# Watanabe knives?



## MadMel

Hi, as you all know, the quest for more and nicer knives to add to the collection never stops and so here I was browsing through the web looking for stuff. And I came across plenty of custom knives including Devin, Burke, Shigis etc but it seems like there are not so many people with Watanabes out there. Is it because they are inferior in some ways? Or is he just getting less exposure?

I don't mind if you guys turn this thread into a thread discussing the pros and cons of various custom knife makers out there. I quite hope that will happen actually lol


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## mikemac

Watanabe's PRO lineup are darn fine knives - if you want to find inumerable comments, just expand your search using earlier start dates. Almost every 'old dog' on the three forums has had Watanabe knives at some time, and has probably reviewed then very favorably. BAck when I started on these forums (I think thats close to9 -10 years ago...?) there were 3 artisinal craftsmen...Carter, Takeda & Watanabe. I felt like Watanabe was the "IT" knife until people discovered you could get the ebony handle on the Takeda without having to pay the extra $15 or $25.

His standard knives are pretty nice too, with the trade off being rustic for value. I wouldn't mind owning a standard shiro uchi santuko in 210mm - I'm just not sure he would make it at the value price point. 

Apparently the multi piece set is thought to be outsourced....

For all the good things Watanabe is, a few things that (IMHO) Watanabe _is not..._

His knives are not lasers - you will never mistake a Watanabe for a Tadatsuna. Doesn't seem to effect performance, if 'cutting' is how you measure performance.
He's not willing to do whatever YOU want, just to call it a 'custom'. If he thinks your request is for a knife thats too thin, or the wrong profile, or the wrong steel, or not up his ally, he will probably try to talk his way out of making it. 

At the end of the day - seems like a cool guy, makes really good knives, and you have to love his little indicator that sometimes reports he's "hellishly busy"


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## MadMel

mikemac said:


> He's not willing to do whatever YOU want, just to call it a 'custom'. If he thinks your request is for a knife thats too thin, or the wrong profile, or the wrong steel, or not up his ally, he will probably try to talk his way out of making it.
> 
> At the end of the day - seems like a cool guy, makes really good knives, and you have to love his little indicator that sometimes reports he's "hellishly busy"


 
Haha seems kinda like a chef, no?

I don't know how 'performance' is measured and it may be different for everyone but for me, getting and staying sharp are the main points I look for in a knife.

How about value for money? How does his knives hold up to any of the other customs, be they Western or Japanese?


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## apicius9

I think Mike's summary is very good. Maybe you need to be aware that Watanabe's cladding is very reactive, so they patina very fast. That said, I think everybody should have at least one of his knives. I have loved everyone I have seen from him, still could kick myself that I traded one of his 330 sujis for something else a few years ago. The gyutos are definitely not lasers but they are great all-round knives with an excellent geometry. I especially like the wa garasukis (have one myself) and the honesukis he makes. His standard kuro uchi nakiri and santoku are also very good (and thin) knives IMHO, but they are clearly more pedestrian than everything coming from the pro line. I have less experience with his single beveled knives, only have one 240 takohiki from him, but I seem to remember that Dave thinks highly of them after having sharpened quite a few. 

Stefan


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## rulesnut

I think Watanabe makes horrible knives. Anybody who owns them should replace them with something else. 
I am quite willing to be a repository for this rubbish.
Of special interest are: (in no particular order)
120mm Petty,150mm Petty, and any length Mukimono, Yanagi, Fuguhiki, or Kiritsuke. 
If you own any of these drawer queens, please contact me immeditately for price negotiations.


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## WildBoar

Dang it -- you guys have me spending time on Watanabe's web site now

:angry3:


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## Dave Martell

apicius9 said:


> I have less experience with his single beveled knives, only have one 240 takohiki from him, but I seem to remember that Dave thinks highly of them after having sharpened quite a few.




I do, I think that his single bevels are fantastic knives, I'm reminded about this every time I handle one.


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## Rottman

And Watanabe takes his Pro knives to the harder side, you don't find blue with HRC 64-65 very often. The cladding is a PITA though, it stinks.


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## MadMel

Rottman said:


> And Watanabe takes his Pro knives to the harder side, you don't find blue with HRC 64-65 very often. The cladding is a PITA though, it stinks.


 
Would he do stainless cladding at a customer's request? Would any knife maker do that at all?


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## Potato42

I have 3 Watanabe knives. One is an excellent 150mm KU petty with a beautiful spalted hickory handle from Stefan, one is a cute little Akijiri, and one is a 270mm white steel Yanagi with the most stunning, awesome, ridiculous looking spalted wood handle you've ever seen. It's a beauty. Dave has had it in his hands a couple times.







I absolutely love them all. I probably don't talk about them much because in this group it feels like we've all talked about Watanabe plenty before. He makes some of the best knives period, but don't we all already own one and know this ourselves? Obviously there are some guys out there who have yet to behold the awesomeness that is a Watanabe blade, and for that the only solution is to get one yourself.


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## Rottman

MadMel said:


> Would he do stainless cladding at a customer's request? Would any knife maker do that at all?


IDK but I remember something about stainless cladding only on short knives under 180-200 mm.


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## Potato42

Hey anyone know what happened to the "special" 150mm KU finish petty knives he used to make? I can't find them anymore. That knife was a bargain and a half. He has a sweet looking "Kurouchi kintaroame yanagi knife" for sale now. The KU finish on it doesn't look as nice as I'm used to seeing though.


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## Lefty

This, right here is why I love these forums!
A newer (very active) member brings up an old dog who is still doing his thing and what do you want to bet, Watanabe gets a few sales this week? And rightfully so, from all I've read!
I first became intrigued by Watanabe knives a while back, but have still yet to pull the trigger on one.
They seem great!


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## Lefty

Ok, I just looked/ am looking at the Watanabe site, and those garasukis have a beautiful profile! A thinner double bevel version would be my everyday, if I could make it happen!
Thanks Pierre!


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## Mattias504

I used to have a Watanabe gyuto that I regretably sold to friend of mine. I had no complaints about it except maybe the cladding was too reactive. I forced a patina on it and it was never a problem again. His gyuto is pretty much the prototypical awesome mighty type.


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## rulesnut

Potato42 said:


> Hey anyone know what happened to the "special" 150mm KU finish petty knives he used to make? I can't find them anymore. That knife was a bargain and a half. He has a sweet looking "Kurouchi kintaroame yanagi knife" for sale now. The KU finish on it doesn't look as nice as I'm used to seeing though.


 
http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/petite.htm


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## Lefty

Yeah, his knives really have some appeal!
Madmel, I saw on the site (forgot to take note of where), that you CAN get stainless clad from Watanabe. The Santoku runs about US$200.


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## apicius9

I, aaeehh, slightly modified mine...





Uploaded with ImageShack.us






Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Potato42

Potato42 said:


> Hey anyone know what happened to the "special" 150mm KU finish petty knives he used to make? I can't find them anymore. That knife was a bargain and a half. He has a sweet looking "Kurouchi kintaroame yanagi knife" for sale now. The KU finish on it doesn't look as nice as I'm used to seeing though.


 


rulesnut said:


> http://www.watanabeblade.com/english/pro/petite.htm


 
You found it! Man I can't believe he's still selling them for $120. This knife surprises me every time I pick it up. The KU finish is sooooo nice and smooth on it too. He should have a 180mm gyuto that's pretty much a bigger version of this knife. It's also nice. They are quite thin in comparison to his Pro line gyuto's.


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## Mattias504

I used to have one of those pettys and it was incredible. I might get another one...


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## Lefty

Now THAT is one sexy beast, Stefan!
Details, por favor!


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## Potato42

Mattias504 said:


> I used to have one of those pettys and it was incredible. I might get another one...


 
Isn't it? I hadn't used mine in quite a while because I'm usually using something bigger. I was looking at my knives and said oh what the hell and grabbed the petty, and whoa! I was thinking it needed a fresh edge put on it, but it sliced right through everything I aimed it at. Tall as it is, it seemed like a slightly bigger knife too. Love it.


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## apicius9

Lefty said:


> Now THAT is one sexy beast, Stefan!
> Details, por favor!


 
The top one is a 270 gyuto with a spalted maple burl handle - strange perspective, makes the knife look shorter than it is. The second one is a 180mm white steel garasuki, Honduran rosewood handle. I like the beefier handles on them because they are on the heavier side compared to some of the anaemic ones that get discussed here, and the handle with the thicker butt helps the balance a bit. 

Stefan


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## Kentucky Jeff

I currently own four of his knives and would love to own a 210mm Miroshi Deba from Shinichi. But money is tight right now and by the time I stick a Stefan handle on the thing its five C notes...

My 240 proline Gyuto was my first Watanabe knife and for some reason he only makes this blade in Blue #2. Its one of the most used blades in my collection and as everyone has said--while not a laser--its no slouch and it takes as fine an edge as Dave Martell can give a knife. (Which is saying something) 

I have a 180 Deba with a Stefan made ironwood/streaked blond buffalo horn handle that is to die for. Its also a very unusual blade in that the tang and top of the knife are warped in quite an obvious manner yet the blade geometry remains perfect--the back side lies flat as a pancake on the stones. To me that's just representative of kasumi single bevels and it presents no defect in cutting or sharpening. Its just kinda-twisted!

I own a 300 Yanagi and a 240 Yanagi and they are both as good as anything Shigefusa ever made and I own a Shig 300 Yanagi!

In any case, Watanabe makes great knives--and you can actually get them for a reasonable price in a reasonable wait time (like 4-6 weeks) as opposed to some makers where the wait time is over a year and you'll pay nearly double.


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## Lefty

apicius9 said:


> The top one is a 270 gyuto with a spalted maple burl handle - strange perspective, makes the knife look shorter than it is. The second one is a 180mm white steel garasuki, Honduran rosewood handle. I like the beefier handles on them because they are on the heavier side compared to some of the anaemic ones that get discussed here, and the handle with the thicker butt helps the balance a bit.
> 
> Stefan



That garasuki makes me really wish I had my custom in!!! Haha
Great stuff. The gyuto is a beaut too - especially the handle!


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## Craig

I can also vouch for the awesomeness of the pro petty. I just took mine to the stones last night, so it's dangerous to just look at it at the moment.

Probably the hardest knife I've ever sharpened. It took a bit longer to develop a burr than my Takeda Nakiri did.


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## Mattias504

Sean - I know, man. That knife is awesome because it is pretty much a compressed down version of his gyuto. The KU was beautiful and the handle was awesome. More of a mini-gyuto than a petty.

Jeff - Is the Watanabe yanagi thin like a Shigefusa?


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## Marko Tsourkan

No, Watanabe yanagi is a bit thicker and finish even on his damascus knives is a level below Shigefusa. 

My impression of Watanabe has been mixed. I used to be a huge fan but cooled over time, mostly because of inconsistency in custom orders and some hints I got that Watanabe are OEM. 

The last group buy that I put together had a number of knives that came thicker than promised and there were some grinding issues. 

Generally, his gyuto, honesuki/garasuki and yanagi are the popular ones. 

M


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## bishamon

I've had good experience with Watanabe over the last 4 years. I have about a dozen of his knives, mostly traditional styles. As for OEM, maybe the standard line, but not the Pro line. All the orders I've made were obviously done just for me. At this point (I've gone through at least 100 J-knives) I could pretty much do with only Watanabe and Konosuke knives now. Here are some of the more interesting knives I've gotten to give an idea of the variety of styles he does: 





kintaroame yanagi




Big kujira


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## chazmtb

Dave Martell said:


> I do, I think that his single bevels are fantastic knives, I'm reminded about this every time I handle one.


 





One of the most beautiful knives I have ever seen period, including Shigefusa's Kitaeji. This knife is flawless.


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## chazmtb

Potato42 said:


> I have 3 Watanabe knives. One is an excellent 150mm KU petty with a beautiful spalted hickory handle from Stefan, one is a cute little Akijiri, and one is a 270mm white steel Yanagi with the most stunning, awesome, ridiculous looking spalted wood handle you've ever seen. It's a beauty. Dave has had it in his hands a couple times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I absolutely love them all. I probably don't talk about them much because in this group it feels like we've all talked about Watanabe plenty before. He makes some of the best knives period, but don't we all already own one and know this ourselves? Obviously there are some guys out there who have yet to behold the awesomeness that is a Watanabe blade, and for that the only solution is to get one yourself.



Sean, I am so envious of that handle. It was stunning when Stefan first unveiled it, and it continues to be stunning.


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## Potato42

Thanks Bao. Yeah you know as little as I use this knife, It's still one of my top 3 I couldn't bear to part with no matter what. It was also the first "Artisan made" knife I bought and my 3rd "real" knife purchase. I really need to find some stuff to make that will have me using this fine slicer more often.


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## rulesnut




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## Kentucky Jeff

Mattias504 said:


> Jeff - Is the Watanabe yanagi thin like a Shigefusa?



In truth--there isn't a nickle worth of PRACTICAL difference between my Shig 300 Yanagi and my Watanabe. Certainly there are asthetic differences. To say one is thinner or better finished is truly a very anecdotal and subjective observation as individual knives will vary in tiny degrees but individual tastes and experience with these knives also is quite unique.. Some people will disagree and that's fine--its what makes the world go round. But in terms of thinness--no, my Watanabe is just ground a little differently from the Shig. I bet if I put my micrometer to each knife they wouldn't vary more than a half millimeter in width at any given point. They both are thin enough and will give you paper thin cuts on any fish you care to slice. The Shig is beautifully finished and so are all my Watanabe pro-line knives. They aren't finished the same--but different. I will say that the Watanabe finish is warmer and gives more of an artisan feel to the blade while the Shig is very clean, crisp and cold. Is one better than the other? That's like saying Van Gogh is better than Michelangelo. 

My experience sharpening the Shig vs. the Watanabe was that the Shig needed a LOT more work to flatten the blade road than the Watanabe which took very little stoning to get it perfectly flat. But that's again very anecdotal. Dave Martell could probably give a better opinion on that as he has sharpened at least dozens examples of each blade.


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## Marko Tsourkan

If you want to know which knife is thinner, you weigh similar length knives from different smiths. I will bet that most Shigefusa knives will be lighter. I have compared a few and I did take tang length into account.

Another thing to compare, is how straight the knife is. Bring the spine up your eye level and look. Check your Watanabe and Shigefusa and all your knives for that matter.

As for fit and finish, some makers will go above and beyond and some will do just what is adequate. It has nothing to do with style, it's more a philosophy - what makes a complete product in their opinion.

I don't want to come across as too zealous and self-serving, but having seen knives from many makers, Japanese and American, it makes me really appreciate Shigefusa so much more. I am sorry to say that Watanabe is just another decent maker, not more no less, and I mean no disrespect. There are many makers like him in Japan.

Take my opinion for what it is - a lonely voice of dissent in a sea of praise. 


M


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## watercrawl

My 240mm Watanabe pro series gyuto is still one of the best all around I have. Now, Dave M. Worked the knife over with a slight thinning and put a Stefan handle with the nicest black ash Burl I've ever laid eyes on so it's not really fair to say it's anything like a standard version.


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## chazmtb

Marko, I have to disagree. Like Shigefusa, he and his family are an inclusive shop. I would say that his standard pro line is not up to Shigefusa's quality in terms of fit and finish, but the more custom creations, like the Kintaru Ame blue line is just as nicely fit and finished, and I give the back grind a little better nod to Watanabe. This is a direct comparison from the Watanabe with the Koa handle above and the 300 wide blade kitaeji you have in your possession.


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## Marko Tsourkan

You said it Adam, you knife needed thinning, and so was mine honyaki that I bought from Lee. Mine also wasn't straight. 

Bao, KA knives were highest prices knives, so you would expect a better fit and finish. You would also expect a round choil and spine. 

I never said Watanabe knives cut worse than Shigefusa, or sharpen worse. At the same time I can't say that Watanabe is better than Konosuke. In fact, I find Konosuke Fujiyama line finish is slightly better than Watanabe Pro finish. I guess, when I look at a knife, I tried to understand what the makers envision as a finished product. Sometimes I think people cut corners. 

I think it is fair to present the information as is - with all cons and pros. This helps the buyer to make an educated decision. 

At worse, we agree to disagree.  Maybe you see something I don't see. And again, I don't mean disrespect. 

M


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## chazmtb

I agree M.

Although Watanabe's pro knives used to not cost so much, and at the price point, in 2007-2008, it was a bargain. Now, not so much. I think Watanabe does too much, in too many shapes, styles, function. He does hunters, sickles, and all others, which may not be his core strength. I see that if he focuses, this knives can be superb, but at a different cost and price point. He's got a family to feed, so whatever the customer orders, he obliges. Shigefusa on the other hand, focuses on things that he does well, and does very well.


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## MadMel

Wow.. Didn't expect such a deluge of information overnight. Pray continue with the comments and feel free to throw in information on any other custom makers besides Watanabe. I just put him in as a reference point for myself. I'd love to hear more about the experiences you guys have with different smiths just to broaden my knowledge.


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## Potato42

I think there is a lot of truth in everything said here. While I love the knives I have, there are surely knives I would look elsewhere for before purchasing from Watanabe. A good example for me is his Chukabocho which weighs in at a hefty 610g, while I prefer something in the 450g range. He does tend to give you more steel for your money. If you don't like "mighty" knives, then you should probably be looking elsewhere. Even the petty I like so much is not a laser. It cuts like one, but compared to most other petty knives it is certainly "mighty".

His KU finished knives are by far the smoothest and cleanest looking I have seen. I have read that some people think his pro line knives have a better finish than the KU, but to me they are about the same. You have to compare to similar knives from other smiths, and on that basis I think he does a phenomenal job. As for F&F for the Kasumi and Kintarouame knives, I'm not going there:tongue2:

He does seem to have issues with inconsistency sometimes. The patterns he makes often seem to be executed very well, but custom orders and some of his experimental stuff seem to have more of a variance. You can see it even at his site with certain knives he offers. Right now he has a bunch of petty knives with wrapped handles and no two are the same. That could very well have been on purpose.

In the end I'm happy with what I've got, and I hope all of the rest of you with his knives are too.


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## mikemac

I think it helps the discussion a bit if 'we' step back and re-think how 'we' categorize these different craftsmen...I've always grouped Watanabe, Takeda , Carter, and Moritaka as artisans in the tradition of the village smith. Not sure if you can find it, but MC used to have a video that discussed the role of the village smith, and walked you thru his shop. Back then, and now, makers like Shigefusa, Doi, Hattori (KD's) and Nenohi were percieved to be at an enitirely different level, and they certainly produced a knife more sought after and pricier.
Is one better than the other? _That is *not* for me to say_. They are just different, and personally I think they are all pretty dang awesome in their own right. (well, the ones I've been able to afford at least....)

I just think it is a dis-service to everyone when we loosely lump Takeda and Kramer, or Carter's SFGZ and Carter's IP under the same heading of 'custom knives'

Back to Watanabe - I think he has always pushed his offerings 'upstream' from the village smith mold, he's always had a pretty cool & eclectic lineup, those sweet looking damascus 'pocket' knives as well as the kurouchi bear hunters, and you usually get some kind of neat little gift with your order.

Sinichi is cool...I hope he gets hellishly busy again.


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## MadMel

Good point about not lumping each and every custom maker as just custom makers. So in that line, who will you consider custom _kitchen_ knife makers and who are the village smiths/artisans? And what are the differences between them and their products?
Also, you said that shigis, doi etc are _perceived_ to be at an entirely different level. What kind of level do you mean? Is it in terms of the functionality of the knives that were produced? Or is it the looks and such? Or is it just the perceived value of the end products.


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## Mattias504

If you've never handled a Shigefusa, they are pretty much perfect. Its crazy to think they are made by hand but then when you think about it you realize that no machine would ever be capable of producing such an amazing knife. I have owned 2 shigefusa and both were damascus. Totally flawless and my Shige yanagi is one of my most used and favorite knives. I would imagine that a knife made by Keijiro Doi is on par with this level of work. Some makers strive for absolute perfection and it really shows in their knives.

On the "other end" of the spectrum, there are makers like Takeda, Watanabe, etc... These guys don't make every emphasis on fit and finish but they are all performance. In this case, the difference isn't so much a difference of performance but more fit, finish, grind, etc... All of the knives mentioned are excellent but each in different ways


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## mikemac

MadMel said:


> .... Also, you said that shigis, doi etc are _perceived_ to be at an entirely different level. What kind of level do you mean? Is it in terms of the functionality of the knives that were produced? Or is it the looks and such? Or is it just the perceived value of the end products.



Functionality? No. If we walked away from the knife world with only a 1k/6k combo stone and sharpening skillz, we could drop in on friends, sharpen up their mama's Sabatier, help prep a nice meal, have a few cold ones, and enjoy our friends and family. Is that time diminished because we used a old Sabatier instead of some "IT" J-knife? GAWD, I hope not. So not functionality.

It is the perceived value - but then hopw do you define value - and it is OUR perception...we are the 1%'ers of the cutlery world. Why are we willing to pay 4x - 10x for an elite name, wait 12-24 months, and jump thru various other hoops...Why?

For fun, tell your mom to take $500 down to the post office, buy an IPO, send it to Japan, then sit back and wait for 6 months for a package. Mom will probably make you your favorite meal, and suggest you take a nap - actually a good idea right now.

I don't know all, or most of the answers to "why" , but I do know that one of the answers is that we..WE are KnifeKnuts

word!


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## Potato42

mikemac said:


> word!


:word:


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## MadMel

Haha.. That's THE reason isn't it?
I've never handled any customs much less a shigifusa, and I've been thinking about owning one. Hence this thread. So far, we have all been talking about the Japanese smiths. How about the Western guys? How do they compare?


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## mikemac

I wish I knew...
The guys who get 'props' usually get them for good reason


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## JMC076

Cool thread guys, good to see Shinici gettin some love again. 

My first hand made J-knife was a 240 white yanagi by Shini, when i got it i just looked at it for what seemed hours. Ive not used it very often being a home cook, but when i have i just marvel at its ease of cutting and colours of its patina. Great little slicer. May be time for a nice new handle (and ive gotta say his stock ho-wood handles are very nice).

Then i got a KU 240 gyuto, man that thing is a beast, heavy and thick with a killer edge. No probs with reactivity for mine like the kasumi versions. It just smashes whateva i throw on the board. My better half is scared of that thing, every time i dry it off with the towell she looks at me a little strange, i must have a glint in my eye or something....she wont go near it its so big and heavy.

Ive spent hrs trawling his website over the past couple of yrs, would love to get some more offerings but want to diversify with other makers. Maybe one day i guess... 

Great knives and easy to deal with both times, wouldnt hesitate recommending.

Josh


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## AnxiousCowboy

Guess this thread is an appropriate place for me to announce I just bought a 105mm paring and mioroshi deba. Can't wait. My knife set now is two masamotos and a suisin. Anxious to add some more white steel...


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## stevenStefano

Anyone ever bought an engraved knife from Watanabe? They look incredible.


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