# POLL: How much is a Jiro Nakagawa gyuto worth to you?



## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

*Firstly, knives cost what they cost. One person's bargain is another's extravagance. One person's unicorn is another's donkey.

Knives by Jiro Nakagawa are arguably the most buzz worthy knives to come along in a while. I'm curious on how KKF members would valuate this knife (specs below)—based on their own buying criteria? In other words, what would you pay if offered one BNIB.*

Though I've been a KKF member since 2012, I'm still learning a lot when it comes to valuation if knives. Based on comments read on BST and other threads, different collectors use different value systems to determine if the "price is right" (for them).

Reasons why knives are bought might be led by rarity, a particular maker, hype, performance, aesthetics, kitchen needs, an exceptionally good deal, bank account balance, instinct—or simply impulsiveness late at night after one too many beers with the credit card too close at hand.

*SPECIFICATIONS: *

*Specifications:
Jiro Tsuchime Gyuto 240mm Tagayasan Handle 
Brand: Jiro 
Smith: Jiro Nakagawa 
Producing Area: Nagano/ Japan 
Profile: Gyuto 
Size: 240mm 
Steel Type: Carbon Steel 
Steel: Yasuki White (Shirogami) #1, Soft Iron Clad 
Handle: Tagayasan Western 
Total Length: 378mm 
Edge Length: 242mm 
Handle to Tip Length: 246mm 
Blade Height: 54mm 
Thickness: 3.8mm 
Handle Length: 130mm 
Weight: 293g 
Hand Orientation: Ambidextrous 
Date of manufacture: June, 2019*


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 20, 2019)

High end of the $250-450 range. Its too new at this point to justify the hype and associated retail price.


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## labor of love (Aug 20, 2019)

Would really love to hear more about how they perform. I know there is a thread floating around that goes over the initial ootb impressions.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> High end of the $250-450 range. Its too new at this point to justify the hype and associated retail price.


Buyers' set prices as much as makers IMO.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Would really love to hear more about how they perform. I know there is a thread floating around that goes over the initial ootb impressions.



Yeah, me too. Won't be from me, I'm too cheap.


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## labor of love (Aug 20, 2019)

Someone commented that the profile is somewhat shig looking which perked up my ears. However, I’m not sure I’m ready to pay shig price for something that’s similar to shig in profile.
If I saw the right jiro wa gyuto available at the right time I would probably take a chance.
Either way, I just need to know more.


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## Barmoley (Aug 20, 2019)

It looks like it has promise, but I agree that it is too new and untested to have the price it does. It is priced at the level of some very well known and high performing knives. It looks cool and everything, but it has to be something special to fetch the price it does for me.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> It looks like it has promise, but I agree that it is too new and untested to have the price it does. It is priced at the level of some very well known and high performing knives. It looks cool and everything, but it has to be something special to fetch the price it does for me.



Specialness might be low production output (rarity), aesthetics, that lovely hand written note, cool looking handle.


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## parbaked (Aug 20, 2019)

It's not just the handle because his wa-handle knives cost the same as the western handle knives.
I feel like the price includes a few layers mark-ups for Hitohira and downstream retailers.
It would be nice to buy one when I'm in Japan for the same price that Hitohira wholesales it to overseas shops....


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## labor of love (Aug 20, 2019)

Okay, well there is a thread on the performance.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...-part2-performance-initial-impressions.42687/


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

parbaked said:


> It's not just the handle because his wa-handle knives cost the same as the western handle knives.
> I feel like the price includes a few layers mark-ups for Hitohira and downstream retailers.
> It would be nice to buy one when I'm in Japan for the same price that Hitohira wholesales it to overseas shops....



I think (conjecture) that most knives have similar mark ups. I can't imagine vendors significantly hiking prices on a maker's knives that're available at multiple vendors.


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## Barmoley (Aug 20, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Specialness might be low production output (rarity), aesthetics, that lovely hand written note, cool looking handle.


All true. Rarity of a known, high quality, etc item can and does fetch high prices. Rarity of an unknown shouldn't, since rarity is not a benefit in of itself. If I make a knife, I wouldn't expect it to sell for much even though it would be extremely rare. Not comparing myself to Jiro in any way. Like others, I'd like to know more before I spend this much, there are so many excellent alternatives in this price range that this knife would have to really be something to make me buy it for what it is being sold for.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> All true. Rarity of a known, high quality, etc item can and does fetch high prices. Rarity of an unknown shouldn't, since rarity is not a benefit in of itself. If I make a knife, I wouldn't expect it to sell for much even though it would be extremely rare. Not comparing myself to Jiro in any way. Like others, I'd like to know more before I spend this much, there are so many excellent alternatives in this price range that this knife would have to really be something to make me buy it for what it is being sold for.



Perhaps this is where things like hype, mystique, maker's reputation, and marketing works into the equation.

I think the first J-knife I bought was a Misono UX10—it was influenced in no small part to marketing, hype and a video by a Top Chef contestant back in 2011-ish. I also worked not very far from Korin.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> "...shouldn't...,"



yes based on your value system, but it just "is." Jiros sell out the moment they hit the market.


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## Barmoley (Aug 20, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> yes based on your value system, but it just "is." Jiros sell out the moment they hit the market.


I get it, the price is what it is and good for him. Whatever, Jiro sellers are doing to get these prices they are doing it right, just not for me. He might very well be well known to some, not to me so I won't buy for this price, too many excellent alternatives.


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## Elliot (Aug 20, 2019)

Agree with @Corradobrit1 overall. 
The challenge here is the whole concept of price to performance. Some may disagree, but in my opinion, there is no bloody way a Kato is six to eight times as "good" of a knife to a pretty easy to find Yoshikane. Or 10x a Wakui and so on and so on.

That being said, my limited knowledge here also suggests that said Kato is far more "handmade" than the Yoshi. So the labor cost to the maker is greater. I understand that the retail markup may not go to the maker, but it's nonetheless a relevant factor.

Is this a little high priced? Yes. But it's a handmade item from a small shop craftsman operating a one man show. That's pretty much code for high price in all industries.


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## parbaked (Aug 20, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I think (conjecture) that most knives have similar mark ups. I can't imagine vendors significantly hiking prices on a maker's knives that're available at multiple vendors.



You missed my point. Most knives here have 1-2 layers of mark-ups. You can buy a TF, Wantanabe, Heiji, Halcyon, Dalman, Raquin etc either direct from the maker or from a retailer that the maker sold too. That's 1-2 layers of mark-ups.

Others makers like Takeda, Ashi, Jikko, Hinoura, Yoshikane, Takefu brands etc sell direct to overseas retailers. That's 2 layers of mark-ups.

Jiro knives seem to sell exclusively to Hitohira, who then sell the knives direct to consumers or to its network of overseas retailers. That's 3 layers of mark-ups. Hitohira protects its retailers by selling direct to consumers at the same price it sets for its retailers.

I'm just saying that may be one reason the prices seem high for a new maker....


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## labor of love (Aug 20, 2019)

Keeping retail prices up may also keep flipping prices down. If Jiro were introduced to the western market at $650 retail they might just be flipped for $850 anyway.
Either way they sell out instantly so one way or the other we would likely have to pay $850.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

parbaked said:


> You missed my point. Most knives here have 1-2 layers of mark-ups. You can buy a TF, Wantanabe, Heiji, Halcyon, Dalman, Raquin etc either direct from the maker or from a retailer that the maker sold too. That's 1-2 layers of mark-ups.
> 
> Others makers like Takeda, Ashi, Jikko, Hinoura, Yoshikane, Takefu brands etc sell direct to overseas retailers. That's 2 layers of mark-ups.
> 
> ...



I'm not a knife seller, which is why I mentioned "conjecture."

I know that when I sell something made by an artist that's priced at 2K, I take a standard 50% cut. If the artist sells directly to a collector, he/she is not allowed by contract to sell for less than 2K. That same artwork is priced at the same price USD, if sold by a different gallery overseas.

I assume it's the same with knives, where there's essentially a set price from different vendors. But, it's just a guess since I've never been to Japan.


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## Barmoley (Aug 20, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Keeping retail prices up may also keep flipping prices down. If Jiro were introduced to the western market at $650 retail they might just be flipped for $850 anyway.
> Either way they sell out instantly so one way or the other we would likely have to pay $850.


I wonder what about these knives make them sell out instantly at these prices. New maker, they look cool, but performance is relatively unknown, materials are good, but not unique and nothing is known about heat treat, etc. Profile looks good, but not unique, grind sounds good from the review above, but nothing out of the ordinary... It is always interesting to me that some knives sell out in seconds when similar and sometimes better performing and cheaper ones don't. I have to conclude that as much as we talk about performance, etc we actually care more about looks when choosing among the number of relatively similar knives.


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## Sharpchef (Aug 20, 2019)

I don`t know the blacksmith...

Prices are like dust in a hurricane... No knife i know can beat the price/performance ratio of a Herder Santoku. Sad but true... I got knifes in the 2k range and they are that 1950€ more worth ?.... I don`t think so. 

Let the dealers like Maxim find them, maybe they will be as  good as Shigefusa, or  Kato... And sell with even more profit in the next years....


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 20, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I wonder what about these knives make them sell out instantly at these prices. New maker, they look cool, but performance is relatively unknown, materials are good, but not unique and nothing is known about heat treat, etc. Profile looks good, but not unique, grind sounds good from the review above, but nothing out of the ordinary... It is always interesting to me that some knives sell out in seconds when similar and sometimes better performing and cheaper ones don't. I have to conclude that as much as we talk about performance, etc we actually care more about looks when choosing among the number of relatively similar knives.


And this is exactly the reasoning why I wouldn't pay current retail price. I would need to know a LOT more before I invested this much in a relatively unknown/unproven bladesmith and knife.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> And this is exactly the reasoning why I wouldn't pay current retail price. I would need to know a LOT more before I invested this much in a relatively unknown/unproven bladesmith and knife.



I generally feel the same about technology, don't like to buy from the very first release of smartphone and computers, like to wait a little for the bugs to be worked out.

IMO, Jiro makes stunning looking knives, but still seems to be working things out.


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## JBroida (Aug 20, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I'm not a knife seller, which is why I mentioned "conjecture."
> 
> I know that when I sell something made by an artist that's priced at 2K, I take a standard 50% cut. If the artist sells directly to a collector, he/she is not allowed by contract to sell for less than 2K. That same artwork is priced at the same price USD, if sold by a different gallery overseas.
> 
> I assume it's the same with knives, where there's essentially a set price from different vendors. But, it's just a guess since I've never been to Japan.



It’s not like this... depends on the craftsmen and/or wholesaler


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

It's early on in the polling, with a slim majority willing to pay in the "$250–$450" range for a Jiro.

Though I'd wager that if there was a KKF group buy for Jiros priced at $650, there would by 50 people jumping on it.


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## labor of love (Aug 20, 2019)

theres a no handle Jiro for $660. out of stock ofcourse.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 20, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> It's early on in the polling, with a slim majority willing to pay in the "$250–$450" range for a Jiro.
> 
> Though I'd wager that if there was a KKF group buy for Jiros priced at $650, there would by 50 people jumping on it.


Not me. $450 for a Wa handle 240 (Western is too heavy) would be my limit as an early adopter.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

JBroida said:


> It’s not like this... depends on the craftsmen and/or wholesaler



Good to know. As I mentioned, I'm not knowledgeable on how knife retail works, still a mystery to me.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

labor of love said:


> theres a no handle Jiro for $660. out of stock ofcourse.



$650 can get you a very good custom from a Western maker—with a cool handle.


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## labor of love (Aug 20, 2019)

$650 also cannot get you a Jiro with a cool handle


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## Carl Kotte (Aug 20, 2019)

I would give three quarters of a soul for a Jiro, not more. [emoji848]


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## Barmoley (Aug 20, 2019)

labor of love said:


> $650 also cannot get you a Jiro with a cool handle


So true. $650 buys a lot, some of which are proven, high quality knives by well known and respected makers. Again, more power to him or the retailer for being able to sell within seconds at these prices, I don't get it, but who cares. Looking forward for more reviews.


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## Gregmega (Aug 20, 2019)

parbaked said:


> It's not just the handle because his wa-handle knives cost the same as the western handle knives.
> I feel like the price includes a few layers mark-ups for Hitohira and downstream retailers.
> It would be nice to buy one when I'm in Japan for the same price that Hitohira wholesales it to overseas shops....



Had a convo with them, after they raised the prices of all their knives on the site -including the ones already sold- they said they’re having trouble competing with local partners as they ship world wide and take a hit. So there will be no ‘wholesale in Japan purchase price’ as they’re only selling through their official retailers abroad. FYI they raised the prices from 780 to 830, retroactively making it look like all the knives already sold into the market were sold at a higher price.


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## McMan (Aug 20, 2019)

What’s interesting to me is that Hitohira generally has good prices. Some of their TF in blue were charitably priced...

I see the Jiro as being marketed as an insta-classic. It may well be a wonderful knife; but only time will tell. Seems like a savvy move by Hitohira to price it high when so much of their other stuff is priced lower. In other words, since they don’t have a record of price-gouging across the board, the high price for Jiro might seem reasonable (?).


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## Matus (Aug 20, 2019)

Basically an unknown maker around here. The only things that catches the eye are (for a Japanese maker) unusual dimensions. The knife has a rough finish with a rudimentary kasumi finish (or so is my online impression). It may well become the next Kato, but is not there yet. And Kato was cheaper few years back. $300 - $400 for a WA handle option would sound about right (in EU after taxes). It does not make any higher value impression than a Mazaki. And I am yet to get convinced about the grind. I actually think that this kind of a too early hype may do disservice to him as a young maker if he looks to keep improving.

I may be all wrong (would not be for the time), but this is my current opinion based on the little information available so far


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## Midsummer (Aug 20, 2019)

It really depends upon when I think they are going to retire.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 20, 2019)

McMan said:


> In other words, since they don’t have a record of price-gouging across the board, the high price for Jiro might seem reasonable (?).


That reputation can quickly evaporate as it has for JNS


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## McMan (Aug 20, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> That reputation can quickly evaporate as it has for JNS



Yeah, that’s a good point. I hope it’s not the case anytime soon. There are a few I want to try from Hitohira.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> That reputation can quickly evaporate as it has for JNS



What do you mean by this?


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## DitmasPork (Aug 20, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Had a convo with them, after they raised the prices of all their knives on the site -including the ones already sold- they said they’re having trouble competing with local partners as they ship world wide and take a hit. So there will be no ‘wholesale in Japan purchase price’ as they’re only selling through their official retailers abroad. FYI they raised the prices from 780 to 830, retroactively making it look like all the knives already sold into the market were sold at a higher price.



Only vendors I'm aware of carrying Jiro are Hitohira, Tosho and Carbon Knife, are there other's?


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## Barclid (Aug 20, 2019)

You have to understand that Hitohira has no way of surviving as a business without taking a margin and his vendors have no way of surviving as a business without taking a margin. There are many ways you can divvy up margins between wholesale distributor, retailer and craftsmen. If you have a wholesaler who wanted, for instance, to get 50% GP on items that he's selling to his vendors and then the vendors wanted 50% GP then you have a total margin of 75% GP from the price requested by the craftsman. For a totally new craftsman with no established vendor pricing and solely managed by Hitohira, he can gather whatever margin he wants in whatever way he sees fit as long as the market will sustain it. So theoretically you can have a knife that Jiro is charging Hitohira $150 for being sold at $600 through successive lines of markup.

I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to insinuate that this is the case, just saying that this system inherently leads to higher prices since all parties want to make a profit for their business. Wholesale margin could be much lower and retail margin could be lower as well. Just something to think about.


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## McMan (Aug 20, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Only vendors I'm aware of carrying Jiro are Hitohira, Tosho and Carbon Knife, are there other's?


Tosho (and Ai and Om, Strata, and a few others) are Hitohira vendors (“partners”).


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## parbaked (Aug 20, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Only vendors I'm aware of carrying Jiro are Hitohira, Tosho and Carbon Knife, are there other's?


Lots...
https://hitohira-japan.com/pages/retailers


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## MarkC (Aug 21, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> What do you mean by this?


As a new member would like some more info on this as well.


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## Cyrilix (Aug 21, 2019)

I kind of have the same feeling as Barmoley. Had a look at the knife, not enough information out there, and what was out there didn't really resonate with me. $650 pretty much buys you anything except Shig, Kato, Hinoura River Jump, and Honyaki. It will buy most knives from Western makers too if you're patient enough. It will buy all variants of Konosuke Fujiyama except the limited edition or out of production ones, mostly anything coming out of Echizen, etc. When I think about makers that really get me interested, I think about the ones that are extremely passionate about their tools like Marko Tsourkan. Their demonstrated love for their craft is something I can see and something where I can say, that's worth a premium price ($400-1000).


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## panda (Aug 21, 2019)

it looks like a zakuri


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## bahamaroot (Aug 21, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> It's early on in the polling, with a slim majority willing to pay in the "$250–$450" range for a Jiro.
> 
> Though I'd wager that if there was a KKF group buy for Jiros priced at $650, there would by 50 people jumping on it.


Not me. I can't say I'd give $400 for one at this point.


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## lemeneid (Aug 21, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Not me. I can't say I'd give $400 for one at this point.


But but but... think of how much it will be worth in 5 years when the hype goes into overdrive


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## DitmasPork (Aug 21, 2019)

MarkC said:


> As a new member would like some more info on this as well.


I’ve always been happy with the knives and service from JNS.


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## captaincaed (Aug 21, 2019)

I think high prices equate with attention to detail in either performance or finish details. At least for me. e.g. I'm willing to accept TF warts for the steel and werewolf cutting feel.

Jiro doesn't seem like a high polish type girl. But it first have a very distinctive look, I admit. If people who buy it are happy with the purchase, that matter.


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## idemhj (Aug 21, 2019)

Being Danish, I’m only interested in buying Manhattan or Puerto Rico...


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## MarkC (Aug 21, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> I kind of have the same feeling as Barmoley. Had a look at the knife, not enough information out there, and what was out there didn't really resonate with me. $650 pretty much buys you anything except Shig, Kato, Hinoura River Jump, and Honyaki. It will buy most knives from Western makers too if you're patient enough. It will buy all variants of Konosuke Fujiyama except the limited edition or out of production ones, mostly anything coming out of Echizen, etc. When I think about makers that really get me interested, I think about the ones that are extremely passionate about their tools like Marko Tsourkan. Their demonstrated love for their craft is something I can see and something where I can say, that's worth a premium price ($400-1000).


Really thoughtful reply here.


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## Gregmega (Aug 21, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I think high prices equate with attention to detail in either performance or finish details. At least for me. e.g. I'm willing to accept TF warts for the steel and werewolf cutting feel.
> 
> Jiro doesn't seem like a high polish type girl. But it first have a very distinctive look, I admit. If people who buy it are happy with the purchase, that matter.



Well that’s the best sales pitch I’ve heard yet for TF, and I think I’ve heard them all- werewolf cutting feel- maybe it’s time to get a denka TFTFTFTFTF. @lemenaid


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## chinacats (Aug 21, 2019)

time to get a denka and hope you don't get one of the ****** ones that need a ton of thinning

...one more case of overpriced pos...or you can spend another hundred or so and have someone make it into something worth keeping (or put in the time and stone damage yourself)...tftftf


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 21, 2019)

chinacats said:


> time to get a denka and hope you don't get one of the ****** ones that need a ton of thinning
> 
> ...one more case of overpriced pos...or you can spend another hundred or so and have someone make it into something worth keeping (or put in the time and stone damage yourself)...tftftf


No chonkiness with the factory grind of my Denka. TFTFTFTF


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## chinacats (Aug 21, 2019)

oh yeah, you can get a good one or a pos and at that price range i don't understand rolling the dice and coming up w craps... then trying to unload it on bst...tftfpos......at least buy a Shig and have a decent idea what you'll get...btw, is that a factory grind or a return that they thinned and resold? i only ask because there is so much variation w these that there really is no telling...and pretty sure they don't just toss the returned blades...not that it matters

...as to jiro, I'm w panda...overpriced zakuri


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 21, 2019)

chinacats said:


> thinned and resold?


Nope. Personally selected by me remotely knowing complete specs (weight, edge length, height) and receiving multiple photos of the knife from Gaku at the TF shop in Tokyo. There really should be no reason to receive a chonky one if the right questions are asked, you're patient and know what you want. YMMV TFTFTF FTW


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## chinacats (Aug 21, 2019)

ymmv... others have followed the same process and wound up w chunky blades...and how do you know it wasn't a previously returned blade?


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 21, 2019)

chinacats said:


> ymmv... others have followed the same process and wound up w chunky blades...and how do you know it wasn't a previously returned blade?


Very few guarantees in this world. I had a long enough communication with Gaku over many months about this knife, a Mab Ku petty I ended up buying and knife-making in general to have confidence in this purchase. I lost count of the number of emails that were exchanged but well over 100 between me, Gaku, and TF himself.


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## panda (Aug 21, 2019)

jim, a maboroshi is worth it just for the steel alone..


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## chinacats (Aug 21, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Very few guarantees in this world. I had a long enough communication with Gaku over many months about this knife, a Mab Ku petty I ended up buying and knife-making in general to have confidence in this purchase. I lost count of the number of emails that were exchanged but well over 100 between me, Gaku, and TF himself.



for that effort, you deserve it...i just want to buy a damn knife... I've spent far less time in communication w custom makers and received exactly what i asked for...


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## chinacats (Aug 21, 2019)

panda said:


> jim, a maboroshi is worth it just for the steel alone..



damn you... once again I'd sold myself that I'd never buy one and you go and throw that out...****...


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## Nikabrik (Aug 21, 2019)

Well, Hitohira sells the wa-tanged blades (no handle) for $660, so that handle must be worth $170, right? ‍


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 21, 2019)

chinacats said:


> for that effort, you deserve it...i just want to buy a damn knife... I've spent far less time in communication w custom makers and received exactly what i asked for...


Those emails were not just to secure the perfect Denka/Maboroshi but because they are genuinely interested in sharing their knowledge. And I wanted to hear what they had to say.


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## Customfan (Aug 21, 2019)

240 Wa´s are around $700 with handle and shipping CONUS


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 21, 2019)

Customfan said:


> 240 Wa´s are around $700 with handle and shipping CONUS


Not sure where you're seeing that pricing but Hitohira has them listed for $830
https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-012?variant=29019727265845


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## Gjackson98 (Aug 21, 2019)

I will say probably around $250 - 400 for now. 
As a somewhat collector somewhat user, I see price tag on knives thru 4 categories:
1. How it cuts
2.How it looks 
3.is the maker famous 
4.is this knife rare(quantity/is it going to be discontinued) 

I have never tried it so I can't check box 1, hopefully someday I will. 
Box 2, checked 
Box 3, I think the maker is raising and it depends alot on 1 so I will put no for now. 
Box 4, I will say no, its not rare. 

In conclusion it only check box 2 for me right now, so if I have to quote it 250~400 will be it. (it might check alot more for others but I can only speak for myself)


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## Elliot (Aug 21, 2019)

Gjackson98 said:


> I will say probably around $250 - 400 for now.
> As a somewhat collector somewhat user, I see price tag on knives thru 4 categories:
> 1. How it cuts
> 2.How it looks
> ...



I wish I had a system. Would save me a TON of cash


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## Gjackson98 (Aug 21, 2019)

Elliot said:


> I wish I had a system. Would save me a TON of cash



Lol, I am an engineer, can’t help. 
You know what ppl say, the only difference between engineering and just messing around is we write stuff down


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## Barmoley (Aug 21, 2019)

Customfan said:


> 240 Wa´s are around $700 with handle and shipping CONUS


Even at $700 for an unknown, new maker without proven track record is insane. I think people on this forum, me included, lost all connection to reality when it comes to kitchen knives....


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## Customfan (Aug 21, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not sure where you're seeing that pricing but Hitohira has them listed for $830
> https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-012?variant=29019727265845



Ohhh..... I stand corrected.....


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## chinacats (Aug 21, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Even at $700 for an unknown, new maker without proven track record is insane. I think people on this forum, me included, lost all connection to reality when it comes to kitchen knives....



thank you for offering a simple dose of reality

cheers


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## valgard (Aug 21, 2019)

I can't see what the poll reads but for me probably half of what they sell for, which means I won't have one. Perception of value is entirely personal and can change, I have paid some ridiculous amount for some knives entirely on the desire to have one, nothing rational about it.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 21, 2019)

chinacats said:


> thank you for offering a simple dose of reality
> 
> cheers


I'm with you there


----------



## daveb (Aug 21, 2019)

Now if it was $800 marked down on FB to 89.95 I would be even more leery.


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## Gregmega (Aug 21, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not sure where you're seeing that pricing but Hitohira has them listed for $830
> https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-012?variant=29019727265845



They were all retroactively changed. So all the prices that they sold for are now the new higher price.


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## captaincaed (Aug 21, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> They were all retroactively changed. So all the prices that they sold for are now the new higher price.


That's good business


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 21, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> That's good business


Not unless you know they were priced 20% less last month.


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## captaincaed (Aug 21, 2019)

Tongue in cheek


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 21, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Tongue in cheek


----------



## Jville (Aug 21, 2019)

I'd pay what they are going for now.


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## panda (Aug 21, 2019)

if i were to collab with a knife maker and the end product was pretty much everything i look for in a knife, how much would yall be willing to pay for such a thing? $750?


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## Cyrilix (Aug 21, 2019)

panda said:


> if i were to collab with a knife maker and the end product was pretty much everything i look for in a knife, how much would yall be willing to pay for such a thing? $750?


You like a lot of belly and I don't, so probably not much.


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## panda (Aug 21, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> You like a lot of belly and I don't, so probably not much.


since when do i like a lot of belly? that's news to me.


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## Cyrilix (Aug 22, 2019)

panda said:


> since when do i like a lot of belly? that's news to me.



One of your recent posts said this:

"just know guys that marko profile is quite a bit more flat than regular ks, it's more of a mizuno and ks hybrid shape. i actually reprofiled mine as i like more of a curve like the regular ks."

I took that to mean you like belly.


----------



## Jville (Aug 22, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> One of your recent posts said this:
> 
> "just know guys that marko profile is quite a bit more flat than regular ks, it's more of a mizuno and ks hybrid shape. i actually reprofiled mine as i like more of a curve like the regular ks."
> 
> I took that to mean you like belly.



I wouldn't say that means alot of belly, just not super flat. It is somewhat subjective, but ks just have a gentle curve.


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## gman (Aug 22, 2019)

if it's truly a one man shop, and he is producing one knife a day to a very high standard, then $800 doesn't seem that crazy.

that being said, this particular knife isn't really to my tastes, and the quality remains to be seen...


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 22, 2019)

gman said:


> if it's truly a one man shop, and he is producing one knife a day to a very high standard, then $800 doesn't seem that crazy.
> 
> that being said, this particular knife isn't really to my tastes, and the quality remains to be seen...


From the pics I've seen I wouldn't put these in the 'very high standard" category. Mid range at best.


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## lemeneid (Aug 22, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Well that’s the best sales pitch I’ve heard yet for TF, and I think I’ve heard them all- werewolf cutting feel- maybe it’s time to get a denka TFTFTFTFTF. @lemenaid


I’m getting my Denka handpicked this time in the TF shop itself. I rolled the dice and got a pretty decent maboroshi, but my Denka petty needs a lot more work but it was cheap and worth a punt.

Going to ensure my Denka gyuto is 100% the way I want it from the get go.

TFTFTFTFTFTFTFTF


----------



## Gregmega (Aug 22, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> I’m getting my Denka handpicked this time in the TF shop itself. I rolled the dice and got a pretty decent maboroshi, but my Denka petty needs a lot more work but it was cheap and worth a punt.
> 
> Going to ensure my Denka gyuto is 100% the way I want it from the get go.
> 
> TFTFTFTFTFTFTFTF



Hook a brotha up. We’ll go live and get confetti and streamers.


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## chinacats (Aug 22, 2019)

does Jiro = Ginrei?


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## Barmoley (Aug 22, 2019)

Ginrei = ShiHan


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## Customfan (Aug 22, 2019)

If Jiro = Ginrei
And Ginrei = ShiHan
Then Jiro = ShiHan

;-) Not....


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## flying hippo (Aug 22, 2019)

Gjackson98 said:


> Lol, I am an engineer, can’t help.
> You know what ppl say, the only difference between engineering and just messing around is we write stuff down



I'm not sure it's all engineering. I'm an engineer and my system is:

"Oooo!!! Shiny!!"
<clicks BUY>


----------



## chinacats (Aug 22, 2019)

thanks...


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## Barmoley (Aug 22, 2019)

Customfan said:


> If Jiro = Ginrei
> And Ginrei = ShiHan
> Then Jiro = ShiHan
> 
> ;-)


Jiro ≠ Ginrei
Jiro ≠ ShiHan
Jiro = Jiro
Ginrei = ShiHan


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## chinacats (Aug 22, 2019)

these names aren't really helping people like me who don't keep up... are both of these made by the same American that apprenticed in Japan?

if I'm adding confusion i apologize but i think it's relevant to the discussion if they're one in the same. if wrong then I'd like for that to be clear as well


----------



## Elliot (Aug 22, 2019)

chinacats said:


> these names aren't really helping people like me who don't keep up... are both of these made by the same American that apprenticed in Japan?



Hahaha, no worries. 
ShiHan is a Western Maker in Arizona (I believe).
Jiro is a man in Japan.

Actually nothing in common, to my knowledge.


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## MrHiggins (Aug 22, 2019)

[QUOTE="Elliot, post: 633668, member: 37325"
ShiHan is a Western Maker in Arizona (I believe).[/QUOTE]

He's in Santa Fe, New Mexico.


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## Elliot (Aug 22, 2019)

MrHiggins said:


> [QUOTE="Elliot, post: 633668, member: 37325"
> ShiHan is a Western Maker in Arizona (I believe).



He's in Santa Fe, New Mexico.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Knew it was somewhere there.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 22, 2019)

Shi.han apprenticed mainly with Hiroshi Ashi while he was in Japan


----------



## Gjackson98 (Aug 22, 2019)

Ummm I thought everyone’s =; just saying


----------



## Barmoley (Aug 22, 2019)

chinacats said:


> these names aren't really helping people like me who don't keep up... are both of these made by the same American that apprenticed in Japan?
> 
> if I'm adding confusion i apologize but i think it's relevant to the discussion if they're one in the same. if wrong then I'd like for that to be clear as well


Ginrei is house name of Jon from JKI https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/ginrei for knives made by Shehan Prull http://www.shihanfineknives.com/about


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## Barmoley (Aug 22, 2019)

Gjackson98 said:


> Ummm I thought everyone’s =; just saying


In what universe? just asking


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## Gjackson98 (Aug 22, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> In what universe? just asking


Lol, In my thoughts and whoever lives in my i suppose.


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## Elliot (Aug 22, 2019)

I will settle this once and for all. They're really made by Toyama. . . like everything else.


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## Barmoley (Aug 22, 2019)

Elliot said:


> I will settle this once and for all. They're really made by Toyama. . . like everything else.



Now, this has to be true. Many likes.


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## panda (Aug 22, 2019)

chinacats said:


> these names aren't really helping people like me who don't keep up... are both of these made by the same American that apprenticed in Japan?
> 
> if I'm adding confusion i apologize but i think it's relevant to the discussion if they're one in the same. if wrong then I'd like for that to be clear as well


just from guessing (since i havent used one), but you probably would have really really liked the custom shihan that labor recently sold. jon tells me his heat treat of 52100 feels more like blue steel and that choil and profile look freaking gangster.


----------



## parbaked (Aug 22, 2019)

panda said:


> just from guessing (since i havent used one), but you probably would have really really liked the custom shihan that labor recently sold. jon tells me his heat treat of 52100 feels more like blue steel and that choil and profile look freaking gangster.



Josh at Bernal told me that Shihan's 52100 is his favorite 52100 to sharpen...


----------



## labor of love (Aug 22, 2019)

I like sharpening Marko, Kippington and shihan 52100 gyutos. But theyre all a little different. Probably would agree that shihan is my fave...that kippington was great too though.

Edit
They’re all really good


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## GorillaGrunt (Aug 23, 2019)

I heard Toyama is really Mazaki with a fake mustache and big glasses


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## Ltj1121 (Sep 4, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I like sharpening Marko, Kippington and shihan 52100 gyutos. But theyre all a little different. Probably would agree that shihan is my fave...that kippington was great too though.
> 
> Edit
> They’re all really good



Comet has some beautiful 52100 treatment


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## DitmasPork (Sep 4, 2019)

The majority of y’all who took the poll place the Jiro in the
*$250–$450 *price bracket.

Current price of a 240 Jiro gyuto is* $835*.

*Burning question is what are the expectations from a $835 gyuto?*

As Elliot mentioned (correct me if wrong), price perhaps reflects labor costs of a knife made by an individual craftsman. 

+ uniqueness, rarity, maker’s reputation IMO.

If performance were the only gauge, a suitable knife can be had for under $300.


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## Barmoley (Sep 4, 2019)

You can get a knife made by an individual craftsman for a lot less $400-$500. Is Jiro a famous maker that his reputation is worth this price? Rarity has no value by itself. Performance is clearly not the only gauge, but what specifically about these knives is commanding such high price? They look cool, they are made out of good materials, they seem to be well made, as in f&f.

The distributer was able to increase the price from $700 or so to $830 when they saw that there is demand for these. With the demand at the level it is they should increase the price more. The question remains what, besides a really cool look makes people that have no experience with this maker buy all he makes in seconds and pay the asked price?


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 4, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> You can get a knife made by an individual craftsman for a lot less $400-$500. Is Jiro a famous maker that his reputation is worth this price? Rarity has no value by itself. Performance is clearly not the only gauge, but what specifically about these knives is commanding such high price? They look cool, they are made out of good materials, they seem to be well made, as in f&f.
> 
> The distributer was able to increase the price from $700 or so to $830 when they saw that there is demand for these. With the demand at the level it is they should increase the price more. The question remains what, besides a really cool look makes people that have no experience with this maker buy all he makes in seconds and pay the asked price?



Agree with most of your comments.

Though I do feel that “rarity” does hold value to many collectors. Look at rare baseball cards, art, old Leicas, etc. If Kato came out with a one-off parang, I’m sure there would be takers—even from people who don’t need a parang.


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 4, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Agree with most of your comments.
> 
> Though I do feel that “rarity” does hold value to many collectors. Look at rare baseball cards, art, old Leicas, etc. If Kato came out with a one-off parang, I’m sure there would be takers—even from people who don’t need a parang.



Rarity does not have value on its own, unless your sole criteria for collecting is rarity, even then there has to be at least 2 of you. I gave this example before...If I make a knife it will be super rare, since it will be the only one ever made, but it will not command high value by anyone, because I am not known to make quality knives. Rarity has value once whatever it is that is rare is determined to have value. There are a bunch of knives by Kato on JNS some of them have been there for years, noone cares to pay the prices. Nevertheless, if a known and well respected maker makes a different type of knife, collectors might buy it, but that is not the same as a rare knife from an unknown maker.


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## Gjackson98 (Sep 4, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> The majority of y’all who took the poll place the Jiro in the
> *$250–$450 *price bracket.
> 
> Current price of a 240 Jiro gyuto is* $835*.
> ...



1. It needs to outperform most of the knives that fits into the same category with lower cost. In this case the category includes characteristic like Hand forged, not honyaki, carbon steel etc.
There will be a difference between users when it comes to performance, if the knife can win majority, I will say its worth it. 

2. Fit and finish needs to look like this person at least care, in this case its well above the requirement.

3. Justified cost/labor and hours. For example: if the maker is famous with a good name they have a higher pay/hr compare to a newbie who just got started. If it took maker A 100hrs to make this knife while other makers who can do the exact same thing only need 10hrs it won't make sense.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 4, 2019)

When people are paying $800+ for Chelsea Miller's work I've lost all faith in the market and its perceptions of value. I personally don't think the Jiro's are anything like a $835 proposition. F&F is mediocre at best when compared with some Western makers in same price range.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 4, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Agree with most of your comments.
> 
> Though I do feel that “rarity” does hold value to many collectors. Look at rare baseball cards, art, old Leicas, etc. If Kato came out with a one-off parang, I’m sure there would be takers—even from people who don’t need a parang.


Plenty of rare/one-off Kato kiridashi's and hunting knives that just sit and sit.


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## refcast (Sep 4, 2019)

As an aside, is the Shihan 52100 on the takagi wear resistant side of blue steel or the zakuri easy to sharpen side?


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 4, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> When people are paying $800+ for Chelsea Miller's work I've lost all faith in the market and its perceptions of value. I personally don't think the Jiro's are anything like a $835 proposition. F&F is mediocre at best when compared with some Western makers in same price range.



Dammit! You beat me to the punch—I was just about to post about Chelsea Miller knives!!! ...or Cut Brooklyn. Both of those makers have happy collectors and chefs using them, I can’t say they were duped or made bad purchases—just different tastes in kitchen knives than my own.

IMO there’s a stark difference between the ideal and reality of valuations.

TF is pricey, has F&F issues, but are very coveted by some ( @lemeneid ).


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## wind88 (Sep 4, 2019)

TF TF TF. Just got to look beyond the F&F issues.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 4, 2019)

wind88 said:


> TF TF TF. Just got to look beyond the F&F issues.


Or find examples that haven't been touched by the ugly stick. Find a good one with a Wa handle and I think they are undervalued, especially with Jiro's commanding current retail prices. Trick is to reject the dodgy examples. TFTFTF


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## milkbaby (Sep 4, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> The majority of y’all who took the poll place the Jiro in the
> *$250–$450 *price bracket.
> Current price of a 240 Jiro gyuto is* $835*.
> 
> ...





Barmoley said:


> You can get a knife made by an individual craftsman for a lot less $400-$500. Is Jiro a famous maker that his reputation is worth this price? Rarity has no value by itself. Performance is clearly not the only gauge, but what specifically about these knives is commanding such high price? They look cool, they are made out of good materials, they seem to be well made, as in f&f.
> 
> The distributer was able to increase the price from $700 or so to $830 when they saw that there is demand for these. With the demand at the level it is they should increase the price more. The question remains what, besides a really cool look makes people that have no experience with this maker buy all he makes in seconds and pay the asked price?



I don't remember if I voted on the poll, probably not. But there are good points raised here.

Personally, it doesn't seem totally outrageous for a Jiro gyuto to be $800+ in comparison to other knives made by a bladesmith or knifemaker that does 100% of the work themselves, especially if he is making the san mai clad steel himself instead of working with prelaminated steel. It seems reasonable for these to be priced similar to a Tansu, Catcheside, Prendergast, Schrumm/Halcyon Forge, or whoever else. That is just my personal view on the "reasonable-ness" of the retail pricing, which doesn't take into account any of the performance factors.

As to why they are selling out at these prices, it only takes four letters to spell H Y P E /shrug


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 4, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> I don't remember if I voted on the poll, probably not. But there are good points raised here.
> 
> Personally, it doesn't seem totally outrageous for a Jiro gyuto to be $800+ in comparison to other knives made by a bladesmith or knifemaker that does 100% of the work themselves, especially if he is making the san mai clad steel himself instead of working with prelaminated steel. It seems reasonable for these to be priced similar to a Tansu, Catcheside, Prendergast, Schrumm/Halcyon Forge, or whoever else. That is just my personal view on the "reasonable-ness" of the retail pricing, which doesn't take into account any of the performance factors.
> 
> As to why they are selling out at these prices, it only takes four letters to spell H Y P E /shrug



Don’t most Japanese makers work with pre-laminated blanks? I don’t know enough about their exact process.


----------



## milkbaby (Sep 4, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Don’t most Japanese makers work with pre-laminated blanks? I don’t know enough about their exact process.



I believe a lot do work with pre-laminated steel, but not all do. It is still requires skill to properly forge out prelaminated steel, but you save the time and hassle of welding up the cladding to the core yourself. Time you spend making san mai that could be spent forging out the blades could be a big time suck if you're a one person operation; so then if you're making the san mai yourself, you'd want to charge appropriately for this extra labor.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Sep 4, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> It is still requires skill to properly forge out prelaminated steel, but you save the time and hassle of welding up the cladding to the core yourself.


Especially SS cladding to reactive core


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 4, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> I don't remember if I voted on the poll, probably not. But there are good points raised here.
> 
> Personally, it doesn't seem totally outrageous for a Jiro gyuto to be $800+ in comparison to other knives made by a bladesmith or knifemaker that does 100% of the work themselves, especially if he is making the san mai clad steel himself instead of working with prelaminated steel. It seems reasonable for these to be priced similar to a Tansu, Catcheside, Prendergast, Schrumm/Halcyon Forge, or whoever else. That is just my personal view on the "reasonable-ness" of the retail pricing, which doesn't take into account any of the performance factors.



I would agree except that he is at least 50%-60% more expensive than some of these guys that are very well know for making high quality knives and his knives would have to seriously prove themselves to be in the same group as any of these well known makers.

That really is the crux of my question. Given the alternatives, what makes people buy Jiro knives for the price that they are.


----------



## Jon-cal (Sep 4, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I would agree except that he is at least 50%-60% more expensive than some of these guys that are very well know for making high quality knives and his knives would have to seriously prove themselves to be in the same group as any of these well known makers.
> 
> That really is the crux of my question. Given the alternatives, what makes people buy Jiro knives for the price that they are.



FOMO?


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Sep 4, 2019)

Jon-cal said:


> FOMO?


About sums it up. Resale values are also up there so little risk to get one in your hands.


----------



## labor of love (Sep 4, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> The majority of y’all who took the poll place the Jiro in the
> *$250–$450 *price bracket.
> 
> Current price of a 240 Jiro gyuto is* $835*.
> ...


I wouldve voted $1k in the poll if there was an option


----------



## Gregmega (Sep 4, 2019)

I have a feeling a lot of these guys haven’t been getting the best handshake for all their hard work in a long time. Cost of living is up, raw materials are up, and it’s been a long time coming that products are gonna go up, imo. I’ve heard from several vendors that this is on the horizon. And last I was in Japan, that shiz is expensive. Gonna play devils advocate here for a minute, so hold tight. 

This guy works alone, makes cool ass knives in western style (more work), does his own San mai, and has a fairly low output (say compared to the terminator, Mazaki). He also is just in a different style all together than the 2-300$ counterparts you all have listed. Sure he’s ‘new’ to us. But I have a feeling he’s been at this for a while under a different flag. I’ll wait to pass judgment until it’s in my hands. But it sure looks like a 650$ knife to me (old prices, I know). 

I’ve always believed that it’s better to pay a craftsmen for their fingerprint than go with a production piece, but I’m sure one of you will spin that into ‘a fool and his money..’. I’m still going to support him. And if it turns up sideways, the secondary market hasn’t said no yet. 

Stand by until next Monday.


----------



## Keat (Sep 4, 2019)

I have one in order so you know how I vote, yet I can’t really articulate a great reason why I preordered it give the admittedly high price. Basically I love the look and don’t have a W1 knife. And some FOMO too. 

Related to his history, I read on an Instagram post from a vendor that he trained under Shigefusa... whatever that is worth.


----------



## Froztitanz (Sep 5, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I would agree except that he is at least 50%-60% more expensive than some of these guys that are very well know for making high quality knives and his knives would have to seriously prove themselves to be in the same group as any of these well known makers.
> 
> That really is the crux of my question. Given the alternatives, what makes people buy Jiro knives for the price that they are.


I think it's also worth noting that the dimensions of the spine and how they taper towards the tip on his knives are quite kato-esque.

From what I understand, about 5 or 6mm to 1mm. That being said, I have seen an example of a Jiro with some F&F issues. It may not be representative of his work and he may be improving, but I think we'll need to see more examples to have a better idea.


----------



## bryan03 (Sep 5, 2019)

the price at the reseller is not comparable to the direct price at the blacksmith. (so we can not judge the price of a knifemaker on the price in retail shop )

the dealers do what they want, if the knives are at this price, (and he has increased his prices) ,is that there are the customers in front of the door to wait to buy. (question of supply and demand, if the knives are not selling at the 1st price, he would have surely lowered the price. if the prices are increased it is surely that the demand is stronger than the offer . ( not for myself....)

but it is not representative of what the blacksmith asks.

dealers ask for knife maker discounts of 20 to 50%, and add margins and often a bonus for hype .

so for me the good question is how much really cost this knife directly from the marker. ( and I have in mind this price is really fair )


----------



## friz (Sep 5, 2019)

Guys, let's talk about Shigefusa and Kato knives and the reason why they are so expensive???? All about long waiting lists? <----- this is ridiculous.

Jiro. When I pick up my Jiro knife (because YES, I USE THE KNIFE) I feel it has a character, a signature, a soul, the blacksmith put into it. The effort he goes through doing all by himself, number every knife chiselled on the blade, aaaaaannd he is also writing you a note. By the way, these guys come also with Yo handle. What is the price for a Yo handle from Shigefusa or Kato??


----------



## Froztitanz (Sep 5, 2019)

friz said:


> Guys, let's talk about Shigefusa and Kato knives and the reason why they are so expensive???? All about long waiting lists? <----- this is ridiculous.
> 
> Jiro. When I pick up my Jiro knife (because YES, I USE THE KNIFE) I feel it has a character, a signature, a soul, the blacksmith put into it. The effort he goes through doing all by himself, number every knife chiselled on the blade, aaaaaannd he is also writing you a note. By the way, these guys come also with Yo handle. What is the price for a Yo handle from Shigefusa or Kato??


Would you be so kind as to show us pictures of your Jiro knife's spine, choil, kanji, etc?


----------



## friz (Sep 5, 2019)

Ther are plenty of pictures around mate. Tell me what are your concerns?


----------



## labor of love (Sep 5, 2019)

Froztitanz said:


> Would you be so kind as to show us pictures of your Jiro knife's spine, choil, kanji, etc?


Check this out

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...ns-of-western-handle-240mm-gyuto-part1.42603/

Looks pretty bad ass to me.


----------



## Froztitanz (Sep 5, 2019)

friz said:


> Ther are plenty of pictures around mate. Tell me what are your concerns?


I saw an example where the base of the spine is quite a bit thicker on 1 side the the blade isn't perpendicular to a flat surface (I won't state where I saw it). I think at that price point, it should be.

That being said, I was asking so that I could see other examples, as I get that these are handmade knives.


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 5, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I have a feeling a lot of these guys haven’t been getting the best handshake for all their hard work in a long time. Cost of living is up, raw materials are up, and it’s been a long time coming that products are gonna go up, imo. I’ve heard from several vendors that this is on the horizon. And last I was in Japan, that shiz is expensive. Gonna play devils advocate here for a minute, so hold tight.
> 
> This guy works alone, makes cool ass knives in western style (more work), does his own San mai, and has a fairly low output (say compared to the terminator, Mazaki). He also is just in a different style all together than the 2-300$ counterparts you all have listed. Sure he’s ‘new’ to us. But I have a feeling he’s been at this for a while under a different flag. I’ll wait to pass judgment until it’s in my hands. But it sure looks like a 650$ knife to me (old prices, I know).
> 
> ...



All polls are inherently flawed—answers influenced by questions and wording; only a small % bother taking polls; collective mood; and other variances.

Greg, I'm responding to your comment simply because you have a Jiro on order and have some knowledge of the maker and vendors, etc.

*On this poll there were 69 votes cast. It's my understanding that Jiro knives are extremely limited in number, are there more than 69 Jiro gyutos in circulation? Or are many of the opinions by people who have never used a Jiro?*

If I could do a poll within a poll it would be this.
*
I cast my vote in the Jiro Nakagawa gyuto poll based on:

A. Firsthand knowledge from using a Jiro Nakagawa gyuto.
B. Secondhand knowledge, opinion influenced by reading KKF reviews and comments by others on KKF.
C. Secondhand knowledge, reading information from vendor websites. 
D. Combination of B & C.
E. Wild guess or unconfirmed hypothesis.*

I bring this up because IMO performance, feel and characteristics of knives often transcends specifications on paper.

Admittedly, I've never held or seen a Jiro in person, voted to place it in the $250–$450 range. Think they're one of the coolest looking knives out there, but vote heavily influenced by my bank account.


----------



## Ivang (Sep 5, 2019)

*On this poll there were 69 votes cast. It's my understanding that Jiro knives are extremely limited in number, are there more than 69 Jiro gyutos in circulation? Or are many of the opinions by people who have never used a Jiro?*


I believe that is one of the points in this exercise. If a maker hasnt been veeted by the field, why are his knives so expensive? And why are people paying for them?

Shigefusas and katos are expensive now, but that wasnt always the case, they are also both storied and celebrated knife makers, with many years under their belts. their knives are coveted, and are made using very traditional methods. Their knives appreciated as time passed. They didnt show up on a random site selling for 700 dollars one day.


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## Barmoley (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh I think it is pretty clear that most that voted and commented have never seen or held a Jiro in real life. There is only one legitimate review with nice pics and good description that I've seen. There might be more information out there. So the discussion is really based on wild speculation, guesses and that review. I thought that was pretty clear
I am glad some are ordering and buying as we will hopefully get more information about these knives.

I think these knives are underpriced since demand is clearly higher than supply, but that doesn't change what the knife is worth to each individual that voted, given available information and that's what the poll results are.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> All polls are inherently flawed


Too right. Looks at the mess called Brexit


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> *On this poll there were 69 votes cast. It's my understanding that Jiro knives are extremely limited in number, are there more than 69 Jiro gyutos in circulation? Or are many of the opinions by people who have never used a Jiro?*


Based on the serialized numbering system and what I see from the Hitohira website who appear to be the conduit through which all Jiro's flow I think its safe to say there are <30, maybe <25 in the wild.

As for many products, knives have entered into the collector/speculator arena. Happened to whisky, wine, air-cooled Porsche and a multitude of other merchandise. Knives are a great commodity to collect. They don't degrade if cared for, easily shipped and have a growing fan base thanks to the internet. If a new product is equated to another highly prized collectable in this case Kato, it immediately attracts attention. People are going to acquire one just in case it does live up to the billing. So far though I think there isn't enough feedback from endusers to justify the hype and current inflated asking price.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 5, 2019)

Ivang said:


> *On this poll there were 69 votes cast. It's my understanding that Jiro knives are extremely limited in number, are there more than 69 Jiro gyutos in circulation? Or are many of the opinions by people who have never used a Jiro?*
> 
> 
> I believe that is one of the points in this exercise. If a maker hasnt been veeted by the field, why are his knives so expensive? And why are people paying for them?
> ...



IMO "why are his knives so expensive?" is highly subjective, since they're handmade and very limited in number. There's objective and subjective valuation—i.e. I'm able to judge whether a bottle of Kikkoman shoyu at the supermarket is overpriced by simple comparison to other vendors or like products—whereas handmade items are a different ballpark. Even though I can't afford them, I feel that Jiros are fairly priced for very unique, handcrafted knives.

Just trying to ascertain by what knowledge people voted on this poll.

Not everyone is or should be entitled to own or use a Jiro. Jiro is not an egalitarian knife maker—no one "needs" a Jiro, many "want" a Jiro. They are priced for collectors or cooks that can afford them and want something special—market supports current prices, so price is right. They are gorgeous IMO.

Though I've not held one, personally I like the look of Jiro Nakagawa knives more than Katos or Shigs—whether they are better or not, that's also subjective.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Based on the serialized numbering system and what I see from the Hitohira website who appear to be the conduit through which all Jiro's flow I think its safe to say there are <30, maybe <25 in the wild.
> 
> As for many products, knives have entered into the collector/speculator arena. Happened to whisky, wine, air-cooled Porsche and a multitude of other merchandise. Knives are a great commodity to collect. They don't degrade if cared for, easily shipped and have a growing fan base thanks to the internet. If a new product is equated to another highly prized collectable in this case Kato, it immediately attracts attention. People are going to acquire one just in case it does live up to the billing. So far though I think there isn't enough feedback from endusers to justify the hype and current inflated asking price.



Ahhh, don't you get me started on Brexit!!!!

Are prices for Jiro Nakagawa gyutos "inflated"—or just a reflection of what the craftsman is demanding for his knives? I like the ideal of craftsmen (and vendors) getting a fair profit for labor/expertise—I'll gladly pay triple for a handmade salami of quality pork over factory stuff. To me, the steak frites at Balthazar is not worth $41, but for many they are. Some view Chelsea Miller chef knives as over-priced at $800+, but for her happy collectors they are worth every penny. Surely there are many, many knives that are arguably of better value than Jiro Nakagawa knives, but for a collector that is obsessed with acquiring a Jiro, price might not be the most important factor. Compared to the cost and rarity of BNIB Katos, Jiro seems a bargain, some buyers perhaps hedging their bets that Jiro is the next Kato—pure conjecture on my part.

As I mentioned earlier, if the market supports the price of a product, then maker/vendor got it spot on.


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## Elliot (Sep 5, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Ahhh, don't you get me started on Brexit!!!!
> 
> Are prices for Jiro Nakagawa gyutos "inflated"—or just a reflection of what the craftsman is demanding for his knives? I like the ideal of craftsmen (and vendors) getting a fair profit for labor/expertise—I'll gladly pay triple for a handmade salami of quality pork over factory stuff. To me, the steak frites at Balthazar is not worth $41, but for many they are. Some view Chelsea Miller chef knives as over-priced at $800+, but for her happy collectors they are worth every penny. Surely there are many, many knives that are arguably of better value than Jiro Nakagawa knives, but for a collector that is obsessed with acquiring a Jiro, price might not be the most important factor. Compared to the cost and rarity of BNIB Katos, Jiro seems a bargain, some buyers perhaps hedging their bets that Jiro is the next Kato—pure conjecture on my part.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, if the market supports the price of a product, then maker/vendor got it spot on.



This is a key takeaway, and in reality, all that is really important. The demand, even with the recent price increase, is far exceeding the supply. Many, me included, are waiting, unconcerned with what it will cost, to acquire the one they want.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 5, 2019)

Valuation. Shown below are paintings in the gallery next door priced at 200k each. Absurd to some, though some collectors wouldn't flinch at the price.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

And I'm sure the gallery feels justified in asking that price because the artist is a known entity with a track record of sales to support that figure. If they had Damien Hurst's fingerprints on them there would be a queue around the block


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 5, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Valuation. Shown below are paintings in the gallery next door priced at 200k each. Absurd to some, though some collectors wouldn't flinch at the price.



The fact that some collectors wouldn’t find it absurd is neither here nor there with respect to whether it is absurd.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> And I'm sure the gallery feels justified in asking that price because the artist is a known entity with a track record of sales to support that figure. If they had Damien Hurst's fingerprints on them there would be a queue around the block



Art is considerably more fickle than knife sales. Every so often a complete unknown hits the art scene, a big collector or major institution buys and promotes it, then all of a sudden it's positioned as a bluechip artist. If the art really sucks, it won't survive the market, whims of collectors or sharp words of critics.

When Jiro came along recently, he was majorly marketed with a lot of confidence and backing from a good vendor. Good or not, I don't know since I've never held a Jiro, but they look like well made, hand crafted knives that're distinctive—they've certainly caught my attention.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

#'s 27-29 just sold out almost immediately at $835.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> #'s 27-29 just sold out almost immediately at $835.



Wow!


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

Guess there are plenty of buyers for knives in the 320-330g range. For me that's too heavy for a 240 gyuto


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## panda (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Guess there are plenty of buyers for knives in the 320-330g range. For me that's too heavy for a 240 gyuto


that is an absolute pig, i like mine right around 200g


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

panda said:


> that is an absolute pig, i like mine right around 200g


Me too although I can go a little higher depending on the balance point. These western Jiro's seem to have a lot of weight in the handle


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## Barmoley (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Me too although I can go a little higher depending on the balance point. These western Jiro's seem to have a lot of weight in the handle



I like 210-230 in general, but depends on the balance a lot.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 5, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I like 210-230 in general, but depends on the balance a lot.



I should get a scale—all I have is a postage scale that's off by a pound or two, give or take.


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## friz (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> #'s 27-29 just sold out almost immediately at $835.



they are all preordered. they show up in the website anyway.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

friz said:


> they are all preordered. they show up in the website anyway.


Seems like a bit of an odd way to do things, but at least it allows us to keep track of numbers in the wild.


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## labor of love (Sep 5, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I should get a scale—all I have is a postage scale that's off by a pound or two, give or take.


Ounce scales are great for drugs and knives haha. I think mine was only $15 off amazon. It’s lasted for many years.


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## friz (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Seems like a bit of an odd way to do things, but at least it allows us to keep track of numbers in the wild.


I know right?


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## Barmoley (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Seems like a bit of an odd way to do things, but at least it allows us to keep track of numbers in the wild.


This seems like a brilliant marketing campaign others should take notice. I think there are other distributors and makers that can capitalize on the current appetite for handmade kitchen knives. Please don't misunderstand my statements as a negative reflection on the knives, they might very well be worth it. The whole thing just reads as an introduction to "how to successfully court a niche market by the numbers" it seems to be successful too. From the look, to the materials used, to calligraphy and hints of studying under shig and Kato or loose associations with them being made. The numbering of each knife, raising prices retroactively, showing pre-ordered knives as being sold in seconds. I think weight will be the only issue, but only pros will notice this, so let's see what they say after some use, plus the WA versions won't have this particular issue and the price is pretty much the same. Again not trying to put them down, just amazed at how everything just nicely fits together.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> This seems like a brilliant marketing campaign others should take notice. I think there are other distributors and makers that can capitalize on the current appetite for handmade kitchen knives. Please don't misunderstand my statements as a negative reflection on the knives, they might very well be worth it. The whole thing just reads as an introduction to "how to successfully court a niche market by the numbers" it seems to be successful too. From the look, to the materials used, to calligraphy and hints of studying under shig and Kato or loose associations with them being made. The numbering of each knife, raising prices retroactively, showing pre-ordered knives as being sold in seconds. I think weight will be the only issue, but only pros will notice this, so let's see what they say after some use, plus the WA versions won't have this particular issue and the price is pretty much the same. Again not trying to put them down, just amazed at how everything just nicely fits together.


There are degree courses that teach this stuff


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## DitmasPork (Sep 5, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Ounce scales are great for drugs and knives haha. I think mine was only $15 off amazon. It’s lasted for many years.



Really want to get one for baking, as well as weighing knives.


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## Barmoley (Sep 5, 2019)

Yes, it is straight out of business school marketing class. This would be an excellent project.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 5, 2019)

friz said:


> they are all preordered. they show up in the website anyway.



Is that what the vendor told you?


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## friz (Sep 5, 2019)

That is what happened to mine yeah?


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## CiderBear (Sep 5, 2019)

CKC just posted #28 on their IG https://www.instagram.com/p/B2Cfz1PjxFT/?igshid=1999ruod867ku , and I don't think it's up on their website yet, so "sold out" from Hitohira might just mean that they shipped the knife to a vendor


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## Barmoley (Sep 5, 2019)

What does everyone think about the handle seeming to point down a little. This is usual on outdoor knives and some folders, which are mostly used in hammer/racket grip. Very comfortable in larger knives that are used for chopping. I haven't noticed it being common in kitchen knives that are mostly used in pinch grip. For kitchen knives the handle is usually either horizontal or points slightly up, which seems to be more comfortable when used on the board in a pinch grip. Or is it just the pictures and my eyes are playing tricks on me?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> What does everyone think about the handle seeming to point down a little. This is usual on outdoor knives and some folders, which are mostly used in hammer/racket grip. Very comfortable in larger knives that are used for chopping. I haven't noticed it being common in kitchen knives that are mostly used in pinch grip. For kitchen knives the handle is usually either horizontal or points slightly up, which seems to be more comfortable when used on the board in a pinch grip. Or is it just the pictures and my eyes are playing tricks on me?


Hmm, in which case has Kramer been doing at all wrong all these years?


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## Koakuma (Sep 5, 2019)

So, only way to order a Jiro right now is through pre-order? Any idea how long it takes to fulfill the pre-order? I don’t have funds for it just curious how the process is.


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## Barmoley (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Hmm, in which case has Kramer been doing at all wrong all these years?


Not saying it is wrong, just asking a question.


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## labor of love (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Hmm, in which case has Kramer been doing at all wrong all these years?


Ill say it. Kramer has been doing it wrong all these years. Haha

Seriously though, Kramer handles are actually more comfortable in hand than they appear visually. Wouldnt want to own one though.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

I was joking. I had a Xerxes Primus II for a short time and that has a curved handle, especially towards the heel. The most comfortable knife I've held bar none.


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## Barmoley (Sep 5, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Ill say it. Kramer has been doing it wrong all these years. Haha
> 
> Seriously though, Kramer handles are actually more comfortable in hand than they appear visually. Wouldnt want to own one though.


If you look at the 8" Kramer, you'll see that the handle over all points up if the edge is flat on the board, from pictures, don't have one anymore. The 10" has longer flat spot, so might be pointing down slightly or not, again from pictures so don't know, also never tried a 10" Kramer. The 8" was comfortable. Just curious if Jiro handle points down when edge is flat on the board, most gyutos I've tried and seen point slightly up or at most horizontal.


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## labor of love (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I was joking. I had a Xerxes Primus II for a short time and that has a curved handle, especially towards the heel. The most comfortable knife I've held bar none.


no doubt.


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## labor of love (Sep 5, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> If you look at the 8" Kramer, you'll see that the handle over all points up if the edge is flat on the board, from pictures, don't have one anymore. The 10" has longer flat spot, so might be pointing down slightly or not, again from pictures so don't know, also never tried a 10" Kramer. The 8" was comfortable. Just curious if Jiro handle points down when edge is flat on the board, most gyutos I've tried and seen point slightly up or at most horizontal.


Interesting, dont think Ive used a 10" Kramer. Just co workers 8" and santoku.


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## parbaked (Sep 5, 2019)

The fact that he's made only 30 of these style knives for Hitohira is interesting.
Does anyone know what style knives, if any, Jiro was forging before he started making these for Hitohira?


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## Barmoley (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I was joking. I had a Xerxes Primus II for a short time and that has a curved handle, especially towards the heel. The most comfortable knife I've held bar none.


I had one two, totally agree supremely comfortable, but if you take a close look you will see that the part of the handle that you contact in pinch grip points slightly up or horizontal when the edge is on the board. The rear of the handle curves down like you said, but that part doesn't really matter.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

My concern about the Jiro handle, besides the curvature, is how thin it appears. Its the girth of the Xerxes that also contributes to its comfort.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> When people are paying $800+ for Chelsea Miller's work I've lost all faith in the market and its perceptions of value.



This.


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## milkbaby (Sep 5, 2019)

The Kramer is so tall and has belly that it might make sense for the handle to point a little downward.


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## Elliot (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> My concern about the Jiro handle, besides the curvature, is how thin it appears. Its the girth of the Xerxes that also contributes to its comfort.



FWIW, Tanaka Ironwood is rather thin for a Western and I think it’s quite comfortable.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

Elliot said:


> FWIW, Tanaka Ironwood is rather thin for a Western and I think it’s quite comfortable.


Is it as heavy though?


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## wind88 (Sep 5, 2019)

I have a Jiro yo handle 240. It’s on the thinner side but very comfortable to hold. Despite being 300g, the balance is excellent right at the pinch point


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## Elliot (Sep 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Is it as heavy though?



Fair point. Haven’t held a Jiro, but my 270 Ironwood isn’t heavy at all. Haven’t weighed it, but I’d guess 200-220g tops, even with that Ironwood.


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## labor of love (Sep 5, 2019)

Elliot said:


> Fair point. Haven’t held a Jiro, but my 270 Ironwood isn’t heavy at all. Haven’t weighed it, but I’d guess 200-220g tops, even with that Ironwood.


no way! its gotta weigh more than that!


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## Elliot (Sep 5, 2019)

labor of love said:


> no way! its gotta weigh more than that!



I stand corrected. You got me curious. It’s so nimble I can’t believe I have Kato’s that weigh the same but shorter.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

wind88 said:


> I have a Jiro yo handle 240. It’s on the thinner side but very comfortable to hold. Despite being 300g, the balance is excellent right at the pinch point


Good to have some real world experiences. Judging solely from pics and supposition isn't necessarily telling the full story.


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## Ivang (Sep 5, 2019)

parbaked said:


> The fact that he's made only 30 of these style knives for Hitohira is interesting.
> Does anyone know what style knives, if any, Jiro was forging before he started making these for Hitohira?



I'd like to know that too.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 5, 2019)

Elliot said:


> I stand corrected. You got me curious. It’s so nimble I can’t believe I have Kato’s that weigh the same but shorter.


That looks chunkier than Jiro handle behind the pinch grip.


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## labor of love (Sep 5, 2019)

my shigehiro 270mm is 264 grams and honestly I consider it to be somewhat nimble. probably the narrowness of the blade.


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## Barmoley (Sep 5, 2019)

labor of love said:


> my shigehiro 270mm is 264 grams and honestly I consider it to be somewhat nimble. probably the narrowness of the blade.


Balance is very important too, when balanced right a knife feels light, but over time weight still takes a toll. On the other hand the weight can help too, so maybe it works out at the end.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 5, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> The rear of the handle curves down like you said, but that part doesn't really matter.
> View attachment 60513



Those curved heel segments are for typically using the tip (pointing down), 
The curve allows a much more neutral wrist position, without heel off the end.


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## Gregmega (Sep 6, 2019)

I keep reading ‘inflated’ and ‘hype’ knives from people who clearly don’t have one, nor seem interested in buying one. I’m gonna go ahead and call bullsh*t on those guys. 

Let me tell you what a hype knife is: a Kato. Anyone here who has purchased a Kato for more than 600$ (what I paid for my last one) has purchased an inflated knife (ie Kato ku, *** lol). I would never buy another kato again thanks to recent ‘hype’ prices (which is sad, cause they’re pretty dope), simply because a Kato is not worth more than 600$ to me. I’d rather buy a 200$ Maz and beat the sh*t out of it. I won’t even tell you what I paid for my shig western, cause the torches would get lit I’m sure. The industry threshold has gone f’n bananas in the last few years, let’s guess that if this came out 5 years ago, it would be priced south of 400. And we’d still be in shock. Hell, 5 years ago you couldn’t give away a Kato ku. They were like 3-400. And they still cut like sh*t btw.

I believe that a yo Jiro is most likely worth every penny, and simply because I believe in supporting craftsmen in what they do. He’s charging hito whatever they decided on, so let’s assume he’s not being taken advantage of, nor is it our business. Either way, as a one man show, he’s working hard at producing his vision and that’s worth my money. I owe my whole career to people who trusted me & believed my work. I’m gonna do the same for him. 

And for the record these knives are largely sold before they hit the websites, as basically every vendor has publicly started a list for preorder. They’re not available through the hito site, as dictated to me from hito via email.


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## friz (Sep 6, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I keep reading ‘inflated’ and ‘hype’ knives from people who clearly don’t have one, nor seem interested in buying one. I’m gonna go ahead and call bullsh*t on those guys.
> 
> Let me tell you what a hype knife is: a Kato. Anyone here who has purchased a Kato for more than 600$ (what I paid for my last one) has purchased an inflated knife (ie Kato ku, *** lol). I would never buy another kato again thanks to recent ‘hype’ prices (which is sad, cause they’re pretty dope), simply because a Kato is not worth more than 600$ to me. I’d rather buy a 200$ Maz and beat the sh*t out of it. I won’t even tell you what I paid for my shig western, cause the torches would get lit I’m sure. The industry threshold has gone f’n bananas in the last few years, let’s guess that if this came out 5 years ago, it would be priced south of 400. And we’d still be in shock. Hell, 5 years ago you couldn’t give away a Kato ku. They were like 3-400. And they still cut like sh*t btw.
> 
> ...



Agree on Katos and Shigs in my opinion too. Well said.


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## friz (Sep 6, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I keep reading ‘inflated’ and ‘hype’ knives from people who clearly don’t have one, nor seem interested in buying one. I’m gonna go ahead and call bullsh*t on those guys.
> 
> Let me tell you what a hype knife is: a Kato. Anyone here who has purchased a Kato for more than 600$ (what I paid for my last one) has purchased an inflated knife (ie Kato ku, *** lol). I would never buy another kato again thanks to recent ‘hype’ prices (which is sad, cause they’re pretty dope), simply because a Kato is not worth more than 600$ to me. I’d rather buy a 200$ Maz and beat the sh*t out of it. I won’t even tell you what I paid for my shig western, cause the torches would get lit I’m sure. The industry threshold has gone f’n bananas in the last few years, let’s guess that if this came out 5 years ago, it would be priced south of 400. And we’d still be in shock. Hell, 5 years ago you couldn’t give away a Kato ku. They were like 3-400. And they still cut like sh*t btw.
> 
> ...


Pardon my ignorance on this but you have to explain to me why Katos knives have gone up this high. Is there a reason? Shigs too


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## Gregmega (Sep 6, 2019)

friz said:


> Pardon my ignorance on this but you have to explain to me why Katos knives have gone up this high. Is there a reason? Shigs too



Just speculation- but my guess is a number of factors. 

For Kato: His production is extremely low, they’re difficult to acquire, this pushes up the secondary market, there’s always a rumor that he’s 10 minutes away from retiring, a few years ago a couple people realized that they could pump & dump them, so they took the market to the limit, and everyone followed, and then there’s the fact that they’re just badass knives. Badass knives that are rare just end up expensive I guess. 

For Shig: Production appears to be a bit higher, so I don’t see the same thing happening, though not for not trying as the pump & dump crew wrestled those prices up as well. It’s mostly the collectors market stuff, like the yo shigs and super rare single bevels that command the wild prices. But I’ve seen more yo shigs on the market for sale lately than I remember thinking were even in existence a few years ago. 

But I’d have to say to biggest reason for the seismic shift in the market is just the awareness and people taking advantage of the market. I’ve never gotten a shig or Kato from a site, never was fast enough. So the secondary market is where there prices are set these days.


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## friz (Sep 6, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Just speculation- but my guess is a number of factors.
> 
> For Kato: His production is extremely low, they’re difficult to acquire, this pushes up the secondary market, there’s always a rumor that he’s 10 minutes away from retiring, a few years ago a couple people realized that they could pump & dump them, so they took the market to limit, and everyone followed, and then there’s the fact that they’re just badass knives. Badass knives that are rare just end up expensive I guess.
> 
> ...



Thank you.


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## bahamaroot (Sep 6, 2019)

Lets not forget that certain group where just the fact that it's priced very high for its market makes it desirable to them. That high price alone to them says things like "quality", "unique" and "collectable" etc. If the exact product was priced at $300 they would have little interest in it. It would be just another knife.


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## Cyrilix (Sep 6, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Lets not forget that certain group where just the fact that it's priced very high for its market makes it desirable to them. That high price alone to them says things like "quality", "unique" and "collectable" etc. If the exact product was priced at $300 they would have little interest in it. It would be just another knife.


There is definitely some validation going on. "If other people are buying at these prices, so should I."

On the other hand, someone brought up Mazaki. My readings have told me that Mazaki is very inconsistent in the work produced. That's always a red flag for me. Either there are QC issues / not enough time spent refining the knife, or the maker doesn't really know what they want to make. Neither is a good indicator for
me, and there is plenty of Mazaki hype. It's fine if the maker wants to try out different stuff, but you have to distinguish those with a new product line. Otherwise, it just looks sloppy.


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## bahamaroot (Sep 6, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> There is definitely some validation going on. "If other people are buying at these prices, so should I."
> 
> On the other hand, someone brought up Mazaki. My readings have told me that Mazaki is very inconsistent in the work produced. That's always a red flag for me. Either there are QC issues / not enough time spent refining the knife, or the maker doesn't really know what they want to make. Neither is a good indicator for
> me, and there is plenty of Mazaki hype. It's fine if the maker wants to try out different stuff, but you have to distinguish those with a new product line. Otherwise, it just looks sloppy.


Don't see the relevant comparison. Mazaki didn't debuted at $800 a pop and wasn't known as inconsistent until his product was on the market for awhile and variances were seen with each new lot. And even with the inconsistencies his knives still performed well. Jiro hasn't build a rep for consistency yet though it's not likely he will be another Mazaki.


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## Elliot (Sep 6, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I keep reading ‘inflated’ and ‘hype’ knives from people who clearly don’t have one, nor seem interested in buying one. I’m gonna go ahead and call bullsh*t on those guys.
> 
> Let me tell you what a hype knife is: a Kato. Anyone here who has purchased a Kato for more than 600$ (what I paid for my last one) has purchased an inflated knife (ie Kato ku, *** lol). I would never buy another kato again thanks to recent ‘hype’ prices (which is sad, cause they’re pretty dope), simply because a Kato is not worth more than 600$ to me. I’d rather buy a 200$ Maz and beat the sh*t out of it. I won’t even tell you what I paid for my shig western, cause the torches would get lit I’m sure. The industry threshold has gone f’n bananas in the last few years, let’s guess that if this came out 5 years ago, it would be priced south of 400. And we’d still be in shock. Hell, 5 years ago you couldn’t give away a Kato ku. They were like 3-400. And they still cut like sh*t btw.
> 
> ...



This is why I love you. Paid way too much (opinion, of course) for the vast majority of my Kato’s and Shigs and have even sold a couple (at small losses because I sleep better at night). Don’t expect to be buying any more of either in all likelihood. Few exceptions, I’m sure, but nowhere near “worth it” to me. 

Jiro... I’m on a list.


----------



## Matus (Sep 6, 2019)

I am genuinely curios why Jiro a $850 would be considered priced 'normal' and Kato not. The first maker ist more than a generation younger and is yet to prove himself (at least within the community around here - a place that most of us as a source of information to pre-judge future purchases). 

I could well understand that one would consider BOTH to be overpriced (whatever measure once would use to get to that judgement) though.


----------



## friz (Sep 6, 2019)

I am genuinely telling you Shigefusa and Kato knives have pushed the knives market prices up that high, that paying 1000USD for a knife isn't that horrendous anymore. So when you tell me Jiro knives are at 850USD I tell you it is normal. The blame is on us who first accepted price increase and got greedy.


----------



## bahamaroot (Sep 6, 2019)

friz said:


> I am genuinely telling you *Shigefusa and Kato knives have pushed the knives market prices up that high*, that paying 1000USD for a knife isn't that horrendous anymore. So when you tell me Jiro knives are at 850USD I tell you it is normal. *The blame is on us who first accepted price increase and got greedy.*


Entirely to simplistic. I think the shear explosion in the number of knife enthusiasts over the past decade had a whole lot more to do with it. Supply and demand, people will pay big bucks to not have to stand in line. Just look at all the knives at every vendor that are OOS more often than in stock.


----------



## friz (Sep 6, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Entirely to simplistic. I think the shear explosion in the number of knife enthusiasts over the past decade had a whole lot more to do with it. Supply and demand...



Okay, so you are okay in paying big money for a knife, if you like it? you are not bothered that 2 years ago the same knife was priced at 30%/40% lower?


----------



## bahamaroot (Sep 6, 2019)

2 years ago you could rarely find a Kato or Shig, they are easier to find now. And they weren't 30-40% cheaper 2 years ago, maybe 4-5 years ago. And it doesn't matter what I'm okay with paying, the market is ok with it and that's the reality.


----------



## friz (Sep 6, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> 2 years ago you could rarely find a Kato or Shig, they are easier to find now. And they weren't 30-40% cheaper 2 years ago, maybe 4-5 years ago. And it doesn't matter what I'm okay with paying, the market is ok with it and that's the reality.


Okay.


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 6, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Lets not forget that certain group where just the fact that it's priced very high for its market makes it desirable to them. That high price alone to them says things like "quality", "unique" and "collectable" etc. If the exact product was priced at $300 they would have little interest in it. It would be just another knife.



That’s a given—price acts as a filter, ensuring a degree of exclusivity, specialness, status, bling factor. Quite naff to have a collection composed of common, good value knives, gotta have a few gems even if paying over the odds for my objectives—it’s an expression of commitment to get the best.

Why do you think many people dine at four star restaurants? Sushi obsessed need not get the $400 omakase at Masa to get similar quality raw fish, but throngs wait months for a reservation; not everyone devouring Daniel Humm’s sublime dishes are gastronomes; not every owner of a Kato can really appreciate its advantages over other knives.

I bought my Leica M6 years ago for three reasons—I obsessively desired one; they’re awesome cameras; I could afford it. It’s also a satisfying feeling acquiring an object of desire that not everyone had the financial ability to buy.

With my Kato WH and Shig yanagi I lucked out—paying $550 and $600 when new, major splurge for me, special knives in my humble collection, happy that they’ve appreciated in value considerably more than my Misono UX10. If available and accessible I’d buy a Jiro if I had the money. It’s currently a small club of Jiro owners, I’m interested in joining that club.


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 6, 2019)

Matus said:


> I am genuinely curios why Jiro a $850 would be considered priced 'normal' and Kato not. The first maker ist more than a generation younger and is yet to prove himself (at least within the community around here - a place that most of us as a source of information to pre-judge future purchases).
> 
> I could well understand that one would consider BOTH to be overpriced (whatever measure once would use to get to that judgement) though.



“Normal” simply because that’s what Jiro Nakagawa gyutos are priced at new. Simple. Overpriced for those that can’t afford them, acceptably priced for those that can afford acquiring a Jiro. If they don’t sell, then the vendor has miscalculated the market and overpriced the product. For a well made, unique, handmade knife by a skilled craftsman, that will last many, many years if cared for, $835 is not an outrageous sum to pay. Quite new to market, accounting for part of its covetability.

I’m not of the belief that Jiro has “yet to prove himself”—this is not a Kung-fu movie, Jiro is not a lesser maker than Kato, just a different maker. Jiros are Jiros, will be in the hands of those that work hard on acquiring them, for whatever price they are. It’ll be interesting to see what the secondary market does with Jiros down the line.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Sep 6, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> It’ll be interesting to see what the secondary market does with Jiros down the line.


Supply and demand will be a major driving factor here. At the current rate of production, there is sufficient paucity that that fact alone will maintain the secondary market at or maybe slightly above MSRP.


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 6, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Supply and demand will be a major driving factor here. At the current rate of production, there is sufficient paucity that that fact alone will maintain the secondary market at or maybe slightly above MSRP.



Many collectors seem to have impulsiveness and obsessiveness hardwired into their DNA—not a bad thing. That said, if a seller put a BNIB 240 Jiro on BST for 1k, I’d bet it would sell. $150 over the odds to jump the queue is a small price to pay.


----------



## Gregmega (Sep 6, 2019)

I’ve seen a Kato ku get traded for a shig kitaegi western. Nothing will shock me now. 

I think it’s been a long time coming that prices more realistically represent the actual work being done. In 4 years everyone is gonna be angry they didn’t get one when they could, case in point- have a look at the old bst from 4-5 years ago on Kato or shig, and tell me you don’t shed a tear or 2.


----------



## Cyrilix (Sep 6, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I’ve seen a Kato ku get traded for a shig kitaegi western. Nothing will shock me now.
> 
> I think it’s been a long time coming that prices more realistically represent the actual work being done. In 4 years everyone is gonna be angry they didn’t get one when they could, case in point- have a look at the old bst from 4-5 years ago on Kato or shig, and tell me you don’t shed a tear or 2.



I'm not so sure about that, to be honest. Prices don't go up forever. If there is a demand, it's because people are recognizing the desire to collect these. It's very possible that people don't give a **** about kitchen knives in the coming years. It's also very possible that there are other price pressures moving the price back down. There is definitely an appreciation of handmade that is surging, but I don't think that means "handmade at any cost".

Either way, I think there will still be a huge market for $200-$500 knives that are very very nice. Someone will be willing to make and sell these, even if that doesn't include Jiro.


----------



## labor of love (Sep 6, 2019)

Whatever happened to the idea that retail prices are set based off the labor involved in making the knife?
Pretty evident to me if you have a single guy doing everything by hand at a high level it’s a time consuming process and more labor intensive.
I read about sharpeners in Sakai that grind 30+ knives every day. Jiro instead might be making 30 knives a month.
Imagine walking into a restaurant and the executive chef does 100% of the cooking for service as opposed to having a staff(pantry, grill, fry etc etc)...
Your meal will cost much more right? An execs chefs time is much more expensive than a fry cook.


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 6, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> I'm not so sure about that, to be honest. Prices don't go up forever. If there is a demand, it's because people are recognizing the desire to collect these. It's very possible that people don't give a **** about kitchen knives in the coming years. It's also very possible that there are other price pressures moving the price back down. There is definitely an appreciation of handmade that is surging, but I don't think that means "handmade at any cost".
> 
> Either way, I think there will still be a huge market for $200-$500 knives that are very very nice. Someone will be willing to make and sell these, even if that doesn't include Jiro.



All indications that I've observed since buying my first J-knife in 2011/12 is that prices are going up in the luxury knife market (i.e. knives costing above $150), haven't seen any evidence that they will come down—this for a few reasons IMHO.

1. Raw materials have increased in price dramatically.
2. Talented knife makers are being recognized for their skill and finally getting paid what they deserve.
3. The pool of fine kitchen knife enthusiasts/collectors has increased. It's reached a level of connoisseurship where many on KKF and elsewhere are quite savvy—knowledgeable about the history of a maker, materiality, design, pricing, etc.
4. There is and always will be a pervasive one-upmanship with collecting—an insatiable appetite to acquire the best, despite the cost.
5. Now more than ever, it's quite easy to find a fine, handmade kitchen knife, it's just a click away.

High-end, pricey kitchen knives has had a very positive trickle-down effect on lower-end, budget, egalitarian knives. For $10 you can get a Pure Komanchi Chef knife—yes, factory made, garish color, but completely functional—I've used my mom's Mauve Pure Komanchi to slice up pounds of sashimi in Hawaii. 

Yes, I agree that the bulk of the high-end market is $200–$500, though a growing number of collectors will happily run in the $600–$1,000 playing field. 

Competition and creative inspiration will also probably push ambitious makers to craft knives using difficult, labor intensive processes, better materials, to chase making higher quality knives—of course expecting to be paid for the extra effort and expertise. The more I consider the rarity and work and skill going into a Jiro, the more the $835 seems within reason.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 6, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Whatever happened to the idea that retail prices are set based off the labor involved in making the knife?
> Pretty evident to me if you have a single guy doing everything by hand at a high level it’s a time consuming process and more labor intensive.
> I read about sharpeners in Sakai that grind 30+ knives every day. Jiro instead might be making 30 knives a month.
> Imagine walking into a restaurant and the executive chef does 100% of the cooking for service as opposed to having a staff(pantry, grill, fry etc etc)...
> Your meal will cost much more right? An execs chefs time is much more expensive than a fry cook.



At Frederic Fekkai Salon in NYC, a haircut by Frederic himself costs $750, by contrast, a haircut by one of the underlings start at $145. I get mine cut for $20 by an Uzbek cutter—akin to buying a MISEN chef knife.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 6, 2019)

labor of love said:


> An execs chefs time is much more expensive than a fry cook.



Time will tell, just like waiting for Michelin to come out...with definitive star rating..


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## inferno (Sep 6, 2019)

i had never even heard of Jiro Nakagawa before i saw this thread. so for me his knives are worth as much as any good quality knife in general, like 200 or so. if they are good quality that is.

eye of the beholder i guess...

Wouldn't pay a grand or 2 for a shig or 5-10 grand for kramer either. because for that price i can simply make the knives myself. buy all the grinders and HT ovens and everything and take a month off from work too.


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## Koakuma (Sep 6, 2019)

inferno said:


> i had never even heard of Jiro Nakagawa before i saw this thread. so for me his knives are worth as much as any good quality knife in general, like 200 or so. if they are good quality that is.
> 
> eye of the beholder i guess...
> 
> Wouldn't pay a grand or 2 for a shig or 5-10 grand for kramer either. because for that price i can simply make the knives myself. buy all the grinders and HT ovens and everything and take a month off from work too.


I don’t think a month worth knife making experience will get you a shig/Kato or even Kramer quality knives.


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## inferno (Sep 6, 2019)

its nice to not have to work.


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## flying hippo (Sep 6, 2019)

inferno said:


> Wouldn't pay a grand or 2 for a shig or 5-10 grand for kramer either. because for that price i can simply make the knives myself. buy all the grinders and HT ovens and everything and take a month off from work too.



I agree these knives are selling for inflated prices but not convinced making one is a reasonable alternative for most of us. I don't have the equipment or even space for the equipment, knowledge or skills to make a knife. I certainly can't take a month off of work to learn and make my own knife.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 6, 2019)

inferno said:


> i had never even heard of Jiro Nakagawa before i saw this thread. so for me his knives are worth as much as any good quality knife in general, like 200 or so. if they are good quality that is.
> 
> eye of the beholder i guess...
> 
> Wouldn't pay a grand or 2 for a shig or 5-10 grand for kramer either. because for that price i can simply make the knives myself. buy all the grinders and HT ovens and everything and take a month off from work too.



I hear you. 

I'd never ever heard of this Kato guy until reading a thread on KKF, liked what I read, had money in wallet, and immediately bought a 240 WH from Maxim.

Yes, I also wouldn't blow 2k on a Shig, I don't need/want one enough to pay that much—but respect those who have the passion and financial ability to drop whatever coin it takes to curate a great collection. 

With the 240 Jiro gyuto I just looked at on the Hitohira site, I've no problem with the $830 price tag, 'cause that's what they cost as set by maker/vendor. Outta my price range but surely within a lot of peoples comfort zone. With handmade knives—besides labor, materials—one is also paying for the creative vision of the artist/craftsman. IMO Jiro's got it spot-on aesthetically, very smart looking knife, don't know his cut but hopefully he's making a handsome profit for his distinctive knives.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 6, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> liked what I read (on KKF), had money in wallet, and immediately bought a 240 WH from Maxim.


Ah those Halcyon Days. I think I was a little late to that party back in 2015 and/or didn't have the confidence or knowledge to drop $400-600 on a knife. How things have changed.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 6, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Ah those Halcyon Days. I think I was a little late to that party back in 2015 and/or didn't have the confidence or knowledge to drop $400-600 on a knife. How things have changed.



Wished I had a time machine—first stop would've been Dec. 12, 1980 to buy Apple stock, second stop JNS to horde Katos and Shigs when first offered. [Joking, ...I'm not a greedy person]


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## labor of love (Sep 6, 2019)

Apple stock, amazon stock, Uber stock $5k could’ve turned into $5 million if we were at the right place at the right time.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 6, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Apple stock, amazon stock, Uber stock $5k could’ve turned into $5 million if we were at the right place at the right time.



If I bought 10 Katos at $600 a piece and flipped them for 1.2k each, I'd pull in a profit of $6,000. 

Would use the money to buy two Katos and a Shig from KKF BST. Circle of life.


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## labor of love (Sep 6, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> If I bought 10 Katos at $600 a piece and flipped them for 1.2k each, I'd pull in a profit of $6,000.
> 
> Would use the money to buy two Katos and a Shig from KKF BST. Circle of life.


Ditmas, youve got to starting thinking out of the box. 5K investment couldve yielded
5mil which you could use to literally kidnap and human traffic Kato and shig family to the states, then by way of imprisonment put them to work to make all the knives you want.

Just spit balling ideas here.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 6, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Ditmas, youve got to starting thinking out of the box. 5K investment couldve yielded
> 5mil which you could use to literally kidnap and human traffic Kato and shig family to the states, then by way of imprisonment put them to work to make all the knives you want.
> 
> Just spit balling ideas here.



[thumbs up emoji]


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## milkbaby (Sep 6, 2019)

H
Y
P
E

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Gregmega (Sep 6, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> H
> Y
> P
> E
> ...



E
S
T
U
P
I
T
\_(“•)-_/


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## HRC_64 (Sep 6, 2019)

Wait, who spent $3,500 on a dozen Mazakis? 



Gregmega said:


> E
> S
> T
> U
> ...


----------



## wind88 (Sep 6, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Wait, who spent $3,500 on a dozen Mazakis?


matteo and way more than a dozen


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## HRC_64 (Sep 6, 2019)

There is something to be said for the thrill of the chase...

Just like vegas, people are willing to pay to play the game...
win or lose the maths of the bet aren't always everything...

Sometimes we 'invest' in having fun


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## Barmoley (Sep 6, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> There is something to be said for the thrill of the chase...
> 
> Just like vegas, people are willing to pay to play the game...
> win or lose the maths of the bet aren't always everything...
> ...


Totally agree with this. If you want it and can afford it, buy it no other justification required.


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## Gregmega (Sep 6, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Wait, who spent $3,500 on a dozen Mazakis?



Don’t be angry that you don’t have the ability that I worked so very hard be able to do. And for the record it was only 2 grand.


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## milkbaby (Sep 6, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> E
> S
> T
> U
> ...



I have to admit that I LOLed 

Seriously tho, I doubt everybody who bought one of these Jiro has handled it in person. To me, it feels like a perfect example of hype: people think they look cool/interesting, they're selling out fast, so people want to get one, therefore driving up the price through greater demand than there is supply. As pointed out, how many people have actually tried one? At least Kato/Shig has had many years and many people using them to build up a reputation. Even Kramer worked for many years before his knives sold for 5 figure dollar amounts, not sure if he was selling his knives for $800 in less than a year since he sold his first knife...


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## Gregmega (Sep 6, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> I have to admit that I LOLed
> 
> Seriously tho, I doubt everybody who bought one of these Jiro has handled it in person. To me, it feels like a perfect example of hype: people think they look cool/interesting, they're selling out fast, so people want to get one, therefore driving up the price through greater demand than there is supply. As pointed out, how many people have actually tried one? At least Kato/Shig has had many years and many people using them to build up a reputation. Even Kramer worked for many years before his knives sold for 5 figure dollar amounts, not sure if he was selling his knives for $800 in less than a year since he sold his first knife...



[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] good).

And true. With supplies like these it’s going to be difficult to get the opportunity unless you’re a straight sniper.


----------



## YG420 (Sep 6, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> E
> S
> T
> U
> ...


LMAO!


----------



## HRC_64 (Sep 7, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Don’t be angry that you don’t have the ability...



oh gawd LOL...


----------



## Midsummer (Sep 7, 2019)

Reading this thread, I am reminded of this video.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 7, 2019)

ATTENTION JIRO OWNERS!

Please post images of your Jiros—I’d like to catch a glimpse of these rare and coveted beasts. Tired of looking at them, on vendor sites.


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## wind88 (Sep 7, 2019)

Here is a choil shot of my 240 western


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## DitmasPork (Sep 7, 2019)

wind88 said:


> Here is a choil shot of my 240 western
> View attachment 60602


Cheers! Is it a very asymmetrical grind, looks righty to my eyes? How do you like the knife so far?


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## wind88 (Sep 7, 2019)

I will be honest that I haven’t tried it yet. Not doing much cooking recently (or for the pass little while). It does indeed look very righty bias. The handling of the knife despite the weight is really good and it feels like a sword. Very stiff and solid feeling that is even more so than Kato.


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 7, 2019)

wind88 said:


> I will be honest that I haven’t tried it yet. Not doing much cooking recently (or for the pass little while). It does indeed look very righty bias. The handling of the knife despite the weight is really good and it feels like a sword. Very stiff and solid feeling that is even more so than Kato.



What’s the spine thickness above heel on your’s? Do you have a shot of your entire knife? Also, was this a pre-order? Apologies for so many questions.


----------



## Luke_G (Sep 7, 2019)

Midsummer said:


> Reading this thread, I am reminded of this video.




 That made my day


----------



## wind88 (Sep 7, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> What’s the spine thickness above heel on your’s? Do you have a shot of your entire knife? Also, was this a pre-order? Apologies for so many questions.


I have to measure it. Somewhere around 4.5mm IIRC. I have yet taken pictures of the knife myself as vendor pics look so much better than I can do. This was pre ordered months ago. I was the first person with the vendor that I preordered with.


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 7, 2019)

wind88 said:


> Here is a choil shot of my 240 western
> View attachment 60602


@labor of love is saved this one is for correctly handed people only.


----------



## inferno (Sep 7, 2019)

is jiro the new mazaki?


----------



## Gloom (Sep 7, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> @labor of love is saved this one is for correctly handed people only.



I should have mine in the next couple hours and will post a choil shot. Mine seems to be an almost perfectly symmetrical grind from the pictures I received but will confirm once it is in hand.


----------



## Gregmega (Sep 7, 2019)

Piz said:


> I should have mine in the next couple hours and will post a choil shot. Mine seems to be an almost perfectly symmetrical grind from the pictures I received but will confirm once it is in hand.



I’ve been told that one of mine (showing up today) is the most symmetrical of any he’s seen. So here’s to hoping.


----------



## labor of love (Sep 7, 2019)

Yeah, with hand made stuff there’s likely ALOT of variation. In the past I’ve been able to get assistance from people like Jon who show me the choil of the exact knife before purchasing so I can have more confidence. 
This isn’t always the case with everybody. And something like Jiro seems preordered or the inventory is gone before the opportunity to take a choil shot can even happen. I dunno. I’m not sweating it. I just have to be more careful. My recent Mizuno purchase was entirely my fault not the vendor’s. I took a swing and a miss.


----------



## labor of love (Sep 7, 2019)

I’m really anxious to see more Jiro pics. Regardless of if I’ll ever acquire one myself they’re quite sexy to look at.


----------



## bryan03 (Sep 7, 2019)

seen on Fb
Hitohira/ひとひら


----------



## Customfan (Sep 7, 2019)

inferno said:


> is jiro the new mazaki?



IMHO its not, for prod. numbers alone, that translates to attention to detail and way they are crafted (even though that might be a more romantic notion) still, that can still be seen on the blade finish and grind.

I own and have used both blades

Even though they are not too far apart in the way they behave on the board.

Regarding market behavior, that is anyones guess at this point.


----------



## inferno (Sep 7, 2019)

Customfan said:


> IMHO its not, for numbers alone, attentions to detail and way they are crafted (I own and have used both). Even though they are not far apart in the way they behave on the board.


i feel the hype train has left the station now though. does everyone have their tickets to the hype train? now everybody has to empty their bank accounts and get in on jiros. stock up on jiros guys!!

i like to hype strömberg.
https://www.strombergknives.com/gallery#/chefs/ and he's even a member here. which jiro is not.


----------



## Stratguy (Sep 7, 2019)

This just in...Jiro has announced a collaboration with Supreme. Only 50 are being made with Supreme embossed in large letters on the blade. Only $7,500.

(fake news)


----------



## inferno (Sep 7, 2019)

sign me up brother! i'll take an eu-pallet of them.


----------



## Customfan (Sep 7, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I’ve been told that one of mine (showing up today) is the most symmetrical of any he’s seen. So here’s to hoping.



Hope its a good one.... ;-)


----------



## Matus (Sep 7, 2019)

bryan03 said:


> seen on Fb
> Hitohira/ひとひら



They mentioned that they are going to make the tang on the western knives thicker to achieve balance they are after. I am yet to hear back what kind of balance they want.


----------



## Gloom (Sep 7, 2019)

Just got mine in and all I can say from what I see so far is WOW. The knife is fantastic. Can’t wait to put it to use and break it in. Hopefully the way it cuts is as impressive as it’s appearance and feel in hand! Even though it is a heavy knife (roughly 330 grams) the balance point is spot on and doesn’t feel as if it will be tiring to hold. 

Here is a choil shot for y’all who were asking. This one is definitely not an asymmetrical grind and is much thinner than some of the others I have seen.


----------



## Koakuma (Sep 7, 2019)

Piz said:


> Just got mine in and all I can say from what I see so far is WOW. The knife is fantastic. Can’t wait to put it to use and break it in. Hopefully the way it cuts is as impressive as it’s appearance and feel in hand! Even though it is a heavy knife (roughly 330 grams) the balance point is spot on and doesn’t feel as if it will be tiring to hold.
> 
> Here is a choil shot for y’all who were asking. This one is definitely not an asymmetrical grind and is much thinner than some of the others I have seen.
> 
> View attachment 60632


That is one sexy choil shot


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 7, 2019)

Just wondering what the aversion is to HYPE some appear to have? It's certainly not a negative thing to sense the enthusiasm towards a new knife maker doing something different.

If HYPE get's someone excited enough about a knife to buy it, it's good for the maker, good for the vendor, good for the knife community. Win win.


----------



## Gregmega (Sep 7, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Just wondering what the aversion is to HYPE some appear to have? It's certainly not a negative thing to sense the enthusiasm towards a new knife maker doing something different.
> 
> If HYPE get's someone excited enough about a knife to buy it, it's good for the maker, good for the vendor, good for the knife community. Win win.



Some people just want to watch the world burn.


----------



## Gregmega (Sep 7, 2019)

People also sh*t all over Mazaki when he started rolling out. And I’d bet half those ‘hype train’ commenters bought one. So tired of that comment I could puke.


----------



## HRC_64 (Sep 7, 2019)

Back on topic, did anyone notice these two choil shots show a high ('handmade') level of variation?


----------



## lemeneid (Sep 7, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Dammit! You beat me to the punch—I was just about to post about Chelsea Miller knives!!! ...or Cut Brooklyn. Both of those makers have happy collectors and chefs using them, I can’t say they were duped or made bad purchases—just different tastes in kitchen knives than my own.
> 
> IMO there’s a stark difference between the ideal and reality of valuations.
> 
> TF is pricey, has F&F issues, but are very coveted by some ( @lemeneid ).


My Denka is the ugliest knife I've seen by any measure, however I assure you it cuts like no other knife I've held. And I'm comparing this to Wats, Toyamas, Katos, Fujis, etc...

It is special because of its cutting power. Now if I had to buy an $830 Jiro or a $800 Denka for cutting food, I'd pick the Denka. If I had to buy a knife for purely its asthetics at $800, I'd get the Tsukasa ATS right now on BST  @Elliot


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## friz (Sep 7, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Back on topic, did anyone notice these two choil shots show a high ('handmade') level of variation?


extremely different choils


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## Barmoley (Sep 7, 2019)

Are both 240 mm gyutos? Also, choil is not always representative of the rest of the blade and overall grind. These are very different though, even for handmade knives.


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## Gregmega (Sep 7, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Back on topic, did anyone notice these two choil shots show a high ('handmade') level of variation?



That’s pretty extreme.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 7, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Back on topic, did anyone notice these two choil shots show a high ('handmade') level of variation?


That is extreme. Looks noticeably taller too. What are the specs? 330g is out of my comfort zone so if I decide to play ball and jump on that train to Hypeville, I'd opt for a Wa handle variant, especially if they plan to make the tang 'thicker'


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 7, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> My Denka is the ugliest knife I've seen by any measure, however I assure you it cuts like no other knife I've held. And I'm comparing this to Wats, Toyamas, Katos, Fujis, etc...
> 
> It is special because of its cutting power. Now if I had to buy an $830 Jiro or a $800 Denka for cutting food, I'd pick the Denka. If I had to buy a knife for purely its asthetics at $800, I'd get the Tsukasa ATS right now on BST  @Elliot


I'm totally with you there. My Denka is a cutting phenomenon. F&F leaves a lot to be desired. Functional but not refined. I do like the Ebony scales though. Its the blade thats the MVP.


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## friz (Sep 7, 2019)

Any idea what's the weight on a WA handle version for a Jiro 240?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 7, 2019)

friz said:


> Any idea what's the weight on a WA handle version for a Jiro 240?


Not stated on the website. The 210 that sold here without handle was 168g. So you could get a rough idea. I'm guessing around 240-260g


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## Customfan (Sep 7, 2019)

240 gr. (including handle)


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 7, 2019)

Customfan said:


> 240 gr. (including handle)


I was close


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## lemeneid (Sep 7, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not stated on the website. The 210 that sold here without handle was 168g. So you could get a rough idea. I'm guessing around 240-260g


That’s around Toyama/Wat category so pretty normal stuff.


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## labor of love (Sep 8, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> That’s around Toyama/Wat category so pretty normal stuff.


New Toyamabe’s are weighing in at 205-215grams some of the time. Baffling, half the reason I’d ever want one is because they’re heavy arse workhorses.


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## lemeneid (Sep 8, 2019)

labor of love said:


> New Toyamabe’s are weighing in at 205-215grams some of the time. Baffling, half the reason I’d ever want one is because they’re heavy area workhorses.


Wow didn’t know that. Me too, I always liked the weight of my Toyama precisely for the same reason.


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## bahamaroot (Sep 8, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Back on topic, did anyone notice these two choil shots show a high ('handmade') level of variation?


The very inconsistent grind is the first thing that popped out to me. Especially after Mazaki got brought into the conversation and dogged for his inconsistencies. I think the choil shots tell you a lot about the grind of a knife. If it didn't then why do so many people demand to see them?


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## Xenif (Sep 8, 2019)

The latest in Jiro evolution, the super thick handle to balance the heavy blade

https://www.instagram.com/p/B2G_V6WFpGe/?igshid=15djhpkuv54ox


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## Gregmega (Sep 8, 2019)

Look pretty good to me.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 8, 2019)

I'd be curious to know what the blade thickness is at the heel of both Greg's and Piz's 240's. Wonder if that is having any effect on the final grind.


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## Midsummer (Sep 8, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> View attachment 60697
> View attachment 60698
> View attachment 60699
> 
> ...



150 and 210?

Hope they are awesome for you!


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## Elliot (Sep 8, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> View attachment 60697
> View attachment 60698
> View attachment 60699
> 
> ...



Petty has some BBBBEEEEEEFFFFFFF.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 8, 2019)

Elliot said:


> Petty has some BBBBEEEEEEFFFFFFF.


Workelephant petty


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## Elliot (Sep 8, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Workelephant petty



Yeah, man. Reminds me of my 240 Kato Suji.


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## Barmoley (Sep 8, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> View attachment 60697
> View attachment 60698
> View attachment 60699
> 
> ...


The big one looks good. Please let us know how it works, especially compared to your Marko workhorse.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 9, 2019)

Any reviews?


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## Gregmega (Sep 9, 2019)

I can say that in the hand they’re super unique. The handle feels amazing. The tang and its thickness are just awesome. It’s not really like any other western that I’ve held before, which is a good thing. Pretty heavy at 285g, but the balance it right at the handle and choil junction. It may take some getting use to if you’re exclusively a pinch gripper. 

Haven’t had a chance to get it on the boards yet. But I plan to take it into the kitchen tomorrow. Then I’ll answer the OP’s original question. But for now- yeah- it’s worth it. It’s cool as hell. 

But I can also see that these are certainly not for everyone. If you’re used to light wa handles with blade forward weight ratios, it won’t work for you. This knife is just odd enough that it has a polarizing effect- but maybe that’s the point. I’m sold.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 9, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I can say that in the hand they’re super unique. The handle feels amazing. The tang and its thickness are just awesome. It’s not really like any other western that I’ve held before, which is a good thing. Pretty heavy at 285g, but the balance it right at the handle and choil junction. It may take some getting use to if you’re exclusively a pinch gripper.
> 
> Haven’t had a chance to get it on the boards yet. But I plan to take it into the kitchen tomorrow. Then I’ll answer the OP’s original question. But for now- yeah- it’s worth it. It’s cool as hell.
> 
> But I can also see that these are certainly not for everyone. If you’re used to light wa handles with blade forward weight ratios, it won’t work for you. This knife is just odd enough that it has a polarizing effect- but maybe that’s the point. I’m sold.


Very fair comments. From mere looks if this style of knife is in your wheelhouse then you won't be disappointed.


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## friz (Sep 9, 2019)

I must say petty is well balanced too and cuts well. Brunoise of garlic and strawberry done and I am happy.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 9, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I think high prices equate with attention to detail in either performance or finish details. At least for me. e.g. I'm willing to accept TF warts for the steel and werewolf cutting feel.
> 
> 
> Jiro doesn't seem like a high polish type girl. But it first have a very distinctive look, I admit. If people who buy it are happy with the purchase, that matter.



This thread got me curious and I took another look at the Morihei Hisamoto 240. We all know, even though the vendors won't confirm, that they are rebadged TF Maboroshi's with reactive cladding. On my knife buying journey I've come to appreciate patina and encourage it, so to have this option on a TF was a big selling point.

In many ways there are a lot of parallels with the Jiro. Iron clad W#1 steel, blade road finished on Jnats and that rustic Ku finish. The positives for me are the lighter weight and proven HT/grind. Plus the aesthetic matches the 210 Denka and my Mab Ku petty perfectly. Gaku confirmed the core steel and HT is the same as own brand Maboroshi. Its also been mentioned by others that the final polish on Jnats all but eliminates one of the biggest critiques of TF ie over grinds.

My knife was used for the Hitohira beauty shots and I got it just before an anticipated 40% price hike

https://hitohira-japan.com/products/aaa-020-fa240?variant=6946416099381


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## Gregmega (Sep 9, 2019)

That’s funny you mention it, a friend has been twisting my arm to get a hisamoto. Especially now that I picked up the jiro. But I didn’t see the correlation until this last comment.


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## Gregmega (Sep 9, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Very fair comments. From mere looks if this style of knife is in your wheelhouse then you won't be disappointed.



I think that’s the thing- if this is your style, you’re gonna love it. If it’s not, it will just never make sense- even if it was 400 bucks. I think it’s roughly the same for the Tanaka ironwood- people just can’t understand the love for those beautiful creatures at their respective prices. But once you’ve owned one- there’s just no comparison. As HST said- “too strange to live, too strong to die..”


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## panda (Sep 10, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I think that’s the thing- if this is your style, you’re gonna love it. If it’s not, it will just never make sense- even if it was 400 bucks. I think it’s roughly the same for the Tanaka ironwood- people just can’t understand the love for those beautiful creatures at their respective prices. But once you’ve owned one- there’s just no comparison. As HST said- “too strange to live, too strong to die..”


i'm one of those are dumbfounded by why people love that one. a modified tanaka ginsanko 270 on the other hand was one badass knife.


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## Matus (Sep 10, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> ... Pretty heavy at 285g, but the balance it right at the handle and choil junction. ...



Am I reading this right that they have put the center of mass behind the heel meaning that the knife - when hold in pinch grip in 2 fingers - is basically butt-heavy and the tip starts to lift up?


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## friz (Sep 10, 2019)

petty balance point is at the handle


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## Matus (Sep 10, 2019)

With a petty that has a full tang handle that is not really avoidable and not quite as relevant in use. With a 240 gyuto that kind of balance would remind of Wusthof.


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## Sharpchef (Sep 10, 2019)

To be honest, this design, geometry, profile reminds me a lot of our german KMS forum knife....Designed by members and made by Jürgen Schanz...
And it was of course a little inspired by Kato... 























Greets Sebastian.


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## Gregmega (Sep 10, 2019)

Matus said:


> With a petty that has a full tang handle that is not really avoidable and not quite as relevant in use. With a 240 gyuto that kind of balance would remind of Wusthof.



Your guess would be approximately correct. As stated earlier, if you only pinch grip, it will be an odd knife for you. But this tends to be the case for most full tang westerns... I’ve had/used so many knives over the years and still swap on a daily basis, that I don’t mind changing my methods daily- though sometimes it takes a minute to get comfortable. However I haven’t had a day in the kitchen with it. But I will give details when I do.


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## Ivang (Sep 10, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Your guess would be approximately correct. As stated earlier, if you only pinch grip, it will be an odd knife for you. But this tends to be the case for most full tang westerns... I’ve had/used so many knives over the years and still swap on a daily basis, that I don’t mind changing my methods daily- though sometimes it takes a minute to get comfortable. However I haven’t had a day in the kitchen with it. But I will give details when I do.




I am very good at switching techniques to make the best of my different tools, but this one seems to be quite extreme. Not only is it crazy heavy, it looks like it is designed to make you do all the work. It seems to me that they to look great and might be great for home use, but not in a pro kitchen in which weight and balance pay a much more importat role.


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## Luke_G (Sep 13, 2019)

Just unboxed a roughly 225 wa-gyuto.
Looking really nice. 
Will give it a go in the kitchen over the weekend


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## suntravel (Sep 14, 2019)

The grinds juged by the coilshots are very inconsistent for my eye, some are full flat on both sides, others hollow on one side and convex on the other, but often more done for lefthand use 

regards

Uwe


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## suntravel (Sep 14, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> To be honest, this design, geometry, profile reminds me a lot of our german KMS forum knife....Designed by members and made by Jürgen Schanz...
> And it was of course a little inspired by Kato...



well but not the steel, i would prefer the 1.2562 with good HT for kitchen use, but not as easy to grind as most common steels 

regards

Uwe


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## Matus (Sep 14, 2019)

Uwe, I agree on the grinds looking inconsistent or uneven and I would add that several knives had a rather wild lamination line - and while some western buyers like that, it is not a sign of a quality work.

But if you want to get an easiest to grind 1.2562, than you need to sandwich it between 2 layers of soft steel first


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## suntravel (Sep 14, 2019)

Matus said:


> Uwe, I agree on the grinds looking inconsistent or uneven and I would add that several knives had a rather wild lamination line - and while some western buyers like that, it is not a sign of a quality work.
> 
> But if you want to get an easiest to grind 1.2562, than you need to sandwich it between 2 layers of soft steel first


 
Well San Mai ist easy to grind but even well done you can be lucky to get the same performance than mono steel, but for sure more reactivity if the soft steel ist not stainless 

regards

Uwe


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## DitmasPork (Sep 15, 2019)

I'm trying to get an idea of Jiro's output.

This IG post from August 19 is of Jiro blade #001.

On the Hitohira, they are up to blade #046.

So that's roughly 40 knives a month, give or take—maybe in the 'hood of 480 knives if my math is alright.

That seems a pretty good production rate for handmade?


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## HRC_64 (Sep 15, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> That seems a pretty good production rate for handmade?



He could have been making inventory for the past year and setting it aside.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 15, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I'm trying to get an idea of Jiro's output.
> 
> This IG post from August 19 is of Jiro blade #001.
> 
> ...


I read a report that Nick Anger puts out 100-300 knives per year. And this is someone who is purported to be taking it easy and not falling into the trap of 'production'. I think 40 knives per month is perfectly achievable for one artisan doing all stages of production. Another data point is Xerxes who fulfilled a 90 knife order of Primus II knives for Messerkontor in just over 2 months.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 15, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> He could have been making inventory for the past year and setting it aside.


Which is what Konosuke does


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## Customfan (Sep 15, 2019)

I don't know... 40 blades per month still sounds like a lot....

Considering he uses traditional methods


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## labor of love (Sep 15, 2019)

Customfan said:


> I don't know... 40 blades per month still sounds like a lot....
> 
> Considering he uses traditional methods


Depends...cranking out 20-30 gyutos/pettys might be much more efficiently done and easier than like 5 nakiris 5 gyutos 5 sujis 5 yanagibas 5 pettys.


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## CiderBear (Sep 15, 2019)

A vendor told me that Jiro produces about 20 knives a month


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## Customfan (Sep 15, 2019)

That sounds more reasonable


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## Customfan (Sep 15, 2019)




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## Customfan (Sep 15, 2019)

Between 10 and 20 blades per month.... almost entirely done by him.


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## kevin (Sep 15, 2019)

The website description shows the Date of Manufacture. #001 was made in June 2019


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## Omega (Sep 16, 2019)

Matus said:


> Uwe, I agree on the grinds looking inconsistent or uneven and I would add that several knives had a rather wild lamination line - and while some western buyers like that, it is not a sign of a quality work.....



I would say its not that cut and dried-
While an uneven or wild lamination line CAN be a lack of quality, it does not guarantee it. 

If a blacksmith is talented, he can make the lamination line whatever he wants. Tanaka does this, purposefully, on the Fujiyama. He actually specifically adjusts them both because he likes how it looks, and because he gets orders from companies requesting it. And I don't think any of his blades suffer for this. Similar to the HM Cloudy gyuto- that blacksmith adjusted his process specifically to create that affect, to no detriment in quality of the blade. 


But, again, you are right that it CAN mean a lack of skill or control.


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## Matus (Sep 16, 2019)

I agree - good smith has lamination line under control and can made it even or wild. But the only reasons we see knives like recent Fujyiamas with wild hamon is that they are made for western market where users prefer cool knife over a well made one. There is no advantage of exposing more hagane - it just makes thinning harder. But it looks cool with a quick-and-dirty high contrast bokashi-kasumi.

Jiro may be a very skilled and gifted maker, we just did not see a knife from him yet that would make that point. I personally think that Hithira does him a disservice for offering his knives at this greatly inflated prices. And selling knives with defects with a 10% discount and calling them a proof of craftsmanship instead of tossing them in a bucket is not making it any better.


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## Omega (Sep 16, 2019)

Matus said:


> I agree - good smith has lamination line under control and can made it even or wild. But the only reasons we see knives like recent Fujyiamas with wild hamon is that they are made for western market where users prefer cool knife over a well made one. There is no advantage of exposing more hagane - it just makes thinning harder. But it looks cool with a quick-and-dirty high contrast bokashi-kasumi.
> 
> Jiro may be a very skilled and gifted maker, we just did not see a knife from him yet that would make that point. I personally think that Hithira does him a disservice for offering his knives at this greatly inflated prices. And selling knives with defects with a 10% discount and calling them a proof of craftsmanship instead of tossing them in a bucket is not making it any better.




Ahh okay. Yes, I agree-
I wasn't sure when you said "...it is not a sign of quality work" if you meant, in general, all uneven lamination lines are because of lack of skill. So that's exclusively what I meant to comment on. 

And I feel you on Hitohira- I can understand wanting to have claim on a talented new maker. But it really opens him up to muuuch more scrutiny as it pertains to pricing.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 16, 2019)

Matus said:


> I agree - good smith has lamination line under control and can made it even or wild. But the only reasons we see knives like recent Fujyiamas with wild hamon is that they are made for western market where users prefer cool knife over a well made one. There is no advantage of exposing more hagane - it just makes thinning harder. But it looks cool with a quick-and-dirty high contrast bokashi-kasumi.
> 
> Jiro may be a very skilled and gifted maker, we just did not see a knife from him yet that would make that point. I personally think that Hithira does him a disservice for offering his knives at this greatly inflated prices. And selling knives with defects with a 10% discount and calling them a proof of craftsmanship instead of tossing them in a bucket is not making it any better.



*I'd have to strongly disagree with you on the notion that Jiro's knives are sold at "greatly inflated prices"*—the prices I assume you mean are from the primary market, i.e. $825 for a 240 gyuto at Hitohira. The prices are what they are for these fine handmade knives, please allow this talented knife maker earn his keep, get paid for his craft. What's apparent is that Jiro knives are not to everyones liking, nor are they in everyone's price-point comfort zone. Kudos to those that have landed one of these coveted knives.

I'm delighted that talented knife makers are being recognized for their talents, and in some in turn paid handsomely because of their exceptional skill and vision—as well as for the expertise of vendors bringing them to market. It's been a while since I've seen a maker come out and created so much excitement in the knife community—some blame hype and marketing, but lest not ignore the maker's talent. I'd love to have one, but out of my price range for now.

"Greatly inflated prices" might be appropriate for some of the Katos, Shigs and Fujiyamas on BST.


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## Matus (Sep 16, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> "Greatly inflated prices" would be appropriate for some of the Katos, Shigs and Fujiyamas on BST.



It s OK if we have different opinions on Jiro pricing. I understand the points you are making, just my conclusions are different.

But I would agree with the fact that the way after market prices on certain knives have been pushed up by collectors and opportunists is likely one of the main reasons why Hitohira has brought the Jiro knives with given design and pricing. They see the opportunity and simply act on it.


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## Barclid (Sep 16, 2019)

Matus said:


> It s OK if we have different opinions on Jiro pricing. I understand the points you are making, just my conclusions are different.
> 
> But I would agree with the fact that the way after market prices on certain knives have been pushed up by collectors and opportunists is likely one of the main reasons why Hitohira has brought the Jiro knives with given design and pricing. They see the opportunity and simply act on it.



I'm curious if you would publicly disparage pricing of ~$850 from a solo enterprise western maker doing everything in-house with more or less limited tools and time-intensive finishing work like Sen scraping. I'm sure I could name a few in that price range. Thoughts?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Barclid said:


> I'm curious if you would publicly disparage pricing of ~$850 from a solo enterprise western maker doing everything in-house with more or less limited tools and time-intensive finishing work like Sen scraping. I'm sure I could name a few in that price range. Thoughts?


Western makers commanding that figure have a well established reputation acquired over many years. There are plenty of others who charge considerably less for similar levels of detail, F&F and quality of materials, HT, steel etc. The issue for me is that Jiro has yet to prove his product is worthy of that market price point (I've only read one review of the knife being used in the kitchen), although I wouldn't be surprised if Hitohira are taking a major cut and testing the market with their pricing strategy to increase their profit margin.

And Jiro is not the only example of a brand sold exclusively through Hitohira that has seen some major price increases recently. Its disingenuous of Hitohira to retroactively change the retail prices of knives that have previously sold.


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## Eloh (Sep 16, 2019)

Barclid said:


> I'm curious if you would publicly disparage pricing of ~$850 from a solo enterprise western maker doing everything in-house with more or less limited tools and time-intensive finishing work like Sen scraping. I'm sure I could name a few in that price range. Thoughts?




... do we even have an idea how time intensive these are?

to me personally i'm always happy if a craftsman can get a fair wage, so i'm definitely not mad at him. On the other hand you can get a Xerxes San Mai (eg) for less with virtually perfect fit and finish (and heat treatment).


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Eloh said:


> ... do we even have an idea how time intensive these are?
> 
> to me personally i'm always happy if a craftsman can get a fair wage, so i'm definitely not mad at him. On the other hand you can get a Xerxes San Mai (eg) for less with virtually perfect fit and finish (and heat treatment).


We have no idea who is driving these price increases. I doubt very much its the craftsman, especially one who is working hard to establish himself.


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## Barmoley (Sep 16, 2019)

Barclid said:


> I'm curious if you would publicly disparage pricing of ~$850 from a solo enterprise western maker doing everything in-house with more or less limited tools and time-intensive finishing work like Sen scraping. I'm sure I could name a few in that price range. Thoughts?



Why are you guys trying to make it a taboo to discuss Jiro pricing? Isn't it the point of this particular thread? Matus expressed his opinion, he is in no way preventing Jiro from making a living. Buy his knives or don't, but you definitely can and should publically discuss the pricing as well as other attributes of these or any other knives. Hopefully, now that more people got them in their hands we'll see more reviews. From what we've seen so far unless you really like Jiro look and feel the price is too high as compared to what you can get for same or less. Like was already mentioned, western makers that command Jiro prices have many years of proven high quality work under them. Many very good western makers charge significantly less for very high quality work. So even though Jiro is worth what he charges to some, in general at the moment, given the information we have we can say that his prices are inflated.


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## suntravel (Sep 16, 2019)

I have payed 420€ for an 300 Takamura Blazen, R2/Stainless Sanmai with perfect Fit and Finish and grind.

From this POV simple shirogami and rough Fit and Finish is not my cup of tea for bulk made knifes if they are more than double expensive 

I have also tested lots of knifes with shiro, TF, Carter, ect.. and the only one with decent edgeholding was from Watanabe.

But maybe Jiro has also good HT, have no expirience with his knifes .

Regards

Uwe


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## never mind (Sep 16, 2019)

Matus expressed one’s opinion, Barclid expressed one’s opinion, Barmoley expressed one’s opinion, etc. Isn't it the point of this particular thread discussing Jiro pricing to be okay, too high, and too low? Stylistically, people might be different. Some people here perhaps are debate-oriented to stipulate their mind, some others prefer following the social media influencers, etc. I appreciate the diverse viewpoints.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 16, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Why are you guys trying to make it a taboo to discuss Jiro pricing? Isn't it the point of this particular thread? Matus expressed his opinion, he is in no way preventing Jiro from making a living. Buy his knives or don't, but you definitely can and should publically discuss the pricing as well as other attributes of these or any other knives. Hopefully, now that more people got them in their hands we'll see more reviews. From what we've seen so far unless you really like Jiro look and feel the price is too high as compared to what you can get for same or less. Like was already mentioned, western makers that command Jiro prices have many years of proven high quality work under them. Many very good western makers charge significantly less for very high quality work. So even though Jiro is worth what he charges to some, in general at the moment, given the information we have we can say that his prices are inflated.


I feel it’s fine to discuss pricing of particular knives—which was the intent of the thread. What’s evident is the range of viewpoints. Jiro is fascinating in that he came flying outta the gates, successfully positioning himself as a coveted maker, commanding a certain price, aimed at a certain market—I’ve not read complaints of quality or price from current owners. Are they wrong or misguided? Any knife above say $300, is in luxury territory—people don’t need a Jiro (or Kato, or Shig, or Tansu), people want them. I’ll bet that for many Jiro owners they are worth every penny.

If I had the money, I’d probably buy one—price seems fair IMO. Uniqueness, creative vision has its price.


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## labor of love (Sep 16, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Western makers commanding that figure have a well established reputation acquired over many years. There are plenty of others who charge considerably less for similar levels of detail, F&F and quality of materials, HT, steel etc. The issue for me is that Jiro has yet to prove his product is worthy of that market price point (I've only read one review of the knife being used in the kitchen), although I wouldn't be surprised if Hitohira are taking a major cut and testing the market with their pricing strategy to increase their profit margin.
> 
> And Jiro is not the only example of a brand sold exclusively through Hitohira that has seen some major price increases recently. Its disingenuous of Hitohira to retroactively change the retail prices of knives that have previously sold.


I didn’t realize this until the other day but carbon has left the out of stock price the same as it was when sold. Jiro 240mm was at $700 at one point. Maybe this has already been mentioned but it’s news to me.
https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/jiro


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I didn’t realize this until the other day but carbon has left the out of stock price the same as it was when sold. Jiro 240mm was at $700 at one point. Maybe this has already been mentioned but it’s news to me.
> https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/jiro


Yes, its Hitohira who are being a little devious.


----------



## parbaked (Sep 16, 2019)

No one knows how much Jiro makes on each knife, or if Hitohira is sharing any of the price increase with Jiro.
For all we know Jiro is being exploited.
Those who think they are supporting a craftsman forget that the majority of their Jiro purchase price is going to Hitohira and the downstream retailers e.g. Carbon Knife Co, Strata etc.
Buying a Jiro doesn't support a craftsman any more than buying a Konosuke supports the craftsmen that make those knives.

I think the Jiro are cool looking knives, but there are a few reasons I won't buy one.

I don't like that Jiro is prohibited to sell to anyone but Hitohira. It's as if he's a Hitohara employee.
Retroactively changing the prices for past sold knives is fraudulent and turns me off the entire proposition.
The changes Jiro is making, based on initial feedback, tell me his initial product might not have been ready for primetime.
What's up with the new fatter tangs instead of tapering the tang??
When I buy a handmade knife, I rather develop a relationship with the craftsman instead of the dealer or retailer.
If I want to support a craftsman, I'll buy direct from TF, Heiji, Watanabe or any one of the excellent makes in the US, Europe or Australia.


----------



## labor of love (Sep 16, 2019)

I’m not going to make a judgment on how hitohira does things, just wanted to point out the older price.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Just read Jiro is taking preorders for a Kitaeji. It'll be interesting to see what price they land at.


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## parbaked (Sep 16, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I’m not going to make a judgment on how hitohira does things, just wanted to point out that it’s bit of info.



I'll make a judgement: retroactively changing the prices for previously sold items to mislead consumers and hide price increases is fraudulent. That's why Carbon and other reputable retailers don't do it...


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

parbaked said:


> No one knows how much Jiro makes on each knife, or if Hitohira is sharing any of the price increase to Jiro.
> For all we know Jiro is been exploited.
> Those who think they are supporting a craftsman forget that the majority of their Jiro purchase price is going to Hitohira and the downstream retailers e.g. Carbon Knife Co, Strata etc.
> Buying a Jiro doesn't support a craftsman any more than buying a Konosuke supports the craftsmen that make those knives.
> ...


Totally agree with all points. It reminds me of new musical artists who are being 'managed/controlled' by a promotor. I'm certainly not getting the notion Jiro is an independent artisan. For all we know Hitohira may have bought Jiro his workshop or invested heavily in return for sole rights to his product.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 16, 2019)

parbaked said:


> No one knows how much Jiro makes on each knife, or if Hitohira is sharing any of the price increase to Jiro.
> For all we know Jiro is been exploited.
> Those who think they are supporting a craftsman forget that the majority of their Jiro purchase price is going to Hitohira and the downstream retailers e.g. Carbon Knife Co, Strata etc.
> Buying a Jiro doesn't support a craftsman any more than buying a Konosuke supports the craftsmen that make those knives.
> ...



Whatever the Jiro/vendor split is, is none of our business, nor should it be, and shouldn’t be a deciding factor on whether or not to buy a new knife. I’ll often prefer going through a vendor over buying direct from a maker—unless buying direct is the only option.

Jiros are obviously not priced over what the market can support. All the Jiro buyers I know are savvy and knowledgeable collectors.


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## parbaked (Sep 16, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Whatever the Jiro/vendor split is, is none of our business, nor should it be.



Then don't post that you're "delighted" that he's being "paid handsomely" when you have no idea if he's being fairly compensated.



DitmasPork said:


> ... and shouldn’t be a deciding factor on whether or not to buy a new knife. s.



Not sure you should be determining what factors others use to make their purchase decisions. You might not care, but I do.
As an art dealer, you should know better...


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## Barmoley (Sep 16, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I feel it’s fine to discuss pricing of particular knives—which was the intent of the thread. What’s evident is the range of viewpoints. Jiro is fascinating in that he came flying outta the gates, successfully positioning himself as a coveted maker, commanding a certain price, aimed at a certain market—I’ve not read complaints of quality or price from current owners. Are they wrong or misguided? Any knife above say $300, is in luxury territory—people don’t need a Jiro (or Kato, or Shig, or Tansu), people want them. I’ll bet that for many Jiro owners they are worth every penny.
> 
> If I had the money, I’d probably buy one—price seems fair IMO. Uniqueness, creative vision has its price.


Current owners are not misguided or wrong, they bought these knives for all the reasons already discussed and to them the knife is not overpriced. At least not as long as they are happy with the purchase. I also haven't heard of current owners being unhappy. Uniqueness has a price, but only if that uniqueness is what you are looking for. I also agree that it is fascinating that a company can read a market so well to introduce a product from an unknown maker at a top end price and successfully sell it. Someone at hitohira understands higher end western kitchen knife buying market very well. Jiro western handle knives are unique in kitchen knife space because they are more like outdoor knives, they don't follow usual kitchen knife design. That might be good and innovative or there might be a reason why most kitchen knives are designed differently. Time will tell, we need more reviews. His WA handled knives are not that unique, yet they cost the same as far as I can tell and this is puzzling to me because it removes the major explanation for the price point.

Once again, if you feel the price is warranted, great. If someone asked me which knife they should spend $830 on, Jiro would not be it, just too many great, proven knives in this price range.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 16, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Current owners are not misguided or wrong, they bought these knives for all the reasons already discussed and to them the knife is not overpriced. At least not as long as they are happy with the purchase. I also haven't heard of current owners being unhappy. Uniqueness has a price, but only if that uniqueness is what you are looking for. I also agree that it is fascinating that a company can read a market so well to introduce a product from an unknown maker at a top end price and successfully sell it. Someone at hitohira understands higher end western kitchen knife buying market very well. Jiro western handle knives are unique in kitchen knife space because they are more like outdoor knives, they don't follow usual kitchen knife design. That might be good and innovative or there might be a reason why most kitchen knives are designed differently. Time will tell, we need more reviews. His WA handled knives are not that unique, yet they cost the same as far as I can tell and this is puzzling to me because it removes the major explanation for the price point.
> 
> Once again, if you feel the price is warranted, great. If someone asked me which knife they should spend $830 on, Jiro would not be it, just too many great, proven knives in this price range.



Well written comment. FWIW, I didn’t know much about this Kato fella, when I bought a workhorse from Maxim years ago—unaware of if he’d proved himself or just a new maker. Liked what I saw, looked quite unique, so I went for it.


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## CiderBear (Sep 16, 2019)

One thing about Hitohira though - I don't believe they ever sell Jiro directly, they just distribute to Tosho, Carbon, Ai&Om, etc. So I view the price that Hitohira lists on their website as MSRP, and what Tosho et al actually sell them at as "street price." Of course, that leaves each vendor some wiggle room to set their own street price. For Example, Tosho still keeps the 240 wa-gyuto at 890 CAD, which is around 670~680 USD.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> One thing about Hitohira though - I don't believe they ever sell Jiro directly, they just distribute to Tosho, Carbon, Ai&Om, etc. So I view the price that Hitohira lists on their website as MSRP, and what Tosho et al actually sell them at as "street price." Of course, that leaves each vendor some wiggle room to set their own street price. For Example, Tosho still keeps the 240 wa-gyuto at 890 CAD, which is around 670~680 USD.


Those are early serial numbers. Don't expect any future offerings to be at that 'old' price.


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## CiderBear (Sep 16, 2019)

@Corradobrit1 have you talked to Tosho about it? Because I have. And the price they expect to charge for the next 240mm wa-gyuto is 890 CAD.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Corradobrit1 have you talked to Tosho about it? Because I have. And the price they expect to charge for the next 240mm wa-gyuto is 890 CAD.


I guess we'll see when they land on the Tosho website


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## friz (Sep 17, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Well written comment. FWIW, I didn’t know much about this Kato fella, when I bought a workhorse from Maxim years ago—unaware of if he’d proved himself or just a new maker. Liked what I saw, looked quite unique, so I went for it.


I am with you here, and I would like to add that people do not pay crazy money for Kato for the cutting ability.


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## daddy yo yo (Sep 17, 2019)

I'd say definitely not more than $250–$450. But I couldn't care less...


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## Froztitanz (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> I agree - good smith has lamination line under control and can made it even or wild. But the only reasons we see knives like recent Fujyiamas with wild hamon is that they are made for western market where users prefer cool knife over a well made one. There is no advantage of exposing more hagane - it just makes thinning harder. But it looks cool with a quick-and-dirty high contrast bokashi-kasumi.
> 
> Jiro may be a very skilled and gifted maker, we just did not see a knife from him yet that would make that point. I personally think that Hithira does him a disservice for offering his knives at this greatly inflated prices. And selling knives with defects with a 10% discount and calling them a proof of craftsmanship instead of tossing them in a bucket is not making it any better.



Absolutely solid point on the 10% discount provided. There were good and bad points brought up in that post, imo.



> *Hitohira's Instagram Post*
> When you producing kitchen knife, it is always fighting between performance, looks and durability. ⁠
> ⁠
> Including Jiro, many high-end blacksmiths are trying to keep temperature low as much as possible while welding, there is specific temperature they trying to hit and judging it by their eyes.⁠
> ...



As I'm not a blacksmith, I won't go into forge welding and the associated temperatures needed to do so. From what I understand, it could very well be just forge scale and not a defect, structural or otherwise.

However, at the price of $800+, people are expecting *BOTH *quality and aesthetics. Granted, that may not be Jiro's direct price, but when people are paying those prices, there are certain standards that are correspondingly associated with the price tag.

That particular example may not fully be representative of Jiro's overall work, but I don't believe that at that price tag, a knife should come with that unfinished look. If it were me, I'd simply sharpen it out and provide a more "finished" product.

That being said, I've still ordered one and I'd love to see for myself whether the knife lives up to the hype or not.


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## Eloh (Sep 17, 2019)

... when I read hitohiras post I can't help but think why doesn't a so called 'high end blacksmith' use half way modern equipment for the best possible result instead of eyeballing the temperature for less than optimal results


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## daddy yo yo (Sep 17, 2019)

Eloh said:


> ... when I read hitohiras post I can't help but think why doesn't a so called 'high end blacksmith' use half way modern equipment for the best possible result instead of eyeballing the temperature for less than optimal results


Probably simply because this is the traditional approach, and tradition and respect are highly valued in Japan. One always have to have the cultural background in mind!


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## Eloh (Sep 17, 2019)

Sure I understand that, but there are Japanese craftsmen who do use a more modern approach...


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## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

Eloh said:


> Sure I understand that, still...


Gust a side comment not directly related to Jiro: There are plenty of modern tools in many workshops of traditional craftsmen. Not every one of them is shown in Youtube videos. Again, I am not saying that Jiro uses different tools that what was shown publicly, but in general apart from guys like Kato, most makers do use modern tools of some sorts to either improve their productivity or quality of the final product.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

parbaked said:


> No one knows how much Jiro makes on each knife, or if Hitohira is sharing any of the price increase with Jiro.
> For all we know Jiro is being exploited.
> Those who think they are supporting a craftsman forget that the majority of their Jiro purchase price is going to Hitohira and the downstream retailers e.g. Carbon Knife Co, Strata etc.
> Buying a Jiro doesn't support a craftsman any more than buying a Konosuke supports the craftsmen that make those knives.
> ...



I respect your points, but just a few opinions regarding your point #1.

*"1. I don't like that Jiro is prohibited to sell to anyone but Hitohira. It's as if he's a Hitohara employee."*

• Jiro's exclusivity with Hitohira is not necessarily a bad thing, it can show commitment on both the part of maker and vendor, both ideally working in the other's best interest. A maker locked down into a contract can be a good thing. What would be bad, is if Jiro began selling his knives directly at a lower cost, thus under cutting his own vendor and their hard work marketing and positioning the knife as a pricey, coveted knife for collectors and cooks. Jiro is not a Hitohira employee, but is contracted (whether in writing or handshake I don't know) to them. A mutually beneficial relationship.

• Buying from a vendor gets the validation of the seller, putting their reputation and expertise behind the product.

• Best way to support the craftsman is to buy their knives, be it from a vendor or directly.

• If a knife collector of J-knives only acquired knives directly from makers, it would probably be a very limited collection—especially if they didn't speak Japanese.

• Many artists and craftsmen I know would much rather sell through a vendor than independently. It lets them focus on making knives—many don't want to deal with customers, send out packages or field the emails or phone calls from customers—which can be a major time suck from makers I've talked with. An understanding and respect of roles can be good—allowing people to do what they do best. For each sale a knife maker does independently it may involve multiple emails to close a sale, processing payment, packaging, shipping, possibly more emails if there's a problem, etc.


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## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

Here I must agree with Ditmas. On top what was said - one needs to realize that a maker like Jiro who is completely unknown has zero chance to succeed on the market because he has no usable sales channels, nobody knows him and trying to sell knives one by one on Instagram (check it out, not much to find there) is a road to nowhere is you need work in workshop and not sit at the screen and then dispatch all the knives by himself. Hitohira just picks up everything he makes and markets it at a price that he could only dream of. Plus they most likely arrange materials supply for him. So they add a lot of value.


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## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

I just leave this here ...


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## Foltest (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> I just leave this here ...
> 
> View attachment 61274



Not a single **** was given that day


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> I just leave this here ...
> 
> View attachment 61274



Is that a Jiro deba? Where's the image from?


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## CiderBear (Sep 17, 2019)

@DitmasPork not the exact same image but https://www.instagram.com/p/B2ZO83tDbcB/?igshid=17adeeqkep6at


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> I just leave this here ...
> 
> View attachment 61274


'nuff said


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

Is that a stress crack?



Foltest said:


> Not a single **** was given that day



Isn't there is a tradition (if we are talking traditions) to let forgings rest for a while before they are finalized into shape?. IIRC they did this to let the metal settle into its final "rough shape" before grinding and hammerting it dead-straight and marketing it for sale. 

Major, high end blacksmiths therefore would have basically like "wine cellars" of aging rough forgings that sit around for weeks or months doing nothing, while new production continues on OLD works in progress.

This is something that makes a mess of the idea "item 001" was made on XYZ (specific) date. The knives being "brought to market" are simply being "finished" on whatever schedule the pruducer is using for the LAST STEP in the process. Most makers are going to be making in some version of batch production and doing the various steps in stages (forging, shaping, handles/polishe/etc). 

Ther was talk earlier about konosuke, for example, because they ofter send updates when batches come out of blacksmith, and go to shaper, and go to handle/engraving/polish etc. Of course in Sakai these are often done by different people, the production logic seems relevant in terms of batch-production steps being more efficient this way. ie, you make 10 or 30 handles at one go, you do 10 or 30 JNAT finishes in one go, etc. This would allow for less costs of switching out time/gear and keeping a certain amount of focuse on the task at hand.

So whatever Jiro is doing, if he's following traditional methods, I would doubt he's making a "blade a day" in any literal sense...More likely his is pulling WIP from inventory stocks and finishing them on an agreed (pre-set) schedule with his contractual partners/distributors.


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## bryan03 (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Is that a stress crack?
> 
> 
> 
> .



welding issue.
( very hard to make that part clean )


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## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

I mean - I thought it was obvious from the style of the photo.

Directly from Hitohira webpage - the blade was the latest one, sold for $505. It appears they took it down. It is not there anymore - apparently they took it down. Whatever that says about their business practice.

EDIT: sorry, I was wrong, here it is
https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-045?variant=30116423041077


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> I mean - I thought it was obvious from the style of the photo.
> 
> Directly from Hitohira webpage - the blade was the latest one, sold for $505. It appears they took it down. It is not there anymore - apparently they took it down. Whatever that says about their business practice.



Yeah, not a perfect knife, but rustic knives aren't perfect. Wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if I had the money, and were into getting a Jiro.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> Directly from Hitohira webpage - the blade was the latest one, sold for $505. It appears they took it down. It is not there anymore - apparently they took it down. Whatever that says about their business practice.


Nope still there. And this was the price without a handle. Here's another pic. You can see a clearer version on the site
https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-045?variant=30116423041077


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Yeah, not a perfect knife, but rustic knives aren't perfect. Wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if I had the money, and were into getting a Jiro.


Sorry, don't agree. Thats a crack, not a wayward hammer blow


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Nope still there. And this was the price without a handle. Here's another pic. You can see a clearer version on the site
> https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-045?variant=30116423041077
> 
> View attachment 61276



Is that just the cladding that's cracked? Can't tell. If I were the maker, I'd reject that.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

bryan03 said:


> welding issue.
> ( very hard to make that part clean )



One problem with only making 20 knives a month...
you don't deliver all 20 pieces in perfect condition,
then what happens?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Is that just the cladding that's cracked? Can't tell.


Barmoley asked that question on the IG post so we will see. From the photos it appears to extend down the spine and an attempt was made to 'tidy' it up and probably the reason for the rather clumsy beveling on the left side


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## bryan03 (Sep 17, 2019)

it's the junction between the hagane / jigane


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Interesting. Barmoley's perfectly reasonable query was deleted. Tells me what I need to know.


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## Froztitanz (Sep 17, 2019)

Got a link to the post?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Froztitanz said:


> Got a link to the post?


https://www.instagram.com/p/B2ZO83tDbcB/


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Interesting. Barmoley's perfectly reasonable query was deleted. Tells me what I need to know.



Yes, reasonable comment by Barmoley, but it's their IG feed—I remove negative or comments from my own feed.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

Back to the original topic of this thread, I've read a lot of comments on why one would not spend $800+ on a Jiro—I'm very interested on hearing the reasons why people have bought Jiros, and how they've justified the cost that many here can't.


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## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Interesting. Barmoley's perfectly reasonable query was deleted. Tells me what I need to know.



If you post that kind of a comment - always make a printscreen. Makes for a great IG story.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Yes, reasonable comment by Barmoley, but it's their IG feed—I remove negative or comments from my own feed.


True but its important to let visitors to the site know their MO and that are unwilling to entertain probing and reasonable questions. I understand rude, inflammatory or unrelated questions should be deleted but not one that points out a manufacture defect, which it obviously is and is seeking clarity.


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## Barmoley (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Interesting. Barmoley's perfectly reasonable query was deleted. Tells me what I need to know.


Not just that I was blocked from viewing it. Rustic is one thing, defective is something else, we are talking $500+ without a handle. For everyone else who is still making excuses for these guys I don't know what else to say...


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> If you post that kind of a comment - always make a printscreen. Makes for a great IG story.


Primary source Barmoley can always contribute.

Edit. oops I see he has


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## Barmoley (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> If you post that kind of a comment - always make a printscreen. Makes for a great IG story.


Yeah, sorry first time for me to be treated this way. I didn't think I was rude.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Nope still there. And this was the price without a handle. Here's another pic. You can see a clearer version on the site
> https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-045?variant=30116423041077
> 
> View attachment 61276



Despite the flaw, I'd buy it. Gorgeous knife. #powerful #soul


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Despite the flaw, I'd buy it. Gorgeous knife. #powerful #soul


Obviously someone else did too. I just hope they realize they bought a blade with a crack


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2019)

@Barmoley can you paraphrase what you asked?


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Obviously someone else did too. I just hope they realize they bought a blade with a crack



I'm assuming that most people buying Jiros are pretty savvy.


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## suntravel (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Nope still there. And this was the price without a handle. Here's another pic. You can see a clearer version on the site
> https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-045?variant=30116423041077
> 
> View attachment 61276



Looks like an forgewelding issue, maybe will not touch the useability, but for an 505$ Blade a no go in my eyes , especially while forgewelding shiro is low end regarding skills 

Regards

Uwe


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I'm assuming that most people buying Jiros are pretty savvy.


If only that were true. Even the savvy ones might overlook that issue. And even if noticed some might think it was only superficial (Barmoley's IG question was aimed at clarifying this point). Photos can be quite deceptive at first glance, depending on lighting, angle and resolution.


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## Ivang (Sep 17, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I'm assuming that most people buying Jiros are pretty savvy.




Nothing I've seen so far leads me to believe that.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> If only that were true. Even the savvy ones might overlook that issue.



I'd bet they could flip it no problem, even with pointing out the flaw.


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## Barmoley (Sep 17, 2019)

labor of love said:


> @Barmoley can you paraphrase what you asked?


Is there a crack in the spine that goes all the way through core and cladding? Or something like that.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I'd bet they could flip it no problem, even with pointing out the flaw.


Only one way to test that theory


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## Barmoley (Sep 17, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Is there a crack in the spine that goes all the way through core and cladding? Or something like that.


A response I would expect would be something like, "No, this is a minor delamination between core and clading that doesn't effect structural integrity or function of the knife and is only cosmetic. Nonetheless, due to this flaw we sold this knife as second with a reduced price." Second statement optional ofcourse. Deleting the question, fine. Blocking me, I guess it is their IG. Tells me all I need to know....


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Is that just the cladding that's cracked? ...



Its a Deba, you're looking at the back/ura side, AFAIK its supposed to be 100% pure hagane.


----------



## Jon-cal (Sep 17, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> A response I would expect would be something like, "No, this is a minor delamination between core and clading that doesn't effect structural integrity or function of the knife and is only cosmetic. Nonetheless, due to this flaw we sold this knife as second with a reduced price." Second statement optional ofcourse. Deleting the question, fine. Blocking me, I guess it is their IG. Tells me all I need to know....



They blocked you?! Really?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Its a Deba, you're looking at the back/ura side, AFAIK its supposed to be 100% pure hagane.


Good point. I'm so used to seeing sanmai that I was thinking it was a crack in the cladding, when in fact its a defect in the harder W#1 steel.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> A response I would expect would be something like, "No, this is a minor delamination between core and clading that doesn't effect structural integrity or function of the knife and is only cosmetic. Nonetheless, due to this flaw we sold this knife as second with a reduced price." Second statement optional ofcourse. Deleting the question, fine. Blocking me, I guess it is their IG. Tells me all I need to know....


What a petty response. I wonder who is policing that account at this time of day. Its the early hours in Japan.


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## Barclid (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Its a Deba, you're looking at the back/ura side, AFAIK its supposed to be 100% pure hagane.



Incorrect. There's soft steel that folds over the spine onto the backside. Check any clad single bevel.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> What a petty response. I wonder who is policing that account at this time of day. Its the early hours in Japan.


Quite common. I know a bunch of people who have been blocked on IG for pointing out errors in posts by knife collectors (some KKF members) posting inaccurate information.


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## gman (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Good point. I'm so used to seeing sanmai that I was thinking it was a crack in the cladding, when in fact its a defect in the harder W#1 steel.



some debas have the cladding wrap over the spine and part way down the ura, but not clear if jiro does that or not


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> A response I would expect would be something like, "No, this is a minor delamination between core and clading that doesn't effect structural integrity or function of the knife and is only cosmetic. ...."



If you look at the structural cross section above, and locat the position of the flaw/crack/occlusion...


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

gman said:


> not clear if jiro does that or not


Guess Jiro/Hitohira don't want us to know.


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## Ivang (Sep 17, 2019)

And people complain about TF, lol. That kind of stuff makes TF look like a king, why would anyone buy a jiro at those prices?

I dont think theres 40something different jiro owners, i think theres a few "savvy" guys that jumped in the wagoon before everyone else did and they became even more unattainable that have most of the earlier ones, and then the guys that started to read here and there about them, and immediately didnt want to be left out, you know, shigefusa and kato all over again.

At this point we will start to see if indeed this jiro guy is as chingon as the dudes that make a profit from selling his stuff say he is, as all the information about him seems to come from his vendors.

But before people start to compare to the older dudes, let me see a bunch of shiges with that kind of issue, out of all the knives that have been made, how many of them came like that in their blue box?


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> If you look at the structural cross section above, and locat the position of the flaw/crack/occlusion...


I agree with you I think it is potentially a bigger deal than my "expected" response, but them downplaying it would be expected and in all honesty I can't tell exactly what is going on from that picture, leading to my question.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Ivang said:


> why would anyone buy a jiro at those prices?


Cos of the slick sycophantic IG account, with its studio quality photos and hip lighting. That stuff ain't cheap you know, especially when you're using a professional Danish photographer


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## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

Then I guess I will get blocked soon too.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> Then I guess I will get blocked soon too.


Only if you ask a reasonable question If you're a flag waving fanboy you'll be safe.


----------



## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

I actually got a reply from Jiro, cool.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I agree with you I think it is potentially a bigger deal than my "expected" response, but them downplaying it would be expected and in all honesty I can't tell exactly what is going on from that picture, leading to my question.



Yeah, it will depend on whatever the cross section is that Jiro uses. I guess we will see what Matus has been told.


----------



## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

I got 4 replies from him in total (though I did not refer the the obvious flaw, but just replied to another comment where someone was praising the urasuki - and I respectfully disagreed.

Funny thing is that Jiro deleted 2 of his answers shortly after he posted them. After all that he started to follow me. I would like to talk to him, but the language barrier may make it difficult to avoid miss interpretation.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

View attachment 61278


Matus said:


> I got 4 replies from him in total (though I did not refer the the obvious flaw, but just replied to another comment where someone was praising the urasuki - and I respectfully disagreed.
> 
> Funny thing is that Jiro deleted 2 of his answers shortly after he posted them. After all that he started to follow me. I would like to talk to him, but the language barrier may make it difficult to avoid miss interpretation.


Sure you're getting replies from the real Jiro-san? I highly doubt it. It's 3.30am in Japan.

What odd replies


----------



## Barmoley (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> I got 4 replies from him in total (though I did not refer the the obvious flaw, but just replied to another comment where someone was praising the urasuki - and I respectfully disagreed.
> 
> Funny thing is that Jiro deleted 2 of his answers shortly after he posted them. After all that he started to follow me. I would like to talk to him, but the language barrier may make it difficult to avoid miss interpretation.


You being a knife maker maybe helped. I don't have any posts on my Instagram, so he didn't feel like replying to me and blocked me....makes sense.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> You being a knife maker maybe helped. I don't have any posts on my Instagram, so he didn't feel like replying to me and blocked me....makes sense.


I'm convinced thats not Jiro-san, but someone hired to monitor the IG account out-of-hours


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## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

I do not need to speculate whether it is Jiro or someone else who runs his IG.

Well, maybe it helped that I have photo of knives in y IG, I would not overestimate that though - whoever gives it 2 minutes will quickly find out that I am just a stock removal hobbyist. Really not too relevant when compared to hand forged san/ni-mai blades.


----------



## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I'm convinced thats not Jiro-san, but someone hired to monitor the IG account out-of-hours



Jiro has a social media handler? 
It would be irony or all irony if this "flaw" is some kind of legit optical illusion



Matus said:


> I do not need to speculate whether it is Jiro or someone else who runs his IG.
> 
> Well, maybe it helped that I have photo of knives in y IG, I would not overestimate that though - whoever gives it 2 minutes will quickly find out that I am just a stock removal hobbyist. Really not too relevant when compared to hand forged san/ni-mai blades.



Matus, did he shed any light on what was going on in the picture? Or was he just saying hello or making small talk?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

The 'flaw' does appear to follow an intersection between two separate pieces of steel. It almost looks like a Hamon line but maybe Jiro does indeed fold over the soft steel cladding on his ni-mai blades. The line continues into the tang.


----------



## inferno (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> It would be irony or all irony if this "flaw" is some kind of legit optical illusion



of course its just an optical illusion, smudge on the lens and then some dust on the sensor, thats why it looks like a crack. its commonly known as the cracked blade illusion in the photo industry.

on a serious note though. the blade is welded to jigane that folds around on the hagane side (that we can all see with our own eyes) and the point where they meet was not welded completely.

I have seen similar on my mizono tanrenjo mini deba but in another spot. so i guess it happens.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Matus, did he shed any light on what was going on in the picture? Or was he just saying hello or making small talk?


Don't know what the 2 deleted messages said but ones I can see are merely fob off, throwaway responses from someone who isn't a blacksmith or even pretending to be one.


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## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Don't know what the 2 deleted messages said but ones I can see are merely fob off, throwaway responses from someone who isn't a blacksmith or even pretending to be one.


Possible.

As Bryan already said - it is a lamination issue. The dark, low contrast photo makes it hard to see on a phone, now I am on a PC and it is much easier to see.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> As Bryan already said - it is a lamination issue. The dark, low contrast photo makes it hard to see on a phone, now I am on a PC and it is much easier to see.


Totally agree. Not a crack per se but a lamination issue during the welding step, that extends down the spine.


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## parbaked (Sep 17, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Despite the flaw, I'd buy it. Gorgeous knife. #powerful #soul


You don't need to defend Jiro...it's Hitohira that is being questioned here. 



DitmasPork said:


> I'm assuming that most people buying Jiros are pretty savvy.



I don't consider buyers who discover a product by following a marketing company's IG to necessarily be savvy. 
Hitohira commissioned an inexperienced blacksmith to make some sexy knives designed to sell exclusively to overseas collectors.
They come up with the clever idea to number each knife and throw in a thoughtful piece of calligraphy...now that's savvy!!

No doubt a number very knowledgeable and experienced enthusiasts have bought Jiros to try, but I wouldn't assume most knife collectors are savvy...


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Jiro is like catnip to the western buyer/collector.

Wonder what happened to #'s 36-46 in the series


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## Matus (Sep 17, 2019)

Note to self: I only continue this discussion as I find it socially interesting, not topic-wise relevant 

I see 2 points here:

1) The price point of rustically made and finished knives made by young, unknown maker. 

2) The fact that several knives with obvious flaws were sold either at full price or with a slight discount (and claimed as a ). Especially the last case or considerable delamination that really should not have been offered for sale - frankly I do not understand why Jiro did not toss it - that must have been well visible early in the grinding stage.

Both points may have negative impact on Jiro's future carer and how he will be perceived once he will try to expand to different knife styles and finishes. But frankly the second point is more serious in my opinion as it tries to make a point of selling a flawed/blemished product as unique and not as simply as, well, flawed/blemished product. 

I am wondering what Jiro thinks and what is his long term strategy. He must have trained under experienced makers and have seen and handled countless well made knives.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

Matus said:


> The dark, low contrast photo makes it hard to see on a phone, now I am on a PC and it is much easier to see.



Hmm..chiarroscurro mabye obscures it up by the flaw...down by the emoto there is more of a lamination line for sure.


----------



## never mind (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Good point. I'm so used to seeing sanmai that I was thinking it was a crack in the cladding, when in fact its a defect in the harder W#1 steel.



I am unsure the deba is white #1 or 2. On the linked page Hitohira said it’s Yasuki White (Shirogami) #2, but maybe it’s white #1


https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-045?variant=30116423041077


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

never mind said:


> I am unsure the deba is white #1 or 2. On the linked page Hitohira said it’s Yasuki White (Shirogami) #2, but maybe it’s white #1
> 
> 
> https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-045?variant=30116423041077


My bad. W#2. Also stated on IG too


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

Jiros!!!

https://www.instagram.com/p/B2htEbSneL3/


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## CiderBear (Sep 17, 2019)

Do 210mm Jiros exist with wa handle? I think I would like to try one eventually


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Do 210mm Jiros exist with wa handle? I think I would like to try one eventually



https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/jiro/products/cma-000-004?variant=28909762641973
Just gotta put your own wa handle on it.


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## dwalker (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Its a Deba, you're looking at the back/ura side, AFAIK its supposed to be 100% pure hagane.


Not true. Every clad single bevel knife I've owned or held (deba, yanigiba, funiyuki, etc., ) have cladding on the ura side in exactly this location. I've even owned one with exactly this flaw where the hagane meets the cladding. (It was a $40 knife that came with a handle I might add).


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

dwalker said:


> Not true.



In any event here is a comparison of a Shig vs a Jiro...From what I can tell, 
if this crack was on the Shig it wouldn't be the lamination line...

Also, its not intuitive that "wrought" iron would be cracking,
since its basically very ductile and not prone to "brittle fracture"

The alternative explanation to a brittle fracture of the Hagane,
is "separation of dis-similar metals", which makes sense
only in the presence of a lamination line the this precise spot,
and going in the same direction (I think).

Given the photo evidence earleir (circled in red), and other 
comparable configurations (see picture) its not always obvious
what we are looking at, hence why we are having discussion.

Shig 165 vs Jiro 150 Deba

A Shig Lamination is visible, you can see with the arrows.

The Jiro lamination, is visible only by the handle clearly.
But it's also plausibly co-located further forward up the blade. 

Thus, a "fault line" type separationbetween two dis-similar metals
is plausible explanation (a "literal" crack still results of course).

Although of course this could also be wrong


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

Here's an "enhanced" image of the Jiro, modified to highlight an apparent lamination line.






(someone can critique this if they want, please feel free to add your own interpretation)


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Here's an "enhanced" image of the Jiro, modified to highlight an apparent lamination line.
> 
> View attachment 61288
> 
> ...


Works for me. Poor lamination of the soft iron cladding along the ura (left side) which only extends down the blade as far as the fissure. NOT a crack in the higane. In other pics you can see the crack extend further towards the tip along top of the spine following the weld, but Jiro has tried to mask by grinding away at the metal.


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## Barclid (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> In any event here is a comparison of a Shig vs a Jiro...From what I can tell,
> if this crack was on the Shig it wouldn't be the lamination line...
> 
> Also, its not intuitive that "wrought" iron would be cracking,
> ...


If you're at all familiar with single bevel construction your first thought would be delamination, not a crack in the hardened steel. The fact that the cladding on the shigefusa doesn't go as far up the blade as on the Jiro is irrelevant. I have a Masamoto Yanagi with an identical "crack" as you say and I've seen Shigefusa and Kato with delamination as well.


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2019)

Maybe the lamination crack was a custom order request?


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## Ivang (Sep 17, 2019)

Yeah, I've seen stuff like this in cheap ass old and battered knives, never in a bnib 500+ knife. It somehow doesnt scream craftmanship and commitment to quality to me. But then again, im not a savvy guy.

Oh. I had a TF nashiji that had some minor (nothing compared to this) delamination along the spine, it cut like a mother****er and cost less than half than this. IF jiros w1 is as good as TF, THEN they may be worth as much as a nashiji, but that is a big if


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Maybe the lamination crack was a custom order request?


Like a fingernail notch


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Ivang said:


> IF jiros w1 is as good as TF, THEN they may be worth as much as a nashiji, but that is a big if


Highly unlikely. TF may call it W#1 but its a proprietory formulation that was developed and optimized for their forging/HT process (Mab line, not Nashiji which uses prelaminated bar stock).


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## Barclid (Sep 17, 2019)

Ivang said:


> Yeah, I've seen stuff like this in cheap ass old and battered knives, never in a bnib 500+ knife. It somehow doesnt scream craftmanship and commitment to quality to me. But then again, im not a savvy guy.
> 
> Oh. I had a TF nashiji that had some minor (nothing compared to this) delamination along the spine, it cut like a mother****er and cost less than half than this. IF jiros w1 is as good as TF, THEN they may be worth as much as a nashiji, but that is a big if


http://imgur.com/a/SzEhFwz


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Barclid said:


> http://imgur.com/a/SzEhFwz


Yours? How was it sold? As a 2nd?

Def not cheap ass or old and battered.

These guys will put any old tat on the market


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## Ivang (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Yours? How was it sold? As a 2nd?
> 
> Def not cheap ass or old and battered.
> 
> These guys will put any old tat on the market




I see


----------



## Barclid (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Yours? How was it sold? As a 2nd?



It was a Buyee acquisition. Used condition. But does it really matter? Fact is, Shigefusa AND Kato can be found on the market right now with delam flaws. The Kato I'm referencing isn't in my possession or I'd take a picture and post it. I also have a 21cm Shigefusa Kasumi Yanagiba with a tiny little delam spot in the same area as that Jiro. Nowhere near as bad, but the point is it happens.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

Barclid said:


>



Ouch.


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## GoodMagic (Sep 17, 2019)

Unbelievable. Unacceptable workmanship. I personally have no respect for anyone whose sells their failures, which that is. Personally I would never list that.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Barclid said:


> It was a Buyee acquisition. Used condition. But does it really matter? Fact is, Shigefusa AND Kato can be found on the market right now with delam flaws. The Kato I'm referencing isn't in my possession or I'd take a picture and post it. I also have a 21cm Shigefusa Kasumi Yanagiba with a tiny little delam spot in the same area as that Jiro. Nowhere near as bad, but the point is it happens.


I know. I've seen an example in the last couple of months of a Kato 240 with some noticeable lamination irregularities. Almost the entire length of the blade had a dark lamination line that could be felt with a finger nail. I now ask for clear pics of both sides to avoid acquiring one of these blades which I consider sub-par.


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## Barclid (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Ouch.



I didn't buy it to collect or re-sell. I wanted to use it. So I'm personally not worried; it's not at risk of falling apart due to that.


----------



## milkbaby (Sep 17, 2019)




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## aboynamedsuita (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Here's an "enhanced" image of the Jiro, modified to highlight an apparent lamination line.
> 
> View attachment 61288
> 
> ...





Barclid said:


> If you're at all familiar with single bevel construction your first thought would be delamination, not a crack in the hardened steel. The fact that the cladding on the shigefusa doesn't go as far up the blade as on the Jiro is irrelevant. I have a Masamoto Yanagi with an identical "crack" as you say and I've seen Shigefusa and Kato with delamination as well.





Ivang said:


> Yeah, I've seen stuff like this in cheap ass old and battered knives, never in a bnib 500+ knife. It somehow doesnt scream craftmanship and commitment to quality to me. But then again, im not a savvy guy.
> 
> Oh. I had a TF nashiji that had some minor (nothing compared to this) delamination along the spine, it cut like a mother****er and cost less than half than this. IF jiros w1 is as good as TF, THEN they may be worth as much as a nashiji, but that is a big if





Barclid said:


> http://imgur.com/a/SzEhFwz



These are shigefusa Kitaeji (NOS) and you can see the same “crack” or “delam”. I had a takobiki from this batch when maksim got them (c.2016) and it also had it to a certain extent. 

Pics are from Jns website as I can’t get to my old photo bucket too easily. Have a look yourself if you don’t believe me (it was on the deba and a couple others) https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kitaeji-deba-240mm-old-stock/


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## tgfencer (Sep 17, 2019)

GoodMagic said:


> Unbelievable. Unacceptable workmanship. I personally have no respect for anyone whose sells their failures, which that is. Personally I would never list that.



I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm.

I have absolutely zero interest in the Jiro price/value debate, but I will say that I have a knife that I bought above the $500 dollar mark from a well-known Western maker that has several very obvious delamination spots. It was acknowledged as such at the time of purchase by the maker and has in no way impacted performance. A tool is a tool and if it's still fit for the purpose, scrapping it can be an unnecessary waste. 

Think about it like this. As a farmer, if an animal has a cut on its hoof or foot at the time of slaughter, I'm not going to throw away the entire carcass when I could just cut away the affected flesh, unless of course the whole thing's been compromised. That would be a waste of the animal's life and purpose, as well as a waste of the money and resources spent raising it. It's up to my judgement as a professional (and in some cases, the state inspection service) whether it's acceptable to sell to a customer or just keep for personal use. 

In the case of this Jiro blade, I would find it difficult to believe that a craftsmen would risk his name and reputation by trying to eek out a bit of profit from a knife that was truly unfit for purpose, just like I wouldn't risk or condone selling someone meat of poor quality or that might make them sick. Whether or not you would buy a knife with cosmetic or minor defects, and at what price, is between you and your credit card.


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2019)

Do you guys pay the same amount of money for a knife that has a lamination problem as it would to buy the same knife without it?


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> In the case of this Jiro blade, I would find it difficult to believe that a craftsmen would risk his name and reputation by trying to eek out a bit of profit from a knife that was truly unfit for purpose...



The question is, as outlined in the quote above, is whether
a "real fracture" makes a Deba un-fit for purpose.

It seems premature to rule out the possibilty without further analysis, tho.

IMHO, the issue is NOT whether or not an "occult" fracture 
is really a fracture...it is a "Real" feature/crack/etc.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> The question is, as outlined in the quote above, is whether
> a "real fracture" makes a Deba un-fit for purpose.
> 
> It seems premature to rule out the possibilty without further analysis, tho.
> ...


Well at a bare minimum that fissure is going to be hard to keep dry and clean


----------



## Sharpchef (Sep 18, 2019)

Funny discussion here  . 

The guys who don`t accept that the price for knifes without a good or even any F&F , absolutely non traditional coresteel, and western handles that look like Herder in it`s bad days (really i know at least two boys (not adults) that make at least better handles and way better knifes before the age of 18.....) ... Well they like the "traditional" way this knifes where made.  What is traditional, scraping the soft iron with a sen iron ? like Kato did in the video right before he go to the Benchgrinder (not in the video)  ... Poor fitted handles ? is this really the japanese tradition ? if so, this is maybe why i don`t like J knifes that much. 
Delamination (in this case maybe no problem for the user) and the other obvious faults ? What `s up guys are you kidding ? 

If you like real traditional forging and grinding, ask Xerxes, he even melts the steel like 1000 years ago, and uses only materials that are used these times (no Benchgrinder, only handmade files, ancient stones etc...) for some small EDC knifes, but i am sure you may ask him for a super traditional 
kitchenknife also... This will be not as "cheap" as Jiro but traditional...

Is it traditional to use a Hammering machine ? Is there any tradition in Japan with Full Tang knifes ?, is there anything in this really nice marketing story that can stand an obvious view... ? I don`t think so. 

The only really strong argument for Jiro knifes is the price Ho Ho, "this knifes has too be super cool because they are pricey...." 

And what about Raquin ? See his prices, as an maker with nearly the same approach and he is well regarded, and you get what you pay for! Not like this "you get what it was hyped for" thing.... 

Greets Sebastian.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 18, 2019)

aboynamedsuita said:


> These are shigefusa Kitaeji (NOS) and you can see the same “crack” or “delam”.



Is it possible "new, old stock" because they were in the rejects pile?


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Sep 18, 2019)

Matus said:


> 1) The price point of rustically made and finished knives made by young, unknown maker.



Looking at his photos I don't think 'young' is appropriate. To me he looks to be in his mid-late 40's. I'd love to know where he was working before starting up his business with Hitohira.

So much for traditional methods. Can anyone say power hammer. Its a cool video nonetheless


----------



## ian (Sep 18, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Do you guys pay the same amount of money for a knife that has a lamination problem as it would to buy the same knife without it?



Seriously. It’s one thing to decide to sell a product that you think still works, and another to not acknowledge any imperfections. Selling this as a second while describing carefully the lamination issue would be good business, imo, but that doesn’t seem to be what happened.

I can see something like that being a little annoying everytime you run a towel over it, and as others have said, making the knife harder to dry.


----------



## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Is it possible "new, old stock" because they were in the rejects pile?



https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kasumi-yanagiba-270-mm/

There you go, not NOS. I don't know why we're still pushing on this subject. It's a fairly common occurrence and can be found in other brands' knives. This particular delam in the Jiro just happens to be more significant than most. My point is this; with all the totally valid concerns with Jiro's knives as they stand now, everyone has just boarded a hate train for seemingly no better reason than that it's the "in" thing to do on the forum. But I guess there's no other compelling discussion happening here lately, which seems typical of the forum as it stands now.


----------



## ian (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> My point is this; with all the totally valid concerns with Jiro's knives as they stand now, everyone has just boarded a hate train for seemingly no better reason than that it's the "in" thing to do on the forum. But I guess there's no other compelling discussion happening here lately, which seems typical of the forum as it stands now.



Little harsh, I think. Although it’s true that the longer a thread is, the smaller the average amount of new content in each post is. But whatever, we the people want to be amused.


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kitaeji-yanagiba-300mm-old-stock/

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kitaeji-deba-240mm-old-stock/

https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kitaeji-deba-240mm-old-stock/

http://www.japan-tool.com/zc/index.php?main_page=popup_image_additional&pID=878&pic=1&products_image_large_additional=images/Usuba195 Feb18_02.jpg

https://www.japanese-cutlery.com/product/m1812-1/ (https://i.imgur.com/q58MvHE.png)\

Damn look at all these defective Shigefusa. Should have all been at least 50% off.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 18, 2019)

Glad I'm only in the market for double bevels.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kasumi-yanagiba-270-mm/
> 
> ...everyone has just boarded a hate train for seemingly no better reason than that it's the "in" thing to do on the forum...



LOL you're posting this in what was basically a "Jiro Hype Thread" 

I'm not following or finding the strenght to either counter argument, viz

"hey you can find these flaws with other western dealers as well"? 
"hey you can also find these flaws also on ebay or buyee auctionsl"? 

If one wants to buy flaws or seconds for cheap, OK
If one wants to market flaws at markups on BST or via vendors / dealers, people seem to be more critical.

Maybe that's just the market "incorporating" information ...?

Not sure why this is so personal in the attack.


----------



## DitmasPork (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kitaeji-yanagiba-300mm-old-stock/
> 
> https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kitaeji-deba-240mm-old-stock/
> 
> ...


Only reason to have them at 50% off would be if there was no market for them at 100%—so long as buyers were aware of flaw.


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## Midsummer (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kasumi-yanagiba-270-mm/
> 
> There you go, not NOS. I don't know why we're still pushing on this subject. It's a fairly common occurrence and can be found in other brands' knives. This particular delam in the Jiro just happens to be more significant than most. My point is this; with all the totally valid concerns with Jiro's knives as they stand now, everyone has just boarded a hate train for seemingly no better reason than that it's the "in" thing to do on the forum. But I guess there's no other compelling discussion happening here lately, which seems typical of the forum as it stands now.



I suspect what is going on is that a lot of people here see these knives and see something very nice, something they would like to try and to have. But, by intuitive measure the knife is priced much above what it should be. Something seems wrong... Others can intellectualize/ rationalize away their instincts (it will have great value one day, it is very special..).

For those who see a good knife at 3-4 times what they expect there is a cognitive dissonance. Suddenly their limited knife buying budget (lets face it, we ALL have limits) has been diminished by 70-80%. They do not want this to "catch on" in the knife universe. I think it is that which makes them appear to bristle.

I have stayed in this thread because I have an opinion and I can sometimes rationalize some decisions. But also because I have learned things from you and other members. 

We can agree to disagree, there is no shame in that.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 18, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> LOL you're posting this in what was basically a "Jiro Hype Thread"
> 
> I'm not following or finding the strenght to either counter argument, viz
> 
> ...



Incorrect. This is not a “Jiro hype thread,” but I started the thread with the intention of polling what people would pay for a Jiro 240 gyuto—based upon whatever parameters they use when buying knives. A few Jiro owners have chimed in with positive comments on the knife, but sadly the majority of non Jiro owners have a louder voice, sometimes bordering on vitriol.

One thing is clear, Jiro is like Vegemite—you either love it or hate it.

Personally, I can’t afford a Jiro, but view him as an exciting maker that’s new to the knife scene, with a unique artistic vision. Quite remarkable how he’s attracted so much attention from collectors of his knives, as well as those that just know them from afar.


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> LOL you're posting this in what was basically a "Jiro Hype Thread"
> 
> I'm not following or finding the strenght to either counter argument, viz
> 
> ...





Barclid said:


> https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kitaeji-yanagiba-300mm-old-stock/
> 
> https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kitaeji-deba-240mm-old-stock/
> 
> ...



It's funny that you think they're all going to some magical "**** knives" pile like they're secondhand goods because of a little cosmetic "issue". Imagine you working in a kitchen and your sous chef came around with calipers and threw away your brunoise because it was 5/32" instead of 1/8". You'd cost the restaurant a lot of money in wasted product because you weren't perfect and it had to be perfect even though you're cutting them by hand and you're not a robot. Same thing; these knives are produced by hand and I think it's funny that you expect someone putting that much time and effort into something they created to take a loss on it if it's not a critical flaw.

And no, I'm not telling you not to talk **** on Jiro or to critically evaluate his work. But you don't even seem to know how single bevel knives are produced, as you couldn't identify that it was a lamination fault to begin with so I'm curious why you got hung up on it given the other things we could meaningfully critique his knives for (e.g. wonky grinds and hammer lows in the blade face). Get my drift?



DitmasPork said:


> Only reason to have them at 50% off would be if there was no market for them at 100%—so long as buyers were aware of flaw.



I was being facetious.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> Damn look at all these defective Shigefusa. Should have all been at least 50% off.



I wonder if someone knowledgeble like Zwerber12 has any examples that match these in his museum/collection? 

In any event, these are the competing hypotheses:

1) western buyers are "too dumb to know better"
2) western buyers are "too dumb not to know when good enough is good enough"

So maybe evidence from the JDM market would be more "neutral" in its explanation?


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## ian (Sep 18, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Only reason to have them at 50% off would be if there was no market for them at 100%—so long as buyers were aware of flaw.



Yea, I don't understand how prices work at this level. Sort of seems that if a knife with an imperfection sells for x, a perfect knife should sell for >x, so if you can sell the above examples for "100%", I guess you may as well price the ones without flaws higher. But maybe at this level, it's more like art and things like delamination issues are just `character' and aren't viewed as flaws.



Barclid said:


> It's funny that you think they're all going to some magical "**** knives" pile like they're secondhand goods because of a little cosmetic "issue". Imagine you working in a kitchen and your sous chef came around with calipers and threw away your brunoise because it was 5/32" instead of 1/8". You'd cost the restaurant a lot of money in wasted product because you weren't perfect and it had to be perfect even though you're cutting them by hand and you're not a robot. Same thing; these knives are produced by hand and I think it's funny that you expect someone putting that much time and effort into something they created to take a loss on it if it's not a *critical* flaw.
> 
> And no, I'm not telling you not to talk **** on Jiro or to critically evaluate his work. But you don't even seem to know how single bevel knives are produced, as you couldn't identify that it was a lamination fault to begin with so I'm curious why you got hung up on it given the other things we could meaningfully critique his knives for (e.g. wonky grinds and hammer lows in the blade face). Get my drift?



Presumably, the price of a > $500 knife isn't just a measure of its performance. If $200 of the price is aesthetics and or the romantic story of the maker,`critical' has a different meaning.


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> I wonder if someone knowledgeble like Zwerber12 has any examples that match these in his museum/collection?
> 
> In any event, these are the competing hypotheses:
> 
> ...



You realize I pulled at least one of those from a Japanese retailer right?

Edit: and yes, he does have them in his collection. You can see it on his website.


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## Sharpchef (Sep 18, 2019)

> Product Description
> This is super Unique Yanagiba is made only by Mr. Tokifusa Iizuka for 40+ years ago !!!
> I had this super rare opportunity to by all old stock Kitaeji knives from old Store that had them for over 40 years
> So thats why they cost bit more then regular as i paid full price for them !
> ...



Old knife was harder... bit pure steel... Didn`t old shifefurza playing with Master Iwasaki ? Is the swedish steel (because any other steel from japan was crap  ) used for the super unique Shigefurza knifes ? Why it was harder these days... Why did he pay the full price... because of the extra black delamination line ? really you believe this ? .

Ok believe or not, it does not matter what brand a knife has, the performance rules (at least in my opinion, and i may be wrong for sure), but knifes like kato, shigefusa etc.... and at least Jiro (not even proved to be middle class performer  ) and nothing else. If you are a collector, and we see this in BST nearly every day, nice knifes NIB, never sharpened, as new etc... selled for 4 times as much as it is worth. A shame on you damn money maker collectors! 

Learn to use knifes instead of hyping any ******** that comes around over 500 Dollars! 

Greets Sebastian.


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

ian said:


> Yea, I don't understand how prices work at this level. Sort of seems that if a knife with an imperfection sells for x, a perfect knife should sell for >x, so if you can sell the above examples for "100%", I guess you may as well price the ones without flaws higher. But maybe at this level, it's more like art and things like delamination issues are just `character' and aren't viewed as flaws.
> 
> 
> 
> Presumably, the price of a > $500 knife isn't just a measure of its performance. If $200 of the price is aesthetics and or the romantic story of the maker,`critical' has a different meaning.



W
A
B
I 

S
A
B
I


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## Cyrilix (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kasumi-yanagiba-270-mm/
> 
> There you go, not NOS. I don't know why we're still pushing on this subject. It's a fairly common occurrence and can be found in other brands' knives. This particular delam in the Jiro just happens to be more significant than most. My point is this; with all the totally valid concerns with Jiro's knives as they stand now, everyone has just boarded a hate train for seemingly no better reason than that it's the "in" thing to do on the forum. But I guess there's no other compelling discussion happening here lately, which seems typical of the forum as it stands now.



I'm not seeing it the way you do. I've been very happy to follow this thread and see the discussion. I actually think the defenders here are a little ridiculous, and are actually the ones continuing to drive this discussion. People that don't acknowledge defects from knives that we pay HUGE sums of money for. Not everyone is made of money and paying several hundred dollars for kitchen knives is a luxury purchase, anywhere in the world. As with any luxury purchase, the bar is high and the sentiment here largely reflects a difference in expectation vs what is seen in reality.

You can argue all you want that no one should have these expectations but people do.


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## Eloh (Sep 18, 2019)

I mean if we want to look at it strictly from a market perspective then we don't need to talk about the price at all. They sell out so the price is correct, period. 
But the same is true for Chelsea Miller knives etc. 

So when we want to talk value per money on some level then I think the criticism is totally fair. 

I'm not at all mad at the craftsman though...


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> I'm not seeing it the way you do. I've been very happy to follow this thread and see the discussion. I actually think the defenders here are a little ridiculous, and are actually the ones continuing to drive this discussion. People that don't acknowledge defects from knives that we pay HUGE sums of money for. Not everyone is made of money and paying several hundred dollars for kitchen knives is a luxury purchase, anywhere in the world. As with any luxury purchase, the bar is high and the sentiment here largely reflects a difference in expectation vs what is seen in reality.
> 
> You can argue all you want that no one should have these expectations but people do.



If you read what I said in totality you'll understand that my sticking point is not that people are critiquing him (I am as well and did in a recent post), but that so much emphasis is being placed on things that really don't even matter to the performance of the knife. You want to critique minute levels of fit and finish? Why has no one mentioned that the Uraoshi is uneven? Is THAT level of inconsistency acceptable to all of you in a handmade knife but a lamination fault isn't? Uraoshi/Urasuki being inconsistent will at least have more meaningful impact on the knife's usage over time. My guess is because most people don't use single bevel knives here so they really aren't even sure how to critically evaluate something from a usage standpoint. They are to collect pretty, pristine knives and so most of the critiques seem centered around aesthetic.


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## McMan (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kitaeji-yanagiba-300mm-old-stock/
> 
> https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/shigefusa-kitaeji-deba-240mm-old-stock/
> 
> ...


This makes me wonder is those Shigs were "seconds" sold at full price...


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## labor of love (Sep 18, 2019)

Nothing screams aesthetic quite like a shig kitaeji with a long crack running down the side of it.


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## suntravel (Sep 18, 2019)

Well i do not see any hate here, but different opinions about quality/price.

Delamaination is a fault, no matter from which maker, gaps in the handle work on full tang also.

Would you by a new car with a big scratch in the paintjob or a crack in the windshield for the full price?

Regards 

Uwe


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## Matus (Sep 18, 2019)

I actually did mention the uneven uraoshi (though I mixed up the terms and used urasuki instead) directly under his IG post and got an answer along the lines that I should see/try the knife in person. That is correct when it comes to performance, but not when it comes to F&F. If one can spot such an imperfection online, than it will not look better in person.


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## JBroida (Sep 18, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Looking at his photos I don't think 'young' is appropriate. To me he looks to be in his mid-late 40's. I'd love to know where he was working before starting up his business with Hitohira.
> 
> So much for traditional methods. Can anyone say power hammer. Its a cool video nonetheless



if you think that other craftsmen in japan arent all using power hammers, you should be prepared to be very surprised


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## Sharpchef (Sep 18, 2019)

suntravel said:


> Well i do not see any hate here, but different opinions about quality/price.
> 
> Delamaination is a fault, no matter from which maker, gaps in the handle work on full tang also.
> 
> ...



The question should be:

Would you like to buy a car for the price of an Porsche and the optic of an Trabant without knowledge about performance ?

But this is no question! Some guys are so "stupid" (sorry....) and do so. 

Greets Sebastian.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> You realize I pulled at least one of those from a Japanese retailer right?





Barclid said:


> ...my sticking point is not that people are critiquing him (I am as well and did in a recent post), but that so much emphasis is being placed on things that really don't even matter to the performance of the knife.



You realize that Kitaji pattern was invented to maximize "geometric stability" right?
And that having a cracked laminate is counter-thetical to geomertic stability, right?

Its not like Shigefusa wasn't awarded a patent for this innovation,
and that this innovation is what made his knives sought after in he east,
and later collectors objects in the west?

I mean, we all know this basic history...??




Or maybe someone can correct me?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 18, 2019)

JBroida said:


> if you think that other craftsmen in japan arent all using power hammers, you should be prepared to be very surprised


Under no illusions here. Just pointing out that the Jiro brand extolling their traditional, handmade, artisanal credentials as presented on IG is a little disingenuous.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 18, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> You realize that Kitaji pattern was invented to maximize "geometric stability" right?
> And that having a cracked laminate is counter-thetical to geomertic stability, right?
> 
> Its not like Shigefusa wasn't awarded a patent for this innovation,
> ...


I did not know that


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## Sharpchef (Sep 18, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> You realize that Kitaji pattern was invented to maximize "geometric stability" right?
> And that having a cracked laminate is counter-thetical to geomertic stability, right?
> 
> Its not like Shigefusa wasn't awarded a patent for this innovation,
> ...



I don`t get this joke, can you explain ?

Greets SEbastian.


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> You realize that Kitaji pattern was invented to maximize "geometric stability" right?
> And that having a cracked laminate is counter-thetical to geomertic stability, right?
> 
> Its not like Shigefusa wasn't awarded a patent for this innovation,
> ...



Yeah you're gonna have to cite a source for the "geometric stability" aspect of that patent bud.


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## McMan (Sep 18, 2019)

FWIW @ojisan mentioned this in another thread, and includes the patent number. 


ojisan said:


> My nakiri is sumiganashi, and has a sticker that says “墨流し(R) PAT. 973389. ” (墨流し is Suminagashi). This patent number refers the original patent of the suminagashi cladding technology in Japan submitted in 1973 by Iiduka-san (Shigefusa), his master and a sword smith Nagashima-san, the 1000-year-nail smith Sirataka-san, and Kato-san of the former president and the current chairman of Kiya (Kiya and Shigefusa has another long story to tell…).


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> Yeah you're gonna have to cite a source for the "geometric stability" aspect of that patent bud.


Here you go. Would need to pull original patent to understand on what basis the patent was awarded

Ojisan stated
My nakiri is sumiganashi, and has a sticker that says “墨流し(R) PAT. 973389. ” (墨流し is Suminagashi). This patent number refers the original patent of the suminagashi cladding technology in Japan submitted in 1973 by Iiduka-san (Shigefusa), his master and a sword smith Nagashima-san, the 1000-year-nail smith Sirataka-san, and Kato-san of the former president and the current chairman of Kiya (Kiya and Shigefusa has another long story to tell…). So Hirotomo got licensed to produce sumiganashi knives from those patent holders, meaning Hirotomo had some relationship with Shigefusa as well.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 18, 2019)

I guess Jiro designed the delamination into the Deba from the getgo. If anyone goes to this shindig please ask. So NOT sold?


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> lol



Seen that. But have you actually read it?

As far as I can understand, they're claiming improvements on shock absorption, sharpenability and edge retention versus Western knives. Basically, extolling the virtues of their invention so as to be able to patent it and prove it sufficiently unique and innovative, same as any patent applicant should.

Also worth noting is the patent is long expired, since 1996.


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## McMan (Sep 18, 2019)

If you really want to dig and/or can read Japanese...
Go to https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/ and punch in 973389.
It shows the patent history and filing. It was initially applied for in 1973, refused, then granted in 1979. That's as far as I can get, not reading Japanese and all...


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

Here, I'll upload the original patent application for you guys and you have a crack at translating it. Way too esoteric for me.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> Here, I'll upload the original patent application for you guys and you have a crack at translating it. Way too esoteric for me.





Barclid said:


> Seen that. But have you actually read it?



LMAO.


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

McMan said:


> If you really want to dig and/or can read Japanese...
> Go to https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/ and punch in 973389.
> It shows the patent history and filing. It was initially applied for in 1973, refused, then granted in 1979. That's as far as I can get, not reading Japanese and all...



My point wasn't that I don't think it's patented but that I don't think we should be making flippant statements about expired patents being specifically about one thing (geometric stability) without proper assessment of the source. As far as I can tell, that's just one aspect of it but my Japanese comprehension is far, far from advanced enough for what they're saying here. @ojisan probably read it before, maybe he's willing to try.


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## suntravel (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> As far as I can understand, they're claiming improvements on shock absorption, sharpenability and edge retention versus Western knives. Basically, extolling the virtues of their invention so as to be able to patent it and prove it sufficiently unique and innovative, same as any patent applicant should.



Its Shirogami 

No problem to outperform this with modern western steels and modern forging/HT 

Also a Sukenari HAP40 is an other world regarding performance of the edge.

Regards

Uwe


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## HRC_64 (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> My point wasn't that I don't think it's patented but that I don't think we should be making flippant statements about expired patents being specifically about one thing (geometric stability) without proper assessment of the source. As far as I can tell, that's just one aspect of it but my Japanese comprehension is far, far from advanced enough for what they're saying here. @ojisan probably read it before, maybe he's willing to try.



I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this level of ignorance...


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> LMAO.



Given your non-answer, that's a no.


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## Barclid (Sep 18, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this level of ignorance...



Give us your best crack at a complete translation. I'd love to hear your full understanding since you're using it as source material for an argument you must have a really solid grasp of it.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 18, 2019)

Barclid said:


> Give us your best crack at a complete translation. I'd love to hear your full understanding since you're using it as source material for an argument you must have a really solid grasp of it.



Sure... Q&A with Iizuka san 


> "The biggest concern for clad knife was the bending after years because of different stress of jigane and hagane for single bevel knife. Honyaki solves this but it has also many inferior characteristics. One is difficult to sharpen. Other is the failure rate at heat treatment if you want the steel hard. I solved the problem making kitaeji clad. Kitaeji is a mixture of layers of carbon steel and very soft steel. Because it contain carbon steel the stress is lower and does not bend after years. It is also very easy to sharpen because it has very soft steel."


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## Matus (Sep 18, 2019)

I think this thread is well past its bed time as all that is left is insults and personal attacks. Move on guys.


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