# For the gun folks....



## Dave Martell

I wanted to ask you gun toting folks what your opinion is on the great hand gun caliber debate. Do you go 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.....what's your preference and why? 

Oh and I realize that this can turn into a religious/political type debate very easily but I'd appreciate cool heads here. Thanks


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## add

Dave, are you looking to primarily conceal carry, range/target shoot, or at home protection?


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## Dave Martell

add said:


> Dave, are you looking to primarily conceal carry, range/target shoot, or at home protection?




Well all three are picks for me but CCW & home protection are the most important ones. I've had a lot of time with the Berretta M9 (and Taurus platforms) many years ago so I'm more than familiar with 9mm characteristics in both FMJ & JHP rounds and what I can expect there but I've never fired either .40 S&W or .45 ACP and I have an interest mostly in the .45 for my needs. I really have no preference though and I've heard all of the debates over the years too so I get where everyone is coming from and have nothing to add there myself. What I'm really looking for most from you guys is what you choose and why, I'm just curious what a knifenut would select.


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## Dave Martell

Also, I'd love to hear your thoughts on what your significant other chooses and why as well.


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## Pensacola Tiger

Dave, you mention "gun toting folks", so I'm taking that to mean that you are asking about concealed carry. The answer then becomes "the largest caliber that you can shoot accurately and can comfortably carry all the time". If you don't have it when you need it, it doesn't matter what caliber it is. A .32 ACP in your hand is better than a .40 S&W back home because it's too big and heavy for you to have with you.

If you are looking for some size and weight comparisons, check out this chart: 

http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.pdf

Rick


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## SpikeC

I am a 45 acp lover. It is big enough to stop, and it has a "friendly" feel when shooting. The other calibers have a sharper feel that I don't care for. 45s are available in many configurations as well, small compact autoloaders to big honking revolvers. I like revolvers because they have a smoother recoil and I like the simplicity.


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## kalaeb

I am a smaller guy so I prefer the 9mm.


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## knyfeknerd

Love my 40cal. It's the best of both worlds. More stopping power than a 9 but not as big and bulky as a 45.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

.45 cal all the way. I'm a big 1911 fan, so that's part of the reason. Similar to what Spike said. IMO, with 9mm you can definetely take your target down, but shot placement plays a larger role. With a .45, there is no doubt. Of course, you still need to hit the target. Additionally, I haven't noticed a large price gap in ammo, always a big arguing point with calibers. Ironically, I am a big fan of the Sig 226, which is 9 or .40 cal, and would like to get one in .40 cal someday. Around here, .40 and 9 mm is easy ammo to pick up, .45 not so much. It's obviously the most popular caliber in my area.

BTW, I don't find my .45 bulky in any way and I've owned/shot 9mm all my adult life.


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## El Pescador

I had a Kimber for about 10 years in North Carolina that was everything that a .45 should be. I would factor weight and balance into you decision making process in addition to caliber.


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## PierreRodrigue

I owned a Sig 226 in 9 mm, always wanted it in .40 Also Kimber is a solid choice!


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## sachem allison

SpikeC said:


> I am a 45 acp lover. It is big enough to stop, and it has a "friendly" feel when shooting. The other calibers have a sharper feel that I don't care for. 45s are available in many configurations as well, small compact autoloaders to big honking revolvers. I like revolvers because they have a smoother recoil and I like the simplicity.



+1 on the revolver, Ruger fan myself


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## Taz575

I carry a variety of firearms. Summer carry is a Glock 26, 9mm with 124 +p Speer Gold dots. I also have a Glock 19 I shoot the same ammo in. I can shoot the glock 9mm's quickly and accurately and I used to compete in IDPA with a Glock 17 and 34. Every other season is my VBOB in .45 acp. I have a small S&W Bodyguard .380, but I don't have much faith in that caliber. Sig P239 in .40 or 9mm is an awesome piece. It is a single stack, so the grip fits people very well and is soft to shoot, but still small enough to CCW easily; about the same size as the glock 26. My mom used to shoot my P239 in .40 a lot. My mom now likes shooting her CBOB or Les Baer Commanche in .45acp. Lots of people recommend a small .38 special revolver for women, but the long trigger pull is what most women hate because it is harder to shoot accurately. Look for something like a Glock, Springfield XD, S&W M&P in 9mm or 40. These have fairly short trigger pulls and can fit many people's hands well. A 1911 is also good, and they can be found in 9mm or .40. In the police shootings I have read about with 9mm or larger ammo, shot placement was the key vs caliber used. Modern bullets generally do well ballistically, so pick a caliber that you can handle and shoot well. 40 and 45 almost cost the same ammo wise, and the 9mm is a bit less expensive. I would also do similar guns between you and your SO so that you can shoot hers and vice versa. Glocks I like in 9mm, but the 40 is a bit snappy and has had issues in the LEO community with lights and stuff. S&W M&P full size in .40 shoots much softer than the glock 23 in .40, very accurate, too and the backstrap is interchangeable to fit more people's hands well. Great pistol! The Compact M&P in .40 is a bit jumpy. 

Best advice is to go to a range and rent a few guns/calibers and see what you both like. When my parents started shooting, they both liked the SigPro 9mm, so that is what they got. Then my Dad got a CZ-75 Stainless in 9mm, and my mom got a HK USP 9mm. They much prefered the SA shooting vs a longer DA trigger pull and both of those pistols can be carried in SA mode with a safety on. My dad also has my Sig P239 in .40 now and my mom also has 2 Commander sized 1911's in .45. Go figure! 

9mm, even plus P's, in most guns that can handle them shoot accurately and without a ton of recoil. .40's tend to be more snappy recoil wise than the 9mm's, but in some guns, the recoil is well controlled like in the M&P 40, which is a very soft shooter for a .40 pistol. 45 recoil tends to be a slower push, rather than the sharp snap of the 40, but you usually get a single stack or a fatter grip, which may be hard for some to hold. I had a Sig 226ST in .40 that was awesome to shoot, but the grip was just too fat for me. Same with the Beretta 92, but the newer versions have slimmer grips.

Go out and shoot some pistols or at least fondle them at the store, then figure out what you want to buy! 9mm (nod goes to the Plus P), 40 or 45 are all effective for self defense, around the same cost ammo wise and can all be shot well by most people with practice.


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## Bulldogbacchus

I used to be a fan of Glock 9mm.....until I took care of a guy who was shot 9 times with a 9mm, and he walked out of he hospital 4 days later. So, 45 until you can fight your way to a shotgun or a rifle.......


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Bulldogbacchus said:


> I used to be a fan of Glock 9mm.....until I took care of a guy who was shot 9 times with a 9mm, and he walked out of he hospital 4 days later. So, 45 until you can fight your way to a shotgun or a rifle.......



Yes sir!


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## Salty dog

I might know more about CCW than I do about knives.

Depends on the situation. If I'm walking to the corner store (What kinds of neighborhoods have corner stores?) I'll put my hammerless snub .38 in my front right pocket. Pants or jacket depending on the season. (I won't get into the details why)
For every day around town carry, I used to pack a 3in .45 IWB, I found it cumbersome. I have since switched to a Walther PPS in 9mm. It's a slim model and is very comfortable and very concealable. Because I spend at least two days at the range a week I am very comfortable carrying a 9mm with good self defense ammo.

At home, I don't believe in shotguns. (For a number of reasons. One being the mess they make. Ever see someone eviserated by a shotgun at close range? Who's responsible for cleaning that up?) .357 mag Colt King Cobra, 6 inch barrel. No questions about safeties, chambers or mags. Boom.


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## ajhuff

Dave Martell said:


> Well all three are picks for me but CCW & home protection are the most important ones. I've had a lot of time with the Berretta M9 (and Taurus platforms) many years ago so I'm more than familiar with 9mm characteristics in both FMJ & JHP rounds and what I can expect there but I've never fired either .40 S&W or .45 ACP and I have an interest mostly in the .45 for my needs. I really have no preference though and I've heard all of the debates over the years too so I get where everyone is coming from and have nothing to add there myself. What I'm really looking for most from you guys is what you choose and why, I'm just curious what a knifenut would select.



Why not a S&W 625?

-AJ


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## Dave Martell

Great info guys!

How about ammo availability locally - any issues?


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## Dave Martell

ajhuff said:


> Why not a S&W 625?
> 
> -AJ




I've got nothing against a revolver but I like semi-autos more.


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## DwarvenChef

I'm a revolver fan all the way. Ive had varous 1911 configs from Detonics to full sized GI issues and if I had to carry an auto it would be a 1911 in 45. I like big slow bullets. 

But much of this is personal prefference, some like the "crack" of the fast 9's and 40's. I can atest with all heart that I do NOT like the Sig ultra compacts in a 40... so sir I don't, big hands don't mesh with these power sub compacts. But that is me.

Years ago I realized that if it didn't have a cylinder I was just not going to be happy. With my hands and shooting "style" a revolver fit my methods just purfectly. I'm looking at a S&W 5shot 44 spcl for my CCW. My last one was a full sized S&W29 with spc loads and I was very happy with it. So a slightly smaller and easier to cary 5shot should be purfect for me.

Dave what you need to do is get your hands on all of the choices, like at an indoor range that rents, or a bunch of knife knuts you may know that have a few to many  and see what fits you. Trust me by the time you find the purfect fit it may well be the last thing on the first listing you chose to get. It really comes down to fit and feel, as stated earlier even a pipsqueek in hand is better than the brick thats left at home.


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## Still-edo

You have to stop by the range and fire a Glock. Any caliber Glock will do the trick.


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## Keith Neal

Dave, I have spent many years shooting just about every caliber and type firearm, have done a lot of serious training with some of the best instructors, and have carried a firearm at all times for decades. Here are a few things I have learned.

By far the most important thing in gaining a defensive capability is training. Virtually everyone has an opinion on the subject of firearms, but all those change once they have some good training. The best training is with Randy Cain, www.cumberlandtactics.com. There is no comparison. One class with Randy will teach you more than you can imagine.

In the interim, here are a few opinions shared by virtually everyone who knows the subject. First, for home defense, nothing can touch a shotgun. Not even close.

Outside the house, a major caliber rifle or shotgun with good sights sighted in with good slugs is far better than any handgun.

For concealed carry, a 1911 .45 is unmatched, however, anything you can shoot accurately and quickly under pressure is better than something bigger you can't shoot. If you can shoot a Glock 9mm, by all means use it. Just be ready and able to deliver head shots. Here again training is the answer.

If you talk to Randy about training, which I strongly recommend, he will invite you to a class with what you have or even loan you pistols for the class. Once you have some training, and see what other good shooters in the class can do with what equipment, then you are ready to consider what to buy. The class will save you a lot of money in the long run, as well as give you a real understanding of defensive capability.

Good luck!

Keith


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## Keith Neal

By the way, if you decide to take a class, I would be happy to loan you holsters, magazines, magazine pouches, gunbelts, etc., and, if you can stop by here, a few representative pistols. Just let me know.

Keith


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## JMJones

I have auto loaders in all three calibers. If you are thinking of something very small and consealable, I would go 9mm. If you are thinking of a full size pistol I dont think it really matters much in reality. As someone above stated, the important thing is that you have the gun and are proficient with it, if and when you happen to need it.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

I can attest that Keith knows what he is talking about. I appreciate all his help and guidance, i've been looking into gun classes outside the military realm because of him.


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## 9mmbhp

Keith Neal said:


> By far the most important thing in gaining a defensive capability is training. Virtually everyone has an opinion on the subject of firearms, but all those change once they have some good training.



^^^ what he said. 

Training, confidence and mindset are more important than the caliber of the projectile or the piece launching it.

I go to Gunsite

DVC

Edit: as might be apparent from my username, I carry a Browning P35 (HighPower) chambered in 9mm, loaded with modern hollowpoints. I like the aesthetics of the weapon and am quite proficient with it.


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## Keith Neal

9mmbhp said:


> ^^^ what he said.
> 
> Training, confidence and mindset are more important than the caliber of the projectile or the piece launching it.
> 
> I go to Gunsite
> 
> DVC
> 
> Edit: as might be apparent from my username, I carry a Browning P35 (HighPower) chambered in 9mm, loaded with modern hollowpoints. I like the aesthetics of the weapon and am quite proficient with it.



Gunsite is the granddaddy of them all. I went there when Jeff Cooper was there, and it was fantastic. Randy Cain was one of my instructors there.

The P35 is marvelous; I have a soft spot in my heart for it. If I had to carry a nine, the Highpower would be it.

Keith


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## Dave Martell

As always you guys are a wealth of information and generous to a fault. Thanks especially to Keith for your offers but I doubt that I'll be taking any courses in the foreseeable future. Sure I'd love to go that route - yup I'd LOVE it indeed - it's just that I'm saving pennies as it is for the basics and as it is the unfortunate reality is that a course like that becomes a luxury to a guy like me.


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## NO ChoP!

I carry a .380 in my pocket at all times. I have 9mm in my car and at my bed side. Anyone who says a 9 isn't deadly obviously has never been shot. A .22 in the dome will kill you instantly. Plus a nine typically carries 15 to 17 rounds, whereas a .40 usually tops out at ten. I have a 30 round clip I will take to war against anything....

I think the reliability of the gun in particular is more important than the caliber.
I've owned two glocks that I found to be rather touchy; squeeze too hard, no bang....


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## 9mmbhp

Keith Neal said:


> Gunsite is the granddaddy of them all. I went there when Jeff Cooper was there, and it was fantastic. Randy Cain was one of my instructors there.
> 
> The P35 is marvelous; I have a soft spot in my heart for it. If I had to carry a nine, the Highpower would be it.
> 
> Keith



Proud to say that the Colonel's signature is on my 250 certificate. He rode me pretty hard about carrying a 9, but I shot the only perfect/clean target during the final day's school drills and was runner-up in the shoot-off


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## Chifunda

Keith nailed it. Not that he needs my endorsement, but after fifty years of serious shooting, I agree with everything he has to say on this thread.

Just want to give a big "Amen" to his recommendation of professional training. I've never shot with Randy Cain, but have heard nothing but good about him. 

Of the pros that I have trained with, I'd put Larry Vickers at the top of my list. I've been in classes where we shot nearly a thousand rounds a day. I've been to facilities where we set up all kinds of cool scenarios with props galore and had a ball. But I have to say, if you want to improve your ability to shoot accurately under pressure...give LAV a try.

:my2cents:


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## Keith Neal

Dave Martell said:


> As always you guys are a wealth of information and generous to a fault. Thanks especially to Keith for your offers but I doubt that I'll be taking any courses in the foreseeable future. Sure I'd love to go that route - yup I'd LOVE it indeed - it's just that I'm saving pennies as it is for the basics and as it is the unfortunate reality is that a course like that becomes a luxury to a guy like me.



Dave:

If you are going to buy a firearm without training first, I recommend a Smith & Wesson model 66 4" barrel. The .357 Magnum is adequate for defense, and the same revolver will fire cheap .38 Special ammunition (though not to the same point of aim); the Smith is simple, reliable, and durable. It is much safer than an autoloader in untrained hands, and more likely to go bang when you need it.

The temptation to get a high capacity autoloader is strong, but the model 66 will serve you much better. If you continue your journey into firearms and graduate to something with more bullets, you will likely find yourself still getting out the revolver for fun.

It's like starting with a Carter. You may get fancier knives, but the Carter will always remain useful.

Keith


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## Dave Martell

I had some training back in the late 80's while stationed in the UK. I had to work with the security police for base perimeter security (aka - foxhole sitting) but that was a long time ago and we didn't have semi-auto handguns then, it was .38 revolver, M16, M203, & M60's for us and I qualified on all of those. After that I got training on the Beretta M9 and later my room mate in NM had a Taurus (92FS clone) that we shot a good bit while I was there. So I'm not unfamiliar with what these guns do but it has been a very long time since I had my hands on them.


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## l r harner

im a glock 36 guy 6+1 45apc kelly has a glock19 15+1 9 mm we can share holsters she loves hers an i love mien carry foe me is not a problem as its a single stack and fees everything i have fed it ammo wise


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## Cipcich

A few belated comments.
If you were a gun zealot, you would already have lots of guns, opinions, and training. As that is apparently not the case, I would suggest something simple, reliable, and effective. If you actually think you might need a gun one day, just stay home.
My favorite pistol is a .40 Glock 23; simple and reliable, it holds 12+1 rounds. Nevertheless, I'm more likely to put an aluminum-framed S&W .38 in my pocket. If a gun's too cumbersome, you probably won't carry it.
I stay out of bars, and out of trouble. I don't have any kind of permit, other than the respectable old-guy card. Our .38's (my wife has a Model 60) have very nice cocobolo grips, and I have a Kramer holster for my back pocket.


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## Mingooch

Dave, as a cop, here are a few suggestions. I avoid 9mm as too many times there is a through and through and people hit the person or something behind the target when having to shoot a person. Plus like a few others have said, people in some cases have been shot many, many times with a 9mm and not been hurt too bad in the long term. I prefer 40 or 45 cal. Certainly get some refresher training because if u dont miss, u dont need more rounds unless u are fighting an army or the zombie apocalypse has begun.... I like the springfielf XD's myself and if my department allowed it, I would carry a nice 22 mag over under derringer, 2 shots, 2 kills, but soo easy to conceal.


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## Dave Martell

I appreciate all the info guys. I have lots to think about.


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## Justin0505

I carried a Kahr pm9 for years: very reliable, accurate and beautifully made gun, but there where some ergonomics with the tiger pull that just where not ideal for my big hands. I ended up giving it to my sister for her first gun. 

I just got a chance to handle both a Sig p938 and and Springfield xds .45. The sig is the most impressive sub-compact 9mm I've ever held and I was amazed that while it's smaller, it actually felt much better in my hands than my old pm9. 
The xds is still very compact, but is noticeably larger than the p938, and the result is that if feels almost like a full-size gun comfort-wise. 

I think that many of the old problems that you used to hear about 9mm over penetrating or under-performing have been compensated for with advances in ammunition. The ballistic performance of some of the lastest 9mm copper or composite self-defense bullets are pretty impressive. 

Still, my favorite caliber is .45. Even though the recoil is technically "more" than a 9mm or .40, I feel that it's a much more pleasant type of jolt: more of a "THUMP" than a "SNAP." 

I'm currently deadlocked between these 2 guns, and I think that I just need to find a place where I can rent and shoot them both to make a decision. 

I think that anyone looking for a compact or sub-compact carry and self defense gun should take a look at both of these as well.


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## Zwiefel

For me, this ended the discussion about caliber choice:

[video=youtube;2dA36NYLqns]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dA36NYLqns&amp;feature=plcp[/video]

With modern self-defense ammo, they are all calibrated to acheive the same terminal ballistics.

I'm huge fan of Paul Gomez...he brought a solidier's discipline and an engineer's mind to this discipline...was extremely sad that we lost him earlier this year.

After digesting this video for a couple of weeks, I made the commitment to move from the .40S+W I've been EDC for years to 9mm for both effectivness and improved "time in the fight." Also, I'm not a big man (5'9" @ 160lbs), but I'm a huge advocate of full-sized EDC all year long, I have no trouble concealing it with minimal trouble...and the improved capacity, sight radius, recoil absorbtion, and time back on target are easily worth it.

My wife carries a M+P 9C most of the time...and a Walther p22 the rest of the time (with a pretty pink frame :laugh: ).

I spend about 200 hours/year training, participate in idpa, ipsc, and steel challenge (usually 1 of those each month). and take the intellectual side very seriously as well, at least half of my 200 hours is reading and instructor-led training.

Also, I have extensive notes and research that I maintain, which I would be happy to share with you privately. Mostly focused on understanding the law, ethics, and legal practices around this...but also some tactical information.

that's my :2cents:

Hope you find it useful.


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## hax9215

S&W Bodyguard 380. You can always have it on you, asy to fire with either hand, and at 3-5 ft. 9 mm. short is adequate.


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## Zwiefel

Oh, one last comment to my thoughts above: FAR more important than the hardware is the software...YOU are what is dangerous, not the firearm. You need to get something that has YOUR confidence, whatever that means for caliber, action type, capacity, ease of use, etc. Then you need to be able to operate it without thinking about how it works...should be second nature.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Zwiefel said:


> Oh, one last comment to my thoughts above: FAR more important than the hardware is the software...YOU are what is dangerous, not the firearm. You need to get something that has YOUR confidence, whatever that means for caliber, action type, capacity, ease of use, etc. Then you need to be able to operate it without thinking about how it works...should be second nature.



Very excellent point. Off topic but connected is everytime I show my SCUBA pics with sharks in it. First reaction to non-divers is I would never do that, they are so dangerous! I always respond that the SCUBA divers in the picture are WAAYYY more dangerous than a shark would ever be. People kill people.


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## maxim

I Will say Sorry in advance guys to get in to that thread, but as EU sitesent i dont quite undestand why you wil have guns in US :O
I will really like to 
Also is US so dangerous country ?? That you need to have guns to protect you ? 

I mean that guns is designed to kill not to stop an attak or protect you. If you want protection then you buy some kind of spray or electric shook or something.
I understand if you have riffles for hunting as a hoby, but to have hand firearm is quite weird to me. As its only purpose is to kill.

I just want to undestand what its all about  Is it really so many bad guys in US ? 
And please dont take it as offence ! I just curious 
Note, i never in my life hold a gun or shot with a gun.


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## Salty dog

It's about history, a young country born out of revolution and a general mistrust of government. "The right to bear arms" is in our constitution.
What has happened since is a matter of great debate. Perhaps the price of freedom? Knowing if the people want to over throw the government we can do it at any time.

I'm sure there are bad segments of the population in every country. We also happen to be the media capital of the world and they love to talk about crime and punishment.

Side note: The two recent mass shootings in my city were in the lilly white suburbs. That is scary.


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## Taz575

Firearms are also used for target shooting and competition, not just "killing"! I used to compete in Bullseye competitions and other pistol competitions and it was a lot of fun, met a lot of great people, etc. Even though it was a competition, it was a very friendly atmosphere and the people are always willing to help out newbies. It is also part of our Heritage like Salty pointed out; we stand up and fight for ourselves and our freedom. Calling the police to protect you is a joke; response time can range from minutes to hours, depending on your location and at that point you may be dead already. The point is to protect yourself or someone else and if that means taking a life, so be it. Pepper Spray and stun guns are not always available or effective. In my state, civilians cannot carry an electronic defense weapon (stun gun or Taser). Pepper Spray is a joke for serious criminals or those under the influence of various substances, drugs, alcohol, etc. In my security training, we are pepper sprayed and taught to fight through it. I have seen people being Tased and still running away from Police until the police K-9 pulled them down from a fence. Criminals in this country are very bold and will attack someone for no reason. Most people arrested are under the influence or drugs or alcohol, which means that reasoning/talking them down will most likely not work and pepper spray/electronic defense items may not work either. A firearm doesn't mean an instant kill (depending on shot placement, etc) or even a kill, but will be more effective against someone on drugs/alcohol. I've seen people shot thru the heart with a .45acp and sitting on the curb talking, not even phased by it on news shows. People can be killed by a .22lr if the shot placement is accurate and the area is vital. Some people claim that knife wounds are more dangerous than gun shot wounds and most people I have seen are really not accurate with a pistol at even close range, under no stress. Add in a stressful self defense situation and most people will freeze up if they haven't trained a lot. 

As for lots of bad guys in the US, yes, there are. Court systems are a joke and most of the people get out and commit more crimes and get smarter and tougher in jail. Drugs run rampant in the country and many crimes are committed for drug/alcohol money or to steal something to get the money. People need to be able to defend themselves and protect themselves, not just run away and hide. In England, one study I saw found that crimes involving firearms went up 300% AFTER firearms were outlawed and people had to turn them in. In the US, DC, Chicago and other areas with highly strict firearms laws have the most crimes/deaths with firearms. Why? The criminals know the citizens aren't armed and are therefore easier targets.


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## maxim

it answers many of my questions  
Thanks ! 

But really we dont have that much crime in Eu and all cary guns is band. And even knives
For the target shooting you can use special guns for that no need for pistols. Also it can be used just there, we have it in EU too  

On haretage we used to go with helmets and swords here in DK in Viking times, but we dont now. Its because times is changed and we evolved from that time. 

I am just talking about walking in the streets with guns not gun clubs or target shooting or any shooting hobys of any kind witch i undestand totally  
I dont undestand how people can cary a gun to work or to the shop. But if you say its very dengeros in US then i undestand.

I am also fallow you on your answer that anything can kill, knife rock fist iron pan. But they are not designed to kill they are also useful for other purposes. 

Sorry if i sound bad and i know its very sensible topic in US i will just like to widen my knowlige about it and undestand it better.


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## Salty dog

Many folks are anti gun in this country. There is also a "gun culture" which I'm a little embarassed to admit being a fringe member.

Most Americans don't own a handgun.


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## Taz575

I understand Maxim! It's a different culture/mindset over here. Many people think the Tasers and Pepper Spray actually work, but many of the times, they don't. Many countries banned guns, then when the criminals started to use knives, they had "turn your knife in" days and people were turning in their chefs knives that they used in the kitchen to get money for them! In Australia, they had the same thing. Banned guns, thugs turned to knives and swords, those were banned. Then they turned to their ancestral aborigine weaponry, that got banned too. So the gangs started carrying chains, tire irons, baseball bats, etc. Criminals will find something to use against someone, especially if they know the law abiding citizens can't carry anything!!

I work security and wish I could carry one of my pistols on my person. We are dealing with gang members, major drug dealers and stuff and occasionally find weapons on them. Off duty, I don't always carry, but there are times that I do carry.

One cool thing is that in the EU, many countries let people own "silencers" without all sorts of legal paperwork. It is considered polite to have them so you don't disturb other people with your shooting noise. In the US, movies have vilified silencers as the Assassins and Criminal's weapons and there are lots of legal hoops you need to jump through to own one. Some places they are still illegal in the US!


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## maxim

haha dont be , i bet if guns was ligel here in DK i will had one too ;D


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## mano

Salty dog said:


> There is also a "gun culture"



Then there are the technical enthusiasts who own lots of guns but don't do much shooting. Like some of the knife collector here.


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## stevenStefano

As another EU person I find these threads about guns fascinating. It is something so alien and different to me that I find it very interesting when everyone discusses them and they seem so normal. I'd say there's probably more guns about where I am than most other places in the EU :shotgun: but even so, people being shot is incredibly rare and when it does happen it's usually rather unsavoury characters on the receiving end anyway


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## Dave Martell

For a long (historical look) answer, we have the right keep and bear arms in the USA, a right that we are meant to believe is given to us by a higher power. The USA has (is supposed to have) a government comprised of the people and the idea of the people being armed is that the government should fear the people and this fear will keep them honest. 

For a shorter answer the unfortunate truth is that the USA can be a violent country, or maybe better said, the USA has a lot of crime that is violent. Guns are here already and bad guys have them (and always will) so good guys who don't want to be victims will equalize the threat(s) with carrying their own firearms.


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## Zwiefel

maxim said:


> I Will say Sorry in advance guys to get in to that thread, but as EU sitesent i dont quite undestand why you wil have guns in US :O
> I will really like to
> Also is US so dangerous country ?? That you need to have guns to protect you ?
> 
> I mean that guns is designed to kill not to stop an attak or protect you. If you want protection then you buy some kind of spray or electric shook or something.



Maxim,

I think there are a couple of misunderstandings here. How likely is it that I will face an attack that will require the use of a firearm? very very unlikely, I am relatively well-off, do not purchase drugs or other illegal items, do not linger in high-crime areas, and have good awareness skills. But...the COST of not being prepared in such a situation is unacceptably high. Much like a fire extinguisher, the odds that I will need to put out a fire in my home/car are very low, but the cost is extremely high if I fail to rise to that occassion as well. I consider a firearm as just another piece of emergency safety equipment like a seatbelt, or fire extinguisher.

Also, about 78% of people shot with a handgun survive. Killing someone with a handgun isn't like it is in the movies, and it isn't easy. People shot with shotguns and rifles survive at much lower rates.

Also, the second ammendment is really about the right of the people to overthrow their government. The language used there shifts from "the milita" to "the people" indicating that it is referencing two different populations:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

In other words, because the government must have armed forces to conduct government business, the people should be armed as well.

HTH helps it make more sense to you.


----------



## NO ChoP!

Our media has leant to the mentality that we are facing imminent danger; from our TV shows, movies, games, toys, newspapers, etc...we are surrounded with violence. Americans feel entitled. We were promised a dream. When we don't get what we want, and are exposed to violence, occasionally we act out. Others feel the need to protect their loved ones...its perpetual; and silly. As we are experiencing, other countries don't need fire arms to topple us...our guns will be useless against government when our economy collapses. We will instead use them on each other. Savage.


----------



## Canadian

While handguns are "restricted" under Canadian law, you can still own them and shoot them at the range...

It just so happens that I've shot a lot of handguns in various calibers. 10 years ago i would say .45 ACP, but now it's 9mm...

I like 9mm because it is low recoil thus my follow up shots are faster, they typically have a larger capacity in a smaller frame and ammo is cheap, widely available and thus I get out and practice with it more. Shot placement is key.

I say this because shot placement is so much more important than any of the other variables. This debate is like the debates some have on here about final edge polish, with microscopes and 3D scans. Any "theoretical" advantage really doesn't matter in the real world--spend this time shooting your gun (or cutting)

Which brings me to my next point. No amount of training will prepare a civilian for a deadly encounter with another individual. The only way to get around this is to train, train, train. I'm a BJJ practitioner of 8 years and sometimes still fight out of character in competition. This is because a person's physiological response to a stressful situation creates involuntary side affects that are not desirable. Train, train, TRAIN. This is what the military does and this is what martial artists do. The more you train the more your muscles remember, and even under stress will react with some semblance of how you trained. I think if you are carrying a gun the responsibility is much greater to be an expert at shooting it. That is also why I would recommend that you choose one platform and stick with it. No switching out different platforms for "variety" sake--a CC weapon is not a toy. 

Good luck.


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## maxim

Ok let me explane my take on this  Again please dont be ofended as i live in DK with super low crime rate we keep our doors open while we go to shop and even to other towns  our cars is open when we stay at our home, So as you undestand nut much crime. But still we have all guns forbidden and all knives over 120mm to cary with you in free time. 

Sorry but its not like with fire, you do not go around with fire extinguisher or alarm. 

If i go with a gun i constantly feel that i am in danger and need to protect my self or my loved ones from constant danger. 
That will make me feel paranoid to always feel that i need protection. So i think it is more government fault to not make people feel safe, or people don't want to feel safe ? 

I feel that US is quite modern country and not a development country where there is war. I understand if it was war place then you will need gun protection all the time.

But again i see it as a hobby, guns is super beautiful and some of them is work of art like knives


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## Zwiefel

maxim said:


> Ok let me explane my take on this  Again please dont be ofended as i live in DK with super low crime rate we keep our doors open while we go to shop and even to other towns  our cars is open when we stay at our home, So as you undestand nut much crime. But still we have all guns forbidden and all knives over 120mm to cary with you in free time.
> 
> Sorry but its not like with fire, you do not go around with fire extinguisher or alarm.
> 
> If i go with a gun i constantly feel that i am in danger and need to protect my self or my loved ones from constant danger.
> That will make me feel paranoid to always feel that i need protection. So i think it is more government fault to not make people feel safe, or people don't want to feel safe ?
> 
> I feel that US is quite modern country and not a development country where there is war. I understand if it was war place then you will need gun protection all the time.
> 
> But again i see it as a hobby, guns is super beautiful and some of them is work of art like knives



Can't speak for anyone else, but you won't offend me.

Actually, I keep a fire extinguisher in my car...so I do go around with one all the time. I keep a first-aid kit with me at all times as well. I can't imainge someone saying that a first-aid kit would make them paranoid though. After a few weeks of carrying a gun, you stop being constantly aware of it, just like your phone, car keys, coat, etc. 

I also go around with an alarm all the time: my cell phone 

finally, I also carry the other things you mentioned: pepper spray, small striking instruments, a flashlight, etc. a fairly wide continuum of options. Just part of the way I choose to live my life, not a reflection of any extraodinary danger that I live with. 

As to your crime stats...I think you'll find Switzerland has similar or perhaps lower crime rates to you but virtually every single home there has guns, and the military sells their surplus machine guns to the general public without any special licenses. These things are just tools...like kitchen knives. People are what is dangerous.

Also, despite a total ban for some decades, 10% of the homocides in England are with handguns. Chicago in the US had a total bad for a number of decades yet it is one of the most violent cities in the US. It's a question of culture and disposition, not of what is available.


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## Canadian

Attributing a low crime rate (or a healthy society in general) to strict gun control laws is unacademic. 

Denmark might have a _moderate_ crime rate (it's not low by any standard), it has one of the highest suicide rates in the world...

I guess what i am getting at is that the prevalence of firearms does not dictate how screwed up the socio-economic situation is, and that's what Maxim is hinting at.

In small town Canada people also leave there doors unlocked, keys in the ignition, etc. But I guarantee you most people lock their doors in Copenhagen...


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## Twistington

Canadian said:


> Attributing a low crime rate (or a healthy society in general) to strict gun control laws is unacademic.
> 
> Denmark might have a _moderate_ crime rate (it's not low by any standard), it has one of the highest suicide rates in the world...
> 
> I guess what i am getting at is that the prevalence of firearms does not dictate how screwed up the socio-economic situation is, and that's what Maxim is hinting at.
> 
> In small town Canada people also leave there doors unlocked, keys in the ignition, etc. But I guarantee you most people lock their doors in Copenhagen...




Usa, Canada, Denmark, Sweden etc are pretty equal in this "competition"... but not near the highest rates in the world.
_http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suicideprevent/en/_


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Many good observations here, and good explanations. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the majority of registered firearms in the US are owned by a small number of people, the vast majority are upstanding law abiding citizens. I.e. enthusiusts, collectors, doomsday predictors, hunters, competition shooters etc. The majority of the US population are not gun owners. I did not grow up in a household with guns, but I own quite a few now. Mostly because I am military, but also because I enjoy shooting and training. In addition, I feel safer with them but I have had quite a bit of training and am also a range safety officer. I don't consider myself a typical gun owner, I am not super paranoid. Hehe


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## Salty dog

Most people in the United States won't witness or be involved in a violent crime, any crime for that matter. ( Can't say what the stats are) I think the world press doesn't paint the prettiest picture.


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## Zwiefel

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> the majority of registered firearms in the US are owned by a small number of people



This is a slight overstatement. there are about 300,000,000 firearms owned by something like 100,000,000 people. More than a "small number of people" by far....but a definite minority, which I think was the main point.

Also, the likelihood of owning a firearm goes up quite a bit with your distance from a major city. (i.e. ownership is skewed towards less densely populate areas.)


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## maxim

Hmm 

Nr 2 worldwide 
Pretty selfe to me 
http://www.divinecaroline.com/31/82437-world-s-ten-safest-countries-visit/3



Canadian said:


> Attributing a low crime rate (or a healthy society in general) to strict gun control laws is unacademic.
> 
> Denmark might have a _moderate_ crime rate (it's not low by any standard), it has one of the highest suicide rates in the world...
> 
> I guess what i am getting at is that the prevalence of firearms does not dictate how screwed up the socio-economic situation is, and that's what Maxim is hinting at.
> 
> In small town Canada people also leave there doors unlocked, keys in the ignition, etc. But I guarantee you most people lock their doors in Copenhagen...


----------



## Zwiefel

Salty dog said:


> Most people in the United States won't witness or be involved in a violent crime, any crime for that matter. ( Can't say what the stats are) I think the world press doesn't paint the prettiest picture.



exactly. there aren't any news stories about how ~299,990,000 firearms weren't used to commit a crime today.

Movies don't help either...


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## maxim

Thanks guys very nice comments i undestand much more now


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## labor of love

I like how simple ice t explains the american gun owning point of view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GwIbyp4xBU


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## Salty dog

I do to.


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## NO ChoP!

...to protect ourselves from the police.

I've been wronged myself more than once.

I've also witnessed a violant crime more than once...

Paint the pictures how you want to. White America is relatively safe. Grow to in the hood, and you will have battle scars.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Zwiefel said:


> This is a slight overstatement. there are about 300,000,000 firearms owned by something like 100,000,000 people. More than a "small number of people" by far....but a definite minority, which I think was the main point.



Yes, that was my main point.


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## Canadian

maxim said:


> Hmm
> 
> Nr 2 worldwide
> Pretty selfe to me
> http://www.divinecaroline.com/31/82437-world-s-ten-safest-countries-visit/3




Sorry, but "divine caroline" is not the authoritative source on this subject.

Check interpol website. The Danes have a higher burglary and auto-theft rate relative to the US. Moreover, violent crime is on the rise...

I'm not trying to make this a pissing contest. I'm just stating the facts. Guns really have nothing to do with violent crimes other than the fact that they can be used to aid them or to prevent them, but so can a chef's knife...


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## geezr

Dave Martell said:


> I wanted to ask you gun toting folks what your opinion is on the great hand gun caliber debate. Do you go 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.....what's your preference and why?
> 
> Oh and I realize that this can turn into a religious/political type debate very easily but I'd appreciate cool heads here. Thanks



.45acp. Owned/shot handguns for 30+years. Sold my favorite/last gun  a Colt Commander, about 5 years ago. Recently met the new owner for the 1st time since he bought it. He is very happy with the gun and suggested I join him at the range so I just did. That Colt Commander still feels really good and I shot ok but I am done with hand guns. Then I got invited to shoot skeet - 1st time for me and actually hit a few targets. Never interested in long guns but now know how beautiful some o/u shotguns are!...:cool2:


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## maxim

I agree  Lets not make it in to contest.
And i am not saying what right or wrong here, i have no problem with guns at all 

But i talking about how safe i feel not much how many burglary there is. Police do they job very well and i think in 3 years here in DK we had like 1 unsolved homicide.
Please see it from my point of view i dont know any people or heard of any people where they say ohh i wish we had guns legal here or i wish i had a gun to protect my self, its actually other way around reduce as many firearm as posible. 

I know it is very different in some counties where guns is legal. 




Canadian said:


> Sorry, but "divine caroline" is not the authoritative source on this subject.
> 
> Check interpol website. The Danes have a higher burglary and auto-theft rate relative to the US. Moreover, violent crime is on the rise...
> 
> I'm not trying to make this a pissing contest. I'm just stating the facts. Guns really have nothing to do with violent crimes other than the fact that they can be used to aid them or to prevent them, but so can a chef's knife...


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## Dave Martell

I can see how gun carrying looks crazy to most people. I used to myself think that this was sort of stupid and unnecessary thing to do and I always figured that I'd never do that. I changed my mind a lot in the recent years when my kids came along and as I've got older and lost the sense of invincibility that I once had.


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## l r harner

i got my carry permit for when i go to shows. sepending on the show i might have quite a bit of $ and knives work more $ . while i woudl liek to think its only $ and if i woudl get robbed it woudl not be a big deal cause i can make more. fact is that if i lost a full shows worth of money i coulld not pay bills or buy more steel and wood to keep making $ i woudl likly loose everything in one fail swoop


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## Phip

Get what u can shoot comfortably. Statistically, most handgun rounds larger than a .22 take one point something, so call it two, shots to stop the bad guy. There's a huge statistically very significant improvement in stopping reliability when you move to a 20 gauge shotgun or a deer rifle. Best source for factual, sober advice on such things is on Grant Cunningham's website. He's a revolversmith and arms instructor in Oregon. His recommendation for a first hand gun for protection is the Glock 19.


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## DwarvenChef

I'm to old school, I like big slow bullets. 5 shot 44spcl is my all time choice. 

For me a high capacity 9 would sit in the cabinet doing no one any good. I have always had an affinty for revolvers and never could shoot autos with any comfort. If you have to carry I feel it needs to be something you are willing to put up with and can shoot properly when thinking is to slow for what is happening around you, and for me that is a revolver. 

I have nothing against people using autos and heck the big wigs that do this for a living all push the auto, they just don't work for me...


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## Salty dog

There have been six mass shootings in Wisconsin in the last five years. The Sikh Temple shooting was ten minutes from me and. the most recent incident at the beauty salon is in an area I frequent often.

Those kinds of things make me a little paranoid. I can keep myself out of trouble if I choose but this random crazy stuff is scary.


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## l r harner

dave, kelly loves her 9mm and does not have a problem with my 45 but since mine is a hair smaller and lighter its a bit more snappy both fit the same holsters (her G19 and my G36) we both have glock tec MIC holster that are great for low pro carry 

for me i jsut dont liek 40 cal and if i was going inbetween it woudl be 357sig i say 9MM and lots of ammo or 45acp (guess you could get the 45GAP but i hve sno problem with the grip size on my G36, the G21 on the other hand is like grabbing a 4x4 post (boy is it a soft shooter tho )


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## Doug Seward

Dave,
Did you ever pickup a handgun? I used to shoot IDPA and my carry guns are SIG P239 in 9mm and a Ruger GP100 .357. As far as ammo, Federal Hydra-shok for the SIG and my the last of my Winchester BlackTalon in the Ruger. Let me know if you want to go out shooting sometime. -Doug


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## Carl

I too am a .45 guy. If the 50AE weren't so expensive I'd rather carry that. Why? I'm a big bore snob. I like a big heavy slow moving bullet that makes a big hole and digs a long slow hole all the way through, crushes bone, punches through armor and makes the target "feel" the punch. There is real shock value in it that a smaller faster caliber doesn't have.

It suffers from a larger overall gun (normally), lower capacity (fewer bullets) and more recoil.

Smaller guns, the smallest of carries, also have few bullets, but are usually of smaller caliber, lower power, but less recoil (easier firing and follow up shots) and are easier to carry.

My #2 is a Charter Arms .44 Special Bulldog.


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## Salty dog

Speaking of the Sikh temple shooting: The first responding PO was shot 12 times with a Springfirld Armory 9mm XDM.
He survived with his greatest wound being the first he recieved, one in the face that traveled through his neck. The last shot the gunman took at him was from 10 feet away and it was a shot to the back of the head. (Was not his worse wound)

I want to know what ammo he was using? I'm also guessing that last shot was a "glancing" shot to the head. It actually made me re-think 9mm.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Interesting observation Salty.

I'm all .45, that is, if I don't have a rifle. My .45 XDM takes 13 rounds/1 in chamber. If that doesn't get me out of a gunfight to my rifle, I am screwed anyways.


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## Salty dog

He also took three center mass to the vest. I suppose that would have taken care of most vestless evil doers.


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## Keith Neal

Salty dog said:


> He also took three center mass to the vest. I suppose that would have taken care of most vestless evil doers.



Probably so. The question is, how long would it take to take care of him. Long enough for him to get really irritated and take you with him? A .45 usually solves that problem.


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## Chifunda

Mark me down as being staunch member of the .45 ACP fraternity. Shot competitively in the early days of the Southwest Pistol League and having been baptised in the Church of Jeff Cooper, I suppose it was inevitable. My carry piece is a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special, although I must confess that in hot weather I somtimes just slip a S&W 642-1 into my pocket. :O

I've shot a few big, mean, and nasty critters while hunting in Africa, which only served to reinforce my belief that a large caliber, heavy bullet traveling at moderate velocity is the best way to end a fight in a hurry. What works on a cape buffalo ought to work on bad guy.


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## quantumcloud509

I carry a Glock .40 with police issues hollows inside. I bought it from an ex-sheriff for a ri-diculous deal, and I have issues with passing ri-diculous deals. There - no religion or politics involved, and probably even non-pc.


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## Zwiefel

Round count + Caliber are not all that important, it's about about location. Here's a decent article that talks a little about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/nyregion/03shot.html?_r=1&

I wouldn't go smaller than 9mm/.38SPL though, below that the energies are too low to pass the FBI protocol...actually those rounds don't even have enough energy to splatter when firing ball ammo at a steel plate (the exception to that being 22lr).


----------



## DeepCSweede

geezr said:


> .45acp. Owned/shot handguns for 30+years. Sold my favorite/last gun  a Colt Commander, about 5 years ago. Recently met the new owner for the 1st time since he bought it. He is very happy with the gun and suggested I join him at the range so I just did. That Colt Commander still feels really good and I shot ok but I am done with hand guns. Then I got invited to shoot skeet - 1st time for me and actually hit a few targets. Never interested in long guns but now know how beautiful some o/u shotguns are!...:cool2:



If you enjoyed skeet - try to get out on a sporting clays course. It is a heck of a lot more fun and requires a lot more skill.


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## Carl

One last bit from me, this one on the gun rights questions from our non-American friends. Don't confuse "need" with "right." At the simplest level everyone has the "right" to defend themselves, as well as others, and their property, which we also have a right to (property). The right to own firearms has nothing to do with the need for safety, feeling in danger, or even an intended purpose like hunting, targeting or sport. As a right, not a privilege or an allowance, the idea is that it can not and should not be hindered by the government or anyone else who would want to limit the people's ability to defend themselves. The reality is not so pure, as there are many, in the government and among the people, who would welcome the hindrance, or outright refusal, of our rights to be an armed people. Some are simply misinformed, or have been conditioned against it. Others are less innocent, individuals or groups who would welcome an unarmed, and therefore undefended, public.

In short, of all our human rights, the right to defend ourselves, against all others including the government itself, is also the right to defend all the other rights we live by, the right to speak freely, the right to vote, the right to live. Without the right to bear arms, all other rights are vulnerable to a government who would wish to restrict all the other rights we have.


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## sachem allison

DwarvenChef said:


> I'm to old school, I like big slow bullets. 5 shot 44spcl is my all time choice.
> 
> For me a high capacity 9 would sit in the cabinet doing no one any good. I have always had an affinty for revolvers and never could shoot autos with any comfort. If you have to carry I feel it needs to be something you are willing to put up with and can shoot properly when thinking is to slow for what is happening around you, and for me that is a revolver.
> 
> I have nothing against people using autos and heck the big wigs that do this for a living all push the auto, they just don't work for me...



I love my 357 magnum Ruger blackhawk myself. I can hit just about anything with it up to a 100 yards, that's right 100yards. Trained by men who learned from Elmer Keith back in the day. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with an auto. Hell, I might not be able to hit anything with the Ruger it's been so long since I hit the range. at least 10 years. man, that sucks.


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## wino

Eloquent Carl


----------



## sachem allison

+1


Carl said:


> One last bit from me, this one on the gun rights questions from our non-American friends. Don't confuse "need" with "right." At the simplest level everyone has the "right" to defend themselves, as well as others, and their property, which we also have a right to (property). The right to own firearms has nothing to do with the need for safety, feeling in danger, or even an intended purpose like hunting, targeting or sport. As a right, not a privilege or an allowance, the idea is that it can not and should not be hindered by the government or anyone else who would want to limit the people's ability to defend themselves. The reality is not so pure, as there are many, in the government and among the people, who would welcome the hindrance, or outright refusal, of our rights to be an armed people. Some are simply misinformed, or have been conditioned against it. Others are less innocent, individuals or groups who would welcome an unarmed, and therefore undefended, public.
> 
> In short, of all our human rights, the right to defend ourselves, against all others including the government itself, is also the right to defend all the other rights we live by, the right to speak freely, the right to vote, the right to live. Without the right to bear arms, all other rights are vulnerable to a government who would wish to restrict all the other rights we have.


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## Duckfat

45 is an easy choice for me but the "best" is the one you shoot well and are comfortable with. A Kimber Ultra carry from the custom shop was one of the most accurate and sweetest I've had. I'm more of an old school advocate for revolvers in general and even a .22 can be a lot of deterrent. As far as ammo goes 9mm is going to be the king from my perspective in a SHTF scenario simply because it's standard NATO issue. 

Dave


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## Cipcich

So what are AR-15's and the like going for at Wal-Mart these days?


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## l r harner

price will be up in a week or 2


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

They run $1097 in Colorado, plus tax. (for a Colt 6920)


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## DwarvenChef

I'm to old school, plus worked on M-16's to long to ever have one... I'll stick with an M1A...


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

It's been interesting watching the country buy up every thing related to AR's this past week, to include first ever buyers. You can't find anything, anywhere. Have any of you panic bought yet?


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## mainaman

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> It's been interesting watching the country buy up every thing related to AR's this past week, to include first ever buyers. You can't find anything, anywhere. Have any of you panic bought yet?


all manufacturers are smiling right now.


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## Noodle Soup

Anyone that didn't see this coming and didn't start preparing a year or so ago was very foolish. Frankly, I started buying what ever I thought I might ever want or need as soon as the original "assaults weapons" ban sunsetted.


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## Duckfat

mainaman said:


> all manufacturers are smiling right now.



So are those who held their stocks waiting for the Santa Claus Rally. 

Dave


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

I'm pretty set for the most part, I can't see myself using more than what I have. Of course, if I stocked up like some I could be making $100 a mag right now. I probably could sell my LT OBR 5.56 for a crazy amount if I wanted to, but I lusted after it for so long I can't let myself sell it. Only frustrating thing was I was waiting to February to put in a LT OBR 7.62 but with this now, I am way behind the game. 

It is amusing read/watch the media stumble over "clips" and "assault" terminology. Aren't you supposed to know/research about the material you are writing about? So much for credible reporting.


----------



## l r harner

i had been lusting over an AR10T carbine and missed the boat (never really had the play $$ to buy a 1700$ toy )
i might settle on a AR in 9mm or 45acp and really use it for HD since while im good with my glock i know i woudl be better with a carbine and kelly getts the shottie 

funny thing is that i have liek 7 30 round mags and not one AR to put them in yet i never sold them


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

If you want to sell them to me Butch, let me know. The Pmags are the big seller, so if you have them you might want to throw them on the bay.


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## jmforge

Who knows? This time they might not fall for just outlawing the manufacture and commericial sale of high capacity magazines and try to ban the private sale or transfer os existing ones as part of closing the alleged "gun show loophole" or some other claptrap. I don't know if they are confident enough to try and declare them contraband or move them over into the prohibited/Class 3 category...........yet. i also doubt that any new proposed law will allowed companies to keep selling the "assault rifles" by just removing the flash hider, bayonet lug and pistol grip like in 1994. The anti-gunners learned from that and have been waiting for an opportunity like this.


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## SpikeC

the government should just be killed, then we would all be free.


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## franzb69

+1 on spikec 

=D


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## Cipcich

Surely you jest.


----------



## Salty dog

+2 on Spike:biggrin:

Hey Butch, If you can pick up a Berreta Cx4 in 9 or .45 you'd be set. I have the 9 with a x2 nightscope for HD, love it.

I have to be able to cover the dark restaurant which could require shots up to 40 yards.


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## Cipcich

SpikeC said:


> the government should just be killed, then we would all be free.



But then where would your government checks come from?


----------



## l r harner

my mags are not Pmags they are preban millspec (read that as 28 round  )

i think i would want to have 2 uppers built and likly the 5.56 woudl be the one in the safe gettign the least use. i have 9mm 45acp and 308 on hand for my pistols and hunting bolt action i really didnt want to add another cal to the mix


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## TheNewMexican

Regarding the original post, I just picked up a CZ75b in matte stainless. The ergonomics are really great and I am impressed regarding the fit and finish. 










This is my first foray out of the 45ACP / 1911 realm to which I've been dedicated to going on two decades. When I opened up the box of 9mm cartridges, first impressions were like really??? These things are half the size of a 45. Depending how things go, the CZ may just be a practice platform for cheap ammo. Maybe with the 115 gr corbons at 1350fps I'll feel more comfortable. These CZ's also come on .40 S&W.

Also got my stock of M14 mags for my M1A. What's coming? A lot of silliness by people who don't know chit! People like my mother in law......:eyebrow:


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## Duckfat

I'm not going to say I don't miss the Kimber but I've gone old school. It's not how many shots ya got it's how well you place them. 

Dave


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## jmforge

Duckfat said:


> I'm not going to say I don't miss the Kimber but I've gone old school. It's not how many shots ya got it's how well you place them.
> 
> Dave


 ......until you get to the seventh zombie. ;-)


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## TheNewMexican

Dave,

That's a really nice piece. I especially like the blue on the screws and trigger. Very nice.......


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## Duckfat

Thanks, I'm a sucker for case coloring and fire blue. That work was done by Doug Turnbull.

Dave


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

I can't stand revolvers but that is classy my friend.


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## Duckfat

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I can't stand revolvers but that is classy my friend.



.38's and French Press coffee for the KKF shoot out! 
All kidding aside revolvers are an aquired taste. The only other one I had that I cared much for was a J-frame Smith.


Dave


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## cwrightthruya

Bulldogbacchus said:


> I used to be a fan of Glock 9mm.....until I took care of a guy who was shot 9 times with a 9mm, and he walked out of he hospital 4 days later. So, 45 until you can fight your way to a shotgun or a rifle.......



I was working the ER when a "gentleman" walked in after driving himself 5 miles, with 2- 9mm slugs in his face. Shot placement is the upmost importance, no matter the caliber of handgun. But, for what it's worth, I've taken just about every handgun caliber out of a person possible, and I carry a .45 with ranger talons....nothing less. 

Regards,
Chris


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## cwrightthruya

Oh and Dave. I second..third...fourth...the idea of a 1911. I currently own or have owned, Kimber, Colt, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, and one very special Luke Volkmann. I have to say, I trust them in that order. If you get a kimber, you may love it, but you also may have reliability issues. The colt is built as a combat pistol and I currently carry one of the first production Colt Night Defenders as my primary CCW. I have put over 10k rounds down the barrel without a problem. Good luck in your quest.


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## add

Great pic and gun Dave.

I have a S&W K-22 Masterpiece I got soon after high school. 
It could sure use a makeover.

Do you have Turnbull's contact info?


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## SpikeC

As the 2nd amendment was written in the 1700's, only guns from that period should be legal. Muzzle loads, my friends! Then to do a mass killing you have to carry 40 firearms!


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## jmforge

Actually, when the 2nd was passed, many civilians had MORE modern weapons than the military, so...............


SpikeC said:


> As the 2nd amendment was written in the 1700's, only guns from that period should be legal. Muzzle loads, my friends! Then to do a mass killing you have to carry 40 firearms!


----------



## Duckfat

add said:


> Do you have Turnbull's contact info?



Fair warning. Viewing this site can lead to a loss of cash! 

http://www.turnbullmfg.com/store.asp?pid=32018&catid=19872


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

SpikeC said:


> As the 2nd amendment was written in the 1700's, only guns from that period should be legal. Muzzle loads, my friends! Then to do a mass killing you have to carry 40 firearms!



I know, i've been educating my Commander on the Constitution and told him that we need to get rid of airplanes, smart bombs, satelite survelience, and everything after the 1700's. We need to get back to our roots. Wonder how long we would last?


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## l r harner

cwrightthruya said:


> Oh and Dave. I second..third...fourth...the idea of a 1911. I currently own or have owned, Kimber, Colt, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, and one very special Luke Volkmann. I have to say, I trust them in that order. If you get a kimber, you may love it, but you also may have reliability issues. The colt is built as a combat pistol and I currently carry one of the first production Colt Night Defenders as my primary CCW. I have put over 10k rounds down the barrel without a problem. Good luck in your quest.



i wanted a 1911 but worried about the reliability of any of the sub 1k$ pistols that how i ended up getting the single stack glock 36 after more then 1k rounds only had maybe 3 (early on learning to shoot fails) and it carries great


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## Zwiefel

SpikeC said:


> As the 2nd amendment was written in the 1700's, only guns from that period should be legal. Muzzle loads, my friends! Then to do a mass killing you have to carry 40 firearms!



This is coming awfully close to the political line, I'll make the following comments, then say no more (unless you want to PM me). 

Actually nearly all of the recent incidents did involve multiple firearms, usually 4+.

By this logic, Freedom of the Press wouldn't apply to radio/tv/internet. Right against search and seizure wouldn't apply to any electronic media. rinse, repeat. This argument has been used in numerous courts throughout the US in many different contexts and has lost. It's just silly.


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## Cipcich

I'm going to give Spike credit for going for silly. Which is more than I can say for #'s 123-127.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Cipcich said:


> I'm going to give Spike credit for going for silly. Which is more than I can say for #'s 123-127.



I take offense to this, my post was half serious/half silly.


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## Lucretia

After reading this I'm really ticked off. My mom passed away this year, and my greedy sisters & their husbands went in to her house and made off with all my mother's jewelry and my dad's guns. I'd been promised a 1911 that he'd bought brand new for $10 when he got out of the Navy. That was a great gun. Good thing they didn't know what they were looking at when it came to knives...at least I got the Randall.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Lucretia said:


> After reading this I'm really ticked off. My mom passed away this year, and my greedy sisters & their husbands went in to her house and made off with all my mother's jewelry and my dad's guns. I'd been promised a 1911 that he'd bought brand new for $10 when he got out of the Navy. That was a great gun. Good thing they didn't know what they were looking at when it came to knives...at least I got the Randall.



That would make me mad too, BTW much better avatar than before


----------



## Zwiefel

Cipcich said:


> I'm going to give Spike credit for going for silly.



Possibly, I certainly can't read minds...I have seen this argument put forth seriously in a number of venues in the past several days though, including by normally thoughtful people. Apologies if I put unwelcome intentions behind your words Spike.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Zwiefel said:


> Possibly, I certainly can't read minds...I have seen this argument put forth seriously in a number of venues in the past several days though, including by normally thoughtful people. Apologies if I put unwelcome intentions behind your words Spike.



No need to apologize, I thought Spike was being ironic when I wrote what I wrote. It's a highly debated topic and responsible and legal gun owners are on the attack and rightfully so. 

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


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## Lucretia

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> BTW much better avatar than before



And here I'd dressed up in my Sunday best for the old avatar! :sad0:


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

It's soon to be a sad state of affairs in NY with a bill they are about to pass. I always thought California was the worst place for gun owners. Hopefully PA will not absorb any of that unconstitutional craziness, or I will be retiring in the midwest.


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## DwarvenChef

Laws like this are tested here in CA and soon start infecting other locations... sorry to say... I really hate CA...


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## Dave Martell

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> It's soon to be a sad state of affairs in NY with a bill they are about to pass. I always thought California was the worst place for gun owners. Hopefully PA will not absorb any of that unconstitutional craziness, or I will be retiring in the midwest.




PA is getting weaker, our reps are bending over too.


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## Salty dog

Although I'm into knives and guns I don't consider myself a nut. I try and distance myself from redneck thinkers. Probably why I'm lonely. I can't warm up to the nuts on the left either.


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## Zwiefel

My goal as a representative of the community is to display quiet competence while making sure everyone has fun safely. Whether at the range, on in the grocery store parking lot.

I've been really disappointed at the bluster from people who should know better lately...on both sides, but especially those in the community.


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## jmforge

Salty, for better or worse, the "nuts" are our coal mine canaries when it comes to ALL rights. There arent' too many important First Amendment cases decided on the issue of whether the local paper can run a story about the church bake sale without letting the preacher look at it first.


Salty dog said:


> Although I'm into knives and guns I don't consider myself a nut. I try and distance myself from redneck thinkers. Probably why I'm lonely. I can't warm up to the nuts on the left either.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Salty dog said:


> Although I'm into knives and guns I don't consider myself a nut. I try and distance myself from redneck thinkers. Probably why I'm lonely. I can't warm up to the nuts on the left either.



I consider myself that way too, and my passion is not so much with guns as it is with the Constitution. 

As I watch and observe arguments on both sides, I understand why people want and don't want guns. Extreme views on either side aren't helping the cause out. I, for one, am about better background checks and closing the gun show loophole. In case you didn't know, many states you can purchase a gun without a NICS background check as long as it is a personal sale. I think that is reasonable. Other than that, there are thousands of gun laws in this country that are not enforced. Why don't we focus on enforcing the ones we have on the books. 

I will say the anti-gun folks, you know the Piers Morgan types, I abhore. Everytime they interview a pro-gun person, they always say lets have a mature and rational discussion. Then they throw out fear-mongering opinions, factless points, and typical media induced falacies. I thought you were supposed to know about the subject before you debate someone on it? Terminology, FBI facts, documented statistics, and the Constitution on thrown down the drain with anti-gun activists. They just want to feel "safe". Ironically, most the high profile anti-gun activists have armed body guards and concealed weapons permits. Hypocrite anyone?

Interesting facts: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20

Did you know in New York in 2011 (2012 is still preliminary), only 5 deaths were attibuted to rifles, and AR15's are broken down in with bolt action, .22's, etc.! Look at the chart, rifles only accounted for 384 deaths nationwide (my math might be a few off)! Most of the gun deaths in this country are gang related, hence why California is so high. 

Perfect example of fear mongering and the ignorance of antis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECxDvwObwZk&feature=youtu.be and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJdhAm_oUUs

This whole thing makes me sick.


----------



## daveb

I like to hunt and want to be able to defend myself and home from bad guys. As such I consider myself an enthusiast but not a zealot. Setting Constitutional arguments and the ineffectiveness of laws to curtail criminal behavior aside, my problem with the current outcry and proposed "solutions" is one of definition.

I own a semi-auto deer rifle chambered for .308. A detachable magazine holds 4 rounds. Banning "assault" weapons is appealing (to some) political rhetoric. But how would a definition be crafted that applied to the AR-15, et al that did not include my rifle? Or my composite stocked semi-auto shotgun?

My preferred deer rifle is composite stocked, bolt action with 14x scope. Is it to be defined as a sniper rifle?

As a final thought my shotgun did not kill the ducks in my avatar - I did.


----------



## jmforge

What most people don't understand is that the people really pushing for gun control the hardest will NOT be satisfied with jus banning evil black guns. Sure, that would probably qualify as paranoia if many of them had not already come out in the past and admitted that very thing. Remember that before Heller, NYC, DC and Chicago had effectively banned the possession of all handguns by most citizens. Once Heller came along, the first thing they tried to do in DC was figure out a way to get around Heller and not issue any pistol permits. As such, any argument that the "nuts" are seeing monsters in their closet should be examined in the light of what their opponents have said in public.


----------



## daveb

******* said:


> banned the possession of all handguns by most law abiding citizens. .



Fixed it for you....

The rest is spot on.


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## Dave Martell

I have some strong opinions on this subject that I want to express here but I think it's best that I keep them to myself as they're too political in nature. Let's all keep in mind that this forum should not be used for political talk.


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## Dave Martell

Any NY'ers moving after today?


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

It's official. New York is a Communist State.


----------



## kalaeb

Just duct tape the magazine to the stock and it is no longer detachable, and according to NY, no longer an assault weapon......


and fill most your high capacity magazines with lead so it can only fit 7 rounds.


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## quantumcloud509

Og ANGRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sorry. Im seriously getting fired up about the constitution getting tampered with. I am so mad. And its not good or ok. Anger problems are bad. GRRRAAAAWWWWRRRRRRR You no touchy my freedom mr sir. I push back hard.


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## Dusty

Since Australia made similar bans on assault weapons and machine guns, and implemented a gun buyback, there have been no more mass shootings - we used to average one every year. 

Just sayin'


----------



## Duckfat

Dave Martell said:


> Any NY'ers moving after today?



I've got a few neighbors I'd like to export to NY!:nunchucks:


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## Igasho

I owned a Springfield 1911 .45cal and a Springfield XD 9mm, for concealed I carried the XD that I had well over 6500 rounds through. As I'm sure you've guessed I carried the XD because it was like an extension of my hand when I was holding it. I feel that whatever you do finally decide to carry, make sure you are extremely comfortable and familiar with it.


----------



## mhlee

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> It's official. New York is a Communist State.



I have to disagree. If New York were a Communist State, JP Morgan would not have had a 4th quarter profit of $5.7 BILLION.


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## jmforge

Really? What were the quarterly profits of some of the big isurance companies in communist China? :biggrin:


mhlee said:


> I have to disagree. If New York were a Communist State, JP Morgan would not have had a 4th quarter profit of $5.7 BILLION.


----------



## mhlee

******* said:


> Really? What were the quarterly profits of some of the big isurance companies in communist China? :biggrin:



From what I read, not a single Chinese insurance company had a recent quarterly profit of 5.7 billion dollars (don't forget the exchange rate). 

You still consider China to be a "Communist" country?


----------



## jmforge

mhlee said:


> From what I read, not a single Chinese insurance company had a recent quarterly profit of 5.7 billion dollars (don't forget the exchange rate).
> 
> You still consider China to be a "Communist" country?


 THEY consider it to be a communist country, so I will take them at their word. ;-)


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## EdipisReks

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> It's official. New York is a Communist State.



how is that an even vaguely sensical statement?


----------



## chinacats

I own a shotgun (though not for self defense) I just don't understand the need for people to own an AR-15. As to the constitution, I feel that it's purpose (2nd amendment) is outdated for this argument. That said, I am fine with people owning guns for hunting/personal defense. 

Sorry, just my 2 cents and I know I am probably in the minority here, no offense intended...just sick of the violence. And yes, I'm just an old hippy...so maybe that helps explain my position.


----------



## Duckfat

God help us all if the Constitution becomes "out dated". I sincerely hope our forefathers didn't fight and die for a concept with an expiration date. If this keeps up before long I'll have to register my EDC and surrender any knives over 240mm because any thing longer cound be an assault weapon. :no:


----------



## EdipisReks

Duckfat said:


> If this keeps up before long I'll have to register my EDC and surrender any knives over 240mm because any thing longer cound be an assault weapon. :no:



how is that an even vaguely sensical statement?


----------



## mhlee

Ah. Glad to know that you have been able to confirm with the majority of the over 1.3 billion people in China that they consider China to be a communist country.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

EdipisReks said:


> how is that an even vaguely sensical statement?



How is this even vaguely a coherent sentence? 

Although not true, NY is setting the stage to remove 2A rights for the future. Dictatorship may be a better way to put it. What if NY legislature were to limit your 1A rights, with plans to have an all-freedom of speech ban in the future? Would you be so forgiving?


----------



## Igasho

I am a US citizen, but I have since chosen not to vote as I am currently living in Canada, I don't feel right choosing people to put into seats of power to govern over a county I don't live in.
Here's the problem, as a Nation the American's have voted for the people who are tampering with the constitution. The Americans asked for this to happen by choosing to put the people they did into power.



quantumcloud509 said:


> Og ANGRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sorry. Im seriously getting fired up about the constitution getting tampered with. I am so mad. And its not good or ok. Anger problems are bad. GRRRAAAAWWWWRRRRRRR You no touchy my freedom mr sir. I push back hard.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

EdipisReks said:


> how is that an even vaguely sensical statement?



http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20

Based on FBI stats knives kill more people than rifles.


----------



## EdipisReks

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20
> 
> Based on FBI stats knives kill more people than rifles.



that has nothing to do with it being a non-sensical statement: there is no wide spread social movement to ban knives in the united states, and there have been no highly publicized kitchen knife massacres, so the simple "if A then B" statement does not follow. the frantic hyperbole does nothing to support the implied position.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Dusty said:


> Since Australia made similar bans on assault weapons and machine guns, and implemented a gun buyback, there have been no more mass shootings - we used to average one every year.
> 
> Just sayin'



US and Australia are different countries with different histories and culture, or are you in the mindset of making the world homogenous? And using the term "just sayin'" is hugely condescending, as if you are all knowing and we are idiots. This is a hugely complicated issue that can't be solved by spouting off random opinions without documented stats.


----------



## Igasho

Actually I guess you could say its my fault as well for abstaining my vote, instead of using my vote to try to counter the people that want to take rights away.....through this revelation I apologize for not voting.



Igasho said:


> I am a US citizen, but I have since chosen not to vote as I am currently living in Canada, I don't feel right choosing people to put into seats of power to govern over a county I don't live in.
> Here's the problem, as a Nation the American's have voted for the people who are tampering with the constitution. The Americans asked for this to happen by choosing to put the people they did into power.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

EdipisReks said:


> that has nothing to do with it being a non-sensical statement: there is no wide spread social movement to ban knives in the united states, and there have been no highly publicized kitchen knife massacres, so the simple "if A then B" statement does not follow. the frantic hyperbole does nothing to support the implied position.



So you are saying that the widespread social movement to remove semi-automatic weapons is based on isolated mental health issue killers? And just because it is not highly publicized does not make the families of those killed by knives any less important? The media machine is about making headlines and money, why would they make a knife killing national news?


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

chinacats said:


> I own a shotgun (though not for self defense) I just don't understand the need for people to own an AR-15. As to the constitution, I feel that it's purpose (2nd amendment) is outdated for this argument. That said, I am fine with people owning guns for hunting/personal defense.
> 
> Sorry, just my 2 cents and I know I am probably in the minority here, no offense intended...just sick of the violence. And yes, I'm just an old hippy...so maybe that helps explain my position.



Outdated? I don't even know where to start. Maybe this country isn't for you. The violence today is no different than the past, we just have 24 hour non-stop news coverage. Actually murder rates have cut in half in the last 30 years in the US. Put the smart phone away, turn off the tv, and live life.

My need to own an AR-15 is for practice when I deploy, though I support a civilians desire to own one for defense against tyranny. Don't think that would ever happen? I am sure the Japanese American citizens during WW2 would disagree. Just as the 1A way of free speech has changed since the inception of the Consititution, and we have moved from quills/parchment paper to computers and such, the same applies for the 2A. Technology changes, but our founding documents are timeless.


----------



## EdipisReks

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> So you are saying that the widespread social movement to remove semi-automatic weapons is based on isolated mental health issue killers?



"there is no widespread social movement to ban knives in the united states" and "there have been no highly publicized kitchen knife massacres" are contained within a single sentence, but are two clauses. 



> And just because it is not highly publicized does not make the families of those killed by knives any less important?



non-sequitor. 

this thread is silly, and would appear to be against the rules of the forum. i personally like and own guns. i don't like histrionics.


----------



## mhlee

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> My need to own an AR-15 is for practice when I deploy, though I support a civilians desire to own one for defense against tyranny. Don't think that would ever happen? I am sure the Japanese American citizens during WW2 would disagree. Just as the 1A way of free speech has changed since the inception of the Consititution, and we have moved from quills/parchment paper to computers and such, the same applies for the 2A. Technology changes, but our founding documents are timeless.



Your comment about Japanese American citizens is downright offensive and appalling. You honestly believe that had the Japanese Americans used weapons to fight against their internment that they would have prevailed or that they would have been able to defend "against tyranny"? Most Japanese Americans were herded in large groups and transported under threat of use of military force. 

Had a single Japanese American responded to their internment by using a rifle or similar weapon, there may have been a massacre in the thousands. And based on prevailing racist sentiment against Japanese at that time, bloodshed would have been inevitable.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Offensive and appalling? Over state much? Send me your address and I'll send you a handwritten apology. My point was that the US government is not so swell when times are tough, and we need the ability to fight back. We can go back and forth all day, but I sense that it would amount to nothing. 

As a US military member, I swore to uphold the Constitution against all enemies, foriegn and domestic. I see a lot of domestic enemies these days.


----------



## Dusty

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> US and Australia are different countries with different histories and culture, or are you in the mindset of making the world homogenous? And using the term "just sayin'" is hugely condescending, as if you are all knowing and we are idiots. This is a hugely complicated issue that can't be solved by spouting off random opinions without documented stats.



No it's not condescending, I was trying to be polite whilst espousing what I thought would be an unpopular belief. 

It would be hugely naive to suggest that the Australian situation and the American are identical, as there are for more guns in America and our attitudes to guns are different. 

The second amendment right to bare arms is based on the idea that a well armed citizenry won't be oppressed. What. I don't understand is if this amendment guarantees you the right to an assault rifle why does it not guarantee you the right to a rocket launcher, anti-personnel land mines and ballistic missiles? After all, your government has all of these weapons and the well regulated militia needs to assure the security of a free state. 

I'm not trying to be patronizing or condescending, I just don't understand the distinction.


----------



## Lucretia

What bothers me most about this sort of thing is that the government takes no action for extended periods of time, whether it be enforcement of existing laws or creation of new laws, and then when a crisis occurs, action is based on a knee-jerk response. Whether it be gun control, fiscal cliffs, debt ceilings, fertilizer bombs--something bad happens, and only then is action taken. And instead of a well thought out, negotiated approach, we have to do something RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW. Then in 6 months the American people will lose interest and it will be another crisis that needs action RIGHT NOW!!!!! 

As far as the constitutionality of things, those of us in the US are fortunate enough to live in a country with separation of powers. I'm sure that any changes to gun laws will appear before the Supreme Court at some point.

Of course, what do I know? According to the Constitution as originally written, I'm just an uppity woman who shouldn't even be allowed to vote.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Lucretia said:


> What bothers me most about this sort of thing is that the government takes no action for extended periods of time, whether it be enforcement of existing laws or creation of new laws, and then when a crisis occurs, action is based on a knee-jerk response. Whether it be gun control, fiscal cliffs, debt ceilings, fertilizer bombs--something bad happens, and only then is action taken. And instead of a well thought out, negotiated approach, we have to do something RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW. Then in 6 months the American people will lose interest and it will be another crisis that needs action RIGHT NOW!!!!!
> 
> As far as the constitutionality of things, those of us in the US are fortunate enough to live in a country with separation of powers. I'm sure that any changes to gun laws will appear before the Supreme Court at some point.
> 
> Of course, what do I know? According to the Constitution as originally written, I'm just an uppity woman who shouldn't even be allowed to vote.



This is probably the most objective post here. I am passionate, no doubt, and I respect everyones right to free speech (1A) on the matter but Lucretia pretty much hit it on the nose. Everything we do thse days is knee jerk. Thousands of laws, and very few are enforced, which is why we are in the position we are today.


----------



## EdipisReks

Lucretia said:


> What bothers me most about this sort of thing is that the government takes no action for extended periods of time, whether it be enforcement of existing laws or creation of new laws, and then when a crisis occurs, action is based on a knee-jerk response. Whether it be gun control, fiscal cliffs, debt ceilings, fertilizer bombs--something bad happens, and only then is action taken. And instead of a well thought out, negotiated approach, we have to do something RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW RIGHT NOW. Then in 6 months the American people will lose interest and it will be another crisis that needs action RIGHT NOW!!!!!



Congress is highly balkanized, and in many ways artificially so, which prevents almost anything from being accomplished or reformed, unless there is a sudden and sufficient public interest to push an issue into motion. the result is exactly what you describe.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Dusty said:


> No it's not condescending, I was trying to be polite whilst espousing what I thought would be an unpopular belief.
> 
> It would be hugely naive to suggest that the Australian situation and the American are identical, as there are for more guns in America and our attitudes to guns are different.
> 
> The second amendment right to bare arms is based on the idea that a well armed citizenry won't be oppressed. What. I don't understand is if this amendment guarantees you the right to an assault rifle why does it not guarantee you the right to a rocket launcher, anti-personnel land mines and ballistic missiles? After all, your government has all of these weapons and the well regulated militia needs to assure the security of a free state.
> 
> I'm not trying to be patronizing or condescending, I just don't understand the distinction.



I appreciate you explaining that a bit. In a real civil war, where small arms combat is likely (look at the current wars and the populations weapons of choice), the AR15 is the most likely weapon to be effective against a military. I've been in the military 17 years and am very familiar with these scenarios. I think arguments about weapons that are already illegal and hugely over the top are not worth mentioning. Not to downplay your argument, but many military and LEO's would abandon post before they would be turned on citizens. I know I would. Most of the legal AR15 owners have it because of potential oppression, as you stated, but also for pleasure shooting, hunting, and home defense. BTW, the AR15 is the civilian version of the military M4, not the same weapon but would hold up well in a civil war. I hope we never have to find out.


----------



## labor of love

why would anybody think that new laws forbidding high capacity ammo magazines, and banning certain assault rifles, and new background check regulations would lead to an eventual complete disarmament?


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Why would resticting release of public information on gun owners lead to eventual free speech restriction? It's in bad taste, but I believe it was legal. In a free society, we have to take the good and the bad that comes with it.


----------



## labor of love

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Why would resticting release of public information on gun owners lead to eventual free speech restriction? It's in bad taste, but I believe it was legal. In a free society, we have to take the good and the bad that comes with it.



what are you refering to?


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

NY just passed a law stating you cannot publish public information about gun owners, from Decembers fiasco dealing with The Journal News.


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## mhlee

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Offensive and appalling? Over state much? Send me your address and I'll send you a handwritten apology. My point was that the US government is not so swell when times are tough, and we need the ability to fight back. We can go back and forth all day, but I sense that it would amount to nothing.
> 
> As a US military member, I swore to uphold the Constitution against all enemies, foriegn and domestic. I see a lot of domestic enemies these days.



Also, as part of your oath, you also agreed to obey the orders of the President of the United States. So if you're going to "fight back" against an order of the government, I guess that would be a breach of your oath. 

And, it was offensive and appalling to Japanese Americans, which is what I am. And your comments and especially those who were interned, and subsequently fought in WWII as part of the 442nd Battalion or 100th Regiment because one of the well documented reasons why Japanese Americans did not fight back was their faith in the US, what it stood for, and belief that by not fighting back, and in turn, fighting for the US (and its government), they were doing the right thing. Had they done as you proposed (which you didn't even bother to respond to), they would have been massacred. The pictures of people being taken to staging locations and, ultimately, internment camps show that US military with rifles, machine guns were the ones herding the Japanese Americans. Fighting force with force then would have resulted in the death of many civilians (which, based on your position, is apparently acceptable). 

You don't owe me an apology. You owe an apology to these people because, according to you, had they had guns, they should have fought back when the threat of internment came. (Frankly, I'm positive some of them had guns, they just chose not to use them.) 

Go For Broke National Education Center
HEADQUARTERS 
367 Van Ness Way, Suite 611 
Torrance, CA 90501 
Phone: (310) 328-0907 
Fax: (310) 222-5700 
http://www.goforbroke.org/

JAPANESE AMERICAN NATIONAL MUSEUM
100 N Central Avenue
Los Angeles, California 90012
phone: 213.625.0414
toll-free: 800.461.5266
fax: 213.625.1770
http://www.janm.org/ 

http://njamf.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100th_Infantry_Battalion_(United_States)

You obviously don't understand Japanese Americans, know enough about our culture, or what motivated the thousands of Japanese American young men to join the US military and fight and die in WWII for the US after having been interned. You owe THEM an apology. They believed in the Constitution. They believed in the US. They are heroes. A number of them are also my friends. That's why your comment was offensive and appalling. 

And you - you would obviously fight or shoot back, rather than use the democratic process (or rather, fight back against the democratic process), which is set forth in the Constitution as well as the rights of States to govern. You took an oath to uphold the _entire_ Constitution, but you choose to cherry pick what portions of the Constitution you choose to "uphold."


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## Dave Martell

Before it gets too crazy let's shut this down.


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