# The high drama thread



## ian




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## Luftmensch

Shakespeare on a plane?
Hash cookies and Beckett?


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## BillHanna

When is a vendor not a vendor?


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## M1k3

When the vendor isn't vending their vendable goods?


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## WildBoar

This thread hurts my feelings. I am going to report it and get everyone banned from KKF.


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## MSicardCutlery

Here you go

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/b4...660&height=880&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp

I actually worked in one place where we had a stack of 50 of these pinned to the wall in the HR guy's office. Mind you, in place of "whiner" those forms said "candy-ass"


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## Campbell

MSicardCutlery said:


> Here you go
> 
> https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/b4...660&height=880&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp
> 
> I actually worked in one place where we had a stack of 50 of these pinned to the wall in the HR guy's office. Mind you, in place of "whiner" those forms said "candy-ass"


This is awesome


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## Luftmensch

BillHanna said:


> When is a vendor not a vendor?



Vendor:


> /ˈvɛndə,ˈvɛndɔː/
> noun
> a person or company offering something for sale, especially a trader in the street.





I guess vending machines arent vendors... they are just machines... but what if they are a cybernetic organism? Living tissue over a metal endoskeleton?


Here is what Midjourney thinks "terminator working at a new york newspaper stand" would look like:



















and "terminator selling hotdogs on a New York street":


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## Michi

Let's talk about flipping.


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## BillHanna

Flipping is for eBay, not a forum.


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## HumbleHomeCook

Michi said:


> Let's talk about flipping.



Flipping you say?


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## Carl Kotte

This thread drives me macadramia nuts.


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## Jovidah

Drama thread? But we already have a TF thread...


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## ian

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Flipping you say?




Good commentary, but also just an amazing routine. Rare that you see someone execute so flawlessly, with such confidence and while having so much fun.


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## M1k3

Michi said:


> Let's talk about flipping.


Wrong thread.


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## Keith Sinclair

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Flipping you say?



Gadda be down under mate with a Flippen surfboard in the stands of a gymnastic show.


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## BillHanna

Spartendxb is the true Edge Lord. There will be no peace until you accept this.


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## HumbleHomeCook

BillHanna said:


> Spartendxb is the true Edge Lord. There will be no peace until you accept this.



Helluva salesman too!


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## BillHanna

For Sale

Basic *** Takefu knife that was looked at by the name on the box. Collectors item, bro.


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## M1k3

BillHanna said:


> For Sale
> 
> Basic *** Takefu knife that was looked at by the name on the box. Collectors item, bro.


I love Anryu also


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## ian

To be fair, it had a worse handle than stock. That’s gotta be worth something! Although actually, doesn’t a custom handle make it less of a collector’s item?

Anyway, I hear people collect stamps too. Freaking stamps, man. The world is a strange place.


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## Heckel7302

BillHanna said:


> For Sale
> 
> Basic *** Takefu knife that was looked at by the name on the box. Collectors item, bro.


But some small online knife shop listed it for a ridiculous price, so that's what they're worth now! In fact let me just round that price up to the nearest hundred...


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## Wagnum

I'd rather buy a Dao Vua than a TF


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## superworrier

BillHanna said:


> For Sale
> 
> Basic *** Takefu knife that was looked at by the name on the box. Collectors item, bro.


Lol I got nothing against this. It's obviously dumb but there have been people who have been paying these prices (probably mainly from a certain Facebook group/Ryky's fanbase). If it floats your boat to pay 3x MSRP for a low-tier knife with a stamp that doesn't even guarantee Anryu made it, feel free.


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## superworrier

Allegedly it sold.


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## jedy617

JNS annoys me. Maxims website is old, outdated, annoying to search through, if I want to try for a kato or shig I wish I could just sort all knives by newest or by profile. Even if you go to "new" those knives won't show up.

There are no scheduled drop times for the good stuff. Only reason I was able to get my workhorse was I luckily checked the forums at 5am. Also curious the margins on these knives. I know the katos and shigs used to be $4-$500 I wonder what the wholesale price is?

I know this is all complaints about luxury goods etc etc but it would be nice for JNS just to say katos dropping tomorrow at 2pm, instead of an Instagram post of a knife with a unicorn and a heart as a comment, and then randomly popping up at 4:53 am a week later. If knowing even approximate time beforehand it would allow people to block off a certain time in their calendar, and not reward bots/people that have page loggers.

/End rant


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## BillHanna

By not updating the site, he’s passing the savings on to you?


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## jedy617

BillHanna said:


> By not updating the site, he’s passing the savings on to you?


Yes a kato that could be $500 is now $1500 think of the savings!

And yes I still bought one. Yes I am dumb and would probably do it again. I am a sucker


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## superworrier

Better than the TF website where you could see everyone's address and message history


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## jedy617

I really don't need much. Just let me see all the products and let me sort by newest first, and be able to sort by blade shape. Hell even CKTG is better. I also asked about drop times, asking if that might be something to consider "sorry, no" was the answer. These have to be going to bots there is no way collectors are sitting refreshing for days in end. 

Is "hey shigs are going to drop at noon tomorrow" or even just saying general timeframe that much to ask for?


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## jedy617

superworrier said:


> Better than the TF website where you could see everyone's address and message history


You would think by now they would get a website that wasn't straight of 1999...or maybe not lol


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## superworrier

jedy617 said:


> You would think by now they would get a website that wasn't straight of 1999...or maybe not lol


For good grinds and modern website, they'll need to charge 200k yen


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## jedy617

superworrier said:


> For good grinds and modern website, they'll need to charge 200k yen


For those prices I better get Fujiwaras personal cigarette ash in my box, just like my JNS knives. That's value right there


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## M1k3

jedy617 said:


> For those prices I better get Fujiwaras personal cigarette ash in my box, just like my JNS knives. That's value right there


Don't forget the lingering smell


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## jedy617

M1k3 said:


> Don't forget the lingering smell


Of course it's not authentic without it. I say we bottle the stuff and sell it for $50 a bottle. "Eau de wabi sabi"


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## M1k3

jedy617 said:


> Of course it's not authentic without it. I say we bottle the stuff and sell it for $50 a bottle. "Eau de wabi sabi"


"l'odeur si deux paquets par jour"


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## esoo

jedy617 said:


> JNS annoys me. Maxims website is old, outdated, annoying to search through, if I want to try for a kato or shig I wish I could just sort all knives by newest or by profile. Even if you go to "new" those knives won't show up.
> 
> There are no scheduled drop times for the good stuff. Only reason I was able to get my workhorse was I luckily checked the forums at 5am. Also curious the margins on these knives. I know the katos and shigs used to be $4-$500 I wonder what the wholesale price is?
> 
> I know this is all complaints about luxury goods etc etc but it would be nice for JNS just to say katos dropping tomorrow at 2pm, instead of an Instagram post of a knife with a unicorn and a heart as a comment, and then randomly popping up at 4:53 am a week later. If knowing even approximate time beforehand it would allow people to block off a certain time in their calendar, and not reward bots/people that have page loggers.
> 
> /End rant



Maxim has mentioned before that he uses certain tools to defeat the bots. One of the things that I've noticed, is that he re-uses listings from the past to post items that have come into stock. This keeps stuff from showing up on the newest list which I suspect is one of his anti-bot tactics.

Edit: And for sorting stores like Crocker Cutlery and Ai and Om are in the same boat - let me filter out of stock, and maybe search on a blade type.


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## Delat

jedy617 said:


> For those prices I better get Fujiwaras personal cigarette ash in my box, just like my JNS knives. That's value right there



That’s the secret ingredient in the TF forging.


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## jedy617

esoo said:


> Maxim has mentioned before that he uses certain tools to defeat the bots. One of the things that I've noticed, is that he re-uses listings from the past to post items that have come into stock. This keeps stuff from showing up on the newest list which I suspect is one of his anti-bot tactics.
> 
> Edit: And for sorting stores like Crocker Cutlery and Ai and Om are in the same boat - let me filter out of stock, and maybe search on a blade type.


He's definitely not using any tools with that website lol


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## BillHanna

Oh word? We delete BST listings now? That’s interesting.


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## superworrier

esoo said:


> Maxim has mentioned before that he uses certain tools to defeat the bots. One of the things that I've noticed, is that he re-uses listings from the past to post items that have come into stock. This keeps stuff from showing up on the newest list which I suspect is one of his anti-bot tactics.
> 
> Edit: And for sorting stores like Crocker Cutlery and Ai and Om are in the same boat - let me filter out of stock, and maybe search on a blade type.


it will still show up on the page for Kato/Shig though I think, so it won't really do much.


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## esoo

superworrier said:


> it will still show up on the page for Kato/Shig though I think, so it won't really do much.



True. When I got a Shig, it had showed up first as out of stock and then a few hours it was in stock.


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## superworrier

TBF, anything is circumventable, but throwing in unexpected cases does often throw off bots (especially so if they're a script kiddie).


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## blokey

I love Watanabe website, it reminds me of making my own site with all the glittering fonts and pics back in the early days of internet. Also there's so little function that there no need to worry about any privacy issues.


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## HumbleHomeCook

So there's about as many ways of defining "best value knife" as there are members of this forum but even if you're not a rectangle type and ignoring the drama about the actual maker, the Watanabe Pro 180 nakiri is the best value I've encountered so far.

Oh, and the high volume Akifusa would be next.


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## bahamaroot

jedy617 said:


> ...kato or shig...Also curious the margins on these knives. I know the katos and shigs used to be $4-$500 I wonder what the wholesale price is?...


Maxim was so pissed about all the flipping at one point he talked about trying to get Kato to jack up his prices to help curb this some. I think he succeeded.


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## M1k3

BillHanna said:


> Oh word? We delete BST listings now? That’s interesting.


Sparten007 enters the chat.


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## esoo

BillHanna said:


> Oh word? We delete BST listings now? That’s interesting.



Dang, I missed this one.


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## jedy617

bahamaroot said:


> Maxim was so pissed about all the flipping at one point he talked about trying to get Kato to jack up his prices to help curb this some. I think he succeeded.


Dang that makes me a bit sad. Would have liked my Kato to be $800 instead of $1400 lol. I still think his drops benefit bots and people who use page monitors. Easier for a real human to get a knife when they actually know it is going to appear, vs having a program refresh the site every couple of seconds 24 hours a day


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## blokey

HumbleHomeCook said:


> So there's about as many ways of defining "best value knife" as there are members of this forum but even if you're not a rectangle type and ignoring the drama about the actual maker, the Watanabe Pro 180 nakiri is the best value I've encountered so far.
> 
> Oh, and the high volume Akifusa would be next.


Kochi 180 Nakiri is also nice, crazy thin on both end and excellent grind.


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## jedy617

It was on sale for me at tosho, but $280 ($360 USD at knives and stones) for my hatsukokoro komorebei wins best value proposition for me. Mix of mirror polish, natural stone kasumi and a great laser grind.

Wait. Isn't this the high drama thread? Where's the drama


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## MSicardCutlery

Fiiiine......I'll do it.


Die Hard is not a motherf***ing Christmas movie any more than Platoon is a nature documentary.

Edit: I have this debate annually. It may be my longest standing familial Christmas tradition.


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## enrico l

I like CKTG (within reason and more so in my earlier knife phases) and don’t know they get a lot of heat here.

Also why cant I type www.**************.com. What happened? Is mark actually Voldemort?


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## jedy617

enrico l said:


> I like CKTG (within reason and more so in my earlier knife phases) and don’t know they get a lot of heat here.
> 
> Also why cant I type www.**************.com. What happened? Is mark actually Voldemort?


I agree. Apparently the founder of this forum and mark the founder of CKTG had a spat. I withhold judgement as there is probably a lot of bias one way or another depending on what forum you read, hard to get the full picture.


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## blokey

Their custom service is kind slow and unresponsive unless you just bought stuff, I have sent them some questions regarding stuff they sell but did not get any reply. I've heard that they moderate their review sections so some of the bad ones didn't get posted but I can't be sure. Some of their stuff like CCK is more expensive than other vendors like action sales and some of their custom stuff is kind ridiculous. That being said they are just a vendor, you pay stuff and you get stuff, they don't force service and price gouging, most of their pricing are normal and they got some nice exclusives. Purchasing experience from JKI or CKC is much nicer but they are the exception not the norm in retails.


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## esoo

jedy617 said:


> I agree. Apparently the founder of this forum and mark the founder of CKTG had a spat. I withhold judgement as there is probably a lot of bias one way or another depending on what forum you read, hard to get the full picture.


My understanding is that Mark was using the forum to shill for his store. Doing things like using sock puppet accounts to bump up the apparent quality of his goods (at the time he was getting Lamson to make stuff for him).


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## jedy617

Hmm. Usually I wouldn't care that much shilling your own store, but yeah fake accounts that's no bueno. One of the only reasons I'd buy from them anyway is they still get Fujiyama in relatively frequently and at decent prices. Not that I really am in the market for any more "plain" FMs though anyway.


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## esoo

jedy617 said:


> Dang that makes me a bit sad. Would have liked my Kato to be $800 instead of $1400 lol. I still think his drops benefit bots and people who use page monitors. Easier for a real human to get a knife when they actually know it is going to appear, vs having a program refresh the site every couple of seconds 24 hours a day



I don't know how effective his tools are but he has said he has tools to deal with page watchers. I remember having that discussion with him but I can't find it right now.


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## esoo

jedy617 said:


> Dang that makes me a bit sad. Would have liked my Kato to be $800 instead of $1400 lol. I still think his drops benefit bots and people who use page monitors. Easier for a real human to get a knife when they actually know it is going to appear, vs having a program refresh the site every couple of seconds 24 hours a day



Ok - Found what I was looking for: Knife findings

Guy had a page watcher and missed two Kato drops. Down a few posts, Maxim pops in to mention that he had software.


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## enrico l

One of our members definitely fkd up and owes some people an apology. Its a bad look to all of us.


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## jedy617

The guy is a tool and full of himself (not kamon) In DM's I was asking why he went for a certain hardness, being very polite and saying how much I loved his work.

What I got in response was "I know what I'm doing, I bought $14,000 of this steel". That's called hubris. No wonder his name is "Xerxes" lol.

What that post also doesn't show @KAMON Knives is user experience. In the pocket knife world, we have been using magnacut a decent amount longer than chef knofe users. CATRA tests are only one part of the story. When increasing hardness, you also get greater edge stability, and one is able to drop down the angle of your cutting edge mich lower without deformation. As a user, I have 62hrc magnacut. I also have 64.5 custom heat treated magnacut. The higher hardness was better to sharpen and lasted longer edge retention wise.


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## Lars

This thread is really starting to fulfill it's purpose..


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## jedy617

Look at the date when this picture is posted. This is when I had my first magnacut knife made. I can basically promise that I have had at least 6 months of using, and sharpening magnacut before any chef knife makers in Europe were using it.


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## Hockey3081

jedy617 said:


> The guy is a tool and full of himself (not kamon) In DM's I was asking why he went for a certain hardness, being very polite and saying how much I loved his work.
> 
> What I got in response was "I know what I'm doing, I bought $14,000 of this steel". That's called hubris. No wonder his name is "Xerxes" lol.
> 
> What that post also doesn't show @KAMON Knives is user experience. In the pocket knife world, we have been using magnacut a decent amount longer than chef knofe users. CATRA tests are only one part of the story. When increasing hardness, you also get greater edge stability, and one is able to drop down the angle of your cutting edge mich lower without deformation. As a user, I have 62hrc magnacut. I also have 64.5 custom heat treated magnacut. The higher hardness was better to sharpen and lasted longer edge retention wise.



In a previous thread you said “in the DM's I was literally sucking him off”; maybe consider using less teeth next time. Clearly it wasn’t good for either of you.


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## jedy617

Hockey3081 said:


> In a previous thread you said “in the DM's I was literally sucking him off”, maybe consider using less teeth next time. Clearly it wasn’t good for either of you.


I am very gentle, lots of experience.


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## Delat

jedy617 said:


> The guy is a tool and full of himself (not kamon) In DM's I was asking why he went for a certain hardness, being very polite and saying how much I loved his work.
> 
> What I got in response was "I know what I'm doing, I bought $14,000 of this steel". That's called hubris. No wonder his name is "Xerxes" lol.
> 
> What that post also doesn't show @KAMON Knives is user experience. In the pocket knife world, we have been using magnacut a decent amount longer than chef knofe users. CATRA tests are only one part of the story. When increasing hardness, you also get greater edge stability, and one is able to drop down the angle of your cutting edge mich lower without deformation. As a user, I have 62hrc magnacut. I also have 64.5 custom heat treated magnacut. The higher hardness was better to sharpen and lasted longer edge retention wise.



Less competition for a Xerxes so I think that worked out well for everyone.


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## jedy617

Win win for everyone!


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## ian

Heh, so this conversation was with Xerxes? Yea… humility is always a good approach. It’s cool that you’ve used magnacut pocket knives for a while, but I’m not sure that’s a good reason to tell a maker of his reputation how to make a chef’s knife. I bet he would have responded differently if it’d been proposed more as a question, though.

But also…. I don’t think a customer gets to decree what a maker builds for them. “Custom” means the maker is willing to be flexible in what they make, but they get to set the limits of the flexibility. They’re not servants who are obligated to make whatever we want as long as we pay for it, and they shouldn’t have to defend their process at length in custom transactions.


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## jedy617

Also,


ian said:


> Heh, so this conversation was with Xerxes? Yea… humility is always a good approach. It’s cool that you’ve used magnacut pocket knives for a while, but I’m not sure that’s a good reason to tell a maker of his reputation how to make a chef’s knife. I bet he would have responded differently if it’d been proposed more as a question, though.
> 
> But also…. I don’t think a customer gets to decree what a maker builds for them. “Custom” means the maker is willing to be flexible in what they make, but they get to set the limits of the flexibility. They’re not servants who are obligated to make whatever we want as long as we pay for it, and they shouldn’t have to defend their process at length in custom transactions.


So, my original interaction was actually a question "why 62", there was never a start of telling a maker how to do anything. I am actually more socially inept than what I portray myself at times on here lol. The response to "why 62" was "it's good, I know what I'm doing". Which no, no it isn't. I'm inviting my good buddy in here who has used and tested more magnacut at different HRCs than anyone. Hope he can provide some good perspective.


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## Bico Doce

jedy617 said:


> As a user, I have 62hrc magnacut. I also have 64.5 custom heat treated magnacut. The higher hardness was better to sharpen and lasted longer edge retention wise.


I think if you stuck with exactly this statement in your communication it would have been better for both of you. 

It’s ok to disagree on a marginal difference that comes down to personal preference. It’s not ok to make it personal and attack a respected maker.

Your opinion is valid and I welcome when people share their experiences but don’t expect everyone to value your opinion . 

If Jannis doesn’t value your opinion that doesn’t make him a bad person or maker. It also doesn’t mean your opinion doesn’t have value. This whole thing really spiraled out of control and it’s not good for any of the parties involved or the knife community . 

Jannis is a good dude imho which is a based on my experience buying a few knives from him.


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## jedy617

Bico Doce said:


> I think if you stuck with exactly this statement in your communication it would have been better for both of you.
> 
> It’s ok to disagree on a marginal difference that comes down to personal preference. It’s not ok to make it personal and attack a respected maker.
> 
> Your opinion is valid and I welcome when people share their experiences but don’t expect everyone to value your opinion .
> 
> If Jannis doesn’t value your opinion that doesn’t make him a bad person or maker. It also doesn’t mean your opinion has value. This whole thing really spiraled out of control and it’s not good for any of the parties involved or the knife community .
> 
> Jannis is a good dude imho which is a based on my experience buying a few knives from him.


So, I did stick with that statement. After explaining how I have used close to a dozen knives in magnacut at various harnesses, and presented perfectly reasonable data from Larrin himself, he hit me with the "this is ridiculous, and the ever famous "I ordered a lot of money in this steel so I know what I am doing"". That is not a reasonable way for a maker to portray himself.

There was no "attack". After he gave me the "this is ridiculous" after sharing a toughness vs hrc graph, I did say how dumb his approach was.


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## Bico Doce

jedy617 said:


> So, I did stick with that statement. After explaining how I have used close to a dozen knives in magnacut at various harnesses, and presented perfectly reasonable data from Larrin himself, he hit me with the "this is ridiculous, and the ever famous "I ordered a lot of money in this steel so I know what I am doing"". That is not a reasonable way for a maker to portray himself.


Then just walk away and don’t make it personal. Be the better man. It’s a shame that you’ve never used a xerxes (I’m assuming) because if you had I would imagine this interaction would have been different.

He’s truly a master smith in every sense of the word. I think he’s earned the right to a bit of “hubris” as you put it. His workhorse grind is the best I’ve ever used and probably would put that kato wh to shame.


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## Mlan

jedy617 said:


> Also,
> So, my original interaction was actually a question "why 62", there was never a start of telling a maker how to do anything. I am actually more socially inept than what I portray myself at times on here lol. The response to "why 62" was "it's good, I know what I'm doing". Which no, no it isn't. I'm inviting my good buddy in here who has used and tested more magnacut at different HRCs than anyone. Hope he can provide some good perspective.


Why is the first comment on his post then “awesome but needs higher hrc”?That doesn’t sound like a question to me. That’s a very direct statement.


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## jedy617

Bico Doce said:


> Then just walk away and don’t make it personal. Be the better man. It’s a shame that you’ve never used a xerxes (I’m assuming) because if you had I would imagine this interaction would have been different.
> 
> He’s truly a master smith in every sense of the word. I think he’s earned the right to a bit of “hubris” as you put it. His workhorse grind is the best I’ve ever used and probably would put that kato wh to shame.


But at least in magnacut you are paying over a thousand dollars for a knife with a sub optimal heat treat. It's just crazy to me. 

I'm not sure if that was supposed to be an insult to me or the kato...I openly said that you could get better cutting knives in the $3-$400 range lol. I think also the disconnect is "master smith". Most "master smiths" are not used to working with PM steels, and their heat treat.


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## jedy617

Mlan said:


> Why is the first comment on his post then “awesome but needs higher hrc”?That doesn’t sound like a question to me. That’s a very direct statement.


Oh, my apologies, I misremembered my exact wording. Regardless of that fact I stick with what I said originally. 62HRC magnacut for a knife costing over $1000 is a crime against humanity. I would say that again and again.


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## KAMON Knives

jedy617 said:


> The guy is a tool and full of himself (not kamon) In DM's I was asking why he went for a certain hardness, being very polite and saying how much I loved his work.
> 
> What I got in response was "I know what I'm doing, I bought $14,000 of this steel". That's called hubris. No wonder his name is "Xerxes" lol.
> 
> What that post also doesn't show @KAMON Knives is user experience. In the pocket knife world, we have been using magnacut a decent amount longer than chef knofe users. CATRA tests are only one part of the story. When increasing hardness, you also get greater edge stability, and one is able to drop down the angle of your cutting edge mich lower without deformation. As a user, I have 62hrc magnacut. I also have 64.5 custom heat treated magnacut. The higher hardness was better to sharpen and lasted longer edge retention wise.



I want to state right away that I made my IG story not knowing who Jannis argued with. And even if I knew, I would've still decided for the story not mentioning anyone. I don't think blaming someone personally for a statement is of big help. It only pours oil into the fire. Jannis chose a similar approach and I appreciate that a lot. Keeping things not personal, but fact based, is important. Jannis quoted a message and I trust him that this is an actual message he didn't modify. That's mainly what I made a statement to as I'm very certain that such topics should never be approached with an "I have all the facts and I know better than you" attitude. I had people do that to me which just didn't see an angle I later showed them. A side to the topic they weren't considering. And it happened to myself as well, learning that I often don't see certain aspects no matter how sure I am about a topic, is important. It thought me that it's better to ask a question, get an explanation, and maybe challange that explanation with another question if applicable, OR learn something I didn't know. 

More specifically about the technical topic here: I don't know magnacut very well. I've never worked with it. I have one knife made out of it (from Magnitosferaio on IG). Other than that I can't speak about the steel personally. But... Jannis Is one of the few guys out there I'd go to if I needed steel advice. I think you misunderstand how much knowledge Jannis has. Historical as well as in modern steels. His reasoning behind his HT decisions sounds logical as well. So don't take it personally, I haven't seen what you guys wrote in the DM's, but judging by what I saw in his post, he is not unreasonable with his decisions and explanation behind it. I wouldn't trust a lot of people to challange them to be honest. I personally would be interested what Larrin would say to it, but that's just out of curiosity. Even if Larrin had another opinion on the optimal hardness for a certain task for magnacut, I'd still think he would support Jannis's reasoning in this case. In other words I doubt that Jannis is wrong with what he is stating. Those kind of decisions are a lot about preferences and use case too. There is no universal true answer. 

I'm curios about a detail you mentioned though. You say that you have two magnacut knives where one has 62hrc and the other one has 64,5hrc. The harder one sharpens easier, yet holds the edge longer. How would you explain that?


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## Bico Doce

jedy617 said:


> But at least in magnacut you are paying over a thousand dollars for a knife with a sub optimal heat treat. It's just crazy to me.
> 
> I'm not sure if that was supposed to be an insult to me or the kato...I openly said that you could get better cutting knives in the $3-$400 range lol. I think also the disconnect is "master smith". Most "master smiths" are not used to working with PM steels, and their heat treat.


No insult meant to you or kato. I’m not trying to put you down or anything. I just meant it at Jannis is good as what he does.

Suboptimal heat treatment isn’t a fair statement. It’s not to your preference which is cool to state but it is within spec and Jannis explained why he chose 62.5.

It seems like you have a monster chip on your shoulder influencing your perception/interpretation of what people say to you. Just assume the best in others and try not take everything as a personal attack on your worth. You have a killer collection and some great knife knowledge to share just drop some of the anger and you’ll be good.


----------



## jedy617

KAMON Knives said:


> I want to state right away that I made my IG story not knowing who Jannis argued with. And even if I knew, I would've still decided for the story not mentioning anyone. I don't think blaming someone personally for a statement is of big help. It only pours oil into the fire. Jannis chose a similar approach and I appreciate that a lot. Keeping things not personal, but fact based, is important. Jannis quoted a message and I trust him that this is an actual message he didn't modify. That's mainly what I made a statement to as I'm very certain that such topics should never be approached with an "I have all the facts and I know better than you" attitude. I had people do that to me which just didn't see an angle I later showed them. A side to the topic they weren't considering. And it happened to myself as well, learning that I often don't see certain aspects no matter how sure I am about a topic, is important. It thought me that it's better to ask a question, get an explanation, and maybe challange that explanation with another question if applicable, OR learn something I didn't know.
> 
> More specifically about the technical topic here: I don't know magnacut very well. I've never worked with it. I have one knife made out of it (from Magnitosferaio on IG). Other than that I can't speak about the steel personally. But... Jannis Is one of the few guys out there I'd go to if I needed steel advice. I think you misunderstand how much knowledge Jannis has. Historical as well as in modern steels. His reasoning behind his HT decisions sounds logical as well. So don't take it personally, I haven't seen what you guys wrote in the DM's, but judging by what I saw in his post, he is not unreasonable with his decisions and explanation behind it. I wouldn't trust a lot of people to challange them to be honest. I personally would be interested what Larrin would say to it, but that's just out of curiosity. Even if Larrin had another opinion on the optimal hardness for a certain task for magnacut, I'd still think he would support Jannis's reasoning in this case. In other words I doubt that Jannis is wrong with what he is stating. Those kind of decisions are a lot about preferences and use case too. There is no universal true answer.
> 
> I'm curios about a detail you mentioned though. You say that you have two magnacut knives where one has 62hrc and the other one has 64,5hrc. The harder one sharpens easier, yet holds the edge longer. How would you explain that?


So, I am bringing on my friend here, @Transparent Knives who has worked with more magnacut than any other individual maker. I promise you he has made dozens of blades before Jannis has even received his steel. From my perspective, he is the maker who gave the response of "I am a maker so I know better than you, I bought more steel blah blah blah". I believe I said the harder one sharpens better, not easier yes? The burr formation and removal process was easier on the higher hardness magnacut.


----------



## jedy617

Bico Doce said:


> No insult meant to you or kato. I’m not trying to put you down or anything. I just meant it at Jannis is good as what he does.
> 
> Suboptimal heat treatment isn’t a fair statement. It’s not to your preference which is cool to state but it is within spec and Jannis explained why he chose 62.5.
> 
> It seems like you have a monster chip on your shoulder influencing your perception/interpretation of what people say to you. Just assume the best in others and try not take everything as a personal attack ion your worth. You have a killer collection and some great knife knowledge to share just drop some of the anger and you’ll be good.


Thanks. I was angry after Jannis gave me the response of "I know more than you because I purchased more steel". For sure. I ripped into him. But yeah 62hrc is totally sub-optimal. I know I paint this certain picture of myself on this forum, but there is a reason I have been collecting knives for a long long time, and this has been (I believe?) my only "run in" or "fight" with a maker. But I am at a stage now where I am comfortable enough to not accept BS responses, and I felt like I got BS responses.


----------



## Bico Doce

jedy617 said:


> Thanks. I was angry after Jannis gave me the response of "I know more than you because I purchased more steel". For sure. I ripped into him. But yeah 62hrc is totally sub-optimal. I know I paint this certain picture of myself on this forum, but there is a reason I have been collecting knives for a long long time, and this has been (I believe?) my only "run in" or "fight" with a maker. But I am at a stage now where I am comfortable enough to not accept BS responses, and I felt like I got BS responses.


I can see how Jannis didn’t give you a great response and maybe he shouldn’t have even responded if he couldn’t provide something more than I don’t have to explain myself to you. He obviously had a follow up response that was very thorough explaining the cost-benefit trade off which didn’t make sense to him for magnacut. He frequently uses PMs and he will frequently heat treat to 65hrc. 

Just don’t expect the world to give you the same attention and credence you give yourself. It is reasonable for someone with his platform to feel attacked by a relentless audience that has very little skin in the knife game compared to him. Have some empathy and look at it from his perspective.


----------



## M1k3

jedy617 said:


> Look at the date when this picture is posted. This is when I had my first magnacut knife made. I can basically promise that I have had at least 6 months of using, and sharpening magnacut before any chef knife makers in Europe were using it.
> 
> View attachment 202006


Are your books open? You sound like you really know what you're talking about.


----------



## Delat

jedy617 said:


> Thanks. I was angry after Jannis gave me the response of "I know more than you because I purchased more steel". For sure. I ripped into him. But yeah 62hrc is totally sub-optimal. I know I paint this certain picture of myself on this forum, but there is a reason I have been collecting knives for a long long time, and this has been (I believe?) my only "run in" or "fight" with a maker. But I am at a stage now where I am comfortable enough to not accept BS responses, and I felt like I got BS responses.



So you knew the right answer going in and weren't willing to consider then or now that Jannis might have solid reasons for his heat treat?

Perhaps Jannis is also comfortable not accepting BS responses?


----------



## jedy617

Enjoy folks:


----------



## jedy617

Delat said:


> So you knew the right answer going in and weren't willing to consider then or now that Jannis might have solid reasons for his heat treat?
> 
> Perhaps Jannis is also comfortable not accepting BS responses?


No, the goal was to message the maker and perhaps give them a perspective on something that they did not already have. I'm seeing this beautiful Damascus blade with a sub-optimal heat treatment and I think it was just a shame and wanted to give them my point of view.

I was hoping they would be down for a discussion where at the end they thought hmm, maybe I will run it a bit harder, that's some good reasoning! But nope I got the "you are the consumer I am the maker, I know best"


----------



## jedy617

M1k3 said:


> Are your books open? You sound like you really know what you're talking about.


No, but @Transparent Knives has a lottery style for his 65hrc magnacut knives. You can try and get one but it might be a few years.


----------



## jedy617

Bico Doce said:


> I can see how Jannis didn’t give you a great response and maybe he shouldn’t have even responded if he couldn’t provide something more than I don’t have to explain myself to you. He obviously had a follow up response that was very thorough explaining the cost-benefit trade off which didn’t make sense to him for magnacut. He frequently uses PMs and he will frequently heat treat to 65hrc.
> 
> Just don’t expect the world to give you the same attention and credence you give yourself. It is reasonable for someone with his platform to feel attacked by a relentless audience that has very little skin in the knife game compared to him. Have some empathy and look at it from his perspective.


I try to have as much empathy as possible with makers. Like I said, this was my only bad interaction after...is it 7-8 years of using and collecting? I'm waiting on 3-4 customs at the moment and most of them are months or years late. I tell the makers as long as you communicate you can take as long as you like.

I have an apex ultra gyuto, I asked the maker what hardness he ran it at. It was lower than I would have preferred. They said it was their first batch, they followed the recommended heat treat and I said "great" and we all had a great time. It's the fact that I can't know anything as a consumer attitude that bothers me.


----------



## KAMON Knives

jedy617 said:


> So, I am bringing on my friend here, @Transparent Knives who has worked with more magnacut than any other individual maker. I promise you he has made dozens of blades before Jannis has even received his steel. From my perspective, he is the maker who gave the response of "I am a maker so I know better than you, I bought more steel blah blah blah". I believe I said the harder one sharpens better, not easier yes? The burr formation and removal process was easier on the higher hardness magnacut.



I see and it's true. You said better, not easier. My fault. 

Still Jannis reasoning bears itself on Larrins numbers as he said, right? I don't doubt that you and the maker you quoted got a lot of experience. But is it experience backed by numbers? Backed by testing? Numbers that challange Larrins results? Because if Larrins results are true, then Jannis's argument can't be wiped off the table. It's valid in that. It might not meet your preferences, but it's not like technically completely wrong, right? 

Also I can see how Jannis might have had a bad day or something and may have responded in a way that didn't satisfy you but even if the response would've been positive I wonder what you thought would be the outcome? Jannis won't just completely throw his reasoning out of the window for a, to him, random guy that says he knows better. I think one can't expect that. 
But... If your argument is backed by testing and numbers like the ones from Larrin, Jannis bears his decision on, then he might reconsider. He is a very reasonable guy.


----------



## jedy617

KAMON Knives said:


> I see and it's true. You said better, not easier. My fault.
> 
> Still Jannis reasoning bears itself on Larrins numbers as he said, right? I don't doubt that you and the maker you quoted got a lot of experience. But is it experience backed by numbers? Backed by testing? Numbers that challange Larrins results? Because if Larrins results are true, then Jannis's argument can't be wiped off the table. It's valid in that. It might not meet your preferences, but it's not like technically completely wrong, right?
> 
> Also I can see how Jannis might have had a bad day or something and may have responded in a way that didn't satisfy you but even if the response would've been positive I wonder what you thought would be the outcome? Jannis won't just completely throw his reasoning out of the window for a, to him, random guy that says he knows better. I think one can't expect that.
> But... If your argument is backed by testing and numbers like the ones from Larrin, Jannis bears his decision on, then he might reconsider. He is a very reasonable guy.


Hey I'm currently running errands but if you are actually interested in the edge retention vs toughness and scientific date please watch Brian (transparent knives) latest video. He usually follows larrins advice to the tee about everything, and has had many many talks with Larrin over the years. However, Brian and larrin do disagree a tad about "optimal" for magnacut. Larrin does see even 60-62 hrc magnacut as in spec. However, the point is that is what you should/cold be expecting for a $200 production knife and not an expensive custom piece. Again, look at what Devin runs his magnacut at.


----------



## DrEriksson

jedy617 said:


> But yeah 62hrc is totally sub-optimal.



”So, my original interaction was actually a question "why 62", there was never a start of telling a maker how to do anything.”

You won’t tell a maker how to do anything, but you also say that they’re doing it incorrectly. Honestly, seeing this interaction, I’m pretty sure it’s a “you problem”.


----------



## Bico Doce

jedy617 said:


> I try to have as much empathy as possible with makers. Like I said, this was my only bad interaction after...is it 7-8 years of using and collecting? I'm waiting on 3-4 customs at the moment and most of them are months or years late. I tell the makers as long as you communicate you can take as long as you like.
> 
> I have an apex ultra gyuto, I asked the maker what hardness he ran it at. It was lower than I would have preferred. They said it was their first batch, they followed the recommended heat treat and I said "great" and we all had a great time. It's the fact that I can't know anything as a consumer attitude that bothers me.


If someone doesn’t want or value your opinion it doesn’t make it a fact. Just be ok with it. I’m starting to see there is no talking you off this ledge. It sounds exhausting living life that way. 

I thought the video you shared had some good points but it was a bit heated and felt unnecessarily charged with emotion. It’s Friday, everybody just needs to chill a bit.


----------



## Delat

jedy617 said:


> Enjoy folks:




Are the cardboard numbers he uses from Larrin’s testing data?


----------



## Luuuukeeeeeeee

jedy617 said:


> The guy is a tool and full of himself (not xerxes)



I fixed it


----------



## jedy617

Bico Doce said:


> If someone doesn’t want or value your opinion it doesn’t make it a fact. Just be ok with it. I’m starting to see there is no talking you off this ledge. It sounds exhausting living life that way.
> 
> I thought the video you shared had some good points but it was a bit heated and felt unnecessarily charged with emotion. It’s Friday, everybody just needs to chill a bit.


Again, I want to state on the record it's totally "ok" to run any steel however hard you want it. He could have told me it was 58hrc for all I care. I just felt talked down to because I'm a consumer you know? I have a few knives from my favorite makers that are lower spec than I prefer. Have never said a word to them about it.


----------



## jedy617

Delat said:


> Are the cardboard numbers he uses from Larrin’s testing data?


I invited Brian on here, he just made an introduction and waiting on mod approval. Any questions can. Be directed to him and he can give a very detailed response. Apologies out running errands currently!


----------



## jedy617

Luuuukeeeeeeee said:


> I fixed it


Fixed must mean a different thing in your language mate!


----------



## Mariner

> I try to have as much empathy as possible with makers. Like I said, this was my only bad interaction after...is it 7-8 years of using and collecting?



Perhaps from your perspective this is true, but makers describing their interactions with you do not feel the same way.


----------



## jedy617

Delat said:


> Are the cardboard numbers he uses from Larrin’s testing data?


Many people in the community have tested knives from Brian, outpost76 had some good cut tests with some steels he has heat treated: https://youtube.com/channel/UCI_ZXbN06A7W937hKKnUfqQ


----------



## jedy617

Mariner said:


> Perhaps from your perspective this is true, but makers describing their interactions with you do not feel the same way.


I would say "maker" not makers. If they do not have a pleasurable experience selling or making for me, then they must be lying, because they all still take my new orders and tell me nice things. Which is fine too.


----------



## tally-ho




----------



## jedy617

tally-ho said:


>


This guy gets it. Walking away is too hard. We can bring our phones to bed!!


----------



## Hockey3081

jedy617 said:


> Thanks. I was angry after Jannis gave me the response of "I know more than you because I purchased more steel". For sure. I ripped into him. But yeah 62hrc is totally sub-optimal. I know I paint this certain picture of myself on this forum, but there is a reason I have been collecting knives for a long long time, and this has been (I believe?) my only "run in" or "fight" with a maker. But I am at a stage now where I am comfortable enough to not accept BS responses, and I felt like I got BS responses.



Jannis posted something, you _told_ him it needs to be harder. From that point he has no obligation to give you a response, much less a response that meets whatever standards you have set. If you’re saying this is your “online” personality, you come across like one of those guys who hits on a girl, she turns him down and his response is “whatever, you’re fat and ugly anyway”.


----------



## Mariner




----------



## jedy617

Mariner said:


> View attachment 202035


Good meme, but I do know about using that steel at least!


----------



## DrEriksson

jedy617 said:


> Good meme, but I do know about using that steel at least!



What’s your OPY?


----------



## Barmoley

KAMON Knives said:


> I personally would be interested what Larrin would say to it, but that's just out of curiosity.


Larrin already opined on the subject previously What is the Best Hardness for MagnaCut Knives? - Knife Steel Nerds

Basically as long as the heat treat was done well, chasing exact numbers is misguided. Well done heat treat that ended up in 62.5 vs 64 would most likely be unnoticeable for the end user, unless the end user was very methodical in testing different angles, materials, forces and failure mechanisms. Given pretty erratic use of kitchen knives and chaos of free hand sharpening it seems very unlikely most would notice any difference in +-1-2 HRC points.

Sounds like a totally blown out of proportion conflict that is perfect for this thread.


----------



## jedy617

Hockey3081 said:


> Jannis posted something, you _told_ him it needs to be harder. From that point he has no obligation to give you a response, much less a response that meets whatever standards you have set. If you’re saying this is your “online” personality, you come across like one of those guys who hits on a girl, she turns him down and his response is “whatever, you’re fat and ugly anyway”.


Not that kind of guy. I think his grind and fit and finish look fantastic. But he needs to up the hardness. Sorry it's true even if he's a great maker.


----------



## slickmamba

Barmoley said:


> Larrin already opined on the subject previously What is the Best Hardness for MagnaCut Knives? - Knife Steel Nerds
> 
> Basically as long as the heat treat was done well, chasing exact numbers is misguided. Well done heat treat that ended up in 62.5 vs 64 would most likely be unnoticeable for the end user, unless the end user was very methodical in testing different angles, materials, forces and failure mechanisms. Given pretty erratic use of kitchen knives and chaos of free hand sharpening it seems very unlikely most would notice any difference in +-1-2 HRC points.
> 
> Sounds like a totally blown out of proportion conflict that is perfect for this thread.


He clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about compared to our esteemed pro edc magnacut user and maker friend


----------



## jedy617

Barmoley said:


> Larrin already opined on the subject previously What is the Best Hardness for MagnaCut Knives? - Knife Steel Nerds
> 
> Basically as long as the heat treat was done well, chasing exact numbers is misguided. Well done heat treat that ended up in 62.5 vs 64 would most likely be unnoticeable for the end user, unless the end user was very methodical in testing different angles, materials, forces and failure mechanisms. Given pretty erratic use of kitchen knives and chaos of free hand sharpening it seems very unlikely most would notice any difference in +-1-2 HRC points.
> 
> Sounds like a totally blown out of proportion conflict that is perfect for this thread.


Yeah, that whole topic actually started by Brian complaining about sub-optimal HRC. If you watch the video that Brian posted on his instagram (probably going to be ignored or skipped through by most) you can actually see that 62.5 vs 64 hrc is a huge difference. HRC points are exponential. 1-2 HRC is HUGE. We have data from real world usage IE cutting non impregnated cardboard all across the board at different hardnesses.

Again, this is for paying OVER A THOUSAND DOLLARS for a knife. Everything needs to be at the highest level. 62 Magnacut is fine for a $200 production knife. Not this.


----------



## jedy617

slickmamba said:


> He clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about compared to our esteemed pro edc magnacut user and maker friend


You joke, but in the community there has been a lot of pushback on that video and the message it puts out. Larrin has to give those acceptable ranges because of a couple things. Grinding lower HRC magnacut is much more cost efficient for a large production scale. A reason for giving an "Acceptable range" is also for batch heat treatment where it is impossible to get every knife to exact spec. And finally there are makers who want maximum toughness for lets say a camp knife, but again....different usage case compared to us.


----------



## blokey

Interesting topic, it kind got way too heated, personally I would want to know if the different things EDC and kitchen knives are cutting would contributes to the different attitudes towards preferred heat treatment, I've seen vastly different HT in knives for different purposes.


----------



## jedy617

I really am doing everyone a favor. You would all be complaining too if your precious FM's were ran at 59hrc for white 1 lol. At the price point, no one should put up with worse performance. Use a different steel if you don't want to come close to the peak of that steels performance.


----------



## jedy617

blokey said:


> Interesting topic, it kind got way too heated, personally I would want to know if the different things EDC and kitchen knives are cutting would contributes to the different attitudes towards preferred heat treatment, I've seen vastly different HT in knives for different purposes.


That is why I want to get brian in here, he also has done quite a few chef knives in PM steels along with fixed blades and folder blades. He could provide much more knowledgeable responses with maker experience to back it up.

Also while we are on the topic, HRC is very important but not everything. Brian had a great video testing equally hard M390, with different heat treats to test performance. He is revamping his youtube so that video is deleted, but he might still have clips from his youtube.


----------



## blokey

Should we set up a twitch debate? Invite Larrin as moderator. @Larrin


----------



## MSicardCutlery

blokey said:


> Should we set up a twitch debate? Invite Larrin as moderator. @Larrin


How about a boxing match?

With debate between rounds.


----------



## blokey

MSicardCutlery said:


> How about a boxing match?


For you metal nerds I suggest a HEMA match, bring your own sword!


----------



## jedy617

blokey said:


> Should we set up a twitch debate? Invite Larrin as moderator. @Larrin


Sure but I'm not debating I'm not a metallurgist. My boy has all the facts. Anyway doesn't need to be on twitch it's happening live now on Instagram


----------



## stringer

jedy617 said:


> Not that kind of guy. I think his grind and fit and finish look fantastic. But he needs to up the hardness. Sorry it's true even if he's a great maker.


What do you know about using chef knives? Have you ever worked in a pro kitchen?


----------



## Barclid

Jedy has a rich history of being an insufferable twat. From pulling "what's your education level" in an argument in the r/chefknives Discord, to refusing to accept constructive criticism on his first wallet posted to r/leathercraft: 

He's a man who can't conceive that his opinion isn't the best one out there, and engaging in discussion with him is just inviting a headache.


----------



## Hockey3081

blokey said:


> For you metal nerds I suggest a HEMA match, bring your own sword!




Guy with the highest HRC wins!!!


----------



## superworrier

The interesting takeway here is that CATRA testing is not really linear to edge retention on other materials. I.e. 2x CATRA != 2x edge retention on cardboard. After watching Larrin's video, it's more clear: CATRA tests wear resistance, which is just one mode of edge dulling.


----------



## jedy617

Barclid said:


> Jedy has a rich history of being an insufferable twat. From pulling "what's your education level" in an argument in the r/chefknives Discord, to refusing to accept constructive criticism on his first wallet posted to r/leathercraft:
> 
> He's a man who can't conceive that his opinion isn't the best one out there, and engaging in discussion with him is just inviting a headache.



Wowie. Anyway did a lot of growing in 5 years. Still very proud of that wallet! I don't know why we gotta go internet sleuthing just because I want a knife maker to run his knives at a higher hrc. Pretty cringe you have to google me. Regardless, going to be reporting you to the mods for that ad hominem, so enjoy trying to hurt my feelings for the time being.


----------



## Barclid

jedy617 said:


> Wowie. Anyway did a lot of growing in 5 years. Still very proud of that wallet! I don't know why we gotta go internet sleuthing just because I want a knife maker to run his knives at a higher hrc. Pretty cringe you have to google me. Regardless, going to be reporting you to the mods for that ad hominem, so enjoy trying to hurt my feelings for the time being.



Is 3 years ago recent enough? I did no real sleuthing - these are things people have at the forefront of their minds when they hear about others interacting with you. The name "Jedy" is enough to dredge this **** up.


----------



## Mariner

jedy617 said:


> I would say "maker" not makers. If they do not have a pleasurable experience selling or making for me, then they must be lying, because they all still take my new orders and tell me nice things. Which is fine too.


"It’s super weird how everyone says it’s not a real relationship, but she always seems to be okay with it and thanks me for my money afterward"


----------



## blokey

Come on guys, we don't have to resort to attack on personal characters here, it's already as heated as it can be now.


----------



## jedy617

blokey said:


> Come on guys, we don't have to resort to attack on personal characters here, it's already as heated as it can be now.


Appreciate it! That was a long time ago and maybe things were not handled the best by me. At the age I am at, 5-6 years is a lot of time to grow and develop as a person.

I'm just a man out here who saw a beautiful knife, and was sad that it had lower HRC than expected. That is it.


----------



## stringer

jedy617 said:


> I was muted in that subreddit for posting a knife in the chef knife swap while also showing it off on the chef knife subreddit. One of the mods who was arguing me looked like a hick trump supporter. So I went into the discord and flamed em, what else would you have me do?


Well there is more than one kind of troll out there


----------



## jedy617

Mariner said:


> "It’s super weird how everyone says it’s not a real relationship, but she always seems to be okay with it and thanks me for my money afterward"


Yeah that would be weird. But she still gives me the product baby!


----------



## Barclid

blokey said:


> Come on guys, we don't have to resort to attack on personal characters here, it's already as heated as it can be now.





jedy617 said:


> I was muted in that subreddit for posting a knife in the chef knife swap while also showing it off on the chef knife subreddit. One of the mods who was arguing me looked like a hick trump supporter. So I went into the discord and flamed em, what else would you have me do?


Zap is quite possibly one of the most liberal people I know, and he was pretty reasonable, I thought. Chat log is above if you care to revisit it?


----------



## slickmamba

jedy617 said:


> I was muted in that subreddit for posting a knife in the chef knife swap while also showing it off on the chef knife subreddit. One of the mods who was arguing me looked like a hick trump supporter. So I went into the discord and flamed em, what else would you have me do?


Funny cause you seem to share a lot of qualities, the humblest man alive being one of them as seen in this thread.

Also, you tried to flip a knife the day you received it from a blind box and tried to pretend that you paid full price for it and lashed out when you were rightfully called out


----------



## jedy617

Must have been one of the other mods. Again, there could be a reason why for 4 years of being on this forum, I have had zero controversy except telling someone (wrongfully so) that bundling knives in their B/S/T was dumb, and now this. Me telling a maker they should up their HRC. You missed all the good. Mainly just knife pictures, and lots of buying and selling cool knives.


----------



## jedy617

slickmamba said:


> Funny cause you seem to share a lot of qualities, the humblest man alive being one of them as seen in this thread


Something something, very stable genius. 

Anyway. Can't we all move on? I'm just out here using, buying and selling knives, saw a knife I wanted, I thought it was a real shame for how nice it was, for the hardness to be at where it was, and I made the call to say it publicly. 

We can make a new thread all about me if you guys prefer, but I would rather not.

The discord/reddit drama is cringe. I joined this forum to get away from it, and be a better man while still talking about a passion I love.


----------



## jedy617

slickmamba said:


> Funny cause you seem to share a lot of qualities, the humblest man alive being one of them as seen in this thread.
> 
> Also, you tried to flip a knife the day you received it from a blind box and tried to pretend that you paid full price for it and lashed out when you were rightfully called out


I didn't pretend anything. I just said here is the MSRP for the knife. Which was true the whole time. I did not say anything about me paying this or that. I was open on the thread about getting the knife from a mystery box. I was actually quite excited about the knife, and then everyone came in and said that it was lame on the thread which made me feel bad, and so I wanted to sell it immediately after that. Is that alright? Also, I always get low balled so for that listing I put a higher price (but still less than the msrp) and was going to accept less in an offer.

Flipping is buying something with the intent to sell it. I got a mystery box, was luke warm on it, the response from the subreddit pushed me over to selling it, I listed it lower than the MSRP, and would have accepted lower than that. I also gave it away as penance. What else would you like from me man?


----------



## MSicardCutlery




----------



## jedy617

So anyways, the only thing we can do is go forward. What would you guys like me to do? I regret the reddit/discord drama, I was a dumb kid and made some dumb calls. I made a dumb call with @Bico Doce in his sale thread. 

I still do not regret my interaction with Xerxes. When told that he should push his heat treat a bit harder, he clowned on me, and I feel like I have enough experience in the matter to not take it. That I am not backtracking.

I appreciate the people in here who give me at least some benefit of the doubt. I am who I am, and all I can do is try to be better. 

Besides "stop being an argumentative prick" which is the message everyone is telling me, if you really do care about how I act as a person, and actually want to give any constructive criticism, my DM's are open.

To the mods who are going to come through this later. Yes, years ago I got banned from the chef knife subreddit for trolling after what I thought was an unfair mute/ban. I do not want to get banned here because I love this place, even if I have a group of people who find me unsavory. That's fine. Please do not ban me here. I have never scammed anyone or done anything shady. Hell there are actual flippers on here. That is not what I do. A couple months ago I did sell my new FM gyuto from CKTG for around what I had into it. I'm really not the flipper kind of guy.

In that subreddit I was accused of just being in the hobby to make a quick buck, and that just got me really angry. I think besides my FM dama I sold on here for a bit of a profit (because I didn't want to let it go actually) everything I have sold has been either for a loss, or close to MSRP. I have 2 Togo Reigo gyutos, I had people banging down my door to sell them for way more than I paid. Nope, my FM togo has seen quite a bit of wear and use, lots of scratches on that guy....that is staying with me.

I just sold my Shig and denka with custom handles on each for $750 combined, that was a big hit. I have my Isasmedjan honyaki for what I have into it. I am taking a hit on my shiraki honyaki. Going to be listing some more soon for less than what I purchased as well. This hobby doesn't do well for people "trying to make a quick buck" lol.


----------



## Lars




----------



## jedy617

Please spare me. I just want you to all have high HRC magnacut and experience its awesomeness


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

jedy617 said:


> ... One of the mods who was arguing me looked like a hick trump supporter. So I went into the discord and flamed em, what else would you have me do?


----------



## Barmoley

jedy617 said:


> Yeah, that whole topic actually started by Brian complaining about sub-optimal HRC. If you watch the video that Brian posted on his instagram (probably going to be ignored or skipped through by most) you can actually see that 62.5 vs 64 hrc is a huge difference. HRC points are exponential. 1-2 HRC is HUGE. We have data from real world usage IE cutting non impregnated cardboard all across the board at different hardnesses.
> 
> Again, this is for paying OVER A THOUSAND DOLLARS for a knife. Everything needs to be at the highest level. 62 Magnacut is fine for a $200 production knife. Not this.


HRC scale is a logarithmic scale but over the range of normal knife hardness it is close to being linear so even though the difference between 62.5 and 64 is larger than the difference between 56.5 and 58, it is not huge. Over the range of normal knife hardness 1-2 points of difference in HRC is not huge. Other attributes of the knife make a much larger difference in use. Grind, profile, balance, etc are much, much more important. MagnaCut is already better as far as edge retention goes than 95% of steels used for custom kitchen knives, it is very unlikely that given 2 identical knives one being 62 and one being 64 you or most would be able to tell any difference in use.

I watched your friend‘s video and even though he makes some good points I feel like you were not totally honest with him. He seems to think Jannis called you out, but did he? His post didn’t have your name, was it somewhere else? Brian seems very upset from the get go because you were treated badly, but it didn’t sound like that from the Jannis IG post. More over you yourself said that you laid into Jannis once you felt disrespected, so maybe this is what Jannis is refering to when mentioning that someone was abusive to him? You started your conversetion with him from a statement that he is wrong, not a question, so it is not that strange that he didn’t react to you the way you would like.

I think you are concentrating on the wrong attribute of kitchen knives. In folder space it is very common to give too much weight to steel and hardness. There are few reasons for it and many don’t translate well to kitchen knives. Folders are tiny blades with limited realestate for geometry. Folders are usually used to cut relatively abrasive materials that are dry and hard. In addition in many cases folders are sharpened on systems where precise angles can be set. Large kitchen knives are used very differently, so other attributes by far outweigh the exact hardness of an already excellent steel. Would same Xerxes knife be better at 64 hrc, possibly. Would you be able to tell or should you even care, very unlikely.


----------



## jedy617

Barmoley said:


> HRC scale is a logarithmic scale but over the range of normal knife hardness it is close to being linear so even though the difference between 62.5 and 64 is larger than the difference between 56.5 and 58, it is not huge. Over the range of normal knife hardness 1-2 points of difference in HRC is not huge. Other attributes of the knife make a much larger difference in use. Grind, profile, balance, etc are much, much more important. MagnaCut is already better as far as edge retention goes than 95% of steels used for custom kitchen knives, it is very unlikely that given 2 identical knives one being 62 and one being 64 you or most would be able to tell any difference in use.
> 
> I watched your friend‘s video and even though he makes some good points I feel like you were not totally honest with him. He seems to think Jannis called you out, but did he? His post didn’t have your name, was it somewhere else? Brian seems very upset from the get go because you were treated badly, but it didn’t sound like that from the Jannis IG post. More over you yourself said that you laid into Jannis once you felt disrespected, so maybe this is what Jannis is refering to when mentioning that someone was abusive to him? You started your conversetion with him from a statement that he is wrong, not a question, so it is not that strange that he didn’t react to you the way you would like.
> 
> I think you are concentrating on the wrong attribute of kitchen knives. In folder space it is very common to give too much weight to steel and hardness. There are few reasons for it and many don’t translate well to kitchen knives. Folders are tiny blades with limited realestate for geometry. Folders are usually used to cut relatively abrasive materials that are dry and hard. In addition in many cases folders are sharpened on systems where precise angles can be set. Large kitchen knives are used very differently, so other attributes by far outweigh the exact hardness of an already excellent steel. Would same Xerxes knife be better at 64 hrc, possibly. Would you be able to tell or should you even care, very unlikely.


I shared all my personal logs with Brian, and we have been actually talking about this for days, believe me nothing was withheld. And about translation, there is of course a difference in usage case from the pocket knife to kitchen usage. My main point in all of this is, you are using this high end PM steel which can take the high hardness and give amazing edge stability and toughness at high hardness. If you are using this steel, use it. Take advantage of it. There is a reason why I am a steel snob, yet have super chippy and meh edge retention aogami 1/super, and others. But if you are stepping your toes into the PM world with something like magnacut, it should be done all the way.

Would an average user know the difference between 62/64 hrc magnacut in the kitchen? Maybe? Maybe not. My point is you are paying for the pinnacle with one of those knives. Just like Honyaki. Take advantage of its properties. I do not want 62-63 hrc honyaki. If I am paying for honyaki go balls to the walls. If I am paying for magnacut, use it like it is meant to be used, take advantage of the edge stability it can offer.

At the end of the day you bring up very reasonable points and I agree with some of them. Thanks for keeping it civil.


----------



## jedy617

stringer said:


> What do you know about using chef knives? Have you ever worked in a pro kitchen?



Wanted to reply to this just in case it got locked: What do I know about using chef knives or working in a pro kitchen? 

I have not worked in a pro kitchen. I do not have the balls, the stamina, or commitment those people have. I think people who work in the service industry are legends. I worked for a bit at a local sandwich shop. It sucked, and it was not even remotely close to what pros do. I have a good friend who works in a two michellin star place. My mental would crumple in a minute.

With all that being said, I do cook a lot at home. I cut a lot. I sharpen a lot. I have used A LOT of magnacut, since its release., if you actually care to listen I can list all the knives. Sent it all over the world to have had knives made from it, and waiting on more. Have experienced a wide variety of HRCs and geometry with magnacut. So far only folders, but I have magnacut chefs on order. I noticed a difference in my 60-62 hrc magnacut cutting cardboard, vs my 65. Whether I would notice in the kitchen, again not sure....but then why use that steel. Use AEBL if you want a fine grained tough, stainless, easy to sharpen steel. Will actually check the chart again if I have to, but if at 64 hrc, magnacut is twice as tough as VG10, why not run it that hard or harder. It's still tougher than common stainless steels and you get more edge retention. It's just a win win.


----------



## Xenif

I just remembered why I love KKF so much!

This is like watching someone drown while others skipping stones on the lake, while the person drowning is tying the cinder blocks to their own feet


----------



## jedy617

Xenif said:


> I just remembered why I love KKF so much!
> 
> This is like watching someone drown while others skipping stones on the lake, while the person drowning is tying the cinder blocks to their own feet


Good thing magnacut is practically rust proof. Will serve me well at the bottom of the lake.


----------



## ethompson

You aren't cutting cardboard in a kitchen with a gyuto though... Folders and kitchen knifes are two very different things. What is best for one may not be best for the other. Xerxes is a master of kitchen knives and I trust him to evaluate the tradeoffs required for his geometry and intended uses.

Your trying to transfer knowledge from one category to another. Some of it will transfer nicely, some of it won't. Doesn't mean we can't all learn from each other, but for someone who admits to never using Magnacut in a chef's knife, never having used a Xerxes, and never working in a pro kitchen you are pretty intent on your way being the one and only way. 

Its like comparing fast casual kitchens to the kitchens chasing 50 Best rankings... Sure they both serve food, but the goals and intents are pretty dramatically different. Even if you start with the same raw ingredients and the same goal - serve food. You make totally different choices in execution based not the goal of serving 100 people in 5 hours versus 500 people in 2 hours.


----------



## jedy617

ethompson said:


> You aren't cutting cardboard in a kitchen with a gyuto though... Folders and kitchen knifes are two very different things. What is best for one may not be best for the other. Xerxes is a master of kitchen knives and I trust him to evaluate the tradeoffs required for his geometry and intended uses.
> 
> Your trying to transfer knowledge from one category to another. Some of it will transfer nicely, some of it won't. Doesn't mean we can't all learn from each other, but for someone who admits to never using Magnacut in a chef's knife, never having used a Xerxes, and never working in a pro kitchen you are pretty intent on your way being the one and only way.
> 
> Its like comparing fast casual kitchens to the kitchens chasing 50 Best rankings... Sure they both serve food, but the goals and intents are pretty dramatically different. Even if you start with the same raw ingredients and the same goal - serve food. You make totally different choices in execution based not the goal of serving 100 people in 5 hours versus 500 people in 2 hours.


I think some of my important notes are being ignored though. Brian talked in his video on how cutting food is easier than cardboard, so actually your edge will last even longer the harder it is. And we can all see at high hardness, magnacut is quite a bit harder than all the other stainless steels we all use. A Takamura R2 is very very thin, and magnacut at 64-65 is tougher. It can take that geometry, still be tougher, and give me some more retention.

I know there are a lot of variables. I saw a steel I use a lot, at a hardness I find to be sub-optimal on a cool looking chef knife, and I let my voice be heard. I think there is a rare stigma on here that just because you're a good maker, doesn't mean you do everything right. When magnacut first came to pocket knives people were running it at 60-62. Everyone wanted more, we all said it, and we got it. Now OZ machine company and eutsler and CRK are doing 63-64 and everyone is happy. I want that to be here.


----------



## ethompson

I'm not saying it can't take that geometry, Im sure it can. I frequently push knives as thin as I can until they get chippy then back of - that is my preference. But I can tell you that there is also something to be said for a knife that is stupid thin, holds and edge better than hard simple carbon and is almost bullet proof under heavy use. Seems like that was Jannis' goal with this one.


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## superworrier

jedy617 said:


> I think some of my important notes are being ignored though. Brian talked in his video on how cutting food is easier than cardboard, so actually your edge will last even longer the harder it is. And we can all see at high hardness, magnacut is quite a bit harder than all the other stainless steels we all use. A Takamura R2 is very very thin, and magnacut at 64-65 is tougher. It can take that geometry, still be tougher, and give me some more retention.
> 
> I know there are a lot of variables. I saw a steel I use a lot, at a hardness I find to be sub-optimal on a cool looking chef knife, and I let my voice be heard.


Your points are interesting but I think it's lost in the delivery here. You may have felt you've done nothing wrong but it doesn't seem like your communication has achieved the results you've intended. I'm assuming your intent was not to cause drama.


----------



## jedy617

superworrier said:


> Your points are interesting but I think it's lost in the delivery here. You may have felt you've done nothing wrong but it doesn't seem like your communication has achieved the results you've intended. I'm assuming your intent was not to cause drama.


It wasn't. I expected Xerxes to either say "oh yeah I'm testing a bunch of different heat treats, or maybe next time I'll run it a bit harder". We just butted heads and disagree.


----------



## Barmoley

jedy617 said:


> I shared all my personal logs with Brian, and we have been actually talking about this for days, believe me nothing was withheld. And about translation, there is of course a difference in usage case from the pocket knife to kitchen usage. My main point in all of this is, you are using this high end PM steel which can take the high hardness and give amazing edge stability and toughness at high hardness. If you are using this steel, use it. Take advantage of it. There is a reason why I am a steel snob, yet have super chippy and meh edge retention aogami 1/super, and others. But if you are stepping your toes into the PM world with something like magnacut, it should be done all the way.
> 
> Would an average user know the difference between 62/64 hrc magnacut in the kitchen? Maybe? Maybe not. My point is you are paying for the pinnacle with one of those knives. Just like Honyaki. Take advantage of its properties. I do not want 62-63 hrc honyaki. If I am paying for honyaki go balls to the walls. If I am paying for magnacut, use it like it is meant to be used, take advantage of the edge stability it can offer.
> 
> At the end of the day you bring up very reasonable points and I agree with some of them. Thanks for keeping it civil.


Then I fail to understand Brian's statements that Jannis publicly called you out and that it is not something a maker should do. Jannis original post didn't have your name at all as far as I can tell.

I understand that your opinion is that MagnaCut should be heat treated harder, but it is just your opinion. Jannis made the knife where he chose everything steel, construction, heat treat, geometry, etc. You criticized this knife based only on the hardness number, which is probably the least important attribute of this knife. If you didn't know this number nothing would change if you used the knife. You don't know how hard your honyaki knives are by the way, unless you actually tested them on well calibrated tester. You keep harping on "I just want the maker to be better or make his knives better", but you are concentrating on entirely wrong and inconsequential attribute of the knife.


----------



## jedy617

ethompson said:


> I'm not saying it can't take that geometry, Im sure it can. I frequently push knives as thin as I can until they get chippy then back of - that is my preference. But I can tell you that there is also something to be said for a knife that is stupid thin, holds and edge better than hard simple carbon and is almost bullet proof under heavy use. Seems like that was Jannis' goal with this one.


You make good points for sure. I just think with magnacut you can have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## jedy617

Barmoley said:


> Then I fail to understand Brian's statements that Jannis publicly called you out and that it is not something a maker should do. Jannis original post didn't have your name at all as far as I can tell.
> 
> I understand that your opinion is that MagnaCut should be heat treated harder, but it is just your opinion. Jannis made the knife where he chose everything steel, construction, het treat, geometry, etc. You criticized this knife based only on the hardness number, which is probably the least important attribute of this knife. If you didn't know this number nothing would change if you used the knife. You don't know how hard your honyaki knives are by the way, unless you actually tested them on well calibrated tester. You keep harping on "I just want the maker to be better or make his knives better", but you are concentrating on entirely wrong and inconsequential attribute of the knife.


It is consequential to me. I guess that's the disconnect. I notice big differences in aogami super and Hitachi white from different makers at different hardnesses, both in edge retention, and sharpening.

I do not know the exact hrc of the honyaki. But again we are circling back, for honyaki it matters much less so, and it's more for the art and knowing the maker is maxing out the performance of the knife. But you are making a conscious decision to choose magnacut, a very high performing PM stainless. Just use AEBL or a carbon steel if you don't want to take advantage of its properties. Don't use magnacut, don't waste the steel.


----------



## ethompson

jedy617 said:


> You make good points for sure. I just think with magnacut you can have your cake and eat it too.


So you concede that Jannis is just choosing a different point on the tradeoff spectrum than you would? Seems like there is a strong use case for both slightly lower hardness Magnacut in a very thin profile that offers extreme toughness given hardness and geometry and Magnacut pushed to the highest hardness that is still tougher than comparable simple steels. Seems like you still have reason to choose Magnacut at 62.5 over AEBL at 62.5...


----------



## jedy617

ethompson said:


> So you concede that Jannis is just choosing a different point on the tradeoff spectrum than you would? Seems like there is a strong use case for both slightly lower hardness Magnacut in a very thin profile that offers extreme toughness given hardness and geometry and Magnacut pushed to the highest hardness that is still tougher than comparable simple steels. Seems like you still have reason to choose Magnacut at 62.5 over AEBL at 62.5...


I think he is consciously making a trade off of edge retention and edge stability for toughness, while magnacut is already very tough at high hardness. As described in Brians video, he gives much too much weight on the chappy vs catra scored and percentages.


----------



## Barmoley

jedy617 said:


> It is consequential to me. I guess that's the disconnect. I notice big differences in aogami super and Hitachi white from different makers at different hardnesses, both in edge retention, and sharpening.
> 
> I do not know the exact hrc of the honyaki. But again we are circling back, for honyaki it matters much less so, and it's more for the art and knowing the maker is maxing out the performance of the knife. But you are making a conscious decision to choose magnacut, a very high performing PM stainless. Just use AEBL or a carbon steel if you don't want to take advantage of its properties. Don't use magnacut, don't waste the steel.


You brought up honyaki, I am just pointing out that you have no idea how hard they are. The fact that you are seeing differences in different knives from different makers and attribute this to hardness might or might not be correct. Geometry and heat treat make a huge difference not just the posted hardness numbers. Difference in sharpening is mostly due to heat treat not hardness when within similar range since you can have same hardness and yet different behavior due to different heat treats. Given 2 good heat treats you are unlikely to see a difference in edge retention or sharpening, you might, but the difference will be small. You keep on making incorrect statements and when these are pointed out you just gloss over them. Given 2 good heat treats a harder magnacut blade will likely have higher edge stability and at 64 hrc it should be more than tough enough for kitchen knives, but at 62.5 it also has high edge stability and more than good enough edge retention for a kitchen knife. The difference between the two in performance is not worth talking about. Your suggestion that if you don't use magnacut at higher hardness you shouldn't use it at all and use a different steel is absurd. The difference in use between the two is marginal.


----------



## jedy617

Barmoley said:


> You brought up honyaki, I am just pointing out that you have no idea how hard they are. The fact that you are seeing differences in different knives from different makers and attribute this to hardness might or might not be correct. Geometry and heat treat make a huge difference not just the posted hardness numbers. Difference in sharpening is mostly due to heat treat not hardness when within similar range since you can have same hardness and yet different behavior due to different heat treats. Given 2 good heat treats you are unlikely to see a difference in edge retention or sharpening, you might, but the difference will be small. You keep on making incorrect statements and when these are pointed out you just gloss over them. Given 2 good heat treats a harder magnacut blade will likely have higher edge stability and at 64 hrc it should be more than tough enough for kitchen knives, but at 62.5 it also has high edge stability and more than good enough edge retention for a kitchen knife. The difference between the two in performance is not worth talking about. Your suggestion that if you don't use magnacut at higher hardness you shouldn't use it at all and use a different steel is absurd. The difference in use between the two is marginal.


You shouldn't be using magnacut if you don't push its hardness. It was made like apex ultra for high hardness and edge stability while being very stainless, and still being tough. As stated, HRC is not the only factor in heat treat. Geometry is as important. Magnacut can and should be taken down to a very thin geometry. No matter what geometry you are aiming for, unless the knife is for a cleaver or an outdoor knife, the hardness should be cranked. Again, all things being equal you only gain retention, and lose some toughness which is not needed in the applications we are talking about.

All good, we just see things differently. Again the mention of honyaki was for the fact of why even do honyaki if you aren't aiming for hardness. It's the same principal here. Use the right material, and technique for the job.


----------



## tgfencer

So to summarize: Jannis isn’t losing any customers or reputation over the pointlessness of whatever this whole thing is; Random forum guy isn’t losing any money on hypothetical goods that he may or may not have been able to tell were inferior; Other random guy from the grumpy video with a graph isn’t actually all that great at drawing graphs; and I am not getting back the minutes of my life I wasted on skimming through this while waiting for my mother in law to vacate the bathroom.

Yawn. I expected real drama from this thread, not endless internet soap reruns. Wake me when the real fireworks start.


----------



## daveb

Dude, I can't hear a thing you're saying for all the noise.

Came here as a mod because of a reported post - someone called you an "insufferable twat"? While those are not words I would have used and are certainly not normal here, when taken in context I won't argue with them. Did you expect different when you've labeled a half dozen makers and members "fools" that don't agree with you about something you seem to know little about?

Your diatribe reminds me of a walkie talkie. You won't learn a thing with the transmit button locked down. 

Sorry but I sometimes will sacrifice tact for clarity. Pls leave the subject alone.


----------



## M1k3




----------



## ethompson

jedy617 said:


> *You shouldn't be using magnacut if you don't push its hardness*. It was made like apex ultra for high hardness and edge stability while being very stainless, and still being tough. As stated, HRC is not the only factor in heat treat. Geometry is as important. Magnacut can and should be taken down to a very thin geometry. No matter what geometry you are aiming for, unless the knife is for a cleaver or an outdoor knife, the hardness should be cranked. Again, all things being equal you only gain retention, and lose some toughness which is not needed in the applications we are talking about.
> 
> All good, we just see things differently. Again the mention of honyaki was for the fact of why even do honyaki if you aren't aiming for hardness. It's the same principal here. *Use the right material, and technique for the job.*


Sorry, but since you insist on being the arbiter of what is righteous and good...

I'll defer to Jannis this time on what is the right material and technique for what he had in mind here. I know he makes incredible knives, meanwhile I don't think using a bendy straw as profile inspiration for fixing a chip is the right move.




We all have a lot to learn here, myself very much included. Learning is more than half the fun.

Edit: credit to @nakiriknaifuwaifu for coining the term bendy straw profile in a conversation earlier this year, sorry babe


----------



## BillHanna

This thread is better as an anthology than as a maxi series.


----------



## jedy617

daveb said:


> Dude, I can't hear a thing you're saying for all the noise.
> 
> Came here as a mod because of a reported post - someone called you an "insufferable twat"? While those are not words I would have used and are certainly not normal here, when taken in context I won't argue with them. Did you expect different when you've labeled a half dozen makers and members "fools" that don't agree with you about something you seem to know little about?
> 
> Your diatribe reminds me of a walkie talkie. You won't learn a thing with the transmit button locked down.
> 
> Sorry but I sometimes will sacrifice tact for clarity. Pls leave the subject alone.


No I only think Jannis is wrong about his heat treat for magnacut Dave. I don't think anyone else on here maker or otherwise is a fool


----------



## M1k3

daveb said:


> Dude, I can't hear a thing you're saying for all the noise.
> 
> Came here as a mod because of a reported post - someone called you an "insufferable twat"? While those are not words I would have used and are certainly not normal here, when taken in context I won't argue with them. Did you expect different when you've labeled a half dozen makers and members "fools" that don't agree with you about something you seem to know little about?
> 
> Your diatribe reminds me of a walkie talkie. You won't learn a thing with the transmit button locked down.
> 
> Sorry but I sometimes will sacrifice tact for clarity. Pls leave the subject alone.


I know you're not supposed to do it as mod, but..... This thread is hilarious with a certain member on ignore


----------



## jedy617

ethompson said:


> Sorry, but since you insist on being the arbiter of what is righteous and good...
> 
> I'll defer to Jannis this time on what is the right material and technique for what he had in mind here. I know he makes incredible knives, meanwhile I don't think using a bendy straw as profile inspiration for fixing a chip is the right move.
> View attachment 202057
> 
> We all have a lot to learn here, myself very much included. Learning is more than half the fun.


I maintained the same geometry as the knife came with, I noticed the curve as well. The chip was actually quite small. I have pictures of the before with the same shape.


----------



## jedy617

Dave can we discuss a different topic while you are here? I have limited personal experience here, but I have 2 or 3 users who I brought here that you kind of scared off by your...umm..crass attitude? I think for newbies it's generally better to be warm and welcoming, we don't want to be scaring them off. 

If I'm being voted off the island, might as well say it.

And "know so little?" I know that I have used most of these knives before Janis even got his magnacut delivered. These are all magnacut baby. I hacked down some branches with my CRK tanto a few days ago, weird how even chopping wood didn't make my 64 hrc magnacut explode. Unfortunately this is just a small sampling of the magnacut collection.


----------



## Delat

Serious question here - I have various knives in the 62-63 range - SKD, R2, etc. Some get tiny deflections, other tiny chips. Honestly, neither is good since you can’t straighten the deflections back out and you need to sharpen both out. I guess I can more readily ignore deflections since they probably won’t spread like chips, but it’s still a damaged edge.

I don’t really see the point of having even more toughness at the same HRC. So now I know I’ll definitely get deflections instead of chips? I’d rather avoid it altogether, which is what HRC 65 would help achieve (I think?). And there if I get a chip instead of a deflection, then meh, same thing either way.

So what’s the purpose of super high toughness in a typical gyuto at a very common HRC of 62?


----------



## jedy617

Delat said:


> Serious question here - I have various knives in the 62-63 range - SKD, R2, etc. Some get tiny deflections, other tiny chips. Honestly, neither is good since you can’t straighten the deflections back out and you need to sharpen both out. I guess I can more readily ignore deflections since they probably won’t spread like chips, but it’s still a damaged edge.
> 
> I don’t really see the point of having even more toughness at the same HRC. So now I know I’ll definitely get deflections instead of chips? I’d rather avoid it altogether, which is what HRC 65 would help achieve (I think?). And there if I get a chip instead of a deflection, then meh, same thing either way.
> 
> So what’s the purpose of super high toughness in a typical gyuto at a very common HRC of 62?


Exactly. At higher hardness for a steel like magnacut we will get more edge stability (to a point of course, we don't want to losr all our toughness) Similar principle to why Apex ultra was developed to be able to reach 68-69 hrc on the high end. Whatever I'm saying is being colored by predetermined bias. I can't possibly know something that a master bladesmith doesn't know.

Also I hope the people on here are quite proud in their bullying. We need to rename this thread the hate jedy thread.


----------



## DrEriksson

jedy617 said:


> Also I hope the people on here are quite proud in their bullying. We need to rename this thread the hate jedy thread.



Because it surely ain’t the “Jedy considers pushback and reevaluates his conduct” thread.


----------



## jedy617

DrEriksson said:


> Because it surely ain’t the “Jedy considers pushback and reevaluates his conduct” thread.


If not kicked out yes I will reevaluate my conduct. I still think some of the name calling was too far just because I want a maker to run his steel harder.


----------



## superworrier

Delat said:


> Serious question here - I have various knives in the 62-63 range - SKD, R2, etc. Some get tiny deflections, other tiny chips. Honestly, neither is good since you can’t straighten the deflections back out and you need to sharpen both out. I guess I can more readily ignore deflections since they probably won’t spread like chips, but it’s still a damaged edge.
> 
> I don’t really see the point of having even more toughness at the same HRC. So now I know I’ll definitely get deflections instead of chips? I’d rather avoid it altogether, which is what HRC 65 would help achieve (I think?). And there if I get a chip instead of a deflection, then meh, same thing either way.
> 
> So what’s the purpose of super high toughness in a typical gyuto at a very common HRC of 62?


I heard someone say that deflections might be worse because they end up being deeper than a chip would. I kind of remember it being you but I might be wrong. Also not sure if that's true but it's an interesting line of thinking.


----------



## superworrier

jedy617 said:


> If not kicked out yes I will reevaluate my conduct. I still think some of the name calling was too far just because I want a maker to run his steel harder.


Honestly, just take a break from this thread from now (or at least the whole social media aspect...). I don't think this topic is productive at all while everyones' emotions are riled up.


----------



## jedy617

superworrier said:


> Honestly, just take a break from this thread from now (or at least the whole social media aspect...). I don't think this topic is productive at all while everyones' emotions are riled up.


You are right. I will try my best. I do have a very bad need to constantly respond to everything the second I read it. That is the case with any message I get, be it on social media or not. I was trying to get my last thoughts out in case I got the boot from here. Hopefully that will not be the case when I get back, but it is what it is.


----------



## Barmoley

jedy617 said:


> You shouldn't be using magnacut if you don't push its hardness. It was made like apex ultra for high hardness and edge stability while being very stainless, and still being tough. As stated, HRC is not the only factor in heat treat. Geometry is as important. Magnacut can and should be taken down to a very thin geometry. No matter what geometry you are aiming for, unless the knife is for a cleaver or an outdoor knife, the hardness should be cranked. Again, all things being equal you only gain retention, and lose some toughness which is not needed in the applications we are talking about.
> 
> All good, we just see things differently. Again the mention of honyaki was for the fact of why even do honyaki if you aren't aiming for hardness. It's the same principal here. Use the right material, and technique for the job.


You might have more information on what Larrin's goals for designing MagnaCut were, but at least from what was stated publicly he wanted to design a 4V/CPM-CruWear class steel that was also stainless CPM MagnaCut - The Next Breakthrough in Knife Steel - Knife Steel Nerds I don't know how this translates to MagnaCut being designed for high hardness. Really this is not even the point. The point at least I am trying to make is that you looked at the knife made by a very talented knife maker that has made many, many kitchen knives that are of extremely high quality and performance and zeroed in on something that is inconsequential in the realm of kitchen knives. You base your complaint on your experience with the steel in a different application, while questioning not just the maker, but also the steel designer. It is fine to disagree of course, but you are blowing this tiny difference in opinion all out of proportion claiming that the steel can and should only be used a certain way.

I don't think people should use white class steels for kitchen knives at all given all the alternatives, but I am not about to tell every maker to switch the steel they use  and if I did, I would absolutely expect them to tell me to go pound sand.


----------



## BrianKim309

Hello, I’m late to the party. Needed to get perms to post a comment as I am a new member. I believe there are two separate issues here. The first is the appropriate way for a knife maker to handle constructive criticism from a prospective customer, and the second is how to heat treat a steel like MagnaCut for a thin geometry chef knife given the data we currently have available. On the first point, it is my personal opinion that a knife maker should never seek to humiliate or talk down to a prospective customer giving honest feedback. From my understanding, the Instagram comment that started all this was “Awesome but need higher hrc.” If someone called my knives “awesome” but suggested that they could be improved in a specific and achievable way, my response would not be to get defensive. While Jedy was not named outright in Xerxes’ post, Xerxes referenced the specific post and quoted him, making it abundantly clear who he was talking about. This is not too far off from just naming a person. He also liked a comment calling Jedy a “know-it-all” further making it clear who he had a problem with, so I don’t think it is of significance that the word “Jedy” was not in the caption of the post in question. The reason this matters to me is that I believe knifemakers should foster interest in the products they make. We should want people to share our passion, not be afraid to ask questions or to challenge our methods. If we are truly confident that we are doing what is best, then we should be able to simply explain why what we are doing is good with strong evidence and faithful interpretation of that evidence.


On the second point, there are some serious issues with Xerxes’ interpretation and presentation of Larrin’s data. Xerxes’ main argument is that in comparing CATRA test results and Charpy impact test results for MagnaCut at 62 and 64 HRC, there is only a 6% increase in wear resistance for a 30% decrease in toughness and therefore a disproportionate loss of toughness. This alone demonstrates to me a lack of understanding of the data as 1) Charpy impact testing’s foot-pound values cannot be accurately represented with percentages to begin with and 2) CATRA testing involves cutting a specific material (silica-impregnated cardstock) which leads to smaller incrementing values and therefore smaller percentage changes. Let’s start with Charpy impact test results. These are reported in the unit “foot-pounds”. A higher foot-pound value means a higher toughness, or resistance to impact. However, going from 17 foot-pounds to 12 foot-pounds is not the same as going from 12 foot-pounds to 7 foot-pounds even though the delta is the same in both cases at a 5 foot-pound difference. At lower values, each individual foot-pound matters more to toughness. At 3 foot-pounds of toughness, your failure modes increase drastically. So going from 7 to 3 is a big deal. But going from 44 to 40 is inconsequential despite the same delta of 4 because your failure modes in any realistic setting would be the exact same. Now onto CATRA testing. CATRA testing uses a unique abrasive material that is cost-effective and time-efficient. It is very abrasive, much more so than what you would cut with a chef knife. You will notice if you examine CATRA values for different steels and the trends that the value changes are often very small. This is by design. Consider for example, if you want to know how many Wagyu steaks (or whatever other expensive food that is more abrasive) a chef knife could cut before being considered dull. You wouldn’t want to use steaks for your testing because the material is not very abrasive and is also very expensive. You would have to cut many, many expensive steaks before your knife started to get dull. Not a great test media. For abrasive testing we exaggerate and cut things that are more abrasive than what we normally would cut, and as a result percentages are naturally going to be smaller. In other words, Xerxes has taken percentages from Charpy impact test values, which don’t make sense in that context, and percentages from CATRA tests, which are deliberately designed so as to have smaller differences in values, and tried to compare them. I don’t think he did this with the intent to deceive, but rather that he actually just doesn’t understand the data he’s referencing. The problem is that he has posted this reasoning publicly and people who respect his work will believe it and spread it. The other problem is that he is using this reasoning as justification to try to humiliate a prospective customer, and that I take even more issue with.

In reading through some prior comments on this thread, I think it might also be useful to address some points that have been made. The first is that the difference between MagnaCut at around 62 HRC and that around 64 or 65 HRC is inconsequential and would not be noticed by anyone. I have two responses to this. First, as a knifemaker who has worked with this steel extensively and done 1) personal testing, 2) gotten third-party testing, and 3) gotten feedback from customers, I can assure you that customers who sharpen their own knives and actually cut things can tell the difference. I actually started out running MagnaCut at 63 HRC and then bumped it up to 64.5-65.2 due to finding that customers noticed a significant difference in ease of deburring, edge retention, and bite. I have gotten MagnaCut tested by knife reviewers as well as testers like Outpost76 and TomHosangOutdoors with cardboard cut testing at the same edge finish, angle, etc. Rather than trying to twist data to fit my narrative I have spent countless hours trying to get the most accurate data and then forming my conclusions AFTER seeing the data - rather than going in with confirmation bias and misinterpreting data to defend my initial position. With that said, there is a significant increase in edge retention going from MagnaCut at 62 HRC to 64 or especially 65 HRC, and people will notice it if they use their knives. As another user commented, deflections are just as bad as chips. The size of damage is just as significant as the type of damage. This is why we value edge stability in knives with thin geometry over just toughness, and edge stability given a good heat treat is higher at 64-65 HRC with respect to MagnaCut. I hope I have in no way come off as combative or aggressive. I am very passionate about this subject, but I am always open to good faith discussions.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Holy paragraphs Batman!


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Hey, on another note, don't I remember right that Janis suffered a serious injury? If so, it's great to hear he's back in the shop.

Am I mixing up my makers?


----------



## stringer

Transparent Knives said:


> Hello, I’m late to the party. Needed to get perms to post a comment as I am a new member. I believe there are two separate issues here. The first is the appropriate way for a knife maker to handle constructive criticism from a prospective customer, and the second is how to heat treat a steel like MagnaCut for a thin geometry chef knife given the data we currently have available. On the first point, it is my personal opinion that a knife maker should never seek to humiliate or talk down to a prospective customer giving honest feedback. From my understanding, the Instagram comment that started all this was “Awesome but need higher hrc.” If someone called my knives “awesome” but suggested that they could be improved in a specific and achievable way, my response would not be to get defensive. While Jedy was not named outright in Xerxes’ post, Xerxes referenced the specific post and quoted him, making it abundantly clear who he was talking about. This is not too far off from just naming a person. He also liked a comment calling Jedy a “know-it-all” further making it clear who he had a problem with, so I don’t think it is of significance that the word “Jedy” was not in the caption of the post in question. The reason this matters to me is that I believe knifemakers should foster interest in the products they make. We should want people to share our passion, not be afraid to ask questions or to challenge our methods. If we are truly confident that we are doing what is best, then we should be able to simply explain why what we are doing is good with strong evidence and faithful interpretation of that evidence.
> 
> 
> On the second point, there are some serious issues with Xerxes’ interpretation and presentation of Larrin’s data. Xerxes’ main argument is that in comparing CATRA test results and Charpy impact test results for MagnaCut at 62 and 64 HRC, there is only a 6% increase in wear resistance for a 30% decrease in toughness and therefore a disproportionate loss of toughness. This alone demonstrates to me a lack of understanding of the data as 1) Charpy impact testing’s foot-pound values cannot be accurately represented with percentages to begin with and 2) CATRA testing involves cutting a specific material (silica-impregnated cardstock) which leads to smaller incrementing values and therefore smaller percentage changes. Let’s start with Charpy impact test results. These are reported in the unit “foot-pounds”. A higher foot-pound value means a higher toughness, or resistance to impact. However, going from 17 foot-pounds to 12 foot-pounds is not the same as going from 12 foot-pounds to 7 foot-pounds even though the delta is the same in both cases at a 5 foot-pound difference. At lower values, each individual foot-pound matters more to toughness. At 3 foot-pounds of toughness, your failure modes increase drastically. So going from 7 to 3 is a big deal. But going from 44 to 40 is inconsequential despite the same delta of 4 because your failure modes in any realistic setting would be the exact same. Now onto CATRA testing. CATRA testing uses a unique abrasive material that is cost-effective and time-efficient. It is very abrasive, much more so than what you would cut with a chef knife. You will notice if you examine CATRA values for different steels and the trends that the value changes are often very small. This is by design. Consider for example, if you want to know how many Wagyu steaks (or whatever other expensive food that is more abrasive) a chef knife could cut before being considered dull. You wouldn’t want to use steaks for your testing because the material is not very abrasive and is also very expensive. You would have to cut many, many expensive steaks before your knife started to get dull. Not a great test media. For abrasive testing we exaggerate and cut things that are more abrasive than what we normally would cut, and as a result percentages are naturally going to be smaller. In other words, Xerxes has taken percentages from Charpy impact test values, which don’t make sense in that context, and percentages from CATRA tests, which are deliberately designed so as to have smaller differences in values, and tried to compare them. I don’t think he did this with the intent to deceive, but rather that he actually just doesn’t understand the data he’s referencing. The problem is that he has posted this reasoning publicly and people who respect his work will believe it and spread it. The other problem is that he is using this reasoning as justification to try to humiliate a prospective customer, and that I take even more issue with.
> 
> In reading through some prior comments on this thread, I think it might also be useful to address some points that have been made. The first is that the difference between MagnaCut at around 62 HRC and that around 64 or 65 HRC is inconsequential and would not be noticed by anyone. I have two responses to this. First, as a knifemaker who has worked with this steel extensively and done 1) personal testing, 2) gotten third-party testing, and 3) gotten feedback from customers, I can assure you that customers who sharpen their own knives and actually cut things can tell the difference. I actually started out running MagnaCut at 63 HRC and then bumped it up to 64.5-65.2 due to finding that customers noticed a significant difference in ease of deburring, edge retention, and bite. I have gotten MagnaCut tested by knife reviewers as well as testers like Outpost76 and TomHosangOutdoors with cardboard cut testing at the same edge finish, angle, etc. Rather than trying to twist data to fit my narrative I have spent countless hours trying to get the most accurate data and then forming my conclusions AFTER seeing the data - rather than going in with confirmation bias and misinterpreting data to defend my initial position. With that said, there is a significant increase in edge retention going from MagnaCut at 62 HRC to 64 or especially 65 HRC, and people will notice it if they use their knives. As another user commented, deflections are just as bad as chips. The size of damage is just as significant as the type of damage. This is why we value edge stability in knives with thin geometry over just toughness, and edge stability given a good heat treat is higher at 64-65 HRC with respect to MagnaCut. I hope I have in no way come off as combative or aggressive. I am very passionate about this subject, but I am always open to good faith discussions.


Good faith discussions are always welcome. Welcome to the forum.


----------



## Mlan

I honestly couldn’t care less about the optimal HT. I think most people would agree that’s not the issue here. You can’t be mad at someone for being rude to you when you were very abrupt and rude off the bat.


----------



## BrianKim309

Mlan said:


> I honestly couldn’t care less about the optimal HT. I think most people would agree that’s not the issue here. You can’t be mad at someone for being rude to you when you were very abrupt and rude off the bat.


Civility and politeness are important on both sides. Personally I hold myself and other makers to a higher standard. A customer being rude does not give me permission to humiliate them publicly or try to encourage negative social media comments about them. I have had rude customers in the past, though not many (and I’m lucky for that). I have never talked down to a customer offering criticism, even if I disagreed with the criticism or thought it was delivered rudely. As knifemakers we are to make the best product we can and help foster a community that appreciates quality and our efforts. Talking down to customers detracts from this and is not justified regardless of if the maker thinks the customer is being rude in my opinion.


----------



## Bico Doce

@Transparent Knives welcome to KKF. Truth be told if I had my choice I would choose my magnacut at 64 hrc over 62.5 hrc. I dont need the extra toughness. However given the choice of a Xerxes chef knife in 62.5 hrc magnacut and pretty much most other makers at 64 hrc I would choose Xerxes hands down. His work is that good. He is in a different tier. I believe those fortunate enough to try his work will agree. So while it might seem strange most just don’t care about the trade off of running magnacut lower than 64. 

You made some valid points which I feel add value to the conversation. However Jannis/Xerxes is smart, talented and has earned the respect and confidence of the KKF community. I’m not saying he handled this interaction the best but don’t be surprised when the people here cut him quite a bit of slack that is not being extended to jedy. 

I don’t believe Jannis’ intent was to humiliate and demean but it does seem he got defensive. Was that enough to warrant this magnitude of reaction by jedy and the your IG post where you seemed a bit heated, I think not. This is where I was lost in the conversation because initially I had the same thought as Jedy.


----------



## Mlan

Transparent Knives said:


> Civility and politeness are important on both sides. Personally I hold myself and other makers to a higher standard. A customer being rude does not give me permission to humiliate them publicly or try to encourage negative social media comments about them. I have had rude customers in the past, though not many (and I’m lucky for that). I have never talked down to a customer offering criticism, even if I disagreed with the criticism or thought it was delivered rudely. As knifemakers we are to make the best product we can and help foster a community that appreciates quality and our efforts. Talking down to customers detracts from this and is not justified regardless of if the maker thinks the customer is being rude in my opinion.


Where did Xerxes try to encourage negative social media comments about Jedy?


----------



## jedy617

Bico Doce said:


> @Transparent Knives welcome to KKF. Truth be told if I had my choice I would choose my magnacut at 64 hrc over 62.5 hrc. I dont need the extra toughness. However given the choice of a Xerxes chef knife in 62.5 hrc magnacut and pretty much most other makers at 64 hrc I would choose Xerxes hands down. His work is that good. He is in a different tier. I believe those fortunate enough to try his work will agree. So while it might seem strange most just don’t care about the trade off of running magnacut lower than 64.
> 
> You made some valid points which I feel add value to the conversation. However Jannis/Xerxes is smart, talented and has earned the respect and confidence of the KKF community. I’m not saying he handled this interaction the best but don’t be surprised when the people here cut him quite a bit of slack that is not being extended to jedy.
> 
> I don’t believe Jannis’ intent was to humiliate and demean but it does seem he got defensive. Was that enough to warrant this magnitude of reaction by jedy and the your IG post where you seemed a bit heated, I think not. This is where I was lost in the conversation because initially I had the same thought as Jedy.


I could have said it better than "awesome but needs higher hrc" and have been more humble then the get go for sure. I was just taken a back by his response. In DM's I tried my best to relay my personal use case with the steel, and some data for Larrin, while also saying I wanted a knife from him for awhile. I got really heated when he said "sorry this is nonsense" and blew off on him. Our personalities just clash I guess.


----------



## BrianKim309

Mlan said:


> Where did Xerxes try to encourage negative social media comments about Jedy?


I'm not arguing that was his main goal or that he did so in any significant way. I do think it is poor taste to like comments that are basically just insults and encourage that sort of behavior however.


----------



## Bico Doce

jedy617 said:


> I could have said it better than "awesome but needs higher hrc" and have been more humble then the get go for sure. I was just taken a back by his response. In DM's I tried my best to relay my personal use case with the steel, and some data for Larrin, and I got really heated when he said "sorry this is nonsense". Our personalities just clash I guess.


That’s cool. Sometimes we just catch each other at a bad moment and it goes down from there. The introspection here is much appreciated especially given how you’ve been fielding shots from quite a few of us all day.


----------



## BrianKim309

Bico Doce said:


> @Transparent Knives welcome to KKF. Truth be told if I had my choice I would choose my magnacut at 64 hrc over 62.5 hrc. I dont need the extra toughness. However given the choice of a Xerxes chef knife in 62.5 hrc magnacut and pretty much most other makers at 64 hrc I would choose Xerxes hands down. His work is that good. He is in a different tier. I believe those fortunate enough to try his work will agree. So while it might seem strange most just don’t care about the trade off of running magnacut lower than 64.
> 
> You made some valid points which I feel add value to the conversation. However Jannis/Xerxes is smart, talented and has earned the respect and confidence of the KKF community. I’m not saying he handled this interaction the best but don’t be surprised when the people here cut him quite a bit of slack that is not being extended to jedy.
> 
> I don’t believe Jannis’ intent was to humiliate and demean but it does seem he got defensive. Was that enough to warrant this magnitude of reaction by jedy and the your IG post where you seemed a bit heated, I think not. This is where I was lost in the conversation because initially I had the same thought as Jedy.


I hope I did not come across as suggesting that Xerxes' work is not good. If anything, it is because his work is good that I assume Jedy wanted to see it be the best it could be. I have had the same feeling many times, where I mostly criticize the things that I want to see in their best form. Because I actually wanted to spend my money on those things. Xerxes shouldn't lose the respect or confidence of this community, but it should also be recognized when a mistake (or several mistakes) have been made. This situation reminds me strongly of the Ferrum Forge situation, where one of the brothers publicly apologized for telling his customer "I know more than you." Because at some point it doesn't matter if you know more than your customer, a little bit of humility and openness to new ideas never hurts.


----------



## jedy617

Bico Doce said:


> That’s cool. Sometimes we just catch each other at a bad moment and it goes down from there. The introspection here is much appreciated especially given how you’ve been fielding shots from quite a few of us all day.


I just live and breath this stuff, and spend so much money in the hobby, and I am super passionate about it. I want to open a knife shop. With Brians attitude towards constructive criticism, I get lulled into the fact that everyone wants or needs to hear suggestions. 

It's just really important to me at the end of the day about that reddit and discord stuff especially. I got really mad towards that community because the mods called me a "flipper" after selling a home butcher mystery box knife. I really do live and breath this stuff, and I am not in it to make money (that is until I might have a business haha). I just want to try as many knives as possible. I want that history back then to be buried, and I am quite ashamed of it. I really would love for people to see the knives I have sold in the past and the prices I have listed them at. My threads are in my history of course.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Ferrum Forge.  

Okay, I'm out.


----------



## ModRQC

This thread is proof of the magnetism of a new-sounding thread that basically ends up after a few pages being just one of these usual KKF digression.

Lots of fun... just saying!


----------



## jedy617

ModRQC said:


> This thread is proof of the magnetism of a new-sounding thread that basically ends up after a few pages being just one of these usual KKF digression.
> 
> Lots of fun... just saying!


I uhh. I think I won't venture into off topic again, for my sake and others. Lol.


----------



## Bico Doce

jedy617 said:


> I just live and breath this stuff, and spend so much money in the hobby, and I am super passionate about it. I want to open a knife shop. With Brians attitude towards constructive criticism, I get lulled into the fact that everyone wants or needs to hear suggestions.
> 
> It's just really important to me at the end of the day about that reddit and discord stuff especially. I got really mad towards that community because the mods called me a "flipper" after selling a home butcher mystery box knife. I really do live and breath this stuff, and I am not in it to make money (that is until I might have a business haha). I just want to try as many knives as possible. I want that history back then to be buried, and I am quite ashamed of it. I really would love for people to see the knives I have sold in the past and the prices I have listed them at. My threads are in my history of course.


I do not doubt your passion for this hobby, lol, it is pretty obvious by the money you’re willing to spend and the blood you’ve spilt on this thread alone. 

It’s easy to have passion turn into zealotry when you believe in your cause but the people reject the message despite you knowing it’s for their own “good”. 

You and Brian obviously have a strong friendship that has been developed over some time. I think with Jannis the initial impression was probably not great and he was primed for a negative reaction despite you trying to smooth things over and have a productive conversation.


----------



## jedy617

Bico Doce said:


> I do not doubt your passion for this hobby, lol, it is pretty obvious by the money you’re willing to spend and the blood you’ve spilt on this thread alone.
> 
> It’s easy to have passion turn into zealotry when you believe in your cause but the people reject the message despite you knowing it’s for their own “good”.
> 
> You and Brian obviously have a strong friendship that has been developed over some time. I think with Jannis the initial impression was probably not great and he was primed for a negative reaction despite you trying to smooth things over and have a productive conversation.


You are completely right. And I may or may not talk to Brian every day without fail haha.


----------



## ModRQC

jedy617 said:


> I uhh. I think I won't venture into off topic again, for my sake and others. Lol.


Not at all. Never at all. It's was an affectionate comment. It's proof of a certain consistency about what KKF is supposed to be. Mind you, positive consistency.

It's like... knives really... or stones... or sharpening advice... if enough freedom granted from the start, it'll digress in quite predictable ways, and that's good.

Reading closely, well... new... dormant... or always overexposed stuff... is yet exposed again with a new thrill onto what is to any other regard, by now, biblical stuff.


----------



## Barclid

So what I've gotten out of this:

1) If you follow the recommended general "balanced" heat treat that comes from the man who developed the steel to be used for knives, you are objectively doing it wrong somehow.

2) If one of your reasons for this is that you would prefer your knife to have higher toughness at comparable geometry and are willing to sacrifice some nominal edge retention, you are objectively wrong.

I have learned SO much.

Since Transparent Knives made the very astute observation that data can be manipulated in many ways and that TCC != Cardboard feet cut, I would also like to point out that you cannot then hand-wave away the shift from cardboard to food by saying "well, food is easier to cut so the difference should be even greater." That's simply not how it works.

Since number of knives used is apparently a virtue that needs to be touted at the beginning of every post to establish the validity of your opinion, I'll just say that I've used 5 different Xerxes in all manner of steels and profiles and grinds and every one of them was exceptional, and I found no discernible issue with them. I've also used any number of knives from Western custom makers, Japanese makers and western commercial makers through either my personal collection when working professionally as a chef, when I worked as the knife sharpener at MTC, and when giving private sharpening lessons to a couple of KKF members and getting to use their collection of knives. I've seen a lot of kitchen knives.

As part of this experience, I can say with confidence that my kitchen knives lose what I would consider "appropriate sharpness" for edge-quality-dependent cuts well before they would cease to cut cardboard effectively. I'm essence, I find food to be far more sensitive to edge degradation in practical usage than cardboard cutting. The premise is further flawed because the main cause of edge dulling isn't generally the food itself, but contact with the cutting board, which is another variable in and of itself. I don't care how good you think you are, unless you're cutting everything midair, you're going to be dulling through board contact.

It's a fairly small amount of edge degradation that needs to occur in order to result in suboptimal cut initiation in, say, a bell pepper or the silver skin of meat. And you're far more likely to notice a difference based on the cleanness of the apex formation and the finishing grit size than the equivalent wear resistance of ~6% TCC.

To give you an idea of how picky you can get in certain scenarios, with a ~0.1mm BTE thickness on Takamura R2 cutting scallion for service at Masa, I would have noticeable degradation in quality after 1 bunch of scallion through board contact with hinoki. The same held true for Sukenari HAP40 at almost comparable thickness BTE. In order the meet the standards required at that restaurant, I would simply touch up the edge between bunches of scallion, meaning I preferred the Takamura because it was less wear resistant and required less work to touch up. In such a scenario, why would I care about that extra HRC if such a large gap (63 and 68 in this case) didn't make an appreciable difference to me use case? If anything, it made my job more cumbersome because it took longer to get the edge to the level of refinement I needed to get completely bruise free cuts.

This is an excessive case, I know, but it illustrates my point that it's not as simple as saying "but you can cut way more than 6% more cardboard." Because it's not comparable. Please stop being so dogmatic and maybe think that once, just once, it's possible that you're not right. Thanks.


----------



## jedy617

Barclid said:


> So what I've gotten out of this:
> 
> 1) If you follow the recommended general "balanced" heat treat that comes from the man who developed the steel to be used for knives, you are objectively doing it wrong somehow.
> 
> 2) If one of your reasons for this is that you would prefer your knife to have higher toughness at comparable geometry and are willing to sacrifice some nominal edge retention, you are objectively wrong.
> 
> I have learned SO much.
> 
> Since Transparent Knives made the very astute observation that data can be manipulated in many ways and that TCC != Cardboard feet cut, I would also like to point out that you cannot then hand-wave away the shift from cardboard to food by saying "well, food is easier to cut so the difference should be even greater." That's simply not how it works.
> 
> Since number of knives used is apparently a virtue that needs to be touted at the beginning of every post to establish the validity of your opinion, I'll just say that I've used 5 different Xerxes in all manner of steels and profiles and grinds and every one of them was exceptional, and I found no discernible issue with them. I've also used any number of knives from Western custom makers, Japanese makers and western commercial makers through either my personal collection when working professionally as a chef, when I worked as the knife sharpener at MTC, and when giving private sharpening lessons to a couple of KKF members and getting to use their collection of knives. I've seen a lot of kitchen knives.
> 
> As part of this experience, I can say with confidence that my kitchen knives lose what I would consider "appropriate sharpness" for edge-quality-dependent cuts well before they would cease to cut cardboard effectively. I'm essence, I find food to be far more sensitive to edge degradation in practical usage than cardboard cutting. The premise is further flawed because the main cause of edge dulling isn't generally the food itself, but contact with the cutting board, which is another variable in and of itself. I don't care how good you think you are, unless you're cutting everything midair, you're going to be dulling through board contact.
> 
> It's a fairly small amount of edge degradation that needs to occur in order to result in suboptimal cut initiation in, say, a bell pepper or the silver skin of meat. And you're far more likely to notice a difference based on the cleanness of the apex formation and the finishing grit size than the equivalent wear resistance of ~6% TCC.
> 
> To give you an idea of how picky you can get in certain scenarios, with a ~0.1mm BTE thickness on Takamura R2 cutting scallion for service at Masa, I would have noticeable degradation in quality after 1 bunch of scallion through board contact with hinoki. The same held true for Sukenari HAP40 at almost comparable thickness BTE. In order the meet the standards required at that restaurant, I would simply touch up the edge between bunches of scallion, meaning I preferred the Takamura because it was less wear resistant and required less work to touch up. In such a scenario, why would I care about that extra HRC if such a large gap (63 and 68 in this case) didn't make an appreciable difference to me use case? If anything, it made my job more cumbersome because it took longer to get the edge to the level of refinement I needed to get completely bruise free cuts.
> 
> This is an excessive case, I know, but it illustrates my point that it's not as simple as saying "but you can cut way more than 6% more cardboard." Because it's not comparable. Please stop being so dogmatic and maybe think that once, just once, it's possible that you're not right. Thanks.


I'm not right. @Transparent Knives is right. Sorry your maker that you hold in such high esteem is not doing justice to a great steel Larrin designed. I'm sure you have cut many thousands of scallions with your xerxes. If he upped his heat treat on the magnacut it would for sure cut more of them. I don't think scallions are that tough anyway. The heat treat would not change your sharpening or touch ups really, due to the carbide content being the primary factor on sharpening, not the HRC.


----------



## jedy617

Barclid said:


> Glad I pegged you accurately from the outset. Insufferable twat.


Good day to you too sir!


----------



## Barclid

I bet you'd like to know my education level next?


----------



## jedy617

Barclid said:


> I bet you'd like to know my education level next?


No, but please tell me how many michellin star restaurants you cooked at, oh holy scallion slicer

Edit: also please let it be known I am not into pegging, he is!


----------



## Michi




----------



## brotondo

jedy617 said:


> No, but please tell me how many michellin star restaurants you cooked at, oh holy scallion slicer
> 
> Edit: also please let it be known I am not into pegging, he is!


Yeah you really matured and grew over the last few years . Once a Jedy, always a Jedy .


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

brotondo said:


> Yeah you really matured and grew over the last few years . Once a Jedy, always a Jedy .



I don't know the origin, but I dig your avatar.


----------



## brotondo

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I don't know the origin, but I dig your avatar.


Thanks! The squirtle squad episode is a gold mine for avatars.


----------



## jedy617

brotondo said:


> Yeah you really matured and grew over the last few years . Once a Jedy, always a Jedy .


Definition of a Jedy.....chilling on this forum for over 3 years before creating the big controversy of....(checks book) telling a maker to run his steel harder? You can type as many emojis as you like, but if I am a clown, everyone here is part of a circus  

Really glad the reddit crowd came back to their inactive accounts on here to say hi!


----------



## brotondo

jedy617 said:


> Definition of a Jedy.....chilling on this forum for about 4 years before creating the big controversy of....(checks book) telling a maker to run his steel harder? You can type as many emojis as you like, but if I am a clown, everyone here is part of a circus


The controversy wasn’t what you said with regards to hardness. It’s who you said it to and how you said it and beyond that it’s how you are now handling it.

People are just asking you to humble your ass up a little bit. Did you make the steel? Do you make world class knives? Do you have a PhD in the heat treatment of metals? If not then what gives you the right? Buying a **** ton of knives does not turn you into an expert, chatting with someone does not make you an expert, passion does not make you an expert. Hard work, dedication, rigorous scientific/academic training do. Please set aside your insecurities for enough time and stop clowning around and recognize that something you did was offensive to someone who has dedicated their life to making excellent knives that people adore. The take a moment to see that others on the internet that watch this don’t think you’re being clever or winning, just digging a deeper hole of arrogant clowning . The best thing any of us could do to save you would be to end the thread but my god it’s entertaining to watch the car wreck .


----------



## umeboshi

jedy617 said:


> I just live and breath this stuff, and spend so much money in the hobby, and I am super passionate about it. I want to open a knife shop. With Brians attitude towards constructive criticism, I get lulled into the fact that everyone wants or needs to hear suggestions.
> 
> It's just really important to me at the end of the day about that reddit and discord stuff especially. I got really mad towards that community because the mods called me a "flipper" after selling a home butcher mystery box knife. I really do live and breath this stuff, and I am not in it to make money (that is until I might have a business haha). I just want to try as many knives as possible. I want that history back then to be buried, and I am quite ashamed of it. I really would love for people to see the knives I have sold in the past and the prices I have listed them at. My threads are in my history of course.


disclaimer: i know very little about magnacut and know very little about this drama thats going on, but does being able to spend a lot of money on knives mean anything? that sounds like casual hobbyists like myself will never know as much or get as much out of this hobby and thats really disheartening :/


----------



## jedy617

brotondo said:


> The controversy wasn’t what you said with regards to hardness. It’s who you said it to and how you said it and beyond that it’s how you are now handling it.
> 
> People are just asking you to humble your ass up a little bit. Did you make the steel? Do you make world class knives? Do you have a PhD in the heat treatment of metals? If not then what gives you the right? Buying a **** ton of knives does not turn you into an expert, chatting with someone does not make you an expert, passion does not make you an expert. Hard work, dedication, rigorous scientific/academic training do. Please set aside your insecurities for enough time and stop clowning around and recognize that something you did was offensive to someone who has dedicated their life to making excellent knives that people adore. The take a moment to see that others on the internet that watch this don’t think you’re being clever or winning, just digging a deeper hole of arrogant clowning . The best thing any of us could do to save you would be to end the thread but my god it’s entertaining to watch the car wreck .


I think you are missing context. "Humble my ass up"? In my private DM's with this maker I was talking up about how amazing his knives were but it would be cool to see them ran harder. What more exactly do you want me to be humble about? Do I need to pray at makers feet for asking for higher HRC? 

Next, my steel guru Brian makes world class knives. His reblades in super steels sell out within seconds, and fills up his books likewise just as fast. I defer to him in all things steel. I feel like you did not read his completely rational, scientific response on why Xerxes made a very bad comparison for his heat treatment choices. Brian did all the dedication and testing for me. I just did the using, and hey what do you know, one hardness is better! I don't even have to use my brain 

"the take a moment to see that others on the internet that watch this don’t think you’re being clever or winning, just digging a deeper hole of arrogant clowning " - in response to this...I'll just tell you there is a whole different community who is also watching this, laughing with their hard magnacut and dying that a maker would be so soft, in mentality and steel. 

Reminder, I am not here attacking any forum members character, using any ad hominem, etc etc. You all decided to go with that. I'm not going to be humble when I say I think I am the bigger person here. Honestly quite proud. The old me would have been digging on every single thing you posted like you guys are doing and looking for anything to nail you on. Nah man, that aint me anymore.


----------



## HSC /// Knives

jedy617 said:


> Look at the date when this picture is posted. This is when I had my first magnacut knife made. I can basically promise that I have had at least 6 months of using, and sharpening magnacut before any chef knife makers in Europe were using it.
> 
> View attachment 202006



let's see here, I made half a dozen Magnacut in the 62 range May 2021, I believe they were all sold to forum members, i welcome their feedback here

magnacut 62


----------



## jedy617

umeboshi said:


> disclaimer: i know very little about magnacut and know very little about this drama thats going on, but does being able to spend a lot of money on knives mean anything? that sounds like casual hobbyists like myself will never know as much or get as much out of this hobby and thats really disheartening :/


No not at all, there are many great makers using steels like magnacut for fair prices. I know @MSicardCutlery can definitely make you a nice magnacut gyuto at a reasonable price. I have plenty of other makers I could recommend if you need any let me know.


----------



## enrico l

Well, I posted this before I left for work and had just gotten home. That was a real roller coaster of a read. 

Seeing how I can provide 0 knowledge on this subject. It was cool to see some super specific info on a steel. I’ve definitely learned something.


----------



## jedy617

HSC /// Knives said:


> let's see here, I made half a dozen Magnacut in the 62 range May 2021, I believe they were all sold to forum members, i welcome their feedback here
> 
> magnacut 62


Hey Harbeer, I have heard great things about your work, and love the steels that you work with. I have no doubt those gyutos performed great, but I am still of the opinion that if I am using magnacut, it can and should be ran harder for the edge retention and stability benefits as mentioned. What are you currently running your magnacut at, and do you let a customer spec their own heat treat or at least hardness range?

@umeboshi I would also highly recommend HSC.


----------



## brotondo

umeboshi said:


> disclaimer: i know very little about magnacut and know very little about this drama thats going on, but does being able to spend a lot of money on knives mean anything? that sounds like casual hobbyists like myself will never know as much or get as much out of this hobby and thats really disheartening :/


Not at all. All of the steel stuff is standard metallurgy, most sharpening stuff is building technique and an understanding of abrasion and the physics of cutting / impact of geometry. One can go deep into understanding metal and really delve into the hobby without just chucking money at things. It definitely helps to have a good knife that you are comfortable exploring and it’s even better if you have friends or local knife shops you can play around in. When I see someone touting their receipts as validation it just makes me giggle. 


umeboshi said:


> disclaimer: i know very little about magnacut and know very little about this drama thats going on, but does being able to spend a lot of money on knives mean anything? that sounds like casual hobbyists like myself will never know as much or get as much out of this hobby and thats really disheartening :/


----------



## jedy617

enrico l said:


> Well, I posted this before I left for work and had just gotten home. That was a real roller coaster of a read.
> 
> Seeing how I can provide 0 knowledge on this subject. It was cool to see some super specific info on a steel. I’ve definitely learned something.


I'm glad some people got something out of this. I would love people to ask more questions in regards to heat treat, metallurgy, and geometry as @Transparent Knives is the most knowledgeable man I know on the topic personally (besides Larrin of course, but I do not know him personally). He has taught a lot of people in the pocket knife world to not accept subpar or average heat treats for super steels, and the community is better for it.


----------



## brotondo

jedy617 said:


> I think you are missing context. "Humble my ass up"? In my private DM's with this maker I was talking up about how amazing his knives were but it would be cool to see them ran harder. What more exactly do you want me to be humble about? Do I need to pray at makers feet for asking for higher HRC?
> 
> Next, my steel guru Brian makes world class knives. His reblades in super steels sell out within seconds, and fills up his books likewise just as fast. I defer to him in all things steel. I feel like you did not read his completely rational, scientific response on why Xerxes made a very bad comparison for his heat treatment choices. Brian did all the dedication and testing for me. I just did the using, and hey what do you know, one hardness is better! I don't even have to use my brain
> 
> "the take a moment to see that others on the internet that watch this don’t think you’re being clever or winning, just digging a deeper hole of arrogant clowning " - in response to this...I'll just tell you there is a whole different community who is also watching this, laughing with their hard magnacut and dying that a maker would be so soft, in mentality and steel.
> 
> Reminder, I am not here attacking any forum members character, using any ad hominem, etc etc. You all decided to go with that. I'm not going to be humble when I say I think I am the bigger person here. Honestly quite proud. The old me would have been digging on every single thing you posted like you guys are doing and looking for anything to nail you on. Nah man, that aint me anymore.


----------



## umeboshi

thanks for the recommendations. honestly i dont think i can afford customs.
based off of my own understanding chefs knives and pocket knives are different worlds. is it that important that temper be pushed harder for a chefs knife? it seems like xerxes is well respected and has his own thoughts on it and with all the pushback from many people in this forum, why not let it be? i like to read this forum for everyones thoughts and lurking in BST for interesting pieces so i guess its weird that i jumped in on the drama thread haha


----------



## jedy617

brotondo said:


>


----------



## jedy617

umeboshi said:


> thanks for the recommendations. honestly i dont think i can afford customs.
> based off of my own understanding chefs knives and pocket knives are different worlds. is it that important that temper be pushed harder for a chefs knife? it seems like xerxes is well respected and has his own thoughts on it and with all the pushback from many people in this forum, why not let it be? i like to read this forum for everyones thoughts and lurking in BST for interesting pieces so i guess its weird that i jumped in on the drama thread haha


I highly suggest avoiding drama threads and going into the kitchen knife section of the forums for your information. This is just internet arguing. I highly suggest filling out the forum: What knife should I buy found here, and some people can help with recommendations: The "Which Knife Should I Buy?" Questionnaire - v2

enjoy your stay.


----------



## Jovidah

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Hey, on another note, don't I remember right that Janis suffered a serious injury? If so, it's great to hear he's back in the shop.
> 
> Am I mixing up my makers?


No you're correct...and yes seems like he's been able to do at least some work again.


Barclid said:


> So what I've gotten out of this:
> 
> 1) If you follow the recommended general "balanced" heat treat that comes from the man who developed the steel to be used for knives, you are objectively doing it wrong somehow.
> 
> 2) If one of your reasons for this is that you would prefer your knife to have higher toughness at comparable geometry and are willing to sacrifice some nominal edge retention, you are objectively wrong.
> 
> I have learned SO much.
> 
> Since Transparent Knives made the very astute observation that data can be manipulated in many ways and that TCC != Cardboard feet cut, I would also like to point out that you cannot then hand-wave away the shift from cardboard to food by saying "well, food is easier to cut so the difference should be even greater." That's simply not how it works.
> 
> Since number of knives used is apparently a virtue that needs to be touted at the beginning of every post to establish the validity of your opinion, I'll just say that I've used 5 different Xerxes in all manner of steels and profiles and grinds and every one of them was exceptional, and I found no discernible issue with them. I've also used any number of knives from Western custom makers, Japanese makers and western commercial makers through either my personal collection when working professionally as a chef, when I worked as the knife sharpener at MTC, and when giving private sharpening lessons to a couple of KKF members and getting to use their collection of knives. I've seen a lot of kitchen knives.
> 
> As part of this experience, I can say with confidence that my kitchen knives lose what I would consider "appropriate sharpness" for edge-quality-dependent cuts well before they would cease to cut cardboard effectively. I'm essence, I find food to be far more sensitive to edge degradation in practical usage than cardboard cutting. The premise is further flawed because the main cause of edge dulling isn't generally the food itself, but contact with the cutting board, which is another variable in and of itself. I don't care how good you think you are, unless you're cutting everything midair, you're going to be dulling through board contact.
> 
> It's a fairly small amount of edge degradation that needs to occur in order to result in suboptimal cut initiation in, say, a bell pepper or the silver skin of meat. And you're far more likely to notice a difference based on the cleanness of the apex formation and the finishing grit size than the equivalent wear resistance of ~6% TCC.
> 
> To give you an idea of how picky you can get in certain scenarios, with a ~0.1mm BTE thickness on Takamura R2 cutting scallion for service at Masa, I would have noticeable degradation in quality after 1 bunch of scallion through board contact with hinoki. The same held true for Sukenari HAP40 at almost comparable thickness BTE. In order the meet the standards required at that restaurant, I would simply touch up the edge between bunches of scallion, meaning I preferred the Takamura because it was less wear resistant and required less work to touch up. In such a scenario, why would I care about that extra HRC if such a large gap (63 and 68 in this case) didn't make an appreciable difference to me use case? If anything, it made my job more cumbersome because it took longer to get the edge to the level of refinement I needed to get completely bruise free cuts.
> 
> This is an excessive case, I know, but it illustrates my point that it's not as simple as saying "but you can cut way more than 6% more cardboard." Because it's not comparable. Please stop being so dogmatic and maybe think that once, just once, it's possible that you're not right. Thanks.


This a thousand times. Hard focus on catra results is imo of limited utility in the kitchen when the main mechanism of dulling is neither food nor cardboard, but mechanical impact with the cutting board.

On the bright side: this thread certainly delivered upon its promise...


----------



## Dhoff

jedy617 said:


> I think you are missing context. "Humble my ass up"? In my private DM's with this maker I was talking up about how amazing his knives were but it would be cool to see them ran harder. What more exactly do you want me to be humble about? Do I need to pray at makers feet for asking for higher HRC?
> 
> Next, my steel guru Brian makes world class knives. His reblades in super steels sell out within seconds, and fills up his books likewise just as fast. I defer to him in all things steel. I feel like you did not read his completely rational, scientific response on why Xerxes made a very bad comparison for his heat treatment choices. Brian did all the dedication and testing for me. I just did the using, and hey what do you know, one hardness is better! I don't even have to use my brain
> 
> "the take a moment to see that others on the internet that watch this don’t think you’re being clever or winning, just digging a deeper hole of arrogant clowning " - in response to this...I'll just tell you there is a whole different community who is also watching this, laughing with their hard magnacut and dying that a maker would be so soft, in mentality and steel.
> 
> Reminder, I am not here attacking any forum members character, using any ad hominem, etc etc. You all decided to go with that. I'm not going to be humble when I say I think I am the bigger person here. Honestly quite proud. The old me would have been digging on every single thing you posted like you guys are doing and looking for anything to nail you on. Nah man, that aint me anymore.



While I cannot judge your dm's, the public posts came across (to me) as if you "knew better".

this is not to say that was your intention, but communication, especially in the written media, can be a b*tch.

Instead of asking why he chose that HRC you simply told him it was too low.

Then it came across like a lecture that unless it was a cleaver it was too low.

Not sure you can read the thread on IG but further up, someone asked "I'm curious to why you used those steels..."


That is to me a more open approach, and I doubt the case would've ended where it is now.

sorry, just my 2 cents cause I got curious what all the fuzz was about


----------



## jedy617

Dhoff said:


> While I cannot judge your dm's, the public posts came across (to me) as if you "knew better".
> 
> this is not to say that was your intention, but communication, especially in the written media, can be a b*tch.
> 
> Instead of asking why he chose that HRC you simply told him it was too low.
> 
> Then it came across like a lecture that unless it was a cleaver it was too low.
> 
> Not sure you can read the thread on IG but further up, someone asked "I'm curious to why you used those steels..."
> 
> 
> That is to me a more open approach, and I doubt the case would've ended where it is now.
> 
> sorry, just my 2 cents cause I got curious what all the fuzz was about


This is definitely a fair judgement call, and a reasonable response which thankfully a number of people on here have given to me, so kudos. I agree with most of that. I think what's also missing is a bit of context on how it happened. This wasn't a formulated well thought out plan to poop on a maker. I was busy shopping I believe, was scrolling through instagram and waited in line. Didn't even see the knife was from Xerxes. Saw it was a beautiful damascus gyuto and said 62 hrc magnacut. So I just typed quickly that it looked awesome, but run it a bit harder, and then I moved on with my day until the comments flooded in. Was supposed to be a simple suggestion that turned out to be way bigger.


----------



## HSC /// Knives

jedy617 said:


> Hey Harbeer, I have heard great things about your work, and love the steels that you work with. I have no doubt those gyutos performed great, but I am still of the opinion that if I am using magnacut, it can and should be ran harder for the edge retention and stability benefits as mentioned. What are you currently running your magnacut at, and do you let a customer spec their own heat treat or at least hardness range?
> 
> @umeboshi I would also highly recommend HSC.


The last ones I've made are in the 63/64 range, I'm also doing this with Z wear/Cru Wear.

In general I believe in giving a customer what they want, so yes, if it's reasonable and the customer and I have a clear understanding of expectations, I give them what they want

Here's the feedback from a forum member on the last Magnacut at 63 rc

this one


----------



## jedy617

HSC /// Knives said:


> The last ones I've made are in the 63/64 range, I'm also doing this with Z wear/Cru Wear.
> 
> In general I believe in giving this customer what they want, so yes, if it's reasonable and the customer and I have a clear understanding of expectations, I give them what they want
> 
> Here's the feedback from a forum member on the last Magnacut at 63 rc
> 
> this one
> 
> View attachment 202088


That is really awesome, big props to you. I will have to order a knife soon if that is alright. I'm actually pretty easy to work with. I pick a size, the steel, and the handle material and tell the maker to give me whatever they want to give me really in regards to the rest. I have just started with western makers, but I have been following your stuff for years. Let me sell some of my stuff I have now and we could work on a cool build if you would be open.


----------



## Carl Kotte

Thanks everybody for contributing!


----------



## Nemo

It seems as though some members are perhaps taking the thread title a little too literally.

It would be a shame if this led to so many reports that we have to shut it down.

Maybe tone it down a little?


----------



## BrianKim309

Barclid said:


> So what I've gotten out of this:
> 
> 1) If you follow the recommended general "balanced" heat treat that comes from the man who developed the steel to be used for knives, you are objectively doing it wrong somehow.
> 
> 2) If one of your reasons for this is that you would prefer your knife to have higher toughness at comparable geometry and are willing to sacrifice some nominal edge retention, you are objectively wrong.
> 
> I have learned SO much.
> 
> Since Transparent Knives made the very astute observation that data can be manipulated in many ways and that TCC != Cardboard feet cut, I would also like to point out that you cannot then hand-wave away the shift from cardboard to food by saying "well, food is easier to cut so the difference should be even greater." That's simply not how it works.
> 
> Since number of knives used is apparently a virtue that needs to be touted at the beginning of every post to establish the validity of your opinion, I'll just say that I've used 5 different Xerxes in all manner of steels and profiles and grinds and every one of them was exceptional, and I found no discernible issue with them. I've also used any number of knives from Western custom makers, Japanese makers and western commercial makers through either my personal collection when working professionally as a chef, when I worked as the knife sharpener at MTC, and when giving private sharpening lessons to a couple of KKF members and getting to use their collection of knives. I've seen a lot of kitchen knives.
> 
> As part of this experience, I can say with confidence that my kitchen knives lose what I would consider "appropriate sharpness" for edge-quality-dependent cuts well before they would cease to cut cardboard effectively. I'm essence, I find food to be far more sensitive to edge degradation in practical usage than cardboard cutting. The premise is further flawed because the main cause of edge dulling isn't generally the food itself, but contact with the cutting board, which is another variable in and of itself. I don't care how good you think you are, unless you're cutting everything midair, you're going to be dulling through board contact.
> 
> It's a fairly small amount of edge degradation that needs to occur in order to result in suboptimal cut initiation in, say, a bell pepper or the silver skin of meat. And you're far more likely to notice a difference based on the cleanness of the apex formation and the finishing grit size than the equivalent wear resistance of ~6% TCC.
> 
> To give you an idea of how picky you can get in certain scenarios, with a ~0.1mm BTE thickness on Takamura R2 cutting scallion for service at Masa, I would have noticeable degradation in quality after 1 bunch of scallion through board contact with hinoki. The same held true for Sukenari HAP40 at almost comparable thickness BTE. In order the meet the standards required at that restaurant, I would simply touch up the edge between bunches of scallion, meaning I preferred the Takamura because it was less wear resistant and required less work to touch up. In such a scenario, why would I care about that extra HRC if such a large gap (63 and 68 in this case) didn't make an appreciable difference to me use case? If anything, it made my job more cumbersome because it took longer to get the edge to the level of refinement I needed to get completely bruise free cuts.
> 
> This is an excessive case, I know, but it illustrates my point that it's not as simple as saying "but you can cut way more than 6% more cardboard." Because it's not comparable. Please stop being so dogmatic and maybe think that once, just once, it's possible that you're not right. Thanks.


Hello, I would hope those are not the two points you gleaned from this discussion. The "balanced" heat treat is meant ideally for harder use fixed blades. It can "pass" in different applications but is not optimal. 62 HRC MagnaCut and lower specializes in ductility. If you don't believe me, ask Shawn of triplebhandmade, who helped Larrin test and develop the steel. You don't need to take my word for it. This is why in his article Larrin specifically points out the benefits of higher hardness for edge stability in chef knives that have thinner geometry and aren't being used to baton through wood. So it's not that you are "objectively doing it wrong" if you run chef knives at 62 HRC, it's that there is room for improvement. And knifemakers should relish the opportunity to improve, not run from it. The second point you have gleaned is also not accurate. There is nothing "objectively wrong" with prioritizing toughness, if you are open to and transparent about the things that you sacrifice. But the differences are not nominal as you suggested. That is precisely the issue with how this was framed, as TCC value-differential percentages cannot be compared to Charpy impact test results, which should not be framed as percentages to begin with. I explained this in my initial post, but when lower values have more impact than high values it is inaccurate to describe these values as percentages. In other words, comparing "6% wear resistance gain to 30% toughness loss" is flawed.

Further, I did not say simply that because food is easier to cut the difference would be greater. TCC is a very specific abrasive media as I said that is meant to dull knives disproportionately quickly. Proportions directly affect percentage values. The example of going from TCC to cardboard shows that 6% wear resistance gain is not actually 6% wear resistance gain. Take for instance a Spyderco Mule Team around 62-62.5 HRC and compare it to the 64.2 HRC test sample. We go from 270 ft of cardboard ot 343 ft of cardboard, or a 21% increase in that media. From mule team to 65 would be 270 ft to 431 ft, or a 60% increase for a "41%" decrease in toughness. 41% is in quotes because as mentioned earlier percentages actually don't make sense for Charpy impact values as lower values are more significant.

I actually don't take issue with your example of cutting scallions and needing to touch up the edge. If, for your application, you prefer ease of sharpening for your skill level I think that's perfectly fine. That is different, however, from publicly stating that MagnaCut at 62 HRC is optimal because of a comparison of percentages that cannot be compared. Xerxes' exact words were "I have decided that the small increase in wear resistance is not in proportion to the large loss in toughness" based on "But the wear resistance of the MagnaCut at 64hrc is still only 6% better than at 62hrc." and "At the same time, I lose almost 30% toughness (from about 17 ft-lbs to about 12 ft-lbs)". This reasoning is flawed and very damaging in the community I spend most of my time in, where makers regularly misinterpret and misuse data to justify heat treats that are suboptimal for the use case in question.


----------



## mpier

All I can say is that if I was a Psychiatrist I could have a field day with this thread, so many mental issues here!!!


----------



## jedy617

Mental health is important everyone, remember to take care of yourself!

In the meantime I am working on an iron clad tanaka super, sanding to about 800 and going on stones. I'm upping my game a bit and really happy with the progress at only 200 grit. Take a look! This is about kitchen knives right? Still got some stubborn scratches to get out, but following a few hand sanding guides is really helping


----------



## Barclid

Transparent Knives said:


> Hello, I would hope those are not the two points you gleaned from this discussion. The "balanced" heat treat is meant ideally for harder use fixed blades. It can "pass" in different applications but is not optimal. 62 HRC MagnaCut and lower specializes in ductility. If you don't believe me, ask Shawn of triplebhandmade, who helped Larrin test and develop the steel. You don't need to take my word for it. This is why in his article Larrin specifically points out the benefits of higher hardness for edge stability in chef knives that have thinner geometry and aren't being used to baton through wood. So it's not that you are "objectively doing it wrong" if you run chef knives at 62 HRC, it's that there is room for improvement. And knifemakers should relish the opportunity to improve, not run from it. The second point you have gleaned is also not accurate. There is nothing "objectively wrong" with prioritizing toughness, if you are open to and transparent about the things that you sacrifice. But the differences are not nominal as you suggested. That is precisely the issue with how this was framed, as TCC value-differential percentages cannot be compared to Charpy impact test results, which should not be framed as percentages to begin with. I explained this in my initial post, but when lower values have more impact than high values it is inaccurate to describe these values as percentages. In other words, comparing "6% wear resistance gain to 30% toughness loss" is flawed.
> 
> Further, I did not say simply that because food is easier to cut the difference would be greater. TCC is a very specific abrasive media as I said that is meant to dull knives disproportionately quickly. Proportions directly affect percentage values. The example of going from TCC to cardboard shows that 6% wear resistance gain is not actually 6% wear resistance gain. Take for instance a Spyderco Mule Team around 62-62.5 HRC and compare it to the 64.2 HRC test sample. We go from 270 ft of cardboard ot 343 ft of cardboard, or a 21% increase in that media. From mule team to 65 would be 270 ft to 431 ft, or a 60% increase for a "41%" decrease in toughness. 41% is in quotes because as mentioned earlier percentages actually don't make sense for Charpy impact values as lower values are more significant.
> 
> I actually don't take issue with your example of cutting scallions and needing to touch up the edge. If, for your application, you prefer ease of sharpening for your skill level I think that's perfectly fine. That is different, however, from publicly stating that MagnaCut at 62 HRC is optimal because of a comparison of percentages that cannot be compared. Xerxes' exact words were "I have decided that the small increase in wear resistance is not in proportion to the large loss in toughness" based on "But the wear resistance of the MagnaCut at 64hrc is still only 6% better than at 62hrc." and "At the same time, I lose almost 30% toughness (from about 17 ft-lbs to about 12 ft-lbs)". This reasoning is flawed and very damaging in the community I spend most of my time in, where makers regularly misinterpret and misuse data to justify heat treats that are suboptimal for the use case in question.



Apparently my sarcasm went over your head, and that's fine. Both you and Jedy are blowing what Jannis said way out of proportion. You claim he said that 62 HRc is "optimal" for the steel, rather than what is actually in the quote that you pulled from him, in which he uses the phrase: "I have decided"

Since I can tell now that you struggle with nuance, this functionally means "in my opinion."

Perhaps all of us here can take Larrin's advice, as he's already spoken on the subject and not start witch hunts because someone's using Magnacut at a hardness that you don't prefer. Time stamped for your pleasure:


----------



## BrianKim309

Barclid said:


> Apparently my sarcasm went over your head, and that's fine. Both you and Jedy are blowing what Jannis said way out of proportion. You claim he said that 62 HRc is "optimal" for the steel, rather than what is actually in the quote that you pulled from him, in which he uses the phrase: "I have decided"
> 
> Since I can tell now that you struggle with nuance, this functionally means "in my opinion."
> 
> Perhaps all of us here can take Larrin's advice, as he's already spoken on the subject and not start witch hunts because someone's using Magnacut at a hardness that you don't prefer. Time stamped for your pleasure:



I think it’s unfortunate that you think constructive criticism on how one can improve knives that are not garbage but could be better is the same as starting a witch hunt. I personally don’t take the victim mentality to criticism but it’s your prerogative to see the world as you see fit. You conveniently ignored that Xerxes compared percentage values for CATRA and Charpy impact test results.

Since I can tell now that you struggle with understanding how to interpret data, this functionally means “he doesn’t know what he’s talking about”.


----------



## jedy617

Have you asked how many knives that @Transparent Knives has made in magnacut? How many test blades in various HRC ranges? Don't listen to me, listen to him. For custom makers, I really am not sure there is anyone who has made and tested more blades. Including test blades how many have you made Brian?

You are giving two conflicting viewpoints. I am first mocked because I am a user so I personally can't see the difference in hardness and usage. So then I bring a maker who is at the forefront of using this steel, and suddenly he is also wrong as a maker too... I think your vision (and others) is just tainted because of disdain for me.


----------



## BrianKim309

jedy617 said:


> Have you asked how many knives that @Transparent Knives has made in magnacut? How many test blades in various HRC ranges? Don't listen to me, listen to him. For custom makers, I really am not sure there is anyone who has made and tested more blades. Including test blades how many have you made Brian?


Just for testing purposes I've made 12 different MagnaCut test blades, with the following different heat treat protocols. Some were the same hardness but achieved in different ways, ranging from 62 to 65 HRC. I have tested:

2200/300 (65.0), 2200/350 (64.2), 2200/400 (63.3), 2200/500 (61.9), 2150/300 (64.4), 2150/350 (63.3), 2150/400 (62.5), 2100/300 (64.1), 2100/350 (62.2), 2100/400 (61.8), 2050/300 (63.1), and 2050/350 (62)

All cryo after quench and after first temper, two temper cycles

For thin geometry I have seen by far the best results at 64+ HRC. The edge stability is not comparable with 62 HRC, you can hammer it into a grade 8 bolt with minimal chipping even at 8 thou BTE at 18 DPS, which is very abusive. At below 63 HRC not even considering the edge retention loss there is significant loss of stability and you see larger deflections and rolling with similar impact. In brass shaving tests, at least 64.5 HRC is necessary to not see massive damage at thin geometry. People really fail to understand what "toughness" means. The word "tough" makes people visualize strength and resilience to damage, but this could not be more inaccurate. I'm sure many people in this thread identify as "tough guys" and have an affinity for the word. Increased toughness in the context of knives only means decreased likelihood of specific failure modes. Instead, we typically value strength when thin geometry is concerned.


----------



## BillHanna

This is all @ian ‘s fault


----------



## jedy617

Factual information, my name would not have had to been dragged through the mud if this didn't happen 
(In before it's already been dragged)


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Transparent Knives said:


> I think it’s unfortunate that you think constructive criticism on how one can improve knives that are not garbage but could be better is the same as starting a witch hunt. I personally don’t take the victim mentality to criticism but it’s your prerogative to see the world as you see fit. You conveniently ignored that Xerxes compared percentage values for CATRA and Charpy impact test results.
> 
> Since I can tell now that you struggle with understanding how to interpret data, this functionally means “he doesn’t know what he’s talking about”.



I think it's unfortunate that you made an account here just to back your buddy's play and continue a one-sided disparagement of a fellow maker, a highly respected one at that. You can argue that you're just presenting facts but you'd be missing the point.

There's two different issues at play here:

1. The technical debate of this specific steel and its heat treatment.

2. The approach.

Your conduct ensures I would never do business with you.


----------



## jedy617

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I think it's unfortunate that you made an account here just to back your buddy's play and continue a one-sided disparagement of a fellow maker, a highly respected one at that. You can argue that you're just presenting facts but you'd be missing the point.
> 
> There's two different issues at play here:
> 
> 1. The technical debate of this specific steel and its heat treatment.
> 
> 2. The approach.
> 
> Your conduct ensures I would never do business with you.


His conduct? Explaining that...xerxes comparison of toughness and edge retention data is fundamentally wrong? Teaching everyone about heat treatment and steel? I think Brian will survive. He has people beating down doors for his stuff and can't make enough, if he opened his books for more than a minute, his backlog would be years long. He is a true friend, coming in and defending my name as the maker who has tested, and sold more magnacut than anyone, and not out here just attacking character like others on here.


----------



## BrianKim309

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I think it's unfortunate that you made an account here just to back your buddy's play and continue a one-sided disparagement of a fellow maker, a highly respected one at that. You can argue that you're just presenting facts but you'd be missing the point.
> 
> There's two different issues at play here:
> 
> 1. The technical debate of this specific steel and its heat treatment.
> 
> 2. The approach.
> 
> Your conduct ensures I would never do business with you.


I'm not concerned about your business but I am always open (unlike some others) to constructive criticism about both my knives and conduct. Please let me know what issues you had with how I have approached things, as with the exception of one statement "Since I can tell now that you struggle with understanding how to interpret data, this functionally means “he doesn’t know what he’s talking about” I feel I have been fairly polite and civil. That one statement by the way, is a direct response to the comment using the exact same wording to insult me. I think it's fair to use someone's own syntax to reply to them when they act rudely.


----------



## DrEriksson

I think there are two issues here which have been seriously ignored. 

First is that @jedy617 came off as seriously rude. It seems as if everyone bar Jedy agrees that he came off as rude. 

The second is that the criticism to Xerxes (not tagging, have a feeling he’s not interested) stated that Xerxes was factually in the wrong. When it comes to this point there are two camps. One is Thomas and Xerxes, the other is @Transparent Knives supportee buy another guy on YouTube (sorry for not tagging, not sure if he wanna be dragged into this). So far the argument from the latter camp seems prove that there is reason to further investigate the merits of high HRC Magnacut. However, I’ve not seen good evidence to support the claim that Xerxes is incorrect in his choice. I don’t think the cardboard test on the YouTube channel have been proven valid, reliable, or generalizable to Xerxes’ knives. 

It also bugs me that this could’ve been solved with: “Sorry. I didn’t mean to dismiss what you do. If you wanna look into some cool info about Magnacut in EDC knives, hit me up.”


----------



## M1k3

Dafuq? This is still going on???

*Clears throat*

Am I the only one that hears what the guy that came up with MagnaCut, which he just so happens to have a PhD in this **** AND has a well regarded knife maker as his Dad, says about "ideal" HRC for the steel?


----------



## BrianKim309

DrEriksson said:


> I think there are two issues here which have been seriously ignored.
> 
> First is that @jedy617 came off as seriously rude. It seems as if everyone bar Jedy agrees that he came off as rude.
> 
> The second is that the criticism to Xerxes (not tagging, have a feeling he’s not interested) stated that Xerxes was factually in the wrong. When it comes to this point there are two camps. One is Thomas and Xerxes, the other is @Transparent Knives supportee buy another guy on YouTube (sorry for not tagging, not sure if he wanna be dragged into this). So far the argument from the latter camp seems prove that there is reason to further investigate the merits of high HRC Magnacut. However, I’ve not seen good evidence to support the claim that Xerxes is incorrect in his choice. I don’t think the cardboard test on the YouTube channel have been proven valid, reliable, or generalizable to Xerxes’ knives.
> 
> It also bugs me that this could’ve been solved with: “Sorry. I didn’t mean to dismiss what you do. If you wanna look into some cool info about Magnacut in EDC knives, hit me up.”


It hasn't been completely ignored, as I did mention earlier that civility is a two-way street. Both sides should have been more respectful, particularly Xerxes. As I stated previously, as makers our goal should be not only to make the best product we can but also to encourage others to actively share our passion and question/challenge us so that we can improve. The simple comment "Awesome but needs higher hrc" should not be cause for going on the defensive. I've gotten several such comments in the past and never had an issue. "Cool but can you do X, Y or Z". I simply consider if X, Y or Z is something I want to do or look more into. I would certainly never call a potential customer's concerns or suggestions "nonsense."

As for cardboard cut testing's reliability or validity, there's no way to "prove" that but needless to say Outpost76 records his cutting and goes into depth on the variables he addresses. This is just one factor among many, the other being that aside from edge retention, edge stability is also a major concern. There is a reason why Larrin's own father and Shawn of triplebhandmade (who helped Larrin test and develop the steel) both run MagnaCut very hard. Shawn runs it as hard as 65.5 HRC. Especially for thin geometry knives, which is what we are talking about, edge stability is paramount. Raw shock resistance is of less importance to overall resistance to chipping and rolling and being able to support a thin geometry's microstructure without deflections.


----------



## Mlan

Transparent Knives said:


> I'm not concerned about your business but I am always open (unlike some others) to constructive criticism about both my knives and conduct. Please let me know what issues you had with how I have approached things, as with the exception of one statement "Since I can tell now that you struggle with understanding how to interpret data, this functionally means “he doesn’t know what he’s talking about” I feel I have been fairly polite and civil. That one statement by the way, is a direct response to the comment using the exact same wording to insult me. I think it's fair to use someone's own syntax to reply to them when they act rudely.


Wait what? You literally bashed Xerxes because you said a maker should act better towards a customer than vice versa. But now you are justifying equal treatment? That doesn’t make sense


----------



## BrianKim309

M1k3 said:


> Dafuq? This is still going on???
> 
> *Clears throat*
> 
> Am I the only one that hears what the guy that came up with MagnaCut, which he just so happens to have a PhD in this **** AND has a well regarded knife maker as his Dad, says about "ideal" HRC for the steel?


His father and the knifemaker (Shawn of triplebhandmade) who helped him test and develop the steel both run it at very high hardness for their thin geometry knives, but that fact gets conveniently ignored very often.


----------



## jedy617

DrEriksson said:


> I think there are two issues here which have been seriously ignored.
> 
> First is that @jedy617 came off as seriously rude. It seems as if everyone bar Jedy agrees that he came off as rude.
> 
> The second is that the criticism to Xerxes (not tagging, have a feeling he’s not interested) stated that Xerxes was factually in the wrong. When it comes to this point there are two camps. One is Thomas and Xerxes, the other is @Transparent Knives supportee buy another guy on YouTube (sorry for not tagging, not sure if he wanna be dragged into this). So far the argument from the latter camp seems prove that there is reason to further investigate the merits of high HRC Magnacut. However, I’ve not seen good evidence to support the claim that Xerxes is incorrect in his choice. I don’t think the cardboard test on the YouTube channel have been proven valid, reliable, or generalizable to Xerxes’ knives.
> 
> It also bugs me that this could’ve been solved with: “Sorry. I didn’t mean to dismiss what you do. If you wanna look into some cool info about Magnacut in EDC knives, hit me up.”


Seriously rude? I said awesome knife but make it harder. If you think that's rude man I don't know what to tell you. Like I mentioned earlier I was also praising Xerxes work him his dms and said I didn't mean any offense and would love to own a knife from him someday. I think everyone skips that part.


----------



## BrianKim309

Mlan said:


> Wait what? You literally bashed Xerxes because you said a maker should act better towards a customer than vice versa. But now you are justifying equal treatment? That doesn’t make sense


I'm not certain what you mean by justifying equal treatment. I am treating an individual who is essentially calling me too stupid to "understand nuance" while ignoring every point I make with more respect than I otherwise would have just because we're talking about knives. I have given his arguments serious consideration and replied to each individually, despite my own reservations about whether or not he's actually making them in good faith. I certainly haven't tried to flex irrelevant facts like "I'm a knifemaker and I've made more stuff than you" as reasons why I'm correct, but rather explained in detail how CATRA and Charpy impact test results should be interpreted, how edge stability contributes to this, and how different heat treatments/hardnesses have held up in edge stability testing.


----------



## blokey

This has gone on long enough, you will all get 3cr13 blades and you will like it.


----------



## M1k3

Transparent Knives said:


> His father and the knifemaker (Shawn of triplebhandmade) who helped him test and develop the steel both run it at very high hardness for their thin geometry knives, but that fact gets conveniently ignored very often.


So continue doubling down instead of like, you know, having some chill? And listening to Larrin?


----------



## DrEriksson

Transparent Knives said:


> It hasn't been completely ignored, as I did mention earlier that civility is a two-way street. Both sides should have been more respectful, particularly Xerxes. As I stated previously, as makers our goal should be not only to make the best product we can but also to encourage others to actively share our passion and question/challenge us so that we can improve. The simple comment "Awesome but needs higher hrc" should not be cause for going on the defensive. I've gotten several such comments in the past and never had an issue. "Cool but can you do X, Y or Z". I simply consider if X, Y or Z is something I want to do or look more into. I would certainly never call a potential customer's concerns or suggestions "nonsense."
> 
> As for cardboard cut testing's reliability or validity, there's no way to "prove" that but needless to say Outpost76 records his cutting and goes into depth on the variables he addresses. This is just one factor among many, the other being that aside from edge retention, edge stability is also a major concern. There is a reason why Larrin's own father and Shawn of triplebhandmade (who helped Larrin test and develop the steel) both run MagnaCut very hard. Shawn runs it as hard as 65.5 HRC. Especially for thin geometry knives, which is what we are talking about, edge stability is paramount. Raw shock resistance is of less importance to overall resistance to chipping and rolling and being able to support a thin geometry's microstructure without deflections.


We’re not solving the rude issue. It’s fine. I don’t think makers have an obligation to behave in any special way either. But we all vote with our wallets, and I have a feeling we know how Jedy will vote. Which is as it should be. Regardless who’s right or wrong we can look at the effects. Right or wrong, I think Xerxes is the one who will loose the least on this. Perhaps it’s worth it to prove a point, perhaps it’s not? It’s not up to me to decide. I hope I didn’t misrepresent this part. I’ll leave it.

For the second point. My point still stands. Given what I’ve seen there is sufficient evidence to warrant further investigation into the merits of higher HRC on MC kitchen knives. There is not sufficient evidence to say that Xerxes is incorrect. This is based on watching both your instagram video and Outdoor’s video. It is still possible that Xerxes is incorrect, but I see no strong support for such a statement. I can go further into the logic behind this and why I’m not convinced by your statement that Xerxes is incorrect, should you wish.


----------



## jedy617

M1k3 said:


> So continue doubling down instead of like, you know, having some chill? And listening to Larrin?


Listen to Larrin? You really don't know @Transparent Knives almost every heat treat he does is based off larrins advice


----------



## BrianKim309

M1k3 said:


> So continue doubling down instead of like, you know, having some chill? And listening to Larrin?


I'm not sure what you mean, the two knifemakers that Larrin has worked with (his father and Shawn) both run MagnaCut at high hardnesses. Are you suggesting they are deliberately not "listening to Larrin"?


----------



## BrianKim309

DrEriksson said:


> We’re not solving the rude issue. It’s fine. I don’t think makers have an obligation to behave in any special way either. But we all vote with our wallets, and I have a feeling we know how Jedy will vote. Which is as it should be. Regardless who’s right or wrong we can look at the effects. Right or wrong, I think Xerxes is the one who will loose the least on this. Perhaps it’s worth it to prove a point, perhaps it’s not? It’s not up to me to decide. I hope I didn’t misrepresent this part. I’ll leave it.
> 
> For the second point. My point still stands. Given what I’ve seen there is sufficient evidence to warrant further investigation into the merits of higher HRC on MC kitchen knives. There is not sufficient evidence to say that Xerxes is incorrect. This is based on watching both your instagram video and Outdoor’s video. It is still possible that Xerxes is incorrect, but I see no strong support for such a statement. I can go further into the logic behind this and why I’m not convinced by your statement that Xerxes is incorrect, should you wish.


Of course I'd love to hear your insight. I may or may not agree with it, but hearing things out is the point of a conversation anyway.


----------



## jedy617

DrEriksson said:


> We’re not solving the rude issue. It’s fine. I don’t think makers have an obligation to behave in any special way either. But we all vote with our wallets, and I have a feeling we know how Jedy will vote. Which is as it should be. Regardless who’s right or wrong we can look at the effects. Right or wrong, I think Xerxes is the one who will loose the least on this. Perhaps it’s worth it to prove a point, perhaps it’s not? It’s not up to me to decide. I hope I didn’t misrepresent this part. I’ll leave it.
> 
> For the second point. My point still stands. Given what I’ve seen there is sufficient evidence to warrant further investigation into the merits of higher HRC on MC kitchen knives. There is not sufficient evidence to say that Xerxes is incorrect. This is based on watching both your instagram video and Outdoor’s video. It is still possible that Xerxes is incorrect, but I see no strong support for such a statement. I can go further into the logic behind this and why I’m not convinced by your statement that Xerxes is incorrect, should you wish.


But seriously back to the rudeness part. If Ferrari posts their new supercar on Instagram and I say it's cool but should have more horsepower is that suddenly rude?

Maybe it's just a fundamental disconnect on views between myself and others on here, but that doesn't seem rude to me


----------



## DrEriksson

jedy617 said:


> Seriously rude? I said awesome knife but make it harder. If you think that's rude man I don't know what to tell you. Like I mentioned earlier I was also praising Xerxes work him his dms and said I didn't mean any offense and would love to own a knife from him someday. I think everyone skips that part.


I realize you did not intend to be rude. But read the room. If everyone except your friend interpreted you as rude, perhaps it’s possible that your message is interpreted in a way you did not intend?


----------



## Mlan

jedy617 said:


> But seriously back to the rudeness part. If Ferrari posts their new supercar on Instagram and I say it's cool but should have more horsepower is that suddenly rude?
> 
> Maybe it's just a fundamental disconnect on views between myself and others on here, but that doesn't seem rude to me


That answer is yes, very rude. And I think pretty much everyone here can see it except you.


----------



## jedy617

DrEriksson said:


> I realize you did not intend to be rude. But read the room. If everyone except your friend interpreted you as rude, perhaps it’s possible that your message is interpreted in a way you did not intend?


This was addressed earlier, and to people who politely said maybe you could have worded it better on Instagram, I responded on here saying "totally you're right". So rudeness part is out of the way, even though people want to harp on about it and keep bashing.


----------



## jedy617

Mlan said:


> That answer is yes, very rude. And I think pretty much everyone here can see it except you.


Sorry bub, a compliment and a suggestion to improve a product ain't rude. And that's just facts.

Sorry I'm out here pushing P and Xerxes won't even push HRC.


----------



## superworrier

DrEriksson said:


> I realize you did not intend to be rude. But read the room. If everyone except your friend interpreted you as rude, perhaps it’s possible that your message is interpreted in a way you did not intend?


When you shoot an arrow and it misses the target, you don’t blame the target.


----------



## Hockey3081

Transparent Knives said:


> I'm not concerned about your business but I I think it's fair to use someone's own syntax to reply to them when they act rudely.



So with this logic, you agree that Jannis was within his right to perceive your boy as being rude and thusly dismissing him?


----------



## superworrier

Delivery aside, it does sound like equating edge retention to CATRA and comparing it to toughness is flawed. It doesn't necessarily mean that going for more toughness is wrong. There is value in having a bulletproof knife.

Re: the restaurant example. I'm curious if this example further proves the cardboard point. It's hard to say, but it sounds like because of hitting a cutting board, the main mode of dulling for kitchen knives should be deformation and not wear, which would make the CATRA test less representative, and make HRC more important. But of course, it's speculation.


----------



## jedy617

Hockey3081 said:


> So with this logic, you agree that Jannis was within his right to perceive your boy as being rude and thusly dismissing him?


Again, Brian already addressed this. Complementing his gyuto which I did, while also giving a suggestion is not the same as the way I was treated.

This is a great time for a history lesson. Someone named Ferrucio Lamborghini was just a tractor maker. He saved up enough money to finally buy a Ferrari. After he did and found an area it could be improved on, he brought the car to enzo Ferrari and said this should be better. Enzo was rude and said he was just a tractor farmer and didn't know what he was talking about. (How could a user know better than the maker right?)

Then Ferrucio went back, and made his own car, and thus the legend of Lamborghini was born.

Just food for thought


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

opening this thread be like







anyway too many chromosomes in this conversation calm down


----------



## superworrier

jedy617 said:


> Again, Brian already addressed this. Complementing his gyuto which I did, while also giving a suggestion is not the same as the way I was treated.
> 
> This is a great time for a history lesson. Some Ferrucio Lamborghini was just a tractor maker. He saved up enough money to finally buy a Ferrari. After he did and found an area it could be improved on, he brought the car to enzo Ferrari and said this should be better. Enzo was rude and said he was just a tractor farmer and didn't know what he was talking about. (How could a user know better than the maker right?)
> 
> Then Ferrucio went back, and made his own car, and this the legend of Lamborghini was born.
> 
> Just food for thought


I think "needs to be harder" is a bit more forceful than a suggestion. Something like "I would love to see this run harder" is a suggestion.


----------



## jedy617

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> View attachment 202235
> 
> opening this thread be like


Never change man. Also I think you and @Transparent Knives would get along. He is also weeb man


----------



## jedy617

superworrier said:


> I think "needs to be harder" is a bit more forceful than a suggestion. Something like "I would love to see this run harder" is a suggestion.


Yeah you're right, like I mentioned earlier to multiple people, delivery could have been better. Still have no regrats tho


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

superworrier said:


> I think "needs to be harder" is a bit more forceful than a suggestion. Something like "I would love to see this run harder" is a suggestion.


nice thank you for the advice I'll try putting it this way with my girlfriend next time


----------



## superworrier

The whole CATRA inaccuracy is why I think chasing numbers is bad. Measurements don't translate to real world performance. Same could be true for cardboard, but it does seem like it would probably trend the other way because cardboard is more abrasive than food and indeed make much more edge retention here. Then again, if you need toughness, you need toughness


----------



## captaincaed

M1k3 said:


> Dafuq? This is still going on???
> 
> *Clears throat*
> 
> Am I the only one that hears what the guy that came up with MagnaCut, which he just so happens to have a PhD in this **** AND has a well regarded knife maker as his Dad, says about "ideal" HRC for the steel?


----------



## Hockey3081

jedy617 said:


> Again, Brian already addressed this. Complementing his gyuto which I did, while also giving a suggestion is not the same as the way I was treated.
> 
> This is a great time for a history lesson. Someone named Ferrucio Lamborghini was just a tractor maker. He saved up enough money to finally buy a Ferrari. After he did and found an area it could be improved on, he brought the car to enzo Ferrari and said this should be better. Enzo was rude and said he was just a tractor farmer and didn't know what he was talking about. (How could a user know better than the maker right?)
> 
> Then Ferrucio went back, and made his own car, and this the legend of Lamborghini was born.
> 
> Just food for thought



So if someone says to a gal “you have a pretty face, but you could lose a couple pounds. That would make your body OPTIMAL.”, then she shouldn’t be insulted because said dipsht opened with a compliment?


----------



## BillHanna

I’ll try that on the chief nurse in the children’s hospital, Monday afternoon. I’d like to get the full day in.


----------



## BrianKim309

Hockey3081 said:


> So if someone says to a gal “you have a pretty face, but you could lose a couple pounds. They would make your body OPTIMAL.”, then she shouldn’t be insulted because said dipsht opened with a compliment?


I understand your point but I think there's a difference between someone's body versus a product they make for sale and critique. A big one at that, in terms of whether or not you can speak on it. Xerxes is a knifemaker who sells a product for money. His post literally asks "Whats do you think". Slightly different than just going up to a girl and talking about an intimate part of her body randomly.


----------



## jedy617

captaincaed said:


> View attachment 202239


Do you know what Larrins dad runs magnacut at? 65 LOL. That's part of why it is so funny.


----------



## jedy617

Hockey3081 said:


> So if someone says to a gal “you have a pretty face, but you could lose a couple pounds. That would make your body OPTIMAL.”, then she shouldn’t be insulted because said dipsht opened with a compliment?


The false equivalencies....hngggggg


----------



## superworrier

I think the real fact of the matter is your delivery has
1) pissed people off
2) as a result of 1, made people less likely to receive the actual argument
3) as a result of 1 and 2, probably made you less well off as well
despite this, you continue to double down. But I'm beating a dead horse here


----------



## Hockey3081

Transparent Knives said:


> I understand your point but I think there's a difference between someone's body versus a product they make for sale and critique. A big one at that, in terms of whether or not you can speak on it. Xerxes is a knifemaker who sells a product for money. His post literally asks "Whats do you think". Slightly different than just going up to a girl and talking about an intimate part of her body randomly.



_Girl posts OnlyFans thirst trap on the gram and asks “what do you think”_

Incel: “You have a pretty face, but you could lose a couple pounds. That would make your body OPTIMAL. I would know because I used to be chunky.”

*Better?*


----------



## jedy617

So we are still equating buying knives to women? Man I detect some incel behavior and it aint from me


----------



## BillHanna

Tell her I said hi, and I’m not afraid to break a sweat


----------



## DrEriksson

Transparent Knives said:


> Of course I'd love to hear your insight. I may or may not agree with it, but hearing things out is the point of a conversation anyway.


This might be a bit longer than I prefer. To preface. I’m teaching methodology on all levels at university, but I’m not specialized in statistical analysis nor material science, so I will write this with caution. I want to start with saying that I find tests such as the one done by Outdoor valuable, and that they can merit further investigation into what he finds out. At face value, I also trust them to be trustworthy. However, I don’t think those tests are capable of proving that Xerxes is incorrect. I’ll outline why.

*Validity*
It’s not been established that Outdoor’s tests are representative of chefknives, and it’s not established that all chefknives are equal. In any experiment it is important to establish that random variation is reduced, and that controllable variables are accounted for. Factors that can introduce random variation include the tester, time of day, and humidity. Controllable variables include blade profile, blade geometry, cutting media properties. One important issue in many freehand tests is the evaluation of when the knife is dull. Another issue is to ensure that sharpening is standardized and producing a similar edge every time.

Once controllable variables are accounted for and controlled it is necessary to set up a statistical test. The statistical test makes it possible to determine if measured differences between different HRC are within or outside of random variation, at a desired level of confidence. These tests should be randomized, and it is important that both the tester and the data analysist are blinded, so as to not introduce bias (see tests with homeopathic medicine to see the improtance of triple-blinded tests). 

*Reliability*
It is important to prove that the results can be replicated by an independent party. This is done by establishing a research protocol, but also by allowing someone to replicate solely based on data. 

*Generalizable*
This is a bit of a misuse of the word, because statistical generalizability is one thing, but here I’m more mentioning it in the qualitative sense and how well the results can be moved to a different context (which is really a validity issue in qualitative research, forgive me for being a bit crude in my use of terms). Here, the different context is kitchen knives. It needs to be established that the test is not only valid and reliable, but also that it is representative of kitchen knives. This needs to be done by the one designing the test, otherwise they can’t use the test for these claims.

If it can be established that findings are generalizable to kitchen knives it also needs to be established that they are generalizable to Xerxes’ knives. This is even more difficult because it requires access to his knives, not only for one single comparison, but multiple knives which are put through the same type of testing as described above. To complicate it even further. It needs to be established that the test is generalizable to how Xerxes’ knives are being used in real life. I honestly have no clue how this can be done. However, this is not a shortcoming on my part. This is, once again, something that the one making the claim has to overcome. (Want to add that this has not even touched on how to measure what is good for a kitchen knife. Is it how long the edge lasts? Ease of use? Risk of damage? I’ve just assumed, for simplicity, that edge retention is what’s important.)

*Summing up*
All this might seem to be a very high standard to meet. But this is the way of science. The one making the claim is the one who has adopted the burden of proof. This is why a careful language should be used. For example. “There is reason to believe that higher HRC are good for MC.“ “It seems as if higher HRC should be desired also in MC kitchen knives.” “It’s possible that Xerxes’ MC knives will have longer lasting edges with higher HRC.”

This is perhaps a good insight into why researchers are so careful with their statements? But I think this language and this level of caution needs to be used, at least when experiments, tests, and data are used in the argument. Just as it is easy to get upset by people misunderstanding/-interpreting data and statistics, as a researcher I get a bit frustrated when bold claims are made using a bad understanding of how research is actually carried out.

What I’m saying is to be a bit careful with claims. And sorry for taking you on a 2 am (my time) detour into research methodology class.


----------



## M1k3

Transparent Knives said:


> I'm not sure what you mean, the two knifemakers that Larrin has worked with (his father and Shawn) both run MagnaCut at high hardnesses. Are you suggesting they are deliberately not "listening to Larrin"?


What? Larrin gave a range. You can hear him say the words in his video on it. What are you not getting? That there's a range instead of a specific number that's THE one and only hardness ALL knife makers must use? 

Go rewatch Larrin's video over and over until it clicks.


----------



## DrEriksson

superworrier said:


> When you shoot an arrow and it misses the target, you don’t blame the target.


You draw a target around the arrow…


----------



## jedy617

superworrier said:


> I think the real fact of the matter is your delivery has
> 1) pissed people off
> 2) as a result of 1, made people less likely to receive the actual argument
> 3) as a result of 1 and 2, probably made you less well off as well
> despite this, you continue to double down. But I'm beating a dead horse here


I just don't care anymore. I have the facts to back it up so I will quadruple down.


M1k3 said:


> What? Larrin gave a range. You can hear him say the words in his video on it. What are you not getting? That there's a range instead of a specific number that's THE one and only hardness ALL knife makers must use?
> 
> Go rewatch Larrin's video over and over until it clicks.



Pretty funny your profile pictures AKSHULLY match up with your persona when you are arguing with the man who made more magnacut knives than anyone. All I'm doing is telling makers what hardness I want as a consumer.

8000 posts in a little bit longer than I have been on here. I think you spend too much time posting on here. Maybe take a walk and spend less time on the net, it's not good for your health


----------



## superworrier

M1k3 said:


> What? Larrin gave a range. You can hear him say the words in his video on it. What are you not getting? That there's a range instead of a specific number that's THE one and only hardness ALL knife makers must use?
> 
> Go rewatch Larrin's video over and over until it clicks.



TBF, Larrin does kinda mention that makers shouldn't be afraid to run it hard. Ranges are conservative and meant to be "consumer friendly", just like how I can order well done steak at a restaurant despite it probably not being a good choice. Regardless, I think nearly everyone can agree that saying 62 MagnaCut is "wrong" is silly.


----------



## superworrier

On a similar topic, I don't think ordering well done steaks is even necessarily wrong. It's probably wrong for most people (as they might just be afraid of red) but there are plenty of good reasons why maybe some people would like it more (like health conditions, or maybe they're just hard wired to like it more somehow?) which just shows the pitfalls of trying to claim an objective truth.


----------



## jedy617

superworrier said:


> TBF, Larrin does kinda mention that makers shouldn't be afraid to run it hard. Ranges are conservative and meant to be "consumer friendly", just like how I can order well done steak at a restaurant despite it probably not being a good choice. Regardless, I think nearly everyone can agree that saying 62 MagnaCut is "wrong" is silly.


Wrong for me, in an expensive custom knife, and I think for anyone who is spending $1500+ on something like that (although I admit that my judgement there is based on assumption of what people want, which is to make full use of a material in an expensive product). I don't think it is wrong for spyderco at a high production level to be doing it at 62 because of production constraints (even though they are very particular about heat treat and they would also go higher).

People see high number and think chippy and get scared.


----------



## superworrier

And I'd still take the olive wagyu prepared slightly more done to my liking by a master chef rather than microwaved to a perfect medium rare


----------



## jedy617

superworrier said:


> On a similar topic, I don't think ordering well done steaks is even necessarily wrong. It's probably wrong for most people (as they might just be afraid of red) but there are plenty of good reasons why maybe some people would like it more (like health conditions, or maybe they're just hard wired to like it more somehow?) which just shows the pitfalls of trying to claim an objective truth.


If it's prime/wagyu, etc I think it's wrong unless its for a health reason, yes. I hear there are stories about chefs who will not cook nice steaks like that past medium. My hero's!

I like my olive wagyu on the medium side of medium rare no matter who prepares it. Not too hard for anyone to cook with it anyway. Into a pan, some salt and pepper, get the temp right and you are good to go


----------



## superworrier

jedy617 said:


> If it's prime/wagyu, etc I think it's wrong unless its for a health reason, yes. I hear there are stories about chefs who will not cook nice steaks like that past medium. My hero's!


I think the problem is this assumes you know all available info. There was a probably a point where people would shame people for not liking cilantro, but now we know it just tastes bad to some people, because of genetics. Another example is maybe someone got sick from medium rare steak and now they just have a bad mental association. I think this is different though than just be unwilling to try it. I definitely didn't like oysters and uni the first time I had them, but now they're some of my favorites. Same with my uncle: refused to eat cheese and medium rare beef. After he tried it, he absolutely loved it.


----------



## BrianKim309

DrEriksson said:


> This might be a bit longer than I prefer. To preface. I’m teaching methodology on all levels at university, but I’m not specialized in statistical analysis nor material science, so I will write this with caution. I want to start with saying that I find tests such as the one done by Outdoor valuable, and that they can merit further investigation into what he finds out. At face value, I also trust them to be trustworthy. However, I don’t think those tests are capable of proving that Xerxes is incorrect. I’ll outline why.
> 
> *Validity*
> It’s not been established that Outdoor’s tests are representative of chefknives, and it’s not established that all chefknives are equal. In any experiment it is important to establish that random variation is reduced, and that controllable variables are accounted for. Factors that can introduce random variation include the tester, time of day, and humidity. Controllable variables include blade profile, blade geometry, cutting media properties. One important issue in many freehand tests is the evaluation of when the knife is dull. Another issue is to ensure that sharpening is standardized and producing a similar edge every time.
> 
> Once controllable variables are accounted for and controlled it is necessary to set up a statistical test. The statistical test makes it possible to determine if measured differences between different HRC are within or outside of random variation, at a desired level of confidence. These tests should be randomized, and it is important that both the tester and the data analysist are blinded, so as to not introduce bias (see tests with homeopathic medicine to see the improtance of triple-blinded tests).
> 
> *Reliability*
> It is important to prove that the results can be replicated by an independent party. This is done by establishing a research protocol, but also by allowing someone to replicate solely based on data.
> 
> *Generalizable*
> This is a bit of a misuse of the word, because statistical generalizability is one thing, but here I’m more mentioning it in the qualitative sense and how well the results can be moved to a different context (which is really a validity issue in qualitative research, forgive me for being a bit crude in my use of terms). Here, the different context is kitchen knives. It needs to be established that the test is not only valid and reliable, but also that it is representative of kitchen knives. This needs to be done by the one designing the test, otherwise they can’t use the test for these claims.
> 
> If it can be established that findings are generalizable to kitchen knives it also needs to be established that they are generalizable to Xerxes’ knives. This is even more difficult because it requires access to his knives, not only for one single comparison, but multiple knives which are put through the same type of testing as described above. To complicate it even further. It needs to be established that the test is generalizable to how Xerxes’ knives are being used in real life. I honestly have no clue how this can be done. However, this is not a shortcoming on my part. This is, once again, something that the one making the claim has to overcome. (Want to add that this has not even touched on how to measure what is good for a kitchen knife. Is it how long the edge lasts? Ease of use? Risk of damage? I’ve just assumed, for simplicity, that edge retention is what’s important.)
> 
> *Summing up*
> All this might seem to be a very high standard to meet. But this is the way of science. The one making the claim is the one who has adopted the burden of proof. This is why a careful language should be used. For example. “There is reason to believe that higher HRC are good for MC.“ “It seems as if higher HRC should be desired also in MC kitchen knives.” “It’s possible that Xerxes’ MC knives will have longer lasting edges with higher HRC.”
> 
> This is perhaps a good insight into why researchers are so careful with their statements? But I think this language and this level of caution needs to be used, at least when experiments, tests, and data are used in the argument. Just as it is easy to get upset by people misunderstanding/-interpreting data and statistics, as a researcher I get a bit frustrated when bold claims are made using a bad understanding of how research is actually carried out.
> 
> What I’m saying is to be a bit careful with claims. And sorry for taking you on a 2 am (my time) detour into research methodology class.


I'm sort of a long-form writer as well so no complaints from me. I don't disagree with your breakdown per se. I personally feel that there are always ways to improve the reliability, validity, and generalizability of your testing and its results. Outpost76 does a pretty good job all things considered, given that he standardizes edge angle, edge finish, cardboard used, section of the edge cut (1 inch sections), etc. In this case we had TomHosangOutdoors perform the same testing and he had similar results, But further verification is never to be discouraged, and I would encourage anyone to try to perform the same tests and report their results. The question is, did Xerxes do any of this sort of rigorous scientific testing you refer to? Based on his post he went strictly off of CATRA test results, which by the way have some of the exact same variables (quality of the edge prior to testing, etc.). Those familiar with the history of CATRA will remember when samples were community funded and sent in for testing, only for us to find that they had tested the samples with burrs left on the edges. The more important point to note however, is that as someone who specializes in methodology I'm sure you would agree that entirely different methods that produce results in different scientific units cannot be directly compared. As well as that different methods can produce different scale increments in results. 6% gain in TCC in CATRA testing is NOT the same, scientifically, as 6% increase in edge retention or wear resistance. It's only one method of measuring wear resistance, so taking this 6% number then comparing it to Charpy test results is inaccurate. At bare minimum, Xerxes' method of taking existing data and comparing it to each other without accounting for differences in how these numbers were produced requires correction.


----------



## ian

French people: whenever I go to France my dinner companions always pressure me into ordering my steaks saignant. But then it just comes too chewy with all this unrendered fat, and often with a subpar sear. How do I acquire the strength to order steaks medium in France, despite social pressure?


----------



## superworrier

ian said:


> French people: whenever I go to France my dinner companions always pressure me into ordering my steaks saignant. But then it just comes too chewy with all this unrendered fat, and often with a subpar sear. How do I acquire the strength to order steaks medium in France, despite social pressure?
> 
> (To me, saignant is more like rare than medium rare by US standards.)


I think there is a bit of a medium rare circle jerk. Some cuts definitely do benefit with being more done (those with more connective tissues and fat) and yes always a trade-off with the sear. Bad attitude id say! This is why Italian coffee kinda sucks now.


----------



## jedy617

superworrier said:


> I think there is a bit of a medium rare circle jerk. Some cuts definitely do benefit with being more done (those with more connective tissues and fat) and yes always a trade-off with the sear. Bad attitude id say! This is why Italian coffee kinda sucks now.


It is really funny now Italians make some of the best espresso scene, but in the third wave world of coffee, they are usually towards the bottom. Gotta go to Australia for the good stuff.

For ribeye I like about 132-133 sous vide, sometimes 135. Wouldn't do the same with a filet.


----------



## Michi

ian said:


> French people: whenever I go to France my dinner companions always pressure me into ordering my steaks saignant. But then it just comes too chewy with all this unrendered fat, and often with a subpar sear. How do I acquire the strength to order steaks medium in France, despite social pressure?


You need to ask for better heat treat, so the hardness moves into the one and only range.


----------



## ian

superworrier said:


> I think there is a bit of a medium rare circle jerk. Some cuts definitely do benefit with being more done (those with more connective tissues and fat) and yes always a trade-off with the sear. Bad attitude id say! This is why Italian coffee kinda sucks now.



Absolutely! I think saignant is like “rare”, even. 

But yea, there’s some sort of testosterone filled culture that hypes up bloody meat, even if it tastes worse that way.


----------



## jedy617

Michi said:


> You need to ask for better heat treat, so the hardness moves into the one and only range.


Exactly, a range is fine. Just don't give me anything medium well or cooked more and we are good!


----------



## jedy617

This is me at a restaurant with friends by the way:


----------



## ian

Vomit emoji.


----------



## jedy617

ian said:


> Vomit emoji.


Ok that I will not stand. Always sunny is amazing.


----------



## M1k3

ian said:


> French people: whenever I go to France my dinner companions always pressure me into ordering my steaks saignant. But then it just comes too chewy with all this unrendered fat, and often with a subpar sear. How do I acquire the strength to order steaks medium in France, despite social pressure?


Tell them how to cook a steak. Make sure to stand your ground and argue. Doubling down strongly encouraged. Just ignore everyone around that you is trying to tell you to stop being so argumentive and rude. You've had many steaks, so you obviously know what's best.


----------



## jedy617

Man the fixation is real, gonna reach 10k posts before the new year?


----------



## Mlan

Coming from the person who’s posted more on this thread than anyone else


----------



## Mariner

jedy617 said:


> Again, Brian already addressed this. Complementing his gyuto which I did, while also giving a suggestion is not the same as the way I was treated.
> 
> This is a great time for a history lesson. Someone named Ferrucio Lamborghini was just a tractor maker. He saved up enough money to finally buy a Ferrari. After he did and found an area it could be improved on, he brought the car to enzo Ferrari and said this should be better. Enzo was rude and said he was just a tractor farmer and didn't know what he was talking about. (How could a user know better than the maker right?)
> 
> Then Ferrucio went back, and made his own car, and thus the legend of Lamborghini was born.
> 
> Just food for thought



Please let me know when you get done becoming the next Lamborghini.

I can wrap your car around a pole and finally find sweet release from this thread.


----------



## jedy617

Mlan said:


> Coming from the person who’s posted more on this thread than anyone else


Gotta defend my honor mang, will be posting every single time someone keeps the topic up. There is an easy way to defeat me...


----------



## jedy617

Mariner said:


> Please let me know when you get done becoming the next Lamborghini.
> 
> I can wrap your car around a pole and finally find sweet release from this thread.


I won't have to say anything...you'll know . Also bro don't hurt yourself. Why not at least say you would pour gasoline inside and throw a match at it or something. Not sure if the concussion is worth it to forget the thread, there are better ways!


----------



## slickmamba

Guys can we change the topic? Except I need to get the last word in. *4 whole pages later.* I’m so proud of my growth as a person.


----------



## stringer

jedy617 said:


> Gotta defend my honor mang, will be posting every single time someone keeps the topic up. There is an easy way to defeat me...


----------



## jedy617

slickmamba said:


> Guys can we change the topic? Except I need to get the last word in. *4 whole pages later.* I’m so proud of my growth as a person.


Hey; I woke up this morning, came to the thread, and said everyone take care of your mental health! And posted a picture of me sanding my gyuto for a project, but people still kept bringing the subject up


----------



## stringer

jedy617 said:


> Hey; I woke up this morning, came to the thread, and said everyone take care of your mental health! And posted a picture of me sanding my gyuto for a project, but people still kept bringing the subject up




Why would you post a sanding project in the drama thread?


----------



## jedy617

stringer said:


> Why would you post a sanding project in the drama thread?


Because I'm an idiot and thought it would be something to lighten the mood and try and change the subject.


----------



## stringer

jedy617 said:


> Because I'm an idiot and thought it would be something to lighten the mood and try and change the subject.


How many times have you hit report in this thread? Just a guess. Now be honest Karen.


----------



## jedy617

stringer said:


> How many times have you hit report in this thread? Just a guess. Now be honest Karen.


Only once, for the guy that called me an insufferable twat. And not again for the second time.


----------



## M1k3




----------



## Barclid

jedy617 said:


> Only once, for the guy that called me an insufferable twat. And not again for the second time.


Well we already established precedent on that point.


----------



## jedy617

Barclid said:


> Well we already established precedent on that point.


Nice one


----------



## TRPV4

jedy617 said:


> Gotta defend my honor mang, will be posting every single time someone keeps the topic up. There is an easy way to defeat me...




I can understand that. The easiest way to do so would be to post the DM log. That way everyone can stop speculating on who was rude first or whatever. Don’t think it’s about metallurgy and material science at this point. Post the DMs, clear your name


----------



## Barclid

jedy617 said:


> Nice one


Thanks.

You know what I think might help all this? An unredacted chat log of the DMs between you and Jannis. End the he-said-she-said.


----------



## M1k3

BBBOOOOOOOO!!! Llllliiiiaaarrrrr!!!!!! BBBOOOOOOOO!!!!


----------



## brotondo

How do I turn off notifications? I think they might be broken? I keep getting emails that say Jedy replied to a thread and I’m like I know I know what else is new.


----------



## jedy617

TRPV4 said:


> I can understand that. The easiest way to do so would be to post the DM log. That way everyone can stop speculating on who was rude first or whatever. Don’t think it’s about metallurgy and material science at this point. Post the DMs, clear your name


Sure I'll post em


----------



## TRPV4

Cheers, then this whole thing can end


----------



## M1k3

brotondo said:


> How do I turn off notifications? I think they might be broken? I keep getting emails that say Jedy replied to a thread and I’m like I know I know what else is new.


----------



## M1k3

So back on topic...

Anyone miss JML? Sparten007? KilgoreTrout?


----------



## M1k3

jedy617 said:


> I really love the "I bought $14,000 of magnacut so I know what I'm doing" and the "sorry this is complete nonsense I quite here"
> 
> All I did was post knife steel nerds data from larrin, say I loved his knives, and he should run the steel harder.


Public speaking is not your forte.


----------



## Hockey3081

You said you ripped into him after he was dismissed that. How come you didn’t post that part to show the full convo?



jedy617 said:


> Thanks. I was angry after Jannis gave me the response of "I know more than you because I purchased more steel". For sure. I ripped into him. But yeah 62hrc is totally sub-optimal. I know I paint this certain picture of myself on this forum, but there is a reason I have been collecting knives for a long long time, and this has been (I believe?) my only "run in" or "fight" with a maker. But I am at a stage now where I am comfortable enough to not accept BS responses, and I felt like I got BS responses.


----------



## brotondo

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 202267


Careful now, he’s a hero


----------



## BillHanna

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 202267


Best game of madlibs ever


----------



## jedy617

Hockey3081 said:


> You said you ripped into him after he was dismissed that. How come you didn’t post that part to show the full convo?


I'm still allowed to be partly embarrassed even though I think I'm right. I said things like Lol, larrins dad runs it at 65 hrc, and you say knives made from maximum performance on your website but you run your magnacut at 62? That's hilarious!

Anything else you want to know?

Anyway your hero acted just like me when I presented reasonable data. You all told me I couldn't know what hardness I wanted as a user. But just because you own these knives you can't have a preference. Well just because you bought lots of steel doesn't make you an expert with it. Just because I own an omega doesn't make me a watchmaker


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## Barclid

jedy617 said:


> I really love the "I bought $14,000 of magnacut so I know what I'm doing" and the "sorry this is complete nonsense I quite here"
> 
> All I did was post knife steel nerds data from larrin, say I loved his knives, and he should run the steel harder.


So you ignored the part where he said he bounced ideas off of Larrin and did independent testing. But you were soooo offended that he didn't want to entertain a conversation with you. This whole objective truth complex that you have on the hardness for MagnaCut and your general approach to interacting with people is what puts people off. Not the content itself.


----------



## TRPV4

jedy617 said:


> I really love the "I bought $14,000 of magnacut so I know what I'm doing" and the "sorry this is complete nonsense I quite here"
> 
> All I did was post knife steel nerds data from larrin, say I loved his knives, and he should run the steel harder.




It’s hard to see who incited it from these heavily redacted screenshots. Full convo?


----------



## jedy617

Barclid said:


> So you ignored the part where he said he bounced ideas off of Larrin and did independent testing. But you were soooo offended that he didn't want to entertain a conversation with you. This whole objective truth complex that you have on the hardness for MagnaCut and your general approach to interacting with people is what puts people off. Not the content itself.


Crazy that all I did was say hey, here is why you could run magnacut harder and he opens with the ego play. I also talk to Larrin and do testing. Who cares.


----------



## jedy617

TRPV4 said:


> It’s hard to see who incited it from these heavily redacted screenshots. Full convo?


Redacted? Those are full man. Anyway that's all I have for you.


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## Barclid

jedy617 said:


> I'm still allowed to be partly embarrassed even though I think I'm right. I said things like Lol, larrins dad runs it at 65 hrc, and you say knives made from maximum performance on your website but you run your magnacut at 62? That's hilarious!
> 
> Anything else you want to know?
> 
> Anyway your hero acted just like me when I presented reasonable data. You all told me I couldn't know what hardness I wanted as a user. But just because you own these knives you can't have a preference. Well just because you bought lots of steel doesn't make you an expert with it. Just because I own an omega doesn't make me a watchmaker


We just want to see it all verbatim.


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## Hockey3081

jedy617 said:


> I'm still allowed to be partly embarrassed even though I think I'm right. I said things like Lol, larrins dad runs it at 65 hrc, and you say knives made from maximum performance on your website but you run your magnacut at 62? That's hilarious!
> 
> Anything else you want to know?



Someone asked you to post the full DM log to remove the he said she said and who was rude and you said sure I’ll post them. You don’t have to, but at this point you’re just obfuscating if you have been saying you stand by what you said but won’t show it.


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## Michi




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## brotondo

Hockey3081 said:


> You said you ripped into him after he was dismissed that. How come you didn’t post that part to show the full convo?


Gonna take a congressional subpoena to get the unredacted transcripts. It’s ok even with this you can smell the insufferable ass stench coming through.


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## M1k3

brotondo said:


> Careful now, he’s a hero








jedy617 said:


> Crazy that all I did was say hey, here is why you could run magnacut harder and he opens with the ego play. I also talk to Larrin and do testing. Who cares.


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## jedy617

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 202272
> 
> 
> View attachment 202273


The ignore button doesn't work does it? 

I can ackshually all I want man. I know magnacut is better when it's harder due to personal experience, and data that says so. So yeah I'm not going to put up with garbage saying otherwise.


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## Michi

Japanese Drama Inspired Recipes

That’s quite a good channel, worth taking a look.


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## HumbleHomeCook

jedy617 said:


> I really love the "I bought $14,000 of magnacut so I know what I'm doing" and the "sorry this is complete nonsense I quite here"
> 
> All I did was post knife steel nerds data from larrin, say I loved his knives, and he should run the steel harder.



Is that you Forest?


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## spaceconvoy

M1k3 said:


> So back on topic...
> 
> Anyone miss JML? Sparten007? KilgoreTrout?


I do miss JML, the early times when he was really clueless. Then he started saying sensible things and the magic was lost


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## jedy617

Is the trout guy the one who was selling a stolen honyaki or was that someone else? I remember a lobster in a profile pic


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## BillHanna

M1k3 said:


> So back on topic...
> 
> Anyone miss JML? Sparten007? KilgoreTrout?


ma_sha


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## Hockey3081

jedy617 said:


> Is the trout guy the one who was selling a stolen honyaki or was that someone else? I remember a lobster in a profile pic



OkLobster


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## BrianKim309

I would like to see the “testing” that Xerxes performed that lead to his conclusions. If they are properly conducted and he has actually tried 65 HRC MagnaCut, wet ground and properly sharpened, and found that it was suboptimal for his intended use case that would be valuable information.


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## captaincaed




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## jedy617

Hockey3081 said:


> OkLobster


Ah that makes sense I remember a lobster. Thank you.


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## Barclid

Transparent Knives said:


> I would like to see the “testing” that Xerxes performed that lead to his conclusions. If they are properly conducted and he has actually tried 65 HRC MagnaCut, wet ground and properly sharpened, and found that it was suboptimal for his intended use case that would be valuable information.


Why did you feel the need to put testing in quotation marks? You've already come to the conclusion that you're right here no matter what that you seem incapable of even entertaining the thought that he performed tests that led him to a different heat treatment choice than you did.


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## BrianKim309

Barclid said:


> Why did you feel the need to put testing in quotation marks? You've already come to the conclusion that you're right here no matter what that you seem incapable of even entertaining the thought that he performed tests that led him to a different heat treatment choice than you did.


I put testing in quotes because I have not yet seen it so I cannot simply assume it has been performed. I was not able to find any testing videos or results on his Instagram, though maybe I just missed it.


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## brotondo

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 202272
> 
> 
> View attachment 202273


Sorry sir it’s an old meme but I swear it checks out.


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## Barclid

Transparent Knives said:


> I put testing in quotes because I have not yet seen it so I cannot simply assume it has been performed. I was not able to find any testing videos or results on his Instagram, though maybe I just missed it.


Oh come off it, dude. Seriously. Saying that you would "like to see" it already gives that implication. It seems clear to me that you did so because you want to make it abundantly obvious that you don't respect Jannis or the decision making process he used to come to his preferred heat treatment.

And to be clear? I really don't care if that's what you think: go for it. But at least be honest, yeah?


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## HumbleHomeCook

Forest...???


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## BillHanna

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Forest...???


Trees. Just trees


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## BrianKim309

Barclid said:


> Oh come off it, dude. Seriously. Saying that you would "like to see" it already gives that implication. It seems clear to me that you did so because you want to make it abundantly obvious that you don't respect Jannis or the decision making process he used to come to his preferred heat treatment.
> 
> And to be clear? I really don't care if that's what you think: go for it. But at least be honest, yeah?


Unfortunately I don’t think it’ll be possible to have any productive conversation with you. You are rude, ignorant, and biased toward a maker you clearly respect greatly. I don’t assume people are right without even seeing their testing in any form, as you have elected to do. I’ll be ignoring you going forward.


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## spaceconvoy

Ok time to feed the troll. You have provided me with a solid hour of entertainment so you deserve a little something I guess.



jedy617 said:


> Seriously rude? I said awesome knife but make it harder. If you think that's rude man I don't know what to tell you. Like I mentioned earlier I was also praising Xerxes work him his dms and said I didn't mean any offense and would love to own a knife from him someday. I think everyone skips that part.





jedy617 said:


> But seriously back to the rudeness part. If Ferrari posts their new supercar on Instagram and I say it's cool but should have more horsepower is that suddenly rude?
> 
> Maybe it's just a fundamental disconnect on views between myself and others on here, but that doesn't seem rude to me





jedy617 said:


> Sorry bub, a compliment and a suggestion to improve a product ain't rude. And that's just facts.
> 
> Sorry I'm out here pushing P and Xerxes won't even push HRC.



Is this you:



jedy617 said:


> The guy is a tool and full of himself (not kamon) In DM's I was asking why he went for a certain hardness, being very polite and saying how much I loved his work.
> 
> What I got in response was "I know what I'm doing, I bought $14,000 of this steel". That's called hubris. No wonder his name is "Xerxes" lol.



When people tell you you're seriously rude, they're not talking about your self-described suck sessions with Xerxes via DM. Everyone here is thinking of this last comment above, and many others in this thread, when we call you rude. Why do you keep redirecting the argument to your behavior that no one has a problem with? 

That's a rhetorical question btw. Anyone who's still confused and looking for an answer should google "NPD tactics"


----------



## Barclid

Transparent Knives said:


> Unfortunately I don’t think it’ll be possible to have any productive conversation with you. You are rude, ignorant, and biased toward a maker you clearly respect greatly. I don’t assume people are right without even seeing their testing in any form, as you have elected to do. I’ll be ignoring you going forward.


Rude, I'll grant you. Yes. Because I don't like either your nor Jedy's approach to this whole situation. Ignorant? I'd disagree. I've never actually tried to really argue the counter to your points, rather I've played devil's advocate for someone who decided that something was more important to them than it is to you.

You want to know a really spicy secret? I actually agree with you: I would prefer the harder heat treatment, given the available data.

You know why I'm not on your side of the 'debate'? Because I find you both supremely unlikeable. I am too, though, so it's whatever. Let's all continue to be tribal and proscriptive.


----------



## jedy617

spaceconvoy said:


> Ok time to feed the troll. You have provided me with a solid hour of entertainment so you deserve a little something I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this you:
> 
> 
> 
> When people tell you you're seriously rude, they're not talking about your self-described suck sessions with Xerxes via DM. Everyone here is thinking of this last comment above, and many others in this thread, when we call you rude. Why do you keep redirecting the argument to your behavior that no one has a problem with?
> 
> That's a rhetorical question btw. Anyone who's still confused and looking for an answer should google "NPD tactics"


I can be rude when pushed to a point. And I got pushed to that point when I was treated like an idiot by a maker just because I didn't buy $14,000 of steel, and made fun of by people on here. I think that describes anyone. There are no "tactics" at play.


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## Justinv

I think there is a problem with the High Drama thread. There isn’t enough High. If you post more than 3 times a day can you take 2 hits of your preferred stuff before each subsequent post?


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## BrianKim309

Barclid said:


> Rude, I'll grant you. Yes. Because I don't like either your nor Jedy's approach to this whole situation. Ignorant? I'd disagree. I've never actually tried to really argue the counter to your points, rather I've played devil's advocate for someone who decided that something was more important to them than it is to you.
> 
> You want to know a really spicy secret? I actually agree with you: I would prefer the harder heat treatment, given the available data.
> 
> You know why I'm not on your side of the 'debate'? Because I find you both supremely unlikeable. I am too, though, so it's whatever. Let's all continue to be tribal and proscriptive.


That actually makes me really happy, so thank you. If I could convince even you of what the data actually shows, then that’s good enough for me. I had a suspicion you weren’t arguing in good faith since the beginning, but I appreciate the candor. With that said, I’m bowing out to go make more MagnaCut blades.


----------



## Mlan

spaceconvoy said:


> That's a rhetorical question btw. Anyone who's still confused and looking for an answer should google "NPD tactics"


----------



## spaceconvoy

jedy617 said:


> I can be rude when pushed to a point. And I got pushed to that point when I was treated like an idiot by a maker just because I didn't buy $14,000 of steel. I think that describes anyone. There are no "tactics" at play.


Thank you for agreeing with us that yes you have been rude. But no, it really doesn't describe 'anyone.' Look around and notice how very few other people eventually get dog-piled in every community they participate in. You are special. Never change


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## jedy617

spaceconvoy said:


> Thank you for agreeing with us that yes you have been rude. But no, it really doesn't describe 'anyone.' Look around and notice how very few other people eventually get dog-piled in every community they participate in. You are special. Never change


Thanks man, I too took highschool psychology.


----------



## Barclid

Transparent Knives said:


> That actually makes me really happy, so thank you. If I could convince even you of what the data actually shows, then that’s good enough for me. I had a suspicion you weren’t arguing in good faith since the beginning, but I appreciate the candor. With that said, I’m bowing out to go make more MagnaCut blades.


That's cute, lots of little jabs in there. I wasn't exactly arguing in bad faith, either. Just because you agree with the _preferred_ HRc target of a particular individual, does not mean that you agree that it is the _only target that should be sought in the production of kitchen knives with that steel_. I meant everything I said up until now: I believe that both you and Jedy are being entirely too proscriptive and are behaving like petulant children when people don't wholeheartedly agree with you. 

To be clear, you convinced me of nothing. This was purely from information gained by reading Larrin and I had already formed a suspected preference to the higher HRc heat treat before even seeing Jannis' knife. I still have not used a knife in MagnaCut at all, and I've largely given up active acquisition of knives in recent years. That doesn't mean I can't look at a situation, assess the whole breadth of information available, and find it perfectly reasonable that another reasonable individual would prefer the "default spec" heat treatment of a given steel. The fact that neither you nor Jedy can let this lie apparently is the source of the friction here.


----------



## superworrier

Sorry, but chef Panko says magnacut is optimal at 60 HRC. Given he worked 20 years to get his sushi chef certification in JAPAN I think I’ll be listening to him.


----------



## Barclid

superworrier said:


> Sorry, but chef Panko says magnacut is optimal at 60 HRC. Given he worked 20 years to get his sushi chef certification in JAPAN I think I’ll be listening to him.


He's who I want to be taking my cues from. He sounds legit.


----------



## enrico l

Holy hell, it's still going. This could be more popular than Daily Knife Pictures at this rate......


----------



## Barclid

enrico l said:


> Holy hell, it's still going. This could be more popular than Daily Knife Pictures at this rate......


Who cares about your new knife? Someone's _wrong_ on the internet.


----------



## superworrier

Sorry, I’ll stick with my 62 HRC magnacut because at 64 I’ll need to do a wet towel wipe each slice and clean it each use


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## crockerculinary

Omg. This is so painful to watch.


----------



## brotondo

crockerculinary said:


> Omg. This is so painful to watch.


Don’t just watch, dive in! The water is warm! I think a smol pp energy joke is still up for grabs miraculously. This is the true joy of the internet.


----------



## crockerculinary

brotondo said:


> Don’t just watch, dive in! The water is warm!


Yeah, like someone’s been peeing in the pool.


----------



## blokey

superworrier said:


> Sorry, I’ll stick with my 62 HRC magnacut because at 64 I’ll need to do a wet towel wipe each slice and clean it each use


He sounds like a good guy but absolutely clueless in what he's talking about.


----------



## Delat

jedy617 said:


> I really love the "I bought $14,000 of magnacut so I know what I'm doing"


He did not say he knows what he’s doing _because_ he bought 14k worth of MC.

He said _because_ he bought 14k worth of MC _to distribute,_ he read everything about MC, discussed with Larrin, and did his own testing. _Therefore_ based on the testing, reading, and discussion, he knows what he’s doing. The implication being that he felt a responsibility to research the material before distributing it.

His meaning is very clear and is not how you interpreted it.


----------



## Dhoff

I hope an admin closes this sh*t thread soon.

I think posting DM's without permission from all involved is not good practice and extremely rude (I know you were asked)

Starting a DM telling a maker how a steel should be HT is not polite. It does not show curiousity or involvement, but rather "I know better than you". That may or may not be correct but is still not a nice way

over and out.


----------



## umeboshi

crockerculinary said:


> Yeah, like someone’s been peeing in the pool.


The forbidden Gatorade.


----------



## Dan E

I’m too lazy to read through all this **** but suggest to Google “Danning-Kruger effect” to understand scientifically where Jedy stands. I even posted the graph of the studies for you below!


----------



## JayS20

Some of you guys are so full of themselves it's disgusting.
Ironically that's what you accuse Jedy of.
Only read the first 5 pages and that's already enough for me.


----------



## Jovidah

Dhoff said:


> That is an unacceptable statement. kindly delete it.
> 
> edit: to elaborate using autism indirecly or directly as insult, is extremely rude and hurtful to those who have it or have friends or family with autism.


Eh? I have family with autism. That's why the preceding 13 pages feel so familiar... Meant more as a diagnosis than an insult...
What frankly strikes me as more remarkable is how any reference to autism is immediately seen as insulting. It shouldn't be...


----------



## Carl Kotte

I know the struggle of trying to improve makers’ work via instagram. You know how many makers refuse to make san mai, stainless core/rusty clad, though clearly that’s what they should do? Why is listening to reason so hard? That said, I will never stop. I’ve found my mission!


----------



## Dhoff

Jovidah said:


> Eh? I have family with autism. That's why the preceding 13 pages feel so familiar... Meant more as a diagnosis than an insult...
> What frankly strikes me as more remarkable is how any reference to autism is immediately seen as insulting. It shouldn't be...



It is used widely as an insult on the internet.

Just as OP meaning was another than what was received clearly so was yours.

I would still politely request for you to delete it. Indirectly or directly calling Jedy's way of communicating and/or understanding of social interactions autistic is outside of your purview. It is using a diagnosis that can be extremely impacting on life too lightly


----------



## daveb

jedy617 said:


> The ignore button doesn't work does it?
> 
> I can ackshually all I want man. I know magnacut is better when it's harder due to personal experience, and data that says so. So yeah I'm not going to put up with garbage saying otherwise.


Can't get off that transmit button?

I'm here for you.


----------

