# Cut Brooklyn: Opinions?



## jackslimpson

Does anyone have a Cut Brooklyn knife? If so, what do you think of them? How's the steel, the edge, and the performance?

Cheers,

Jack

P.S.: since they come from Brooklyn, there's a Yo!-handled joke in there somewhere, but I can't work it out.


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## Lefty

Never used one, but Joel seems to have really upped his game, recently. I like the new profile, and I think his handles look pretty nice. 
They're not lazers, though.
Dave?


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## Marko Tsourkan

Lefty said:


> Never used one, but Joel seems to have really upped his game, recently. I like the new profile, and I think his handles look pretty nice.
> They're not lazers, though.
> Dave?


 
The last time I checked, Cut Brooklyn used steel more suitable for hunting and field knives, than kitchen knives.

One style handle. Too thin IMO

M


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## mano

When I first decided to get a higher-end knife late last year I seriously considered CB. Joel isn't too far and we emailed about a custom order. My sister had been to his shop when a friend ordered several knives and said he was a great guy. That was my experience, as well.

But when I floated the idea on knife forums the consensus was the Prospect profiles were not the best so I passed. Also I wasn't crazy about the colored resin handles.

The newer Journeyman model seems to be more in line with j knives and he's using wood handles.

SLT is going to carry his manufactured line pretty soon.


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## Eamon Burke

Personally, I don't quite understand the pricetag. But perhaps I am missing something.


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## rockbox

For all practical purposes, the CB knives are mid-techs. CB doesn't do his own heat treats, and you can't really customize the knife. If I were going to buy a mid-tech, a DT looks a lot more appealing especially considering the price tag. I can get a full custom from Pierre or for 100-200 more, you get a damascus knife from Del.


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## Marko Tsourkan

+1. No in-house heat treatment, limited handle customization, limited steel selection. Mid-tech at best.


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## Andrew H

Is it just me or do his handles seem pretty weird?


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## thehessian

I posted this reply on another forum:

"I've got a gyuto in his Journeyman series, which uses 1095 carbon steel. It's a simple steel, but a solid performer that has proven itself in outdoor knives.

Haven't had the gyuto for too long, so I can't comment on long-term use, but it's ground very thin and cuts exceptionally well. A little more flexible than I usually like, but that's probably just a function of its thinness and doesn't detract from its usability for me.

It's a real beauty, too.

Joel is a really nice guy and a superb craftsman. I hope his knives get more popular in Foodie circles."

One thing I would add is that I don't believe outsourcing the heat treat connotes a mid-tech knife. Everything else is done in his shop and without benefit of CNC, so far as I know.


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## rockbox

There is no true definition of mid-tech. However, the DT mid-tech has more steps done in house than the CBs and cost about half the price. At around the same price, I can get a some of the knife makers here to make me a true custom knife. I don't knock people for liking a particular knife, but* personally* I don't think the CB stuff is a particularly good value. You can get a mizu honyaki or and damascus Ealy for not much more.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

I thought WS was carrying them? Either way the guy has some great marketing going on. I was shocked by the $600 price tag though. His name has floated around in the forums for a couple years now, but never builds steam. To me, that says a lot. We are some pretty loose billed folks, so for no one to drop the change to try one out says a lot. Maybe if he changed his steel and started participating here to learn more about what kitchen knife folks look for things would change? And as far as this statement, "I've got a gyuto in his Journeyman series, which uses 1095 carbon steel. It's a simple steel, but a solid performer that has proven itself in outdoor knives."...what makes it a gyuto (marketing?) and not a chefs? Interchangeable at times to makers trying to immitate j-makers but is that the case here? Also, 1095 is not a bad steel, but you made an important point...outdoor knives and kitchen knives are apples and oranges. Just because teak makes a good outdoor furniture wood doesn't mean I want to make a cutting board out of it.


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## thehessian

What additional steps are done in-house? (Not a challenge, I'm genuinely curious.)

I concede that there are better deals than CB, but for me, that's not always the bottom line. If certain desirable features and design elements are present on a particular knife, then I'm in.

Edited to add:

AFKitchenknivesguy: I took the liberty of calling it a gyuto based on the overall shape (the geometry is similar to many Japanese knives, which was one of the immediately appealing factors for me). Not to mention the fact that the term is common parlance around these parts. Joel doesn't use the term, so far as I'm aware.

Good analogy with the teak example. Maybe you're right. So far my experience has been that it's a very serviceable knife. Perhaps he'll change his carbon choice if he gets enough negative feedback on it.


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## WildBoar

Having a couple of demanding pro cooks put one through it's paces would sure help his cause. Too many knives out there for less $ that have been proven to be good performers. For a non-damascus carbon, the price of entry is a bit high unless his knives have been building a good track record in the kitchen. Only a few kitchen knife makers have a reputation good enough to support higher prices.


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## SpikeC

I find 1095 an odd choice for a high end knife. There are so many other choices in carbon steel that provide better performance.


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## Lefty

WildBoar said:


> Having a couple of demanding pro cooks put one through it's paces would sure help his cause. Too many knives out there for less $ that have been proven to be good performers. For a non-damascus carbon, the price of entry is a bit high unless his knives have been building a good track record in the kitchen. Only a few kitchen knife makers have a reputation good enough to support higher prices.


 
I will agree 100% that his knives haven't been tried by any of us, and that for the money, I'd go another obvious direction.
However, just because he hasn't been "discovered" by us, or involved in a passaround here doesn't mean he isn't floating knives around with chef's elsewhere.
He has brooklyn on his doorstep and the other boroughs in his backyard. I guarantee he's getting input from somewhere. TRUST ME on this one.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Lefty said:


> I will agree 100% that his knives haven't been tried by any of us, and that for the money, I'd go another obvious direction.
> However, just because he hasn't been "discovered" by us, or involved in a passaround here doesn't mean he isn't floating knives around with chef's elsewhere.
> He has brooklyn on his doorstep and the other boroughs in his backyard. I guarantee he's getting input from somewhere. TRUST ME on this one.


 
Actually, he was discovered by us almost two years ago. No one pulled the trigger to buy one, so no feedback was ever given. To my memory, the steel and design were the major drawbacks...can't remember what he charged then but it was near the price now.


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## Marko Tsourkan

Lefty said:


> I will agree 100% that his knives haven't been tried by any of us, and that for the money, I'd go another obvious direction.
> However, just because he hasn't been "discovered" by us, or involved in a passaround here doesn't mean he isn't floating knives around with chef's elsewhere.
> He has brooklyn on his doorstep and the other boroughs in his backyard. I guarantee he's getting input from somewhere. TRUST ME on this one.


 
Lefty,
CB was mentioned on the forums for at least 2 years that I can remember. Joel paid a visit to Dave, who had some good things to say about the knife (handle is comfortable comes to mind) but I don't know anybody on any of the three forums - KF, FF, and now KKF, who actually owns one. 

How did it become popular in NYC? Well, there was a couple of writeups, one in NY Times (and recently on CB end-grain boards, followed by latest article about knives) and at least a couple of small video interview online that I know of. The author in the NY Times didn't have much experience writing about knvies, which made me wonder, so I asked a friend who writes a column in a local newspaper and is familiar with the industry, and he told me that this is is how the paper makes money - you approach an agent, shell out 6-8K and get a nice write up about you by people often unfamiliar with the subject. 

CB probably gets some imput from the forums, but he never bothered to join and to have his knives evaluated. Which I think is mistake if you are serious. But Joel's market is not pros, and educated home cooks. His market is young, wealthy professionals who like expensive things without knowing much about them. The emphasis on handle material and mozaic pins (designer stuff) speaks for itself. I have no doubts his knives will outcut German steel, but to claim that best knives come from Japan and Brooklyn (which I am sure he was joking about), is ludicrous. 

Don't want to sound overly negative, but there are A makers, and B makers. Everybody starts from B, but some people stay there, even as time goes by. That is how I view things. Plain and simple. 


M


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## Lefty

Mentioned, yes. I mean "discovered" as in tried out. Sorry for the ambiguity.


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## Lefty

I definitely get you Marko. I think he should join here, but to each his own, I guess.
I'm just saying, he does have people using his product and giving their opinions...just not us!


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## jaybett

A driving force in the forums is exploration. People are always on the look out for the next great knife. A knife maker to get people to take a chance on his knife, must have one of the following:

1. Price point - most of the popular brands, started at a low price point. Not a huge loss, if the knife didn't work out. 
2. Steel - A new type of steel will generate interest. Konosukes HD being the latest example.
3. Reputation of the maker. Dave was able to pre-sell a number of knives, based on his reputation. 

Cut Brooklyn's price point has always been high. At least a $100 - $200 higher then a comparable gyuto. 
The steel doesn't get anybody excited. 
While Joel is recognized as making a good knife, what separates his knives from other makers? 

It doesn't take much of a reason or an excuse for some of us to purchase a new knife. I think that it has been longer then two years, since the forums have been aware of Cut Brooklyn. As far as I can recall, nobody has purchased one or at least posted about their purchase on the forum. 

Jay


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## thehessian

I just joined this forum, though I've been around similar forums for a few years. Just don't post much. But it feels a little insular on some of the forums, at times. Maybe some people have a slight aversion to that and decide to earn their beans elsewhere.


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## rockbox

thehessian said:


> I just joined this forum, though I've been around similar forums for a few years. Just don't post much. But it feels a little insular on some of the forums, at times. Maybe some people have a slight aversion to that and decide to earn their beans elsewhere.



I sorry you feel that this forum is insular just because we are not attracted to the CB knives. We have guys here who have bought thousand dollar knives just to try them out. Adam was the first person who I knew who bought a Kramer. Salty was the first I knew to buy almost every knife he owns. Just because we haven't affirmed your knife purchase decision, doesn't mean we don't like you. Joel just haven't given the guys here to get behind in terms of a product. Maybe he is not targeting us as a customer. He is obviously doing something right to be able to sell his knives at Williams Sonoma, so maybe he doesn't need us.


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## Dave Martell

I know Joel pretty well, he's been down here at least 4 times that I can recall and we've become good friends. His take on his knives is interesting since he started both designing & making knives without any help or influence at all. He essentially bought a grinder and some steel and got to doing what he liked. He started out somewhere down south in a gardner's shack (or something like that) while attending college. He's put a lot of time into refining his knives to be unique yet functional. 

The knives themselves (the Propect line) are pretty thin, use good steel (well I only know about his older CPM-154 models) and can hold their own with what we've seen. The issues that people have mentioned to me when handling his knives is that they either love or don't like the handles. From what I can see hand size plays a good part in this. The belly profile is a bit more of a rocker style but not as much as what you'd think. 

As for Joel participating on the forums, I doubt that will happen, but maybe he reads them?

I know that regardless of what we here think of his knives or pricing that he sells a crap load of knives up in NYC and is set to take off.


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## thehessian

Rockbox, believe me, my opinions are not based on consensus validation or lack-thereof. That's a bit of a simplistic reading. Though this is the internet, nuance gets lost, and I'm by no means calling you simplistic. Anyway, I formed that opinion (rightly or wrongly) before I bought the knife.

Dave, that strikes me as a very balanced and fair take on the matter.


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## rockbox

Dave Martell said:


> I know that regardless of what we here think of his knives or pricing that he sells a crap load of knives up in NYC and is set to take off.



Shun sold a whole bunch of Ken Onions also. :sofa:

Marketing and sales success has little to do with product quality. Heck, I've helped sell 8 million dollars of software that didn't work at all. Its all about being liked and seen. Joel has done a great job at this. He's been in a number of national magazines and he has a good camera personality. I think the knife makers here could learn a lot from Joel in this regard. The real money is in the Sub-zero/Thermador/Mauviel crowd.


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## rockbox

BTW, if any you guys could get on the Pioneer Woman to write something good about you on her blog, you would have a waiting list as long as Bob's.


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## Marko Tsourkan

Maybe some of us are a bit less diplomatic than others, but we perceive things differently. I personally evaluate knives as a package - steel, heat treat, grind, handle work, finish, etc. I have learned to appreciate the simplicity with which some of my favorite makers (here in US and Japan) approach their craft. It makes the end product even so more beautiful and appealing. 

Success of a maker doesn't always capture that. But for myself, I know it when I see it. 

M


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## Lefty

I'm not comparing Joel to Bob, in the least, but we have all agreed that perhaps the two biggest factors in the success of Kramer knives is, 1) camera presence-Bob is entertaining, knowledgable and well-spoken (so is Joel), and 2)Bob LOVES doing what he does, and his excitement is contagious. I think, as Dave alluded to, Joel is proving that sometimes these are the intangibles that make a person's product take off.
Regardless, I'd love to give one a try. I'm planning to hit up NYC this summer, so maybe I'll pay him a visit....


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## Dave Martell

I can't argue that Joel is personable and great with marketing because that's all true.


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## Lefty

But the rest...?


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## Dave Martell

Well I know he loves the knifemaking.....what else did I miss?


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## Lefty

Oh nothing (knowledgable). Ha


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## Dave Martell

Oh that?


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## jaybett

If by insular, you mean the forums are unwilling to try new products, then I'd disagree. The forums are always looking for the next great thing. In the past year that has brought us the DT ITK and the Konsuke HD knives. Geshin Hide could be the next darling of the forum. 

Just because Cut Brooklyn hasn't been a forum favorite doesn't mean its not a good knife. People on the forums need an excuse and really not much of one, to try out a new maker. The excuse could be price point, steel, or makers reputation. 

These criteria/excuses kept the forums from early on recognizing that Kramer's were an exceptional knife. Obviously Bob didn't need the forums approval for success. 

Jay


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

jaybett said:


> If by insular, you mean the forums are unwilling to try new products, then I'd disagree. The forums are always looking for the next great thing. In the past year that has brought us the DT ITK and the Konsuke HD knives. Geshin Hide could be the next darling of the forum.
> 
> Just because Cut Brooklyn hasn't been a forum favorite doesn't mean its not a good knife. People on the forums need an excuse and really not much of one, to try out a new maker. The excuse could be price point, steel, or makers reputation.
> 
> These criteria/excuses kept the forums from early on recognizing that Kramer's were an exceptional knife. Obviously Bob didn't need the forums approval for success.
> 
> Jay


 
+1 I couldn't agree more. After more than $15000 in kitchen knife purchases, I don't need a great reason. Just a little nudging.


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## mano

Before Japanese knives were on my radar I learned about Joel's knives when reading a blog by a Top Chef finalist who raved about it. 

I'm reasonably familiar with the basic profile of the people who buy Joel's knives and generally speaking we're unlikely to see them here. 

He appears to be a genuinely great guy who is passionate about making every knife his best. Joel sells and recommends knives by other makers. His waiting list is long, the few knives he makes on spec sell quickly and his production knives are in demand before they've hit the shelves. There's nothing to gain by offering knives for evaluation here or anywhere else.

I'd love to visit his shop though.


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## Marko Tsourkan

jaybett said:


> ...
> 
> These criteria/excuses kept the forums from early on recognizing that Kramer's were an exceptional knife. Obviously Bob didn't need the forums approval for success.
> 
> Jay


 

I have heard about Kramer knives on KF. I know of 6+ people who own one or more. Except for Scott, they didn't sell and are happy with their purchase (Adam sold but with a great regret, I think). 

Now, I finally got to inspected a Kramer knife up close and have seen his knife production video. Here is my take on it. Kramer knives are very good knvies. You get a whole package - steel, heat treat, grind, finish and an exceptionally crated handle. I am pretty immune to Bob Kramer marketing appeal, so I evaluated the knife based only on these criteria. What I have seen tells me that Bob is a skilled craftsman. Is he better than other top maker here in the US? *I doubt he is as a craftsman.* But he has done all right things to promote his work, so in that sense, he is better. 

I hope that you guys take a little bit more objective view on this matter - evaluate knives on their merits. As rockbox pointed out, people buy from people they like, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the product they sell is exceptional. 

My issues with CB knife is handle (on both lines), steel choice, grind (thickness), and lack of in-house heat treatment. For somebody as passionate about knife-making as Joel is claimed to be, he doesn't seem to go a traditional route - learning from others. So that puts him in a permanent B-maker category in my book. (I personally find heat treating the most fascinating of all processes in knife-making. B&W photography and cooking are the closest I could think of to HT, where even tiny manipulation can alter the outcome)

When you start blurring lines between A and B, then what is A? Why strive for it, when you can pay and play? And that is really a point I have been making for some time now. 

Getting feedback from people who are more demanding and less patronizing is a good way to assess if you are doing something right. I think a maker has more to gain. 

M


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## Chef Niloc

I don't have on but I have seen a few, did not like the ones I have seen. I'd say 1 step lower then mid tec, that's saying the DT ITK is a mid tec. Kind of heavy and did not feel right in the hand. I don't care much for the looks.


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## Salty dog

Any professional marketeers out there? Kill yourself.


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## Lefty

C'mon Salty! I've always liked Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson and Justi...oh...never mind. I thought you wrote Mouseketeers! :wink:


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## rockbox

Salty dog said:


> Any professional marketeers out there? Kill yourself.



Define marketeer. Everyone has to market their product or no one would know about them. That is why knife makers go to knife shows and post pictures of their knives on the internet. It doesn't matter if you have a cure for cancer if no one knows about it. 

If you are talking about people that who cares more about creating hype than product, I don't personally care for them either. However, I do respect that skill to a certain degree.


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## Eamon Burke

I say there's nothing wrong with making knives without suffering over every detail--someone has to make the entry-level knives, the Tojiros and Tanakas of the world. But I can't figure out why the American equivalent of a Moritaka costs 5 times as much. That's not a question for Joel, but for the general public. He charges that because that is how much people are willing to pay him for them. Why do line cooks want to give him a week's pay when a day's would buy a Tojiro--thinner, flatter, VG-10. It should be at least twice the knife, cause it's 7x the price!

I love Joel's business though. He seems a consummate knife guy, and I do envy his job.


*edit* that may have come out wrong. What I meant was that he clearly is making exactly the product people want, and for many this is their dream knife. I just don't understand why.


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## l r harner

im not so much a marketer as i am a web whore


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## Dave Martell

l r harner said:


> im not so much a marketer as i am a web whore



:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:


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## Noodle Soup

I was at the NYC knife show when the Kramer article came out in the New Yorker. The knifemakers were practically dancing in the streets over the thought that the story would convince people not normally associated with high end knives that the sky was the limit price wise on a handmade blade. As in you could judge performance by price and anyone with lots of money couldn't live without $1000+ kitchen knife.
Frankly, many knifemakers don't like knowledgeable knife users much. They would rather have their customers rich and unschooled. 
Sounds like Joel is tapping that market very well.


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## mr drinky

Marko Tsourkan said:


> The last time I checked, Cut Brooklyn used steel more suitable for hunting and field knives, than kitchen knives.
> 
> One style handle. Too thin IMO
> 
> M



For the journeyman line he uses 1095. I know that 10905 steel has been around for ages, but does anyone make kitchen knives out of it? It might be that that is a good steel for that forced-patina look he is going for, but is 1095 one of these steels better for hunting knives?

k.


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## Noodle Soup

1095 was the standard carbon steel for production kitchen and meat packing knives for many years. Ontario still uses it for the Old Hickory line and I'm pretty sure Russell Harrington uses it in their Dexter and Green River Lines.


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## Larrin

1095 is fine for kitchen knives. It's just a 0.95% carbon steel, like how White steel is 1.3% carbon steel. Smaller carbides and carbide volume than White steel. Also the high carbon of White steel means it can have much more retained austenite (=bad).


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## ajhuff

I don't understand why you guys are opposed to out sourcing heat treatment to people who specialize in it. Heat treating is not voodoo it's science. If you do it in house, more power to you but I would never knock someone for not doing it in-house. Matter of fact I would be more suspect of those that do it in-house. How do I know they know what they are doing? (from what I have seen, the custom makers on here such as Del, Butch, etc. do know what they are doing).I would definitely spend $300, $600, $1000 on a knife sent to a heat treat shop before I spent that kind of money on a knife from someone who is just starting out and learning as they go.

-AJ


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## mr drinky

I agree AJ. If you are good and can do the heat treating, more power to you, but even Dave outsourced his first batch of knives for heat treating and I am not complaining about my Martell knife being mid-tech. 

k.


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## Marko Tsourkan

That is true, but there is satisfaction of learning a new skill with some guidance from more established makers, trial-and-error and testing your work over and over again. Some of the best makers in US offer classes and there is plenty of (good) free advice on forums from the cream of the crop in knife-making world.

Heat treat is not a vodoo science - you get better as you do and constantly check and evaluate your work. Hardness testers. LN, HT kilns are readily available. 

As a knife maker, you should be able to evaluate your work for hardness, retained austenites, sharpness and use it as a feedback on your HT. I am not saying that everybody who does HT on their own does it better then commercial heat treatment, I am saying that those who are serious about knife making, should put in time and effort to learn to do it themselves. In-house heat treatment is essential to a complete product. I feel just as strong about hand sharpening.

M

PS: I am pretty sure Dave will do heat treatment himself very soon.


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## sudsy9977

so what about sending out knives for heat treatment makes your knives mid tech.....that's the stupidest thing i ever heard.....and when did eevryone become a steel snob here?.....what's wrong with 1095....ohh wait i know-52100 is a miracle steel.....maybe if i buy a 52100 knife i can be one of the chosen ones finally.....ryan


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## Marko Tsourkan

LOL. What's wrong about being a snob when you are expected to shell this kind of coin? 52100 is probably the best steel out there.


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## SpikeC

There is nothing "wrong" with 1095, but if you want maximum performance in a kitchen knife it is well down the list of carbon steels as far ad edge durability and other characteristics are concerned. Even lowly O1 is superior and it doesn't cost much either. It's not snobbery, it's just common sense. Look at the composition of the steel and tell me why 1095 is a good choice for a $600 knife.


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## Dave Martell

I still say it's not just what's in the steel it's what's done with it as well that effects the outcome. What if Bill Burke made a 1095 knife tomorrow? Would it sell? I bet it would and I also bet it'd work pretty damn good too.


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## Dave Martell

For myself I chose to outsource the heat treat for a couple of reasons.

1. It leaves me with zero questions, I removed a variable.

2. It makes financial sense.


In the short term this works out better for me but there's no doubt that I'll play with my own heat treat eventually just like I'll one day forge too but that day isn't today.


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## Marko Tsourkan

Makes sense, Dave - 

On a subject of favorite steel (including Bill's) here is a thread:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?1418-Favorite-steel


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## Eamon Burke

Exactly--it makes financial sense. For you to meet a price point. You had a number, I am sure, that was the cap of what(in your professional opinion) people would pay.

It's not just about the margin--materials, sweat equity and time vs profit--and it's not 100% about performance. It's a mixture of both plus the x-factor that comes with having a knife made in a way that makes the owner feel good about owning it. "My line knife was made with a space-age powder steel and quenched in liquid nitrogen" or "My mezzaluna is Tamahagane made from Western Alpine Magnetite and quenched in First Pressing Olive Oil". People pay for this, even when they buy "100% German Steel!" at Bed Bath and Beyond, or any knife with a warranty. I can see that his knives have performance people want--or else they wouldn't sell at all. I just don't see what the allure is of a 1095 knife, with a(presumably) great HT, a resin handle, ground to shape. I can easily see why someone would fill a pro kitchen with them, or buy one because they just moved out of their parent's house and need a good knife. But that price puts both of those scenarios into the unrealistic range. That's the price of a knife you buy that you just love to hold, and for many regular joes, $600 on one knife is an extravagant, end-up-in-the-doghouse, once-in-a-lifetime purchase. Imagine if you lost or broke it, it's like the cost of a mid-range car repair!

I do not fault Joel for this, and I'm not being a steel snob in suggesting that there are better performing steels for knives. What I am wondering is what is it about simple, monocolor handles, ultra pointy blades, a Brooklynite grinding them down, factory HT of plain-jane steel that makes people love it?

You know, the $130 Henckels(the expensive one) is "upgraded" from a plain, traditional black handle to a rubber comfort grip. :scratchhead:


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## ajhuff

Matter of perspective. If I look at chemistry, this white steel is just as Ho hum as 1095, yet it has quite a cult following.

-AJ


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

sudsy9977 said:


> so what about sending out knives for heat treatment makes your knives mid tech.....that's the stupidest thing i ever heard.....and when did eevryone become a steel snob here?.....what's wrong with 1095....ohh wait i know-52100 is a miracle steel.....maybe if i buy a 52100 knife i can be one of the chosen ones finally.....ryan


 
Wow, that sounds incredibly condescending to this crowd. We talk about this stuff in minute detail every day, to say we are steel snobs is to ignore the fact we spend an inordinate amount of time disecting topics that 99.9% of the world doesn't care about. We are snobs...knife, handle, steel, and all. If anyone should know that, it should be a veteran like you.


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## goodchef1

I think there is a consensus among the experts that the HT, and other factors are what make the steel. If this guy can do wonders with this "1095" and get people to shell out $600, then more power to him.

I have not seen any reviews on this knife yet so it may be premature to assess a value on this knife. Much of value is assessed by the market or owner. :wink:


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## Craig

A friend randomly sent me this today:

http://vimeo.com/31455885

I have no other comment really, I just thought I'd pass it along.


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## Andrew H

Craig said:


> A friend randomly sent me this today:
> 
> http://vimeo.com/31455885
> 
> I have no other comment really, I just thought I'd pass it along.



Thanks for posting the video. Still not so sure about his knives, especially at $600.


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## mr drinky

Thanks for the vid. It was very well done and interesting. 

k.


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## add

Good short. 
Nice film making.

Insular?

_"There are like 4 or 5 guys in the country that make hand made kitchen knives"._
:scratchhead:


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## Pensacola Tiger

add said:


> Good short.
> Nice film making.
> 
> Insular?
> 
> _"There are like 4 or 5 guys in the country that make hand made kitchen knives"._
> :scratchhead:



This is from a guy who thinks anything north of the Tappan Zee Bridge is "upstate New York".


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## tgraypots

I really, really like the video. Even clicked over to the site that put it together, and found a neighbor -- Rufus Hussey -- a guy who makes slingshots, aka bean shooters. As to Cut Brooklyn, the overall shape, blade/handle transition has grown on me. Needless to say, the whole homegrown/handmade thing resonates with me. I'm sometimes jealous of those that make more money at their art/craft than I do, but seldom jealous of those that have more fun at it than I do  I think Joel is living the life! But so am I.


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## Wagstaff

If I'm not mistaken, Rufus Hussey is no longer alive. There's a whole community on slingshotforums.... they're at least as crazy as the kitchen knife people!

That was a really cool video. Still, if/when the budget for a custom or handmade knife is available to me, I'm sure I'd buy from one of the makers on this forum. Or two or three.


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## RRLOVER

Very well done video. One thing I have to comment on is the 15,000 hours it takes to finally make a good knife.That seems like a bit of a stretch.


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## Marko Tsourkan

RRLOVER said:


> Very well done video. One thing I have to comment on is the 15,000 hours it takes to finally make a good knife.That seems like a bit of a stretch.


 
Well, there is 10K hours rule to get good at anything. I wonder how many more hours CB needs to make a good handle?


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## tgraypots

You're right. Rufus did pass away. My mistake. He WAS a neighbor, having lived just a few miles away. I probably wouldn't buy a CB either, but the man appears to be meeting a need in his community. What's wrong with that?


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## Andrew H

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Well, there is 10K hours rule to get good at anything. I wonder how many more hours CB needs to make a good handle?


 
I don't think Malcolm Gladwell's opinion can be classified as a rule....


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## tgraypots

One more thing --- we have a saying in the pottery biz -- it takes 40 hours a week for at least 7 years to become competent enough to make what you see in your mind's eye.


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## Marko Tsourkan

Andrew H said:


> I don't think Malcolm Gladwell's opinion can be classified as a rule....


 
10K hours was from Malcom Gladwell, but the idea is as old as the world. You need to put a few years of effort (often guided) to become good at anything, profession, sports, science, etc. 10K is roughly translates into 5 years of effort. 

To grind a knife well, one might not need 5 years, but to understand the craft (metallurgy, heat treatment, etc), 5 years might not be enough.. Look at Devin - 30 years in knife-making and still learning new things. 

M


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## sudsy9977

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Well, there is 10K hours rule to get good at anything. I wonder how many more hours CB needs to make a good handle?


 

So how many have u seen I person?......Ryan


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## Marko Tsourkan

sudsy9977 said:


> So how many have u seen I person?......Ryan


 
You mean have I seen one in person? No, but I get a good idea from pictures on CB site as well as WS site. 

I think if you go back into threads discussing CB on KF and KKF, handles were the turning down point. WS line handles area also very basic. Remind me of Lamson handles. 


M


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## RRLOVER

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Well, there is 10K hours rule to get good at anything.


 
So when I hit 75 years old I should finally be good at SEX.


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## Marko Tsourkan

With advances of modern medicine, everything is possible. Look at Berlusconi.


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## Andrew H

Marko Tsourkan said:


> 10K hours was from Malcom Gladwell, but the idea is as old as the world. You need to put a few years of effort (often guided) to become good at anything, profession, sports, science, etc. 10K is roughly translates into 5 years of effort.
> 
> To grind a knife well, one might not need 5 years, but to understand the craft (metallurgy, heat treatment, etc), 5 years might not be enough.. Look at Devin - 30 years in knife-making and still learning new things.
> 
> M


 
If you mean the idea that being good at something takes time is as old as the world, yes, you would be right. Still I don't think that it can be called a rule, and I don't think it applies to everything.


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## mr drinky

Marko Tsourkan said:


> With advances of modern medicine, everything is possible. Look at Berlusconi.



And the advances just happened. Read this article about the Mayo Clinic. They have anti-aging mice already. 

http://www.startribune.com/nation/133130703.html

k.


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## sudsy9977

I've seen a few in person and i thought the handles were nicely done.....i didn't necessarily agree with some of the materials or colors but they were nice regardless.....Ryan


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## RRLOVER

From the pics I have seen his F&F is very nice.Handle shapes are to subjective to take anybody's opinion serious.I am happy that he is having success at something he loves to do.


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## Marko Tsourkan

mr drinky said:


> And the advances just happened. Read this article about the Mayo Clinic. They have anti-aging mice already.
> 
> http://www.startribune.com/nation/133130703.html
> 
> k.


 
I read it already. Pretty amazing stuff.


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## David Metzger

Just a quick comment on 1095 only from what I gather from other knife makers and metalurgists. 1095 is a good basic steel which in many ways is very suitable to knives, it can be made sharp, fine grained, a high RC hardness is easy, and it has good toughness. 1095 is inexpensive and does not seem to be made to tight tolerances of carbon content and perhaps unwanted inclusions. This may effect the correct heat treat as well as the quality of the finish. If a knife maker is able to get a consistent product, it should be quite good. The added ingredients in o1 and 52100 mostly add to better wear, more consistent heat treatment and toughness I believe.


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## thewildonions

[/QUOTE]I have not seen any reviews on this knife yet so it may be premature to assess a value on this knife. Much of value is assessed by the market or owner. :wink:[/QUOTE]

I have used a Cpm154 Cut Brooklyn Prospect going on four years now. I have used it both in professional kitchens as well as at home. I will agree that this particular blade profile is not optimal for all cutting styles but it works, just as many French chef knives before it. The handle is comfortable for hours of use despite the highlighter colors! I custom ordered mine for length and spine thickness which Joel had little problem accommodating. I would order another PM steel knife from Joel because cares about what he's doing and he's working hard to get quality cutlery to cooks everywhere. He is not a cook so he can only design based on instinct and feedback. If he doesn't get quality feedback from discriminating users, his product suffers. Reach out to him and be a part of the solution. I value the knife because Joel is young, open-minded and only getting better!


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## hypnos

Marko Tsourkan said:


> LOL. What's wrong about being a snob when you are expected to shell this kind of coin? 52100 is probably the best steel out there.



Okay... I'll bite. Why do you think that 52100 steel is the best?

I am a newbie who is looking to upgrade from my Shun Classics.

Jeff


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## Crothcipt

welcome hypnos


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## RRLOVER

hypnos said:


> Okay... I'll bite. Why do you think that 52100 steel is the best?
> 
> I am a newbie who is looking to upgrade from my Shun Classics.
> 
> Jeff



Welcome!!......He feels it's the best,that really does not make it the best.Claiming the best steel is like me claiming a women with a big A$$ is the best(it is),it's only what you like that makes something the best.


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## chinacats

hypnos said:


> Okay... I'll bite. Why do you think that 52100 steel is the best?
> 
> I am a newbie who is looking to upgrade from my Shun Classics.
> 
> Jeff



Welcome...lots of good steel around here! Should be fun replacing those Shuns.


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## knyfeknerd

RRLOVER said:


> Claiming the best steel is like me claiming a women with a big A$$ is the best(it is)



Yes! I'll take a big A$$ over some Shun steel any day!


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## Marko Tsourkan

hypnos said:


> Okay... I'll bite. Why do you think that 52100 steel is the best?
> 
> I am a newbie who is looking to upgrade from my Shun Classics.
> 
> Jeff



Didn't see this addressed to me. 

There are a few good knife steels on the market, but 52100 is probably one of the best out of carbon steels. It has fine grain, some resistance to rust, but more importantly, it responds very well to heat treatment. One can heat treat for sharpness, wear resistance, or both. 

Another great thing about 52100 is it responds very well to stropping. I have sent knives to pro kitchen for testing (with my earlier HT which since improved) and the feedback I got was that a knife could go for a month or even longer between sharpening, with just stropping. How many steels could do that?

Makers like Bob Kramer, Bill Burke, Ed Fowler and countless others use 52100 extensively and some even consider it "super steel". Kind of funny, as on paper, it is just an OK steel. 

I don't want to sound like I am shelling for 52100, so I will continue sending out knives for testing in pro environment and have them reviewed on the forum. This hopefully will settle the claim. 

M


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## Morty1007

Can't believe all the Cut Brooklyn Knife bashing going on, on this forum. Joels an artist, his medium is steel, are they the best in the world? who cares? there a thing of beauty, and any Chef, home cook, rich guy , Poor guy that has the honour of holding one in his hand should appreciate the love and passion that went into making that knife with his 2 hands from start to finish. 
I had the good fortune to be given one as a gift from a very wealthy cousin after retiring from the restaurant business after 23 years. Although I'm not a papered chef i do know my way around a kitchen and achieved 4 diamond status for 12 years exclusively in my city when my restaurant was.I have only had limited experience with my Cut Brooklyn Knife as i just received it a few weeks ago, but absolutely love it for its weighting, edge, handle, and beautiful appearance. I hope other chefs soon get the opportunity to put one of J:biggrinels knives to the test and comment on there experience.


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## ecchef

Wow Morty...your very first post is a polemic in response to a thread that's been inactive for almost 2 years? C'mon, show us something better than that!

BTW, welcome to the forums.


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## panda

by bashing do you actually mean lack of hype? i don't find them pretty either so to me there is nothing about those knives that make me interested in even demoing one.


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## Pensacola Tiger

Welcome to KKF, Morty.

I found that the Cut Brooklyn I used was a nice enough knife, but nothing special, certainly nothing that could possibly justify the price tag.

Rick


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## marc4pt0

Although not too many knives get featured in Playboy, at least not that I know of...
Pics courtesy of a friend visiting a specific store.


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## chefcomesback

Marc4pt0 please tell me this is a photoshop:bigeek:


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## cheezit

"Playboy Edition" sold by DC Sharp, in Washington, DC. That's a huge price tag/mark up for such an ugly knife. Handle looks way too thin to be comfortable.


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## EdipisReks

wow.


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## Salty dog

That is one flat a$s blade.

How do you spell sticktion?


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## Dave Kinogie

[video=youtube;PRLHbHm1tB4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRLHbHm1tB4[/video]


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## mpukas

Rather than start a new thread, I figured I'd dig this one up... 

Cut Brooklyn was featured in a Tasting Table entry today. 
http://www.tastingtable.com/entry_d...harp_2014_10_07&utm_content=Cooking_editorial 

In the article there are links to three other new-ish knife makers, that have had some experience working w/ Cut Brooklyn, two of which are women. 

I kinda like Moriah Cowles knives. Simple and they look like they could actually be pretty good to use. $600 for a 10" chef's knife???!!! Really???!!! 

But Chelsea Miller's knives, oh my... hat's off to her for learning a craft from her father and trying to be creative, but the knives that she's making form files and rasps are just MEGA FAIL for real kitchen use. And $450 for an old file that's had an edge ground onto it and piece of wood glued on for an awkward handle???!!! 




Our world seems to be in a place now where more and more people are doing things "the old way" (knives, jeans, clothing, shoes, food, axes, metal works, jewelry, etc - take your pick), and at the same time putting their own creative twist on whatever they're making. I'm not one to ever discourage anyone from doing anything, trying something new, and making something themselves, but if you can't get the basics right, then anything "new" that you try will most likely be mediocre at best. Just because it's "hand made" and you've got a nostalgic story behind your brand does not justify a high price tag for mid-level quality - at best - products. Our consumer age is more interested in the brand and the story behind it than the actual product themselves. 

Rant over. Carry on! :laugh:


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## EdipisReks

But they are like, artisanal, man.


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## XooMG

It's always an interesting, if sometimes infuriating, process trying to get through to some of the newer artisans. Some have heart but too much pride...they'll take advice six months after the fact (usually they'll dismiss it in the beginning with various excuses) and try to convince people that their own diligent research has led them to changes and improvements.

Eh, I guess it's still better to try sometimes and see if that delayed acceptance manifests and the market improves a teency bit as a result.


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## Mucho Bocho

mpukas said:


> Rather than start a new thread, I figured I'd dig this one up...
> 
> Cut Brooklyn was featured in a Tasting Table entry today.
> http://www.tastingtable.com/entry_d...harp_2014_10_07&utm_content=Cooking_editorial
> 
> In the article there are links to three other new-ish knife makers, that have had some experience working w/ Cut Brooklyn, two of which are women.
> 
> I kinda like Moriah Cowles knives. Simple and they look like they could actually be pretty good to use. $600 for a 10" chef's knife???!!! Really???!!!
> 
> But Chelsea Miller's knives, oh my... hat's off to her for learning a craft from her father and trying to be creative, but the knives that she's making form files and rasps are just MEGA FAIL for real kitchen use. And $450 for an old file that's had an edge ground onto it and piece of wood glued on for an awkward handle???!!!
> 
> View attachment 24929
> 
> 
> Our world seems to be in a place now where more and more people are doing things "the old way" (knives, jeans, clothing, shoes, food, axes, metal works, jewelry, etc - take your pick), and at the same time putting their own creative twist on whatever they're making. I'm not one to ever discourage anyone from doing anything, trying something new, and making something themselves, but if you can't get the basics right, then anything "new" that you try will most likely be mediocre at best. Just because it's "hand made" and you've got a nostalgic story behind your brand does not justify a high price tag for mid-level quality - at best - products. Our consumer age is more interested in the brand and the story behind it than the actual product themselves.
> 
> Rant over. Carry on! :laugh:



Well said Michael. You're another long term valued KKF member we haven't heard enough from lately.


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## DeepCSweede

Stiction


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## DeepCSweede

Salty dog said:


> That is one flat a$s blade.
> 
> How do you spell sticktion?



I spell it S T I C T I O N - Stiction


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## Dave Martell

Isn't that the grater knife version?


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## CutFingers

I think his prices are out of line with his skill level. That's based on what he sells. If you look past the cool hipster video, and at the product there is something you are either going to love or hate. With all custom things people have different preferences.

I personally like his story and his success as an artist despite his lack of master craftsmanship. I think it's absurd to charge what he does.


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## Don Nguyen

CutFingers said:


> I think his prices are out of line with his skill level. That's based on what he sells. If you look past the cool hipster video, and at the product there is something you are either going to love or hate. With all custom things people have different preferences.
> 
> I personally like his story and his success as an artist despite his lack of master craftsmanship. I think it's absurd to charge what he does.



Why is it so absurd? I don't really understand the idea of having a 'standard' of pricing dependent on how good you are or how long you've been doing it. If he's clearly got an audience for his work and his business is thriving, I don't see the issue. Why should a maker limit one's self because the norm is to charge a certain price? Knife making as a profession is not only about making knives but being able to get them out there with an effective gain. I rather like the fact that there are makers out there who are rewarding themselves well for their practice.


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## boomchakabowwow

there's an ass for every seat..

i love living in a world where we all have a differing opinion..good thread.


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## Hbeernink

mpukas said:


> Rather than start a new thread, I figured I'd dig this one up...
> 
> Cut Brooklyn was featured in a Tasting Table entry today.
> http://www.tastingtable.com/entry_d...harp_2014_10_07&utm_content=Cooking_editorial
> 
> In the article there are links to three other new-ish knife makers, that have had some experience working w/ Cut Brooklyn, two of which are women.
> 
> I kinda like Moriah Cowles knives. Simple and they look like they could actually be pretty good to use. $600 for a 10" chef's knife???!!! Really???!!!
> 
> But Chelsea Miller's knives, oh my... hat's off to her for learning a craft from her father and trying to be creative, but the knives that she's making form files and rasps are just MEGA FAIL for real kitchen use. And $450 for an old file that's had an edge ground onto it and piece of wood glued on for an awkward handle???!!!
> 
> View attachment 24929
> 
> 
> Rant over. Carry on! :laugh:




Bloodroot Blades makes some really nice knives out of old files (and other old bits of metal, like sawmill saw blades....) I don't always like BB's designs, but the few that I've used have been great performers.

I do have a Moriah Cowles knife, and really enjoy it for detailed work - it's a smaller chef's, and the thinness of the tip and the very flat profile works exceptionally well for certain tasks.


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## CutFingers

I see your point Don...He's got a niche, he went through the learning curve now he's charging what he can get. But I think he's very pricey compared what else is out there. So many other choices. I do believe an artist is entitled to charge whatever he wants. 

Yes absolutely I think pricing of knives should depend on skill of the maker. If I am buying a knife marketed as a hand made product I want to own part of the artistic skill. I suppose I am a bit of a lunatic when it comes to the arts. If I see a Honyaki gyuto for sell at 1,000$...then I see some guy in Brooklyn charging 500$ for something he didn't even forge...I ask myself is this guy 50 percent as good as the guy who actually worked the steel? 

We pay what we want for materialistic art and goods. Knives are amazing. I wish the best to all aspiring knife makers. I just wish we could have more realistic expectations of getting what we pay for. An artist who succeeds is a marvelous thing.

I wish Cut Brooklyn the best, but I'd never pay that kind of coin when I could get something made in a more intimate handmade tradition from Japan.


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## chinacats

Price is in the eyes of the two parties involved, classic supply and demand and evidently he has the demand. I've not used his knives to know how they cut, but I'm pretty sure that's not what I'm looking for in a knife.


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## rami_m

CutFingers said:


> .
> 
> I wish Cut Brooklyn the best, but I'd never pay that kind of coin when I could get something made in a more intimate handmade tradition from Japan.



Here is where I very respectfully disagree with you. There is nothing special about Japanese smiths in my opinion. All I am looking for is performance, is that knife cut better than the other one? It's nice to have bling but not to sacrifice performance.


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## Lefty

I'll be testing out a Cut Brooklyn very soon, and will hopefully remember to get back to this thread with some of my thoughts regarding Joel's knives. 

I will say that Bloodroot Blades are flat out performers (recycled materials or not), and Moriah Cowles makes some really, really promising pieces. She's cool **** too. She'll be around for a while.


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## turbochef422

Is like to try a cut Brooklyn knife as I do think for myself id rather own a shig or Kato or something along those lines but I do want to give one a go.


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## Hbeernink

Lefty said:


> I'll be testing out a Cut Brooklyn very soon, and will hopefully remember to get back to this thread with some of my thoughts regarding Joel's knives.
> 
> I will say that Bloodroot Blades are flat out performers (recycled materials or not), and Moriah Cowles makes some really, really promising pieces. She's cool **** too. She'll be around for a while.




I'm with lefty on this- on both points.


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## EdipisReks

rami_m said:


> There is nothing special about Japanese smiths in my opinion



Nothing special about car makers from Modena or Stuttgart, either. The roller skates I fabricated out of used condoms and horse hoof files move too, just like Ferrari and Porsche! Linearly! 

Idiot.


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## rami_m

EdipisReks said:


> Nothing special about car makers from Modena or Stuttgart, either. The roller skates I fabricated out of used condoms and horse hoof files move too, just like Ferrari and Porsche! Linearly!
> 
> Idiot.



I think you missed my point entirely. There are some good Japanese smiths as well as good American smiths. The product is more important than nationality. There is an entire thread around this.

Read the entire post next time mate.


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## easy13

Since I am one of the only or few members of KKF from Brooklyn (I think DitmasPork also hails from BK) I thought I might chime in. Joel is a cool guy and always friendly when he is in the shop along with the rest of the staff. They do a great repair and sharpening service for a good price and are always down to talk shop. I would love to own one, but once you get in that $500+ range for a gyuto ($650 for a Cut BK 240 Journeyman) I only purchase a few a year and there is always something else that catches my eye/wallet over one. I wouldn't spend $350 on a petty by any maker or $250. I do like some of the newer handles and shapes coming out of there though and it may be a bit more motivation to grab one up.


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## Marcelo Amaral

If i could, i would like to try every hand made knife in the world, just out of curiousity. I'm sure a lot of you feel that way too. Since my resources are not as big as i would like, i'm still choosing to buy a, for instance, $400 white #2 Kiritsuke 270mm Keijiro Doi knife or a $700 240mm Fujiwara Teruyasu Denka Gyuto than a $650 Cut BK 240 Journeyman. But that's just my opinion due to my small bank account.


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## mhlee

rami_m said:


> I think you missed my point entirely. There are some good Japanese smiths as well as good American smiths. The product is more important than nationality. There is an entire thread around this.
> 
> Read the entire post next time mate.



Read your post. Your post said nothing about other smiths, only Japanese smiths.


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## mr drinky

Wow. First off, it is nice to open a thread and see so many old-hand forum members getting worked up, but also, I should have known better than to open a thread about opinions on Cut Brooklyn. That's my bad. 

Now I have to PM mhlee about california wine 

Cheers,

k.


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## brainsausage

I think Chinacats had it right, it only matters if the price is agreeable for the two parties involved. However... Are Kramer's knives worth the thousands we see every few months? Is the prices he or CB (which are obviously far apart in terms of pricing, but they share the american made media adoration) fetching influencing the market? I think that's a far more interesting aspect of this conversation...


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## ecchef

Sorry to say, but I've come to the conclusion that hype trumps everything in the US these days.


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