# Whimsical nature of Chemistry and the physicality, process and preparation of food or PPPF



## DDPslice (Nov 17, 2014)

It has become more and more apparent that lots of people have misconceptions, misconstrued, or disbelieving views in the whimsical nature of Chemistry and the physicality, process and preparation of food or PPPF. I'd like to make this thread about the introduction, debate and general discussion about manipulation of food and how it can be effected or changed through preparation, cooking, storing or anything in between.

Sources are need to counter a point/opinion. Personal experience and wisdom is not _shun_ned but Existence of God is not a solid fact.

For my first trick I want to talk about brine. What is its process? What is actually happening? How will it effect certain meats in certain preparations.
What is the optimal brine solution, for how long, for which meats, how many hours/days.

Personal Question: Should I brine meat that is about to be made into beef jerky? Or marinade?

To start:
Brining makes cooked meat moist by hydrating the cells of its muscle tissue before cooking, via the process of osmosis, and by allowing the cells to hold on to the water while they are cooked, via the process of denaturation.[2] The brine surrounding the cells has a higher concentration of salt than the fluid within the cells, but the cell fluid has a higher concentration of other solutes.[2] This leads salt ions to diffuse into the cell, whilst the solutes in the cells cannot diffuse through the cell membranes into the brine. The increased salinity of the cell fluid causes the cell to absorb water from the brine via osmosis.[2] The salt introduced into the cell also denatures its proteins.[2] The proteins coagulate, forming a matrix that traps water molecules and holds them during cooking. This prevents the meat from dehydrating. - wiki

Now lets take into consideration:
1)A Normal Saline solution is at 0.9% NaCl, which is the adequate hydration for the body. 

2) A brine solution is at >5%

3) How does salt travel via osmosis (to a less saltier thing, when osmosis is literally the travel of only water from a less saltier solution to a more saltier solution which is dehydrating the less salty meat) through an only water permeable membrane?

How is the salt magically traveling through and inactive NaCl pump in an dead slab of muscle, how do you know the concentration of salts within the cells to determine which is the more isotonic? (taste it) HOW are denaturing proteins, (where denaturing is the process of the wound proteins unwinding breaking down into the sum of its parts) somehow creating a matrix trapping within the protein when the water is moving away and not toward the protein. Coagulation requires more then just a salt solution and is usually helped by decreasing temperature and agitation (beating eggs and sugar or cream and sugar, but what happens when you beat eggs and salt?)

so brine water is clearly the more isotonic solution, than LIVING muscle mass in Humans. (The reason why i bring up the "living" and "human" parts is because first living cells are a more abundant in nutrients such as salts then the dead. 2 humans have much saltier diets than our other mammalian friends. So our poultry and beef and swine are typically a less saltier composition then that of 5% making the salt water the more saltier solution. 

So how does brine work? It works because the salt water initially dehydrates the cells thus making space once the entirety of the solution equalizes with the meat, then salt water is trapped within the crevices of the meat and is sealed when the use of flash heat is used to sear and inflame thus sealing the meat from letting the brine out.


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## DDPslice (Nov 17, 2014)

how osmosis works https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25c2ZHZmhELXFBaHRRUDA1c0V1Z0dZVDZQakhn/view

what is normal saline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saline_(medicine)

wiki brine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brine

wiki brining http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brining


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## Zwiefel (Nov 17, 2014)

DDPslice said:


> the meat and is sealed when the use of flash heat is used to sear and inflame thus sealing the meat from letting the brine out.



This has been pretty well de-bunked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searing


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## Korin_Mari (Nov 18, 2014)

Thank you for sharing.  It's good to know, especially with the holidays coming up.


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## Zwiefel (Nov 18, 2014)

DDPslice said:


> how osmosis works https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25c2ZHZmhELXFBaHRRUDA1c0V1Z0dZVDZQakhn/view
> 
> what is normal saline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saline_(medicine)
> 
> ...




It's going to take me a few days to find time to sit down and give this content my full attention...I'm looking forward to it, thanks for the links!


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## James (Nov 18, 2014)

http://www.seriouseats.com/2012/11/...about-brining-turkey-thanksgiving.html#flavor

TLDR version - Osmosis isn't responsible for the juiciness, rather myosin (very important muscle protein) breakdown/dissolution.


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## Zwiefel (Nov 18, 2014)

James said:


> TLDR? Whazzatiz?


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## James (Nov 18, 2014)

haha tldr = too long, didn't read


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## Zwiefel (Nov 18, 2014)

James said:


> haha tldr = too long, didn't read



HA! well, I'll take up that mantle...soon....ish.


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## Zwiefel (Nov 18, 2014)

DDPslice said:


> how osmosis works https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25c2ZHZmhELXFBaHRRUDA1c0V1Z0dZVDZQakhn/view
> 
> what is normal saline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saline_(medicine)
> 
> ...




OK, had some time to dig through this. Unfortunately, while there are some good bits here and there, there are also some consistency issues. The google drive doc says that water migrates to the high-solute side of the membranes, but that the salt doesn't migrate to the low-solute side of the membrane. Meanwhile the wiki materials state that both happens. Perhaps there is a very narrow context for the material in the google doc while wikipedia is talking specifically about the treatment of food? Not sure how to resolve that apparent contradiction. 

I found The brining doc to be quite interesting, as well as this salting doc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salting_(food)


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## Zwiefel (Nov 18, 2014)

James said:


> http://www.seriouseats.com/2012/11/...about-brining-turkey-thanksgiving.html#flavor
> 
> TLDR version - Osmosis isn't responsible for the juiciness, rather myosin (very important muscle protein) breakdown/dissolution.



Had a chance to read this one in detail. Unfortunately, I found some apparent issues with it as well. Firstly, the article merely asserts--without adequate explanation or evidence--that brining does not involve osmosis. Which seems like quite a bold claim given some basic knowledge of chemistry/biology and a rather large number of SMEs in those fields describing brining as being--at least partly--osmosis.

The section on the denaturing of the proteins was quite interesting though. It would seem that does in fact play an important role (much as the OP pointed out). 

The most questionable thing I noticed in the article is the assertion that brining makes meat taste watery b/c of the volume of water absorbed by the meat (the claim is that the moisture loss of the cooked meat is about 30-40% less than unbrined). Then there is a claim that salting the meat allows for the same denaturing, salt absorbtion, and moisture retention w/o the watery flavor. However, according to their own data in this chart:







The difference in final weight between the salted and brined breasts is a seemingly trivial <=1%. An average chicken breast weighs 6-8 oz. 1% of that is 1.7-2.26 GRAMS of water. That is about the weight of a paper clip. I have difficulty swallowing that a difference of that scale is the difference between "juicy and well-seasoned" and "wet-sponge syndrome." I sense confirmation bias due to testing protocol.

Not really sure where this leaves things in terms of an authoritative explanation of brining. However, I do think this article makes a good case for salting vs brining on the simple basis of logistics. No need to have a big tub of water to get the same effect, and also have only 1 technique whether it's pork, poultry, beef, etc.

[EDIT]
Some of the issues I mentioned around the claim that brining does not involve osmosis are partially addressed in this, more in-depth article:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2009/11/the-food-lab-turkey-brining-basics.html

Still, the author fails to take into account that salt will cross the cell membrane, creating osmotic pressure that draws water into the cell. (this in addition to the mechanisms the author does cover, related to the myosin denaturing.)


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## James (Nov 18, 2014)

Salt concentrations in the cytosol and extracellular fluid should be on the order of 200-300 mM while the concentration of a typical brining solution (let's say 6% because that's what's cited in the article) is a little bit over 1M. This would suggest that water leaves the cells at the same time salt is entering. 

The cell membrane is permeable to water; salt and water would pass through in opposite directions until they reach an equilibrium state.


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## James (Nov 18, 2014)

Here's another article from Harold McGee - http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/dining/12curi.html

The relevant section - "The main driving force is osmosis, the natural shifting around of water and substances dissolved in it so as to even out any imbalances in their distribution. Meat contains a lot of water and very little salt. When we first immerse it in salty brine, salt moves from the brine into the meat, and water from the meat into the brine. The meat becomes saltier and drier.

But then the salt begins to modify the meat. The sodium attaches to the long, intertwined muscle proteins and causes the proteins to push apart from one another. This makes room for more water, and salt, and weakens the muscle fibers. The water flow reverses, so that water and more salt move from the brine into the meat."

I'd love more details about the change in protein structure making more room for water and salt. I don't quite understand what forces are governing the flow reversal.


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## Zwiefel (Nov 18, 2014)

James said:


> Here's another article from Harold McGee - http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/dining/12curi.html
> 
> The relevant section - "The main driving force is osmosis, the natural shifting around of water and substances dissolved in it so as to even out any imbalances in their distribution. Meat contains a lot of water and very little salt. When we first immerse it in salty brine, salt moves from the brine into the meat, and water from the meat into the brine. The meat becomes saltier and drier.
> 
> ...



I did find this article after my post. Given Mr. McGee's background and how well everything in this article aligns with all of the facts as I understand them, this is what I'm considering definitive. Until new evidence arrives


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## Mrmnms (Nov 19, 2014)

A question was posed as to whether you should brine or marinade meat for jerky. If you were serious, I would encourage you to dry rub or marinade for flavor. Since you will be removing most of the water in the process of drying the jerky, you will be left with some very salty jerky. Unless of course that's your goal. The South African have it down in my opinion . Check out some recipes for biltong. Vinegar soaked, seasoned and dried. I like what brining does for a pork loin roast, and it's not bad for chicken and turkey, but if I plan on using the pan juices after roasting, I don't brine. Another reason not to entertain the idea of brining beef before making pot roast. Too much salt. But what do I know?


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## DDPslice (Nov 19, 2014)

As much as I found Mr. McGee and inspiration, the ScienOe isR RsimplY wrong. (If you look at my link or simply google the definition of osmosis. Only water can act under osmosis, salt cannot pass through a cell membrane unabated unless by the help of a protein within the cell wall ( and i dont know how this would work unless you're brining a zombie filet). I think i should correct my original statement, its not only the fluid content within the cells that's giving the juiciness but the ability for the blood vessels to retake up fluids. In the blood vessels and the crevices that hold the salt. 

Mr. M, ill prob go with a vinegar base thanks for the advice.


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## James (Nov 19, 2014)

Yes, you're right. Osmosis is a very specific term for the diffusion of water. Ions can pass through membranes via ion channels; however, I believe most are voltage gated or acetylcholine dependent in muscle cells. Having majored in biochemistry at a fairly good university, I think it's safe to say that biology is very complicated and things get much more complicated when something is wrong with the physiology (in this case, the animal has been dead for quite some time). Who knows? Perhaps the plasma membranes have become a little bit leaky post mortem.

This has been a cool discussion. I might give it some more thought in the future after I get through my finals.


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## DDPslice (Dec 14, 2014)

This is a good site that gives a thorough explanation.

http://www.edinformatics.com/math_science/science_of_cooking/brining.htm


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## DDPslice (Dec 14, 2015)

Having a Safer Kitchen

A lot has led up to this, and all have suggested something analogous of using a non kitchen item in/on the kitchen for multiple purposes. 


My own query: using a paper towel (bounty in this case) as a filter (for tea/stocks/broths, etc.).
Is it food safe? http://www.debralynndadd.com/q-a/formaldehyde-in-paper-towels-and-other-paper-products/
She says it's not food safe but has literally no claims to back up, besides saying; 'big words scare me'. Also formaldehyde is very volatile (will evaporate quickly) so her concerns don't raise mine. But it did beg the question; if I am using as a sieve or bullion strainer will the hot liquids melt the resins/polymers (and/or) are those resins harmful? I will be doing my own research, but as always, I would love to hear facts/opinions of you ladies and gents on using paper towels for other means.


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## Zwiefel (Dec 14, 2015)

DDPslice said:


> Having a Safer Kitchen
> 
> A lot has led up to this, and all have suggested something analogous of using a non kitchen item in/on the kitchen for multiple purposes.
> 
> ...



I don't have anything like a complete answer to this question, but I do know that paper products like this are bleached white, which leaves behind dioxins. As to whether/how those dioxins would end up in your body and whether the concentrations are high enough to have any relevance, I have no clue.


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