# Shun Fuji - are they paying attention?



## Justin0505 (May 30, 2012)

I was in WS the other day (returning something not knife related) and couldn't help but take a stroll by the knife case. I hadn't really been keeping up with "main stream" knives so the "Shun Fuji" line was new to me. 
I don't want to start yet another thread about the pros and cons of Shuns, I just wanted to comment that the blade profiles - especially on the main chef's knife stuck me as very different for Shun. It's probably the least European profile that I've seen from them (aside from their pro/ single bevel line). the handle has obvious influence from the Kramer Meji knockoffs that they did. The profile seemed rather TKCish, but blade was much wider overall, especially at the heel.... it actually doesn't look too far off from the custom blade shape of my Rader. 

I didn't get a chance to play with it, because the poor sales person was being bombarded by a couple looking for a Shun rock n' roll or rollie pollie or whatevertheheckyoucallthisthing 

However, there still seem to be some "features" that anyone other than the rollie pollie crowed may question: such as the intentionally handle-heavy design (if you watch the video on the linked WS page, they claim it's so that the knife falls handle first when you drop it... maybe shun got tired of replacing broken tips?) 

... and they still riddled the sides with more holes than a Moritaka... although these are supposedly "speed holes" that help with sticking or something... (always reminds me of this: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVV_COOey0E & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAPmqX-FyvU)

Anyway, I guess my point/ purpose is that I thought that it was interesting that Shun was making some knives that at least *look* different from their typical, more euro-profiled blades. Do you think that this is influenced from them paying attention to the knife knuts and high-end custom market, or just coincidence? 

WS page & video: http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/shun-fuji-chefs-knife/?pkey=cshun-fuji


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## mhlee (May 30, 2012)

Justin0505 said:


> I didn't get a chance to play with it, because the poor sales person was being bombarded by a couple looking for a Shun rock n' roll or rollie pollie or whatevertheheckyoucallthisthing



I would call that the Shun CTS (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome).


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## cwrightthruya (May 30, 2012)

Even though the profile seems more in line with what I like to use, I am not sure I could bring myself to pay $400 for a single shun.....Not that I am bashing them, far from it. I just believe it seems a bit overpriced for what you get.


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## chinacats (May 30, 2012)

cwrightthruya said:


> Even though the profile seems more in line with what I like to use, I am not sure I could bring myself to pay $400 for a single shun.....Not that I am bashing them, far from it. I just believe it seems a bit overpriced for what you get.



No doubt...lot of nicer knives for the same $...and people (mainly people around here) that I would rather give my $ to than Shun/WS...

Cheers


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## Justin0505 (May 30, 2012)

cwrightthruya said:


> Even though the profile seems more in line with what I like to use, I am not sure I could bring myself to pay $400 for a single shun.....Not that I am bashing them, far from it. I just believe it seems a bit overpriced for what you get.



Well, a san-mai blade with pattern-welded cladding, sg2 (PM) core, and integral bolster is never going to be cheap, no matter who makes it. The "premium" level suns are not made from cheap materials and IME they are constructed and finished very well.

However... again, as to the point of the post, I'm not trying to discuss the value of Shun... we all know that they are pricey.... there are other options... yada yada, its been beat to death. What I thought was more interesting was that it appeared that they where trying to make something different than the typical big-bellied "CTS" model (as Michael calls it). 

Do you think that this is because they are paying attention to the knuts? Or because the general population is starting to become more educated and develop better technique? It still seems that they feel like they need to add on "features" like the speed holes and heavy butt cap to sell it to Americans (which, I'm sure is more the fault of the market than the mfg), but I was wondering / hoping that we are starting to see a mainstream shift (or at least more options) in profiles.


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## mhlee (May 30, 2012)

I'm just speculating here, but, I think the fact that Henckels, Shun, and to a lesser extent, Wustof, have started making knives with profiles closer to Japanese and professional knives reflects the public's interest in these type of knives from what the public has seen on TV, rather than what we (the knuts) want or know is good. 

As I recall, the earlier designs from Henckels, such as the first Miyabi knives, were not well received at all. Rather than looking at great examples of Japanese wa knives, they made a kind of bastard child of German and Japanese design and a pretty big fail. 

Also, I think Shun's success has a lot to do with marketing and initial discounts (I remeber being able to buy something ridiculous like an 8 piece set with block for about $400 or something around that price about 6 years ago). Also, I remember sales people pushing the sharpening service. They're now an established "high-end" name. Recall that Kasumi came out at about the same time and they certainly didn't get the market penetration that Shun did; I personally thought the Kasumi knives were nicer but never used either until later. 

As for the continued creation of new lines of knives by Shun, I think that is also a marketing tool. From what I gather (just remembering off the top of my head), the materials used by Shun don't vary much, e.g., VG-10, SG-2. So, the new lines have superficial changes - new profile, more bling, different handle. If they're actually changing the grind, thickness, taper, etc., that may reflect a change in philosophy to make better performing knives, rather than better looking knives, which has been my general opinion about the company.


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## cwrightthruya (May 30, 2012)

Speculating as well...I really do not think they are paying attention to knife knuts. After all, we are a very small part of their customer base. They are more concerned with grabbing those people who are tired of the traditional German knives, and wanting to move up to a higher performance blade. As was said earlier, their continuous new lines of knives have mostly superficial changes, but are the same overall design. I have to admit, this new line does seem a little different, in that it has more of a Japanese feel, but that could be something as simple as a new design leader on the team. 
It really comes down to simple economics, and good business practices. They are most likely not concerned with making higher performing knives because the majority of their current customer base believes they are already the best performing knives made. Why spend the money in R&D to completely reinvent something that is still in its stride when superficial changes are easy (Read Cheap).


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## bikehunter (May 30, 2012)

Unfortunately in the constant quest to come up with something new, exciting and eye catching for the BB&B crowd (whether it works better or not), it's all too easy to come up with something like this:

http://ab.wsimgs.com/wsimgs/ab/images/dp/wcm/201215/0161/img70b.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ofZoWQstoxU/Tbol-bvmeXI/AAAAAAAAAIk/e_JI2XqBolY/s1600/DSC_0175.JPG


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## Justin0505 (May 31, 2012)

bikehunter said:


> Unfortunately in the constant quest to come up with something new, exciting and eye catching for the BB&B crowd (whether it works better or not), it's all too easy to come up with something like this:
> 
> http://ab.wsimgs.com/wsimgs/ab/images/dp/wcm/201215/0161/img70b.jpg
> 
> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ofZoWQstoxU/Tbol-bvmeXI/AAAAAAAAAIk/e_JI2XqBolY/s1600/DSC_0175.JPG



Heh... I saw that thing too... every time I see, it I think that it looks like some kind of metal eating monster took bites out of the edge of a regular slicer and I say "nom nom nom" to myself and laugh. 

Also, Michael and Cwright: you both sound so cynical... but is it still cynicism if it's true? 
I am well aware that a company like Shun would never produce a knife just in hopes that the lunatic fringe would buy it, because even if all the regular on both KKF and ITK bought one, I doubt that it would even pay for the industrial engineering and tooling costs associated with a new line. 

However, I know that some companies (often in the automotive and gaming industries) do employ people who's job is just to monitor and sometimes interact with people in forums and other social media because marketing-savy companies are often aware that the extreme fringe does have a ripple effect on the rest of the market and can play a useful part in generating buzz and indirect sales.


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## cwrightthruya (May 31, 2012)

Not cynical at all. Sorry, I did not mean to come across that way. I actually own a few (3) shun's, and they are not bad knives. My initial comment about how expensive they were was simply based on sticker shock, as I have not even looked at that brand of knives in about 3 years. When I purchased my 3, all of them together costs less than that single chefs knife, so it was to say the least, surprising. My other comment stems from a background in business management (although that is not my profession). It is seriously bad business practice to waste resources reinventing the wheel before it's time. It is better to put money into marketing to your target audience, which you have to admit is incredibly fickle this day and age, than to undergo the cost of design shifts. 

I think the analogy of the automotive and gaming industry is slightly skewed. The reason being that those are two very specific industries, where there is still fierce, and even placed, competition driving the market. Thus manufacturers need to do something more than just market, giving us the next gaming consoles. 

A better analogy might be to liken shun to Microsoft (and lately, Apple). I know someone will disagree with this, but.....Microsoft's operating systems have undergone very few changes under the hood in quite some years. The first really good innovation was in windows XP where they moved completely away from a dos based system. Since that time, they have done very little to the basic structure of their operating systems (although they would have you believe otherwise), very similar to Shun. They have instead spent their time making GUI tweaks that have you believe they have completely invented the wheel. Shun is at the top in its niche market, where their customer base is a group of people who are just beginning to expand their knowledge and only have German knives to compare against. Their competition from other companies like Global, which apparently has not changed their designs in quite some time, is minimal at best. 

So no malice or cynicism intended toward Shun...Just the observation that they are most likely happy to be at the top, with little to no competition.
With that being said, I do find it interesting that it seems they are attempting to produce a knife with a more traditional profile, maybe it has to do with changes in culinary school??? I only say this because all the chefs where I work use Shun exclusively.

Regards,
Chris


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## mhlee (May 31, 2012)

Likewise. To be quite honest, I am impressed that Shun has really established itself in the US. I think they've also helped launch more than a few people to become interested in better knives by becoming the "new standard." They certainly got me to look at even better knives, although I've never purchased a Shun.

Their ability to penetrate the market is a success story. But I will say that I highly doubt they are watching forums such as this one. If anything, they're getting feedback from places like WS and SLT - consumers there will spend more for knives than the average professional and are a much larger consumer group. I would also say it's pretty clear that looks (rather than actual cutting performance) is driving development. If the performance were good, we would have read that here - the Zwilling Kramer was bought by several forum members. But, I would guess that because we don't read about Shun here, most forum members have given up on their knives. And, based on the numerous threads we've had in the past about profile v. geometry, I think most members here wont buy a Shun just because the profile is new, or even if the handle design is new.


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## ams (Jun 1, 2012)

I am far from someone you would call a "knut" but I will say I do work in a high end kitchen and the number of Shuns outnumber everything else 2:1.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jun 1, 2012)

I was in a Williams-Sonoma this afternoon and had a chance to handle a Shun Fuji. The meiji derived handle felt very good, but then, I'm right handed. I wasn't able to cut anything, but I have to admit I wouldn't mind having one, if only the price was a little lower. For not much more, you could have a Marko custom or one of Dave's gyutos.


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## Tristan (Jun 2, 2012)

Shuns just seem odd in my hand. For the price, I would just go with customs and or true blue japanese blades. Customs to support the community and to be a little spendy, japanese for unbeatable quality/price utility.

Well, unbeatable is relative. but yeah.


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## bkdc (Jul 13, 2012)

No Shun-bashing here. I own two Fuji's and for the superlative fit and finish, the price is not bad at all. I was able to buy an 8 1/2" chefs on eBay with a 2mm chip on the tip (an easy repair) for half price from the normal W&S selling price. I bought another brand new carving knife (sujihiki) also at half price. They are good performers and for the price I paid, I have absolutely no complaints.

For shorter cutting sessions, the weight is a big plus. For longer sessions, I still prefer Takeda -- my gold standard for how a gyuto should behave.

The profile is so much better than on the CTS Shuns. Balance is slightly forward -- very well done.


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## Gator (Jul 13, 2012)

cwrightthruya said:


> ...
> A better analogy might be to liken shun to Microsoft (and lately, Apple). I know someone will disagree with this, but.....Microsoft's operating systems have undergone very few changes under the hood in quite some years. The first really good innovation was in windows XP where they moved completely away from a dos based system. Since that time, they have done very little to the basic structure of their operating systems (although they would have you believe otherwise), ...


I suppose this will be OT, but without being a hardcore reverse engineer, you can't really make a statement like that. For one, MS moved away from DOS a lot earlier than Win XP, it was Win 95, and NT was there already - 1995. Later those two merged into XP - 2001. What's under the hood in Windows is very complicated, and does go under significant changes and upgrades from release to release, not always successful either. Vista anyone? UI tweaks alone wouldn't cause it to suck so bad  And Win 7 wouldn't be so much better performer just on UI tweaks. Most of the users see UI tweaks, but it's not that simple to tell that new release of your OS has new thread scheduler, or improved task switching algorithm, and those are the most complicated and time consuming things to develop.
Shun is no MS by any means, they do not have neither market share, nor influence, Wusthof/Henckels may be. Not all of their designs are success, but they do try to innovate and mix things up a bit.


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## bkdc (Jul 13, 2012)

Just wanted to comment that the new Shun Hiro is also not a bad knife. There are some finishing irregularities on the 'tsuchime', but I'm puzzled because by the appearance of the cladding. The boundary between the tsuchime/damascus jigane and the hagane is not a flat smooth grind. Instead, it appears as if a patterened tsuchime/damascus tsuchime was 'stuck on' on top of an already ground hagane. The boundary where the jigane meets the hagane has this raised 'stuck on' appearance as if the jigane wasn't present during the entire forging and grinding process (as if the tsuchime/damascus layer never underwent grinding/honing) but was, rather, applied at the end.

I don't know how this works technically or how it affects the steel. Just an observation.

The Hiro is definitely THIN! I recall it being thinner across the entire blade than other Shuns. Unfortunately, it's another CTS profile.


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## dmccurtis (Jul 13, 2012)

I think that's probably a result of the core steel etching deeper than the cladding.


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## EdipisReks (Jul 13, 2012)

dmccurtis said:


> I think that's probably a result of the core steel etching deeper than the cladding.



yep. when i've etched clad knives i've often times gotten that effect.


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## richard (Nov 16, 2015)

Found this old thread, thought I'd mention an update for any subscribed/interested that the 8.5" Shun Fuji chef knife is currently on sale for $250 at Williams Sonoma.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 16, 2015)

Shun's have a pretty big profit margin. The culinary student's here get a good discount on them. Popular one is the Shun 8" Blue steel stainless clad Kiritsuke knives with a black wooden saya. 130.00. Sharpened up a few of these already.


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## marc4pt0 (Nov 16, 2015)

I liked mine, just a little too short lengthwise though. I'd definitely consider the 10". But for $250, that's a pretty decent buy.


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## Lefty (Nov 16, 2015)

Wow. $130? I'm in! 

They really are a lot better than we pretend.


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## richard (Nov 18, 2015)

marc4pt0 said:


> But for $250, that's a pretty decent buy.



Even better deal was a Shun Hiro 8" for $179. Even now it's still on sale $199. Too bad it's the typical German chef knife profile on that one :viking:



Lefty said:


> Wow. $130? I'm in!
> 
> They really are a lot better than we pretend.



Haha...truer words have never been spoken. We sure like to unfairly bash Shun around here.


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## Soccerman (Nov 19, 2015)

It's not only the profile, Fuji has the biggest knife height for Shun, 60mm for 8'' knife, it's so comfortable to use a tall knife. 
The handle design on shun is much better as well.

You can find some similar knives like Hiro from many Japanese knife brands in Seki city.


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## NathanielA (Mar 3, 2016)

I just ran across this thread/discussion re Shun Knives... and are they worth the price?... Well here's my $.02:

There are a number of "good/great" knives, aka Shun, Global, etc. Some of it just preference, i.e. the Global all metal knives and Shun with their great wooden handles. First, here's one way to get some feel. I have purchased most of my knives from "Tom" who used to, and may still, work at the Sur La Table in Carlsbad, CA. He used to work in the surgical steel body implant medical field and knows metallurgy 101-something a lot higher. I hope he still works there, nice guy and very knowledgeable. He used to keep several raw potatoes near a cutting board. As raw taters tend to "stick" somewhat at blades, and they have a lot of moisture in them, yet raw they are reasonably dense, they are somewhat of a test of a knife. At the time I was looking at the top Shun knives as well as Global. While the differences between the top blades were somewhat subtle, you could tell the difference between the carbon steel Shun top of the line and the SG2/layered stainless and the Global all metal. While the carbon steel knife, being thinner, tended to "glide" a little more effortlessly through the raw potato, the thicker SG2/layered knife was fairly close and the heavier knife seemed to have a feel that I personally liked. That, and also the fact that carbon knives require more care not to stain, etc. I chose the heavier Shun. At this time I have about 7 or so Shun knives and one Global boning knife. Instead of buying 4 or more knives of lesser quality I urge one to start with one, if that's your budget, top knife that you like. Not only will it outlast you, if properly cared for, (though I'm not sure that's particularly compelling), but you will most likely enjoy it more than several average good quality knives. Then, when money allows, add a knife, one at a time, carefully choosing one that passes your own raw potato test until you have the diverse collection that serves your purposes. Also, keep them freshly washed and dried after using, get a good steel to keep the edge straight, and get a good stone to use sparingly then the steel isn't enough. If you can find it online, look up Ken Kramer's video on how to sharpen your knife, when necessary, which with a high Rockwell hardness, combined with home use, shouldn't be very often. Well, I guess I used more than my $.02, but I hope all this may help.


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## daveb (Mar 4, 2016)

Some good points above. Well, except for the parts about Shun and Global. And the steel. :cool2:

In all seriousness, welcome to the forum.


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