# Flattening Stone Rec



## cotedupy (Jan 6, 2022)

I love my Atoma 140/400 combi, but I love it _too much_. I use it all the time for some quite extensive flattening of natural stones that I should probably being using SiC powder for but can't be arsed, so instead I use the atoma and end up spending lots of money on replacement sheets all the time because it's so feckin' convenient...

Is there another way???

I am not above spending money on something fancier if it's going to last. Like those diamond ones with the funny shapes on them, are they good? The reason I probably need diamonds here is that SiC / AlOx / belts really start to lose effectiveness on harder natural stones - novaculites and stuff.

I'd be keeping the atoma for surface finish, what I'm most interested in is something coarse and fast, for very heavy duty flattening, that will stay *aggressive and flat* for a long time.

TY for any thoughts!


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## M1k3 (Jan 6, 2022)

Baileigh Heavy Duty Drum Sander 1007014 - SD-255


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 6, 2022)

Maybe the Baryonyx Manticore? I have one and it is quite aggressive but I've never used it for flattening. You need to dress it to get it cutting but once it does, I know it hogs metal off quickly.

I haven't interacted with Benjamin (owner) for sometime but he was always super helpful and very knowledgeable. Maybe shoot him an email and tell him what you're wanting to do.

I would hate to flatten the Manticore though. 









BYXCO "Manticore" Bench Stone







www.baryonyxknife.com


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## captaincaed (Jan 6, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I love my Atoma 140/400 combi, but I love it _too much_. I use it all the time for some quite extensive flattening of natural stones that I should probably being using SiC powder for but can't be arsed, so instead I use the atoma and end up spending lots of money on replacement sheets all the time because it's so feckin' convenient...
> 
> Is there another way???
> 
> ...


For novaculite, #60 SiC powder. Anything else I've used has been a joke. I'm talking full flattening a translucent.

Lay down #60 purple ceramic paper on a flat surface. Use it up. Then SiC powder and windex on top. Go to town. Cubitron is particularly sturdy paper. One piece will do many stones.

For DEAD flat at the end, a fresh paper without powder, add pencil lines, then bump up to the next grit of cubitron paper. Lap as desired.


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## M1k3 (Jan 6, 2022)

+1 for Cubitron! I ignore the other brands if Cubitron is available in the grit I want.


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## TB_London (Jan 7, 2022)

Get a linisher and ceramic belts if you want quick. Belt costs add up, but time isn’t free


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## Grayswandir (Jan 7, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I love my Atoma 140/400 combi, but I love it _too much_. I use it all the time for some quite extensive flattening of natural stones that I should probably being using SiC powder for but can't be arsed, so instead I use the atoma and end up spending lots of money on replacement sheets all the time because it's so feckin' convenient...
> 
> Is there another way???
> 
> ...



Hey Cotedupy,

I've heard that the Shapton 120 grit stone is fantastic, allegedly better and much faster then any Atoma diamond plate. You need a sacrificial piece of steel to bring up some slurry on them, but after that they cut very, very fast (according to some of the reviews I've read). I'm sorry, I wish I could give you my personal experience in this matter about this stone, but the reviews do have me wondering if I should give the stone a try myself.

Other then that, I've been using ceramic sandpaper, it cuts pretty fast and lasts longer then most normal sandpaper, but I doubt it's what you're looking for.


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## cotedupy (Jan 7, 2022)

Cheers all!

Sounds like I perhaps I should just bit the bullet and go with SiC powder, I have tried ceramic belts before and they are good. But pretty much most non-diamond abrasives really struggle when you get to very hard stones I find. do have a load of coarse and quite hardy SiC stones already I use for flattening sometimes, and they do work alright, though probably none as coarse as the Manticore.

Or if someone wants to lend me $3,500 I will buy Mike's excellent-looking machine, and be happy 

---

Another question (@captaincaed ) , thinking outside the box for a sec... most of the reason I've been hesitant to use SiC is because I'm lazy. Reckon there's a way I could attach a stone to the plate of my handheld orbital sander and use the SiC to do it like that instead of all by hand? Or am I just going to get SiC powder flying everywhere, make a right mess, and risk breaking the stone...?


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## r0bz (Jan 7, 2022)

with what do you use to flatten your regular king stones at 200#-1000# ?


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## cotedupy (Jan 7, 2022)

r0bz said:


> for what do you use to flatten your regular king stones at 200#-1000# ?



I only have the 800 and 1200, but I use a 140/400 Atoma, could use sandpaper too. The stones are so soft that's it's very quick work, you just have to do it often!

(In fact flattening pretty much any kind of synthetic waterstone is a relative breeze. Even things like Shapton Glass stones that we might consider 'hard' are still designed to have some amount of friability. The real problems come in with heavily dished, hard, naturals; Idwal, Charnley, Turkish, or any of the Arkansas stones, are all a bit of a nightmare.)


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## r0bz (Jan 7, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I only have the 800 and 1200, but I use a 140/400 Atoma, could use sandpaper too. The stones are so soft that's it's very quick work, you just have to do it often!
> 
> (In fact flattening pretty much any kind of synthetic waterstone is a relative breeze. Even things like Shapton Glass stones that we might consider 'hard' are still designed to have some amount of friability. The real problems come in with heavily dished, hard, naturals; Idwal, Charnley, Turkish, or any of the Arkansas stones, are all a bit of a nightmare.)


do you use a respirator when flattening the stones ?


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## captaincaed (Jan 7, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Or am I just going to get SiC powder flying everywhere, make a right mess, and risk breaking the stone...?


I love your take on what we call "redneck ingenuity". But yes this is what will happen. But **** try it on a cheap stone you don't like! Get a PSA orbital sander, some double sided tape and thrash the wallaby (or whatever the appropriate local billabong term is)


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## cotedupy (Jan 7, 2022)

r0bz said:


> do you use a respirator when flattening the stones ?



If I'm doing it dry, i.e. on belts then yes, certainly - stone dust is very nasty indeed.

When using an atoma or sanding sheets though I do it wet, and don't use a mask.


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## cotedupy (Jan 7, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> I love your take on what we call "redneck ingenuity". But yes this is what will happen. But **** try it on a cheap stone you don't like! Get a PSA orbital sander, some double sided tape and thrash the wallaby (or whatever the appropriate local billabong term is)



Haha! I might have to try it sometime, if I can figure out a very secure way to attach a stone with either tape, or maybe that seriously strong plastic velcro type stuff that backs the sanding sheets it normally has...


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 7, 2022)

The other concern I would have using an orbital, depending on its size, is if you could keep everything flat and even across the whole surface.


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## captaincaed (Jan 7, 2022)

One thing that might work is a shaker table. It's lab equipment that moves a plane in an orbit at varying speeds, much slower than a sander. If you're handy with tools you could make one, or maybe find one surplussed from a university lab.


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## r0bz (Jan 7, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> If I'm doing it dry, i.e. on belts then yes, certainly - stone dust is very nasty indeed.
> 
> When using an atoma or sanding sheets though I do it wet, and don't use a mask.


you mean if you do it wet with a wet sandpaper and apply water constantly you dont need a respirator ?


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## Greasylake (Jan 7, 2022)

r0bz said:


> you mean if you do it wet with a wet sandpaper and apply water constantly you dont need a respirator ?


Water keeps dust from flying around, so you don't need a mask.


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## captaincaed (Jan 7, 2022)

Water, you know the wet stuff?


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## cotedupy (Jan 7, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> The other concern I would have using an orbital, depending on its size, is if you could keep everything flat and even across the whole surface.



Yeah that is a good point, if the stone starts getting larger that the sander surface it'd be tricky.



captaincaed said:


> One thing that might work is a shaker table. It's lab equipment that moves a plane in an orbit at varying speeds, much slower than a sander. If you're handy with tools you could make one, or maybe find one surplussed from a university lab.



Might have a look into this, ta.

What I should really do is get round to befriending the guy who lives opposite me in Aus, who's a stone mason. Then I could just use all his kit .


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## Bolek (Jan 7, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I love my Atoma 140/400 combi, but I love it _too much_. I use it all the time for some quite extensive flattening of natural stones that I should probably being using SiC powder for but can't be arsed, so instead I use the atoma and end up spending lots of money on replacement sheets all the time because it's so feckin' convenient...
> 
> Is there another way???
> 
> ...


How long an Atoma last ?
I use a DMD :








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It is not very fast but I lower high spots during sharpening. I first flatern an area big enough to apply a knife. Then I test the stone on said flat area. When I sharpen on the flate area it increase in size.
I also use worn sand paper trown in the bin by the company I work for. The #60 and # 120, don't last long but are for free. Water is needed to avoid clogging.
I tied #80 grit diamond plate. It last me less than 1 minute.


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## KingShapton (Jan 7, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> For novaculite, #60 SiC powder. Anything else I've used has been a joke. I'm talking full flattening a translucent


I want to try # 16 and # 30 Sic Powder soon, hopefully that should lead to success faster!


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## cotedupy (Jan 7, 2022)

Bolek said:


> How long an Atoma last ?



Umm, it's a bit difficult to say, and kinda depends what I'm using it for. But I've killed the last replacements in about 6 weeks; using every day, and on some very hard stuff during that time. More normally maybe 4 months, still using every day but for less heavy work.


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## TB_London (Jan 7, 2022)

You can get diamond plates pretty cheap from china, I’d give some of the £2 ones a go for the bulk if you don’t want to go the powered route. Or could try a diamond grinding disk in an angle grinder to get you 90% of the way there. You only need something flat for the final bit


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 7, 2022)

TB_London said:


> Or could try a diamond grinding disk in an angle grinder to get you 90% of the way there. You only need something flat for the final bit


☝ This! I recently bought an 8" round diamond grinding disc for $35 (to flatten the bases of my ceramics) but it'll take a long while to report on its longevity.

But considering the work you're doing, you'd be better served using cheap diamond plates for all the rough flattening. Save the Atoma for the last 5% where flatness really matters, and surface conditioning.


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## ModRQC (Jan 7, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Umm, it's a bit difficult to say, and kinda depends what I'm using it for. But I've killed the last replacements in about 6 weeks; using every day, and on some very hard stuff during that time. More normally maybe 4 months, still using every day but for less heavy work.



How about hitting Atoma and asking how to become a distributor?


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 7, 2022)

"HeavyHanded" on BladeForums recommends a #170 diamond lapidary disk. I prefer the finish from loose grit so I haven't purchased one.



> I use a 170 mesh diamond 8" diameter on a 1/4" aluminum disk, with 1/2" arbor. You can get them with a solid surface that are back mounted as well. Mine is the cheapest brand available at Kingsly North, but there are a number of lapidary supply shops out there. Just use by hand like any other flattening plate, you get a lot of surface area. The finer mesh plates are a bit too tame for resurfacing stones, and the coarser ones tear up the outside edges of your harder ceramic stones.
> 
> The 170 is perfect for all the lower grit stones and on the polishing grade stones you just need to go over it with a nagura after use.
> 
> *The biggest thing is the bond plating is made for grinding stones - it does a poor job on steel but will likely last forever if only used to flatten waterstones - I'm not exaggerating.*


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Jan 7, 2022)

Covington - Vibra Lap


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## branwell (Jan 9, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Is there another way???


I use the $30 dollar 140 plate from CKTG. Been using the current one for 8 years. That said, I've never used it on steel, only stones. Never tried an Atoma so don't know how it would hold up vs that, but on the nats and synthetics I have, and given I sharpen on and off professionally, 8 years is not bad.


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## cotedupy (Jan 9, 2022)

TB_London said:


> Or could try a diamond grinding disk in an angle grinder to get you 90% of the way there. You only need something flat for the final bit





spaceconvoy said:


> ☝ This! I recently bought an 8" round diamond grinding disc for $35 (to flatten the bases of my ceramics) but it'll take a long while to report on its longevity.



This certainly sounds like an option that's worth looking into. I've been meaning to get an angle grinder, but hadn't thought of this application. Ta!




branwell said:


> nats and synthetics I have, and given I sharpen on and off professionally, 8 years is not bad.



Certainly not too shabby!

I don't know what you use in terms of naturals, but my big problem is heavily dished old stones, particularly novaculites which are a very different ball game from synths and jnats. I'd still use a diamond plate for maintenance flattening, but at the moment I'm just killing expensive replacement sheets trying to get things sorted in the first place.

Or maybe I should just stop buying billions of old stones!


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## ModRQC (Jan 9, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> This certainly sounds like an option that's worth looking into. I've been meaning to get an angle grinder, but hadn't thought of this application. Ta!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You certainly shouldn’t if it drives you but you sure need a more adapted tool there. Burning Atomas in a matter of weeks is expensive. Possibly exhausting work too.


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## r0bz (Jan 10, 2022)

branwell said:


> I use the $30 dollar 140 plate from CKTG. Been using the current one for 8 years. That said, I've never used it on steel, only stones. Never tried an Atoma so don't know how it would hold up vs that, but on the nats and synthetics I have, and given I sharpen on and off professionally, 8 years is not bad.


sounds very interesting do you recommend for me to buy the cktg 140 or the atoma 140 ?


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## Kawa (Jan 10, 2022)

He never tried the atoma and is pleased with the cheap knockoff.

Why/how would he recommend the atoma?


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## ModRQC (Jan 10, 2022)

Kawa said:


> He never tried the atoma and is pleased with the cheap knockoff.
> 
> Why/how would he recommend the atoma?



Only answer is: for the same reason the question was asked to begin with…


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## branwell (Jan 10, 2022)

r0bz said:


> sounds very interesting do you recommend for me to buy the cktg 140 or the atoma 140 ?



I don't have the Atoma to do a direct comparison so have no way of knowing if the Atoma is better or worth the extra money.

There are some differences.

The Atoma has its diamonds arranged in clusters. Apparently that reduces stiction if a bunch of mud builds up. The CKTG plate has its diamonds layed out evenly. I flatten pretty wet and have never hand any stiction issues so don't know if that is a true advantage or a marketing thing. If I had stiction issues, I'd probably look at a totally different design, something with big grooves perhaps.

The Atoma is aluminum. The CKTG is steel. Want a lighter more mobile plate or one that feels more planted?

Atoma sells stick-on diamond surfaces so you can make a two sided plate. That might be nice.

The Atoma probably has more street cred. If branding is important to you, that might be something to consider.


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## cotedupy (Jan 11, 2022)

branwell said:


> The Atoma has its diamonds arranged in clusters. Apparently that reduces stiction if a bunch of mud builds up. The CKTG plate has its diamonds layed out evenly. I flatten pretty wet and have never hand any stiction issues so don't know if that is a true advantage or a marketing thing. If I had stiction issues, I'd probably look at a totally different design, something with big grooves perhaps.



I'd never heard of this alleged design feature. I suspect, as in your experience, it makes no difference at all at the levels we're talking about for knife stone flattening. Maybe if someone's using a worn 1200 on some 5+ level razor jnat stiction might come into play, but I can't see it being an issue generally.

If I was in the states I'd definitely be looking into the CKTG alternative.


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## r0bz (Jan 12, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I love my Atoma 140/400 combi, but I love it _too much_. I use it all the time for some quite extensive flattening of natural stones that I should probably being using SiC powder for but can't be arsed, so instead I use the atoma and end up spending lots of money on replacement sheets all the time because it's so feckin' convenient...
> 
> Is there another way???
> 
> ...


how do you detach and install the atoma 140 replacment ?


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## tcmx3 (Jan 12, 2022)

branwell said:


> I don't have the Atoma to do a direct comparison so have no way of knowing if the Atoma is better or worth the extra money.
> 
> There are some differences.
> 
> ...



to me atomas already have too much stiction on muddier naturals.

which is why I am considering a nanohone when the timing is convenient.

I appreciate plates are not even close to the cheapest solution, but I do appreciate knowing how flat a plate Im getting when I buy something from atoma or nanohone. flatness itself is a fascinating subject and frankly beyond my personal understanding of engineering; I know just enough to know how little I really know about it, and maybe Im just assuming more flatter is more better and that's wrong, but both atoma and nanohone are known to be engineered to a pretty good level of flatness as far as they claim/I am aware.


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## M1k3 (Jan 12, 2022)

r0bz said:


> how do you detach and install the atoma 140 replacment ?


Peel it off. Stick a butter knife or Chinese cleaver between the plate and atoma sheet and pry it off. It's just glue, not even the crazy or super kind.


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## r0bz (Jan 12, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Peel it off. Stick a butter knife or Chinese cleaver between the plate and atoma sheet and pry it off. It's just glue, not even the crazy or super kind.


man don't disrespect the Chinese cleaver  
thanks for the info


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## KingShapton (Jan 12, 2022)

tcmx3 said:


> to me atomas already have too much stiction on muddier naturals


Atomas with handles are available, there is significantly less stiction. Maybe it would be worth trying again?


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## Leo Barr (Jan 12, 2022)

tcmx3 said:


> to me atomas already have too much stiction on muddier naturals.
> 
> which is why I am considering a nanohone when the timing is convenient.
> 
> I appreciate plates are not even close to the cheapest solution, but I do appreciate knowing how flat a plate Im getting when I buy something from atoma or nanohone. flatness itself is a fascinating subject and frankly beyond my personal understanding of engineering; I know just enough to know how little I really know about it, and maybe Im just assuming more flatter is more better and that's wrong, but both atoma and nanohone are known to be engineered to a pretty good level of flatness as far as they claim/I am aware.


How do you find the nonohone I know the star shaped ones are expensive are they worth almost double the price of the shapton glass flattening plate which is about 3x the price of an Atoma I sharpen professionally & flatten 1K & under stones with Atoma above !k I use the Shapton glass I have looked at the nano hone but wonder if it is worth the high price & how is the wear on it?


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## tcmx3 (Jan 12, 2022)

Leo Barr said:


> How do you find the nonohone I know the star shaped ones are expensive are they worth almost double the price of the shapton glass flattening plate which is about 3x the price of an Atoma I sharpen professionally & flatten 1K & under stones with Atoma above !k I use the Shapton glass I have looked at the nano hone but wonder if it is worth the high price & how is the wear on it?



maybe it wasnt clear in my post but Im going to buy one after my atoma gives up the ghost.

you can ask Milan Gravier and Forty Ounce about their experiences. I know Milan had a button come out but iirc nanohone fixed it


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## Dakota Day Trader (Jan 13, 2022)

I started off using the Atoma 140 & 400 plate combo, but upgraded to a Nano-Hone NL-5 when MTC had their 20% off Christmas coupon 2 years ago.

The NL-5 is IMO *FAR* superior to the Atomas. It cuts just as fast as a 140, but leaves a finish even better than the 400 or 600. Especially since there are no deep scratches to remove. I may even rank the NL-5 a bit faster since there is no suction and/or needing to clean the plate as much at the Atoma. Plus, your overall time will be less since this is a one-and-done plate that will work on stones up to 30,000. I don't have a 30K stone, but have tried it on my Shapton Glass 16K and it works fast and leaves an awesome finish. This thing is just a pleasure to use! 

Aside from the cost, about the only other drawback to this plate is that you can't just hit the corners of the stone to knock them down like you can on an Atoma because of the design. For me it's not a big deal as I'm not a corner knocker-off-er. I run the plate along the sides/top and bottoms of my stones to make a nice, clean chamfer or slightly rounded edge.

I wouldn't mind trying the NL-8 with the buttons, but for now I am more than happy with the NL-5!


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## Kawa (Jan 13, 2022)

For the corners, buy a 20,- naniwa (or whatever) flattening plate (with thediagonal grooves) and use the backside. It doenst matter that you ruin the backside with it.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 13, 2022)

Dakota Day Trader said:


> I started off using the Atoma 140 & 400 plate combo, but upgraded to a Nano-Hone NL-5 when MTC had their 20% off Christmas coupon 2 years ago.
> 
> The NL-5 is IMO *FAR* superior to the Atomas. It cuts just as fast as a 140, but leaves a finish even better than the 400 or 600. Especially since there are no deep scratches to remove. I may even rank the NL-5 a bit faster since there is no suction and/or needing to clean the plate as much at the Atoma. Plus, your overall time will be less since this is a one-and-done plate that will work on stones up to 30,000. I don't have a 30K stone, but have tried it on my Shapton Glass 16K and it works fast and leaves an awesome finish. This thing is just a pleasure to use!
> 
> ...



I have a NL-4 and I love it. I know what it is rated for but I use it on my Shapton Glass 2k and 4k with no issues. I just use a light hand on the 4k. That stone dishes so little for me that it doesn't a lot anyway.

I was fortunate to pick it up here at a very good price and as much as full retail makes me wince, if a sharpening thief broke in and stole my NL-4, I would probably buy another over an Atoma 140. The lack of stiction alone is almost worth it.

I can't say how they hold up under heavy use but I can agree with @Dakota Day Trader that they sure are nice.


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## scrappy (Mar 26, 2022)

Does flattening plates wear out really quickly? I am new to sharpening. I have just started on an Shapton Pro 1K, my only stone. I have an Atoma 140 which I haven’t used yet. Am I going to be buying replacement sheets all the time? Sounds like it would get expensive fast. Maybe I should be asking what “extensive“ means instead


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## M1k3 (Mar 26, 2022)

scrappy said:


> Does flattening plates wear out really quickly? I am new to sharpening. I have just started on an Shapton Pro 1K, my only stone. I have an Atoma 140 which I haven’t used yet. Am I going to be buying replacement sheets all the time? Sounds like it would get expensive fast. Maybe I should be asking what “extensive“ means instead


Keep it away from Shapton Pro 120, Crystolon's, India's and Arkansas/other really hard natural/synthetic stones and it'll last a long time.


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## scrappy (Mar 26, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Keep it away from Shapton Pro 120, Crystolon's, India's and Arkansas/other really hard natural/synthetic stones and it'll last a long time.


Thanks. That’s a weight off my mind. I was beginning to worry there.


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