# Opinions on VG10



## flying hippo (Aug 13, 2019)

I've shied away from VG10 thinking its a "lesser" steel. Being new to Japanese kitchen knives, I've seen some VG10 based layered Damascus style patterns which are admittedly pretty nifty. Setting aside the stain resistance, I was wondering what people's opinions were on VG10 and which smith/company has a good VG10 heat treatment.

Thanks!


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## chinacats (Aug 13, 2019)

I personally don't do stainless but if i did I'd be all over Tanakas vg-10... excellent steel w good treatment.


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## pkjames (Aug 13, 2019)

From my experience, the negative perception of VG10 is largely because it is widely used in mass produced knives, which mostly have mediocre performance compared to the handmade forged knives.
However, properly forged VG10 knife, with good profile and geometry,can still bg a good knife as VG10 never the less was originally designed as a dedicated cutlery steel.

Put it this way: not many people associate Hitachi Ginsan (Gin3, Silver 3) with a bad steel, the price of Ginsan knives are generally higher as well. Yet if we look at the following chart, we can see, from a pure composition point of view: the VG10 has similar carbon to Ginsan, but with more alloy elements (enhancing the steel properties), it should in theory be on par with (if not better than) Ginsan in terms of performance.
Steel together with proper heat treatment, along with a good profile, good balance, and good geometry define a good knife.





(Kudos to Gator!)


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## flying hippo (Aug 14, 2019)

Thanks for the comments. I think you are correct about the mass production of VG10 in mass produced knives. That's certainly the bias I have. 

Heat treatment is one of those things that you can never tell when looking at a knife. Edge geometry, profile you can get a idea when looking at pictures, but steel and heat treat you don't quite know until you have knife in hand and are using it.


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## bahamaroot (Aug 15, 2019)

If you get a knife from a well known smith with a good reputation odds are heat treatment will not be an issue.
I think it is an underrated stainless steel.


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## stringer (Aug 15, 2019)

I've used VG10 at home and at work. It works great. Even the mass produced stuff. Some people don't like to sharpen it, and while not as easy as Ginsan or AEBL, it's not bad and it holds a "working edge" about as well as anything available on the market. 

An old chef had a Masanobu in VG10. It was the nicest rendition I've worked with. Solid middleweight knife.


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## Benuser (Aug 16, 2019)

Deburring VG-10 takes some more attention than some other stainless. Careful abrading the burr through the entire progression is needed. Likely to develop a wire edge. 
AEB-L indeed, or 14C28N are almost carbon-like in that respect.
The dulling curve is a bit abrupt. Its screaming sharpness right of the stones will soon disappear. What remains, though, is a very acceptable level of sharpness that stays almost forever.


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## kayman67 (Aug 16, 2019)

It got a bad rep because:

For most people this is the first step from softer alloys, not so good knives and so on. But those knives are really strong and it's hard to damage those edges. If used the same way, a VG10 edge can be damaged badly and fast. I've seen people doing in less than 10 seconds. First cuts and it was done.

Second, since manufacturers are aware that this is likely to be that first step towards better knives, they want to impress and many will offer very aggressive edges, really thin. This just makes things worse. I got many with "chipping" problems, made a few adjustments and they are still in one piece.
Some makers do put more resilient edges on knives. I think Yoshihiro does this with some of them.

Third, sharpening. I've been reading for ages that VG10 will deburr extremely hard, that it's very problematic to sharpen. I can't comment that much on this. The way I sharpen, I never had any problems with it. I find VG10 easy to sharpen and keep sharp with routine maintenance.


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## stringer (Aug 16, 2019)

kayman67 said:


> It got a bad rep because:
> 
> For most people this is the first step from softer alloys, not so good knives and so on. But those knives are really strong and it's hard to damage those edges. If used the same way, a VG10 edge can be damaged badly and fast. I've seen people doing in less than 10 seconds. First cuts and it was done.
> 
> ...



Routine maintenance is key. People buy them as a first Japanese knife and think they are chippy and then a few years of sharpening without thinning later they have a wedge monster. Vg-10 requires very little maintenance but it has to be routine. A little thinning every couple of sharpenings. For a home knife, a couple of sharpenings a year. It could be awhile. For a work knife, whatever's appropriate, but make sure you pay attention to thinning and don't let the bench grinder/belt sander guy touch them.


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## flying hippo (Aug 16, 2019)

Benuser said:


> The dulling curve is a bit abrupt. Its screaming sharpness right of the stones will soon disappear. What remains, though, is a very acceptable level of sharpness that stays almost forever



I think I read that another stainless behaved very similar (S30V maybe?) that it couldn't keep a ridiculous edge but kept a decent one for a long time. Contrast to that with a finer grained 14C28/14C28N that was easier to get sharp but had generally less edge retention. 



stringer said:


> An old chef had a Masanobu in VG10. It was the nicest rendition I've worked with. Solid middleweight knife.



Are there any other smiths/makers who have standout reputations with VG10?


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## parbaked (Aug 16, 2019)

flying hippo said:


> Are there any other smiths/makers who have standout reputations with VG10?



Hattori & Shigeki Tanaka are two that I have tried....


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## Nemo (Aug 16, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Hattori & Shigeki Tanaka are two that I have tried....


I think that Ryusen has ap pretty good reputation for VG10 heat treatment.


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## McMan (Aug 16, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Hattori & Shigeki Tanaka are two that I have tried....





Nemo said:


> I think that Ryusen has ap pretty good reputation for VG10 heat treatment.



I agree with what’s been said about Tanaka. I’ve got an older one in vg10 from him and it’s very nice. Wish I could speak to Ryusen—it’s on the list and I’ve heard good stuff about them. I’ve also heard Takeshita Saji does VG10 well.
Id be wary of trying it from lesser known makers—when it’s bad, it’s really bad.


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## bahamaroot (Aug 16, 2019)

I've used VG10 from Yu Kurosaki and think he does a very good job with it.


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## inferno (Aug 16, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> If you get a knife from a well known smith with a good reputation odds are heat treatment will not be an issue.
> I think it is an underrated stainless steel.



even crappy aus8 from mac is actually very very good. because they process it well.


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## never mind (Aug 16, 2019)

Hiromoto vg-10 is wonderful. I didn’t believe it is vg-10. Crazy. 

I use it more than I should. Very happy about the damascus pattern, the edge retention and sharpening (I don’t think I have any burr-removal problem at all). I felt he is a magician in his heat treatment. His point of views for all his knife collections is also very artistic & interesting in his own way. Sad that he closed his very unique shop for retirement


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## Marek07 (Aug 17, 2019)

As others have already said - Tanaka. Not surprising though. *Every* Tanaka I've had, regardless of steel, style or price point has been a great cutter.


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## flying hippo (Aug 17, 2019)

Thanks everyone for the recommendations!


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## inferno (Aug 17, 2019)

my buddy has a new production hattori and he is very satisfied with it. hattoris are made by ryusen, at least they HT the blades for them.


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## Benuser (Aug 27, 2019)

flying hippo said:


> I think I read that another stainless behaved very similar (S30V maybe?) that it couldn't keep a ridiculous edge but kept a decent one for a long time. Contrast to that with a finer grained 14C28/14C28N that was easier to get sharp but had generally less edge retention.


Any experience about edge retention using 14C28N?
Not sure whether there is such a thing as 14C28 other than 14C28N.


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## flying hippo (Sep 1, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Any experience about edge retention using 14C28N?
> Not sure whether there is such a thing as 14C28 other than 14C28N.



My mistake, I was thinking of 13c26. I had a couple of kershaw pocket knives that were 13c26 and then kershaw upgraded to 14C28n about 10 years ago. For some reason I thought it was 14c28. I can't speak to edge retention on a kitchen knife but I liked 14c28n a lot on my kershaw skyline.


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## calostro5 (Oct 6, 2019)

What about the VG10 used by Tojiro?


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## Benuser (Oct 7, 2019)

calostro5 said:


> What about the VG10 used by Tojiro?


With any VG-10, don't expect a burr to break off as it were some basic carbon. And if it did, it would leave a terribly damaged edge behind. The burr has really to get abraded with a light touch through the entire progression. Longitudinal strokes, i.e. along the edge, or slightly edge leading. If you use too much pressure or have an aggressive stone, a new burr is likely to develop. Prone to developing a wire edge, i.e. an accumulation of debris on top of the edge. Very sharp but failing at the first board contact. Use a marker and loupe and stay as long as it takes with the first, coarse stone. 
I found Belgian Blue — the cheap, neglected nephew of the Coticule — very useful for deburring. It's almost round abrasive particles are too smooth for normal kitchen knife sharpening as they take away any bite. Very helpful in this particular use, as a deburrer (?), as it takes smoothly away without creating a new one. 
Once you can deal with deburring VG-10 your sharpening will greatly improve with any steel.
Start with a medium-coarse stone to make sure you deal with fresh steel. Edge stability will benefit. Go only to the next one if no further improvement can be obtained. 
That was about VG-10 in general. I found the Tojiros I've seen rather pleasant. In no way related to the poor reputation VG-10 has got.


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## Carl Kotte (Oct 7, 2019)

Great advice @Benuser! Thanks.
And, I agree about the Tojiro VG-10. The ones I’ve sharpened and used have been nice. I’ve sharpened worse VG-10s.


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## Qapla' (Oct 7, 2019)

What are people's views on high-end VG-10 knives, e.g. Ichimonji and Kikumori's fancy single-bevel VG-10 knives, or Kama-Asa's VG-10 honyaki knives (made by Kenichi Shiraki and Kazumi Kawakita)?


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## calostro5 (Oct 7, 2019)

Benuser said:


> With any VG-10, don't expect a burr to break off as it were some basic carbon. And if it did, it would leave a terribly damaged edge behind. The burr has really to get abraded with a light touch through the entire progression. Longitudinal strokes, i.e. along the edge, or slightly edge leading. If you use too much pressure or have an aggressive stone, a new burr is likely to develop. Prone to developing a wire edge, i.e. an accumulation of debris on top of the edge. Very sharp but failing at the first board contact. Use a marker and loupe and stay as long as it takes with the first, coarse stone.
> I found Belgian Blue — the cheap, neglected nephew of the Coticule — very useful for deburring. It's almost round abrasive particles are too smooth for normal kitchen knife sharpening as they take away any bite. Very helpful in this particular use, as a deburrer (?), as it takes smoothly away without creating a new one.
> Once you can deal with deburring VG-10 your sharpening will greatly improve with any steel.
> Start with a medium-coarse stone to make sure you deal with fresh steel. Edge stability will benefit. Go only to the next one if no further improvement can be obtained.
> That was about VG-10 in general. I found the Tojiros I've seen rather pleasant. In no way related to the poor reputation VG-10 has got.



Thank you for your elaborate reply. I have in mind buying a japanese knife, and Tojiro is not expensive.



Carl Kotte said:


> Great advice @Benuser! Thanks.
> And, I agree about the Tojiro VG-10. The ones I’ve sharpened and used have been nice. I’ve sharpened worse VG-10s.



So, I understand that this knives have a good quality/price ratio.


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## Marek07 (Oct 7, 2019)

Benuser said:


> _<snip>_ I found Belgian Blue — the cheap, neglected nephew of the Coticule — very useful for deburring. It's almost round abrasive particles are too smooth for normal kitchen knife sharpening as they take away any bite. Very helpful in this particular use, as a deburrer (?), as it takes smoothly away without creating a new one. _<snip>_


Very interesting! Only recently started playing with a Belgian Blue. Will have to experiment with it as a deburrer - VG-10 knives in particular - thanks.


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## Benuser (Oct 8, 2019)

Marek07 said:


> Very interesting! Only recently started playing with a Belgian Blue. Will have to experiment with it as a deburrer - VG-10 knives in particular - thanks.


Make sure the surface isn't too smooth. A few passes with an Atoma help. Old school medium is... saliva! Have fun!


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## kayman67 (Oct 8, 2019)

Marek07 said:


> Very interesting! Only recently started playing with a Belgian Blue. Will have to experiment with it as a deburrer - VG-10 knives in particular - thanks.



It doesn't matter if it's a BBW or not. I've introduced a natural like this for some years into the progression of people struggling with getting a clean apex. Mostly BBW and Dalmore Blue, but there were others just as good.


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## ButlerHoosierChef (Oct 29, 2019)

If I had to go with any VG 10 it would have to be from Shiraki. His VG 10 in my opinion is above the rest.


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