# ZK Meiji



## Knifefan (Jul 23, 2015)

Just saw the new ZK Meiji on the SLT website. I'm intrigued by the looks. Anyone out there to comment on performance?


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## EdipisReks (Jul 23, 2015)

Too bad they aren't carbon.


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## Von blewitt (Jul 23, 2015)

Yeah, a 52100 option would be nice 
Nice looking knives though


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## spoiledbroth (Jul 23, 2015)

wow the 10" looks massive... 

... very tall I mean 

:running:


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## marc4pt0 (Jul 23, 2015)

I have been waiting/hoping for a meiji carbon version for quite some time. I was kind of sad to see this stainless Damascus version. Still curious to see one, but as of now it looks to be online sells only. Sigh


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 23, 2015)

Too bad for the lefties out there  

They look neat otherwise


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 23, 2015)

Saw these a little while ago, I personally like the looks of the Meiji more than the Euroline, may check it out if it becomes available in Canada, but would also prefer carbon


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## Mucho Bocho (Jul 23, 2015)

I have a 6" from the WS Meiji line with SG2 cores. Love the knife. Would consider an 8" SLT Meiji if I get a coupon or see them discounted close to a $200 price point. The profile just works, the handle is comfortable for righties, its decent for a production blade. I don't know much about the FC61 steel though.


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## marc4pt0 (Jul 23, 2015)

I remember reading here somewhere that it's a fancy name for AEB-L. Don't know if that's true or not though


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 23, 2015)

SolidSnake03 said:


> Too bad for the lefties out there
> 
> They look neat otherwise



I'm not sure. As a lefty, I prefer to use d-handles fitted for right handers.

If they decided though to go with an asymmetric grind on these then I would be sad.


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 23, 2015)

I was curious about the profile on these (and had some free time) so I cut out and rotated the image of the 10" chef's knife, and laid it up under an image Salty's custom profile (using Photoshop, not paper and glue).

I've not uploaded an image as I'm not sure if it would upset the owners, but the knives I'm referring to are shown here.

http://saltyskitchen.blogspot.ch/2010/05/knifeforums-protoype.html

http://www.surlatable.com/product/P...nckels?expiredSession=true&_requestid=6953784

The result was surprising; with the handles and spines aligned, only minor re-profiling would be necessary to recreate Salty's profile.


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## knyfeknerd (Jul 23, 2015)

marc4pt0 said:


> I remember reading here somewhere that it's a fancy name for AEB-L. Don't know if that's true or not though



The jury is still out -http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/13580-Miyabi-FC61-steel-Anyone-know-what-this-is


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## richard (Jul 24, 2015)

knyfeknerd said:


> The jury is still out -http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/13580-Miyabi-FC61-steel-Anyone-know-what-this-is



There's been a number of other threads elsewhere that it is very likely AEB-L. Also hearing Bob Kramer describe the steel used in the Zwilling Kramer Essentials line in this Youtube video definitely makes it sound it's AEB-L he's describing.


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## richard (Jul 24, 2015)

spoiledbroth said:


> wow the 10" looks massive...
> 
> ... very tall I mean
> 
> :running:



All of the Zwilling Kramer knives are on the tall side...and just FYI my ZK Essentials 10" Chef measures a height of 61 mm at the heel.


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## richard (Jul 24, 2015)

Mucho Bocho said:


> I have a 6" from the WS Meiji line with SG2 cores. Love the knife. Would consider an 8" SLT Meiji if I get a coupon or see them discounted close to a $200 price point. The profile just works, the handle is comfortable for righties, its decent for a production blade. I don't know much about the FC61 steel though.



The coupons that SLT offers out always have Zwilling and Miyabi listed as an exclusion. They will rarely, but sometimes have one-day sales or the like on the Zwilling Kramers, but to really catch them, you have to join their mailing list...but that's how I was able to get a ZK Essentials 10" Chef for $200 (reg. $250) back in December. As for FC61 steel, it's a good if somewhat of an oddball one. Relatively lower in carbon %, but if heat-treated properly (and the ZKs are), it can achieve good hardness and edge retention, and also the very fine grained steel takes a very keen edge. This video is a good one to learn more about various steels:

[video=youtube;jkLsLst8qMc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkLsLst8qMc[/video]


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 24, 2015)

richard said:


> There's been a number of other threads elsewhere that it is very likely AEB-L. Also hearing Bob Kramer describe the steel used in the Zwilling Kramer Essentials line in this Youtube video definitely makes it sound it's AEB-L he's describing.



Here's an excerpt of the description of FC-61 from the Zwilling Canada page:



> A professional special steel was selected, the hardness, sharpness and strength of which has proved its worth on a number of razor blades.



I'm no expert but sounds like AEB-L may be a likely candidate.


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 25, 2015)

Has anyone seen one of these in hand; if so is the damascus pattern 'deep' like on the SG2 range?

I'm thinking of ordering one of the gyuto, but I wasn't keen on the dragging feeling the SG2 ones had when cutting through thicker produce.


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## richard (Jul 29, 2015)

Played with the ZK Meiji 10" chef today at SLT (and also briefly handled the 8" chef). Wow! Very nice knife...to answer your question, the damascus pattern is "deep", so I can feel it when brushing my fingers against it. I didn't cut any bigger items, but it felt really good cutting the celery and carrot they had at the demo station. Geometry is excellent, and it feels very light, nimble and balanced in the hand.


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## 420layersofdank (Jul 29, 2015)

I'm digging it!!! Richard, what was geometry and grind like? S grind, hollow, convex, flat? Super curious but obviously kind of over priced . No?


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## Knifefan (Jul 29, 2015)

MAS4T0 said:


> Has anyone seen one of these in hand; if so is the damascus pattern 'deep' like on the SG2 range?
> 
> I'm thinking of ordering one of the gyuto, but I wasn't keen on the dragging feeling the SG2 ones had when cutting through thicker produce.



The ZK stainless damascus has an etched blade finishing. That's what could cause the dragging. The Meiji doesn't seem to look like an etched finish. If it's deep, like richard mentioned, then they probably did a polish over an etched blade. If so, there shouldn't be the dragging you noticed on the SG2 blades.


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## richard (Jul 29, 2015)

I can't speak too knowledgeable on the construction of the damascus cladding, but as seen in the photo below, the vertical lines that run along the height of the blade...those are the features I could most distinctly feel with my fingers. There is definitely some texture to the cladding...not unpleasant though, actually it feels very nice gripping it in a pinch grip.


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## richard (Jul 29, 2015)

420layersofdank said:


> I'm digging it!!! Richard, what was geometry and grind like? S grind, hollow, convex, flat? Super curious but obviously kind of over priced . No?


Unless I'm mistaken, it appeared to be ground the same way my ZK Essentials chef knife is...which is mostly flat, but slightly convex and with a very gradual distal taper. I've posted a so-so pic of my ZKE (best I could muster, shadows and lighting are kind of terrible) for you to see. As far as I can tell, it is ground symmetrically, but the edge is about 80/20 or 90/10 with 10 deg per bevel.





As for being over-priced...well, it's in the same range as some other popular knives like Konosuke HD. For $350 for the 10", you're getting a knife with very good ergonomics, great performance, flawless fit and finish and very pretty to boot. If it's a bit beyond your budget, consider the ZK Essentials...great knife for the money.


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## richard (Jul 29, 2015)

richard said:


> it feels very light, nimble and balanced in the hand.


Want to clarify my previous comments...they still apply, but I meant to say it feels very light and nimble _for a Kramer,_ and for _a very large knife_! (The height is quite tall, around 60 mm like other Kramers and it feels closer to a 270 mm than a 240 mm). I wasn't able to weigh it, but my ZKE 10" Chef's weighs in at 10.0 oz, so my best guess is the ZK Meiji 10" weighs 9.5 oz (270 g) or less. The balance point is also a bit forward from my ZKE, on the Meiji it's about 1" in front of the bolster. You can definitely notice the lighter handle in the Meiji, though it's definitely not as extremely blade-heavy as some other wa-gyuto's I've handled. The D-shaped asymmetric handle has a very pronounced ridge on the right side. If you don't pinch up on the knife, you definitely notice that ridge in your hand, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's uncomfortable. But when you hold the knife in a pinch grip, the D handle with that ridge makes it feel very secure and feels very good in your hand, especially combined with the balance point being perfectly between your thumb and forefinger and the fact that the blade surface is textured from the damascus.

(Replying to a previous comment from MAS4T0: I also held the knife in my left hand, and it's also comfortable...though the shape reversed in my left hand encouraged a slightly different way of holding the knife. In short, lefties may not be screwed. As far as I can tell, the grind is symmetric  someone please correct me if I'm wrong, so all that would need to be done is convert the edge to symmetric or lefty)


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## turbochef422 (Jul 29, 2015)

I bought a 10" but haven't gotten to use it much yet. The paper it comes with says it has a sg2 super steel core but the blade says fc61. It seems to have a flat grind without much convex and not as pronounced taper as the zk kramer. The zk seemed heavier too but not as thin behind the edge. I don't have my zk 10" anymore but it's from what I can remember the zk seemed more substantial in hand. However the Meiji handle is incredibly comfortable and I think I like the profile a bit more. I'll have to really give it some use and chime in again.


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 30, 2015)

Thank you Richard, that's very helpful.

The shaping of the handle looks similar to Marco's D-handles. I've been using one of those (fitted for a right hander) for about the last year and it feels great in the left hand.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 30, 2015)

Alright....I might have to check one of these out!

My ZK Essential 8' was one of my best all around knives, regret selling it but then again I am kinda an idiot so I'm not surprised I did so


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 30, 2015)

SolidSnake03 said:


> Alright....I might have to check one of these out!
> 
> My ZK Essential 8' was one of my best all around knives, regret selling it but then again I am kinda an idiot so I'm not surprised I did so



Do I recall you also had a 10" 52100 at some point as well? If so how do you think the 8"&10" compared in terms of profile and usage? I may be getting a very special 8" ZK in the fall, but they almost seem not long enough (I really liked the 10" one with its big flat spot), but the particular ones are only available in 8".


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 30, 2015)

tjangula said:


> Do I recall you also had a 10" 52100 at some point as well? If so how do you think the 8"&10" compared in terms of profile and usage? I may be getting a very special 8" ZK in the fall, but they almost seem not long enough (I really liked the 10" one with its big flat spot), but the particular ones are only available in 8".



The main difference between the 8" and 10" is that the 10" has a longer flat spot before the curve to the tip begins.

I had one and used it a lot but I didn't ever really adapt to the high tip, it felt like I had to lift the handle too high to bring the tip in contact with the board. I also found that I needed to either roll the knife with each cut or grip it very loosely in order to avoid accordion cuts. It was a very enjoyable knife to use, but it did require some technical adjustments (for me at least).

What makes this particular one you're looking at "very special"?


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 30, 2015)

MAS4T0 said:


> The main difference between the 8" and 10" is that the 10" has a longer flat spot before the curve to the tip begins.
> 
> I had one and used it a lot but I didn't ever really adapt to the high tip, it felt like I had to lift the handle too high to bring the tip in contact with the board. I also found that I needed to either roll the knife with each cut or grip it very loosely in order to avoid accordion cuts. It was a very enjoyable knife to use, but it did require some technical adjustments (for me at least).
> 
> What makes this particular one you're looking at "very special"?



Hmm, sounds like the 8" wouldn't be all that bad then, assuming I got it correct that you had the 10" as well. My only real complaint with the 10" was I always seemed to dig the heel into my cutting board, but I was able to adjust for this.

If it works out, I'll be getting the ZK Euroline Limited Edition II Carbon Damascus with Karelian Birch handle. Probably the closest thing I'll ever get to a real Kramer.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 30, 2015)

Regarding the 8'' and 10'', yes I did have both and honestly the 10'' profile didn't suit me nearly as well as the 8''. The 10'' had a very large flat spot that seemed to make me hit the heel a bit too hard into the board. I'm not a huge fan of super flat stuff and the 10'' just had way too much flat for me. The 8'' was a nice blend of flat and curved that just worked for me. With the 10'' I found myself hitting the board with a heel a bit, probably because I'm not overly comfortable with or adjusted to such a big flat spot on a knife (cleavers excluded from this, hold/grip those totally different which makes it all work fine)

Further, the 10'' really is a big knife and just wasn't suited to a 1 bedroom apartment kitchen. I had no problem wielding the knife and controlling it effectively but it was just impractical to have that large of a knife in such a small kitchen space. I have the same issue with 270mm gyuto's, really can't go bigger than 240's otherwise it just gets kind of silly trying to find space to even put the knife down safely..


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 30, 2015)

tjangula said:


> Hmm, sounds like the 8" wouldn't be all that bad then, assuming I got it correct that you had the 10" as well. My only real complaint with the 10" was I always seemed to dig the heel into my cutting board, but I was able to adjust for this.
> 
> If it works out, I'll be getting the ZK Euroline Limited Edition II Carbon Damascus with Karelian Birch handle. Probably the closest thing I'll ever get to a real Kramer.



It looks like the hand forged damascus variant has a different profile to the mass produced ones, so I don't know if feedback on the production models will be of much use. 

I can confirm with Photoshop if you'd like.

I remember there being a thread on the carbon damascus variant back when they were first released, with a review from an owner of one but I can't remember who it was.

I hope you're getting a nice discount on it.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 30, 2015)

Thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated.

You don't need to confirm with Photoshop exclusively for my sake, but if you're interested for yourself id be keen to see the results. Whether or not they're the same/different, I'll probably be getting regardless


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 30, 2015)

I'll get it done so you can see, I think that the damascus version is quite a bit flatter and the tip seems lower (which should be better).

It'll only take a few minutes to do a rough job.


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 30, 2015)

Here you go. 

I couldn't find a high resolution photo of the 52100 version from the SLT website. The sizing has been matched and the handles aligned.

It was done in a couple of minutes so please forgive the roughness.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 30, 2015)

Thanks a lot for doing this, the LE II looks really good profile wise when viewed against the 52100.


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 30, 2015)

tjangula said:


> Thanks a lot for doing this, the LE II looks really good profile wise when viewed against the 52100.



You're welcome, and I agree; it does look a lot better.


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## marc4pt0 (Jul 31, 2015)

I couldn't help myself. Just got the 10" chefs Meiji in the mail today. The little note that comes with it states the core steel is SG2 Super Steel.
Haven't used it yet, but it is lighter than the carbon and essential versions. Handle is pretty nice, the metal ferrule isn't sharp on the corners like the Shun version. Super thin behind the edge as well. 
I'll post thoughts later


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## knyfeknerd (Jul 31, 2015)

marc4pt0 said:


> I couldn't help myself. Just got the 10" chefs Meiji in the mail today. The little note that comes with it states the core steel is SG2 Super Steel.
> Haven't used it yet, but it is lighter than the carbon and essential versions. Handle is pretty nice, the metal ferrule isn't sharp on the corners like the Shun version. Super thin behind the edge as well.
> I'll post thoughts later



PASSAROUND!PASSAROUND!PASSAROUND!PASSAROUND!
PASSAROUND!PASSAROUND!PASSAROUND!PASSAROUND!


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 31, 2015)

marc4pt0 said:


> I couldn't help myself. Just got the 10" chefs Meiji in the mail today. The little note that comes with it states the core steel is SG2 Super Steel.
> Haven't used it yet, but it is lighter than the carbon and essential versions. Handle is pretty nice, the metal ferrule isn't sharp on the corners like the Shun version. Super thin behind the edge as well.
> I'll post thoughts later



Pics too!


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## richard (Aug 1, 2015)

marc4pt0 said:


> I couldn't help myself. Just got the 10" chefs Meiji in the mail today. The little note that comes with it states the core steel is SG2 Super Steel.
> Haven't used it yet, but it is lighter than the carbon and essential versions. Handle is pretty nice, the metal ferrule isn't sharp on the corners like the Shun version. Super thin behind the edge as well.
> I'll post thoughts later


The included pamphlet may have a typo that it's SG2, usually Zwilling's knives that are made of SG2 steel (e.g. Birchwood, Artisan, one of the Morimoto lines) will say "MC63" using their nomenclature, but the Meiji has stamped on it FC61, which is most likely not SG2 and instead AEB-L. Regardless, congrats on your new knife! It's a really nice one, and hopefully you really enjoy it...I know I sure did while demoing it. If by chance you are able to weigh it, would appreciate if you could post that info.


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## marc4pt0 (Aug 1, 2015)

The Knife does have "FC61" stamped on its side, and the pamphlet says SG2. I just thought it was worth mentioning. I think it's just a carry over from their other damascus line, which is SG2. And I'd like to point out that Zwilling _does_ refer to as SG2, not "MC63". 

I think for $350 (actually $335 after 10% discount and taxes added) it's a pretty good knife. I'm quite pleased with it. Onions and carrots are a breeze to cut. Freshly peeled potatoes are as well, however this some decent amount od "sticktion". With a tall blade road, that's almost expected given the flat-ish grind. But when I cut the potato in 1/2 lengthwise, and then come back and do the the rapid fire thin half moon slices, the potato stays put, no sticking.
I mentioned flat-ish grind, but there is some convexing to it. When I hold the knife up to the light and place the flat edge of my business card on it, you can see light shining through on either side of the card. 
Kind of like a &#865;&#865; 

I'll post pics later.


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## richard (Aug 1, 2015)

Yes you're right, Zwilling does indeed call it out as SG2 in online descriptions or sometimes it's even highlighted in the listed item name (e.g. "Miyabi Birchwood SG"), but on the blade itself will be stamped "MC63" in that case.

That's good to hear about the food release properties on say like potatoes. Can you confirm that the grind is indeed symmetric (although with an asymmetric edge)?


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 1, 2015)

Looks like another 10" just turned up on BST along with some other knives


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## richard (Aug 3, 2015)

Played with the 10" Meiji some more today and had it side by side at SLT with the 10" Essentials, and it appears while the grind style between the two is the same, the Meiji is slightly thinner both at the spine, and behind the edge.

(Also just a heads up to folks that SLT's new return policy as of Feb this year is 60 days).


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 3, 2015)

I handled it yesterday too. Its very thin and the damascus is like the Sukenari ZDP. The handle is exactly the same as on the WS Meiji but WS has deeper damy layers. Profiles are close too, I think the original Meiji are a little taller, but didn't have them both in hand at the mane time to compare.


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 3, 2015)

Sorry if I seem like I've been living under a rock or if I missed something in an earlier post, but when you mention the WS and original Meiji, are you referring to the Shun version of yesteryear? Whereas the SLT version is the new Zwilling Meiji?


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## richard (Aug 3, 2015)

Yes I believe he is referring to the previous Shun Kramer Meiji


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## richard (Sep 18, 2015)

FYI had a chance to weigh the 8" and 10" chef's knives...7 7/8 oz (~220 g) and 8 7/8 oz (~250 g).


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## bonestter (Feb 4, 2016)

Richard - do you have any further thoughts on the 8 and 10 length comparison? Did you get a second chance to handle the 8?

I'm leaning towards the 8 - from the comments by Mucho Bocho and others, and the fact a I only have one 8" knife


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## richard (Feb 5, 2016)

Yes, I ended up getting a ZK Meiji 8" late last year, and I think both the 8" and 10" are great choices, just depends what you are looking for. What are you wanting to know specifically?


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## bonestter (Feb 5, 2016)

Oh, you picked one up, nice one. In that case, what made you go 8 and not 10? What's your usual gyuto length, and how much useage does yours see, and , well, how do you like it?  

The handle sounds good to me, as well as most everything else (carbon core would be nice I suppose  )

Thanks


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## richard (Feb 8, 2016)

I got the 8" instead of the 10" because the former happened to be on sale . My go-to used to be 240 mm, but I have been using my 210 mm and 8" knives more than my 240s in the past year. Prior to getting the ZK Meiji 8", the knife I was reaching to most often was a ZK Essential 8". I sold the ZK Essential 8" as the Meiji is now taking its place. The Meiji is lighter and more nimble, and I find the handle can give more precise control (especially noticeable for the 10" size). Both the 8" and the 10" (from my time test driving it in the store) feel very good in the hand, and have a good fun factor. I actually found the ZK Essential 8" had surprisingly good fun factor as well considering its weight (~9 oz), but it was a unique and interesting combination with its compact length, height, heft and thin geometry behind the edge (+ distal taper). The ZK Essential 10" is very well-performing knife and is comfortable to use, but it doesn't really have the fun factor, at least for me...but that's not really unexpected considering that Bob Kramer's objective designing the Euro/Western-handled line was to have more heft combined with thin geometry, and to be comfortable to use. And in that aim, he succeeded.

In summary if money were no object, I would probably choose the ZK Meiji 10" instead of the ZK Essential 10", but that's just my preferences. Though honestly at the 8" size, it's a bit of a toss-up between the Essential or Meiji...both are very fun to use in their own way. If I didn't have so many knives, I might have considered keeping both...


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## bonestter (Feb 8, 2016)

Thanks Richard, very good feedback comparison. Your summary of the ZK 10" is spot on with mine. An immensely capable knife, flawlessley produced, and very comfortable in use, but not much fun. As such I reach more often for a different knife

I decided on the 8" Meiji and that is what is on its way


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## richard (Feb 10, 2016)

Must be exciting. Let us know what you think when you get it


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## bonestter (Feb 12, 2016)




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