# Commission WIP



## Kippington

I'm working on a new knife and found something that you guys might find interesting! 

If you have a strong distal taper on a knife, like this:







Grinding the primary bevel at a consistent angle makes the shinogi travel in a funky line as the spine gets thinner and the bevel slowly runs out of space to go:






Just something cool I thought I'd share before I blend it all together and this little detail gets lost


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## Nemo

This makes sense but it is cool to see it. Thanks for showing it.


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## Kippington

Thanks Nemo
HOLY CRAP :bigeek:
I recall an image from *this old thread*... suddenly it makes sense!






Oh man, this is so much fun! :lol2:


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## RDalman

It can also be that the edge is not very straight. A "good" grind will show this more than one with chunky edge also. Not saying that is the case here, just that it can show like that


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## Kippington

RDalman said:


> It can also be that the edge is not very straight. A "good" grind will show this more than one with chunky edge also. Not saying that is the case here, just that it can show like that



I was quite sure it was straight, and a good grind too... but now you're making me double-check it! :razz:

Yeah it looks good, but the straightness along the edge is damn near impossible to catch in a photograph. Hell, it was hard enough to get a good picture of the distal taper!

At the very least I'm hoping these images demonstrate the primary bevel getting smaller as it moves further away from heel and into an ever thinner cross-section. Even as it moves up the belly of the knife towards the tip, the bevel is always shrinking in width. I'm looking forward to finding out how well this cuts :laugh:


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## ashy2classy

Very cool to see the grind picture...knife looks great! Thanks for sharing.


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## jessf

I think this is pretty standard geometry when you cut the bevel first, then apply distal taper. Had you applied the taper first then cut the bevel there would be less of a need to go back and fix the bevel. The angles close up as you get closer to the tip so theres a lot of free hand blending needed.

I believe the photo of the japanese knife is the result of a warped blade that wasnt sufficiently straightened post heat treat or flattened on the stones before the edge was applied.


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## Kippington

jessf said:


> I think this is pretty standard geometry when you cut the bevel first, then apply distal taper. Had you applied the taper first then cut the bevel there would be less of a need to go back and fix the bevel.



Can you explain what you mean in more detail?

As I understand it, if you do a good job on both the distal taper _*and*_ keeping a consistent bevel angle, you should end up with the same end product regardless of whichever one you did first.






The picture in the first post is very much like these diagrams, only there is an added sweep of the belly which makes it unappealing to the eye. It's a bit of a shame that it looks bad because there's nothing on the bevel to 'fix' as far as I can tell.

Also FWIW I actually did the taper before the bevel.

I hope this makes sense. It does in my head. :O


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## merlijny2k

I always thought the idea was that the lesser height of the bevel should more or less correspond with the lesser height of the entire knife. If you start with a higher bevel it takes longer before you run out. On another note, if I look st how my Kamo is ground which is widebevel like you are making, he takes bevel height as the constant, not bevel angle. Gives a super thin tip but that is definitely the approach I want to take once my grinder arrives.


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## JMJones

Are you doing the grind with a jig?


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## milkbaby

I think what jess says about the angle closing up, what m2k says about keeping the blade road height the same, and what JMJ asks about using a jig are probably right. If you use a sled jig to grind the bevel after grinding in the distal taper, it won't account for how the flats narrows as you go from heel to tip. Freehand automatically takes into account the distal taper. Or you can use something like Fred Rowe's bubble jig which is only a visual indicator that your freehand angle is staying constant. 

When the width produced by the angle of the bevel grind exceeds that of the distal taper at the spine, then the shinogi would have moved up to the spine which is what you typically see.


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## jessf

Kippington said:


> Can you explain what you mean in more detail?
> 
> As I understand it, if you do a good job on both the distal taper _*and*_ keeping a consistent bevel angle, you should end up with the same end product regardless of whichever one you did first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The picture in the first post is very much like these diagrams, only there is an added sweep of the belly which makes it unappealing to the eye. It's a bit of a shame that it looks bad because there's nothing on the bevel to 'fix' as far as I can tell.
> 
> Also FWIW I actually did the taper before the bevel.
> 
> I hope this makes sense. It does in my head. :O




Youre right. Not mater how you start the end product can be the same, so my original comment wasnt accurate. I freehand my bevels and distal taper and blend all at once. So im really touting the time saving merrits of freehand grinding. But you didnt really ask for that kind of advice so ill shut up for now.


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## Kippington

Wow, what an eye opening response from other knife makers. In my defense, this is still a work in progress!

Thanks for all your advice on grinding wide-bevels - I might try creating one in the near future to see if I can tackle this very topic.
This particular knife was never designed to be wide-bevel, it only looks a bit like one after the distal-taper was first set, then the initial bevel had reached the center on both sides.

Say what you will... I still find the idea behind this shape to be a thing of beauty:






Don't worry, I don't believe it leads anywhere dramatically improved, different or super useful. I wont chase it down a rabbit-hole - I simply saw it mid-way through making this knife and thought... nice. 

By the way, if any of you guys possess the skill to add a well defined sweeping wide-bevel onto both sides of this taper, I'd happily admit you are a *way* better knife-maker then I am... that would take some next level wizardry! :laugh:


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## milkbaby

That diagram is for a rectangular chisel and is not applicable to your knife with a curving edge. If you're using a sled jig to keep the angle the same, then as the edge moves away from the line of the heel, you're actually grinding a less acute bevel angle. You want the angle consistent to the edge, not the line running from the heel parallel to the spine. 

I assume you didn't keep the pictured grind or did you? That last picture with the coin seems to look good?


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## milkbaby

Here is what my thought process comes to:






And I am totally open to being wrong, and if so hope somebody can explain why.


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## Mute-on

milkbaby said:


> Here is what my thought process comes to:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I am totally open to being wrong, and if so hope somebody can explain why.



This is how I envisage the issue, too. Well conceived, milkbaby.

If this goes much further, though, my head will explode


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## Kippington

But oh no! I totally disagree!
This is a sweet discussion though :laugh:

I am torn as to whether to go off your diagram, or to draw my own crudely designed picture. I'll try using yours - tell me if I am making sense or if I am maybe missing something obvious.






In this picture, the distal taper causes Green XSection to be the widest and at the same time has the shortest profile (Green Profile).

If you move towards the tip of the knife in your image, Red XSection gets shorter, at the same time the Red Profile gets longer... and it gets worse at the Blue line! The bottom triangles are an approximation of what happens to the bevels (ignoring the flats I guess)

There's no way of sticking to one constant bevel angle when you include a taper. If you consider the White Profile line (right angle to the edge), this distance is supposed to stay the same no matter where you are along the wide bevel. This is a good way of sticking to one bevel angle, however this will only work if you _do not have a taper_.

Well that's how I see it anyway, please feel free to tell me how I'm wrong or if none of this makes sense :laugh:

BTW that coin picture above, that was what the taper looked like before grinding any bevels.


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## milkbaby

Kippington, I agree with your analysis of my diagram: my drawing is wrong. The way is drawn actually agrees with what your initial picture showed with the grind lines getting shorter as you get to the tip.

We should actually cross section the blade orthogonal (perpendicular) to the edge as shown by your white line; that's actually the bevel height we all consider not the straight up and down lines we drew. The bevel grind angle CAN remain the same as long as your distal taper doesn't thin out (before the blue line) any smaller than width of the shinogi at point GP. I think on this point we'll agree.

If your distal taper goes thinner than the shinogi at GP before you hit the blue line, then your grind angle has to narrow to maintain the same height. This concurs with jessf in his first comment. 

I think this is an excellent discussion! Y'all let me know if there's something else I didn't consider, but I think this post finally hits the nail on the head.


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## milkbaby

As soon as I replied I think I'm wrong again. LOL

Edited: if your distal tapered flats are consistent width from the spine to the shinogi or grind line, then the grind angle has to narrow to maintain the same grind height or you get what you showed in your grind pic. 

The only way to maintain the grind height at the same edge angle is if the "flats" are actually angled from the spine towards the edge. I bet this is the case in Japanese forged wide bevels, i.e. they're not forged flat but thinner as you go towards the edge from the spine. Then the grind puts on the blade road that is a consistent height. This would be a full height compound grind in stock removal. The distal taper would still have to not run down thinner than the at the shinogi at the blue line to be able to maintain the angle and grind height.


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## RDalman

milkbaby said:


> I bet this is the case in Japanese forged wide bevels, i.e. they're not forged flat but thinner as you go towards the edge from the spine. Then the grind puts on the blade road that is a consistent height. This would be a full height compound grind in stock removal.



Bingo! But on the grinder you're not limited to loosing forging heat in a second when getting really thin. Nothing stopping anyone from doing both aye.


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## Kippington

Thanks for posting that image milkbaby, had you not drawn it, this thread could've gone very differently! It was starting to feel a little one sided against me, and I could've sworn I had the right idea about what was going on (pretty sure some of the same traits are showing up in the Kato picture), but I wasn't going to start trying to explain stuff out of the blue! :laugh:

I'm looking forward to trying to make a dedicated wide-bevel in the near future. I will have to think about what you said about the flats not being parallel, cant quite wrap my head around it, but it definitely shows up in this picture at the Hira:






But first I need to complete this current WIP.



Mute-on said:


> If this goes much further, though, my head will explode



Quick! Somebody check on Mute-on!


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## Marek07

OK... that's one diagram too many! I'm now totally lost. :dazed:
Once you get your head around all this Kipp, perhaps you could explain it to a much more confused brain (mine) in short sentences & simple diagrams. Might be easier in person - with knife, grinder and jig all in view.
:wink:


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## Kippington

Sure thing Marek! :biggrin:


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## milkbaby

Kippington said:


> Thanks for posting that image milkbaby, had you not drawn it, this thread could've gone very differently! It was starting to feel a little one sided against me, and I could've sworn I had the right idea about what was going on (pretty sure some of the same traits are showing up in the Kato picture), but I wasn't going to start trying to explain stuff out of the blue! :laugh:
> 
> I'm looking forward to trying to make a dedicated wide-bevel in the near future. I will have to think about what you said about the flats not being parallel, cant quite wrap my head around it, but it definitely shows up in this picture at the Hira:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But first I need to complete this current WIP.



Yeah that drawing on the right that shows the hira angled in is what I was saying in words in my last post. It is possible to calculate all the angles you want to grind but in practice it's easier to just go by eye especially if freehand grinding. And forging is different as you only have a picture in your mind's eye where the centerplane of the blade is as well as the various angles which are a bit wobbly depending on how good you are with the hammer forging in the geometry evenly.

In the end as Robin said on an my Instagram post of that diagram, performance is what matters no matter how you arrive at it.


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## Mute-on

Kippington said:


> Thanks for posting that image milkbaby, had you not drawn it, this thread could've gone very differently! It was starting to feel a little one sided against me, and I could've sworn I had the right idea about what was going on (pretty sure some of the same traits are showing up in the Kato picture), but I wasn't going to start trying to explain stuff out of the blue! :laugh:
> 
> I'm looking forward to trying to make a dedicated wide-bevel in the near future. I will have to think about what you said about the flats not being parallel, cant quite wrap my head around it, but it definitely shows up in this picture at the Hira:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But first I need to complete this current WIP.
> 
> 
> 
> Quick! Somebody check on Mute-on!



Too late ...

What a mess!


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## jessf

milkbaby said:


> Yeah that drawing on the right that shows the hira angled in is what I was saying in words in my last post. It is possible to calculate all the angles you want to grind but in practice it's easier to just go by eye especially if freehand grinding. And forging is different as you only have a picture in your mind's eye where the centerplane of the blade is as well as the various angles which are a bit wobbly depending on how good you are with the hammer forging in the geometry evenly.
> 
> In the end as Robin said on an my Instagram post of that diagram, performance is what matters no matter how you arrive at it.



I recall now that I forge in the taper then freehand grind the bevel. I haven't made a blade in a while so it all starts to fall out of my head.


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## Kippington

Well I've finished the grind and have attached a makeshift handle on it - Time to give this knife a test run!

I'm used to using 'lasers' over 'workhorses' so I was a little clunky at the start of the video, but I got into the rhythm after the first few cuts. She's a different kind of beast, I can tell you that much!

[video=youtube;q0NKgLehUI0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0NKgLehUI0[/video]

Labor of love asked for a thicker grind on this knife, so I took a lot of inspiration off *the Kato thread* that was mentioned earlier. I'm very pleased with how this has turned out!
This is the pre-polish check up with Labor, making sure its all good with him before I spend hours making it pretty. Figured I may as well post it in this existing WIP thread. 

This thing is heavy! 236g with a light handle attached. As I understand it, this is actually lighter than a Kato 240mm, even though this knife is both taller and longer.
I have it balancing on a pencil to show center of mass.
















The blue reflection gives an idea of how the previous 'wide bevel' grind is now a blended concave grind. Spine is 4.3mm thick above the heel, quite beefy and (I believe) the same as a Kato 240mm. The taper hasn't changed from the first image on page one.

Taking a picture to show straightness of the cutting-edge is next to impossible...






I'm not looking forward to polishing, but it has to be done... I might see if I can bring out the hamon if it doesn't take too much effort - although I hear its a pain in the ass to do. :scared4:


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## labor of love

Oh man, Im gonna have a real good time with this beast.


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## Kippington

Haha sweet! I'll get to polishing it tomorrow. :biggrin:


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## Marek07

Wow! I'm holding the passaround which is beast enough for me. This one needs to come with a health warning!.


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## ashy2classy

&#128525;&#128525;


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## Mute-on

Looks like a serious blade. 

Awesome work!

J


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## malexthekid

This looks awesome and like something that would be right uo my alley &#128512;


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## milkbaby

Nice job! Always enjoy the typical knife cutting videos.


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## Drosophil

Every time I open one of Kippington's threads I know there will be a lot of stuff to learn from it. This one is awesome too and so is the knife.


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## Kippington

Thanks everyone!
Drosophil, I feel there are some basic things in knife making that never get explained well enough. I hope to share them with you girls and guys as I learn them. 
I did a post on the basics of asymmetry (because I thought was pretty straight forward), and I'd love to do a similar post on either heat-treatment of carbon steel, or perhaps the related topic of mechanical properties we want in our knives. But it's so hard to find the time to sit down and write it up...

This knife has been finished and she's ready to ship! I'm in talks with Labor of Love to see if we can get her a new handle from a professional maker, but for now this is how she looks:







She has a basic mirror polish. Doing this is truly an exercise in diminishing returns. I could've spent another 2 hours getting it perfect, but at this stage you already notice smudged fingerprints on it every time it gets touched!
It was much easier to take pictures of this knife before she began to reflect things!






Surprisingly, one of the hardest things to get right during the whole knife making process is the flat of the knife. It's something that starts in the hand forging of the steel, then gets 'zeroed in' at every step of the way till the end sharpening where (hopefully) it ends up as it should!
I personally hate completely flat areas on my gyutos. On this knife I have tried to have the smallest curve from the heel to the belly - hardly noticeable to the naked eye, but very noticeable while using it in a rocking motion. True flat spots end up with a clunking stop near the end of the cutting motion... very uncomfortable on the wrist in my opinion. Hopefully I got this as close to flat as possible without creating the 'clunk'. Also if your cutting board is slightly warped, a dead flat spot on a knife will never hit a dip in the board. This subtlety is *very* easy to mess up (as we saw in the other thread ).
In the following picture I try to show the slightly curved 150mm 'flat' using the light coming through between the knife and the board. 






And finally, something that stayed on the knife from all the way back when I was hand forging it to shape:






This is kind of the 'makers mark' as you will. I really like it and think it shows a bit of its history. I hope Labor doesn't mind!
Thanks for watching guys. Maybe I'll post one more picture if she gets some new boots, but if not, this is how she'll ship.

Time to get started on making a new passaround knife! :hungry:


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## malexthekid

Looks great &#128512; awesome work. But tone that mirror down to just a nice medium to high grit usuable finish &#128512;


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## labor of love

malexthekid said:


> Looks great &#128512; awesome work. But tone that mirror down to just a nice medium to high grit usuable finish &#128512;



Dont worry, it will be covered with patina in no time haha!


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## valgard

WOW dude, that looks pretty awesome


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## Marek07

Great work there Kipp! Profile shot looks just as you intended - awesome! And all that shiny bling... not bad for a fellow that wasn't interested in polishing. :whistling:
In all honesty, viewing on a phone I really thought you had created a complex maker's mark engraving!


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## milkbaby

Great job! I think the current handle looks quite handsome on this knife too.


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## Nemo

This looks great Kipp. Love the polish.

I agree with MB- current handle suits it. It looks like it's made to work.

I'm really enjoying reading your thoughts on the elements of the profile, grind and HT that contribute to performance.


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## malexthekid

And I agree with the others handle is cool. Looks well made. All you need to do is follow outbacktimbers on insta and pick up some nice blocks and i reckon you could easily be at that custom level you are talking about.


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## milkbaby

Since malex mentioned it, another down under wood source for some nice stuff at good prices is thetimberjoint.com (he also has some instagram specials). Crazy good prices on ringed gidgee and other beautiful Aussie woods. I just ordered some lace sheoak that were a great deal even though international shipping to me in the US was almost 75% of the price of the wood!


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## malexthekid

milkbaby said:


> Since malex mentioned it, another down under wood source for some nice stuff at good prices is thetimberjoint.com (he also has some instagram specials). Crazy good prices on ringed gidgee and other beautiful Aussie woods. I just ordered some lace sheoak that were a great deal even though international shipping to me in the US was almost 75% of the price of the wood!


Welcome to our world... haha.


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## Nemo

malexthekid said:


> Welcome to our world... haha.


I was thinking the same thing


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## NO ChoP!

With paying zero homage to actual geometry, I think the shrinking edge grind and the distal taper will cancel one another out. ???


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## labor of love

NO ChoP! said:


> With paying zero homage to actual geometry, I think the shrinking edge grind and the distal taper will cancel one another out. ???



What?


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## NO ChoP!

I am saying that my math skills are about third grade. But, it seems that finding the median between a thin tip and shallow edge grind and a thick heel with a tall grind, would lend to becoming rather balanced. I guess I don't understand the point. Why bother with grinding such a killer distal taper in the first place?


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## NO ChoP!

Not trying to ruffle feathers, I just like a thin, thin tip, and it seems this grind leaves a bit of meat behind the shallow grind at the tip. Maybe the heavy distal taper makes the tip thin enough on it's own. Guess it's hard to judge without actually having it on a board...if you need my address...


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## labor of love

Are you saying that the spine distal taper doesnt match the edge distal taper?


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## milkbaby

NO ChoP! said:


> Not trying to ruffle feathers, I just like a thin, thin tip, and it seems this grind leaves a bit of meat behind the shallow grind at the tip. Maybe the heavy distal taper makes the tip thin enough on it's own. Guess it's hard to judge without actually having it on a board...if you need my address...



I'm sure Kip can quote you some measurements, but I'm sure the tip is very thin. I'm pretty sure that what you're seeing is an optical illusion from the horizontal sanding lines against the vertical grinding lines.

Edited to add: If you look at the first pic of the spine, it's clear that the tip is very thin.


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## Kippington

The knife is on it's way to Labor now, so unfortunately I cant post any measurements.

But really, I love this kind conversation! We're all here to take a closer look at the pros and cons of any specific grind. I have _no doubt_ there are negatives to the one in this thread - but once you can see the positives, they really are quite beautiful.

Take a look at two options for wide bevel gyutos against the strange Kato type grind (in the style of milkbaby's diagram), and you can see its possible to get a thinner tip with a consistent angle:

*No taper - consistent bevel angle:*






*Tapered - inconsistent bevel angle:*





*
Tapered - consistant bevel angle:*






And heck, it even follows a wide bevel to a perfect 50/50 ratio along the entirety of its length.






But this only works if you have a spine that tapers off into nothing, which turns out to have a few advantages and disadvantages of its own.
I might get into more of that later.


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## malexthekid

Can't wait to hear Labor's thought on this beauty


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## NO ChoP!

Pretty sick diagrams! That is exactly what I was envisioning. Definitely interesting. Thanks.


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## labor of love

This knife was waiting for me when I arrived home from work this evening. Havent used it yet but I will definitely put it to use over the next 3 days. 
Im really conflicted as to how I should describe my initial impressions. Part of me wants to downplay how great this knife appears ootb in all the areas that matter. But also I want to rave about this guy.
Initially I was thinking US pass around for this blade but now that seems hard to fathom as the grind really is quite thin and frankly I dont think Ill be in the mood to be without it(sorry kippington). No chop, if youre still curious about this knife PM me.


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## valgard

Sounds great so far, the knife looked slick in pics for sure.


labor of love said:


> This knife was waiting for me when I arrived home from work this evening. Havent used it yet but I will definitely put it to use over the next 3 days because Im working 3 doubles in a row.
> Im really conflicted as to how I should describe my initial impressions. Part of me wants to downplay how great this knife appears ootb in all the areas that matter and the other part of me doesnt want to hype kippingtons work only so I can keep this guy all to myself for future work.
> Initially I was thinking US pass around for this blade but now that seems hard to fathom as the grind really is quite thin and quite frankly I dont think Ill be in the mood to be without it(sorry kippington). No chop, if youre still curious about this knife PM me.


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## merlijny2k

The Kato grind always makes me think of a filing jig. Imagine a filing jig with a not too long file. If the knife is clamped in only once, you get the steepest angle and the smallest bevel in the middle. Closer to the ends of the knife the file has a longer stroke and the bevel angle gets smaller, bevel grows wider. You can get the same effect grinding on a wheel as well if you keep the knife clamped in the middle and then connected to a pivot some distance away. It seems more a shape that arises out of practicality rather than being some optimum for whatever.


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## Kippington

I believe you're referring to a common misconception about filing/sharpening jigs.
This statement is incorrect:



merlijny2k said:


> Imagine a filing jig with a not too long file. If the knife is clamped in only once, you get the steepest angle and the smallest bevel in the middle. Closer to the ends of the knife the file has a longer stroke and the bevel angle gets smaller, bevel grows wider.



If you are talking about the increasing distance between the pivot and the file/bevel contact point, the angle stays consistent regardless of that length.
The belly of the knife _will_ cause a change in angle, but if you are working on the flat of the knife there won't be a steeper angle or smaller bevel in the middle. It's just a little trick that your mind is playing on you. 

Regardless, neither myself nor Kato use this kind of jig.



labor of love said:


> Initially I was thinking US pass around for this blade but now that seems hard to fathom as the grind really is quite thin and frankly I dont think Ill be in the mood to be without it(sorry kippington).



Thats all good, I totally understand why you wouldn't want anyone to touch a knife that's thin behind the edge. So many things can go wrong!
Looking forward to your thoughts!


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## merlijny2k

Kippington said:


> I believe you're referring to a common misconception about filing/sharpening jigs.
> This statement is incorrect:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are talking about the increasing distance between the pivot and the file/bevel contact point, the angle stays consistent regardless of that length.
> The belly of the knife _will_ cause a change in angle, but if you are working on the flat of the knife there won't be a steeper angle or smaller bevel in the middle. It's just a little trick that your mind is playing on you.
> 
> Regardless, neither myself nor Kato use this kind of jig.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats all good, I totally understand why you wouldn't want anyone to touch a knife that's thin behind the edge. So many things can go wrong!
> Looking forward to your thoughts!



Hmm if it's a mind trick i got to make some time to finish building that jig, do some CAD hours and figure out how i got this tricked.


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## Kippington

Yeah I was fooled by the same misconception.
It feels like a correct assumption if you have the following thought process: _The angle to the base of a cone is consistent around its perimeter. If I change the width/length of the cone, the angle has to change... this same rule should apply to a sharpening jig._





But then someone shows you this...






...and the above assumption collapses.
So yeah, you _*can*_ use a central point/pivot to keep the same bevel angle along a straight edge, regardless of its width/length! :lol2:


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## malexthekid

I fail to see how a standard roof shows you that.... cause trigonometry says otherwise.... if your run increases without your rise increasing you get a change in angle.... 

Admittedly I have no idea what jig you are talking about so no idea how it holds or sets angle.


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## Kippington

We're referring to this style of sharpening/grinding jig, and how at first glance it would seem that the angle of the bevel would change in correlation to its distance from the pivot... but this isn't actually true.








merlijny2k said:


> If the knife is clamped in only once, you get the steepest angle and the smallest bevel in the middle. Closer to the ends of the knife the file has a longer stroke and the bevel angle gets smaller, bevel grows wider.


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## malexthekid

Kippington said:


> We're referring to this style of sharpening/grinding jig, and how at first glance it would seem that the angle of the bevel would change in correlation to its distance from the pivot... but this isn't actually true.


While I do greatly respect the info you share on here... trig totally disagrees with you.... because at the tip your run is greater than the middle but your rise is constant... unless there is something I am missing in the mechanism...


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## JayGee

malexthekid said:


> While I do greatly respect the info you share on here... trig totally disagrees with you.... because at the tip your run is greater than the middle but your rise is constant... unless there is something I am missing in the mechanism...



I think the angle to which the 'rise' and 'run' correspond is not the angle of the bevel. It's the angle from the centre point of the jig to the edge of the file. The angle of the bevel is in a different plane / axis.


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## jessf

So, when you took the commission did the buyer want specific blade features, size, height etc? If so, did that jive with your idea of how the blade should be?


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## merlijny2k

Kippington said:


> Yeah I was fooled by the same misconception.
> It feels like a correct assumption if you have the following thought process: _The angle to the base of a cone is consistent around its perimeter. If I change the width/length of the cone, the angle has to change... this same rule should apply to a sharpening jig._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But then someone shows you this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and the above assumption collapses.
> So yeah, you _*can*_ use a central point/pivot to keep the same bevel angle along a straight edge, regardless of its width/length! :lol2:


Holy Cow you are right!!! I see it now. Kipp you missed career as an educator!


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## labor of love

jessf said:


> So, when you took the commission did the buyer want specific blade features, size, height etc? If so, did that jive with your idea of how the blade should be?



I requested length and height measurements. He convinced me as to what a good weight for the knife would be. This knife is similar to a knife kippington already made which I was in love with (theres a thread somewhere about his original honyaki workhorse). After using it at work for 2 days I can confidently say I like this knife even more than I thought I would. Im definitely having kippington make more knives for me whenever he has the time.


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## malexthekid

Let's hope he has time &#128512;


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## malexthekid

labor of love said:


> I requested length and height measurements. He convinced me as to what a good weight for the knife would be. This knife is similar to a knife kippington already made which I was in love with (theres a thread somewhere about his original honyaki workhorse). After using it at work for 2 days I can confidently say I like this knife even more than I thought I would. Im definitely having kippington make more knives for me whenever he has the time.


And pics... where are the pics!!!


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## labor of love

Haha, I wont stop harassing him until I get atleast one more knife from him. Its his own fault for making a great knife and being super cool to communicate with. 
I dont know if anyone else has noticed what with all the diagrams hes shared on this thread and a few others but he clearly has put a lot of thought into his work and it shows in the final product.


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## labor of love

malexthekid said:


> And pics... where are the pics!!!



Will do. I really regret not taking pics of the ootb mirror finish. After 5 shifts patina is slowly setting in. But Ive been using it for a spinalis special so its building some nice blue streaks towards the tip. Also fingerprint patina.


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## malexthekid

labor of love said:


> Haha, I wont stop harassing him until I get atleast one more knife from him. Its his own fault for making a great knife and being super cool to communicate with.
> I dont know if anyone else has noticed what with all the diagrams hes shared on this thread and a few others but he clearly has put a lot of thought into his work and it shows in the final product.


I'm still waiting on a pm with a price. Hint hint, nudge nudge. Haha


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## labor of love

To be honest Im trying to hold off on a review for another week. Ginrei should arrive any day now and I was thinking about doing a review of both knives together. Maybe a little compare and contrast.


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## Kippington

malexthekid, the thing with trig is that we need to be careful how we apply a two-dimensional plane to a three-dimensional shape. It has been done incorrectly a couple of times in this thread already!



malexthekid said:


> if your run increases without your rise increasing you get a change in angle....










JayGee said:


> I think the angle to which the 'rise' and 'run' correspond is not the angle of the bevel. It's the angle from the center point of the jig to the edge of the file. The angle of the bevel is in a different plane / axis.


Bang on target!

-

In other news, I've finally received some new metal from my steel supplier today! Sorry to everyone that has asked me for a knife, I'll be able to make some more soon! :laugh:


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## Nemo

What sort of steel is it, Kipp?


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## malexthekid

Kippington said:


> malexthekid, the thing with trig is that we need to be careful how we apply a two-dimensional plane to a three-dimensional shape. It has been done incorrectly a couple of times in this thread already!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bang on target!
> 
> -
> 
> In other news, I've finally received some new metal from my steel supplier today! Sorry to everyone that has asked me for a knife, I'll be able to make some more soon! [emoji23]


I think I am just confusing (or visualizing properly) the mechanism.... cause I know I am right in exactly how i am thinking.... but also can't figure you are wrong.

And does that mean I should be sitting idly with my phone waiting for a PM? &#128513;&#128521;


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## Kippington

malexthekid, I will send you a PM now!



Nemo said:


> What sort of steel is it, Kipp?



It is 1095. As an interesting side-note I looked into the exact composition of this batch of 1095 (according to the website I bought it from), and it _almost _falls within the tolerances of Hitatchi White #2 according to the zKnives website.
Here are their compositions, including the W2 steel I used for the knife in this thread for comparison:

*-- AISI 1095| White#2 | AISI W2
C: . 0.960 .|. 1.050 .|. 0.916
Si:. 0.230 .|. 0.200 .|. 0.296
Mn:. 0.350 .|. 0.300 .|. 0.215
P: . 0.009 .|. 0.025 .|. 0.005
S: . 0.003 .|. 0.004 .|. 0.002
Cr:. .N/A. .|. .N/A. .|. 0.069
Ni:. .N/A. .|. .N/A. .|. 0.042
Mo:. .N/A. .|. .N/A. .|. 0.008
V: . .N/A. .|. .N/A. .|. 0.165
W: . .N/A. .|. .N/A. .|. 0.005
Cu:. .N/A. .|. .N/A. .|. 0.047
Sn:. .N/A. .|. .N/A. .|. 0.006
Al:. .N/A. .|. .N/A. .|. 0.006*


It seems my 1095 is extremely similar to Hitachi White #2 ... as far as I can tell anyway - I didn't put a lot of effort into researching this! :razz:


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## Nomsdotcom

I read this thread and felt like I was back in math class... I'm just going to go back to cutting things hahaha


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## panda

kip i am holding out hope that you will land a batch of white steel, or spicy white from devinthomas or iwasaki (spicy swedish) #crossfingers


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## supersayan3

Just saw the post , what a beautiful knife [emoji7]
Thumbs up [emoji106]
Keep on going!


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## Kippington

Cheers!

I've been receiving a suprising number of requests for knives similar to the one Labor of Love got in this thread, and I've spent the last couple of days making a similar one for Ryanjams.
He was after one with the belly curve of a Masamoto KS, with added heel height and a stronger distal taper.




This new one has a couple of subtle changes to the grind over Labor's - neat little tricks I've learned after making the non-stick knives in the other thread - and I'm blown away by how well this performs with a few optimizing tweaks. I _had _to record the knife in use before shipping it off:

I'm starting to come around as to why these workhorse grinds appear to attract more people over the lasers. This one is so much fun to use!


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## panda

sweet!!


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## Marek07

Great video! Oh yeah... and a great looking knife too! Did I mention performance? Or the awesome distal taper? I think you're on a winner grind there @Kippington. 
Custom order heading your way.


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## Kippington

I'll tell you what, one of the most important lessons I've learned from this whole knife-making endeavor is to enjoy eating potatoes and potato based products...


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## Gjackson98

Kippington said:


> I'll tell you what, one of the most important lessons I've learned from this whole knife-making endeavor is to enjoy eating potatoes and potato based products...



hahahahaha


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## ryanjams

Can't wait to get my hands on this thing!


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## mc2442

Looking great Kipp! Looking forward to getting one from you!


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