# Help Needed: Rough Times...



## ModRQC (Jun 27, 2021)

Here we are:







Up there, we have a ****** Pride 220, my very favorite Sigma 240, Ouka which would have us asking w-t-f it's doing there, and Cerax 320.

It's not critical yet, especially since I've dished these mostly back when I was not using them properly, so I have some time... But it's time anyways! In the picture you can see a part of my other coarse and med-coarse proxies: Atoma 140, SG500, Cerax 700. None of the three is about to see real thinning work though.

Pride 220 is out of the equation. I use it to relieve/primary edge cheap SS as it eats them pretty fast and IDGAF about it. Should last a while in such case scenario.

Ouka I'll buy the full size one, but is still part of my query.

Sigma 240 I just love that stone once it's sealed. It's horrible, but when getting tune to it, it's music of some guttural kind and it works splendidly well. It tells me a lot, and gave me a lot.

Cerax 320 I like that stone too, but admittedly didn't use it much since Sigma and Pride got here. It is still amidst my contenders.

I'll likely buy two coarse and one fine + Ouka. Or one bigsonofa coarse and two fines + Ouka.


Questions:

1- Can someone compare Sigma 240 with King 200 Silicon Carbide (Green) which is more than twice as thick than Sigma for 20$ less? I think Sigma is sintered, King is probably bonded, so weaker/more dishy? Also, I've had no problems flattening Sigma with Atoma 140. I'm wondering if King 200 I can consider doing the same.

2- Shapton 120 + 220: remind me the virtues, and should I get these Glass or Pro?

3- Fine stones: I've heard a lot of good about SG4K and King 4K and would like to give them a spin. My question is: SG4K HC or HR or should I get another grit SG instead? And as for that King that supposedly works so well, is it this one? :



https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/sharpening/stones/56542-king-4000x-water-stones



I can also have the Ice Bear series, but from a vendor where I don't have much incentive buying. For it to be worth it, I'd be looking at buying like a whole series of King Ice Bear like 220 - 1000 - 4000.


I'm rather looking at either buying: S(P-G)120 + S(P-G)220 + SG4K with Paul, and Ouka from Amazon, or King 200 SiC + King 4K + SG4K from Lee Valley + Ouka from Amazon. If Lee Valley, I might interchange one of the fines with one of the SP120-220.

While I don't like the Pride 220 because even sealed and soaked for half an hour it dries about instantly, I'll still remind that it does eat stainless like nobody's business, and I think SP120 has such if not better legendary status?

So thanks for any input.


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## cotedupy (Jun 27, 2021)

Afraid I can't help with much of this apart from to say - yes that is the King 4k that people like. If I was being pedantic I'd say that I think they've pictured the 6k version, and that the 4k is 'F-3'. Not certain on that though, so I do risk being pedantic _and _incorrect. Which is never a good look.


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## ModRQC (Jun 27, 2021)

Let’s hope some more folks can be pedantic here. I mean, I’ve went with this thread to gather pure pedantism - on top of my own, obviously.

It’s a rhetoric thread. I’d just like to see these options discussed again within the limitations I’ve set.

Let’s be rhetoric pedants… or pedantic rhetoriticians… just for the sakes of knowing stones can never be summed up, but there can always be good tries and sharp POVs about them.


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## M1k3 (Jun 28, 2021)

Hands down I'd buy the Glass 4k again. Maybe. Really liking the Venev stone I got....

The Shapton Pro 120 is really hard. It's great for a lot of thinning on soft stainless clad knives. And fixing highly damaged knives, like broken tips (don't worry about removing the grooves left behind, it helps release abrasives when sharpening). Everything else it'll slow down from not refreshing the abrasives.

Can't speak about the King 200, but, the 300 is pretty hard, decent stone especially for it's price.


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## ModRQC (Jun 28, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Hands down I'd buy the Glass 4k again. Maybe. Really liking the Venev stone I got....
> 
> The Shapton Pro 120 is really hard. It's great for a lot of thinning on soft stainless clad knives. And fixing highly damaged knives, like broken tips (don't worry about removing the grooves left behind, it helps release abrasives when sharpening). Everything else it'll slow down from not refreshing the abrasives.
> 
> Can't speak about the King 200, but, the 300 is pretty hard, decent stone especially for it's price.



That SG4K you got is the regular version?


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## Matus (Jun 28, 2021)

If you are looking for a coarse stone with the best bang for the buck, then Bester 220 is probably your best bet. Sigma 240 is supposed to be faster, but is thinner and also dishes faster.

Shapton Pro 120 can be brutally fast (with some serious scratches), but you either have to be able to sustain super high pressure, or you have to quickly dress the stone every few minutes with something coarse. Otherwise it looses speed.

For medium grit the Shpton Pro 1000 is hard to beat. 

For finer grit 3K or 4K Shapton Glass works very well. 

If you need a stone between Bester 220 and Shapton Pro 1000, I would probably add Shapton Glass 500 in double thickness, but if you are only looking for stones to keep the edge in check, then you can indeed go from 220 to 1000. Kasumi or scratch removal after thinning is a different story.


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## ModRQC (Jun 28, 2021)

Matus said:


> If you are looking for a coarse stone with the best bang for the buck, then Bester 220 is probably your best bet. Sigma 240 is supposed to be faster, but is thinner and also dishes faster.
> 
> Shapton Pro 120 can be brutally fast (with some serious scratches), but you either have to be able to sustain super high pressure, or you have to quickly dress the stone every few minutes with something coarse. Otherwise it looses speed.
> 
> ...



Sadly only Bester vendor I can find around here doesn’t carry anything below the 700. Vendors carrying Imanishi seem to never stock the coarser grits neither. 

I have SG500, SP1K. 

Thanks for another vote of confidence with the SG4K. Think I’m more and more inclined with that one over the King.

Need a King stones afficionado now to defend the King options in this thread!


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## Delat (Jun 28, 2021)

You might find this article helpful - it demystified Shaptons for me when I was picking out my first set of stones. It’s general info though and I wouldn’t place it above people’s personal experience. I never was able to find really solid info on HC vs HR other than a description on ck2g saying the HC polishes a little finer. 









Shapton Stone Tutorial Part 1: Introduction to the Shapton Pro and Glass Series


I was asked to put together something to help people discern between the different Shapton product lines by Locutus, a respected member of The Knife Forums. This is my first installment. First, a l…




jendeindustries.wpcomstaging.com


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## K.Bouldin (Jun 28, 2021)

Japanese Grocery Store Online Delivery | MTC Kitchen Home NY


Shop MTC Kitchen Home NY to be delivered right to your door. We strive to bring japanese food delivery directly to your table at home. Learn more here!




home-ny.mtckitchen.com





I’ve been really digging this stone over the last year or so… It’s SiC


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## ModRQC (Jun 28, 2021)

K.Bouldin said:


> Japanese Grocery Store Online Delivery | MTC Kitchen Home NY
> 
> 
> Shop MTC Kitchen Home NY to be delivered right to your door. We strive to bring japanese food delivery directly to your table at home. Learn more here!
> ...



Looks nice. However can’t find it easily in Canada, will have to look deeper into it. Seems to replicate King’s option well and I took a liking to all Suehiro tried so far. Thanks!


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## M1k3 (Jun 28, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> That SG4K you got is the regular version?


Yes, the regular one.


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## branwell (Jun 28, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Need a King stones afficionado now to defend the King options in this thread!


I have a few stones in the 4K range including the Chosera 3k, King Icebear 4k, Nubatama Bamboo 5k, Rika 5K, Shapton Glass 6k, Arishama 6k, King 6K S1 and several JNats.

The King Icebear 4K easily see's more use than any of them. Its S&G, fast, feels decent with slurry, and leaves an edge I really love. Very keen with good bite.

I don't know about other versions of the King 4k, but the Icebear version is definitely one of my all time favorites and its cheap to boot. If you do get one, it really likes slurry. I use either a little blue DMT ( 320 mesh ) plate or a chunk of Aoto.


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## ModRQC (Jun 28, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Yes, the regular one.



Thanks @M1k3 



branwell said:


> I have a few stones in the 4K range including the Chosera 3k, King Icebear 4k, Nubatama Bamboo 5k, Rika 5K, Shapton Glass 6k, Arishama 6k, King 6K S1 and several JNats.
> 
> The King Icebear 4K easily see's more use than any of them. Its S&G, fast, feels decent with slurry, and leaves an edge I really love. Very keen with good bite.
> 
> I don't know about other versions of the King 4k, but the Icebear version is definitely one of my all time favorites and its cheap to boot. If you do get one, it really likes slurry. I use either a little blue DMT ( 320 mesh ) plate or a chunk of Aoto.



I’m pretty sure one post of you at least was among those that drove me to it. The one I linked in the OP is it anything close resembling your Ice Bear?


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## branwell (Jun 28, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> is it anything close resembling your Ice Bear?


What you linked is similar in color to the 6K S1. The Icebear 4K is more gray in color.


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## ModRQC (Jun 28, 2021)

branwell said:


> What you linked is similar in color to the 6K S1. The Icebear 4K is more gray in color.



Yeah pics seemed to indicate that too.

Any experience with any other of that range? Asking because as I said in the OP, only way of making sense of ordering the Ice Bear would be to reach free shipping. A whole progression might be in order. I can readily try the 220 and even buy two of them - at that price can’t really go wrong. Or grab 220 - 1000 just for kicks of a whole prog of them.


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## branwell (Jun 29, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Any experience with any other of that range?



I've never tried the low grit Kings. I plan to but haven't yet.

I do have the KD 800, 1K, and 1.2k and while they are definitely good stones in that fully soaked they feel good and leave awesome edges, compared to other stones of similar grit ratings, they can feel a little slow. Am thinking the Neo line might be worth a try. People have good things to say about them. The Neo 800 with the Icebear 4k might be a great combo.


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## inferno (Jun 29, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Questions:
> 
> 1- Can someone compare Sigma 240 with King 200 Silicon Carbide (Green) which is more than twice as thick than Sigma for 20$ less? I think Sigma is sintered, King is probably bonded, so weaker/more dishy? Also, I've had no problems flattening Sigma with Atoma 140. I'm wondering if King 200 I can consider doing the same.
> 
> ...



reply is in the quote because i'm lazy.


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## ModRQC (Jul 5, 2021)

inferno said:


> reply is in the quote because i'm lazy.



I appreciate your input. Couldn't believe you wouldn't. Sorry - I was moving last week and barely had time or energy to lurk by here.

If the same crap (220 SiC) then why is Sigma twice the price - and people still buying it? Won't know until I try one.
_Edit: Ok might have exaggerated this one. But King is twice as thick and 20% less expensive (other similar variants also as thick as King and less expensive), so surely there's something into this._

Only thing misleading, each time you talk about SG/SP220, is that SP220 is always one of your favs overall, but SG200 is faster and lasts longer?

I might indeed like the SG3K. But...

Nothing against your 8K suggestion, but Ouka is both an excellent last polisher and final edge to me. It deserves that I buy another one. Hence why a SG3K is less tempting. I've not found a 4K stone that really pleases me yet. Enough good comments about SG4K to be worth a try at the price.

But thanks exactly what I needed.

I'd still like someone to step in and defend these King stones a bit further...

@KingShapton ?


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## Forty Ounce (Jul 6, 2021)

When you say king 200, do you mean the sun tiger 200 that Lee Valley carries? I'm aware that sun tiger and king are the same manufacturer, but the king 220 and sun tiger 200 feel a bit different. The Sigma 240 is closer to the king 220 in regards to it dishing left and cutting quickly. I've been thinning a TF white 1 with stainless cladding and it's cutting very quickly. I like the sun tiger 200, but it's much softer/muddier than the sigma. I'd prefer to use it for monosteel and the sigma for clad knives.


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## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2021)

Forty Ounce said:


> When you say king 200, do you mean the sun tiger 200 that Lee Valley carries? I'm aware that sun tiger and king are the same manufacturer, but the king 220 and sun tiger 200 feel a bit different. The Sigma 240 is closer to the king 220 in regards to it dishing left and cutting quickly. I've been thinning a TF white 1 with stainless cladding and it's cutting very quickly. I like the sun tiger 200, but it's much softer/muddier than the sigma. I'd prefer to use it for monosteel and the sigma for clad knives.



Thanks!

Canada here so Lee Valley might not have the same stocks you can see for US, but here’s the link.



https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/sharpening/stones/33025-king-200x-green-silicon-carbide-stone?item=60M6001



Know anything about the different King 4K iterations out there?


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## Forty Ounce (Jul 6, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Canada here so Lee Valley might not have the same stocks you can see for US, but here’s the link.
> 
> ...


They say king on the site, but it showed up as sun tiger.. I was really hoping it was a bigger version of the king 220, but luckily the sigma 240 is very similar. I haven't tried the king 4k, but I imagine it's decent, based on the luck I've had with king stones.


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## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2021)

Forty Ounce said:


> They say king on the site, but it showed up as sun tiger.. I was really hoping it was a bigger version of the king 220, but luckily the sigma 240 is very similar. I haven't tried the king 4k, but I imagine it's decent, based on the luck I've had with king stones.



So if I got that correcty, you’ve ordered the King 200 with them and got a Sun Tiger branded stone instead - which according to your experience is quite softer and muddier than the King 220, the latter more akin with Sigma.

If I can bother you with a last query, any particular reason why you’d prefer the sun tiger over monosteel - or the other way around with clad knives?


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## Forty Ounce (Jul 6, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> So if I got that correcty, you’ve ordered the King 200 with them and got a Sun Tiger branded stone instead - which according to your experience is quite softer and muddier than the King 220, the latter more akin with Sigma.
> 
> If I can bother you with a last query, any particular reason why you’d prefer the sun tiger over monosteel - or the other way around with clad knives?


Correct. 
For monosteel, I'd rather have a softer/muddier stone for cutting speed. With clad knives, especially knives with a shinogi, I'd rather not be constantly washing the mud off of the stone.


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## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2021)

Forty Ounce said:


> Correct.
> For monosteel, I'd rather have a softer/muddier stone for cutting speed. With clad knives, especially knives with a shinogi, I'd rather not be constantly washing the mud off of the stone.



Awesome! Details matter to me. Thanks a lot for indulging. This was really helping.


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## KingShapton (Jul 7, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> I'd still like someone to step in and defend these King stones a bit further...
> 
> @KingShapton ?


I mean I wrote to you a long time ago that the King 4000 is a very good stone ?! I still think it's one of my favorites when it comes to synthetic stones.

And I also have the Shapton Glass 4k, also a very good stone, maybe a bit more flexible than the King when it comes to more exotic steels, but of the two I would definitely prefer the King 4k.



branwell said:


> The King Icebear 4K easily see's more use than any of them. Its S&G, fast, feels decent with slurry, and leaves an edge I really love. Very keen with good bite.


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## ModRQC (Jul 7, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> I mean I wrote to you a long time ago that the King 4000 is a very good stone ?! I still think it's one of my favorites when it comes to synthetic stones.
> 
> And I also have the Shapton Glass 4k, also a very good stone, maybe a bit more flexible than the King when it comes to more exotic steels, but of the two I would definitely prefer the King 4k.



Yessir you did. But there was reservations as to which version. Also under discussion are a series of King Ice Bear and how the 4K of that series is different or perhaps the same than the one I linked from Lee Valley. 

So if you know anything about that you can PM me or discuss it here.


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## KingShapton (Jul 7, 2021)

I looked at your link to Lee Valley and the stones on offer look very similar to mine.

But I also suspect that the King Ice Bear should be the same stones. If you want to be 100% sure, buy a stone from King (Matsunaga).


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## ModRQC (Jul 7, 2021)

Thanks! Fully appreciated. I'm guessing your reasons for liking King 4K better than SG4K are in the same line as our discussion about the virtues of the KDS 1200?


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## KingShapton (Jul 7, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Thanks! Fully appreciated. I'm guessing your reasons for liking King 4K better than SG4K are in the same line as our discussion about the virtues of the KDS 1200?


absolutely correct


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## branwell (Jul 7, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> I'm guessing your reasons for liking King 4K better than SG4K are in the same line as our discussion about the virtues of the KDS 1200?


Worth noting. Where the King KD stones are great in many regards, they are not that fast. That said, properly soaked they are a lot faster than with a minimal soak but at best, they are medium speed stones on stuff like AS steel.

Judging by black slurry generation, the King IB 4K on the other hand is comparable speed wise to stones like the Shapton Glass 2K, Naniwa Pro2K, Chosera 3K, Rika 5k. Definitely not a slouch. Tip. It likes slurry so if you get one, try a little DMT blue plate ( 320 grit ).


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## inferno (Jul 9, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> I appreciate your input. Couldn't believe you wouldn't. Sorry - I was moving last week and barely had time or energy to lurk by here.
> 
> If the same crap (220 SiC) then why is Sigma twice the price - and people still buying it? Won't know until I try one.
> _Edit: Ok might have exaggerated this one. But King is twice as thick and 20% less expensive (other similar variants also as thick as King and less expensive), so surely there's something into this._
> ...



well with the sigma you get a quality brand so its probably as good as its gonna get for this type of stone. with the king. it might be good or it might be crap. no one really knows. i just didnt want to take a chance so i got the more expensive sigma. and it turns out i dont like this type of stone. still usable though, just not a favorite.

the glass wears slower, it dishes slower and its faster. thats what i meant. its about 7-8mm or stone on the glass 220. 
the pro wears faster, and dishes faster and is muddier. but its twice as thick. but unless yiou glue it to something it will crack at like 3-4mm when using it.
so the end result will be probably the same. same amount of steel abraded when they are finished.

an alternative 4k stone that i think is quite good: the cleancut kitayama 4k (i think its the same as bester/imanishi 4k though). softer, creamier, not very muddy. not a soaker. you can cut into it by mistake. i like this as contrast to my glass 4k. its a bit slower than the glass though. creates a quite good kasumi finish too if you do your part.


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## ModRQC (Jul 9, 2021)

inferno said:


> well with the sigma you get a quality brand so its probably as good as its gonna get for this type of stone. with the king. it might be good or it might be crap. no one really knows. i just didnt want to take a chance so i got the more expensive sigma. and it turns out i dont like this type of stone. still usable though, just not a favorite.
> 
> the glass wears slower, it dishes slower and its faster. thats what i meant. its about 7-8mm or stone on the glass 220.
> the pro wears faster, and dishes faster and is muddier. but its twice as thick. but unless yiou glue it to something it will crack at like 3-4mm when using it.
> ...



So why would SP220 be your fav, if just about everything about it you depict in a worse light than the SG220? 

I have Imanishi 4k in a combo stone. I surmise it can work nice, but I think that one is messed up somehow. Real weird behavior overall and feels like sharpening on junk. I had a deal on that combo because Tosho had used it a bit to write their usual description/appreciation. I think the 4K side just didn't like the winter shipping while it was probably still damp. I almost had input a note when ordering that they could take the time it took to have it dry, but I thought they'd be diligent enough not to put it up for sale if it wasn't dry yet. I guess I should have asked.


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## inferno (Jul 9, 2021)

its just a good combo of everything. it does nothing the best but does everything pretty good. and its cheap.

combos might not be the same as the stand alone stones. the ceraxes are known for this for example. the 4k kit/bester is good. still like the 4k glass better though. its much more versatile somehow.


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## ModRQC (Jul 9, 2021)

This kind of things I find important. 

Thanks for all really.


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## ModRQC (Aug 1, 2021)

BTW not to revive the thread exactly nor that I find myself so interesting but circumstances had me buy this with a tremendous deal and where to post some pics of the brand new thing but here?


















Gotta admit that pics of width and height are almost confounding. It’s a brick alright. I know reports are 50/50. But for 50 CAD who cares. I still have a lot of other stones discussed here and elsewhere in carts waiting for me to make up my damn mind.


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