# Vegans and Knife Handles



## stopbarking (May 16, 2013)

I haven't been able to get a consensus at work so I thought I'd bring it here.

Plenty of our knives are handled with animal materials. It is a big deal at my work designating whether or not a dish is vegetarian, pescetarian, vegan, paleo, ovo-lacto-veg, etc. We have separate tongs and spoons for meat and veg dishes.

Can food be considered vegan if it is made with a knife with a bone handle?

I am in the boat where I think people having an issue with this are taking it a bit too far, but some of my vegan buddies wont eat at my house unless they bring their own pans for me to cook in. Is this the same kind of deal?


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## JohnnyChance (May 16, 2013)

Different pans/spoons are silly, but different. You aren't touching the food with the bone handle. I'm wearing an apron with leather straps, do I have to take that off?


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## El Pescador (May 16, 2013)

You need new friends...


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## ecchef (May 16, 2013)

El Pescador said:


> You need new friends...


lus1:


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 16, 2013)

stopbarking said:


> I am in the boat where I think people having an issue with this are taking it a bit too far...



+1



stopbarking said:


> ...but some of my vegan buddies wont eat at my house unless they bring their own pans for me to cook in. Is this the same kind of deal?



This sounds nuts to me. You offer to cook dinner for your friends, and they tell you that your pans are not acceptable? How are your pans not "vegan" enough?


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## apicius9 (May 16, 2013)

It cannot be vegan of the name of the cook is WOLFgang. Or the last name FISHer. Or the cook has a leathery skin from too much sun. 

Stefan


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## chinacats (May 16, 2013)

I am a sometimes vegetarian and did a stint of about 6 months vegan. It was difficult to say the least, but I think your friends are being ridiculous. I quit being vegan because I like to eat out way too much--and I really missed pork:eyebrow:


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## stopbarking (May 16, 2013)

apicius9 said:


> It cannot be vegan of the name of the cook is WOLFgang. Or the last name FISHer. Or the cook has a leathery skin from too much sun.
> 
> Stefan



This reply is extra funny because it is one of your handles in question Stefan. As a matter of fact I think I see it in your profile picture.


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## labor of love (May 16, 2013)

i was vegan for almost 4 years when i was in college and ive never heard of vegan pans! you have strange friends! i used to grill my veggie patties right next to hamburgers on the grill no problem.


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## stopbarking (May 16, 2013)

labor of love said:


> i was vegan for almost 4 years when i was in college and ive never heard of vegan pans! you have strange friends! i used to grill my veggie patties right next to hamburgers on the grill no problem.



Another point of contention at my job. One can request their vegan burger or toasted bun be done in pans in the prep kitchen instead of on the grill and flat top of our open line. Real pain in the ass if you are busy and down a cook or two.


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## apicius9 (May 16, 2013)

stopbarking said:


> This reply is extra funny because it is one of your handles in question Stefan. As a matter of fact I think I see it in your profile picture.



Uh oh... Well, while I am a bit cynical about it, I do understand the discussion. I have friends who live kosher or vegetarian for religious reasons (in India). Even if I am not religious at all, I have a much easier time follwing their rules than those of a person who just wants to be 'chique' and stand out. But should the reasons for peoples' decisions make a difference to the pros? Nice little ethics paper for students...

Stefan


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## stopbarking (May 16, 2013)

apicius9 said:


> Uh oh... Well, while I am a bit cynical about it, I do understand the discussion. I have friends who live kosher or vegetarian for religious reasons (in India). Even if I am not religious at all, I have a much easier time follwing their rules than those of a person who just wants to be 'chique' and stand out. But should the reasons for peoples' decisions make a difference to the pros? Nice little ethics paper for students...
> 
> Stefan



Strangely enough the Indian vegans at work are the least vocal and the ones to whom I would say the entire staff makes a concerted effort to please and quietly accommodate. There's another ethics paper...


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## danielomalley (May 16, 2013)

While I'm a meat lover these years, I was vegetarian from 14 to 24 and vegan for about half of that. The funny thing is that while I love meat these days, if you haven't eaten it for a long time, it begins to really feel gross. Even the smell of it stops being appealing. It never occurred to me to be upset of someone used a pan that had been used to cook meat, but cooking on a grill where meat is also being cooked did bother me at the time. It is a bit like the old days of sitting in a non-smoking section of a restaurant where the smoking section is 3 feet away and has a rope between. Those meat juices are all over the grill, so maybe there the vegans have a legitimate reason for requesting a vegi burger be cooked in a clean pan. These days, I'll grab the elk burger any day!

-daniel


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 16, 2013)

danielomalley said:


> Those meat juices are all over the grill, so maybe there the vegans have a legitimate reason for requesting a vegi burger be cooked in a clean pan.



I can definitely see a vegan/vegetarian not wanting to eat something cooked on a grill used for hamburgers, but a clean pan at a friend's house?

Actually, I'm renovating an apartment right now (that was fairly well trashed when I bought it), and one of the things on my list is to replace the perfectly functioning toilet. I could have it scrubbed by a professional for hours on end and still want it replaced. So maybe I should be a little more understanding here!


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## panda (May 16, 2013)

is it just me or is the original question in hand completely absurd? i can respect people not wanting to eat meat, but i swear some of them are so freaking annoying. separate pans... FU!! is what i would say. kosher... now that's an even higher level of irritating.


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 16, 2013)

panda said:


> kosher... now that's an even higher level of irritating.



I have been researching refrigerators (I need a new one), and came across a "feature" that I had to Google: "Sabbath mode."

No comment!


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## stopbarking (May 16, 2013)

danielomalley said:


> While I'm a meat lover these years, I was vegetarian from 14 to 24 and vegan for about half of that. The funny thing is that while I love meat these days, if you haven't eaten it for a long time, it begins to really feel gross. Even the smell of it stops being appealing. It never occurred to me to be upset of someone used a pan that had been used to cook meat, but cooking on a grill where meat is also being cooked did bother me at the time. It is a bit like the old days of sitting in a non-smoking section of a restaurant where the smoking section is 3 feet away and has a rope between. Those meat juices are all over the grill, so maybe there the vegans have a legitimate reason for requesting a vegi burger be cooked in a clean pan. These days, I'll grab the elk burger any day!
> 
> -daniel



This, I think, is is one of their major problems. Even if the other side of the grill is being used for meat the fat drips down and smokes onto the other side of the grill, flavoring the veg burger. For some of the militant vegans this angers them and somewhat understandably. It's like ordering a pizza half cheese and half anchovies. The other half of the pizza is going to be "tainted." I believe the knife question is along this line. I suppose I'll just bring it up with the chef and he'll probably just choose to not mention it. On the other hand, if somebody asks me about my knife handle within earshot of someone who takes issue with this I'll have no choice but to continue to tell them how awesome this handle is. I've had it for one day and this has already happened in my open kitchen.


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## sachem allison (May 16, 2013)

I was the Executive Chef at the Jewish Community Center of Manhattan. We had a Sabbath mode for our elevators, lights, computers, everything. The elevators would automatically stop at every floor and wait for the prescribed 2 minutes and then proceed to the next one. If you accidentally got into an up elevator and wanted to go down you would be trapped for 25 minutes in the elevator as it hit every floor up and every floor down. we were a dairy kitchen but, often times had Meat functions. we had to wrap the whole kitchen in aluminum foil and multiple layers of butcher paper and use the special certified Kosher Tape with the Rabbis seal on it. God help you if you had to have the ovens Koshered. You Payed for the Rabbi to sit in the middle of the kitchen with his special chair and table and eat and drink himself silly. Oh great times. Wait.... What was I saying?


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## labor of love (May 16, 2013)

stopbarking said:


> This, I think, is is one of their major problems. Even if the other side of the grill is being used for meat the fat drips down and smokes onto the other side of the grill, flavoring the veg burger. For some of the militant vegans this angers them and somewhat understandably. It's like ordering a pizza half cheese and half anchovies. The other half of the pizza is going to be "tainted." I believe the knife question is along this line. I suppose I'll just bring it up with the chef and he'll probably just choose to not mention it. On the other hand, if somebody asks me about my knife handle within earshot of someone who takes issue with this I'll have no choice but to continue to tell them how awesome this handle is. I've had it for one day and this has already happened in my open kitchen.


 for me being vegan was about making a difference in terms of economics. i wasnt worried about some trivival flavoring from some meat in the neighborhood of my soy burger but rather the politics of buying meat and participating in the industry itself.


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## scotchef38 (May 16, 2013)

sachem allison said:


> I was the Executive Chef at the Jewish Community Center of Manhattan. We had a Sabbath mode for our elevators, lights, computers, everything. The elevators would automatically stop at every floor and wait for the prescribed 2 minutes and then proceed to the next one. If you accidentally got into an up elevator and wanted to go down you would be trapped for 25 minutes in the elevator as it hit every floor up and every floor down. we were a dairy kitchen but, often times had Meat functions. we had to wrap the whole kitchen in aluminum foil and multiple layers of butcher paper and use the special certified Kosher Tape with the Rabbis seal on it. God help you if you had to have the ovens Koshered. You Payed for the Rabbi to sit in the middle of the kitchen with his special chair and table and eat and drink himself silly. Oh great times. Wait.... What was I saying?



You couldnt pay me enough to deal with that.


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## marc4pt0 (May 16, 2013)

I'm kind of refusing to taking off my leather clogs in order to cook a vegan dish for customers. Just ain't happenin


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## panda (May 16, 2013)

sabbath mode. ***, that makes me anti-religiously angry just reading about it.


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## cclin (May 16, 2013)

stopbarking said:


> .........Can food be considered vegan if it is made with a knife with a bone handle?
> I am in the boat where I think people having an issue with this are taking it a bit too far, but some of my vegan buddies wont eat at my house unless they bring their own pans for me to cook in.....



I'm curious how does your vegan/vegetarian friend taking medication when he has illness?? as far as I know, lots of medicine gelatin/capsules are made from/with animal's tissue/cell..... :eyebrow:


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## Salty dog (May 16, 2013)

The OP is in Texas? What the hell has happened to Texas?


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## unkajonet (May 16, 2013)

I think there are at 3 different things going on here, related but still separate. 

The "Sabbath mode" appliances are the industry's response to a specific request. The community's religious rules aren't affecting anyone outside of their own circle. It's not hurting anyone or breaking any laws. Apparently there was enough demand for the products in question that the industry was willing to make them. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?

The restaurant thing sounds like it's definitely going to affect the OP, but my question is: did you know it was like that when you first started working there? Or did the vegan tweaks happen after you'd already been employed there for a bit?

The friends who insist that you cook with the pans that they bring? Um...rude? If they are that picky, they can stop somewhere and get something to eat before they come to visit. They are coming to YOUR home. You are sooooooo not required to accommodate that tweak.


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## mhlee (May 16, 2013)

Johnny.B.Good said:


> I have been researching refrigerators (I need a new one), and came across a "feature" that I had to Google: "Sabbath mode."
> 
> No comment!



I had a fridge with this mode. No lie.


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## mzer (May 16, 2013)

A Sabbath mode on a fridge isn't exactly a big deal. It just makes the program not respond to the user for a period of time. Not sure how this is offensive.


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 16, 2013)

unkajonet said:


> The "Sabbath mode" appliances are the industry's response to a specific request. The community's religious rules aren't affecting anyone outside of their own circle. It's not hurting anyone or breaking any laws. Apparently there was enough demand for the products in question that the industry was willing to make them. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?



I'm not complaining about the fact that they exist, I just find it amusing/interesting that there is enough of a demand for it in the year 2013.


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## WildBoar (May 16, 2013)

Do the vegans think animals never die, and do not contain bones? If an animal with bone, tusk, etc. dies, why not preserve natural resources and repurpose the components that will not decay in the next 100 years? Do they really think it's okay a slay a denim tree in order to make blue jean micarta?


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## mhlee (May 16, 2013)

mzer said:


> A Sabbath mode on a fridge isn't exactly a big deal. It just makes the program not respond to the user for a period of time. Not sure how this is offensive.



I do not find it offensive at all. I was just pointing out that I owned a fridge with this feature.


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## xdrewsiferx (May 16, 2013)

I asked my wife who is a life long vegetarian what her view was on this after reading your post. Her responce was "That is stupid. If I was chewing on the Handel like a dog then that might be a different story"


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## Miles (May 16, 2013)

stopbarking said:


> I haven't been able to get a consensus at work so I thought I'd bring it here.
> 
> Plenty of our knives are handled with animal materials. It is a big deal at my work designating whether or not a dish is vegetarian, pescetarian, vegan, paleo, ovo-lacto-veg, etc. We have separate tongs and spoons for meat and veg dishes.
> 
> ...



Having lived and cooked in Portland for several years, I can understand the issues in your professional kitchen. Keeping things separate if your restaurant is of that philosophical bent or is catering to that crowd is perfectly understandable. While undoubtedly a pain in the backside, it's a reasonable accommodation if you are to attract and serve the folks who choose to adhere to those diets. I don't think that the material used for a knife handle has anything to do with the "status" of any dish prepared with it unless there's some kind of religious law which governs the type of tools used to prepare it. 

As for your vegan buddies??? NEVER cook for them again! 

Yes, there is definitely a point where people take things too far. If you come to my home for a meal, I will always make reasonable accommodations to your dietary needs. I've made my fair share of extra dishes to accommodate friends with allergies or with certain likes and/or dislikes because I want to be a good host. But bringing your own pans??? I absolutely would draw the line. If someone were to have the gall to bring special pans to my home? My answer would be to tell them "Either plan to use them to cook for yourself or bring your own food. I'm not cooking for you since clearly you don't value or appreciate my hospitality." Quite frankly, anyone who would go to such extremes isn't someone I'd likely care to be friends with anyway, so it's not likely to ever come up, but still...


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## Slypig5000 (May 16, 2013)

To Salty:
Manor is near Austin, TX. Its a different breed down here. 

I'm really curious what restaurant this is. East Side Cafe? Indian clientèle though, Clay Pit? I was thinking Bouldin Creek at first but that's straight up vegetarian. Funny, I can't really think of too many places here that are this accommodating. But then again my budgets pretty cheap.


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## chefwatson (May 16, 2013)

I believe the OP works at Apple. I hope I am not angering the OP by saying that.


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## stopbarking (May 16, 2013)

I do indeed work for Apple in the Cafe at the Austin headquarters. We have about 3500 people that work in the building and we try to accommodate most dietary needs, of which there are a large variety within this large group of people.

Dealing with this many needs has caused me to grow strangely worried about seemingly trivial things like bone knife handles.

Don't even get me started on how we just recently were allowed to serve beef, lamb, and pork.


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## crankypolly (May 16, 2013)

I'm one of those sometimes vegetarian/vegan people also. This question reminds me of going out to eat with friends. They asked for a straw since one didn't come in their drink. The server brought the straw on a napkin and then put it in my friend's drink herself. My friend was really offended. My reaction was - who do you think puts it in your drink in the kitchen???? I know why it is strange for the server to do that outside of the kitchen, but this scenario really drives home the point of how vegans have no control over what actually happens in a kitchen. Just hope for the best and what you don't know won't hurt you.

My suggestion for your friends is: buy gummy bears next time they come over and put them out on the counter in a bowl. If they eat them - they aren't really hard core vegans. There's gelatin in gummy bears. Do they wear leather shoes? Only use plastic wallets? 

Years ago my boss told me that they had two microwaves - one for her hubby's meat and one for her vegetarian meals. I thought it was funny. Waste of counter space in my opinion!


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## jared08 (May 16, 2013)

As per this "sabbath mode" BS...I find these people that created such a high demand for a product with this setting are just being pompous.. If they were so concerned about following their religion this strictly, their wouldnt be the need for "loop holes" to allow them to still use these devices and not violate religious law or whatever the hell it is..


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## Benuser (May 17, 2013)

jared08 said:


> As per this "sabbath mode" BS...I find these people that created such a high demand for a product with this setting are just being pompous.. If they were so concerned about following their religion this strictly, their wouldnt be the need for "loop holes" to allow them to still use these devices and not violate religious law or whatever the hell it is..


who the hell are you to tell others what are 'loop holes' and how they should follow their rules??


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## eshua (May 17, 2013)

Anyone making ethical decisions should do their best to make the most serious convictions accessible to those around them. 

This sounds like people doing a poor job of that.


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## Bill Burke (May 17, 2013)

When it comes down to the nitty gritty there is an animal preparing the food and it was most likely grown in some kind of animal waste/fertilizer so a bone or horn handle is little different. funny story about veg's/vegans. My oldest son has had two girl freinds one a vegan and the other a vegitarian. After being convinced to try one or the other of wild Bill's Free ranging elk recipes, (because something smells amazing) they are both now raving carnivores even though neither dates my son any longer. just goes to show they don't realize what they're missing.


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## Slypig5000 (May 17, 2013)

stopbarking said:


> I do indeed work for Apple in the Cafe at the Austin headquarters. We have about 3500 people that work in the building and we try to accommodate most dietary needs, of which there are a large variety within this large group of people.
> 
> Dealing with this many needs has caused me to grow strangely worried about seemingly trivial things like bone knife handles.
> 
> Don't even get me started on how we just recently were allowed to serve beef, lamb, and pork.



Right on, I see where the idea for the question came from. Apple seems like a pretty cool place to work, though it also sounds like you might have cooked a chicken or two in your time there as well.


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## Chefget (May 17, 2013)

Voluntary eating disorders suck

-Michael


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## WildBoar (May 17, 2013)

Chefget said:


> Voluntary eating disorders suck
> 
> -Michael


Sorry to hijack, but I just checked out the antrim1844 web site and your place looks great!


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## SpikeC (May 17, 2013)

If you slice off a little bit of finger tip and it falls into a dish, is it unethical to serve that dish to a vegan?


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## Salty dog (May 17, 2013)

I did the corporate dining thing for a bit. Ugh! Free lunch for the privileged. They spoil easily.


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