# Butcher Knife Set - KKF Member Project



## Dave Martell

So after getting a good 12 page response in the help to build a forum knife thread we've come to the conclusion that we're going to try something different - to design and make a western butcher's knife set. 

Please throw down your ideas on what you'd like to see. 

Dave


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## Marko Tsourkan

Back to a drawing board.  Got to love the forum.


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## Vertigo

Subbed to the thread. Looking forward to this!


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## Pensacola Tiger

Here are two patterns taken from Forshcner/Victorinox - a boning, and a cimeter. Make them from 01 and put some nice handles on, and they might be what we're looking for?


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## Dave Martell

How important, or not, are the finger guard part of the handles? Nearly all old patterns were made with no guards built into the handles like the guarded versions shown in the two photos above. Are they necessary?


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## UglyJoe

Dave I think you should post those images of the catalogues of old cleavers again here. Doing something traditional that you can't get anymore cept secondhand would be pretty cool.


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## sudsy9977

You know what i want, Can't find an old pic of it though Dave An old french patterned peasant knife....like the crappy Le valley one. Coolest boning knife ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Dave Martell

sudsy9977 said:


> You know what i want, Can't find an old pic of it though Dave An old french patterned peasant knife....like the crappy Le valley one. Coolest boning knife ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




LOL, I was just waiting for you to come along with this. It's actually quite do-able.


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## Dave Martell

UglyJoe said:


> Dave I think you should post those images of the catalogues of old cleavers again here. Doing something traditional that you can't get anymore cept secondhand would be pretty cool.




Here's the pictures again.


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## Dave Martell

sudsy9977 said:


> You know what i want, Can't find an old pic of it though Dave An old french patterned peasant knife....like the crappy Le valley one. Coolest boning knife ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jim

Dave Martell said:


> How important, or not, are the finger guard part of the handles? Nearly all old patterns were made with no guards built into the handles like the guarded versions shown in the two photos above. Are they necessary?


 
Good question- My impression ( as a amateur with no formal training) is that they did not have highly structured handles so they could be used "back-wards" or reversed grip. Working on a hanging carcass, reversing the grip was sometimes necessary to make some of the cuts. I know I have used my knives this way when dressing and butchering deer and hog.


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## Dave Martell

Here's another vintage catalog page.


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## ThEoRy

Didn't realize the discussion had moved to this thread so I'll just quot what I last said over there...


Hmm maybe something like a honesuke and a petty/boning knife combined. Or like a kiritsuke tip boning knife?


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## JohnnyChance

I prefer a straight or almost straight spine on a boning knife. And I think it should be a bit longer than most western boning knives, maybe 7.5" or so. Carbon is fine by me.

I think a formed handle with some sort of finger guard is necessary. I know some of the old school butchers knives have basic block handles so you can grip it backwards and whatnot, but I would rather have the knife be really comfortable the way I hold it 99% of the time. Even with a formed handle you can flip it around if you need.

What I hate about westerns is when the heel of the blade curves outwards, always annoying to sharpen.






What I thought might be cool and unique way to deal with a finger guard, is a cutout like on some camp/field knives. Like this one Pierre made:






The Scimitar should have a good sized handle with a traditional finger guard.

Also mentioned in the original thread was to maybe include a leather knife roll for the set. Good for home users to store the knives in a drawer, good for pros to add to their kit/bag.






Just an example. Another leatherworker's examples here:
http://http://www.leather-worker.com/Chef-Knife-Roll.html

I also like theory's idea of a kiritsuke tipped boning knife. Profile could be interesting and useful.


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## chuck239

Dave,

I think a mix between a Honesuki and that knife Pierre made would be an awesome knife for butchering. I break down lots of tenderloins and french bone in rib eyes and I currently use a honesuki or an old school dexter that I have. But I feel like a mix of the honesuki and knife design Pierre made would make for a very useful butchering knife. I will say, I would prefer one of the knives to be very short (speaking about height). I like the old school looking knives but feel the profile is difficult for breaking down things like tenderloins (but then again, if there is that scimitar....)

-Chuck


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## UnConundrum

Johnny, you're link is bad for the other example.


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## mr drinky

How about a meat hook with a Dave handle on it? 

With that said, butchery classes are all the rage these days, and that got me thinking. It might be interesting to get feed back from actual butchers and especially places like Fleisher's in NY that offer classes. Who knows, you might find some aspiring butchers looking for some new kit. 

k.


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## Dave Martell

You guys are getting me thinking here. 


Chuck, I'm having a hard time visualizing that combo and how it would be made into one knife. Do you have anyway to draw this up?


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## JohnnyChance

UnConundrum said:


> Johnny, you're link is bad for the other example.


 
http://www.leather-worker.com/Chef-Knife-Roll.html

this one should work


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## monty

Dave Martell said:


> How important, or not, are the finger guard part of the handles? Nearly all old patterns were made with no guards built into the handles like the guarded versions shown in the two photos above. Are they necessary?


 
There were a couple of knives on those vintage charts with some sort of finger grooves, for lack of a better term. Maybe not "guards" but something that seemed to suggest ergonomics. I also notice that those knives were much more expensive than the knives with relatively straight handles. Perhaps the reason they didn't produce as many ergonomic grips had to do with cost rather than utility? Even if it didn't cost more to produce them - though I suspect a specialty jig was needed thus slowing production a bit - ergonomic knives certainly seem to be part of the luxury of the more expensive knives. Personally, I like the finger guard.


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## jaybett

I'm not sure if the hankotsu gets overlooked or it doesn't meet the needs of a pro kitchen. The hankotsu has a number of features that make it a good boning knife. The front edge of the knife, does all the cutting, the middle is for scraping or for pressing down against the meat, while pulling on a bone, and the end is ground flat for safety.

The knife is designed to provide a strong base, to the front of the knife, with a thick spine at the bolster which tapers down to a thin tip. The spine comes down at a angle to the tip, not as severe, as a kiritsuke. This maintains the profile of the edge, which gently rounds up to the tip. 

The tip is agile, it can easily trace around most bones. It really shines, with pork shoulders that are cut up into roasts, from the shank end, dealing with those odd sized shoulder blade bones. 

No matter how cautious one is, eventually the hand is going to slip, especially when the handle is slick. Having the edge ground flat, by the bolster is a good safety feature. A finger would have to go three inches or so, before it gets to the edge. 

The advantages of a hankotsu are the semi reverse tanto tip, which gives the tip a fine point and the edge being ground flat at the bolster. The middle part of the knife, which is v shaped, but has no edge works well as a scraper. I wonder how well it would work at removing silver skin?

At the very least, I hope this gives people some food for thought in designing the new forum boning knife. 

Jay


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## monty

jaybett said:


> I'm not sure if the hankotsu gets overlooked or it doesn't meet the needs of a pro kitchen. The hankotsu has a number of features that make it a good boning knife. The front edge of the knife, does all the cutting, the middle is for scraping or for pressing down against the meat, while pulling on a bone, and the end is ground flat for safety.
> 
> No matter how cautious one is, eventually the hand is going to slip, especially when the handle is slick. Having the edge ground flat, by the bolster is a good safety feature. A finger would have to go three inches or so, before it gets to the edge.


 
Interesting, the Ergo Chef boning knife has the same feature


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## ThEoRy

I love my hankotsu for lamb shanks/racks, short ribs, boning out strip steaks. Problem is, I already have one!  I'd like to take this time reiterate my interest in a honesuke hybrid or kiritsuke tipped boning knife with no flex and no curve at the top or bottom for easy sharpening.  Now do we go single bevel with this bad boy or what? Pros, cons?


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## nikoz

Dave Martell said:


> How important, or not, are the finger guard part of the handles? Nearly all old patterns were made with no guards built into the handles like the guarded versions shown in the two photos above. Are they necessary?



Absolutely! If you stabbed someone, if the guards weren't there, your hand would more likely slide over the blade cutting you, leaving DNA behind for the CSIs. Seriously tho, my wife likes em so yeah we want em.


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## cnochef

Dave Martell said:


>


 
I too have one of these, and think everyone should consider it for their kit. I use it as a boning knife, small prep knife and picnic knife.

I think a modern version of it, with a longer blade, would be excellent.


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## cnochef

ThEoRy said:


> I love my hankotsu for lamb shanks/racks, short ribs, boning out strip steaks. Problem is, I already have one!  I'd like to take this time reiterate my interest in a honesuke hybrid or kiritsuke tipped boning knife with no flex and no curve at the top or bottom for easy sharpening.  Now do we go single bevel with this bad boy or what? Pros, cons?


 
I think Chef Niloc's Heiji stainless honesuki might be very similar to what you envision, look under the thread "Chef Niloc's Tool Box" in The Kitchen Knife, The Media Room. But, most of us would want a western handle of course.


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## dough

well i cant blow up the pictures bc it says im not allowed but i like a finger guard as you call it but no it is certainly not needed.
also im less into the weird designs and like the first boning knife suggested by pens tiger.
i also have been taught by chefs that use a cimeter so in turn id like to see those made out of nicer steel however i dont know many that use that and while i enjoy using a cimeter its hardly my go to butcher knife... i like it way better for things other then fish and sadly way less then my chef knives but i have never tried one better then a crappy soft steel.
eitherway some input im sure whatever you make will be interesting and be wicked sharp.


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## cnochef

My $0.02:

+1 I like the old Forschner patterns, like those Pensacola Tiger posted. A 12" scimitar and 7" boning knife, modernized with better handles and steel would be perfect.

+1 on either thumb indentations on the tops of the handles OR the Pierre Rodrigue-style notch in the blade to improve grip.

+1 on a custom roll from www.leather-worker.com. He can also stamp the roll with the KKF and/or name of buyer.

-1 on finger guards, not aesthetically pleasing at all.

Cheers,
Lyle


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## dough

how about lamb splitters

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/814418/

man that thing is awesome. i can only imagine how long it took to restore.


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## Dave Martell

Thanks for all the input guys, I'm listening to every little thing you say. 


dough, I love lambsplitters but I don't know about making them though. :laugh:


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## l r harner

Dave Martell said:


> Thanks for all the input guys, I'm listening to every little thing you say.
> 
> 
> dough, I love lambsplitters but I don't know about making them though. :laugh:


 
what if you could get Sam to hammer them close so you jsut finish grind handle


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## Dave Martell

Hammering them out is the only way I think they could (maybe) be done cost effectively.


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## Smarcus

A Butchers set sounds outstanding. If you are going to include a leather case you should speak with Christian at Xian Leather: http://www.xianleather.com/ He can do anything in leather and his work is the best I've ever seen. He may be cost prohibitive but it's worth a shot. Below is a motorcycle seat he made for me:

http://www.xianleather.com/leather/Gallery/3.html

Sean


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## Dave Martell

Looks like Christian has some skills, very nice stuff.


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## sudsy9977

the indian larry seat is tooooo cooool....ryan


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## Smarcus

Dave Martell said:


> Looks like Christian has some skills, very nice stuff.


 
A true craftsman, like you and others here.


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## Dave Martell

OK, I'm back at this again after seeing in another thread (in The Kitchen Knife forum) the mention of what a couple of people are interested in getting for a butcher's knife.

Of the two knives shown here which are you most interested in for the larger knife?


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## Dave Martell




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## cnochef

Dave Martell said:


>


 
The one on the right for sure, I've never been a fan of the bull nose shape.

Maybe add a little more choil for safety sake?


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## cnochef

Here is a picture of a garasuki with kiritsuke tip, I think I remember someone mentioning a preference for this knife as the Forum boner-ha ha. I really like the tip because the blade isn't too narrow and that makes it possibly functional as a petty. 

http://www.**************.com/tcblwa165mm.html

What do you all think of it, but maybe with a western handle instead?

My apologies, Dave, I know the image is from the competition but it's only to throw ideas around.


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## so_sleepy

+1 for the scimitar. it seems like a more versatile shape. How long would you make it?


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## Dave Martell

cnochef said:


> http://www.**************.com/tcblwa165mm.html
> 
> My apologies, Dave, I know the image is from the competition but it's only to throw ideas around.




This isn't a problem - no censoring needed here.


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## Dave Martell

so_sleepy said:


> +1 for the scimitar. it seems like a more versatile shape. How long would you make it?




The length could be debated.


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## mainaman

I like this 14.5 " cutting edge monster


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## Dave Martell

That is nice. Is that from Ralph?


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## mainaman

Dave Martell said:


> That is nice. Is that from Ralph?


 
I do not know I got one from e-bay recently and is huge.

Also is there a plan for a clever to the set?


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## cnochef

Dave Martell said:


> The length could be debated.



Don't forget, girth is equally important!:thumbsup:


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## kalaeb

I have to vote for the first one, I don't even know what it is called but I have always found them useful. To be honest, I have never used a scimitar and I would buy either one. Just have a tendancy to lean towards the first as a personal preference.


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## Dave Martell

mainaman said:


> I do not know I got one from e-bay recently and is huge.
> 
> Also is there a plan for a clever to the set?




Hell no on the cleaver! I don't even want to think cleaver. :bashhead:


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## UglyJoe

HAHAHAHAH. Dave, they are going to force you to make a cleaver at some point, you know it...


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## SpikeC

"My apologies, Dave, I know the image is from the competition but it's only to throw ideas around."
FWTW, if you click on "enlarge image", the copy image, you can bypass the rest of the site!


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## WildBoar

Dave -- I would say it depends on which damacus pattern you will be making them from oke1:


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## Dave Martell

WildBoar said:


> Dave -- I would say it depends on which damacus pattern you will be making them from oke1:



Oh now we're getting crazy.....but hey....why not get crazy sometimes? :EDance2:


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## JohnnyChance

Another vote for scimitar on the right.


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## 99Limited

I vote for the bull nose knife on the left.

Do you think this project will get knocked out before the end of summer?


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## Dave Martell

I don't know but it's possible.


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## Dave Martell

I need to get cracking on this. It'd be nice to get a design pinned down. :EDance2:


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## JohnnyChance

Yup. Especially when it might take a few versions from the waterjet company to get it dialed in.


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## Dave Martell

Yeah exactly.


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## Noodle Soup

My vote would be for a straight 6-inch flex narrow boning, curved stiff narrow 6-inch boning, and a 12-inch cimeter. You can't have too many boning knives when you are breaking whole animals down so adding a wide 6-inch stiff boning to that would also be nice.


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## Dave Martell

What do you think of something like this, maybe slightly shorter?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m0%2BaiByINoXb3UO3UL2mCMQiFaE%3D#ht_720wt_924


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## JohnnyChance

thats not bad, the thin tip would let you clean silver skin and other small work.


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## Noodle Soup

That knife looks like it has been sharpened down a bit but I have been using the exact same model Dexter for maybe 25-30 years for beef, deer and elk butchering. It has worked find for me. Given large animal processing is something I only do a very few times a year, there hasn't been much reason to look for anything fancier.


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## kalaeb

Dave Martell said:


> What do you think of something like this, maybe slightly shorter?
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...m0%2BaiByINoXb3UO3UL2mCMQiFaE%3D#ht_720wt_924


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## mattrud

Dave, I want an obscenely massive scimitar!!!!


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## Dave Martell

mattrud said:


> Dave, I want an obscenely massive scimitar!!!!




I knew that there would be someone asking for a sword.


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## sudsy9977

i have an obscenly massive scimitar and yet want another one...ryan


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## Dave Martell

sudsy9977 said:


> i have an obscenly massive scimitar and yet want another one...ryan




Well there's two of you now. :lol2:


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## Jim

We have already spoke about this Dave, but I thought I would throw my thoughts out -
Is the goal here to create a set of knives to really disassemble a carcass? Or are we creating a homage to this style of cutlery that has a practical use for the average (whatever that is) member? 

If the latter, I really want a gently curving scimitar at no more than 8 inches of cutting length, mostly for trimming my briskets and clods, breaking down pork shoulders ect.. I will not be working from a rail on a hanging carcasses with this knife.

If it's the former, then thats all good also, I would just prefer a knife I actually have a use for.


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## kalaeb

So in all seriousness, this is something that will materialize, right? And if this is serious...what is an approximate time frame? 1 year? I know it has only been talked about for a little over a month, and Dave's plate is already heaping, but I think this is a really neat idea. Not that I don't like new gyuto's, but I already have too many of them. Just trying to get an idea of when to start saving the green.:moonwalk:


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## Dave Martell

I wasn't sure at first but I'm really starting to think that this is do-able. I'm sure it's not a huge market but why not do something different, could be fun?


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## JohnnyChance

Jim said:


> We have already spoke about this Dave, but I thought I would throw my thoughts out -
> Is the goal here to create a set of knives to really disassemble a carcass? Or are we creating a homage to this style of cutlery that has a practical use for the average (whatever that is) member?
> 
> If the latter, I really want a gently curving scimitar at no more than 8 inches of cutting length, mostly for trimming my briskets and clods, breaking down pork shoulders ect.. I will not be working from a rail on a hanging carcasses with this knife.
> 
> If it's the former, then thats all good also, I would just prefer a knife I actually have a use for.


 
I dont think the goal was ever to create a set to break down a full steer. Frankly, I am not sure what that requires. If these work for that, then great. I think the goal was to make some knives that are traditionally western and hard to find manufactured with quality steel. At least for pro's, having a western boning knife and scimitar not made out of soft german steel would be great. I deal for me would be something like a ~7" boning knife, 10-12" scimitar.


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## Chef Niloc

Dave is this going down or what? I need some Dave steel for the box


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## Dave Martell

All I need to do is to get some drawings and then see what you guys think and then it can happen just like that.


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## Dave Martell

OK here's what I'm narrowing it down to based on what's been expressed here as well as what I think is feasible to do to start off with....


1. Small butcher knife (clip point) - 5"-7" blade

2. Large butcher knife (clip point) - 12" blade

3. Small Scimitar - 5"-7" blade

4. Long Scimitar - 12"-14" blade

5. Western boning knife 5"-7" blade


I'm thinking of picking 2 to 3 of these choices for the first round. Carbon steel of course.


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## JohnnyChance

You have two #3's.

Renumbering them, I vote #5 (7"), and either a #2 or #4 (12")


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## Jim

At least #3 perhaps a #1 also.


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## mattrud

yea dave you can put me down for a number 4, hahahaha I can see the animals and primals weeping at the sight


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## WildBoar

I'm in for a #4 as well. Want to play with cutting my own NY strips, etc. at some point down the road.


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## cnochef

Dave, I'm most interested in a #4 and #5 with a matching rustic leather roll from www.leather-worker.com, if possible.

Then, I can pretend I'm Bill the Butcher.


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## 99Limited

I want a #2, #1 is too short for me. If #2 doesn't happen I'd go with a #4 as a second choice. To me the #2 just seems to be an All-American kind of butcher's knife. Then dress it up with a nice ironwood or cobo handle.


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## JohnnyChance

Ironwood is usually pricey, but you can get cocobolo at some good prices.

Would octagonal wa handles be weird on these?


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## sashae

I'd probably be into #3/#5.


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## kalaeb

:thebbq: Can't wait.


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## Dave Martell

Just to let you all know that I'm doing this as soon as I get started on the gyutos and sujihikis. I'm not sure if I will make a boatload of these types of knives but I will try to make what is requested. Thanks for the input guys, it's extremely valuable. :thumbsup:


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## Chef Niloc

cnochef said:


> Dave, I'm most interested in a #4 and #5 with a matching rustic leather roll from www.leather-worker.com, if possible.
> 
> Then, I can pretend I'm Bill the Butcher.



I can do better then that, this ones a year old, my skills are even better now.


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## cnochef

Chef Niloc said:


> I can do better then that, this ones a year old, my skills are even better now.


 
I love it!!!

BTW, I just scored my first Beatty cleaver (a #1) off EBay last week for a very reasonable $30.


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## rsalumbides

There's also a straight butcher knife:

[video=youtube;R0Xb0Uv386k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Xb0Uv386k[/video]

at 12:12 dario picks it up.

Vintage Italian one on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360365670386&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


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## ecchef

rsalumbides said:


> There's also a straight butcher knife:


 
Which looks exactly like a French butcher knife, or a Swiss butcher knife, or...

There was really nothing that Dario did with _that_ knife that you couldn't do with a gyuto, or sujihiki, or even a machete. 

I don't know if there are too many people that still break 158 primals, especially at home.


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## MadMel

ecchef said:


> I don't know if there are too many people that still break 158 primals, especially at home.


 
LOL. I seriously doubt so. We don't even do it in restaurants...


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## rsalumbides

ecchef said:


> Which looks exactly like a French butcher knife, or a Swiss butcher knife, or...
> 
> There was really nothing that Dario did with _that_ knife that you couldn't do with a gyuto, or sujihiki, or even a machete.
> 
> I don't know if there are too many people that still break 158 primals, especially at home.


 
I agree, just saying there's another besides the scimitar and clip point...


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## Noodle Soup

When I was in the business of selling butcher and meat packing cutlery, the catalogs referred to that pattern as a "European Butcher Knife" so any of those countries would fit. I think what most Americans call a butcher knife originated in England.


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## kalaeb

Bump, just saying now that Dave is rolling along with the gyutos, by my count he only has 23 left to make, maybe it is time to bring this back into the light. 

Too soon?


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## Dave Martell

A little soon but hey we can always talk. Actually Jim mentioned this to me last week so it's been brought back into the light already. I'm 100% down with doing some of these knives but I may first do one or two here and there to get a feel for what works before going all waterjet on the project.


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