# Chipped Blades: What the heck am I doing wrong??



## Erilyn75 (Feb 18, 2014)

I was admiring my Takeda so beautifully hanging on the mag block when I noticed a great big chip in it!!! It wasn't the only one either. There were 3 smaller ones towards the heel. I've got a ginga with small chips in the very same spots. So, wth am I doing wrong? I use my knives for vegetables and that's it. Never frozen foods. It's got to be something I'm doing, I just don't know what. :scratchhead:


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## chefcomesback (Feb 18, 2014)

What are you cutting mostly? Are you chopping fast ? What kind of cutting board do you use ?Usually root vegetables are first ones to be blamed but I witneesed more chipping while chopping small and softer items on poly boards


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Feb 18, 2014)

are these chips in the area that makes a contact with mag block? If so, then the problem occurs when you place/remove your knife to/from block. That happened to me and I'm now much more careful when taking blades from mag block  no more chips as the result. But this may not be your situation.


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## Erilyn75 (Feb 18, 2014)

I use an end grain walnut/maple board and my usual list of veggies are onions, carrots, celery, potatoes, peppers, corn on the cob and herbs. Nothing unusual. The last time I used it though for taking corn off the cob. With the ginga though I've only used it once on carrots. It's not my favorite knife so it's not getting any love. 

I do try to be careful with mag block but sometimes it gets away from me. That sucker is strong.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Feb 18, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> I do try to be careful with mag block but sometimes it gets away from me. That sucker is strong.


I'm still not sure it's the blocks fault but anyway the idea is to twist knife when you are removing it from block. Hard to explain with my English, but try to first detach edge from block and then spine (twist knife a little bit, so that edge wasn't contacting block anymore and then pull knife from block completely).


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## berko (Feb 18, 2014)

> are these chips in the area that makes a contact with mag block?



thats exactly what i thought. i remember that happening to me as well.


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## TaJ (Feb 18, 2014)

Another possible danger is how one puts the knife on the mag block. The force of magnets increases roughly exponentially with distance to the magnet and the blade accelerates when very close and can slam into the block. My knives are tip up and are held at the block just next to the heel where they are widest. The way i avoid slamming into the block, i put the tip section at an angle on the block first then lower the angle until it is flat against the block, then i slide up the blade gently until the wide heel area reaches the block. This works because my block has a smooth wooden surface.

That being said, i'm still cautious with and unsure on how to put my my single bevel knives on the block. The edge is close to the board but if i'd turn the blade i think it may scratch the jigane.


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## Erilyn75 (Feb 18, 2014)

I might invest in one of those foo foo counter blocks with the little balls in it. I can't use my drawer because my 1yo MUST get into everything!


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## mhpr262 (Feb 18, 2014)

Maybe it happened the same way another use put a huge chip in his MAC some time ago - mincing herbs, holding the blade down with one hand while "walking" it in a circel and pumping with the other hand. if the edge digs into the cutting board while being twisted it can break.

No personal experience with it, hat is one thing you never have to worry about with the typical German steel ...


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## jai (Feb 18, 2014)

If it happened with both your knives it might be your sharpwning technique you might accidently sharpen that area differently and it may get more fragile and thinner and then just natural cutting may chip it. Its happened to me a few times when I get my knives to sharp. They get so sharp that push cutting tomatoes and shaving feels amazing but after like 5 minutes or I cut something dense I get. Bunch of microchips. You can put a microbevel on it and it will fix this problem. Or just look at how you sharpen more. Also I could just have something to do with your cutting technique if its in the same spot on both knives. Anyway im just guessing


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## skyorbital (Feb 18, 2014)

I used to have micro chips after sharpening due to my method which I have since adjusted, but there are dozens of things that could be causing it.

I'd recommend after you sharpen these chips out get into the habit of checking the edge every time you handle them, from chopping to cleaning to putting back on the rack, it should help you narrow it down and identify where it's happening, then you can deal with it easily.


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## Dardeau (Feb 18, 2014)

I third the mag block. There is a strip above the fish buttering station at work to avoid placing a clean knife on a filthy board, and I have definitely chipped my yanagiba on it.


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## mikemac (Feb 18, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> ....So, wth am I doing wrong?....



Nothing, you are on a learning curve....?

Is this the Takeda that made a return trip for thinning?
So far we have 'mag strip', 'cutting or chopping technique', and 'sharpening technique' (i.e. pressure)...another possibility I'll throw out that was the culprit in my house is....sharpening at too low (or acute) an angle. The great thing too is that the easy fix for your micro chips - working them out by adding a higher 'micro' bevel will give you a chance to try the [slightly] higher angles. 
If you take a second and check using quarters to check your angles ( http://www.chadwrites.com/knife-sharpening-coin-trick-magic-angle-finder/ ) a normal gyuto at 15* requires you raise the spine to a height between 6 & 7 quarters, and a 'tall' takeda even higher. 
When you sharpen, how much are you lifting the spine off the stone?


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## toddnmd (Feb 18, 2014)

mikemac said:


> If you take a second and check using quarters to check your angles ( http://www.chadwrites.com/knife-sharpening-coin-trick-magic-angle-finder/ ) a normal gyuto at 15* requires you raise the spine to a height between 6 & 7 quarters, and a 'tall' takeda even higher.



Nice link, thanks for sharing it!


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## Marko Tsourkan (Feb 18, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> I'm still not sure it's the blocks fault but anyway the idea is to twist knife when you are removing it from block. Hard to explain with my English, but try to first detach edge from block and then spine (twist knife a little bit, so that edge wasn't contacting block anymore and then pull knife from block completely).



It has little (I suspect none) to do with a mag block. Your chipping is likely to occur on a contact with the cutting surface, be it wood or plastic, or whatever. Chipping is a fracture along the grain boundaries of the steel. I am not going to go over causes of this, is has been enough said in similar threads on this forum, but one way to deal with the chipping is to cut a microbevel in a reprofiled edge (you remove metal along the whole edge to remove chips and you thicken a cross-section of the blade in the process). In other woods, it is a possibility that the current cross-section can't support the impact, so you need to stabilize it by thickening it. 

Marko


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## panda (Feb 18, 2014)

yup, your takeda was too thin at the edge hence very fragile. my takeda has a few microchips as well because it was sharpened too thin.


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## Erilyn75 (Feb 18, 2014)

My skill is nowhere good enough for me to attempt sharpening the Takeda so we can rule that out. I think I'm going to go review knife technique videos again and see where I may be going wrong. It could be a mix that and a too thin blade or just me alone. This knife.....I've got so much money into it :cry:

And yes, it's the one I sent in to be fixed.


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## JBroida (Feb 18, 2014)

when i see these issues, 90% of the time it is due to problems with cutting technique. The chipping near the tip like you have is often caused by rocking motions with knives that are on the very thin/very hard side. Its actually not the rocking motion proper that causes the problem, but rather the lateral motion that ensues from said rocking motion. The lateral force across the edge is often concentrated in the last 1/3rd of the blade near the tip (just a bit before the tip though), so that is where one sees the most chipping.


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## Lefty (Feb 18, 2014)

Makers seem to often send the bevel unfinished, or in this case (very likely) too steep. You ca thicken it by taking it to a sharpening stone, and raising it up (7 quarters, or so?) and swiping the entire edge along the spine. You'll find it's not too hard to hold a fairly consistent angle using this method.


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## Timthebeaver (Feb 18, 2014)

Jon (unsurprisingly) has nailed it. It's down to torque, essentially.


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## Stumblinman (Feb 19, 2014)

You ever get that sound/feeling cutting when you push into something and then push the blade horizontally away from the cut without picking up a little ? The blade had dug into the board slightly and it's kinda a metallic sound... Hard to explain but it's like nails on a chalkboard to me. Tats when I know I added a little extra iron to the meal.


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## panda (Feb 19, 2014)

takeda is easy as hell to sharpen, don't be scared just go for it. use guides if you must, you could tape some cardboard to each side.


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## Matus (Feb 19, 2014)

I would go with what Marko said. Try slight micro-bevel and see whether it will help. I had similar problem with Shun - once micro-bevel was put on (OK, a bit more than micro as Shun VG10 loves to chip) it improved tremendously. And also on my Yoshikane SKD petty (very thin blade).

I also do use magnetic holder - but one would really have to handle the knives in a rough manner to chip a blade on its wooden surface, IMO. If you use steel magnetic holder than it is a different story of course.


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## Phip (Feb 20, 2014)

A Takeda was the first knife I really got to know. I, too, got chipping--much to my surprise and dismay. The cause? I'd do push cutting only, but left over from years of dull cruddy knives was a little habit I didn't know I had until I looked closely at my technique and why the Takeda was chipping. After each cut with the blade, with the blade still touching on the cutting board I'd unconsciously give a little twist or pull horizontally before lifting the blade up. I did this to tear the protein or veggie the last little bit that a dull knife never quite got. When I quit doing that little horizontal shift, the chipping stopped.

I was also able to get rid of the chips with a 1000 grit stone and routine sharpenings. Only took 2-3 times. Don't be afraid of trying: I never met a knife easier to sharpen than my Takeda gyuto (255mm). You gotta start some time. Why not now?


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## Matus (Feb 20, 2014)

Phip said:


> ... after each cut with the blade, with the blade still touching on the cutting board I'd unconsciously give a little twist or pull horizontally before lifting the blade up. I did this to tear the protein or veggie the last little bit that a dull knife never quite got. When I quit doing that little horizontal shift, the chipping stopped .../QUOTE]
> 
> I have VERY similar experience - I was actually using the horizontal movement (perpendicular to the knife blade) to remove the parts that were just cut (ends of green beans) and "throw" them off the cutting board. That probably can be done, but not with a thin delicate blade.


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## Stumblinman (Feb 20, 2014)

Video.... Yeah that was typed in my best speech impediment gay voice.....


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## Erilyn75 (Feb 20, 2014)

I believe I might be the problem. I really paid attention to how I was cutting tonight and sometimes I would scrape or twist. I also do a lot of rocking especially with herbs then scrape them together. Obviously I know I need to work on my cutting skills but is it typical for this knife to be so delicate? I'm assuming the chips on the back end of the knife are from the rocking as well.


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## Timthebeaver (Feb 20, 2014)

The brittleness is a combination of the very thin edge and the high hardness (RC 61-63) of the steel. IIRC, your Takeda came back from Shosui super thin?

Perhaps add a microbevel, or sharpen at a less acute angle?


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## kpnv (Feb 20, 2014)

1. keep knife sharp
2. use less force


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## Benuser (Feb 20, 2014)

kpnv said:


> 1. keep knife sharp
> 2. use less force


3. no rock-walking


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## EdipisReks (Feb 20, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> I believe I might be the problem. I really paid attention to how I was cutting tonight and sometimes I would scrape or twist. I also do a lot of rocking especially with herbs then scrape them together. Obviously I know I need to work on my cutting skills but is it typical for this knife to be so delicate? I'm assuming the chips on the back end of the knife are from the rocking as well.



I've never chipped a knife doing that with herbs, and I've had and have knives both harder and thinner than Takedas. I think the issue is simply that you are twisting the knife when the edge is embedded in the board.


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## Geo87 (Feb 20, 2014)

I believe the o.p is talking about 'walking' through the herbs and scraping the edge across the board to gather them. Surely that is enough to chip a hard thin blade.


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## EdipisReks (Feb 20, 2014)

Geo87 said:


> I believe the o.p is talking about 'walking' through the herbs and scraping the edge across the board to gather them. Surely that is enough to chip a hard thin blade.



I've never experienced it as being a problem.


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## Geo87 (Feb 20, 2014)

Recently to everybody at works horror our cowboy exec borrowed somebody's laser against their permission. He rock chopped, walked , scraped the edge sideways & pounded the edge unnecessarily.

It had two small chips one out of the curve near the tip & one halfway along the edge. 

If you have to gather / move food perhaps it's better to use the spine?

I just personally feel that dragging the edge across the board sideways is a bad idea... Could cause loss of edge retention, edge waving/ rolling over, chipping etc


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## labor of love (Feb 20, 2014)

Ive had chips on brand new knives several times. I would sharpen them out and they would never chip again. I cant explain it. But there is a pattern.


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## Chef Andy (Feb 20, 2014)

I always use the spine to scrape the board to collect food. It just has always seemed like a bad idea to me to use the cutting edge to collect food. I haven't had an issue with chipping with my new knives at all. I'm very careful with them, however. Never use a magnetic knife strip.


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## orangehero (Feb 20, 2014)

labor of love said:


> Ive had chips on brand new knives several times. I would sharpen them out and they would never chip again. I cant explain it. But there is a pattern.



That's probably due to the edge being overheated during machine sharpening at the factory.


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## labor of love (Feb 20, 2014)

orangehero said:


> That's probably due to the edge being overheated during machine sharpening at the factory.



The reason i mention this is because the OP's knife in question is new. Well, newish.


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## mhpr262 (Feb 21, 2014)

Chef Andy said:


> I always use the spine to scrape the board to collect food. It just has always seemed like a bad idea to me to use the cutting edge to collect food. I haven't had an issue with chipping with my new knives at all. I'm very careful with them, however. Never use a magnetic knife strip.



This, this so much. I have watched a lot of knife skills videos on youtube and EVERYBODY does that. I have only found one single vid where you are advised to use the back of the blade for scraping. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard for me when they use the edge.



orangehero said:


> That's probably due to the edge being overheated during machine sharpening at the factory.



Wouldn't overheating make the steel softer and chipping more unlikely?


PS great that we finally have a sharpeining subforum. When I first came here a few weeks ago I couldn't believe no such thing existed.


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## orangehero (Feb 21, 2014)

mhpr262 said:


> Wouldn't overheating make the steel softer and chipping more unlikely?



Theoretically that makes sense, as you would think a higher heat would result in softer temper, but that's not what happens (or it does happen but the other resulting edge damage leads to cracks and chipping).

Here's some explanation from Devin Thomas:


DevinT said:


> This is a common problem in industry. Over heating can cause micro cracking on the edges of knives and tooling. The metallurgists at Crucible steel have been telling me this for years. They first learned about this when some of their customers had tool failure, which, when they looked at it under magnification, found the micro cracking. The customers were blaming the problem on the steel, of course. This can happen even with flood coolant when the abrasives get some what dull.
> 
> This does not happen every time. There are a lot of cases where it does act like a higher tempering of localized areas, like at the tip or at the heel.
> 
> ...


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## JBroida (Feb 21, 2014)

more than the sharpening, consider this... thin edges during HT will heat up and cool down more quickly, causing that area to be harder and more brittle.

But take this for what its worth... i've taken the time to look at a lot of steel under microscopes, tested HT's in various ways, and used a ton of knives... the #1 culprit when it comes to chipping is user error and problems with knife skills and technique. I also happen to know these are fixable things, since i've helped a lot of people fix these problems.


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## panda (Feb 21, 2014)

If a user has continued chipping issues then most likely technique, but often times once factory edge is ground off chipping rarely happens in a lot of blades.

I have seen countless knives that were used incorrectly and those chips are huge, not of the micro type.
In the OPs case I imagine its a combo of both brittle edge and user error.


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## Robert (Feb 21, 2014)

labor of love said:


> Ive had chips on brand new knives several times. I would sharpen them out and they would never chip again. I cant explain it. But there is a pattern.



+1


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## nepastovus (Mar 25, 2014)

Once you send knife back to Takeda for thinning he doest hesitate and puts a VERY thin edge, mine came back with 5-6 degrees per side edge. micro chipped like hell. I then put another 15 degrees bevel and it seems hold ok, still feels quite week though


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