# Name that one most underrated knife



## Gjackson98 (Jan 14, 2020)

Name one underrated knife from a maker that never received the recognition as it deserved.


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## Gjackson98 (Jan 14, 2020)

To me personally, the most underrated knife I have used is my Munetoshi honyaki gyuto. It has been my daily driver for a month now. After thinning, it is a darn good knife, the steel and heat treat is amazing, profile is pretty good, price is very reasonable as well.


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## Briochy (Jan 14, 2020)

Yoshikane SKD/White #2 gyuto is amazing imo. OK food release, but is very buttery through dense vegetables. The profile is on a flat side, but you can still rock it, which I do sometimes. I am pretty amateur, but compared to my other knives, heat treat is good enough for its price (definitely nothing special tbh). It's mostly the grind that I like.


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## Barmoley (Jan 15, 2020)

I think Kaeru SLD is underrated so much value there.


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## YG420 (Jan 15, 2020)

Itinomon ss gyuto, miss that knife...


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## Briochy (Jan 15, 2020)

YG420 said:


> Itinomon ss gyuto, miss that knife...


What's good about it? Hadn't started my hobby back then before it was discontinued.


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## Matus (Jan 15, 2020)

Munetoshi Honyaki 210 - a near laser grind, fantastic HT. Very different beast from the 240 (which is on the workhorse side). My most used knife at the moment.


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## YG420 (Jan 15, 2020)

Briochy said:


> What's good about it? Hadn't started my hobby back then before it was discontinued.


Pretty much perfect balance of performance and value. Cuts like butter and food release aint bad. Also sharpens up really quick and nice. And at that time it was priced sub $200 if I remember correctly.


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## M1k3 (Jan 15, 2020)

Kashima Sanjo (Yoshikane). Takamura Chromax. I think both punch above their price point.

Edit: I failed reading comprehension....


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## khashy (Jan 15, 2020)

Takamura Uchigumo. This is as close to a perfect blade as any knife gets - cutting performance and looks


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## Gjackson98 (Jan 15, 2020)

khashy said:


> Takamura Uchigumo. This is as close to a perfect blade as any knife gets - cutting performance and looks


I have heard many good things about them, but never had a chance to try one.


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## khashy (Jan 15, 2020)

Gjackson98 said:


> I have heard many good things about them, but never had a chance to try one.



Try one if you get a chance. It will surprise you


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## Ochazuke (Jan 15, 2020)

Kiwi - for when friends and family visit


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## Michi (Jan 15, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> I think Kaeru SLD is underrated so much value there.


+1 for that. That's a really good knife.


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## ashy2classy (Jan 15, 2020)

I'll continue screaming WAKUI!!! 

Here are my nashiji 270 gyuto and 150 petty with Masur birch handles.


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 15, 2020)

Deleted dupe.


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 15, 2020)

Briochy said:


> Yoshikane SKD/White #2 gyuto is amazing imo. OK food release, but is very buttery through dense vegetables. The profile is on a flat side, but you can still rock it, which I do sometimes. I am pretty amateur, but compared to my other knives, heat treat is good enough for its price (definitely nothing special tbh). It's mostly the grind that I like.



I second the Yoshikane, #1 bang for the buck! Mine a 180mm w2, the grind seems to be plain flat but it cuts better than my more expensive knives. It’s cheap because looks like it’s from flat stock, no wavey forged cladding line, just a straight line. Probably a stock removal knife with no forging. 

It is underrated because it’s too good. I dislike it somewhat because it gets into my justifications for more expensive knives. 

When I compare knives, I leave out the Yoshikane on purpose, lol.


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## TRPV4 (Jan 15, 2020)

Ochazuke said:


> Kiwi - for when friends and family visit


hell yeah


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## Lars (Jan 15, 2020)

I agree that the Itinnomen SS is great, but honestly so are the other Itinnomons.


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## TRPV4 (Jan 15, 2020)

Briochy said:


> Yoshikane SKD/White #2 gyuto is amazing imo. OK food release, but is very buttery through dense vegetables. The profile is on a flat side, but you can still rock it, which I do sometimes. I am pretty amateur, but compared to my other knives, heat treat is good enough for its price (definitely nothing special tbh). It's mostly the grind that I like.



Would you say the SKD hammered and W#2 amekiri perform similarly?


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## Nagakin (Jan 15, 2020)

TRPV4 said:


> Would you say the SKD hammered and W#2 amekiri perform similarly?


I haven't used them, but have held them. The SKD is heftier and I prefer the extra weight in my hand versus the W#2.


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## zizirex (Jan 15, 2020)

ashy2classy said:


> I'll continue screaming WAKUI!!!
> 
> Here are my nashiji 270 gyuto and 150 petty with Masur birch handles.
> 
> View attachment 68881


+1

I have the Migaki, it is still one of the best performing knife for the Value.


Second, I like Anryu, it is one of the best knives for the money. Good heat treatment and good middle weight grind.


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## Briochy (Jan 15, 2020)

TRPV4 said:


> Would you say the SKD hammered and W#2 amekiri perform similarly?


Honestly, I haven't held the SKD version, but I just assumed they are the same. I have the white #2 version and I love it! When I first tried the Yoshikane, I immediately thought to myself, "Why is this knife not the most recommended knife on subreddit and KKF already?".


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## McMan (Jan 15, 2020)

I'm with @ashy2classy... Wakui.


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## Briochy (Jan 15, 2020)

ashy2classy said:


> I'll continue screaming WAKUI!!!
> 
> Here are my nashiji 270 gyuto and 150 petty with Masur birch handles.
> 
> View attachment 68881


Do you know if this Wakui has the same grind as the tsuchime KnS one?


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## GorillaGrunt (Jan 15, 2020)

Not Tanaka or Munetoshi or Wakui because it’s well known that these are excellent, although maybe Munetoshi for honyaki qualifies. Definitely Yoshikane and Kaeru; I’d also say blue steel forged in Tosa. I know some of the Tosa knives are by Tadayoshi who I believe is the Zakuri smith, others I have no idea who makes them but they’re the best around for butchery and specialized tasks. Not gyuto grinds, rustically constructed, but amazingly tough steel that takes a hell of an edge with ease.

Also maybe Shibata Kashima, looks to be an unremarkable laser in an unremarkable steel in a KS profile from a source of questionable reputation - but I kept it over the Tadatsuna, Suisin IH, the KS itself, and a few others. It’s always in my bag and when that’s the one I need nothing else will do.


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## Nemo (Jan 15, 2020)

TRPV4 said:


> Would you say the SKD hammered and W#2 amekiri perform similarly?


Nope.

My SKD tsuchime is a thicker grind with excellent food release (and pretty thin behind the edge given It's thickness). It is said that some of them are much thinner but I have not seen this for myself.

The Amekiri is an altogether thinner knife.

Edited to add: my Yoshis perform better than my Kaeru (although at a higher price point).


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## Briochy (Jan 15, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Nope.
> 
> My SKD tsuchime is a thicker grind with excellent food release (and pretty thin behind the edge given It's thickness). It is said that some of them are much thinner but I have not seen this for myself.
> 
> ...


I guess I'll have to buy the SKD version to try out now


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## Nemo (Jan 15, 2020)

I think that Ryusen Blazen probably fits in this thread.

Also Shiro Kamo's Syousin Suminagashi.


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## M1k3 (Jan 15, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Also Shiro Kamo's Syousin Suminagashi.



Probably his iron clad AS also?


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## brooksie967 (Jan 15, 2020)

Masashi SLD. 

Considering this dude banged with Yoshikane for who knows how long i'm surprised his knives don't get more traction. His laserish grinds are on point despite the torpedo shape of the gyutos that is seemingly what keeps people away. Flat spot for days yet the not so common tip style allows for rocking where it and the flat intersect. Taller than average, my 270 runs about 58mm i believe) is something that I notice people ordering from western makers yet was being done by him before much of the hype. To top it all off, his SLD heat treat is truly something to brag about; it's perhaps the toothiest steel i've used to date and just lasts and lasts and lasts through even the most acidic cutting target!


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## NO ChoP! (Jan 15, 2020)

The SKD hammered has been around a long time. I have a 270 suji that is at least 10 years old. They definitely had their run with popularity on forums of old. 

The newer nashiji is a different animal. A bit thinner, leaner. The SKD is rather robust imho. 

I think its a good example of Yoshikanes ability to make timeless pieces, as well as keep up with more modern trends.


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## ChefShramrock (Jan 15, 2020)

Masashi sld. Really impressive knives.I have a 210mm gyuto & a 270mm suji. At first. I hated the profile, but after giving it an honest try, it has become one of my top knives. I also love my Kaeru. I only have a 150mm petty, but it always finds its way on to my cutting board.


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## YG420 (Jan 15, 2020)

Forgot to mention kochi too


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## parbaked (Jan 15, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Edited to add: my Yoshis perform better than my Kaeru (although at a higher price point).



I had a different experience. My Kaeru performed much better than my Yoshikane SKD, even after Bernal thinned it.
I would definitely try a W2 Yoshi, if they are thinner.

I think the Misono Swedish carbon knives are underrated given their quality and consistency...


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## MrHiggins (Jan 15, 2020)

Sukenari hap40 240 gyuto.


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## Nemo (Jan 16, 2020)

parbaked said:


> I had a different experience. My Kaeru performed much better than my Yoshikane SKD, even after Bernal thinned it.
> I would definitely try a W2 Yoshi, if they are thinner.



Depends on what you are after, I guess. My Yoshi SKD Tsuchime is certainly a thicker than my Kaeru, but food release is significantly better with the Yoshi (more than would be expected given the difference in thinness).

Yes, the Amekiri are much thinner. I don't know if this applies to all of the white2 Yoshis or just the Amekiri.


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## Nemo (Jan 16, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Probably his iron clad AS also?



I only have the suji version of his AS, which is my daily driver suji. It's a steal for what you get. I don't know how the gyuto performs but the guy can make a knife, so I would assume it's ok.


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## Nemo (Jan 16, 2020)

MrHiggins said:


> Sukenari hap40 240 gyuto.


I quite like their YXR7 too.


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## daddy yo yo (Jan 16, 2020)

ashy2classy said:


> I'll continue screaming WAKUI!!!
> 
> Here are my nashiji 270 gyuto and 150 petty with Masur birch handles.
> 
> View attachment 68881


YOU, sir!!!

Love the 240 you sold!

Mazaki is well known as a good knife. Misono Swedish Carbon, I‘d recommend. Good price, good performance, fantastic F&F and consistency!


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 16, 2020)

Before the hype train there was Yoshikane.


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## Benuser (Jan 16, 2020)

Pallarès Solsona, C60 @60Rc. Prices around €20-30 depending on the size.


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## Runner_up (Jan 16, 2020)

Gjackson98 said:


> To me personally, the most underrated knife I have used is my Munetoshi honyaki gyuto. It has been my daily driver for a month now. After thinning, it is a darn good knife, the steel and heat treat is amazing, profile is pretty good, price is very reasonable as well.



I'll second this. I have both the 240 and the 210 and they are excellent even though there hasn't been a ton of discussion about them. The 210 is very thin, with better finishing out of the box than the 240 I have. I also like that the hamon on the 210 is a fair amount higher than on the 240. The steel is excellent.


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## rocketman (Jan 17, 2020)

Benuser said:


> Pallarès Solsona, C60 @60Rc. Prices around €20-30 depending on the size.


I am intrigued by your post, and looked up Pallares on line. Nice catalog.. Can you tell me what the catalog numbers of the knifes you recommend are..
They make such a broad array of products I am at a loss to see which you suggest, and I would rather go with an expert.

Thanks
wak


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## Benuser (Jan 17, 2020)

rocketman said:


> I am intrigued by your post, and looked up Pallares on line. Nice catalog.. Can you tell me what the catalog numbers of the knifes you recommend are..
> ...
> wak


These are the ones I own and had in mind. 
https://www.damplank.nl/bakery/pallares-solsona-groentemes-groot-17/

https://www.damplank.nl/bakery/pallares-solsona-koksmesgroentemes-40/


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## Matus (Jan 17, 2020)

I am getting a bit the impression that Toyama stainless-clad knives are underrated - judging from the interest in new and used.


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## Barmoley (Jan 17, 2020)

Matus said:


> I am getting a bit the impression that Toyama stainless-clad knives are underrated - judging from the interest in new and used.


I have a feeling that people are looking for older Toyama, because they were more unique. They are great cutters of workhorse persuasion, from a food release and weight stand point. The new ones are great cutters too, but they seem to be significantly lighter and thinner. This might make the new ones better general purpose knives, but they lost some of that unique, single minded purpose of ingredient destruction that older Toyama have. Heat treat seems to be the same and all are great knives, but older ones from iron cladding that changes over time, stinky handles, weight, thickness and the fact that they are not made anymore just have the character that the new and improved ones lost a little.


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## Matus (Jan 17, 2020)

Well, yes, the stainless clad Toyamas do seem a little lighter across the board - as an example - my friend has a 270 carbon and stainless clad gyutos. The stainless one weights 240g and the carbon 276(ish). So while the stainless clad is lighter, for many it will be closer to 'medium weight', but I do understand what you mean with the 'ingredient destruction'. Yes - patina has its charm, yet I would have not expected to see such a difference in interest.


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## Barmoley (Jan 17, 2020)

Matus said:


> Well, yes, the stainless clad Toyamas do seem a little lighter across the board - as an example - my friend has a 270 carbon and stainless clad gyutos. The stainless one weights 240g and the carbon 276(ish). So while the stainless clad is lighter, for many it will be closer to 'medium weight', but I do understand what you mean with the 'ingredient destruction'. Yes - patina has its charm, yet I would have not expected to see such a difference in interest.


Well, for one, anything that is not made anymore is always better

New ones are great knives and I would argue could be better tools, not sure how much harder the stainless cladding is to thin, but for most the new ones might work better or at least as good.


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## thebradleycrew (Jan 17, 2020)

I would say that for Western makers, I think Shi.Han is underrated. His knives are excellent and all that I've tried (five) have had excellent heat treatment and feel wonderful on the stones. Good balanced geometry (nothing extreme). He puts the time in to get to know the steel before producing it. Definitely traditionally (Japanese) influenced. 

For Japanese 'smiths, I would echo others comments about Masashi.


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## Customfan (Jan 17, 2020)

I still think Mazaki is a nice performing blade overall....

For higher end... .. Mizuno doesn't get all the love it deserves

completely agree on Toyamas and Wakui...


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 17, 2020)

Matus said:


> Well, yes, the stainless clad Toyamas do seem a little lighter across the board - as an example - my friend has a 270 carbon and stainless clad gyutos. The stainless one weights 240g and the carbon 276(ish). So while the stainless clad is lighter, for many it will be closer to 'medium weight', but I do understand what you mean with the 'ingredient destruction'. Yes - patina has its charm, yet I would have not expected to see such a difference in interest.


I echo the New stainless clad Toyama. Out of the box, my 210mm beat everything I have including Kurosaki, Mazaki, Shigefusa, its neck to neck with my Twice tinned TF, I am still testing These two. 

The new Toyama has a subtle s-grind, the bevel is convex, plus the top half is slightly thinner than the middle.


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## minibatataman (Jan 18, 2020)

thebradleycrew said:


> I would say that for Western makers, I think Shi.Han is underrated. His knives are excellent and all that I've tried (five) have had excellent heat treatment and feel wonderful on the stones. Good balanced geometry (nothing extreme). He puts the time in to get to know the steel before producing it. Definitely traditionally (Japanese) influenced.
> 
> For Japanese 'smiths, I would echo others comments about Masashi.



I think Shi.Han has the same issue masashi has. The unique profile is polarizing. Many people just can't get used to it.
Honestly if there's a western knife maker who's work is underrated it's Martell.


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## pgugger (Jan 18, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I echo the New stainless clad Toyama. Out of the box, my 210mm beat everything I have including Kurosaki, Mazaki, Shigefusa, its neck to neck with my Twice tinned TF, I am still testing These two.
> 
> The new Toyama has a subtle s-grind, the bevel is convex, plus the top half is slightly thinner than the middle.



I love my new Toyama 240 mm stainless clad gyuto - one of my favorites now (along with my Konosuke FM). I didn't notice an S-grind and assumed mine is convex but I'll have to check later. Toyama seems well loved on this forum (perhaps underappreciated on some others forums), but I also get the sense that this stainless model might be underrated here. That said, I haven't tried the older carbon clad, so can't compare performance. 

I can also confirm the stainless run a little lighter than the old ones, though. Mine is 209 g.


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## Matus (Jan 18, 2020)

I do not care about the sentiments - but this thread will not be turned to witch-hunt of Martell. Use PMs if you feel the need. Uninformed may use the search engine or simply look at Dave’s subforum - it is all there.


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## Elliot (Jan 18, 2020)

Apologies to those who asked, but I will follow Matus’ wishes. 
I make zero comment on quality, as I have no experience whatsoever and won’t claim otherwise.
Merely an ethical choice.


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## M1k3 (Jan 18, 2020)

Hearsay is so overrated.

HSC Knives are underrated, IMO.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 18, 2020)

Elliot said:


> Apologies to those who asked, but I will follow Matus’ wishes.
> I make zero comment on quality, as I have no experience whatsoever and won’t claim otherwise.
> Merely an ethical choice.


Wasn’t aware of any Matus expressed wishes........ maybe one of you can expound?


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## Barmoley (Jan 18, 2020)

Performance and quality wise Martell knives are excellent and definitely under rated same for HSC and Newham.


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## Marek07 (Jan 18, 2020)

Polarizing maker, unpopular knife style and even more unpopular size but I'd nominate Teruyasu Fujiwara's 165mm nashiji nakiri. Cost just $95 at the time and just flies through food superbly.


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## minibatataman (Jan 18, 2020)

Apologies if I stirred up any past stuff, i wasn't aware there was issued between Martell and some members.. as I know nothing about that, I'll keep the talk about the knives themselves, and they seem to be as good as any western made ones, but they get looked over a lot.


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## GorillaGrunt (Jan 19, 2020)

I’ve had two Martells, both are just so, so good. One is one of the knives I might really never sell. I wouldn’t call them underrated because I always thought of them as highly regarded commensurate with their quality and performance. Then again that was a couple years ago — I wouldn’t have put Yoshikane on the list either because those used to be super popular but now I guess they’re not.

Following from that there are probably a few more makers out there who make great knives but don’t get a lot of attention!


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## Codered (Jan 19, 2020)

My pain is there are so many good smiths with impeccable knives:heat treats, grinds, fit and finish and are underrated. Yet this community seems to favor some with serious problems just because of publicity. Are we that superficial? We have so many good alternatives out there that we should not turn a blind eye on flaws.
I will put Yoshikatzu Ikeda as one of the underrated smiths. He is on par with Keijiro Doi in terms of forging and attention to detail. Yet so humble


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## Iggy (Jan 19, 2020)

Heiji Carbon...


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## QCDawg (Jan 19, 2020)

Nashiji Mazaki Gyuto. ( I have 210). I 2nd the Kaeru vote too. (240, I beat on that thing daily).


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## Panamapeet (Jan 19, 2020)

Codered said:


> My pain is there are so many good smiths with impeccable knives:heat treats, grinds, fit and finish and are underrated. Yet this community seems to favor some with serious problems just because of publicity. Are we that superficial? We have so many good alternatives out there that we should not turn a blind eye on flaws.
> I will put Yoshikatzu Ikeda as one of the underrated smiths. He is on par with Keijiro Doi in terms of forging and attention to detail. Yet so humble



Please explain in which ways Yoshikazu Ikeda has an above average level of attention to detail in your view, and how he is underrated


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 19, 2020)

Mazaki is one of the most popular right now, not sure qualify as underrated either. My 210 Nashiji was a great cutter for most stuff, but wedged big time when I cut a watermelon. My stainless clad 210 Toyama went right through.

Mazaki has studied under Kato and use near identical WH profile minus the sophisticated convex grind. However, I’d be surprised if Kato 210mm doesn’t wedge a Watermelon. Can anyone with Kato 210 try it on watermelon?


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## Matus (Jan 19, 2020)

I would not call Yoshikazu Ikeda underrated - different vendors sell his knives - often however under their own brand. These knives are usually well above 500 $/€ category, so not everyone can afford them. Plus we (as) usually do not know who ground them. That makes a huge difference. I can only say that Ikeda’s HT is top - from white all the way up to super blue steel.


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## MAS4T0 (Jan 20, 2020)

Customfan said:


> For higher end... .. Mizuno doesn't get all the love it deserves



This.


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## preizzo (Jan 21, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Mazaki is one of the most popular right now, not sure qualify as underrated either. My 210 Nashiji was a great cutter for most stuff, but wedged big time when I cut a watermelon. My stainless clad 210 Toyama went right through.
> 
> Mazaki has studied under Kato and use near identical WH profile minus the sophisticated convex grind. However, I’d be surprised if Kato 210mm doesn’t wedge a Watermelon. Can anyone with Kato 210 try it on watermelon?


Mine it doesn't wedges.....


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## QCDawg (Jan 21, 2020)

preizzo said:


> Mine it doesn't wedges.....


Which one? You have 748 Mazaki. At last count.


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 21, 2020)

preizzo said:


> Mine it doesn't wedges.....



Can you clarify what you were referring to?
Mazaki or Kato?
Was it on whole Watermelon?


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## QCDawg (Jan 21, 2020)

Every Maz is like a snowflake. My 240 migaki is very thin and would rip a whole watermelon. My nashiji 210 is a bit more stout. But it would rip a whole watermelon too. No katos here. @priezzo can elaborate


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## panda (Jan 21, 2020)

tanaka ginsan 270


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## Garner Harrison (Jan 21, 2020)

panda said:


> tanaka ginsan 270



I have a Tanaka ginsan 210mm and it gets crazy sharp. If I want to slice tomato or cucumber really thin, this is my go to knife over my Mazaki. 

Edit: This is Shigeki Tanaka right? There are way too many Tanaka's


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## kevpenbanc (Jan 22, 2020)

Masashi Kobo SLD.
Not the best knife I have, but the most underrated, and a definite keeper.


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## Benuser (Jan 22, 2020)

Masahiro Virgin Carbon. Unexpensive, basic F&F, carefully ground, fantastic steel.
Extremely asymmetric. Available in a left-handed (inverted) version as well.


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## GorillaGrunt (Jan 22, 2020)

See, I would disqualify S. Tanaka, because his price point is lower but the knives are well known to perform extremely well. Masashi maybe, is that like Yoshikane where they used to get more buzz here? I really liked mine. Until recently I might have included Y. Tanaka though - everybody was all about the Fujiyama but who’s this guy?

+1 Masahiro VC, the steel is definitely top notch.


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## MowgFace (Jan 22, 2020)

+1 for Itinomonn StainLESS.


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## inferno (Jan 25, 2020)

Gjackson98 said:


> Name one underrated knife from a maker that never received the recognition as it deserved.



hattori forums line. very good. best F/F of anything below 1k. its SS, takes a good edge, fairly tough. 
mac dimpled cryoed santoku. best allround knife ever made. not very good F/F though, but you can do that yourself with a sandpaper. thats why its cheap. 

i also think the black dragon series from shiki is nice. its lightyears ahead of the rest of the crap no matter what price.


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## dafox (Jan 25, 2020)

inferno said:


> hattori forums line. very good. best F/F of anything below 1k. its SS, takes a good edge, fairly tough.
> mac dimpled cryoed santoku. best allround knife ever made. not very good F/F though, but you can do that yourself with a sandpaper. thats why its cheap.
> 
> i also think the black dragon series from shiki is nice. its lightyears ahead of the rest of the crap no matter what price.


Is the Hatori vg solid or clad?


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## MrHiggins (Jan 25, 2020)

dafox said:


> Is the Hatori vg solid or clad?


Mono VG10. I love my Hattori honesuki.


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## dafox (Jan 25, 2020)

MrHiggins said:


> Mono VG10. I love my Hattori honesuki.


Cool!


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## panda (Jan 26, 2020)

Benuser said:


> Masahiro Virgin Carbon. Unexpensive, basic F&F, carefully ground, fantastic steel.
> Extremely asymmetric. Available in a left-handed (inverted) version as well.


its very budget friendly too


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## labor of love (Jan 26, 2020)

@thebradleycrew beat me too it. Shihan’s work really stands out to me and I’m surprised his stuff doesn’t get talked about more often.


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## MrHiggins (Jan 26, 2020)

labor of love said:


> @thebradleycrew beat me too it. Shihan’s work really stands out to me and I’m surprised his stuff doesn’t get talked about more often.


+1 

The wrought iron/white #2 gyuto from him is nothing short of a masterpiece. To those who say Shi Han's knives have a strange profile, here's a picture of mine. Lookin' good to me!


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## preizzo (Jan 27, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Can you clarify what you were referring to?
> Mazaki or Kato?
> Was it on whole Watermelon?


Mazaki


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## labor of love (Jan 27, 2020)

preizzo said:


> Mazaki


Mazaki did a great job on both my new Watanabe and Toyama.


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## Neville Lin (Jan 27, 2020)

MrHiggins said:


> +1
> 
> The wrought iron/white #2 gyuto from him is nothing short of a masterpiece. To those who say Shi Han's knives have a strange profile, here's a picture of mine. Lookin' good to me!
> 
> View attachment 69907



Shehan is also great to work with, I contacted him directly and asked for a flatter profile, he had no problem doing it for no extra cost. I remember someone saying they asked for a lower tip as well.


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## labor of love (Jan 27, 2020)

Neville Lin said:


> Shehan is also great to work with, I contacted him directly and asked for a flatter profile, he had no problem doing it for no extra cost. I remember someone saying they asked for a lower tip as well.


Yes, I made the same request. I think he gets this request pretty often.


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 28, 2020)

labor of love said:


> Mazaki did a great job on both my new Watanabe and Toyama.


Lol, I knew it, Mazaki makes everything


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## Neville Lin (Jan 28, 2020)

labor of love said:


> Yes, I made the same request. I think he gets this request pretty often.



I think I actually asked for the flatter profile after seeing the pics of yours! It looked absolutely gorgeous.


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## henkle (May 30, 2020)

Why is he polarizing??? (I'm a noob).


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## henkle (May 30, 2020)

Marek07 said:


> Polarizing maker, unpopular knife style and even more unpopular size but I'd nominate Teruyasu Fujiwara's 165mm nashiji nakiri. Cost just $95 at the time and just flies through food superbly.


Why is he a polarizing maker??? (I'm a noob, sorry)


----------



## minibatataman (May 30, 2020)

henkle said:


> Why is he a polarizing maker??? (I'm a noob, sorry)


TF used to have a lot of quality control issues. Everyone agrees the HT is top notch but some don't think that's worth the wildly unpredictable F&F and grind issues. the issues seem to have lessened of late with better QC and people knowing how to order and what to look for.


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## Blerghle (May 30, 2020)

They were mentioned earlier, but blue steel knives from Tosa can be amazing steel, especially considering the price. The blue #1 Zakuri I've used and abused for years takes an incredible edge quite easily.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (May 30, 2020)

minibatataman said:


> TF used to have a lot of quality control issues. Everyone agrees the HT is top notch but some don't think that's worth the wildly unpredictable F&F and grind issues. the issues seem to have lessened of late with better QC and people knowing how to order and what to look for.


All true, but I think he was referring to Mazaki.


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## M1k3 (May 30, 2020)

Mazaki-bot!


----------



## ma_sha1 (May 30, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> All true, but I think he was referring to Mazaki.



Mazaki at 2-300 is a great value, even the Profile & grind kept changing, it’s not polarizing as they all Polarizing well. 

Perhaps the Mazaki dammy at $1400 was polarizing?


----------



## Ruso (May 30, 2020)

Probably a little bit across the grain but Tramontina churrasco serrated “steak” knives are very underrated. I have 4 of them, picked up for couple bucks each and they have been all around champs for me. It’s a pity that my local store switched to similar wusthofs (which are crap in comparison), and now the store is Out Of Business.


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## Corradobrit1 (May 30, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> =
> 
> Perhaps the Mazaki dammy at $1400 was polarizing?


Ya think. especially with shonky grind and polish


----------



## danemonji (May 30, 2020)

One of the most underrated knife makers on our forum is takeshi saji. He makes beautiful knives and has a wonderful damascus with ironwood handles and he is very appreciated in Japan. Unfortunately I can't remember anyone here talking about his knives.


----------



## Garm (May 30, 2020)

danemonji said:


> One of the most underrated knife makers on our forum is takeshi saji. He makes beautiful knives and has a wonderful damascus with ironwood handles and he is very appreciated in Japan. Unfortunately I can't remember anyone here talking about his knives.


Completely agree!
I bought a hunting knife made by him a couple of years back as a gift when my dad turned sixty. Very impressive.
Since then I've gotten the chance to test drive a 240 mm gyuto in R2 which performed great, and looked damn sexy and alluring while doing so.
He never gets much mentions here on the forum, but I think his blades(metallurgy and all that aside, which is a given), are quite unique and have a very distinct character. I remember I loved the handle shape for the profile on that particular knife, but I guess that combo is more or less standard with his gyutos.

I would tout his work more often, but I'm generally a bit cautious when it comes to giving out either glowing or very critical mentions/recs when I have such a small sample size to refer to.
Saji is the real deal in my book!


----------



## Corradobrit1 (May 30, 2020)

Is that the same maker who produces the rainbow dammy?


----------



## ma_sha1 (May 30, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Is that the same maker who produces the rainbow dammy?



Yes, I am not sure I want copper in the blade thou, it’s toxic. I’ve also read a poor review of one of his petty, not on KKF, really bad review that turned me off. 

I’d like someone else to buy his gyuto & review it here, but he makes a lot of Vg10 though.


----------



## Malcolm Johnson (May 30, 2020)

I’ve been thinking of shihan knives for a while and this thread is making me want one even more... especially with a flatter profile and lower tip...


----------



## labor of love (May 30, 2020)

Ginrei (shihan) petty is available 





WTS - Bunch of knives and a Gesshin cleaver


Maybe he called it 1.3 carbon core because catchyblue or 1.2419.05 is a 1.3% carbon tungsten steel. Yes. That's why I think that is what it is.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## danemonji (May 30, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Yes, I am not sure I want copper in the blade thou, it’s toxic. I’ve also read a poor review of one of his petty, not on KKF, really bad review that turned me off.
> 
> I’d like someone else to buy his gyuto & review it here, but he makes a lot of Vg10 though.


I'm not going to be Saji's advocate but I will say that I have read so many poor subjective reviews of Kato and Shigefusa and Tsukasa and TF, that this argument "i read a poor review about a petty" is not really a good judgement criteria on a man's work.
Second the rainbow damascus is something that Tsukasa Hinoura and Bill Burke are using and if you search mokume gane on epicedge you can see some knife examples. I am pretty sure that if the cladding was toxic they wouldn't use it. In fact this technique requires great metalurgical prowess to bind such different metals( copper, brass and nickel) together that very few smiths can achieve it and it shows great skill. Oh and funny fact, all water pipes in US are made of copper


----------



## GorillaGrunt (May 30, 2020)

Slightly different; it’s something about copper and acidic foods, same reason unlined copper cookware is special purpose for eggs and sweets and such. That said the contact area and contact time is far lower with layers in a knife blade than with cooking on a pure copper surface.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (May 30, 2020)

I'm gonna submit Shigefusa. Come at me, bro.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (May 30, 2020)

danemonji said:


> I'm not going to be Saji's advocate but I will say that I have read so many poor subjective reviews of Kato and Shigefusa and Tsukasa and TF, that this argument "i read a poor review about a petty" is not really a good judgement criteria on a man's work.
> Second the rainbow damascus is something that Tsukasa Hinoura and Bill Burke are using and if you search mokume gane on epicedge you can see some knife examples. I am pretty sure that if the cladding was toxic they wouldn't use it. In fact this technique requires great metalurgical prowess to bind such different metals( copper, brass and nickel) together that very few smiths can achieve it and it shows great skill. Oh and funny fact, all water pipes in US are made of copper


Oh no, I better throw all my pot still single malt whisky away.


----------



## danemonji (May 30, 2020)

Off topic, looking for a rainbow damascus example i found this Bill Burke that just blew my mind :


Epicurean Edge: Japanese and European professional chefs knives


The profile and the copper accents. Need to start looking for some Burke knives.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (May 30, 2020)

danemonji said:


> Off topic, looking for a rainbow damascus example i found this Bill Burke that just blew my mind :
> 
> 
> Epicurean Edge: Japanese and European professional chefs knives
> ...


I see a lot of Ashi Honyaki DNA in that knife.


----------



## Marek07 (May 30, 2020)

henkle said:


> Why is he a polarizing maker??? (I'm a noob, sorry)


What @minibatataman said!


----------



## knifeknight (May 31, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Yes, I am not sure I want copper in the blade thou, it’s toxic.


That‘s nonsense. Copper in blades is about as toxic as in kitchen pots people use since centuries.

About Takeshi I agree - he‘s making wonderful knives...


----------



## ma_sha1 (May 31, 2020)

knifeknight said:


> That‘s nonsense. Copper in blades is about as toxic as in kitchen pots people use since centuries.



What’s nonsense are the internet warriors who doesn’t hesitate on passing mis-judgements without doing research. 

Many things practiced over centuries haves been found harmful. 

Copper pots could make you sick, the heavy metal leaches into your diet when cooking with acidic food, & it’s harmful, read it for yourself:






Cooking With Your Mom's Copper Pots Could Make You Sick


Copper pots can be an absolute dream addition to your kitchen but also a nightmare to maintain and in some cases, they can be dangerous to use.




www.thedailymeal.com


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy (May 31, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> What’s nonsense are the internet warriors who doesn’t hesitate on passing mis-judgements without doing research.
> 
> Many things practiced over centuries haves been found harmful.
> 
> ...


I'm far from a scientist, but if they could make you sick I'm sure there would be a public uproar in today's nonstop information delivery.


----------



## Migraine (May 31, 2020)

I have no clue whether copper in knives is toxic or not without looking into it, but 'people have done it for centuries so it must be fine' is a terrible argument. People made pipes out of lead for example. And filled everything going with asbestos.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (May 31, 2020)

I hope nobody is using teflon coated pans or Scotchgard treated items. Its thought everyone on the planet, especially the developed world, is contaminated with the chemicals used in its production. This was an eye-opening BBC documentary.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy (May 31, 2020)

Migraine said:


> I have no clue whether copper in knives is toxic or not without looking into it, but 'people have done it for centuries so it must be fine' is a terrible argument. People made pipes out of lead for example. And filled everything going with asbestos.


While true, those are now known toxic items and were discovered before the information age. Today's standards for information is way different than ever in history of the world. Not saying something won't be found to be toxic in the future, just that it'll be well known in minutes.


----------



## SHOWERDOOKIE (May 31, 2020)

I think copper is only toxic in pans that aren’t bonded with another metal and use the copper as the actual cooking surface that comes j to contact with the food, I don’t think using it in contact with your food has any negative effects in a general sense as long as you’re using the pans as directed, I have seen people invert pans and heat the basin for different things.

also a quick edit: I’m far from any kind of scientist, this is just my understanding


----------



## Ruso (May 31, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> While true, those are now known toxic items and were discovered before the information age. Today's standards for information is way different than ever in history of the world. Not saying something won't be found to be toxic in the future, just that it'll be well known in minutes.


Where can you buy a modern bare copper pan? AFAIK the standard is to clad the coper or at least line the cooking surface with another material.


----------



## kevpenbanc (May 31, 2020)

Garm said:


> Completely agree!
> I bought a hunting knife made by him a couple of years back as a gift when my dad turned sixty. Very impressive.
> Since then I've gotten the chance to test drive a 240 mm gyuto in R2 which performed great, and looked damn sexy and alluring while doing so.
> He never gets much mentions here on the forum, but I think his blades(metallurgy and all that aside, which is a given), are quite unique and have a very distinct character. I remember I loved the handle shape for the profile on that particular knife, but I guess that combo is more or less standard with his gyutos.
> ...



I've got one of Takeshi Sajis VG10 blades, a 180mm gyuto, one of the first 4 japanese blades I bought and used a lot by my wife.
Along with a rainbow damascus 180mm bunka, quite heavy(ish) at 227g but a very good cutter.
Also got to try one of his 240mm diamond damascus gyutos.
All very good knives and all very beautiful.
They've never come up in my consideration of the best knives I have, but they are all very good knives and I have no regret owning the 2 I have.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy (May 31, 2020)

Ruso said:


> Where can you buy a modern bare copper pan? AFAIK the standard is to clad the coper or at least line the cooking surface with another material.


Not what I was getting at, but no clue. The original point was the copper in knives, which probably has some cladding.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (May 31, 2020)

Ruso said:


> Where can you buy a modern bare copper pan? AFAIK the standard is to clad the coper or at least line the cooking surface with another material.


Exactly. They're tinned, even the vintage ones.


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## Qapla' (May 31, 2020)

Ruso said:


> Where can you buy a modern bare copper pan? AFAIK the standard is to clad the coper or at least line the cooking surface with another material.


They do exist, but aren't common.
https://www.mauvielusa.com/collections/M-passion-pastry-bakeware-cat10.html


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy (May 31, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> They do exist, but aren't common.
> https://www.mauvielusa.com/collections/M-passion-pastry-bakeware-cat10.html


I have the sugar saucepan. Not that I care to be in that argument, I was just focused on the knife.


----------



## M1k3 (May 31, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> What’s nonsense are the internet warriors who doesn’t hesitate on passing mis-judgements without doing research.
> 
> Many things practiced over centuries haves been found harmful.
> 
> ...


Time to rip out all the copper piping!


----------



## soigne_west (May 31, 2020)

I personally think the thick copper foiling that some makers are using, looks terrible. Subjective I know...







my vote for best under rated knife goes to Bessaku. Atleast the butchering knives... great steel and dirt cheap.


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## Midsummer (May 31, 2020)

Copper is also an essential trace element for humans. Trace Elements in Human Physiology and Pathology. Copper - PubMed

"Copper is a trace element, important for the function of many cellular enzymes. Copper ions can adopt distinct redox states oxidized Cu(II) or reduced (I), allowing the metal to play a pivotal role in cell physiology as a catalytic cofactor in the redox chemistry of enzymes, mitochondrial respiration, iron absorption, free radical scavenging and elastin cross-linking. If present in excess, free copper ions can cause damage to cellular components and a delicate balance between the uptake and efflux of copper ions determines the amount of cellular copper. In biological systems, copper homeostasis has been characterized at the molecular level. It is coordinated by several proteins such as glutathione, metallothionein, Cu-transporting P-type ATPases, Menkes and Wilson proteins and by cytoplasmic transport proteins called copper chaperones to ensure that it is delivered to specific subcellular compartments and thereby to copper-requiring proteins."

It is more a question of amount.

Traditionally unlined copper mixing bowls were used for egg whites. Apparently the copper helps to stabilize the protein matrix.


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## ma_sha1 (May 31, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Time to rip out all the copper piping!



Copper water pipes are fine, you are not running acid through it, & the body needs trace amount of copper.


----------



## Blerghle (May 31, 2020)

Yeah I have an unlined copper bowl. I had read that if you use the copper bowl, there's no need to add an acid when making meringue. So a useful reaction in some cases anyway. I can't imagine it being a safety hazard used in these proportions in a damascus inlay.


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## M1k3 (May 31, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> I personally think the thick copper foiling that some makers are using, looks terrible. Subjective I know...
> 
> View attachment 82341
> 
> ...


I think nickel looks better in this use.


----------



## Qapla' (May 31, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> my vote for best under rated knife goes to Bessaku. Atleast the butchering knives... great steel and dirt cheap.


Which company's Bessaku? _Bessaku_ just means "especial-made". Masahiro, Kanehide, and other vendors make knives labeled Bessaku.


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## M1k3 (May 31, 2020)

Kanehide Bessaku, most likely.


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## soigne_west (May 31, 2020)

From what I can tell there basically all VERY similar. I’ve had masahiro and kanehide and only tea difference was handle material and kanji.


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## rickbern (Jun 1, 2020)

Just to toss a little fuel on the copper fire, I thought I’d link to this article. 

Granted, nobody’s talking about cooking on it, but that metal has been used for a reason









The surfaces that kill bacteria and viruses


By copying the texture of insect wings or using new types of materials to create surfaces that kill or inhibit microbes, we could stop infections before they even get into the body.




www.bbc.com





An excerpt
Larrouy-Maumus is betting on copper alloys. The ions in copper alloys are both antiviral and antibacterial, able to kill over 99.9% of bacteria within two hours. Copper is even more effective than silver, which requires moisture to activate its antimicrobial properties.

“Copper is the top surface to use because it has been used by mankind for three millennia,” says Larrouy-Maumus. “The [Ancient] Greeks were already using copper for their cooking and medical use.”


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 1, 2020)

And its used in pool products as Copper Sulphate as an algicide.


----------



## Skippydoo (Jun 2, 2020)

What you guys think of Tog knives?/


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## Skippydoo (Jun 2, 2020)

I think copper should be safe. There's a new expensive Tog knife with magic anti microbial copper Damascus. Seem so exceptionally expensive for A440 steel


----------



## Henry (Jun 2, 2020)

Ken Kageura (retired) knives. Some don't like them as they are a little fat but ascetically, one of the most beautiful knives I have used. Beauty is subjective but in my opinion they are more beautiful than a River Jump or dare I say, a Shig. The beauty is understated and humble.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Jun 2, 2020)

Henry said:


> Ken Kageura


25th generation blacksmith is quite a legacy. Certainly puts the 5 TF generations to shame


----------



## Henry (Jun 3, 2020)

Sad that it ended with him.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jun 3, 2020)

The copper discussion piqued my interest. The wiki page has a summary on cookware. Seems like mindful use poses little harm to a healthy person. People with an inherited disease or 'abuse' of the cookware (constant acid cooking and storage) may fall ill.




AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> While true, those are now known toxic items and were discovered before the information age. Today's standards for information is way different than ever in history of the world. Not saying something won't be found to be toxic in the future, just that it'll be well known in minutes



I don't know about that... it probably depends who has the bigger lobby?

The hazards of asbestos were noted fairly soon after it was industrialised. It was known to be problematic in the 1920s/1930s*. It only got banned in Australia 50 years later in the 80's. In Australia, if you live in a house/apartment that was constructed before the 1980's - you are probably only a few metres away from asbestos. Some analysts think there will be a second wave of asbestosis/mesothelioma cases as home DIY renovators unwittingly expose themselves to the old building materials...



* Strictly speaking - I know that this is before the information age and digital definition. But I think it is _modern_ _enough_ that this information could be shared widely via newspapers, radio and eventually TV.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jun 3, 2020)

danemonji said:


> One of the most underrated knife makers on our forum is takeshi saji. He makes beautiful knives and has a wonderful damascus with ironwood handles and he is very appreciated in Japan. Unfortunately I can't remember anyone here talking about his knives.



I owe him a debt of gratitude for being my introduction to handmade Japanese knives. I never owned one but got to cook with them for extended periods. There is nothing wrong Saji knives - competent performers!


----------



## captaincaed (Jun 3, 2020)

Mac Pro line.


----------



## ExistentialHero (Jun 3, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> Mac Pro line.



I personally prefer the profile of the MacBook Air, but tastes differ.


----------



## SHOWERDOOKIE (Jun 3, 2020)

ExistentialHero said:


> I personally prefer the profile of the MacBook Air, but tastes differ.



Neither of them tasted of apple if I’m being honest, not sure I really get their whole brand


----------



## ragz (Jun 7, 2020)

I would like to add Tsutomu Kajiwara. Super cheap, definitely odd, nevertheless super fun. They are hefty and have wonderful taper. For the taller blades they get a little wedgy. I'm suprised with the popularity of workhorse style knives he goes relatively ignored. He's a real hidden gem.


----------



## GorillaGrunt (Jun 7, 2020)

ragz said:


> I would like to add Tsutomu Kajiwara. Super cheap, definitely odd, nevertheless super fun. They are hefty and have wonderful taper. For the taller blades they get a little wedgy. I'm suprised with the popularity of workhorse style knives he goes relatively ignored. He's a real hidden gem.


Have you had a Murata? How do the two compare?


----------



## ragz (Jun 8, 2020)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Have you had a Murata? How do the two compare?



I have not sorry D:


----------



## captaincaed (Jun 8, 2020)

Murata can be nice


----------



## GorillaGrunt (Jun 8, 2020)

Both from Tosa, working in Blue 1; I really like Murata’s steel but I think the geometry is just ok so I’m wondering if Kajiwara is better, not as good, or about equal


----------



## Gregmega (Jun 9, 2020)

Henry said:


> Ken Kageura (retired) knives. Some don't like them as they are a little fat but ascetically, one of the most beautiful knives I have used. Beauty is subjective but in my opinion they are more beautiful than a River Jump or dare I say, a Shig. The beauty is understated and humble.
> View attachment 82620


Was looking around for one of these a few years ago. They are weird. But what a legacy.


----------



## Gregmega (Jun 9, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> I personally think the thick copper foiling that some makers are using, looks terrible. Subjective I know...
> 
> View attachment 82341
> 
> ...


I’m confused- is Bessaku the name of the maker? Looks cool af tho.


----------



## soigne_west (Jun 9, 2020)

Gregmega said:


> I’m confused- is Bessaku the name of the maker? Looks cool af tho.



The knife in that pics actually a majime. Bessaku are dirt cheap western mono knives that can be had from a variety of different vendors masahiro, kanehide etc.


----------



## Gregmega (Jun 9, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> The knife in that pics actually a majime. Bessaku are dirt cheap western mono knives that can be had from a variety of different vendors masahiro, kanehide etc.
> 
> View attachment 83408


Oh ok- cause I didn’t know I needed another knife til I saw this pic

Ok I just looked. I know this guy, is his stuff good?


----------



## nyc (Jun 9, 2020)

+1 for the stuff from Tosa. Murata for example. Aogami #1 with iron clad ku and a western handle. Superb F&F at the bolster and tang which is done by Hokiyama. Pity it isn’t available in 240. The man himself is supposed to be retired now.
Kosuke Muneishi. Sold as Yusaku by CKTG. On another Japan based webstore, under his own name. Forges primarily in Aogami #2. The grind is unsophisticated, but it can really cut. Really thin behind the edge and sharpens up to a wicked toothy edge so easily. Feels hard and the edge retention is remarkable. Possibly due to the maker’s family having a long history in making forestry and farming tools. One of two knives in my collection that wedges into my cutting board.


----------



## captaincaed (Jun 10, 2020)

I enjoy the Murata steel as well. The geometry isn't perfection, and I know that's not appealing to some, but it's certainly not bad. The simple, inexpensive wide bevel is easy to tweak and maintain as well. The size palette is small, but the nakiri I had was basically Jack the Ripper for produce


----------



## nyc (Jun 10, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> I enjoy the Murata steel as well. The geometry isn't perfection, and I know that's not appealing to some, but it's certainly not bad. The simple, inexpensive wide bevel is easy to tweak and maintain as well. The size palette is small, but the nakiri I had was basically Jack the Ripper for produce


I got my Murata largely because of your video on YouTube. And we exchanged a couple of comments on it and your TF Denka too.
It’s a little rough around the edges but has loads of character. CKTG had it on sale actually. So I thought why not? At its price point, hard to beat.


----------



## captaincaed (Jun 10, 2020)

nyc said:


> I got my Murata largely because of your video on YouTube. And we exchanged a couple of comments on it and your TF Denka too.
> It’s a little rough around the edges but has loads of character. CKTG had it on sale actually. So I thought why not? At its price point, hard to beat.


Oh hey, no kidding! I still have both. The Murata is great to just pick up and use for any old task. After some thinning, it's getting seriously nice to use. 
Just blasted through a bunch of onions for a double batch of chili with the Denka. If you have the means.... Nothing else I have really compares. Great combination of thin, hard edge and overall weight. For what it's worth, I think my Mazaki does 95% of the job the Denka does, and probably does tip-work better, like slicing onion close to the root. But the weight of the western Denka near the handle and bolster means the heel can really bring some weight down when you need it to.
OK, I need to shut up. I'm drinking and posting again...


----------



## nyc (Jun 10, 2020)

Yeah ... that video of your Denka decimating some mushrooms.
I picked up a 240 just recently. Saw a spiffy looking one, couldn’t pass on it. Sad to say it won’t be in my loving embrace anytime before August.


----------



## captaincaed (Jun 10, 2020)

nyc said:


> Yeah ... that video of your Denka decimating some mushrooms.
> I picked up a 240 just recently. Saw a spiffy looking one, couldn’t pass on it. Sad to say it won’t be in my loving embrace anytime before August.


OH yeah? Bought online? Long shipping?


----------



## nyc (Jun 10, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> OH yeah? Bought online? Long shipping?


Online. It has arrived but I’m not based at my shipping address. But with borders still closed, it’s going to take a bit longer than usual.


----------



## captaincaed (Jun 10, 2020)

What a pain in the ass!


----------



## NO ChoP! (Jun 10, 2020)

My coworker has a Saji ginsan he spent $330 on. I hate it! Zero distal taper. Flat sides, low grind, thick tip. Yuck! 

My vote is Makoto HG white #2 stainless clad kurouchi. Wicked grind, thicker spine at the heel, crazy thin taper. Mega polished spine and choil. Crazy low $200 price point. This thing is like a 911 with a stick shift fun. This should really be the flavor of the day.


----------



## zizirex (Jun 10, 2020)

I heard Makoto Kurosaki doesn’t forge his own knives, it could be either his brother or Kato or Ikeda. He sharpens his own knife though, and he spends time studying under MoriHiro (Like Makoto Tadokoro) so it should be good.


----------



## GorillaGrunt (Jun 10, 2020)

This was totally not how I used to think — but all those smiths mentioned are good so it’s probably a good knife!


----------



## gcsquared (Jun 10, 2020)

I don’t know what is considered “underrated”, but I’ll take it as equivalent to under-appreciated. I’d say Takeda’s NAS line of knives are certainly not as highly in demand as the AS predecessor. I get there was a few years where there were issues with the grind when he transitioned from AS to NAS, but the knives I’ve handled in the recent vintages don’t seem to have ant issues and performed superbly.


----------



## NO ChoP! (Jun 10, 2020)

I would put Takeda in the overrated category, and I own one.


----------



## Henry (Jun 19, 2020)

Gregmega said:


> Was looking around for one of these a few years ago. They are weird. But what a legacy.


Did you ever find one? Why are they weird?


----------



## Gregmega (Jun 20, 2020)

Henry said:


> Did you ever find one? Why are they weird?


They’re kinda clunky, the profiles are odd, they don’t fit the stylish aesthetic that permeates the current culture, they have an old world vibe. But the craftsmanship is apparently evident in hand. He passed some time ago as I understand it so they’ve become increasingly hard to find. Most the people who own them don’t spend time in these dark alleys. So to answer your question, no. None in my collection.


----------



## friz (Jun 20, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> My coworker has a Saji ginsan he spent $330 on. I hate it! Zero distal taper. Flat sides, low grind, thick tip. Yuck!
> 
> My vote is Makoto HG white #2 stainless clad kurouchi. Wicked grind, thicker spine at the heel, crazy thin taper. Mega polished spine and choil. Crazy low $200 price point. This thing is like a 911 with a stick shift fun. This should really be the flavor of the day.


I was looking at the Makoto HG the other day. Sold out though.

Looks lot of fun.


----------



## kidsos (Jun 20, 2020)

My murata petty/sabaki is my number one most used knife at work during service. I need to do a lot of really fine cutting on soft produce and it is really nice to use, I sharpen it every other night and the steel feels wonderful!


----------



## Runner_up (Jun 20, 2020)

^^ Murata's blue #1 is awesome. His grinds can be wonky but overall nice knives.

Nice job polishing the blade road.


----------



## captaincaed (Jun 20, 2020)

I like Murata at the sub 200 point


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 20, 2020)

MUTSUMI’s knife is also underrated, If the knife has the kanji of the father, it’d be double the cost.

If the river jump has been passed on, it’d certainly boost MUTSUMI’s reputation & help to sell his knife at higher price.


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## Henry (Jun 21, 2020)

Gregmega said:


> They’re kinda clunky, the profiles are odd, they don’t fit the stylish aesthetic that permeates the current culture, they have an old world vibe. But the craftsmanship is apparently evident in hand. He passed some time ago as I understand it so they’ve become increasingly hard to find. Most the people who own them don’t spend time in these dark alleys. So to answer your question, no. None in my collection.



I think you got it spot on when you referred to it as an "old world vibe". It feels like a knife made for people in his village insulated from the outside world. Perhaps that is way it was never really poplar. I feels like it was never made with those who collect knives but rather for a grandma who uses one knife to do everything and who takes it in to get sharpened once a year. It does and feel different than anything else I own. I use it every once in awhile but am not really sure if I like the way it cuts. When I use it consistently, I seem to like it but when I use it occasionally, it is so different than my other knives, I am not too sure. Perhaps because of this, it has become one of my favourite knives. I am debating thinning this one out a little. Someone on this forum who owned one suggest I do this. 
I think he is still alive but is retired without anyone taking over as he was a one man operation. He sold some of his work through the Massakage brand. However, unlike the other blacksmiths under the brand, he did everything. I hear he has put away his spring hammer for a fishing rod and spends his days fly fishing in the forest by his village. 

Here is a picture of my 180. I have another one that is 220ish. It is the one of tallest 180 gyuto I have seen. The last photo, I hit the auto enhance on my iPhoto app. All photos were all taken on the same day just under different lighting.


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## Gregmega (Jun 21, 2020)

Henry said:


> I think you got it spot on when you referred to it as an "old world vibe". It feels like a knife made for people in his village insulated from the outside world. Perhaps that is way it was never really poplar. I feels like it was never made with those who collect knives but rather for a grandma who uses one knife to do everything and who takes it in to get sharpened once a year. It does and feel different than anything else I own. I use it every once in awhile but am not really sure if I like the way it cuts. When I use it consistently, I seem to like it but when I use it occasionally, it is so different than my other knives, I am not too sure. Perhaps because of this, it has become one of my favourite knives. I am debating thinning this one out a little. Someone on this forum who owned one suggest I do this.
> I think he is still alive but is retired without anyone taking over as he was a one man operation. He sold some of his work through the Massakage brand. However, unlike the other blacksmiths under the brand, he did everything. I hear he has put away his spring hammer for a fishing rod and spends his days fly fishing in the forest by his village.
> 
> Here is a picture of my 180. I have another one that is 220ish. It is the one of tallest 180 gyuto I have seen. The last photo, I hit the auto enhance on my iPhoto app. All photos were all taken on the same day just under different lighting.
> ...


This is awesome! Thanks for the info, very cool to hear more info on these Also the patterns are just killer. What a unique piece of history locked in steel.


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## Severe_wrangler_5813 (Mar 7, 2021)

Apparently people on here don’t know the definition of underrated. Takamura Chromax? Yoshikane SKD? Seriously? That’s like if I called nirvana underrated on a rock forum.


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## M1k3 (Mar 7, 2021)

Severe_wrangler_5813 said:


> Apparently people on here don’t know the definition of underrated. Takamura Chromax? Yoshikane SKD? Seriously? That’s like if I called nirvana underrated on a rock forum.


What knife or knives would you consider underrated?


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## Severe_wrangler_5813 (Mar 7, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> What knife or knives would you consider underrated?


Masamoto ks


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## M1k3 (Mar 7, 2021)

Severe_wrangler_5813 said:


> Masamoto ks


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## tcmx3 (Mar 7, 2021)

ma_sha1 said:


> MUTSUMI’s knife is also underrated, If the knife has the kanji of the father, it’d be double the cost.
> 
> If the river jump has been passed on, it’d certainly boost MUTSUMI’s reputation & help to sell his knife at higher price.



I have both a 210 and 240 from Mutsumi, I think theyre great great great knives. Especially the 210; even though I find the size a bit awkward I really like the profile. Ive brought my shinogi up a bit and flattened out the bevels a touch and it's the knife that lives on my board the most right now.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 7, 2021)

Well depending who you talk to its this


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 7, 2021)

I reckon this'll be unpopular but the Wusthof Gourmet line is a great bang-for-your-buck option. As much as I am enjoying my foray into Japanese knives and all the joy they bring, if you told me I could only have one knife for the rest of my days, it would be either the 8" or quite possibly 6" chef's knives from this line.

Comfortable, light, nimble, but tough and resilient. I thinned the full blade on my 8" and the edge bevel is probably around 17dps. Yes, it is a compromise in every way, but it is an excellent balance of all of them.

I don't ever want this to be my only option and these days it just serves heavy-duty action, but it is quite a capable knife at an incredibly good price.


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## jsph (Mar 7, 2021)

great comment -- wushof gourmet _is_ a very good cheap knife. thinning the blade, did you have any trouble with the plastic of the handle coming so far forward into a mock half-bolster kindof thing?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 7, 2021)

jsph said:


> great comment -- wushof gourmet _is_ a very good cheap knife. thinning the blade, did you have any trouble with the plastic of the handle coming so far forward into a mock half-bolster kindof thing?



I wouldn't say trouble, but it did get chewed up some.

I did the bulk of the work on low grit sandpaper, I think 120 and worked from spine to edge. Right away you realize there are a lot of hills and valleys along the sides. I quickly surrendered any pretense of looking nice and focused on function. Once I had the primary grind somewhat thinned and smoothed I focused on behind the edge and knocking down the shoulders.

Then I went up to 600 to tame the scratches. It looks like a knife I sanded on, there's no doubt, but it works great.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 7, 2021)

Another picture. This was early into the process. I cleaned it up a bit after but not a lot. Again, not pretty and could've used better technique but it was my first venture and the performance results are there.


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## spaceconvoy (Mar 7, 2021)

Shun classic, very thin behind the edge, slightly convex, not a flat grind, good rendition of vg10 that's easy to sharpen and not chippy


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## jsph (Mar 7, 2021)

humblehomecook: that's great to know about the process, and thanks for the extra pics. i've been wondering if i should mess around with an old one of those, a 6", or maybe an old wusthof classic, starting with getting rid of most of the bolster -- or whether to buy a half-bolster classic and not do that work. i wish they made a 10" half-bolster, actually, but it seems 9" is their biggest. as relates to this thread, however much japanese knives blow my mind, sometimes i pick up an old wusthof to do something and i'm stunned by pretty much every aspect of it, and stunned that i keep forgetting and putting it away.

spaceconvoy: have to agree about shun classic, too, based on a 6" utility i can comment on, but which has never seen hard use, so can't comment on other people's usual complaints re: chips. out of the box, that shun classic utility was probably the sharpest knife i've ever touched, or maybe tied for first place with a japanese zwilling sg2.


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## ModRQC (Mar 7, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Shun classic, very thin behind the edge, slightly convex, not a flat grind, good rendition of vg10 that's easy to sharpen and not chippy



I was sure you were going to go with your Sukenari Ginsan on this one. 

My opinion hasn't changed since the last time such a question popped up: either Masahiro VC 210mm or Ittetsu KU 180mm (W#1) were amazing cutters for the price, easy to sharpen, could hold onto an edge for a while, if no Kings of any hill there. Neither I ever see advised to nobody about anything. 

But to me the most underrated knife was underrated by myself: Konosuke HD2. I just always found gripe with buying it - too expensive, too light, profile too curvy, too plain, undisclosed steel grinding my gears etc. Then I got one from @esoo and before I even knew it, even as it was proposed on BST and used as a dummy for testing sharpening stones, it had secured a relative long term place in my lineup.


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## spaceconvoy (Mar 8, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> I was sure you were going to go with your Sukenari Ginsan on this one.


Sukenari isn't underrated though. The handle is cheap and roughly finished, it has no distal taper whatsoever, and the grind is slightly too thick ootb. It's a good value but needs some work to really shine. Plus I can't remember reading any bad reviews of Sukenari.


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## ModRQC (Mar 8, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Sukenari isn't underrated though. The handle is cheap and roughly finished, it has no distal taper whatsoever, and the grind is slightly too thick ootb. It's a good value but needs some work to really shine. Plus I can't remember reading any bad reviews of Sukenari.



Yeah I know, but still Sukenari doesn't come up so often in suggestions, and is rather low profile around here, although yes never really criticized, and rapidly gaining a lot of love whenever they come up. 

Obviously Shun was your best bet for having a punch with underrated... although yet again, isn't a Shun Classic king of overrated too?


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## Nemo (Mar 8, 2021)

Nemo said:


> I only have the suji version of his AS, which is my daily driver suji. It's a steal for what you get. I don't know how the gyuto performs but the guy can make a knife, so I would assume it's ok.


Further to this, I have since bought the gyuto. It's a thin knife Not quite laser thin but almost.

A good performer and once again, brilliant value for money.


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