# Entire state in lock-down because of a lie



## Michi (Nov 20, 2020)

Some of you may have heard about this already. We found out this morning…

The entire state of South Australia was placed under an extremely strict lock-down (even stricter than Melbourne's) two days ago due to a cluster linked to a quarantine hotel and a pizza restaurant. There was suspicion of uncontrolled community transmission and, worse, that this might be a new strain of the virus with a much shorter incubation time.

This morning, we found out that the entire state had been unnecessarily placed under lock-down because one of the infected persons had lied to contact tracers. The total cost is easily in the tens of millions of dollars, and quite possibly exceeds 100 million dollars.









The lie that locked down a state: How South Australians wound up stuck at home for no reason


South Australians on Friday moved from fear to fury, after learning they had been forced into lockdown for no valid reason. Here's how it happened.




www.abc.net.au


----------



## rickbern (Nov 20, 2020)

Wow. There’s no emoji for this one.

is it still cool enough down there that most activity is still indoors or is it sunny warm late spring?


----------



## Michi (Nov 20, 2020)

rickbern said:


> Wow. There’s no emoji for this one.
> 
> is it still cool enough down there that most activity is still indoors or is it sunny warm late spring?


It’s quite hot in Adelaide. 32–37 °C (90–99 °F) is common this time of year.


----------



## rickbern (Nov 20, 2020)

Yeah, this story has definitely broken out of kkf and crossed the equator









Covid: Pizza worker's 'lie' forced South Australia lockdown


South Australia went into lockdown because a man with Covid-19 misled health officials, police say.



www.bbc.com


----------



## SeattleBen (Nov 20, 2020)

Hell of a way to get out of a shift.


----------



## cotedupy (Nov 22, 2020)

'He would not comment "any other behaviour that may be alleged or suspected" in relation to the owner or managers of the pizza bar, except that it would be investigated.'

Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha ha.


----------



## cotedupy (Nov 22, 2020)

White pizzas all round!


----------



## gregfisk (Nov 22, 2020)

I just read this article, you guys have done a great job of containing the virus. I live in Washington state and we had 1700 cases yesterday. And we are one of the better states at keeping the numbers down. In the US we are losing 2000 people a day to the virus right now and have lost about 250,000 so far with no end in site without a vaccine. Fortunately it looks like they are on the way, although that’s months away.


----------



## JayGee (Nov 22, 2020)

Although this person clearly did the wrong thing - with horrific consequences - you have to take into consideration they are probably a precarious worker, scared they would be subject to VISA penalties / deported if they had told the truth about work. Almost all of the outbreaks in Australia have happened because of structural labour issues / casualized work forces. I think blaming one person is a little rough, when there are issues mitigating against his disclosure. I would say every international student involved in a contact tracing discussion in Australia has probably lied about their employment situation. I really appreciated that the Vic Gov was adamant about not pursuing indivuals for breaking the law based on information that came out during contact tracing.


----------



## Geigs (Nov 22, 2020)

This exactly. Casual workforce with limited power and high likelihood of illegal work means you'd lie to cops about your work situation. Understandable, but unfortunate consequences. I'm glad the lockdown was brief, having all the kids home for a few days was brutal....


----------



## cotedupy (Nov 23, 2020)

Absolutely agree with the sentiments above.

Tho I believe the operation in question may have been delivering more than just pies.

(And judging by their statement the powers at be suspect that too!)


----------



## juice (Nov 23, 2020)

JayGee said:


> I think blaming one person is a little rough


Not in this instance, not at all.


----------



## JayGee (Nov 23, 2020)

juice said:


> Not in this instance, not at all.


You might not be a communist after all.


----------



## Michi (Nov 23, 2020)

Contact tracing largely depends on people being honest. And honesty depends on not being afraid of repercussions.

By and large, I think Australian authorities have done a good job in emphasising the importance of people coming forward, volunteering information, and feeling safe in doing so, both for themselves and their contacts. We have had a few people getting a criminal conviction, but those were blatant cases of violations, where some people, knowing that they were infected, decided to break quarantine regardless. Other than that, I'm not aware of any legal repercussions.

What I find interesting is how the virus imposes a modus operandi on authorities. The habitual way of reacting to someone who does something wrong is to throw the book at them, and fine them or lock them up. But, because of the dependency on information for contact tracing, we need people to come forward and volunteer what they know, freely and completely, even if that means to not punish someone who, by many people's standards, would deserve punishment.

Lo and behold, we suddenly have a different way of dealing with dishonesty. Not because anything has fundamentally changed in outlook or ethics, but because the information is more important than it is to punish people. Australian authorities are well aware of the risk of driving the information underground, and they have been pragmatic in their approach. (For the better, in my opinion.)

I'm sure that this is neither the first nor the last case of the pandemic precipitating a change of perspective and values. Coronavirus is changing the world in more ways than one…


----------



## juice (Nov 23, 2020)

JayGee said:


> You might not be a communist after all.


Nah, just ask any American, I'm a genuine communist


----------



## daveb (Nov 23, 2020)

Lenin Juice.....


----------



## Twigg (Nov 24, 2020)

What are these balls for?


----------



## ian (Nov 24, 2020)

I'd guess that's what they're for.


----------



## WildBoar (Nov 24, 2020)

They are what was left over when the one of the kitsch makers produced the world's largest kangaroo sack coin purse.

(yeah, I bought one as a funny gift for one of my friends when I spent a few weeks in Australia a couple decades ago)


----------



## Michi (Nov 25, 2020)

Twigg said:


> What are these balls for?


That’s _art_, you ignoramus!


----------



## Michi (Nov 25, 2020)

Michi said:


> That’s _art_, you ignoramus!


_Ugly_ art.


----------



## Luftmensch (Dec 1, 2020)

rickbern said:


> is it still cool enough down there that most activity is still indoors or is it sunny warm late spring?





Michi said:


> It’s quite hot in Adelaide. 32–37 °C (90–99 °F) is common this time of year.





And unusually warm in fact:









The data is in and Australia just had its hottest November on record


The BOM confirms it after crunching last month's numbers, while it was also the country's warmest spring on record for minimum and mean temperatures.




www.abc.net.au





But then again... each year seems to break the records of the last


----------



## WildBoar (Dec 1, 2020)

oh please. If you are a grown up you should have easily made your own decisions with respect to distancing, masks, etc. And also please show me countries where schools did not close.

At some point adults need to take responsibility for their own actions.


----------



## alterwisser (Dec 1, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> At some point adults need to take responsibility for their own actions.



that is OH SO TRUE.... in theory.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of idiots in this world and their own actions don’t always end up hurting them, but others.


----------



## juice (Dec 1, 2020)

alterwisser said:


> Unfortunately, there are a lot of idiots in this world and their own actions don’t always end up hurting them, but others.


Especially when they're deliberately led in the wrong direction.


----------



## tcmx3 (Dec 1, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> At some point adults need to take responsibility for their own actions.



humans in their current form have been around for 195,000 years and we're still waiting so I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening any time soon.


----------



## alterwisser (Dec 1, 2020)

tcmx3 said:


> humans in their current form have been around for 195,000 years and we're still waiting so I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening any time soon.



who’s lying now???

Earth is only 6000 years old. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT


----------



## Nemo (Dec 1, 2020)

Let's keep the politics out of this thread thanks people.


----------



## Dull_Apex (Dec 4, 2020)

Michi said:


> Contact tracing largely depends on people being honest. And honesty depends on not being afraid of repercussions.
> 
> By and large, I think Australian authorities have done a good job in emphasising the importance of people coming forward, volunteering information, and feeling safe in doing so, both for themselves and their contacts. We have had a few people getting a criminal conviction, but those were blatant cases of violations, where some people, knowing that they were infected, decided to break quarantine regardless. Other than that, I'm not aware of any legal repercussions.
> 
> ...


Another interesting outcome has been that the penalties for ignoring the rules have been more severe for _potentially _spreading the virus compared to actually spreading it. 

Here in Melbourne we had a cluster of 4-5 houses who ignored the rules and spread the virus without penalty but also had the infamous KFC food run leading to the same number of people being caught and fined.


----------



## gregfisk (Dec 10, 2020)

I want to ask the people here from Australia a serious question and I’ll try and skirt the political side of it.

Why do you think the lockdowns worked in your country? Do you think it’s because the government was unified in its message? “assuming it was”? Was it that people just new it was the right thing to do? Was it a patriotic response or common sense? I find it hard to believe it was fear of punishment.

What I’m trying to understand is the response that so many of my fellow Americans have taken and why they think that somehow their rights are being stepped on when asked to wear a mask or stay isolated. It became very politicized here and while I don’t want to discuss that per say I’m curious if there were any issues with compliance or authority in Australia?


----------



## 4wa1l (Dec 10, 2020)

It's probably a combination of a few things. I think you're right that it wasn't a fear of punishment. It's a difficult question to discuss without getting political. Probably worth reading some Australian media to see if you can get a feel for the political environment. Might give a better perspective.

Otherwise I think we had a bit of a headstart and saw the effects overseas and so a lot of people knew how devastating it could be. When Melbourne went into hard lockdown I would guess that it was partly lucky that the virus hadn't infected a huge number of people. The worst days had ~700 infections. I think overall people understood the reasons why lockdown was being implemented even if not fully supported. While it didn't affect the general population as badly, it decimated the aged health care sector here so that surely played on peoples minds.

Of course some people protested and were caught skirting the rules but I would say they were in the minority. Not too sure though. I only read this in the news, don't live in Melbourne.

There was some talk in the media and tension between federal and state governments about whether or not it was the right way to go about things too but not discussing it here.


----------



## WildBoar (Dec 10, 2020)

it isn't really politicized in my opinion, as all adults here in the US are well aware of the situation. It is more that they use the politicians as an excuse to not do what they know they should be doing. I see that all around me.


----------



## daveb (Dec 10, 2020)

I'll go right to the edge and suggest that politicians here of both stripes don't give 2 f's about the people they represent and have used this crisis for political gamesmanship. Both sides.

Now waiting for the more sensible Matus to delete me.....


----------



## Geigs (Dec 10, 2020)

I think Australian culture in general is a lot less focused on "Me" and more focused on "Us". The USA is one of the most selfish places I know of in terms of people demanding their own rights are inviolable and consequences to fellow citizens be damned. So when asked to wear a mask we can see the upside and don't ignore mask mandates, and a lockdown is not in violatino of our god given rights to whatever imagined freedoms are being curtailed. Plus, as other have said, we never had the huge numbers the US has seen, which is perhaps one of the benefits of being an island.


----------



## JayGee (Dec 10, 2020)

Australia and the US have deeply different political cultures. The stereotype of Australian politics is that it is "pragmantic" - I'm not sure if that's true - but it might be a useful way to differentiate our politics in relation to American individualism. Some people say Australia is socialist (because it has healthcare) but that is utter nonsense. After just returning to Australia after 3 years in the US - I can say that one feeling (note subjective) I had while there was that any notion of the social - any actual social coordination - was paper thin - it felt like things could fall over at any time. This likely had to do with being in a big city - and perhaps living in a part of that city where government provided social services had been underfunded for many years (I'm not sure). But also, I think, because the US is radically more diverse than Australia - in lots of ways. Australia actually just doesn't have the amount of money flowing around that produces the various extremes that exist in the US. Australians also love rules, and there's nothing in our culture that rewards independence or ambition (called here tall poppy syndrome). Australian's also, more or less, trust politicians. We're very into maintenance of status quo - which is what was promised after a successful lock-down. There were also practical things like getting a cash payment if you had to take a test and miss work while waiting for the results - recognition that the biggest disease vector was the structural organization (i.e. casualization) of the labour market etc...


----------



## JayGee (Dec 10, 2020)

BUT the absolute main reason why the lockdown was tolerated - was because of the wage subsidy and wefare payments. While in lockdown, the vast vast majority of people earned fairly good money NOT working. So the material conditions of life were totally fine - you just shopped online and watched TV all day and probably bought fancy take-away food and new knives.


----------



## WildBoar (Dec 10, 2020)

Geigs said:


> I think Australian culture in general is a lot less focused on "Me" and more focused on "Us". The USA is one of the most selfish places I know of in terms of people demanding their own rights are inviolable and consequences to fellow citizens be damned.


Can't argue against this point, although it is a little on the strong side. One thing to keep in mind is many of us here in the US either came from, or our forefathers/ and, er, foremothers, came from countries where they had very little in the way of rights. So personal freedoms mean a lot to a large portion of the population.

And I 1000% admit the preponderance of 'Karens', and the male equivalents, that are around is unfortunate for everyone.


----------



## juice (Dec 10, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> Why do you think the lockdowns worked in your country?


Prepare for a raft of various responses 

But straight off the top, one of the main reasons it worked is because we have a working social security/unemployment system down here, (and a populace willing to incur debts now that will need to paid off in the future in order to keep a civil society running) rather than one specifically designed to prevent people in need getting money "because it serves them right for being poor." That, right there, is the biggest differentiator - the attitude and thus the implementation. Aussies, in general, lack the entire "**** YOU BUDDY, YOU'RE NOT ME" selfishness.

The federal Govt (which runs the system) stepped up really quickly (yes, I know, some people who have no idea how hard it is to coordinate a whole-of-govt-response to a complete unknown say not quickly enough) to pour a VERY large amount of money into what was effectively unemployment benefits/wage subsidies in order to keep people (i.e. citizens, those here on working visas were left out, I think somewhat unfairly, but again, we are talking a LOT of money here) at least partly employed/able to feed their families/pay rent while they couldn't work. The banks (in conjunction with the govt) also came to the party with mortgage/loan holidays and so on. The idea was to keep people in jobs/housing whenever possible, not turf them out onto the street to learn some sort of lesson (presumably to not be living through a pandemic).



gregfisk said:


> Do you think it’s because the government was unified in its message? “assuming it was”


Early on, when it really counted, they really were, or at least appeared to be, which is good enough. Later, the federal govt drifted around, but by then the states were on top of things, and (generally) had systems that were working, and the feds were thus free to say whatever they wanted for political reasons, knowing full well it would be ignored.

I'm in Victoria, where we had the really bad outbreak (relatively) and had a very tough lockdown for months, (no travel more than 5km from home, work from home if able, 8pm-5am curfew, mandatory mask-wearing outside the home, one hour outside for exercise/day, no visiting other homes, and so on), but we're now five+ weeks without a case or a death. Interstate travel was locked down but is now open again, and we have pretty free movement.

We were planning to move to the bush before this whole thing arced up, and as a result of the travel bans, and the fact that the city where I live was inside the so-called "ring of steel," we couldn't even go and look at potential properties for months. Yay for the internet, it allowed a great deal of research, so when we were released to move around we had a really good grasp on the market.



gregfisk said:


> Was it that people just new it was the right thing to do?


Despite our well-publicised criminal heritage, Aussies are generally pretty law-abiding and community-centred. (i.e. communists...)



gregfisk said:


> Was it a patriotic response or common sense?


No such thing as a patriotic response down here, mate 



gregfisk said:


> I find it hard to believe it was fear of punishment.


Nope, wasn't that, you're quite correct. "Doing the right thing by everyone," basically. Yes, we had some dickheads marching against things (and for BLM, which caused a decent amount of division in the community, given it was while people weren't meant to be getting together, let alone in large crowds), but overall not too much drama there.



gregfisk said:


> What I’m trying to understand is the response that so many of my fellow Americans have taken and why they think that somehow their rights are being stepped on when asked to wear a mask or stay isolated. It became very politicized here and while I don’t want to discuss that per say I’m curious if there were any issues with compliance or authority in Australia?


Much more community-centred rather than self-centred (see first point about proper social net).


----------



## Geigs (Dec 11, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> Can't argue against this point, although it is a little on the strong side. One thing to keep in mind is many of us here in the US either came from, or our forefathers/ and, er, foremothers, came from countries where they had very little in the way of rights. So personal freedoms mean a lot to a large portion of the population.
> 
> And I 1000% admit the preponderance of 'Karens', and the male equivalents, that are around is unfortunate for everyone.



One thing to keep in mind is that Australia was a penal colony, and most of our forefathers were incarcerated by the British, shipped to the other side of the planet in putrid boats and then locked up for years where we performed hard labour. We are, despite this, fine with being locked up/down all over again and temporarily halting our personal freedoms for the greater good. Fun fact: one of my extended relatives was the last woman hanged in Australia!


----------



## rob (Dec 11, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> I want to ask the people here from Australia a serious question and I’ll try and skirt the political side of it.
> 
> Why do you think the lockdowns worked in your country? Do you think it’s because the government was unified in its message? “assuming it was”? Was it that people just new it was the right thing to do? Was it a patriotic response or common sense? I find it hard to believe it was fear of punishment.
> 
> What I’m trying to understand is the response that so many of my fellow Americans have taken and why they think that somehow their rights are being stepped on when asked to wear a mask or stay isolated. It became very politicized here and while I don’t want to discuss that per say I’m curious if there were any issues with compliance or authority in Australia?


Good question gregfisk.

I live in Melbourne, and the lockdwons certainly worked here. We haven't had a community case for 41 days.Fingers crossed!

I feel the governments message was unified, that certainly helped, also we had consistent messaging and facts about about the virus. 
Our Premier(Govenor) and cheif health officer Brett Sutton showed real empathy and appeared daily giving updates. Financially the govenment provided billions of dollars for those in need so people felt looked after. As a nation i think most Australians tend to think of our community as an us, not just me.
I don't beleive it was about the fines or punishments. Another huge factor is our Nations leaders tend not to undermine the advice of scientists and experts in the field and instead focus on following the science and epidemiology and explain honestly their reasons for doing so. In general i had the reassuring feeling that they where looking after our health and putting Australians health and safety before the dollar! 

Of course there where some who complained and spouted Plandemic or 5g or Bill Gates something or another, though i would like to believe they where by far the minority. You know,"Empty vessel makes the most noise" and all that.


----------



## WildBoar (Dec 11, 2020)

Geigs said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that Australia was a penal colony, and most of our forefathers were incarcerated by the British, shipped to the other side of the planet in putrid boats and then locked up for years where we performed hard labour.


Of course -- you all bonded.


----------



## Michi (Dec 11, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> Why do you think the lockdowns worked in your country? Do you think it’s because the government was unified in its message? “assuming it was”?


Yes, that was definitely a big part of it. We got the same consistent message from all levels of government; local, state, and federal. The media got behind it, too so, no matter to whom or where you were listening, the message was always the same: keep your distance, wash hands, wear a mask, avoid indoor gatherings, etc. Shop owners, supermarkets, fast food outlets—you name it—got in on the act as well. Limiting number of patrons inside, painting signs for where to stand in a queue on the floor, providing free hand sanitizer, and employing staff to wipe down the handles on shopping trolleys, do crowd control, and so on.



> Was it that people just new it was the right thing to do? Was it a patriotic response or common sense?


Aussies have a long-standing tradition of sticking together and pulling on the same rope in times of crisis. So, people did it because it was the right thing to do, and because it was good for everyone.



> I find it hard to believe it was fear of punishment.


Definitely not that. We had our share of people who figured that the rules didn't apply to them and broke quarantine because it suited them. But those cases were rare and, in most cases, people got off the hook fairly cheaply. Having said that, fines were part of it. There are a few thousand people all up who were fined somewhere between 1000 and 4000 dollars for various breaches. But, in the grand scheme of things, there were remarkably few fines.



> I’m curious if there were any issues with compliance or authority in Australia


No so you would notice. We had a few small demonstrations by people who argued that their rights were being stepped on or that the virus is all a hoax. But there weren't many of them, and their protests didn't amount to much.


----------



## gregfisk (Dec 11, 2020)

I thank all of you for your thoughtful responses. I’m really appreciative of your clear and in depth explanations. I have a much better understanding of who you are as Australia’s. I only wish that we would have made the same choices. 

I spent 3 weeks in Victoria, Brighton Beach to be exact. My wife and daughter absolutely loved it there, me included. My daughter was about 10 at the time and for years after she told us she was going to move there. She hasn’t but has been back and all over the world since.

It’s so incredibly frustrating here, beyond words really. People I know and care about, family included just don’t get it. It’s so politicized here that depending on which news channel you watch will depend on whether you believe the virus is an issue. Or for some, fortunately not many, it doesn’t exist at all. You are right about people being selfish, there’s no question about that. In order to explain how bad it’s been here I’d have to get deep into the politics of it so I won’t.

Guys, thanks again for explaining and answering my questions in so much depth, it’s much appreciated.


----------



## Michi (Dec 18, 2020)

Here is an example of the Aussie spirit in action:









Concerned cafes and bars close for weekend as Northern Beaches cluster rise


Some venues on Sydney's Northern Beaches are so concerned about a growing local coronavirus cluster they are voluntarily closing this weekend to help contain the outbreak.




www.abc.net.au





Some places closed without even being told to.

Unfortunately, the Northern Beaches area is going back into a full lock-down from later today (Saturday) until at least midnight on Wednesday 









Premier puts Greater Sydney 'on notice' as lockdown announced for Northern Beaches


Sydney's Northern Beaches area is in lockdown from today to midnight on Wednesday, while NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian is considering imposing restrictions on Greater Sydney.




www.abc.net.au


----------



## juice (Dec 18, 2020)

Michi said:


> Unfortunately, the Northern Beaches area is going back into a full lock-down from later today (Saturday) until at least midnight on Wednesday


Thus giving them all time to depart for their country retreats, I suspect.


----------



## M1k3 (Dec 18, 2020)

juice said:


> Thus giving them all time to depart for their country retreats, I suspect.


Who'd want to be locked down with all the peasants?


----------



## Nemo (Dec 19, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Who'd want to be locked down with all the peasants?


Not too many peasants live in the northern beaches. It's some of the most expensive property in the country.


----------



## daveb (Dec 19, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Who'd want to be locked down with all the peasants?




Me! Me! Me!

BTW - you spelled pheasants wrong.


----------



## M1k3 (Dec 19, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Not too many peasants live in the northern beaches. It's some of the most expensive property in the country.


Perspective.


----------



## Dull_Apex (Dec 20, 2020)

For non-Aussies: this latest lock down is for 72 active cases (and counting) . 

For Sydneysiders: I would prepare yourself for this to last into February.
The bright side is that it looks like the numbers are climbing quickly because contact tracing is working so it may be easier to contain.


----------



## Nemo (Dec 20, 2020)

Dull_Apex said:


> For non-Aussies: this latest lock down is for 72 active cases (and counting) .


I would describe it as 72 KNOWN active cases.

On the upside, they are almost all linked to two closely associated clusters. 

On the worrying side, there are a few links in the transmission chain that haven't yet been accounted for.

All neighbouring states have now instituted border controls with NSW. It looks like another couple of months of lining up at border checkpoints for us border communities. Just that the border checkpoints are on the other side of the border this time.


----------



## juice (Dec 20, 2020)

Nemo said:


> All neighbouring states have now instituted border controls with NSW. It looks like another couple of months of lining up at border checkpoints for us border communities. Just that the border checkpoints are on the other side of the border this time.


Yeah, it's a shame they seem insistent on using the actual border, and not letting you have a bubble that extends either side of the border, but I guess it's going to be a PITA no matter what they do.


----------



## Michi (Dec 20, 2020)

What is worrying is that Queensland has found the virus in sewerage samples all over the place (from memory, Cairns, Townsville, Sunshine Coast, Brisbane, Gold Coast) when, a few days earlier, those locations tested negative. We'll have to wait a few more days to find out how this will shape up.

I'm pretty sure that all the people leaving Greater Sydney right now to get back to Queensland before they get trapped isn't helping matters either.

I really feel sorry for all the people who've had their holiday plans destroyed by this


----------



## Luftmensch (Dec 20, 2020)

Awww.... I missed an interesting part of this thread!



gregfisk said:


> I want to ask the people here from Australia a serious question and I’ll try and skirt the political side of it.
> 
> Why do you think the lockdowns worked in your country? Do you think it’s because the government was unified in its message? “assuming it was”? Was it that people just new it was the right thing to do? Was it a patriotic response or common sense? I find it hard to believe it was fear of punishment.
> 
> What I’m trying to understand is the response that so many of my fellow Americans have taken and why they think that somehow their rights are being stepped on when asked to wear a mask or stay isolated. It became very politicized here and while I don’t want to discuss that per say I’m curious if there were any issues with compliance or authority in Australia?



A few people have covered this well. To _me_, *THE *answer is: cultural. The fact that any two English speaking countries can easily exchange ideas, does not mean they share the same cultural attitudes. America and Australia are _very_ different. It can be hard to see things you take for granted. America has a prevalence of individualism, paranoia and violence baked into its mythology that would be absurd in an Australian context.

It is fun to joke about Australia's criminal heritage. Despite _some_ mythology being rooted in outlaws like Ned Kelly; we *do* follow rules and are very law abiding. Narratives about 'freedom' just don't exist in Australia the way they appear to exist in America. Individual 'freedoms' arent necessarily seen as inalienable rights. We culturally accept that some rules will be made to benefit the whole at the expense of a few: wear your seat-belt, put on your helmet and give me back those automatic weapons. Smoking? Fine do it but you cant do it here. And while we're at it, pay your damn taxes.

Sure, a handful of libertarians protests - but there is never a real threat of mass protest or disorder. The rest of us just get on with it and forget it was ever an issue within five years.




JayGee said:


> Some people say Australia is socialist (because it has healthcare) but that is utter nonsense. After just returning to Australia after 3 years in the US - I can say that one feeling (note subjective) I had while there was that any notion of the social - any actual social coordination - was paper thin - it felt like things could fall over at any time. This likely had to do with being in a big city - and perhaps living in a part of that city where government provided social services had been underfunded for many years (I'm not sure).



[Edit: I misread @JayGee's post. See below #57]

As someone who is moderately well travelled... I dont agree with what you are saying. Although Australia is deeply flawed in many ways, she belongs to a small club of advanced economies where taking safety, rule-of-law and access to social services for granted is not a naive thing to do. Social coordination exists.

Why is Australia flawed? To _me_, Australia really is the lucky country (this is a pejorative). We haven't had value-shattering cultural shocks since WWI and WWII. We are wealthy and we haven't really had to work for it. We dig up our sovereign wealth and sell it to the highest bidder, returning pennies to the Commonwealth and allowing a few people to become absurdly rich. We havent used that opportunity to bootstrap ourselves to somewhere worthwhile. We've squandered the opportunity and have been sleep walking through this prosperity - our economy lacks diversity and we dont value add.

I will wear my left-leaning heart of my sleeve here: what you experienced is more likely a case of years of neo-liberalism. I agree the big cities can feel very mercantile and cut throat. Sydney is a prime example. Melbourne is moving fast in the same direction. Everything is for sale, grubby deals are rife and investing in public infrastructure is 'too expensive'. The thing is... Australia is in good company. This is happening all over the world.


----------



## JayGee (Dec 21, 2020)

Was talking about the US - in particular the East New York part of Brooklyn.


----------



## alterwisser (Dec 21, 2020)

I don’t know anything about Australia, but as a European who has lived a long time in the US, I’m not at all surprised about the drama in the US.

This might sound harsh (and plenty of Americans take offense), but the US deep in its core is a “Me Me Me”-society. There’s some social fabric, but it’s quite thin and superficial. In the end it almost always boils down to an individuals own personal advantage. The talk about “liberty” and “personal freedom” quite often is just a cover cause it sounds better than talking about greed. After all, it’s established that other countries have more personal freedom (there’s an index) and “liberty” is often just an umbrella (ella ella) term used to justify being awful to other members of society.

The US is driven by money, more than most or any other country in the world. I know, because I admit that it affected and infected me when I lived there. The lockdown opposition is quite frankly so strong because of the economic impact. There’s no other country where people openly say that you should let old people die to save the economy.

I am torn myself, I admit. I’m not sure if the long-term consequences of lockdown after lockdown are worse than the immediate ones of a spreading virus. I really don’t know. I don’t want to be a politician having to make these calls. It’s a lose lose situation.

to Americans who are offended: I love the country. It always has been my dream, always will be. I miss it almost every day. It’s not perfect, but it’s the most fascinating country in the world. Maybe It is BECAUSE it’s not perfect.


----------



## Luftmensch (Dec 21, 2020)

JayGee said:


> Was talking about the US - in particular the East New York part of Brooklyn.



Mia culpa!! Sorry. Forgive me! I think I misread your post?! 



JayGee said:


> any notion of the social - any actual social coordination - was paper thin - it felt like things could fall over at any time.



I thought you were talking about Australia! On reflection you are talking about the US... Apologies! I understand where you are coming from. 

Again, sorry if I misrepresented you there!!


----------



## JayGee (Dec 21, 2020)

All good!


----------



## WildBoar (Dec 22, 2020)

alterwisser said:


> There’s no other country where people openly say that you should let old people die to save the economy.


I guess I hang out in the wrong crowd, as I have not heard anyone say this.

What I HAVE heard is teenagers and 20-somthings saying "all old people should die" but it has nothing to do with the economy.


----------



## juice (Dec 22, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> I guess I hang out in the wrong crowd, as I have not heard anyone say this.
> 
> What I HAVE heard is teenagers and 20-somthings saying "all old people should die" but it has nothing to do with the economy.


No, that sounds like the right crowd.

(Wait, they don't mean ME, right? Just old Americans (not including @M1k3)? OK, sweet.)


----------



## daveb (Dec 22, 2020)

Yo Prune Juice,

The lad could be my son.


----------



## M1k3 (Dec 22, 2020)

juice said:


> No, that sounds like the right crowd.
> 
> (Wait, they don't mean ME, right? Just old Americans (not including @M1k3)? OK, sweet.)





daveb said:


> Yo Prune Juice,
> 
> The lad could be my son.


----------



## Luftmensch (Dec 22, 2020)

alterwisser said:


> There’s no other country where people openly say that you should let old people die to save the economy.



Uuuuuhhh.... Sweden?


----------



## juice (Dec 22, 2020)

daveb said:


> Yo Prune Juice,
> 
> The lad could be my son.






Luftmensch said:


> Uuuuuhhh.... Sweden?


They were pretty clear about it, true.


----------



## M1k3 (Dec 23, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Uuuuuhhh.... Sweden?





juice said:


> They were pretty clear about it, true.


They called it "herd immunity". Haiya.


----------



## ian (Dec 23, 2020)

If everyone is dead already, there is no pandemic!


----------



## juice (Dec 23, 2020)

ian said:


> If everyone is dead already, there is no pandemic!


This is maths outside-the-box thinking!


----------



## Dhoff (Dec 25, 2020)

juice said:


> This is maths outside-the-box thinking!



Depends on which box - Cough -cough - coffin.

Sorry for the unexpectedly dark humour. I have been listening to too much of the band "Poor Mans poison"


----------



## cotedupy (Dec 27, 2020)

I'm a Brit who moved to Australia just over a year ago, and the comparison between the efficacy of the two countries' responses is interesting. [Most of the observations I'm about to make have already been made by others.]

Politically I may not be aligned with the current administration in Australia, but I do think its handling of Covid has been almost faultless... There was an early recognition that lockdowns were the only really effective means to stop the spread of covid until such time as a vaccine became available, and that those lockdowns would incur a significant fiscal expenditure. And there was a decision made that that cost was worth it, in order to save lives. Financial stimulus freed the hands of the various state Premiers to act as they thought necessary - the particularly strong and effective response of Dan Andrews in Victoria would not have been possible without it. So as well as credit due to him and Victorians, I also think there is a fair amount of credit due to the federal government.

In comparison with the UK* the government response here in Aus was considerably more responsible, consistent, and involved less political gamesmanship (there was some, but much less). In the UK the response was muddled and changing from the start, there was the impression that the government were constantly trying to do as little as possible, and this spilled over to a reaction from the public that often complied with the letter, though not the spirit, of the law. The public's response in Australia has been marked in comparison, and I genuinely believe is a result of a mindset difference in regards to community responsibility**.

There are obviously other physical factors in play as well; the ability of states to shut borders, ease of monitoring international borders, population density, differences in social housing, and differing reliance on public transport, have all played a significant part in the contrasting outcomes.

But overwhelmingly I think the single most important enabling factor was early, grown-up, decisive,_ action and message from central government_.


* I'm not going to pass comment on the US, as I know relatively few people there, and little about the autonomy of states in regards to regulations.

** I do not mean to be critical of the large majority of British people here. But as the old cliche goes - in situations like this it only takes a few people to ruin it for everybody else.


----------



## Nemo (Dec 28, 2020)

cotedupy said:


> I'm a Brit who moved to Australia just over a year ago



Decent timing, mate!


----------



## cotedupy (Dec 28, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Decent timing, mate!



Ha! Yep it certainly was


----------



## Nemo (Dec 28, 2020)

Having said that, as the Melbourne outbreak and now the current Sydney outbreak have demonstrated, it's very easy and definitely still possible for things to get out of hand very quickly. Then it takes a huge effort to get the virus under control again, assumimg that you even can.

So I guess we'd better not count our chooks until they hatch.


----------



## juice (Dec 28, 2020)

Nemo said:


> So I guess we'd better not count our chooks until they hatch.


Exactly this.


----------



## WildBoar (Jan 2, 2021)

My business partner was diagnosed this past week, along with his wife. He had two past scares. He is a smart person, and he has seen people get very sick and an employee of a company we work with died from it a few months back. Yet my business partner has continued to downplay the dangers/ hazards. He and his family spend the Christmas weekend in a vacation house with another family. Both have multiple kids ranging from teens to early 30s. At least 4 of them are sick now. It has nothing to do with 'leadership' -- it's a refusal to make many concessions since 'not that many people overall get it, and most have very little -- if any -- symptoms'. Of course they all have mild cases, so this will just reaffirm his belief that it is all overblown.

He's effin' lucky, as he got a bad infection a few years back that almost killed him, and damaged his heart. But that still has not been enough for him to allow his life to be changed much by the virus.


----------



## Michi (Jan 2, 2021)

The case fatality rate is indeed not that large. For the US, overall case fatality rate is 1.7%. And that includes a lot of people who are in high-risk groups (advanced age, diabetes, cardiovascular conditions, etc). So, if I am young and healthy and contract the virus, my chances of coming out alive are quite good.

Not that this is any consolation to the people who are in a high-risk group and whom I might unknowingly infect. (If I'm over 75, my chances of dying are 220 times higher than of someone under 30.) Nor is it any consolation when one considers the economic damage the virus ends up causing. And some people, even though they survive the virus, end up with permanent problems, including quite serious ones, such as psychosis from brain damage.

Down-playing the virus is not a good idea, IMO. Looking at Europe, South America, and the US and seeing the harm caused by the virus makes this abundantly clear. To me, the notion of social responsibility plays quite strongly into this discussion. But that is an individual choice, of course.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jan 2, 2021)

Nemo said:


> Having said that, as the Melbourne outbreak and now the current Sydney outbreak have demonstrated, it's very easy and definitely still possible for things to get out of hand very quickly.



For those following the thread. If you aren't reading international news... and I wouldn't blame you... Sydney has indications of another wave. Increasing local transmission is spread throughout the greater region. Our state (NSW) premier has equivocated on doing anything meaningful early. We had signs before Christmas. I suppose the government wanted to "keep the state open" and didnt want to ruin Christmas and New Years.



Nemo said:


> Then it takes a huge effort to get the virus under control again, assumimg that you even can.


 
Fortunately for us, it is clear that even our right-leaning governments are sensible enough to act when absolutely required. It just takes them longer to do so and the response is weaker. Will we get the virus under control again? Yes - I highly expect we will. 

The problem is that New-South-Welshmen had to watch our leaders explain rules that seemed to change every other day, with exceptions that were confusing or made little sense. Why is the Northern Beaches effectively locked down while the SCG gets to play cricket?? All the while the leadership have dragged their feet on "free" measures like mask wearing. 

No... we will get this under control but if we have a second wave or a long period of restrictions it is because they chose not to act early. The cost is more sick people. Potentially more deaths. And ironically for them, worse economic outcomes due to longer restrictions.


----------



## Nemo (Jan 2, 2021)

[Puts mod hat on]
Just a reminder to please keep the politics out of this thread as much as possible. By all means talk about events and policies (and their effects) but avoid calling names and attributing blame to a particular political side, even if you are certain that it's justified. I'm certain someone else will be certain that it isn't justified and I'm pretty sure that you are not going to convince them here.

There is apparently a virtual space called Twitter where you can fight those wars. Have at it over there.

We have done an OK job keeping this thread sensible up until now, given the contensiousness of the topic. Lets not go astray now.
[Takes mod hat off]


----------



## Nemo (Jan 2, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Will we get the virus under control again? Yes - I highly expect we will.
> 
> The problem is that New-South-Welshmen had to watch our leaders explain rules that seemed to change every other day, with exceptions that were confusing or made little sense. Why is the Northern Beaches effectively locked down while the SCG gets to play cricket?? All the while the leadership have dragged their feet on "free" measures like mask wearing.
> 
> No... we will get this under control but if we have a second wave or a long period of restrictions it is because they chose not to act early. The cost is more sick people. Potentially more deaths. And ironically for them, worse economic outcomes due to longer restrictions.


The cricket decision also baffles me. I do hope that it's not the innaugural Superspreading Test Match.

I also find the reluctance to mandate masks in NSW difficult to understand. I suspect that there is a decent chance that they would have limited the latest bottleshop cluster where 2000 odd people were exposed.

The NSW Govt seems supremely confident in NSW Health's ability to track and isolate to close the cluster down. I hope that they are correct, although I worry that they they are playing with fire. As you say, the economic, social and health consequences if they misjudge would make Adelaide's 3 day lockdown look like a walk in the park.

I also find it surprising that anyone from Sydney can come out to regional NSW. No "Ring of Air (ahem Steel)" like they had in Melbourne.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jan 2, 2021)

Nemo said:


> [Puts mod hat on]
> Just a reminder to please keep the politics out of this thread as much as possible please. By all means talk about events and policies (and their effects) but avoid calling names and attributing blame to a particular political side, even if you are certain that it's justified. I'm certain someone else will be certain that it isn't justified and I'm pretty sure that you are not going to convince them here.
> 
> There is apparently a virtual space called Twitter where you can fight those wars. Have at it over there.
> ...



Apologies. 

I am aware of the rules. I do flirt with the boundaries on this one - perhaps more than i should! I try to be fair and offer level criticism/praise to both sides. That said I cant help but infuse that with the tone of of my political views.

I appreciate the extra flexibility the @mods have provided in this corner of KKF . All in all it has been remarkably civilised


----------



## mcwcdn (Jan 3, 2021)

Where I live in Canada we are not allowed to have any visitors at your personal residence. Everything is closed except for stores that sell essential goods. Our hospitals were (maybe still are?) pretty full but the daily case numbers are coming down. The "lockdowns" that were imposed here seem to have worked at slowing the spread but as everyone knows the issue is that you can not keep everything closed forever and once you open the faucet it pours. 

I must also say I am not for/against lockdowns. I am sorry to anyone and everyone that has lost someone or has been impacted negatively by this and I am in no way educated on viruses etc, I am just sharing the conditions we are told to live under and I do as I am told.


----------



## cotedupy (Jan 4, 2021)

Nemo said:


> The cricket decision also baffles me. I do hope that it's not the innaugural Superspreading Test Match.
> 
> I also find the reluctance to mandate masks in NSW difficult to understand. I suspect that there is a decent chance that they would have limited the latest bottleshop cluster where 2000 odd people were exposed.
> 
> ...




I was in Sydney mid November and there was certainly more evidence there that we were in the midst of a global pandemic. I'd barely seen anyone in Adelaide wearing a mask but lots in Sydney, and the checking in system was being taken far more seriously in bars/shops/restaurants. SA has since then brought the latter in, but barely anywhere enforces it / makes sure people have done so.

So fingers crossed for NSW. I fear that if we had a similar outbreak in SA that people here would have become so used to not really having any cases here, that there'd be a degree of complacency that people in NSW and VIC are less likely to have.


----------



## Nemo (Jan 4, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I was in Sydney mid November and there was certainly more evidence there that we were in the midst of a global pandemic. I'd barely seen anyone in Adelaide wearing a mask but lots in Sydney, and the checking in system was being taken far more seriously in bars/shops/restaurants. SA has since then brought the latter in, but barely anywhere enforces it / makes sure people have done so.
> 
> So fingers crossed for NSW. I fear that if we had a similar outbreak in SA that people here would have become so used to not really having any cases here, that there'd be a degree of complacency that people in NSW and VIC are less likely to have.


I'm hearing you. Still very few people wearing masks in my neck of the woods. Unless I cross over to Victoria. Then almost everyone is.

This virus finds every chink in the armour. Complacency does seem to be its good friend.


----------

