# Softer, muddier stones



## Badgertooth (Apr 2, 2016)

I'm getting more into some of more cosmetic aspects of sharpening and was hoping for a few recommendations. For muddy naturals in the mid to upper range I'm quite well served by what I have, Aoto, shoubudani and maruoyama suita. For muddy synthetics in the upper range I have the Takenoko which I love. I bought a King 800 as I like the contrast and even scratch pattern I've seen it give. I guess I'm after the 1 - 3k synth to use on wide bevels and blade faces and to bridge the gap between the King 800 and the jnats (or Takenoko as the case may be)


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## berko (Apr 2, 2016)

jns red aoto


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## Badgertooth (Apr 2, 2016)

The Matukusuyama? What abt Jon's jinzo aoto?


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## Steampunk (Apr 3, 2016)

Unfortunately, I cannot attest to the Gesshin Jinzo Aoto, but I will second the recommendation for Maxim's synthetic Red Aoto Matukusuyama for your application... It's an awesome stone!

The density of the Red Aoto is just about perfect; soft, but not crazily so. It generates a nice, creamy, yogurt-consistency mud very quickly, but isn't so soft that it's difficult to use on edge bevels. No loading, easy flattening, fast cutting, great feeling stone... The finish it leaves is surprisingly refined if you work it a bit (Not the 'sandblasted' looking kasumi, but the beginning of a mirror on the Hagane, and a nice refined haze on the Jigane.), and it creates contrast without much effort; even if none existed before hitting this stone because you preceded it with Shaptons, etc. I actually would advise _not_ preceding it with stones that create that dark 'sandblasted' style kasumi like the King or JNS 800, as it just makes it harder for this stone to polish out the core steel and leave the best finish that it can (Unless you like not having a more mirrored finish on the Jigane.); use whatever stone in the 600-1K range that you like. It's a mix of 2-4K grit, so exactly what you are looking for to fill the gap. I REALLY like the edge this leaves on harder (61-62hrc+) carbon steel knives for a synthetic stone; great bite and feedback in the cut, but still refined enough for most any task. You can jump from this stone directly to a fast natural finisher without too much issue, or use it to precede your Takenoko. 

Another alternative that you might like, is to actually skip both the 800 and 1-3K level stones, and instead precede your naturals with a Nakato-level J-Nat like a Binsui or an Ikarashi... Maybe even jumping directly from this stone to your Suita, depending upon how fast your Suita is. I have a White Binsui from JNS, and whilst it doesn't cut as aggressively as a 1-2K synth, it still cuts fast enough to eliminate 300-600 grit scratches, has great feedback, doesn't dish a lot (Which is a problem with soft stones and wide bevels), creates awesome contrast even if none existed before, and if you work the mud or use a finer nagura it finishes much finer than you would initially think. It might seem like a big jump going from a mid-grit natural stone like this directly to a natural finisher, but I actually find this works really well providing your finisher is on the fast side. The slightly coarser finish on the knife actually seems to make it easier for me to build up mud on my J-Nat finisher without a nagura, as it kind of 'files' the stone rather than burnishing it like when I jump to a natural after a 6K Synth. A binsui is harder than a King 800 or JNS Red Aoto, so requires a flatter bevel to start with to obtain an even finish, but then again so do my natural finishers, making it something of a moot point... 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## Badgertooth (Apr 4, 2016)

Steampunk said:


> ...
> 
> Hopefully this helps...
> 
> - Steampunk



It sure does!!! Thank you. I hope Maxim gets red aoto in stock again.
Binsui, Aizu, Ikarashi was the other route I was considering. Finding a good binsui seems like a bit of a crapshoot though.


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## ThEoRy (Apr 4, 2016)

I have the Jinzo and love the look it provides following the King 800. To me it's the perfect combination for faux kasumi on wide bevels so I stop there. I'll continue on with the edge to higher grits but for the kasumi appearance I think it's just about the best.


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## Steampunk (Apr 4, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> It sure does!!! Thank you. I hope Maxim gets red aoto in stock again.
> Binsui, Aizu, Ikarashi was the other route I was considering. Finding a good binsui seems like a bit of a crapshoot though.



I'm glad I was able to be of assistance... I did make a slight typo in that post, saying that the Red Aoto polishes the Jigane (Cladding), when I meant to say Hagane (Core Steel) in my sentence explaining how it interacts with the King or JNS 800's. I can't seem to be able to go back and fix it, though? :scratchhead:

I have read that finding good Binsui can be a problem, but for what it is worth Maksim's 'Type-30 White Binsui' stones seem to be pretty good if mine is any indication. He says they're a bit harder and finer than normal. I haven't come across any hard inclusions, and the scratch pattern is pretty consistent for a medium-grit natural stone. It's interesting, as the stone cuts fast enough _following_ a coarse stone to refine the scratch pattern, but if you try to use it on its own where you would a 1-2K synthetic (Like for resetting mildly worn bevels.) it is noticeably slower. Mine cuts Shirogami and simple stainless (Like Ginsanko and Sandvik 12C27 or 13C26, which are predominantly soft, chromium carbides.) the best, and seems to refine most steels well enough from an aesthetic perspective for wide bevel work, but if trying to use it for edge bevels it starts to struggle a little on Aogami or more complex stainless's. That's just my bit of rock, though; another could perform differently. 

I would love to try one of his Ikarashi as they're supposed to be faster and even better feeling, but one thing I like about the Binsui is how well it retains water (So you don't have to keep watering the stone and disturbing the mud.), and the Ikarashi look rather thirsty in the videos by comparison. Swings and roundabouts, I guess... 

- Steampunk


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## Badgertooth (Apr 4, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> I have the Jinzo and love the look it provides following the King 800. To me it's the perfect combination for faux kasumi on wide bevels so I stop there. I'll continue on with the edge to higher grits but for the kasumi appearance I think it's just about the best.



I'll be honest, it was some of the pics you posted of the King 800 finish that made me buy the King 800 so I appreciate you commenting on the Jinzo. Got the most uniform results I've ever achieved on a wide bevel when I gave the King a workout last night.


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## Badgertooth (Apr 4, 2016)

Steampunk said:


> I'm glad I was able to be of assistance... I did make a slight typo in that post, saying that the Red Aoto polishes the Jigane (Cladding), when I meant to say Hagane (Core Steel) in my sentence explaining how it interacts with the King or JNS 800's. I can't seem to be able to go back and fix it, though? :scratchhead:
> 
> I have read that finding good Binsui can be a problem, but for what it is worth Maksim's 'Type-30 White Binsui' stones seem to be pretty good if mine is any indication. He says they're a bit harder and finer than normal. I haven't come across any hard inclusions, and the scratch pattern is pretty consistent for a medium-grit natural stone. It's interesting, as the stone cuts fast enough _following_ a coarse stone to refine the scratch pattern, but if you try to use it on its own where you would a 1-2K synthetic (Like for resetting mildly worn bevels.) it is noticeably slower. Mine cuts Shirogami and simple stainless (Like Ginsanko and Sandvik 12C27 or 13C26, which are predominantly soft, chromium carbides.) the best, and seems to refine most steels well enough from an aesthetic perspective for wide bevel work, but if trying to use it for edge bevels it starts to struggle a little on Aogami or more complex stainless's. That's just my bit of rock, though; another could perform differently.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'm mighty tempted by the Ikarashi. And in light of Rick's comment, the Jinzo.


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## Mrmnms (Apr 4, 2016)

It's worth reaching out to Jon at JKI. I have a 1200 grit stone from Jon I use, softer and muddier than my other similar grit stones. Feels somewhat finer than 1200 grit.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 4, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> I'm getting more into some of more cosmetic aspects of sharpening and was hoping for a few recommendations. For muddy naturals in the mid to upper range I'm quite well served by what I have, Aoto, shoubudani and maruoyama suita. For muddy synthetics in the upper range I have the Takenoko which I love. I bought a King 800 as I like the contrast and even scratch pattern I've seen it give. I guess I'm after the 1 - 3k synth to use on wide bevels and blade faces and to bridge the gap between the King 800 and the jnats (or Takenoko as the case may be)



Sounds like you just need an excuse to buy another stone I have the Jinzo Aoto. Use it for spiffing up my single bevels. Puts a nice Kasumi finish on the soft iron. You can put some shine on the unclad edge with a polishing stone. Also works on soft iron clad knives like some Carter's. The finish is slightly darker than the norm for Kasumi. Of coarse it gets darker when you apply a thin coat of mineral oil. I had never done this before Jon at JKI gave me some tips when I bought the stone.


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## Dardeau (Apr 4, 2016)

The Jinzo Aoto provides the easiest and best kasumi of anything I have seen.


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## XooMG (Apr 5, 2016)

Anyone got any photos?


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## Badgertooth (Apr 5, 2016)

keithsaltydog said:


> Sounds like you just need an excuse to buy another stone I have the Jinzo Aoto. Use it for spiffing up my single bevels. Puts a nice Kasumi finish on the soft iron. You can put some shine on the unclad edge with a polishing stone. Also works on soft iron clad knives like some Carter's. The finish is slightly darker than the norm for Kasumi. Of coarse it gets darker when you apply a thin coat of mineral oil. I had never done this before Jon at JKI gave me some tips when I bought the stone.



Guilty as charged.


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## berko (Apr 5, 2016)

> Mine cuts Shirogami and simple stainless (Like Ginsanko and Sandvik 12C27 or 13C26, which are predominantly soft, chromium carbides.) the best, and seems to refine most steels well enough from an aesthetic perspective for wide bevel work, but if trying to use it for edge bevels it starts to struggle a little on Aogami or more complex stainless's.



thats exactly how i feel about my ikarashi.


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## ThEoRy (Apr 5, 2016)

On my Gesshin Hide Usuba.







On my Yoshikane 210mm petty.


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## Asteger (Apr 5, 2016)

Nice kasumi on the shots above!



Badgertooth said:


> It sure does!!! Thank you. I hope Maxim gets red aoto in stock again.
> Binsui, Aizu, Ikarashi was the other route I was considering. Finding a good binsui seems like a bit of a crapshoot though.



Binsui will be coarser than the other 2, and Aizu a little finer than Ikarashi, so not all the same


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## Badgertooth (Apr 11, 2016)

And we shall name her 'the chocolate bar':


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## Badgertooth (Apr 11, 2016)

Definitely still coming for one of Jon's Jinzo's after the love in this thread.


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