# Over polishing?



## brianleepy (Jul 17, 2014)

Hi all

I am new to this forum and would like to ask a question.

I sharpened my 240mm carbonext with a king 1200 followed by an imanishi 4000.

After the king I did the thumb nail drag test and the edge was "sticky" all the way to the tip.
I proceeded to polish the edge on my imanishi.

After I finished I did the paper and leg hair test (for some reason I got no arm hair at all >_<)
Knife push cuts paper/magazine paper and even receipt paper cleanly.

But when I did the thumb drag test it didn't "stick" at all.
I then tried the 3 finger test and could put lots of pressure and not feel scared at all.

Did I over polish the edge?

TL/DR: Knife push cuts receipt paper cleanly but doesn't stick when thumbnail drag test is done. Did I over polish the edge?


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## rami_m (Jul 17, 2014)

I am a beginner, so take this with a grain of salt. 

I don't think so. You should try and get a burr on each grit. The burr should be smaller the higher grit you go. You likely rounded the edge. 

Make sure you use the same angle as the earlier stone.


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## brianleepy (Jul 17, 2014)

rami_m said:


> I am a beginner, so take this with a grain of salt.
> 
> I don't think so. You should try and get a burr on each grit. The burr should be smaller the higher grit you go. You likely rounded the edge.
> 
> Make sure you use the same angle as the earlier stone.



That's what I thought at first. But it cuts paper/magazine/receipt paper cleanly. I don't think a rounded edge could cut paper...or could it?!??


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## rami_m (Jul 17, 2014)

Well I think it can. You don't remove a lot of steel at 4k, do you. People advised me to get a burr at that grit. 

The grain of salt rule still applies. Give it a shot


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## Chuckles (Jul 17, 2014)

How does it perform cutting food?

Does it skate on tomatoes?


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## brianleepy (Jul 17, 2014)

Chuckles said:


> How does it perform cutting food?
> 
> Does it skate on tomatoes?



Sadly no tomatoes in da house...

I tried the plastic pen test with a sharpie just now. It stuck at about the degree i sharpened it on.


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## JBroida (Jul 17, 2014)

probably not over polished... more likely rounded over or inconsistent angle of sharpening


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## Ruso (Jul 17, 2014)

Sometimes I wonder the same, but I usually come to the conclusion that it's not. Something went wrong on 4K stone. Also I would not stress myself on getting feelable burr on 4K. The idea is remove/minimize it, not creating it again. 
It will depend on the steel as well, but I believe carbonext alloy should be able to hold 4K easy (no personal experience with it though). And, what Chuckles says. If it cuts food the way you like = good job on stones.


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## brianleepy (Jul 17, 2014)

So...it's actually possible to round an edge and still cut receipt paper with the knife?

This is what's bugging me. I read that a rounded edge will never cut receipt paper let alone cleanly cut it.


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## JBroida (Jul 17, 2014)

yeah... its also possible to have a huge burr and cut paper and/or shave


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## brianleepy (Jul 17, 2014)

JBroida said:


> yeah... its also possible to have a huge burr and cut paper and/or shave



Well looks like it's back to the stones..

Thank you so much
Have a nice day/night


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## rami_m (Jul 17, 2014)

Tell us how you went.


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## James (Jul 17, 2014)

sounds like edge rounding


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## osakajoe (Jul 17, 2014)

James said:


> sounds like edge rounding



+ 1


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## rami_m (Jul 17, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Sometimes I wonder the same, but I usually come to the conclusion that it's not. Something went wrong on 4K stone. Also I would not stress myself on getting feelable burr on 4K. The idea is remove/minimize it, not creating it again.
> It will depend on the steel as well, but I believe carbonext alloy should be able to hold 4K easy (no personal experience with it though). And, what Chuckles says. If it cuts food the way you like = good job on stones.



Ok, I am getting conflicting information here. On high grits people tell me to get a burr which should be smaller the higher you go. I see Jon testing for burrs all through his progression or I am wrong here?


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## JBroida (Jul 17, 2014)

thats correct... really, not necessary past the coarse work, but it can be a helpful guide, and quite frankly is easier for many people. The burrs you make on finishing stones will be smaller, but they are still there usually. I say usually because i've had some people ask me about burr-less sharpening recently. its kind of a misnomer, as you need to initially create some kind of burr (though it may not be exactly the same as what i teach). Anyways, the gist of it is that you remove fatigued metal by flattening the edge out, and then work your way back to an apex as you move through your progression. I just tend to prefer and teach the way i do because the burr is a helpful guide as you progress in sharpening, and removal isnt that difficult as long as you have a grasp of some very basic sharpening concepts.


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## CutFingers (Jul 18, 2014)

Make sure you are hitting the cutting edge when sharpening, or all you doing is slowly thinning the blade at the 1200 grit level. An easy test to find the cutting edge is to wrap the stone in newsprint. Practice stropping it. When the paper starts to tear that can give you a pretty good indicator of where the bevel is in relation to the cutting edge. Also you may find that a quick strop on newsprint, brings the micro teeth of the edge into greater concentration and you get an OMG feeling when cutting paper or shaving hairs.


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## rami_m (Jul 18, 2014)

Just so I make sure I got it right 
It raise a burr flip raise a burr 
Go to higher grit 
Do the same but you will get a smaller burr. 

At the end deburr/ strop.


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## JBroida (Jul 18, 2014)

rami_m said:


> Just so I make sure I got it right
> It raise a burr flip raise a burr
> Go to higher grit
> Do the same but you will get a smaller burr.
> ...



pretty much, but if just worry about flipping the burr, you will likely have steering issues down the road


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## rami_m (Jul 18, 2014)

JBroida said:


> pretty much, but if just worry about flipping the burr, you will likely have steering issues down the road



What else should I look at/ consider? I try to keep angle consistent. What else.


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## brianleepy (Jul 18, 2014)

Whew, I took the extra time to make sure my angles were correct.

Outcome: 
Thumb drag test: Knife sticks more
Magazine test : It seems to be a bit louder. As smooth as before though


I guess the best test is to go get some tomatoes XD

I know that when doing to tomato test I should be looking at how effortless the knife cuts in.
Is there anything else I should be looking for?


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## JBroida (Jul 18, 2014)

grip/tactile feedback (but dont get that confused with tearing at the food)


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## rami_m (Jul 18, 2014)

JBroida said:


> grip/tactile feedback (but dont get that confused with tearing at the food)



Sorry to repeat my question but what do I look for other than burr formation? I really don't want my knives to steer.


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## JBroida (Jul 18, 2014)

pay attention to edge symmetry/asymmetry (i.e. bevel construction and general knife geometry)... i plan to make a video that addresses this at some point soon


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## panda (Jul 18, 2014)

you're over thinking it, go cut actual food, not paper!


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## osakajoe (Jul 18, 2014)

rami_m said:


> What else should I look at/ consider? I try to keep angle consistent. What else.



Make sure your stones are flat.


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## rami_m (Jul 18, 2014)

osakajoe said:


> Make sure your stones are flat.



Each session or once every couple of sessions?


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## JBroida (Jul 18, 2014)

depends on how you use your stone and how quickly it dishes... on softer stones that dish more quickly, you will have to flatten more often. If you can use the stone more evenly across the surface, you may be able to get away with a bit less flattening.


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## Mangelwurzel (Jul 18, 2014)

When I was new to sharpening (well, I still am really), I had problems with rounding my edge on my polishing stone (6K). This thread has some good stuff in it: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...rpness-question-from-a-newbie-tomato-problems

What really worked for me was to slow things down (I know after watching Jon's videos there is a real temptation to sharpen at the same pace as he does!), and concentrate on trying to maintain the same angle. Also as you go up your progression I've found using lighter and lighter pressure gives better results (using too much pressure on a polishing stone will round your edge). 

As regards trying to raise a fresh burr on each stone in the progression, I posted a similar question a while back here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...u-raise-a-new-burr-with-your-polishing-stones

I think the key is: do whatever works best for you. I certainly found that focusing on burr reduction/removal with using lighter pressure gave me better results. When I was trying to raise a fresh burr on my polishing stone, I was using too much pressure and ended up with rounded edges.


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## Sambal (Jul 18, 2014)

JBroida said:


> pretty much, but if just worry about flipping the burr, you will likely have steering issues down the road




Can you please elaborate Jon?
Thanks.


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## JBroida (Jul 18, 2014)

yeah... i am always surprised at things people do after i explain stuff to them... this was one of those cases. I had a customer who would sharpen one side of the knife long enough to get a burr (which took some time on his knife). Then he would filp it over and sharpen again, but the burr would come more quickly on the second side, and he would stop as soon as he felt it. After time, his knife started steering to the left, as the right side of his blade had a much larger bevel than his left, and was creating more pressure as he cut on that side of the knife. Dont make that mistake was the gist of my statement.


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## Lizzardborn (Jul 18, 2014)

JBroida said:


> Then he would filp it over and sharpen again, but the burr would come more quickly on the second side, and he would stop as soon as he felt it.



Isn't this what you have to do if you want to convert your knife from 50/50 to 70/30 - and is there any point in doing that?


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## JBroida (Jul 18, 2014)

yes and no respectively... i swear i'm going to make a video on this subject soon.


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## rami_m (Jul 18, 2014)

JBroida said:


> yes and no respectively... i swear i'm going to make a video on this subject soon.



But we need to know now, our babies are in danger


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## Ruso (Jul 18, 2014)

rami_m said:


> But we need to know now, our babies are in danger



Pulling a "Think of the children" card, how cheap, eh!  :doublethumbsup:


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## JBroida (Jul 18, 2014)

maybe i can host a live discussion series next week, where we can do some Q&A's or something


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## rami_m (Jul 18, 2014)

That would be great. I think i make the same mistake as your customer. Good I caught it early. I just need to work out how to determine the 70/30 bit. Do I look at the bevel relative sizes? What % should I go for?


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## dough (Jul 19, 2014)

i just want to say this reminds me of a really old conversation with KCMA. Jon has such a pragmatic, honest, experienced yet humbled way of describing things.
kcma obviously wasnt exactly jon and kc didnt care about steering but removing fatigued metal is important and there is no such thing as over polishing imo over polishing has to mean you rounded the edge. other things like leaving a wire edge or not getting a consistent burr to remove all the fatigued metal are under polishing imo.

Getting a burr on every stone means every stone does its job in turn you didnt round the edge nor leave weak metal. i must admit meeting the types of edges that some of these guys are used to is very humbling.


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## harlock0083 (Jul 19, 2014)

JBroida said:


> maybe i can host a live discussion series next week, where we can do some Q&A's or something



On twitch.tv?


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## JBroida (Jul 19, 2014)

on youtube... its easy to live stream and run a Q&A from there


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## Dave Martell (Jul 19, 2014)

JBroida said:


> yes and no respectively... i swear i'm going to make a video on this subject soon.




DO IT!


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## eynlai (Aug 8, 2014)

Newbie here to the forum, but been keeping sharp edges for awhile. And I'm also a straight razor shaver for about 4 months now. I started off with DMT Fine/Extra Fine and sharpening rod for my Shun, then added a Norton 4000/8000 comb and a Naniwa 12,000 for my straight razors. I picked up a Wusthof Precision Chef from Williams-Sonoma (probably equal to a IKon, just rebranded) last week. I used it a few times and notice it's "factory sharp", but not smooth like my Shun. This may NOT apply, perhaps not even recommended for kitchen knives, but straight razor shaving has spoiled me.

I looked at my new Wusthof under a 40X jeweler loupe and can see all of the rough burrs on there from the factory. I just broke out my Norton 4000/8000 stone and polished away. It didn't polish out as much as my Shun, but it's a lot better. I also touched up my Shun since the stone was already wet. Both passed grape tomato test with minimal effort, but both didn't pass the "catch the thumb pad" test.

By the way, I've also cut a lime and it 'glass' through it.

I'm guessing there's 2 types of sharp: smooth sharp, and biting sharp (more rough burrs?). I choose smooth sharp.

Nothing beats the beauty of that mirror like sliver of a bevel after it's been polished well.


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## DeepCSweede (Aug 8, 2014)

Dave Martell said:


> DO IT!



I am guessing Dave needs a refresher after being out of the game so long. Either that or he will have to go back and watch one of his own videos. :laughat:


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## psfred (Aug 13, 2014)

A burr raised on a fine or very fine stone is going to be quite small unless you rolled the edge over. I don't look for one, I just watch the bevel and when it is polished to the point I expect for that stone I deburr and move on. The objective is to obtain a nearly perfect flat pair of planes that intersect at the apex of the blade with no burr or distortions. It will never be perfect, but the closer you get the better off you are. 

Usability is a separate issue. A very very smooth and sharp knife can cut less "sharp" on many substances, and most people I know prefer a less super sharp blade for general kitchen work to cut things like tomatoes and carrots or onions that have a fibrous nature or a "skin" that a slightly sawtooth blade will slice better than a super smooth blade will cut. Matching the tool to the work. 

There are times where super sharp is better, but not for general meat or vegetable work. 

One thing I had trouble with when I started sharpening knives freehand was rolling the edge into the finer stones. I've cured myself to a large extend of that bad habit, along with having learned to lighten up a lot, but if in doubt it's is possible to use honing strokes rather than cutting strokes to polish on finer stones. Much less tendency for a beginner to shove the edge into the stone that way. You can still roll it over if you lift the knife, though, and make sure you use LIGHT pressure since you should not be removing much metal at that stage.

Best way to learn, I think, it to get some cheap knives at flea markets or yard sales and see what you can do with them. That way you won't damage a good knife before you get the hang of sharpening.

Peter


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