# The Custom Knife Myth



## Mucho Bocho (Sep 11, 2015)

I know there will be mixed opinions but I'd like to share mine on the myth of custom knives. I've been buying fancy J-Knives for about five years now. Most of my knives are ready-made and some semi-custom from small volume smiths. 

I've had semi-custom knives that were outstanding performers but most were Meh, like, whats all the fuss about. I'm not going to name names, but I've also handled many custom or semi-custom knives that didn't perform as well as the ready-made knives i've owned. When I see folks that have never handled a knife say, Ooh and Aww, it always amazes me. I know there there are lots of different types of profiles out there in differing weights. But just because a custom knife has the same the specs and similar looks to a known performer (shig, Kato, Kono), doesn't mean they perform like them. I've had some very underwhelming experiences with semi-custom blades. Most didn't perform as well as good as my off the shelf knives.

Also, I like the fact that with non-custom knives, there is a return policy. I'll never buy another knife that I haven't handled prior, without a return policy. I realize that there are blacksmiths that make custom knives that are superior, but those brands are usually in the thousands of $. 

I also feel that too many knife consumers equate fit and finish with performance. There is this myth that because the knife "has a custom handle and is polished all shiny and is photographed well, it must be a good cutter right," not necessarily. 

I've personally been underwhelmed with several custom makers (mostly US) that make super pretty and shiny knives that are middle of the road performers or worse. Just because their using gold leaf, Bog oak, ZDP clad in Damascus that are thin behind the edge and thick on the spine, doesn't mean its going to be good performers. "Don't judge a book by its cover" as the saying goes. 

I guess I've also concluded that it takes several generations of knowledge to really understand what makes a kitchen knife perform well. Curious that others think.


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## Noodle Soup (Sep 11, 2015)

Something I learned the hard way many years ago when I was trying to make a living selling culinary and meat packing knives is that most home users buy largely on the appearance of the handle. Reading posts here for a number of years hasn't change my opinion on that. A fancy handle and a "Damascus" Shun style blade will out sell a plain, plastic collared Shig everyday of the week.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Sep 11, 2015)

I'd agree on everything except the last part about generations of knowledge. We are living in the internet era and there's no need for generations anymore, as all the info is there for everyone who is dedicated enough to read and learn. And I happen to own at least 2 top performing custom knives from makers who doesn't have any generations of blacksmith behind them. But otherwise I'd agree with Mucho Bocho. There are more than just one custom maker who have no idea what a good performing kitchen knife is.


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## Adrian (Sep 11, 2015)

Very good thread, though bout dot be controversial. This mirrors my experience somewhat too. I have a few custom knives from non-Japanese artisan makers , and in general my workhorse (but high end) Japanese knives outperform them significantly. My Misono UX 10s outperform them too. 

Whilst custom knives can be beautifully finished, and can be cosmetically excellent, and sharpen well, I have had a variety of issues including blades that stick far too much, handle / blade balance is wrong, fancy handle looks nice but does not feel good in the hand. Often, in my experience, makers obsess about cosmetics but lack the insight to achieve optimal functionality. It is of course quite possible that knife collectors don't care much about this. 

For me the difference between skilled Japanese makers (usually with a great many years experience) and some of the artisan western makers, is that the Japanese prize function above all. This is probably where the generations of experience comes in: the designs have proven functionality and the makers can replicate this repeatedly and reliably. 

Although I have some knives with damascus, fancy handles etc, my go to knives for serious amount of prep work or very fun work, are the traditional Japanese ones. These are all very plain.


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## easy13 (Sep 11, 2015)

I fully agree with the exception of a knife made by a maker with a shape you come up with, materials, etc.... In that case I feel a higher price is justifiable and that you are on your own if it doesn't perform with high profile Japanese brands. Semi customs, one of a kinds... have tended to disappoint and sometimes anger me minus a few that remain in my collection.


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## Asteger (Sep 11, 2015)

Totally about the handles. Don't get me started. 

I have limited experience with non-Japanese knives. However, of course with J-makers people like to put in 'custom' requests too. I think of it in terms of restaurants, where you're probably best going with the house special instead of trying to request they throw something together a bit different for you. If you're trusting the maker to make you the knife, probably also a good idea to trust them to work out what they can make best, which they surely have and so built their reputation on.

Besides, if you like to customise your knives, apart from the handle phenomenon, once you have the knife there's all sorts of stuff you can and eventually will need to do: sharpening, thinning, restoring finish/polish, etc, not to mention breaking out your sandpaper and aiming for those coveted rounded choils and spines if that's important to you (overrated, I think, and a $-increaser). 



icanhaschzbrgr said:


> I'd agree on everything except the last part about generations of knowledge. We are living in the internet era ...



Loads of info is out there, but there's always an important place for the right teacher/mentor/etc, which the 'traditional' makers should have. I guess this is where the 'generations' thing will pay off, and youtube can't quite compensate. Also, it has to be easy to be over-confident these days, feeling you know it all because you can find everything on the net, but even if you've got most of the right knife knowledge there are all sorts of physical skills to develop over time, which can't quite be all there if you've done something for 3 years as opposed to 30 years, and you've done things mostly alone instead of as an apprentice.


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## Asteger (Sep 11, 2015)

Just another thought on the above. Even though Mucho Bocho is basically dissing the customisation craze, he still talks about 'ready-made' and 'off the shelf' knives. If you get a handmade knife from a good maker, it is still handmade and somewhat unique. If that maker is also willing to produce a 'custom' - let's say a thinner version of what he'd usually make - it will be different from what he usually produces, but that doesn't mean that the others are mass-produced, uninteresting or inferior in comparison. I don't think Mucho Bocho meant to make the 'normal' versions sound that way, but maybe people sort of think along these lines and perhaps seek out unnecessary things and spend unnecessary $.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Sep 11, 2015)

Well, my point of view might be very stupid, since I'm nowhere near bladesmithing, but it looks like all those generations of Japanese bladesmiths can't really offer anything that could beat modern metallurgy in the hands of good maker. The hardest thing is to HT steel properly, but with modern furnaces where you could get precise control over temperature, the traditional methods (as shown by Murray in his "kiya" videos) becomes redundant. While there could be some romantic in using old steel, I don't really see any benefits (other than lower costs maybe) over modern steels. 

As for geometry  you can take a caliper, measure a best performing Japanese blade and copy it. You don't need generations for this. 

For a long time my "best overall performer" was Kato. But then custom makers from US and Australia has made an even better knives (and both of those makers have been into knives making for less than 10 years). So after trying many high end Japanese knives that carries the wisdom of generations, I settled on two modern knives that performs better. And that allows me to argue that one's doesn't have to spend a whole life to achieve something. If you are open minded and willing to learn  you won't need those generations.


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## sharptools (Sep 11, 2015)

Out of curiosity

@icanhaschzbrgr what are the two knives?

@muchobocho what are your top performers?


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## XooMG (Sep 11, 2015)

The knowledge base is plenty big right now, and opportunities for useful guidance abound; it is easily possible for a knifemaker to "figure out" kitchen knives to a high standard.

The hardest parts are, in my opinion:

wanting to establish brand/product identity too quickly
inability to discard cool design ideas when they prove suboptimal
experimenting with too many variables simultaneously
not experimenting enough (staying safe) due to inefficient methods
trying to recoup costs of everything made from the beginning
making too many assumptions about finish and geometry
confirmation bias and not seeking _thoughtful_ critique
arrogance and stubbornness--not unique to Americans
There are other problems that emerge from communities like this, but the ones above apply to many makers who don't deal with forums.

One of the better things for a knifemaker to do is sit down with a few good knives and study them, trying to understand what makes them tick for the people who use them. Ideally, they should be from a few thickness ranges. No quick conclusions or rushing to outperform (the "I can beat that" mentality). If one wants to modify cheap knives (Wakui knives are excellent candidates, but many others like Tadafusa and even Tosa stuff will work), learn them first and see what their limits and issues are, and whether they can be solved with minimal effort. Modification should be incremental.

Just some opinions to add to the heap. I doubt it'll be particularly meaningful or useful here, but it was cathartic to type.


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## Adrian (Sep 12, 2015)

Icanhasschzbgr - whilst I understand your points, and whilst it is true that a calliper (or laser scanner for that matter) can accurately measure any blade, this does not achieve much for the artisan maker. One of the problems that a custom maker has, is that they need to justify their high prices. The prices are high because very often their process is very labour intensive and little work is delegated to cheaper employees. Producing fancy damascus is very time consuming and fancy handles have a high material cost and are also labour intensive. 

Modern metallurgy is not a real issue. The Japanese have consistent access to high quality steels and in some cases western makers struggle to get these. Programmable temperature controlled ovens are readily available for use in the hardening and tempering process and you definitely see them in Japanese co-operative workshops. I think part of the issue that Mucho Bocho has identified here is one of rapidly diminishing returns when turning to a US custom maker. The same argument can almost equally be applied when choosing say a Shigefuasa over a more modest brand of J knife.

In the end it comes down partly to affordability: if you have ample cash $2000 for a custom knife is irrelevant and it becomes about personal choice. If you have to work the line for several weeks to afford that knife, then you will value it in a rather different way. I admire the craftsmanship of some of the custom knives I see here and elsewhere, but don't covet them as kitchen tools. In my case I see more beauty in simplicity. 

It would be interesting to hear the views of people here who regularly buy custom knives (usually gyutos it seems). What are the advantages and disadvantages?


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## gic (Sep 12, 2015)

Although I am only an amateur cook and cannot imagine the amount of cutting you pros do, I have found that some custom makers, like Devin Thomas for example, have not only mastered heat treatment but their grinds are excellent. In particular their semi custom knives certainly compare quite favorably to say my Shigs in cutting ability and release for roughly the same price. On the other hand, I have some incredibly beautify damascus knives with awesomely beautiful handles that have to be regarded as works of art primarily. This is because, even if I were to use them to cut vegis say, the food release and basic cutting ability doesn't compare well to say a DevinITK or a Shig... 

And as Adrian said some of the mass produced inexpensive Japanese Guyto's like my very cheap Masahiro carbon or my pretty cheap Misono dragon cut and sharpen like a dream. Heck my first quality J knife which was a Mac pro 210 cuts pretty darn well.


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## Bill13 (Sep 12, 2015)

My first thought on this is Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers where he posits that it takes 10,000 hours to master a skill and since a 40 hr work week is basically 2,000 hours this is 5 years. I personally think he is too low. However I also think the naturally gifted can also be much quicker to master their interest. I apprenticed for 4 years to become a Journeyman electrician and while I passed the test in my forth year it was not until my 7th year when I passed the Masters test I felt I really knew what I was doing, and now at 31 years in I'm still learning:biggrin:. 

Chef's work many more hours than that a week so I would be curious how long it was until they felt on top of their "game".

I also think another exception could be Dave M. in that his years of sharpening knives has given him the eye and feel for knowing what works, allowing him to move ahead of the learning curve, although I am sure he would tell you he is still learning.

There was a thread a while back that dealt with the wisdom or lack thereof in requesting a knife maker change a knife profile they have perfected. I personally think it's a mistake but that might be because I am not skilled enough to have hard and fast personal preferences, although the Shig profile really speaks to me:biggrin:.


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## SolidSnake03 (Sep 12, 2015)

Agree with much of what is said here regarding the custom myth minus the amount of time it takes to get really good at making a good knife. I don't think that takes generations or even 2-3 decades, if you have the drive and the passion and the knowledge it shouldn't take nearly that long to make something that cuts exceptionally well.

That said, I've tried or owned probably a good dozen or more custom knives and out of all those only 2 were worth the money and were something I would consider as an actual upgrade to most of the stock production stuff out there. Have a Tanaka Blue #2 and a Masakage Shimo that both cut as well or better than everything but those 2 knives so by and large I agree that most of the custom stuff really is more about story and style over substance. The function does not equal the price in many many cases.


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## Asteger (Sep 12, 2015)

SolidSnake03 said:


> Have a Tanaka Blue #2 and a Masakage Shimo that both cut as well or better than everything but those 2 knives



Funny, as I just got my first Tanaka Blue2 and, yes wow, it does well. It lacks some character to me, is kind of generic, but thinking of price vs performance - as has been said many times - I'm sure it shames many others.


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## SolidSnake03 (Sep 12, 2015)

It absolutely does, I've owned dozen's of production knives from very many different makers and the Tanaka is exceptional, positively is and best just about everything I've ever tried (production wise)


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## limpet (Sep 12, 2015)

XooMG said:


> The knowledge base is plenty big right now, and opportunities for useful guidance abound; it is easily possible for a knifemaker to "figure out" kitchen knives to a high standard.
> 
> The hardest parts are, in my opinion:
> 
> ...



Many good points there, but I especially like the one I highlighted. This is a bit OT because it's not really about custom knives, but if a knife maker is inexperienced (the beginning of the career), then why should I as the customer pay for the extra hours and mistakes? I only want to pay the value of the end product. Now, what that value really is, I guess that's for "the market" to decide, and we all know how stupid _they _can be...


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## Noodle Soup (Sep 12, 2015)

I think one of the worst things to happen to custom kitchen knives in this country is the whole Bob Kramer phenomena. Everyone wants to jump in selling multi-thousand dollar knives to rich people with more money that knowledge on what works. That market is never going to be that deep. Shun is still probably the absolute top end for the majority of non-knife geek people.


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## Adrian (Sep 12, 2015)

Friend of mine, living in US, (and who posts here regularly) buys knives everywhere at all price points and thus has a pretty good overview. He told me a story about really cheap Korean (I think) knives, that his girlfriend chose as her every day user. It cost about $8 and is (he told me) a good knife. 

It's like everything...the members on this forum (me included) are obsessed with high quality knives and we are willing to pay for exceptional quality, accepting the diminishing returns. It is ridiculous really: I have around ten yanagibas. They will easily last me and my sons and their sons a lifetime. Wide range of prices (none cheap) but easily and by miles the best is a very plain 330mm Shigeharu from Kyoto, that I picked out myself. I can't really remember what it cost but I would guess it was around $300 - $400 US ( I was there in person and my wife and I and our Japanese friend spent half a day with the family). I know for sure that I will not better this with any custom maker in the US or Europe. There is no point in me trying to better it. The handle is a decent and fairly cheap, good quality D shape in magnolia and light buffalo horn. Has a couple of dents in it actually (they were there from the get go). Looks like nothing as a knife apart from being long and having an exquisite (but not fancy) finish. One of the Japanese chefs that we got to know on our last trip was very taken with it and offered a significant profit to get his hands on it. The fact is that in Japan the very fancy knives are seen as ostentatious and I can understand why. We have a different viewpoint and aesthetic in the west. East v West are equally valid.


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## WildBoar (Sep 12, 2015)

Funny thing about kitchen knife makers -- many of them do not cook much or really spend a lot of time using their knives as intended. So when we talk about one 'perfecting his grind', that is based on feedback from others, and he usually does not have the knife in-hand when he gets that feedback. So at best he has to go by memory when he makes the next one. And I don't think many of the Japanese makers are any different in this respect then western makers.

in general my experience (which includes talking to other forum members tracks with MB's. Some pros on this forum have customs from many of the top makers, yet their real go-tos in the kitchen are Japanese knives that are definitely not customs, and in some cases are mass-produced. and dusually cost less than $250.

For me personally, buying a fully handmade knife from a western maker is largely like buying a piece of original art versus a print, buying a swiss watch instead of a Seiko, etc. And even beyond that, it is a way I can help keep western craftsmen in business, and they in turn can train future generations. Wer're already seeing in the Thomas and Haas families. Hopefully someday there with be 6th generation + smiths in those families, and people all over the world will be talking about how they are special due to the long lineage of makers on pass-on information. hey, even those japanese makers all had to start with a first generation, right?

(I hope this post is not too disjointed, or does not repeat others. I started it ~ 6 hours ago and got pulled away from the computer multiple times by my son).


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## pkjames (Sep 12, 2015)

I think one aspect that does require generations of experience and development is the know how of producing things good at a fast speed. 

You also need generations to really build up an industry and the surrounding suppliers. There are handle makers, saya makers and other specialized suppliers in Japan. The blacksmith really just need to do forging and maybe sharpening. That of course would mean economic of scale and reduced cost compared to individual knife makers without access to such techniques and suppliers.


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## Noodle Soup (Sep 12, 2015)

All true but American custom knife buyer have trouble with the idea that the smith didn't make every last little part of the knife. Buy handles in bulk from a handle specialist for instance would lead to them saying the knife really isn't handmade.


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## goatgolfer (Sep 12, 2015)

Betty Crocker (r) was able to convince the american home cake baker that if they added the egg (not homemade but henmade) to the cake mix, some vegetable oil, some water and some elbow grease then the cake was homemade. So, I don't imagine any knifesmith dug the ore to start the steel (even Kramer uses meteorites as a head start) so handmade is just a measure of degree and degrees.

Realization of the finest design elements into beauty and perfection of function are a handy way to express ones handmade capabilities as well.


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## Canadian (Sep 13, 2015)

I agree that looks are not indicative of performance. However, the best cutter I have is incidentally also the best looking, best finished and most interesting...

Is a Shigefusa. I really don't care to own another type of 'Japanese' knife.


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## chinacats (Sep 13, 2015)

Canadian said:


> I agree that looks are not indicative of performance. However, the best cutter I have is incidentally also the best looking, best finished and most interesting...
> 
> Is a Shigefusa. I really don't care to own another type of 'Japanese' knife.



Mic Drop...


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 13, 2015)

Noodle Soup said:


> I think one of the worst things to happen to custom kitchen knives in this country is the whole Bob Kramer phenomena. Everyone wants to jump in selling multi-thousand dollar knives to rich people with more money that knowledge on what works. That market is never going to be that deep. Shun is still probably the absolute top end for the majority of non-knife geek people.



Agree with the Shun they sell them everywhere. Other mainstream makers like Ken Onion chef knives border on total crap. Most people not even aware of high end makers. If there is a market for Kramer's , Randy, Marco and other high end smiths that also make very nice handles it is a much smaller market. The amount of work as a solo operation they will not get rich making knives. Some are works of art if someone has the coin & wants a beautiful knife it is all good.

Function bang for the buck cannot beat Japanese knives.


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## brooksie967 (Sep 13, 2015)

Great read so far guys and interesting opinions as well!


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## jimbob (Sep 13, 2015)

Ive had a mixed bag from western semi customs. Some, including harner and dt, were that first cut omg sort of thing. Sublime performance with great looks to boot, which is a plus to many western buyers, myself sometimes included. Others were quite "meh". Guess its the whole demand/supply thing.


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## ecchef (Sep 13, 2015)

goatgolfer said:


> Betty Crocker (r) was able to convince the american home cake baker that if they added the egg (not homemade but henmade) to the cake mix, some vegetable oil, some water and some elbow grease then the cake was homemade. So, I don't imagine any knifesmith dug the ore to start the steel (even Kramer uses meteorites as a head start) so handmade is just a measure of degree and degrees.
> 
> Realization of the finest design elements into beauty and perfection of function are a handy way to express ones handmade capabilities as well.



Interesting comparison...very well stated.


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## XooMG (Sep 13, 2015)

goatgolfer said:


> Betty Crocker (r) was able to convince the american home cake baker that if they added the egg (not homemade but henmade) to the cake mix, some vegetable oil, some water and some elbow grease then the cake was homemade. So, I don't imagine any knifesmith dug the ore to start the steel (even Kramer uses meteorites as a head start) so handmade is just a measure of degree and degrees.
> 
> Realization of the finest design elements into beauty and perfection of function are a handy way to express ones handmade capabilities as well.


Might be a bit trite, but...
[video=youtube_share;5_vVGPy4-rc]http://youtu.be/5_vVGPy4-rc[/video]


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## panda (Sep 13, 2015)

you could dangle a $2000 custom knife in my face and i wouldn't even blink ONCE about using it over my favorite ready made knife.


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## sharptools (Sep 13, 2015)

@panda, what is your favorite ready made knife?


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## panda (Sep 13, 2015)

takeda 270 gyuto (asked for shorter blade height one as the stock ones are way too tall), i have put my own modifications on it however. (reprofiled, thinned, rehandled)


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 13, 2015)

Does that mean the Takeda was not made with eggs.:cookingegg: I'm a little fond of my rehandled 270 too


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## aboynamedsuita (Sep 13, 2015)

Also have a 270 Takeda (NAS), it's EXACTLY 270. I ordered from Tosho before the prices increased and had to wait for it to come in. I've had issues with some other NAS Takedas but I really like this one; once it's new handle arrives from Mikey it'll be something special


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## Matus (Sep 13, 2015)

OT is basically right. I love my quasi-custom gyuto from Andy, but I am not trying to fool myself that a "production" knife for $300+ would not perform the same, give or take. I love Andy's work and I also appreciate to support a person with his skills (and mindset).

The thing is, when we talk about "production" knives, we basically think of knives made by Japanese smiths/workshops where all the work is being made by very skilled masters, and not machine-made knives like Wusthofs (which can be surprisingly costly given the performance). To expect a US (or UK or somewhere in Europe, you get the point) made custom knife will outperform $500 knife from Japanese masters would somehow suggest that those generations of masters somehow overlooked something that single smith discovered in the course of couple of years - a very improbable scenario in my opinion.


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## Asteger (Sep 13, 2015)

Matus said:


> ... when we talk about "production" knives, we basically think of knives made by Japanese smiths/workshops where all the work is being made by very skilled masters ... To expect a US made custom knife will outperform a $500 knife from Japanese masters would somehow suggest that those generations of masters somehow overlooked something that a single smith discovered in the course of couple of years - a very improbable scenario in my opinion.



Been said before, was said well here again, and has to be pretty much true. 

To me the appeal of the US, etc, custom makers has a lot to do with their look being more to some people's tastes, but also to the greater connection some people may feel to the maker. Maybe it feels good to know that one guy has done all this and that and made and then shipped you that knife, that you know his name and could correspond directly with him by email, probably in your own language, you can imagine where he lives better and his workshop, possibly he's even in your country and you'd just generally like to support someone like that. 

Of course it's entirely possible you can do most of this with Japanese makers, too, who might appear more remote, but shouldn't seem like a distant entity or lack identity. Ones I've met have been very down to earth, have friendly families, and even fairly humble workshops to the extent that it's sometimes surprising to imagine such celebrated knives originating from such places. It's nice to have knives made by them. You're also supporting some valuable traditions and a culture which still seems like it's healthy, but might still always be under threat from mass production, etc, and certainly it's important for knife fiends, with Japan being the centre of the kind of knife production we like, that Japanese knifemaking stays healthy. 

So the the custom 'myth', as Mucho Bocho named it, applies again. Of course you get great quality for a fair price. But also I think the money you spend is just as well or even better spent when sent to Japan, though of course it's very much a personal preference.


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## malexthekid (Sep 13, 2015)

Asteger said:


> Why is the money better spent in Japan? It is just another economy. They make knives to suit there main targets, aka the Japanese market.
> 
> Western makers make knives to suit there market.
> 
> ...


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## toddnmd (Sep 13, 2015)

malexthekid said:


> We are essentially trying to argue personal preference here.



Yes, though I don't see it as argument so much as explanation of why people have certain preferences. I don't see posts that are really pushing people to buy or not buy a custom, just explaining what they like and why.

There are certainly good reasons to buy both ready mades and customs--my plan. 

From an "objective" standpoint on pure performance, I think Japanese production knives win. They also take advantage of a team working within specializations, which an individual maker is going to have trouble matching in performance at the same pricepoint, or even more. But there are some good reasons to support individual, custom makers. And aesthetics are a worthwhile upgrade for a good number of people.


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## oldcookie (Sep 14, 2015)

Here's what I get from this thread. 

If you want a small set of kick ass knives to use day to day, go Japanese.
If you own 50 or 100 knives, which you mostly use for display(or as drawer fillers), and occasionally take them out to thinly slice a tomato, go American/Western.

Did I get that right.


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## XooMG (Sep 14, 2015)

oldcookie said:


> Here's what I get from this thread.
> 
> If you want a small set of kick ass knives to use day to day, go Japanese.
> If you own 50 or 100 knives, which you mostly use for display(or as drawer fillers), and occasionally take them out to thinly slice a tomato, go American/Western.
> ...


I think there's another useful take:

If you get a nice but underhyped knife and share it in the "Show your newest knife buy", you won't get the kind of fawning admiration that even a mediocre custom maker's work will, but relatively unsatisfied confirmation bias does not mean you have an inferior product.

I am pretty much done with American custom makers, except for some outstanding projects. Some custom makers do fine work, but I am a bit too impecunious to justify the luxury or inefficient makers' overhead.


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## SousVideLoca (Sep 14, 2015)

Seeing the derpy "handcrafted" hipster nonsense push the accessibility of custom knives away from the industry professionals who would actually use them--convincing a thousand dudes with beards and belt grinders that their sanded down bar-stock is somehow worth the price of five knives--has been so tragic it bordered on comedy. If I see one more YouTube video where a guy with with less experience holding knives than my 16 year old prep cook talks about his _Craft_, while looking knowingly down the unimpressive grind of his mediocrity, I'm going to puke.


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## Adrian (Sep 14, 2015)

SousVideLoca said:


> Seeing the derpy "handcrafted" hipster nonsense push the accessibility of custom knives away from the industry professionals who would actually use them--convincing a thousand dudes with beards and belt grinders that their sanded down bar-stock is somehow worth the price of five knives--has been so tragic it bordered on comedy. If I see one more YouTube video where a guy with with less experience holding knives than my 16 year old prep cook talks about his _Craft_, while looking knowingly down the unimpressive grind of his mediocrity, I'm going to puke.



That made me laugh out loud. There is indeed a hell of a lot of grinding going on.


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## malexthekid (Sep 14, 2015)

XooMG said:


> I am pretty much done with American custom makers, except for some outstanding projects. Some custom makers do fine work, but I am a bit too impecunious to justify the luxury or inefficient makers' overhead.



Sorry, but I can't just leave this statement go. While I am sure your comment is correct for some makers, as a generalization it is just infuriating. The higher cost for the American maker is more likely a result of the economy the american make lives in. The escalated cost of rent, power, fuel, food etc. rather than "luxury or inefficient makers' overhead." And also the markets they are selling in. They can afford to charge more to the American market, where people with money enjoy the "higher end" knives. As opposed to the Japanese market, where it seems it is a dying thing and they are only selling to the chefs or overseas market.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Sep 14, 2015)

malexthekid said:


> Sorry, but I can't just leave this statement go. While I am sure your comment is correct for some makers, as a generalization it is just infuriating. The higher cost for the American maker is more likely a result of the economy the american make lives in.


Could be economy or with the same probability could be maker's inefficient. Such generalisations doesn't make any sense IMO.
XooMG seemed to just express his own experience with some US makers, rather than making broader statements at least it's how I read it.


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## chefcomesback (Sep 14, 2015)

So , every now and then when custom knives are mentioned someone will bring this topic again . Are the custom knives worth their price tags ? are they good value for what you pay ? I am going to call it just custom makers rather than US makers (believe it or not there is many makers ouside of Usa too)
if we look at the entry level knife recommendations (lets just base it on a 240mm gyuto ) we will always see the usual suspects : Tojiro's , Tadafusa , Tanaka , fuijwara etc.. There is no way any western maker (small or big operation ) can compete with their performance at the price level . Knifemaking in japan is a big industry and this segment they are killing it. There is usually divison of labour and efficiency is great. We can all buy one of those mentioned knives and this issue will be solved .Altough we all know they more than enough for most users we all spend more on knives the cost justified or not . 
Middle level knives (lets say up to $300 ) where things are more hand made and price tag is slightly higher than the first tier the performance increases quite a bit along with fit and finish . I think these knives are best logical purchases and again Japanese are very good at this segment , possibly their best work is at this segment
Then we go the $300 plus knives , the high end class of shigefusa , Kato , Heiji starting at $500 . Like with the cars the more performance you get more maintenance your knife demands from you (reactivity of iron clads , hardness of the steel , sherpening ) For some users the extra gain of performance for the added maintenance is not worthed or people just demand something unique either fitting their cutting prefernces or mostly "visual appearance" 
There is a big portion of high end knife users where having something unique with your choice of materials , profile , measurement that you cant buy off the shelf outweighs the romance of generations of traditional maker , the unknown pure mystery steel . There are many people that will judge the book by the cover (fit and finish , handle material etc ) and prioritize over cutting performance. Thats where the custom knives come to play .Custom makers represent the market needs , they make what it is been asked from them to produce . 
How many of the commissions start with " i want a high performance knife rather than i want this pattern damascus and this handle " How many people bought knives from the custom makers showed them at "show your newest buy " said great things in public , complained in pm's then went straight to bst saying, its great knife but not my style ? 
Along with some Japanese knife vendors this and similar forums are founded and supported by the same custom makers . While the problem of a japanese knife gets discussed pages long it makes it difficult to people say their honest opinions about custom makers work on forums . If there is something wrong say it , as you know most of the makers dont cook like pro's and rely on information from passarounds , 3rd parties etc. Very talented knifemaker friend of mine wanted to show his knife's cutting abilities , i had the grab the knife mid way through potato beacuse i coudln't take it anymore. 
Some people see this as shilling some see it as courtesy . You didnt like the performance of your custom knife ? did you tell the maker to fix it ? if they dont offer this service on a "custom " knife i see this a bad customer service . Personally if i was ordering a custom knife and if i wasnt happy about the performance or something about it i will contact the maker and get him to fix it before posting anything negative . I couldnt care less about unevennes of handle if knife cuts great or if it had plain handle . Most Japanese makers have a similar attitude towards this too : is it cutting well ? So what if the handle is not burned in straight.. or there is scratches on the blade etc. Does the japanese knife you bought knife cut well but doesnt release as good or you didnt like the profile ? try exchanging with the maker , good luck ( not the vendors that go above and beyond )
be honest to your selves and to each other : just because its made by at a specific location doesnt make things good , USA , Japan or anywhere else in the world . There are good knives made by good craftsman and there are knives made by medicore craftsman . Dont let "bought a knife from some generation old maker "thing or neither "proudly made here in my country" feeling hide your thoughts .
Speaking of generations of knowledge: My grandfather was very succesful engineer , my father choose to become a lawyer that he had passion for it and he became successful too . Me not having the math skills of my grandfather or the ability to interpret law like my father didnt allow me to follow their footsteps. If i did i am sure i would be crappy engineer or average lawywer at best. I had passion for cooking and became chef , this is what i am good at it. I will do my best for my kids to find something they have a passion for and they can excel . I dont think the generations of informaton applies as much as you think it is . Google crossheart forge , someone that i admire his talent , he is doing traditional japanese blacksmithing in vancouver island in Canada from the info he gathered over the net , even more tradtional than most japanese artisans , just another proof that you dont have to have the generations of this and that.
I am relatively new to the high end knives , but i can say from what i saw over the few years the future of knifemaking is brighter in west than in Japan . First few customs i saw were resembling kitchen knives but thanks to the pioneers like Burke , Kramer , Thomas next generations had already information availabale that made good knives with lot less trail and error . The findings of second generation allowed generation after that ( the makers at their 30's ) even make better knives 
Are all the custom knives are good : No , Some are made for looks , some made to be sold and very few made for to being used at high performance , but i think they are better than how they were lets say 5 years ago
Do custom knives offer bad value : If you are paying $$$$ on a stock removal , machine finished knife because of the "super steel" or the handle material ? biased personal thought :yes but again as long as you are happy it shouldnt concern me , on the otherside if you are happy with your Japanese knife that cost you friction of a custom , thats one less crappy soft mass produced knife user , i am happy for you too.
Also dont be fooled by the value of some japanese knives ; if i spend almost $400 on a knife and have to work the stones to make it cut good thats not good value. If i pay close $400 for a knife that somehow got famous in overseas market and now sold twice as what it used to and 3 times what sould be that is ground by ...insert a joke here .. thats not a good value
at the end i am done ranting , my point is : Dont just stereotype all the makers and brands by their location , there is lot more to it what makes a good knife


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## Adrian (Sep 14, 2015)

It is reasonable to assume a degree of inefficiency when comparing an artisan US maker against a Japanese artisan or semi artisan production facility where a number of people often operate as a kind of co-operative, each specialising in certain tasks. Generalising, it may also be true to say that the western method, when it involves a great deal of gridning to remove material, is time consuming. High end finishes are also time consuming. This is rarer in Japanese knives, but we can certainly buy knives with a very high degree of polish and fancy finishing - and this is reflected in the price. 

The fact is we now buy things in a global market. If one economic area is more expensive than another, then profit margins and slews may suffer. I expect (thigh I have no facts to back this up) that global demand for high end artisan knives is tiny. I also guess that not many high end knife makers are getting rich from it. The business is hard to scale. Very few exploit their brands (Kramer being an exception) efficiently, and there is no business to sell at the end (no real capital value) as the product is tied to the artisan. That is perhaps less so with the Japanese model typically.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Sep 14, 2015)

I also wanted to remind that custom knives from the same maker can be very different, even to the level, when one knife is great performer, and another one is poor performer (crated in the bad mood, or created just for the looks, or crazy customer has specifically requested poor performing knife to blame maker )


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## SousVideLoca (Sep 14, 2015)

malexthekid said:


> Sorry, but I can't just leave this statement go. While I am sure your comment is correct for some makers, as a generalization it is just infuriating. The higher cost for the American maker is more likely a result of the economy the american make lives in. The escalated cost of rent, power, fuel, food etc. rather than "luxury or inefficient makers' overhead." And also the markets they are selling in. They can afford to charge more to the American market, where people with money enjoy the "higher end" knives. As opposed to the Japanese market, where it seems it is a dying thing and they are only selling to the chefs or overseas market.



The price on customs from Western makers has nothing to do with overhead, cost of rent, power, fuel, food, or anything else like that. It's a bubble, plain and simple; or, as you said, "the market they are selling in." The cost of entry into custom knife making -- especially if you start with stock removal, which many do -- isn't especially formidable, and really any twerp with a garage can get started in a couple of days. American consumers have shown that they're willing to pay a premium for mediocrity, as long as that mediocrity comes packaged in a crunchy outer shell of down home organic feelgoodery straight out of a beer commercial: we don't care if this clumsy lump of 01 performs worse than a Wusthof from the glass case in BB&B, because we're paying for the ego trip that comes with the words _unique_ and _handcrafted._ And makers are jumping all over it.

The bubble will burst, eventually. I can't wait.


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## panda (Sep 14, 2015)

i just assume people buying the super expensive stuff are just collectors and have no intention of ever using it. and they would not actually sell if it didnt have an expensive price tag. like said above, it's the market niche it's catering to.


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## WildBoar (Sep 14, 2015)

Geeze, this really went downhill. Talk to some of the makers about how many manhours go into making a knife... In many instances those guys are working for less than $10/ hr. No overhead costs? I don't think that is true at all for any of the serious makers on KKF -- just about all have dedicated shops with lots of equipment. There are also fuel and electricity costs, plus consumables. And last time I checked real estate wasn't free.

Curious why one 'can't wait' until the 'bubble' bursts -- is that so you can buy some of those knives, or so you can laugh at the makers/ buyers?

Panda, what is the super expensive stuff you are referencing? Are we talking real Kramers? Burkes? DTs? Everyone I have personally met on KKF who has knives from any of these makers uses them. Every day for 8-10 hours a day? No, generally not (except Chef Niloc and a couple others) but they tend to keep them in the rotation.

I don't think anyone involved in this discussion thinks a full custom is going to be a better cutter then a good forged Japanese knife, but that doesn't mean the custom makers can't justify their pricing by virtue of the hours they put in on a knife, or that people aren't willing to pay more for a knife that doesn't have a crappy finish and/ or crappy handle. Dog knows plenty of people buy cars that are not Kias, wines that are not Gallo, clothes that are not from Kmart, stereos that are not Bose, etc. And a lot also eat at restaurants that cost quite a bit more than TGIF, yet the food is not 2x's tastier.

As an admitted collector, I have knives from HHH, DT, Will Catchside, Pierre and a couple others, and all are used as intended. Even the Burke I just received is out with some local KKF chefs getting put to use for feedback.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 14, 2015)

I probably shouldn't get involved in this thread at all...but I think it's only fair that someone speak up for the custom makers in this discussion. I know Mucho Bocho didn't make this post with ill intent at all...but it's made in a forum community where any knife maker would have a hard time even commenting in the thread...much less defending their position...while still staying within the rules.



SousVideLoca said:


> The price on customs from Western makers has nothing to do with overhead, cost of rent, power, fuel, food, or anything else like that. It's a bubble, plain and simple; or, as you said, "the market they are selling in." The cost of entry into custom knife making -- especially if you start with stock removal, which many do -- isn't especially formidable, and really any twerp with a garage can get started in a couple of days. American consumers have shown that they're willing to pay a premium for mediocrity, as long as that mediocrity comes packaged in a crunchy outer shell of down home organic feelgoodery straight out of a beer commercial: we don't care if this clumsy lump of 01 performs worse than a Wusthof from the glass case in BB&B, because we're paying for the ego trip that comes with the words _unique_ and _handcrafted._ And makers are jumping all over it.
> 
> The bubble will burst, eventually. I can't wait.



First, I can only speak to the makers I know (and Bob Kramer isn't one of them), but this post is completely inaccurate.

I would like to ask...how much an hour do you all think is a reasonable wage for a skilled craftsman? How much do you make an hour? Now...this assumes there is actual skill involved. I myself am somewhat disgusted by the western market for customs in regards to the performance provided...but that's not the point I'm trying to make here. We're discussing the price on Western customs, not their value. So...wages...$10/hr? $20/hr? $40/hr?? What is reasonable to you as a person who has to live in the US economy? A person who has to support your family?

Lets assume $25/hr to be reasonable for a person to make an even close to reasonable living in most US cities. So now we'll break down some costs.

Handle wood. A wa handle consumes one block of stabilized handle wood on average, with various additional costs in spacer material etc. Other handle types can be even more expensive. Have you priced handle wood lately? An average block of attractive burl wood is around $60. Some less...of course, but many are more. Koa gets into the $100-$150 range. Ironwood, bog oak, leapordwood...the list of expensive handle materials is greater than the list of inexpensive handle materials. We'll assume $60 in handle wood, and $10 in spacer material for $70.

Steel. Steel isn't horribly expensive for good carbon stuff. $50 for enough of it to make 3 knives or so. More if you're talking damascus or stainless san mai stuff. Go price Rob Thomas Damascus for enough steel to make a gyuto. So we'll assume carbon steel, and add in $20 for just one knife...for a total of $90.

Overhead. Shop costs (equipment overhead and maintenance), belts (belts are ridiculously expensive), fuel costs for the forge, electricity, the cost of shop space...this adds up so quickly it's ridiculous. Belts alone will cost $30 or more assuming the blade was forged to shape. More if it was ground from a bar. Hand powered abrasives (sandpaper) are outrageously expensive as well. Easily another $5-$10/knife. Fuel/electricity costs are difficult to quantify, but we'll assume $20/knife for all associated costs outside of abrasives...for a combined cost of $55 on the low end.

So now we're at $145 in materials/costs. This assumes no saya, just the knife. This also assumes no costs involved for failures, or any other incidentals. Let us assume the average 250mm gyuto from a known 'high end' western maker who is doing specialty work (damascus, honyaki, etc) goes for $875, lets break it down further.

$875 - $145 is $730. Divide that $730 by the assumed wage stated above ($25/hr), and you get 29.2hrs to make the knife in. This isn't completely out of the ball park...though many 250 gyuto will go WAY over that. Again, hardening failures, handle failures (you know, when that block of $100 burl wood you bought has an inclusion the size of Texas in it?), and any number of other issues can impact the time and costs involved...but we're assuming a perfect knife, on a perfect week. So your 250mm gyuto represents nearly a week of perfect effort in some guy's life.

As for the cost of entry...a belt grinder is $1500 on average. A good oven is close to the same. Woodworking tools...again, similarly priced for the things you need. Yes, any 'twerp' can get started making knives in a couple days, but it takes a HELL of a lot more than that to get into high end customs.

On to the performance aspects...I know a number of high end kitchen knife makers (many of whom have a reputation for real performance in a knife, not just looks) who are wanting to get out of kitchen knives completely. The market has become saturated with newer makers copying profiles and attempting (and usually failing) to copy grinds. They sell for half or less what the actual value of the knife is in regards to time and effort applied, to 'make a name'. It's frustrating for a maker of quality knives, to say the least. Perhaps this is what you mean by the 'bubble' bursting? If so, good for you...because it's driving the few quality people making these things out of business. Soon all you will have is Japanese knives. I can see many of you will be happy for the fact. It kind of sucks for the few who see the real value in both aesthetics and performance that can be had from a dedicated one man operation.

On the performance aspect...I want you guys to think about something. A LOT of you only have yourselves to blame for the trend of crappy performing, stupidly expensive knives. It has been mentioned that a knife should be corrected if there are issues. For a $1k freaking knife...you deserve to get what you pay for!! If the grind is wrong, it should be fixed. If it CAN'T be fixed, you should receive a new knife! I know one maker who sent a knife to Taiwan. BEAUTIFUL knife. A lot of the communication between the maker and customer centered around ultra thinness. That's what was made. The knife didn't meet the performance requirements of the maker, and while it was very beautiful, it also didn't really wow the customer either...being a limited scope ultra laser. That customer is receiving an ENTIRELY NEW KNIFE built to the maker's performance standards...free of expected charge. This falls into a grey area of communication and expectation on the part of both parties...but if a maker promises you a knife that you won't believe the performance of...and it fails to meet reasonable expectations...he should be working to fix it. Period. If he will not, then ABSOLUTELY CALL HIM OUT ON IT. Publicly. 

I do it with my McDonald's order for $30...you damn bet I'd do it with a custom made $1k kitchen knife.


_~ edited for cell phone typos! ~_


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## DevinT (Sep 14, 2015)

I have made knives for almost 40 years. For most of those years it was rare to find a maker that could make a living making knives. There were many who said they made a living doing it, but they usually had retirement income and a wife that still worked.

All of the old knife makers that I know who make knives make them for the love of knife making. We would do it for free if we could. Automated equipment, free information and money have become the driving force with a lot of new makers that I see. A lot of them charge big bucks without paying their dues first. Some are making some pretty good knives.

The Knife Makers Guild and the ABS here in the states have pushed knives as art rather than tools. Most American knife makers have no idea about how to make a good kitchen knife, and most Japanese kitchen knife makers have no idea how to make an art knife. 

Not all knives fit the personality of all users. I recomend that if you are interested in a maker, you try and visit them, fire up the forge and make something. It will change your perspective about them and knife making.

Hoss


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## mikedtran (Sep 14, 2015)

I'm relatively new to custom kitchen knives, but am currently working with a custom knife maker out of Australia. 

The amount of time it takes between someone ordering a knife and the knife maker just to discuss blade geometry, materials, blade design (how it is finished, any extra design elements) and then handle design and materials can easily account for 10+ hours. I'm still at the point now where I haven't fully decided on a handle design or handle materials yet.

I also believe that part of the whole custom knife making experience is to feel connected both to the creator and the end product. I look at this custom knife as both a tool and a piece of art that I hope not only am I happy with, but that the knife maker is also happy with. I love throwing out ideas for design elements, but if any of them contrast too starkly with the knife makers personal preferences as the blade should reflect both the custom orderer and the knife maker.


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## ecchef (Sep 14, 2015)

I want to thank Chris and Devin for their input. I hope this puts it in perspective.
As a pro Chef, I understand what it's like to be undervalued and how the majority of people outside of BOH operations think that cooks and chefs can just produce food (any food) by magic.


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## malexthekid (Sep 14, 2015)

SousVideLoca said:


> The price on customs from Western makers has nothing to do with overhead, cost of rent, power, fuel, food, or anything else like that. It's a bubble, plain and simple; or, as you said, "the market they are selling in." The cost of entry into custom knife making -- especially if you start with stock removal, which many do -- isn't especially formidable, and really any twerp with a garage can get started in a couple of days. American consumers have shown that they're willing to pay a premium for mediocrity, as long as that mediocrity comes packaged in a crunchy outer shell of down home organic feelgoodery straight out of a beer commercial: we don't care if this clumsy lump of 01 performs worse than a Wusthof from the glass case in BB&B, because we're paying for the ego trip that comes with the words _unique_ and _handcrafted._ And makers are jumping all over it.
> 
> The bubble will burst, eventually. I can't wait.



Go talk to most proper custom makers. I'm not talking about some idiot with a grinder.

These makers aren't making much money. Especially when you take it back to an effective hourly rate.

Not enough to live on. There will always be people that try to take advantage of new fads and produce rubbish. You can see that even in the japanese market.

Not trying to start, or continue a rant, but the western guys offer something you don't get from the japanese market easily. Yes you pay more for it, but you always do.


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## Lucretia (Sep 14, 2015)

"Custom knives suck! My off the shelf knives are so much better! American makers only make pretty handles! And it makes me SOOOOOOO mad that I can't have one because all the richers have driven the prices up!"

The food is terrible and the portions are small.


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## Noodle Soup (Sep 14, 2015)

DevinT said:


> I have made knives for almost 40 years. For most of those years it was rare to find a maker that could make a living making knives. There were many who said they made a living doing it, but they usually had retirement income and a wife that still worked.
> 
> All of the old knife makers that I know who make knives make them for the love of knife making. We would do it for free if we could. Automated equipment, free information and money have become the driving force with a lot of new makers that I see. A lot of them charge big bucks without paying their dues first. Some are making some pretty good knives.
> 
> ...



Best post yet Devin. Your right, "full time knifemaker" usually means one of two things, he is retired with other sources of income or he was laid off down at the factory and needs a job. The last group tend to cease being full time knifemakers just as soon as they can find a real job again. I can name names and I'm sure you can too. And your right about the Guild and ABS pushing knives as art rather than tools. They need people with deep pockets for this and that usually isn't the kind of guy that spends his day cutting stuff for a living. One look at "Knives 2016" will tell you most of the knives in the photos will never cut anything. The nice thing about making art knives is it takes any practical evaluation of performance off the table from the start. 
Then there is the whole "add up all the expenses of making a custom knife and add a wage worthy of the true artist, that is what the knife should cost" thing. Sorry, that is not how business works. You can certainly price your knives that way but if I feel it is more than I think it is worth as a tool to me, then I won't pay it. I don't owe you a comfortable living making hand crafts that make you happy just as you don't owe me any kind of support. Sorry about.


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## aboynamedsuita (Sep 14, 2015)

I am glad to hear some input from "those who know" and am pleased that their comments have concurrence from a moderator.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 14, 2015)

Noodle Soup said:


> Then there is the whole "add up all the expenses of making a custom knife and add a wage worthy of the true artist, that is what the knife should cost" thing. Sorry, that is not how business works. You can certainly price your knives that way but if I feel it is more than I think it is worth as a tool to me, then I won't pay it. I don't owe you a comfortable living making hand crafts that make you happy just as you don't owe me any kind of support. Sorry about.



That's a fair enough assessment, though I think you took my post out of context. It was directly stated that costs and overhead weren't the driving factor behind the pricing of US custom knifemakers. That was the context in which I replied. I'm also not sure what you mean 'that's not how business works'? No business can survive without meeting its overhead somehow. For some makers as Devin said, that's partially made up of other income outside of the product being made. For others it's an all or nothing proposition. This is what they do full time, no spouse, no inheritance money sitting in the bank. I think many of the preconceptions that abound in this forum are based on inaccuracies. Sure, some bladesmiths have outside income, or are 'bearded grinder jockey twerps banging out junk in their garage'. But many, many others are not. I can almost promise you that the guys making $800-$1200 or more a knife...do not fit the stereotype that seems to abound in this thread.

Just out of curiosity, how would YOU suggest pricing a knife? I know that some makers struggle with this. Should they base their pricing on their Japanese counterparts who compartmentalize construction of a knife and pay the workers peanuts (this is something of an assumption...I have no clue what a mass production wa handle shaper in Japan makes) in comparison to a fair wage in the US? What do YOU think is a fair price for a knife that meets a customer's expectations in both aesthetics and performance, and took the guy a week or more to make? One maker I know prices per mm of edge length. He hasn't raised his prices a whole lot since he started, only $1.50.mm total in the years since he began. His first knives took him 70hrs plus to make. It was on HIM to lower his working time, increase his efficiency, improve his tooling and his overall skill level to a point where he was making more than $4/hr. He did it for love of his craft, and the feeling he got when a customer used something to support THEIR family, that he made with his own hands. These knives aren't 'priced' as I said, they're priced by size and options...my explanation was simply a way of explaining one reason why the costs are what they are.

Finally...I'm not sure where the seeming hostility in your post is coming from (unless I'm the only one picking that up? If so...my apologies), but no one owes anyone in this world anything, until they commit to it. No one is forcing you to buy any maker's knife. If you don't like their pricing, that's great! If too many people don't like their pricing, they will either lower it or go out of business. THAT is how business works. Many of these makers that you feel are pricing in a way that 'doesn't work'...have waiting lists of well over a year. If it didn't work, that wouldn't be the case correct?

~edited for more information ~


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## malexthekid (Sep 14, 2015)

ecchef said:


> I want to thank Chris and Devin for their input. I hope this puts it in perspective.
> As a pro Chef, I understand what it's like to be undervalued and how the majority of people outside of BOH operations think that cooks and chefs can just produce food (any food) by magic.



Here here. Thanks for the comments and totally agree.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 14, 2015)

ecchef said:


> I want to thank Chris and Devin for their input. I hope this puts it in perspective.
> As a pro Chef, I understand what it's like to be undervalued and how the majority of people outside of BOH operations think that cooks and chefs can just produce food (any food) by magic.



You are very welcome sir. If I manage to step outside of what is acceptable within the rules, please delete it immediately.


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## chinacats (Sep 14, 2015)

Just for a change of pace...I really enjoy being able to work with a maker that I trust to bring me a knife that is made to my specs. I mostly use J-blades but my favorite knife is definitely a full custom and while a big part of that is that the profile is exactly what I wanted (the grind was left to the maker), another part as pointed out by many is that I was able to play a small role in it's design.


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## Noodle Soup (Sep 14, 2015)

Cris, in my former life I constantly did hear from custom knifemakers how I owed them the support to make a living at their chosen occupation. They also felt it was my job to convince (con) the general public they couldn't field dress a deer, survive a night in the woods or cut an onion without a $1000+ blade. Some went as far as to suggest I should pay them to be allowed to write about or photograph their blades. Way too many of them want to make what they want to make and the public should just suck it up and buy it at their price. After all they need that money to keep doing what they want to do. My point is if you really want to do this you need to find a way to produce a product at a price point where there is a demand and a reasonable profit margin. I've been in enough forges to know most knifemakers don't hammer out one blade after another all day long. They would rather you think it takes 2 weeks for every single blade. Sorry, I know better.


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## malexthekid (Sep 14, 2015)

Noodle Soup,

Where did anyone say they hammer one blade after another. There is available economy with grouping together. And your argument is rubbish. Why should we pay you to write or take photographs... or why shoukd we pay $50 for that meal.

If they did what was required to lower the price point you would whinge because they are just making mass products knives where all they do is out the final edge on a machine made knife.

You can't have it boths. You either pay the price for the labor intensive specialty tool. Or you pay less for a more mass produced tool. It is your choice, but it is just wrong to attackb these guys on charging what they set as a price point to make a living (especially when there is a market at that price). Feel free to disclose your current profession because chances are I can use the same argument to make out that you ate overpaid and ripping people off. ( not a personal attack just a true observation, i can, and do, use the same against myself).


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## malexthekid (Sep 14, 2015)

Oh and noodle soup, as for your comment about some exchanges with makers. You unfortunately can't get rid of the arrogant SOBs. They are in every industry.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 14, 2015)

Noodle Soup said:


> Cris, in my former life I constantly did hear from custom knifemakers how I owed them the support to make a living at their chosen occupation. They also felt it was my job to convince (con) the general public they couldn't field dress a deer, survive a night in the woods or cut an onion without a $1000+ blade. Some went as far as to suggest I should pay them to be allowed to write about or photograph their blades. Way too many of them want to make what they want to make and the public should just suck it up and buy it at their price. After all they need that money to keep doing what they want to do. My point is if you really want to do this you need to find a way to produce a product at a price point where there is a demand and a reasonable profit margin. I've been in enough forges to know most knifemakers don't hammer out one blade after another all day long. They would rather you think it takes 2 weeks for every single blade. Sorry, I know better.



I understand. I also don't completely disagree. The custom knife market in MANY areas is pretty skewed. Nick Wheeler is a good friend of mine...and what he gets for a bowie/hunting knife is insane. Dan Sullivan of DSK Tactical is another very good friend. He makes folders that go for $700-$1200 and they sell before they're even made (he doesn't take custom orders anymore). As a matter of fact, Dan auctioned off a custom slot recently. It went for $3800. JUST the slot. I love Dan to death, but his knives wouldn't open a cardboard box. They're HUGELY thick. The edge bevel is thicker than many kitchen knife grinds are over the choil!! If you actually carried one in your pocket you'd need suspenders lol. The fact is, he has a market, and they willingly pay his prices. Oh also, he has another full time job as a respiratory therapist. Nick is also not a full time maker anymore. 

Anyway though, that's why some makers I know gravitated to the custom kitchen knife market. To have a customer USE your knife 8-12hrs a day...day after day after day after day...that's a testament to your abilities. You're contributing to the quality of someone else's life. That is INVALUABLE...hopefully to both parties. Same goes for the custom razor market. These are tools people use every day of their lives!! That in itself is its own reward, and Devin is right to say that if it could be done for free...by many makers, it would.

On the knives taking two weeks thing...I just asked a custom bladesmith friend of mine's log book information for his last three knives.

205mm gyuto, 50hrs
200mm gyuto, 33hrs
270mm gyuto, 28.5hrs

No one said two weeks, though those hours may in fact be spread over two weeks, or two months depending. Often more than one knife is being made at once...but the total hours are the total hours.


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## Eric (Sep 14, 2015)

Look ther are knives that perform period, regardless of fit and finish. My tanaka and takeda gyutos are my best performers per dollar by far. However some of my knives like my HHH, Raders etc are great knives that are also functional art. There really is no comparison,


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## easy13 (Sep 14, 2015)

An issue I have with custom makers is one of delivery of purchased goods and quality of said goods. I have experienced personally and seen on here many instances of people putting up their hard earned money (customers also work hard to make their money, some through multiple jobs, no inheritance money sitting in the bank) and not receiving the product they purchased at the time guaranteed; sometimes having to wait ridiculously long periods with large amounts of money already paid out. Health issues aside, I find this poor commitment to delivering a purchased product bad business an inexcusable. Along with that, of the multiple custom/semi custom knives I have purchased, 3 have come with major flaws that would be noticed with slight attention. I am not including other issues experienced like scratched blades & unfinished handles. Sure, a small time maker cant compete price wise with a Konosuke, shoot, I have $160 Itinomonns that perform equally/better, but when it comes to something like customer service and delivery of quality product there should be equal, even better service provided. This is not applied to all makers out there and I am not applying this to proper "wait list" protocol, but it is a repetitive issue I have experienced and have seen others.


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## malexthekid (Sep 14, 2015)

Easy13 this is a valid complaint. And one that can be levelled at all makers. At least the QC issue. People excuse it at the lower japanese end because you are paying less and it is coming from a market where those flaws don't matter to the majority of their market so QC of those items aren't a priority. 

The other complaint is one in many industry of poor business skill. The best engineer doesn't make the best manager of director of an engineering firm. Just like the best knife maker doesn't make the best knife making business/customer. 

It is an unfortunate part of the human psyche that it seems the default for the gifted doers is to over promise and under deliver.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 14, 2015)

malexthekid said:


> It is an unfortunate part of the human psyche that it seems the default for the gifted doers is to over promise and under deliver.



This is CLASSIC...and unfortunately accurate more often than not when it comes to delivery times...even for the best of the makers. It's definitely NOT excusable...but unfortunately it's a reality.


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## oldcookie (Sep 14, 2015)

Putting on my business hat for a bit.

Some common pricing strategies.

1. Cost plus pricing: which is we are talking about when we talk about hours, material, etc. These generally works with contracts, one-off purchased, etc. It good of the seller cause it straight forward, but doesn't really take the consumer's value system into account. For a consumer, if they can get a product they think is similar at half the price, they would, because cost is not their concern. This is effectively what people are talking about when they talk about price-performance ratio. If a custom maker choose this pricing strategy and market their products accordingly, it will invite the type of arguments we see in the thread.

2. Market pricing: Which is when the product is priced based on competitors offering and pricing, e.g. pricing based on what Japanese knives cost. If one can't make money with at market price, one either get out of the market or differentiate by making something significantly different, for a different market segment, so it's hard to do direct comparison. 

3. Value based pricing: Set price based on the value created for the customer. This works only if the value you create for the customer exceeds the price they are being charged. A knife cut things, so there needs to be other intangible values created to justify this, like scarcity, pride, identity, etc. This is where Kramer is probably.

Due to the difference in level of demand, buyers buying customs with expectation of cost/market based pricing will likely be disappointed. That's the nature of the market. Buyers who buys based on the other added values, and understand what those values are to them will be happy. 

This whole thread seems to indicate a mismatch between what the buyers think they are buying, and what the makers think they are selling.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 14, 2015)

oldcookie said:


> Putting on my business hat for a bit.
> 
> Some common pricing strategies.
> 
> ...



This could be. It's tough to say honestly. I mean the simple answer is a kitchen knife :biggrin:. Honestly though, I think most of the makers at the level we have been discussing are selling one of three things (and on rarer occasions, some or all of the above) in no particular order. The first being performance, the second being aesthetics, the third being the experience of ordering from a custom maker and having an input in the design of the knife. The greater theme behind them all though, should be customer satisfaction. For many of these makers, I think it is. Some customers are content with a beautiful knife that was 'made for them' that wouldn't cut a banana. Others might be happy with a wonderfully performing knife that was simply different than everyone else's. Still others yet might be happy with a knife that didn't quite top either of the other two charts...but that they had an absolute hand in the design of. I think the best experiences...and the one that many customers believe they are getting with any custom purchase...is a mix of all three. To me, it's what they SHOULD get. The fact is though that that isn't always the case...which makes for the mismatch/discrepancy you mentioned.

A bladesmith I know was recently contacted by someone to ask about a knife that had ordered from another prominent maker. The maker was working outside of his comfort zone, and the result was a genuine failure on more than one account (the handle was STUNNING). My friend urged the person to not accept the knife in any way...there was no way it would be a viable blade. He was told that the maker had offered a money back guarantee and that he was going to accept the blade. My friend still urged him not to...because to anyone with experience in that type knife there was no way the blade was going to work out, and in his mind he believed the maker should have known that himself, so why allow the blade out of the shop at all? He accepted it anyhow, and yes, the knife was a failure...and I'm happy to say the maker honored his money back guarantee. He truly was simply out of his comfort zone and had no way of knowing for sure that the knife had failed. That's the kind of thing that should be the norm in these situations. That's the kind of experience (well, hopefully with a better initial outcome lol) that should be had if a situation doesn't work out between a maker and customer. I do know that unfortunately that's not always the case, which is another sore point with me in regards to western customs...and again touches on the mismatch between a customer's expectations and a maker's expectations.


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## oldcookie (Sep 14, 2015)

Cris, I think you just pointed out another difference. In a production knife, the parameters are relatively well known. In a custom, often, there are experimental parameters, and sometimes no one know how things are really going to turn out.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 14, 2015)

oldcookie said:


> Cris, I think you just pointed out another difference. In a production knife, the parameters are relatively well known. In a custom, often, there are experimental parameters, and sometimes no one know how things are really going to turn out.



This is very, very true....with both eastern and western smiths. I've seen threads where people have tried to dictate specifics to Japanese smiths, and the answer they receive is 'Yes, yes! We do this!'...and the knife they get is usually just a shelf knife with a different handle (if that) lol. For western smiths, it's usually not a lot different. 'Oh yeah, I can do that!'. Generally there is at least something of an attempt to meet the demands of the customer, but often (again, particularly if the knife style or grind is out of the maker's area of comfort), the results aren't any better from the customer's viewpoint.


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## Adrian (Sep 14, 2015)

The debate here is in some ways peculiar. Prices for custom knives, by and large, must be affected by the price of a high-end artisan Japanese knife or a good commercially made manufactured knife. This will tend to put a ceiling on the value many buyers perceive from custom makers. Buyers who seek art will have a different price point and they may perhaps sacrifice functionality for the sake of the art. 

The peculiarity to me, as a businessman, is that custom knife makers seem to be in a bind when it comes to pricing. Very often, good makers have a waiting list that stretches out for months or even years. This suggests that demand greatly exceeds their ability to supply. It also suggests that they could charge more. Some sales would then fall away, but they would make more money from fewer knives. Price elasticity may be required to recover demand at some point and this can be a risky game to play for the small business. They could of course seek to adopt a more efficient business model, where some work is undertaken by apprentices or paid skilled staff, and the artisan concentrates on the elements that add most value  of which one is definitely dealing directly with the customers. 

I like making things too  but I would not dream of doing it for a living. For me the real business problem with custom knife making is that it is not scalable and the business does not acquire capital value either. The craftsman is selling his skills attached to his name: and when he stops work, his business is over and all that is left if the residual value of used machinery. Thus this field presumably attracts people who enjoy making knives, but who are not necessarily interested in making a lot of money. 

Probably cheffing is much the same. Some superstar chefs manage to leverage their brand with multiple restaurants, TV deals, books etc. The vast majority dont though. I see it as quite similar to knife making in that sense. 

Devins post was salutary and his points well made. I respect artisan knife makers for their craft and I admire their skill and artistry when they deliver that craft well. I wish I had that skill but I lack both talent and time sadly. Despite respecting their skill, in my case I am rarely willing to pay a premium price for a custom product, as for me function (at a given level of excellence) is what I value most. This will be the case for the vast majority of people as, this forum aside, most of the population buy knives as tools of necessity and do not attribute much special value to them. 

All this said, I am glad that there are people out there who are willing ad able to make custom knives. It adds to the variety available to us and it sustains a craft into the future. Society has lost too many creative skills as so many of us stare at screens, clicking keys or fondling our smartphones. :running:


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 15, 2015)

You make some interesting points my friend.




Adrian said:


> The debate here is in some ways peculiar. *Prices for custom knives, by and large, must be affected by the price of a high-end artisan Japanese knife or a good commercially made manufactured knife.* This will tend to put a ceiling on the value many buyers perceive from custom makers. Buyers who seek art will have a different price point and they may perhaps sacrifice functionality for the sake of the art.



Why do you believe the prices are related at all? I actually think they aren't...and if it weren't for a select group of people here who try to tie the two together, they wouldn't be perceived that way by anyone. I know very few US makers who are influenced by the Japanese knives...other than perhaps general profiles and/or handle shapes. For some, this is to their detriment. For others...it's a very big benefit. Often, being influenced by a product already established boxes a person into a way of thinking. It limits them in a way, opening some doors while painting others over in such a way that they are never seen. To me, it's better to come at something fresh, without preconceptions. Focus on it as a problem with a myriad of solutions, and see which solutions you can blend into the most effective answer to the problem. I ask my 8 and 9yr old's opinions on real world issues I face on a regular basis. Not because I believe that they will hold the answer, but because they have NO PRECONCEPTIONS, and will often hold the key to an answer I would never have come to on my own. This has served me in my various careers, as well as in other ways...since they learned to speak.

I guess my point though is that other than for select people in places like this forum, where Japanese knives are the staple and standard that everything else is compared to...most people have no clue what a gyuto even is. For the better educated of that lot, the gold standard Japanese knife is a Shun santoku. I promise you though, thanks to places like Facebook and Instagram, along with Pinterest and other social media centers...they do know what a custom kitchen knife is, and many are even prepared for the price tag that goes along with it. One maker I know, with over a year waiting list...told me most of his customers come from Instagram and Facebook, with only a handful coming from here. Oddly, those customers are still full time food preparation/service professionals of various levels. They apparently don't balk at a $900 250 gyuto either...and value performance as highly or higher than the people complaining about the high pricing of customs on these forums.




Adrian said:


> The peculiarity to me, as a businessman, is that custom knife makers seem to be in a bind when it comes to pricing. Very often, good makers have a waiting list that stretches out for months or even years. This suggests that demand greatly exceeds their ability to supply. It also suggests that they could charge more. Some sales would then fall away, but they would make more money from fewer knives. Price elasticity may be required to recover demand at some point and this can be a risky game to play for the small business. They could of course seek to adopt a more efficient business model, where some work is undertaken by apprentices or paid skilled staff, and the artisan concentrates on the elements that add most value  of which one is definitely dealing directly with the customers.




Pricing is absolutely a struggle for many makers....particularly initially. Also, and I want you to think about this...overpricing is far better for many of them than underpricing. One can always hold a 'sale'...or give a 'break' to a potential client for whatever reason. But the second you raise your prices based on overhead or demand or ANYTHING else, you're a dirty no good selfish greedy jerk who's just out to take people's money.

Seriously. 




Adrian said:


> I like making things too  but I would not dream of doing it for a living. For me the real business problem with custom knife making is that it is not scalable and the business does not acquire capital value either. The craftsman is selling his skills attached to his name: and when he stops work, his business is over and all that is left if the residual value of used machinery. Thus this field presumably attracts people who enjoy making knives, but who are not necessarily interested in making a lot of money.
> 
> Probably cheffing is much the same. Some superstar chefs manage to leverage their brand with multiple restaurants, TV deals, books etc. The vast majority dont though. I see it as quite similar to knife making in that sense.



Don't tell that to Murray Carter . Honestly though...I think it's more scalable than one might think...but on average you're probably right. A maker can always make the choice to do what Murray has. Establish a name, create a small factory environment, and start breaking labor up like the Japanese do...so no one person knows enough to branch off and take your business from you. That's a business that could carry a family name, and have value beyond the bladesmith that started it.



Adrian said:


> Devins post was salutary and his points well made. I respect artisan knife makers for their craft and I admire their skill and artistry when they deliver that craft well. I wish I had that skill but I lack both talent and time sadly. *Despite respecting their skill, in my case I am rarely willing to pay a premium price for a custom product, as for me function (at a given level of excellence) is what I value most. This will be the case for the vast majority of people as, this forum aside, most of the population buy knives as tools of necessity and do not attribute much special value to them.*




What if you could have a knife that outperformed your Japanese knives?...and looked like a million bucks doing it? In addition, the draw most people (outside these forums as you said) have towards customs is to the appearance of the knife. The outstanding performance comes as a complete and often unexpected side benefit to them. One maker I know recently sold a $1350 (LOTS Of options on the knife) 270 gyuto-hiki to a private person in California as a gift to his girlfriend. When asked what she was going to use it for, the gentleman's reply was 'to cut watermelon, she always complains she doesn't have a knife big enough'. No joke. After a small period of getting used to it, it's become the only knife in the house she uses, and the gentleman signed onto the smith's books to get one for himself. 

Again...many people in these forums tend to think of this as being the only world in which custom kitchen knives are popular. It's not. As a matter of fact, surprisingly enough (even to a bladesmith), it's only a smallish facet of their customer base. Perhaps 30%. Chefs from all over the world have never even heard of this place, and yet they are still all over the internet looking for things that catch their attention...and that doesn't even take into account the home users. 

Please do not misunderstand that comment. I'm not belittling the role places like this play in the custom knife world. Places like this one and the people ordering knives on them are INVALUABLE to a smith truly looking to improve his work. This assumes though that he receives HONEST FEEDBACK, both positive and negative, and is REQUIRED to do that work to your satisfaction! The custom kitchen knife world is definitely large beyond these forums...but you guys absolutely have the power to steer it, if you just took advantage of it. If you spend $1k on a 'pretty' custom that won't cut butter, and told the gentleman making it you wanted a knife that could cut butter...TEACH HIM how to make a knife that cuts butter by forcing him to give you what you paid for!! If you do not, the fault is your own. We teach people how to treat us, truly. The more you do this, the more value your purchase money has, and the more value future purchases will have as well...because later you might want a knife that cuts butternut squash, and if he's had enough time in between with other outspoken and educational customers like you, he'll have it down to a science by the time you make your next order.




Adrian said:


> All this said, I am glad that there are people out there who are willing ad able to make custom knives. It adds to the variety available to us and it sustains a craft into the future. Society has lost too many creative skills as so many of us stare at screens, clicking keys or fondling our smartphones. :running:



Me too!!


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## Adrian (Sep 15, 2015)

Cris

I am at work now (it is almost 7am here in the UK) and so will be brief. 

I don't necessarily see Japanese and western knives as having a price relationship, I am simply arguing that the educated or aware buyer is likely to draw value comparisons. Forums such as this one tend to encourage that. if a Shigefusa is aspirational for many, they may perceive little additional value in a US custom at three times the price. In any event, custom knife makers, Murray Carter excepted) seem to operate in a fairly similar price bubble. It makes me think they look at each other and price their wares based on what they perceive as competition. This is appropriate in a commodity market, but artisan knife makers should surely seek more differentiation than that? 

Murray Carter is one of few artisan knife craftsman who has leveraged his name as a brand, with both commercial spin offs and second tier lines. Others have said he was in the right place at the right time and this cannot be replicated now. I don't know. I have met a grand total of three artisan western knife makers in the ten years or so that I have been buying knives of this ilk (and several more Japanese). I have yet to meet a western maker who knows how to run a truly profitable business as well as make knives. Perfectionism costs money and some artisans value their craft (and hence devote time to it) more than the customer does. This reduces profitability.

My point about pricing is simple. I have heard craftsmen in this field and others (guitars) bemoan their long waiting list and the effort required to meet custom orders. Generally they are selling too cheaply but resist testing that by putting prices up to test the market harder. 

As regards my Japanese knives - I would happily buy a knife that out performs them. I am not that bothered by the knives actually - I am just interested in the culture of Japan and this extends across other fields, including especially garden design. Most of my knives I have bought in my various travels in Japan, just because I was interested in the maker or the market. 

I have listened to a few people say "send it back" (a variant on the teach him how to make a knife that cuts butter point you made) - but I doubt I would bother. There are three reasons: there is a limit to how much time I am willing to spend; I have residual concern that the maker is losing money by accommodating my whims (this is irrational but it factors in to dealing with craftsmen, as it can feel a bit exploitative); and finally I can just sell the knife and move on. 

The thread is philosophically interesting as it explores why some people value custom knives so much. There is probably a cultural element as the highly figured damascus (as opposed to basic damascus) and the fetish for fancy handles was almost entirely unknown to me until I happened across this forum. I have never really seen it in Europe and, other than a few fancy show knives in a few shops, very little in Japan. Perhaps it is mainly an American phenomenon. 

Adrian


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## aboynamedsuita (Sep 15, 2015)

I find Japanese vs American pricing comparable.

For a 240ish gyuto-esque knife from a custom maker at say $3.00/mm would be $720USD. I recently ordered (from Japan) a 240mm Honyaki mirror polished gyuto with friction fit saya and standard H&#333; wood handle. The cost excluding the (custom) handle was ¥107,000JPY (roughly $890USD based on the current exchange rate). 

From past readings and lurkings, I know there is a custom maker who can make Honyaki and priced similarly to the former quote, which is much less than the latter. I'm also going to pay ~$200 for a custom handle, whereas I could have gotten some standard upgrade choices with the custom maker (although you could easily go all out with handles for either choice at an additional cost).

When all is considered, I don't the prices aren't unreasonable. If people do find them unreasonable, don't buy them because someone else will; either to use or to admire. I see elements of fit to use and fit to purpose in this regard.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 15, 2015)

Adrian said:


> Cris
> 
> I am at work now (it is almost 7am here in the UK) and so will be brief.
> 
> ...



I understand, and I agree. On the 'send it back' thing...you literally echoed a good friend of mine that I was telling the same thing I said to you last night. He pretty much word for word quoted your response lol...before you said it.



tjangula said:


> I find Japanese vs American pricing comparable.
> 
> For a 240ish gyuto-esque knife from a custom maker at say $3.00/mm would be $720USD. I recently ordered (from Japan) a 240mm Honyaki mirror polished gyuto with friction fit saya and standard H&#333; wood handle. The cost excluding the (custom) handle was ¥107,000JPY (roughly $890USD based on the current exchange rate).
> 
> ...



I know one smith (maybe the same guy?) who's pricing on a 240 honyaki gyuto is $3.50/mm, including a full on custom octagonal wa handle with any of the standard price stabilized burl woods. Add a tooled leather saya and it's $3.90/mm. He's not taking orders anymore, but the pricing was my point. Total with saya and custom wa handle comes to $936. His upgraded handles run $50-$75 for different profiles, and $50-$75 for upgraded materials (the $100 a block plus stuff and exotic spacer materials)...so they'd still fall within your $200 additional mark and be comparable.

I was going to bring up some shelf type honyaki knives I've seen from Japan that were in the $2k range...but I couldn't remember the name, so I didn't.


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## sharptools (Sep 16, 2015)

I think saying "custom" doesn't necessarily equate to performance isn't really the right way to look at it.

What some have an issue with are a couple of things

1. A more expensive knife doesn't necessarily mean better performance.

2. It is perceived that people equate things like F&F to performance.

3. Comparisons seem to be made with the upfront cost of a custom/semi vs stock and any additional time/effort (thinning, rehandling, polishing spine/choil, reprofiling) to the stock knife isn't added back to the upfront cost.

I think that the "custom myth" referred to in this thread really is because of 1. This applies to pretty much all things when generalized. Is an Apple laptop better than a Lenovo? People willing to pay for an Apple laptop and are happy with it and people who don't want to pay for an Apple will be happy with a Lenovo. People probably don't necessarily equate bling and F&F to _performance_ but to _value_ which easily gets generalized into "better". To each group, what they like IS better to them.


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## Canadian (Sep 16, 2015)

Some people value performance. 

Some people value the art & craft. 

Some people value both. 

I am the latter.

I used to own dozens of production knives, most stamped and with high quality steel/heat treats. Absolutely nothing wrong with them and they represent good performance for the money. However, there are aspects of say a custom knife by certain makers that really elevate the knife for me in both use and aesthetics. Seeing as I use my knives I would rather have 1 custom gyuto/chef's that works like an extension of my hand than 5 or 10 mass produced knives. Again, personal preference, but my philosophy has always been quality over quantity. For those who feel the same but are on tight budgets, a mass produced Misono, Masamoto or whatever will do anything you ever need to do in practical terms.


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## Asteger (Sep 16, 2015)

I think there's a bit of vagueness at the centre of the discussion, at least if I look a bit at the recent posts above. Much Bocho, who started this, didn't completely define the discussion as Japanese vs The Rest, but it did take on those tones (including with me) and MB did contribute to this saying, '... too many knife consumers equate fit and finish with performance. There is this myth that because the knife "has a custom handle and is polished all shiny and is photographed well, it must be a good cutter right ... " .. I've personally been underwhelmed with several custom makers (mostly US) that make super pretty and shiny knives that are middle of the road performers or worse. Just because their using gold leaf, Bog oak, ZDP clad in Damascus that are thin behind the edge and thick on the spine'

I guess by definition, 'custom' makers can live anywhere, including Japan. They're merely people who take custom orders. 'Not-custom' doesn't necessarily mean 'mass-produced'


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 16, 2015)

Canadian said:


> Some people value performance.
> 
> Some people value the art & craft.
> 
> ...





Asteger said:


> I think there's a bit of vagueness at the centre of the discussion, at least if I look a bit at the recent posts above. Much Bocho, who started this, didn't completely define the discussion as Japanese vs The Rest, but it did take on those tones (including with me) and MB did contribute to this saying, '... too many knife consumers equate fit and finish with performance. There is this myth that because the knife "has a custom handle and is polished all shiny and is photographed well, it must be a good cutter right ... " .. I've personally been underwhelmed with several custom makers (mostly US) that make super pretty and shiny knives that are middle of the road performers or worse. Just because their using gold leaf, Bog oak, ZDP clad in Damascus that are thin behind the edge and thick on the spine'
> 
> I guess by definition, 'custom' makers can live anywhere, including Japan. They're merely people who take custom orders. 'Not-custom' doesn't necessarily mean 'mass-produced'



These are interesting points. Both of them. I think the frustration for me lies in the very generalized implication in this thread (as well as on the forum in general for the most part) that expensive high end custom knives...particularly those of US origin, but including other countries of origin as well...can't be or aren't high performance knives also. I would love to hear Anton's more 'in depth' thoughts on how the US and Australian knives he mentioned compare...without going into who the makers are. I think it's best if we keep that aspect of the conversation very general.

I know many of the well known and sought after US makers of the level we're discussing here don't make high performance knives...but that is not the case across the board by any stretch. Though I have never handled one, my understanding is that Devin's knives alone prove that.


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## WildBoar (Sep 16, 2015)

Funny thing is people on the forums have been complaining about several Japanese makers whose 'stock' knives have issues such as overgrinds, too thick behind edge, etc. And many have mentioned buying through Jon or Maxsim, as they will 'screen' the knives before sending to 'make sure you get a good one'. So why is that needed if the production knives are okay? To me that says you may just wind up with a production knife that has issues you still need to deal with. Some issues may effect it being a superior cutter; heck, the production Hiromotos I have stunk out of the box, and needed good workovers by Dave Martell before they even equaled a Shun gyuto. And some issues -- like overgrinds -- may mean while it cuts well now it will be useless a year or two down the road. I personally think many stock/ production Japanese knives will be great performers, but expect to get frustrated with some of them due to the production issues.


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## chefcomesback (Sep 16, 2015)

WildBoar said:


> Funny thing is people on the forums have been complaining about several Japanese makers whose 'stock' knives have issues such as overgrinds, too thick behind edge, etc. And many have mentioned buying through Jon or Maxsim, as they will 'screen' the knives before sending to 'make sure you get a good one'. So why is that needed if the production knives are okay? To me that says you may just wind up with a production knife that has issues you still need to deal with. Some issues may effect it being a superior cutter; heck, the production Hiromotos I have stunk out of the box, and needed good workovers by Dave Martell before they even equaled a Shun gyuto. And some issues -- like overgrinds -- may mean while it cuts well now it will be useless a year or two down the road. I personally think many stock/ production Japanese knives will be great performers, but expect to get frustrated with some of them due to the production issues.



Good that you mentioned this because a $400+ gyuto from a japanese maker ( well regarded and seems to be the favorite of some people here ) was THE WORST KNIFE I HAVE USED , period . But again people tend oversee things if it has a history behind the product same way people don't complain about the mediocre performance they get from some customs out there


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## Smurfmacaw (Sep 17, 2015)

Lucretia said:


> "Custom knives suck! My off the shelf knives are so much better! American makers only make pretty handles! And it makes me SOOOOOOO mad that I can't have one because all the richers have driven the prices up!"
> 
> The food is terrible and the portions are small.



+1 We are lucky the good custom makers don't charge more for their efforts. Most of the nicer knives I see last mere minutes before being sold. Seriously, if someone doesn't think a knife is worth it then don't buy it and don't beech.


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## mkriggen (Sep 17, 2015)

I probably should stay out of this, but making custom handles for the last couple of years has made me appreciate how reasonable the prices are from the quality custom knife makers. Many people probably don't understand why a custom handle should cost $200, and they would be correct. A handle I sell for $200 should actually cost about $400 if I were to account for all the time. But nobody would pay that much, so I charge $200 and just hope to make enough to buy some more cool materials. I don't think any of the custom handle makers actually make a profit, and I know none of them make a living doing it. I'm guessing the situation is similar, but an order of magnitude larger, for most of the custom knife makers. And no, a custom ordered Shig is NOT the same thing as a custom made knife from DT, Cris, Randy, Rader, or any of the other quality makers. A custom ordered Shig may have a different length or altered profile or whatever, but it's still just a variation of a Shig. A custom knife from one of the quality custom makers is just that, a custom knife. Hope this makes some kind of sense.

Be well,
Mikey


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## Von blewitt (Sep 17, 2015)

Here's my most recent expierience with a US custom knife maker.
Last Friday night my time I emailed the maker asking if it might be possible to order a birds beak turning knife, when I woke up Saturday morning I had not only an answer in my inbox, but also a roughed out sketch on a knife blank with options for either 2.5 or 3 Inch.
Back and fourth emails throughout the week including me changing my mind about the length, and selecting handle material.
This morning I recieved a picture of the completed knife, less than 1 week from my first email, and I know from personal expierience with multiple knives from this maker it'll be a solid performer.
Pics in the new knife thread when I recieve it.


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 18, 2015)

mkriggen said:


> I probably should stay out of this, but making custom handles for the last couple of years has made me appreciate how reasonable the prices are from the quality custom knife makers. Many people probably don't understand why a custom handle should cost $200, and they would be correct. A handle I sell for $200 should actually cost about $400 if I were to account for all the time. But nobody would pay that much, so I charge $200 and just hope to make enough to buy some more cool materials. I don't think any of the custom handle makers actually make a profit, and I know none of them make a living doing it. I'm guessing the situation is similar, but an order of magnitude larger, for most of the custom knife makers. And no, a custom ordered Shig is NOT the same thing as a custom made knife from DT, Cris, Randy, Rader, or any of the other quality makers. A custom ordered Shig may have a different length or altered profile or whatever, but it's still just a variation of a Shig. A custom knife from one of the quality custom makers is just that, a custom knife. Hope this makes some kind of sense.
> 
> Be well,
> Mikey



Yep some people just like working with their hands and making cool stuff. :bladesmith: 

I can't see picking on knife makers most hard to make a living doing it. Branding is the way to make money. Celebrities with their own lines made in China only their name rolling in the $$. Disney realized this early on made many fortunes on branding even though didn't make the stuff.


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## Asteger (Sep 19, 2015)

keithsaltydog said:


> Yep some people just like working with their hands and making cool stuff. :bladesmith:



Very true, and thanks for that.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 19, 2015)

keithsaltydog said:


> Yep some people just like working with their hands and making cool stuff. :bladesmith:



I feel the same about you guys making amazing food with these tools as well :cheffry:!


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## mkriggen (Sep 20, 2015)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> I feel the same about you guys making amazing food with these tools as well :cheffry:!



Oh Hell yeah! Staying on topic, that's one of the great things about quality custom chef knives...you're expected to USE them! A custom hunting/camping knife will get used a couple of times a year at best and a custom tactical knife will probably never get used. A quality custom chef knife may be used everyday and the expected performance is far above any outdoor or tactical knife. I've seen a lot of comments that a chef knife is a tool, and I agree 100%, but what's wrong with having really cool tools?


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## coexist44 (Oct 6, 2015)

mkriggen said:


> Oh Hell yeah! Staying on topic, that's one of the great things about quality custom chef knives...you're expected to USE them! A custom hunting/camping knife will get used a couple of times a year at best and a custom tactical knife will probably never get used. A quality custom chef knife may be used everyday and the expected performance is far above any outdoor or tactical knife. I've seen a lot of comments that a chef knife is a tool, and I agree 100%, but what's wrong with having really cool tools?



Oh man...ya nailed it . I'm a pro cook, I work full time and attend culinary school full time. These knives that knife makers forge for me are tools that I use for 18+ hours a day. They are in my hand more than anything else. Actually hung out with a new friend of mine from work recently, he said it was really weird I wasn't brandishing a razor sharp chef knife. He actually viewed my knives as a part of my arm, as hilarious as that sounds. Like there was something actually missing from my body because I wasn't in the kitchen. To me, buying a chef knife is akin to getting a tattoo or a brand. When I entrust a custom knife maker with the task of making me one of my alternating arm attachments, it is mostly because, in my experience with custom makers thus far, they take their craft as seriously as I take mine. I feel like that kind of security is worth the money, and is ultimately reflected in the performance and quality of the knife. And, like mikey stated, if they also happen to look really cool....I mean....I guess that just means i'll have badass lookin' arms.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 6, 2015)

irate2:


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## CrisAnderson27 (Oct 6, 2015)

coexist44 said:


> Oh man...ya nailed it . I'm a pro cook, I work full time and attend culinary school full time. These knives that knife makers forge for me are tools that I use for 18+ hours a day. They are in my hand more than anything else. Actually hung out with a new friend of mine from work recently, he said it was really weird I wasn't brandishing a razor sharp chef knife. He actually viewed my knives as a part of my arm, as hilarious as that sounds. Like there was something actually missing from my body because I wasn't in the kitchen. To me, buying a chef knife is akin to getting a tattoo or a brand. When I entrust a custom knife maker with the task of making me one of my alternating arm attachments, it is mostly because, in my experience with custom makers thus far, they take their craft as seriously as I take mine. I feel like that kind of security is worth the money, and is ultimately reflected in the performance and quality of the knife. And, like mikey stated, if they also happen to look really cool....I mean....I guess that just means i'll have badass lookin' arms.



Love this, lol!


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## mlau (Oct 30, 2015)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> Love this, lol!



I second!


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