# No luck with Edgepro knock-off



## JoshNZ (Jan 14, 2016)

Hi Guys,

I'm not new to sharpening, freehand or with a jig but am new to the edge pro kit, or in this case the knock-off which I opted to try first. A little disappointed with the quality overall but never mind, IMO it mechanically mimics what the EP Apex will do, with a little less finesse. My question here is regarding the stones, how much of a difference could they make?

I have a few of the edge pro stones in the mail so I guess I'll figure this out for myself eventually but, I decided to have a go on the stones that came with it. It seems to me like they should work, I'm getting good swarf and can see it removing material, a detectable burr on the opposite side after each set of passes, a nice even clean looking bevel at the end. But after going all the way to the last stone, the knife is simply not sharp. It literally comes up better after a couple of minutes on the bottom of a coffee mug.

So assuming my process was correct (and I've gotten shaving edges on knives with similar jigs), what could be the cause of the dull end result?

"The stones are just crap" isn't really a valid answer in my mind because, they are removing material, which is all stones do... So what's going on here? The knife isn't expensive, nor is it cheap, but since I can get it sharper on a ceramic mug I'm happy to rule out the knife too.

Any thoughts/advice appreciated!
Thanks in advance


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## psfred (Jan 14, 2016)

Lotta variables there, including sharpening angle, grit of the stones, and how high you are polishing the edge, to say nothing of the quality of the steel.

Take a look at the edge with decent magnification (20x or so) and let us know what you see.

Also take a look at the choil (heel, looking toward the point) and let us know how fat the knife is just behind the edge.

Hard to tell from the picture, but if that knife is sharpened at 20 degrees per side, it's a more than a bit fat behind the edge, and will wedge horribly. This makes it feel dull even if it's sharp.

You may also need to de-burr properly which can be a problem with jig type sharpening devices. 

Peter


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## Mrmnms (Jan 14, 2016)

You mention shaving edges on knives with similar jigs. Same knife? What about the jig? Some of the knock offs I've seem were almost impossible to maintain a consistant angle with. For the kind of knife you're doing, the stones should not be impossible, but there are big upgrades available for Edgepros. Have you had the same problem with this knife freehand? I suspect Peter is correct regarding the need to de burr the knife. Some knives are a pita to remove burrs properly.


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## JoshNZ (Jan 14, 2016)

I was taking some photos for your reply peter, having had nothing to measure with I had the thought to upload the image to a CAD program I have and measure the angle. Was at about 27 degrees :scratched:

Made up a cardboard wedge for 20 degrees with some trig and fixed it. Standby...

When I was a young feller living at home I made a jig actually, fixed a rod to dads diamond stone and made a guide up mounted to the bench. It worked beautifully, could get any knife I got my hands on sharp enough to shave with in a matter of 10 minutes or so, and that was with a single coarse grit diamond stone. Used to throw mums dish sponge in the air and slice it in half mid flight for my friends. Mum was never as impressed as they were :eyebrow:

Mrm I do have the edge pro stones in the mail but they are international shipping so will be a while away yet. Looking forward to trying them too.

Let me get back to you guys with the results of the 20º bevel.


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## JoshNZ (Jan 14, 2016)

Well its still not that impressive. Cuts a sheet of paper if you hold it right but it doesn't pass the test in my opinion...

I don't think there is a burr left, there is nothing detectable on either side and I have a pretty good feel for it, I can feel after each pass on the fine 800 stone.

The grits are 180, 400, 800, 1500. Don't have a magnifying glass for a close up pic but I'd say there are fine scratches left.

I measured just behind the top of the bevel, maybe 1/8" and its barely half a mm thick. I don't think its a wedging action I'm seeing, its not grabby at arm hair, can't feel anything stroking a finger across it etc...


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## chinacats (Jan 14, 2016)

sorry, duplicate post


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## chinacats (Jan 14, 2016)

I think you may not be hitting the edge...try some marker?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 14, 2016)

How stable and rigid is your Edge Pro knockoff? I think I remember reading that some of the knockoffs were so poorly constructed that they flexed under use. If yours is like that, there may be just enough flex to round off your edge.


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## psfred (Jan 14, 2016)

Do you see any shiny spots on the edge? If you do, you have a burr on there. Stainless, depending on the actual metal composition, can develop a foil edge that is very difficult to remove, and will fold over and make the otherwise sharp edge blunt. I've had it happen a couple times on cheap knives, drove me nuts until I found a way to get rid of it.

0.5 mm isn't hugely fat, but it's not exactly super thin, either, although probably pretty typical for a run of the mill stainless knive (since you have not told us what it is, I'm assuming a stainless steel knife of unknown composition).

Unless you have not actually apexed the edge (and I suspect you have), you only have a couple choices for a problem:

Dubbed over edge from flex or a bad stone (or too much pressure)

Foil edge breaking off, leaving a dull knife

Too thick behind the edge (which should not be the case at 0.020" or so)

Stones not capable of producing the edge you want.

You might try stropping the blade on some leather if you have any handy, if not, black print newspaper is abrasive enough to help, so is clean cardboard. A few light passes on each side may make a big difference. If you have it, some green chromium oxide paste on something hard (smooth wood for instance) can also make a big difference. You may have a poor finish at the edge from the sideways motion of the stones at 1500 grit, and stropping will straighten things out. So will light use of a smooth steel, for that matter.

Peter


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## JoshNZ (Jan 14, 2016)

chinacats said:


> I think you may not be hitting the edge...try some marker?



Definitely covered the whole bevel. And an unmissable burr is formed after each pass. Confirmed with the marker earlier.



> Pensacola Tiger
> How stable and rigid is your Edge Pro knockoff? I think I remember reading that some of the knockoffs were so poorly constructed that they flexed under use. If yours is like that, there may be just enough flex to round off your edge.



It isn't the best you're right. The worst of the flex is between the suction cups and the legs though. There is no noticeable flex between the post and the bed so I don't think the angle is changing.



> psfred
> Do you see any shiny spots on the edge? If you do, you have a burr on there. Stainless, depending on the actual metal composition, can develop a foil edge that is very difficult to remove, and will fold over and make the otherwise sharp edge blunt. I've had it happen a couple times on cheap knives, drove me nuts until I found a way to get rid of it.
> 
> 0.5 mm isn't hugely fat, but it's not exactly super thin, either, although probably pretty typical for a run of the mill stainless knive (since you have not told us what it is, I'm assuming a stainless steel knife of unknown composition).
> ...



Sorry, re the knife, this is all I have on it





No shiny spots that I can see... I stropped the blade on a leather belt, didn't make much of a difference. I did just give it a few minutes on a steel and it has improved it quite a bit, I guess that means I have a small burr left. It will shave now, not like a razor blade but it makes a bald spot.

Once you have shaped your bevel with the 180 then, what is your process for the 400, 800, and 1500? How many strokes per side etc and when do you change stones?


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## GeneH (Jan 18, 2016)

JoshNZ said:


> Once you have shaped your bevel with the 180 then, what is your process for the 400, 800, and 1500? How many strokes per side etc and when do you change stones?



When I had the EP knockoff, for each stone I would get a burr, then using very gentle (like just the weight of the stone, don't push down at all) pulling strokes work the burr off, flipping the blade every time I formed a burr on the down side. Eventually it is ground off, then move to the next stone.

If you use any down pressure on the push stroke you risk changing the angle. Also, the blade edge must be the same distance out from the platform as you move from the heel to the tip otherwise you are changing the angle on overlapping strokes.

Use a black marker on the edge when you switch stones - they are not always exactly the same thickness and will hit the edge at a different angle.


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Jan 18, 2016)

Ignoring the theft of intellectual property side of buying a knock-off, I think you have set yourself up for frustration. Even the original EP has faults wrt play in the mechanism, which EP aficionados have dealt with through modification. God only knows what angular shenanigans are going on with this rig. And the OEM EP stones won't solve anything because they cut like a marshmallow. If you're going to buy stones save your money for Shaptons or 3M diamond films on glass blanks.

Where in NZ are you? I have a Kiwi friend who may be able to sort this with you. PM me your email and I will see if he's interested.

Cheers,

Rick


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