# Massdrop- Diamond Stones



## Dominick Maone (Aug 24, 2021)

Thought? Would be nice to have a set of super vitrified diamonds or something like that in massdrop style.


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## jwthaparc (Aug 24, 2021)

sounds cool to me.


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## DHunter86 (Aug 24, 2021)

Would be interested in the details. Had planned to buy a 5mm thick one at the end of the year.


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## captaincaed (Aug 25, 2021)

I'm game


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## M1k3 (Aug 25, 2021)

@nakiriknaifuwaifu @Deadboxhero


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## Bolek (Aug 25, 2021)

I am interested


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Aug 25, 2021)

Certainly something like this could be managed, but what would be the unique attraction to a massdropped stone vs. folks going and buying one at their preferred grit?

I've considered stones previously so happy to discuss the topic. Feel free to send me a PM.


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## M1k3 (Aug 25, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Certainly something like this could be managed, but what would be the unique attraction to a massdropped stone vs. folks going and buying one at their preferred grit?
> 
> I've considered stones previously so happy to discuss the topic. Feel free to send me a PM.


Bulk discount? Fancy KKF/BBB stylized branding?


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## Bolek (Aug 25, 2021)

To be honest I make an attempt to buy #1000 and #3000 grit VDS from practical sharpening with no respons when they'll be aviable. BTW I am happy with their #400 #6000 and especialy #2000


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## Dominick Maone (Aug 25, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Certainly something like this could be managed, but what would be the unique attraction to a massdropped stone vs. folks going and buying one at their preferred grit?
> 
> I've considered stones previously so happy to discuss the topic. Feel free to send me a PM.


I think it would have to be a set of stones. Low grit, mid grit, finisher. Seems like more and more of these higher vanadium steels around.

Some of the super vitrified stones are 450 each. Maybe a massdrop of 3 grits, $1000. I would think a lot of people would be in. But of course, BBB or someone with a supplier would need to be involved.

Obviously I do not want to divert sales from anyone, but this may be beneficial to the buyers, the middle man, and the manufacturer.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Aug 25, 2021)

I suspect the margins on those stones are probably pretty thin and to get a sufficient number to make it a "mass" drop would probably require a substantial up front investment for the supplier.

I may be totally wrong though.


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## TB_London (Aug 25, 2021)

I find it surprising when industrial diamond is so cheap that these stones cost so much - is the tooling and process needed so much more than if shapton just used diamond grit in a glass stone instead of their usual abrasive that the cost would octuple.
I know the diamond vitirified stones are made differently to glass stones etc but that seems to be to preserve the diamond and reduce wear. In the small micron sizes is it really cost effective?


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## captaincaed (Aug 25, 2021)

I bet flattening is a major chore ans cost. The binder is crazy hard


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## Barmoley (Aug 25, 2021)

Diamond stones


2. A soft stone can be thicker than harder stone and still wear out faster, so bonding is key for any stone. You are right but for same technology if you add thickness you extend lifespan (as doublethick Shapton500 or King last twice as the standart one).




www.kitchenknifeforums.com










Can vitrified diamond stones be flattened?


This question was inspired by an offering of a Practical Sharpening 400 grit vitrified diamond stone on BST, but of course I know not to mess with offerings there, and anyway, I have and love vitrified diamond stones, so am the last one to dissuade someone from such a purchase, especially at...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Quality vit diamond stones are expensive, but last much longer than regular synthetic stones, cut all steels and stay flat for a very long time. If you want one set of stones, these will work very well and last a long time. In the long run you spend less money. On the other hand if you like stones and playing with all types then vit stones don’t make as much sense from the price perspective. They are still needed to effectively sharpen high wear resistant steels.


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## memorael (Aug 26, 2021)

Are you all aware of micro fissures due to diamond stones?


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## M1k3 (Aug 26, 2021)

memorael said:


> Are you all aware of micro fissures due to diamond stones?


?


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## jwthaparc (Aug 26, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> I think it would have to be a set of stones. Low grit, mid grit, finisher. Seems like more and more of these higher vanadium steels around.
> 
> Some of the super vitrified stones are 450 each. Maybe a massdrop of 3 grits, $1000. I would think a lot of people would be in. But of course, BBB or someone with a supplier would need to be involved.
> 
> Obviously I do not want to divert sales from anyone, but this may be beneficial to the buyers, the middle man, and the manufacturer.


Man.... I know 1000 dollars is a deal for these stones, but man. I just literally don't have the money.


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## memorael (Aug 26, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> ?


So a while back, the straight razor people started noticing that when using a DMT plate for bevel setting, chips would later form. So some mad scientist did this study about sharpening using diamonds and the conclusion is that diamonds will basically embed into the knife so deeply that the forces generated would crack the edge and form extremely tiny fissures that eventually would form a chip and depending on the hardness and material sometimes it would keep growing until it was visible. I would recommend using Diamonds for sharpening at very steep angles just to form an edge to save time but sometimes the risk is just to great when sharpening some of the higher HRC knives.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Aug 26, 2021)

memorael said:


> So a while back, the straight razor people started noticing that when using a DMT plate for bevel setting, chips would later form. So some mad scientist did this study about sharpening using diamonds and the conclusion is that diamonds will basically embed into the knife so deeply that the forces generated would crack the edge and form extremely tiny fissures that eventually would form a chip and depending on the hardness and material sometimes it would keep growing until it was visible. I would recommend using Diamonds for sharpening at very steep angles just to form an edge to save time but sometimes the risk is just to great when sharpening some of the higher HRC knives.



I'd like to see a link to that study.


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## M1k3 (Aug 26, 2021)

memorael said:


> So a while back, the straight razor people started noticing that when using a DMT plate for bevel setting, chips would later form. So some mad scientist did this study about sharpening using diamonds and the conclusion is that diamonds will basically embed into the knife so deeply that the forces generated would crack the edge and form extremely tiny fissures that eventually would form a chip and depending on the hardness and material sometimes it would keep growing until it was visible. I would recommend using Diamonds for sharpening at very steep angles just to form an edge to save time but sometimes the risk is just to great when sharpening some of the higher HRC knives.


Interesting. Makes sense with plates. The bond on the abrasive is really strong with them. Curious if resin and vitrified have the same problem.


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## Kippington (Aug 26, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Curious if resin and vitrified have the same problem.


In my experience, it still happens. It has to do with stress concentrations formed by the super sharp edges on the diamonds.

Other abrasives are more prone to rounding over (blunting), and so their cutting action isn't so harsh. Diamonds tend to stay sharp, so they gouge out sharper grooves into the steel. The grooves are the main starting points for micro-cracks to seed - where lateral forces get concentrated.

On the flip side, diamond abrasives gouging out deep scratches are what we like about them. They work fast and form a toothy edge.


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## Kippington (Aug 26, 2021)

I should also mention, it's well known in the optics world that diamond abrasives will cause micro-cracking.

I believe this link skips to the correct part, where he explains what diamonds do to a surface of a glass lens. Further on in the video, he removes the micro-cracks:


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## captaincaed (Aug 26, 2021)

Huh. This is a little disappointing. However, sounds like it may be less of an issue _in practice _for knives, but is a practical disadvantage for very fine applications like razors and optics. Really interesting points raised.


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## Barmoley (Aug 26, 2021)

Interesting. Would love to see the link to this study too. Seems odd given that diamonds are used on commercial scale to sharpen all sorts of high wear steels. I've read that CBN is gentler in general because of its shape. Glass and steel are different so I wonder if what happens to glass can be extended to steel and if at all relevant in knives. I haven't experienced any excessive chip development on my knives sharpened with diamonds, but then again I am not a professional sharpener so my sample size is relatively small, plus I don't look at edges under a microscope anyway. My blunting seems to always come from deformation or wearing out, except for vg10 knives, those chip. I don't know what really is going on on the microscopic level though.

On the other hand I have noticed a large difference in edge holding between high and low alloy steels when diamonds are used for high wear steels. Before using diamonds it looked like the difference is minor, but once I started using diamonds I saw drastic improvement in high wear steels.


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## jwthaparc (Aug 26, 2021)

So let's say I'm going to sharpen something like s110v, k390, or maxamet. Which is going to be more likely to cause problems for the edge then? Aluminum oxide, or diamond stones? 

If you don't mind indulging me on this question. Also if diamonds cause the problem, then what would the best option be cbn? Also like someone else said, is it even necessarily noticeable on something like a knife.


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## Kippington (Aug 26, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Huh. This is a little disappointing. However, sounds like it may be less of an issue _in practice _for knives, but is a practical disadvantage for very fine applications like razors and optics. Really interesting points raised.





jwthaparc said:


> Also like someone else said, is it even necessarily noticeable on something like a knife.



For kitchen knives it's not so bad in practice, unless you want super shallow angles like the guys in the straight-razor world.

If it makes you feel any better, high carbon steel knives often have micro-cracks *inside* the steel. It's one of the difficulties of forming martensite.


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## memorael (Aug 26, 2021)

Kippington said:


> For kitchen knives it's not so bad in practice, unless you want super shallow angles like the guys in the straight-razor world.
> 
> If it makes you feel any better, high carbon steel knives often have micro-cracks *inside* the steel. It's one of the difficulties of forming martensite.



Interesting, I wasn't aware of these cracks in the steels structure. I think I mentioned that the problem isn't so noticeable or in fact negligible if you sharpen at a high angle say something like 30 degrees just to form the edge then thin the rest with something that wont create deep grooves like diamonds do. The longest lasting and sharpest edges I have achieved I have done using the following progression: DMT XXC or XC OR C at a large angle like 30 degrees, you should get a large burr in 3 seconds flat. I then jump to a finishing stone something like a coticule which is on the harder side works wonders here and using the same large angle or larger debur and basically butter knife the knife. I then do a regular progression on 1k, 3k, 5k and leave it at that or use a finishing stone. If I am going to finish on a king 6k which I love on some knives I skip the 5k, I also like the belgian coticule edge on simple carbon steels like white and on some INOX ones too like AEBL. 

My theory on why this progression leaves a good edge is that the butter knifing part removes any long edge burrs or fatigued steel leaving a clean surface to work on. Any ideas to discuss are more than welcome.


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## Dominick Maone (Aug 26, 2021)

Most importantly, let’s figure out how to get a massdrop going so we can get some more people using diamonds and get some more data.


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## memorael (Aug 26, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> So let's say I'm going to sharpen something like s110v, k390, or maxamet. Which is going to be more likely to cause problems for the edge then? Aluminum oxide, or diamond stones?
> 
> If you don't mind indulging me on this question. Also if diamonds cause the problem, then what would the best option be cbn? Also like someone else said, is it even necessarily noticeable on something like a knife.


I wouldn't get to worried, try sharpening with a ALOX stone and if you dislike the process use a diamond stone. Slurries btw have the peculiar effect of breaking down the abrasive and giving a finer finish. I haven't used cubic boron nitride, I hear it works well but never worked with it.


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## jwthaparc (Aug 26, 2021)

memorael said:


> I wouldn't get to worried, try sharpening with a ALOX stone and if you dislike the process use a diamond stone. Slurries btw have the peculiar effect of breaking down the abrasive and giving a finer finish. I haven't used cubic boron nitride, I hear it works well but never worked with it.


Well in the case of the steels I just mentioned, I would go with resin bonded diamond (I can't afford vitrified diamond). If not then SiC at the very least. I haven't tried cbn either. 

My point was more along the lines that if you have a high hardness, high vanadium carbide steel. You are likely going to want to go with diamond stones if you want a clean apex. (Excluding CBN)


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## memorael (Aug 26, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Well in the case of the steels I just mentioned, I would go with resin bonded diamond (I can't afford vitrified diamond). If not then SiC at the very least. I haven't tried cbn either.
> 
> My point was more along the lines that if you have a high hardness, high vanadium carbide steel. You are likely going to want to go with diamond stones if you want a clean apex. (Excluding CBN)


Yeah I agree on that, vanadium carbides as I understand are harder than most abrasives so unless you want a hole in your knife (a tiny one) diamonds and CBN are the way to go. I think the sigma power stones can abrade them but I can't confirm.


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## jwthaparc (Aug 26, 2021)

memorael said:


> Yeah I agree on that, vanadium carbides as I understand are harder than most abrasives so unless you want a hole in your knife (a tiny one) diamonds and CBN are the way to go. I think the sigma power stones can abrade them but I can't confirm.


I've heard the sigma select are SiC. If so they should work. I've seen jeff jewel fo a sharpening with those type of steels with gritomatic SiC stones.


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## Barmoley (Aug 26, 2021)

On page 2



https://www5.kau.se/sites/default/files/Dokument/subpage/2010/02/21_269_287_pdf_18759.pdf




Also toward the end here Carbide Types in Knife Steels - Knife Steel Nerds

Larrin discusses SiC vs VC.


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## jwthaparc (Aug 26, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> On page 2
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. I never read all the way to the bottom before . 

He didn't necessarily say SiC won't cut high vc steels. Just that it won't cut as well as diamond or cbn. If I'm understanding it.


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## Barmoley (Aug 27, 2021)

Basically, it is not clear if it is harder. As you can see there is a hardness range so it might be same hardness or softer or slightly harder. It might cut or it might not or do it very slowly. Let's say it cuts slowly, that means you'll have to spend more time and the more time you spend the more chance you have to mess up the angle, etc. Just isn't the most efficient way to do it. CBN would be cool but there aren't many options unless you use a guided system so for steels like maxamet, k390, or maybe even hap40 class, diamonds are the most efficient and really most cost effective method if you take time and longevity into account.


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## jwthaparc (Aug 27, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Basically, it is not clear if it is harder. As you can see there is a hardness range so it might be same hardness or softer or slightly harder. It might cut or it might not or do it very slowly. Let's say it cuts slowly, that means you'll have to spend more time and the more time you spend the more chance you have to measure the angle, etc. Just isn't the most efficient way to do it. CBN would be cool but there aren't many options unless you use a guided system so for steels like maxamet, k390, or maybe even hap40 class, diamonds are the most efficient and really most cost effective method if you take time and longevity into account.


Most definitely. I personally use my venev 240 through 1200 (sometimes 2000 but that one kinda sucks) on that class of steel. Although I will occasionally use my manticore for rough work, but that's a whole different deal because it's so much coarser than any carbide.


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## Barmoley (Aug 27, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Most definitely. I personally use my venev 240 through 1200 (sometimes 2000 but that one kinda sucks) on that class of steel. Although I will occasionally use my manticore for rough work, but that's a whole different deal because it's so much coarser than any carbide.


Yeah, coarse grids are not the problem, only once you get high enough in grid is where you can run into issues. I didn’t even realize there was a problem until I tried diamonds, knives seemed to get sharp, just didn’t stay sharp much longer than low alloy steels. Once I tried diamonds the difference was pretty drastic.


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## Luftmensch (Sep 16, 2021)

I am into the idea. 

Is there any preference for one manufacturer over another?

I suspect of bunch of western distributors are using NSK... I certainly don't mean to skip the middleman or 'out' anybody here... but NSK look flexible and like they might consider a group buy:






商品一覧 - ＮＳＫ工業　直営　ダイヤモンド砥石通販







nskdiatoishi.jp


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## kayman67 (Sep 16, 2021)

Been using cbn and diamonds for some years now. From my experience, a good progression to closed edges, always proved better, but even without one, diamond edges always performed better with most alloys. Same goes for stropping (pretty much with anything). 
You guys might want to consider also these products for some higher grits at least CGSW 8" x 3" Resin Bonded Diamond
I know they are "just" resin bonds, but still. 
Also, Practical sharpening has cbn plates, that could be used in a progression to a finer edge (I don't do this that much lately, but for a good amount of time I used to do the hard work with diamonds and move to cbn from 500 up).


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## inferno (Sep 16, 2021)

is there any good manufaturer of cbn plates/stones? that has a variety of grits?


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## kayman67 (Sep 16, 2021)

As far as I know, just what's on Practical sharpening right now and those are from the only manufacturer left in Ukraine.


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## Barmoley (Sep 16, 2021)

Spyderco also has CBN plate with 2 grids. Reviews are pretty good.


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## Deadboxhero (Sep 16, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> So let's say I'm going to sharpen something like s110v, k390, or maxamet. Which is going to be more likely to cause problems for the edge then? Aluminum oxide, or diamond stones?
> 
> If you don't mind indulging me on this question. Also if diamonds cause the problem, then what would the best option be cbn? Also like someone else said, is it even necessarily noticeable on something like a knife.


Alumina will, it is softer and doesn't cut the carbides, the burnishing causes stress on the harder carbides.


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## Deadboxhero (Sep 16, 2021)

Kippington said:


> I should also mention, it's well known in the optics world that diamond abrasives will cause micro-cracking.
> 
> I believe this link skips to the correct part, where he explains what diamonds do to a surface of a glass lens. Further on in the video, he removes the micro-cracks:



The modulus of elasticity of steel is not the same as glass, cutting steel is not the same as cutting glass even when steel is at 70rc.


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## Deadboxhero (Sep 16, 2021)

memorael said:


> So a while back, the straight razor people started noticing that when using a DMT plate for bevel setting, chips would later form. So some mad scientist did this study about sharpening using diamonds and the conclusion is that diamonds will basically embed into the knife so deeply that the forces generated would crack the edge and form extremely tiny fissures that eventually would form a chip and depending on the hardness and material sometimes it would keep growing until it was visible. I would recommend using Diamonds for sharpening at very steep angles just to form an edge to save time but sometimes the risk is just to great when sharpening some of the higher HRC knives.


DMT has the abrasive grains essentially sitting on top of a plate, the abrasive grains are fully exposed and allowed to penetrate deeply into the bevel leaving a deeper scratch.

Deeper scratches and rougher finishes reduce edge stability.

Not all diamond stones are made like this.


So it's silly to say that diamonds universally cause problems.


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## Deadboxhero (Sep 16, 2021)

Kippington said:


> For kitchen knives it's not so bad in practice, unless you want super shallow angles like the guys in the straight-razor world.
> 
> If it makes you feel any better, high carbon steel knives often have micro-cracks *inside* the steel. It's one of the difficulties of forming martensite.



No, depends on how carbon rich the austenite is before quenching.

Putting +0.80% Carbon weight INTO Solution will create larger plates of martensite that smack into each other causing nanosized cracks. This very carbon rich martensite is also very brittle.

This is why heat treating high carbon Steels with blow torches and by eyeball is ridiculous, cannot control carbon in solution well and make a mechanically inferior product. Total **** show.


Only 0.60% carbon is needed in solution for maximum hardness of lath martensite without causing detrimental effects of retained austenite and more brittle plate martensite.


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## Deadboxhero (Sep 16, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Thanks. I never read all the way to the bottom before .
> 
> He didn't necessarily say SiC won't cut high vc steels. Just that it won't cut as well as diamond or cbn. If I'm understanding it.


The edges don't come up as crisp on high Vanadium high hardness steels, abrasive hardeness overmatch is better.

cBN and Diamond cut cleaner and the result is crisper at the apex.


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## Deadboxhero (Sep 17, 2021)

Kippington said:


> In my experience, it still happens. It has to do with stress concentrations formed by the super sharp edges on the diamonds.
> 
> Other abrasives are more prone to rounding over (blunting), and so their cutting action isn't so harsh. Diamonds tend to stay sharp, so they gouge out sharper grooves into the steel. The grooves are the main starting points for micro-cracks to seed - where lateral forces get concentrated.
> 
> On the flip side, diamond abrasives gouging out deep scratches are what we like about them. They work fast and form a toothy edge.


You're making it sound like softer abrasives don't have consequences as well, The problem with soft abrasives is that the duller smoother grains burnish and deform the metal rather than remove. Deformed metal means more strain. This is magnified when we get larger volumes of harder carbide with a harder matrix. 

As far as surface roughness,
moving to a finer grit with a bonded cBN/Diamond cleans things up If desired or needed, meanwhile burnishing is just burnishing.


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## memorael (Sep 17, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> DMT has the abrasive grains essentially sitting on top of a plate, the abrasive grains are fully exposed and allowed to penetrate deeply into the bevel leaving a deeper scratch.
> 
> Deeper scratches and rougher finishes reduce edge stability.
> 
> ...


Everything you've said sounds really nice on paper, in practice I still see cracks forming when using diamonds, but whatever if you want to keep using diamonds for whatever reason go ahead. I find you calling me silly a bit uncivilized since all I did was respectfully mention what can and has happened, it sparked some debate and everyone got smarter or debated their point of view.


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## Deadboxhero (Sep 17, 2021)

memorael said:


> Everything you've said sounds really nice on paper, in practice I still see cracks forming when using diamonds, but whatever if you want to keep using diamonds for whatever reason go ahead. I find you calling me silly a bit uncivilized since all I did was respectfully mention what can and has happened, it sparked some debate and everyone got smarter or debated their point of view.


"It" is not the same as "you're"

"It is silly to say that diamonds universally cause problems"


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## Deadboxhero (Sep 17, 2021)

Diamond was used to make this edge. No chipping with extreme geometry and hardness on high carbide stainless was observed with edge stability testing.



Diamond was used to make this edge,

No blowout with flexing M398 on brass 



Diamond and CBN used on 15v, batoning a 16d nail with 15v at 67rc and 23% Vanadium carbide volume.







memorael said:


> Everything you've said sounds really nice on paper, in practice I still see cracks forming when using diamonds, but whatever if you want to keep using diamonds for whatever reason go ahead. I find you calling me silly a bit uncivilized since all I did was respectfully mention what can and has happened, it sparked some debate and everyone got smarter or debated their point of view.


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## RDalman (Sep 17, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> Diamond was used to make this edge. No chipping with extreme geometry and hardness on high carbide stainless was observed with edge stability testing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All of those edges are thick and not relevant to kitchenknives or razors imo.


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## Barmoley (Sep 17, 2021)

I haven't noticed any chipping when using vitrified or resin diamond stones on high carbide, high hardness kitchen knives. I don't look at edges under a microscope so I don't know if micro fractures exist. What abrasive would be suggested if not diamonds? Diamonds seem to leave the best, longest lasting edges as compared to SiC, or aluminum oxide which don't work very well in my experience on high hardness, high carbide steels. CBN would be interesting to try since it supposed to be gentler due to its shape, but CBN bench stones are not really available. There are some plates available, but from all accounts they feel similar to diamond plates when sharpening.

Has anyone who uses vitrified or resin diamond stones to sharpen their kitchen knives actually seen any extra chipping as compared to using other abrasives?


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## Sparten007 (Sep 17, 2021)

Been wanting some for awhile


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## Kippington (Sep 17, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> You're making it sound like softer abrasives don't have consequences as well, The problem with soft abrasives is that the duller smoother grains burnish and deform the metal rather than remove. Deformed metal means more strain. This is magnified when we get larger volumes of harder carbide with a harder matrix.
> 
> As far as surface roughness,
> moving to a finer grit with a bonded cBN/Diamond cleans things up If desired or needed, meanwhile burnishing is just burnishing.



With this thread title in mind, I wondered why you wanted me to concentrate on the negatives of other abrasives so much... then I realised you must be the guy selling the diamond stones. Makes sense now.
I don't have a horse in this race.



Deadboxhero said:


> No, depends on how carbon rich the martensite is before quenching.
> 
> Putting +0.80% Carbon weight INTO Solution will create larger plates of martensite that smack into each other causing nanosized cracks. This very carbon rich martensite is also very brittle.
> 
> ...







If the gentleman in the video addresses microcracking in a 0.34% w C steel, no offence but I'm trusting his word over yours. He ain't exactly the kind of guy whose concerns you dismiss, on the subject of metallurgy.









Harshad Bhadeshia - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## memorael (Sep 17, 2021)

Ah, so this gentleman sells diamond stones, makes sense now why he's pushing the diamond hones.

I want to make my point clear, I use and like diamond stones, they are a tool and I use them when the balance of risks vs benefits shifts in a favorable way. All I wanted to point out is that Diamonds are known by experience and through some un professional or professional study (can't confirm here) that they can and will in some cases cause micro cracks, as I recall the stones used in these cases where metal plates with diamonds embedded into them. When someone used matrix type diamond hones I recall something happened to the tune of diamonds getting loose and rolling into the steel, but I don't remember if there is any bad effect. 

So if you have a knife that get's an edge you like after using a diamond hone, hey more power to you.


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## memorael (Sep 17, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> Diamond was used to make this edge. No chipping with extreme geometry and hardness on high carbide stainless was observed with edge stability testing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All these videos proove is that the knife is sharp, and that the steel has a good heat treatment. I can do the same with a king 1k on a good knife.


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## kayman67 (Sep 17, 2021)

They prove that not all diamond sharpening approaches, by default, will damage the edge, at least not to the extent to start part of the apex fly under extreme usage/pressure. So what's the debate about? I have many years of experience with this. For some reason, those edges perform longer and better when this should be impossible, no? Lately, the question is why. I see a good amount of effort trying to prove this wrong on a very micro level, but the real life results are what they are. What do we do with them? 
Anyway, scienceofsharp, even if I feel like something's missing there, proved that some cracks are present to some degree with both classes of abrasives, not just diamonds.


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## Kippington (Sep 17, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Anyway, scienceofsharp, even if I feel like something's missing there, proved that some cracks are present to some degree with both classes of abrasives, not just diamonds.


His most recent article? My take-away was that diamonds tend to crack carbides, moreso than other abrasives which left carbides standing proud. Interesting you saw it a different way.

www.scienceofsharp.com


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## Barmoley (Sep 17, 2021)

You guys are totally off base questioning Shawn‘s integrity just because he happens to sell diamond stones. He has very extensive experience in sharpening and working with all sorts of high wear, high hardness, high carbide steels and he uses what works for him. He’s worked with materials that very few here if any have worked with. You might disagree with his conclusions or reasons, but to assume that he would promote diamonds just because he sells them is absolutely uncalled for and just isn’t cool at all.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Sep 17, 2021)

Whoa, not agreeing with @Deadboxhero is one thing but calling him out because he sells stones is not cool at all.

Shawn Houston is one of the most giving people in the knife world with a massive amount of knowledge that he not only readily shares, but spends a lot of money on helping research and develop. He's inspired countless sharpeners, enthusiasts, and even fellow knife makers. And that includes in the kitchen knife world.

You can not like his style if you want, that's cool, and you can debate his positions, but he doesn't do anything from a salesman point of view and ALWAYS has the user in mind! He only sells stones because he couldn't find anything out there to accomplish what he wanted to accomplish. But he readily promotes other people's products and other sharpener's work.

He's a damn solid person with a heavily established reputation.


----------



## Kippington (Sep 17, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> You guys are totally off base questioning Shawn‘s integrity just because he happens to sell diamond stones. He has very extensive experience in sharpening and working with all sorts of high wear, high hardness, high carbide steels and he uses what works for him. He’s worked with materials that very few here if any have worked with. You might disagree with his conclusions or reasons, but to assume that he would promote diamonds just because he sells them is absolutely uncalled for and just isn’t cool at all.


I don't doubt.
I'm pretty sure none us on the forum have a problem with diamond abrasives. But I'm not a fan of strawman style arguments.



Deadboxhero said:


> You're making it sound like softer abrasives don't have consequences as well, The problem with soft abrasives...


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 17, 2021)

Kippington said:


> His most recent article? My take-away was that diamonds tend to crack carbides, moreso than other abrasives which left carbides standing proud. Interesting you saw it a different way.
> 
> www.scienceofsharp.com


Didn’t he also say that the cracked carbides were on the part of the burr that flexed the most? He also used diamond plates, so we still don’t know if the cracks are specifically due to diamonds, a possibility, or specifically how diamonds are on a plate. Can we really draw conclusions from this that diamonds in other types of diamond stones would produce the same results? Cool article though.


----------



## kayman67 (Sep 17, 2021)

Kippington said:


> His most recent article? My take-away was that diamonds tend to crack carbides, moreso than other abrasives which left carbides standing proud. Interesting you saw it a different way.
> 
> www.scienceofsharp.com



Not only me. 
"Close-up of the K390 Endela sharpened on the Sigma Power II 240 shows partially abraded carbides at the surface with *severe cracking*." 

Also, worth mentioning is this "Close-up of the cross-sectioned burr formed by the DMT-C shows damaged carbides in the most flexed region." + "Close-up of a carbide near the surface that has been partially ground showing *severe cracking*." 

So, there are some mixed results right there. Not my words, either. 

I don't question some things. I just have my own real life experience, my own progression and so on. Pretty hard to change all those now, since they are also actual facts.


----------



## Kippington (Sep 17, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Not only me.
> "Close-up of the K390 Endela sharpened on the Sigma Power II 240 shows partially abraded carbides at the surface with *severe cracking*."
> 
> Also, worth mentioning is this "Close-up of the cross-sectioned burr formed by the DMT-C shows damaged carbides in the most flexed region." + "Close-up of a carbide near the surface that has been partially ground showing *severe cracking*."


That's true, I wonder what the abrasive is in the Sigma.
It seems that anything much harder than carbides tend to cause micro-cracking within the carbide itself.



Barmoley said:


> Didn’t he also say that the cracked carbides were on the part of the burr that flexed the most?


There were a couple of other pictures further away from the burr. But yeah, the burr seems to compound the issue.


----------



## kayman67 (Sep 17, 2021)

Based on the conclusion, that's pretty much how the carbides got removed with all the abrasives, diamonds being just faster and more aggressive, as expected, doing both jobs at once. He does say at some point that changing the angles to reduce flexing to minimal with Shapton, also reduced the damage. This makes me wonder just how much is the abrasive and how much the way it is used in specific scenarios. Because plates are aggressive in nature, have no give whatsoever. I know it myself.


----------



## Dominick Maone (Sep 17, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> You guys are totally off base questioning Shawn‘s integrity just because he happens to sell diamond stones. He has very extensive experience in sharpening and working with all sorts of high wear, high hardness, high carbide steels and he uses what works for him. He’s worked with materials that very few here if any have worked with. You might disagree with his conclusions or reasons, but to assume that he would promote diamonds just because he sells them is absolutely uncalled for and just isn’t cool at all.


Agreed. I believe Shawn is somewhat of an authority on high hrc and carbide rich knife steels and ways to best sharpen them. He was the (or one of the) sharpeners for Dr Larrins Catra test on 48 knife steels. I think it is naive to assume that Sean is saying you can take a kitchen knife off the rack and hammer it through a nail.

Anyway, I guess my hope of a mass drop is over. Too bad when someone asks the best way to buy a Chevy, everyone has to mention how crappy Chevys are.

Maybe we should close this thread and someone can start a new thread about the benefits and drawbacks of abrasive types.


----------



## Deadboxhero (Sep 17, 2021)

Kippington said:


> With this thread title in mind, I wondered why you wanted me to concentrate on the negatives of other abrasives so much... then I realised you must be the guy selling the diamond stones. Makes sense now.
> I don't have a horse in this race.
> 
> 
> ...


You're misunderstanding and misquoting Professor Bhadeshia. 

You posted an hour+ long video and are using it out of context. He doesn't start talking about lower carbon martensite until 10:07 and than he doesn't discuss the 0.34%wt C steel until 14:16 which is designed to fully harden during hot rolling. 

You time stamped the video at 4:03 






Here Professor Bhadeshia is discussing cracking due to plate martensite in high carbon steels and is referencing an article he did on 52100 to study cracking with purposly putting too much carbon in solution making plate martensite to study crack behavior of large plates of martensite.


Solano, Bhadeshia.Metall.Mater. Trans A. 49A (2014) 4907 











"Crack free" at 1133k (1579°F) FOR 10 MIN.

So I agree with Professor Bhadeshia.


You also used this picture out of context.







The original picture comes from A.R Marder 1970. To study cracking by taking high carbon steels and putting too much carbon in solution to observe/study the cracking phenomena of plate martensite. Not "0.34% wt Carbon steel" or 0.34% wt Carbon in solution.


----------



## Kippington (Sep 17, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> You're misunderstanding and misquoting Professor Bhadeshia.
> 
> You posted an hour+ long video and are using it out of context. He doesn't start talking about lower carbon martensite until 10:07 and than he doesn't discuss the 0.34%wt C steel until 14:16 which is designed to fully harden during hot rolling.
> 
> ...


So you're saying he brought up micro-cracking for no reason - out of context - in a lecture about the considerations in developing a new medium carbon steel alloy? Alright then.
As much as we could go down this road, we should probably stay on topic.





Massdrop- Diamond Stones


Thought? Would be nice to have a set of super vitrified diamonds or something like that in massdrop style.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 17, 2021)

Kippington said:


> That's true, I wonder what the abrasive is in the Sigma.


The 240 is SiC


----------



## Deadboxhero (Sep 17, 2021)

Kippington said:


> So you're saying he brought up micro-cracking for no reason - out of context - in a lecture about the considerations in developing a new medium carbon steel alloy? Alright then.
> As much as we could go down this road, we should probably stay on topic.
> 
> 
> ...




Professor Bhadeshia is setting the discussion up for the "how and why" his 0.34%w C steel he designed works in the as quenched condition after being hot rolled has 0.34%wt Carbon and not 1.05% C etc like 52100

We can start another thread if you like.
I didn't post that video here to begin with. However, feel obligated to share if misinformation/misunderstanding is being presented.

That is the spirit of the forums after all, to discuss details and conflicting views.


----------



## jedy617 (Sep 17, 2021)

So is there a group buy going on or nah? If so tag me when it's going down


----------



## Kippington (Sep 17, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> We can start another thread if you like.


You can start one. I've heard enough.


----------



## jedy617 (Sep 17, 2021)

Kippington said:


> You can start one. I've heard enough.


I'm good. Someone just lemme know when it's time


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Sep 17, 2021)

Kippington said:


> You can start one. I've heard enough.



Me too.


----------



## Luftmensch (Sep 18, 2021)

Back on track... I am interested in a group buy....



nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Certainly something like this could be managed, but what would be the unique attraction to a massdropped stone vs. folks going and buying one at their preferred grit?
> 
> I've considered stones previously so happy to discuss the topic.



Good question. 



M1k3 said:


> Bulk discount? Fancy KKF/BBB stylized branding?



 I would be interested for the potential of a bulk discount and _accessibility_. Interesting stones are not rare as hens teeth... but they are often expensive and sold out. A group buy _may_ streamline that process for some.



Do we have somebody fluent in Japanese? Like I said earlier, I have a hunch that NSK might do a small batch order - they already do made-to-order products (I dont know what volume). Could choose from:

Sintered diamond (new)
CBN
Sintered diamond (old)
They might be willing to do custom thicknesses, colours... etc. I am not claiming NSK are better than alternatives. I simply dont know... Again, like I said... I suspect they are the supplier for other brands sold in the 'West'. So I don't think they are complete wildcard.

If there is interest, it would be good if a Japanese speaking forum member could see if they are willing to work with us. It would be even better if we could properly understand the differences between their old and new diamond stones - google translate doesnt do a great job.



.... anyway... just a starting point for getting the thread back on track


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 18, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Back on track... I am interested in a group buy....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe @Dave Martell has some experience with NSK?





naniwa diamond stones?


anyone tried this series? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L1SHY2W/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 looks like chosera but with diamonds as the abrasive.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## Luftmensch (Sep 18, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Maybe @Dave Martell has some experience with NSK?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would definitely be keen to hear! @Dave Martell ?

Like I say, I am pretty sure NSK are familiar to the community under different branding. I'll stop there. I don't want to 'out' any vendors based on speculation 



(Personally I am not too bothered about supersteels or minutiae about what happens to the edge at a micro-level. A high performing and nice feeling low & mid grit stone that _dishes_ _slowly_ interests me _a lot_... I am very close to ordering a Venev combination stone. If we can do something fun on KKF, I might hold off on that!)


----------



## captaincaed (Sep 18, 2021)

I'd be interested in a bulk order because I'm interested in having three vitrified stones at the same grit level so they can be used to flatten one another. Every stone eventually needs it.

I'm also interested in flatness, especially for chisels. Diamond plates are the old standby for wood tools, but these would do better double duty with knives, so I wouldn't need two sets. I guess I'd need three sets with the logic I just laid out. Wait a minute...


----------



## Luftmensch (Sep 18, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I'm also interested in flatness, especially for chisels. Diamond plates are the old standby for wood tools, but these would do better double duty with knives, so I wouldn't need two sets.



In the long run I would love to do more woodwork. I saw your progress on the cutting boards . 

I am very much onboard with your thinking! For the little wood projects I do, I have a decent set of chisels and some smaller planes. I dont have any powered methods for sharpening them. This is 70% of the reason I am keen on low and mid grit stones that maintain flatness. The other 29% might be knife thinning. 

Regular high grit stones wear slowly enough not to be a pain.


----------



## captaincaed (Sep 18, 2021)

Indeed ( and thank you)! Looking for that low grit magic. I am so sick of my 220 pink brick.


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

if you need flatness, the plates aren't too bad if you are willing to follow up with a real stone to erase the scratches. i regard the plates as consumables. plates are very fast (when new at least). and regular stones are very fast too. to me speed is important.


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I'd be interested in a bulk order because I'm interested in having three vitrified stones at the same grit level so they can be used to flatten one another. Every stone eventually needs it.
> 
> I'm also interested in flatness, especially for chisels. Diamond plates are the old standby for wood tools, but these would do better double duty with knives, so I wouldn't need two sets. I guess I'd need three sets with the logic I just laid out. Wait a minute...



this is exactly what you should do. get 3 sets of 3 different stones!! like a boss.


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

btw is there a reason there are no/very few cbn stones?

there is also another abrasive called boron carbide Boron carbide - Wikipedia
this one seems to be much cheaper than cbn since you can actually but solid stones made out of it. they are used to condition grinding wheels.
looks like this one below but carbide. size small but its still a solid chunk. and these are expensive.






NorBide Boron Nitride Type 54 Dressing Stick


Recondition your cup and saucer wheels with the NorBide boron nitride dressing stick, featuring super fine grit boron nitride abrasive for high quality




www.nortonabrasives.com









Norbide Norbide Boron Carbide Type 54 Dressing Stick


Recondition your cup and saucer wheels with the NorBide boron carbide dressing stick, featuring super fine grit boron carbide abrasive for high quality




www.nortonabrasives.com


----------



## captaincaed (Sep 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> this is exactly what you should do. get 3 sets of 3 different stones!! like a boss.


I swear if the price is right in feeling that crazy


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

i dont think any vitrified stones ever gonna be cheap. its a too specialized product.


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> btw is there a reason there are no/very few cbn stones?
> 
> there is also another abrasive called boron carbide Boron carbide - Wikipedia
> this one seems to be much cheaper than cbn since you can actually but solid stones made out of it. they are used to condition grinding wheels.
> ...


I think @ian tried some boride?


----------



## ian (Sep 18, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> I think @ian tried some boride?



Only internally.


----------



## memorael (Sep 18, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I'd like to see a link to that study.


Tried searching for it on sharprazorplace and badger and blade but couldn't find it. I'll keep looking, if I find it I'll post it.


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> btw is there a reason there are no/very few cbn stones?



I've read somewhere that it is due to price. This surprised me greatly since I thought diamonds would be more expensive, but on commercial level maybe this is not the case due to synthetic diamonds. CBN is used a lot in high speed grinding since diamonds have issues with high temperatures and some metals at high temperatures.


----------



## memorael (Sep 18, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> You guys are totally off base questioning Shawn‘s integrity just because he happens to sell diamond stones. He has very extensive experience in sharpening and working with all sorts of high wear, high hardness, high carbide steels and he uses what works for him. He’s worked with materials that very few here if any have worked with. You might disagree with his conclusions or reasons, but to assume that he would promote diamonds just because he sells them is absolutely uncalled for and just isn’t cool at all.


If I came off as questioning his integrity I apologize, I am not questioning his integrity it is obvious to me that he prefers and likes diamond sharpening materials better than other materials, he appears to be very knowledgeable but I can't confirm or deny his knowledge. If he sells diamond stones all I am saying is that it is more proof that he in fact prefers diamonds and thinks diamonds are the best way to go. I don't agree with it 100% but I find no problem in him pushing diamonds if he believes that diamonds are the best tool for the job. 

He does come a bit sharp on the edges with his arguments though, but hey anyone who believes something and doesn't defend it properly is questionable IMO.


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

sometimes, i question my own integrity.


----------



## memorael (Sep 18, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> Professor Bhadeshia is setting the discussion up for the "how and why" his 0.34%w C steel he designed works in the as quenched condition after being hot rolled has 0.34%wt Carbon and not 1.05% C etc like 52100
> 
> We can start another thread if you like.
> I didn't post that video here to begin with. However, feel obligated to share if misinformation/misunderstanding is being presented.
> ...


I would like to ask you a question, what would you consider to be the best practical method of sharpening a kitchen knife? The reason I ask is because I believe that all stones have a place in a sharpening fan's tool kit, but I think you look at things from the practical perspective, you are obviously well read and experienced in the area and even though I have about 20 years chasing the sharpening dragon I can't for the love of god claim to be a pro, I just know what I experience and a little bit about what I read. I do however want to know more, some steels are very new to me and some concepts are also new. So it be cool to read and discuss, in a civil matter, why x is better than y. Thanks.


----------



## memorael (Sep 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> sometimes, i question my own integrity.


What is the answer spread like? lol.


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 18, 2021)

memorael said:


> If I came off as questioning his integrity I apologize, I am not questioning his integrity it is obvious to me that he prefers and likes diamond sharpening materials better than other materials, he appears to be very knowledgeable but I can't confirm or deny his knowledge. If he sells diamond stones all I am saying is that it is more proof that he in fact prefers diamonds and thinks diamonds are the best way to go. I don't agree with it 100% but I find no problem in him pushing diamonds if he believes that diamonds are the best tool for the job.
> 
> He does come a bit sharp on the edges with his arguments though, but hey anyone who believes something and doesn't defend it properly is questionable IMO.


I really don't want to drag this out any further. You got it all wrong, he sells diamond stones as an aside of what he does. Due to his activities he was looking for something that worked for him, what he found wasn't up to his standards so he designed something that was better for him. Once it was made for him, he sold some to the rest. He used to sell CBN stones before. He does so much good for the community that it is just ridiculous to question his motives. Doesn't mean you have to agree with him. By all means argue if you have knowledge to back it up.


----------



## memorael (Sep 18, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> I've read somewhere that it is due to price. This surprised me greatly since I thought diamonds would be more expensive, but on commercial level maybe this is not the case due to synthetic diamonds. CBN is used a lot in high speed grinding since diamonds have issues with high temperatures and some metals at high temperatures.


Is there no stone with CBN in it? all I recall is some spray on which was .5 microns or something to that tune. Is there a list anywhere were... like a master list, that clarifies the known abrasives used in natural or non natural stones and there recommended use? that be cool.


----------



## memorael (Sep 18, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> I really don't want to drag this out any further. You got it all wrong, he sells diamond stones as an aside of what he does. Due to his activities he was looking for something that worked for him, what he found wasn't up to his standards so he designed something that was better for him. Once it was made for him, he sold some to the rest. He used to sell CBN stones before. He does so much good for the community that it is just ridiculous to question his motives. Doesn't mean you have to agree with him. By all means argue if you have knowledge to back it up.


I would rather discuss than argue. Anyway can you further explain what stone he designed? or point in me in the right direction. Thanks.


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 18, 2021)

memorael said:


> Is there no stone with CBN in it? all I recall is some spray on which was .5 microns or something to that tune. Is there a list anywhere were... like a master list, that clarifies the known abrasives used in natural or non natural stones and there recommended use? that be cool.



If you are asking about natural stones with CBN in them, I have no idea.

As far as synthetic bench stones go all I know is Spyderco CBN plate, practical sharpening plates from Ukraine and NSK ones that @Luftmensch linked to above. I don't have experience with any of these. There are CBN "stones" for guided systems such as Edge Pro, etc.


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 18, 2021)

memorael said:


> I would rather discuss than argue. Anyway can you further explain what stone he designed? or point in me in the right direction. Thanks.








Triple B Handmade







www.triplebhandmade.com


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 18, 2021)

Horse Carriage Horse

So no massdrop diamond stones.

But horse beating


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> sometimes, i question my own integrity.


That's different I hear they have pills for this


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

Triple B Handmade







www.triplebhandmade.com


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> That's different I hear they have pills for this



x-tacy. i've taken it many many times. it healed me well. 
mda is quite nice too.


----------



## memorael (Sep 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> x-tacy. i've taken it many many times. it healed me well.
> mda is quite nice too.


ROFL!!!!! well sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do... LOL this is funny as cheese.


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

memorael said:


> ROFL!!!!! well sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do... LOL this is funny as cheese.



tghe thing with x is that you have to do a handful of them. close to ld50. and no dancing around. just lay in a sofa with a blanket. tharts when you really, really, feel the power. good music at full blast. i prefer early 2000's trance to x. this music was basically made for x. back like 20 years ago when i was into this we used to do 1 whole and 1 crushed, then after exactly 1h we did the same again. then 1h after we took a whole one. topped up with weed during every 30 min or so. keeping it real. i prefer white widow here. its the best ****. period. and i've been to the dam many times. and almost nothing is better than this. 
except possibly dampkrings super silver haze.
possibly (its good ****)


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

you only live once. and then suddenly, one day, you dont live no more.


----------



## memorael (Sep 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> tghe thing with x is that you have to do a handful of them. close to ld50. and no dancing around. just lay in a sofa with a blanket. tharts when you really, really, feel the power. good music at full blast. i prefer early 2000's trance to x. this music was basically made for x. back like 20 years ago when i was into this we used to do 1 whole and 1 crushed, then after exactly 1h we did the same again. then 1h after we took a whole one. topped up with weed during every 30 min or so. keeping it real. i prefer white widow here. its the best ****. period. and i've been to the dam many times. and almost nothing is better than this.
> except possibly dampkrings super silver haze.
> possibly (its good ****)


This should be quoted into a movie ALA the wolf of wallstreet, what trance do you listen to?


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> I've read somewhere that it is due to price. This surprised me greatly since I thought diamonds would be more expensive, but on commercial level maybe this is not the case due to synthetic diamonds. CBN is used a lot in high speed grinding since diamonds have issues with high temperatures and some metals at high temperatures.



yeah diamonds turn into the gas carbon monoxide at 700C or so. this is why they use cbn. 

i think synth diamonds are actually cuite cheap. i think they make them by burning methane in some container or something. not very well read into this.


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

memorael said:


> This should be quoted into a movie ALA the wolf of wallstreet, what trance do you listen to?



i listened to trance in the early 2000's. not anymore. but i guess i can post some x favs here 





but now i'm more into stuff like this:
this is phuckn awesome


----------



## memorael (Sep 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> i listened to trance in the early 2000's. not anymore. but i guess i can post some x favs here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



shiza.... now I gotta see if the molls is available. This brings back memories. You ever heard of nortec? from TJ?


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

i have good story to tell about x. lol.

so i back in the early 2000's i was in greece buying weed. a large amount. 
and the guy i knew. he worked on a boat. that went from athens to mykonos. the gay island.

so i went on the boat to mykonos. and my friend told me not to go to the pieros bar (where all the gay people are).
but at like 2 in the morning or so all the regular clubs were crap. even the famous ones. so i took a stroll down the streets of mykonos. and i found pieros bar. this place was banging. and apparantly you could order x from the waiters. so i did. and it was the biggest x i have ever seen. took it. then it was 3 in the morning. and all the clubs closed. 

so everyone went down to the harbour. and there was club down there that was open from 3 to like 9 in the morning. open air. 
i remember this: i ordered some drink and the guy in the bar made me a drink. i was totally phucked by now btw. and he also told me:
you see these 4 drinks here on the bar? these are also yours. hahahbahghahaha
i hade no ****ing idea i was that phucked. apparantly i took a zip or 5 of them and then simply forgot i had them and ordered a new one when i was thirsty. 
x can be fun sometimes. but yeah that was a kick ass night. one of the best.


----------



## inferno (Sep 18, 2021)

this is more inline to what i'm listening to now.

from the same time period though.


----------



## Bart.s (Sep 18, 2021)

I also used to do a little X from time to time when I was younger, mainly on parties/festivals. 

This one time, I took a little too much. Went off the dancefloor and got a popsicle to cool off a little. So I'm enjoying my popsicle, some time passes and everybody started laughing. Couldn't understand why. Turned out, my popsicle had been gone for half an hour, and I was still licking the little stick it came on . Damn I was f***ed.


----------



## Dave Martell (Sep 18, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Maybe @Dave Martell has some experience with NSK?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Luftmensch said:


> I would definitely be keen to hear! @Dave Martell ?
> 
> Like I say, I am pretty sure NSK are familiar to the community under different branding. I'll stop there. I don't want to 'out' any vendors based on speculation
> 
> ...




I'm sorry to say that I don't have any experience with NSK, I just know of them is all.


----------



## ian (Sep 18, 2021)

Dave Martell said:


> I'm sorry to say that I don't have any experience with NSK, I just know of them is all.



What about with ecstasy?


----------



## jwthaparc (Sep 18, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> Alumina will, it is softer and doesn't cut the carbides, the burnishing causes stress on the harder carbides.


I was trying to imply that with my question. Diamonds are definitely better for those high vanadium carbide steels.


----------



## jwthaparc (Sep 19, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> The edges don't come up as crisp on high Vanadium high hardness steels, abrasive hardeness overmatch is better.
> 
> cBN and Diamond cut cleaner and the result is crisper at the apex.


This makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Luftmensch (Sep 19, 2021)

inferno said:


> btw is there a reason there are no/very few cbn stones?
> 
> there is also another abrasive called boron carbide Boron carbide - Wikipedia
> this one seems to be much cheaper than cbn since you can actually but solid stones made out of it. they are used to condition grinding wheels.
> ...



I went on a little internet search. I think the answer is simply what @Barmoley says:



Barmoley said:


> CBN is used a lot in high speed grinding since diamonds have issues with high temperatures and some metals at high temperatures.



 The raison d'etre of CBN is being very hard (second to diamonds) _and_ heat resistant. From what I read online, at high temperatures, there is carbon diffusion out of the diamonds which causes breakdown. That could be wrong. I didnt bother spending anytime verifying the technical reasons why break down occurs.

Suffice to say, the primary benefit of CBN has zero use on waterstones which are unlikely to have temperature fluctuations outside of ambient conditions. Perhaps there are small and interesting ways in which CBN _could_ matter to whetstones like honing feedback. Since the market is pretty much 100% industrial, it is no surprise they wouldnt bother investing much R&D or tooling in a niche market.




Barmoley said:


> This surprised me greatly since I thought diamonds would be more expensive, but on commercial level maybe this is not the case due to synthetic diamonds.



I didnt find an answer to the cost question. Both CBN and synthetic diamonds need very high heat and pressure to be manufactured. My gut feeling is the price between them is probably not massive.

But here is something for abrasive nerds  (nerds about abrasives; not nerds with ****** attitudes )... not all synthetic diamonds are made equal! I didnt know this but there are a few subtypes. The two most interesting for us are *monocrystalline* and *polycrystalline* diamonds.

The main advantage going for monocrystalline diamonds (MCD) is cost. They are cheaper to manufacture. Because they are a single crystal, apparently there is an orientation to the structure where part of the surface is sharp and others are relatively blunt.

Polycrystalline diamonds (PCD) are clusters of micro-crystals forced into a bond together. Because they are composed of many micro-crystals, they can break-down into finer particles - effectively self-sharpening. Their compound nature also makes them a ball of sharp surfaces! I believe this gives them a higher cutting rate and potentially better finishes.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 19, 2021)

So.. no group buy then?

I nominate this for the strangest thread of the year


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## inferno (Sep 24, 2021)

i have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.


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## inferno (Sep 24, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> I went on a little internet search. I think the answer is simply what @Barmoley says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yeah you're probably right. its probably not worth the effort when diamonds are cheap. 

i'm thinking/guessing boron carbide would be cheaper than diamonds though. but i have a feeling the actual cost of the abrasive material here is not a very big cost.

i dont know about any diffusion at high temps but diamonds is carbon just as charcoal. and carbon turns into carbonmonoxide at about 7-800 C or so. thats what i think the main reason is for cbn and bc, they are high temp stable.


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