# The reactivity of my blue steel knives is driving me crazy at work



## WiscoNole (Mar 2, 2014)

I have been using carbon knives almost exclusively for about 4 years now, and lately I am using blue steel more and more at work because of the edge retention. I have blue gyutos from Mizuno, Watanabe, and Konosuke Fujiyama, and I've found that they are MUCH more reactive than my Masamoto KS, Gesshin Ginga, etc. Sometimes my blue steel knives will start to turn orange and brown while I'm still in the middle of a task! 

I haven't really seen anybody else mention something like this, so I'm wondering if there is anything I can do. I feel like they're so reactive that even if I tried to carefully force a patina, they would just turn orange and I would be taking a green scrubbie to the blade for the 7th time that day.


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## ThEoRy (Mar 2, 2014)

If its the blade face, really it's iron cladding, no?


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## panda (Mar 2, 2014)

scrub it with baking soda when ever it starts to look gross. eventually you will be able to go longer between scrubbing as reactivity gets lower and lower.


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## easy13 (Mar 2, 2014)

My Mizuno is the worst with the reactivity, barely use it.


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## EdipisReks (Mar 2, 2014)

I've never really noticed that, and I've owned a lot of blue steel knives. My Blue 1 Konosuke Fuji is pretty light on reactivity, in particular.


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## Timthebeaver (Mar 3, 2014)

ThEoRy said:


> If its the blade face, really it's iron cladding, no?



As usual, yes. The KS and the Ginga are zen-ko/monosteel white. The iron cladding on e.g. a Mizuno is considerably more reactive than the blue steel core. Blue steel is in fact less reactive than white due to the addition of alloying elements like chromium and tungsten.


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## Mateyhv (Mar 3, 2014)

I can't say much about carbon steels but its probably the kind of food you are cutting that makes the steel so reactive. Hot and humid environment will generaly promote reactivity. Scrubbing and exposing new steel will add fresh material for reactivity.


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## Sam Cro (Mar 3, 2014)

*52100 steel is not stainless steel!* 
All Blue Knives are made from 52100 steel, a high-quality alloy ideally suited for fine knife blades. 

Those who are unfamiliar with high carbon steel are often surprised to see their knife blade stain with normal use. However, this stain will not affect the functionality of the knife and it will soon develop an elegant grey patina. 

_*Wash *_ 
After using your knife make sure to use a sponge and mild detergent to clean the blade of your knife. _(Foods like tomatoes, limes and other acidic fruits and vegetables are especially corrosive and should never be left on the blade for extended periods.)_ _*

Never put knives in the dishwasher. The extreme heat and water will damage the handle and blade of the Knife.*__*

Dry*_
Dry your knife with a dish cloth after cleaning. Be extremely careful not to cut your self when cleaning the Blade.

_(Never leave your knife in the sink, prolonged exposure to water can cause rust on the blade and damage the handle of the knife.)_ _*

Store*_
Be sure to store your knife in a safe location where it will not be nicked or damaged. Magnetic knife racks and traditional knife blocks are both good places to store your knife.

One great solution is to do something like make French onion soup, or set up your prep station to break down a huge mass of onions all in one go. Make sure you've already started the patina -- cutting almost anything for a day or two will do that. Then just wade into your onions, wiping damp often as you go. By the end of the shift (or task, if this is at home), your knife will be very far along the way to a great patina that will not react with onions and lemons in the future.

I hope this Helps you out .


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## chefcomesback (Mar 3, 2014)

Sam Cro said:


> *52100 steel is not stainless steel!*
> All Blue Knives are made from 52100 steel, a high-quality alloy ideally suited for fine knife blades.
> 
> Those who are unfamiliar with high carbon steel are often surprised to see their knife blade stain with normal use. However, this stain will not affect the functionality of the knife and it will soon develop an elegant grey patina.
> ...


I am not sure if the statement about blue steel is true. Blue steel ,which is manufactured by hitachi is made by adding chromium and wolfram to thier white steel. 52100 has less carbon than blue , has traces of copper and some silicon .


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## Pensacola Tiger (Mar 3, 2014)

Sam Cro said:


> *52100 steel is not stainless steel!*
> All Blue Knives are made from 52100 steel, a high-quality alloy ideally suited for fine knife blades.
> 
> ...



I think you've gotten knives made by Alex _*Blue*_ confused with knives made from Hitachi _*blue*_ paper carbon steel, which is what is being discussed.

BTW, all of Alex Blue's knives are not made from 52100, as he makes a line of knives from damascus steel, which is, in his words, "... made from four types of high carbon steel that have been forge welded together, twisted and manipulated to form a beautiful 412 layer steel billet".


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## hojuturtle (Mar 3, 2014)

I usually wipe the blade with hot vinegar water until it starts a patina. Then slice some raw or cooked meat ( usually raw beef).
Wash with hot water, dry. Then cut some onions. This method works well for me for highly reactive claddings such as watanabe.
..not always tho..


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## aaamax (Mar 4, 2014)

Sam Cro said:


> *52100 steel is not stainless steel!*
> wade into your onions, wiping damp often as you go. By the end of the shift (or task, if this is at home), your knife will be very far along the way to a great patina that will not react with onions and lemons in the future.
> .


As quoted above.
Go to town on a crate of pineapples is my favorite break-in. Damp wipe often.
Cheers. 
BtW, for god sakes man, never question carbon!


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## Benuser (Mar 4, 2014)

hojuturtle said:


> I usually wipe the blade with hot vinegar water until it starts a patina. Then slice some raw or cooked meat ( usually raw beef).
> Wash with hot water, dry. Then cut some onions. This method works well for me for highly reactive claddings such as watanabe.
> ..not always tho..


Great method, I would degrease with alcohol before, though.


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## experimentalist (Mar 5, 2014)

I honestly don't get the whole carbon steel movement. I understand it has great edge retention but then so does any other knife with the same or similar HRC. My chef's knife made of VG-10 has great edge retention and has only HRC 60. You can get knives made of SG2 that are even harder than any carbon knife and VG-10. Granted the harder the blade the harder it is to sharpen. VG-10 and SG2 are non reactive stainless steels. I'm not even going to mention zdp-189 that can go as high as HRC 68 while still being non reactive...too late.

I put a 10.5º 50/50 bevel (21º inclusive) on my VG-10 knife, used it for the last few weeks and the edge still hasn't rolled nor chipped even microscopically. I can supply pics of the edge under 300X magnification if anyone is interested, but I suspect there is some other reason for the reactive steel movement other than manufacturer's saving money on the steel and not passing on the savings to the consumer considering how much they cost. 

So I humbly ask you, for I am relatively new to the knife connoisseur's world, why put up with reactive steel when you can have great edge retention with stainless steels without the hassle of reactivity?


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## Timthebeaver (Mar 5, 2014)

Carbon steel used as hagane is much less of a problem, it's iron cladding that is the problem. For an all-purpose knife, I don't get it either.


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## Benuser (Mar 5, 2014)

experimentalist said:


> I honestly don't get the whole carbon steel movement. I understand it has great edge retention but then so does any other knife with the same or similar HRC. My chef's knife made of VG-10 has great edge retention and has only HRC 60. You can get knives made of SG2 that are even harder than any carbon knife and VG-10. Granted the harder the blade the harder it is to sharpen. VG-10 and SG2 are non reactive stainless steels. I'm not even going to mention zdp-189 that can go as high as HRC 68 while still being non reactive...too late.
> 
> I put a 10.5º 50/50 bevel (21º inclusive) on my VG-10 knife, used it for the last few weeks and the edge still hasn't rolled nor chipped even microscopically. I can supply pics of the edge under 300X magnification if anyone is interested, but I suspect there is some other reason for the reactive steel movement other than manufacturer's saving money on the steel and not passing on the savings to the consumer considering how much they cost.
> 
> So I humbly ask you, for I am relatively new to the knife connoisseur's world, why put up with reactive steel when you can have great edge retention with stainless steels without the hassle of reactivity?



Just a few remarks. Not so sure about the difference in edge retention between carbon and stainless in general. I would rather compare steel by steel. The're very different carbon steels, and even more different stainless ones.
If you're fine with your VG-10 blade's edge retention, fine. I would note that the dulling curve of VG-10 is a particular one. It gets scary sharp, will loose its initial sharpness very quickly, and remain at a very acceptable level almost forever.
Very basic carbon steels will get much sharper, just because of a finer grain and the absence of large carbides. These basic carbons are cheaper, not so much because of the costs of the material, but because of the easy processing. Small workshops won't have to outsource heat treatment, may do all at home. 
Now about sharpening. Most carbons are very easy to sharpen. No hard deburring as with e.g. VG-10 where a burr has to got painfully abraded. 
A simple carbon blade can get touched up with a few strokes only. 
If you like to sharpen, want the sharpest edge that can be obtained and are fine with some basic maintenance rules, have a carbon steel. Otherwise, get into advanced stainless.


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## Mateyhv (Mar 5, 2014)

experimentalist said:


> I honestly don't get the whole carbon steel movement. I understand it has great edge retention but then so does any other knife with the same or similar HRC. My chef's knife made of VG-10 has great edge retention and has only HRC 60. You can get knives made of SG2 that are even harder than any carbon knife and VG-10. Granted the harder the blade the harder it is to sharpen. VG-10 and SG2 are non reactive stainless steels. I'm not even going to mention zdp-189 that can go as high as HRC 68 while still being non reactive...too late.
> 
> I put a 10.5º 50/50 bevel (21º inclusive) on my VG-10 knife, used it for the last few weeks and the edge still hasn't rolled nor chipped even microscopically. I can supply pics of the edge under 300X magnification if anyone is interested, but I suspect there is some other reason for the reactive steel movement other than manufacturer's saving money on the steel and not passing on the savings to the consumer considering how much they cost.
> 
> So I humbly ask you, for I am relatively new to the knife connoisseur's world, why put up with reactive steel when you can have great edge retention with stainless steels without the hassle of reactivity?



You brought a really interesting point and I think it probably deserves a new thread. I have not used carbon knives but from all the forum and webs I have read about cutlery but the only field carbon knives are superior to (quality) stainless for the final user is the sharpness of the edge, but then its also lost quite quickly. But I can't understand all the trouble that comes with reactivity unless ist just for fun like food reactivity, discoloring, rust, constant cleaning/drying, patina that might look apealing but most (at least to me) looks ugly. What I mean is that I have not found a real and unquestionable superiority in carbon to justify all the trouble from above. I am quite sure that the cutting performance of a knife is geometry and profile related, not steel related. The type of steel appears to influences the initial level of sharpness and the durability of the edge, in the form of hardness, toughness, chipiness, wear resistence, etc. For example white #2 steel takes great edge but is not that wear resistant.

I remember having read JBroidas opinion somewhere about the best usage for white and blue steels, white being better for slicing and blue, more wear resistant, being better for cutting action.



Timthebeaver said:


> Carbon steel used as hagane is much less of a problem, it's iron cladding that is the problem. For an all-purpose knife, I don't get it either.



I don't understand how iron can be used in any kitchen tool... I have always though that the somewhat reactive carbon steel was "protected" in a stainless or semi-stainless steel.

All in all I am no expert so probably a better explanation will come.


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## EdipisReks (Mar 5, 2014)

The soft iron cladding is much more easily refinished after thinning, and the reactivity usually isn't that big of a deal, if you know how to treat it. I think the trade off is worth it.


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## panda (Mar 6, 2014)

simple: carbon is awesome, stainless is not.


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## PushCut (Mar 6, 2014)

panda said:


> scrub it with baking soda when ever it starts to look gross. eventually you will be able to go longer between scrubbing as reactivity gets lower and lower.





Do you need to make a paste out of the baking soda or can you scrub it with dry baking soda?


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## panda (Mar 6, 2014)

make a paste, wax on, scrub, wax off.


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## knyfeknerd (Mar 6, 2014)

experimentalist said:


> I honestly don't get the whole carbon steel movement. I understand it has great edge retention but then so does any other knife with the same or similar HRC. My chef's knife made of VG-10 has great edge retention and has only HRC 60. You can get knives made of SG2 that are even harder than any carbon knife and VG-10. Granted the harder the blade the harder it is to sharpen. VG-10 and SG2 are non reactive stainless steels. I'm not even going to mention zdp-189 that can go as high as HRC 68 while still being non reactive...too late.
> 
> I put a 10.5º 50/50 bevel (21º inclusive) on my VG-10 knife, used it for the last few weeks and the edge still hasn't rolled nor chipped even microscopically. I can supply pics of the edge under 300X magnification if anyone is interested, but I suspect there is some other reason for the reactive steel movement other than manufacturer's saving money on the steel and not passing on the savings to the consumer considering how much they cost.
> 
> So I humbly ask you, for I am relatively new to the knife connoisseur's world, why put up with reactive steel when you can have great edge retention with stainless steels without the hassle of reactivity?


Reactivity isn't a hassle, it's a blessing.
It isn't a carbon steel movement, it's always been there-always will.
HRC isn't everything.


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## PushCut (Mar 6, 2014)

panda said:


> make a paste, wax on, scrub, wax off.



Thank you Panda.


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## Chuckles (Mar 6, 2014)

experimentalist said:


> I honestly don't get the whole carbon steel movement. I understand it has great edge retention but then so does any other knife with the same or similar HRC. My chef's knife made of VG-10 has great edge retention and has only HRC 60. You can get knives made of SG2 that are even harder than any carbon knife and VG-10. Granted the harder the blade the harder it is to sharpen. VG-10 and SG2 are non reactive stainless steels. I'm not even going to mention zdp-189 that can go as high as HRC 68 while still being non reactive...too late.
> 
> I put a 10.5º 50/50 bevel (21º inclusive) on my VG-10 knife, used it for the last few weeks and the edge still hasn't rolled nor chipped even microscopically. I can supply pics of the edge under 300X magnification if anyone is interested, but I suspect there is some other reason for the reactive steel movement other than manufacturer's saving money on the steel and not passing on the savings to the consumer considering how much they cost.
> 
> So I humbly ask you, for I am relatively new to the knife connoisseur's world, why put up with reactive steel when you can have great edge retention with stainless steels without the hassle of reactivity?




One of my favorite threads on the forum:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...na-thread?highlight=My+favorite+color+is+blue


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## ThEoRy (Mar 6, 2014)

knyfeknerd said:


> HRC isn't everything.



Izzackly..

Grain structure and carbide size have a lot to do with the edge retention no matter what the steel, carbon or stainless. It always comes back to the forging and heat treatment.


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