# Copper cookware wisdom



## Nemo (Aug 7, 2021)

In the best enabling tradition of KKF, the recent "recommend a high end frypan" thread has got me thinking about trying some copper cookware.

I'm interested in people's experience and thoughts on:

1) What type of cooking does copper make sense for? I'm thinking that frying fish might make good use of copper's increased responsiveness but searing meat might still be re better on steel or cast iron? Is it any better than a decent stainless saucepan for steaming or boiling water? How is it for braises? Does the improved conductivity reduce the likelihood of burning food on the base to a significant degree?

2) Stainless lining vs tin. I kinda like the idea of traditional (tin) but is it too hard to use and maintain?

3) Thickness of the copper layer. Is 1.5mm or 2mm enough? 

4) Any hints or tips on how to use them given that I'm used to using (aluminium-basesd) SS, carbon steel and enamelled cast iron cookware.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Michi (Aug 8, 2021)

Do you cook on gas or electric? On an electric stove, some of the advantages of copper are wasted; a pan with slightly less conductivity will perform just as well because the element distributes heat quite evenly to begin with.

The few times I cooked with copper pans on gas, I was impressed. But I would still get something that is stainless clad and has a copper disk in the sandwich. While copper is pretty, it also is pain to keep looking pretty…


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## Nemo (Aug 8, 2021)

Michi said:


> Do you cook on gas or electric? On an electric stove, some of the advantages of copper are wasted; a pan with slightly less conductivity will perform just as well because the element distributes heat quite evenly to begin with.
> 
> The few times I cooked with copper pans on gas, I was impressed. But I would still get something that is stainless clad and has a copper disk in the sandwich. While copper is pretty, it also is pain to keep looking pretty…


Mostly on gas.

I was considering a clad pan but I like the idea of the traditional aspect of copper.


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## Justinv (Aug 8, 2021)

Tin lining needs to be replaced periodically and unless you live in france that is a pain. Some like old heavy tin lined copper. I think stainless lined 2.5mm is the way to go. Just let the exterior patina, zero maintenance. 

There is no reason to use copper pots to boil water.

Well seasoned carbon steel skillets have better food release but they don’t heat evenly. Pick your preference. If sautéing skin on chicken thighs, my preference is carbon steel skillet. If those thighs are getting braised then I would go for a copper sauté pan.

As far as your other question, aluminum pans clad with stainless can work well too. I have a mix of all-clad and copper. I use whatever is the appropriate size but prefer copper, particularly for sauté pans.

The bourgeat 8-piece set is great. If you want one pan, I suggest the bourgeat 6qt saute pan with two loop handles.

I have bourgeat and mauviel; I prefer bourgeat.


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## damiano (Aug 8, 2021)

I’ve been cooking with copper for over a decade, on gas. Main collection consists of Mauviel 2.5mm stainless steel lined, and then I have some ss lined Falks, an unlined Falk jam pot, and a tin lined Dehillerin saute pan.

Copper is either the best or the second best material for basically any cooking task. 2.5mm copper gives you a great balance between even heating and responsiveness, especially so with pans having a diameter up until 28 cm. For high heat searing I also like carbon steel, which just tops copper in that it gives such a nice crust. For braises I prefer enameled cast iron over copper. For simple boiling of water I usually just take a lighter weight aluminum disc bottom sauce pan.

Stainless lining > tin lining. The only reason you would want tin is to experience thicker copper (2.5mm and over).

Thickness: by default always get 2.3mm (2.5 mm including the ss lining). For quick sauteing of veggies I hear 2.0mm can manage as well. Thicker than 2.5-3mm is not really necessary imho.

If you get ss lining, maintenance is zero. Just use it like any other pan, dialing down the heat somewhat. I never polish my copper.


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## TB_London (Aug 8, 2021)

Stick with stainless for boiling stuff- you don’t need any of coppers benefits

A copper saucepan is nice for sauce making due to evenness and responsiveness 

Copper sauté pan is good in combination with a carbon skillet. For high heat sear use carbon, sautéing anything else the copper.

For stews or casseroles stick with the enamelled cast if you have it already


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## TB_London (Aug 8, 2021)

Oh and with gas go for 2.5mm thick to allow it to even out the temp, and for me stainless lining is a no brainer.


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## Chips (Aug 8, 2021)

My SOY Turkiye saute pan is silver lined. Higher melting point than tin, but not as durable as stainless. I bought it for it's craftsmanship and beauty, hoping some day I'll have a gas stove. As it is, with an resistive electric element stove, and a hand hammered pan, there's a thin air gap scattered everywhere where it would otherwise be headed directly by a flame, so there's no claim to efficiency in heat transfer for me. 

I've cooked with mine maybe 4 times total and already have to have the silver re-lined. I was gently scrubbing some burned on gunk out of it and in the lighting I had at the moment, it didn't appear to be affecting anything, but when I got up the next morning in different lighting I could see that I'd stupidly worn down the lining enough to see a hint of copper glowing thru in areas.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 8, 2021)

My experience with copper is that is is a dream for a sauce making, I wore out a few tin lined pans in my twenties, while I was too inexperienced to truly cherish them, in hindsight those were a dream to use!

My lates one did not work on induction, so a friend is now loving that one a lot...Mauviel copper with stainless lining, I think I preferred the tin lining over the SS lining but cannot really compare with like a decade in between


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## coxhaus (Aug 8, 2021)

Years back I gave away my mom's French copper pans. I was cooking on electric with no hope of gas. Boy, would I love to have back those heavy copper pans now with my Viking gas range. Two of them looked like they needed to be re-tined.

PS
Does anybody make a pan with a thick copper disc? My understanding with the All-Clad copper is that the copper is very thin.


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## coxhaus (Aug 8, 2021)

Do you have a link for the 2.5 mm copper thick pans in the USA?

I am looking on eBay but I really tell which copper pan is which.

So, it looks like Mauviel 1830 M’HERITAGE 250 is the 2.5 mm stainless lined ones.

What do you think about this? They state they do not work on induction. 

Can be used on all cooking surfaces. Gas, electric, halogen stovetops, and in the oven. It can also be used on induction stovetops with Mauviel induction stove top interface disc (sold separately)

Amazon.com: Mauviel 2.5mm Brushed Copper Cookware Set, 5 Piece - Made in France - Stainless Steel Handles (M'heritage M250S): Kitchen & Dining
This might work
Amazon.com: Mauviel M'Heritage M250C 2.5mm Copper Saute Pan with Lid, 1.9 quart, : Kitchen & Dining

I got to think about if I really want to clean the copper.

I just realized there are different handle options. What would be best?


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## rickbern (Aug 8, 2021)

I use a copper stew pan for braising and I think it performs admirably. I also have a 28cm copper sauté pan and I’m not sure it’s better or worse than my 24 cm fissler with a thick disk base, but I have them both, they have different personalities, love them all and I cherish the differences

Kind of like my kids


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## rickbern (Aug 8, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Do you have a link for the 2.5 mm copper thick pans in the USA?
> 
> I am looking on eBay but I really tell which copper pan is which.
> 
> ...


I’m maybe overly sentimental but I like the traditional cast iron handles. Stainless stays cooler, bronze only makes sense for display

model number equals thickness. 250c is 2.5mm with cast iron handle, 150b is 1.5 with bronze

google mauviel 250c (or 250s) you’ll find it


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## coxhaus (Aug 8, 2021)

rickbern said:


> I use a copper stew pan for braising and I think it performs admirably. I also have a 28cm copper sauté pan and I’m not sure it’s better or worse than my 24 cm fissler with a thick disk base, but I have them both, they have different personalities, love them all and I cherish the differences
> 
> Kind of like my kids



So, is your copper stew pan tined or stainless lined?

I didn't want to hear that about the copper saute' pan as I was leaning that way. Maybe I don't need a copper pan. I have so many small pots. Most are Le Creuset. There are a few copper bottom Revere ware pots. There is 1 Emeril 6-quart silver disc pot. It doesn't bother me like the Emeril fry pan did.

That 3 quart stainless my wife keeps becuase it was her mom's when she was little. It burns rice on the bottom if you use it. We have a rice cooker that works well.


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## Justinv (Aug 9, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Do you have a link for the 2.5 mm copper thick pans in the USA?



Amazon has matfer bourgeat copper:
11” Sauté Pan

I believe matfer Bourgeat only sells 2.5mm pans.


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## rickbern (Aug 9, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> So, is your copper stew pan tined or stainless lined?
> 
> I didn't want to hear that about the copper saute' pan as I was leaning that way. Maybe I don't need a copper pan. I have so many small pots. Most are Le Creuset. There are a few copper bottom Revere ware pots. There is 1 Emeril 6-quart silver disc pot. It doesn't bother me like the Emeril fry pan did.
> 
> ...


It’s stainless lined. Take a look at it here





Re-surface an enamelled cast iron pot or just buy a new one?
 

G'day KKF, Around 20 years ago, I bought an enamelled cast iron French oven from a well known and expensive brand. It lasted around 10 years before the enamel in the base of the cooking surface chipped, without an obvious incident causing the chip. When I enquired about the lifetime warranty, I...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Luftmensch (Aug 9, 2021)

Nemo said:


> In the best enabling tradition of KKF, the recent "recommend a high end frypan" thread has got me thinking about trying some copper cookware.



As a point of clarification... what piques your interest? The material properties or the aesthetic?

I am ambivalent about the material properties but love the aesthetic. Whether polished or with a patina, copper cookware looks beautiful to me! 



Nemo said:


> 2) Stainless lining vs tin. I kinda like the idea of traditional (tin) but is it too hard to use and maintain?



Somewhat related... if you are only interested in the visual aesthetic (like me), stainless lining is less hassle and more durable. On the other hand.. if you are only interested in the material properties, clad copper will be even more maintenance free - particularly if you _dont_ like copper patina.

Given that you seem interested in the idea of traditional tin.... .... perhaps you are just interested in the overall 'aesthetic' of copper. As other have said, it is increasingly a dying/boutique technology. You may find it difficult to have it retinned in Australia should you follow that route... though you may be able to do a half decent job yourself if you are handy


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## Nemo (Aug 9, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> As a point of clarification... what piques your interest? The material properties or the aesthetic?
> 
> I am ambivalent about the material properties but love the aesthetic. Whether polished or with a patina, copper cookware looks beautiful to me!
> 
> ...



I'm definitely more interested in the material (thermal) properties. Not that I dislike the aesthetic.

I was considering a clad pan but most clad copper seems to have a pretty thin layer of copper (under 1mm). Even worse, most of them don't actually tell you how thick each layer is.

Stainless lining is a significantly worse conductor than tin, so I would guess that some of the thermal properties are muted somewhat in stainless lined copper.

There is a guy in Tassie who makes tin lined copper cookware at a very attractive price. He will re-tin pans as well, but I don't think he is young, so I don't know how long he will keep doing this. There is a retinning service in Sydney as well. I wonder whether learning to re-tin is feasible. Could be an interesting skill to learn.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 9, 2021)

as a word of caution; I could not resist impulse buying ;-) a copper sauce pan, after all I am going to make a port reduction tomorrow....
Do check the surface diameter of the induction area as my pot is going back because it only works halfway decent on the smallest of heating coils...as penalty to myself for not checking I am going to buy the expensive Debuyer version that I left in the shop....


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## Nemo (Aug 9, 2021)

MarcelNL said:


> as a word of caution; I could not resist impulse buying ;-) a copper sauce pan, after all I am going to make a port reduction tomorrow....
> Do check the surface diameter of the induction area as my pot is going back because it only works halfway decent on the smallest of heating coils...as penalty to myself for not checking I am going to buy the expensive Debuyer version that I left in the shop....


Sounds like a very harsh penalty 

Are you sure you aren't being too hard on yourself?


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## Luftmensch (Aug 9, 2021)

Nemo said:


> tin lined copper cookware



Lara Copper by any chance? That is the first search result I got... I am all for supporting craftsmen... even better... local craftsmen!!




Nemo said:


> I was considering a clad pan but most clad copper seems to have a pretty thin layer of copper (under 1mm). Even worse, most of them don't actually tell you how thick each layer is.



True! But then... I guess it depends on what you are after?

Tin sounds like an interesting surface to cook on (more nonstick than stainless). But I suspect the thermal properties of the 2-3mm copper can be reasonably approximated by _well engineered_ composites. Cheaper and thicker aluminium layers may make up for thinner copper layers. While there is a whole constellation of marketing guff out there, I have faith the major brands have put consideration into the composite design beyond marketing. I am sure they provide a balanced thermal performance within their target price point. Will they act 100% like 3mm copper? No.... Good enough for cooking? Quite likely 


Don't get me wrong... I dont mean to discourage you!! I find copper gorgeous. For that reason alone I covet it and may buy it one day! But *I* don't think I would find tinned copper a transformative kitchen experience....


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## MarcelNL (Aug 9, 2021)

Nemo said:


> Sounds like a very harsh penalty
> 
> Are you sure you aren't being too hard on yourself?


Sometimes you just need to face the consequences

There simply is no substitute for copper, it's thermal properties are pretty unique, layering aluminum and whatever does not do the same thing IMO

Can you live without a copper pan, or without a Denka, Shig or whatever top range knife ? sure...


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## Luftmensch (Aug 9, 2021)

Nemo said:


> I wonder whether learning to re-tin is feasible. Could be an interesting skill to learn.



You sent me on a little YouTube click-fest:





Have you ever soldered electronics or done copper pipe work? It will be similar: clean/degrease, flux, tin. I don't mean to poo-poo any craftsman... their experience is worth the amount they charge. Thats why I was careful to say:



Luftmensch said:


> you may be able to do a _*half*_ decent job



After many, many hours of instruction and experience... you might be able to do a fully decent job 

It actually looks like quite a fun home project....






MarcelNL said:


> Sometimes you just need to face the consequences



What terrible consequences. Enjoy! Looks absolutely gorgeous!!


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## Nemo (Aug 9, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Lara Copper by any chance? That is the first search result I got... I am all for supporting craftsmen... even better... local craftsmen!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, Lara copper.

Aluminium is interesting. Just over half as conducive as copper, around a third as dense but with just over twice as much specific heat capacity. Overall it's thermal diffusivity (ability to transfer heat) is only a little below copper.

Quite an interesting article on it here: 






Common Materials of Cookware - Equipment & Gear - Cooking For Engineers


Discussion on Common Materials of Cookware




www.cookingforengineers.com





No doubt the clad constructions are good enough for cooking. Hell, even the sandwiched bases are good enough.

For me, it's less about transformative kitchen experiences than looking at a different approach and seeing how that affects the process of preparing food. A bit like trying different grinds and profiles in a knife, I guess.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 9, 2021)

I have used aluminum pans in the past and avoid them like the plague, or Covid as we probably should rewrite that saying ;-)

Clad/sandwiched bases are great for many purposes, yet IME (which is limited to copper for sauce pans) copper has the vast advantage of being able to fine tune the amount of heat with such an ease that it becomes FUN. Grinds and profiles may indeed be a good comparison!

Re- tinning, it should be doable as DIY, Tin is readily available (take care to check what the non Tin component is, Tin ore often contains Arsenic, Wolfram, Bismuth etc...it is one thing to know it is 99.7% pure but I'd want to know more about those remaining 0.3%), I found what reads as 100% pure (?, I'd challenge that) lab grade Tin for 38$ per 100g.


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## btbyrd (Aug 9, 2021)

Tin melts at 450F. I don't trust myself to use pricey cookware that would liquefy at normal searing temps.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 9, 2021)

yeah I recall that the copper searing pan I had long ago suffered quite rapidly, but for sauces it works brilliantly!


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## Jovidah (Aug 9, 2021)

Yeah for me the temperature limitation on tinned pans makes them a complete no-go as well. It's just not idiot-proof enough for me.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 9, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> It's just not idiot-proof enough for me



Amen! It is nice not having to worry....

I can see how a small skillet for frying eggs at a gentle temperature might be nice.... Searing steaks? Sounds a bit close to the edge!!


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## Jville (Aug 10, 2021)

Nemo said:


> Yes, Lara copper.
> 
> Aluminium is interesting. Just over half as conducive as copper, around a third as dense but with just over twice as much specific heat capacity. Overall it's thermal diffusivity (ability to transfer heat) is only a little below copper.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have a Lara Copper frying pan. Absolutely wonderful. I have some thicker set of heavy copper sauce pans, different maker, also with tin lining and love them too. I am a big fan of tin lined copper. When it comes to the whole melting at 450 issue. I just don’t use it for stuff like that ie. searing steak or a thick pork chop. But sautéing a chicken breast no problem, actually pure joy and ease. And for sautéing things in general just wonderful to work with.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 10, 2021)

Jville said:


> I have a Lara Copper frying pan





Interesting. Out of curiosity.... why?? No problem (or judgement) with that at all! I just got the impression they were a small operation with mostly local reach. Nice to know the internet is connecting them wider


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## Nemo (Aug 10, 2021)

Jville said:


> Yeah, I have a Lara Copper frying pan. Absolutely wonderful. I have some thicker set of heavy copper sauce pans, different maker, also with tin lining and love them too. I am a big fan of tin lined copper. When it comes to the whole melting at 450 issue. I just don’t use it for stuff like that ie. searing steak or a thick pork chop. But sautéing a chicken breast no problem, actually pure joy and ease. And for sautéing things in general just wonderful to work with.


Wow, I'm also surprised (pleasantly) that one of these made it half way around the world. I would love to hear the story behind that if it's not too rude to ask.

Thanks for the positive feedback. You have made my mouse finger itchy as the cursor hovers over the "buy now" button.

I figure that I would still use carbon steel for high temp applications like searing steak. I guess tin lined copper would be more suited to more delicate tasks such as sauces, eggs and maybe fish?

What sort of tools do you use on the Lara pan? Silicone and wood?


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## damiano (Aug 11, 2021)

Tin-lined copper is more non stick than stainless steel so yes things like fish would be perfect. I often use my tin-lined saute pan to make meatballs, as they don't stick to the bottom and hence there is less chance of them falling apart. You can fry in tin-lined pans, using high heat, just don't heat them empty. 

For me the issue with tin lined is cleaning: you really need to be careful not to use a scrubby. When I'm the one doing the dishes it's okay: I clean the pan straight after having used it. But if someone else is cleaning make sure he/she knows what they are doing!

If you want new tin-lined you could check out Mauviels here: Copper Cookware Bakeware

Some other random bits copper related. I'd be cautious trying to retin yourself: it can be dangerous and if you don't know what you're doing chances are you will be smearing the tin on too thickly. Making your pan less ideal. If you live in/near Belgium a good place to retin is the Falk factory, that is where I did my Dehillerin. These guys are pro (as you'd expect!). 

Finally, as someone else already mentioned: thick aluminum disc based pans like the Fissler Original Profi are an excellent alternative for larger size copper saute pans. I personally prefer my 28 cm Fissler over my 28 cm Mauviel ss-lined. Typically for larger sized pans you won't be making lots of recipes where responsiveness comes into play, but instead you will want to have a more conductive bottom.


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## rickbern (Aug 13, 2021)

Not a huge fan of brass handles, but falk is discounting them 20%





__





Copper Cookware | Anniversary Line | Falk Culinair USA


Limited Edition copper cookware with brass handles. Beautiful professional grade pans that go from oven to table.




www.copperpans.com


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## Rangen (Aug 13, 2021)

I am not even sure why I like my stainless-lined thick copper skillets, but I do. A lot. Maybe get a small one and see if you feel the magic?


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## rickbern (Aug 14, 2021)

Came over to a friends house to make dinner for her, thought you guys would enjoy her entryway. My guess is nothing is even 1mm thick


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## Jville (Aug 15, 2021)

Nemo said:


> Wow, I'm also surprised (pleasantly) that one of these made it half way around the world. I would love to hear the story behind that if it's not too rude to ask.
> 
> Thanks for the positive feedback. You have made my mouse finger itchy as the cursor hovers over the "buy now" button.
> 
> ...


My bad, forgot to get back to you. I tried Lara Cooper pan partially, because they seemed relatively inexpensive to get eventhough shipping wasn’t cheap. Great pan. It had a little bubble on the bottom that I had to adjust, but it works perfect now. It’s great really for anything you sauté chicken breast, veggies, sauces, etc. But yeah for Steaks even fish that you want to do quickly at high heat carbon steel or cast iron. Very versatile pan, when coupled with cast iron or carbon steel you basically cover everything, maybe except certain Teflon applications like a French omelette or something. The tin is pretty non stick but carbon steel can still be a little better and Teflon, of course, is even more non stick.


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## rickbern (Aug 16, 2021)

If you squeeze a lemon keep the spent piece. Drop some salt on copper, scrub with the spent lemon half, brings the copper back to maybe 80pc of polished


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## Justinv (Aug 17, 2021)

While on tips, mine is stick a wine cork under the lid handle. It stays cool and you can then lift the hot lid without a hot pad.


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## Honerabi (Aug 17, 2021)

IMHO polished hammered French copper is aesthetically pleasing. I used to use Wenol, but now use Flitz. The large stock pots are great for simmering stocks. Long time simmering with stock pots made from other thin materials (aluminum, stainless steel) are more likely to burn. You can put the entire stock pot in the oven. The selection is wider for tin-lined compared to stainless steel. Re-tinning will cost as much as the pan did new. The urge to collect copper cookware is as bad as that for fine cutlery. Too bad gas is being phased out.


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## btbyrd (Aug 17, 2021)

I've done a lot of things wrong in the kitchen, but I've never burned stock before.


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## rickbern (Aug 17, 2021)

btbyrd said:


> I've done a lot of things wrong in the kitchen, but I've never burned stock before.


Now you’ve got something to aspire to!

I thought the same thing.


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## Jovidah (Aug 17, 2021)

As soon as you toss the whole pot in an oven - which tends to have fairly even heating - does the quality of the pan even matter anymore?


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## coxhaus (Aug 17, 2021)

Just to add to the above which I don't know the answer, but are large pots clad on the sides to where they work like copper pots?


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## Steampunk (Aug 17, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Just to add to the above which I don't know the answer, but are large pots clad on the sides to where they work like copper pots?



Some are, yes.


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## Justinv (Aug 17, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> As soon as you toss the whole pot in an oven - which tends to have fairly even heating - does the quality of the pan even matter anymore?



The short answer is yes, it makes a difference. However pan size and shape is most important. If we are talking premium pans, they will do a good job if the size & shape is appropriate. Cheap cookware with thin sides, thin bottoms is another matter.

I have simultaneously baked the same braised chicken dish in an all-clad pot and creuset enameled cast pot of about the same size and had them come out quite different. Both of those pots had thick bottoms and thick sides but I think the more conductive aluminum in all-clad made it cook quicker with better browning. That was that particular dish. Another dish might come out better in the creuset. Both got the job done well but there were differences.

The above said, if I have 2 pots of the same size and shape I will have a favorite and thats the one that stays in my kitchen. What has stuck around in my kitchen is french copper pots, and all-clad pots (I mostly have MC2 with thick aluminum walls). I have several creusets but they are mostly used when I have nothing else of similar size/shape. Many seem to like their oval pots, and they come in many nice medium sizes that all-clad doesn’t offer.

I think a good 8” pot, 9.5” pot, 11” pot, a 11” sauté/braising pan, and an oval pot or two are a nice set.


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## coxhaus (Aug 17, 2021)

Interesting about the All-Clad vs the Le Creuset, I have been using a Le Creuset 32 cm roaster because I have been using lemon when roasting a chicken. This leaves out my cast iron and carbon steel pans. I have not tried an All-Clad as I need to. The very bottom of the chicken does not brown in the Le Creuset pan. My latest favorite right now is an old mom's pan from the 1950s that almost feels like some kind of steel that is enameled on the inside. I use a rack in the pan so the chicken is more exposed so the bottom of the chicken will cook better. But it cooks best for me. Does exposing more make for a better chicken. Tall sides seems to make for a less crispy chicken. Maybe I am mixing up roasting and braising a chicken. I guess if I was going to do a mushroom sauce with the chicken maybe I would do it in a pot.

So, is copper going to perform better?

It is too hot to try anything right now in Texas. I need to wait for it to cool off.


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## Justinv (Aug 17, 2021)

I agree that tall sides hinder crispy chicken. I typically roast a butterflied chicken in a 12” skillet. A roasting pan with rack works well too.


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## coxhaus (Aug 17, 2021)

I have a 12-inch All-Clad copper core fry pan on its way to me. I will try it in the fall to see how it compares to my Le Creuset in the oven.

To me convection in the oven with as much chicken exposed as possible makes for a crispy chicken.


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## Justinv (Aug 18, 2021)

My 12” all-clad skillet gets well used for crispy meat with a pan sauce. Butterflied chicken in the oven with some sort of sauce is a typical use. Another common use is steak au poive done on the stovetop which involves searing steak, pan sauce, and flambé. 

If I want crispy skin on chicken thighs without a pan sauce I like seasoned carbon steel. I don’t typically use carbon steel with a pan sauce or anything baked in the oven.

For whatever reason I’ve never been tempted to upgrade my 12” all-clad skillet to a french copper one. I’m sure your AC copper core will work really well.


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## JASinIL2006 (Aug 18, 2021)

btbyrd said:


> I've done a lot of things wrong in the kitchen, but I've never burned stock before.



I wish I could say the same... a couple years ago, I was gifted about 30 pounds of bear bones from an acquaintance who hunts and who knows I love to cook. I made a lovely batch of bear stock (how could I resist? the novelty!), and I was reducing as I always do with stock, so I could freeze it into small cubes. As I was reducing it on the back porch over my wok burner, an old friend who I had not seen in years unexpectedly popped in and we visited for several hours, and I lost all track of time. 

At some point, one of my kids came home and said they thought there must be a fire in the neighborhood, but it smelled like it was coming from our backyard! It was, of course, my stock, which had reduced past the glace stage to something resembling coal. I was heartbroken. And yes, I had burned the stock.


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## btbyrd (Aug 18, 2021)

If only you'd been using a copper pot!


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## coxhaus (Aug 19, 2021)

So, does a copper stock pot really make a difference? I am thinking about an All-Clad copper core 8qt stock pot for cooking gumbo. I don't own a clad stock pot. My stock pots are Revere Ware stock pots with copper bottoms. I have a 4qt, 8qt, 12qt, and 16qt. Maybe I can make the ruox right in the pot with good even heating.


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## Honerabi (Aug 19, 2021)

btbyrd said:


> I've done a lot of things wrong in the kitchen, but I've never burned stock before.


I've cooked the white veal stock, and then the brown veal stock as per the Larousse Gastronomique 1961 edition, dozens of times. Early on, I burn't the ingredients. I was using the 20 qt. Revereware stock pot, with a diffuser. Never had another problem with 12, 20, and 35 qt. Ville Dieu, or Mauviel copper stock pots. Had some great fetes, oxtail stew, pheasant salmis, game stock.


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## Honerabi (Aug 19, 2021)

rickbern said:


> Came over to a friends house to make dinner for her, thought you guys would enjoy her entryway. My guess is nothing is even 1mm thickView attachment 138034


What a great collection of copper!


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## Honerabi (Aug 19, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> As soon as you toss the whole pot in an oven - which tends to have fairly even heating - does the quality of the pan even matter anymore?


Make sure the handles are going to be able to "handle" it. I'd rather have 2.5mm copper than aluminum or stainless steel.


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## Justinv (Aug 19, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> So, does a copper stock pot really make a difference? I am thinking about an All-Clad copper core 8qt stock pot for cooking gumbo.



that will work great! I use my all-clad 8qt and bourgeat copper 6qt without much thought, whichever one is the right size gets the job. The AC is 10.5” and the copper is 9.5” diameter. I’d love to get the bourgeat 11” casserole pot but its not a priority. The AC has a nice steamer to place atop that gives it double duty. Definitely get one of these.

If its just for stock, something taller would work better but the 8qt gets the job done and works very well for braises, stew, curry, jam, pie filling, and other things that its the perfect height for. It works great in the oven. A cheap taller pot for stock is an option. Some prefer to use thin wall pots for stock so the residue on the walls above the liquid is less likely to burn.


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## btbyrd (Aug 19, 2021)

I don't think it makes a difference, at least for the pot you're considering. I have the Copper Core 8 qt stockpot and while I like it ver much, I wouldn't recommend buying it unless you get a really good deal on one. Except for my pressure cooker, all of my stainless cookware is All Clad -- a mix of D3, Copper Core, and D7. I honestly don't notice much of a difference between D3 and the CC -- and certainly not enough of a difference to justify the retail price difference. It's marginally more responsive. Maybe a touch more even. Maybe. I recommend All Clad all day long, but again would never recommend the copper core unless you get a really good deal on it. But either will be much better than Revereware.


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## coxhaus (Aug 19, 2021)

Too late., I decided to buy the All-Clad 8 qt copper core pot. I bought a 7-piece set which includes the 8 qt stock pot.

I like the All-Clad copper core better than the D5 using gas. I sold my D5 fry pan.

I will end up with two 3 qt sauté' pans. I have an old Viking tri ply made in the US 3 qt sauté pan.

I do like the All-Clad D3 pans. They are just hard to find. The copper core is easier for me to find nowadays.


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## Justinv (Aug 19, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I will end up with two 3 qt sauté' pans.



you have 3 sauté pans! The 8qt works really well on the stove. The high sides deter crispy meat but once you add liquid that is irrelevant. It works extremely well on things like beef burgandy, bolognese that involve browning meet/vegetables, adding wine/stock/tomatoes and simmering until done. I would use a shorter pan for a typical braise with a moderate amount of liquid but the 8qt would get the job done quite well. The high sides deter splattering when browning meat.


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## coxhaus (Aug 28, 2021)

So, I boiled water for pasta in my new All-Clad copper core 8 qt pot. It seemed fairly fast to me. I think it came to a boil faster than my old China made silver disc pot that I gave away. It seemed to take forever to boil water. I have a gas range with big burners. It is a Viking range. I do like my copper core pans.

I would think a silver disc pot which contained copper would be fast also.

PS
We went to a pasta making class last night. The master pasta maker at Barton Springs Mill taught us about pasta. It was interesting. I guess I will be making fresh pasta a lot nowadays. They make nice high gluten 00 flour for pasta. They make many flours, rye and other things. We have been buying flour from them in the past. It is how we found out about the class.

I love how fast fresh pasta cooks.


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## Justinv (Aug 30, 2021)

Make some tagliatelle for that bolognese! Its great with wide fresh pasta.


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## justjessi (Nov 19, 2021)

My though & experience:

1) If you work on gas stoves, yes. Copper makes BIG different for increasing responsiveness. It’s better than my AC copper core. Boiling is much quicker. Searing is more even and dreamy brown. Stewing is nice. Thumb up for sauces and sweets (mine for jams and chocolates). But I still stick with my Le Creuset and Staub for braising and long stewing, more tender and juicier.

2) I’m a lazy one. Stainless lining is my go-to. Tin is more nonstick than ss but can’t survive over 400F and NEED re-tinning every 10-15 years.

3) Sadly, you should need >2.0mm to utilize the benefit of copper. Chefs require >2.5mm thickness (copper thickness not total thickness).

4) You will need to dedicate some effort to “baby” it. At least, cleaning (hand washing and repolishing), re-tinning or silvering. It easily gets dull.

Copper is my beautiful sweetheart, but it needs some experience to find the sweet spots, too. My go-to stuff is still clad: AC copper core, d3, and d5. Know what? The copper core is nearly 1mm copper thick, equivalent to 1-1.5mm thick total (such as Mauviel M150) but needs much lesssss maintenance and is lightweight.

I like the Mauviel and Soy for skillets and Falk for saucier because Falk has flared rims for easy for pouring. A 5-6 qt Rondeau pan is a further list.


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## MarcelNL (Nov 19, 2021)

I have recently been using the SS lined copper Debuyer a lot for sauces, on induction, and I absolutely love it to bits over whatever other pans I own and what I've used (ranging from 10euro a pot to Fissler Pro) for sauces that is!


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## justjessi (Nov 20, 2021)

Anyone has some experience about Made-In copper, 2mm thick ss lining? Looks interesting. Find only a few reviews here. 
Move over, stainless steel—copper is the new star of the show
10 Best Copper Cookware Set Reviews - AllCookwareFind
Made-In’s New Copper Cookware Set Brings Professional-Grade Cooking Tools to Your Kitchen


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## Scooter (Nov 20, 2021)

MarcelNL said:


> I have recently been using the SS lined copper Debuyer a lot for sauces, on induction, and I absolutely love it to bits over whatever other pans I own and what I've used (ranging from 10euro a pot to Fissler Pro) for sauces that is!



How well does the ss lined copper work on induction? Sounds like you are happy with it, but are there slow heating issues?


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## rickbern (Nov 20, 2021)

Scooter said:


> How well does the ss lined copper work on induction? Sounds like you are happy with it, but are there slow heating issues?


There are solutions, but I think you give up some of the reason to use copper in the first place if you adapt it to induction. I’d be overjoyed if Marcel disagrees with me, I have no personal knowledge. I tend you use copper perhaps differently, more for sauté pans and soup pots, not as much for sauces. 

if you have some already look at this. Heck, look at this anyway:






Cooking with copper on induction - Falk Culinair







www.falkculinair.com





seems like I’d be turning my copper sauté pan into a cast iron pan


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