# Knife Recommendation - Dishwasher Safe and Sharpened by Electronic Sharpener



## RubbishCook (Jun 11, 2021)

I want a nice set of knives for a second home. I want them to be dishwasher safe and work well with an electronic sharpener like a chefs choice (if someone has recommendation for the sharpener I would be curious too).

I am considering Forschner, Opinel Intempora, and GÜDE Kappa. Are there others I should look at that will take well to electronic sharpening and be dishwasher safe?

I am in the USA. I would like to spend $600 or less on 2-3 knives. I really just need a chefs knife and a pairing knife.


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## chefwp (Jun 11, 2021)

I don't think you could go wrong with these!


https://www.jcpenney.com/p/cuisinart-advantage-12-pc-colored-knife-set/ppr5007204692?pTmplType=regular


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## tostadas (Jun 12, 2021)

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Online shopping for Kitchen Knives & Accessories from a great selection of Cutlery Sets, Specialty Knives, Sharpeners, Cutting Boards, & more at everyday low prices.



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## Dominick Maone (Jun 12, 2021)

Get a Wustof set. I think most people will think your question is a joke.


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## Delat (Jun 12, 2021)

People are teasing you because this is a knife forum for enthusiasts, but honestly your request is representative of 99.9% of normal people. People on this forum are not normal 

Probably just grab one of these sets. Avoid ones with full bolster as the bolster won’t go through the sharpening slots of your electric sharpener. Chef’s Choice electric sharpeners are good representatives of the species.









5 Best Knife Block Sets, According to Food Network Kitchen


These are the knife sets that make the cut for home cooks.




www.foodnetwork.com












The best kitchen knife sets of 2021 | CNN Underscored


Over several weeks, we put the 11 top-rated knife sets to the test. We chopped. We diced. We sliced. We minced. We trimmed. We peeled. We cored. In the end, we came up with three winners any home chef would find to be — er — a cut above the rest.




www.cnn.com


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## tostadas (Jun 12, 2021)

I wasnt sure if this was a serious post. If so, I'd recommend get a set of Victorinox knives in whatever size/type you need. They are the best value for the money.


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## btbyrd (Jun 12, 2021)

+1 Victorinox.


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## Delat (Jun 12, 2021)

tostadas said:


> I wasnt sure if this was a serious post. If so, I'd recommend get a set of Victorinox knives in whatever size/type you need. They are the best value for the money.



I was thinking that for a 2nd home he might be renting it out (e.g. airbnb) or maybe have random relatives using it, so he doesn’t know how the knives will be treated. I’d get a cheapo knock-around set (like Victorinox) myself under those circumstances, and maybe hide a JCK Natures or Gesshin stainless in the back of a cupboard for myself.


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## RubbishCook (Jun 12, 2021)

I just want knives that I will enjoy using and wont need to worry about. I'll get some of the Victorinox. I guess they dont call them Forschner anymore. Thanks for your help.


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## ModRQC (Jun 12, 2021)

RubbishCook said:


> I just want knives that I will enjoy using and wont need to worry about. I'll get some of the Victorinox. I guess they dont call them Forschner anymore. Thanks for your help.



Fibrox. Or if necessary to splurge uselessly, the Grand Maitre. Just don't bring anything Rosewood or Swiss Modern or whatever they call that middle of the road line. Handles won't take kindly at all to the dishwasher.


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## Mikeltee (Jun 12, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> Get a Wustof set. I think most people will think your question is a joke.


Yep I was thinking it's a little late for April Fools.


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## inferno (Jun 12, 2021)

RubbishCook said:


> I want a nice set of knives for a second home. I want them to be dishwasher safe and work well with an electronic sharpener like a chefs choice (if someone has recommendation for the sharpener I would be curious too).
> 
> I am considering Forschner, Opinel Intempora, and GÜDE Kappa. Are there others I should look at that will take well to electronic sharpening and be dishwasher safe?
> 
> I am in the USA. I would like to spend $600 or less on 2-3 knives. I really just need a chefs knife and a pairing knife.



probably all germans without wood handles are dishwasher safe. they all use the krupp 1.4116 steel or sandvik 12c27m. and these steels were developed especially to be dishwasher safe. its not good for the edges though.

also fiskars has a line called "norr" and it uses a wood based material called kebony and i think this this _might_ be dishwasher safe too.


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## Qapla' (Jun 12, 2021)

I'm guessing some of the all-metal knives are also a choice here.


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## GorillaGrunt (Jun 12, 2021)

With these criteria I’d look at the kind of stuff that are house knives in pro kitchens rather than knives marketed to home cooks, so +1 Victorinox/Forschner and also Dexter. Not Mercer though


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## RubbishCook (Jun 13, 2021)

GorillaGrunt said:


> With these criteria I’d look at the kind of stuff that are house knives in pro kitchens rather than knives marketed to home cooks, so +1 Victorinox/Forschner and also Dexter. Not Mercer though


This is what I was looking for since I know a lot of members are professional chefs and was curious what they enjoyed using other than their $1,000 knives they use at home. I have not heard of Dexter. I will take a look.


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## M1k3 (Jun 13, 2021)

Victorinox Fibrox, followed by pretty much anything labeled NSF, probably has a white handle. Dexter, Update, Winco are a few examples.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 13, 2021)

I think Global knives are dishwasher safe. I gifted a set to a friend a couple of years ago and they are very happy with it. Globals could be chippy if you use them like using Wustof though.


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## GorillaGrunt (Jun 13, 2021)

Oh a lot of us use our good knives at work, but there have to be knives around for the cooks who aren’t also knife hobbyists to use. Funnily enough that is about my cutoff - I’ll bring a knife up to $1000 into a working kitchen but I dunno about more than that, and also I don’t know that I’m getting any more practical performance above that price point. Everyone has their own boundaries on those two questions though.


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## coxhaus (Jun 13, 2021)

I use a Worksharp Ken Oinion tool and knife sharpener for my kitchen knives. I can sharpen my knives very quickly. I have around 30 kitchen knives. Most are Henckels 4star and 5star knives with maybe 6 or 8 classic Wustof knives. A lot of my Henckels knives are 50 years old as they were my mom's. Recently I have been buying Classic Wustof knives. I have really not noticed much difference in my use. I had a lower end Henckels once and it would not hold an edge so I would only buy the 4-star versions. I am not interested in manually sharpening knives with stones. I don't want any knife that will chip as I cannot guarantee who will end up using my knives. We have parties and there may be 4 or 5 people using knives.

Ken Onion Edition Knife & Tool Sharpener - Work Sharp Sharpeners (worksharptools.com)


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## dough (Jun 14, 2021)

RubbishCook said:


> This is what I was looking for since I know a lot of members are professional chefs and was curious what they enjoyed using other than their $1,000 knives they use at home. I have not heard of Dexter. I will take a look.



Wait are you saying people aren’t using their tools at work.... that’s blasphemy. I personally buy the knives only for the boxes.
Not long ago I worked with a guy who sported a well loved Kramer but that’s the only one I ever saw in the wild.
Also the guy having knife parties with 4-5 random people using knives sounds like a great party.
Your budget of $600 for 2 or 3 knives is pretty high you can get a lot of knife for that. For the knife you are talking about I just look for stuff on sale. A used older knife sub $100 would be what I looked to get probably something in aus-8 or vg1. The guys above already covered a lot of easy options. The miyabi knives aren’t bad if you can get them on sale or shun. Those might be a step up from what you were looking at but if on sale they are nice albeit a little hard for a pull through sharpener


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## WaTFTanaki (Jun 14, 2021)

Which leads to the question, ignoring the handle issue—why do dishwashers dull blades? 

And secondly since the water shoots up, if you put your cutting edge up, rather than down, so that water and soap friction that might dull edge when facing down, would it still dull or even sharpen the edge?


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## Benuser (Jun 14, 2021)

Microcorrosion, yes, even with stainless. Leave a stainless edge, fresh from the stones, dirty overnight — tomato sauce is especially effective — and see the difference. Machine detergents are quite aggressive.


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## Jovidah (Jun 14, 2021)

^
The thing to keep in mind that stainless is stain-less, not stain-never. That's also why stuff like diving knives is made of different materials than your kitchen stuff (you see a lot of titanium for example).


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## M1k3 (Jun 14, 2021)

Not to mention being bumped around also.


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## PineWood (Jun 17, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I think Global knives are dishwasher safe. I gifted a set to a friend a couple of years ago and they are very happy with it. Globals could be chippy if you use them like using Wustof though.


A good friend has a set of Globals that he uses/abuses intensely. He has always put them in the dishwasher. After a few years rust develops in the area where the handle is welded to the blade (they look like a "one-piece" design but they are actually welded together). So it's not a good idea to put them in the dishwasher.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 17, 2021)

PineWood said:


> A good friend has a set of Globals that he uses/abuses intensely. He has always put them in the dishwasher. After a few years rust develops in the area where the handle is welded to the blade (they look like a "one-piece" design but they are actually welded together). So it's not a good idea to put them in the dishwasher.


Good to know. I use a Global bread knife which I did put into dishwasher for several times, but I don’t use it frequently so it hasn’t developed rust. Now I know better. Thanks,


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## Boynutman (Jun 17, 2021)

Not an expert in this area, but maybe spend some of that budget on a decent electric sharpener?
Just so the knife isn't eaten alive.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 18, 2021)

RubbishCook said:


> I want a nice set of knives for a second home. I want them to be dishwasher safe and work well with an electronic sharpener like a chefs choice (if someone has recommendation for the sharpener I would be curious too).
> 
> I am considering Forschner, Opinel Intempora, and GÜDE Kappa. Are there others I should look at that will take well to electronic sharpening and be dishwasher safe?
> 
> I am in the USA. I would like to spend $600 or less on 2-3 knives. I really just need a chefs knife and a pairing knife.



Get yourself a few Victorinox and you'll be amazed at the dollar cost vs performance factor. A good honing rod is a necessity with these knives, and they're a breeze to maintain. Personally, I prefer the Rosewood series for the warmth in hand, as well as comfort. It only takes seconds to hand-wash a knife, so, why not??
If you MUST use the dishwasher, then the Fibrox series is the way to go.

Regarding specific choices, I'd recommend the Vic paring knife, and the 6" utility is a MUST!!!!!. I can pretty well guarantee that this will be your most used knife. As for a chef knife, I'd go with a decent 10" blade over the 8" model. That'll depend of course on your personal needs, and the number of people you're cooking for.

Regarding a bread knife, go with the 10" Mercer Millenia......... and,,,, that knife will easily do double duty as a slicer/carver. You'll be shocked at how sharp that knife is straight out of the box. The Santoprene handle is VERY grippy, even when wet, and VERY comfortable to use.

Get yourself a 10" or 12" Idahone "fine" ceramic honing rod, and you probably won't need to re-sharpen for a surprisingly long time. My most frequently used knife is a Vic 6" utility knife which I bought in November, 2018. That knife has yet to require sharpening, and I easily cut see-through tomato slices, etc. A quick touch-up with my steel or my fine ceramic rod, is all that's been required so far. (2 yrs and 7 mo. and still going strong)

If you MUST get an electric sharpener,,,,, the Chef-Choice TriZor is a very good unit. I've got one, but I never need to use it, other than sharpening friends' knives when they bring really cheap and very damaged knives.

I've got roughly 20-25 knives,,, Vic's,, Zwilling Pro "S" and Zwilling Pro, as well as Wusthof Classic and Ikon,. as well as Shun, MAC, and Miyabi Japanese knives. I never forget what great value the Vic's represent. I've got more sharpening gear,,,,stones, etc, than I'll ever need or use; Tormek 10",,,Chef's Choice TriZor,, a bunch (7 or 8) Shapton Glass stones, Naniwa Green Brick of Joy, ,,, 4-stone Norton set, etc. Strops,,, micro-abrasive sheets,,,, stone flatteners,,, you name it,,,, yet I only need a touch-up with my Zwilling steel or my Idahone honing rod for my Vic's (so far)

Good luck


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## coxhaus (Jun 18, 2021)

Bobby2shots said:


> Get yourself a few Victorinox and you'll be amazed at the dollar cost vs performance factor. A good honing rod is a necessity with these knives, and they're a breeze to maintain. Personally, I prefer the Rosewood series for the warmth in hand, as well as comfort. It only takes seconds to hand-wash a knife, so, why not??
> If you MUST use the dishwasher, then the Fibrox series is the way to go.
> 
> Regarding specific choices, I'd recommend the Vic paring knife, and the 6" utility is a MUST!!!!!. I can pretty well guarantee that this will be your most used knife. As for a chef knife, I'd go with a decent 10" blade over the 8" model. That'll depend of course on your personal needs, and the number of people you're cooking for.
> ...



Would you mind showing me a picture of one of the Victorinox's knives which are better than the Henckels 4star and Wusthof Classic knives? I would like to buy one and try it out against my Henckels 4star and Wusthof Classic knives. I assume they are cheaper. I use a Worksharp Ken Oinion tool and knife sharpener which works for me. Makes sharpening knives real easy. I sharpen at 15 degrees. It seems to work well with my current knives. I have not had any chips.

I need to buy one I can try to get my wife to use so it needs to be smaller. I will use for a while and then try to pass it over to her. If not, I will give it away.

I did this 20 years ago and the red handled Victorinox would not hold an edge like my current knives. I had to sharpen it more.


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## Jovidah (Jun 18, 2021)

I think part of the reason your experience with stuff like Henckels/Zwilling is better than most is exactly because your knives are older. I'm not an expert on this, but it always seems like the further back you go, the better German knives are. Largely because they were still done by hand and ground much thinner behind the edge. These days it's all done by robots and comes out fat & flat, giving you the worst of both worlds: fat knives with crap food release. Sure, they're indestructible, but cutting performance is really underwhelming. The full size bolsters don't help either, but at least most of the brands have at least started a few lines that only have a half-bolster.


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## coxhaus (Jun 18, 2021)

I just bought an older Henckels like my mom's off eBay for $17.50. No one bid on it. It is a 10-inch Henckels 4star Chefs knife. I don't have it, hopefully Monday. I will post a picture. I don't really need a second one but I was looking and it was there.

And the Henckels 10" chefs knife is my favorite.
'


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 18, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Would you mind showing me a picture of one of the Victorinox's knives which are better than the Henckels 4star and Wusthof Classic knives? I would like to buy one and try it out against my Henckels 4star and Wusthof Classic knives. I assume they are cheaper. I use a Worksharp Ken Oinion tool and knife sharpener which works for me. Makes sharpening knives real easy. I sharpen at 15 degrees. It seems to work well with my current knives. I have not had any chips.
> 
> I need to buy one I can try to get my wife to use so it needs to be smaller. I will use for a while and then try to pass it over to her. If not, I will give it away.
> 
> I did this 20 years ago and the red handled Victorinox would not hold an edge like my current knives. I had to sharpen it more.



Hi Coxhaus,

Just to be clear, I did not say that the Vic's were "better",,,,,, I have a bunch of Wusthof Classics and Classic Ikons, plus Zwilling Pro "S" (which I bought 40 years ago) and a few of the newer Zwilling Pro and they're all good knives,,, well constructed,,, durable, etc. What I like about the Vic's is just how easy they are to maintain.

If you want to buy a Vic just to try one, I'd highly recommend what I think is the most versatile knife they sell in the Rosewood series, and that would be the 6" utility knife. I use this knife at the very least 4-5 times a day, and I keep it razor sharp with a few swipes from my Zwilling steel and/or my Idahone "fine" ceramic honing rod. That said; you have to know how to assess your knifes' condition, and how to "sneak up" on a great edge, such that you're getting "bite" in both directions when you very lightly drag your thumb *across* the blade,,,left to right,,,, and right to left,,, the "bite" should be the same in either direction.

When I make a tomato sandwich for example, I like to use 7-8 very thin slices. Before cutting those slices, I like to make light *vertical* incisions all around the entire tomato, and with my Vic, I can quite literally hold the handle between my thumb and index finger,,,,, applying virtually no pressure,,, drag the tip of the knife along the skin, and the knife eases through the skins with no problem whatsoever. Then, I cut my thin horizontal slices. I do the vertical cuts in order to prevent a tomato slice from pulling out of a sandwich as you bite and pull away. That tomato slice is far easier to chew.

Now, I wouldn't classify that particular model as a "chopper",,, It's not specifically designed for that. The edge is softer, and it doesn't provide the typical height at the heel that you'd ordinarily want in a "chopper". That said, it works fine as a chopper if you work at the edge of your cutting board, or, kitchen counter. (for knuckle clearance). If you're prepping veggies in smaller portions, it's fine. Where that particular Vic shines, is as a slicer/carver. You can steer the knife in the cut far better than you could with a knife that has a taller heel. Encountering bone is not an issue, and that's where the softer steel shines. You simply will not chip this blade,,,,,. It handles roughly as well as a dedicated boning knife.

Pricewise, I believe I paid roughly $43. Canadian for that knife in 2018. Here we are 2 years and 7 months later, and I have yet to take it to my stones for sharpening because it's so easy to hone to razor sharpness. I store all my knives in an in-drawer knife rack from Victorinox, and I hand-wash exclusively.


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## coxhaus (Jun 18, 2021)

Ok, I think we are on the same page about the Vic's.

I have no problem slicing tomatoes. In fact, today we made BLTs and I sliced our garden tomatoes. We only eat BLTs this time of year as I want home grown tomatoes. If one of my knives won't easily slice a tomato, I will sharpen it using my Worksharp Ken Oinion tool and knife sharpener. It takes less than 5 minutes to sharpen 1 knife. It takes longer to get it out than to sharpen the knife.

My wife has strange ideas for knifes in my opinion as she likes small knives for everything except slicing watermelons or other really big items. I hate to see her chopping with a paring knife. It is so slow. I got her past that into a 5inch knife now. I might look at a MAC knife for her since they are thinner and lighter and see if she likes it. The Vic was just a fast thought.

I don't know If I can sharpen a MAC knife with Worksharp Ken Oinion tool and knife sharpener which is kind of my hold back. I am not going to buy water stones to sharpen knives.


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## Ericfg (Jun 18, 2021)

OP, are you the same that posted a very similar question at 'chefknives' on reddit recently? If so, or even not "if so", those replies and downvotes to your question are shameful. Why I keep going back there is a question I have no good answer for.

If you wanna buy cheap knives and run 'em through a dishwasher just do it! We here don't do that stuff normally and sadly some get offended by that and lash out. But it's all good.


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## Jovidah (Jun 18, 2021)

Ericfg said:


> If you wanna buy cheap knives and run 'em through a dishwasher just do it! We here don't do that stuff normally and sadly some get offended by that and lash out. But it's all good.


Maybe they rather have him run expensive knives through a dishwasher?


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## coxhaus (Jun 19, 2021)

Ok so I received my knife today that I bought for $17.50. It is an old Heckels 10-inch chef's knife. The knife was so dull I could mash my thumb on it. I had to run a few passes on it of the Worksharp Ken Onion knife sharpener. I have been drinking wine as the knife came very late in the day. But here is a picture. I will sharpen better tomorrow. This is an old Henckels 4star.


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## Ericfg (Jun 19, 2021)

I have that exact same knife that I bought new approaching 40 years ago. Granted I haven't used it much in the last 5-10 years but before that it was a workhorse, and got a lot of abuse as well.

Still in great shape and keeps a good, if not great, edge.


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## coxhaus (Jun 19, 2021)

It is my favorite of my Henckels knives. I already have one. I am not sure why I bought a second one. It must be the knife nut in me.


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## coxhaus (Jun 20, 2021)

OK I used a fine grade belt on my Henckels 4star 10-inch knife above. It slices tomatoes thin by pulling across it. I am sure it does not match some of the custom knives on this site but it works for me.

This knife was real dull when I received it. I could mash my thumb on the edge and not cut myself. I would not dare do that now.

PS. I don't use a steel any more as it is just as fast for me to make 1 pass with the Worksharp Ken Oinion sharpener as to steel. But I get a couple of months out of my knives before I have to touch it up again.


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## coxhaus (Jun 21, 2021)

To me a Victorinox knife is not in the same class as a Henckels 4star or 5star knife.


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## tostadas (Jun 21, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> To me a Victorinox knife is not in the same class as a Henckels 4star or 5star knife.


I respectfully disagree there. I have owned both for over 10 years. Both steels are on the softer side for knives, and I don't find that one's edge outlasts the other's in any significant way. The henckels has a very thick grind and is extremely handle heavy in my experience. Mine is kept only for avocado duty. I suppose if you do a lot of rock chopping, then this could potentially lean in favor of the henckels. But otherwise, I generally find myself reaching for the Victorinox instead of the Henckels.


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## coxhaus (Jun 21, 2021)

To each his own. I have used Henckels 4star knives all my life. There is a reason Henckels were on top back in the 60's and 70's. Victorinox's knives never have been and never will be on top.

And just to be clear I think the same thing about Wusthof Classics knives and Victorinox knives. Victorinox is out classed.

I have bought 8 or so Wusthof Classics knives and I think they are in fine company with Henckels 4star and 5star knives. When I use one of my knives I don't think about brand but what knife is the right knife for my task.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 21, 2021)

tostadas said:


> I respectfully disagree there. I have owned both for over 10 years. Both steels are on the softer side for knives, and I don't find that one's edge outlasts the other's in any significant way. The henckels has a very thick grind and is extremely handle heavy in my experience. Mine is kept only for avocado duty. I suppose if you do a lot of rock chopping, then this could potentially lean in favor of the henckels. But otherwise, I generally find myself reaching for the Victorinox instead of the Henckels.



My experience has been similar. I've owned my Zwilling Pro S knives for over 40 years, and I find myself reaching for my Victorinox knives 99% of the time. Mind you, a lot of that depends on what task I need to perform, and the type (profile) of knife best suited to that particular task. My Vic's are much thinner than my Pro S, and wayyyyyy quicker to bring an edge back. They're also lighter and more nimble. I don't regard one brand as being "better" than the other ,,,, they're just "different". I gotta admit though, I get a kick out of the fact that the Vic's perform so well considering the cost.

After I had retired, I took on a part-time job in a 5-star hotel, and the Chef there used Victorinox exclusively. I figured if they're good enough for him, they're more than good enough for me.


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## coxhaus (Jun 21, 2021)

It takes me minutes to sharpen a Henckels knife. I have 30 kitchen knives in my 2 knife blocks and none of them are dull. They all get sharpened when needed. Back in the old days when I used stones half my knives were dull at any one time. It took too long to sharpen by stone. I never could catch up. It could have been me as I don't think I was that great using stones to sharpen. That all changed when I discovered the Worksharp knife sharpener.

I do have a Wusthof sushi knife which I am not sure how to sharpen. But I only use it for fish so it stays sharp.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 21, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I do have a Wusthof sushi knife which I am not sure how to sharpen. But I only use it for fish so it stays sharp.



If you're referring to the Wusthof Classic 9" Yanagiba, that would be a single-bevel knife. One side is flattened. while the bevel side takes a 9 degree bevel if I remember correctly. Some people would apply a very small micro-bevel on the flat side. Those knives are used on one side only,,,, they're either right handed, or left handed knives.


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## coxhaus (Jun 21, 2021)

Yes, that would be it. I am thinking I can't use my Worksharp unless I go free hand. 

It does slice fish nice and smooth, no ragged edges.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 21, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> To each his own. I have used Henckels 4star knives all my life. There is a reason Henckels were on top back in the 60's and 70's. Victorinox's knives never have been and never will be on top.
> 
> And just to be clear I think the same thing about Wusthof Classics knives and Victorinox knives. *Victorinox is out classed.*
> 
> I have bought 8 or so Wusthof Classics knives and I think they are in fine company with Henckels 4star and 5star knives. When I use one of my knives I don't think about brand but what knife is the right knife for my task.



Actually, the industry standards for professional use (meat packing plants, etc) the big sellers there are Victorinox and Dexter-Russel, along with Mercer. Henckels, Wusthof, Zwilling, etc, are marketed more to home cooks.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 21, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Yes, that would be it. I am thinking I can't use my Worksharp unless I go free hand.
> 
> It does slice fish nice and smooth, no ragged edges.



Doesn't that Worksharp K.O. have a minimum 10 degree setting? It probably won't make any difference in the performance of the knife.


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## coxhaus (Jun 21, 2021)

Bobby2shots said:


> Actually, the industry standards for professional use (meat packing plants, etc) the big sellers there are Victorinox and Dexter-Russel, along with Mercer. Henckels, Wusthof, Zwilling, etc, are marketed more to home cooks.



I don't disagree. Work does not pay for class only function ability and cheapness.

So, I bought an 8-inch MAC PRO off eBay. I will see if I can sharpen it or not. I will try to sell it to my wife as I want her to use a bigger knife. We will see what happens.

The WS KO only goes to 15 degrees. They make an adapter for free hand. My salmon knife became dull and I used my old Worksharp knife sharpener and it only went to 20 degrees. The salmon knife did not work at 20 degrees so I bought a Wusthof sushi knife a few years ago. I since bought the Worksharp KO which goes to 15 degrees and that fixed my salmon knife.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 21, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I don't disagree. *Work does not pay for class only function ability and cheapness.*
> 
> So, I bought an 8-inch MAC PRO off eBay. I will see if I can sharpen it or not. I will try to sell it to my wife as I want her to use a bigger knife. We will see what happens.
> 
> The WS KO only goes to 15 degrees. They make an adapter for free hand.



It's not about that,,,,,,,,

In a production environment, meat is constantly moving on a production line. Workers can't ask for the line to be shut down for a few minutes, so they can go re-sharpen their knives. They need thin knives that can be re-sharpened very quickly with a burnishing rod that they carry in their hip-scabbards. A few quick swipes, and their instantly back in business. The softer steel is used specifically for that reason. They also have to satisfy NSF cleanliness standards, and survive abuse. Softer steels are not as prone to chipping as the harder steels. Handles also have to provide a safe and secure grip, whether they're wet or dry.


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## coxhaus (Jun 21, 2021)

Yes, I remember back in the 1960s when stainless was making an appearance. A lot of people were up in arms and you needed to use carbon steel not stainless. You can sharpen carbon steel much sharper. All the businesses still used carbon steel and would not change over. We had to wait for the next generation. Now I see a trend for going back to carbon steel.

Same story just different times.

I think handles on the Henckels are much more comfortable and better made than a Victorinox knife. The knife feels better also. Henckels knew they had to upgrade their game on the knives to be able to charge more money so they made a better knife. The Victorinox knife feels like a cheaper stamped knife steel to me any way.


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## tostadas (Jun 21, 2021)

Just curious. Seeing as the work sharp is basically a guided electric grinder, how do you deburr after sharpening the bevel?


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## coxhaus (Jun 21, 2021)

Not sure. I just use higher end belts. I think they have 5 or 6 levels. I put my Worksharp away already. They may sell a leather belt but I don't have one.

I bought a leather belt with green stuff right before I bought my Worksharp. I never did figure out how to use it. How do you get the angle right holding the leather?

I usually start around mid-level unless the knife is real bad. Then the number of levels depends how far you want to go. There are videos on Worksharp.

And for a touch up I only use the fine belts.

I think the Worksharp is more like a belt sander than a grinder. A big commercial belt sharpener was another option but I would have to start free hand and the belts looks like they would be a pain to change back and forth so I started with the Worksharp.


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## tostadas (Jun 21, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Not sure. I just use higher end belts. I think they have 5 or 6 levels. I put my Worksharp away already. They may sell a leather belt but I don't have one.
> 
> I bought a leather belt with green stuff right before I bought my Worksharp. I never did figure out how to use it. How do you get the angle right holding the leather?
> 
> ...


Yea belt sander that's what I meant. I don't know how effectively you can deburr on one. I typically do edge leading passes on a stone. For deburr on leather I usually use the same angle as when I sharpen, so it's more by muscle memory than exact angle number.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 22, 2021)

My biggest concern with a dry-belt sander, would be with over-heating the blade edge.


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## coxhaus (Jun 22, 2021)

Bobby2shots said:


> My biggest concern with a dry-belt sander, would be with over-heating the blade edge.



That is not a concern using a Worksharp Ken Oinion. Watch the videos. With a professional knife sharpening maybe if you are not smart. With a grinding system yes, I agree. I have a bench grinder in my shop and you can over heat metal. I would never sharpen a knife on my bench grinder. The heat is not built up on a small belt system like a grinding stone.


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## Jason183 (Jun 22, 2021)

Those V shaped sharpening tools can only make your knife sharp but doesn’t help maintain your overall geometry in the long term, essentially your knife going to get thicker BTE overtime, only way to improve it’s performance is by thinning on stones or flat surface grinder, otherwise it will be a wedging monsters in the future.


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## coxhaus (Jun 22, 2021)

I think I will pass on the stones. Some of my knives are 50 years old. I don't think I will need to worry about the next 50 years as I am too old.


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## dafox (Jun 22, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I think I will pass on the stones. Some of my knives are 50 years old. I don't think I will need to worry about the next 50 years as I am too old.


Never too old


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## coxhaus (Jun 23, 2021)

Here is another picture of cutting tomatoes. It is not just 1 of my knives as all my knives cut tomatoes. Here is a Wusthof Classic.
This is straight out of the knife block no sharpening as I put away my WS KO sharpener a couple of days ago. I don't know when I sharpen this last. It has been months.


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## Jovidah (Jun 23, 2021)

Honestly I think Wüsthof, Zwilling and Victorinox all play in the same league of 'more sturdy, durable, abuse-proof knives'. They'll all take more of a beating than more higher-end stuff, but that's really the one thing they excel at. Yeah sure, the Victorinox has cheaper handles, but it's only half the cost. And frankly the plastic handles on Wüsthof and Zwilling are still just that; plastic handles.... even compared to the most basic entry-level pakkawood handles they still feel like a cheaper alternative. That's also the main issue with Wüsthof and Zwilling IMO; they play in a significantly higher price category, so unless you can get a really good deal on them they are playing in a league where significantly better cutting knives are to be had. Of course that also depends on your method of maintenance, so if all you're going to do is toss them through a dishwasher and run them through an electronic sharpener I'd just go for the cheapest option. 

When it comes to who's 'on top'. I don't think Victorinox is hurting for business... I wouldn't be surprised if they're the most used knives in professional kitchens. Although admittedly that doesn't necessarily say they're better; professional businesses tend to favor 'bang for the buck', not necessarily 'highest quality'. But even Zwilling themselves have basically admitted that their older German style lines are not the be-all and end-all of knives... they've come out with a lot more stuff in the last few years that's very different from their traditional offerings, think of for example all the Miyabi and Bob Kramer stuff. Both Zwilling and Wüsthof have also released cheaper lines (stamped, plastic handle) to compete with Victorinox.

I think the idea that Wüsthof and Zwilling are higher quality largely comes from them being heavier, thus making them at least feel sturdier. That's good for an axe, but not necessarily relevant to kitchen knives in my opinion. Just like it only 'helps' cutting performance because they only need that help because they're too thick behind the edge to begin with. A thinner knife (especially thinner behind the edge) will just cut with far less pressure.


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## coxhaus (Jun 23, 2021)

I like the old German knives. I grew up with them and I know how to use them. They make me happy.

I have a MAC PRO coming. I will see how it sharpens and what I think of it. It really is for my wife to see if she will use it. I have no plans to move to a stone setup. I still have lots of old stones around that I don't use.

I have had one of the cheap Henckels and I did not like it as I gave it away. 4star is the way to go.


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## coxhaus (Jun 24, 2021)

I just looked on Worksharp's web site and they have cloth belts for stropping for the Ken Onion sharpener. I may have buy some.


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## coxhaus (Jun 25, 2021)

I came across this which supports my view on which knives are better.

Wusthof vs. Victorinox (Kitchen Knives Compared) - Prudent Reviews


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## Jovidah (Jun 25, 2021)

That just looks like one of the many fake review sites on the internet filled with generic -male bovine excrement- marketing talk that's only just meant to make money off the amazon referals. You'll find more truth in political ads...


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## choochoochop (Jun 25, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I came across this which supports my view on which knives are better.
> 
> Wusthof vs. Victorinox (Kitchen Knives Compared) - Prudent Reviews


We get it... you use a work sharp, and German knives are the best. I don't think anyone is going to convince you otherwise at this point.

I like how people in these reviews fixate on "forged" vs "stamped", suggesting that forged is better. Here is a video from the Wusthof youtube channel showing the making of their knives, and also a similar Henckels one. Their knives are cut from a sheet, and the bolster is "forged" onto it with a machine. All these blades from mass produced knife companies are basically cut from sheets, not hand forged with an anvil or anything of the sort. So to say that a "forged" knife from any of these companies is better, or even different for that matter, from a "stamped" one from another company is just clever marketing.


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## Jovidah (Jun 25, 2021)

Honestly I think calling that a 'review' is overstating what it is. I don't think they even bought a Victorinox knife. Just skimming through it that's not the only problem with the article; there's a whole bunch of... more commonly repeated myths and half-truths in it. But in the end it's all just fluff to make money off Amazon referals. I've seen more and more of these fake review sites popping up in the last few years, and most of the time it seems like they didnt even buy or own the 'reviewed' products.


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## coxhaus (Jun 25, 2021)

Is this how it was done 50 years ago?


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## Jovidah (Jun 25, 2021)

By the way don't get me wrong... I'm not saying Wüsthof or Zwilling (especially with Zwilling it's hard to make general statements since they've introduced so much more lines in the last few years, many with fancier steels, some made in Japan, etc) is worse than Victorinox, or total crap, I just don't think they're particularly better. I think that's probably what most of us here are trying to say.
They might look nicer, and if that's worth money to you, fine... I just don't think they really perform any better. Definitly nothing worth paying twice as much in my eyes. They're all in this same... abuse-proof, sturdy, cheapish beater-knife category. Argueing about edge retention or cutting performance between these is a bit like talking argueing over which terrain vehicle is the best race car.

The awkward spot the more expensive German knives find them in is that, unless you get them at a great deal, they start playing in a price category where there's plenty of other knives to be found that cut significantly better - though you might trade in some durability.


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## tostadas (Jun 25, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Is this how it was done 50 years ago?


I think they had one guy in the factory pounding out hundreds of thousands of them a year with a hammer and anvil and hand grinding them on a water wheel. Similar to how cars were made in the 70s... before the era of machines and automation.

All kidding aside, if you want a "forged" metal bolster and steel you can freely abuse, then get a Wusthof or Henckels and be happy. But arguing the quality of their blades vs other mass produced knives is kinda pointless.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 25, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> By the way don't get me wrong... I'm not saying Wüsthof or Zwilling (especially with Zwilling it's hard to make general statements since they've introduced so much more lines in the last few years, many with fancier steels, some made in Japan, etc) is worse than Victorinox, or total crap, I just don't think they're particularly better. I think that's probably what most of us here are trying to say.
> They might look nicer, and if that's worth money to you, fine... I just don't think they really perform any better. Definitly nothing worth paying twice as much in my eyes. They're all in this same... abuse-proof, sturdy, cheapish beater-knife category. Argueing about edge retention or cutting performance between these is a bit like talking argueing over which terrain vehicle is the best race car.
> 
> The awkward spot the more expensive German knives find them in is that, unless you get them at a great deal, they start playing in a price category where there's plenty of other knives to be found that cut significantly better - though you might trade in some durability.


Actually at least for 8 inch chefs knife, I’ve used, sharpened and handled many different Zwillings (made in German ones) and Wusthofs and I do think Victorinox Fibrox is a better knife. I would choose Vic even if the zwillings/wusthofs are as cheap. Victorinox is nimble and well balanced and it has a slightly convex grind that works well. It’s not super thin behind the edge but still thinner than zwillings and wusthofs. And due to the convexity at the edge (the way the edge was created) and being thinner BTE, it actually cuts better than Zwillings and Wusthofs and it’s still very tough. The only made in German Zwilling I’ve handled that cuts well is a santoku that has a thinner grind overall.


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## Jovidah (Jun 25, 2021)

Yeah that's fair. I think it's more a matter of nuance than really drastic differences though; my point is that it's not like comparing a Fiat to a Ferrari, more comparing a Volkswagen to an Opel. Personaly I'm not a fan of the butt-heavy balance and the Wusthofs in the shorter lengths have a ridiculous amount of belly, but I'm willing to concede that that's more 'personal preference'-territory.


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## coxhaus (Jun 26, 2021)

I have a Henckels 4star santoku which I thought I would like but it turns out it feels like I am dragging the tip around. I much prefer a Henckels 4star chefs knife. And 10-inch is my favorite. An 8-inch just seems lacking. I have a 9-inch Henckels 4star which works but I like the 10-inch better. I also have a 11.5-inch Henckels 4star which gets a little big but it does big jobs well. I also have the Henckels 6-inch 4star chefs which I don't think too much of. For a 6 -inch Henckels I prefer one of the other Henckels not the chef knife version. I have them all in my knife blocks. My 11.5-inch is not in the picture. This was a picture I posted for another thread.

And no way I would trade any of my Henckels 4stars for any Victorinox knife.


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## DitmasPork (Jun 26, 2021)

RubbishCook said:


> I want a nice set of knives for a second home. I want them to be dishwasher safe and work well with an electronic sharpener like a chefs choice (if someone has recommendation for the sharpener I would be curious too).
> 
> I am considering Forschner, Opinel Intempora, and GÜDE Kappa. Are there others I should look at that will take well to electronic sharpening and be dishwasher safe?
> 
> I am in the USA. I would like to spend $600 or less on 2-3 knives. I really just need a chefs knife and a pairing knife.












The Best Dishwasher-Safe Chef’s Knives for Easy Clean Up


Four dishwasher-safe blades that are a breeze to clean.




robbreport.com




Full disclosure: I don't have a dishwasher—so have never owned or wanted any of the recommended knives in the article.


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## Noodle Soup (Jun 26, 2021)

Bobby2shots said:


> Actually, the industry standards for professional use (meat packing plants, etc) the big sellers there are Victorinox and Dexter-Russel, along with Mercer. Henckels, Wusthof, Zwilling, etc, are marketed more to home cooks.


A long time ago when i was trying to make a living selling knives to pros, I noticed everyone was selling Victorinox. So I decided to sell an alternative, F. Dick, Dexter, the old Swedish Frosts and some others. The problem was all the pros wanted Victorinox and they wanted them cheap. I wasn't able to buy them at the price a certain supplier in KC was selling them at. My business model failed but I learned to respect Victorinox knives.


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## coxhaus (Jun 26, 2021)

I have no problem with them being a cheap knife that works. They are just not equal to a Wusthof Classic or Henckels 4star knife which cost more. I much prefer the Henckels or Wusthof knife and I will pay more. I bought a Victorinox knife 20 years ago to try out so I really have used one.

If you compare a cheap JA Henckels China made one then yes, I would prefer a Victorinox knife. The cheap Henckels are no good but the Henckels 4star are very nice knives. Henckels kind of trashed their name making that cheap stuff. I guess they made a lot of money selling on their name but now a lot people's impression is that Henckels are cheap which is not all true. Henckels built their fine name on their 4star knives back in the 1960s and 1970s. So, there are a lot of nice Henckels 4star knives on eBay for cheap money waiting to be picked up.


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## coxhaus (Jun 27, 2021)

I ordered a leather stropping belt for my WSKO. I want to see if it makes a difference. It may just be an extra step. I want to sharpen as fast as possible with the least number of steps so it needs to help for me to use it. Sorry but I don't like sharpening I just like a sharp knife for cutting.


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## Woshigeren (Jun 27, 2021)

I have a Norpro Kleve series knife. For $20 it meets your dishwasher requirements and has been super reliable, even though I rarely reach for it.


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## Woshigeren (Jun 27, 2021)

Here is the Norpro Kleve in action. I dare say that some of my $300+ Japanese knives perform just as well for most usage cases...


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## William Hunt (Jun 27, 2021)

I’m curious. Do you sharpen the tip of your knives with the work sharp? Do you have rounded tips? I’m not trying to be negative, it’s just a problem that I had whenever I tried to use one. I still had to sharpen the tip on a stone.


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## coxhaus (Jun 27, 2021)

Using a WS you cannot draw the tip across the whole belt. It is a practiced procedure you need to learn. There is learning with all sharpening and the Worksharp is no different. It is just much faster and the more you use it the better you get.

In the real old days with Henckels 4star knives you could get wood handles. I bet that went away 30 or more years ago. I have 1 or 2. They are not dishwasher safe not that I put my knives in the dishwasher any way.


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## William Hunt (Jun 27, 2021)

I had the original version. The belt was only a half inch wide so pulling the tip off in the middle of the belt was nearly impossible. I never tried to sharpen a decent knife on the WS but it seemed to work well for Dexter Russell knives. The price of the belts caused me to stop using it.


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## coxhaus (Jun 27, 2021)

Yes, I have one of those old sharpeners. The Ken Onion version is much better with wider belts. I have to say I learned not to round tips on that old sharpener because that is all I had at first. The price for the belts does not seem that bad to me, you get 100 sharpening out of a belt. And the time it saves you sharpening more than pays for the belts. I can do 4 or 5 knives in 10 minutes, maybe more if I don't change belts a lot. If I don't change belts, I bet I could do 15 knives. I just get tired after a while as I don't like sharpening. So, I limit how much I sharpen.

The Worksharp belts I guess are about $3 a belt. I probably spend less than $15 a year for belts. Other brands are cheaper. I have thought about the diamond belts as they will last longer but I don't really spend that much on belts per year.

You guys are making me up my game on sharpening and I don't like sharpening. As long as I have a sharp knife in the kitchen, I am happy. I don't need crazy sharp.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jun 27, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I don't need crazy sharp.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 28, 2021)

Woshigeren said:


> Here is the Norpro Kleve in action. I dare say that some of my $300+ Japanese knives perform just as well for most usage cases...



Obviously it wasn't that guy's first rodeo. Nice work.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 28, 2021)

$1. knife on 30k grit stone


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## coxhaus (Jun 29, 2021)

So, I sharpen one of my 10-inch Henckels knives up to 6000 and I stropped it using my new leather kit for my WSKO. My other 10-inch Henckels is at 3000. I will see if I can tell a difference using it. It is more work to sharpen. I also sharpen my MAC PRO 8-inch and my 9-inch Henckels the same way and finished with stropping to take the burr off. I am using the Worksharp Ken Onion sharpener.

I want to see if they cut better and they stay sharper longer. Otherwise, I am just wasting time.


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## coxhaus (Jun 29, 2021)

I want to add the MAC PRO to the list that I think it is a better knife than a Victorinox knife also. I paid $50.88 on eBay for a used MAC PRO knife.


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## Jovidah (Jun 29, 2021)

I don't think you'd find many people disagreeing that the MAC is a better knife. But when buying new it's also a knife that's like 5 times as expensive or more... it's in a completely different pricepoint and at that point also facing very different competition.


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## Michi (Jun 29, 2021)

I just don't get the religious wars. I have a whole bunch of Wüsthof knives, and a whole bunch of Japanese ones. Guess what? All of them are capable of cutting food. Rather well, too, I might add.

There are lots of things I can do with my Wüsthofs that I wouldn't dare doing with my Japanese knives. And there are lots of things where my Japanese knives perform far better than my German ones. So what? Pick the right tool for the job and get over it.

There are chefs in Germany who use German knives. Some of them even end up with Michelin stars, despite that. Can you _believe_ it?!!! What's the world coming to?

Last time I looked, when I had bunch of guests over for a meal, I don't recall any of them congratulating me on the quality of my knives. They did mention the quality of the food though…

What's the point here? The knife, or what ends up on the table?


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## coxhaus (Jun 29, 2021)

I just felt like they were building up the Victorinox knife as this great knife which I don't see. It is a good cheap knife nowhere near as good as a Henckels 4star or Wusthof knife.

And you are right the food is what counts. This goes along with sharpening how much is enough to make good food.


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## btbyrd (Jun 29, 2021)

I don't see any religious wars in this thread. Everyone has been pretty ecumenical about the value of softer, thicker European-style knives. But what I do see is someone with very limited experience asking which Victorinox they should buy to test out, and then instead buying a beat-to-**** Mac which they then pronounce to be superior to the Vic that they didn't try.


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## Jovidah (Jun 29, 2021)

I own 5 Wüsthof knives too. They have their uses. Mostly in being abuse-proof, so you can cut frozen foot with it and rock chop chocolate without worrying. I think what most of us take issue with is them being elevated as being of superior quality.
Yes, my Wüsthof chef knife takes abuse, and I have it specificaly for that reason, and will keep it for that. But it's also a fat turd that still has no food release, a silly butt heavy balance, and a profile with more belly than most middle-aged German men. It's the worst cutting 'big knife' amongst my honestly rather humble and modest collection.

I agree that in the end the quality of knives only plays a marginal role in the quality of the food. But from that perspective there's no reason to really go beyond 10 euro IKEA knives either. The gap between those and the big brand Germans really isn't that large.


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## Jovidah (Jun 29, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I just felt like they were building up the Victorinox knife as this great knife which I don't see. It is a good cheap knife nowhere near as good as a Henckels 4star or Wusthof knife.


Both are cheap lower quality knives. The difference is that one is noticably cheaper.

Edit: it's especially within the context of this thread 'dishwasher proof and electronic sharpener', that I find the last part more relevant. If it's going to get abused like that anyway price becomes more relevant IMO. At that point I wouldn't recommend _any _nicer knife, no matter how nice, or how superior it might potentially be. No point bringing a fancy suit to a pub brawl.


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## coxhaus (Jun 29, 2021)

So be it.


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## McMan (Jun 29, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I just felt like they were building up the Victorinox knife as this great knife which I don't see. It is a good cheap knife nowhere near as good as a Henckels 4star or Wusthof knife.
> 
> And you are right the food is what counts. This goes along with sharpening how much is enough to make good food.


Have you tried a Victorinox Chef Knife?


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## coxhaus (Jun 29, 2021)

I bought an Victorinox knife a long time ago and matched it to a Henckels 4 star it was nowhere near the knife. We need to stop this as requested. I gave the Victorinox knife away after a year or so. I can afford better knives so I would not buy a Victorinox knife.


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## McMan (Jun 29, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I bought an Victorinox knife a long time ago and matched it to a Henckels 4 star it was nowhere near the knife. We need to stop this as requested. I gave the Victorinox knife away after a year or so. I can afford better knives so I would not buy a Victorinox knife.


IIRC, you had mentioned it was a Victorinox paring knife?


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## coxhaus (Jun 29, 2021)

correct.


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## btbyrd (Jun 29, 2021)




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## The Edge (Jun 29, 2021)

If you're going to buy a knife that's going into the dishwasher and being sharpened by a machine, get the cheapest thing you can find. Treating any knife like that, even nsf, will cause it to degrade over time, and you'll have to replace them sooner rather than later. Just my two cents, as I used to lease knives to professional shops that ran theirs through the dishwasher. They would break after two years, granted they were being run through he dishwasher multiple times a day. Everything at this price point will be similar in performance. And just buy a couple knives that you actually use. No use spending more money on things you won't put to use.


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## GorillaGrunt (Jun 29, 2021)

I wouldn't put a Mac in the dish machine nor would I sharpen it on a pull through for very long or you'll lose the edge stability and geometry that's most of what you're paying for.


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## Bobby2shots (Jun 29, 2021)




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## LucasFur (Jul 1, 2021)

So to sum up. Buy what ever as it’s all the same garbage if your going to electric sharpen and dishwasher.
It’s for a second house, so you got $ to burn on other blades if you dont happen to like the basic recommendations everybody is proposing. All the options are $50-$150 and they’re all machine ground.

Your on a high performance forum for professionals, who like, use, and collect race cars, and Ferrari’s and will hunt for that perfect Kato, and your here -------asking about what mini-van you should get. You’ve given up on life bro, they’re all the same. Buy a dodge grand-caravan. 

Actually a really good knife I liked was the sabatier k200 — very Japanese esque in feel, but stainless, thin and a synthetic handle. For those dishwasher/ electric sharpenings. — it’s perfect if you want more than those victorinox recommendations.


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