# Second knife purchase. Why does everyone use Gyuto? Custom made not as good?



## jstark (May 25, 2017)

LOCATION
*USA (Austin, Texas)*

KNIFE TYPE
*Chef*

Are you right or left handed?
*Right*

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
*No preference*

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
*8-10"*

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
*No*

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
*Less than $200, however I'm thinking of buying a Weige knives (Austin Local) chef knife for about $600 in the future unless someone convinces me otherwise.*

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
*Home*

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
*slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, occasionally cutting meat.* 

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
*I have a Zwilling J.A. Henckels Twin Four Star 7-Piece Block Set (The forged set)*

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
*Pinch. * 

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
*Push-cut, Rock, slice. *

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
*I would like something that is going to be very sharp, I'm not scared of maintenance and I'm looking forward to learning to sharpen my knives. I'm mainly interested in performance and not so much visual appeal. I'm not worried about handle shape or weight. I'm not sure about blade shape, since I mainly use it for prepping vegetables I'm not sure if a blade with or without a belly is better, I could use some opinions on that. *


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
*I'm buying a new end grain wood block. Currently it's plastic. *


Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
*Not yet. *

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
*Yes, any advice on the very basics and an affordable way to start would be greatly appreciated. *

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
*Yes*. 


So, why does everyone on here seem to only talk about Japanese knives? Are you guys using the word "Gyuto" to mean Chef knife? I was a bit confused about those two things. I don't have a preference personally. 

Also, I read somewhere that custom made knives (Like the Weige that I'm looking at) often - Not always - are not as good as a production knife, is that true? It sounded like nonsense to me.


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## bkultra (May 25, 2017)

Welcome to the forums. Gyuto does infact refer to a Japanese chef knife. Custom made knives can range from terrible to terrific, no different than production knives.


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## milkbaby (May 25, 2017)

The gyuto is the Japanese interpretation of a western chef's knife heavily influenced by the traditional French style chef's knife. It is double beveled unlike a lot of traditional Japanese cutlery for food prep. Nowadays, the influence had come back to the western world as higher quality and custom western kitchen knife makers have adopted the higher hardness of Japanese knives as well as the narrower more acute angle the edge bevel is sharpened at. 

In general, I would expect an expensive custom knife to have better fit and finish, basically more attention paid to how nice it looks and other details. I'd expect them to at least match if not be better than any mass produced factory knives. But it's possible to get a custom kitchen knife that's not good for your intended uses or style of use in the kitchen.


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## foody518 (May 25, 2017)

I haven't seen enough of Weige Knives to have a good impression of the grind, but I think they are among the better of the Texas makers. I'm a little worried they run a bit thicker behind the edge than probably what is the typical preference of those who frequent this forum. There are certainly custom makers who are putting out thick thick stuff that doesn't prove effective in kitchen knife usage.


You should have a really clear and strong idea of what you want out of the knife if you are gonna drop $600 on a custom made knife.

There are gyutos in the $200 range that will blow your current knives out of the water


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## Marek07 (May 26, 2017)

foody518 said:


> You should have a really clear and strong idea of what you want out of the knife if you are gonna drop $600 on a custom made knife.
> 
> There are gyutos in the $200 range that will blow your current knives out of the water


*This!* Both points very sage. Going with a $200 gyuto first would be my :2cents:


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## MastrAndre (May 26, 2017)

It needs a lot of experience to can order a proper custom. Before you should try a lot, a big lot of Knives.

If you have the chance, participate to PA's, or get 500$ in your hands and play catch&release...

Everybody of us is looking for the holy knife Gral, and nobody really have a chance to catch ist...

Otherwise...if you can't sharpen it yet, don't need to buy it yet...

Even a simple shun would be an incredible gain to your cutting experience at this moment...

Buy wise! [emoji6]


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## Chicagohawkie (May 26, 2017)

Do your reasearch before buying a custom blade. Ask a lot of questions and try a few cheap blades before droping a lotta cash.


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## natto (May 26, 2017)

Learn to sharpen first. Then enjoy your success! This is the best improvement you can get in your kitchen. Next buy a lot of knives and enjoy! welcome to the forums


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## malexthekid (May 26, 2017)

while everyone here is giving good advice. I will say that you don't necessarily have to have a wealth of experience to buy a custom. Remember, most custom makers have their own grinds, geometry and profile they do. Yes some may do something completely to your spec, but then a lot don't as that is where they get their name from.

So if you want to go that route, just do your research first, find a custom maker that has a good reputation for making kitchen knives (note I said kitchen knives, as they are very different from hunting knives etc.).

Or do as others have said, play around with the reputable japanese brands and try different styles


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## Bromo33333 (May 26, 2017)

"Less than $200, however I'm thinking of buying a Weige knives (Austin Local) chef knife for about $600 in the future unless someone convinces me otherwise."

I can recommend the Misono line of Gyutos - I have the carbon steel one (Gyuto 9.5") and couldn't be happier, though their stainless steel ones are probably pretty good, too. [Link: Misono Carbon Steel Gyuto]

If you want the custom knife, by all means! There is something special about stuff like that, but just be sure that it's a knife you are going to like and want ot use. 

I cam from a Zwilling knife set, too. I found the transition to Japanese style knives to be very accommodating, and actually with the better performance many tasks became a ton easier.

(I also own Yaxell Dragon knives - use an American steel, forged in Japan - and splits the difference between Japanese and German knives for heft. Wickedly sharp, strength is a rocking cut for the 8", 10" is more versatile)


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## StonedEdge (May 26, 2017)

Let me throw in the Itinomonn StainLess Kasumi Gyuto from Japanese Natural Stones. Semi-stainless core (develops a patina but doesn't rust as quickly as true high carbon steel) under stainless cladding. Takes and holds an edge like most carbons, extremely easy to maintain and especially if paying in USD the price is outrageously low (sub-200). The out of the box edge is one of the best I've seen, it ships ready to go and is very thin behind the edge but not a brittle knife that needs to be babied by any means. 

Misono does make good western gyutos, I especially like their Swedish carbon steel series. Their fit and finish won't leave you disappointed.


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## jstark (May 26, 2017)

You guys are awesome. 

From what I'm understanding it's probably best for me to learn to sharpen my current knives, upgrade to something a step up (I'm guessing that means -/+ $100) Get better at caring for it and realizing what is important in a knife to me before jumping in with both feet. 

If you have a recommendation for a knife to start with to start learning what's important and how to care for it, I would appreciate it. I'm going to continue to search the forums and read. The recommendation I've read the most is the Tojiro DP. But I would have no problem spending more if the value proposition is worth it.


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## valgard (May 26, 2017)

Tanaka B2 KU is a good place to learn, it has a lot of ingredients. Good steel, carbon so you learn to care for it, good cutter, wide bevel that you can play with.


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## fatboylim (May 26, 2017)

Mostly mentioned already, sub $200 options: Tanaka blue 2, itinomonn semi stainless, munetoshi white 2 all have decent reviews and all have different grinds and profiles. (also talk to Jon at JKI, he has helped many a person enter properly into Japanese knives!) 

Also, best to learn sharpening on a cheaper knife before going custom. Nothing worse than ruining an expensive knife. Or, worse still not sharpening a custom knife for fear of ruining it... it will become an expensive blunt knife over time...


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## foody518 (May 26, 2017)

The new Gesshin stainless gyuto wa handle looks good too
Itinomonn Kasumi V2 is a great buy


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## jstark (May 26, 2017)

From the recommendations, I think I'm leaning toward the Tanaka Blue 2. Or possibly the Tojiro DP as a more beginner friendly, and budget friendly option. Can anyone elaborate to me why one is technically a better knife? I understand the Tanaka is made from Blue 2 steel, while the Tojiro is VG10 clad with stainless. From my limited knowledge I only know that means less maintenance with the Tojiro. I'm also wondering if the Tojiro is enough of a step up from my current knives to warrant buying it over the Tanaka. From my understanding the set I currently have is as nice as Henkel makes them (Blade wise).


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## foody518 (May 26, 2017)

2 types of recommendations being made - those that will be amazing upon arrival and those that will use some TLC to really shine


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## panda (May 27, 2017)

yes, custom made not as good. theyre more about looks and name recognition than anything else.


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## mc2442 (May 27, 2017)

I would offer the warning of not trying to learn on cheap knives, go at least the Tojiro route. Trying to sharpen truly cheap knives is just setting yourself up for frustration. Don't go overboard, but I would not worry too much about the first knife to learn sharpening as long as you do your research you should not damage a knife that badly, though I would not spend big money on a knife until you get some practice. Tojiros will probably lend themselves to a bit heavier and thicker than you might drift to, I would check out a couple of the Gesshin lines at JKI (Japanese Knife Imports) or give them a call to walk you thru the selection, though some of the other suggestions should be great as well.


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## OliverNuther (May 28, 2017)

jstark said:


> From the recommendations, I think I'm leaning toward the Tanaka Blue 2. Or possibly the Tojiro DP as a more beginner friendly, and budget friendly option. Can anyone elaborate to me why one is technically a better knife? I understand the Tanaka is made from Blue 2 steel, while the Tojiro is VG10 clad with stainless. From my limited knowledge I only know that means less maintenance with the Tojiro. I'm also wondering if the Tojiro is enough of a step up from my current knives to warrant buying it over the Tanaka. From my understanding the set I currently have is as nice as Henkel makes them (Blade wise).



If it's any help my first J knife was a Tojiro (HSPS not the DP). I used it for a while and liked it. I then bought a Tanaka Blue 2. They're totally different knives, stainless vs carbon, different geometry, I like the wide bevels and kurouchi finish on the Tanaka. Since buying it I've not used the Tojiro;in fact I've given it to my daughter. And as a general comment, after using carbon I don't think I'll go back to stainless at all. I prefer the way carbon sharpens and it just feels lighter and more nimble. If you're looking for "different" from what you're currently using I'd say skip the Tojiro and go straight to the Tanaka. I think you'd just find the Tojiro to be a thinner sharper version of what you're currently using. James at K & S has some excellent Tanakas


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## scott.livesey (May 29, 2017)

I like the idea of going local. talk to the maker. ask if you can visit and handle some of the knives he has made. the beauty of getting a local custom made knife is having the handle shape, blade balance, and blade shape to your specs. 
to learn basic sharpening skills, get an inexpensive knife, $10 or less(https://hydestore.com/hyde-tools-50450-regular-square-point-knife-5-wood-handle.html) and a 6" Norton Crystolon coarse/fine economy stone, $15 or less. the full flat ground blade is 80CrV2 at Rc60-62, 0.06" at the spine, 0.025" 1/2" above the edge. will easily take an edge that shaves easily and can push cut tissue paper. these are one piece high carbon steel blades. 
once you have a very thin, very sharp knife, you may need to rethink how you use your knife. on items softer than a carrot, you are just guiding the blade and need very little force to get a clean cut. for cutting boards, I use HDPE for proteins and edge grain wood for everything else.


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## Benuser (May 29, 2017)

I like a Misono Swedish Carbon as a first knife to sharpen at your own. Nice F&F, traditional French profile, very nice in use. Not the hardest carbon steel, but great to learn sharpening basics: raising, chasing and removing a burr.
But it comes overly polished and convexed from factory with a rather weak edge, asking for immediate sharpening.


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## jstark (May 30, 2017)

Based off everything I have read here, it seems to make the most sense to learn sharpening first before I buy new knives. I've been watching the JKI videos and trying to figure out what to start with for sharpening. I'm probably going to post in the actual sharpening thread, but do any of you fellas have a recommendation for a stone to use on my current knives? A budget option would be nice, but if the nicer Japanese stones really make that much difference I'll invest in them. I found the King 1000/6000 for $30 shipped, but people don't seem to like that stone very much, should I go nicer than that? Everything else is twice the price. 
I feel like the survey for these threads should have a disclaimer at the top "do you know how to sharpen? If not, buy stones before nice knives". They should teach knife sharpening in school.


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## Ruso (May 30, 2017)

Norton IB8 oil combo stone. Very aggressive and fast. Perfect for creating burr and feeling for it. You can use water or soapy water with this stone or even use it dry. No need for actual honing oil. 
I thnik for the beginner is quite important to create and feel the burr. Also most knives will be very dull in your kitchen if you did not sharpen them before.
Pair the IB8 with a finer waterstone, like king 1000 - its a good learning stone because it is so cheap.
But any other 1000-3000 range will do.


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## dough (May 30, 2017)

jstark said:


> I feel like the survey for these threads should have a disclaimer at the top "do you know how to sharpen? If not, buy stones before nice knives". They should teach knife sharpening in school.



Haha I like your take away. Only thing I'll add to the stones thing is if i had to choose between nice knives and crappy stones or nice stones and crappy knives... I'd go with nice stones. I started on norton combo waterstones to "save money" then I went to king as an upgrade fast forward to now I got stones that cost hundreds of dollars. The norton and king can still give a great edge though and if I hadn't given them away to others starting their sharpening journey I'd be offering them to you.


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## foody518 (Jun 15, 2017)

Got to see a Weige knife at a shop today. The style is not up my alley for a kitchen knife - it's thicker than i like and thick behind the edge, looks like a large convexed belt edge more reminiscent of what you see on pocket and outdoor knives


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## Benuser (Jun 15, 2017)

jstark said:


> Based off everything I have read here, it seems to make the most sense to learn sharpening first before I buy new knives. I've been watching the JKI videos and trying to figure out what to start with for sharpening. I'm probably going to post in the actual sharpening thread, but do any of you fellas have a recommendation for a stone to use on my current knives? A budget option would be nice, but if the nicer Japanese stones really make that much difference I'll invest in them. I found the King 1000/6000 for $30 shipped, but people don't seem to like that stone very much, should I go nicer than that? Everything else is twice the price.
> I feel like the survey for these threads should have a disclaimer at the top "do you know how to sharpen? If not, buy stones before nice knives". They should teach knife sharpening in school.


Have a medium-coarse stone to start with. That's what you need for thinning behind the edge, and setting a bevel.
After that, any finer stone will do.


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## holdmyphone (Jun 15, 2017)

For what it's worth, I'll throw in another recommendation for a Tojiro DP. Japanese knives are fairly different from what you currently have and it's a nice inexpensive and forgiving way to get your feet wet. As your sharpening skills improve and you experiment with thinning the performance of your Tojiro will improve as well. You can always buy a fancier knife in the future 

The King combination 1000/6000 combination stones are a great place to start. You may want to go for the KDS version as it doesn't dish as fast. One last thing: Whatever you do don't buy them from Amazon, get it from a knife or woodworking supply seller. I've had several King stones arrive chipped and poorly packed from Amazon sellers.


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## ThEoRy (Jun 15, 2017)




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## StonedEdge (Jun 16, 2017)

To me the gyuto is the ultimate chef knife shape (generally speaking). How some people ignore gytuos, especially in favour of santokus I will never understand..


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## fatboylim (Jun 16, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> To me the gyuto is the ultimate chef knife shape (generally speaking). How some people ignore gytuos, especially in favour of santokus I will never understand..



Because Santoku is a better chopper and sized ideally for small prep jobs; hence they were specifically designed for home cooks. 

For pro chefs I agree that a long Gyuto is ideal with a petty for intricate work.


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## jstark (Jun 16, 2017)

Thanks guys. I ended up buying the 1k/6k king for $30 and I've been practicing with my current knives. I love it! Bringing your knives back to life is really great and I'm so glad I started down this path to maintain them correctly. I think I'm going to pick up a new knife in a a week or two, or maybe a more corse stone, like a 400. 

My girlfriend has several super cheap, what seam like dollar store knives. I've tried to sharpen them, and it doesn't seem to work well. Strange how cheap steel doesn't easily sharpen. It makes me want a high quality knife, so I can really see the difference when I sharpen and use it.


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## Nemo (Jun 16, 2017)

Cheap knives are hard to sharpen because the heat treatment is not optimized fot a cutting tool. The hardness is often low so they don't hold even an obtuse edge well. The grain size is large so they don't form a keen edge. Also, they are usually made of cheap stainless which forms large Cr carbides, which affects both sustainable edge angle and edge keeness.


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## Nemo (Jun 16, 2017)

I was thinking about your Qn about customs. The quality of a custom depends (like all knives) on the maker. I have some customs from Western makers (but in the Japanese style) which I love. They have a brilliant HT, beautiful fit and finish and very well thought out and executed profiles and grinds. Probably my favourite knives. I also have some very nice Japanese knives which I like a lot.

The upshot is, buy a knife from a reputable maker, Western or Japanese. Preferably from a reputable vendor who won't rip you off. Or directly from the maker.


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## ThEoRy (Jun 17, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Santoku is a better chopper



In what way is a santoku a better chopper than a gyuto?


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## panda (Jun 17, 2017)

because the blade height stays pretty much the same all the way across except at the very end. in a gyuto it gets progressively narrower from heel to tip. but in this regard, it's not necessarily better, but easier.


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## Gareth1 (Jun 17, 2017)

Just wanted to add re. sharpening. I got a couple of CCK cleavers two christmases ago - gift to self! - and then got a King 1200 and recently added a rika 5000 stone. I am really enjoying sharpening and touch up my cleavers every couple of days. I would love to save for a sujimoto or a custom moritaka, or.... but I figure until I am an A-class sharpener I am just wasting my money on an A-class knife because after the initial ootb edge needs sharpening my knifes performance is determined as much by my sharpening as the quality of the knife. The system is only as good as its weakest link and I feel like I can create some pretty good edges now but I am also pretty sure that I can get more out of my CCK's as my sharpening improves. The CCK's are great because they are very responsive to sharpening so they let you know how you are doing and are encouraging to work on.


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## foody518 (Jun 17, 2017)

Props to you for diving right in to sharpening! Definitely want a coarse stone for the cheap stainless stuff - they are thick behind the edge as well as quite abrasion resistant. Something like a 300-500 grit stone will save you so much time and lifetime on your medium stone


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## K813zra (Jun 17, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> In what way is a santoku a better chopper than a gyuto?




I find a santoku to have a flatter profile more conducive for chopping compared to something such as a 180-200mm gyuto. Beyond that, not so much. I prefer G&G anyway so for me the point is moot.


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## holdmyphone (Jun 17, 2017)

Santoku is a do-it-all knife for small workspaces great for home use, but the idea they are better at chopping than a gyuto I don't believe for a second. The flat spot on the heel side of even a lot of 210mm gyutos is practically as long as the total length of most santokus.


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## K813zra (Jun 17, 2017)

holdmyphone said:


> Santoku is a do-it-all knife for small workspaces great for home use, but the idea they are better at chopping than a gyuto I don't believe for a second. The flat spot on the heel side of even a lot of 210mm gyutos is practically as long as the total length of most santokus.



I don't think I own a single 210 with 165mm of flat so that seems to be a bit extreme of an example...Or I have a lot of very curvy 210's. I don't know.


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## Colorado_cutter (Jun 17, 2017)

If you want a long flat spot on a smaller knife, then I'd think a cleaver or nakiri would be good. I've got a 170mm Tojiro DP santoku (wife says she likes it) and a 175mm Seki Ryu cheapo cleaver. Now, admittedly, the Tojiro is pretty rounded and the Seki Ryu relatively flat, but there's a LOT more flat spot with the cleaver than the santoku.


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## fatboylim (Jun 18, 2017)

holdmyphone said:


> Santoku is a do-it-all knife for small workspaces great for home use, but the idea they are better at chopping than a gyuto I don't believe for a second. The flat spot on the heel side of even a lot of 210mm gyutos is practically as long as the total length of most santokus.



Well the flat spot is even longer on a 270mm Gyuto, no imagination required there. If we are talking comparable length then Santoku is easier for chopping...


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## Benuser (Jun 18, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Well the flat spot is even longer on a 270mm Gyuto, no imagination required there. If we are talking comparable length then Santoku is easier for chopping...



Rock-chopping you mean?
For forward slicing -- 'guillotine and glide' -- the tip is too low, just as for pulling. With santokus I have to sharpen for friends the tip is invariably damaged.


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## K813zra (Jun 18, 2017)

Benuser said:


> Rock-chopping you mean?
> For forward slicing -- 'guillotine and glide' -- the tip is too low, just as for pulling. With santokus I have to sharpen for friends the tip is invariably damaged.



Yeah, I run into damaged tips when I sharpen santokus for family as well. I do have a few santokus that work well with G&G but not a lot.


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 28, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Because Santoku is a better chopper and sized ideally for small prep jobs; hence they were specifically designed for home cooks.
> 
> For pro chefs I agree that a long Gyuto is ideal with a petty for intricate work.



I'm purely a home cook and can't stand the santoku. Or the nakiri, despite almost exclusively doing vegetable work (I mostly cook with ground meat; my wife does the meat trimming for the meals she cooks).


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## fatboylim (Jun 28, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> I'm purely a home cook and can't stand the santoku. Or the nakiri, despite almost exclusively doing vegetable work (I mostly cook with ground meat; my wife does the meat trimming for the meals she cooks).



Good on you and it's all "different horses for different courses" and a that. Does your personal preferences stop others from having theirs? There were some incredulous comments disregarding the uses of Santoku and Nakiri... it's just personal preference in my opinion. If anything, I am yet to find a knife shape that I couldn't use!


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 28, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> Good on you and it's all "different horses for different courses" and a that. Does your personal preferences stop others from having theirs? There were some incredulous comments disregarding the uses of Santoku and Nakiri... it's just personal preference in my opinion. If anything, I am yet to find a knife shape that I couldn't use!



No. Where did I say it did? I was reacting to your rather-sweeping statement that "santoku is better chopper and sized ideally for small prep jobs", which sounds a lot more like your personal preferences stopping others from having theirs than mine does, which strictly stated how I felt about the shapes in question.

Take a deep breath; I'm not saying you shouldn't use whatever knife you like. I'm answering the OP's question and was providing an alternative viewpoint to yours.


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## fatboylim (Jun 28, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> No. Where did I say it did? I was reacting to your rather-sweeping statement that "santoku is better chopper and sized ideally for small prep jobs", which sounds a lot more like your personal preferences stopping others from having theirs than mine does, which strictly stated how I felt about the shapes in question.
> 
> Take a deep breath; I'm not saying you shouldn't use whatever knife you like. I'm answering the OP's question and was providing an alternative viewpoint to yours.



Maybe look at my comment in context to the whole thread... There were about 5 other comments linked to the singular quote that was linked. You might find, I was reacting to a rather sweeping statement myself and made a reply in kind. 

If that was miscommunicated, then my bad.


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## JohnFallis (Jun 28, 2017)

Unless it's a passion project/high end custom knife I've found production to have better consistent quality, warranties and value. Same principle behind Henry Ford when he mass produced the automobile, same principle just applied to blades.


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## Ruso (Jun 28, 2017)

Gyuto > Santoku > Nakiri <--- Does it help? :nunchucks:


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## TheCaptain (Jun 28, 2017)

Nakiri's rule.

(insert grin here)


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## DamageInc (Jun 29, 2017)

Nakiris are fun for variation but not essential in any way.


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 29, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Nakiri's rule.
> 
> (insert grin here)



The problems I find with them are:

1) like a pen with the cap off (instead of on the non-writing end), they feel unbalanced in my hand
2) I dice a lot of poblanos, and even my 180mm nakiri isn't nearly long enough to cut the side pieces into strips

I should clean mine off and sell it, probably. Along with some others.


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## fatboylim (Jun 30, 2017)

I'm guessing not everyone is a cleaver fan too.


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