# Thinning or wide-bevel on double-beveled knife without shinogi line



## Konge (Oct 10, 2017)

What an elegant title. But really, I am asking because of my first foray into Japanese knives. This 240 Kurosaki AS gyuto: https://imgur.com/a/3TGGh

As you can see, there are some scratches/blemishes on the jigane. This was because I for some reason assumed it was zero ground and just slapped it as flat on the stone as I could for my very first sharpening session. It didn't take long for me to figure out I'd gone wrong somewhere. So for the past couple of years, I've solely sharpened the cutting bevel. No thinning, no fancy stuff.

And now I've found this place, where showing off flawless kasumi is apparently the norm. Now, my question is how to get started on stuff like that with double-beveled knives. I saw someone doing videos about kasumi/jnat-stuff on a moritaka petty (which I also own), but that doesn't really come with a shinogi line (unless my definition of such is too rigid). Do you sort of "make" one yourself, going quite aggressive at the beginning, thinning it until you've sort of made it into a wide-beveled knife? Or do you just slap it on a stone and ride the blade road? Basically, what constitutes a wide-beveled knife where you could do the single-bevel style sharpening on both sides?

Of course, I'd like to be able to fix the cosmetic stuff on the Kurosaki I linked, and I hope that makes sense within the context of the question - otherwise, feel free to point me towards terms/resources which can point me in the right direction.

I hope I haven't misused or misunderstood any terms and that my question makes sense.


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## inzite (Oct 10, 2017)

you can zero it or just blend the bevels.


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## geoff_nocon (Oct 10, 2017)

Just zero grind then fingerstones. I do it on most of my knives convex and wide bevels. Im pretty sure the moritaka has somwhat a shinogi its just not as pronounce as others( use to own a cleaver). Just lay it flat on a stone then grind away. Also owned a kurosaki before same as yours just the hammered KU version. Hard to get a perfect kasumi at first, mine had some lowspots and will take time to even out.


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## tommybig (Oct 11, 2017)

My two Moritakas are basically wide bevels but came with larger low spots. In a way you could call it a concave grind. I flattened it and took out all the low spots, those were not very deep. The shinogi like is pretty much along the kurouchi line.
Pictures here Moritaka 

My Kurosaki is basically a wide bevel too, a little more convex but also with some lowspots (similar to what geoff said). I did almost the same thing, just that i fokussed a bit on retaining the convex by doing both, shinogi line sharpening and edge sharpening.
Picures here Kurosaki

Took me about 2 hours each. Once you start, its not that hard. The Moritaka was the first time i did a complete progression like this. Give it a shot.


Oh and btw i bought the Kurosaki KU hammered knife from Geoff and sold it because it was too big for me. But the finish he did looked terrific. Here is a picture of that one:


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## Konge (Oct 11, 2017)

Very helpful, Tommy, thanks. The pictures really help hammer in the point. Do you not sharpen the cutting bevel at all? Just straight zero grind all the way from shinogi to edge? Luckily, this is much simpler than I anticipated  Now just to get the proper stones. Perhaps I should spring on XooMG's from the BST :whistling:


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## tommybig (Oct 11, 2017)

I micro bevel the cutting edge after im done with the wide bevels using one fine stone (6000+ or natural). This takes only a few strokes. I would not recommend using a zero grind without a micro bevel.


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## Konge (Oct 11, 2017)

Right, since I'm practically starting from scratch regarding stones, I seem to have a great opportunity to tailor this to my needs. How does this sound: JNS 800/1000, perhaps a synth red aoto? or can I make do with a BBW I have?, then some form of natural (perhaps the uchi, I mentioned) and perhaps this: http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/tomo-nagura-extra/ for finishing the micro-bevel?

edit: and will this be moderately useful on a more classic 12-15 degree cutting bevel sharpening?


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## Choppin (Oct 11, 2017)

Very nice Tommy, the pics really help illustrate the process. 

From what I understood, the coarsest stone you used was a 500 grit, right? Did you consider going lower, say 220, to speed up the process? I just got a Shapton Glass 220 for the initial thinning / bevel flattening because I felt my Gesshin 400 was taking too long, but havent tested it yet.


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## tommybig (Oct 11, 2017)

At that time the Atoma 400 was my coarsest stone, i did most of the work on that. It is totally fine to use anything coarser. I have Shapton pro 220 now that works just fine, your Shapton Glass is should do the job just as well.

It took me a bit to bring myself to put expensive blades on very coarse stones, but i got used to it quickly.


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## Konge (Oct 11, 2017)

Hrm, you write that an aoto or binsui might be helpful during the 6k phase. Do you mean instead of the 6k or between the 6k and the uchigumori? What would your preferred progression up to your natural stones be, if you were to repeat the process?


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## Konge (Oct 24, 2017)

So, while the original title/question was riddled with some quite fundamental misunderstandings, your replies were still immensely helpful. Got my new stones and gave it a go on the moritaka petty. JNS 300 -> JNS 800 -> JNS red aoto -> JNS 6k -> Tomo nagura. Ironically, it seems like I got the best contrast from the JNS 800, uniform and very dark jigane. I'm looking for some troubleshooting on the final result, since it seems less than ideal: https://imgur.com/a/0HRuP

The very upper part close to the KU especially seems very bright, this mostly happened when I put it to the red aoto & 6k - is this because of the stones, or me messing up the angle? Stupidly, I did not take pictures after each stone, but I hope some of you can point me in the right direction and identify some potential errors anyway. Otherwise, I'll just have to go through the progression again


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