# Kikuryu?



## YG420 (May 13, 2016)

I was wondering if someone could shed some light as to what exactly makes kikuryu so unique and different from typical damascus? Like the differences in heat treat, durability, layers, type of steel, etc. Also, does anyone has any pointers on how to make the patterns come alive a bit more would be very helpful as well. Ive attached a pic of a lil polishing I did tonight, still trying to get my technique down. Thanks!


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## maxim (May 13, 2016)

I just answered same question in email  
Kikuryu is different mixture then damascus or kitaeji, Kato uses iron and steel for cladding. 
Heat treatment is same as workhorse knives. but cladding is bit harder then his other knives 
Pattern is supost to be very light with many layers and not as visible as damascus.


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## YG420 (May 13, 2016)

Thanks for your input Maksim!


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## aboynamedsuita (May 13, 2016)

Yours looks a lot the the polished one I got you can see larger layers (darker lines) but when you look closer under the correct lighting you can see the subtle layers. I want I get another one and a workhorse too :knife:


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## bkultra (May 13, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Yours looks a lot the the polished one I got you can see larger layers (darker lines) but when you look closer under the correct lighting you can see the subtle layers. I want I get another one and a workhorse too :knife:



Picture of said knife


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## Sharpchef (May 13, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Yours looks a lot the the polished one I got you can see larger layers (darker lines) but when you look closer under the correct lighting you can see the subtle layers. I want I get another one and a workhorse too :knife:



why? because it is a kato or what?.

I own two kato knifes one workhorse one in his specs. And the only thing that makes them unique is the grind, nothing else. All the other specs are just like all other japanese knives...... just 50% of you can get.

Btw. i know if i say/write something like this, some people might get angry, but it is just what it is, just a japanese knive, dedicateted for very carfully pushcut motion. 

greets Sebastian.


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## TheDispossessed (May 13, 2016)

Well if that's really what you believe then you're the fool for spending so much money on them. I've been on this forum three years and I'm glad to finally hear the truth, all Japanese knives are actually the same! Wow, I guess we're all way off here. Thanks for the enlightenment


Sharpchef said:


> why? because it is a kato or what?.
> 
> I own two kato knifes one workhorse one in his specs. And the only thing that makes them unique is the grind, nothing else. All the other specs are just like all other japanese knives...... just 50% of you can get.
> 
> ...


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## Sharpchef (May 13, 2016)

This is exactly what i have expected!

I think the Kato knives are very good, don`T get me wrong..... But as other Japanese knives just good for the dedicated task. Don`t get me wrong i love especially my Kato Shirogami gyuto, this one really kicks butt!. Compared to my other Japanese knives (Yoshihiro, Tanaka, Doi, Togashi) the katos have way better edge retention and are quite stable. Thats for shure, but compared to western semi custom/custom knives they will loose the most competition. 

They just are what they are, push cut dedicated knives...... Like the traditional ones... and yes all of them are quite comparable.

Greets Sebastian.


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## DamageInc (May 13, 2016)

So you are saying that they have a nice grind and very good edge retention and are stable. And you poke fun at people who want them?

I don't really understand why you have to jump into a thread and turn the discussion into something else entirely.


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## Sharpchef (May 13, 2016)

I just wan`T to say, they are good knives compared to other japanese ones, maybe shigs can compare to this kind of quality, nothing else (that i know). Japanese traditonal forging technique, good quality (but it can be made way better, with matching steel and knowledge). If i want a real workhorse, i would choose a ZKRamer Carbon or a custom made by a german blacksmith or some of the fantastic bladesmiths in USA, and never ever a Japanese knive.

I got many Japanese knives, not for my business, just for a relaxed homecooking, nothing else.

Greets SEbastian.


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## chinacats (May 13, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> This is exactly what i have expected!
> 
> I think the Kato knives are very good, don`T get me wrong..... But as other Japanese knives just good for the dedicated task. Don`t get me wrong i love especially my Kato Shirogami gyuto, this one really kicks butt!. Compared to my other Japanese knives (Yoshihiro, Tanaka, Doi, Togashi) the katos have way better edge retention and are quite stable. Thats for shure, but compared to western semi custom/custom knives they will loose the most competition.
> 
> ...



I've not used a shiro Kato (I've owned and used a couple other workhorses), but find it quite surprising that you get better edge retention with white steel on anything vs some other knives...though you don't mention the steel makeup of those knives. The best shirogami h/t will not last as long as other less pure steels with equally well done h/t.

I'm not against someone knocking Kato (not a huge fan myself), but to say they are like every other J-knife you are clearly not thinking straight or possibly just lack the experience to know the difference.

Cheers


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## Sharpchef (May 13, 2016)

I am very sorry, my english is not the best, you may understand something wrong.

Japanese knives are really bad for tasks like rock chopping, what i do nearly every time, at work.

Kato Knives are very good and especially the Shirogami Version of his knives is outstanding too all other Shirogami knives i had so far (Tanaka, Doi, Togashi, Yoshisada, Kamo To).
My Workhorse (it may be just the weight (about 90 gr. more) that causes the worse edge retention i dont know......) is way worse for any kind of task.

I like knifes out of high carbon tungsten steel (like 1.2562/F2) that hold the edge as long as i need it for one day or more.

As i blacksmith myself, with very little knowledge, i can forge a kitchen knife that can at least compare with Kato, mainly edge retention (this is easy, because i can use better steel for this task, with scientific knowledge and no traditional approach), the grind is something that nearly nobody can do this way, but similar is no problem for a good knifemaker (not me). So every Bladesmith with reputation/knowledge can match up witch guys like kato shigefusa etc., and can make a better knive then i can for shure.

I just want to say, the japanese traditional forging methodes are someting old, not up to date....

Greets Sebastian.


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## Chicagohawkie (May 13, 2016)

Oh boy!


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## bkultra (May 13, 2016)

Technique should dictate what tools you prefer... If you rock chop you would be better suited to find a knife that has more belly in its profile, Japanese or not. I do find it odd Sharpchef that you prefer your standard Kato (and call the workhorse "crap") because the workhorse has more belly and the standard is very flat (kind of goes against what you have been saying you prefer).


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## andur (May 13, 2016)

What you're saying Sebastian is with good machines and tools and metallurgy understanding it's not that difficult to properly heat treat a given steel?


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## Smurfmacaw (May 13, 2016)




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## jmgray (May 13, 2016)

This is gonna get interesting


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## chinacats (May 13, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> Kato Knives are very good and especially the Shirogami Version of his knives is outstanding too all other Shirogami knives i had so far (Tanaka, Doi, Togashi, Yoshisada, Kamo To).



Curious where you found a Shirogami Tanaka...I want one! OK, maybe not but just curious as his blue 2 is outstanding (without regard to his cladding).


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## YG420 (May 13, 2016)

bkultra said:


> Picture of said knife



Wow yours looks more detailed! Very nice! I wonder if Maksim did a lil etching? Have you took any fingerstones to it yet?


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## aboynamedsuita (May 13, 2016)

bkultra said:


> Picture of said knife





YG420 said:


> Wow yours looks more detailed! Very nice! I wonder if Maksim did a lil etching? Have you took any fingerstones to it yet?



That's the one Maksim did the jnat polish on, I know because it used to be mine :happymug:

Not gonna lie I kinda miss it, but it alowed me to buy the Kurouchi Kato gyuto and have some $ left over for some HRB and another project. I'd buy another one again and a workhorse too if I get the JNS email in time :viking:


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## ash987 (May 13, 2016)

Well since this thread is totally derailed, I'll bite. I have a Fujiwara Denka that is a blue 2 rock chopping monster. It has more belly than any other guyto I own and retains one hell of an edge. I promise you that all j-knives don't drive the same. 

The fun thing about kitchen knives is that you get to use them to do something you love and have a kickass tool to boot. Every collector gets to seek out their favorite ones. That's what makes it fun.


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## Matus (May 13, 2016)

maxim said:


> I just answered same question in email
> Kikuryu is different mixture then damascus or kitaeji, Kato uses iron and steel for cladding.
> Heat treatment is same as workhorse knives. but cladding is bit harder then his other knives
> Pattern is supost to be very light with many layers and not as visible as damascus.



That sounds a bit (I am guessing here) like the cladding on damascus Billipp knives. Andy also uses blade steels for the damascus (different from the core steel though) and so while the HT is tuned for the core steel, the cladding also partially hardens.


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## preizzo (May 13, 2016)

Hi Sebastián 
If you don't like your kato I will buy it with pleasure &#128514;&#128514;&#128521;
Cheers matteo


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## Sharpchef (May 14, 2016)

andur said:


> What you're saying Sebastian is with good machines and tools and metallurgy understanding it's not that difficult to properly heat treat a given steel?



Exactly, i can use/read many scientific reasarches, or just the so called Stahlschlüssel (Steelkey, a book with tempering infos of nearly all known steels here in europe), put the blade (if not forged, just for stock removal knives, if forged i have to do some heat treatment circles, but they are also known) to a tempering ofen, wait the asumed time, and harden in tempered oil, thats it, not really complicated........

After this just anneal at the given temp. and i got a good knife, not that complicated.

The Japanese Bladesmiths with much experience do it in their forging fire, and this also leads to good knives, no questions here.

Main problem with Japanes knives (especially the traditionally ones) is the lacking edge retention on plastic boards that i have to use at work, my chopping/rock chopping cutting motion etc. And also i can not care of the iron claddings all the time, so most J knives start to rust at once + i can not cut anything in european kitchen, maybe fruits for salad, doesn`T work for me, as i like to use one knife (mostly gyuto with about 12 inch for 95% of my tasks).

At home i like to use Japanese ones, no problem at all.:surrendar:

For a nice finish on your Kikuryu or Damascus Blades i recommend using fine Sandingpaper (like MicroMesh up to 12000) and then edge in instant coffee, for good contrast, after this you can use Steelwool to refine the surface.

Greets Sebastian.


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