# Guide to knife makers?



## Xunzi (Jul 20, 2022)

Newbie in this hobby and find the amount of knife makers, from manufacturers, blacksmiths and artisans, to be somewhat disorienting. Let alone being able to gauge which are better than others.

Is there a guide? Something along the lines of categories, tiers, etc?


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## sansho (Jul 20, 2022)

i kind of don't think this exists.

it took me about a year of reading KKF to get familiar with what's out there.

i think it would be funny to see people make tier lists of all commonly discussed makers, lol.


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## Nemo (Jul 21, 2022)

Dude,

The whole forum is a guide


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## tostadas (Jul 21, 2022)

There's always something that's better than what you have. However, the heirarchy is not linear. Think more like a rock-paper-scissors.


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## Xunzi (Jul 21, 2022)

Nemo said:


> Dude,
> 
> The whole forum is a guide



I was looking for a more of succinct version.


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## Xunzi (Jul 21, 2022)

tostadas said:


> There's always something that's better than what you have. However, the heirarchy is not linear. Think more like a rock-paper-scissors.



I’m not so much looking to identify the best maker, as it would be great to get an overview of the different types, tiers etc. Some sort of simplified catalogue.


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## McMan (Jul 21, 2022)

Nemo said:


> Dude,
> 
> The whole forum is a guide


Exactly this 

Just dive in and follow your interests. New interests will pop up. The amount of information on the forum is impressive, as is the number of people sharing knowledge.


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## toddnmd (Jul 21, 2022)

I don’t think something like that exists, or is possible. This whole journey is very subjective and personal, and there is nothing universal. The simpler the guide, the more explanation of preference and nuance required. So it just CAN’T be brief AND universally applicable. 
There are quite a few good knives available for $200 or less. Go up to $300 and there are quite a few more. 
Consider yourself fortunate if you can be happy with those offerings. Going up higher becomes very personal, no two people (let alone 5, 10, 100, etc.) are going to come close to agreeing at that point. 
Welcome, and enjoy/embrace the journey!


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## Xunzi (Jul 21, 2022)

Thanks - and to clarify - with tiers I don’t necessarily refer to poor/better/best but budget could be a tier. And even if no tiers at all some sort of list by category, say “German mass manufacturers”, “Japanese small-scale blacksmiths” or something along those lines - would be helpful just to get a map of the landscape before diving into the jungle…


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## rob (Jul 21, 2022)

Might be helpful to check out some of the retailers. 
They tend to carry lines of high quality popular knives in all price ranges.
Eg.
Knives and Stones
Japanese Knife Imports
Carbon Knife Company
The Home Butcher
Pro Tooling
District Cutlery
Knifewear

etc..


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## mc2442 (Jul 21, 2022)

I agree with others that this would be so subjective with the view of any particular knife knut that could not be applied universally. WH vs laser, 210mm vs. 250mm +. Carbon vs stainless. Easy to sharpen vs difficult. Edge retention, etc. I like the idea, but the deeper you dive, the greater potential for complexity.


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## sansho (Jul 21, 2022)

in the beginning, it was quite hard.

my original strategy: when i saw an unfamiliar name enough times, i'd spend like 10-60 minutes reading about him and looking at pics of his work. once i was superficially familiar with enough of them, i started understanding the conversations here a lot better, but it was hard with similar names like takeda, takada, tanaka. sometimes i'd get them mixed up.


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## Xunzi (Jul 21, 2022)

I think I shot myself in the foot by mentioning “better than others” which seemed to imply “tell me who’s the best!” Understand this is very subjective.

I’m really more looking for a list of knife makers broken down by some taxonomy, but I understand this really doesn’t exist so I guess I will develop this understanding over time.


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## Nemo (Jul 21, 2022)

Xunzi said:


> I’m really more looking for a list of knife makers broken down by some taxonomy, but I understand this really doesn’t exist so I guess I will develop this understanding over time.


There are certainly characteristics that are seen in knives from particular regions of Japan.

For example, Sakai knives are mostly shorter than the listed length due to a long machi gap. Sanjo knives are typically tapered (thinner near the tip than at the heel)...


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Jul 21, 2022)

Xunzi said:


> I think I shot myself in the foot by mentioning “better than others” which seemed to imply “tell me who’s the best!” Understand this is very subjective.
> 
> I’m really more looking for a list of knife makers broken down by some taxonomy, but I understand this really doesn’t exist so I guess I will develop this understanding over time.


Some makers from Japan make blades that later sold under a bunch of different brands. Some retailers ask makers for customisations while other retailers just sell what's available. Most western custom makers make knives start to finish by themselves, while in Japan it's common to split different tasks between different people. 

Personally I like advice that suggest looking at what retailers has to offer. That would give you some idea of what's available and popular at the moment. There are also highly praised custom knife makers from UK that you might want to check if you want to support locals.


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## Bensbites (Jul 21, 2022)

As someone who started down this hobby as a home cook/user and now makes sharp pointy things on the side.

My first advice is to get a cheap carbon steel tojiro or dao and learn how to sharpen. This will let you use your new knives to their fullest potential. While you are learning , take time to absorb what people like. 

It’s even better to make friends with local knife nerds and try their equipment. 

At the $100 and above level, some things are definite, many are subjective. 

For example, I like a wa handle and forward balanced blade. 

I can use and maintain carbon, but I prefer stainless. 

I value the grind and a minimally decent Ht way more than the steel.


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## daveb (Jul 21, 2022)

The simple enough for me guide:

Knives from Sanjo are good. Esp Yoshikane.
Knives from Sakai are average to good.
Knives from Tosa are rust experiments.

Prepare to pay 250 - 350 for your first "good" knife. There are less expensive alternatives available and of course you can spend all you want. But buy one good knife and see what you like about it and what you might want different. Repeat until you're broke and / or your SO leaves you.


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## salparadise (Jul 21, 2022)

I think this would be a perfect crowd-sourced database project if a handful of resources could be assembled. Start with a list of makers and a few of the most useful data points to filter by (price, business type, location, etc). Each entry might have a dozen or so fields that revealed when the maker is selected. You’d need a web-database guy (who wouldn’t need to be a knife guy), and a team of content editors/managers who have access to add and edit data which could be submitted by forum members. The decision of how much subjective vs. objective data to include would need to be made judiciously, of course. It wouldn’t need to include every person or company who has ever produced a knife in order to be extremely useful; as long as most of the ones discussed in the forum are included it would still be an amazing resource.


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## Delat (Jul 21, 2022)

There’s a few threads that might help OP out.






Knives that make you go WHOA from the first cut!!


I have gone through a few knives now and as I have refined what I like in a knife there have been a few that from the first cut make me go whoa Just like this So far in order of Whoa (for me) they have been Toyama 240 Stainless clad Kagekiyo 270 W#1 Denka AS 210 My first 240 Yoshikane SKD -...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









Best pure cutter


I’m curious as to other experiences with the best preforming knives they’ve ever used. Obviously, as some of you will point out, best is a relative term. But I’m curious to peoples favorite performers. Have you ever tried anything that was amazing across the board? Personally, I’ve found where...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





There’s another one or two about best knife under $300 or something like that, but I couldn’t find it.


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## timebard (Jul 21, 2022)

Great threads @Delat, the one you're thinking of is What's your favorite 240mm Gyuto under $300

Bigger picture, one of the problems with some kind of definitive guide to "the best knives for $X" is that as soon as a given knife is crowned "the best" at a price point in an authoritative way, it tends to sell out, have it's price bumped up, or both.


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## McMan (Jul 21, 2022)

salparadise said:


> I think this would be a perfect crowd-sourced database project if a handful of resources could be assembled. Start with a list of makers and a few of the most useful data points to filter by (price, business type, location, etc). Each entry might have a dozen or so fields that revealed when the maker is selected. You’d need a web-database guy (who wouldn’t need to be a knife guy), and a team of content editors/managers who have access to add and edit data which could be submitted by forum members. The decision of how much subjective vs. objective data to include would need to be made judiciously, of course. It wouldn’t need to include every person or company who has ever produced a knife in order to be extremely useful; as long as most of the ones discussed in the forum are included it would still be an amazing resource.


A solution in need of a problem...


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## Deluxe68 (Oct 29, 2022)

I would like to see classifications such as lists of artisans who blend and create their own steel. A list of machine made knife brands, as well as a list of knife brands hand made and hand hammered.


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## Delat (Oct 29, 2022)

Deluxe68 said:


> A list of machine made knife brands


Anything from macy’s, crate and barrel, williams sonoma, target or any other mass market retailer.



Deluxe68 said:


> hand hammered.



This is a largely meaningless distinction (i.e. it doesn’t make a difference in the final product and in general people don’t really care). But your best approach there is to find a maker you’re interested in and then find out if he does stock removal or forging to shape.


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## blokey (Oct 29, 2022)

Deluxe68 said:


> I would like to see classifications such as lists of artisans who blend and create their own steel. A list of machine made knife brands, as well as a list of knife brands hand made and hand hammered.


"lists of artisans who blend and create their own steel", that would actually be a interesting bunch, either $10 mixed recycled steel or $1000 wootz, not much inbetween. Nobuyah might be only one I can afford. Xerxes, Mert Tansu and some others make their own steel, usually over $1000.



Deluxe68 said:


> A list of machine made knife brands, as well as a list of knife brands hand made and hand hammered.


How you define machine tho? Almost every artisan use spring hammer and many stamp their blade to shape after initial forging. Some maker like Ryusen employ lots of machine bur also practice alot of hand forging, their knives are better than many "handmade". There's also the case of PM steels that can actually suffer from forging and really should be stock removed.


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## Deluxe68 (Oct 29, 2022)

blokey said:


> "lists of artisans who blend and create their own steel", that would actually be a interesting bunch, either $10 mixed recycled steel or $1000 wootz, not much inbetween. Nobuyah might be only one I can afford. Xerxes, Mert Tansu and some others make their own steel, usually over $1000.
> 
> 
> How you define machine tho? Almost every artisan use spring hammer and many stamp their blade to shape after initial forging. Some maker like Ryusen employ lots of machine bur also practice alot of hand forging, their knives are better than many "handmade". There's also the case of PM steels that can actually suffer from forging and really should be stock removed.


Machine made, by that I mean an automated assembly line where machines do all of the work.


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## Deluxe68 (Oct 29, 2022)

Delat said:


> Anything from macy’s, crate and barrel, williams sonoma, target or any other mass market retailer.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a largely meaningless distinction (i.e. it doesn’t make a difference in the final product and in general people don’t really care). But your best approach there is to find a maker you’re interested in and then find out if he does stock removal or forging to shape.


If it does not make a difference in the final product then why are there still some knife/sword makers who create their own steel?


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 29, 2022)

Deluxe68 said:


> If it does not make a difference in the final product then why are there still some knife/sword makers who create their own steel?


Not only does it not make any difference. At best hand-made steels are as good as their modern industrially made equivalents. They are still made for purposes of aesthetics and tradition.


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## Delat (Oct 29, 2022)

Deluxe68 said:


> If it does not make a difference in the final product then why are there still some knife/sword makers who create their own steel?



This an entirely different question than your original one which I was answering, which was “hand hammered” vs stock removal. “Hand hammered” has nothing to do with a decision of whether or not create your own steel.

Is it possible you’re conflating forging to shape and forge welding, vs tamahagane/wootz - aka taking raw iron ore and turning it into steel?


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## blokey (Oct 29, 2022)

Deluxe68 said:


> If it does not make a difference in the final product then why are there still some knife/sword makers who create their own steel?


For sword making is more of a cultural activity, since swords are already more of a cultural symbol in modern times.
The fully automated stuff tho you are only going to see them on large brand like Zwilling, Wusthof or some giant Yangjiang factory, automations are super expensive. Most Japanese knives you saw here are small operation or even just a single guy in his shed.


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## Deluxe68 (Oct 29, 2022)

Delat said:


> This an entirely different question than your original one which I was answering, which was “hand hammered” vs stock removal. “Hand hammered” has nothing to do with a decision of whether or not create your own steel.
> 
> Is it possible you’re conflating forging to shape and forge welding, vs tamahagane/wootz - aka taking raw iron ore and turning it into steel?


Taking raw iron ore and turning it to steel is what I was referring to, sorry for the inept explanation. There was a you-tube video of a guy doing it but the video did not provide the guys name.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 29, 2022)

blokey said:


> "lists of artisans who blend and create their own steel", that would actually be a interesting bunch, either $10 mixed recycled steel or $1000 wootz, not much inbetween. Nobuyah might be only one I can afford. Xerxes, Mert Tansu and some others make their own steel, usually over $1000.
> 
> 
> How you define machine tho? Almost every artisan use spring hammer and many stamp their blade to shape after initial forging. Some maker like Ryusen employ lots of machine bur also practice alot of hand forging, their knives are better than many "handmade". There's also the case of PM steels that can actually suffer from forging and really should be stock removed.



I _think_ Daniel Cauble makes wootz for his knives. I know he smelts and he makes knives, just not sure what the marriage of the two are.

He's here on the forum as @DanielC. His work, especially his hand polishing, is gorgeous.






Home, Caublestone Cutlery


It all begins at the Forge Most of my work is in constant inspiration of the many craftsmen of Japan.




caublestonecutlery.com


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 29, 2022)

Deluxe68 said:


> Machine made, by that I mean an automated assembly line where machines do all of the work.



Most of the high volume Japanese houses will have a good bit of human interaction, especially for sharpening and final finishing.

Akifusa, Tsunehisa, etc. are good examples. And make no mistake, they make a good product. Even Yaxell and Suncraft have a fair bit of hand work.


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## Delat (Oct 29, 2022)

Deluxe68 said:


> Taking raw iron ore and turning it to steel is what I was referring to, sorry for the inept explanation. There was a you-tube video of a guy doing it but the video did not provide the guys name.



The guys who do it really do it for fun or tradition. The resulting steel is inferior to what they could get from a steel mill. It shouldn’t be surprising really, comparing one guy with a hammer and an oven to a modern steel mill with millions of dollars worth of equipment designed to make high quality steel, combined with decades of experience.

I wouldn’t mind owning a wootz / tamahagane knife, but it would be purely out of appreciation for the work, tradition, and craftsmanship. I suspect any $100 knife from white #1 or other mass-produced steel would probably have better quality metal.


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## DanielC (Oct 29, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I _think_ Daniel Cauble makes wootz for his knives. I know he smelts and he makes knives, just not sure what the marriage of the two are.
> 
> He's here on the forum as @DanielC. His work, especially his hand polishing, is gorgeous.
> 
> ...


I do indeed make my own wootz from beginning to end. 

Thanks for the share 



Delat said:


> The guys who do it really do it for fun or tradition. The resulting steel is inferior to what they could get from a steel mill. It shouldn’t be surprising really, comparing one guy with a hammer and an oven to a modern steel mill with millions of dollars worth of equipment designed to make high quality steel, combined with decades of experience.
> 
> I wouldn’t mind owning a wootz / tamahagane knife, but it would be purely out of appreciation for the work, tradition, and craftsmanship. I suspect any $100 knife from white #1 or other mass-produced steel would probably have better quality metal.



For the most part, fun and tradition. Sense of accomplishment. Being able to make works of art that are out of reach from most other smith's on the planet...


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