# German Chef's or Western Deba?



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 9, 2014)

Hey Everyone!

So this kinda stems off of my thread about using a Suji as an all-around knife. I have been basically doing it and enjoy using it or a long petty much more than I ever did using a typical Gyuto. These knives just feel so nimble, fast, easy to use and direct compared to a taller and larger gyuto. Especially given that I have a small kitchen, these things feel like food scalpels to me. I feel like with the flatter profile and thinness I'm better able to just let the knife do the cutting. This also co-insides with me moving away from the pinch grip and actually finding myself more comfortable, confident and relaxed when cutting. Anyhow, I might sound like I'm channeling Cadillac J here and I sort of am, some of his posts really got me thinking about how I hold a knife and what styles or types I prefer. 

That being said the one road block now is how to handle the big stuff or mean jobs with a long petty/suji. I'm *mostly* vegetarian (very little meat) and as a result I do enjoy winter squashes and other fairly hard skinned things think Acorn Squash, Pumpkin etc... Additionally, I'm a fairly frequent baker so I am often chopping up chocolate along with nuts and other tough stuff like candy bars, peppermints etc...

I'm looking for a knife to have as a backup for my Long Petty/Suji that I can pull out for all the big stuff. I have found the Petty/Suji to be wonderful for 95% of my cutting it's just that last section that I know it can't handle (splitting a pumpkin).

So in this case, you guys have any suggestions on either a good German Chef's knife or a Western Deba? I'm not sure which would be better or even which options might be worth considering for these styles.

I know Fujiwara makes a Western Deba around $100 as does Tojiro around $150

Any advice/recommendations?


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## Castalia (Dec 9, 2014)

Budget, handle type, steel, length, etc.?:scratchhead:


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## SolidSnake03 (Dec 9, 2014)

Honestly? I left those all off because it doesn't matter much. I figure Western handle will be easier to find but my budget is whatever I would like it to be. I think up to $200 would be fair? Steel type doesn't matter, maybe stainless since it won't see a ton of use. 

That's about it, can't edit the first post unfortunately but for the most part I'm just trying to get a feeling between these two different types and then maybe some specific ones to look at.


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## MrOli (Dec 9, 2014)

I like Nakiris for the veggie prep...you can find a few sizes from 165 to 180 and possibly longer.


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## Castalia (Dec 9, 2014)

I have an old carbon 10 inch Sabatier Chefs that I pull out for heavy duty cutting, of squash etc, chopping chocolate. I don't mind bashing the softer steel into those kinds of harder objects, knowing I can more easily steel the edge (or sharpen it) as needed. No worries about the brittleness of high HRC japanese steel. Plus it is fun just to have a giant old school chef's knife around.


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## daveb (Dec 9, 2014)

I like a cleaver for chocolate, the only knife that seems made for the job. Lacking one I would use a German chef. For the squash - I don't do many but when I do cut up a butternut, pumpkin etc I usually use an electric knife.


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## mhpr262 (Dec 9, 2014)

If you are looking for a western chef's knife, I have five Wüsthof classics and three F. Dick Premier Plus in my collection, and overall I prefer the handle and profile of the F. Dicks (got the Classics super cheap at various ebay auctions though, couldn't resist). If you have 200$ to spare you could look at the F. Dick PremierPlus WACS, it's pretty spectacular looking with its coated blade and mother-of-pearl like handle, and every bit as useful as the normal versions. It should actuallly cost much less than 200$.


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## SolidSnake03 (Dec 9, 2014)

Thanks for the responses everyone! I'm leaning a bit toward a German Chef's due to the slightly softer steel but still wondering if the added weight/beefyness of a western deba like the Fujiwara might be a good choice? Might that help in taking down really solid stuff?
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/FKMSeries.html#FKM


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## gman (Dec 9, 2014)

My blue super gyuto handled a pile of very hard beets last night with no problems. If I'm afraid of chipping and reach for a German knife, I skip the chef and go straight to a cleaver or utility.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 9, 2014)

Western deba + butternut squash = severe wedging. Better get a rawhide mallet to use on the spine. The German chef's is probably better suited to this, though with the proper technique, your regular gyuto is sufficient. 

A Western deba excels as a chicken "destroyer", and does a great job on nuts and chocolate.


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## Jordanp (Dec 9, 2014)

Pensacola is right I have thew fujiwara 240 western deba and it wedges on squash like a ***** I would suggest getting a cheap chinese cleaver from your local china town/ market or a german chef's knife would work just as well


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## chinacats (Dec 9, 2014)

Yeah, thin knife for most hard squash works great for me. Chinese meat cleaver for the heavy duty stuff--and it's just a fun knife to have in the collection.


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## ThEoRy (Dec 9, 2014)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Western deba + butternut squash = severe wedging. Better get a rawhide mallet to use on the spine. The German chef's is probably better suited to this, though with the proper technique, your regular gyuto is sufficient.
> 
> A Western deba excels as a chicken "destroyer", and does a great job on nuts and chocolate.



What, this old thing?
[video=youtube;urIeUid1TMo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urIeUid1TMo[/video]


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## leiatlarge (Dec 10, 2014)

I have a small 160mm Deba and find the spine is just too thick to do any work outside of light butchering and fish. It's also useless for tackling bone or anything that may potentially chip it. 

Have you thought about purchasing a nice Chinese cleaver? I just got a CCK 1102 cleaver in the mail yesterday and very happy with the performance. Heavy enough to tackle hard jobs but light enough to cut small veggies. So far really love it compared to my 270mm gyuto. I read it's ~60HRC so definitely useful for a variety of applications. There's something incredibly satisfying about the weight of it.


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## chinacats (Dec 10, 2014)

leiatlarge said:


> I have a small 160mm Deba and find the spine is just too thick to do any work outside of light butchering and fish. It's also useless for tackling bone or anything that may potentially chip it.



Deba is a different knife than being discussed here. This is western deba--I don't own one, but believe it to be a double bevel axe like knife. :running:

The video above pictures a western deba.
Cheers


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## SolidSnake03 (Dec 10, 2014)

Wow that was a chicken massacre!

Regarding the Cleavers, are you guys talking about something like this one?
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...type/cleavers/gesshin-205mm-meat-cleaver.html
For squash, chocolate, nuts etc... 

or is it more like this
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...e/cleavers/gesshin-chinese-cleaver-small.html


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## Benuser (Dec 10, 2014)

Castalia said:


> I have an old carbon 10 inch Sabatier Chefs that I pull out for heavy duty cutting, of squash etc, chopping chocolate. I don't mind bashing the softer steel into those kinds of harder objects, knowing I can more easily steel the edge (or sharpen it) as needed. No worries about the brittleness of high HRC japanese steel. Plus it is fun just to have a giant old school chef's knife around.


+1
I take a carbon Sab or a vintage Sheffield when I want to control possible damage


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## HomeCook (Dec 10, 2014)

leiatlarge said:


> Have you thought about purchasing a nice Chinese cleaver? I just got a CCK 1102 cleaver in the mail yesterday and very happy with the performance. Heavy enough to tackle hard jobs but light enough to cut small veggies. So far really love it compared to my 270mm gyuto. I read it's ~60HRC so definitely useful for a variety of applications. There's something incredibly satisfying about the weight of it.



Who did you get the 1102 from? I can only find the 1103 large slicer from a US vendor and don't want to pay $30 shipping from China for the 1102.


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## chinacats (Dec 10, 2014)

The eleven series is for slicing. It is a very light and thin knife and not many for heavy duty cutting. I have an 1103, great veggie knife


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## JCHine (Dec 11, 2014)

Use a 310mm wustof chefs knife for pumpkins (with a rubber mallet if it is a turks head). Sharpen it to about 20 degrees each side so the edge is very durable. Great for pizza cutting as well as you just lay it across the entire width and rock cut it.

It is a fearsome looking thing straight out of Norman Bates' kitchen. Like to joke that if some breaks in you grab two knives; a petty for personal protection and the 310mm Wusty machete for deterrent value.


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## Dardeau (Dec 11, 2014)

I think that may be longer than my ACTUAL machete.


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## SolidSnake03 (Dec 12, 2014)

Hey guys, just to pop back in and let you know what I decided, I ended up snagging a Wusthof Classic 8in Chef off eBay pretty cheap and so far it's done a great job taking down a Pumpkin for baking.

I know there is a decent amount of disdain for German knives like the Wustie but honestly, in this case it does a very good job. I felt comfortable powering the thing through this Pumpkin and putting a bit more weight on the spine to get it through. I figure a solid meat cleaver might work well too but the Wustie did well.

Haven't taken it to any Chocolate or nuts yet but I'm sure it will hold up well. For reference, I sharpened up to about a 1k edge and stropped a tiny bit on a Rika 5k, the edge seems pretty solid since the Pumpkin didn't really ruin it....

Thanks again everyone for the advice and perspectives on this, happy with my choice


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## JCHine (Dec 13, 2014)

BTW the best knife for chocolate IMHO is a bread or serrated slicing knife; the chips fly off it for melting so easily. If you get a really long one it is useful for cakes especially for layer sponges, a single stroke can do a 10' cake. Wife does a lot of baking so her first knife was serrated (until she fell under the spell of the Gyuto)


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## SolidSnake03 (Dec 13, 2014)

*update* The Wustie held up fine to chopping 4 pds of mixed nuts and was even useful for cracking an extra shell or two (used the blade flat not the edge). So far I'm definitely digging this knife however, it does cut everything else (veggie, meat etc..) fairly poorly compared to all of my J-Knives which really shouldn't be a surprise.

Anyhow, happy with the purchase and seems to do what I want very well, these things really are quite good all around bangers with a good bit of heft.


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## the_edge (Dec 14, 2014)

That Wusthof Classic has a thick spine that seems like it would wedge in squash, and a full bolster that makes it a pain to sharpen and shortens the blades cutting edge potential. Here's a comparison article about it compared to another line from Wusthof: Wusthof LeCordon Bleu. 

One of the things you paid for was PeTec which was lost when you sharpened it. 

At least it wasn't a Deba.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 14, 2014)

the_edge said:


> That Wusthof Classic has a thick spine that seems like it would wedge in squash, ...



Things aren't always what they seem. Wedging is more a function of how thin behind the edge the blade is, not so much a function of the spine width. Good examples of this are the Kato and Shigefusa.



> ... and a full bolster that makes it a pain to sharpen and shortens the blades cutting edge potential.



Yes, it takes a bit more initial work to properly thin the fingerguard so that the entire edge can be sharpened, but once done, sharpening is hardly a PITA. I don't understand your comment about shortening the "cutting edge potential".



> One of the things you paid for was PeTec which was lost when you sharpened it.



PeTec is nothing more than factory grinding to produce what we consider a nicely thinned blade. How does sharpening make you "lose" this?


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## SolidSnake03 (Dec 14, 2014)

The Edge:

I think you might have missed the point of why I bought this knife and what I wanted it to do. I do NOT want a lighter knife, I was specially looking at something more stout and thicker at the spine for the purpose of taking down winter squash and smashing up hard stuff for baking. The advantages of the LeCordon (thinner, lighter) are not at all what I was looking for in this knife. The added weight of the knife so far has been a nice benefit for what I'm using it for. 

This knife is not used for long sessions at a time and specifically not for lots of fine work where my arm/hand may feel the added weight.

Additionally, I fail to see what sharpening it up myself would do to ruin the PeTec as Tiger just described. The knife is fairly thick at the spine but behind the edge it isn't actually too bad, I've definitely used Japanese knives that wedged worse and were thicker by a good margin.

The bolster is a fair point but I have handled and used some old Sab's before and never really found it a big issue. Yes, it is a bit annoying and something to deal with while sharpening but honestly, it's maybe a few extra minutes of work which is definitely worth doing considering the rest of the blade is what I wanted.

Listen, I get that German's aren't the best for certain things but I do believe they have their uses and are still highly capable knives, for my intended applications this one is working quite well.


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## elinaxelsson (Dec 19, 2014)

Obviously German Chef


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## Benuser (Dec 19, 2014)

The only reason I never bought a Wüsthof, any Wüsthof, is not the profile, nor the soft stainless steel, I can manage. It's the balance, more exactly the handle heaviness , which might suit rock choppers, but I happen to be with another club.


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## macka17 (Dec 19, 2014)

A lot of chefs have used a lot of Wusthof over the yrs with no complaints
they will do all general jobs in a kitchen, everything.

These new world (to us) skinny japanese items are on for lighter usage. BUT they all say don't use on ????
Basically with few exceptions. they NOT man enough to do full kitchen range of work. They specialist tools.
and good at it.

Personally, for pumpkins etc I have an old Giesser butchers knife from Meatworks,
does all my heavy stuff requiring longer blade and has done for over 30 yrs now.

For a job that isn't a regular everyday part of routine.
Those tradies tools from the meatworks do a great job.
Not fancy but very efficient at around $25ea, for most of them.

Also a lot of people me incl. like the balance of the Wusthof/european knives.
or the French style.


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## chefcomesback (Dec 19, 2014)

macka17 said:


> A lot of chefs have used a lot of Wusthof over the yrs with no complaints
> they will do all general jobs in a kitchen, everything.
> 
> These new world (to us) skinny japanese items are on for lighter usage. BUT they all say don't use on ????
> ...



Mostly because they didn't have anything better or readily available than those. You can say the same thing about Dexter-Russell's as well, they don't get much complaint either 
If they work out for you it's great , there is nothing wrong with that
Biggest turn off for me was their profiles , bolsters , and the softness of their steel.


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## Benuser (Dec 19, 2014)

What makes people believe European blades are identical to German ones? No Rhine anymore??


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## Benuser (Dec 19, 2014)

http://www.cookfoodgood.com/?p=399


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## macka17 (Dec 21, 2014)

Well I've used Wusthof and a few other European "rocker" blades. And I like my Santoku 170 a lot too.

I like both types of knife just tend to think about when is the job at hand a bit too much for the light blades.
That never happens with a Wusthof.

Anybody that worries about a coupla ounces difference in the weight of a blade over the day. Should be spending a little time on some dumbells.
Try swinging a sledge or pick or shovel like we did for 12 hr shifts.


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## SolidSnake03 (Dec 21, 2014)

The coofoodgood posts are always very interesting and informative!


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## chefcomesback (Dec 21, 2014)

Not all the japanese knives are super thin or light FWIW


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## SolidSnake03 (Dec 21, 2014)

see Kato's


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