# Steel Composition of Your Next Knife?



## menzaremba (Aug 26, 2014)

New steels are showing up all the time, and old ones seem to fade in and out of favor. My question is, if you had a to pick the steel composition of your next knife today, what would it be and why? Would it be clad? Monosteel?


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## menzaremba (Aug 26, 2014)

I suppose I should answer. I'd like to try something in clad White #1. I have several other carbon knives, and I'd like to see if I'm good enough on the stones to feel a difference in the edge.


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## Zwiefel (Aug 26, 2014)

Steel type doesn't matter much to me as long as the maker is knowledgeable and skilled in heat-treating whatever it is, and it fits in the broad category I'm looking for: stainless, semi-stainless, carbon.

:2cents:


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## panda (Aug 26, 2014)

the hell with new steels


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## menzaremba (Aug 26, 2014)

panda said:


> the hell with new steels



Tamahagane or go home? :biggrin:


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## XooMG (Aug 26, 2014)

Bronze takes an awesome edge.

There are too many good choices out there to make a decision based on that. My two pending acquisitions are monosteel in CTS-XHP and W2. The rest of my collection is clad.

Plenty of other things to worry about...steel choice is not a high priority.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Aug 26, 2014)

I'll get one in unobtanium. Hardened in unicorn's blood to 88HRC. With very thin flexible tip. 

The knives that I'm planning to get are made out of A2 and AEB-L.


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## erickso1 (Aug 26, 2014)

I have two on order in AEB-L. But the latest knife I got was made of vintage Hi-Carbon.


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## mr drinky (Aug 26, 2014)

Some Devin mystery metal would be my choice, but I would agree with Zwiefel that the maker matters more. With that said, I tend to favor 52100 straight -- just like my vodka. 

k.


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## mkriggen (Aug 27, 2014)

I would like to get another knife in ZDP-189. I have a 6" Miyabi in it and it's amazing. Holds an edge forever and not chippy at all.

Be well,
Mikey


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## tim37 (Aug 27, 2014)

I would go with S35VN. May not be as hair splitting sharp as AEB-L at first but will stay very sharp for a much longer time.
Tim


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## MAS4T0 (Aug 27, 2014)

I've got two knives on order, one is clad with a super blue core and the other is straight 52100.

I have had great experiences with 52100; it takes a very fine edge, has great edge retention and doesn't chip. It's also relatively unreacrive and seems almost semi-stainless when compared with some other carbon steels. I can't comment though on how much of this is the steel and how much is down to the maker having really dialed in the heat treatment.

I would like to get something in Cowry-X as I am curious, however I don't think that the metal is even produced anymore...


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## James (Aug 27, 2014)

MAS4T0 said:


> I would like to get something in Cowry-X as I am curious, however I don't think that the metal is even produced anymore...



I'd love to to get a hattori KD. Dave had a lot of praise for hattori's cowry-x heat treatment.


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## pennman (Aug 28, 2014)

tim37 said:


> I would go with S35VN. May not be as hair splitting sharp as AEB-L at first but will stay very sharp for a much longer time.
> Tim



Actually AEBL is better for edge holding. I have knives from both. And both heat treated by Peter's. AEBL holds the edge better and longer.


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## panda (Aug 28, 2014)

aeb-l has horrible edge holding.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Aug 28, 2014)

panda said:


> aeb-l has horrible edge holding.


nope. It hold edge pretty good when properly heat treated.


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## echerub (Aug 28, 2014)

Zwiefel said:


> Steel type doesn't matter much to me as long as the maker is knowledgeable and skilled in heat-treating whatever it is, and it fits in the broad category I'm looking for: stainless, semi-stainless, carbon.



+1

Of course, part of that also stems from the fact that I have had a chance to check out a variety of steels to get over the "steel focus" that many of us get at some point in our journeys.


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## Lefty (Sep 2, 2014)

Don't care. Carbon or stainless, and then it's up to the maker.


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## easy13 (Sep 2, 2014)

I'd like to try something else in SKD, it ain't the sexiest of steels and my only experience with it is my Yoshikane but that thing holds a nice edge for a damn long time, is hard - hrc 64, and no problems with chippiness


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## labor of love (Sep 2, 2014)

Certain but not all SKD, Ginsanko, and Swedish Steel are great. Along with the Suisin Inox Honyaki steel. All my other faves are full carbon.


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## rick alen (Sep 3, 2014)

I'd say HAP40 is the new darling for kitchen knives, if it is as easy to sharpen as cktg makes it out to be. Otherwise it's just another fabulously fine-grained and durable PM steel. Conventional carbon steel will always have a nostalgic appeal as well as being all anyone really needs, but technology really does make things better.


Rick


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## chefcomesback (Sep 3, 2014)

What I have observed so far with the kitchen cutlery is lot of the successful makers are rightfully conservative with their steel selection although newer and better on the paper steels are emerging. At the end heat treatment is the determining factor for me. I will take well treated vg10 like hattori a to a average treated super steel any day 


Sent from my iPhone using Kitchen Knife Forum


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 3, 2014)

rick alen said:


> I'd say HAP40 is the new darling for kitchen knives, if it is as easy to sharpen as cktg makes it out to be. Otherwise it's just another fabulously fine-grained and durable PM steel. Conventional carbon steel will always have a nostalgic appeal as well as being all anyone really needs, but technology really does make things better.
> 
> 
> Rick




Lol


When it comes to making a great knife, the guy working the steel is infinitely more important than the type of steel.

Say no to steel hype.


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## Lizzardborn (Sep 3, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> Lol
> 
> 
> When it comes to making a great knife, the guy working the steel is infinitely more important than the type of steel.
> ...



On the other side without healthy appetite for new types of steel, profiles and geometry, no one will bother to invest in innovation.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Sep 3, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> Lol
> When it comes to making a great knife, the guy working the steel is infinitely more important than the type of steel.
> Say no to steel hype.



nobody talks about hype here. We talk about different steels. Most knife makers works with different types of steel, so your you still have a choice of different steels. Knives from the same maker made using different steels would behave differently, so for me it does makes sense to care about steel type.


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 3, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> nobody talks about hype here. We talk about different steels. Most knife makers works with different types of steel, so your you still have a choice of different steels. Knives from the same maker made using different steels would behave differently, so for me it does makes sense to care about steel type.



I've been on the forums in their various guises since 2007, so I've seen plenty of steel hype. Granted it has died down here (not so much elsewhere). 

Steel composition is interesting, but also is used to misinform and mislead, as it's easy to quantify (unlike e.g. geometry, heat-treat) and so seized upon by measurebators.

In the list of what makes a great knife I don't believe it's one of the more important factors.


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## rick alen (Sep 3, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> Lol
> 
> 
> When it comes to making a great knife, the guy working the steel is infinitely more important than the type of steel.
> ...




From what I've seen there is at least as much "maker" hype in this world as steel hype.


Rick


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 3, 2014)

Maybe I am naïve, don't most high end knives have good heat treatment. Even mass produced stamped out knives in good steel go through well known temp. changes. Each during very specific periods of time to maximize the potential of the knife.


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## Zwiefel (Sep 3, 2014)

keithsaltydog said:


> Maybe I am naïve, don't most high end knives have good heat treatment. Even mass produced stamped out knives in good steel go through well known temp. changes. Each during very specific periods of time to maximize the potential of the knife.



I'm not knowledgeable enough to agree or disagree...but precisely controlled, consistent heat-treament does not mean desirable heat-treatment.


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## MAS4T0 (Sep 3, 2014)

keithsaltydog said:


> Maybe I am naïve, don't most high end knives have good heat treatment. Even mass produced stamped out knives in good steel go through well known temp. changes. Each during very specific periods of time to maximize the potential of the knife.



They should be...

Some modern steels can be very expensive to heat treat properly as they require multiple cycles at very finely controlled temperatures and special measures such as a cryo quench to bring out their full potential. There are many steps other than hardening required for a good heat treatment which some manufactures tend to overlook so long as their HRc is where they're aiming. A poor heat treat carried out consistently just guarantees lots of poorly heat treated blades.

The other thing is that the heat treat can optimise certain features of the steel. Even assuming a good heat treat, the manufacturer may not be optimising the same aspect as you would like, or get the balance different to what you would like. There's a reason why a Shun will often be chippy with the same steel and similar hardness to other knives which have no chipping issues. 

Basically, with modern equipment all manufacturers have the capability to carry out very close to a perfect heat treatment, but whether they actually decide you go to the effort and expense of doing so is a different matter. I guess it also depends on what price point would be considered high-end, I doubt there are too many knives above $1k where the manufacturer cut corners on the heat treat.


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 4, 2014)

Thanks. Don't really know if different steel alloy's use variations in heat treatment. It does not make sense if the science is out to cut corners, esp. with non cheap stainless knives. 

Stainless knives had a bad rap with good reason as compared with the performance of Carbons until the 1950's. Emerson Case of Robeson Cutlery using 440-c steel created Robeson Frozen Heat Process vastly improving Stainless Cutlery. High heat, freeze - 100% F. 45 minutes, heat treated again cooled to room temperature and tempered by reheating again.

Variations of this process are still used today. With the advent of new steels, stainless cutlery is better now that it ever has been in the past. The VG-10 in Tojiro cleavers is excellent. The SRS-15 steel has good edge retention and is easy to sharpen a winning combination.


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## Karnstein (Sep 4, 2014)

I'm a nostalgic person when it comes to knives, so I prefer to stick with carbon steel of any kind. Always reminds me of my Grandma cooking... 

Cheap c80 carbon, shirogami oder aogami super doesn't really matter, as long at it's a carbon steel... Next one will most likely be a Herder K2 (small German company), hardened to ~61 HRC... which is quite good for a euro-knife.


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## riba (Sep 4, 2014)

Karnstein said:


> Next one will most likely be a Herder K2 (small German company), hardened to ~61 HRC... which is quite good for a euro-knife.


FWIW, I find my k2's edge retention rather disappointing


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## Karnstein (Sep 4, 2014)

riba said:


> FWIW, I find my k2's edge retention rather disappointing




carbon or SS version? I do have the carbon Nakiri from the "standard" line-up and can't say anything bad about edge retention in a home kitchen.


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## riba (Sep 4, 2014)

Karnstein said:


> carbon or SS version? I do have the carbon Nakiri from the "standard" line-up and can't say anything bad about edge retention in a home kitchen.


it is the carbon version.


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## The Edge (Sep 4, 2014)

Steel is an important factor in knives. I've seen multiple threads where someone has been disappointed in what they bought, and even sending it to another maker to try and get a proper heat treat on it has been fruitless. That being said, even after picking a great steel, heat treatment is the largest factor in going forward. From what I've been told, different batches of the same steel may need slight modifications in the heat treatment to bring out the absolute best in that steel. The makers I've talked to have often taken years of research, trying multiple processes, and studying the effects of what they've done to feel confident in what they send out the door. I don't think you get the same attention to detail in anything mass produced, and why you'll also see slight variations in product (even though there are very tight controls on the machinery taking care of the process).


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## vai777 (Sep 4, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> Lol
> 
> 
> When it comes to making a great knife, the guy working the steel is infinitely more important than the type of steel.
> ...



"The guy working the steel" will only turn out the best that steel is capable of. SRS-15 and now HAP40 crush any other steel in terms of edge retention in a kitchen environment. Both are also easy to sharpen. I've had knives by many famous makers, and the only maker that comes close to these (mass produced, but not really) powdered steel knives is Itou's R-2 Damascus. Not the Carters, or Watanabes, or Suisin customs, or Hattori KD'S (yes you read that correctly)... NONE OF THEM... PERIOD!!! So yeah the maker has a lot to do with it, but for me the right steel has just as much to do with it.


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## stevenkelby (Sep 26, 2014)

I agree with the last 2 posts.

White #1 for carbon, ZDP-189 for semi/SS are my favorites so far and also the steels I plan to buy next.

I very much look forward look forward to trying HAP40 as well.

To me the most important part of a knife is the cutting edge, it's ability to take a sharp edge (fine grain) and it's ability to retain it (hardness + toughness). A better steel will do a better job of that.

Better steels are better!

I would have thought it obvious that it's necessary for the maker, heat treater and sharpener to "get the most out of the steel" in order for the user to "get the most out of the steel" but maybe some people disagree?

Murray has a talk where he says even the best heat treaters waste a lot of knives by going too far, so it's cheaper and safer to get less out of a steel in heat treat, and not maximize it's performance potential, but maximize saleability of every blade, and minimize chipping/warranty claims. I'll go find the talk.

I agree there is as a lot of maker hype as well as steel hype, but get your head out of the sand. New steels are better than old steels, more expensive steels are better than cheaper steels, harder steels are better than softer steels


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## chinacats (Sep 26, 2014)

The best steel period is that which the maker is most comfortable using. 

But to answer the original ? of the thread, my current favorite is 1.2442 from Tilman Leder, the choice of steel for my next knife is tbd!


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## Mangelwurzel (Sep 26, 2014)

chinacats said:


> The best steel period is that which the maker is most comfortable using.
> 
> But to answer the original ? of the thread, my current favorite is 1.2442 from Tilman Leder, the choice of steel for my next knife is tbd!



Chinacats, on your recommendation a while back I ordered a custom suji from Tilman in 1.2442 and instead he offered me a super high purity carbon steel called SC-145. Think white #1 without the impurities (apparently only one tonne of it was made)! Of course, I took him up on the offer . Can't wait to receive it!


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## stevenkelby (Sep 26, 2014)

chinacats said:


> The best steel period is that which the maker is most comfortable using.



I don't understand that, if the maker has 50 years experience with 440C and is most comfortable with that and makes *his *best knives with it, that doesn't make 440C a better steel than CPM154, does it? 

Sorry for seeming to be argumentative but I just don't understand the point you're making. 

In my opinion, that hypothetical maker should be using a steel that is modern and better. 440C might be best for *him *but it's not the best steel.


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## Sam Cro (Sep 26, 2014)

The Edge said:


> Steel is an important factor in knives. I've seen multiple threads where someone has been disappointed in what they bought, and even sending it to another maker to try and get a proper heat treat on it has been fruitless. That being said, even after picking a great steel, heat treatment is the largest factor in going forward. From what I've been told, different batches of the same steel may need slight modifications in the heat treatment to bring out the absolute best in that steel. The makers I've talked to have often taken years of research, trying multiple processes, and studying the effects of what they've done to feel confident in what they send out the door. I don't think you get the same attention to detail in anything mass produced, and why you'll also see slight variations in product (even though there are very tight controls on the machinery taking care of the process).



I have to Agree with you and MOST ALL Knife Makers that Produce their Own Pattern Welded Steel have Done Just as you have posted and WILL NOT let their Information of Development of their Steel out to protect their Steel from Industrial Theft as well as it being Stolen from them and "Mass Produced " By Companies (Local or FOREIGN) that will Steal,Cheat,and Rob you of your Developed Personal Steel and Give the Original Maker of said Steel Nothing But a Bad Reputation . and Ruin the Makers Best Known Product .

Your Quest for the Best steel for Knives is Truly by Opinion of as many folks there in the World and their Preference.

Ret, Sgt. Yates

And Yes ! I too Have My very own "Mix of Steel " I have made for my knives that I solely Produce . Yet will Not Share the Composition with others as they would Exploit ,Steal, and Ultimately Destroy my ability to produce Very High Quality Knives that are Unique to My abilities, and Shop .


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## chinacats (Sep 27, 2014)

stevenkelby said:


> I don't understand that, if the maker has 50 years experience with 440C and is most comfortable with that and makes *his *best knives with it, that doesn't make 440C a better steel than CPM154, does it?
> 
> Sorry for seeming to be argumentative but I just don't understand the point you're making.
> 
> In my opinion, that hypothetical maker should be using a steel that is modern and better. 440C might be best for *him *but it's not the best steel.



This doesn't seem argumentative and I hope you don't take my reply that way either. :biggrin:

I try to put a bit of my reality in my hypothetical. So let's approach it from a different angle. First thing to consider is which makers would be on my list? I've had a few customs and am on a few more lists...most are makers here. The next question would be which steels do they prefer to work with and then what would be there choice of steel once I decide on carbon or stainless. 

For example, I have a new Catcheside almost finished and the core steel is O-1. Now I know from Gator that there are many steels that should be 'better,' I also know that Will prefers to use O-1. Now I've used O-1 and I'm sure maybe another ten or so different 'carbon' steels and I couldn't say that I always prefer one over the other. I leave that part to the professional and say, "what do you like to use?" 

I think the other approach is kind of like getting a lawyer and telling him the strategy to use when going to court or telling a doctor what you think the best course of treatment should be.

In narrowing the list of makers, the steels they use may be part of the consideration, maybe not. I don't know of any makers that would be using 440c and if that was there preferred steel then likely that be enough to tell me that I'm probably not interested in their knives. If you find a maker that you like, you probably like the steels they use as well.

As an aside, I think my favorite steel overall is AO Super, but still haven't found the right knife for me in that steel so of all my gyutos, none are Blue Super.


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## stevenkelby (Sep 27, 2014)

Thanks, that makes sense. 

No point asking a maker to use a certain "better" steel if they won't get the best from it.

I wonder if there is some conflict between what makers want and what users want. Some steels are very difficult to make a knife with.

Some people say certain steels are very hard to sharpen. To me that means they are also hard to blunten! I have no problem sharpening 90v, 110v etc, they take a lot longer to sharpen, but that's not important (to me). How long they stay sharp in use is what matters to me. A lot of makers don't want to use those types of steel though, not worth the added effort I guess.





I have the full set of Hiromotos in AS and like them, but they all do need to be thinned quite a bit to get the most out of them, IMO. I thinned the 270mm gyuto and 300mm sujihiki an awful lot, hours of work, but fantastic now, effortless cutters and the steel does hold an edge for a decent while. I like a 2000-3000 edge finish, seems to last longer than going to 8k+ on these knives.

As stock, they are more of a workhorse grind, and maybe the steel isn't taken to 100% of it's potential but it's close. 

Anyway, I can recommend the Hiromotos if you like AS steel


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 28, 2014)

vai777 said:


> "The guy working the steel" will only turn out the best that steel is capable of. SRS-15 and now HAP40 crush any other steel in terms of edge retention in a kitchen environment. Both are also easy to sharpen. I've had knives by many famous makers, and the only maker that comes close to these (mass produced, but not really) powdered steel knives is Itou's R-2 Damascus. Not the Carters, or Watanabes, or Suisin customs, or Hattori KD'S (yes you read that correctly)... NONE OF THEM... PERIOD!!! So yeah the maker has a lot to do with it, but for me the right steel has just as much to do with it.



I like knives that cut well, such as a thin blade Ginga in stain resistant & Sakai Yusuke in carbon. Nothing like a thin sharp blade & damp towel cutting sushi rolls. For most jobs like a thicker spine with a high bevel so thin behind the edge where it counts. So geometry tailored for certain jobs think is important.

I sharpened my first Kohetsu AS about 10 months ago impressed with the grind, Cook using it for a majority of his cutting. Quite a few have bought them in both 210 & 240 in AS steel. My first SRS-15 steel got on your reccom. Have also sharpened a cooks Hap40 240mm. I agree that both are easy to sharpen. I like to finish this quality stainless off on gesshin 4K stone & leather strop for razor edges. Have used the SRS-15 knife quite a bit it is top of the line stainless. The Hap40 unclad edge takes a lite patina cutting all kinds of food.


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