# Etiquette of hiding behind a second account and criticizing others for what I do on a daily basis



## elise88 (Jan 12, 2019)

Hi all,

I was introduced to this forum by someone i met in a knife event sometime ago. I like collecting myself.

Is there a guide to follow in regards to selling a knife here or some things that are frowned upon?

I'm only asking as i noticed an Ashi Honyaki which is offered on Buy/Sell and i know for a fact that it was sold to the seller at under 3k.

Thanks,
L̶i̶e̶s̶e̶ s0real


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 12, 2019)

Where's the popcorn emoji?


----------



## 9mmbhp (Jan 12, 2019)




----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 12, 2019)

There it is,.... now I can sit back.......


----------



## daveb (Jan 12, 2019)

The "guide" if you will is pretty well spelled out in the BST section. Have you read it?

In summary, tThe seller / owner of the knife may list for whatever he likes. No one is forced to buy. Some haggling may take place via PM if desired. A mutually agreed upon transaction is a good thing for both parties - regardless of price / value agreed upon.

"Flipping" for profit is frowned upon but is within the rules. Remarks such as the one you made are frowned upon and are NOT within the rules. We don't need any self appointed BST police. First time up you'll get a warning, second time you'll have BST privileges revoked without further discussion.

KKF has no interest in the BST section and only provides it as a venue for interested buyers and sellers. Should a misadventure occur it is up to the parties involved to resolve it. Such misadventures, if they occur, are fair game for other sections of the forum.

Don't Bogart that popcorn - pass some over to me....


----------



## Matus (Jan 12, 2019)

Well, we have seen several sales where the item was being offered for more than the seller got it for. Flipping is largely frown upon, some would buy stones from auction sites and when finding a good one selling it for considerably more than what they payed. Sometimes value of certain knives appreciated over time. To my knowledge there are no official rules. The market here is driven by supply and demand. Only if someone would start to abuse the system too much mods would at some point step in as we have vendors here and they pay quite some fees to be able to promote and offer theirs products here.

I was wondering when I saw that Ashi gyuto as the price was more than anything I have ever seen to come out of Japan. It is also super rare, so maybe the seller was trying to see whether the demand is that high.


----------



## F-Flash (Jan 12, 2019)

Im happy that there is few shigs and katos that havent sell at BST. 
Maybe the craziness has come to an end.

Those are good knives, but not that good for everyday users. 
Now those have been more of collector items and trophies.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 12, 2019)

F-Flash said:


> Im happy that there is few shigs and katos that havent sell at BST.
> Maybe the craziness has come to an end.


Don't think the sellers got the memo. Clinging onto those bubble prices......


----------



## milkbaby (Jan 13, 2019)

IMHO this thread and initial post are borderline violation of the rules and should be locked and/or deleted. But I'm not a moderator. And I have nothing at stake because I've never resold a knife ever and have no plans to, just feel that this is unfair to the folks on BST.


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 13, 2019)

I definitely do not feel that a brand new forum member should jump in and start criticizing others. You trying to save the world? We are all adults here, and we all have internet connections, so the ability to check/ confirm pricing is well within all of our capabilities. The simplest thing to do if you do not agree with a selling price is to not buy the damn knife.


----------



## deskjockey (Jan 13, 2019)

A lot of good information and thoughts here.

"*Collector*" items go up and down in price for reasons baffling too many. "Fan boys" will fight over a knife and raise prices to stratospheric levels until there is one more knife than buyers who want one. 

Occasionally you will find an *outlier *that was purchased for a low price only to discover it is a highly sought after item worth so much you want to 'flip' it for an average tool which is what you thought you purchased and use the remaining funds for something else.

*Scalping *is a different topic and frowned upon harshly. 

When you have a "fan boy" item, and the "fan boys" go away or you discover the *hype *is unfounded, why wouldn't you try to sell it for what you paid (or overpaid ).

Play in the "deep end of the pool" with 'fan boy' purchases and sooner or later you too will get burned.  In the end, enjoy the experience along the way because often that is the only thing of value you get left with.


----------



## RDalman (Jan 13, 2019)

Matus said:


> we have vendors here and they pay quite some fees to be able to promote and offer theirs products here.


Not quite I think. 
More like that fee is "pay once".. Currently without tags implying not paying: Stefans handles, devin, burke, burl source, HHH, JNS, Korin, bloodroot, k&s, dikristo, and myself.


----------



## Froztitanz (Jan 13, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> I definitely do not feel that a brand new forum member should jump in and start criticizing others. You trying to save the world? We are all adults here, and we all have internet connections, so the ability to check/ confirm pricing is well within all of our capabilities. The simplest thing to do if you do not agree with a selling price is to not buy the damn knife.



I agree with what you are saying. Voting with your wallet is the best way of voicing your opinion in a civilised manner. Will ig buyer, willing seller, imo.


----------



## HRC_64 (Jan 13, 2019)

Froztitanz said:


> Voting with your wallet is the best way of voicing your opinion in a civilised manner.



You should google "efficient market hypothesis"
then delete the above comment.


----------



## Gregmega (Jan 13, 2019)

Not that I gaf, but how can it be substantiated that the original sale was x? And does that even matter?

Somewhere out there in the world, there’s a customer who’s ready to burn 5.5k on an Ashi. And a buyer for a 1.2k standard Kato. And worst still, 2.3k for ku Kato shaped like a brick. And as long as those buyers exist, so do the prices requested.


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 13, 2019)

There are lots of other factors, such as currency fluctuations (we are an international forum, after all), supply limitations from some makers, etc. There is no rule about not being able to sell something for more than you paid. Knives from quite a few of the custom makers and high-end Japanese makers resell at a premium due to the long waiting times or because it is almost impossible to get a knife from that maker anymore.

I cannot imagine a world in which no one was allowed/ permitted to sell anything for any more than they paid for it. If you put on that rule, then no one should be allowed to sell a knife for less then they paid, so all stays balanced out.


----------



## CoteRotie (Jan 13, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> I cannot imagine a world in which no one was allowed/ permitted to sell anything for any more than they paid for it.



Venezuela.


----------



## mc2442 (Jan 13, 2019)

CoteRotie said:


> Venezuela.



Black Market......but perfect example of a country running itself into the ground by not letting market forces work


----------



## Nemo (Jan 13, 2019)

In this discussion, it seems to me that two issues are being conflated:

1) Is supply and demand economics an appropriate model for trading goods?

2) Should supply and demand economics be practiced in a situation where one side has restrictions on the information that they have available?

FWIW, to my mind, supply and demand economics is the best (?least bad) model we have come up with so far. I certainly don't think that we should put limits on asking price. But to work properly, supply and demand economics does rely on both partes having good information about whatever is being traded. Information assymetry can open the door to people paying much more (or less) than they would if they had good information.

But I hear the call, "caveat emptor" (buyer beware). Indeed they should beware. Part of being aware is having good information. I don't think it's really fair on the one hand to implore the buyer to beware and on the other to restrict their ability to do so by limiting the information that can be shared.

I'm not advocating negative comments in BST threads. But I don't think that people should be discouraged from sharing information about prices in other threads.


----------



## CoteRotie (Jan 13, 2019)

Nemo said:


> I'm not advocating negative comments in BST threads. But I don't think that people should be discouraged from sharing information about prices in other threads.



In an ideal world I would agree. However, in most transactions the buyer doesn't have good information about what the seller paid. 

When the car dealer shows you the "invoice" you really don't know what rebates and incentives they got. When you buy anything at retail you don't necessarily know the margin that the manufacturer, distributor and retailer are making. So you do your research as best you can and decide if the price makes sense for you.

Allowing comments on pricing of things in the BST section opens up a whole can of worms including the potential for incorrect or malicious comments and some vicious arguments. So I can understand not wanting to go down that road. Discussing price in general should be OK, so there's a fine line there. It's a tough job to moderate these things and I'm glad I don't have to make up the rules


----------



## Nemo (Jan 13, 2019)

CoteRotie said:


> In an ideal world I would agree. However, in most transactions the buyer doesn't have good information about what the seller paid.
> 
> When the car dealer shows you the "invoice" you really don't know what rebates and incentives they got. When you buy anything at retail you don't necessarily know the margin that the manufacturer, distributor and retailer are making. So you do your research as best you can and decide if the price makes sense for you.
> 
> Allowing comments on pricing of things in the BST section opens up a whole can of worms including the potential for incorrect or malicious comments and some vicious arguments. So I can understand not wanting to go down that road. Discussing price in general should be OK, so there's a fine line there. It's a tough job to moderate these things and I'm glad I don't have to make up the rules


I agree it's complex and there are no easy solutions.

Don't know about how car dealers are perceived where you are but in Oz, I wouldn't hold a transaction with a car dealer up as a model for fair commerce.


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 13, 2019)

To be honest, it's mindboggling to me how this is such a big topic ...

The owner of a knife (or car, painting, watch etc.) should be able to list it at any price he/she wants!

NO ONE is forced to buy this item at that price. 

If someone is willing to pay that price, he/she is willing to pay that price to obtain the item. 

That really is all there is to it. 

I don't even care if the seller's sole intent is to make a profit with the knife. Who cares? It's a free world and that person OWNS the knife. He/she should be able to do with it whatever the ... you know what ... he/she wants. 

The knife mentioned here has not sold at that price. So why is this even a topic. IMHO the only bad etiquette here is post itself. What does the author intend? Is he the previous owner of the knife and sour now that he sold it for less than he could've gotten?


----------



## dwalker (Jan 13, 2019)

I think the main problem here is that many members feel like this is a community of friends. (Myself included). When these type of sales happen, some wonder "why would you do that to a friend?". 

Solution: realize that not everyone here is your friend.


----------



## McMan (Jan 13, 2019)

dwalker said:


> I think the main problem here is that many members feel like this is a community of friends. (Myself included). When these type of sales happen, some wonder "why would you do that to a friend?".
> 
> Solution: realize that not everyone here is your friend.


Well put.


----------



## fuzion (Jan 13, 2019)

In a free market sellers can set whatever prices, but shouldn't buyers also be able to openly discuss prices?


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 13, 2019)

fuzion said:


> In a free market sellers can set whatever prices, but shouldn't buyers also be able to openly discuss prices?


Fair if done outside a FS listing. Discussion of pricing trends should not be taboo. This thread is skirting the edge of what should be permitted though IMO


----------



## fuzion (Jan 13, 2019)

Jokes aside, since this is outside of the FS listing I'm curious to what were the most recent prices that ashi honyaki gyutos went for?


----------



## dwalker (Jan 13, 2019)

I think the better question is where is there another example of the said knife for sale for cheaper, or for sale at all. I don't know of another available anywhere at any price. Please let us know if you have an outlet for these at 50% of the asking price. I'm sure MANY here would be interested to know. If you have the only one available for sale, you can ask whatever you want. It doesn't mean you will automatically get what you are asking. If you own it, you can set the price. I don't like it anymore than anyone else but I'm not going to begrudge someone getting maximum value for a very rare luxury item. It's not like he's selling a Wusthof.


----------



## Gregmega (Jan 13, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Fair if done outside a FS listing. Discussion of pricing trends should not be taboo. This thread is skirting the edge of what should be permitted though IMO



How? Why? I saw you echo this sentiment earlier and I’m wondering exactly what you mean by this..


----------



## fuzion (Jan 13, 2019)

I don't see how that's the better question. I want to know what are the recent prices so when one becomes available for sale can make an informed decision. By making past sale prices a secret how's that a fair free market?

I've temp closed the thread until I have a chance to read it completely and check for duplicate accounts as each member is to have only one account. I see the beginning post was by one using a duplicate to a banned person.


----------



## dwalker (Jan 13, 2019)

Past sale threads still exist. Do some research, though I don't know what difference it makes on such a rare item that has been listed on this forum only a handful of times. I bought a used Kato 5 years ago for $350. That is meaningless if I want another one today.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 13, 2019)

fuzion said:


> I don't see how that's the better question. I want to know what are the recent prices so when one becomes available for sale can make an informed decision. By making past sale prices a secret how's that a fair free market?



I would think this particular knife is custom ordered. I remember seeing this and another with same handle but shorter (I think) on KKF a few years ago. 
Hard to know retail value without getting quote from source or go-between. There are a few listed here of various lengths but none that I've found with that incised kanji.
https://www.razorsharp.com.sg/ashi-hiroshi-ashi-hamono.html


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 13, 2019)

Here we go. Pic links missing but sure its the same knife

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...to-yo-handle-special-order.34884/#post-520479


----------



## dwalker (Jan 13, 2019)

Listed at $3,800 a year and a half ago.


----------



## labor of love (Jan 13, 2019)

I don’t feel bad for anyone that drops $5500 on a knife without doing research.


----------



## panda (Jan 13, 2019)

Meanwhile I just bought a hiromoto honyaki for much more sensible price.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 13, 2019)

panda said:


> Meanwhile I just bought a hiromoto honyaki for much more sensible price.


And one that will actually see some action


----------



## labor of love (Jan 13, 2019)

Stop crapping on Venezuela. Its not as bad as the propaganda would have you believe.


----------



## labor of love (Jan 13, 2019)

At this point flipping and profiteering is inevitable on the forum I suppose but at the very least we should be able to point out how lame it is that people do it(both the selling and the buying).
It just gets in the way of discussion concerning actually using knives.


----------



## Chicagohawkie (Jan 13, 2019)

3 - 4 years ago Ashi Honyakis could be had for under a grand quite often. Who knows what the price could bring in a few years from now? 5500 may be a bargain! Then again, if Ashi started making them again the value would plummet. Ya just never know.


----------



## crockerculinary (Jan 13, 2019)

Do you all realize you have the this same discussion like every 3-4 weeks?


----------



## daveb (Jan 13, 2019)

dwalker said:


> I think the main problem here is that many members feel like this is a community of friends....



Part of the reason I hang around is I see it as a community of gentlemen who generally comport themselves as such. This instance is a shake my head kind of thing but it's withing the rules. Interesting that the OP who threw the first stone appears to be a known and ostracized "flipper" re-emerging from the past.

Much more egregious to me are Riverie current WTS posts for the two Suisin Yani's. These were recently purchased from Korin as part of a Suisin promotion. $200 each, limit one per customer. I don't like to ascribe motives to anyone but it seems to me that these were purchased from Korin with the intention of flipping them on this forum for 4X profit. It's within the rules, but bad form and an abuse of both our sponsoring vendor and the bst subforum.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/4-great-bnib-single-bevel-knives-pt1.39923/#post-589558
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/4-great-single-bevel-bnib-knives-pt2.39924/


----------



## daveb (Jan 13, 2019)

crockerculinary said:


> Do you all realize you have the this same discussion like every 3-4 weeks?



Hey now, I own stock in Orville, sales are trending up.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 13, 2019)

Who doesn't love a good pricing thread. We would never have been the wiser to Riverie's selling shenanigans. $200 for those blades was a genuine bargain.


----------



## ynot1985 (Jan 13, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Here we go. Pic links missing but sure its the same knife
> 
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...to-yo-handle-special-order.34884/#post-520479



this was the one that Jon sold (from what I know, this went to soreal and then onto to Andreu which is on BST now)

It's not the same one as the one sold by Razorsharp. It's only in the ones that popped up a few months back that have stamped Kanji. These went for 2.5k-3k depending on who you asked.

I had the pleasure of visiting Jon's restaurant a few months back. I almost fell off my seat when his executive chef told me his ashi honyaki gyuto was purchased years ago for $150-$200. It's his "beater" knife when he does not want to risk chipping his single bevel stuff


----------



## tgfencer (Jan 13, 2019)

Deja vu is strong with this thread.

Personally, I sell an item at what its value is to me, sometimes that's less than what I paid, sometimes not. If the buyer agrees with that value, I sell it. If not, I either negotiate to an agreement, or I don't sell. Seems simple enough. It takes two to make a baby, as the saying goes. Occasionally, if its a friend, a longstanding forum member, or sometimes when I'm just feeling jolly, I'll give an additional discount.

I have two basic principles. One, I'm honest in my sales thread descriptions about the items, their condition, etc, and in reply to people who reach out with questions. Essentially, I do my best to help people make an informed decision. And two, I don't take advantage of newcomers. If they still want to buy once they fully understand what they are getting themselves into with their potential purchase, then that's their choice.


----------



## lemeneid (Jan 13, 2019)

If Ashi was $5500, it might actually be wiser to start collecting tamahagane tantos made by professional swordsmiths.


----------



## Panamapeet (Jan 13, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> If Ashi was $5500, it might actually be wiser to start collecting tamahagane tantos made by professional swordsmiths.



That is always a good idea!!


----------



## parbaked (Jan 14, 2019)

The knife has stag handles.
The composition of stag horn is almost identical to Unicorn.
Try to find another one...


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 14, 2019)

Stag Antler is just fancy buffalo horn


----------



## bahamaroot (Jan 14, 2019)

I've never seen the appeal in stag myself.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 14, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> I've never seen the appeal in stag myself.


Well not on a chef knife at least. Works perfectly for a Bowie


----------



## bahamaroot (Jan 14, 2019)

Whenever I see all these rare "BNIB" knives show up my first thought is that it was only purchased for the purpose of flipping. When so many of us try for months to years trying to get a hold of these knives from retailers and friends, it's obvious what's going on when so many show up new on B/S/T.


----------



## Gregmega (Jan 14, 2019)

daveb said:


> Part of the reason I hang around is I see it as a community of gentlemen who generally comport themselves as such. This instance is a shake my head kind of thing but it's withing the rules. Interesting that the OP who threw the first stone appears to be a known and ostracized "flipper" re-emerging from the past.
> 
> Much more egregious to me are Riverie current WTS posts for the two Suisin Yani's. These were recently purchased from Korin as part of a Suisin promotion. $200 each, limit one per customer. I don't like to ascribe motives to anyone but it seems to me that these were purchased from Korin with the intention of flipping them on this forum for 4X profit. It's within the rules, but bad form and an abuse of both our sponsoring vendor and the bst subforum.
> 
> ...



What’s the difference between waiting in a line for hours and hours to have the opportunity to buy a nice knife at a discount, and/or winning a knife off of a 20$ a ticket raffle? If you won the raffle ticket on a 1k knife, is it only worth 20$? Or Dave, how about standing on a cold street in TriBeCa from 6:30 in the morning, and still be back a load of people in the line, not to be let in until late afternoon? Not worth the time it took? Would t really call that ‘profit’. 

Also would love to know who the OP actually is. Funny how that projection thing works, innit?


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 14, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Also would love to know who the OP actually is. Funny how that projection thing works, innit?



Well they blocked/hide their profile so that tells you something.


----------



## ynot1985 (Jan 14, 2019)

dwalker said:


> I think the main problem here is that many members feel like this is a community of friends. (Myself included). When these type of sales happen, some wonder "why would you do that to a friend?".
> 
> Solution: realize that not everyone here is your friend.


 
+1. I think Soreal made many people realise this (I for one am. I used to hate flippers but now I just accept it as a part of things) and from that point onwards everything went haywire on BST. If you track the price rises, most of them happened in 2018 (when I say most, I mean the outlier prices). If these people aren't really my friends, I might as well make the most of it for myself. I still offer deals for friends but only in private.

People can diss the prices all they want but at the end of the day, you still need to be good or persistent enough to find them in the first place. Treat that as the reward for their hard work.


----------



## elise88 (Jan 14, 2019)

It's very interesting to see how this turns out. I have previously tried to purchase this particular knife from the previous owners and I have no other information other than how much the previous owners are selling/sold it for. I'm only asking as that was the price provided to me not too long ago and seeing how it has jumped to twice the price makes me wonder.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 14, 2019)

daveb said:


> Interesting that the OP who threw the first stone appears to be a known and ostracized "flipper" re-emerging from the past.


Care to elaborate?


----------



## ThaFurnace (Jan 14, 2019)

I have been mulling over whether or not to reply to this thread. I generally value my discretion and anonymity, but it has really spiraled out of control, so just a few thoughts: 

I just purchased this knife from Andreu yesterday. 

Like anyone else contemplating this kind of purchase, I did my due diligence and research, including the thread both corradobrit and dwalker referenced above. I feel I’m a savvy and fair buyer.

I’m also happy to say that he and I aligned very quickly to the sales price. I left with a feeling I could have gotten it for a few hundred less than our agreement, and I’m sure he felt he wanted a few hundred more than our agreed price. The market worked relatively well and left a happy buyer and seller. This thread really makes me sad as the buyer, even though I’m still thrilled to have this knife. 

I was never offended by his starting (asking) price, so i don’t know why all the hoop-la. If anything, It empowered me to do even more due diligence and market research. 

I hope this thread cools off a bit with my offered perspective.

Thank you.

ThaFurnace


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 14, 2019)

Congrats. You now own an unique example of the bladesmiths art. Would love to hear more about it, pics, specs? Ultimately the price will be what someone is willing to pay and glad to hear both seller and buyer aligned their expectations to make the sale happen.


----------



## ThaFurnace (Jan 14, 2019)

Thank you corradobrit. I’m looking forward to sharing some details with the community soon.

By the way... If your avatar name is in reference to the car, I owned two in the past... although I have since moved on to other brands. I will always cherish that model.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 14, 2019)

Yes, I owned a VW Corrado SLC for 10 years. Sold it and got a 993, last of the aircooled Porsche's as my fun car. I still have fond memories of that Corrado (the G60 I had wasn't such a fun ownership experience) as I do a Mark 1 GTI I owned in Italy


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Jan 14, 2019)

elise88 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I was introduced to this forum by someone i met in a knife event sometime ago. I like collecting myself.
> 
> ...






daveb said:


> The "guide" if you will is pretty well spelled out in the BST section. Have you read it?
> 
> In summary, tThe seller / owner of the knife may list for whatever he likes. No one is forced to buy. Some haggling may take place via PM if desired. A mutually agreed upon transaction is a good thing for both parties - regardless of price / value agreed upon.
> 
> ...






daveb said:


> Part of the reason I hang around is I see it as a community of gentlemen who generally comport themselves as such. This instance is a shake my head kind of thing but it's withing the rules. Interesting that the OP who threw the first stone appears to be a known and ostracized "flipper" re-emerging from the past.
> 
> Much more egregious to me are Riverie current WTS posts for the two Suisin Yani's. These were recently purchased from Korin as part of a Suisin promotion. $200 each, limit one per customer. I don't like to ascribe motives to anyone but it seems to me that these were purchased from Korin with the intention of flipping them on this forum for 4X profit. It's within the rules, but bad form and an abuse of both our sponsoring vendor and the bst subforum.
> 
> ...



So @daveb is what you are doing acceptable? Rather hypocritical and far more direct than the OP. @Gregmega made a good point, and as a moderator you ought to relinquish yourself from certain discussions


----------



## labor of love (Jan 14, 2019)

aboynamedsuita said:


> So @daveb is what you are doing acceptable? Rather hypocritical and far more direct than the OP. @Gregmega made a good point, and as a moderator you ought to relinquish yourself from certain discussions


No that’s a retarded suggestion. He moderates the forum, not the other way around.


----------



## ynot1985 (Jan 14, 2019)

labor of love said:


> No that’s a retarded suggestion. He moderates the forum, not the other way around.



Hmm, he wasn’t moderating.. he was expressing an opinion. It’s a conflict of interest


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 14, 2019)

dwalker said:


> I think the main problem here is that many members feel like this is a community of friends. (Myself included). When these type of sales happen, some wonder "why would you do that to a friend?".
> 
> Solution: realize that not everyone here is your friend.



I think it's a nice idea that we're friends ... and I've certainly experienced acts of friendship myself through this forum. But the reality is that we are talking about hundreds (if not thousands) of people from around the world mingling here. And in the case of the Ashi Honyaki we're talking about serious money here. Some of us don't have that much money in the bank, others can easily spend that kind of dough on a knife ... every month!

I think its fair to try to sell a knife at the best price. That price has to be determined by the seller. And ultimately by the buyer. 

Example: I was recently offered a lot of money for a knife of mine, double what I paid for (I turned it down, but that's a different story). The knife is hard to find, the (potential) buyer didn't want to wait, he wanted it right away. The price he was willing to pay to getting such a knife right away vs. waiting a lot longer to potentially find one was the premium he offered me. 

I don't see anything wrong with that.

Neither do I see anything wrong with discussing prices in general. What I personally don't like are posts that are clearly crafted to undermine a (specific) sale. 

We should be able to discuss topics like "Kato worth the (hype) price". But trying to screw someone because you don't like the price the knife was listed for? And then claiming it's to "protect the buyer"? Come on! Just one scenario where I would hate this to happen 

Think about this (fiction of cause)

- Seller needs money, desperately. He's sick, lost his job. He's selling all his assets, including a knife he purchased 

- Buyer is loaded. He wants that knife. For him that premium is a drop in the bucket ...

Now someone just comes along and undermines that sale. Maybe even gets a mod to remove the listing or whatever ... How fair is that? 

What I am saying: Don't judge ...


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 14, 2019)

elise88 said:


> It's very interesting to see how this turns out. I have previously tried to purchase this particular knife from the previous owners and I have no other information other than how much the previous owners are selling/sold it for. I'm only asking as that was the price provided to me not too long ago and seeing how it has jumped to twice the price makes me wonder.



And what's your point really?

Let me ask you this: If you were able to purchase the knife for ... say $2500 and I would now offer you $5000, would you refuse and sell it to me for $2500 just because that's what you paid for it?


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 14, 2019)

ynot1985 said:


> Hmm, he wasn’t moderating.. he was expressing an opinion. It’s a conflict of interest



That basically would mean he could not participate in the forum, almost at all ...

For Dave as for moderators on most forums, it's something they do voluntarily, without any compensation. They do it because they're passionate about a topic, in this case knives.

If we want truly impartial moderators who do nothing else but moderate the forum, we'd have to have a paid moderator.


----------



## Bensbites (Jan 14, 2019)

ynot1985 said:


> Hmm, he wasn’t moderating.. he was expressing an opinion. It’s a conflict of interest


Ok, I am going to project and assume certain things here based on my own experience moderating forums. 

Moderators do a thankless job because they are passionate about the subject. 

Moderators are forum members first, and have opinions too.


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

I always sell at a loss because for me it's never about turning a profit, plus I want regular folk to have an opportunity to try a cool knife.


----------



## khashy (Jan 14, 2019)

Congrats on your purchase. Imo, you should view the discussion in this thread from now on as a philosophical discussion rather than one about your specific knife.

I guess what I'm saying is that don't let this or any other thread detract from you enjoying your knife or casting any shadows over your purchase.

Having had the privilege to see a good number of decent blades over the years, I can wholeheartedly say that as far as double bevels go, nothing comes close to the knife you have just gotten - nothing. It is probably too cliche to say, but Ashi-san's honyakis are art. Unfortunately as with most art, it's only really possible to appreciate it fully with first hand experience, something that you will find out very soon. 

The rest of the discussion is what the community needs to have, please view it as such.

Congrats again on your new knife.




ThaFurnace said:


> I have been mulling over whether or not to reply to this thread. I generally value my discretion and anonymity, but it has really spiraled out of control, so just a few thoughts:
> 
> I just purchased this knife from Andreu yesterday.
> 
> ...


----------



## bkultra (Jan 14, 2019)

The OP is not a new member, infact it S0real just pretending to be a new member. Odd that he can flip knives all day, but God forbid someone else does it.

Have the balls to post under your own account. 

Etiquette my ass


----------



## Wdestate (Jan 14, 2019)

bkultra said:


> The OP is not a new member, infact it S0real just pretending to be a new member. Odd that he can flip knives all day, but God forbid someone else does it.
> 
> Have the balls to post under your own account.
> 
> Etiquette my ass



Got emmmm!


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 14, 2019)

bkultra said:


> The OP is not a new member, infact it S0real just pretending to be a new member. Odd that he can flip knives all day, but God forbid someone else does it.


The best defense is a good offense 


(the OP, not bkultra)


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 14, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> The best defense is a good offense
> 
> 
> (the OP, not bkultra)



Offense wins games, defense wins championships .... LOL


----------



## pete84 (Jan 14, 2019)

There is no etiquette in B/S/T any longer. Hasn't been for a while.


----------



## tgfencer (Jan 14, 2019)

pete84 said:


> There is no etiquette in B/S/T any longer. Hasn't been for a while.



Let’s not overgeneralize. I’ve experienced admirable etiquette from many members. Of course, good deeds aren’t nearly as juicy for threads like this as bad ones.


----------



## ashy2classy (Jan 14, 2019)

Wdestate said:


> Got emmmm!


----------



## tgfencer (Jan 14, 2019)

For whatever its worth to folks, the Giveaways/Pay it Forward subforum only had 8 new unique threads started in the whole of 2018, while the Passaround/Loaners only had 3. It's all good decrying the state of the forum's community, but community is what you make it.

Or maybe we should just build a big wall to keep all the thieves, flippers, and profiteers out of the forum...that will obviously fix everything....

As much as I enjoy this forum and most people in it, there are many more important things in life to worry and obsess over.


----------



## Jville (Jan 14, 2019)

We must protect the flipper. Don't hurt anybody 's feelings by criticizing a price... In a true free market criticizing prices would be part of market regulation. If a customer goes to a burger place and eats a $14 burger that wasn't cook properly, tasted bad, got sick, and complained publlically saying place x really sucks their burgers are overpriced. No one screams out you can't criticize a burger places prices, if someone is willing to eat their that's on them. If they get E.coli that's on them.


----------



## Chicagohawkie (Jan 14, 2019)

pete84 said:


> There is no etiquette in B/S/T any longer. Hasn't been for a while.


Yup, been a slow transition downhill since the “In the kitchen” blowup. Been just stupid since 2017 though. Remember the days when you could just order direct from most manufacturers? Ugh....


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 14, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Yup, been a slow transition downhill since the “In the kitchen” blowup. Been just stupid since 2017 though. Remember the days when you could just order direct from most manufacturers? Ugh....



There was a blowup?

I guess I was hibernating


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 14, 2019)

Yeah, I must have been sleeping too......


----------



## nakneker (Jan 14, 2019)

Congrats ThaFurnace on that knife. It’s stunning and like mentioned above a work of art. I hope share more details and pics when you get it.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 14, 2019)

**** soreal, boot that SOB!

Wasn't there a flipper alert thread around here somewhere?


----------



## Bwana (Jan 14, 2019)

daveb said:


> Part of the reason I hang around is I see it as a community of gentlemen who generally comport themselves as such. This instance is a shake my head kind of thing but it's withing the rules. Interesting that the OP who threw the first stone appears to be a known and ostracized "flipper" re-emerging from the past.
> 
> Much more egregious to me are Riverie current WTS posts for the two Suisin Yani's. These were recently purchased from Korin as part of a Suisin promotion. $200 each, limit one per customer. I don't like to ascribe motives to anyone but it seems to me that these were purchased from Korin with the intention of flipping them on this forum for 4X profit. It's within the rules, but bad form and an abuse of both our sponsoring vendor and the bst subforum.
> 
> ...




On Ebay now, 3-4 guys bought 5-10 masamoto KS each from Korin and trying to sell them for 700-1000 each. I was the leader in one auction at around 450usd but 24 hours before closing they withdraw the knife for it being too few bids and after 1 day relist it again trying to get more money. Sad really


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 14, 2019)

Bwana said:


> On Ebay now, 3-4 guys bought 5-10 masamoto KS each from Korin and trying to sell them for 700-1000 each. I was the leader in one auction at around 450usd but 24 hours before closing they withdraw the knife for it being too few bids and after 1 day relist it again trying to get more money. Sad really



On the hand I'd agree with you ...

But sad? I don't know ... we're still talking about luxury items here, that no one here really NEEDS ...

There are a lot of things I'd call "sad" in this world, someone trying to make money by selling a knife sure isn't one of them ... just my 2 cents.


----------



## Matus (Jan 14, 2019)

alterwisser - I agree, first world problems, but I still want to believe that we can be nicer to each other than that. And I sincerely hope that we are more personal and more courteous than eBay.

I may be a little naive, but KKF was a place that not only turned me to a perfect money pit, but it played a key role in me becoming a hobby knife maker and pursuing that I met more kind, helpful and friendly people than I can count. I am genuinely thankful for that.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 14, 2019)

What I find sad is that when trust was a bit stronger here members could try a kato, ks, shig, etc in a passaround and find out for themselves firsthand what the said knife was all about without having to spend stupid money for something they may not like. I know it still goes on behind the scenes here (sharing knives) but I believe the loss of the public passarounds to be the one direct correlation with skyrocketing prices.


----------



## Cyrilix (Jan 14, 2019)

Alterwisser,

What is your skin in the game here? You are very one sided with your comments, looking to make light of things that others are concerned with. What's the agenda?

If people have concerns and voice them, why do you consistently try to rebuke them?


----------



## bkultra (Jan 14, 2019)

chinacats said:


> **** soreal, boot that SOB!
> 
> Wasn't there a flipper alert thread around here somewhere?



I set his post count back to one and removed his ability to Sell. He can earn back the right just like any other member. Lets call it a second chance. I will ban the puppet account shortly, I was hoping for a reply first.


----------



## ian (Jan 14, 2019)

chinacats said:


> What I find sad is that when trust was a bit stronger here members could try a kato, ks, shig, etc in a passaround and find out for themselves firsthand what the said knife was all about without having to spend stupid money for something they may not like. I know it still goes on behind the scenes here (sharing knives) but I believe the loss of the public passarounds to be the one direct correlation with skyrocketing prices.



Even passarounds of less expensive knives ($200-$300) would be welcome imo. I'll start one once I have a reasonable knife that I'm not actively using---currently, I have to sell one if I'm going to buy one so my collection is all on my mag strip. Anyway, probably many of you have already tried most of the standards in that price range, but I imagine those that haven't would appreciate a passaround.


----------



## NBrewster (Jan 14, 2019)

daveb said:


> Part of the reason I hang around is I see it as a community of gentlemen who generally comport themselves as such. This instance is a shake my head kind of thing but it's withing the rules. Interesting that the OP who threw the first stone appears to be a known and ostracized "flipper" re-emerging from the past.
> 
> Much more egregious to me are Riverie current WTS posts for the two Suisin Yani's. These were recently purchased from Korin as part of a Suisin promotion. $200 each, limit one per customer. I don't like to ascribe motives to anyone but it seems to me that these were purchased from Korin with the intention of flipping them on this forum for 4X profit. It's within the rules, but bad form and an abuse of both our sponsoring vendor and the bst subforum.
> 
> ...



Well **** @daveb lucky you got one at cost ;-P

But seriously... I don't really understand why we can't post pricing information or origin of the knife if it's notable. 

RE the Korin knives - if it was part of the promotion at the Korin event, it is notable information that should be available to the seller. Free markets work better when buyers have complete information. Other members of this forum should be free to share their knowledge if a user is withholding relevant information about something they're putting up on BST. 

PS. As for the user "Greg" who is either misremembering what the Korin event was like or wasn't even there, nobody "waited in line for hours" at 6:30. I showed up at 10am to an empty Korin, got my ticket, went to lunch, watched the sushi demo for about an hour and then bought a knife and left. If you consider watching a sashimi demo with a celebrated Japanese chef a chore well...


----------



## Anton (Jan 14, 2019)

I hope no one is loosing too much sleep over this.

Outside of a small number of old timers whom I consider myself lucky to have met and passed around Ashi's, Kato's, Burke, etc without even knowing each other in person. The community ship has sailed - we just too big a crowd now and some rats are bound to creep in.... And also, we do live in a capitalist economy so unless you want your assets' value controlled we have to accept it as part of the deal, doesn't mean we have to like it I guess. 

Still a good forum outside of the dreaded but much visited BST


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 14, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Alterwisser,
> 
> What is your skin in the game here? You are very one sided with your comments, looking to make light of things that others are concerned with. What's the agenda?
> 
> If people have concerns and voice them, why do you consistently try to rebuke them?



It’s called a discussion .... I’m voicing my opinion just as you are voicing yours.

No skin in the game, other then believing that one should be able to do what he wants with his property ....


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 14, 2019)

chinacats said:


> What I find sad is that when trust was a bit stronger here members could try a kato, ks, shig, etc in a passaround and find out for themselves firsthand what the said knife was all about without having to spend stupid money for something they may not like. I know it still goes on behind the scenes here (sharing knives) but I believe the loss of the public passarounds to be the one direct correlation with skyrocketing prices.



I remember that an old member (I don’t think he’s active anymore) sent me a Shig to try, just like that .... blew me away!


----------



## labor of love (Jan 14, 2019)

Yeah, I offer people stuff to try all the time and vice versa. There’s plenty of trust among people here that know of other people with good character.
Trusting people in general is how knives started “disappearing” in the first place.
I actually like newer passaround activities that are done privately or in my case where Members are properly vetted. 
If you want to participate you have to demonstrate that you’re a decent human being and contribute the forum in ways besides flipping Fujiyamas or whatever.


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

I once loaned out a shig to a complete stranger and he sent me a Kochi and we sent knives back after two weeks, went perfectly smooth. But this was a time before sketchy people got loose into the yard..


----------



## chinacats (Jan 14, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Alterwisser,
> 
> What is your skin in the game here? You are very one sided with your comments, looking to make light of things that others are concerned with. What's the agenda?
> 
> If people have concerns and voice them, why do you consistently try to rebuke them?



Alterwisser and I have completely different views on this but he is a man of character who plainly states how he feels. As members I like to think we all have some skin in the game.


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 14, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Alterwisser and I have completely different views on this but he is a man of character who plainly states how he feels. As members I like to think we all have some skin in the game.



Thanks sir, appreciate it!

Hope winter isn’t too harsh for ya....


----------



## MontezumaBoy (Jan 14, 2019)

+1


panda said:


> I always sell at a loss because for me it's never about turning a profit, plus I want regular folk to have an opportunity to try a cool knife.


----------



## riverie (Jan 14, 2019)

daveb said:


> Part of the reason I hang around is I see it as a community of gentlemen who generally comport themselves as such. This instance is a shake my head kind of thing but it's withing the rules. Interesting that the OP who threw the first stone appears to be a known and ostracized "flipper" re-emerging from the past.
> 
> Much more egregious to me are Riverie current WTS posts for the two Suisin Yani's. These were recently purchased from Korin as part of a Suisin promotion. $200 each, limit one per customer. I don't like to ascribe motives to anyone but it seems to me that these were purchased from Korin with the intention of flipping them on this forum for 4X profit. It's within the rules, but bad form and an abuse of both our sponsoring vendor and the bst subforum.
> 
> ...


Dear Dave,

It’s such a sad, and unfortunate these things happen between us. I had nothing but a nice smooth and pleasant transaction with you in the past. I know you bought knife/knives and wood from me through BST with no issues, and we even talked a bit through PM. Yesterday you spit on my face in this open public discussion, slamming my sale thread, although you clearly said “It’s within the rules” and I didn’t violate any rule. However I reached out to you politely, and nicely this morning through private message to find out why you did that, and clarify everything, since I believe that’s the proper way to do when you’re adult and mature, before I said this in public. I know you’re online this noon and read my message, I never heard back to you, you might be busy and have no time to answer. And I’m totally fine…..I don’t judge and never claimed that this is kind of “hit and run”. However I want to clarify this….


*Much more egregious to me are Riverie current WTS posts for the two Suisin Yani's. These were recently purchased from Korin as part of a Suisin promotion. $200 each, limit one per customer*.

You’re absolutely right!!! Came at 6.30am in nyc cold weather, hoping lucky enough to able to pick the knife I wanted, because it was such a limited quantity. 1-2 for each blade on certain type including my doi, and won’t be able to pick up the knife after 2PM.


*I don't like to ascribe motives to anyone but it seems to me that these were purchased from Korin with the intention of flipping them on this forum for 4X profit.*

I collect Doi and love his knife. Anyway, someone’s intention or motif shouldn’t be your concern. Making profit …. Why not if it’s still within the common sense price??? If I sell that knife back at $200 that means:

1. I have no clue the real value of that knife

2. I’m a charity

3. I’m idiot, stupid or dumb

4. Crazy

I’m a longtime member here… matter in fact Dave Martell invited me here because I was a member of original knife forum KF before it split. I value the meaning, and integrity of this forum as a media to share our hobby, respect the core of enjoying this knife addiction, without hurting nor taking advantage from new or other member. Trust me on this…I’m not that kind of person. That being said, I won’t and never trying to ripping off someone from my sale. I did my homework before I posted price on my knife based on the value in the market, price from vendor, condition of my knife to make sure I’m being fair. That Doi hayate with same specs and length will cost you $1200 in korin, not including tax. You can check that also before you attacking me. Now am I greedy and a bad guy for selling it for $800 in a same BNIB condition ????

If you still not happy with 4X from original price, I have a nice propotition for you. Buy a lottery ticket for $20, and when that ticket hit the jackpot, I want first dibs…I will not pay you 4X, I will pay you 400X cash!!! Moral of story is, the original price of the stuff you bought from doesn’t really always show the real value when you’re trying to sell it. I sold my tatsuo for $1.7k because that’s how I valued them (buyee japan sold it for way over $2k). I sold my new ichimonji hamokiri for $325 because that’s how I value them ( new from ichimonji is $700), and the list goes on…


*It's within the rules, but bad form and an abuse of both our sponsoring vendor and the bst subforum.*

I bought the knife legally, legit, clean and square. No lowballing, no force in any harmful way. Korin said the price is XXX, I paid XXX with tax, and transaction fulfilled. I’m sure whatever I want to do with the knife after, won’t abuse korin. I could do whatever I want to do with it, selling it for 400000X or even burned it to the ground. I also sold many knives here. I saw many times the member that bought my knife from, resell his for hundreds dollar more….I’m totally fine with it. It’s his knife and I’m happy he could sell it to new owner that could enjoy the knife.

In term of you’re saying I have a bad form? Please elaborate more….My sale and thread were honest, term was clear, no hidden cost, pictures also real without any retouching or photoshop, price is there for potential buyer to check and see how much they cost outside, always replying pm for any questions regarding the sale…..what did I do wrong? Like you said I didn’t violate any rule .

On the other hand, you as moderator, you didn’t try to discuss your objection of my “egregious” act in private message. Yet you’re attacking me with those kind of judgments, profiling, and labeling in public. If anybody violating rules here….It was you!!!

“Remarks such as the one you made are frowned upon and are NOT within the rules. We don't need any self appointed BST police. First time up you'll get a warning, second time you'll have BST privileges revoked without further discussion.”

“KKF has no interest in the BST section and only provides it as a venue for interested buyers and sellers. Should a misadventure occur it is up to the parties involved to resolve it. Such misadventures, if they occur, are fair game for other sections of the forum.”


Feel free to ban me if you’re thinking my statements here are offensive and inappropriate. I also want to apologize to other member that got offended with my clarification and BST thread…..because clearly Daveb got offended.


----------



## Chicagohawkie (Jan 14, 2019)

This is becoming pretty embarrassing!


----------



## bkultra (Jan 14, 2019)

One time at band camp...


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Jan 14, 2019)

Mrmnm once sent me a Rader, DT, pimped Forgecraft and another. Never met him up until that point.


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

bkultra said:


> One time at band camp...


----------



## NBrewster (Jan 14, 2019)

This got weird. Not the least because I actually just read that...

If you asked me 2 years ago that I'd sit on my computer on a Monday night reading a 2000 word essay trying to justify the author's selling behaviors on a kitchen knife forums I'd have laughed in your face.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 14, 2019)

alterwisser said:


> Thanks sir, appreciate it!
> 
> Hope winter isn’t too harsh for ya....



Winter has been mild compared to last year but we're expecting an arctic blast w/ a bit of the white stuff. Time to break out the snowshoes


----------



## chinacats (Jan 14, 2019)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Mrmnm once sent me a Rader, DT, pimped Forgecraft and another. Never met him up until that point.



Haven't seen him around in a while but he exemplified the spirit of this place.


----------



## Duque (Jan 14, 2019)

DaveB - there is no excuse here - so just come out and apologise and say you were wrong - that’s all we expect .....no less no more


----------



## riverie (Jan 14, 2019)

It is weird that I have to explain my motives buying knives and explaining my asking price. But what's even weirder is that nasty, unclassy acts, and accusation coming from a well grown-up moderator


----------



## chinacats (Jan 14, 2019)

Not sure Dave needs to apologize. As to selling 200 knife for 800, I disagree with it but it is within the rules just as Dave stated.

As to getting pissy about being called out, maybe you could've thought to include that tidbit in your sales thread...charge whatever you like but why not fully disclose? Then you look like the man (to some I guess) vs the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar. I can name quite a few members here that would've passed on the good deal but as said, no obligation just etiquette.


----------



## labor of love (Jan 14, 2019)

riverie said:


> It is weird that I have to explain my motives buying knives and explaining my asking price.


People do it all the time. And no one is saying you have to do anything except obey the rules. Which you have.


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

Duque said:


> DaveB - there is no excuse here - so just come out and apologise and say you were wrong - that’s all we expect .....no less no more


NO, you sit back down.


----------



## riverie (Jan 14, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Not sure Dave needs to apologize. As to selling 200 knife for 800, I disagree with it but it is within the rules just as Dave stated.
> 
> As to getting pissy about being called out, maybe you could've thought to include that tidbit in your sales thread...charge whatever you like but why not fully disclose? Then you look like the man (to some I guess) vs the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar.



Oh Dave definitely no need to apologize!!! He's a moderator and he's always right!!! I did though since I thought that's the proper way to do. 

Regarding fully disclose my sale....I'm sorry if I miss that part....next time I'll make sure to type K I Z U N A all in capital.


----------



## ynot1985 (Jan 14, 2019)

NBrewster said:


> This got weird. Not the least because I actually just read that...
> 
> If you asked me 2 years ago that I'd sit on my computer on a Monday night reading a 2000 word essay trying to justify the author's selling behaviors on a kitchen knife forums I'd have laughed in your face.



A lot has happened here in the last 2 years


----------



## bahamaroot (Jan 14, 2019)

labor of love said:


> No that’s a retarded suggestion. He moderates the forum, not the other way around.


It's retarded calling someone else's suggestion retarded just because you don't agree with it.


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> It's retarded calling someone else's suggestion retarded just because you don't agree with it.


This response in itself is retarded.


----------



## Customfan (Jan 14, 2019)

Flavored popcorn is awesome..... all kinds, from the usuall caramel to some that are a bit crazier....

There is a place in the Shytown airport that has the most delicious popcorn, its addictive, I will eat the whole bucket...-

Whats it called?


----------



## Customfan (Jan 14, 2019)

Seem to remember..... but no, cant remember the name, just remember it has chocolate and peanuts, maybe almonds....

;-) damn, whats the freakin name of that joint.... If only I knew how to search using an electronic thingamagig


----------



## labor of love (Jan 14, 2019)

Salty once mentioned using primary yeast flakes for popcorn. Still to this day haven’t tried it but it sounds delicious.


----------



## Customfan (Jan 14, 2019)

Ahhh, we must ask him... sounds super interesting.... anyone want to weigh in?


----------



## Jkts (Jan 14, 2019)

I support Dave in this- flippers increase price and scarcity- whether this is a hobby or one’s livelihood, it makes knife buying more difficult and expensive for the rest of us.


----------



## Ryndunk (Jan 14, 2019)

I like to mix Sriracha into the butter before I toss it with the popcorn.


----------



## Jon-cal (Jan 14, 2019)

Flavacol is where it’s at. Love that stuff


----------



## bahamaroot (Jan 14, 2019)

panda said:


> This response in itself is retarded.


This whole discussion exemplifies retarded.


----------



## tgfencer (Jan 14, 2019)

Customfan said:


> Ahhh, we must ask him... sounds super interesting.... anyone want to weigh in?



Done it. Worth it. Also good mixed with grated parmesan.


----------



## labor of love (Jan 14, 2019)

I was actually thinking the other day about starting a BOH thread about butter flavored oil. How did this crap become so common in kitchens?


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 14, 2019)

Customfan said:


> ;-) damn, whats the freakin name of that joint....


Flippers????


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I was actually thinking the other day about starting a BOH thread about butter flavored oil. How did this crap become so common in kitchens?


I have yet to see this in any kitchen.. maybe it's a Louisiana thing??


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jan 14, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> Flippers????


Now thats funny


----------



## Customfan (Jan 14, 2019)




----------



## ian (Jan 14, 2019)

Popcorn + nutritional yeast = joy. My wife did this for years and I thought she was crazy, but then I got over myself and learned to love the yeast.


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

Bomb ass popcorn seasoning: Vinegar powder, grated Pecorino, fresh dill, granulated onion.


----------



## tgfencer (Jan 14, 2019)

ianbiringer said:


> Popcorn + nutritional yeast = joy. My wife did this for years and I thought she was crazy, but then I got over myself and learned to love the yeast.



Also good with buttered toast, maybe even a little marmite added as well, if you’re into that kind of thing.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 14, 2019)

I like it spicy but instead of shirachi I prefer ground naga morich.

As to the butter flavored oil I'm guessing it's just cheap and nasty like what they put on bad theatre corn?

As to the nutritional yeast, pardon my ignorance but how do you use it?


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

chinacats said:


> As to the nutritional yeast, pardon my ignorance but how do you use it?



You rub it on your..


----------



## Nemo (Jan 14, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I was actually thinking the other day about starting a BOH thread about butter flavored oil. How did this crap become so common in kitchens?


What's wrong with ghee/ clariried butter?


----------



## Customfan (Jan 14, 2019)




----------



## tgfencer (Jan 14, 2019)

chinacats said:


> As to the nutritional yeast, pardon my ignorance but how do you use it?



It most often comes as a flakey powder. Think a cross between cheese powder and flaked salt. Your imagination is the only limit.


----------



## HRC_64 (Jan 14, 2019)

<< new mod title >>

SALT AND OTHER RELATED POPCORN TOPICS


----------



## stringer (Jan 14, 2019)

Garrett's is the name of the Chicago popcorn place.


----------



## ian (Jan 14, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> It most often comes as a flakey powder. Think a cross between cheese powder and flaked salt. Your imagination is the only limit.





panda said:


> You rub it on your..



Here's what it looks like, FYI. You can apply it in a nutritional shower.


----------



## bkultra (Jan 14, 2019)

The great popcorn protest (2019 Edition)


----------



## Badgertooth (Jan 14, 2019)

panda said:


> You rub it on your..



... yeasty wand?


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

i love this thread


----------



## tgfencer (Jan 14, 2019)

Badgertooth said:


> ... yeasty wand?



You should make this your new username. Has a certain gravitas.


----------



## Chicagohawkie (Jan 14, 2019)

Customfan said:


> Flavored popcorn is awesome..... all kinds, from the usuall caramel to some that are a bit crazier....
> 
> There is a place in the Shytown airport that has the most delicious popcorn, its addictive, I will eat the whole bucket...-
> 
> Whats it called?


It’s Chi-town and it’s called Garrett’s I think.


----------



## daveb (Jan 14, 2019)

Wow, this has traveled a long way since morning coffee. 

Riverie - yes I got the pm's - a little busy to reply in kind or on here today. And yes we've had some transactions over the years that went quite well, I think for both parties..

But this ain't right. Going to Korin to "invest" in a promotional sale so that you can flip them within this community, on this forum is simply poor form. I'm sure your's are not the only knives from that promo that are being or were flipped - but they're the only ones here. Your claims of but, but, but, it's "market price" fall on (my) deaf ears when your sole intent was to flip them. But I'll say again it's within the rules and I'll not post anything negative within your bst post.

An argument could certainly be made that by buying promotional items from Korin, and then relisting them for full retail, that you are now competing with a sponsoring vendor without paying any vendor fees. Bit of a nit but.....

To those that feel I'm not entitled to an opinion or should refrain from expressing it I can only say "Piss up a rope". And keep waiting for that apology.

Popcorn is getting cold.


----------



## daveb (Jan 14, 2019)

Duque said:


> DaveB - there is no excuse here - so just come out and apologise and say you were wrong - that’s all we expect .....no less no more



Who are you and who is the "we" you claim to be speaking for?


----------



## Cyrilix (Jan 14, 2019)

Jkts said:


> I support Dave in this- flippers increase price and scarcity- whether this is a hobby or one’s livelihood, it makes knife buying more difficult and expensive for the rest of us.



I agree with this. Flippers are just businessmen that make money at the expense of both the craftsmen and the buyers. The craftsmen deserve to be paid a good wage for their work. The buyers deserve to appreciate a good knife made by these craftsmen (and from the perspective of a craftsman, they would probably wish that their crafts can be appreciated by as many as will appreciate it). Flippers don't really deserve anything and offer nothing in the value chain. Do they make anything? Sure they do, they make things more expensive for the consumer.

Obviously sellers will hate it when people discuss their FS items. There is nothing to gain by sharing information about price history. Look at the Canadian real estate market, for example. Real estate board tries to hide all of the historical information from buyers so that they can hold all the cards, but look what's happening now. Consumers are demanding to be better informed. So the question really comes down to this, are "transparency" and "integrity" considered to be values shared by this forum? If so, then calling people out is not a problem whatsoever.


----------



## Anton (Jan 14, 2019)

Badgertooth said:


> ... yeasty wand?


winning


----------



## lemeneid (Jan 14, 2019)

stringer said:


> Garrett's is the name of the Chicago popcorn place.


Garrett’s is crazy hype now where I am. They’re like the Shig and Katos of the popcorn world.


----------



## cschoedler (Jan 14, 2019)

While I’ve never been one to post much on the forum, I’m constantly lurking in the background.

This thread has left me with a real bad taste in my mouth.

I have the same Suisin Tanryu Riverie has listed for sale.

EXACT same. Kizuna and all. From the korin event. Do I think his asking price is out of line. Not at all.

I don’t live in NYC. Sure would be nice. I’ve considered coming to town for the annual Suisin event. Never happened.

This year I was able to convince a friends husband to stand in line at korin for me for $250.

Is the knife still worth $195?

Am I a sucker?

I paid $250 more than they were being sold for...

I got a killer knife for $400 less than retail.

If I wanted to sell it, what’s a fair price?

$195 because that’s what Korin sold it for?

$475 because that’s what I have in it?(including shipping)

What F#####g daveb thinks is fair?

If someone doesn’t buy it, so be it.

The price will drop until someone thinks it’s as good of a deal as I did.

End of the day the amount of effort that went into acquiring my knife was WAY more than $195.

If what Riverie did is against the “spirit of the forum” F### it, I’m over it.

But then again I’m just a lurker anyway, what do I know.


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

why so much effort to get this thing??


----------



## Cyrilix (Jan 14, 2019)

cschoedler said:


> While I’ve never been one to post much on the forum, I’m constantly lurking in the background.
> 
> This thread has left me with a real bad taste in my mouth.
> 
> ...



It's not a problem. We all have opinions. Just like you get a bad taste from this thread, others get a bad taste from other things. As long as everyone is free to talk it out without spamming. They can post messages, read messages, or ignore messages. It's great!

Personally, I dislike flippers. There is the guy that will buy an amazing knife for a discount, use it seriously, and then perhaps sell it to someone else at market price. Then, there's the guy that buys multiple knives and keeps them in the box, only to flip them later. These two people are different. I assume you're more of the former.

By the way, your emotions run high, but even so, you should still strive to make your points politely. It's basic respect.


----------



## milkbaby (Jan 14, 2019)

daveb said:


> Going to Korin to "invest" in a promotional sale so that you can flip them within this community, on this forum is simply poor form. I'm sure your's are not the only knives from that promo that are being or were flipped - but they're the only ones here. Your claims of but, but, but, it's "market price" fall on (my) deaf ears when your sole intent was to flip them. But I'll say again it's within the rules and I'll not post anything negative within your bst post.



While the letter of the rule is that no one shall post negatively on a thread in the BST, your post specifically called out a specific user and their specific items for sale on a different sub-forum of KKF. It could easily be argued that this is also "poor form". 

There is a specific rule against negative posts on a thread in the BST, perhaps to let the free market rule and not have people nixing a sale, be bashing each other, or other negative consequences that may follow. The result of directly calling out somebody specifically on another sub-forum do not seem to wholly different as we can see, other than it is not directly seen by people perusing BST, which I grant is a material difference. But the issue I'm getting at is whether you want to allow everybody to say "hey [specific user] is flipping [specific knife] on BST right now" on a different sub-forum. If so, why shouldn't I start "The Flipper Thread" on this board so everybody can point fingers or I mean be an informed customer?


----------



## panda (Jan 14, 2019)

i'm all for 'watch out for flipper' thread. heck those guys, they are the mosquitoes of the forum.


----------



## lemeneid (Jan 15, 2019)

So I guess Jon and Maxim, etc are all flippers then too. They buy the knives for cheapass prices in Japan then go back to US/EU and sell them for astronomically high prices. I demand BST knives be sold and bought at prices which the makers themselves priced them at 

In fact they should all close down since knives should only be bought and sold through BST at Japan prices. No point bringing them to the US/EU and introducing nice new knives to us all


----------



## fuzion (Jan 15, 2019)

Something that's a bit of a regression with the new forum is the seller is able to modify the post and remove the price after the knife's sold. Seeing more and more of them every day.


----------



## madelinez (Jan 15, 2019)

My 2 cents is that if you buy a knife from an external site and sell it here for more, there's no harm done. If you buy it from the BST section and then resell for a higher cost that's a lot worse because you're directly profiting off your community and adding nothing of value. KKF shouldn't be ebay, it should be a bunch of knife/cooking enthusiasts.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jan 15, 2019)

Long time lurker. Newish participant. I only had ONE really, really pleasant experience on BST (you know who you are! Thank you for being a gentleman). The rest of my purchases have been retail...

Speculators and rent seekers exist everywhere. I am not pleased with that reality but there is no point shouting into the wind. I suppose it is an inevitable consequence of a relatively free market.



fuzion said:


> Something that's a bit of a regression with the new forum is the seller is able to modify the post and remove the price after the knife's sold. Seeing more and more of them every day.



+1

I think if original postings on BST are required to include the price, pictures and are not editable, it would at least leave a permanent record of market trends. Actually perhaps even subsequent posts in a BST thread should be non-editable to preserve a record of the sale (e.g. price drops).

There is nothing to prevent private negotiation between buyer and seller if mates-rates want to be preserved 


I think the community's biggest role should be in 'policing' sellers who sell junk, fakes and dishonest listings. No one wants to receive a box of ****** rocks (unless they are superb jnats) or a rusty chipped knife when they were lead to believe otherwise. After that.... the relationship between price and value can be very individual judgements, particularly for rare items. Most people here seem pretty witty and smart - I think BST can handle a bit subjectivity but the community should try to stamp out blatant dishonesty...


----------



## kdeleon (Jan 15, 2019)

+1 on the suggestion to make the origin price and pictures permanent. This will help both buyers and sellers. For example, I saw a knife that I liked but someone else bought it. I went back to reference the cost so I would know what I should consider paying in the future, but the price and pictures were immediately removed after the sale completed. On the other side, I am considering selling a few of my knives. So I tried to go through the past sales to find a good starting price. But many of the old ads have had the prices removed. I would like to start off with a fair price but now I’m just guessing. I might be too low and lose some serious money or too high and get accused of gouging the system.


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 15, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> I agree with this. Flippers are just businessmen that make money at the *expense of both the craftsmen and the buyers*. The craftsmen deserve to be paid a good wage for their work. The buyers deserve to appreciate a good knife made by these craftsmen (and from the perspective of a craftsman, they would probably wish that their crafts can be appreciated by as many as will appreciate it). Flippers don't really deserve anything and offer *nothing in the value chain*. *Do they make anything?* Sure they do, they make things more expensive for the consumer.



At the risk of being called one-sided ...

1) If Korin hadn't sold the knife at under market value, it could not have been flipped in the first place. So at least when it comes to the craftsmen, Korin is more at fault for this situation. As is the craftsman himself, who most likely agreed to this promotion (or at least the company he works for ... where he might not even be paid per item but rather an hourly wage ... which would make it pointless for what the knife sells)

2) Adding nothing in the value chain is something that can be said to about any dealer and especially wholesaler. I know this is rather black and white and that vendors like Jon add services like impeccable quality control and such ... BUT most of the old folks around here remember the days when you were able to buy directly from Ashi Hamono ... and the difference in prices. And even THEN you somehow could argue that there are people in the value chain who add nothing, who make nothing ... because there sure as hell is administrative staff at Ashi ... Point is: If you want to take out any and all non-value-adding from the chain, you need to limit yourself to buying from one-man-shop custom makers like Robin, Ian Rogers, Butch etc. And you'd have to find a way of not paying VAT or other taxes (depending on country), because that sure as hell doesn't add any value (LOL .. just joking ...)


For the sake of transparency and because I've been accused of having "skin in the game": I've never sold a knife at a profit or purchased a knife with the intent of selling it right away. Nor do I like the idea of folks going to Korin (Or Supreme or apple store etc.) to buy an item just to sell it ... but then again: Everyone is free to get in line themselves, and no one has to buy the item. 

I think this almost boils down to criticizing a (somewhat) free market system itself and with that the fact that some people just have the money to not give a sh** and buy at any price.


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 15, 2019)

Everyone who criticizes Dave ...

Consider for a second the position he's in:

When he's doing a great job, no one really thanks him for it

When he's doing something people don't agree with, he's being attacked, often mercilessly 


I wouldn't wanna be in his shoes. I know he can be polarizing sometimes, but IMHO he's a good guy. I've met him in person and I can't say anything bad about him, to the contrary. 

He's entitled to an opinion, just like everybody else here. He's a member here, first and foremost. As long as he's not abusing his powers as a mod by deleting comments or banning folks who have arguments with him, he should be able to participate like anyone else.

I mean, honestly: Try to find a sucker who is willing to just be a moderator, not a participator ... and doing that for free. Good luck


----------



## Bert2368 (Jan 15, 2019)

Here we go, but the popcorn is usually overpriced at circuses. 



I've been an admin on a site with a section for members to buy, sell, swap or even give away equipment and supplies. This existed with the express statements that all transactions were between buyer and seller, site owner and admins had NOTHING TO DO with how your transactions might go.

It still turned into a circus several times per year, people would do crazy stuff, folks occasionally offered or requested downright illegal or just unethical to distribute things. It frequently took up way too much moderator/admin time and created more dissension and bad feelings between members than anything else.

Adam Smith was some kind of enlightenment era idealist, he did not describe how and WHY tradeing tends to work out in the real world. 

People are not well informed "rational" actors.

We are all too frequently just ignorant or crazy monkeys with fancy shoes and too many tools. 

In a closed system, the sharpest, least charitable and/or least ethical WILL end up with all the shekels in their corner, the repeated application of even a small % advantge from "loose ethics" = winning the long game. My mom said it best: "The turds will always float to the top of the punchbowl".


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 15, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> I think the community's biggest role should be in 'policing' sellers who sell junk, fakes and dishonest listings. No one wants to receive a box of ****** rocks (unless they are superb jnats) or a rusty chipped knife when they were lead to believe otherwise. After that.... the relationship between price and value can be very individual judgements, particularly for rare items. Most people here seem pretty witty and smart - I think BST can handle a bit subjectivity but the community should try to stamp out blatant dishonesty...



I think it's impossible for the forum to monitor and policing sellers or the BST. It's always being pointed out ... the market place is just provided as platform, nothing else.

If the forum (or rather it's admins and mods) would actively regulate the BST section they'd open a whole can of worms, legally as well ... they might be liable in case transaction go south. Can't touch that.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jan 15, 2019)

alterwisser said:


> I think it's impossible for the forum to monitor and policing sellers or the BST. It's always being pointed out ... the market place is just provided as platform, nothing else.
> 
> If the forum (or rather it's admins and mods) would actively regulate the BST section they'd open a whole can of worms, legally as well ... they might be liable in case transaction go south. Can't touch that.



For sure. 'Policing' is perhaps a poor choice of words. Nobody is paid to do so. Even if they were, it is not gratifying work. Lets face it... true customer protections are weak (to non-existent), particularly across international boarders. These sorts of markets hold a lot of risk for the buyer. If you want a silver lining, the 'good news' story here is how many honest and fair transactions take place. Surely it is the majority by a healthy margin (I sure hope so)!!?

By 'policing' I suppose I am referring to the statement (since it has been raised): "_Negative comments in sales threads are forbidden and will result in revocation of B/S/T forum privileges"_. Again... generally I think the principle of not using discussion to affect prices is reasonable. But when it comes to BST posts originating from people who are known to be selling bad goods - this is a case where I think 'negative' comments are fair game.


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 15, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> For sure. 'Policing' is perhaps a poor choice of words. Nobody is paid to do so. Even if they were, it is not gratifying work. Lets face it... true customer protections are weak (to non-existent), particularly across international boarders. These sorts of markets hold a lot of risk for the buyer. If you want a silver lining, the 'good news' story here is how many honest and fair transactions take place. Surely it is the majority by a healthy margin (I sure hope so)!!?
> 
> By 'policing' I suppose I am referring to the statement (since it has been raised): "_Negative comments in sales threads are forbidden and will result in revocation of B/S/T forum privileges"_. Again... generally I think the principle of not using discussion to affect prices is reasonable. But when it comes to BST posts originating from people who are known to be selling bad goods - this is a case where I think 'negative' comments are fair game.



I agree, customer protections are weak ... and getting weaker by the day with administrations in certain countries killing more of them by the minute ...

I generally trust people ... and I've been burned before. I tend to buy only from members that are very active and have been for a while ... but frankly, I have not bought much off BST (neither here nor other forums) recently. A lot of the transactions are going on behind the scenes anyway. If there's a knife that I am interested in I usually go hunt it down and ask owners directly if they're willing to sell it ...


----------



## brooksie967 (Jan 15, 2019)

I'll sell my three ashi for $20,000USD but only as a package deal.


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 15, 2019)

brooksie967 said:


> I'll sell my three ashi for $20,000USD but only as a package deal.



What else is in the package?


----------



## ecchef (Jan 15, 2019)

brooksie967 said:


> I'll sell my three ashi for $20,000USD but only as a package deal.


I'll go 20,000 JPY.


----------



## ecchef (Jan 15, 2019)

Duque said:


> DaveB - there is no excuse here - so just come out and apologise and say you were wrong - that’s all we expect .....no less no more


6 posts in nearly 3 years. If you did have a dog in this fight, it would only have one leg.


----------



## Xenif (Jan 15, 2019)

This thread needs some comic relief:


----------



## brooksie967 (Jan 15, 2019)

ecchef said:


> I'll go 20,000 JPY.


No ashi for you


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 15, 2019)

FS threads that get closed after a sale should be checked by the Mods and anything deleted (pics, price) should be restored, and the thread locked so it cannot be modified. More work for the Nods, but perhaps one or two more could be added to address this.


----------



## Cyrilix (Jan 15, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> So I guess Jon and Maxim, etc are all flippers then too. They buy the knives for cheapass prices in Japan then go back to US/EU and sell them for astronomically high prices. I demand BST knives be sold and bought at prices which the makers themselves priced them at
> 
> In fact they should all close down since knives should only be bought and sold through BST at Japan prices. No point bringing them to the US/EU and introducing nice new knives to us all



Not really. They provide PLENTY of value in the value chain. They set up direct relationships with the craftsmen so they can introduce us to their knives. They break down the language barriers between Western consumers and these craftsmen. They're also there to vet products and provide you with customer service, all things that I want as a consumer. Jon also has a store where you can hold and feel the goods before buying. This is nothing like a flipper.


----------



## Cyrilix (Jan 15, 2019)

alterwisser said:


> At the risk of being called one-sided ...
> 
> 1) If Korin hadn't sold the knife at under market value, it could not have been flipped in the first place. So at least when it comes to the craftsmen, Korin is more at fault for this situation. As is the craftsman himself, who most likely agreed to this promotion (or at least the company he works for ... where he might not even be paid per item but rather an hourly wage ... which would make it pointless for what the knife sells)
> 
> ...



I didn't criticize buyers. I also criticized your negative tone when it comes to alloeing people to post information that may be counter to the wishes of a flipper. The buyer can do what they want with that information, right? No need to stop the free flow of information at the seller's "conflict of interest filled" wishes.


----------



## Dhoff (Jan 15, 2019)

I sincerely hope this thread will die out soon. Nothing constructive seems to come out of it. Purely negative outcome.


----------



## lemeneid (Jan 15, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Not really. They provide PLENTY of value in the value chain. They set up direct relationships with the craftsmen so they can introduce us to their knives. They break down the language barriers between Western consumers and these craftsmen. They're also there to vet products and provide you with customer service, all things that I want as a consumer. Jon also has a store where you can hold and feel the goods before buying. This is nothing like a flipper.


Disagree. Aside from having a storefront or website, anyone could just as easily go to Japan, make relationships with the craftsmen and dealers, return with a couple of Ashis, Katos, Shigs et. al. and sell them for a handsome profit too. In fact, I believe some members here have gone and visited craftsmen like Watanabe, TF, etc... and have come back with nice customs and one-offs that I am sure would sell for a very tidy sum.

Nothing against retailers like Jon or Maxim, I think they've managed to find a way to turn their passion or hobby into a good source of income and we have benefited from their freely shared knowledge and experience. Think those who are butthurt probably did not spend enough time or effort in trying to make some side income from their hobby. Personally, if I could find a way to make some cash or make a living out of my hobby or past time, why not? It brings me joy and brings me cash.

So yes, people like Jon, Maxim, et. al. ARE FLIPPERS, they just do it more professionally.

Also, maybe sarcasm doesn't really translate well over the internet, but my previous post was absolutely meant in jest.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jan 15, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> They're also there to vet products and provide you with customer service, all things that I want as a consumer. Jon also has a store where you can hold and feel the goods before buying. This is nothing like a flipper.



Me thinks @lemeneid is being deliberately outrageous... But consumer law does cover trade at bricks and mortar stores. In some countries this can be quite strong... So you are right, it certainly derisks transactions.


----------



## Interapid101 (Jan 15, 2019)

Dhoff said:


> I sincerely hope this thread will die out soon. Nothing constructive seems to come out of it. Purely negative outcome.



My ignore list is happy with the outcome. Who knows how many years or bad transactions it would have taken to ID those users.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jan 15, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Also, maybe sarcasm doesn't really translate



Hehe... A few minutes too late. Yeah... careful now... this is literally a literal place!


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 15, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> I didn't criticize buyers. I also criticized your negative tone when it comes to alloeing people to post information that may be counter to the wishes of a flipper. The buyer can do what they want with that information, right? No need to stop the free flow of information at the seller's "conflict of interest filled" wishes.



I’m sorry, but show me where I didn’t allow others to post information?

I merely voiced my opinion, just like you did and are doing.

You call my tone negative because you don’t agree with what I state. I also don’t agree with what you say, but that’s ok. As @chinacats said, we’re all entitled to our opinions ...


----------



## Cyrilix (Jan 15, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Disagree. Aside from having a storefront or website, anyone could just as easily go to Japan, make relationships with the craftsmen and dealers, return with a couple of Ashis, Katos, Shigs et. al. and sell them for a handsome profit too. In fact, I believe some members here have gone and visited craftsmen like Watanabe, TF, etc... and have come back with nice customs and one-offs that I am sure would sell for a very tidy sum.
> 
> Nothing against retailers like Jon or Maxim, I think they've managed to find a way to turn their passion or hobby into a good source of income and we have benefited from their freely shared knowledge and experience. Think those who are butthurt probably did not spend enough time or effort in trying to make some side income from their hobby. Personally, if I could find a way to make some cash or make a living out of my hobby or past time, why not? It brings me joy and brings me cash.
> 
> ...



Alright, then go buy a plane ticket to Japan, spend the time to develop these relationships, test out the quality of product, and figure out the logistics and pricing. You're free to start your business, then deal with customer relationships.

I don't want to do any of that so I'll skip all that and just buy a good knife from a trusted source and I think most people would want to do the same. But, more power to Jon and Maxim. I appreciate what they do for me and the community.


----------



## Cyrilix (Jan 15, 2019)

alterwisser said:


> I’m sorry, but show me where I didn’t allow others to post information?
> 
> I merely voiced my opinion, just like you did and are doing.
> 
> You call my tone negative because you don’t agree with what I state. I also don’t agree with what you say, but that’s ok. As @chinacats said, we’re all entitled to our opinions ...



If that's the case then I'm probably wrong and assumed too much. You didn't explicitly say that information couldn't be shared. I simply felt it. My apologies.


----------



## lemeneid (Jan 15, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Alright, then go buy a plane ticket to Japan, spend the time to develop these relationships, test out the quality of product, and figure out the logistics and pricing. You're free to start your business, then deal with customer relationships.
> 
> I don't want to do any of that so I'll skip all that and just buy a good knife from a trusted source and I think most people would want to do the same. But, more power to Jon and Maxim. I appreciate what they do for me and the community.


As a matter of fact I have, just not for knives, but I do have some side income rolling in for me from Japan, so yes, I do travel to Japan frequently, at least once every two months to meet with my dealer and his supplier. We get outrageously drunk over yakitori and sake. I still visit the farms and factories where my products come from time to time to bring home to sell.

In fact I could do the same for knives, the areas I visit are mostly Kyoto and Shiga which is right beside Sakai, I could spend a few extra days to build relationships with knife makers and dealers too, but do I want to? Only if it does bring in more than what I do in Japan too.

Also, does it make a difference if you're buying on BST from a trusted member who happens to be a flipper???


Luftmensch said:


> Hehe... A few minutes too late. Yeah... careful now... this is literally a literal place!





Luftmensch said:


> Me thinks @lemeneid is being deliberately outrageous... But consumer law does cover trade at bricks and mortar stores. In some countries this can be quite strong... So you are right, it certainly derisks transactions.


Lol, I thought the smiley face would blow my cover there!


----------



## ian (Jan 15, 2019)

I think the reason people are complaining about flipping here is that historically, BST was more for selling used knives at a discount, rather than BNIB knives at a profit. (At least, this is what I understand second-hand. I’ve only been around here for a year and a bit.) It’s totally legitimate to be disappointed that the character of the forum has changed. 

The difference with Jon and Maksim is that they’re not putting knives on BST. They are retailers. They have websites. They are upfront about the services they offer, and we here appreciate these services. This has nothing to do with people starting to use the BST forum for a purpose other than what was intended.


----------



## Jkts (Jan 15, 2019)

Retailers add value- they bring new and vetted product to various cities and countries. They bring product that the average consumer can’t access. They pay taxes and they are bound by business laws and regulations. They do mark up, but if they charge too high, they can be undercut by competitors. 

Flippers take that same product and make it available to those who can afford more and less available to those with fewer resources. They don’t add to the market. Many of the folks here are line cooks and restaurant staff who love to have a great knives, and not large amounts of expendable income.

Using a liquor analogy, when was the last time you bought a bottle of pappy off the shelf at msrp (if you were so inclined). Liquor tasting used to be a community of folks who shared information and collectively enjoyed the pursuit of tasting great product. It devolved into status symbols, speculation, treasure hunting, and flipping. Over twenty years, you can’t buy the classic high end bourbons, unless you have connections and enough cash. 

The buying of hand crafted, limited production Japanese knives is going that way. While flippers contribute to that, the evolution of this niche market is inevitable. Lord help us if cooks illustrated or some other media ever made these knives more mainstream.


----------



## Andrew (Jan 15, 2019)

Jkts said:


> Retailers add value- they bring new and vetted product to various cities and countries. They bring product that the average consumer can’t access. They pay taxes and they are bound by business laws and regulations. They do mark up, but if they charge too high, they can be undercut by competitors.
> 
> Flippers take that same product and make it available to those who can afford more and less available to those with fewer resources. They don’t add to the market. Many of the folks here are line cooks and restaurant staff who love to have a great knives, and not large amounts of expendable income.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more with the above. 

I'm sure we've all observed this phenomenon in other areas, whiskey is a good example, collectible shoes, watches, high end cars, clothing, handbags, etc., etc., etc. It's not new to me...

I guess where I have issue is when someone buys something collectible only to sell it for a profit, essentially robbing other passionate fans of the opportunity to enjoy something without having to pay for your opportunity to get there first. I understand it's part and parcel of collecting in 2019, but it's still frustrating. I don't think the OP violated anything official, but it does impact my personal feelings about the actions and willingness to transact with folks like that in the future.

I'm somewhat concerned that social media is the driving force behind these situations, as we've become a much more show-off society as a result of social media, and it's unfortunately also much easier to figure out what are the highly desirable models/makes/etc based on all the media attention... It's a bummer, but I don't know if there's anything that can be done to really change things on a large scale.

I really appreciate this forum, the knowledge shared, experiences shared, and knives shared via BST. I don't post often, but I've checked the site almost daily for years. Thank you to all that make this place a really fun part of my digital life


----------



## panda (Jan 15, 2019)

If I ever end up putting a high value super rare knife up for grabs, I'm selling it at a fair price and going to do my own vetting process to see if they are a knife user or just a collector. I would want it to go to someone who normally wouldn't have the opprtunity to try one because they don't have a bunch of money to throw at by paying inflated prices to be able to skip the line.. people who would appreciate the knife deserve it more than those that would just stick it in a display or only want it as a means to make a quick buck.


----------



## MontezumaBoy (Jan 15, 2019)

I'm starting to get concerned that all of the "folks" posting here are actually just one person ... possibly even (dare I say it - daveB's) multiple personalities ... including yours truly (after all I know I have several ,,,)! The mind boggles at just the thought of it ...

Now how about some black Mole covered popcorn ...


----------



## Eloh (Jan 15, 2019)

I guess the flippers are more a symptom of too much collectors who drive up the prices for pro users. at least thats how i feel


----------



## alterwisser (Jan 15, 2019)

panda said:


> If I ever end up putting a high value super rare knife up for grabs, I'm selling it at a fair price and going to do my own vetting process to see if they are a knife user or just a collector. I would want it to go to someone who normally wouldn't have the opprtunity to try one because they don't have a bunch of money to throw at by paying inflated prices to be able to skip the line.. people who would appreciate the knife deserve it more than those that would just stick it in a display or only want it as a means to make a quick buck.



Absolutely +1

When I sell a really nice knife I want the right person to buy it. I also don’t have a problem taking less then the market value in that case ...


----------



## lemeneid (Jan 15, 2019)

Eloh said:


> I guess the flippers are more a symptom of too much collectors who drive up the prices for pro users. at least thats how i feel


This is partially true. I bet if the Ashi were used in any way, the price wouldn’t be that high. But at the same time, who would buy a beat up Ashi? That’s why most of these knives end up unused most of the time.

But asthetics aside, why would anyone buy an Ashi to use. Cutting-wise, there are better knives out there.


----------



## ashy2classy (Jan 15, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> This is partially true. I bet if the Ashi were used in any way, the price wouldn’t be that high. But at the same time, who would buy a beat up Ashi? That’s why most of these knives end up unused most of the time.
> 
> But asthetics aside, why would anyone buy an Ashi to use. Cutting-wise, there are better knives out there.



So you buy them for an investment or just because it's so rare and made by a legend? I don't get the concept of buying a knife to just look at or store away to sell later. If I spend thousands of dollars on a knife I'm gonna ****in use it! *SHRUG*


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 15, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Disagree. Aside from having a storefront or website, anyone could just as easily go to Japan, make relationships with the craftsmen and dealers, return with a couple of Ashis, Katos, Shigs et. al. and sell them for a handsome profit too. In fact, I believe some members here have gone and visited craftsmen like Watanabe, TF, etc... and have come back with nice customs and one-offs that I am sure would sell for a very tidy sum.
> 
> So yes, people like Jon, Maxim, et. al. ARE FLIPPERS, they just do it more professionally.


The last time I checked it wasn't free to fly to Japan, find places to eat and sleep, etc. Those are real costs that add to the initial cost of the goods.

As far as Jon and Maxim being flippers, that is an odd way of looking at two established retailers. They serve as importers and retailers, have real/ hard costs such as utility payments, rent payments (Jon)/ construction costs (Maxim), import duties, web sites, etc.

It is normal in the US for goods to sell at retail for 3 times the wholesale cost, due to all of the overhead and direct costs.

Maybe in a dream world we could all buy every single good and service we needed directly through the manufacturer, so no other costs are added other then processing/ shipping/ duties, but that is pretty impossible.

Heck, next time I go to a restaurant and I see them serving raw food (I'm looking at you, sushi restaurants), I will get on a soapbox and expose the restaurant for 'flipping' the food. Since they did not even cook it, there is no reason I should pay more for the food then they paid for it.


----------



## lemeneid (Jan 15, 2019)

ashy2classy said:


> So you buy them for an investment or just because it's so rare and made by a legend? I don't get the concept of buying a knife to just look at or store away to sell later. If I spend thousands of dollars on a knife I'm gonna ****in use it! *SHRUG*


Everyone has different goals in their hobbies, what can I say. Some collect, some flip, some use. There isn’t a right or wrong here, just pointing out that everything said here is a valid argument.


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 15, 2019)

MontezumaBoy said:


> Now how about some black Mole covered popcorn ...


Why on earth would you put moles on popcorn? Chipmunks are much cuter, and taste less like dirt.


----------



## Bodine (Jan 15, 2019)

This has been an interesting read. To me, a knife is a tool to be used. As for the collectors, let the market dictate the price, but posting under another name does not seem cool to me.


----------



## Edge (Jan 15, 2019)

Seems I'm going to have to carefully read this after just scanning it. Seems to be a very hot topic. I'm auditing the actual vendors to make sure the ones that are vendors have the badge. And I"ll have to look into this new flipper events happening in BST. I have to make sure those that are vendors/professionals have value for being one.


----------



## Nemo (Jan 15, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Not really. They provide PLENTY of value in the value chain. They set up direct relationships with the craftsmen so they can introduce us to their knives. They break down the language barriers between Western consumers and these craftsmen. They're also there to vet products and provide you with customer service, all things that I want as a consumer. Jon also has a store where you can hold and feel the goods before buying. This is nothing like a flipper.


The good vendors also guarantee their products and fix any problems a knife may have. This is quite a different business model to flipping.


----------



## Nemo (Jan 15, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Disagree. Aside from having a storefront or website, anyone could just as easily go to Japan, make relationships with the craftsmen and dealers, return with a couple of Ashis, Katos, Shigs et. al. and sell them for a handsome profit too. In fact, I believe some members here have gone and visited craftsmen like Watanabe, TF, etc... and have come back with nice customs and one-offs that I am sure would sell for a very tidy sum.
> 
> Nothing against retailers like Jon or Maxim, I think they've managed to find a way to turn their passion or hobby into a good source of income and we have benefited from their freely shared knowledge and experience. Think those who are butthurt probably did not spend enough time or effort in trying to make some side income from their hobby. Personally, if I could find a way to make some cash or make a living out of my hobby or past time, why not? It brings me joy and brings me cash.
> 
> ...


Storefront, websites, building up relationships, skills and knowledge, pre and after sales service... etc... these are things that take time, effort and money and therefore are adding value to the chain.

Sure I could learn to speak Japanese fluently (and develop an adequately deep understanding of Japanese culture), go to Japan, build relationships with knifemakers, curate the knives that I think will work well in my market (and maybe take the risk of sometimes getting it wrong), invest tens or hundreds of thousands in placing large orders, develop excellent sharpening skills, set up a website and a shop. Then I still have to employ skilled staff (or invest in training them), provide excellent pre and post sales service including warranties and fixing any problem knives.

The only problem is that I've now invested years of my life and six or seven figures in my business. This is value adding and it's what flippers don't do.


----------

