# Understanding Limits



## maxim

I started to use Japanese Natural stones and rare knives because i wanted to know much more about them and wanted to share my knowlige.
Starting of JNS website was mostly dived by sharing knowlige about Natural stones and make them more available for reasonable prises to us western costumers 

But now with many bad events i started to doubt how much i really want to share  
I can see now how Dave struggled about it in old forum. You really want to be very open and share all info with people just to get take advantage of by other sellers or some that want to become a seller ! 

They try to take all the hard work you have done, for research, try 1000 of different solutions and spend 100 000th. off bucks. 

And sell all much cheaper by using my experience without using they own knowlige at all !! It is just example  

Also i get many questions from some of my costumers that i can not just answer anymore, like: where do you buy your stones ?? Where can i buy them in Japan when i go there ? where can i buy Shigefusa, is this stone 
from other seller good or bad, and many many more ...... I get them every day and now it seems like i have to be more and more careful of what i am saying.

Very sad and very bad for our community. Now i undestand how some people take money to log in to they website. I see also it is not only me that is more careful but many other Vendors on this forum and i now undestand them 100 % 

So please from now on *unfortunately* Understanding my Limits and what i want to share  

Also please make your comment here if you have some good ideas or advise !! :biggrin:


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## gentlecook

thx you for this message, im one of those pesky ))

There are those who need to share, and there are others..
Its logical and indeed correct

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sv5rl_rCu28#t=198s

sps


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## stevenStefano

Seems fair enough to me, a lot of things to do with knives are pretty secretive


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## Crothcipt

I have noticed in the past some stuff that I would assume would be prietary had been shared. Also if someone would ask me were they can get stones while in Japan, would make me irate. That is like me asking Devin Thomas what his ht cycle is. He is a very nice guy, and I am sure would steer you in a certain direction. But that is a big NO NO.

I myself like what you have to offer here and hope you do so. I know I haven't bought anything from you but I keep looking and reading and know when I do get to that spot I know were I am going, and I know I am not the only one that thinks that way. It only takes a few to steel your business so you have to do what you have to.


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## mainaman

IMO general information shared for everyone is good, specifics should not be shared, there is such thing as secrets of the trade.


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## apicius9

Makes perfect sense to me, I have been struggling with that a lot for a while, especially in the first few years. I am all for helping out, but I also understand all about spending a lot of time and money on trial and error and people saving all this by getting the information. At that time it was only the hobby for me and I just wanted to break even (which may actually happen for the first time this year, yay!), but if this is a major part of your livelihood and your income, it becomes even more problematic. Setting limits makes perfect sense and is very legitimate IMHO. Now, making handles is not rocket science, but some tricks and shortcuts, infos about sources or pricing, and years of experience can be valuable and worth protecting for anyone who is making anything here a business, be it knives, handles, or stones.

:my2cents:

Stefan


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## kalaeb

I can't blame you one bit.


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## jmforge

This is actually a bit new for me in the knifey world. I come from the ABS side where people share to a degree that some might consider to be a fault. Some would argue that the ABS has, in fact, succeeded in its sole mission of preserving the art of the forged blade. Others might argue that is has succeeded too well as we now have too many knife makers.:lol2:


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## ecchef

Business is business and you gotta do what you gotta do. :bat: I totally respect your decisions Maxim. Keep up the good work!


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## tk59

I don't blame you in the slightest.


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## maxim

The problem is that i really want to share  And sometimes its super difficult to answer or explane things without do some secret reviling.


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## quantumcloud509

I feel your pain...been in this situation myself...sometimes you just have to cut people off.


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## scotchef38

maxim said:


> I started to use Japanese Natural stones and rare knives because i wanted to know much more about them and wanted to share my knowlige.
> Starting of JNS website was mostly dived by sharing knowlige about Natural stones and make them more available for reasonable prises to us western costumers
> 
> But now with many bad events i started to doubt how much i really want to share
> I can see now how Dave struggled about it in old forum. You really want to be very open and share all info with people just to get take advantage of by other sellers or some that want to become a seller !
> 
> They try to take all the hard work you have done, for research, try 1000 of different solutions and spend 100 000th. off bucks.
> 
> And sell all much cheaper by using my experience without using they own knowlige at all !! It is just example
> 
> Also i get many questions from some of my costumers that i can not just answer anymore, like: where do you buy your stones ?? Where can i buy them in Japan when i go there ? where can i buy Shigefusa, is this stone
> from other seller good or bad, and many many more ...... I get them every day and now it seems like i have to be more and more careful of what i am saying.
> 
> Very sad and very bad for our community. Now i undestand how some people take money to log in to they website. I see also it is not only me that is more careful but many other Vendors on this forum and i now undestand them 100 %
> 
> So please from now on *unfortunately* Understanding my Limits and what i want to share
> 
> Also please make your comment here if you have some good ideas or advise !! :biggrin:


Hi, as a chef instructor I can entirely empathise with your predicament. Can I suggest a positive outcome may be to publish a book?


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## JBroida

Maxim-
I feel very much in the same boat. When i started this business, my goal was to share as much as possible, help bring the craftsmen to the front, teach about what makes knives great, etc. Sadly, it seems that in the real world, that kind of view is naive. I still try to share as much as possible. However, a very small portion of people take advantage of this in a way that makes it impossible for us to continue in that manner. It really sucks. The worst part is that its really just a small number of people, but it kind of messes it up for everyone.

Thank you for starting this thread.

I hope this doesnt come across in the wrong way.

Maxim and I have talked in the past about how there is already an unwritten code of conduct among vendors, but sometimes we wish there was one for customers too.

-Jon


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## Eric

Maxim: you are one of the most open and knowledgable persons I have met on these forums. I have benefitted greatly from your advice and it has encouraged me to do business with you (to the detriment of my bank account!). However, you need to protect your business interests, and really don't have to explain, in my opinion, your choice. It is unfortunate that some might use your hard work to benefit themselves at your expense. Most on this forum would not, but seems that you have experienced this, albeit maybe not from members. I support you and your business and thank you for making natural stones and knives like shigefusa and kato available. My feeling is that knowledge shared on this forum is only for personal edification and ther is an implicit understanding not to take advantage of this gift or use it to the detriment of those sharing it. I wish you well.


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## Burl Source

I think there is a fine line between what information you should share and what you should keep to yourself.
A certain amount of info is necessary to create an educated customer which helps to generate more sales and to justify the cost for different items.
But......
When it comes to your wholesale sources that is not something you share.

In the end I think it is best to go by your gut feelings.
If it feels like someone is trying to take advantage of you, don't go out of your way.
There are a lot of people on the internet who behave as if you owe them whatever they want to know.
But there are also a lot of great people as well.
Sometimes the hard part is sorting out which is which.


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## JBroida

very much so


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## mpukas

Don't ever give away the farm


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## maxim

Thanks guys  I forgot to mansion that there is 99 % of my costumers and just forum members here that suport me a lot ! 

And i am very happy about it ! 
Just need to take some measures to protect my work. But i will still try to be as open as posible on how to use things and plenty of more videos and info will be added to my website next year


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## franzb69

in my short stint as a business owner in the car audio world, i had the same problem. trying to learn as much and share as much as i can of what i have learned. i had gotten into the same roadblocks when i shared a little too much of what i learned to people who were close to me. when i entered in to the culinary world, i felt the same way but also got into the same problems as you have in certain things. i have a great appreciation for people who would want to share and want to help his fellow man. and yes there are those people that just love to ruin the whole experience for everyone. it's just wrong, but such is life and such is business. 

guess there are just some things that one has to hold back in order to "keep himself afloat"

good luck to those who think like you and i respect you for what you do and what you represent. you guys are good people. =D


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## El Pescador

There's a reason they call it "Secret Sauce"


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## maxim

So i will bump this one up as many have wondered why i have done this and i have now perfect example why ! 

I cary many super rare items in my store and many of them is super hard to get even in Japan, so i really work hard to get them and do a lot of research, you cant imagine how much time i spend every day on computer, skype, phone etc. just to search for many of my things. 

Recently some vendors got bit envy because i can get thigs faster then them and things that they can not get. And contacted supplier(s) and said they will not deal with them if they continue to sell to me :stinker:
So now even some of my products i have to keep secret  

Of coarse because i am small vendor and i do not buy things by hundreds i can see why supply will lesson to them. And it will hurt supplier if they choose me rather then them.

Again no names or what products, just want to share among friends what sometimes happens and why we small businesses have to keep most of things tight


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## MadMel

perfectly reasonable IMHO


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## JBroida

yup... couldnt agree more and often find myself in the same boat


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## Patatas Bravas

I've noticed your recent visits to Japan on your sites and blogs and so also wonder if you both - JNS and JKI - do well because you also try hard to form and maintain good relationships with the makers? I don' t know if this affects your supply, but it should make you more favored by the makers which is a good thing.


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## Seth

Let us know if we can help.

Respectfully,
KKF Political Action Committee


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## Marko Tsourkan

Not the least unexpected.

I want to add that I have arrived at a similar conclusion a long time ago. Some things take a long time to arrive/discover/develop at, but often are very easy to copy. Sometimes it's a bad copy, but to a consumer it might not be evident. An example is a steel - a maker can use the same steel but with a mediocre heat treatment, yet for a new buyer, it might look like an attractive (less expensive) option over a maker who excels at heat treating that steel. So, it's better that some things stay unnamed (steels, stones, or whatever) and are judged solely by their qualities.

M


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## maxim

I think we have huge help from this forum and all members here ! 



Seth said:


> Let us know if we can help.
> 
> Respectfully,
> KKF Political Action Committee


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## Lefty

JBroida said:


> yup... couldnt agree more and often find myself in the same boat



Sounds pretty familiar for me, as well.


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## heirkb

If it means you guys need to share less in order to stay afloat, I'm sure a lot of members here would agree that it's more than worth it.


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## mzer

Eventually, customers benefit from more information rather than less, so it is a losing battle to try to contain it. It is understandable to try, but it is not reasonable to assume that your customers, as an entire group rather than a small supportive one, will be your accomplices in it. I wish you guys luck, though. Seriously, I do, but it is really hard to keep information like you are talking about proprietary.


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## Mrmnms

I find it extremely offensive that any vendor would demand that a supplier refuse to sell to an account solely on the basis of direct competition. I would love to know who that might be , but can only guess. I have been given information freely from a number of vendors here and although I hope to learn more about sharpening , re handling and knife making, I have no desire to take business from people so willing to help me. I vote with my wallet, buy from and refer as much business as I can, to vendors who have been gracious to me. Shopping out a vender to save a few dollars is disgraceful. 
I appraise rare coins and collectibles. I have learned to follow an old saying. Give away free wisdom, work and advice carefully. Some people with use that as a measure of your value and worth. I still do it , by choose wisely.


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## wilburh

mzer said:


> Eventually, customers benefit from more information rather than less, so it is a losing battle to try to contain it. It is understandable to try, but it is not reasonable to assume that your customers, as an entire group rather than a small supportive one, will be your accomplices in it. I wish you guys luck, though. Seriously, I do, but it is really hard to keep information like you are talking about proprietary.



I don't sell anything related to knives. My only qualification to respond is that I'm 63 years along and have seen a lot of what this post is about. The quoted post mirrors my thoughts. Try not to lose sight of the customer (potential customer). If I cut an onion in half using a Takeda AS, custom handled Kubla Khan I get two pieces. I get the same two pieces using a Rachel Ray from Ebay/Amazon. Convert one percent of those Rachel Ray customers and there will be enough for you and anybody else that wants to try his hand.


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## Eric

+1 to Seth


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## Dave Martell

If people within this community knew the extent that some retailers go to buy up supply and pressure suppliers not to deal with others they'd be blown away. Then there's all the other crap that gets pulled in the background regarding copying, price manipulation, market flooding, etc. This is no different than what is seen in all other free markets though, it's just part of the game. Yes it's a game, one that some will play with integrity and others with a lack of scruples.


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## kalaeb

Dave Martell said:


> If people within this community knew the extent that some retailers go to buy up supply and pressure suppliers not to deal with others they'd be blown away. Then there's all the other crap that gets pulled in the background regarding copying, price manipulation, market flooding, etc. This is no different than what is seen in all other free markets though, it's just part of the game. Yes it's a game, one that some will play with integrity and others with a lack of scruples.



True, definitely not specific to this industry. This is the world 10x over, in every country.


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## mhlee

Dave Martell said:


> If people within this community knew the extent that some retailers go to buy up supply and pressure suppliers not to deal with others they'd be blown away. Then there's all the other crap that gets pulled in the background regarding copying, price manipulation, market flooding, etc. This is no different than what is seen in all other free markets though, it's just part of the game. Yes it's a game, one that some will play with integrity and others with a lack of scruples.



And from what I observed, this is precisely how one one retailer in particular established itself.


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