# Kato std, wh or ku



## avk210 (Jan 24, 2021)

Hey all, Just wondering what are the major differances between these 3 if they are all 240 gyutos. I believe the ku finish is blue steel but unsure of the other two. Thanks for clarifying my noobness


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 24, 2021)

Kato is using B#2 exclusively for all his knives as far as I'm aware. STD and Ku 240's have an edge length of @230 and usually 50mm tall. The WH 240 (Migaki and Ku) is oversized and taller by a couple mm's. The profile is different too. WH have more belly at the tip. I've also noticed the DT is more pronounced for the WH blades ie thicker at the tang, and therefore tend to be heavier (although there are exceptions).


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## avk210 (Jan 24, 2021)

Thanks! Kinda what I thought, I really love my std and was wondering if I should start looking for a wh or if the ku is worth the extra $


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## Panamapeet (Jan 24, 2021)

avk210 said:


> Thanks! Kinda what I thought, I really love my std and was wondering if I should start looking for a wh or if the ku is worth the extra $


They are all worth the extra $$


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## avk210 (Jan 24, 2021)

lol, thats exactly what I thought


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## Matus (Jan 24, 2021)

WH and STD have the same grind (I have seen WH weighting anywhere between 235 - 280g , so keep in mind there there is a variation and the same will be true for STD), but as was mentioned the WH is taller & longer. Mine is just under 240g, 54mm tall and 245 on edge.

STD has been long time made from white#2, Kato has been using blue #2 in the past year or two.

It is not known what steel WH is made of, apparently Kato himself does not know. He has a way to process it that works and that's it. So there is no point to try to hope it is something "rare and special", it may well be white#2 or maybe some old Swedish steel, who knows. Unless someone sends their WH in for metallurgic testing, we may never know.

KU is wide bevel and apparently has thicker grind than the two above.


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## Iggy (Jan 24, 2021)

Simple...

Workhorse = my favorite profile, best geometry (I assume due to different profile), not so great heat treat... way too brittle
STD = best heat treat and steel properties (White #2 not blue...), good geo but I liked the Workhorse ones better, profile not really my favorite
KU Workhorse = worst cutting performance, most rustic, also way too brittle...
KU STD = ??? ...haven't tried

Judging on 7 katos I've owned over the years, most of them bought NIB. If I could choose I would take a Workhorse profile/geo with his STD White#2 heat treat

Really don't understand the hype on the KU ones...


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 24, 2021)

Iggy said:


> Really don't understand the hype on the KU ones...


Mostly rarity. He makes fewer Ku knives. @ynot1985 seems to think they are better than the Migaki but I'm not sure why although he has plenty of experience so maybe can weigh in with his reasoning.


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## Panamapeet (Jan 24, 2021)

Iggy said:


> Simple...
> 
> Workhorse = my favorite profile, best geometry (I assume due to different profile), not so great heat treat... way too brittle
> STD = best heat treat and steel properties (White #2 not blue...), good geo but I liked the Workhorse ones better, profile not really my favorite
> ...


To be honest the 210 ku wh i have is one of the best i have tried...


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## Wdestate (Jan 24, 2021)

avk210 said:


> Thanks! Kinda what I thought, I really love my std and was wondering if I should start looking for a wh or if the ku is worth the extra $


 The 240 KU.i used was a wedging monster, wouldnt even entertain the idea.of paying even half of the going rate. Even if some.are saying they think they perform better it sounds like to me that means they are inconsistent so id avoid that one unless.you are familiar with a seller or.get a chance.to use first


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## Iggy (Jan 24, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Mostly rarity. He makes fewer Ku knives. @ynot1985 seems to think they are better than the Migaki but I'm not sure why although he has plenty of experience so maybe can weigh in with his reasoning.



I mean it's all a question of perspective and taste. Some like wedgier blades. I do sometimes. I really like my Heijis for example, but the Kato KU was way worse in that area... 

Although food release is quite good on the other hand...


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## ynot1985 (Jan 24, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Mostly rarity. He makes fewer Ku knives. @ynot1985 seems to think they are better than the Migaki but I'm not sure why although he has plenty of experience so maybe can weigh in with his reasoning.



I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion. I collect both KU Katos and Shigs. That doesn’t mean it cuts better. I have more kasumi than KUs


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## preizzo (Jan 24, 2021)

I have tried four wh in the last 6 years and I have one std in shirogami 2 and a Ku in aogami 2 

Definitely the Ku is the thickest but still is a good cutter

The standard is still thicker then the wh and a thin bit shorter at the heel,same grind on both

Best of all ? The STD 
Worth have all of them and even more ?
Yes 
Damascus?I would love to have one ,but I got two mazakis Damascus instead


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 24, 2021)

ynot1985 said:


> I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion. I collect both KU Katos and Shigs. That doesn’t mean it cuts better. I have more kasumi than KUs


My bad it was @danemonji 





Flipper alert


If you need to ask - directly from JNS of course - just check their ‘sold’ items.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Moooza (Jan 24, 2021)

The finish on the KU is is so bad. Rarity is the only thing driving them up I reckon.

It's weird, because he can do it, the finish on his damascus are Shig level, kikuryu is average, but I prefer the STD.


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## avk210 (Jan 24, 2021)

Thanks for all the clarity, still might have to get a ku to see for myself


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## Panamapeet (Jan 24, 2021)

Moooza said:


> The finish on the KU is is so bad. Rarity is the only thing driving them up I reckon.
> 
> It's weird, because he can do it, the finish on his damascus are Shig level, kikuryu is average, but I prefer the STD.


 Kikuryu is average


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 24, 2021)

Moooza said:


> The finish on the KU is is so bad. Rarity is the only thing driving them up I reckon.
> 
> It's weird, because he can do it, the finish on his damascus are Shig level, kikuryu is average, but I prefer the STD.


In what way do you think the Ku is 'so bad'? I would say its extremely consistent across the different models. It doesn't rub off unlike some and isn't an 'applied' finish. Ku is supposed to be rustic and imperfect which is how the forge makes it. If its perfect and even like say on a Shig it raises questions.

I would also say the Kato Dammy is a level above Shig Kitaeji in aesthetics and finesse.


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## tcmx3 (Jan 24, 2021)

Iggy said:


> Simple...
> 
> Workhorse = my favorite profile, best geometry (I assume due to different profile), not so great heat treat... way too brittle
> STD = best heat treat and steel properties (White #2 not blue...), good geo but I liked the Workhorse ones better, profile not really my favorite
> ...



my workhorse has just about the worst edge retention of any knife I own, though it's fine still. definitely in the same ballpark as decent white steel treatments.

I just like the rest of the knife so much idc.

although tbh white steel retention has never bothered me much anyway. like some kind of psycho I actually like sharpening.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 25, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> my workhorse has just about the worst edge retention of any knife I own, though it's fine still. definitely in the same ballpark as decent white steel treatments.
> 
> I just like the rest of the knife so much idc.
> 
> although tbh white steel retention has never bothered me much anyway. like some kind of psycho I actually like sharpening.


In terms of edge retention I would say my 210 WH 'mystery white' is noticeably better than W#2. TBH I actually prefer it to the B#2 core steel. The grind is super thin above the edge but is very stable and maintains that edge just as well as my TF W#1 blades.


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## ynot1985 (Jan 25, 2021)

Moooza said:


> The finish on the KU is is so bad. Rarity is the only thing driving them up I reckon.
> 
> It's weird, because he can do it, the finish on his damascus are Shig level, kikuryu is average, but I prefer the STD.



I’m not disagreeing on this but I like the marks on the KU. Almost like a fingerprint. Very handy to track the history of ownership based on the marking vs what people had posted online. 

I have seen people claim to own knives that they don’t actually own. Based on the markings, it’s physically in front of me


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 25, 2021)

ynot1985 said:


> I have seen people claim to own knives that they don’t actually own. Based on the markings, it’s physically in front of me


Such odd behavior


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## danemonji (Jan 25, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> My bad it was @danemonji
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes and still believe this. I like Kato's Ku more than his migaki. It's about its geometry its ease of maitenance and character. The markings on the KU show the hammer blows the marks of the maker in the fabric of the knife. I also like the contrast from the black ku to the soft polished steel, the way the kanji are more texturized.
Plus they are excellent cutters with great edge retention.


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## Iggy (Jan 25, 2021)

danemonji said:


> ...
> Plus they are excellent cutters with great edge retention.



I understand the appeal and aesthetics of the KU but at least or the KU Workhorse Nakiri your statement is really just wrong.

Edge retention not good...
Edge stability not good...
Cutting performance really a big step downwards from the STD and WH Migaki...

Maybe the KU (not WH) Gyuto are very different...


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## danemonji (Jan 25, 2021)

Iggy said:


> I understand the appeal and aesthetics of the KU but at least or the KU Workhorse Nakiri your statement is really just wrong.
> 
> Edge retention not good...
> Edge stability not good...
> ...


I have the standard and Morihei versions from last year both in blue 2. Same goes for some of his standard nakiri which are bough from Ginza Kikuhide which are also blue2. To be honest not sure what went in the early versions of katos from the wh line, but current knifes are great from my point of view.


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## Iggy (Jan 25, 2021)

I mean look at this choil... Kato WH Kurouchi Nakiri 180, bough 2016







I know choil shots doesn't tell the whole story but here it was accurate...

I mean, it's a pretty knife but also pretty useless... 

As I said, of course, I cannot judge how the KU improved since then. Stopped buying Kato's since the prices raised like crazy...
Maybe also it's worse on a rather short nakiri and the thick workhorse type of grind works better on a longer blade I imagine

But for reference. Also bought a Shig KU 180 Nakiri at the same time which was a significant better cutter than the Kato..

Iggy


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## ynot1985 (Jan 25, 2021)

Iggy said:


> I mean look at this choil... Kato WH Kurouchi Nakiri 180, bough 2016
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You want to sell that?


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## Iggy (Jan 25, 2021)

ynot1985 said:


> You want to sell that?



Did already 

Not much room in my kitchen besides my favourite Heiji KU Nakiri


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## preizzo (Jan 25, 2021)

Bought this back in 2016 ,but I believe is a bit older , maybe 2014 /2015 ?


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## Iggy (Jan 25, 2021)

@preizzo Did you thin that?


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## preizzo (Jan 25, 2021)

Nope ,never ,just put a kasumi on it


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## danemonji (Jan 25, 2021)

Ok so this is my kato ku nakiri 165mm (170mm actually) and as you can see the distal taper goes into a 1.5mm thin blade pretty fast so the choil just hides the truth about the blade which is quite thin and nimble. But still the choil shows it's not thick at the bottom either









My 155mm kato nakiri is even more thin at the base in one of the sweetest choils i've seen. Yes that's standard kato ku. 
Perhaps the initial design changed and newer iterations from last year reflect that. Even his wh gyuto 240 is much thinner then what it used to.
And none of the above have been thinned.


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## F-Flash (Jan 25, 2021)

Panamapeet said:


> Kikuryu is average


The f&f on kikuryu is below average to be honest. Many 200 dollar knives have better f&f.


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## Moooza (Jan 25, 2021)

F-Flash said:


> The f&f on kikuryu is below average to be honest. Many 200 dollar knives have better f&f.


Exactly. They are stunning, huge presence, can't take your eyes off it, and that's not even mentioning the amazing western handles, but the f&f on a Kato damascus is leagues better.


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## Panamapeet (Jan 25, 2021)

F-Flash said:


> The f&f on kikuryu is below average to be honest. Many 200 dollar knives have better f&f.





Moooza said:


> Exactly. They are stunning, huge presence, can't take your eyes off it, and that's not even mentioning the amazing western handles, but the f&f on a Kato damascus is leagues better.



I’d love to see your kikuryus next to a 200 dollar knife! Can you guys make some pictures?


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## F-Flash (Jan 25, 2021)

Panamapeet said:


> I’d love to see your kikuryus next to a 200 dollar knife! Can you guys make some pictures?


Don't have it anymore, but here is one Pic. The spine and choil were pretty rough and the whole knife had deep grind marks.


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## Panamapeet (Jan 25, 2021)

F-Flash said:


> Don't have it anymore, but here is one Pic. The spine and choil were pretty rough and the whole knife had deep grind marks.
> View attachment 111396


That sure looks terrible indeed...


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## lemeneid (Jan 25, 2021)

Sh1t F&F, please throw it away, preferably to me as I have uses for knives with sh1t F&F.


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## khashy (Jan 25, 2021)

Here are some visual references, hopefully they will help.

Kato Nakiri in use:

Kato Nakiri vs cabbage

Kato WH gyuto in use:

Kato WH Gyuto vs onion

There are other video of Kato in use on my IG, I can’t find them all but I’m sure you’ll come across a good few Katos as you roam around there.


A choil comparison:

Kato gyuto choils

And a profile comparison (WH and Kikuryu on the left, Standard and Dammy on the right):







Everyone will have an opinion, but to me Katos are some of the most lovable blades that there have ever been or there will ever be.


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## avk210 (Jan 25, 2021)

khashy said:


> Here are some visual references, hopefully they will help.
> 
> Kato Nakiri in use:
> 
> ...


nice line up!


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 25, 2021)

F-Flash said:


> Don't have it anymore, but here is one Pic. The spine and choil were pretty rough and the whole knife had deep grind marks.
> View attachment 111396


I doubt it came from Kato looking like that


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 25, 2021)

Had them all except for the Kikuryu that I was never interested in when they were actually available. For me performance wise the std was by far the most impressive. Pre 2016 katos were much better than the later ones, at least what I saw.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 26, 2021)

F-Flash said:


> the whole knife had deep grind marks



Isn't that standard for Kato double bevels? Part of the aesthetic if you will....?

His single bevels have a higher surface finish (stones)


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## F-Flash (Jan 26, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Isn't that standard for Kato double bevels? Part of the aesthetic if you will....?
> 
> His single bevels have a higher surface finish (stones)


It is standard in his double bevels, but nevertheless brings down f&f. 
Katos never were about f&f anyway. More like mystery and choil shots.


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## danemonji (Jan 26, 2021)

So much hate for poor kato. I really don't understand it to be honest. I mean the japanese are freaking obsessed with detail and they love him as a great artist and craftsman. A lot of big knife collectors revear his work. The man is a legend in knife crafting and a swords smith on top, yet some people can't help throwing some dirt at his good name. Is there some sense of acomplishment in denigrating the work of an old master with over 60 years of craft. Show me a knife with overgrind or bend or loose handle please.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 26, 2021)

F-Flash said:


> It is standard in his double bevels, but nevertheless brings down f&f.
> Katos never were about f&f anyway. More like mystery and choil shots.



Perhaps this is overly philosophical... but I think you have to judge fit and finish within the context of what the blacksmith intends. It is unproductive to judge a knife (or anything) by standards it was never meant to meet. In that regard, I dont think Katos have a bad fit and finish.

It is clear that Kato-san has made a deliberate and consistent choice, over many years, to leave the grind marks visible. And not because he is incapable! His single bevels show that he can produce a nice kasumi if he wants. So should we judge his choice by other standards? Rather than asking whether or not the grind marks should be there... ask if he did them well?

I would say that the grind marks suit the overall rustic/'heavy' aesthetics of his knives. Particularly on the kurouchi knives. Fit and finish wise, the Katos I have seen had no obvious high-low spots in their grind, they were straight/true, their profile seemed well executed and the heat-treat seemed fine. Further, while I am not claiming the grind marks are a high art, they at least looked uniform and 'controlled'.

Now! It is fair for a buyer to have a preference for a certain profile/grind/heat-treat/aesthetic and attach a value to that specification. If those parameters don't match the style of a particular blacksmith; within reason, it is not the blacksmith's fault - just a bad pairing.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 26, 2021)

danemonji said:


> *Show me a knife with overgrind or bend* or loose handle please.


[emphasis mine]

Exactly... My thinking on a broad definition of fit and finish.

The handle design/type seem to vary, depending on the vendor. Maybe I read it. Maybe I just assumed it**... but I don't think Kato installs the handles... _If true_... Kato-san shouldnt really be judged on the handles either...

**(a.k.a take this comment with a decent grain of salt)


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## danemonji (Jan 26, 2021)

Oh and one more thing i want to add. Kato san does not set the prices for his knives. I've seen prices in Japan for some of his knives that are a fraction of what they sell on the open market. Most likely he hasn't changed too much the commision for his work over the years.
I find it a bit sad that this humble and simple man who is true to his tradition and craft has to be held responsible for the overcharge that the market sets on his work.


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## Eloh (Jan 26, 2021)

That's all understandable, it's still hard to see a coarse belt grinder finish on a $1000 knife and you cant fault people to mention it imo


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## tcmx3 (Jan 26, 2021)

danemonji said:


> So much hate for poor kato. I really don't understand it to be honest. *I mean the japanese are freaking obsessed with detail* and they love him as a great artist and craftsman. A lot of big knife collectors revear his work. The man is a legend in knife crafting and a swords smith on top, yet some people can't help throwing some dirt at his good name. Is there some sense of acomplishment in denigrating the work of an old master with over 60 years of craft. Show me a knife with overgrind or bend or loose handle please.



interesting, because my understanding is that the Japanese kitchen knife market is often a bit more forgiving of 'character' than the American one.

in fact a lot of the better dealers are working out with knife makers extra finishing steps or doing them themselves. 

I will agree Kato is one of the most talented knifemakers out there though, but I also think that the criticisms in this thread are pretty valid and based on people's personal ownership, and that I havent seen a single person attack Kato as a maker much less a human being.


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## JaVa (Jan 26, 2021)

I've been wondering about the appeal these days. I get they're rare and so sought after. So from collecting point of view totally I get it. But what I don't get is that the reason everyone went all ga ga over Kato (and Toyama for that matter) was mostly that beast mode grind and weight. Other things factor in too, But that's what separated them from the herd. When people realized them at that time it was new and exciting and the very opposite of laser era that interest started shifting away from.

And if I've understood this correctly some weigh these days in the 220g region? (Toyamas B2 SS weighs about 200) And if so they are entering in the world of the middle weights. So where's the appeal anymore? Just another well made middleweight that the world is full of.

If I'd splurge on a Kato only to find out it weighs 220 or less I'd be pretty pissed. It would not be what I would be looking for at all in a Kato (or toyama either) because I wouldn't be getting the experience the guy is known for.

And please be gentle. Not looking to get my head taken off. i like my head, but I am genuinely wondering.


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## tcmx3 (Jan 26, 2021)

JaVa said:


> I've been wondering about the appeal these days. I get they're rare and so sought after. So from collecting point of view totally I get it. But what I don't get is that the reason everyone went all ga ga over Kato (and Toyama for that matter) was mostly that beast mode grind and weight. Other things factor in too, But that's what separated them from the herd. When people realized them at that time it was new and exciting and the very opposite of laser era that interest started shifting away from.
> 
> And if I've understood this correctly some weigh these days in the 220g region? (Toyamas B2 SS weighs about 200) And if so they are entering in the world of the middle weights. So where's the appeal anymore? Just another well made middleweight that the world is full of.
> 
> ...



you cant conflate Toyama and Kato like that.

recent Katos 240s are still in the high 200 gram region.

recent Toyamas and Wats may be thinner, sure, but the grind is still well executed, the heat treat is very good, the price is reasonable, and they're quite tall so they still have their own merits.

but Toyama and Kato were always very different knives.

Im not going to try to justify recent Kato prices though. Im one of the more vocal folks here that while my Kato workhorse is my favorite knife, that I think the current prices for them are out of wack and not worth it. if Im spending >1k on a 240 gyuto it's going to be a honyaki, and that's just the end of it for me. other folks may have differing opinions.

I was lucky enough to grab mine some years ago when they were "just" in the 500 dollar range and I thought it was worth it at that price. I still feel like that's a fair price for a knife like that given you get a garbage handle and no saya but clearly the market disagrees.


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## Gjackson98 (Jan 26, 2021)

In general I will say buying Kato is like going to theater and watch a "super movie" 
Before you go, your friends that have already watched it will keep trying to convince you that this is the greatest movie ever and show you all the spoilers. By the time you arrived at the theater your expectation is so jacked up that anything didn't match the tittle "greatest ever" will be a disappointment. 
The joy of discovery was completely ruined and only left with a check off list like if you are auditing the movie. 

I have owned and used few deviance model that avk210 was asking about; both in 210 and 240 KU, KU WH, Kasumi WH, STD; they are all very different knives and I love them all (maybe not the price).
My experience is like I mentioned earlier with the movie example. I had so much expectation when buying my first Kato (Kato STD 240), I was ready to sell all my knives to just get my hands on one of those. After receiving it in the mail my first impression was " That's it?" this halfAzz finish just caused me more than 1k??? It was waves and waves of disappointments, for a while I thought the choil underfinsh was pittings lol.
However later I realize to truly appreciate Kato's work; it only happens after you are settle with your feelings and unreal expectations.
Kato don't shine till you start using them, try using Kato for a month and go back to other knives and that's when you realize they are so great.


My favorite functional Kato is my KU WH 210 (I also own the 240 but haven't got around to it) 
The profile on my KU WH was perfect to me. It takes the best from both STD and Kasumi WH.
For example the tip is not so tall like a traditional Kasumi WH but with additional heel height. The KU finish really pushes the food release functionality. 



Regarding the price on Kato, the market pricing of the knives are only reasonable if we are willing to pay for it. 
We are paying hundreds and thousands of dollars for old rocks someone digged out from a corner of a mountain and I never seen anybody questioning it.


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## Alder26 (Jan 26, 2021)

Slight off topic here.

Which makers are credited with the start of the Workhorse trend? Is Kato the originator? Toyamabanabe? I got into Japanese knives about 6-7 years ago and I feel like things were starting to trend towards WH grinds already when I started buying. Around that time there was still a lot of discussion of lasers (Gingas and HD2 konosukes were still getting a lot of hype), but I remember a lot of stuff coming out of even Takefu knife village was getting marketed as workhorse-ish. Just curious who the originator is considered


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## preizzo (Jan 26, 2021)

Alder26 said:


> Slight off topic here.
> 
> Which makers are credited with the start of the Workhorse trend? Is Kato the originator? Toyamabanabe? I got into Japanese knives about 6-7 years ago and I feel like things were starting to trend towards WH grinds already when I started buying. Around that time there was still a lot of discussion of lasers (Gingas and HD2 konosukes were still getting a lot of hype), but I remember a lot of stuff coming out of even Takefu knife village was getting marketed as workhorse-ish. Just curious who the originator is considered


Kato I think


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 26, 2021)

Kato didn’t invent the kato workhorse, JNS did.


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## JaVa (Jan 26, 2021)

JNS only made up the label "workhorse". That style of knives existed before that.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 26, 2021)

If your a fan of hand made steel from a craftsman who been working a trade for 60 years. An artist who employs the traditional ways of Japanese blacksmithing, who makes a piece from start to finish. Kato should be on your short list of J knife makers. If you haven’t held or seen an old school Kato... you don’t know what your missing.


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## Panamapeet (Jan 26, 2021)

Gjackson98 said:


> In general I will say buying Kato is like going to theater and watch a "super movie"
> Before you go, your friends that have already watched it will keep trying to convince you that this is the greatest movie ever and show you all the spoilers. By the time you arrived at the theater your expectation is so jacked up that anything didn't match the tittle "greatest ever" will be a disappointment.
> The joy of discovery was completely ruined and only left with a check off list like if you are auditing the movie.
> 
> ...



KU WH 210 . Totally agree on that one


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## JayGee (Jan 26, 2021)

Eloh said:


> That's all understandable, it's still hard to see a coarse belt grinder finish on a $1000 knife and you cant fault people to mention it imo



I think the vertical grind marks are made with a hand cutting/scraping tool called a Sen.


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## danemonji (Jan 26, 2021)

Guys that's a brushed metal finish meant to help with food release not grinder marks. There are many smiths who use this to make a mate metal rather than a glossy finish. The sen is used to scrape metal in order to "carve" the face of the knife and give the righ convexity. I doubt these guys use a coarse grinder in the process of making the knives. That is not a german factory. They will use a file to round the choil or back of the knife and the rest is water stones of various grits. I bet Maxim could offer some details about the process that kato shigefusa and other older smiths use to make the knives and swords, or you can check it on youtube.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 26, 2021)

danemonji said:


> Guys that's a brushed metal finish meant to help with food release not grinder marks. There are many smiths who use this to make a mate metal rather than a glossy finish. The sen is used to scrape metal in order to "carve" the face of the knife and give the righ convexity. I doubt these guys use a coarse grinder in the process of making the knives. That is not a german factory. They will use a file to round the choil or back of the knife and the rest is water stones of various grits. I bet Maxim could offer some details about the process that kato shigefusa and other older smiths use to make the knives and swords, or you can check it on youtube.


Better still watch the video. No straightening wheels, or belt sanders/grinders in sight.


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## parbaked (Jan 26, 2021)

danemonji said:


> I bet Maxim could offer some details about the process that kato shigefusa and other older smiths use to make the knives and swords, or you can check it on youtube.


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## parbaked (Jan 26, 2021)

danemonji said:


> Most likely he hasn't changed too much the commision for his work over the years.


That is what is unattractive to me. 
I don't like the idea of paying such a high premium to vendors if it doesn't trickle down to the craftspeople...


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## ynot1985 (Jan 26, 2021)

parbaked said:


> That is what is unattractive to me.
> I don't like the idea of paying such a high premium to vendors if it doesn't trickle down to the craftspeople...


Most Japanese vendors that I know of are very reasonably priced.


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## nwshull (Jan 26, 2021)

parbaked said:


> That is what is unattractive to me.
> I don't like the idea of paying such a high premium to vendors if it doesn't trickle down to the craftspeople...


Aren't the flippers more the issue with the prices not the vendors? To be honest I never have seen a Kato on JNS so don't really know its price since they sell out so fast. But if the vendors charged what the flippers did, the knives would likely stay in stock longer, and not be targeted by flippers for such fast buys and resales. Part of me would almost rather see the money going through that more legitimate root, than speculative resellers who add no value either making or curating.


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## Gjackson98 (Jan 26, 2021)

Does anyone know how much Kato san gets paid per each knife or batch he makes? 
I will say anything above 40% of market price is well reasonable. Because Kato san himself doesn't have to worry about marketing, advertisements, potential over stock risks, or little things like distribution. Those responsibilities all belong to the retailer like JNS.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 26, 2021)

Time to beat that horse again.


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## Gjackson98 (Jan 26, 2021)




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## khashy (Jan 26, 2021)

danemonji said:


> ... Is there some sense of acomplishment in denigrating the work of an old master with over 60 years of craft...



I think you have hit the nail right on the head. Lately it seems that wanting to convey a sense of ‘I’m too cool to like Katos’ has become fashionable and any excuse goes for the people that feel like they need to join that club.

There is no denying that in the world of kitchen knives, there are better F&F to be had than what Kato does. But that’s neither here nor there, Kato has never been about mirror polishes. If you want art and beauty, buy an Ashi Honyaki, if you want a Kato, buy a Kato, there’s nothing else like it.

For the record, I see the grind marks as a Yoshiaki Fujiwara signature. I recently had a nakiri made by Kato-san’s father restored by Carbon Knife Co. Craig would have put any finish I wanted on it but we both agreed to finish the restoration by having the horizontal grind marks on the blade - it’s not an oversight, those are a part of what a Kato is.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 26, 2021)

avk210 said:


> Hey all, Just wondering what are the major differances between these 3 if they are all 240 gyutos



Re-reading the thread, I am surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet. A benefit to the kurouchi line is lower reactivity. I found the cladding on the standard line to be fairly reactive (without a patina). I don't know if this is a recent phenomenon or has always been the case?? If reactivity/maintenance is a concern for you, I'd recommend the kurouchi finish.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 26, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Re-reading the thread, I am surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet. A benefit to the kurouchi line is lower reactivity. I found the cladding on the standard line to be fairly reactive (without a patina). I don't know if this is a recent phenomenon or has always been the case?? If reactivity/maintenance is a concern for you, I'd recommend the kurouchi finish.


Yup, Migaki is quite reactive when first used. Unlike a lot of my other iron clad knives care needs to be taken initially as a light rust layer will develop if left wet, unattended. Once a good base patina is established things are a lot easier and I get nice blues and oranges.


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## Eloh (Jan 27, 2021)

JayGee said:


> I think the vertical grind marks are made with a hand cutting/scraping tool called a Sen.




Don't think so


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## Luftmensch (Jan 27, 2021)

JayGee said:


> I think the vertical grind marks are made with a hand cutting/scraping tool called a Sen.





Eloh said:


> Don't think so



 agree


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## Eloh (Jan 27, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> No straightening wheels, or belt sanders/grinders in sight.


I wonder why


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 27, 2021)

Eloh said:


> I wonder why


Maybe @ynot1985 or @maksim can give us a definitive answer. Both have visited Kato-san's workshop


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## JayGee (Jan 27, 2021)

Eloh said:


> I wonder why


#interested


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## Panamapeet (Jan 27, 2021)

parbaked said:


> That is what is unattractive to me.
> I don't like the idea of paying such a high premium to vendors if it doesn't trickle down to the craftspeople...


You guys need to stop feeding this absolute piece of nonsense. Just like any other Japanese blacksmiths prices have been increased significantly year by year, and I don’t see any evidence to support your claim


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## ynot1985 (Jan 27, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Maybe @ynot1985 or @maksim can give us a definitive answer. Both have visited Kato-san's workshop



I have not...

Not sure where you get all these assumptions about me from. I have had connections that visit him but not myself. He lives in the countryside


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## hennyville (Jan 27, 2021)

That magic word Sen...


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## Matus (Jan 27, 2021)

parbaked said:


> That is what is unattractive to me.
> I don't like the idea of paying such a high premium to vendors if it doesn't trickle down to the craftspeople...



If I trust what I was told (and I have not reason not to) this is not the case with Kato WH.


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## KO88 (Jan 27, 2021)

this thing is a sen... I really cant imagine how precise and how long it would have take to finish knife with it.
also cant imagine finish would look like this (i did try to highlight the vertical scratches by editing the photo - oldschool Kato WH 240 ; I use the knife regularly):





Btw I had in hands 2more WH Katos gyutos and nakiri or tiny suji and all of them have had the same vertical scratches.
Only Kato I have that has no scratches is the Hunter White/Blue dama (sry dont have better pics now) finish is stunning:


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## Luftmensch (Jan 27, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Once a good base patina is established things are a lot easier and I get nice blues and oranges.



A lot of protein? Our diet is predominantly vegetarian (>90%)... veggies leave a less flatting patina....


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## Luftmensch (Jan 27, 2021)

Speaking of reactivity,

KKF's best "this aint no draw trophy" kato  :






photo credit: @hennyville from post #634717 in the thread: My favorite color is USED .......the unvarnished patina thread!

[If you like the knife, like the original post!]


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## avk210 (Jan 27, 2021)

Anyone got wh they want to get rid of? Or any kato for that matter


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 27, 2021)

I have one I have entertained selling, you’d have to mortgage the house though......


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## avk210 (Jan 27, 2021)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I have one I have entertained selling, you’d have to mortgage the house though......


Cool, i got 2 houses. Only need 1


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## ynot1985 (Jan 28, 2021)

avk210 said:


> Anyone got wh they want to get rid of? Or any kato for that matter


What have you got to trade? I don’t have WH though


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## Luftmensch (Jan 28, 2021)

avk210 said:


> Anyone got wh they want to get rid of? Or any kato for that matter





ynot1985 said:


> What have you got to trade? I don’t have WH though



No workhorse... although maybe @ynot1985 would be willing to trade the Kato tamahagane maguro-kiri that he commissioned when he visited Kato's workshop 

Needs something special though


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## ynot1985 (Jan 28, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> No workhorse... although maybe @ynot1985 would be willing to trade the Kato tamahagane maguro-kiri that he commissioned when he visited Kato's workshop
> 
> Needs something special though


I wish I have something like that lol


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## NO ChoP! (Jan 28, 2021)

Who cares what anyone sells a Kato for. Evidently there's a plethora of people willing to spend huge dollars for one; or three. 

I'll be damned if I spend 2k on a KU knife. That's absurd to me.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 28, 2021)

ynot1985 said:


> I wish I have something like that lol



Oh! I thought you made one together when Kato was your apprentice **


** Ok! I'll stop! This gag is going to fall flat on its face. Given @Corradobrit1's series of faulty memories, I thought it would be funny to attribute incrementally more ridiculous stories to you  Too difficult to pull off subtly though


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## KO88 (Jan 28, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Oh! I thought you made one together when Kato was your apprentice **
> 
> 
> ** Ok! I'll stop! This gag is going to fall flat on its face. Given @Corradobrit1's series of faulty memories, I thought it would be funny to attribute incrementally more ridiculous stories to you  Too difficult to pull off subtly though




And I was thinking that I can recognize @ynot1985 in the reflection on the SEN!


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 28, 2021)

In my defense he did say he was going to pay a visit. Just forgot he cancelled which in hindsight was fortuitous given Kato-san's mother passed away around that time.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 28, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> In my defense he did say he was going to pay a visit. Just forgot he cancelled



Hehe... no defence needed really. I saw it all as well intended. I am sure @ynot1985 did as well  Still, from the other side of the internet, I find the idea of some guy waking up and everybody looking up to them for things that never happened quite hilarious... This just made me chuckle:



ynot1985 said:


> Not sure where you get all these assumptions about me from.






Corradobrit1 said:


> which in hindsight was fortuitous given Kato-san's mother passed away around that time



Oh! That is sad. Poor Kato. I hope he had the opportunity to mourn.


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