# Why shigefusa or Kato?



## preizzo (May 2, 2015)

There are many of good brand out there and mostly all the people inside this forum are always talking about those two producer! 
Why?they are really worth the money and the time? If you are a professional chef would you use 700usd knife in a professional busy kitchen? I am pretty sure that 70 %of the shigefusa around the word are sitting inside a box or just slicing few things every month


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## Dardeau (May 2, 2015)

I use a Shig yanagiba in a pro kitchen. Waiting on a Kato as well.


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## cheflivengood (May 2, 2015)

preizzo said:


> There are many of good brand out there and mostly all the people inside this forum are always talking about those two producer!
> Why?they are really worth the money and the time? If you are a professional chef would you use 700usd knife in a professional busy kitchen? I am pretty sure that 70 %of the shigefusa around the word are sitting inside a box or just slicing few things every month



In a michlin environment I 100% would have, but never had the chance, learned about kkf too late. I did use over $500 Steel and never had problems, but that environment was very "don't touch mine I won't touch yours"


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## chinacats (May 2, 2015)

They're just what happens to be hot...that said, Shigefusa (and somewhat Kato) has been hot for a very long time

They both make great knives that may or may not be what you like...both are worth at least trying so that you can come to your own conclusions.

I've owned quite a few Shigs and a Kato...I'll own more Shigs and possibly more Katos but found them both to be outstanding examples of what a kitchen knife can be. They are two of the few that I think anyone with this interest should definitely try.

:2cents:


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## Asteger (May 2, 2015)

cheflivengood said:


> ..., but that environment was very "don't touch mine I won't touch yours"



Not very romantic!

No, in my experience I wouldn't be using these knives at work. However, I think the 'Michelin environment' comment is spot on.


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## easy13 (May 2, 2015)

Use my Kato, Shig or any of my expensive knives in pro kitchen, not on the line, but when I'm in more of an expo/finishing dishes role or during prep sure. Don't think I am going to ever really be in the position of feeling the joy of ripping through 15 lbs of Carrots with ease using one of those beasts at home. For off-site work, events, catering etc.. I have a separate kit of cheaper yet decent blades (Suisin Western, Misono, Fujiwara...) because you are usually using sh*t cutting boards if any, in odd setups with a bunch of strangers around.


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## Noodle Soup (May 2, 2015)

My 180mm Shig gyuto is probably my most used general utility knife. I also have a 180 Shig nakri that is a favorite when I'm making curry paste from scratch. I do have to admit my Kato is stored away right now, mostly because I like the Shig better. But none are what ever the kitchen equivalent of a "safe queen" is.


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## preizzo (May 2, 2015)

I am not a lucky headchef... My employer are to aggressive, try to tech them how to take care of the knives but it s a waist of time, that why I will never bring at work my expensive knives. 
I would like to own some day one of them but just only if I will get a job in osteria francescana (which is my dream as Italian chef). 
Have a knife sitting in a box it s not right!!! As to be use!! &#128516;


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## cheflivengood (May 2, 2015)

Asteger said:


> Not very romantic!



:rofl2:


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## Geo87 (May 2, 2015)

Forget brand names the bottom line is I would never use an iron clad gyuto in a pro kitchen. I tried it, never again. Iron cladding so far in my experience has been very reactive. You can't get a very stable patina on it like carbon so it will always react. Dave Martel once said your options are keep it polished or rustina. You will be wiping your blade between every single onion you cut or they will turn black/ Brown. For this reason they are damn unproductive. They also rust very easily. VERY easily. 

I would never consider paying 500-1000$ for a shig / kato. I wouldn't pay half that. Bottom line I won't ever use iron clad gyuto in a pro kitchen. [email protected]$k that! No way  I feel very strongly about this. 

Marko on the other hand  I can cut 5kg of onions with his 52100 without wiping the blade once. Never had any rust even when I'm not pedantically wiping it. 

You crazy bastards can keep your shigs and Katos as far as I'm concerned  I know that's not a popular opinion but I don't care it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!


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## preizzo (May 2, 2015)

Forget brand names the bottom line is I would never use an iron clad gyuto in a pro kitchen. I tried it, never again. Iron cladding so far in my experience has been very reactive. You can't get a very stable patina on it like carbon so it will always react. Dave Martel once said your options are keep it polished or rustina. You will be wiping your blade between every single onion you cut or they will turn black/ Brown. For this reason they are damn unproductive. They also rust very easily. VERY easily. 

I would never consider paying 500-1000$ for a shig / kato. I wouldn't pay half that. Bottom line I won't ever use iron clad gyuto in a pro kitchen. [email protected]$k that! No way &#65532; I feel very strongly about this. 

Marko on the other hand &#65532; I can cut 5kg of onions with his 52100 without wiping the blade once. Never had any rust even when I'm not pedantically wiping it. 

You crazy bastards can keep your shigs and Katos as far as I'm concerned &#65532; I know that's not a popular opinion but I don't care it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!


I agreed totally. 
It s seek that!!


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## labor of love (May 2, 2015)

I dont mind maintaining soft iron cladding in a pro kitchen, but I can completely understand why others would disagree. Like many knives Shigs and Kato have certain qualities about them that makes them unique and difficult to find in other knives, its not just about a name brand/maker.


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## preizzo (May 2, 2015)

When I am working in my kitchen I Don t need any perfect knife. I need just something that it s doing his job and quality I can found it in a cheap knife aswell.!


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## preizzo (May 2, 2015)

Meant I Don t need to spend 500-1000 usd for something I will use for basic things (cutting, etc...)
I wold spend that money only for vanity. Show off to everyone that I have the best!!


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## labor of love (May 2, 2015)

preizzo said:


> When I am working in my kitchen I Don t need any perfect knife. I need just something that it s doing his job and quality I can found it in a cheap knife aswell.!



Well then more power to you. I find knives that I like alot all sorts of different price points too.


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## chefcomesback (May 2, 2015)

Used them both in pro kitchen in the past , I appreciate the craftsmanship went behind and the quality but now I am only using 52100 monosteel or stainless clad carbon gyutos


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## daveb (May 2, 2015)

Maybe add a sub-forum "Average knives for average guys that are on average better than average cooks".


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## preizzo (May 2, 2015)

Ooh big words.... &#128541;


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## chefcomesback (May 2, 2015)

Should be right next to the subforum "I have all the high end knives that use for cutting mis en place for dinner once I week and I spend the rest of the week polishing the blade with finger stones "


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## drawman623 (May 2, 2015)

preizzo said:


> Forget brand names the bottom line is I would never use an iron clad gyuto in a pro kitchen. I tried it, never again....polished or rustina.
> 
> I would never consider paying 500-1000$ for a shig / kato. I wouldn't pay half that. No way &#65532; I feel very strongly about this.
> 
> ...



I so enjoy reading the thoughts of experts with such clarity of opinion. 

Permit me, representing myself as one of the "crazy bastards" out there, to express a few thoughts.

I enjoy my costly Shigefusa knives every day. Some I cut with and others I admire. I have passion to polish my skills and some day appreciate them all. All are cherished because they represent to me a level of excellence and commitment to craft that is noble. It elevates the mundane to a form of art. 

If you buy to cut only, and you cut well, you need not nor should not invest in an artisan knife that will never be more than a tool in your hands. If you are seduced by art and let a master's knife sit in its box, or as another member once put it, "cut 1 tomato per month with hard on" then you are probably not worthy either. 

There are scarcely few things in life that offer such beauty and functionality as fine kitchen knives. I could drink wine or smoke the best cigars and with a puff or gulp, see my asset vanish. With kitchen knives, however, I can savor their beauty, strive to master their function and enjoy the experience over and over. With proper care, I can hand my knives down or trade them up. 

To some end users, a thriving market is an opportunity to experience the best at whatever personal level is most gratifying. Sorry if I don't measure up to YOUR standards...but my Shigs do meet my own quite well.

I'll look into the Marko...the last one I held had such wonderful taper and balance. Not sure what I'll do with 5kg of sliced onions...but things have a way of sorting themselves out in the end:rolleyes2:


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## preizzo (May 2, 2015)

Hi drawman 
Can I ask something? Are you a chef?in which invairoment are you working with your shig and Kato?


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## chefcomesback (May 2, 2015)

drawman623 said:


> I so enjoy reading the thoughts of experts with such clarity of opinion.
> 
> Permit me, representing myself as one of the "crazy bastards" out there, to express a few thoughts.
> 
> ...



I am no expert , different strokes for different folks I must have added . I have sold all of my high end knives . I can get good performance from cheaper knives ( tadafusa) with proper sharpening and thinning


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## drawman623 (May 2, 2015)

I am not a chef. I cook and cut for my own joy from my home. 

I feel great respect for the opinion of experts who use their knives with grace and skill. I believe that it is short sighted, however, to see a knife as nothing more than a means to chop food in a professional environment.

Your point against iron cladding is quite valid. I hope that you can se my point, intended to say that for some, expensive inappropriate knives can provide a valid joy of ownership too.


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## drawman623 (May 2, 2015)

chefcomesback said:


> I can get good performance from cheaper knives ( tadafusa) with proper sharpening and thinning



Performance has many definitions. A Ferrari or a Honda will get you from A to B. On that basis, there is only one logical choice. I've tried to become satisfied with lesser things...but to the extent that I can afford myself choice, I enjoy the finer things...even in the knowledge that they may not offer better utility than the economical alternative. I take pride in the art side


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## chefcomesback (May 2, 2015)

I am not comparing honda to Ferrari , your analogy is bit off . I have seen lot of high end knives that are not maintained or sharpened and cut not as well as better sharpened and maintained cheaper knives . Knives are my hobby and take most of my spare time , I do appreciate the high end quality comes with it but what you describe as lesser things are actually not as less as you think if you know how to maximise their performance by sharpening and bit of maintenance .


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## drawman623 (May 2, 2015)

Point taken. No disrespect or arrogance intended


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## Dardeau (May 2, 2015)

Not drawman, but I am a professional, a sous at a very well respected restaurant where I do use Shigs and plan to use a Kato as part of a rotation. 

As for iron cladding I have used four knives as my main line knife in rotation recently, a Tesshu (now sold), a 210mm Shig gyuto, a 210mm itinomonn suji, and a 210ish Heiji. Three of those are iron clad, and after they settled down I had no problems with them. The Heiji, my favorite, is stainless. I don't have to wipe as much cutting lots of garlic. That isn't why it is my favorite.

I have a couple of semi stainless single bevels that I like as much or more than some of my carbons. 

If you don't understand using a Shig or Kato maybe you should buy or borrow one and give it a whirl? If no one will loan you one (if you are in the States I would think about it, my 210 Shig is on a road trip right now) you can resell for a very low loss right here. That is one of the coolest things about KKF.


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## Geo87 (May 2, 2015)

Well that escalated quickly... I was only asleep for a few hours since my first comment. Just a reminder I was talking about iron clad knives like shig and kato not being suitable for a pro enviroment IMO. 
Of course at home you can appreciate all the art you want it's fine by me  just not my thing. 
I will continue to work with monosteel carbon and clad stainless knives as I have to be as productive as possible to survive in a pro kitchen. As any cook/ chef in a busy restaurant will understand. I will continue to recommend other cooks do the same. Nobody talks much about the reactivity of shigs and other iron knives here openly. I don't want any cooks spending their hard earned cash on one based on the fanatical following and high praise they have here just to find it's more reactive than they bargained for. We don't have a great deal of money to throw around like some do.


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## Geo87 (May 2, 2015)

Dardeau said:


> If you don't understand using a Shig or Kato maybe you should buy or borrow one and give it a whirl? If no one will loan you one (if you are in the States I would think about it, my 210 Shig is on a road trip right now) you can resell for a very low loss right here. That is one of the coolest things about KKF.



I did borrow a shig kitaji gyuto recently thanks to the generosity of this forum  and it was very reactive just like every other iron clad knife I've used. My kochi I used for 6 months never calmed down. 
I would never make such comments without personal experience and trying it first. 

I am entitled to my opinion as are you however unpopular my opinion be. 

I have to cut up ALOT of stuff where I work. Sometimes we have 3 weddings in a weekend. Iron clad knives are just not for me they are just too unproductive with all the wiping and the extra upkeep. 

Like I said been there, tried it... Never again


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## Geo87 (May 2, 2015)

daveb said:


> Maybe add a sub-forum "Average knives for average guys that are on average better than average cooks".



Are you calling me average? If so dems fighting words. 
Perhaps your unaware but uh...


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## Dardeau (May 2, 2015)

Geo87 said:


> Are you calling me average? If so dems fighting words.
> Perhaps your unaware but uh...



Hilarious.


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## chinacats (May 2, 2015)

Just to throw this out, but I'm sure different professionals all wind up cutting different types of food and for those who mainly deal with proteins or other less reactive foods I'm guessing it's not as much of a problem?


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## Geo87 (May 2, 2015)

chinacats said:


> Just to throw this out, but I'm sure different professionals all wind up cutting different types of food and for those who mainly deal with proteins or other less reactive foods I'm guessing it's not as much of a problem?



Yes completely agree iron clad suji or deba or yangi absolutely. 

Gyuto, petty or line knife no way


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## Dardeau (May 2, 2015)

Having an SS deba is nice for saltwater fishing. I remember fishing....

I just match the knife to the job, if it is December and I'm going to be supremeing grapefruit I'll make sure I pull out the stainless that day. 

I'm just saying make like Geo87 and give it a whirl to see what it's like. It is fun to try different knives until you find the ones that fit you. BST makes it fairly inexpensive to do.


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## gic (May 2, 2015)

Apparently it is possible (do a google on "Forcing a patina on the Shigefusa 240 kasumi Gyuto") to get Shigs to become essentially non reactive, takes a bit of work but doable. I recently got a takada clad AS that I am looking forward to doing an onion session with


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## Geo87 (May 2, 2015)

Thanks gic that was a pretty good read. Very interesting. Looks like you can build a stable patina on iron according to that post... I'll believe it when I try it myself though  
I tried everything with my kochi, mustard, vinegar, baking soda. Nothing ever stabilised it well not even after 6 months pro work.

Though I never tried the 20 layers of mustard method lol I'll try that soon and report back


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## chefcomesback (May 2, 2015)

I loved everything about mine except the reactivity . I had sanded down to a finer grit , didn't help much either . if I had one now I would be trying mirror polish then etch in ferric chloride , I managed to keep an iron clad line knife pretty calm for a long time but I am only cutting cooked meats during service at the pass (expo)


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## sj9603 (May 3, 2015)

For a couple years my shig kitaeji was my go-to knife, now I use my fujiwara fkh all of the time. Both can be very reactive, but that'd be so only if you try to keep them look pretty. I have found that, once I stopped thinking about the look, staining became a non-issue. By this time the patina would have a shade of red, but if you want it to shine, that patina can be wiped off in a minute or two. As to why shig, I think you pay for the hardness, edge retention, geometry, workmanship, and etc. In that light, by sacrificing a little on the hardness and geometry, a lot on edge retention and workmanship, but all the while focusing on a sharpened edge, I think the fkh can be a wonderful knife. Certainly two fkh can beat one shig in any kitchen. In all cases, a knife is only as good as how it is sharpened.


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## Marcelo Amaral (May 3, 2015)

I'm simply a home cook, but when you are under pressure you need something that deliver. I remember people at work trying to extract data using a software that was intuitive with a graphical interface, but it took much longer than actually doing the query in SQL. It just didn't work well if you needed to get the job done quickly (who needs the boss at your neck asking if you are done?).
So, i guess if Shigefusa or Kato really works for you, awesome. I have gyutos from both at home and love them (for me they are worth the price), but if i were a chef and it were not practical to use, i wouldn't think twice to change and look for something that works specifically for me in that situation.


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## labor of love (May 3, 2015)

Seems like 2 diff things are being discussed here. Whether or not Shigs and Katos are worth the price and also whether or not soft iron clad knives are practical for pro kitchen use. I definitely prefer my parer/petty knives to be in stainless or stainless clad as those are the knives most likely to be used for prepping citrus stuff and other fruit. But honestly gyuto/suji work for me never gets out of hand to the point where I feel that stainless/stainless clad is a necessity. Maybe stainless/stainless clad gyutos and sujis are a luxury but its not a big deal to get by with carbon cladding for me.
Katos are worth the price for me due to the combination of fantastic grind,weight and steel performance. Katos are the heaviest thin behind the edge knife ive ever used. Theyre weird because they cut with power and precision at the same time...but they are a luxury.
I think the performance of Shigefusa knives can be matched in cheaper knives in some ways. But at the same time the unique steel, profile and craftmanship that shig uses for its gyutos is what makes it a nice knife to me. Im not sure if I would pay for a brand new shig, its not hard to just keep an eye out in BST and score good deals on used Shigs.


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## daddy yo yo (May 3, 2015)

drawman623 said:


> Not sure what I'll do with 5kg of sliced onions...


onion soup, indian curry or gulasch... :happymug:


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## Geo87 (May 3, 2015)

L.o.l : in response to your two topics

I think if a knife is worth the price or not is up to the individual. We all look for and appreciate slightly different things in knives. Sure I don't think shigs in particular kitaji are worth the price but I'm sure others will find they Are. Can't comment on kato haven't tried one. 

Well I've mentioned I don't think iron clad is very suitable for pro kitchen certainly not the environment I currently work in. my reasoning behind this is that productivity is a very important thing to me. I pride myself on being as fast & productive as possible. I gave iron a good go, tried every method suggested to calm the knife down. Used the knife for 6 months, I was not as productive and had to wipe the knife a crazy amount of times during prep... This drove me crazy. 
I have to cut up truckloads of cabbage, tomatoes, onions , large fruit, etc 
I am personally faster with low reactive monosteel considering the type of stuff I cut and the large volume of food I prep on a daily basis 

Get a bunch of onions, tomatos, cabbage, capsicum or pineapple and see how much you can cut with iron without wiping before it starts reacting or smelling or turning the food black/ brown. 

I can respect some people can make iron work for them. I'm just not one of them


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## TheDispossessed (May 3, 2015)

I got a Kato a few months back and a Shig Kitaeji on the way in a few months. 
For me it was another step from which I now cannot turn back.

The past 10 years of my life in knives:
Wusthof is good right?
then
Oh cheap Japanese westerns, these are better
then
Carbon Laser Wa-Knives, these are great!
then
Kato, Shig, etc. Ok, now this is the real McCoy.

I have sold a lot of knives to make sure I could afford to keep just a couple real good ones.
I'd rather have just my Kato workhorse than 10 production knives, lasers, what have you.


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## TheDispossessed (May 3, 2015)

also,
with regards to the issue of managing knife reactivity in the workplace.
My experience in a Japanese kitchen was that no one would ever get on you for taking a second to clean your knife, actually the opposite. Also, you're not cutting a lot of onions. going back to a western kitchen was honestly rough and unpleasant in a lot of ways. I can understand wanting to have a lower maintenance knife in a western environment. There's just generally so much less consideration for cleanliness in cutting and proper knife care. 
Just my experience.
peace


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## Asteger (May 3, 2015)

TheDispossessed said:


> ... going back to a western kitchen was honestly rough and unpleasant in a lot of ways. I can understand wanting to have a lower maintenance knife in a western environment. There's just generally so much less consideration for cleanliness in cutting and proper knife care.



I think this was meant as a serious comment, but still I think it deserves a big LOL :biggrin: Quite funny


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## CaremeFraiche (May 3, 2015)

Since joining this forum i am convinced that I need a Shigefusa. I think that anyone whether they are a chef or home cook can use whatever knife they want from custom Damascus to Honyaki. I also consider a home cooked meal for your family as valid as a Michelin starred dinner. Regarding the use of high end knives in restaurants, nowadays a lot of Michelin starred chefs are bringing their sensibilities to more accessible restaurants and in a lot of kitchens it is good to have a high end knife to do more delicate cuts for veggies and etc.


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## daveb (May 3, 2015)

Only one??? Good luck!


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## tcmx3 (May 3, 2015)

Geo87 said:


> Please don't come after me with pitch forks for having an opinion.



if you wanna state an opinion without it being open for discussion I suggest you start a blog.

guess ur opinion isnt very tightly held anyway if you feel compelled to try and shut down what has, so far, been only light scrutiny.

also this aint about shig/kato in a pro kitchen I dont have a dog in that race at all I dont even necessarily disagree with you (cant since Ive never set foot in a pro kitchen) but if you figured out that your opinion wasnt going to be popular (which you've said about a hundred times) and you post it anyway isnt it obvious people are going to say they disagree?


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## Geo87 (May 3, 2015)

Not trying to shut anything down. Of course this is an open discussion. 
All I meant was don't hate me for having a different opinion (101) 

Feel free to disagree with me, filter through all these pages and find small things to pick at me about. 

Either way I'm always open for discussion. But I guess the discussion ends here anyway. 
I'll keep my trap shut next time huh?


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## CaremeFraiche (May 3, 2015)

I believe it is perfectly valid for someone to collect any kind of knife and keep them in their box and appreciate them and do what they see fit with them without someone else judging them or casting aspersions.


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## Geo87 (May 4, 2015)

It's also perfectly valid to collect stamps or paintings. 
Knives are functional tools as well as pieces of art and deserve to be used and appreciated not just sit in boxes. 
Why not get salty to paint a nice picture of a shigefusa and put it on the wall?


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## malexthekid (May 4, 2015)

Stamps are also a functional tool... just saying


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## Geo87 (May 4, 2015)

touche


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## Asteger (May 4, 2015)

malexthekid said:


> Stamps are also a functional tool... just saying



Nice one! 

I agree to some extent agree with:



CaremeFraiche said:


> I believe it is perfectly valid for someone to collect any kind of knife and keep them in their box and appreciate them and do what they see fit with them without someone else judging them or casting aspersions.



I don't do this myself with knives, though I do do it with nat stones which I buy too much of and sometimes seldom use, but this is because I will buy if I have the chance thinking that in later years I will use them and getting them will be harder and more expensive for me then, so kind of an investment. I do think the large collections people can amass are self-indulgent, though, and if I were a knife maker I'd make my knives with the idea they'll be used. It must be an odd experience being a Japanese sword maker knowing that, apart from the odd times when a sword is touched or polished/sharpened, your creation will sit around for an eternity.


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## berko (May 4, 2015)

> Yes completely agree iron clad suji or deba or yangi absolutely.
> 
> Gyuto, petty or line knife no way



Im with you on this one, except for the fact that i use my petty only for proteins.


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## daveb (May 4, 2015)

Geo87 said:


> Why not get salty to paint a nice picture of a shigefusa and put it on the wall?



Buying a Shig would no doubt be cheaper.....

Geo - If you feel you have to preface your thoughts with "I really should stop posting to this thread." or " Don't hate me for having an opinion..." or anything about "offending" anyone perhaps you should stop typing for a few minutes.

You are of course entitled to an opinion and you've expressed a few here. I agree with some of them, others have as well. But there is no merit in a monologue about "poor" cooks having to use lesser knives while others sit at home polishing their "Piggyfusas". The latter can only be seen as inflammatory and has no place here.


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## Timthebeaver (May 4, 2015)

The popularity of Shigefusa and Kiyoshi Kato knives stems from the fact that they are excellent examples of traditional Japanese craftsmanship. Who could fail to be impressed by Maxim's videos below?

[video=youtube;zNPc6xBBiLk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNPc6xBBiLk[/video]

[video=youtube;TgtFgJR-U_E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgtFgJR-U_E[/video]

While Kato is a relative newcomer to the forums, I think their reputation has been cemented by the fact that so many professionals have marked them out as unique performers. Certainly when "lasers" were in vogue a few years ago they would have probably been dismissed without trial.

Shigefusa has been on the radar for much longer, and I think is just about the only "flavour of the month" knife where the hype train has never been derailed. I think this is in part to their scarcity (although they are more readily available now, they used to be more difficult to procure), the craftsmanship aspect above. In addition, Shigefusa has long been considered a benchmark for consistency and F+F.

As for the collecting aspect, I think a better analogy is that if you told someone you bought a set of expensive spanners (wrenches) then spent time polishing them for the purpose of keeping them in their tool chest to look at, they may think you're a little odd. Although I don't understand whisky collectors who don't drink the stuff either (although at the very high end this can be a sensible investment, or at least was 10 years ago).

Personally I think kitchen knives that taint food are unfit for purpose. _Personally_ I wouldn't want a reactive, soft-iron clad knife as an all-rounder (which is how i view my gyuto). As others have mentioned - for the traditional Japanese patterns it makes more sense. If you can attenuate the reactivity of a very reactive knife, more power to you, but I have owned knives that cannot be passivated (and I am a Professor of Chemistry by trade :biggrin. I don't really agree with the "soft iron is so much better for sharpening" either. It's trivial to sharpen any decent monosteel or stainless-clad carbon knife imo.


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## ecchef (May 4, 2015)

I feel fortunate that I work in a place where if I accidently forgot my $$ (_fill in the blank_) knife in the kitchen overnight, it would be in exactly the same place the next day...only someone would have cleaned and dried it. 

I do have some knives that don't see the kitchen much; only when the other Chefs come around so I can win the inevitable peepee waving contest.  Personally, I don't own a piggyfusa but if one came along at the right price, I certainly would.


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## Geo87 (May 4, 2015)

Dave : fair enough, point taken. 

As my comment has been deleted i'd just like to clear one last thing up. I don't feel "poor cooks" have to use lesser knives. That's not what I said. There are not many knives I would call "lesser". I've seen plenty of well maintained low- mid range knives that cut far better than some highend knives. 

If we're talking about inflammatory comments your earlier comment "Maybe add a sub-forum Average knives for average guys that are on average better than average cooks" 
Felt pretty inflammatory to me. 
Although perhaps not as blunt as mine.


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## Adrian (May 4, 2015)

This has been an interesting thread. I was given a 270mm Shigefusa Yanigiba last year by friends from Australia who know of my interest in Japanese knives. I have used it quite a bit for sushi prep both in a pro kitchen (as owner playing at chef) and entertaining friends and colleagues. I have only used it on fish, wiped between each change of fish type, and have not had issues with reactivity. I don't know how much it cost, but I do know it was bought in Japan, not retail in Australia.

However, I also have a 330mm Shigeharu Yanagibe, which I bought myself directly from the shop / workshop in Kyoto. Having worked my way through about 20 blades. The standard of fit and finish of both blades is pretty equal, though the Shigefusa came with a better handle and a Saya. I did not have time to wait for a custom say to be made for the Shigeharu unfortunately. 

If I was forced to choose only one knife for sushi / sashimi it would be the Shigeharu every time. Partly perhaps it is that I prefer a long stroke knife, but other than that I can't really explain why one is better than the other. It is just a feeling. 

I do agree that price is not really a factor in good versus less good. If I am "working" I will usually choose a J carbon and appreciate the edge. If I am just doing some quick prep for a few minutes, then a stainless J knife tends to come out. These are invariably cheaper knives in my range of blades, but extremely functional and not what I would call second best really.


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## supersayan3 (May 4, 2015)

Lets face it gentlemen!

We men, are also forever boys or forever teenagers.
That means that we like toys and gadgets.
All men get fancy with something, a car, a bike, a sound system, a cell phone, a super wood and the tools that they can make a table in their free time, a knife...

A knife, if you are a pro, is a usefull tool. Not more useful than a thermomix, which is a well accomplished chef on its own, but a useful tool.
Appart from a useful tool, that helps you finish quicker and make your life easier, is also a pleasant toy and companion, in the stressful and 'industrial' kitchen environment. A look at it, a touch of it, creates pleasant emotion in you.

As to how good a knife, that is defined by three basic things:
1. What is your philosophy about life, consuming society, and what is important and of true meaning.
But if you have 10 medium price range knives(all the same style, exp.gyutos), I consider it more wise to have 3 expensive

Still an $85 knife(for example Masahiro Virgin Carbon) till $150 price range knife(exp.Pyusen Tsuchime) can cover you for the rest of your career.
(examples based on what I own and find satisfactory)

2. The type of kitchen you work in.
Is it an open kitchen, that everybody has his space and things are always in order and under control,
Is it a Gourmet kitchen, that everybody has the space and the station and things are under control
Is it a huge hotel preparation kitchen that things are not under control, but you have your space (there the knife is the number one tool)
or is it a busy busy small place that things are never under control, and the control is that you cover up in the way?(Here you dont bring your Shigefusha, somebody will damage it, and then you will take your Shigefusa, stab him screaming, and you will end up in jail  )

3. What is your taste of knives, and how much gravity you give to the meaning 'kitchen knife'. Or, if you are not that much philosophical person, how much obsessed you are with this thing called 'kitchen knife'

4. Had Sigmund Freud been participating in this thread, he would had said that the 'kitchen knife' is the phallic symbol of the cook.
I find nothing wrong in this, since we are cooks, we are men, and if it happens to be any woman in the kitchen-she has balls in order to be there!

In the current kitchen that I am headchef the last 2+ years, the biggest restaurant of my city, hectic place, we try to do decent to good job, we get good scores, bodies fall. I wouldnt put my most expensive knives there. I save them for later years, when I will return to more gourmet smaller kitchens, or you never know, even for a touristic season at a real grand hotel, to do 8 hours cutting, to recharge my batteries and play with my knives.

In the kitchen that I work now, I use 21cm Masahiro Mv-h(for lemons, limes, tomatoes), 21 cm Masahiro Virgin Carbon metal bolster [Top knife, not better to Hiromoto Aogami, but at the 21 cm version I enjoy it more than the 21cm Blazen9at 24cm I enjoy the Blazen more), this Masahiro knife can keep me covered for the rest of my cooking career, but I want more, to rotate, to play, to enjoy other goo knives as well), A hiromoto AS 20cm(divine!), a Blazen santoku, a Victorinox fibrox 30cm flexible salmon, a Masahiro Virgin Carbon m.b. Sujihiki 30cm, a Victorinox rosewood 19cm fish fillet flexible, and a very cheap Zwilling twin master meat fillet. All pretty cheap knives, with the exception of the Blazen santoku, all deliver perfect. You are there!

Still...there are even sweeter candies out there... it 's up to you and your choices.

I have neve seen a Shigefusa, or a Kato.
I bet they must be 'golden medal' knives.
Maybe sometime in the future, I will get the 'Shigefusa disease'...

You dont need such an expensive knife. Then again it will be a pleasure, if you consider it so.

Working with Masahiro Carbon and Hiromoto AS, doesnt give me any headache in a very busy kitchen. We have towels, I make them dry.
Once ore twice a week, I clean them with metal polish, and they shine. Also rubbing both my Masahiros right side on a 10000 grit stone, they became mirror polished. You have to respect the natural curves though


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## supersayan3 (May 4, 2015)

P.s I forgot to mention my 11cm serated Victorinox petty(for carton boxes), and my 6cm Masahiro MV birds peak(the square handle of it fits perfect in my palm)


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## supersayan3 (May 4, 2015)

And last, but not least, the ggod knife does not make the good cook, and vice versa.

The good Hamono makes the good knife
The good books make the good chef

So, while investing on knives, dont forget to invest in good books as well


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## supersayan3 (May 4, 2015)

preizzo said:


> I am not a lucky headchef... My employer are to aggressive, try to tech them how to take care of the knives but it s a waist of time, that why I will never bring at work my expensive knives.
> I would like to own some day one of them but just only if I will get a job in osteria francescana (which is my dream as Italian chef).
> Have a knife sitting in a box it s not right!!! As to be use!! &#128516;



I have the same problem. 
I find the idea to not touch each others knives, very very romantic!
Like not touching each others girlfriends!
Osteria Francescana is my favourite restaurant, together with Funky Gourmet(as a Greek chef ;-) )
I did a dessert in this menu, influenced by them , by the gravity effect. Artist and philosopher that Massimo guy


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## chefcomesback (May 4, 2015)

supersayan3 said:


> And last, but not least, the ggod knife does not make the good cook, and vice versa.
> 
> The good Hamono makes the good knife
> The good books make the good chef
> ...



Good hamono makes the good knife ?
Good books make the good chef ?


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## supersayan3 (May 4, 2015)

By Hamono, I meant the knife maker, except if i am wrong about the meaning of Hamono.
Experience, hours in the kitchen and good older chefs make the good chef. But I was referring to already professional chefs, with some years of experience.
Then, if you do some stages, and read lots of good cooking books and expirement, your horizon opens.
I am interested to hear your point of view, since you are a pro.
Please express yourself


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## chefcomesback (May 4, 2015)

Both examples are lot more complex than i can explain with few sentences


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## nutmeg (May 4, 2015)

Using Katos or Shige knives taught me to be extremely clean and respectful in service.


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## nutmeg (May 4, 2015)

With a Watanabe kintarou ame knife with engraving and inserted diamond on the blade near the cutting board, I know my service will be exceptional. Good concentration, respect, fairplay, cleanness, stressfree.

I believe the best knife makes a better chef.


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## supersayan3 (May 4, 2015)

nutmeg said:


> With a Watanabe kintarou ame knife with engraving and inserted diamond on the blade near the cutting board, I know my service will be exceptional. Good concentration, respect, fairplay, cleanness, stressfree.
> 
> I believe the best knife makes a better chef.



As a cook, I get happy to read such words. Purification through cooking.


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## chefcomesback (May 4, 2015)

Poor jiro and his crew must be struggling big time with their scratches up , old knives during service and mentally after the service , poor peasants


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## chiffonodd (May 4, 2015)

TheDispossessed said:


> I got a Kato a few months back and a Shig Kitaeji on the way in a few months.
> For me it was another step from which I now cannot turn back.
> 
> The past 10 years of my life in knives:
> ...



I am happily in stage three. Don't take this away from me lol


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## fimbulvetr (May 4, 2015)

chefcomesback said:


> Poor jiro and his crew must be struggling big time with their scratches up , old knives during service and mentally after the service , poor peasants



I'm relatively new to the forum, but, if you'll pardon an interloper offering his opinion, what you're responding to wasn't what was said. If someone tells me they're motivated by a thing, I try not to infer that they're knocking another's motivation. If I'm moved to be better by the fact that I don't want to eff up my expensive knife, that doesn't negate, denigrate, or vilify being moved to be better by tradition, my chef, or a box of Cheez-Its crackers.


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## chefcomesback (May 4, 2015)

Welcome to the forums , I have nothing to add to this thread


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## ThEoRy (May 4, 2015)

Why Shig or Kato? Because they cut damn well. That's why. Nuff said.


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## fimbulvetr (May 4, 2015)

chefcomesback said:


> Welcome to the forums , I have nothing to add to this thread



Hrm. Really wasn't trying to be a wang, nor to call anyone else one. Just that sussing others' motivations is hard and, ultimately, unrewarding.


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## Mute-on (May 4, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> Why Shig or Kato? Because they cut damn well. That's why. Nuff said.



+1

I also think they look nice, too 

Then again, I prefer brunettes. I think they look nice as well :wink:


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## labor of love (May 5, 2015)

Timthebeaver said:


> The popularity of Shigefusa and Kiyoshi Kato knives stems from the fact that they are excellent examples of traditional Japanese craftsmanship. Who could fail to be impressed by Maxim's videos below?
> 
> [video=youtube;zNPc6xBBiLk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNPc6xBBiLk[/video]
> 
> ...



Tim, 
thanks for sharing both of those videos. I cant believe I havent checked them out sooner. The Kato video especially is very impressive.


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## supersayan3 (May 5, 2015)

Actually I was meaning these words: *Good concentration, respect, fairplay, cleanness, stressfree.
*
But I liked and the rest as well, since they went together with these words

The whole pack raises the level


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## Timthebeaver (May 5, 2015)

labor of love said:


> Tim,
> thanks for sharing both of those videos. The Kato video especially is very impressive.



Agreed, quite amazing to watch the man work.


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## supersayan3 (May 5, 2015)

''Poor jiro and his crew must be struggling big time with their scratches up , old knives during service and mentally after the service , poor peasants ''

The samurai ate all the rice. Why samurai, you have to be a samurai?


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## preizzo (Mar 8, 2019)

Long time ago since I open this trade and things have changed a lot !!
Any other members change their minds to


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 8, 2019)

Funny preizzo, you have a ton more Katos!


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## Timthebeaver (Mar 8, 2019)

Not really.

Craftsmanship is first class.

Performance is unremarkable when compared to other blades.

Hype train is more crowded than ever.

QED.


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## QCDawg (Mar 8, 2019)

preizzo said:


> I am not a lucky headchef... My employer are to aggressive, try to tech them how to take care of the knives but it s a waist of time, that why I will never bring at work my expensive knives.
> I would like to own some day one of them but just only if I will get a job in osteria francescana (which is my dream as Italian chef).
> Have a knife sitting in a box it s not right!!! As to be use!! &#128516;


And that, Caro.. is why you have.. more Mazaki than anybody not named Naoki. Bless u.


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## preizzo (Mar 8, 2019)

QCDawg said:


> And that, Caro.. is why you have.. more Mazaki than anybody not named Naoki. Bless u.


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## labor of love (Mar 8, 2019)

Timthebeaver said:


> Not really.
> 
> Craftsmanship is first class.
> 
> ...


I’m noticing some shigs sitting around BST unsold for days and even a couple of weeks.


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 8, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I’m noticing some shigs sitting around BST unsold for days and even a couple of weeks.


Yep, perhaps a pause as these have doubled in price in the last couple of years. I’m sure you can remember when they were two hundred and change back in the day.


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## QCDawg (Mar 8, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I’m noticing some shigs sitting around BST unsold for days and even a couple of weeks.


Oh..I think the shig market will b just fine. Buy and hold.


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## labor of love (Mar 8, 2019)

QCDawg said:


> Oh..I think the shig market will b just fine. Buy and hold.


Nope the market is crashing. Sell! Sell! Sell! Haha


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## bahamaroot (Mar 8, 2019)

I've seen a lot more not so great reviews of Shigs in the last year. I think that has tempered people's desire to give up a kidney for them.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 8, 2019)

Shigs are appearing on Ebay with some regularity


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## swarth (Mar 13, 2019)

QCDawg said:


> Oh..I think the shig market will b just fine. Buy and hold.



Buy and use...I say.


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## Michi (Mar 13, 2019)

To me, the point of buying a knife is to use it and enjoy it. If I like the knife, I keep it. If I don't like it, I put it up for sale for a reasonable second-hand price and take the loss. Whether the knife cost little or a lot doesn't enter into the equation.

I can't see the point in worrying about whether a knife is now worth more or less than a year ago.

If it's worth more, I don't care. If I still own the knife a year later, that's because I like it and want to keep it, so selling it isn't even on my horizon.
If it's worth less, I don't care. If I still own the knife a year later, that's because I like it and want to keep it, so what the knife is worth is irrelevant because I enjoy using it.
I sell a knife if I decide that I want something fancier, or prettier, or longer, or shorter, or lighter, or different, or whatever. At that point, the knife is worth what it is worth right now and that's what I sell it for. The proceeds can go towards my upgrade/cross-grade/change.

I don't sell a knife to make a profit. To make money, it's much easier to just go to work instead…


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## DitmasPork (Mar 13, 2019)

preizzo said:


> There are many of good brand out there and mostly all the people inside this forum are always talking about those two producer!
> Why?they are really worth the money and the time? If you are a professional chef would you use 700usd knife in a professional busy kitchen? I am pretty sure that 70 %of the shigefusa around the word are sitting inside a box or just slicing few things every month



I'm not a pro chef—still use my Kato fairly regularly, don't see the point in keeping knives in a box—it's more than robust enough for a busy kitchen IMO. I bought it years ago, when they were available for a decent price. It's a wonderful knife, but if I had $700 (or whatever the going rate is), I would likely spend it on another maker's knife—prices are too inflated for my sensibilities. Katos are great knife, but not King Arthur's sword, just a very well-made tool.


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## Bcos17 (Mar 13, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I'm not a pro chef—still use my Kato fairly regularly, don't see the point in keeping knives in a box—it's more than robust enough for a busy kitchen IMO. I bought it years ago, when they were available for a decent price. It's a wonderful knife, but if I had $700 (or whatever the going rate is), I would likely spend it on another maker's knife—prices are too inflated for my sensibilities. Katos are great knife, but not King Arthur's sword, just a very well-made tool.



Thats fair. I wish I could be so levelheaded about it, but as someone with an affinity for heavier Japanese knives with a thick spine, its hard to get away from the idea that a Kato might be the absolute perfect knife for my tastes. I have 2 Mazaki's and a Toyama, but outside of those two, Watanabe, Heiji, I run out of similarly styled knives to search out and try. So I keep coming back to Kato and wondering when someone might post one in BST at a price I can stomach. Are they far better than the other brands I've mentioned, probably not, but wondering if they might be is a strong force. I just wish I had picked one up 4 or 5 years ago when it could have been acquired for a much more reasonable cost.


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## DitmasPork (Mar 13, 2019)

I also dig beefier, thicker spined gyutos—besides Kato I have a couple of Mazakis, a Kochi, and couple of Watanabes—Kato having the most distinctively thick spine of what I have. Would love to get my hands on a Kippington workhorse—believe it was influenced by the Kato workhorse. Whether Katos or Shigs are 'far better,' that's the making of a long opinionated thread (maybe this one!). Love my Kato—but if I had $700, I'd get a custom (plus another petty) from one of the talented knife makers actively producing. Can't remember exactly what I paid for the Kato in 2013, maybe $500—anything charged above that is certainly a premium for rarity—which there's nothing wrong with, simple supply and demand economic.


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## tgfencer (Mar 13, 2019)

Bcos17 said:


> Thats fair. I wish I could be so levelheaded about it, but as someone with an affinity for heavier Japanese knives with a thick spine, its hard to get away from the idea that a Kato might be the absolute perfect knife for my tastes. I have 2 Mazaki's and a Toyama, but outside of those two, Watanabe, Heiji, I run out of similarly styled knives to search out and try. So I keep coming back to Kato and wondering when someone might post one in BST at a price I can stomach. Are they far better than the other brands I've mentioned, probably not, but wondering if they might be is a strong force. I just wish I had picked one up 4 or 5 years ago when it could have been acquired for a much more reasonable cost.



Try a forged geometry Catcheside. Not Japanese, I know, but in many ways they're supercharged versions of Heiji. They tend to be heavy, have thick spines, forged hollowed flats, and Heiji-esque bevels but without the wedgy shoulders.


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## bahamaroot (Mar 13, 2019)

Bcos17 said:


> ...I just wish I had picked one up 4 or 5 years ago when it could have been acquired for a much more reasonable cost.


You are among a trove of us singing that tune. If we only knew then what we know now....


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## DitmasPork (Mar 13, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> You are among a trove of us singing that tune. If we only knew then what we know now....



If only I bought sh**tonne of Apple shares in 1980 with their IPO (I was in high school); if only I bought my ex-girlfriend's NYC apartment, selling cheap in a dodgy neighborhood that's now become an over-priced hipster heaven; and if only I held onto my Peter Max 'yellow submarine' lunch pale when I was a child. Regrets.

IMO, from a collecting perspective, missing out on knives before they become pricey and rare is not a bad thing. Stirs up that 'gotta have it' desire, makes knives coveted, keeps things exciting—just read through the 31 pages of the 'Kato Alert' thread. I can't pretend that I don't feel satisfaction on getting a Kato, KS and Kono Fujiyama early on—knowing that they've appreciated in value and popularity, bare in mind that I've also bought a number of knives that aren't very good IMO (...anyone wanna buy an 11 inch Wustof in perfect condition I have laying around??). I do kick myself on not getting a Devin Thomas ITK or Western handled Kato when they were available—keeps me yearning.


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## Michi (Mar 13, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I can't pretend that I don't feel satisfaction on getting a Kato, KS and Kono Fujiyama early on—knowing that they've appreciated in value and popularity


Well, the knife is worth more now. But I'm pretty sure that it doesn't cut any better because of that 

Are you looking to get rid of your KS? If not, why does it matter what it is worth?

I'm not trying to deny you your sense of satisfaction. "I bought something that I really like at a price much lower than what I would have to pay now." That's a legit thought. But, really, the price change is irrelevant _unless_ you are trying to buy or sell.


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## chunter1001 (Mar 13, 2019)

Perhaps off topic, but is JNS the only place to find new Kato gyutos? I haven't seen new stock roll in since the email Shig/Kato stock notification list stopped.


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## DitmasPork (Mar 13, 2019)

Michi said:


> Well, the knife is worth more now. But I'm pretty sure that it doesn't cut any better because of that
> 
> Are you looking to get rid of your KS? If not, why does it matter what it is worth?
> 
> I'm not trying to deny you your sense of satisfaction. "I bought something that I really like at a price much lower than what I would have to pay now." That's a legit thought. But, really, the price change is irrelevant _unless_ you are trying to buy or sell.



Not planning on getting rid of the KS. Valuation is not a priority for me, but I’m aware if it for knives—as well as for food, real estate, artworks, etc. Being aware of value just gives it a monetary context for me, nothing more. Didn’t buy the Kato or KS because thought they’d appreciate, got them for other reasons.


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## bahamaroot (Mar 13, 2019)

I only regret not buying a Kato in the past because of what I will have to pay if I get one now. I bought a KS back then and the appreciation on that one means nothing to me, I never plan to sell it. It would have been the same with a Kato had I made that leap. Back then I never would have guessed these knives would become so scarce and appreciate so much. Which is why I waited unfortunately.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 14, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> I've seen a lot more not so great reviews of Shigs in the last year.



[citation needed] 

Im not calling you out on it. I'd like to see what you are referring to if it is at hand??

Nobody lives forever. Both Kato-san and Iizuka-san are beyond retirement age. In the case of Shigefusa, the two sons have been part of production for years. I wonder how many knifes Iizuka-san is still producting? The son's can take over the family trade. I don't know of any direct succession for Kato-san?

Anyway... I can see variation being caused by both age and production shifting away from the head-blacksmith.




bahamaroot said:


> I think that has tempered people's desire to give up a kidney for them.



Alternative hypothesis: How far away are we from peak J-knife?

Perhaps now that the market has been open to the west for many years, the market has matured. In fact it is global. Interest in hand-made kitchen knives is global - there has also be an increase in western small-scale blacksmiths. Perhaps the fact that there are so many options compared to 5 or 10 years ago is tempering peoples desires to give up a kidney. Why give up a kidney when you can give up a toe and get a similarly interesting meal?



It can be fun discussing what separates price and value - but there is no right answer to the value question. Each to their own!


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## Luftmensch (Mar 14, 2019)

preizzo said:


> Long time ago since I open this trade and things have changed a lot !!
> Any other members change their minds to



Hey @preizzo... why don't you add a little more detail to keep the ball rolling... For context:



preizzo said:


> There are many of good brand out there and mostly all the people inside this forum are always talking about those two producer!
> Why?they are really worth the money and the time?



It seems like you have made that pilgrimage:



Chicagohawkie said:


> Funny preizzo, you have a ton more Katos!



So?? @preizzo... Whats your perspective now compared to almost four years ago? In what way did you change your mind??


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## preizzo (Mar 15, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> Hey @preizzo... why don't you add a little more detail to keep the ball rolling... For context:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since then all my prospective changes about this two makers.
Back then my experiences with Japanese knives were limited to kurosaki, masamoto, oishi, inazuma, misono, Kramer, Blazen, etc....all pretty commercial knives (all good anyway)
I still remember the first day I have tried a Kato and a shighefusa. Was the same day, got a Kato wh and a shighefusa 240 gyuto at the same time on the way to my work. I was tottaly blown away by the prestetion.
The Kato was amazing and the shighefusa also. I was instantly trap in the high and Japanese knives.!! I start to understand the passion and the kraft man labor these Olds smith's put in there blades. Since then I constantly use high end knives in a pro kitchen.


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## Cyrilix (Mar 15, 2019)

preizzo said:


> Since then all my prospective changes about this two makers.
> Back then my experiences with Japanese knives were limited to kurosaki, masamoto, oishi, inazuma, misono, Kramer, Blazen, etc....all pretty commercial knives (all good anyway)
> I still remember the first day I have tried a Kato and a shighefusa. Was the same day, got a Kato wh and a shighefusa 240 gyuto at the same time on the way to my work. I was tottaly blown away by the prestetion.
> The Kato was amazing and the shighefusa also. I was instantly trap in the high and Japanese knives.!! I start to understand the passion and the kraft man labor these Olds smith's put in there blades. Since then I constantly use high end knives in a pro kitchen.



Why were you blown away? What was wrong with the other knives?


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## preizzo (Mar 15, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Why were you blown away? What was wrong with the other knives?


Grind, shape, thickness of the spwand steel,but Most was the grind


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## preizzo (Mar 15, 2019)

*spine


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## Cyrilix (Mar 15, 2019)

preizzo said:


> Grind, shape, thickness of the spwand steel,but Most was the grind


Do you see yourself able to reproduce this grind on all of your knives so that they all cut the same way (provided the profile is similar)?

A knife's grind will change over the years from sharpening, so it's easy to lose the original grind over time. On the other hand, this means that a good grind can be replicated by an experienced sharpener.

By the way, I also like knives with a little heft on the spine, as long as they cut really well where it counts. They just feel solid and Watanabe's knives are pretty solid in that respect. Curious if you like Watanabe's grind.


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## Elliot (Mar 16, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> Perhaps now that the market has been open to the west for many years, the market has matured. In fact it is global. Interest in hand-made kitchen knives is global - there has also be an increase in western small-scale blacksmiths. Perhaps the fact that there are so many options compared to 5 or 10 years ago is tempering peoples desires to give up a kidney. Why give up a kidney when you can give up a toe and get a similarly interesting meal?



I think this is the distinction between what is a good cutter for the typical chef or passionate home cook vs. the added romance for those of us that are not exclusively chasing performance. Yes, I do prefer the performance of my Kato's to damn near anything else I have. However, I do fully concede that it's not proportional to cost and this is not simply about carrots and onions. While I have spent a ton of time and money, like many of you, adding Kato's, Shigs, expensive honyaki and the such to my own collection, I think that those who say it's just because they're "better knives," may be exaggerating. 

Are these knives *three or four times* as good as a Wakui, Watanabe or other very strong performers? I think that's up for debate, of course, but I have to lean toward "no." 

So, if you're looking for a really good knife and your one and only interest is performance -- sure -- save yourself $500+ and get a Wakui, Mazaki or something in that price point. It is what I tell friends to do when they ask for a "really good Japanese knife."


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## 5698k (Mar 16, 2019)

I have to agree. After trying a number of what would be considered good Japanese knives, I tried a Toyama. I was hooked. It’s still a favorite, it’s what I want to reach for. 

Recently I had the opportunity to buy a Kato WH, and I jumped on it. It’s an incredible knife, I see what the fuss is all about. 

Is it worth four times the Toyama as far as pure performance? I think not. Am I disappointed in any way with the Kato? No, I’m glad I got it, and I believe that anyone willing to spend the money would be glad to have one also.


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## QCDawg (Mar 16, 2019)

Mazaki is strong. Incredible bang for the $$. And I know people and professional kitchens that absolutely beat them to death. Good size. 210’s run 225, 240’s run 250. Tall too.... Wakui great “value” pick (man.. we have issues when $200 knives are “value”) . Wakui thinner... sexier, better F&F.

Next $$$ level up is Watanabe’s / Toyama’s domain. Don’t know if they are better. But certainly different. Better Sakai shops (Hide, Shigehiro, Ikeda) start to enter this price point too.. I’m just Sanjo > Sakai. My Shig 210 sure is sweet.

I like my new Kaeru for a fully stainless inexpensive “upgrade” to a Misono or whatever. I sound like a JNS advertisement.


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## Cyrilix (Mar 16, 2019)

5698k said:


> I have to agree. After trying a number of what would be considered good Japanese knives, I tried a Toyama. I was hooked. It’s still a favorite, it’s what I want to reach for.
> 
> Recently I had the opportunity to buy a Kato WH, and I jumped on it. It’s an incredible knife, I see what the fuss is all about.
> 
> Is it worth four times the Toyama as far as pure performance? I think not. Am I disappointed in any way with the Kato? No, I’m glad I got it, and I believe that anyone willing to spend the money would be glad to have one also.


That's fair. I'm not looking for 4x the Toyama. If you even think it's not worse than the Toyama for a majority of tasks, then I would consider it. If at least a majority of the tasks, you'd opt to go for the Toyama over it, I probably wouldn't even consider it, given the price or it would be one of those "collect one and done" just to say that I have it.


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## 5698k (Mar 16, 2019)

If you told me I could only pick one, with prices for each equal to what they are now, and bang for the buck being a consideration, I’m going with the Toyama. If money isn’t as much a consideration, get the Kato.


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 16, 2019)

egolan said:


> I think this is the distinction between what is a good cutter for the typical chef or passionate home cook vs. the added romance for those of us that are not exclusively chasing performance. Yes, I do prefer the performance of my Kato's to damn near anything else I have. However, I do fully concede that it's not proportional to cost and this is not simply about carrots and onions. While I have spent a ton of time and money, like many of you, adding Kato's, Shigs, expensive honyaki and the such to my own collection, I think that those who say it's just because they're "better knives," may be exaggerating.
> 
> Are these knives *three or four times* as good as a Wakui, Watanabe or other very strong performers? I think that's up for debate, of course, but I have to lean toward "no."
> 
> So, if you're looking for a really good knife and your one and only interest is performance -- sure -- save yourself $500+ and get a Wakui, Mazaki or something in that price point. It is what I tell friends to do when they ask for a "really good Japanese knife."




Well put, the only time your going to see a 100 percent jump in performance is going to be when you go from a butter knife to a 200 Wakui. Once you get to a wakui level knife, you may see small percentage jumps in performance in knives costing thousands of dollars. A thing to remember is there are many very expensive knives that will not cut as well as a very nice Wakui.


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## Elliot (Mar 16, 2019)

QCDawg said:


> Mazaki is strong. Incredible bang for the $$. And I know people and professional kitchens that absolutely beat them to death. Good size. 210’s run 225, 240’s run 250. Tall too.... Wakui great “value” pick (man.. we have issues when $200 knives are “value”) . Wakui thinner... sexier, better F&F.
> 
> Next $$$ level up is Watanabe’s / Toyama’s domain. Don’t know if they are better. But certainly different. Better Sakai shops (Hide, Shigehiro, Ikeda) start to enter this price point too.. I’m just Sanjo > Sakai. My Shig 210 sure is sweet.
> 
> I like my new Kaeru for a fully stainless inexpensive “upgrade” to a Misono or whatever. I sound like a JNS advertisement.



It is far from cheap, BUT, the best stainless I have ever used is leaps and bounds the SLD dammy from Yoshikane. In fact, and I know some will chastise, but it is among the top three to four cutters I have. This includes several Kato's in different steels, Shigs, honyaki from Togashi, Ikeda and Genkai and a lot of other knives that I have been fortunate enough to play with.


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## labor of love (Mar 16, 2019)

egolan said:


> It is far from cheap, BUT, the best stainless I have ever used is leaps and bounds the SLD dammy from Yoshikane. In fact, and I know some will chastise, but it is among the top three to four cutters I have. This includes several Kato's in different steels, Shigs, honyaki from Togashi, Ikeda and Genkai and a lot of other knives that I have been fortunate enough to play with.


Yeah, my western yoshi sld is really nice. Are you referring to the wa version?
They seem different enough that I might be able to justify owning both


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## HRC_64 (Mar 16, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> ...A thing to remember is there are many very expensive knives that will not cut as well as a very nice Wakui.



also people need to remember that shig reputation was made as a $400 knife


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## Elliot (Mar 16, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Yeah, my western yoshi sld is really nice. Are you referring to the wa version?
> They seem different enough that I might be able to justify owning both



Yeah, it’s the wa handle. Got it some time back from Bernal. 

Sometimes, I don’t want the romance of a Kato—I just want something that slays. Not to minimize any of the Kato I have, but if I am being brutally honest, the Yoshikane is simply a better cutter than any of them or my Shigs. 

It’s come to the point where I have sold/am selling all my stainless with the exception of that and a Takamura Uchi that’s also a standout performer.


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## Elliot (Mar 16, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> also people need to remember that shig reputation was made as a $400 knife



So true. Though cost and rarity has made them appear in the same family, I don’t consider double bevel Shigefusa to be in the same hemisphere as Kato.


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 16, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> also people need to remember that shig reputation was made as a $400 knife


Yes, go back to 2011 or 2012 and you could get both shigs and katos for 250 bucks. In 2016 you could buy Shig 210 Kasumi knifes for 350.


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## never mind (Mar 16, 2019)

egolan said:


> ...ever used is leaps and bounds the SLD dammy from Yoshikane....



you have a lot of awesome knives. If you don’t mind me asking, have you tried and played with devin thomas aeb-l and marko tsourkan stainless knives? Are they leaps and bounds behind yoshikane sld dammy from your view for stainless knives?


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## bahamaroot (Mar 16, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> also people need to remember that shig reputation was made as a $400 knife


As was Kato.


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## Elliot (Mar 16, 2019)

never mind said:


> you have a lot of awesome knives. If you don’t mind me asking, have you tried and played with devin thomas aeb-l and marko tsourkan stainless knives? Are they leaps and bounds behind yoshikane sld dammy from your view for stainless knives?



I have not. I have used aebl before, but not from those smiths. I am confident that aebl from Dalman will eventually be my favorite stainless—once I can finally track one down, that is. 

I have not used any knives from Thomas or Tsourkan. I’ve heard good things.


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## Wdestate (Mar 17, 2019)

egolan said:


> It is far from cheap, BUT, the best stainless I have ever used is leaps and bounds the SLD dammy from Yoshikane. In fact, and I know some will chastise, but it is among the top three to four cutters I have. This includes several Kato's in different steels, Shigs, honyaki from Togashi, Ikeda and Genkai and a lot of other knives that I have been fortunate enough to play with.



I agree with this would take my sld yoshi over Any Kato or shig I have used ,


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## Itsjun (Mar 17, 2019)

Anyway what cause the inflation of shig?
I'm new to this brand/maker. 
Due to over demand less supply or the maker is retiring and stuff?


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## bahamaroot (Mar 17, 2019)

Itsjun said:


> Anyway what cause the inflation of shig?
> I'm new to this brand/maker.
> Due to over demand less supply or the maker is retiring and stuff?


Reputation coupled with limited supply and the fact that the smith is older and could retire at any time are the main factors.


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## Timthebeaver (Mar 17, 2019)

Wdestate said:


> I agree with this would take my sld yoshi over Any Kato or shig I have used ,



I also agree.


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