# Changing beliefs about knives



## dafox (Sep 19, 2020)

What are some of the beliefs that you originally held about knives that you have since changed?


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## amithrain (Sep 19, 2020)

Basically everything Ryky told me


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## DitmasPork (Sep 19, 2020)

dafox said:


> What are some of the beliefs that you originally held about knives that you have since changed?


I used to think that TF Denkas were over priced, problematic, wonky looking knives. Now, I'm a devoted denka lover.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Sep 19, 2020)

How much I would spend on knives. I was pretty young when I started, 43 now.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 19, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> How much I would spend on knives. I was pretty young when I started, 43 now.


Yes! But, for me, more specifically, how much I would feel comfortable spending on a knife. I used to think $200 was an expensive knife.


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## lemeneid (Sep 19, 2020)

Used to prefer lasers, then I picked up a Toyama and everything changed.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 19, 2020)

Gyutos are all-purpose knives that excel at everything and are essential in every toolkit


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## MarcelNL (Sep 19, 2020)

I thought my Global G2 was the end game....and that it was as sharp as things get


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## ian (Sep 19, 2020)

“People that spend hours fondling and thinking about knives are troubled and potentially dangerous.“

“Shuns look cool.”


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## ian (Sep 19, 2020)

Also, “super flat profiles are the best”.


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## tchan001 (Sep 19, 2020)

"Ginsu knives are amazing."


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## Midsummer (Sep 19, 2020)

That I could tell the difference between white steels and blue steels in use.


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## ian (Sep 19, 2020)

Midsummer said:


> That I could tell the difference between white steels and blue steels in use.



Like, in use cutting? Or while sharpening?


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## Midsummer (Sep 19, 2020)

Cutting mostly. But I certainly have some highly varied experiences in their sharpening as well. I have AS that sharpens easily(Denka) and white 1 that’s a bear (Carter). There are many other examples, but as been said so many times before; it is the treatment of the steel by the “smith” that is so critical especially in sharpening.


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## ian (Sep 19, 2020)

Yea, true that.


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## M1k3 (Sep 19, 2020)

Shapton Pro 120 isn't a friendly stone.


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## JDC (Sep 19, 2020)

Shapton Pro 220 has good feedback.

Shapton Pro 220 dishes significantly in thinning.


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## JDC (Sep 19, 2020)

white 2s are too soft and delicate.

Wakui’s white 2 heat treat is phenomenal.


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## tincent (Sep 19, 2020)

This feels like the beginnings of Unpopular Opinions 2.

OOTB edge is peak sharpness.


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 19, 2020)

’I don’t like knives that are too blade heavy and forward balanced’
’Whetstone sharpening is impossible’
’I will never have to thin my knives’
’Knives arrive from the Smith/maker/factory in the best possible condition in terms of finish and performance’


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## daveb (Sep 19, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> I used to think that TF Denkas were over priced, problematic, wonky looking knives. Now, I'm a devoted denka lover.



You can be both


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## bbrooks008 (Sep 19, 2020)

Steel is the most important aspect


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## pgugger (Sep 19, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> I thought my Global G2 was the end game....and that it was as sharp as things get



Same here but it was a Masamoto VG for me. More like gateway drugs it turns out. Probably a pretty common story on here.


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## HSC /// Knives (Sep 19, 2020)

Midsummer said:


> Cutting mostly. But I certainly have some highly varied experiences in their sharpening as well. I have AS that sharpens easily(Denka) and white 1 that’s a bear (Carter). There are many other examples, but as been said so many times before; it is the treatment of the steel by the “smith” that is so critical especially in sharpening.


Just curious, are you saying that the white 1 Carter is difficult to sharpen?


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## juice (Sep 19, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> Just curious, are you saying that the white 1 Carter is difficult to sharpen?


That's how I read it, yeah.


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## Ruso (Sep 19, 2020)

That a sharp edge is the sole most important aspect to cut well.


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## tchan001 (Sep 19, 2020)

Bots buy up all the rare knives from famous Western knife makers.


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## panda (Sep 19, 2020)

spending over 200 on a knife is crazy
carbon is dumb

to think that I used to believe that..


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## aszma (Sep 19, 2020)

When I first started getting into knives i thought work horses and lasers meant totally different things to what they actually meant. I bought only knives considered work horses bc i thought it would be better suited for actual kitchen work.


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## Kippington (Sep 19, 2020)

I was told as an apprentice that a full bolster and rivets are a sign of a quality knife
At one stage I believed that a super polished edge that could cut a hanging hair is the ultimate goal for a kitchen knife
I used to think that ferrules served no functional purpose, and were only there for aesthetics
Through initial observations, I used to think travelling knife-sharpeners (the ones that go kitchen-to-kitchen) were highly trained in an advanced skill that all chefs relied on
I thought that high quality steel guaranteed a high quality knife


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## zizirex (Sep 20, 2020)

Tojiro DP is the best bang for the buck knife series, then there comes Wakui.

Mazaki is really good, apparently, it is a hit and miss.

Flipping things only happen in the sneaker world.


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 20, 2020)

panda said:


> spending over 200 on a knife is crazy
> carbon is dumb
> 
> to think that I used to believe that..


Carbon is dumb


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## juice (Sep 20, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> Carbon is dumb


Unless you apply significant heat and pressure, then it gets all bright (and sparkly)...


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 20, 2020)

juice said:


> Unless you apply significant heat and pressure, then it gets all bright (and sparkly)...


Then it becomes dumber


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## McMan (Sep 20, 2020)

juice said:


> Unless you apply significant heat and pressure, then it gets all bright (and sparkly)...


... or alive.


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## daveb (Sep 20, 2020)

Or a diamond.

Carbon knives are dumb.


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## M1k3 (Sep 20, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> Then it becomes dumber


Except when that converted carbon is put on metal plate and then used to flatten stones.


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## McMan (Sep 20, 2020)

McMan said:


> ... or alive.


 Edit: Damn, Karl beat me to it!


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 20, 2020)

McMan said:


> Edit: Damn, Karl beat me to it!


I’m trigger happy, almost as fast as Murray Kato.


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## Jville (Sep 20, 2020)

In the very beginning, I didnt want to sharpen my new Mercer chef knive cause i might mess it up.

Also, japanese knives can't really be that much better than my really nice wusthoff santoku. I mean how much better can they really be??


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## Jville (Sep 20, 2020)

I used to hope Mazaki knives would just become more and more like Katos, until he basically just made Katos, so i could get them at a decent price.


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## McMan (Sep 20, 2020)

Changing beliefs:
2006--a Deba would be a great all-arounder because it was heavy
2007--I could accentuate the lamination line by raising and lowering my sharpening angle (hey--it kinda makes sense if you think about it...)
2008--200 bucks for a Carter was too much
2009--200 bucks for a shig is too much
2010-2011 (but sometimes still)--a 210mm is the ideal length for a gyuto
2012--Masakage Mizu Yuki would solve everything because it was ss-clad but carbon and wa-handle
2013-2015--If it's not white or blue, then it's too fancy for me
2016--no need to try a Western maker
2017--no need to try a honyaki
2018--I should finally join the forum I've been lurking on (and KF before it) for a decade...
2019--that significant flat spot and low tip solves everything
2020--that KKF is really just ~50 people and most of the other accounts belong to one person as part of a sociological experiment. Oh, well, 2020 isn't over yet...


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 20, 2020)

Kippington said:


> I was told as an apprentice that a full bolster and rivets are a sign of a quality knife




I like this  in particular the rivets part.
’When you’re out doing the occasional knife shopping, make sure to inspect the knife! Does it have rivets? Very important! If it does, go ahead inspecting the bolster! Is it full? If yes, just buy and enjoy!’


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## M1k3 (Sep 20, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> I’m trigger happy, almost as fast as Murray Kato.


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 20, 2020)

M1k3 said:


>


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## M1k3 (Sep 20, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> I like this  in particular the rivets part.
> ’When you’re out doing the occasional knife shopping, make sure to inspect the knife! Does it have rivets? Very important! If it does, go ahead inspecting the bolster! Is it full? If yes, just buy and enjoy!’


Are 2 or 3 rivets preferred? Should the bolster be slightly or extremely past the edge?


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 20, 2020)

M1k3 said:


>


Sound on!


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 20, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Are 2 or 3 rivets preferred? Should the bolster be slightly or extremely past the edge?


You’re overthinking it!


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## M1k3 (Sep 20, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> Sound on!



There's not a single rivet! And where's the bolster? MmmmMmmmM?¿?¿


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 20, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> There's not a single rivet! And where's the bolster? MmmmMmmmM?¿?¿


Yeah, based on that I’m not allowed to recommend that knife. Even though it’s made by a trigger happy Texan Swede.


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## ModRQC (Sep 20, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> Sound on!




Is that your new putter?


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## juice (Sep 20, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> You’re overthinking it!


LOL, you clearly forgot who you were talking to!


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## GorillaGrunt (Sep 20, 2020)

I once believed that I had touched a knife made by someone other than Naoki Mazaki, turned out I was wrong. Thought this guy that i watched firsthand making a knife in Milwaukee was a local but then his rubber Mission Impossible style mask slipped off and it was Mazaki all along. Also my old Sheffield knife but then I found this picture of workers in the Latham and Owen factory c. 1925 ... yep, Mazaki.

more seriously - the usual evolution of knife misconceptions and assumptions and discoveries, about steel, brands, smiths, etc. Lately I’m finding myself picking up and using more single bevels. I assumed that since I didn’t do much work with fish, and no sushi or sashimi, I’d be best off with an usuba. Turns out I barely ever used it, used the single bevel petty on occasion but more to make myself use a single bevel rather than because it was the best tool for the job, but once I started butchering with them I’m using several yanagi and a mioroshi deba almost daily on beef and pork As well as breaking down salmon.


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## LucasFur (Sep 20, 2020)

“America’s test kitchen knife review is all that I need for a knife”— it ain’t. 

“I should listen to people’s suggestions and recommendations on forums ” - lots of people like to recommend knives AND *barely ... Barellyy* using theirs, AND have *zero* cutting skills, AND *zero* sharpening skills—i don’t listen to people with out a vid somewhere, or have significant experience working on high end blades. Most people are glorified America’s test kitchen testers. I’m so sick of the lack of blade proficiency among knife enthusiasts. It’s like reviewing Sports cars by only going on the highway, get your game up. As a Side note ... I have vids of me shaving my face with gyuto’s on YouTube. Not that it matters, but it’s to show my comfort with knives. And to show my own sharping ability Ever so slightly. I also did one with an R2 blade showing how sharp “stainless” can get, because ppl talked about how only carbon can get Super sharp at one point


..... who the hell are you recommending me a Kato for Honyaki for 1k+ and yours doesn’t even have a patina, and you only cut some cucumbers....poorly.

“I need a gyuto, paring knife, bread knife” - nope, I peel kiwi, shred carrots, pit apples, peel potatoes, cut crusty bread ... you name it .... with a 240mm Gyuto and I do it efficiently ... it’s called developing skill. Only thing that is faster is a peeler. — my kitchen supply list is 1. A Gyuto and 2. a peeler (MAYBEEE a bread knife) *done* 

_“carter said his his vid blue < white steel” _— after owning several of both I knew even he was a chump. Ate his words years later.

“Honing rod / steeling hard steels is *bad* ... soft steels only” 
A) I do what I want ... and know what I’m doing. It’s a piece of steel that I want an edge on, not the holy bible that I’m mutilating. -might put up a vid of me steeling a blue 1 honyaki Gyuto or a ZDP blade ... watch ppl flip out lol. 
B) I saw sushi chefs in japan take their yanagibas to the back of a tea cup for an edge, your gunna say that’s wrong to? They live food preparation ... your a knife enthusiast/ retailer/ forum member.


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## ModRQC (Sep 20, 2020)

I'm sorry for all the truth in your words but... at this point this is no changing belief, it's plain shooting down pretty much anyone that isn't you or your conception of an authority figure in your life. All valid TBH but why the anger? You should be Zen by now.


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## ModRQC (Sep 20, 2020)

I discovered for myself that a knife doesn't cut. Not any one of them. So far at least. Perhaps a 2000$ one will but I doubt it.

Seriously I've put cameras in my kitchen for weeks. These things just stay put and don't make a move. Certainly they don't cut anything. They're lazy overspent suckers.

No... I need to take them and cut with them. I need to maintain them. I need to get them fit and sharp. I need to understand their needs, but also to put my foot to the ground and reiterate the rules of the house. I don't say if they would take the stuff out, cut it and throw in a good Bolognese, but as far as they don't, by my rules stand my house, my knives, my skills and any aspect of my life I have control upon.

If anyone is in doubt that I or a whole lot of others around here actually use these things, well they can lick the patina out of my double bevels.

I do hope, and am sad having to specify, that y'all see the humor of this post and keep forward with saying interesting bits rather than turning this thread into yet another vendetta against things that but only exist in your deepest dissatisfactions with life.

Does someone actually understand that this is no tribune to ***** about one another when we all love the same things, and cannot share this kind of passion with anyone else but another aficionado, and whatever his level so far and his views he's entitled to them. If even knives divide people that love knives, I sure don't see any point to this forum.


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## soigne_west (Sep 20, 2020)




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## juice (Sep 20, 2020)

Don't ask me. I read it twice and am no closer to working it out.


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## lemeneid (Sep 20, 2020)

Looks like that had gone through 7 languages on google translate before coming out in English.


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## Ruso (Sep 20, 2020)

McMan said:


> 2020--that KKF is really just ~50 people and most of the other accounts belong to one person as part of a sociological experiment. Oh, well, 2020 isn't over yet...



Wait a moment.. Are you telling me that this is not the case?


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 20, 2020)

McMan said:


> 2009--200 bucks for a shig is too much


Shig was 200 in 2009???


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## XooMG (Sep 20, 2020)

I changed my mind about how much I should care about subtle performance differences and optimization.

I also decided I'm usually best served by cheap modified knives, rather than higher end pieces or customs.


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## tchan001 (Sep 20, 2020)

I once thought JML would just keep asking questions on KKF and never buy a knife.


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## McMan (Sep 20, 2020)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Shig was 200 in 2009???


Even in 2016 KU was $235.


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## Barmoley (Sep 20, 2020)

Ruso said:


> Wait a moment.. Are you telling me that this is not the case?


Right. It's more like 25 different people.


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## Kippington (Sep 20, 2020)

KKF is really just one dude buying his own Kato from himself over and over, at ever increasing prices...


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## Panamapeet (Sep 20, 2020)

Kippington said:


> KKF is really just one dude buying his own Kato from himself over and over, at ever increasing prices...


All aboard the hype train!


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## daveb (Sep 20, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Are 2 or 3 rivets preferred? Should the bolster be slightly or extremely past the edge?



Re: Rivets. Am I the only one that knows that properly done rivets are the correct diameter for a julienne cut? And that the spacing between 2 of the 3 rivets is the proper length for that julienne? I read it on the internet.....


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## M1k3 (Sep 20, 2020)

daveb said:


> Re: Rivets. Am I the only one that knows that properly done rivets are the correct diameter for a julienne cut? And that the spacing between 2 of the 3 rivets is the proper length for that julienne? I read it on the internet.....


So 3 rivets is preferred?
How about bolster size and relation to cutting edge?


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## juice (Sep 20, 2020)

McMan said:


> 2020--that KKF is really just ~50 people and most of the other accounts belong to one person as part of a sociological experiment.





Ruso said:


> Wait a moment.. Are you telling me that this is not the case?


I just wanna know which part I belong in...


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## Southpaw (Sep 20, 2020)

Hey so Kipp said he thought the ferrule was pointless back in the day, what exactly does it do?


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## Southpaw (Sep 20, 2020)

Oh I have another question, for those of you who say the treat of the steel is what matters, while I completely agree (I just am buying different Hitachi carbons to ensure variety, otherwise I’d have like all white 2) has anyone tried two different knives by the same maker but in different steels?

I’ll tell you one thing I learned from this forum:
Don’t condemn White 2 because your only white 2 Gyuto is a Masamoto KS... although I have yet to taste the fruit of this revelation.


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## Xenif (Sep 20, 2020)

Single bevel knives are for professional sushi chefs only, and they should only be used to cut fish
People that own more than 5 knives and 3 stones are totally out of their minds
Cutting a tomato sideways is cool
Cutting a grape sideways is cool
I need a Honesuki
Polishing knives is so stupid because of patina
Everyone on the knife forum has anime like knife skills


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## Southpaw (Sep 20, 2020)

Oh I guess my two are:
1. Yaxell makes quality products
2. Masamoto KS is the pinnacle of quality gyutos


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## ian (Sep 20, 2020)

Xenif said:


> Single bevel knives are for professional sushi chefs only, and they should only be used to cut fish
> People that own more than 5 knives and 3 stones are totally out of their minds
> Cutting a tomato sideways is cool
> Cutting a grape sideways is cool
> ...




Did Sisyphus have to change his day job because of the pandemic too? Poor little guy.


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## Barmoley (Sep 20, 2020)

Southpaw said:


> 2) has anyone tried two different knives by the same maker but in different steels?



Better yet, similar knives from the same maker in different steels. The answer is yes, steel makes a difference. How much of difference depends on the steels and how close to the limit you are pushing geometry.


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## M1k3 (Sep 20, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Better yet, similar knives from the same maker in different steels. The answer is yes, steel makes a difference. How much of difference depends on the steels and how close to the limit you are pushing geometry.


I definitely notice a difference between @HSC /// Knives 52100 and Zwear. But they are totally different steels compositionally.


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## T85 (Sep 21, 2020)

Midsummer said:


> Cutting mostly. But I certainly have some highly varied experiences in their sharpening as well. I have AS that sharpens easily(Denka) and white 1 that’s a bear (Carter). There are many other examples, but as been said so many times before; it is the treatment of the steel by the “smith” that is so critical especially in sharpening.


I have 2 Carters and they are by far the easiest to sharpen, so I’m surprise you say that.


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## Kippington (Sep 21, 2020)

Southpaw said:


> Hey so Kipp said he thought the ferrule was pointless back in the day, what exactly does it do?


When the tang of a knife is forced into the handle like a wedge, the ferrule stops the wood from splitting and cracking apart during use.
Ferrules should be made from something with high tensile strength. Brass and horn are popular.

The following pictures are about wood turning tools, but they apply to knives nonetheless.


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## tincent (Sep 21, 2020)

I love Kipp's explanations. Detailed, but not shrouded in detail. I've shared Kipp's summary of asymmetric grinds with several people. Usually they just tell me to pull up to the next window for my order.


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## Twigg (Sep 21, 2020)

Use to think that the type of steel was all that mattered (think Solingen, Swedish, 420c) 
Use to think that super steel (CPM 3v, CPM s35vn, M4, etc) made the simpler carbon steels irrelevant
Use to think that Bark River's fantastic heat treat of A2 made up for overly thick designs

Came back to carbon mostly and would like to see powdered versions of some of the simpler older varieties of carbon, just for the additional uniformness in structure.


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## Twigg (Sep 21, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> I discovered for myself that a knife doesn't cut. Not any one of them. So far at least. Perhaps a 2000$ one will but I doubt it.
> 
> Seriously I've put cameras in my kitchen for weeks. These things just stay put and don't make a move. Certainly they don't cut anything. They're lazy overspent suckers.
> 
> ...


I agree, Venus truly is a Russian planet,


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## ModRQC (Sep 21, 2020)

Twigg said:


> I agree, Venus truly is a Russian planet,



Yeah exactly, and Mars made in chocolate...


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## GorillaGrunt (Sep 21, 2020)

The earth is still round though. The Moon however is flat as a pancake, saw it with my own eyes when I helped those guys fake the landing


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## ModRQC (Sep 21, 2020)

But... but... pancakes are not flat, crepes are... so it was a false moon... which in turn means it was a real landing.


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## GorillaGrunt (Sep 22, 2020)

Damn, we’ve been rumbled! Get Haldeman, call John Dean, and amnesticize everyone.


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## juice (Sep 22, 2020)

Geez, someone's showing their age...


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## M1k3 (Sep 22, 2020)

juice said:


> Geez, someone's showing their age...


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## milas555 (Sep 22, 2020)

Ad rem...
When I bought my first Japanese knife for $ 250, I thought it was the most expensive, then $ 300, $ 400 at the end, $ 500 - it was supposed to be the last, but it wasn't ...... 1000+ 
Well, the worst thing is that the same horror movie is with stones 
Then it turned out that not only Japanese knives are cool ...


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## Oshidashi (Oct 12, 2020)

Guys, I am new to this forum, even relatively new to Japanese knives, and I tell ya' my old misconceptions (from, say, a month or two ago) are changing fast. Going back to those very recent (innocent) days:

1) I thought I was a fanatic for spending $80 to $185 on each of my 6 or 10 most decent knives and for similar expenditures on sharpening stones and accessories. My wife frowns at my every acquisition and is still determined to convince me and everyone we know that I have a malady. Now I know that my minor knife obsession really is minor, and rather it is everyone else on KKF who are in need of rehab.

2) I thought all professional restaurant cooks and chefs (besides sushi chefs) use Victorinox or Mercer blades, or else use cheap or rented house knives that a service collects and resharpens for them every week. (When I mentioned to my wife that some restaurant professionals collected and routinely used $300+ knives at work she gave me that look that said "it's just not so, stupid.")

3) I thought well-to-do home cooks pretty much stuck to Shun and Global and Wustof (or Cutco, god forbid) and that their sharpening routine involved once a year dragging the blades through a Chef's Choice electric sharpener. It now seems that many of them, on the other hand, have pretty esoteric high end arsenals and stones.

4) I thought stainless steel knives were best since they did not rust. Now I know the ones that do rust are generally more expensive and have better edges and that their steel types are named after wrapping paper.

Now I realize I am small potatoes, that I am a mere budding enthusiast that knows nothing of the less commercial, or custom, or niche knife makers, or about asymmetrical microbeveling and thinning. I now know people actually buy $4000 kitchen knives, and that there are people who, just for fun I guess, own and have at home a dozen or more high-end wa-nakiris.

I have a lot to learn, and I hope not to go broke during the process.


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## tchan001 (Oct 12, 2020)

The record spending for a kitchen knife is around USD250k. Original knives made by Bob Kramer routinely sell for 5-digit figures. There are quite a few members here who have collections of dozens of highend kitchen knives which start at several hundreds of dollars each. How do you view the world of knives now?

I was taught as a kid to avoid sharp knives as I could easily get cut. Now the aim is to keep good knives which stay sharper longer.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 12, 2020)

Oshidashi said:


> Guys, I am new to this forum, even relatively new to Japanese knives, and I tell ya' my old misconceptions (from, say, a month or two ago) are changing fast. Going back to those very recent (innocent) days:
> 
> 1) I thought I was a fanatic for spending $80 to $185 on each of my 6 or 10 most decent knives and for similar expenditures on sharpening stones and accessories. My wife frowns at my every acquisition and is still determined to convince me and everyone we know that I have a malady. Now I know that my minor knife obsession really is minor, and rather it is everyone else on KKF who are in need of rehab.
> 
> ...




Resistance is futile


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Oct 12, 2020)

Oshidashi said:


> I now know people actually buy $4000 kitchen knives, and that there are people who, just for fun I guess, own and have at home a dozen or more high-end wa-nakiris.



* *

Introduce me please?


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## Oshidashi (Oct 12, 2020)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Introduce me please?



Haha. Check out Iggy's review of 8 nakiris in Nov 2019


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Oct 12, 2020)

Oshidashi said:


> Haha. Check out Iggy's review of 8 nakiris in Nov 2019



Ah, I have read that many times. A classic collection of KU nakiris for sure.


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## milas555 (Oct 12, 2020)

I have a lot to learn, and I hope not to go broke during the process.
[/QUOTE]

"Hope dies last"


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## M1k3 (Oct 12, 2020)

Oshidashi said:


> Guys, I am new to this forum, even relatively new to Japanese knives, and I tell ya' my old misconceptions (from, say, a month or two ago) are changing fast. Going back to those very recent (innocent) days:
> 
> 1) I thought I was a fanatic for spending $80 to $185 on each of my 6 or 10 most decent knives and for similar expenditures on sharpening stones and accessories. My wife frowns at my every acquisition and is still determined to convince me and everyone we know that I have a malady. Now I know that my minor knife obsession really is minor, and rather it is everyone else on KKF who are in need of rehab.
> 
> ...



1) Mine frowned also. The first one at $140 was REALLY expensive to her. And the $50 combo stone was also. Now it's just a matter of pacing and not going to extreme.

2) Most professionals use crap. Cheap dull whatever Sysco/U.S. Foods type stuff the place will buy. Then the smaller group of people that own their own of varying quality but never above the quality of Kiwi, Victorinox and other budget lines. Then there's smaller group that is on here.

3) 100% correct. Sorry Cuisinart and Calphalon.

4) Stainless is the best! It's the newest trend! Message me on how to properly dispose of those garbage non-stainless knives.


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## alterwisser (Oct 12, 2020)

Some of mine ....

1) Japanese knives are the best. Can’t be beaten, no way Jose!

2) I’ll never spend more than $200 on a knife

3) There’s a “best steel” out there

4) Cleavers are for whacking chicken bones

5) Cleavers are one dimensional

6) 50mm at the Heel is sufficient

7) I need a Suji

8) the Shop that shall not be named is the holy grail of kitchen knife sourcing

9) I only need 3 knives

10) should I really meet this young Swedish maker and buy a knife if his? I’m sure he’s not gonna amount to anything ...


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## tchan001 (Oct 12, 2020)

Definitely more than just one young Swedish maker around.


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## alterwisser (Oct 12, 2020)

tchan001 said:


> Definitely more than just one young Swedish maker around.



talking about the OG.... back when he used to make his tips thinner than paper thin...


----------



## Qapla' (Oct 12, 2020)

alterwisser said:


> 4) Cleavers are for whacking chicken bones


By "cleavers" do you mean actual cleavers, or do you mean Chinese-style chef's knives?


----------



## alterwisser (Oct 12, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> By "cleavers" do you mean actual cleavers, or do you mean Chinese-style chef's knives?



ha, the point I was making: when I started out with knives I didn’t even know there was a Difference, meaning: I had no clue that Chinese are using Cleavers as all round chef knives. I only knew meat cleavers and thought that any cleaver is a meat cleaver ...


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## lechef (Oct 12, 2020)

Kippington said:


> When the tang of a knife is forced into the handle like a wedge, the ferrule stops the wood from splitting and cracking apart during use.
> Ferrules should be made from something with high tensile strength. Brass and horn are popular.
> 
> The following pictures are about wood turning tools, but they apply to knives nonetheless.



May I ask where you got that knife guard


----------



## lechef (Oct 12, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> I thought my Global G2 was the end game....and that it was as sharp as things get



Same here. Bought the whole Masahiro line(higher end version MAC) and thought I was Set for life.
Then somehow stumbled upon this Forum trying to figure out how to sharpen. Got introduced to a member that lived in my town. He let me borrow a knife and also try his Kato WH back in 2012 when you could actually buy them for a crazy deal on JNS. Was life changing to say the least.


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## Kippington (Oct 12, 2020)

lechef said:


> May I ask where you got that knife guard


It's a photo I stole off @DitmasPork


----------



## Eloh (Oct 12, 2020)

well, at one point i thought that using a polishing steel was blasphemous, now i understand that it actually can be used very efficiently and sustainable ....

I also thought San Mai blades are the best and nowadays the majority of my knives are monosteel/honyaki


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## Barashka (Oct 12, 2020)

1) It's just knives, how hard can it be to pick one
2) I'll never spend more than $250 on a knife
3) I only need 2 good knives


----------



## Chang (Oct 12, 2020)

Carl Kotte said:


> Sound on!




i love all of his videos, hes such a funny guy


----------



## Carl Kotte (Oct 12, 2020)

Chang said:


> i love all of his videos, hes such a funny guy


Yeah he seems great! A wild Swedish cowboy


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## Chang (Oct 12, 2020)

"$75 for a knife? ridiculous! you have knives that cost more than $100?! you're nuts!"

"AS is the best steel"

"lasers make the best line knives"

"Shibata-san is such a god within the knife community"

"I would have to say Kurosaki is definitely my favorite maker"

"a 180mm bunka is all I need, I'm gonna start collecting bunkas!"


----------



## BillHanna (Oct 12, 2020)

Chang said:


> "a 180mm bunka nakiri is all I need, I'm gonna start collecting bunkas nakiri!"


Just @ me next time, fam.


----------



## Ruso (Oct 12, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Resistance is futile
> View attachment 98288


Did you mean, resistance is flutile?


----------



## DrEriksson (Oct 12, 2020)

“This combo stone seems to be a good deal.”

Starting with Victorinox and jumping to Japanese knives, I thought I would never appreciate a Global knife. Now I really Like my G2 and GS11. They are my beater knives, they are easy to clean when messy, and they have a secure place in my collection.


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## JimMaple98 (Oct 13, 2020)

KS is the best knife out there
woah that pull through sharpener is awesome!
i only Need one of each type of knife
its fine to cut on the marble bench top
carbon steel is scary
DaoVua are great bang for buck


....or how about this one when we where all so young and naive?
“Damascus is the ultimate steel, only master craftsmen can make Damascus knives and they cut so much better, people used to worship Damascus. A Damascus 300 mm chef knife would be the ultimate knife. Damascus is so cool, Damascus......”


----------



## DrEriksson (Oct 13, 2020)

JimMaple98 said:


> “Damascus is the ultimate steel, only master craftsmen can make Damascus knives and they cut so much better, people used to worship Damascus. A Damascus 300 mm chef knife would be the ultimate knife. Damascus is so cool, Damascus......”



This one rings true. Now damascus seems to be a hassle, as it would probably discourage me from messing with the blade.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 13, 2020)

Personally, damascus was not even on my mind when started this hobby, now its one my my primary desires...but only handmade damascus.


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## JimMaple98 (Oct 13, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Personally, damascus was not even on my mind when started this hobby, now its one my my primary desires...but only handmade damascus.


It does look good when done right I will admit, but it has got to the point for me it makes some Knives look cheaper, simply due to the market being flooded with cheap crap dammy. only Reason I still have my damascus knife is because my partner bought it for me, not heartless enough to sell it


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Oct 13, 2020)

"a 180mm bunka nakiri is all I need, I'm gonna start collecting bunkas nakiri!"

@BillHanna 
Where is the lie though  ?


----------



## LUWerner (Oct 13, 2020)

You know, I was thinking about this issue, and as silly as it might sound to you guys, the thing that most flabbergasted me was the humble *bread knife*. Until the beginning of the pandemic, a dirt cheap supermarket-type bread knife was all I needed. Like everyone else, I started to cook more because of the pandemic, and then I got a _good_ bread knife... Nothing fancy or even Japanese, but a good stamped-forged one.

Boy, was I surprised at how much I suffered before in vain! To the point I wasn't even very found of natural fermentation breads because they had those _hard and difficult to cut crusts_ . Now I don't even ask the baker to pre-slice my loafs, since I can do a better job at home. And artisanal bread? It's basically all we eat now in terms of bread, from ciabatta do whole grain to campaigne bread.

I've learned many new truths in all the decades that I've been around blades, but honestly, I was amazed at what a simple bread knife can represent.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 13, 2020)

JimMaple98 said:


> It does look good when done right I will admit, but it has got to the point for me it makes some Knives look cheaper, simply due to the market being flooded with cheap crap dammy. only Reason I still have my damascus knife is because my partner bought it for me, not heartless enough to sell it


True, but I only get the best


----------



## martinezz (Oct 13, 2020)

I do not need more than one combo whetstone.
Gyuto is too big for everyday use.


----------



## lucabrasi (Oct 13, 2020)

Used to think cutting on anything outside of end grain maple was reasonably considered abuse. Super super dumb.


----------



## valdim (Oct 13, 2020)

*I thought KKF is a boring place where kitchen chefs exchange recipies (and their pics) in order to show off with their new knives. Wrong. It is great place with some strange ppl (me among them) and lots of nice ppl. 
*I never thought (in the begining) I would place WTB thread about a Xerxes...I do think about such thread now...
*I did not know that a good basic (or average) knife can make such a difference when I cook. Amazing! To cook with a sharp knife you have carefully selected among MANY offers, a knife you read about for months, before you hit the "order" button - it is a real pleasure.*@[email protected]
* @lemeneid, @Carl Kotte, @Corradobrit1, @RDalman &co could be that helpful team to give me a piece of advise at a moment when I met a TF Maboroshi. Thank you guys, you are part of a nice memory.
*there r more and more


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## thebradleycrew (Oct 13, 2020)

I used to think that the knife itself was more important than the sharpening (more a collector view). Now I think the sharpening is probably more important than the knife, assuming you are starting with a decent knife (more a user view).


----------



## danemonji (Oct 13, 2020)

I used to think I needed more knives. Have totally changed my opinion on knives after having bought the Kramer Zwilling 10 inch and 8 inch carbons (i bought both for 450$) two months ago. After having them thinned, they are the only knives i've used in my kitchen since.
I don't feel the need to grab any of my japanese or high end knives anymore.
Also 52100 at 61-62hrc has become my favorite steel. In two months of daily use without a single touch up or strop, both knives are still very sharp and I am no longer obsessed with sharpening. Each day i test their sharpness and they still shave hair.
I also like the fact that 52100 is not very reactive, taking a gunmetal patina and without any reactivity to acids anymore.
Best thing is in the past months I did not feel the urge to buy any other knives( other than a custom bark river bushcrafter in cpm 3v for camping ). Every time I see a knife I compare its value(steel /build /price) to the two Kramers and so far none made it pass this filter.
You could say I have made it out of the rabbit hole.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 13, 2020)

danemonji said:


> I used to think I needed more knives. Have totally changed my opinion on knives after having bought the Kramer Zwilling 10 inch and 8 inch carbons (i bought both for 450$) two months ago. After having them thinned, they are the only knives i've used in my kitchen since.
> I don't feel the need to grab any of my japanese or high end knives anymore.
> Also 52100 at 61-62hrc has become my favorite steel. In two months of daily use without a single touch up or strop, both knives are still very sharp and I am no longer obsessed with sharpening. Each day i test their sharpness and they still shave hair.
> I also like the fact that 52100 is not very reactive, taking a gunmetal patina and without any reactivity to acids anymore.
> ...


I like the fact you love 52100, and you have reached the point where your happy with what you have. I wish I could be so lucky.


----------



## M1k3 (Oct 13, 2020)

danemonji said:


> I used to think I needed more knives. Have totally changed my opinion on knives after having bought the Kramer Zwilling 10 inch and 8 inch carbons (i bought both for 450$) two months ago. After having them thinned, they are the only knives i've used in my kitchen since.
> I don't feel the need to grab any of my japanese or high end knives anymore.
> Also 52100 at 61-62hrc has become my favorite steel. In two months of daily use without a single touch up or strop, both knives are still very sharp and I am no longer obsessed with sharpening. Each day i test their sharpness and they still shave hair.
> I also like the fact that 52100 is not very reactive, taking a gunmetal patina and without any reactivity to acids anymore.
> ...


I'm a big fan of 52100 now also.


----------



## MowgFace (Oct 14, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I'm a big fan of 52100 now also.



+2. I LOVE my Shi.Han


----------



## Jville (Oct 15, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I'm a big fan of 52100 now also.


Me too. I got a custom on the way in that steel.


----------



## panda (Oct 15, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I'm a big fan of 52100 now also.


im still not a fan of the steel itself, im only a fan of shihan's treatment of it. that sounds cliche as hell but its the honest truth. i havent really liked it in other knives. marko's was good but wasnt anything sexy.


----------



## labor of love (Oct 15, 2020)

dafox said:


> What are some of the beliefs that you originally held about knives that you have since changed?


I thought carbon were the best blades but no...good stainless or atleast stainless clad is where happiness truly dwells.


----------



## labor of love (Oct 15, 2020)

labor of love said:


> I thought carbon were the best blades but no...good stainless or atleast stainless clad is where happiness truly dwells.


Folks, did I stutter? Bring those Honyakis to the recycling plant. Maybe in the next life they’ll wear protective lamination.


----------



## curlycues (Mar 7, 2021)

LUWerner said:


> You know, I was thinking about this issue, and as silly as it might sound to you guys, the thing that most flabbergasted me was the humble *bread knife*. Until the beginning of the pandemic, a dirt cheap supermarket-type bread knife was all I needed. Like everyone else, I started to cook more because of the pandemic, and then I got a _good_ bread knife... Nothing fancy or even Japanese, but a good stamped-forged one.
> 
> Boy, was I surprised at how much I suffered before in vain! To the point I wasn't even very found of natural fermentation breads because they had those _hard and difficult to cut crusts_ . Now I don't even ask the baker to pre-slice my loafs, since I can do a better job at home. And artisanal bread? It's basically all we eat now in terms of bread, from ciabatta do whole grain to campaigne bread.
> 
> I've learned many new truths in all the decades that I've been around blades, but honestly, I was amazed at what a simple bread knife can represent.


Which bread knife did you get?


----------



## kennyc (Mar 8, 2021)

danemonji said:


> I used to think I needed more knives. Have totally changed my opinion on knives after having bought the Kramer Zwilling 10 inch and 8 inch carbons (i bought both for 450$) two months ago. After having them thinned, they are the only knives i've used in my kitchen since.
> I don't feel the need to grab any of my japanese or high end knives anymore.
> Also 52100 at 61-62hrc has become my favorite steel. In two months of daily use without a single touch up or strop, both knives are still very sharp and I am no longer obsessed with sharpening. Each day i test their sharpness and they still shave hair.
> I also like the fact that 52100 is not very reactive, taking a gunmetal patina and without any reactivity to acids anymore.
> ...


sorry to run this off topic - what thinning process/service provider did you use? what do the knives look like now? the zkramer carbon 10 was supposed to be my "forever" knife but i'm having trouble coming to terms with how thick it is


----------



## LUWerner (Mar 8, 2021)

curlycues said:


> Which bread knife did you get?


Nothing fancy, just a *Tramontina Century*:







However, as I said, the knife that made the most difference to me in many years.


----------



## GeneH (Mar 19, 2021)

Knife blocks full on German W....TF steel was something to be proud of.
German Steel is the end-all of kitchen and hunting knives.

Now I can be very happy with 3 low-cost Japanese knives from JKI, would be overjoyed to have 3 mid-range knives form Jon. (note I did not pull up any specific mfg, just using JKI as a reference to the quality level of knife that work well for me and my budget)

Both stainless and carbon are fine, prefer stainless or semi-stainless in the kitchen.

I don't need a breadknife.

Older '70's German hunting knives are still cool, but not what I carry in the field anymore.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 19, 2021)

That you want a knife to feel heavy, that meant the knife is solid. 

That jnats have the magical ability to improve any knife edge.


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## GeneH (Mar 19, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> ....That jnats have the magical ability to improve any knife edge.



Having never used jnats, I still believe that.


----------



## captaincaed (Mar 26, 2021)

labor of love said:


> I thought carbon were the best blades but no...good stainless or atleast stainless clad is where happiness truly dwells.


I sharpened my buddy's hiragatake today, and their D2 sharpens more like A2. It's a much nicer sharpening/deburring steel than Yoshi's version. Price is right to. Couldn't remember if you're still looking around.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 26, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I sharpened my buddy's hiragatake today, and their D2 sharpens more like A2. It's a much nicer sharpening/deburring steel than Yoshi's version. Price is right to. Couldn't remember if you're still looking around.


I started a mirror polishing project yesterday (I wish I hadn't now, but it's too late to stop) with a d2 pocket knife. Wow it didn't seem like it would be this wear resistant when I was sharpening it. The sandpaper is barely doing anything to it. I had to order some mini sanding discs for my dremel to hopefully help me get this done.


----------



## captaincaed (Mar 26, 2021)

I don't really have strong opinions on most steels, other than white 3 is useless and D2 is the devil, especially in pocket knife thickness. What a freaking chore.


----------



## dafox (Mar 26, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I don't really have strong opinions on most steels, other than white 3 is useless and D2 is the devil, especially in pocket knife thickness. What a freaking chore.


How does white 3 compare to white 2?


----------



## big_adventure (Mar 26, 2021)

dafox said:


> How does white 3 compare to white 2?



Worse in every way, slightly cheaper.


----------



## Barmoley (Mar 26, 2021)

Less carbon. Should be tougher and less wear resistant. Everything else is same.


----------



## Barmoley (Mar 26, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Worse in every way, slightly cheaper.


How so?


----------



## big_adventure (Mar 26, 2021)

What @Barlomey said is correct - in kitchen knives, where peak toughness isn't really the goal, White 3 is just a less good option than White 2.


----------



## big_adventure (Mar 26, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> How so?



Obviously this is opinion, everyone has, and is entitled to, a different one. White 3 is getting down to low enough carbon amounts that edge retention is objectively pretty poor. White 2 is a fair degree better. Both have the exact same weaknesses - reactivity, sub-optimal edge retention - but White 2 holds edges better than White 3. The difference in toughness between the two isn't really applicable in the kitchen knife space unless you are specifically talking about a knife subjected to pretty horrible treatment. 

Again, this is all my opinion, based on using various knives over time.


----------



## big_adventure (Mar 26, 2021)

Obviously, forging, geometry and heat treatment all have a big effect on performance and/or the steel itself. A really good, careful smith with a great HT for White 3 can make a knife with better performance and edge retention than an indifferently-made White 2.


----------



## captaincaed (Mar 26, 2021)

White 3 for me has had the shortest edge retention, but my experience is n=1, so, you know, grain of salt. For D2 I've had half a dozen. The Hiragatake in D2 I regularly sharpen is pretty darn nice though, sharpens much more like A2.


----------



## big_adventure (Mar 26, 2021)

Similar for me - I've had personal hands-on with 2 knives in White 3, and 2 in White 2. Only one of them was actually mine, the others were borrowed/short-term-traded. I'm basing this in a large part on the science behind the steels - and I'm neither a forging blacksmith nor a metallurgist, so it's information I've mostly acquired through reading and ****.


----------



## Barmoley (Mar 26, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Obviously this is opinion, everyone has, and is entitled to, a different one. White 3 is getting down to low enough carbon amounts that edge retention is objectively pretty poor. White 2 is a fair degree better. Both have the exact same weaknesses - reactivity, sub-optimal edge retention - but White 2 holds edges better than White 3. The difference in toughness between the two isn't really applicable in the kitchen knife space unless you are specifically talking about a knife subjected to pretty horrible treatment.
> 
> Again, this is all my opinion, based on using various knives over time.



I wonder how much better white 2 retention is and if it is detectable in use. White 3 has enough carbon to get pretty hard. There could be a situation where toughness matters more than marginal increase in wear resistance. For example with tougher steel you could conceivably have more acute geometry where white 2 would chip, but white 3 wouldn't and so in such a case white 3 edge would last longer. I don't know if anyone actually optimizes geometry to steel or if white 3 is taken to the same hardness as white 2, so just a thought experiment.

I remember someone here raving about white 3 knives from some famous maker, I forget who. Also recently it's been said that mizuno white steel honyaki are white 3 and have been for years.

In any case I am not disputing your experiences and I haven't used a white 3 knife. I think white 2 has poor retention too. I wouldn't base my decision on the difference between these two when buying from a good maker who knows how to work them.


----------



## tcmx3 (Mar 26, 2021)

thebradleycrew said:


> I used to think that the knife itself was more important than the sharpening (more a collector view). Now I think the sharpening is probably more important than the knife, assuming you are starting with a decent knife (more a user view).



this has been my conclusion as well, and Im far more willing to spend >500 or even more than 1000 on a really nice stone than I am a knife now.

also as you sharpen a knife it becomes yours, and Ive made subtle adjustments to some of my knives that have turned them from a bit uninspiring to exactly what I want. with some work both my Mazaki 240 and Hinoura 210 have turned into knives that are as good as anything else I own, including my old favorites like Kato and a really killer Ittetsu I got from JKI.

Im still willing to shell out for a nice knife if I think it's special. My number recently came up so now Ive got a Shi.han on the way and I paid a fair bit for a Toyama a while back when you add up the knife and the rehandle I had done. But relatively few knives excite me, and nearly every stone I see at least intrigues me.


----------



## big_adventure (Mar 26, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> I wonder how much better white 2 retention is and if it is detectable in use. White 3 has enough carbon to get pretty hard. There could be a situation where toughness matters more than marginal increase in wear resistance. For example with tougher steel you could conceivably have more acute geometry where white 2 would chip, but white 3 wouldn't and so in such a case white 3 edge would last longer. I don't know if anyone actually optimizes geometry to steel or if white 3 is taken to the same hardness as white 2, so just a thought experiment.
> 
> I remember someone here raving about white 3 knives from some famous maker, I forget who. Also recently it's been said that mizuno white steel honyaki are white 3 and have been for years.
> 
> In any case I am not disputing your experiences and I haven't used a white 3 knife. I think white 2 has poor retention too. I wouldn't base my decision on the difference between these two when buying from a good maker who knows how to work them.



I agree with all of that - when you are just talking about the differences between two shirogami steels, the maker, edge geometry and profile all have much more to do with relative performance (including edge retention) then shiro 2 versus shiro 3. 

And as stated, my experiences are pretty limited. If Bob Kramer wants to make me a knife in white 3, I'm not going to say "No Bob, that steel sucks, I refuse to accept it."


----------



## captaincaed (Mar 26, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Similar for me - I've had personal hands-on with 2 knives in White 3, and 2 in White 2. Only one of them was actually mine, the others were borrowed/short-term-traded. I'm basing this in a large part on the science behind the steels - and I'm neither a forging blacksmith nor a metallurgist, so it's information I've mostly acquired through reading and ****.



From what I understand, when you mix iron and carbon, an important change happens around 0.84% carbon, which is called "eutectoid steel". It's the reason 1084 exists, to hit that mark on the nose.

It has something to do with the types of crystalline structures that form, specifically pearlite. Lower is "hypo eutectoid" and higher is "hyper eutectoid". I don't understand much beyond that, but if you burn out too much carbon, you're missing a chance to get full formation of the harder crystalline structures that many of us like in kitchen knives. However, those tougher structures formed in hypo eutectoid steels are better suited for hard-duty blades where impact forces are important. You tend to see swords in 1045 and 1060, which are about 0.45-0.6% carbon, respectively. Sometimes you'll see 1095, but there's often a word of caution to be careful with it. 

Maybe if Larrin isn't sick of our ****, he'll throw a little knowledge bomb in the middle of this. I'd personally love to know a bit more. White 3 steel _looks _like it should be at least eutectoid, and I'm curious what happens as you approach 1.3% carbon with White 1.


----------



## jwthaparc (Mar 26, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> White 3 for me has had the shortest edge retention, but my experience is n=1, so, you know, grain of salt. For D2 I've had half a dozen. The Hiragatake in D2 I regularly sharpen is pretty darn nice though, sharpens much more like A2.


D2 does sharpen nicely. It just gave me a hell of a time hand sanding with aluminum oxide sandpaper though.


----------



## DavidPF (Mar 27, 2021)

thebradleycrew said:


> Now I think the sharpening is probably more important than the knife, assuming you are starting with a decent knife (more a user view).


I like this - but it's kind of wide open to "OK, define decent knife". Things you learned while you were on the more collector-ish side of things probably still contribute to your knowledge of what a knife needs to be decent.

Anyway, I still agree with you.


----------



## Koop (Mar 27, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> I like this - but it's kind of wide open to "OK, define decent knife". Things you learned while you were on the more collector-ish side of things probably still contribute to your knowledge of what a knife needs to be decent.
> 
> Anyway, I still agree with you.


----------



## DavidPF (Mar 27, 2021)

Did I say something weird or offensive? If I did, it was accidental.


----------



## GorillaGrunt (Mar 27, 2021)

Doesn’t Y Ikeda like white 3 for honyaki? I only have one deba and I’m no expert with it but it’s white 3 which I got because I figured it might benefit from the toughness. Same with my first single bevel, a very thin fuguhiki that I use for lots of things that aren’t fugu


----------



## inferno (Mar 27, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> From what I understand, when you mix iron and carbon, an important change happens around 0.84% carbon, which is called "eutectoid steel". It's the reason 1084 exists, to hit that mark on the nose.
> 
> It has something to do with the types of crystalline structures that form, specifically pearlite. Lower is "hypo eutectoid" and higher is "hyper eutectoid". I don't understand much beyond that, but if you burn out too much carbon, you're missing a chance to get full formation of the harder crystalline structures that many of us like in kitchen knives. However, those tougher structures formed in hypo eutectoid steels are better suited for hard-duty blades where impact forces are important. You tend to see swords in 1045 and 1060, which are about 0.45-0.6% carbon, respectively. Sometimes you'll see 1095, but there's often a word of caution to be careful with it.
> 
> Maybe if Larrin isn't sick of our ****, he'll throw a little knowledge bomb in the middle of this. I'd personally love to know a bit more. White 3 steel _looks _like it should be at least eutectoid, and I'm curious what happens as you approach 1.3% carbon with White 1.



basically you oversature the grains with carbon when the c% hits a certain %. and this point will be different for all steels depending on what else they put in there.

also at a certain % i think the type of martensite changes. lathe and plate. and the type formed with lower carbon % is tougher. 

in the end i wonder if any of this matter at all since most users are completely satisfied with white 2 at 62-63 hrc.
i prefer alloyed steel myself  there is a good reason they put all those extras in there.


----------



## Doffen (Mar 27, 2021)

The changes have been a never ending story. Started with Vic, and still not finish trying knives. But sharpening have been more important than the knife itselves. 
I have enough sharp knives for the rest of my life. Not very expensive, but several of them are good knives. In different steel. The prises that’s ‘normal’ now, is more than I ever think I would pay earlier..

I use more time sharpening and polishing them, and the interest of stones, was a change, now I have more stones than I have knifes...

I


----------



## Doffen (Mar 27, 2021)

inferno said:


> in the end i wonder if any of this matter at all since most users are completely satisfied with white 2 at 62-63 hrc.
> i prefer alloyed steel myself  there is a good reason they put all those extras in there.



I have 5-6 knives in white 2, and one honyaki in white 3. I really like them. So easy on the stones, and the naturals give them a wonderful edge. 
In the other end, I have ZDP. A pain in the .. to sharpen. 

I wonder where I will end up in steel and stones?


----------



## big_adventure (Mar 27, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> From what I understand, when you mix iron and carbon, an important change happens around 0.84% carbon, which is called "eutectoid steel". It's the reason 1084 exists, to hit that mark on the nose.
> 
> It has something to do with the types of crystalline structures that form, specifically pearlite. Lower is "hypo eutectoid" and higher is "hyper eutectoid". I don't understand much beyond that, but if you burn out too much carbon, you're missing a chance to get full formation of the harder crystalline structures that many of us like in kitchen knives. However, those tougher structures formed in hypo eutectoid steels are better suited for hard-duty blades where impact forces are important. You tend to see swords in 1045 and 1060, which are about 0.45-0.6% carbon, respectively. Sometimes you'll see 1095, but there's often a word of caution to be careful with it.
> 
> Maybe if Larrin isn't sick of our ****, he'll throw a little knowledge bomb in the middle of this. I'd personally love to know a bit more. White 3 steel _looks _like it should be at least eutectoid, and I'm curious what happens as you approach 1.3% carbon with White 1.



I fortunately have @Larrin 's book right here.







To summarize, eutectoid carbon content is 0.75%. A steel with euctectoid carbon content transforms from ferrite and cementite into all pure austentite at 732C, where 100% of the carbon in the steel will be in solution. It never has any phases where there is a mix of austentite and either ferrite or cementite.

If the steel has lower carbon content than 0.75%, at the first transformation point, just below that same 732C, it will transform into a mixture of austentite and ferrite. If it has a higher carbon content than 0.75%, at the first transformation point, just slightly above 732C, it will transform into a mixture of austentite and cementite. However, in either case, no matter how much or how little carbon there is in the steel, if you heat it hot enough, you eventually hit a point where it transforms into austentite with all of the carbon in solution. At 1.4% carbon, for example, this happens somewhere around 950C. At 0.2% carbon, it would happen at around 830C. Steels with more carbon than the euctectoid point (0.75) enable us to cause carbides to form by NOT dissolving 100% of the carbon into austentite during treatment. In the example of the steel with 1.4% carbon, if you heat it and leave it below the point where all of the carbon dissolves into austentite (leaving no cementite), that carbon will form carbides in the final steel. Cementite is a carbide, albeit a relatively soft one. The other elements added to the steel are generally there to form other, harder carbides at this point.

I hope that's clear. Short version, when you want a steel with high wear resistance, it will generally be hypereutectoid to enable good carbide formation. There is no intrinsic advantage in a steel being eutectoid, because you can get all of the carbon to dissolve in higher or lower carbon steels by using more heat during treatment.

All of this comes from Knife Engineering, part 3, chapter 11, starting around page 109.


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## Larrin (Mar 27, 2021)

Yes some people are confused that eutectoid is some kind of magic optimal steel in some way but it doesn’t really mean that.

The best amount of carbon in solution is around 0.4-0.6%. Higher gives only small increases in hardness but is increasingly brittle. 52100 has such good toughness because the Cr additions make it easier to keep carbon in that range. 1095, white steels, blue steels, etc. are usually much more brittle for a given hardness.


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## big_adventure (Mar 27, 2021)

Larrin said:


> Yes some people are confused that eutectoid is some kind of magic optimal steel in some way but it doesn’t really mean that.
> 
> The best amount of carbon in solution is around 0.4-0.6%. Higher gives only small increases in hardness but is increasingly brittle. 52100 has such good toughness because the Cr additions make it easier to keep carbon in that range. 1095, white steels, blue steels, etc. are usually much more brittle for a given hardness.



This man has forgotten more about steel than I know - I'd listen to him (well, as shown by the book I cited, I _do_ listen to him).

Also, in edit mode: I would imagine it is confusing because in most language use, you want to be at the place that isn't hypo- or hyper-, you want to avoid the extremes. You don't want to be hypo- or hyper-glycemic. So people start hearing about eutectoid and imagine that, if there is a complicated, greek-based word with hypo- and hyper- modifiers applied, one should strive to avoid those. Just a guess...


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## DavidPF (Mar 27, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I would imagine it is confusing because in most language use, you want to be at the place that isn't hypo- or hyper-, you want to avoid the extremes. You don't want to be hypo- or hyper-glycemic. So people start hearing about eutectoid and imagine that, if there is a complicated, greek-based word with hypo- and hyper- modifiers applied, one should strive to avoid those.


... and in a lot of what we hear, if there's a "eu...", then there's a "dys..." to oppose it.

The difference here is that eutectoid (and its hypo- and hyper-) are neither good nor bad; the eutectoid point is just a kind of pivot point on the scale of how much carbon is in steel.


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## inferno (Mar 27, 2021)

i found this vid on youtube. its a pretty basic vid about metals, but quite good. this is basically what is explained in the first 20 pages in all books about steel more or less.


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## inferno (Mar 27, 2021)

Larrin said:


> Yes some people are confused that eutectoid is some kind of magic optimal steel in some way but it doesn’t really mean that.
> 
> The best amount of carbon in solution is around 0.4-0.6%. Higher gives only small increases in hardness but is increasingly brittle. 52100 has such good toughness because the Cr additions make it easier to keep carbon in that range. 1095, white steels, blue steels, etc. are usually much more brittle for a given hardness.



i have a question for you larrin. do you know how hard you can harden 4130/4140/4340?? as quenched.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 27, 2021)

Doffen said:


> I use more time sharpening and polishing them, and the interest of stones, was a change, now I have more stones than I have knifes...


Me too. Me too


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## inferno (Mar 27, 2021)

Doffen said:


> I have 5-6 knives in white 2, and one honyaki in white 3. I really like them. So easy on the stones, and the naturals give them a wonderful edge.
> In the other end, I have ZDP. A pain in the .. to sharpen.
> 
> I wonder where I will end up in steel and stones?



who knows. i kinda ended up on blue2 as my preferred carbon out of japan. it just takes the best edge. 
for my own stuff its 15n20 and 80crv2. because i can do these with a weed burner and a few firebricks outside my house then into my oven. 
and its just as good as the best carbons from japan. i notice very little difference between most low alloyed carbons. they have the absolute lowest edge retention even when hard. thats it pretty much. easy to sharpen though. always cool to do your own stuff though. 

i kinda went from krupp 1.4116 @ 52hrc, to mac at aus8 @ 60hrc, then to blue2 @ 62 hrc. then to powder ss. then to my own carbons. the more i use knives the less i feel the actual steel matters. since i have the stones i can easily sharpen my knives every single day if i wanted. 

right now i have about 20 knives and 40 stones  now i'm selling stones.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 27, 2021)

inferno said:


> now i'm selling stones.


Good to know. You aren't in the states are you?


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## inferno (Mar 27, 2021)

no. and i'm only selling some of my high grits for now. 10-12k. i have found the good ones i want to keep.
i dont sell stones comercially as a store. fyi.


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## Larrin (Mar 28, 2021)

inferno said:


> i have a question for you larrin. do you know how hard you can harden 4130/4140/4340?? as quenched.


4130 about 55 Rc, 4140/4340 about 60 Rc.


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## chefwp (Mar 28, 2021)

This 8" W_ü_stof Le Cordon Bleu, which I acquired about 15 yrs ago and which felt like an extension of my right hand through so many years, included my stint in professional kitchens will always be the epitome of knives for me, despite my dalliances with a 240 Misono which often came out to slice roasts, a 8" Global G2 which became my 'travel knife,' and that weird Ergochef Crimson that for some reason I always reached for when I needed to plow through a big head of green cabbage to make cole slaw (I think because it was heavy and had great height made it feel right for this).

Well that silly notion ended a little more than a year ago and I no longer have any of the aforementioned except the W_ü_stof, which I still have some love for and sometimes makes an appearance to rock chop some garlic for old times sake.


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## dafox (Mar 28, 2021)

chefwp said:


> This 8" W_ü_stof Le Cordon Bleu, which I acquired about 15 yrs ago and which felt like an extension of my right hand through so many years, included my stint in professional kitchens will always be the epitome of knives for me, despite my dalliances with a 240 Misono which often came out to slice roasts, a 8" Global G2 which became my 'travel knife,' and that weird Ergochef Crimson that for some reason I always reached for when I needed to plow through a big head of green cabbage to make cole slaw (I think because it was heavy and had great height made it feel right for this).
> 
> Well that silly notion ended a little more than a year ago and I no longer have any of the aforementioned except the W_ü_stof, which I still have some love for and sometimes makes an appearance to rock chop some garlic for old times sake.


What have become your favorite knives now? What knife do you use now for the things that you would have used the Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu for?


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## chefwp (Mar 29, 2021)

dafox said:


> What have become your favorite knives now? What knife do you use now for the things that you would have used the Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu for?


Haha, seems like it took a few knives to replace that one, but maybe not out of necessity, but just because I don't really have one favorite. I am using a Yoshi 240 a lot recently, it is newish and the surprising thing is that I used to think the size, 240, just wasn't good for me based on my experience with my old Misono. Well it has been a bit of an epiphany that the size was not the issue, as I really enjoy and am very productive with the Yoshi. But even with that I still reach for the Masakage 210 a lot, and also a Hitohira bunka & a Shinko Seilan nakiri. Those are definitely my frequent fliers.


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## Delat (Mar 30, 2021)

chefwp said:


> Haha, seems like it took a few knives to replace that one, but maybe not out of necessity, but just because I don't really have one favorite. I am using a Yoshi 240 a lot recently, it is newish and the surprising thing is that I used to think the size, 240, just wasn't good for me based on my experience with my old Misono. Well it has been a bit of an epiphany that the size was not the issue, as I really enjoy and am very productive with the Yoshi. But even with that I still reach for the Masakage 210 a lot, and also a Hitohira bunka & a Shinko Seilan nakiri. Those are definitely my frequent fliers.
> View attachment 120467



How do you like the Shinko Seilan? I’ve been thinking about picking up the gyuto as an intro to my first carbon knife, but keep debating if I should get something that’s stainless-clad.


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## BillHanna (Mar 30, 2021)

Delat said:


> How do you like the Shinko Seilan? I’ve been thinking about picking up the gyuto as an intro to my first carbon knife, but keep debating if I should get something that’s stainless-clad.


DOOOOOO IIIIIIIIIIIT. If you don’t like it, it’ll sell.


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## chefwp (Mar 30, 2021)

Delat said:


> How do you like the Shinko Seilan? I’ve been thinking about picking up the gyuto as an intro to my first carbon knife, but keep debating if I should get something that’s stainless-clad.


Even though I am not a huge fan of K-finish on knives, I LOVE THIS KNIFE! I also think it is a real bargain, price-wise. However, if you have money to burn and patience with OOS from retailers the way 210 and 240 gyutos seem like demand is outstripping supply, you could probably definitely find a more desirable knife, but the Shinko would be a great starter/intro. Good luck!


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## chefwp (Mar 30, 2021)

Delat said:


> How do you like the Shinko Seilan? I’ve been thinking about picking up the gyuto as an intro to my first carbon knife, but keep debating if I should get something that’s stainless-clad.


I should also mention, if you are looking broadly to pick up an intro into carbon gyutos, I have really enjoyed the Masakage Shimo 210, it is W2, it is Damascus, but not obnoxiously so, actually very subtle and nice, also at a nice price. I wasn't too keen on the magnolia handle, but burnt mine and actually quite like it now. A strop with compound keeps the W2 super sharp. 
When I got this one, my 10 yr old daughter said about the Damascus pattern, "it looks like a river with trees and people at the side..." So that is all I see now too.


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## JASinIL2006 (Mar 31, 2021)

chefwp said:


> I should also mention, if you are looking broadly to pick up an intro into carbon gyutos, I have really enjoyed the Masakage Shimo 210, it is W2, it is Damascus, but not obnoxiously so, actually very subtle and nice, also at a nice price. I wasn't too keen on the magnolia handle, but burnt mine and actually quite like it now. A strop with compound keeps the W2 super sharp.
> When I got this one, my 10 yr old daughter said about the Damascus pattern, "it looks like a river with trees and people at the side..." So that is all I see now too.
> View attachment 120585



I have one in the 240 mm length and I agree with everything you say about it. Now that Yu Kurosaki is making knives under his own name, though, I wonder if we'll see any more Masakage knives made by him.


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## chefwp (Mar 31, 2021)

JASinIL2006 said:


> I have one in the 240 mm length and I agree with everything you say about it. Now that Yu Kurosaki is making knives under his own name, though, I wonder if we'll see any more Masakage knives made by him.


Knifewear had the shimo line restocked recently, but when I looked yesterday they were already gone, but that is a good question. I've heard good things about his AS Fujin gyutos and they are also beautiful, I picked up a petty in that line a while back and really enjoy using it here and there for smaller things


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## JASinIL2006 (Mar 31, 2021)

chefwp said:


> Knifewear had the shimo line restocked recently, but when I looked yesterday they were already gone, but that is a good question. I've heard good things about his AS Fujin gyutos and they are also beautiful, I picked up a petty in that line a while back and really enjoy using it here and there for smaller things



Some of his newer knife lines (Raijin, Senko) are just a bit too busy for my tastes.


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## chefwp (Mar 31, 2021)

JASinIL2006 said:


> Some of his newer knife lines (Raijin, Senko) are just a bit too busy for my tastes.


I think I totally understand that. As I started to upgrade my knives about a year ago, as time has gone on, I have started more and more to lean towards clean migaki or a natural looking nashiji finish on the cladding, with an interesting boundary line where the cladding meets the edge steel. And even that is taking a back seat to profile and steel. As far as Damascus goes, I do like the subtle way he did it with the Shimo line. Ironically maybe, the first knife I acquired when I got back into this a little more than a year ago has a very dark pronounced Damascus pattern (Shiki black dragon powdered nickel R-2 Dammy). I would totally have already sold it by now if not for the fact that it seems to be the one my wife reaches for, so it is kinda her knife now. I try to encourage her to use them all, but she is afraid of damaging them and won't.


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