# JNat Beginners Guide to Buying: Stories of Success, Pitfalls, and Fails



## Xenif

This is the thread we have all been looking for!! 
A recent thread had us all talking about who and who not to get stones from, fake stamps, dubious stone sellers, and other pitfalls of the JNat world. 
I want to carry over the conversation here so we can openly talk about all our collective experiences, the good, the bad, the ugly.
I only started 6 months ago down the Jnat rabbit hole (and I love it), so the problem some of us newbs are having, is telling what is a good and what is a bad stone. 
I hope this thread can bring out the senior stoners to help the junior stoners.


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## PalmRoyale

First of all, I want to say I'm sorry for recommending ymmtnofm. I had no idea he's the same guy as Fujibato.

Now that that's out of the way, I was bidding on an Okudo suita this guy listed a few days ago. Unbeknownst to me a shipwright I know was also bidding on it and he won the auction. Talk about coincidence. He told me to test the stone when he has it and that's what I'll do. I hope for him it's a good one.


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## Panamapeet

PalmRoyale said:


> First of all, I want to say I'm sorry for recommending ymmtnofm. I had no idea he's the same guy as Fujibato.
> 
> Now that that's out of the way, I was bidding on an Okudo suita this guy listed a few days ago. Unbeknownst to me a shipwright I know was also bidding on it and he won the auction. Talk about coincidence. He told me to test the stone when he has it and that's what I'll do. I hope for him it's a good one.



This is a really useful story! Now I definitely know where and what to buy!


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## erezj

Xenif, thank you so much for this thread, I really hope the senior stoners come out.

I've been down the rabbit hole now for four lovely years, and I can say that still I understand nothing.

The little contributions I can share is buying from MetalMaster a $50 Aoto, saw at the time so many great feedbacks on Aoto stones.

MM was OK to deal with, eventually my first Jnat, the Aoto arrived, I immediately disliked it, it felt like polishing on sand.

Eventually, a year latter, and a few little koppa's I bough on the way, I went 'wiled' and bought a $250 Aoto from JNS.

First of all JNS is a pleasure to deal with and supper fast delivery, and then there is the stone.

I have no real way to know if its a 'good' stone, I can only compare it to the one I got from MM for $50, and yes, it was worth at least 5 times the stone from MM.

The obvious conclusion is to buy from a reputable source, JNS, JKI among the best, and of coarse from this forum,but I just cant afford the $900 for a Ohira Renge Suita from JNS, so I spend time searching Buyee and got about three stones from there, are they good? I dont really know, but I regularly use one of them with much joy, and use the another , an Uchi, if wand a pretty finish.

hope this helped a bit

ahh, by the way, the stone I least use, and which was relatively expensive was purchased from 330mate.


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## tgfencer

While there are many sources of natural stones, these are the easiest to access for Western markets and the ones you're most likely to hear mentioned on forums or by other jnat users.

The purpose of this list is to provide information on credible and dependable vendors of jnats, as well as warnings as about vendors who have, through the experiences of our members, come to be seen as questionable. What people then do with this information is up to them, folks are of course free to spend their money where they wish.


I will keep this list as up to date as possible as new information becomes available and validated.
*
Last Update: Oct 29, 2018

Trustworthy Stone Sellers: 
(Vendors who provide good information, high quality pictures, and can be corresponded with in a timely and transparent manner.)*

JNS
JKI
Alex Gilmore/JapanStone
Aframes
Japan Tool-Iida
Carbon Knife Co.
Bernal Cutlery
Tosho Knife Arts
Japan-Tool
Hitohiro
Watanabe


*Questionable Stone Sellers: 
(Vendors who provide questionable or misleading information, pictures that may not be detailed or useful in determining characteristics of the stone for sale, and cannot be corresponded with in a timely and/or trustworthy manner, if at all.)*

330mate (Aka. 130mate, Fujibato, umegahatatoishi_nakakatsu, Ymmtnofm, Mifuqwai, Dr_naka)- Low quality stones overall, though some have reported receiving good quality stones. Many stories of his being an unreliable vendor. There seems to be considerable risk involved with purchasing from this supplier, for every 'good' stone of his reported, there are dozens that are bad. You may get what you expect, you may not. Buy at your own risk.

YourTogiya (Aka. Togiya 180, Current ebay accounts: japanese_natural_whetstone and kossy_1123)- Blatant re-stamping of stones from other sellers and an unwillingness to explain/apologize when confronted with proof. Some debate as to the quality of his stock, with reports of both good and bad stones, but definitely no question as to his underhanded business practices.

(Please Note: So far as I can determine, the kossy1123 account on Yahoo Auctions has no affiliation with YourTogiya's ebay account kossy_123. Kossy1123 existed long before YourTogiya's ebay account and the name was likely stolen as a ploy. )


*Somewhere in Between/Hit and Miss:
*
Metalmaster- Out of date website, ebay, etc. Hard to communicate with, late or very delayed shipping on occasion, some customers have been forced to request refund due to goods failing to ship. However, good quality stock overall.

Japanese Auction Sites- As you would expect from an auction site (i.e. the ebay model) quality, honesty, and prices vary. Not recommended for beginners, those who want a sure thing, or those who just want to buy a good stone and be done with it. That said, steals can be found.





As a side note on Metalmasters: Personally, I've never had a problem with not receiving items and on the occasions they're late, its usually because MM is not very good about checking his sites when people buy stuff. That said, a grain of salt may be important here. He updates his website rarely (once or twice a year) and seems to be more and more inactive. Anecdotally, I once waited for some stones he told me he was going to restock soon, only to not hear from him until almost 2 years later.


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## refcast

I agree with the above.

If I were starting over, buying Jnats again, I would probably start with a medium fine finisher that is a little muddy. I would buy from either Japanese Knife Imports, Japanese Natural Stones, Watanabe, Aframestokyo, Iida Tool, Japan-Tool, or TheJapanStone. Each have their own preferences, expertise, extent and selection of inventory, and purpose for their stones. I feel all are reputable as long as you can navigate how they set up their process. I've personally used and like stones from TheJapanStone, Japanese Knife Imports, and Iida Tool.

Of course, there are other pathways, but it's best to start somewhere with a reputable seller who has a perspective and depth of experience that you agree with.

What we are avoiding are bad stones that scratch badly or cracked; all stones will leave a scratch pattern. Some stones cut slow but polish really well. Those polished edge may or may not be to your liking, as they will feel more refined without as much pointy 3D teeth and more of an convexed edge I guess.

For a beginner, mines and stone type names don't matter too much. Just pick one that matches your preferences below.

The criteria you consider are if it

1) is medium stone or a finishing stone (affects general range of speed and refinement)
2) is harder or softer (affects speed, longevity of the stone, cushion. Harder stones can chip or create little eraser-like folds of stone grit)
a) leaves inky black swarf, dark mud, or mostly mud (is a function whether the grit releases easily or cuts before losing the majority of its primary cutting ability)
3) cuts fast or slow (fast for convinience, slow for polishing or final edge for razors)
4) tends to leave scratches or polishes (faster usually has more visible scratches)
5) polishes to kasumi or to a mirror (the polish indicates some edge character)
6) leaves strong or weak contrast on the core and clad steel (purely aesthetic. If you don't like polish on the jigane too dark I guess you take it off with Barkeepers Friends. . . )

Each of these has a function for aesthetic or use.

I guess we could come up with a good price range for an intro stone. I guess we could have newcomers start on well-shaped and large-enough koppa stones, skinny stones, or those with cut corners as they are all cheaper due to aesthetics. Also, generic honyama are usually cheaper, because we cannot ascribe a prestigious name to boost the price. And we can avoid giant collector size stones, too, those with prestigious stamps, and those with fancy patterns. Finally, we can avoid harder razor or woodworking tool stones for the first stone someone is getting, because they might be too slow for most people, though I do like them. I guess $100-$300 could be a good starting point.

TheJapanTool has a lot of extensive writings about this. (*TheJapanStone, I meant. But Japan Tool has good stuff too).

Edit: I also forgot that the stone scratches on steel will appear smaller over a day of rest. I don't know why this happens. And kasumi is best viewed at an angle, and of course lighting changes a lot of stuff.


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## Marcelo Amaral

I agree with Todd, just would like to add Yamashita-san at Japan Tool.
Great person, speaks english very well and awesome knowledge about Jnats and more.


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## jacko9

I just started buying Japanese Natural Stones and I'm still lost about what is available. This posting I found on here helps a lot but, there is still a lot of information lacking for a beginner like me;

https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/2017/03/31/kanji-japanese-natural-stones/

I have two Jnats right now a rather large Aono Aoto and a Meara. I found out where the Aono Aoto was mined from according to the article above but, I have no information on the Meara other then its a polishing stone, rather hard and slightly muddy when using.

I'm hoping this thread will continue proving information to new users like me. Thanks


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## dwalker

One can do very well speculating on stones from Japanese auctions. They are not all winners but true ringers can be found there. My favorite gyuto finisher was $40 plus shipping. I wouldn't sell it for 10x that much. The downside is I've purchased stones two times that much that I have literally thrown in the trash. In all, it has worked out for me. YMMV.


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## XooMG

There's a dude on Instagram who takes junk Chinese stones and lacquers and stamps them so they look a little like Jnats. Don't think he sells often but best to be cautious around him.


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## Xenif

XooMG said:


> There's a dude on Instagram who takes junk Chinese stones and lacquers and stamps them so they look a little like Jnats. Don't think he sells often but best to be cautious around him.


They are absolutely [emoji90] it says so right on the stone! [emoji59]


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## Gjackson98

Xenif said:


> They are absolutely [emoji90] it says so right on the stone! [emoji59]



Photo please!


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## XooMG

Gjackson98 said:


> Photo please!







I asked an old Japanese dude and he said it might be an excellent paperweight.


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## PalmRoyale

So far I've never bought a bad stone on Yahoo Auctions but I had some help from someone on another forum to get me started. He told me what to look for and who to buy from. One of my best buys ever is this Ohira suita, paid just €98 for it and it's an amazing, very fast stone.


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## Gjackson98

XooMG said:


> I asked an old Japanese dude and he said it might be an excellent paperweight.



Lol this is probably going to be my laugh of the day.


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## Krakorak

Marcelo Amaral said:


> I agree with Todd, just would like to add Yamashita-san at Japan Tool.
> Great person, speaks english very well and awesome knowledge about Jnats and more.


 For some reason, nobody mentioned Shinichi Watanabe so far, although for instance some of his koppas might be a reasonable introduction into the JNAT world without spending too much...I personally have tried three of them and own two and all of them were really good quality stones...


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## daveb

I've got a couple stones second hand that originally came from Watanabe. I've not bought any directly from him but everything I've read is quite positive.


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## tgfencer

daveb said:


> I've got a couple stones second hand that originally came from Watanabe. I've not bought any directly from him but everything I've read is quite positive.



Updated the list. Thanks guys.


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## vinster

jacko9 said:


> I have two Jnats right now a rather large Aono Aoto and a Meara. I found out where the Aono Aoto was mined from according to the article above but, I have no information on the Meara other then its a polishing stone, rather hard and slightly muddy when using.



One of my first jnats was a "Meara" I got years ago from Ken Schwartz. I suspect that is a marketing name made up by Ken or his supplier, but I'm not 100% sure. The dimensions of these stones are somewhat unique, and similar to a run of "Kouzaki" stones sold on JNS a couple years back. Similar to the JNS description, mine is a hard and dense stone. It becomes aggressive cutting with the help of an atoma, otherwise it doesn't give much of itself. Mine isn't particularly fine, leaving a still visible fine scratch pattern.


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## toddnmd

I seem to recall seeing good things about Morihei in Tokyo, although they don't ship internationally.


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## Xenif

toddnmd said:


> I seem to recall seeing good things about Morihei in Tokyo, although they don't ship internationally.


Some of their products are available through Hitohira and associated stores.


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## vinster

Takeda used to supply good stones to various outlets as well as direct. Not sure if he still does.


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## erezj

PalmRoyale - Love that Ohira, You mentioned in your post that you got some good advice as for 'who to buy from', since this is THE Question, I was hoping you might share.

One more question, I've seen so much 'Motoyama' on the various sites, actually have one on the way...what is it? a mine? strata? generic word for polishing stone? bad translation by Google? Help here would be most appreciated.


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## Krakorak

erezj said:


> PalmRoyale - Love that Ohira, You mentioned in your post that you got some good advice as for 'who to buy from', since this is THE Question, I was hoping you might share.
> 
> One more question, I've seen so much 'Motoyama' on the various sites, actually have one on the way...what is it? a mine? strata? generic word for polishing stone? bad translation by Google? Help here would be most appreciated.


To my knowledge it has definitely nothing to do with a particular mine or strata, but is a rather general term like for instance "Honyama" - which has in the past been used "sensu stricto" for some stones from the Nakayama mine, but today its mostly used as a general term for any natural; so - to name an example - if a particular seller doesn't know the mine exactly, he calls the stone a "honyama"...But many unexperienced people tend to think its some particular mine, which is nonsense...


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## Krakorak

And if I should add some comments to the general topic - the best way when starting with naturals would be to borrow a few good quality stones from a friend and spend some time using them to understand the differences between naturals and synthetics well, try the feedback on different steels, try the edges and their retention you will get using various combinations...Its a big mistake to think you will understand naturals after spending 30 minutes with one or two pieces on one knife...its really a bit different world in many aspects! It would need to be really an exceptional stone with a phantastic feedback if that should be reality (haha, I had such a luck with my Ohira suita from JNS, which wasn't the first, but if I remember correctly my third natural I have ever tried and I immediately feeled that its something special...and it was THE stone which brought several friends of mine to naturals - in this respect its also good to mention that it, in my opinion, doesn't make much sense to go for naturals without having enough experience with reasonable synthetics)...

And if you don't have such a luck and chance to borrow anything, then its definitely better to start with something which is verified - i.e. with something from a reputable seller, those Watanabe koppas might be a good example for this, they don't make you a huge hole into your wallet like Maksim's stones (which are in my opinion overprized in most cases, although having very good quality) and then you can go for something bigger after already having some experience what you want...And its generally also better to start with softer stones than get something super, super hard...I know several examples of people which didn't do that and were completely disgusted!

And I should also mention that a great option is buying from some people here - if you will buy from let's say Otto aka Badgertooth or Todd aka tgfencer or some other people, you will ever get that what was promised and a great stone; they have no problem to spend enough time to explain you the details of a particular stone...and if it shouldn't be that what you are looking for (or they would recognize you are a beginner with zero experience who absolutely doesn't know what he wants, except of "he urgently needs a JNAT"), they would rather discourage you from it and recommend you something else...Simply they are people which don't want to earn money at any costs and prefer to be 100% objective...which is super important in this business...

And as regards my experience with Watanabe stones - I have tried about 15 pieces from him and except of one which has some slight issues all of them were good or very good quality and I can't complain...But his prices are definitely not the lowest ones, all the more that he currently doesn't want to put discounts which he put about 2 years ago when I bought most of my stones from him...


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## tgfencer

As always, I feel like its worth reiterating the common disclaimer with Japanese natural stones.* They will not make you a better sharpener or a more skillful polisher.* Natural stones are often talked about with an air of mysticism or veneration by those who use them, but ultimately they are simply a set of tools that provide a different set of attributes to synthetic stones, some of which won't be fully utilized or understood until the user has developed the necessary skill levels. Don't be discouraged if they don't magically transform you into a sharpening/polishing master, but equally, realize that jnats will certainly provide you a unique platform to grow and the rewards as you develop to new levels will be well worth the time, expense, and frustration.


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## PalmRoyale

erezj said:


> PalmRoyale - Love that Ohira, You mentioned in your post that you got some good advice as for 'who to buy from', since this is THE Question, I was hoping you might share.


kossy1123, earth0walk, yuuyab18c, nekochandaimaoo and sharl237jinsuke are the main ones. My Ohira came from sharl but he hasn't been active for quite some time. The are some other good sellers who don't list their stones in the whetstone category. I'll leave it up to you to find out where they list them.

One more piece of advice for the newbs. If you want a coticule I'd avoid Ardennes Coticule. I bought a coti from Watanabe but it was too hard for my taste. The guys at Ardennes Coticule told me to send them the stone and that I could trade it in for something suited to my taste. They received my coti 4 weeks ago and communication has been truly miserable. There's hasn't been a single decent response to my e-mails. I finally contacted them through facebook messenger because I'm done with it. I told them I want my stone back and that I'll sell it on a Dutch auction site. No response. It hasn't always been like this. I've bought many stones from them in the past and it went perfectly every time. I don't know what happened to them.


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## Krakorak

tgfencer said:


> As always, I feel like its worth reiterating the common disclaimer with Japanese natural stones.* They will not make you a better sharpener or a more skillful polisher.* Natural stones are often talked about with an air of mysticism or veneration by those who use them, but ultimately they are simply a set of tools that provide a different set of attributes to synthetic stones, some of which won't be fully utilized or understood until the user has developed the necessary skill levels. Don't be discouraged if they don't magically transform you into a sharpening/polishing master, but equally, realize that jnats will certainly provide you a unique platform to grow and the rewards as you develop to new levels will be well worth the time, expense, and frustration.


Completely agree...Its a bit similar to honyaki knives - there are many people who believe a honyaki must be something completely mystic what will cut 100% effortlessly by itself and stay sharp forever...just because its honyaki...Which, of course, is nonsense as well...And it should be also mentioned that most of the stone nuts use naturals from 90% for polishing "games" and that they provide a good edge as well is rather a by-product...what is something what is also quite often hard to understand for many people, for instance in the Czech community where good J-knives which would be worth polishing on a good JNAT are a very rare phenomenon, those people wouldn't understand at all why to pay several hundreds USD for a natural...and if, they would expect it must provide a completely phenomenal edge which will stay forever...


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## PalmRoyale

Ardennes Coticule now says they can't find the stone I sent them. Well, that's not my freaking problem. They better do everything they can to get it back to me or I'm taking legal action. They went from a company I enjoyed doing business with to a bunch of frauds. How low they have sunk.


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## Seqmt

PalmRoyale said:


> Ardennes Coticule now says they can't find the stone I sent them. Well, that's not my freaking problem. They better do everything they can to get it back to me or I'm taking legal action. They went from a company I enjoyed doing business with to a bunch of frauds. How low they have sunk.



That's very unfortunate. I hope you get a satisfactory resolution. Keep us all updated!


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## jacko9

@PalmRoyale - do you have a shipping tracking number to prove that they received your stone? I would think that any respectable business would respond to proof of receiving that stone from you. Good luck and hope that you get this matter resolved to your satisfaction.


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## PalmRoyale

I have an update, received it just now on facebook messenger. A La Dressante bout 10 was sent to me today. There has been no decent response to any of my e-mails but apparently they did read them. 4 weeks of almost total radio silence and out of the blue they sent a stone to me.


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## tgfencer

Update on YourTogiya's seller profiles has been made to the list. It seems he has new ebay accounts in operation, one of which was likely stolen to mimic a well-known seller on Yahoo Auctions. (Yourtogiya=kossy_123, while the unrelated auctions seller is kossy1123).

I was discussing this exact possibility with Vinster when I stumbled upon this reddit thread, which mirrored our suspicions.

https://www.reddit.com/r/sharpening/comments/9f6bf7/ebay_scam_fake_hatahosi_and_nakayama_whetstone/


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## PalmRoyale

A bit more info on 330mate. I was told that the stones he sells in his Kyoto store are actually quite good since he can't afford to make an enemy out of the locals. If you're a foreign buyer, he will heck you over without giving it a second thought.


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## catalystman80

Cool thread.

I've been on the naturals train for only about three months now, but have spent more money on sharpening tools in the past three months than I had during the previous 8 years of free hand sharpening LOL.

I was lucky to have a great member from this forum reach out to me, answer bunch of my newbie questions, allow me to buy one of his stones, and also loan me a few of his stones to learn on!. Also many here replied to my very first post here about JNATs. So thank you!

I've so far obtained 6 JNATS, and I've recently acquired a few Belgian Coticules and an Escher (I started out mainly focusing on stones for knife sharpening, but also expanded the search for straight razor honing). I do want to eventually add a JNAT or two in the long run, but they will be quite pricey (and I don't necessarily need them functionally), so I'm "saving" for them in the future years  It's been a great ride (and an expensive one, rivaling the days I was obsessed with Leicas LOL) so far. I just love sitting down with a stone whenever I have an hour or two, and just working various edges off of it. The uniqueness of each stone from the smell, texture, hardness, feedback, fineness, etc are all very intoxicating. Just on the stones I have now, I know I will have many years of learning and enjoyment. I don’t necessarily think they are better or worse than synthetics, but different in very wonderful ways. Part of my main driver was to get the natural Kasumi finish, so I’ve definitely benefited from the recent acquisitions, but I also love the variation in the type of edges I get. It’s like developing a relationship with each stone.

During the past three months, here are the related vendors (so not all for JNAT purchases, but they sell natural stones) that I had great experiences with:
- Maksim from JNS (of course everyone knows him)
- So Yamashita from Japan-Tool (wealth of knowledge about JNATs)
- Jonathan from JKI - haven't bought a JNAT from Jon, but I've bought knives and interacted with him in the past, a stand up guy for sure.
- Jarrod from The Superior Shave - got my Coticule from him, very knowledgeable about Coti's and a funny guy a in a quirky way  Has some interesting/informative videos the ytube.
- Aframestokyo - was a little suspicious when a question I sent over IG was never answered (perhaps he prefers e-mails....not sure), but recently bought a 80k Kanayama strop from the webstore, and it was shipped right away.

Couple of not so great experiences (or tips):
- metalmasterjp on ebay. Though it wasn't for a natural stone (wanted to get some new Atomas). I bought some, and no shipment for over a month. Sent multiple notes and no answer, so got a refund through ebay. From what I read in the past, he seems to have a good reputation, but must not be checking (or unable to) his e-mail account these days.
- I also tried to buy a stone off the Watanabe website using their “Add to cart” page. It also says on that page please wait 5 days for the reply, and don’t send emails. I’ve been waiting over a month now. Someone on this forum advised I contact by email. But I ended up buying a similar stone from someone else recently, so I didn’t bother. It seems like he has a great reputation, so for others, I would recommend sending an email instead.


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## jacko9

I just purchased a Nakiri from Watanabe and placed it in the cart and didn't hear anything right away. Then I re-read the product page and noted that he asked how you intended to pay so I sent him an email indicating that I would pay with PayPal and received a total quote including shipping rates almost immediately. I guess I should have read the product page more carefully.


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## skiajl6297

Some JNat observations by a non-expert, so take this with a grain of salt.

Seal your natural stones, practice with them by sharpening real knives that will be used to actually cut real food, and repeat! I've always had good luck with clear nail polish. 

WRITE DOWN YOUR EXPERIENCES! Document what works, and what doesn't work FOR YOU in sharpening, and then again in the finish. What you like about a stone, and what you do NOT like about a stone. Does the finish look like butt, but the edge holds forever? Does the finish look epic kasumi perfection, and then completely fail when in use? These are hugely important considerations that can only be gleaned by time and use of your actual knives, and your actual stones. No website or human will tell you with absolute certainty how a specific stone will work with the knife in your hands. Sure you can estimate grit, but that is a small part of the experience.

Research, reading, practice are your friends. Ask to borrow a stone or two from a trusted member. And don't be like me and practice sharpening only on a "practice knife". Learn to sharpen your best knives. Embrace scratches and scuffs - not a single polisher or sharpener who actually uses their tools has a perfectly polished tool after using it, and certainly not when learning to sharpen! In so doing, you will learn how to make a knife look like new on your own. 

Also understand your goals. Are you into JNats for aesthetics? Or are you into pure performance? Or both? Do you have time to exclusively use JNats, or are you rushing to work with no free time to spare? I can tell you that if I was a culinary pro, I would go synthetic all day, every day! Why? Pure and simple efficiency.

And as echoed elsewhere in this post - jnats arent magic. Forgive the crappy analogy, but to me synthetic sharpening is like grabbing takeout McDonalds, whereas a nice JNat is like a multi course meal at a Michelin starred restaurant. Both restaurants are generally effective at filling your belly. Both types of stones will get a knife screaming sharp. But sometimes you want fast and casual to get the job done, and sometimes you want to scratch that artistic itch of seeing just how pretty/delicious you can make something by diving deep. Both approaches have a value, and not at one anothers' expense.

For your info, I am rocking the following setup (pun intended)

JKI 800, 400 synths - bevel set, reset
JKI 1k, 6k diamond combo synths - final finish from lower grits when needed, routinely used for quick 5min touch ups. Can stop here comfortably for an awesome edge.
Red Aoto from JNS - often the first step after the above synths (up to 1K - on knives I want to go the JNat route with rather than finish at 6k diamond)
Aiwaatani from JNS - used often for polishing after the red aoto - slightly finer finish, slicker mud for certain, polishes out scratches great.
Okudo Suita from KKF member (bought used) - incredible finisher after any prior finish - 1k diamond, 6k diamond, aoto, or aiwaatani. Classic Okudo Suita.
Various unnamed nagura/fingerstones (various sources) - this is the secret sauce. Naguras allow you to polish and play with finishes without buying a $2000 rock. I have a number of them, all purchased from JNS or from members here/elsewhere. All stones work differently, finger stones are no exception. But a small flake of Uchigomori is a hell of a lot cheaper than a brick.
Glad to answer any questions if anyone has them. Good luck - JNats are awesome!


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## Krakorak

catalystman80 said:


> Cool thread.
> 
> I've been on the naturals train for only about three months now, but have spent more money on sharpening tools in the past three months than I had during the previous 8 years of free hand sharpening LOL.
> 
> I was lucky to have a great member from this forum reach out to me, answer bunch of my newbie questions, allow me to buy one of his stones, and also loan me a few of his stones to learn on!. Also many here replied to my very first post here about JNATs. So thank you!
> 
> I've so far obtained 6 JNATS, and I've recently acquired a few Belgian Coticules and an Escher (I started out mainly focusing on stones for knife sharpening, but also expanded the search for straight razor honing). I do want to eventually add a JNAT or two in the long run, but they will be quite pricey (and I don't necessarily need them functionally), so I'm "saving" for them in the future years  It's been a great ride (and an expensive one, rivaling the days I was obsessed with Leicas LOL) so far. I just love sitting down with a stone whenever I have an hour or two, and just working various edges off of it. The uniqueness of each stone from the smell, texture, hardness, feedback, fineness, etc are all very intoxicating. Just on the stones I have now, I know I will have many years of learning and enjoyment. I don’t necessarily think they are better or worse than synthetics, but different in very wonderful ways. Part of my main driver was to get the natural Kasumi finish, so I’ve definitely benefited from the recent acquisitions, but I also love the variation in the type of edges I get. It’s like developing a relationship with each stone.
> 
> During the past three months, here are the related vendors (so not all for JNAT purchases, but they sell natural stones) that I had great experiences with:
> - Maksim from JNS (of course everyone knows him)
> - So Yamashita from Japan-Tool (wealth of knowledge about JNATs)
> - Jonathan from JKI - haven't bought a JNAT from Jon, but I've bought knives and interacted with him in the past, a stand up guy for sure.
> - Jarrod from The Superior Shave - got my Coticule from him, very knowledgeable about Coti's and a funny guy a in a quirky way  Has some interesting/informative videos the ytube.
> - Aframestokyo - was a little suspicious when a question I sent over IG was never answered (perhaps he prefers e-mails....not sure), but recently bought a 80k Kanayama strop from the webstore, and it was shipped right away.
> 
> Couple of not so great experiences (or tips):
> - metalmasterjp on ebay. Though it wasn't for a natural stone (wanted to get some new Atomas). I bought some, and no shipment for over a month. Sent multiple notes and no answer, so got a refund through ebay. From what I read in the past, he seems to have a good reputation, but must not be checking (or unable to) his e-mail account these days.
> - I also tried to buy a stone off the Watanabe website using their “Add to cart” page. It also says on that page please wait 5 days for the reply, and don’t send emails. I’ve been waiting over a month now. Someone on this forum advised I contact by email. But I ended up buying a similar stone from someone else recently, so I didn’t bother. It seems like he has a great reputation, so for others, I would recommend sending an email instead.



As for Watanabe - he generally replies very, very quickly on emails, almost ever the same day and mostly its possible to change with him even several emails per day, have never had the slightest negative experience with him as regards communication...


----------



## valgard

Krakorak said:


> As for Watanabe - he generally replies very, very quickly on emails, almost ever the same day and mostly its possible to change with him even several emails per day, have never had the slightest negative experience with him as regards communication...


This seems to be changing a bit lately. My last two emails he took several days to answer but eventually got back to me.


----------



## Xenif

Thank You for all those who have contributed so far to this thread, heres a link to recent link useful for jnat
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/index.php?threads/38706/


----------



## toddnmd

valgard said:


> This seems to be changing a bit lately. My last two emails he took several days to answer but eventually got back to me.



Last month or so he had a message on website that he had a lot of work currently, and might take up to five days to respond. 
Earlier this week, I ordered a stone and his replies were pretty prompt, which is what I’ve typically experienced with him.


----------



## childermass

Just to add something new (usually I buy from Watanabe, Aframes or here):
I bought a few stones from ebay seller 'barber_san' recently. All stones were pretty nice, plus he answers all questions very quickly.
Most of the stuff he carries is razor related, so his stones tend to be on the harder side, but all of the three I bought are suitable for knives as well.


----------



## PalmRoyale

PalmRoyale said:


> I was bidding on an Okudo suita this guy listed a few days ago. Unbeknownst to me a shipwright I know was also bidding on it and he won the auction. Talk about coincidence. He told me to test the stone when he has it and that's what I'll do. I hope for him it's a good one.



The shipwright who was bidding on an Okudo habutae suita picked it up this morning so I went over to him to give it a go as well. He hates the stone, he thinks it's too hard and smooth, even when I made a slurry on it with my Atoma 400 (it's the first jnat he bought). I on the other hand absolutely love this Okudo so I told him I'll buy it from for the amount he won it. It's a very smooth and soft feeling stone and quite fast with a diamond slurry. It finishes in the 10.000 range and puts a wicked edge on my chisels. Absolutely wonderful stone so I think he got lucky with ymmtnofm.


----------



## andur

I'd just like to add my comment about 330mate.
I've bought a dozen stones and knives from him since 2012 (including fully custom knives that took some months to complete and stones selected for specific purposes), never had a bad deal. I would recommend him in a heartbeat, especially for cheaper stones (I haven't bought expensive ones form him). He doesn't speak a word of english so bear that in mind! Maybe a lot of troubles people seem to have are due to language? This is Carter making a documentary of him:


----------



## PalmRoyale

I was told 100mate is umbrella stone company and that 330mate, ymmtnofm and the others are all members of the 100mate group. Don't know if it's true. As for the Okudo from ymmtnofm I have now, well, it's one of the best tool stones I've ever used and I've tested quite a lot. It's quite hard so it can't do without a diamond slurry but because it's so hard it's super easy to keep the bevel and back flat. And the edge is just so good. The one thing that makes it even better for me is that's I didn't have to pay a dime in shipping or VAT, that was all for the shipwright who I bought it from. I know some people have bought duds so I'm still very hesitant to recommend them to someone else.


----------



## banjo1071

Kossy from Yahoon has usually very good stuff. Also maruyo4476 carries crazy, unsual stuff....


----------



## PalmRoyale

The guy I bought the Okudo habutae suita from has second thoughts, he told me he wants it back. I asked him several times if he's sure he really wants to sell it to me and he said yes every time. Tough luck for him because I'm keeping it. It's too good of a stone to let it go again.


----------



## Panamapeet

PalmRoyale said:


> The guy I bought the Okudo habutae suita from has second thoughts, he told me he wants it back. I asked him several times if he's sure he really wants to sell it to me and he said yes every time. Tough luck for him because I'm keeping it. It's too good of a stone to let it go again.



Thank you for this helpful reply


----------



## tgfencer

PalmRoyale said:


> I was told 100mate is umbrella stone company and that 330mate, ymmtnofm and the others are all members of the 100mate group. Don't know if it's true. As for the Okudo from ymmtnofm I have now, well, it's one of the best tool stones I've ever used and I've tested quite a lot. It's quite hard so it can't do without a diamond slurry but because it's so hard it's super easy to keep the bevel and back flat. And the edge is just so good. The one thing that makes it even better for me is that's I didn't have to pay a dime in shipping or VAT, that was all for the shipwright who I bought it from. I know some people have bought duds so I'm still very hesitant to recommend them to someone else.



Thanks for the update, ancedotal information can be useful. I'm truly happy its worked out for you.

There seems to be little doubt that at least some of 330mate and Co's stones are good, but there is also no doubt that some are bad. That speaks of a lack of dependability, at the very least, which is enough in and of itself in my opinion to put him under the questionable vendors heading in the list of my earlier post. I cannot speak to the Carter video that was posted, as its the first time I've seen it.

Just like I wouldn't suggest someone buy a knife from a smith who sometimes sells poorly heat-treated, forged, or profiled knives, I would not suggest someone buy whetstones from a vendor who sells poor quality stones, even if some others might be good.


----------



## Chef Doom

Don't waste you're money on natural coarse stones.


----------



## PalmRoyale

tgfencer said:


> There seems to be little doubt that at least some of 330mate and Co's stones are good, but there is also no doubt that some are bad. That speaks of a lack of dependability, at the very least, which is enough in and of itself in my opinion to put him under the questionable vendors heading in the list of my earlier post.


The one I have is outstanding but other stones might be completely useless. There's no way of knowing so I won't recommend them to someone else.


----------



## tgfencer

PalmRoyale said:


> The one I have is outstanding but other stones might be completely useless. There's no way of knowing so I won't recommend them to someone else.



Yup! I was agreeing with you, though I apologize if it came across as a directed criticism.


----------



## Krassi

Hi!

Well i have been hunting fo Jnats for more than 3 years now and actually checked those crazy yahoo auctions since at least 2 years now.
There is really a lot of stuff getting sold and all the seller mentioned are thrusted sellers i also got many stones from.

Of course can you be sure on one thing.. the professional sellers know what they are selling and its value and a sick stone is also recognized by collectors and other people.
some stones are 100% sure fire and forget good Suitas or else..

for me it was the trill to by something with a ****** description, crappy photos that could have been shot with a mikrowave and epic descriptions like "old barer stone".. 
Well you can score winners or .. well not actual losers but ok stones.

My best stones are those wich went under the radar from most other people and turn out to be incredible.. Like my 3 Kilo 250x120x40 Okudo Shiro Suita Kuro Renge or my Perfekt Ohira Shiro Suita Aka Renge (aka "the one everybody wants")

It became a habit for me to collect stones.. espially the thrill when you are sitting at german customs and the people all know you as "the stone maniac" and you open the parcel and its a killer stone... and the guy at customs thinks you are total brainwrecked ) .. because you look at a stone and are happy like it was a goldbar...


Also as chef doom mentioned and also watanabe told me from the begining:
"Don't waste you're money on natural coarse stones."

Well my only bad luck was with a 9 kilo Death star size Stone that i thought could be an Okudo Kuro renge Shiro suita.. well its a 1k course and had funky 180 euros shipping ) but you can grind dathstars on it.. two at once )

With 330mate i also had luck to score a huge okudo shiro suita that turned out to be excellent.One stone i would never sell but i got it on ebay wich seems to bee the junkjard place for the stoneseller where they sell their crap. 


With those auctions its best if you spot something that is 100% sure something that you can recognize and thaen its form one of the mentioned vendors..
But it still is a blind buy! You have to thrust your guts and that the seller sells you what you think.. so dondt forget that.. But still its the most used online platfrom in japan for this and a professional online seller wondt risk his rating for some fast bucks and ripping of someone with crap.

Seeya, daniel! 
And Yeah!! i have been dead for a while here.. sorry for my absence!


----------



## K813zra

Meh, I have not really had any issues with junk stones but I tend to buy from only a few sources (already listed) and the stones are tested. That is not to say that I have not ended up with stones that I hated, because I have, but that is not the same as them being junk. They simply did not fit my needs. Many knives are that way as well. 

Example of a stone that I do not love is a Yaginoshima Suita. Freaky hard, harder than the other two that I had used by a fair margin. Slow too. But it did cut. What it did well was polish the edge and quite well. See, for me that was the issue. I like my edges to feel refined yet have loads of bite. Almost as if a mix of grits ranging from 2k to 8k in the same stone. Such a hard fine stone will not do this for me. On the flip side, one of my favorite finishers is a overly soft Takashima (Lv2 or softer) that I picked up for a few dollars. Not super muddy on narrow bevels but a mud factory on wide bevels. Wonderful feedback and the edge left is refined but with tons and tones of bite. Almost as if I get the polish of about a 6(ish)k synthetic with the bite of a 2-3k. Love it to death.  I have a similar stone that is a Hideriyama and yet, I have a love-hate relationship with that stone. I think it is because the Hideri is not quite as "clean" a stone.

Moving on, I am one of those weirdos who actually likes coarser natural stones. I love my super soft Amakusa (melts like butter under a hot ear of corn) for setting bevels. For speed and aggression it falls between my Gesshin 400 and Shapton Pro 1k but it feels great in use, to me. So, yeah, I guess we all have different experiences etc. My Omura, not so much. Either of them. Wakayama (not really an Omura) and Kyushu. Neither are what I consider aggressive enough in metal removal for how coarse their scratch pattern is. However, they make good transition stones from synthetics to naturals on cladding, if that is your thing.

Though, my most successful purchases have probably been my Monzen-to and Aono aoto. These two stones, my renditions at least, are fairly similar in many ways yet very different. I am not sure that I could pick one over the other as a "keeper" which is why I still have both. Neither stone is overly fine nor overly aggressive. Both fall in that 2-4k range, depending on how you use them and I find that I can work that entire spectrum. The Monzen-to being slightly coarser or rather leaving an edge that is more aggressive and the Aono slightly finer or leaving an edge that seems more "smooth". However, the Monzen is hands down the winner when it comes to cosmetic finishes on a wide/singe bevel. Though it does leave some coarse scratches it give that foggy finish and one that is dark at that. The Aono has some fog but is light and patchy. It polishes better, I suppose you could say but still in the mid grit range, for me. 

My experience is that I have gone through a few dozen stones before my interest in finding that perfect stone has started to wane and excepting that I need a few to get me by. Along this journey I have learned that I am fairly safe, in terms of getting a working stone, so long as I buy from a reputable seller who tests their stones and communicates well. Sometimes a heavily used stone from a forum member is the way to go and particularly if it has been tried by more than one of the heavyweights here so that you can see different takes of the same stone. I have also learned that while generalities are to be taken with a grain of salt much of the time, sometimes they hold validity while other times they hold none, at least for me. In this case I feel that it is based off of my taste and weighed against the opinion of the user. If their taste matches mine, the generality holds more weight for my situation otherwise, not so much. But the main thing that I have learned is to read, watch, follow etc many people on this forum and gauge their reaction to particular stones, types, vendors, technique and so much more before I myself act. 

Now, what has all of that taught me? Well, where to acquire a stone that won't be junk from the start. I still had to develop my own preferences and you simply can not do that without trying stones. But with time you can decide which stones you are more likely to enjoy, by description, and that is better than shooting in the dark 100% of the time.

As for failing, or succeeding at using a particular stone, well, that is an entirely different story. Some stones I have detested at the beginning of my search and I tossed them in a drawer only to come back to them and love them. Not only did I have to learn how to use that particular stone before passing judgement but I had to learn how to use natural stones in general and develop a preference or at least an understanding of stones even those that I do not like before I could properly pass judgement on a stone. Rather to say, I had to learn to crawl before I could walk. That does not always end in me successfully using a stone I have cast aside when I first come back to it but it has allowed me a better understanding of each individual stone and that is how I now approach all stones, as individual examples. And for me that was a significant growth. 

Also, taking a rest from naturals to re-solidify my skills on synthetics really helped as well. 

Anyway, that is my journey, in a nutshell, so far. With loads of stones and some frustration left out of the picture (skill related rather than the fault of the stone). I think it, at least for me, is a very personal thing and I am not sure if such experiences are helpful to others in anyway but, there it is.


----------



## Migraine

As a JNAT beginner with only 1 stone, buying something from a trusted seller here on B/S/T felt by far the best way to go about things.


----------



## Xenif

See a lot of interest in Jnats lately, so I'm gonna bump this thread, lots of good info already, big thank you for all those that shared their info/thoughts/experiences

Remember this thread is all about senior stoners helping out the junior stoners


----------



## Gloom

Thank you for bumping this thread Xenif! As a newcomer to JNATs and also fairly new to free hand sharpening the information here is super helpful. The community here is amazing and has really helped tremendously when it comes to learning about things. I ended up going the all in route and bought some amazing stones that will last a lifetime. Figured it was the way to go as I've heard from many that quality stones are becoming harder to come across and getting very expensive. Now the fun part is learning how each one behaves and trying to resist buying every pretty looking stone I see.


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## lemeneid

eBay is a total crapshoot. A friend of mine got a totally awesome Ohira Suita for $250 whilst I got a totally craptacular Tomae. 

I started my Jnat journey by buying stones from Otto here. And he’s delivered on what I wanted so far. An Aizu which really upped my sharpening game and a super hard, super fine Narutaki Asagi which would make any sword polisher gasp in awe. 

I’ve never achieved such nice edges with synths before. But I definitely agree with others, hard jnats really require you to have good fundamentals on synths first before reaping the rewards. So before jumping to nats, make sure your basics are great. Also, maybe try a softer stone first as they can be a little more forgiving and easy to work with.

I’m still a newbie though, so the learning journey will be long and tough


----------



## Hanmak17

skiajl6297 said:


> Various unnamed nagura/fingerstones (various sources) - this is the secret sauce. Naguras allow you to polish and play with finishes without buying a $2000 rock. I have a number of them, all purchased from JNS or from members here/elsewhere. All stones work differently, finger stones are no exception. But a small flake of Uchigomori is a hell of a lot cheaper than a brick.


This particular point is sage advice. In retrospect, I wish that I had started exploring with Nagura's & fingerstones vs full size stones. I would likely have accumulated fewer stones have built a bigger cache of shards. Don't get me wrong I love the collection of stones I have accumulated, but I spent a rediculous amounts of money to accumulate collectors items vs practical tools IMO. Figured if I bought the best stones I could find, I would get to the learning faster. Turns out I was wrong (as tgfencer said), until you know how to use em, they are door stops from a quality and usefulness perspective. 

One of the other things, I have realized over time, is that while I can put a ridiculously sharp edge (polished) on a knife, I actually prefer the toothier edge of synths. I do have a Shobudani Suita that I purchased from Craig at Carbonknifeco a while back which is a great polisher, but particularly useful for stropping or setting a micro-bevel. Probably a fabulous razor stone as well. Have never been able to figure out why that stone in particular leaves such a fine edge, it just does. 

Last thing I would say, given the apparent slow down in stone sales on the NK-BST, there appears to be a buyers market developing in Jnats. I suspect that people are going to find some really nice stones for well below the cost they were purchased for coming up this year. Hell I may "give away" a few of the gems I picked up sometime in the future.


----------



## nevin

XooMG said:


> There's a dude on Instagram who takes junk Chinese stones and lacquers and stamps them so they look a little like Jnats. Don't think he sells often but best to be cautious around him.



He sell the best junk!


----------



## Trouthead

This is just the kind of info I have been looking for. Figure a JNAT stone will take me 6 months to buy, and I still might not get what I hoped for.


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## tgfencer

The ebay seller  nonosandesu  was brought to my attention. He is offering pictured stones taken straight off Morihei's website. As Morihei does not ship internationally and instead works through recognized vendors, it's unclear whether this seller is offering a service or if he whether he has any relationship with the shop. I've contacted him so we'll see what his explanation is, but in the meantime, take this as a word of warning. 

Below are a few examples, but there are more. 

Ex 1:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-N...336160?hash=item443903f2a0:g:Tx4AAOSwtLxckSbe

http://www.morihei.co.jp/?pid=131748131

Ex 2:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-N...rentrq:bb4fdb741690abc229ae21a0fffedf17|iid:3

http://www.morihei.co.jp/?pid=140841358


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## Bert2368

First stone (Ex 1):

The "original" Japanese web site offer is 62,640 yen = about US $560?

"New" ebay offer is "buy it now" for US $964

-------------

Second stone (Ex 2):

The "original" Japanese web site offer is 34,560 yen = about US $310?

"New" ebay offer is "buy it now" for US $550

----------

I will now go and make some popcorn.


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## nevrknow

Great find TG


----------



## lemeneid




----------



## foody518

For some of his offerings he's setting scalper prices and possibly for stones he does not currently even possess


----------



## Alwayzbakin

Krakorak said:


> And if I should add some comments to the general topic - the best way when starting with naturals would be to borrow a few good quality stones from a friend and spend some time using them to understand the differences between naturals and synthetics well, try the feedback on different steels, try the edges and their retention you will get using various combinations...Its a big mistake to think you will understand naturals after spending 30 minutes with one or two pieces on one knife...its really a bit different world in many aspects! It would need to be really an exceptional stone with a phantastic feedback if that should be reality (haha, I had such a luck with my Ohira suita from JNS, which wasn't the first, but if I remember correctly my third natural I have ever tried and I immediately feeled that its something special...and it was THE stone which brought several friends of mine to naturals - in this respect its also good to mention that it, in my opinion, doesn't make much sense to go for naturals without having enough experience with reasonable synthetics)...
> 
> And if you don't have such a luck and chance to borrow anything, then its definitely better to start with something which is verified - i.e. with something from a reputable seller, those Watanabe koppas might be a good example for this, they don't make you a huge hole into your wallet like Maksim's stones (which are in my opinion overprized in most cases, although having very good quality) and then you can go for something bigger after already having some experience what you want...And its generally also better to start with softer stones than get something super, super hard...I know several examples of people which didn't do that and were completely disgusted!
> 
> And I should also mention that a great option is buying from some people here - if you will buy from let's say Otto aka Badgertooth or Todd aka tgfencer or some other people, you will ever get that what was promised and a great stone; they have no problem to spend enough time to explain you the details of a particular stone...and if it shouldn't be that what you are looking for (or they would recognize you are a beginner with zero experience who absolutely doesn't know what he wants, except of "he urgently needs a JNAT"), they would rather discourage you from it and recommend you something else...Simply they are people which don't want to earn money at any costs and prefer to be 100% objective...which is super important in this business...
> 
> And as regards my experience with Watanabe stones - I have tried about 15 pieces from him and except of one which has some slight issues all of them were good or very good quality and I can't complain...But his prices are definitely not the lowest ones, all the more that he currently doesn't want to put discounts which he put about 2 years ago when I bought most of my stones from him...



I had sent Sin a few emails asking for shipping quotes and asking a couple of times to buy a stone. Had read this thread and figured he was to busy to reply. I discovered later he had in fact responded promptly each time and they all went to my junk folder.

EDIT: I had meant to reply to catalystmans and others’ comments about not hearing back from Watanabe... must have gotten lost by the time I had read through the whole thread


----------



## childermass

Found a seller on ebay I hadn’t encountered before: https://ebay.at/usr/honing_guide

Browsing his listings I found one for an Iyoto stone:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.at/ulk/itm/264285729660

Reading the description it was kind of familiar. Found the exact same words on Keith Johnson‘s page:
http://www.tomonagura.com/jnats/jnat-gallery/ara-to--/striped-iyoto.html

I don’t know what to think about this. I tried to find other 'copied' text passages too, but Keith‘s site is just too full of stones.
He is selling mostly stones suitable for razors, so it might not be a real issue here but I thought I’d share it anyway.


----------



## tgfencer

childermass said:


> Found a seller on ebay I hadn’t encountered before: https://ebay.at/usr/honing_guide



99.9% sure its this same guy below. If you go and look at the old sales of the honing_guide user, they take you to items sold by the kossy_1123 account.

_YourTogiya (Aka. Togiya 180, Current ebay accounts: japanese_natural_whetstone and kossy_1123)- Blatant re-stamping of stones from other sellers and an unwillingness to explain/apologize when confronted with proof. Some debate as to the quality of his stock, with reports of both good and bad stones, but definitely no question as to his underhanded business practices._


----------



## Ivan Hersh

It's hard to understand why a company like Ardennes Coticule would not try very hard, to handle this problem with for customer who has bought from them many times.


----------



## loopback

Having bought multiple stones from Watanabe, I can confirm that he is responsive and his product is of high quality. I have also visited Bernal Cutlery, and he was kind enough to let me try multiple stones to find one that felt the best to me. If you live near one of these shops, I encourage you to go in and see if they are willing to let you try some of their in-store stones to get a feel for the different options.


----------



## Chef Doom

Biggest mistake I made was getting a coarse jnat. Total wast of time and money. 

Best thing I DID do was to keep costs as low as possible with two finishing stones and to not covete every stone type on the market.

I have been much more conservative with my stone purchases vs my knife purchases. I let my needs drive my wants.


----------



## Ivan Hersh

Being new to the using of Japanese water stones, i have found by buying from Amazon i have over a Month to return a stone i buy with no questions about why.

To me this gives me protection and so far it has worked very well for me, i understand others have had good luck buying from unknown sellers and if one is just risking from $20 to $50 US dollars, and if the item does not arrive or is just a worthless brick little is lost, in time i also might give it a try but i will never use PayPal.


----------



## stringer

olivia9467
I would like to add this name to the shady dealer list. They only have a couple stones listed. They sent me a "special offer" on one I had been watching. The wording seemed somehow familiar. I did a Google search and sure enough. The copy had been lifted from JNS.


eBay listing






JNS listing


----------



## Ivan Hersh

Looking at Ohira Stones i found this site about the Ohira Mines.
http://thejapanblade.com/blog/2011/09/10/the-ohira-mine-a-visit/


----------



## Desert Rat

I came across this seller on Ebay yamitsu13 apparently from Florida. Are these the cheap Chinese stones or maybe roofing slate? Listed as 12000 grit. Anyone have any experience with the stone? I know nothing about any stones except Arks and am in no hurry to get into the JNATS but I do hone razors. Suitable stone for such purposes?
I think I already know the answer but it doesn't hurt to ask.


----------



## pentryumf

If I may chime in. MetalMaster was a great introductory library of stones with very fair prices. I have also bought from AFramesTokyo and was equally pleased. TheJapanStone was where I bougbt one of my first stones, a nakyama kiita koppa, which is still my little joy stone. My stone library is simple and mostly koppas as their far more affordable. Lately I have purchased more stones of grade 40, 32 & 24, bench size that will outlive me easily. I would give two tips for any new Jnat owner, use it, again and again. Try it after bevel setting on synthetic, then just lose yourself is the experience, it's meditative. Secondly, buy a koppa to start even if you have the funds for a bench stone, a koppa gives the user an appreciation for grade/ size cost as well as nuances in rotations and staying flexible in technique. 

The world of naturals is truly a higher plain of enjoyment when touching up a blade.

Admittedly my favorite combo right now is a honyama awasedo from BadgerTooth dressed on a Arkansas surgical, deadly.


----------



## adam92

tgfencer said:


> While there are many sources of natural stones, these are the easiest to access for Western markets and the ones you're most likely to hear mentioned on forums or by other jnat users.
> 
> The purpose of this list is to provide information on credible and dependable vendors of jnats, as well as warnings as about vendors who have, through the experiences of our members, come to be seen as questionable. What people then do with this information is up to them, folks are of course free to spend their money where they wish.
> 
> 
> I will keep this list as up to date as possible as new information becomes available and validated.
> *
> Last Update: Oct 29, 2018
> 
> Trustworthy Stone Sellers:
> (Vendors who provide good information, high quality pictures, and can be corresponded with in a timely and transparent manner.)*
> 
> JNS
> JKI
> Alex Gilmore/JapanStone
> Aframes
> Japan Tool-Iida
> Carbon Knife Co.
> Bernal Cutlery
> Tosho Knife Arts
> Japan-Tool
> Hitohiro
> Watanabe
> 
> 
> *Questionable Stone Sellers:
> (Vendors who provide questionable or misleading information, pictures that may not be detailed or useful in determining characteristics of the stone for sale, and cannot be corresponded with in a timely and/or trustworthy manner, if at all.)*
> 
> 330mate (Aka. 130mate, Fujibato, umegahatatoishi_nakakatsu, Ymmtnofm, Mifuqwai, Dr_naka)- Low quality stones overall, though some have reported receiving good quality stones. Many stories of his being an unreliable vendor. There seems to be considerable risk involved with purchasing from this supplier, for every 'good' stone of his reported, there are dozens that are bad. You may get what you expect, you may not. Buy at your own risk.
> 
> YourTogiya (Aka. Togiya 180, Current ebay accounts: japanese_natural_whetstone and kossy_1123)- Blatant re-stamping of stones from other sellers and an unwillingness to explain/apologize when confronted with proof. Some debate as to the quality of his stock, with reports of both good and bad stones, but definitely no question as to his underhanded business practices.
> 
> (Please Note: So far as I can determine, the kossy1123 account on Yahoo Auctions has no affiliation with YourTogiya's ebay account kossy_123. Kossy1123 existed long before YourTogiya's ebay account and the name was likely stolen as a ploy. )
> 
> 
> *Somewhere in Between/Hit and Miss:
> *
> Metalmaster- Out of date website, ebay, etc. Hard to communicate with, late or very delayed shipping on occasion, some customers have been forced to request refund due to goods failing to ship. However, good quality stock overall.
> 
> Japanese Auction Sites- As you would expect from an auction site (i.e. the ebay model) quality, honesty, and prices vary. Not recommended for beginners, those who want a sure thing, or those who just want to buy a good stone and be done with it. That said, steals can be found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As a side note on Metalmasters: Personally, I've never had a problem with not receiving items and on the occasions they're late, its usually because MM is not very good about checking his sites when people buy stuff. That said, a grain of salt may be important here. He updates his website rarely (once or twice a year) and seems to be more and more inactive. Anecdotally, I once waited for some stones he told me he was going to restock soon, only to not hear from him until almost 2 years later.


Update my review on Ymmtnofm.

I bought an IYOTO 伊豫砥石 from him in buyee one years ago, the stone come with crack line which i didn't notice.

This is my first stone & only one JNAT, the slurry is only gray & feels like sandy, i guess the grit under 1000#.

Now my stone crack to 2 parts, probably 3 parts is coming soon as the line getting bigger...








Recently i saw Kossy_1123 post on buyee with shinden suita bid to above 30000 yen, don't know is it worth or not, since there's not many information maybe i should buye with watanabe/JNS or aframe..


----------



## spyken

I have not had much luck. A seller sold me something which I thought would be in the 2k range but turned out to be pretty rough in the 1k range. So far it's been a hit and miss and expensive lessons.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

spyken said:


> I have not had much luck. A seller sold me something which I thought would be in the 2k range but turned out to be pretty rough in the 1k range. So far it's been a hit and miss and expensive lessons.



Where are you buying your jnats, spyken?


----------



## Xenif

adam92 said:


> Update my review on Ymmtnofm.
> 
> I bought an IYOTO 伊豫砥石 from him in buyee one years ago, the stone come with crack line which i didn't notice.
> 
> This is my first stone & only one JNAT, the slurry is only gray & feels like sandy, i guess the grit under 1000#.
> 
> Now my stone crack to 2 parts, probably 3 parts is coming soon as the line getting bigger...View attachment 71540
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 71540
> Recently i saw Kossy_1123 post on buyee with shinden suita bid to above 30000 yen, don't know is it worth or not, since there's not many information maybe i should buye with watanabe/JNS or aframe..


Thanks for your update, but I think most of us already stay away from the 330/ymmtnofm/other alias see list*. 

Kossy1123 is a good seller from what I can tell (not to be mistaken with kossy_123)

When you say theres a lack of information, do you mean the seller or Shiden Suita


----------



## CiderBear

Has anyone bought natural stones from Yoshihiro before?


----------



## Carl Kotte

I’ve bought a few small stones from eBayer ikkyujapanavenue. I know nothing about jnats so I can’t say if the stones are what they’re claimed to be. But the seller is nice and responsive and I’ve been happy with most things I’ve bought from him/her (again, I don’t know anything so the fact that I’m happy with the items doesn’t say much about the quality of the stones [emoji16]).


----------



## adam92

Xenif said:


> Thanks for your update, but I think most of us already stay away from the 330/ymmtnofm/other alias see list*.
> 
> Kossy1123 is a good seller from what I can tell (not to be mistaken with kossy_123)
> 
> When you say theres a lack of information, do you mean the seller or Shiden Suita


There's 2 Kossy? I've had no idea about it, the suita don't have much info for me, maybe i was wrong, Have you brought anything from kossy_1123 before?


----------



## M1k3

I believe kossy_1123 on Buyee is MetalMaster? On eBay it's that scammer.


----------



## Xenif

M1k3 said:


> I believe kossy_1123 on Buyee is MetalMaster? On eBay it's that scammer.


Metalmaster is NOT the same as Kossy1123, I confirmed that, I have bought from both before. All other "Kossy" are scammers



adam92 said:


> There's 2 Kossy? I've had no idea about it, the suita don't have much info for me, maybe i was wrong, Have you brought anything from kossy_1123 before?



I have bought from the buyee seller, stone range from Ok to Good. 

Heres a Shinden Suita from there


----------



## spyken

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Where are you buying your jnats, spyken?


I'm not really looking for them specifically, but I saw one or two posts on IG and under $100, and I was tempted. I really don't have the budget for luxury stones these days. and have my synthetics so ideally if I could swap my synthetics for naturals without paying a single cent, that would be the best haha.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

spyken said:


> I'm not really looking for them specifically, but I saw one or two posts on IG and under $100, and I was tempted. I really don't have the budget for luxury stones these days. and have my synthetics so ideally if I could swap my synthetics for naturals without paying a single cent, that would be the best haha.



When you said it had been a hit and miss and expensive lessons i thought you were talking about jnats. My advice is more of the same: buying from known sellers (Yamashita-san, Watanabe-san, Maksim-JNS, Jon-JKI or people from KKF you know) and ask them all your questions before buying.


----------



## tgfencer

Marcelo Amaral said:


> When you said it had been a hit and miss and expensive lessons i thought you were talking about jnats. My advice is more of the same: buying from known sellers (Yamashita-san, Watanabe-san, Maksim-JNS, Jon-JKI or people from KKF you know) and ask them all your questions before buying.



This. Buying natural stones-or really anything- isn't rocket science. Diamonds in the rough exist, but you aren't going to find them unless you're willing to devote the time and resources to sift several tons of dirt (or you're very lucky). Many people seem to think there's some way secret methodology to getting good quality items fast and cheap, but there's no real way to hack or beat the system. You get out what you put in and that means time, effort, communication, and due diligence.


----------



## adam92

Xenif said:


> Metalmaster is NOT the same as Kossy1123, I confirmed that, I have bought from both before. All other "Kossy" are scammers
> How about this kossy ?
> 
> haved you brought anything from this seller ?
> 
> 
> I have bought from the buyee seller, stone range from Ok to Good.
> 
> Heres a Shinden Suita from there
> 
> 
> View attachment 71930


----------



## spyken

Marcelo Amaral said:


> When you said it had been a hit and miss and expensive lessons i thought you were talking about jnats. My advice is more of the same: buying from known sellers (Yamashita-san, Watanabe-san, Maksim-JNS, Jon-JKI or people from KKF you know) and ask them all your questions before buying.


yes, it was hit and miss when I bought my 2 jnats. one was ok, the other wasn't. just don't have the budget these days haha


----------



## makhonyiu

Gjackson98 said:


> Lol this is probably going to be my laugh of the day.



By the way, the chinese words that imprinted on the stone is literally mean "dinosaur's feces fossil". 

Enough humor for today


----------



## bkultra

@makhoyiumitchell welcome to the forum


----------



## makhonyiu

Hello bkultra, nice to meet you.

Since I am a new member in this forum.
So if you don't mind, I will do a short introduction about my journey in natural stone sharpening over the past year (I treated this comment as a dairy of myself as well, and so some of the paragraph below may deviate from major stone sharpening ideology).

***Anyway, sorry in advance for the lengthy paragraph and my poor language***

-----

Initially, I was only fascinated by Japanese single-bevel knife (Deba to be exact) with literally no interest in sharpening (of course until now both of them are sharing equal importance in my life). I remembered when I first got my deba, I only used shapton 12000 to sharpen it and thought it is more than enough (which is very silly).

However, the turning point occurred when I finally realized the cosmetic finish a sharpening stone can give to the blade. Starting from that moment, I realized the limitation for synthetic stone and began to dive deep into the "black hole" of natural stone, soughing stones that does not only produce good cosmetic effect but also appealing in their own appearance and rarity (that's why I am about to go bankrupt




).

For me, since I am not a professional chef but a home cook specialized in architecture and stuff, and so natural stone not only a mere "tool" for me but instead SUBLIMES into a piece of "artwork/sculpture" or you may say a "gift" from the nature, while this gift has a special "accompany feature" that allow you to use it to sharpen your knife. Such kinds of primitive, organic and idealistic fantasy in natural stone sharpening is the biggest romance that long "haunted" my mind and giving me the biggest motivation to continue dive deep in this rabbit hole to the point that I literally willing to forgo most of my previous interest to sough for a high quality stones.

---

Anyway, I was "officially" trapped into this rabbit hole last year after re-reading many articles and scientific research posted on yanmodiy.com (permanently closed unfortunately), wrote by hardcore natural stone collectors from China and Taiwan. And I believe this forum played a significant role constituting my "belief" on natural stone (i.e. start off by trying high quality stone and don't waste time on cheap one). I know it may seems absurd for most people but I believe it is true to certain extent. In other words, even though you may buy stones with high price, but this value, unlike automobile or mobile phone, will not depreciate (or even inflate) overtime as long as it is the authentic one. For this reason, I am pretty convinced with this belief when walking on the path of natural stone sharpening + collecting.

And after staying in this rabbit hole for year, I gradually realize and sense (by my own instinct) how the "price" works in classifying different qualities of stones (***This "price range system" only applicable in reputable seller such as Watanabe or Tanaka as most of the retailers usually inflated the price for 30-50% and so it is not accurate to be the measuring standard in this system). Anyway, it does not mean I am totally skeptical about buying stone by pure luck nor believing there are stones which both perform and cheap in price (performance is somewhat a subjective personal standard I my opinion...), but I think there is always a reason listing the stone at certain price (Again, it is not an absolute as some dishonest seller may overly priced their stone even though their stones are low in quality). But still, looking at how reputable seller list the price for their stones are certainly a great practice sharpening my ability in roughly understanding the relationship between stones and their values.

Anyway, my very first Jnats were purchased from gokitcyou (there is almost no one mention this store in the forum): a hard Kouzaki aoto and black tsushima bench stone. Performance is "ok" but not the best one in my collection...

Fortunately, I did not suffer much from buying fake or low quality stone since I never buy stones from auction or ebay except for the asano naguras. But still I have bought a stone from nonosandesu, which is a great failure for me (I mean the stone performs well but the seller just marked the price twice higher in ebay than what he marked in Yahoo Auction Japan...) Anyway, I will return the stone to him so it is not a big deal after all.

To keep it short, it is overall a very enjoyable moment for me searching for stones over this year, especially the middle-grid stone (nakato) from different buyers, such as from gokitcyou, Watanabe, yunoki2244 or even directly from Tanaka san. The moment when you finally find what you long sought for is truly priceless.

Indeed, diving in this rabbit hole requires lots of money, time, failure in order to let you learn a precious lesson which others may not able to tell you. For example, during the journey of searching for stones, I have once tried to buy stones from diverse sellers and websites from Japan (e.g. e-toishi, toishi.jp, toishikan, saicom, namikawa and other stone shops in Hong Kong). By all mean, they are all reputable seller from Japan and Hong Kong, but you know, when you are staying in the rabbit hole long enough, you will gradually realize WHAT YOU REALLY WANT and I think such realization of your own desire and the reduction, condensation and optimization of sellers you are really going to seriously invest in are kinda a sign of maturity (can't find the right word for it) in this mystic field of interest.

Anyway, I will post more thread about my actual experience with each stones (I used to post them on Facebook though), hope you guys will like it.

---
Here is the list and record of stone I bought and once owned (in chronological manner), it will be great if you guys can also share yours to me!

(synthetic and diamond plate did not include in the list)

Aoto and Tsushima
V
Atagoyama Tomae
V
Ohira Akapin
V
Ohira Iromono
V
Asano Nagura (mejiro, ban, botan, tenjou, koma)
V
Maruoyama Shiro Suita
V
Nakayama Kiita Tomae
V
Ohira Renge Suita, Amakusa, Binsui, Mizukibara tomae
V
Asano Nagura Atsu and koma
V
Iyodo
V
Soft aoto
V
Kaisei (brown)
V
Wakayama Omura, Saeki
V
Nagasaki Omura, Numata
V
Asano Nagura Atsu (Big)
V
Kaisei (blue), Jokyoji


Again, thank you so much for reading and hope to exchange more knowledge with you guys in the future.


----------



## Matt Zilliox

Great post! thanks. I am just beginning this journey. i will look forward to your reports of each stone, and of course photos!


----------



## DHunter86

tgfencer said:


> 99.9% sure its this same guy below. If you go and look at the old sales of the honing_guide user, they take you to items sold by the kossy_1123 account.
> 
> _YourTogiya (Aka. Togiya 180, Current ebay accounts: japanese_natural_whetstone and kossy_1123)- Blatant re-stamping of stones from other sellers and an unwillingness to explain/apologize when confronted with proof. Some debate as to the quality of his stock, with reports of both good and bad stones, but definitely no question as to his underhanded business practices._



Just some additional info for those of you who might want to risk it and play ball with honing_guide: 

Over the past two weeks, the highest bidders were retracted from a couple of his auctions less than two hours before the end of the auctions. So if you're the second highest bidder, be prepared that you may become the winner. May or may not affect your bid price or strategy, just food for thought. No way to look into what's going on as his listings are all set as private.


----------



## alex1921

DHunter86 said:


> Just some additional info for those of you who might want to risk it and play ball with honing_guide:
> 
> Over the past two weeks, the highest bidders were retracted from a couple of his auctions less than two hours before the end of the auctions. So if you're the second highest bidder, be prepared that you may become the winner. May or may not affect your bid price or strategy, just food for thought. No way to look into what's going on as his listings are all set as private.



Yes, honing_guide aka yourtogiya etc etc is a know Russian scammer. 
He has been doing this shill bidding using 2 extra accounts for years now. I got scammed by him over 3 years ago and despite contacting ebay etc nothing happend. Eventually wrote a bad review and he returned my money. 
Prior to switching the settings to private it was really easy to spot since he used the same 2 extra accounts to run his prices up. On top of that he uses those accounts to give himself high praises under the feedback section. 
So with him if you decide to play, you have to snipe. Otherwise you are just feeding the beast. 
Colors of stones have not been accurate either, a guy who bought 3 stones from him posted picture listed vs how the stones really looked when they arrived. I have it saved somewhere.


----------



## TRPV4

Also when buying multiple stones, shipping costs are extremely painful. Using the buyee "consolidate" option will save tons of cash.


----------



## jacko9

It would be very useful if some Senior Expert compiled a listing of the various types of Natural Stones along with their approximate properties. I for one am totally lost looking at Natural Stones vs Synthetic stones where there is a grading system of some usefulness.


----------



## spaceconvoy

Problem with naturals is the variation within one type of stone can be much greater than between different types of stones. No two stones are alike, and if you're buying online it's always a gamble. I wish more vendors took video of sharpening on each stone, but that's a lot of work and doesn't benefit them, just exposes the duds. Buy from a reputable source and prepare to spend $$$, or better yet, save that money for a trip to Kyoto


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

There are some vendors like Yamashita san (Japan Tool), Jon Broida (JKI) and Maksim (JNS) that have always delivered and i would trust them.

Also, before buying, ask their advice and all your questions.


----------



## M1k3

Aframes, Bernal and Watanabe also.


----------



## jacko9

Interesting after I purchased a few knifes from Shin Watanabe I asked him about buying Natural stones. He asked what I had and what progression I was using and told me to stick with what I had. I think the lesson learned is if you don't know about what you're looking for you can't buy intelligently. Even though I realize that two stones from the same mine might behave differently most people like myself have no clue as to what the different stones are about.


----------



## M1k3

You probably have to ask him to recommend X stone for Y use. Or between specific stones what he thinks. Etc


----------



## jacko9

M1k3 said:


> You probably have to ask him to recommend X stone for Y use. Or between specific stones what he thinks. Etc



That's what I was trying to say above when I asked if some expert would put together a rough roadmap so I could learn the terminology of Natural Stones.


----------



## M1k3

To generic for him.


----------



## lemeneid

Best to go in with a good attitude. There are no “bad” stones, only stones that do not fit your preferences. But most jnats need some adjustment to your skill set to bring out the best in them. They aren’t one dimensional like synths where all you do is rub metal.

The only bad stones out there are the ones full of toxic lines and inclusions. Those are the only stones you should avoid.


----------



## lemeneid

For guys looking to just sharpen, I think it would be best to just get a nice Aoto or Aizu to start out, those are more affordable, then after that go with a Suita. And maybe if you are doing single bevels, another finer hard stone. That’s all you really need to keep your knives sharp.

If you’re looking to do more fancy things like polish bevels, kasumi, honyaki, etc. Then please follow us down that rabbit hole


----------



## Rom

erezj said:


> Xenif, thank you so much for this thread, I really hope the senior stoners come out.
> 
> I've been down the rabbit hole now for four lovely years, and I can say that still I understand nothing.
> 
> The little contributions I can share is buying from MetalMaster a $50 Aoto, saw at the time so many great feedbacks on Aoto stones.
> 
> MM was OK to deal with, eventually my first Jnat, the Aoto arrived, I immediately disliked it, it felt like polishing on sand.
> 
> Eventually, a year latter, and a few little koppa's I bough on the way, I went 'wiled' and bought a $250 Aoto from JNS.
> 
> First of all JNS is a pleasure to deal with and supper fast delivery, and then there is the stone.
> 
> I have no real way to know if its a 'good' stone, I can only compare it to the one I got from MM for $50, and yes, it was worth at least 5 times the stone from MM.
> 
> The obvious conclusion is to buy from a reputable source, JNS, JKI among the best, and of coarse from this forum,but I just cant afford the $900 for a Ohira Renge Suita from JNS, so I spend time searching Buyee and got about three stones from there, are they good? I dont really know, but I regularly use one of them with much joy, and use the another , an Uchi, if wand a pretty finish.
> 
> hope this helped a bit
> 
> ahh, by the way, the stone I least use, and which was relatively expensive was purchased from 330mate.



I buy from Buyee too. I’ve bought knives and a relatively big (1408 grams) Kyoto Motoyama stone there. However, you have to read the shipping details very carefully on Buyee’s auction posts. I got charged 20,000 yen domestic fee (which is about the shipping cost for furniture) for a Global knife set (a santoku and petty knife) I bought from Buyee. Apparently, there are scammers that do this practice (the shipping details where the domestic shipping charge is indicated is not readily seen in the post) and Buyee can’t do anything about it. So I’ve learned my lesson and scrutinize the domestic shipping cost of items auctioned at Buyee.


----------



## D J

Hi guy's. I just became a member a couple of days ago. I hope I don't bore everyone with this story. My knife journey started about 11 years ago now and I wish that I had started a sharpening journey first, but anyway it wasn't until I had 6 or so knives, a couple of them were starting to dull and I didn't know what to do. I started searching knife sharpening. rigs, jigs, guides, anything that requires no skill. I ended up buying a set of dmt diamond stone's and a dmt angle guide, my knives were mostly vg10 with one sg2 and two r2. I was happy with the edge I could get from this set-up. Life was good  Until I bought my first high carbon knife Mr teruyasu denka petty. I didn't know that high carbon knives don't take a V edge. I removed so much steel from this knife before putting it away and I made a promise not to buy another knife until I could maintain the one's I had, without the use of angle guide. I had better cut this short to now, 7 or 8 years after the denka. I finally bought a new knife  a santoko from Mr Watanabe. I decided, well I wanted to show my own respect for the makers of the knives I was buying, which was mostly japanese knives. And I wanted to, at least finish on a natural whetstone. My first natural stone. I have a story about the experience I had with that as well. It was the stone that pulled me into the world of jnats. Unfortunately as with my knife journey. I jumped into the naturals with no knowledge, eBay was my main source, this is embarrassing to say but it's my true story and although I think the stones I have do a good job as far as abrading metal. It wasn't until around mid last year. I really had like, a level up with my sharpening skills. This is when I started to feel some hard lines and inclusionsin some of my stone's. Now I have a good look and ask some questions when buying a new stone. I'll leave it here for now. With a pic of my new knife with some stone's


----------



## BillHanna

What's up with the rejected stones Maksim put up today? Are they good or bad fixer uppers? Is this comparable to minor printing errors or are they flooded, salvaged Benzs? ( if any of that makes sense)


----------



## Hassanbensober

Looks like a lot of great stones to me. I would guess most are irregular shapes probably some won’t sit flat without aid. Some good deals to be had I’m sure.


----------



## valgard

BillHanna said:


> What's up with the rejected stones Maksim put up today? Are they good or bad fixer uppers? Is this comparable to minor printing errors or are they flooded, salvaged Benzs? ( if any of that makes sense)


In the past they were scratchy stones, with crack, etc


----------



## DHunter86

Some had lines in them which needed to be dug out. Wished I had seen them though, would have liked to purchase some of them.

I was refreshing the page daily, but there was nothing till after I went to bed.


----------



## childermass

some were looking somewhat alright but almost all of them had some toxic looking inclusions. Those with the lines might be easier to handle than the ones with the scattered impurities as you almost always miss some of those when digging out.
Best option for those will be cutting into Nagura.


----------



## D J

Hi I have an ohira suita bought from ebay, it has quite a lot of su lines. Two were hard "toxic". The worst one runs from maybe 20mm in from one corner to around the same to the other corner, also one other line came up. the line running from end to end is so hard, the nail I used kept sliding off the line, scratching and gouging. I saw a set of craft "needle" files, bought them and carefully filed like a small ditch on each side of the line, then with a steel plate ( an old double sided diamond plate I have). I first started to break the line, best I could, from end to end then put the corner of the steel plate on to the line dragging it back, it seemed to work out well. Time consuming of course but at least the stone can be used, I have often thought that it would be good to get another ohira. but look for a better cleaner one. The stone if not for the lines is great, it makes metal coloured slurry fast, it leaves quite a cloudy finish and most of the time I can finish on it. Just wish I had more room to move on it haha.
David


----------



## Rangen

lemeneid said:


> For guys looking to just sharpen, I think it would be best to just get a nice Aoto or Aizu to start out, those are more affordable, then after that go with a Suita. And maybe if you are doing single bevels, another finer hard stone. That’s all you really need to keep your knives sharp.
> 
> If you’re looking to do more fancy things like polish bevels, kasumi, honyaki, etc. Then please follow us down that rabbit hole



This might be the post, of all that I have read here, that I have thought most about, because I've absorbed its message, but found a somewhat different view: that there is wonder to be found, and quite a rabbit hole, using JNats just to sharpen.

I love sharpening on JNats. There is something about the feel of the stones that I find utterly compelling, and something about the edges I get from them, that I love more than anything a synthetic has been able to provide.

I like harder stones. I got myself a nice muddy Aoto, but I barely use it, because I prefer the harder Tsushima, which is roughly in the same grit range. Sharpening on a harder stone, when it turns perfectly slick and just-right abrasive because you got the water and the slurry just right, is intoxicating. From there, if I am pampering a great knife, I will move to this wonderful Ohira Renga Suita I just got, and then to a harder Okudo Suita, before my favorite kind of stone so far, the green Asagi, a wonderful hard stone which will put an edge on a knife like no other I've experienced.

Maybe that's the limit of this rabbit hole, except for my coveting of other examples of stones in that sequence. I admit it's not as deep as the polishing one. But it's pretty wonderful nonetheless.

I still might take up polishing one day. I bought a gorgeous stone here that is pretty clearly just for that. I may sell it on. Or maybe I will dive down that other rabbit hole...


----------



## josemartinlopez

lemeneid said:


> For guys looking to just sharpen, I think it would be best to just get a nice Aoto or Aizu to start out, those are more affordable, then after that go with a Suita. And maybe if you are doing single bevels, another finer hard stone. That’s all you really need to keep your knives sharp.


I'll probably regret asking this, but what's the benefit to working in a natural stone if you are looking to just sharpen and not get into polishing? And where does the first natural stone fit in your progression?


----------



## vl2k1

Rangen said:


> This might be the post, of all that I have read here, that I have thought most about, because I've absorbed its message, but found a somewhat different view: that there is wonder to be found, and quite a rabbit hole, using JNats just to sharpen.
> 
> I love sharpening on JNats. There is something about the feel of the stones that I find utterly compelling, and something about the edges I get from them, that I love more than anything a synthetic has been able to provide.
> 
> I like harder stones. I got myself a nice muddy Aoto, but I barely use it, because I prefer the harder Tsushima, which is roughly in the same grit range. Sharpening on a harder stone, when it turns perfectly slick and just-right abrasive because you got the water and the slurry just right, is intoxicating. From there, if I am pampering a great knife, I will move to this wonderful Ohira Renga Suita I just got, and then to a harder Okudo Suita, before my favorite kind of stone so far, the green Asagi, a wonderful hard stone which will put an edge on a knife like no other I've experienced.
> 
> Maybe that's the limit of this rabbit hole, except for my coveting of other examples of stones in that sequence. I admit it's not as deep as the polishing one. But it's pretty wonderful nonetheless.
> 
> I still might take up polishing one day. I bought a gorgeous stone here that is pretty clearly just for that. I may sell it on. Or maybe I will dive down that other rabbit hole...



Indeed I share somewhat similar sentiment with an Aoto. I too, took the first JNats steps recently and invested in an Aoto. Stone was muddy and softer than I expected. Nothing wrong with the Aoto per se. Just that, coming from a synesthetic stone setup and then jump in with both feet in with an Aoto was so jarring that I couldn't quite make peace with it yet. So, it's a valuable lesson to me that the rabbit hole is deep and wide. Each stone have their own personality, takes time and effort to understand. This particular stone is just different from what I thought it is. The previous owner offered wise advice and I am making progress, but still some way to go before I can claim some proficiency with it.


----------



## spaceconvoy

josemartinlopez said:


> I'll probably regret asking this, but what's the benefit to working in a natural stone if you are looking to just sharpen and not get into polishing? And where does the first natural stone fit in your progression?


I have a fast aoto I use as a finishing stone. My progression has become very simple: 500 glass stone to aoto. And sometimes just the aoto if the knife is in good shape. I don't bother with polishing, just use it for sharpening. 

I prefer the edge it gives over any synthetic I've tried. Conventional wisdom around here is that naturals create a more complex edge that can be toothy yet refined, due to the wider range of grit size. Seems true to me, and the practical result in the real world is the knife still slices tomatoes long after it would have needed resharpening on a synthetic.


----------



## D J

While searching natural stones on Google awhile ago I came across a site called. Japanese whetstone glossary. I still like to try to find and read different views and opinions about naturals. The whetstone glossary is just one part of the site. There's a menu of different topics from sealing stones, buying stones, nagura and more, It was to me some good insights by the author. And I wished that I had read something like this when first starting out on my jnat journey. I would recommend it to anyone just getting into naturals.


----------



## D J

What I meant by "I still like to try to find and read different views and opinions" is. I still like to learn


----------



## kayman67

josemartinlopez said:


> I'll probably regret asking this, but what's the benefit to working in a natural stone if you are looking to just sharpen and not get into polishing? And where does the first natural stone fit in your progression?



It's the same as always, but there are some caveats to it. 
For example. Naturals have the ability, in theory, to offer a much more aggressive edge while being finer as well. And they do this a lot easier for most levels of sharpening techniques. 
On the other hand, not all of them are as straightforward. So, in reality, you have these circles that meet in a rather narrow spot, if you consider all the stones one could just buy without knowing anything about what they do. This is why most people recommend certain stones from reputable retailers. Sure, you can experiment with anything else, but don't expect to start like this and win the lottery every time.


----------



## Xenif

kayman67 said:


> It's the same as always, but there are some caveats to it.
> For example. Naturals have the ability, in theory, to offer a much more aggressive edge while being finer as well. And they do this a lot easier for most levels of sharpening techniques.
> On the other hand, not all of them are as straightforward. So, in reality, you have these circles that meet in a rather narrow spot, if you consider all the stones one could just buy without knowing anything about what they do. This is why most people recommend certain stones from reputable retailers. Sure, you can experiment with anything else, but don't expect to start like this and win the lottery every time.



Well said.


----------



## Hanmak17

josemartinlopez said:


> I'll probably regret asking this, but what's the benefit to working in a natural stone if you are looking to just sharpen and not get into polishing? And where does the first natural stone fit in your progression?


Personally, I'm not sure there is one. I have yet to find a natural stone that I felt was superior to synthetics for any sort of edge work. That is not to say that I don't use my nats for edge work, as I have recently invested significant effort experimenting with mid grits. In general, I prefer the cost, speed, consistency, and breadth of information available on various synthetics. IE: I can read threads, reviews etc. on synthetic stones and have a really good idea of what I am going to get when I buy the stone, + know that the stone I buy is exactly the same as the stone the reviewer wrote about. The other key point is that the logical transition point for progressing from synth to natural is well beyond the effective grit range needed to produce an effective edge. 

All that being said, I am investing heavy amounts of time/money in building out my mid grit natural stone collection to augment my synthetic collection. The primary reasoning being that it is easier to clean up and polish a knife that was sharpened at least in the final stages using a natural stone. I also really like the nasty friggin edges I can get with a few of my harder finer natural stones.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

In my experience and reading, natural stones shine the best in the finer grit stones i.e. polishing. If you've spent money on jnats, this is where the expensive jnats are, for evident reasons.


----------



## josemartinlopez

Some makers use synthetics but use a natural stone finisher as the last stone, to get a refined but still toothy edge the fine grit synthetic cannot produce, right?


----------



## Honyaki

I wouldn’t touch JNats @JML negligible difference. You can try JNS’ red aoto matukusuyama, or the morihei synths. those mixed grit synths will give you the “toothy and refined” edge


----------



## josemartinlopez

OK. jnats are so subjective and every single one is different, even more than knives. Still trying to learn.


----------



## naader

josemartinlopez said:


> I'll probably regret asking this, but what's the benefit to working in a natural stone if you are looking to just sharpen and not get into polishing? And where does the first natural stone fit in your progression?


Aizu put the best edges on kitchen knives I have ever tried, and I've tried.


----------



## naader

josemartinlopez said:


> Some makers use synthetics but use a natural stone finisher as the last stone, to get a refined but still toothy edge the fine grit synthetic cannot produce, right?


Or as polishers lol. Synthetics leave deeper scratches and generally arent as pleasant to use.


----------



## Hanmak17

josemartinlopez said:


> OK. jnats are so subjective and every single one is different, even more than knives. Still trying to learn.


 Everything is subjective, jnats especially so. That being said, once you've had a chance to use a bunch of different stones you get a feel for them and begin to gain some perspective. Per the earlier post, if you want a natural stone for edge work, an Aizu is the best place to start. They are also very effective polishing stones for Kasumi finish, and they are generally pretty consistent.


----------



## valgard

To *me*, if you are not polishing the biggest advantages from Jnats over Synthetics are
1- Feedback
2-Feedback
3-Feedback
4- easier to deburr on jnats as a general rule, especially because you can heavily manipulate their speed with the surface preparation and water management
5- versatility of pretty much having more than one stone in one depending on how you use them
6- stay flat longer (but this one is pretty negligible for edge work only in a single session for most people)

The quality and characteristics of the edges is more up to what you enjoy in my opinion, but I definitely prefer an Aizu edge on my gyutos over the synthetics I have used.


----------



## milangravier

I am sharpening on natural stones for 8 years. First was french and belgium stones, then about 1 year ago japaneses. Only talking about sharpening, to me, you will get a good edge anyway either natural or synthetic, if you got enough skills about sharpening. First reason to choose naturals for me is the experience : you got a piece of hardened steel and you need to work with a piece of rock. It is very "natural" and obvious to make them meet. And as two natural elements they should work with each other (abrasion, oxydation, burnishing...). This is super subjective for sure.
Others reasons would be the smoothness and feedback I didn't meet with synthetics, and exactly like valgard the possibility to make them work different ways depending on the preparation of the stone : atoma 140 / 400 / 1200 or nagura (all types of naguras), leaving the mud, washing the stone, adding some water...
Last one would be same as first one : the experience. Because with naturals you can play finding different preparation to get different results, first you're enjoying the process ; second you give a lot of attention to what is happening to catch the differencies and you become a better sharpener at the end !


----------



## Southpaw

Hey I got a question, is it okay to flatten my natural with the same flattener I use to flatten my shaptons?


----------



## JDC

Southpaw said:


> Hey I got a question, is it okay to flatten my natural with the same flattener I use to flatten my shaptons?


Depends on what flattener you use. Diamond plates (good quality ones) are usually ok as they don't contaminate the JNat by leaving their own abrasives. I've heard that a worn Atoma 400 is the best for JNats.


----------



## Southpaw

JDC said:


> Depends on what flattener you use. Diamond plates (good quality ones) are usually ok as they don't contaminate the JNat by leaving their own abrasives. I've heard that a worn Atoma 400 is the best for JNats.


I use one of these guys:


----------



## JDC

Southpaw said:


> I use one of these guys:
> View attachment 95517


It looks like something I won't use...


----------



## childermass

Southpaw said:


> I use one of these guys:
> View attachment 95517


Do yourself a favor and don’t use this on a jnat. It’s very likely that you will contaminate your stone with coarse synthetic grit and that’s the last thing you want.


----------



## Southpaw

childermass said:


> Do yourself a favor and don’t use this on a jnat. It’s very likely that you will contaminate your stone with coarse synthetic grit and that’s the last thing you want.


Thanks, that’s why I asked.

I have some sandpaper, will that work? And should the stone be wet when I flatten


----------



## JDC

Southpaw said:


> Thanks, that’s why I asked.
> 
> I have some sandpaper, will that work? And should the stone be wet when I flatten


You need either tomonagura or good diamond plates. Tomo means "same grit," so that it won't be a contamination to the stone.


----------



## Southpaw

So with the diamond plate, I can’t flatten my synths with it, cuz the residue will contaminate?


----------



## JDC

Southpaw said:


> So with the diamond plate, I can’t flatten my synths with it, cuz the residue will contaminate?


That's not heard of. Get an Atoma 400 and you are good to go.


----------



## Southpaw

JDC said:


> That's not heard of. Get an Atoma 400 and you are good to go.


Thanks a lot JDC, I really appreciate your help


----------



## milangravier

Atoma plate will last a long time, it is good investment. You can use it on both synthetics and naturals. I wash it with a brush each time I change stones/grit


----------



## D J

Recently I bought a ohira suita. The seller put a small stone in the package as a gift, the small stone, (although wrapped in bubble wrap) was broken in half. I was disappointed but it was a gift. I thought about using it as a nagura. But decided to try and glue it back together. I used liquid nails clear glue, so far it's holding up. I do wonder though, is it safe to use glue on a stone, I clean my knives after sharpening but could any toxins transfer. Is the glue non toxic when cured ? I don't know.


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## valgard

No need to worry about your knife and toxicity in that sense. Just rinse and wipe. Glue is more a problem when it cures hard and creates a hard line in the stone that can scratch or affect the edge.


----------



## D J

Phew...thanks valgard. I did put the glue on the back of the stone only, but when I pushed the 2 pieces together they didn't line up properly so had to pull them apart slightly. When I did this the glue went into the gap, from what I could see it went to about 10mm below the top of the stone


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## valgard

You should be fine for a long time, can always pick out the glue from the line when you get to it if it's scratchy.


----------



## Mlan

Thought I would drop this link here. It is definitely the most comprehensive guide to Natural Stones that I have come across. If you are interested about what many of the Kanji or words mean or just want to learn more I think it is worth taking a peak. Enjoy.









Japanese Natural Stones, Kanji & Information


IMPORTANT: If you want to use information of this site, please use a link to my page. In that way the information will be the most up-to-date! It is allowed to use / copy the kanji and their…




historyrazors.wordpress.com


----------



## nutmeg

valgard said:


> 6- stay flat longer (but this one is pretty negligible for edge work only in a single session for most people)


When used as pre-finisher,
I'm not a big fan of coarse and mid grit Jnats (2-3k or less) because they are so slow.. 
And once you use a soft finisher you can't see/feel wether a Jnat or synth has been used before. Also I prefer using a Synth that is getting flattened every minute.
But yes, this would be the only advantage I see for coarse and mid grit Jnats over synth.


----------



## LAB

Apologies for the double message


----------



## LAB

XooMG said:


> I asked an old Japanese dude and he said it might be an excellent paperweight.


I was reading the thread from the start... this is hilarious.
It literally says Dinosaur Faeces fossil stone....


----------



## tcmx3

I bought a somewhat suspicious looking okudo tenjou suita off ebay because I figured for the price why not. 

cant wait to see the unique and interesting way it leaves ugly scratches on a knife lol.


----------



## TonyZ

I have my first jnat on the way. Should I look to mount the stone on a piece of wood? Any suggestions on how to do it? 

Also, what are the implications of inclusions and why are some stones noted with toxic inclusions. Obviously toxic=bad but wouldn't you be washing the residue off of your knife before using it?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

TonyZ said:


> Also, what are the implications of inclusions and why are some stones noted with toxic inclusions. Obviously toxic=bad but wouldn't you be washing the residue off of your knife before using it?



Toxic doesn't mean harmful if consumed in this case - it means that the inclusion will spit out crap that will ruin your polish.


----------



## childermass

TonyZ said:


> I have my first jnat on the way. Should I look to mount the stone on a piece of wood? Any suggestions on how to do it?


It’s usually not necessary to mount a stone unless the thing is wobbly in use or very thin but it is of course cool and a good excuse to do some woodworking and maybe buy some tools .
If you want to do it and need some tips feel free to send me a pm, I‘m always happy to help.


----------



## branwell

childermass said:


> It’s usually not necessary to mount a stone unless the thing is wobbly in use or very thin but it is of course cool and a good excuse to do some woodworking and maybe buy some tools .
> If you want to do it and need some tips feel free to send me a pm, I‘m always happy to help.



If your stone wobbles, a solution might be to try this mat material. Its available many places including Home Depot, Walmart etc. Mounting the stone to wood could be nice to, because well, wood is nice


----------



## josemartinlopez

valgard said:


> To *me*, if you are not polishing the biggest advantages from Jnats over Synthetics are
> 1- Feedback
> 2-Feedback
> 3-Feedback
> 4- easier to deburr on jnats as a general rule, especially because you can heavily manipulate their speed with the surface preparation and water management
> 5- versatility of pretty much having more than one stone in one depending on how you use them
> 6- stay flat longer (but this one is pretty negligible for edge work only in a single session for most people)
> 
> The quality and characteristics of the edges is more up to what you enjoy in my opinion, but I definitely prefer an Aizu edge on my gyutos over the synthetics I have used.


I’m still thinking about this and the other excellent replies here. Feedback is definitely something you won’t appreciate until you tried it, so really appreciate this response from @valgard among others. 

Is there any good resource or set of old posts to read up on how to construct and mix up a jnat progression? Even to understand what questions one should be asking and how one feels out one’s preferences? Even more than knives, choosing jnats from photos and shipping then cross border to try is an intimidating exercise.


----------



## daveb

Stone questions. I knew this day would come......


----------



## josemartinlopez

Ban me now...


----------



## daveb

josemartinlopez said:


> Ban me now...





You could take the same approach you did with knives - buy them all.


----------



## stringer

josemartinlopez said:


> Ban me now...



Too late. You've stepped too close to the rabbit hole and entered it's inexorable gravitational field.


----------



## tcmx3

daveb said:


> You could take the same approach you did with knives - buy them all.



unlike with knives that's the ONLY approach with stones 

that said I actually feel like if you buy from reputable places that tell you about the stones it's actually a lot harder to go wrong than is sometimes portrayed. you just need to be willing to spend the money necessary.


----------



## JDC

tcmx3 said:


> unlike with knives that's the ONLY approach with stones
> 
> that said I actually feel like if you buy from reputable places that tell you about the stones it's actually a lot harder to go wrong than is sometimes portrayed. you just need to be willing to spend the money necessary.


Maybe the overcharge is worth it T_T


----------



## josemartinlopez

daveb said:


> You could take the same approach you did with knives - buy them all.


I could always rationalize saying I need one of each color to start...


----------



## Froztitanz

josemartinlopez said:


> I could always rationalize saying I need one of each color to start...


That can be arranged.


----------



## josemartinlopez

Seriously, though, how do you guys design a jnat progression and how do you work a new stone into a progression?


----------



## JDC

I like the idea to have a fast finishing jnat (high polish, cuts new bevels/micro bevels). One and done.
However your knives need to be professionally polished first.

If you want to heavily modify the grind, you will need to build a full progression. IMHO, the most important stones are the coarser ones (synthetic), as you will need to efficiently shape the blade and remove all low spots.


----------



## Rangen

josemartinlopez said:


> Seriously, though, how do you guys design a jnat progression and how do you work a new stone into a progression?



I'm using mine mostly for sharpening, not polishing, but that doesn't really change the answer to your question. For me it works like this:

1. Buy a stone from a reputable vendor, expecting a very rough range of grits and possible uses from the type, and the vendor's information
2. Get to know the stone. Figure out what it's good for. Take your time. If it doesn't fit your needs, sell it on.
3. Decide what's missing from your desired progression, and look for a stone that will fill that gap
4. Repeat

Hard to design a progression in advance. Unlike with synthetics, you can't know exactly what you'll have until you have it.


----------



## daveb

I think most start with a finishing stone, get the bug and work their way down.

Lot of choices at finishing level, 200ish, stupid or way stupid.

Mid level it's Ikarashi or Aizu (or both) to prepare for finish.

You'll need an aoto of course - may finish gyuto, petty. suji on one.

I only know of Omura at coarse level - there's probably more.

An inevitable question is do you want to use them or look at them?


----------



## josemartinlopez

Use them, in the rare instances I need to sharpen.


----------



## milangravier

I first tried Jnats about 2 years. It was already for polishing more than sharpening but surely wanted to do both. My first try was Namikawa : it is quite good reputation and you can get quite cheap stones. They are not tested but, well you get an awasedo for 15000 yens and my first Uchi was 10000 yens (so about 90usd). They were small and not perfectly pure but, well, I have to said they were working great ! Then I wanted to go further, just try them, understand the differences between mines, strata, hardness etc. And I start buying to "reputable" sellers. I have to say, for about 1 year, 1 year and a half, even people were testing the stones, send me pictures or video, I was always surprised finally when I get the stone and was trying it myself. Sometimes disapointed.
First for sure is technique : you really can't expect feel what a stone can give you if you have not spent the time learning how to shape properly a bevel on a blade. Second, if you're just starting, go with a mid/soft stone, prefinisher, cheap one, or Aizu/Natsuya. They are quite forgiving compared to harder stones that really need technique underneath. Third, actually sellers are testing stone but are not always great polishers or just don't polish the way you do, so there can be surprises again. Price can't be a good way to be sure it is good stone. I pay quite big money for a Watanabe stone (I had a grant so could pay), finally the stone is good but not "that" good, or maybe not "that" good for the way I am using stones.

If you want to sharpen your knife with jnats, first you need to know the type of edge you want (bity or clean refined), then you're looking for fast stone (if possible, very rare sellers will tell you the stone is very slow), and good feedback (most of the time you will discover that when you will actually try the stone yourself). I would go synthetic on coarse stones (under 1k). Maybe Nubata for 1k. Natsuya for 2k. Aizu or Mikawa nagura for 3k. Any mid soft stone (LV3 / LV3.5) about 6k. My favorite for sharpening in the stones I got is an Ohira suita (more LV4), second would be Uchigumori hato (LV3). These are advises with big quotation marks, as there is so much stones out there, so much to quote. All can be good or crap.

For polishing, I think the rabbit hole is even deeper... Actually any stone can give you some special character, not only in term of finish but also in term of feedback, ease of use, result with a certain type of steel, clad, of geometry. Really, for polishing, you want to try at least 2 or 3 different stones, something like : one uchigumori, one little harder like atagoyama or some shoboudani (LV 3.5) (it is always difficult to advise because, you can find all type of stones in one mine ; you can find quite different stone in the Ohira suita category for exemple)., one quite hard stone (like wakasa or nakayama or never tried but cheapest looks to be Ozuku or Aiiwatani). So here you can have 3 very different stones, feeling, finish. Those will be use after a synthetic progression up to 6k at least.
For a natural progression (would stop at 3k synthetic), I would go Natsuya, Aizu, Soft prefinisher (uchi or some others), harder finisher (not necessary at first).

I don't think you can design in theory a good progression on paper and then just buy the stones. You need to buy one first, just one with the budget you got. Then with this first one after playing with it you will choose the second in comparison : softer or harder, coarser or finer, for the steel/hagane or for the clad/jigane, etc. Designing a natural progression with names of mines and strata would be for a collector, to get a nice range of jnats. But for sharpening or polishing goal, you need to try the stone yourself and after testing go in one other direction. With time you may be able to ask to a trusted seller the type of stone you're looking for. Sometimes you can be disappointed, but it is rare, most of the time you will feel some special character on any stone and that will be worth the experience. Hopefully can be sold again, exchanged so you're not in bad situation if one stone doesn't fit your need.


----------



## josemartinlopez

Thanks for a really well written, well thought out answer! I'm going to have to reread this a few times, but I'll start with a mid pre-finisher and a finisher with good feedback, forgiving for someone who rarely gets the chance to practice sharpening, and is not so particular about how fast the stone is. I'll avoid the polishing rabbit hole for as long as I can and focus on sharpening, I'm not even at the point of differentiating bity and clean jnat edges yet. 

For sharpening stones, what I understand is to try or add stones analogous to different high grit numbers of a synthetic progression and try stones that give different edges and have different hardness and feedback along the way. I'll try that and hopefully not have to store or try and sell too many stones along the way.


----------



## milangravier

Nice knife by the way!
If your first stone is a Natsuya like we can see (maybe about 2k), second could be a a 4/5k like Mikawa nagura or Aizu (they are great for sharpening I think; finer but same feeling as Natsuya I would say) or a little softer prefinisher (6k) like one Hideriyama or soft shobou, etc. (that will give you another type of feeling)


----------



## JDC

milangravier said:


> I first tried Jnats about 2 years. It was already for polishing more than sharpening but surely wanted to do both. My first try was Namikawa : it is quite good reputation and you can get quite cheap stones. They are not tested but, well you get an awasedo for 15000 yens and my first Uchi was 10000 yens (so about 90usd). They were small and not perfectly pure but, well, I have to said they were working great ! Then I wanted to go further, just try them, understand the differences between mines, strata, hardness etc. And I start buying to "reputable" sellers. I have to say, for about 1 year, 1 year and a half, even people were testing the stones, send me pictures or video, I was always surprised finally when I get the stone and was trying it myself. Sometimes disapointed.
> First for sure is technique : you really can't expect feel what a stone can give you if you have not spent the time learning how to shape properly a bevel on a blade. Second, if you're just starting, go with a mid/soft stone, prefinisher, cheap one, or Aizu/Natsuya. They are quite forgiving compared to harder stones that really need technique underneath. Third, actually sellers are testing stone but are not always great polishers or just don't polish the way you do, so there can be surprises again. Price can't be a good way to be sure it is good stone. I pay quite big money for a Watanabe stone (I had a grant so could pay), finally the stone is good but not "that" good, or maybe not "that" good for the way I am using stones.
> 
> If you want to sharpen your knife with jnats, first you need to know the type of edge you want (bity or clean refined), then you're looking for fast stone (if possible, very rare sellers will tell you the stone is very slow), and good feedback (most of the time you will discover that when you will actually try the stone yourself). I would go synthetic on coarse stones (under 1k). Maybe Nubata for 1k. Natsuya for 2k. Aizu or Mikawa nagura for 3k. Any mid soft stone (LV3 / LV3.5) about 6k. My favorite for sharpening in the stones I got is an Ohira suita (more LV4), second would be Uchigumori hato (LV3). These are advises with big quotation marks, as there is so much stones out there, so much to quote. All can be good or crap.
> 
> For polishing, I think the rabbit hole is even deeper... Actually any stone can give you some special character, not only in term of finish but also in term of feedback, ease of use, result with a certain type of steel, clad, of geometry. Really, for polishing, you want to try at least 2 or 3 different stones, something like : one uchigumori, one little harder like atagoyama or some shoboudani (LV 3.5) (it is always difficult to advise because, you can find all type of stones in one mine ; you can find quite different stone in the Ohira suita category for exemple)., one quite hard stone (like wakasa or nakayama or never tried but cheapest looks to be Ozuku or Aiiwatani). So here you can have 3 very different stones, feeling, finish. Those will be use after a synthetic progression up to 6k at least.
> For a natural progression (would stop at 3k synthetic), I would go Natsuya, Aizu, Soft prefinisher (uchi or some others), harder finisher (not necessary at first).
> 
> I don't think you can design in theory a good progression on paper and then just buy the stones. You need to buy one first, just one with the budget you got. Then with this first one after playing with it you will choose the second in comparison : softer or harder, coarser or finer, for the steel/hagane or for the clad/jigane, etc. Designing a natural progression with names of mines and strata would be for a collector, to get a nice range of jnats. But for sharpening or polishing goal, you need to try the stone yourself and after testing go in one other direction. With time you may be able to ask to a trusted seller the type of stone you're looking for. Sometimes you can be disappointed, but it is rare, most of the time you will feel some special character on any stone and that will be worth the experience. Hopefully can be sold again, exchanged so you're not in bad situation if one stone doesn't fit your need.



Really appreciate your unreserved sharing! Should have given you a medal if I have lol. 

I was wondering if the sword polishing progress can be used on kitchen knives. That system seems to be really mature.


----------



## milangravier

JDC said:


> Really appreciate your unreserved sharing! Should have given you a medal if I have lol.
> 
> I was wondering if the sword polishing progress can be used on kitchen knives. That system seems to be really mature.


I really don't know so much about sword polishing. But I think there is quite a lot of differences : first a kitchen knife is thin blade compared to a sword, a convex will be much more subtle. Second, I am speaking more about san mai blades as I don't know about honyaki yet and swords polishing is about putting the best geometry on a sword then bring most of the details in the steel as possible. For that, the process is specific using jito (harder) and hato (softer) bench stones then jizuya and hazuya (finger stones) to bring out the details in the hardened steel (hagane) and in the not hardened steel (jigane) with enlightenment of the hamon.
Because the blade is a lot more convex, stones are shaped convex too to be more powerful.
But all those info are maybe not the most true, I am not that much aware about proper sword polishing.

At the beginning of my learning, I was taught to work as sword polishers would do (or close to) : perpendicular scratch pattern with very coarse stones, then little bit more diagonal with the next stone, then even more diagonal with next one, then parallel scratch pattern with the last stones. It is working but I feel I am working better now working the top part of the bevel with longitudinal scratches (parallel) straight from the beginning so I can align all points on upper part of the bevel and make a good blade road for the finest hardest final stones. The edge part will be worked both perpendicular then parallel to create convexity and realign. This is for the kitchen knives.

But there still some mystery in the sword polishing work for me : how are they aligning the all bevel to be sure there is no low spot, if they work perpendicular with coarse stone and not longitudinal. I can imagine there is a longitudinal work that is done with coarse stones (or some other tool) at the very beginning with the sen maybe (chisel for steel) or I don't know.


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## JDC

milangravier said:


> I really don't know so much about sword polishing. But I think there is quite a lot of differences : first a kitchen knife is thin blade compared to a sword, a convex will be much more subtle. Second, I am speaking more about san mai blades as I don't know about honyaki yet and swords polishing is about putting the best geometry on a sword then bring most of the details in the steel as possible. For that, the process is specific using jito (harder) and hato (softer) bench stones then jizuya and hazuya (finger stones) to bring out the details in the hardened steel (hagane) and in the not hardened steel (jigane) with enlightenment of the hamon.
> Because the blade is a lot more convex, stones are shaped convex too to be more powerful.
> But all those info are maybe not the most true, I am not that much aware about proper sword polishing.
> 
> At the beginning of my learning, I was taught to work as sword polishers would do (or close to) : perpendicular scratch pattern with very coarse stones, then little bit more diagonal with the next stone, then even more diagonal with next one, then parallel scratch pattern with the last stones. It is working but I feel I am working better now working the top part of the bevel with longitudinal scratches (parallel) straight from the beginning so I can align all points on upper part of the bevel and make a good blade road for the finest hardest final stones. The edge part will be worked both perpendicular then parallel to create convexity and realign. This is for the kitchen knives.
> 
> But there still some mystery in the sword polishing work for me : how are they aligning the all bevel to be sure there is no low spot, if they work perpendicular with coarse stone and not longitudinal. I can imagine there is a longitudinal work that is done with coarse stones (or some other tool) at the very beginning with the sen maybe (chisel for steel) or I don't know.


Yeah the convexity may make a big difference. They also seem to have a schedule for each specific stone and their scratch directions. Not sure if all swords are taken to a specific range of hrc for the ha and ji. I think the stones may behave differently to hrc changes.

There’s very limited information on these in other languages, or even in Japanese. Maybe it’s inevitable, but I just wish we don’t need to trial and error and reinvent the wheel.


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## milangravier

JDC said:


> Yeah the convexity may make a big difference. They also seem to have a schedule for each specific stone and their scratch directions. Not sure if all swords are taken to a specific range of hrc for the ha and ji. I think the stones may behave differently to hrc changes.
> 
> There’s very limited information on these in other languages, or even in Japanese. Maybe it’s inevitable, but I just wish we don’t need to trial and error and reinvent the wheel.


I have tried about 2 months ago to test some sword polishing techniques. Damian Kordic was very kind to show me the basics.
I have done 2 knives with that technique and then go back to my own one, as I did not get the results I wanted.

What I learn : It is very hard to control and be sure you're not overgrinding the top of the bevel. Mostly because I am making knives with kurushi/hammered part on top of the blade, the shinogi is not set as a perfect line but is moving with the differences of thickness of the blade. So I was overgrinding that shinogi part, did not see I was overgrinding and when I get to finer stones I could see the stones were not touching the all bevel.
Normally, sword polishers are not grinding everywhere like from heel to tip, but they look at the blade, find the high spot or high area where there is too much material, select it and grind only that part, then look again, etc... I did not succeed to do that. It needs... eyes! it needs to know what to look at, find the subtle change of light because in some place there is too much material.
Must be little bit easier with a full polished blade compare to a blade with kurushi, maybe.

What I could see was that with the convex shaped stones + the way using them, the technique could grind very fast. For sure faster than flat stones. And the blade even with san mai, get bright so you really have a nice view on scratches and bevel shape.
The main problem of that technique is not a problem but a knowledge : you need to practice again and again so you have eyes to see your blade and see what to do looking at it, before you grind it. That need experience and knowledge, years of work. It is powerful technique, but it is just harder to learn.


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## Hanmak17

milangravier said:


> I have tried about 2 months ago to test some sword polishing techniques. Damian Kordic was very kind to show me the basics.
> I have done 2 knives with that technique and then go back to my own one, as I did not get the results I wanted.
> 
> What I learn : It is very hard to control and be sure you're not overgrinding the top of the bevel. Mostly because I am making knives with kurushi/hammered part on top of the blade, the shinogi is not set as a perfect line but is moving with the differences of thickness of the blade. So I was overgrinding that shinogi part, did not see I was overgrinding and when I get to finer stones I could see the stones were not touching the all bevel.
> .....That need experience and knowledge, years of work. It is powerful technique, but it is just harder to learn.



Fully agree. I think it is easier to achieve higher quality results (re: a flat/even bevel) using a flat stone. Takes a lot more time and effort but the results eventually reveal themselves.


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## JDC

milangravier said:


> I have tried about 2 months ago to test some sword polishing techniques. Damian Kordic was very kind to show me the basics.
> I have done 2 knives with that technique and then go back to my own one, as I did not get the results I wanted.
> 
> What I learn : It is very hard to control and be sure you're not overgrinding the top of the bevel. Mostly because I am making knives with kurushi/hammered part on top of the blade, the shinogi is not set as a perfect line but is moving with the differences of thickness of the blade. So I was overgrinding that shinogi part, did not see I was overgrinding and when I get to finer stones I could see the stones were not touching the all bevel.
> Normally, sword polishers are not grinding everywhere like from heel to tip, but they look at the blade, find the high spot or high area where there is too much material, select it and grind only that part, then look again, etc... I did not succeed to do that. It needs... eyes! it needs to know what to look at, find the subtle change of light because in some place there is too much material.
> Must be little bit easier with a full polished blade compare to a blade with kurushi, maybe.
> 
> What I could see was that with the convex shaped stones + the way using them, the technique could grind very fast. For sure faster than flat stones. And the blade even with san mai, get bright so you really have a nice view on scratches and bevel shape.
> The main problem of that technique is not a problem but a knowledge : you need to practice again and again so you have eyes to see your blade and see what to do looking at it, before you grind it. That need experience and knowledge, years of work. It is powerful technique, but it is just harder to learn.


Yeah, the more one can see and can feel often lead to better outcomes. It is very admirable what the sword polishers can see with their bare eyes.


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## Hanmak17

JDC said:


> IMHO, the most important stones are the coarser ones (synthetic), as you will need to efficiently shape the blade and remove all low spots.


I tend to disagree, but it is only my experience. Course synthetic stones leave very deep scratch patterns which are difficult to remove AND maintain geometry along the length of the bevel. It is IMO way to easy to remove too much material and end up with deep scratches that force one to remove even more material. 

Over time, I've really become quite fond of the Aoto/Aizu combo for removing the makers grind marks, low spots etc, while maintaining the makers intended geometry. This is particularly true for San-Mai blades as Milan discusses above. It is a slow and laborious process, but the results I think speak for themselves. 

Here is an example: 1. Knife from the maker 2. First session on the stones. 3+ today. I'm not sure I could have maintained the subtle curvature of the bevel spine/edge & heel/tip with a course stone. It would have also made it more difficult to reveal the subtle banding of the steel.


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## JDC

Hanmak17 said:


> I tend to disagree, but it is only my experience. Course synthetic stones leave very deep scratch patterns which are difficult to remove AND maintain geometry along the length of the bevel. It is IMO way to easy to remove too much material and end up with deep scratches that force one to remove even more material.
> 
> Over time, I've really become quite fond of the Aoto/Aizu combo for removing the makers grind marks, low spots etc, while maintaining the makers intended geometry. This is particularly true for San-Mai blades as Milan discusses above. It is a slow and laborious process, but the results I think speak for themselves.
> 
> Here is an example: 1. Knife from the maker 2. First session on the stones. 3+ today. I'm not sure I could have maintained the subtle curvature of the bevel spine/edge & heel/tip with a course stone. It would have also made it more difficult to reveal the subtle banding of the steel.
> 
> View attachment 153372
> 
> View attachment 153374
> 
> View attachment 153375
> 
> View attachment 153376


That’s very nice finish indeed! However, not all makers deliver reasonably even bevels to customers. In fact, a lot of Japanese knives require considerable amount of regrinding to reach this level of finish. Someone like Milan who goes above and beyond is definitely precious to the community.


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## Hanmak17

JDC said:


> That’s very nice finish indeed! However, not all makers deliver reasonably even bevels to customers. In fact, a lot of Japanese knives require considerable amount of regrinding to reach this level of finish. Someone like Milan who goes above and beyond is definitely precious to the community.


Fully agree, which is why I presented the knife I did. Dan is one of my favorite makers, but he delivers the knife with a very "rustic" finish. Some have complained that Dan's knives are all over the map in terms of grinds. Not my experience, but it's out there. 

This is perhaps different then TF and some of the more notoriously uneven grinds of Japanese blades. My only point being that a slower approach to regrinding process leads to better results, at least for me. Can't put material back on the blade once you've removed it. For this reason, I generally avoid synthetic stones for anything other then edge work. Just a thought


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## JDC

Hanmak17 said:


> Fully agree, which is why I presented the knife I did. Dan is one of my favorite makers, but he delivers the knife with a very "rustic" finish. Some have complained that Dan's knives are all over the map in terms of grinds. Not my experience, but it's out there.
> 
> This is perhaps different then TF and some of the more notoriously uneven grinds of Japanese blades. My only point being that a slower approach to regrinding process leads to better results, at least for me. Can't put material back on the blade once you've removed it. For this reason, I generally avoid synthetic stones for anything other then edge work. Just a thought


Yeah it's case by case. Working with a TF bevel can be frustrating on finer stones. But as you said, coarse stones remove metal fast and can change the geometry easily. Any new polishers should have enough practices and know what they want to achieve before putting their fine cutters on coarse stones.


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## tcmx3

Hanmak17 said:


> Fully agree, which is why I presented the knife I did. Dan is one of my favorite makers, but he delivers the knife with a very "rustic" finish. Some have complained that Dan's knives are all over the map in terms of grinds. Not my experience, but it's out there.
> 
> This is perhaps different then TF and some of the more notoriously uneven grinds of Japanese blades. My only point being that a slower approach to regrinding process leads to better results, at least for me. Can't put material back on the blade once you've removed it. For this reason, I generally avoid synthetic stones for anything other then edge work. Just a thought



finer synths can be excellent contrast setters for folks who are into huge contrast, or for knives where you're just not gonna get anything interesting out of the cladding.

also Im kind of with JDC here that for most Japanese knives you probably should go down and just fix whatever problems immediately, rather than let them continue, with the one exception being if you have a low spot placed high enough up the grind that there is no danger of it becoming a hole in the edge. I have found this REALLY improves the performance of knives and has turned some 'mediocre' blades into some of my favorites (e.g. my Hinoura kinda sucked then I just refinished it and evened things out a bit and now it is an amazing cutter).

Ive also found that the media blasted finishes tend to look really fine but cannot be easily nuked with a natural finisher.


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## milangravier

Hanmak17 said:


> Fully agree, which is why I presented the knife I did. Dan is one of my favorite makers, but he delivers the knife with a very "rustic" finish. Some have complained that Dan's knives are all over the map in terms of grinds. Not my experience, but it's out there.
> 
> This is perhaps different then TF and some of the more notoriously uneven grinds of Japanese blades. My only point being that a slower approach to regrinding process leads to better results, at least for me. Can't put material back on the blade once you've removed it. For this reason, I generally avoid synthetic stones for anything other then edge work. Just a thought


Very interesting. As a maker, I am really used to grind metal, a lot ! so for me I feel someone who want to play with naturals and their effect should go down 180 grit and fix the bevel geometry, as there is almost always something to clean, and to my experience is the only way to really play with the finish of stones at the end ! But you're very true about the fact to not to grind too much material and that some mistakes can be regretted, doing some scratches hard to erase.
Still my theory is that if the bevel is well shaped, there won't be much work to erase any 180 scratches (apart from diamond maybe). Most scratches that are hard to erase are in fact a low spot, not a deep scratch.


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## Hanmak17

JDC said:


> Any new polishers should have enough practices and know what they want to achieve before putting their fine cutters on coarse stones.



Exactly, I've (unfortunately) bought a couple of knives off the BST over the years that were seriously f'd by previous owners attempts at thinning or removing low spots. I think maybe my opinions on this are biased accordingly...

I love working with natural stones, it's a more laborious process, but I find it all to be very rewarding.


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## blokey

Not sure if this is the right thread or I should open a new one… Anyone have experience with Tanaka Aoto CKC is selling now? I have no experience with Jnat and this looks like a good one to try. Planning to use it for finishing after Gesshin 2k and doing some bevel Kasumi.








Tanaka Toishi Aoto Natural Stone Softer (Discounted)


These have slightly uneven corners on one end so we are offering at a nice discount. Brand: Tanaka Toishi 田中砥石工業所Product Type: Natural StoneProducing Area: Kyoto/ JapanSize: 175 x 57 x 57mmWeight: 1303g These Aoto are cut a bit smaller to make for a really affordable but very functional way to...




carbonknifeco.com


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## DHunter86

I've had one of these and another quite similar piece from Matsunaga. Great for sharpening and intermediate work, but mine had some scratchy bits that make them unfit for the final Kasumi finishing. Edges off them are amazing though.


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## Pie

blokey said:


> Not sure if this is the right thread or I should open a new one… Anyone have experience with Tanaka Aoto CKC is selling now? I have no experience with Jnat and this looks like a good one to try. Planning to use it for finishing after Gesshin 2k and doing some bevel Kasumi.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tanaka Toishi Aoto Natural Stone Softer (Discounted)
> 
> 
> These have slightly uneven corners on one end so we are offering at a nice discount. Brand: Tanaka Toishi 田中砥石工業所Product Type: Natural StoneProducing Area: Kyoto/ JapanSize: 175 x 57 x 57mmWeight: 1303g These Aoto are cut a bit smaller to make for a really affordable but very functional way to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carbonknifeco.com


Aoto for polishing are sort of hard to come by, it seems to me most of them have at least some scratchiness to them. Agree with @DHunter86 re: being great for edges and some clean up from lower grit synths, but if clean kasumi is what you’re after, other options may do better. Not to say it’s not possible tho. If you can find one of Takeda’s soft stones, they’re my current gold standard for prefinisher - no scratching and anything from texture to a soft mirror is achievable. 

That price can’t be beat, but it looks like it’s sold - did you buy it already? If so good buy, and a great place to put your first jnat data point.


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## Heckel7302

Pie said:


> Aoto for polishing are sort of hard to come by, it seems to me most of them have at least some scratchiness to them. Agree with @DHunter86 re: being great for edges and some clean up from lower grit synths, but if clean kasumi is what you’re after, other options may do better. Not to say it’s not possible tho. If you can find one of Takeda’s soft stones, they’re my current gold standard for prefinisher - no scratching and anything from texture to a soft mirror is achievable.
> 
> That price can’t be beat, but it looks like it’s sold - did you buy it already? If so good buy, and a great place to put your first jnat data point.


Totally agreed. My Aoto isn’t great for polishing. Too scratchy. But it puts amazing edges on my vintage carbons.


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## M1k3

Heckel7302 said:


> Totally agreed. My Aoto isn’t great for polishing. Too scratchy. But it puts amazing edges on my vintage carbons.


Can confirm! Still on the Aoto edge you put on the knives I got from you.


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## Heckel7302

M1k3 said:


> Can confirm! Still on the Aoto edge you put on the knives I got from you.


Great to hear. I've only ever sharpened knives for rank amateurs (including myself), so experienced validation means a lot. Hope you are enjoying them.


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## blokey

Pie said:


> Aoto for polishing are sort of hard to come by, it seems to me most of them have at least some scratchiness to them. Agree with @DHunter86 re: being great for edges and some clean up from lower grit synths, but if clean kasumi is what you’re after, other options may do better. Not to say it’s not possible tho. If you can find one of Takeda’s soft stones, they’re my current gold standard for prefinisher - no scratching and anything from texture to a soft mirror is achievable.
> 
> That price can’t be beat, but it looks like it’s sold - did you buy it already? If so good buy, and a great place to put your first jnat data point.


Sadly not me, missed this one. Thanks for the answer!


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## refcast

@blokey

That one looks like an oozing soft aoto.

Super duper aggressive edges. You'll get a kasumi with drag. But it'll haze up. Having tried like 10+ aoto so far, yeah this one looks softer and coarser

Yeah edge agression wise, soft aoto type stones are the best of all I've tried


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## natto

Second hand stones nudged me to buy. Some good stuff from reliable shops went by. A Kaedeyama and Tsuchima, a bit over 100€ each just arrived. The seller bought them in Japan. No further information added.

So far Kaegeyama felt smooth and a little slick. The seller marked the bottom as grinding surface. Top side got some scratches and laquer at the sides. Time will show what I got. Of course the deal is based on trust of "bought in a reliable toolshop in Japan"

Ordering some tools I added an Ozuku koppa from a local shop. Ozuku might be a known finisher, help to compare results.

Feel free to comment wether this is a reasonable route.



Hanmak17 said:


> I tend to disagree, but it is only my experience. Course synthetic stones leave very deep scratch patterns which are difficult to remove AND maintain geometry along the length of the bevel. It is IMO way to easy to remove too much material and end up with deep scratches that force one to remove even more material.





milangravier said:


> Very interesting. As a maker, I am really used to grind metal, a lot ! so for me I feel someone who want to play with naturals and their effect should go down 180 grit and fix the bevel geometry, as there is almost always something to clean, and to my experience is the only way to really play with the finish of stones at the end ! But you're very true about the fact to not to grind too much material and that some mistakes can be regretted, doing some scratches hard to erase.



I appreciate that discussion and this thread. So, once I got a foundatition to start my fist polish, where should I start?


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## TheLuthier

Well, I bought 3 stones to a dealer in Japan 2 years ago, I thought he was very serious... I overpaid the stones like hell, and I couldn't see some clear signals that showed me that I should have run from him. 

He pretend to sell me premium stones, they are not. Lesson learned, I moved on... but it is pretty painful you know


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## Rangen

TheLuthier said:


> Well, I bought 3 stones to a dealer in Japan 2 years ago, I thought he was very serious... I overpaid the stones like hell, and I couldn't see some clear signals that showed me that I should have run from him.
> 
> He pretend to sell me premium stones, they are not. Lesson learned, I moved on... but it is pretty painful you know


Ouch. Painful, yes. How did you find out that they were not premium stones? I am going through something like this right now, with this Natsuya I got from, let us say, a prolific source. I've been glaring at it, wondering: do I just not like Natsuya? Or is this not a good Natsuya?

"Worst stone purchase" would be an interesting thread, but with naturals especially, I always have to wonder if I have just not found the use in which they will be great. I am pretty sure I have at least two stones that are great, but which I have not found the right role for.


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## TheLuthier

I talked about my stones with various specialists, who knew a lot og things! The more I read about that, the better I knew about the market. The stones have some cracks too, and this is disapointing!


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## ethompson

Anyone who buys enough stones will end up with some paper weights…


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## TheLuthier

ethompson said:


> Anyone who buys enough stones will end up with some paper weights…


Great point


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## Hassanbensober

TheLuthier said:


> I talked about my stones with various specialists, who knew a lot og things! The more I read about that, the better I knew about the market. The stones have some cracks too, and this is disapointing!


Have any photos of the stones? 
What makes them bad? What are you trying to achieve with them?


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## TheLuthier

The stones are great, I just overpaid. $1280 USD for the Shobu, $780 for the Okudo and $840 for the Nakayama


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## D J

The lines don't look very bad at all from the pictures. Two of the stones are suita's, so you can expect to have su in them. You may have paid a bit more than you should but the stones look fine.


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## TheLuthier

D J said:


> The lines don't look very bad at all from the pictures. Two of the stones are suita's, so you can expect to have su in them. You may have paid a bit more than you should but the stones look fine.


Thanks for your post D J, yes I am not super unlucky and they are fine! I started in the world of the Jnat, and they are good enough for me right now! I know where to find premium stones on the market so, my future should be not bad at all! My guitars should be happy!


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## Hassanbensober

Stones look really nice.
This is just my perspective on the topic. My own experiences. Doesn’t matter how perfect the stone is or how much I may have paid to get it. I have to troubleshoot every knife or stone differently depending on the steel cladding stones hardness reactivity bevel flaws. There’s just a million factors. If I don’t take the time to tinker around with these things I will always be disappointed. And then I go back and start over because I find it enjoyable.
No point to my story really just a rambling stone addict.


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## TheLuthier

Hassanbensober said:


> Stones look really nice.
> This is just my perspective on the topic. My own experiences. Doesn’t matter how perfect the stone is or how much I may have paid to get it. I have to troubleshoot every knife or stone differently depending on the steel cladding stones hardness reactivity bevel flaws. There’s just a million factors. If I don’t take the time to tinker around with these things I will always be disappointed. And then I go back and start over because I find it enjoyable.
> No point to my story really just a rambling stone addict.


Good points, and nice rig! The thing I found very satisfying, is to find the perfect stone for each tool. I know this is a forum where people are sharpening their knives, but every tool is the same after all... we all love a nice silky smooth surface, that could cut anything!


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## JDC

The truth in the knife world is, one may have multiple stones for polishing but no knife with flat bevels. Most knife makers just don't make knives like that.


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## naader

Rangen said:


> Ouch. Painful, yes. How did you find out that they were not premium stones? I am going through something like this right now, with this Natsuya I got from, let us say, a prolific source. I've been glaring at it, wondering: do I just not like Natsuya? Or is this not a good Natsuya?
> 
> "Worst stone purchase" would be an interesting thread, but with naturals especially, I always have to wonder if I have just not found the use in which they will be great. I am pretty sure I have at least two stones that are great, but which I have not found the right role for.


There were a half dozen mines producing natsuya and unfortunately the really great ones are from a specific section of only one of the mines. Luckily that section produced a lot of stone. midgrits can be tricky haha.

The newer ones on the market (often popping up on morihei) are not at all like the old ones sold by companies like suntiger. Suntiger had all the nice stuff when it was available so if you want a good natsuya, one of their old stock stones is your best bet. There is still a risk of duds but it's sooo much lower with them. Stay away from anything with stripes unless it's been tested and fits your metrics.


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## TheLuthier

Very interesting, thanks Naader!


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## naader

Hanmak17 said:


> Over time, I've really become quite fond of the Aoto/Aizu combo for removing the makers grind marks, low spots etc, while maintaining the makers intended geometry


Man this sounds like a nightmare. You'd be looking at 30 hours per side on a wide bevel finished on a wheel if you wana remove steel with aizu, not to mention how much refreshing it would need to keep from burnishing.

This is only doable on knives with relatively flat or convex bevels with already manageable shape.
"good coarse stone" doesn't exist as far as I am concerned, so I do understand where you are coming from but there are options in the 500 grit range that you can use to reliably adjust tolerance issues you'd inevitably run into on most 180/200 grit stones. 

If you wana reliably move a ton of steel, doing it on aizu just sounds like masochism lol


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## Hanmak17

It's not easy and it doesn't happen in one pass. I've just gotten in the habit of periodically touching up my favorite knives on my Aizu. Pretty easy to run both sides across the stone to polish at same time. After a while most makers marks are gone and the reactivity to the stone seems to build up a nice finish that patinas quickly. 

Probably rediculous but works for me. I've got a handful of knives I've treated this way that I would never sell now. They are perfect in all ways for my needs.


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