# Talk me out of a Shun Premier Nakiri as my first "higher-end" knife!



## lukehod (Jul 6, 2015)

I am a ex-professional cook who now cooks daily at home and I'm looking to get a new knife for myself as a birthday present. I currently have a handful of Victorinox Fibrox knives (Chef's knife, utility knife, serrated, and paring) that are my daily workhorses, but I'm looking for a nicer blade thats a bit more specialized. 

I do A LOT of vegetable prep at home so I've been looking at a nakiri as it looks like it suits my style the best. I work in a small town in Alabama so I don't really have a place to go and try knives out, but I have amazon prime and the Shun Premier Nakiri looks like the perfect knife for me: I love the shape and size of the knife, and the finish of the knife really appeals to me.

I see that Shun tend to be described here as overpriced for the quality of knife. What nakiri would you guys recommend then to someone who is new to japanese knives? I hone my knives regularly, but I do not have stones to sharpen or a sharpening service available nearby so keep that in mind for a blade that has more maintenance.

I am right-handed and have only western handles. I use a pinch grip if that helps at all either. I like the length of the Shun Premier Nakiri (5.5 inch), as I dislike using huge knives in the home environment. I use my 8" chef's knife for most prep work, but I want something that handles vegetables better. My knife now tends to stick too much, even with a sharp edge and it is a bit annoying and slows me down. 

My price range is <$175 so please give me some recommendations for why I shouldn't just go ahead and pull the trigger on the Shun Premier now. Thanks guys and gals!


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 6, 2015)

Welcome Luke, I am a retired chef too. Think you can do better than a Shun. I would think a quality 8" or 210mm chef knife much more versatile than a Nikiri. Blades I reach for the most these days are Sugimoto CM4030 cleaver. Light comfortable great for chopping up all kinds of things and a 217mm chef knife.


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## daveb (Jul 6, 2015)

The Shun Nakiri does not suck. I had the opportunity to use one during a Shun product demo and was expecting it to be clunky, fat, unbalanced. Was pleasantly surprised that I liked it. (But only a little)

That said for the same coin you can no doubt do better. Japanese Knife Imports has a few offerings within your price range. The Uraku is solid as is the Zakuri. If you reach a little deeper the Kocki has a great reputation. 

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives-14/kitchen-knives-by-type/nakiri.html 

There is a new knife questionnaire at the top of the forum that when filled out can produce recommendations (usually) tailored for your requirements.

I used to have a deer lease between Brewton and Andulusia. Little towns in Alabama can be great.

Edit: And agree with Keith that a 210 Gyuto (Chef Knife) would be a lot more versatile in the kitchen if that's something you're open to.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 6, 2015)

The Shun Premier series isn't my favorite, but, as Dave said, it isn't a bad knife. You could spend less and get a Gesshin Uraku with better steel that will hold an edge longer, but it wouldn't look as nice as the Shun.

As long as you are ordering it from Amazon, find a little more in your budget and get a Norton combination waterstone in 1000/4000 grit. You will need it to maintain your new Shun, as you don't want to let a honing rod anywhere near it. 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00067ZSM2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Welcome to KKF, by the way.

Rick


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## cheflarge (Jul 6, 2015)

What Dave said. The Uraku & Zakuri are both good choices with the Zakuri getting the nod from me.


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## chefcomesback (Jul 6, 2015)

The op has a 8" chefs knife to begin with , he is asking for a nakiri . 
Shuns are not as bad as people make them
sound to be , however they are overpriced IMO and you can do lot better with same money . If you are in US give Jon from JKI a call , he will recommend the best blade you need for the moment


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## MrOli (Jul 6, 2015)

Considering a vendor from this site has a beast of a Yoshikane Hammered Nakiri priced in the same ballpark as the Shun for twice the knife....I would not buy it if I were you. 

There are plenty of superb alternatives in the same budget.


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## chefcomesback (Jul 6, 2015)

MrOli said:


> Considering a vendor from this site has a beast of a Yoshikane Hammered Nakiri priced in the same ballpark as the Shun for twice the knife....I would not buy it if I were you.
> 
> There are plenty of superb alternatives in the same budget.



You are spot on for the yoshikane from epic edge , great knives


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## Castalia (Jul 6, 2015)

Or this if you want a (small) Western handle:

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=91017

The powdered metal stainless is excellent.

Plenty of alternatives out there.


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## wrobelan (Jul 6, 2015)

The Shun premier line is pretty nice. I have the Honesuki with Vg-Max steel and really enjoy using it. That being said, $160 for a nakiri with Vg-10 is a bit much. I paid $88 for mine and think $160 is a bit steep. 

If you really like the Shun and don't mind branching out a little from your initial pick, you should consider the 8" blue kiritsuke. I bought one for my dad a month ago for $142. I own the knife, and it's a dream to use daily. However, if you are okay with the little extra work maintaining the VG-10 from Shun, then by all means go with your first pick. 

Best of luck.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 6, 2015)

Withing your price range you could get Watanabe's 180mm nakiri http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/nakkiri.htm .
If you are ok spending a bit more, you can ask him to change the plastic ferrule for a horn one.


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## spoiledbroth (Jul 7, 2015)

I want to tell you to take that money and use it to replace your fibrox chefs knife and make your whole day easier.


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## Butters (Jul 7, 2015)

Fibrox rocks. They were the first real knives I bought, and some still have a place in my kitchen. They're indestructible and can take a decent edge. Sure, they're not hand forged but for most kitchens, or as an entry point to 'proper' sharp knives people could do a lot worse.

I use a fibrox bread knife all the time and have an 8' Chefs for my wife. In her world knives are multi tools that cut everything, including bones, boxes and sometimes small branches. To be fair after all that I can take the fibrox to the stones and bring it back to shaving in 10 minutes. They're solid.


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## MDT89 (Jul 7, 2015)

I would recommend this knife if you can handle carbon steel: Anryu Hammered Blue #2 Nakiri. It has a core steel of reactive Blue/Aogami #2 steel with a non-reactive stainless cladding on top. Very well made knife, excellent grind, very nice handle and good heat treatment means it will take a scary sharp edge. I have used this knife for a while, as well as the range's Santoku and 240 mm gyuto and are all excellent performing knives. You don't have to be scared by the carbon steel, just whipe it dry after using and store it dry. The price is fairly within your range as well!


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## lukehod (Jul 7, 2015)

keithsaltydog said:


> Welcome Luke, I am a retired chef too. Think you can do better than a Shun. I would think a quality 8" or 210mm chef knife much more versatile than a Nikiri. Blades I reach for the most these days are Sugimoto CM4030 cleaver. Light comfortable great for chopping up all kinds of things and a 217mm chef knife.



Don't know if I'm "retired", just ended up changing career fields but still have a big love for working in my kitchen! I have a feeling you are correct about getting a Shun, I am pretty set on getting a nakiri though. I really love my victorinox fibrox (takes a good edge and I don't have to worry too much about beating them up), so I'd rather expand my collection right now instead of replace if possible. I really like how flat the blade on a nakiri is. I think it would compliment my knife technique pretty well especially with julienne cuts and cutting the pithe out of peppers (I do both almost daily).



daveb said:


> ... for the same coin you can no doubt do better. Japanese Knife Imports has a few offerings within your price range. The Uraku is solid as is the Zakuri. If you reach a little deeper the Kocki has a great reputation.
> 
> There is a new knife questionnaire at the top of the forum that when filled out can produce recommendations (usually) tailored for your requirements.
> 
> ...



I'll look at those knives on JKI, but the site seems to be down at the moment (may just be on my end!). This may be a newbie question, but what exactly do I do with the questionnaire when I fill it out? Paste it in this thread? 

I've been through Brewton on work and it is a great little town! 



Pensacola Tiger said:


> The Shun Premier series isn't my favorite, but, as Dave said, it isn't a bad knife. You could spend less and get a Gesshin Uraku with better steel that will hold an edge longer, but it wouldn't look as nice as the Shun.
> 
> As long as you are ordering it from Amazon, find a little more in your budget and get a Norton combination waterstone in 1000/4000 grit. You will need it to maintain your new Shun, as you don't want to let a honing rod anywhere near it.
> 
> ...



Hmm that may definitely be worth it. Would the combination waterstone be sufficient for maintenance on these knives? And thanks for the welcome, I am already learning a ton here!


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## lukehod (Jul 7, 2015)

MrOli said:


> Considering a vendor from this site has a beast of a Yoshikane Hammered Nakiri priced in the same ballpark as the Shun for twice the knife....I would not buy it if I were you.
> 
> There are plenty of superb alternatives in the same budget.



Is that this one: http://epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=85670 ?

It looks very nice, what exactly makes it twice the knife? I'm still a bit new to the scene here so sorry if that is a very vague question!



wrobelan said:


> The Shun premier line is pretty nice. I have the Honesuki with Vg-Max steel and really enjoy using it. That being said, $160 for a nakiri with Vg-10 is a bit much. I paid $88 for mine and think $160 is a bit steep.
> 
> If you really like the Shun and don't mind branching out a little from your initial pick, you should consider the 8" blue kiritsuke. I bought one for my dad a month ago for $142. I own the knife, and it's a dream to use daily. However, if you are okay with the little extra work maintaining the VG-10 from Shun, then by all means go with your first pick.
> 
> Best of luck.



I have been looking at a honesuki as my next knife after this, as I have tried a friends before to break down a couple chickens and really liked the stiffness and geometry of it compared to the boning knives I've used at where I worked. Where are you buying your Shuns from out of curiosity?



Marcelo Amaral said:


> Withing your price range you could get Watanabe's 180mm nakiri http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/nakkiri.htm .
> If you are ok spending a bit more, you can ask him to change the plastic ferrule for a horn one.





spoiledbroth said:


> I want to tell you to take that money and use it to replace your fibrox chefs knife and make your whole day easier.



My fibrox really cause me no issues at all except when making my initial cuts to dice onions and a few other veggies, hence why I want this nakiri. With regular honing and occasional sharpening they have all stayed _near_-razor sharp and I love them! Plus no need to seat if you do hit a bone or something since they are so affordable to replace in a worse-case scenario.



Butters said:


> Fibrox rocks. They were the first real knives I bought, and some still have a place in my kitchen. They're indestructible and can take a decent edge. Sure, they're not hand forged but for most kitchens, or as an entry point to 'proper' sharp knives people could do a lot worse.
> 
> I use a fibrox bread knife all the time and have an 8' Chefs for my wife. In her world knives are multi tools that cut everything, including bones, boxes and sometimes small branches. To be fair after all that I can take the fibrox to the stones and bring it back to shaving in 10 minutes. They're solid.



+1 They are certainly not high end, but I don't think they try to be. One day I'll probably upgrade mine, but I'd rather spend my limited budget on something a little more specialized.



MDT89 said:


> I would recommend this knife if you can handle carbon steel: Anryu Hammered Blue #2 Nakiri. It has a core steel of reactive Blue/Aogami #2 steel with a non-reactive stainless cladding on top. Very well made knife, excellent grind, very nice handle and good heat treatment means it will take a scary sharp edge. I have used this knife for a while, as well as the range's Santoku and 240 mm gyuto and are all excellent performing knives. You don't have to be scared by the carbon steel, just whipe it dry after using and store it dry. The price is fairly within your range as well!



This looks like a fantastic option as well. How would it compare to the Yoshikane Hammered Nakiri mentioned above?


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## MadDurrr (Jul 7, 2015)

The Anryu Blue #2 gyuto seems to get stellar user feedback from what I've read online. I would expect the nakiri to perform well too. I'm laying off the knife buying at the moment as I went a bit crazy this last month, but I do plan on trying an Anryu someday.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 7, 2015)

lukehod said:


> Would the combination waterstone be sufficient for maintenance on these knives?



Yes, they would. At some point you may want to add a coarse stone for repairs, but a 1000/4000 combination (or two single grit stones in that range) are perfectly suitable for maintaining any knives you have or may get. I recommended the Norton combination stone considering cost and that it is also available from Amazon Prime. There are many other suitable stones available, but they either cost more, or involve high shipping costs unless you spend a particular amount to get free shipping. If you want to spend more, say so and you'll get a lot of recommendations.


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## boomchakabowwow (Jul 7, 2015)

i'm loving the Nakiri..i am using a shallow cleaver from Taiwan almost daily and i am seriously married to the shape.

good luck with the search.

and i love Fibrox. just used one this weekend at july 4th bbq. super sharp, and the handle is very ergonomic and grippy. about as sexy as plain white sliced bread, but it is a very effective chef's knife.


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## MrOli (Jul 7, 2015)

The Yoshikane will outpeform the Shun in cutting power and food release, it is worth noting the steel is semi stainless clad with stainless. I am biased of course but Yoshilanes are fine knives present in the collections of many here.


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## daveb (Jul 7, 2015)

MadDurrr said:


> The Anryu Blue #2 gyuto seems to get stellar user feedback from what I've read online. I would expect the nakiri to perform well too. I'm laying off the knife buying at the moment as I went a bit crazy this last month, but I do plan on trying an Anryu someday.



Anything sold on the TOGO site is going to have stellar user feedback - from the folks on the TOGO site. It may well be a fine knife but looking for objective feedback there is like asking the waitress "How's the pie?" And TOGO is not unique in that regard, just the only vendor site that purports to be a forum.


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## daveb (Jul 7, 2015)

And nothing suggested thus far, that's within your stated budget, will touch the Uraku. If you're willing to reach a little deeper the Watanabe is among my favorite Nakiri. This is what mine looks like.


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## MDT89 (Jul 8, 2015)

I know CKTG is not a very well appreciated site here, though the plethora of references to JKI and JCK on this site means that this forum actually pretty much does the same. That being said, I am from the Netherlands and purchase most of my knives from japansemessen.nl, a Dutch JK importer that has a very nice collection of JKs and attributes as well. I've used the CKTG forum and this forum to help me in my purchase decision and lately decided it was my time to put my 2 cents in. 

On the subject then, I have not used the Joshikane but I actually own a Anryu Nakiri and recommend it from personal experience. The knife has a great grind, stiff and high performance, and although not being a true laser it actually is really thin behind the edge. It is the only Nakiri that I personally own, but you might also want to look at Fujiwara Nashiji Nakiri (Shirogami #1 with stainless clad) and one of the stainless Masakage Nakiris (Vg-10/damascus, really nice grind) if you like knives with a little bit more character. However, they are on the top end of your price range.


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## knyfeknerd (Jul 8, 2015)

MDT89 said:


> I know CKTG is not a very well appreciated site here, though the plethora of references to JKI and JCK on this site means that this forum actually pretty much does the same.
> .



Well, seeing as how JCK is NOT a vendor here, your statement does not hold true! WE DO NOT SHILL HERE. 
We recommend vendors because of our personal experiences with them, not because we are paid to do so. 
And FYI, us mods do not get paid to do what we do. This is a community, not a ******* marketplace. Thank you.


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## chinacats (Jul 8, 2015)

Ruso said:


> To be honest yes you do. Not as much as TOGO, I mean TOGO forum exists only for one reason, so its hard to beat.



Shill=an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.

Not here...though there are a bunch of enthusiastic customers...me included...shill is definitely an appropriate term for togo...funny that they call it a forum...more a place of worship (false idols)


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## MDT89 (Jul 8, 2015)

I think I am misinterpreted here, I never meant that this site or any of the mods are vending knives here or anything. However, when a lot of people talk about knives that can be bought at the same site (for instance JKI), it tends to create a loop. More people talk about them, recommend them and people buy them. This reinforces the position of some vendors on the forum, but there's nothing wrong with that. On the CKTG forum, I don't believe they intend to portray themselves as anything else than a tool to review their knives and recommend them to people who want any of the TOGO knives. Also, nothing wrong with that IMO.
Considering the heated reactions my last post received, I believe this discussion has occured more than once on this forum and I will leave it be. Again, no harm or foul intended towards the forum or any of the mods. As for the knife, I am speaking from my own experience with the Anryu Nakiri, and wanted to express my thoughs and think it would be a knife to consider within the price range.


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## drawman623 (Jul 8, 2015)

daveb said:


> And nothing suggested thus far, that's within your stated budget, will touch the Uraku. If you're willing to reach a little deeper the Watanabe is among my favorite Nakiri. This is what mine looks like.


Like

Glad someone said it. I started with a Shun Premier Nakiri. I enjoyed slicing with it so much that I started down the road to Jknife addiction.

That said, however, nothing I own cuts better than my Watanabe nakiri. If I had to do it over again, and on a tight budget, I would shop for a used Watanabe before compromising.

I've had knives that I thought were impressively sharp, then bought something radically sharper that redefined my view of such... after trying every superlative I've had the chance to own or use, the Watanabe nakiri ranks as my favorite.

As far as criticism of Shun, I have a boning knife that is very chippy. The VG10 edge of my Nakiri and chef knife, in my hands, does not hold up as well as some of my carbon core knives. Sharpening the Shun is not as easy for me either. That is more personal preference though.


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## lukehod (Jul 8, 2015)

So I feel like I have narrowed my choices down to the Yoshikane Hammered Nakiri, the Watanabe Nakiri, or the Anryu Blue #2. I am leaning most towards the Yoshikane just because I am a sucker for a hammered finish, it has the "D" shaped handle, and it is currently in stock (unlike the Anryu Blue #2).

Is there any drastic difference in difficulty of maintenance between the three of these knives? I don't have any stones yet, but I may have to get some soon it seems.

What is the ordering process like for the Watanabe? How much would shipping be to the US and how long does it take to get here? Is it really worth bumping my budget up to get the Watanabe over the Yoshikane?


Thanks so much for all the help everyone! I have a lot to learn about knives still, but I think I'm in the right place to do it.:biggrin:


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## daveb (Jul 8, 2015)

The Yoshi is stainless clad SKD, so very little concern about reactivity. Yoshi does a great job with SKD and it sharpens like I know how. The Watanabe Pro is also stainless clad, I think the core is white steel. I picked up mine used but I understand they are easily ordered off Watanabe's website, there is nominal shipping cost and it's about a three week delay. 

If you like the hammered finish it's the Yoshi or JKI Gobei(sp?). I don't care for that finish and so don't have one.

Can't offer anything re the Anryu.


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## brianh (Jul 8, 2015)

Another +1 on the Watanabe. Mine is with Dave M. right now for handle upgrade. 

Buying from Watanabe was easy and painless. I don't recall the details of shipping cost and time to get here, which means it was not memorable (in a good way).


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## brianh (Jul 8, 2015)

Ruso said:


> I believe the supporting vendors are paying money to have their forum here, granted it does not go to you or any other moderators I would assume.



[video]https://www.youtube.com/embed/xxSI1QsIo8g[/video]

:lol2:


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 8, 2015)

daveb said:


> The Watanabe Pro is also stainless clad, I think the core is white steel.



Dave, the core steel is aogami (blue paper).


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## aaamax (Jul 8, 2015)

Wow! Something aint right.
I have noticed that Chef knives to go is not spoken of here, I just thought it had to do with "no vendor=no talk" like many forums do. Seems reasonable as in no-free-advertising. But now there seems to be a whoooole other issue going on unknowns to me and obviously many others here in our community.
I will gladly say that I've had nothing but good experiences here on the forum and CKTG. 
If there is some kind of blood feud going on, I think it only fair to all of us here on the forum, that all the cards get laid out on the table. 
In other words, "What the hell is this all about?" 
This serious.


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## daveb (Jul 8, 2015)

Thanks Rick. Tonight is sushi nite so it's about to meet a case of mushrooms and a gillion scallions. I'll let it kiss the stones when I'm done. Blue good.


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## lukehod (Jul 8, 2015)

daveb said:


> ...The Watanabe Pro is also stainless clad, I think the core is white steel...





Pensacola Tiger said:


> Dave, the core steel is aogami (blue paper).



So would that mean I have to worry about reactivity or no? What about chipping?

With all the Watanabe recommendations I think it may be my best option. Is it possible to swap the plastic part of the handle out for bone or will Watanabe not do that?


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## Ruso (Jul 8, 2015)

From watanabe website the ferrule on the Pro series knives is made form Buffalo horn, not plastic. So there is no need to swap it, unless of course you do not like it.

Carbon blade with stainless clad means that's the part of the core steel that is exposed can rust or react with food. Usually it's the edge itself and about half cm upwards. The rest of the blade will not rust. But sine the patina will form on the core steel rather quickly it will create a cool contrast and practically remove the reactivity. In another words carbon core with stainless clad is very nice middle ground.

However, you should always take care of the knife if it's stainless or carbon. Wipe it clean after each use and not let it seat in the sink or other dump places.
GL.


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## daveb (Jul 8, 2015)

I hope I didn't start this little spat by suggesting the vendor of Knife X may not provide the most objective review of Knife X. On JKI's site the reviews of JKI products are for the most part postive. On JNS's site it's the same. On TOGO site it's also the same. And that is all to be expected. Most of the users of these sites are happy with the sites or they couldn't stay competitive. 

The point I was trying to make with my "How's the pie?" analogy is that only with TOGO does the website purport to be a forum offering objective purchasing advice. Read them all, take what is useful but don't expect any of vendor sites to reflect anything other than opinions of mostly satisfied customers. 

Aaamx wrote:



aaamax said:


> Wow! Something aint right.
> I have noticed that Chef knives to go is not spoken of here, I just thought it had to do with "no vendor=no talk" like many forums do. Seems reasonable as in no-free-advertising. But now there seems to be a whoooole other issue going on unknowns to me and obviously many others here in our community.
> I will gladly say that I've had nothing but good experiences here on the forum and CKTG.
> If there is some kind of blood feud going on, I think it only fair to all of us here on the forum, that all the cards get laid out on the table.
> ...



Aaamax, For many that have been around awhile the animosity is real and relevent. I'm not sure of how relevent and will not point you in that direction nor "put cards on the table" and stir this particular pot. If you must drag it up, google. But pls don't.

Lot of Type A personalities here, hell I've got one hanging in the closet somewhere. How bout just helping the OP find the knife he's looking for?


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## daveb (Jul 8, 2015)

Good points Ruso. I knew you had it in you:cool2:


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## chinacats (Jul 8, 2015)

I'm not much of a nakiri guy, but the best two cutters I've tried are Watanabe and Carter and the Carter is probably out of your price range. I'd get the Watanabe and if you like it (you will), get it rehandled.

Edit to say, just read Ruso's comment about the handle, and looks like you are all set. I do remember reading that he was sending some knives with plastic that used to get horn, not sure which those are...I last bought a gyuto about a year ago and it was finished in horn.

One more edit to say that Shinichi (Watanabe) speaks very English so communication is not a problem.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 8, 2015)

lukehod said:


> So would that mean I have to worry about reactivity or no? What about chipping?



As Ruso said, only the few millimeters of exposed core will react. Aogami is not a particularly reactive steel in comparison to SK-4, for example, and in my experience will not be a problem with regard to transfer of taste to food. 

There is a lot of comment about chipping thrown around in this forum (and others), but the fact is that chipping is caused by either poor technique, sharpening to too acute an angle, or both. The aogami in Watanabe's knives is no more prone to chipping than any other steel.



> With all the Watanabe recommendations I think it may be my best option. Is it possible to swap the plastic part of the handle out for bone or will Watanabe not do that?



According to Watanabe's website, the 180 mm nakiri has a plastic ferrule while the 165 mm has a horn ferrule. Since you've indicated that you are looking for the shorter one, there should be no need to ask about upgrading. If you change your mind and want the 180, then the whole handle will need to be upgraded, not just the ferrule. At least that has been my experience.

Of course, you may just want to have a custom handle made for it, like the one I had:





Rick


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## lukehod (Jul 8, 2015)

Ruso said:


> From watanabe website the ferrule on the Pro series knives is made form Buffalo horn, not plastic. So there is no need to swap it, unless of course you do not like it.
> 
> Carbon blade with stainless clad means that's the part of the core steel that is exposed can rust or react with food. Usually it's the edge itself and about half cm upwards. The rest of the blade will not rust. But sine the patina will form on the core steel rather quickly it will create a cool contrast and practically remove the reactivity. In another words carbon core with stainless clad is very nice middle ground.
> 
> ...



Oh I take care of all my kitchen utensils like I still work in a kitchen, I doubt that habit will ever leave haha so no need to worry about that. On the Watanabe listing it says


> Handle: D-shaped burnt chestnut wood with plastic hilt


 so I think it isn't bone anymore?

There is also a 165mm nakiri listed that does have a bone handle so maybe that would be better for me. Not sure if I need 180mm of blade anyways. Thoughts?

EDIT: I wrote this before I saw Pensacola Tiger's post. I think the 165mm is my best bet then!


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## riba (Jul 8, 2015)

I really enjoy my 18cm, glad I went with that one.
I inquired about the handle and decided to stick with plastic. Works well for me.

This was the reply to the inquiry:
--------
Thanks for your mail. I'm Shinichi from Watanabe blade.
Yes, 165mm has horn hilt.
180mm are plastic hilt.
Blades are same material and finish. Both thickness are almost same.

JPY7,000 extra for chestnut with horn of Nakkiri 180mm.
-------


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## wrobelan (Jul 8, 2015)

I usually get the shuns at WS. I look for deals, and I've gotten friendly with the girls who work there and use my 20% off coupon.


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## wrobelan (Jul 8, 2015)

Also, my dad has the Shun VG-10 Damascus style on a couple of his knives, and it is a lot more chippy than their other lines.

There is a multitude of people here that bought a Shun at one time or another and have moved on. You can always post in BST to inquire if someone has one or two sitting in a drawer or roll not getting used. 

Good luck.


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## lukehod (Jul 8, 2015)

wrobelan said:


> Also, my dad has the Shun VG-10 Damascus style on a couple of his knives, and it is a lot more chippy than their other lines.
> 
> There is a multitude of people here that bought a Shun at one time or another and have moved on. You can always post in BST to inquire if someone has one or two sitting in a drawer or roll not getting used.
> 
> Good luck.



The chippiness is kind of scaring me to be honest. It doesn't seem like I can post a WTB thread in the BST, is it because I am new? What are the requirements for posting in there? I can't find it in the FAQs anywhere...


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## HomeCook (Jul 8, 2015)

lukehod said:


> So would that mean I have to worry about reactivity or no? What about chipping?
> 
> With all the Watanabe recommendations I think it may be my best option. Is it possible to swap the plastic part of the handle out for bone or will Watanabe not do that?


I wouldn't pay full price for Shun. The few Shuns I have were acquired at half price at most. If you're set on a Shun Premier nakiri I'd scan eBay and Google regularly to see if any pop up for sale.

Carter nakiris are great but the problem isn't just the price, it's that he makes very few of them and when they come up they sell out almost immediately. You'd have to get on the mailing list and wait patiently, checking your email diligently, for months and months, to see if a stainless or high grade nakiri is available.

I have a Watanabe pro 180mm and it's a lotta knife. In contrast the Shun Premier at 5 1/2 inches is ~139mm. You'd want a smaller Watanabe. Fortunately he also makes pro nakiris in 120mm, 150mm, and 165mm. The ordering process is fairly simple. Go to http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/ and click around and research the various offerings. Then email Shinichi on the site's email function with any questions (size, weight, materials used, options). When you decide ask him to send you a PayPal invoice. Painless. For example, I asked to switch the plastic ferrule to buffalo horn for an extra 7000 yen. It got to NYC within 6 days. The exchange rate from yen to dollars right now is good.

You might want to look into Masakage nakiris, I've been reading good things. If edge retention is your priority then Gihei makes a HAP40 steel nakiri that's available at http://www.japanesechef.com.au/gihei.html (that's Aussie dollars and they ship to the US). Gihei Hap40 sold out on another websitethatshallnotbenamed within hours after being out-of-stock since last year. Or, you could try a Tojiro DP nakiri. Cheap as hell ($50 on Amazon), decent steel (VG10 same as the Shun), stainless, western handle. You can abuse it all you want, learn to sharpen on a whetstone with it (look into a 1000/6000 large dual King on epicedge.com), and just see if you even like the nakiri shape before moving on to an upgrade. In fact, I'd look into Tojiro DP as a general upgrade to all your Victorinix knives.


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## daveb (Jul 8, 2015)

The guidelines for using BST are contained within that forum at: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23206-Guidelines-for-B-S-T

The typical size question is 165 or 180. I have a 165 Carter that's very well made, quite nimble and fun to use. But it gets pretty small fast if I'm using it for more that a couple people. I reach for the 180 more often because of the size advantage. If I'm doing half dozen scallions the 165 is fine. If I'm doing a bunch or bunches then it's the 180 turn.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 8, 2015)

If you are not in a hurry and can wait for it to come back in stock, another option is Kato's nakiris:

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/yoshiaki-fujiwara-nakiri-165mm/
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/yoshiaki-fujiwara-180mm-kurouchi-nakiri/

I got mine used at BST. It wasn't sharp when i got it, but after putting into the stones, it became my main nakiri for tomatoes. F&F not as good as Watanabe's and heel not as high (like Watanabe's higher heel better), but it cuts very well. It is also sold very quickly when it becomes available at JNS.


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## wrobelan (Jul 8, 2015)

lukehod said:


> The chippiness is kind of scaring me to be honest. It doesn't seem like I can post a WTB thread in the BST, is it because I am new? What are the requirements for posting in there? I can't find it in the FAQs anywhere...




I couldn't recommend the VG-10 blades that are Damascus. My solid VG-10 from Shun are good, not at all chippy. I am not sure if the Premier line in Vg-10 is solid or layered. They have the solid blade in the Edo line, and I actually prefer that handle to the Premier. However, I think the listings that I have seen are way too high.


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## malexthekid (Jul 8, 2015)

wrobelan said:


> I couldn't recommend the VG-10 blades that are Damascus. My solid VG-10 from Shun are good, not at all chippy. I am not sure if the Premier line in Vg-10 is solid or layered. They have the solid blade in the Edo line, and I actually prefer that handle to the Premier. However, I think the listings that I have seen are way too high.



I think he was referring to the watanabe in regards to chipping. 

On chipping I would like to second Rick's comments. I have yet to chip one of my higher end knives as i take care of them. One is VG and it performs great. I don't baby it to much. You just have to be careful of how thin the edge is and how you use it.

I will say i have (our at least someone has) chipped my scanpan chefs knife, but this is likely due to me putting too acute of an angle on the knife as well as just using it as a beater.


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## lancep (Jul 8, 2015)

I'm surprised no one has recommended a Shigefusa nakiri (sold by Maksim at JNS, but also various and sundry other places). Shigefusa is considered one of the finest makers of knives, period. His kurouchi knives are in your price range. Though not in stock at JNS right now, you can get on his e-mail list for when they come in. I have one of his korouchi petties (as well as a gyuto and a yanagiba), and I love it.


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## lukehod (Jul 9, 2015)

malexthekid said:


> I think he was referring to the watanabe in regards to chipping.



No I just worded it really weird sorry. I had heard a few bad things about chipping with the shun.

I think I am set on getting the Watanabe nakiri at this point. I just need to figure out what size is right for me. I am leaning towards the 160mm tbh since 180mm seems like more than I really need.

Maybe someone will post a listing for a used one in the BST so I don't have to go too far ahead of my budget 

You guys rock by the way. There's a ton of knowledge in this forum and I'm looking forward to hanging around here!


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## wrobelan (Jul 9, 2015)

You should keep hanging around and checking the topics. There is a solid core group here that dispenses a great deal of knowledge by sharing its experience. I have certainly learned a lot on this forum. 

Best of luck with your hunting.


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## riba (Jul 9, 2015)

When going from my Tanaka 16.5cm nakiri (VG10, great value for money!) to the Watanabe 18cm, it didn't feel like that much longer. When going back to the Tanaka, the Tanaka did feel rather short though. Additionally, the extra weight aids me with cutting (which surprised me, I was coming from the "lighter-is-better" point of view).
The Watanabe is really thin behind the edge and the steel is rather hard, so I use a microbevel on one side (to compensate for my poor technique  ).
The choil and spine could use some easing (which is easy to do, but I haven't gotten around to it yet).
I decided to not upgrade the handle. I figured that if I wouldn't like the handle, I'd rather put a custom handle on it than picking the horn option. But the plastic ferrule doesn't bother me (I was worried about that before buying the knife).

2 pics of my knife:


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## MDT89 (Jul 9, 2015)

Quote from forum: 
"**Authorized Vendor List**
Please support our vendors - their support keeps KKF running
Moderators:knyfeknerd"

So... it is a marketplace? ....


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## daveb (Jul 9, 2015)

Sorry you feel that way MD. 

Any unbiased review of this forum will find recommendations for supporting vendors and those that are "off the reservation" are about equal. That some of our supporting vendors share their knowledge through participation here is a huge positive. They do a great job of providing advice and experience without pushing their wares. 

I have yet to see any contribution from one of the "off the reservation" vendors that are frequently suggested, i.e. JCK, AFrames, RakMart, Blueway and others. Yet their products are both recommended and linked to.

In short, your argument falls flat.

Best,

Dave


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## augerpro (Jul 9, 2015)

Watanabe is an excellent choice. I agree with the above too: when it comes to nakiris I really the heavier ones. I never thought I would until I got a heavier and longer Asai - I like thin and lighter knives - but the right weight does half the work for you. So don't chicken out on getting the 180mm. One concern though: at 64 HRC this *may* be tougher to sharpen to a novice.

For that reason I'd also suggest the itinomonn 180mm. I owned both the Watanabe and Itinomonn for a short time and it was very hard to tell the difference. Both have excellent grinds, though the more polished finish of the Itinomonn *occasionally* allowed it to slide through food better. Otherwise the grind was so similar they felt the same. Watanabe felt just the slightest bit heavier, but I liked the weight of both very much. The only downside to the Itinomonn was that the edge did not extend that far up the curved tip. If you have stones or sent it to Dave M this is no big deal, but something to consider. For the money I think the Itinomonn is the best value.


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## daveb (Jul 9, 2015)

MD. I've explained to you why I've done what I've done. I will not argue about admin of the forum - about a knife sure.

I'm done with this segue. So are you. Get over it.

(Sorry jim - doing this from fon)


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## knyfeknerd (Jul 9, 2015)

Does anyone know if the Premier Shun in question is ground flat on the other side? I had a Shun Nakiri many years ago that was kind of like an usuba(beveled only on one side, but a 50/50 edge) that was actually a fun knife.
I did own a Premier Shun bread knife a while back. The "bling" factor originally drew me to it, but in the end is why I let it go. Too damn shiny. The handles are comfortable, but after handling other knives they feel somewhat "unnatural". 
For a first nakiri, the Tojiro shirogami is a good intro(or at least it used to be) to carbon steel and care. They're super-cheap and you can learn all about reactivity!


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 9, 2015)

knyfeknerd said:


> Does anyone know if the Premier Shun in question is ground flat on the other side? I had a Shun Nakiri many years ago that was kind of like an usuba(beveled only on one side, but a 50/50 edge) that was actually a fun knife.
> I did own a Premier Shun bread knife a while back. The "bling" factor originally drew me to it, but in the end is why I let it go. Too damn shiny. The handles are comfortable, but after handling other knives they feel somewhat "unnatural".
> For a first nakiri, the Tojiro shirogami is a good intro(or at least it used to be) to carbon steel and care. They're super-cheap and you can learn all about reactivity!



The Premier line is ground 50/50. It's the Pro (now the Pro II) line that is ground flat on one side. 

I appreciate your subtle sense of humor when you recommend a Tojiro shirogami because "you can learn all about reactivity" with it . I've owned one, and cannot recommend that particular line for anything other than poorly made knife-shaped objects. I'd almost rather have a Rachael Ray Furi.


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## knyfeknerd (Jul 9, 2015)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> The Premier line is ground 50/50. It's the Pro (now the Pro II) line that is ground flat on one side.
> 
> I appreciate your subtle sense of humor when you recommend a Tojiro shirogami because "you can learn all about reactivity" with it . I've owned one, and cannot recommend that particular line for anything other than poorly made knife-shaped objects. I'd almost rather have a Rachael Ray Furi.



Haha! geez, they aren't that bad? Are they? I will say they look pretty wonky when you rub the "kuro uchi"(a light dusting of blackish paint)off, but hey, they get sharp!


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 9, 2015)

knyfeknerd said:


> Haha! geez, they aren't that bad? Are they? I will say they look pretty wonky when you rub the "kuro uchi"(a light dusting of blackish paint)off, but hey, they get sharp!



I'll agree that they get sharp, but whatever cladding Tojiro uses is very highly reactive and doesn't ever settle down. I have a petty that discolors onions despite everything I've tried, including bluing it. Sharp is well and good, but if you can't actually use the knife, what difference does it make? 

A much better inexpensive nakiri is the Tosagata series. I had one, and learned a lot from it:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BUL8ZOQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Rick


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## chinacats (Jul 9, 2015)

One other thought on the Tojiro is that the one I bought looked like it had been ground whilst riding a roller coaster.


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## lukehod (Jul 9, 2015)

riba said:


> When going from my Tanaka 16.5cm nakiri (VG10, great value for money!) to the Watanabe 18cm, it didn't feel like that much longer. When going back to the Tanaka, the Tanaka did feel rather short though. Additionally, the extra weight aids me with cutting (which surprised me, I was coming from the "lighter-is-better" point of view).
> The Watanabe is really thin behind the edge and the steel is rather hard, so I use a microbevel on one side (to compensate for my poor technique  ).
> The choil and spine could use some easing (which is easy to do, but I haven't gotten around to it yet).
> I decided to not upgrade the handle. I figured that if I wouldn't like the handle, I'd rather put a custom handle on it than picking the horn option. But the plastic ferrule doesn't bother me (I was worried about that before buying the knife).



Hmm so maybe I'm best off getting the 180mm and saving a few $$. I am normally in the "lighter-is-better" group, but I guess I am most used to using an 8" chef's knife anyways, so an 18cm nakiri would be pretty similar in size. 

Man it is HARD to pick a knife to choose, especially with so many options!


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## riba (Jul 10, 2015)

Fortunately, there are a lot of *good *options. And you can always use the BST subforum if you are unhappy with a knife  (perhaps also to get your preferences dialed in  just post a WTB perhaps? ).


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## rick alen (Jul 13, 2015)

It's a long post to go thru at this time but if it was not already mentioned for a reasonably priced nakiri or a 210 gyuto for vegetables I don't think you can even come close to the Takamura Migaki. And just for accuracy sake, the Shun Premier line has an SG-2 core which, unlike the Takamura, is rather chippy, even worse than what their VG-10 is known for. Though not that the Takamura is recommended for heavy abuse.


Rick


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 13, 2015)

rick alen said:


> And just for accuracy sake, the Shun Premier line has an SG-2 core which, unlike the Takamura, is rather chippy, even worse than what their VG-10 is known for.
> 
> 
> Rick



Nope. The Shun Premier line is a VG10 core, not SG2.

Shun obfuscates this by calling it VGMAX, but it's still VG10.

And if a knife is "chippy", it's because of technique or sharpening at too acute an angle.


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## rick alen (Jul 13, 2015)

Sorry, got it mixed up with the Reserve.


Rick


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 13, 2015)

rick alen said:


> Sorry, got it mixed up with the Reserve.
> 
> 
> Rick



With all the different lines Shun makes, some of them exclusives to Williams-Sonoma and Sur la Table, it's easy to get them confused. Pity the poor novice trying to make an informed decision if it's hard for us.


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## wrobelan (Jul 14, 2015)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Nope. The Shun Premier line is a VG10 core, not SG2.
> 
> Shun obfuscates this by calling it VGMAX, but it's still VG10.
> 
> And if a knife is "chippy", it's because of technique or sharpening at too acute an angle.



Good evening Pensacola. Do you know of anyone who has tested the metals? (VG-10 & VG-Max) I'm not doubting you, but rather would really like to know how those two steels, which Shun claims to have different compositions, actually deviate. 

I myself think they do not feel the same, but my experience is much more limited than yours. 

Thanks for your input.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 14, 2015)

wrobelan said:


> Good evening Pensacola. Do you know of anyone who has tested the metals? (VG-10 & VG-Max) I'm not doubting you, but rather would really like to know how those two steels, which Shun claims to have different compositions, actually deviate.
> 
> I myself think they do not feel the same, but my experience is much more limited than yours.
> 
> Thanks for your input.



Okay, I did a bit more digging and found this from Shun:

_VG10 is a highly refined stainless steel with excellent edge retention and stain resistance.

VG-MAX has more chromium and vanadium than VG10, which provides even better edge retention and corrosion resistance, and enables Shun to harden the steel so it will take an amazingly sharp edge. VG-MAX is only available in Shun knives.

SG2 is powdered steel; this means it is even more refined than VG10 or VG-MAX and it remains more ductile (less brittle) even though it is very hard. It offers superior edge retention and corrosion resistance, with less chipping._

I stand corrected, but will add that the Shun Premier knives I have handled have been marked VG10, not VGMAX, so this must have been a recent change by Shun to the Premier line.


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## Dave Martell (Jul 14, 2015)

How confusing.


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## wrobelan (Jul 14, 2015)

I saw that too. WS has some VG-10s on its site but Shun's site has all VG-Max. Knock wood no chipping on my VG-Max in the 7 months I've had it. It gets used about twice a week as I only use the honesuki on whole chicken.


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## JayGee (Jul 14, 2015)

Hi - I am a lurker on these forums - not sure if I've ever posted. But I thought I'd chime in on Nakiris because I love them and have a few.

Another choice that doesn't get talked about too much is the Masamoto KK Nakiri - comes KU or Kasumi.
They are quite beastly, don't have the finesse of Shig etc, but definitely do the job and do it well.


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## AllanP (Jul 14, 2015)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Okay, I did a bit more digging and found this from Shun:
> 
> _VG10 is a highly refined stainless steel with excellent edge retention and stain resistance.
> 
> ...



what the hell, that's really strange

Never thought VGMax is not VG10...

I have a Shun Classic that's VGmax


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## WiscoNole (Jul 16, 2015)

It's all relative. The knife OP mentioned, when properly cared for and sharpened, would be better than 99.9% of knives in restaurant kitchens in the US...regardless of what you think of Shun.


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## lukehod (Jul 19, 2015)

I guess I forgot to update, but I went ahead and ordered the Watanabe Nakiri 180mm last week and it should be arriving in a week or so. I went with the stock plastic ferrule just to save a few $ and I figure I can always get it rehandled. 

I am likely going to buy a 1000 grit stone to go with it and to start learning how to sharpen, but how are Watanabe's grinds OOTB?

I'm so damn excited for this blade to arrive so I can start using it!


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## havox07 (Jul 19, 2015)

Great choice!, definitely worth it to just stick with the plastic ferrule for now, since Watanabe's handle upgrades are quite expensive, and there are many fantastic vendors on here selling custom handles!


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## daveb (Jul 19, 2015)

Yes. Best choice among some good recs. Mine came with a decent burnt chestnut handle (I bought it off BST) Then Mikey made the perfect handle for it.

May I suggest a 1/6K combo stone or two stones. I finish mine on 6K usually, sometimes 5K. It makes onions cry.


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## riba (Jul 19, 2015)

Mine was awesome ootb. On synthetic stones, I finish on a riba 5k and a loaded strop. I do use a microbevel on the outside.


Hope you will enjoy yours as much as I do mine.


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## spoiledbroth (Jul 19, 2015)

daveb said:


> ...
> It makes onions cry.


:lol2:


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## lukehod (Jul 23, 2015)

So my Watanabe Nakiri came in early today!! Its fantastic looking, though the fit and finish of the handle leaves a little to be desired (the ferrule is nowhere near flush with the rest of the handle).

My question is what do I need to do (or not do) in order to keep the knife in great condition. Assume I know zero info about japanese knives, though that isn't exactly true. Do I need to be adamant about wiping it off due to the core material's reactivity? Is my plastic cutting board ok to cut on or will it wear the knife edge down too quickly? I've noticed oil on my thumb has been leaving a print on the kurouchi finish when I use a pinch grip, can this be avoided? Anything else I should be weary of?

Just want to make sure I keep my knife in tip top shape. Thanks for all the recommendations guys, I think this is the perfect knife for what I was looking for!!


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Jul 23, 2015)

You might want to start a fresh thread.


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## lukehod (Jul 23, 2015)

Tall Dark and Swarfy said:


> You might want to start a fresh thread.



Yeah guess so haha. I'll take a few pics first when I get a chance and then post!


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