# Please help me choose a Nakiri



## Triggaaar (Mar 22, 2018)

I have read countless posts on the forum covering all nakiris, and watched any video I can find.

Questionnaire
LOCATION = UK
KNIFE TYPE = Nakiri
Right handed
Japanese handle
Carbon core, preferably stainless clad
Max budget = what it costs to get a 180mm Watanabe sent over (with non plastic handle)
Home use, just for veg. Mostly garlic, onions (medium and spring), peppers, courgettes. Some potato & butternut. I have plenty of space, but don't feel the need for 180mm.
I like to push cut, draw (pull) cut, lateral slice and dice, but I mostly want the nakiri to chop. Chopping is fun!
I only have one nice knife - Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji Gyuto 210. Very happy with it. Without experiencing anything else, if you asked what I'd like better from it, I'd guess I like the idea of a laser, but then in use I may prefer what I have (gyuto wise that is). I'd like a nakiri too, for fun and to scoop food better.
Pinch grip.
I don't want an ugly knife, but it doesn't need a Damascus or hammered finish etc. No plastic hilt.
Weight: I think I'm after something in the middle. Light enough to effortlessly bounce up and down (that's technical for chopping), but with a little weight to help get through the food. I don't want a cleaver (well, I will one day) that requires a different technique.
A nice OOTB condition would be good. I will look after on stones, but I'm inexperienced so it helps if it starts off good.
I don't expect to do much rock chopping. It's a tough call between wedging, food release, falling through food.
I'd like decent edge retention, and don't want it to be a pain to sharpen (due to my skill level).
End grain oak chopping board only.



Some of the front-runners:

Watanabe Pro 165mm or 180mm
Masakage Yuki 165mm
Itinomonn Kasumi 180mm
Kochi Kurouchi 180mm

Length: My gut feel is that I'd be better off with the 165mm than the 180mm, as the 165 isn't too light, and I don't need extra length for the food I prep.

I'm aware that the Watanabes are the most recommended here, they are an option. Whatever you recommend, please say what it is about the knife that you like (you can't say everything) compared to the alternatives.

The Kochi sounds good, but being in the UK, shipping and tax probably make it too expensive.

Itinimonn are popular and seem reliable. I think JaVa prefers theirs to the Watanabe (while noting the Watanabe is excellent)

The Yuki is the cheapest here, and gets good reviews. The main criticism seems to be some product variation. This would be a major concern for me, except I could order it direct from the UK and if it doesn't look great, I can return it for a no hassle refund.

I'd love to hear from @TheCaptain who seems to own every nakiri ever made 

Please let me know what you think, all advice is much appreciated :doublethumbsup:


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 22, 2018)

I really like Watanabe Pro 180mm nakiri. Super easy to sharpen, tall heel, stainless clad, cut like a dream. Itinomonn kasumi is also an option, but at least mine is in the laser area while Watanabe is heavier (around 200g). For a first nakiri, Watanabe kurouchi pro 180mm is a great choice. I haven't used yet both M. Yuki and Kochi nakiris yet.


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## inzite (Mar 22, 2018)

TFTFTFTFTFTFTF!!!!


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## Andreu (Mar 22, 2018)

I dont know how soon you need the knife, but I am due to be back home tomorrow from a 2 weeks vacay. I picked up 3 nakiris (Y. Ikeda/Kasahara 165, Watanabe Pro KU 180, and Toyama 210) and will try them as soon as I get back. I can give you my assessment via PM afterwards if you would like.


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## QCDawg (Mar 22, 2018)

My Itinomonn is so sharp. The v2 core is crazy. Its thin. Basically stainless (cladding is completely stainless).


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## Matus (Mar 22, 2018)

I have tried a few and learned, than it is much harder to chop with a 200g nakiri, than with a 150g one. The tred goes towards 180 nakiris with 55+ mm lenght and while the blade shape by itself is great, it usually comes with weight that makes it harder to chop fast.

Since you are in UK check out the Masakage Koishi 165 Nakiri (from cuttingedgeknives.co.uk) it is taller than most and still not too heavy (mine is 175 g if I recall properly). 

A friend of mine has a shop in CZ and has a fresh batch of Moritaka knives (I am actually getting a 180 nakiri from him soon). Let me know should you be interested.

Than there is the dictum.de - they have several nakiris (for some reason call them 'usuba') - including stainless clad AS Kanehiro for very reasonable price. My friend has it (though he payed much more some time back from a US vendor) and I had a chance to use it. It is a great knife. They even have Shigefusa kurouchi nakiri (available !).

Itinomonn is going to be a solid choice too, I have no doubt about that.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 22, 2018)

inzite said:


> TFTFTFTFTFTFTF!!!!



+1. TF Denka 165mm is among my favorites too.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 22, 2018)

Matus said:


> I have tried a few and learned, than it is much harder to chop with a 200g nakiri, than with a 150g one. The tred goes towards 180 nakiris with 55+ mm lenght and while the blade shape by itself is great, it usually comes with weight that makes it harder to chop fast.



Interesting that in my opinion the added weight (around 200g) helps me due to the momentum. Have you already tried Yoshikane 165mm damascus V2 ( http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=89949 )? It's the best i've used of lightweight nakiris. Great to finely dice garlic.


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## Jovidah (Mar 22, 2018)

Matus said:


> I have tried a few and learned, than it is much harder to chop with a 200g nakiri, than with a 150g one. The tred goes towards 180 nakiris with 55+ mm lenght and while the blade shape by itself is great, it usually comes with weight that makes it harder to chop fast.


Hah! I had the same revelation when trying to use some (thank god it was cheap) heavy western-style bolstered VG-10 santoku that came in at 220 gr. It was just... clunky. My 7 euro vietnamese carbon garbage-laser exceeds it a million times in chopping ability...


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## toddnmd (Mar 22, 2018)

One comment about the standard plastic hilt on the Watanabe: I find the idea of it bothers me far more than anything else. I bought the 180 KU about six months ago, and was intending to rehandle it with an extra handle I have. I just haven't gotten around to it yet, and a good part of the reason is that, in use, the plastic hilt doesn't really matter. Overall, Watanabes are great values, as his knives perform very well for the price. But the handle upgrade makes the knife significantly more expensive, with little or no improvement in performance. I probably will swap the handle out at some point, but I have not yet felt like I have *needed* to do so.


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## Paraffin (Mar 22, 2018)

Just a note here that weight doesn't always correspond to size/length. My two nakiris, 57-56mm tall:

180mm Yu Kurosaki (R2 stainless, stainless clad): 163g
165mm Yoshikazu Ikeda (Blue #1, carbon clad): 220g

A little of that is difference in handle material (rosewood vs. ebony, respectively), but most of it is in the weight of the blades. The stainless Kurosaki is a thinner semi-laserish grind, and the Ikeda is a somewhat heftier convex grind. The feel in the hand is different, as you'd expect. I can get a nice fast swing going when mincing garlic or ginger with the shorter and heavier 165mm. The lighter 180mm still works fine for that, it's just not quite as nimble. On the other hand, I like the huge surface area of the 180mm for moving piles of food around, or dealing with larger things like cabbage. 

Neither of these nakiris fit the OP's requirements (one is ss, the other too expensive), just a comment on weight not always tracking size, when comparing different brands. Two different sizes from the same knife maker would probably have a direct relationship.


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## parbaked (Mar 22, 2018)

My 165 Shigefusa KU Nakiri weighed 200g and felt like a small cleaver in hand.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 22, 2018)

Thank you all for the speedy replies.

One thing I forgot to mention in the OP was the profile. Before researching, I'd have said I want it to be reasonably flat. Obviously not completely flat, I'm not stupid (well I am a bit, but that's beside the point). I'd prefer my Tanaka to have a flatter profile that it does, but as a gyuto I accept it is what it is. However, I see others have a similar preference, yet are quite happy with their relatively (in nakiri terms) curvaceous Watanabes, so I'm willing to accept my desire for a flatter belly may be unnecessary. Presumably this would be less of a concern on a 180mm than 165mm, although there's not a lot in it. 



Marcelo Amaral said:


> I really like Watanabe Pro 180mm nakiri. Super easy to sharpen, tall heel, stainless clad, cut like a dream. Itinomonn kasumi is also an option, but at least mine is in the laser area while Watanabe is heavier (around 200g).


Yeah it's a tough one. Before I started researching I thought I'd want a laser - I'm gentle with my knife (don't have the time pressures of a pro) and my Tanaka isn't a laser, so it would be nice to have both. But a lot seem to prefer the chunkier Watanabe style, with weight for chopping, so perhaps a laser isn't right for me.


> For a first nakiri


Let's nip this in the bud right now. This won't be my first Nakiri, it will be my only Nakiri. DW didn't find out how much my Tanaka cost for 6 months. I clearly don't need a Nakiri, I just want one, and I can't easily afford it. I'm planning on this largely being my birthday present (combined from everyone  )



Andreu said:


> I dont know how soon you need the knife, but I am due to be back home tomorrow from a 2 weeks vacay. I picked up 3 nakiris (Y. Ikeda/Kasahara 165, Watanabe Pro KU 180, and Toyama 210) and will try them as soon as I get back. I can give you my assessment via PM afterwards if you would like.


I'd love your assessment, thank you. PM is fine, but obviously anything you can put on the thread will help others too.



Matus said:


> I have tried a few and learned, than it is much harder to chop with a 200g nakiri, than with a 150g one.


A great man once said 'To everyone who is just toying with the idea to get their first one I would recommend not to follow recently developed standard KKF recommendation to get 180 mm one, but to get the more common (should I say standard) 165 size'.
Well, I don't actually know that you're a man, and I'm guessing a little on the greatness 



> The tred goes towards 180 nakiris with 55+ mm lenght and while the blade shape by itself is great, it usually comes with weight that makes it harder to chop fast.


I guess that one problem with the 165 for many here is that they're professional and need to be able to handle big produce, or multiple smaller items for speed. I'm a slow home cook, and it's rare that I need to prep something a 165 couldn't handle with ease.



> Since you are in UK check out the Masakage Koishi 165 Nakiri (from cuttingedgeknives.co.uk) it is taller than most and still not too heavy (mine is 175 g if I recall properly).


Yes I've looked at that one too (it's cutting edge I'd go to for a Masakage). There was a quick look at the pair here: [video=youtube;gYvjb5CkVG4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYvjb5CkVG4&t=498s[/video]
I accept that's not a full review, and provided by a vendor, but there didn't look to be a lot in it, and the Yuki is a fair bit cheaper. I get the impression the Koishi is better on root veg though (from the video, and other reviews).



> A friend of mine has a shop in CZ and has a fresh batch of Moritaka knives (I am actually getting a 180 nakiri from him soon). Let me know should you be interested.


Cool, what can you tell me about the Moritakas? All I know for sure is that I want a Nakiri.



> Itinomonn is going to be a solid choice too, I have no doubt about that.


Agreed, their Gyuto is super popular. I'd just like to try and understand the differences between each option to help me make a better educated guess.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 22, 2018)

toddnmd said:


> One comment about the standard plastic hilt on the Watanabe: I find the idea of it bothers me far more than anything else. I bought the 180 KU about six months ago, and was intending to rehandle it with an extra handle I have. I just haven't gotten around to it yet, and a good part of the reason is that, in use, the plastic hilt doesn't really matter.


It certainly wouldn't matter, but this thing will last me until I'm too infirm to use a knife, and I won't pay to have it re-handled, so may as well get it right now.


> Overall, Watanabes are great values, as his knives perform very well for the price. But the handle upgrade makes the knife significantly more expensive, with little or no improvement in performance.


That only really applies to the 180mm, as the 165mm doesn't come with a plastic hilt. Go figure.



Paraffin said:


> Just a note here that weight doesn't always correspond to size/length.


I knew that bit, but


> I can get a nice fast swing going when mincing garlic or ginger with the shorter and heavier 165mm.


I didn't know that, that's really helpful. I really think the 165 will be more suitable for me, but on the Watanabe site he recommends the 180 for people over 170cm, and so many people here like the 180.


> Neither of these nakiris fit the OP's requirements (one is ss, the other too expensive)


I'm not actually against ss (happy with my Tanaka, and it's easier to maintain) I just assume I'll have more good choices with a carbon core.


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## laxdad (Mar 22, 2018)

If it's going to be your one and only nakiri, get the 180 Watanabe. There is a reason why it gets recommended so often.

Mine is just under 200g and does not feel particularly heavy in hand. Of course, YMMV.


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## bosco (Mar 22, 2018)

I just traded of a 180mm takeda nakiri. inhave learned that I am not really a nakiri fan. Good luck in your search


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 22, 2018)

If you covet the Kato 180 nakiri, then I would take a look at the Hinoura 175 white #1 nakiri. And at less than 200 bucks its one of the best values! You can find them at JCK and other places.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 22, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> Let's nip this in the bud right now. This won't be my first Nakiri, it will be my only Nakiri.



Well, just keep coming back for a couple of birthdays... :whistling:

As for the horn versus platic hilt, i wouldn't think twice asking Watanabe-san for a horn one if plastic is an issue. An extra 56 bucks could save you the bother. However, if you don't care about it, plastic do the job, as toddnmd said.


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## Paraffin (Mar 22, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> I really think the 165 will be more suitable for me, but on the Watanabe site he recommends the 180 for people over 170cm, and so many people here like the 180.



I can understand the logic about body size, but in practice it doesn't seem to matter. I'm 188cm tall with fairly large hands, and I use the 165mm most of the time. I used to think 180mm was the perfect size for a nakiri, but that's just an abstract notion. In practice and on the board, I like the way this particular 165mm feels, not just the weight but the grind, ease of sharpening vs. edge retention, all that stuff. I shift to the 180mm mainly for larger produce, or if I have huge piles of stuff to move around on the board. 

And FWIW, my wife is a head shorter than me, and she likes using the 180mm nakiri. That's mainly because she won't touch the carbon knives (her preference, not mine), but the size hasn't been a problem with her much smaller hands. Maybe the lighter weight helps, I dunno.


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## Matus (Mar 22, 2018)

Haha, I am a man indeed, but I would not put too much expectations into the greatness [emoji3]

I do not have a personal experience with Moritaka yet and I am aware of the mixed feedback available on this site, but those reports are a few years old - there might have been changes to QC. The HT of the steel is supposed to be good. The grind should make sense. It made me curios, so I decided to give it a try. I should have mine in a few weeks (not related to availability).

I would add one remark on the weight. It is not just light versus heavy, but also how the weight is distributed plays a big role. For example a 200g 165 nakiri with a heavier handle may feel more nimble than a 180 nakiri with a lightweight handle with the same weight. In my experience (and contrary to my naive expectation) the nakiri will feel less suitable for fast chopping if the center of mass is too far from a the heel. It will start to slow you down and loose the feel of a precision.

With that said, I agree that a nakiri should not be laser behind the edge as gentle wedging is going ng to be less of a problem than stiction. Not too wide wide bevel might be just perfect. I have in mind here a grind like on older Takedas or how Bryan Raquin grinds his knives I have a 195 tall gyuto from Bryan and it is better for chopping than my Koishi nakiri (which is a good knife)


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## Triggaaar (Mar 22, 2018)

laxdad said:


> If it's going to be your one and only nakiri, get the 180 Watanabe. There is a reason why it gets recommended so often.


Thank you. But what is that reason? Many people (not all) just reply to the nakiri threads saying 'get the Watanabe' without explaining.



Marcelo Amaral said:


> Well, just keep coming back for a couple of birthdays... :whistling:


Sorry, I meant to say it will be my only Nakiri, this year :whistling:



> As for the horn versus platic hilt, i wouldn't think twice asking Watanabe-san for a horn one if plastic is an issue. An extra 56 bucks could save you the bother. However, if you don't care about it, plastic do the job, as toddnmd said.


I just won't get the plastic 



Paraffin said:


> I can understand the logic about body size, but in practice it doesn't seem to matter. I'm 188cm tall with fairly large hands, and I use the 165mm most of the time. I used to think 180mm was the perfect size for a nakiri, but that's just an abstract notion. In practice and on the board, I like the way this particular 165mm feels, not just the weight but the grind, ease of sharpening vs. edge retention, all that stuff. I shift to the 180mm mainly for larger produce, or if I have huge piles of stuff to move around on the board.


Really useful, thanks.


> And FWIW, my wife is a head shorter than me, and she likes using the 180mm nakiri.


Ok, not so useful 


> That's mainly because she won't touch the carbon knives (her preference, not mine)


Ah yes, your 180 is lighter - got it, thanks.



Matus said:


> I would add one remark on the weight. It is not just light versus heavy, but also how the weight is distributed plays a big role. For example a 200g 165 nakiri with a heavier handle may feel more nimble than a 180 nakiri with a lightweight handle with the same weight. In my experience (and contrary to my naive expectation) the nakiri will feel less suitable for fast chopping if the center of mass is too far from a the heel. It will start to slow you down and loose the feel of a precision.


Useful, thank you.

So I'm thinking ...
I can't see a good reason for me to get a 180mm (of course they are the right choice for many others, but probably not this home cook. Which leaves me with:
Watanabe 165mm (because although sent from Japan, everyone is happy with theirs)
or a Masakage 165mm (not sure which), because they're generally well received and sent from the UK, so I can return if it's not right
There are others available in the UK too that I may have missed, please let me know if so


If I was in the US I'd be constantly on JKI, but shipping and tax is a pain.


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## Matus (Mar 22, 2018)

I once asked Watanabe about it and his 165 nakiri should weight 175 g


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## Matus (Mar 22, 2018)

What about 165 Yoshihiro AS nakiri (ebay). It looks really nice


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## LucasFur (Mar 22, 2018)

You really dont want a Nakiri, you want a flat profiled gyuto. 

LOL HAHAHAJAJAJAJA. :rofl2:


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## daddy yo yo (Mar 22, 2018)

Watanabe. Thread can be closed. :viking:


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## Triggaaar (Mar 22, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> I'm aware that the Watanabes are the most recommended here, they are an option. Whatever you recommend, please say what it is about the knife that you like (you can't say everything) compared to the alternatives.





daddy yo yo said:


> Watanabe. Thread can be closed. :viking:


:no:


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## Triggaaar (Mar 22, 2018)

Matus said:


> What about 165 Yoshihiro AS nakiri (ebay). It looks really nice


You can't buy kitchen knives on ebay in the UK.


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## Matus (Mar 22, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> You can't buy kitchen knives on ebay in the UK.



But you can buy them from other online sources?


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## StonedEdge (Mar 22, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> You can't buy kitchen knives on ebay in the UK.


Thank God! People will now be safe from blade-related violence. *Sarcasm


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## Triggaaar (Mar 22, 2018)

Matus said:


> But you can buy them from other online sources?


Yes. I don't know if it's ebay's policy or what.


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## laxdad (Mar 22, 2018)

I'll caveat my response by saying that I'm a home cook. I haven't tried a huge number of different nakiris, just a few knives owned by friends and family. 

What I like about the Watanabe is that it is more substantial than the other models I've tried. It's not heavy, but is noticeable in hand. I prefer that feeling. I think being a bit more substantial helps the Watanabe cut. In general, I favor middleweight knives over lasers. Others may have the opposite preference.

Watanabe blue steel is known to have good edge retention. However as a home cook with more knives than I need in rotation, I rarely need to sharpen any of my knives.


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## WifeNotUnderstand (Mar 22, 2018)

Hi
I have the Shiro Kamo R2 170 from CKTG - its on run out at the moment for $145 - a $45 discount. It would be a lot of knife for the $. Gets fantastically sharp and has the ability to 'ghost' through softer foods i.e. potatoes


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## dafox (Mar 22, 2018)

You might like to take a look at the Wakui 165mm Nakiri Shirogami #2 Red Ebony 'D' 
http://bernal-cutlery.shoplightspeed.com/wakui-165mm-nakiri-shirogami-2-red-ebony-d.html
3.8mm on the spine above the heel tapering to 1.2 at the end, 166grams so has some heft, stainless clad W#2 with a thin grind and no "shoulders" to slow down its cutting ability. The heavier rosewood handle provides a good balance, a bit blade heavy but not too much so. I tried the Wat Pro 165 but prefer the Wakui, the Wat was too curvy for me and had very distinct "shoulders". I also like longer necks for my grip and got a Wakui with a 15mm one. The Wakui sells for $155 in the US.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 22, 2018)

WifeNotUnderstand said:


> Hi
> I have the Shiro Kamo R2 170 from CKTG - its on run out at the moment for $145 - a $45 discount. It would be a lot of knife for the $. Gets fantastically sharp and has the ability to 'ghost' through softer foods i.e. potatoes


That does look like a good price in the US, but getting it over the pond would cost a chunk.



dafox said:


> You might like to take a look at the Wakui 165mm Nakiri Shirogami #2 Red Ebony 'D'


Yeah I've seen you comment before that you prefer it over the Watanabe.



> 3.8mm on the spine above the heel tapering to 1.2 at the end, 166grams so has some heft, stainless clad W#2 with a thin grind and no "shoulders" to slow down its cutting ability. The heavier rosewood handle provides a good balance, a bit blade heavy but not too much so. I tried the Wat Pro 165 but prefer the Wakui, the Wat was too curvy for me and had very distinct "shoulders".


Sounds good, I'm concerned the Wat will be too curvy. Buying from the US isn't ideal though, as we seem to pay for it to be imported to the US (included in the price), then shipped to the UK and taxed.


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## laxdad (Mar 22, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> I'm concerned the Wat will be too curvy.



An example of different strokes for different folks. I like a bit of curvature with my push cutting motion. The Watababe still has enough of a flat spot for chopping. I also don't mind the shoulders on the Watanabe because it helps with food release.


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## Drosophil (Mar 23, 2018)

laxdad said:


> An example of different strokes for different folks. I like a bit of curvature with my push cutting motion. The Watababe still has enough of a flat spot for chopping. I also don't mind the shoulders on the Watanabe because it helps with food release.



This.

Plus, after the shoulders, it gets really thin, so you get a combo of pretty lasery cutting with plenty of heft from the thick spine. It goes better through sweet potatoes than my laser gyuto.


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## Chef Doom (Mar 24, 2018)

I'm not even going to bother reading all of your post or this thread. I will simpler tell you to get a cleaver. Not one of those inexpensive CCK versions for $40 used by back alley cooks. Get something solid that will make you feel like you are the head chef in the emperor's kitchen.


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## Matus (Mar 24, 2018)

CD, he wants to CHOP [emoji846] not exactly what vegetable cleaver excels in.


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## McMan (Mar 24, 2018)

FWIW, Wakui nakiri is a much flatter profile than Wat nakiri. Wakui is also thinner overall.


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## Hanmak17 (Mar 24, 2018)

Edit: So you asked why everyone loves the Wat. As another poster noted, it is an interesting knife. It is fairly thick at the spine with a very comfortable area to pinch (grip). The knife has a bit of heft to it, yet is seemingly laser like at the edge. Not a WH, but a beefy knife that separates food very quickly and smoothly. Once cut, food rides up the blade and hits the shoulder/KU finish then tends to fall away vs stick and ride up the blade and fall over the top (which I hate). Virtually nothing sticks to it. The edge is super durable, I have stropped it once in 3 months and would say it's still 95% of a freshly sharpened edge (this is with fairly regular use). I did sharpen the 165 that I tried and loved the experience, sort of wanted to keep sharpening it if that makes sense. It feels really good on the stones. 

One thing I will say, the 165 is too small IMO. I noticed the size constantly and always felt that I wanted it to be bigger. Once I tried the 180, it just fell into place. Only negative I will give the 180 is that it is a bit blade heavy for my tastes, obviously not to the point I would knock the knife but it is the one area I might improve (having a custom wa handle built for it that will have a little weight added to the heel to counter balance a bit). 

I also tried the Masakage Yuki. Quite a bit lighter then the 180 Wat (a bit more then the 165, though I never weighed them). Again the size turned me off and the FF isn't anything to write home about. Very good knife, flies through produce. But if I could afford the Wat there would be no hesitation in choosing it. The other point I would make is if you don't like it for any reason, it would be much easier to sell at or near your cost then the Masakage. The Wat Pro 180 is the "Safest" choice IMO.


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## Noodle Soup (Mar 24, 2018)

Matus said:


> CD, he wants to CHOP [emoji846] not exactly what vegetable cleaver excels in.



It isn't??? I'm missing something here.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 24, 2018)

McMan said:


> FWIW, Wakui nakiri is a much flatter profile than Wat nakiri.


Yeah someone posted pics of the two on top of graph paper. I would guess I'd like the flatter profile more (it's my only real concern about the Wat), but those who get the Wat say the profile seems right. Did you find the profile (particularly on the shorter Wat 165) too curved for chopping?

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/34840-Nakiri-profile/page2?highlight=nakiri



> Wakui is also thinner overall.


Yeah I have no idea if I want the thin or the thick type 



Hanmak17 said:


> Edit: So you asked why everyone loves the Wat. As another poster noted, it is an interesting knife. It is fairly thick at the spine with a very comfortable area to pinch (grip). The knife has a bit of heft to it, yet is seemingly laser like at the edge. Not a WH, but a beefy knife that separates food very quickly and smoothly. Once cut, food rides up the blade and hits the shoulder/KU finish then tends to fall away vs stick and ride up the blade and fall over the top (which I hate). Virtually nothing sticks to it. The edge is super durable, I have stropped it once in 3 months and would say it's still 95% of a freshly sharpened edge (this is with fairly regular use). I sharpened the 165 I tried and loved it. Sort of wanted to keep sharpening it if that makes sense. It feels really good on the stones.


Really useful, thank you.



> One thing I will say, the 165 is too small IMO. I noticed the size constantly and always felt that I wanted it to be bigger.


Although the 180 Wat seems the popular choice on here, most Nakiris are 165, and when I see them in use on YT they don't look to small for the job (unless the job cabbage etc). What size Gyuto to you prefer? And what were you chopping that needed that much length?



> Once I tried the 180, it just fell into place. Only negative I will give the 180 is that it is a bit blade heavy for my tastes, obviously not to the point I would knock the knife but it is the one area I might improve (having a custom wa handle built for it that will have a little weight added to the heel to counter balance a bit).


Well it is available with a choice of a few handles - or do you mean something heavier than those?



> I also tried the Masakage Yuki. Quite a bit lighter then the 180 Wat (a bit more then the 165, though I never weighed them). Again the size turned me off and the FF isn't anything to write home about. Very good knife, flies through produce. But if I could afford the Wat there would be no hesitation in choosing it. The other point I would make is if you don't like it for any reason, it would be much easier to sell at or near your cost then the Masakage.


Good point, although I could at least dry test the Masakage and return if not suitable. Or the Masakage Koishi for a heavier version with better FF.



> The Wat Pro 180 is the "Safest" choice IMO.


It looks like that's the case for most people here. Unless there's not enough blade in contact with the board on the 165, I imagine it's better for effortless fast chopping.

Thanks for all the comments, much appreciated.


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## McMan (Mar 24, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> Did you find the profile (particularly on the shorter Wat 165) too curved for chopping?
> 
> Nope. Not much of an issue if you put a little push (or pull) into the chop.


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## Paraffin (Mar 24, 2018)

Matus said:


> CD, he wants to CHOP [emoji846] not exactly what vegetable cleaver excels in.



Yeah, that's an issue here, I think. Not all of us define chop the same way. Some push-pull, others hammer or "walk" the blade (bad for chip-prone hard steels). I'm a hammer chopper, not moving the blade and moving the product underneath.

I just spent the afternoon cutting up a bunch of plum tomatoes, bell peppers, celery, carrots, onion and garlic for a vegetable chili (I'm not vegetarians, it's just a nice change of pace). Used my 165mm nakiri. Everything was push-pull or pull-sliced except for the garlic, which was sliced first, then chopped -- WHACK WHACK WHACK WHACK -- fast vertical rhythmic swinging chop on a pile of sliced garlic, varying the angle and scooping together with the front edge of the nakiri when the pile got unruly. Same thing I do with ginger for Chinese meals. 

My 165mm Yoshikazu Ikeda has what I think is a typical blade profile, flat near the back and then a slow rise into a curve up to the tip. I do that swinging chop aiming for product somewhere near the middle of the blade. I'm no expert but it works for me. WHACK WHACK WHACK WHACK.

I couldn't do this with a big heavy (but thin) Chinese cleaver, because I'd be swinging more mass of metal up and down. Can't argue with physics if you need a certain action.


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## Hanmak17 (Mar 24, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> Yeah someone posted pics of the two on top of graph paper. I would guess I'd like the flatter profile more (it's my only real concern about the Wat), but those who get the Wat say the profile seems right. Did you find the profile (particularly on the shorter Wat 165) too curved for chopping?
> 
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/34840-Nakiri-profile/page2?highlight=nakiri
> 
> ...



Answering in order of your questions:

1. I have a Takamura R2 Gyuto which is one of the thinnest blades available in market. The knife is so thin the blade has a tendency to bury itself in the board, to the point you can feel it sticking in the board. It is really fun to cut with because it something akin to cutting with a razor blade. But in reality it is a bit much. You need to be really careful not to twist when chopping or slicing as the blade chips pretty easily. My point here is finding a blade that will cut like that without the edge digging or chipping because it is so thin and fragile, seems to be the grail quest many on here are pusuing. The Wat is a far cry from that but has a very thin feeling to it, as does the Masa Yuki, the Koishi less so. It slices through product vs separating product if that makes sense. 

2. Yes most are 165, I'd see if you can find a 165 somewhere, any knife, just to get the feel of a 165, its really small. By the way I am not a big guy and don't have big hands. All of my Gyuto's are 210's, though I am having a 220 custom made right now. 

3. Yes it is available with a number of handles. Mine (which I purchased used here) came with the burnt chestnut, which I really like, but wait till you see the new handle. :bigeek: Takes the knife to a whole nother level brother... 

4. If you can try the Masakage go for it. The Koishi is a much nicer FF and the blade is similar in some respects to the Wat. The Yuki is an excellent cutter, but it lacks that special quality IMO. If your going to spend this much money on a knife, it better pop for you. 

5. Yes it is better for effortless fast chopping, which is probably why I like it. I am a bit OCD, while I'm not a professional chef, I did learn cut just out of curiosity. When I need to plow through a lot of veggies, I turn to the Wat and chop away. I like the blade height as it allows me to rest the side of the blade against the protruding knuckles of my left hand. But the knife is also a great slicer, for push cutting. Oh and it has a thing for crushing garlic, criminal, absolutely criminal....LOL


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## Triggaaar (Mar 25, 2018)

Thanks all for the replies again, I appreciate it.



Triggaaar said:


> Did you find the profile (particularly on the shorter Wat 165) too curved for chopping?





McMan said:


> Nope. Not much of an issue if you put a little push (or pull) into the chop.


Although I like to push or pull sometimes, I also like to chop straight up and down sometimes, like when dicing onions. I can do these things with my gyuto, but I'd like a nakiri to be a bit better at the chopping part.



Paraffin said:


> Yeah, that's an issue here, I think. Not all of us define chop the same way. Some push-pull, others hammer or "walk" the blade (bad for chip-prone hard steels). I'm a hammer chopper, not moving the blade and moving the product underneath.


I'm aware the cleavers are all about chopping, but ASAIK it's more with the arm than the wrist. You lift the cleaver up, put it in position, maybe give it a nudge forward and hold on as it drops. Cool, but a different technique and not what I'm after this time round (fatboylim will make me buy a cck one day  ). Re how I chop: I thought walking referred to leaving the tip in the same place, and walking the rest of the blade along the produce, like with herbs - I don't do that. When chopping I keep the produce still and my left claw grip walks backwards. Although the blade is moving sideways, hopefully only at the top to get to my new claw position?



> I couldn't do this with a big heavy (but thin) Chinese cleaver, because I'd be swinging more mass of metal up and down.


Yeah that's my thinking too. A cleaver one day, but not this time.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 25, 2018)

Hanmak17 said:


> 1. I have a Takamura R2 Gyuto which is one of the thinnest blades available in market.


Ah yes, the red handle. It was on my list when looking for a gyuto.


> The knife is so thin the blade has a tendency to bury itself in the board, to the point you can feel it sticking in the board. It is really fun to cut with because it something akin to cutting with a razor blade. But in reality it is a bit much. You need to be really careful not to twist when chopping or slicing as the blade chips pretty easily. My point here is finding a blade that will cut like that without the edge digging or chipping because it is so thin and fragile, seems to be the grail quest many on here are pusuing. The Wat is a far cry from that but has a very thin feeling to it, as does the Masa Yuki, the Koishi less so. It slices through product vs separating product if that makes sense.


Oh you've used all 3? That's really helpful, thanks. I had guessed that the Koishi was a little more similar to the Wat. If it doesn't feel as thin as the Wat when going through food I might as well cross it off the list. I assume the Wakui is also quite thin like the Yuki.



> 2. Yes most are 165, I'd see if you can find a 165 somewhere, any knife, just to get the feel of a 165, its really small. By the way I am not a big guy and don't have big hands. All of my Gyuto's are 210's, though I am having a 220 custom made right now.


I've just found some cheapo 160mm Santoku, but it can't really be compared, it only weighed 85g! I'm happy with my 210 gyuto, but I take point of Matus that the extra force (due to distance from fulcrum) of a 180 makes the effortless chopping require more, er, effort. I don't know  Where's @TheCaptain!



> 4. If you can try the Masakage go for it. The Koishi is a much nicer FF and the blade is similar in some respects to the Wat. The Yuki is an excellent cutter, but it lacks that special quality IMO. If your going to spend this much money on a knife, it better pop for you.


Well 'this much money' is quite different on the Yuki and Wat. Yuki is £138 delivered, Wat is £189 + shipping + tax, so maybe double.



> 5. Yes it is better for effortless fast chopping, which is probably why I like it.


I was talking about the 165 Wat right? But I assume you're talking about the 180?

Thanks


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## Hanmak17 (Mar 25, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> Ah yes, the red handle. It was on my list when looking for a gyuto.
> Oh you've used all 3? That's really helpful, thanks. I had guessed that the Koishi was a little more similar to the Wat. If it doesn't feel as thin as the Wat when going through food I might as well cross it off the list. I assume the Wakui is also quite thin like the Yuki.
> 
> I've just found some cheapo 160mm Santoku, but it can't really be compared, it only weighed 85g! I'm happy with my 210 gyuto, but I take point of Matus that the extra force (due to distance from fulcrum) of a 180 makes the effortless chopping require more, er, effort. I don't know  Where's @TheCaptain!
> ...



Yes the 180. And honestly if you don't buy the Wat your crazy. I was just feeling the edge after making stir fry tonight, this thing is still razor sharp after weeks of work with no touch ups. Shinichi's metalurgy skills really are best in class.


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## Marek07 (Mar 26, 2018)

I get the feeling that you're leaning towards a nakiri that's 165mm in length. If you are, may I suggest the Teruyasu Fujiwara in nashiji finish. 

@inzite already responded in post #3 with "TFTFTFTFTFTFTF!!!!" and @Marcelo Amaral said he loved his TF Denka. Denkas are seriously expensive but you can also get the Maboroshi line or the humble nashiji. The 165mm nashiji nakiri is an absolutely delightful cutter, responds really well to stones and stropping and is a serious bargain - $103 delivered! Can't think of an easier way to experience your first nakiri.

For the record, I have the Watanabe 180mm and it's a great knife - all the recommendations for it are spot on. However, for my tastes it has a little bit too much curve - YMMV. Still very good for bigger jobs but I go to the TF more often than the Wat.


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## JayGee (Mar 26, 2018)

I have a masamoto kk 165 nakiri that I really like. Wh2 kurouchi - it's not a very fancy finish, but good oval handle with blond horn. It gets very very sharp but doesn't at all feel like you have to be delicate with it. I cut things with it that I would ordinarily use my old wustoff for and never have problems. Doesn't chip and holds a sharp edge a long time. I use it a lot, as much as 240 gyuto.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 26, 2018)

Hanmak17 said:


> Yes the 180. And honestly if you don't buy the Wat your crazy.


:biggrin:


> I was just feeling the edge after making stir fry tonight, this thing is still razor sharp after weeks of work with no touch ups. Shinichi's metalurgy skills really are best in class.


I completely trust that the metal work is great. Thin behind the edge, anti wedging, holds it's edge etc. Ignoring money, the only concern I have with the Wat is the curve of the belly. And then whether I'd want the 165 or 180 Wat. I get the feeling the 165 would be more agile and better at easy chopping than its big brother. Apart from being able to tackle larger produce, or chop more of one produce at a time, what does the 180 offer over the 165?



Marek07 said:


> I get the feeling that you're leaning towards a nakiri that's 165mm in length.


That's my gut feeling, but I'm not going to ignore all the good advice here, as many prefer the 180.



> If you are, may I suggest the Teruyasu Fujiwara in nashiji finish.
> 
> @inzite already responded in post #3 with "TFTFTFTFTFTFTF!!!!"


Oh so that's what he was talking about. I've seen TFTFTFTF before and had no idea what it was.



> and @Marcelo Amaral said he loved his TF Denka.


And only £440!



> For the record, I have the Watanabe 180mm and it's a great knife - all the recommendations for it are spot on. However, for my tastes it has a little bit too much curve


That's my concern. In practice, how does that extra curve negatively affect the knife for you? Does it mean you have to rock finish your chopping, or what?



> Still very good for bigger jobs but I go to the TF more often than the Wat.


Which TF do you have? The Maboroshi (OOS) is £144 + tax - not bad, I'll try and find out more about that. The one I see on the site that's cheaper is only 140g, which isn't going to cut it.


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## Hanmak17 (Mar 26, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> :biggrin:
> 
> 1. Apart from being able to tackle larger produce, or chop more of one produce at a time, what does the 180 offer over the 165?
> 
> 2. How does that extra curve negatively affect the knife for you? Does it mean you have to rock finish your chopping, or what?



1. The 180 is a taller blade (10 cm I think) which makes the blade far more functional when using it to scoop up all the produce you just chopped. Also because there is no tip on a Nakiri, with a 180 your not wedging the nose of the blade in produce that would otherwise be deeper then the length of the blade. With a Gyuto this is not a problem, because the tip is sharp and narrow. I found the 165 too short for this reason. With regards to chopping, the added weight of the 180 eliminates the need to put any muscle behind it. It is cleaner, easier and safer IMO.

2. For the same reasons as above, the longer blade of the 180 allows for some curvature at the end of the knife. I suspect that curvature is there to facilitate slicing and rock chopping which is difficult with a really flat blade. Beyond the first 20% of the edge, the knife is essentially flat, giving you plenty of area to chop with. Two effective areas to cut with distinctly different styles. I would note that the belly does not impair performance in chopping motion. 

On the smaller 165 all of these things are harder to achieve because the effective edge real estate is so small.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 26, 2018)

Really useful again Hanmak, thank you.


Hanmak17 said:


> 1. The 180 is a taller blade (10 cm I think)


Er, are you sure you haven't got a Chinese cleaver? :wink: The Wat site says the 180 should be 56mm, I've seen 62mm written on the forum. 


> which makes the blade far more functional when using it to scoop up all the produce you just chopped.


That's not going to be an issue for me, I know the slightly shorter 165 would be fine.


> Also because there is no tip on a Nakiri, with a 180 your not wedging the nose of the blade in produce that would otherwise be deeper then the length of the blade. With a Gyuto this is not a problem, because the tip is sharp and narrow. I found the 165 too short for this reason. With regards to chopping, the added weight of the 180 eliminates the need to put any muscle behind it. It is cleaner, easier and safer IMO.


All good points, thanks.



> 2. For the same reasons as above, the longer blade of the 180 allows for some curvature at the end of the knife. I suspect that curvature is there to facilitate slicing and rock chopping which is difficult with a really flat blade. Beyond the first 20% of the edge, the knife is essentially flat, giving you plenty of area to chop with. Two effective areas to cut with distinctly different styles. I would note that the belly does not impair performance in chopping motion.
> 
> On the smaller 165 all of these things are harder to achieve because the effective edge real estate is so small.


All really good points, thanks. So while the belly of the 165 might be an issue for me, it's unlikely it would be on the 180.


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## Hanmak17 (Mar 26, 2018)

By the way, Carbon, has a Fujiwara Teruyasu 165mm nakiri on sale right now. Nice knife for the money.


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## chinacats (Mar 26, 2018)

If you buy a tf, be prepared for possible bumpy blade road, crappy finish, etc. As to size, I've owned a few 165 nakiris and found them all to be too short to be useful. If I were looking for a nakiri I'd buy the 180 wat. If I wanted to get down chopping some real deal food I'd buy a full size vege slicing cleaver...I don't believe the people who say they're too big for chopping have used them enough to know


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## StonedEdge (Mar 26, 2018)

Just get the Wat and be done with it.


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## gaijin (Mar 26, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> Just get the Wat and be done with it.



This thread is a threat to my wallet.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 26, 2018)

Hanmak17 said:


> By the way, Carbon, has a Fujiwara Teruyasu 165mm nakiri on sale right now. Nice knife for the money.


Just searched and as guessed, that's a US site. I'm in the UK.



chinacats said:


> If you buy a tf, be prepared for possible bumpy blade road, crappy finish, etc.


I've searched and read through TF threads, and crossed them off the list  A great option for many I know, but I'm a newbie, and not ready to fix a new knife.



> As to size, I've owned a few 165 nakiris and found them all to be too short to be useful.


Thanks. Looking at the nakiri vids on YT (mostly 165s) they all look fine.


> If I wanted to get down chopping some real deal food I'd buy a full size vege slicing cleaver...I don't believe the people who say they're too big for chopping have used them enough to know


I think that must have come out wrong, of course they're not too big for chopping, cleavers are great for chopping. But it's a different chopping technique, and not one I'm going for with this purchase.



StonedEdge said:


> Just get the Wat and be done with it.


Which one?


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## StonedEdge (Mar 26, 2018)

Triggar I'd opt for a 180 pro series personally...but that's me.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 26, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> Triggar I'd opt for a 180 pro series personally...but that's me.


Thanks. Have you tried both?


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## StonedEdge (Mar 26, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> Thanks. Have you tried both?


Nope. Only the 180 very breifly (held it in hand, didn't get to chop with it sadly). 

However having a Watanabe 150 petty I can say a slightly longer Nakiri would be best.


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## Jkts (Mar 26, 2018)

You could always have shinichi custom make a nakiri for you with a slightly flatter profile and a length between 165 and 180...


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## Marek07 (Mar 26, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> That's my concern. In practice, how does that extra curve negatively affect the knife for you? Does it mean you have to rock finish your chopping, or what?
> 
> Which TF do you have? The Maboroshi (OOS) is £144 + tax - not bad, I'll try and find out more about that. The one I see on the site that's cheaper is only 140g, which isn't going to cut it.


If you're not going to ignore advice for a 180mm, get one. While you're at it, don't ignore the advice for a Watanabe nakiri - as I said, it's a great knife. What I perceived as more curved was based on already having a few nakiris with flatter profiles. In practice, it's not that significant unless you purely chop up and down without the slightest push/pull action. @TheCaptain and @valgard could advise further. Both have written about their experiences with the Wat 180 and both love it.

I have the nashiji TF which you say is too light for you. You mentioned "a little weight" in your OP. What weight are you after? The Maboroshi 165mm is OOS but just email him. He usually takes less than two weeks to make one. Be aware that he is notorious for inconsistent F&F even if his HT is spectacular.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 26, 2018)

Marek07 said:


> If you're not going to ignore advice for a 180mm, get one.


Unfortunately I'm also not ignoring the advice that says a shorter 165 is easier to fast chop with :scratchhead:


> While you're at it, don't ignore the advice for a Watanabe nakiri - as I said, it's a great knife. What I perceived as more curved was based on already having a few nakiris with flatter profiles. In practice, it's not that significant unless you purely chop up and down without the slightest push/pull action.


If you're fast chopping from the wrist I don't even know how you'd have a push/pull action? But I take your point that it's only curved compared to other nakiris, it's not like a gyuto.


> @TheCaptain and @valgard could advise further.


TheCaptain has tried every nakiri ever made, I've been hoping to hear from her, but she's not around ATM.


> I have the nashiji TF which you say is too light for you. You mentioned "a little weight" in your OP. What weight are you after?


From a lot of reading about nakiris, I understand that a little weight is helpful with the chopping. Of course each knife is different, and whether the weight is in the blade or handle affects it, but roughly speaking I'm thinking 160g or more (if it was a 165mm). I wouldn't really want to go over 200g.



> The Maboroshi 165mm is OOS but just email him. He usually takes less than two weeks to make one. Be aware that he is notorious for inconsistent F&F even if his HT is spectacular.


Yeah I can't take the risk on the F&F. Although F&F isn't top of my list of requirements, I'd like the knife reasonable OOTB, which is a lottery with TF.

Contenders:
Wat 180mm (although I'd think the 165 Wat was my ideal option, I'm still concerned about the curved belly, so maybe the 180 is better)
Wakui 170mm
Itinomonn 180mm (I've been offered one little used on pm, which I could try out)
Probably not the Masakage yuki, although it looks good value.


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## Marek07 (Mar 26, 2018)

Here's a couple of photos that might help you decide for yourself about the curve. 

Watanabe 180mm:




Shigefusa 165mm (though mine measures around 160mm):



And a cheapie for comparison. This is the Tojiro 165mm (F-699) which can be had for $56 delivered. Not on everyone's recommendation list but great value. Might be a little light for you at only 150g:


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## Paraffin (Mar 26, 2018)

At the risk of confusing the OP further with more opinions, that Watanabe 180mm in the photo just above has a lot more curve at the back of the blade than I would like. Too much rocker overall in the blade, but YMMV... I know these Watanabes are popular here.

For me, and I'm no expert so take this with a grain of salt... I like having a flat profile for the back half of the blade, and then a gentle rise to the tip. Like this, my 165mm Yoshikazu Ikeda suminigashi:






That gives me a nice curve at the front for slicing, the middle of the blade works for vertical chopping, and there is no "rocking" potential at the back of the blade. I want that part flat, and I use it to slice the tougher things like slices of ginger.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 27, 2018)

Marek07 said:


> Here's a couple of photos that might help you decide for yourself about the curve.


Yeah thanks, I saw these when you posted them in the 'Nakiri profile' thread:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/34840-Nakiri-profile?highlight=nakiri



> And a cheapie for comparison. This is the Tojiro 165mm (F-699) which can be had for $56 delivered. Not on everyone's recommendation list but great value. Might be a little light for you at only 150g:


At $56 I don't care how light it is  I don't think I can get it near that price in the UK though.



Paraffin said:


> At the risk of confusing the OP further with more opinions, that Watanabe 180mm in the photo just above has a lot more curve at the back of the blade than I would like.


You're not really confusing me, it's only the curve of the Wat the stopped me from simply starting a '165 or 180 Wat' thread. Just about everything else is great with the Wat though.

I know you're a nakiri fan Paraffin, I've read loads of your posts on them. Part of the reason I'm not after a very light nakiri is your posts about some weight helping the chopping motion etc spoke to me.


> For me, and I'm no expert so take this with a grain of salt... I like having a flat profile for the back half of the blade, and then a gentle rise to the tip.
> 
> That gives me a nice curve at the front for slicing, the middle of the blade works for vertical chopping, and there is no "rocking" potential at the back of the blade.


Yeah that sounds good. Still, we can't have everything.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 27, 2018)

Andreu said:


> I dont know how soon you need the knife, but I am due to be back home tomorrow from a 2 weeks vacay. I picked up 3 nakiris (Y. Ikeda/Kasahara 165, Watanabe Pro KU 180, and Toyama 210) and will try them as soon as I get back. I can give you my assessment via PM afterwards if you would like.


Hope you enjoyed your vacay Andreu. Fun time is over, let's have the assessment please! :doublethumbsup:


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## Triggaaar (Mar 27, 2018)

Watanabe question:
When dicing onions I halve them, do a few lateral cuts and a lot of vertical cuts before turning 90 degrees and chopping vertically. Is the Watanabe a little thick, meaning that the first vertical cuts pull the onion apart a little while you're still trying to keep it all together, or is it just not that thick? (I know it's thin behind the edge, but you're going all the way through the onion while trying to keep it together)


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## Drosophil (Mar 27, 2018)

It's not that thick, so it won't tear it apart, but it slows down a bit (I wouldn't call it wedging) because of the large blade area when doing vertical cuts through bigger onions. Tilting the "tip" down a bit and doing draw cuts instead of straight up and down chopping solves the issue completely. Whether you're comfortable with that is up to you. I still prefer a gyuto for onions, though.


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## Marek07 (Mar 27, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> Yeah thanks, I saw these when you posted them in the 'Nakiri profile' thread:
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/34840-Nakiri-profile?highlight=nakiri
> 
> At $56 I don't care how light it is  I don't think I can get it near that price in the UK though.


Damn my ageing brain cells! Totally forgot I'd posted them! Well researched sir. At least the Tojiro nakiri pic was new.

You can actually get the Tojiro nakiri for less but I think someone mentioned you can't buy knives on eBay in the UK. So in your case, if it appeals, you can get it from https://chefknivesjapan.com/product...asuki-sirogami-white-steel-nakiri-knife-f-699 for $56 ($48 + $8 shipping). An extra $8 for EMS.


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## Chef Doom (Mar 27, 2018)

Paraffin said:


> Yeah, that's an issue here, I think. Not all of us define chop the same way. Some push-pull, others hammer or "walk" the blade (bad for chip-prone hard steels). I'm a hammer chopper, not moving the blade and moving the product underneath.
> 
> I just spent the afternoon cutting up a bunch of plum tomatoes, bell peppers, celery, carrots, onion and garlic for a vegetable chili (I'm not vegetarians, it's just a nice change of pace). Used my 165mm nakiri. Everything was push-pull or pull-sliced except for the garlic, which was sliced first, then chopped -- WHACK WHACK WHACK WHACK -- fast vertical rhythmic swinging chop on a pile of sliced garlic, varying the angle and scooping together with the front edge of the nakiri when the pile got unruly. Same thing I do with ginger for Chinese meals.
> 
> ...


Once you learn to let gravity work it's evil magic, working a large piece of metal becomes easy as the blade starts to do a large portion of the work for you. An all purpose cleaner can handle a wide range of cutting styles.


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## Chef Doom (Mar 27, 2018)

Matus said:


> CD, he wants to CHOP [emoji846] not exactly what vegetable cleaver excels in.


Cleavers were made for chopping, slicing and dicing. It's everything it claims to be in the infomercial.


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## chinacats (Mar 27, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> Once you learn to let gravity work it's evil magic, working a large piece of metal becomes easy as the blade starts to do a large portion of the work for you. An all purpose cleaner can handle a wide range of cutting styles.



Yep...weight does all the work for you...most of what I do is chop and cleaver is best knife for this...though I prefer a veggie slicer.


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## StonedEdge (Mar 27, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> Cleavers were made for chopping, slicing and dicing. It's everything it claims to be in the infomercial.


But wait! There's more!


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## Jkts (Mar 27, 2018)

Have watanabe make yours flatter, best of both worlds...


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## Triggaaar (Mar 28, 2018)

What foods are the weightier nakiris (Toyoma, Watnabe) better at cutting, when compared with the thinner nakiris (Wakui, Masakage Yuki etc)?
What foods are the thinner nakirs better at cutting
and what foods are cut just as well with either?



Jkts said:


> Have watanabe make yours flatter, best of both worlds...


I'm a cheapskate and that sounds expensive


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 28, 2018)

I like a light nakiri to dice garlic and Watanabe-sized nakiris for chopping everyting else. If you are going for a light nakiri, TF and Yoshikane V2, both 165mm, are awesome. By the way, i don't think Watanabe 180mm nakiri is really a heavy-weight at 200g. Try a Toyama 210mm (275g) and there is a huge difference in maneuverability.


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## chinacats (Mar 28, 2018)

I'd suggest a Tanaka blue2 damascus from metalmaster...cheap and a very good cutter...I'd of kept mine if it was longer.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 28, 2018)

chinacats said:


> I'd suggest a Tanaka blue2 damascus from metalmaster...cheap and a very good cutter..


Could you post a link please?

Looking at the sight under Nakiris, there's no blue2 Tanaka, but there are under Tanaka special knives, but they're not cheap.


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## StonedEdge (Mar 28, 2018)

Google metal-master's eBay store some claim it is more up to date than his website. I have no clue if that's true tho.


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## Xenif (Mar 28, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> Could you post a link please?
> 
> Looking at the sight under Nakiris, there's no blue2 Tanaka, but there are under Tanaka special knives, but they're not cheap.


Never seen that particular combo, but MM did have a bunch of B2 Nakiri in Kurochi last month, watched as all of them got sold, only $60


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## chinacats (Mar 28, 2018)

Currently sold out but he restocks quite often. Again, a great knife, just a bit small for my tastes. I'm on a phone but would be worth checking eBay or just waiting on a restock.

http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/29

Only other downside is the crappy handle.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 28, 2018)

chinacats said:


> Currently sold out but he restocks quite often. Again, a great knife, just a bit small for my tastes. I'm on a phone but would be worth checking eBay or just waiting on a restock.
> 
> http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/29
> 
> Only other downside is the crappy handle.


Thank you. I couldn't see for looking :O

It's a bargain 

Although I guess there's the danger that it'll never be back in stock.


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## Hanmak17 (Mar 28, 2018)

Careful of analysis paralysis


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## Triggaaar (Mar 28, 2018)

Hanmak17 said:


> Careful of analysis paralysis


Don't worry, it's cool  Loads of great advice here. I would just order the 180 Wat, but it's quite expensive once tax in the UK hits, and since there's a fair chance I'd prefer a flatter belly or a thinner knife I think it's too much for now, so I've posted a wanted thread to see if I can find something used to try, which I can move on without losing much if it's not right.


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## Hanmak17 (Mar 29, 2018)

I hope you bought the Wat on BST???


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## MrHiggins (Mar 29, 2018)

Hanmak17 said:


> Careful of analysis paralysis


Yeah, just pull the friggin' Triggaar already and buy something.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 30, 2018)

Hanmak17 said:


> I hope you bought the Wat on BST???


Andreu kindly offered it to me via pm before posting the WTS. It even had a reasonably flat belly for a Wat. But it would my most expensive knife and it has a plastic hilt. My brain couldn't cope with that combination.


MrHiggins said:


> Yeah, just pull the friggin' Triggaar already and buy something.


I have already. I've bought a used Itinomonn. Won't get it for a few weeks, but it's significantly cheaper than the Wat, and will give me a good taste of a nakiri, and if I swap for another brand at some point I can re-sell without losing much. I'd already ordered it before Andreu contacted me, and I was going to get the Wat too and then sell one, but the plastic did it for me.

I can't understand why Watanabe's 165mm nakiri comes with a buffalo horn hilt as standard, and the 180 comes with plastic.


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## Marek07 (Mar 30, 2018)

MrHiggins said:


> Yeah, just pull the friggin' Triggaar already and buy something.


:rofl2:


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## StonedEdge (Mar 30, 2018)

MrHiggins said:


> Yeah, just pull the friggin' Triggaar already and buy something.


THIS!


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## Hanmak17 (Mar 30, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> I can't understand why Watanabe's 165mm nakiri comes with a buffalo horn hilt as standard, and the 180 comes with plastic.



Probably to save some money which I can't knock him for. How much time do you think it takes him to make those knives? How much time would you spend to make $280. These guys make almost nothing. 

Consumers seem to have forgotten handmade is time consuming and expensive, if you want cheap buy a mass produced tool. .


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## StonedEdge (Mar 30, 2018)

Also plastic is readily available whereas horn can be difficult to source all the time I bet


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## Triggaaar (Mar 30, 2018)

Hanmak17 said:


> Probably to save some money which I can't knock him for. How much time do you think it takes him to make those knives? How much time would you spend to make $280. These guys make almost nothing.
> 
> Consumers seem to have forgotten handmade is time consuming and expensive, if you want cheap buy a mass produced tool. .





StonedEdge said:


> Also plastic is readily available whereas horn can be difficult to source all the time I bet


But neither of these points address why it's standard on the 165mm.


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## StonedEdge (Mar 30, 2018)

Are you 100% sure its standard? His 150 petty from the Pro line claims to be horn ferrule standard but mine shipped with a plastic ferrule and I don't mind at all.


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## Chef Doom (Mar 30, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> But wait! There's more!


But first, a word from our sponsor....


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## Triggaaar (Mar 30, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> Are you 100% sure its standard?


Well the 165 costs 25,000 while the 180 costs 22,000.
And upgrading the 180 to an oval shaped burnt chestnut handle with horn hilt costs 6,000, but just 500 on the 165.
So I'm pretty confident.


> His 150 petty from the Pro line claims to be horn ferrule standard but mine shipped with a plastic ferrule and I don't mind at all.


I'd mind


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## laxdad (Mar 30, 2018)

Triggaaar said:


> Well the 165 costs 25,000 while the 180 costs 22,000.
> And upgrading the 180 to an oval shaped burnt chestnut handle with horn hilt costs 6,000, but just 500 on the 165.
> So I'm pretty confident.



There's a bit of mixing apples and oranges here. The 25,000 yen 165 nakiri comes with an octagonal enju handle and horn ferrule. The 500 yen is to upgrade from there to an oval chestnut handle and horn ferrule.

The 22,000 yen 180 nakiri comes with an oval chestnut handle and plastic ferrule. It's 6000 yen to upgrade to the horn ferrule.

I've ordered a couple of Watanabes, and I've always considered his handle options as more of a pick-list as he will make the knife with your handle of choice. The lowest cost option is oval chestnut with plastic ferrule. The highest cost is octagonal chestnut with horn.


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## Xenif (Mar 30, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> But first, a word from our sponsor....


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## parbaked (Mar 30, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> Are you 100% sure its standard? His 150 petty from the Pro line claims to be horn ferrule standard but mine shipped with a plastic ferrule and I don't mind at all.



The 150 Petty comes with what Shin calls a plastic hilt. It's clearly stated on his website.
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/petite.htm

The only knives that come with the enju and horn handle standard are the 165 Santoku and 165 Nakiri.
Shin does this as these are the most popular sizes in Japan and he wants to package them with his best handle. 

The other professional series knives all come with plastic ferrule with the option to upgrade.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 30, 2018)

laxdad said:


> There's a bit of mixing apples and oranges here. The 25,000 yen 165 nakiri comes with an octagonal enju handle and horn ferrule. The 500 yen is to upgrade from there to an oval chestnut handle and horn ferrule.
> 
> The 22,000 yen 180 nakiri comes with an oval chestnut handle and plastic ferrule.


That's exactly what I said, and StonedEdge asked if I was sure.



> I've ordered a couple of Watanabes, and I've always considered his handle options as more of a pick-list as he will make the knife with your handle of choice. The lowest cost option is oval chestnut with plastic ferrule. The highest cost is octagonal chestnut with horn.


For the 180, yes, but the plastic ferrule isn't even an option for the 165mm.


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## chinacats (Mar 30, 2018)

I know that makes no sense but the 165 has had a horn ferrule for as long as I can remember while the 180 has had plastic...makes no sense to me either...pretty sure he sells more 180's in the states.


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## StonedEdge (Mar 30, 2018)

As others have said, you can request a horn ferrule but it will be an additional charge. My mistake about it being standard...I could have sworn on his professional line pagwbit says horn standard...too lazy to go back and check tbh.. let us know how you like that Itinomonn! Having the gyuto, I'd be willing to bet the Itinomonn nakiri is well made


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## parbaked (Mar 30, 2018)

It's not that complicated.
Shin sells the Professional line with plastic ferrules standard and the option to upgrade to better handle.

He also offers his most popular (in Japan) models, the 165mm Nakiri and Santoku, with his best handle because this is the knife and handle combo that sells best in Japan.

The only complication is if one wants a 165mm Santoku or Nakiri with a cheaper handle, which I'm sure She would do for less $...


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## Marek07 (Mar 30, 2018)

Off-topic a bit but...
I have two knives with plastic ferrules - the Watanabe 180mm kurouchi nakiri and a Teruyasu Fujiwara 150mm nashiji petty. Both are hand crafted blades from respected smiths, using great steels with excellent HT. They come sharp OOTB and respond to stones really well when needed. The TF is quite cheap (with a meh Magnolia D-handle), the Wat is a bit more (with a very good burnt chestnut D-handle) but still quite reasonable in the scheme of things. When I pick them up to use, the ferrule material is not even a thought bubble - you cannot see or feel the plastic. And they both perform very well indeed. *No one* who has seen or used them has ever said, "Damn! Nice knife, pity about the plastic ferrule."


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## Triggaaar (Mar 30, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> As others have said, you can request a horn ferrule but it will be an additional charge.


Yeah I know, I just thought it was weird that plastic was std, but not on the 165.


> let us know how you like that Itinomonn! Having the gyuto, I'd be willing to bet the Itinomonn nakiri is well made


Will do. Yeah the gyuto is really popular. I might get to try the Wat at some point too, it's a journey 



Marek07 said:


> Off-topic a bit


This is the only topic now :biggrin:


> the Wat is a bit more (with a very good burnt chestnut D-handle) but still quite reasonable in the scheme of things. When I pick them up to use, the ferrule material is not even a thought bubble - you cannot see or feel the plastic. And they both perform very well indeed. *No one* who has seen or used them has ever said, "Damn! Nice knife, pity about the plastic ferrule."


I think if you'd have posted that a couple of days ago I'd have bought Andreu's Wat


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## chinacats (Mar 30, 2018)

It's a bit confusing how the professional listed by the link to the nakiris a few posts back is different from the professional gyutos which are still listed as being horn hilt (been the case for some time). Either way, my real problem with plastic is that the plastic often doesn't line up well with the wood so there's a drop off and I personally don't like the feel...been too long since I've used a Wat nakiri (Danny's) so my only real memory off the knife is more about how well it cut.

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/pro/pro.htm


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## Hanmak17 (Mar 31, 2018)

Marek07 said:


> Off-topic a bit but...
> I have two knives with plastic ferrules - the Watanabe 180mm kurouchi nakiri and a Teruyasu Fujiwara 150mm nashiji petty. Both are hand crafted blades from respected smiths, using great steels with excellent HT. They come sharp OOTB and respond to stones really well when needed. The TF is quite cheap (with a meh Magnolia D-handle), the Wat is a bit more (with a very good burnt chestnut D-handle) but still quite reasonable in the scheme of things. When I pick them up to use, the ferrule material is not even a thought bubble - you cannot see or feel the plastic. And they both perform very well indeed. *No one* who has seen or used them has ever said, "Damn! Nice knife, pity about the plastic ferrule."



THIS!


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