# Some Specific Sharpening Assistance



## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

Hi everyone I was hoping that the fine people here with much more knowledge could help me move to the next step of sharpening. I have searched google, you tube and the forums and I think there’s too much info to consolidate into a manageable form for me.

I am able to sharpen knives quite confidently and have been doing it by hand using splash and go stones for quite a while (>5 years).

I currently use the Kramer Zwilling set that comes with: 400 Grit Glass Water Sharpening Stone, 1000 Grit Glass Water Sharpening Stone, 5000 Grit Glass Water Sharpening Stone, Cleaning Stone for Sharpening Stones. I also have a metal diamond plate for levelling.

I would like to stick with splash and go but would like to start thinning gyutos as needed, also would like to experiment with Kasumi finishes and removing patina occasionally.

Which splash and go stones and what grits would you all recommend to achieve the best results sharpening/thinning mostly carbon, SKD and SLD steel. I do not have any PM/High Speed Tool Steel knives. Or are the current stones I have enough?


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## KingShapton (Feb 2, 2021)

For thinning I would add a coarser stone. In the area # 120- # 220 grit.


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> For thinning I would add a coarser stone. In the area # 120- # 220 grit.



I have an aroma diamond 140...would that be okay or do you recommend a synthetic stone instead of diamond plate for this?


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## Hamesjo (Feb 2, 2021)

JKI's 320 grit splash and go is really sweet. Cuts fast...doesn't load up badly, great for thinning work.

For kasumi finishes the King 800 gives an effortless, decent contrast between core and cladding super quick ! It's a soaker but not that fussy in my opinion


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

Hamesjo said:


> JKI's 320 grit splash and go is really sweet. Cuts fast...doesn't load up badly, great for thinning work



Perfect I shall see if he has any in stock : )

Now would I be able to restore a nice finish with the existing stones I have or should I be looking to something else to properly progress through the grits when thinning?


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## KingShapton (Feb 2, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> I have an aroma diamond 140...would that be okay or do you recommend a synthetic stone instead of diamond plate for this?


The Atoma also works, but leaves deep scratches that have to be worked out again.

Thinning with a diamond plate significantly reduces the life of a diamond plate.

In the end, it's still a personal thing, I don't like thinning with a diamond plate ..

Another option would be coarse sandpaper on a flat surface, which would also be the inexpensive solution.


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> The Atoma also works, but leaves deep scratches that have to be worked out again.
> 
> Thinning with a diamond plate significantly reduces the life of a diamond plate.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for the advice!


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## Bolek (Feb 2, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> I have an aroma diamond 140...would that be okay or do you recommend a synthetic stone instead of diamond plate for this?


And the aroma diamond 140 is the only diamondf plate that smels so nice


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## Benuser (Feb 2, 2021)

Far less expensive than an Atoma. May be interesting for occasional thinning. Available in different grits.





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www.amazon.de


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## ian (Feb 2, 2021)

You also don’t need a super coarse grit stone for occasional maintenance thinning, if that’s what you’re talking about. Your 400 will be fine for that. If you’re trying to change the knife more dramatically, then you’ll need something coarser.


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

Bolek said:


> And the aroma diamond 140 is the only diamondf plate that smels so nice



hahahamy spell check sucks but at least it made a funny


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Far less expensive than an Atoma. May be interesting for occasional thinning. Available in different grits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This one looks interesting thanks!


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

ian said:


> You also don’t need a super coarse grit stone for occasional maintenance thinning, if that’s what you’re talking about. Your 400 will be fine for that. If you’re trying to change the knife more dramatically, then you’ll need something coarser.



Thanks for the info! My main concern is that the Kramer/Zwilling stones aren’t that great? Or maybe they are? I have nothing to compare them to so I was wondering if it is advised to move into something else or if they are fine sharpening stones.


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## KingShapton (Feb 2, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> Thanks for the info! My main concern is that the Kramer/Zwilling stones aren’t that great? Or maybe they are? I have nothing to compare them to so I was wondering if it is advised to move into something else or if they are fine sharpening stones.


The most important question is: Are you satisfied with the stones yourself?

If the answer is "yes" then leave everything as it is, if the answer is "no" then try other stones.

Or try another stone for a direct comparison ...


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## ModRQC (Feb 2, 2021)

Kramer/Zwilling are good enough. They might not be the easiest to polish on since very hard. Wide bevels will be easier, convex grinds will usually work better with a bit softer muddier stone IMO.


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## tostadas (Feb 2, 2021)

Aren't the Kramer stones made by Naniwa?


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## KingShapton (Feb 2, 2021)

tostadas said:


> Aren't the Kramer stones made by Naniwa?


The Kramer stones are rumored to be from either Shapton or Naniwa.

The Miyabi / twin stones should be a little harder bound Naniwa Chosera / Professional.

But these are all rumors and speculations ... not a tangible or reliable statement.


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## tri.ngm (Feb 2, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Far less expensive than an Atoma. May be interesting for occasional thinning. Available in different grits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you think this can be use for flattening?


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> The most important question is: Are you satisfied with the stones yourself?
> 
> If the answer is "yes" then leave everything as it is, if the answer is "no" then try other stones.
> 
> Or try another stone for a direct comparison ...



This is a good point but when I don’t have anything to compare it to I am just wondering if better results can be achieved for the processes I want to try from user experience. I have great results sharpening with the Kramer stones but am uncertain about thinning as I haven’t tried it as of yet.


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## Benuser (Feb 2, 2021)

tri.ngm said:


> Do you think this can be use for flattening?


I use it to revive the texture of coarse Shaptons (120, 240) I don't want to waste my Atoma 140 with. If a stone is seriously dished the size might be a problem. Act in time.


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## tri.ngm (Feb 2, 2021)

Benuser said:


> I use it to revive the texture of coarse Shaptons (120, 240) I don't want to waste my Atoma 140 with. If a stone is seriously dished the size might be a problem. Act in time.


Thanks for reply! How about the higher grit of the brand for finer stone? 
I'd love to hear more about German hidden gems.


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## KingShapton (Feb 2, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> This is a good point but when I don’t have anything to compare it to I am just wondering if better results can be achieved for the processes I want to try from user experience.


As I said before ... maybe you should just buy and use a different stone for comparison.



mcwcdn said:


> I have great results sharpening with the Kramer stones but am uncertain about thinning as I haven’t tried it as of yet.


Just try it.


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## PappaG (Feb 2, 2021)

The best comparison to using the 400 kramer for thinning is much like using a chosera 400 for thinning. As stated above, trying something more course. a Shapton pro 220 would be a good place to start.


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## inferno (Feb 2, 2021)

you can thin with any stone. it just takes a longer or shorter time.
the way you find out if you need a coarser stone or not is when you're thinning with what you have and realize that this **** is gonna take all day.
then you get a coarser stone. easy as that.


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## ian (Feb 2, 2021)

+1. If you do maintenance thinning every time you could never need anything less than a 1k. If you have to drop to a 120 grit stone, that’s because you’ve waited a while to address the geometry above the edge. This is fine, it’s just not always the case that you need to go that coarse. Anyway, I’d wait for the OP to say “the kind of thinning I want to do is taking forever with my 400” to recommend something coarser.

On the other hand, more stones is always better.


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## Benuser (Feb 2, 2021)

tri.ngm said:


> Thanks for reply! How about the higher grit of the brand for finer stone?
> I'd love to hear more about German hidden gems.







Atoma 140 and the 60 and 400 'sponge'. 
I use the 400 with Hard Arkansas, Belgian Blue Brocken, up to a Naniwa Junpaku 8k Snow-white. And for very fast thinning behind the edge. Have used it so far only with basic carbons.


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

PappaG said:


> The best comparison to using the 400 kramer for thinning is much like using a chosera 400 for thinning. As stated above, trying something more course. a Shapton pro 220 would be a good place to start.



Thanks yes this makes sense...I think I should add a Shapton Pro 220 and in the future thin more often as needed as opposed to waiting too long which will cause me to need to remove more material!


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

ian said:


> +1. If you do maintenance thinning every time you could never need anything less than a 1k. If you have to drop to a 120 grit stone, that’s because you’ve waited a while to address the geometry above the edge. This is fine, it’s just not always the case that you need to go that coarse. Anyway, I’d wait for the OP to say “the kind of thinning I want to do is taking forever with my 400” to recommend something coarser.
> 
> On the other hand, more stones is always better.



I haven't tried thinning yet, I just wanted to make sure what I have is capable before I get into it and due to the fact I have sharpened some of my more often used knives quite a bit I do think I need something more aggressive to remove material. In the future I will touch things up regularly to avoid having to go so coarse.


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## ian (Feb 2, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> I haven't tried thinning yet, I just wanted to make sure what I have is capable before I get into it and due to the fact I have sharpened some of my more often used knives quite a bit I do think I need something more aggressive to remove material. In the future I will touch things up regularly to avoid having to go so coarse.



Try thinning on the 400 before you buy new stones though. Don’t buy a coarse stone because you theoretically need it, buy it because you’re sick of spending time on your 400 and want to go faster. If you’ve never done it before, practicing on a 400 is not a bad idea. You probably don’t exactly know what you’re going for yet, so you don’t really know if you want to arrive there faster yet. Also, know that 120 grit scratches are harder to erase.


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

ian said:


> Try thinning on the 400 before you buy new stones though. Don’t buy a coarse stone because you theoretically need it, buy it because you’re sick of spending time on your 400 and want to go faster. If you’ve never done it before, practicing on a 400 is not a bad idea.



That seems like sound advice! Thanks! And how about the progression to restoring the finish on the newly thinned bevels. Would I just go 400-1000-5000?


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## ian (Feb 2, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> That seems like sound advice! Thanks! And how about the progression to restoring the finish on the newly thinned bevels. Would I just go 400-1000-5000?



What knife are you working on? Is it a wide bevel? If so, 400-1000 might be good, or 5000 if you really want to, although it might be a little more sticky with food. If it’s not wide bevel, you shouldn’t create a big bevel. Try to keep some convexity in the grind and finish it with sandpaper. Regardless, depending on the stones you may find it quite hard to get a perfectly uniform finish. If it really bothers you, you can smooth out the finish with sandpaper. For a really good kasumi, you might need other stones, and perhaps some fingerstones too.


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## mcwcdn (Feb 2, 2021)

ian said:


> What knife are you working on? Is it a wide bevel? If so, 400-1000 might be good, or 5000 if you really want to, although it might be a little more sticky with food. If it’s not wide bevel, you shouldn’t create a big bevel. Try to keep some convexity in the grind and finish it with sandpaper. Regardless, depending on the stones you may find it quite hard to get a perfectly uniform finish. If it really bothers you, you can smooth out the finish with sandpaper. For a really good kasumi, you might need other stones, and perhaps some fingerstones too.



It is not a wide bevel, I was going to practice on a Munetoshi 240 Gyuto and thank you for the assistance and information I really appreciate it!


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## jwthaparc (Feb 2, 2021)

tostadas said:


> Aren't the Kramer stones made by Naniwa?


Kramer said they are chosera in a video I watched.


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## Benuser (Feb 3, 2021)

As you haven't done any thinning before, you may start by little steps. I guess there will be rather prominent shoulders — where bevel and face meet — you may ease or remove. I would start by painting the edge with a marker and start sharpening at the half of your normal angle, so you reduce the distance between spine and stone by the half. You may proceed until the paint has almost gone. So the very edge remains untouched. It still will require a touching up with your finest stone. 
Make sure your stone is perfectly flat to avoid scratching the face. 
This first thinning behind the edge should provide quite a performance boost.


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## mcwcdn (Feb 3, 2021)

Benuser said:


> As you haven't done any thinning before, you may start by little steps. I guess there will be rather prominent shoulders — where bevel and face meet — you may ease or remove. I would start by painting the edge with a marker and start sharpening at the half of your normal angle, so you reduce the distance between spine and stone by the half. You may proceed until the paint has almost gone. So the very edge remains untouched. It still will require a touching up with your finest stone.
> Make sure your stone is perfectly flat to avoid scratching the face.
> This first thinning behind the edge should provide quite a performance boost.



Thanks so much for this. I will definitely implement these steps.


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## big_adventure (Feb 3, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Kramer said they are chosera in a video I watched.



Naniwa makes Chosera. Chosera stones are the exact same as Naniwa Pro, just a bit thicker and with an attached base. Oh, and the Choseras still come with a Nagura, the NPs don't anymore.


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## Benuser (Feb 3, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Naniwa makes Chosera. Chosera stones are the exact same as Naniwa Pro, just a bit thicker and with an attached base. Oh, and the Choseras still come with a Nagura, the NPs don't anymore.


With the 400 and 800, I was able to compare Chosera and NP. Apart from the size difference, there's a slight change in composition. Both NP's are denser, even less subject to dishing and slightly inclined to glazing.


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## big_adventure (Feb 3, 2021)

Benuser said:


> With the 400 and 800, I was able to compare Chosera and NP. Apart from the size difference, there's a slight change in composition. Both NP's are denser, even less subject to dishing and slightly inclined to glazing.



Ah, cool - I was going with what I've heard repeated by a number of sources. Thanks for the clarification!


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## jwthaparc (Feb 3, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Naniwa makes Chosera. Chosera stones are the exact same as Naniwa Pro, just a bit thicker and with an attached base. Oh, and the Choseras still come with a Nagura, the NPs don't anymore.


I'm well aware of who makes chosera. 

I was just saying, kramer specifically said they were chosera stones.


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## M1k3 (Feb 4, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> That seems like sound advice! Thanks! And how about the progression to restoring the finish on the newly thinned bevels. Would I just go 400-1000-5000?


Sandpaper is really easy to use after fine, 4k+ grit, stones. Rub the sandpaper from heel to tip with some kind of firm but pliable backing. I use a cork I cut a flat spot on. If you're not looking for a kasumi finish that is.
400 to about 800-1k sandpaper is matte finish. Above 1k starts to get really shiny. 2k+ is mirror like.


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## mcwcdn (Feb 4, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Sandpaper is really easy to use after fine, 4k+ grit, stones. Rub the sandpaper from heel to tip with some kind of firm but pliable backing. I use a cork I cut a flat spot on. If you're not looking for a kasumi finish that is.
> 400 to about 800-1k sandpaper is matte finish. Above 1k starts to get really shiny. 2k+ is mirror like.



Thanks! Now this would just provide a hairline scratch pattern? If I did want to achieve a Kasumi finish how would you recommend going about that?


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## big_adventure (Feb 4, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> I'm well aware of who makes chosera.
> 
> I was just saying, kramer specifically said they were chosera stones.



I was just commenting for anyone else reading the thread.


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## tostadas (Feb 4, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> Thanks! Now this would just provide a hairline scratch pattern? If I did want to achieve a Kasumi finish how would you recommend going about that?



You can't really get a kasumi finish with sandpaper. In general, soft stones are good for that. Search in the sharpening forum for lots of info about kasumi


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## mcwcdn (Feb 4, 2021)

tostadas said:


> You can't really get a kasumi finish with sandpaper. In general, soft stones are good for that. Search in the sharpening forum for lots of info about kasumi



Thank you!


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## M1k3 (Feb 4, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> Thanks! Now this would just provide a hairline scratch pattern? If I did want to achieve a Kasumi finish how would you recommend going about that?


By not asking me 

On stones though. Other people know way more about that than me.


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## mcwcdn (Feb 4, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> By not asking me
> 
> On stones though. Other people know way more about that than me.



Haha


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## jwthaparc (Feb 4, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> Thanks! Now this would just provide a hairline scratch pattern? If I did want to achieve a Kasumi finish how would you recommend going about that?


Stones. If the blade has dips in the surface, you will need fingerstones. 

There are other tricks though. Like taking a towel saturated with stone slurry, and rubbing the blade. Or leaving a bunch of stone slurry on the blade from polishing, and taking something like the backside of sandpaper (the side without the grit) and rubbing the slurry on the blade. It's very good for evening out the finish even on flat blades, if it doesnt come out perfect right away. (Its kinda cheating, but who cares).


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## mcwcdn (Feb 4, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Stones. If the blade has dips in the surface, you will need fingerstones.
> 
> There are other tricks though. Like taking a towel saturated with stone slurry, and rubbing the blade. Or leaving a bunch of stone slurry on the blade from polishing, and taking something like the backside of sandpaper (the side without the grit) and rubbing the slurry on the blade. It's very good for evening out the finish even on flat blades, if it doesnt come out perfect right away. (Its kinda cheating, but who cares).


Thank you this is very helpful! I saw a video on you tube of someone using a nagura stone to get a nice Kasumi finish. I am finding out it’s kind of like try and see what happens haha.


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## jwthaparc (Feb 4, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> Thank you this is very helpful! I saw a video on you tube of someone using a nagura stone to get a nice Kasumi finish. I am finding out it’s kind of like try and see what happens haha.


I've found my naguras to be a bit streaky, but they are good enough to get at least some base work done. Yeah, there are a lot of good tricks. I watch this knifemaker/sharpener from japan (the guy that fixes knives on the waterwheel) he uses some soft wood that he dips in natural stone slurry, then rubs the bevel.


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## Benuser (Feb 4, 2021)

mcwcdn said:


> Thank you this is very helpful! I saw a video on you tube of someone using a nagura stone to get a nice Kasumi finish. I am finding out it’s kind of like try and see what happens haha.


My pleasure! If you want to make sure not to scratch the higher parts of the blade you may move it along the stone's long side. (Trick from @Dave Martell IIRC).





Apply pressure with your fingers where you want steel to get removed.


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## mcwcdn (Feb 4, 2021)

Benuser said:


> My pleasure! If you want to make sure not so scratch the higher parts of the blade you may move it along the stone's long side.
> View attachment 112804
> 
> Apply pressure with your fingers where you want steel to get removed.



Thank you again and that looks fantastic!


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