# Major Mizuno Increase



## Customfan (Jun 16, 2017)

Did anyone happen to catch the Mizuno Tanrejo increase? Starting in June. :bigeek:

Honyaki white 240mm Gyuto went up I believe from $720 to $954... so did blue #2 (DX) big time to $1,350

Was it across the board?

Does anyone know if the Hontaren, Hon Kasumi, etc. series increased as well?


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## Silky (Jun 16, 2017)

Customfan said:


> Did anyone happen to catch the Mizuno Tanrejo increase? Starting in June. :bigeek:
> 
> Honyaki white 240mm Gyuto went up I believe from $720 to $954... so did blue #2 (DX) big time to $1,350
> 
> ...



It seems like it definitely hit most of the gyuto as everything except the suminagashi and maybe the stainless gyuto are now much more expensive. The only thing I can remember other than gyuto are the petty and swedish sujihiki which are roughly the same price if not the same. But, I remember the 300mm hontanren gyuto being around $400 last I checked and now it's over $600.


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## Customfan (Jun 16, 2017)

Thats without any of the fancy stuff.... octagonal, ebonywood handles, etc.


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## osakajoe (Jun 16, 2017)

Steel prices have gone up the past few years. What most of you guys don't take into account is that most makers do not buy steel weekly or monthly. When they buy they buy a lot. Can last a few months or even years depending on demand. 

So if steel prices went up last year and just now seeing price increase probably because they had to purchase a new stockpile of steel. You were paying prices that are years back and just now caught up. 

Also simple supply and demand. Demand is high now. 

From the business aspect, remember muzuno goes through sub contractors who have probably had one of the above happen. So their price increases to mizuno thus increasing more to you if they are still trying to keep the same margins


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## wind88 (Jun 16, 2017)

Now the white#2 Mizuno is almost the double of Hiromoto white #2....I wonder if we will see a similar price hike with other makers.


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## Silky (Jun 16, 2017)

osakajoe said:


> Steel prices have gone up the past few years. What most of you guys don't take into account is that most makers do not buy steel weekly or monthly. When they buy they buy a lot. Can last a few months or even years depending on demand.
> 
> So if steel prices went up last year and just now seeing price increase probably because they had to purchase a new stockpile of steel. You were paying prices that are years back and just now caught up.
> 
> ...



This makes sense. From my talks with Iwahara-san, I've noticed that his prices from JCK were lower than the direct prices from Mizuno Tanrenjo's website. He mentioned that this wasn't a mistake, but maybe now he has run out of stock on some knives and is raising the prices to reflect the new buying prices.


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## inzite (Jun 16, 2017)

wind88 said:


> Now the white#2 Mizuno is almost the double of Hiromoto white #2....I wonder if we will see a similar price hike with other makers.



should have gotten that 270 blue 2 at the old prices LOL zomg. But i love my Denka so i guess I don't need blue LOL. Hiromoto white 2 is good balance, not chippy but hard enough.


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## wind88 (Jun 16, 2017)

Last week when i free up some funds I started looking at the Mizuno white #2 honyaki that I have been eyeing forever.

Totally shocked by the new price :scared4:


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## inzite (Jun 16, 2017)

wind88 said:


> Last week when i free up some funds I started looking at the Mizuno white #2 honyaki that I have been eyeing forever.
> 
> Totally shocked by the new price :scared4:



i say go blue 2 and be done with it LOL.


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## inzite (Jun 16, 2017)

wind88 said:


> Now the white#2 Mizuno is almost the double of Hiromoto white #2....I wonder if we will see a similar price hike with other makers.



forgot to remention, hiromoto white #2 are great value for the steel you get, the grind is consistent but slightly thicker behind the edge than other honyaki offering esp if you go with the 270mm but i love the profile and the steel itself.


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## Customfan (Jun 16, 2017)

wind88 said:


> Now the white#2 Mizuno is almost the double of Hiromoto white #2....I wonder if we will see a similar price hike with other makers.



It only makes sense, if its a materials availability related hike. Interesting though is that it was upwards of 25%. 

Love my other "H" but there is still something about Mizuno that does it for me


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## Silky (Jun 17, 2017)

I hope Koki Iwahara doesn't mind my saying this. He mentioned in a recent email with me that he has had to increase the prices of new stock knives starting from June 1st of this year. This is due to several factors including the increase in metal and labor prices that Osaka Joe mentioned. So, knives JCK has from the old stock will be sold at old prices, but once those stocks run out, the new price will kick in on different lines most likely.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 17, 2017)

It's not just mizuno it's across the board! The golden age for Japanese knives is over. Happy I got all mine when I did because there is no way I could afford them now and probably would never buy them at today's prices. Obviously it's supply driven because of popularity but looking at knives that in 2012 or 2013 were half price of what today's prices are it's kinda nutty.


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## panda (Jun 17, 2017)

it's still priced less than other honyaki, and his stuff is primo so whatever.


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## Anton (Jun 17, 2017)

Chicagohawkie said:


> It's not just mizuno it's across the board! The golden age for Japanese knives is over. Happy I got all mine when I did because there is no way I could afford them now and probably would never buy them at today's prices. Obviously it's supply driven because of popularity but looking at knives that in 2012 or 2013 were half price of what today's prices are it's kinda nutty.



Nutty indeed but perhaps a long time coming.


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## osakajoe (Jun 18, 2017)

Chicagohawkie said:


> It's not just mizuno it's across the board! The golden age for Japanese knives is over. Happy I got all mine when I did because there is no way I could afford them now and probably would never buy them at today's prices. Obviously it's supply driven because of popularity but looking at knives that in 2012 or 2013 were half price of what today's prices are it's kinda nutty.



I wouldn't say over I'd say the time of wholesalers ripping off the craftsmen is over. Too long have they forced craftsmen to work hard for little but now they are finally getting the respect and price increases they deserve. Golden age has just started. Now you'll start to see the ones who make good quality knives start to Shine and last.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 18, 2017)

osakajoe said:


> I wouldn't say over I'd say the time of wholesalers ripping off the craftsmen is over. Too long have they forced craftsmen to work hard for little but now they are finally getting the respect and price increases they deserve. Golden age has just started. Now you'll start to see the ones who make good quality knives start to Shine and last.



Interesting? Can you provide any examples of this logic? Years and years ago one could contact direct knife makers and custom order knives now we have an almost channel approach. Retailers mark up in USA is typically 100 percent. Some more some less.


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## JBroida (Jun 19, 2017)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Interesting? Can you provide any examples of this logic? Years and years ago one could contact direct knife makers and custom order knives now we have an almost channel approach. Retailers mark up in USA is typically 100 percent. Some more some less.



actually, in most of japan, years and years ago, it was even more difficult to contact craftsmen directly... a much smaller percentage of them were open to the idea of this. The wholesales had even more power back then, and the way of doing business for knifemaking in japan has long been a system in which the wholesalers have the most power. Its pretty well know in Japan. When you were starting to see makers open up some years back... that was the beginning of this change. What i see in Japan supports what Joe said 100%.


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## osakajoe (Jun 19, 2017)

Not logic it's the business structure. Jon said it better than I could. Take his word or mine. We both work in the industry and he's been at it for awhile now. I'm in Sakai 2 or 3 times a week training now. So I have my eyes open and eat to the ground. A lot of those big names too are actually not makers. You get a lot of people misunderstanding the wholesalers as makers by their marketing and business structure.


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## Nemo (Jun 19, 2017)

IIRC, Jon did mention quite a few months ago that industry wide price increases were likely on the way.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 19, 2017)

Given that one could buy a piece of shirogami. probably big enough for a small sword. retail . in europe. for 30 bucks. (https://www.dictum.com/de/materiali...r-papierstahl-aus-japan?ftr=_11__98.5_1_12_12)

...and that I wouldn't assume a wholesale customer inside japan would have to pay even a fraction of that price ...

...can materials price really be that significant in the equation, unless we are talking some really low yield knives (eg, you assume 3 out of 4 blades will be complete, unsalvageable scrap)?


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## osakajoe (Jun 19, 2017)

Congratulations you just bought yourself a piece of steel. Now what are you going to do with it?? Why buy a Mona lisa if I can buy a blank canvas paint and a brush?

Now factor the hours spent forging, heat treating, and sharpening. Then factor the cost of tools involved and bills to pay. Believe me this is not easy work and is exhausting but takes years of learning the trade to make anything decent. 

Now you have a blade. Factor cost of engraving, handle materials and cost of putting it on. Now factor cost of box. 

Now you haven't even made any money off it yet. Now factor the cost for you to turn a slight profit and make it worth your while.

This is considering you work alone and don't have staff wages to pay. Or aren't charging a premium since you are not a master craftsmen and can expect to charge accordingly. 

If craftsmen are just scraping by and not really making any money that's how you kill a craft. They won't invest anytime in the next generation and what has happened to a lot of knife families in Japan. 

Going back to the previous page of what Jon clearly said. Think of your now finished product and how much you'd sell it for. Well you're the maker and anything you sell is a direct sale. Hasn't even gone to a seller yet.


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## JBroida (Jun 19, 2017)

Yeah... material cost increases are just a small part of this... there is much more going on with regard to the increase in price. For what its worth, material cost is rarely the largest part of the cost of a knife... its is often dwarfed by labor cost (i.e. time spent and skill level/reputation of the cratfsmen working on the item).


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 19, 2017)

Perhaps someone can for the sake of understanding can provide a rudimentary flow chart of costs from forging to retail purchase. So we can understand the recent insane increase of costs? It's one thing to talk about and it's another to back the talk up with examples. It's now like the cost of gas going from 2.50 to 5.00 a gallon with the price of the crude remaining the same. I for one would like to know the ecomomic side of this, not just trying to shake the tree, as these increases have kept me from buying anything like I used to.


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## JBroida (Jun 19, 2017)

the gist of it is rather simple... relative to the wholesalers, the salaries of the craftsmen were stagnant for years and the wage disparity grew significantly. This is a reflection of the craftsmen's wages moving up instead of being relatively stagnant as they have been for many years (well before you began buying japanese knives).


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 19, 2017)

JBroida said:


> the gist of it is rather simple... relative to the wholesalers, the salaries of the craftsmen were stagnant for years and the wage disparity grew significantly. This is a reflection of the craftsmen's wages moving up instead of being relatively stagnant as they have been for many years (well before you began buying japanese knives).



Interesting Jon.
Why is it then, the direct to the public knife houses are relatively unchanged and the channel knives have increased massively. Moritaka and Fujiwara knives are examples of this. I just saw a konosuke KU white 2 knife with a chestnut handle being sold at 550 bucks! Twice as much as a Fujiyama!


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## JBroida (Jun 19, 2017)

neither of them are in major knife making regions effected by this change... you will see this change in places with blacksmith and sharpener associations like sakai, seki, sanjo, and echizen. As i mentioned before, material costs are not really the big factor... wages for the craftsmen are. The direct to consumer places have control over what they get paid, and are marking up their knives as they would if they were a wholesaler too. Craftsmen in places like sakai do not have the same level of control over pricing. As the craftsmen raise prices, that gets passed along to the wholesalers (for those who use them... and somtimes multiple wholesalers in some cases), and then on to the consumer.

In essence, your comparison is like saying you bought a table from a guy who makes tables for such and such a price, and his price hasnt changed as much as buying from crate and barrell, which is effected by changes in minimim wages, livabale wages required, tax changes, rent changes, supplier price increases, etc., much more than that woodworker you bought from. In this example (when compared to the knife world), the supplier was selling at roughly the same price to crate and barrell for many years, but crate and barrell continued to raise priced. Now the supplier is raising prices again, in a much more significant way (imagine guys making $8 per hour now making $15-16 per hour for their work making the items), and that cost is getting passed along to the consumer at the end of the day. Does that make more sense of it?


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 20, 2017)

I get this is a very specialized industry with fewer and fewer elder tradesman, but I seriously doubt that their pay has risen 50 percent in a few years.


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## JBroida (Jun 20, 2017)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I get this is a very specialized industry with fewer and fewer elder tradesman, but I seriously doubt that their pay has risen 50 percent in a few years.



i think you're missing the point of what i was saying here... it was an example... not a specific figure


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## SatoShin (Jun 20, 2017)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I get this is a very specialized industry with fewer and fewer elder tradesman, but I seriously doubt that their pay has risen 50 percent in a few years.



i live in Japan and sometimes have chances to see knife making cities. There are always people talking about how tonya (maybe what you call wholesaler) have fancy houses, fancy cars, fancy offices, and make lots of money, but craftsmen suffer. Many people are trying to make this more equal. In tradition, tonya had a job to take care of and support craftsmen... they deal with customers, help organize, and keep craftsmen busy with work, and craftsmen produce for them. In good times, they order a lot, and in bad times they still try to order to make sure everyone can survive together. They used to spend money to help bring young craftsmen and make sure everyone has good training. In more recent times, tonya have continued to make a lot of money, but craftsmen are not being taken care of. Only recently craftsmen are starting to ask for more. They invest in future. Some tonya are doing same, but not all. In sakai, it is easy to see. In sanjo still you can see. In seki it is hard to see. For example, in Sakai, you can see new Jikko Hamono or Konosuke workshop and president house, but also how craftsmen live. Is very different.


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## fujiyama (Jun 20, 2017)

Whatever.. I'm pumped for a honyaki. 

Eventually prices will stabilize. It didn't stop people from buying Konosuke, Kato or Shigefusa.. it won't stop people from buying Mizuno. The price of everything has risen over the years.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 20, 2017)

I'm all for the craftsmen making the money, unfortunately my salary has not risen 50 percent in a few short years. So I will sit back and view from a far the new kono KU knives selling for 550 bucks and stamped HD blades that are selling For 400+ dollars now. Well, hope to get maybe a couple nice ones year now, far cry from the 4 or 5 a month in years past.


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## Customfan (Jun 20, 2017)

SatoShin said:


> i live in Japan and sometimes have chances to see knife making cities. There are always people talking about how tonya (maybe what you call wholesaler) have fancy houses, fancy cars, fancy offices, and make lots of money, but craftsmen suffer. Many people are trying to make this more equal. In tradition, tonya had a job to take care of and support craftsmen... they deal with customers, help organize, and keep craftsmen busy with work, and craftsmen produce for them. In good times, they order a lot, and in bad times they still try to order to make sure everyone can survive together. They used to spend money to help bring young craftsmen and make sure everyone has good training. In more recent times, tonya have continued to make a lot of money, but craftsmen are not being taken care of. Only recently craftsmen are starting to ask for more. They invest in future. Some tonya are doing same, but not all. In sakai, it is easy to see. In sanjo still you can see. In seki it is hard to see. For example, in Sakai, you can see new Jikko Hamono or Konosuke workshop and president house, but also how craftsmen live. Is very different.



Very interesting, thanks for the insight! There is obviously a lot of in-depth knowledge of the market...

I agree, a lot/batch outage together with a long overdue increase could explain it, but....

There are a couple of factors that IMHO have a bearing maybe even further than material costs as stated previously, since that factor alone can only account for a percentage of the increse...

a) The internal availability of work force of trained craftsmen available as time passes.
b) Organized workforce dynamics such as wage demands. :happymug:
c) Geographic localization of craftsman. As stated. How artisans organize and produce knives, this has evolved somewhat and is different from region to region.
d) Supply and demand. Brand recognition of brands such as Konosuke seem to increase demand, price ¨levels¨ the gap generated between limited availability and increase in aggregate demand generated by surges internally and abroad. Shigefusa or Kato are a good example of this phenomenon! :spiteful:
e) Aggregate pull when enough brands/artisans perceive an increase. The whole industry (Or at least a large part) seems to follow through. Bandwagon effect! :scratchhead:
f) Supply chain, basically how vertically integrated is it? Has to do with bargaining power and specialization.:scared4: 
g) Panic purchasses of Knife-nuts! :wink: I'm willing to bet forums such as this DO have an impact, it depends on elasticity of demand at a given time wether the impact is large or small.
h) Size and internal average structure of workshops, relationship with wholesalers and change in bargaining power. 

Interesting discussion! :idea2:


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## labor of love (Jun 20, 2017)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I'm all for the craftsmen making the money, unfortunately my salary has not risen 50 percent in a few short years. So I will sit back and view from a far the new kono KU knives selling for 550 bucks and stamped HD blades that are selling For 400+ dollars now. Well, hope to get maybe a couple nice ones year now, far cry from the 4 or 5 a month in years past.



I hope lots of people think the way you do. Maybe the knives I want to purchase can actually stay in stock(probably not gonna happen).


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## Godslayer (Jun 20, 2017)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I'm all for the craftsmen making the money, unfortunately my salary has not risen 50 percent in a few short years. So I will sit back and view from a far the new kono KU knives selling for 550 bucks and stamped HD blades that are selling For 400+ dollars now. Well, hope to get maybe a couple nice ones year now, far cry from the 4 or 5 a month in years past.



Konosuke is good at marketing and greedy in general in my honest opinion. They know their proucts will sell and capitalize on that fact. A HD is worth $200 max unless your getting captain fancy pants saya and handle. I mean ffs you can get a honyaki with a decent polish for what they want for a standard ku blade with a **** handle.


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## ynot1985 (Jun 20, 2017)

I know prices have risen but I just I'm happy to pay if I know the maker gets their rightful share of the pie... for those who got them for cheaper years ago, consider yourself lucky I guess. I rather see the art and skill of knifemaking continue on.


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## pkjames (Jun 20, 2017)

This is a very interesting topic, Jon & Joe have explained this issue much better than I could. Another trend is that, many craftsmen are now taking the pricing into their own hands and trying to market their own brand rather than just working for wholesalers. The industry is changing rapidly as well.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 20, 2017)

@osakajoe What I was questioning was the claim that the price increase was due to an increase in steel price. I wasn't discounting the work of the maker/smith at all!


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## brooksie967 (Jun 20, 2017)

Very interesting guys. Thanks for the insight into the industry.


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## GorillaGrunt (Jun 20, 2017)

I know I don't understand all of it, but I'd like to. By wholesalers as opposed to direct selling knife houses, would the first category include e.g. Sakai Takayuki, Misono, Masamoto, etc. and the second include e.g. Tanaka, Takeda, Shigefusa, Watanabe, etc.? And so is Mizuno then one of the former?

I'm not asking for an exhaustive list, but the sort of thing that confuses me a little is, for example, Akifusa. Would that fall into the latter category, because they're all made and sold by Yoshikazu Ikeda ('s shop)?


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## SatoShin (Jun 20, 2017)

Godslayer said:


> Konosuke is good at marketing and greedy in general in my honest opinion. They know their proucts will sell and capitalize on that fact. A HD is worth $200 max unless your getting captain fancy pants saya and handle. I mean ffs you can get a honyaki with a decent polish for what they want for a standard ku blade with a **** handle.



i am not trying to say all of this about konosuke... only to share more about how systems work in places like sakai


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## SatoShin (Jun 20, 2017)

GorillaGrunt said:


> I know I don't understand all of it, but I'd like to. By wholesalers as opposed to direct selling knife houses, would the first category include e.g. Sakai Takayuki, Misono, Masamoto, etc. and the second include e.g. Tanaka, Takeda, Shigefusa, Watanabe, etc.? And so is Mizuno then one of the former?
> 
> I'm not asking for an exhaustive list, but the sort of thing that confuses me a little is, for example, Akifusa. Would that fall into the latter category, because they're all made and sold by Yoshikazu Ikeda ('s shop)?



Mizuno is more like a wholesaler than a craftsman, but there is much talking about how they seem more like a craftsman to people not from sakai. Also, I have not heard of Ikeda-san making akifusa brand. He is just blacksmith... maybe this is misunderstanding?


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## Anton (Jun 20, 2017)

SatoShin said:


> Mizuno is more like a wholesaler than a craftsman, but there is much talking about how they seem more like a craftsman to people not from sakai. Also, I have not heard of Ikeda-san making akifusa brand. He is just blacksmith... maybe this is misunderstanding?



this IS interesting, care to elaborate further?


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## Dave Martell (Jun 20, 2017)

When I was approached, years ago, by Japanese wholesalers looking to have me sell Japanese knives I was shocked (yes- shocked!) to learn of the mark ups I could charge. I inquired a bit about the pricing scheme and was told more or less what I should charge and not to question this. The idea was that the product pricing should be supported (I suppose like MSRP?) and that everyone in the chain was making money. I could clearly see that if I was making say $100 on a $300 knife that the maker was making just about nothing because the wholesaler was also making something, what's left for the craftsman? 

On a slightly related topic, there are some shady retailers taking advantage of US knifemakers too. No risk (to the retailer) consignment sales where the maker gives up $200+ to the retailer? Screw that! If I need $550 to barely make anything and I have to give a retailer $200 of that, I'd sink instantly. Maybe if I could pump out a volume or I needed their presence to market my goods it might make sense but for most of us that's just taking a hosing.


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## Godslayer (Jun 20, 2017)

Dave Martell said:


> When I was approached, years ago, by Japanese wholesalers looking to have me sell Japanese knives I was shocked (yes- shocked!) to learn of the mark ups I could charge. I inquired a bit about the pricing scheme and was told more or less what I should charge and not to question this. The idea was that the product pricing should be supported (I suppose like MSRP?) and that everyone in the chain was making money. I could clearly see that if I was making say $100 on a $300 knife that the maker was making just about nothing because the wholesaler was also making something, what's left for the craftsman?
> 
> On a slightly related topic, there are some shady retailers taking advantage of US knifemakers too. No risk (to the retailer) consignment sales where the maker gives up $200+ to the retailer? Screw that! If I need $550 to barely make anything and I have to give a retailer $200 of that, I'd sink instantly. Maybe if I could pump out a volume or I needed their presence to market my goods it might make sense but for most of us that's just taking a hosing.



It's true, I recently started dabbling with wholesalers in japan I could commission blades for hundreds upon hundreds of dollars cheaper than off the shelf from various us merchants, i.e. I actually sent the wholesaler a link to a us vendors website and asked how much to get that exact blade but with custom specs and found out I could save over $600 usd on the knife, literally same maker, same materials(actually I wanted a slightly taller blade, so more materials). I'm positive most japanese smiths are making minimal profits even with their insane output, I know a few smiths have started selling the blades directly to the end user which I am sure helps them greatly.


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## Ruso (Jun 20, 2017)

This thread is great. It's nice to see how things work in Japan.
I wonder if western sellers who work directly with the smiths have lesser markup or share more profit with the craftsmen?


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## labor of love (Jun 20, 2017)

Ruso said:


> This thread is great. It's nice to see how things work in Japan.
> I wonder if western sellers who work directly with the smiths have lesser markup or share more profit with the craftsmen?



I was wondering the same.


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## pete84 (Jun 20, 2017)

What is almost shocking about this thread is the way it portrays how much of a revelation retail mark-ups are for the average person.

Mark-ups in the multiples (not percentages over original price mind you, I'm talking multipliers of the original cost) are commonplace throughout all of commercial sales interactions that occur today in all major industries. Especially consumer industries.

A good example is apparel, it is a 3-10x multiplier. A t-shirt, for example, might cost $1.50 to produce and ship from Mexico. That same shirt retails for $15-20 and many Americans gladly pay it (usually because it says something inane like "Nike" or "Volcom" on it) (Speaking from experience here, I was in the industry many years ago and members of my family still are - manufacturing and sales.)

This is EXTREMELY commonplace. In fact, it is the norm. This mark-up is the _very basis_ of capitalist society. Why do you think Karl Marx was so against it?

This is akin to corn farmers today making so little on the crop they barely make enough for their mortgage and pickup truck payments while Monsanto and Archer Daniels Midland make BILLIONS a year in profit.
---------------------------

Many, many people feel this is injustice. I agree (for the most part).

The past is history, but the question remains - what can we do now to ameliorate the situation?

I respect the approach of vendors like James of Knivesandstones - transparency regarding their sources, customized specs for "knuts" that specialize for a target customer and a reasonable mark-up that sustains business while being sustainable for the vendor/supplier/maker. 

I have high hopes. No doubt craftsmen deserve a much larger "slice of the pie" and hopefully their status and condition improves.


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## JBroida (Jun 20, 2017)

I've always tried to be upfront with what I can, but people have a tough time wrapping their heads around the idea that craftsmen often ask us to to mention their names or anything about them, because it messes with their wholesalers who are still and will likely continue to be their major source of income


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## Anton (Jun 20, 2017)

This has been the maker/wholesale/retailer story for hundreds of years, across most industries. 

It's a full supply chain based on demand 
All the way to you as a consumer 
The skill set of a craftsman is not to market, a store front needs the craftsman and they all need tour dollars, there are tons of pieces to the whole supply chain.
And most everyone is out to make a buck but I'm fairly sure not one is making a killing with knives 

But I guess it's good to reward good craftsman and good retailers. An equal plain field? Hardly, don't know of many these days.

I'll tell you one thing, in my line of business, outsourcing and consulting, I've not run into many retailers that actually care about craftsman the way some of our Knife retailers do, most of them on this thread... there are others out there who don't care and just want to get a little richer at your expense 

My opinions.


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## GorillaGrunt (Jun 20, 2017)

SatoShin said:


> Mizuno is more like a wholesaler than a craftsman, but there is much talking about how they seem more like a craftsman to people not from sakai. Also, I have not heard of Ikeda-san making akifusa brand. He is just blacksmith... maybe this is misunderstanding?



Probably my misunderstanding. So Akifusa is the brand (and Haruyuki and Artisan) and Ikeda-san is the smith, but he does not own the brand - they are separate entities?


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## JBroida (Jun 21, 2017)

I think you're getting confused... Ikeda-san is a blacksmith that has nothing to do with the brand Akifusa or the company who owns that brand (and also happens to share the same name as the blacksmith). Different companies alltogether. He may sell knives to those guys for some of their lines, but he is not a part of the company. Does that make sense?


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 21, 2017)

It's been said that there is major change going on in the way things are done in this arena. Perhaps there can be a way the the craftsman can unite and work together at say an etsy level where they can control their production and offer their own brands at reasonable prices without the channel effect. Wishful thinking I'm sure, but after all this is a world market that all can enter. If Kato were to offer to the public his own offerings I'm sure he'd be just as well off. After all it's what all the custom makers are doing.


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## Silky (Jun 21, 2017)

I'm interested to see how things are going to change in the future. One thing I wonder about is how going it alone would affect the craftsman's standing in their own communities. Japan tends to be very communal and I'd imagine places like Sakai can be even more so with smiths working directly and forming relationships with other sharpeners and whole-sellers. Would trying to strike out alone blacklist a smith from the community or negatively affect their standing? Would being an established and respected member of the community make it harder or easier than a younger craftsman? For swordsmith's like Kato, do the knives and swords go through different channels and does one have much influence on the other? Just some questions I'd be curious to hear the answers to.


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## dwalker (Jun 21, 2017)

Chicagohawkie said:


> It's been said that there is major change going on in the way things are done in this arena. Perhaps there can be a way the the craftsman can unite and work together at say an etsy level where they can control their production and offer their own brands at reasonable prices without the channel effect. Wishful thinking I'm sure, but after all this is a world market that all can enter. If Kato were to offer to the public his own offerings I'm sure he'd be just as well off. After all it's what all the custom makers are doing.



While I agree with everything you said here, I would like to point what seems obvious to me. The craftsmen can do business however they choose. There is a perception that they are taken advantage of in this industry. These are smart men and women, not uneducated peasants or indentured servants with no access to the internet. I, too, am a craftsmen on a similar scale. I have three people, including myself, that are directly involved in production of product. If I was dealing with a few wholesalers, (which I do), and not the general public, this would be enough. As it is, 70% of my sales is direct to the consumer. As a result, I must employ 3 more for duties unrelated to production. These people handle marketing, sales, customer contact, shipping and receiving, etc. If my wholesalers could keep me busy, it would be a no-brainer what i would do. The wholesaler and retailer is doing more than just slapping a higher price tag on a knife and sending it along to the next guy. They are doing the marketing, sales, customer contact and support, etc, just not under the same roof. Without them, it is very likely you would have never heard of Kato. Some blacksmiths choose to deal direct with the end user like Watanabe and TF, but nobody is forcing it. I can tell you that I have purchased a Watanabe direct and a Toyama through a retailer. They were for all intents and purposes exactly the same knife. I paid more for the Wat even though JNS got a piece of the Toyama. Don't think that if the craftsmen sold direct to individuals that you could get the wholesale price. I know one of the posters on this thread did just that, but if everyone did it, it would not last long. The maker simply couldn't afford it. It takes WAY more resources in dealing with 100 different customers and packing 100 individual boxes than having 1 customer and packing 100 knives into 1 box. 

Of course, i could be wrong about all of this...i just know how it works for me.


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## GorillaGrunt (Jun 21, 2017)

JBroida said:


> I think you're getting confused... Ikeda-san is a blacksmith that has nothing to do with the brand Akifusa or the company who owns that brand (and also happens to share the same name as the blacksmith). Different companies alltogether. He may sell knives to those guys for some of their lines, but he is not a part of the company. Does that make sense?



Ahhhh, so that Ikeda is a completely different Ikeda, and that Ikeda is the company, not a person?


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