# Honing with Arkansas Stone



## JakeLoveshighCarbon (May 29, 2020)

I made the switch to water stones years ago but the other day I picked up my dad's arkansas black to hone a white #1 after using a synthetic 5k stone. I used light pull strokes, and I swear it must have been a particularly smooth 8 to 10k finish. Anybody have any experience with the Arkansas stones? Does anyone feel like natural stones do something special or was it just the snake oil mixed with soap that I put on the stone? They seemed to give interesting feedback.

I know that the black stones dont remove much material if any, but I'm wondering if I should invest in one as a convenient hone to have in the kitchen rather than my permasoaked 4k synthetic.


----------



## JakeLoveshighCarbon (May 29, 2020)

One more thing to add. I thought the stone gave a spectacular finish, but I was selling that knife an hour later to a chef. The chef, once he got home and tried out the blade, wrote me an email saying how fantastic the edge was on the blade. Maybe the guy just never had a great edge put on his blade before, but maybe it is kinda like all the Jnat voodoo. Maybe the natural stone was just giving me good feedback that I wasn't getting from my synthetics.


----------



## Helmore (May 29, 2020)

I'm not into natural stones, but from what I gather the Arkansas stones have a good reputation. Do you know what Arkansas black stone you have? There are different versions. Hard black, surgical black, etc. Then they come in different grit ratings. Here in the EU, Dictum sells some here: Arkansas Shaped stones | Dictum (Useful to see in how many varieties they come, I'm not familiar with the US sites.)
You'll have to look around to see what people like using them for. And yes, the Surgical Black was named that because they used those to sharpen surgical tools.


----------



## Ruso (May 29, 2020)

I don't know much about naturals or Arkansas, but this stones were used for many years so they definetlly work. I am not surprised that a simple steel like White 1 had a good edge after Arkansas black stone. If it was R2 or ZDP for example you might not have same great results. I believe blacks are the highest grit for Arkansases.


----------



## stringer (May 29, 2020)

I have been getting into Arkansas stones for straight razors. I find Soft Arks and Washitas are great for knives. Too slow for thinning but great for bevel work, touchups, and deburring after coarse synthetics. A Lily white washita has replaced the ceramic rod in my kitchen knife drawer. 

Hard Arks put phenomenal edges on straight razors. They are dense, hard, and slow. I've seen white, translucent, black, blue black, butterscotch, and different combinations of spots and stripes. They are graded not based on appearance but on their specific density. For razors there may or may not be discernible differences depending on who you ask. But for knives they would all perform about the same. 

They will improve a knife edge as well. But you are correct that they won't remove much material. Not very useful for getting a dull edge to usable. But they can make an excellent edge exceptional. They are an ideal finishing choice for a guided system. If you have really good control then they can put a screaming sharp final edge on a knife freehand as well. There just isn't that much room for error since they are quite hard. Easy to under shoot and not hit the apex or over shoot and roll the edge. 

In conclusion - TLDR - soft arks are affordable and a good recommendation for a knife sharpener of any skill level. Hard arks, in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, can squeeze every last bit out of an edge and really minimize any possible burr. I don't know about higher alloyed steels. 99% of my knives and razors are simple carbon.


----------



## Desert Rat (May 29, 2020)

I use them, from Washita's to the hardest of Arks and almost exclusively in the maintenance of my kitchen knifes. 
I would encourage questioning everything you read about them and putting knifes to the stone, they for sure will not be for everyone.


----------



## JakeLoveshighCarbon (May 29, 2020)

Helmore said:


> I'm not into natural stones, but from what I gather the Arkansas stones have a good reputation. Do you know what Arkansas black stone you have? There are different versions. Hard black, surgical black, etc. Then they come in different grit ratings. Here in the EU, Dictum sells some here: Arkansas Shaped stones | Dictum (Useful to see in how many varieties they come, I'm not familiar with the US sites.)
> You'll have to look around to see what people like using them for. And yes, the Surgical Black was named that because they used those to sharpen surgical tools.


Thank you for that link. I dont know the fineness of the stone unfortunately, but I can say the knife felt surgical after I was done. God, i dont want to buy another stone. Please someone just tell me that the Arkansas stones are a waste of time and that i was imagining things.


----------



## KingShapton (May 29, 2020)

JakeLoveshighCarbon said:


> Please someone just tell me that the Arkansas stones are a waste of time


Impossible! These stones are no waste of time! They are great!



JakeLoveshighCarbon said:


> and that i was imagining things.


you didn't imagine anything, it was true!

Unfortunately, I just had a shoulder surgery and typing on a keyboard still causes pain. So I can no longer write about it.


----------



## JakeLoveshighCarbon (May 29, 2020)

stringer said:


> I have been getting into Arkansas stones for straight razors. I find Soft Arks and Washitas are great for knives. Too slow for thinning but great for bevel work, touchups, and deburring after coarse synthetics. A Lily white washita has replaced the ceramic rod in my kitchen knife drawer.
> 
> Hard Arks put phenomenal edges on straight razors. They are dense, hard, and slow. I've seen white, translucent, black, blue black, butterscotch, and different combinations of spots and stripes. They are graded not based on appearance but on their specific density. For razors there may or may not be discernible differences depending on who you ask. But for knives they would all perform about the same.
> 
> ...



Ok, I'll do it. Down into the rabbit hole again. Anyone have a recommended finishing stone/brand? I have an 8k Kitayama and would like something to hone and polish after that instead of using my leather strop/ceramic rod. I dont have any hard stainless, just blues and whites.


----------



## inferno (May 29, 2020)

are newly mined coticules faster than lets say black arks? 

i have read that arks mostly burnish the surface and dont really cut the steel (talking the finer ones). can someone clarify if this is true/untrue?

i know the cotis actually cut the steel. but since the garnet crystals are shaped like balls the cutting isn't exactly "efficient". 
but imo it can be surprisingly fast on softer and lower alloyed stuff imo, like swiss army knives and such.


----------



## stringer (May 29, 2020)

inferno said:


> are newly mined coticules faster than lets say black arks?
> 
> i have read that arks mostly burnish the surface and dont really cut the steel (talking the finer ones). can someone clarify if this is true/untrue?
> 
> ...



Yes, coticules will almost always be faster. They cut. Hard arks burnish/polish. Coticules release material, some more than others. There's no detectible material released by a hard arks. If I rub two coticules together dry I get a fine white powder. If wet then I get slurry. Rub two pieces of hard ark together, wet or dry, they just get shinier.

I have two soft arks that when I rub them together dry it generates quite a lot of sparks. I read up on it and it's a piezoelectric affect from rubbing together quartz crystals. If I rub a coticule on a hard ark then I get a shiny coticule. There's a ton more variety in soft arks and Washitas and tons of variety in coticules. But if someone had a coticule that's slower than any black ark or vice versa I would be highly surprised.


----------



## Bodine (May 29, 2020)

I have a couple of hard/black Ark stones I bought about 50 years ago. They do not remove material, but will polish an edge to a wonderful shine. I keep one in the kitchen and use it instead of a honing rod to keep my edge straight and void of patina or rust.
BTW, they are HARD, and smooth as butter.


----------



## inferno (May 29, 2020)

JakeLoveshighCarbon said:


> Ok, I'll do it. Down into the rabbit hole again. Anyone have a recommended finishing stone/brand? I have an 8k Kitayama and would like something to hone and polish after that instead of using my leather strop/ceramic rod. I dont have any hard stainless, just blues and whites.



are you asking about synths or naturals? i dont have the kit8k but i've heard its a good polishing stone. dont really know if you can improve of the level of polish unless you go up to a 20k suehiro gokumyo, or the glass/pro 30k.

in general stones are worthless for polishing. they always creates scratches and streaks in the finish. and if they dont, they create a hazy finish instead of mirror. in general.

i have the shapton pro12k, and 8k and the 12k is finer but it will not give you a mirror finish thats for sure. i also have the naniwa ss 12k, de facto reference synth finisher for straights. still there is scratches in the finish after this stone.
you can see how it looks in this thread here. the whole knife is mirror polished with those 3 stones. and as you can see this is as good as its gonna get with those. sure my camera is very high rez and i shot the pics to show how the finish really looks if you look close. but from 0,5m away it looks like a true mirror if you just look at the blade. its depenedant on the angle you look from and the angle that the light comes from.

(edit: forgot the thread link  )






My first knife


I've done about 20 or so handles before but this is my first complete knife. its uddeholm 15n20 steel at about 62-63hrc or so. 165C temper. finest grain. its a single bevel 3mm thick blade. 180x60. back side is completely flat. stone flat. all other surfaces are stone flat too. i finished the...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





--------------

if you want a good mirror polish you should look into 0,5 or 0,25micron diamond paste (true mirror), or green Cr oxide (about 0,5 micron), also true mirror.


----------



## inferno (May 29, 2020)

stringer said:


> Yes, coticules will almost always be faster. They cut. Hard arks burnish/polish. Coticules release material, some more than others. There's no detectible material released by a hard arks. If I rub two coticules together dry I get a fine white powder. If wet then I get slurry. Rub two pieces of hard ark together, wet or dry, they just get shinier.
> 
> I have two soft arks that when I rub them together dry it generates quite a lot of sparks. I read up on it and it's a piezoelectric affect from rubbing together quartz crystals. If I rub a coticule on a hard ark then I get a shiny coticule. There's a ton more variety in soft arks and Washitas and tons of variety in coticules. But if someone had a coticule that's slower than any black ark or vice versa I would be highly surprised.



i see. thank you!

i have the spyderco UF and its often said it behaves like a "synth ark". and i have found its painfully slow, and painfully unforgiving on knife blades (its so hard) but it works well with razors since you have built in "angle guides" with those.


----------



## Bodine (May 29, 2020)

My two old hard Arkansas stones, they show no wear after 50 years


----------



## Desert Rat (May 29, 2020)

Hard Arks are removing steel. Surfaces can be manipulated to make them finer or coarser. 
You can clearly see the swarf on this kleenex and the stone after about ten strokes on this translucent. The stone has recently been dress on worn 1000 grit wet dry for razor's. I would never go this fine with knifes, I just did it to demonstrate a point.


----------



## stringer (May 29, 2020)

inferno said:


> i see. thank you!
> 
> i have the spyderco UF and its often said it behaves like a "synth ark". and i have found its painfully slow, and painfully unforgiving on knife blades (its so hard) but it works well with razors since you have built in "angle guides" with those.



Exactly.

Hard arks have physical properties that, when properly dressed, allow them to perform like precision ground flat stones. Check out a YouTube video of you aren't familiar.

A normal abrasives has bits that stick out, the grit. This grit creates new burrs or scratches. Most release grit as you work, combo of grit held in substrate plus grit in slurry cuts edge. We gradually refine them with finer and finer yada yada. Hard arks work entirely different. More like rubbing against an extremely fine microplane style cheese grater. Instead of scratching the knife with bits of grit it works by erasing bits of grit from the knife by catching them in it's pores.

You can take a reference stone and rub it against am actual mirror and it will just make it shinier. Hard ark properly conditioned would behave very similar without having to have precision diamond flat grinding equipment.


----------



## inferno (May 29, 2020)

yeah i'm familiar with precision ground stones (ex machinist).


----------



## JakeLoveshighCarbon (May 29, 2020)

inferno said:


> are you asking about synths or naturals? i dont have the kit8k but i've heard its a good polishing stone. dont really know if you can improve of the level of polish unless you go up to a 20k suehiro gokumyo, or the glass/pro 30k.
> 
> in general stones are worthless for polishing. they always creates scratches and streaks in the finish. and if they dont, they create a hazy finish instead of mirror. in general.
> 
> ...


That's a lovely blade. Damn, I thought 12k would give a mirror. Good to know. I guess there's a reason why straight edge people are always buying the pastes. I didnt really have a preference on natural or synthetic ark. I've been pretty happy with my strop with green compound. I minimize the number of strokes so the edge doesnt pull out and become fragile, but it is mildly inconvenient. I get the oxide over the edge and have to wipe it down. Not that it is that big a deal. I probably spent more time writing this than I would need to wipe the thing down for a couples months, but still, the ark did give great results with less than a minute of back strokes. I have been a little more hesitant about stropping to hone (because of laziness) than I would with an ark or coticule precision flattened. I'll see whats out there and report back. Thank you all for encouraging me in this.


----------



## Brian Weekley (May 30, 2020)

Check out Rough Rooster on YouTube. He has lots to say about Arkansas stones. A soft Arkansas stone was my only stone for over 20 years. I have and use a complete set of Arkansas stones. After mostly moving to Japanese synthetics for the past 20 years I’d say that I can accomplish what I want to accomplish on a kitchen knife faster with a progression of the Japanese synthetics. I can accomplish a finer edge with the Arcs but we’re really splitting hairs here. Nothing relevant to kitchen knives, IMO, where I will often stop at 1200 grit for daily users. Maybe the difference would be more obvious on razors. I LOVE the smell of my Arcs and will often move to them purely to enjoy the experience of a natural stone. Generally Arcs are described in terms of density rather than grit. My surgical hard Arkansas has a surface as shiny as glass. I‘m sure that the world would end before you could wear it out sharpening. I sometimes put an edge on scalpel blades with it just for laughs but I don’t think it has any real practical use in the world of kitchen knives.


----------



## JakeLoveshighCarbon (May 30, 2020)

Brian Weekley said:


> Check out Rough Rooster on YouTube. He has lots to say about Arkansas stones. A soft Arkansas stone was my only stone for over 20 years. I have and use a complete set of Arkansas stones. After mostly moving to Japanese synthetics for the past 20 years I’d say that I can accomplish what I want to accomplish on a kitchen knife faster with a progression of the Japanese synthetics. I can accomplish a finer edge with the Arcs but we’re really splitting hairs here. Nothing relevant to kitchen knives, IMO, where I will often stop at 1200 grit for daily users. Maybe the difference would be more obvious on razors. I LOVE the smell of my Arcs and will often move to them purely to enjoy the experience of a natural stone. Generally Arcs are described in terms of density rather than grit. My surgical hard Arkansas has a surface as shiny as glass. I‘m sure that the world would end before you could wear it out sharpening. I sometimes put an edge on scalpel blades with it just for laughs but I don’t think it has any real practical use in the world of kitchen knives.


I just looked him up. Pretty impressive collection he has and a good breakdown on the different types. Thank you. I never, ever thought I would get into arks. Pain in the tuchus, slow, dumb ass oil everywhere. I learned to sharpen on a Smith's Tri-hone and gave up on using the synth ark on it because it annoyed me. Then I just did the hone strokes after a rika5k on a black after sharpening for the last five years and I was impressed. It straightened the edge nicely, and the edge sucked up anything in front of it. It was almost to the point where the act of touching it was the act of cutting. I dont want want to improve polish anymore as I see that wasn't what was happening. But I think they could become really nice hones to touch up the edge instead of the ceramic rod that clogs up or the dreaded green compound.


----------



## Brian Weekley (May 30, 2020)

One thing I did take from Rough Rooster was to move to water with a bit of New Dawn detergent for a stone lubricant. I bought a new set of Arcs to make the move but Rough Roster has a good video on removing oil from an Arc to convert it to water. For daily maintenance I generally use a hard leather strop with Flexcut Gold followed by leather only. I like the Flexcut Gold a lot and as a result my hones don’t get a lot of use. BTW ... I love the Rika 5000 synthetic. Lovely feel.


----------



## Desert Rat (May 30, 2020)

The dangers of the internet. A guy that can't tell the deference between an Ark an a Washita is referenced as a good source of information.
That's all I have to say on this subject.


----------



## stringer (May 30, 2020)

Desert Rat said:


> The dangers of the internet. A guy that can't tell the deference between an Ark an a Washita is referenced as a good source of information.
> That's all I have to say on this subject.



Before you leave. I do have a few questions about your coarse conditioned ark. What do you usually use it for? How long does it stay "coarse"? Where would you put the speed in cutting compared to a run of the mill coticule with a medium slurry? 

I have some little pocket knife size pieces that I can try on if you think it would be cool for razors.


----------



## Desert Rat (Jun 5, 2020)

stringer said:


> Before you leave. I do have a few questions about your coarse conditioned ark. What do you usually use it for? How long does it stay "coarse"? Where would you put the speed in cutting compared to a run of the mill coticule with a medium slurry?
> 
> I have some little pocket knife size pieces that I can try on if you think it would be cool for razors.


I let the lower grit stones settle in and be what they want to be. I always run twenty or thirty laps with the back of a chisel after I have dressed them to free any loose grit and knock down any rogue particles. The amount of time between opening them back up depends on what you put on them pressure used ect. They are low maintenance though. I like to use a worn diamond plat on them.

The washitas are faster than coticules especially on stiffer razors where you can use some pressure. Start with some pressure finish with light strokes. Pressure is the key and it's why washita's cover such a wide range. The colored ones (Smith's) while they are as fast as any lack the range of the others and can be problematic with hard and soft spots that wear at a different rate and and different feedback. Still they can be a useful stone that puts a aggressive edge on a knife, look for the more uniform colored stones with those if you want one, they should be inexpensive. They only reason to own a soft ark is because it's hard to find washita's in bigger sizes.


----------



## captaincaed (Jun 6, 2020)

I flattened a translucent ark the other day to.get it ready for razors. I think I left it too rough, will likely need to lap it finer for really good razor performance. However I will say the slurry cut like you'd expect a fine waterstone to do. Not something I plan to do often, but fun.


----------



## stringer (Jul 9, 2020)

Desert Rat said:


> I let the lower grit stones settle in and be what they want to be. I always run twenty or thirty laps with the back of a chisel after I have dressed them to free any loose grit and knock down any rogue particles. The amount of time between opening them back up depends on what you put on them pressure used ect. They are low maintenance though. I like to use a worn diamond plat on them.
> 
> The washitas are faster than coticules especially on stiffer razors where you can use some pressure. Start with some pressure finish with light strokes. Pressure is the key and it's why washita's cover such a wide range. The colored ones (Smith's) while they are as fast as any lack the range of the others and can be problematic with hard and soft spots that wear at a different rate and and different feedback. Still they can be a useful stone that puts a aggressive edge on a knife, look for the more uniform colored stones with those if you want one, they should be inexpensive. They only reason to own a soft ark is because it's hard to find washita's in bigger sizes.



Thank you @Desert Rat for taking the time to respond. I always appreciate your perspective. Sorry I didn't see it until now. It turns out that being unemployed can make life quite busy. I have a little piece of soft Arkansas that has become my go to at home kitchen stone. I used to use a ceramic hone. Then I found a little coticule I liked. But now I'm in love with this tiny little piece of soft ark. I have only refreshed it once on some coarse w/d and it wasn't that bad, but it's also tiny doesn't receive much wear. I have been experimenting with really sharpening some kitchen knives on a nice big vintage washita. I am enjoying it quite a bit. The edges really sing. I have tried to use it a little for razors and I have found it much slower than my coticules. However, it does finish in about the same range as my coticules, so I figure it must be on the finer end of the spectrum for washitas. And I also will have to try it on some razors with increased pressure. I'm usually pretty dainty with the pressure.


----------



## Benuser (Jul 16, 2020)

The Ark is likely to leave more bite than a Coticule, whose abrasive particles are almost round. With both of them, when used for deburring, make sure it doesn't get too glazed. It still has to offer some friction to grasp the burr. Atoma is your friend. By the way, very old school, I use saliva. With the Coticule, you get some thick slurry you may dilute with water to get an even finer pattern.
The Coticule has a cheap, often neglected nephew: Belgian Blue Brocken. Works very well for deburring, is too slow for full sharpening IMO. I use it for reviving edges with a few edge leading strokes.


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 28, 2021)

Rather than start a whole new thread just to say this, I'll put it here:

For anyone with a hard/translucent ark who finds it a bit fine or tricky for knife sharpening: Try relatively high pressure passes _exclusively edge-trailing. _I only started playing with this recently, and I can deburr fine, whilst getting noticeably more bite on the finish.


----------



## Benuser (Sep 28, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Rather than start a whole new thread just to say this, I'll put it here:
> 
> For anyone with a hard/translucent ark who finds it a bit fine or tricky for knife sharpening: Try relatively high pressure passes _exclusively edge-trailing. _I only started playing with this recently, and I can deburr fine, whilst getting noticeably more bite on the finish.


What kind of steel did you used this technique on?


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 28, 2021)

Benuser said:


> What kind of steel did you used this technique on?



Oh good q... I've not actually tried my translucents on anything other than Hitachi steels, for this - Aogami 2 and Super. I then strop on paper as normal.

I'd be interested to hear what you and others think if you try the same technique... (maybe I'm going mad, you never know!)


----------



## Benuser (Sep 28, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Oh good q... I've not actually tried my translucents on anything other than Hitachi steels, for this - Aogami 2 and Super. I then strop on paper as normal.
> 
> I'd be interested to hear what you and others think you try the same technique... (maybe I'm going mad, you never know!)


Sure, will give it a try. 
It's almost entirely opposite to what I do. My best deburring is with a light stroke along the edge on a soft Ark. 
I have abandoned edge trailing since quite a while ago, and use only light or very light strokes, even with coarse stones. 
We'll see!


----------



## Bear (Sep 28, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Rather than start a whole new thread just to say this, I'll put it here:
> 
> For anyone with a hard/translucent ark who finds it a bit fine or tricky for knife sharpening: Try relatively high pressure passes _exclusively edge-trailing. _I only started playing with this recently, and I can deburr fine, whilst getting noticeably more bite on the finish.


I do the same thing with edge leading, it seems to refine the edge and still maintain the toothiness of the previous stone. I know I've tried edge trailing before but I'll give it a go again.


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 28, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Sure, will give it a try.
> It's almost entirely opposite to what I do. My best deburring is with a light stroke along the edge on a soft Ark.
> I have abandoned edge trailing since quite a while ago, and use only light or very light strokes, even with coarse stones.
> We'll see!



Yeah I was rolling dice! My thinking was... An leading stroke refines or deburrs an edge, but the difficulty with hard arks isn't deburring and refinement, it's almost the opposite - trying to raise burrs without getting _overly _refined, or polished edges. So pressure, and trailing strokes, should leave some aggression to the edge...

It's seemed to work quite nicely the times I've tried it (only a few), but possibly that's just confirmation bias, so would be good to hear what others think!


----------



## Benuser (Sep 28, 2021)

Edge trailing works well if you want to remove a bit of steel. It's fast. At the very edge though, it removes too much material. Going to a finer stone serves two purposes: refinement, and reducing or eliminating the remaining burr. I want the burr to get abraded, not just weakened by flipping over and hoping it will fall off. The edge it leaves behind is likely to be damaged. For abrading the burr, I find edge trailing too aggressive. The burr gets abraded, but a new one gets raised as well. Especially when some serious pressure is being applied.
The Arks I have used always provide a toothy edge, edge trailing or edge leading. No need for much pressure. The best deburrer I know is a soft Arkansas. That being said, soft is here most relative.
Have tried your technique with the simplest carbon I have, C60 @ 60Rc. Even when reducing pressure I can't reduce the burr with edge trailing. It only flips, or creates an new one, I can't tell. By edge leading I can considerably reduce the burr, and the last remnants are taken away with one or two longitudinal strokes, even with more complex steels.
So, I'm wondering if with the edge trailing strokes and considerable pressure you aren't creating a wire edge. For those who aren't familiar with it, it's a burr on top of the apex, very thin, crazy sharp, but failing after board contact. It may break, leaving a damaged edge behind, or fold, in which case it covers the edge and makes it perfectly dull. Quite common with jig users when they stick just behind the very edge. Jig user or not, to make sure you reach the very edge, use a sharpie and a loupe (8-12x). You will be surprised how often the very edge isn't reached, and all we do is accumulating debris on top of the old edge. A burr is no garantee that the very edge got reached. It may get developed before, as the loupe will show. This is quite likely to occur when big pressure is involved.


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 28, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Edge trailing works well if you want to remove a bit steel. It's fast. At the very edge though, it removes too much material. Going to a finer stone serves two purposes: refinement, and reducing or eliminating the remaining burr. I want the burr to get abraded, not just weakened by flipping over and hoping it will fall off. The edge it leaves behind is likely to be damaged. For abrading the burr, I find edge trailing too aggressive. The burr gets abraded, but a new one gets raised as well. Especially when some serious pressure is being applied.
> The Arks I have used always provide a toothy edge, edge trailing or edge leading. No need for much pressure. The best deburrer I know is a soft Arkansas. That being said, soft is here most relative.
> Have tried your technique with the simplest carbon I have, C60 @ 60Rc. Even when reducing pressure I can't reduce the burr with edge trailing. It only flips, or creates an new one, I can't tell. By edge leading I can considerably reduce the burr, and the last remnants are taken away with one or two longitudinal strokes, even with more complex steels.
> So, I'm wondering if with the edge trailing strokes and considerable pressure you aren't creating a wire edge. For those who aren't familiar with it, it's a burr on top of the apex, very thin, crazy sharp, but failing after board contact. It may break, leaving a damaged edge behind, or fold, in which case it covers the edge and makes it perfectly dull. Quite common with jig users when they stick just behind the very edge. Jig user or not, to make sure you reach the very edge, use a sharpie and a loupe (8-12x). You will be surprised how often the very edge isn't reached, and all we do is accumulating debris on top of the old edge. A burr is no garantee that the very edge got reached. It may get developed before, as the loupe will show. This is quite likely to occur when big pressure is involved.



You tried on a hard/translucent? Or the soft? It certainly wouldn't work for me on a soft or Washita as they're far too aggressive, but on a slightly broken in translucent, it seemed quite good for me.

Also - my technique might have something to do with it (?) - On hard arks I tend to do full length sweeping passes of a knife.


----------



## Benuser (Sep 29, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> You tried on a hard/translucent? Or the soft? It certainly wouldn't work for me on a soft or Washita as they're far too aggressive, but on a slightly broken in translucent, it seemed quite good for me.
> 
> Also - my technique might have something to do with it (?) - On hard arks I tend to do full length sweeping passes of a knife.


Yes, I did. My biggest problem isn't the edge trailing — it's a traditional way of finishing the sharpening routine, after all. It's the pressure. I have to reduce the pressure to get the burr smaller. With high pressure as you suggested it only flips.


----------



## Benuser (Sep 29, 2021)

By the way, @cotedupy , what do you mean by breaking in a natural stone? I don't want them to become glossy, a slightly rougher surface helps in catching a burr. I only have used so far different Arks, Blue Belgians and Coticule if that matters.


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 29, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Yes, I did. My biggest problem isn't the edge trailing — it's a traditional way of finishing the sharpening routine, after all. It's the pressure. I have to reduce the pressure to get the burr smaller. With high pressure as you suggested it only flips.



Yeah I was probably reducing the pressure a bit toward the end I imagine. Next time I give it a go I'll pay closer attention. But it was definitely higher pressure than I'd use for edge-leading strokes on a hard ark, and it seemed more forgiving in terms of over-polishing or rolling the edge.

Re breaking in - exactly that... It mostly applies to hard / translucent arks I think, because of their low friability. When the surface becomes polished or glazed after a while, they're less aggressive and less useful for knife sharpening (for exactly the reason you say). 

Unless what you're after is an edge that is as slick and refined as possible... People who use them for razors tend to want that, so if they buy a new one might break it in by rubbing some metal or a chisel or something back and forth over the surface for a long time in order to burnish and polish it. Often just on one side, so you'd you'd have a combi type affair with one side better for cutting, the other for polishing.

Long-ish vid about it here, if you'd not come across before:


----------



## Benuser (Oct 1, 2021)

Thanks about the clarification on the breaking in of naturals. So, we do the same, by different means, with the same purpose. 
Have noticed a side-effect of the heavy pressure with the edge trailing. If I remove a lot of steel on a coarse stone, I don't immediately go on with the progression. If possible I let it wait a day or even longer. I don't expect the work on the finest stones to be very successful after all that violence. 
I now noticed a similar problem: having used more than usual pressure with the finest stone, the hard Arkie, and completing a very careful deburring successfully, a fat, even burr had appeared along the entire edge after two days without any use. A simple Misono Swedish Carbon, very finely grained, no clustering carbides rearranging or so. Room temperature with some fluctuations: it's my home kitchen, so it varies between 17 and 24 degrees Celsius. I mention the temperature fluctuations because they explained why after air shipping with their very large temperature fluctuations it happens you get carbons with surprising burrs the sender would certainly have noticed, as in the case of a very serious sharpener taking pride in his work. It takes some time before wood gets stable. Steel won't be affected by changes in air humidity I guess. But it takes a bit of time before an edge of a few microns recovers from pressure and stability can be obtained, is my impression.
I will play a bit more with the edge trailing vs. leading and try to eliminate other factors, as pressure, different stones before in the progression, more or less finely grained steel. Great fun!


----------



## ian (Oct 1, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Thanks about the clarification on the breaking in of naturals. So, we do the same, by different means, with the same purpose.
> Have noticed a side-effect of the heavy pressure with the edge trailing. If I remove a lot of steel on a coarse stone, I don't immediately go on with the progression. If possible I let it wait a day or even longer. I don't expect the work on the finest stones to be very successful after all that violence.
> I now noticed a similar problem: having used more than usual pressure with the finest stone, the hard Arkie, and completing a very careful deburring successfully, a fat, even burr had appeared along the entire edge after two days without any use. A simple Misono Swedish Carbon, very finely grained, no clustering carbides rearranging or so. Room temperature with some fluctuations: it's my home kitchen, so it varies between 17 and 24 degrees Celsius. I mention the temperature fluctuations because they explained why after air shipping with their very large temperature fluctuations it happens you get carbons with surprising burrs the sender would certainly have noticed, as in the case of a very serious sharpener taking pride in his work. It takes some time before wood gets stable. Steel won't be affected by changes in air humidity I guess. But it takes a bit of time before an edge of a few microns recovers from pressure and stability can be obtained, is my impression.
> I will play a bit more with the edge trailing vs. leading and try to eliminate other factors, as pressure, different stones before in the progression, more or less finely grained steel. Great fun!



If you suspect you’ve been cursed, let me know. I live pretty near Salem, which has a long history of expertise in witchcraft, and I can reach out to my contacts if necessary.


----------

