# Help a young chef find new knives!



## ColinCB (Aug 15, 2011)

First of all, this forum looks awesome! Lots of information to read!

So, a little background since that's always fun. When I was 4 my crazy mother trusted me with a sharp knife and began teaching me kitchen skills and techniques. Since then I've grown a bit and now I'm 20 with the same love of cooking. I've always loved cooking and preparing meals with care. However I've never really purchased a "full" set of knives. I've always used whatever I can get my hands on. I'm currently in university and this year I will have an apartment style room with a kitchen. 


I'm looking to buy a couple knives, a whetstone, and a cutting board (or two).

I currently use a Global 8" chef's knife. To be honest, I bought it on a whim a couple of years ago when I was younger. I never really thought about it thoroughly. Worth it, or terrible decision? I've used a variety of knives from the cheap, "stays sharp forever!" knives to Furi Santoku sytle knives to a Global to Kyocera ceramics. I liked the Kyocera, but it shattered when my dad accidentally dropped it!

So, the first thing to talk about, budget. I'm looking to spend less than $800-900 on everything. If something really looks worth it, I can push it a bit. Optimally I'm looking for 2-4 knives, a good general purpose board, a good meat board, and a whetstone or other sharpening device. 

I'm open to all suggestions. I'm looking for a good general purpose knife, a paring knife, a ceramic knife, and anything else deemed necessary. Maybe a serrated knife? 
Also, for cutting boards, are the Boardsmith boards standard? Does type of wood matter, other than end-grain? Plastic board for meat or no? 

And finally some type of sharpening device. Whetstone seems to be the go to for sharpening. 



Thanks!


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## jm2hill (Aug 15, 2011)

Welcome. Lots of information here. You'll get a lot of knife recommendations, all of them good ones too. 

I think a beginning question is, have you ever used carbon steel knives? Do you know the difference between Carbon vs Stainless? Would you be willing to put extra care into a knife (always drying it promptly and never leaving it with food on) to get extra benefits?

What type of length are you looking for? What type of handle (wa [japanese] or yo [western])?

take a look at this thread and perhaps fill out the questionnaire to give everyone a better idea: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?2058-Which-knife-should-you-buy

welcome again!


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## ColinCB (Aug 15, 2011)

jm2hill said:


> Welcome. Lots of information here. You'll get a lot of knife recommendations, all of them good ones too.
> 
> I think a beginning question is, have you ever used carbon steel knives? Do you know the difference between Carbon vs Stainless? Would you be willing to put extra care into a knife (always drying it promptly and never leaving it with food on) to get extra benefits?
> 
> ...


 
I have not used a carbon steel knife. Always stainless. I don't know specifics, but carbon steel is strictly C+Fe, while SS is a mix of C+Fe, V, Cr and other metals. Basically SS has extra metals for certain desired properties, such as rust resistance. 

I'd be willing to do some extra work to ensure the knives stay in top condition. If I put money into something I'm not going to forget about it. Especially not a tool. Something my dad always said was, "a tool is worthless if you don't treat it with care." Though at the time he was talking about carpentry tools, ha!

Something around an 8"/20cm knife would be good. As for the paring knife, and any others, I'm open to suggestions. I don't have very much experience with Japanese style knives, however I've always been interested in them. Typically though I'm used to western, but that doesn't mean I can't switch!



Sorry, didn't even see that!

What type of knife(s) do you think you want?

See above. General purpose knife, paring, serrated, ceramic.

Why is it being purchased? What, if anything, are you replacing?

Need a good set of knives! Looking to get my first set of serious knives. Replacing a Global chef's knife. On a side note, I've been using my mom's Furi and Wusthof knives.

What do you like and dislike about these qualities of your knives already?
Aesthetics- Not bad, don't pay that much attention, but I do enjoy a beautiful knife.
Edge Quality/Retention- At the moment, they're ok, but not great.
Ease of Use- Depends what I'm doing, but not bad.
Comfort- Pretty good.

What grip do you use?
Mostly western, but I use a global knife.

What kind of cutting motion do you use?
Rocking, slice, chop mostly. 

Where do you store them?
Magnetic strip on the wall.

Have you ever oiled a handle?
No.

What kind of cutting board(s) do you use?
A probably terrible end-grain board. Most likely walnut.

For edge maintenance, do you use a strop, honing rod, pull through/other, or nothing?
Diamond rod.

Have they ever been sharpened?
Professionally, once.

What is your budget?

800-900, can be pushed a bit.

What do you cook and how often?
Often. Currently less because I am abroad, but at home nearly everyday, and at college, often.

Special requests(Country of origin/type of wood/etc)?
Any. I'm open to any and all suggestions!


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## tk59 (Aug 15, 2011)

I think a good place to start would be: How would you like to improve on your Global? What knives do you use the most and why?

Boards: I wouldn't say BoardSMITH are standard. They are excellent boards. I have several but I mostly use a 16x22 walnut board. It looks nice but I wish it was maple. I have a plastic board for raw meat. It's a PITA to have to wash the big board in the kitchen sink (or the bathtub).

Whetstones: Low maintenance would be a diamond plate (fine). Most of us use Japanese waterstones. I like the convenience of splash-n-go stones like the Gesshin 1k http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...es/gesshin-1000-grit-splash-and-go-stone.html. They aren't the fastest but I can put them away after a couple of hours (as opposed to days) and I like getting a little extra practice. Putting an extra couple of minutes into my sharpening routine is a good thing, in my opinion. Some people like to have a bucket of water with their stones soaking permanently which is fine. I use an Atoma 140 diamond plate to flatten but there are cheaper options.


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## oivind_dahle (Aug 15, 2011)

king combo 1000/6000 = 30 USD
Ikea plastic cutting board = 10 USD
and this
http://www.cartercutlery.com/japane...zai-series/61sun-stainless-fukugozai-funayuki

Based on: I think you have a small kitchen, you are young and will have people dropping by, you will start off with a really high preforming knife.
You can also buy a carter at Buy/Sell/Trade here at KFF (you need one more post to see that subforum) and I guess you are a home chef 

Buy nice or buy twice


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## toek (Aug 15, 2011)

I belive you are in for a treat =), lots of knowledge here. Id like to mention that there is also "in betweene steel" not really stainless and not really carbon that some ppl like alot.


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## tk59 (Aug 15, 2011)

Yeah, I'd get a Carter SFGZ and get it rehandled. If it were me and I couldn't get a Carter, I'd get either Ashi or Suisin for stainless, TKC or CarboNEXT for semistainless or Konosuke or Masamoto KS for carbon.


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## ColinCB (Aug 15, 2011)

tk59 said:


> I think a good place to start would be: How would you like to improve on your Global? What knives do you use the most and why?
> 
> Boards: I wouldn't say BoardSMITH are standard. They are excellent boards. I have several but I mostly use a 16x22 walnut board. It looks nice but I wish it was maple. I have a plastic board for raw meat. It's a PITA to have to wash the big board in the kitchen sink (or the bathtub).
> 
> Whetstones: Low maintenance would be a diamond plate (fine). Most of us use Japanese waterstones. I like the convenience of splash-n-go stones like the Gesshin 1k http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...es/gesshin-1000-grit-splash-and-go-stone.html. They aren't the fastest but I can put them away after a couple of hours (as opposed to days) and I like getting a little extra practice. Putting an extra couple of minutes into my sharpening routine is a good thing, in my opinion. Some people like to have a bucket of water with their stones soaking permanently which is fine. I use an Atoma 140 diamond plate to flatten but there are cheaper options.


 
With the global, I've noticed that edge retention isn't that great and the egde isn't razor sharp. This is probably my fault though, due to the use of a diamond rod instead of a whetstone.

I mostly use a chef's knife for general purpose work, but I've found that I like santoku style knives a far bit as well. The chef's knife for slicing and things of that nature, but the santoku knife is better for chopping. A paring and serrated knife as well for smaller work and bread, etc.


Are they any other good boards that I should look at? I think I'm going to have to go the plastic route for meat as my sink is small and I'm not washing my board in the shower! Unless I really really have to! 

As for whetstones, what's common to have? Do you really need 5 or more stones to have the best edge? As for soaking/use of water, what's the deal with that?


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## ColinCB (Aug 15, 2011)

oivind_dahle said:


> king combo 1000/6000 = 30 USD
> Ikea plastic cutting board = 10 USD
> and this
> http://www.cartercutlery.com/japane...zai-series/61sun-stainless-fukugozai-funayuki
> ...



I am a home chef, haha. Though I once had dreams of being a pro chef, but then I discovered may things about it. Off to marine biology!

I really hate plastic, it's such a slow surface to cut on! 

Interesting knife choice, any reason why?



toek said:


> I belive you are in for a treat =), lots of knowledge here. Id like to mention that there is also "in betweene steel" not really stainless and not really carbon that some ppl like alot.


 
Interesting, I'll look into it.



tk59 said:


> Yeah, I'd get a Carter SFGZ and get it rehandled. If it were me and I couldn't get a Carter, I'd get either Ashi or Suisin for stainless, TKC or CarboNEXT for semistainless or Konosuke or Masamoto KS for carbon.



Any places to buy these from the US?


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## toek (Aug 15, 2011)

Some really "need" at least 5 stones and some manage just fine with 2, i get by with a 1000/4000 combo and stropping. Some stones need soaking to perform but there is also splash n go stones which doesnt need to be soaked. Learn more about stones by searching for whetstone in the forum lots of good stuff there.


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## oivind_dahle (Aug 15, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> I really hate plastic, it's such a slow surface to cut on!



You in a hurry when you are a home chef?
Plastic is easy and you are not ruined if you destroy it. You have a small sink, and need small easy cutting boards. And you need several cuttingboards for different kind of food 





> Interesting knife choice, any reason why?



Bang for the bucks
Great profile, perfect for your small kitchen, great grind. When you use it you will understand it. White steel = Easy to sharpen, fun to use and will get really sharp! Cutting with a Carter makes making food more fun 

But then again, maybe stainless is the way to go if you have a habit of getting drunk, cut some food and fall to sleep in the kitchen


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## monty (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm not meaning to be a shill for Jon, but I'd recommend calling him before you spend any money. http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/
In my experience he won't sell you something you don't need and I suspect he can get you some awesome knives for much less than you have budgeted. Even if you don't buy from him, I'd still include his opinion in your decision making.


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## AnxiousCowboy (Aug 15, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> I'm open to all suggestions. I'm looking for a good general purpose knife, a paring knife, a ceramic knife, and anything else deemed necessary. Maybe a serrated knife?
> Also, for cutting boards, are the Boardsmith boards standard? Does type of wood matter, other than end-grain? Plastic board for meat or no?



I'm a big fan of my Bester 2k stone paired with my rika 5k. Both cut fast and arent too soft or two hard, etc.

If you wanna drop some money on a board get a nice one from boardsmith for general purpose, and then just a plastic one you can throw in the dishwasher for meat and fish. I have a plastic on with a rubber rim to keep it from sliding that my roommate forgot to take with her when she moved out, it's great.

I am a big fan of the Masamoto ks line, but I'm not sure if that would suit you. I haven't seen a lot of love for it on this forum, but I commonly recommend the suisin inox gyutos to newer cooks in the kitchens I work in; something a little slimmer and elegant than the typical German knives they come out of school wielding, a good transition.

So bester 2k: $45
Rika 6k: $50
Suisin inox 210 gyuto: $110
Suisin inox 120 petty: $70
12 x 18 boardsmith: $88
victorinox serrated knife: $25

That's under $400. If you really wanna spend more and upgrade the gyuto I would get a Nenox G series at $230. I wouldn't get any crazy carbon knives for home use. Nenox are really great stainless knives.


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## unkajonet (Aug 15, 2011)

Try the sani-tuff boards. Not as great as wood, nowhere near as bad as plastic. And you can cut them down to the size that you want, if so inclined.

+1 on contacting Jon at JKI (Japanese Knife Imports). He's got great stuff, and is super cool about sharing his knowledge.


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## Andrew H (Aug 15, 2011)

The reason people suggested the Carter is because it is about as good of a blade you can get for that price. To restate what other people have said, generally carbon can out-preform stainless, but it has to be babied a little bit. If you want to do that, go carbon and don't look back. If your roommates will be using these knives, go stainless. 

1k stone - $48 - http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Bester-1200-Sharpening-Stone-p/bstr1200.htm
5k stone - $50 - http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/product-p/suerika5k.htm
Chef's knife - $190 - http://www.cartercutlery.com/japanese-knives/kitchen-cutlery/stainless-fukugozai-series
Petty / paring knife - $150 - http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/konosuke-sakai/konosuke-120mm-hd-wa-petty.html
Bread Knife - $27 - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00093090Y/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Boardsmith w/ shipping - $103 - http://www.theboardsmith.com/catalog.htm

All for under $600


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 15, 2011)

Colin,

First, welcome to KKF. You'll find a lot of great information here.

Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that your current knife, an 8" Global, is what you should stay with for right now, and that you should buy a few good sharpening stones and learn how to sharpen the Global to a razor edge. Until you can do that, there really isn't much point in buying any better knives, as a dull knife is a poor knife no matter how much it costs, and all knives will get dull with use. You need to be able to maintain any knife you own, whether it is a Carter, a Kramer or a Global.

I recommend that you get three stones - a coarse one of 400-500 grit, a medium of 1000-1200 grit and a polisher of 5000-6000 grit. From my own personal experience, I would get the Gesshin 400, 1000 and 5000 from Jon Broida of Japanese Knife Imports( http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/gesshin-1/gesshin-toishi.html). These stones are not inexpensive, but will last for years, if not decades. There are less expensive alternatives, the Beston 500, Bester 1200 and Suehiro Rika 5000 trio come to mind, but in my opinion, they are not as good as the Gesshins. 

I also recommend that you get a copy of Chad Ward's book, _An Edge in the Kitchen_, which is loaded with good information. Amazon carries it.

There are lots of videos about sharpening techniques on YouTube, but not many of them are useful. Jon Broida has put together a series that is excellent, and can be found at this link:

http://www.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports?feature=mhsn#g/u

You may also want to purchase Dave Martell's DVD set:

http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/category-s/23.htm

Of course, if you find you absolutely cannot wait to get a new knife, give Jon Broida a call, as someone mentioned. Jon is more than willing to talk with you and make a recommendation, even if it's for a knife he doesn't carry.

Best of luck,


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## ajhuff (Aug 15, 2011)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Colin,
> 
> First, welcome to KKF. You'll find a lot of great information here.
> 
> ...


 
+1

-AJ


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## obtuse (Aug 15, 2011)

As mentioned, I suggest investing in stones. The global is a good starter knife in its own right. What you need to do is learn how to sharpen. Get Dave Martell's DVD and while you're at it, order a few stones. I suggest starting out with the beston 500 (Japaneseknifesharpening) or gesshin 400 (Japaneseknifeimports)-that will be your course stone; and a Bester 1000 or gesshin equivalent, that will be your medium stone; finally you'll want a finishing stone, I suggest the Suehiro Rika 5000 or Arashiyama 6000 or gesshin equivalent. 
Jon (JapaneseKnifeImports) has a bunch of youtube videos on sharpening, watch them. Ask a lot of questions, you can even make a video of your sharpening and have us critique you. Practice sharpening, read about knives and you'll be able to make a much better knife buying descision. Getting your tools sharp is 90% or the battle.


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## tk59 (Aug 15, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> 1. With the global, I've noticed that edge retention isn't that great and the egde isn't razor sharp. This is probably my fault though, due to the use of a diamond rod instead of a whetstone.
> 
> 2. I mostly use a chef's knife for general purpose work, but I've found that I like santoku style knives a far bit as well. The chef's knife for slicing and things of that nature, but the santoku knife is better for chopping. A paring and serrated knife as well for smaller work and bread, etc.
> 
> 3. As for whetstones, what's common to have? Do you really need 5 or more stones to have the best edge? As for soaking/use of water, what's the deal with that?



1. Globals can definitely get plenty sharp. Edge retention should be fairly good, too. You need to learn to sharpen, otherwise, you'll think all knives have sharpness/retention issues.
2. Sounds like you want something with a flat profile. Masamoto KS (Japanese Chef Knives) or Carter would fit the bill (some here swear by Mizuno, as well), a third option is an Aritsugu A-type (semi-stainless) but some of them require a fair bit of work before they are really great performers.
3. Like I said before, start with a 1k and go from there. I like to use a Gesshin 1k and 5k and then finish by stropping on leather but I often add an 8-12k finishing stone and/or start with a 400 or 500 stone. My first stone was a 3k Superstone and I used only that for several months. It is soft so sharpening was difficult at first but I learned to hold my sharpening angle very quickly with it. For waterstones, you basically need to see a little film of water on the surface of the stone while you are using it. You apply additional water whenever it looks and/or feels dry.

Places to obtain these knives and stones are Japanese Knife Imports, Chef Knives To Go and Japanese Chef Knives. All of them have an online presence.


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## SpikeC (Aug 15, 2011)

I would be a little cautious about starting out with a 400 or 500 stone. Until you develop some technique a lot of damage could be done in a very short time.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 15, 2011)

SpikeC said:


> I would be a little cautious about starting out with a 400 or 500 stone. Until you develop some technique a lot of damage could be done in a very short time.


 
Spike,

I'd agree with that if he were starting out with a brand new knife, but the Global has likely had the factory bevel obliterated by the diamond rod by now. I know from experience that you don't want to set a fresh bevel on a Global with a 1000 grit stone.


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## SpikeC (Aug 15, 2011)

It would give him lots of practice, tho!


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## oivind_dahle (Aug 15, 2011)

Get the Carter, its night and day to the global. Its like comparing a Stock Car to a Ferrari.
Keep the Global so you learn how to sharpen, and sharpen some friends knives. 

I see no reason to keep on using the Global, when you can have a Carter. Life is to short for not having things you easily can afford now. You came with a budget of 800, my advice is to use a little of these on a Carter, some plastic boards and sharpening kit. Have fun now, believe me: life is more fun when you give yourself small gifts like this


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## obtuse (Aug 15, 2011)

I forgot to mention, get a DMT XXC or Atoms 140 for stone flattening.


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## Eamon Burke (Aug 15, 2011)

SpikeC said:


> It would give him lots of practice, tho!


 
I agree, a fast cutting 1k is in order.


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## stevenStefano (Aug 15, 2011)

Don't Globals come with a convex edge? Might take a while to put a new bevel on it. Maybe an 800-ish stone would be a compromise. 800 and 4000 are the only stones I ever really use and I have a 220 for any heavy stuff


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## ColinCB (Aug 15, 2011)

Ok, so here we go!



toek said:


> Some really "need" at least 5 stones and some manage just fine with 2, i get by with a 1000/4000 combo and stropping. Some stones need soaking to perform but there is also splash n go stones which doesnt need to be soaked. Learn more about stones by searching for whetstone in the forum lots of good stuff there.



Interesting, seems like a lot. Will definitely search about them more on the forum. 



oivind_dahle said:


> You in a hurry when you are a home chef?
> Plastic is easy and you are not ruined if you destroy it. You have a small sink, and need small easy cutting boards. And you need several cuttingboards for different kind of food
> 
> Bang for the bucks
> ...



Never in a hurry! Will look into a sani-tuff board for meats and things. 

Any good place to learn about different steel types, e.g. blue, white, etc.

No drunk cooking here!



monty said:


> I'm not meaning to be a shill for Jon, but I'd recommend calling him before you spend any money. http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/
> In my experience he won't sell you something you don't need and I suspect he can get you some awesome knives for much less than you have budgeted. Even if you don't buy from him, I'd still include his opinion in your decision making.



Definitely going to give him a call before I buy anything. A lot of people seem to recommend talking to him.



AnxiousCowboy said:


> I'm a big fan of my Bester 2k stone paired with my rika 5k. Both cut fast and arent too soft or two hard, etc.
> 
> If you wanna drop some money on a board get a nice one from boardsmith for general purpose, and then just a plastic one you can throw in the dishwasher for meat and fish. I have a plastic on with a rubber rim to keep it from sliding that my roommate forgot to take with her when she moved out, it's great.
> 
> ...



Will do. 

Anything special about the Matsumoto MS?



unkajonet said:


> Try the sani-tuff boards. Not as great as wood, nowhere near as bad as plastic. And you can cut them down to the size that you want, if so inclined.
> 
> +1 on contacting Jon at JKI (Japanese Knife Imports). He's got great stuff, and is super cool about sharing his knowledge.



Will do. Thanks!



Andrew H said:


> The reason people suggested the Carter is because it is about as good of a blade you can get for that price. To restate what other people have said, generally carbon can out-preform stainless, but it has to be babied a little bit. If you want to do that, go carbon and don't look back. If your roommates will be using these knives, go stainless.
> 
> 1k stone - $48 - http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Bester-1200-Sharpening-Stone-p/bstr1200.htm
> 5k stone - $50 - http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/product-p/suerika5k.htm
> ...



I don't have an issue taking a bit more time caring for my knives. Thanks for the recs.



Pensacola Tiger said:


> Colin,
> 
> First, welcome to KKF. You'll find a lot of great information here.
> 
> ...




In response to this and a post below, I know for a fact that i have obliterated the edge of my Global. Can I rescue it from death with a coarse stone and move up to finer stones?

I've seen stones like the Naniwa stones with 12,000 grit. Is there a true necessity for having a stone this fine? Would it be better to buy a 500/1000-2000/5000-6000, or something like a set of 1000-2000/5000-6000/10000-12000?

Thanks for all of the info, definitely going to practice on my Global before I risk anything on a $300 knife.



ajhuff said:


> +1
> 
> -AJ



Thanks!



obtuse said:


> As mentioned, I suggest investing in stones. The global is a good starter knife in its own right. What you need to do is learn how to sharpen. Get Dave Martell's DVD and while you're at it, order a few stones. I suggest starting out with the beston 500 (Japaneseknifesharpening) or gesshin 400 (Japaneseknifeimports)-that will be your course stone; and a Bester 1000 or gesshin equivalent, that will be your medium stone; finally you'll want a finishing stone, I suggest the Suehiro Rika 5000 or Arashiyama 6000 or gesshin equivalent.
> Jon (JapaneseKnifeImports) has a bunch of youtube videos on sharpening, watch them. Ask a lot of questions, you can even make a video of your sharpening and have us critique you. Practice sharpening, read about knives and you'll be able to make a much better knife buying descision. Getting your tools sharp is 90% or the battle.



Thanks.

I'm thinking a youtube video might help, but then I have to show off how terrible my sharpening skills are, haha.



tk59 said:


> 1. Globals can definitely get plenty sharp. Edge retention should be fairly good, too. You need to learn to sharpen, otherwise, you'll think all knives have sharpness/retention issues.
> 2. Sounds like you want something with a flat profile. Masamoto KS (Japanese Chef Knives) or Carter would fit the bill (some here swear by Mizuno, as well), a third option is an Aritsugu A-type (semi-stainless) but some of them require a fair bit of work before they are really great performers.
> 3. Like I said before, start with a 1k and go from there. I like to use a Gesshin 1k and 5k and then finish by stropping on leather but I often add an 8-12k finishing stone and/or start with a 400 or 500 stone. My first stone was a 3k Superstone and I used only that for several months. It is soft so sharpening was difficult at first but I learned to hold my sharpening angle very quickly with it. For waterstones, you basically need to see a little film of water on the surface of the stone while you are using it. You apply additional water whenever it looks and/or feels dry.
> 
> Places to obtain these knives and stones are Japanese Knife Imports, Chef Knives To Go and Japanese Chef Knives. All of them have an online presence.



What's this soft/hard stones thing? 

And thanks for the info!



SpikeC said:


> I would be a little cautious about starting out with a 400 or 500 stone. Until you develop some technique a lot of damage could be done in a very short time.



That's what i thought.



Pensacola Tiger said:


> Spike,
> 
> I'd agree with that if he were starting out with a brand new knife, but the Global has likely had the factory bevel obliterated by the diamond rod by now. I know from experience that you don't want to set a fresh bevel on a Global with a 1000 grit stone.



Completely right. I doubt there's anything left of the original edge. I've definitely murdered it. Starting with either a 500 or 1000 is the best bet.



SpikeC said:


> It would give him lots of practice, tho!



Definitely! Better practice my technique taking off a small amount of metal versus taking off way to much metal and still having a poor edge.



oivind_dahle said:


> Get the Carter, its night and day to the global. Its like comparing a Stock Car to a Ferrari.
> Keep the Global so you learn how to sharpen, and sharpen some friends knives.
> 
> I see no reason to keep on using the Global, when you can have a Carter. Life is to short for not having things you easily can afford now. You came with a budget of 800, my advice is to use a little of these on a Carter, some plastic boards and sharpening kit. Have fun now, believe me: life is more fun when you give yourself small gifts like this



Haha, we'll see! 



obtuse said:


> I forgot to mention, get a DMT XXC or Atoms 140 for stone flattening.



Definitely. Just added that to the list of things to buy.



johndoughy said:


> I agree, a fast cutting 1k is in order.



Fast cutting meaning takes metal off the blade quickly, correct?



stevenStefano said:


> Don't Globals come with a convex edge? Might take a while to put a new bevel on it. Maybe an 800-ish stone would be a compromise. 800 and 4000 are the only stones I ever really use and I have a 220 for any heavy stuff


 
I believe so. 






+++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, more questions.

When sharpening my Global, what's the proper technique? Is the blade's edge symmetrical like a western knife, or asymmetrical like an eastern knife? Also, I will be basically starting fresh. I've destroyed the edge from poor sharpening.

With whetstones is there any reason to use a stone that requires soaking vs. a stone that does not require anything more than a 5 minute or less soak?


What would be the next step up frpm the Carter? Is there is a reason it is so highly recommended? 


Anything else to consider other than knives, 2 cutting boards, whetstones, and a diamond plate for leveling?


I appreciate all of the help guys, thanks!


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## Andrew H (Aug 15, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> Ok, so here we go!
> So, more questions.
> 
> When sharpening my Global, what's the proper technique? Is the blade's edge symmetrical like a western knife, or asymmetrical like an eastern knife? Also, I will be basically starting fresh. I've destroyed the edge from poor sharpening.
> ...



The original (factory) bevel was 50-50, symmetrical. The technique to sharpen it can be seen in JKI's video series on youtube, which is fantastic. 

I don't know if there is a functional difference between soakers and "splash n go" stones, as far as I am aware there is none.

The next step up from the Carter we are recommending (one of his lower lines) is one of his higher lines or a custom maker. Some would argue that you can't get any better than his blades, at that level of quality what's better than what is very subjective. 

There are always more things you could buy, but there really isn't anything more you need.


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## JBroida (Aug 15, 2011)

Andrew H said:


> The original (factory) bevel was 50-50, symmetrical. The technique to sharpen it can be seen in JKI's video series on youtube, which is fantastic.
> 
> I don't know if there is a functional difference between soakers and "splash n go" stones, as far as I am aware there is none.
> 
> ...


 
on sokaing stones vs. splash and go, there does tend to be a functional difference (i would say this is true for 90% of what i see)... soaking stones tend to be faster cutters with better tactile feedback whereas splash and go stones tend to feel more slippery and dont usually cut quite as fast (especially on harder steels like sg2 and zdp-189)... again, there are exceptions, but i find this is true most of the time


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## sachem allison (Aug 16, 2011)

Personally I would go with the Hiromoto's, Their a great knife easy to sharpen, great edge retention and if you jump onto the rehandle group buy you'll make out like a bandit.
I have and old Hiromoto Hc 240 that I will never sell. love that thing


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## ColinCB (Aug 16, 2011)

Andrew H said:


> The original (factory) bevel was 50-50, symmetrical. The technique to sharpen it can be seen in JKI's video series on youtube, which is fantastic.
> 
> I don't know if there is a functional difference between soakers and "splash n go" stones, as far as I am aware there is none.
> 
> ...



Ah, ok. 

Is there any reason to change that? I mean the edge is going to need a lot of work, so is there a better edge to put on it? 




JBroida said:


> on sokaing stones vs. splash and go, there does tend to be a functional difference (i would say this is true for 90% of what i see)... soaking stones tend to be faster cutters with better tactile feedback whereas splash and go stones tend to feel more slippery and dont usually cut quite as fast (especially on harder steels like sg2 and zdp-189)... again, there are exceptions, but i find this is true most of the time


 
Interesting. I think it was in your videos that you said the Gesshin 1000 splash n go stone was pretty good?





Is a ceramic knife even worth the trouble? I had one last year, but it ended up broken! (Not by me.)

Also, what styles of knives are most commonly used, eg. blade style (santoku, etc.). 

I feel like a longer profile slicing knife would be a good start, but I do a lot of chopping, would a santoku be a good second knife to own?


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## ThEoRy (Aug 16, 2011)

Gyuto 240mm, Sujihiki 270-300mm, Tojiro itk bread knife, Petty 150mm, pairing 90-120mm
Start with those shapes. 

Welcome to the rabbit hole.


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## jmforge (Aug 16, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> Any places to buy these from the US?


 You can buy the Carter knives from the man himself. He is back in the States now living in Oregon.


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## JBroida (Aug 16, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> Ah, ok.
> 
> Is there any reason to change that? I mean the edge is going to need a lot of work, so is there a better edge to put on it?
> 
> ...


 
yeah, it is, but this rings true when you compare the gesshin 1k and 2k for example... another good example is how the 5k (or even 3k) super stone compares to the suehiro rika for that matter


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## toek (Aug 16, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> Is a ceramic knife even worth the trouble? I had one last year, but it ended up broken! (Not by me.)


I have 2 ceramic and they are both crap, not very sharp fragile and a pain to sharpen (so ive heard didnt bother sharpening them.)


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## oivind_dahle (Aug 16, 2011)

As painful it is to admit, my favorite parer of all time was the 3" Kyrocera parer :S
To bad I broke it, hopefully I will have a new soon but this time from Bill Burke  WOOT!!! BILL FTW!


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## ColinCB (Aug 16, 2011)

So from what I can tell, this is what I should look into further:

-3 whetstones, 400-600/1k-2k/5k-6k and holder?
-A diamond leveling plate for the stones
-2 cutting boards, one wood, the other sani-tuff. Which wood is best (maple, walnut, etc.)
-2 or 3 knives.

As for the knives, a gyuto, a deba, a santoku, and petty are possible choices. 

For now it seems that getting 1 knife may be optimal. I was thinking a Deba or Santoku would be a good choice. I do a lot of chopping, and that would go well with my Global chef's knife until I could get a better one. 

Any suggestions?


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## jm2hill (Aug 16, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> So from what I can tell, this is what I should look into further:
> 
> -3 whetstones, 400-600/1k-2k/5k-6k and holder?
> -A diamond leveling plate for the stones
> ...



just a quick note: Deba is not for chopping. It is used for filleting fish, the spine will be too thick to chop the way you would like. For chopping you would be looking at something like a nakiri, santoku, usuba (single bevel nakiri). Plenty of good choices out there. 

If your set on a santoku a very good choice for a good looking knife and a good cutter would be to jump in on the group by Dave is having. Otherwise there are other good options for all 3 out there.


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## jm2hill (Aug 16, 2011)

ThEoRy said:


> Gyuto 240mm, Sujihiki 270-300mm, Tojiro itk bread knife, Petty 150mm, pairing 90-120mm
> Start with those shapes.
> 
> Welcome to the rabbit hole.



I second this list. Adding whatever else you want to the end of it. i.e Santoku/Usuba/Nakiri for vegetables


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## goodchef1 (Aug 16, 2011)

bear in mind, there were/are a lot of knives available that have been raved on in the past but have little to no talk about them now, mainly due to "been there, reviewed that" . So when you research new knives, try and broaden your scope. In knife selection and sharpening, corners cannot and should not be cut, some I hesitate to say, are more for advanced users and can find little joy in the hands of someone that cannot fully appreciate/enjoy it at present. How do you say, you have to earn your bones, like everyone else here.


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## ColinCB (Aug 16, 2011)

jm2hill said:


> just a quick note: Deba is not for chopping. It is used for filleting fish, the spine will be too thick to chop the way you would like. For chopping you would be looking at something like a nakiri, santoku, usuba (single bevel nakiri). Plenty of good choices out there.
> 
> If your set on a santoku a very good choice for a good looking knife and a good cutter would be to jump in on the group by Dave is having. Otherwise there are other good options for all 3 out there.



I just looked at the thickness of the Deba, I see what you mean! It's definitely not a thin blade, hah! I think a santoku would be the best choice then. I like the square tip of the others, but the shape of the santoku blade would probably be a better fit.



jm2hill said:


> I second this list. Adding whatever else you want to the end of it. i.e Santoku/Usuba/Nakiri for vegetables



Thanks for the info!





As for the Sujihiki knives, are they primarily for slicing things? I assume so given the slender and long blades. A bit off topic, but are those the "typical" sushi knives?


Thanks!


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## ColinCB (Aug 16, 2011)

goodchef1 said:


> bear in mind, there were/are a lot of knives available that have been raved on in the past but have little to no talk about them now, mainly due to "been there, reviewed that" . So when you research new knives, try and broaden your scope. In knife selection and sharpening, corners cannot and should not be cut, some I hesitate to say, are more for advanced users and can find little joy in the hands of someone that cannot fully appreciate/enjoy it at present. How do you say, you have to earn your bones, like everyone else here.



Of course. I try to look at other knives other than the FOTM (flavour of the month). It happens with everything from knives to audio equipment to gadgets. 


What knives in your opinion should be looked at that are older?


I don't intend to skip right to the top knives! Not to mention I don't have the funds! If I can find a happy medium, that's good enough for me....for now.


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## jm2hill (Aug 16, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> I just looked at the thickness of the Deba, I see what you mean! It's definitely not a thin blade, hah! I think a santoku would be the best choice then. I like the square tip of the others, but the shape of the santoku blade would probably be a better fit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




if you're interested in single bevel knives. Take a look at a kamagata usuba. Jon has one made by Yoshihiro at a very decent price for the knife. Its got the rounder face that is similar to a santoku.

The general sushi knife (used by most japanese chefs) is usually a yanagiba which is a single bevel type of sujihiki.

Sujihiki while generally known as slicers some around here will use them as all purpose knives and swear by them. That all comes down to matter of preference tho.


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## ColinCB (Aug 16, 2011)

jm2hill said:


> if you're interested in single bevel knives. Take a look at a kamagata usuba. Jon has one made by Yoshihiro at a very decent price for the knife. Its got the rounder face that is similar to a santoku.
> 
> The general sushi knife (used by most japanese chefs) is usually a yanagiba which is a single bevel type of sujihiki.
> 
> Sujihiki while generally known as slicers some around here will use them as all purpose knives and swear by them. That all comes down to matter of preference tho.


 
I think I'm more interested in blade shape than bevels.

So all yanagibas are sujihikis, but not all sujihikis are yanagibas?


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## oivind_dahle (Aug 16, 2011)

Carter Funayuki
Funayuki ( &#33311;&#34892; ) - Thinner than or Miroshi Deba, but the blade is wider. Standard definition is that the knife was specifically made for fisherman for ease of handling on the boats. However, some makers use the same term for thin, double grind knives, more like Gyuto style knife. 

If you can afford a High Grade you should go for it. A little bird told me Carter is about to hit the store with lots of new blades, and perhaps with better handles. Somebody also wrote he might have a sale, but dont count on it  A 6.5sun High Grade Funayuki will be perfect for you. This will way over your skills years to come!


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## jm2hill (Aug 16, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> I think I'm more interested in blade shape than bevels.
> 
> So all yanagibas are sujihikis, but not all sujihikis are yanagibas?



I would more say that they have the same shape. The essential difference is how they are used because of the different bevels.



oivind_dahle said:


> Carter Funayuki
> Funayuki ( &#33311;&#34892; ) - Thinner than or Miroshi Deba, but the blade is wider. Standard definition is that the knife was specifically made for fisherman for ease of handling on the boats. However, some makers use the same term for thin, double grind knives, more like Gyuto style knife.
> 
> If you can afford a High Grade you should go for it. A little bird told me Carter is about to hit the store with lots of new blades, and perhaps with better handles. Somebody also wrote he might have a sale, but dont count on it  A 6.5sun High Grade Funayuki will be perfect for you. This will way over your skills years to come!



A carter funayuki would be a great choice. Once those if ever go on sale I'll be buying one


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## ColinCB (Aug 16, 2011)

$385! Damn.

If they have a sale, I'd consider it.

Do you have any guides that explain the different uses for bevels and blade shapes?


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## Vertigo (Aug 16, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> I think I'm more interested in blade shape than bevels.
> 
> So all yanagibas are sujihikis, but not all sujihikis are yanagibas?


 
They are completely different knives. It's easy to confuse things when their profiles look the same, but understand single bevel and double bevel knives have drastically different geometries. 

I hope it's okay to hotlink from Jon's site, but here's a yanagiba:







And here's a sujihiki:






I doubt you're actually in the market for a true single bevel like a yanagiba or a deba or an usuba -- using these knives requires a different technique than you're most likely accustomed to.

As for the santoku thing.. I don't think I've seen anyone try to talk you out of it yet, so here's my go: a santoku is a gyuto that's had it's tip clipped off. Buy a longer gyuto with a bit of flat edge, and you can slice with it _and_ chop with it. No need to have an 8" chefs knife and a santoku, when a 10" chef's knife will chop, slice, dice, etc.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 16, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> I think I'm more interested in blade shape than bevels.
> 
> So all yanagibas are sujihikis, but not all sujihikis are yanagibas?


 
No. Although both are slicing knives, a yanagiba is a single-bevel knife designed for slicing raw fish. The name is derived from "willow leaf" because the blade shape resembles one.

A sujihiki is a double-bevel general purpose slicing knife. Most of the ones you will see have a clipped tip, but some have a "willow leaf" shape. Bladesmiths like Carter, Takeda or Moritaka call a double-bevel general purpose slicing knife a yanigiba instead of a sujihiki when the blade shape resembles a willow leaf. They may be technically correct, but this is where confusion sets in.

I suggest that for the moment, you steer clear of single-bevel knives, unless you are planning to become deeply involved in traditional Japanese preparation methods.


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## jm2hill (Aug 16, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> $385! Damn.
> 
> If they have a sale, I'd consider it.
> 
> Do you have any guides that explain the different uses for bevels and blade shapes?


 
http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/usetype/all/index.shtml

here is a list that talks about all the knives that will be mentioned and what they are used for. if you like a knife see what its used for and if it fits your criteria. 

As far as the Santoku thing goes, I would agree it is unnecessary. Get a larger gyuto and learn to use that. 

A lot gets talked about using multi-purpose knives and single-purpose knives. The gyuto and santoku are both multi-purpose however the gyuto just does it better. 

I for one like cooking with multiple knives so when I do cook I usually have a petty/gyuto/nakiri all ready to use. So I may be hypocrite when I say just buy one, but if you are tight on budget and have stuff to buy still. Get the stuff you need.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 16, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> $385! Damn.
> 
> If they have a sale, I'd consider it.
> 
> Do you have any guides that explain the different uses for bevels and blade shapes?


 
Colin,

There are many other knives that can be had for that kind of money, some of them are better than a Carter.

As far as a guide is concerned, I again point you to _An Edge in the Kitchen_ by Chad Ward that I suggested in my first reply.


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## ColinCB (Aug 16, 2011)

Vertigo said:


> They are completely different knives. It's easy to confuse things when their profiles look the same, but understand single bevel and double bevel knives have drastically different geometries.
> 
> I hope it's okay to hotlink from Jon's site, but here's a yanagiba:
> 
> ...




Ah, thanks for the clarification. Definitely going to stick with double bevel knives for now.

As for the gyuto, I'll definitely look into doing that instead.



Pensacola Tiger said:


> No. Although both are slicing knives, a yanagiba is a single-bevel knife designed for slicing raw fish. The name is derived from "willow leaf" because the blade shape resembles one.
> 
> A sujihiki is a double-bevel general purpose slicing knife. Most of the ones you will see have a clipped tip, but some have a "willow leaf" shape. Bladesmiths like Carter, Takeda or Moritaka call a double-bevel general purpose slicing knife a yanigiba instead of a sujihiki when the blade shape resembles a willow leaf. They may be technically correct, but this is where confusion sets in.
> 
> I suggest that for the moment, you steer clear of single-bevel knives, unless you are planning to become deeply involved in traditional Japanese preparation methods.



Ah, thanks. 

I think I will steer clear of them for now.



jm2hill said:


> http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/usetype/all/index.shtml
> 
> here is a list that talks about all the knives that will be mentioned and what they are used for. if you like a knife see what its used for and if it fits your criteria.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I just found that yesterday after a bit of searching! I also found the page with bevel type. Some seriously interesting bevels in there.




Pensacola Tiger said:


> Colin,
> 
> There are many other knives that can be had for that kind of money, some of them are better than a Carter.
> 
> As far as a guide is concerned, I again point you to _An Edge in the Kitchen_ by Chad Ward that I suggested in my first reply.



Thanks again. I'm definitely going to buy that book when I get a chance. 


++++++++++++


As for getting a gyuto, I like this knife shape:
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...n-ino-210mm-white-2-hon-kasumi-wa-gyuto.html#

I don't necessarily mean the actual knife, just the shape.


Other than bevels, steel types, shape, etc. are there any major differences between craftsmen? Is "x" knife from "y" better than "x" knife from "z"? I don't mean for that question be loaded/start flaming, but I'm curious. There are just so many knives from so many craftsmen to look at.


Also, I want to thank all of you for helping me, it's truly amazing how welcoming people can be on the internet!


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## Timthebeaver (Aug 17, 2011)

The shape of that Ino 210mm honkasumi is quite unique compared to other wa-gyutos. Beautiful knife.

As a starter, you cannot go wrong with the Carbonext (semi stainless) for western handled. The Ashi Hamono 210mm gyuto at Japanese knife Imports would be a good choice for stainless, also available in the Gesshin Ginga line (slightly harder at 61 HRC). There are also western-handled equivalents.

I like the Sugimoto 210 wa gyuto too. Thin, reasonably hard stainless, 90/10 asymmetric out of the box. It's a bargain at ~$75. It has a basic handle with a plastic bolster, but the blade is nice (imo).


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## dehory (Aug 17, 2011)

Vertigo said:


> As for the santoku thing.. I don't think I've seen anyone try to talk you out of it yet, so here's my go: a santoku is a gyuto that's had it's tip clipped off. Buy a longer gyuto with a bit of flat edge, and you can slice with it _and_ chop with it. No need to have an 8" chefs knife and a santoku, when a 10" chef's knife will chop, slice, dice, etc.


 


jm2hill said:


> As far as the Santoku thing goes, I would agree it is unnecessary. Get a larger gyuto and learn to use that.
> 
> A lot gets talked about using multi-purpose knives and single-purpose knives. The gyuto and santoku are both multi-purpose however the gyuto just does it better.



Just to sound a contrary note on the gyuto/santoku question...

Overall, a gyuto is definitely more versatile than a santoku, and in a restaurant kitchen or large production setting, there's absolutely no question which is the more effective knife. 

However, when I'm cooking in my small apartment kitchen, I actually find myself reaching for a ~185mm santoku more often than the 240mm gyuto I use elsewhere. My cutting boards (28cm by 43cm) are really on the small side to make maximum use of the gyuto's length when I'm chopping, and my sink is too small to make a larger cutting board feasible. Not to mention that I very, very rarely need a slicing knife at home.

Speaking from that perspective, I'd be inclined to suggest a 120mm petty, a 180mm santoku (or 180-210mm gyuto - but it seems like the OP prefers the rounded shape of the former), and a good, long serrated knife for bread and assorted slicing duties. Depending on how often the OP needs to portion/slice large proteins (or moves somewhere with more room to work with), a 240+mm gyuto or suji could come later as he deems it necessary.


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## ColinCB (Aug 18, 2011)

To be honest, I don't like the feeling of large knives. Anything over a 240mm or so would probably feel too large. It's kind of weird as I have large hands, but I feel much more agile and precise with a smaller knife, like a 210mm.

I'll be looking at specifics in the next few days and seeing what you guys say. Thanks!


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## JohnnyChance (Aug 18, 2011)

ColinCB said:


> To be honest, I don't like the feeling of large knives. Anything over a 240mm or so would probably feel too large. It's kind of weird as I have large hands, but I feel much more agile and precise with a smaller knife, like a 210mm.
> 
> I'll be looking at specifics in the next few days and seeing what you guys say. Thanks!


 
The more you use em, the more you get used to them. Plus a light and well balanced japanese knife is way more nimble than german or some other knives of similar length.


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## ColinCB (Aug 18, 2011)

JohnnyChance said:


> The more you use em, the more you get used to them. Plus a light and well balanced japanese knife is way more nimble than german or some other knives of similar length.



Definitely. I've mostly used heavy german knives, so I'm used to a lot of heft in the blade. Could be an eye opening experience to handle japanese steel.


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## oivind_dahle (Aug 20, 2011)

What did you end up with?


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## ColinCB (Aug 20, 2011)

I'm going to talk to Jon soon, but I'm thinking about a wa-gyuto and a petty for starters. That and a cutting board and some stones. 

Let's go wallet!


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## obtuse (Aug 20, 2011)

Definitely have a chat with Jon, you can always PM or email him too


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## ColinCB (Aug 25, 2011)

Finally got a chance to speak with Jon! 

What he recommended was a 240mm or so wa-gyuto and around a 120-150 wa-petty. Along with a single stone, a 1k or 2k.

Too bad I'm in Australia until December! I WANT NEW KNIVES NOW!


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## jm2hill (Aug 25, 2011)

Ship them to Australia?

It'll cost you in shipping but its totally worth it!


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## ColinCB (Aug 26, 2011)

No reason to, unfortunately. Very limited kitchens!


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