# Espresso Machine Recommendations Please



## Chuckles (Aug 12, 2020)

My wife and I are celebrating our 15th wedding anniversary this week. We are looking to gift ourselves an espresso machine for the occasion. I am beginning the search now and have been around here long enough to know the right answer is going to come from KKF. Budget tops out around $1500. That would have to cover the grinder too if it is separate. I don’t drink milk but my wife does occasionally go for a cappuccino. The focus is mostly on excellent crema. I know that my budget doesn’t enter the realm of many of the machines I have adored at some of my previous jobs. I am wondering what is out there that KKF members are using and enjoying and why.


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## Moooza (Aug 12, 2020)

For that price range, the Breville dual boiler is probably the best value, with money left over for some accessories.

Also, I don't like the taste of crema, it's just a sign of good extraction I think.

I love the Cafelat Robot at the moment. But obviously it's a completely manual machine with no milk frothing ability.

The Niche Zero grinder is pretty good too, but the wait time is a few months unless you can find local stock.


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## WildBoar (Aug 12, 2020)

Recommend sourcing a good used grinder on CraigsList, eBay, etc. A Mazzer or similar. This is more important than the espresso machine. For the machine, a Silvia with PID would be good for a few years (lots of used ones out there, too), until you can eventually spring for a solid double boiler. A used La Pavoni lever machine lever machine might be a good alternate.


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## Chuckles (Aug 13, 2020)

Thank you for the ideas. The Silvia looks like the front runner and first glance. Hadn’t thought to look for a used grinder that is a great idea! This seems like I am him going to have to dive in a bit to figure out. I am a little concerned about height after looking at pictures. I will have to measure counter to cabinet height tomorrow.

Thanks guys and keep the recommendations coming!!


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## Lars (Aug 13, 2020)

If you wan't lots of crema use fresh coffee..


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## MarcelNL (Aug 13, 2020)

Wildboar said it all, invest in a grinder, look for a second hand good pro quality burr grinder like Mazzer *Major, Super Jolly, Robur), Fiorenzato, Macap, Mahlkonig etc. bar grinders are usually built to last. 

Buy the best you can as the grinder is much more important than the machine, clean it, install new burrs and go look for an espresso machine. Used SIlvia w PID is a good tip,depending on your usage a vintage lever of some sorts might be a nice start and it should also not break the bank unless you go crazy and want a really rare sought after model.

Grinders pop up regularly for reasonable prices, do your research on list prices as sometimes prices on the net are insane (used Mazzer Major ; ask price over 1k)
BTW: at home the large hoppers don't make sense, mods are out there to use it without making fitting it under cabinets easier.

Freshly roasted coffee is your next mission, check if you favor Arabica beans or blends with Robusta (which produces lots of crema next to the burnt car tyre taste it usually comes with)


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## Luftmensch (Aug 13, 2020)

Congratulations for your 15th anniversary . Thats great! 

Good advice given so far. Particularly the advice to buy used. You can buy better quality for cheaper. If you buy used you might be able to find an Isomac, Vibiemme or Rocket at the right price.

These things can be robust - so if you do your homework, buying used is not so risky. I purchased a used Rocket Giotto for about 20% of the current equivalent. Albeit, it is 17 years old (or more) - the first model in its line. This was when commercial units were being 'domesticated'. Now the semi-commercial market is much bigger and the units are offering more features. My Rocket used to be in a mid-sized office of about ~100 people punching out coffees all day. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. A good machine can last indefinitely if you take care of it and keep it maintained (you should keep in mind you will want to either do that yourself or expect to pay for it on the odd occasion). Once in a blue moon you might have to replace a burnt out heating element or pump.

On the grinder, i would recommend stepless/micro adjustment. It is amazing how much little adjustment can change the flow rate through the group head. Also try and buy the biggest burr you can. It doesn't necessarily mean the coffee will be better. The machine will grind faster and be designed for high duty cycles. You may appreciate that if you have lots of guests over or want to grind volume for cold brew. The Rancilio Rocky is a pretty canonical entry-to-the-high-end home grinder (although it is stepped). In a similar price bracket I would preference the Mazzer Mini with its micro adjustments.

If coffee is an integral part of your daily rituals, you are spending your money well. Good coffee in the kitchen has made working from home pretty great.

Keep us updated!



Post note edit: I have tacitly assumed E61 group head machines. If you don't know what that standard is, it is the group head design that most semi-commercial and commercial machine are based on (sorry if you do know and I am over explaining). It is a big ecosystem, you are less likely to get vendor lock-in and will have more interoperable parts. I feel it also implies higher quality with correspondingly higher entry prices. While E61 would be my strong recommendation (and not Breville etc), I am sure there are other ecosystems that produce great coffee!


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## Bensbites (Aug 13, 2020)

One piece of advice I heard was to plan on spending half your budget or more on the grinder. One think you didn’t mention was fully orvssmi auto.
I would also look at the main range required on any machine before you cut it.


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## ma_sha1 (Aug 13, 2020)

I need an expresso machine too, just need a department store budet model, single serving size the smaller the better, but I want one with stainless steel boiler. Does anyone know what model has stainless boiler? I am trying to avoid aluminum.


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## lowercasebill (Aug 13, 2020)

I have had a silvia and rocky doserless grinder for years couldnt be happier
If you are in USA go to whole latte love. They got lots to choose from and they arr very helpful.


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## MoabDave (Aug 13, 2020)

Also recommend whole latte love. Also, coffeegeek.com is kind of the KKF of coffee. I haven't been on there for years, but it used to be super useful.


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## beneficialapricot (Aug 13, 2020)

Eureka mignon specialita + rancillio silvia. I have this grinder myself and love it, but I have a dual boiler since I make lots of milk drinks. If you don't, the silvia is an awesome option, especially if you can get one with a PID installed.


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## slickmamba (Aug 13, 2020)

I would get something with a PID. The silvia is solid, easily accessible PID upgrade, e61, nice wand and power, but has a single boiler. The breville dual boiler is solid, costco used to have it for 1000, bedbathbeyond has the coupon you can apply for it. You might be able to find a solid rocket or silvia already upgraded used on reddit or homebarista. 

As for grinder, the sette is pretty solid and will fit in your budget with a decent machine, but takes up alot of space. I personally use a hand grinder(kinu).


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## Jaszer13 (Aug 13, 2020)

Big congrats on the 15!

I will most likely get a lot of **** for this, but I use the Saeco PicoBaristo. I found it at the local HomeGoods for like $699. Usual retail is $1099. The Crema is more on the medium range, but I find that the more mileage I put on it the better it gets.

I brought it to my office to get more use out of it and about 10 co-workers started using it on a daily basis, so it has seen over 1K espresso cups in a year and it has worked flawlessly.

Hear me out though. Going with a "Super-automatic" machine in my opinion out weighs the minor quality difference between the hand pressed units. I had a Bezzera BZ10 before and I honestly just spent my mornings waiting for it to heat up (15 mins!), grinding the beans then cleaning that damn machine. 

Now, I can have a double espresso poured out in under 4 mins when the machine is cold and 2 mins when already hot. I enjoy the extra time I get in the mornings more than the "better" espresso I would get out of my Old Bezzera. Plus, I can easily brew up a cap as the milk carafe is removable and can be stored in the fridge.


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## Chuckles (Aug 13, 2020)

So something like this does seems very intriguing to me so far. I like the durability and robust build it seems to boast as compared to the Breville machine. 









Rancilio Silvia PID Espresso Machine


Take your morning shot to new levels of accuracy with the Rancilio Silvia PID Espresso Machine. Originally spartan on features, the base Silvia's overbuilt design suited our techs perfectly! They've added a solid-state relay and PID controller to replace the original thermometer setup...




www.seattlecoffeegear.com





There seems to be some consensus that the PID would go a long way to making the machine more foolproof for the less passionate users in the house. 

I think my wife was maybe thinking something more along the lines of the Saeco PicoBaristo mentioned by @Jaszer13. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. There are so many variables in the coffee world, it certainly feels like jumping into straight razor shaving like I did a few months ago. 

Now gotta find a grinder...


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## Matt Zilliox (Aug 13, 2020)

rocket... if its in the budget


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## Tristan (Aug 13, 2020)

Second Rocket.
However with that total Budget I would urge you to read up on Expobar dual boiler. Full E61 group head and really solid build for the low price

Grinder many options, but a used and well loved higher end grinder might be the ticket. Else check out Malkonig good for home use and fairly inexpensive


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## Luftmensch (Aug 14, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> I don’t drink milk but my wife does occasionally go for a cappuccino



Just highlighting this.... If you are only making the occasional cappuccino, a single boiler will be fine. Dual boiler machines are great! But it is a feature that doesnt match your needs. Allocate the money towards a better single boiler

On PIDs, since they have been raised, they are a nice feature but not one that becomes the difference between a good coffee and a bad coffee. Again, skipping this feature may save you money (better grinder?).




Chuckles said:


> There are so many variables in the coffee world, it certainly feels like jumping into straight razor shaving like I did a few months ago.



I think you and I would get along! This is part of the reason I suggest E61. If you really want to play around and explore the space, there tend to be quite a few products for these machines (and even mods/hacks). On the other hand, if you just want to learn to make a decent a coffee with the machine you have (and not decent into madness; aka coffeegeek.com )*, then a basic E61 machine without bells and whistles will serve you very well.


My utilitarian take on it is: with any good E61 (basic or fancy), the biggest variables affecting the quality of a shot are the grind settings and how you packed the portafilter. Inconsistencies created by the machines do exist but they arent the primary source of variance. You are. And trust me, there is a wide range of grind settings and ways you can pack a portafilter that make a really, really nice coffee. The system isn't that fragile and it isn't hard to find a good spot. All the bells and whistles (expense) and obsession (time) make it easier for you to repeatably make the so called 'god shot'. But that doesn't mean all the other shots are 'bad' in anyway!

Point being; I think a well-built, single boiler E61 without bells and whistles, paired with a stepless/micro adjustment grinder will offer you plenty of variables to play with. It will be capable of making truly excellent coffee and be your cheapest entry into the high-quality bracket.



* surely somebody out there on coffeegeek.com is saying "look, if you want a decent knive that cuts well without being obsessive about it"


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## Moooza (Aug 14, 2020)

Just back on the crema thing, I bought some emergency beans today from a lower quality roaster (covid reasons - better beans on the way).

For my usual 17g in 36g out, I got so much crema, like 1cm thick. But it was not a good coffee. The beans were over-roasted, were too fresh (they couldn't tell me roast date), and my grind size was slightly too fine so it was a bit over-extracted with some slight woody flavours.

Anyway, I'll let it sit, do a longer pre-infusion, change grind settings, etc. to help, but the large amount of crema was not an indication of a good shot.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 14, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I need an expresso machine too, just need a department store budet model, single serving size the smaller the better, but I want one with stainless steel boiler. Does anyone know what model has stainless boiler? I am trying to avoid aluminum.


I owned one of these LaCimbali Junior's before I got my current manual lever machine. It has a SS boiler. They can be purchased quite cheap used.








La Cimbali Junior Casa DT1


New to Cliff & Pebble comes the Junior Casa from Italian manufacturer La Cimbali. Featuring a powerful 1200W heating element, a massive 2.5 liter stainless steel boiler, and NSF certification, the Junior is ideal for any small commercial setting or home use. Direct plumb only. Free shipping...




cliffandpebble.com


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## Chuckles (Aug 14, 2020)

Thanks all for pointing me in the direction of Whole Latte Love. It’s a great site, reminds me of some of our fantastic vendors here at KKF.

When I started looking at size the Bezzera Hobby has begun to take the lead. Good capacity at 3L. Love the small footprint for my small kitchen.









Bezzera New Hobby Espresso Machine


The Bezzera New Hobby is a single boiler espresso machine with incredible steam power for making coffee shop quality lattes, cappuccinos, macchiatos, and more.




www.wholelattelove.com






Grinder:

I make coffee at 4:30am and my kitchen is very close to my kids’ rooms. Is there a volume factor I should be keeping in mind when looking at grinders?

When looking at the Rocket grinders is there a distinct advantage to the doserless version?

I just saw this one and might be falling in love. It is refurbished too for a price break. It says mini so I am assuming it is smaller than the rocket. Thoughts?









Refurbished Mazzer Mini Timer Espresso Grinder


The Mazzer Mini Timer was originally designed for commercial use but with today’s high-end kitchens and discriminating customers, the Mazzer Mini has moved into the home.




www.wholelattelove.com





These two look pretty ideal to me at this point. This is quickly turning into a speak now or forever hold your peace scenario. 

Am I missing anything that I should know?


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## GoodMagic (Aug 14, 2020)

I have a rancillio sylvie and rocky both from WLL, bought 20 years ago, both going strong. I don’t think you can do much better for the price. The sylvie makes a nice crema, but you need to get the grind right and you need to have a good tamper. The frothing bar on my machine is suboptimal but I think they redid it a while ago. The rocky is a bargain and is one solid grinder. The burrs last a long time, in fact I think mine are the original ones. Good luck and congrats.


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## Moooza (Aug 14, 2020)

I would still consider the Niche Zero grinder. It's very quiet comparatively, and generally highly recommended. Single dosing will change your workflow, but I definitely prefer it, YMMV.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 14, 2020)

GoodMagic said:


> I have a rancillio sylvie and rocky both from WLL, bought 20 years ago, both going strong. I don’t think you can do much better for the price. The sylvie makes a nice crema, but you need to get the grind right and you need to have a good tamper. The frothing bar on my machine is suboptimal but I think they redid it a while ago. The rocky is a bargain and is one solid grinder. The burrs last a long time, in fact I think mine are the original ones. Good luck and congrats.


Thats the setup i started out with. Really needs PID to shine though.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 14, 2020)

And remember to source freshly roasted, high quality beans. The best grinder or machine won't make bad beans taste good. I usually go to Klatch, Redbird, Caffe Lusso or Chris' Coffee, buy 5lb bags (free shipping) and portion 250g quantities into zip lok bags and freeze.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 14, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Is there a volume factor I should be keeping in mind when looking at grinders?



For coffee machines, rotary pumps are quieter than vibrating pumps (can be quite loud). And for grinders... generally speaking bigger can be quieter.... So that might be another factor encouraging you to buy the biggest grinder you can.




Chuckles said:


> is there a distinct advantage to the doserless version



Depends on your workflow.... Grinders with dosers are really for high throughput. You can set the grinder on without bothering to monitor what volume of grounds enter the doser chamber - you know you will use them for that queue of orders lining up. The doser just means you can fill the portafiter without a cascade of grounds spilling everywhere. So yeah... the advantage is efficiency in a cafe environment. But there is no advantage at home (and just another part to clean and maintain).

At home 'grind-as-you-need-it' makes more sense, that way you always have fresh coffee grounds. I have a big grinder with a fairly ludicrous bean hopper. Each time I make a coffee I put one measured amount of beans in the top and grind them directly into the portafilter. So the bean hopper is close to being simply aesthetic!!

I wouldnt avoid a grinder because it had a doser (the Mini Mazzer is great)... but all things being equal, I'd buy the grinder without one.






Moooza said:


> I would still consider the Niche Zero grinder.



Nice grinder but probably too expensive for this budget


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## QCDawg (Aug 14, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Thank you for the ideas. The Silvia looks like the front runner and first glance. Hadn’t thought to look for a used grinder that is a great idea! This seems like I am him going to have to dive in a bit to figure out. I am a little concerned about height after looking at pictures. I will have to measure counter to cabinet height tomorrow.
> 
> Thanks guys and keep the recommendations coming!!


I had that rancillio for damn near 10 years till it quit. Neapolitan Italian fella picked it for me.. told me not to get a bunch of spendier ****.It was awesome. Great portafilter double and single size. Grind was the key ..get his brother, the Rocky..for the grinding. Course enough for French press, fine enough for espresso. Enough pressure for beautiful crema. Watch that tank in the back tho...keep it full ... she’s an “always on”..And if you let it all boil out? It will burn up the hose in the machine. Just my $.02


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## WildBoar (Aug 14, 2020)

Mazzer Mini is a great grinder. You can pull off the top hopper, load the beans, and put an extra tamper in the throat so it fits under a counter.

But please know any grinder like this will be loud. Just a fact of life. But is is definitely a worthwhile grinder for espresso.

Mine has a doser, but I really do not use it as such. I grind for each pour. I do not leave grinds for later shots, as the ground coffee goes downhill fast.


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## captaincaed (Aug 15, 2020)

I'll second wildboar. Fresh grind is chemically important to crema since you're doing a solid state extraction/emulsification. Old ground coffee, especially so fine, offgases really quickly and you lose the ability to make crema.

If your kids complain, you can sell them into hard labor and use the proceeds to buy a Synesso.

Edit : yeah that hand grinder sounds like a better idea


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## JBroida (Aug 15, 2020)

Damn... I feel like I must be the only guy on here with a hand grinder- 1zpresso Jx-pro- which I am quite happy with


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## lowercasebill (Aug 15, 2020)

JBroida said:


> Damn... I feel like I must be the only guy on here with a hand grinder- 1zpresso Jx-pro- which I am quite happy with


I have a zazzenhaus and a Kyocera as well as the Rocky


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## Chuckles (Aug 15, 2020)

@JBroida That looks like a very elegant solution. I like the micro footprint and presumably quiet operation. It looks like a cross between my pepper mill and the grinder I have for my occasional organic end of day unwinding needs.  I like the versatility for pour over applications too. Certainly cheaper. How long does it take to grind a double shot worth of beans?


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## LostHighway (Aug 15, 2020)

Some manual grinder reviews here:

and here

I confess that I'm too much of a volume coffee consumer to live with a manual on a daily basis but if it works for you so much the better.


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## Moooza (Aug 15, 2020)

JBroida said:


> Damn... I feel like I must be the only guy on here with a hand grinder- 1zpresso Jx-pro- which I am quite happy with


Nothing wrong with a hand grinder - love my Commandante. But wait until upgrade-itis kicks in and you start chasing a Kafatek or something.


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## Nemo (Aug 16, 2020)

Congrats on thd anniversary. 

I went through this decision tree earlier this year when my Saeco Incanto bit the dust after 13 or 14 years.

Ended up with a La Pavoni Cellini. Single boiler but the heat exchanger allows steam right after pulling a shot.

For the grinder, I got a Eureka Mignon Specialita. Probably a bit of overkill- a Silenzia would have worked just as well. 

Very happy with both so far. The coffe is great. By far the best I have made.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 16, 2020)

Best handgrinder on the market. Conical burr set which is ideal for darker roast coffee beans




__





HG One – Espresso hand grinder | FRSHGRND – Coffee Reviews, Travel, Photography







frshgrnd.com


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## Michi (Aug 16, 2020)

Here's a nice budget coffee grinder.


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## Lars (Aug 16, 2020)

Michi said:


> Here's a nice budget coffee grinder.


Have you tried it? How does it compare to an EK43?


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## JBroida (Aug 16, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> @JBroida That looks like a very elegant solution. I like the micro footprint and presumably quiet operation. It looks like a cross between my pepper mill and the grinder I have for my occasional organic end of day unwinding needs.  I like the versatility for pour over applications too. Certainly cheaper. How long does it take to grind a double shot worth of beans?


obviously depends on the grind setting... i can do 35g of beans (just under the max capacity of my grinder per batch) in about a minute, plus or minus a few seconds. Other grinds, for my aeropress or kyoto-style drip coldbrew, are generally faster. For example, the kyoto style cold brew is a setting a bit finer than pour over, but not quite a fine as espresso (closer to pour over) and my recipe is about 38g. It takes me about 30-40 seconds.


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## slickmamba (Aug 16, 2020)

JBroida said:


> Damn... I feel like I must be the only guy on here with a hand grinder- 1zpresso Jx-pro- which I am quite happy with


I use a kinu grinder  I've heard good things about the 1zpresso stuff tho


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## Matt Zilliox (Aug 16, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> And remember to source freshly roasted, high quality beans. The best grinder or machine won't make bad beans taste good. I usually go to Klatch, Redbird, Caffe Lusso or Chris' Coffee, buy 5lb bags (free shipping) and portion 250g quantities into zip lok bags and freeze.



i also roast if anyone wants something specific... just sayin. used to roast for a shop, now just home roasting. happy to roast any green beans folks send, or something from my stock if folks want.


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## lowercasebill (Aug 16, 2020)

Matt Zilliox said:


> i also roast if anyone wants something specific... just sayin. used to roast for a shop, now just home roasting. happy to roast any green beans folks send, or something from my stock if folks want.


What do you roast with?


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## Matt Zilliox (Aug 16, 2020)

lowercasebill said:


> What do you roast with?


just on the behmor 1600 now, but looking to upgrade soon


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## Michi (Aug 16, 2020)

Lars said:


> Have you tried it? How does it compare to an EK43?


No I haven't tried it, and don't know how it compares to an EK43. But, at the price, I would hope that it's good…


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## lowercasebill (Aug 16, 2020)

Matt Zilliox said:


> just on the behmor 1600 now, but looking to upgrade soon


Me too please let us know your upgrade choice


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## Bear (Aug 16, 2020)

I bought my Alex Duetto used 10 years ago on ebay for around $800 my Ceato E-37 from Whole Latte Love for about the same. As for coffee I've tried them all, Dragonfly's naturals are the best IMHO.





I had a Rocky first, spend the money on a good grinder it will save you allot of headaches.


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## Chuckles (Aug 17, 2020)

Well, I pulled the trigger on a Silvia and a Rocky grinder. Bought locally. They had just gotten Rancilio back in stock following being fully looted during the recent riots here in Minneapolis. Some windows still boarded up and many stores in the area have not reopened. Anyway, felt good to throw some business their way. 

In the end I was persuaded by the successful history of these machines and the resulting wealth of tutorial videos and postings. There is nothing that could happen with these machines that isn’t well documented online. I am sure they will remain serviceable for a very long time. Looking forward to trying them out in the morning. 

Thank you to everybody who contributed their perspective. I really love this community.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 17, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Well, I pulled the trigger on a Silvia and a Rocky grinder. Bought locally.



Congratulations! Good choices. That is a wonderful anniversary gift. I have little doubt you'll enjoy it for years to come!




Chuckles said:


> There is nothing that could happen with these machines that isn’t well documented online. I am sure they will remain serviceable for a very long time.



There are definitely wear and tear items: seals, heating element, pump. If you're willing to get busy, you can maintain these yourself. Apart from the very simple electrical system the rest is passive thermal/fluid mechanics! Far, far easier to maintain and repair than a super-automatic.

Post a photo of your first shot if you have the time


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## camochili (Aug 17, 2020)

congratulations for your anniversary.
when we started to look for a coffeemachine, we didn't really know what to look for. my wife was looking for a automatic coffe machine like a jura, and i was going for a portafilter machine. so we went to a shop and got asked what we would mostly drink. both we said espresso with maybe some cappucini. basically same as you. clear advise was to chose a portafilter. 
to make long things short, budget was more or less the same, and we ended up buying a bezzera unica. we are very happy with it and it brews great espresso.
regarding the crema, it will not be the machine that makes the difference, but the coffe, grind, and pressure.
if you know a good coffeeshop, let the barista explain how to get started. it's a bit of homework to do and you may learn everyday, but in the end you will hopefully be able to brew great coffee.
for me, i don't want to go back to automatic machines or anything else...
ah, and btw, for the budget we managed to get a grinder, too. eureka mignon... 
hope that helps


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## MarcelNL (Aug 17, 2020)

Good choice, get your feet wet, see what you like and don't like, buy lots of different software to complement the new machinery and get a read on what you like. You can always jump into the espresso rabbit hole if you like, better shinier grinders, flow profiling, roasting, enough areas to spend more time than a day holds.

Read up on basics (not that hard but it can be challenging for new folks to this arena to dial a new setup). Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

Enjoy!


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## Luftmensch (Aug 17, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> Read up on basics (not that hard but it can be challenging for new folks to this arena to dial a new setup). Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste



Definitely. Good tip and nice link 

Further to that, if you are new to this, I would recommend starting out with a reasonably priced bean and buying 500g to 1kg (1 to 2 lbs) start. It is likely you will chew through a lot of beans (and terrible coffee) getting your grinder settings right. It would be a shame to waste money and good beans on that experimentation. Once you know a good base setup, you can start experimenting with nicer beans that capture your interest more. By then you will have a better understanding of how adjustments affect the coffee and you will have decent 'default' settings to work from.


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## Bear (Aug 17, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Definitely. Good tip and nice link
> 
> Further to that, if you are new to this, I would recommend starting out with a reasonably priced bean and buying 500g to 1kg (1 to 2 lbs) start. It is likely you will chew through a lot of beans (and terrible coffee) getting your grinder settings right. It would be a shame to waste money and good beans on that experimentation.



It will take a good pound before you burrs break in and the grinder settles down, the whole thing is a little like learning to sharpen. watch the link above.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 17, 2020)

You can throw some minute rice through the grinder to season the burrs, please keep in mind ONLY minute rice nothing else!

great tip on buying enough of a decent but cheap bean (make it fresh roasted beans as you will have difficulty managing flow rate with stale beans, stale beans are only good for blind baking pastry)
If you have a local roaster go see them, taste what they make out of their beans so you know what it should be and if you like the flavor profile (you would not believe how in fave battery acid espresso is...)


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## Chuckles (Aug 17, 2020)

That is a great link thank you for sharing! I think I am going to color print those graphics, laminate them and keep them be here we store the coffee. 

First shot was pretty good this morning. Went pretty much how I thought it might. Being a guy of course I over tamped and had a slower flow rate than I will next time. But flavor was better than anything we have had in our house and there is an entire world of exploration and nuance ahead. I am sure by the time we hit our 20th anniversary we will have it dialed. We were tasting each others shots this morning and giving notes. This is fun.


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## Horsemover (Aug 17, 2020)

Congrats on the anniversary and purchase. This thread had me researching machines all weekend. I think you made a wise choice. Please keep us posted.


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## podzap (Aug 17, 2020)

I just bought this grinder last week so that I could get into cold-brew due to stomach acid problems. Paid 305 EUR for it and it is basically pro quality - 58mm flat burr stainless steel blades, 90 gram box capacity and auto shut-off when the hopper is empty. 40 grind settings. The next best grinder on the market would easily run 3 times as expensive. I don't think you can get these outside Europe, though.









Wilfa Svart Uniform Coffee Grinder WSFBS-100B


Here it is – an awesome coffee grinder that has great quality flat burrs to make your coffee taste even better! (comes with EU 230V / 50Hz electricity – you might need adapters to use this elsewhere!) The secret to great tasting coffee is to grind the beans just before making your coffee (e.g...




www.warriorcoffee.com





When it comes to espresso, I've owned two DeLonghi fully-automatic machines during the past 11 years years and just love them to death. Keep them clean and they do a pretty decent crema.


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## lowercasebill (Aug 17, 2020)

All this Sylvia Rocky talk.... I went to the file cabinet. Got them Jan 07. 13 yrs and never a problem. I replaced the gasket once ($8)
Good luck with yours.


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## Lars (Aug 17, 2020)

podzap said:


> I just bought this grinder last week so that I could get into cold-brew due to stomach acid problems. Paid 305 EUR for it and it is basically pro quality - 58mm flat burr stainless steel blades, 90 gram box capacity and auto shut-off when the hopper is empty. 40 grind settings. The next best grinder on the market would easily run 3 times as expensive. I don't think you can get these outside Europe, though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would love to hear your thoughts on it. It is supposed to do a great filter grind.
It was developed with Tim Wendelboe of Norway, who does the most wonderful light roasts I have ever tried.


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## lowercasebill (Aug 17, 2020)




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## MIke J (Aug 17, 2020)

I have been really happy with this one so far.....may tap the upper limits of your budget but has a lot of bang for the buck. 









Profitec Pro 300 Espresso Machine


The Profitec Pro 300 makes competitive dual boiler performance more attainable with a small footprint, temperature control, and boilers that warm up in ten minutes. A perfect espresso machine for cappuccino and espresso lovers alike.




clivecoffee.com


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## podzap (Aug 17, 2020)

Lars said:


> Would love to hear your thoughts on it. It is supposed to do a great filter grind.
> It was developed with Tim Wendelboe of Norway, who does the most wonderful light roasts I have ever tried.



What can I say? I'm happy with the purchase. I've already used it to do 3 litres of cold-brew and a few french presses full (they both need the same grind (28 out of 41, where 1 is espresso and 41 is coarse). I don't own a filter so I couldn't comment on that. Haven't yet tried any other grind sizes, but the grind is very uniform (thus the machine's name).

First cold-brew batch we put 100g of beans in the hopper and it overflowed the box and the auto shut-off didn't work. My wife spent the next 15 minutes cleaning the inside of the machine (it comes apart pretty nicely). I think anything over 75 grams will overflow the box and cause the same problem, so when we did our second cold-brew and used 90 grams we emptied the box half-way through the grind.

The collection box is metal (almost no static cling) as is the entire casing of the machine. It's not a toy like the 50 EUR Wilfa grinders.


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## Lars (Aug 17, 2020)

podzap said:


> What can I say? I'm happy with the purchase. I've already used it to do 3 litres of cold-brew and a few french presses full (they both need the same grind (28 out of 41, where 1 is espresso and 41 is coarse). I don't own a filter so I couldn't comment on that. Haven't yet tried any other grind sizes, but the grind is very uniform (thus the machine's name).
> 
> First cold-brew batch we put 100g of beans in the hopper and it overflowed the box and the auto shut-off didn't work. My wife spent the next 15 minutes cleaning the inside of the machine (it comes apart pretty nicely). I think anything over 75 grams will overflow the box and cause the same problem, so when we did our second cold-brew and used 90 grams we emptied the box half-way through the grind.
> 
> The collection box is metal (almost no static cling) as is the entire casing of the machine. It's not a toy like the 50 EUR Wilfa grinders.


75g would be enough for a 1,25L french press, adeqoute for home use imo. Filter grind basically means everything but espresso..


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## podzap (Aug 17, 2020)

Lars said:


> 75g would be enough for a 1,25L french press, adeqoute for home use imo. Filter grind basically means everything but espresso..



The french press coffee had the least amount of residue I've ever seen.


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## daveb (Aug 17, 2020)

MIke J said:


> I have been really happy with this one so far.....may tap the upper limits of your budget but has a lot of bang for the buck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



@Mike - Drahthaar?


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## MarcelNL (Aug 17, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> That is a great link thank you for sharing! I think I am going to color print those graphics, laminate them and keep them be here we store the coffee.
> 
> First shot was pretty good this morning. Went pretty much how I thought it might. Being a guy of course I over tamped and had a slower flow rate than I will next time. But flavor was better than anything we have had in our house and there is an entire world of exploration and nuance ahead. I am sure by the time we hit our 20th anniversary we will have it dialed. We were tasting each others shots this morning and giving notes. This is fun.



don't over think tamping, anything over 10 pounds of force does not add anything. Let the coffe bed be the flow resistance, tamping (unless well over what is normally doable or far too loose) should not affect shot time.


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## Moooza (Aug 17, 2020)

lowercasebill said:


> View attachment 90736



Crema is a little light. Might need to grind finer. What's your puck prep? What's you dosage and output as well as draw time?


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## MIke J (Aug 17, 2020)

daveb said:


> @Mike - Drahthaar?


Yes sir


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## daveb (Aug 17, 2020)

I've been without for a couple years. Gotta fix that.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 18, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> don't over think tamping, anything over 10 pounds of force does not add anything.



The community has gone through waves of trends. Ten (?) years ago exact tamping pressure was everything. Last time I checked it was precision fitting tampers  

Again, this stuff probably matters if you want out-of-this-world, sublime coffee often. Not so much if you want really, really great coffee everytime. I agree.... don't over think it! It isn't a fragile system!


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 18, 2020)

A good extraction target is 30g in 30s.

I would seriously look at the PID mod for the Silvia. It does make a good machine great. The design of the Silvia is quite simple so temp control is hard to optimize shot after shot. I would get the occasional 'god' shot but found the temp was often too high, and that can have a negative impact on extraction and crema production.


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## podzap (Aug 18, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> The community has gone through waves of trends. Ten (?) years ago exact tamping pressure was everything. Last time I checked it was precision fitting tampers
> 
> Again, this stuff probably matters if you want out-of-this-world, sublime coffee often. Not so much if you want really, really great coffee everytime. I agree.... don't over think it! It isn't a fragile system!



There are idiots who will pay 90 bucks for a tamper. Seriously, it's a small piece of machined metal with a plastic knob on top.

Still using my fully automatic DeLonghi for espresso and it handles the job better than any human ever could - perfect grind, perfect temp, perfect pressure, perfect extraction, perfect crema, perfect taste. You really can't beat it. Would be kind of hard for a coffee shop to justify 5-6 euro coffees if they did them with automatics, though. It's the whole performance that people pay for, plus that art on the top of the coffee. I'd prolly lose my **** if I had to go through that whole song and dance of manual espresso after having just woken up in the morning. But those steampunk-looking chrome machines look cool in the kitchen as long as the maid shines them regularly, no?


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## lowercasebill (Aug 18, 2020)

Moooza said:


> Crema is a little light. Might need to grind finer. What's your puck prep? What's you dosage and output as well as draw time?


I didn't pay attention to any of that. I just thought the thread needed a pic.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 18, 2020)

lowercasebill said:


> I just thought the thread needed a pic.



It does!


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## WPerry (Aug 18, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Well, I pulled the trigger on a Silvia and a Rocky grinder. Bought locally. They had just gotten Rancilio back in stock following being fully looted during the recent riots here in Minneapolis. Some windows still boarded up and many stores in the area have not reopened. Anyway, felt good to throw some business their way.



Nice. Kitchen Window, I assume? Yeah, it'd be nice to keep them open. I had my espresso machine (Quickmill Anita) and grinder (Mazzer Mini) long before moving back to Mpls, but KW is a nice little kitchen shop (hell, they're one of the only ones left). That reminds me that I need to pick up a replacement bar for my knock box and some grinder cleaning beans. 

One of my friends rents some office space in Uptown - seems that the landlords are currently happy to sit on vacant properties rather than lower rents to match reality. We'll see how that pans out, I guess.


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## WildBoar (Aug 18, 2020)

podzap said:


> Still using my fully automatic DeLonghi for espresso and it handles the job better than any human ever could - perfect grind, perfect temp, perfect pressure, perfect extraction, perfect crema, perfect taste. You really can't beat it.


Interesting. I get two different espresso beans from the roaster. They do not use the same grind setting. How the heck does an automatic machine 'know' how to adjust the grind for different beans, or for the beans getting staler over a few days while you use up a batch? In my experience with automatics, they are very limited in their capabilities (my sister has one, and I usually give up on it when I am visiting).


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## WPerry (Aug 18, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> Interesting. I get two different espresso beans from the roaster. They do not use the same grind setting. How the heck does an automatic machine 'know' how to adjust the grind for different beans, or for the beans getting staler over a few days while you use up a batch? In my experience with automatics, they are very limited in their capabilities (my sister has one, and I usually give up on it when I am visiting).



My grind settings, with the same pound of beans, change with the weather... literally. The only "perfect" pull from a fully auto that I can imagine is a perfectly mediocre one.


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## parbaked (Aug 18, 2020)

podzap said:


> Still using my fully automatic DeLonghi for espresso and it handles the job better than any human ever could - perfect grind, perfect temp, perfect pressure, perfect extraction, perfect crema, perfect taste.


perfectly average...


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## Lars (Aug 18, 2020)

I can neither confirm or deny that I once sent a basket to Australia and had Pullman machine me a custom tamper.
If it did happen - and I'm not saying it did - I still preferred my off-the-shelf Thor tamper.


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## Chuckles (Aug 18, 2020)

@WPerry Yes, Kitchen Window. I was surprised they had the Rancilio products there. They have a long way to go to recover their inventory. I wasn’t fully clear that the looting and vandalizing had been that extreme that far west on Lake Street. I live East of 35W and rarely make the trek to uptown.


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## Evan Estern (Aug 18, 2020)

I use an Olympia Cremina 67 paired with a Rocky grinder. I make 3-4 cappuccinos a day and have nearly every day since I got the Cremina in 1985. If you've never heard of it, the Cremina is a very basic, but incredibly solid machine. Swiss made to last a lifetime (or two) and the coffee it produces is as good or better than anything I've had, anywhere. The new ones are exquisite and very expensive, but used ones can sometimes be a bargain. Most parts are interchangeable between the old and new and so are readily available. if you are reasonably handy with a wrench rebuilding an old one is pretty easy and actually fun. I usually go about 5 years between overhauls give or take, so I've done it quite a few times. My Rocky grinder has also been pretty solid for the >10 years I've had it. I recently replaced the grinder blades. I might not have needed to, but it seemed like a reasonable thing to do considering the age of the machine and I do think it improved the coffee. The doserless spout had to be replaced because it cracked at one point. The momentary on/off switch failed (it's in a spot that gets a lot of coffee dust and eventually that will get into the switch and destroy it) due to poor placement, but it's a $7 part so no big deal. I also had to replace the rubber feet. It's not built to the same level of heirloom quality as a Cremina, but it's still a solid, very repairable machine that produces reasonable, consistent grinds.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 18, 2020)

podzap said:


> There are idiots who will pay 90 bucks for a tamper. Seriously, it's a small piece of machined metal with a plastic knob on top.
> 
> Still using my fully automatic DeLonghi for espresso and it handles the job better than any human ever could - perfect grind, perfect temp, perfect pressure, perfect extraction, perfect crema, perfect taste. You really can't beat it. Would be kind of hard for a coffee shop to justify 5-6 euro coffees if they did them with automatics, though. It's the whole performance that people pay for, plus that art on the top of the coffee. I'd prolly lose my **** if I had to go through that whole song and dance of manual espresso after having just woken up in the morning. But those steampunk-looking chrome machines look cool in the kitchen as long as the maid shines them regularly, no?



reminder to self; get rid of the Urania and find a DeLonghi full auto tomorrow to free up some kitchen space. You know why coffeeshops use serious equipment? Because if they'd use flimsy full auto's the repair bills would stack high to the ceiling in no time, OR the product would taste like burnt rubber (charbucks current trait, a flavor profile reached by using black beans and automatic machines, heck 95% of their customers douse their coffee with a GJ of added sugar anyway).


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## WPerry (Aug 18, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> @WPerry Yes, Kitchen Window. I was surprised they had the Rancilio products there. They have a long way to go to recover their inventory. I wasn’t fully clear that the looting and vandalizing had been that extreme that far west on Lake Street. I live East of 35W and rarely make the trek to uptown.



It wasn't nearly as bad over here, no smoldering ruins or anything like that, but yeah, some stores got hit. The double-whammy of the riots and covid has hurt a lot of shops/restaurants, though. The Sur la Table down the road from me recently announced that they're closing, so pickin's are getting slim for specialty kitchen stores. 

Fingers crossed that things don't go too poorly anywhere in the city/state/country post-trial.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 18, 2020)

Evan Estern said:


> I use an Olympia Cremina 67 paired with a Rocky grinder. I make 3-4 cappuccinos a day and have nearly every day since I got the Cremina in 1985. If you've never heard of it, the Cremina is a very basic, but incredibly solid machine. Swiss made to last a lifetime (or two) and the coffee it produces is as good or better than anything I've had, anywhere. The new ones are exquisite and very expensive, but used ones can sometimes be a bargain. Most parts are interchangeable between the old and new and so are readily available. if you are reasonably handy with a wrench rebuilding an old one is pretty easy and actually fun. I usually go about 5 years between overhauls give or take, so I've done it quite a few times. My Rocky grinder has also been pretty solid for the >10 years I've had it. I recently replaced the grinder blades. I might not have needed to, but it seemed like a reasonable thing to do considering the age of the machine and I do think it improved the coffee. The doserless spout had to be replaced because it cracked at one point. The momentary on/off switch failed (it's in a spot that gets a lot of coffee dust and eventually that will get into the switch and destroy it) due to poor placement, but it's a $7 part so no big deal. I also had to replace the rubber feet. It's not built to the same level of heirloom quality as a Cremina, but it's still a solid, very repairable machine that produces reasonable, consistent grinds.


Olympia Cremina has a huge cult following. Its a great little manual lever machine.
Since we all like pics, here is my setup. Londinium L1P manual lever machine, plumbed in to the mains and a Nuova Simonelli ClimaPro flat burr grinder that I picked up used.


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## Moooza (Aug 18, 2020)

You guys with Olympia Cremina's! My dream machine (aside from a Decent v1.4). 

I'll get one eventually, but damn! Waiting for my Kafatek Monotlith Flat grinder at the moment, pre-ordered for delivery at the end of the year, then I'll need a machine to match it.

I think this thread needs more pics too (terrible beans, but looks good):


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## gregfisk (Aug 18, 2020)

Congratulations on your anniversary! What a great gift to give yourselves. My Brother-in-law owned an espresso company here in Seattle and sold, serviced and installed machines in many of the restaurants here. This is my Commercial La San Marco single group and grinder I’ve had for over 20 years now. This machine is semiautomatic but I don’t use it that way. IMO you just can’t get a great cup by letting the machine decide too many things. It takes practice to get the grind right and it changes with the different beans you bring home. Then you need to learn how hard to press down on that ground coffee so the extraction speed is right.


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## Chuckles (Aug 18, 2020)

@WPerry It feels like it is still teetering quite a bit. The encampments couldn’t have been good during the recent hail storms. My car was actually broken into this past weekend which seems to be a very common occurrence these days. The tinderbox feeling persists...

On a lighter note the coffee I drank on my commute today was the highpoint of the day. I ran the water a couple seconds longer before I pulled the shot to drop the temp a smidge and it really connected. Really opened up and widened the flavor profile. I have been thinking about it all evening.


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## Evan Estern (Aug 19, 2020)

My setup below. That steel cylinder on the left is an "Airscape" vacuum canister for storing the beans. It really made a difference. I can also highly recommend my local roastery: #6 Depot in West Stockbridge, MA. They ship. I'm really particular about coffee and these guys just blew my mind.


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## LostHighway (Aug 19, 2020)

Since we have a few Minnesotans on this thread I'm curious as to which of the local roasters you prefer? I have mostly home roasted over the past couple decades (currently Behmor 1600 but it is down awaiting a rebuild/upgrade) but I have purchased roasted beans locally from Spyhouse, Up, and Bootstrap. Peace I have not tried for a long time but have not liked their beans/roasts in the past. I haven't tried Dogwood or Wesley Andrews. For pour over, vacuum/siphon and AeroPress applications I have been the most happy with Up on a performance per dollar basis. I didn't think Spyhouse delivered that much more considering your getting a 10oz/283g bag for the roughly the same price as a 16oz/454g bag from Up.


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## podzap (Aug 19, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> Interesting. I get two different espresso beans from the roaster. They do not use the same grind setting. How the heck does an automatic machine 'know' how to adjust the grind for different beans, or for the beans getting staler over a few days while you use up a batch? In my experience with automatics, they are very limited in their capabilities (my sister has one, and I usually give up on it when I am visiting).



It's got a grind adjustment dial in the hopper compartment. It also has an opening where you can use your own grind. My wife uses the own grind feature now and then, for example when she wants to use some Lavazza Decaf.


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## WPerry (Aug 19, 2020)

LostHighway said:


> Since we have a few Minnesotans on this thread I'm curious as to which of the local roasters you prefer? I have mostly home roasted over the past couple decades (currently Behmor 1600 but it is down awaiting a rebuild/upgrade) but I have purchased roasted beans locally from Spyhouse, Up, and Bootstrap. Peace I have not tried for a long time but have not liked their beans/roasts in the past. I haven't tried Dogwood or Wesley Andrews. For pour over, vacuum/siphon and AeroPress applications I have been the most happy with Up on a performance per dollar basis. I didn't think Spyhouse delivered that much more considering your getting a 10oz/283g bag for the roughly the same price as a 16oz/454g bag from Up.



I like Spyhouse Orion, though you're right that it's not the best value proposition. I used to like Dogwood Neon, but it's been a few years. Bootstrap DIY Espresso is another one that I like and will pick up now and then. I think that I liked FiveWatt, but I rarely get over there and it's been a while on that one, too. Oh - just looked 'em up and was reminded that they'd moved in to the old Bull Run/Vicinity shop on Lyndale - that's close enough that I'll make a trip over some time soon. 

Yeah, you can continue to pass on Peace. 

I hadn't heard of UP - will put them on the list.


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## Chuckles (Aug 19, 2020)

We use Peace coffee at work and I really really dislike it. I used to buy gelato supplies from Up but have never actually tried their coffee. Good people tho. Right now I am using a Sumatra from Alakef coffee which is from Duluth. I love it. Got it for free with the machine. I was thinking Dogwood for my next move. I have really enjoyed everything I had had at FiveWatt but have never thought to buy their beans. Dogwood is closer to me, it would be great if they turn into a winner.

Just looked at a map and saw a place called the Roastery. A one man roasting operation on Lyndale just south of the creek. Really close to me. I am going to check it out.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 20, 2020)

podzap said:


> There are idiots who will pay 90 bucks for a tamper. Seriously, it's a small piece of machined metal with a plastic knob on top.



 



Lars said:


> I can neither confirm or deny that I once sent a basket to Australia and had Pullman machine me a custom tamper.



I didn't go that far! Just a standard fitting tamper. Jarrah is a nice iconic Australian wood for the plastic knob on top though:







Nothing wrong with a little kitchen bling so long as you know what you are paying for.... a piece of metal that has to do no more than fit into a standard basket


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## WPerry (Aug 20, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Just looked at a map and saw a place called the Roastery. A one man roasting operation on Lyndale just south of the creek. Really close to me. I am going to check it out.



Report back, please. I've heard good things, but similar effusive praise for the roaster in Linden Hills, and my subsequent disappointment, has made hesitant. 

Side query: was there still a Dogwood at Calhoun Square (if the building is still called that)? I wasn't sure if they'd closed, post-... everything, but this talk has me wanting to re-visit some Neon beans.


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## Chuckles (Aug 20, 2020)

Dogwood was closed...


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## podzap (Aug 21, 2020)

Lars said:


> Would love to hear your thoughts on it. It is supposed to do a great filter grind.
> It was developed with Tim Wendelboe of Norway, who does the most wonderful light roasts I have ever tried.



Well one update on this grinder. It's my first flat-burr grinder, and I was a bit unfamiliar with most grind sizes for this and that just based on my eyeball.

Today, just out of curiosity, I tried to do an espresso grind at setting 1, nothing came out. Tried incrementally from 2 all the way up to 9 before I finally got output. At setting 9 out of 41, it produced an espresso grind. That meant that the machine was shipped while being very seriously out of calibration. Unbelievable, really. And nothing in the manual explains anything about calibration, I had to google this and found a video about how to replace the stock burrs with 3rd party burrs and then how to calibrate it afterwards.

Luckily, this machine is super easy to calibrate. Three screws out, rotated the upper burr mounting plate 9 clicks counterclockwise, three screws back in and test. Quick dry run at setting 3, no burr contact. Setting 2, safe. Setting 1, safe. Fine, throw in 5 grams of beans at setting 1 and out came an espresso grind. Went up to setting 28 which is for french press / cold-brew and got a completely different grind than I was getting before on 28.

Started a new cold-brew going now in the Hario Mizudashi with 90g ground at setting 28 and we will see this evening how it turns out.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 21, 2020)

podzap said:


> Today, just out of curiosity, I tried to do an espresso grind at setting 1, nothing came out. Tried incrementally from 2 all the way up to 9 before I finally got output.



Yikes... 

You didn't hear any nasty sounds did you? With some grinders you have to make sure you don't crash the burrs - if you do, you'll know!


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## podzap (Aug 21, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Yikes...
> 
> You didn't hear any nasty sounds did you? With some grinders you have to make sure you don't crash the burrs - if you do, you'll know!



No, they just weren't far enough apart to let the beans in. And they still looked quite OK when I took them apart.

Still clearly under 30-day return policy and warranty as well, so I would have just exchanged it for another one.


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## Chuckles (Oct 18, 2020)

Bumping to update.

I am very happy with the Sylvia and Rocky grinder. If I had to do it over again I might spend more as the upgrade in the quality of my morning routine has been huge. I wish the machine was direct plumbed. My wife is steaming milk more than I would have guessed.

If anybody reading this is going down this route go ahead and buy an 18g basket when you buy the Sylvia. It is a game changer as there is no reason to put it off.
....

For the Minneapolis crew @LostHighway @WPerry

I finally made it to the Roastery on Lyndale yesterday morning. Just a guy sitting in a small basement room with a nice looking roaster and some burlap sacks of green beans. He was excited to see me and my 10 year old walk in. He was listening to new pressings of the Beatles on a vintage sound system. Pretty much exactly what I was looking for. I just needed somebody who could translate what I could describe for flavor profile into bean selection and roast. I ended up with a Guatemalan French roast and an Indian monsoon season bean. I have only tried the French roast but it tasted just as described. I am far from qualified to be picky on his knowledge or technique but I was happy to have met the guy. He gave my son a tour of his roaster and we chatted about vinyl shops in the neighborhood. I think he is my people. It was a nice bike ride down the creek and back, the trees were fantastic with color. I think you are both ahead of me on the coffee journey but the Roastery might be worth checking out. He said he delivers for free starting at 2 pounds.


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## LostHighway (Oct 18, 2020)

The Roastery is a bit off my turf although I have been driving to that area occasionally either to buy baguettes or alcohol.
Aged or monsooned coffees can be something of an acquired taste unless you prefer very low acidity, they sometimes pick up a peppery note which is interesting, but they can taste very flat if you're used to or prefer brighter coffees. I just got a fresh batch of green beans and need to set to work rebuilding my Behmor.
I agree with @WPerry that the Linden Hills roaster isn't worth a visit unless his skills have improved dramatically.
I think a plumbed in rotary pump espresso machine would be a substantial bump over the Silvia. I don't think I've seen any new ones recently for less than $2.5k but some of the other forum members will have better idea than I do.


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## WildBoar (Oct 18, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Bumping to update.
> 
> I am very happy with the Sylvia and Rocky grinder. If I had to do it over again I might spend more as the upgrade in the quality of my morning routine has been huge. I wish the machine was direct plumbed. My wife is steaming milk more than I would have guessed.
> 
> If anybody reading this is going down this route go ahead and buy an 18g basket when you buy the Sylvia. It is a game changer as there is no reason to put it off.


Great to hear it worked out well for you. The nice thing about starting with the Silvia is when you are ready to update to a double boiler you can get most of your money back out of it.

I did not plumb my machine, even though it came with everything needed to do so. But it has a pretty large reservoir so I only need to fill it every 5-6 days, and that is with steaming milk with most shots.

That roaster really sounds great. That will make the experience even better.


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## WPerry (Oct 18, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Bumping to update.
> 
> I am very happy with the Sylvia and Rocky grinder. If I had to do it over again I might spend more as the upgrade in the quality of my morning routine has been huge. I wish the machine was direct plumbed. My wife is steaming milk more than I would have guessed.
> 
> ...



I was talking to one of the guys on my cycling team about that roaster last week - very high praise (he said that worked with him on his own personal blend that he roasts for him, talked about his experience/consultation work, etc, etc), but he's not an espresso guy, so I always take it with a grain of salt. I'll get over there to him sometime soon, though. 

In the meantime, I've been enjoying the workflow and results with a more measured (literally) brewing approach. It's got me thinking about an upgrade, too, and along the same lines - rotary (quiet and the ability to be plumbed), dual boiler, PID, probably flow control just because. I'm thinking a Profitec Pro 700, though I could see myself spending a few hundred more for the ECM version (same company, same internals, slightly better fit & finish, steam/hot water joysticks instead of knobs, etc). That's a big outlay, though, so it'll probably be in the spring at the earliest, so I'll have plenty of time to hand-wring.


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## Luftmensch (Oct 18, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> If I had to do it over again I might spend more as the upgrade in the quality of my morning routine has been huge.



Glad to hear it has been a large change for the better. It might be one of those experiences you have to try? Translating other peoples' experiences into your own world frame can be difficult. For us, having espresso at home has become as basic an assumption as having a well stocked fridge!! So long as we can afford to do so, we're going to keep doing it...

Like @WildBoar says, these machines can hold their value pretty well. If you upgrade/trade down the track you will recoup some of the original purchase. 




WPerry said:


> I'm thinking a Profitec Pro 700, though I could see myself spending a few hundred more for the ECM version (same company, same internals, slightly better fit & finish, steam/hot water joysticks instead of knobs, etc). That's a big outlay, though, so it'll probably be in the spring at the earliest, so I'll have plenty of time to hand-wring.



That is exactly what I would be looking at if I were getting an upgrade (I kind of am...). A nice cross between manual and configurable. Any more complexity would be too much coffee machine for me.


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## gregfisk (Oct 19, 2020)

Something to consider if you want to get into espresso at home and don’t want to spend a lot of money is buy an older used machine. This Brasília is the first machine we got and now use at our beach house. What’s great about it is it’s really easy to work on and parts are available and cheap. I do all my own repairs on this machine and it’s not difficult to figure out. The only downside to this machine and all small machines for that matter is the small boiler. Like all small sized machines the steamers run out of, well steam. Otherwise this machine makes a great cup.


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## Luftmensch (Oct 19, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> Like all small sized machines the steamers run out of, well steam



How big is your Brasilia boiler? 

A heat-exchange machine with a 1.8L boiler has plenty of choof for home use. Dual boilers will have a steam boiler at around 0.5L. These can easily froth milk for two people. Probably even four... 

I am curious how small boilers can be before they are limited.


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## gregfisk (Oct 19, 2020)

The Brasília Lady boiler is 300ml. It will froth milk for 2 lattes but that’s about it until you refill and reheat.


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## karaRobert (Apr 15, 2022)

My wife use this Philips 3200 automatic latte machine, which is pretty expensive in my eyes($800). Personally I don’t drink coffee much, but when I do, she whips it up and it does make a good cup.


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## podzap (Apr 17, 2022)

My problem with automatic machines is that I love them, however DeLonghi has the damn patent on side-loading water tanks and DeLonghi automatic machines are mediocre at best. Without a side-loading water tank, you can't keep the machine on a kitchen countertop that has a wall cabinet above it because there isn't enough clearance to lift the water tank in and out of the machine.

I'd really love to have an all stainless automatic machine with a high-quality burr grinder, high quality internals, analogue pressure gauges, etc, that has a side-loading water tank. Other option is getting one plumbed in, but that mostly narrows the choices for automatics down to Jura and they simply don't meet my desires as described in the previous sentence. If anybody knows something that I am missing, please let me know!


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