# J-Nats - Value for money?



## OliverNuther (Sep 10, 2017)

I'm not into J-nats and not planning to start so this question is just out of curiosity but I was gobsmacked recently when I was browsing on a vendor site and saw the price of J-nats. Some were in the thousands of dollars, the dearest one I saw was about 
4000 AUD! I had no idea they were that dear. I'm not criticising the vendor or any vendor; I imagine the price is determined by the scarcity of the stone and supply and demand but what I'm curious about is what do you get for that sort of money? What does a $4000 stone give you that a different cheaper stone won't ? Do people really pay $4000 for 1 stone? I find that mind boggling. 

Again definitely no criticism intended of any vendor or anyone who does spend this sort of money on stones, I'm just trying to learn a bit more about the subject so any info would be appreciated. Oh, and use small words please; I find the whole world of J-nats rather bewildering.


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## KimBronnum (Sep 10, 2017)

Firstly there are many reasonably priced jnats. In my view they can be a better deal than synthetics in a value for money perspective. Koppas and medium stones are usually much cheaper than rare finishers. 
The very expensive stones are usually rate speciments of specific brands of stones: mostly Nakayamas and different suitas. 
For all practical purposes it is almost always possible to find a much cheaper stone. For collectors, however, it is about the rarety and such. And further some people just have that kind of money to spend. 
- Kim


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## OliverNuther (Sep 10, 2017)

Thanks Kim. 

I did note that the vast majority were much more reasonably priced. So the uber expensive ones are likely to be hoarded away and never used?


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## hambone.johnson (Sep 10, 2017)

as a gross generalization; the very expensive stones are also extremely hard, so even when they are used there is virtually no wear on them and they are (again a generalization) usually finishing stones so the time you would spend sharpening no them is also very little. Given that, the resale value can have almost no depreciation even if they are used and cared for well, which i would assume if you spend thousands on a stone you have the knowledge and skills to care for that stone. 

as Kim mentioned, Koppas can be a great way to accumulate stones of a variety without breaking an arm and leg. 

Also, i find, and it has been mentioned often by professionals and those with far more experience than myself, that synthetics are very good in anything sub 5k. there are a couple of good 5k's and there are a hoard of 2k/3k grit stones that are amazing performers that cost fractions of what a natural stone in the same range would cost. like a natural AOTO could run you 200+ but a green brick of love is like 70$ and will last forever and the synthetic green brick is consistent and a great performer.

But when you start to look at the very high grit finishing stones of 5k and up the synthetic stones start to fade. its complicated to explain but something about the natural stone will continue to make the edge "sharper" and more complex where as synthetics in the 8,10,15k range can feel slippery and they just dont feel like they continue to really refine the edge. that's one of a hundred reasons why people look for those high grit finishing stones and pay the $ for them. its hard to recreate what a really great j-nat finishing stone can do to an edge compared to a synthetic.


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## K813zra (Sep 10, 2017)

I may be the odd one out here but I much prefer my Naka-to stones to my Awase-to. Seriously, hands down it really is no question. They leave a more practical, to me, edge and are often times prettier and cheaper as well as being softer and having a better feel in use. Ara-to stones, not so much. While they feel better in use I don't think they are near as efficient as their finer counterparts not to mention synthetics. 

Background and preferences out of the way I do find J-nats to be of a fair value if you do as suggested above and look for deals. In that the stones are smaller or have a slightly odd shape. Though, I much prefer a smaller stone than an oddly shaped one. It isn't like you have to go tiny. Often times a stone that is 7.5x2.5(ish) will be 30-45% cheaper than an\ 8x3(ish) stone. A lot of savings for not a lot less stone! Want to save a little more money then maybe get one with a chip in the corner etc. 

I find them a good value for other reasons as well. As was already suggested, the tend to stay flat longer which means they wear slower. I find this true even with Naka-to stones, much but not all of the time. I like the cosmetic finish given by naturals better as well. They are more fun to use, for me, and smell good while doing so. They make good conversations pieces etc. Also, regardless of what some people think they do work just fine on carbon or stainless and even some PM steel. All of that and I have never spent more than $300 on a natural stone and for me half of that is the norm. 

Now, practically speaking my synthetic stones are more efficient all around regardless of being a mid grit or a finisher. They cut faster and more uniform and are easier or at least more straightforward to use. What I guess I mean to say is that naturals are 100% unnecessary, imo, but I rather enjoy collecting and using them anyway. I think if it is practicality you seek then naturals are not the route to take but that may not be true either. Some naturals are very practical synthetic replacements, for me. Igarashi, Aizu and Ohira suita for example. 

Having said that, I would not spend $4000 on one stone even if I was using some other fellas money! I might by 10 $400 stones, though. :rofl2: 

Just the random thoughts of a newer natural stone user.


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## gic (Sep 10, 2017)

And there are the thai natural stones which are very reasonably priced (there are many threads about them)...


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## Benuser (Sep 10, 2017)

... and Blue Belgian and coticule...


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## Krassi (Sep 10, 2017)

Well since most stones are sold like collectors items you have multipliers in the price.

is it fullsize 205x75mm? = then its much more expensive
is it thicker than 40mm = then its much more expensive
are all corners on top on the stone and its rectangular? = then its much more expensive
does it have fancy stamps that are of course useless? = then its much more expensive
does it come from a famous mine? = then its much more expensive
is it very clean without any lines that are mostly cosmetic? = then its much more expensive
is there a maruka stamp on it? = then its super duper wuper much more expensive for no reason )

I will try some thuringian green finishers in the future maybe.. in the area of finishers you often find better vintage stuff in europe than you will ever find from kyoto mines.
Some of my best stones are unknown stones or ugly bastard stones.. Well and its known that i "love to gamble" for my stones and i only bought 4 stones from a stoneseller... well the ao renge from watanabe is of course awesome! ) but looks like a midget next to my new one.


well whetstones are a crazy thing! every stone is unique and you will never be able to say "ok i have seen it all and i know everything" .. any new stone is a new experience even if you have 5 of the same mine allready 
a seller can guarantee you no gambling and chance of picking a bad stone! so without experience its nuts to just blindly buy something that you only saw on a picture.

soo TL/TR
you often dondt know why stone A is cheap and stone B ist super expensive.
But there are reasons and since they are collectors items its ok. But you often think "*** this piece of debris is XXX dollrars ..screeeeetccchhhiing of doom!"


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## dwalker (Sep 10, 2017)

Case in point. Here is a near fullsize stone from an unknown mine. It is covered in black renge and is immediately my favorite finisher for gyutos. It is crazy fast and leaves a incredibly toothy ~5k edge that seems to last forever. AFTER shipping from Japan, I have less than $60 in it. By the way, if anybody has any idea what it is, I would love to know so I can source more like it.


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## nevrknow (Sep 10, 2017)

dwalker said:


> Case in point. Here is a near fullsize stone from an unknown mine. It is covered in black renge and is immediately my favorite finisher for gyutos. It is crazy fast and leaves a incredibly toothy ~5k edge that seems to last forever. AFTER shipping from Japan, I have less than $60 in it. By the way, if anybody has any idea what it is, I would love to know so I can source more like it.



Wow. +1 on that stone. You find more put me on the list for one 

And as said above try the koppas. I have more koppas than full size stones. They work exactly the same. I could see if someone sharpened professionally may feel the need for full size. But sharpening for me is a hobby into itself therefore I do not NEED fullsize. May be easier for some people with a bigger stone but smaller ones do just as well. Plus you can try out cheaper koppas and when you hit that WOW factor in 1 certain stone THEN you can take out a mortgage or 2 and buy the full size stone.


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## Krassi (Sep 10, 2017)

Well there are tons of those and all.. the problem is to find the jewels 
Thats what i do for 3 years now and its super gambling..

well and i wouldnt look for koppas but for thin stones! koppas are mostly debris but thin ones are as good as thick stone.. its often that thin stones are very high quality because 1) they got used for many years 2) its easier to dig out a thin stone than a big 4-5cm stone from mining.. like with the production of processor chips or displays.

anything under 200x70mm do i regard as to small  .. holy crap this sounds stupid but i actually despise small stones as i only have big or super big ones.
but well 150x100mm is a awesome size and they are often cheap! you mostly dondt use the full 200mm on the stone..on my uchigumoris i would actually be ok with a super short one.

oh regarding this stone.. it does not look like typical ao renge. ao renge is very randomly and not this regular usually (like on my star destroyer https://postimg.org/image/e6qb3g5md/ and also on my watanabe ao renge ohira and on different okudo ao renge i got)
i forgot but i guess this has also a special name what you got.. 

...but maybe i am wrong and if it works then its awesome!! thats also what i think about stones .. and it makes me more happy to accidentially intentionally get a super sick stone then just ordering it with zero risk )..yep iam crazy and its my hobby


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## dwalker (Sep 10, 2017)

I'm learning alot, at no small cost, though. I have 19 more stones to be shipped this week. I'm still sorting through the batch I just got and all indications are that every one is worth what I paid. I will be testing stones for some time and as I can't keep them all, look out in BST for some very reasonably priced stones soon.


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## Krassi (Sep 10, 2017)

19!! ) well i knew you were as crazy as me 

well you get what you pay for is also something i learned! Japanese sellers are not dumb.

yeah same here look out on BST for lots of stuff from me ..(something like that http://postimg.org/image/do0u4we45/ ) .. i did 2 hours testing and making photos today and stopped me from getting more stones.. wich is hard.. because sunday is stone day nr1 
i love to try stuff and every 2nd or 3rd stone is so awesome that i will keep it.

of course its non sense to have so much but well .. who cares  i like all my knifes and all my stones.


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## dwalker (Sep 10, 2017)

My philosophy is to buy alot of stones and sell anything that is redundredundant. I am impressed with the quality so far and I am having fun learning along the way.


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## valgard (Sep 10, 2017)

Just a note, that looks like &#32993;&#40635; = Goma = sesame seeds all over that stone, not Ao renge but that stone looks sweet nonetheless. Have you tried it on cladding?



dwalker said:


> Case in point. Here is a near fullsize stone from an unknown mine. It is covered in black renge and is immediately my favorite finisher for gyutos. It is crazy fast and leaves a incredibly toothy ~5k edge that seems to last forever. AFTER shipping from Japan, I have less than $60 in it. By the way, if anybody has any idea what it is, I would love to know so I can source more like it.


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## dwalker (Sep 10, 2017)

valgard said:


> Just a note, that looks like &#32993;&#40635; = Goma = sesame seeds all over that stone, not Ao renge but that stone looks sweet nonetheless. Have you tried it on cladding?


Thank you for the clarification. I have tried it on iron cladding. Pretty dark on the jigane and consistent relitavely fine scratch pattern. Misty on the hagane. I will post a picture tomorrow.


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## OliverNuther (Sep 11, 2017)

Thanks for the info guys, very interesting. It's reassuring to know that the expensive finishers are very long lasting, I think I'd cry or stroke out if I saw thousands of bucks literally dissolving in front of my eyes as I used it. 

The whole J-nats thing seems like a rabbit hole within a rabbit hole.


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## dwalker (Sep 11, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> Thanks for the info guys, very interesting. It's reassuring to know that the expensive finishers are very long lasting, I think I'd cry or stroke out if I saw thousands of bucks literally dissolving in front of my eyes as I used it.
> 
> The whole J-nats thing seems like a rabbit hole within a rabbit hole.


I have a suita I've been using alot for a couple of years and I bet I've worn less than 1/2 MM. At that rate, a 20mm thick stone will outlast me.


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## wbusby1 (Sep 11, 2017)

@OP, lots of good info here already and I know you said j-nats, but if you want absurd value on natural whetstones, try t-nats. Thai natural stones: good stones, freaking huge, and so cheap it leaves you feeling guilty.


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## dwalker (Sep 11, 2017)

As promised, here is the "budget" stone in action. 




















These pics are with no oil. To say this guy is a good value at $60 is a gross understatement.


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## TheCaptain (Sep 11, 2017)

Mic drop.


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## dwalker (Sep 11, 2017)

Here is another from the same batch. It cost me a good bit more, but still a great value. I was initially thinking about selling it but I've had a change if heart. It is a good bit finer than the other, but is still quite fast. I have no idea what it is, but I like it. 








After about 15 strokes on this little petty












It brightens cladding and core and is super consistent. These pics represent about 2 or three minutes per knife. These stones can do much better.


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## K813zra (Sep 11, 2017)

dwalker said:


> Here is another from the same batch. It cost me a good bit more, but still a great value. I was initially thinking about selling it but I've had a change if heart. It is a good bit finer than the other, but is still quite fast. I have no idea what it is, but I like it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I prefer the darker contrast from the other stone you posted. It seems like you got an amazing deal on that one. This one is nice too, though!


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## Krassi (Sep 11, 2017)

Ah Thanks to valgard for the info about the dots.. i knew there was a name for this stuff 

Well my best stone were also cheap as hell but will never leave my kitchen .. 
very nice finish with that stone!
I tried 15 stones yesterday and also amazed that they all do their job.. speed and ook is often the big difference, but also not so big difference.. and most important "comfort" !.. big stones are more fun to use...

oh ill post some pictures of my best stones with the results and slurry, color blablab 8ter.. i also got the some with new stuff i got..
Some were expensive and some totally cheap as mentioned.


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## valgard (Sep 11, 2017)

that looks like a super score dwalker


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## KimBronnum (Sep 11, 2017)

Reg. expensive stones and price(retension). In the four or so years I´ve been collecting jnats, prices have generally increased about 20-30 % for Awasedo finishers. 
This, combined with the low to none wear of the harder jnats, I would expect that sought after, full size finishers that have been looked after in all the right ways from one of the "brand" mines, would sell for more than payed for it after some years. The big problem, however, is wether one has a lot of money to invest in jnats. Naturally there are no guarantees but this is my fairly educated guess. 
This is also what I hope for, as it has been my excuse to my wife - lets buy Jnats and Shiges. I can play with it for 20 years and be happy and then we´ll sell the lot for what I payed for it  
All stones and knives must be used. Anything other than that is a shame. That is my opinion.
- Kim


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 11, 2017)

It feels like jnats shine on blades that cut well and/or sharpen easily. If you have a very easy to sharpen blade (a Shig or a Watanabe, for instance), it is easy to get a bigger than necessary burr on a synth, so you are taking more steel than you need. With jnats everything is slower, so there is more time to feel what's going on with your sharpening. Of course, jnats are beautiful and its beauty might also be a factor that influence its price along with other factors already said by others before (size, shape, mine of origin, speed, which layer it comes from, purity, color, existence and type of inclusions etc).


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## valgard (Sep 11, 2017)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> It feels like jnats shine on blades that cut well and/or sharpen easily. If you have a very easy to sharpen blade (a Shig or a Watanabe, for instance), it is easy to get a bigger than necessary burr on a synth, so you are taking more steel than you need. With jnats everything is slower, so there is more time to feel what's going on with your sharpening. Of course, jnats are beautiful and its beauty might also be a factor that influence its price along with other factors already said by others before (size, shape, mine of origin, speed, which layer it comes from, purity, color, existence and type of inclusions etc).


Just one thing, I have a couple Jnats that are finer than my Kitayama and faster by a good margin, there is a small Okudo shiro suita that eats steel away.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 11, 2017)

valgard said:


> Just one thing, I have a couple Jnats that are finer than my Kitayama and faster by a good margin, there is a small Okudo shiro suita that eats steel away.



There will always be very fast jnats, but they being faster than synths at approximately same grit is not the rule, it's the exception, specially if you are taking into account not only finishers, but also course and middle grit stones. Anyway, my point is that there is an advantage in being slower too.


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## Razor (Sep 11, 2017)

There is also an aesthetic aspect to Jnats. Some of the more expensive stones are priced like jewelry. Beautiful patterns etc. Nagura are also getting pricy due to demand and scarcity. Good Asano Koma are getting hard to find and great ones can cost as much as a good base stone. Big pieces of Botan for base stones can be very pricy. We are competing with sword polishers, wood carvers and straight razor users for the limited supply.


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## naifu (Sep 12, 2017)

I firmly believe that the J-nat market has entered the equivalent phase as the Tulip Mania of the 17th century. At some point people will realize that there is ample supply of these stones and that they are worth more like 20,000 JPY, not 100,000 and above. In terms of performance/cost/reliability, synthetics have surpassed J-nats (reference: S Watanabe, essay at bottom). For razors, perhaps not?, but for kitchen knives and tools I believe one can make them sufficiently sharp with a synthetic stone in less time. For polishing, I guess Jnats are still preferred, but I think that can and will change. 

- "After trying the synthetic stone Sadao threw away all of his Aoto stones into the garbage box. He had spent so much money for his Aoto, but in the end its value was only as good as its performance in sharpening."


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 12, 2017)

naifu said:


> I firmly believe that the J-nat market has entered the equivalent phase as the Tulip Mania of the 17th century. At some point people will realize that there is ample supply of these stones and that they are worth more like 20,000 JPY, not 100,000 and above. In terms of performance/cost/reliability, synthetics have surpassed J-nats (reference: S Watanabe, essay at bottom). For razors, perhaps not?, but for kitchen knives and tools I believe one can make them sufficiently sharp with a synthetic stone in less time. For polishing, I guess Jnats are still preferred, but I think that can and will change.
> 
> - "After trying the synthetic stone Sadao threw away all of his Aoto stones into the garbage box. He had spent so much money for his Aoto, but in the end its value was only as good as its performance in sharpening."



I highly doubt that the jnat market has entered a tulip mania-like bubble because there are mines that are closed now (there is no way to build an unlimited supply of stones from those mines as there were ways to produce more tulips). There is, of course, stock, but the owners of those won't simply give up their stock in a uncontrolled manner so that prices fall dramatically. I hope you are right, though. I would love to get type 24 nakayama marukas for 20,000 JPY. As for performance, my blades got sharper after using jnats and i noticed that less steel was taken to get those results. This is, i think, the main reason people use jnats: they feel they get better results when they sharpen with them by themselves. Even if one day the idea that synths are better in all respects become prevailing, there is more than performance at stake here. Like people said before, there is a beauty and detail on those stones that can't be matched by synths.


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## Krassi (Sep 12, 2017)

Well those mines have been closed now for 50-60 Years and more.. 
There is lots of old stock and there are lots of people that pass away or go to retirement. Anything that has been used by old barbers and carpenters is what we are also using for our kitchen knifes.
There are professional seller that want so sell stones until retirement.. so only fractions are sold at a time.

I actually dondt give anything about a maruka stamp.. since its the most faked stamp found on any stone and its just the name of the mine.. that guys were geniuses in creating a brand! Of course the real ones are good quality but not automatically the best stones.
jnats finisher combine very good comfort and performance in one stone. 

Synths in the finisher region will never beat naturals!.. and jnats are not the best you can use.. vintage thuringian Stones and other stones form germany are even much finer for example and even more rare than maruka nakayama stuff.
Watanabe told me the same but thats only for stuff lower than his 8k Kitayama.. in this region jnats are just fun stuff and the advantage is that they make less scratches because they are much slower... For doing the Job of shaping the blade synthetics are much faster anytime.
Well but with finishing you have these crazy results that the blade seems to cut better or the razor is much softer etc.


well you also drive an oldtimer car because its awesome, sounds sick, looks elegant, etc..


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 12, 2017)

I agree there is a higher risk buying marukas (i myself have none), but i would give it a try if i had the money and if i could by from a trusted source with a return guarantee. If jnat prices fell dramatically, then there would be no reason to fake those anymore anyway. Wouldn't you buy one, if they were sold by 20,000JPY and from a trusted source?


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## nutmeg (Sep 12, 2017)

For coarse to middle I find synth give best results.
I see coarse Jnat more a collector item than a useful tool.
Maybe the only thing is that Jnat keep their flatness better and that can be useful whe one needs to set a bevel.

For mid-fine to ultra fine stones I find synth give a cheap and plastic look, as if I could feel their softness through the polish.
As versus, fine Jnats give caracter or soul to metal.


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## Krassi (Sep 13, 2017)

Hii!

@marcelo Well if its fullsize and thick and a good finisher then why not.. but well most marukas are nakayama fine finishers and i got so many of those that i would actually only buy it to sell it unless it would blow me away  .. but every good nakayama will do this with or without a stamp.
Still if its a beauty i cant resist naturally.

yep definetly faster results.. the coarse/medium jnats are more fun stuff for a more gentle polishing and wellness. i actually dondt need anything between the ai1000 and kitayama and as you mentioned the kitayama is able to remove any scratches from before and even set bevels.. removing the mess from the stone before is mostly the reason for stone progressions.. and also the fact that you dont have any dishing with jants makes the use very pleasant. 

i could also go with aizu soft prefinishers or uchigumoris for polishing .. but if you just want to sharpen your knife its to much effort and slower results.

and thats one main difference.. if i just wanna get my knife shapr then i would just use 4 stones 1k, kitayama, suita and a ao renge suita or okudo awesedo... i havent tried the thuringian stones as final finisher they should be finer than most stuff i have in my collection. 
but for polishing and looks jnats give a blade a more analog deep look compared to some kind of cheap digital synthetic look ;9


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## Razor (Sep 13, 2017)

naifu said:


> I firmly believe that the J-nat market has entered the equivalent phase as the Tulip Mania of the 17th century. At some point people will realize that there is ample supply of these stones and that they are worth more like 20,000 JPY, not 100,000 and above. In terms of performance/cost/reliability, synthetics have surpassed J-nats (reference: S Watanabe, essay at bottom). For razors, perhaps not?, but for kitchen knives and tools I believe one can make them sufficiently sharp with a synthetic stone in less time. For polishing, I guess Jnats are still preferred, but I think that can and will change.
> 
> - "After trying the synthetic stone Sadao threw away all of his Aoto stones into the garbage box. He had spent so much money for his Aoto, but in the end its value was only as good as its performance in sharpening."



A Chevy Corvette will get you to Point-B just as fast and in some cases faster than a Ferrari, but the experience is oh so different. That said I enjoy my Chosera 1k, but it does not have the feel and appeal of my Jnats or Coticule.


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## nevrknow (Sep 13, 2017)

Razor said:


> A Chevy Corvette will get you to Point-B just as fast and in some cases faster than a Ferrari, but the experience is oh so different. That said I enjoy my Chosera 1k, but it does not have the feel and appeal of my Jnats or Coticule.



True, Even tho they may cost more, it is ( to me ) one of the cheaper luxuries in life to use jnats. A few dollars more for stones but oh what a "feel" difference.


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## naifu (Sep 14, 2017)

I'm not against Jnats -- I like them too, however I think the market is getting frothy and from my perspective is out of balance.

On the topic of cars: A Ferrari or Corvette is not so practical on public roads where I live because there are police and speed cameras everywhere, and because one has to be constantly on the lookout for potholes to avoid. On the track, they are both awesome. I owned a Porsche Carrera S a few years back and it was lots of fun to drive, but as a daily driver not so useful. It is a wonderful machine on the track, but too nice for track use. I got tired of it quickly, sold it and I now drive a 2016 Honda Civic. By all metrics that matter to me, the Civic is a far better vehicle than the Porsche.

I don't have much experience with knives and Jnats, but those who do, e.g. knife makers and professional chefs, they have indicated that for daily use a Jnat is not so practical. So where do Jnats shine? What is the equivalent of track use for Jnats? Probably home use knife and razor enthusiasts, maybe some Sushi chefs, and perhaps for those few people who manufacture Samarai swords. Am I wrong?


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## Nemo (Sep 14, 2017)

Why do knives and stones keep getting compared to cars? They have almost nothing in common.


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## Matus (Sep 14, 2017)

Jnats (and I mean finishers here) can give a really 'special' edge to kitchen knives that I find is superior to synthetic stones in my opinion. Coarse and medium stones can be a lot of fun, but synthetic stones are just more practical in that grit range.

However the 'natural stone craze' we see on the rise in the past few years, together with the fact that most mines in Japan have been closed for decades, got the prices exploding - in particular when we look what is available via English speaking vendors. It became impossible to get a decent (size and quality) Ohira Suita Aka Renge for under 500 ($/). The same is true for many other stones. Plus most that is on the market today is 'B class' as the really nice stones are gone already. 

There are still many reasonably priced stones out there (mostly on Japanese auction sites), but to get anything usable one needs to have a lot of experience to identify stones which are either missing a description, or where the description is wrong. On top of that there are fake stones on the market - in particular among the sought after stones - stamps are no guarantee unfortunately.

With all that said - I really think that every user of Japanese kitchen knives should test an edge finished with some nice suita  it is a different experience.


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## Krassi (Sep 14, 2017)

Yep! i fully agree.. i heard from more than one stone seller that the recent stuff is more b-class... since the best ones are digged out you cant make the stones better.

Regarding this detective work and russian roulette gambling at auctions i can fully agree.. took me 2,5 years to get a feeling for the stuff and i know most stuff that was sold in that time.
You only find stamps on NOS stuff or something that has never been used as a collectors item. but 80%+ is without stamps... i often bought stuff with not knowing what i will get.

one important thing is "a good suita is a good suita" whatever brand or name it has.. same with other stuff.. brands, mine names and stamps just help to make it easier to categorize.. 
Also looking for other stuff can also be eye opening.. for example european stones.. its not that the japanese mountains invented sharpening stones and are the only ones with good polishers.


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## naifu (Sep 14, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Why do knives and stones keep getting compared to cars? They have almost nothing in common.



not to compare knives and stones to cars but to explain purchasing habits/rationale of people


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## malexthekid (Sep 14, 2017)

naifu said:


> I'm not against Jnats -- I like them too, however I think the market is getting frothy and from my perspective is out of balance.
> 
> On the topic of cars: A Ferrari or Corvette is not so practical on public roads where I live because there are police and speed cameras everywhere, and because one has to be constantly on the lookout for potholes to avoid. On the track, they are both awesome. I owned a Porsche Carrera S a few years back and it was lots of fun to drive, but as a daily driver not so useful. It is a wonderful machine on the track, but too nice for track use. I got tired of it quickly, sold it and I now drive a 2016 Honda Civic. By all metrics that matter to me, the Civic is a far better vehicle than the Porsche.
> 
> I don't have much experience with knives and Jnats, but those who do, e.g. knife makers and professional chefs, they have indicated that for daily use a Jnat is not so practical. So where do Jnats shine? What is the equivalent of track use for Jnats? Probably home use knife and razor enthusiasts, maybe some Sushi chefs, and perhaps for those few people who manufacture Samarai swords. Am I wrong?


No! Just No.

In no way is a civic better than a Porsche. None, zip, zadda!!!!


More practical I'll pay that [emoji1] [emoji1] [emoji1]


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## malexthekid (Sep 14, 2017)

naifu said:


> not to compare knives and stones to cars but to explain purchasing habits/rationale of people


I think it is an apt comparison. Especially your Porches v Civic.

Synthetics are the practical option. Low maintenance do everything a j-nat does* just not as pretty.

*I know people, especially razor users, say they can feel the "better" edge from a jnat however i tend to think that is confirmation bias. If it is real then i would suggest it is more to do with the grit comparison and composition aka real hard to actually compare the same grit plus you get the issue of grit breaking down in some jnats so actually refining the edge further.


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## K813zra (Sep 14, 2017)

Arguing practicality with a group of people who think they need 1297 gyutos in and of itself is not practical. :rofl2: Certainly not any more practical than using J-nats.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 14, 2017)

naifu said:


> I'm not against Jnats -- I like them too, however I think the market is getting frothy and from my perspective is out of balance.
> 
> On the topic of cars: A Ferrari or Corvette is not so practical on public roads where I live because there are police and speed cameras everywhere, and because one has to be constantly on the lookout for potholes to avoid. On the track, they are both awesome. I owned a Porsche Carrera S a few years back and it was lots of fun to drive, but as a daily driver not so useful. It is a wonderful machine on the track, but too nice for track use. I got tired of it quickly, sold it and I now drive a 2016 Honda Civic. By all metrics that matter to me, the Civic is a far better vehicle than the Porsche.
> 
> I don't have much experience with knives and Jnats, but those who do, e.g. knife makers and professional chefs, they have indicated that for daily use a Jnat is not so practical. So where do Jnats shine? What is the equivalent of track use for Jnats? Probably home use knife and razor enthusiasts, maybe some Sushi chefs, and perhaps for those few people who manufacture Samarai swords. Am I wrong?



I agree that to each his own. It's hard to come to the same conclusion (are jnats worth it or not, for instance) if we are bound by different time, money and other restrictions in life from each other. If i'm not mistaken, i remember a KKF member saying that he had no more time to use his large format photographic equipment after he had a kid. I wouldn't use as much jnats as i do if time were an important constraint while sharpening my knives.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 14, 2017)

@OP: this was discussed in another thread some years ago: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/3275-Are-Jnats-worth-the-price?highlight=jnats


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## Bolek (Sep 15, 2017)

I have many Jnat I like (love ?) to use. I am lucky as I like hare ones which are usually less expensive than the soft ones.
There are two main problems with Jnat :
You shall find which ones do YOU like/love;
You do not get what you pay for. In other words the price and the quality are variable.


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## OliverNuther (Sep 16, 2017)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> @OP: this was discussed in another thread some years ago: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/3275-Are-Jnats-worth-the-price?highlight=jnats



Thanks for the tip. That thread was well before I joined and I was unaware of it. It seems that OP was asking precisely what I asked and got similar responses. 

Thanks for all the info guys. I appreciate everyone taking the time to enlighten me.


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## Chef Doom (Sep 19, 2017)

In a world where people purchase Rolex watches it still surprises me why people question the cost of various items. A J-Nat can be priced @ $4000 because there are people that are willing to pay for it.

If you have to question if something is worth a rediculous price then it isnt worth it to you by default.


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## Anton (Sep 19, 2017)

Chef Doom said:


> In a world where people purchase Rolex watches it still surprises me why people question the cost of various items. A J-Nat can be priced @ $4000 because there are people that are willing to pay for it.
> 
> If you have to question if something is worth a rediculous price then it isnt worth it to you by default.



The whole Rolex world is crazy now 
Too much money "out" there


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