# Coarse stone for thinning



## Garm (Jun 15, 2017)

Hi everyone!

As the title says I'm considering my options for a coarse stone to be used for thinning, both monosteel stainless and clad carbon knives.
My coarsest stone is the JNS 300. I really like this stone, both in terms of feel and finish, but it's just too slow for doing serious thinning IMO.
I have used my Atoma 140 a little, but I just hate the feeling of grinding steel on diamonds. 

I also tried out an Ohishi 220 stone, but no matter how long I soaked it the surface would dry out completely in just a few seconds. 

Just to be clear, I have no illusions about a coarse stone in the 150-250 grit range feeling good or retaining moisture on the surface the way a finer stone would, but i'm hoping there are some better alternatives out there. 

So to sum up, I'm looking for a coarse stone for some heavy lifting that cuts notably faster than the JNS 300 and that will keep lubricated for more than a handful of sharpening strokes. 
I'm fine with both soaking stones and S&G, and would prefer something that is neither extremely hard nor extremely soft. 

Some stones I have considered are:
-Imanishi/Bester pink brick
-JKI 220 stone
-Watanabe AI 220
-Sigma Power select II 240
-Lobster(Naniwa?) GC stones, there are several of them I think

Any experiences and opinions about these or other coarse stones you guys prefer are greatly appreciated

Thanks!


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jun 15, 2017)

Have you considered a 1" x 30" belt grinder from Harbor Freight?


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## Matus (Jun 15, 2017)

All 220 pink stones (Gesshin Bester, Naniwa, Watanabe, etc.) will be similar - some softer, some harder, but similar (most likely they are all made by the same company). I have Bester 220. This stone really is extremely thirsty - basically the water flows through it. To solve the problem with the endless thirst I have lacquered all sides and bottom of the stone. Problem solved. You can use any lacquer that after curing is water resistent. Once you lacquer the stone you want to permasoak it, as once lacquered it will take forever to dry.


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## labor of love (Jun 15, 2017)

I really enjoyed my sigma power 240, unfortunately it's almost completely worn down(maybe 5mm remain) it cuts fast and believe it it or not I can actually work up a little mud on it which helps a lot. I'd order another if tools from Japan wasn't such a hassle to deal with. I'll prob grab a pink brick from someone as a replacement when the time comes.


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## Ruso (Jun 15, 2017)

I am not fond of a pink brick. It disappears in a bliss but it does not feel like a lot of steel was removed. 
For coarse thinning I really prefer Norton Coarse India (has it flaws tho) and for less coarse Shapton Pro 220 is doing an okay job. 

@labor, what hassle did you experience? I ordered once from that site and did not have any issues. Sigma might be interesting to try.


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## labor of love (Jun 15, 2017)

Ruso said:


> I am not fond of a pink brick. It disappears in a bliss but it does not feel like a lot of steel was removed.
> For coarse thinning I really prefer Norton Coarse India (has it flaws tho) and for less coarse Shapton Pro 220 is doing an okay job.
> 
> @labor, what hassle did you experience? I ordered once from that site and did not have any issues. Sigma might be interesting to try.



He took a real long time to get my order in the mail. Like, the order took a month or so to process with no explanation given. His products and prices are very nice I may give him a second chance, but I had a bad first impression. I wouldn't be surprised if it was an isolated incident.


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## malexthekid (Jun 15, 2017)

I just ordered a couple of the sigma power #120 from him. 

Will report back on time to post.


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## labor of love (Jun 15, 2017)

Yeah, please let me know. I would love to replace my 240 grit and try that legendary 1200 grit.



malexthekid said:


> I just ordered a couple of the sigma power #120 from him.
> 
> Will report back on time to post.


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## zetieum (Jun 15, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Yeah, please let me know. I would love to replace my 240 grit and try that legendary 1200 grit.



+1


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## Badgertooth (Jun 16, 2017)

Subscribed. Got a Naniwa superstone 220 which does a job but not hasn't got enough weight to stay put in one place


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## tsuriru (Jun 16, 2017)

I have had good results using the Naniwa 220 as a coarse slurry stone over slate. Material consumption is not an issue because I use the entire stone until there is nothing left, and the abrasive qualities of the Naniwa 220 are all I need to get the job done.


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## mikaelsan (Jun 16, 2017)

Does that not put a fair amount of wear on the slate stone?


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## Garm (Jun 16, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies and input guys!

@Matus: Thats not a bad idea with the lacquer coating.

I have seen some youtube videos of people using the pink brick and there it seems to keep lubricated on the surface for a decent amount of time if you keep the motions going. But these could be slightly different versions of a pink brick and perhaps behave a little differently? 
When you call it very thirsty, how often do you feel you have to add water? Does it keep moist long enough for mud to develop for example? 
Ive never managed this with the Ohishi. I was just left with dry dust on the surface after ten seconds and a sound that made me cringe.. I couldnt seem to keep the mud «alive» no matter how quickly I added water.

@labor of love: The Sigma is intriguing. Very fast from what I hear, but I havent found too much info about it on the forums.
Do you find it extremely thirsty as well? From what I understand this stone has no binder material. I wouldnt mind a little dishing if its fast and doesnt need non-stop watering.

@Badgertooth: Thanks for the tip. I hadnt even considered the superstone. Is that the one thats called specialty stone now?
Hows the cutting speed on this one?

@Ruso: I have tried the Shapton pro 320 briefly and I tend to prefer stones that are a little softer than this.
I dont know how the 220 compares to the 320 in this regard?

Thanks again everyone!


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## tsuriru (Jun 16, 2017)

mikaelsan said:


> Does that not put a fair amount of wear on the slate stone?



Sure it does. But slate is relatively replaceable and very cheep.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jun 16, 2017)

Look into the King Deluxe 300 from Stu. Its not a particularly enjoyable stone to use but it thins quickly with nice scratch pattern and decent feedback and is splash go. Very large size, stays flat and doesn't clog even with stainless cladding.

For some reason it doesn't get a lot of love on the forum, but I think that's because its new.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1669


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## malexthekid (Jun 16, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Yeah, please let me know. I would love to replace my 240 grit and try that legendary 1200 grit.



No problem... if you don't hear from me for a week or two... I'm still here, just waiting. haha


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## uc357 (Jun 19, 2017)

@labor of love: The Sigma is intriguing. Very fast from what I hear, but I havent found too much info about it on the forums.
Do you find it extremely thirsty as well? From what I understand this stone has no binder material. I wouldnt mind a little dishing if its fast and doesnt need non-stop watering.

I also have a Sigma Select II 240 that I have used to thin 4 knives and still have 40% of the stone left.
It cuts quite aggressively and does not dish nearly as fast as the crappy King stone I started with. I will probablt
buy another one when I wear this one away.
Sealing the bottom and sides as per Matus previous post would be a great idea.
Lee Valley Tools have them in stock both in Canada and USA.


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## labor of love (Jun 19, 2017)

Sigma select 240 is the stone I was referring to, http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=67089&cat=1. I don't see it available on the toolfj site but maybe I overlooked it. For its grit I don't think it's nearly as thirsty as the competitors(although king deluxe 300 and cerax 320 are less thirsty). It's the least PITA sub 300 grit stone I've used. But honestly I would only use something like that for repairs or thinning a knife that's been neglected for sometime. For maintaining geometry I'd easily prefer a cerax or one of jons low grits.


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## zetieum (Jun 19, 2017)

I use an atoma 400. At least, it does not dish, it stays flat. But the sensation if not great at all. I am looking for smth else. It is too slow. Atoma 180 is not cheap.


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## Choppin (Jun 19, 2017)

Sorry if I'm getting off topic here... the OP is looking for a stone for "serious thinning", but what do you guys use for "light/regular thinning"? I mean, sharpening the whole bevel to avoid getting thick behind the edge, not trying to significantly alter blade grind or thickness. I was thinking something in the 400 grit range.

Thank's


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## labor of love (Jun 19, 2017)

Choppin said:


> Sorry if I'm getting off topic here... the OP is looking for a stone for "serious thinning", but what do you guys use for "light/regular thinning"? I mean, sharpening the whole bevel to avoid getting thick behind the edge, not trying to significantly alter blade grind or thickness. I was think I'm ing something in the 400 grit range.
> 
> Thank's


Yep. I like my worn down gesh 400, haven't tried the new gesh 400 yet. But yeah, something that doesn't make deep scratches-that can be covered up easily.


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## uc357 (Jun 19, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Sigma select 240 is the stone I was referring to, http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=67089&cat=1. I don't see it available on the toolfj site but maybe I overlooked it. For its grit I don't think it's nearly as thirsty as the competitors(although king deluxe 300 and cerax 320 are less thirsty). It's the least PITA sub 300 grit stone I've used. But honestly I would only use something like that for repairs or thinning a knife that's been neglected for sometime. For maintaining geometry I'd easily prefer a cerax or one of jons low grits.



Sorry I thought you were referring to the Sigma Select II.


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## fatboylim (Jun 19, 2017)

This may sound cheap, but I use my Naniwa 220 lapping stone (the one with the ripple). I flipped it over onto the flat side for repair work and it works quickly. After progression to 600,800,1200 there are limited issues with scratch marks. I even used the side of the lapping stone to reshape the curve/belly of a cleaver. 

Cheap, relatively fast and effective.


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## Choppin (Jun 19, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Yep. I like my worn down gesh 400, haven't tried the new gesh 400 yet. But yeah, something that doesn't make deep scratches-that can be covered up easily.



Thank's. I actually just got a Gesshin 400, used it yesterday on some stainless knives. I liked it a lot, great feedback, cuts fast and reasonably muddy.


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## Garm (Jun 20, 2017)

It sounds like the Sigma may be a good option indeed. Thanks for the additional opinions.
This stone is meant for more serious thinning, tip repair etc, and not for more regular maintenance.

I don't think Stu has had this stone in stock for a while, but I've found a German vendor who has it.
He also stocks some of the other options discussed here, and I'll get his opinion as well before making a final decision.

It's been real helpful getting feedback here, so thanks again!

Edit: I live in Norway btw, which is why some US stores suggested here aren't the best option.
Should probably add location to my profile..


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## Nemo (Jun 20, 2017)

I haven't used it, but I seem to recall a lot of positive feedback about the Watanabe AI 220, especially as relates to its speed.


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## rick alen (Jun 21, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Have you considered a 1" x 30" belt grinder from Harbor Freight?



I wonder if the 1x30 would outlast the very cheaply made 4x36, which with a little luck it will outlast a pink brick. You will have to buy decent belts for it. Clever apartment dwellers should be able to build a self-stowing cabinet and effective vacuum cleaner setup for it


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## Matus (Jun 22, 2017)

A small grinder would be much faster than a stone, but it will take a long learning curve to get to such a level of precision, so that after thining the bevel is clean and flat witout over-grinds. And one must be very careful not to overheat the blade.


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## rick alen (Jun 22, 2017)

You really should go on ebay and by an AC speed control if you go with the sander, they're cheap.


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## malexthekid (Jun 29, 2017)

Thought I would give a quick update for those interested on Tools from Japan.

Got and email from Stu today, stones have shipped (2 weeks and 2 days after ordered.) Has upgraded the shipping to account for the delay. Should reach Aus in 6 to 10 business days... oh the joys of Australia Post. Haha


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## Doug8066 (Jun 30, 2017)

I suggest, do what I did - follow the advice of the expert. 
Dave Martell advised using a DMT 120 Extra coarse diamond plate.
That's what I use now - it really rips the metal away, better than the pink brick (which I also own).
After the DMT 120, a really good stone to remove the scratch marks is the Bester 700. Then you progress to the "normal" stones. The Bester is good value, Dave Martell reckons the DMT 120 and the Bester 700 should be sold together. I use them together myself.


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## fatboylim (Jul 3, 2017)

I can find a sigma power 220 only... Not the 240.


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## foody518 (Jul 3, 2017)

^ yes they are different. I think toolsfromjapan and Lee Valley have some description about what the Select II line was designed to do


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## fatboylim (Jul 3, 2017)

foody518 said:


> ^ yes they are different. I think toolsfromjapan and Lee Valley have some description about what the Select II line was designed to do



Oh cool thank you! I'm looking for a 400 grit stone and would go JKI if I were in the US...


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## rick alen (Jul 3, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Thought I would give a quick update for those interested on Tools from Japan.
> 
> Should reach Aus in 6 to 10 business days... oh the joys of Australia Post. Haha



I had a small mailorder business for a few years. Australia was the absolute worst for lost packages, at 5 out of 10. Nor would the post make good on the insurance claims.


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## malexthekid (Jul 3, 2017)

rick alen said:


> I had a small mailorder business for a few years. Australia was the absolute worst for lost packages, at 5 out of 10. Nor would the post make good on the insurance claims.



They are pricks here. Slow as anything and charge a fortune. Costs me almost as much to get something shipped from the US as it does to send something to say Mert who is a 5 hour drive away


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## JBroida (Jul 3, 2017)

rick alen said:


> I had a small mailorder business for a few years. Australia was the absolute worst for lost packages, at 5 out of 10. Nor would the post make good on the insurance claims.



Yeah... i had a ton of problems with AUS post, and it was a big reason we switched to only DHL. They once delivered a package to the wrong person, in the wrong town, in the wrong state and told me they didnt do anything wrong, even after providing me the info in their report and assesment on how and where it was delivered. Even the name of the person that recieved it wasnt correct.


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## foody518 (Jul 3, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Oh cool thank you! I'm looking for a 400 grit stone and would go JKI if I were in the US...



Check out the Sigma 400 or also in the past there's been some stuff written about the King 300 in these forums


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## malexthekid (Jul 5, 2017)

Stones arrived from Stu today. Only had a quick look at them.. but on first pass they look damn aggressive. Slightly scared now to take them to my cleaver that needs thinning (it was a gift). But it needs some significant thinning to be a joy to use.


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## foody518 (Jul 5, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Stones arrived from Stu today. Only had a quick look at them.. but on first pass they look damn aggressive. Slightly scared now to take them to my cleaver that needs thinning (it was a gift). But it needs some significant thinning to be a joy to use.



You got the 120 grit right? Watch your hands when thinning... That super low grit stuff will scratch your skin up if you accidentally scuff against the stone


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## malexthekid (Jul 5, 2017)

I did thanks for the advice


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