# Monosteel Whites..



## masibu (Sep 14, 2013)

Hey, I've been looking around at several different knives lately and I'm pretty interested in finding a 270mm gyuto in white steel. I have been using a hiromoto AS and have been really happy with it although the cladding seems to dampen the feeling a little so I want to try carbon steel without cladding. I've looked at Tadatsuna, Konosuke, Sakai Yusuke and Masamoto KS as they are all unclad, mono-steel white #2. However, I figure if I'm going to try white steel, I really want to go all out with White #1 to see how stunning an edge I can make..

I've looked around a little bit, but I'd like some information on whether such a knife exists or whether I need to be looking for honyaki white #1 (expensive?). I would also like some information on the differences in White #2 monosteels used by Tadatsuna, Konosuke, Sakai Yusuke and Masamoto so if I can't get my hands on a pure White #1 I can at least play around with White #2..

Cheers in advance


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 14, 2013)

Tadatsuna, Yusuke and Konosuke are all Sakai knives, have somewhat similar profiles and are all "lasers". Consider also Gesshin Ginga. All are stated ~61 HRC.

Masamoto has a different profile - flatter, lower-tipped with a spear point, less useful for rocking but preferred by many for push cutting. The 240 is slightly longer than the Sakai knives.

Not sure I've ever seen a monosteel (zen-ko) white #1, or even a honyaki gyuto (yanagiba, yes).


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## masibu (Sep 14, 2013)

Hmm.. thanks. I'm guessing its harder to work with white #1 than #2? Forgot to mention I'm chasing a 150mm petty and I live in Australia so shipping is usually delightfully expensive. I have a Sakai Yusuke suji coming in the mail soon to give me an idea of how white #2 feels in case I fail in my quest for white #1. Yusuke seems to be the cheaper option of the sakai knives although that KS profile suits me a whole lot better for a gyuto. Ah.. I'm so addicted to this stuff now. I've been researching stones and knives on and off for months


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 14, 2013)

My thinking is that a gyuto is somewhat all-purpose, and a super-hard white #1 (highest carbon/greatest hardenability/least toughness) would be too brittle. Hence why most white honyaki are #2 and occasionally are #3, which offer better toughness. Of course this could be nonsense. You could always ask Jon Broida at JKI if you are really invested in finding a white #1 mono, of anyone he will know.


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## bahamaroot (Sep 14, 2013)

There is a Masamoto KS in B/S/T that is a steal for $290 http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/14293-Masamoto-KS-240-Gyuto-New


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## JBroida (Sep 14, 2013)

its not that people cant make this kind of thing... its just not a good fit for the type of construction in a double bevel knife. There are some who make them, but they have to adjust the HT to make it work and then you loose a lot of what makes white #1 a good steel. Also, i've noticed a few knives for sale that claim to be this but are not (they claim white #1, but are really white #2).


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## Brad Gibson (Sep 14, 2013)

After learning a little about honyaki blades I don't think I would want a workhorse cutter like a gyuto to be a honyaki. From what I understand it would be very chippy and delicate. A gyuto should be able to tackle any task and if I chipped my super expensive honyaki blade on say, a lemon seed, I think I'd be pretty pissed. Mostly at myself!


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## JBroida (Sep 14, 2013)

in this case, we i was talking about zen-ko not honyaki... honyaki you can find, but it still donest mean its a smart call


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## masibu (Sep 14, 2013)

Thanks for all the information, I was guessing that might be the case. Breaking my knife on a lemon seed would be pretty depressing! Sounds like I should leave honyaki white #1 alone. I guess solid White #2 is looking like my preference at the moment. I did see that Masamoto 240, but I prefer a 270mm in general for prep. I've got a couple of 240s (konosuke hd Funayuki profile and a Sugimoto CM series) which don't see as much use since I got the Hiromoto (I do love them both for their feeling, but they seem so small in comparison now). Adding to my collection of unused knives probably isn't ideal. 

If I were to try cladded white #1 (such as the Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan on JCK) would I find any considerable advantage/differences to the AS Hiromoto that I'm currently using? I do quite like this knife but I would prefer something in solid steel so I'm worried I might be a little disappointed if I don't chase exactly what I'm looking for.


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## masibu (Sep 14, 2013)

Also, does anybody know anthing about this? 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/White-st...LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41704fecc5&_uhb=1

300mm white steel gyuto... that's freaking massive although I'd love to have a crack with it


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 14, 2013)

masibu said:


> Also, does anybody know anthing about this?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/White-st...LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41704fecc5&_uhb=1
> 
> 300mm white steel gyuto... that's freaking massive although I'd love to have a crack with it



This brand popped up on a Rakuten thread a while back, the 240mm gyuto was quite cheap iirc.


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## Benuser (Sep 14, 2013)

Have you considered a simpler plain carbon, like a Misono Swedish? Hardness is kept reasonable, at 60HRC, a bit softer than your Hiromoto. Takes a great edge, sharpens very easily, has a somewhat finer grain than your Hiro, but lacks its edge retention and teeth.
By the way, the damped feeling you noticed may disappear after some serious thinning with the clad being removed.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 14, 2013)

Brad Gibson said:


> After learning a little about honyaki blades I don't think I would want a workhorse cutter like a gyuto to be a honyaki. From what I understand it would be very chippy and delicate. A gyuto should be able to tackle any task and if I chipped my super expensive honyaki blade on say, a lemon seed, I think I'd be pretty pissed. Mostly at myself!



This depends entirely on the steel, thermal cycling process, and end heat treat process. What 'honyaki' amounts to is a high carbon monosteel blade, traditionally quenched in water, but also sometimes quenched in brine or fast oil. As Mr. Broida mentioned, very pure (simple iron and carbon) ultra high carbon steels aren't really well suited for this. There's just nothing to hold the edge together. Something with a bit less carbon, or more alloys to form carbides (the blues in particular interest me) are much more suited.

I've handled a number of tool steel (moderate alloy content, not high) honyaki blades, at 62-63hrc. These blades have very fine edges, and aren't, in my experience...chippy in the least.


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## scotchef38 (Sep 14, 2013)

masibu said:


> Hmm.. thanks. I'm guessing its harder to work with white #1 than #2? Forgot to mention I'm chasing a 150mm petty and I live in Australia so shipping is usually delightfully expensive. I have a Sakai Yusuke suji coming in the mail soon to give me an idea of how white #2 feels in case I fail in my quest for white #1. Yusuke seems to be the cheaper option of the sakai knives although that KS profile suits me a whole lot better for a gyuto. Ah.. I'm so addicted to this stuff now. I've been researching stones and knives on and off for months


Welcome.Try Koki at Japanesechefsknife.com.He has a flat rate $7 shipping fee and it gets to you in a few days.


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## masibu (Sep 14, 2013)

Benuser said:


> Have you considered a simpler plain carbon, like a Misono Swedish? Hardness is kept reasonable, at 60HRC, a bit softer than your Hiromoto. Takes a great edge, sharpens very easily, has a somewhat finer grain than your Hiro, but lacks its edge retention and teeth.
> By the way, the damped feeling you noticed may disappear after some serious thinning with the clad being removed.



What chemical composition of steel is this? I did look at some simpler carbon knives in sk-4 but I read White #2 being a boss on the stones to work with so I guess I have been keeping this in mind and not paying much attention to others. I'm not really convinced about sk knives suiting me for very long (hard to please I guess haha). I have no interest in knives in blue steel at all either (although my Moritaka Honesuki has been pretty good).

I've thinned out the Hiromoto a touch and have been happy with it but I'm worried about destroying it or something if I thin it out too much. I'm a bit of a rookie on the stones although I'm getting a lot better. I don't really "need" but rather "want" more knives just so I can experience them. I work in environments where nobody seems to know anything about knives so I guess I'm trying to absorb what I can and promote the use of quality knives in kitchens where I work. Most people get by on their dull Victorinox and other generic german alloys they bought as an apprentice and people whose idea of a high quality knife is either Global or Shun. Not many can sharpen very well and blast their knives on the steel all day. There is a knife guy that comes in once a month that does a very ordinary job -- Ive seen left handed chiselled edges on the german kitchen knives and have to wonder to myself "why?".


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## masibu (Sep 14, 2013)

scotchef38 said:


> Welcome.Try Koki at Japanesechefsknife.com.He has a flat rate $7 shipping fee and it gets to you in a few days.



I got my Hiromoto AS from there, I was really happy with the delivery time and price on it! The guys at work notice my sharp knives and I'm pretty quick to recommend to them either the 210 or 240 from there.


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## Benuser (Sep 14, 2013)

masibu said:


> What chemical composition of steel is this? I did look at some simpler carbon knives in sk-4 but I read White #2 being a boss on the stones to work with so I guess I have been keeping this in mind and not paying much attention to others. I'm not really convinced about sk knives suiting me for very long (hard to please I guess haha). I have no interest in knives in blue steel at all either (although my Moritaka Honesuki has been pretty good).
> 
> I've thinned out the Hiromoto a touch and have been happy with it but I'm worried about destroying it or something if I thin it out too much. I'm a bit of a rookie on the stones although I'm getting a lot better. I don't really "need" but rather "want" more knives just so I can experience them. I work in environments where nobody seems to know anything about knives so I guess I'm trying to absorb what I can and promote the use of quality knives in kitchens where I work. Most people get by on their dull Victorinox and other generic german alloys they bought as an apprentice and people whose idea of a high quality knife is either Global or Shun. Not many can sharpen very well and blast their knives on the steel all day. There is a knife guy that comes in once a month that does a very ordinary job -- Ive seen left handed chiselled edges on the german kitchen knives and have to wonder to myself "why?".



Expect the Swedish by Misono to be very close to the 1095. Very pure, in contrast to the SK-4, which contains a lot of sulfur. Standard carbon steel used by French, German and English makers, all from Swedish ore.
About the Hiromoto: have the core part freed of cladding for some 1.5cm on both sides, perhaps a little more on the left face, and you will be fine. Don't be afraid.


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## harlock0083 (Sep 14, 2013)

masibu said:


> Also, does anybody know anthing about this?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/White-st...LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41704fecc5&_uhb=1
> 
> 300mm white steel gyuto... that's freaking massive although I'd love to have a crack with it



I've bought the 240mm version of that gyuto. I also emailed the maker and they say its white #1 monosteel. I can dig up the emails if you wish. Its a very heavy gyuto. It also gets very sharp, I'm not sure what the hardness on it is though. Here's a pic next to a Sakai Yusuke. My next goal is to get it rehandled with something nicer than pakka wood.


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## masibu (Sep 14, 2013)

I will thin out the hiromoto some more when time permits.. I won't be afraid this time!

Assuming I'm going to buy a white #2 gyuto, a sakai yusuke 270mm will cost me ~$250 AUS from bluewayjapan where a Masamoto KS will cost ~$390. That's a massive price difference. Is the KS really "worth" that/has anybody handled both knives and been disappointed with one but not the other? If I can save some coin and go with the Yusuke, I figure I might as well assuming there are no glaring problems with them at all in comparison. I do prefer knives with a little more heft and I do push-cut but I'm not entirely sure whether that price difference would make up for that.


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## harlock0083 (Sep 14, 2013)

masibu said:


> I will thin out the hiromoto some more when time permits.. I won't be afraid this time!
> 
> Assuming I'm going to buy a white #2 gyuto, a sakai yusuke 270mm will cost me ~$250 AUS from bluewayjapan where a Masamoto KS will cost ~$390. That's a massive price difference. Is the KS really "worth" that/has anybody handled both knives and been disappointed with one but not the other? If I can save some coin and go with the Yusuke, I figure I might as well assuming there are no glaring problems with them at all in comparison. I do prefer knives with a little more heft and I do push-cut but I'm not entirely sure whether that price difference would make up for that.



I really like the Yusuke. Mine's is the Swedish stainless version.


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## masibu (Sep 14, 2013)

harlock0083 said:


> I've bought the 240mm version of that gyuto. I also emailed the maker and they say its white #1 monosteel. I can dig up the emails if you wish. Its a very heavy gyuto. It also gets very sharp, I'm not sure what the hardness on it is though. Here's a pic next to a Sakai Yusuke. My next goal is to get it rehandled with something nicer than pakka wood.



Thanks a lot for that, the more information I get the better!

Who is the maker of this knife? Have you had any dramas with it or been unhappy with it? How heavy is that 240? Sorry for all the questions. I'd probably get a rehandle on that sucker if I were to buy it. If that truly is a mono-steel white #1 I'm very intrigued, but I'd settle with white #2. I might message the dude selling it for a few details including rockwell hardness too.

EDIT: Looked a little more thoroughly, that would be a Kogetsu brand. The other knives on ebay list them as White #2/Shirogami 2


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## masibu (Sep 14, 2013)

harlock0083 said:


> I really like the Yusuke. Mine's is the Swedish stainless version.



Do you find you go to the Yusuke or that other White Knife more frequently?


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## harlock0083 (Sep 14, 2013)

masibu said:


> Do you find you go to the Yusuke or that other White Knife more frequently?



I used the factory edge on my Yusuke (not that impressed) so I went back to my Goko. I've since sharpened it a bit and the performance was much better (unlike the Artifex which required a lot more sharpening and the burs were really stubborn and also gummy like in the beginning, the burs did get better but that's only like after 4-5 sharpening sessions). Before though I had an Artifex extra tall and I would constantly go for my Goko more (I think its mostly due to balance. I've since given the knife to a friend which gave me a reason to buy the Yusuke). 

The maker is Goko and it is their Kogetsu brand. The only drama I had with my Goko is from cutting myself because I wasn't paying attention (It gets stupid sharp). 

If you're interested in monosteel, another good choice would be the JCK semi stainless line and also Gesshin ginga line. (I'm waiting for the Chinese cleaver to come in so I can blow 300 bucks on another knife.... I think I'm an addict.....). I've heard many good things about it on the interwebs and stuff. I'm going to recommend against the Naozumi line for now. I bought a cheap 150mm petty to use. While the F&F I can live with mine came with a bent tip which required some work on the stones to remove (I still haven't fully removed it yet.) On a side not the bur is super easy to remove on the Naozumi petty I have. It literally came off as a wire! Kinda freaked me out when I saw it.

Oh and the Fujiwara carbon line if you wanna go cheap, just force a patina on it. The steel is quite reactive and stinky. I miss it now after I sold mine. :'(.


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## chuck239 (Sep 15, 2013)

Brad Gibson said:


> After learning a little about honyaki blades I don't think I would want a workhorse cutter like a gyuto to be a honyaki. From what I understand it would be very chippy and delicate. A gyuto should be able to tackle any task and if I chipped my super expensive honyaki blade on say, a lemon seed, I think I'd be pretty pissed. Mostly at myself!



Just to clarify, this is not the case of honyaki gyutos. I use 2 very often at work. They do not chip on lemon seeds. I use mine for everything and have not had any chipping issues. Sorry to go off topic but I don't want people to be misinformed about statements like the above one.

-Chuck


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 15, 2013)

masibu said:


> EDIT: Looked a little more thoroughly, that would be a Kogetsu brand. The other knives on ebay list them as White #2/Shirogami 2



I would be skeptical of the claim that it is White #1.

Here's the exact knife on Rakuten, says it is made by Hachimagawa Yoshihito. Perhaps it is OEM, there are certainly lots of blades out there that are.

http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/honmamon-r/item/1110708/?s-id=borderless_browsehist_en


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## Brad Gibson (Sep 15, 2013)

chuck239 said:


> Just to clarify, this is not the case of honyaki gyutos. I use 2 very often at work. They do not chip on lemon seeds. I use mine for everything and have not had any chipping issues. Sorry to go off topic but I don't want people to be misinformed about statements like the above one.
> 
> -Chuck



Thanks for adding your experience chuck. I have none on the topic my statement was pretty much hearsay. I was hoping someone would chime in with more experience with a gyuto like this!


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## harlock0083 (Sep 15, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> I would be skeptical of the claim that it is White #1.
> 
> Here's the exact knife on Rakuten, says it is made by Hachimagawa Yoshihito. Perhaps it is OEM, there are certainly lots of blades out there that are.
> 
> http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/honmamon-r/item/1110708/?s-id=borderless_browsehist_en



I'll just paste the response email from Goko:

I appreciate your inquiry very much.

We use shirogami #1 for our kitchen knives made of miled steel.

The thickness of the blade at the spine is around 2.0~2.3 millimeter.

The knives we make in our factory are all handmade. You might see
a slight difference in width, thickness, or length in each knife even when they come in a same size.

Also, we are a traditional small factory that focuses on practical,useful knives.
You might see some miner imperfections on our knives compare to knives at the stores,
made by a huge factory that uses machine tools.

Could you tell us how you found our company and products?

I also want to mention that I don't really read or write English,
so It could take a few days for me to respond because I have to ask one of my English speaker friends to translate for me.

Thank you so much.

Gokouhamono seisakusyo
Yoshito Yamakawa


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## masibu (Sep 15, 2013)

chuck239 said:


> Just to clarify, this is not the case of honyaki gyutos. I use 2 very often at work. They do not chip on lemon seeds. I use mine for everything and have not had any chipping issues. Sorry to go off topic but I don't want people to be misinformed about statements like the above one.
> 
> -Chuck



What gyutos are you using at work? Do you notice a big difference between them and zen-ku style knives in performance?


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## JBroida (Sep 15, 2013)

harlock0083 said:


> I'll just paste the response email from Goko:
> 
> I appreciate your inquiry very much.
> 
> ...



also, the knives they make are clad


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 15, 2013)

harlock0083 said:


> I'll just paste the response email from Goko:
> 
> I appreciate your inquiry very much.
> 
> ...





JBroida said:


> also, the knives they make are clad



Very cool that you got an e-mail from the maker, thanks for sharing.


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## dough (Sep 15, 2013)

To the question of masamoto KS being worth the higher price?
Imo no but at that price point you stopped paying for a knife that can hold a good edge and you are paying for other things in this case its a profile and a name because the finish of most masamotos leaves something to be desired. I think masamoto is not the best first purchase its more ok I tired many knives and I keep hearing and seeing those masamotos everywhere.... to settle my curiosity I must try one. let me tell ya do yourself a favor and just go for a custom pierre or mario or marko because those are cut soo much nicer with similar profile. I have also seen all these makers at competitive prices but I realize these makers are not local for you however my point is with these makers you get a knife worth every penny and I'm not so sure thats the case with the masamoto. 
Reading this you might think I dislike the KS and that's not true. It's one of my favorite knives on the line for general prep.


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## masibu (Sep 16, 2013)

I feel like I might be making a bad choice now but I dropped the money on the Masamoto. I guess curiosity got the better of me. If it doesn't sit well with me, hopefully I can just sell it off without losing out too much. I have a few others to sell off soon anyway. I still have a bit of a soft spot for my Sugimoto 240mm Wa-Gyuto despite the fact it's definitely not my best knife. It was the first Japanese knife I ever bought after using Germans for years and it pretty much convinced me to find out more about different steels. It's been great for me to practice sharpening on and is a bit of a beater knife of sorts. I've never had any issues with it other than all the grind marks from my first sharpening sessions (one of these days I'll polish them out). It's probably the only knife I won't end up ever selling off, not that anybody tends to really want it anyway.

I am curious about getting a custom knife made for me, perhaps that will be the next step after trying out all these different steels I have..I have a 210mm Artifex in m390 and was pretty underwhelmed. It came with a tiny bevel and a relatively thick grind (at least to me) and has proven to be pretty ridiculous to sharpen up. It needs a lot of work and I don't really have the time to reshape it. It threw me off a little so I've been working with stuff that's easier and less time-consuming for me. If I had a custom knife made for me with good steel and grinds I would probably happily pay the extra money to have a professional do it and I would only need to maintain it then


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## harlock0083 (Sep 16, 2013)

masibu said:


> I feel like I might be making a bad choice now but I dropped the money on the Masamoto.



I really don't think a Masamoto would be a bad choice by many accounts.


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