# Culinary school necessary?



## thisisputt (May 9, 2016)

Would culinary school be necessary if you're aiming to be a cook or a chef?
I'm not sure on the answer of this question so I thought maybe you guys could help me get an answer. 
Also would it be better if getting a bachelor degree in a university before going to a culinary school?

Thanks for the help


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## Pensacola Tiger (May 9, 2016)

I'm just a civilian, but from what I've read on this forum, experience is key, rather than education.


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## spoiledbroth (May 9, 2016)

Most of the chefs I know turn their noses up at the idea of going to school, lucky peach did a good article about this recently you can find it online.


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## fujiyama (May 9, 2016)

No, you don't need culinary school. You need experience in real kitchens. You also need to know that this is what you want before spending thousands on education. The key is to learn outside of work as well as inside. Get a few good books and read them, familiarize yourself with the terms and fundamentals. Watch videos. Don't get stuck in a position where you don't learn from your chef or job. If you have the money, I suggest traveling the world and working in many restaurants. Food varies greatly, and no two kitchens are the same. 

My corporate chef had no culinary education, and was hired by a very respected CCC (Certified Chef de Cuisine.. a Canadian thing?). I've met chefs who had never gone to school, and many who did but suggested I didn't. It's also true that many cooks laugh at those who "wasted" money on school.

There's much more to being a chef then I once thought as a kid growing up. No more bottled salad dressings. No more canned soups. It's time to learn it all from scratch. Fillet fish, butcher meat, make dough for everything from bread to pasta. It's a life long journey. Never become discouraged and always keep learning. The naturals will rise to the top, with or without education. You need heart.


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 9, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Most of the chefs I know turn their noses up at the idea of going to school, lucky peach did a good article about this recently you can find it online.



Here is a link to the article: http://luckypeach.com/should-you-go-to-culinary-school/

Interesting read.


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## thisisputt (May 9, 2016)

Thanks guys!


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## spoiledbroth (May 11, 2016)

Even more interesting how per se got dragged through the mud shortly after the article was written! Seems to offer a very decent base salary tho.


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 11, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Even more interesting how per se got dragged through the mud shortly after the article was written!



By who?


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## bkultra (May 11, 2016)

Johnny.B.Good said:


> By who?



NY Times food critic Pete Wells

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/13/dining/pete-wells-per-se-review.html?_r=0


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## brainsausage (May 11, 2016)

Culinary school is a rip off. Rather than paying a school to learn how to work at a soul crushing corporate joint- Start at the bottom at a decent restaurant, that's willing to teach you, and you'll get paid to learn.


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 11, 2016)

bkultra said:


> NY Times food critic Pete Wells
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/13/dining/pete-wells-per-se-review.html?_r=0



Ouch.


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## lobby (May 11, 2016)

Johnny.B.Good said:


> Ouch.



"I dont know what could have saved limp, dispiriting yam dumplings, but it definitely wasnt a lukewarm matsutake mushroom bouillon as murky and appealing as bong water."
burn


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## spoiledbroth (May 12, 2016)

One would think they would be doing French cuisine. That particular dish sounds distinctly Japanese to me, though there is some kind of "matsutake" that grows in North America I don't think the flavour is the same as the Japanese variety.


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## chefboyardee (May 12, 2016)

When I decided to pursue cooking as an occupation, I spent 1990-91 in France. I worked for free at Au Crocodile and L'auberge de l'ile, both 3 star Michelin restaurants. I received low pay at 3 other Alsatian restaurants. I still use many of the things I learned during my time in France. I can't imagine culinary school would have better prepared me. And if you can afford culinary school, you can afford to work for free in a great restaurant - though there's a lot more people trying to do that now.


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## akirapuff (May 14, 2016)

I don't really get matsutake mushrooms. Really mild flavor.. I heard in japan they cook it with rice and ginko nuts.


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## Bfitts (May 20, 2016)

Find the best restaurant you can with people willing to teach you and don't give up. You're going to get the same job whether you went to school or not. For a chef, your attitude and work ethic are the most important thing. Work harder than everyone around you, read all the books, come in early, stay late. That's what it takes to succeed.


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## Jordanp (May 20, 2016)

[video=youtube;gfVjxg2tH7w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfVjxg2tH7w[/video]


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## thisisputt (May 20, 2016)

Thanks for the replies!


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## boomchakabowwow (May 27, 2016)

my neighbor is a line cook at a fancy Sonoma restuarant. she went to culinary school as a hobby, her husband was loaded and payed for it.

they got divorced, and now she is fending on her own. she got buzzed at my house. (she loved my braised curry goat over polenta) and told me her level of pay. i couldnt believe the money. she is barely scraping by.

she did say, she is blessed she isnt strapped with student loan debt. that would kill her. you dont fly out of culinary school and become bobby flay..

at what level in the kitchen do you finally see decent wages..sous chef?


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## Dardeau (May 27, 2016)

What do you call decent? As an engineer maybe 20% of culinary pros end up matching what you make. And that's a big maybe. I'm a sous at a fairly well known restaurant and would bet I come in at a little less than half of what you make. I could make more by going to a hotel chain, but would hate my job. Nobody does this for the money.


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## boomchakabowwow (May 27, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> What do you call decent? As an engineer maybe 20% of culinary pros end up matching what you make. And that's a big maybe. I'm a sous at a fairly well known restaurant and would bet I come in at a little less than half of what you make. I could make more by going to a hotel chain, but would hate my job. Nobody does this for the money.



Good point. My friend is barely making it in CA. She is trying to find a room mate now. She works hard and her job looks fun. I got to hang w her at work for a little. 

It would be tough to come out of school with a bunch of debt. And make $15 per hour.


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## Dardeau (May 27, 2016)

It is a burden that is almost impossible to pay back, and totally exempt from bankruptcy. And as more people go it means less and less. These schools are for profit institutions, and they don't flunk people even if they deserve to. 

If they were run like graduate programs at a state university (entrance standards, minimum GPA, low student to teacher ratio, directed studies aspects) they might begin to justify charging the same amounts. You can go to law school at the University of Alabama, which last time I checked had a bar pass rate in the upper nineties, for less than CIA four year.


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## Johnny.B.Good (May 27, 2016)

The Lucky Peach article makes a pretty convincing case for learning on the job vs. taking on $50,000+ in debt.

Keller is quoted in the article as saying that, "If youre making $10 an hour five to ten years after you graduate from culinary school, then youre not very good." Maybe so, but what can graduates from places like the CIA expect to make on average? It's pretty telling that the article states: "The CIA would not disclose graduate salary data, nor would it disclose how many graduates remain in the industry after five years. These are both basic, understandable metrics that could be used to evaluate program efficacy." 

Many for-profit schools sound downright criminal. Here is a great article on the "Academy of Art University," which is headquartered in the Bay Area: http://www.forbes.com/sites/katiasa...ing-art-degrees-and-false-hopes/#4506a11c1dd9


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## panda (May 28, 2016)

it's not necessary; but the way i see it, any form of entrance into the world of professional cooking is a win if you truly end up having a passion for it.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 28, 2016)

22K a year for Art school! Art & Music for most people are what they enjoy after their real job. 

There is a certain% of culinary students that wash out in real kitchens. You have to be fast, organized, & tuff skin not too sensitive & thrive on pressure. And all for sub standard pay.


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## Johnny.B.Good (Jun 9, 2016)

Stumbled across a few more interesting responses to this question:

http://blog.ruhlman.com/2010/09/so-you-wanna-be-a-chef—-by-bourdain-2/

http://eggbeater.typepad.com/shuna/2006/08/pastry_chef_pos.html


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## Johnny.B.Good (Jun 9, 2016)

Another post with interesting comments below it:

http://eggbeater.typepad.com/shuna/2006/11/should_i_go_to_.html


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## Pirendeus (Jun 10, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> You can go to law school at the University of Alabama, which last time I checked had a bar pass rate in the upper nineties, for less than CIA four year.


But passing the bar doesn't mean you get a job, and getting a legal job doesn't mean making good money.


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## Dardeau (Jun 10, 2016)

Pirendeus said:


> But passing the bar doesn't mean you get a job, and getting a legal job doesn't mean making good money.



Entry level is still way higher than 12/hr. Which is what you make after going to CIA.


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## Duckfat (Jun 10, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> Entry level is still way higher than 12/hr. Which is what you make after going to CIA.



Assumes facts not in evidence. 
Entry level @$12 is for the dilettantes that spent their time @school with their head stuffed in a bong or work in depressed markets. There's nothing wrong with a good party but lets keep it real. A lot of people (read...vast majority) go to culinary school as a defacto career choice because they think it will be easy and they have nothing better to do than spend mom's money. If you aren't starting out over $12 after graduating lets face it, your not exactly the cream of the crop. Simply because it's not statistically viable for the majority does not make school a poor choice.
I think we all know not just any one can walk into law or medical school, even with cash and great grades as there are only so many slots. Additionally we've blushed over the fact that you would spend another 100K+ getting a Bachelors before you even get to that point.
Clearly there are more financially viable career choices than the culinary arts but I'm still in strong favor of getting a degree for the right individual. Most who apply themselves and actually work in this field for more than a few years will be able to justify the cost of their degree.
The one really flawed argument I often see as a basis for not going to culinary school is the starting hourly wage of a line cook. This is not why you go to the CIA or any other college. Starting wages are a moot point. I've hired CIA grads that were worthless and I've seen others advance their careers exponentially faster than those who never went to school. What is hard to put a value on is the fact that with a degree you are often getting your foot in the door in advance of others. If corporate is looking for a Chef (not a line cook or plunger) and they have two resumes, both from applicants with equal years of experience, only one has a degree. Who do you think is getting the first interview? If the corporate Chef is an alumni of your school and the other applicant is not who do you think is getting the job? 
Put a price on that, because ultimately that is what you are paying for.
The thing no one likes to say because it's so obtuse is that if you are the sort that has to resort to asking for career advice on the Internet from strangers then you as an individual should unequivocally not spend your $$$ on Culinary School. For this career choice to be viable you need to be the sort that flips both middle digits to to the statistics and you know exactly where you are going and how you are going to get there. A degree is tool that like any other tool has it's use. For some it's literally worthless and to others it's invaluable. There are no universal "best" answers.
No matter whom you opt to take advice from do yourself a favor and work in this industry for a year before you decide to go to school.
Best of luck with your decision either way.


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## Pirendeus (Jun 10, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> Entry level is still way higher than 12/hr. Which is what you make after going to CIA.


I dunno, do you consider $15/hour "way higher?"
One guy from my class now sells cars, another joined the army. Law school isn't all you think it is...and it's not as hard to get into as you imagine. Law schools are becoming more similar to the CIA you portray.
Edit:sorry, I realize I'm dragging your post off-topic. It's just a sore spot for me


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## JDA_NC (Jun 10, 2016)

Duckfat said:


> What is hard to put a value on is the fact that with a degree you are often getting your foot in the door in advance of others. If corporate is looking for a Chef (not a line cook or plunger) and they have two resumes, both from applicants with equal years of experience, only one has a degree. Who do you think is getting the first interview? If the corporate Chef is an alumni of your school and the other applicant is not who do you think is getting the job?



Outside of big, corporate Sysco gigs, do you still feel this to be is true?

If there are two candidates with equal amount of experience, wouldn't the more defining factors be:

- where and what they've done in their past work history
- how the interview(s) went
- and most importantly, how well their tasting(s) went

Just my take away from working for & talking with some Chefs who have had experience working behind the scenes as corporate Chefs for large restaurant groups. The biggest stress was never about having a degree but instead nailing your tastings (and how incredibly difficult doing them can be, and the learning curve involved).

But I have no experience in that world and I can't say it's a goal or end-game plan for me. It would be cool (and crazy, and intense) to work as a corporate Chef for some of the juggernauts like Starr who have the restaurant business really dialed in, though.


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## Duckfat (Jun 10, 2016)

JDA_NC said:


> Outside of big, corporate Sysco gigs, do you still feel this to be is true?




Yes absolutely. 
Work history is always a factor however in this hypothetical we are talking about candidates with ostensibly the same experience sans degree.
Candidates can blow interviews no matter how good they look on paper. 
Tastings are not that frequently a factor out side of fine dining and when you hit the high end of that spectrum your probably not even getting in to stage unless it's part of a program. 
I have no idea what you mean by a "Sysco" gig but just about every establishment in the USA is getting some product from Sysco. That's just reality.
As far as corporate gigs go this is where the vast majority of jobs are. This means you are stuck getting past human resources. Every thing matters. Education, Work experience, How well you present your self etc. A degree is just another tool, not a magic placebo but candidates with degrees from known culinary schools very often do get the first shot at key jobs. My only point here really is that there is a balance. School is not for every one. This business is not for every one. Based on my experience you certainly do not "need" a degree in the USA. There are still other solid options like the ACF apprenticeship program. However if you can afford it and are motivated I do think it's still a good move.


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## malexthekid (Jun 10, 2016)

I don't disagree with the notion that culinary school is a good idea, we have a similar style program here in aus that most chefs go through, though its a lot cheaper and more based on still working in kitchens.

But ultimately the cost of a "degree" should really reflect your ability to repay it after getting a job in that profession.


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## brainsausage (Jun 10, 2016)

Duckfat said:


> Yes absolutely.
> Work history is always a factor however in this hypothetical we are talking about candidates with ostensibly the same experience sans degree.
> Candidates can blow interviews no matter how good they look on paper.
> Tastings are not that frequently a factor out side of fine dining and when you hit the high end of that spectrum your probably not even getting in to stage unless it's part of a program.
> ...



I heartily disagree. In my experience grads are trapped in a very singular way of thinking, and have a hard time adapting to a working in a kitchen that doesn't immediately reflect their by the book experiences in school. Lots of bad habits. I feel like the majority of these schools are just grooming wage slaves for corporate gigs. Regarding the Sysco jab, I presume JDA was referring to pre-made/frozen food/hotel cruise ship style operations. A couple of Sysco reps walked into my last gig(the sister restaurant of my current deal), with a styro cooler full of cryo'd fish samples from the gulf and further out. I live in Maine. A coastal state with some of the best seafood in the world, and they were trying to sell us on fish sourced from well over 3000 miles away. **** Sysco. The whole system of education in America needs to be re-evaluated in general IMO...


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## Dardeau (Jun 11, 2016)

Josh, that's hilarious, they do that with Maine stuff here. And then they don't get why we don't want it.

As to the 12/hr, in a Deep South right to work state you are doing very well to get that right off the bat. Line cooking around here tends to top out at 14-15/hr plus OT, outside of working for large hotel chains. This isn't right or good but it is. We've had pretty good luck with people who finished one year and dropped out after getting some experience outside of school.


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