# Extra-coarse-grit stone recommendation requested.



## Qapla' (Oct 11, 2020)

The quick info:

Main uses: Most often honbazuke'ing single-bevel carbon-steel knives, though I would prefer something versatile enough to be used on other steels (e.g. if a "normal" knife needs to be repaired).
Water use: Splash-and-go preferred, conventional-soaking ok. *No permasoaking.*
Other specifics of use: Must be resurfaceable with an Atoma 140.
Next stone in progression: JNS Matsukusuyama 300

What I'm currently looking at (these are all "gambles", as I am unfamiliar with any of them):
* Sword-polisher-style Kongoto stones in the ~150 range. (This sort of thing might be only really good for low-alloy steels, though.)
* Naniwa Carbon-Lobster 80
* Nubatama Green 180 or Platinum 150

What do you all consider recommendable for these uses?


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## Matus (Oct 11, 2020)

Shapton Pro 120 and a LOT of pressure. I would recommend to flatten it with sandpapered though. Any stone this coarse will tend to wear out unnecessarily fast. JNS300 will be a good next step.
To make you the stone last longer just glue it on a piece of wood or hard PVC


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## ian (Oct 11, 2020)

“Must be resurfaceable with an Atoma 140.“ seems to kill the Pro 120.

Glass 120 is resurfaceable with an Atoma.


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 11, 2020)

I like the Shapton m24 #120. But, as @Matus said, don’t use an atoma on it unless you want to shorten the life of your atoma by a lot. Some sandpaper on the backside of an atoma works great though.


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## Knife2meatu (Oct 11, 2020)

Definitely not Naniwa Carbon-Lobster 80.


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## GorillaGrunt (Oct 11, 2020)

In my experience anything coarser than 300 or so, the Atoma will still abrade it but the diamonds don’t last long at all. Sandpaper or even a cheap coarse stone is probably a more cost effective solution for flattening. I’ve got a Shapton Glass 120, don’t like it, pretty much use that for flattening other stones. Shapton Pro 120, that one’s not bad. Sigma 240, well known for working incredibly fast, dishing fast and messily, and feeling and sounding just terrible but this stone gets it done. I’m also not convinced that anything I’ve tried has given me better results than a 220 pink brick (except the 240 with its aforementioned drawbacks).


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## M1k3 (Oct 11, 2020)

I'd get a Sigma 240. I have the Shapton Pro 120. It will definitely not be atoma friendly. Loose SiC is better for it.


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## kayman67 (Oct 11, 2020)

Diamond Hand Pad 15003


Professional Electroplated Diamond Hand Pad. Ideal for glass edge or shell repair, removes sharp edges, uneven surface or smooth corners.




glasspolishshop.com





Surface Shapton Pro 120 and all those glazing SiC coarse stones with this. It's 100x faster and better than a brand new Atoma 140.


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## jacko9 (Oct 11, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> The quick info:
> 
> Main uses: Most often honbazuke'ing single-bevel carbon-steel knives, though I would prefer something versatile enough to be used on other steels (e.g. if a "normal" knife needs to be repaired).
> Water use: Splash-and-go preferred, conventional-soaking ok. *No permasoaking.*
> ...



I started with the Nubatama 150 but it was way too thirsty with water almost just running right through it. Then I got the Nubatama 180 Black (the 220 black was out of stock) and I now have my course stone and it can be flattened with the Atoma 140. The 180 black is a pretty durable stone as well as I do all my sharpening in my wood shop and the stone was accidentally shoved off my bench onto the concrete with just a little nick at the edge.


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## ian (Oct 11, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Diamond Hand Pad 15003
> 
> 
> Professional Electroplated Diamond Hand Pad. Ideal for glass edge or shell repair, removes sharp edges, uneven surface or smooth corners.
> ...



It’s not a soft backing, right?


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## Qapla' (Oct 11, 2020)

Sounds like it might be time to use different diamond-plates or to use sandpaper then.

Like the Shapton Pro 120, I liked the Nubatama Black 180 a lot at first, but it clogged quite badly over extended use. Though unlike the Shapton Pro 120, the Nubatama Black 180 is resurfaceable with Atoma's and a normal amount of pressure. It's still usable, but only as a "slurry source" that I'm constantly using the Atoma on, and not so usable as a normal stone the way my stones of other grit-levels are. (So far I have only been using it for white-steel.)


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## inferno (Oct 11, 2020)

its not recommended to flatten coarse stones with d plates. the grit from the stones is so coarse so it will kinda remove the diamonds on the plates. 
you can of coarse do it. but you will kill your diamond plate quite quickly. better get a sacrificial SiC stone coarse. or SiC powder.
------------

as for the stones:
Sigma 240 is quite good. it plows massive deep scratches in the steel. its a soaker and imo needs to be sealed to be usable at all. semi muddy. wears quite fast.

shapton pro 120 is very fast if you can push very hard. otherwise i'd say its only on par with the shapton 220. s&g. 

shapton pro 220, s&g. muddy or not depending on how you use it. its fast. this is my favorite coarse stone. i thinks its better than the sigma.

glass 220. faster than the pro, slower to wear. only 7-8mm of stone though. very good i think. i just would like to see a 15-20mm of this one.

100 grit black SiC stone (no oil, sealed). total crap. it cut for like 1 minute then it kinda stopped cutting. *its good for flattening other coarse stones though!*

India copy (C/F) ran with water, sealed. not very good imo. it doesn't release any abrasive so when it stops cutting you need to resurface it.

----------------

the king/sun tiger 220/240 green SiC might be similar to the sigma, its half the price since its twice as big.


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## M1k3 (Oct 11, 2020)

Has anyone tried these? Suehiro GC-3 Kongou-to #180 Knife Sharpening Stone









SAKAIDEN WATOISHI Original Whetstone/COARSE #220 Standard & Extra Large | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for SAKAIDEN WATOISHI Original Whetstone/COARSE #220 Standard & Extra Large at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com













SAKAIDEN WATOISHI Original Whetstone/COARSE #220 Standard & Extra Large | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for SAKAIDEN WATOISHI Original Whetstone/COARSE #220 Standard & Extra Large at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## kayman67 (Oct 11, 2020)

ian said:


> It’s not a soft backing, right?



The actual plate is rigid enough for surface conditioning and even removal of various high spots. Pretty cheap usually and they last long after anything diamond plate sharpening related would. I've been using these pads for years, but only recently started to test on various stones just to see how far could they be used. Turns out there is no real limit considerig the grits available as well.


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 11, 2020)

I've used those in pottery, they're nice and make you wonder why atomas are so expensive. The foam block is pretty dense, and like kayman says, the diamond plate has enough stiffness on its own. It keeps pretty flat if you don't put any downward pressure on it. Would be useful for resurfacing a stone, but maybe not flattening just because of how small they are. Might end up with a nearly-flat dish, but I don't know, maybe it works.


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## Kawa (Oct 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> its not recommended to flatten coarse stones with d plates. the grit from the stones is so coarse so it will kinda remove the diamonds on the plates.
> you can of coarse do it. but you will kill your diamond plate quite quickly. better get a sacrificial SiC stone coarse. or SiC powder.
> ------------
> 
> ...



I can add to this my experience with Shapton glass 120, the only one u didnt use it seems:

doesnt feel 'double as coarse' as the shapton pro 220 (which i also have and like very much)
Biggest minus is that it glazes within a few minutes, then it acts like my chosera 600...
shapton pro 220 keeps it gritt perfectly while it doesn't ditch or wears extremely fast. My naniwa superstone 220 is just as fast as the shapton pro 220, but wears twice as fast.
SiC brings the glass 120 back to original, but again, for only a few minutes.

I would go pro 220, it's s&g and a fast and reliable cutter for not too much money
I keep it flat with a Naniwa 220 flattening stone. Works perfectly, so the atoma140 will work i guess


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## Kawa (Oct 12, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> The quick info:
> 
> Main uses: Most often honbazuke'ing single-bevel carbon-steel knives, though I would prefer something versatile enough to be used on other steels (e.g. if a "normal" knife needs to be repaired).
> Water use: Splash-and-go preferred, conventional-soaking ok. *No permasoaking.*
> ...



O, and I do have the Naniwa carbon lobster 80 aswell 

Stay away from it. It is very small, so you wobble a lot if you are used to more common sizes.

But it feels like it is something you win at the local fair at those gabling games...
It releases abbrasives so fast, that actual holes appear if you continue. Resulting in a stone which has different gritt spots all over.

I only use it to start a really really really beat up knife, when I dont want to f#ck up my better stones. And i dont really care about my coarse stones that much... Those once in a year, top 3 worse knives ever only

Coming to think of it, I guess I should try it as a flattening stone


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## LewRob80 (Oct 12, 2020)

Nanohone 200 is my new favourite coarse stone, great aggressive cutting, splash and go, with nice feed back


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## Qapla' (Oct 12, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Has anyone tried these? Suehiro GC-3 Kongou-to #180 Knife Sharpening Stone
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAKAIDEN-W...COARSE-220-Standard-Extra-Large-/174182845540
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAKAIDEN-W...COARSE-220-Standard-Extra-Large-/174182845540


That's pretty interesting actually; I wasn't aware that Suehiro made Kongô-to stones. (The ones I was looking at were the Namikawa ones, e.g. an Asahi or their own brand item. I have no idea whether Japanese natural Kongô-to stones exist.)

As far as Suehiro extra-low-grit stones go, I'm aware of their Debado LD 180 (seemingly nowhere to be found for sale) and their Debado MD 200 (seems to be available at MTCKitchen), but haven't got my hands on one so far.


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## M1k3 (Oct 12, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> That's pretty interesting actually; I wasn't aware that Suehiro made Kongô-to stones. (The ones I was looking at were the Namikawa ones, e.g. an Asahi or their own brand item. I have no idea whether Japanese natural Kongô-to stones exist.)
> 
> As far as Suehiro extra-low-grit stones go, I'm aware of their Debado LD 180 (seemingly nowhere to be found for sale) and their Debado MD 200 (seems to be available at MTCKitchen), but haven't got my hands on one so far.





https://www.amazon.com/Suehiro-Debado-LD-21-Coarse-sharpening/dp/B07BWJTTDL


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 1, 2020)

inferno said:


> its not recommended to flatten coarse stones with d plates. the grit from the stones is so coarse so it will kinda remove the diamonds on the plates.
> you can of coarse do it. but you will kill your diamond plate quite quickly. better get a sacrificial SiC stone coarse. or SiC powder.


I have a very specific question that seemed better to ask here than to start a new thread. I'm planning to buy a course Crystolon to flatten the Pro 120. They should be close to the same grit, or the Shapton might be slightly finer based on what I've read. Will the tough oilstone binder plus SiC hold up to the weaker magnesium binder plus AlOx, or will I eventually need another solution to flatten the Crystolon? I'm trying to avoid dealing with SiC powder if possible


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## PappaG (Dec 1, 2020)

Debado md 200 
Have it sitting in a box. have not used it yet.... some time in the new year...

opps, min necro


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## M1k3 (Dec 1, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I have a very specific question that seemed better to ask here than to start a new thread. I'm planning to buy a course Crystolon to flatten the Pro 120. They should be close to the same grit, or the Shapton might be slightly finer based on what I've read. Will the tough oilstone binder plus SiC hold up to the weaker magnesium binder plus AlOx, or will I eventually need another solution to flatten the Crystolon? I'm trying to avoid dealing with SiC powder if possible


If you go that route, you'll most likely want to boil the oil (or wax?) out of the Crystolon first, if they still do that to them. You're going to eventually need to flatten the Crystolon.


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## M1k3 (Dec 1, 2020)

I've been using 3m Cubitron 60 grit sandpaper for my Shapton Pro 120. 80 or 120 grit would work also, just a little slower.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 1, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> If you go that route, you'll most likely want to boil the oil (or wax?) out of the Crystolon first, if they still do that to them. You're going to eventually need to flatten the Crystolon.



You are correct, Crystolon and India stones are pre-soaked in oil.

I'd use sandpaper or a lapidary disc before I'd go that route.


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## DanielC (Dec 1, 2020)

220 Nubatama Platinum


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 1, 2020)

DHunter86 said:


> The 3M Cubitron II sandpaper is really good. Really like the polymer backing that's non-slip. Can definitely recommend.
> 
> I've also had luck using cheap Chinese made #120 and #80 grit diamond plates (about $6 per plate without backing here in Singapore) on the Shapton Pro 120. The #80 grit definitely brings back the factory surface (but I wouldn't use it on any other sharpening stone as it leaves deep gouges).


From a different thread. Maybe the 80 grit diamond plate from the evil empire is a better idea.


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## M1k3 (Dec 1, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> From a different thread. Maybe the 80 grit diamond plate from the evil empire is a better idea.


If it's for the SP 120, it'll laugh at the diamond bonding of the plate, slowly. Atoma and DMT Dia-flat would be better. The Nanohone ones should hold up also. They are expensive too.


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 1, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> If it's for the SP 120, it'll laugh at the diamond bonding of the plate, slowly. Atoma and DMT Dia-flat would be better. The Nanohone ones should hold up also. They are expensive too.


Sad  I hate the idea of a disposable solution, but I hate even more the idea of spending 5 times the cost on a maintenance tool. Maybe in this case sandpaper would be best. Though this might be a good candidate for the three-stone method


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## M1k3 (Dec 1, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> Sad  I hate the idea of a disposable solution, but I hate even more the idea of spending 5 times the cost on a maintenance tool. Maybe in this case sandpaper would be best. Though this might be a good candidate for the three-stone method


I only use sandpaper for that one stone. Everything else I have isn't as hard and coarse. So a diamond plate lasts way longer. Not that I've found out the hard way or anything


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## inferno (Dec 2, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I have a very specific question that seemed better to ask here than to start a new thread. I'm planning to buy a course Crystolon to flatten the Pro 120. They should be close to the same grit, or the Shapton might be slightly finer based on what I've read. Will the tough oilstone binder plus SiC hold up to the weaker magnesium binder plus AlOx, or will I eventually need another solution to flatten the Crystolon? I'm trying to avoid dealing with SiC powder if possible



i have not used my 100 grit Sic stone on the 120 pro. but i have used it on the 220 and up and there it works very well! you have to flatten the Sic stone too some times with loose grit. you could also simply sprinkle loose grit between the SiC stone and another stone. that works very fast.

i recommend using loose grit on the 120. coarse stones are picky with the surface condition to cut well. also using loose grit to flatten stones is extremely fast. i would not sacrifice an atoma for the 120. you will ruin it.


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## DHunter86 (Dec 2, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Atoma and DMT Dia-flat would be better.



I've tried those too, but sadly the surface of the SP120 won't be back to factory finish, i.e., it cuts much slower than it ought to. One alternative that I've yet to try is to use the very edges of the Atoma 140 plate to scratch the surface after flattening. This tends to leave a coarser surface on JNats and is beneficial as conditioning for some harder stones; this should work here as well.

Not sure about the Nanohones as I've yet to try them. I went with the cheap Diamond plates as they're way less messy than SiC powder, which works but is messy. I do agree that these plates wear much faster than Atomas though, but once they wear, they make nice diamond nagura for naturals.


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## Kawa (Dec 2, 2020)

SiC powder is messy, and for me it takes more time to set up then a flattening stone.

But if one of your problems is that the SP120 isnt factory finish after flattening, loose SiC powder is the solution.
Sadly, once you felt the original coarseness after SiC powder again, you realize that that original feeling wont hold for a long time. Most of my coarse stones are getting slick again during one knife session.

So I do something like this: if I need a 400ish stone, I can take my lapped pro400. After one session I won't see it as a 400 anymore. So untill lapped again, I move it up one gritt in my mind, using it as a medium 1000ish kinda stone.


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 2, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I have a very specific question that seemed better to ask here than to start a new thread. I'm planning to buy a course Crystolon to flatten the Pro 120. They should be close to the same grit, or the Shapton might be slightly finer based on what I've read. Will the tough oilstone binder plus SiC hold up to the weaker magnesium binder plus AlOx, or will I eventually need another solution to flatten the Crystolon? I'm trying to avoid dealing with SiC powder if possible


Replying to myself, lol... but if anyone's curious, the Pro 120 beats a coarse Crystolon. The abundance of blue mud was the first indication, confirmed by the marked difference between the two sides of the Crystolon after about 30 sec of lapping. Oh well.

But damn the Pro 120 is beastly. As a home user I don't need this much power. I'll probably stick with the GS500 for my coarsest stone, mainly because it means the Atoma 400 becomes a nice all-in-one flattening solution for all my stones. Y'all ultra coarse people are crazy, but in a good way.


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## Cliff (Dec 2, 2020)

I have an 80-grit diamond plate to flatten coarse stones. I'm a fan of the SP 120.


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## Qapla' (Dec 2, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> If it's for the SP 120, it'll laugh at the diamond bonding of the plate, slowly. Atoma and DMT Dia-flat would be better. The Nanohone ones should hold up also. They are expensive too.


How would you compare the Atoma, DMT and Nanohone plates? I notice that the Dia-flat and the Nanohone Lapping Plate are far more expensive than Atoma's are.



DanielC said:


> 220 Nubatama Platinum


What steels have you used it with, and what else can you tell us about it?


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## M1k3 (Dec 2, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> How would you compare the Atoma, DMT and Nanohone plates? I notice that the Dia-flat and the Nanohone Lapping Plate are far more expensive than Atoma's are.
> 
> 
> What steels have you used it with, and what else can you tell us about it?


Nanohone > Dia-flat > atoma
Basically in succession of price.

Honestly for super hard stones, loose SiC or sandpaper is the way to go. It'll lengthen the life of any diamond plate tremendously.


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## Qapla' (Dec 3, 2020)

For those who do use loose SiC powder, how do you most often use it? (Things like the Shapton Naoru are quite expensive.)


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## DHunter86 (Dec 3, 2020)

Ideally I'd like to get float glass, but I've been using them on tiles.


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## Ben.G. (Dec 4, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> For those who do use loose SiC powder, how do you most often use it? (Things like the Shapton Naoru are quite expensive.)


I called a glass shop near me. He cut and beveled a 12”x12” piece of glass for $10.CAD. it works great. 
I also bought some thin foam stickies to keep it from sitting directly on the countertop. I made sure they were very thin and placed them all over the bottom with little space in between. I feel like this is more stable than placing it on a towel and doesn’t allow any chance for it to have stress points where it could break under pressure.


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## ian (Dec 4, 2020)

I'm a little confused about using float glass. I mean, isn't the SiC going to abrade the glass anyway? Does it abrade slowly enough that the initial flatness of the glass is very important? Is glass harder than tile?


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 4, 2020)

ian said:


> I'm a little confused about using float glass. I mean, isn't the SiC going to abrade the glass anyway? Does it abrade slowly enough that the initial flatness of the glass is very important? Is glass harder than tile?


Yeah I don't get it either, and I wonder how long the people suggesting this method have used it for. Years ago when I didn't want to shell out for a diamond flattening plate I tried flattening stones on the back of a granite tile, until I noticed the stones were no longer getting flat. There are no miracle materials, and everything abrades.


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## ian (Dec 4, 2020)

To me, it just seems like an alternative to the 3 stone method, but maybe where the tile/glass abrades more slowly. So, still potentially effective, but you may have to be careful to be flattening the entire glass/tile and not just rubbing in the middle. I've never tried it though.


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 4, 2020)

But it's only a two-stone method unless you rub your stones together as well. I think the only advantage is probably surface area. It'll take a while to become dished enough to notice, but it will dish eventually


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## ian (Dec 4, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> But it's only a two-stone method unless you rub your stones together as well. I think the only advantage is probably surface area. It'll take a while to become dished enough to notice, but it will dish eventually



Yea, true. Probably one should just do this with the cheapest flat surface (per hardness) possible and replace it frequently.


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## inferno (Dec 5, 2020)

glass in an amorph material. its not crystalline as a stone for example. it lasts quite long. but if you want it to last as long as possible you will have to use the whole glass plate. 

just like using coarse stones, use the whole surface.

i think stefan wolf on youtube gets about 6 months out of 1 side of glass. and it seems to be his main method for flattening.

i only use the glass when i have several stones needing to be flattened, and to experiment with surface roughness. for stones above 1k i use diamonds or my 100 grit sic stone. it basically becomes a project as soon as the glass plate comes out so i make sure i have a few things to do on it when its time.

i have recently tried just sprinkling sic powder between my sic stone and the stone needing to be flattened, it works. i did the coarse side of an india type stone, put the texture back in a very short time.


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## kayman67 (Dec 5, 2020)

Yeah. If it's big enough, will last a while. On the other hand, trying to use a small(ish) one made it useless after the third session (3 stones, same day).


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## pennman (Dec 5, 2020)

I flatten my stones on my belt grinder. Gets out the worst dishing on the coarsest stones. Can refine the surface up to 3000 grit if necessary. I actually get the dish out with a 50 or 80 grit belt then put it on 120 to smooth the surface. Then I use my flattening stone to make a slurry. Never had a stone crack or overheat because they have all been soaking or I spray the belt with water and use a slow speed. Here is an economical grinder that will do the trick for most everyone. I have one of these and it works well. Use the belt and not the disc


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 5, 2020)

I spent some time this afternoon reprofiling and thinning my new Sukenari to reduce the belly to a nice shallow curve. Ended up shortening the length by 4mm and reducing the weight by about 2.5g, mostly done with the SP120.

After a while I stopped bothering to refresh it with either a JKI 150 diamond plate or coarse Crystolon, since they didn't seem to make much difference. If I rinsed it off it would feel glazed at first, but then the cutting power would slowly return as the swarth built up. With the right amount of water and swarth it would find its groove - you can tell when the surface slightly bubbles and froths with each stroke. @M1k3 you're right about it not needing resurfacing with stainless cladding, but I wonder why.

The weirdest part was there seemed to be no discernible dishing, except some gouges I made with the spine. Even though it felt almost completely abrasion resistant when thinning the bevels, doing work on the spine made it crumble. What exactly is this demonic beast of a stone?? The worst part is the scratches aren't quite removed by my GS500, so I gave up on the finish until I can order a variety pack of sandpaper.

It was pretty sweet to feel a noticeable difference in cutting a potato after a dozen strokes (side note: a potato is the most useful sharpening tool besides actual stones). I take back what I said earlier about not needing this much power. Still can't imagine using it more than once a year, so I'm going to epoxy it to my GS500 as a base, raising the height to match my other stones until its terrible power is required once more. Recommended


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## M1k3 (Dec 5, 2020)

Stainless cladding is soft enough to catch the abrasive while being abrasion resistant enough to pull the abrasive out.


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## inferno (Dec 6, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> View attachment 105298
> 
> --snip--



 you have just found out how to correctly use your coarse stone.

with all coarse stones there seems to be a sweetspot in how much slurry you should keep on the stone to keep it cutting fast. 
its the same with the 220 pro too. i have found its sweetspot and it pretty much refreshes itself as i go. and usually you dont actually need a truly flat stone either. so the stones become quite low maintenance too. i just try to work more at the high spots when i see dishing. its flat enough


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## Qapla' (Dec 6, 2020)

Looks like you all convinced me; I'll be giving my Shapton Pro 120 another shot when the sandpaper arrives. Until then, I'm going to see if I can replicate that water-bubble and stone self-refreshing effect with the Nubatama Black 180. I might have also been badly misunderstanding coarse-grit stones as well; most of my stones (especially medium-grit stones) I just use without creating slurry ahead of time unless there's no other way, and when slurry/swarf builds, I use it as is. 

The Shapton Pro 120 does in fact dish, but quite slowly. I've resurfaced mine many times by now. Granted, with single-bevel knives there's a much larger surface area on the stone being used at a given time. IME clogging has been the much greater issue.


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## M1k3 (Dec 6, 2020)

Regarding clogging on SP 120. I've made small grooves across the surface. Sort of like when the Japanese knife makers make grooves in the giant water wheel.


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## inferno (Dec 6, 2020)

i have a small boron carbide "norbide" stick. i will try to put grooves in my 120 with that too. 

the norbide sticks are made for truing SiC and alox wheels, only diamond and cbn is harder.


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## M1k3 (Dec 6, 2020)

inferno said:


> i have a small boron carbide "norbide" stick. i will try to put grooves in my 120 with that too.
> 
> the norbide sticks are made for truing SiC and alox wheels, only diamond and cbn is harder.


A junk knife works also 
Use the spine at the tip.


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## daveb (Dec 6, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> A junk knife works also
> Use the spine at the tip.



TFTFTFTFTFTF


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## M1k3 (Dec 6, 2020)

daveb said:


> TFTFTFTFTFTF


My apologies, I misspelled TFTFTFTF


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## ian (Dec 6, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Regarding clogging on SP 120. I've made small grooves across the surface. Sort of like when the Japanese knife makers make grooves in the giant water wheel.



Huh... this helps with clogging? That's real interesting.

Btw, I've rediscovered the SG 120 for crap stainless. Works really well imo. Doesn't clog at all. Doesn't wear fast. Is not screaming loud like Sigma 240. Is flattenable with an Atoma, even.

Kinda wish I'd actually used your SP 120 some when you sent it to me. Maybe I'll buy one at some point if I get an appropriate flattening method. Although I probably don't need one right now.


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## M1k3 (Dec 6, 2020)

ian said:


> Huh... this helps with clogging? That's real interesting.
> 
> Btw, I've rediscovered the SG 120 for crap stainless. Works really well imo. Doesn't clog at all. Doesn't wear fast. Is not screaming loud like Sigma 240. Is flattenable with an Atoma, even.
> 
> Kinda wish I'd actually used your SP 120 some when you sent it to me. Maybe I'll buy one at some point if I get an appropriate flattening method. Although I probably don't need one right now.


It helps release grit. Especially useful for simple carbons or mono stainless.

Sandpaper. Coarse sandpaper used like someone else is paying for it. 3m Cubitron.


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## ian (Dec 6, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> It helps release grit. Especially useful for simple carbons or mono stainless.
> 
> Sandpaper. Coarse sandpaper used like someone else is paying for it. 3m Cubitron.



I thought I tried that and it was completely ineffective. Maybe I was using crap sandpaper, can’t remember


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## M1k3 (Dec 6, 2020)

ian said:


> I thought I tried that and it was completely ineffective. Maybe I was using crap sandpaper, can’t remember


I think you might of been using crap stuff. https://www.amazon.com/3M-26060CP-P-G-No-Slip-Advanced-Sandpaper/dp/B00I2TTXR2/


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## ian (Dec 6, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I think you might of been using crap stuff. Amazon.com



Oooooooooh, no slip grip! 🌶


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## Cloudsmoker (Dec 6, 2020)

pennman said:


> I flatten my stones on my belt grinder. Gets out the worst dishing on the coarsest stones. Can refine the surface up to 3000 grit if necessary. I actually get the dish out with a 50 or 80 grit belt then put it on 120 to smooth the surface. Then I use my flattening stone to make a slurry. Never had a stone crack or overheat because they have all been soaking or I spray the belt with water and use a slow speed. Here is an economical grinder that will do the trick for most everyone. I have one of these and it works well. Use the belt and not the disc View attachment 105272


I use the same on my hard stones. No problem with cracking either, but wearing a dust mask is highly recommended.


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## ian (Dec 6, 2020)

Yea I can see there being clouds of stone smoke with that method.

(Edit: sorry, this was a bad joke.)


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## M1k3 (Dec 6, 2020)




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## Jovidah (Dec 7, 2020)

'Honey! Can we remove the couch from our living room? I need some place to install our new sharpening wheel...'


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## M1k3 (Dec 7, 2020)

Jovidah said:


> 'Honey! Can we remove the couch from our living room? I need some place to install our new sharpening wheel...'


My wife had the same reaction.


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 14, 2020)

I tried removing the scratches left by the Pro 120 with no luck. Seemed logical to start with 150 grit, but good thing I bought some 80 grit for stone flattening, otherwise I'd have gotten nowhere. Even with 80 grit and about 10 minutes of work, there are plenty of scratches remaining, and they still look pretty deep. I'm guessing this stone pulls out big chunks of stainless cladding, and that's the culprit (?)

What do y'all use to remove scratches after this stone?

(also, @M1k3 thanks for the tip about the 3M cubitron paper. I finally flattened an Ikarashi I got from JNS years ago with one sheet and it's still useful enough not to throw away. This stuff is really nice)


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## ian (Dec 14, 2020)

3M cubitron vs Rhynowet. Which should I buy next?


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## M1k3 (Dec 14, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I tried removing the scratches left by the Pro 120 with no luck. Seemed logical to start with 150 grit, but good thing I bought some 80 grit for stone flattening, otherwise I'd have gotten nowhere. Even with 80 grit and about 10 minutes of work, there are plenty of scratches remaining, and they still look pretty deep. I'm guessing this stone pulls out big chunks of stainless cladding, and that's the culprit (?)
> 
> What do y'all use to remove scratches after this stone?
> 
> (also, @M1k3 thanks for the tip about the 3M cubitron paper. I finally flattened an Ikarashi I got from JNS years ago with one sheet and it's still useful enough not to throw away. This stuff is really nice)


I think it can have that tendency to pull out chunks from time to time. It's happened a few times. Maybe the kind of stainless plays a role?


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## M1k3 (Dec 14, 2020)

ian said:


> 3M cubitron vs Rhynowet. Which should I buy next?


Yes.


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## SeattleBen (Dec 14, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Yes.



I love that joke!

On the rhynowet front there’s an eBay vendor that sells sheets in pretty good quantities are what seemed like reasonable rates. I’ll see if I still see their name in my account.


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## daveb (Dec 14, 2020)

During the course of this thread I took a sizable chip out of a Wat deba. Damn salmon. Also had a cheap stainless cleaver I told a friend I would thin and sharpen. My coarsest stones are the 320 pink brick and a SG320. I'm not sure which was the faster stone, the brick felt more coarse but not sure that translated into results. The SG was smoother and in the end was what I worked with the most.

The SG320 was easily enough stone to take the chip out and it did so nicely. Went from there to the G2K and on up. If I'm ever foolish enough to offer to thin a turd again I'll probably pick up a 200 or even 100 series stone. And it will probably be another SG.


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## M1k3 (Dec 14, 2020)

daveb said:


> During the course of this thread I took a sizable chip out of a Wat deba. Damn salmon. Also had a cheap stainless cleaver I told a friend I would thin and sharpen. My coarsest stones are the 320 pink brick and a SG320. I'm not sure which was the faster stone, the brick felt more coarse but not sure that translated into results. The SG was smoother and in the end was what I worked with the most.
> 
> The SG320 was easily enough stone to take the chip out and it did so nicely. Went from there to the G2K and on up. If I'm ever foolish enough to offer to thin a turd again I'll probably pick up a 200 or even 100 series stone. And it will probably be another SG.


From what I heard from @ian, the Glass 120 is a little nicer to use than the Pro 120.


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## daveb (Dec 14, 2020)

I'll not likely ever come off my Pro 1 and 2K. But I do like the glass stones more the more I use them.


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## SeattleBen (Dec 14, 2020)

This is the eBay vendor I bought my rhynowet from.


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## jwthaparc (Dec 14, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> Replying to myself, lol... but if anyone's curious, the Pro 120 beats a coarse Crystolon. The abundance of blue mud was the first indication, confirmed by the marked difference between the two sides of the Crystolon after about 30 sec of lapping. Oh well.
> 
> But damn the Pro 120 is beastly. As a home user I don't need this much power. I'll probably stick with the GS500 for my coarsest stone, mainly because it means the Atoma 400 becomes a nice all-in-one flattening solution for all my stones. Y'all ultra coarse people are crazy, but in a good way.


If your sp120 needs a loving home I could probably take it in and care for it.


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## Kawa (Dec 15, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> From what I heard from @ian, the Glass 120 is a little nicer to use than the Pro 120.



Glass 120 does glaze extremely fast.
Withing minutes its not the coarse stone anymore you needed for the goal, except for the corners which you hit less.

You can keep using it, but not for that chipped/damaged knife you took it our of the closet for, You feel it is way too slick for what you are trying to achieve: fast and aggressive metal removal.

And I really mean minutes! Dont underestimate the time. I cant finish a knife on it, not by far!
Good side is, it doesnt dish and after SiC lapping you are good to go again (for 10 minutes...)


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## ian (Dec 15, 2020)

Kawa said:


> Glass 120 does glaze extremely fast.
> Withing minutes its not the coarse stone anymore you needed for the goal, except for the corners which you hit less.
> 
> You can keep using it, but not for that chipped/damaged knife you took it our of the closet for, You feel it is way too slick for what you are trying to achieve: fast and aggressive metal removal.
> ...



I think it really depends what steel you're using. I remember that when I first got the stone I found it nearly unusable because of the glazing problem while doing heavy thinning on an iron clad knife. 

But I've been using it frequently to set bevels and slightly thin on soft stainless knives recently, and it doesn't glaze at all. (Interestingly, I think I also briefly went back to that iron clad knife a while ago and didn't have as hard of a time with it, but who knows...)


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## Kawa (Dec 15, 2020)

I need that kinda coarse stones mostly for crappy stainless steel, since most people who use J-knives do care more about their knives.
For resetting bevels on soft ss, it doesnt work for me. Well, it works, but after 10 minutes I can take a 220/320 stone aswell. That 120 was bought to give me that extra touch of speed compared to my sp220. For that, its not worth it due to the maintenance the 120 brings with it.
Thinning, I dont know.


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## Jovidah (Dec 15, 2020)

The easier solution when people come to you with El-Cheapo soft stainless junk is not to waste a lot of time on them, but to just push them to get something less ******.


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## Kawa (Dec 15, 2020)

A lot of those people just dont care. No need to push them, because after a week they start putting their expensive knives in a drawer of dishwasher anyway and when that becomes dull, my advice was bad..

But I need those people and their knives to practise. Rotating just my 3 knives doenst get me anywhere soon.

I notice a lot of here are cooks or work with knives in general, so you can be more critical about what knives you accept 

My mother in law dropped 18 cutlery (diner) knives, not steak knives just normal diner knives. I explained her: once, and never again .


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## ian (Dec 15, 2020)

Kawa said:


> I need that kinda coarse stones mostly for crappy stainless steel, since most people who use J-knives do care more about their knives.
> For resetting bevels on soft ss, it doesnt work for me. Well, it works, but after 10 minutes I can take a 220/320 stone aswell. That 120 was bought to give me that extra touch of speed compared to my sp220. For that, its not worth it due to the maintenance the 120 brings with it.
> Thinning, I dont know.



Interesting. That’s not my experience with it. It’s a ton faster on stainless than SG 220, sort of on a level with Sigma 240, but without the ear splitting horrendous noise. And it doesn’t dish fast at all.

I’ll probably buy a SP 120 at some point now that I know there’s a good flattening method. But I’m kinda set for stones for a while.



Jovidah said:


> The easier solution when people come to you with El-Cheapo soft stainless junk is not to waste a lot of time on them, but to just push them to get something less ******.



Not sure that’s easier.


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## Jovidah (Dec 15, 2020)

If people insist on throwing knives into drawers a saya can be a great solution.
Soft stainless is kinda crap for practise though. It's frustrating and unrewarding. They're a lot harder to get scary sharp than proper steel or any kind of carbon IMO.
If you want to practise sharpening I'd get something that's carbon and cheap enough that you don't care too much about grinding half a blade away just for the sake of practising.


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## ian (Dec 15, 2020)

Idk, I’m gonna say stainless is fine for practicing, at least once you reach a certain level. Your deburring game gets a workout for sure. And if you can get soft stainless scary sharp, you can probably get carbon even sharper.


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## M1k3 (Dec 15, 2020)

Kawa said:


> Glass 120 does glaze extremely fast.
> Withing minutes its not the coarse stone anymore you needed for the goal, except for the corners which you hit less.
> 
> You can keep using it, but not for that chipped/damaged knife you took it our of the closet for, You feel it is way too slick for what you are trying to achieve: fast and aggressive metal removal.
> ...


I'm jealous. You got minutes, plural, out of yours.


Kawa said:


> I need that kinda coarse stones mostly for crappy stainless steel, since most people who use J-knives do care more about their knives.
> For resetting bevels on soft ss, it doesnt work for me. Well, it works, but after 10 minutes I can take a 220/320 stone aswell. That 120 was bought to give me that extra touch of speed compared to my sp220. For that, its not worth it due to the maintenance the 120 brings with it.
> Thinning, I dont know.



I've heard the WinCo cheap combo stone saves the headache of talking to people about cheap stainless.


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## ian (Dec 15, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I'm jealous. You got minutes, plural, out of yours.
> 
> 
> I've heard the WinCo cheap combo stone saves the headache of talking to people about cheap stainless.



You know, I tried that one out and I’m not convinced it’s the answer. Too small, and not fast enough for me. It’s certainly nice not to worry about burning through cash in the form of sharpening stones, though.


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## M1k3 (Dec 15, 2020)

So no use buying it if you have a SP 120, Sigma 240 and a Crystolon or 2?


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 16, 2020)

Found my extra-coarse stone solution. Makes me wonder why I've spent any time or energy on stones below 500 grit.

If you use a shapton or another 70mm wide stone as a base, you can get 4 pieces from a US standard 9x11" sheet of paper. A few drops of water and it sticks well to a stone, don't see the need for an expensive sandpaper holder. @inferno was right in another thread that you need to keep the surface of the sandpaper dry for it to work, but it really moves metal. The main downside is the need to wear a respirator (zoom in on the edge of the cleaver), and probably a higher cost over the years, but seems worth it to me.

There's some nice symmetry between the cubitron's grit range topping out at 400, and the atoma 400 working well for all my other stones. Needing only one expensive diamond plate for flattening, and keeping the GS500 as my coarsest stone for regular maintenance thinning, sandpaper becomes a nice cheap and effective solution for my minimal reprofiling needs as a home cook. I'm becoming convinced that the GS500 is the coarsest stone worth keeping, but this extra-coarse stone search has been a fun diversion.


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## inferno (Dec 19, 2020)

i did a 1h session on the sigma 240 yesterday. i had 3 aus8 blades to sharpen and remove small chips from. 

this is quite a ****** stone to be honest. 
*even though i had sealed it, it does not hold water well at all. you constantly need to add more water.
*it wears about 2-3x faster than it should imo. (for the material it removes)
*its not fast. yeah this is not a fast stone. 

comparing it to my fav in this grit range the 220 shapton pro. 
*sigma is much slower. 
*sigma can't handle high pressures to get **** done. because it will simply wear away even faster then. 
*the shapton holds on to its water a lot better. 
*the slurry it forms is simply better than sigmas.
*shapton wears a lot slower, even though its a very fast wearing stone.

now i'm thinking about simply filling the whole stone up with 1comp polyurethane glue. maybe that will make it last longer and hold on to its water?


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## daveb (Dec 19, 2020)

Perhaps seal the top as well and use it in your garden?


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## M1k3 (Dec 19, 2020)

inferno said:


> i did a 1h session on the sigma 240 yesterday. i had 3 aus8 blades to sharpen and remove small chips from.
> 
> this is quite a ****** stone to be honest.
> *even though i had sealed it, it does not hold water well at all. you constantly need to add more water.
> ...


Odd. Opposite of my experience. Except for the water thing.


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## Benuser (Dec 19, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Diamond Hand Pad 15003
> 
> 
> Professional Electroplated Diamond Hand Pad. Ideal for glass edge or shell repair, removes sharp edges, uneven surface or smooth corners.
> ...


Thanks a lot for the suggestion, @kayman67 !
Got the 60 grit and it works great in very short time. My coarse Shaptons have recovered their initial coarseness.


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## Cliff (Dec 19, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Diamond Hand Pad 15003
> 
> 
> Professional Electroplated Diamond Hand Pad. Ideal for glass edge or shell repair, removes sharp edges, uneven surface or smooth corners.
> ...



Does this flatten or just clean up the stone?


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## ModRQC (Dec 19, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Odd. Opposite of my experience. Except for the water thing.



It is odd to me. Don't have experience with SP220 but Sigma is fast and not very dishy. Can support pressure - that works better if sealed though water management gets a bit easier.

I think I know @inferno problem though: when the Sigma dries its mud clumps fast and the stone dishes just as fast. It really likes water a bit too much so its speed is cut down some by extra management - but still fast.


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## ModRQC (Dec 19, 2020)

Cliff said:


> Does this flatten or just clean up the stone?


It's a pad therefore soft therefore won't flatten properly.


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 19, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Odd. Opposite of my experience. Except for the water thing.


I wonder if you're using different types of steel. I recently switched from carbon stainless and had to replace a stone that no longer worked for me. It would be nice if mentioning steel type when talking about stone performance became standard practice, though I often forget to do this myself.


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## M1k3 (Dec 19, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I wonder if you're using different types of steel. I recently switched from carbon stainless and had to replace a stone that no longer worked for me. It would be nice if mentioning steel type when talking about stone performance became standard practice, though I often forget to do this myself.


Whatever is used in the stainless wokshop #2 cleaver, Wusthof Pro and Grand Prix II, A2 variants, VG-10, Shirogami, soft stainless cladding, etc.


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## GorillaGrunt (Dec 19, 2020)

I used the Sigma for sharpening very dull or chipped/damaged knives, mostly factory stainless, and preferred the result if not the process over other stones. I didn’t do much thinning of good knives on it and don’t remember ever having a good result with that compared to other stones; however I’ve since messed mine up with the wrong sealant.


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## inferno (Dec 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> It is odd to me. Don't have experience with SP220 but Sigma is fast and not very dishy. Can support pressure - that works better if sealed though water management gets a bit easier.
> 
> I think I know @inferno problem though: when the Sigma dries its mud clumps fast and the stone dishes just as fast. It really likes water a bit too much so its speed is cut down some by extra management - but still fast.



no. its just slow. and overly dishy.


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## Benuser (Dec 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> It's a pad therefore soft therefore won't flatten properly.


Looks like a pad, is absorbant, but stiff. By the way, my purpose is to restore the stone's texture. For flattening you may use the three-stones trick.


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## Cliff (Dec 19, 2020)

I have a coarse diamond plate for that, but they're expensive. I've used an Atoma 140 as a kind of nagura, but it sounds like this is a better idea.


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## ModRQC (Dec 19, 2020)

Benuser said:


> Looks like a pad, is absorbant, but stiff. By the way, my purpose is to restore the stone's texture. For flattening you may use the three-stones trick.



Stiff yes and I understand what you want, was answering the other query by @Cliff...

and since you know what it takes is it stiff enough to flatten?


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## ModRQC (Dec 19, 2020)

inferno said:


> no. its just slow. and overly dishy.



So it’s impossible that @M1k3 and myself get different results?

I’ll take this with a grain of salt.


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## ModRQC (Dec 19, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I wonder if you're using different types of steel. I recently switched from carbon stainless and had to replace a stone that no longer worked for me. It would be nice if mentioning steel type when talking about stone performance became standard practice, though I often forget to do this myself.



I used the Sigma to thin SK5 and to thin an old Victorinox, as to use extremes. Also on White SS clad, VG-10, and what else... I think Masahiro VC well all simple carbons either mono or SS clad. Endured an hour of full pressure thinning of Victorinox I’m not sure it even lost 3mm of thickness after all that and flattening as needed. It’s not as fast on SS I think but pretty aggressive still.


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## inferno (Dec 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> So it’s impossible that @M1k3 and myself get different results?
> 
> I’ll take this with a grain of salt.



are you saying that you and mike have a stone conspiracy going on? 

i have absolutely no idea how you use your stone and therefor its impossible for me to judge the results you are getting. and i have no idea about what reference frames you have. 

i still got the results i got. you might get other results. and thats ok with me. if you think its a good stone. cool for you. i think its so-so stone at most.

i got these results when i weighed how much steel they removed for an equal amount of work. sigma 340mg, shapton 390mg. also aus8 but clad.


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## ModRQC (Dec 19, 2020)

inferno said:


> are you saying that you and mike have a stone conspiracy going on?
> 
> i have absolutely no idea how you use your stone and therefor its impossible for me to judge the results you are getting. and i have no idea about what reference frames you have.
> 
> ...



Yes I remember that thread and thought you were sourcing your interpretation there. Still the stats says slower but nowhere near slow, and dishy more than a Shapton I don’t doubt it any second but far from really dishy stones like Cerax.

And BTW I also think the Sigma is so so. I’d rather spend more time with a stone I like better even if slower. Sigma gets the cheaps and the daunting thinning work.

But Sigma slow and dishy the way you’re saying it I never would agree.


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## Benuser (Dec 19, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Stiff yes and I understand what you want, was answering the other query by @Cliff...
> 
> and since you know what it takes is it stiff enough to flatten?


Yes, if you don't too much pressure. Have used tonight to cleanup and chamfer my Chosera 2k, after cleaning and restoring my coarse Shaptons. Please be aware though it's only half the size of the stone, or an Atoma. If the stone is seriously dished, I don't know if it will work. Use a light hand. As others here, I'm reluctant to use the Atoma with a 220 or a 120, but they easily get smooth.


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## kayman67 (Dec 19, 2020)

Cliff said:


> Does this flatten or just clean up the stone?


It's not big enough to start with, but any high spots can be removed much faster and you can use something else after, just to level the surface. Definitely can take some pressure of a regular diamond plate. I just did this today with a 220 SiC stone.


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## ModRQC (Dec 19, 2020)

I like the idea very much. Will try and get some of these for sure.


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## inferno (Dec 19, 2020)

i have a 100 grit SiC stone for flattening. after a few stones you need to resurface it on powder. 
its cheap and it just works. make sure you dont get a stone presoaked with oil!

as a sharpening stone i found it pretty useless. lost its bite after maybe 1 min.


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