# To be honest, Kato knife's Kanji is like wrriten by a 5 year old kid.



## Soccerman (Aug 15, 2016)

I know most of people here are not Asian, and because no one mentioned here before, I just wanna point out that Kato knife's kanji is so ugly that makes me laugh when I first saw his knife.
And take a look of other knives, like shigefusa(&#37325;&#25151;&#65289;&#65292; Yoshikazu Ikeda's brand &#22586;&#21271;&#36784;&#65292;nenohi&#23376;&#12398;&#26085;, the engraving beauty on these knives always impresses me.
&#26360;&#36947; originally from Chinese &#26360;&#27861;, is a calligraphy, it's a form of art, it needs both long time hard practice and talent. 
Based on an Asian's view, the kanji on kato's knife is really a joke. It's really hard to imagine an old man writing characters so childish. 

Imagine this, you let your 5 year old kid engrave a name on a legendary Kyle Royer Bowie, do you think it's a proud thing? or it just makes the knife look stupid?


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 15, 2016)

Sell all your Katos to me


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## jessf (Aug 15, 2016)

Pics or it didnt happen.


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 15, 2016)

Is this the Yoshiaki Fujiwara (Kiyoshi Kato) Kato? I know there is another "Kato" who makes a Masakage line. When I (and I also presume most others) say/hear Kato I am thinking of the former and not the latter. 

While I'm neither Asian nor can I appreciate the nuance of kanji calligraphy, I think that the kanji on Kato knives looks pretty cool, due to the boldness and amount of it. I want a single bevel Kato just so I can have all of the extra characters on the blade as a showpiece; I'm a lefty, so finding a lefty Kato would be very unlikely


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## Soccerman (Aug 15, 2016)

I mean the water quench technique Kato, it's not cool. every 5 year kid writes like this in east Asia...

If you dont believe me, try this, go find a Chinese or a Japanese, show him the pic of &#22586;&#21271;&#36784; and &#34276;&#21407;&#33391;&#26126;&#20316;, let him judge.

If I wrote like Kato in elementary school, my parents wouldnt let me slept until I can figure it out how to write.


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## brainsausage (Aug 15, 2016)

Soccerman said:


> I mean the water quench technique Kato, it's not cool. every 5 year kid writes like this in east Asia...



How do you feel about Picasso's work?


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## Soccerman (Aug 15, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> How do you feel about Picasso's work?



Not valid point, here we are talking about Asian culture &#26360;&#36947; or &#26360;&#27861;, based on this, Kato's kanji is ugly. 

I don't judge Picasso, if I really wanna say something about Picasso, I would learn some knowledge about Western painting first.


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 15, 2016)

This Kato?


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## Soccerman (Aug 15, 2016)

take a look #5 on this page. yes that's what i mean


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## Johnny.B.Good (Aug 15, 2016)

You mean the characters are poorly formed? Grammar? Not sure I understand the criticism.


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## Zweber12 (Aug 15, 2016)

Shows some confidence your knife work if you have your 5 year old engrave the knives for you. You can argue on style all you want. Any how, from my collection, kanji details of my yanagiba for comparision:


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## youkinorn (Aug 15, 2016)

looks like it's more about the tools used to do the engraving than it is his penmanship.


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## easy13 (Aug 15, 2016)

Please tell us some of your favorite kanjis to cut with then


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## Soccerman (Aug 15, 2016)

youkinorn said:


> looks like it's more about the tools used to do the engraving than it is his penmanship.



no, it's not the tool, he doesn't know how to write beautiful characters, beautiful hand writing means long time hard practice, maybe he's not interested into this, ,but such poor handwrting really sucks on a knife.


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## Soccerman (Aug 15, 2016)

easy13 said:


> Please tell us some of your favorite kanjis to cut with then



I already said at first, shigefusa(&#37325;&#25151;&#65289;&#65292; Yoshikazu Ikeda's brand &#22586;&#21271;&#36784;&#65292;nenohi&#23376;&#12398;&#26085;, these kanjis are amazing, you can tell the person who engraved them really can do the job.


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 15, 2016)

This thread is interesting to me because I would have never known, thanks for the enlightenment. That aside, I think this may lend itself to an aspect of F&F inasmuch as Kato is better known for performance


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## Ruso (Aug 15, 2016)

tjangula, what a show off  

I love how Kato Kanji looks. It's pure amazingness. Perhaps, the calligraphy is poor, but it's not something I understand or really care about. I view Kanji as a trademark rather than a handwritten show-piece.

P.S. If somebody wants to get rid of their Kato because of that, PM me


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 15, 2016)

Ruso said:


> tjangula, what a show off
> 
> I love how Kato Kanji looks. It's pure amazingness. Perhaps, the calligraphy is poor, but it's not something I understand or really care about. I view Kanji as a trademark rather than a handwritten show-piece.



I don't have the kikuryu anymore, but still have the other four. Also have two others at JKI that'll be coming my way in due course.


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 15, 2016)

Ruso said:


> P.S. If somebody wants to get rid of their Kato because of that, PM me



hey, I had first dibs as the earliest reply to the thread lol :nunchucks:


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## Mute-on (Aug 15, 2016)

The handwriting of most doctors and surgeons is typically illegible as well. Thankfully this does not impair their ability to diagnose illness or save lives in surgery. 
Hmmmm ... 
And no, you can not have my Katos with childish kanji. I like them just the way they are


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## malexthekid (Aug 15, 2016)

Mute-on said:


> The handwriting of most doctors and surgeons is typically illegible as well. Thankfully this does not impair their ability to diagnose illness or save lives in surgery.
> Hmmmm ...
> And no, you can not have my Katos with childish kanji. I like them just the way they are



Add engineers to that list... personally being one and having read a lot i think surgeon's/doctor's handwriting looks like perfect calligraphy in comparison


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## WildBoar (Aug 15, 2016)

My handwriting/ letterng is poor, too. But it doesn't mean I can't do my engineering work properly. The guy crafts and sells knives, not writing samples. So maybe he got a 'needs improvement' mark in penmanship all through elementary school, and was lashed by his parents with a wet noodle when each report card arrived. Heck, maybe they even forced him to spend hour after hour trying to improve his writing characters, but it just didn't result in much improvement. All that is important to most here is that he gets an 'A' in knifemaking.

Yeah, I get that I am not from an asian culture and therefore do not understand how people can connect one thing with something else that is unrelated. Thankfully things like that do not bother me.


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## JBroida (Aug 15, 2016)

i think what he's trying to say is more along the lines of this... say you bought a brand new corvette. Its a pretty sweet car. Drives great, has pretty cool design, etc. Now imagine it came with this kind of paint job:





It has nothing to do with the performance of the car, but it looks funny, right?


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## Ruso (Aug 15, 2016)

Your comparison is not that great. We are not talking about the finish of the knife, just the Kanji. It's more like if Corvette "flag logo" would look not as "sharp"....


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## chinacats (Aug 15, 2016)

You guys are great...I can't even identify knives I've owned in the past (ok, maybe present either) by kanji...but I could tell if it cut the same.

I would say that I definitely preferred Shigefusa kanji and in fact it may be one of the few I can identify--all because of that one character that reminds me of a fish hook

And just so I contribute more than my ignorance, I'll add a pic of my favorite kanji...mainly because it seems a bit different...it would probably look better if I took the dust off first, but it's stainless and therefore doesn't see much use.


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## pkjames (Aug 15, 2016)

the kanji engraving does take part in a lot of Asian customer's decision making. I personally think Ino-san's engraving (he is based in sakai and does engraving work for a few different brands) is some of the best currently available


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## JBroida (Aug 15, 2016)

Ruso said:


> Your comparison is not that great. We are not talking about the finish of the knife, just the Kanji. It's more like if Corvette "flag logo" would look not as "sharp"....



better? 






:razz:


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Aug 16, 2016)

While I don't have the expertise to identify bad kanji, I do find it interesting coming from a culture that values the art of perfection. Using doctors, engineers, and other professionals is a bad comparison to the original argument. Yes, we know what you mean but the OP is basing his opinion on culture, not profession.


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## panda (Aug 16, 2016)

i don't get why you even care about the engraving. i would prefer to not have anything on there. do you stare at it while you cut? or do you not even use the knives, but hang it up and think that you are super cool?


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## Devon_Steven (Aug 16, 2016)

Sounds to me like the OP deserves a lot more respect than this.


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## XooMG (Aug 16, 2016)

It is not simply about penmanship, but I do agree that the chisel work is rudimentary. It is not worthy of ridicule, nor of impassioned debate. This style of engraving is not at all uncommon, but I'd prefer it on a tang rather than on a blade face, especially if the knife is intended to be artistic.

Please go talk with Mr. Kato about his inscriptions and ask him why he does not see fit to spend more time on it, and perhaps avoid trying to crudely demean him on a forum he does not read (while accusing others of being rude to you). Perhaps you'll get a satisfactory explanation from him, and perhaps you won't. If you care enough to post about it on a forum that seems to be in a language that is not your first, certainly you can find the energy to ask him or an associate directly. If you wish to conduct yourself petulantly and truculently as it appears, perhaps you are not qualified to comment on others' politeness, or their upbringing.


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## panda (Aug 16, 2016)

Sounds to me like OP got made fun of a lot as a kid and still does.


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Aug 16, 2016)

This has been one of the more interesting threads in memory. Please don't spoil it.


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## AllanP (Aug 16, 2016)

You are the one making sweeping statements about a engraving thats almost as standard or clerical of a font as you can get. Again there is nothing five year old or whatever bs you are claiming no matter how many other Japanese or Chinese people are around you.

If you show this to 100 chinese people none of them will say it looks "bad" because it's like saying times new Roman is bad. It's not fancy that's for sure, but all the strokes are perfectly in place it's almost like it's written with a type writer. That's the impressive part because he can consistently produce it with hand chisels.

And quit ur crying, are you 7


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## Devon_Steven (Aug 16, 2016)

panda said:


> Sounds to me like OP got made fun of a lot as a kid and still does.



Well I think that the OP made a reasoned argument to support his opinion and that he deserves more respect than is being shown by a number of posters. 

"Opinion" is a key word here.


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## katana110 (Aug 16, 2016)

kato san say that i feed myself with my forging skill &#65281;


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## AllanP (Aug 16, 2016)

Devon_Steven said:


> Well I think that the OP made a reasoned argument to support his opinion and that he deserves more respect than is being shown by a number of posters.
> 
> "Opinion" is a key word here.



What was the argument to support his claim. He just kept repeating 5 year kids can write better and it's a joke.


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## Kippington (Aug 16, 2016)

There is no need to be upset.

[video=youtube;ygr5AHufBN4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygr5AHufBN4[/video]


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## Devon_Steven (Aug 16, 2016)

AllanP said:


> What was the argument to support his claim. He just kept repeating 5 year kids can write better and it's a joke.



In support of his *opinion*, he contrasted Kato's engraving style with three other makers'.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Aug 16, 2016)

I've been of this community for a lot longer than many here, and am known to be pretty blunt, but there is some bad form in this thread. And i'm not referring to the OP. 

Not sure why ad hominem is being used, simply intelligently prove him wrong with citations or a respectful counter reply. There's only so many threads you can discuss which knife you want, Shigefusa's, and Kramers. 

Good grief.


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## JaVa (Aug 16, 2016)

JBroida said:


> better?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:rofl2:


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## panda (Aug 16, 2016)

you definitely just confirmed my theory to be true.


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## mikedtran (Aug 16, 2016)

Regardless of whether Kato-san's engraving is poor, excellent or just decent - this thread is the trolliest of troll traps I have seen since I joined this forum...


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## JaVa (Aug 16, 2016)

The guy said he doesn't like the way Kato knives are signed. His opinion. 
Is it bad or not, I have no clue, but interesting point to non the less.

Ask a five year old to write ''made by Carter'' on a piece of paper. Print that on a picture of a Murray Carter knife and ask around what 
people think about that 600$ knife? That's how he sees it. And again... His opinion!

...And regardless I hope to get one some day (the standard though, not the workhorse).
...And btw the Kato Kanji looks amazing to me.


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## panda (Aug 16, 2016)

this thread is so awesomely random.


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## chinacats (Aug 16, 2016)

panda said:


> this thread is so awesomely random.



Good, I thought maybe I just had one too many cocktails...don't even want popcorn....


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## Soccerman (Aug 16, 2016)

JaVa said:


> The guy said he doesn't like the way Kato knives are signed. His opinion.
> Is it bad or not, I have no clue, but interesting point to non the less.
> 
> Ask a five year old to write ''made by Carter'' on a piece of paper. Print that on a picture of a Murray Carter knife and ask around what
> ...



I think you're a very objective person, the purpose of this thread is to give members here a notice that most people in East Asia area will think this Kanji is really bad, that's it,
I always believe more information will help people make right choice.


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## Soccerman (Aug 16, 2016)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I've been of this community for a lot longer than many here, and am known to be pretty blunt, but there is some bad form in this thread. And i'm not referring to the OP.
> 
> Not sure why ad hominem is being used, simply intelligently prove him wrong with citations or a respectful counter reply. There's only so many threads you can discuss which knife you want, Shigefusa's, and Kramers.
> 
> Good grief.



Jason, 
I can tell you're an intelligent and well educated people, and I came to US couple years ago, I got a mechanical engineering B.S. degree here in Utah,and I'm doing my master's degree in computer science.
Most people around me in real life are like you, logical and decent people,that's the reason I came here for study.
All I was saying is just a view of most Chinese and Japanese will think of the Kanji kato's knife. Is more information a bad thing?
Honestly if you can understand the screen print I just posted from the Chinese kitchen knife chatting group, the opinion is more harsh and accurate than my description.


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## rick_english (Aug 16, 2016)

Don't know if I should be respondingl, but I will.

Kato's kanji form a stylized signature. It is art, and good art at that. The main characteristic of a 5-year-old's signature is that it shows a lack of motor control. Kato's kanji show exquisite motor control. His signature is distinctive, repeatable, and fun. A 5-year-old's signature is messy, different every time, and a real chore. 

No serious knifemaker will put a maker's mark on his knives that gets ridicule from his friends. Many Asians have seen Kato's kanji, and I'll bet a nickel no one laughed and asked him if his kid drew it.

Remember that "simple" does not equate to "crude." Here's a proposal for a Hewlett-Packard logo that they did not adopt. It's dead simple, and high art. If you think a 5-year-old could have created this, think again.


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## chinacats (Aug 16, 2016)

rick_english said:


> If you think a 5-year-old could have created this, think again.



Really? It's 4 ******* bars lined up...they may not know what it means, but I'm just sayin'.:lol2:


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## Kristoff (Aug 16, 2016)

I think I will get ridiculed by a lot of the other posters here but I agree with OP. Kato's kanji while not ugly does look very inelegant. While I agree with the saying "beauty in simplicity", there's no such beauty here. In Asian culture, we look at the whole piece of work when it comes to art, the knife might cut great, might even be a perfect cutting knife, but the kanji doesn't complement the knife. The kanji gives me the feel of being stamped on rather than engraved. Hence I never entertain with the thought of getting one. Just my $0.02


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## DamageInc (Aug 16, 2016)

To be honest, Kato's kanji is really bad, and I was once scorned for bringing my 240mm workhorse to a knife collectors meeting. Some guy even said it wasn't worth anything while dangling some bowie knife around for all to see.

I only cut with my Kato knives in private now, cooking alone in my kitchen, carefully packing the knife away before dinner is served. I shouldn't force people to cringe by having the knife within eyesight.


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## Chicagohawkie (Aug 16, 2016)

:shots:


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## YG420 (Aug 16, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> To be honest, Kato's kanji is really bad, and I was once scorned for bringing my 240mm workhorse to a knife collectors meeting. Some guy even said it wasn't worth anything while dangling some bowie knife around for all to see.
> 
> I only cut with my Kato knives in private now, cooking alone in my kitchen, carefully packing the knife away before dinner is served. I shouldn't force people to cringe by having the knife within eyesight.



LMAO! Well done, sir! :rofl2:


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## Timthebeaver (Aug 16, 2016)

As comical/risible as this thread is, if you are troubled by the writing on a kitchen tool a rethink of your priorities may be in order.


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## Soccerman (Aug 16, 2016)

Timthebeaver said:


> As comical/risible as this thread is, if you are upset by the writing/branding on a kitchen tool a rethink of your priorities may be in order.


 
Not upset about anything, just objective information from people who use the characters or Kanjis.


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## Soccerman (Aug 16, 2016)

Kristoff said:


> I think I will get ridiculed by a lot of the other posters here but I agree with OP. Kato's kanji while not ugly does look very inelegant. While I agree with the saying "beauty in simplicity", there's no such beauty here. In Asian culture, we look at the whole piece of work when it comes to art, the knife might cut great, might even be a perfect cutting knife, but the kanji doesn't complement the knife. The kanji gives me the feel of being stamped on rather than engraved. Hence I never entertain with the thought of getting one. Just my $0.02



Another testimony from an Asian!


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## Kristoff (Aug 16, 2016)

Soccerman said:


> Another testimony from an Asian!



What do you think of the kanji from gesshin kagekiyo and ittetsu series? I am liking them a lot and have been talking about them a fair bit recently with Jon. Too bad can't afford to get both lol


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## Soccerman (Aug 16, 2016)

Kristoff said:


> What do you think of the kanji from gesshin kagekiyo and ittetsu series? I am liking them a lot and have been talking about them a fair bit recently with Jon. Too bad can't afford to get both lol



I think, Jon has a very high standard of his knives, take a look of his brand "&#26376;&#24515; the meaning is beautiful and the engraving is also excellent! The handwriting style is very nice, the way they engraves &#19968;&#37444; and &#26223;&#28165;, it looks powerful to me.


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## Kristoff (Aug 16, 2016)

Soccerman said:


> I think, Jon has a very high standard of his knives, take a look of his brand "&#26376;&#24515; the meaning is beautiful and the engraving is also excellent! The handwriting style is very nice, the way they engraves &#19968;&#37444; and &#26223;&#28165;, it looks powerful to me.



&#26376;&#24515; is gorgeous. The technique in engraving is top notch. It feels so smooth and like done in a single motion. &#20687;&#27969;&#27700;&#19968;&#27171;&#12290;not sure if you get what I mean


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## zetieum (Aug 16, 2016)

@Soccerman: thanks a lot for this information: it is something I never though of. I am not Asian, so I am not able to judge the quality of the writing of a Kanji. I think your point makes perfectly sense and I will take a more closer look on the quality of the Kanji in the future. Although, I am not sure I will be able to distinguish the differences. As it has been already mentioned, a knife is not only the performance, etc. To my eye knowing that a Kanji is well made gives a knife an extra value even if I am not expert enough to appreciate it fully.


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## Soccerman (Aug 16, 2016)

Kristoff said:


> &#26376;&#24515; is gorgeous. The technique in engraving is top notch. It feels so smooth and like done in a single motion. &#20687;&#27969;&#27700;&#19968;&#27171;&#12290;not sure if you get what I mean


I totally get it, IMO, that's the purpose of hand engraving, it has plus point for a knife, not a minus point


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## Soccerman (Aug 16, 2016)

zetieum said:


> @Soccerman: thanks a lot for this information: it is something I never though of. I am not Asian, so I am not able to judge the quality of the writing of a Kanji. I think your point makes perfectly sense and I will take a more closer look on the quality of the Kanji in the future. Although, I am not sure I will be able to distinguish the differences. As it has been already mentioned, a knife is not only the performance, etc. To my eye knowing that a Kanji is well made gives a knife an extra value even if I am not expert enough to appreciate it fully.



Thank you for you kind reply Zetieum, you're a open minded person, if you need help identify the quality of the hand-engraving kanjis, I'm sure many people can help on this forum


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## malexthekid (Aug 16, 2016)

Soccerman said:


> Not upset about anything, just objective information from people who use the characters or Kanjis.



Your objective information is the opinion of 734 (ok 736 if we include the couple of people from here that agreed with you)... For starters, I would hope that someone with an enigneering understood objective vs subjective... aka opinion by its nature is subjective, even a consensus of opinion is still subjective, it may be adopted, but it is still subjective.... Next point, as for you comments about most (or was it all) Chinese knife collectors... Are you saying that out of the population of China, 734 people represent the entire collective of knife collectors in China, let alone a consensus of the entire population as you are claiming.

I couldn't give two hoots about the quality of the Kanji on his knives, because I am buying not on the kanji, but on the knife... Probably just like you couldn't give two hoots about my opinion on the rudimentary lettering on your revered bowie. 

And and PS, just because your language is PG doesn't mean your mouth and content isn't as potty mouthed as the people you are calling out.


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## Kristoff (Aug 16, 2016)

Soccerman said:


> I totally get it, IMO, that's the purpose of hand engraving, it has plus point for a knife, not a minus point



I agree with you 100%. on a side note, the kanjis on the gesshin kagekiyo and ittetsu are done by professional engravers hence such high quality.


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## Devon_Steven (Aug 16, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> just because your language is PG doesn't mean your mouth and content isn't as potty mouthed as the people you are calling out.



Well indeed, the OP's decorum (and reasoned argument) levels slipped rather drastically in the hours following my earlier posts!

:scratchhead:


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## Devon_Steven (Aug 16, 2016)

Soccerman said:


> well I'm not a noble guy, I'm just a normal guy, I fight back when people do personal attack.



You should try to respond with more dignity than those who were rude to you, however.

Regarding reasoned argument, if your concern is for the aesthetics of the kanji, why do you write that "...it will be humiliating to show off a kato knife to a real knife collector"?

Unless 'real' knife collectors attach no value to kitchen knives, then this is a rather vacuous statement.

Also, I don't think that comparisons between your Kyle Royer Bowie knife and the essentially utilitarian Kato gyuto hold much substance.





Otherwise, Google Translate says that &#20117;&#24213;&#20043;&#34521; = 'frog'; and for that insult, I commend you 

[of course, calling someone a frog in Asian culture might be far worse than doing it in Western culture]

[unless it's directed at a French person, of course, then it's pretty bad!]


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## DamageInc (Aug 16, 2016)

Ladies and gentlemen, the stats are in.

After extensive research testing thousands of samples through random selection, it has been concluded that Mr. Kiyoshi Kato's kanji is written in the manner of a human child in the age range of between 4 and 6 years.

Due to this magnitudinous revelation within the scientific community, a committee has been assembled in order to find a solution and what the next actions taken should be. Some say to dispose of the knives at the nearest steel recycling center, while other more modest proposals include simple electrical tape over the Kanji area. But even the simplest solutions can present followup issues. One ethical conundrum has arisen from the fact that some of Mr. Kiyoshi Kato's knives have kanji on both sides of the blade, meaning that owners of these specimens need to use a considerable amount of tape greater than those with mono-sided kanji. Others say that the solution itself would be ineffective, as the kanji indentations are quite deep, meaning that a silhouette could still remain visible if tried in practice.

The committee has stated that they will release an official statement sometime in Q4 2018.


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## Soccerman (Aug 16, 2016)

Devon_Steven said:


> You should try to respond with more dignity than those who were rude to you, however.
> 
> Regarding reasoned argument, if your concern is for the aesthetics of the kanji, why do you write that "...it will be humiliating to show off a kato knife to a real knife collector"?
> 
> ...



I totally accept what you're saying 
BTW, if you open wikipedia, you can see the definition of &#20117;&#24213;&#20043;&#34521; &#65306; a person of very limited outlook and experience . That's the meaning of this word in China We don't specifically just imply someone is a frog ...


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## Badgertooth (Aug 16, 2016)

Have I missed a trick? Japan and China have a similar script but different enough cultures for the possibility to exist that a sino-centric forum might be looking at it from a Chinese aesthetic which is differently nuanced to the Japanese aesthetic. Perhaps with the interceding few centuries since the script was introduced to a completely different culture it's style and how it is received in Japan might have changed to how it's appreciated in China.

"Another way to tell if a calligraphy is Japanese or Chinese is by analyzing the complexity of the characters. The Japanese have opted to simplify a lot of Kanji characters over the years. If a character looks really complex, it is most definite the Chinese version, since, again, the Japanese prefer a simpler version. These variations can be subtle in most cases by simplifying the amount of strokes in the characters while maintaining the essence and overall look. In other cases, the characters may change quite drastically."

So it may well be that it looks overly reduced or childlike to you and your forum and that's what you were trying to say. I wonder if 700 Japanese people would share that sentiment? What's become clear is that a significant enough sample from this forum who can't tell the difference and bought our Katos for reasons of function and form it's just a cool, authentic-looking adornment or branding that isn't going to diminish from our appreciation of these knives or Kato san's effort and direction of his skill in making an edged tool.


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## Devon_Steven (Aug 16, 2016)

Interesting.

This is what I got from wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapodoton):

Anapodoton
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An anapodoton (from the Greek anapodosis: "without a main clause") is a rhetorical device related to the anacoluthon.[how?] It is a figure of speech or discourse that is an incomplete sentence, consisting of a subject or complement without the requisite object. The stand-alone subordinate clause suggests or implies a subject (a main clause), but this is not actually provided.[1]

As an intentional rhetorical device, it is generally used for set phrases, where the full form is understood, and would thus be tedious to spell out, as in "When in Rome [do as the Romans]." or "If the mountain won't come to Muhammad [Muhammed will go to the mountain]."

Anapodoton is extremely common in Classical Chinese and languages that draw from it, such as Japanese, where a long literary phrase is abbreviated to just a sufficient allusion. For example, Zhuangzi's phrase &#20117;&#40707;&#19981;&#21487;&#20197;&#35486;&#26044;&#28023;&#32773;&#25304;&#26044;&#34395;&#20063; "A frog in a well cannot conceive of the ocean." meaning "people of limited experience have a narrow world view" is rendered as &#20117;&#24213;&#20043;&#34521; "A frog in a well" in Modern Chinese, and as I no naka no kawazu (&#20117;&#12398;&#20013;&#12398;&#34521;?, A frog in a well) in Modern Japanese, abbreviating I no naka no kawazu taikai o shirazu (&#20117;&#12398;&#20013;&#12398;&#34521;&#22823;&#28023;&#12434;&#30693;&#12425;&#12378;?, A frog in a well does not know the great ocean.)


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## Sharpchef (Aug 16, 2016)

Intressting discussion ......

maybe the left kanji was written by the older brother (maybe 8 years old ).

Greets Sebastian.


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## XooMG (Aug 16, 2016)

Perhaps when I get off work, I'll delve into this in a way that is more palatable and can be appreciated without needing to engage in trench warfare. There has been a lot of needless hostility, and a lot of it seems avoidable.


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## bennyprofane (Aug 16, 2016)

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise, they're almost impossible to get as it is.


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## Devon_Steven (Aug 16, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Maybe it's a blessing in disguise, they're almost impossible to get as it is.



There's now going to be market for blank EYOK Katos.










_Engrave Your Own Kanji_


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## panda (Aug 16, 2016)

Lmao @ devon's signature.


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## Bill13 (Aug 16, 2016)

Well besides some of the comments that got personal I found this thread to be enlightening. I had never thought of this before. I see what the OP is trying to state and it reminded me of some of Dave's early knives where he was having a hard time getting the etching right on his blades. It did not affect the cutting performance but personally I waited until he had it down.
Apple is great at this. They spend an enormous amount of time designing elegant packaging for their products. Does your iPhone work better because it came in this beautiful box, of course not. They realize that they are selling not just a phone but an entire experience. Now I see that that can include the care you take while putting your kanji on your knife. 

Of course, a lack of care (or skill) on the kanji might also just be that he is a rebel, and does not care what most Asians would think about his knives or kanji, afterall it does not change how well it cuts..

What I would like to know is what makes his kanji sloppy or poorly done?


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## PieMan (Aug 16, 2016)

I backfill every Kato I have with metal filler and have them engraved using only proper 1800's latin script.


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## CB1968 (Aug 16, 2016)

what a thread!!, we as a community are obviously running out of useful topics to discuss, maybe we should start a worst Kanji thread, or possibly a best Kanji thread, i think I understand Soccermans point however I am not Asian and honestly have never thought about the Kanji on my knives in this way, I also appreciate his point of view and opinion.
Personally I am far more interested in grind, edge retention, F&F and sharpenabilty than I am in the specifics of the Kanji.
But that's just me and each to their own.


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## Devon_Steven (Aug 16, 2016)

Bill13 said:


> What I would like to know is what makes his kanji sloppy or poorly done?



I'm not so sure that it's sloppy or poorly done... the five-year-old thing seems to be a bit of hyperbole on the part of the OP. I think the point is that it stylistically rather simplified / basic / unadorned in comparison with some other knives.



Like this rather_ than this_


(unfortunately, KKF doesn't support any fancier fonts than the 'than this' part of my post)


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 16, 2016)

Also, the properly raised are neither disgusted easily by language, nor by what the censored word means.


...


Also, while it might be ugly or not viewed through the lens of someone knowing that writing culture, to us westerners it just looks quite stylish... and it is not inauthentic either (if anything, we'd be viewing it through inauthentic eyes lol... and trying to rectify that would actually make us inauthentic  ).


...

If a maker used that slightly-psyched-kid script for his makers mark ... hey if the blade is good, i'd find it literally stylish  A knife for these "a mortar full of herbs and spices is one way to make spite and resentment taste delicious" days.... 


...

Wonder how asians view the Takeda heart, by the way (that is something that is subtly goofy to europeans at least... but not in a bad way, more like "hey he is so serious about his craft that even his goofy aspects are enlisted into it")?


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## Devon_Steven (Aug 16, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Also, the properly raised are neither disgusted easily by language, nor by what the censored word means.



Well, I'm not disgusted by the word, but I'd never call you, or anyone else on a public forum, by such a name.

Here in the UK that word is amongst the highest ranking (maybe even the highest ranking) of taboo words there are. I think that goes for the US too.



LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Wonder how asians view the Takeda heart, by the way (that is something that is subtly goofy to europeans at least... but not in a bad way, more like "hey he is so serious about his craft that even his goofy aspects are enlisted into it")?



Good point!


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## rami_m (Aug 16, 2016)

XooMG said:


> Perhaps when I get off work, I'll delve into this in a way that is more palatable and can be appreciated without needing to engage in trench warfare. There has been a lot of needless hostility, and a lot of it seems avoidable.



Please do. I look forward to it and I completely agree. 

We are all supposed to be a friendly bunch. While the OP initial language was a bit strong, I would have given him the benefit of doubt. I don't really agree with him but sheesh he didn't really deserve any of this.


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## TurboScooter (Aug 16, 2016)

The amount of Japanese that do shodou at a decently high level isn't super common, at least as far as I know from my own experiences.

Even if one does shodou, I wouldn't necessarily think the ability to write with a brush and ink would translate to engraving in steel with a chisel and hammer.

If we're going to complain about ugly writing on knives, I think the roman character fonts used by Asian companies tends to be ugly. For example, the ZDP-189 stamp used by Sukenari and the font the Taichung, Taiwan factory that Spyderco uses. I'm not a fan of a ton of stuff all over my knives period, but for me performance is more important than looks, and me complaining about ugly fonts on the internet probably will result in exactly nothing, so to me it's whatever. I mean, yeah I can wish they'd go with a more stylish font, but wish in one hand... If it's that important to you, spend your money elsewhere.


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## Bill13 (Aug 16, 2016)

CB1968 said:


> what a thread!!, we as a community are obviously running out of useful topics to discuss, maybe we should start a worst Kanji thread, or possibly a best Kanji thread, i think I understand Soccermans point however I am not Asian and honestly have never thought about the Kanji on my knives in this way, I also appreciate his point of view and opinion.
> Personally I am far more interested in grind, edge retention, F&F and sharpenabilty than I am in the specifics of the Kanji.
> But that's just me and each to their own.



I think the larger point trying to be made is that in Asian cultures the care you take in "applying" your kanji is reflective of the care you took in making the knife, they are not separable (is that a word?).


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## daveb (Aug 16, 2016)

Back the truck up.

In my view the OP's premise is interesting but predictably polarizing. Nothing wrong with that, I kind of like it. But a better understanding of cause and effect is in order.

Personal attacks on others based on their opinions is not acceptable here, by either side of the discussion, regardless of your opinion and how absolutely right it is.

I did a quick clean up on aisle 9. Some will think something should not have been edited, some will find things they think should have been edited.

Deal with it.

Hugs.


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## alterwisser (Aug 16, 2016)

To a passive observer this is one of the best threads ever. Highly amusing and disturbing at the same time.

On another note: what is a Kato?


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## daveb (Aug 16, 2016)

I think he worked for the Green Hornet. Like Batman's Robin.


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## brainsausage (Aug 16, 2016)

Soccerman said:


> Not valid point, here we are talking about Asian culture &#26360;&#36947; or &#26360;&#27861;, based on this, Kato's kanji is ugly.
> 
> I don't judge Picasso, if I really wanna say something about Picasso, I would learn some knowledge about Western painting first.



There are no valid points when discussing aesthetics. Purely subjective, and opinion based.


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## Iggy (Aug 16, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> There are no valid points when discussing aesthetics. Purely subjective, and opinion based.



Totally agree with that lus1:

Edit: I personally have nothing against the Kanji on my Katos. What really annoys me are stamped etched or lasered Kanjis (Masamoto, Konosuke, Suisin, Sukenari) on knives that really deserves better.
Most beautiful Kanji IMHO so far on my knives is on my Gesshin Ittetsu Honyaki Sujihiki.


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## brainsausage (Aug 16, 2016)

For the record, I'm a big fan of Kato's kanji. I enjoy the bold, angular, rustic feel to it. It reminds me of the depiction of sound effects in some of the manga I've read. And no- I can't read kanji, but some of the translated work I've read has left those depictions in rather that replacing them with stylized english.


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## orange (Aug 16, 2016)

TurboScooter said:


> Even if one does shodou, I wouldn't necessarily think the ability to write with a brush and ink would translate to engraving in steel with a chisel and hammer.



Yup. I am on the same page as you are.

Just to provide some info about "Chinese" script styles to other forum members who are not familiar with this..... those who studied (&#26360;&#34269; or &#26360;&#36947 them know there are five different traditionally recognized styles and other personal derivatives from them;
Chinese characters started as the form of hieroglyph like ancient Egyptian writing and as time passed they evolved and represented in simpler/more cursive style and in the end more legible form, thus, the standard style emerged. What I see with Kato's engraving is that one may say it is not in the form of widely recognizable &#21517;&#31558;, however, his engraving is done closely (with the limitation of chisel and hammer on steel) in the standard style (&#26999;&#26360;&#39636 mixed with the clerical style (&#63928;&#26360;&#39636, thus, resulting boldness and strength in his kanji.
His kanji is no way close to child's play nor being ugly looking. Rather I would say his engraving is beautifully done and it is unique among Japanese knife brands that I have seen. I have six kato's and won't be ashamed (  ) to show the kanji to anyone.


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## maxim (Aug 16, 2016)

Kato have used that stile of Kanji on his swords tools and other cutting tools that sold quite well in Japan, even before i discovered him and brought him to West. 
He actually do use quite long time on his kanjis, i have a video of it on youtube. On the stile of his Kanji he just told me he love simple type and his ancestors used the same type so he use it as well. He do knives and other stuff complex kanji can be simple and strong. 
In west we have super many expensive makers that use different Kind of typography some can even look childish but it is up to them to choose 

Look at Mastro Livi Razors logo no way it is good written but i like it anyway and it makes it kind of Unique 
It is nothing to do with Paint job or Mercedes emblem Chisel work on the Kanji is by fare one of the best i have seen even better then Shigefusa or others Deep and fine, it is artist choose and if you dont like it you will not the knife either so dont by it


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## daveb (Aug 16, 2016)

Well said Maxim, Thanks.


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## mikedtran (Aug 16, 2016)

maxim said:


> Kato have used that stile of Kanji on his swords tools and other cutting tools that sold quite well in Japan, even before i discovered him and brought him to West.
> He actually do use quite long time on his kanjis, i have a video of it on youtube. On the stile of his Kanji he just told me he love simple type and his ancestors used the same type so he use it as well. He do knives and other stuff complex kanji can be simple and strong.
> In west we have super many expensive makers that use different Kind of typography some can even look childish but it is up to them to choose
> 
> ...



+1

Also I'm all for people not buying Katos, I want them all for myself =p


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## jessf (Aug 16, 2016)

The halo effect can have interesting outcomes when it comes to consumer opinions. When i was in Italy i was surprised at how few vespers and fiats i saw and how many other great brands i hadnt even heard of filled the streets. My own lack of knowledge aside, both those brands are touted as quintessentially euro. 

So, i wonder, what would we find in the average Japanese household kitchen, and would it differ from the average japanes perfessional kitchen.


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## cheflivengood (Aug 16, 2016)

I was confused when I got my Mareko Maumasi. I thought his name might be Wareko Maumasi becuase of the blade stamp and I must have been saying it wrong all this time. Then I remembered that a logo is a logo is a logo and if he wanted to stamp a large phallic object on there I would still respect the hell out of him for being able to accomplish every aspect of the blade making process by himself.....and I would still use the hell out of that dick-blade :tease:


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## alterwisser (Aug 16, 2016)

jessf said:


> The halo effect can have interesting outcomes when it comes to consumer opinions. When i was in Italy i was surprised at how few vespers and fiats i saw and how many other great brands i hadnt even heard of filled the streets.



That's because Fiat sucks and the Italians know it (good luck Chrysler!)

No, but honestly: if you talk to Italians, they do drive Fiats... But it's not BELOVED. Most of the models are lower levels and only with the 500 it has recently began to change brand perception in lots of markets. If you can afford it, you buy different cars. Alfa Romeo is a desired (Italian) brand, Ferrari is obviously beloved (and unrealistic for most). 

Those who can afford it often drive Beemers, Audi and Mercedes...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 16, 2016)

"wanted to stamp a large phallic object on" ...

Somebody might then confuse it with a popular midrange German maker...


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## XooMG (Aug 16, 2016)

FWIW, this isn't a real comparison.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 16, 2016)

Are you trying to express something akin to the difference between the BBC hitchhiker episodes and the much later movie?


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## WildBoar (Aug 16, 2016)

So, if the actually disk/ movie in each of those were the same, would you likely choose the one on the left? (price being equal, of course)

And if the one on the left costs 10% more due to the 'prettier' cover, which one would you pick?


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## XooMG (Aug 16, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> So, if the actually disk/ movie in each of those were the same, would you likely choose the one on the left? (price being equal, of course)
> 
> And if the one on the left costs 10% more due to the 'prettier' cover, which one would you pick?


The pic was facetious and not deserving of pedantry.


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## JBroida (Aug 16, 2016)

I think a lot of people are missing the point here. No one is staying that Kato knives suck. In fact, many people enjoy them and the way they cut. What was being said is that, from someone who's native language utilizes the same calligraphy, the engraving is not aesthetically well done. I really dont understand why this had to become such a big argument. Most of the people arguing agains this arent even arguing against what was put forth. And for those that do indeed disagree, how hard is it to accept that native chinese and japanese speakers seem to agree that the engraving is not aesthetically pleasing (which again has nothing to do with the performance of the knife). It also doesnt mean you arent entitled to your own opinion. You may like the kanji and that can just be that.


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## AllanP (Aug 16, 2016)

JBroida said:


> I think a lot of people are missing the point here. No one is staying that Kato knives suck. In fact, many people enjoy them and the way they cut. What was being said is that, from someone who's native language utilizes the same calligraphy, the engraving is not aesthetically well done. I really dont understand why this had to become such a big argument. Most of the people arguing agains this arent even arguing against what was put forth. And for those that do indeed disagree, how hard is it to accept that native chinese and japanese speakers seem to agree that the engraving is not aesthetically pleasing (which again has nothing to do with the performance of the knife). It also doesnt mean you arent entitled to your own opinion. You may like the kanji and that can just be that.



I don't like the whole Chinese card being pulled, and people using it like an objective fact. I am Chinese, I grew up doing some calligraphy when I was younger for a couple of years and by no means an expert. In fact I would say most people in China have very limited knowledge on the subject because it is not taught in the school system, it's usually a side hobby for older people or those who paint traditional Chinese art. 

I mean how many people in America know anything about calligraphy, people just print now a days or type, it's the same way in China. One of my relatives is a Chinese teacher in Beijing and she always says penmanship is getting worse and worse, and calligraphy is dying out in general. The fact the OP uses such sweeping and absolute statement about the engravings is what irks me, especially when he is preaching to a mostly non-Chinese crowd who can't really tell the difference anyway and just have to take his word for it. 

Chinese Calligraphy is subjective, higher levels of calligraphy is even more so. Even experts have differing opinions on these subjects, just like any subjective interpretations.

Kato's Kanji is of a simple and clerical font, it's not fancy cursive like a lot of engravings out there, maybe that's why by comparison people don't prefer it and thinks it's "ugly". But OP goes over the top with hyperbole's and make it sound like an objective fact that it is a equivalent child's writing which is simply not true if you've ever seen how the general public writes.

Again I am by no means any more of an expert on the subject than OP, I have seen people with penmanship like Kato's engravings, they are usually of an older crowd, it's a clear and clerical font to write things in Chinese.


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## SousVideLoca (Aug 16, 2016)

JBroida said:


> I think a lot of people are missing the point here. No one is staying that Kato knives suck. In fact, many people enjoy them and the way they cut. What was being said is that, from someone who's native language utilizes the same calligraphy, the engraving is not aesthetically well done. I really dont understand why this had to become such a big argument. Most of the people arguing agains this arent even arguing against what was put forth. And for those that do indeed disagree, how hard is it to accept that native chinese and japanese speakers seem to agree that the engraving is not aesthetically pleasing (which again has nothing to do with the performance of the knife). It also doesnt mean you arent entitled to your own opinion. You may like the kanji and that can just be that.



Yeah, this might go down in history as one of the most pants-on-head retarded threads in KKF history. 

We're talking about cursive here. Not everyone knows how to write in cursive, not everyone likes cursive. But the bottom line is, every goddamn one of us can look at cursive and, with no effort at all, distinguish between the practiced and artistic form that our moms used to use when signing their checks, and the sloppy-ass cursive we'd stumble through when learning in third grade. Suggesting that those squiggly little tapeworms of penmanship ineptitude are "aesthetically pleasing" to someone who actually knows even the slightest thing about cursive is laughably obtuse. The only people who see beauty in the crappy cursive of a third grader are the third graders parents; that is, people with an emotional investment in the artist.

In other words: Kato fanboys don't know why you're laughing at their kid's refrigerator art.


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## WildBoar (Aug 16, 2016)

XooMG said:


> The pic was facetious and not deserving of pedantry.


Actually I was being serious. All else being equal I think many westerners would pick the one on the left. But if it took extra time (thus resulting in a higher price for the product) would the fact that it looked nicer but did not impact the performance sway you to buy the more expensive (but more attractive) product?


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## cheflivengood (Aug 16, 2016)

I'm just upset that I said dick-blade and I didn't get a laugh or get in trouble.


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## JBroida (Aug 16, 2016)

AllanP said:


> I don't like the whole Chinese card being pulled, and people using it like an objective fact. I am Chinese, I grew up doing some calligraphy when I was younger for a couple of years and by no means an expert. In fact I would say most people in China have very limited knowledge on the subject because it is not taught in the school system, it's usually a side hobby for older people or those who paint traditional Chinese art.
> 
> I mean how many people in America know anything about calligraphy, people just print now a days or type, it's the same way in China. One of my relatives is a Chinese teacher in Beijing and she always says penmanship is getting worse and worse, and calligraphy is dying out in general. The fact the OP uses such sweeping and absolute statement about the engravings is what irks me, especially when he is preaching to a mostly non-Chinese crowd who can't really tell the difference anyway and just have to take his word for it.
> 
> ...



fair enough... does it help that a number of the people i have talked to about this and a number of people in my life have studied calligraphy and art more seriously within japan, and some are actually professional calligraphers. Also, a number of professional engravers have expressed these opinions to me. It still has nothing to do with performance, but it does come from a well educated and well informed place in terms of the industry, culture, and history. And while that kind of font might be common in china, it is much less so in Japan. It does, however, closely resemble the kind of engraving often used on the tangs of swords to indicate the maker, place it was made, and date it was made. However, that is often hidden, and thus is not designed to be aesthetically pleasing as a visible engraving.

Please keep in mind that while i am saying all of this, I do not mean that Kato's knives are inferior because of it. Its simply an observation and statement of opinion based on my education and experience.


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## brainsausage (Aug 16, 2016)

This may be the most ridiculous thread I've taken part in on this, or any other forum.


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## katana110 (Aug 16, 2016)

i thing the kanji from Hinoura Tsukasa is beautiful&#65281;powerful&#65281;


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## Asteger (Aug 16, 2016)

This thread has reminded me of the comically inept tattoos you maybe used to see more of in the past, where people who obviously don't know a lick of Chinese or Japanese get a few characters from either language installed on their bodies, clearly by someone who also doesn't know the languages either. The owners might like it, but it looks bad to those who can read it or at least know better. I think one part of the OP's reaction was related, that Kato's kanji might look cool and exotic to lots of the extra-Japan knife world, but not to others like him. Fair enough.

The whole point with Kato knives is that they cut and are tools, and I don't think they're intended at all to catch the eye. I like his kanji. Solidly chiseled on and simple, and so suits the knife. Something more stylised wouldn't suit. Also much prefer his engraving than stamps, such as on kasumi Shigs with their very aesthetic kanji. 

Disliked earlier elements in the discussion about how 'Asians' would see things. Which Asians? The majority of people living in Asia certainly wouldn't read kanji, but if you want to talk of Japanese or Chinese speakers then that's another thing, and of course they can be found around the world.


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## AllanP (Aug 16, 2016)

JBroida said:


> fair enough... does it help that a number of the people i have talked to about this and a number of people in my life have studied calligraphy and art more seriously within japan, and some are actually professional calligraphers. Also, a number of professional engravers have expressed these opinions to me. It still has nothing to do with performance, but it does come from a well educated and well informed place in terms of the industry, culture, and history. And while that kind of font might be common in china, it is much less so in Japan. It does, however, closely resemble the kind of engraving often used on the tangs of swords to indicate the maker, place it was made, and date it was made. However, that is often hidden, and thus is not designed to be aesthetically pleasing as a visible engraving.
> 
> Please keep in mind that while i am saying all of this, I do not mean that Kato's knives are inferior because of it. Its simply an observation and statement of opinion based on my education and experience.



That's completely understandable, I have no knowledge of engravings on knives and what the kanji is suppose to be traditionally. Maybe it's just odd that regular looking characters are engraved on knives when usually it's more aesthetically styles of kanji. I can also see that professional in engravings have a completely different way of judge and looking at things vs the rest of us.

When I first got into knives, I never understood why people raved Kato's kanji's either, I didn't think it look particularly aesthetically pleasing, because it is very very so standard and basic. But it has grown on me a little bit because it is so simple looking.


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## Timthebeaver (Aug 16, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> This may be the most ridiculous thread I've taken part in on this, or any other forum.



+1. Helmet-worthy.


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## JBroida (Aug 16, 2016)

FWIW, here are 2 examples of engraving in the style commonly used by sword smiths (which is the style the Kato knives are intended to replicate):


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## Ydj32 (Aug 16, 2016)

Well, to be fair he's a knife smith not a writer


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## malexthekid (Aug 16, 2016)

JBroida said:


> I think a lot of people are missing the point here. No one is staying that Kato knives suck. In fact, many people enjoy them and the way they cut. What was being said is that, from someone who's native language utilizes the same calligraphy, the engraving is not aesthetically well done. I really dont understand why this had to become such a big argument. Most of the people arguing agains this arent even arguing against what was put forth. And for those that do indeed disagree, how hard is it to accept that native chinese and japanese speakers seem to agree that the engraving is not aesthetically pleasing (which again has nothing to do with the performance of the knife). It also doesnt mean you arent entitled to your own opinion. You may like the kanji and that can just be that.



Jon I think to a degree this is a case of not what you say but how you say it.

The first and subsequent post from the OP were quite arrogant and only got worse when he was called out on it.

Add to that stating something that is subjective as fact is never going to end well, put in some stupid hyperbole and you get this.

If the OP had posted with informative content and tone (aka like AllanP's content) i think it would have been received differently.


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## tkern (Aug 16, 2016)

Heh heh dick-blade


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## AllanP (Aug 16, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Jon I think to a degree this is a case of not what you say but how you say it.
> 
> The first and subsequent post from the OP were quite arrogant and only got worse when he was called out on it.
> 
> ...



Nah, I called OP some pretty horrible things that got deleted by the mods, I am not proud of that and glad the mods hid it from the public.

Either way, I feel like I started the drama by being very rude. Should have been a much more civil conversation


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## alterwisser (Aug 16, 2016)

cheflivengood said:


> I'm just upset that I said dick-blade and I didn't get a laugh or get in trouble.



Dick-blade [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


----------



## preizzo (Aug 16, 2016)

Dick blade 
&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## preizzo (Aug 16, 2016)

You are the Best!!!


----------



## daveb (Aug 16, 2016)

Dick blade. Missed it.

OK, you're in trouble now. :knife:


----------



## alterwisser (Aug 16, 2016)

y32dsm said:


> He or she just needed some attention from us.



Worked like a charm


----------



## cheflivengood (Aug 16, 2016)

daveb said:


> Dick blade. Missed it.
> 
> OK, you're in trouble now. :knife:



Sweet, sweet satisfaction


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## HomeCook (Aug 16, 2016)

I'm curious if the OP Soccerman owns or has ever used a Kato, and what he thinks of the grind, heat treat, and overall performance. There are some knives on this forum termed "rustic" with a less than ideal appearance and F&F that are highly respected for performance. Teruyasu Fujiwara comes to mind. Then there are the flashy knives roundly derided. Aura Chef Chakra anyone? 
Why would the Kanji be of any significance when most can't tell the difference, or even care? Do Katos not sell well in Japan? Are they ridiculed?


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 16, 2016)

You guys and your pen15 jokes lol. This thread may set a record for the most responses in the least amount of time. 

Back on topic:


JBroida said:


> FWIW, here are 2 examples of engraving in the style commonly used by sword smiths (which is the style the Kato knives are intended to replicate):



Since Kato is also a licensed swordsmith, I suppose this may be intentional?

Either way, I personally like how the kanji stands apart from others seems fitting for his knifemaking style. I've had quibbles with Shigefusa Kasumi kanji where parts are incomplete, but the most recent gyuto was.


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## sharptools (Aug 16, 2016)

I think there's a cultural aspect of this that may be missed by a lot of people and really may be understood by people who have gone through the traditional process of learning to write chinese/kanji. It actually goes beyond aesthetics. For example, when learning traditionally to write a character, you are supposed to follow the exact set of strokes in the right order and direction, of the right length and balance of the character. This isn't about calligraphy, this is simply writing of the characters correctly* you don't need to learn calligraphy to learn to write properly in chinese/kanji*. It isn't wrong because it is ugly, it is ugly because it is wrong. We're pretty much taught to be bothered by it.



> If I wrote like Kato in elementary school, my parents wouldnt let me slept until I can figure it out how to write.



I wasn't really able to put into words what the issue was until OP posted the line above. That really strikes close to home.


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## Lucretia (Aug 16, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Add engineers to that list... personally being one and having read a lot i think surgeon's/doctor's handwriting looks like perfect calligraphy in comparison



Something that's changed quite a bit with the advent of computer graphics. Back in the dark ages when drawings were done by hand, engineers' printing was extremely legible (for the most part. Mine was always sub-par.) A class in drafting and lettering was required to get the degree. 

As far as cursive writing goes, there's a big furor in our state right now because cursive writing is being dropped from the curricula of public schools. People don't write by hand much anymore, and the kids are taking other classes rather than learning cursive writing. They can't read things in cursive--and how do they sign their names?


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## alterwisser (Aug 16, 2016)

sharptools said:


> I think there's a cultural aspect of this that may be missed by a lot of people and really may be understood by people who have gone through the traditional process of learning to write chinese/kanji. It actually goes beyond aesthetics. For example, when learning traditionally to write a character, you are supposed to follow the exact set of strokes in the right order and direction, of the right length and balance of the character. This isn't about calligraphy, this is simply writing of the characters correctly* you don't need to learn calligraphy to learn to write properly in chinese/kanji*. It isn't wrong because it is ugly, it is ugly because it is wrong. We're pretty much taught to be bothered by it.
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't really able to put into words what the issue was until OP posted the line above. That really strikes close to home.



I think that is some of the best insight of this whole thread! Thank you. I think a lot of us underestimate certain cultural aspects that are so unfamiliar to us that they seem strange.


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## karif (Aug 16, 2016)

Any help translating this kanji soccerman? Looks like a drunk 5 year old engraved it.


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## malexthekid (Aug 16, 2016)

Lucretia said:


> Something that's changed quite a bit with the advent of computer graphics. Back in the dark ages when drawings were done by hand, engineers' printing was extremely legible (for the most part. Mine was always sub-par.) A class in drafting and lettering was required to get the degree.
> 
> As far as cursive writing goes, there's a big furor in our state right now because cursive writing is being dropped from the curricula of public schools. People don't write by hand much anymore, and the kids are taking other classes rather than learning cursive writing. They can't read things in cursive--and how do they sign their names?



I should day i totally agree.... Though i will say print is different from writing. My old boss came through from being a drafter to engineer so when drawing properly by hand his print was amazing... but when writing review comments on drawings etc his writing was atrocious.

I am the same... i can print ok well when drawing but my handwriting (done in cursive) is woeful... i even struggle to comprehend it at times.


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## malexthekid (Aug 16, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> I think that is some of the best insight of this whole thread! Thank you. I think a lot of us underestimate certain cultural aspects that are so unfamiliar to us that they seem strange.



However i also say that it isn't entirely applicable because you can't create kanji engraving how it is meant to be done. There is a disconnect between written kanji and engraved, it is unfortunate part.

And maybe Kato never learnt it properly because of his education who knows... 

Are people saying he shouldn't ever write it because he wasn't taught it properly? Are people saying his product is inferior because of it?

That is why I think AllanP provided the best response (ignoring some language use) he bothered to tell people the difference between scripts... essentislly from my understanding like cursive vs print in english writing. As opposed to saying "his handwriting is that of a 5 year old". Which it clearly isn't.


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## Silky (Aug 16, 2016)

I'm just a newbie to the entire kitchen knife scene, but I hoped to offer my limited experiences with kanji writing. From my own observations, Japan, for certain things, seems to place a lot of emphasis on not just the results of something, but also on every aspect of the process (for example, in Japanese archery the way you walk, pull the bow, and aim is just as important if not more so than if you actually hit the bulls-eye). I had a chance to study calligraphy in the calligraphy club at my Japanese high school for a short time, and there were very strict rules and procedures about what goes where, how far apart the different strokes needed to be, how long strokes were compared to others in order to make an aesthetically pleasing image (at least at the beginner level as more experienced artists took liberties or changed things). This is not to diminish the cutting, grind, or other aspects of Kato's knives or the validity of other's like or dislike of the simple nature of his kanji, and I don't feel versed enough in writing kanji to make my own judgment on the subject. But I can somewhat understand how some might not like the aesthetics of the kanji if they dislike the simplistic nature of it or the way the strokes are done, similar to how some might like or dislike a printscreen logo on a knife.


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## JayGee (Aug 16, 2016)

that is a really dirty bathroom


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## Ruso (Aug 16, 2016)

FFIW it might be engraved by his child, and if so, it's even more amazing.

It's his mark, his trademark in a way, if this had bothered him or his customers I am pretty sure he would change it. And if his Kanji is apparently so ugly that it bothers "normal person" sight, I am sure he is well aware about it. ;-/ And as Maxim mentioned, this kanji has history behind it.

There are many logos and trademarks that are not aesthetically pleasant, Apple's apple is a good example. But oh well...


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## MAS4T0 (Aug 16, 2016)




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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 16, 2016)

Man I want a katana!


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## brainsausage (Aug 16, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Man I want a katana!



I've been saying that since I was 7 years old. My Doi Hayate Takobiki fills the void. 

For now...


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## Mute-on (Aug 16, 2016)

Samurai slays octopus with Takobiki ...
Nope. Doesn't really do it


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## Sambal (Aug 16, 2016)

Been away from KKF for a while but here are my two bits and one and a half cents:

There are differences between calligraphy as art and calligraphy as applied art. I'm not informed nor educated sufficiently in Chinese nor Japanese to judge Kanji calligraphy as art though I have seen and appreciated many that I think are fine examples. However calligraphy as applied art has some other considerations that has to do with design and how it is used for branding, communication and product placement. 

Excellently rendered calligraphy is one thing when it's on an art scroll but may be not so appropriate on a certain product. Likewise with typography. A beautiful classic font like Garamond may come across as old fashioned and 'wrong' for a product or communication that requires a more modern typeface. On the other hand the much reviled typeface Comic Sans may be ugly and well, comical but it nonetheless may be absolutely just right when a funny, casual and garish look is required.

While I'll defend the OP's right to his/her opinion regarding the calligraphy on Kato knives I do not agree with it. Being very familiar with the particular 'personality' of my Workhorse having used it regularly for over a couple of years I do like the calligraphy on the Kato. The "straight from the shoulder, I think like a soldier" sort of style in the calligraphy is indeed so very appropriate to the characteristics of what makes the Kato what it is. 

As for those who think that calligraphy on knives is totally superfluous and dismiss it as nonsense and a waste of time just consider this: a painstaking mirror finish may be an obsession to some but totally unnecessary to others. The same for beautifully crafted handles. We should all be allowed our own personal aesthetic obsessions.


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## skewed (Aug 16, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> Those who can afford it often drive Beemers, Audi and Mercedes...



Just a quick FYI: you ride a beemer, drive a bimmer. Really common mistake.

and now back to the question of aesthetics...


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## alterwisser (Aug 16, 2016)

skewed said:


> Just a quick FYI: you ride a beemer, drive a bimmer. Really common mistake.
> 
> and now back to the question of aesthetics...



Stupid enough that someone came up with these "nicknames" anyway, LOL. It's a B ... M ... W! Bayerische Motoren Werke!


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## cheflivengood (Aug 17, 2016)

JayGee said:


> that is a really dirty bathroom



:rofl2:


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## ptolemy (Aug 18, 2016)

Wow, amazing discussion... I especially loved Jon's comparison.. haha. I suppose the only flaw in his example is that people get Ferrari's to get chicks, I hardly imagine people getting Kato for that reason, unless to easily dispose of chicks hahahaha

I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer here, as for me, it doesn't matter, as I know it'll perform like a thoroughbred, but for someone, it could be a deal maker. Only valid vote here, is with your wallet


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 18, 2016)

Well, but you get a Kato to cook - and there seems to be a market for dudes that cook


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## Chuckles (Aug 18, 2016)

Can at least agree that Japanese knives are better than American knives?


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## XooMG (Aug 18, 2016)

[Deletedpolitical content]


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## Bill13 (Aug 18, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> Can at least agree that Japanese knives are better than American knives?


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## jessf (Aug 18, 2016)

Has anyone confirmed if kato knives are as popular in japan as they appear to be outside of japan? at the very least on this forum.


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## TheDispossessed (Aug 18, 2016)

No way in hell.


jessf said:


> Has anyone confirmed if kato knives are as popular in japan as they appear to be outside of japan? at the very least on this forum.


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## daveb (Aug 18, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> Can at least agree that Japanese knives are better than American knives?



For you and me yes. But if Wallyworld didn't sell knives, my friends wouldn't have any...


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## Beau Nidle (Aug 18, 2016)

A more accurate comparison would be if Devin, Marko or Bob Kramer engraved their makers mark on their blades in what looked like a childs scrawl. Someone not used to roman letters might not see an issue with it and even like it, but it would probably irk the hell out of the westerners.


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## XooMG (Aug 18, 2016)

Beau Nidle said:


> A more accurate comparison would be if Devin, Marko or Bob Kramer engraved their makers mark on their blades in what looked like a childs scrawl. Someone not used to roman letters might not see an issue with it and even like it, but it would probably irk the hell out of the westerners.


It's a bit deeper than that...but not too far off. The niche market that this forum represents will not care too much about typography, though it does seem to abhor plastic ferrules.

An analogy I shared privately with a few folks was a book geek (not a reader, but one who sniffs books in the store) buying a unique superior-quality leatherbound, handwritten copy of a favorite classic (say, Lord of the Rings) and the cover is deeply debossed using Arial with bad kerning.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 18, 2016)

So does american walmart actually carry any american made knives?

Not a joke question, I don't live in America. Here in Germany there will be various cheap Solingen based brands mixed with imports at a normal supermarket, and the usual Zwilling and Henckels at upscale department stores... oh, and both places will sometimes have the classic Herder carbon paring knives that Cliff Stamp is so fond of.


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## chinacats (Aug 18, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> So does american walmart actually carry any american made knives?
> 
> Not a joke question, I don't live in America. Here in Germany there will be various cheap Solingen based brands mixed with imports at a normal supermarket, and the usual Zwilling and Henckels at upscale department stores... oh, and both places will sometimes have the classic Herder carbon paring knives that Cliff Stamp is so fond of.



What's an American knife? For that matter, what's a walmart?


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## Cheeks1989 (Aug 18, 2016)

If you want something that refine why would you buy from a Japanese maker? They just view things differently when it comes to aesthetics.


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## daveb (Aug 18, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> So does american walmart actually carry any american made knives?
> 
> Not a joke question, I don't live in America. Here in Germany there will be various cheap Solingen based brands mixed with imports at a normal supermarket, and the usual Zwilling and Henckels at upscale department stores... oh, and both places will sometimes have the classic Herder carbon paring knives that Cliff Stamp is so fond of.





chinacats said:


> What's an American knife? For that matter, what's a walmart?



The bigger question is what's a Cliff Stamp? :scratchhead:


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## alterwisser (Aug 18, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> So does american walmart actually carry any american made knives?



Haha... NOTHING in a Wal Mart is American made. A certain "politician" these days would probably claim that also goes for the employees ...!

Anyway, (cynical) jokes aside: while Wal Mart carries some (few) American made products, most is made in China and while I haven't checked, I'm 99.99999% sure that goes for all knives sold at Wal Mart, at least the kitchen knives. Depending in the location of the store, they might have some more upscale (well, kind of) hunting knives that MIGHT be made in the US.


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## Chuckles (Aug 18, 2016)

He doesn't seem to have technique issues. The style must be a choice.


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## JBroida (Aug 18, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> He doesn't seem to have technique issues. The style must be a choice.



Usually engravings like that are not done by the Knifemaker, but rather a specialist who does only that kind of engraving fwiw


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## DamageInc (Aug 18, 2016)

[video=youtube;oFJ44qz9_to]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFJ44qz9_to[/video]

Odd that this has not been posted yet.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 18, 2016)

@chinacats I guess a specialty pastry knife of German manufacture, used to prepare and cut black and white cookies (which are called Amerikaner here).


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## YG420 (Aug 18, 2016)

Just curious if anyone has or has seen or has any pics of his swords?


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## Castalia (Aug 18, 2016)

Great video that seems to end the supposition that five year olds are engraving Kato's knives (unless the five year olds have very large wizened hands). :scratchhead:To my eye he does have a very simple style with his character engraving and if you like it buy it. Simple is a good aesthetic. If not, buy another maker's knives to match your artistic sensibilities.


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## Steampunk (Aug 18, 2016)

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, who's face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is not effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasm, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who in the end knows the triumph of high achievement, and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold souls who know neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt, April 23rd, 1910.


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## jessf (Aug 18, 2016)

TheDispossessed said:


> No way in hell.



Is this sarcasm or an actual response?


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## TheDispossessed (Aug 18, 2016)

sincere response. his hunting knives may be sought after but i doubt his kitchen knives are a hot commodity in japan.


jessf said:


> Is this sarcasm or an actual response?


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## jessf (Aug 18, 2016)

TheDispossessed said:


> sincere response. his hunting knives may be sought after but i doubt his kitchen knives are a hot commodity in japan.



Ok, thanks for clarifying. if thats the general consensus then perhaps my Vesper euro washed analogy might hold water in this context. For me, this explains a lot about people's perception of Katos kitchen knives, and by association his writing. many things japanese seem to benfit from the halo effect. In the same way many things from china see negative perceptions despite changing trends. We are seeing fewer things made in China as their standard of living increases. Manufacutring is moving to the next lowest wage nation which is indonesia or some place like that. 

What japan is doing more and more is emplying chinese "interns" which is just a euphomism for unpaid or underpaid labour. It makes up for a lack of japanese labour force do to low population growth. Would it irk people to find out if their "japanese" blade passed through the hands of a chinese "intern" at some point in the manufacturing process?


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## TheDispossessed (Aug 18, 2016)

jessf said:


> Would it irk people to find out if their "japanese" blade passed through the hands of a chinese "intern" at some point in the manufacturing process?



A little off topic here, but we're on page 17 of a thread that IMO started with a totally reasonable perspective in the first place. 
I used to be extremely wrapped up in the romantic story of the old japanese blade smith, these days I'm less invested in that and more just the quality of the tool itself, independent of it's origin. 
And FWIW the most mind bogglingly well manufactured thing I have ever owned in my life was made in china, an iPhone.
Cheers


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Aug 18, 2016)

The most interesting thing I found out in this thread is there are Kato fanboys. Never heard of him until a month ago when I started reading this forum again.


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## jessf (Aug 18, 2016)

TheDispossessed said:


> A little off topic here, but we're on page 17 of a thread that IMO started with a totally reasonable perspective in the first place.
> I used to be extremely wrapped up in the romantic story of the old japanese blade smith, these days I'm less invested in that and more just the quality of the tool itself, independent of it's origin.
> And FWIW the most mind bogglingly well manufactured thing I have ever owned in my life was made in china, an iPhone.
> Cheers



I agree, but also think we're still on target with the intent of the OP's original post, which was, cultural experience can have an impact on your perspective and perceived value of objects. I'd like to think that more experience means a broader appreciation of aesthetics and things in general; for some it has a narrowing effect and only reinforces a bias they came with. 

Now I'm running off topic. What's more mind boggling about iphone manufacturing in China is the suicide nets around the foxconn manufacturing plant not having a negative impact on iphone, HP, Sony etc sales. The narrative on blood diamonds, elephant ivory etc changed the face of those trades, we haven't quite reached that level of consumer empathy for the deplorable conditions in which much of what we buy is made.

In short, Kato knives cut, and the writing is neato.


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## Ruso (Aug 18, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> He doesn't seem to have technique issues. The style must be a choice.



It's obviously a choice. If you have a poor handwriting I bet you know it. And if you decide to use it, you know how it looks.
Anyways, Maxim explained it earlier that this type is a choice, but I guess most people do not bother to read 18 pages. 

The Kanji looks amazing to my western eyes.

As for the car comparison goes, it will be more like a Vauxhall. Good looking car but with such an ugly logo, the designer must of been drunk...


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## Chuckles (Aug 18, 2016)

I'm not proud of it but I have read every post in this thread. I was hoping it would unravel in a more entertaining way. I don't even like the knives.


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## panda (Aug 19, 2016)

it started off entertaining and then the nerding commenced and ruined it all.


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## zetieum (Aug 19, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @chinacats I guess a specialty pastry knife of German manufacture, used to prepare and cut black and white cookies (which are called Amerikaner here).



Oh man. I love those. Back when I was living in Dresden, there was a bakery where they were wunderbar. Now, in Cologne, they are not so good.






:threadjacked:


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 19, 2016)

So what... this thread is getting all the attention, keeping much else from happening on the forum, so to escape the silence, you have to be here...


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## jessf (Aug 19, 2016)

Look to the cookie.


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## TheDispossessed (Aug 19, 2016)




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## preizzo (Aug 19, 2016)

I used all day my Kato at work and I was simply happy seen how does it cuts.!! 
Even one single moment I was thinking in the engraving, this Mas is an artist, his knife are simply perfect cutter, don't give a **** about the Kanji! 
More knife for me to buy if. Don't like them!! &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 19, 2016)

I was the first to comment on this thread lol


tjangula said:


> Sell all your Katos to me




I haven't received a single PM, so I think it's fair to say everyone likes their Katos... which is good 'cause I have another J-Nat in the works


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## preizzo (Aug 19, 2016)

&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128578;&#128523;


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## Badgertooth (Aug 20, 2016)

I kinda forgot I had this example. 
This came out a little less slick than I thought it would. And I naively thought I'd get something like &#12458;&#12488;


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## XooMG (Aug 20, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> I kinda forgot I had this example.
> This came out a little less slick than I thought it would. And I naively thought I'd get something like &#12458;&#12488;


Hahahaha...sorry.


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## TurboScooter (Aug 20, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> I kinda forgot I had this example.
> This came out a little less slick than I thought it would. And I naively thought I'd get something like &#12458;&#12488;



Should have been &#12458;&#12488;&#12488;&#12488;

&#65288;&#12510;&#12510;&#12510;&#12510;&#65289;


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## zetieum (Aug 20, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> I kinda forgot I had this example.
> This came out a little less slick than I thought it would. And I naively thought I'd get something like &#12458;&#12488;
> [/URL]



haha . That is a good example of why I think the initial subject of this thread is very pertinent.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 20, 2016)

So you didn't mean to write "Otto" on it?


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## preizzo (Aug 20, 2016)

I asked to Fujiwara same thing, engraved my name, and it end up really ugly (matteo it s my name). 
I will post a picture later tonight.


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## jessf (Aug 20, 2016)

Man, i was having dreams about engraving. This thread is like playing hours of tetris.


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## DanHumphrey (Aug 20, 2016)

I can't even make it through this whole thread. Good lord.

Is it like a baseball fan complaining that football jerseys use block letters for their names rather than script?


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## JBroida (Aug 20, 2016)

no... its more like a native speaker of Japanese (or in this case, a person who's native language shares the written form with Japanese, along with native japanese speakers and some people who have extensively studied japanese) telling people who dont speak/read/write japanese that the writing they see is not nice looking writing, without commenting on the performance of the knife or any other aspect of the knife in any negative or positive way. Wait, its not like that... thats exactly what happened here. I cant explain the rest of what happened here though.


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## DanHumphrey (Aug 20, 2016)

Ok. I still can't be arsed to care either way though.

Fortunately the Kato bug hasn't gotten to me yet anyway.


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## JBroida (Aug 20, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> Ok. I still can't be arsed to care either way though.
> 
> Fortunately the Kato bug hasn't gotten to me yet anyway.



pretty much... those who like the way the knives work or look can still continue to do so, and those that dont can continue to be that way too


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## rami_m (Aug 21, 2016)

JBroida said:


> pretty much... those who like the way the knives work or look can still continue to do so, and those that dont can continue to be that way too



But I am glad the topic got discussed. I just hope the way the OP got treated doesn't discourage people from raising interesting points in the future.


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## Bill13 (Aug 21, 2016)

rami_m said:


> But I am glad the topic got discussed. I just hope the way the OP got treated doesn't discourage people from raising interesting points in the future.



lus1: And Jon, if you don't mind I would be interested in a primer of what makes a kanji "good". Is their a website that you know of that goes over the basics?


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## JBroida (Aug 21, 2016)

Bill13 said:


> lus1: And Jon, if you don't mind I would be interested in a primer of what makes a kanji "good". Is their a website that you know of that goes over the basics?



maybe... i'll have to look into it. But i dont think there are many website that talk about what makes good handwriting vs bad handwriting in the sense that you are asking about (even in english).


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## pkjames (Aug 21, 2016)

we were told some principles back in primary school on how to write a good character, it's how each stroke should be and how they are arranged (with in a square). Overtime you just develop the sense of good Chinese character (kanji). A lot of Japanese woodworking tools have exceptional kanji engraving. Knives are generally less careful on these.


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