# Light cleaver besides CCK



## gcsquared (Aug 21, 2019)

A lot of chinese vegetable cleavers that are made in China are much lighter than the japanese-made variants. Specifically, I find the weight and handling of CCK cleavers to be my sweetspot. The steel on CCK is okay, but leaves a lot more to be desired.

Have you come across any Japanese-made cleavers that are of similar weight-class to a CCK?

Thanks.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 21, 2019)

I'm waiting on the gesshin ginga carbon to hopefully come back in stock. I've not tried one but guessing it would be lighter than the standard ones. i completely agree w your thoughts on cck. likely they best option may be a western custom.


----------



## fuzion (Aug 21, 2019)

Takeda is pretty light for a Japanese cleaver


----------



## gcsquared (Aug 21, 2019)

fuzion said:


> Takeda is pretty light for a Japanese cleaver



Indeed! That’s the only one I can think of. But I always find a long wa-handle on a chinese cleaver to be a strange combo. I guess it can be shortened ...


----------



## gcsquared (Aug 21, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I'm waiting on the gesshin ginga carbon to hopefully come back in stock. I've not tried one but guessing it would be lighter than the standard ones. i completely agree w your thoughts on cck. likely they best option may be a western custom.



Yea, western custom seems like the right route given the limited option in the japanese market in that weight class. I was hoping maybe someone has dug up some light Japanese cleavers for us to choose from lol.

What about TFTFTFTFTF? Maybe Xenif can let us know if he sees this post!


----------



## JoeWheels (Aug 21, 2019)

What about some of these "tall nakiris?"
Matsubara looks nice, if that profile is sufficient for you.


----------



## Michi (Aug 21, 2019)

I just weighed my CCK 1301 (215 mm) cleaver. It weighs 268 g. The small Takeda (210 mm), according to online sources, weighs 278 g; the larger (240 mm) one weighs 340 g. So, the Takeda is not quite as light as the CCK. The profile is different, too: the Takeda has more of a belly.

In terms of steel, I have no doubt that the Aogami Super of the Takeda is way better. On the other hand, I can get my CCK extremely sharp with ten minutes on the stones, and it re-sharpens quickly and easily.

The value proposition is a bit wonky though, IMO. I can buy a CCK for about $80, and the Takeda costs $550. To put this into perspective, I can buy seven CCKs for the price of a single Takeda…


----------



## Jville (Aug 21, 2019)

I have a small takeda classic cleaver and a small cck. The takeda cleaver is definitely light and nimble. One great thing about it is of course the food release. Cck are super sticky! Steel of course on the takeda is great too. Are you referencing the large cck or the small cck?


----------



## Michi (Aug 21, 2019)

Jville said:


> Cck are super sticky! Steel of course on the takeda is great too. Are you referencing the large cck or the small cck?


I was talking about the 1301, which is the small CCK cleaver. I've only cut a few things with my CCK so far, so can't comment on food release yet. But I wouldn't expect any cleaver to be all that great with respect to food release—the grind is pretty much smooth all the way from the spine to the blade, so there is plenty of flat surface area for food to adhere.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Aug 21, 2019)

Even with lighter veg. Cleavers they are used a lot for chopping. You can get the CCK very sharp it will not hold the edge as long as harder steel. Esp. with the medium and heavy Chinese carbon cleavers it is better to have softer steel that will not chip as easy going through shells, small bone etc.

Have restored some vintage Chinese carbon cleavers with nice grinds. Thick spines tapering all the way to the edge. My Kau Kong has that type of grind. Believe it Chinese know how to make cleavers. Don't think about chasing high hrt. On a cleaver or a skinny wa handle.


----------



## Xenif (Aug 22, 2019)

I've been enjoying my Yu Kurosaki Mini Chuka, kind of a happy marriage between a tall nakiri and a chuka, edge retention is ok with AS, ground really thin but has a noticeable shoulder that helps with some release. Its a bit "small" at only 175x72 and 231g (ebony/paka handle) if you are looking for a full size replacement of a 1301 this is not it. But it has the qualities that I Iove about my CCK, with better steel, better food release, similar amount of weight above the edge, similar profile, just smaller.


----------



## Jville (Aug 22, 2019)

I think the smaller sugimoto cleaver might work for you, although it's a little heavier and I haven't used it personally. Also the takeda cleaver does have good food release. Others can have good food release to just like knives that have more complexity in grind. Oops, i meant to ask op if he had the small or large cleaver.


Michi said:


> I was talking about the 1301, which is the small CCK cleaver. I've only cut a few things with my CCK so far, so can't comment on food release yet. But I wouldn't expect any cleaver to be all that great with respect to food release—the grind is pretty much smooth all the way from the spine to the blade, so there is plenty of flat surface area for food to adhere.





Keith Sinclair said:


> Even with lighter veg. Cleavers they are used a lot for chopping. You can get the CCK very sharp it will not hold the edge as long as harder steel. Esp. with the medium and heavy Chinese carbon cleavers it is better to have softer steel that will not chip as easy going through shells, small bone etc.
> 
> Have restored some vintage Chinese carbon cleavers with nice grinds. Thick spines tapering all the way to the edge. My Kau Kong has that type of grind. Believe it Chinese know how to make cleavers. Don't think about chasing high hrt. On a cleaver or a skinny wa handle.



If you don't like Japanese, higher hardness steels, in a cleaver that's your perogative. But you don't need to use your veg cleaver for all the rough stuff, just like you don't use your good knives for the rough stuff. You can have a beater cleaver for that. I got some bad ass Japanese cleavers that are awesome performers. Of course in the end it's personal preference, but I think it's a fair quest to want a lighter style cleaver with better Japanese steel.


----------



## Jville (Aug 22, 2019)

Also the Toyama 210 nakiri is about the same weight as the small cck, but the balance is way different.


----------



## fuzion (Aug 22, 2019)

I have the large takeda and a large cck, the takeda is slightly heavier because of the handle, but they feel about the same in the hand because of the balance. Takeda might even feel lighter because it's less blade heavy.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Aug 22, 2019)

I agree that if you treat a thin vegetable cleaver like you would a fine gyuto can have harder steel. I know most here only use light cleavers. At work used veg., medium & bone cleavers. I had no problem with my 1303 veg. cleaver until I let someone use it came back with a lot of chips in the edge. 

I had to oil my carbon cleavers when retired because hardly used. I sold or gave them away except my Kau Kong Chopper keep it oiled it is there when I need it.

Trying to find a good stainless veg. cleaver struck out a few times. Didn't care for the CCK stainless, tried a AEB-L with a wa handle won't mention the maker worst cleaver ever used wanted to throw it in the trash. Finally on third try got the Sugimoto 4030 had it over four years now. It's a little shorter than a 1303. The handle is OK. The Crom Moly steel is easy to sharpen and is very chip resistant. For me it has worked out as a home cleaver.


----------



## Jville (Aug 22, 2019)

Keith Sinclair said:


> I agree that if you treat a thin vegetable cleaver like you would a fine gyuto can have harder steel. I know most here only use light cleavers. At work used veg., medium & bone cleavers. I had no problem with my 1303 veg. cleaver until I let someone use it came back with a lot of chips in the edge.
> 
> I had to oil my carbon cleavers when retired because hardly used. I sold or gave them away except my Kau Kong Chopper keep it oiled it is there when I need it.
> 
> Trying to find a good stainless veg. cleaver struck out a few times. Didn't care for the CCK stainless, tried a AEB-L with a wa handle won't mention the maker worst cleaver ever used wanted to throw it in the trash. Finally on third try got the Sugimoto 4030 had it over four years now. It's a little shorter than a 1303. The handle is OK. The Crom Moly steel is easy to sharpen and is very chip resistant. For me it has worked out as a home cleaver.



I wanted one of those 4030 Sugi cleavers. I hated the steel on my cck stainless at first, but after a few sharpenings i think i found the sweet spot. I don't mind the steel so much anymore.


----------



## jonnachang (Aug 22, 2019)

Fook Kee is a brand that is sold by Hikari Knives in Israel. Eduardo aka Jakkonoise has done a few videos with them. Looks solid!


----------



## Noodle Soup (Aug 22, 2019)

The Japanese Knife Imports Gesshin Chinese would probably meet your needs but its sold out most of the time. I went on waiting list and bought one last year. Used it for a while but I tend to always have other cleavers waiting to be tried. For the most part, I stick with my Chinese, Cambodian,Thai and Viet cleavers. They tend to have more memories attached.


----------



## SeattleBen (Aug 22, 2019)

Michi said:


> The value proposition is a bit wonky though, IMO. I can buy a CCK for about $80, and the Takeda costs $550. To put this into perspective, I can buy seven CCKs for the price of a single Takeda…



This is my thought process exactly. I’m definitely a bit value conscious and the idea that a Takeda is 7 times better than my CCK is a bit much. I realize my logic is fuzzy here but that’s fine with me. A coworker that I used to have who was an Eleven Madison Park and Alinea alum functionally only used a cheap Chinese cleaver when I worked with him at Modernist Cuisine only rarely breaking out a petty for very fine work. I asked about the cleaver selection and he was appalled at the idea of spending even as much as one would on a CCK. I’m not sure how relevant this has become, I’m sorry.


----------



## Jville (Aug 22, 2019)

SeattleBen said:


> This is my thought process exactly. I’m definitely a bit value conscious and the idea that a Takeda is 7 times better than my CCK is a bit much. I realize my logic is fuzzy here but that’s fine with me. A coworker that I used to have who was an Eleven Madison Park and Alinea alum functionally only used a cheap Chinese cleaver when I worked with him at Modernist Cuisine only rarely breaking out a petty for very fine work. I asked about the cleaver selection and he was appalled at the idea of spending even as much as one would on a CCK. I’m not sure how relevant this has become, I’m sorry.



This is s a moot point. You could say someone could use an inexpensive chef knives to do everything. No one said anybody had to own theses. Why do you think it's any different with a cleaver, kind of ridiculous? And actually the food release between a takeda and a cck might be seven times more lol.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 22, 2019)

I'm not sure anyone is so interested in food release w a Chinese cleaver...


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Aug 22, 2019)

Esp. with thin flat veg. Cleavers. Can't beat them fine chopping though.


----------



## gcsquared (Aug 22, 2019)

I’ve actually been on and off with my love for cleavers. At one point 10-12 years ago when I first started getting into knives, I was very interested in cleavers and collected a few (Nenox, DT ITK, Sugimoto 4030, etc.). I still have them all. Interestingly, they were all stainless for the very lame reason that I thought bigger carbon surface area = higher chance of food discoloration and rust.

I then stopped caring much for cleavers and used almost exclusively various styles of gyutos... Until recently, I bought a small CCK cleaver (~200mm in length) for my mom to use. Thought it was going to be a throw-away but boy I had so much fun using it!

So now the journey for the “ultimate” cleaver has resurrected (I’ll refrain from using “perfect” because for addicts like us, we will never find the perfect knife).


----------



## Xenif (Aug 22, 2019)

At the end of the day, its about joy. Some people find joy in being frugal and efficient. Some people find joy in cutting speed/ability. Some people find joy in excess and the ability to flex. Rocking a $1000 Heiji Cleaver dosen't mean that person can cook or even cut; using a $50 CCK doesn't make you any more or less of a cook/chef.
You can life hack thr CCK with taping a thin coin to the right side and now you have food release lol


----------



## gcsquared (Aug 22, 2019)

Completely agree. It doesn’t matter if it’s a $1000 knife or a $100 knife, as long as it’s fun and a joy to use, it’s a good knife. 

Now of course, having the luxury to try the $1000 cleaver is a boon!


----------



## daddy yo yo (Aug 22, 2019)

Watanabe offers cleavers too, on a regular basis. Most of them aren't light, but once in a while there's a light(er) one available...

Lightest one atm weighs 390g (source): 
"_Total length 320mm, blade length 215mm, width 115mm, thickness 1.8mm, Weight 390g, Double bevel,
Kintaro ame white steel, polished blade, red dyed maple wood handle_"


----------



## Jville (Aug 22, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I'm not sure anyone is so interested in food release w a Chinese cleaver...



If you use a it as your main veg knife you might really enjoy some food release. Honestly if my cck small cleaver had great food release, and perhaps some better edge retention, boom, quest for perfect knife would be over. 



Xenif said:


> At the end of the day, its about joy. Some people find joy in being frugal and efficient. Some people find joy in cutting speed/ability. Some people find joy in excess and the ability to flex. Rocking a $1000 Heiji Cleaver dosen't mean that person can cook or even cut; using a $50 CCK doesn't make you any more or less of a cook/chef.
> You can life hack thr CCK with taping a thin coin to the right side and now you have food release lol



Totally agree, people sometimes think, because you propose a knife is better in this or that atea that you are saying it is a neccesity. Cooking knowledge is seperate from knife knowledge. Although the two can relate to each other. I seen a guy rocking through all his prep with a serrated bread knife, because thats what he had. He was cutting peppers and some other stuff by rocking his bread knife. It was impressive in its own way. The average cook doesnt even own a "good" or sharp knife, but thry make it through the day. I have the $1000 heji and also the $80 cck. i find them extremely different and both good in there own ways. Hmmm, a small heji semi stainless would be super bad ass but i digress. Also im intetested in seeing that coin trick in action.


----------



## Michi (Aug 22, 2019)

Considering its size, $550 for a Takeda cleaver in Aogami Super is actually still reasonable, in the sense that a Gyuto will cost around $400. It's just that, personally, I don't see a reason to pay that much for a cleaver when a $80 CCK will do the job just about as well.

I've said here before that, once a knife costs more than about $300, we are in the realm of collectibles, art, and vanity. In terms of just cutting performance, I don't think the cost of such knives can be justified. But then, I own Takeshi Saji and Masamoto knives that each cost north of $500, so I'm guilty as charged…

Beauty and value are in the eye of the beholder, and a person's right to spend as much as they see fit on a knife is inalienable


----------



## boomchakabowwow (Aug 25, 2019)

This forum certainly favors the Japanese blades. But seriously, my CCK kicks ass. Blindfolded, I wouldn’t be able to tell which wafer thin tomatoes were cut from a CCK and one with some other Japanese (insert color here) steel.


----------



## Jville (Aug 25, 2019)

I've been using my takeda some recently, and it is such a joy. I think the quality of a cleaver having the superb food release that it does is underated. It also goes through dense food like carrots wonderfully.


----------



## bruce8088 (Aug 25, 2019)

no doubt in the right hands any adequately thin cleaver (like a cck) would get the job done but there are some nice cleavers other than a cck that is worth the price... takeda AS cleaver has a nice forged hollow that gives great food release without losing much cutting performance- stickage is usually really common for something as thin and tall as a cleaver. mizuno size 6 has a nice convex grind with the weight to go with it which just helps it plow through produce and kemadi small cleaver has that awesome toothiness and edge retention from bulat steel.


----------



## Jville (Aug 26, 2019)

boomchakabowwow said:


> This forum certainly favors the Japanese blades. But seriously, my CCK kicks ass. Blindfolded, I wouldn’t be able to tell which wafer thin tomatoes were cut from a CCK and one with some other Japanese (insert color here) steel.



If I could only own one knife, I would probably pick the small cck cleaver that I own. It would probably be the most practical one and done tool for me. It can process literally anything I can think of. That being said, it is piss you off sticky and there are so many other knifes and cleavers that I often would rather use over it. Sometimes I resent it for being so overwhelming practical, while being so crude. But it's usefulness as a tool I wouldn't begin to argue against.


----------



## gcsquared (Aug 26, 2019)

Jville said:


> If I could only own one knife, I would probably pick the small cck cleaver that I own. It would probably be the most practical one and done tool for me. It can process literally anything I can think of. That being said, it is piss you off sticky and there are so many other knifes and cleavers that I often would rather use over it. Sometimes I resent it for being so overwhelming practical, while being so crude. But it's usefulness as a tool I wouldn't begin to argue against.



I agree completely. It really annoys how often I want to grab that knife, but every time I use it, I wish it had better steel, better grind, blah blah. Ugh!


----------



## gcsquared (Aug 26, 2019)

bruce8088 said:


> no doubt in the right hands any adequately thin cleaver (like a cck) would get the job done but there are some nice cleavers other than a cck that is worth the price... takeda AS cleaver has a nice forged hollow that gives great food release without losing much cutting performance- stickage is usually really common for something as thin and tall as a cleaver. mizuno size 6 has a nice convex grind with the weight to go with it which just helps it plow through produce and kemadi small cleaver has that awesome toothiness and edge retention from bulat steel.



That Takeda AS cleaver... that grind ...


----------



## KO88 (Aug 27, 2019)

I have Takeda and it is very light and works perfect- super happy with it. It s joy to make stirfry  and you dont need any other knife


----------



## davidg (Aug 27, 2019)

Jville said:


> I've been using my takeda some recently, and it is such a joy. I think the quality of a cleaver having the superb food release that it does is underated. It also goes through dense food like carrots wonderfully.



I've heavily considered the Takeda, but I already feel I do not use my Kono enough to warrant spending the money. I think stellar food release would be an awesome addition to a cleaver! I was truly afraid of the wedging grind through things like carrots though. My Takeda gyuto needs some work as it tends to wedge more than I'd like. Glad to hear your thoughts!


----------



## Matus (Aug 27, 2019)

To my understanding Sugimoto #1 should be the thinnest of their line while having full length. 
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/cleaver-sizing-cck-sugimoto.14701/#post-246695


----------



## gcsquared (Aug 29, 2019)

Matus said:


> To my understanding Sugimoto #1 should be the thinnest of their line while having full length.
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/cleaver-sizing-cck-sugimoto.14701/#post-246695



That is very interesting! I never knew there was a Sugimoto no.1 

I couldn’t find much information on this knife on KKF or the free web, so decided to get one direct from the Sugimoto website. Will report back.


----------

