# Home espresso machines



## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

Hi everyone,

I want to canvass opinions about high quality home espresso machines. I currently have a 10 yr old Saeco Incanto fully automatic which is ok for a fully automatic machine but I wonder how long it has left. I'm thinking that a manual or a semi automatic macine might be the go next time, but I want to be able to make great espresso with it.

Thanks for your experience & opinons.


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## Tobes (Jan 3, 2017)

Rancilio Sylvia. Most affordable entry machine for professional Barista-quality espresso. Have mine since 9 years and will never live without a manual professional grade espresso machine again. Although one could of course go for higher quality and comfort if more money is available. Dont forget a decent grinder, though. Thats actually the first and most important leap towards high quality home made coffee, no matter the actual brewing method.


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

Tobes said:


> Rancilio Sylvia. Most affordable entry machine for professional Barista-quality espresso. Have mine since 9 years and will never live without a manual professional grade espresso machine again. Although one could of course go for higher quality and comfort if more money is available. Dont forget a decent grinder, though. Thats actually the first and most important leap towards high quality home made coffee, no matter the actual brewing method.



Thanks Tobes. Which grinder do you recommend?


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## khashy (Jan 3, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I want to canvass opinions about high quality home espresso machines. I currently have a 10 yr old Saeco Incanto fully automatic which is ok for a fully automatic machine but I wonder how long it has left. I'm thinking that a manual or a semi automatic macine might be the go next time, but I want to be able to make great espresso with it.
> 
> Thanks for your experience & opinons.



What's your budget Nemo? Total I mean for machine and grinder?


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## Mute-on (Jan 3, 2017)

Silvia and Compak K3. 
Nothing else is necessary for a great espresso


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

Thanks.


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## Tobes (Jan 3, 2017)

I have a very affordable Demoka grinder, again, lowest level entry machine for professional grade results. I am not sure theres that much difference as soon as you shop for real professional grinder. Make sure its a disk grinder with the slowest possible RPM. Noise might be another consideration.


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## rahimlee54 (Jan 3, 2017)

I'd just go check out chris's coffee service. Most machines and grinders sold there are of great quality. I bought a used Compak K10 for a good price. It is overkill for home use but it works great. I had a quickmill silvano with PID and it made a great cup. I bought slightly used La Marzocco GS3 that I got for a great price, it also makes great coffee.

I read the blue bottle coffee book a couple of years ago, the author James Freeman owns the brand. After he talked about espresso brewing and machine types his advice was very simple. "Spend $2000 USD and buy the heaviest machine you can find." I wouldn't say everyone would want to do that but it's short and pretty good advice without to much research.


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## WildBoar (Jan 3, 2017)

go used for the grinder. There are boatloads of Mazzer Super Jollys out there. They usually just need a new set of burrs. You can save several hundred dollars.


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## khashy (Jan 3, 2017)

The GS3/K10 combo is beast of a duet to have but we are into the thousands of dollars territory there.

Might be that Nemo is happy to drop the $$ on a bad ass setup like yours.

I couldn't go that far personally even though I would have loved to get my hands on a GS3.

I would echo what has been said about considering the secondary market. There are some fantastic machines and grinders to be had pre-loved in brilliant conditions.

My setup is a Gaggia classic (pre-2015, i.e. The good ones) and a Mazzer Superjolly:












Both of these were purchased pre-loved in as new condition.

The Mazzer is a beast, it truely is. I would say that 70% of the coffee shops I frequent in London use this as their primary grinder. I bagged mine for £250 (about 310USD with today's rates) three years ago. 

The Gaggia is a capable machine out of the box. I paid £130 (about 160USD) for it three years ago, again as new.

Now the pro coffee gurus would be able to extract a fantastic cup with the Gaggia as is. I however have heavily modified the Gaggia and can now produce shots that I believe can stand up to any you get from a coffee shop, if not better.

The mods are many and some of them a little pricy and time consuming, so if you are happy to get your hands dirty, go the Gaggia route.

The Sylivia is a much better version of the Gaggia. Very capable with more 'industrial grade' parts (much more brass than the Gaggia) but still has it's limitations - lack of a PID being the main. However because the Sylvia's boiler is significantly larger than the Gaggia, the lack of a PID is much less of an issue and you can create really good shots with it as is.

These two are the most entry level I would consider. If the budget is high enough, a whole new world opens up with HX machines and double boilers etc. 

I would however not neglect the grinder. I cannot stress this enough. The world's best coffee machine will have it's hands tied with a crappy grinder. Spend at the very least the same amount of $$ on the grinder as tye coffee machine itself.

I spend 2x on the grinder and I am glad I did every time I pull a shot.

get as good a grinder as you can.

Separately, depending on how much of a coffee geek you are/want to be, have you considered lever coffee machines?

I think I'll stop here...


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## rahimlee54 (Jan 3, 2017)

khashy said:


> The GS3/K10 combo is beast of a duet to have but we are into the thousands of dollars territory there.
> 
> Might be that Nemo is happy to drop the $$ on a bad ass setup like yours.
> 
> ...



There are alot of options . I kinda want to mess around with a lever machine.

Nemo if you are wanting a short list for research a budget would be helpful. However, there are any number of machines that will do a great job. If you could also include drinks you like to make, which will also influence choices. I'd also echo grinder selection, spend the money there for best results.

Jared


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## Lars (Jan 3, 2017)

Stored away in the basement there is a Dalla Corte Mini and a K30 - in the kitchen there is a cheap ass grinder and a couple of french press pots. 
The thing I miss is geeking out making espresso - I really do enjoy black coffee the most.
Maybe someday I will haul the heavy machinery out of storage and play around again.

On topic - agree that a used Super jolly is hard to beat. Also think that the grinder is more important than the espresso machine. As is good water.
If I were to do it again I think I would go for the best used grinder I could find and buy something like a Silvia and install a PID.

Good luck and have fun,

Lars


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## khashy (Jan 3, 2017)

rahimlee54 said:


> There are alot of options . I kinda want to mess around with a lever machine.
> 
> Nemo if you are wanting a short list for research a budget would be helpful. However, there are any number of machines that will do a great job. If you could also include drinks you like to make, which will also influence choices. I'd also echo grinder selection, spend the money there for best results.
> 
> Jared



I installed a digital dimmer and hooked it up to the (upgraded) pump on the Gaggia. Next step is to hook up a set of digital scales to an Arduino board and control the dimmer from there.

My theory is that this would allow me to mimick the pressure profile of a lever machine. I have everything I need delivered now - I just have to hook it all up and write some code. All this knife-business is getting in the way though :biggrin:

Levers are tough to live with but imho nothing compares to the taste that a lever can extract when used properly.

Ofcourse a Londonium would be a dream come true


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

khashy said:


> I installed a digital dimmer and hooked it up to the (upgraded) pump on the Gaggia. Next step is to hook up a set of digital scales to an Arduino board and control the dimmer from there.
> 
> My theory is that this would allow me to mimick the pressure profile of a lever machine. I have everything I need delivered now - I just have to hook it all up and write some code. All this knife-business is getting in the way though :biggrin:
> 
> ...



Thanks for your perspective Khashy. Wow, I've got a lot to learn about coffee.

And thanks for the tip on grinders.


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

rahimlee54 said:


> There are alot of options . I kinda want to mess around with a lever machine.
> 
> Nemo if you are wanting a short list for research a budget would be helpful. However, there are any number of machines that will do a great job. If you could also include drinks you like to make, which will also influence choices. I'd also echo grinder selection, spend the money there for best results.
> 
> Jared



I was thinking somewhere around 2-3 K US. I mainly make espresso and cafe latte/ flat white.


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

Lars said:


> Stored away in the basement there is a Dalla Corte Mini and a K30 - in the kitchen there is a cheap ass grinder and a couple of french press pots.
> The thing I miss is geeking out making espresso - I really do enjoy black coffee the most.
> Maybe someday I will haul the heavy machinery out of storage and play around again.
> 
> ...



Thanks Lars.

What do you mean by good water?

I filter all water going into the machine (sediment filter then 0.5 micron carbon). For about half of the year we use rainwater (hence the 0.5 micron filter), the other half town water.


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## Mute-on (Jan 3, 2017)

http://www.coffee-a-roma.com.au/shop/en/package-deals-12/rancilio-silvia-v5-compak-k3-push-195.html

Here you go, mate


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

Thanks Mute-on


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## khashy (Jan 3, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I was thinking somewhere around 2-3 K US. I mainly make espresso and cafe latte/ flat white.



Right, that will get you a very decent setup. To be honest because I never intended to spend as much on Setup, I have never researched this bracket properly and wouldn't want to give feedback on something I'm not super familiar with.

If you are really serious about this, join a forum (obviously the guys here will also steer you in the right direction but in the coffee forums, the audience for the question is that much wider). 

From personal experience (and also because I'm in the UK), the members of http://www.coffeeforums.co.uk are - almost- as nice and knowledgeable as the guys here on KKF.

Off the top of my head, (the GS3 aside as it's above budget), the Rocket machines come to mind, chief among which the R58.

In terms of grinder, the other factor that I would need to know would be how much physical space you have to house them. Some of the better grinders are beasts - I mean HUGE. I would love to get my hands on an EK43 but I would have nowhere to put it on:






It's 30"'tall and weighs 53 lbs.

Anyway, in that price bracket, the choices are vast and I really would encourage you to raise it with the experts (I don't know the Aus forums well enough but home barista is also brilliant )


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## WildBoar (Jan 3, 2017)

www.home-barista.com is a great info source as well. Lots of reviews by working pros and a very active forum.


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## khashy (Jan 3, 2017)

WildBoar said:


> www.home-barista.com is a great info source as well. Lots of reviews by working pros and a very active forum.



+1

They are a fantastic bunch


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## rahimlee54 (Jan 3, 2017)

khashy said:


> +1
> 
> They are a fantastic bunch



That is where I did all my reading as well. I bought my machine from the guy that runs the site. My grinder was one he had that he was replacing. 

Side story - the gs3 I bought was a model he worked to get for review then planned on buying it to take to his car Club. When the time came he didn't want to park that cash in a monthly use portable unit. I browsed Craigslist and made it happen after some initial flip flopping. He now uses a speedster for his car club........


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

Thanks, I'll have a look at those sites.

Thanks to everyone for the informative posts. Glad I asked, as I wouldn't have paid as much attention to the grinder if I hadn't.


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## strumke (Jan 3, 2017)

Do you all leave the beans in the hopper for days or do you put in just a measured amount each time you grind?


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

I've just been reading about this. There are a few approaches but apparently a lot of home barristas grind one baket full of beans and the rule of thumb is that this produces a slightly overflowing basket of grounds.


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## mille162 (Jan 3, 2017)

I had the Delonghi Gran Dama model in my last house (http://www.delonghi.com/en-us/produ...-coffee-makers/gran-dama-esam-6620-0132215101). The option to grind or use preground (i.e. when I didn't want to waste my high price beans on ex's family, lol) as well as the self-cleaning and removable milk canister were all important selling features. I just let my local girl at Williams Sonoma know I was looking for one and when they had a sale I ended up getting an open box ontop of discount so out the door at only $700. There are more "professional" units available, but quick start-up and recycle time and auto self cleaning/turn off along with 1 button operation and a bean hopper meant I used it multiple times a day instead of only a few times a week. I was willing to sacrifice a bit of precision for convenience (although I'm not sure how much more "precise" it would need to be).

A good friend has the Jura XS9 (https://us.jura.com/en/professional/machines/IMPRESSA-XS90-OT-UL-13429/Specifications#tabs) in both his home and vacation house. His priority was capacity without needing to refill the water tank (he often has large family/friend gatherings. The same guy has 2 dishwashers, 3 sinks, 3 SZ fridges...very well planned out kitchen for entertaining!). Both models are several years old and have seen extensive use with no issues, and are both excellent consumer choices.

Since most in the $2k+ range are going to offer the same performance as far as temperature and pressure, you should probably make a secondary list of features you'll want each day and will be using. Programmed on/off, strength and grind settings, multi-function, high capacity, recycle time (a big problem if you make more than 2 cups at a time). You can get kits for most and plump into your existing water supply, but that limits placement (and makes it a bit permanent) and means your using tap water (although I had a RO/DI tank installed inline under my sink to feed mine). Using bottled water is very cheap and easy if you care enough to spend $2-3k on a machine.

Once you get your machine set-up, the fun part is finding your favorite roasters and sources for beans...which is a conversation worthy of it's own thread!


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

I really just want to make small amounts of nice coffee. After doing a bit of the suggested reading, the grinder really does seemto be key to this.

We have 3 or 4 really quite good roasters in town, which is good for really fresh coffee I guess.


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## WildBoar (Jan 3, 2017)

I order 5 lbs of roasted beans at a time. I vacuum seal and freeze them into ~6 bags. One bag will last us about a week, so beans are not out getting stale for more then a week total. For a while I vacuum sealed the 'working' bag of beans after drawing from it each morning, but the crappy Vacmaster canisters kept cracking so I punted that.

I do not leave the hopper on the grinder. I pour beans into the throat, and then put a spare tamper in the throat to keep the beans in place during grinding. I eyeball the level needed in the throat (after 7+ years I do not feel a need to weigh). After I make the 2-4 drinks that morning there will be a few beans in the throat, but they will be used the next morning. With a filled hopper you could have beans out getting stale for a lot longer time period.


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## Mute-on (Jan 3, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I really just want to make small amounts of nice coffee. After doing a bit of the suggested reading, the grinder really does seemto be key to this.
> 
> We have 3 or 4 really quite good roasters in town, which is good for really fresh coffee I guess.



Perhaps I can put the earlier suggestion of Silvia and K3 into context. 

The Silvia was my first machine 16 years ago with a Rocky grinder. The Rocky has 58mm burrs. 

I replaced the Silvia with a La Cimbali Junior (AUD now around $3,000) and continued to use the Rocky. The only difference in output was very fast steaming with the heat exchanger and 2 litre boiler. The Silvia is perfectly capable of an espresso of equal quality, and possibly better if PID'd. 

I finally (2 years ago) replaced the Rocky with a Compak K10 (AUD $2,000 new) that I bought second hand. The Cimbali has had a new portafilter gasket in the last 15 years, and that's it. 

The espresso quality improved with some blends and roasts compared to the Rocky, but not all. The blend, roast, freshness, water temp control, weather, humidity, tamp pressure, volume of grounds in basket, and phase of the moon make as much difference as the equipment at this level.

So, spend under $1,400 and get truly excellent espresso and small volume of lattes, if your technique is perfect, or spend $5,000 and get truly excellent espresso and higher volume of lattes, if your technique is perfect. See where I am going here?

Feel free to read everything written in the last 16 years about the Silvia, Rocky, Mazzer mini, etc, and every machine made since, but you will still end up in the same place. 

Just trying to save you some time and $$, and get you drinking your first amazing home made espresso sooner, mate.

All the best.

J


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## Mute-on (Jan 3, 2017)

Oh, only ever grind per shot, and keep freshly roasted beans for 10 days max in an airtight container in the dark at room temp. Get a good quality tamper and milk jug, and get brewing


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## Nemo (Jan 3, 2017)

Mute-on said:


> Perhaps I can put the earlier suggestion of Silvia and K3 into context.
> 
> The Silvia was my first machine 16 years ago with a Rocky grinder. The Rocky has 58mm burrs.
> 
> ...



Thanks Mute-on, I get what you are saying.

It's rare tahat I make more than 2 lattes at a time and vey rare that it's more than 4. So I guess it's option B and invest in a good grinder.


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## Lars (Jan 4, 2017)

Nemo said:


> What do you mean by good water?



At least in Denmark we have very hard water with lots of calcium so filtration is needed. Both for the taste of coffee and for the health of the machinery.

Lars


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## Marek07 (Jan 4, 2017)

Lars said:


> At least in Denmark we have very hard water with lots of calcium so filtration is needed. Both for the taste of coffee and for the health of the machinery.
> 
> Lars


*+1*
Water must be good just like all the other pieces of the puzzle. When I lived temporarily in Brisbane, the only way to have a decent brew was to use bottled water. Didn't want to invest in a decent filtration system.


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## khashy (Jan 4, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I've just been reading about this. There are a few approaches but apparently a lot of home barristas grind one baket full of beans and the rule of thumb is that this produces a slightly overflowing basket of grounds.



I always single dose. I could do a better job of storing the beans while they are being used but I am a bit lazy and they get consumed within a month if roasting (one week to rest, three weeks before they are used).


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## khashy (Jan 4, 2017)

Lars said:


> At least in Denmark we have very hard water with lots of calcium so filtration is needed. Both for the taste of coffee and for the health of the machinery.
> 
> Lars



Same here. I always use filtered water, though through an extensive experiment on the aforementioned forums, it was found that a particular brand of bottled water yielded the best results in the cup


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## Nemo (Jan 4, 2017)

Wow, a specific brand of water? Does that mean my rainwater filtered through 0.5 um carbon is not ok?


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## Marek07 (Jan 4, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Wow, a specific brand of water? Does that mean my rainwater filtered through 0.5 um carbon is not ok?


What?!? You use just *one* filter?


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## Nemo (Jan 4, 2017)

Well, no, there's a sediment pre-filter.

I actually insralled the 0.5 um carbon in an attempt to filter out parasitic cysts from the rainwater (lots of possums on the roof if you catch my drift).


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## khashy (Jan 4, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Wow, a specific brand of water? Does that mean my rainwater filtered through 0.5 um carbon is not ok?



Yup. This one:


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## Lars (Jan 4, 2017)

khashy said:


> Yup. This one:



I call bulls*it..

Lars


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## Nemo (Jan 4, 2017)

In reading some of the websites that have been suggested in this thread, there does seem to be an optimum hardness of (I think) 40-90ppm. Less than this apparently doesn't allow propper extraction, more causes too much problem with limescale. So rainwarer maybe not ideal?

Even if filtered twice ;-)


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## khashy (Jan 4, 2017)

Lars said:


> I call bulls*it..
> 
> Lars



The thread was waaaay too long, I couldn't be bothered to follow so I won't defend . I just know the outcome was that dude. 

I use a lot of water cleaning the machine and backflushing after every shot and no way was I going to use bottled water for that. So filtered water it is for me.


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## lans8939 (Jan 6, 2017)

Silva was my first quality espresso machine which I used 7 years until I upgraded to an Isomac about 9 years ago. Quality espresso from both machines, however I can make several drinks at a time much more quickly with my Isomac if I have company over. I have had a mazzer mini grinder for 9 years as well. I will never need another grinder but maybe a bit of overkill for general home use. 

Have always used filtered home water never a problem for me.


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## Nemo (Jan 6, 2017)

I've read a quite few reports of Silvias rusting really badley (to the point of being unusable after several years). Can anyone with experience comment on this one way or the other?


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## khashy (Jan 6, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I've read a quite few reports of Silvias rusting really badley (to the point of being unusable after several years). Can anyone with experience comment on this one way or the other?



Sounds a bit strange as all the bits with water are made of brass, including it's boiler. What exactly is rusting?


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## WildBoar (Jan 6, 2017)

I have not heard that either...


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## Mute-on (Jan 6, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I've read a quite few reports of Silvias rusting really badley (to the point of being unusable after several years). Can anyone with experience comment on this one way or the other?



I didn't experience this, and neither have I heard of it. My Silvia was extremely robust, and the chassis very well powder coated with no bare spots. 

I suppose if you leave water in the drain tray for a long period, or let it overflow regularly, this could cause corrosion. Then again, that would be user error nor a fault of the machine. 

I don't see cause for alarm.

J


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## Nemo (Jan 7, 2017)

khashy said:


> Sounds a bit strange as all the bits with water are made of brass, including it's boiler. What exactly is rusting?



Apparently the frame.


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## Nemo (Jan 7, 2017)

Mute-on said:


> I didn't experience this, and neither have I heard of it. My Silvia was extremely robust, and the chassis very well powder coated with no bare spots.
> 
> I suppose if you leave water in the drain tray for a long period, or let it overflow regularly, this could cause corrosion. Then again, that would be user error nor a fault of the machine.
> 
> ...



Thanks J.

Useful feedback.


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## Mute-on (Jan 7, 2017)

Ok, I checked the threads and I think I read the post you are referring to. I did note that the replies were along the lines of my comment above. 

However, if you are concerned with spray from the OPV missing the rear lip of the drain tray (N.B. This even happens a bit in my Cimbali), you could easily fashion a deflector plate, or even slightly reposition the OPV. 

Alternatively, just pull out the tray and mop up any moisture after use. Easy 

Like I said, I don't see it as an issue that would have any impact on your enjoyment of the machine. After all, it's what's in the cup that counts


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## Tobes (Jan 7, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I've read a quite few reports of Silvias rusting really badley (to the point of being unusable after several years). Can anyone with experience comment on this one way or the other?




Not mine, for sure. I work it hard since 9 years and just had it professionally cleaned and refurbished . Needed a new pump but overall in very good shape and no rust whatsoever. As far as I am concerned its just a sturdy, reliable and durable espresso machine. If you are not regularly serving larger groups of people and dont mind to wait a couple of minutes before steaming creamlike milk foam for your cappuccino, its all that is needed.


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## Nemo (Jan 7, 2017)

Thanks for the feedback guys


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## khashy (Jan 7, 2017)

I think the rusting thing is a non issue if you take the most basic care of the machine.

I would just echo what was previously said about a PID addition post purchase.

The machine is perfectly capable without it, however you sink-shot rate will considerably decrease with a PID.


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## Evilsports (Jan 7, 2017)

I've been running a LaMarzocco machine with a Mazzer grinder for 2-3 years now and I couldn't be happier. It's an old pic, I've since replaced all the plastic panels and pieces on the GS3 with some custom wood pieces. I wasn't sure if I'd like the automation of the machine at first. Over time it's grown on me.

Typical routine now:

-Grab some new beans to play with
-Dial the grind in and set the auto dispense on the Mazzer
-Set the auto dispense on the GS3 (it measures by volume not time, which is nice)
-Whenever I need a shot it's just a matter of pushing two buttons. If somethings not right, I'll typically pick it up by the way the shot pours or by the time it takes to come out (it also has a shot timer just for reference).

I don't miss having to pay closer attention to the machine especially first thing in the morning. It takes a bit of the interaction out of the equation but it makes up for it in repeatability.


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## Evilsports (Jan 7, 2017)

I've found too, and y'all are likely more than aware of this, the quality of the water going in is paramount to machine longevity. I don't have the specific parameters at my fingertips but I know when I bought my new set up a few years back I went through an extensive water testing process. There were like 6-7 different tests that I did to find out the quality of the water, mineral content, hardness, PH, calcium, etc. I hit the jackpot and turns out the water that I get from my fridges filtering system is 100% dead on for all of the parameters.

I know some people end up buying treatment systems or 5 gallon jugs with small pumps to feed their machines. 

The last thing a person wants is to get 4-5 years into an expensive coffee setup only to have to start replacing boilers and other pieces due to premature wear.

Maintenance is something that shouldn't be overlooked either. I'm the first to admit that I'm not the best guy at staying on top of things, but even in the three years or so of this machine I've had to replace a few minor parts just due to my neglecting to follow a sufficient flushing and maintenance schedule. Once a guy pulls his machine apart a few times (imagine working on an import car but then remove ANY space to maneuver) you learn that it's a lot easier in the long run to just backflush it regularly and replace o-rings and seals as soon as they need it.


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## WildBoar (Jan 7, 2017)

Who did you get the wood side panels from? I may dress mine up at some point. I've seen some on espressoparts.com, but have not seen them in person. Actually, maybe BurlSource would be open to... :biggrin:


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## khashy (Jan 7, 2017)

For the record, I am not jealous of you people with GS3's. Not one bit. Nope, no sir, none whatsoever, nill, nada, nothing....

Okay, fine, I freaking wish I had one


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## Evilsports (Jan 7, 2017)

WildBoar said:


> Who did you get the wood side panels from? I may dress mine up at some point. I've seen some on espressoparts.com, but have not seen them in person. Actually, maybe BurlSource would be open to... :biggrin:



I ended up just getting the panels and accessories in Walnut from the LaMarzocco shop.

https://home.lamarzoccousa.com/product/walnut-side-panels/

I had inititally planned on having Jason Holtz make me a set, but opted for the Lamarzocco ones just because I'm in Canada and didn't want to take any chances with fitment. (Not saying I doubted Jason, just that I knew for a fact that LaMarzocco would fit for sure). If I were doing it again I'd probably go with Jason. His pieces were richer looking and they cost a bit less as well.

https://www.custommade.com/custom-wood-panels-for-la-marzocco-gs3-espresso-ma/by/jholtzfurniture/


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## Nemo (Jan 7, 2017)

Wow! The price on those GS3s makes me feel much better about my kitchen knife habbit!

Thanks


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## WildBoar (Jan 7, 2017)

His work looks very nice. Thanks.


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## DDPslice (Jan 8, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I want to canvass opinions about high quality home espresso machines. I currently have a 10 yr old Saeco Incanto fully automatic which is ok for a fully automatic machine but I wonder how long it has left. I'm thinking that a manual or a semi automatic macine might be the go next time, but I want to be able to make great espresso with it.
> 
> Thanks for your experience & opinons.



check out homebaristaforum.com and you should be able to find all the extra info you need. Manuals take a while to get adjusted/comfortable with but will give you more control as well as quicker feedback. You'll probably have to get a new tamper or at least a new sized head, obviously, you can forgo getting a bottemless portafilter by sawing the end of one with a pvc saw btw. Great espresso is made with great beans and an even greater grinder so hopefully you have those covered before you decide to spend 3grand. Though I would recommend the Linea Mini if you can, I mean why not. Really I wouldn't worry about the machine so much, spending like 1000 (manual) 1500(maybe E61, but semi-automatic with duel boiler should be do-able) should put you in the ballpark of something good but whatever machine you get will require getting used to. At least in that range you know it's not the machine. A word of caution the search for the god shot can lead to coffee addiction, also if you've never used a semi-automatic do some youtube searches for baristas showing you what to look for as you pull your shots and adjust accordingly, and manuals will be a b**** of a learning curve.


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## Nemo (Jan 8, 2017)

Thanks DDP.


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## s0real (Jan 8, 2017)

In my opinion, the best coffee machine with a great price to performance ratio is a Breville BES870. It is a manual and it gives you great crema. a great grinder is equally or not more important in my opinion than the machine. with great grinder and fresh coffee beans even a Bialetti Brikka can give you great espresso.


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## Nemo (Jan 8, 2017)

Thaks s0real. I have read some very good reviews of their performance. A few of the reviews (mainly from USA from memory) commented on poor reliability and after sales service. Nonetheless, given the orice point, it's tempting to take the chance.

A couple of our local coffee houses sell Expobar machines which I have read some quite good reviews on. Not cheap though. Any opinions?


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## s0real (Jan 9, 2017)

No problem Nemo, i am not sure about the performance of Expobar but if you want a non mainstream coffee machine, get an Italian made like Rincilio or Gaggia. However those machines take practice and tuning but definitely worth the money. My sister who is a coffee shop owner swears by them or if you have money to throw get a la marzocco mini.


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## Marek07 (Jan 9, 2017)

s0real said:


> In my opinion, the best coffee machine with a great price to performance ratio is a Breville BES870. It is a manual and it gives you great crema. a great grinder is equally or not more important in my opinion than the machine. with great grinder and fresh coffee beans even a Bialetti Brikka can give you great espresso.


:thumbsup:
Not that it's a brand that screams quality like a Rancilio or a Gaggia (had the latter previously) but bang-per-buck in the sub $1k category, it's hard to beat. A couple of friends have them as well - no complaints over three years. Super easy to use and that's a great thing in the morning. Service centre in Coburg.

_Edit:_ Should say it is important to use filtered water if possible and to de-scale once a week.


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## Nemo (Jan 9, 2017)

Marek07 said:


> :thumbsup:
> Not that it's a brand that screams quality like a Rancilio or a Gaggia (had the latter previously) but bang-per-buck in the sub $1k category, it's hard to beat. A couple of friends have them as well - no complaints over three years. Super easy to use and that's a great thing in the morning. Service centre in Coburg.
> 
> _Edit:_ Should say it is important to use filtered water if possible and to de-scale once a week.



Yeah, it's pretty high in the bang for your buck stakes.

Descale weekly? Wow. Melbourne water isn't that hard is it? My current machine only tells me to descale about once a year (although we are on rainwater much of the time).


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## Marek07 (Jan 9, 2017)

Nemo said:


> ... Descale weekly? Wow. Melbourne water isn't that hard is it? ...


Yep! Although Breville call it decalcifying. I mentioned water quality being critical earlier in the thread, just like all the other components - beans, roast, grind, dosing, tamping. We have a dual-filter providing drinking water plus I use a filter in the espresso's water tank. The machine makes >40 shots a week and I regard it as part of normal maintenance & cleaning - no harder than caring for a carbon knife.* ;-)*
Only takes around 20min, most of it unattended.


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## DDPslice (Jan 11, 2017)

YIKES! I don't want to poo on anyone's parade but I would not consider breville to be able to produce a quality espresso without being so proficient that you can compensate for all it's mediocrity. Sure it's good and if you don't buy beans you are roasting yourself or come from a roaster who varies the roast/bean variety then sure get a breville generic in color of beige. 

Expobar is not some unheard of name, so if you think that: it's equivalent of calling a Wustof at costco the same as a Misono. Both of those brands can be carried over to a Breville : Expobar comparison. 

Again please do not think I hate anyone or are attacking your preferences. But really the lack of input of quality is bothersome. Again go to http://www.home-barista.com/forums/ and get yourself situated ie. read the site and ask your questions there, they will nerd out on you and you may be getting a somewhat biased to a particular machine, but overall they have had experiences with different machines that can give a more complete input. 

Once again no offense to the people on the thread or the site but gee gosh golly the things I'm reading are making me cry.


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## WildBoar (Jan 11, 2017)

I dunno, I read a lot of recommendations for Silvias, Mazzer grinders, etc., as well as multiple recommendations for visiting home-barista.com. And also learned there are quite a few GS3s around on KKF.


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## Evilsports (Jan 11, 2017)

If I was going to recommend a solid machine that wasn't in the GS3 price range it would definitely be the Rocket R58. My father has ran one for the better part of the last decade and it hasn't missed a beat. It's a pretty machine with a more classic look and it performs just fine with dual boilers. I've used it often, whenever I visit and I do enjoy the feedback of running levers and knobs.

You surely get the point by now, but a quality grinder will do more for your cup than a machine. You need to spend on something that not only gives you the ability to dial a bean in, but also has tight enough tolerances to give you repeatability in the cup. 

I wouldn't hesitate to spend 50-75% on a grinder of the amount that I did on a espresso machine.


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## Nemo (Jan 11, 2017)

Evilsports said:


> You surely get the point by now, but a quality grinder will do more for your cup than a machine. You need to spend on something that not only gives you the ability to dial a bean in, but also has tight enough tolerances to give you repeatability in the cup.
> 
> I wouldn't hesitate to spend 50-75% on a grinder of the amount that I did on a espresso machine.



Yes, I am beginning to appreciate that bit.


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## Sleep (Jan 11, 2017)

The Breville 920 is a fantastic machine. Friends and family have bought them on my recommendation. In the cup it's just as good as our Vetrano 2B (not very popular in Oz but similar to R58 and Alex Duetto). I saw the Breville 920 at Harvey Norman and Good Guys in December for AUD$800 (minus Smart Grinder).That is a lot of performance per dollar!

The Smart Grinder is ok. I had one, sold it, and bought another for the in-laws. They're easy to use and don't make a lot of mess but not particularly impressive grind quality. Still pretty good for the money.

The Baratza Sette looks interesting and should be available in Oz soon.


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## Nemo (Jan 11, 2017)

Mmmm.... I dont know what to think now.

I hope I don't need to put any popcorn on


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## khashy (Jan 11, 2017)

Right, I'll chime in one last time and hopefully there is no need for any popcorn.

We have the breville line here in sale under the 'Heston Blumenthal - Sage' name. So a celebrity endorsment.

Now I have not tasted this machine in the cup, however I can tell you that at least in the UK, it is sold by mainstream outlets. I have seen them in the flesh and I was not a fan. The other coffee machines that have been spoken about are available through spciality outlets.

I swear by my Gaggia, but - and it's a massive but - it took me 1.5 years and quite a bit of mods to get it to a place that the taste in the cup blew my socks off. I am not sure you would want to wait and practice that long. 

I remember your original budget was very decent. If you can afford a Rocket R58 (as I mentioned previously and also mentioned in other posts), do not hesitate. It will be everything you need x 10 and you do not have to worry about selling it on whenever gou decide to. 

No need to reiterate the whole grinder thing. Again if you can afford it, get a Mazzer. Same story about functionality and resell. 

What's the secondary market like in Oz? You guys love your coffee so I imagine it would be pretty active.


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## Marek07 (Jan 11, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Mmmm.... I dont know what to think now.
> 
> I hope I don't need to put any popcorn on


Funny you should mention popcorn...

I was first attracted to home coffee roasting using a cheap popcorn maker when I read this post: http://coffeegeek.com/guides/popperroasting
I didn't do it myself though a friend did with good results despite some inherent problems. He set up his roasting in a carport due to the smoke generated and thought the quality of his coffee sky-rocketed. He had a humble espresso but his freshly brewed & ground coffee was pretty damn good IMO. The smoke factor kept me from trying it myself - no suitable outdoor area.


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## Sleep (Jan 11, 2017)

khashy said:


> Now I have not tasted this machine in the cup, however I can tell you that at least in the UK, it is sold by mainstream outlets. I have seen them in the flesh and I was not a fan. The other coffee machines that have been spoken about are available through spciality outlets.



Yeah the looks aren't for some people. But hey you can probably get a toaster to match! :biggrin:

Having an appliance brand name on the front is kinda off-putting. But in the cup they are brilliant. Performance and features rival some very expensive machines. When they were first released down here there was a lot of excitement and hype from the specialty retailers. They stocked them for a while but stopped because big appliance stores were able to sell for less than the specialty outlet's wholesale cost.

I roasted coffee for a few years at home. Never in a popper though. Used a behmor and a bread maker/heat gun. Worked really well but when we were packed up and moving I bought some beans from a decent roaster. Soooo much better! Been about two years and still haven't unpacked my roasting stuff.

Been meaning to try popcorn grits


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## DDPslice (Jan 14, 2017)

WildBoar said:


> I dunno, I read a lot of recommendations for Silvias, Mazzer grinders, etc., as well as multiple recommendations for visiting home-barista.com. And also learned there are quite a few GS3s around on KKF.




well yes, but their isn't a whole lot of variety here, not to say the machines recommended aren't good but the OP was asking about switching to a semi or manual. Now there is a head scratcher. As far as I read and yes I have been drinking, but so far nobody has mentioned manuals, which has the hardest learning curve. +You will be dumping LOTS of beans, and backflushing and lots and lots of patients but getting a feel of the pull is like sex. (Bigger the..eehmhem, i mean better over time) And the shots will taste amaaazing but, it comes with practice and pulling on a manual at 6am is annoying, and time consuming unless you're good.

So I would say if you get a manual hold on to your automatic. Automatics are the lazy man espresso. You push button, it does thing. IF you want a manual-like espresso taste that can pull like you've taken the time to: time out and cross examine the weight and tds. Then get the latest Mazz and fork over 16k, sure, whynot? Semi auto's, you wait till it's at pressure (if it has a gauge) and temp (if it has a thermostat..is it pid?..do you like blue lights? Does it have a water reservoir, are you going to connect it to a mainline? do you need duel boilers? Do you? Do you have access to drain into a sink? Can you be loud? Frothing milk is loud.) 

Automatics are the most expensive for the least amount of quality, until you get into the "built into the kitchen" range. And even still, it's meh (*insert Mazz exclusion clause). Semi automatics require maintenance but if you subscribe to seattlecoffeegear.com Gale and team sends you emails reminding you of proper maintenance times, 4 times a year. Never really an issue of longevity with any of the machines as long as you take care of them (and know fully how to do that). And if your interested in manuals...well your not, if you were you wouldn't ask. It's more of a mindset then a question. Nobody sane wakes up at 530 instead of 6 to pull espresso. NObody SANE. But if you somehow became interested in actually pulling a shot worth drinking then learn a manual and you'll never question what I'm saying. 

To me the original question is like the question people ask what knife should I get. There are a whole list of questions to be asked. And really like knives it's about what your budget vs time. As a hobby getting better espresso shots involves more then just getting a good machine. And yea mazzer's are great but that Mahlkonig I saw in the beginning is what i'd go for. But really my girl is the HG One, she so purrrty. But back to the point, I'd say get a semi automatic, a number o'places sell great machines, you best time to buy was well..1-2 months ago but you may still find some good deals and or at least fair prices at seattlecoffeegear.com or wholelattelove.com but if the Expobar is good for you support your area and pick it up at the coffee shop near you and be apart of your local coffee community. 








holy cow now we're talking about roasters, who's driving this train??:bliss:


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## WildBoar (Jan 14, 2017)

I don't know, but somehow we are not understanding what each is saying. Silvias are inexpensive, and are not automatics. Nor are the double boiler. As far as grinders go, I would (and did) look for a used super Jolly or variant. Swap in a new set of burrs (if needed) and your total grinder outlay will be only $400.

Inexpensive levers like La Pavonis are another great way or starting. There are loads of them out there used, and you can often land one in decent shape for under $150. (and under $250 if you want the larger size)


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## DDPslice (Jan 14, 2017)

I think you got confused in my rambling, which i am sorry. Maybe allocating the reference to Mazz = La Marzerocco (sorry i meant to type "Marz", referencing their fully automatic machine), maybe also referencing seattlecoffeegear that sells a range of machines, but I'm not trying to advocate for a machine but bring points about what should be looked in each machine is more then price. But rather what you want out of it. Apologies for the confusion here are some bullet points:

you aren't going to pull a great shot out of a Silvia.

skip over the beginner machines and save yourself some time in the long run.

If you can find a LP for 150 you better know the place to get parts from because you are going to need to replace almost everything. (orphanespresso, man i just think i go the meaning of that name, lol) 

Automatic's are easy to use. But are not good.

Semi-automatics rely more on the quality and consistency of your grinder.

Manual machines are a lot of effort. But are best. 

It takes tools, time and experience to make good espresso.


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## Krassi (Jan 14, 2017)

Hiho!°

After searching for a good single boiler machine for my office i found the Lelit PL 41 PLUS
I like it a lot together with a inexpensive graef grinder and some good fresh roasted special Espresso blend from my neighbour that roasts coffee as a hobby.

The Lelit is really a nice machine for a starter. Best regards, Daniel!


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## Nemo (Jan 14, 2017)

This seems to be another rabbit hole opening up before me


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## malexthekid (Jan 14, 2017)

I think take the things said with a grain of salt and do your own research...

In my experience coffee geeks make us seem sane..

And maybe try do local research... afterall Australia does make the best coffee ;-)

For what its worth. I have heard good things about Silvia machines (though maybe the older ones).


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## khashy (Jan 14, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> afterall Australia does make the best coffee...



Categorically disagree &#128540;

I see your Australia and I raise you London


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## Marek07 (Jan 14, 2017)

khashy said:


> Categorically disagree &#128540;
> 
> I see your Australia and I raise you London


Possibly. Travelling to London soon so I'll see for myself. Australians *think* they make good coffee but whatever we can do is all due to Italians bringing their skills here and teaching us how to roast and make a decent espresso. Till then we were largely a nation of tea drinkers. There are Australian baristas doing very well in England and elsewhere. See: http://www.afr.com/brand/afr-magazine/five-great-australian-coffee-houses-in-london-20150602-ghercg


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## khashy (Jan 14, 2017)

Marek07 said:


> Possibly. Travelling to London soon so I'll see for myself. Australians *think* they make good coffee but whatever we can do is all due to Italians bringing their skills here and teaching us how to roast and make a decent espresso. Till then we were largely a nation of tea drinkers. There are Australian baristas doing very well in England and elsewhere. See: http://www.afr.com/brand/afr-magazine/five-great-australian-coffee-houses-in-london-20150602-ghercg



It's a subscriber only article I'm afraid.

I do agree about the Southern Hemisphere baristas btw. My fav barista is a dude from the land of the kiwi. Best latte art I have seen


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## Marek07 (Jan 14, 2017)

:scratchhead:
Hmmm... It's not subscriber content but you may be geoblocked. Happy to send it as a PDF or MHT if interested.


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## khashy (Jan 14, 2017)

Thanks Marek


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## Evilsports (Jan 14, 2017)

Some of the best beans I've tasted, I ordered from a roaster in London (Square Mile Roasters)!

(The absolute best beans I've tasted were a Geisha variety ordered from Verve Roasters in California).


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## Evilsports (Jan 14, 2017)

Marek07 said:


> Possibly. Travelling to London soon so I'll see for myself. Australians *think* they make good coffee but whatever we can do is all due to Italians bringing their skills here and teaching us how to roast and make a decent espresso. Till then we were largely a nation of tea drinkers. There are Australian baristas doing very well in England and elsewhere. See: http://www.afr.com/brand/afr-magazine/five-great-australian-coffee-houses-in-london-20150602-ghercg



Do yourself a favor and check out Square Mile Roasters if you're in London.


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## Marek07 (Jan 14, 2017)

Evilsports said:


> Do yourself a favor and check out Square Mile Roasters if you're in London.


Most definitely will. One of the coffee shops in the article I referenced is an Aussie/Kiwi venture called Kaffeine in Titchfield Street. Apparently they get their beans from Square Mile Roasters. Sounds good!


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## Lars (Jan 15, 2017)

+1 for Square Mile - maybe visit Prufrock in London..

Lars


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