# Good Knife-Related Metallurgy Resources?



## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

Like perhaps many on these forums, I'm a geek.

I love to wrap my head around complex concepts and then play with them and see what I can make.

I'm also all-to-aware the the internet has a few too many know-nothing blow-hards that are all too willing to spout off garbage and half-truths, so whenever possible I prefer to get started in the right direction by asking more experienced people which resources are actually worth trusting and learning from.

Toward that end, I'm interested in diving in and learning what I can about knife-related metallurgy and some of the theory behind what happens during forging and heat treating, and would appreciate experienced advice on some good places to start.

I have an interested layman's knowledge of chemistry and am comfortable with math up through calculus if any of that matters for the subject. I don't mind choking a bit in the deep end of the pool, but a way to wade in first wouldn't hurt my feelings.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide the eager newb.


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## Nemo (Dec 20, 2016)

Verhoeven. Search "metallurgy for knifemakers".

Careful. It might bend your brain &#128518;


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

Right on. Sometimes getting a bit bent is good for it.


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## Nemo (Dec 20, 2016)

Enjoy


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## bkultra (Dec 20, 2016)

Larrin Thomas


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## tsuriru (Dec 20, 2016)

"The working, heat treating, and welding of steel" , Harry L. Campbell, M.S. , New York, John Wiley & Sons, Inc. 1940


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

Right on folks. Thanks! I'm sure I'll work my way through a bunch of books eventually. Tons to learn, just the way I like it.


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## ecchef (Dec 20, 2016)

bkultra said:


> Larrin Thomas



+1.


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

I'm not finding any books or videos by Larrin Thomas, though I did find a linkedin profile. Does he have some available form of media about metallurgy that I'm missing, or....?


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## WillC (Dec 20, 2016)

You won't, other than snippets of wisdom on certain materials. You need to read Verhoeven it's a properly written guide to heat treatments written especially for bladesmiths. 
http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf
Build a quick forge and make a few knives as your reading it, knifemaking is a doing type of thing.


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

WillC said:


> You won't, other than snippets of wisdom on certain materials. You need to read Verhoeven it's a properly written guide to heat treatments written especially for bladesmiths.
> http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf
> Build a quick forge and make a few knives as your reading it, knifemaking is a doing type of thing.



Sounds like a plan. Thanks for the advice.


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

Unfortunately I am going to have to practice a little patience for a while though. I have access to a metal shop, and building a small forge seems very doable from videos I've watched, but I don't have an anvil yet, and I'm primarily interested in forging rather than stock removal.

Need to hit the local scrap yards sometime soon. See if I can find something workable to get started with.

That's part of the reason I've been distracting myself a bit by studying up on theory and techniques. Time will come....soon.


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## bkultra (Dec 20, 2016)

Noah said:


> I'm not finding any books or videos by Larrin Thomas, though I did find a linkedin profile. Does he have some available form of media about metallurgy that I'm missing, or....?



User name on most forums is Larrin. He is one of Devin's son's. He has a masters in materials science and a PhD in metallurgy. His posts are worth seeking out. He is one of the people I miss most on this forum. He shared a lot of knowledge with us and I'm forever grateful.


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

bkultra said:


> User name on most forums is Larrin. He is one of Devin's son's. He has a masters in materials science and a PhD in metallurgy. His posts are worth seeking out. He is one of the people I miss most on this forum. He shared a lot of knowledge with us and I'm forever grateful.



Ah, thanks for the clarification. I'll be sure to seek his posts out as I learn.


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## milkbaby (Dec 20, 2016)

Noah said:


> Unfortunately I am going to have to practice a little patience for a while though. I have access to a metal shop, and building a small forge seems very doable from videos I've watched, but I don't have an anvil yet, and I'm primarily interested in forging rather than stock removal.
> 
> Need to hit the local scrap yards sometime soon. See if I can find something workable to get started with.
> 
> That's part of the reason I've been distracting myself a bit by studying up on theory and techniques. Time will come....soon.



Definitely read Verhoeven as he explains all the science instead of forums where you can often get a do-it-this-way recipe (which may not always be correct).

Also don't knock stock removal as a way to get started. I'm working on my own knives #3, 4, and 5 right now, all stock removal only so far, but I'm learning a LOT by DOING as WillC mentioned. Designing, prototyping, bevel grinding, heat treat, tempering, and handle construction are all things you can learn and gain experience doing on stock removal knives that will be applicable to forged knives. Also, forged knives will also require stock removal unless you're only planning on making some caveman sort of blunt force hacking ax.

It's easy to make something quite usable, hard to make something superb. It's a lot of fun though! :doublethumbsup:


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

milkbaby said:


> Definitely read Verhoeven as he explains all the science instead of forums where you can often get a do-it-this-way recipe (which may not always be correct).



Indeed, the reading in his book I've done so far seems like it's very well done and makes things quite understandable.



milkbaby said:


> Also don't knock stock removal as a way to get started. I'm working on my own knives #3, 4, and 5 right now, all stock removal only so far, but I'm learning a LOT by DOING as WillC mentioned. Designing, prototyping, bevel grinding, heat treat, tempering, and handle construction are all things you can learn and gain experience doing on stock removal knives that will be applicable to forged knives. Also, forged knives will also require stock removal unless you're only planning on making some caveman sort of blunt force hacking ax.
> 
> It's easy to make something quite usable, hard to make something superb. It's a lot of fun though! :doublethumbsup:



Yeah good points. I shouldn't let my fascination with forging delay getting my feet wet while I acquire the tools needed to do things the way I really want to.

Sorta wanted my first knife to be one I forged myself. But I guess that can wait...


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## Kippington (Dec 20, 2016)

WillC said:


> Build a quick forge and make a few knives as your reading it, knifemaking is a doing type of thing.



This.

Studying papers and watching videos is one thing, but to hold a piece of steel yourself and watch/feel it subtly change right in front of your eyes is something else entirely.

https://youtu.be/4x0f2b_0kn0?t=6m17s


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

Kippington said:


> This.
> 
> Studying papers and watching videos is one thing, but to hold a piece of steel yourself and watch/feel it subtly change right in front of your eyes is something else entirely.
> 
> https://youtu.be/4x0f2b_0kn0?t=6m17s



Yup, I hear ya folks. Thanks for the encouragement and good advice. 

I do tend to be a theory-first sort of learner, but I also know that can't replace the value of hands-on experience.


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