# Down the Rabbit Hole (Once Upon a Time in JNATland)



## F-Flash (Jul 25, 2016)

So, I`m on the cliff. Rabbit hole is straight ahead of me. I want to take a look. But I`m little afraid, that I will loose myself in there. Is there easy way down there? Just to take a little look and then turn back. So you know what it feels like, or are you just always gonna want for more and more...(Exactly what happened with Japanese knifes...)



So I want to buy my first JNAT, want to use it as finisher for my double bevel knives. 90% of them being gyutos. (W2, B2, AS, R2, O1 and some SS steel) 

ATM I have following synthetic stones.

-atoma 140
-Naniwa pros (chosera) 400, 1k, 3k
-JNS 6k

I`m quite happy with my stones, haven`t felt the need to get anything else. But still.... I want to try JNAT. Im thinking of getting one of Aiiwatani koppas from Maksim, Lv 3 or 3,5. 

What do you guys think? Is it good stone to start your new life (JNAT life that being) from?
What would be the next step after the first stone? (If I ever decide to take that next step(Yea, Right!))

Is there any other budget friendly options out there? I live in Finland, being part of EU, I prefer buying from here or use vendors that are easy to deal with (shipping, taxes, customs etc.) 

James from K&S, promised to take a look at his stash after he comes back from holiday. I also send message to Maksim, asking what he thinks, waiting for his response.


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## zoze (Jul 25, 2016)

I'm just in the same boat. Ordered an aiiwatani from Maxim yesterday and will have an okudo suita koppa, soon.


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## Iggy (Jul 25, 2016)

Honestly...

I'd have a look at a Ohira Suita lvl 3,5-4/5. Maybe (as first stone maybe price is an issue) a smaller one. If you're not in the topic for a while it's quite difficult to find the right stone for you. So I guess the best way would be to contact some vendors, who can give you decent advise (e.g. Watanabe or Takeshi from Aframes)... they often have good "low-middle-Budget" stones in their lineup. 

Good luck to get back out the rabbit hole! :disdain:


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## F-Flash (Jul 25, 2016)

I did Send messages to maksim, aframes and watanabe. Interesting to see the recommendations. 
Anyone here have some other recommendations? Stones or vendors?


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## Krassi (Jul 25, 2016)

The Aiiwatanis from maxim are really good and awesome for starting with a serious jnat addiction! 

i had one 3,5 level (sold it because of suita bricks) and it has an awesome feedback, is very fine, and fast too..
very good for kitchen knives.

thats a good finishing stone.

well the best onee in my opinion are aka renge packed suitas.. especially ohiras.

watanabe has some very good ones too.. he allways drives to the mine owner, has knifes in his bag and tests tons of stones for hours
i got a 180x65x20 or so ohira with renge that i actually dondt need any more.. well its a very good stone .. ohiras are super fast and give a nice biting edge very easy.
-watanabes stones are really good and i thrust him..

-i havent tried anything from aframes yet.. he also got great stuff...

-maxim has awesome stones too, but they are much to expensive for me and i was lucky 4 times finding big bricks for super cheap.

its important that you dondt get to hard stones.. its no fun if you have a 4,5 or 8/10 stone thats not fast, and sucks.. well those are awesome for kamisori often.

its sad that watanabes super discount prizes are no more.. i got 2 ohiras cheap because they were watanabe specials
(i still check his site nearly every second day ) i want one of his synthetic A1000 with 400-2000)

regarding the price its up to you if you are happy with a 180x65mm stone.. the thickness doesnt really matter. i guess 10mm on an ohira wondt go down in 10-20 years.
the lines in the stones are mostly not scratching.. thats why you need a trusthworthy seller that tested the stone and doesnt sell you construction dirt.

well still with an aiiwatani you cant go wrong and they are mostly cheap from maxim.
well he has awesome ohiras, but they are around 350-500 eurobucks up to 1k..

Since iam from Eu too iam in the same boot as you guys! 

Ahhh i forgot one!
Japanmessershop.de 
mr horie has extremly good stones too and mostly cheaper than the rest. He has more stones in his vault than he has put on for sale in his shop
just ask him.. ok and maybe more than once since he was some time ago pretty busy with his normal job and often missed to answer.
He should have no flashy ohiras with renge but other stuff too.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 25, 2016)

F-Flash said:


> So, I`m on the cliff. Rabbit hole is straight ahead of me. I want to take a look. But I`m little afraid, that I will loose myself in there. Is there easy way down there? Just to take a little look and then turn back. So you know what it feels like, or are you just always gonna want for more and more...(Exactly what happened with Japanese knifes...)



Add me to the list


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## Krassi (Jul 26, 2016)

well theres also the "japanese roulette option" with japanese auctions.. but you should never take a look at those auctions.. you get shocked about the giant amount of insanly good stones are for sale.. well the risk can also be insane, because you often dondt even know what you are buying )
Still you can get some nice maruka nakayamas pretty cheap or other stuff from a retired barber or carpenter.
I just cant advice anybody without a little knowledge to try his look. 

some stones are so easy to identify like glowing unicorns in the darkness (maruyamas, ohira shiro suitas with renge, okudos and other stuff)
after half a year of insane every evening reading about stones and buying around 8 jnats i finally found my dreamstone on such a auction and knew directly that its godlike (actually the last one was the one i really wanted) )

well but it is advisable to buy from a thrusted seller!

i allready sold my aiiwatani and will get rid of my smaller ones sooner or later.. but it is really a big portion of luck involved to get a brick size very good stone for a super price that is perfect for kitchenknifes and not to hard..
i think even katos and shigs are much easier to get  every stone is unique and there is no second one thats exactly like the one..

the real awesome stones are the ones that combine contradictional features like relatively soft but very fine grit and also very fast but smooth and silky with feedback like a 1-2k stone.


As mentionend to get hooked opn jnats, get an aiiwatani or a nice suita thats not to expensive )


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## KimBronnum (Jul 26, 2016)

There is no turning back but it is great down here in the rabbit hole  It is a whole different sharpening experience. 
I have many different finishers and my Aiiwataniis are among my most loved (and by far my less expensive). 
Kim


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## YG420 (Jul 26, 2016)

So from japan tool also has a nice collection and will lead you in the right direction


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## F-Flash (Jul 26, 2016)

Shinichi recommended uchigumori. 
And Takeshi recommended Ohira suitas, wakasa and mizukiharas.

How do you guys like uchigumori, wakasa and mizukiharas for double bevel knives? 

Ohira suitas sounds like favorite for many guys around here.


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## YG420 (Jul 26, 2016)

My understanding is uchigumori is a bit coarser but still considered a finisher but its used more for aesthetics. Ive never dealt with wakasas or mizus but Id recommend a nice ohria suita.


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## pkjames (Jul 26, 2016)

Those size 24 ohria suita are sooo rare these days. Renge suita are almost extinct


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## Iggy (Jul 26, 2016)

Hi,



F-Flash said:


> Shinichi recommended uchigumori.
> And Takeshi recommended Ohira suitas, wakasa and mizukiharas.
> 
> How do you guys like uchigumori, wakasa and mizukiharas for double bevel knives?
> ...



don't have any experience with them but heard good things about the mizukiharas. 
Uchigomori as far as I know are more sort of the finish stones than for just sharpening. At least I was told bei Takeshi a while ago. Good stone to make a great finish but not really fast with removing metal to get a sharp edge fast due to the relativly soft particles.

I'd still go with the Ohira Suita (my favourite Jnat for general finish for Gyutos and such)

Hideriyama maybe an alternative if you like a little more softer muddier stones. But, most important thing with Jnats I think is not to generalize. 
Each stone can be quite different in its characteristics, so the best way IMHO is to trust the recommondation of a trustworthy vendor for a specific stone.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 26, 2016)

One more vote to Ohira Suita. Also, those Takashimas from JNS are a bit coarser but very nice.


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## Krassi (Jul 26, 2016)

Yep Ohira suitas especially shiro suitas with aka renge are awesome for kitchenknifes!

I think they are the best suitable ones if they are not to hard.
but all other famous suitas like maruyama, okudo , shinden and whatever is fast , smooth and fine will work great.

those big bricks are hard to get or pretty much 500+++ eurobuck's

i posted my bricks in the whats new section some time ago. they are good examples of stones that rock for kitchenknives .. the steel does not matter.
http://imgur.com/a/c1KFK

the really good ones make instantly black swarf after the first strokes .. you actually cant really say one is muchmuch better then the rest.
they are often from the same layer but another location of the same kyoto mountain.. 
what amazes me are the awesome colors and patterns.. you actually never know whats some millimeters below the surface.

Suitas in general have "su" small airpockets formed by gas within the stone.. on my first jnat i was shocked that it had some little holes!!! "oh my good it has holes!! oh... " well you normally never hit them with your blade whatever you try.. 

aiiwatani is also a very nice beginner as mentioned. easy to use with good features.
i actually never tried an uchigumori since i make a wreck finish on my knifes..

one thing that amazes me here.. you get the impression that everyone has at least 2 katos and shigs, but no jnats for them  


i have 2 spare ohira suitas a bit smaller.. 
interesting to see how different they are.

the nearly white shiro suita from watanabe is super smooth and ultra fast and the dark grey one with tons more renge is much harder and not so fast.
Both suita / both ohira but totally different.






sorry for the poor cellphone quality but my big cam is in my office

lots of suita stuff
*http://imgur.com/a/zGccB
*


if you can stand some german acid like gatling gun talking then i have to comparisons of my first jnats ...you can also turn down the volume 
those are older videos i made from my first jnats (well old.. ehmm they are made not even a year ago)

[video=youtube;QeFAv7lgqrM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeFAv7lgqrM[/video] Maruyama Suita (japanmessershop.de)
[video=youtube;QDVxO9kyKUU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDVxO9kyKUU[/video] Ohira Suita (Watanabe .. and he surprisingly liked my video ) )

Translation: Blablablabal super awesome blablabla wow blablaba ) makes karate like sharpness blablaba.. sorry for my gibberish 
*
NEVER use a diamond plate on a good suita!*..swarf inferno after just some strokes as mentionend and no need for a naguro or anything to get it running. 

well just some example how crazy fast those things are.


best regards, and i will make some more videos soon and more photos.
Daniel


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## foody518 (Jul 28, 2016)

Wow... I really wish i had your Suita collection. Great looking stones


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## F-Flash (Jul 29, 2016)

http://www.aframestokyo.com/ohira-renge-suita-natural-whetstone-6528g-16528171.html

thats the one I got, eager to get to try it out!


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## Badgertooth (Jul 30, 2016)

F-Flash said:


> http://www.aframestokyo.com/ohira-renge-suita-natural-whetstone-6528g-16528171.html
> 
> thats the one I got, eager to get to try it out!



You'll love it if it's even a little bit as nice as it looks. Welcome to the rabbit hole.


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## Smurfmacaw (Jul 30, 2016)

I've got an Ohira Suita and really like it. I've been experimenting with different nagura's and they make a difference I "think". It makes for a really sharp toothy edge for sure. The different naguras leave a noticeably different edge. 5200 REALLY likes a Botan Nagura on the Ohira Suita as the last step.....At 40x it is a really nicely polished edge but still is toothy as heck.


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## jaknil (Aug 2, 2016)

Krassi said:


> ...NEVER use a diamond plate on a good suita! ...
> Daniel


I agree, ...... But you actually just did it. In the video you clearly state that you use an Atoma 600 on the stone!
Any explanation for this?

By the way, if you are willing to sell any of your suitas. Please send me a pm :2cents:


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## Krassi (Aug 3, 2016)

hhehe ! yep today i would give me a captain picard facepalm for this 

i was young and naive and needed the money... ehh well  i just thought this would be good..
no need for artificial mud creation on those actually.

the atoma is so run down, because i grinded it on my dmt and now its super jnat safe without any danger for scratches.
i never tried naguros and also dondt wanna 


the ones i could actually sell is the watanabe ohira and that darker one. well ill have to think about it as i have bigger stuff.. ill pm you if i need the money  (i am a collector that usually never sells stuff)


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## jaknil (Aug 4, 2016)

Krassi said:


> the ones i could actually sell is the watanabe ohira and that darker one. well ill have to think about it as i have bigger stuff.. ill pm you if i need the money



Well, please do :thumbsup:


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## jaknil (Aug 22, 2016)

Well, I guess this Ohira Suita magic is not for everyone.
Since the last post, I bought 2 of these from Krassi. 
See the picture in post #15, the two on the right. 

I like my Aiiwatani much better. And even though I have only sharpend a few knives on these stones, I already know: they have to go..


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## Marcelo Amaral (Aug 22, 2016)

Hi jaknil, why do you like the Aiiwatani bettter?


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## jaknil (Aug 22, 2016)

Well. I guess I like the aiiwatani for a bit more versability, as I use it with different naguras, and in the end, without nagura. 
My Aiiwatani is a lv 3 or 3,5. 
This way I can use it to different grits. 

I have always been told not to use naguras on the suita stones, and so I will not. 
I have been reading a lot about the magic of these stones, but...
One of them are quite hard (smallest one) and the other is fast and a lot softer. Actually a very nice stone. But it just does not speak to me as I thought it would.
Does it make sense?


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## Marcelo Amaral (Aug 22, 2016)

Sure, sounds like you had some expectations that were not fully met. I think there is a great deal of subjectivity when it comes to choosing your "right" jnat. I was just curious what was your line of thought. My ohira suita is resonably hard (around lv 4) and fine, but it is fast and that's why i like it so much. It leaves a finish that makes a big difference when one compares the edge before and after using it, but it is fast. So far, never had another stone quite like that.


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## Krassi (Aug 22, 2016)

hii!

@jaknil
well i hope there will be some more magic with the shiro suita its 3,5. And it does make sense what you are saying!
i also had an aiiwatana and it really is super easy to use but it was to small for me to be a funstone .. i hope suitas will rock you 
between the 4 big ones i have they are all very similar..


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## jaknil (Aug 22, 2016)

Jacob_x: Clear some space in your inbox.....


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## Jacob_x (Aug 22, 2016)

Ha yeah whoops have done so...


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