# Fastest cutting medium grit stone



## shinyunggyun (Aug 19, 2021)

I'm looking for something in the 800-2000 range that cuts faster than chosera 800, cerax 1000, or king hyper.

How are sigma power selects? Do these load up at all?

What about pride abrasives?


----------



## branwell (Aug 19, 2021)

I have the Chosera 800. I can say the Nubatama 1K Ume Speckled and 1K Platinum are both way faster as is the Bestor 1.2k.
I have a Pride 600, the one made for Carter so I don't know if its indicative of the normal Prides, but its a beast speed wise. If their 1K is anything like it, it will be way faster than the Chosera.
Never tried the Sigmas so cant comment.


----------



## MowgFace (Aug 19, 2021)

Probably JKI's Vitrified Diamond 800. No personal experience with this stone, but Jon has mentioned them many times in his older live streams, that it was his favorite stone to do coarse work with, but is actually an 800 grit stone.


----------



## Qapla' (Aug 19, 2021)

What are you sharpening?

I have the Sigma Power Select II 1000. I wouldn't recommend it for things other than "super steels", as it releases abrasives very quickly. (On "simpler" steels, where the rate of abrasive-release is greater than that required to provide fresh abrasives to cut the metal, this results in a lot of material flushed away.)

Are you sharpening single-bevel knives? If yes, perhaps you might also consider a "Red Brick" stone such as a Naniwa Akamonzen 1000 or Nubatama Reddish 1200.

Disclosures:
* I have Naniwa stones, but not an Akamonzen.
* I have a Nubatama stone, but not a medium-grit one.


----------



## shinyunggyun (Aug 19, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> What are you sharpening?
> 
> I have the Sigma Power Select II 1000. I wouldn't recommend it for things other than "super steels", as it releases abrasives very quickly. (On "simpler" steels, where the rate of abrasive-release is greater than that required to provide fresh abrasives to cut the metal, this results in a lot of material flushed away.)
> 
> ...


blue #1


----------



## shinyunggyun (Aug 19, 2021)

branwell said:


> I have the Chosera 800. I can say the Nubatama 1K Ume Speckled and 1K Platinum are both way faster as is the Bestor 1.2k.
> I have a Pride 600, the one made for Carter so I don't know if its indicative of the normal Prides, but its a beast speed wise. If their 1K is anything like it, it will be way faster than the Chosera.
> Never tried the Sigmas so cant comment.


I've never even heard of the nabutama. How is the dishing, load up, and feedback on these? And how is the cutting speed on these compared to pride? As for the besters, are these soaking stones or splash and go?


----------



## Steampunk (Aug 19, 2021)

This depends so much on the steel in question... 

The Chosera 800, and Cerax 1000 are both pretty fast stones (Close to Shapton 1K Pro fast.), and will eat some steel with the right technique... A bit of pressure, and correct soaking to release some abrasives will make these eat metal unless a lot of hard carbides are involved, or you simply need to go to a lower-grit stone. 

The JNS 800 Matukusuyama (Which is SiC abrasive... There are other 800-grit SiC stones like the King NEO 800, and Bernal Dragon 800.), as well as various plated, resin bonded, or vitrified diamond stones in the 600-1200 grit range, will eat abrasion-resistant steels with a lot of tungsten, vanadium, or chromium carbides alive. Sometimes, you need this. Sometimes, you just need a coarser stone.

For hard Blue #1, you really need to drop down lower in grit, and or use a lot more pressure. It's not so much about the hardness of the sharpening media (Diamond or SiC isn't a necessity.), but the size of the grit, and releasing enough fresh abrasive with this steel when it's 63-64+ hrc. Thinning it, you definitely need pressure, and some loose abrasive, and a stone that can take it without dishing so badly you'll distort your bevels. Hard blue #1 in my experience responds really well to micro-beveling. Get it thin enough behind the edge using gorilla-tactics, and then it'll take a civilized edge like a dream on a lot of different stones. Once you're trying to sharpen a 10-15+ thou edge bevel that's dulled or micro-chipped, you're going to need to break down to a soft to medium hardness 320-500 grit stone to do the work that you think an 800-1200 should do based upon experience with other blades. 3-7 thousandths bevels on B#1 are much easier to handle. Getting them there is easier using Hamiguri (Clam Shell/Convex) sharpening if you're working with a single or wide bevel, since this puts more abrasive pressure on a smaller point of the core steel. 

If you're looking for the fastest mid-grit stone for Blue #1, you're probably not going to find one... I can't say that even my steel-eater JNS 800 does a ton better than my slowest Gesshin 1200 when it comes to fixing a fat, hard, worn/damaged Aogami #1 edge bevel. It slows down a lot... Hamiguri sharpening can make the problem a lot easier, as can low-grit stones that shed some abrasive (Gesshin 400, Shapton Glass 500, Cerax 320, etc.). This steel rewards patience, and technique. Different stones are the solution to some metals, but not always this one when it's taken hard (Which it often is.). Keep some fresh abrasive flowing, use some pressure, know when to pull out coarse stones, and limit the size of your pressure points in sharpening. It'll become a real honey of a steel once you do. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## shinyunggyun (Aug 19, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> This depends so much on the steel in question...
> 
> The Chosera 800, and Cerax 1000 are both pretty fast stones (Close to Shapton 1K Pro fast.), and will eat some steel with the right technique... A bit of pressure, and correct soaking to release some abrasives will make these eat metal unless a lot of hard carbides are involved, or you simply need to go to a lower-grit stone.
> 
> ...


So what grit should I drop down to?


----------



## Steampunk (Aug 19, 2021)

Depends on what you're doing... Better soaking (The Naniwa 800 for just a few minutes; the Cerax 1K overnight.), plus a bit more pressure, and a different technique might get you the result you're after. 

Otherwise if you're just repairing edge bevel damage without thinning, I'd say that a Shapton 500, Cerax 320, or Naniwa Pro 400 might be more inline with what you're searching for in a 1K stone. JNS 300 can also work well, but only if you're thinning. 

If you're working on a wide/single bevel, get some mud started up on the cladding, and then move down to the core steel with some pressure. Create some thinning facets by progressively raising the spine of the knife, rock between them to smooth them out, and then raise the angle to micro-bevel. The thinner your edge, the more robust you can and should make the apex micro-bevel to avoid carbide dropout (30+ degrees inclusive, whearas you can get away with 15-20 degrees inclusive on a thicker BTE blade in this steel at this hardness.). You might even be able to use your existing stones to fix the damage using this technique. Manage your mud. Don't let it thin out too much, but don't let it get too dry, either.

I was recently surprised what a Belgian Blue with a bit of mud could do in terms of restoring the edge on a ~63-64hrc Blue #1 knife using this methodology.


----------



## branwell (Aug 19, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> I've never even heard of the nabutama. How is the dishing, load up, and feedback on these? And how is the cutting speed on these compared to pride? As for the besters, are these soaking stones or splash and go?



Nubatama. They are sold by a guy called Ken Schwarz. He can be found on the Chef knives to go forums.
There are a lot of them. I think 8 stones in the 1K grit level alone. Some are soft, some hard, some in the middle. Best thing to do is contact Ken and discuss your needs as they are to varied for me to comment on them as a whole.
I can tell you the medium hardness Platinum 1K and the 1.5K are really very nice stones. They are in the same feel family as the Suehiro Ouka and have really solid feedback. While they are expensive relatively speaking, they are big stones, bigger than stones like the Chosera's. Oh, and they are semi soakers. 5 minutes is more than enough.

The Bester is a full soaker.


----------



## M1k3 (Aug 19, 2021)

Diamond plates, followed by vitrified diamond for speed.


----------



## shinyunggyun (Aug 20, 2021)

So it's between pride abrasives and bester for me.

Sigma appears to be more for PM steels. And the nubatama are too expensive for me.

So should I go with the bester 700? bester 1000? pride 600? or pride 1000?


----------



## M1k3 (Aug 20, 2021)

Shapton Glass 500 DT


----------



## branwell (Aug 20, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> So should I go with the bester 700? bester 1000? pride 600? or pride 1000?


Pretty wide range. What is the specific use case?


----------



## captaincaed (Aug 20, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> Hard blue #1 in my experience responds really well to micro-beveling. Get it thin enough behind the edge using gorilla-tactics, and then it'll take a civilized edge like a dream on a lot of different stones.


FWIW I had a similar experience with my B1 Murata. After thinning it became a real treat to use, sharpen and touch up. Much tougher than I expected as well, although I think it was 62-63 HRC.


----------



## shinyunggyun (Aug 20, 2021)

branwell said:


> Pretty wide range. What is the specific use case?


It's down to pride 1000, bester 1000, and bester 700 now.


----------



## branwell (Aug 20, 2021)

Those are two brands you don't hear much of on this forum but.....

The Bester that gets all the acclaim is the 1.2k. I've not tried the others but the 1.2k is a legitimately good stone. Its much faster than its 1.2k rating would suggest and it has solid feedback. It is a soaker though and if you don't soak it, it will load up more than is good. Oh, and the 1.2K rating is BS. Its more like a 800 or 1K.

I've heard older Pride stones weren't the best. I can tell you the Carter Pride 600 I have feels better and cuts way faster than the Chosera 400. Its a medium hard stone and its not muddy. Its a semi soaker. If all that holds over to the 1K ( which it might not. Things tend to very within stone lines ), its going to be a legit stone. I definitely plan to try more Pride stones. So get one and let us know what you think


----------



## shinyunggyun (Aug 20, 2021)

So down to pride 1000 and bester 1.2. I'll just get the pride 1000. And if I don't like it, I'll get the bester 1.2.


----------



## shinyunggyun (Aug 20, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> Depends on what you're doing... Better soaking (The Naniwa 800 for just a few minutes; the Cerax 1K overnight.), plus a bit more pressure, and a different technique might get you the result you're after.
> 
> Otherwise if you're just repairing edge bevel damage without thinning, I'd say that a Shapton 500, Cerax 320, or Naniwa Pro 400 might be more inline with what you're searching for in a 1K stone. JNS 300 can also work well, but only if you're thinning.
> 
> ...


I am aware that I can drop down to a lower grit to get the job done. I just really wanted to have a 1000 grit stone that can do the job well. If the pride 1000 falls short, I'll drop down lower in grit.


----------



## Steampunk (Aug 20, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> I am aware that I can drop down to a lower grit to get the job done. I just really wanted to have a 1000 grit stone that can do the job well. If the pride 1000 falls short, I'll drop down lower in grit.



Good luck on your search. Hope the new stone works out for you. Keep us posted on your findings.


----------



## Steampunk (Aug 20, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> FWIW I had a similar experience with my B1 Murata. After thinning it became a real treat to use, sharpen and touch up. Much tougher than I expected as well, although I think it was 62-63 HRC.



Yep... Pretty much my findings, as well. Tosa smiths do an amazing job with this stuff. It's up to you to do the finish grinding, but if you know the grind you want, there's enough metal there to make it happen. Cladding is a bit more reactive/rust prone than I'd like, but the core is ace.


----------



## captaincaed (Aug 20, 2021)

Sounds exactly right to me. I found an instant coffee patina really calmed the reactivity nicely. A little nail polish to seal the handle junction, and I had great luck after. Love love love the steel. Sad to hear Murata is retiring, supposedly. Any others you fancy?


----------



## inferno (Aug 20, 2021)

having owned and used at least 12 1k-ish stones now. i think the shapton pro 1k is the best of them. 

its the fastest. 
its splash and go. 
it wont crack. 
slow dishing.
cheap.


----------



## daveb (Aug 20, 2021)

branwell said:


> Nubatama. They are sold by a guy called Ken Schwarz. He can be found on the Chef knives to go forums.
> There are a lot of them. I think 8 stones in the 1K grit level alone. Some are soft, some hard, some in the middle. Best thing to do is contact Ken and discuss your needs as they are to varied for me to comment on them as a whole.
> I can tell you the medium hardness Platinum 1K and the 1.5K are really very nice stones. They are in the same feel family as the Suehiro Ouka and have really solid feedback. While they are expensive relatively speaking, they are big stones, bigger than stones like the Chosera's. Oh, and they are semi soakers. 5 minutes is more than enough.
> 
> The Bester is a full soaker.



Take it for what it's worth - Nubatama and Schwatz were both censored through most of KKF's existence. We are trying to become a kinder, gentler and more inclusive forum so members can make their own choices. But. I once saw a vid of Schwart sharpening on a tree stump that was held together by myriad hose clamps. My choice is to run, not walk away from anything he's hawking.


----------



## daveb (Aug 20, 2021)

What Inferno said. The SP1000 is the best of affordable and readily available alternatives. But. JKI's 800 diamond plate will produce a burr on ZWear in a minute - something the SP1000 just won't / can't do. YOLO


----------



## LostHighway (Aug 20, 2021)

branwell said:


> Nubatama. They are sold by a guy called Ken Schwarz. He can be found on the Chef knives to go forums.
> There are a lot of them. I think 8 stones in the 1K grit level alone. Some are soft, some hard, some in the middle. Best thing to do is contact Ken and discuss your needs as they are to varied for me to comment on them as a whole.
> I can tell you the medium hardness Platinum 1K and the 1.5K are really very nice stones. They are in the same feel family as the Suehiro Ouka and have really solid feedback. While they are expensive relatively speaking, they are big stones, bigger than stones like the Chosera's. Oh, and they are semi soakers. 5 minutes is more than enough.



FWIW dealing with Ken usually involves a phone call, his preferred method of communication. Unless things have changed recently he does not have a website. Don't call if you're in a hurry or impatient, Ken is a bit of talker and can be rather digressive. As @branwell noted the list of Nubatama stones is quite long and all over the map as far as characteristics go. He also carries a few JNATS, or at least used to. He has videos on YouTube as kenneths123. I haven't looked in recent years but historically relative to Shaptons, Naniwa, or Suehiro there haven't been many easily accessible user reviews.


----------



## inferno (Aug 20, 2021)

yeah working with carbide steels you might want diamonds. but imo up to like 2-3k you dont need them. 5-6k and up then you want them. i even sharpened a s30v blade on 220 (or 120, i dont remember) shapton pro then directly to the 12k shapton pro. took me 5 minutes or so to get all the 220 scratches out. you do the math. and s30v is much tougher to grind than all common japanese powder steels except maybe that 3%C one. and maybe that "hss light" one hap40?

my brain is standing still since i'm drunk 

just a sidenote on diamonds. on the blog/site scienceofsharp.com the guy tests a dmt C/325 grit (the diamond plate progression). and then does SEM images of the edge.
he does this on stright razors. and what do you know, the the 325 produces the sharpest edge of all the dmt stones. the cutting edge i under 100nanometers thick. sharper than the 16k shapton.

i of course tested this. with 3 swedish razors from the 18-hundreds. and would you believe it, the dmt 325 edge shaves better than the shapton pro 12k, morihei 12k (much much better), imanishi 10k. only thing better shaving in my arsenal is the shapton then the conditioned spyderco ultrafine (in only burnishes). yeah thats better than the dmt 325. but only that. then i have about 5-6 other above 8k stones i tried the razors with. cant shave with any of them.

so before anyone goes out and buys a vitrified diamonds stone for several hundreds. get a dmt C. if i can shave off it. you can cut food with it. and if you dont trust me surf into scienceofsharp.com look into the diamond plate progression. nuff said there i guess. it really works.


----------



## Benuser (Aug 20, 2021)

Ever considered the Naniwa Pro 600? The most Shapton-like of their series. Hard, not as versatile as the 800 and 400, fast cutter, not much tactile feedback. Cuts faster and seems coarser than the 400. 
Never sharpened Blue#1. With #2 and AS though, starting with a medium-coarse contributes to edge stability. Must have to do with some carbides. The idea is not to remove a lot of steel. When thinning behind the edge, the very edge may take a few light strokes.


----------



## shinyunggyun (Aug 20, 2021)

inferno said:


> having owned and used at least 12 1k-ish stones now. i think the shapton pro 1k is the best of them.
> 
> its the fastest.
> its splash and go.
> ...


I heard it is good for PM steels. But blue #1?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Aug 20, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> I heard it is good for PM steels. But blue #1?




What do you view as the difference between those that gives you pause?


----------



## shinyunggyun (Aug 21, 2021)

Experience


----------



## M1k3 (Aug 21, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> I heard it is good for PM steels. But blue #1?


Shapton 1k is great for Blue 1 and not terribly high carbide PM steels.


----------



## zizirex (Aug 21, 2021)

Arashiyama 1K. it's one of the faster 1K.
faster than king hyper for sure and doesn't dish as fast as king hyper.

but doesn't feel as nice and contrasty as king hyper.


----------



## shinyunggyun (Aug 21, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Shapton 1k is great for Blue 1 and not terribly high carbide PM steels.


Oh, my bad. I saw it as shapton glass for some reason. Yes, shapton pro is good.


----------



## EricEricEric (Aug 21, 2021)

Shapton 1k is definitely my favorite synthetic for speed and feel. It’s supposed to be closer to 800 though. The 8K is really great as well and reminds me of the 1k





shinyunggyun said:


> I heard it is good for PM steels. But blue #1?


----------



## Garm (Aug 22, 2021)

This is the most comprehensive comparison of 1k(ish) stones I've ever found, and allthough the results aren't necessarily directly applicable when it comes to sharpening kitchen knives, it provides lots of valuable info.

Waterstone testing, the results. Part I. « Tools from Japan blog.

Waterstone testing, the results. Part II. « Tools from Japan blog.

Waterstone testing; intermission. Some special steel as a snack. « Tools from Japan blog.

Waterstone testing part III, what’s the stone actually doing? « Tools from Japan blog.


----------



## Tapio (Aug 28, 2021)

I don’t know if the cutting speed of a 1000 grit stone is that important. I think that you need a lower grit stone if the edge has some heavy damage and you want to fix this. For regular sharpening or removing the scratch marks of a lower grit stone you usually don’t need much cutting speed.


----------



## panda (Aug 28, 2021)

I treat cho400 like a fast 1k


----------



## M1k3 (Aug 28, 2021)

panda said:


> I treat cho400 like a fast 1k


I have the same idea. SG 500 as my fast 1k.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Aug 28, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> I have the same idea. SG 500 as my fast 1k.



I go SG500 to SG2k.


----------



## ian (Aug 28, 2021)

daveb said:


> But. I once saw a vid of Schwart sharpening on a tree stump that was held together by myriad hose clamps. My choice is to run, not walk away from anything he's hawking.



I don't know anything about him. He seems very into the 16 bajillion grit strop sprays. I wonder if anyone has any experience with them. My thoughts turn cynical when I see him demonstrating their effectiveness by doing a few strokes on a spyderco and then slicing copy paper.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Aug 28, 2021)

ian said:


> I don't know anything about him. He seems very into the 16 bajillion grit strop sprays. I wonder if anyone has any experience with them. My thoughts turn cynical when I see him demonstrating their effectiveness by doing a few strokes on a spyderco and then slicing copy paper.



I wouldn't give Ken Schwartz a penny. He censors his own videos so only his comments remain and it is my experience that he cannot handle criticism at all. There's just too many other good options out there.


----------



## branwell (Aug 29, 2021)

I don't know what Ken did to earn the ire of this forum but I'd love to know. Those of you casting shade on him seem like good guys, but I've been buying stones from Ken, not many, maybe 7 or 8 over 8 years, and I've not had any issues at all. He shipped what he said he would when he said he would and he has given me plenty of his time answering questions etc.

While stones are somewhat subjective, I have 60+ stones from most of the majors and can say with a clean conscience that some of the Nubatama's are my most frequently used stones in their specific grit ranges. I can also say I have a couple I don't like, but I can say that of every stone manufacturer so to me thats not unusual or unexpected.

And HumbleHomeCook, I'm sure you did see censorship if you say you did, but when I looked at Kens Youtube channel just now ( kenneths123 ), I didn't see any obvious censorship. With the exception of one vid that had the comments section turned off, the random selection I clicked ranging from this year to 10 years ago seemed pretty normal. People asking questions, him replying. Granted I didn't look at every vid, but I didn't see any that where just his comments.

Anyways. I'm a relative new comer to this forum. I wasn't around when whatever went down to create a rift happened but I would like to know if anyone would care to share.


----------



## memorael (Aug 29, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> I'm looking for something in the 800-2000 range that cuts faster than chosera 800, cerax 1000, or king hyper.
> 
> How are sigma power selects? Do these load up at all?
> 
> What about pride abrasives?


Use diamonds, but take care.


----------



## memorael (Aug 29, 2021)

memorael said:


> Use diamonds, but take care.





memorael said:


> Use diamonds, but take care.


Jesus.... the posts are all over the place. The fastest stone I know of when it comes to moving material is the dmt xxc, its rough as hell really fast and it gets the job done. For a more specific answer let us know, besides fast what else does the stone need to do? By pure login dmt xxc is the hardest abrasive and biggest size abrasive there is so just go at it. Unless you are more specific.


----------



## memorael (Aug 29, 2021)

branwell said:


> I don't know what Ken did to earn the ire of this forum but I'd love to know. Those of you casting shade on him seem like good guys, but I've been buying stones from Ken, not many, maybe 7 or 8 over 8 years, and I've not had any issues at all. He shipped what he said he would when he said he would and he has given me plenty of his time answering questions etc.
> 
> While stones are somewhat subjective, I have 60+ stones from most of the majors and can say with a clean conscience that some of the Nubatama's are my most frequently used stones in their specific grit ranges. I can also say I have a couple I don't like, but I can say that of every stone manufacturer so to me thats not unusual or unexpected.
> 
> ...


Really old forums member, lurker etc... Ken earned the IRE of the forums because he is so square that if there isn't a mathematical formula explaining how things work it probably isn't right. Knife sharpening can be really precise if we all got together and analyzed every stone and every knife to the point of having mathematical precision, but that's close to impossible of happening. Sharpening knives is a personal thing, knowing your knife and how you like it to perform is part of understanding sharpening and what steel you like, its not subjective. Ken tried to make it subjective and well, got the title of idot.


----------



## ian (Aug 29, 2021)

memorael said:


> Really old forums member, lurker etc... Ken earned the IRE of the forums because he is so square that if there isn't a mathematical formula explaining how things work it probably isn't right. Knife sharpening can be really precise if we all got together and analyzed every stone and every knife to the point of having mathematical precision, but that's close to impossible of happening. Sharpening knives is a personal thing, knowing your knife and how you like it to perform is part of understanding sharpening and what steel you like, its not subjective. Ken tried to make it subjective and well, got the title of idot.



You mean objective?

Again, idk, but it seems like the forum is usually pretty interested in precision nowadays. Sharpening may be a personal journey or whatever, but when people offer actual explanations for what is happening I find forum members pretty appreciative. I wonder if that’s changed over the years, or if Ken’s attitude was abrasive, or what. The only problem I ever have with theory here is when people make guesses based on a physical understanding of what’s going on that I’m not sure are supported by evidence (e.g. the idea that sharpening with the handle at a certain angle to the stone can align the teeth of the edge in a useful way), or when people focus on something that probably does happen, but is so insignificant that no-one will ever notice it.


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr (Aug 29, 2021)

memorael said:


> Jesus.... the posts are all over the place. The fastest stone I know of when it comes to moving material is the dmt xxc, its rough as hell really fast and it gets the job done. For a more specific answer let us know, besides fast what else does the stone need to do? By pure login dmt xxc is the hardest abrasive and biggest size abrasive there is so just go at it. Unless you are more specific.


I haven't tried DMT XXC, but I do have and use Atoma diamond 1k. In fact I used it even for repairs, cause it's super fast (comparable to JNS 300) but doesn't leave deep scratches. The only problem with Atoma is that it looses diamonds over time. I wear mine in 2 years to the state when it's no longer usable for repairs, but still ok for sharpening.

Despite having very good sythetic stones and few naturals, I rarely use any of them theese days. Once you try diamond stones, it's hard to look back. I've found locally made diamond stones that are cheaper than Japanese/EU synthetic stones, so for me it's not only speed, but also money economy.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Aug 29, 2021)

I didn't mean to derail the thread. Sorry OP.

My interactions with Ken were outside of this forum. I was a fan at first but over time, his attitude just turned me off. He's his biggest fan. I'm not arguing the validity of his products by any means and if you like dealing with him that is great. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of it. I just go turned off and never looked back.

Now, I know Cliff was quite the polarizing figure himself but it's an easy to find example. Cliff has the original video linked in his comments.


----------



## cotedupy (Aug 29, 2021)

branwell said:


> I have 60+ stones



Excellent! I'm probably in a similar ball park, so this is _exactly_ the kind of information I need to be armed with when the postman arrives tomorrow with another old Turkish and Washita off ebay, while my wife is working from home .


----------



## daveb (Aug 29, 2021)

I had a XXC at the start of my "journey". Used a full DMT line-up on hunting knives before I got into sharp kitchen knives. I only used the XXC on problem children and it would leave gouges in the blade face that were neat impossible to remove. It did make for a very good flattener though. A year into kitchen knives I gave it to someone that needed a cheap flattener (and I needed an excuse to buy JKI's plate).


----------



## spaceconvoy (Aug 29, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I didn't mean to derail the thread. Sorry OP.
> 
> My interactions with Ken were outside of this forum. I was a fan at first but over time, his attitude just turned me off. He's his biggest fan. I'm not arguing the validity of his products by any means and if you like dealing with him that is great. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of it. I just go turned off and never looked back.
> 
> Now, I know Cliff was quite the polarizing figure himself but it's an easy to find example. Cliff has the original video linked in his comments.





Here's the original video, not for the faint of heat-treat. @branwell does this seem like a normal comments section? @ian he's not actually objective, he just uses the pretense of science as a cudgel to silence any criticism of his products. Unless you have access to a scanning electron microscope he will not accept your arguments. Just a snake oil salesman with a 21st century veneer.

I've read flame wars with Jende Industries. "Black steel" and 0.025 micron diamond spray. Edges too delicate to slice chopsticks. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to logoff.


----------



## Tapio (Aug 29, 2021)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Once you try diamond stones, it's hard to look back.


I stopped using Atomas for sharpening. I use them only for flattening my whetstones.


----------



## spaceconvoy (Aug 29, 2021)

Apologies for derailing as well. Back on topic, like others here I've settled on the deservedly popular 500 -> 2000 progression. 1K feels too slow for bevel work but too fast for touch ups. If you twisted my arm I would say the Shapton Pro 1K is the fastest non-diamond waterstone for typical kitchen knife steels in the limited grit range specified by the OP. But I'd like to know more about the context: what stones are you using before and after in your progression?


----------



## memorael (Aug 29, 2021)

ian said:


> You mean objective?
> 
> Again, idk, but it seems like the forum is usually pretty interested in precision nowadays. Sharpening may be a personal journey or whatever, but when people offer actual explanations for what is happening I find forum members pretty appreciative. I wonder if that’s changed over the years, or if Ken’s attitude was abrasive, or what. The only problem I ever have with theory here is when people make guesses based on a physical understanding of what’s going on that I’m not sure are supported by evidence (e.g. the idea that sharpening with the handle at a certain angle to the stone can align the teeth of the edge in a useful way), or when people focus on something that probably does happen, but is so insignificant that no-one will ever notice it.


It's really hard to really define why hand sharpening is better than using a JIG. I have tried them both and can confirm that hand sharpening is better, I can do things with my hands that no jig can is all I can tell you. Precision as a concept sounds pretty neat and many like the idea of precision but when it comes to the practice of sharpening some things are just going to be imprecise and theres nothing you me Ken or whoever else is around can do. As I mentioned before Ken got caught up in these ideas of ULTRA PRECISE and BEST CUTTING PERFORMANCE due to precision and basically tired everyone out.

If you want some proof that hand sharpening is and probably will always be better just ask yourself why it still is the most common practice amongst professionals. One other thing, some ideas and principles on how or why things happen can be explained incorrectly by assuming something happens and while it may be an incorrect explanation there is no doubt that something useful does indeed happen.


----------



## branwell (Aug 30, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Here's the original video, not for the faint of heat-treat. @branwell does this seem like a normal comments section? @ian he's not actually objective, he just uses the pretense of science as a cudgel to silence any criticism of his products. Unless you have access to a scanning electron microscope he will not accept your arguments. Just a snake oil salesman with a 21st century veneer.
> 
> I've read flame wars with Jende Industries. "Black steel" and 0.025 micron diamond spray. Edges too delicate to slice chopsticks. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to logoff.




Best scene ever.

As to Ken, no, I had not seen that vid or its comment section and clearly he deleted a stack of comments. Didn't know of the other things you mention either. Got to say, I'm disappointed. I rather liked his stones


----------



## ian (Aug 30, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Here's the original video, not for the faint of heat-treat. @branwell does this seem like a normal comments section? @ian he's not actually objective, he just uses the pretense of science as a cudgel to silence any criticism of his products. Unless you have access to a scanning electron microscope he will not accept your arguments. Just a snake oil salesman with a 21st century veneer.
> 
> I've read flame wars with Jende Industries. "Black steel" and 0.025 micron diamond spray. Edges too delicate to slice chopsticks. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to logoff.




Yikes. Not sure how someone who cares at all about science can argue that the blade stayed below 140F. Wow.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Aug 30, 2021)

ian said:


> Yikes. Not sure how someone who cares at all about science can argue that the blade stayed below 140F. Wow.



If you have any familiarity with Mike Stewart and/or Bark River it'll minimize the impact.


----------



## spaceconvoy (Aug 30, 2021)

branwell said:


> Best scene ever.
> 
> As to Ken, no, I had not seen that vid or its comment section and clearly he deleted a stack of comments. Didn't know of the other things you mention either. Got to say, I'm disappointed. I rather liked his stones


His products aren't actually bad, I had some CBN compound of his that I quite liked back when I was into stropping. They're just overpriced and fall short of his ridiculous claims. "Completely average rebranded Imanishi* stones" doesn't have the same mystique though.

*personal conjecture, should not be construed as legal advice


----------



## inferno (Aug 30, 2021)

the shapton glass and pro 1k is almost identical in speed. the glass is a high density resinoid stone and the pro is a magnesia stone. yet they feel almost indentical. and both are splash and go. i like both and own both. really can't go wrong with any of them.


----------



## Delat (Aug 31, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Here's the original video, not for the faint of heat-treat. @branwell does this seem like a normal comments section? @ian he's not actually objective, he just uses the pretense of science as a cudgel to silence any criticism of his products. Unless you have access to a scanning electron microscope he will not accept your arguments. Just a snake oil salesman with a 21st century veneer.
> 
> I've read flame wars with Jende Industries. "Black steel" and 0.025 micron diamond spray. Edges too delicate to slice chopsticks. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to logoff.




I like how the Bark River guy says the blade doesn’t get above 120-130F and yet it’s steaming hot even after dipping in water. The boiling point of water is 212F so yeah….. science.


----------



## Ruso (Sep 3, 2021)

May be its C vs F? Sometimes ppl get confused.


----------



## KingShapton (Jan 31, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> So down to pride 1000 and bester 1.2. I'll just get the pride 1000. And if I don't like it, I'll get the bester 1.2.


Just out of curiosity - did you buy the Pride 1000? And how is your experience with the stone? Are you happy with the stone? Or did you buy Bester stones afterwards?


----------



## shinyunggyun (Jan 31, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> Just out of curiosity - did you buy the Pride 1000? And how is your experience with the stone? Are you happy with the stone? Or did you buy Bester stones afterwards?


Yeah, I got the pride 1000. It is a very fast cutting 1000 grit stone, maybe the fastest. But you have to soak it for a long time or it will load up like crazy. It doesn't have the best tactile feel though. But later, I decided to stick with the chosera 600 for my blue steel knives. It cuts faster and feels better. And I don't usually finish at 1000 anyways. You can actually go straight to 3000, 5000, or even 6000 from a 600 grit stone, and you'll be fine.


----------



## KingShapton (Jan 31, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> Yeah, I got the pride 1000. It is a very fast cutting 1000 grit stone, maybe the fastest. But you have to soak it for a long time or it will load up like crazy. It doesn't have the best tactile feel though. But later, I decided to stick with the chosera 600 for my blue steel knives. It cuts faster and feels better. And I don't usually finish at 1000 anyways. You can actually go straight to 3000, 5000, or even 6000 from a 600 grit stone, and you'll be fine.


Thanks for the answer. That doesn't sound like the Pride Stones are worth trying.


----------



## branwell (Jan 31, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> That doesn't sound like the Pride Stones are worth trying.



Hmmm. I have a Pride 600 that they made for Murray Carters operation. Its basically a 600 grit version of a Cerax 1K. Maybe its an outlier, maybe its nothing like their normal line of stones, but its so good I do plan to try a Pride stone at some point, just not know because I'm on a splash and go kick.


----------



## KingShapton (Feb 1, 2022)

branwell said:


> Hmmm. I have a Pride 600 that they made for Murray Carters operation. Its basically a 600 grit version of a Cerax 1K. Maybe its an outlier, maybe its nothing like their normal line of stones, but its so good I do plan to try a Pride stone at some point, just not know because I'm on a splash and go kick.


Your description of the Pride 600 has aroused my interest. But your stone is a "prototype" as I know and I'm interested in the opinions of others who have the "normal" stones.

And there you won't find that much, and the opinions you find are "mixed". But even there you have to take into account the "personal feeling" of the respective user.

Lots of words to get to the point, I'm still pretty tired.

The bottom line is that I'm torn about these stones. But currently I have 4 other candidates and until I "done" them I'm just gathering information about the Pride Stones.


----------



## shinyunggyun (Feb 1, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> Your description of the Pride 600 has aroused my interest. But your stone is a "prototype" as I know and I'm interested in the opinions of others who have the "normal" stones.
> 
> And there you won't find that much, and the opinions you find are "mixed". But even there you have to take into account the "personal feeling" of the respective user.
> 
> ...


I tried both the 1000 and 600 pride stones. The overall quality of the 1000 stone is superior. The 600 dishes way too fast. When it comes to the best 600 stones, it's either the chosera or masahiro.


----------



## KingShapton (Feb 1, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> I tried both the 1000 and 600 pride stones. The overall quality of the 1000 stone is superior. The 600 dishes way too fast. When it comes to the best 600 stones, it's either the chosera or masahiro.


I have never heard of the Masahiro 600. I know that Masahiro offers some stones under their name, but I haven't found any experiences with these stones anywhere.

And the Chosera 600, it's a good stone but I personally don't like it. That brings us back to personal preferences and feelings.


----------



## KingShapton (Feb 1, 2022)

I just did a quick google search for the Masahiro 600, looks at first glance like a rebranded Suehiro stone


----------



## shinyunggyun (Feb 1, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> I just did a quick google search for the Masahiro 600, looks at first glance like a rebranded Suehiro stone


They are not the same. The 1000 series of both brands feel completely different. The 3000 series feel similar, but still noticeably different. And I don't think suehiro even has a 600 grit stone.


----------



## mpier (Feb 1, 2022)

So I gave away my 600 Chosera last year but decided to pick up another one on Amazon and it got here a couple of days ago but it looks a little strange, should I be concerned?


----------



## KingShapton (Feb 1, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> They are not the same. The 1000 series of both brands feel completely different. The 3000 series feel similar, but still noticeably different. And I don't think suehiro even has a 600 grit stone.











Suehiro Debado S Sharpening Stone, Grit 600 | Suehiro / Cerax | Dictum


Suehiro Debado S Sharpening Stone, Grit 600 from category Suehiro / Cerax with 30-day right of return at Dictum




www.dictum.com





Which series are you talking about when you compare the 1000 stones? Suehiro has many different series. Anyway, I don't want to question your judgment either, from the attached stand it just looks suspiciously like suehiro.


----------



## shinyunggyun (Feb 1, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> Suehiro Debado S Sharpening Stone, Grit 600 | Suehiro / Cerax | Dictum
> 
> 
> Suehiro Debado S Sharpening Stone, Grit 600 from category Suehiro / Cerax with 30-day right of return at Dictum
> ...


I was talking about cerax and ouka


----------



## shinyunggyun (Feb 1, 2022)

mpier said:


> So I gave away my 600 Chosera last year but decided to pick up another one on Amazon and it got here a couple of days ago but it looks a little strange, should I be concerned?


Mine is a solid navy blue color. I would be concerned.


----------



## lasagna pe (Feb 1, 2022)

I just received my Naniwa "Professional" (Chosera?) 1000 grit ceramic today - the green flavor. Tried it on the el cheapo Minonokuni (SK-5 steel ) to grind out the micro chipping by the heel (I don't want to talk about it). I like it! It has good feedback and feels like a traditional waterstone. Whereas the Naniwa "Super Stone" 5000 that I use for near-finishing has kind of a rubbery feel to it. Swarf is mostly gray/black, and after 15 minutes I still haven't gotten the micro chipping out. Had to move on to my day job tasks so I'll pick it up tomorrow. Overall, I'm pleased.


----------



## Kawa (Feb 1, 2022)

mpier said:


> So I gave away my 600 Chosera last year but decided to pick up another one on Amazon and it got here a couple of days ago but it looks a little strange, should I be concerned?



First I thought it was wet, but the lines are way to straight for that.
And after a few hours, it should be completely dry and even of colour anyway, be it light or dark (hard to compare a colour of the screen vs real life.)

The longer I look at it, the more I think the dark blue is the actual colour.

Isnt the light stuff some kind of dust or dirt?
Try cleaning it with a flatteningstone?


----------



## KingShapton (Feb 2, 2022)

mpier said:


> So I gave away my 600 Chosera last year but decided to pick up another one on Amazon and it got here a couple of days ago but it looks a little strange, should I be concerned?


If you haven't used the stone yet, I would make it easy for myself - complain about it and order a new stone from another dealer.

The images don't look normal for a Chosera 600, so why take the risk? Sure, you could remove the first 1-2 mm with a diamond plate, maybe it will look better then. Or maybe it's just an optical defect that doesn't affect the sharpening behavior.... But with a complaint/return you're on the safe side.

If something isn't right at first glance, don't think twice, complain immediately and don't bother about it. I've gotten used to that for orders. And it works well, I've been a lot less annoyed since then.


----------



## KingShapton (Feb 2, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> I was talking about cerax and ouka


Then we cleared that up. I was speaking of Suehiro in general and the full range of her series.


----------



## Kawa (Feb 2, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> If you haven't used the stone yet, I would make it easy for myself - complain about it and order a new stone from another dealer.
> 
> The images don't look normal for a Chosera 600, so why take the risk? Sure, you could remove the first 1-2 mm with a diamond plate, maybe it will look better then. Or maybe it's just an optical defect that doesn't affect the sharpening behavior.... But with a complaint/return you're on the safe side.
> 
> If something isn't right at first glance, don't think twice, complain immediately and don't bother about it. I've gotten used to that for orders. And it works well, I've been a lot less annoyed since then.



Yeah, if it's new absolutely.

Somehow I thought it was a 2nd hand


----------



## Bear (Feb 2, 2022)

mpier said:


> So I gave away my 600 Chosera last year but decided to pick up another one on Amazon and it got here a couple of days ago but it looks a little strange, should I be concerned?


Mine looked the same, it acted like there is some sort of sealer on it, I still have to hit it with some sic.


----------



## mpier (Feb 2, 2022)

Thanks for the feedback guys, my first 600 was definitely not like this, navy blue throughout. I had this same problem with my 2000, had to return it twice before I got one that looked like it was supposed to. This stone also feels smooth between the lines and rough around the edges.


----------



## DanielC (Feb 2, 2022)

Well I entered this thread looking for some good suggestions but stumbled upon a lot more.

I had been acquaintances with Ken Schwartz for years through Facebook. I later realized he was on CKTG but never knew why I never saw him here. I never talked to him on the phone but he did write me and converse with my over the years about natural stones. He enjoyed seeing the progress of my work as he had been a friend in my personal Facebook for years. I have many Nubatama stones. The 60 grit SiC stone, a 180 Bamboo, and then a 200,320,600 and 1k in the Platinum series. I did not like them at first but after I got to know the stones I enjoyed them.

However back in September of 2021, right after this thread started and ended back then, Ken Schwartz had unexpectedly passed away. I've still no idea why. His wife had just passed away earlier in the year.

I'm actually really bummed to find out he was not well recieved here. I can see your reasons why, and I hate to hear that he wouldn't play ball with everyone.

I was actually hoping to buy a particular natural stone from him last year but that is no longer possible.

Anyway. The platinum stones are nice to me, but I don't have many variety to compare them to. I mostly polish wide bevels with them in rough stages after machines.


----------



## Bear (Feb 3, 2022)

mpier said:


> Thanks for the feedback guys, my first 600 was definitely not like this, navy blue throughout. I had this same problem with my 2000, had to return it twice before I got one that looked like it was supposed to. This stone also feels smooth between the lines and rough around the edges.



My 1000 was worse, it had a sticky coating on the outside, it did come off after I conditioned on sic powder and glass.


----------

