# Overwhelmed Newbie Needing Help with First Gyuto, Stones, and End Grain Block



## SurlyBastage (Aug 11, 2017)

Newbie here trying to wrap my head around everything... and failing. 

Oh no I've read too much
I haven't read enough.

I plan to get a good board, get some sharpening stones , and then after getting comfortable sharpening and taking a knife skills class, get a gyuto. 

I hope to be content with just one gyuto (I hear you snickering) so would like something nicer than entry level. 

For everything, I want to find a good value/quality point. I know that means different things to different people and I don't yet know what it means to me regarding knives, boards, and stones but the following might help. 

For cars, my value point is a 2-3 year old Toyota Camry. There are other cars that accelerate faster, have more room, are less expensive, get better gas mileage etc. but the Camry does many things well for a relatively reasonable price and is one of the more reliable cars out there (no, I don't sell cars or work for Toyota) . 

*LOCATION*
I live in Zambia but will be moving to the US (Charlotte, NC) soon. 

*KNIFE*
240mm wa-Gyuto
* Left handed* 

*METAL* 
Most likely stainless but have not ruled out semi-stainless or stainless clad carbon. 

I doubt carbon is for me but am open to be convinced otherwise.

I would like something that is not so brittle that it shouldn't be in the hands of a newbie. 

*BUDGET*
I have not yet set a budget. I would rather you let me know where the "Camry" price point is and see if I need to drop down a little or even what a few more sheckles will get me. 

*KNIFE USE*
Home cooking - cutting fruit, slicing/mincing/chopping vegetables and trimming /cutting meat. 

I currently have stainless Chicago Cutlery 8" Chef knife. 

Pinch grip

I push cut primarily but will be taking a knife skills class. 

*AESTHETICS*

I can't tell much by the pictures I see on my phone but I doubt I would like Damascus, kurouchi, or hammered finishes. Seeing them in person or on a bigger screen might change my mind. 

I prefer dark handles but will not cross good knives off my list due to handle color. 

*[ COMFORT/B] 
I have not yet handled a wa-gyuto( I hope to before buying) so I am open to recommendations for handle shape and whether a rounded spine /Choi is the way to go. 

For weight, again I don't have a good reference. I would guess something in the middle is best for a newbie but am open to suggestions. 

EASE OF USE
I would like something with good food release. 

EDGE
It doesn't have to be the sharpest, longest lasting, or easiest to sharpen. 

I would like something that is good to very good for sharpness and edge holding while still being easy enough for a newbie to sharpen well. 


KNIFE MAINTENANCE

Board
I am  thinking about getting two end grain blocks. An ~ 12x18x2 incher for raw meats and an ~ 16x22x2 incher for the rest but will consider rubber or synthetic recommendations. 

I like the Boardsmith walnut and maple or their maple but am interested in hearing about other well-made boards? 

If I drop the smaller board for something non-wood, is Hi-Soft the way to go? 

If so, where is a good place to buy one? 

Sharpening
I haven't sharpened before but plan to learn and practice before buying the gyuto.

Is my current knife good to practice on? 

If not is there a good cheap boning, carving, or other style knife I could get for practice that would also be useful to have?

Note, I plan to get a nice stainless pretty somewhere down the road. 

For some "Camry" type stones, I prefer to buy from JKI since I plan to learn from Jon's videos. 

How does this set up look /any other suggestions? 

 Gesshin 400/2000/6000 stone set  

 JKI Holder and tray  

Anything else? 


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

My current knife is 50mm tall at the heel and I doubt I would like anything much shorter, though I will consider it as long as I can find something similar to feel before buying. 

I would prefer to know the artisan(s) and the type of steel(s) but pricing could convince me to let those thoughts go. 

I am not yet sure of the timeframe for purchasing everything so please don't refrain from a suggestion just because it is not currently available.

Oh no I've typed too much... 


Please and thank you. *


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## foody518 (Aug 11, 2017)

You can use something like a smaller Hi Soft for your raw meats
Look at Top Chop Butcher Block as well for end grain
Gesshin sharpening set is fantastic just make sure you're really gonna dive into this 
Get a stone flattener/flattening plate


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## Matus (Aug 11, 2017)

Every time I see a these kind of preferences the same knife comes to my mind as first - Itinomon StainLess. Excellent grind, fantastic semi-stainless (indeed not known, but I guess A2 or something similar) clad in stainless, middle/lower weight (not a laser though) 

From JKI I would be looking at Gesshin Uraku, Kagero (very thing and lightweight), Kochi (stainless clad carbon), Kintaro (stainless clad aogami super, middle weight), Ginga (very thin & lightweight)

But there are many other options that are worth considering.


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## naifu (Aug 11, 2017)

foody518 said:


> You can use something like a smaller Hi Soft for your raw meats
> Look at Top Chop Butcher Block as well for end grain
> Gesshin sharpening set is fantastic just make sure you're really gonna dive into this
> Get a stone flattener/flattening plate



I recently went through the same thing. My general advice is to start slow with a stainless starter knife like a Gesshin Stainless and a single stone like the Gesshin 2000. You will learn more as you go. I would also suggest finding some inexpensive knives that you use to can practice sharpening. Sharpening is the most important skill you need before you buy an expensive carbon knife in my opinion. It is not that easy to get a razor sharp edge on your first several attempts, but it does seem to get easier the more you do it.

I bought two butcher blocks from The Board Smith. One is 18x12x2 inches in hard maple and the other is 18x24x3 inches in walnut. Both are great, but I think I prefer the maple board because it is slightly harder and I can see the food and stains much easier. The walnut is a beautiful dark chocolate brown color. Both are really nice, but in my opinion overkill. You can get by just fine with a plastic board from Amazon, and these are dirt cheap.

I like the stone holder that Chef Knives To Go sells -- Suehiro Deluxe Stone Holder.

The only stone from JKI that I did not like is the pink 220. It works well but it is a thirsty stone. That can be remedied by varnishing all the sides but the top, but I ended up with a Shapton glass 220 splash and go.

Lots of choices. It is overwhelming, but enjoy the journey and don't worry too much if you get something wrong.

Good luck


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## Matus (Aug 11, 2017)

That Gesshin sharpening set is great - I would recommend to perma-soak all 3 of the stones. I have the same set - those are 3 great stones. In particular the 2000 is fantastic. I have the same holder and tray - they work great too. As was already said - you may want to directly get the diamond flattening plate if the budget allows.


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## kurwamac (Aug 11, 2017)

Gessin set is a good shout
Carbon steel is generally a good deal easier than (semi) stainless to get sharp, and are generally cheaper for a similar level of performance. Look into knives made of VG10, Isshin and Kanehiro are two I've used and liked. 
Another thing to keep in mind is trying as many styles and handles before you buy

For something to practice on, I might suggest a cheap carbon cleaver as there is lot to work with and they are bloody good fun as well as useful


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## naifu (Aug 11, 2017)

Here is the cutting board I purchased for my daughter to take to college: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LXE0PBV/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

This will last literally forever, and it is only $12.90. Larchwood also makes a decent cutting board.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 11, 2017)

naifu said:


> Here is the cutting board I purchased for my daughter to take to college: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LXE0PBV/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> This will last literally forever, and it is only $12.90. Larchwood also makes a decent cutting board.



I have to take exception with your recommendation. A board like the one you linked to is very hard on edges. (Ask me how I know.) A Sani-Tuff is vastly better on the knife's edge, and even though it is four times the price, it will also last forever.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ADPFXH2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## naifu (Aug 11, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> I have to take exception with your recommendation. A board like the one you linked to is very hard on edges. (Ask me how I know.) A Sani-Tuff is vastly better on the knife's edge, and even though it is four times the price, it will also last forever.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ADPFXH2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



nice. did not know about these rubber boards.


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## Espresso (Aug 11, 2017)

I am also a noob, so keep that in mind while you read my advice. But I am also a noob that likes to research and make the *correct choice.* 

I learned there is no *correct choice,* but there are plenty of excellent ones. 

As far as knives go:
I recently settled on the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji Lite- It is stainless, made of Ginsanko. It is highly regarded here, I haven't found anyone saying their Tanaka chipping on them or many accounts of chipping in general of Ginsanko steel. 

~$200 after shipping http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-240mm-lite/

Other options that were recommended and considered:

Japanese Knife Imports Gesshin Stainless 210mm:
Comes with a saya, made out of AUS8 steel at 58-59 HRC. This means it is super, super chip resistant, not very brittle at all. This was recommended to me time and time again. Downside for you: It only comes in 210mm.
$125 https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...ecials/products/gesshin-stainless-210mm-gyuto

In the same vein: 
Japanese Knife Imports Gesshin Uraku 240mm:
Same great quality as the Gesshin Stainless, and recommended just as much. Everyone I've seen talking about this knife that owns it really enjoys it. Perfect midweight from what I understand. Good at everything.
$165https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gesshin-uraku/products/gesshin-uraku-240mm-stainless-wa-gyuto


These were the three knives that I had to choose from. I went with the Tanaka because everyone raved about the maker in general, not just the specific knife. 

For boards these are some to consider:
Maple End Grain ~$110 20x15x3.5 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00009OWEE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20. Thick, large, end grain, great reviews.
Top Chop Cherry Board ~$130 20x18x2 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QO9CSOC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 Less thick, larger, end grain cherry. (Cherry is generally softer than maple, meaning more likely to scar and need sanding but easier on knife edges.)
Boardsmith Maple ~$200 22x16x2 http://www.theboardsmith.com/product/maple-carolina-slab-2-x-16-x-22/ (People here swear by Boardsmith. They are meticulously made, with larger pieces of end grain than the previous two boards, better for construction and knives. Less glue, less seams to come loose, stronger construction) 

Haven't done enough research on stones to have any input here. I use a KING KDS 1000/6000 stone. It makes knives sharp. I like it. It's cheap. That's all I got.
I use this to hold my stone: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DVNUH6A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
It works. It goes over your sink so it's not very messy. Easy to keep your stones wet.

:2cents:


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## Nemo (Aug 11, 2017)

naifu said:


> I like the stone holder that Chef Knives To Go sells -- Suehiro Deluxe Stone Holder.



I like this stone holder- very versatile.

Mine came from K&S. James is a forum vendor and offers very good after sales service. JKI also carries it and Jon's reputation for great service and good advice is legendary.

I can't offer personal experience with CKTG however some forum members have described getting pretty ordinary service from CKTG. 

I use an end grain board (mine is Australian Jarrah) for veggies and a Japanese rubber board (got mine at K&S) for meat. The rubber board goes inthe dishwasher, which is nice. I suggest that when you get to NC, you should check out some local boardmakers. Some are forum members & vendors. A high quality board is worthwhile. IME, the camry analogy (cheap but does everything you need and is reliable) does not work for wood boards. A cheap one may fall apart in short order.

I use Naniwa Chosera (Professional is basically the same) stones and they are quick, offer good feedback, do everything I need and are S&G. The Gesshin stones have a very good reputation and I suspect that if I could benefit from JKIs free domestic USA delivery, I'd have tried more than one. However, these are not Camry stones and I can't really give an insight into whether Camry type stones areworth the savings.


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## Nemo (Aug 11, 2017)

As far as knives go, note that there is a trade off between food release and thinness behind the edge, which is dependent mainly on how the whole blade face is ground (shaped). How the Camry analogy works here depends on what you think you need in a knife which will probably change as you learn more. Warning: this is a rabbit hole. The sweet spot is in the 200-350 usd range IMO

It's worth a chat with Jon at JKI. His cheaper stainless options get a lot of good reports, as do knives like Ginga (actually, most of his knives do). The only one of his knives that I have is a (second hand) Gengetsu semistainless. This knife is a brilliant performer, relitavely thin, but with a clever grind that gives it much better food release than it has a right to have given its thinness. Of all of the knives that I'll list here, it has one of the best tradeoffs between thinness behind the edge and food release The value proposition is pretty good.

The Tanakas are good value and great performers and the K&S versions have nice handles F&F. My blue 2 (thinner grind than Najishi that's currently available) came very sharp from K&S. I'm not sure if the Lite versions come sharpened or not.

The Kurosaki Syousin Chiku are available in KU or Migaki. Both are stainless clad blue super carbon steel. My Migaki is a thinnish knife with good food release given its thinness. It came very sharp from K&S and had a rounded spine & choil.

Although I don't particuarly care for Damascus in a working knife, I think the Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi is great value. A very good balance of thinness behind the edge and food release, just a tiny step behind gengetsu in both departments. It is quite a tall blade. The damascus (suminagashi) pattern is quite demure. It's fully stainless R2 (PM) core with great edge retention and good (but not quiiiiiite carbon good) sharpenability. The spine and choil seem eased but not rounded. For an extra cost, you can get the Shinko Kurokumo which has an etched (brighter) damascus pattern, rounded spine and choil and a very nice handle.

Yoshikane SKD hammered is a stainless clad semisatainless core with a hammered finish that I find quite attractive. It gets very sharp very easily and has pretty good edge retention. It's a sightly thicker knife with very good food release and a nice flat profile thst stays tall for much of its length. The handle is a basic D shaped ho wood but the spine & choil are well rounded.

You may even want to look at Tojiro HSPS. It has a fairly thin grind with OK food release, but is a step behind the other knives mentioned here in that trade off. The steel is an undisclosed PM steel that's easy to sharpen. Fit and finish is a bit ordinary. The spine and choil are downright sharp and the handle doesn't quite line up with the bolster (but so badly that you worry about food safety). It's brilliant value but needs some work.

Lots of good value options out there. Where your Camry sweet spot is depends on what you value in a knife.

Edit: A good value thinner knife is Akifusa, which was my first good knife. Made from very hard SRS15 stainless PM steel which is very hard and it has looooooong edge retention without being difficult to sharpen at all. It has a quite a thin grind. F&F is good (spine and choil could do with a bit of work) but the cladding is very soft and gets scratched easily. JKI has a knife made out of the same stuff, the Kagero. I don't know whether the Kagero has the same grind or not.

Ryusen Blazen is is a bit more expensive but is a very good knife. Great fit and finish and a fairly thin grind maybe just a bit thicker than the Akifusa (but I am comparing 210mm Akifusa to 240mm Blazen). Made from R2/SG2 PM steel (like the Shiro Kamo Syousin Siminagashi). Good edge retention. Feels so well balanced in the hand. JKI sells them in USA.


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## JaVa (Aug 12, 2017)

What he said! :doublethumbsup:

Plus Itinomonn SS @ JNS and Wakui SS clad W2 @ K&S.


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## naifu (Aug 12, 2017)

> It's worth a chat with Jon at JKI. His cheaper stainless options get a lot of good reports, as do knives like Ginga (actually, most of his knives do). The only one of his knives that I have is a (second hand) Gengetsu semistainless. This knife is a brilliant performer, relitavely thin, but with a clever grind that gives it much better food release than it has a right to have given its thinness. Of all of the knives that I'll list here, it has one of the best tradeoffs between thinness behind the edge and food release The value proposition is pretty good.



+1
Gesshin Uraku SS 210 Gyuto is my first knife. I chose it specifically to learn how to sharpen and how to thin the blade, and it has paid off in spades. Not only did I learn a lot and still learning, but this is an awesome knife now that I have thinned it. In hindsight, I wish I would have chosen the 240mm version of this knife, but I still use this daily at home. It takes a nice edge with a little work, holds it for a long time, and I have not had any problems with chipping even though it is pretty thin now. Very nice first knife.


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## holdmyphone (Aug 12, 2017)

If we're talking about a combined budget for a knife, stones and cutting board, I would say GO BIG on the end grain cutting board. It is the best thing to invest in out of the three. It will outlast both the knives and the stones. There are many good knives for a moderate price, and before long you may find that you want to upgrade, try out new ones, etc... But the cutting board will still be there.


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## pd7077 (Aug 12, 2017)

Matt Bork (BorkWood; one of the vendors here) is based in NC. I have one of his 24" x 18" x 2" end grains, and he's currently doing a couple of knife blocks for me. Great guy to work with, and is definitely worth you checking out.


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## naifu (Aug 13, 2017)

> I haven't sharpened before but plan to learn and practice before buying the gyuto.
> 
> Is my current knife good to practice on?
> 
> ...



You're 8 inch Chicago Cutlery chef knife is good for practice for a basic edge. I have an old stainless knife set that is very difficult to get a good edge, and it seems to be hard on my stones because the steel is so hard. These also have thick choil, so they are not easy to thin. This thread about thinning inspired me to purchase an Uraku from Jon to learn to thin and sharpen. The videos from Jon were very helpful, but practicing and learning from mistakes was necessary for me. For example, I realized that I was sawing into the middle of the left side of the blade because I must have been putting pressure in that area. To summarize, expect that you will make some mistakes and leave scratches on your knife during the first couple of sharpening sessions.

There are other options besides the JKI Holder and tray. I like the holder (Suehiro), but you could also pair this with the stone bridge or sink bridge that Jon sells, or you could build your own bridge from a piece of lumber. Jon uses the stone bridge, Suehiro holder, plus Cambro clear food pan.

The Gesshin stone set is good. I have it. I also have a 220 grit stone. Consider a stone flattener or a couple. I like the Atoma flatteners because they are large and easy to get a good grip, and they do not stick to your stones. I have the 140, 400, 1200 grit Atoma diamond flattening plates.


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## SurlyBastage (Aug 14, 2017)

This is a great help. Thank you for all of the great responses so far. 

A few notes and questions - 

*Board* 

I will probably go with the Boardsmith walnut and maple but will look at Top Chop Butcher Block and Matt Bork (Bork Wood) as well. 

I think the Hi-Soft is more than I want to spend. 

For meats I will probably go with the 12" x 16" walnut and maple Boardsmith or a Sani-Tuff. 

* Sharpening * 

I will probably go with the JKI three stone set. 

Do you find a diamond flattening plate worth the money over a wallboard screen/tile set up and, if so, why? 

What advantage does the stone bridge/stone holder /food pan have over the less expensive tray and holder set up? 

* Cheap Knife for Sharpening Practice * 

Would you recommend practicing on something other than my SS Chicago Cutlery knife? 

The idea of a cheap carbon cleaver makes me smile. 

Would this be the best thing to breakdown and debone a whole chicken? 


* 240 Gyuto (lefty) * 

I was able to look at some pictures on a larger screen recently. Damascus, hammered, and kurouchi are not my flavor. 

* Out of Consideration - * 

Tojiro HSPS - does not have a wa handle. 

Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminigashi - Damascus. 

Yoshikane SD - hammered

Itinomonn StainLess - I would rather not mess with flipping the D-shaped handle. 

Ryusen Blazen - not a wa handle. 

Kurosaki Syousin Chiku Migaki - This one is so pretty it made me wish I didn't want stainless. 

Wakui SS clad W2 - Going with stainless. 

Gesshin Ginga - not listed as lefty friendly


* Under Consideration - * 

Gesshin Uraku

Gesshin Kagero - it might be too short for my liking

Akifusa 

Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji Lite

Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji 

The Sukenari Ginsanko and Sukenari SG2 were not mentioned but seem appealing. How do these compare to the others on the list? 

The Gesshins indicate lefty friendly. What about the others? 

For the Tanakas, how big of a difference is there with the rounded spine and choil?


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## foody518 (Aug 14, 2017)

Ginga is more Lefty friendly than the Uraku is
Also, as a lefty, I have not had any problems with a righty D-handle


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## malexthekid (Aug 14, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Ginga is more Lefty friendly than the Uraku is


Not a left here. But i would agree with this. They are so thin i doubt any asymmetry would have a big impact.


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## JaVa (Aug 14, 2017)

James will probably flip the Itinomonns D handle for you if requested. Worth atleast an email IMO. 
...When they're back in stock that is.


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## SurlyBastage (Aug 17, 2017)

From Josh at JKI - 

Gesshin Uraku 240mm Stainless Wa-Gyuto

Robust grind, tough and durable steel, gets really sharp, good edge retention, a bit time-consuming to sharpen, ho wood handle and saya.

Gesshin Uraku 240mm Stainless Wa-Gyuto with Red Lacquerware Handle and Saya

Same performance as the knife above, but has a handpainted lacquerware handle and saya...if you prefer a flashier look.

Gonbei 240mm Hammered Damascus Wa-Gyuto

Thinner than the Uraku, it will move through foods with less resistance. It will have better edge sharpness, it will sharpen more easily, and will have better edge retention than the Uraku. Ho wood handle.

Gesshin Ginga 240mm Stainless Wa-Gyuto

This one is the thinnest and hardest of the group. This is the best performer. It will get the sharpest, will sharpen the most easily, and will have the best edge retention. It is thin enough to warrant additional care and maintenance.


James at K&S indicated that the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji, "while is great, is quite thin behind the edge and will chip if you don't have good experience with it. It is just the nature of a super super thin knife... 

... I think the Sukenari Ginsanko / SG2 represent great value and is more suitable for you." 

* Sharpening * 

Do you find a diamond flattening plate worth the money over a wallboard screen/tile set up and, if so, why? 

What advantage does the stone bridge/some holder /food pan have over the less expensive tray and holder set up from JKI? 

* Cheap Knife for Sharpening Practice * 

Would you recommend practicing on something other than my SS Chicago Cutlery knife? 

Any cheapies that would be good for sharpening practice and good to breakdown and debone a whole chicken? 

* 240 Gyuto (lefty) *

_ Under Consideration - _ 

Itinomonn Stainless - does this develop a patina? 

Gesshin Ginga

Gesshin Uraku 

Sukenari Ginsanko

Sukenari SG2

Any thoughts that might help me narrow down the list?


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## Duckfat (Aug 17, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> I have to take exception with your recommendation. A board like the one you linked to is very hard on edges. (Ask me how I know.) A Sani-Tuff is vastly better on the knife's edge, and even though it is four times the price, it will also last forever.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ADPFXH2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20




I don't know why any one would choose either of these unless they were forced to in a professional environment. Both hard on edges, slow and generally miserable to work with. If you need to save money check for Michigan Maple Block overstocks on overstock.com. A good board doesn't have to be overly expensive.


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## Duckfat (Aug 17, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I can't offer personal experience with CKTG however some forum members have described getting pretty ordinary service from CKTG. .




No idea what "ordinary" service means but I've ordered from them several times over the years with out issue. Just about any vendor you can list will have some quirks. Most of the disdain for that vendor comes from a very old whizzing contest. No reason to worry about any of that if they carry what you want in stock at a favorable price. Having said that I really disliked their marketing tactics but I've seen some unsavory bits from other vendors that get a lot of attention as well. No ones perfect. 
I've also used JCK many times as well as Korin when they have their Sale events.


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## JaVa (Aug 17, 2017)

Itinomonn (semi) SS has a semi stainless core steel. Only the core steel will develop a cool grey patina over time, It'll take a long while though as the semi SS is has mild reactivity. It's the best of both worlds as you get a very carbon like sharpening experience with ease of sharpening and edge keenness, but SS like edge retention and ease of maintenance. 

It has quite a flat profile with long flat spot and a nice thin tip. Grind is a good balance between food release and thin behind the edge cutting abilities. It's a bit more robust at the heel to ad strength and get's thinner closer to tip. I really like the distal taper too.

From the the two Sukenaris I'd choose the SG2 version. I haven't used either though, but based on that Sukenari is more well known for their work with SG2 than with ginsanko, The SG2 version would be more appealing to me. 

All good optons IMO and you can't go wrong with any of them. :thumbsup:


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## SurlyBastage (Aug 30, 2017)

I think I have it narrowed to the two Sukenari's. 

I understand the SG2 is better for toughness, sharpness and edge retention but is harder to sharpen than the Ginsanko. 

How much harder is the SG2 to sharpen? 
Would it be too difficult for a newbie?


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## Nemo (Aug 30, 2017)

SurlyBastage said:


> I think I have it narrowed to the two Sukenari's.
> 
> I understand the SG2 is better for toughness, sharpness and edge retention but is harder to sharpen than the Ginsanko.
> 
> ...


I haven't used either Sukenari.

I'm not sure if of SG2 is tougher, but In my experience of other SG2 knives, it may be made a little harder and certainly more abrasion resistant (giving excellent edge retention). The other SG2 knives that I have used are not really very hard to sharpen.


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## Chef Doom (Aug 31, 2017)

You are overwhelmed because you are trying to keep up with the Joneses. You will need a starter knife. After 6 months of cooking and sharpening you will be glad you got that starter knife. No damascus, hammer, or any other fancy finish. Anybody that suggests otherwise is a shady door to door salesman.

Get a 1000 or 2000 stone and stick with that stone for a good while until you have a strong need to go up or down in grit.

Cant go wrong with a good end grain board. That is a worthy splurg that I can get behind.


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## SurlyBastage (Aug 31, 2017)

I am not so much worried about keeping up with anyone but rather thought it might be a good idea to get something I would not outgrow in six months. 

Do most think it is a better idea to get a starter knife or jump in with something decent that I can be satisfied with for a long time?


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## valgard (Aug 31, 2017)

SurlyBastage said:


> I am not so much worried about keeping up with anyone but rather thought it might be a good idea to get something I would not outgrow in six months.
> 
> Do most think it is a better idea to get a starter knife or jump in with something decent that I can be satisfied with for a long time?


Fat chance u will not want another one, might as well start with something you are not afraid to f*** up while learning to sharpen. Also will allow you to better appreciate what characteristics you value in the knife and better enjoy the next level. My $0.02.


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## Chef Doom (Aug 31, 2017)

Also that knife you will outgrow will be a great beater when you need to perform the dirty jobs that you wish to avoid with its replacement.

Let the second or third knife be fancy smancy with the ohhs and ahhs.


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## SurlyBastage (Sep 3, 2017)

valgard said:


> Fat chance u will not want another one, might as well start with something you are not afraid to f*** up while learning to sharpen. Also will allow you to better appreciate what characteristics you value in the knife and better enjoy the next level. My $0.02.



I appreciate your thoughts and am considering this option, though right now I am still leaning toward getting one of the Sukenari's and getting another type of knife to work on my sharpening skills. 

I asked about getting another type that would be cheap, handy and good for sharpening practice and so far have the recommendation of a cleaver. 

Any other recommendations? 
Would the cleaver be good for breaking down a whole chicken? 
What are cleavers generally used for?


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## Chef Doom (Sep 3, 2017)

Traditionally cleavers all all purpose or general purpose Chinese cooking knives. They can very in size and weight depending on desires but for the most part work the same. Most common tasks are lots of chopping.

As a warning, cleavers tend to be a love em or hate him tool and nobody knows what camp they will fall into until they are forced to use one for a couple weeks.

If you can borrow one that would be great but I was about 8 knive in before I aquired one. You can get inexpensive cleavers at asian grocery stores and it wont hurt your wallet if you discover they are not your flavor.


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## naifu (Sep 4, 2017)

> Would the cleaver be good for breaking down a whole chicken?



I don't think so -- too cumbersome. I use this: MUNETOSHI KUROUCHI 170MM WA BUTCHER. Purists would probably want to use a Honesuki style knife. A couple of other inexpensive examples: RINKAKU 150MM SEMI-STAINLESS HONESUKI and GESSHIN STAINLESS 150MM HONESUKI


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## Chef Doom (Sep 5, 2017)

Martin Yan would disagree.

[video=youtube;h7m4XAVmFFI]https://youtube/h7m4XAVmFFI&feature=related[/video]


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## Panamapeet (Sep 5, 2017)

valgard said:


> Fat chance u will not want another one, might as well start with something you are not afraid to f*** up while learning to sharpen. Also will allow you to better appreciate what characteristics you value in the knife and better enjoy the next level. My $0.02.



Some truth bombs being dropped here imho


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## WOK-a-holic (Sep 5, 2017)

I use my SUIEN vc CLEAVER on whole chickens regularly..... just like Martin yan .
(but much slower for safety) 
with no problem. :moonwalk:


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## aaamax (Sep 5, 2017)

here's my take.
you obviously find knives interesting enough to be engaged rather well in this thread, good for you. It means you are already infected, lol. 
So lets not play it safe.
my advice is to buy a good knife in the sweetspot as @Nemo mentioned because you will not out grow it and it will always be a desirable knife with all the positive attributes you will expect in a top shelf, hand made blade. Plus, were talking about only an extra 100 dollars or so from a more budget minded piece, that will not hold its own once you start expanding your tastes and desires.

As for practice knife, hell, you go to the thriftstore and buy an old rusty carbon blade for pennies and have fun. And as far as ruining your good blade while learning to sharpen, well, I don't think that will happen. you have to take a whole lot of metal off of a Gyuto before it would be considered ruined, especially if you go with a 1-2k stone as our resident soothsayer @Chef Doom recommended. 
Cheers.


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## naifu (Sep 5, 2017)

> Martin Yan would disagree.



Impressive, yet I will continue with the Munetoshi butcher myself.


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## StonedEdge (Sep 5, 2017)

Where the honesuki really shines vs a more "western" style boning knife is with hanging butchery. Although I can't say I've hung a bird for breakdown in my kitchen, the tip of the honesuki is unparalleled (IMO) when it comes to maneuverability in between joints and inside the hip area where the "oyster" piece of delicious dark meat resides. 

Either the munetoshi butcher or a honesuki will be serviceable boning knives, the munetoshi will be more versatile however.

Might as well get both! &#129315;


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## Chef Doom (Sep 5, 2017)

@aaamax I wish I could have found cheap carbon blades at local discount stores easily. 99% is stainless. I'm not knocking stainless, just wish there was more variety.


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## Jkts (Sep 6, 2017)

I have a few boning knives and love using honesuki's to break down chickens. The munetoshi has the same general profile, maybe slightly sturdier. I'm sure it would work just as well. 

While cleavers would also be fine for breaking down chickens, you'd have to find one suited for that purpose. The sharper veggie cleavers might not be the best choice.


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## SurlyBastage (Mar 9, 2018)

Once again, thank you for all the great information and advice.

I am still in the process of getting everything. 

So far I have gotten the Gesshin stone set flattening plate, bridge, and stoneholder from jki, as well as a Cambro food pan. 

I will soon get a Hinoki board for proteins
and a Boardsmith Walnut/ Cherry Border Board 2&#8243; x 16&#8243; x 22&#8243; (or one like I see on their fb page with walnut, cherry, and maple) for everything else. 

For the knife... 

There are very good posts in this thread arguing between getting an inexpensive gyuto for now before moving on to something else and getting a nicer knife now. 

Aaamax's thoughts speak to me the most about foregoing the entry level route. I have revisited the knives in this post and think I have I narrowed down to two. 

Sukenari R2

Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji

I originally removed the Tanaka Ginsan from the list based on James' feedback about it not being great for newbies but I see it recommended for newbies as a great value and performer quite often. 

Should I keep it off the list/is it much more likely to chip than the Sukenari? 

How will these two compare performance-wise? 

Are they close enough in ease of sharpening that it should not be a consideration?

How do they compare with respect feel on the stones? 

Etc.


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## JaVa (Mar 10, 2018)

Did James mention that a R2 steel gyuto would suit a beginner better over ginsanko or was it the more about the grind of the knives? I have no experience with Sukenari knives, but I own two R2 gyutos and two ginsan gyutos and I've never had any chipping issues with any of them. In that regard both should be fine. 

The Sukenari might be thicker behind the edge for durability, but that will come in the expense of cutting performance. It's always a compromise between different properties. Which trait is more important to you considering your cutting style? Pure performance or durability? 

Ginsanko is nicer on the stones a little easier too, but R2 is not that difficult to sharpen either. Ginsan will hold on to a fresh edge quite a while longer, but R2 will hold on to an ok edge for longer over all. Again either would be fine. 

I like ginsanko steel more, but R2 is fun too.


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## rick alen (Mar 10, 2018)

I never had a Ginsan piece to compare with, but I think with a proper micro-bevel R2 would hold a sharp edge longer the Ginsan. The high-carbide PM steels don't have the edge stability of conventional steels, but the micro-bevel takes care of that, and with the very fine carbides of R2 only little max sharp is lost with the MB. Max sharp dosen't hold up to the board anyway, strictly for razors, sashimi and cutting in hand.


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## SurlyBastage (Mar 11, 2018)

JaVa said:


> Did James mention that a R2 steel gyuto would suit a beginner better over ginsanko or was it the more about the grind of the knives?



It is because of the grind. He said the Tanaka is very thin behind the edge and will "chip if you don't have good experience with it."


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## rick alen (Mar 11, 2018)

I'd say don't fret a thin edge. Just don't twist it on the board, or do anything to cause it to slam down hard. Take it slow at first and develop good technique. Do the rough stuff with your current knife, and maybe enjoy thinning it a bit while learning sharpening.


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## JaVa (Mar 11, 2018)

What he said!


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## dafox (Mar 11, 2018)

JaVa said:


> What he said! :doublethumbsup:
> 
> Plus Itinomonn SS @ JNS and Wakui SS clad W2 @ K&S.



For the Wakui you might look at Bernal cutlery, better prices and better handles.


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## Triggaaar (Mar 15, 2018)

SurlyBastage said:


> It is because of the grind. He said the Tanaka is very thin behind the edge and will "chip if you don't have good experience with it."


I was asking similar questions last summer. I wanted one nice knife. I didn't want to start with a tester to outgrow, and I knew I'd look after whatever I bought. I went with the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji Lite, and I've not had a chip (it would be weird if I did, I'm gentle with it). I did start with it on my silicon chopping board, and I immediately stopped because the blade seemed to sink into the board, so I now only use it on wooden chopping boards (not tried rubber).

I'm really happy with it. I'd probably like the belly to be flatter, as I like to push, pull and chop without much rocking, but that's all.

I haven't yet succumbed to extra knives, but I will in time.

There are plenty of other good options, like the Itinomonn Kasumi (although a bit expensive at the moment I think), or the Tanaka B2 nashiji (SS clad carbon). Also JKI offerings that I didn't consider as I'm in the UK.


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