# The Grind II



## Salty dog (Aug 6, 2011)

[video=youtube;LF2VFo1_yrQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF2VFo1_yrQ[/video]


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 6, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> [video=youtube;LF2VFo1_yrQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF2VFo1_yrQ[/video]


 
I got more that I asked for. Thanks!


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## Salty dog (Aug 6, 2011)

Only one thing surprised me doing this video. I fully expected the Rader to stick. I have to wonder if the mustard finish had anything to do with it?


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## oivind_dahle (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks for posting 

Where is your Masamoto Honyaki Wa-Gyuto 240mm?


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## Salty dog (Aug 6, 2011)

I can't find it at the moment


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 6, 2011)

I have been using potatoes and apples (wedging) for the ultimate grind test as well. Mustard finish sounds intriguing. Those knives are likely hand rubbed to 1000-1500 grit, so it is either a grind or a finish.

M


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## jgraeff (Aug 6, 2011)

not sure i completely understand the grind having to do with food sticking to the blade... can someone explain further


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 6, 2011)

Hey, Salty, 
how about a spine shot of that Mizuno other knives that have done on potato?

M


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## Salty dog (Aug 6, 2011)

Don't have access to my camera at the mo but here is an idea of the grind on the left side. It's relatively flat compared to the right. The suminigashi is the same way.







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## echerub (Aug 6, 2011)

Nice. Simple and straightforward but interesting and useful. Thanks, Salty!

'Course this also means I need to keep improving my sharpening skills to maintain the geometries put in by each maker


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 6, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> Don't have access to my camera at the mo but here is an idea of the grind on the left side. It's relatively flat compared to the right. The suminigashi is the same way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
So are the bevel asymmetric? Left is flat and right is more convex? Not sure I am following you. 

M


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## Salty dog (Aug 6, 2011)

that's it exactly. (not completely flat as seen in the photo)


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 6, 2011)

Cool, thanks. Isn't your Masamoto suji also asymmetrically ground?

M


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## Salty dog (Aug 6, 2011)

Ever so slightly. With the short blade it makes it harder to tell. Super thin edge, I think they accomplish that with the left side ending just shy of the actual edge. So the right side makes up more of the edge. If you can picture what I'm saying. I'm talking miniscule differences.


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## Dave Martell (Aug 6, 2011)

Excellent video - thanks for taking the time to do this!

Now we're all going to be testing all our knives on potatoes.


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## echerub (Aug 6, 2011)

First, tomatoes. Now, potatoes. Do we have another "-ato" to go to next?


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 6, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> Ever so slightly. With the short blade it makes it harder to tell. Super thin edge, I think they accomplish that with the left side ending just shy of the actual edge. So the right side makes up more of the edge. If you can picture what I'm saying. I'm talking miniscule differences.


 
Yes I can. I actually ended up (accidentally) with a similar grind. Need to put a handle and do a potato cutting test.

M


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## markk (Aug 6, 2011)

thank you for posting this. the first was good and this one is even better.


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## Messy Jesse (Aug 6, 2011)

Wasn't surprised with the Mizunos... that's what they're known for. Cool vid. Thanks Salty.


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## jason (Aug 6, 2011)

Are the Mizuno's asymmetrical? Thanks for the video! I was surprised by the results.


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## tk59 (Aug 6, 2011)

jason said:


> Are the Mizuno's asymmetrical? Thanks for the video! I was surprised by the results.


 
What exactly were you surprised about?

One thing to keep in mind about the Mizunos is they are really quite thick. Salty's had the suminagashi for quite some time and the honyaki was thick to begin with. Thickness accentuates the effects of the convex face. The "better-finished" Carters, for example are very thin. Many are under 2mm thick at the spine. There very little room for convexing.


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## UglyJoe (Aug 6, 2011)

Mizuno is fantastic. Far and away my favorite knife (never had the chance to try the Masamoto, though).


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## jason (Aug 6, 2011)

tk59 said:


> What exactly were you surprised about?
> 
> One thing to keep in mind about the Mizunos is they are really quite thick. Salty's had the suminagashi for quite some time and the honyaki was thick to begin with. Thickness accentuates the effects of the convex face. The "better-finished" Carters, for example are very thin. Many are under 2mm thick at the spine. There very little room for convexing.


 
The results were interesting, that's all. I don't think that these knives were an apples to apples comparison, but I liked the results. What was the fourth knife, by the way?


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## NO ChoP! (Aug 6, 2011)

I think we've all been craving a Salty vid for some time; this was very informative. Didn't you take the Masamoto on a road trip? Have you seen it since then? I was really interested in seeing it in action as well... Makes a good excuse for a "the Grind III", I guess....


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## Salty dog (Aug 6, 2011)

jason said:


> The results were interesting, that's all. I don't think that these knives were an apples to apples comparison, but I liked the results. What was the fourth knife, by the way?



The fourth was Michael Rader.

TK is right about the thickness of the Mizunos. 

Good news: I found the Masamoto. I was starting to worry.


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## Eamon Burke (Aug 6, 2011)

Excellent vid. Lots of knives doing the exact same thing the same way. Gotta love pure information.


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## stevenStefano (Aug 6, 2011)

Great video and I think I'll try this in work tomorrow with my Masamoto and Watanabe. Curious to try my Watanabe because despite being thick at the spine it cuts very well so I wonder how it would do in this test, if Mizunos do well due to their thickness


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## wenus2 (Aug 6, 2011)

I love the no nonsense vids. Lots of good info in there.

The closing line was great, lol.


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## Salty dog (Aug 6, 2011)

I have a few gyutos left so I'll be doing a Grind III with the Masamoto TC Laser and others.
I'll also give the Carter another go, along with his funayuki.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 6, 2011)

Maybe you can include mine in Grind IV? 

M


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## tk59 (Aug 6, 2011)

Looking forward to it.


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## JohnnyChance (Aug 6, 2011)

Salty how is it you don't own a single Devin gyuto? ITK or custom. You should buy a ton of tickets for your own DT charity raffle.

Also, which ones "felt" the best going through the potato?


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## Salty dog (Aug 7, 2011)

I love my DT scimitar and would have bought the ITK proto if given the chane. But to be perdectly honest......as much as I love Devin, I'm not convinced.

It's really not a good test for feel. Maybe Grind III will be cutting the potato in an efficient manner.

But the short answer will always be the Mizuno suninigashi. We have a relationship.


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## NO ChoP! (Aug 7, 2011)

Why does the "the Grind IV" sound like a Spice channel movie I've seen before......


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## Salty dog (Aug 7, 2011)

I guess what the comparisons demonstrate is how a convex grind can assist in cutting vegys and the like. Where flat and thinner knives not being able to have as much contour are handicapped. Although they may excell at other tasks. It's just another piece of the puzzle.



[video=youtube;FXviazyA0yg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXviazyA0yg[/video]


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 7, 2011)

I remember that funayuki and remember the bevels on it. I think that is your answer as why it is efficient at separating. I think on Masamoto and the other Carter, the bevels are blended into the blade and this creates less of a wedge. Thoughts?


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## UglyJoe (Aug 7, 2011)

I think you right Marko. One of the reasons I like wide bevels so much. My Miz has a bevel starting about halfway down the blade face, and the edge bevel is also pretty steep and wide (about 8mm or so). Then I blend both the edge bevel and the wide bevel together al la Jon's advice for traditional single bevels. The end result is a convex complex bevel with a fairly abrupt transition to the main blade thickness. The blending together of the edge bevel and the wide bevel make the knife cut as though it were much thinner that it actually is, and this convex bevel plus the transition between the wide bevel and the main blade thickness really keeps food from sticking at all. It's the best geometry I've tried for a "chef" knife, and I think it has a lot in common with the Funayuki in Salty's video above - in fact it's probably the same thing, though I don't know if Salty takes the extra step of blending his edge bevel and that wide secondary bevel together.


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## NO ChoP! (Aug 7, 2011)

So, being the Carter gyuto was to be the replacement for your beloved all-around'er Mizuno, are you a little disappointed in its performance? 

I like where you're going with these new vids; gives people a chance to really see the differences of different makers, and at your expense not ours! LOL


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## chazmtb (Aug 7, 2011)

You are the best Scott! Saying like it is. No fillers.


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## Dave Martell (Aug 7, 2011)

Good stuff Scott


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## tk59 (Aug 7, 2011)

This very demonstration along with its performance on numerous other cutting tasks side by side against a dozen well-regarded knives is what led me to post my glowing comments about Carter knives a couple months ago. There are a lot of nice knives out there but there is no better designed all around knife than a Carter SFGZ funayuki, as far as I know.


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## stevenStefano (Aug 7, 2011)

I tried this in work today with my Masamoto and my Watanabe because they are the 2 gyutos I am using at the minute. The Watanabe did very well, no stickage at all, but there was a little with the Masamoto, about the same as in your video


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## stereo.pete (Aug 8, 2011)

Scott,

I must say that was a badass video, straight and to the point. You've sold me on convex edges the last time we talked and you just completely reaffirmed that conversation we had. Thanks.

Regards,

P.S. How's the A-Team? Tell Junior and Cacho I said hello.

Pete


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## jmforge (Aug 8, 2011)

Scott, how far up the blade are the non-sticking knives convexed?


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## heirkb (Aug 8, 2011)

So would there be a way to make a knife's surface less sticky knife through sharpening? I get a bit of annoying sticking on my Shig so I'd like to find a way to decrease it. I know some people sharpen double bevel knives with very wide hamaguri bevels. Would something along those lines help?


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## Salty dog (Aug 8, 2011)

stereo.pete said:


> Scott,
> 
> I must say that was a badass video, straight and to the point. You've sold me on convex edges the last time we talked and you just completely reaffirmed that conversation we had. Thanks.
> 
> ...


 
Jr is on the wagon and Cacho is as steady as always.

@jm, Interesting enough the funayuki's is relatively low and fairly pronounced. I'll find a photo and try and point it out. 

As for as the Shig goes, in practical use I don't have a problem with sticking. You may want to consider altering your technique to compensate. I find a couple things help, velocity, a nice steady rythym, firm grip, (on hard vegy's) and cant the blade ever-so-slightly so the blade is leaning toward the product. That way if you do get sticking the next slice should push the previous up the blade and fall back and away from your next slice.


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## Salty dog (Aug 8, 2011)

A side note: Later in the day I made a cuke and tom salad, after the first few slices of tomato I realized the knife was pretty dull after doing the potato thing. It was the Carter gyuto. One of those cheaper ones that CKTG recently sold. So for comparison I tried the Masamoto to see how sharp it still was. It held up much better and still felt fresh.


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## Aphex (Aug 8, 2011)

While i understand the principles of the convex bevel in reducing food sticking, could that cause new problems with wedging if the bevels are too pronounced?

It seems to me that it must take a smith with great talent and understanding to produce a knife that both stops the food from sticking, but still slides through the product like it's not there.


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## tk59 (Aug 8, 2011)

Aphex said:


> 1. While i understand the principles of the convex bevel in reducing food sticking, could that cause new problems with wedging if the bevels are too pronounced?
> 
> 2. It seems to me that it must take a smith with great talent and understanding to produce a knife that both stops the food from sticking, but still slides through the product like it's not there.



1. Definitely. It is a trade-off. Each knifemaker has his/her take on where they decide the sweet spot is.
2. Nah. You need two things: a shoulder on the secondary bevel and thinness behind the edge. The problem is most knifemakers haven't even seen an awesome cutter so they have no concept of how thin it needs to be behind the edge and at the tip. Even if they have seen an excellent knife, they may not be familiar with different cutting techniques so they lack the ability to test their own knives. What every kitchenknife maker needs is someone who cuts like a pro and is willing to sit there for a few hours with a pile of onions. Grind a little and dice an onion. Grind some more, dice an onion, etc. They'd all produce an excellent knife in 2 hrs of grinding if they have any skill at all. That's how A-type owners turn their POS blades into fearsome cutting machines, lol. The skill comes into the equation when we're talking about fit and finish and speed.


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## WildBoar (Aug 8, 2011)

Thanks for making these videos -- the comparisons were great. Good to see how well Del's tweaks worked, and that the Rader had less stick then one would think looking at the blade. Mr. Fowler might want to incorporate some Del-like tweaks to his blades going forward. I have no experience with a Carter, so it was educational seeing how well the one knife did, as the profile always struck me as odd (yet all the owners really love them).


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## mpukas (Aug 8, 2011)

Great series of vid's Salty. Thanks for taking the time to share them! 

Murray should personally come and give a big fat handy, 'cuz he's gonna start getting lots of requests for his funayuki's f/ the youtube knife-fan crowd.


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## mpukas (Aug 8, 2011)

In order to better understand the geometries of the convex edges being discussed, I'd like to take a crack at drawing a section of a knife. Accurately. To scale. 

What I need is some basic dimensions of a knife. Let's take the section through the middle of the knife. Such as: width at spine, height of blade, height of bevel - primary & secondary - above the cutting edge, thickness of blade at bevel, thickness at 1/2 way point, etc. 

One problem I have is I can't post attachments. :scratchhead:


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## SpikeC (Aug 8, 2011)

Sure you can.


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## mpukas (Aug 8, 2011)

SpikeC said:


> Sure you can.


 
No - I can't post attchements. When I make a new thread, in the box where it says the permission I have, it say I cannot post attachments. When I make a reply, I don't get the manage attachment button. Is it a post count thing?


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## Salty dog (Aug 8, 2011)

@MP, You can stare at a knife all day. It won't tell you nothin but "I'm pretty".


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## Dave Martell (Aug 8, 2011)

mpukas said:


> No - I can't post attchements. When I make a new thread, in the box where it says the permission I have, it say I cannot post attachments. When I make a reply, I don't get the manage attachment button. Is it a post count thing?




http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?64-Image-File-Uploading


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## mpukas (Aug 8, 2011)

Dave Martell said:


> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?64-Image-File-Uploading


 
Ah, Thanks Dave! mpp


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## mpukas (Aug 8, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> @MP, You can stare at a knife all day. It won't tell you nothin but "I'm pretty".


 
Yeah, I get that Scott. It's just the way my head works - when I can see something drawn, I get a better understanding of what's going on. I can visualize different grinds, but I'm not sure if what's in my head is really what's on the knfe.


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## Salty dog (Aug 8, 2011)

I know, it's like guys and microscopes. I don't get it. Pick it up and feel it, cut with it, live with it, die with it.


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## tk59 (Aug 8, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> I know, it's like guys and microscopes. I don't get it. Pick it up and feel it, cut with it, live with it, die with it.


 
If you want to know how to make a great edge and you don't want to muck around the BS, a microscope helps a lot, initially. Once you know how to obtain a good edge, it is less important. 

If you want to make a great knife the first time, you don't want to dick around reinventing the wheel, you get some specs. If you want to cook something right the first time, you get a good recipe. It's all the same, really.


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## El Pescador (Aug 8, 2011)

tk59 said:


> If you want to know how to make a great edge and you don't want to muck around the BS, a microscope helps a lot, initially. Once you know how to obtain a good edge, it is less important. If you want to make a great knife the first time, you don't want to dick around reinventing the wheel.



+1 i have a jewelers loupe and it has made a big difference.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 8, 2011)

Here is a little trade secret - a magnifying visor. Hands free and lets you see the edge very clearly.


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## tk59 (Aug 8, 2011)

But that's like cheating, Marko...


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 8, 2011)

Why? It doesn't set the angle for you.  You periodically look through the visor at the bevel for any irregularities, such as width, burr, etc. I find it very useful, particularly because my right eye has 80% vision, so looking at tiny bevels strains my both eyes.


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## Salty dog (Aug 9, 2011)

tk59 said:


> If you want to know how to make a great edge and you don't want to muck around the BS, a microscope helps a lot, initially. Once you know how to obtain a good edge, it is less important.
> 
> If you want to make a great knife the first time, you don't want to dick around reinventing the wheel, you get some specs. If you want to cook something right the first time, you get a good recipe. It's all the same, really.


 
That was a friendly jab gently pointed in your direction.:tease:


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## Marko Tsourkan (Aug 9, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> That was a friendly jab gently pointed in your direction.:tease:


 
I am the last person who wants to reinvent a wheel, but I do like to tweak it a little bit.  So far, it seems to have worked.


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## tk59 (Aug 9, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> That was a friendly jab gently pointed in your direction.:tease:



Well, I definitely felt it! :bat:


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## jmforge (Aug 9, 2011)

After reading this and other threads, I have a question. With the talk about thinning out the blade above the edge and having a shoulder up the bevel to prevent sticking, but one that is blended, it almost sounds to me like you guys consider the ultimate geometry on a dual bevel blade to be something akin to a VERY shallow hollow grind that goes part of the way up the blade and then has the shoulder rounded over. I am talking about a hollow grind like one that has maybe been made with a wheel the size of a large tractor tire. Much shallower than the grind on the back side of a single bevel Japanese knife. Have any of you ever thought of it in that way?


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## JohnnyChance (Aug 9, 2011)

You mean like a wheel like this?

[video=youtube;aU6u80Hyw5Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU6u80Hyw5Y&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

I have thought about it that way, kinda like a half-hollow or quarter-hollow razor grind. Problem is most makers don't have giant wheels (MC does, but does he grind his blade faces with them or just edge bevels?), so they achieve similar grinds in other fashions.


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## jmforge (Aug 9, 2011)

Maybe bigger than that. Those are the size of the wheels you see in the OLD restored shops in places like Solingen and the other videos Ihave seen of Japanese shops and the guys still moves the blades around a bit to get flatter grinds on them. That looks like the size of wheel or maybe a bit larger that I would want to use to grind the back of a single bevel knife. If you want to see a cool video, there is one out there somewhere of a guy in Solingen grinding a sword blade on a wheel that size or maybe bigger, but it is an OLD water powere wheel and he is wearing this huge metal contraption that I can only describe as "grinding boots" The look like the legs of a robot from a bad 1950's sci fi flick and the guys uses them hold the blade steady and rocks forward into the wheel. I wonder of you could get a similar effect to what the guy is doing in this video with say a plten that is curved to simulate say a 48" wheel? It would require a steadier hand than I have right now. I would still have to do a LOT of hand sanding. LOL


JohnnyChance said:


> You mean like a wheel like this?
> 
> [video=youtube;aU6u80Hyw5Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU6u80Hyw5Y&feature=player_detailpage[/video]
> 
> I have thought about it that way, kinda like a half-hollow or quarter-hollow razor grind. Problem is most makers don't have giant wheels (MC does, but does he grind his blade faces with them or just edge bevels?), so they achieve similar grinds in other fashions.


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## tk59 (Aug 9, 2011)

It would be interesting to try out a blade with a very slightly concave secondary bevel. The obvious problem with that design is the trade-off of either inherent weakness of the blade near the edge or more thickness overall. I wouldn't buy a knife with a concave secondary because I would be unable to maintain that secondary bevel and I have knives that cut with virtually no effort and separate food well already. I do have a Glestain which is built like a traditional Japanese knife where one entire face of the knife is hollow ground and the other is convex. That is a nice design but most people don't have either the patience or the aptitude to learn how to use a knife ground in that fashion.


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## Dave Martell (Aug 9, 2011)

That could be why Murray's knives do so well in this test, he's using his large water wheel to grind in the bevels making a slight concave.


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## tk59 (Aug 9, 2011)

Dave Martell said:


> That could be why Murray's knives do so well in this test, he's using his large water wheel to grind in the bevels making a slight concave.


 
I have two Carter 240 SFGZ's sitting here. I've checked all along the bevels of both. One of them has a small (~3 cm worth) area toward the heel on one side of the knife that is slightly concave. The rest is essentially flat or roughly convex (due to several flat areas that are somewhat blended together).

And yes, these will outcut everything else I've tried other than a modified Del knife I also have sitting here.


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## jmforge (Aug 9, 2011)

I spoke with Nathan, the guy who was selling those curved platens on Blade forums. He has a 36" version left over but no 48's until he makes the next batch maybe early in 2012. That got me to thinking about maybe one as shallow as a 60" or even 72" radius. The 36 and 48 inchers give you what might be called the classic old school Solingen or Sheffield grind like you were using a big wheel, but since the blades we are talking about are so much thinner, I would be inclined to look at an even larger radius. The 36" one might be good for doing the backside hollow grind on a single bevel knife.


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## jmforge (Aug 9, 2011)

tk59 said:


> I have two Carter 240 SFGZ's sitting here. I've checked all along the bevels of both. One of them has a small (~3 cm worth) area toward the heel on one side of the knife that is slightly concave. The rest is essentially flat or roughly convex (due to several flat areas that are somewhat blended together).
> 
> And yes, these will outcut everything else I've tried other than a modified Del knife I also have sitting here.


 that blending of flats is how Japanese sword polishers set the bevels which are normally "zero" ground with a slightly convex profile. But since we are talking about a few hundred dollars for a finished knife as opposed to a few thousand just for the polish job, the blending will naturally be a bit more rudimentary on a kitchen knife. The effect is the same, I would think.


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## tk59 (Aug 9, 2011)

******* said:


> I spoke with Nathan, the guy who was selling those curved platens on Blade forums. He has a 36" version left over but no 48's until he makes the next batch maybe early in 2012. That got me to thinking about maybe one as shallow as a 60" or even 72" radius. The 36 and 48 inchers give you what might be called the classic old school Solingen or Sheffield grind like you were using a big wheel, but since the blades we are talking about are so much thinner, I would be inclined to look at an even larger radius. The 36" one might be good for doing the backside hollow grind on a single bevel knife.



If you want to know how it's done with platens, ask Butch. He's made several already.


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## jmforge (Aug 9, 2011)

Yes, but Butch actually knows how to make them and has the skills and tools to do it himself. I am somewhat inept when it comes to machine shop stuff. LOL


tk59 said:


> If you want to know how it's done with platens, ask Butch. He's made several already.


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