# The Gyuto Plunge



## eighteesix (Dec 5, 2013)

Hello. First post--more info below questionnaire. Thank you!

LOCATION
What country are you in? 
USA

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chef/Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Not sure, leaning Japanese 'D'

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
~240mm 10"

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
~$200



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, filleting fish, trimming meats, anything but bone tasks.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
N/A

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Improving my Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Depends how dull the knife is. I try to use primarily slice and push cut. Drawing if the knife is dull, sometimes rocking if mincing. Trying to avoid.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics -- seamless from blade to handle, open to finishes and handles 

Comfort -- improved balance and light to medium weight, better handle, decent pinch area for thumb comfort 

Ease of Use -- preferably ability to use the knife right out of the box, decent food release, low-medium maintenance.

Edge Retention -- at least several months without sharpening.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? 
Yes, bamboo

Do you sharpen your own knives? 
Sharpening steel only, for now.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? 
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? 
Yes, in time.


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I've been looking closely at a number of Gyutos:
Tojiro DP 240mm (VG10)
Shun Classic 10" (VG10)
Hiromoto Gyuto 240mm (comes in both stainless and carbon -- Gingami No.3 and Aogami Super respectively)

I'm under the impression the first two are all stainless and the third is carbon core with stainless clad. All within my price range, fairly light weight.

I used a Wusthof 10" Classic Chef and it was very heavy (9.8oz). The 10" Shun classic was preferable in weight (8.4oz?). 

Would prefer stainless steel OR carbon steel with stainless clad covering portion/most of blade for stain/patina resistance/control (ie Hiromoto Aogami Super Gyuto 240mm).

Looking for alternative recommendations or advice on my choices. This is my first blade that I intend to care for.


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## ChuckTheButcher (Dec 5, 2013)

I personally would recommend the hiromoto AS. They are in my opinion the best knives for people getting into jknives. It's a lot of bang for your buck and the stainless cladding makes caring for them easier. Plus if so inclined in the future you can get them spruced up.


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## eighteesix (Dec 5, 2013)

ChuckTheButcher said:


> Plus if so inclined in the future you can get them spruced up.


What do you mean by spruced up? Example?

Where would I find the AS for purchase?

Also, I don't see that Hiromoto makes any petty sized knives. Any recommendation there?


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## seattle_lee (Dec 5, 2013)

I just took my 210mm Hiro AS gyuto into the shop and had the spine and choil rounded. I love using that knife now. Other options for sprucing it up include thinning the blade behind the edge, but leaving the spine intact. 

The Hiro AS is indeed low maintenance for a carbon edge -- its cladding is stainless, and the cutting edge takes patina so nicely and seems pretty unreactive in general.


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## ChuckTheButcher (Dec 5, 2013)

There are people, most notably Dave Martell from japaneseknifesharpening, who do things like acid etch, re-handle, thin, round the spine, ect. You can get them at japanesechefsknife.com and a few other places. The AS is the same as the carbon sereies. AS is for aogami super. One thing I will say, even if you don't go for the hiromoto, don't get a shun. This is just my opinion but there are way better knives for cheaper. I think the majority of other forum members would agree.


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## eighteesix (Dec 5, 2013)

I did enjoy the Shun handle so I was considering it for my petty blade. Alternative suggestions there?

I may re-handle the hiromoto in favor of a D shaped butt.


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## ChuckTheButcher (Dec 5, 2013)

I didn't noticed that you wanted a japanese style handle. It isn't so easy to rehandle a western knife to a wa handle. There are countless of quality knives with the Japanese style handles I would recommend over shun and at a better price. Check out japaneseknifeimports.com, japanesechefsknife.com, epicedge.com, korin.com. There are many clad and stainless knives. I personally prefer clad carbon. There are also several people on this forum who will rehandle japanese knives as well. Some of the ho wood handles that come with the knives aren't the prettiest. Just remember it's over $100 for new handle and to get it installed.


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## eighteesix (Dec 5, 2013)

I've never used a Hiromoto gyuto so I may not re handle it. I just preferred the shun handle to the wusthof handle. I've been using western style handles for 10 years though. I don't see a handle making or breaking my decision on the hiromoto, but if I do decide to examine other makers based on handle I'm not sure what brands to look at. I will look through some other clad carbon options.


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## Benuser (Dec 5, 2013)

Both the G3 and especially the AS by Hiromoto are exceptional performers in their price category. If you are particulary attentive to Fit&Finish you might have a look at the Misonos. With the Hiromotos you get the better steel for less money though. That's why people put expensive handles on them, because the blade is worth of it. 
All with JCK, japanesechefsknife.com


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## eighteesix (Dec 5, 2013)

after revisiting JCK i noticed hiromoto does in fact have petty knives. does it makes sense to also get a petty knife in carbon (the matching one)? or stainless? different brand?

i see some of these are well recommended:
Kansui Dojo 
Hattori FH Item# FH-3 
Misono UX10Ryusen Blazen 
Masamoto VG 
Tojiro DP


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## ChuckTheButcher (Dec 6, 2013)

I'd stay clear from the kansui dojo and tojiro dp. Hattori and Masamoto vg are both good knives. I am not the biggest fan of vg-10 stainless but that is just a personal preference. It is a good steel especially for the home cook. I've never used the Ryusen Blazen but powdered stainless steels are are very good if done right. I don't like the misono ux10 at all but a lot of people do. I still think the hiromoto is better than all of them and a better price.


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## ThEoRy (Dec 6, 2013)

eighteesix said:


> What do you mean by spruced up? Example?
> 
> Where would I find the AS for purchase?
> 
> Also, I don't see that Hiromoto makes any petty sized knives. Any recommendation there?



[video=youtube;3loKz9cTyto]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3loKz9cTyto[/video]


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## franzb69 (Dec 6, 2013)

hattori's VG10 is hands down the best heat treat of VG10 anywhere. which says a lot about their knife line (HD). really good stuff. so if there's anything to say about Ryusen's Blazen which are also the same people that does the heat treating for hattori's vg10 line, their powdered stainless should be pretty darn good as well.

=D


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## ChuckTheButcher (Dec 6, 2013)

That's good to know. I didn't realize ryusen uses the same people.


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## NO ChoP! (Dec 6, 2013)

Dojo used to be a better value. Its easier to except imperfections at $40 than the current $70. It's still stainless clad AS steel, though...


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## Benuser (Dec 6, 2013)

eighteesix said:


> after revisiting JCK i noticed hiromoto does in fact have petty knives. does it makes sense to also get a petty knife in carbon (the matching one)? or stainless? different brand?
> 
> i see some of these are well recommended:
> Kansui Dojo
> ...



It makes sense to have a stainless petty if your gyuto is a carbon. From time to time you will have to deal will acidic fruit and other stuff you don't want to dull your carbon edge.
As a petty will always get some abuse, and has only a small contact area with the board, it will get sharpened quite often and wear out relatively fast. I wouldn't pay more than some $80 for a basic one. I use myself mainly a G3, boring but effective.


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## eighteesix (Dec 6, 2013)

Benuser said:


> It makes sense to have a stainless petty if your gyuto is a carbon. From time to time you will have to deal will acidic fruit and other stuff you don't want to dull your carbon edge.
> As a petty will always get some abuse, and has only a small contact area with the board, it will get sharpened quite often and wear out relatively fast. I wouldn't pay more than some $80 for a basic one. I use myself mainly a G3, boring but effective.


I assumed as much. Definitely effective. 

However, this brings up another issue. I originally had counted out a carbon knife not because of upkeep/maintenance but because I wanted one knife to do almost everything with. I understand there's acidic fruit that should be avoided (and other things), but is there a specific list items that are too acidic or things I should avoid with a carbon knife?


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## Benuser (Dec 6, 2013)

Depends somewhat on the carbon. Aogami Super e.g. is poorly reactive -- contains some chromium. 
If you've tons of sweet peppers to cut and you do have a stainless I would suggest to take the stainless. The combination of a hard skin and highly acidic content will dull your carbon blade somewhat -- your stainless as well, by the way, but at a lesser degree.
In general though if you wipe the edge in time, yes, in time, there's no problem. Just as one should do with a stainless as well...


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## ChuckTheButcher (Dec 6, 2013)

That does make since with a petty. I will say that with the clad knives a patina often looks nice. On straight up carbon blades not so much. It gives a contrast to the jigne and hagne. That's not saying you want to let them rust or corrode. It not that hard to wipe a knife off and you can always rub it with a cleaner like fitz for 30 secs.


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## eighteesix (Dec 6, 2013)

hmm that's a bit concerning. I eat a lot of peppers and tomatoes. I do not have a quality stainless as backup--the one I do have has been a workhorse for 7 years and has seen it's last days.


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## toddnmd (Dec 6, 2013)

I don't think the issues for a home cook are the same as for a pro chef. If someone were slicing large quantities of acidic foods, that would be extended exposure of the edge to the acidic food. For smaller quantities, I don't think it's as big a deal. My $.02.


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## Benuser (Dec 6, 2013)

+1
I wonder whether the OP will be cutting peppers for an hour or so.


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## bahamaroot (Dec 6, 2013)

For home use I don't worry about acidic foods. Just rinse the knife when your done.


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## eighteesix (Dec 6, 2013)

Benuser said:


> +1
> I wonder whether the OP will be cutting peppers for an hour or so.


60m? ha more like 60s.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 6, 2013)

I used AS steel in Hiromoto alot at work as well as other carbons.As Gardemanger huge amount of acidic fruits like,pineapple,grapefruit,oranges,lemons,& large quantities of tomato's.With some jobs would keep a folded damp cloth at edge of board.

I used quality carbon & the edges held up very well.Much better than most stainless.The Hiromoto AS petty is a great workhorse small blade.Get them both & a whetstone to sharpen,you can put a killer edge on the AS steel & have better edge retention.It is a good bang for the buck for quality steel.


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## eighteesix (Dec 6, 2013)

OK great thanks for that. 

gladly take any other opinions on petty blade.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Dec 6, 2013)

eighteesix said:


> OK great thanks for that.
> 
> gladly take any other opinions on petty blade.



Well, JCK offers Fujiwara FKM which is great value for the money. Stainless and pretty cheap. I like mine. 
Carbonext is another good option from JCK. A bit more expensive, but can take a better edge.

At home I'm using sharpening steel maybe once in a week or so not because knives are dull, but more because I'm bored and wanted to sharpen something


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## eighteesix (Dec 6, 2013)

wondering-- do people use sharpening steel after each use on petty knives?

as far as sharpening, if I don't plan on sharpening my own blades immediately would it be a bad idea to bring the AS gyuto to a professional sharpener?


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 6, 2013)

All steels are not the same,coarse & diamond steels can screw up an edge over time,I like polishing steels or smooth ceramics,these are quite capable of realining your edge extending your prep time between the stone sharpenings.

The forschner combo-cut steel(fine-smooth) 12" will work well if used properly.Around 30.00.When using a steel angle is important,the same as or a hair over your final bevel on the stone.Light measured strokes,not pressing hard on the steel.

Learning to freehand on a stone will free you up from depending on other's to sharpen for you.Some sharpeners use belts,it is much better to learn sharpening yourself.It is not that hard just good technique & some motor skills.


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## eighteesix (Dec 6, 2013)

and what about steeling a petty knife?


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Dec 6, 2013)

eighteesix said:


> and what about steeling a petty knife?


all the same. When you don't like the sharpness of knife, try to steel it. If it's enough  fine. If not  you'd need some more serious sharpening


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## Benuser (Dec 6, 2013)

I would say, with all due respect, instead of steeling, strop very lightly on your finest stone or the one before it. Steeling will damage the edge and produce fatigued steel that has to be removed at the next sharpening, and may form a wire edge in between.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 7, 2013)

That's why I only reccom.non invasive steels like smooth polishing.Also incorrect steel use is a major factor for crappy edges in production kitchens.Even in Hawaii though it is more a European tradition.Many cooks use steels.

Alot of Eastern cultures do not use steels at all & probably have sharper knives than the average western cook.


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## eighteesix (Dec 7, 2013)

Benuser said:


> I would say, with all due respect, instead of steeling, strop very lightly on your finest stone or the one before it. Steeling will damage the edge and produce fatigued steel that has to be removed at the next sharpening, and may form a wire edge in between.


i dont own any stones at the moment.


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## CB1968 (Dec 7, 2013)

Maybe you should grab a stone or two, they are really helpful if you want a sharp edge, there are many vendors on this forum offering different stones etc and they are all off excellent quality 
And it's really fun to put a great edge on a knife I find it quite relaxing?


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## eighteesix (Dec 7, 2013)

I think I could definitely find sharpening relaxing. but now this opens a new question. for the hiromoto AS gyuto, what a time should I get? and will the stone also work with a stainless edge?


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## Benuser (Dec 7, 2013)

You'll need a medium coarse (J800-1200) and a medium fine (3-5k) stone as soon as you have the knife. A factory edge is some service to the Western customers. I've been told in Japan blades are sold unsharpened as the customer or reseller is expected to deal with that. 
The factory edge is weak, won't last and should be replaced as soon as possible by a decent edge made on stones.
Current waterstones are suited for use with both AS and stainless.


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## eighteesix (Dec 7, 2013)

being that I have zero experience sharpening blades with stones I'm not convinced it's a good idea that my first time sharpening a blade be with my brand new gyuto. not sure how to resolve that issue.


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## seattle_lee (Dec 7, 2013)

eighteesix said:


> being that I have zero experience sharpening blades with stones I'm not convinced it's a good idea that my first time sharpening a blade be with my brand new gyuto. not sure how to resolve that issue.



Practice sharpening with the knife you are replacing. It'll wear differently than your new gyuto because of softer steel, but will still be better than no practice at all. Just be aware of the different wearing speed, and the different blade angle.


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## Benuser (Dec 7, 2013)

Get a simple carbon blade for learning the basics. In Europe I would suggest an Opinel or a simple Robert Herder.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Dec 7, 2013)

You can practice sharpening on any knives


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## Benuser (Dec 7, 2013)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> You can practice sharpening on any knives


Not so sure it makes sense to learn on crappy steel that barely takes an edge, or stainless involving a lot of deburring problems. That's why I suggested to start with a basic carbon.


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## eighteesix (Dec 7, 2013)

Benuser said:


> Get a simple carbon blade for learning the basics. In Europe I would suggest an Opinel or a simple Robert Herder.


So you're suggesting avoiding the Hiromoto for now? I'm in US.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 7, 2013)

It's been recommended in another reply, but pick up a CarboNext from JCK. It is more than adequately sharp out of the box and is easy to sharpen, almost as easy as white steel.

Rick


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## eighteesix (Dec 7, 2013)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> It's been recommended in another reply, but pick up a CarboNext from JCK. It is more than adequately sharp out of the box and is easy to sharpen, almost as easy as white steel.
> 
> Rick


The price is so similar between that knife and the hiromoto. However I do see the point in getting a lower quality knife for my first carbon.


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## Benuser (Dec 7, 2013)

eighteesix said:


> So you're suggesting avoiding the Hiromoto for now? I'm in US.


Make your first scratches on an unexpensive carbon. IIRC in the US you have Old Hickories for that purpose.
Of course you can use a Hiromoto with its factory edge. It will be for sure the sharpest knife you've ever handled. But don't expect it to hold for months.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 7, 2013)

eighteesix said:


> The price is so similar between that knife and the hiromoto. However I do see the point in getting a lower quality knife for my first carbon.



Not so much a lower quality, but the Hiromoto (at least the one's I have handled) needed to be thinned to be good cutters. The CarboNext has no such limitation. 

In addition, the soft stainless cladding of the Hiromoto scratches very easily, while the harder mono steel of the CarboNext will not.


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## eighteesix (Dec 7, 2013)

Very helpful, lots of good info much appreciated. There's just so many options and I've only handled several brands of blades (Shun, Wusthof, Global, Miyabi) so it's really difficult to make decisions on knives I've never used or owned, especially carbon. 

Leaning towards a 240mm CarboNext, solely because it's my first japanese-made knife.


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## toddnmd (Dec 7, 2013)

I seem to recall that more recent Hiromotos are thinner. I have a relatively recent (about a year old) Hiro AS santoku that is nice and thin. Thinner than my Konosuke HD, which is considered a laser. Not sure if it's fair to generalize from just that one, but thought I'd put that out there.


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## eighteesix (Dec 7, 2013)

toddnmd said:


> I seem to recall that more recent Hiromotos are thinner. I have a relatively recent (about a year old) Hiro AS santoku that is nice and thin. Thinner than my Konosuke HD, which is considered a laser. Not sure if it's fair to generalize from just that one, but thought I'd put that out there.


Based on their production, it's my understanding that many of the Hiromotos (as well as many blades many in Seki City) are very similar with not a lot of variation--only slight. More input would be greatly appreciated on the subject.


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## Benuser (Dec 7, 2013)

Recent Hiromotos are much thinner behind the edge than a few years ago. The former fat cladding is ground off just as a good sharpener would do it.
It's true the soft stainless cladding scratches easily. But because it's so soft the same scratches are removed just as easily as well. All you need is a small strip of fine sandpaper, if you care about these things.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 8, 2013)

Hope the poster is not getting confused,I am guilty of getting off topic for sure.You can get a Opinel #12 carbone folder for around 20.00.It is the large one wt.4.5" blade.I have one & use it alot mostly for gardening.It gets very sharp & a good cheap carbon blade to practice on.Plus it's a nice large folder that cuts well.

I don't think of Hiromoto's as show knives to say the least.They are workhorse wt. good core steel.It's not like Damascus or perfect Kasumi mist finish.A few scratches do not affect function at all.


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## eighteesix (Dec 9, 2013)

Found a nice Opinel #12 for $20 on amazon. I think I may go with that and stick with the Hiromoto based on the recent reviews given here. Which means I'd also pick up a sharpening stone to use with the Opinel as practice.

Someone suggested I would need a Medium Rough and Medium Fine stone for my AS Gyuto. Would this whetstone do the job?

JCK Special Combination Whetstone (#1000 and #4000)
Medium Rough Grit / Fine Grit


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## toddnmd (Dec 9, 2013)

Yep, a 1K/4K should do you just fine.


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## eighteesix (Dec 9, 2013)

toddnmd said:


> Yep, a 1K/4K should do you just fine.


I know a JCK 1/4k stone is an option, but the King 1/6k is cheaper and I've read is a good stone for beginners. Assuming I'm using a carbon Hiromoto with it, would the King still be a good choice, as a beginner, and with that AS gyuto?

I've seen other posts praising Gesshin stones but prices there are steep.


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## Benuser (Dec 9, 2013)

No own knowledge about the King. As far I've read it's rather soft, slow and easily dishing, and not too appropriated for harder carbides. That makes me a little suspicious about use with AS.


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## eighteesix (Dec 9, 2013)

Benuser said:


> No own knowledge about the King. As far I've read it's rather soft, slow and easily dishing, and not too appropriated for harder carbides. That makes me a little suspicious about use with AS.


Versus the JCK 1/4k?

When sharpening, is there anything else I would need? Other equipment to go with a stone? A plate? My own method of securing the stone. Anything else ?


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 9, 2013)

I think the JCK is a better stone 1/4K is a good grit combo too.No need to go over 4K on a Gyuto.JCK mentions it is good for AS steel.

You can use damp rags & a section of 2x4 wood to sharpen on.Use untreated wood,you can get it cheap or even free.Alot of sharpeners use diamond plates to flatten their stones,the more fine the grit the less a stone dishes as a rule.You can get X- course plate for around 50.00.

It may seem like alot,65.00 for a combo stone & 50.00 for a plate,but it is not really.With practice you will become a skilled freehand sharpener.JKI Jon Broida-(knifesharpeningplaylist)are some of the best English language tutorals on knife sharpening out there.


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## eighteesix (Dec 10, 2013)

What about a diamond plate like this?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001WP1L0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Or are there other options? No idea what I'm looking for or if a diamond plate is even necessary to flatten a stone.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 10, 2013)

eighteesix said:


> What about a diamond plate like this?
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001WP1L0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> Or are there other options? No idea what I'm looking for or if a diamond plate is even necessary to flatten a stone.



That is the coarse the, plate in X- coarse is the same price for the DMT.You do not need a plate to level your stones,you can use dry wall sanding sheets or even sandpaper.Once you invest in a plate in this case only 43.00,it is easy to use,works better than the syn. stone fixers.Plus it can be used for chip & tip repair.


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## quantumcloud509 (Dec 10, 2013)

you can find them used closer to 260. But its worth it. Takeda 240.


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## zitangy (Dec 11, 2013)

franzb69 said:


> hattori's VG10 is hands down the best heat treat of VG10 anywhere. which says a lot about their knife line (HD). really good stuff. so if there's anything to say about Ryusen's Blazen which are also the same people that does the heat treating for hattori's vg10 line, their powdered stainless should be pretty darn good as well.
> 
> =D



Is the Knife Forum version of Hattori VG10 ( not Damascus version, solely sold by Koki) also Oemed to Ryusen by Hattori?

This knife seems to have fallen out of favour over the years.


tks
d


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## eighteesix (Dec 16, 2013)

quantumcloud509 said:


> View attachment 20808
> you can find them used closer to 260. But its worth it. Takeda 240.



this knife looks like its seen better days


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## eighteesix (Dec 16, 2013)

keithsaltydog said:


> That is the coarse the, plate in X- coarse is the same price for the DMT.You do not need a plate to level your stones,you can use dry wall sanding sheets or even sandpaper.Once you invest in a plate in this case only 43.00,it is easy to use,works better than the syn. stone fixers.Plus it can be used for chip & tip repair.



im not entirely sure im following your post. youre saying that the plate i linked is or is not a good item to level stones?


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 16, 2013)

Either will do X-coarse little faster


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## toddnmd (Dec 16, 2013)

eighteesix said:


> this knife looks like its seen better days



Looks like a Takeda. What do you see that is a concern?


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## eighteesix (Dec 16, 2013)

keithsaltydog said:


> Either will do X-coarse little faster



where can i find an x-coarse plate


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 16, 2013)

Same site scroll down


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## eighteesix (Dec 16, 2013)

keithsaltydog said:


> Same site scroll down



what site? amazon?


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 16, 2013)

eighteesix said:


> what site? amazon?



The one you posted scroll down to what other's bought its the DMT D8X 8" Dia-Sharp Extra Coarse 43.43


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## eighteesix (Dec 16, 2013)

keithsaltydog said:


> The one you posted scroll down to what other's bought its the DMT D8X 8" Dia-Sharp Extra Coarse 43.43



i see it. i guess im still confused as to why you recommend the D8X over the D8E


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## franzb69 (Dec 16, 2013)

> Is the Knife Forum version of Hattori VG10 ( not Damascus version, solely sold by Koki) also Oemed to Ryusen by Hattori?
> 
> This knife seems to have fallen out of favour over the years.



not sure but most likely


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## Benuser (Dec 17, 2013)

Koki from JCK is quite clear about it: if the HD series are produced elsewhere, the FH are produced by Hattori.


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## franzb69 (Dec 17, 2013)

hattori can claim they produce it themselves, but it's no secret that most knife making companies subcontract certain services to other smaller knifemakers such as heat treat. they can say that they do the grinding and the whatever else but leave other jobs to other smaller makers.

but who cares? t's just small details. it's still a great product that has great reviews, even though it has fallen out of fashion over the years.


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## Benuser (Dec 18, 2013)

But who cares??
Franz, please reread your post no. 13.


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## eighteesix (Jan 2, 2014)

ive still been examining a few options. im currently looking at just going with a Fujiwara FKH carbon 240mm. this particular blade has a 70/30 Double Bevel Edge. Im wondering, as this would be my first guyto blade and im a total beginner sharpening at home, is a 70/30 bevel a good idea? it sounds like it would be difficult to maintain an edge like that for a beginner. thoughts?

i believe the tojiro dp 240mm has a 50/50 bevel


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 2, 2014)

Don't worry about it. Sharpening a 70/30 bevel presents no particular issues, plus the FKH is pretty forgiving.

If you want a carbon, and can live with the reactivity, go for it. FKH are outstanding value.


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## Benuser (Jan 2, 2014)

It really all depends on your present sharpening practices. If you're a jig user, and used to religiously counting the strokes you perform on both sides as some do with apparently symmetric edges, well than it's a great occasion to review the procedure and change your habits.
Otherwise there's no fundamental difference between sharpening very asymmetric and fairly symmetric double bevelled blades. You restore a previous configuration as the edge has moved a very little towards the spine. You start somewhere above the bevel on one side, go down to the very edge, raise a burr, and do the same at the other side.
So far the degree of asymmetry is irrelevant.


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## eighteesix (Jan 2, 2014)

i dont know what a 'jig user' is. steel?


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## Benuser (Jan 2, 2014)

I meant the user of a device like the EdgePRO.


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## eighteesix (Jan 2, 2014)

oh.. haha. ive never even heard of that.


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## Benuser (Jan 2, 2014)

In which case: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry--The-REAL-DEAL


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## Benuser (Jan 2, 2014)

eighteesix said:


> oh.. haha. ive never even heard of that.


You're better off.


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## eighteesix (Jan 2, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> Don't worry about it. Sharpening a 70/30 bevel presents no particular issues, plus the FKH is pretty forgiving.
> 
> If you want a carbon, and can live with the reactivity, go for it. FKH are outstanding value.


ive been looking more and more into the reactivity, especially with the FKH line--it will likely be a constant issue with that carbon knife regardless of treatment and patina. I think I'll go with FKM line instead as my first knife. I was told the Fujiwara won't chip as easily as the Tojiro DP line.

Perhaps a Hiromoto AS down the line.


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## Benuser (Jan 2, 2014)

eighteesix said:


> with the FKH line--it will likely be a constant issue with that carbon knife regardless of treatment and patina.


It doesn't coincide with my experience with the FKH. You've to force a patina when it's brand new. With time it calms down.
Forcing a patina consists of degreasing with alcohol, applying hot vinegar and rinsing with hot soap water. That's all.
A stainless blade at the same price will be a lesser performer and much harder to sharpen. That's why people use carbon blades.
With the Hiromoto you won't have the patina fuss. Only a small part of the core is exposed, and is poorly reactive.


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## eighteesix (Jan 2, 2014)

i was reading numerous posts over the internet and i read a few times that certain blades, the FKH being one of them, has food discoloration issues the life of the knife. i suppose some blades can be different even by the same manufacturer.

i did read that the hiromoto AS typically never has those issues.


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## EdipisReks (Jan 2, 2014)

eighteesix said:


> i was reading numerous posts over the internet and i read a few times that certain blades, the FKH being one of them, has food discoloration issues the life of the knife. i suppose some blades can be different even by the same manufacturer.
> 
> i did read that the hiromoto AS typically never has those issues.



The Hiromoto AS is clad in stainless steel, and AS is a very pure carbon.


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## eighteesix (Jan 2, 2014)

i knew about the cladding. youre suggesting the impurities in the carbon blades cause the discoloration and not the carbon itself?


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 3, 2014)

eighteesix said:


> i knew about the cladding. youre suggesting the impurities in the carbon blades cause the discoloration and not the carbon itself?



That's the theory. The FKH is SK-4 steel, which is also made by Hitachi (who also make white, blue, AS and other carbon steels you may have read about). The SK steels are cheaper, and contain greater levels of impurities (particular sulfur and phosphorus) which are thought contribute to the reactivity.

As Ben says, it's easily passivated, and presents not nearly as much of a problem as some soft-iron clad carbon knives do.


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## NO ChoP! (Jan 3, 2014)

Also, blue steels actually have added elements such as chromium and tungsten to aid in stain resistance and overall resilience. Aogami goes a step further by adding molybdenum and vanadium....


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## eighteesix (Jan 3, 2014)

My main hesitancy in getting a Hiro AS first was my fear of damaging the blade, being that I have no sharpening experience. However, I'm going to buy a very coarse combo stone and a fine stone (around 6K). That way, I can practice on the stainless that I'm getting rid of, and then hone my abilities on the Hiro. It's twice as expensive than a FKH but in reality, $160 is cheap for a nice blade that should last me many years.

Should I still expect long-term discoloring of vegetables? Do people recommend using a stainless petty/alt blade for cutting onions/tomatoes/etc? I mention onions because they seem to take on discoloration the most.


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 3, 2014)

No, your Hiro AS will be fine cutting everything. The core steel isn't that reactive at all, especially once you have used it a few times.


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## eighteesix (Jan 3, 2014)

Does anyone have any experience or advice on using a steel with the Hiro AS before every use? Is a smooth ceramic steel (or diamond rod) a bad idea for that knife?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 3, 2014)

eighteesix said:


> Does anyone have any experience or advice on using a steel with the Hiro AS before every use? Is a smooth ceramic steel (or diamond rod) a bad idea for that knife?



There is no need to steel or hone it before every use. Steeling is useful for softer blades to straighten the edge which rolls and deforms under use, but is of limited utility on a high-hardness blade like the Hiromoto. In fact, using a grooved steel on it will damage the edge, rather than improve it.

Rick


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## eighteesix (Jan 3, 2014)

Made the order.
Hiromoto Aogami Super Gyuto 240mm
Hiromoto Gingami No.3 Petty 120mm
w/ Sayas

Thanks for everyone's input and help. Much appreciated!


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## eighteesix (Jan 4, 2014)

ah man the G3 120mm sold out. permanently :scared4:


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## Benuser (Jan 4, 2014)

eighteesix said:


> ah man the G3 120mm sold out. permanently :scared4:


Have the 150, would have been my first choice. In the case of the HG3 a solid little performer, nothing spectacular, very useful.


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## eighteesix (Jan 5, 2014)

the 150mm saya is not in stock. I'm wondering how difficult or easy it would be to acquire a 150mm saya that fits my HG3 petty even if it's not purchased and therefore fit to the knife at the same time.


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## Benuser (Jan 6, 2014)

The HG3 petty has very common profile and dimensions. I would mail Mr Koki Iwahara from JCK and ask for a solution.


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## eighteesix (Jan 6, 2014)

thanks Benuser, you've been most helpful in my adventure! :biggrin:


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## boomchakabowwow (Jan 6, 2014)

this thread is awful!! now i want a 240mm Hiro as well..DAMN!

so in summary..the profile on the knife you bought is more curved? it isnt one of those straight/flat profile knives? i see the pics. but just wanted to make sure.


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## eighteesix (Jan 6, 2014)

I bought a Hiro AS. it isn't here yet. I didn't post any photos of it.


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