# Gyuto profile review - Help needed



## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

Hi,

This is supposed to be a 210mm version.

Could you please provide feedback on the design.







Thanks in advance.


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## kbright (Nov 5, 2020)

Looks like a gyuto. The more interesting decisions are type of steel, hardness, thickness at the tang, and flatness or curve of the edge. I assume that you are doing stock removal, not forging? For grinding your bevels, decide if you want a thin laser or thicker workhorse, and if you want the weight balance at the pinch grip, or not. Handle material and length contribute to the balance and total weight.


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## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

Thanks. I‘m looking for more feedback on proportions at this point, things like choil, tang size, edge curvature, etc.
once I have a good profile, then I can move to grinding choices, steel, etc.


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## Barmoley (Nov 5, 2020)

I would make the neck slightly longer 16-18 mm. I would also make the heel taller 50-52 mm. The profile reminds me of Devin ITK.


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## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> I would make the neck slightly longer 16-18 mm. I would also make the heel taller 50-52 mm. The profile reminds me of Devin ITK.


Great, thanks a lot. what about the edge curvature?


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## McMan (Nov 5, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> I would make the neck slightly longer 16-18 mm. I would also make the heel taller 50-52 mm. The profile reminds me of Devin ITK.


+1 for these adjustments. Possibly even 55mm for height.
The bullnose is a matter of taste, and practically puts a very tiny amount more weight above/near the tip. I like a less tall tip. Also, from the drawing, it appears like the profile has a nice amount of flat spot. One thing here--it's key to have a little back belly to avoid the dreaded 'thud' from from a large flat spot. Buried in the forms somewhere is a picture where @Kippington masterfully describes the how/why of back belly.


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## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

McMan said:


> +1 for these adjustments. Possibly even 55mm for height.
> The bullnose is a matter of taste, and practically puts a very tiny amount more weight above/near the tip. I like a less tall tip. Also, from the drawing, it appears like the profile has a nice amount of flat spot. One thing here--it's key to have a little back belly to avoid the dreaded 'thud' from from a large flat spot. Buried in the forms somewhere is a picture where @Kippington masterfully describes the how/why of back belly.
> View attachment 101833



Great, thanks. 

This is a 210mm, is 50mm + heel not too tall ?

I’m only asking because the ones I saw online looked to be around 46mm.


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## Kippington (Nov 5, 2020)

Make the neck length roughly the thickness of the users middle finger, if you are making it a wa-handle.
I don't know if you did it on purpose, but your profile goes from flat spot to belly and to flat spot again at the tip. I personally wouldn't want that.
50mm is not too tall.

In all honesty... if this is your first knife, just make whatever. It will suck worse than you're imagining it will look like in your head. Pretty much everyone's first knife looks bad, like their first time cooking dinner. The exception is when people already have metalworking experience.


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## Barmoley (Nov 5, 2020)

Heli said:


> Great, thanks a lot. what about the edge curvature?


I agree with @McMan on back belly at the heel. Your profile will change if you increase the height at the heel. The edge profile looks fine from the drawing, but it is hard to tell without a straight line reference next to the edge. Some people like higher tip some like lower, preference really. Since this is a 210 I think what you have is fine, if it was a 240 I'd want the tip slightly lower and height at the heel closer to 55 mm. For a 210 though I like 50-52, again personal preference really.

This sort of shows how it would look on a flat surface, the bluish line is not horizontal, but once you make back belly it is parallel with the flat spot of this edge.


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## Kippington (Nov 5, 2020)




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## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

AWSOME guys, now we’re cooking with gas!

I’ll make the changes and report back. Again, thanks a lot for your help, really appreciated.


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## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

Kippington said:


> Make the neck length roughly the thickness of the users middle finger, if you are making it a wa-handle.
> I don't know if you did it on purpose, but your profile goes from flat spot to belly and to flat spot again at the tip. I personally wouldn't want that.
> 50mm is not too tall.
> 
> In all honesty... if this is your first knife, just make whatever. It will suck worse than you're imagining it will look like in your head. Pretty much everyone's first knife looks bad, like their first time cooking dinner. The exception is when people already have metalworking experience.



I only made a few knives up to this point, here are the last four I made that are a little better.

Nothing to write home about I know, not to mention I had no idea how little I knew about kitchen types knifes, until I discovered this site.

Here are some pics to get an idea of my current skill level, or better lack of, lol.


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## Kippington (Nov 5, 2020)

Ah my bad. Disregard what I said about your first knife then.


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## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

Kippington said:


> Ah my bad. Disregard what I said about your first knife then.



Ah, no problem Sir.

I’m here to learn and I appreciate your input a lot.

I’ve seen your work and your skill and knowledge is impressive!

Thanks again.


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## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

Kippington said:


> Make the neck length roughly the thickness of the users middle finger, if you are making it a wa-handle.
> I don't know if you did it on purpose, but your profile goes from flat spot to belly and to flat spot again at the tip. I personally wouldn't want that.
> 50mm is not too tall.
> 
> In all honesty... if this is your first knife, just make whatever. It will suck worse than you're imagining it will look like in your head. Pretty much everyone's first knife looks bad, like their first time cooking dinner. The exception is when people already have metalworking experience.



No, I screwed up on the edge. I used the spline in AutoCAD and I probably should have selected more points defining the curve, correct? Still learning.

thanks again.


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## Kippington (Nov 5, 2020)

Heli said:


> No, I screwed up on the edge. I used the spline in AutoCAD and I probably should have selected more points defining the curve, correct?
> 
> thanks again.


I can't help you with AutoCAD or any other design program. I don't use them for knife-making.


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## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

Kippington said:


> I can't help you with AutoCAD or any other design program. I don't use them for knife-making.


No worries, thank you. I should not have asked the question anyway, really unrelated, my bad. I'll try and focus from now, lol.


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## M1k3 (Nov 5, 2020)

You had me at Machi


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## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> You had me at Machi



You are way too astute man, if I understand you correctly. Now that you've mentioned it, I can see that.

I worked on this design after I finished a tanto. So I suppose I carried the ha and mune machi into the Gyuto, I guess.

If this is not what you meant, then it went over my head, sorry.

Cheers.


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## M1k3 (Nov 5, 2020)

Heli said:


> You are way too astute man, if I understand you correctly. Now that you've mentioned it, I can see that.
> 
> I worked on this design after I finished a tanto. So I suppose I carried the ha and mune machi into the Gyuto, I guess.
> 
> ...


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## Heli (Nov 5, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 101853



LOL !!!


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## kbright (Nov 6, 2020)

Heli said:


> I only made a few knives up to this point, here are the last four I made that are a little better.
> 
> Nothing to write home about I know, not to mention I had no idea how little I knew about kitchen types knifes, until I discovered this site.
> 
> ...



@Heli I really like the spalted wood on some of your handles.


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## Heli (Nov 6, 2020)

kbright said:


> @Heli I really like the spalted wood on some of your handles.


Thank you. I finish the wood with CA glue, to make it waterproof and fill the pores. Feels really smooth once sanded over. Good for the kitchen.


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## Heli (Nov 7, 2020)

Heli said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is supposed to be a 210mm version.
> 
> ...



*Profile Update 1:*

So I've incorporated your feedback, hopefully didn't forget anything.

Please let me know what you think now.

One exception, because of my LN dewar's mouth opening, I can't insert a blade wider than 48mm, therefore I had to keep the blade height accordingly. This is regarding AEB-L.

By the way, what do you use for a container, for cryo to hold the LN, if you don't use the dewar to insert the blade into?






Thanks again.


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## Barmoley (Nov 7, 2020)

I liked the previous profile better. I like when the choil goes straight down not forward. The edge looks like it has too much curve for me on this one. I would like the tip to be lower and the edge flatter.

The problem is that these designs by comity never work well since there are many opinions. Decide what looks good to you and what you like. I like your original profile much better.


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## Heli (Nov 7, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> I liked the previous profile better. I like when the choil goes straight down not forward. The edge looks like it has too much curve for me on this one. I would like the tip to be lower and the edge flatter.
> 
> The problem is that these designs by comity never work well since there are many opinions. Decide what looks good to you and what you like. I like your original profile much better.



I agree on both counts. I was also questioning the edge being now too curved, but wanted to hear other’s opinion.

In order to flatten the edge, I could only flatten the curve and keep the point where it is, or lower the point which will force a flatter curve, which I think is your preference, correct?

Would it be correct to say that the point should be generally lower than the center blade axis ?

thanks again.


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## Heli (Nov 7, 2020)

@Kippington, @McMan , what‘s your opinion on the edge curvature and point location, edge too curvy, point too high?

thanks in advance.


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## Heli (Nov 7, 2020)

Of course anybody else please feel free to share your opinion, thanks.


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## M1k3 (Nov 7, 2020)

Rambling thoughts on gyuto profiles


I've been in a few conversations with people about gyuto profiles, and I've come to the conclusion that I envisage this topic slightly differently from most others. Perhaps my way of thinking is more efficient, or maybe not. I'd like to find out so please feel free to chime in with your...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## McMan (Nov 7, 2020)

Heli said:


> @Kippington, @McMan , what‘s your opinion on the edge curvature and point location, edge too curvy, point too high?
> 
> thanks in advance.


FIFY 

@Kippington has forgotten more about knife profiles than I'll ever know! I cut onions and potatoes, that dude makes some of the most user-oriented detail-oriented knives in the game. TBH, my recommendation would be to just spend a week or two reading all of Kippington's threads and then try some stuff out. Maybe even use some of his threads as a sort of manual. Then report back. This way, you'll have a practical basis for some follow-up questions and can use the knife you made as an example. Keep in mind, you're already past me--I've never made a knife in my life.

As to the new profile... I agree with @Barmoley 100%. I prefer the old profile. Plus, the new profile looks like a Wusthof 

If you wanted to get fancy, you could add a very slight "S" to the choil. I like these--Halcyon Forge knives have this. Not big like the finger notch on a TF, but just a very subtle "S". This rounds the heel a little, too, which I like since it prevents the heel from digging into the board/catching a towel/etc. I take the tip of the heel off most of the knives I use a lot.


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## Kippington (Nov 7, 2020)

You gotta clean your curves up and fix some angles. Start with the curve that represents the edge and work around it, placing everything else where it needs to be in relation to the edge.
There's actually a line that's not doing anything in the following picture, so it's even simpler than this...


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## ian (Nov 7, 2020)

Kipp’s profile looks nice. Your original one looked weird because it was kinda flat right at the tip. Otherwise it was just fine, although maybe the bit of back belly was a good idea, idk.


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## Heli (Nov 7, 2020)

McMan said:


> FIFY
> 
> @Kippington has forgotten more about knife profiles than I'll ever know! I cut onions and potatoes, that dude makes some of the most user-oriented detail-oriented knives in the game. TBH, my recommendation would be to just spend a week or two reading all of Kippington's threads and then try some stuff out. Maybe even use some of his threads as a sort of manual. Then report back. This way, you'll have a practical basis for some follow-up questions and can use the knife you made as an example. Keep in mind, you're already past me--I've never made a knife in my life.
> 
> ...



It is nice to hear all opinions. 

Can’t beat the experience and insight of people who are using knives professionally, on a daily basis. So thank you!


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## Heli (Nov 7, 2020)

Kippington said:


> You gotta clean your curves up and fix some angles. Start with the curve that represents the edge and work around it, placing everything else where it needs to be in relation to the edge.
> There's actually a line that's not doing anything in the following picture, so it's even simpler than this...



WOW, the profile looks awesome. I wonder how did you come up with the curve for the tip for example and the edge as well. i wonder if you chose the point location in relation to the heel and the blade width at the heal. Then maybe after that you work on the curves. I’ll keep looking at it, see what I can figure.

thanks a lot, really appreciate.


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## McMan (Nov 7, 2020)

Heli said:


> It is nice to hear all opinions.
> 
> Can’t beat the experience and insight of people who are using knives professionally, on a daily basis. So thank you!


FIFY
I haven't been a pro for a long, long time


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## Heli (Nov 11, 2020)

Hi,

Here is what I got based on @Kippington input above. I may not have understood all the nuances, but this is what I have.

Please let me know if this is better and any other concerns you may have.

By the way @Kippington, I tried to scale your drawing and it looks like a 240mm with a 50mm height. I had to adjust some angles to keep the edge kind of the same but increase overall height at heel.

Thanks in advance.


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## Heli (Nov 11, 2020)

Just a sec...


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## ian (Nov 11, 2020)

That looks pretty nice. Start making it.


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## Kippington (Nov 11, 2020)

What Ian said above. That's a start.


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## Heli (Nov 11, 2020)

Ok, thank you.


Kippington said:


> What Ian said above. That's a start.



Ok, so “That's a start” doesn’t sound that great.

Where did I screwed up again, please?

thanks.


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## M1k3 (Nov 11, 2020)

Heli said:


> Ok, thank you.
> 
> 
> Ok, so “That's a start” doesn’t sound that great.
> ...


It's a drawing?


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## ian (Nov 11, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> It's a drawing?



I just tried to cut with it. Impressively thin grind, but 2/10 overall performance.


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## M1k3 (Nov 11, 2020)

ian said:


> I just tried to cut with it. Impressively thin grind, but 2/10 overall performance.


How's it do with wet produce?


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## Heli (Nov 11, 2020)

Ok, alright. Just wanted to know if the profile was right guys. One step at the time...

thanks.


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## Heli (Nov 11, 2020)

ian said:


> I just tried to cut with it. Impressively thin grind, but 2/10 overall performance.


The subject is about the profile, thanks again.


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## M1k3 (Nov 11, 2020)

Heli said:


> Ok, alright. Just wanted to know if the profile was right guys. One step at the time...
> 
> thanks.


Looks pretty good. Now to put it to metal. Good luck and best wishes!


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## ian (Nov 11, 2020)

Heli said:


> The subject is about the profile, thanks again.



Apologies for the joke about a knife made out of paper. Good luck!


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## Heli (Nov 11, 2020)

Thanks to all especially @Kippington for the profile design help.

Again, thanks to all for their input, really appreciated.


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## JDC (Nov 12, 2020)

I just noticed that the original profile is awfully similar to my morihei TF 210...




This profile actually cuts great for my usage (push-pull/chop), I'm able to enjoy the full length of the edge instead of just a portion of it (the countertop is slightly low for my height).


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## Heli (Nov 12, 2020)

JDC said:


> I just noticed that the original profile is awfully similar to my morihei TF 210...View attachment 102690
> 
> 
> This profile actually cuts great for my usage (push-pull/chop), I'm able to enjoy the full length of the edge instead of just a portion of it (the countertop is slightly low for my height).


Good to know, thanks.


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## RDalman (Nov 13, 2020)

Heli said:


> Good to know, thanks.


the design looks good now. what I think they're teasing about is it can be a challenge to end up there if you're pushing a thin edged grind and so. So keep track on your profile during and adjust along the way. Get used to how a good profile should feel when rocking it on a flat bench, then you can quickly catch any oddities during making. Edge profile is tricky to draw on computer like this ime, as it's like a bezier/french curve. one example, for me the slight "back belly" is never a part of my templates but gets there during grinding. Usually naturally by chasing edge thickness down and slightly "overgrinding" the heel, then smoothing it in.


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## Heli (Nov 13, 2020)

RDalman said:


> the design looks good now. what I think they're teasing about is it can be a challenge to end up there if you're pushing a thin edged grind and so. So keep track on your profile during and adjust along the way. Get used to how a good profile should feel when rocking it on a flat bench, then you can quickly catch any oddities during making. Edge profile is tricky to draw on computer like this ime, as it's like a bezier/french curve. one example, for me the slight "back belly" is never a part of my templates but gets there during grinding. Usually naturally by chasing edge thickness down and slightly "overgrinding" the heel, then smoothing it in.



Great feedback and excellent points to help me along the way.

Thanks again.


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## Heli (Nov 16, 2020)

Hi again,

I decided to first make an 180mm, just "easier" I guess, plus it is a good enough length for my day to day kitchen.

Here is a "finalized", you let me know profile wise, based on the 210mm profile version approved earlier, keeping the same heel height.

Some changes had to be made to accommodate for the shorter blade.

This is made out of A2, HT-ed at 62 HRC.

Next, distal taper followed by bevels. The spine now is at 3/32".






Your comments are welcomed.

Thanks again.


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## JDC (Nov 16, 2020)

Heli said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I decided to first make an 180mm, just "easier" I guess, plus it is a good enough length for my day to day kitchen.
> 
> ...



Looks sexy! Only thing is a smaller knife may not need to be this slanted in profile, a little flatter might be enough. You can try it on a board already to check your preference before moving forward.


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## Heli (Nov 16, 2020)

JDC said:


> Looks sexy! Only thing is a smaller knife may not need to be this slanted in profile, a little flatter might be enough. You can try it on a board already to check your preference before moving forward.



Thank you! 

I tried to keep a high heel as i was advised, maybe I have misunderstood it ?


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## McMan (Nov 16, 2020)

Heli said:


> Hi again,
> 
> I decided to first make an 180mm, just "easier" I guess, plus it is a good enough length for my day to day kitchen.
> 
> ...


To my eye, it looks like a bit of back belly could help. Something to consider?:


RDalman said:


> Get used to how a good profile should feel when rocking it on a flat bench, then you can quickly catch any oddities during making. Edge profile is tricky to draw on computer like this ime, as it's like a bezier/french curve. *one example, for me the slight "back belly"* is never a part of my templates but *gets there during grinding*. Usually naturally by chasing edge thickness down and slightly "overgrinding" the heel, then smoothing it in.


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## Heli (Nov 16, 2020)

McMan said:


> To my eye, it looks like a bit of back belly could help. Something to consider?:


 Agreed, it is there, maybe not showed in the pic, I'll make sure it will be there once the bevels are completed.

Thanks.


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## Barmoley (Nov 16, 2020)

Looks good. Agree with @McMan, but you basically just need to try and see. With shorter blades edge profile that is optimal is different from longer blades. I wouldn't necessarily make it flatter as shorter blades work better with curvier edge profiles in my experience, but maybe a little more curve at the back could help. Some of this was mentioned here. Bottom line, try it on the board and you'll see what adjustments need to be made.

I've actually been looking for something similar for a friend.


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## ModRQC (Nov 16, 2020)

I notice you're in Canada. If you ever want to pass around for a try I'll be delighted to use and review. I like your new profile. That said, I didn't dislike the very first at all. Back belly will help if you go as tall as it was suggested - and I agree to love a 210mm in between 48-52mm tall. Back belly I think is less important under 50mm, profile "corrects itself" if you like with most knives that don't carry one - in the sense that the heels on those is usually not pointing down so much that they break the flow in cutting.


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## Heli (Nov 16, 2020)

Great, thanks again guys!


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## Heli (Nov 16, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> I notice you're in Canada. If you ever want to pass around for a try I'll be delighted to use and review. I like your new profile. That said, I didn't dislike the very first at all. Back belly will help if you go as tall as it was suggested - and I agree to love a 210mm in between 48-52mm tall. Back belly I think is less important under 50mm, profile "corrects itself" if you like with most knives that don't carry one - in the sense that the heels on those is usually not pointing down so much that they break the flow in cutting.


Great, let you know, thanks.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Nov 16, 2020)

No fair, I want in too! @Heli if there's a CONUS passaround I would love to try it out.


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## ModRQC (Nov 16, 2020)

I was not trying to be unfair. I proposed this lightly without ever thinking @Heli would oblige. That said I’d be honored it’s real good work he showed, and the final upcoming profile seems righteous.


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## Heli (Nov 17, 2020)

Thanks guys, you’re giving me too much credit, the profile is a direct reflection of the help received on this forum.
And I would be honoured to pass it around for hands on feedback. 
Let me finish it first, still ways to go. I will keep you posted on progress.

Thanks again.


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## ModRQC (Nov 17, 2020)

Thank you for sharing your work. 

Best of luck with the work ahead and be well.


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## Heli (Nov 17, 2020)

Another question please, where should the balance be?

thanks.


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## ModRQC (Nov 17, 2020)

On a 210mm I've found between +10 and +20mm works best. That's from the heel forward, depending on neck length to a certain level - the more neck the less forward from the heel not to feel overbalanced.


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## Heli (Nov 17, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> On a 210mm I've found between +10 and +20mm works best. That's from the heel forward, depending on neck length to a certain level - the more neck the less forward from the heel not to feel overbalanced.


Great, thank you!


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## Barmoley (Nov 17, 2020)

On a 180, neutral, at the heel, is good as getting blade forward is tough, limits the handle size and material a lot. On 240+ I like ~ 35-40 mm from the handle where neck is around 16-17 mm long. Many people like right at the pinch. I strongly dislike handle heavy. All personal preference, but if you want most people to like it, needs to be neutral to slightly blade forward. Your grind, length, width handle size, material will all determine where balance is. Balance is tough..... most people can adjust though, but some knives just feel right when you hold and use them.


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## ModRQC (Nov 17, 2020)

Or, since my opinion is irrelevant to you on macroscopic level, let me put it this way:

210mm - Yo handle : most knives I tried neutral balance. It works, but even better are the rare ones with slightly longer neck space and slightly forward balance - more comfortable and adjustable grip, more space for fingers.

210mm - Wa handle: most knives have around +15mm forward and it’s perfect this way.

240mm - Wa handle: most knives are around +40mm forward and it also works very well.


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## Heli (Nov 17, 2020)

AWSOME, thanks again guys!


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## ModRQC (Nov 17, 2020)

I also whole heartedly support @Barmoley in that a 180mm unit should be about neutral so a natural pinch benefits from the whole length/flat spot. Try to avoid any back belly with shorter blades - I’d want the heel just in front of my pinch grip, feeling slightly blade heavy, and I’d want full length forward usable. It’s my personal choice then to round the heel if I feel it’s necessary.


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## Heli (Dec 12, 2020)

Hi,

Just wanted to follow up and close the loop on this build.

I have experimented with and learned a few things along the way. I kept things simple and utilitarian, e.g. handle and overall blade finish. I will make a better one next time around.

My wife asked if she could have it, so it is now in our kitchen. 

This is good since I want to see how it performs and tweak as necessary.

I haven’t forgot or ignored that I agreed to send it for some testing by some of you, but I think a new one will be a better knife. I will keep my promise, just want to put out a better knife.

Thanks again for your great feedback along the way, really appreciate


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## ModRQC (Dec 12, 2020)

You don’t owe anybody anything but I’m glad to see the final knife - nice work bravo! And of course it should end in your own kitchen


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## Heli (Dec 13, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> You don’t owe anybody anything but I’m glad to see the final knife - nice work bravo! And of course it should end in your own kitchen



Maybe it didn’t came out right, but what I wanted to say was that the reason I’m not sending this knife out for review is because I want to make a better one for that.

I’m still experimenting and learning at this stage. In other words I want to send out for review a knife that I will be proud of, but I’m not there yet.

Thanks again,


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## RDalman (Dec 14, 2020)

Cool to see someone starting out on the really thin side! Good work you spent some time on the finish grinding. 

And just a sidenote, I have yet to be fully happy with a knife, I think it might not be supposed to happen


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## Heli (Dec 14, 2020)

RDalman said:


> Cool to see someone starting out on the really thin side! Good work you spent some time on the finish grinding.
> 
> And just a sidenote, I have yet to be fully happy with a knife, I think it might not be supposed to happen



Thank you.

It is the thinnest knife I ever made. I am pleasantly surprised how well it cuts.

I agree, there is always, “I can do it better next time!”


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## M1k3 (Dec 14, 2020)

RDalman said:


> Cool to see someone starting out on the really thin side! Good work you spent some time on the finish grinding.
> 
> And just a sidenote, I have yet to be fully happy with a knife, I think it might not be supposed to happen


I think most things are like that. I definitely do that as a cook.


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## Jovidah (Dec 14, 2020)

Must be what my parents said.


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## Dave Martell (Dec 14, 2020)

The original design looks best to me.


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## Heli (Dec 15, 2020)

Forgot to mention, the blade is 190mm and total knife weight is 85g, all ready to use.

Is this on the very light side of the spectrum?

and the balance point:



please comment.


Thanks again,


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## ModRQC (Dec 15, 2020)

For length it's pretty light - most 150mm J petty for example are around that ballpark.


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## RDalman (Dec 15, 2020)

Heli said:


> Forgot to mention, the blade is 190mm and total knife weight is 85g, all ready to use.
> 
> Is this on the very light side of the spectrum?
> 
> Thanks again,


Yes that's superthin. I made some 185x60 gyutos recently that came out 200g. Pettys 120 g.


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## Heli (Dec 15, 2020)

You guys are too fast, LOL, I edited the post in between, see above for balance point.


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## ModRQC (Dec 15, 2020)

Balance ideally more backward for shorter blades, as we had covered when you first posted your query. It allows to grip just behind balance point with still most of the blade forward the grip. But it's really in using it that you might, or might not, see this for yourself.


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## Heli (Dec 15, 2020)

RDalman said:


> Yes that's superthin. I made some 185x60 gyutos recently that came out 200g. Pettys 120 g.



I admit, I wanted to experiment with what happens during grinding while going thin, which was a pretty cool experience for me.

So, in conclusion, I shouldn’t go this far in terms of the resulting weight, correct?

I assume chefs want more weight to the knife to assist with cutting?

Funny, to the uninitiated me, it felt pretty good, but I don’t have anything to compare to and just use a knife for short periods of time, home cook. My wife really loves it and now she wants me to make her a set, but again we’re not professionals or even versed in the art of cooking.

Chefs, please comment what you prefer in terms of a knife weigh.

Thanks again,


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## Heli (Dec 15, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Balance ideally more backward for shorter blades, as we had covered when you first posted your query. It allows to grip just behind balance point with still most of the blade forward the grip. But it's really in using it that you might, or might not, see this for yourself.



Looks like I misunderstood what a shorter blade was and my fault that I generalized thinking that a more blade heavy balance was optimal.

Is there a rule in terms of length on when to move from blade to handle bias weight? Is 190 mm supposed to be handle heavy, as in balance rear of the pinch grip?

I apologize if I missed that as well.

thanks again,

EDIT:

I see above where you mentioned that for a 210mm, the perfect balance is 15mm forward.

That’s what I went with and i thought 180-190 mm would follow suite, my bad if this is not the case.


thanks,


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## Heli (Dec 15, 2020)

Dave Martell said:


> The original design looks best to me.



I agree, i personally like more nose there as well, no particular reason, just aesthetics in my eyes. Well, maybe it has also to do with the fact that on longer blades it helps to balance the knife. Just a thought, I could be wrong.

thanks,


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## Heli (Dec 15, 2020)

Again, great conversation in my opinion, may be boring for some of you and I apologize for that.

I encourage your participation, brings out great point of views, not to mention it teaches me a lot.

thanks again,


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## ModRQC (Dec 15, 2020)

Never handle heavy, neutral or forward works better.

lightweight: 100-140g for 210mm
Midweight: 140-180g for 210mm
Heavyweight: beyond

Just a ballpark. There’s no ultimate rule to what fits best to someone, but general trend is midweight-heavyweight and neutral-slightly forward on 210 and shorter, more forward still when longer. 30-40mm forward the heel is the usual ballpark for 240mm.

As a maker in a first time you need to take a stand as to what you think fits YOUR knife best; eventually, to listen and adjust to your customer base feedback.


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## RDalman (Dec 15, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Never handle heavy, neutral or forward works better.
> 
> lightweight: 100-140g for 210mm
> Midweight: 140-180g for 210mm
> ...


Yes.. And it's ok to change preferences over time too


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## ModRQC (Dec 15, 2020)

RDalman said:


> Yes.. And it's ok to change preferences over time too



Doing so eventually leading to KKF massdrop of RD's Honyakis... a chain of events that cannot be undone.


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## captaincaed (Dec 15, 2020)

Heli said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just wanted to follow up and close the loop on this build.
> 
> ...


Nice work, always satisfying to see a project go to completion. 
That is a super light knife, must be a real laser. Throw up a video cutting with it, show off a bit!


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## Heli (Dec 15, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Never handle heavy, neutral or forward works better.
> 
> lightweight: 100-140g for 210mm
> Midweight: 140-180g for 210mm
> ...




Thanks again, I appreciate your feedback and everybody’s else.

I like the categorization in terms of weight in relation to length figures, excellent!

I’m working on defining my own interpretation based on what I have learned, it will show in my next build and I plan to share it once completed.


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## Heli (Dec 15, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> Nice work, always satisfying to see a project go to completion.
> That is a super light knife, must be a real laser. Throw up a video cutting with it, show off a bit!



Thank you, I appreciate your encouragement. Yes, looks like it is a really light knife based on the received feedback.

Is there a cutting test I should do?

Let me make another one or two knifes and I will make a comparison video on their progression. I have some ideas I’d like to implement and test.


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## ModRQC (Dec 15, 2020)

Heli said:


> Thanks again, I appreciate your feedback and everybody’s else.
> 
> I like the categorization in terms of weight in relation to length figures, excellent!
> 
> I’m working on defining my own interpretation based on what I have learned, it will show in my next build and I plan to share it once completed.



Add like 20-30g to each range for a ballpark for 240mm. 

I think many KKF members would argue that heavyweight really starts above 200g, but that would fit with the fact that many KKF members prefer 240mm Gyutos. Figures aren't so important as the general idea though. I personally find 150g for a 210mm is still pretty lightweight. But my figures were based more on averaging all the J-Knives I shopped or own(ed) and how to best describe the distribution of weight from there. .

Have fun with the next one!


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## Heli (Dec 15, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Add like 20-30g to each range for a ballpark for 240mm.
> 
> I think many KKF members would argue that heavyweight really starts above 200g, but that would fit with the fact that many KKF members prefer 240mm Gyutos. Figures aren't so important as the general idea though. I personally find 150g for a 210mm is still pretty lightweight. But my figures were based more on averaging all the J-Knives I shopped or own(ed) and how to best describe the distribution of weight from there. .
> 
> Have fun with the next one!


Great, thanks again!


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## ModRQC (Dec 15, 2020)

Thanks to you to share with us. I didn't mean to be mean by any of it - saying we had covered a point already was not a blame, more of a reminder that more experienced users than myself had contributed to this question earlier in the post. @Barmoley was the one to bring up first that real blade heavy for shorter lengths is not ideal.


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## captaincaed (Dec 15, 2020)

Heli said:


> Thank you, I appreciate your encouragement. Yes, looks like it is a really light knife based on the received feedback.
> 
> Is there a cutting test I should do?
> 
> Let me make another one or two knifes and I will make a comparison video on their progression. I have some ideas I’d like to implement and test.


For a home cook, I think apples, carrots, potatoes ans tomatoes represent the four horsemen that bedevil knives.
Carrots for cutting vs cracking, potatoes from r food release, tomatoes for skin puncture/sharpness, and apples for some combo of all three.

I'm not sure what dish you make with those.... That's a problem for iron chef. Salad and mashed taters?

Edit: and yes sweet potatoes are a nice task too.


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## Jovidah (Dec 16, 2020)

Sweet potatoes are another one you could add to the testing list that often distinguishes the boys from the men when it comes to knives. 
If the knife is for yourself I'd say... cut foods you normally want to cut.  No point trying to optimize it for stuff you don't eat, unless you're planning to eventually make knives for other people.


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## Heli (Dec 16, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Thanks to you to share with us. I didn't mean to be mean by any of it - saying we had covered a point already was not a blame, more of a reminder that more experienced users than myself had contributed to this question earlier in the post. @Barmoley was the one to bring up first that real blade heavy for shorter lengths is not ideal.


No offense taken, thank you.


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## Barmoley (Dec 16, 2020)

Weight and especially balance are all personal preference. As long as it works for you it is all good. Sounds like your wife likes it a lot and that matters a lot more than whatever some people on the internet tell you.


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## Jovidah (Dec 16, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Weight and especially balance are all personal preference. As long as it works for you it is all good. Sounds like your wife likes it a lot and that matters a lot more than whatever some people on the internet tell you.


I think if I ever tried my hand on some knifemaking myself, this would be my main motivation: try to make something myself that's just right for me and whatever weird preferences I might have. It gives you the option to experiment and dial in on your preferences and truly fully finetune something to your own liking.


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## Heli (Dec 17, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> On a 180, neutral, at the heel, is good as getting blade forward is tough, limits the handle size and material a lot.



So if I understand you correctly from the sentence above, ideally you would still want a blade forward balance if not limited by handle material weight, correct?

Or do people prefer the balance at pinch grip with 180mm blades?

If not limited by anything, what most people prefer, what is most desirable. I understand that some things are preference, but what does the majority find “feeling just right”.

EDIT: For example I achieved a blade forward balance, purposely.

Thanks again,


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## Barmoley (Dec 17, 2020)

You are right, my statement was mostly due to forward balance being difficult on shorter blades. You achieved it so no issue in your case, but you are still somewhat limited to handle size, material and construction. In general I prefer forward balance on any knife I use on a board, but I tend to hold shorter knives differently. For example on 220+ I use a deep pinch grip, but on shorter blades I still use pinch grip but pinching the neck more. This makes the blade feel longer, but also changes perceived balance and so balance around the heel works for these for me. With a shorter blade if I pinch deep I loose too much of the edge and also usually the perceived balance becomes too handle biased. I also mostly use different length blades for different tasks, so that also plays a role.

Basically, I think most prefer balance at pinch or slightly forward of it for general purpose gyutos of different lengths, but depending on blade length and handle, neck, choil construction and the type of pinch the location of the pinch might be different.


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## Heli (Dec 17, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> In general I prefer forward balance on any knife I use on a board, but I tend to hold shorter knives differently. For example on 220+ I use a deep pinch grip, but on shorter blades I still use pinch grip but pinching the neck more. This makes the blade feel longer, but also changes perceived balance and so balance around the heel works for these for me. With a shorter blade if I pinch deep I loose too much of the edge and also usually the perceived balance becomes too handle biased. I also mostly use different length blades for different tasks, so that also plays a role.
> 
> Basically, I think most prefer balance at pinch or slightly forward of it for general purpose gyutos of different lengths, but depending on blade length and handle, neck, choil construction and the type of pinch the location of the pinch might be different.



Great, thanks again.

So if I understand this correctly, you are adjusting to what feels comfortable to you in terms of balance, very interesting. You are in fact then solving any balance issues in a particular knife by altering grip point so it achives your desire balance.

So in conclusion, the ideal balance is always a bit forward and when not possible at pinch grip as a worst case scenario, would this be a fair statement?

Thanks again,


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## Barmoley (Dec 17, 2020)

Heli said:


> Great, thanks again.
> 
> So if I understand this correctly, you are adjusting to what feels comfortable to you in terms of balance, very interesting. You are in fact then solving any balance issues in a particular knife by altering grip point so it achives your desire balance.
> 
> ...



For _*me *_forward of the pinch is ideal for anything used on the board. I can adjust to some degree, but I'd rather not since, for longer blades, I like pinch grip where my middle finger is against the choil. I'll reference @Kippington again since I agree with most of what he says even though my preference is slightly different. Balance point on a gyuto checkout the whole thread for some more preferences.


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## Heli (Dec 18, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> For _*me *_forward of the pinch is ideal for anything used on the board. I can adjust to some degree, but I'd rather not since, for longer blades, I like pinch grip where my middle finger is against the choil. I'll reference @Kippington again since I agree with most of what he says even though my preference is slightly different. Balance point on a gyuto checkout the whole thread for some more preferences.



Thanks again! Went through the post, that’s exactly what I was looking for.

Your preference is also in line with the majority.

From my limited experience, I also enjoy a balanced, if not slightly blade bias balance with a pinch grip.

I will look to archive this in my next builds and if say I would want to change the balance towards the handle, it would be just a matter of adjusting the handle weight.


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## stereo.pete (Dec 20, 2020)

@Heli would you mind sharing your workspace and tools? As someone who dabbles occasionally in blade craft, I'm always interested to see how other folks have their shops / tools set up. 

Cheers!


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## Heli (Dec 20, 2020)

Yes, no problem, I’ll take some pics.

In a nutshell, my basement is my shop... and more.

Thanks,


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## stereo.pete (Dec 20, 2020)

Heli said:


> Yes, no problem, I’ll take some pics.
> 
> In a nutshell, my basement is my shop... and more.
> 
> Thanks,



Thank you!


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## Heli (Dec 20, 2020)

As promised, here it is, @stereo.pete.

















yes, my QC employee.












Cheers,


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