# Has carbon steel become redundant



## Godslayer (Jul 7, 2016)

Simple question I've been thinking about for the last 2-3 minutes that I think could lead to a good conversation. Is there any logical reason in 2016 to use carbon steel over the multiple stainless options. Realistically r2 aebl zdp189 g3 etc can all match carbon steel for sharpness and edge retention, toughness etc. The only downside I could think of was cost and even that for most of us is marginal. I was looking at hunting knives and couldn't for love not money think of a reason I'd want one in 52100 over aebl or any other powdered stainless blade. 

Probably gonna make a few people mad with this thread. :knight: 

Whilst writing this I look at my tanaka b#2 which at some point got wet and has me heat broken. Barkeepers friend can't get in the mail soon enough.


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## Chef Doom (Jul 7, 2016)

I say people shouldn't be lazy and keep their knives clean and dry. What's redundant is people complaining of the effort of the old ways of life. Three things I avoid with a passion are stainless steel knives, quartz watches, and skinny jeans. Oh yeah, and everclear. So many bad memories.

I saw a knife set of a person that was stainless steel. They just so happened to all be rusted at the base of the blade and near the handle connection.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 7, 2016)

If you weren't a long time member, I'd swear you were a troll trying to stir the pot.

I'll just take exception to your statement, "...r2 aebl zdp189 g3 etc can all match carbon steel for sharpness...", as will a few others here. Carbon steel still has an advantage in sharpness, although it is a small advantage.

That said, the choice between stainless and carbon comes down to individual preference. 

Rick


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## Ruso (Jul 7, 2016)

You certainly have a point. I find good stainless to be "better" than good carbon more often than not. Perhaps, carbon can get sharper, but common, let's be realistic, at this level it is not noticeable on practice. However, edge retention is usually better on stainless or PM. 
Said that, I own and planning on getting more carbon blades as well as stainless. It's all about the maker, HT, geometry, grind, looks, sentimental attachment, hype etc. etc. And the most important, it is all about variety. I am very glad there are so many options that it's hard to chose the next buy 

In addition, I believe (might be wrong here) it's easier to work with carbon steel for the smith in general, hence the chances are that there are more good hand forged carbon steel blades vs stainless or PM.


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## WingKKF (Jul 7, 2016)

There is no free lunch. What you get in stain resistance is paid for in the reduction of performance in other areas like ease of burr removal, edge stability. Notably edge stability is better in carbon steel than stainless steels. Supposingly an exception to this is AEBL heat treated by Devin Thomas.


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## TheDispossessed (Jul 7, 2016)

I had a knife made by a highly regarded American maker in aeb-l. Hated it. Sharpening the damn thing was unpleasant at best and the steel couldn't handle an acute edge at all without crumbling up. Not for me.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 7, 2016)

I prefer PM steels for parers and pettys mostly because I do a lot of acidic fruits/veg with them. Carbon or SS clad is good for others


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## Godslayer (Jul 7, 2016)

Not trying to troll, just start a dialog/conversation. As far as my knives go I honestly can't say 100% the carbon steel knives have an advantage in performance. I will say they feel different on the stones, my fujiwara being the most glass like knife ive ever used. I also am defiantly not a lazy knife owner. In my 2+ years owning carbon knives this is the second time I've ever seen the reddish brown tinge of nightmares. I do consider being reactive a con and not a plus though. My question more or less stems from the modernization of super steels. I don't think any of us are going to say knife made from softer molybdenum is going to match a well made blades from 52100 or w#2 but a blade made from zdp-189 or aebl just might. I remember when devin put out a score guide for steels aebl placed first. Just something I've been thinking about. I will never drop carbon steel as I do like it and it's little charms. Especially whatever my kato is clad in, always interesting to look at.


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## brainsausage (Jul 7, 2016)

I've always appreciated the feedback of carbon whilst cutting(first), and sharpening(2nd), over any stainless I've yet to work with.

Stainless always feels a bit muted on the board, and gummier on the stones IMO.


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## spoiledbroth (Jul 7, 2016)

I thought the only benefit of carbon (practical) is sharpenability.


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## chinacats (Jul 7, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> I've always appreciated the feedback of carbon whilst cutting(first), and sharpening(2nd), over any stainless I've yet to work with.
> 
> Stainless always feels a bit muted on the board, and gummier on the stones IMO.



Of course imo you could add 52100 as having a crappy/gummy/fake feel on the stones. Only carbon I've found that I disliked...


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## panda (Jul 7, 2016)

If you have to ask, then you might as well go stainless.. Carbon is an acquired taste.


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## brainsausage (Jul 7, 2016)

chinacats said:


> Of course imo you could add 52100 as having a crappy/gummy/fake feel on the stones. Only carbon I've found that I disliked...



I honestly don't have enough experience with it. Just out of curiousity- What's some of the pieces you've tried that were indicative of what you described, Jim?


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## brainsausage (Jul 7, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> I thought the only benefit of carbon (practical) is sharpenability.



As I stated above, I really think that carbon gives waaaaaayyyy better feedback while cutting. Lots of variables there of course, so your mileage may vary in that respect.


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## panda (Jul 7, 2016)

I think semi-stainless might have potential for carbon lovers, for example hap40.


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## chinacats (Jul 7, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> I honestly don't have enough experience with it. Just out of curiousity- What's some of the pieces you've tried that were indicative of what you described, Jim?



I had a MT gyuto which most people seem to love. I had no problem with the steel until I put it on the stones and it just didn't feel what I would call real...again, just soft/gummy is about the best way I can describe it. One knife was enough for me...I've avoided it at all costs since. Should say that edge retention and stability was very good but felt like **** on the stones. I probably should give it another chance, but there are so many great carbons that I haven't felt the need. 

As an aside, if I had to pick one steel (Japanese) that I really like, it would be a tossup between Blue 2 and V2. My favorite non-Japanese steels would be 1.2442 from Germany and whatever Swedish steel it is that Shigefusa uses.


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## Dave Martell (Jul 7, 2016)

Evan, how dare you!?!


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## chinacats (Jul 7, 2016)

panda said:


> I think semi-stainless might have potential for carbon lovers, for example hap40.



The semi-stainless from Heiji was exceptional, but I really hated the schwag stainless cladding so perhaps a mono semi?


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## Godslayer (Jul 7, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> Evan, how dare you!?!



Sorry lol. I wanted to hear opinions on the matter. I was looking at hunting knives. I live in jasper alberta. Little mountain town 4 hours to the closest city and I go camping a good bit. So I looked at knives and thougt stainless was a must. So I got thinking about stainless vs non stainless and metalurgy. Than I thought how far stainless has come. So than I thought is there any practical reason to use a non stainless knife. I than couldn't think of any major reason besides ease of sharpening and ease of heat treat. Ex 1075 can basically be done in a camp fire, a blow dryer, a bucket of water and a toaster oven. I thought about it for another few minutes and decided to post here. Getting us to think. What can I say Dave I like to ask the controversial questions. Coke or pepsi, jack Daniels or crown royal, playstation or xbox. You know the stuff we just don't talk about due to social stigma. P.S. I don't hate carbon I ordered a 300mm tamahagane honyaki yanagiba this morning. Carbon is King but does the possibility exist that being king isn't what it used to be.


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## panda (Jul 8, 2016)

why did you opt for tamahagane? i've read that it is best suited for push cutting and has very poor retention for slicing.

i used to be coke, now pepsi and xbox (was never playstation fan).


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## skewed (Jul 8, 2016)

Godslayer said:


> Carbon is King but does the possibility exist that being king isn't what it used to be.



Yup. Especially when considering some of the semi-stainless steels. I still by a long shot enjoy using and sharpening carbon. Pettys and gyutos 210 and under are the only knifes I buy in stainless/semi-stainless, used for acidic foods and on the line where I can't be as ocd about knife hygiene.


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## panda (Jul 8, 2016)

i think the citrus thing is overblown, i still use full carbon slicing up a bunch of lemons.


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## skewed (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> i used to be coke, now pepsi...



Sorry but that simply doesn't make any sense to me.  I think you are the first crossover cola drinker I have heard of.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 8, 2016)

Not that carbon is not what it use to be, stainless has got much better quality than it used to be. Still there is all kinds of crappy stainless which the majority of people use.


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## Godslayer (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> why did you opt for tamahagane? i've read that it is best suited for push cutting and has very poor retention for slicing.
> 
> i used to be coke, now pepsi and xbox (was never playstation fan).



Honestly it's going to be a show pony, honyaki tamahagane yanagi with hopefully(talking to people about it now) urushi makie saya(black saya, mount fuji, ocean, a few shark fins stick out of water, and a crescent moon) I work in a western kitchen and wanted to have a small(5 piece set of knives for super special occasions and as a show pieces. Thinking honyaki yanagi, Japanese damascus gyuto(takamura 270) , American damascus gyuto(randy hass 240 k tip), a honyaki gyuto and an American single bevel kiritsuke(will be damascus by haburn) All displayed on a traditional Japanese stand. This will be the third piece. Haburn ie coming in September 2017 and the honyaki gyuto in either spring or summer. I've decided to limit myself to one purchase a season, since joining to forum I've boughten 20+ knives and can't bring myself to sell any, I have given my sister and mom some though. I should note I use the takamura as one of my main home knives but being used 3-5x a week it still looks brand new.


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## skewed (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> i think the citrus thing is overblown, i still use full carbon slicing up a bunch of lemons.



Tomatoes are my main product that always gets a stainless knife (the skin being the true test). With a carbon knife, I can feel the knife get duller and duller after ever couple of tomatoes. 10# or so and I am starting to get disgusted. Stainless will keep on chugging along at the 'almost not sharp enough' stage for a very long time.


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## Godslayer (Jul 8, 2016)

keithsaltydog said:


> Not that carbon is not what it use to be, stainless has got much better quality than it used to be. Still there is all kinds of crappy stainless which the majority of people use.



That was my point a 1960's carbon sabitier is a decent knife a 1960's/70's stainless is garbage by comparison... Not sure what year stainless came out. In 2016 a stainless konosuke is a good knife and a carbon konosuke is also a good knife.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> i think the citrus thing is overblown, i still use full carbon slicing up a bunch of lemons.



Could not agree more. As Head Gardemanger went though cases of pineapple, tomato's, lemons, oranges, etc. with carbon gyuto's. Now retired have sold of some of my carbons & have some quality stainless knives.


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## brainsausage (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> (was never playstation fan).



i don't even know who you are anymore...


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## panda (Jul 8, 2016)

it was mostly cause of the controller. N64-awesome, dreamcast-awesome, original xbox amazing (watanabe) playstation-whimpy (laser)!!


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 8, 2016)

Good stainless is great, but i could never find a stainless that matched my favorites in carbon out there regarding the feel while cutting. Especially if we're talking about workhorses (as opposed to lasers).



skewed said:


> Tomatoes are my main product that always gets a stainless knife (the skin being the true test). With a carbon knife, I can feel the knife get duller and duller after ever couple of tomatoes. 10# or so and I am starting to get disgusted. Stainless will keep on chugging along at the 'almost not sharp enough' stage for a very long time.



Have you tried Kato's nakiri or a thin behind the edge Takeda? Never had problems with tomatoes while using those two.


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## labor of love (Jul 8, 2016)

I exclusively use carbon these days due to the fact that I want the edges on my knives razor sharp as often as possible. I don't mind sharpening the same knife 2-3 times a week to make this possible. I'm pretty sure good stainless can get just as sharp with enough stropping and deburring but it simply takes more of my time to achieve the same level of sharpness. The only advantage I see with stainless is that it's literally stain-less, and you can maintain a slightly less sharp edge for a longer period of time.


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## Steampunk (Jul 8, 2016)

I have some stainless that I really like (Akifusa SRS-15 is pretty incredible, and as unpopular as it is, I actually like VG-10 when it is well treated.), but every time I use and sharpen one of my carbon knives, I am reminded precisely why there are people who still swear by carbon in this day and age... It's the same reason why I wind up my watch, change gears manually in a car with a carburetor, and read books made of paper. These are things that need you to take care of them, but they reward you when you do in ways that the more modern, care-free technologies never can. They force you to connect with, and be aware of the relationship that you have with your tools; an awareness that people have had for generations, and one which you notice in its absence. 

Even the worst carbon I've ever sharpened is faster to abrade, less gummy, easier to deburr, and rewards in a sharper edge than most stainless. The best carbons are an almost zen experience to sharpen; they're a tactile cornucopia of pleasurable sensations, particularly when paired with the other anachronism of using natural stones. The resulting edges cannot be touched by even the best stainless, even at relatively low grits; they just reward in a better edge. As mentioned, carbons also feel livelier to use, and whilst the best PM stainless steels today have now exceeded their edge retention, the advantages in absolute sharpness and the time saved in sharpening is notable. Stuff like Aogami Super, well treated, is still no slouch, though; especially as it tends to get toothier as it dulls, so keeps on cutting long after even most good stainless feels blunt. It's anachronistic, yes, but anachronistic in a good way. Anachronistic in a "Hey, we still mature whiskey in wood barrels!", and "We still eat food grown in dirt." kind of way...

At the same time, I am very happy that stainless exists, and has improved to where it is... I am grateful for my PM stainless pocketknife, which can break down numerous cardboard boxes without losing effective sharpness, and that I can carry in my pocket when I am outside working and sweating without worrying about it rusting. I am grateful for my stainless knives when I am mixing gimlets, with the blade constantly immersed in lime juice, and no time to wipe or wash the knife while busily making certain that everyone has a drink in their hand. I'm even grateful for my POS Victorinox that I use to make my food when I've got the flu, leave dirty in the sink, and don't worry about when I then crawl back in bed. 

However, life feels a very sterile place without carbon, and I wouldn't trade its charms for anything... 

- Steampunk


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## Smurfmacaw (Jul 8, 2016)

All have their uses....for the wife...stainless...at least stainless clad. Keeps me from repairing knives continually since she doesn't recognize the whole carbon knife thing. For me, either is ok. I've got an aeb=l Dahlman I love....I've also got a bunch of Katos and shigs....love them all, they all perform amazingly.


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## skewed (Jul 8, 2016)

Stated well, steampunk.


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## skewed (Jul 8, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> i don't even know who you are anymore...



ha- ps->xbox->xbox360->ps4. Evolution in motion.


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## skewed (Jul 8, 2016)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Have you tried Kato's nakiri or a thin behind the edge Takeda? Never had problems with tomatoes while using those two.



Have not tried either but have used many thin behind the edge knives including several w#2 usubas, nakiris and others. Tomatoes just seem like the worst for carbon knives; they dull the edge quickly and they are difficult to begin with since the skin is smooth and tough.


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## skewed (Jul 8, 2016)

labor of love said:


> I exclusively use carbon these days due to the fact that I want the edges on my knives razor sharp as often as possible. I don't mind sharpening the same knife 2-3 times a week to make this possible. I'm pretty sure good stainless can get just as sharp with enough stropping and deburring but it simply takes more of my time to achieve the same level of sharpness. The only advantage I see with stainless is that it's literally stain-less, and you can maintain a slightly less sharp edge for a longer period of time.



Fully agree. This is telegraphed when working in a commercial setting which when using on a casual at home is not nearly as evident or important. My main workhorse knives need to be stupid sharp all the time. This is a matter of enjoyment for me; it makes work fun. My stainless knives are less used, more difficult to sharpen and stay somewhat sharp longer so I don't have to sharpen them nearly as often.


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## RDalman (Jul 8, 2016)

Lately I've been on a carbon appreciation rush. Because of feel on the board and stones, nothing wrong with good stainless though


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## XooMG (Jul 8, 2016)

I am not sure why this is an issue. If you are worried about rust and upkeep, then there are stainless options and you'll be fine.

I just spent some time testing a big heavy knife with a thin edge made of equivalent of 1095. Worked great. I may order an updated version with an aeb-l blade, or maybe I'll get another 1095ish one, or maybe something else completely. As long as he does a good job with it, the carbon/stainless aspect is mostly irrelevant to me. I like a stainless petty for sharing with my significant other who cuts a lot of fruit, and it doesn't feel like a "lesser" knife...just one with a particular quality that is useful for that scenario.

If you feel like you should give up your carbons, feel free. It's not degrading your collection, unless you are sacrificing good knives in the purge.


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## chinacats (Jul 8, 2016)

skewed said:


> ha-_*pong*_->ps->xbox->xbox360->ps4. Evolution in motion.



there, fixed that for you:biggrin:


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## skewed (Jul 8, 2016)

chinacats said:


> there, fixed that for you:biggrin:



You are right, Atari 2600 FTW!


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## joshsy81 (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> i think the citrus thing is overblown, i still use full carbon slicing up a bunch of lemons.



Same here. My personal feeling that carbon is superior. I've used stainless, once I found carbon I was a devotee. Sure it depends on maker and treatment but I'd say on average high carbon is better.


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## Iggy (Jul 8, 2016)

Of course it depends, but for my I definately prefer carbon over stainless overall. I tried (and owned) a lot of better stainless steels for kitchen knives like AEBL, Niolox SB1, ZDP-189, SG2, R2, 19C27 and some other steels from Uddeholm and Sandvik. And some of them are quite good (especially in aspect to edge retention for example) or at least en par with good carbon steels. 
But I feel like there are always some drawbacks in ease of sharpening (maybe it's just the different feel) AND (at least compared to european and american steels like 52100/1.3505, O1, W2, 1.2442, SC125, SC145, 1.2562, 1.2008... and some good heat treatet Shirogami knives) in edge stability and chipping as well.

Of course there are carbon steels as well with that properties.

Since I'm more of a homecook that just occasionally cooks at bigger event like our own small company christmas party or something like that, I prefer Carbon for most of my knives. Only thing I sort of prefer stainless is with some paring and petty knives, because I like to use them along the way with bigger knives as utility knives and so I don't have to wipe them clean when they lie around for some time.

Only stainless bigger knife (cheaper project knives aside) I use is my Suisin IH 240 Gyuto... because it's a classic to me and it's just great 

The Citrusthing is no big deal I think after a stable patina has formed on the carbon blade...:2cents:


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## Sharpchef (Jul 8, 2016)

If stainless would be superior, the german indurstry would switch i think, but they don`t and still build ball bearings and rings out of 52100.

And a proper heat treated knife out of 52100 will beat most of stainless steels by far, and carbonsteels too. 

Some stainless PM Steels got better edge retention then average Carbons, and only tungsten alloyed toolsteels like 1.2442 can get nearly to this. Btw. 1.2562 will beat any P'M Steel in Knife usage (at least at kitchen tasks), for stability (edge holding at lower angle, by miles) and edge retention. Even Citrus fruits and pineapple salads are no problem for a patinated knifes out of monosteel.

Greets Sebastian.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 8, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> If stainless would be superior, the german indurstry would switch i think, but they don`t and still build ball bearings and rings out of 52100.



Superior for ball bearings does not necessarily mean superior for knives, of course, any more than shirogami is necessarily great at making hammers, or car doors, or barbells, or whatever else.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 8, 2016)

That said, my thing is that I want to try all different sorts of steels. I have Blue2 right now, will get AEB-L whenever Dalman gets around to making my knife, and in the meantime I'm torn about a White2 Kagekiyo or a ZDP-189 Sukenari.

Should start a thread about that...


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## Sharpchef (Jul 8, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> Superior for ball bearings does not necessarily mean superior for knives, of course, any more than shirogami is necessarily great at making hammers, or car doors, or barbells, or whatever else.



This was just an example.

If the steel industry would find something better for ball bearings and rings they would offer it, and there is much more money in the game, much more application they can use the steel, more market.....
So for knives there is only a very small market, and so the demand is very manageable, and they would be stupid just too create steels (would be possible maybe to create a steel perfectly matched for knives, that is stainless). There are allready about 2000 or even more different steel alloys all over the world, some fit some don`t.

AEBL by the way was developed for fine cutting tools like the razor blade industry, not for kitchen knives.

There are some steel producers like Achim Wirtz making some alloys just for knifemakers, like the famous SC145 and now the SC125, that beats Shirogami stels in purity.

Greets Sebastian.


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## LucasFur (Jul 8, 2016)

high end super steels vs carbon steels I can see the argument. But not for stainless steels in general. 
This argument was why i bought my Zkramer in 52100 and R2. - and I have been thinking about a sukenari in AS ( to compare my sukenari ZDP) 
From my knife collection, I can say carbons have edges "I" prefer, they are more toothy off the stones and i can dial the edge in the way i want easier.


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## Benuser (Jul 8, 2016)

For the same money you can get a great carbon, or a very average stainless.


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## CB1968 (Jul 8, 2016)

Properly HT AEBL gets almost as sharp as W#1


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## Sharpchef (Jul 8, 2016)

CB1968 said:


> Properly HT AEBL gets almost as sharp as W#1



Even the steel used by companys like Zwilling, Dick ,WMF (1.4116) steel can get as sharp, best example would be Straight razors out of stainless steel like the good old PUMA ones made of 1.4116........ Honing is quite difficult on this level but they can achieve an edge just as good as the good old carbons..... Of course AEBL is easyer to sharpen, and simple carbon steels are more easy too, and the edge retention of that inox steels used by german knive companiys is very bad at such high finish, but it is possible.

greets sebastian.


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## jessf (Jul 8, 2016)

It's like picking which candy bar you want to eat for the rest of your life. Spoiled for choice is my preference. Stainless doesn't take a patina as well and I currently like that aspect of carbon knives.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jul 8, 2016)

jessf said:


> Spoiled for choice is my preference.



Oh Jess, good one, hadn't heard that one before. I'm stealing it.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 8, 2016)

skewed said:


> ha- ps->xbox->xbox360->ps4. Evolution in motion.



XB1 >>> PS4

My XB1 was free because the girlfriend worked on a component in it. However, I will be buying a PS4 on the release day of Ace Combat 7, so there's that.


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## memorael (Jul 8, 2016)

The question I keep asking myself after reading this post is. If INOX is so superior why are shigefusas so desired? shouldn't INOX knives be flying of the shelf? Carbon knives are the real beast in the kitchen.


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## XooMG (Jul 8, 2016)

memorael said:


> The question I keep asking myself after reading this post is. If INOX is so superior why are shigefusas so desired? shouldn't INOX knives be flying of the shelf? Carbon knives are the real beast in the kitchen.


You think Shigefusa are desirable because of their steel?


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## chinacats (Jul 8, 2016)

XooMG said:


> You think Shigefusa are desirable because of their steel?



yes...so long as you don't mind too much a bit of reactivity on the cladding...


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## labor of love (Jul 8, 2016)

My 8 yr old ps3 is alive and kicking still!


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## panda (Jul 8, 2016)

i very much dislike 52100 and aeb-l for the same reasons. perhaps they have those qualities that i find offensive because they werent meant for kitchen knives..


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## Sharpchef (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> i very much dislike 52100 and aeb-l for the same reasons. perhaps they have those qualities that i find offensive because they werent meant for kitchen knives..



What are your favorite knive steels?

Greets SEbastian.


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## panda (Jul 8, 2016)

white #2 and iwasaki swedish carbon


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## Dave Martell (Jul 8, 2016)

No worries Evan, it's good discussion....just don't do it again. LOL


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 8, 2016)

I like very sharp edges that's what turned me into a carbon junkie decades ago. When went to Japan & got carbon Ice Carving chisels loved using could get them sharper than my stainless ice tools. Can still put a great edge on my father's wood chisels. My favorite Spyderco is my Super Blue. These days like my smaller blades in carbon like my Carter. Cool all these stainless clad carbon core options. Sure the softer cladding takes a beating after a while but the blades still cut well.

Carbon & water stones are made for each other. Ease of sharpening is relative trained carbons are a piece of cake, but I have found quality stainless like SKD, AEBL, HSPS, SRS15, Hap40 can take a very fine edge without much effort. 

Since I sharpen quite a few questionable stainless blades that have been rounded or damaged, use a belt, diamond plate to thin them some so I can get a burr on the stones with stronger finger pad pressure. Every now & then I get a blade that is a bear to sharpen. My advice is to chuck them & buy a decent quality Japanese blade.


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## Godslayer (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> i very much dislike 52100 and aeb-l for the same reasons. perhaps they have those qualities that i find offensive because they werent meant for kitchen knives..



See I like aebl. At least my blade from randy. I agree it feels lifeless on the stones but that doesn't bother me that much. I like the fact it's a worryless blade. Not chippy and I can give it to anyone from my grandma(loved it) to my little nephew 8 years old and not have to worry about rust etc. Had to explain no dishwasher though.


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## Sharpchef (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> white #2 and iwasaki swedish carbon



No offence here but especially shirogami 2 has nothing (some woodworking tools maybe) better then 52100. Edge retention seems like a joke compared with 52100, at same angle and you even don`T habe to care about the chipy side of that jSteels......

Greets Sebastian.


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## b2kk258 (Jul 8, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> I've always appreciated the feedback of carbon whilst cutting(first), and sharpening(2nd), over any stainless I've yet to work with.
> 
> Stainless always feels a bit muted on the board, and gummier on the stones IMO.



+1


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## panda (Jul 8, 2016)

get back to me on shirogami2 edge retention after you try a munetoshi. but retention is not the quality i seek in knife steels, it's merely a bonus. this was not always the case. at first i was all about aogami super because it had great retention and still easy as hell to sharpen and was not very reactive. then as i tried more and more stuff, i've come to appreciate the draw of ease of sharpening. not only that, purer (less alloyed) carbons feel different while cutting, i would go so far as to say they actually do feel 'purer' while going through food.

i've never experienced chipping with white steel. i think chip proneness has more to do with being too thin at the edge(or lack of supporting steel behind it) and technique more than the steel itself.


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## labor of love (Jul 8, 2016)

If edge retention is a concern then you should stay away from shirogami. I could care less personally. As long as I don't have to touch up an edge every single day I'm Gucci.


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## Sharpchef (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> get back to me on shirogami2 edge retention after you try a munetoshi. but retention is not the quality i seek in knife steels, it's merely a bonus. this was not always the case. at first i was all about aogami super because it had great retention and still easy as hell to sharpen and was not very reactive. then as i tried more and more stuff, i've come to appreciate the draw of ease of sharpening. not only that, purer (less alloyed) carbons feel different while cutting, i would go so far as to say they actually do feel 'purer' while going through food.
> 
> i've never experienced chipping with white steel. i think chip proneness has more to do with being too thin at the edge(or lack of supporting steel behind it) and technique more than the steel itself.



I doubt this but will try if it got better edge retention then maybe Kato, thank you for the tip.

Greets Sebastian.


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## Ruso (Jul 8, 2016)

I must be the only one who does not see a big difference in sharpening good stainless vs carbon. I much ptefer to sharpen Takamura R2 o Ginga compared to the Shig for example. The two least favorites on stones are Hiromoto AS and Haburn in 52100. While I like Tanaka in b2 very much. So its a mixed bag for me.


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## panda (Jul 8, 2016)

labor of love said:


> If edge retention is a concern then you should stay away from shirogami. I could care less personally. As long as I don't have to touch up an edge every single day I'm Gucci.


no, you're armani


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## Sharpchef (Jul 8, 2016)

Ruso said:


> I must be the only one who does not see a big difference in sharpening good stainless vs carbon. I much ptefer to sharpen Takamura R2 o Ginga compared to the Shig for example. The two least favorites on stones are Hiromoto AS and Haburn in 52100. While I like Tanaka in b2 very much. So its a mixed bag for me.



No you are not the only one, i don`T feel no big difference too! I think it depends on the used stones... i use Chosera and naturals only, and i can feel no difference between stainless or carbon. Only some steels like Vg10 or SG2 need a lie bit of efford to reach ultrasharpness..... thats it.

Greets Sebastian.


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## labor of love (Jul 8, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> No you are not the only one, i don`T feel no big difference too! I think it depends on the used stones... i use Chosera and naturals only, and i can feel no difference between stainless or carbon. Only some steels like Vg10 or SG2 need a lie bit of efford to reach ultrasharpness..... thats it.
> 
> Greets Sebastian.


Heiji semi stainless is the only thing that's come anywhere close for me.


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## panda (Jul 8, 2016)

you forget tanaka ginsan (minus the sh*tty cladding)


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 8, 2016)

How could I forget G3 another easy to sharpen stainless:knife:


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## labor of love (Jul 8, 2016)

panda said:


> you forget tanaka ginsan (minus the sh*tty cladding)



No no no. Heiji> Tillman stainless > tanaka g3> Yoshikane skd


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## LucasFur (Jul 8, 2016)

I would really like to see a Americas test kitchen episode with knives we recommend so they can do a full and proper test of super stainless vs carbon. and use their electron microscope and cutting on glass. -- Must have contenders 
Japanese comparison - Shig (proprietary) / kato(proprietary) / kono fujiyama Blue / Takeda AS / Tanaka R2 / sukenari ZDP - 2 proprietary 2 Blues 2 stainless 
American (custom) comparison - Carter (white) / Devin (AEBL) / ..... help


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## Mucho Bocho (Jul 8, 2016)

Not me. ATK is run by some self-admitted cheap Yankee. I doubt their appreciate the unique qualities of each steel and how it's HT.


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## Soccerman (Jul 8, 2016)

LucasFur said:


> I would really like to see a Americas test kitchen episode with knives we recommend so they can do a full and proper test of super stainless vs carbon. and use their electron microscope and cutting on glass. -- Must have contenders
> Japanese comparison - Shig (proprietary) / kato(proprietary) / kono fujiyama Blue / Takeda AS / Tanaka R2 / sukenari ZDP - 2 proprietary 2 Blues 2 stainless
> American (custom) comparison - Carter (white) / Devin (AEBL) / ..... help


The problem is : how do they get so many rare knives you mentioned, unless this forum can do a collaboration episode with them.
I'm sure they can get all the equipment needed to to the test(because they're in freaking Boston, so many schools).


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## tsuriru (Jul 8, 2016)

Im really enjoying this thread. A lot of whats being written here is true. Then again, some of it is a bit foggy or sounds unfounded. And then there is always a somewhat unquantifiable element when "testing steel A up against B" is concerned, for various reasons. It cant be helped - and it's OK. Sometimes I think it's mainly a wabi-sabi thing - those more accepting of the permeability of organic materials will no doubt embrace carbon steels and all they bring with them. Those less accepting of permeability will embrace the cold (almost) unchanging nature of stainless steels.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 8, 2016)

Yeah, it would be hard to precisely quantify the differences of different steels. As some of the craftsmen have stated, HT can make a bigger difference than steel differences, and no matter what they did when testing sharpening, someone would insist their favorite steel also needed to be tested with a specific JNAT, or a different progression, or yet another technique. It's really going to be a matter of figuring out what you prefer, personally, and going forward with that.


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## Lucretia (Jul 8, 2016)

Most of my knives have ended up being carbon, although the selection process has been more a case of liking a maker's work rather than going for a particular steel. The stainless exceptions are mostly SG2, with an SLD and Cowry X thrown in (the old man ended up with an AEB-L knife with wonderful heat treat--really nice steel when done well.) Good maker, good heat treat, and I'm pretty happy--I've forgotten what particular steels are in most of my knives. Most of the carbons are not terrible reactive if you use just a little bit of common sense. And they're beautiful when they develop a patina.


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## Kingkor (Jul 9, 2016)

What do you guys think of sharpening 52100 by the better western makers (Devin, mert, haburn) compared to their shirogami and aogami? They usually recommend the 52100 from what I've seen and that's usually their go to steel. But how is it on the stones and in terms of sharpness and retention? And for people working in pro kitchens, why would you prefer a carbon over a stainless? Even if your a fanatic your carbon knives if used as line knives or with mass quantities won't get the dedication they deserve. (Excluding fine work in smaller quantities, like shiffonading or super precise cuts)


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## panda (Jul 9, 2016)

Forced patinas.


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## DamageInc (Jul 9, 2016)

Great for searing steaks too.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 9, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> Great for searing steaks too.



Good one DamageInc ;-)


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## JDA_NC (Jul 9, 2016)

Kingkor said:


> What do you guys think of sharpening 52100 by the better western makers (Devin, mert, haburn) compared to their shirogami and aogami? They usually recommend the 52100 from what I've seen and that's usually their go to steel. But how is it on the stones and in terms of sharpness and retention? And for people working in pro kitchens, why would you prefer a carbon over a stainless? Even if your a fanatic your carbon knives if used as line knives or with mass quantities won't get the dedication they deserve. (Excluding fine work in smaller quantities, like shiffonading or super precise cuts)



I really like the 52100 that I've used (Marko) but as read here, a lot of people don't seem to enjoy the feeling on the board or stones. I am also a fan of PM steels so it definitely boils down to personal tastes. The things I enjoy most about it are a) edge retention/durability b) stain resistance and c) ease of sharpening (comparatively speaking against other PM/stainless knives).

And about pro kitchens...

I think people are often hesitant and fearful of "ruining" their knives. By that I mean scratching them up, putting different & experimental edges, having rust happen etc. And that can get in the way of really getting to understand your knife and getting the most out of it. Go to any professional kitchen and you will most likely see some knives that have been heavily sharpened, have had their profiles changed drastically... but haven't been thinned a single time. Because of that they cut terribly and are useless. I know I've had my share. Part of that is because a lack of awareness and information, but the other part is because, deep down, we still want our knives "to look nice" for as long as possible. I remember a poster here talking about going to some convention and proudly showing a maker their knife, who in turned chastised them for not maintaining/thinning the knife properly. If you're going to use a knife a lot, you need to scratch it up (aka thin it out). If you're using a carbon knife heavily, you're going to need to be ready to scrub the rust off. It's not that hard. If you use a single-bevel heavily, you will need to learn how to deal with chips. Just how it is.


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## fedia988 (Jul 10, 2016)

Is there going to be a big difference between steel like 3v and super blue or blue # 2 From what I have read some of the semistainless steels have great edge stability


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## WingKKF (Jul 11, 2016)

fedia988 said:


> Is there going to be a big difference between steel like 3v and super blue or blue # 2 From what I have read some of the semistainless steels have great edge stability



This thread may be informative: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23856-R2-steel-and-edge-retention/page3


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## labor of love (Jul 11, 2016)

Godslayer said:


> Simple question I've been thinking about for the last 2-3 minutes that I think could lead to a good conversation. Is there any logical reason in 2016 to use carbon steel over the multiple stainless options. Realistically r2 aebl zdp189 g3 etc can all match carbon steel for sharpness and edge retention, toughness etc. The only downside I could think of was cost and even that for most of us is marginal. I was looking at hunting knives and couldn't for love not money think of a reason I'd want one in 52100 over aebl or any other powdered stainless blade.
> 
> Probably gonna make a few people mad with this thread. :knight:
> 
> Whilst writing this I look at my tanaka b#2 which at some point got wet and has me heat broken. Barkeepers friend can't get in the mail soon enough.



After rereading this thread I feel like addressing the OP's original post. No, carbon steel blades still haven't become redundant. It's impossible for any steel that contains 13% chromium to behave in a way that's "carbon like" no matter how amazing whatever master American heat treat wizard tells you. Stainless will always be more sifficult to sharpen generally speaking, that is the nature of stainless due to the very ingredients in the steel that make it stainless. Stainless will always be a compromise for me. A compromise that can sometimes make sense, as there are plenty of situations where I find myself wanting more durability and edge retention from my edges in exchange for a longer sharpening session. But ultimately that trade off will always remain.


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## Sharpchef (Jul 28, 2016)

panda said:


> get back to me on shirogami2 edge retention after you try a munetoshi. but retention is not the quality i seek in knife steels, it's merely a bonus. this was not always the case. at first i was all about aogami super because it had great retention and still easy as hell to sharpen and was not very reactive. then as i tried more and more stuff, i've come to appreciate the draw of ease of sharpening. not only that, purer (less alloyed) carbons feel different while cutting, i would go so far as to say they actually do feel 'purer' while going through food.
> 
> i've never experienced chipping with white steel. i think chip proneness has more to do with being too thin at the edge(or lack of supporting steel behind it) and technique more than the steel itself.



as promised i buyed a Munetoshi 240 KU Gyuto from Maxim.........

Yesterday i chopped 1kg of chanterelle, 2 onions some bacon for a pasta..... no chips, kept sharpness well but near the tip the edge deformed.
Just like any other Shirogami 2 steels i have tested (including Kato, Yoshisada etc.).

Today i took the knife to my workingplace, and was able to cut carotts, celery, onions, tomatoes, peppers, cooked beef, for about 50 meals (less work now, hollidays are starting for schools.)
Definately not impressed, my Original Kato (wich was able to do a whole shift with carefull cutting (about 150 meals)) was way better.

I will test with controled sharpening angle of about 36 degree, with different finishers, after my holliday but i don`T think it got better edge retention then original Kato, outperforms my Kato Workhorse for shure, but this is no Shirogami.

52100 definitelly outperforms (with good heat treatment) even Munetshi, so sorry.....

Greets Sebastian.


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## Krassi (Jul 28, 2016)

Hiho!
Still not on holliday @sharpchef! )

i got my ikeda shirogami2 santoku and after full resharpening i am very happy with my first shirogami 2 knife. 
the steel felt much harder to sharpen on 1k stones than my usual stuff.

well i was in such a good mood that i sharpend a lot of different knifes too, and really srs-15 for example was much easier to sharpen on insane sharpness then the shirogami knife 

well i have a mix of many different stainless steels and carbon steels and i really can not say one is much better than the rest or much better to sharpen.. ok i will still go for a sc125 knife soon when i have time to order and wait for around 2 months till its done.
but for me the stainless ones are easier to take care of.

best regards, daniel!


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## spoiledbroth (Jul 29, 2016)

its weird to me that so many people associate patina with carbon knives, looking at the knives at work you'd think they were stainless. Then again I guess the sushiman doesn't very often cut tremendously reactive veg, depending upon the menu I suppose.


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## labor of love (Jul 29, 2016)

Sharpchef said:


> as promised i buyed a Munetoshi 240 KU Gyuto from Maxim.........
> 
> Yesterday i chopped 1kg of chanterelle, 2 onions some bacon for a pasta..... no chips, kept sharpness well but near the tip the edge deformed.
> Just like any other Shirogami 2 steels i have tested (including Kato, Yoshisada etc.).
> ...


You lost me when started equating edge retention with performance. If that's how you gauge performance why not just venture into PM steels or stainless with high edge stability?


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## Adrian (Jul 30, 2016)

I have skimmed through this thread to get a feel for it. I have quite a few artisan made carbon steel knives (single edge usually) bought by me in Japan. And a good few high end stainless of various steels. My perspective is that drawing comparisons is almost pointless: the preferences are largely subjective. Aesthetics are different, but both can perform well. The edge retention point is peculiar: all knives need sharpening and it is just a question of how often. It takes me literally only a couple of minutes to plonk a splash and go on a damp cloth and run the blade over it a few times. It is surely part of the ritual of owning and using high end knives. Anyone with half decent sharpening skills can get a carbon or quality SS plenty sharp enough to do everything we need in a kitchen - debates over one is microscopically sharper than another are rather moot for me. Things like tip deformation suggest to me either a technique issue or a sharpening/thinning issue. The only time I have ever managed to deform a tip on any knife is when I have dropped it.


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## sunnysunlight (Jul 30, 2016)

Carbon steel is a lot harder to maintain than stainless steel. I like to use stainless steel knives


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## Benuser (Jul 30, 2016)

Treat your stainless knives as if they were made of carbon steel. Clean the edge immediately after use, and you get a much better edge retention.


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## Chuckles (Jul 30, 2016)

Carbon steels are cheaper right? Maybe I am wrong. 

If I am going to buy a knife I would rather the money go toward time for the maker to shape and grind it well than towards the properties of the steel. Proper heat treat is essential in either case but it is my understanding that heat treat is cheaper for carbons too.

This alone should be enough to keep carbon knives relevant.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 30, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> Carbon steels are cheaper right? Maybe I am wrong.



That depends... VG-10 is plenty cheap.


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## XooMG (Jul 30, 2016)

Many of us use wooden handles too.


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## brainsausage (Jul 30, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> That depends... VG-10 is plenty cheap.



And is also a pretty crap steel across the board.


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## SliceNDice (Jul 30, 2016)

Obviously it's not only about the steel but the grind and finish... that being said, I have some stainless that seem to hold their edge as much as my carbon blades. But I think many people can't tell the difference between **** and shinola so they go with the masses, and carbon is hot right now. A few decades ago stainless steel was hot and no one wanted carbon.


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## Benuser (Jul 30, 2016)

Haven't seen any crappy carbon yet -- well, some vintages were somewhat disappointing, but still very useful with an adapted geometry and edge, i.e. highly convexed and polished. As for crappy stainless, you better don't ask.


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## Benuser (Jul 30, 2016)

XooMG said:


> Many of us use wooden handles too.



+1


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 30, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> And is also a pretty crap steel across the board.



Also yes.

But, it still disproves the whole "carbon steel is cheaper" thing. Stainless goes all the way from the various 440s up through VG-10, SRS-15, R2, and ZDP-189. Carbon starts with... lord knows what cheap carbon there is and runs up through everything we know and love. It's not a money thing, it's what steel you want and can afford.


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## dharperino (Jul 30, 2016)

Julia Child likes (or liked) carbon steel knives over stainless. See this old episode of hers:

[video=youtube;dw0Ij1Fxgq4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw0Ij1Fxgq4[/video]

She's always entertaining...


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## brainsausage (Jul 30, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> Also yes.
> 
> But, it still disproves the whole "carbon steel is cheaper" thing. Stainless goes all the way from the various 440s up through VG-10, SRS-15, R2, and ZDP-189. Carbon starts with... lord knows what cheap carbon there is and runs up through everything we know and love. It's not a money thing, it's what steel you want and can afford.



Cheaper in terms of producing good results- i.e. The amount of work it takes to produce said results.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 30, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Cheaper in terms of producing good results- i.e. The amount of work it takes to produce said results.



Meh - I don't think that's what he meant, and it's not what I was talking about.

Anyway, preaching to the choir; I love my blues.


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## brainsausage (Jul 30, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> Meh - I don't think that's what he meant, and it's not what I was talking about.
> 
> Anyway, preaching to the choir; I love my blues.



I know what you were talking about. But yeah, meh I guess.


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## supersayan3 (Aug 2, 2016)

I think of VG-10, to be a steel with good characteristics for a kitchen knife, and by just 2 different makers that I have 2 gyutos, I like it.
A little difficult to debur


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## Benuser (Aug 2, 2016)

Nothing wrong with good VG-10, but indeed its deburring is not exactly funny, and you need to have very fine stones to have a good result. I go up to 8k. With a basic carbon burrs will fall off at 2k or even before. For further refinement and maintenance use leather, denim, newspaper, whatever you have.


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## spoiledbroth (Aug 2, 2016)

I get by with a suehiro 5k and vg-10... Again I use the lateral deburring stroke to finish and I can't detect anything that resemble a burr with my fingernail

I think crap steel is going a bit far


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## Benuser (Aug 2, 2016)

Some makers are very well able of ill-treating any steel, and amongst those, VG-10 seems to be a favourite. As for deburring good VG-10, I found a substantial improvement going from a Chosera 5k to a Naniwa Junpaku 8k. And it holds its crazy initial sharpness only for a very short time. The remaining sharpness stays forever, though. But no short touching-up to restore that initial sharpness. With a simple carbon I restore that fresh-of-the-stones sharpness in a few minutes. A few strokes on a dry 2 or 3k, followed by leather or newspaper.


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## Benuser (Aug 2, 2016)

By the way, which two makers of VG-10 blades do you have in mind?


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## spoiledbroth (Aug 2, 2016)

IMO it doesn't take more than five minutes to bring that vg-10 back to life. I have a tojiro so it's not like an artisan knife


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## labor of love (Aug 3, 2016)

Yeah tojiro isn't too bad too sharpen. If I owned a restaurant they would be our house knives.


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## spoiledbroth (Aug 3, 2016)

now I KNOW there are worse manufacturers using vg-10 for kitchen knives, ala zhen and the like. While I'm sure the comments in this thread apply to those knives (which I think are mostly made in China, where some vg-10 billets come from too), I don't have any first hand experience. But I'd hate for someone to be dissuaded from buying a tojiro due to this thread. The dp is great. Sure it's not a "super steel", doesn't hold a great edge for a long time, but hey, sharpening more often is how you're going to get better and subsequently stop complaining about how hard it is to deburr anything


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## richard (Aug 3, 2016)

There are a lot of good makers using VG-10 too (as well as bad). Takamura and Tanaka make VG-10 knives, only to name a couple.


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## spoiledbroth (Aug 3, 2016)

Tanaka too (lol @ edit)! I bet a tanaka compared to a tojiro would even be a world of difference. On a complete aside my recent blackout experience with knives has made me reconsider the old adage about forged knives (what I'm saying is that it seems free forged knives can withstand more extreme abuse than stamped)


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## JaVa (Aug 3, 2016)

I have the Tanaka vg10 and it's terrific knife and I love using it and takes a very decent edge. not too difficult to get sharp IMO. The steel is better than on my Mac Pro which in turn is better than my colleagues Tojiros which i test drive occasionally. And his Tojiros are nice, definitely great bang for buck knives.

I have a few carbons and a PM which are better then vg10, but it doesn't mean vg10 isn't good!


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## JaVa (Aug 3, 2016)

...Although I know (from other peoples stories) there's plenty of crap vg10 knives. I just meant to say my personal experiences have been very positive.


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## Steampunk (Aug 3, 2016)

JaVa said:


> ...Although I know (from other peoples stories) there's plenty of crap vg10 knives. I just meant to say my personal experiences have been very positive.



X2


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## Godslayer (Aug 3, 2016)

No on the says vg10 isn't good. It just isn't as good as many other steels. It's like a corvette vs a lamborghini, the corvette by no means is bad, just less good by comparison.


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## DanHumphrey (Aug 5, 2016)

Godslayer said:


> No on the says vg10 isn't good. It just isn't as good as many other steels. It's like a corvette vs a lamborghini, the corvette by no means is bad, just less good by comparison.



I was going to go a different way - sure, VG10 is "good", in the same sense that a Mitsubishi Endeavor is "good". In both cases, once you take a look at the competitors, you tend to prefer the competitors if you can afford them. How many people would take VG10 over R2, price-independent? Probably not many. It's a great steel for a house knife, or a "don't have to worry" knife, but is it what you _want_?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 5, 2016)

Given that I know R2 from thin and delicate stuff like Takamura, and VG2/VG5/VG10 mostly from battleship-thick supermarket-grade damascus, I would *intuitively* and probably mistakenly associate VG10 with sturdiness and resilience


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## cadberry (Aug 5, 2016)

I have made myself a set of steak knives out of aeb-l and I also have a lovely little paring knife made out of 1095. All of them are great cutters. I treasure the parer a little more for some reason. As it forms its patina it seems loved, while the stainless ones are a bit sterile. That being said I intend to make more knives of out 1095 and aeb-l.


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## havox07 (Aug 5, 2016)

My ginga is a white 2 monosteel. Absolutely love how it sharpens and now that it has gotten a patina it reacts to nothing. Meanwhile my Tanaka which has soft steel cladding is reactive no matter what I do to it. Point is some carbon is actually pretty great on that front  have an aebl dalman on order so will have to see how pure stainless turns out.


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