# Charcuterie



## JohnnyChance

I always enjoy a nice charcuterie plate when I go out for dinner and at my current job, I get to contribute to ours. We used to have a pretty standard and simple rotation of items, but I have a pretty long leash for interesting side projects so I have been trying to up our charcuterie game. I have a very small walkin, so I don't have room for 2 giant cambros filled with hams packed in salt or pigs heads and trotters in brine (cough, Tkern, cough). But I do have a humidity and temperature controlled wine/storage room that I can hang stuff in. Here is some stuff I have working right now.

Cleaning up some Moulard/Magret duck breast for prosciutto. Spicy White Devin also pictured.






The duck breast packed in salt, pink salt, garlic, juniper berries, thyme, and peppercorns for a day or two.





After about 36 hours in the cure, rinsed.





And wrapped in cheesecloth, ready to be dried.





Some sliced duck breast prosciutto (from a different batch, this one is Pekin, the Magret version is bigger and tastier).





Guanciale (cured Pork Jowl) in the cure after about 4 days. Couple more days and then it goes to hang and dry.





Bresaola (air dried beef) after curing for two weeks, rinsed of cure, ready to dry.





Two batches of duck prosciutto and the bresaola hanging in our store room. When we get audited, our fat soaked paperwork will make for a nice snack.





Some of the bresaola after aging/drying for week(ish) and sliced with my Martell 300mm suji.






So...what do you guys have hanging in your store rooms? What's on your charcuterie platters or in your recipe notebooks? Please share, I am always looking for new things to try and add to our rotation.


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## EdipisReks

ooooh, i've been meaning to do some curing at home. could you please post full recipes for these delicious looking items?


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## ajhuff

Insanely envious.


-AJ


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## Eamon Burke

This post did it. You don't have a bunch of fancy tools and converted fridges and you still get delicious meats.

I'm making some.


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## bikehunter

Charcuterie...the King of Food. Your ingredients are mind blowing. Let me know when it's ready and I'll send my address. ;-)


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## stereo.pete

Johnny,

Everything looks fantastic, thanks for sharing your pictures. Seems like you are doing some really cool things at your restaurant, especially maximizing the functionality of your wine cooler.


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## SpikeC

And that 300 sugi is aging really nicely as well!


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## Duckfat

Can I get a side of that Spicy White Devin to go?

Looks fantastic! Do you have a copy of Charcuterie by Ruhlman? His follow up book is supposed to be released this summer.

Dave

http://ruhlman.com/2011/07/salumi-update/


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## JohnnyChance

Yes I do have Ruhlman's Charcuterie. Two copies actually, one at work and one at home. Pretty much all of the charcuterie items I make are either recipes from that book, variations on his recipes, or the book is at least used as a reference when attempting my own recipe. Looking forward to the follow up Salumi.


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## tkern

Check out Paul Bertolli's books. I prefer them to Ruhlman. Everything looks great; haven't tried making guanciale yet but I do enjoy eating it.


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## JohnnyChance

They have been on my "to buy" list. This is my first try at guanciale, should be done in a week or two, hopefully they are pretty good. How did your cochon 555 competition go?


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## tkern

Went alright. Didn't win, but put out some pigtastic food that a lot of people enjoyed. Scott from Source restaurant took it. Had dinner at his restaurant on Saturday. He puts out some good stuff.


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## knyfeknerd

Send out some of that paperwork to us, I'll bet it's delicious as well. Ummmm........fat soaked invoices......ahhhhhhhhhhh................


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## tkern

some friends wanted to say hello


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## Jim

Awesome thread!


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## JohnnyChance

Awesome. What are you plans for those? Cut some cheeks off and get some guanciale workin.

We are doing our annual "Hops n Hogs" dinner in late June. Usually we do a few suckling pigs on a spit or grill and then have sides and pulled pork from the pigs served family style. This year we are doing it on a day the restaurant is closed, so we don't have to worry about service as well, gives us a little more freedom. More courses, main entrees will be partially plated (each person gets a plate with seared belly, pulled pork, maybe sausage) with family style sides. Oyster reception on the patio, salad course, amuse/soup course, then entree and dessert. We will also be doing some "Optional Offal" during the amuse course. Hopefully we get some people to try and to egg other people on to try as well. Any suggestions? Was thinking about headcheese or pigs head torchon, maybe some trotters, fried ears and/or skin, etc.


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## JohnnyChance

Also, my bresaola came out _wicked _salty. Can't serve it as is, instead we are going to microplane it over some pasta and basically use it as beef-salt. I cured it for 2 weeks, maybe a shorter cure or a bigger diameter piece next time. Or both.


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## Deckhand

Inspiring!


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## tkern

That sounds like a great time. I'd love to have a day to do that. The bresaola over the salad is a delicious idea.

Those piggies are being turned into head cheese. I'm going to get some cheeks in that are bigger for the guanciale. Ever try a zampone? Gently peel the skin back on a trotter down to the knuckle like a tube sock then saw off the bone. Make some sausage out of other parts and stuff into the pig sock. Sew it closed and wrap in foil then poach. Slice like a sausage. Looks awesome on a plate.


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## Eamon Burke

OK I got out On Food and Cooking, and did some Googling about Charcuterie today. I got so damn hungry I had to stop. I seriously drowning in saliva just thinking about it. 

Any suggestions for starter stuff? Preferably cheap, few tools, not as likely to kill my family and me. It would help if I didn't have to wait 8 months to get it, too.


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## ajhuff

Eamon, I would suggest bacon or corned beef. Bratwurst are pretty easy too if you have a stuffer.

-AJ


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## tkern

Make some Tasso. Get a pork shoulder. Cut into 1" strips. Coat in the tasso spice of your choosing. Let hang out and be groovy for 4 hrs then smoke. I second the bacon suggestion too. Maybe take a stab at rillettes?


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## Deckhand

I have been wanting to make Corned beef for a while for Reuben's. It's on my short list. Not too sure about the saltpeter. Is there a good way to make it without that. Or am I over thinking this. Do you use saltpeter in yours?


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## tkern

Nope. peppercorns, coriander, mustard seed for spices. brined in water, brown sugar, instacure #1 and salt for a month. Then removed, rinsed off, simmered until corned beef


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## Deckhand

tkern said:


> Nope. peppercorns, coriander, mustard seed for spices. brined in water, brown sugar, instacure #1 and salt for a month. Then removed, rinsed off, simmered until corned beef



Thank you! Thank you! I will use your method.. Greatly appreciated!


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## Eamon Burke

Saltpeter is just old-school, roundabout instacure.


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## JohnnyChance

Duck prosciutto and bacon are super easy. So is cured salmon. Chicken liver mousse is also cheap and easy.


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## Eamon Burke

sounds like bacon is a good place to start. Curing salmon sounds like a good way to keep my wife happy!


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## ajhuff

Deckhand said:


> I have been wanting to make Corned beef for a while for Reuben's. It's on my short list. Not too sure about the saltpeter. Is there a good way to make it without that. Or am I over thinking this. Do you use saltpeter in yours?



I made it in school and we did not use saltpeter or instacure. I was told that as long as we were using the product quickly (in our case devouring) it wasn't necessary. For long shelf, then maybe you'd want to use it. Same with the bacon. We did not do any of the long dry aged products were it is probably more important to prevent bacteria growth. Just guessing on that. I know a place in Marietta that uses no added chemicals.

-AJ


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## Deckhand

ajhuff said:


> I made it in school and we did not use saltpeter or instacure. I was told that as long as we were using the product quickly (in our case devouring) it wasn't necessary. For long shelf, then maybe you'd want to use it. Same with the bacon. We did not do any of the long dry aged products were it is probably more important to prevent bacteria growth. Just guessing on that. I know a place in Marietta that uses no added chemicals.
> 
> -AJ


Thanks for the comments. Sure mine wouldn't sit around long.:biggrin:


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## JohnnyChance

Pink salt is worth adding to recipes like corned beef and bacon simply for the fact it helps keep the meat pinkish/reddish and not drab gray.

Salmon is super simple; 2 to 1 ratio of kosher salt to sugar plus whatever herbs, spices, etc you prefer. At work we do citrus (zest and juice of 2 each lemon, lime and orange for 1 side of salmon) and coriander. But whatever will work: dill, garlic, pepper, etc. Make enough cure to completely surround your piece of skinned salmon. A container slightly larger than the fish is best so you don't need too much cure to keep the salmon covered in cure at all time. A large ziploc also works. Leave it like that for 24-48 hours, depending on how thick your salmon is and how "rare" you like it. Rinse, pat dry, slice thin, enjoy.


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## tkern

Pink salt (instacure #1) helps with color but it does a lot with short term curing (2-4weeks). Long term curing, 4-whatever weeks, instacure #2 works great. Sodium nitrite (not nitrate) is the only thing that some use that doesn't really do a lot with flavor but more with color. It does do some protection against the bad bacteria but not enough (for me) to balance out the random cancer causing factor.


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## Deckhand

Thank you again for all the helpful comments.


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## DWells

This is a great website. Quite old-school, but a lot of good science here too.

From http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing:

Cure #1 (also known as Instacure #1, Prague Powder #1 or Pink Cure #1)
For any aspiring sausage maker it is a necessity to understand and know how to apply Cure #1 and Cure #2, as those two cures are used worldwide though under different names and with different proportions of nitrates and salt. Cure #1 is a mixture of 1 oz of sodium nitrite (6.25%) to 1 lb of salt. It must be used to cure all meats that will require smoking at low temperatures. It may be used to cure meats for fresh sausages (optional).

Cure #2 (also known as Instacure #2, Prague Powder #2 or Pink Cure #2)
Cure #2 is a mixture of 1 oz of sodium nitrite (6.25%) along with 0.64 oz of sodium Nitrate (4%) to 1 lb of salt. It can be compared to the time-releasing capsules used for treating colds. It must be used with any products that do not require cooking, smoking or refrigeration and is mainly used for products that will be air cured for a long time like country ham, salami, pepperoni, and other dry sausages. Both Cure #1 and Cure #2 contain a small amount of FDA approved red coloring agent that gives them a slight pink color thus eliminating any possible confusion with common salt and that is why they are sometimes called pink curing salts. Cure #1 is not interchangeable with Cure #2 and vice versa. 

Basically, it depends on your curing temperature (under 34* or over), and the length of time you intend to cure.

And there hasn't been conclusive research on the link of either to cancer. There was a study done with lab rats in the 80s where they fed them the sodium nitrite and nitrate equivalents of 100lbs of bacon a day, and what do you know, they got cancer. That said, industrial producers of cured meats over-utilize nitrates/nitrites and phosphates (which allow the meat to open its cell structure to take on more water) in an attempt for higher turnaround. So I'm not a big fan of industrially cured items.





tkern said:


> Pink salt (instacure #1) helps with color but it does a lot with short term curing (2-4weeks). Long term curing, 4-whatever weeks, instacure #2 works great. Sodium nitrite (not nitrate) is the only thing that some use that doesn't really do a lot with flavor but more with color. It does do some protection against the bad bacteria but not enough (for me) to balance out the random cancer causing factor.


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## DWells

Didn't want any of that to come across as combative at all. Have fun curing!

Davis


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## Deckhand

DWells said:


> Didn't want any of that to come across as combative at all. Have fun curing!
> 
> Davis



Welcome to the forum.
Thanks for the link. Always open to learning more.


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## DWells

Thanks for the welcome, glad to be here. I've been lurking for a few months, but have only posted a few times. 

As for my credentials, I have been working in kitchens for 8 years (all kinds, but recently fine dining, farm-to-table). I recently apprenticed for 9 months at the butcher's shop previously mentioned in Marietta Ga. They do local, sustainably raised, whole-animal butchery, and selling fresh cuts, fresh, smoked, poached, and dry-cured sausages, as well as just about anything else under the sun.


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## Deckhand

DWells said:


> Thanks for the welcome, glad to be here. I've been lurking for a few months, but have only posted a few times.
> 
> As for my credentials, I have been working in kitchens for 8 years (all kinds, but recently fine dining, farm-to-table). I recently apprenticed for 9 months at the butcher's shop previously mentioned in Marietta Ga. They do local, sustainably raised, whole-animal butchery, and selling fresh cuts, fresh, smoked, poached, and dry-cured sausages, as well as just about anything else under the sun.



Good stuff. Wish I lived closer I would stop by the butchery. This is a nice place. Lots of great people and info.


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## markenki

This is a great thread. I borrowed Ruhlmann and Polcyn's book Charcuterie from the library and will try doing this (pancetta? bacon?) for the first time in a week or two. Wish me luck!


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## apicius9

DWells said:


> Thanks for the welcome, glad to be here. I've been lurking for a few months, but have only posted a few times.
> 
> As for my credentials, I have been working in kitchens for 8 years (all kinds, but recently fine dining, farm-to-table). I recently apprenticed for 9 months at the butcher's shop previously mentioned in Marietta Ga. They do local, sustainably raised, whole-animal butchery, and selling fresh cuts, fresh, smoked, poached, and dry-cured sausages, as well as just about anything else under the sun.



Welcome! Sounds like every butcher shop I grew up with in Germany. Ahh, the good times.... Even in the land of sausages, most of those butchers have been replaced by supermarkets selling industrial crap. In my hometown is a farmers market that also has a few butchers selling products, 4 carts next to each other. In front of one of them there is always a line. That's a young butcher who follows old local traditions. I once asked him what he does to his ham so that it tastes better than any other ham I could buy. His answer: "Nothing, absolutely nothing...". But sometimes he knows the names of the pigs before he slaughters them. 

Stefan


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## brainsausage

Sodium nitrate is broken town into sodium nitrite(by beneficial bacteria), which in turn is broken down into nitric oxide, which if exposed to high heat( like its burnt...) can produce nitrosamines, which are thought to be cancerous. There are various means to avoid this(phosphates, citric acid), but as long as you don't burn your homemade bacon- you're all good. Eating high amounts of nitrates is actually poisonous. Nitrites/nitrates are beneficial in the sense that they stop botulism dead(literally), aid color retention, and add a singular flavor. Botulism is very scary stuff. 
I spend most of my time curing and smoking meats at my restaurant, and I've taught the waitstaff this little tidbit when a customer complains that our charcuterie plate contains 'nitrates'(it doesn't actually as they've all been trickled down to nitric oxide, but whatever)- they're is more naturally occurring nitrates in an average bag of spinach, then there is in 20 pounds of sausage. Can you cure without? Yes. Should you? In my opinion no. There are many safety hurdles you have to build against foodborne pathogens when curing meat and making fermented sausages( hard salami and the like )- judicious use of salt, proper use of nitrates, encouraging beneficial bacteria(as they will compete, and ofttimes kill dangerous bacteria), lowering the Ph of the product, and last and most important- lowering the water content of the product-as in drying it. Water aids life, remove it and you can hold a protein almost indefinitely. It might not be that tasty, so finding a nice balance of all the above factors can be a little tricky, but well worth the effort.


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## brainsausage

JohnnyChance said:


> Also, my bresaola came out _wicked _salty. Can't serve it as is, instead we are going to microplane it over some pasta and basically use it as beef-salt. I cured it for 2 weeks, maybe a shorter cure or a bigger diameter piece next time. Or both.



Are you measuring your salt at a set ratio? I usually do between 2.8-3% by weight of the protein and get favorable results. It's not really safe to go below 2%. At least that's what the books that the food scientists say anyways


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## DWells

brainsausage said:


> Sodium nitrate is broken town into sodium nitrite(by beneficial bacteria), which in turn is broken down into nitric oxide, which if exposed to high heat( like its burnt...) can produce nitrosamines, which are thought to be cancerous. There are various means to avoid this(phosphates, citric acid), but as long as you don't burn your homemade bacon- you're all good. Eating high amounts of nitrates is actually poisonous. Nitrites/nitrates are beneficial in the sense that they stop botulism dead(literally), aid color retention, and add a singular flavor. Botulism is very scary stuff.
> I spend most of my time curing and smoking meats at my restaurant, and I've taught the waitstaff this little tidbit when a customer complains that our charcuterie plate contains 'nitrates'(it doesn't actually as they've all been trickled down to nitric oxide, but whatever)- they're is more naturally occurring nitrates in an average bag of spinach, then there is in 20 pounds of sausage. Can you cure without? Yes. Should you? In my opinion no. There are many safety hurdles you have to build against foodborne pathogens when curing meat and making fermented sausages( hard salami and the like )- judicious use of salt, proper use of nitrates, encouraging beneficial bacteria(as they will compete, and ofttimes kill dangerous bacteria), lowering the Ph of the product, and last and most important- lowering the water content of the product-as in drying it. Water aids life, remove it and you can hold a protein almost indefinitely. It might not be that tasty, so finding a nice balance of all the above factors can be a little tricky, but well worth the effort.



+1. Very well said. I've had a few "uncured" products that were actually decent, but usually they are just pale substitutions for the real thing. Doing it right without specifically adding nitrites/nitrates via celery/asparagus juice or relying on naturally occurring nitrates in sea salt (very, very tricky) is hugely time intensive. Also, avoiding a green product from all the naturally sourced nitrates can give people fits.


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## Mucho Bocho

Absolutely could not agree more. Also understand that Rhulman's book is a charcutterie primer. I have it to and it turned me on to this world of aged meats. For anyone that wants to delve into cured sausages, large cut aged meats I have found Rytek Kutas good reference but my absolute standard is marvin Marinanski's book on Quality home meats http://www.amazon.com/dp/0982426739/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


For recipes that are even better than the books see Len Poli's world

http://lpoli.50webs.com/Sausage recipes.htm

As i've posted before, its a fun hobby


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## brainsausage

Mucho Bocho said:


> Absolutely could not agree more. Also understand that Rhulman's book is a charcutterie primer. I have it to and it turned me on to this world of aged meats. For anyone that wants to delve into cured sausages, large cut aged meats I have found Rytek Kutas good reference but my absolute standard is marvin Marinanski's book on Quality home meats http://www.amazon.com/dp/0982426739/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> 
> For recipes that are even better than the books see Len Poli's world
> 
> http://lpoli.50webs.com/Sausage recipes.htm
> 
> As i've posted before, its a fun hobby



Nice looking meat Mucho! At some point this weekend I'll try and get some pics up of my drying room. It's pretty full of product right now, looks/smells great


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## brainsausage

DWells said:


> +1. Very well said. I've had a few "uncured" products that were actually decent, but usually they are just pale substitutions for the real thing. Doing it right without specifically adding nitrites/nitrates via celery/asparagus juice or relying on naturally occurring nitrates in sea salt (very, very tricky) is hugely time intensive. Also, avoiding a green product from all the naturally sourced nitrates can give people fits.



It's just another case of people failing to do their homework, and relying on rumors instead... That and the fact that everything is cancer causing in the state of California. I don't know how anyone is still alive out there


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## DWells

Even though I live on east coast, my sister sent me some coppa from Santa Cruz. It was very well done, with the traditional nitrate/nitrite blend. I'll be honest, a few years ago, I tried to buy only un-cured bacon and ham. I was mainly hoping that the pork would be pasture-raised in some way, as those two things usually went hand in hand. Now I rarely buy many processed meats that I don't have a direct relationship with whoever made them (if I am not making them myself), and the farmer who raised the pork.


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## brainsausage

DWells said:


> Even though I live on east coast, my sister sent me some coppa from Santa Cruz. It was very well done, with the traditional nitrate/nitrite blend. I'll be honest, a few years ago, I tried to buy only un-cured bacon and ham. I was mainly hoping that the pork would be pasture-raised in some way, as those two things usually went hand in hand. Now I rarely buy many processed meats that I don't have a direct relationship with whoever made them (if I am not making them myself), and the farmer who raised the pork.


 I was just poking fun at the fact that California seems to be the first to villainize food, instead of teaching moderation. I actually plan to move out there at some point in the next few years. I've spent 30+ years in Maine, and the winters are starting to wear on me...


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## Deckhand

brainsausage said:


> I was just poking fun at the fact that California seems to be the first to villainize food, instead of teaching moderation. I actually plan to move out there at some point in the next few years. I've spent 30+ years in Maine, and the winters are starting to wear on me...



Mayor Bloomberg in NY is banning any sugary drink over 16 o.z. It could be worse here in California. Maine is nice spent a summer striped bass fishing at old orchard beach, went to LL Bean, Rhode island jazz festival, i thought about moving there but like you said doubt I would enjoy a winter there.


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## DWells

brainsausage said:


> I was just poking fun at the fact that California seems to be the first to villainize food, instead of teaching moderation. I actually plan to move out there at some point in the next few years. I've spent 30+ years in Maine, and the winters are starting to wear on me...



Agreed. The villainization of food is a major pet peeve of mine (most of the time, there are some genuinely bad-actors out there). It excuses a complete ignorance of how we should be eating (moderately).

I brought up the coppa to show that there seem to be enough sane people there to support such a shop. My sister tells me it was made by a salchicherro who owns a small shop, using local meats and traditional methods.


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## brainsausage

DWells said:


> Agreed. The villainization of food is a major pet peeve of mine (most of the time, there are some genuinely bad-actors out there). It excuses a complete ignorance of how we should be eating (moderately).
> 
> I brought up the coppa to show that there seem to be enough sane people there to support such a shop. My sister tells me it was made by a salchicherro who owns a small shop, using local meats and traditional methods.



That's my endgame, to own a traditional deli that offers charcuterie and meats from mine and other local farms, and big messy sandwiches. Sandwiches that run down your arm while your eating em


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## GlassEye

brainsausage said:


> That's my endgame, to own a traditional deli that offers charcuterie and meats from mine and other local farms, and big messy sandwiches. Sandwiches that run down your arm while your eating em



If this wonderful deli of yours is in Maine, I will definitely be stopping by. I try to make it up there at least once a year.


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## Duckfat

brainsausage said:


> That's my endgame, to own a traditional deli that offers charcuterie and meats from mine and other local farms, and big messy sandwiches. Sandwiches that run down your arm while your eating em



Portland seems like a great place for a deli like that. 

Dave


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## brainsausage

GlassEye said:


> If this wonderful deli of yours is in Maine, I will definitely be stopping by. I try to make it up there at least once a year.



Stop by my current gig next time you're up here: local188.com


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## brainsausage

Duckfat said:


> Portland seems like a great place for a deli like that.
> 
> Dave



Are you from these here parts?


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## GlassEye

brainsausage said:


> Stop by my current gig next time you're up here: local188.com



I'll be sure to let you know next time I am in the area.


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## Duckfat

brainsausage said:


> Are you from these here parts?



No I'm in Mi but we have friends in Kennebunk so we've been there several times.

Dave


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## brainsausage

Duckfat said:


> No I'm in Mi but we have friends in Kennebunk so we've been there several times.
> 
> Dave



I was curious, cuz one of the best places for fries in town is a place called Duckfat...


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## GlassEye

brainsausage said:


> I was curious, cuz one of the best places for fries in town is a place called Duckfat...



I made that same association as well.


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## brainsausage

GlassEye said:


> I made that same association as well.



Have you checked out Nosh? They opened a couple years ago, and have quite possibly the best fries I've yet to stuff in my face.


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## GlassEye

brainsausage said:


> Have you checked out Nosh? They opened a couple years ago, and have quite possibly the best fries I've yet to stuff in my face.



No I haven't, I will need to so.


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## WildBoar

I got to see some of the stuff Travis is working on right now. It's a nice collection of hams and salamis. Looking forward to tasting the results.


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## brainsausage

WildBoar said:


> I got to see some of the stuff Travis is working on right now. It's a nice collection of hams and salamis. Looking forward to tasting the results.



He has a buncha capicolla hanging in my dry room actually Small world...


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## markenki

I love this thread! Inspired by it, I borrowed Ruhlmann's book from the library and made some duck prosciutto. Reading the recipe, my initial thought was "it can't be that simple". Anyway, I started it last weekend, and this evening my sons and I unwrapped one of the breasts. It was quite good! (if a bit salty). I'm hooked! Next up will be bacon, pancetta, and chorizo, once the supplies I ordered online arrive. I'll also try making some Philippine longanisa. Wish me luck!


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## tkern

brainsausage said:


> He has a buncha capicolla hanging in my dry room actually Small world...



I don't remember making those.... sleep curing?


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## brainsausage

tkern said:


> I don't remember making those.... sleep curing?



Oops, sorry I thought he was referring to one of the guys at Nosh. But you can hide your meat in my box anytime;D


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## mhlee

tkern said:


> I don't remember making those.... sleep curing?



The world would be a much better place if more people suffered from this.


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## eto

I had a chance to try JohnnyChance's Curd Duck breast at the ECG , It was so good!

His chicken liver pate was good as well. Reminded of be in back on the line and making it for the first time.


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## tkern

brainsausage said:


> Oops, sorry I thought he was referring to one of the guys at Nosh. But you can hide your meat in my box anytime;D



Yup, definitely stopping over at your place next time I'm in the northeast.


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## brainsausage

tkern said:


> Yup, definitely stopping over at your place next time I'm in the northeast.


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