# Stone Session - JNS Ikarashi vs Vintage Ikarashi (Text and Pic Heavy)



## Smashmasta (Dec 3, 2016)

OK. I started a link to open an 'investigation' on some mixed info on Ikarashi (also called Igarashi) of point of origin, differences in color, grit size, etc. You can find that here. There are a couple of users with different ikarashis, so hopefully some input will be coming our way soon. This is my review. 


Sorry that I only do text and pics, unlike Mr. movie star, Badger, who's got a whole production team working on his videos; but I hope these reviews are helpful anyways, haha.


Again, this is a friendly competition, with a JNS ikarashi in one corner, and a vintage (~50/60s) ikarashi, likely from Kasabori proper (I'm 98% sure it's from Kasabori, but I'll double check with my source). The JNS ikarashi is a great value (although you have to flatten it yourself, which takes awhile even with diamond plates). Maxim says his Ikarashis are coming from Sanjo, Niigata prefecture which is very close to 'Kasabori' in Google maps, haha. Kasabori is in the area of Sanjo, but I don't know where exactly the mine is for either of them; Kasabori are supposed to the 'real deal' and the quality and stones of days past, but that's not to say that the JNS/ 'newer' vintage ones are bad. When I say 'JNS', I mean many of us of bought our Ikarashis from JNS from input on this forum. There are other vendors likely selling similar ikarashis, but I can't speak directly on where those come from. I think it's safe to say JNS et al. ikarashi are 'newer'/ different than the ikarashi we find in the Jnat lore. I will call these JNS ikarashi for simplicity's sake, although it's not my intention to endorse or criticize JNS via this review.


For those who aren't familiar with Ikarashis, they're generally graded at 1-2k grit, and reported to be able to put on a very toothy finish on your edge; it can also do some minor edge shaping. I have to admit that I haven't used the JNS ikarashi very much although I've had it for almost 2 months because I've been blowing my kids' college tuition on Jnats and have been going from one stone to the next (but don't worry, I don't have any kids...), so I can't speak too much about this, and I just got my vintage ikarashi in a couple days ago and haven't used it yet. And as always, these are my stones - yours could act differently.


I'm going to stay with the format I used in the Ao vs Aka renge Ohira suita of using the same knife on one stone immediately followed by the other stone for best comparison, instead of a single stone on a variety of stones as I do with single stone session reviews. '


Let's do this :shocked3:


*JNS IKARASHI*
Weights and Measures: 190x70x50; 1150g; 1.73 g/cm3
Appearance: This was one of the first stones that alerted me how much a stone can change when wet - when dry, it's got a standard white chalky appearance, with a faint tint of green alerting the eye that there could be something hiding underneath. My ikarashi also has a fun dose of kuro renge, that sometimes looks like ao renge with the tint of green/white (I might just still have ao renge on the mind, haha) and a few darker bands of that faint green. When wet, things CHANGE :idea2: It gains this almost luminescent quality to it; it's almost like a green jewel uncovered from the bottom of the sea that might have mystical powers; very cool!
Smell and Texture: Not much of a smell; a bit of clean wet cotton towel smell out of a lake. The lapped surface is pretty smooth, with some slight texture present for sure. 


*VINTAGE IKARASHI:*
Weights and Measures: 187x73x45mm; 1336g; 2.18g/cm3 (a bit denser than the JNS)
Appearance: It's much more 'pure' than the JNS ikarashi - hardly any renge, no darker bands. It's less chalky white, too. It's got more of a faint blue tint, rather than green like the JNS ikarashi. When wet, the same intense color change occurs. I compared them side by side when wet, and it's either that the vintage ikarashi does have a bit of a bluer tint, or rather that it's more saturated in the same green that the JNS is - just even more of it. Hard for me to tell, but there are some faint differences.
Smell and Texture: A very similar scent as the JNS, but again, with a bit 'more' of the wet cotton towel thing going on. Texture is similar as well, but again, feels to have a bit more texture - a bit more of everything - size (not the best comparison), density, color, smell, and texture.


*Sharpening Experience:*
*K. Sabatier*
JNS Ikarashi:
*W/O Slurry*
- Experience was so-so. It's not what I would call a thirsty stone, but water management was factor; without it things would gloss over and get slippery. Feedback was OK, nothing stellar. Things were a bit smoother than I anticipated with grit estimation and texture, although there was some texture feedback happening. 
- This edge is definitely in the 1-2K range. This is much more of what I would call a 'generic' edge - a slight bit of bite and sharpness, but not in a refined way one might get with 'better' stones; almost something you would get if you had your SS sharpened by your local hardware store. There are a lot of positive reviews about this Ikarashi on the JNS website, but I don't know what steel they're using; I wouldn't stop at this stone for SS at least. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, or maybe it's the SS, but I'm not digging the combo.
*W/ Slurry*
- Improved feedback and speed. Not much else to say.
- I generally find when I force a slurry, things get toothier with the increased concentration of abrasive particles. Here, the edge lost the little amount of teeth it had in the first place, and just got boring. I'm siding with the idea that SS, 52-54HRC at least, doesn't like this stone.


Vintage Ikarashi:
*W/O Slurry*
- Experience was better. Still not great, but a bit more smooth going, largely thanks to a reduced need for water management. It was also a bit quieter, but this isn't a big factor in the first place. Both are firm stones, but this is slightly harder, and there was less swarf build up. Things took a bit longer, but not by much. There was less of an aggressive burr built up.
- The edge was finer than I anticipated. That 'refined' edge I was talking about? This stone definitely moves in that direction. Teeth were there, but they were more uniform and 'professional', haha. Things were more keen than I thought. I would still prefer my iyoto and numata, but this isn't actually in the same grit range. This is more a 2-3, maybe even 4k range. It's closer to my aizu in such. I could finish here on SS.
*W/ Slurry*
- It took all of one second to get enough slurry built up. Things were obviously creamier. Feedback was enhanced and speed increased.
- We're definitely up in the 3-4k range, and with less teeth. It's a pleasant keenness, but honestly, I would use a different stone to reach this type of grit refinement. I'm looking for teeth here.


*Shirogami - Yoshikazu Ikeda Shiro 3 Nakiri*
JNS Ikarashi
*W/O Slurry*
- Ahhh, back to some real steel. Things were sunny again, and the streets were freshly paved. See edge results for more on this, but I was getting that 'engaged' feedback when using good steel on a harder stone, which tells you your edge is on that part of the blade is done and you can move on - weird, I thought this was a coarser stone.
- Honestly I'm a bit confused. :scratchhead: I don't know if it's Ikeda's superb steel and uber fine grain structure, but the edge was acting more like a 3-5k edge. There were very fine teeth, but it was much more on the keen side of things. Edge shaved hairs, not like a 6-8K+ edge, but shaved nonetheless. Did not act like a 1-2K stone at all with this particular steel. That's not say I'm blown away. In fact, I would like this stone to be at a grit range where it's 'supposed' to be - I want teeth here. If I wanted something keen and refined I'd use something else. But for my collection, I actually have few stones that fall naturally in this 3-5k range, with my aotos being the heart of it, so this isn't a bad thing for me personally, but teeth, please!
*W/ Slurry*
- Faster, creamier (louder)
- Meh, not impressed. No teeth. Back to the 'generic' edge.

Vintage Ikarashi
- Just about identical with the JNS ikarashi, except I actually got a bit less of that 'engaged' feedback, which is something I like (the engaged thing, that is). So better than the SS, but not as good as I was expecting.
- Just like the JNS, this edge was much more keen than expected. I actually felt less bite than the JNS, but the edge was any keener than the JNS as a result. I might have to toss this one up to poor technique, but who knows. Not what I was hoping for, again.
*W/ SLURRY*
- Faster, creamier (louder).
- Again, not what I was hoping for. Keen, but not stellar. No teeth...


*Aogami - Tanaka Aogami 2 Nakiri*
JNS Ikarashi
*W/O Slurry*
- Things were similar to the shiro, but I actually had more pronounced results, both with burr formation and edge, although I didn't get as quite a pronounced engaged feeling. Not a bad experience, not something to write about, either.
- OK, here's a bit of those teeth I've been hearing about. I'd say 2-3K range, which starts to make sense given this stones ~1K starting grit. Teeth weren't that aggressive, but the most pronounced thus far. I'm finally pleased with the edge given the idea that I'm dealing with a stone that's generally supposed to give a toothier edge.
*W/ Slurry*
- Decent experience, but got really loud. Not always the best time when that happens.
- Better results with the slurry on aogami than shiro this time around. Still not the amount of teeth I was hoping for. 2-3K range.


Vintage Ikarashi
*W/O Slurry*
- More of the same. Actually slightly preferred the JNS to this, but not by much. This was kinda boring for me.
- Edge was also kinda boring. Less teeth than JNS, and keen. Hello, teeth?
*W/ Slurry*
- Nice and creamery as per usual. Fast.
- Again, more refined than toothy. Confident to say in the 3k+ range. Cuts hair and slings through paper.


*Kataba - Shimanti Aogami 2 Deba*
JNS Ikarashi
*W/O Slurry*
- Despite somewhat muddy things got on the double bevels, things didn't get as muddy as I would've expected for my wide bevel. There was some slurry, but not much. The experience was fine, a little creamy, but nothing stellar. Water management became a factor again as mud eventually started to build up, it got a bit more thirsty and the mud a tendency to glaze quickly, leading to some scratches and splotches as I slipped a bit to a drier portion of the stone on the mud. That being said, with some practice and increased water management, it's not a terrible choice for an attempt at a kasumi finish and is on the faster side. 
*W/ Slurry*
- Oddly things seemed to get a bit more difficult. Although I was on top of water management (maybe a bit too much?), scratching was more prevalent, and I had to be very careful with my pressure. All these new factors slowed me down, and I actually preferred the non-slurry experience and finish more, which generally is not the case.


Vintage Ikarashi
*W/O Slurry*
- Less mud build up than the JNS, which slowed me down. Less glazing, though, so fewer scratches, but a much lighter kasumi finish. This needs a forced slurry to get a kasumi. That being said, the experience was smoother, not so much creamy, but since there's less water management to keep in mind, and no slipping, I had few mistakes and more consistency. Interested to see how this does with some slurry.
*W/ Slurry*
- As expected, things were a bit easier and faster. Swarf build up helped determine speed and progress. Some blotting, but with practice, can be minimized. The kasumi finish is acceptable, but not stellar. 




*FINAL THOUGHTS:*
I'm going to get out ahead of this and say that I think I've got some work to do on these stones. These seem to not be my style of stone, and I didn't have the best time with them. I think that's more on me than on the stones. I'm not one to write something off after the first couple tries, so I'll be returning to these with some presence of mind that I need to crack this egg. I think there's promise, as there tends to be strong remarks for at least the JNS Ikarashi, and strong lore of vintage Ikarashi. That being said, I (currently) greatly prefer my iyoto or Numata (I would say Aizu too, but mine is a bit finer) in terms of sharpening experience (although the Iyoto can be a bit jarring at times), and also for the edge. The experiences were so-so, and the edges tended to be more refined that I wanted, and even on the bland side. This tells me my technique needs improving for these respective stones, or they're not the best stones for me to finish at. What the iyoto or numata do super well is give you an incredible toothy, but modular edge starting at this grit - these seem too limited and generic. I was honestly hoping for more teeth. If someone has a suggestion on how to get some more teeth, point me in the direction of the dentist's for these puppies. All in all, I was unfortunately not impressed with the Vintage Ikarashi, and had slightly better results with the JNS version. But like I said, I likely have to crack the code on each of these, so take this all with a heavy grain of salt. I'm very interested to see what other users who are planning on doing a comparison with their Ikarashis have to say/experience.


*PROS:*
JNS Ikarashi
- Relatively affordable and available. Wide user base, so help is probably around the corner. I wouldn't say it's a super easy stone (at least for my style), but not too advanced, so somewhat approachable for a new user. 
Vintage Ikarashi:
- A collector's item. Even more saturated sensory input on this vs the JNS in all realms. 


*CONS:*
JNS Ikarashi:
- Pretty limited edge results. Nothing about it is stellar - speed, finish, experience, etc. 
Vintage Ikarashi
- Pretty much the same results as the JNS version, but even a little less so at times. More expensive and harder to find than the JNS version.


*TL;DR - GET ONE - YES OR NO?*
JNS Ikarashi
*Yes* - if you're new in town and want something a lot of other users have and can help you with; need a 'cheap' option in the 1-2K range.
*No* - if you're all set in the 1-2K range, and want something more interesting and modular.


Vintage Ikarashi
*Yes* - if you are a collector; like Ikarashis and have better success than I do with them.
*No* - Same no reasons as the JNS, and aren't a collector.


Thanks for reading! :thumbsup:


View attachment 33823

Vintage Ikarashi on the left

View attachment 33824

Very pure, with little kuro renge on the right.




JNS Ikarashi - much more kuro renge



Close up on kuro renge



Vintage Ikarashi slurries up well



Despite a good slurry, kasumi results were minimal, but probably just need more time. This was a quick test.



A bit darker mist with the JNS ikarashi on the tip half, but less consistent. Needs some practice.



Comparison of JNS kasumi on tip half, vintage on heel half. Looks like I need more time with the vintage, but get more consistent results, but more vivid and irregular results with the JNS.

I've got some practice to do on both of these for pretty much every aspect of finishes and steels....


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## Krassi (Dec 3, 2016)

Hiho Smashmasta!

i lapped my Ikarashi a bit and started with a Shiro Kamo Aogami 2 Nakiri that i use for tests now.
i had a nice kasumi finish from the Aizu and Uchigumori i used before and i put it flat on that and started.

-So half a minute of soaking and i had some slurry on it after using my Atoma (its greengrey).
First thing was instant dark grey (not ink black) with a hand full of strokes.. ok it behaved like yesterday in my office with the moly crap stainless knife and works pretty fast.
Shaping power seems very good on a Ikarashi and i also recognized, that it behaves similar to my Aizu in a 3000-5000 Grit range.

-So after some fun with polishing the sides i checked the result and i was amazed that the kasumi finish from before still looked polished and still hardly visable scratches.
So that Ikarashi didnt roughen and scratch my knife. Since i dondt have a pocket microscope yet, i cant confirm "what happend" in a close up 

-The Stone is a pleasure to use but i have to figure out how that Ikarashi and Aizu work best together . They are both mind from the same area and also the dark flower/spot like patterns are the same on both.
the color of the Ikarashi is way greener than my just slightly green Aizu and i guess its a full keeper !!!

-Here are some tries with my analog Zeiss Macro..and Aizu and Ikarashi next to each other.

*http://imgur.com/a/JMO7M*







seeya daniel


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## Smashmasta (Dec 3, 2016)

Krassi said:


> Hiho Smashmasta!
> 
> i lapped my Ikarashi a bit and started with a Shiro Kamo Aogami 2 Nakiri that i use for tests now.
> i had a nice kasumi finish from the Aizu and Uchigumori i used before and i put it flat on that and started.
> ...



It does sound you might have a keeper there, Daniel.

Now that you mention soaking, that's something I rarely do with my Jnats. Perhaps the ikarashi is best soaked for a couple minutes, although I would imagine, theoretically at least, that spraying water and forcing a bit of slurry would be equal, but I'll definitely check - thanks for the idea!


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## Krassi (Dec 3, 2016)

Hiho

Well no hardcore Soaking.. i just put it in my sink and turn on the water for a short time. thats it.
This stone "drinks a lot" at the beginning..i also have this with my nakayama suita, uchigumori, and also a bit with the aizu.. of course the same with the orange and grey Thai binsu .. but for me this is still splash and go.. just a little running water for 1 minute while i prepare other stuff and then its good to go.

with the finer stones it is not needed.

The stone is definetly a keeper and i have to compare it with the aizu in a battle royal  

seeya, daniel


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## Badgertooth (Dec 3, 2016)

I had your initial experience and was similarly underwhelmed. I T hen did what Daniel did with a better experience and edges. 

I noticed a more aggressive sweep of the entire blade across the stone than the section-by-section Japanese style produces the best edges on these. I think I read somewhere that this is the "Italian style". Might be wrong but it works for my Ikarashi


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## Smashmasta (Dec 4, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> I had your initial experience and was similarly underwhelmed. I T hen did what Daniel did with a better experience and edges.
> 
> I noticed a more aggressive sweep of the entire blade across the stone than the section-by-section Japanese style produces the best edges on these. I think I read somewhere that this is the "Italian style". Might be wrong but it works for my Ikarashi



I almost mentioned this, but I did the 'Italian syle' more out of frustration after the sectional sharpening when I didn't get the results I wanted, and was surprised at the quick edge I got from such a movement. I didn't think they were worth mentioning, and I won't standby such a quick passer-by result without looking into it more - but thanks for the reminder and reaffirmation of the idea, I'll definitely check it out. It makes me wonder though, if this 'style' is more effective with this stone why that would be the case, ie, why would some stones behave differently with a style of sharpening vs another...? :scratchhead:


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## panda (Dec 6, 2016)

Sounds like you got lemons, because ikarashi is pretty awesome stone.


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## Krassi (Dec 6, 2016)

Hiho!
Yep as mentioned in the other Ikarashi post.. i am amazed how fast they are.
behaves like a 1000-2000 Stone but is supposed to be finer than my Aizu.

Thats why i bought me another one )
could not resist


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