# Expected edge retention/how to tell you're sharpening correctly



## iimi (Sep 4, 2022)

I don't think I have an issue getting my knives sharp. I can get most of the knives in my bag to split a hair with a few minutes on the stones. But after one service, the edge isn't biting into my nail like it would right off the stones. Now, this would indicate that I'm not deburring correctly and I'm leaving a wire edge on, but the knife is sharp enough to cut paper towel. Within a few strokes on a stone, I can get that same knife to bite into my nail again, but again, after one longish service, it'll glide on the nail. Overripe cherry tomatoes also start to take a little bit of effort to cut, as I have to make sure I pull cut more than usual. The knife will hold this kind of edge for a few days at a minimum, depending on which knife it is, and it's perfectly useable on every product. It can get a little annoying on super fine bell pepper skin curls and stuff like that, but that's 80% technique anyways. Long winded explanation concluding, is there a way short of buying a digital microscope and inspecting my edges to check if I'm deburring correctly, or is this normal edge retention for the average line cook?


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## iimi (Sep 4, 2022)

Just a.quick side note, I have a ginsan knife that's held a really sharp edge for a couple of prep jobs, and I mean biting nail, cutting tissue paper sharp. AS, white #2, vg10, aus10, ps60 all have not held up as well.


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## M1k3 (Sep 4, 2022)

I've started looking at the edge under lights with my eyes. If I see glints of light, I need to do better.

This may not work for some. A loupe might help out.


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## Benuser (Sep 4, 2022)

Incomplete deburring, and especially a wire-edge, are indeed very likely. Other factors: the type of steel, the board, the food and the sharpening angle. A very thin soft carbon edge with acidic stuff on a poly board can't be expected to survive very long.


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## mpier (Sep 4, 2022)

Other issues maybe, over stropping, finishing stone as to high of a grit, foil edge or your angle is getting to low. There are so many variables but from what you have said it also my just be your steel type although your white #2 should hold up pretty well.


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## captaincaed (Sep 5, 2022)

Ive started doing a couple cuts into the cutting board after I'm done sharpening. Then I'll see if the edge has bite from heel to tip. If not, I had some burr left that folded over or tore off a weak edge. Back to the stone, I can often correct it pretty quickly. A nice way to get practical feedback.


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## iimi (Sep 5, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> Ive started doing a couple cuts into the cutting board after I'm done sharpening. Then I'll see if the edge has bite from heel to tip. If not, I had some burr left that folded over or tore off a weak edge. Back to the stone, I can often correct it pretty quickly. A nice way to get practical feedback.


I've tried deburring with high angle edge leading strokes, pulling through edge grain wood, parallel strokes with the burr down, etc. I can get the edge to keep biting after a few cuts, just not after a full shift.


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## Benuser (Sep 5, 2022)

What kind of knife is involved, what steel, what board material? Don't expect a softer carbon to keep its fresh from the stones sharpness after half a shift on a poly board.


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## iimi (Sep 5, 2022)

Benuser said:


> What kind of knife is involved, what steel, what board material? Don't expect a softer carbon to keep its fresh from the stones sharpness after half a shift on a poly board.


Yoshimi Kato AS is my most used knife, poly boards, a good amount of acidic foods cut like pineapple or even just a few pounds of onion. Again, I'm not sure if I'm not deburring correctly or if this is the expected level of sharpeness that most chefs use as a working edge. I can shave and all, but I'm just wondering if the failure to bite into my nail means I'm not deburring correctly.


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## Benuser (Sep 5, 2022)

Just a wild guess: the bevel's geometry may have to do with it. If it is strongly convexed it won't bite if kept straight. See how it cuts the finest cigarette paper. Whether it's a smooth, possibly silent cut.


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## captaincaed (Sep 5, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> I've tried deburring with high angle edge leading strokes, pulling through edge grain wood, parallel strokes with the burr down, etc. I can get the edge to keep biting after a few cuts, just not after a full shift.


I use this for razors - it’s not the highest magnification, but should start to give you an idea. Gotta use it at home at the computer, but it stays still, has good lighting, easy to adjust, plug and play, not too expensive.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DQM237K?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details



For the knife itself, AS steel is carbon, and pretty brittle, honestly. Sometimes it’s treated a little tougher, but on average, low toughness means it’ll not wear well on a hard poly board. If you have acidic foods, those teeth will degrade pretty quickly, even if the edge is still thin enough for produce like onions and cucumbers.

I’m all for continuing to learn to sharpen and deburr very well, especially at LOW angles. That’ll help keep it feeling sharper, longer. But if you can’t quite seem to find the right combinations of stone, knife and technique, in the short-term, it may be worth considering a simple stainless like Ginsan 3, AUS-8 or AUS-10. They’re all pretty available for solid working-price knives, hold up to abrasion and acid better than carbon steel. Just cuz super is in the name of the steel doesn’t mean it is always so. I’ve had a handful of AS knives over the years, and would only expect one or two to make it through a shift. (I cook at home now, but briefly worked in restaurants a looong time ago, so I’m ball-parking).


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## iimi (Sep 5, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> I use this for razors - it’s not the highest magnification, but should start to give you an idea. Gotta use it at home at the computer, but it stays still, has good lighting, easy to adjust, plug and play, not too expensive.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DQM237K?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
> ...


I do have an AUS-10 and a ginsan that hold up pretty well, but even they don't hold the teeth for more that a couple of shifts at most.


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## captaincaed (Sep 5, 2022)

@stringer seems to get some pretty good edge life in a pro kitchen, he may have some insights as well. @M1k3 will recommend zwear and diamond stones for sharpening, but may be overkill


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## stringer (Sep 5, 2022)

You probably aren't doing anything wrong. If you are really banging through bushels of produce at a time then you should expect touchups every couple of shifts at a minimum. There might be some super steels out there combined with some kind of jig or something that will produce scientifically better edges. Otherwise, thin edges and hard steel plus solid cutting technique to stretch the usefulness out when the edge starts to deteriorate is about the best you can do. Get the knife as thin as you can for the job at hand. Thinner behind the edge geometry feels sharper longer. Keep thinning until you see damage from regular use and then back off. Toughen it up with a small micro bevel. Once the geometry is perfect, practice doing touchups with as little metal removal as possible. Only a couple strokes at the beginning or ending of a shift or every couple of shifts to refresh the very apex/microbevel/cutting edge.

I've never used anything to look at the edge for knives or razors. But what you are describing for performance would not be atypical for someone who has a reasonable grasp of the fundamentals. From here all you can really hope for is incremental improvements. Visual inspection improvements may or may not help. But don't neglect your other senses too. Listen to how the different knives sound as your sharpening, how they feel on the stone. A fine ceramic honing rod with a light touch can be very useful for maintenance. I also like having pocket sized naturals for quick touchups. Soft Arkansas is cheap and readily available. A little coticule or aizu is even better if you can swing it. I find that the medium to medium fine grit naturals can refresh an apex quick without much need for further deburring.


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## iimi (Sep 5, 2022)

stringer said:


> You probably aren't doing anything wrong. If you are really banging through bushels of produce at a time then you should expect touchups every couple of shifts at a minimum. There might be some super steels out there combined with some kind of jig or something that will produce scientifically better edges. Otherwise, thin edges and hard steel plus solid cutting technique to stretch the usefulness out when the edge starts to deteriorate is about the best you can do. Get the knife as thin as you can for the job at hand. Thinner behind the edge geometry feels sharper longer. Keep thinning until you see damage from regular use and then back off. Toughen it up with a small micro bevel. Once the geometry is perfect, practice doing touchups with as little metal removal as possible. Only a couple strokes at the beginning or ending of a shift or every couple of shifts to refresh the very apex/microbevel/cutting edge.
> 
> I've never used anything to look at the edge for knives or razors. But what you are describing for performance would not be atypical for someone who has a reasonable grasp of the fundamentals. From here all you can really hope for is incremental improvements. Visual inspection improvements may or may not help. But don't neglect your other senses too. Listen to how the different knives sound as your sharpening, how they feel on the stone. A fine ceramic honing rod with a light touch can be very useful for maintenance. I also like having pocket sized naturals for quick touchups. Soft Arkansas is cheap and readily available. A little coticule or aizu is even better if you can swing it. I find that the medium to medium fine grit naturals can refresh an apex quick without much need for further deburring.


When you touch up, you're never deburring, correct? And now that I think about it, I think the large amount of herb chopping and chiffonades is also probably a big contributor to my edges not lasting more than a few days at a time. Thanks for the help, btw, I kinda have no reference to this anywhere around me because none of my coworkers really care much about sharpness or knife maintenance.


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## kpham12 (Sep 5, 2022)

stringer said:


> You probably aren't doing anything wrong. If you are really banging through bushels of produce at a time then you should expect touchups every couple of shifts at a minimum. There might be some super steels out there combined with some kind of jig or something that will produce scientifically better edges. Otherwise, thin edges and hard steel plus solid cutting technique to stretch the usefulness out when the edge starts to deteriorate is about the best you can do. Get the knife as thin as you can for the job at hand. Thinner behind the edge geometry feels sharper longer. Keep thinning until you see damage from regular use and then back off. Toughen it up with a small micro bevel. Once the geometry is perfect, practice doing touchups with as little metal removal as possible. Only a couple strokes at the beginning or ending of a shift or every couple of shifts to refresh the very apex/microbevel/cutting edge.
> 
> I've never used anything to look at the edge for knives or razors. But what you are describing for performance would not be atypical for someone who has a reasonable grasp of the fundamentals. From here all you can really hope for is incremental improvements. Visual inspection improvements may or may not help. But don't neglect your other senses too. Listen to how the different knives sound as your sharpening, how they feel on the stone. A fine ceramic honing rod with a light touch can be very useful for maintenance. I also like having pocket sized naturals for quick touchups. Soft Arkansas is cheap and readily available. A little coticule or aizu is even better if you can swing it. I find that the medium to medium fine grit naturals can refresh an apex quick without much need for further deburring.


Agree with all of this. I’ve used Yoshimi Kato AS at work and it holds up well, but still needed a touch up every couple of shifts.

What stone/grit are you finishing on? Getting an edge that cuts tissue paper is impressive, but an edge like that usually won’t hold long under hard use. I’ve found anything over about 3000 grit loses bite fairly quickly if you’re banging on hard poly boards.


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## stringer (Sep 5, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> When you touch up, you're never deburring, correct? And now that I think about it, I think the large amount of herb chopping and chiffonades is also probably a big contributor to my edges not lasting more than a few days at a time. Thanks for the help, btw, I kinda have no reference to this anywhere around me because none of my coworkers really care much about sharpness or knife maintenance.



I am very careful to minimize the burr as much as possible at each step so that there isn't a whole lot of burr development to have to deal with. The goal is to remove as little metal as possible to have the greatest impact on edge sharpness and retention. Time and metal are money. The more metal you remove and the bigger burrs you are building the faster your knife shrinks and the more time you spend sharpening. Knife nirvana is having a bunch of tools that are all dialed in and you have to buy projects to have something to sharpen. Touchups should be quick and not need much deburring. You want to extend the amount of time you need between cutting fresh bevels. Repeatedly cutting fresh bevels will make the knife thick and burn through sharpening stones and metal when you are sharpening multiple times per week. A knife that is dialed in nice can last through dozens of touchups without needing extended maintenance work. But if you get it too thin then you have to fix damage more often and that eats steel too. So like with everything is all about balancing the competing forces and practicing until you get better.


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## M1k3 (Sep 5, 2022)

When I cut lots of acidic food, I use something stainless or semi-stainless. Like Z-wear sharpened on diamond stones  (diamond stones aren't necessary but makes life easier).


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## Benuser (Sep 6, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> When you touch up, you're never deburring, correct?


When touching up I actually do exactly the same as when deburring. A few edge leading strokes on Belgian Blue, followed by a few strokes along the edge. True, that first edge leading strokes hardly raise a burr: that's the nature of the stone.


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## iimi (Sep 6, 2022)

Benuser said:


> When touching up I actually do exactly the same as when deburring. A few edge leading strokes on Belgian Blue, followed by a few strokes along the edge. True, that first edge leading strokes hardly raise a burr: that's the nature of the stone.


That's pretty much what I do with my cerax 3k.


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## Nemo (Sep 6, 2022)

Moving thread to Sharpening Station forum.


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## Benuser (Sep 6, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> That's pretty much what I do with my cerax 3k.


I don't know the stone. The advantage of the BB in this application is in not raising a burr that quickly. Most synthetics do abrade a burr, but raise a new one in the same time.


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## Nemo (Sep 6, 2022)

Benuser said:


> I don't know the stone. The advantage of the BB in this application is in not raising a burr that quickly. Most synthetics do abrade a burr, but raise a new one in the same time.


Yeah, the BB does seem to do a bit of the burr minimisation for you.


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## iimi (Sep 6, 2022)

Nemo said:


> Moving thread to Sharpening Station forum.


Thank you, I wasn't sure where to start the thread because it was either a sharpening issue or a general edge retention issue.


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## iimi (Sep 6, 2022)

Also, I'm happy to say that I seem to have at least somewhat figured out what was causing my edge to lose bite so fast, it was probably the stropping/overdoing the burr removal techniques. Last night I just did a few light edge leading strokes and some parallel passes and finished on some end grain, no stropping or further refinement, and at the end of the day it is still bitey (Kato AS). I put it through a lot of green onion curls, 10# or so of yellow onion slices, 7# of cooked chicken thighs, and a good chunk of my fingernail and index finger tip. Due to the last produce, I can attest that the knife is indeed sharp.


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## Rangen (Sep 6, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> Also, I'm happy to say that I seem to have at least somewhat figured out what was causing my edge to lose bite so fast, it was probably the stropping/overdoing the burr removal techniques. Last night I just did a few light edge leading strokes and some parallel passes and finished on some end grain, no stropping or further refinement, and at the end of the day it is still bitey (Kato AS). I put it through a lot of green onion curls, 10# or so of yellow onion slices, 7# of cooked chicken thighs, and a good chunk of my fingernail and index finger tip. Due to the last produce, I can attest that the knife is indeed sharp.



Glad you've found a path. I'm going to throw out one more pitfall. I don't know if it's affecting you, because I don't know what stones you're using.

I really like the Shapton Glass stones. They are fast with pressure, and finer than grit without pressure. This last is what can lead to trouble. Even the mid-grit Shapton Glass 1000 can yield an insufficiently-scratchy edge, if I spend too much time on it, doing my usual thing of backing off on the pressure as I go on. Great edge, but no longer toothy.

I've found better luck (with knives, not razors) by finishing on something with some scratch to it. That way, no matter how much time I find I need to spend, no matter how light my pressure gets, I still get a scratchy edge. Some JNats work that way, even suitas of quite fine average grit. But in a more reasonable price range, soft arks, as recommended by Stringer, do this beautifully. I have a Dan's soft ark that does this so well it seems like cheating. My washita performs similarly.


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## Benuser (Sep 6, 2022)

Excellent news. Corresponds to what may be expected from well-treated AS. As thin as possible behind the edge, and ending with a more or less conservative edge. That is at least my experience.
Overly stropping is indeed likely to create a new, fresh burr — not just assembling all old debris. I don't find it always simple to make the difference. Perhaps by stropping on the hand palm: as far as I know unlikely to create a new burr, but efficient enough to collect burr remnants.


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## Kawa (Sep 6, 2022)

For the chefs/ former chefs:

Lets say you start a shift with unions, are your knives still as sharp at union 20-30 as it was at union 1?
And I really mean that same fresh of the stone/strop?

My reference is less then zero, so I really don't know what to expect from myself on edge retention. 

My knives behave like the very opening post, only I cook way less per day (home meal for 2). I thought it was normal to loose that true 100% sharpness rather quickly, but the knive holds like 90% of the sharpeness a very long time.


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## iimi (Sep 6, 2022)

Rangen said:


> Glad you've found a path. I'm going to throw out one more pitfall. I don't know if it's affecting you, because I don't know what stones you're using.
> 
> I really like the Shapton Glass stones. They are fast with pressure, and finer than grit without pressure. This last is what can lead to trouble. Even the mid-grit Shapton Glass 1000 can yield an insufficiently-scratchy edge, if I spend too much time on it, doing my usual thing of backing off on the pressure as I go on. Great edge, but no longer toothy.
> 
> I've found better luck (with knives, not razors) by finishing on something with some scratch to it. That way, no matter how much time I find I need to spend, no matter how light my pressure gets, I still get a scratchy edge. Some JNats work that way, even suitas of quite fine average grit. But in a more reasonable price range, soft arks, as recommended by Stringer, do this beautifully. I have a Dan's soft ark that does this so well it seems like cheating. My washita performs similarly.


I just so happen to have a Dan's soft ark sitting unused.......


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## EricEricEric (Sep 6, 2022)

BINGO! 

Also, cut some paper.

If there is a wire edge etc then the sharpness will drop off very suddenly 




M1k3 said:


> I've started looking at the edge under lights with my eyes. If I see glints of light, I need to do better.
> 
> This may not work for some. A loupe might help out.


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## iimi (Sep 6, 2022)

EricEricEric said:


> BINGO!
> 
> Also, cut some paper.
> 
> If there is a wire edge etc then the sharpness will drop off very suddenly


I think I wasn't having an issue with a wire edge, since the sharpness itself wasn't falling off as much as the bite was, which I have learned is very different from actual sharpness.


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## Rangen (Sep 6, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> I just so happen to have a Dan's soft ark sitting unused.......


I will be very interested to hear your experiences when you break it out and see how it does, and I'd bet I'm not the only one who would love to hear that story.


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## iimi (Sep 6, 2022)

Rangen said:


> I will be very interested to hear your experiences when you break it out and see how it does, and I'd bet I'm not the only one who would love to hear that story.


When my knife loses it's bite I'll try a few strokes on the Arkansas and update results. Now that I think about it, I think I may have a Dan's hard Arkansas and a not a soft, but regardless I want to try it out.

Edit: it is, in fact, a soft.


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## captaincaed (Sep 6, 2022)

I've found the soft is easier to use for touch ups. You need less precision, is a little more forgiving than a hard ark.

Stropping has always reduced tooth/bite for me. I've never found a way to make it help that, but I'm no pro, but I have the same experience. For what it's worth I _think_ Jon Broida isn't a huge fan for the same reason.


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## Benuser (Sep 7, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> I've found the soft is easier to use for touch ups. You need less precision, is a little more forgiving than a hard ark.


I'd tend to say, with my limited experience with Arks, the soft ones allow an easier catch of the bevel. But much depends on the stone's finish: for grasping a burr a glossy stone is almost useless. I keep the Belgian Blue I use for the same purpose slightly rough with an Atoma.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 11, 2022)

Honestly if you want a knife that will hold up a bit longer I think getting something from a maker like @Troopah_Knives or @Deadboxhero could be a good choice.

Otherwise. Check your edges under a microscope to truly make sure you aren't leaving an extremely small burr behind. That can give the illusion of a sharp edge, then quickly fold over in use.


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## mengwong (Sep 11, 2022)

Vadim Kraichuk’s short book on knife deburring is eye-opening… it really expanded my mental model for what’s going on down at those last few microns. A proper edge will stand up to perpendicular use well beyond your intuition. The challenge is building that proper edge.

Knife Deburring 6th edition: Science behind the lasting razor edge - Kindle edition by Kraichuk, Vadim. Crafts, Hobbies & Home Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.


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## iimi (Sep 12, 2022)

I've been able to get an edge that will last a few services, but after that, it'll start to catch and not cleanly go through thin bell pepper skins. Basically everything else, it'll still handle fine. I've started carrying a ceramic homing rod, and a couple of strokes is enough to bring back enough bite to go through the skins easily once again, and that'll retain for another day. Touch ups are easy, too, just a few alternating edge leading strokes on a 3k cerax and quick deburring process just to make sure I have a clean edge. I check for burr removal by running through edge grain wood, and the improvement in technique is evident from the lack of dark metal caught in the wood, whereas earlier on I would see a dark discoloration where the wire edge was being stripped off. I also check the edge with a loupe, but that seems pretty unnecessary. I can cut circles in receipt paper, get curls off a hair follicle, etc and it's only a couple of minutes touching up, so I'm pretty happy with where I'm at. I did try the Arkansas soft, and while it gave me even more bite, it was also a pain to use because i have a tiny ass stone. The edge also seems to last longer on a 3k, but that could just be me not getting used to the novaculite.


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## Troopah_Knives (Sep 12, 2022)

If I were to guess this sounds a lot more like a blade geometry issue than a deburring issue I would take a very careful look at all of the blade geometry and bevel sizes and see if you notice any themes


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## iimi (Sep 12, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> If I were to guess this sounds a lot more like a blade geometry issue than a deburring issue I would take a very careful look at all of the blade geometry and bevel sizes and see if you notice any themes


Hm. Do you think I'm sharpening at too low of an angle overall? I can try to upload some pics of the knives in question, too. My blades range from lasers to 200g+ fairly chunky sanjo grinds. By bevel size, you mean the edge bevel and not the blade road I'm assuming.


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## M1k3 (Sep 12, 2022)

I can definitely get 2-3 shifts of heavier prep out 52100, before I feel like the edge has degraded enough to debate touching it up. 4-6 shifts and there's no debate.

Z-wear is a whole other league (I'm going on 1.5 weeks without a touch up).


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## captaincaed (Sep 12, 2022)

Zdp and R2 are other good standards for "I don't want to sharpen often but also don't want to sharpen with diamonds". I only have one of each so I can't comment on brand. My only home petty is R2, gets used daily, and loses tomato-cutting teeth every 4-6 months. It's a pain to deburr well, but worth the effort. I've not sharpened my zdp ever in 3 years, but it doesn't get used a ton. In my kitchen, AS and 52100 get about 2 weeks of use before I want to touch them up to get teeth back on, if I'm prepping dinner for the family every night. That's assuming Thai food with plenty of woody herbs several nights, 4k edge.

I think a low sharpening angle is nice, if you're not rocking and twisting, or cutting too brutally. If.you're not chipping and breaking the edge under normal use, then it's not too obtuse, and the more acute the better for what you're looking for.


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## captaincaed (Sep 12, 2022)

Larrins article on loss.of.sharpness from abrasion has some compelling thoughts on sharpening angle. Granted he's not using tomatoes. Cutting card stock is a different cutting task, so keep.context in mind, but still.a very nice way to think of different factors affecting edge retention and cutting ability. Whatever those words mean to you. 









Maximizing Edge Retention - What CATRA Reveals about the Optimum Edge - Knife Steel Nerds


Thanks to Ed Schempp, Matus Kalisky, and Chin Lim for becoming Knife Steel Nerds Patreon supporters! Your support allows us to fund CATRA studies. CATRA Update 1/6/2020: I have since written more articles about CATRA looking at the effect of steel type: Part 1 and Part 2 Cutlery and Allied...




knifesteelnerds.com


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 12, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> Larrins article on loss.of.sharpness from abrasion has some compelling thoughts on sharpening angle. Granted he's not using tomatoes. Cutting card stock is a different cutting task, so keep.context in mind, but still.a very nice way to think of different factors affecting edge retention and cutting ability. Whatever those words mean to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I also read Larrins’s article and started to sharpen at lower angle. It improved the edge retention of my white steels by a lot. Previously I was sharpening at about 15 degree per side but now for white and blue steels I would do 8-10 degree per side.


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## Troopah_Knives (Sep 12, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> Hm. Do you think I'm sharpening at too low of an angle overall? I can try to upload some pics of the knives in question, too. My blades range from lasers to 200g+ fairly chunky sanjo grinds. By bevel size, you mean the edge bevel and not the blade road I'm assuming.


It really hard to say. This could easily be a too low or too high problem. Too low and it's possible that your apexes are rolling after the first use. Too high and the amount of material that needs to be abraded for the edge to feel dull is dramatically reduced. It could also just be the knives, wide secondary bevels can easily get rounded which reduces edge retention, and knives that are thick behind the edge really lean on their edge sharpness to cut well. Or it could be your sharpening in general and your Ginsan knife is simply a lot thinner behind the edge so it cuts well regardless.


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## iimi (Sep 12, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> It really hard to say. This could easily be a too low or too high problem. Too low and it's possible that your apexes are rolling after the first use. Too high and the amount of material that needs to be abraded for the edge to feel dull is dramatically reduced. It could also just be the knives, wide secondary bevels can easily get rounded which reduces edge retention, and knives that are thick behind the edge really lean on their edge sharpness to cut well. Or it could be your sharpening in general and your Ginsan knife is simply a lot thinner behind the edge so it cuts well regardless.


The ginsan is the thickest behind the edge, so I don't think that's the case. The first image is my Kato, second is a tsunehisa AUS10. At this point, I'm getting fairly similar edge retention out of all of them in terms of actual sharpness at the edge, as far as I can tell. I'm bad at taking choil shots and I know that it doesn't show everything, but for now this is what I got.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 12, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> Zdp and R2 are other good standards for "I don't want to sharpen often but also don't want to sharpen with diamonds". I only have one of each so I can't comment on brand. My only home petty is R2, gets used daily, and loses tomato-cutting teeth every 4-6 months. It's a pain to deburr well, but worth the effort. I've not sharpened my zdp ever in 3 years, but it doesn't get used a ton. In my kitchen, AS and 52100 get about 2 weeks of use before I want to touch them up to get teeth back on, if I'm prepping dinner for the family every night. That's assuming Thai food with plenty of woody herbs several nights, 4k edge.
> 
> I think a low sharpening angle is nice, if you're not rocking and twisting, or cutting too brutally. If.you're not chipping and breaking the edge under normal use, then it's not too obtuse, and the more acute the better for what you're looking for.


Really? I've only sharpened one example of r2. And it was a customers knife, but that was one of the best edges with the smallest amount of effort I had to put in a while at the time. I didn't even bother using compound to strop it, which for me is very rare, because I get impatient with deburring sometimes.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 12, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I can definitely get 2-3 shifts of heavier prep out 52100, before I feel like the edge has degraded enough to debate touching it up. 4-6 shifts and there's no debate.
> 
> Z-wear is a whole other league (I'm going on 1.5 weeks without a touch up).


And yeah. This is what I was getting at when I mentioned those two fine makers. Steels like cruwear, 4v, magnacut (probably best because knives loose sharpness through corrosion also), s110v, 10v, and the list goes on, will probably give the kind of edge retention that I would think is going to be at the top of the list for people doing shifts in a kitchen. 

Since troopah mentioned it in his post on instagram, aebl if it's hard enough will likely do better as well.


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## iimi (Sep 12, 2022)

If I didn't enjoy sharpening and buying knives, I would care more about touching up every few days, but honestly I enjoy sharpening a lot and I'll take coworkers' and friends' knives to sharpen for them. This was a worthwhile thread for me to start, I learned a lot and probably will learn more.


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## captaincaed (Sep 12, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Really? I've only sharpened one example of r2. And it was a customers knife, but that was one of the best edges with the smallest amount of effort I had to put in a while at the time. I didn't even bother using compound to strop it, which for me is very rare, because I get impatient with deburring sometimes.


Like I said I only have one so ‍♂

I have heard a bunch of people say they're easy and I've been tempted to try another to found out if I'm nuts or not (probably yes)


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## jwthaparc (Sep 12, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> Like I said I only have one so ‍♂
> 
> I have heard a bunch of people say they're easy and I've been tempted to try another to found out if I'm nuts or not (probably yes)


Well for me it's the same situation. It was only one knife, I've sharpened in that steel.

I really want to remember who made the knife. It was a very nice knife I remeber that. It might have been musashi. But I really can't say 100%, whoever it was killed it on the ht.


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## captaincaed (Sep 12, 2022)

.


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## M1k3 (Sep 12, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> If I didn't enjoy sharpening and buying knives, I would care more about touching up every few days, but honestly I enjoy sharpening a lot and I'll take coworkers' and friends' knives to sharpen for them. This was a worthwhile thread for me to start, I learned a lot and probably will learn more.


Cheap stainless will really get you to up your sharpening game. And test your patience.


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## Benuser (Sep 13, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Too high [an angle] and the amount of material that needs to be abraded for the edge to feel dull is dramatically reduced.


Doesn't correspond to my experience. The best edge retention I can get is with a very thin blade combined with a very conservative edge that adds a lot to the edge's stability, especially with AS.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 13, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Cheap stainless will really get you to up your sharpening game. And test your patience.


Can confirm. That or any Damascus blade labeled from "pakastan".


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## Barmoley (Sep 13, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Doesn't correspond to my experience. The best edge retention I can get is with a very thin blade combined with a very conservative edge that adds a lot to the edge's stability, especially with AS.


This sounds like, assuming no wire edge and such, that your edge dulls due to chipping or deformation/rolling when you lower the angle. In such a case conservative angle would improve edge retantuon. As long as your edge doesn't chip or deform, lower angle would increase edge retantion.


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## Matt Jacobs (Sep 13, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> Like I said I only have one so ‍♂
> 
> I have heard a bunch of people say they're easy and I've been tempted to try another to found out if I'm nuts or not (probably yes)


I have used a few Shiro Kamo's in R2, easy to sharpen and very nice/easy to deburr. My current petty is in R2 (perfect for a petty) and it is a ***** to deburr????


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## Matt Jacobs (Sep 13, 2022)

I wonder how much of this is cutting technique? I sharpen my Nakiri in 52100 maybe once a month and honestly that may even only be a couple of edge leading passes on a 2k stone. My brother in law used that knife for 2 meals after a fresh edge and it was destroyed. Flat spots, micro chipping all along the edge etc. I had to do a fairly in depth full progression and removed a burr that looked like a black thick hair the length of the blade. Its been about a month of 3-4 meals a week and the edge is still perfect in my hands. Dont discount how you cut, do you scrape hard across the board sideways, do you twist etc. My wife rock chops, her knife only dulls at the last 1/3rd of the belly right where the knife rocks.


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## iimi (Sep 13, 2022)

Matt Jacobs said:


> I wonder how much of this is cutting technique? I sharpen my Nakiri in 52100 maybe once a month and honestly that may even only be a couple of edge leading passes on a 2k stone. My brother in law used that knife for 2 meals after a fresh edge and it was destroyed. Flat spots, micro chipping all along the edge etc. I had to do a fairly in depth full progression and removed a burr that looked like a black thick hair the length of the blade. Its been about a month of 3-4 meals a week and the edge is still perfect in my hands. Dont discount how you cut, do you scrape hard across the board sideways, do you twist etc. My wife rock chops, her knife only dulls at the last 1/3rd of the belly right where the knife rocks.


I have pretty good cutting habits, I rock for mincing herbs but that's pretty much it. I use a bench scraper so I never scrape with the blade, no twisting, etc. The one time I've ever had microchipping was with a factory burnished edge through bacon that had a frozen spot in it.


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## Benuser (Sep 14, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> This sounds like, assuming no wire edge and such, that your edge dulls due to chipping or deformation/rolling when you lower the angle. In such a case conservative angle would improve edge retantuon. As long as your edge doesn't chip or deform, lower angle would increase edge retantion.


In general, yes. Simply because a thicker edge requires more force, resulting in a harder contact with the board. In the case I had in mind, this isn't the case. The backbevel is sharpened to zero. The edge itself is what a lot of people would call a micro-bevel — technically it is not, due to the absence of a secondary bevel. This is how I dealt with very poor poly boards in a welfare kitchen that dulled all other knives, especially soft carbons, as far as I could see by simple abrasion, and stainless ones by microchipping. The AS was in the 64Rc range.


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## Barmoley (Sep 14, 2022)

Benuser said:


> In general, yes. Simply because a thicker edge requires more force, resulting in a harder contact with the board. In the case I had in mind, this isn't the case. The backbevel is sharpened to zero. The edge itself is what a lot of people would call a micro-bevel — technically it is not, due to the absence of a secondary bevel.


Harder contact with the board is most likely part of it, but we see this phenomena of more acute angles staying sharper longer even when a machine cuts with the same force. I am sure there are special cases and maybe your case is that. In general we want as acute of an angle as the steel/heat treat can support without chipping or deforming for best edge holding. There is a discussion of this here Maximizing Edge Retention - What CATRA Reveals about the Optimum Edge - Knife Steel Nerds as well as in the later articles linked from this.


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## Benuser (Sep 14, 2022)

IIRC the Catra cutting goes through silica impregnated stuff, but doesn't end with board contact.


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## Barmoley (Sep 14, 2022)

Benuser said:


> IIRC the Catra cutting goes through silica impregnated stuff, but doesn't end with board contact.


Right. That’s why harder contact with the board can’t be the whole explanation. I still think that even in your case your dulling mechanism is most likely not wear.


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## Benuser (Sep 14, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> Right. That’s why harder contact with the board can’t be the whole explanation. I still think that even in your case your dulling mechanism is most likely not wear.


With Sabs, it was. As with Herder C75 @60Rc. With stainless: rolling with 4116 and 19C27, microchipping with SG2.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 14, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> Like I said I only have one so ‍♂
> 
> I have heard a bunch of people say they're easy and I've been tempted to try another to found out if I'm nuts or not (probably yes)


It was yu kurosaki. I ended up messaging the person that I sharpened the knife for, and asked him. 

He did a great job on that knife.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 14, 2022)

That's why ya gotta love magnacut. Tough, able to get fairly hard, corrosion resistant, and on top of that, decently wear resistant.

If larrin gets around to making a stainless 10v (or maybe vanadis 8, since that seems to be a bit more balanced). I think I'll just make that my go to for everything.


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## natto (Sep 14, 2022)

The edge width of the dulled knives ist interesting also. High angles become dull with less edge width... - from the CATRA test. From my limited experience @Barmoley and Larrin are right. So I had to revise my "sharpening model".



Barmoley said:


> This sounds like, assuming no wire edge and such, that your edge dulls due to chipping or deformation/rolling when you lower the angle. In such a case conservative angle would improve edge retantuon. As long as your edge doesn't chip or deform, lower angle would increase edge retantion.



There have always been some people claiming lower angles to make edges last longer. It looks like they have been right in some cases, depending on the wear.



Benuser said:


> Doesn't correspond to my experience. The best edge retention I can get is with a *very thin blade* combined with a *very conservative edge* that adds a lot to the edge's stability, especially with AS.


I don't get it. Are these quotes controversial, or different views at the same topic? If you are close to your optimum, lower angles might lead to chipping or deformation. But what about incresing the angles further? Will that improve edge retention?


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## Benuser (Sep 14, 2022)

natto said:


> The edge width of the dulled knives ist interesting also. High angles become dull with less edge width... - from the CATRA test. From my limited experience @Barmoley and Larrin are right. So I had to revise my "sharpening model".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps the context of my remark may clarify.


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## Troopah_Knives (Sep 14, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> Right. That’s why harder contact with the board can’t be the whole explanation. I still think that even in your case your dulling mechanism is most likely not wear.


I would agree here. even with the Sabs and Herder I think it is possible that you might have rolling just at a much smaller scale. Rolling and abrasion are very hard to differentiate. I usually just depend on what I expect to happen and if the edge isn't chipping assume that that is happening. Given that you are getting rolling and chipping on steels in a similar hardness range. I think considering the issue as if these two rolled might shed a little more light on the problem.


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## Benuser (Sep 14, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> I would agree here. even with the Sabs and Herder I think it is possible that you might have rolling just at a much smaller scale. Rolling and abrasion are very hard to differentiate. I usually just depend on what I expect to happen and if the edge isn't chipping assume that that is happening. Given that you are getting rolling and chipping on steels in a similar hardness range. I think considering the issue as if these two rolled might shed a little more light on the problem.


I have no problem in recognising rolling, thank you for your concern. Not sure the hardness was the determining factor.
No rolling, only wear Sabs 54, Herder 1922 60. Rolling Wüsthof 58, 19C27 60. Chipping SG2 62, and, forgot to mention Cromova 58. Non of those troubles AS 64.
P.S. Cromova managed to show both edge rolling, and chipping. The usual carbide clusters breaking out.


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## Troopah_Knives (Sep 14, 2022)

Benuser said:


> I have no problem in recognising rolling, thank you for your concern. Not sure the hardness was the determining factor.
> No rolling, only wear Sabs 54, Herder 1922 60. Rolling Wüsthof 58, 19C27 60. Chipping SG2 62, and, forgot to mention Cromova 58. Non of those troubles AS 64.


My point wasn't that you couldn't recognize it my point is that rolling on a very small scale is hard if not impossible to differentiate from wear without the use of some serious magnification equipment. Especially with a higher sharpening angle, the rolls could be tiny (on the scale of the low 10s of um) and thus could easily feel and look like a worn-down edge.


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## Benuser (Sep 14, 2022)

A unknown factor is the moment that I stopped using the knife and took another one. It wasn't exactly a scientific setting.


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## Delat (Sep 15, 2022)

moved - wrong thread


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## natto (Sep 15, 2022)

@Benuser 
Sorry, no offense meant.


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## Benuser (Sep 15, 2022)

natto said:


> @Benuser
> Sorry, no offense meant.


Of course not. Nothing to worry about.


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## Troopah_Knives (Sep 15, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Perhaps the context of my remark may clarify.
> View attachment 198575


I think this can actually line up with your experience(not that it necessarily does). Effectively by having a very thin blade you have reduced the maximum extent to which the edge can dull and the conservative edge keeps microchipping down. This sort of technique is something I have used in the past on steels with very low toughness to good effect. If you think of the scale a bit differently the grind of the blade could easily by <10˚ per side. So in a sense, you have the ultimate low edge angle and then micro it to add strength!


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## stringer (Sep 15, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> I have pretty good cutting habits, I rock for mincing herbs but that's pretty much it. I use a bench scraper so I never scrape with the blade, no twisting, etc. The one time I've ever had microchipping was with a factory burnished edge through bacon that had a frozen spot in it.


If that is all the micro chipping that you see that would be a clear indication to me that the knife can go thinner. 

I'm kidding but not really. It's all a balancing act. And if I don't see damage after a few shifts of hard work then I will know that the knife can handle a thinner edge. 

Whittling hairs doesn't have much to do with whether a knife feels staying sharp going through produce. For basil chiffonade and slicing sashimi that kind of edge can be great. But for general western cuisine veggie production, geometry is king. Like they are saying above, thin geometry behind the edge is key to feeling sharp and staying feeling sharp. More important than whatever is happening right at the apex or how cleanly you can cut circles in tissue paper.


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## iimi (Sep 15, 2022)

I actually bought another set of calipers because I lost my old ones to measure, think I'm at 1.16 mm at 10mm behind the edge but I'm going to measure more points.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 18, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> I actually bought another set of calipers because I lost my old ones to measure, think I'm at 1.16 mm at 10mm behind the edge but I'm going to measure more points.


Where are you directly behind the edge? 

In my mind 1mm 10mm above the edge, seems thickish, but not too terrible.


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## iimi (Sep 18, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Where are you directly behind the edge?
> 
> In my mind 1mm 10mm above the edge, seems thickish, but not too terrible.


I just got off my 7th shift in 4 days, so I will measure after a nice long shower and some fried flounder.


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## iimi (Sep 18, 2022)

At 1mm behind the edge, I'm getting between .14 and .16 mm thickness consistently.


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## Delat (Sep 18, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Where are you directly behind the edge?
> 
> In my mind 1mm 10mm above the edge, seems thickish, but not too terrible.


What value do you generally shoot for on a thinner knife? I’ve been curious about this measurement lately since I was thinking about thinning a knife and took a few measurements to figure out what to shoot for.

At midblade, 10mm above the edge:
Shibata bunka: .87
Yoshikane 210: .96
Shiro Kamo 210: .96
Myojin 180: 1.14
Kamon 220: 1.2

The Shiro Kamo surprised me as it feels about as thick through food as the Kamon, nowhere near the Yoshi (or Myojin) which has the same measurement. And the Yoshikane and Shibata feel just about the same through food to me.


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> At 1mm behind the edge, I'm getting between .14 and .16 mm thickness consistently.


Which are excellent values, as long as the steel holds it. At 5mm from there, 0.5-0.6mm for blades used in Western cuisine, with a lot of board contact.


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## iimi (Sep 19, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Which are excellent values, as long as the steel holds it. At 5mm from there, 0.5-0.6mm for blades used in Western cuisine, with a lot of board contact.


Yeah, I'm still not getting any microchipping.


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> Yeah, I'm still not getting any microchipping.


According to @stringer that would be a reason to go even further with thinning...


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## Nemo (Sep 19, 2022)

Benuser said:


> According to @stringer that would be a reason to go even further with thinning...


OP should check out some of @stringer 's durability testing threads.


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## iimi (Sep 19, 2022)

Nemo said:


> OP should check out some of @stringer 's durability testing threads.


Links?


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## Nemo (Sep 19, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> Links?


Google is your friend in this situation.

Although plugging "durability testing" and "stringer" into the forum search function will also work:






Search results for query: "durability testing"







www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## iimi (Sep 20, 2022)

Nemo said:


> Google is your friend in this situation.
> 
> Although plugging "durability testing" and "stringer" into the forum search function will also work:
> 
> ...


Those two threads were the ones I had found, was hoping there was more to read because it was informative.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 21, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> At 1mm behind the edge, I'm getting between .14 and .16 mm thickness consistently.


That is fairly thick for a kitchen knife. I recommend thinning until it's .010 at least behind the edge.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 21, 2022)

Delat said:


> What value do you generally shoot for on a thinner knife? I’ve been curious about this measurement lately since I was thinking about thinning a knife and took a few measurements to figure out what to shoot for.
> 
> At midblade, 10mm above the edge:
> Shibata bunka: .87
> ...


I usually don't measure that high up from the edge honestly. Generally I will thin directly behind it to around .010 or thinner. Honestly of the steel can handle it I will bring all the way to 0, then ad a microbevel. By the time I've thinned to that point I don't need to worry about 10 mm up from the edge.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 21, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> At 1mm behind the edge, I'm getting between .14 and .16 mm thickness consistently.


Oh woops my bad. I'm so used to seeing decimal values in imperial measurements not mm. Yeah that's likely fine. Actually I'll convert it and edit if not.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 21, 2022)

Ok. So I converted it to inches. 

.254 mm and under is usually good enough. Generally I don't like any kitchen knife. To be thicker than that.


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## iimi (Sep 21, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> That is fairly thick for a kitchen knife. I recommend thinning until it's .010 at least behind the edge.


Heard.


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## boblob (Oct 8, 2022)

Benuser said:


> When touching up I actually do exactly the same as when deburring. A few edge leading strokes on Belgian Blue, followed by a few strokes along the edge. True, that first edge leading strokes hardly raise a burr: that's the nature of the stone.


*interesting i deburr with edge leading strokes on the stone, what is the purpose of doing *"followed by a few strokes along the edge"
*by* "a few strokes along the edge"* i persume you mean what is john doing in the video*

*do you do those* "followed by a few strokes along the edge" also when using a metal honing rod ?


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## Benuser (Oct 8, 2022)

boblob said:


> *interesting i deburr with edge leading strokes on the stone, what is the purpose of doing *"followed by a few strokes along the edge"
> *by* "a few strokes along the edge"* i persume you mean what is john doing in the video*
> 
> *do you do those* "followed by a few strokes along the edge" also when using a metal honing rod ?



Not with a metal rod, still with a ceramic one. That said, metal rods I use are very fine, and I apply the lightest touch: I never found any trace of abraded steel. There is no flipping burr that has to get abraded.
That might be very different when dealing with grooved steels and some substantial pressure. If there's a remaining flipping burr you'll rapidly find out: depending on the steel type, either it breaks, leaving a moonscape behind, or it doesn't break but foils over the edge, making it instantly perfectly dull.


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## boblob (Oct 8, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Not with a metal rod, still with a ceramic one. That said, metal rods I use are very fine, and I apply the lightest touch: I never found any trace of abraded steel. There is no flipping burr that has to get abraded.
> That might be very different when dealing with grooved steels and some substantial pressure. If there's a remaining flipping burr you'll rapidly find out: depending on the steel type, either it breaks, leaving a moonscape behind, or it doesn't break but foils over the edge, making it instantly perfectly dull.


*interesting but what is the benefit of doing *"followed by a few strokes along the edge" *when deburring on the stone and not just doing edge leading strokes* ?


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## Benuser (Oct 8, 2022)

boblob said:


> *interesting but what is the benefit of doing *"followed by a few strokes along the edge" *when deburring on the stone and not just doing edge leading strokes* ?


Simply in catching the last burr remnants. Find out if it makes any difference in your case.


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## boblob (Oct 8, 2022)

Benuser said:


> metal rods I use are very fine, and I apply the lightest touch:


*do you use an oval metal rod ?
if so is it the same as using a circular rod or you do something differently?*


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## Benuser (Oct 8, 2022)

boblob said:


> *do you use an oval metal rod ?
> if so is it the same as using a circular rod or you do something differently?*


It is very long time ago I handled another than a oval rod. The oval ones are supposed to offer a larger contact area. A round one has a minimal contact area. Errors in manipulating, such as too high a pressure, are likely to be aggravated.


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## iimi (Oct 8, 2022)

Benuser said:


> It is very long time ago I handled another than a oval rod. The oval ones are supposed to offer a larger contact area. A round one has a minimal contact area. Errors in manipulating, such as too high a pressure, are likely to be aggravated.


I've been touching up occasionally with a few very light strokes on a ceramic rod and then stripping on my palm and that keeps it good for the rest of the shift, at least. I worked 80 hours last week with a new ginsan gyuto I rehandled and I think I lightly sharpened it twice after the initial sharpening to get past the factory edge, ceramic rod maybe once every couple of days.


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## Benuser (Oct 9, 2022)

Brakedeezbohnz said:


> I've been touching up occasionally with a few very light strokes on a ceramic rod and then stripping on my palm and that keeps it good for the rest of the shift, at least. I worked 80 hours last week with a new ginsan gyuto I rehandled and I think I lightly sharpened it twice after the initial sharpening to get past the factory edge, ceramic rod maybe once every couple of days.


I often use stropping in hand to move all debris to the other side where I can abrade them.


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## boblob (Oct 11, 2022)

Benuser said:


> It is very long time ago I handled another than a oval rod. The oval ones are supposed to offer a larger contact area. A round one has a minimal contact area. Errors in manipulating, such as too high a pressure, are likely to be aggravated.


very interesting i wasn't aware of that thank you for the comment
do you use the rod before the performance of the knife decreases or when it does ?


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## Benuser (Oct 11, 2022)

boblob said:


> very interesting i wasn't aware of that thank you for the comment
> do you use the rod before the performance of the knife decreases or when it does ?


My pleasure. I try to use my rods — Dickoron Micro & Polish — in time: before a noticeable decrease of performance. No big deal as a home user: feeling with my nail along the edge tells me it's time. That said, I steel prior to the use of the knife — not afterwards.


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## boblob (Oct 11, 2022)

Benuser said:


> My pleasure. I try to use my rods — Dickoron Micro & Polish — in time: before a noticeable decrease of performance. No big deal as a home user: feeling with my nail along the edge tells me it's time. That said, I steel prior to the use of the knife — not afterwards.


interesting i have a dickoron micro but i do not have a dickoron polish. 
i have only low hrc knives
and a grooved rod which i will now no longer use based on what you said in a few comments above.
i use the microfine dickoron rod when i see a decrease in the performance of the knife. i inspect the knife before i use it and if i see it as necessary i do a couple very light force only the weight of the blade on the dickoron rod and no more than 5 alternating sides strokes 
after that i use the knife to cut and before i use it next time i check again .....
again thank you for the comment @Benuser i remember you from a forum i used to read some time ago you mentioned the dickoron micro thats why i bought it also i miss reading the comments of Boar_De_Laze


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## boblob (Oct 12, 2022)

Benuser said:


> in time: before a noticeable decrease of performance. No big deal as a home user: feeling with my nail along the edge tells me it's time.


*do you use the nail check method as such ? like trying to shave a little piece of nail and see if the knife sticks to it or slides ?
also if i understand you correctly you do what i do , you use the knife then store it and at the next time you go to use it you check if it needs honing ?*


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## Benuser (Oct 12, 2022)

boblob said:


> *do you use the nail check method as such ? like trying to shave a little piece of nail and see if the knife sticks to it or slides ?
> also if i understand you correctly you do what i do , you use the knife then store it and at the next time you go to use it you check if it needs honing ?*


Not seeing whether it cuts. It does, don't worry. Feeling along the edge, from heel to tip, whether it feels equally smooth on both sides.


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## boblob (Oct 12, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Not seeing whether it cuts. It does, don't worry. Feeling along the edge, from heel to tip, whether it feels equally smooth on both sides.


this is how i check

sorry for not being able to understand the method you are referring to but do you do a sawing motion with the knife on your fingernail ?


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## Benuser (Oct 12, 2022)

boblob said:


> this is how i check
> 
> sorry for not being able to understand the method you are referring to but do you do a sawing motion with the knife on your fingernail ?



No, I move my nail on the bevel from heel to tip. On the bevel, not on the apex.


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## boblob (Oct 12, 2022)

Benuser said:


> No, I move my nail on the bevel from heel to tip. On the bevel, not on the apex. View attachment 202905


thank you for the illustration all this time i was thinking that you meant what Vincent does in the video here for illustration purpose i linked it

the finger nail test that you perform if it is not smooth on one side it means there is a burr or what does it indicate?


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## Benuser (Oct 12, 2022)

boblob said:


> thank you for the illustration all this time i was thinking that you meant what Vincent does in the video here for illustration purpose i linked it
> 
> the finger nail test that you perform if it is not smooth on one side it means there is a burr or what does it indicate?



In older literature it's being called the edge 'being out of true'. Whether such a thing does exist or not, when the side close to the very edge isn't smooth, it has to do with some damage or burr. I'm speaking of soft carbons here: easily slightly damaged, easily repaired. No drama as with harder steel types I wouldn't ever use the smoothest steel with.


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## boblob (Oct 13, 2022)

Benuser said:


> No, I move my nail on the bevel from heel to tip. On the bevel, not on the apex. View attachment 202905


do you use this nail method for detecting burr when sharpening on the stone ?


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## Benuser (Oct 13, 2022)

boblob said:


> do you use this nail method for detecting burr when sharpening on the stone ?


I use it for checking whether the edge is equally smooth on both sides, and to remove swarf with sticky stones, like the Naniwa Junpaku or a Coticule. 
A warning though: it is likely to have social consequences, as it damages your nail.
For a burr specifically, moving your nail perpendicular to the edge works the best for me.


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## boblob (Oct 13, 2022)

Benuser said:


> I use it for checking whether the edge is equally smooth on both sides, and to remove swarf with sticky stones, like the Naniwa Junpaku or a Coticule.
> A warning though: it is likely to have social consequences, as it damages your nail.
> For a burr specifically, moving your nail perpendicular to the edge works the best for me.


dear @Benuser thank you for the comment again i just wanted to ask you what do you think about this matter


Benuser said:


> In older literature it's being called the edge 'being out of true'. Whether such a thing does exist or not, when the side close to the very edge isn't smooth, it has to do with some damage or burr. I'm speaking of soft carbons here: easily slightly damaged, easily repaired. No drama as with harder steel types I wouldn't ever use the smoothest steel with.


when i use the dickoron micro i do not see almost any amount of metal residue or if i see its extremely small amount
so when me and you use the rod according to science of sharp article i read some time ago the way a metal honing rod works (a ribbed rod and a smooth) is by establishing a micro-bevel by adhesion and not abrasion.... 
hope to know what your thought are about this topic and what do you think happens when we use the dickoron micro ?
i will link the article so you will know what i am talking about








What Does Steeling Do? Part 1


It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.”




scienceofsharp.com


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## boblob (Oct 13, 2022)

boblob said:


> dear @Benuser thank you for the comment again i just wanted to ask you what do you think about this matter
> 
> when i use the dickoron micro i do not see almost any amount of metal residue or if i see its extremely small amount
> so when me and you use the rod according to science of sharp article i read some time ago the way a metal honing rod works (a ribbed rod and a smooth) is by establishing a micro-bevel by adhesion and not abrasion....
> ...


it is very interesting to know everyone's opinion on this matter


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## Benuser (Oct 13, 2022)

boblob said:


> dear @Benuser thank you for the comment again i just wanted to ask you what do you think about this matter
> 
> when i use the dickoron micro i do not see almost any amount of metal residue or if i see its extremely small amount
> so when me and you use the rod according to science of sharp article i read some time ago the way a metal honing rod works (a ribbed rod and a smooth) is by establishing a micro-bevel by adhesion and not abrasion....
> ...


"Traditional honing rods do not have sharp protrusions, and the metal swarf found on the surface is observed as flattened or smeared patches of metal. This type of metal removal (or transfer) is generally termed _adhesive wear_. Adhesive wear occurs at points of very high pressure that occur when the contact area is very small."
Not sure this might help us much further. In the article the smoothest rod is a round one, a butcher's, by Victorinox. I've found no trace of steel on my oval Dickorons used with the least abrasion resistant steel in the world. Oviously there is no very high pressure with very small contact area involved. Not sure either they create a microbevel. I know what it takes to remove a microbevel when sharpening and haven't noticed such a thing here.


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## boblob (Oct 13, 2022)

Benuser said:


> "Traditional honing rods do not have sharp protrusions, and the metal swarf found on the surface is observed as flattened or smeared patches of metal. This type of metal removal (or transfer) is generally termed _adhesive wear_. Adhesive wear occurs at points of very high pressure that occur when the contact area is very small."
> Not sure this might help us much further. In the article the smoothest rod is a round one, a butcher's, by Victorinox. I've found no trace of steel on my oval Dickorons used with the least abrasion resistant steel in the world. Oviously there is no very high pressure with very small contact area involved. Not sure either they create a microbevel. I know what it takes to remove a microbevel when sharpening and haven't noticed such a thing here.


very interesting @Benuser so do you suggest that the dickoron micro simply straightens the edge ?
if only todd could test the usage of a dickoron micro with his microscope


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## Benuser (Oct 13, 2022)

boblob said:


> very interesting @Benuser so do you suggest that the dickoron micro simply straightens the edge ?
> if only todd could test the usage of a dickoron micro with his microscope


I just don't know. My curiosity about using those steels with soft carbons comes from descriptions of old sharpening practices in France, where they were highly polished, AND the knives were permanently steeled. Using an even finely grooved steel makes no sense, as it fatigues the knife's steel. Working with a freshly sharpenend soft carbon on a crappy poly board was possible for say 45 minutes. Steeling with a grooved steel gave ten minutes more. Next steeling only a few minutes.
I found that those knives benefit from strongly convexed, highly polished edges if maintained with a polished steel. They offer a surprising good bite and are far from vulnerable.


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## boblob (Oct 14, 2022)

Benuser said:


> I just don't know. My curiosity about using those steels with soft carbons comes from descriptions of old sharpening practices in France, where they were highly polished, AND the knives were permanently steeled. Using an even finely grooved steel makes no sense, as it fatigues the knife's steel. Working with a freshly sharpenend soft carbon on a crappy poly board was possible for say 45 minutes. Steeling with a grooved steel gave ten minutes more. Next steeling only a few minutes.
> I found that those knives benefit from strongly convexed, highly polished edges if maintained with a polished steel. They offer a surprising good bite and are far from vulnerable.


very interesting i do not have any soft carbons just regular stainless steel knives in the range of 56-58 hrc i use the dickoron micro with them , is there anything better than the dickoron micro for those knives in your opinion ?


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## Kawa (Oct 14, 2022)

@Benuser
Your story about the polished Dickeron, and how you use it prior to wear on your soft carbons. I'm very enthousiastic to try this out.
Right now the wife cuts with dull crap stainless: I don't have the time to sharpen at this moment, so I can't test your way.

But, a little bit related to @boblob 's question:
Do you think that the polished will also work on soft stainless? Or do you find that it works specific on soft carbon only?
I don't have any experience with soft carbon, so I don't know how it compared to (soft) stainless regarding to using a rod..


edit: Or are you past the stage you have any crappy, soft stainless in your home ?


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## Benuser (Oct 14, 2022)

boblob said:


> very interesting i do not have any soft carbons just regular stainless steel knives in the range of 56-58 hrc i use the dickoron micro with them , is there anything better than the dickoron micro for those knives in your opinion ?


I'm no daily user of soft stainless, but from what I've seen, which complies with reports from our two German counterparts, I would say there's no better solution. Using a fine stone for touching up leads to edge instability, a grooved steel leads to fatigued steel. Have a light touch and use it in time. Think some three strokes per side.


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## Benuser (Oct 14, 2022)

Kawa said:


> @Benuser
> Your story about the polished Dickeron, and how you use it prior to wear on your soft carbons. I'm very enthousiastic to try this out.
> Right now the wife cuts with dull crap stainless: I don't have the time to sharpen at this moment, so I can't test your way.
> 
> ...


The polished one requires a lot of strokes with soft stainless. Better consider the Dickoron micro.


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## boblob (Oct 14, 2022)

Benuser said:


> and use it in time


this is my kind of problem i am not sure if i am using the dickoron at the optimal time or how i may check when is the optimal time
thank you @Benuser for all of the detailed explanations!!!


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## Benuser (Oct 14, 2022)

boblob said:


> this is my kind of problem i am not sure if i am using the dickoron at the optimal time or how i may check when is the optimal time
> thank you @Benuser for all of the detailed explanations!!!


You're most welcome! Don't overthink it. You will soon find out which is the best moment for steeling. Much more important: have a light touch.


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## mengwong (Oct 14, 2022)

"Why doesn't Superman like to use whetstones?"

Sorry, maybe this should be on the Dad Jokes thread.


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## boblob (Nov 7, 2022)

Benuser said:


> You're most welcome! Don't overthink it. You will soon find out which is the best moment for steeling. Much more important: have a light touch.


@Benuser
how do you clean your dickoron micro and prevent it from rusting ?
i just wipe it with tissue paper after using .... dont know if its optimal
what is your method ?
thank you for the help


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## Benuser (Nov 7, 2022)

boblob said:


> @Benuser
> how do you clean your dickoron micro and prevent it from rusting ?
> i just wipe it with tissue paper after using .... dont know if its optimal
> what is your method ?
> thank you for the help


You're most welcome. To have it to rust you first should be able to damage the outer layer, which isn't simple at all. Nothing to worry about. Don't use it with dirty knives and you won't have to really clean it either. Your tissue paper will do.


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