# First Wa style handle



## birdsfan (Jul 21, 2020)

Have been tinkering off and on with this handle for a few weeks. The handle body is katalox, very dense dark wood. The spacers are aluminum and g10, and the ferrule is horn. It was an interesting project. Trying to both size it to my hand and to try and maintain the balance point where I like it to be. Generally speaking, it is a decent 1st attempt.

Now I just have to fix the blade, which needs considerable work as well.


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## Tim Rowland (Jul 21, 2020)

Looks great especially for a 1st handle.
Nice job.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 21, 2020)

I agree with the previous post! I’d even say awesome!


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## billyO (Jul 21, 2020)

I'll agree also. Well done. Can't wait to see your 1st attempt at a forged pattern welded blade....


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## da_mich* (Jul 21, 2020)

Nice Work! I love WA-Handle making too.


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## birdsfan (Jul 21, 2020)

billyO said:


> I'll agree also. Well done. Can't wait to see your 1st attempt at a forged pattern welded blade....


It is a bit out of my wheel house now, but coincidentally I was just looking at YouTube videos about making a home made forge. Pretty interesting stuff! and not as expensive as I thought it would be. Just have to get over that fear of burning down my garage.


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## birdsfan (Jul 21, 2020)

For those who have done some Wa handles, are there any size conventions for specific kind of knives? This one fits my hand perfectly and puts the balance point right at the choil, but it is bigger than the original handle. I probably should have sought this advice before setting the handle but ….everything is clearer in hindsight.


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## da_mich* (Jul 21, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> For those who have done some Wa handles, are there any size conventions for specific kind of knives? This one fits my hand perfectly and puts the balance point right at the choil, but it is bigger than the original handle. I probably should have sought this advice before setting the handle but ….everything is clearer in hindsight.



For big Yanagiba or Deba knives most time i made it ~25*20*150mm. For mid size Yanagiba (up to 240mm) i made it ~22x18x130mm. If you have a Unagisaki the lenght is only ~100mm.

Big Handle:






Small Handle:



Unagisaki Handle:


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## birdsfan (Jul 21, 2020)

Thanks for the insights Da_MIch! This one is definitely big then for this size yanagiba by those standards.


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## da_mich* (Jul 21, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> Thanks for the insights Da_MIch! This one is definitely big then for this size yanagiba by those standards.



But the size depends on your hand size. If you have a Belt Sander you can simple shape some fake handles out of a single pice of wood. Then you can compare it with your hand size.
Did you saw my restoration thread? Maybe it helps you to create handles. Scroll down to bottom, today i posted a youtube video "*Misono ミソノ UX10 Restoration with Hilti WFO 280 !!!Volume Warning!!!"

Link:





Before after restauration


Maybe its interesting for someone who think his knife is done. You can save the most knives! Before: After: Before: After: Only After Pic (Knife was totaly chiped and scratched):



www.kitchenknifeforums.com




*
With the same method you can finish your WA-Handles. After the belt sander shaping (most time max. 600 grit) you can use this method to finish the handle. The wood,metal and horn shine like a mirror after ~2000 grit.


and sorry for my english, its not the best. I hope you can understand it


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## birdsfan (Jul 21, 2020)

I appreciate the video link. I had never considered using an oscillating sander like that. Very cool Idea. I stopped on this handle at 300 grit, mostly because I liked the grip of it. The blade however could benefit from that sort of grit progression. Thank you!


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## TreharnM (Jul 22, 2020)

Looks good! I like the wider spacer too.


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## birdsfan (Jul 22, 2020)

Thanks TreHarnM! I just used the metal bar stock that I had on hand, but at the end, it did have a sort of unique look.


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## Tim Rowland (Jul 22, 2020)

Size really does depend on the user and the blade.
Some knife shapes require a stronger taper to the handle and some less....(of course that is my Personal opinion.)

For general purposes on a 210mm-240mm Gyuto I usually go with:

150mm Long
(Rear) 24mm tall x 20mm wide
(Front) 22mm tall x 18mm wide

Nakiri/Bunka/Santoku I usually go with:

135mm Long
(Rear) 24mm tall x 20mm wide
(Front) 20mm tall x 16mm wide


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## gregfisk (Jul 22, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> It is a bit out of my wheel house now, but coincidentally I was just looking at YouTube videos about making a home made forge. Pretty interesting stuff! and not as expensive as I thought it would be. Just have to get over that fear of burning down my garage.


Nice looking handle, I really like the band combination you used.

I built a forge from watching YouTube videos and found this one. It was very easy to build and there’s no welding which I don’t do yet. I also built the burner from watching videos on those but this is before I installed it.


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## birdsfan (Jul 22, 2020)

Thanks Tim! your post also seems to confirm that this handle is a little big for a 240 yanagiba. It is more gyuto sized. It feels good to me, but then again, my knife rotation is heavily gyuto represented. I just started a 210 Tanaka yanagiba, and I will go smaller on that one and see how it feels.


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## birdsfan (Jul 22, 2020)

I think I watched the same video you did, because that design looks pretty familiar. I preferred the ones made with bricks rather than the tanks with the fire blanket. Excited to see some of your work!


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## gregfisk (Jul 22, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> I think I watched the same video you did, because that design looks pretty familiar. I preferred the ones made with bricks rather than the tanks with the fire blanket. Excited to see some of your work!


I saw the tanks as well but they looked too messy for my taste. This design is pretty straight forward to build. I changed mine slightly but it’s pretty much the same as the video I watched.


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## NO ChoP! (Jul 22, 2020)

None of those materials are the easiest to work with, making your success that much more awesome! 

I usually measure the handle I am replacing. Study it on the knife before I remove it; deciding if I wish it were 5mm longer, or 2mm thinner, or 2mm thicker, etc... 

I will use the knock off handle to compare as I progress. Trying to make a wa handle to exact specs can be difficult. Mostly, I do it by eye.


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## birdsfan (Jul 23, 2020)

Thank you NO ChoP! 

After getting so much insight, I am thinking that I will take it down a few millimeters just to be more consistent with convention. This is definitely more 210 gyuto sized. Do you all just eye-ball the 45 degree edges or do you use some sort of jig?


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## Tim Rowland (Jul 23, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> Do you all just eye-ball the 45 degree edges or do you use some sort of jig?



The most common way is to measure a few millimetres in from the edge and make a pencil mark, do this on all sides, connect to make a line, transfer those on the ends to show the angle and then grind to those lines...finish up by hand.


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## NO ChoP! (Jul 23, 2020)

I use 12" disc grinders that have table adjustments. I keep one set to 45° and check it often to make sure it's true. 

I chamfer by eye.


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## Bensbites (Jul 23, 2020)

I have a different jigs for each machine.


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## gregfisk (Jul 23, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> I use 12" disc grinders that have table adjustments. I keep one set to 45° and check it often to make sure it's true.
> 
> I chamfer by eye.


I haven’t made a wa handle yet but I also use multiple sanders to do my handle work. I too chamfer by eye because it ended up being faster than using a jig. I do draw lines on the end of the handle to sand to to get my angle right. I have three 6x48 sanders set up in a row with different grit paper on each. I guess when making wa handles you’d use the same grit and change one of the tables to a 45* angle.

how do you guys cut the slot in the end of the handle?


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## Tim Rowland (Jul 23, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> I haven’t made a wa handle yet but I also use multiple sanders to do my handle work. I too chamfer by eye because it ended up being faster than using a jig. I do draw lines on the end of the handle to sand to to get my angle right. I have three 6x48 sanders set up in a row with different grit paper on each. I guess when making wa handles you’d use the same grit and change one of the tables to a 45* angle.
> 
> how do you guys cut the slot in the end of the handle?



That depends on if you are doing the dowel method or not.
If doing a multi-piece handle the dowel method is probably the most popular/preferred method.
If doing a single piece, drilling and then slotting with a handle broach, then needle files/rasps.

BTW for setting the initial chamfer I use a router table then go to my 2x72.
I also don't do 45 deg. I use a 37.5deg bit as I prefer the feel opposed to the 45deg.
One of these days I will make a video or photo diary of my process start to finish.


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## da_mich* (Jul 23, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> Thank you NO ChoP!
> 
> After getting so much insight, I am thinking that I will take it down a few millimeters just to be more consistent with convention. This is definitely more 210 gyuto sized. Do you all just eye-ball the 45 degree edges or do you use some sort of jig?



I use a simple jig made out of a L-steel. For mark out the grinding line i use a height marker! Booth things are very important to make precise handles.


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## da_mich* (Jul 23, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> how do you guys cut the slot in the end of the handle?



i drill a small hole in the middle, heat up the tang with a induction heater and burn it in.

Ps: It works only with horn. But all my handles are with horn.


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## Bensbites (Jul 23, 2020)

da_mich* said:


> i drill a small hole in the middle, heat up the tang with a induction heater and burn it in.
> 
> Ps: It works only with horn. But all my handles are with horn.


You mean like an induction forge?


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## da_mich* (Jul 23, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> You mean like an induction forge?



yes, a 2000w induction forge from china. But i have only a 1000w supply. But 1000w is enough to heat up the tang very quickly.


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## Bensbites (Jul 23, 2020)

Can you Forge weld with it? 


da_mich* said:


> yes, a 2000w induction forge from china. But i have only a 1000w supply. But 1000w is enough to heat up the tang very quickly.


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## da_mich* (Jul 23, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> Can you Forge weld with it?



No, 1000w is not enough. but you can bring the tang near the melting point. I think 2000w is enough.
But I'm not a blacksmith. I only make handles and restore old knives


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## birdsfan (Jul 23, 2020)

I measured and marked the angles but keeping them really crisp was a challenge doing them by hand. My belt/disk sander doesnt have a 45 degree adjustment. I guess I will have to rig things up.


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## Bensbites (Jul 23, 2020)

da_mich* said:


> No, 1000w is not enough. but you can bring the tang near the melting point. I think 2000w is enough.
> But I'm not a blacksmith. I only make handles and restore old knives


I would love to forge weld 3-7 layer billets. I have thought about an induction forge. My goal now is to get my grinds as nice as my handles.


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## da_mich* (Jul 24, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> I would love to forge weld 3-7 layer billets. I have thought about an induction forge. My goal now is to get my grinds as nice as my handles.


 I found this cheap hobby induction forge. It has 2800W. I think this is the minimum power for forging.

Link:








ZVS Hochfrequenz-Induktionsheizgerät Maschine Metallschmelzofen Schweißen


Haupteigenschaften: 1. Mit Kurzschluss- und Überlastschutz 2. Großer Kühlkörper 3. Es gibt eine Spannungs- und Stromanzeige 4. Mit automatischer und Fußschalterheizung 5. Eingebaute Wasserpumpe ...




www.real.de


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## billyO (Jul 24, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> I would love to forge weld 3-7 layer billets. I have thought about an induction forge.


I'm not sure that an induction forge will be practical for home forge-welding, or even work. Heat isn't the most important thing when welding, it just makes things easier. In order to forge weld, a form of diffusion welding (which is really what forge welding is), you need what's known as a 'reducing atmosphere' which (for the purpose of this discussion) is an atmosphere without oxygen. The only way I can see doing that with an induction forge is to have the equipment in a tent or some other enclosure where an inert gas (like argon) is pumped in, forcing all oxygen out. Kinda like MIG/TIG welding or when welding titanium.\
Let me know if y'all want me to go into more detail on what diffusion (forge) welding is.


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## Bensbites (Jul 24, 2020)

billyO said:


> I'm not sure that an induction forge will be practical for home forge-welding, or even work. Heat isn't the most important thing when welding, it just makes things easier. In order to forge weld, a form of diffusion welding (which is really what forge welding is), you need what's known as a 'reducing atmosphere' which (for the purpose of this discussion) is an atmosphere without oxygen. The only way I can see doing that with an induction forge is to have the equipment in a tent or some other enclosure where an inert gas (like argon) is pumped in, forcing all oxygen out. Kinda like MIG/TIG welding or when welding titanium.\
> Let me know if y'all want me to go into more detail on what diffusion (forge) welding is.


While I understand what you are saying, standard forge welding is done in an large fire while blowing air/oxygen in. There are examples of people using induction forges for forge welding online/YT/blade forums.


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## gregfisk (Jul 24, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> I measured and marked the angles but keeping them really crisp was a challenge doing them by hand. My belt/disk sander doesnt have a 45 degree adjustment. I guess I will have to rig things up.


I think if you want to be precise you need a table or a jig. I actually really like how you rounded off the corners. I’m guessing it feels good in your hand as well.


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## birdsfan (Jul 24, 2020)

Admittedly, the rounded corners are what I was trying to avoid, from the standpoint of appearance, but they do feel really comfortable in hand. Next one might be one of those heart shaped half octagonals.


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## ian (Jul 24, 2020)

I had an octo handle arrive with super sharp corners recently. Had to round them a bit for comfort and now I love the feel of the handle.


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## birdsfan (Jul 24, 2020)

**Mental note** Next rounded off handle....post on BST and try to get Ian's attention.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 24, 2020)

Hot dog buns make great soft handles for those with delicate hands. Just saying


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## ian (Jul 24, 2020)

No sharp corners there. Delicious.


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## birdsfan (Jul 24, 2020)

Up until you get to that core steel.....crunch


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 24, 2020)

It also makes western to wa-conversion very easy.


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## birdsfan (Jul 24, 2020)

well that bun is a lot more comfortable than those knobby steel Global handles


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## da_mich* (Jul 24, 2020)

Don't remember me on Global knives . Global knives are a nightmare . It's the worst knife I have ever had. A 10$ Ikea knife is better.
Or this Porsche knives.... Jesus Christ please help us


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## Bensbites (Jul 24, 2020)

ian said:


> I had an octo handle arrive with super sharp corners recently. Had to round them a bit for comfort and now I love the feel of the handle.


most people like the ferrule rounded, but not the octaganals. I have been complimented on my nice crisp octagonals. that just didn't sound right...


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## ian (Jul 24, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> most people like the ferrule rounded, but not the octaganals. I have been complimented on my nice crisp octagonals. that just didn't sound right...



this one was mono. maybe it woulda been fine with just the top part of the edges rounded, but that seemed weird. (Or by ferrule rounded did you mean just the top edge, as opposed to the sides of the ferrule?)


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 25, 2020)

da_mich* said:


> Don't remember me on Global knives . Global knives are a nightmare . It's the worst knife I have ever had. A 10$ Ikea knife is better.
> Or this Porsche knives.... Jesus Christ please help us



I quite like mine actually. I prefer it over Ikea knives and Porsche.


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## billyO (Jul 25, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> While I understand what you are saying, standard forge welding is done in an large fire while blowing air/oxygen in. There are examples of people using induction forges for forge welding online/YT/blade forums.


Just so you don't think I'm a " 'net expert", I've got over 8 years experience blacksmithing and forge welding damascus billets, and yes, I use a propane forge with a forced air blower. What you might not understand is that in order to be successful you need to make sure there is no oxygen in the area of the weld, because Iron Oxide will prevent a successful weld, this is known as a 'reducing' atmosphere. So when we are using a propane or natural gas forge, we have to either increase the gas supply or decrease the air supply (or both) to make sure there is no oxygen in the forge itself. In the blacksmithing community, this is commonly referred to as the 'dragon's breath', which is nothing more than the excess fuel combining with oxygen outside of the forge and burning. 
I've not seen practical small shop induction forge welding, so I'll have to look for some videos to see what they are doing. Thanks.


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## billyO (Jul 25, 2020)

I just did a search for videos on using an induction heater for forge welding, and sorry to say, Bensbites, but found only one video where a blacksmith was using his induction heater to try to weld up a wheat twist handle. 
I'm still not convinced that would be useful or practical (and part of me want to question his experience with forge welding, because he failed to even mention if he cleaned the forge scale off the pieces to weld and didn't look like he used any sort of flux which does a good job both cleaning off contaminants and preventing oxygen from coming into contact with the weld surfaces). It took him a couple of tries to get the "weld" to stick which also makes me question the integrity of the weld. 

More importantly, however, is that he was using this technique on a decorative piece, not a tool that needs to hold up to sharpening and use. One thing that can happen, even to folks who have achieved their Master Smtih certification and who are following all the historical tried and true methods (reducing atmosphere, use of flux, etc), are inclusions, delaminations, or other bad welds that we sometimes don't discover until the final grinding/polishing of the blade. This then becomes one for the scrap bin. I'd like to see him cut through the weld and etch it with an acid to see how much of the steel was actually welded, and how much was held together just by the wraps getting mushed together, 

Finally, I met a couple of guys through the NWBA who make damascus billets for sale to knife makers, and AFAIK, they have not yet been able to be consistent with using their induction forges to weld up billets. I haven't talked to them in over a year, so it's possible they have figured it out since then. 

If you have any links to other videos where a smith is using the induction forge to weld, I'd love to see them.


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## Bensbites (Jul 25, 2020)

billyO said:


> I just did a search for videos on using an induction heater for forge welding, and sorry to say, Bensbites, but found only one video where a blacksmith was using his induction heater to try to weld up a wheat twist handle.
> I'm still not convinced that would be useful or practical (and part of me want to question his experience with forge welding, because he failed to even mention if he cleaned the forge scale off the pieces to weld and didn't look like he used any sort of flux which does a good job both cleaning off contaminants and preventing oxygen from coming into contact with the weld surfaces). It took him a couple of tries to get the "weld" to stick which also makes me question the integrity of the weld.
> 
> More importantly, however, is that he was using this technique on a decorative piece, not a tool that needs to hold up to sharpening and use. One thing that can happen, even to folks who have achieved their Master Smtih certification and who are following all the historical tried and true methods (reducing atmosphere, use of flux, etc), are inclusions, delaminations, or other bad welds that we sometimes don't discover until the final grinding/polishing of the blade. This then becomes one for the scrap bin. I'd like to see him cut through the weld and etch it with an acid to see how much of the steel was actually welded, and how much was held together just by the wraps getting mushed together,
> ...


Thank you for digging into this. I am months to years from starting my forge setup.


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## birdsfan (Aug 6, 2020)

Just made another wa style for a project knife. Used curly mango for the handle body, and accented it with a brass face plate and mosaic pin. The brass plate worked out better in my mental design than it did in production, but it still looks pretty cool.


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## gregfisk (Aug 6, 2020)

I made a tool using a trim router to cut the tang slot in the end cap. It works really well but I still want to build a small cnc to do that job and others.

I think your handle turned out great and you’ve inspired me to try making a wa handle. I’ve been making oval handles using epoxy resin but they won’t get any love around here. My avatar shows one of them in a copper color.


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## birdsfan (Aug 6, 2020)

Thanks Greg! Yeah... cutting the slot was the challenging part. I drilled a hole and used a dremel tool to cut the slot, and there is a little too much play between the tang and the slot. It is sealed and tight, but aesthetically it was not as good as I had hoped.

People here do tend to favor natural wood over resin. I personally think they are both cool, and the one on your avatar looks awesome. I have actually just bought and modified a Harbor Freight pressure pot to try some resin casting. I have some really spalted, partially deteriorated wood that might look cool stabilized then cast in some sort of dyed resin.


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## gregfisk (Aug 6, 2020)

I’ve been thinking about getting one of those pressure pots as well. They work well for casting since they eliminate the bubbles.

For me figuring out how to make something and making the tools to make that happen is even more fun than the actual thing I’m making.

Keep posting your new handles as you make them. It’s fun to see what you come up with


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## birdsfan (Aug 6, 2020)

And as you come up with tools, I would love to see those. In fact if you could post some images of the tool that you made to cut the tang slot, I think a lot of people in the forum would love to see it. From what I have read in the threads, that seems to be a challenge for most of us amateur tinkerers. Other than those lucky enough to have a milling machine


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## gregfisk (Aug 6, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> And as you come up with tools, I would love to see those. In fact if you could post some images of the tool that you made to cut the tang slot, I think a lot of people in the forum would love to see it. From what I have read in the threads, that seems to be a challenge for most of us amateur tinkerers. Other than those lucky enough to have a milling machine


If you look at the thread I started (how to cut slots in Japanese collars) I have a few pictures there. Sorry I don’t know how to link it. Here’s one that I took with the new addition of lock down knobs. It really does work well and was easy to make.


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## Kippington (Aug 6, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> And as you come up with tools, I would love to see those. In fact if you could post some images of the tool that you made to cut the tang slot, I think a lot of people in the forum would love to see it. From what I have read in the threads, that seems to be a challenge for most of us amateur tinkerers. Other than those lucky enough to have a milling machine


Have you got a drill press?


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## birdsfan (Aug 6, 2020)

Thanks Greg, I found the thread. Your set up works much better than my dremel by hand method. Had no problem using the dremel on horn, but this brass was a B****


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## birdsfan (Aug 6, 2020)

I have the oldest drill press you may ever have seen. My father got it when he was 16, and he is 85 now. It was an antique when he bought it. Really, I should post a picture of it because you just don't see tools like this anymore.


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## Kippington (Aug 6, 2020)

Sweet, you can buy one of these for like $15, called a Dremel Ceramic Wall Tile Tungsten Carbide Bit.
Put it in your drill press chuck after you've drilled out some holes for the tang slot in your end cap. You can connect the holes with it, and I'm sure you can set up some kind of jig on your drill press table to (semi) accurately make the tang slot wider. It's like a poor man's mill.





It may not be the best option out there, but it's outstandingly good considering the amount you spend. Just make sure that it's thinner than the spine on your knives.


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## juice (Aug 6, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> I have the oldest drill press you may ever have seen. My father got it when he was 16, and he is 85 now. It was an antique when he bought it. Really, I should post a picture of it because you just don't see tools like this anymore.


#JustDoIt


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## gregfisk (Aug 6, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> Thanks Greg, I found the thread. Your set up works much better than my dremel by hand method. Had no problem using the dremel on horn, but this brass was a B****


The good thing about it is that it makes a perfect slot. The bad thing is it’s pretty much limited to that task. This is what I want to build next but without buying the $550.00 kit.
I’m going to source the parts myself and change it up a bit to keep the costs down. Wanted to add that I’ll use my current trim router since it has speed control. 

I would like to see your drill press too


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## birdsfan (Aug 7, 2020)

Thank you for the tip Kippington! Since it is tungsten carbide I imagine it would work on soft metals as well right?


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## Matt Jacobs (Aug 7, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> Have been tinkering off and on with this handle for a few weeks. The handle body is katalox, very dense dark wood. The spacers are aluminum and g10, and the ferrule is horn. It was an interesting project. Trying to both size it to my hand and to try and maintain the balance point where I like it to be. Generally speaking, it is a decent 1st attempt.
> 
> Now I just have to fix the blade, which needs considerable work as well.
> 
> ...


this is beautifully done


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## birdsfan (Aug 7, 2020)

Hey thanks Matt! I appreciate that!


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## birdsfan (Aug 7, 2020)

as requested.....my antique drill press...


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## gregfisk (Aug 7, 2020)

Very cool!


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## Tim Rowland (Aug 8, 2020)

Awesome, I love antique tools.


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## birdsfan (Aug 8, 2020)

The thing still works like a horse. It has been fixed and rigged, but it will probably outlive me.


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