# Custom Knife Pricing and Cost Questions



## mikedtran (Jun 10, 2017)

So I had a recent interaction with a custom knife maker where after completion of the knife I was quoted a price ~$170 for additional cost above what I was originally quoted.

When I asked for a price breakdown the custom maker became defensive and would not give me an exact price breakdown and eventually after many asks said that it was due to extra belts used due to the handle wood choice I had made.

**To be completely transparent the custom maker did offer to send the knife to me without any other fees, but it definitely did not come in a nice a tone (in my viewpoint it was very passive aggressive, but again that is a personal view point). My personal choice in the end, since I wouldn't be able to enjoy a custom knife from someone who I didn't have a good relationship - was to take him up for his offer for a full refund (he easily had another buyer lined up at the quoted price).**

There are additional details, but I don't think any are particularly relevant to my primary question.

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My main question is how do people feel about custom makers charging extra for "additional belts used" or "failed attempts"? 

Failed attempts would include things such as failed differential hardening in brine where the blade cracks, or additional charges for when there is a failure in mokume.

I'm still personally trying to wrap my head around it...maybe I was in the wrong and I should pay for additional belts used because I chose Honduran Rosewood Burl?


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## tsuriru (Jun 10, 2017)

Im not entirely sure what the details of the design are etc. - but sometimes special requests need to be addressed in terms of the process required to achieve them. Perhaps he quoted too soon and did not take the time to think things over all the way, then realized this will require more payment or he will be working for free - or even paying to work - which is of course wrong. I think asking for a price breakdown is demeaning. I can easily see how this would offend.


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## RDalman (Jun 10, 2017)

Interesting topic, following.

I have many times just silently taken big "losses" like this, if I had given my word on something that's what I want to deliver on. Suck it up to my own inexperience not accounting for Murphy.. But it's also part of why I moved away from making custom work and giving a price ahead. The disappointment for the customer or maker sucks when it happens.


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## mikedtran (Jun 10, 2017)

First I wanted to say I really appreciate you both sharing your honest thoughts and feedback as this is something I'm personally still trying to understand and grasp.



tsuriru said:


> Im not entirely sure what the details of the design are etc. - but sometimes special requests need to be addressed in terms of the process required to achieve them. Perhaps he quoted too soon and did not take the time to think things over all the way, then realized this will require more payment or he will be working for free - or even paying to work - which is of course wrong. I think asking for a price breakdown is demeaning. I can easily see how this would offend.



This is super helpful context and exactly why I asked this question. I personally didn't see asking for a price breakdown as demeaning, but thinking on it I could see why it is. I do believe kitchen knife makers are making art and asking an artist for a price breakdown would be demeaning. 

Though in the same vein if an artist quoted a price, but asked for more afterwards I would go into the same process of asking why. More from an understanding standpoint.

From my perspective it seems strange to charge more due to additional use of belts and time if the handle design was known.



RDalman said:


> Interesting topic, following.
> 
> I have many times just silently taken big "losses" like this, if I had given my word on something that's what I want to deliver on. Suck it up to my own inexperience not accounting for Murphy.. But it's also part of why I moved away from making custom work and giving a price ahead. The disappointment for the customer or maker sucks when it happens.



Robin that is big of you and very much appreciated hopefully by your customers. I think it is probably why many makers are moving away from doing customs/giving price ahead of time.


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## RDalman (Jun 10, 2017)

Yea, customs are super difficult. What may seem like a good idea in design may not come out like expected, due to material properties or the process of making. Knifemaking is often about chasing details, and when "unexpected" happens in these details, chasing them can take some long long hours. Nailing out a reasonably efficient process with materials and design you know well is worth a lot. In the end we want a good/great knife, that the maker feels passionate about, knife providing the buyer with the value they're looking for


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## mikedtran (Jun 10, 2017)

This is a great and very eloquent response. I'm not surprised that I hear more praise about working with you than just about any other custom maker.

I truly do believe it is a cohesive and collaborative process in that I want a knife that suits me but also makes the custom maker extremely happy. I think the piece represents more than performance and aesthetics, but also gets at the connection two people make when collaborating together. Hence why in the end I chose to note receive the knife as the last component was broken to me.



RDalman said:


> Yea, customs are super difficult. What may seem like a good idea in design may not come out like expected, due to material properties or the process of making. Knifemaking is often about chasing details, and when "unexpected" happens in these details, chasing them can take some long long hours. Nailing out a reasonably efficient process with materials and design you know well is worth a lot. In the end we want a good/great knife, that the maker feels passionate about, knife providing the buyer with the value they're looking for


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## hambone.johnson (Jun 10, 2017)

R.d.'s response is far more elegant than my own but I would be in the same mindset as you as the customer. 

170$ is far more than quoted and the added money for just simple shop materials that need to get used every day is not in line with the reason for price increase. Nor would charging for a mistake on the makers side 

If you went to a restaurant and were charged twice on your bill for an entree and the explanation is because the chef burnt the first protein, not gonna fly. And I put this in the same boat.


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## mise_en_place (Jun 10, 2017)

mikedtran said:


> My main question is how do people feel about custom makers charging extra for "additional belts used" or "failed attempts"?
> 
> Failed attempts would include things such as failed differential hardening in brine where the blade cracks, or additional charges for when there is a failure in mokume.
> 
> I'm still personally trying to wrap my head around it...maybe I was in the wrong and I should pay for additional belts used because I chose Honduran Rosewood Burl?



I think it's best if makers are going to quote a price upfront to discuss the difficulties and possible extra costs at the time of the knife's inception. If Honduran Rosewood burl is a difficult wood to work with, I think a smart maker would let the prospective customer know there's a good chance this is going to cost more on the maker's end (extra belts, time, etc) and give the customer an estimate on the "premium."

If I ask for a 52100 monosteel and the maker ***** up the heat treatment, I think the maker should eat the cost completely. If I ask for a blue water quenched honyaki, I would imagine the maker would either A). build in the extra cost for a honyaki in their original estimate, or B). tell me this could end up costing ME the customer another couple hundred if things go wrong.


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## mise_en_place (Jun 10, 2017)

hambone.johnson said:


> If you went to a restaurant and were charged twice on your bill for an entree and the explanation is because the chef burnt the first protein, not gonna fly. And I put this in the same boat.



Agreed. You don't get charged when the chef burns your steak, but when you order a difficult dish where only 7/10 that make it out of the oven are presentable, the premium is built into the price on the menu.


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## malexthekid (Jun 10, 2017)

mikedtran said:


> This is a great and very eloquent response. I'm not surprised that I hear more praise about working with you than just about any other custom maker.
> 
> I truly do believe it is a cohesive and collaborative process in that I want a knife that suits me but also makes the custom maker extremely happy. I think the piece represents more than performance and aesthetics, but also gets at the connection two people make when collaborating together. Hence why in the end I chose to note receive the knife as the last component was broken to me.



I find it funny you talk about working together when to me it seems that you place a massive caveat on that... i.e. lets work together on my terms. (Just how that appears to come off based on how you have described it). You can't play the fixed price game and talk about being collaborative.

Probably not the best move if the maker didn't alert you as soon as he knew. But it could also just have been quite a few things and "belt wear" was the most convenient thing.

I also tend to think asking for a price breakdown is douchie thing (based on experience from most who have used that question on me) and quite often perceived as aggressive. Asking why is different to jumping to. I don't believe i owe you more so give me a price breakdown.

To answer your question it depends.. personally I would always want the maker to make money. Most will price in some form of failure as they know it happens but its when things step outside the norm. But I would also prefer to know as soon as the maker knows.


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## malexthekid (Jun 10, 2017)

Sorry first too points of mine came off a lot more douchie than i intended them to sound. Was trying to a) explain how it sounded to me and b)was purely reflecting on my experience of having people ask me for a breakdown.


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## toddnmd (Jun 10, 2017)

To me, the maker should be clear about costs and additions at an early point in the discussion of materials, i.e.if an additional cost is involved for a certain material, that should come out very early in the discussion. If not, I think it's a type of learning cost by the maker.
I had a custom knife with a handle made of HRB and musk ox horn made. To his credit, the maker noted the additional work of using the musk ox (after he had finished shaping the handle), but did not charge me more. He straight out said "I'm charging WAY more for musk ox horn next time . . . " but did not ask me for additional payment, which is the way I think it should be. I'd also be okay with someone saying, "I don't have much experience working with that material, is it okay if we set the price between $X and $XX depending on how it goes?" But I don't think it's okay to add in an additional cost later, that's a learning cost that could be added in later for a material/design/etc. that the maker knows requires additional work or care, is more likely to fail for whatever reason, etc.
Hardening (to me) is a basic knifemaker's responsibility, and failures should already be built into the cost.
I agree that a significant part of the cost of a custom is the value put on the collaboration process and relationship with the maker, and knowing one has a unique piece of functional art, in which the buyer has had the opportunity to provide a significant amount of input and direction, and the maker has worked with and guided the buyer through the process to make a knife s/he is comfortable and proficient at making.


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## fatboylim (Jun 10, 2017)

I kind of feel that custom blades are similar to honyaki failure rates as any part of the process could deviate from spec (including belt grinding). Most honyaki are priced at least 2 times the normal price. $170 may prove to a reasonable cost. For transparency, it maybe best for custom makers to tell their customers that a 50% contingency budget maybe needed in making a custom knife with photos to follow where the surprises come up. If not mentioned, then it is great for them to offer a full refund; at their own cost. 

Also, if the cooking analogy were to be made, then making tweeks to a menu and expecting the same quality does not equate well to the huge effort of making a single knife. 

It is more like asking a Chef to make a completely new and complex dish from scratch during a busy session. Most Chefs would reject it and others would charge much more assuming failure rates and extra time to remake, let alone timings to get all the dishes to the pass at the same time! 

Also RDalman, I hope you get to charge more for your knives over time so you might make back what you lost! It is very kind of you to suck up the costs, but it should at least be paying itself back in the future. Otherwise, it makes knife making a charity business that becomes too burdensome.

On record, Mert Tansu cracked 1 walrus ivory ferrule and went through twice as many sanding belts to make my custom walrus ivory handle for my Toyama Gyuto; and then re-finished it because it was not perfect enough. He did not charge me anything extra but he definitely should/will next time.


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## RDalman (Jun 10, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Also RDalman, I hope you get to charge more for your knives over time so you might make back what you lost! It is very knife of you to suck up the costs, but it should at least be paying itself back in the future. Otherwise, it makes knife making a charity business that becomes too burdensome.



Thanks I think I am now. It's up to me to "cover my ass" and I'm better at it. Very grateful for the happy customers showing support.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 10, 2017)

Mike - you did exactly what I would have done, including asking for a refund. Won't get into anymore than that, but you as a customer have every right to ask what your paying for.


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## malexthekid (Jun 10, 2017)

Redacted.


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## Haburn (Jun 10, 2017)

Personally, if the scope of work doesn't change the customer shouldn't be charged any additional fees. If a job is misquoted that's on the maker not the customer. I've misquoted plenty of work and I always chalk my mistakes up to my "Bladesmithing Tuition." 
$170 because of belts for a HRB handle? Whhaaaaaattt???? Crazy world we're living in. :biggrin:
The customer is also not responsible for any mistakes made. Recently, I screwed up the last weld for a damascus build and lost the entire billet. I was out about 7-8 hours of work, plus the steel, plus consumables. I emailed my client, explained what happened, and apologized that their knife was going to be late. No extra charges, just a bruised ego on my end. Got to pay that Bladesmithing Tuition. 
Mike, I hope you have a better experience if/when you get another custom rolling. Don N, Maumasi, Burke, and Rader, are just a few guys that are great to work with.


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## pkjames (Jun 10, 2017)

I can somewhat understand the "screw up HT" scenario. 

When I order honyaki from Sakai suppliers, I sometimes get asked if I am willing to take more or less blades that I ordered. Reason? If I ordered say 5 honyaki gyuto, the blade smith would certainly have to make 6 or 7 of them (in anticipation of certain failure rate). If this order happens to be a special request, such as blue 1 mizu-honyaki, which happen to be a non-standard offering of the supplier, then the supplier will often ask me if I would take the whole lot (7 if no-failure, or maybe 3-4 if the smith had a bad day). I often reply saying I am OK either way, since I can always sell them.

Now back to customs scenario, customer will always buy 1 knife, there is no chance that the customer will take two of the same knife. For the maker, if the knife is a honyaki or anything that comes with a high failure rate, then the dilemma is if the maker should make two of the same blade in anticipation of a failure. If both blades are successful, the maker may struggle to sell the other one (which is not this case, as there is a backup already); if the maker only makes one blade and screwed up, then he will be paying to deliver (sucks if this happens), but I think the maker should factor in this sort of overhead. 

I agree with Ian that if the misquote is due to the inexperience of maker, this is the maker's cost of learning and should not be passed to the customer.


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## jessf (Jun 10, 2017)

Interesting topic. If you're buying a knife from a maker with a registered business, then I would agree with the use of the term "customer". If the maker is not a registered company, then it's a transaction between individuals and your "customer" rights are almost non-existent. The laws that govern these transactions differ from country to country so it's important to know your rights before engaging as it may also temper your expectations. That being said, I fully agree with the idea that if a mistake is made most makers with integrity will eat the cost and likely not mention it to the person buying. $170 seems steep for belts to grind wood when you consider it likely took fewer belts to grind the blade.


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## apicius9 (Jun 10, 2017)

I appreciate the differentiated discussion. I am not a knife maker, but from dabbling a bit with the wood pieces, I think I can relate. I fully agree that, in general, there is a risk that the maker has to take for an individual order and eat costs for failed attempts, additional materials etc. But at the same time, this should be calculated into the overall pricing. Such problems happen even to experienced makers, and a maker cannot consistently work for free in these cases or waste materials and survive professionally. 

I am just guessing here, but I think many of the makers are better with handling steel and wood than with handling business numbers and anticipating pricing... And while I think every customer has a number of important rights, it is often overlooked where the actual costs for a maker come from. A few extra belts may not add up to $170 for one customer, but they do add up quite a bit over time. I know from my experience that if I charged the hourly rate of a decent car mechanic, in some cases just the time I spend on emails communicating with a customer add up to what I charge as an end price. 

As far as I can see, none of the smaller makers here have yet become rich and famous from making knives. For any individual custom order, we expect a maker to foresee exactly what will go right and what may be complicated. Unless we expect a maker to continually eat costs, as a customer we need to either allow some flexibility in pricing or accept higher prices that allow some buffer for the maker. As Robin said, custom orders can be fun - at least I enjoy the challenge and the communication with people - but they are also always a risk for a maker. If you want risk free and fixed, economic pricing, that's what all the semi-artisanal lines you can buy off the shelves are for. 

That may sound a bit harsher than I mean it, but I think you will get my point.

Stefan


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## Customfan (Jun 10, 2017)

Depends a lot on how the deal for the custom was negotiated. A "per hour + marials deal" is completely different than a "quoted end product".

I can see your point, I always QUOTE, I you did this then you should not have to pay more than quoted UNLESS you asked for something additional... this is one of these situations where it pays to communicate.

Never had this happen to me mainly because I communicate with new (to me) makers like crazy and ask for a quote every time there is a change, For no other reason than avoiding missunderstandings and issues like this. Once i know a maker and feel comfortable with how he/she does business I will relax because I know no matter what it will be a fair deal.

Over time I have lerned that sometimes its worth it to pay a bit more (so that the maker can have a contingency) If I know the maker will deliver and not charge more for this type of situation. Been participating here for years and for the most part I've found makers here to be super understanding to a fault. ;-)


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## lagrangeL2 (Jun 10, 2017)

Stefan makes some good points. 

I have a question of protocol, rather than the ethics of this. Is it practical for custom makers to set up a "contingency deposit" for each client, where the client gets their deposit back if there are no problems? Guessing it's easier for a return client, but it would at least formalize the expectations of a less business minded maker. For it to work, the client would have to receive prompt and honest notice of what went wrong, and the yomp required to fix it. It could be abused by the knife maker, but word of that could be spread through KKF (I hope). 

To be frank, If I were in Miked's shoes, I'd be saltier about the dishonesty than about the 170$. Then again, *edited out*...different strokes for different folks I guess.


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## Don Nguyen (Jun 10, 2017)

Haburn said:


> Personally, if the scope of work doesn't change the customer shouldn't be charged any additional fees. If a job is misquoted that's on the maker not the customer. I've misquoted plenty of work and I always chalk my mistakes up to my "Bladesmithing Tuition."
> $170 because of belts for a HRB handle? Whhaaaaaattt???? Crazy world we're living in. :biggrin:
> The customer is also not responsible for any mistakes made. Recently, I screwed up the last weld for a damascus build and lost the entire billet. I was out about 7-8 hours of work, plus the steel, plus consumables. I emailed my client, explained what happened, and apologized that their knife was going to be late. No extra charges, just a bruised ego on my end. Got to pay that Bladesmithing Tuition.
> Mike, I hope you have a better experience if/when you get another custom rolling. Don N, Maumasi, Burke, and Rader, are just a few guys that are great to work with.



I completely agree with Ian here. My take is that the maker should know the risks involved with possibly new projects and the rates should be quoted accordingly. And of course, as with life in general, it never goes to plan, so then you eat it and adjust for the next project. Eventually, hopefully, the experience adds up over time and then those rates start becoming pretty good and consistent. This is why the big name makers tend to have higher rates than some of the newer guys - they call upon all of their knowledge that built them up to that stage.

I love the term "Bladesmithing Tuition".


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## mikedtran (Jun 10, 2017)

Malex not at all my friend. I think it is important to get both sides hence why I made this thread. I'm really happy to see both sides having a very open and meaningful conversation and I appreciate your input =)



malexthekid said:


> Sorry first too points of mine came off a lot more douchie than i intended them to sound. Was trying to a) explain how it sounded to me and b)was purely reflecting on my experience of having people ask me for a breakdown.


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## mikedtran (Jun 10, 2017)

lagrangeL2 said:


> Stefan makes some good points.
> 
> I have a question of protocol, rather than the ethics of this. Is it practical for custom makers to set up a "contingency deposit" for each client, where the client gets their deposit back if there are no problems? Guessing it's easier for a return client, but it would at least formalize the expectations of a less business minded maker. For it to work, the client would have to receive prompt and honest notice of what went wrong, and the yomp required to fix it. It could be abused by the knife maker, but word of that could be spread through KKF (I hope).
> 
> To be frank, If I were in Miked's shoes, I'd be saltier about the dishonesty than about the 170$. Then again, *edited out*...different strokes for different folks I guess.



This is an interesting concept. I think after reading through this thread in my detail there are definitely different options as far as how to price whether it is a quoted price or a range. I think the main thing here is clarity and communication early on. 

I personally still don't believe that belts should be an additional charge, now if the ask was say for an integral bolster and the maker had not made one before, I would be flexible on pricing within a range as it would be unclear how long it would take the maker to produce the knife in that case.

And you are absolutely right in that the piece that stuck harder with me and why I wanted to understand both sides is not the money, but rather my perception of the interaction. Hence why seeing that there are clearly many viewpoints is helping me understand both sides.


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## tsuriru (Jun 10, 2017)

mikedtran said:


> I personally still don't believe that belts should be an additional charge, now if the ask was say for an integral bolster and the maker had not made one before, I would be flexible on pricing within a range as it would be unclear how long it would take the maker to produce the knife in that case.



I think the "belt charge" is just his way of reacting to your "price breakdown request". I have been faced with folks that demanded (DEMANDED!!!) a breakdown without me ever misquoting or going back on my quote in the first place. My answer was always the same: "I stole the materials - so no charge there, and I'll throw in the time and labor for free. But the knowledge and experience will cost what I quoted and so will shipping and handling." 

Nowadays we have put all this stuff to sleep since we have an online design system that makes it immediately clear how much we charge for each element of design - and also enable direct communication with us regarding any extra ordinary requests and what they may cost - All this is done before the deal is sealed. But it took a long time to streamline our process as such - and we are not strangers to "bladesmithing tuition". And still, there is a lot of misstrust amongst buyers, and a lot of "baggage" that they carry from other deals gone bad I guess. 

At the end of the day, I think the community of custom buyers is far too harsh, far too quick to judge, and far too unforgiving towards younger makers making their first steps in the custom knife game. This does not serve them well, because it narrows down their choices - and lets face it folks - the number of professional, full time, custom kitchen knife makers, is not so great to warrant this kind of behavior, especially from people who may have great knife skills in the kitchen and know all about sharpening but basically have zero experience making kitchen knives (on the most part....and certain exceptions not withstanding). The best projects, the funest projects, from a custom makers point of view, are with people who do not come to the table with some preconceived notions about "customers being always right" etc. but rather willing to LISTEN to what they are being told and accepting the reallity of working with custom knife makers for what it truly can and should be. A solid TOS also helps keep both sides of a deal clear on what the deal is. And I have found, on the most part, that these individuals are as rare as the custom makers themselves - a rare commodity indeed. 



mikedtran said:


> And you are absolutely right in that the piece that stuck harder with me and why I wanted to understand both sides is not the money, but rather my perception of the interaction. Hence why seeing that there are clearly many viewpoints is helping me understand both sides.



Of course it's not about money - it never is. Well.... not until you have to put food on the table, pay mortgages, up-keep machinery, import materials, pay for medication and treatment of elderly parents or sick children etc. etc. Then its all about money. And when you think about it, $170.00 is NOTHING in scope of what the average consumer of knives and stones pays in the long run for their hobby - and yet, for the custom knife maker this could be a HUGE difference. It could be the difference between turning on the heat or being cold for example.


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## valgard (Jun 10, 2017)

I have similar order with the maker in question placed some time ago and he has been very upfront with the different possible extra charges and difficulties, so when I read this thread I felt like it didnt match with my experience and contacted the maker to get his side of the story. He went ahead and gave me what he was comfortable with and gave me permission to quote him here. 
Im not keen to blindly take sides but in this case I though the knife maker deserved a voice as he is not a vendor here. Here is how the other side of the story goes from the makers perspective as a quote from our comunication:


_"First, Mike and I were actually friends, and have been for years. While this friendship initially started with a knife order, it developed into far more over the course of that time. You can imagine how that impacted the 'cut and dry' business interactions he is pretending to want. Most of our conversations regarding his order lasted all day in text, and included commentary like 'You know buddy, I was thinking...', and went on from there. Perhaps that's my fault, but I do believe that either way, it's understandable. And regardless, the actual $95 in additional cost as listed below, to pay for multiple hours of labor and additional materials, doesn't seem unreasonable to me in the least.

Some of the details of the issue:

Mike originally purchased a stainless knife for $900 and received a
$900 credit from that previous purchase to use towards the carbon. Again, that was a FULL refund...not partial.

The breakdown of the additional costs over the stainless are as follows:

$176 total additional costs, including PayPal fees and shipping
$135 less the PayPal which was negated by an optional bank transfer transaction
$95 less the shipping of $40

So, $95 total additional cost incurred from labor and materials. Generally the price of the rosewood upgrade is given to the customer in one lump, not broken down into belts/labor/wood etc. When asked to break down a lumped cost, it won't always make sense to the customer. This is why I don't generally do it that way....but again, Mike was a friend. So, what that $95 covered was substantial extra time, and belts (this part would have been included in the 'upgrade cost' and not broken down...I've already PAID that 'bladesmithing tuition' tyvm) in dealing with a warped and too thin block of wood he sent me to make his handle out of. I sent him pictures of the warped wood with a straight edge to illustrate, and explained my issues with it very clearly before starting. I also required him to acknowledge those issues before I began. 





In the end though, I feel his post was very unfair, in that it left out a large number of variables that absolutely had an impact on things. For example, what actually set me off (again, social response, not business), and where I got 'passive aggressive' as he put it...wasn't just the demand for a price breakdown of freaking $176...it was where he exclaimed that 'he felt like he was being nickel and dimed!'. For $95. This comment coming from a 'friend' that I had already provided extra work on the knife for...for free...was a huge slap in the face. At that point, I told him I no longer had time for the pointless drama, and to provide his new address for me to ship the knife at my cost with no further charge. I didn't need the extra $100 bad enough to deal with it. I also offered him a second option of a refund, INCLUDING the purchase price of the piece of wood he sent me, which was $51.80...even though I would never have bought or used that piece of wood. He chose the refund, so I sent him back $951.80 the following day. The only thing I truly felt that Mike did 'wrong' though...was to make a post on the forum. Partially because it painted me in a poor light (which I feel was undeserved, and while he didn't 'name names' publicly...me receiving umpteen notifications that he posted meant that plenty of people know who it was about), but mostly because as a custom maker he knows I have no way to defend myself without looking defensive and dismissive...which is never a good thing. In addition, I would be limited in how I responded on the forum anyway, as I'm not a paying vendor and he knows I try to limit my posts there for that reason.

Anyhow, there you have it...the story in a nutshell. I hope our own interaction thus far will give you some perspective. Mike is a good guy, and his response to what I felt was a completely reasonable charge really caught me completely off guard._


I must say that while I obviously wasnt part of the original communication between both parties this matches with my personal understanding of the maker after a few months of regular communications that have extended far outside knife making. 

In my personal experience, I have been quoted a rough price at the very beginning of our communications and while I used that as a rough guideline I expect a lot of the later changes to the order to affect the pricing. I dont expect to be given a hard pricing on every single back and forth detail but I probably want to consolidate pricing once every detail is ready, with the expectation of course that things may not be exactly as initially discussed (there may be things I was getting that Im not anymore). It has been my experience however that this gentleman has been quite generous in his terms, including (but not limited to) super flexible payment options. 
That said, IMO with the extra costs involved in this project seem like the OP was actually getting an incredible deal and I see no reason not to expect an extra cost when going from stainless semi-production to carbon honyaki, mirror polish, a block of wood that didnt meet the makers requirements (and wasnt supplied by the maker)

Disclaimer: The intention of this post is to provide the other side of the story here for people to evaluate and make their own judgement. I dont know the original poster nor do I have any personal opinion about him.

Regards,
Carlos


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## jessf (Jun 10, 2017)

Anyone who can take custom orders and come out a head, good on them. Sounds like a crap shoot.


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## OliverNuther (Jun 10, 2017)

Wow! This thread has got everything.


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## MontezumaBoy (Jun 10, 2017)

tsuriru said:


> My answer was always the same: "I stole the materials - so no charge there, and I'll throw in the time and labor for free. But the knowledge and experience will cost what I quoted and so will shipping and handling."



This response just absolutely cracks me up! Perfect in every respect IMO ... maybe others don't find it funny or good business acumen but I do ...

I think all of the supportive and accepting comments from the various makers here is very, very heartfelt but as a buyer of knives from small operation makers I feel that when you get into this "custom zone" all bets are off. IMO "things happen" and it should be dealt with on an individual knife-by-knife basis and not "swallowed" by the maker or spread out over other buyers knives. 

If someone wants to see a nice flow diagram, cost breakdown spread sheet(s) and power point detailing the knife assembly process and a risk and reward analysis then they are dealing with the wrong business. I'm sure Shun could do it though at a X10 price .... 

Personally I love the fact that there are more and more people willing to take the risk to work in this very narrow area of manufacturing/useable art ... I certainly can't do it and I personally think the risk-reward and profit margins are incredibly skewed against these makers. 

Summary - IMO if a $1000-knife has a 10% pricing issue that is a small price to pay IMO for the opportunity to even buy the knife ... not to mention that CA sales tax is easily +10% and I doubt that was ever going to be paid ... but I digress ...


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## tsuriru (Jun 10, 2017)

MontezumaBoy said:


> If someone wants to see a nice flow diagram, cost breakdown spread sheet(s) and power point detailing the knife assembly process and a risk and reward analysis then they are dealing with the wrong business.



I have nothing against flow diagrams or cost breakdowns or even knife assembly simulations in essence. In fact, I think they would go a long way towards clarifying and focusing the design process to both maker and customer - as long as they are requested respectfully, and either provided respectfully or declined respectfully. And of course, a clear Terms of Service document is a good anchor for both the buyer and the seller. But....I think it goes beyond this. I think that many customers are absolutely in LOVE with the notion that they can influence the design and fabrication process - and for good reason too - it puts them in a position of immense power and choice in terms of the creation of a new tangible product that has not existed before. 

I also think that many makers - especially young and somewhat inexperienced makers, are so enamored with their own work that they let it get in the way and blind them. Ego, in this case is a horrible and destroying power that should be checked at the door by both buyer and maker. Its a hard thing to do when you are making something as awesome as a kitchen knife. I mean, common - owning a knife that you actually took part in designing? how awesome is that? or for that matter, fabricating a kitchen knife from raw materials to specs - how awesome is that? 

But the reality of things is different. Many of the customers seek happiness through their material purchase - and sadly, all a custom knife maker can provide them with at best, is a great custom knife. They may or may not love the knife - but it is only a knife and can only bring them so much joy or dismay before their next "project". The custom knife maker on the other hand, is either there to feed an ego - or a family - or both. And any one custom project can only bring him so much joy - or buy him so much food - before its time to start a new project. And so it goes... 

Most of the seasoned clientele that have dealt with custom knife makers (possibly got burnt in some of those deals) know what to watch out for. So they ask the right questions, and either get the answers they want to hear - or not. And at that point they either opt for the deal or not. Much like the buyers, custom knife makers go through a learning graph dictated by their experience with various buyers. They learn over time to recognize the tell-tale signs of a customer that might be a prime candidate for buyers remorse or what not. It is up to the maker in these cases to act responsibly - even if it means letting the deal fall through at times. Some deals are better left to fall through - trust me on this. 

But this is different. These guys are actually FRIENDS. So the big question in my mind right now is not in the petty details of who said what and who did what but will these friends take this unpleasant turn of events and put a positive spin on it? Will there be a happy ending? Will they decide to overcome any differences and misunderstandings and come up with a good solid deal for a good solid kitchen knife where each of them walks off happily and they can still remain friends? Because if they do - it means that love and friendship has won , common sense has prevailed , and both will come out of the whole ordeal happier about life. Seriously....all kidding aside - is there a happy ending to this?


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## mikedtran (Jun 10, 2017)

valgard said:


> Some of the details of the issue:
> 
> Mike originally purchased a stainless knife for $900 and received a
> $900 credit from that previous purchase to use towards the carbon. Again, that was a FULL refund...not partial.
> ...



Apologies for the poor grammar as I am on mobile and traveling at the moment. 

I would like to provide additional clarity on these specific points. 

-On the stainless knife, the maker offered it up and said that he would happily take it back for a full refund when my custom slot came up. Which is still a very kind offer. The reason I returned the blade early well before my custom slot was I found it performed poorly in comparison to most blades I owned. 

-On pricing I never got this breakdown (besides the the PayPal fees) so there was no clarity on what was charged. $40 for shipping seems high within the US, I ship most knives insured for ~$25. Additionally how there is $41 dollars in PayPal fees when the originally $900 was sent friends and family - I'm confused about as well. 

-On acknowledgement this is where I feel the most misalignment - the maker asked me to acknowledge the block was warped and that it might not work and that it might take extra belts - but never said anything about that impacting price. I very much asked him to go with it if he thought it would work, if not I was happy to go with a stock piece of wood. 

-I think it is fair for me to not think that price would be impacted since it was never brought up. I had also sent him this block over 6 months ago and there was no conversation about additional concerns or cost brought up. Really this comes down to clarity of communication and perception, so this is up in the air. 

I will say in converse of the makers surprise I was surprised that he did not want to have a discussion about it. I asked to talk about it and said I was asking about price to primarily to understand and his response was he did not have time to have a conversation about pricing. 

To be fair he did offer to send the knife without additional fees, but honestly it's the begrudging aspect of that offer and not the money that bothered me. If what I cared about was money I would have taken this offer. 

As most who know me over years know I try my best to bring positivity only forward, these are probably the least positive things I have posted on the internet ever. As such I don't think I will be responding to this thread again even if information might paint me in a bad light. 

I originally started this thread to get a better understanding and I think that was accomplished. I think we hopefully are all better for it. I believe as people we are driven by a concept of fairness and I totally can see why myself and the maker both felt like things were unfair and hence lead down this road. 

On the side of his specific incident this is probably no benefit in diving into it deeper on the forums.


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## malexthekid (Jun 10, 2017)

Fairness is a wonderfully subjective thing. 

And makes me ponder are you still trying to suggest you were treated unfairly when it seems that this is a much more complex equation than just "he asked for more money".

Faults lie with both sides... my only problem is with the apparentness, and I say this only as a perception not knowing if it is real, that you were kind happy to take his generosity and friendship when it was in your favour but as soon as he tried to request some leveling then it was suddenly purely a business transaction.

And I only comment but it is an undercurrent that happens a lot. And a few of the makers have alluded to it being part of the process which is true. It seems quite a few love the "friendship" with the maker aspect and are happy to exploit in their favour but when they realise it must be a two way street it is straight on the forums to vent about their "bad" experience.

But you are right Mike earlier communication may have solved this totally. Or may have just allowed a more amicable parting of ways.


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## Jkts (Jun 10, 2017)

Sounds like an evolving deal- the not quite right handle required extra effort and the maker asked for added compensation rather than staying silent. Money is always a sensitive item. Mike asked for an explanation and it wasn't clear.

Custom knife making involving handles that the maker doesn't pick must be a tricky business. The maker wants to make the customer happy- it's kind of an ongoing negotiation- even taking the picture and saying it might not work but trying.

Both sides here acted in good faith- mike paid, the maker created the knife but felt the product ended taking more effort and time, mike questioned the added cost, the maker gave him a choice to take it without the increase and also an out. 

If the higher price had been set from the beginning, both probably would have walked away happy. However, the work involved and cost is unknown because of the handle. 

Seems like both sides acted reasonably and fair.


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## panda (Jun 11, 2017)

think of it this way. if you ordered a lobster tail at a restaurant for $50, but then the server comes back after it's already cooked and says 'the chef says you have to pay $60 because you wanted it basted with butter, so we have to charge for the extra butter to cook it that way" how do you think you or any one else would respond?


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## malexthekid (Jun 11, 2017)

panda said:


> think of it this way. if you ordered a lobster tail at a restaurant for $50, but then the server comes back after it's already cooked and says 'the chef says you have to pay $60 because you wanted it basted with butter, so we have to charge for the extra butter to cook it that way" how do you think you or any one else would respond?



Bit over simplistic... but sure if that suits your agenda.


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## milkbaby (Jun 11, 2017)

Wow, this thread has it all... almost too much since now it's not so hard to ID the maker in question.

I am a collector AND a hobby maker, so I feel like I can see both sides. As somebody who's commissioned custom knives, I've pretty much just told the maker what I like in a knife and what I usually cut and my preferred cuts (push cuts, etc), and then let them run wild as part of the fun is what the maker will come up with. If I'm not totally thrilled with the knife, well that's just the gamble I took. On the other hand, I wouldn't be happy to be charged extra after agreeing to a price beforehand. 

As a maker, there are plenty of opportunities for things to go wrong due to bad luck or mistakes. That's just how the cookie crumbles. Being a hobbyist, I don't depend on making knives for a living or even as a supplement to my income, so I am free to make whatever I please, and I don't foresee accepting custom commissions anytime in my near future. But if I did, I would definitely eat the cost of any problems on my end whether losing a knife in heat treat or having to use extra belts. If you're not charging enough to cover bad luck and mistakes, in my opinion you're not charging enough period.


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## apicius9 (Jun 11, 2017)

This may be redundant for many of you, but let me remind you of just some of the steps and potential sources of costs for a knife maker:

- investing in buying and maintaining tools, usually in the thousands of $$ range without guarantee of ever amortizing your investments.
- Time for researching and sourcing the appropriate building materials, including the cost for errors in judgement or unreliable sources. 
- Cost and shipping for materials.
- Price and shipping for consumables (belts, drills, epoxy, cleaning materials, spacers, other glues/epoxy, filters, protective gear/masks, buffing compounds, buffer wheels, finishing & polishing materials, belts, packing materials, special tools, and more belts)
- Overhead (rent for shop space, electricity, water etc), sometimes parking cost, driving cost to buy materials
- computer cost, web service cost, vendor privileges on forums cost
- time for communicating with customers, time for taking and posting pictures to select materials or show progress.
- actual time for working on a piece, cleaning up after each step, time for changing equipments, tools, materials for each step, time for packing, going to the post office etc. 
- added cost to buffer for things that can and will go wrong with or without being the fault of the maker - cracking horn/wood/ivory; other material flaws that ruin pieces, e.g. cracks in a wooden handle only showing up when already working on the final finish; cracking metal blanks, ripping belts, breaking drills; almost done pieces grabbed by the buffer and smashed into a wall, breaking into pieces (ask me how I know...). 
- doing things over and over again because they are not 'perfect' at the first attempt. 
- And all this does not even include any compensation for the hundreds or thousands of hours a maker invested into the learning process of his/her craft. 

Each and every one of those can vary for each individual order. Every time you get quoted a price, it is an educated guess by the maker, but a guess that juggles sometimes dozens of variables. I am quite sure that no maker is out to betray you out of your hard-earned money. But it is hard work for a maker also, and from what I understand when talking to customers, they don't even see at least half the factors that translate into a financial risk for a custom maker. It is much easier and safer to make and sell knives after your own ideas than to custom-taylor them to the needs or ideas of a customer. While this is, in my eyes, also an enjoyable process, it can be very time consuming. If making knives pays for your bills, there is only so much risk you can take before you have to cancel health insurance for your kids or beg relatives to help you out - and those are not theoretical examples. 

Again, not asking for pity for knife makers, and I see that a business transaction has to follow a certain number of 'rules'. But I fully understand what I read from Robin's statement, what I heard from others, and what my own experience is: There is much less cost and risk in just making and selling things than in taking on custom orders. As someone dabbling in handles, I calculated that I would be better off in terms of profit margins and time invested if I just sold my wood rather than investing time into making handles. I am sure that many knife makers would come to similar conclusions. 

Communication is certainly an important aspect and essential in the custom order process. And I understand that changing prices after an initial quote will never be popular. But I can also understand that a maker can never anticipate all of the points above - and more - and it is not an exact science but an artisanal process. You would never insist to pay a painter by the hour and the cost of the paint for a picture, why do you expect that from an artisanal knife maker?

Just 2 more cents...

Stefan


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 11, 2017)

Caveat emptor! Ian, Robin and Don your now on my A list when the time comes - you all have defined professionalism.


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## Salty dog (Jun 11, 2017)

I don't pay that much attention to the forums as I used to so I have no clue who the maker is or know anything about the buyer. However, after purchasing several knives from "custom makers" I've learned a few things.

Each maker has a general style, pick a maker who's work is similar to the style you're looking for. Keep it in his wheel house.
Let the maker provide the materials and use products he's familiar with.
Establish a report with the maker and make sure the cost is agreed upon.
Don't expect perfection. I use what I call the "Chico" rule, don't rely on first impressions, chances are you'll grow to love it.
If the knife isn't what you hoped for chances are you can discreetly sell it without a loss. Chalk it up to the game.
Don't air dirty laundry in public.


P.S. I used to do commissioned art, much like a custom knife there's a lot of pressure placed on the creator. I am of the belief that when you paint for yourself the end result is special. I would expect the same is true with knife makers. Let them do their thing, feel it.


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## Andrew H (Jun 11, 2017)

Like Salty, I haven't been around the forums much recently so I don't know the maker in question or know OP. 

I've never had a situation like this arise (many orders across different smiths). I assume many mistakes don't make it into the final product and that that's factored into the agreed upon price. Said another way: to all the makers on this forum, if everything worked every time and you never lost time / material, could you lower your prices and still make the same profit?


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## jessf (Jun 11, 2017)

There's the rub. Something several have alluded to before is that pro makers get paid for their experience and the buyer pays on a scale relative to that experience. I agree, but only when the product reflects a pro level of complexity and refinement.

if the end product is the same, one could argue that both knives could be sold at the same price. The pro does it in half the time and with fewer errors and the new maker comes out at a loss in both time and money. Street cred and speculation also drive price.


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## cheflivengood (Jun 11, 2017)

I tried to read everything before posting this, as always robin, ian, don have smart contributions and business models (sorry if I missed someone). Here is the solution. 

Everytime I get a new tattoo, I use the same artist. And every time I go to the shop weather its been 2 months or two years, 2 pieces of paper are filled out. Medical history and a general liability contract. My Tattoo artist is not technologically gifted or does he have a degree in business, he's just one of the best artist in the city if not the country. This paper work is now industry standard since people have either gotten sick, or had something misspelled, either way mistakes were made on both sides for forever until someone said maybe we should get a lawer. 

A general contract for a custom knife could include:
- General price quote with a "%" buffer that would allow for unseen circumstances that require additional payment. Very similar to a general contractors
-The contract would outline the scope of work, with dimensions, materials. So if the maker gives you a 240 laser instead of a heavy duty workhorse, thats a breach in contract.
- At any time the customer wants to change the scope of work the maker could build in a 2-5% increase in the build for the inconvenience of having to re-do the contract, whisshy washy customers often change their minds so many times its no wonder the maker doesn't get it right all the time. 
-The contract could have late fee penalties for the maker if they are way over their quoted time frame either from time of quote of from when the begin to execute the project. 

Well im out of ideas and have to cook some curry.


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## mikedtran (Jun 11, 2017)

I had two last positive things to add to this thread which is my two awesome experiences with custom makers.

#1 I have been working with and been good friends with Chadd Smith for quite sometime now and working with Chadd is incredible. He is completely communicative through the process and if there were any modifications/changes that would increase price he made sure to let me know and I was more than happy to pay, as I want to support both Chadd personally and knife makers as a group. I am beyond excited about the knife Chadd made for me which arrives tomorrow!!! (feel like a kid ready for Christmas)

#2 The other maker I worked with who I had a beyond great experience with is Dan Prendergast. He is always stoked to get into a nerdy knife chat and his knife is also the best performer I own and in the top 2 or 3 of knives I have tried.

What I value most coming out of both these experiences is not the knife, but rather what I have learned both about knives generally and more importantly learned about the person who is the maker.

I really do hope this thread doesn't discourage people from custom makers and that it actually makes the community better as a whole.


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## Customfan (Jun 12, 2017)

Ok, Salty...

Gotta ask, elaborate on the ¨Chico¨ rule? What is it?.... If you cant see it from a certain distance then its not worth making a big fuzz over it? ;-)

A lot of good advice here, like the part about keeping it in the makers realm of what he feels comfortable working with, reduces mistakes and letting the maker run with it. 

I´ve always found that good will and communication reduce or eliminate any potential issues, sometimes even a bit of compromise as well?


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## Salty dog (Jun 12, 2017)

Customfan said:


> Ok, Salty...
> 
> Gotta ask, elaborate on the ¨Chico¨ rule? What is it?.... If you cant see it from a certain distance then its not worth making a big fuzz over it? ;-)
> 
> ...



When I was a firefighter I transferred to a new house and one of my new housemates was Chico, a loud, stupid weight lifter type. Annoying as hell. Once I got to know him I ended up loving him. We crawled into many burning buildings together. (RIP Chico.)

[video=youtube;7jc4-8yKQZk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jc4-8yKQZk[/video]


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## Customfan (Jun 12, 2017)

Cool story, thanks for sharing and quite an endearing message... got a bit of the feels with that video!.... RIP Chico....


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## Godslayer (Jun 12, 2017)

I am going to be 100% honest here, if any maker tried to tell me I need to pay them 200 bucks extra at the end of the transaction, I would tell them to blow me, I consider it a gentlemans agreement when we agree upon pricing and continue forward, obviously pricing can be adjusted if person x wants extras, when I ordered mammoth on my HHH I paid an additional fee for the material + an additional fee for added labour, that makes sense. But had at completion of the blade randy of demanded extra funds for whatever reason(I know he messed up the first of two billets) I would of laughed at him, had he of refused to ship the blade before receiving additional funds I would of flamed him here, on IG and on FB. I am not quick as refined as MT with these matters, it is disrespectful of the seller and in my opinion destroys his/her credibility. I digress, I hope you get this figured out and obtain your blade, also 170 for rosewood seems excessive unless he already had the handle made and you had him rip off scales and start from scratch. Also if the price got reduced by a set rate in a linear fashion when a maker was late, I would probably have a few free knives in my collection lol, imagine pierre lol


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## malexthekid (Jun 12, 2017)

Funny you talk of disrespectful to you but make no consideration of the maker. 

And gentleman's agreement infers mutual respect. Aka if the maker goes above and beyond or incurs an unforseen cost the gentleman's thing to do would be to compensate or part compensate him... 

You can't have it both ways. If you want to treat it like a business exchange then you should be putting in clear guidelines. If you want it to be collaborative and gentlemanly then you have to wear this happening.

It also seems that most on here are happy to screw the makers out of their profit and lump it is "the cost of business"


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## Godslayer (Jun 12, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Funny you talk of disrespectful to you but make no consideration of the maker.
> 
> And gentleman's agreement infers mutual respect. Aka if the maker goes above and beyond or incurs an unforseen cost the gentleman's thing to do would be to compensate or part compensate him...
> 
> ...



It's a sale, purely business, if I get an order a car and say it costs 25k but the dealership ships one in and the car gets damaged, should I be expected to buy two cars or the cost of repairs if salvageable? The restaurant example is the same basic idea, if cook a messes up your dish and has to refire should you be billed twice? That would be ludicrous, it's common sense to build a buffer in of x% to cover these errors and mistakes, that's how business works, if a maker wants to include a contract that says upfront if I mess up you will be billed again or for x% that would also be fine, although I can almost guarantee that maker would fail unless they were some god tier, bill burke, kramer level guy who could get away with that nonsense. Saying that if I fudge up and can't get the funds agreed upon the maker should have the right to sell said blade after a sensible period, my part of the agreement is to pay the agreed upon sum, his part is to provide me with the good/service I paid for.


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## Customfan (Jun 13, 2017)

Anyone had those new Weid flavor potato chips? 

I like the real spicy cheetos.... anyone like those?

Know they are not good for me but still crave them time to time...


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## Customfan (Jun 13, 2017)

They have these that have these very strange names like "everything explosion" and these days I think you can even name your own flavor, what is that all about? How can they pull that off? :sad0:

Is that extra? Do they halt the whole process just to make your own Bag? Or do you like win a contest and now everyone is stuck with your weird flavor:

banana-ham-mint? 

Or avocado-pear-sardine?

Need answers people! &#128540;&#128514;


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## JaVa (Jun 13, 2017)

Never had those. Would love to try. I'm a sucker for potato chips. Just about my only vice these days. Yep not good for you, but what can you do? :hungry:


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## Customfan (Jun 13, 2017)

Thats the thing...... agreed, my only vice as well! Is it wrong to indulge?

I mean, there is such a thing too health conscious, right?


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## JaVa (Jun 13, 2017)

RIGHT! :doublethumbsup:


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## WildBoar (Jun 13, 2017)

I am a little confused between "gentlemens' agreement" and "verbal contract"... Because what is described in some of the posts above when agreeing to price, etc. sure seems like a verbal contract. Always best to follow up the verbal agreements with confirmation in an email though.


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## DaveInMesa (Jun 13, 2017)

There have been excellent points made on both sides of this discussion, but what it really comes down to is professionalism. It is a very bad idea to do business of this kind (anything involving custom work and risk of financial loss) with a friend. If you're friends first, before one person becomes the others' customer, it's _extremely _hard to keep things on a professional level and, what no one has mentioned is that, people who go into knifemaking as a business are not likely to be the most skilled business people. Their skills, talents, and interests lie in a completely different direction. As a general rule of thumb, these people don't _want_ to be business people; they _have_ to be. That doesn't mean they're suited for it, and some may never become good at it. Most people aren't. 

Business people should never become "friends" with their customers. Friendly, yes; friends, no. Friends have different expectations from customers, as in this case. Customers don't expect business owners to spend all day responding to texts; friends do. Customers don't (or shouldn't) expect businesses to make change after change without additional cost; friends do. And business people need to draw those lines and not cross them, which is very hard to do with friends. 

I don't know who's right in this situation, but I know that both were at least partly wrong. The offer of the full refund on the stainless knife was outstandingly generous, and the buyer expected too much in addition to that. The maker was clearly offended by the buyer's attitude, but did a poor job of communicating. Extra belts? Maybe, but really, I think the issue was that he already wasn't making a dime on the deal and didn't know how to tell his friend that the friend was taking advantage of him. It wasn't a business issue, it was a personal issue, and we've all probably been on both sides of similar issues, at times.


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## JaVa (Jun 14, 2017)

:goodpost:

Absolutely agree with that, 100%!


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## Matus (Jun 14, 2017)

JaVa said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> Absolutely agree with that, 100%!



+1 

And I hope you guys will get it sorted and not loose your friendship over it.


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## Bigkev2828 (Jun 14, 2017)

panda said:


> think of it this way. if you ordered a lobster tail at a restaurant for $50, but then the server comes back after it's already cooked and says 'the chef says you have to pay $60 because you wanted it basted with butter, so we have to charge for the extra butter to cook it that way" how do you think you or any one else would respond?



Dude , this isn't even close to the same thing . I'm a chef and I know the skill it takes to make a lobster ... and I've also had the privilege to make a knife with a skilled maker ... something that take 12 mins to cook and something that takes a week maybe or longer are too different things ..... your argument is silly and doesn't make sense ...


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## Dan P. (Jun 15, 2017)

JaVa said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> Absolutely agree with that, 100%!



+2


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## chefcomesback (Jul 2, 2017)

Basic water hardening steel $10-20
Belts $5-10
Rosewood burl $60-$80
Asking more money for your incompetence.... priceless


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 2, 2017)

Bigkev2828 said:


> Dude , this isn't even close to the same thing . I'm a chef and I know the skill it takes to make a lobster ... and I've also had the privilege to make a knife with a skilled maker ... something that take 12 mins to cook and something that takes a week maybe or longer are too different things ..... your argument is silly and doesn't make sense ...



Why, exactly? Where is the line where the customer eats the cost of failure instead of the vendor?


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## Matus (Jul 2, 2017)

I am just wondering whether this thread has run its course and should be closed.


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## tsuriru (Jul 2, 2017)

Matus said:


> I am just wondering whether this thread has run its course and should be closed.



+1


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## malexthekid (Jul 2, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> Why, exactly? Where is the line where the customer eats the cost of failure instead of the vendor?



It depends... there is failure when you F something up you do day in and out (aka item of menu) then there is F*ing something up when a custom asks for a total different new concept, or brings in "their own lobster" for you to cook foe them... now for item 2 I would suggest a maker should be charging a 20% or more markup to cover his risk or to make it clear things may change.

This all gets muddied when we become friends with makers and designs morph with time. Makers here are very accommodating (though it seems the best from a business sense are not as accommodating and once she starts that is how your piece will be).

On that +2 on what matus said


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## rick alen (Jul 2, 2017)

Ric Furrer is a name rarely mentioned around here. For Wootz steel (real damascus) or layered work, and apparently affordable prices, you might want to check him out.
http://www.thebestthings.com/knives/tanaka.htm

His international rep would be for the documentary on the construction of the Viking "Ulfbert" sword.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/secrets-viking-sword.html


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