# Yanagi Stainless or Carbon?



## Ruso (May 23, 2014)

Basically the subject  I want to get a Yanagiba one day - hence I started considering what I need. I was thinking 270 or 300mm (opinion on the length appreciated as well). Though, the main question is; What steel type is better suited or more traditionally used/accepted for a Yanagiba? I can see pluses and minuses of both so I am little bit lost here.

Thanks.


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## kpnv (May 23, 2014)

it's much easier to find carbon ones. 270mm should be good enough for someone dipping their toes. stainless yanagi cost more and they're typically ginsanko anyway, nothing fancy. i'll take the ease of sharpening and sharpness of white steel any day over ginsanko. considering that you would most likely have to learn to sharpen single bevel, it's easy to start with white #2.


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## BeerChef (May 23, 2014)

I started with a budget w2 yanagiba and still use and love it.


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## batagor (May 23, 2014)

I started with 240mm W2 yanagiba but later on realized I like a little longer knife. 270mm is perfect for me.


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## dough (May 23, 2014)

like anything you can get a great stainless yanagiba but honestly my suggestion is dont go too cheap on your first one because cheap ones can be great knives but tend to take more skill to refine the shinogi line or high and low spots on the bevel. the main advantage i see to stainless is that if working in a fast paced environment you dont have to wipe the knife quite as often or can wipe it and leave it wet saving valuable seconds needed in a professional environment. at home i see little reason to buy one other then you like it and want it but you will find most are carbon as they have been for a long time. honestly I'd steer you towards a fugubiki... they are a more slender/less tall version of a yanagiba. I think they are easier to learn on because they are so slender you won't want to push the knife and instead will allow the knife to cut but with that said cheap fugubiki are hard to find and entry level carbon yanagiba abound but like i said go too cheap and you will be left a bit confused particularly because all stones dont evenly like to sharpen wide bevels and take a slurry to coax an even finish out of them and a lot of patience and feeling beyond that. 
anyway there are many here that are both better with their words and have more experience then me so listen up if they stop by and my only other best advice is single bevel taught me the most about subtle cutting. you should be holding the knife like a pool cue in that, i should be able to walk by and pull the knife right out of your hand while you are cutting because you are holding it with that little effort. if your arent cutting that way odds are your edge isnt sharp enough or you aren't feeling the edge to allow it to do its job. i know yanagiba to be delicate, sensitive and reactive while maintaining an ability to accomplish so much if you are willing to allow your edge to see through the cut without using too much of your force... if you push it you will crush the edge so be prepared both to want to take your edges to that point and likewise be ready when you arent used to how sensitive things can be. ill for instance you in that i cut or others i know way better then me and we cut sashimi very quick but my edge and theirs spend little time touching the board if ever really touch the board bc the edges on these knives is easily sharp enough to cut into a board but cutting a board will destroy your edge so fast you will want to learn to be very careful when you get close and like many things in the world there is a fine line between perfect and ruined and it takes a refined mind to live on that edge.
hopefully that not nonsense but goodluck in your journey. lord knows im not very good but have been lucky to know good and a few that were great or beyond but im lucky because they were willing to not deny me anything I hoped to learn. haha mostly i learned everything is easy until you try to refine it.


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## Ruso (May 24, 2014)

Thanks all for the advice.
Looks like Shirogami 270mm will be something to look for.

Dough, in my head the main advantage of stainless besides what you've described is that stainless steel does not react with food, hence does not discolor or transfer the metal taste to the fish. I might be wrong but that what I thought. 
When you mention "not to buy a cheap one", what would say a good entry price rage ~$300? And thanks for the all the tips, much appreciated.

BeerChef, do you mind to share which one is it?


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## D3st1n (May 24, 2014)

I prefer carbon for my yanagi. I been working as a sushi chef for over 10 years, I have experience with both carbon and stainless. From my experience, carbon (specially b2 which is my favorite) has more sharpness, I slice hundreds or even thousand slices everyday and still sharp enough. When I use a stainless yanagi (ginsanko) is less sharp after maybe close to hundred slices. It's only stainless that I like is suisin inox honyaki, it's hold the sharpness/ edge retention almost like my other carbon yanagi, but suisin IH more easy to maintain, and keep it clean. 
This is just my personal experience. So my advice is go to carbon for yanagi, as long maintaining. Just wipe after use it with wet and clean dry towel. It won't get rust. If you think your knife will rest for more than couples of week just oil it.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 24, 2014)

D3st1n said:


> I prefer carbon for my yanagi. I been working as a sushi chef for over 10 years, I have experience with both carbon and stainless. From my experience, carbon (specially b2 which is my favorite) has more sharpness, I slice hundreds or even thousand slices everyday and still sharp enough. When I use a stainless yanagi (ginsanko) is less sharp after maybe close to hundred slices. It's only stainless that I like is suisin inox honyaki, it's hold the sharpness/ edge retention almost like my other carbon yanagi, but suisin IH more easy to maintain, and keep it clean.
> This is just my personal experience. So my advice is go to carbon for yanagi, as long maintaining. Just wipe after use it with wet and clean dry towel. It won't get rust. If you think your knife will rest for more than couples of week just oil it.



+1


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## BeerChef (May 24, 2014)

I jumped off with a tojiro w2 270. Needed a bit of work ootb but for the price it's tough to beat.


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## dough (May 24, 2014)

yes i think for $300 you should be able to get a great knife give or take per what you think you like.
i like mizuno a lot and the white steel is in your price range they are sold at jck.(i own and have used others but if i lost them all and was to spend around 300 rather then the 600 id spend now thats what i would buy but its an extreme need to me that makes me money) if you have an idea of a knife you like just ask if i havent used it because there are so many im sure someone has and by all means put up a wtb post and see what is offered.

although i havent tried one, jons uraku line is well under your price range and his f&f will be better then most at that price.
also since someone said torijo it in fact represents exactly what i was talking about. sure i'd reccomend it to one of my guys but I'm standing next to him and can fix his knife and help him understand its short comings. you are alone and hell i have seen those things come bent... im not fixing a bent knife and you shouldn't be sold a bent knife of this style in the first place which is why i say deal with jon because that guy will take care of you. koki also will take care of you but they are further away and there is a language barrier and just stuff happens cause he is bigger then jon that he may not know about but he does strive to do a good job so i like them.

also in response to metal taste its not like you are cutting juicy onions but its been my experience the carbon yanagiba that i have used were not incredibly reactive plus you are wiping the knife constantly; you cant make clean cuts with a dirty edge anyway so it is really a non-issue. the reactive side of it for me is more an issue when i am busy and leave the knife wet after wiping because i forgot/didnt have time to dry it so in turn i might come back to find it discolored. easy to fix but really never had a metal taste cutting fish but again just wipe the knife clean and dry and you wont have any issues.

btw ill just add for the record there are not a lot of stainless yanagiba and even rarer to see differing steels like say cpm-154 or aeb-l or the incredibly expensive zdp. there are very few people with experience using great stainless steels in this design so take everyone's opinion there with a grain of salt and my opinion is that if i could convince butch harner to make me one, I highly doubt I would be disappointed. now with that said your pocket book would have to be pretty wide open for such a knife and its hardly a purchase one makes before they even use a single bevel.

anyway beyond my 2 cents but i like your tone and feel so you get my vigor peace sir.


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## Ruso (Jun 8, 2014)

Thanks all again for pitching in - very much appreciated. So I was looking around too see what is available in my price range and there are few candidates I've found. I hope you guys can pitch in a lil bit more with your knowledge and experiences. 
1. Masamoto KK series 300mm white #2(i guess) $311
Also there is KS series, which is a bit more expensive, any idea what is the real difference?
2.  Mizuno Tanrenjo Hon Kasumi 300mm white #2 $300
3.  JCK Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan 300mm White #2 $295 or White #1 $375
4.  YOSHIKANE 270mm Blue #2 $317
5.  ARITSUGU - Takohiki 300mm Blue #2 $310 
6.  ARITSUGU - Yanagiba 300mm White #2 $273

Without knowing much I am in between option 2 as recommended by dough, option 3 and option 5 which is Takohiki by Artisugu. Hope to hear your recommendations and experiences...


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 9, 2014)

I used a Aritsugu blue yanagiba 270mm at work several yrs. cutting banquet sashimi & sushi topping great knife.


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## D3st1n (Jun 9, 2014)

Takohiki purposes is for cutting octopus, but in Tokyo many Japanese chefs use it for slicing sashimi (not sushi/nigiri), because at the end of the knife is square and not curve enough and so uncomfortable to slice. I don't recommend takohiki for general slicing purposes. I will cross out my takohiki option. Just go with yanagiba. 

Between Masamoto KK and KS it's two different forging methods. KK is kasumi, KS is honkasumi. Witch is kasumi soft iron body of the blade + carbon steel . Honkasumi is higher grade of kasumi and it is more harder blade. Kasumi is easier to sharpen but it doesn't hold the edge retention so long. Honkasumi is more difficult to sharpen but hold the edge more longer. That's why the price is so much different. 

Hopefully this will help you to choose which one is right for you. Good luck... and maybe somebody in this forum will help you to guide or write the review of those brands on your list.


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## zitangy (Jun 9, 2014)

Have tried both stainless Masahiro Yanagi and Usuba.. their entry level. Tried to live with carbon knives.. Unfortunately not my cup of tea.. the cleaning part.

In my quest for a stainless version, I came across the Sugimoto CM series and I was not disappointed. Have always been pleased with their Western Gyuto. Also just picked up an Usuba 180mm recently and I was not disappointed with the sharpness . .. more so after stropping it on leather with black compound ( a new try out for me). Fixed the sharp ends of the machi and I am a happy camper.

hv fun adn rgds...
D


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## daveb (Jun 9, 2014)

This knife on B/S/T may be the easy answer. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/18386-FS-Yoshihiro-White-2-yanagi-300mm

I bought one of these as my first yani and have since owned a couple others that were much more expensive. When I downsized to one, the JKI Yoshihiro was the keeper. No regrets.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jun 9, 2014)

D3st1n said:


> Takohiki purposes is for cutting octopus, but in Tokyo many Japanese chefs use it for slicing sashimi (not sushi/nigiri), because at the end of the knife is square and not curve enough and so uncomfortable to slice. I don't recommend takohiki for general slicing purposes. I will cross out my takohiki option. Just go with yanagiba.
> 
> Between Masamoto KK and KS it's two different forging methods. KK is kasumi, KS is honkasumi. Witch is kasumi soft iron body of the blade + carbon steel . Honkasumi is higher grade of kasumi and it is more harder blade. Kasumi is easier to sharpen but it doesn't hold the edge retention so long. Honkasumi is more difficult to sharpen but hold the edge more longer. That's why the price is so much different.
> 
> Hopefully this will help you to choose which one is right for you. Good luck... and maybe somebody in this forum will help you to guide or write the review of those brands on your list.



The blades do not have different forging methods. Korin states it well: "The difference between the kasumi and hongasumi line is found in the crafting process. More steps, higher level craftsman, and greater attention to detail are involved when crafting hongasumi knives, and they therefore are more refined than kasumi knives."

Both lines are white #2 core hardened to ~ 62-63 Rockwell.

Perhaps you are confusing these lines with the ao-ko hongasumi line, which has a core of blue #2?


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## Ruso (Jun 9, 2014)

Not making it easier guys... :-/ just half kidding thanks all for the input I will keep :scratchhead:



> The blades do not have different forging methods. Korin states it well: "The difference between the kasumi and hongasumi line is found in the crafting process. More steps, higher level craftsman, and greater attention to detail are involved when crafting hongasumi knives, and they therefore are more refined than kasumi knives."



Basically, KS line has better F&F than KK but the performance of both will be similar; Do I stand correct?

Anybody had experience with JCK Fu-rin-ka-zan in White #1 line? I never tried white #1, and I am quite inserted in giving it a shot....?


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## cheflarge (Jun 9, 2014)

I would not be to quick to dismiss the takobiki, either. The purpose of the squared tip, was so that when serving royalty &/or high faluten types, it was considered in polite to point anything at your guest. Hence the squared tip (when you picked up your portion and served the custormer, you would not be "pointing" anything at them). It just so happened that the aforementioned squared tip also worked extremelly well for octopus.

I have a 330mm takobiki that I even use for Prime Rib from time to time and I actually prefer it for sushi/sashimi work.


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## Ruso (Jun 9, 2014)

Another option I just remembered is Watanabee pro line. Any thoughts abt it? Old posts seems to praise his work, while lately it looks like he does not receive that much love anymore.


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## LKH9 (Jun 9, 2014)

cheflarge said:


> I would not be to quick to dismiss the takobiki, either. The purpose of the squared tip, was so that when serving royalty &/or high faluten types, it was considered in polite to point anything at your guest. Hence the squared tip (when you picked up your portion and served the custormer, you would not be "pointing" anything at them). It just so happened that the aforementioned squared tip also worked extremelly well for octopus.
> 
> I have a 330mm takobiki that I even use for Prime Rib from time to time and I actually prefer it for sushi/sashimi work.



It does feel bad or even threatening when someone points a sharp blade at me even if that's not the intention. :knife:


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## Dardeau (Jun 9, 2014)

I actually got to side by side compare a coworkers KK with my KS yanagiba today. They were honestly pretty similar but that KK was picked out at Korin in person by my coworkers husband (she apparently swiped it out of his roll), so if that is an option you might be able to chance it. Ordering sight unseen, maybe go with the KS.


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## Ruso (Jun 12, 2014)

AAAAAAARGH cant choose!!! Why so difficult, god dammit!


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## cheflarge (Jun 15, 2014)

So what did you end up doing?


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## Ruso (Jun 16, 2014)

Nothing  
Since I cant decide and tbh time was scare for last several weeks I could not make further research. In addition Koki from JCK seem to ignore my questions so it's even harder now.


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## Ruso (Jun 28, 2014)

After some more reading, research and a gut feeling I decided to go with Watanabe 270mm White #2 Yanagi. I hope not to be disappointed as I've read only positive review of his single bevels.


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## cheflarge (Jun 28, 2014)

Good choice. Hope it works out.


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## KitKat (Jun 29, 2014)

At least its shirogami #2 so it should be quite sharp. Never owned a Watanabe, but have heard mixed reviews. Depends on the user I suppose.


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## glestain (Jun 29, 2014)

why not white #1?


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## Ruso (Jun 30, 2014)

KitKat said:


> At least its shirogami #2 so it should be quite sharp. Never owned a Watanabe, but have heard mixed reviews. Depends on the user I suppose.


I did not see much negative on his single bevel knives. The mixed reviews I found are mostly towards his double bevel. 



> why not white #1?


I would gladly buy one in white #1 but Watanabe does not use white #1 AFAIK. And the only white #1 in my price range I found was JCK FRKZ series which I could not find much about. 



> Good choice. Hope it works out.



Me 2


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## cheflarge (Jul 1, 2014)

Sure it will, keep the faith!


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## schanop (Jul 26, 2014)

Now that you have already had a bad experience with Watanabe, may I suggest Hide white #1? 270 is just $240, and 300 is just $290 from here, direct from Japan.


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## Ruso (Jul 26, 2014)

schanop said:


> Now that you have already had a bad experience with Watanabe, may I suggest Hide white #1? 270 is just $240, and 300 is just $290 from here, direct from Japan.



Thank you. 
Hide is definitely on my list. Also, may be a Gesshin Hide in Blue #1 from JKI.


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