# First J Knife



## barakhav (May 25, 2014)

Hi all, my name is Barak, I'm new here.
I'm looking for my next (or first) real J Knife, I've going through google quite a bit lately and I found this place as the most professorial to ask my questions.
I'll start with answers to the questions you asked -

LOCATION
*Israel.*

KNIFE TYPE
*Gyuto.*

Are you right or left handed?
*Right.*

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
*I never tried a Japanese handle and sadly we don't have a place we can try them around here so maybe stick with Western Handle?
My type of grip is mainly pinch if that helps cutting down the options (to 1, haha).*

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
*I'm used to 8" knifes but I'd like to learn a bit more on how does the length effects and maybe try 10".*

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
*Is it good for something else beside dishwasher? if not then no, I wash my knifes by hand.*

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
*$170 (if there's some money left I'll get a sharpener with it, if not I'll send it to sharpening and get one along the way).*


KNIFE USE
*Home.*

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
*Slicing, Mincing, chopping vegetables and a bit of meat cutting.*

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
*Don't laugh but - 8" Zwilling chef knife and a 7" Arcos santoku (not even from the high-end).*

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
*No.*

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
*Mainly Push and chop. A bit of rocking and slicing.*

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
*Longer edge retention, I'd prefer Damascus steel because of it's look but I want to understand how would it effect the knife first (from what I read it doesn't do anything except making the knife more expensive).*

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
*Bamboo.*

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
*No.*

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
*Yes.*

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
*Yes.*


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
*I'm a home chef, I love cooking but I don't do it as a profession.
I'd like to buy a knife that will hold for more then 5 years.
I will have to order my knife from eBay without trying it first.
Before starting to get really into it I wanted a Shun or Global knife but from what I read they aren't as close to more then a few companies that sell their knife for half the price and double the quality.*


----------



## Matus (May 25, 2014)

Welcome to the forum Barak! Now let me see ... 

You say that you prefer pinch grip - I find that Japanese (most often called 'wa') handle works better than western.

Damascus does look beautiful, but it makes the knife more expensive. At you price range I would suggest to go with 'non damascus' option. You will have much larger choice.

You should never put a knife that is supposed to be sharp in a dishwasher - you will damage or at least blunt the edge. You have to place with fine (and mostly Japanese) cutlery and taking care of the knife is part of the 'proces'

Stainless knives are easier to take care of. Carbon knives (and in particular the soft cladding steel, not the cutting edge) will patina over time and may rust of not taken care of properly. Interesting option could be knife with carbon core (cutting edge) and stainless cladding: for example the kasumi Itinomonn from JNS (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com). Gives you the best of both worlds. There are also semi-stainless steels (for example SKD or SLD from Yoshikane). Carbon knives (in particular when new) sometimes stain onions or potatoes before the patina forms. It also demands on the knife (different knives behave differently)

If I may suggest - have a look at some videos from Jon from JKI (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpgJbCAVxzDHKaKYeuGYyOA he explains a lot about steels, how to choose a knife, care and maintenance, sharpening. It is great source of information.

I noticed that you use bamboo cutting board. These are not the best for the task (though WAY better than ceramic or glass - keep away from those) as there is lot of glue that dulls the blade faster than simple side grain board. Of course, the best boards are end grain boards, but those do not come cheaply.

Since you are looking for general chef's knife I would suggest you look at 210mm or 240mm gyuto knives. You could have a look at the offerings from JKI (ask Jon for advice - he is very knowledgeable), Itinomonn from Maksim @ JNS or quite a few others (Fujiwara FKM, Tojiro DP, Suisin INOX western). You are going to get many other options.

Another option could be to pick something here at BST - used knife could be a good start.

Sharpening: For the long term the best option is to get 2-3 stones and lear how to use them. If the budget is tight that something like King 1000 and 6000 stones (also available as 'combination stone') would be a good solution, but again - there are many others.

Should you decided to have your knife sharpened for you - make sure first that the person who sill do that actually knows how to do it (water stones are pretty much the only correct way) not to have your knife destroyed or re-ground instead of sharpened. Finding a knife enthusiast would be your best option, or of course have it shipped to somebody like Jon or Maksim, but that may be costly because of your location.


----------



## larrybard (May 25, 2014)

"Interesting option could be knife with carbon core (cutting edge) and stainless cladding: for example the kasumi Itinomonn from JNS (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com)."

Not with a stated maximum budget of $170, I don't think.


----------



## barakhav (May 25, 2014)

Matus said:


> Welcome to the forum Barak! Now let me see ...
> 
> You say that you prefer pinch grip - I find that Japanese (most often called 'wa') handle works better than western.
> 
> ...



First, thank you very much for the well explained feedback!

I wish I could have tried the wa handle before buying but I might just go for one without.

Yea, I see what your saying about the damascus steel being expensive. Apart from the Tojiro DP Damascus which is still in my budget but it looks a bit less appealing then the Miyabi or Shun which pretty much caught my eye.

Haha, no worries, I never put my knives in the washer, I hand wash them, dry them, and put them back in the drawer (because I don't have a special place for them I'll put this knife in it's box).

What does carbon add to knives if I may ask?

I will put a new cutting board on my list of things I should buy.

How much should does stones cost (if I look them up on eBay I wouldn't want to get ripped off).

I will go over the links and knifes you sent me now. 

Thanks.

EDIT:
Two more questions that popped into my head -
1 - How does a thinner blade effects the knife's behavior?
2 - Does longer edge retention effects the sharpening process of the knife?


----------



## Chef Doom (May 25, 2014)

No one would laugh at what knives you are replacing. Most of us started somewhere. Now if you were replacing say a Shigefusa with say a Henckles, that would be funny.


----------



## James (May 25, 2014)

Carbon steels are GENERALLY easier to sharpen than their stainless steel counterparts, but are much more rust prone. As they patina with use, they gain a bit in the rust resistance department.

For thick/thin knives, you should primarily look at how thin the blade is behind the edge. A knife that is thinner behind the edge will wedge less and require less effort to use, but are more delicate. Wedging describes the splitting of food (note splitting and not cutting); think about getting the blade half way into a carrot, hearing the carrot cracking and looking at the uneven surface of the split. 

For my knives, the ones with the best edge retention are marginally more difficult to sharpen. Thinning is a different story...


----------



## barakhav (May 25, 2014)

Thanks again guys.

I gotta hand it to yea, the more I read up the more it gets harder for me to choose or decide... It is like there is an endless amount of knifes with endless amount of things you need to notice.

The Tojiro, Fujiwara and Suisin (that were recommended here) I read so much about. Lot's of good reviews and a few bad. The things that troubles me the most is (again) that I can't put my finger on which one I should get.

From what I've read so far, thinner blades suits cutting vegetable more which is something I tend to do a lot more. So I guess thin knife is one characteristic my knife should have.
Because I'm a noob with sharpening though care for edge retention a great deal I assume I should take something in the middle, right?
Which of the three would you think would suit me the most? (I've seen that the Suisin is about double the price of the other two but it is still in the price range so I don't mind the price as much if it is much better).


----------



## Keith Sinclair (May 25, 2014)

Welcome Barakhav In your price range the Tojiro DP, Fujiwara & Suisin Inox are good choices. I lean slightly to the Suisin it has a thinner edge profile. Jon at JKI has the Gesshin Uraku 240mm. with a wooden saya at 155.00.

I have heard for overseas shipping Japanese Chef Knives is reasonable. They carry the Hiromoto AS. It is stainless clad, quality carbon steel core. Only the edge patinas it actually looks cool as the edge is like a hamon line.

If you get a nice Japanese Gyuto, the best way to sharpen it is on a whetstone. All you need to start is a medium stone 1000 being the most common grit. I am sure you can find a good medium stone where you are. As mentioned Jon at JKI has very good online sharpening video's to get you started.


----------



## barakhav (May 25, 2014)

keithsaltydog said:


> Welcome Barakhav In your price range the Tojiro DP, Fujiwara & Suisin Inox are good choices. I lean slightly to the Suisin it has a thinner edge profile. Jon at JKI has the Gesshin Uraku 240mm. with a wooden saya at 155.00.
> 
> I have heard for overseas shipping Japanese Chef Knives is reasonable. They carry the Hiromoto AS. It is stainless clad, quality carbon steel core. Only the edge patinas it actually looks cool as the edge is like a hamon line.
> 
> If you get a nice Japanese Gyuto, the best way to sharpen it is on a whetstone. All you need to start is a medium stone 1000 being the most common grit. I am sure you can find a good medium stone where you are. As mentioned Jon at JKI has very good online sharpening video's to get you started.



The Hiromoto AS is surely a beauty after a bit of sharpening work, or is that thinning ? 
But it's handle seems so uncomfortable and cheap...







By the way, while looking for that beauty I stumbled upon another beauty which received a very nice review and is in my budget, does anyone here know the -
*GEKKO 19C27 45 Layers Damascus Chef Knife 240mm*






Hope I'm not leading it the wrong way, just reading up google from top to bottom... I need a smiley with smoke coming out of his ears.

Thanks for all your help,

Barak.


BTW Matus, I already viewed a few of Jon's clips on youtube and learned a few.
I even sent him an email. thanks!


----------



## daveb (May 25, 2014)

If only it were all this easy:







In your location shipping is probably a primary concern. Maxsim at JNS has free worldwide shipping and some excellent choices for both knives and stones. He can be reached through his website and is very responsive - unless of course he's on one of his frequent holidays.:angel2:

The bling factor on inexpensive knives can be compelling. It won't be "cool" anymore after a couple of sessions on stones. Suggest you prioritize the qualities that make a good knife.

Oh, and one for the wallet:

:flush:


----------



## jsjs103121 (May 25, 2014)

Welcome to KKF!! 
I can see you were initially thinking of buying a sharpener (I guess you meant the pull-out sharpener like minosharp one?) and send your knife to a professional sharpener instead of buying stones.
What I would suggest is that you could get a knife in the lower range like Fujiwara FKM and buy a combination stone (like JCK 1000/4000 or King 1000/6000) together which should still cost less than your budget (in fact, you can also get a wooden saya from JCK as well and it will still fit your budget). 

Sharpening is very fun and all you need are Jon's youtube clips, a sharpie (magic marker) and something to deburr like cork or even a rubber eraser or newspaper (of course a knife and a stone  ). Using a sharpie helps a lot and you just need to feel burr formation on the edge using your thumb and deburr properly. 

If you know how to sharpen and properly maintain a J-knife, especially this is for home use, the Fujiwara can last way longer than 5 years. Buying a cheap knife can also give you a very good excuse to upgrade or buy a different type of J-knife in the future. 

Having said that my point was based more on practical reasons and every knife mentioned here will serve you very well for the purpose and they are all great value knives. I'd say follow your instinct and get what you want. 

Believe me or not, some people around me actually prefer German knives... including my mum... because they prefer its heavier weight and its ease of maintenance and it's a lot less sharper (sharpness sometimes intimidate people). For them, I'd recommend Global, if they ask me. You just need to make sure to keep your new knife away from them. :knife:


----------



## citizenY (May 26, 2014)

i didn't think i will get to meet a fellow Israeli on this forum....
perhaps the taste for good cutlery in Israel is starting to pickup..

As someone who was in your shoes about a year ago, i can almost remember myself asking all the same questions (getting mostly the same answers).
here is what i can offer you from my humble 1 knife experience (scouting for my second one these days).

1. Sharpening - sending your Japanese knife to a professional sharpener in Israel is not really an option, there are probably a handful of people in the country that do this, most of the places that advertise sharpening service (some even sell globals or shuns) will not offer what your new knife will need, it will in most cases be a dry grinding of the blade, resulting in a fine Japanese knife with the blade of a German axe.
when you order the knife order a 1K stone with it, and learn to use it, even though it will not be professional, a decent result is not to hard to get, and will be much better than most options you will have.
Some water stones are available in Israel, bot most of them are either junk or very over priced, better to order on with your knife.

2. Since this is your first knife, and it is for home use i recommend not to go for a carbon blade, leaving a carbon knife wet on the board for 20 minutes and it will develop rust spots, and for home use you will probably not wear out the edge frequently.
i use mine on some evenings and on weekends, and i don't need to re-sharpen it very often, maybe every 3 months.
(unlike my previous supermarket knife that i would need to roll sharp every time i wanted to use it).

3. as for the delivery, i cant really help you there, my wife was in NY for a few days (work related), and she got me the knife from the korin store. from what i have seen many shops ship world wide, some charge more than others, and i honestly cant say if there will be any extra customs fees on kitchen knives.

as for selecting your first knife... well.... i feel your pain, it took me months before i was able to finally make up my mind.
i ended up getting a Masamoto VG 210 Gyuto, it does not offer much in F&F, it is quite simple looking really, but i am very pleased with it, it sharpens very easily on a 1K stone and i never felt the need to go any higher then that (on grit levels), after a good sharpening it will go through a ripe tomato like it wasn't even there, and will stay sharp for months.
the 1K stone will not make it "Razor sharp", but since i don't use kitchen knives on the rare occasions that i do shave, i don't mind it that much


----------



## barakhav (May 26, 2014)

Thanks again for all the comments.

jsjs - What you said about getting a lower end knife with the necessary tools did raise a certain flag bug for some reason I'm just not very attracted to the Tojiro or Fujiwara...
If it will come to me not being able to decide then I will probably step down eventually and take one of the two above to save myself money that I will use to buy the next knife.

Could anyone please help me with comparing the two (Tojiro DP and Fujiwara FKM)? Edge retention, ease of sharpening, thinness and other thing that might be good to know?

citizenY - I didn't think I'll see another Israel around here... haha. good to see you and thanks for the advice's.
Sadly that's what I read about most sharpeners in Israel... gladly my cousin is supposed to be a pro knife sharpener with whet stones as far as I've heard (I don't talk to him that much...) so I might just call on a favor.
The Masamoto still didn't catch my eye so much, but I marked that name down just in case.

By the way, I was looking at JCK's knife and stumbled upon these three - KV5 / 6 / 7
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKIVG-10.html#KAGAYAKIVG-10

They are a bit off budget consider I'll need a whet stone that costs around $50 with shipment (KING 1000/6000).

Did anyone try them? have an opinion about them? am I going off the correct path again (should I stick with Tojiro or Fujiwara after all)?

Thanks again.


----------



## Matus (May 26, 2014)

If I were to choose between Tojiro and Fujiwara (please note I have never used either of the two) I might go with Fujiwara. The Tojiro is made of VG-10. While this is actually rather good steel, it is not the easiest one to de-burr during sharpening (now that is personal experience with Shun Classic petty knife). It is not a showstopper, but may confuse someone who has no sharpening experience yet and is about to start.

Still - Tojiro is quoted as one of the best VG-10 incarnations out there and is supposed to be very good value.


----------



## jsjs103121 (May 26, 2014)

barakhav said:


> Thanks again for all the comments.
> 
> jsjs - What you said about getting a lower end knife with the necessary tools did raise a certain flag bug for some reason I'm just not very attracted to the Tojiro or Fujiwara...
> If it will come to me not being able to decide then I will probably step down eventually and take one of the two above to save myself money that I will use to buy the next knife.



Yeah, I feel you. If I were in the same situation and had similar budget, I wouldn't be attracted to Fujiwara or Tojiro either. 

If you know how to sharpen a knife and are not afraid of using a carbon knife, there are much better options out there. This is one of other reasons I recommended buying a cheaper knife to learn how to sharpen and upgrade later to a better knife. I believe this is the learning curve that many of the forum members experienced before including myself. For example, Tanaka Blue#2 Damascus Gyuto can be found around $130-$150. IMO Blue#2 beat VG10 and any other SS in the similar price range in terms of ease of sharpening and edge retention. 

And Tanaka also make knife with VG10 and Ginsanko (Silver #3) within your budget with Japanese WA handle. I saw you wanted to stick with western handle but if you use pinch grip, WA handle will just do fine and you may even find yourself much prefer WA handle to western handle  If you want something more special, you can check out the Tanaka knives. They are well regarded and recommended by many forum members. 

I think this member bought Tanaka VG10 gyuto recently (the post was here), you can ask how he likes it.


----------



## citizenY (May 27, 2014)

the DP is considered a very good knife, and also the Fujiwara, although it is very difficult to compare the two, apart from sharing the same price range they are made from different steels and will be very different ....

in your price range there are a lot more options than just FKM or DP, like jck carbonext, or hiromoto G3, misono stainless.... and many more...
and you will need to put your personal taste into it, for me for example, the visual aspect of the knife was not that important, otherwise for 160$ i would have probably go for an other knife.

most of the knives i have mentioned above are not made from the hardest steel around, but they will still be made of roughly 50% tougher steel then what you are used to if you only used plain euro/Chinese knives, and they are fairly easy to sharpen, and are not prone to chipping as the more high end stuff....
you need to remember that tougher the still is, the more brittle it becomes, and Japanese western blades tend to be much thinner that what you are used to.
also the common geometry of these knives is different than the common french/German style blades, and that takes some getting used to.
and if this your first knife of this type, you will probably be making some wrong moves with it when you begin using it, so a slightly softer ,less brittle steel makes sense as a first knife.
for example the mincing motion that is very natural on a rounded belly german knife, is not really possible the same way on a standard gyuto, it does not have enough belly for it, and i found myself , when starting, "stabbing" the board with the tip of the knife, on the really hard steel (regardless of price), it is easy to chip the tip off that way.

as for sharpening, i really wouldn't worry about it to much, i am probably a terrible sharpener, and i know i add some convexity to my knife when i sharpen it, but it really not that hard to get decent a result, and give a knife an edge that is sharp and can maintain for a good while...

also remember that these knives will not really replace completely you old knives, every once in a while, you might need to cut through some forzen food or some chicken bones, and a *** gyuto is the last knife you want for that stuff (especially if it is VG10), so my old German Style, Chinese made, dull as a teaspoon knife still gets to be in use every once in a while (although not much)


----------



## barakhav (May 27, 2014)

And the list just gets longer haha.

Can you guys please explain to me what F&F means?
And what is the common grinding shapes I'd find on such knifes? and how do they effect the knife's behavior? For example how does a 70/30 Double Bevel differ from a 50/50 Double Bevel?

The Tanaka Blue#2 Damascus Gyuto is BEAUTIFUL, but after all you guys said about burring and deburring tough steel I'm a bit intimidated since I ain't no pro in sharpening.





After all that said, I think I won't be going with a VG-10 knife and save such choices for a second knife so I will learn the basics right, unless you guys think having a Blue#2 Damascus for a first knife isn't that bad to learn how to sharpen with.

In the mean while I was looking at the - JCK Original KAGAYAKI CarboNext and was thinking about it, I heard it has a good edge retention any thoughts?

And is there a good blade such as all the recommended ones just with a wa handle?


----------



## James (May 27, 2014)

The carbonext and tanakas are very nice knives; easy to sharpen and deburr. My only concern is that the Tanaka sports a relatively reactive cladding and it'll require quite a bit of care before it patinas and settles down


----------



## barakhav (May 27, 2014)

James said:


> The carbonext and tanakas are very nice knives; easy to sharpen and deburr. My only concern is that the Tanaka sports a relatively reactive cladding and it'll require quite a bit of care before it patinas and settles down



When you say caring you mean hand washing and instant drying?
or does it involve any other things? 

OH and I forgot to add that if I take the Carbo-Next is it a wise decision to order it extra sharp?


----------



## citizenY (May 27, 2014)

the 70/30 means that the edge is grind 70% on the right side, and 30% on the left side, 50/50 is what you normally see, when you will hold the knife in your hand it will be very visible , it will seem like there is almost no edge on one side, and a thick edge on the other side.

unless you are left-handed, this should not matter much, any knife you order would either be 50/50 or 70/30 (for right handers).
the blue is a carbon steel, if you believe you have the discipline not to forget it on the board after slicing some tomatos, you will enjoy it.
the carbo-next got some good reviews in some places, and it has more stainless qualities.

you need to remember that most of these knives, are not the kind of stainless you are used to, they are more reactive then the 420J supermarket knives you find in most kitchens, my masamoto vg, has developed some spots and stains after i left for a while on the board, they were small , and came off easily with some cleaner, but a "plain" knife would not have developed such stains.
(the VG is considered a "stainless" Japanese knife).
this is true for most higher quality knives, not only from japan....

getting a carbon still knife, clad or not, reqires more attention when you use it, if you are up for it, then great....

F&F stands for fit and finish


----------



## Lizzardborn (May 27, 2014)

barakhav said:


> When you say caring you mean hand washing and instant drying?
> or does it involve any other things?
> 
> OH and I forgot to add that if I take the Carbo-Next is it a wise decision to order it extra sharp?



The opinions on extra sharp service have been all over the place about the quality and result.


----------



## James (May 27, 2014)

handwashing, wiping the blade with a damp cloth during a cutting session and drying it are all good ideas. Here's a video Jon posted about caring for carbon steel knives [video=youtube;tza5pymb5yg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tza5pymb5yg[/video]


----------



## jsjs103121 (May 27, 2014)

citizenY said:


> as for sharpening, i really wouldn't worry about it to much, i am probably a terrible sharpener, and i know i add some convexity to my knife when i sharpen it, but it really not that hard to get decent a result, and give a knife an edge that is sharp and can maintain for a good while...



A HUGE +1 
It is not that hard at all. It may be that you are not familiar with the words we use like burr and deburr, but if you know what they actually mean it is rather very simple concept and you just need to practice and practice. And using a magic marker makes it easier to get better result.

I still think the best option for you is to get a cheaper knife (CarboNext or Fujiwara) and the 1000/4000 combi stone from JCK altogether. I don't know how Koki does it, but their shipping is so cheap although they use EMS. If you order a stone separately, the shipping cost can go up coz stones are heavy.


----------



## barakhav (May 28, 2014)

Well I've read it all and I thank you all for the help!

I've narrowed it down to one of the 3 -
Fujiwara FKM
Carbonext
Hiromoto AS

I'm leaning towards the FKM so I'll be able to abuse it while sharpening, but I'm still a bit troubled with the edge retention of the FKM.

Could you guys please help me narrow down my options considering these criterias:
1. Thin edge.
2. Long edge retention.
3. Easy to learn how to sharpen.

The rest of the criterias i delayed to next knife (like handle, length, looks etc.) when I have a bigger budget and a bigger variety.


----------



## Matus (May 28, 2014)

Since the Hiromoto has super blue (Aogami Super) core it will have most probably the best edge retention (because of higher hardness), but will take more effort to sharpen simply because of higher hardness. I mean it will take more time to sharpen, but it is not hard to de-burr. I have different knife in AS steel and that is the basis for this observation. 

Fujiwara and Carbonext will both be less hard on the HRC scale than the hiromoto so steel removal during sharpening will be faster than with the Hiromoto.

I can not help you concerning the question (1) as I have not used these particular knives.


----------



## barakhav (May 28, 2014)

Thanks Matus, well noted.
If anyone have or tried the knifes i stated I'd be glad if he could also give his opinion.


----------



## Lizzardborn (May 28, 2014)

I have Carbonext - I think it is good piece of steel for the price. 

It was not hard to get it shaving sharp and I am very bad at sharpening. It is stain resistant - expect some discoloration here and there, but it is hard to get it to rust.


----------



## mhlee (May 28, 2014)

For only a little more money than a Hiromoto, you can get a CarboNext (without the ES, which is, in my experience, unnecessary) and a combo stone. 

Having a one of those three knives and no stone is somewhat meaningless, in my opinion. You really should have something to sharpen your knife because, as soon as it gets dull, it's not going to be drastically better than whatever knife you were previously using.

On the other hand, if you're willing to spend a little more and get a thinner knife, you'll see that a knife with a better geometry will be usable after the edge has lost some of its sharpness.


----------



## barakhav (May 28, 2014)

mhlee said:


> For only a little more money than a Hiromoto, you can get a CarboNext (without the ES, which is, in my experience, unnecessary) and a combo stone.
> 
> Having a one of those three knives and no stone is somewhat meaningless, in my opinion. You really should have something to sharpen your knife because, as soon as it gets dull, it's not going to be drastically better than whatever knife you were previously using.
> 
> On the other hand, if you're willing to spend a little more and get a thinner knife, you'll see that a knife with a better geometry will be usable after the edge has lost some of its sharpness.




I will buy a combo stone never mind which knife I buy, that's for sure.

Which knives do you consider as thinner and with better geometry?


----------



## citizenY (May 29, 2014)

barakhav said:


> I will buy a combo stone never mind which knife I buy, that's for sure.
> 
> Which knives do you consider as thinner and with better geometry?



they would all be great choices, it is now totally up for your taste and budget....

the FKM would leave you more then enough for stones.

the carbonext would leave just about enough.

and the hiro would probably leave you with a bigger hole in your pocket than planned.

for your budget, if it was me, i would loose the FKM, and toss a coin for the other 2 

good luck
:running::knife:


----------



## barakhav (May 29, 2014)

Hahaha, that's a good way to decide.
But no need to flip a coin, I will go with the Hiromoto AS and the 1000/6000 JCK Stone (Unless the 1000/4000 King is more appropriate for the job).

I was just curious as to what mhlee meant when he said thinner blade.
When I started reading up I was looking for a Laser blade but I didn't see any in my budget.

Last few questions and before the thread can be closed:
That Sharpie marker, is it something special or can I buy any wide permanent marker? (they don't sell that one in Israel, only the Fine Tip ones and ordering the magnum from the US is over $10 for one! )
The 1000/4000 JCK When Stone comes with a stand or should I buy one (wasn't stated in the site and I saw that the King one comes with it)?


----------



## Castalia (May 29, 2014)

Any permanent marker will do. A damp towel under the stone will work fine while you get started in your sharpening journey.


----------



## jsjs103121 (May 29, 2014)

Somehow I knew you would choose Hiromoto.


----------



## barakhav (Jun 1, 2014)

jsjs103121 said:


> Somehow I knew you would choose Hiromoto.



You should have told me 4 pages ago! hahaha just kidding.

Done deal, I ordered the Hiromoto AS & a King 1000/6000. Now only thing left is the huge anticipation to start using it!

Thanks to all you guys, and I'll be lurking around till I have anything good to add to a thread. :doublethumbsup:


----------



## Umberto (Jun 1, 2014)

Great choice...enjoy the factory edge then use the stones when you feel it's time to push it further.


----------



## citizenY (Jun 1, 2014)

congrats... 

keep us updated, and post some pictures when you get it.
i would also like to know if there was anything special as far as shipping and customs fees.
(hunting for my second knife these days....)


----------



## barakhav (Jun 1, 2014)

Umberto said:


> Great choice...enjoy the factory edge then use the stones when you feel it's time to push it further.



Thanks man! Can't wait for it.



citizenY said:


> keep us updated, and post some pictures when you get it.
> i would also like to know if there was anything special as far as shipping and customs fees.
> (hunting for my second knife these days....)



Of course! Start the timer, I'll give you a buzz once it's here.


----------



## barakhav (Jun 11, 2014)

Hi again!
I know a few have been waiting and I my self have been waiting like crazy for it to get here!
It took 7 days to get to the post office (and two more days for me to be able to pick it up), which is very first for Japan-Israel, and there was no taxes or anything.
I just opened it and I'm so happy with the knife I can't wait to get home and cool something!
No point in saying much about the OOTB edge since I never seen another Japanese knife, but compaired to the knives I had before - it's crazy sharp!!! Already took out a bit of skin by mistake lol.
The knife itself is beautiful, no visual scratches, nothing that needs to be sand paper off (at least not from first impression).
What more can I say? Pics soon!


----------



## barakhav (Jun 11, 2014)

Pic time!





























And of course - Thank you very much for all your help!


----------



## Umberto (Jun 11, 2014)

Price performance you can't beat an inexpensive japanese knife compared to the european makers. If the knife does most of the tasks you require without a fuss leave it alone. If you want a bit more cutting performance, utilize a 500 grit stone and thin the upper shoulders right before the cutting edge...even ever so slightly will make it feel more razor like.


----------



## barakhav (Jun 12, 2014)

Basicly you mean changing the tip from 3 to 2?





My friend has a 200 King stone that I might be able to borrow. would it be ok? if not, what 400 stone is recommended?
And what should I do? sharp it in an angle of around 5-10 Degrees? (is this what you mean - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twP_05UEHIM )

I'm asking all that so I could learn and put goals for myself, but for now, it's so sharp that I rather give myself a few weeks of practice just so I won't cut myself bad.


----------



## Benuser (Jun 12, 2014)

When easing the shoulders I would rather say changing from 2 to 6. The very edge should remain unchanged. Try at the lowest angle you're comfortable with, verify the scratch pattern and go until you've reached the edge. You will have to touch up the edge after this.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 12, 2014)

Not much for diagrams, the convex # 6 is a good cutting edge. Barac you got a nice blade with the Hiromoto AS. On Jons knife sharpening playlist the first 10 videos I think cover double bevel knives. He also covers carbons which is your core steel.

That AS steel will get very sharp even on a 1K stone. My Hiromoto thinning bevel spine is close to the stone maybe 5 degree the final bevel(also called secondary,micro other names) I go spine height between 10 & 15 degree. That creates a small blended bevel that is convex instead of V grind & glides thru food.


----------



## Benuser (Jun 12, 2014)

I must add with the Hiromotos you won't have too much shoulders to easen. As far as I remember from recent ones they come with very thin edges.


----------



## barakhav (Jun 15, 2014)

Thanks for the comments!

I will be watching Jon's vid's for sure, but as far as I recall they don't talk about sharpening from 2 to 6.
So... If I'm sharpening from #2 to #6, when I'm sharpening, should my degree change in order to create that round tip? 

Keith isn't the way you sharpen #5?


And to top it all, yea, I love this knife, I know I didn't use it much but it feels good in my hand (Though still a bit afraid of leaving some of my fingers inside what I make haha).


----------



## James (Jun 15, 2014)

I suggest not creating the rounded tip; just cut the shoulders down a bit and blend the bevel into the blade face.


----------



## barakhav (Jun 16, 2014)

Ok so I'll take it towards #5 cause it looks easier for first times of sharpening to not try and round the tip.

Thanks!


----------



## Benuser (Jun 16, 2014)

Don't worry about geometry, angles or asymmetry proportions unless you want to change the existing configuration. Start sharpening somewhere behind the edge at a very low angle, raise the spine little by little, verify your progress by checking the scratch pattern, go on until you raise a burr, repeat on the other side.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 22, 2014)

barakhav said:


> Thanks for the comments!
> 
> I will be watching Jon's vid's for sure, but as far as I recall they don't talk about sharpening from 2 to 6.
> So... If I'm sharpening from #2 to #6, when I'm sharpening, should my degree change in order to create that round tip?
> ...



Actually I never measure my angles my bevels depend on what I am cutting. For most cutting fruits, vegs, meat without bone etc. Thinning bevel is spine very close to the stone, final bevel just raise the spine.


----------

