# TF Wabi-Sabi



## Koop

Okay, so we need another TF thread. TBH, I don't own a bona-fide Teruyasu Fujiwara knife. I have two fu-rin-ka-zan versions (nashiji) from JCK. I love the feel and performance of these knives. If you try to understand the concept of *wabi-sabi*, maybe TF starts to make some sense. You can see a flaw in the knife in the center of the bunka - looks like a stray hammer mark, but it just means hand-made to me - in no way does it affect the use of the knife. The grinds are fine, please don't try to find flaws in photos that are less than flawless in their execution.


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## btbyrd

If you try to understand the concept of fanboyism, maybe the project of trying to justify shoddy craftsmanship by grasping at straws starts to make sense. Janky handle and uneven grind on your $900 knife? Weird stray hammer mark in the middle of your blade? It can‘t be that TF has poor quality control, insufficiently skilled minions, or just doesn‘t give AF... No! It‘s just wabi sabi! Appreciate it, swine!


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## NO ChoP!

I've cut with the $900 Denka. The only thing that has cut even close is a $900 Carter; also a knife known for wabi-sabi. So the trade off is said flaws (which are apparent and true) for the possibility to finally feel the thinnest, hardest, sharpest knife one could possibly achieve.


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## tcmx3

yeah so after reading this I would like petition to add "wabi sabi" to the prohibited words list

Im not joking, this is a serious rec for the mods.


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## Corradobrit1

tcmx3 said:


> yeah so after reading this I would like petition to add "wabi sabi" to the prohibited words list
> 
> Im not joking, this is a serious rec for the mods.


So cancel culture has now infected KKF


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## tcmx3

Corradobrit1 said:


> So cancel culture has now infected KKF



Im not suggesting they ban or even infract the OP, so even if that were an actual thing (hint: it's not), it wouldnt be an accurate label.


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## big_adventure

Corradobrit1 said:


> So cancel culture has now infected KKF



I would like to propose that "cancel culture" be added to the list of banned phrases.

I'm only sort of ironic on that...


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## nyc

I wish forum members didn’t pour scorn on the enthusiasm of other members for knives made by makers they don’t appreciate or like. There will be knives and makers we like and those that we don’t. There’s a place for everyone. It makes this hobby (and KKF an interesting place to be) if we are more tolerant of differences.


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## RDalman

nyc said:


> I wish forum members didn’t pour scorn on the enthusiasm of other members for knives made by makers they don’t appreciate or like. There will be knives and makers we like and those that we don’t. There’s a place for everyone. It makes this hobby (and KKF an interesting place to be) if we are more tolerant of differences.


+1! Kkf as a whole will never agree on which is THE best knife either, because like swedish saying; taste is like the ass - split. Grats on your knives op!


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## big_adventure

KKF is a perfect place full of brilliant people. Unless of course we're talking about TFs. 

Confession: I've never even handled one, much less cut with one, and given the current market, I don't see it happening - not when I can get an insanely kickass honyaki with literally perfect F&F that cuts everything like a laser through cream cheese for the same price as a "maybe guess so" F&F knife that literally can't be a better cutter.


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## btbyrd

I have some real enthusiasm for TF and regard his knives as some of the best cutters with some of the best heat treatment available anywhere. But I cannot bring myself to get enthusiastic about obvious flaws by pretending that they're deliberate design decisions manifesting an aesthetic of imperfection.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu

this is a shittake (it's a mushroom, mods - just a mushroom)

I love my denka to bits, and I'm really not one to care about F&F since I can do that myself.

The main issues that I see people talking about with TF are functionally significant. That's not wabi sabi.

For example, if there's a hole in the bladeroad and a year of sharpening/use later I have a 1 inch patch of edge that doesn't contact the board, or when I'm unable to sharpen or thin evenly due to a warp in the blade, then yes - this "wabi-sabi" begins to be a problem. You buy a knife to use, and if you can't use it it's a bad knife.

The japanese don't wabi-sabi their way around building nuclear powerplants. Stuffs gotta work.


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## NO ChoP!

Explain Fukushima? They are literally filling buckets (well, tanks to be exact), years after. Lol.

I have read about tons of TF f&f issues. Not so much of holes and warps. Anyone to chime in with experiences?


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## Koop

The post was meant to be thought provoking - and maybe provide some explanation for the general acceptance of his knives in Japan. 

I like this quote in Wikipedia from Richard Powell, "_Wabi-sabi_ nurtures all that is authentic by acknowledging three simple realities: nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect." 

And this from a BBC show ...comically enacting a challenge from the book _Living_ _Wabi Sabi_ by Taro Gold, asking members of the public on a street in Tokyo to describe _wabi-sabi_ - the results of which showed that, just as Gold predicted, "they will likely give you a polite shrug and explain that Wabi Sabi is simply unexplainable."


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## Alder26

Knives aside, TF is the king of KKF forum topics, bar none. Nothing fires this forum up faster than TF, and for that I am thankful. I own several of his knives and enjoy them a lot, but all of them needed a lot of work.

All of his other offerings can be pretty controversial, but the 150mm petty for ~100$ still remains one of the best deals in Japanese knives. It is very likely my favorite petty still, and is such a good deal that handle replacements, thinning , straightening, etc. simply don't feel like they are too much to ask. The Maboroshi, Denka, even the larger sized nashiji's can really dance right along the line of value-effort ratio that makes you wonder if it's all worth it. . . But the petty will all ways be there. Unless they raise the price.


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## RDalman

The few TF's I've handled have been fine, but like every used san mai knife I have recieved for work- been in need of a little straightening before putting on the rocks. I believe some underestimate this, san mai knives sub 3mm thick are easy to bend, even inadvertedly. I have seen some real eyebrow-raising reports here on the forums though, so I don’t doubt they (bad grinds and really wonky handles) exist.


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## DitmasPork

nyc said:


> I wish forum members didn’t pour scorn on the enthusiasm of other members for knives made by makers they don’t appreciate or like. There will be knives and makers we like and those that we don’t. There’s a place for everyone. It makes this hobby (and KKF an interesting place to be) if we are more tolerant of differences.


Agree. I got scorched here for appreciating the talent, business savvy and success of a local female knife maker named Chelsea Miller. Brooklyn!


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## frombaltimore

it’s interesting to me that people have such strong positive/negative opinions on knives that have never handled/used.


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## Eloh

Like said in the other thread, if people are aware that with tf the deviation between knives can be a bit bigger than other knives at this price point than everything is fine. But it's also just fair to mention it to inform beginners. 
I've handled/seen TFs that are super performers but also more than one with significant flaws, so it is what it is


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## valdim

Koop said:


> Okay, so we need another TF thread. TBH, I don't own a bona-fide Teruyasu Fujiwara knife. I have two fu-rin-ka-zan versions (nashiji) from JCK. I love the feel and performance of these knives. If you try to understand the concept of *wabi-sabi*, maybe TF starts to make some sense. You can see a flaw in the knife in the center of the bunka - looks like a stray hammer mark, but it just means hand-made to me - in no way does it affect the use of the knife. The grinds are fine, please don't try to find flaws in photos that are less than flawless in their execution.View attachment 116840


Well, thanks @Koop for the interesting view point about the TFs. I absolutely agree that from the "wabi sabi" concept the TFs "start to make some sense".
Particularly about my Maboroshi - I love it even more.


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## Barmoley

big_adventure said:


> Confession: I've never even handled one, much less cut with one, and given the current market, I don't see it happening - not when I can get an insanely kickass honyaki with literally perfect F&F that cuts everything like a laser through cream cheese for the same price as a "maybe guess so" F&F knife that literally can't be a better cutter.



So this is my biggest issue with pretty much every TF discussion. Not singling you out, since you are very conscious and honest of it. Many opinions come from people that haven't spent time with TF knives or that care about perfect f&f more than cutting performance. I understand that when paying this much people are very critical and want perfect everything, it is reasonable. Especially the jump in price from 210 to 240 makes one wonder and question the value. I just think it is unreasonable to expect f&f perfection from TF, it is a known quantity, so why would you expect that? Cutting performance is very high and I wish that people who speak for or against at least had experience with these knives.

"insanely kickass honyaki with literally perfect F&F that cuts everything like a laser through cream cheese for the same price"

This is questionable, honyaki doesn't have to perform well, f&f is very high on good honyaki, but performance can be lacking. Honyaki doesn't mean it will perform well and many don't, some are excellent, but that has nothing to do with honyaki. Honyaki is the opposite of TF at its core, aesthetics vs performance, with the caveat that honyaki can have both, not trying to say that honyaki is not performance oriented, just that the core and main goal is killer aesthetics. I don't understand paying a lot more for honyaki that is meant for use. I understand why they cost more, just don't get why an end user would pay more if the goal is to use them.



nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> The main issues that I see people talking about with TF are functionally significant. That's not wabi sabi.
> 
> For example, if there's a hole in the bladeroad and a year of sharpening/use later I have a 1 inch patch of edge that doesn't contact the board, or when I'm unable to sharpen or thin evenly due to a warp in the blade, then yes - this "wabi-sabi" begins to be a problem. You buy a knife to use, and if you can't use it it's a bad knife.



There are undoubtedly some TFs out there that are just bad, but I've personally seen knives from very respected and talented smiths with major issues as well. Most that I've read through the years are complains about f&f on TFs. Some people start modifying them as soon as they get them, to make the road perfectly flat for example. This is often done whether the knife needs it or not, just because the user sees these and wants to fix these "issues". Then the same people say that their TF needed hours and hours to fix. Often these imperfections don't affect anything and the knife cuts great. Many of these dips or holes are so high on the blade road that noone would ever realistically get there. Very few people go through even 5 mm of the knife in their lifetime especially having multiple knives.

For example, I rehandled my denka, but it was perfectly functional. The only reason I did it was because I liked the knife so much and I saw another member's western handle and wanted the same. Denka was the only western I had so I rehandled it. Was it necessary, absolutely not. Maybe I got lucky, even though I saw and used another 4 TFs from dealers and other members and all were fine and didn't need any major work.


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## tcmx3

it's easy to write off criticism as just being from people who dont own them.

I would hazard you not to get too married to that idea, some of us who have criticisms own the knives. some of us even like them.

and also if you honestly are on the side of this "wabi sabi" business please keep in mind that I couldnt come up with anything as good as quoting a BBC article about it if i were trying to parody this thread.

(for clarity, this is NOT a criticism of the concept itself)


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## Barmoley

tcmx3 said:


> it's easy to write off criticism as just being from people who dont own them.
> 
> I would hazard you not to get too married to that idea, some of us who have criticisms own the knives. some of us even like them.
> 
> and also if you honestly are on the side of this "wabi sabi" business please keep in mind that I couldnt come up with anything as good as quoting a BBC article about it if i were trying to parody this thread.
> 
> (for clarity, this is NOT a criticism of the concept itself)



I am not writing criticism off. If you used the knife and didn't like it or feel that it is not worth the price it is perfectly fair. Even if you haven't used it and decide that it is too much for what it is fair as well. If you haven't and chime into every TF thread to say that you don't understand why anyone would pay this much for a crappy knife, then I have a problem with it. Again not addressed to you specifically just an observation about TF discussions.


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## inferno

if anyone wants to send me a free denka i'm willing to do the "beer can dura marathon test" with it. just so you know.


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## inferno




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## Corradobrit1

Crappy Heineken cans? What an insult. Only TF cans will do.......


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## inferno

i'm also willing to take full beer cans to test with. first i test the beer then the knife..

this test is as far removed from iso certified as you could possibly get though. its still highly scientific-ish. imo 
and its fun.


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## Alder26

inferno said:


>


Where does the Moog synthesizer factor into your testing?!


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## inferno

Alder26 said:


> Where does the Moog synthesizer factor into your testing?!



its not a moog. thats actually my modular drum machine. maybe 20 different manufacturers. 
well it factors in as i might do the test while its cranking out some weird and hard banging beats.


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## btbyrd

I’m also available for TF beer can dura marathon testing.


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## inferno

Alder26 said:


> Where does the Moog synthesizer factor into your testing?!



its gets worse though. this my actual "synth".
what can i say. i like analog stuff. the dirtiest and most bad ass sounding stuff.


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## RDalman

inferno said:


> View attachment 116903
> 
> 
> its gets worse though. this my actual "synth".
> what can i say. i like analog stuff. the dirtiest and most bad ass sounding stuff.


Yes I like to fart too. It feels good.


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## sliceanddicebaby




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## inferno

btbyrd said:


> I’m also available for TF beer can dura marathon testing.
> 
> View attachment 116902



my testing protocol basically works like this: you take 10 alu cans. and you try to chop them into pieces. and not until they are flat are you done chopping. really flat.

then you simply judge the size and number of chips/rolls of the edge after the test. is it severe/minor/medium? and this is basically how you find out if the steel is tough or not. well i do at least


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## inferno

sliceanddicebaby said:


> View attachment 116904


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## Qapla'

inferno said:


> if anyone wants to send me a free denka i'm willing to do the "beer can dura marathon test" with it. just so you know.





btbyrd said:


> I’m also available for TF beer can dura marathon testing.


Which knives are those?

As for TF deba's, I'd be interested in understanding just why one would buy a TF Denka deba over, say, an Ichimonji Kirameki (at nearly half the price). Or a Masamoto white honyaki at a comparable price, for that matter.


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## tcmx3

Barmoley said:


> I am not writing criticism off. If you used the knife and didn't like it or feel that it is not worth the price it is perfectly fair. Even if you haven't used it and decide that it is too much for what it is fair as well. If you haven't and chime into every TF thread to say that you don't understand why anyone would pay this much for a crappy knife, then I have a problem with it. Again not addressed to you specifically just an observation about TF discussions.



Ill give you that, but I think much like equal and opposite reaction there is absolutely an equivalent amount of people defending their egos vis-a-vis their purchase decisions.

some folks very badly need to separate their self-worth from their knife purchases and it shows in TF threads just like the folks who want to knock it before theyve tried it.


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## btbyrd

Qapla' said:


> Which knives are those?



Mine is a Kajiwara 165 western deba in Blue #1. Rustic, so-so fit and finish, but cheapish and basically indestructible.


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## inferno

Qapla' said:


> Which knives are those?
> 
> As for TF deba's, I'd be interested in understanding just why one would buy a TF Denka deba over, say, an Ichimonji Kirameki (at nearly half the price). Or a Masamoto white honyaki at a comparable price, for that matter.



why would anyone buy a tf knife over anything else? its one of those eternal questions that there is no answer for.


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## ModRQC

I've had a recent... significant experience with TF. Will post about it soon, I think it tells some part of the whole story rather well.

I think what baffles me the most is how many bad comments TF can get against other makers, where in my experience I've seen worse and I've seen better. The truest thing is how F&F fluctuates widely, more than it being a "problem" of itself through these fluctuations. Then again, I sure won't advocate no kind of forgiving attitude towards what is plain neglect. Then again, this has to be identified carefully - outside comparison with other makers just to say, well for that price F&F is better, doesn't really work.


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## DitmasPork

inferno said:


> why would anyone buy a tf knife over anything else? its one of those eternal questions that there is no answer for.



Why? Easy. Great knives, for those who love them. Certainly one of the more distinctive knives on the market, great cutter. TBH, many of the Sakai gyutos look alike to me.

It's silly to expect everyone to have the same taste. My vegan and jain friends ask—why would anyone want to eat meat?

TF one of the few makers that elicits passions for or against. Since an ever popular discussion topic, TF's denkas are a knife that any every serious J-knife enthusiast should at least try.

It's like food, gotta try tripe, uni or natto to decide if you like or dislike them.


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## tostadas

To me, the definition of "good F&F" is relative. I feel like slightly non-perfect scales on a yo handled TF are still more comfortable to me than some cleaner finished octo or D- handles. And what some retailers consider "rounded" choils and spines are still too rough for my liking.

Severe overgrinds in the blade are something I have not experienced in my TF samples. However, if I had one with such an issue, then I would be upset.

One thing that does seem to be consistent with TF is the heat treat of the steel. It is done very well. This is the most important thing that I expect on a high end knife, since it's not something that an end user like me can fix with sandpaper or stones.


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## tcmx3

DitmasPork said:


> Why? Easy. Great knives, for those who love them. Certainly one of the more distinctive knives on the market, great cutter. TBH, many of the Sakai gyutos look alike to me.
> 
> It's silly to expect everyone to have the same taste. My vegan and jain friends ask—why would anyone want to eat meat?
> 
> *TF one of the few makers that elicits passions for or against. Since an ever popular discussion topic, TF's denkas are a knife that any every serious J-knife enthusiast should at least try.*
> 
> It's like food, gotta try tripe, uni or natto to decide if you like or dislike them.
> 
> 
> View attachment 116911



what percentage of that comes down to the price, especially the price for a 240 gyuto (presumably the most popular offering around these parts)?

the big issue I have isnt about whether it's a good knife or not, anyone with a brain can tell they have some serious merits. it's whether I trust that people are being even a tiny bit objective about something they spent so much money on, because in my experience the answer is usually no.

I dont expect full objectivity, that would be both a stupid expectation from the perspective of people arent objective in general but also because subjective reasons are perfectly valid, too. 

the conversation around TF knives sometimes evokes the memories I have of 70s Fender guitars. everyone knows what the deal is, but now that the prices of those are so high, the owners are out there effectively lobbying others to agree with the valuation of the guitars for reasons of ego, collectability, etc. I dont like that and I dont like the implications of a person coming on a forum mostly about Japanese knives and telling people to google wabi sabi. 

and that's why any criticism you'll ever see of TF, Kato, etc. from me will include the disclosure of what I own AND the things I like to try and at least present my complaints in the context of my overall feelings.


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## Barmoley

tcmx3 said:


> what percentage of that comes down to the price, especially the price for a 240 gyuto (presumably the most popular offering around these parts)?
> 
> the big issue I have isnt about whether it's a good knife or not, anyone with a brain can tell they have some serious merits. it's whether I trust that people are being even a tiny bit objective about something they spent so much money on, because in my experience the answer is usually no.
> 
> I dont expect full objectivity, that would be both a stupid expectation from the perspective of people arent objective in general but also because subjective reasons are perfectly valid, too.


This is true of any expensive purchase. People always defend their choices more so the higher the price goes. You have to agree that there is generally no malicious intent in TF fans and that owners mostly don't lie to the forum to keep their resale value high. If you don't believe this then any discussion is pointless.

So if we agree that there is no malice and just normal human bias then we can also agree that there is something about these knives to keep them in business and priced high for many years now. Same can be said about any popular expensive knives, I might not understand Shig, Kato, Mazaki damascus, Jiro, etc prices, but I will also not actively discourage people from buying these knives. TF just seems to draw more hate and fan love than other brands.


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## panda

my custom denka cuts like turd, i have sent it to another maker for a regrind 

why would I spend this much on a knife I don't like the grind on? cause the profile and steel are elite


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## Corradobrit1

]


tcmx3 said:


> what percentage of that comes down to the price, especially the price for a 240 gyuto (presumably the most popular offering around these parts)?
> 
> the big issue I have isnt about whether it's a good knife or not, anyone with a brain can tell they have some serious merits. it's whether I trust that people are being even a tiny bit objective about something they spent so much money on, because in my experience the answer is usually no.
> 
> I dont expect full objectivity, that would be both a stupid expectation from the perspective of people arent objective in general but also because subjective reasons are perfectly valid, too.
> 
> the conversation around TF knives sometimes evokes the memories I have of 70s Fender guitars. everyone knows what the deal is, but now that the prices of those are so high, the owners are out there effectively lobbying others to agree with the valuation of the guitars for reasons of ego, collectability, etc. I dont like that and I dont like the implications of a person coming on a forum mostly about Japanese knives and telling people to google wabi sabi.
> 
> and that's why any criticism you'll ever see of TF, Kato, etc. from me will include the disclosure of what I own AND the things I like to try and at least present my complaints in the context of my overall feelings.


Get a Morihei Hisamoto 240. SS or iron clad, fine finish or not? The prices. even after a recent increase, are still significantly below the equivalent Mab. Personally I don't want a 240 so am happy to pick up cheaper smaller blade direct and the current 210's are oversized. There is no justification for the massive jump for what is only ~20mm of extra edge length.

I don't need to justify my purchase of TF. I have several Kato's and an Ashi Honyaki that cost considerably more. I would sell all of these before letting my Denka's go.


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## Corradobrit1

panda said:


> my custom denka cuts like turd, i have sent it to another maker for a regrind
> 
> why would I spend this much on a knife I don't like the grind on? cause the profile and steel are elite


I tried one vintage Denka 240 and that was a wedge monster. A previous owner had screwed it up and the result was a disaster. So yes, there are turds out there but not when purchased direct from TF these days. Its been said before and I'll say it again, the issues with grinds (my biggest concern) etc have been addressed to the point where TF is no better or worse than other makers. All the crappy TF's I've handled were from third party vendors or used.


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## WiriWiri

I can freely admit that I like both of the TFs I‘ve owned - really rather excellent cutters - and even quite like the panto villain status of the man, even If I can’t fully comprehend the full-on emotions the subject stirs up on occasion. Agree with ModRQC that there are probably worse and better offenders, and I find it hard to care too much really.

My gut feel/ludicrous current pet theory is that there’s a strange feeling of unfairness surrounding TF knives. Many of us, myself included, at least partially buy into the romantic notion of dedicated smiths honing their craft, whilst increasing experience and exposure to their work help us in turn find the ‘right’ blade(s) for us.

So it’s slightly grating and ego-deflating to find out that someone who makes some of the most potentially excellent all-round blades just doesn’t seem to fit that pattern - despite years and years of the same consistent moaning from every quarter, doesn‘t really seem to have bothered to have improved his offering in the slightest. I wouldn‘t be altogether surprised if he skips out of his workshop early every Friday, leaving his marginally untrained underlings in charge, while he flip-flops over to the local bar for a rousing rendition of ’I don‘t do Kaizen and I don‘t care’


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## Corradobrit1

WiriWiri said:


> So it’s slightly grating and ego-deflating to find out that someone who makes some of the most potentially excellent all-round blades just doesn’t seem to fit that pattern - despite years and years of the same consistent moaning from every quarter, doesn‘t really seem to have bothered to have improved his offering in the slightest. I wouldn‘t be altogether surprised if he skips out of his workshop early every Friday, leaving his marginally untrained underlings in charge, while he flip-flops over to the local bar for a rousing rendition of ’I don‘t do Kaizen and I don‘t care’


TF IV is not involved in making standard TF knives anymore. The factory is far from him outside Tokyo and is manned by 5 guys including his son, so continuing the family tradition. "Untrained underlings" LOL. One of the guys is over 75 years old. Another 2-3 are master craftsmen with a similar combined experience as bladesmiths.


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## tcmx3

Barmoley said:


> This is true of any expensive purchase. People always defend their choices more so the higher the price goes. You have to agree that there is generally no malicious intent in TF fans and that owners mostly don't lie to the forum to keep their resale value high. If you don't believe this then any discussion is pointless.
> 
> So if we agree that there is no malice and just normal human bias then we can also agree that there is something about these knives to keep them in business and priced high for many years now. Same can be said about any popular expensive knives, I might not understand Shig, Kato, Mazaki damascus, Jiro, etc prices, but I will also not actively discourage people from buying these knives. TF just seems to draw more hate and fan love than other brands.



I will readily agree there is no malice or intentional price manipulation.

afterall, we're just dealing with individuals here. 

also my suggestion was that TF discussions evoked those 70s Fender convos, not that it was 1:1. I dont think people are buying TFs as "appreciating assets" (which is laughable but there you go with guitar collecting) so I think even the subconscious urge to minimize criticism is a fair bit lower. 

Ive hinted at this recently but for me Ive had a bit of a revelation buying a bit less expensive knives than I used to and being willing to aggressively take them to the stones, and seeing how I can get performance from a $250 mazaki or hinoura that I used to think required you to shell out >500 clams. I think of all the folks around here, if a TF 240 were priced more in line with what other folks charged I would probably be in the cheering section.

also yes @Corradobrit1 the Morihei iron clad is actually on my list as it's easily the most appealing of the bunch to me since I really do not like stainless cladding.


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## panda

Corradobrit1 said:


> I tried one vintage Denka 240 and that was a wedge monster. A previous owner had screwed it up and the result was a disaster. So yes, there are turds out there but not when purchased direct from TF these days. Its been said before and I'll say it again, the issues with grinds (my biggest concern) etc have been addressed to the point where TF is no better or worse than other makers. All the crappy TF's I've handled were from third party vendors or used.


mine was a custom.ordered direct.


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## Corradobrit1

panda said:


> mine was a custom.ordered direct.


Don't know what to tell you. All 6 of the TF's I've ordered direct have been on point.


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## WiriWiri

Corradobrit1 said:


> TF IV is not involved in making standard TF knives anymore. The factory is far from him outside Tokyo and is manned by 5 guys including his son, so continuing the family tradition. "Untrained underlings" LOL. One of the guys is over 75 years old. Another 2-3 are master craftsmen with a similar combined experience as bladesmiths.



Needless to say, I didn‘t intend that post to be entirely accurate or rooted in anything approaching reality, but cheers for the helpful added detail. 

Regardless of their expertise, they remain strangely myopic to many obvious F&F issues


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## Rangen

I have an aversion to talking about why I like my TFs and their rustic aesthetic so much. I think it's a fear that I might discover one of two things:

Either I like things that are sort of steampunk, which would be embarrassing because I hate that word

Or I like the fact that they look a long way from perfect because I will probably eff up the look at some point, and I won't need to worry because rustic.


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## BillHanna




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## nwshull

Hopefully my mention of wabi sabi in another thread recently didn't contribute to this. I like TF knives, my most personalized knife is a nashiji, but I don't think that's what these are. To my understanding a wabi sabi aesthetic has subtle mastery masked within deliberate imperfection. My interpretation of TF knives are that they, like many knives from more famous smiths have their prices raised from price inflation over the passed few years. Which honestly, is fine. I think a lot of people who complain about cost, don't always think, of the time it would take them to do something by hand vs an hourly wage they would accept for it being a pain in the ass. 

I think with TF its more a factor of the Western market has a higher demand for fit and finish, and also a higher thorough put demand generally. They want more knives and they want them done better. Small scale production doesn't generally ramp up to do both well. My TF is now a very nice knife. I got it professionally reground, and put a Dave Martell handle on it, he also rounded the spine while doing so. A lot of people complain about TF prices, but they need to think if its what the market will support why shouldn't they ask it? Knife making is a hard job. You do hit a point with your product if you don't deliver the hype. Look at Masamoto KSs these days, I remember a few years back they were hitting almost 1 k resale. Now they sit in stock.


----------



## DavidPF

nwshull said:


> the Western market has a higher demand for fit and finish,


Do people in Japan confirm that this is true? I've never been there, but to me it doesn't seem to fit with what little I've seen of Japanese-made consumer goods for Japan.


----------



## DavidPF

Rangen said:


> Or I like the fact that they look a long way from perfect because I will probably eff up the look at some point, and I won't need to worry because rustic.


There's nothing wrong with that, is there? A rustic-type finish on an area that's going to get scratched up anyway? Why not? It's not everyone's preference, but either way is good.


----------



## Koop

Post #43 - "I dont like that and I dont like the implications of a person coming on a forum mostly about Japanese knives and telling people to google wabi sabi."

I don't think I told anyone to Google Wabi-Sabi. I did include a link - if that offended you, I suggest you move on and find another thread to be offended by. In post #4 you suggest banning the word!

Also, in post #14 I mention the notion that this concept may explain why TF gets fewer complaints in his home market. I don't know this for fact, but I've read this several times from people that seem to be in the know.


----------



## nwshull

DavidPF said:


> Do people in Japan confirm that this is true? I've never been there, but to me it doesn't seem to fit with what little I've seen of Japanese-made consumer goods for Japan.


From my albiet limited experience in Japanese home kitchens, yes. It is a similar case with a lot of their woodworking tools, which is a much older consumer market for blacksmithed goods.

But more importantly, I think we're forgetting for the upper middle class and upper class that typically can afford to spend 500 bucks on knives, cooking for yourself is a fairly recent phenomena, possibly more so in Japan. Having a decked out equipped kitchen and cooking in it is a later 20th early 21st century status symbol. Knife smiths and manufacturers before that were catering to restaurants and out of site out of mind help in a lot of cases before that. Not a lot of people care about mirror polishing the spine when they aren't the ones using the knife.


----------



## tcmx3

Koop said:


> Post #43 - "I dont like that and I dont like the implications of a person coming on a forum mostly about Japanese knives and telling people to google wabi sabi."
> 
> I don't think I told anyone to Google Wabi-Sabi. I did include a link - if that offended you, I suggest you move on and find another thread to be offended by. In post #4 you suggest banning the word!
> 
> Also, in post #14 I mention the notion that this concept may explain why TF gets fewer complaints in his home market. I don't know this for fact, but I've read this several times from people that seem to be in the know.



why would you think I was offended by that? I have no reason to be, this is a fascinating example of how people who dont actually know anything are the ones most convinced of their own expertise.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

I’ve had two Maboroshi, both small gyuto. The one probably sold as 195mm class (about 200 actual) and the other 210mm class (215 actual). Both from Rodriguez Butcher Supply at about $300 each which was essentially equal to the direct price shipped at the time; no markup for cherry picking/enhanced custom spec QC. They were excellent knives OOTB but as I learned to thin the one I kept (longer one, the other was taller with too much belly for me) really started to blaze. I barely pay attention to anything that doesn’t affect practical use, both in terms of a knife being worth more and in terms of a knife being worth less. Neither of mine had any blatant defects; neither was the most beautiful and refined knife I had ever seen. To be fair, to the unschooled observer most $300 knives don’t look like they’d cost that much and neither do many $500 knives.

Especially having tuned it up some, I’d say that the Mab is in the top few 210mm gyuto I’ve ever used, easily in the top few $300 range knives I’ve ever used, and also in the top few white steel knives I’ve ever used. Now I think here is where it gets tricky: the step from 210 to 240 is something like $150 more. Then the Denka is that much more expensive and that much more again above 210 length. Heavier hitters at that price range; if I’m expecting it to blow away Kemadi, Mizuno Blue 1, Dalman, Kagekiyo... see where I’m going? Entirely subjective at that rarefied tier so I can see someone getting set up for disappointment not because it isn’t good or isn’t worth it but because it doesn’t suit them as well as an equally high-level piece.

Had an interesting conversation with a local knifemaker recently; we were talking about a Dao Vua cleaver but touched on Japanese knives. I wondered how a knife that isn’t straight and looks like it shouldn’t ever be able to produce a straight slice nevertheless does so just fine. He explained to me the details of it, most of which I don’t entirely get but that despite it not being perfectly straight nor flat nor in line, the geometry is such that a straight edge can be ground onto it and the deformations don’t translate to a bad slice. And he also mentioned how the Japanese knives tend to be the same way — the parts that make a difference in how it cuts get the attention and fine work, talking about how San mai is hard to get straight and that in his experience as a sharpener and then as a blacksmith Japanese smiths don’t necessarily focus on the same aspects as American ones, whether the reason be cultural or market-driven or both. I don’t know because I’ve hardly spoken to any but for me the value of a knife is mainly in how it feels to cut food for a few hours with it, on some balance of speed and precision, and my Tf scores highly. I might think differently when I get a Denka compared to that much higher of a level of competition but either way it won’t make me get rid of the Mab.

panda’s idea to have one custom reground is something I’ve considered doing with a Heiji, Heiji SS and Denka being perhaps two instances where the steel really is that significant.


----------



## panda

GorillaGrunt said:


> I’ve had two Maboroshi, both small gyuto. The one probably sold as 195mm class (about 200 actual) and the other 210mm class (215 actual). Both from Rodriguez Butcher Supply at about $300 each which was essentially equal to the direct price shipped at the time; no markup for cherry picking/enhanced custom spec QC. They were excellent knives OOTB but as I learned to thin the one I kept (longer one, the other was taller with too much belly for me) really started to blaze. I barely pay attention to anything that doesn’t affect practical use, both in terms of a knife being worth more and in terms of a knife being worth less. Neither of mine had any blatant defects; neither was the most beautiful and refined knife I had ever seen. To be fair, to the unschooled observer most $300 knives don’t look like they’d cost that much and neither do many $500 knives.
> 
> Especially having tuned it up some, I’d say that the Mab is in the top few 210mm gyuto I’ve ever used, easily in the top few $300 range knives I’ve ever used, and also in the top few white steel knives I’ve ever used. Now I think here is where it gets tricky: the step from 210 to 240 is something like $150 more. Then the Denka is that much more expensive and that much more again above 210 length. Heavier hitters at that price range; if I’m expecting it to blow away Kemadi, Mizuno Blue 1, Dalman, Kagekiyo... see where I’m going? Entirely subjective at that rarefied tier so I can see someone getting set up for disappointment not because it isn’t good or isn’t worth it but because it doesn’t suit them as well as an equally high-level piece.
> 
> Had an interesting conversation with a local knifemaker recently; we were talking about a Dao Vua cleaver but touched on Japanese knives. I wondered how a knife that isn’t straight and looks like it shouldn’t ever be able to produce a straight slice nevertheless does so just fine. He explained to me the details of it, most of which I don’t entirely get but that despite it not being perfectly straight nor flat nor in line, the geometry is such that a straight edge can be ground onto it and the deformations don’t translate to a bad slice. And he also mentioned how the Japanese knives tend to be the same way — the parts that make a difference in how it cuts get the attention and fine work, talking about how San mai is hard to get straight and that in his experience as a sharpener and then as a blacksmith Japanese smiths don’t necessarily focus on the same aspects as American ones, whether the reason be cultural or market-driven or both. I don’t know because I’ve hardly spoken to any but for me the value of a knife is mainly in how it feels to cut food for a few hours with it, on some balance of speed and precision, and my Tf scores highly. I might think differently when I get a Denka compared to that much higher of a level of competition but either way it won’t make me get rid of the Mab.
> 
> panda’s idea to have one custom reground is something I’ve considered doing with a Heiji, Heiji SS and Denka being perhaps two instances where the steel really is that significant.


kemadi doesn't belong in that group lol.

if my tf regrind is a success, I will absolutely order a heiji carbon with intent to have it reground as well.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

I dunno, i like my Kemadi a lot... There ya go, subjectivity. And i just checked, a 240mm denka is getting up into Kato territory which makes the one on eBay suddenly more tempting and also tempts one to just go ahead and get a Kato.


----------



## nyc

I think it helps if members don't take it as a personal affront when others are or come across as being (over) enthusiastic and indulge in a bit of "evangelizing" - even if it stemmed from a need for affirmation post-purchase. Personally, I welcome the feel-good aspect of buying and owning knives, whatever the type or maker shared by other members. It's an opportunity to learn from the experience of others with makes that I may or may not like or buy.
TF is perhaps the most polarising and misunderstood of makers. In a way, it has been singled out and made the poster child of poor F&F by the Western market. TF is an old and established name in the business. They have a retail outlet that as far as knives are concerned, are only stocked with what they make. And they are by no means near the kitchen retail centre of Tokyo that is Kappabashi. And yet they have survived, thrived even. Amidst all the bashing they receive (mostly on Western forums I expect), prices have and will continue to go up. And no, the domestic market has no issue with their work. I've dined in a hole-in-the-wall type of place in Tokyo where the people working behind the counter use a Maboroshi. In a nutshell, it is mostly because they (the Japanese) see the knife as a tool. The type that aren't drawer queens. The type made to be used and abused (from the point of not having to baby it).
But back to the negative perception. I feel this largely stems from a cultural difference - a different perspective and expectation of pricing and finishing that the Western market has. Some makes are at the very top of the game when it comes to fit and finish, and do very well. But we have to understand that these are very much by design, finished to a level that meets the expectations of the Western market. This and the notion of the lone wolf maker has much less traction, if any in their domestic market. In any event, this standard is not one that we can realistically hold all makers to. Or conversely, it is not a standard some makers care to embrace. As buyers, we just vote with our cash.
I started out being taken aback by what I read on KKF regarding the "issues" but remained intrigued enough to take the plunge. But this was only after a year plus of speaking privately with people who own not just TFs but also Shigs, Katos etc to get their feedback.
There's a little more to TF as a maker than just the quality of the steel and heat treat, which are the most common things mentioned on the boards here. For me, it's the sum of all these things that make them worthwhile.


----------



## tcmx3

panda said:


> kemadi doesn't belong in that group lol.
> 
> if my tf regrind is a success, I will absolutely order a heiji carbon with intent to have it reground as well.



keep us updated as I would strongly consider having my Heiji 240 modified. the grind those come with is... interesting.


----------



## Koop

tcmx3 - you wrote "why would you think I was offended by that? I have no reason to be, this is a fascinating example of how people who dont actually know anything are the ones most convinced of their own expertise."

Really now...your earlier post

"yeah so after reading this I would like petition to add "wabi sabi" to the prohibited words list
Im not joking, this is a serious rec for the mods. "

So now you add insult by saying I don't know anything. Goodbye.


----------



## DavidPF

GorillaGrunt said:


> Had an interesting conversation with a local knifemaker recently; we were talking about a Dao Vua cleaver but touched on Japanese knives. I wondered how a knife that isn’t straight and looks like it shouldn’t ever be able to produce a straight slice nevertheless does so just fine. He explained to me the details of it, most of which I don’t entirely get but that despite it not being perfectly straight nor flat nor in line, the geometry is such that a straight edge can be ground onto it and the deformations don’t translate to a bad slice. And he also mentioned how the Japanese knives tend to be the same way — the parts that make a difference in how it cuts get the attention and fine work, talking about how San mai is hard to get straight and that in his experience as a sharpener and then as a blacksmith Japanese smiths don’t necessarily focus on the same aspects as American ones, whether the reason be cultural or market-driven or both. I don’t know because I’ve hardly spoken to any but for me the value of a knife is mainly in how it feels to cut food for a few hours with it, on some balance of speed and precision, and my Tf scores highly. I might think differently when I get a Denka compared to that much higher of a level of competition but either way it won’t make me get rid of the Mab.
> 
> panda’s idea to have one custom reground is something I’ve considered doing with a Heiji, Heiji SS and Denka being perhaps two instances where the steel really is that significant.


It's great to be able to buy really top-quality blanks and send them to be made into a knife. (Of course there's some sarcasm in there, but I also sincerely mean it's a useful option if it's available.)

The discussions of different customer expectations in different places make me wonder - don't Japanese customers treat all of these as finished knives, to be sharpened when bought and to be used as they are?


----------



## mmiinngg

frombaltimore said:


> it’s interesting to me that people have such strong positive/negative opinions on knives that have never handled/used.


Definitely, should be authorized so say "tf" on this forum only those who actually have or had one.
Tf topics - love/hate - would certainly appear like any other brand/maker, not as frequently and not in such a frenetic way.

I don't own one, and never did. So I just shut the phoque up

To the mods : while registing, one should declare and prove he's got a tf, or acquired one. It should appear above the member status.


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## DavidPF

I can't imagine a world in which this whole issue has magically just never ever come up in discussion at TF Headquarters.

My guess as to what might have been said:

[earnest voice] It might be possible, in the current situation, that a more comprehensive quality contr...

.

.

.


----------



## DavidPF

mmiinngg said:


> I don't own one, and never did. So I just shut the phoque up


If the majority of people discussing their TF knives have been grossly exaggerating or outright lying, then this is a fair point.

If they haven't, then it isn't a fair point at all.


----------



## Nagakin

The guys slapping carved handles onto boring blades for the same price (or freakishly more) are the offensive ones. 

If you're not one of the few who got a true lemon, I don't see where the complaints are coming from. Unless the first thing you do when someone enters your home is hold their hand and walk them to your denka...


----------



## Carl Kotte

RDalman said:


> +1! Kkf as a whole will never agree on which is THE best knife either, because like swedish saying; taste is like the ass - split. Grats on your knives op!


If there’s room in the heart, there’s room in the ass.


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## M1k3

tcmx3 said:


> keep us updated as I would strongly consider having my Heiji 240 modified. the grind those come with is... interesting.


I'll be modifying the one I have on order.


----------



## Midsummer

tcmx3 said:


> this is a fascinating example of how people who dont actually know anything are the ones most convinced of their own expertise.



Funny, that is the same thought I have when I read your posts.


----------



## M1k3




----------



## lemeneid

panda said:


> my custom denka cuts like turd, i have sent it to another maker for a regrind
> 
> why would I spend this much on a knife I don't like the grind on? cause the profile and steel are elite


That is NOT a Denka my friend


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## JayS20

Why is there so much "hate" against TFs? The answer is simple because of (overblown) hype which pretty much resulted in a cult. There are voices who try to balance it out.
For the price of a 240mm Denka I could get customs and knives from guys like Kamon, Dalman, Raquin, Puig, JJTritz, Kipp, ShiHan... and the list goes on and on. If we factor in VAT and custom duties for Europeans we are in the ballpark of a nice Xerxes.
I don't have a horse in this race so I just try to give an outsider perspective.
I would appreciate it if both sides would tune it down which I'm sure won't happen and TF owners just enjoy their knives without needing to hype them up. I will never understand fandom be it about music stars, actors... I just enjoy their music, films, knives and don't care for them.
Instead we get threads like this again and again.


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## Carl Kotte

I don’t have a horse in this race. But I think @JayS20 sums it up well.
I’ve only tried two TFs. Both arrived from retailer with bent/curvy edges and bad overgrinds at the very edge. The munetoshis I have have had the same problems. One big difference, of course, is price. I prefer not to hammer new knives straight on arrival. That said, I’m happy for those who got great TFs.


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## WiriWiri

Pah, your reason and Swedish neutrality cannot hope to prevail here


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## Carl Kotte

WiriWiri said:


> Pah, your reason and Swedish neutrality cannot hope to prevail here


I’ve done well for 300 years.


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## Benuser

Carl Kotte said:


> I’ve done well for 300 years.


Only since 1814.


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## Carl Kotte

Benuser said:


> Only since 1814.


 200 years doesn’t sound equally impressive.


----------



## big_adventure

Barmoley said:


> So this is my biggest issue with pretty much every TF discussion. Not singling you out, since you are very conscious and honest of it. Many opinions come from people that haven't spent time with TF knives or that care about perfect f&f more than cutting performance. I understand that when paying this much people are very critical and want perfect everything, it is reasonable. Especially the jump in price from 210 to 240 makes one wonder and question the value. I just think it is unreasonable to expect f&f perfection from TF, it is a known quantity, so why would you expect that? Cutting performance is very high and I wish that people who speak for or against at least had experience with these knives.



I would _love_ to have a not-too-f'ed-up Denka for a reasonable price and not needing to get super lucky just to have the chance to buy it. As far as "expecting" F&F - yeah, I wouldn't expect perfection given the reputation, but I think it's sad that the reputation exists. It wouldn't take much to _not_ have those issues. Sukenari, who makes wonderful mid-to-high-end knives that are great cutters also have absolutely flawless F&F as well as insanely high quality HTs and everything else. Their knives just aren't as "hot" as TF. Shig, an even _more_ unicorn brand then TF, has immaculate F&F and their blades are also great cutters. Someone like Moritaka makes great cutters with exceedingly mediocre F&F, but they are comparatively cheap and always available. TF is more or less the _only_ unicorn brand/maker that gets away with this and stays so popular.

I say all of that while also rebounding to my first point: I'd love to have a Denka without too much hassle on my board. But I wouldn't order one online for a grand or more to take a chance on receiving a problem child for a blade.



Barmoley said:


> This is questionable, honyaki doesn't have to perform well, f&f is very high on good honyaki, but performance can be lacking. Honyaki doesn't mean it will perform well and many don't, some are excellent, but that has nothing to do with honyaki. Honyaki is the opposite of TF at its core, aesthetics vs performance, with the caveat that honyaki can have both, not trying to say that honyaki is not performance oriented, just that the core and main goal is killer aesthetics. I don't understand paying a lot more for honyaki that is meant for use. I understand why they cost more, just don't get why an end user would pay more if the goal is to use them.



I hear you - I wasn't speaking hypothetically though: I just bought a honyaki on BST that is perfection to use and also to look at and handle and everything else. I don't think that spending over a grand on a knife can ever be said to "make sense." Making sense generally isn't the reason for hobbies - and we are all possessed to some extent by this hobby. I don't need 20 or more knives and neither does anyone else. But I like them.

I would never think of criticizing TF's ability to make a blade that cuts or to criticize people who buy them (even those who push the prices into the stratosphere), but I think it's fair to criticize any manufacturer who does some of the frankly inexcusable stuff TF apparently does at that price point. Having a slightly wonky ku finish or a mediocre out of box edge is one thing. Having a crooked blade or handle, or a blade road with holes, on a thousand dollar knife is the kind of thing that would cause most brands to go bankrupt. In this case, there are a ton of other things about the blades that are good and the supply is so limited that demand is out of control. It still doesn't, in my eyes, excuse THAT level of indifference to the customer.

If you went to eat at The French Laundry in Yountville, and the waiter was slow to bring you a glass of water, that's pretty inexcusable, even if the rest of the meal is exceptional (and it will be, I assure you). It doesn't happen because they care about their customers, even though they frankly don't have to, as they are always always always full. Excusing TF for that just because they _can_ be that way and their customers will just bend right on over and say "thank you sir, may I have another" seems misplaced.

If I've talked anyone out of loving their Mab or Denka, PM me, I'll send you my address, I'll sacrifice myself by taking it off of your hands.


----------



## panda

lemeneid said:


> That is NOT a Denka my friend


I call it denkaroshi


----------



## panda

did this guy just say moritaka are great cutters? lmao


----------



## big_adventure

panda said:


> did this guy just say moritaka are great cutters? lmao



I have a nakiri that is. It required a fair amount of work to get there - the initial edge was garbage and it needed serious thinning to get rid of a lot of uneven concavity, but it's amazing now. It's also got rough edges everywhere and the ku will probably flake off if you breath hard on it. It cost a hell of a lot less than a Denka.


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## panda

everything about moritaka I owned was complete trash especially the grind and steel.


----------



## nyc

big_adventure said:


> I have a nakiri that is. It required a fair amount of work to get there - the initial edge was garbage and it needed serious thinning to get rid of a lot of uneven concavity, but it's amazing now. It's also got rough edges everywhere and the ku will probably flake off if you breath hard on it. It cost a hell of a lot less than a Denka.



Most things cost less than a Denka.


----------



## big_adventure

panda said:


> everything about moritaka I owned was complete trash especially the grind and steel.



Everyone has different experiences, I suppose. The nakiri I have is in AS and it's been good since I fixed the edge and the grind. I don't feel as if it was either a bargain or a ripoff, I guess. If I'd paid 500 for it, I'd definitely be thinking "ripoff" and if I'd paid 90 for it, "bargain."


----------



## big_adventure

nyc said:


> Most things cost less than a Denka.



Yeah, it's definitely a low bar to clear.


----------



## panda

big_adventure said:


> Everyone has different experiences, I suppose. The nakiri I have is in AS and it's been good since I fixed the edge and the grind. I don't feel as if it was either a bargain or a ripoff, I guess. If I'd paid 500 for it, I'd definitely be thinking "ripoff" and if I'd paid 90 for it, "bargain."


I wouldn't want a moritaka even for free.


----------



## tcmx3

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 116959



eh it's fine. 

he just thinks he's being humorous but if you pushed him he would admit that he doesnt really believe it. where in this thread have I positioned myself as having knowledge others dont? literally nowhere, Ive just pointed out that the OP is the sort of person who tucks his t-shirt into his shorts.


----------



## big_adventure

panda said:


> I wouldn't want a moritaka even for free.



So if I decide to sell mine, you're saying you don't want it?


----------



## GorillaGrunt

I always get into trouble with car and sports analogies because I don’t know much about either .... but how about those pre-Ford Jaguars that pretty much required you to have a British mechanic riding in the boot? Some customers gladly accepted this because the car was so beautiful, refined, etc. and others couldn’t understand why the hell anyone would pay Mercedes money for such an unreliable jalopy.


----------



## frombaltimore

DavidPF said:


> If the majority of people discussing their TF knives have been grossly exaggerating or outright lying, then this is a fair point.
> 
> If they haven't, then it isn't a fair point at all.


i think it’s still a fair point. someone else’s experience with a knife cannot replace your own experience with a knife IF you want to vehemently praise/degrade the knife’s perfomance, fit and finish, etc publicly.


----------



## panda

GorillaGrunt said:


> I always get into trouble with car and sports analogies because I don’t know much about either .... but how about those pre-Ford Jaguars that pretty much required you to have a British mechanic riding in the boot? Some customers gladly accepted this because the car was so beautiful, refined, etc. and others couldn’t understand why the hell anyone would pay Mercedes money for such an unreliable jalopy.


not to mention the most cramped interiors


----------



## Barmoley

big_adventure said:


> I wasn't speaking hypothetically though: I just bought a honyaki on BST that is perfection to use and also to look at and handle and everything else. I don't think that spending over a grand on a knife can ever be said to "make sense." Making sense generally isn't the reason for hobbies - and we are all possessed to some extent by this hobby. I don't need 20 or more knives and neither does anyone else. But I like them.



First of all, congratulations. Why are we still discussing TF, sounds like you already got your perfect knife or really everyone's perfect knife. Which knife is it?



big_adventure said:


> I would _love_ to have a not-too-f'ed-up Denka for a reasonable price and not needing to get super lucky just to have the chance to buy it. As far as "expecting" F&F - yeah, I wouldn't expect perfection given the reputation, but I think it's sad that the reputation exists. It wouldn't take much to _not_ have those issues. Sukenari, who makes wonderful mid-to-high-end knives that are great cutters also have absolutely flawless F&F as well as insanely high quality HTs and everything else. Their knives just aren't as "hot" as TF. Shig, an even _more_ unicorn brand then TF, has immaculate F&F and their blades are also great cutters. Someone like Moritaka makes great cutters with exceedingly mediocre F&F, but they are comparatively cheap and always available. TF is more or less the _only_ unicorn brand/maker that gets away with this and stays so popular.
> 
> I say all of that while also rebounding to my first point: I'd love to have a Denka without too much hassle on my board. But I wouldn't order one online for a grand or more to take a chance on receiving a problem child for a blade.



I get the sentiment I really do. All I am saying is that TF is still in business, selling a crap load of knives at "high" prices and griping by a tiny yet very vocal minority on this forum doesn't seem to change this fact. Some keep on asking, but why don't they fix the "problems". I don't know, but my guess is, they are not problems to them and most of their customers. We keep on hearing about the reasonable price or getting super lucky. Price is price if it is selling it is reasonable for most, might not be reasonable for me, but that has nothing to do with it. Shig prices are not reasonable to me, Shigs I've tried were not great cutters, f&f was excellent though. This doesn't change the fact that Shigs sell well and most think they are great and worth it.

As far as getting lucky, most that buy seem to get "lucky", there are very few truly problem knives, at least going by this forum. Most problems seem to come from wrong expectations or people who haven't tried one complaining about them.

210 and under Denka's don't seem that outrageous. Why there is such a huge jump to 240, again I don't know. My guess would be that few 240s and up sell in the local market and most of these go to western markets where people are willing to pay more. Pure guess on my part. Would you still say that 210 at around $530 is unreasonable for what you get?


----------



## DitmasPork

tcmx3 said:


> what percentage of that comes down to the price, especially the price for a 240 gyuto (presumably the most popular offering around these parts)?
> 
> the big issue I have isnt about whether it's a good knife or not, anyone with a brain can tell they have some serious merits. it's whether I trust that people are being even a tiny bit objective about something they spent so much money on, because in my experience the answer is usually no.
> 
> I dont expect full objectivity, that would be both a stupid expectation from the perspective of people arent objective in general but also because subjective reasons are perfectly valid, too.
> 
> the conversation around TF knives sometimes evokes the memories I have of 70s Fender guitars. everyone knows what the deal is, but now that the prices of those are so high, the owners are out there effectively lobbying others to agree with the valuation of the guitars for reasons of ego, collectability, etc. I dont like that and I dont like the implications of a person coming on a forum mostly about Japanese knives and telling people to google wabi sabi.
> 
> and that's why any criticism you'll ever see of TF, Kato, etc. from me will include the disclosure of what I own AND the things I like to try and at least present my complaints in the context of my overall feelings.



Price comparables probably the least of my concerns when buying a knife—if someone's zeroed into wanting a denka, Jiro or Raquin, it's usually irrelevant what other knives are better bang-for-buck, they've already made up their minds. Denkas cost what they cost, they're not over priced, those that can't afford denkas will consider other knives; those that can afford a denka have a bit of bling. Anyone sniffing around a denka has expendable income to burn. I'd no expectations of great f&f with my denka, f&f not a priority for buying a TF—I've used mediocre knives with perfect f&f.

Most comments on denkas are well intentioned—but opinions are inherently biased, based on one's experience and tastes. Personally, I get annoyed by negative denka comments that begin with "I heard" or "I read." The comments—both positive or negative—I respect most are from people that have actually used denkas.

I've been collecting J-knives for over a decade, but very new to try a denka, got my first one last Spring. I love my denka, but don't count myself as a denka fanboy. IMO, denkas are great knives, few knives feel like one, or even look like one with the hallmark finger notch; if seeking a refined finish, I'd prob get Konosuke. My denka is an awesome performer for sure—but it it my best or favorite knife? No.

I'd recommend a denka to a J-knife neophyte—if they had the money, wanted to get a very distinctive, rustic gyuto from an important maker. I don't believe in 'intro knives' for knife enthusiasts; or believe that people have to progress up to a particular knife. Aim high. It's like cars, if one can afford a porche as a first car, then why not?


----------



## big_adventure

Barmoley said:


> First of all, congratulations. Why are we still discussing TF, sounds like you already got your perfect knife or really everyone's perfect knife. Which knife is it?



Hitohira Togashi Yohei Honyaki White 1 240.




Barmoley said:


> I get the sentiment I really do. All I am saying is that TF is still in business, selling a crap load of knives at "high" prices and griping by a tiny yet very vocal minority on this forum doesn't seem to change this fact. Some keep on asking, but why don't they fix the "problems". I don't know, but my guess is, they are not problems to them and most of their customers. We keep on hearing about the reasonable price or getting super lucky. Price is price if it is selling it is reasonable for most, might not be reasonable for me, but that has nothing to do with it. Shig prices are not reasonable to me, Shigs I've tried were not great cutters, f&f was excellent though. This doesn't change the fact that Shigs sell well and most think they are great and worth it.
> 
> As far as getting lucky, most that buy seem to get "lucky", there are very few truly problem knives, at least going by this forum. Most problems seem to come from wrong expectations or people who haven't tried one complaining about them.



Excellent post, by the way. I get everything you are saying. And it's clear that TF has no incentive to clean up their act outside of "not being asses": they sell every Denka they can churn out, and not being asses is rarely a compelling reason to add work to the process. I guess the lesson is to put your hands on a Denka before buying it. 



Barmoley said:


> 210 and under Denka's don't seem that outrageous. Why there is such a huge jump to 240, again I don't know. My guess would be that few 240s and up sell in the local market and most of these go to western markets where people are willing to pay more. Pure guess on my part. Would you still say that 210 at around $530 is unreasonable for what you get?



Not too bad at all, actually, given how good the tools are if you don't get shafted.


----------



## ModRQC

JayS20 said:


> Why is there so much "hate" against TFs? The answer is simple because of (overblown) hype which pretty much resulted in a cult. There are voices who try to balance it out.
> For the price of a 240mm Denka I could get customs and knives from guys like Kamon, Dalman, Raquin, Puig, JJTritz, Kipp, ShiHan... and the list goes on and on. If we factor in VAT and custom duties for Europeans we are in the ballpark of a nice Xerxes.
> I don't have a horse in this race so I just try to give an outsider perspective.
> I would appreciate it if both sides would tune it down which I'm sure won't happen and TF owners just enjoy their knives without needing to hype them up. I will never understand fandom be it about music stars, actors... I just enjoy their music, films, knives and don't care for them.
> Instead we get threads like this again and again.



The logic is somewhat false. I like your post and the idea behind, but as it happens here, it's not like that. 

Meaning, voices trying to balance it out usually come out first - then those who love their TFs curb it some. Just the title of this very post I think says it all. Or the fact that if someone opens a Want to buy questionnaire, or asks around generally, about buying a TF, then again the haters will usually popout first saying you can buy twice as good for half the price. TF appreciators come in and curb it some.

Are there examples of, in such situations, members that will incense TF to the heavens and beyond. I guess there are.

But I don't see TF appreciators strolling around creating posts to just give love to their knives. They usually pop up in a discussion where some damage has been already done by haters.

Now, everyone can consider TF as they see fit, IDGAF. But as already mentioned - if hater/lover never actually had one, I encourage them to shut their mouths.


----------



## ModRQC

ModRQC said:


> But I don't see TF appreciators strolling around creating posts to just give love to their knives. They usually pop up in a discussion where some damage has been already done by haters.



And this is true to such extent that I discover every week a few respectable members that, contrary to my expectations seeing how they wouldn't usually participate into the banter, advice and else, do own one or more TF and actually get in the melee with appreciation - not fanboyism, pure unaltered personal appreciation for what it is to them.


----------



## Brian Weekley

Starting the process of learning for myself. After some use I’ll have an opinion about my TF’s. I’m looking for a Denka Gyuto to add as well so I will have used a cross section of TF’s. Then and only then will I feel confident to state my opinion on the knives. Even then my opinion is only MY opinion. Others may see it differently and that’s great too. IMO exchanging ideas is the true value of KKF.


----------



## DavidPF

frombaltimore said:


> IF you want to vehemently praise/degrade the knife’s perfomance, fit and finish, etc publicly.


I don't want to praise or degrade the knife at all. Criticizing the maker's very inconsistent work on very high-priced knives doesn't require individual experience with any knife - in fact, personal experience with a handful of his knives only clouds people's judgement - they think all the rest will be just like theirs, and in fact they aren't. Until you've personally carefully examined and used at least hundreds of his knives (thousands would be better), you have a _less_ accurate point of view than someone who has never seen one but has read a lot of reports and reviews.
Unless (as I mentioned before) the majority of the reviewers are lying. I don't see any reason for them to lie.

Buying a high-priced knife and having to hope you get a good one, is the thing I'm criticizing. Not a kind of knife, but a kind of maker.


----------



## DavidPF

DitmasPork said:


> Aim high. It's like cars, if one can afford a porche as a first car, then why not?


Porsche comes with a warranty. If you get a bad one, they pay to fix or replace it.


----------



## tcmx3

DavidPF said:


> Porsche comes with a warranty. If you get a bad one, they pay to fix or replace it.



I largely agree with Ditmas but yeah, the Porsche analogy has come up more than once and it would be difficult to find two more different companies.

modern Porsche is renowned for fit&finish, reliability, and flexibility in your buying options. I think people have some idea in their mind of Porsche as the same company that was making mobile funeral homes for bankers in the 80s instead of the company that makes the Cayenne.


----------



## DitmasPork

DavidPF said:


> Porsche comes with a warranty. If you get a bad one, they pay to fix or replace it.


I’m assuming that many people buying a TF understand that it’s pretty rustic, f&f not the objective, there’s always variances with handmade knives. TFs are not for everyone—same with any knife.


----------



## DitmasPork

tcmx3 said:


> I largely agree with Ditmas but yeah, the Porsche analogy has come up more than once and it would be difficult to find two more different companies.
> 
> modern Porsche is renowned for fit&finish, reliability, and flexibility in your buying options. I think people have some idea in their mind of Porsche as the same company that was making mobile funeral homes for bankers in the 80s instead of the company that makes the Cayenne.


Ha! Didn’t know about Porche’s mobile funeral homes!


----------



## DavidPF

big_adventure said:


> Not too bad at all, actually, given how good the tools are if you don't get shafted.


There are exactly two reasons why you might get shafted: the maker is satisfied when a lot of people get shafted, or the maker can't tell the difference between good work and bad work.


----------



## Barmoley

big_adventure said:


> Hitohira Togashi Yohei Honyaki White 1 240.



Beautiful knife, congrats.


----------



## DavidPF

DitmasPork said:


> I’m assuming that many people buying a TF understand that it’s pretty rustic, f&f not the objective, there’s always variances with handmade knives.


Rustic work of the kind that has a significant chance of being functionally defective, difficult to use, or require major repair work when brand new, is not what you're describing. You might be accurately describing the work of other makers who do a better job - or even ones who do a worse job in the workshop but who take a good look at the finished knives and don't put their mistakes up for sale at full price.


----------



## Barmoley

panda said:


> not to mention the most cramped interiors


But throw a chevy small block 350 and transmition into it and what a car. Ofcourse, to do a brake job requires taking half the car apart and older ones had 2 fuel tanks where you had to push a button to switch, but still.....


----------



## DavidPF

I'm being completely serious and not sarcastic with this idea that just occurred to me: Maybe the point is that there are people who enjoy the excitement of basically a several hundred dollar lottery ticket - maybe that's exactly the point, and not an accident.


----------



## Brian Weekley

I’ve owned a few Porsche’s over the years. Nice cars ... my 356S had a miss I could never sort out. 911’s were great but still oversteered more than I liked. I was told that 30-40k in performance suspension work would reduce the oversteer to manageable levels. 928 was a dog with a capital DOG! Great cars, though, and I have fond memories of all of them. Better suited to roads in Europe but hey ... each to their own. Have had a few Corvettes including a 91 ZR1. With the ZR1, I could balance a loonie (CDN silver dollar) on edge on a cold engine. Superb engineering ... I loved it! My Porsche owning friend crapped all over Corvettes every chance he got. He had never owned one but he had a friend who had a friend ... you know the deal. Funny thing ... when he got back into racing he bought a fancy Z06, much modified for the track, and became a Corvette lover. It’s all about perspective and personal experience.


----------



## DavidPF

Brian Weekley said:


> crapped all over Corvettes every chance he got.


For what he thought was poor design? Or because he thought too many of them were coming off the line defective and GM wasn't honouring the warranty?


----------



## sliceanddicebaby




----------



## Brian Weekley

I guess the point is that he didn’t have an original thought at all. The best he could muster was the unverified experience of a friend of a friend. No matter what you are talking about there will be haters. That’s just human nature for some to hate things they have no personal experience with... or to be kind the haters often justify their opinions on the unverified experience of friends of friends ... or to be charitable on a very small third party sample size.

I don’t crap on Corvettes, Porsche’s or TF’s. The point is that all have their followings and all have their followers despite the inevitable strengths and weaknesses they have.

My approach is to find out for myself in the belief that I can make a judgement based on MY experiences and preferences. What I do think is that making blanket statements about how crappy this or that is based on no personal experience is .... well basically rude to all the people who think otherwise. But that’s just my approach and as far as I’m concerned haters are free to espouse their hate. I’m always free to click on and go about finding out for myself.

It is interesting that when my friend got back into racing (in Vancouver BTW) he chose to trust his life to a Corvette rather than one of his racing Porsche’s. The result is that in my eyes he became a hippocrite who really didn’t know sheep **** from cherry stones when it came to cars. But that’s just my opinion. Others may see it differently and that’s fine with me.


----------



## DavidPF

You said a lot but didn't bother to answer.

It's not necessary to have owned a car that keeps showing up at dealers with serious defects. Hearing about it fourth hand and criticizing the maker for defective cars is perfectly valid.


----------



## Benuser

Opinions who aren't based on personal experience have little added value to me. I want to hear one's expectations and experience, as precise as possible. Not opinions and blunt statements repeated on and on.


----------



## Barmoley

DavidPF said:


> There are exactly two reasons why you might get shafted: the maker is satisfied when a lot of people get shafted, or the maker can't tell the difference between good work and bad work.





DavidPF said:


> You said a lot but didn't bother to answer.
> 
> It's not necessary to have owned a car that keeps showing up at dealers with serious defects. Hearing about it fourth hand and criticizing the maker for defective cars is perfectly valid.





You are missing the point and lacking your own knowledge and experience, yet keep on pushing your opinion as the correct one without any basis for it. You keep on insulting people who are much more experienced than you and are trying to be nice.

You have no experience with TFs and you have very little experience with Japanese style kitchen knives, by your own admission and yet you are arguing as if you were an expert on the subject. I understand that with internet we are all experts on all subjects just because we read a bunch of reviews, but some things need to be experienced still.

Price is relative all expensive knives if they sell are priced correctly. If TF sells most of their knives then 2 things are true.

1. Their prices are correct.
2. Their products are good.

It would be different if there wouldn’t be any alternatives, but there are many. Yet TF sells most of the knives they produce. Don’t you think they would fix all these ”problems” you keep on talking about if enough customers complained? They would go out of business if all the problems were real problems. We are not talking about 1 guy making 1 knife a year and tricking a few people with crappy knives. TF has been selling many, many knives for many years now.

All handmade knives come with variations. If you want consistence get some Henckels, wusthof or any other mass produced knife, they will be much better.

There is clearly something about TFs, corvettes, Porsches, etc that make some people like them. Whatever it is it might not be for you and you can choose not to buy. What I don’t understand is trying to convince everyone that your decision not to buy is the correct one and that there is something wrong with others for choosing otherwise. All that without any experience of your own, just because you read something somewhere.


----------



## Benuser

Brian Weekley said:


> View attachment 116985
> 
> 
> Starting the process of learning for myself. After some use I’ll have an opinion about my TF’s. I’m looking for a Denka Gyuto to add as well so I will have used a cross section of TF’s. Then and only then will I feel confident to state my opinion on the knives. Even then my opinion is only MY opinion. Others may see it differently and that’s great too. IMO exchanging ideas is the true value of KKF.


More precisely, exchanging experience. It may take some time before you get used to a new knife, especially if it is one with a strong own character. First use, adapting without being aware of it your grip and technique, sharpening and touching up a few times. Let me speak for myself: it often takes quite some time before I can call a knife mine. As with a lot of things in life, the first impression is wrong, or at least incomplete. It says more about what you are used to than about what you're actually handling. Give it a fair chance.


----------



## tcmx3

Benuser said:


> More precisely, exchanging experience. It may take some time before you get used to a new knife, especially if it is one with a strong own character. First use, adapting without being aware of it your grip and technique, sharpening and touching up a few times. Let me speak for myself: it often takes quite some time before I can call a knife mine. As with a lot of things in life, the first impression is wrong, or at least incomplete. It says more about what you are used to than about what you're actually handling. Give it a fair chance.



100x this.

a review of anything someone just pulled out of the box an hour ago is useless; live with a new toy for a while, get over the preconceptions and the honeymoon and think about it.


----------



## nyc

A TF will always be “problematic” if one is expecting a high level of finishing. And if one expects that, then they are barking up the wrong tree. TFs look the way they do because the makers view the kitchen knife as a tool (which is what it is). TF owners get this, while a good proportion of buyers/collectors seem unable to wrap their heads around this idea of the knife as a tool. Possibly, this could be because some still hang onto the notion that kitchen cutlery must be reflective of the artisanal aspects of sword making.
@DitmasPork was spot on when he said (more than once) that TFs aren’t for everyone. For me, I only ever ask two questions when it comes to knives: how sharp and how long does it last? Because personally, the only things I prize is sharpness and it’s retention. And TF is uncompromising in offering these two things. As an aside, here’s my latest Denka that arrived just 3 days ago. Ugly isn’t it? Ridden with “issues”.


----------



## Corradobrit1

nyc said:


> A TF will always be “problematic” if one is expecting a high level of finishing. And if one expects that, then they are barking up the wrong tree. TFs look the way they do because the makers view the kitchen knife as a tool (which is what it is). TF owners get this, while a good proportion of buyers/collectors seem unable to wrap their heads around this idea of the knife as a tool. Possibly, this could be because some still hang onto the notion that kitchen cutlery must be reflective of the artisanal aspects of sword making.
> @DitmasPork was spot on when he said (more than once) that TFs aren’t for everyone. For me, I only ever ask two questions when it comes to knives: how sharp and how long does it last? Because personally, the only things I prize is sharpness and it’s retention. And TF is uncompromising in offering these two things. As an aside, here’s my latest Denka that arrived just 3 days ago. Ugly isn’t it? Ridden with “issues”.
> 
> View attachment 117043


Did you ask them ease the spine?


----------



## nyc

Corradobrit1 said:


> Did you ask them ease the spine?



Nope, everything as is. I also don’t do any work on my knives irrespective of how they arrive.


----------



## ModRQC

Yeah and after losing once, I bet on that horse again. What folly.

But hey, wait... it was no bad horse, in fact it repaid my full investment, which is more than I could say of... just about any other horse so far. So am not rooting to cover losses - there is no loss. Not betting again because I don't get the race - I just missed the damn horse!

I'm not claiming all you've read was a lie. It was a story - only the state of the knife standing true to the story, if presented in details enough to observe it. Then again, presented by who, knowing what, driven under which circumstances? 

So far I didn't manage to cut anything with either words or pictures. It takes a knife to do that. So instead of getting on your high horses, almost suggesting there is a conspiracy as to hush bad TF units as you are, just take a breath and realize it does you no good, amounts to no getting closer to the thing, to even participate in deep in such a conversation.


----------



## Etsoh

In the end of the day, they're just knives guys!!!


----------



## ModRQC

Etsoh said:


> In the end of the day, they're just knives guys!!!



But what about the morning after?

If they were just knives, than it's a rather weird place to subscribe to, is it? It's rather weird that Katos and Shigs sell and resell at their usual upgoing prices. And I am not particularly pumped out, on the contrary, once again rather amused. It's just that reading someone that has read something and from there basically says all those owning TFs have been had without admitting to the truth, while supposing they're making whatever he's read into a lie... rather seems nonsensical to me to say the very, very least.

A hat without a head is all there is to it. A borrowed hat, on top of nothing.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Etsoh said:


> In the end of the day, they're just knives guys!!!


----------



## Etsoh

ModRQC said:


> But what about the morning after?
> 
> If they were just knives, than it's a rather weird place to subscribe to, is it? It's rather weird that Katos and Shigs sell and resell at their usual upgoing prices. And I am not particularly pumped out, on the contrary, once again rather amused. It's just that reading someone that has read something and from there basically says all those owning TFs have been had without admitting to the truth, while supposing they're making whatever he's read into a lie... rather seems nonsensical to me to say the very, very least.
> 
> A hat without a head is all there is to it. A borrowed hat, on top of nothing.


 I'm subscribed to here mainly for the bst really lol. I just read these kinds of threads to see how many people get themselves into a bunch. Like honestly, it's just a knife at the end of the day. Prices are determined by the consumers imo. I own a mab and I've put in work to get it the way I want it, Wabi sabi or whatever. Everyone's got a way they like to float their goats I guess. I can get by with a cheap victorinox at work, but I like the fact that a probably angry Japanese man who doesn't really care all that much compared to how much people care on the forums do made my knife


----------



## Etsoh

ModRQC said:


> But what about the morning after?
> 
> If they were just knives, than it's a rather weird place to subscribe to, is it? It's rather weird that Katos and Shigs sell and resell at their usual upgoing prices. And I am not particularly pumped out, on the contrary, once again rather amused. It's just that reading someone that has read something and from there basically says all those owning TFs have been had without admitting to the truth, while supposing they're making whatever he's read into a lie... rather seems nonsensical to me to say the very, very least.
> 
> A hat without a head is all there is to it. A borrowed hat, on top of nothing.


Also kinda makes me wonder if people that spend upwards of 800 or more on a knife actually use it regularly or just to collect. I like nice looking knives and all but spending a large sum of cash for a blade isn't really something I'm into lol. Then again, if I spent 1000 on a knife, I definitely won't bring it to work, but then what was the point of buying a knife


----------



## big_adventure

There is something I've noticed in some of the TF threads: TF defenders arrive with shields up and weapons hot. 

The point that it is "unacceptable to sell 800 dollar knives with inconsistent grinds and screwed up HT" is valid, even if the person stating it hasn't used one, even if the person hearing it doesn't agree with it, and it isn't even an attack on what TF does well. TF defenders, however, seem to take it as personally insulting and come up with elaborate comparisons to effectively personally insult the people they see as attacking them. But a comment that is negative on what TF legitimately has a rep for not really caring about isn't a personal insult on someone who likes TF knives.

Now, this is totally apart from the fact that TF sells and sells well. 1970's Jag E-types sold, and they were hot flaming garbage in most aspects of car ownership. People are willing to do that for things they love, even if other people don't necessarily agree with those points.

Some of the points that get brought up:

1. Artisan knives have variance. Yes, this is absolutely true. However, for whatever reason, TF is basically the _only_ high-end maker who gets away with that _level_ of variance. Shig, Kato, Konosuke, Sukenari, Takada, etc. don't do this to their customers. A couple of them _could_ probably (any Shig, any Kaiju, will sell for whatever price someone slaps on them), but none of them do. When they stamp their _kanji_ into the blade, they are saying "my name is worth something." And I've never heard of a single TF-level horror story about any of those. TF... doesn't mean that or care about that.

2. TF knives aren't for everyone. This is a classic BS-dump in debate tactics. It's a way of denigrating a valid point (TF knives have inconsistencies) based on a point that can't be proven, doesn't exist or verges on belief over observation. Someone who loves TF knives and has 10 of them shouldn't feel the need to feel defensive about their choices to people on the Internet in any way that requires that kind of argument, at least, that's my opinion.

3. The sales point above: the idea that the problems don't exist or don't "matter" because TF sells well and for very high prices. I address that above, somewhat, but let's just say that sales and practical value of an item aren't necessarily at all correlated.

Points that I've never seen anyone argue against:

1. TF knives, at least ones that don't have a horrifying defect out of the box, are spectacular cutters. 

2. TF Denkas, at least ones that don't have a horrifying defect out of the box, are spectacular sellers as well. If you care about resale (and frankly, I don't at all, I'll never sell one of my blades), Denkas are perfect.

DavidPF's point is absolutely as valid as anyone else's, despite him never having owned a TF. 

This is so tl;dr already. But...

If I'm ever again in Tokyo, I will absolutely go to the shop, handle some Denkas if I can, and, if I find one that's well made, buy it and bring it home. Too many people who know more than I do about knives and who have experienced many more knives than I have speak too highly of them for me not to do that. OTOH, there is no way in hell I'd buy one from a random vendor on the Internet, simply because the horror stories are far too prevalent to not have some basis in reality.


----------



## Carl Kotte

Hey @big_adventure I might actually have a TF for you. It’s veeeeeery expensive. But on the upside it’s straight (now!), and once you buy it you open up the door to legitimately criticising TF. No one can take the close encounter experience away from you. Think of the possibilities?!


----------



## Garm

DavidPF said:


> Until you've personally carefully examined and used at least hundreds of his knives (thousands would be better), you have a _less_ accurate point of view than someone who has never seen one but has read a lot of reports and reviews.


I'm really trying hard to understand what you're saying here. 
If I buy a knife or three from a maker, based on mentions, reviews and reports from other users' _personal_ _experience_ with knives from that maker, use them for a given amount of time in my own kitchen, then how accurate would my point of view of the knives I bought be?
What about each of the reviews and opinions that led me to my purchase, the same ones you've read? How many knives from that maker would they have had to use for their opinions and reviews of their own knives to be valid? 
The people who buy knives from a certain maker, at least members of this forum, have most likely read just as many opinions, reports, and reviews as you have. 
Perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding what you're trying to say.


----------



## big_adventure

Carl Kotte said:


> Hey @big_adventure I might actually have a TF for you. It’s veeeeeery expensive. But on the upside it’s straight (now!), and once you buy it you open up the door to legitimately criticising TF. No one can take the close encounter experience away from you. Think of the possibilities?!



My kids are asking why I won't stop smiling an laughing now. They already thought I was crazy, but this confirms it. Thanks. Thanks a lot.  

Just elaborating on my points above - I'm not actually criticizing TF, TF lovers or TF haters. I'm more or less standing on the middle ground. I would love a 240 Denka. Given the person I am, I'm relatively sure I'll have one someday. I may or may not love it, may or may not think it's good or bad, but I'll wait to judge until I've got it in my hands. It's just that I will absolutely not buy it sight unseen (or mostly unseen), based on the myriad reports that exist of terrifyingly bad QC. Would TF send out a Denka with screwed up HT? Sure! With a critically bad overgrind? Absolutely! With a screwed up photo on the box? Whoa, whoa, whoa - let's not get crazy. /s


----------



## Bear

I've been reading though this thread with just one question, after criticizing these knives before trying how many have changed there minds after they have given them a shot, maybe even after spending three days grinding, polishing and bending back.


----------



## Midsummer

Garm said:


> I'm really trying hard to understand what you're saying here.
> If I buy a knife or three from a maker, based on mentions, reviews and reports from other users' _personal_ _experience_ with knives from that maker, use them for a given amount of time in my own kitchen, then how accurate would my point of view of the knives I bought be?
> What about each of the reviews and opinions that led me to my purchase, the same ones you've read? How many knives from that maker would they have had to use for their opinions and reviews of their own knives to be valid?
> The people who buy knives from a certain maker, at least members of this forum, have most likely read just as many opinions, reports, and reviews as you have.
> Perhaps I'm completely misunderstanding what you're trying to say.


I was thinking the same thing. Particularly the "The people who buy knives from a certain maker, at least members of this forum, have most likely read just as many opinions, reports, and reviews as you have." portion. And I thought maybe those members may have read even more.

I have found that making a commitment to spend hard earned cash will make me extra diligent. I thought most were like that.


----------



## DitmasPork

ModRQC said:


> But what about the morning after?
> 
> If they were just knives, than it's a rather weird place to subscribe to, is it? It's rather weird that Katos and Shigs sell and resell at their usual upgoing prices. And I am not particularly pumped out, on the contrary, once again rather amused. It's just that reading someone that has read something and from there basically says all those owning TFs have been had without admitting to the truth, while supposing they're making whatever he's read into a lie... rather seems nonsensical to me to say the very, very least.
> 
> A hat without a head is all there is to it. A borrowed hat, on top of nothing.



Just knives, just tools. They can also be beautifully crafted, fashionable piece of kitchen bling; inspirational high-performance knives; a piece of history by an iconic and important Japanese knife maker. Air Jordans are just shoes.

Do you own or have tried a TF denka? Honest question.

Denkas have a vocal cult following for good reason—they’re very good gyutos. Visually, denkas almost as recognizable as Nenox bone handled chef’s knives.

It baffles me why there’s a fixation, an obsessiveness with TF denkas being over-priced. There’re not a bang-for-buck knife, value shoppers need look elsewhere. I’ve no issues with TF prices, his stature as a maker justifies the price, he’s earned it—denkas are also distinctive, high-performance knives.

TF has been in business long enough to understand needs of his clientele—the best performing knife they’re capable of making, albeit a rather utilitarian standard of f&f. Do one needs a denka—it’s a luxury item (as with any +$500 gyuto); owning a denka a privilege, not a right or entitlement. If denkas cost $300 and everyone had one, I’d probably pass on them. However, denkas are one of my best performing gyutos.

Great thing about buying gyutos these days is being spoilt for choices. Many options for nearly all budgets. Most denka buyers I know, understand what they’re about.


----------



## btbyrd

Bear said:


> I've been reading though this thread with just one question, after criticizing these knives before trying how many have changed there minds after they have given them a shot, maybe even after spending three days grinding, polishing and bending back.



I don't understand the question. Isn't the thing that people complain about the fact that TF knives might require three days of grind-fixing and straghtening and possible rehandling? I don't think anyone complains that these knives don't cut well or don't have exceptional steel. They complain of inconsistencies in manufacturing in the form of overgrinds, non-straight blades, and janky western handles. They complain of buying a $900 project knife that has worse fit and finish than a $90 Tojiro. And they complain of the 240 gyuto costing way more than the 210 for no reason. I can't imagine that someone who criticized Denkas, but then bought one that had to be fixed, would somehow magically regard his original complaints as ungrounded or ill-founded after confirming that the knives cut well and sharpen beautifully.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

I dunno, I've got a Masakage Kujira that i wanted for a year or two before i finally was able to get one. At the time it was one of the most expensive knives I had bought and $500 for a 210 is still a lot. There's a little spot where a piece of the cladding fell out. It was ground fat and convex like a sword; iirc i said i thought at first it was like a good Takeda but it turned out to be more like a bad Takeda. Then i thinned it out, spent a few days on it, plus some more time polishing and it still doesn't look like how it should; definitely remember thinking to myself a few times "wth, i bought this for this much and now have to do all this BS?" But once i got it right it's a real pleasure to use all day, one of my favorite 210s, people still think it looks awesome. Which is good because given the aforementioned issues the resale value would be much less than a comparable TF. Otoh, nobody is going on about how Kagaeura is the greatest smith and Kujiras are the greatest knives...

Also I'm at a spot where I consider knives as things to be continually worked on and maintained and adjusted; if i wanted to pull it out of the box and go it might be a different story. And to be fair, any other consumer good or piece of equipment at a comparable percentile price range, I'd expect it to not need any of that.


----------



## DitmasPork

Wabi-sabi roll call. When seeking that wonderful, characteristic handmadeness—gotta accept the inherent imperfections, unpredictable nature of the artisans hands and humanness of technique.
FWIW, pretty much all denka owners I know have found them to work fine straight outta the box—low spots ain’t an issue unless obsessed about sharpening a perfect blade road; wonky, rough handle work doesn’t affect how a knife cuts, if it does, then get used to it, or sell it.
In the grand scheme of things, $850 for a 240 denka not an exorbitant price—many a knife enthusiasts have blown considerably more than that blowing money acquiring piles of lesser, bang-for-buck gyutos.
Jiro is another maker that receives a lot of complaints at being overpriced, but mine was worth every penny. Beautiful and a great performer.


----------



## WiriWiri

The Jiro comparison seems a bit instructive if anything. Jiro seems to do everything himself, with an apparent history of diligently studying with other craftsmen to try and better his work. His calligraphy and engraving alone give a much greater sense of care and personal involvement with his knives, whilst he continually seems to be be attempting to improve his product - new (not to tinkered around with) finishes more recently for example.

The same, charitably, can’t be said of TF, as the same issues seem to have been flying about since I was a veritable J-knife nipper. Overblown or not, too many good people have had bad experiences for me to ignore every report.

I like my TF Mabs and suspect I would really like a Denka. However I‘ve put the decision off for the best part of a decade, not because I’m hugely angry or animated about TF, but perhaps more because I can‘t help feeling the nagging feeling that there may be other makers out there who may be slightly more deserving.


----------



## Barmoley

big_adventure said:


> My kids are asking why I won't stop smiling an laughing now. They already thought I was crazy, but this confirms it. Thanks. Thanks a lot.
> 
> Just elaborating on my points above - I'm not actually criticizing TF, TF lovers or TF haters. I'm more or less standing on the middle ground. I would love a 240 Denka. Given the person I am, I'm relatively sure I'll have one someday. I may or may not love it, may or may not think it's good or bad, but I'll wait to judge until I've got it in my hands. It's just that I will absolutely not buy it sight unseen (or mostly unseen), based on the myriad reports that exist of terrifyingly bad QC. Would TF send out a Denka with screwed up HT? Sure! With a critically bad overgrind? Absolutely! With a screwed up photo on the box? Whoa, whoa, whoa - let's not get crazy. /s


I try to stay away from TF discussions because there is no rhyme or reason to them in most cases. I stepped into this one because I am just tired of some people, even some I respect very much mentioning how crappy and overpriced TFs are in threads even unrelated to TF at all. It is done in a matter of fact passing by comment usually. In a style of "oh you got a bad knife, sucks, but at least it is not as bad as TF" or "well that's expensive, but at least not as overpriced as TF". The threads usually have nothing to do with TF, noone asked about it. Some of these people have been burnt, some read something somewhere. Your response is a perfect example of what bugs me. Twice now you've said that TFs might come with terrifyingly bad QC that there are mirriads of bad reports of this and that Denka's might come with bad HT. On the internet when you repeat something enough times it seems to become true. I've never heard of a badly heat treated Denka, I am sure they exist, but this is one of the main things they are famous for excellent heat treat of blue super and white 1. Now that you wrote it though some new members will read your posts in a year or two, see that you are a respected, long term member and think. This guy said denkas come with bad HT and mirriads of other problems he must know something since he clearly knows what he is talking about... You see this is the problem. I am not picking on you specifically or trying to be mean and rude, but the reality is you don't know what you are talking about on this particular topic. You are using hyperbole to make your point, but you are doing a disservice to the community. We seem to have this notion that all opinions have equal value, but they don't. My opinion on cooking can't be as valuable as a pro chefs, not even close. My opinion on sharpening or making knives is not as valuable as a maker's or pro sharpener's. It has some value if I have some experience, but it is nowhere close to their. Your opinion on TF can't be as valuable as someone's whom at least used one. You say you still want to buy one, this I don't get, according to you they are nothing but trouble and if you can check over grinds and such, heat treat is not something you can check at the store. 

It is just tiresome to read TF bashing in unrelated threads, especially by people that have never seen one or used one just because they read the same account repeated a million times and now believe that they know what they are talking about. If you haven't used one please, please stop giving people advice on them.


----------



## DitmasPork

WiriWiri said:


> The Jiro comparison seems a bit instructive if anything. Jiro seems to do everything himself, with an apparent history of diligently studying with other craftsmen to try and better his work. His calligraphy and engraving alone give a much greater sense of care and personal involvement with his knives, whilst he continually seems to be be attempting to improve his product - new (not to tinkered around with) finishes more recently for example.
> 
> The same, charitably, can’t be said of TF, as the same issues seem to have been flying about since I was a veritable J-knife nipper. Overblown or not, too many good people have had bad experiences for me to ignore every report.
> 
> I like my TF Mabs and suspect I would really like a Denka. However I‘ve put the decision off for the best part of a decade, not because I’m hugely angry or animated about TF, but perhaps more because I can‘t help feeling the nagging feeling that there may be other makers out there who may be slightly more deserving.



Agree. Jiros packaging is exceptionally well designed, each specific to the numbered knife. End of day—for me at least—it’s just packaging, buried amongst the pile of other, more generic boxes gathering dust.

Raquin by contrast, comes wrapped in paper—albeit with a branded towel and brrrrap biscuit.

Really depends on what one wants. A couple of years ago I commissioned a Kippington work pony gyuto for about half the cost of a 240 denka—much contact and chatting with Kip about what I envisioned for the knife—a different experience altogether.

I dig the diversity of the market. Sometimes I love chasing a custom; others times the relaxed action of buying off-the-shelf. Some makers are known for superb f&f; ht; fancy handles; exotic steels; whatever.

My advice to anyone who thinks TF is overpriced, or a QC gamble—is not to get one. That said, I have some knives with perfect f&f and beautiful handles, that I rarely use, and don’t perform half as well as my denka. I’ve no doubt that there’re bad denkas out there tho.


----------



## DitmasPork

Barmoley said:


> I try to stay away from TF discussions because there is no rhyme or reason to them in most cases. I stepped into this one because I am just tired of some people, even some I respect very much mentioning how crappy and overpriced TFs are in threads even unrelated to TF at all. It is done in a matter of fact passing by comment usually. In a style of "oh you got a bad knife, sucks, but at least it is not as bad as TF" or "well that's expensive, but at least not as overpriced as TF". The threads usually have nothing to do with TF, noone asked about it. Some of these people have been burnt, some read something somewhere. Your response is a perfect example of what bugs me. Twice now you've said that TFs might come with terrifyingly bad QC that there are mirriads of bad reports of this and that Denka's might come with bad HT. On the internet when you repeat something enough times it seems to become true. I've never heard of a badly heat treated Denka, I am sure they exist, but this is one of the main things they are famous for excellent heat treat of blue super and white 1. Now that you wrote it though some new members will read your posts in a year or two, see that you are a respected, long term member and think. This guy said denkas come with bad HT and mirriads of other problems he must know something since he clearly knows what he is talking about... You see this is the problem. I am not picking on you specifically or trying to be mean and rude, but the reality is you don't know what you are talking about on this particular topic. You are using hyperbole to make your point, but you are doing a disservice to the community. We seem to have this notion that all opinions have equal value, but they don't. My opinion on cooking can't be as valuable as a pro chefs, not even close. My opinion on sharpening or making knives is not as valuable as a maker's or pro sharpener's. It has some value if I have some experience, but it is nowhere close to their. Your opinion on TF can't be as valuable as someone's whom at least used one. You say you still want to buy one, this I don't get, according to you they are nothing but trouble and if you can check over grinds and such, heat treat is not something you can check at the store.
> 
> It is just tiresome to read TF bashing in unrelated threads, especially by people that have never seen one or used one just because they read the same account repeated a million times and now believe that they know what they are talking about. If you haven't used one please, please stop giving people advice on them.


Hahahahaha! You try to stay away from TF discussions? Don’t stay away, you’re such a good, reasonable voice IMO!


----------



## MowgFace

DitmasPork said:


> In the grand scheme of things, $850 for a 240 denka not an exorbitant price—m*any a knife enthusiasts have blown considerably more than that blowing money acquiring piles of lesser, bang-for-buck gyutos.*



HAHA. Shots fired. 100% guilty of this.


----------



## Bear

> " I can't imagine that someone who criticized Denkas, but then bought one that had to be fixed, would somehow magically regard his original complaints as ungrounded or ill-founded after confirming that the knives cut well and sharpen beautifully.


Not ungrounded or ill-founded definitely valid, but there is something special about the steel, it does have a unique feeling. If not for the fact that I did get a decent deal on my Denka I would not have ever tried it, that was my condition going into it and the choice that I made, it's not like I didn't know what I was getting into. I wouldn't call myself a big fanboy but it was a good decision.


----------



## Bigbbaillie

I don't understand why there is so much polarization on this forum about this maker in particular. So many of the same complaints being repeated over and over by people who have experienced some bad apples or just heard about it. Personally I've never owned a TF, however I do believe there has to be a reason they command the prices they do. Yea it might be driven by hype, but we aren't talking about Supreme here. Plenty of people love their TF's for plenty of reasons, "wabi-sabi" maybe being one, the character, the notch, the heat treat etc... Just because other people don't appreciate those qualities as much does not mean it's not worth it to another person.
Even if you do need to put work in on the knife grinding down bevels or doing 10 minutes of sanding on choil/spine, I personally don't see that as a huge deal. It might seem silly to others who don't like working on knives but I think to a lot of people, that is part of the charm of this hobby. I personally like working on knives and being able to feel like I can add to the performance/aesthetics of a knife. If anything it's pointless to do work on really cheap knives. I don't want to spend 10 hours grinding down a bevel on a cheap stainless knife that I'm never going to use but spend that time on a nicer knife and you have something you can really be proud of.
I don't even know if I would ever want a TF, but I really think it's hard to put objective value on a knife. Some people are going to be happiest with a Kiwi, and others with a Denka or Honyaki. If anything I think it would be easier to argue that it's completely ridiculous to spend over $200-$300 on a knife PERIOD. At least if you are going to judge based on quantifiable differences alone. Although I don't think many on this forum, including myself, really care about that...


----------



## tcmx3

Bigbbaillie said:


> Even if you do need to put work in on the knife grinding down bevels or doing 10 minutes of sanding on choil/spine, I personally don't see that as a huge deal. It might seem silly to others who don't like working on knives but I think to a lot of people, that is part of the charm of this hobby. I personally like working on knives and being able to feel like I can add to the performance/aesthetics of a knife.



in general the premise is that you are supposed to be paying progressively more money for progressively more attention to detail. ie to command a high price those things should be done since you are, in theory anyway, paying for the labor and experience of the maker more than the materials unless the material in questions has some sort of huge associated cost (i.e. super high wear resistant steels dont only take longer to grind they chew up equipment). I suppose you can add into that scarcity, though by looking at TF stocks, they dont seem anything like as scarce as a Kato or Shig

if people want to argue that TF has some ability that is unique to him, that's fine.

Im happy to work on a knife but my expectations for how much Im willing to do are contingent on the price of the knife in question. on a 250 dollar knife if I have to do some bevel work it's nbd, on a 500 dollar knife Im unhappy and above that Im not into it. but that's just me I cant tell anyone else how to value that stuff.

I do think it's valid to point out that there are alternatives, however. I have largely the same opinion about all of the very hyped up knives; there are too many equivalently good options to justify paying huge prices on a gyuto that isnt bringing something immensely labor-intensive to the party, e.g. Honyakis, crazy finishes, rare steels, etc. JMO.


----------



## Corradobrit1

WiriWiri said:


> The Jiro comparison seems a bit instructive if anything. Jiro seems to do everything himself, with an apparent history of diligently studying with other craftsmen to try and better his work. His calligraphy and engraving alone give a much greater sense of care and personal involvement with his knives, whilst he continually seems to be be attempting to improve his product - new (not to tinkered around with) finishes more recently for example.
> 
> The same, charitably, can’t be said of TF, as the same issues seem to have been flying about since I was a veritable J-knife nipper. Overblown or not, too many good people have had bad experiences for me to ignore every report.
> 
> I like my TF Mabs and suspect I would really like a Denka. However I‘ve put the decision off for the best part of a decade, not because I’m hugely angry or animated about TF, but perhaps more because I can‘t help feeling the nagging feeling that there may be other makers out there who may be slightly more deserving.


Jiro is a completely different market. TF is high volume in comparison to Jiro's output. And he works with W#1 so HT prowess is not a fair comparison with similarly priced SS clad Denka. Plus Jiro's knives are brutes, in the nicest possible sense. If you don't like heavy knives you're SOL.


----------



## Rangen

Bigbbaillie said:


> I don't understand why there is so much polarization on this forum about this maker in particular.



I think maybe I do, or at least I have a guess: that it comes from different people having very different views of knives.

This is a close up picture, from BST, of a Shiraki Mt Fuji.







Plenty of people here would react very positively to this picture. It's stunningly beautiful. Many would covet this knife. I do not. It is too beautiful to use, or at least for me to use. I would mess up its beauty. It could only be art for me, and I don't buy knives that can't be what I buy knives for, as tools.

This is a close-up picture of my Denka Nakiri.




Crude grind marks on the blade. Inadvertent grinding on the bolster. Many here would be put off by this, and not consider buying such a knife. And yet this knife, which I bought after handling it in person, speaks to me in a way that the beautiful one does not. It is an extraordinary tool, taking an edge that's as good as any knife I own, and better than most. It cuts like a dream, and retains its edge very very well.

I could choose to make it prettier someday, but I probably won't. It's an awesome tool, and that's why I bought it.


----------



## big_adventure

Barmoley said:


> I try to stay away from TF discussions because there is no rhyme or reason to them in most cases. I stepped into this one because I am just tired of some people, even some I respect very much mentioning how crappy and overpriced TFs are in threads even unrelated to TF at all. It is done in a matter of fact passing by comment usually. In a style of "oh you got a bad knife, sucks, but at least it is not as bad as TF" or "well that's expensive, but at least not as overpriced as TF". The threads usually have nothing to do with TF, noone asked about it. Some of these people have been burnt, some read something somewhere. Your response is a perfect example of what bugs me. Twice now you've said that TFs might come with terrifyingly bad QC that there are mirriads of bad reports of this and that Denka's might come with bad HT. On the internet when you repeat something enough times it seems to become true. I've never heard of a badly heat treated Denka, I am sure they exist, but this is one of the main things they are famous for excellent heat treat of blue super and white 1. Now that you wrote it though some new members will read your posts in a year or two, see that you are a respected, long term member and think. This guy said denkas come with bad HT and mirriads of other problems he must know something since he clearly knows what he is talking about... You see this is the problem. I am not picking on you specifically or trying to be mean and rude, but the reality is you don't know what you are talking about on this particular topic. You are using hyperbole to make your point, but you are doing a disservice to the community. We seem to have this notion that all opinions have equal value, but they don't. My opinion on cooking can't be as valuable as a pro chefs, not even close. My opinion on sharpening or making knives is not as valuable as a maker's or pro sharpener's. It has some value if I have some experience, but it is nowhere close to their. Your opinion on TF can't be as valuable as someone's whom at least used one. You say you still want to buy one, this I don't get, according to you they are nothing but trouble and if you can check over grinds and such, heat treat is not something you can check at the store.
> 
> It is just tiresome to read TF bashing in unrelated threads, especially by people that have never seen one or used one just because they read the same account repeated a million times and now believe that they know what they are talking about. If you haven't used one please, please stop giving people advice on them.



OK, to state again, I'm not bashing TF at all. I have never once bashed TF. I've never told any TF horror stories. I even went to far as to repeatedly explain that I'd love to have one myself to use. Nothing I've said is inconsistent with that at all. I've never said that they are "nothing but trouble." 

I also acknowledge, as you should, that TF has a reputation for certain bad work, and that it's a shame to have that reputation given that TF also has a reputation for making tools that cut exceptionally well. That's it. I'm not gauging whether those issues are common, uncommon, serious, minor or made up. I'm only stating, in the context of this thread, which I did not start and which specifically addresses TF F&F and the story about that, that that is a part of the TF story as we know it. I would never make fun of someone for buying one, I would never, ever say they are overpriced. I don't have the personal knowledge that I would need to do that. I would only say that I wouldn't buy a TF sight unseen, because the Internet world is laden with horror stories of people who have done that. Does that mean that every TF is bad? Of course not: there are more good TF stories than bad TF stories.

I get why you find the bashing annoying: you like the product and it feels like the bashers are, to some extent, bashing you. We've all been there: I've defended certain cars or sports teams or players or phone makers or whatever until my voice was hoarse. But here, I'm not bashing anybody. I'm not bashing TF lovers, TF haters or TF. I'm very happy that you have found knife love with your Denkas and hope that you find that with every other knife that comes through your hands. I hope the same for me.


----------



## Brian Weekley

Was tying down my Harley on the ferry between the North and South Island of NZ when some “Richard” head felt the need to come up to me to tell me what a piece of ***p Harley’s were. I asked him how many Harley’s he had owned? He said “none ... but everybody knows they’re c***” I said that I’ve had north of ten and have more than 500K kms on them. He said that I must be lucky to have bought some of the good ones. I guess?

WHEN ... I have about three months under my belt using the TF’s I’ve recently acquired then and only then will I feel capable of commenting or offering an opinion on MY TF’s.

Unfortunately every hobby or activity I’ve been involved with has some percentage of haters and fanboys who feel the need to heave stuff at each other when any rational individual knows the truth lies somewhere in between. Generally the haters have ZERO personal experience and the fanboys are suffering walking blindness.

For the noobies ... pass this thread by ... it offers little of practical value concerning what knife might suit you or not. For the haters ... when C-19 ends get a part time job and buy a few TF’s ... THEN comment about your direct experience ... The rest is just hot air. For the fanboys ... CHILL ... There will always be haters around to stir the pot ... just because you love your TF doesn’t mean your friend will.

Oh yea ... I’m pretty sure the guy on the ferry was from Oz ... No Kiwi I’ve met would ever be so classless and rude.


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## DitmasPork

MowgFace said:


> HAHA. Shots fired. 100% guilty of this.


Me too. Off loaded 9 knives last year.


----------



## nwshull

big_adventure said:


> I would _love_ to have a not-too-f'ed-up Denka for a reasonable price and not needing to get super lucky just to have the chance to buy it. As far as "expecting" F&F - yeah, I wouldn't expect perfection given the reputation, but I think it's sad that the reputation exists. It wouldn't take much to _not_ have those issues. Sukenari, who makes wonderful mid-to-high-end knives that are great cutters also have absolutely flawless F&F as well as insanely high quality HTs and everything else. Their knives just aren't as "hot" as TF. Shig, an even _more_ unicorn brand then TF, has immaculate F&F and their blades are also great cutters. Someone like Moritaka makes great cutters with exceedingly mediocre F&F, but they are comparatively cheap and always available. TF is more or less the _only_ unicorn brand/maker that gets away with this and stays so popular.
> 
> I say all of that while also rebounding to my first point: I'd love to have a Denka without too much hassle on my board. But I wouldn't order one online for a grand or more to take a chance on receiving a problem child for a blade.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear you - I wasn't speaking hypothetically though: I just bought a honyaki on BST that is perfection to use and also to look at and handle and everything else. I don't think that spending over a grand on a knife can ever be said to "make sense." Making sense generally isn't the reason for hobbies - and we are all possessed to some extent by this hobby. I don't need 20 or more knives and neither does anyone else. But I like them.
> 
> I would never think of criticizing TF's ability to make a blade that cuts or to criticize people who buy them (even those who push the prices into the stratosphere), but I think it's fair to criticize any manufacturer who does some of the frankly inexcusable stuff TF apparently does at that price point. Having a slightly wonky ku finish or a mediocre out of box edge is one thing. Having a crooked blade or handle, or a blade road with holes, on a thousand dollar knife is the kind of thing that would cause most brands to go bankrupt. In this case, there are a ton of other things about the blades that are good and the supply is so limited that demand is out of control. It still doesn't, in my eyes, excuse THAT level of indifference to the customer.
> 
> If you went to eat at The French Laundry in Yountville, and the waiter was slow to bring you a glass of water, that's pretty inexcusable, even if the rest of the meal is exceptional (and it will be, I assure you). It doesn't happen because they care about their customers, even though they frankly don't have to, as they are always always always full. Excusing TF for that just because they _can_ be that way and their customers will just bend right on over and say "thank you sir, may I have another" seems misplaced.
> 
> If I've talked anyone out of loving their Mab or Denka, PM me, I'll send you my address, I'll sacrifice myself by taking it off of your hands.


Again though, the price has raised and keeps being raised because people will pay it. I have a hard time finding fault with it. Thomas Keller has had some of his offshoot restaurants fail because it wasn’t worth the hype I think, a few Bouchon spin-offs etc. TF for the domestic market in Japan like Morihei and Tsubaya and through some other retailers sells some cheaper options. Worldwide though people keep being willing to pay more for Denkas with a TF label. I find it kind of hard to find fault with him selling them at a higher price point.


Barmoley said:


> First of all, congratulations. Why are we still discussing TF, sounds like you already got your perfect knife or really everyone's perfect knife. Which knife is it?
> 
> 
> 
> I get the sentiment I really do. All I am saying is that TF is still in business, selling a crap load of knives at "high" prices and griping by a tiny yet very vocal minority on this forum doesn't seem to change this fact. Some keep on asking, but why don't they fix the "problems". I don't know, but my guess is, they are not problems to them and most of their customers. We keep on hearing about the reasonable price or getting super lucky. Price is price if it is selling it is reasonable for most, might not be reasonable for me, but that has nothing to do with it. Shig prices are not reasonable to me, Shigs I've tried were not great cutters, f&f was excellent though. This doesn't change the fact that Shigs sell well and most think they are great and worth it.
> 
> As far as getting lucky, most that buy seem to get "lucky", there are very few truly problem knives, at least going by this forum. Most problems seem to come from wrong expectations or people who haven't tried one complaining about them.
> 
> 210 and under Denka's don't seem that outrageous. Why there is such a huge jump to 240, again I don't know. My guess would be that few 240s and up sell in the local market and most of these go to western markets where people are willing to pay more. Pure guess on my part. Would you still say that 210 at around $530 is unreasonable for what you get?


I think that's exactly it. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who when switching apartments shops counter space to use a 240. Japanese apartments and homes are even smaller than American ones in urban areas. So you're not placing a lot of 240 knives, which even in the US is considered a large size outside enthusiasts.


Corradobrit1 said:


> Jiro is a completely different market. TF is high volume in comparison to Jiro's output. And he works with W#1 so HT prowess is not a fair comparison with similarly priced SS clad Denka. Plus Jiro's knives are brutes, in the nicest possible sense. If you don't like heavy knives you're SOL.


I've heard from people who handle both, TF is better than Jiro at HT for W#1. Jiro's prices lies in the more artistic finish.


----------



## frombaltimore

DavidPF said:


> I don't want to praise or degrade the knife at all. Criticizing the maker's very inconsistent work on very high-priced knives doesn't require individual experience with any knife - in fact, personal experience with a handful of his knives only clouds people's judgement - they think all the rest will be just like theirs, and in fact they aren't. Until you've personally carefully examined and used at least hundreds of his knives (thousands would be better), you have a _less_ accurate point of view than someone who has never seen one but has read a lot of reports and reviews.
> Unless (as I mentioned before) the majority of the reviewers are lying. I don't see any reason for them to lie.
> 
> Buying a high-priced knife and having to hope you get a good one, is the thing I'm criticizing. Not a kind of knife, but a kind of maker.


i appreciate the thoughtfulness of this reply. and i agree with a lot of what you said. and my statement wasn’t a jab towards you/your sentiment, but towards other comments i see where the commentary stretches beyond TF inconsistent workmanship, into downright hatred/degradation based off of another persons experience with a blade. 

and i don’t think people are lying about their experiences generally. however, i do think people are easily influenced by the opinions of other people, both good and bad. it almost happened to me with my moritaka 240. i copped it, used it at my kitchen, and enjoyed the experience. then i came on here and stumbled across a thread where people were mercilessly shitting on it. and i thought “damn, maybe they right”. but i went back to work the next day, and pretty easily julienned a 50 lb bag of cabbage heads with it.


----------



## Bigbbaillie

It seems pretty obvious to me looking at TF knives that he wants these knives to be rustic and plenty of people, as mentioned by @Rangen, appreciate the "wabi-sabi" ethos of this brand. Regardless of what you think a "quality knife" is, lots of people obviously feel the prices are justified for various reasons, whether it's the heat treat, the resale value, a "wabi-sabi" fetish, or whatever. If you don't feel like it is that's perfectly fine.

If preferences like this didn't matter all knives would fall under the same standards and more or less be the same. The vast differences between makers standards are what characterize unique knives and I think that is the reason collecting/trying knives is interesting. It's also a lot easier to criticize a knife when you are so far removed from the process behind it and only see the product through YOUR perception of what a "quality knife" is. If every maker made knives to the same standards this hobby would be much more boring. We should appreciate divergent makers like TF for the fact they have found success despite their differences/inconsistencies.
That's why we spend time on forums researching knives and knife related issues, because at the end of the day our preference as an end user matters only to ourselves. It is also your own responsibility to know what you like and buy accordingly, if you want a polished knife with great f/f buy a Takada or Jiro, not a TF. 
That's how I feel at least.


----------



## btbyrd

The drawer queen collector crowd is relatively small. And my impression of the forum is that the vast majority of members regard knives primarily as tools. With that in mind, the critics of TF aren't denying that the knives cut well, take a keen edge, or have very good edge retention for the steel type. They're excellent tools, and even the so-called haters accept that. So I don't think that the polarization is a product of "the art-knife crowd VS the knives-as-tools crowd" dynamics. It's more about what standards of quality (and quality control) are acceptable in a knife at a particular price point. Especially from a sanctimonious maker who slaps a sticker of his face on the box.

I also don't think that the TF critics need to own or even use knives to make many of their criticisms, because most (if not all) of those criticisms have nothing to do with how the knives perform. The original premise of this thread is that TF knives often have obvious aesthetic blemishes, and attempts to rationalize this unfortunate fact via an appeal to wabi-sabi. Even TF's defenders acknowledge that there are often problems with quality -- they just don't care because they love the steel and the way the knives perform. And that's fine. But I don't think that actually using the OP's knife is going to change anyone's opinion about whether it's okay for TF to sell a knife with an obvious errant hammer mark smack-dab in the middle of it for full price. No amount of happy cutting is going to change minds about whether it's acceptable for a $900 knife to come from the factory with inadvertent scratches or ugly weld marks on the bolster, or to have a slap-dash handle with uneven, gappy scales, or to require hours of labor to even out a lousy grind. Such issues aren't wabi-sabi; they're just bad craftsmanship.

People seem to like vehicle analogies in this discussion, so here's mine. TFs are akin to excellent, high-end sports cars that are known to sometimes come new from the factory with scratches in the paint, dents in the fenders, and uneven wear on the tires. Some drivers luck out and get cars with none of these issues, or seek them out from dealers known to demand a higher standard of quality, or buy their car second-hand from someone who had the issues fixed. Other drivers are happy to overlook these issues completely because, as driving enthusiasts, they don't care about cosmetic defects... or they spend their spare time fixing up cars and are used to putting in the work to get the most out of them, or they're rich enough to simply pay someone else to fix the defects. Other potential drivers decide that no matter how well these cars drive, there's something strange and to-be-avoided about a company that cannot consistently make cars without problems -- especially since they seem to be the only company who has these issues.


----------



## bruce8088

Brian Weekley said:


> View attachment 116985
> 
> 
> Starting the process of learning for myself. After some use I’ll have an opinion about my TF’s. I’m looking for a Denka Gyuto to add as well so I will have used a cross section of TF’s. Then and only then will I feel confident to state my opinion on the knives. Even then my opinion is only MY opinion. Others may see it differently and that’s great too. IMO exchanging ideas is the true value of KKF.



At least 2 of those 3 TFs there seem to have quite a low cladding line - probably needs a real thinning and not usually how TFs are ootb. here are ones that are more or less stock or just opened up.


----------



## inferno

i dont think all the tf knives are made like they are from pure incompetence.

they obviously make them like that on purpose. its part of their "brand". and you either like it or not.


----------



## panda

so many TLDR posts in this thread


----------



## Barmoley

big_adventure said:


> OK, to state again, I'm not bashing TF at all. I have never once bashed TF. I've never told any TF horror stories. I even went to far as to repeatedly explain that I'd love to have one myself to use. Nothing I've said is inconsistent with that at all. I've never said that they are "nothing but trouble."



If I misunderstood your comments I apologize. To me what you wrote in your 2 previous comments reads like bashing. You did state you are not bashing TF, but to me what you write later is just that. No matter, I quoted you because it was a good example of what I am talking about and wasn’t meant to single you out.



big_adventure said:


> I get why you find the bashing annoying: you like the product and it feels like the bashers are, to some extent, bashing you. We've all been there: I've defended certain cars or sports teams or players or phone makers or whatever until my voice was hoarse. But here, I'm not bashing anybody. I'm not bashing TF lovers, TF haters or TF. I'm very happy that you have found knife love with your Denkas and hope that you find that with every other knife that comes through your hands. I hope the same for me.



No, no no! This is not it at all. I don’t think bashers are bashing me, I couldn’t care less. I am comfortable with the choices and decisions I’ve made and I truly wouldn’t care if every single person on the forum told me my knives are crap if I liked the knives. I am just tired of reading about TF issues and hearing advice from people without any TF experience. My denka is a good knife and I don’t regret buying it, but I have knives I like a lot more for many reasons. That doesn’t make my denka a bad knife or TF a bad company that shafts their customers. I would have exactly the same issue with people bashing any other company. When Jiro came on the scene as an unknown maker at a high price, I couldn’t understand it and asked here why his knives are so expensive. Then I used one in the pass around and I thought it was ok, but still not worth the price to me, I still feel this way, so I don’t buy one. I also don’t go around telling everyone who would listen to not buy one or that they overpaid for their knife. Clearly I don’t understand what is special about his knives, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is special to others who see the value. I respect their choice and don’t try to prove to them that they are wrong.


----------



## Rangen

btbyrd said:


> The original premise of this thread is that TF knives often have obvious aesthetic blemishes, and attempts to rationalize this unfortunate fact via an appeal to wabi-sabi.



I don't know whether we are getting any closer to a meeting of the minds on this. My post apparently helped less than I had hoped. I certainly did not intend to imply that anyone caring about excellence in F&F is all about "drawer queens;" I was just using an extreme example to try to make a point clearer.

What I can tell you is that this part of your post does not reflect a good analysis of the TF fan, or at least of this TF fan: "attempts to rationalize this unfortunate fact via an appeal to wabi-sabi."

Not rationalization. Two points:

(1) These knives, whether they have cosmetic or even overgrind flaws or not, appeal to me on a gut level. Talk of "Wabi Sabi" is an attempt to explain this gut-level resonance, not a rationalization aimed at those who do not experience it. What would be the point of aiming in that direction?

(2) What you seem to be not quite accepting is that I truly do not care about the grinding on the bolster. Really. I don't even find it "unfortunate." I had the chance to pass up the knife. I didn't take it, because I really, for real, did not care.

I understand perfectly that many others would care, which is perfectly fine.


----------



## panda

@Barmoley in similar fashion i don't get why carters go for so much. not a fan of their profile or grinds.


----------



## Luftmensch

Can't believe this thread hasn't gotten one of these yet:










Brian Weekley said:


> Oh yea ... I’m pretty sure the guy on the ferry was from Oz ... No Kiwi I’ve met would ever be so classless and rude.



Yeah.... but how many Ozzies have you owned? You can probably only credibly make a statement like that after having used one for at least three months...


----------



## lemeneid

Ku Kato is a $1500 knife with worse F&F than TF yet it seems to escape criticism.

Don’t think anyone here has used a CM, before, yet everyone is quick to criticize her work.


----------



## Barmoley

panda said:


> @Barmoley in similar fashion i don't get why carters go for so much. not a fan of their profile or grinds.


Me neither, don’t have any. Even though I have a soft spot for him, because my first real Japanese kitchen knife was bought by me directly from him at a knife show. That knife showed me what a kitchen knife can be and how well they can cut. Like you I don’t get current prices, not a fan of grinds or profiles. Many people love them and that’s cool.


----------



## Brian Weekley

Touché!


----------



## Corradobrit1

lemeneid said:


> Ku Kato is a $1500 knife with worse F&F than TF yet it seems to escape criticism.
> 
> Don’t think anyone here has used a CM, before, yet everyone is quick to criticize her work.


I think your criticism is based on a poor example. Generally speaking, of the ones I've seen and handled, they are very consistent. I have a Morihei 240 Ku, a 210WH Ku and owned a nakiri. Grind consistency easily outshines TF.


----------



## panda

lemeneid said:


> Ku Kato is a $1500 knife with worse F&F than TF yet it seems to escape criticism.
> 
> Don’t think anyone here has used a CM, before, yet everyone is quick to criticize her work.


do people even use those? pretty sure they are all drawer queens


----------



## Corradobrit1

panda said:


> do people even use those? pretty sure they are all drawer queens


I borrow my wife's CM and use it as a foot loofah. Don't tell her......


----------



## DitmasPork

Hahahaha! Love ‘em or hate ‘em, TF is a remarkably resilient brand. No matter how much vitriol is thrown at TF—they keep selling, remain coveted knives, bucked trends. I’ll never sell mine.


----------



## Koop

Wow, 172 posts in this thread. I guess I really opened a can of worms. To be fair, in my OP I said I don't own a bona fide TF - the bunka with the stray hammer mark is FRKZ from JCK - TF is the oem maker of this knife. It's basically a TF Nashiji - I paid $187 new with a free shipping coupon from Koki.

I haven't paid over $300 for a kitchen knife, but I'm intrigued and want to get a Mab and a Denka to experience first-hand. My original reference to wabi-sabi was related to the amount of gripes I've read about TF on this forum while I've also read many times his knives are not only well received in Japan, they are respected. Is it a cultural thing? That's what was at the core of the OP.


----------



## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> Hahahaha! Love ‘em or hate ‘em, TF is a remarkably resilient brand. No matter how much vitriol is thrown at TF—they keep selling, remain coveted knives, bucked trends. I’ll never sell mine.
> View attachment 117205


And how many of those overpriced Denka's do you see offered BNIB on BST?


----------



## Luftmensch

Brian Weekley said:


> Touché!





Despite having a poor finish... and being a little bit rough around the edges, once you get to know them, they are generally keepers...

... of course occasionally there is a bad one in the batch that escapes QA

(On a side note, roaring across NZ in a Harley sounds _awesome_.... I was never a fan of the heavy cruisers aesthetically... but love the look of the sportier models. Never learned to ride though... the drivers around here are a bit scary)


----------



## Rangen

I see the potential for a "show the ugly close-ups of your Denka" thread.


----------



## Rangen

Corradobrit1 said:


> And how many of those overpriced Denka's do you see offered BNIB on BST?



And Google says:

No results found for *site:www.kitchenknifeforums.com Denka +BNIB*.


----------



## wombat

Only been here for about 6 months and I've seen all of these arguments a dozen times. Happy to concede there are valid reasons why TF's product isn't to everyone's taste. 

For my part, if I was forced to sell my knives, the Denka would be the very last to go.


----------



## Brian Weekley

Put my first Maboroshi to work today prepping a family dinner. Here’s a pic ... 






Look at all those slices sitting quietly like a naughty schoolboy. Will have the first knife and welcome to the family meal up on New Knives probably tomorrow.


----------



## ModRQC

DitmasPork said:


> Do you own or have tried a TF denka? Honest question.



Nope. Three Mabs so far. 

I think you may have got my last sentence as talking about TF, while I was merely talking about the owner of the post I was reflecting upon in the first place. I never said anything about Denkas being overpriced, and never confounded any of TF knives with bang for bucks knives. For me, whatever extra work a TF carries is something I tend to do with any knife anyhow. But none any knife feels like a TF yo. 

My gyuto lineup as it stands now is a reflection of knives I've found to feel like no other while suiting me naturally to a "T": Shi.Han 52100, Mabs, Kono HD2 in 210mm + Tanaka Yohei B#1 in 240mm. Don't think anyone would find much to say against any of the four or dislike owning them, but perhaps the Mabs since we're here... I was actually sorely missing mine, is why I now have another one.


----------



## Pertti

Very interesting thread. Just rolled the dice and ordered a TF mab. Next up, Takeda


----------



## big_adventure

Well, just to be good and to know from wence I speak, I just ordered a 210 wa handled Denka. 

Reviews to follow.


----------



## DitmasPork

[


ModRQC said:


> Nope. Three Mabs so far.
> 
> I think you may have got my last sentence as talking about TF, while I was merely talking about the owner of the post I was reflecting upon in the first place. I never said anything about Denkas being overpriced, and never confounded any of TF knives with bang for bucks knives. For me, whatever extra work a TF carries is something I tend to do with any knife anyhow. But none any knife feels like a TF yo.
> 
> My gyuto lineup as it stands now is a reflection of knives I've found to feel like no other while suiting me naturally to a "T": Shi.Han 52100, Mabs, Kono HD2 in 210mm + Tanaka Yohei B#1 in 240mm. Don't think anyone would find much to say against any of the four or dislike owning them, but perhaps the Mabs since we're here... I was actually sorely missing mine, is why I now have another one.


That’s a solid set you have! I have a ShiHan petty, very well made, how you getting on with the gyuto? Yeah, think I responded to one element of your comment, but carried on encapsulating some other peoples within—think I got mixed up, so not entirely aimed at you.


----------



## ModRQC

big_adventure said:


> Well, just to be good and to know from wence I speak, I just ordered a 210 wa handled Denka.
> 
> Reviews to follow.



Are we a wee bit of an impulsive person? 

Good on you my man!


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Betcha this thread is going to result in more Denka purchases than sales.


----------



## Bigbbaillie

Time for another price increase baby!!


----------



## big_adventure

ModRQC said:


> Are we a wee bit of an impulsive person?
> 
> Good on you my man!



Hehehe - mayyyyyybeeeee so. 

I enjoy justifying things to myself. Especially likely ridiculous things. Plus, this way I'll get a really nice box with TF's photo on it, right?


----------



## big_adventure

GorillaGrunt said:


> Betcha this thread is going to result in more Denka purchases than sales.



Currently seems to be Buy 1, Sale 0. 

We're going to find out that the OP, and in fact all TF thread starters, are actually TF trolling/marketing. And then the price of the 240 gyuto will go up 50 bucks more.


----------



## DitmasPork

Thread inspired me to bring the denka out. Pork belly simmered in Belgian cidre, garlic, fennel seeds.


----------



## ModRQC

Tremendous Food.


----------



## DitmasPork

ModRQC said:


> Tremendous Food.


Cheers! My mom cringes at the amount of pork fat I consume. But man, slow cooked pork belly is major comfort food on cold nights.


----------



## Jason183

I don’t owned TF but from what I’ve read in the past most TF keepers are those who knows what they doing with knives, those who went through the thinning and polishing process themselves, the results as been a great cutter/performer as we expected from a great heat treated knifes.

Most of the ones reselling those TFs are the ones complaining about the F&F, inconsistent grinds.


----------



## big_adventure

DitmasPork said:


> Cheers! My mom cringes at the amount of pork fat I consume. But man, slow cooked pork belly is major comfort food on cold nights.



Don't you mean "on any night?"


----------



## panda

if there is an uptick in TF purchases, I suspect there will be a few available on BST soon.


----------



## DitmasPork

big_adventure said:


> Don't you mean "on any night?"


Hahahahaha! Yeah, you're right. Part if it is nostalgia—my grandmas were big fans of pork belly and pigs feet.


----------



## big_adventure

panda said:


> if there is an uptick in TF purchases, I suspect there will be a few available on BST soon.



Well there is definitely a +1 uptick. 

I will assure you that mine will not be for sale. Sorry, I'm not a seller.


----------



## tgfencer

DitmasPork said:


> Cheers! My mom cringes at the amount of pork fat I consume. But man, slow cooked pork belly is major comfort food on cold nights.



There's about 115 calories in a tbl of pork lard, give or take. A quart of lard is approximately 7,360. There's a reason humans have always eaten animals, the calorie ratio is off the charts compared to vegetable/agricultural products. Makes survival much easier, not that its particularly relevant in this day and age.

Nothing to add to the TF convo, sadly. Heard it all before, likely will hear it all again.


----------



## big_adventure

tgfencer said:


> There's about 115 calories in a tbl of pork lard, give or take. A quart of lard is approximately 7,360. There's a reason humans have always eaten animals, the calorie ratio is off the charts compared to vegetable/agricultural products. Makes survival much easier, not that its particularly relevant in this day and age.
> 
> Nothing to add to the TF convo, sadly. Heard it all before, likely will hear it all again.



To be fair, a gram of fat is about 9 kcal no matter what - it doesn't matter what the fat comes from. 

But rendered animal product definitely yields easy fat. And pork fat tastes goooooooood - just ask Emeril.


----------



## Brian Weekley

DitmasPork said:


> Cheers! My mom cringes at the amount of pork fat I consume. But man, slow cooked pork belly is major comfort food on cold nights.



Comfort food!!!! ... in my world Pork Belly is one of the major food groups along with nachos, beer, short ribs and chocolat!


----------



## LucasFur

Jason183 said:


> I don’t owned TF but from what I’ve read in the past most TF keepers are those who knows what they doing with knives, those who went through the thinning and polishing process themselves, the results as been a great cutter/performer as we expected from a great heat treated knifes.
> 
> Most of the ones reselling those TFs are the ones complaining about the F&F, inconsistent grinds.


Not really ... i sold 3 TF's with no issues. They just weren't worth it for me.

Peoples favourite knives are always going to be the ones they work on. Because the act of working on it brings it closer to what you are looking for as a user. And working on it makes you have to observe it more, handle it more, and then feel more confortable. so when you prep ... it still has that level of confort. 

By having TF be poor F&F people expect to put some work into it ... making the above process happen. making them "Fall in love" easier. than say a Honyaki that they are scared to touch because the polish is difficult to achieve.


----------



## DitmasPork

tgfencer said:


> There's about 115 calories in a tbl of pork lard, give or take. A quart of lard is approximately 7,360. There's a reason humans have always eaten animals, the calorie ratio is off the charts compared to vegetable/agricultural products. Makes survival much easier, not that its particularly relevant in this day and age.
> 
> Nothing to add to the TF convo, sadly. Heard it all before, likely will hear it all again.


My grand parents were pretty trim, ate pork belly often—of course they ran a country store, worked their asses off on the little farm out back, burn a hellaluv a lot more calories than I do sitting in front of the computer. Think their portioning was different too, smaller portions of meat than I eat.


----------



## DitmasPork

Brian Weekley said:


> Comfort food!!!! ... in my world Pork Belly is one of the major food groups along with nachos, beer, short ribs and chocolat!



Ever toss pork belly and short ribs onto nachos??? I've not, but that would be dream nachos.


----------



## tgfencer

DitmasPork said:


> My grand parents were pretty trim, ate pork belly often—of course they ran a country store, worked their asses off on the little farm out back, burn a hellaluv a lot more calories than I do sitting in front of the computer. Think their portioning was different too, smaller portions of meat than I eat.



Yeah, I eat a lot of pork belly, so no judgment. If what goes in is replacing energy going out, it makes sense. When I was a full-time farmer, I devoured all the food in my house like no ones business.


----------



## DitmasPork

tgfencer said:


> Yeah, I eat a lot of pork belly, so no judgment. If what goes in is replacing energy going out, it makes sense. When I was a full-time farmer, I devoured all the food in my house like no ones business.



I hear ya. Problems arise in white collar/car cultures where people consume the same amount as they did doing physical work. I'm pretty active, also good genes when it comes to pork consumption.


----------



## big_adventure

DitmasPork said:


> I hear ya. Problems arise in white collar/car cultures where people consume the same amount as they did doing physical work. I'm pretty active, also good genes when it comes to pork consumption.



I'm not sure "pork genes" are really observeable phenomenon but I like the concept.


----------



## ModRQC

Over here you'd go to a specialized poutine restaurant and ask for the one with pork belly... or bacon, or whatever rocks your socks. Now that's some unwieldy amount of all kinds of fats... always a mouthful away from cardiac arrest, never a mouthful away from nibbling into your girlfriend's unfinished one afterwards.


----------



## big_adventure

ModRQC said:


> Over here you'd go to a specialized poutine restaurant and ask for the one with pork belly... or bacon, or whatever rocks your socks. Now that's some unwieldy amount of all kinds of fats... always a mouthful away from cardiac arrest, never a mouthful away from nibbling into your girlfriend's unfinished one afterwards.



I occasionally clog my arteries and such with a visit to a poutine restaurant. Thankfully we and you have good socialized medicine.


----------



## DitmasPork

ModRQC said:


> Over here you'd go to a specialized poutine restaurant and ask for the one with pork belly... or bacon, or whatever rocks your socks. Now that's some unwieldy amount of all kinds of fats... always a mouthful away from cardiac arrest, never a mouthful away from nibbling into your girlfriend's unfinished one afterwards.


There're a few place around serving up 'Beyond Meat' poutine. I kinda feel "what's the point"!!!???


----------



## panda

DitmasPork said:


> There're a few place around serving up 'Beyond Meat' poutine. I kinda feel "what's the point"!!!???


----------



## ModRQC

DitmasPork said:


> There're a few place around serving up 'Beyond Meat' poutine. I kinda feel "what's the point"!!!???



I usually take mine classic, but from time to time, with either bacon or chicken added is nice. Adding more than one "special" ingredient sorts of feel too much to my tastes, and often times, even the one extra feels too much.


----------



## Carl Kotte

What if TF could make a denka out of ... pork belly ?


----------



## ModRQC

Carl Kotte said:


> What if TF could make a denka out of ... pork belly ?



From legendary reported QC, not sure you'd want to eat that, but sure would be easier to hammer straight.


----------



## Carl Kotte

ModRQC said:


> From legendary reported QC, not sure you'd want to eat that, but sure would be easier to hammer straight.


Nah, it’s san mai. You can bend it using your thumbs.


----------



## Carl Kotte

Ps I want a western handle on that.


----------



## ModRQC

Carl Kotte said:


> Nah, it’s san mai. You can bend it using your thumbs.


Huh... it’s pork belly.. you can bend it using your tongue.


----------



## esoo

DitmasPork said:


> There're a few place around serving up 'Beyond Meat' poutine. I kinda feel "what's the point"!!!???



That does seem pointless. 

Butter Chicken poutine was surprisingly good.


----------



## DitmasPork

ModRQC said:


> I usually take mine classic, but from time to time, with either bacon or chicken added is nice. Adding more than one "special" ingredient sorts of feel too much to my tastes, and often times, even the one extra feels too much.



I’m a huge fan of the populist, gravy-centric food genre. Poutine, open-face turkey sandwich, loco moco, chicken fried steak, etc.


----------



## big_adventure

DitmasPork said:


> There're a few place around serving up 'Beyond Meat' poutine. I kinda feel "what's the point"!!!???


That's not OK.


----------



## DitmasPork

Carl Kotte said:


> What if TF could make a denka out of ... pork belly ?


Wabi-sabi spicy sweet wasabi pork belly!


----------



## ModRQC

It’s such a beautiful thing to see... 

TF haters and lovers reunited over pork fat and other hypercalorics!


----------



## Rangen

Pork fat is the ultimate uniter.

I am mostly using real lard (not that crap in the green/white boxes) for my stir-frying needs. Except when I use beef fat to do burgers or steaks or fries.

Braised pork belly is an ultimate comfort food. Mangalitsa lard is one of the great luxuries of the world.

Pork is a fraught topic, because most US supermarkets can deliver edible beef and chicken, but the pork is just awful. Injected with water, mostly. No belly to be found. Maybe not even shoulder ("Boston Butt"), which is the second best part of the pig after belly, or third if you can get an amazing ham, like American country ham not from the Smithfield company.

If anyone wants to chime in here with a good source for excellent skin-on pork belly, I'd welcome it. My favorite online pork source only carries skinless belly.


----------



## nyc

Blind taste tests have shown that pork tastes the best when cut with a Denka. Honyaki fared the worst. Participants in the tests inexplicably gagged when eating those samples.


----------



## Brian Weekley

Check this Butchers website out ... Berryman Brothers Butcheries Victoria BC

I‘m extraordinarily fortunate to have an old time butcher available to me to supply my meat needs ... especially pork. Here’s a pic of a recent pork belly that I did up from their supply. Cost of the pork was $12 CDN as I recall.







They also happen to make the best smoked bacon it the universe. If that weren’t enough they also take their bacon off cuts and grinds them up to this ...












Whats better than pork belly ... ground up smoked pork belly! Cost for this package was about $8 CDN. This batch became the 8th layer in my Seven Layer Supper. The possible uses are many ... like adding to ground beef for you hamburger mix.

As you can see my pork was properly prepared for maximum flavour by using a TF Mab!


----------



## nyc

I render pork fat (usually from the back of the animal). Then add a couple of thinly sliced shallots. The crackling/scratchings and crispy shallots make great garnishing in Asian cooking and the oil is absolutely bonkers.


----------



## Corradobrit1

nyc said:


> View attachment 117359
> 
> I render pork fat (usually from the back of the animal). Then add a couple of thinly sliced shallots. The crackling/scratchings and crispy shallots make great garnishing in Asian cooking and the oil is absolutely bonkers.


"TF Apologist"


----------



## Carl Kotte

Brian Weekley said:


> Check this Butchers website out ... Berryman Brothers Butcheries Victoria BC
> 
> I‘m extraordinarily fortunate to have an old time butcher available to me to supply my meat needs ... especially pork. Here’s a pic of a recent pork belly that I did up from their supply. Cost of the pork was $12 CDN as I recall.
> 
> View attachment 117349
> 
> 
> They also happen to make the best smoked bacon it the universe. If that weren’t enough they also take their bacon off cuts and grinds them up to this ...
> 
> View attachment 117350
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 117351
> 
> 
> Whats better than pork belly ... ground up smoked pork belly! Cost for this package was about $8 CDN. This batch became the 8th layer in my Seven Layer Supper. The possible uses are many ... like adding to ground beef for you hamburger mix.
> 
> As you can see my pork was properly prepared for maximum flavour by using a TF Mab!


Next time you’ll have a pork belly super #1 denka. It comes naturally ni mai.


----------



## Carl Kotte

ModRQC said:


> It’s such a beautiful thing to see...
> 
> TF haters and lovers reunited over pork fat and other hypercalorics!


Are there any tf haters though?


----------



## refcast

I mean, i kinda hated my 270mm gyuto, and sold it. Just fit and finish stuff, but it was probably the thinnest behind the edge knife I've bought. Hated the shoulders, would wedge on really tall dense stuff, and nothing was eased. Still cut awesome though, but i like other stuff.


----------



## ModRQC

Carl Kotte said:


> Are there any tf haters though?



Well... I had the same question in mind. Then I decided, though I know you’re too smart to be a TF hater, that you could count as someone rather lukewarm towards them. But I could be mistaken - just a general impression.


----------



## ModRQC

refcast said:


> I mean, i kinda hated my 270mm gyuto, and sold it. Just fit and finish stuff, but it was probably the thinnest behind the edge knife I've bought. Hated the shoulders, would wedge on really tall dense stuff, and nothing was eased. Still cut awesome though, but i like other stuff.



Shoulders and wedging is a consistent problem so far with both Mabs gyutos I experienced. First time around I had thinned the « wide bevel » with mild results. This time around I started just over the shoulders and convexed down. First session yielded much more consistent improvement than my former Mabs thinning. Tonight I just completed a second session going over the shoulders again but now rather insisting on the 0-15mm behind the edge. Actual geometry promises good things but obviously it needs testing. And an edge before that.

But the real problem is how low the grinded bevel is. Avg 15mm with both my Mabs Gyutos. Wide bevel knives can have thicker shoulders than a Mabs and still behave a good deal better overall if thin enough behind the edge, and with 20mm+ wide bevel width.


----------



## Carl Kotte

ModRQC said:


> Well... I had the same question in mind. Then I decided, though I know you’re too smart to be a TF hater, that you could count as someone rather lukewarm towards them. But I could be mistaken - just a general impression.


I’m delightfully indifferent, and not very smart. #Beigeforlife


----------



## refcast

I recognize the conditional cutting powers of tf . . . I just hate that the knife costs so much but didn't do what I wanted. Also I didn't understand what I wanted either, or how each part of the knife functions for certain things. The 270 probably performed better than smaller knives . . . more room to grind thin, and more height before food hits the wide bevel shoulders.


----------



## big_adventure

Denka shipped to me today. I can't comment personally on the blade yet, but ordering from TF directly was a pleasure. I need to plan a massive prep-off in a week or so to put it through it's paces alongside other cutty-cutty stabby-stabby things.


----------



## Bear

My Denka as* *Corradobrit1 pointed out to me was old stock, so probably the worse case scenario, but a word of warning, its hard to see how bad the overgrinds are till you put them on the stones, once I started there was no going back.


----------



## big_adventure

Bear said:


> My Denka as* *Corradobrit1 pointed out to me was old stock, so probably the worse case scenario, but a word of warning, it hard to see how bad the overgrinds are till you put them on the stones, once I started there was no going back.



Ok cool. To be fair, my usual procedure with any new blade is to test it once out of the box, then, when I am inevitably disappointed, to head straight for the stones.


----------



## ModRQC

Carl Kotte said:


> I’m delightfully indifferent, and not very smart. #Beigeforlife



Being delightfully indifferent is in my book rather proof of intelligence - well, in this era we live in. Polarization doesn't do humanity much good these days it seems.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Add one to the denkas bought because of this thread


----------



## Jason183

Bear said:


> My Denka as* *Corradobrit1 pointed out to me was old stock, so probably the worse case scenario, but a word of warning, it hard to see how bad the overgrinds are till you put them on the stones, once I started there was no going back.


Same happened to my Tojiro 300mm Yanagiba(first time ever to experienced low spots), I noticed there’s 3 low spots after the first sharpening, some knives cuts better after the sharpening, some knives gets worse after the sharpening, you never know until you sharpened it.


----------



## Duukt

I would love to order a red western handled TF denka 210mm if it was as good as the TF nashiji I got from JCK.


----------



## MarcelNL

I think the 'je ne sais quoi' of TF Wabi-Sabi has to be experienced and valued -or not- by each individual, I assume it's much like how the Shig Santoku feels like an extension of my hand whereas the Tosa (forgot the maker) Gyoto in AS feels as much without any life as the previous Global I had in high regard. All three mentioned 'will cut' but the feel is distinctly different.


----------



## captaincaed

I'm looking for some good horseradish. Any recommendations?


----------



## btbyrd

Wabi sabi wasabi.


----------



## ian

I once cut 30mm off a horseradish with an angle grinder.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

ian said:


> I once cut 30mm off a horseradish with an angle grinder.



Can you cut me off a chunk for my burger?


----------



## andrewsa

The best part about pork is the cheek! I hope that everyone is able to get their hands on some Guanciale. 

You can find them at your local Italian deli. 

The fat renders some really beautiful oil that is incredibly smokey and peppery.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

Wow, off the charts bizarre.


----------



## Bear

ian said:


> I once cut 30mm off a horseradish with an angle grinder.




Maybe not an angle grinder


----------



## parbaked

andrewsa said:


> The best part about pork is the cheek! I hope that everyone is able to get their hands on some Guanciale.


In Japan it's called _tontoro_ .
I like it miso marinated and then grilled like yakitori...


----------



## andrewsa

parbaked said:


> In Japan it's called _tontoro_ .
> I like it miso marinated and then grilled like yakitori...
> View attachment 117515


Oh that's beautiful. I will be considering pork cheek/jowl instead of belly when I want to do some yakiniku. I can imagine it will go well with some soy ponzu. 

I've only considered pork cheek/jowl for my pasta dishes. Mainly Carbonara, alla Gricia and Amatriciana. 

The rendered fat acts extremely well as an emulsifier aiding in bringing the sauces together.


----------



## DitmasPork

parbaked said:


> In Japan it's called _tontoro_ .
> I like it miso marinated and then grilled like yakitori...
> View attachment 117515


Looking at that while stuck at work is torture. So hungry now.


----------



## daveb

Wow,

This one went off the tracks. Beige Boy - see what you started?



Carl Kotte said:


> What if TF could make a denka out of ... pork belly ?





Lucas - I / We respect your opinion(s) and you stated them well. But in this thread they're no more welcome than a 7th day Adventist on a nice Saturday morning. Pls feel free to start an appropriate thread in the Off-Topic area.

I kept most of the other food segue - and plan to try the guanstuff next trip to the market.

To the TF'ers, I'm usually among the first to poke fun at the knives and owners. But it's all in fun. I don't get the part about an $800 project knife but then I don't have to. There's another thread about someone not "getting" the Shig / Kato thing. I don't get that either, and again I don't have to. Others do get it. They like it. And if you like it, you should have it. Life is too short to do otherwise.

wtfwtfwtf

Pls get this back on track or we'll have to shut it down and wait a couple weeks for the next one.


----------



## Carl Kotte

daveb said:


> Wow,
> 
> This one went off the tracks. Beige Boy - see what you started?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lucas - I / We respect your opinion(s) and you stated them well. But in this thread they're no more welcome than a 7th day Adventist on a nice Saturday morning. Pls feel free to start an appropriate thread in the Off-Topic area.
> 
> I kept most of the other food segue - and plan to try the guanstuff next trip to the market.
> 
> To the TF'ers, I'm usually among the first to poke fun at the knives and owners. But it's all in fun. I don't get the part about an $800 project knife but then I don't have to. There's another thread about someone not "getting" the Shig / Kato thing. I don't get that either, and again I don't have to. Others do get it. They like it. And if you like it, you should have it. Life is too short to do otherwise.
> 
> wtfwtfwtf
> 
> Pls get this back on track or we'll have to shut it down and wait a couple weeks for the next one.


In light of these facts I should perhaps retract my previous statement, quoted above, and simply say: denkas are made of superbly heat treated and well-ground pork belly #1. Thank you! 

Edit: correction. Of course I mean pork belly *Super. *Silly me!


----------



## fatsumie

Do you guys think a Denka Petty is worth it to try? I'd like a gyuto but before I wanna spend the money for it, I'd wanna see how it behaves on some stones before getting a gyuto. All this talk about TF, Kato, Shigs, Fujiyamas/Kaiju are really intriguing.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

fatsumie said:


> Do you guys think a Denka Petty is worth it to try? I'd like a gyuto but before I wanna spend the money for it, I'd wanna see how it behaves on some stones before getting a gyuto. All this talk about TF, Kato, Shigs, Fujiyamas/Kaiju are really intriguing.



My 0.02: If you're going to spend denka money spend it on a gyuto. Someone will buy it off you on the forums if you don't like it. Or you can buy a nakiri


----------



## panda

@Brian Weekley posting his western maboroshi made me consider getting one to use on the line.


----------



## big_adventure

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> My 0.02: If you're going to spend denka money spend it on a gyuto. Someone will buy it off you on the forums if you don't like it. Or you can buy a nakiri



Or, you can buy the Denka gyuto, and if you don't like it, convert it to a nakiri. Good practice?


----------



## lemeneid

fatsumie said:


> Do you guys think a Denka Petty is worth it to try? I'd like a gyuto but before I wanna spend the money for it, I'd wanna see how it behaves on some stones before getting a gyuto. All this talk about TF, Kato, Shigs, Fujiyamas/Kaiju are really intriguing.






Love my Denka petty. It has the worst F&F of any knife ever, but it’s cutting is second to none!


----------



## DitmasPork

lemeneid said:


> View attachment 117573
> 
> Love my Denka petty. It has the worst F&F of any knife ever, but it’s cutting is second to none!


Cool! Gotta pic of handle with it? Just curious.


----------



## lemeneid

DitmasPork said:


> Cool! Gotta pic of handle with it? Just curious.


----------



## DitmasPork

lemeneid said:


> View attachment 117574


That’s nice! Looks quite tall, which I like. Gotta get one of them one of these days—I’ve a bunch of good pettys, but still searching for one that checks my boxes.


----------



## lemeneid

DitmasPork said:


> That’s nice! Looks quite tall, which I like. Gotta get one of them one of these days—I’ve a bunch of good pettys, but still searching for one that checks my boxes.


This one is more like a mini gyuto though, quite tall at 44mm too! If I recall this one is about 8-9 years old now, and I got it at a real good deal off BST. It’s also thicker than most TFs but I can assure you, it doesn’t cut like it’s thickness implies.


----------



## Duukt

Since TF sells 150 and 180mm gyutos, wouldn't they be preferable to petty's at the same length?


----------



## Bigbbaillie

Depends on the desired purpose, for most things like prepping veg, the mini gyuto will be better. But if you want it for more delicate work like supreming citrus or trimming silverskin then its better to go for the short and long petty/suji profile.


----------



## panda

tall petty is basically a western Funayuki or what ever no?


----------



## Corradobrit1

panda said:


> @Brian Weekley posting his western maboroshi made me consider getting one to use on the line.


This would be a major coup for TF Wabi Sabi Culture


----------



## big_adventure

We can just change the logo for KKF to TF's face. #wabisabi #youdontunderstandwabisabi #hungryforwasabi


----------



## WiriWiri

Did you order your Denka direct BA? There’s still a good chance that you‘ll get a complimentary tea towel with your delivery. 

If you’re really lucky, you’ll get the much rumoured special edition. Complete with his smirking face stitched on.

The horror.


----------



## big_adventure

WiriWiri said:


> Did you order your Denka direct BA? There’s still a good chance that you‘ll get a complimentary tea towel with your delivery.
> 
> If you’re really lucky, you’ll get the much rumoured special edition. Complete with his smirking face stitched on.
> 
> The horror.



Yup, I ordered directly. I will give a full review of the experience when it arrives. Have to hand it to Japan Post / EMS for their rapidity in getting stuff out of the country. The knife was picked up from Meguro yesterday, it got to the outbound exchange office at 0h29, and passed that at 0h30 this morning. 

If I get any tea towels with TF's smirking face, I'll... huh, let's think...

If I get a "good" Denka, I'll reserve that towel to wipe the Denka only.

If I get an easy project version, I'll use the towel to wipe every other knife, but never the Denka.

If I get a difficult project version, I'll us the towel to wipe my *** and send it back to TF.

and finally...

If I get a "damn she was a crazy one" ex-girlfriend level project version, I'll make it into the background of a dartboard.


----------



## DitmasPork

Alright, I've put more thought into the wabisabi-ism of the OP—considered much of the comments by devotees and detractors. Yeah, I hear concerns of pricepoint and f&f issues, all valid.

What I find perplexing—is that the J-knife market is so incredibly vast and accessible, with many options to fit anyones wheelhouse—considerably different from the pre-internet days, when the only option sourcing knives was going to a cutlery store.

Many knife enthusiasts, including myself, covet knives that have an innate wabi-sabiness; the allure of uniqueness and handmadeness from a rustic, artisan knife is special to me. That said, many rustic makers produce knives with an innate imperfectness, inconsistencies that merely add the the uniqueness. For those that want assurances that their $900 denka will have an even grind, no stray hammer blows in the bevel, you often can't—you're better served getting a Konosuke or knife from a maker known for slick, finessed grinds. Part of the attraction of TF for me was the gamble of landing a good example—if mine were wonky, I'd still love it, work with it. TF—the great steel, high performance aspects well discussed—but embracing the unpredictable nature of wabi-sabi, appreciating the knife's idiosyncrasies is an important element of having a TF. Sure, some TFs take some serious work to get them purring, some don't, it's the chance worth taking IMO.

Mine was bought used, so already worked on and opened up on the stones. I would've bought one off-the-shelf if it didn't come along.


----------



## Corradobrit1

big_adventure said:


> We can just change the logo for KKF to TF's face. #wabisabi #youdontunderstandwabisabi #hungryforwasabi


#pearlsbeforeswine


----------



## ModRQC

lemeneid said:


> View attachment 117574



Looks like a 150mm Santoku. I was thinking of getting something like that since having a tall petty is a tall order amongst j-knives.


----------



## parbaked

TF tiny gyutos and petties are really good knives for home use...





I use a 180 Mab gyuto, that I picked up at TF, and re-handled 135 Nashiji petty


----------



## DitmasPork

parbaked said:


> TF tiny gyutos and petties are really good knives for home use...
> View attachment 117606
> 
> I use a 180 Mab gyuto that I picked up at TF and re-handled 135 Nashiji petty


That petty is really cool.


----------



## parbaked

DitmasPork said:


> That petty is really cool.


Yeah...I’m going to re-handle the gyuto too since TF scratched my name on it so I’ll never sell it...


----------



## WiriWiri

I really liked the 180 Mab Gyuto, but it doesn’t feel like a petty for whatever reason. Feels more substantial than many a Sakai 210

Nice little gyuto. It’s only no longer with me as it was nominally the ex’s knife (well that was my excuse for purchasing it at the time) and she actually liked it enough to take it with her. That was a magnanimous gesture that backfired


----------



## Bigbbaillie

Recently picked this up off of bst. 120mm, thought it would be awkward size at first but it's great size for a less one dimensional paring knife.


----------



## DitmasPork

parbaked said:


> Yeah...I’m going to re-handle the gyuto too since TF scratched my name on it so I’ll never sell it...
> View attachment 117608


Hahahaha. Same with my Takamura, I was offered free engraving, but had a mental block, so all I could think of was my first name, so the kanji just says "da-ren." Wished I'd put forethought into it, maybe could've had them inscribe "char siu slayer" or "buddhist shiv" (I'm allowed to say it since my family is buddhist).


----------



## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> Hahahaha. Same with my Takamura, I was offered free engraving, but had a mental block, so all I could think of was my first name, so the kanji just says "da-ren." Wished I'd put forethought into it, maybe could've had them inscribe "char siu slayer" or "buddhist shiv" (I'm allowed to say it since my family is buddhist).


Not "official TF cult member"?


----------



## DitmasPork

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not "official TF cult member"?



Not yet, @lemeneid hasn't informed me about the initiation requirements. Is there hazing involved?


----------



## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> Is there hazing involved?


You bet. Thats the best bit.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

I’ve thought about the sujis too because they seem to run tall


----------



## DitmasPork

parbaked said:


> Yeah...I’m going to re-handle the gyuto too since TF scratched my name on it so I’ll never sell it...
> View attachment 117608


Dude, I'd love to visit TF's shop someday. Is he a nice guy? Chatty or quiet?


----------



## daddy yo yo

parbaked said:


> Yeah...I’m going to re-handle the gyuto too since TF scratched my name on it so I’ll never sell it...
> View attachment 117608


Some people say he would be selling even more knives if he didn’t engrave TF on the blades. By doing so, he’d maybe also reach those who wouldn’t buy a TF...


----------



## big_adventure

Well, ordering from TF was a breath of fresh air. My Denka arrived today. Here's my post from the new knife flex thread:

Denka Flex Post

Tea towel: yes.

Photos of TF: negative.

Wonk: definitely

Wonk likely to affect the performance for me: unlikely.

Profile: I love it - 54.5mm tall at the heel, 214mm long, relatively flat, thin at the tip.

The TF finger notch in the choil will be absolutely useless to me: I pinch way too far forward for that, plus all of my fingers are much too large to fit into that little cute thing.


----------



## JayS20

Congrats you definitely hit the Wabi-Sabi part.


----------



## parbaked

DitmasPork said:


> Dude, I'd love to visit TF's shop someday. Is he a nice guy? Chatty or quiet?


It is worth a trip...TF is nice.
I wouldn't describe him as chatty, but he's pleasant and gracious.
The shop is in a quiet, residential neighborhood, on an obscure train line, and they seem to appreciate the effort it takes to visit.





We went on a Monday afternoon and were the only customers in the hour we spent there.
An elderly lady from the neighborhood did drop off knives for sharpening, which I thought was pretty cool.


----------



## Corradobrit1

parbaked said:


> It is worth a trip...TF is nice.
> I wouldn't describe him as chatty, but he's pleasant and gracious.
> The shop is in a quiet, residential neighborhood, on an obscure train line, and they seem to appreciate the effort it takes to visit.
> View attachment 117857
> 
> 
> We were there on a Monday afternoon and were the only customers in the hour we spent there.
> An elderly lady from the neighborhood did drop off knives for sharpening, which I thought was pretty cool.
> View attachment 117856


Any idea how long he's had a shop at that location?


----------



## parbaked

Corradobrit1 said:


> Any idea how long he's had a shop at that location?


No idea, but the decor and fixtures looked from the 1970s...


----------



## Corradobrit1

parbaked said:


> No idea, but the decor and fixtures looked from the 1970s...


Yes, definitely a step back in time, like one of those vintage vinyl record shops. Still using paper ordering system.....cute


----------



## lemeneid

parbaked said:


> It is worth a trip...TF is nice.
> I wouldn't describe him as chatty, but he's pleasant and gracious.
> The shop is in a quiet, residential neighborhood, on an obscure train line, and they seem to appreciate the effort it takes to visit.
> View attachment 117857
> 
> 
> We went on a Monday afternoon and were the only customers in the hour we spent there.
> An elderly lady from the neighborhood did drop off knives for sharpening, which I thought was pretty cool.
> View attachment 117856


Lol I thought the walk there from the station was enjoyable.
Did you manage to see any of the non-standard stuff? Definitely no wabi sabi there


----------



## Rangen

big_adventure said:


> Well, ordering from TF was a breath of fresh air. My Denka arrived today. Here's my post from the new knife flex thread:
> 
> Denka Flex Post
> 
> Tea towel: yes.
> 
> Photos of TF: negative.
> 
> Wonk: definitely
> 
> Wonk likely to affect the performance for me: unlikely.
> 
> Profile: I love it - 54.5mm tall at the heel, 214mm long, relatively flat, thin at the tip.
> 
> The TF finger notch in the choil will be absolutely useless to me: I pinch way too far forward for that, plus all of my fingers are much too large to fit into that little cute thing.



Wow, I thought I had big hands, but you win.

Don't keep us in suspense, man. How does it cut?


----------



## Corradobrit1

All this Denka talk got me hankering for another. This time a 195 Gyuto which will be going in my VW California campervan thats on order. I can then leave the 210 Denka aka 'My Precious' safe at home. Here's a sneak peak


----------



## ian

GorillaGrunt said:


> I’ve thought about the sujis too because they seem to run tall



I like my sujis like I like my sexual partners. Tall, flawed and too expensive?



big_adventure said:


> The TF finger notch in the choil will be absolutely useless to me: I pinch way too far forward for that, plus all of my fingers are much too large to fit into that little cute thing.



Nothing a dremel can't fix.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Corradobrit1 said:


> All this Denka talk got me hankering for another. This time a 195 Gyuto which will be going in my VW California campervan thats on order. I can then leave the 210 Denka aka 'My Precious' safe at home. Here's a sneak peak
> View attachment 117930
> View attachment 117931



Toucou Twinsies! 195mm is a fun size to zip around the board with


----------



## Corradobrit1

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Toucou Twinsies! 195mm is a fun size to zip around the board with
> 
> View attachment 117934


Has that been to the spa? Whats it weigh?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Corradobrit1 said:


> Has that been to the spa? Whats it weigh?



I took it to the spa all by myself 

195x49 - 183g thinned and convexed, balance point right in front of bolster. It's been with me a while now, I think you've seen it before.


----------



## Corradobrit1

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> I took it to the spa all by myself
> 
> 195x49 - 183g thinned and convexed, balance point right in front of bolster. It's been with me a while now, I think you've seen it before.


I got 197x48 178g. TF put it on a diet. I got a feeling this is thicker along the spine compared to my 210.


----------



## parbaked

lemeneid said:


> Lol I thought the walk there from the station was enjoyable.
> Did you manage to see any of the non-standard stuff? Definitely no wabi sabi there


I can't remember the name of the lady who works at TF but she emailed us detailed directions from the subway.
We still got lost going back.
I didn't see the fancy lacquer stuff but there were a bunch of non-standard stuff. 
I didn't take good pictures.
There was a small glass case with some folders and the main displays had all the red handled Denkas and some funky stag handled knives.
The most wabi sabi knife was a Mab santoku with a magnolia yo-handle from a magnolia tree in front of the shop.
TF took me out for a smoke to show me the tree. I wanted to buy it but it had too much wabi sabi...
You can see the red handled Denkas, the stag handled Denkas (top row) and the magnolia santoku (bottom left) in this crap picture...


----------



## GorillaGrunt

ian said:


> I like my sujis like I like my sexual partners. Tall, flawed and too expensive?
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing a dremel can't fix.



i like em tall too, I always say lemme play Tom Cruise to your Nicole Kidman. (minus the alien-shouting)


----------



## daveb

big_adventure said:


> The TF finger notch in the choil will be absolutely useless to me: I pinch way too far forward for that, plus all of my fingers are much too large to fit into that little cute thing.



And that gentlemen, is what she said.......


----------



## GorillaGrunt

daveb said:


> And that gentlemen, is what she said.......


blehehehehe

FRAT KITCHEN


----------



## Carl Kotte

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Toucou Twinsies! 195mm is a fun size to zip around the board with
> 
> View attachment 117934


You need that one in pork belly #1 with a stylish handle!


----------



## big_adventure

Rangen said:


> Wow, I thought I had big hands, but you win.
> 
> Don't keep us in suspense, man. How does it cut?



It cuts damn well! As expected it desparately needs easing on the spine and choil. The offline handle is a non issue. It needs thinning - it's a whopping 1,6mm thick 1cm up from the edge.


----------



## Benuser

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Toucou Twinsies! 195mm is a fun size to zip around the board with
> 
> View attachment 117934


From the photo I'd say the heel is protruding.


----------



## big_adventure

Benuser said:


> From the photo I'd say the heel is protruding.



No, that's just wabi-sabi


----------



## Carl Kotte

I’m getting wabi-sabi confused


----------



## Benuser

big_adventure said:


> It cuts damn well! As expected it desparately needs easing on the spine and choil. The offline handle is a non issue. It needs thinning - it's a whopping 1,6mm thick 1cm up from the edge.


1.6mm at 1cm is huge. Around 1mm is what you would aim for with a general purpose blade. Call it a project knife.


----------



## ian

I also wouldn’t mind having a TF blank, given the great HT. Too bad they’re so expensive.


----------



## Benuser

big_adventure said:


> No, that's just wabi-sabi


If it's no optical illusion, it's a serious problem. Not a cosmetic flaw.


----------



## big_adventure

Benuser said:


> If it's no optical illusion, it's a serious problem. Not a cosmetic flaw.



I know, I was kidding.  The very end of the heel on mine has a slight up-curve in the profile. It's not noticeable in use, unlike a down-curve. Wabi-sabi !!!

For the thickness on mine, I'll start thinning it later, when I go after the spine and choil.


----------



## esoo

Benuser said:


> 1.6mm at 1cm is huge. Around 1mm is what you would aim for with a general purpose blade. Call it a project knife.



The kuro Shig santoku I had was 2mm at 1cm. I called it a mistake.


----------



## Carl Kotte

ian said:


> I also wouldn’t mind having a TF blank, given the great HT. Too bad they’re so expensive.


Contact @nakiriknaifuwaifu and @RockyBasel for the next massdrop idea!


----------



## esoo

Carl Kotte said:


> Contact @nakiriknaifuwaifu and @RockyBasel for the next massdrop idea!



Next Massdrop: TF blanks, sent to Konosuke for finishing and then to JoBone for handles....


----------



## Carl Kotte

esoo said:


> Next Massdrop: TF blanks, sent to Konosuke for finishing and then to JoBone for handles....


That sounds expensive


----------



## esoo

Carl Kotte said:


> That sounds expensive



Probably. But you'd end up with a unique batch of knives.


----------



## Benuser

big_adventure said:


> I know, I was kidding.  The very end of the heel on mine has a slight up-curve in the profile. It's not noticeable in use, unlike a down-curve. Wabi-sabi !!!
> 
> For the thickness on mine, I'll start thinning it later, when I go after the spine and choil.


I would expect it to result in accordeoning at use. There is a 'frown', a reverse belly behind, that doesn't touch the board.


----------



## big_adventure

Benuser said:


> I would expect it to result in accordeoning at use. There is a 'frown', a reverse belly behind, that doesn't touch the board.



I agree with you. That's why I said mine would be different then the frown in the other poster's post.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Benuser said:


> From the photo I'd say the heel is protruding.





Benuser said:


> If it's no optical illusion, it's a serious problem. Not a cosmetic flaw.



Illusion, the profile is fine

@big_adventure a little recurve at the heel is a good thing don't worry


----------



## tcmx3

Benuser said:


> 1.6mm at 1cm is huge. Around 1mm is what you would aim for with a general purpose blade. Call it a project knife.



yes but if you look at it optimistically, it means you'll have a lot of metal and life left after you flatten the bevels. no accounting for what the shinogi's gonna look like afterwards though lol.


----------



## big_adventure

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> @big_adventure a little recurve at the heel is a good thing don't worry



I'm definitely not worried - the profile is great. Just need to raise and thin the bevels and the knife will be perfect outside of some TF wonky-sabi with the handle.


----------



## Carl Kotte

big_adventure said:


> I'm definitely not worried - the profile is great. Just need to raise and thin the bevels and the knife will be perfect outside of some TF wonky-sabi with the handle.


Please sir, just... worry!


----------



## big_adventure

Carl Kotte said:


> Please sir, just... worry!



I'll get right on that.


----------



## big_adventure

esoo said:


> The kuro Shig santoku I had was 2mm at 1cm. I called it a mistake.



Ku Shigs are thiiiiick. I know that mine is.


----------



## esoo

big_adventure said:


> Ku Shigs are thiiiiick. I know that mine is.



It was thiiick. 

But the technique was there for an amazing knife - convex to the shinogi, hollow between the shinogi and spine.


----------



## daveb

OK, they might be thicc - but they are expensive....


----------



## tcmx3

daveb said:


> OK, they might be thicc - but they are expensive....



maybe they charge by weight


----------



## Benuser

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> A little recurve at the heel is a good thing don't worry


I would say a very slight upswing at the heel makes forward slicing easier. What do you find helpful about a little recurve instead?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Benuser said:


> I would say a very slight upswing at the heel makes forward slicing easier. What do you find helpful about a little recurve instead?



I think we're on the same page here.

A smile (or upswing as you say) on the back 1/2 cm makes gyutos (especially tall ones with lots of belly) easier to work with. In particular, there's no abrupt stop at the flat spot of the heel when you're push cutting and using the belly of the knife.

If you disagreed and wanted the last part of the heel to poke out in a frown, that would cause according cutting because the heel wouldn't make full contact with the board with the pokey part at the end.

EDIT: I was using the word recurve incorrectly, I think.


----------



## Barmoley

big_adventure said:


> It cuts damn well! As expected it desparately needs easing on the spine and choil. The offline handle is a non issue. It needs thinning - it's a whopping 1,6mm thick 1cm up from the edge.


Is it wedging in stuff?


----------



## big_adventure

Barmoley said:


> Is it wedging in stuff?



Much less than I'd expect really. I was cutting carrots into slices to make matchsticks, holding them vertical and push cutting down, and it really didnt wedge. I'll still thin it tomorrow.


----------



## Barmoley

big_adventure said:


> Much less than I'd expect really. I was cutting carrots into slices to make matchsticks, holding them vertical and push cutting down, and it really didnt wedge. I'll still thin it tomorrow.


Do what you must ofcourse, just trying to point out that numbers and measurements are all good and all and give you a baseline of sorts. Just don't disregard how it actually cuts. At the end of the day this is why you got it, to try for yourself how it cuts.


----------



## Carl Kotte

Barmoley said:


> Do what you must ofcourse, just trying to point out that numbers and measurements are all good and all and gives you a baseline of sorts. Just don't disregard how it actually cuts. At the end of the day this is why you got it, to try for yourself how it cuts.


The truth!


----------



## big_adventure

Barmoley said:


> Do what you must ofcourse, just trying to point out that numbers and measurements are all good and all and gives you a baseline of sorts. Just don't disregard how it actually cuts. At the end of the day this is why you got it, to try for yourself how it cuts.



100%


----------



## wombat

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> A smile (or upswing as you say) on the back 1/2 cm makes gyutos (especially tall ones with lots of belly) easier to work with. In particular, there's no abrupt stop at the flat spot of the heel when you're push cutting and using the belly of the knife.


A while ago I was trying out a knife for the first time, it had quite a prominent heel with no upswing. I dragged a big scratch across the board on a pull cut. Nothing to do with my poor technique, of course.


----------



## big_adventure

Alright, it's "thin ma Denka" time.

I almost kind of feel bad for doing this - the knife really, truly is an excellent cutter straight out of the box, and it both sticks and wedges much less than I would think given the thickness above the edge and the finishes. Now, it's NOT as good at any of those things as the Togashi honyaki which currently occupies my "favorite cutting tool" slot. But then, that knife is as close to perfection as I have experienced, so coming up short there isn't a _bad_ reference.







Relevant info above on the blades. I won't include every detail in my file, but the one missing one there that is pretty salient (certainly for the weight) is that the honyaki has an ebony handle, which explains the weight difference and the massive balance point difference. It's just that "handle" is like 11 more columns to the right...


----------



## Carl Kotte

big_adventure said:


> Alright, it's "thin ma Denka" time.
> 
> I almost kind of feel bad for doing this - the knife really, truly is an excellent cutter straight out of the box, and it both sticks and wedges much less than I would think given the thickness above the edge and the finishes. Now, it's NOT as good at any of those things as the Togashi honyaki which currently occupies my "favorite cutting tool" slot. But then, that knife is as close to perfection as I have experienced, so coming up short there isn't a _bad_ reference.
> 
> View attachment 118359
> 
> 
> Relevant info above on the blades. I won't include every detail in my file, but the one missing one there that is pretty salient (certainly for the weight) is that the honyaki has an ebony handle, which explains the weight difference and the massive balance point difference. It's just that "handle" is like 11 more columns to the right...


I hope we’ll get some nice ’before/after’ pics!


----------



## big_adventure

Carl Kotte said:


> I hope we’ll get some nice ’before/after’ pics!



I'll post them in a bit. I just finished thinning and sharpening (i oopsied the edge with 60 grit and needed to redo it - at least in my mind). The knife is down to a svelte 164g, we're down to 1.3mm 1cm up from the edge and the flat bevel and hard shoulders are now a convex curve. I need to do some finishing eventually, but an hour and a half on the stones and on the paper is enough for today.


----------



## Carl Kotte

Make that tiramisu train longer!


----------



## big_adventure

Some photos...

Choil before then after:









Spine eased...






Side view, pre-work...






And the thinned and de-ku'ed final product...


----------



## Carl Kotte

big_adventure said:


> Some photos...
> 
> Choil before then after:
> 
> View attachment 118387
> View attachment 118388
> 
> 
> Spine eased...
> 
> View attachment 118389
> 
> 
> Side view, pre-work...
> 
> View attachment 118392
> 
> 
> And the thinned and de-ku'ed final product...
> 
> View attachment 118391


Respect!


----------



## ModRQC

big_adventure said:


> View attachment 118359



Typical TF thickness behind edge, thanks for that, in line with what I discuss into an upcoming thread.

Also typical: what I call the lozenge grind. Mind you, most of the time, it's a rather deformed lozenge with one side ground flatter.

With these typical specs behind the edge (10mm), and adding that typical grind, I'll be very surprised that the knife doesn't wedge in anything dense enough and taller than say 10-15mm. Most thinning of these I see people will work with the "wide" bevel and behind edge. I would advise to attack directly at the shoulders and convex down - or at least push them up a good 5-10mm to make it a decent wide bevel. Of course, pull cutters/mostly tip workers might be spared of some of it.


----------



## big_adventure

If you look at the before shot, it might be clear but it was very much what I think you mean by lozenge - hard shoulders, one side with a much wider angle and thus thicker from the center. Very sharp shoulders. It's not that now.


----------



## panda

I'm not thr only one who destroys brand new KU finishes


----------



## tcmx3

big_adventure said:


> Some photos...
> 
> Choil before then after:
> 
> View attachment 118387
> View attachment 118388
> 
> 
> Spine eased...
> 
> View attachment 118389
> 
> 
> Side view, pre-work...
> 
> View attachment 118392
> 
> 
> And the thinned and de-ku'ed final product...
> 
> View attachment 118391



add up how much time you spent on that, multiply it by whatever your effectively hourly rate at work is (dont forget to add in health care and ira matching if youre fte) and send TF a bill lmao


----------



## big_adventure

panda said:


> I'm not thr only one who destroys brand new KU finishes



Oh hell no. Ku finishes are made for that. 






Blade on the left used to be ku, and by used to be i do mean like 3 weeks ago.


----------



## big_adventure

tcmx3 said:


> add up how much time you spent on that, multiply it by whatever your effectively hourly rate at work is (dont forget to add in health care and ira matching if youre fte) and send TF a bill lmao



I would expect him to just stamp "wabi-sabi" on the bill and mail it back. Which would be awesome and I'd frame a copy and sell the other on ebay.


----------



## Barmoley

big_adventure said:


> Some photos...
> 
> Choil before then after:
> 
> View attachment 118387
> View attachment 118388
> 
> 
> Spine eased...
> 
> View attachment 118389
> 
> 
> Side view, pre-work...
> 
> View attachment 118392
> 
> 
> And the thinned and de-ku'ed final product...
> 
> View attachment 118391



You said it cut well even before, is it closer to your perfection now, or you haven't tried it yet?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Haven't you heathens ever heard of taping up the tables of your knives before thinning to prevent KU loss???


----------



## big_adventure

I'll try it tomorrow and see how it is post mods. Had a dinner tonight that I didn't cook so I didn't get to cut yet.


----------



## ModRQC

big_adventure said:


> If you look at the before shot, it might be clear but it was very much what I think you mean by lozenge - hard shoulders, one side with a much wider angle and thus thicker from the center. Very sharp shoulders. It's not that now.



Oh yeah, lozenge alright it was pretty clear. Good job thinning it but suspect the shoulders will still do their worse, and sure still a bit thick behind the edge too. Nothing you can’t improve with removing more KU. 



nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Haven't you heathens ever heard of taping up the tables of your knives before thinning to prevent KU loss???



Hmmm not in the way I will work a TF, and not of my experience so far all around. Been there. Either the blade road is cut clear and easy to follow, either it’s not and you’ll verse over the tape. One or more of three things happen from there : 1- tape can’t prevent some damage done anyhow 2-tape residue will pollute the stone surface slowing you down considerably cleaning it out 3- and at this stage I for one won’t go into cleaning drying and reapplying tape.

IME... I can see some miraculous occasions where it might work well, or extra care with a TF to follow the wide bevel for example - in which case no need for tape as much as maintaining extra care. Also the tape works well when focusing only behind the edge, useless when pushing up a shinogi or convexing sharp shoulders for obvious reason.

Show us the grind, show us the grind!


----------



## Carl Kotte

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Haven't you heathens ever heard of taping up the tables of your knives before thinning to prevent KU loss???


Lame lame lame lame lame lame LAME!!!!


----------



## Bear

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Haven't you heathens ever heard of taping up the tables of your knives before thinning to prevent KU loss???


Whats the secret, I hate doing that, gums up my stones and rolls up and can't hit what needs it the most


----------



## ModRQC

ModRQC said:


> Oh yeah, lozenge alright it was pretty clear. Good job thinning it but suspect the shoulders will still do their worse, and sure still a bit thick behind the edge too. Nothing you can’t improve with removing more KU.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm not in the way I will work a TF, and not of my experience so far all around. Been there. Either the blade road is cut clear and easy to follow, either it’s not and you’ll verse over the tape. One or more of three things happen from there : 1- tape can’t prevent some damage done anyhow 2-tape residue will pollute the stone surface slowing you down considerably cleaning it out 3- and at this stage I for one won’t go into cleaning drying and reapplying tape.
> 
> IME... I can see some miraculous occasions where it might work well, or extra care with a TF to follow the wide bevel for example - in which case no need for tape as much as maintaining extra care. Also the tape works well when focusing only behind the edge, useless when pushing up a shinogi or convexing sharp shoulders for obvious reason.
> 
> Show us the grind, show us the grind!



Moreover, and without talking in place of @big_adventure, this type of versing over from mid to tip is good practice on thicker knives. To do willingly I mean : did it on Shi.Han and Mabs alike. Like how some Makers like Maz introduce some on purpose but the best work is doing even more! 

KU/Nash/Tsuch down!


----------



## Garm

Granted, it's been a few years since I last bought a knife from them, and none of those were Denkas, but have the people at TF changed the way these are ground? When I hear "sharp shoulders" and "flat bevels" OOTB it's pretty much polar oposites of the Nashijis and Maboroshis I bought from them. Killer convex grinds, the real deal, not a sharp turn, let alone sharp corner in the geometry in sight. Not just a rounded shoulder atop a flat bevel that many pass off as convex grinds.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Bear said:


> Whats the secret, I hate doing that, gums up my stones and rolls up and can't hit what needs it the most



The point isn't to cover everything but the bladeroad, because you'll probably be raising the shinogi/tilting around to convex the kireha.

I cut a stencil in the shape of my edge and place the tape stencil around 1cm above where I want my new thinned shinogi line to end.

Something like this. The goal isn't to avoid KU wear entirely, but to avoid the spots way high up on the table that might incidentally touch the abrasive when thinning. Also sandpaper doesn't clog too much.

This isn't to knock @big_adventure at all - my denka has less KU than his by far lol


----------



## Carl Kotte

No No No, here’s How you do it. Always aim for that Lion. It’s there.


----------



## Bear

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> The point isn't to cover everything but the bladeroad, because you'll probably be raising the shinogi/tilting around to convex the kireha.
> 
> I cut a stencil in the shape of my edge and place the tape stencil around 1cm above where I want my new thinned shinogi line to end.
> 
> Something like this. The goal isn't to avoid KU wear entirely, but to avoid the spots way high up on the table that might incidentally touch the abrasive when thinning. Also sandpaper doesn't clog too much. View attachment 118450


I like the stencil idea, I've tried taping before but it just doesn't work for me, I always end up going freehand

The before 





The after


----------



## ModRQC

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> The point isn't to cover everything but the bladeroad, because you'll probably be raising the shinogi/tilting around to convex the kireha.
> 
> I cut a stencil in the shape of my edge and place the tape stencil around 1cm above where I want my new thinned shinogi line to end.
> 
> Something like this. The goal isn't to avoid KU wear entirely, but to avoid the spots way high up on the table that might incidentally touch the abrasive when thinning. Also sandpaper doesn't clog too much.
> 
> This isn't to knock @big_adventure at all - my denka has less KU than his by far lol
> 
> View attachment 118450


Added tip work too, I like it!

Care to send a choil shot this way? I remember your thread not the choil. Remember I thought you had done good work on it though.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

ModRQC said:


> Added tip work too, I like it!
> 
> Care to send a choil shot this way? I remember your thread not the choil. Remember I thought you had done good work on it though.



Not too thin bte, but it cuts how I like it so I just left it as is.


----------



## Benuser

Was it a belt grinder you've been using with the 60 grit, @big_adventure?


----------



## bruce8088

choil shot really only shows you the thickness at the heel itself - people tend to not spend enough time doing the heel or the tip usually when thinning - so I would really base it on actual cutting dense stuff like carrots or things that would tend to wedge knives.

just for reference here is my 240 denka stock ootb - probably only sharpened it 4 times micro bevel method so far since i've gotten it about 4 yrs ago in person at the shop. I don't really use gyutos these days but it's my go to over any other same length or longer gyuto I have.


----------



## Rangen

I am following this thread closely, all the more so because I have not messed with any of my TF knives yet, and I like seeing into the future.

What I can contribute is my ultimate wedging test, which is also a food release test: raw turnips.

Why would you cut, let alone buy, raw turnips? Because a really good Scotch Broth soup cannot be had without them.


----------



## ian

Benuser said:


> Was it a belt grinder you've been using with the 60 grit, @big_adventure?





big_adventure said:


> Some photos...
> 
> Choil before then after:
> 
> View attachment 118387
> View attachment 118388
> 
> 
> Spine eased...
> 
> View attachment 118389
> 
> 
> Side view, pre-work...
> 
> View attachment 118392
> 
> 
> And the thinned and de-ku'ed final product...
> 
> View attachment 118391



I have to say, rounding spines is kind of a pain to do by hand, but is so utterly trivial on a belt. Was kinda surprised by the difference first time I tried.


----------



## bruce8088

Rangen said:


> I am following this thread closely, all the more so because I have not messed with any of my TF knives yet, and I like seeing into the future.
> 
> What I can contribute is my ultimate wedging test, which is also a food release test: raw turnips.
> 
> Why would you cut, let alone buy, raw turnips? Because a really good Scotch Broth soup cannot be had without them.



I find the ultimate wedge test is cutting lotus roots. Even slicing it can be a chore for 99% of all knives, let along halving or chunk cutting them.. however they are extremely good for hotpots as the fibrous nature of it helps cling on to soup broth and dipping sauce .


----------



## Rangen

bruce8088 said:


> I find the ultimate wedge test is cutting lotus roots. Even slicing it can be a chore for 99% of all knives, let along halving or chunk cutting them.. however they are extremely good for hotpots as the fibrous nature of it helps cling on to soup broth and dipping sauce .



All of this is true. I will suppress my jealousy about how you seem to have an easy time finding fresh lotus root, which I love, and just say this by way of trying to win this small competition: turnips are taller than lotus roots.


----------



## bruce8088

Rangen said:


> All of this is true. I will suppress my jealousy about how you seem to have an easy time finding fresh lotus root, which I love, and just say this by way of trying to win this small competition: turnips are taller than lotus roots.



it's pretty easy to get here in canada since we have a sizable chinese population - definitely not the case in other cities. and yes, turnips def could be taller and larger


----------



## McMan

Original (unthinned) choil shots from three Denka's posted in this thread.
Not trying to stir the pot or anything, just thought it was intersting to see:


----------



## bruce8088

here is another one of mine with the ootb geometry and then after i opened it up by going behind the edge - a 195mm ku maboroshi

ootb

after removing the stock micro bevel by going behind edge

and here is how wabi sabi or unwabi sabi it looks now


----------



## nyc

In all honesty, that looks like a bad thinning job. The shoulders have been taken back a bit but overall there’s only a small difference behind the edge. And the ku. Let’s not get into that. This is how you add more wabi sabi to a TF.


----------



## bruce8088

McMan said:


> Original (unthinned) choil shots from three Denka's posted in this thread.
> Not trying to stir the pot or anything, just thought it was intersting to see:
> View attachment 118490



TF grind variations definitely all over the place but they are also extra accommodating when you reach out via email to pick or make you one that fits the grind you are looking for specifically - just be reasonable and not ask for caliper measurements every few mm down the geometry height wise and length wise.


----------



## nyc

To add to @bruce8088 ’s picture of his nicely thinned Denka, here’s mine. And the ku is 100% intact.


----------



## bruce8088

nyc said:


> To add to @bruce8088 ’s picture of his nicely thinned Denka, here’s mine. And the ku is 100% intact. View attachment 118491



we gotta stop posting these so the prices don't keep going up 

and.... i couldn't refuse posting my tf nakiri as well... @nyc


----------



## nyc

bruce8088 said:


> we gotta stop posting these so the prices don't keep going up
> 
> and.... i couldn't refuse posting my tf nakiri as well... @nyc



Now that’s what you call a proper thinning job.


----------



## bruce8088

nyc said:


> Now that’s what you call a proper thinning job.



it's stock ootb though 

now here is my tf nashiji petty that i did work abit more on - it came stock with an obvious shoulder which i removed via thinning just behind edge up to just abit beyond the core steel area.


----------



## ModRQC

Superb work!




nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Not too thin bte, but it cuts how I like it so I just left it as is.View attachment 118462
> 
> 
> View attachment 118464
> View attachment 118463


----------



## Rangen

Starting to feel bad about doing no work on my TFs and loving them anyway...


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Here’s my Mab, get the Denka tomorrow if there’s no UPS issues.








I swear down one of these days I’m going to drop a knife trying to get the choil shot, I hope it’s not an expensive one.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Heres my TF rectangle veggie death needle


----------



## Rangen

What happened to the balance in this thread? We need some TF haters! I agree with Bruce, this sort of one-sided talk will push the price up.


----------



## Corradobrit1

That's right. Stop uptalking TF's. Their grinds suck. 
This was worked on by the master himself just for complete transparency. I've only touched up the edge on a high grit Jnat for the past 3 years.


----------



## ModRQC

TF are **** and all that...

Not saying I think so, but balance is of penultimate importance in a world without it.



Rangen said:


> What happened to the balance in this thread? We need some TF haters! I agree with Bruce, this sort of one-sided talk will push the price up.


----------



## ModRQC

Now I gotta say, as much as I find "them" TF "fanboys" so redundant and blind to the obvious truth of this maker demise...

that they're rather putting up a hell of an argument so far.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

SUCK MY D*** DIPPED IN SOY SAUCE YOU SONS OF B*CHES 
IT'S TF GANG TILL I DIE





@ModRQC am i doing this balance thing right?


----------



## Corradobrit1

Page 13 needs to be stickied for anyone who is contemplating a dodgy TF. So much WINNING.


----------



## ModRQC

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> SUCK MY D*** DIPPED IN SOY SAUCE YOU SONS OF B*CHES
> IT'S TF GANG TILL I DIE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @ModRQC am i doing this balance thing right?



Not counting my ears will ring forever, yes I think this was needed... there are a lot of other TF hate threads and in-passing lashes to cover up around here.


----------



## ModRQC

Sorry for not being into needles, but... for sakes of P.13:

Original (actual unit)





Convexed into...


----------



## BillHanna

i sold my macy’s backstage nordstrom’s rack ollie’s bargain outlet rose art crayon tf


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

@BillHanna She's well...enough 




Btw, KU was too fragile for tape so I didn't bother

Just keep thinning just keep thinning...


----------



## bruce8088

time to let page 13 go out with a loud bang


----------



## nyc

I was just chatting with @inzite (Ricky) who’s no longer on KKF. He said to me that people who can’t take their knives to stones properly shouldn’t buy TFs. Because they aren’t doing it justice. I thought it was so true that I decided to share it here. 
And the truth is, TFs are “functionally perfectly fine” and can be left the way they are. Because they are intrinsically wicked cutters.


----------



## ian

Ah poor inzite who is no longer on kkf...


----------



## ModRQC

Thirteen forever...

Yeah it sounds like a retard teenage movie...


----------



## nyc

ian said:


> Ah poor inzite who is no longer on kkf...


We need him back to help sort out the myths and half-truths regarding TFs. There’s so much misunderstanding clouding the brand.


----------



## ian

Very true. Like the fact that they're knives and not blanks. 

Anyway, I feel like we hardly need an expert like inzite when we have @bruce8088 and the rest of y'all.


----------



## Dendrobatez

ian said:


> Very true. Like the fact that they're knives and not blanks.
> 
> Anyway, I feel like we hardly need an expert like inzite when we have @bruce8088 and the rest of y'all.




You get the best of both worlds - a knife that feels like an unfinished blank. Still full price of course.


----------



## Rangen

Dendrobatez said:


> You get the best of both worlds - a knife that feels like an unfinished blank. Still full price of course.



Now that's the stuff. Who would want such a knife? No one. OK, I have a half-dozen of them, but that's because of brainwashing or something.


----------



## bruce8088

and back on topic, i know a us store or something is working with a real professional sharpening friend of mine for batches preworked denkas.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

bruce8088 said:


> and back on topic, i know a us store or something is working with a real professional sharpening friend of mine for batches preworked denkas.



They're rarer, KU TF with core steel of white 1 (not AS) with hand-chiseled kanji, if we're thinking of the same person.


----------



## ian

"That hammer mark basically on the edge? It is the second coming of Cindy Crawford's beauty mark. That wobbly edge? Edges that aren't straight improve food release, and after you sharpen the knife a few times the edge will become scalloped, further improving its cutting potential!"

Curious who the sharpener you're talking about is.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Rangen said:


> Now that's the stuff. Who would want such a knife? No one. OK, I have a half-dozen of them, but that's because of brainwashing or something.


What flavor Koolaid did you get?


----------



## Corradobrit1

bruce8088 said:


> and back on topic, i know a us store or something is working with a real professional sharpening friend of mine for batches preworked denkas.


PM details. Would love a nihonto finish on my Denka's


----------



## Rangen

Corradobrit1 said:


> What flavor Koolaid did you get?



Ku, I think. It tastes like paint and sadness and wasted money.


----------



## ian

Rangen said:


> Ku, I think. It tastes like paint and sadness and wasted money.



I have some paint. Thinking about buying @Carl Kotte’s Mab and DIYing a White #1 Denka. Maybe I can get a bulk Mab order and undercut this other order y’all are talking about.


----------



## tcmx3

nyc said:


> I was just chatting with @inzite (Ricky) who’s no longer on KKF. He said to me that people who can’t take their knives to stones properly shouldn’t buy TFs. Because they aren’t doing it justice. I thought it was so true that I decided to share it here.
> And the truth is, TFs are “functionally perfectly fine” and can be left the way they are. Because they are intrinsically wicked cutters.



I mostly agree. But frankly I think this is largely true of most knives, and besides almost everything cuts better without the stupid bead blast finish.

My problem with TF, if you can even call it that, again relates back to something I said earlier that I really and truly believe. When you pay more for a knife, I think you should aim to pay more for materials, or for f&f work you dont have to do yourself, not the basics. TF asks for a lot of money IMO for a knife that IMO is unfinished IMO (notice the IMO, this is just my opinion folks). I am less willing to pay for scarcity, I suppose.

It was mentioned earlier that the Nashiji petty is a great deal and I agree with that. And the Morihei fine finish knives are reasonable, and I agree with that. Unfortunately the latter appear to be difficult to get new anymore which I think is a real shame.


----------



## Koop

tcmx3 said:


> I mostly agree. But frankly I think this is largely true of most knives, and besides almost everything cuts better without the stupid bead blast finish.
> 
> My problem with TF, if you can even call it that, again relates back to something I said earlier that I really and truly believe. When you pay more for a knife, I think you should aim to pay more for materials, or for f&f work you dont have to do yourself, not the basics. TF asks for a lot of money IMO for a knife that IMO is unfinished IMO (notice the IMO, this is just my opinion folks). I am less willing to pay for scarcity, I suppose.
> 
> It was mentioned earlier that the Nashiji petty is a great deal and I agree with that. And the Morihei fine finish knives are reasonable, and I agree with that. Unfortunately the latter appear to be difficult to get new anymore which I think is a real shame.



For someone that wanted this thread locked down and the terminology banned, you sure hung around and posted a lot. HT counts along with materials.


----------



## ModRQC

Please let’s bury that hatchet. Welcome to the grey zone:

It is perfectly okay to love a TF for various, genuine reasons that are more or less shared from noobs to pros that wouldn’t do without one/some;

It is perfectly okay to withold splashing money on any of them for f&f or inconsistency reasons, an amount of them more or less shared from noobs to pros that can do without any of them.

Please try one before counting yourself one of either camp; and please measure any discourse proning either beliefs.

But more importantly, live a full life, with/out TF.


----------



## lemeneid

OOTB choil shots for a 240 Morihei fine finish, 240 Denka and 150 Denka.
The 150 Denka is still my favorite of the lot though, choil shots don’t really matter much.


----------



## ModRQC

lemeneid said:


> OOTB choil shots for a 240 Morihei fine finish, 240 Denka and 150 Denka.
> The 150 Denka is still my favorite of the lot though, choil shots don’t really matter much.
> View attachment 118552
> 
> View attachment 118554
> 
> View attachment 118555


 
Interesting to see... 

My experience with one Mabs shorter knife vs two Gyuto resembles that of your shorter Gyuto vs. both others.


----------



## lemeneid

tcmx3 said:


> I mostly agree. But frankly I think this is largely true of most knives, and besides almost everything cuts better without the stupid bead blast finish.
> 
> My problem with TF, if you can even call it that, again relates back to something I said earlier that I really and truly believe. When you pay more for a knife, I think you should aim to pay more for materials, or for f&f work you dont have to do yourself, not the basics. TF asks for a lot of money IMO for a knife that IMO is unfinished IMO (notice the IMO, this is just my opinion folks). I am less willing to pay for scarcity, I suppose.
> 
> It was mentioned earlier that the Nashiji petty is a great deal and I agree with that. And the Morihei fine finish knives are reasonable, and I agree with that. Unfortunately the latter appear to be difficult to get new anymore which I think is a real shame.



Too many have this impression that the most expensive things must be the best in class in every category. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

Obviously TF does not have F&F on the top of his product design goals, it’s just delivering the best HT and cutting ability. And he is comfortable with the price he is charging as people are buying his knives.

If you want a TF with excellent F&F you can go ahead and buy one of their 150th Anniversary knives and that comes with better than Shig Kitaeji F&F. It’s not that they can’t do it, it’s just not their priority for their regular line knives.


----------



## lemeneid

ModRQC said:


> Interesting to see...
> 
> My experience with one Mabs shorter knife vs two Gyuto resembles that of your shorter Gyuto vs. both others.


Don’t get me wrong though, the Denka beats them all in terms of cutting power. But the smaller knife just feels more fun to use as it’s nimbler.


----------



## captaincaed

daveb said:


> And that gentlemen, is what she said.......


If the girls weren't gone from the forum they are now


----------



## Carl Kotte

This one is going to be the ugliest one in my cabinette for a long time....


----------



## Boynutman

...I secretly suspect KKF mods from sponsoring TF just to have threads like this on the forum...


----------



## nyc

+1



lemeneid said:


> Too many have this impression that the most expensive things must be the best in class in every category. That couldn’t be further from the truth.
> 
> Obviously TF does not have F&F on the top of his product design goals, it’s just delivering the best HT and cutting ability. And he is comfortable with the price he is charging as people are buying his knives.
> 
> If you want a TF with excellent F&F you can go ahead and buy one of their 150th Anniversary knives and that comes with better than Shig Kitaeji F&F. It’s not that they can’t do it, it’s just not their priority for their regular line knives.


----------



## big_adventure

Benuser said:


> Was it a belt grinder you've been using with the 60 grit, @big_adventure?



Nah, just stuck it to a flat plate, then used a fair amount of pressure first, then also did some using a cork sanding block.


----------



## big_adventure

And page 13 of this thread will live on...


----------



## ModRQC

Carl Kotte said:


> View attachment 118559
> 
> 
> 
> This one is going to be the ugliest one in my cabinette for a long time....



Good thing it's on page 14 then.  Is this the ever-increasing 180mm? Decided to give it a workout?


----------



## Carl Kotte

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Not too thin bte, but it cuts how I like it so I just left it as is.View attachment 118462
> 
> 
> View attachment 118464
> View attachment 118463


I dub thee ’Pongo’!


----------



## Carl Kotte

Boynutman said:


> ...I secretly suspect KKF mods from sponsoring TF just to have threads like this on the forum...


I think This is right. I would never had considered a tf if not for this forum.


----------



## ian

Carl Kotte said:


> I think This is right. I would never had considered a tf if not for this forum.



Same with Mazaki. Or really any of the knives I’ve bought in the past 3 years


----------



## Carl Kotte

ian said:


> Same with Mazaki.


No, that’s different. Mazakis look good.


----------



## Bear

Carl Kotte said:


> No, that’s different. Mazakis look good.


Cut good too


----------



## tostadas

After thinning, choil is a bit thicker than the rest of the blade by approx 0.1mm. Here's my "maboroshi" with custom finger choil and everything rounded by hand with sandpaper.


----------



## Carl Kotte

Bear said:


> Cut good too


Yeah, I’ve been very lucky with mine.


----------



## captaincaed

I kinda wonder about word on the street for various makers within the Japanese market. I miss the vendors and workers like @osakajoe who used to comment time to time.


----------



## Carl Kotte

tostadas said:


> After thinning, choil is a bit thicker than the rest of the blade by approx 0.1mm. Here's my "maboroshi" with custom finger choil and everything rounded by hand with sandpaper.


$413!!!


----------



## Corradobrit1

Carl Kotte said:


> Yeah, I’ve been very lucky with mine.


Hey Hey. This is a TF Wabi Sabi thread. No Mazzer "you no like my dammy prices" fanboi posts allowed


----------



## ModRQC

Corradobrit1 said:


> Hey Hey. This is a TF Wabi Sabi thread. No Mazzer "you no like my dammy prices" fanboi posts allowed



But he was talking about a Maz, which in turn is his way to not acknowledge TF’s greatness, which is a concealed wabi-sabi declaration of WAR!!


----------



## big_adventure

TF wabi-sabis all over Maz of course.

FWIW, the thinned and whatever Denka cuts beautifully after wabi-sabi plastic surgery.


----------



## Barmoley

big_adventure said:


> TF wabi-sabis all over Maz of course.
> 
> FWIW, the thinned and whatever Denka cuts beautifully after wabi-sabi plastic surgery.



Nicely done. you took a knife that cut well out of the box and improved it for you. I'd call it a win all around.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Isn’t TF Mazaki with fake eyebrows on and a cigarette in his mouth anyway?


----------



## Carl Kotte

ModRQC said:


> But he was talking about a Maz, which in turn is his way to not acknowledge TF’s greatness, which is a concealed wabi-sabi declaration of WAR!!


Tone it down! I still don’t have a horse in this race. I’m happy for all of you who like your TFs!


----------



## Boynutman

Carl Kotte said:


> I think This is right. I would never had considered a tf if not for this forum.



Me too!!


----------



## McMan

GorillaGrunt said:


> Isn’t TF Mazaki with fake eyebrows on and a cigarette in his mouth anyway?


Wait, what?! It's not the other way around?


----------



## GorillaGrunt

McMan said:


> Wait, what?! It's not the other way around?








Mission Knifepossible: you may have figured out that all blacksmiths are really Mazaki but ha-HA! He was really Jon Voight the whole time! In DOUBLE DISGUISE


----------



## ModRQC

Carl Kotte said:


> Tone it down! I still don’t have a horse in this race. I’m happy for all of you who like your TFs!



That’s wabi-sabi said!


----------



## big_adventure

GorillaGrunt said:


> Isn’t TF Mazaki with fake eyebrows on and a cigarette in his mouth anyway?



Finkel is Einhorn. Einhorn is Finkel. 

WABI-SABI !!!


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Got the Denka. It’s been thinned a bit on one side by a previous owner and cuts like it’s optimized for food release, but not like a big fatty whammer. I hear it pushing in a carrot but it leaves a nice straight cut, not a break.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Few minutes in with the American Mutt; aside from the one low spot by the tip on the left side the bevels seem pretty even and the shoulder area looks straight. The original owner got it from District Cutlery; i don't know if DC makes any special requests of TF or if they have anything done to them here but in that respect it's more finished than my Maboroshis.


----------



## Corradobrit1

GorillaGrunt said:


> Few minutes in with the American Mutt; aside from the one low spot by the tip on the left side the bevels seem pretty even and the shoulder area looks straight. The original owner got it from District Cutlery; i don't know if DC makes any special requests of TF or if they have anything done to them here but in that respect it's more finished than my Maboroshis.View attachment 118749
> View attachment 118750


You got the coverted Wabi Sabi Lite version. Looking good and its still got most of its Ku skin.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Needs prob another session of about the same length as the one I just did and some tip work, but it’s cutting quite a bit more like how I want it to.


----------



## M1k3

Corradobrit1 said:


> Hey Hey. This is a TF Wabi Sabi thread. No Mazzer "you no like my dammy prices" fanboi posts allowed


Lord Mazaki-bot, the great fashionable one and maker of ALL knives, is not pleased.

P.S. I no like dammy price. I no buy.


----------



## ModRQC

Hmmm... 

Wabi-Sabi human-bot sells a whole bot more.






Contempt against faux-wooden is a powerful thing.


----------



## Benuser

Carl Kotte said:


> $413!!!


Must be a typo. Ask $1.413. And add a nice fat overgrind.


----------



## lemeneid

ModRQC said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Wabi-Sabi human-bot sells a whole bot more.
> 
> View attachment 118760
> 
> 
> Contempt against faux-wooden is a powerful thing.


the Japanese Tom Jones


----------



## Carl Kotte

lemeneid said:


> the Japanese Tom Jones
> 
> View attachment 118764
> 
> 
> View attachment 118765


----------



## Brian Weekley

Here’s the pic I took of a potato sliced a few days ago with a custom thinned 210 TF Maboroshi ...






Here’s a pic of a rock stock un-thinned rock stock 210 Maboroshi from Knifewear prepping a potato for scalloped potatoes tonight.






The custom thinned Maboroshi definitely had less stiction but the rock stock Maboroshi was more than satisfactory. I’ll thin the stock Maboroshi when I get around to it but it’s definitely satisfactory in stock condition IMO.


----------



## Rangen

I have to admit that this is the only forum I am involved with that would have posts starting with "Here's the pic I took of a potato." Also the only forum I'm involved with in which I would react to such a post by eagerly studying it. Nice potato work! I know how those will stick, given any opportunity.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Almost there. I still think the left side needs even more as i didn't quite make it to zero yet, but now it's very close to where my Mab is.









As i handle this more I am noticing things that have been mentioned: the tang sticks up a little one one side and down on the other, the weld of the bolster isn't very polished... Not relevant to wa handles of course. And the blade is straight, the shoulders are ground straight, and the bevels are good - just one small low spot where the original grind marks are still visible, less than on my Mab. So i guess i have to say that I fall into the "i don't care" category and value the knife by how it cuts. I've spent a couple hours grinding, like on the other one, but I'd say it's more what you'd expect a chef or user to do (maybe over time) than the level of finish work you'd associate with a knifemaker or modder. I haven't cut much food with it yet but the feel of the edge is distinct even from other hard AS - closer to Yoshi SKD/Gengetsu SS/Heiji SS which is my absolute favorite, so at this point I'd say that there is something notable about the steel as well.


----------



## Brian Weekley

Seems like I’m becoming a potato specialist ... check out this thread.






Like a naughty schoolboy


This is going to be a recommend me a knife thread like you've never seen. I'm not filling out the questionnaire because I only care about one thing. Will it sit quietly in the corner? When I cut that food, I want it to sit there quietly. Every time. No drama, no fuss, no onion tears, just well...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





The second potato was a little older and “starchier” than the first which added to the “stickiness” of the slice. The interesting part (to me) is that my Catcheside really stands out in cutting ability yet it definitely has a thicker convex grind. So what’s the answer ... Takeda ... TF ... Catcheside all perform similarly yet have quite different grinds.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Brian Weekley said:


> So what’s the answer ... Takeda ... TF ... Catcheside all perform similarly yet have quite different grinds.



IMO a good portion of "food release" is technique and not grind (though grind certainly helps).


----------



## tcmx3

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> IMO a good portion of "food release" is technique and not grind (though grind certainly helps).



agreed. technique on your board and technique on your stones (ie finish).


----------



## Rangen

GorillaGrunt said:


> Almost there. I still think the left side needs even more as i didn't quite make it to zero yet, but now it's very close to where my Mab is.



Yeah, that's all very well, but how does it do with a potato?


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Rangen said:


> Yeah, that's all very well, but how does it do with a potato?


Haven’t got any


----------



## Corradobrit1

GorillaGrunt said:


> Haven’t got any


Carrots then


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Corradobrit1 said:


> Carrots then



Pretty darn good it did


----------



## osakajoe

captaincaed said:


> I kinda wonder about word on the street for various makers within the Japanese market. I miss the vendors and workers like @osakajoe who used to comment time to time.


I’m still here. Just not as active as I use to be once the the app version died.


----------



## Boynutman

Anyone secretly sniffs the TF handle sticker in the evening like I do? Man that's a weird old school smell. Maybe it wears off over time.


----------



## panda

Boynutman said:


> Anyone secretly sniffs the TF handle sticker in the evening like I do? Man that's a weird old school smell. Maybe it wears off over time.


weirdest post.of the day winner


----------



## Boynutman

But seriously! Hold it under hot tap water to activate the smell!


----------



## Corradobrit1

Boynutman said:


> But seriously! Hold it under hot tap water to activate the smell!





panda said:


> weirdest post.of the day winner


LOL. More TF WabiSabi. The Denka I received today was stink-free.


----------



## Carl Kotte

Boynutman said:


> Anyone secretly sniffs the TF handle sticker in the evening like I do? Man that's a weird old school smell. Maybe it wears off over time.


So that’s why you want to buy directly from Gaku! The revelation


----------



## Boynutman

Corradobrit1 said:


> LOL. More TF WabiSabi. The Denka I received today was stink-free.



Bummer.


----------



## Corradobrit1

[B][USER=4519]Boynutman[/USER][/B] said:


> Anyone secretly sniffs the TF handle sticker in the evening like I do? Man that's a weird old school smell. Maybe it wears off over time.


Just peel off the sticker. #stickergate


----------



## ModRQC

Boynutman said:


> Anyone secretly sniffs the TF handle sticker in the evening like I do? Man that's a weird old school smell. Maybe it wears off over time.



Tried to lick it? Bet it has a pretty special taste too!


----------



## Corradobrit1

This thread is the epitome of Wabi Sabi. So much weirdness


----------



## DitmasPork

Corradobrit1 said:


> Just peel off the sticker. #stickergate



Do people really keep the sticker on??? Isn't is like wearing a shirt or jeans that still has the price tag attached to it?


----------



## Carl Kotte

Corradobrit1 said:


> LOL. More TF WabiSabi. The Denka I received today was stink-free.


You. Another. Denka.? Why?

Also, weren’t you sad it didn’t smell?


----------



## Carl Kotte

DitmasPork said:


> Do people really keep the sticker on??? Isn't is like wearing a shirt or jeans that still has the price tag attached to it?
> View attachment 119164


I always do that.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Carl Kotte said:


> You. Another. Denka.? Why?


And here we have the weirdest question of the day. Its a toucou Denka duh


----------



## ModRQC

Carl Kotte said:


> You. Another. Denka.? Why?
> 
> Also, weren’t you sad it didn’t smell?





Corradobrit1 said:


> And here we have the weirdest question of the day. Its a toucou Denka duh



Or simply put, why not?


----------



## Carl Kotte

Corradobrit1 said:


> And here we have the weirdest question of the day. Its a toucou Denka duh


Ok! Well that changes everything


----------



## Corradobrit1

Carl Kotte said:


> Ok! Well that changes everything


#pearlsbeforeswine


----------



## Carl Kotte

Corradobrit1 said:


> #pearlsbeforeswine


A Golden box, but No face and No smell... Will you return it?


----------



## Corradobrit1

Carl Kotte said:


> A Golden box, but No face and No smell... Will you return it?


No way. Its a collectors piece.


----------



## Carl Kotte

Corradobrit1 said:


> No way. Its a collectors piece.


Ok, I’m catching up here.


----------



## Boynutman

Maybe you can back order a Mabaroshi sticker?
You're missing out man!


----------



## McMan

DitmasPork said:


> Do people really keep the sticker on??? Isn't is like wearing a shirt or jeans that still has the price tag attached to it?
> View attachment 119164


----------



## big_adventure

This is my Denka box, TF towel and Denka with extra Wabi-Sabi.






Sticker still intact. They can't put a handle on straight, but that sticker will survive nuclear holocaust.


----------



## Boynutman

Smell the sticker.


----------



## big_adventure

Boynutman said:


> Smell the sticker.
> 
> View attachment 119224



Challenge: accepted.


----------



## inferno

ian said:


> I also wouldn’t mind having a TF blank, given the great HT. Too bad they’re so expensive.


they are all blanks.


----------



## big_adventure

inferno said:


> they are all blanks.



This isn't that far from true: I've definitely done more to my TF than to pretty much every other knife on my strip, and it's the newest knife there. 

And to be as fair as one might be, it was already an excellent cutter OOTB, so it didn't strictly need any of that. It's just better now. And if you are going to have a wabi-sabi special, you should get as much extra wabi-sabi as you can get, right?


----------



## Corradobrit1

The Wabi Sabi Family Portrait


----------



## inferno

why even have all of those?


----------



## Corradobrit1

inferno said:


> why even have all of those?


TFTFTFTFTF


----------



## ian

inferno said:


> they are all blanks.



Exactly, that’s what I meant by them being expensive!


----------



## Corradobrit1

inferno said:


> they are all blanks.


Yeah they cut like


----------



## Carl Kotte

Corradobrit1 said:


> Yeah they cut like


But they are nice to look at.


----------



## Barmoley

big_adventure said:


> This isn't that far from true: I've definitely done more to my TF than to pretty much every other knife on my strip, and it's the newest knife there.
> 
> And to be as fair as one might be, it was already an excellent cutter OOTB, so it didn't strictly need any of that. It's just better now. And if you are going to have a wabi-sabi special, you should get as much extra wabi-sabi as you can get, right?


I bet you could improve many knives if you worked on them more from the get go. Like you said it didn't need it and that's the bottom line.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Hows this for Wabi Sabi. My thicker grind 195 cuts better than the thinner 210. Was not expecting that. It powers effortlessly through 
Thinness behind the edge is not the be all and end all of how well a blade cuts. I now understand what lemeneid says when he refers to his thicc petty as his best TF cutter. There's so much to this Wabi Sabiness.


----------



## inferno

seriously guys if you like wabi sabi i can cobble up 30 blades for you in 1 day. like the droup grop, or mass group, or group **** or whatever its called. 
its ikea style. i provide the materials, you do all the work. 500. any takers??

didn't think so. gonna be better than tf though. fairly certain of that. ikea guys, ikea, never forget.


----------



## inferno

Corradobrit1 said:


> Yeah they cut like



they cut like bricks? no wonder these are so popular.


----------



## M1k3

Corradobrit1 said:


> Yeah they cut like


Do they smell like  though?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

M1k3 said:


> Do they smell like  though?



the expensive magic white ones, yes 

having a rough day or a busy shift - a sniff or two and you're good to go


----------



## lemeneid

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> the expensive magic white ones, yes
> 
> having a rough day or a busy shift - a sniff or two and you're good to go


So instead of doing coke, you’re doing TF Denka stickers?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

lemeneid said:


> So instead of doing coke, you’re doing TF Denka stickers?



not mutually exclusive


----------



## GorillaGrunt

inferno said:


> seriously guys if you like wabi sabi i can cobble up 30 blades for you in 1 day.



dudes i figured it out inferno is really Mazaki


----------



## panda

Corradobrit1 said:


> Hows this for Wabi Sabi. My thicker grind 195 cuts better than the thinner 210. Was not expecting that. It powers effortlessly through
> Thinness behind the edge is not the be all and end all of how well a blade cuts. I now understand what lemeneid says when he refers to his thicc petty as his best TF cutter. There's so much to this Wabi Sabiness.


it's about convexity not thinness. big misconception around here.


----------



## panda

I've modified every single knife I own, and coincidentally my favorite one (miz ks) i have barely even fuxed with. I actually intentionally made it thicker behind the edge which added even more convexity. the tip.could use some.thinning but I rather leave it alone as it cuts so well.


----------



## big_adventure

Barmoley said:


> I bet you could improve many knives if you worked on them more from the get go. Like you said it didn't need it and that's the bottom line.



For sure! Also, different tools are left optimized for different purposes. I have a Hinoura 240 that is pretty thick (I'm not 14 years old, I know there's a k in there somewhere), and I really have no desire to thin it at all. It cuts well, it's a solid big blade, and I like it like that. I also don't reach for it first or second... but I'm not sure that the grind is the reason, as the 240s that come off the strip first have their own, er, edges.



Corradobrit1 said:


> Hows this for Wabi Sabi. My thicker grind 195 cuts better than the thinner 210. Was not expecting that. It powers effortlessly through
> Thinness behind the edge is not the be all and end all of how well a blade cuts. I now understand what lemeneid says when he refers to his thicc petty as his best TF cutter. There's so much to this Wabi Sabiness.



This is entirely true. I see a lot of people overly worrying about caliper measurements when how the blade goes through food is sort of the point of these tools. The profile, the edge, the produce in question all have a huge effect on performance. My Denka is actually the tallest knife at the heel on my strip at 54.5mm, all that from a blade with a 214mm edge. It actually requires an adaptation to my usual cutting style to smoothly go through everything as compared to some of my other blades. 



M1k3 said:


> Do they smell like  though?



Only the Yo handles, given that they look like bricks. 



nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> not mutually exclusive



Little known fact: this is both why TFs are relatively expensive and why they have so many overgrinds - cocaine in the stickers.



panda said:


> it's about convexity not thinness. big misconception around here.



I would say that's still oversimplifying somewhat - you need a sharp, relatively narrow cutting edge to get into the food, a good profile and finish to slide through it easily, convexity or further grind to avoid suction and to promote good release. There's a lot of moving parts here, for a tool with no moving parts.


----------



## lemeneid

big_adventure said:


> Little known fact: this is both why TFs are relatively expensive and why they have so many overgrinds - cocaine in the stickers.


TFIV offered me a smoke at the shop. Though I’m not entirely too sure what it was


----------



## BillHanna

lemeneid said:


> TFIV offered me a smoke at the shop. Though I’m not entirely too sure what it was


AFTER you take a toke is when HappyTime starts.


----------



## Bear

big_adventure said:


> I would say that's still oversimplifying somewhat - you need a sharp, relatively narrow cutting edge to get into the food, a good profile and finish to slide through it easily, convexity or further grind to avoid suction and to promote good release. There's a lot of moving parts here, for a tool with no moving parts.



I just got this 150 Mabs from BST, it came in with a good edge but it needs a thinning, sorry, certain knives I'll keep all that convexity but if a sharp knife mashes a ripe cherry tomato or clove of garlic I don't have any qualms about thinning it. This one has to be thinned anyway the cladding comes down too far, plus the tip has a flat section that drives me crazy.

What good are stainless clad knives if they hang up halfway though an onion?


----------



## big_adventure

Bear said:


> I just got this 150 Mabs from BST, it came in with a good edge but it needs a thinning, sorry, certain knives I'll keep all that convexity but if a sharp knife mashes a ripe cherry tomato or clove of garlic I don't have any qualms about thinning it. This one has to be thinned anyway the cladding comes down too far, plus the tip has a flat section that drives me crazy.
> 
> What good are stainless clad knives if they hang up halfway though an onion?



The cladding is really low on that guy there. Definite thinning candidate. Have fun getting stoned with it. Don't forget to smell the sticker. If it doesn't have a sticker anymore, just sniff the screen of your phone on the TF website. I hear that works as well.


----------



## Corradobrit1

panda said:


> it's about convexity not thinness. big misconception around here.


Agreed, but its not as simple as that. Sure convexity plays a major part but also where it starts and its progression ie geometry, that's important as well. Edge thinness has a role to play too and its the subtle interplay between these two aspects that results in a great or poor cutter. I had a Denka with plenty of convexity but it was the worse wedge monster I've encountered because the convexity was too low and severe on the blade road.


----------



## Bear

much better now











Handle's next


----------



## Boynutman

Damn that looks good now, really nice finish. What stone did you use?


----------



## Bear

> [Damn that looks good now, really nice finish. What stone did you use?



SG2K after prep with sandpaper


----------



## DitmasPork

ian said:


> Ah poor inzite who is no longer on kkf...


Here's still here, just a different name.


----------



## DitmasPork

tcmx3 said:


> I mostly agree. But frankly I think this is largely true of most knives, and besides almost everything cuts better without the stupid bead blast finish.
> 
> My problem with TF, if you can even call it that, again relates back to something I said earlier that I really and truly believe. When you pay more for a knife, I think you should aim to pay more for materials, or for f&f work you dont have to do yourself, not the basics. TF asks for a lot of money IMO for a knife that IMO is unfinished IMO (notice the IMO, this is just my opinion folks). I am less willing to pay for scarcity, I suppose.
> 
> It was mentioned earlier that the Nashiji petty is a great deal and I agree with that. And the Morihei fine finish knives are reasonable, and I agree with that. Unfortunately the latter appear to be difficult to get new anymore which I think is a real shame.



Respectfully. Does everything come down to price? For me, it's probably the least of my concerns when shopping for a gyuto—if I can't afford something, I'll look elsewhere. I don't really care if there are better priced options if I'm zeroed into a particular knife—that's the nature of collecting, when your heart skips a beat or starts racing at the thought of a certain knife.

When you said, "When you pay more for a knife, I think you should aim to pay more for materials, or for f&f work you dont have to do yourself, not the basics." Those are based on what you value in a knife purchase, which is totally cool—but not a given, because every knife buyer is different.

Below, a denka and a ux10. The latter is probably one of the more perfectly finished gyutos, every example I've seen consistently finished—even grind, no wonky handle issue—I'd honestly not be unhappy if it were the only knife I used in the kitchen, nothing about it hampers my cooking. But, alas, I've the luxury of owning more than one knife!

To the OP, I've excepted the inherent 'wabi-sabi' of TF, knowing not to impose my desire for a a certain grind, or finish, or whatever—learned to let go and just accept the knife's idiosyncrasies and adapt if needed. Although the ux10 works perfectly fine in my kitchen, I'll grab the denka 24/7 over the more perfect, shiny example from Misono—the denka just cuts more enthusiastically, the feel of the steel is something special, the denka's aesthetics far into my wheelhouse. My denka ended up being one of my better performing gyutos—I was willing to take the gamble. I actually can't think of anyone I know that received a bad denka—I'm sure they exist, as with all makers—not to beat a dead horse, but appears the bulk criticism of denkas from non-denka owners.

Really comes down to personal preferences.


----------



## DitmasPork

Corradobrit1 said:


> The Wabi Sabi Family Portrait


Do those stickers have a scent? Honest question.


----------



## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> Do those stickers have a scent? Honest question.


Yes, once I've gelled with a particular knife, what I spent to acquire it is long forgotten. I just enjoy using it every time I pick it up. The new gyuto is a keeper and its teaching me a lot about my personal preferences. I've noticed some definite wabi sabi but it has no impact on the performance or feel in the hand. This is the essence of a TF.
If we don't gel (and thats happened many times) it gets sold or relegated to collector status, no matter what the knife.

I can confirm no smells from the stickers.


----------



## DitmasPork

Corradobrit1 said:


> Yes, once I've gelled with a particular knife, what I spent to acquire it is long forgotten. I just enjoy using it every time I pick it up. The new gyuto is a keeper and its teaching me a lot about my personal preferences. I've noticed some definite wabi sabi but it has no impact on the performance or feel in the hand. This is this the essence of a TF.
> If I don't gel (and thats happened many times) it gets sold or relegated to collector status, no matter what the knife.
> 
> I can confirm no smells from the stickers.



The way I look at it—is that it's a 'false economy' to save a couple hundred dollars, on a cheaper knife, in place of a knife that'll keep me happy for years.


----------



## Corradobrit1

I guess some users are more in tune with the je ne sais quoi of a particular knife or brand. I would take a Ducati over a Honda every time, not because they might be 'better' but because they elicit an inner, base response in me. Same goes for TF. They do everything I want from a knife, so well that I can overlook their foibles.


----------



## Boynutman

DitmasPork said:


> Do those stickers have a scent? Honest question.



Mine did. I figure TF had a minimum order quantity of 200 sheets with 2400 stickers each back in the 70'ies when he set up shop, still using that batch. Don't know what glue they used back then. But when I ran warm tap water over it cleaning after unboxing... definitely.


----------



## Brian Weekley

DitmasPork said:


> The way I look at it—is that it's a 'false economy' to save a couple hundred dollars, on a cheaper knife, in place of a knife that'll keep me happy for years.



The way I have always thought is that the most expensive purchase is the thing I buy twice. The first time I buy is based upon the false thought that I can be just as happy with a cheap imitation of what I want in order to save a few bucks. It never works out that way. After a short while I become dissatisfied with my cheaper purchase, sell it at a loss and pay the higher price for what I wanted in the first place.


----------



## DitmasPork

Boynutman said:


> Mine did. I figure TF had a minimum order quantity of 200 sheets with 2400 stickers each back in the 70'ies when he set up shop, still using that batch. Don't know what glue they used back then. But when I ran warm tap water over it cleaning after unboxing... definitely.



Did you buy the TF body lotion and cologne combo?


----------



## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> Did you buy the TF body lotion and cologne combo?
> 
> View attachment 119405


Eau de wabi-sabi?


----------



## Qapla'

Corradobrit1 said:


> Eau de wabi-sabi?


Would francophones spell it "ouabissabi"? Or would they be required to translate "wabi-sabi" into French?


----------



## mmiinngg

How many of you have bought a tf since the beginning of this thread?

Wait, is this some kind of dark kkf massdrop?


----------



## Corradobrit1

mmiinngg said:


> How many of you have bought a tf since the beginning of this thread?


. My 7th I've gotten direct. Can't get enough wabi sabi.


----------



## mmiinngg

Corradobrit1 said:


> . My 7th I've gotten direct. Can't get enough wabi sabi.


Hmmm... I guess it doesn't count then


----------



## Carl Kotte

mmiinngg said:


> How many of you have bought a tf since the beginning of this thread?
> 
> Wait, is this some kind of dark kkf massdrop?


I’ve tried to sell one.


----------



## DitmasPork

Qapla' said:


> Would francophones spell it "ouabissabi"? Or would they be required to translate "wabi-sabi" into French?



Tried translating, thought it would be something more interesting.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Carl Kotte said:


> I’ve tried to sell one.


GLWS


----------



## Qapla'

DitmasPork said:


> Tried translating, thought it would be something more interesting.
> View attachment 119415


There clearly the input rendering is flawed; it rendered 侘寂 as "wasabi" (check the left side of your picture) and not "wabi-sabi"


----------



## Corradobrit1

Qapla' said:


> There clearly the input rendering is flawed; it rendered 侘寂 as "wasabi" (check the left side of your picture) and not "wabi-sabi"


Don't blame DP, blame Google translate


----------



## Qapla'

Corradobrit1 said:


> Don't blame DP, blame Google translateView attachment 119425


Correct, I said they rendered the input wrong. Not that he wrote the wrong input (he did in fact write the right input).


----------



## lemeneid

This sniffing stickers thing reminds me of my younger days where you used to have stickers, and when you rubbed them, a grape scent was released.
Maybe TF should come up with a scent more adult-friendly for all us knife nuts


----------



## Corradobrit1

lemeneid said:


> This sniffing stickers thing reminds me of my younger days where you used to have stickers, and when you rubbed them, a grape scent was released.
> Maybe TF should come up with a scent more adult-friendly for all us knife nuts


Scratch'n'sniff. They still put those things on air freshener retail packaging. Sniffing stickers out in public is perfectly acceptable.


----------



## tcmx3

DitmasPork said:


> Respectfully. Does everything come down to price?



In a monetary transaction, yes, it turns out, it does.

if you ask a price for a thing, you have to justify why it's that price. I dont care if things are expensive. I collect guitars and Leica cameras, a Denka is pocket change in comparison. But I think the price being asked for them is way out of line with what they're giving you. One merely has to look at Jiro, an innumerable number of good honyakis, any of the better sharpened Y Tanakas and Togashis, even some of TF's other offerings to see how stark it is. Frankly a Kato for 1400 dollars, another ridiculous out of step valuation, makes more sense.

Money is an encapsulation of labor and material cost, and TF thinks their little formula for that justifies an insane price increase from 210 to 240, or to send out 900 dollar knives with the fit and finish of a new apprentice. If people want to buy into that I cant stop it, but I really do suspect it's the same crowd overpaying for Katos, vintage Fenders that were put together with bits from bins or pedestrian muscle cars. 

Ive tried to be done with this convo because a bunch of boomers want to spend their money this way and I cant stop it and even if I could I wouldnt because people are free to do what they want but what is frustrating is that observationally I think a lot of folks are lying to themselves and wont just admit the pricing is absolutely out of line and the implication that a TF is all that special is just... wow I mean no. They're good knives sure but they're not special.


----------



## Corradobrit1

tcmx3 said:


> In a monetary transaction, yes, it turns out, it does.
> 
> if you ask a price for a thing, you have to justify why it's that price. I dont care if things are expensive. I collect guitars and Leica cameras, a Denka is pocket change in comparison. But I think the price being asked for them is way out of line with what they're giving you. One merely has to look at Jiro, an innumerable number of good honyakis, any of the better sharpened Y Tanakas and Togashis, even some of TF's other offerings to see how stark it is. Frankly a Kato for 1400 dollars, another ridiculous out of step valuation, makes more sense.
> 
> Money is an encapsulation of labor and material cost, and TF thinks their little formula for that justifies an insane price increase from 210 to 240, or to send out 900 dollar knives with the fit and finish of a new apprentice. If people want to buy into that I cant stop it, but I really do suspect it's the same crowd overpaying for Katos, vintage Fenders that were put together with bits from bins or pedestrian muscle cars.
> 
> Ive tried to be done with this convo because a bunch of boomers want to spend their money this way and I cant stop it and even if I could I wouldnt because people are free to do what they want but what is frustrating is that observationally I think a lot of folks are lying to themselves and wont just admit the pricing is absolutely out of line and the implication that a TF is all that special is just... wow I mean no. They're good knives sure but they're not special.


Easy, just don't buy TF 240+ knives or get a Morihei Hisamoto.


----------



## lemeneid

tcmx3 said:


> In a monetary transaction, yes, it turns out, it does.
> 
> if you ask a price for a thing, you have to justify why it's that price. I dont care if things are expensive. I collect guitars and Leica cameras, a Denka is pocket change in comparison. But I think the price being asked for them is way out of line with what they're giving you. One merely has to look at Jiro, an innumerable number of good honyakis, any of the better sharpened Y Tanakas and Togashis, even some of TF's other offerings to see how stark it is. Frankly a Kato for 1400 dollars, another ridiculous out of step valuation, makes more sense.
> 
> Money is an encapsulation of labor and material cost, and TF thinks their little formula for that justifies an insane price increase from 210 to 240, or to send out 900 dollar knives with the fit and finish of a new apprentice. If people want to buy into that I cant stop it, but I really do suspect it's the same crowd overpaying for Katos, vintage Fenders that were put together with bits from bins or pedestrian muscle cars.
> 
> Ive tried to be done with this convo because a bunch of boomers want to spend their money this way and I cant stop it and even if I could I wouldnt because people are free to do what they want but what is frustrating is that observationally I think a lot of folks are lying to themselves and wont just admit the pricing is absolutely out of line and the implication that a TF is all that special is just... wow I mean no. They're good knives sure but they're not special.


----------



## tcmx3

lemeneid said:


> View attachment 119434



I take extreme pride in knowing you of all people dont like what I said.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

DitmasPork said:


> Here's still here, just a different name.


Just like Mazaki

Bazinga


----------



## vxd

Good thread!


----------



## Barmoley

tcmx3 said:


> In a monetary transaction, yes, it turns out, it does.
> 
> if you ask a price for a thing, you have to justify why it's that price. I dont care if things are expensive. I collect guitars and Leica cameras, a Denka is pocket change in comparison. But I think the price being asked for them is way out of line with what they're giving you. One merely has to look at Jiro, an innumerable number of good honyakis, any of the better sharpened Y Tanakas and Togashis, even some of TF's other offerings to see how stark it is. Frankly a Kato for 1400 dollars, another ridiculous out of step valuation, makes more sense.
> 
> Money is an encapsulation of labor and material cost, and TF thinks their little formula for that justifies an insane price increase from 210 to 240, or to send out 900 dollar knives with the fit and finish of a new apprentice. If people want to buy into that I cant stop it, but I really do suspect it's the same crowd overpaying for Katos, vintage Fenders that were put together with bits from bins or pedestrian muscle cars.
> 
> Ive tried to be done with this convo because a bunch of boomers want to spend their money this way and I cant stop it and even if I could I wouldnt because people are free to do what they want but what is frustrating is that observationally I think a lot of folks are lying to themselves and wont just admit the pricing is absolutely out of line and the implication that a TF is all that special is just... wow I mean no. They're good knives sure but they're not special.


That’s just your arrogance talking, we all do it, many smart, educated people make the mistake of believing that if something doesn’t make sense to them there must be something wrong with it. Let it go. You don’t understand and that‘s ok. TF has been around for a while, they clearly can sustain the pricing they charge for the product they sell. The jump in price from 210 to 240 doesn’t make sense to us, but is obviously sustainable and most likely has to do with over 210 mm gyutos being produced for foreign buyers, whom are willing to pay for them. Just a guess. It is also unreasonable to pay much more for 30 mm of extra edge and yet we do it. Clearly anything that can be done with 240 can be done with 210. I tried kato, jiro, tf and prefer tf at the same price, it is a much better knife to me. This has absolutely no barring on the value others place on jiro or kato or whatever. 

I am not even a TF fan, I have one denka I like and not planning on buying any more, just tired of hearing about TF being over priced or whatever by people that don’t get them and worst yet never tried one.


----------



## nyc

I think it isn’t so much the issue of price but the perception of the value that comes with it. Essentially and justifiably so, buyers can rightfully expect a certain level of “quality” and “fit and finish” when they part with their cash. And in this respect TF is bound to fall short in the eyes of certain buyers. But we do have to remember that this perception is subjective.
So while there are KKF members here who adore Jiro, I am unmoved. I think they are horribly overpriced for a maker with very little history. The numbering of the knives is getting ridiculous (especially when it isn’t a limited edition). What number are they at now?
And some sellers had increased the prices on their webstores after one is sold setting the stage for the higher asking price at the next restock. Gotta choke the supply too if you’re gonna number them. That was completely and utterly avaricious. And still they sell. Oh, how we lapped them up all the same.
In my honest opinion that was some of the shrewdest marketing ploys targeted at the Western market. That numbering and personal note. That and the romance of the lone knife maker (who may also gets knives OEMd elsewhere to keep up with demand).
I haven’t tried a Jiro before nor will I ever. The value that I perceive I will get doesn’t commensurate with the price I’m paying. I don’t care for the numbering nor the personal note. They do nothing for me. I’d say this though, I bet Jiro cuts like a knife. Just like a TF.


----------



## tcmx3

Barmoley said:


> Let it go.



I was asked a direct question which I was answering.

If you have a problem with that idgaf.

Arrogance? Not getting it? Whatever. At least when I buy something overpriced simply because I want it I have the ability to admit it instead of to make a whole thread where I try and co-opt someone else's culture to justify my credit card bills like the OP.

If you dont want to hear that TF is overpriced you're going to have to put an awful lot of people on your ignore list, which is your prerogative. Sounds like maybe you should take your own advice on that front.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Barmoley said:


> The jump in price from 210 to 240 doesn’t make sense to us, but is obviously sustainable and most likely has to do with over 210 mm gyutos being produced for foreign buyers, whom are willing to pay for them..


Thats the best explanation I've heard yet for the massive price differential.


----------



## Barmoley

tcmx3 said:


> I was asked a direct question which I was answering.
> 
> If you have a problem with that idgaf.
> 
> Arrogance? Not getting it? Whatever. At least when I buy something overpriced simply because I want it I have the ability to admit it instead of to make a whole thread where I try and co-opt someone else's culture to justify my credit card bills like the OP.
> 
> If you dont want to hear that TF is overpriced you're going to have to put an awful lot of people on your ignore list, which is your prerogative. Sounds like maybe you should take your own advice on that front.


You are most definitely correct that I should take my own advice and let it go. As I explained somewhere at the top, TF bashing in random threads not related to TF discussions is really what bugs me. In TF threads bash away. My goal is to prevent this pollution of unrelated threads by TF hate or love. It is annoying and irrelevant. You seem to be unwilling to understand or agree that “overpriced” is not an exact term. There is no definition of what that is as related to particular item. If it sells and sells well it is not overpriced for most buyers, it might be overpriced for you. In this sense there is nothing to admit. When you drive your M4 it is overpriced for anyone looking for a car to get from a to b. It might be an excellent value for the performance it gives for someone driving a Ferrari.

It is really puzzling that you seem to lack respect for older generations and yet one of your favorite knives was made by one of the older smiths, so you must agree experience has value.


----------



## ModRQC

Buying guitars and Leicas much more expensive than a TF? Wow, no just no.

And by far the worst economical statement I ever heard to date.

Come on... This


tcmx3 said:


> In a monetary transaction, yes, it turns out, it does.
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> if you ask a price for a thing, you have to justify why it's that price. I dont care if things are expensive. I collect guitars and Leica cameras, a Denka is pocket change in comparison. But I think the price being asked for them is way out of line with what they're giving you. One merely has to look at Jiro, an innumerable number of good honyakis, any of the better sharpened Y Tanakas and Togashis, even some of TF's other offerings to see how stark it is. Frankly a Kato for 1400 dollars, another ridiculous out of step valuation, makes more sense.
> 
> Circling... and proving your first statement wrong.
> 
> Money is an encapsulation of labor and material cost, and TF thinks their little formula for that justifies an insane price increase from 210 to 240, or to send out 900 dollar knives with the fit and finish of a new apprentice. If people want to buy into that I cant stop it, but I really do suspect it's the same crowd overpaying for Katos, vintage Fenders that were put together with bits from bins or pedestrian muscle cars.
> 
> More circling...
> 
> Ive tried to be done with this convo because a bunch of boomers want to spend their money this way and I cant stop it and even if I could I wouldnt because people are free to do what they want but what is frustrating is that observationally I think a lot of folks are lying to themselves and wont just admit the pricing is absolutely out of line and the implication that a TF is all that special is just... wow I mean no. They're good knives sure but they're not special.
> 
> Boomers?


----------



## Brian Weekley

I vote that we morph this thread into a “what’s more over-priced than a TF“ thread.

I’ll go first ....

Three Wives .... match that TF ... you’re bush league compared to any one of them.., and

Anything that floats ... without my boat I wouldn’t have to have any stainless knives at all ...,

Not To forget contributions from previous posts ....

Leica cameras ... and with a Leica you don’t have to strop it after every third session ..., and

Any guitar ... I think it would have to be an “extra special” guitar actually.


.... Your turn


----------



## Carl Kotte

Idk, for me, anything I buy for myself that costs more than $250 must shine in one way or other. If it doesn’t I don’t consider it worth the money.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Depends on what it is. For me i can quantify it somewhat but really it's after a bit of use when I decide whether it's worth it or not. And really none of these are worth it in any rational way: is a Denka 300-500% more efficient or comfortable or whichever attribute than a Mac? That scalability i think tops out around $150. Even Raquin and Martell, two of what i consider my highest and purest performing knives aren't necessarily twice as good in any measurable way as Takamura, Yoshikane, S Tanaka...

But on the other hand I'd rather have one Raquin than three Macs, and personally one Denka over two Yoshikanes. I haven't gotten to the point yet where I'm buying a Kato over two $600 knives, but after the passaround it's just a matter of time. So whereas it's difficult to make a case for these being appropriately valued in an objective way, I'd say they are appropriately valued in an economic way as evidenced by the fact that we buy them. Among the subset of people who have already deemed spending $500-1000 on a kitchen knife to be worthwhile, that's what they cost and enough of us pay it, accepting the opportunity cost of not spending those funds on something else. I'm happy with my TF purchases so far.







I get that this is different as it's neither a functional tool nor a newly produced consumer product. But i needed to replace and move around some runner rugs and picked this one, an antique Ardebil. The pile is so shot it feels almost like burlap, the colors are faded, the edges aren't unraveling but they're sure not perfect ... But the pattern and the way it fits into my space is beautiful and I'm more satisfied having bought this than any of the other options. Interestingly i get a lot of compliments on it from people who aren't particularly rug or design geeks either!


----------



## lemeneid

GorillaGrunt said:


> Depends on what it is. For me i can quantify it somewhat but really it's after a bit of use when I decide whether it's worth it or not. And really none of these are worth it in any rational way: is a Denka 300-500% more efficient or comfortable or whichever attribute than a Mac? That scalability i think tops out around $150. Even Raquin and Martell, two of what i consider my highest and purest performing knives aren't necessarily twice as good in any measurable way as Takamura, Yoshikane, S Tanaka...
> 
> But on the other hand I'd rather have one Raquin than three Macs, and personally one Denka over two Yoshikanes. I haven't gotten to the point yet where I'm buying a Kato over two $600 knives, but after the passaround it's just a matter of time. So whereas it's difficult to make a case for these being appropriately valued in an objective way, I'd say they are appropriately valued in an economic way as evidenced by the fact that we buy them. Among the subset of people who have already deemed spending $500-1000 on a kitchen knife to be worthwhile, that's what they cost and enough of us pay it, accepting the opportunity cost of not spending those funds on something else. I'm happy with my TF purchases so far.
> 
> View attachment 119506
> 
> 
> I get that this is different as it's neither a fictional tool nor a newly produced consumer product. But i needed to replace and move around some runner rugs and picked this one, an antique Ardebil. The pile is so shot it feels almost like burlap, the colors are faded, the edges aren't unraveling but they're sure not perfect ... But the pattern and the way it fits into my space is beautiful and I'm more satisfied having bought this than any of the other options. Interestingly i get a lot of compliments on it from people who aren't particularly rug or design geeks either!


That carpet has some sweet wabi-sabi going on


----------



## GorillaGrunt

It's made by TF with a fake handlebar mustache and a fez


----------



## BillHanna

GorillaGrunt said:


> It's made by TF with a fake handlebar mustache and a fez


Are you SURE it wasn’t Mazaki?


----------



## ian

GorillaGrunt said:


> Depends on what it is. For me i can quantify it somewhat but really it's after a bit of use when I decide whether it's worth it or not. And really none of these are worth it in any rational way: is a Denka 300-500% more efficient or comfortable or whichever attribute than a Mac? That scalability i think tops out around $150. Even Raquin and Martell, two of what i consider my highest and purest performing knives aren't necessarily twice as good in any measurable way as Takamura, Yoshikane, S Tanaka...
> 
> But on the other hand I'd rather have one Raquin than three Macs, and personally one Denka over two Yoshikanes. I haven't gotten to the point yet where I'm buying a Kato over two $600 knives, but after the passaround it's just a matter of time. So whereas it's difficult to make a case for these being appropriately valued in an objective way, I'd say they are appropriately valued in an economic way as evidenced by the fact that we buy them. Among the subset of people who have already deemed spending $500-1000 on a kitchen knife to be worthwhile, that's what they cost and enough of us pay it, accepting the opportunity cost of not spending those funds on something else. I'm happy with my TF purchases so far.
> 
> View attachment 119506
> 
> 
> I get that this is different as it's neither a fictional tool nor a newly produced consumer product. But i needed to replace and move around some runner rugs and picked this one, an antique Ardebil. The pile is so shot it feels almost like burlap, the colors are faded, the edges aren't unraveling but they're sure not perfect ... But the pattern and the way it fits into my space is beautiful and I'm more satisfied having bought this than any of the other options. Interestingly i get a lot of compliments on it from people who aren't particularly rug or design geeks either!



that rug really ties the room together


----------



## Boynutman

lemeneid said:


> That carpet has some sweet wabi-sabi going on



But does it smell?


----------



## Boynutman

For me, I gravitated towards TF at this point in my journey because here's what I wanted to try: tall blade, shirogami or aogami, stainless cladding, good food release, forward balance, western handle, confirmed good cutter.
Not many knives thick all these boxes. Certainly no cheap ones. A local vendor had a TF Mab 210 in stock so I could check it out, and there you go.

The wabisabi was no goal in itself but it does make me feel less anxious to try tune the blade to my preferences (hope I don't screw up).

Based on this I thought pricing reasonable.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

BillHanna said:


> Are you SURE it wasn’t Mazaki?


Mazaki makes all the knives to cover up the fact that the real TF is actually a weaver who makes all the rugs. With a whole bunch of fezzes for the different disguises


----------



## why-am-i-bleeding

btbyrd said:


> I’m also available for TF beer can dura marathon testing.
> 
> View attachment 116902



Found the NC native


----------



## btbyrd

Asheville makes good beer and good synthesizers.


----------



## Corradobrit1

btbyrd said:


> good synthesizers.


Are you referring to CEM? I'm a peptide chemist and I'm very familiar with their microwave synthesizers


----------



## btbyrd

I'm referring to Moog Music and Make Noise.

When I think of CEM and synthesizers, my mind goes to the integrated circuits designed by Doug Curtis in the 1980's. A different kind of synthesizer, indeed!


----------



## Corradobrit1

WOWZERS. Who knew Wabi-Sabi could be so beautiful


----------



## tostadas

Corradobrit1 said:


> WOW. Who knew Wabi-Sabi could be so beautiful



omg that's ridiculous!


----------



## big_adventure

Corradobrit1 said:


> WOWZERS. Who knew Wabi-Sabi could be so beautiful




OMFG that's the most beautiful TF I've ever seen. I would forgive so, so, so very much wabi-sabi to sleep with... er... cut with that knife.

And it's "only" a Mab!


----------



## Corradobrit1

big_adventure said:


> OMFG that's the most beautiful TF I've ever seen. I would forgive so, so, so very much wabi-sabi to sleep with... er... cut with that knife.
> 
> And it's "only" a Mab!


I don't think its a Mab. The Ku on the blade suggest Denka. Nevertheless the cladding is identical. I never thought so much detail could be achieved with SS. I'm actually wondering if its an iron clad something.


----------



## big_adventure

Corradobrit1 said:


> I don't think its a Mab. The Ku on the blade suggest Denka. Nevertheless the cladding is identical. I never thought so much detail could be achieved with SS. I'm actually wondering if its an iron clad something.



That's true - the Ku does scream Denka. But I think that one of the comments on the IG post said Mab. That, or I'm dreaming.


----------



## Corradobrit1

big_adventure said:


> That's true - the Ku does scream Denka. But I think that one of the comments on the IG post said Mab. That, or I'm dreaming.


That was Hearsay.


----------



## tostadas

Corradobrit1 said:


> I don't think its a Mab. The Ku on the blade suggest Denka. Nevertheless the cladding is identical. I never thought so much detail could be achieved with SS. I'm actually wondering if its an iron clad something.


Looks like this was the knife. Cobalt damascus steel








Fujiwara Cobalt Special Damascus Gyuto 210mm


The Fujiwara Cobalt gyuto. The rustic look of Teruyasu Fujiwara's high-end Denka line combined with the simple care of a hard stainless steel, together in one knife. About the shape Inspired by the profile of a traditional European chef knife, Gyutos are a multi purpose knife with a slight meat...




knifewear.com


----------



## Corradobrit1

tostadas said:


> Looks like this was the knife. Cobalt damascus steel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fujiwara Cobalt Special Damascus Gyuto 210mm
> 
> 
> The Fujiwara Cobalt gyuto. The rustic look of Teruyasu Fujiwara's high-end Denka line combined with the simple care of a hard stainless steel, together in one knife. About the shape Inspired by the profile of a traditional European chef knife, Gyutos are a multi purpose knife with a slight meat...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> knifewear.com


Hit it on the head. Thats exactly what it is.


----------



## big_adventure

Corradobrit1 said:


> Hit it on the head. Thats exactly what it is.



Damn even the price is crazy low for CS steel, damas, TF action. Obviously sold out...


----------



## Bear

I like the profile on that one, not as flat.


----------



## Bigbbaillie

I just don't even understand how that is allowed, price, cladding detail, everything.


----------



## Boynutman

(twilight zone theme music)


----------



## big_adventure

Bigbbaillie said:


> I just don't even understand how that is allowed, price, cladding detail, everything.


It's just TF going full wabi-sabi. But like... Emotional wabi-sabi.


----------



## Corradobrit1

4th dimension Wabi-Sabi


----------



## lemeneid

Cobalt steel is just codename for VG10. Probably prelam Damascus VG10. Don’t think too much into it.


----------



## Corradobrit1

lemeneid said:


> Cobalt steel is just codename for VG10. Probably prelam Damascus VG10. Don’t think too much into it.


VG10? Way to kill the dream there......Feel like I've been hit with NKW's Ban


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Nah that stuff is special. You can tell because it’s called cobalt special steel, makes it at least vg11, maybe even vg15 Or vg16. I would make a joke about how I once got the flu and it was so bad it had to be at least H18N53 but that’s probably no good these days.


----------



## big_adventure

lemeneid said:


> Cobalt steel is just codename for VG10. Probably prelam Damascus VG10. Don’t think too much into it.



Are you certain about that? I'm pretty sure that Cobalt Special, which this is, is a PM steel, VG10 isn't. Yu Kurosaki uses Cobalt Special in the Raijin line, it's meant to be treated to 64 HRC - harder than R2/SG2 and much harder than typical treatments for VG10.


----------



## lemeneid

big_adventure said:


> Are you certain about that? I'm pretty sure that Cobalt Special, which this is, is a PM steel, VG10 isn't. Yu Kurosaki uses Cobalt Special in the Raijin line, it's meant to be treated to 64 HRC - harder than R2/SG2 and much harder than typical treatments for VG10.








Cobalt Special Steel


I'm interested to know how this steel performs. Superficially it is similar to VG10, with a bit more Cr, Mo and Co. It also has a bit of W: http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=VG-10%2CCobalt%20Special&ni=4001,6664&hrn=1&gm=0 Has anyone used it? How does it perform in terms of...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





it is for all intents and purposes similar to VG10.


----------



## Boynutman

Unlikely to make me feel like a sharpening god then.


----------



## big_adventure

lemeneid said:


> Cobalt Special Steel
> 
> 
> I'm interested to know how this steel performs. Superficially it is similar to VG10, with a bit more Cr, Mo and Co. It also has a bit of W: http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=VG-10%2CCobalt%20Special&ni=4001,6664&hrn=1&gm=0 Has anyone used it? How does it perform in terms of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is for all intents and purposes similar to VG10.



But the fact that it's a PM steel changes the properties a lot. Much smaller carbides, more evenly distributed in matrix, plus the notable addition of more cobalt and some tungsten. Cobalt and tungsten carbides are significantly harder - tungsten carbide is roughly as hard as vanadium carbide.

I only have one knife in CS and it doesn't get dull, but it's a 120mm petty so that's pretty normal.


----------



## lemeneid

big_adventure said:


> But the fact that it's a PM steel changes the properties a lot. Much smaller carbides, more evenly distributed in matrix, plus the notable addition of more cobalt and some tungsten. Cobalt and tungsten carbides are significantly harder - tungsten carbide is roughly as hard as vanadium carbide.
> 
> I only have one knife in CS and it doesn't get dull, but it's a 120mm petty so that's pretty normal.


Dude, nowhere is it mentioned that Cobalt Special is a powdered steel. In fact it is mentioned in Takefu’s website it is a high carbon stainless steel. Nothing more.

VG10 type steels typically never get dull, but they drop to 80% sharpness very quickly and stay there for a long time.


----------



## big_adventure

lemeneid said:


> Dude, nowhere is it mentioned that Cobalt Special is a powdered steel. In fact it is mentioned in Takefu’s website it is a high carbon stainless steel. Nothing more.
> 
> VG10 type steels typically never get dull, but they drop to 80% sharpness very quickly and stay there for a long time.



Fair point - I don't know why I thought it was a PM steel. 

Based on it's composition, I'd figure that it will hold an edge better than VG10, while being a bit less tough. Like I said, I only have the one blade in that steel, and it's a petty.


----------



## ian

Cobalt Special Steel


I'm interested to know how this steel performs. Superficially it is similar to VG10, with a bit more Cr, Mo and Co. It also has a bit of W: http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=VG-10%2CCobalt%20Special&ni=4001,6664&hrn=1&gm=0 Has anyone used it? How does it perform in terms of...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## riba

Must say I really dig the damascus-ku combi. Works for me. I don't see vg10 as any problem (home user here). Also have a Wat yellow I like. Steel, potato, potahto. Then again, you might be getting TFs for a different reason


----------



## riba

(says the guy who was pretty stoked about getting 145sc in a nice folder)


----------



## preizzo




----------



## DitmasPork

Knives with an innate wabi-sabi. All good cutters with distinctive characteristics—Jiro, Jonas, TF, Bryan, Bjorn.


----------



## ModRQC

DitmasPork said:


> Knives with an innate wabi-sabi. All good cutters with distinctive characteristics—Jiro, Jonas, TF, Bryan, Bjorn.
> View attachment 129385



Brilliant!


----------



## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> Knives with an innate wabi-sabi. All good cutters with distinctive characteristics—Jiro, Jonas, TF, Bryan, Bjorn.
> View attachment 129385


Please rank on the wabi-sabi to cuttiness scale.


----------



## captaincaed

Brian Weekley said:


> I vote that we morph this thread into a “what’s more over-priced than a TF“ thread.
> 
> I’ll go first ....
> 
> Three Wives .... match that TF ... you’re bush league compared to any one of them.., and
> 
> Anything that floats ... without my boat I wouldn’t have to have any stainless knives at all ...,
> 
> Not To forget contributions from previous posts ....
> 
> Leica cameras ... and with a Leica you don’t have to strop it after every third session ..., and
> 
> Any guitar ... I think it would have to be an “extra special” guitar actually.
> 
> 
> .... Your turn


"It it flies, f***s or floats, it's cheaper to rent"
- old tymey family quote


----------



## DitmasPork

Brian Weekley said:


> I vote that we morph this thread into a “what’s more over-priced than a TF“ thread.
> 
> I’ll go first ....
> 
> Three Wives .... match that TF ... you’re bush league compared to any one of them.., and
> 
> Anything that floats ... without my boat I wouldn’t have to have any stainless knives at all ...,
> 
> Not To forget contributions from previous posts ....
> 
> Leica cameras ... and with a Leica you don’t have to strop it after every third session ..., and
> 
> Any guitar ... I think it would have to be an “extra special” guitar actually.
> 
> 
> .... Your turn



Respectfully disagree. Leicas aren’t overpriced, it’s just that many can’t afford to acquire them—they cost what they cost. Definitely not a bang-for-buck camera, but their great cameras—the feel and photo quality better than any 35mm I’ve used.


----------



## MontezumaBoy

I prefer a different Leica that we use ... helps to be precise ... sorry for the segue ... beautiful camera though ...


----------



## DitmasPork

MontezumaBoy said:


> I prefer a different Leica that we use ... helps to be precise ... sorry for the segue ... beautiful camera though ...View attachment 129387
> 
> 
> View attachment 129387


What is that?


----------



## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> What is that?


Looks like a scanner for digitizing 3D objects. Sorry but I see no wabi-sabi in these products. 
Back on message. A collection of wabi-sabi goodness.


----------



## DitmasPork

Corradobrit1 said:


> Looks like a scanner for digitizing 3D objects. Sorry but I see no wabi-sabi in these products.
> Back on message. A collection of wabi-sabi goodness.


3-d scanner, cool! Can print a denka. Awesome set you get there! What’s the gyuto at top?


----------



## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> 3-d scanner, cool! Can print a denka. Awesome set you get there! What’s the gyuto at top?


My first ever JKnife purchase. 210 Nashiji with a custom ironwood handle


----------



## Rangen

Corradobrit1 said:


> My first ever JKnife purchase. 210 Nashiji with a custom ironwood handle



A TF was your _first_ JKnife purchase? Wow. My first JKnife purchases were utterly useless. It was decades ago, and they came from woodworking sources. If you love your blue steel Ouichi (sp?) chisels, and your white/blue steel plane blades, why not try a blue steel JKnife from the same source? It was a Nakiri, hardened to brittleness, nearly impossible to sharpen, and shaped wrong somehow, just wasn't good to use. It, and the others I bought then, soured me on Japanese knives for a long time. Finally tried a good one (thanks KKF!) and then it got spendy and wonderful.


----------



## ModRQC

Some TFness goes a long way into shaping a knife journey, whatever it stands to be... I mean, owning a somewhat bad to irrecuperable (or both and/or any in between) knife, of course. I love TF but still maintain one can lead a full and fruitful life without owning one. Or do I...?


----------



## ModRQC

ModRQC said:


> Some TFness goes a long way into shaping a knife journey, whatever it stands to be... I mean, owning a somewhat bad to irrecuperable (or both and/or any in between) knife, of course. I love TF but still maintain one can lead a full and fruitful life without owning one. Or do I...?


----------



## Rangen

I really want a large, framed version of that "TF glaring at you personally because you are probably not worthy of the knife in this box" picture to mount on the wall over my sharpening table.


----------



## BillHanna

I want it on a T-shirt.


----------



## lemeneid

ModRQC said:


> View attachment 129400


Collect five portraits, get free happy time!


----------



## ragz

I put my TF stickers all over my house


----------



## Garm

Corradobrit1 said:


> Looks like a scanner for digitizing 3D objects. Sorry but I see no wabi-sabi in these products.
> Back on message. A collection of wabi-sabi goodness.


What length is the bottom one of the two Denka gyutos?
Love the profile on that one(the top one looks very good also). So many of the newer TF's I see pictured have this very upswept belly/tip profile I don't care for.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Garm said:


> What length is the bottom one of the two Denka gyutos?
> Love the profile on that one(the top one looks very good also). So many of the newer TF's I see pictured have this very upswept belly/tip profile I don't care for.


Its 197mm edge length.


----------



## RockyBasel

DitmasPork said:


> Respectfully disagree. Leicas aren’t overpriced, it’s just that many can’t afford to acquire them—they cost what they cost. Definitely not a bang-for-buck camera, but their great cameras—the feel and photo quality better than any 35mm I’ve used.
> View attachment 129386



something about this picture with TF, red pakka handle and Leica….it’s just simply awesome!!!


----------



## Garm

Corradobrit1 said:


> Its 197mm edge length.


Looks like a sweet blade!


----------



## DitmasPork

RockyBasel said:


> something about this picture with TF, red pakka handle and Leica….it’s just simply awesome!!!



Cheers! Both are obviously well know within their respective spheres of enthusiasts. Although the Leica certainly has a longer, more celebrated history—it's easy to compile a list of legendary photographers who used Leicas, but difficult (at least for me) to find even a small list of legendary chefs who use TF knives. When I bought my Leica, circa 1999, the photojournalists who recommended me buying a Leica rangefinder—I'm from a media background—didn't refer to Leica as "a camera," but all considered is as "the camera." Iconic for its history, revered for its quality—to me, no other camera feels like a Leica, or takes better 35mm photographs. 

My TF denka is a very good knife. However, it's still somewhat controversial here—threads are rife with opposing arguments from both fans professing TF's glories and naysayers citing prices and wonkiness. To each their own.

I love both of these tools.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Garm said:


> Looks like a sweet blade!


Its my goto knife in the home kitchen. Thicker spine than the 210 Yo gyuto giving it a more WH feel, but still thin behind the edge. The 48mm height gives it a nice nimbleness on the board.


----------



## big_adventure

RockyBasel said:


> something about this picture with TF, red pakka handle and Leica….it’s just simply awesome!!!



Funny enough reading this - TF is the Wabi-Sabi God, and Leica is pretty much the antithesis of Wabi-Sabi.


----------



## DitmasPork

big_adventure said:


> Funny enough reading this - TF is the Wabi-Sabi God, and Leica is pretty much the antithesis of Wabi-Sabi.



Yeah. However, knife nerds and camera nerds are very similar. Camera nerds can talk for hours on end about lenses regarding vintage glass quality vs modern glass, etc. Collecting gyutos generally cheaper than collecting cameras.


----------



## Runner_up

I dig the Wabi Sabi.

I actually really want to pick up a dammy cobolt TF. I should send Gaku a note..


----------



## Corradobrit1

Runner_up said:


> I actually really want to pick up a dammy cobolt TF. I should send Gaku a note..


Don't bother he says they're naff. VG10

Nice collection. Love the Ku color wabi-sabi on the Denka's


----------



## Justablacktee

Nice ! The last three looks well polished (thinned?) 

Love the WA handle one with his small matchi and the overall balance !

What are the high and length on this one ?


----------



## btbyrd

Gorgeous.


----------



## preizzo

Runner_up said:


> I dig the Wabi Sabi.
> 
> I actually really want to pick up a dammy cobolt TF. I should send Gaku a note..


Is it the wa the one with the Matteo name ??


----------



## Runner_up

preizzo said:


> Is it the wa the one with the Matteo name ??




Ha no, purchased direct


----------



## big_adventure

DitmasPork said:


> Yeah. However, knife nerds and camera nerds are very similar. Camera nerds can talk for hours on end about lenses regarding vintage glass quality vs modern glass, etc.



Oh I am aware. I dallied with cameras for a while. Ironically, when I got to a level where my gear was pretty great, I stopped using it. Carrying around a DX format with a 35mm lens was one thing, once I "graduated" to FX and a selection of pro lenses, it became too much of a pain to carry it around. 



DitmasPork said:


> Collecting gyutos generally cheaper than collecting cameras.



I guess, but isn't it generally "spend as much as you can" in either case?


----------



## DitmasPork

big_adventure said:


> Oh I am aware. I dallied with cameras for a while. Ironically, when I got to a level where my gear was pretty great, I stopped using it. Carrying around a DX format with a 35mm lens was one thing, once I "graduated" to FX and a selection of pro lenses, it became too much of a pain to carry it around.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess, but isn't it generally "spend as much as you can" in either case?



For years I used to go to the Photo Expo at the Javitz Center in NYC—an odd site to see some attendees walking around, decked out in a photo vest; three cameras around the neck; bag filled with lenses and other photo paraphernalia—being prepared I guess.

As for your second comment—you're right. Camera collectors range from dime store finds to high-end vintage, etc. With knife collecting, a friend told me that kitchen knives are cheap—compared to custom folding knives.


----------



## BillHanna

DitmasPork said:


> With knife collecting, a friend told me that kitchen knives are cheap—compared to custom folding knives.


 Ugh. I’ve recently learned this. “Hey. I’ll just get a FOLDER from [x]. It should be a cheaper way to get some of their work!”

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## Corradobrit1

BillHanna said:


> Ugh. I’ve recently learned this. “Hey. I’ll just get a FOLDER from [x]. It should be a cheaper way to get some of their work!”
> 
> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


Yeah, I saw a bunch of Shirogorov's on FleaBay for $30k+.


----------



## DitmasPork

BillHanna said:


> Ugh. I’ve recently learned this. “Hey. I’ll just get a FOLDER from [x]. It should be a cheaper way to get some of their work!”
> 
> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha



I wonder if Anthony Bourdain had any of Bob Kramer's folding knives—that will be up for a future auction? Latest Creations - Kramer Knives


----------



## Etsoh

The thickest in my roll, my one and only Wabi Sabi.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Etsoh said:


> The thickest in my roll, my one and only Wabi Sabi. View attachment 129728
> View attachment 129729


Thats a finger notch Shrek could use. Nice wabi-sabi


----------



## Sdo

Hot dog: Pekingese named Wasabi wins best in show at Westminster Dog Show


Champion follows in his grandfather Malachy’s paw prints and gains fifth-ever win for Pekingese




www.theguardian.com


----------



## kevin

Wabisabi


----------



## Pie

kevin said:


> View attachment 131985
> View attachment 131986
> 
> 
> Wabisabi


Whoa do I see banding in that cladding? KU looks kinda different too, reminds me of maz nashiji KU


----------



## Perverockstar

This thread is a little bit old but I'll jump in...

I got a Shiro-Knumitsu with a very raw "Wabi-Sabi" Kurouchi finish. The bevels seem very well done to me and the knive performs really good, while I also like the look.


But each person should use whatever they prefer, of course. Taste is not a choice...


----------



## Corradobrit1

Perverockstar said:


> This thread is a little bit old but I'll jump in...
> 
> I got a Shiro-Knumitsu with a very raw "Wabi-Sabi" Kurouchi finish. The bevels seem very well done to me and the knive performs really good, while I also like the look.
> 
> 
> But each person should use whatever they prefer, of course. Taste is not a choice...


A worthy addition to the definitive TF wabi sabi thread. Ooohh that choil.


----------



## btbyrd

It's not a TF tho...


----------



## Corradobrit1

btbyrd said:


> It's not a TF tho...


I didn't want to be rude to the noob and point this out. But afterall wabi sabi is wabi sabi.


----------



## Perverockstar

I know it is not a Teruyasu, just wanted to mention my appreciation to the finish and that a knife can still perform great without a clean F&F.

I'm a sucker for rustic looks and things as much as I am for fancy, pretty and "perfect", BTW. Beauty can be found in so many places and things.


----------



## JASinIL2006

But TF wabi sabi is extra special (says I, still lusting after my yet-to-be-purchased Denka…)


----------



## Carl Kotte

Perverockstar said:


> I know it is not a Teruyasu, just wanted to mention my appreciation to the finish and that a knife can still perform great without a clean F&F.
> 
> I'm a sucker for rustic looks and things as much as I am for fancy, pretty and "perfect", BTW. Beauty can be found in so many places and things.


Like Farsta centrum.


----------



## Perverockstar

Carl Kotte said:


> Like Farsta centrum.


Lol


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## tag98

BillHanna said:


> I want it on a T-shirt.


I would 100 purchase this!


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## ragz

My daily driver for 6 years now. Freshly thinned. Still haven't gotten the overgrind at the back out of it yet . Good thumb mark though, and much wabi sabi.


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