informing the forums was a bad thing at all. I remember when Carter wasn't flavour of the month a few years back.


----------



## JBroida (Aug 30, 2015)

chinacats said:


> You guys make total sense and I believe what you are saying is understood by most. That said, I personally would be offended if I received that knife from a high end maker (Jon, you wouldn't send that to a customer, right?). Even if it were strictly cosmetic that is far beyond rustic in appearance and shows 1) a lack of effort in producing a quality product or 2) any attention to quality control. That knife if sold at all should be least listed it as a 'second' on the site. I would send it back without hesitation or use.



nah... but it has more to do with me than the reality of what a good knife is. I have personally seen and talked to many knifemakers in japan that sell knives looking like that or worse, and they have no problem, because they truly believe they made a good cutting knife (and often they have made a good cutter). As a matter of fact, we tend to be more uptight about aesthetics here in the US... because of that, as knife makers and retailers, we have to be aware of that and either cater to those needs or do a better job educating our customers as to why or why not something like that might be acceptable.


----------



## daveb (Aug 30, 2015)

Seems like a good end point. Thanks for the discussion - all of it.

If Murray wanted to present his perspective it would be welcome.


----------

