# Push cut vs Pull cut vs chop



## rmrf (Sep 23, 2020)

I've seen a few discussions around push cut vs rocking and the recent discussion about cutting techniques with vegetables. I would like to start a discussion about cutting techniques that do not involve prolonged board contact. 

Do you notice a difference in speed, accuracy, or "quality of the cut" when comparing pull/push/chop?
The place I most see pull cuts is cutting fish. I have no experience cutting fish. Is pull cutting easier or better for some reason here?
Does sharpness of knife play any role in which style of cutting works best? For example, I suspect I don't feel comfortable with chopping cuts (no motion in the direction of the spine of the knife) because I started cooking with dull knives and its easier to cut things with a high cutting speed.
Do you observe a knife dulling faster with any of these techniques? From a machining standpoint, I've been told that running with too slow speed dulls the tool bit (I'm not a machinist, don't quote me). Is there an analogy here? Does chopping dull the knife appreciably more than a pull or push cut?
Does food release change with pull/push/chop or is it a purely knife dependent property?
Is push/pull/chop any different with a workhorse vs laser?
I am interested in this because on the internet, I've seen a lot of conflicting opinions about the same knife. I'm wondering if differences in how people cut can explain the difference in opinion. Or, are different opinions simply personal preference or wanting to optimize different aspects of the knife.


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## Twigg (Sep 23, 2020)




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## ma_sha1 (Sep 23, 2020)

I think both knife, the condition of the knife & the person have influence in their feedbacks.

I do mostly push & pull cuts. Push cut is more natural & I can deliver more power if needed but pull cut is easier as I usually land the knife in mid front, pulling will result in having thinner portion of the knife going through food after landing.

Quick chopping is fun but its not as universally applicable to all type of food, for example it’s easier to do it on green veggies & potato than thick carrots.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 23, 2020)

I prefer to cut everything horizontally, that way the cutting board never dulls my knife. I use my fingers like a cage, gripping around all sides of the item to stabilize it. Then I slide the tip of the knife horizontally between each finger gap, rotating the cutting board until I've hit every side. Then I roll the item and repeat. Hope this helps


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## M1k3 (Sep 23, 2020)

Aiyeh


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## Byphy (Sep 23, 2020)

For the record. If r0bz and rmrf or future account jakemarklarry buy $500 worth of knife from me while taking on all the risk. I will vouch for them on BST.


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## Twigg (Sep 23, 2020)

JML is like a piece of cheese with the corners missing, he ain't never gonna be a slice.


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## ian (Sep 23, 2020)

I think pull cuts are faster, maybe since pull muscles are usually larger and quicker to twitch or something. Biceps vs triceps? Idk, maybe that's bullsh*t but they seem faster to me. It's also easier to put a _lot_ of pull in a pull cut than it is to put a lot of push in a push cut (the latter is quite hard). So, if you're cutting something with a skin like a tomato that needs to be sliced open by the teeth of the knife, pull is better.

Push cuts allow you to use more downward force. If you push directly out from your shoulders while leaning forward, you'll be pushing down and also forward. I guess that's not exactly how a push cut works, but it makes sense that it would be a good way to exert a lot of force in the direction of the board. Much better than pull cuts in this dept. So, push cuts are better for dense ingredients that take some force to get through.

Pull cuts are better for food release imo. Part of this is what masha said: at the end of your cut the food ends up on the _shorter_ part of the knife (spine to edge distance is smaller), so there's less knife for the food to stick to. Also, many knives have some distal taper, where the knife gets thinner toward the tip, so that can make a push cut feel nicer... in contrast, when you push cut with distal taper, the part of the knife going through the food keeps getting bigger and bigger (even more so than it usually does just from the knife getting thicker as you approach the spine), so maybe that makes it a bit harder to make the cut? Idk, maybe that's nonsense, but the cuts do feel different. I guess you could also make an argument that push cuts are good for food release, since at the end of the cut the food is on a part of the knife that typically has more convexity, since distal taper forces the geometry of the blade face to be flatter near the tip. I like the food release on pull cuts personally, though.

I find controlled chopping is easiest when there's enough weight on the knife, and a slightly forward balance, to get the knife to plow through the food mostly on the weight of the blade. A back balance will allow for really rapid, whippy chopping.

I'd expect pull cuts to be best for edge retention, since the impact with the board is usually less forceful, at least when I do them.


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What's with all the hate on this thread? I know y'all are sick of some other people, but this seems like a perfectly reasonable question.


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## aaamax (Sep 23, 2020)

am I the only one that feels like he's missing something???


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## Twigg (Sep 23, 2020)

Perhaps @ian is right. A few people are probably jaded towards those who post similar threads to the OP. You know who you are and you should be ashamed of yourselves for the meanness.


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## rmrf (Sep 23, 2020)

Twigg said:


> View attachment 95890


I couldn't help myself. These discussions are amazing.



Byphy said:


> For the record. If r0bz and rmrf or future account jakemarklarry buy $500 worth of knife from me while taking on all the risk. I will vouch for them on BST.



 I will try this.



ian said:


> I think pull cuts are faster, maybe since pull muscles are usually larger and quicker to twitch or something. Biceps vs triceps? Idk, maybe that's bullsh*t but they seem faster to me. It's also easier to put a _lot_ of pull in a pull cut than it is to put a lot of push in a push cut (the latter is quite hard). So, if you're cutting something with a skin like a tomato that needs to be sliced open by the teeth of the knife, pull is better.



That's very interesting! I should practice pull cuts more and see if my speed improves. I definitely agree that pull seems to do better with tomatoes. When I still had heirlooms, pull cutting them was a lot easier than push cutting but I viewed it as a more, precise? type of cut.



ian said:


> Push cuts allow you to use more downward force. If you push directly out from your shoulders while leaning forward, you'll be pushing down and also forward. I guess that's not exactly how a push cut works, but it makes sense that it would be a good way to exert a lot of force in the direction of the board. Much better than pull cuts in this dept. So, push cuts are better for dense ingredients that take some force to get through.



The video posted by m1k3 and my own experience backs this up. Different strokes for different applications.



ian said:


> Pull cuts are better for food release imo. Part of this is what masha said: at the end of your cut the food ends up on the _shorter_ part of the knife (spine to edge distance is smaller), so there's less knife for the food to stick to. Also, many knives have some distal taper, where the knife gets thinner toward the tip, so that can make a push cut feel nicer... in contrast, when you push cut with distal taper, the part of the knife going through the food keeps getting bigger and bigger (even more so than it usually does just from the knife getting thicker as you approach the spine), so maybe that makes it a bit harder to make the cut? Idk, maybe that's nonsense, but the cuts do feel different. I guess you could also make an argument that push cuts are good for food release, since at the end of the cut the food is on a part of the knife that typically has more convexity, since distal taper forces the geometry of the blade face to be flatter near the tip. I like the food release on pull cuts personally, though.


You've convinced me of both explanations! You must be a theorist  (7th joke down)




ian said:


> I find controlled chopping is easiest when there's enough weight on the knife, and a slightly forward balance, to get the knife to plow through the food mostly on the weight of the blade. A back balance will allow for really rapid, whippy chopping.


All of the knives I've used have been fairly light. I will watch for this in the future though. 




ian said:


> What's with all the hate on this thread? I know y'all are sick of some other people, but this seems like a perfectly reasonable question.



Haha, I am sort of inviting this behavior with my timing.


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## Byphy (Sep 23, 2020)

rmrf said:


> I will try this.



Did you mean "buy" 

Joking aside, my personal opinion. Learn all the cutting styles. The versatility is useful. Push cuts are much faster but someone with great knife skills can speed through pull cuts as well. In fact, before you even get to deciding between push and pull, or whatever, get your stance right. Something that I had to be reminded of frequently. You should be in a comfortable position where your wrist isn't straining and you can have a nice relaxed, repeatable motion. And then cut things. You'll find out what's best for you.


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## rmrf (Sep 23, 2020)

Byphy said:


> Joking aside, my personal opinion. Learn all the cutting styles. The versatility is useful. Push cuts are much faster but someone with great knife skills can speed through pull cuts as well. In fact, before you even get to deciding between push and pull, or whatever, get your stance right. Something that I had to be reminded of frequently. You should be in a comfortable position where your wrist isn't straining and you can have a nice relaxed, repeatable motion. And then cut things. You'll find out what's best for you.



Good advice, thanks! Ian and ma_sha1 convinced me to try and get better at pull cuts. With regards to stance, that makes a lot of sense and isn't something I would pay attention to. I'm a young home chef and home chefs probably don't cut enough that things hurt until they get old enough that changing habits is hard.


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## LUWerner (Sep 23, 2020)

M1k3 said:


>



Ok, this does not have anything to do with the cutting method _per se_, but something that I always avoid, and on this video you can see it. I always try to never scrap the pieces I just cut with the edge of the blade; if I have to shove stuff around the board, I use the back of the blade. I'm just a home cook, therefor I never have to do anything in a hurry, so maybe this is different for the professionals. But I have the feeling that dragging your edge horizontally over the board will dull the edge, so if I have to shove stuff around I either use the back of the blade or a spatula or something.

But I have to wonder - nonsense on my part?


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## Kippington (Sep 23, 2020)

LUWerner said:


> Ok, this does not have anything to do with the cutting method _per se_, but something that I always avoid, and on this video you can see it. I always try to never scrap the pieces I just cut with the edge of the blade; if I have to shove stuff around the board, I use the back of the blade. I'm just a home cook, therefor I never have to do anything in a hurry, so maybe this is different for the professionals. But I have the feeling that dragging your edge horizontally over the board will dull the edge, so if I have to shove stuff around I either use the back of the blade or a spatula or something.
> 
> But I have to wonder - nonsense on my part?


It's fine if you do it lightly. The whole idea of a good board is that it preserves your edge, whether hitting it during a cut or lightly scraping it to move food.

Anyone that uses a knife often and knows how to maintain an edge, they won't care much.


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## M1k3 (Sep 23, 2020)

Yeah, the scraping the edge bugs me too. But that's another thread and video


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## slickmamba (Sep 23, 2020)

You should learn both push and pull cuts like everyone is saying. I switch between the two styles, usually pull if the product is small/soft, and push if the product is tall/hard/large


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## sododgy (Sep 23, 2020)

LUWerner said:


> Ok, this does not have anything to do with the cutting method _per se_, but something that I always avoid, and on this video you can see it. I always try to never scrap the pieces I just cut with the edge of the blade; if I have to shove stuff around the board, I use the back of the blade. I'm just a home cook, therefor I never have to do anything in a hurry, so maybe this is different for the professionals. But I have the feeling that dragging your edge horizontally over the board will dull the edge, so if I have to shove stuff around I either use the back of the blade or a spatula or something.
> 
> But I have to wonder - nonsense on my part?




It's not necessarily nonsense, but I also don't think it's nearly as big of a deal as people make it out to be. I was the same for the first week that I got my first nice knife. Then I remembered that I'm a working cook, knives are tools, and I bought stones for a reason. 

Using your knife dulls your knife. IMO, using it to move food counts as using it just as much as cutting.


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## ian (Sep 23, 2020)

But... but...but... you can use the spine of the knife to push food around! Why waste your precious edge life on that when it takes like 1/4 of a second to rotate your hand? Plus, it makes a nicer noise on the board when you use the spine! Aiyah the noise! Aiyah the pain!

(If you use the edge, I won't say anything, but I will silently judge you. I don't care if it makes no significant difference in edge life.)


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## juice (Sep 23, 2020)

ian said:


> but I will silently judge you


As long as you're silent, do whatever you want, I say


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## ian (Sep 23, 2020)

juice said:


> As long as you're silent, dso whatever you want, I say


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## sododgy (Sep 23, 2020)

ian said:


> But... but...but... you can use the spine of the knife to push food around! Why waste your precious edge life on that when it takes like 1/4 of a second to rotate your hand? Plus, it makes a nicer noise on the board when you use the spine! Aiyah the noise! Aiyah the pain!
> 
> (If you use the edge, I won't say anything, but I will silently judge you. I don't care if it makes no significant difference in edge life.)



1.) If you add up all of the 1/4 seconds I save by not making weird unnatural motions, I fully believe that it outweighs however much time it takes to "repair" whatever wear is done by scraping. 

2.) **** having to clean the spine. It bothers me way more than it should to have to wipe garlic/onions/anything remotely sticky off of the spine specifically. Add those seconds of something I can't stand to time I'm saving. 

3.) twisting my hand in that direction is uncomfortable and feels wildly unnatural. 

3.) using to lift and transfer ingredients. With my Shibata AS, sure, no problem. My Mazaki? I might as well try to pull food up onto a brick. 

4.) I trust myself not to run or bump into anyone with my blade up. I can't say the reverse is true, especially in a working environment


I have way too many many neuroses to add one that I fully believe to be wildly unnecessary if you're using any degree of care and thought. Hell, even if you aren't.


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## ModRQC (Sep 23, 2020)

Twist the knife not the hand. It's a flicker of fingers. 

Also use some basic sense, if you care about this specifically. Meaning: if you have a full board to scrape, or rather sticky ingredients, use the spine. _As you cut_ use the edge, much faster, no biggie. 

But of course that's just me. Here we like to pretend we know by not thinking. The video is perfectly alright - he uses the edge scrape as he cuts.


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## M1k3 (Sep 24, 2020)

ian said:


> But... but...but... you can use the spine of the knife to push food around! Why waste your precious edge life on that when it takes like 1/4 of a second to rotate your hand? Plus, it makes a nicer noise on the board when you use the spine! Aiyah the noise! Aiyah the pain!
> 
> (If you use the edge, I won't say anything, but I will silently judge you. I don't care if it makes no significant difference in edge life.)


Yo handled and most knives with Machi make using the spine easier. It's also why I wanted my custom to have that.


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## M1k3 (Sep 24, 2020)

sododgy said:


> 4.) I trust myself not to run or bump into anyone with my blade up. I can't say the reverse is true, especially in a working environment


I had to put my leg down for this one. Why are you walking around with stuff on your knife?!?! Put it in something or use your hands!


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## sododgy (Sep 24, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I had to put my leg down for this one. Why are you walking around with stuff on your knife?!?! Put it in something or use your hands!



Lol, what? I think you missed what I was getting at. I could have been more clear, but I thought it was kinda obvious...

I know that I won't run or bump into anyone (because I'm not moving, because we're talking specifically about moving stuff on a board...), I can't say the same for the people around me. With an edge constantly down, I don't have to worry about people around me at all.


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## LUWerner (Sep 24, 2020)

ian said:


> Plus, it makes a nicer noise on the board when you use the spine! Aiyah the noise! Aiyah the pain!


And that's the second (or _first_?) issue I have with scrapping the edge - the noise. It makes me feel kind of dirty, as if I'm molesting my knife.


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## ian (Sep 24, 2020)

sododgy said:


> I have way too many many neuroses



Me too, my friend. In my professional writing, I will alter my wording so that the last line in every paragraph is at least a quarter of the page in width. I feel compelled to do this even if it’s a rough draft that will be changed like 200 times before publication. In fact, upon publication the margin width almost always changes, so this compulsion doesn’t affect the final product at all. It just looks so stupid to have a single word or whatever on a line that I can’t bear to look at it while writing!


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## Uncle Mike (Sep 24, 2020)

Scraping board 

spine of the knife is several mm tall. When you go to scrape food up off board with the spine, it has to go over this lip to get onto the blade. Dustpans are flat to the floor for a reason

I want the edge of my knife facing the board, not me

I have to flip the knife around to use the spine, then again to resume chopping

holding the knife at a 20° angle to the board and scraping isn’t going to dull it. Unless you’re using a cinderblock for a cutting board, you’re not going to dull the knife no matter what you do. If the knife does get dull - isn’t that why I have stones?


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## ian (Sep 24, 2020)

Uncle Mike said:


> spine of the knife is several mm tall. When you go to scrape food up off board with the spine, it has to go over this lip to get onto the blade. Dustpans are flat to the floor for a reason



Oh yea, doing that would be totally dumb. You use the spine to just scrape stuff to the side, not when you’re lifting it up on the blade.



Uncle Mike said:


> I have to flip the knife around to use the spine, then again to resume chopping







Uncle Mike said:


> Unless you’re using a cinderblock for a cutting board



Hmm, looks like this technique has some supporters! 







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I gonna beat this horse! Beat it! Die! Die! @M1k3, talk me down with one of your memes!


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## M1k3 (Sep 24, 2020)

ian said:


> Oh yea, doing that would be totally dumb. You use the spine to just scrape stuff to the side, not when you’re lifting it up on the blade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Uncle Mike (Sep 24, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 95992



ok. I thought this was a place to discuss kitchen knives and their usage. I see I was wrong.


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## M1k3 (Sep 24, 2020)

Uncle Mike said:


> ok. I thought this was a place to discuss kitchen knives and their usage. I see I was wrong.


It is.
Just messing with Ian.

Glad you're engaging instead of starting 20+ threads with questions on various knives and steel and completely ignoring everyone's comments and questions. Then the first engagement back is to crap all over a foreign postal system's performance during an international pandemic.


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## juice (Sep 24, 2020)

ian said:


> Me too, my friend. In my professional writing, I will alter my wording so that the last line in every paragraph is at least a quarter of the page in width.


Gotta avoid those widows!

I have so many issues to overcome with academic writing, not the least of which being that after many years as a journalist, a sentence is a paragraph. 

And those sentences are short and clear.

#Sigh


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## Goorackerelite (Sep 24, 2020)

I love pull cuts the most, They release food so cleanly and it just feels so satisfying. I wish I could pull cut all the time on every thing!


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## Twigg (Sep 24, 2020)

My favorite is the push cut. It feels the most natural to me. BDL's G&G is next. Yes, I use to read Cheftalk a lot. I know BDL was polarizing at times, but always tried to help. Almost caused me to buy a Sabatier. I feel that the pull cut can give the cleanest cuts though, but I only use it with my Sujihiki and Takohiki.


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## ian (Sep 24, 2020)

I think BDL’s pretty universally appreciated here. I almost bought a Masamoto HC years ago because of him, for better or worse.


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## Twigg (Sep 24, 2020)

I was sad to read that he passed in 2016. Even though he left the knife forums, I like knowing he was still out there.

HC and not the KS?


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## FishmanDE (Sep 24, 2020)

Its all personal preference/ based on the job. I rock cut generally because that's where I feel like I have the best control to speed ratio thereby giving me the best consistency. Pull cutting, or slicing, for me has the most control, but the speed suffers. Chopping has the highest speed but least control for me. And push cutting is only for when I'm making decisive cuts through something that needs additional force to get through (i.e. block of cheese, or bone). If you want to talk about trying different styles to the same ingredient and how that affects the edge, Chopping does the most damage IMO as you have the least control and it rolls down hill based on my previous statements on control. In regards to the type of steel vs style, I think its a matter of right tool for the right job. Every steel has its strengths and weaknesses, it's up to the chef to chose a steel which highlights the requirements of the jobs that needs to be done. There isn't a one style/ steel/ design fits-all solution.


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## ian (Sep 24, 2020)

Twigg said:


> I was sad to read that he passed in 2016. Even though he left the knife forums, I like knowing he was still out there.
> 
> HC and not the KS?



ya, he was all about the hc.


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## FishmanDE (Sep 24, 2020)

I also dont think you should read too deeply into various knife reviews. Often times most people have different motives for uses. For example, wedging. I've read a lot of people knock knives for wedging and I cant for the life of me as a professional chef figure out who actually cares about that. And if for some reason that did matter to someone, its more of a matter of working with more appropriately sized or processed ingredients I.e. if the carrot wedges, half it length wise first instead of just working it whole or buy smaller carrots. I've had my share of crazy chefs flip out on me for nonsense, and not once has anyone ever said something to me about something like wedging. point is, know what matters for your job/situation and buy for that.


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## ian (Sep 24, 2020)

I hate wedging.


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## FishmanDE (Sep 24, 2020)

ian said:


> I hate wedging.



Hey man, whatever you're into. Like I said, motivations are different. My top priority is edge retention and durability personally. Different strokes


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## ian (Sep 24, 2020)

FishmanDE said:


> Hey man, whatever you're into. Like I said, motivations are different. My top priority is edge retention and durability personally. Different strokes



Yea, I hear that. I cook at home, no need for retention. All I care about is the feel and ease of the cut, and a bit of food release.

Also, I care deeply about the feel and ease of sharpening.


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## Twigg (Sep 24, 2020)

ian said:


> ya, he was all about the hc.


You are right. I think my confusion was from the KS being super popular around that time.


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## NO ChoP! (Sep 24, 2020)

All I can say is... No ChoP!


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 25, 2020)

Reminds me many decades ago. Got thrown into banquet prep at Sheraton Waikiki. Cook gave me sample cut of how he wanted button mushrooms.

Then gave me 5 cases. Speed was expected. Learned how to chop 
with same thickness slices. Was slower at first didn't want to screw up. By the time finished was doing it at speed.


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## Goorackerelite (Sep 25, 2020)

ian said:


> I hate wedging.


Wedging is unacceptable imho


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## Ruso (Sep 25, 2020)

FishmanDE said:


> I also dont think you should read too deeply into various knife reviews. Often times most people have different motives for uses. For example, wedging. I've read a lot of people knock knives for wedging and I cant for the life of me as a professional chef figure out who actually cares about that. And if for some reason that did matter to someone, its more of a matter of working with more appropriately sized or processed ingredients I.e. if the carrot wedges, half it length wise first instead of just working it whole or buy smaller carrots. I've had my share of crazy chefs flip out on me for nonsense, and not once has anyone ever said something to me about something like wedging. point is, know what matters for your job/situation and buy for that.


It’s very common that profesionals and home users/enthusiasts have different priorities. This is across many hobbies, not just knives.


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