# What makes a honyaki a honyaki?



## Dan P.

As opposed to a mono steel?

Presence of a hamon?

little or no of tempering??

I see Western makers labelling their work "honyaki" (which is absolutely fine) but I'm curious what that actually means above and beyond being mono steel with a hamon, which seems all Japanese honyakis have.

Do all honyakis have a hamon?

Just curious.


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## inzite

i would think differentially hardened (via water or oil) would warrant the word honyaki traditionally.


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## Nemo

I think it literally means "true forged" or similar.

My understanding is it is generally accepted that honyakii are defined by differential hardening.

Apparently causes a high failure rate (often described as a ping if it occurs during a quench, but may not become apparent until much later).

Some steels (simple steels like W2, shiroko) show a good hamon, others (more alloyed steels like aogami) not as much.

Honyakii are apparently tempered.

Some knives appear to be called "honyaki" when they clearly are not differentially hardened (e.g. Suisin IH) and IMO this is probably marketing, suggesting a high quality blade. I'm not aware of any stainless honyakii.


Hope this helps. If someome knows more (or knows that I'm wrong ) please chime in.


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## tsuriru

Nemo said:


> I think it literally means "true forged" or similar.
> 
> My understanding is it is generally accepted that honyakii are defined by differential hardening.
> 
> Apparently causes a high failure rate (often described as a ping if it occurs during a quench, but may not become apparent until much later).
> 
> Some steels (simple steels like W2, shiroko) show a good hamon, others (more alloyed steels like aogami) not as much.
> 
> Honyakii are apparently tempered.
> 
> Some knives appear to be called "honyaki" when they clearly are not differentially hardened (e.g. Suisin IH) and IMO this is probably marketing, suggesting a high quality blade. I'm not aware of any stainless honyakii.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps. If someome knows more (or knows that I'm wrong ) please chime in.



:goodpost:


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## toddnmd

inzite said:


> i would think differentially hardened (via water or oil) would warrant the word honyaki traditionally.



+1


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

The term "glost fired" is sometimes found in japanese-english translations... though it sounds more like a ceramics man term, it certainly sounds hip


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## qjlforever

honyaki is only 1 steel for blade no others iron


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## panda

doesnt it just mean differentially hardened single piece of metal? unless there is a whole set of rules to be considered honyaki?


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## Chef_

what does differentially hardened mean?


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## RDalman

I've had it explained like "true hardening" by a japanese.


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## Nemo

Chef_ said:


> what does differentially hardened mean?



The steel near the edge is hardened more than the steel near the spine. It's often accomplished by insulating the steel near the spine with clay before the quench (this steel will quench slower so will have less martensite and probably more bainite or even pearlite).


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## Chef Doom

The main difference between a honyaki and monosteel is a $1000 price tag and the potential weeping when the blade is dropped on a hard floor.


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## labor of love

Chef Doom said:


> The main difference between a honyaki and monosteel is a $1000 price tag and the potential weeping when the blade is dropped on a hard floor.



Pretty much. As awesome as a good honyaki can be, I have a hard time walking into work and pulling one outta my roll to work with on the line.


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## natto

To me honyaki is a technique to provide thin edges that can take a good polish. Quenched hard from lower temperatures to achieve fine grain. Tempered at low temperatures. Toughness is sacrificed for a special purpose edge.


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## LucasFur

If the maker tells you "its a honyaki" ... then its a honyaki. 
If "Honyaki" is in the wording when you buy, even if its only stated when sold second hand, then its a honyaki. 

Is it possible for a blade to be San-mai construction and deferentially heat treated? Would it be a honyaki? 
How about deferentially heat treated Stainless?


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## StonedEdge

San mai isn't monosteel so no


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## TimoNieminen

LucasFur said:


> Is it possible for a blade to be San-mai construction and deferentially heat treated?



Not only is it possible, but sanmai is a traditional way of achieved differential hardening - with a steel core and iron cladding, the core hardens when quenched, and the cladding stays soft. Similarly, inserted-edge lamination.


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## Matus

Didnt we have a lengthy discussion on recently? I could dig out the link but I remember clearly that no consensus was found on what is and what is not a honyaki.


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## labor of love

Matus said:


> Didnt we have a lengthy discussion on recently? I could dig out the link but I remember clearly that no consensus was found on what is and what is not a honyaki.



True, but the OP seems be directing this thread towards non jmakers that label some knives they make as honyaki. It would be nice as a customer to know what to expect whenever a maker uses the terminology(however I directly ask the question myself to the maker during the ordering process as meaning may vary). Im kinda interested to here some responses. I suppose differential hardening mono with optional hamon is the closest we will get to a universal definition.


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## Matus

labor of love - point well taken.

My personal opinion - if somebody markets his knives as honyaki, than I expect a monosteel knife with a visible hardening line and would want to know how the blade was quenched. I would also expect that the pattern was brought out by some sort of manual sanding/abrading and not by etching - though I would not be drawing a hard line with this particular point.


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## jklip13

A few months back there was a discussion on this topic. My observation is that there is absolutely no rules when it comes to naming knives, you can call anything Honyaki if you like. It just means authentically "heated". I usually expect to see a Hamon on something called Honyaki but sometimes it's just a monosteel knife or even a clad knife. No rules, no governing body controlling the term, anyone can use it so long as they have heated the knife in a way that they feel is "authentic".


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## milkbaby

Inox Honyaki FTW!!!!!!!!!!!! :stinker:


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## tripleq

milkbaby said:


> Inox Honyaki FTW!!!!!!!!!!!! :stinker:



:rofl2:


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## tsuriru

A true, real honyaki is made on a full moon by a Japanese blade smith, The whole process is overseen by no less than five priests robed in brilliant white. Some prayers are offered to the appropriate deities as the blade takes shape. Also, some magical fairy dust is sprinkled onto the flames right before the quench. The quench itself is done in 200 year old brine, also mixed with fairy dust for a better accented hamon line.


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## StonedEdge

True I always thought they used angel dust


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## tripleq

tsuriru said:


> A true, real honyaki is made on a full moon by a Japanese blade smith, The whole process is overseen by no less than five priests robed in brilliant white. Some prayers are offered to the appropriate deities as the blade takes shape. Also, some magical fairy dust is sprinkled onto the flames right before the quench. The quench itself is done in 200 year old brine, also mixed with fairy dust for a better accented hamon line.



That magic does help prevent accidental damage though :biggrin:.


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## HRC_64

tripleq said:


> That magic does help prevent accidental damage though :biggrin:.



ouch


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## K813zra

tsuriru said:


> A true, real honyaki is made on a full moon by a Japanese blade smith, The whole process is overseen by no less than five priests robed in brilliant white. Some prayers are offered to the appropriate deities as the blade takes shape. Also, some magical fairy dust is sprinkled onto the flames right before the quench. The quench itself is done in 200 year old brine, also mixed with fairy dust for a better accented hamon line.



I figured it would be the tears of a tanuki...damn raccoon dogs everywhere.


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## panda

honyaki to me means made by a japanese master, no exceptions

everything else is differentially hardened interpretation..


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## chefcomesback

tsuriru said:


> A true, real honyaki is made on a full moon by a Japanese blade smith, The whole process is overseen by no less than five priests robed in brilliant white. Some prayers are offered to the appropriate deities as the blade takes shape. Also, some magical fairy dust is sprinkled onto the flames right before the quench. The quench itself is done in 200 year old brine, also mixed with fairy dust for a better accented hamon line.



[emoji23]


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## K813zra

panda said:


> honyaki to me means made by a japanese master, no exceptions
> 
> everything else is differentially hardened interpretation..



I do get the sentiment behind that. Not sure it would matter to me one way or the other in use but I do understand how you feel.


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## supersayan3

Chef Doom said:


> The main difference between a honyaki and monosteel is a $1000 price tag and the potential weeping when the blade is dropped on a hard floor.



You justify your name: Chef Doom


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## supersayan3

labor of love said:


> Pretty much. As awesome as a good honyaki can be, I have a hard time walking into work and pulling one outta my roll to work with on the line.



Yep, honyaki is too good to be true.
Uber for any kitchen ;-)


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## Chef Doom

panda said:


> honyaki to me means made by a japanese master, no exceptions
> 
> everything else is differentially hardened interpretation..


I could not agree more with this statement. The very nature of a honyaki is that the process is a pain with a high rate of failure.


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## zitangy

panda said:


> honyaki to me means made by a japanese master, no exceptions
> 
> everything else is differentially hardened interpretation..



What if the old established maker uses modern measuring instruments to measure and control the internal core steel temperature, water temperature and density of water and contents of the water, measures the contents of the clay used and control the thickness of it ... to have better and granular control in the quenching process and tame the thermal shock ...does it still qualify in yr definition??

rgds Z


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## Matus

Chef Doom said:


> I could not agree more with this statement. The very nature of a honyaki is that the process is a pain with a high rate of failure.



Well, I am not sure. My knifemaking process is a pain too and my failure rate pretty high, but I still do not call my Niolox creations honyaki [emoji16] [emoji56]


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

I guess if you can manage to make a diff tempered SB1 work, no one would argue with you calling it honyaki.


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## Chicagohawkie

panda said:


> honyaki to me means made by a japanese master, no exceptions
> 
> everything else is differentially hardened interpretation..



Word! Respect the code.


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