# Clad double bevel knives & quality control



## osakajoe (Mar 12, 2019)

Just want to bring up an issue I’ve been noticing more and more concerning clad knives. Hoping that more consumers will know when to not buy or when to return knives that are what I consider faulty or B grade. As well as any amateur makers on here what not to pass on. 

Clad knives are knives with a core of a hard still clad between two softer pieces of metal. This cladding can be iron, stainless steel, or Damascus. To form a cutting edge with the core one of the main principles is to grind away the cladding to bring out the core on both sides. 

As an apprentice grinder for two years now, it is baffling when I see this first main step overlooked and passed on to the consumer. I am not talking amateur or cheap knives. I’ve seen it more and more recently out of the takefu area knives that are quite expensive. 

I was just at the Kobe knife event last week where many of the big names out of takefu came. 3 out of every 10 knives I inspected had this issue. That is way too high in my opinion. 

Here is a small example:






I will not name any brands out of takefu, as it really doesn’t matter. Most the big names out of there are forgers who do not do the grinding/sharpening. They just forge the blanks and then all probably send them to the same grinders there in the village. I have yet to confirm this 100 percent but will eventually get around to it one day. 

My guess is that they’ve oversold and are backed up in production. This causes QC to go down as new workers are brought in or beginners are given tasks they aren’t ready for in order to meet demand. 

I bought a few and fixed them. Here’s is what they look like. 





This one I just tried to barely sharpen the edge to bring out the core then gave a light blasting to get some contrast. 

The issue with these knives is the Damascus cladding layered are both “soft”. To bring out the contrast they are acid etched. I don’t have the means of doing this. So on one of the knives trying to bring out the core resulted in the edge falling apart as it was already to thinned having be over ground on the opposite side. 

Then I had to re-grind and properly shape it again. Since I had to grind a higher bevel bringing out the same contrast was impossible. So was left with the choices of leaving it very polished or going with a blast. I chose the blast as I prefer it aesthetically but it makes the layers look like one layer. 






As you can tell this isn’t impossible to fix but I have many tools at my disposal. Most end users do not, especially for Damascus cladding. If it was just a three layered knife you could probably knock it out within a few hours of work on stones to give it a decent look. 

Again it’s not just that area but other bigger Japanese companies I see exporting. More and more sub contracting to Chinese makers and you end up with the same issues but more severe:






Again not trying to place blame but trying to make the issue aware so it is brought up and hopefully corrected. As well as for consumer education on what to look out for.


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## Godslayer (Mar 12, 2019)

Look at that bottom knife. That might be the worst one I've ever seen. But I've noticed this too, I go to a certain Calgary knife shop and notice ot from time to time.


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## osakajoe (Mar 12, 2019)

Godslayer said:


> Look at that bottom knife. That might be the worst one I've ever seen. But I've noticed this too, I go to a certain Calgary knife shop and notice ot from time to time.



And that’s off their official product website!


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 12, 2019)

Unfortunately I've noticed this a common problem with Murray Carter's knives, even the very pricey MS damascus blades with the cladding extending into the cutting edge.


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## Dhoff (Mar 12, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> Just want to bring up an issue I’ve been noticing more and more concerning clad knives. Hoping that more consumers will know when to not buy or when to return knives that are what I consider faulty or B grade. As well as any amateur makers on here what not to pass on.
> 
> Clad knives are knives with a core of a hard still clad between two softer pieces of metal. This cladding can be iron, stainless steel, or Damascus. To form a cutting edge with the core one of the main principles is to grind away the cladding to bring out the core on both sides.
> 
> ...



Very sober and nicely phrased thread. thank you for the heads up.


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## refcast (Mar 12, 2019)

What's a good distance for the cladding line to be from the edge? I know that the word is that some makers have great skill to use as thin a strip of core steel as possible, while few others like to use a lot of core steel. Also I think I saw that thinner ground knives seem to have a greater distance between the edge and core steel, while thicker ground knives seem to have a smaller distance.


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## never mind (Mar 12, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> this a common problem with Murray Carter's knives



So sad...


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## milkbaby (Mar 12, 2019)

refcast said:


> What's a good distance for the cladding line to be from the edge? I know that the word is that some makers have great skill to use as thin a strip of core steel as possible, while few others like to use a lot of core steel. Also I think I saw that thinner ground knives seem to have a greater distance between the edge and core steel, while thicker ground knives seem to have a smaller distance.



It's not an issue of height of the cladding line from the edge. The issue is whether the hardened core steel is at the edge.

In Japanese san mai or other clad construction (such as the damascus cladding Joe showed), the cladding is material that doesn't reach the hardness of the core steel. It can be low carbon mild steel or even iron. You want the entire edge to be hardened core steel because it's that high hardness that supports acute bevel angles and increases edge retention.

When you forge clad steel, it's important to keep the core steel centered. When you forge the core far off center, when you grind the blade road, you can have soft cladding at the edge in the areas where the core wasn't kept centered enough.

A second way of getting soft cladding at the edge is during grinding the blade road. Many knives are not ground symmetrically, so even if the core was kept relatively centered during forging, it is possible to grind the blade such that you bring cladding to the edge instead of core steel. The result is the same, soft material at the edge where you need hardened steel.

To me, cladding that almost goes to the edge but doesn't actually reach it is okay, just not as aesthetically pleasing as a more even cladding line. Also note that in the case of some western makers, they sometimes use hardenable steel cladding, so in those cases it doesn't matter that the cladding is at the edge because it's about as hard as the core steel.


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## Dan P. (Mar 13, 2019)

It's usually when one over forges the tip or heel that this happens. It should be easily avoidable, but it does happen. Sometimes you need to squeeze a couple more mm out of a forging. As long as the steel is exposed, even just a little bit, on both sides, the blade's primary function is not compromised.


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## Benuser (Mar 13, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> When you forge clad steel, it's important to keep the core steel centered. When you forge the core far off center, when you grind the blade road, you can have soft cladding at the edge in the areas where the core wasn't kept centered enough.


The off-centered core you see with strongly asymmetric blades when looking at the spine: is it only the result of the grinding?


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 13, 2019)

There has been a noticeable decrease in quality, especially in the last few years. But given the 10 X increase in knife retailers and knife brands in the last 5 years in should be no surprise. When you adopt a channel retail approach like Jknives now have quality free falls. Happy i was able to get some nice ones reasonably priced years ago.


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## milkbaby (Mar 13, 2019)

Benuser said:


> The off-centered core you see with strongly asymmetric blades when looking at the spine: is it only the result of the grinding?



I don't know, I don't own any san mai knives that are highly asymmetrical. Probably @osakajoe can chime back in here?


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## tgfencer (Mar 13, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> It's not an issue of height of the cladding line from the edge. The issue is whether the hardened core steel is at the edge.
> To me, cladding that almost goes to the edge but doesn't actually reach it is okay, just not as aesthetically pleasing as a more even cladding line.





Dan P. said:


> As long as the steel is exposed, even just a little bit, on both sides, the blade's primary function is not compromised.



I agree with both of these statements. The distance isn't necessarily important, its the core steel forming the entirety of the edge that matters. Indeed some makers leave cladding purposefully close to the edge while leaving minimal core exposed. It's very much each to their own in terms of preferred aesthetics for cladding.

Moral of the story: Buy from trusted vendors/makers if you're worried about this problem.


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## Benuser (Mar 13, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> I don't know, I don't own any san mai knives that are highly asymmetrical. Probably @osakajoe can chime back in here?


Very obvious with e.g. the Hiromotos @Dave Martell works with.


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## HRC_64 (Mar 13, 2019)

Isn't the point that if the smith is highly skilled, he's still keeping the the edge centered in the correct plane?

This is the same thing as overgind...if there's a hole in the centreline the knife is in trouble.
Likewise, if ther is cladding in the centreline the knife is in trouble 

But in between those (fatal) problems, there are grades of "less than optimal" or "poor quality".


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## osakajoe (Mar 13, 2019)

Benuser said:


> The off-centered core you see with strongly asymmetric blades when looking at the spine: is it only the result of the grinding?



If looking just at the spine it can be either depending on how it’s made. Usually if working with pre laminated bar stock you generally see even on both sides. The hammering can cause the core to not be exactly straight. 

If polishing the face of the blade one can grind off more on one side causing it to look uneven. 

I primarily sharpen asymmetrical knives. Looking at the spine doesn’t show anything. You can tell by looking at the face of the blades on both sides. 






This is a knife I just sharpened. Since it Damascus cladding it’s easier to see and make my point. 

The back side is the more flatter side. You can see the layers protruding more as well as more core exposed. 

The front side is the more “round” side. You can see the layers are not as exposed as the back and tend to protrude from the middle instead of further back. 

This particular knife I’ve done hundreds of and am very comfortably working with fast and doing correctly. It’s very easy to over grind the back side and bring out even more core if you’re not careful. This then makes it harder to thin and correctly sharpen the other side. 

Which brings me to my baffling point. Step ONE in the grind process is the rough sharpening where you first just bring out the core on both sides. 

Rough sharpening on same knife:





So for these mistakes to be made means they didn’t do the very first step correctly and makes everything after that much harder to do.


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## Cyrilix (Mar 13, 2019)

@osakajoe Are you an industry insider and know that renowned Japanese knife makers or companies subcontract out to China? I'm trying to figure out whether this statement is credible or simply presumptuous.

By renowned, I simply mean the ones we talk about everyday on these forums, not the no name brands.


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## osakajoe (Mar 13, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> @osakajoe Are you an industry insider and know that renowned Japanese knife makers or companies subcontract out to China? I'm trying to figure out whether this statement is credible or simply presumptuous.
> 
> By renowned, I simply mean the ones we talk about everyday on these forums, not the no name brands.



I’m six years into the knife industry here in Japan. None of the brands ever discussed on here do this to my knowledge. You see it more in the cheap stainless steel mass produced knife brands. Stuff you see in gift catalogs and such. The one I pictured in the original post is from a big brand that does some domestic and others not. And again I’m not here point fingers at people just trying to educate. However, I will point it out in the case that someone is making false statements on here that I know not to be true.


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## Cyrilix (Mar 13, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> I’m six years into the knife industry here in Japan. None of the brands ever discussed on here do this to my knowledge. You see it more in the cheap stainless steel mass produced knife brands. Stuff you see in gift catalogs and such. The one I pictured in the original post is from a big brand that does some domestic and others not. And again I’m not here point fingers at people just trying to educate. However, I will point it out in the case that someone is making false statements on here that I know not to be true.



Okay, that's understandable. With the mass-produced brands, that's 100% expected. There's no reason for mass-produced brands not to go with a country well known for good-enough manufacturing at a good price. Especially with the brands we talk about here, I think people want fingers to be pointed. I know I certainly do. We spend a lot of money on knives and only people with experience can tell us where that investment is worthwhile. If even those people are holding out when there is clear proof of quality issues, then who will help the community?

As an example, when you post a picture of a knife where the san-mai is done improperly, it's not particularly easy to fake it and if we get many of these reports from many people, then it all adds up, and we can definitely recommend people to stay away. The opposite is true as well. If there so happens to be a great Chinese-made knife, I would want to know which ones are a clear cut above the rest so they can be recommended.


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## Benuser (Mar 14, 2019)

My observation with off-centered core as seen from the spine was with a carbon core in stainless cladding. With a bit of oxidation you see the core as a black line.


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## never mind (Mar 14, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> ’’ve been noticing...trying to make the issue aware



osakajoe! This is a lot of works, passions, guts & care. Thank you.


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## Dan P. (Mar 14, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> If looking just at the spine it can be either depending on how it’s made. Usually if working with pre laminated bar stock you generally see even on both sides. The hammering can cause the core to not be exactly straight.
> 
> If polishing the face of the blade one can grind off more on one side causing it to look uneven.
> 
> ...



The knife in the post above shows no signs of having been forged, which is no doubt why the steel core is nice and even.
To be fair, the cladding on the heel of the knife in the first picture you posted (in your first post) was low, but it looks to me like the steel is still exposed. It would not be exposed enough for one of my knives, but that is perhaps more a matter of taste and perhaps quality than of utility.
If you are baffled by what's going on when you find low cladding lines, Osaka Joe, it might be enlightening for you to consider that the forged geometry of a blade, toe to heel, will be a fairly complex development of changing angles and thicknesses, in contrast to the knife in your last post, which I presume was either jet cut or cut in a press, and will thus not show any variation in geometry.


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## RDalman (Mar 14, 2019)

You gotta learn to forge like a rolling mill Dan, hammering like a caveman with different thicknesses is not good enough anymore


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## osakajoe (Mar 14, 2019)

Dan P. said:


> The knife in the post above shows no signs of having been forged, which is no doubt why the steel core is nice and even.
> To be fair, the cladding on the heel of the knife in the first picture you posted (in your first post) was low, but it looks to me like the steel is still exposed. It would not be exposed enough for one of my knives, but that is perhaps more a matter of taste and perhaps quality than of utility.
> If you are baffled by what's going on when you find low cladding lines, Osaka Joe, it might be enlightening for you to consider that the forged geometry of a blade, toe to heel, will be a fairly complex development of changing angles and thicknesses, in contrast to the knife in your last post, which I presume was either jet cut or cut in a press, and will thus not show any variation in geometry.



Yes, there is a hairline core showing on that picture but that’s still barely anything. The others were more severe but didn’t snap photos as I got the idea of the post while I was fixing them. But still I would never pass that on to anyone. 

Concerning the latest pics, I never said it wasn’t a HAND forged knife. It still a forged blade. It’s a roll forged press cut blade. But how it was forged was not the point. 

It was what I was working on at the time of the post so snapped photos of it to show as an example of what should be done as the first step in grinding. Bringing out the core. 

If you’d like a hand forged knife picture example. I’ll get you one. 

I work on many of those as well and, yes there are much more difficult to sharpen and easier to mess up. But the principle remains the same when it comes to the rough sharpening and bringing out the core.


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## RDalman (Mar 14, 2019)

A thinner core ratio= better straightenability during grinding, and possible to grind thinner without loosing that straightenability, but also the difficulty goes up exponentially. Worth to keep in mind also here is how san mai blades warp during grinding and need to be checked and straightened often. 
But anyway soft cladding should never be on the edge, so good post Osakajoe.


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## osakajoe (Mar 14, 2019)

RDalman said:


> Worth to keep in mind also here is how san mai blades warp during grinding and need to be checked and straightened often.



This is a very good and crucial point. Glad you brought it up. 

Especially when working in a water with and a sharpening stick. Always have to check and straighten. Common methods are with a straightening stick or hammer and anvil (if it can handle it) 

If not straight you can easily over grind one side causing these issues to arise.


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## Dan P. (Mar 14, 2019)

It's a fair point and seeing the cladding touching the edge is annoying, as a knife forger and a knife grinder, and it can compromise the utility of the knife.
But- better to compare like with like, and also to be specific when pointing out flaws in other people's work, saying what you think went wrong, why you think it compromises the integrity of the work.
And, I don't mean to pick on you, osaka Joe, but calling a stamped or otherwise cut out piece of metal "forged" because it once saw a rolling mill seems disingenuous.


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## osakajoe (Mar 14, 2019)

No worries here. I get picked on all the time by family so am use to it. I’m on here to educate myself and hopefully pass on any knowledge I may have to others. A healthy discussion promotes that. 

I will say that technically, all knives are forged. However, I would never claim a roll forged blade as a hand forged blade. And would never belittle or try to take anything away from the blade smith. Smithing is a long hard craft to learn and master and something I don’t think I’ll ever have time to devote, until I master the craft of grinding. Which is still many years and thousands of knives away. 

But if you want a hand forged example instead of my last pics, here’s some other work I’ve done that I happen to have pics of on my phone. 

Hand forged GIN 3 stainless clad gyuto 210 and 300 I think









Side comment on above pic: you can see a steel “fork toothbrush“ that I use to straighten small bends. Note sure if there is s technical term for this. 

Hand forged white 1 stainless clad K-tip gyuto 240






Same basic step, bring out the core. Then proceed to thin and widen while revealing more core. 

Again the issue pointed out at the beginning is to check to make sure your clad knives are properly sharpened or to get them fixed or exchanged if not. Just hoping makers don’t hastily skip over this basic step. And if they do, hoping that the customers point this out to them and they correct and learn from the issue. I would like to think that the knife community as a whole would benefit from this.


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## HRC_64 (Mar 14, 2019)

Good post and this is a logical topic of discussion...
even for people that believe a little wabi-sabi is OK 
its useful to understand where to draw the line


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 18, 2019)

good discussion

I guess this has already been said...My experience is this is a problem of forging too hard on one side and pushing the core over... or improper straightening of a hardened blade. I know because in my early period as a maker, I made these mistakes.



Corradobrit1 said:


> Unfortunately I've noticed this a common problem with Murray Carter's knives, even the very pricey MS damascus blades with the cladding extending into the cutting edge.


Common? that seems extreme IMO...how often are you seeing this?
I'm a student of Murray.






regards
Harbeer


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## TB_London (Mar 18, 2019)

I’ve got a 240 carter where the cladding was over the edge towards the tip from what looks like a hammer blow pushing the core off centre. Only showed up when I put it on a muddy stone that makes the cladding hazy. My others from him are all ok though so that’s a 1 in 7 sample (though 1 in 3 from HG line)


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 18, 2019)

HSC3 said:


> Common? that seems extreme IMO...how often are you seeing this?



Maybe go look at his current offerings on his website. Almost 50% of the blades in the MS series show the cladding extending into the edge ,or very close, to varying degrees.


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## never mind (Mar 18, 2019)

K, saw it (as of March 18, 2019, if I saw it correctly). Thanks. Many of them were actually at the tip. It was a surprise, but appreciated. Peace.


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## never mind (Mar 18, 2019)

HSC3 said:


> a maker



Great handle!


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## Dan P. (Mar 19, 2019)

I'd like to reiterate that there is a big difference in cladding coming close (or very close) to the edge, and cladding touching, crossing or otherwise being part of the edge. It is the difference between fit-for-purpose and not.
Remember, a seemingly large difference in the height of the exposed steel can come down, in reality, to fraction of a millimeter in thickness of cladding removed.


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 19, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Maybe go look at his current offerings on his website. Almost 50% of the blades in the MS series show the cladding extending into the edge ,or very close, to varying degrees.


 . I looked and see what you are referring to...
I thought about this some more overnight, There is an aesthetics issue and a performance concern.

If the cladding comes down to the edge, it usually does so only on one side.
I submit to you the cladding coming down on one side in small sections is a non-issue in terms of performance. 



Dan P. said:


> I'd like to reiterate that there is a big difference in cladding coming close (or very close) to the edge, and cladding touching, crossing or otherwise being part of the edge. It is the difference between fit-for-purpose and not.
> Remember, a seemingly large difference in the height of the exposed steel can come down, in reality, to fraction of a millimeter in thickness of cladding removed.



I think Dan and I might be saying the same thing here and agreeing on the impact to the user.
Here's a little sketch, on the area of concern, how thick do you think that area is practically?


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## HRC_64 (Mar 19, 2019)

That diagram is wrong IMHO...the core steel should be displaced by the cladding...
and that bevel line should be symmetrical...(in above rendition)

so you would get a core stel that is not a V shape but has a "cavity",
and the cavity is un-hardened cladding

...the two together are a V shape like regular edge.

Of course its hard to tell from the outside how deep the cavity is...
which is the whole point being raised by OP.


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 19, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> That diagram is wrong IMHO...the core steel should be displaced by the cladding...
> and that bevel line should be symmetrical...(in above rendition)
> 
> so you would get a core stel that is not a V shape but has a "cavity",
> ...



I'm showing a 3 layer cross section...
I'm showing what a forged and ground cross section looks like, I added the "Area of concern" as the cladding that comes down to an edge.

ok fine, I added a bump as the area of concern... fair enough, let's call it displaced...nevertheless, how thick do you think that area of concern is? It's pretty thin cladding that is showing at that point

regards


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## HRC_64 (Mar 19, 2019)

Yes, that's correct....now consider the centreline...

this will illuminate the issue more clearly:


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 19, 2019)

I’ve given my opinion based on making about 160 laminated steel blades. 

Again good discussion but the more I think about it the more I feel this is really A non issue in terms of practical performance

Regards
Harbeer


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## ian (Mar 19, 2019)

Is the point that the depression is rarely as dramatic as the one in the last picture?


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 19, 2019)

ianbiringer said:


> Is the point that the depression is rarely as dramatic as the one in the last picture?


yes

but in further reflection and conversation with someone else about this....

I think this is the most important point - there should be no soft steel on the cutting (primary) edge itself. The soft cladding can go down to the bottom of the bevel (secondary) edge. Soft cladding on the primary edge itself (would impede cutting). 

So visually it might look like the soft cladding is down to the edge, but I suspect not. I believe the hard core is exposed on the cutting (primary) edge.

regards
Harbeer


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## Dan P. (Mar 19, 2019)

ianbiringer said:


> Is the point that the depression is rarely as dramatic as the one in the last picture?



No, unless it was forged with something like a pickaxe. 



HRC_64 said:


> That diagram is wrong IMHO...the core steel should be displaced by the cladding...
> and that bevel line should be symmetrical...(in above rendition)
> 
> so you would get a core stel that is not a V shape but has a "cavity",
> ...



One gets islands of cladding left on the steel sometimes, usually when the forging is quite severe and the grind quite high, but they are but a few microns thick, and the reason for cladding being close to the edge is nothing to do with "cavities".
As I believe I've said before, the difference between a 5mm high area of exposed steel and 0.75mm high area of exposed steel can be but a fraction of a mm of diversion in actual depth of grind, and not abnormal degree of variation in a forged knife. 
Concerning the point raised by the OP, and with all due respect, he has said himself that he is not particularly well placed to give an informed analysis of why cladding might come close to the edge, and as a result his point has been shown to be somewhat lacking in substance.


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## labor of love (Mar 19, 2019)

Dan P. said:


> No, unless it was forged with something like a pickaxe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You would do well to reread the OPs original post. He never claimed to be a private investigator.


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## TB_London (Mar 19, 2019)

Get a wooden pencil and sharpen it, you need the lead at the edge to write with and not the wood. It’s that concept here. So long as lead touches the paper it’ll write. Having wood go close to the paper is fine, in fact it supports the lead. Peel the wood away to leave an inch of just lead sticking out and see how quickly it snaps in use. Same concept, the cladding supports a hard and relatively brittle core.


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## labor of love (Mar 19, 2019)

TB_London said:


> Peel the wood away to leave an inch of just lead sticking out and see how quickly it snaps in use.


No one is talking about an inch(25mm). But yeah, I certainly wouldn’t buy a knife knowing cladding extended down to 2mm close to the blade.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 19, 2019)

TB_London said:


> Get a wooden pencil and sharpen it, you need the lead at the edge to write with and not the wood. It’s that concept here. So long as lead touches the paper it’ll write. Having wood go close to the paper is fine, in fact it supports the lead. Peel the wood away to leave an inch of just lead sticking out and see how quickly it snaps in use. Same concept, the cladding supports a hard and relatively brittle core.


Poor analogy. Thats not the purpose of the cladding. The core steel is harder than the softer cladding.


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## bahamaroot (Mar 19, 2019)

TB_London said:


> Get a wooden pencil and sharpen it, you need the lead at the edge to write with and not the wood. It’s that concept here. So long as lead touches the paper it’ll write. Having wood go close to the paper is fine, in fact it supports the lead. Peel the wood away to leave an inch of just lead sticking out and see how quickly it snaps in use. Same concept, the cladding supports a hard and relatively brittle core.


If that analogy held true then a mono-steel knife wouldn't be possible.


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## Nemo (Mar 19, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> If that analogy held true then a mono-steel knife wouldn't be possible.


It would be a crayon, I think.


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## TB_London (Mar 20, 2019)

https://www.theworks.co.uk/p/art-pencils/pure-graphite-pencils---pack-of-7/5052089237162

Perfectly possible, but where the wood is in a clad knife is more lead.....

Mono knives are usually made a bit thicker than the middle of a san mai ....

Thin a knife too much to expose more core, rather than maintain the edge geometry and you’ll get an edge too thin that will chip/fold

It’s obviously not a perfect analogy but the concept is a pencil that has wood instead of lead rubbing the paper isn’t much good and neither is a laminate where the cladding hits the chopping board instead of the core steel


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## Dan P. (Mar 20, 2019)

labor of love said:


> You would do well to reread the OPs original post. He never claimed to be a private investigator.



He framed his post as an "expose" of sorts, a heads up as to what is acceptable and what is not.
Unfortunately the example photo he posted of a flawed blade (1st photo), is not a good example. The core can be seen, and thus, while it does suggest a lapse craftsmanship, it is still fit for purpose, end of story.
The further photos he posted, illustrating "good" craftsmanship (which juuust so happen to be his own work), are of stamped blades, not forged ones. Also, names were named, albeit generic- i.e. knives from Takefu. So that is a problem for knife makers from Takefu, and without full explanation and relevant examples, it is unfair. 

To be clear, and as has been said numerous times in this thread, if the cladding touches, crosses, or is in any other way part of or included in the edge of the blade, that is a fault which would compromise the function of the blade, and it would need to be remedied for that blade to be sold in good faith.
If the cladding comes so close to the edge that you have to peer closely at it to confirm that the steel is indeed exposed (as in the first photo in this thread), that is an example of somewhat faulty or hasty craftsmanship, and, depending on the price point at which the knife was sold, would be better remedied for the satisfaction of the customer and so that the cladding does not subsequently come into contact with the edge due to incompetent sharpening.
Lastly, because there is some confusion as to how uneven exposure of the core comes about in clad knives, I have attached a scale drawing of the phenomenon. It shows how a core exposed on one side to the height of 3mm and on the other to a height of 0.7mm actually represents a difference in grinding or a deflection from forging of a thickness of 0.25mm. No "cavities" required. Given that these are hand forged kitchen knives and not aerospace components, I think a quarter of a millimeter is not a bad tolerance.


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## F-Flash (Mar 20, 2019)

https://www.cartercutlery.com/knives/knives/master-smith/8-5-master-smith-108-high-grade-gyuto/

Especially the second photo


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## bennypapa (Mar 20, 2019)

https://www.cartercutlery.com/knive...arter-1502-white-damascus-perfect-neck-knife/

this one too


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## Dan P. (Mar 20, 2019)

F-Flash said:


> https://www.cartercutlery.com/knives/knives/master-smith/8-5-master-smith-108-high-grade-gyuto/
> 
> Especially the second photo



Yeah, okay, that's very odd.


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## HRC_64 (Mar 20, 2019)

Dan P. said:


> Yeah, okay, that's very odd.



AFAIK the geometry in Dan's pic could be (easily?) fixed by thinning the bevel from 15 to 12dps
which is why someone might say its just a sharpening error and not a blacksmith error.

The earlier diagram shows a correctly sharpened knife that has a cladding flaw,
and this is a true blacksmithing anomaly not a sharpening mistake.

The reason for the distinction is precisely they look the same, but aren't...


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## Dan P. (Mar 20, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> AFAIK the geometry in Dan's pic could be (easily?) fixed by thinning the bevel from 15 to 12dps
> which is why someone might say its just a sharpening error and not a blacksmith error.
> 
> The earlier diagram shows a correctly sharpened knife that has a cladding flaw,
> ...



Are you referring to HSC3's second drawing? You must have missed my comment about forging with a pickaxe. Im sure the good people of Takefu don't forge with pickaxes.


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## HRC_64 (Mar 20, 2019)

Dan P. said:


> You must have missed my comment about forging with a pickaxe. Im sure ...




LOL. There are basically two options, one (A) where the outer envelope (sharpening) is correct, and one (B) where it isn't.

As for the earlier drawing, I didn't draw it...I only described it....and Frankly, it doesn't matter if the HSC3 drawing is to scale or not.

Because Dan's "scale diagram" has the same flaw as HSC3's cartoon diagram 

If dan draws a second "scale diagram" the same comment will apply...


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## HRC_64 (Mar 20, 2019)

Btw, none of this is personal...we're just having a discussion about geometry


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## labor of love (Mar 20, 2019)

Dan P. said:


> He framed his post as an "expose" of sorts, a heads up as to what is acceptable and what is not.
> Unfortunately the example photo he posted of a flawed blade (1st photo), is not a good example. The core can be seen, and thus, while it does suggest a lapse craftsmanship, it is still fit for purpose, end of story.
> The further photos he posted, illustrating "good" craftsmanship (which juuust so happen to be his own work), are of stamped blades, not forged ones. Also, names were named, albeit generic- i.e. knives from Takefu. So that is a problem for knife makers from Takefu, and without full explanation and relevant examples, it is unfair.
> 
> ...


But you also said there wasn’t enough core steel exposed in the example to be acceptable for one of your blades.
Again, if you reread the original post the OP never said the knife in the example had cladding at the edge. He never said it wasn’t “fit for purpose”, the critique is a lapse in grind quality. Infact the OP named the thread “clad double bevel knives and quality control”.
Yes, obviously if core steel is exposed at the edge then yes the blade is functional but is .7-1.0mm really acceptable to most consumers? I think not, and I also think most customers agree with me that a good 5-10mm of exposed steel is desired.
I’m not sure why it matters whether or not Joe used some of his own work as examples either. He isn’t here to push his products, I think it’s likely better for him to remain mostly anonymous.


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## Migraine (Mar 20, 2019)

How do blades like Will Catcheside's fall into this? He (presumably by design) only has a TINY amount of core steel exposed on his san mai knives. Is it different because they are wide bevel?


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## labor of love (Mar 20, 2019)

Migraine said:


> How do blades like Will Catcheside's fall into this? He (presumably by design) only has a TINY amount of core steel exposed on his san mai knives. Is it different because they are wide bevel?


Looks like plenty of exposed core steel to me
http://www.catchesidecutlery.com/pricing-and-options.html


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## Migraine (Mar 20, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Looks like plenty of exposed core steel to me
> http://www.catchesidecutlery.com/pricing-and-options.html



https://www.instagram.com/p/BueS6YUBF5o/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1pitjwhnu1cdp

E.g.

(I bought one of those two).

Maybe I'm seeing it wrong but to me it looks like only a teeny tiny strip of exposed core steel.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 20, 2019)

Personally I think too little core is exposed on these recent san mai Catchies


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## labor of love (Mar 20, 2019)

Migraine said:


> https://www.instagram.com/p/BueS6YUBF5o/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1pitjwhnu1cdp
> 
> E.g.
> 
> ...


It’s hard to say where the lamination line is. What you see is just the polish from the finished edge. Since there’s no contrast between core steel polish and cladding, it looks the same.


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## bahamaroot (Mar 20, 2019)

labor of love said:


> It’s hard to say where the lamination line is. What you see is just the polish from the finished edge. Since there’s no contrast between core steel polish and cladding, it looks the same.


It may be hard to see or tell from a picture but he bought one of them. If "it looks like only a teeny tiny strip of exposed core steel" to him with it in hand I'll take his word for it.


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## labor of love (Mar 20, 2019)

Right, I was under the impression he hadn’t received the knife yet. Which is why he’s asking.


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## labor of love (Mar 20, 2019)

@Migraine ?


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 20, 2019)

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/show-your-newest-knife-buy.7655/page-432

Post 12952

Migraine received it a couple of weeks ago. You can just about make out the narrow edge of the shinier core steel in his pics.


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## labor of love (Mar 20, 2019)

Cool. I can’t see anything from those pics.


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## Migraine (Mar 21, 2019)

labor of love said:


> @Migraine ?


Sorry I'm a UK boi, that post was at 1.30am for me. To my eyes, it looks like only a very thin amount of exposed core steel (and I vaguely remember someone else mentioning the same on here) but I'm still a bit of a knife pleb so I may not be seeing it right.

I'll try take some better photos tonight.

Maybe Will wants to chime in, he's @WillC I think


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## Dan P. (Mar 21, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I’m not sure why it matters whether or not Joe used some of his own work as examples either. He isn’t here to push his products, I think it’s likely better for him to remain mostly anonymous.



It matters a bit because he has named Takefu as a source of naff blades, which on closer inspection are not, technically speaking, naff.
And if I were to point out some maker's work as being "bad", it would be a bit cheeky to then use photos of my own work to illustrate what is "good".
And, of course this is not personal, but if you make statements on a public forum, you may be asked to defend them, especially if you are not very clear and very correct about what you are on about.

My last, hopefully edifying, point is that the reason that blades are sent out with cladding close to the line is likely that, as already discussed, it does not render it technically faulty, but also that it requires regrinding and reprofiling that will necessarily involve change of the profile, viz. narrowing/loss of "height". So it is a practical concern, particularly for consistency in profile, that comes into conflict with an aesthetic concern.


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## RDalman (Mar 21, 2019)

San mai knives are naff alright?
Lazy sharpeners... Putting out wonky profiles and bendy blades (oh I better put some smileys with that-


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## Dan P. (Mar 21, 2019)

RDalman said:


> San mai knives are naff alright?
> Lazy sharpeners... Putting out wonky profiles and bendy blades (oh I better put some smileys with that-


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## never mind (Mar 21, 2019)

Liked!


I also like your amazing integral bolsters!


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## osakajoe (Mar 21, 2019)

Let’s all take a deep breath and relax. Let’s see if I can clarify a few things that keep coming up. 

First, I am studying the craft of Japanese knife sharpening and grinding . I will not pretend to know and comment on other crafts such a forging. I will comment, answer questions, and share knowledge on the grinding and sharpening process. 

Second, I was sent to a knife show to purchase many knives from the Takefu craftsman that were to be present. I always thoroughly inspect and purchase the knives I considered ok and pass on the ones that have what I considered faults. Over the years you get a few here and there with mistakes but recently at a much higher percentage. The mistake being that core of clad knives not being properly brought out. 

To help point out specific issues for Dan, I had to dig through all knives I purchased there to see if I had anymore that I did not already fix. Here are two:










I know to many this may seem like a small issue or even petty to bring up, but you have to remember this is literally what I’m being taught to do everyday. To put it in an analogy, I thought:

C’mon guys, don’t go build your house without first laying your foundation. 

I know this may not sound like a good analogy to you but to me it’s is because it stresses the importance of that first step and that it must be done properly. 

With that in mind I decided to create the thread to bring awareness to the community and consumer to just make sure to be on the lookout. As it can be fixed with time and proper tools or to feel free to bring up the issue with the retailer. I’d prefer the later as it would hopefully help to raise the level of quality control on all stages. 

Now why I was posting pictures of my work was not to promote myself. Dan had commented on why I was baffled that this happens. I could of just typed this:

“I’m baffled because bringing out the core on both sides is literally the first step in the sharpening process of clad knives. “

How they are forged is irrelevant when talking about this step of bringing out the core. If talking about the level of difficulty, then we can have a different discussion. 

As I am a visual learner, I posted pictures I had on my phone of that exact process. Of course it’s my work, as you can’t just walk into another grinding workshop and say hey let me snap some photos of the initial rough grinding work you’re doing. This work just happened to be a roll forged knife (later posts have hand forged blades examples). But again, it is irrelevant when talking about the rough sharpening step as the core on a roll forged and hand forged knife still need to be brought out. 

So again just wanted to bring awareness to the issue and share my thoughts on it a to hopefully initiate a healthy discussion.


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## Michi (Mar 22, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> Let’s all take a deep breath and relax. Let’s see if I can clarify a few things that keep coming up.


If I could like this, I would. Thanks for following up!


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## Nemo (Mar 22, 2019)

Michi said:


> If I could like this, I would. Thanks for following up!


You can like it, you just can't "Like" it any more [emoji16]


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## Matus (Mar 22, 2019)

To someone not directly invested in this topic it might seem that the part of the problem is makers trying to make very fancy lamination lines and taking it too far at times. The knife from Carter mentioned earlier seems to be a prime example (I still can not wrap my head around the fact that he would simply not toss or at least re-grind that blade). 

I personally appreciate most hand weld-forged blades where the smith works hard to get those lamination lines even and controlled. Yes, jumpy lamination lines can look cool, but especially with simple sanmai blades (no damascus cladding) are usually a sign of a lack of control rather than artistry (there are exceptions of course). Maybe once I will get a chance to start forging my opinion may change


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 22, 2019)

Matus said:


> To someone not directly invested in this topic it might seem that the part of the problem is makers trying to make very fancy lamination lines and taking it too far at times. The knife from Carter mentioned earlier seems to be a prime example (I still can not wrap my head around the fact that he would simply not toss or at least re-grind that blade).
> 
> I personally appreciate most hand weld-forged blades where the smith works hard to get those lamination lines even and controlled. Yes, jumpy lamination lines can look cool, but especially with simple sanmai blades (no damascus cladding) are usually a sign of a lack of control rather than artistry (there are exceptions of course). Maybe once I will get a chance to start forging my opinion may change



Matus, this isn't directed at you specifically....but I can never understand all this discussion about someone and no one ever asks that someone directly, instead there's all this discussion.... 

I asked Murray a few days ago about the knife mentioned earlier. He responded with a very satisfactory answer to me and provided some perspective. In short, the primary cutting edge is fine, although from the pics it may not look like it. So if a guy who has made 26k blades, is a rated ABS MS and I've personally spent 9 days at his shop learning and watching him, tells me the edge is good, I'm likely to believe him. It doesn't mean I can't think for myself. Anyway, If you really care to know, you should ask him yourself.
The reason he didn't "...toss or at least re-grind that blade" is because the primary edge is good.

"...Maybe once I will get a chance to start forging my opinion may change " I suspect it will.... 



osakajoe said:


> How they are forged is irrelevant when talking about this step of bringing out the core.


 . I'm not trying to belittle you or your experience or contribution, but have you actually forged any san mai or laminated blades? I read you mentioned not alot of experience with the forging side.
How they are are forged has ALOT to do with how the core is centered and therefore brought out.

@osakajoe - "...I’m baffled because bringing out the core on both sides is literally the first step in the sharpening process of clad knives. “ you meant grinding here, correct? The core is exposed when grinding. You seem to be only focused on your area of knowledge of studying grinding/sharpening.

Thank you for starting the thread and conversation, however I think we could have all got alot more out of this if you had asked for opinions and practical expertise from others in regards to what problem you are seeing, rather than the "expose" style original post. I'm not trying to be belligerent here, It just seems to me you have a narrow study or skillset in the overall process and you are conveying an opinion based on that narrow expertise.

regards
Harbeer


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## Matus (Mar 22, 2019)

Harbeer - you make a fair point. If I were interested in that particular knife from Murray I would indeed ask about this issue of course.


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## RDalman (Mar 22, 2019)

Harbeer, japanese often consider the grinding stage to be the sharpening stage. I agree with it, and with the technique of exposing the core first. I'm not a fan of a chunky microbevel that I would guess the carter knives in question have.


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## HRC_64 (Mar 22, 2019)

RDalman said:


> Harbeer, japanese often consider the grinding stage to be the sharpening stage. I agree with it, and with the technique of exposing the core first. I'm not a fan of a chunky microbevel that I would guess the carter knives in question have.



One has to remember that generally speaking blacksmiths in sakai are not experts at sharpening.
That is a separate job, which has its own mastery, and its own aprentices...


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 22, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> One has to remember that generally speaking blacksmiths in sakai are not experts at sharpening.
> That is a separate job, which has its own mastery, and its own aprentices...



Yes, I understand,
and thanks for taking the higher road and editing out your initial comment on how you think I sound ....


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## foody518 (Mar 22, 2019)

Thanks osakajoe for starting this thread.

I recently saw a blade that had gotten so out of whack through the years from inappropriate sharpening that even after a significant regrind, there were a few spots where almost certainly the cladding was still at the actual cutting edge. However, microbeveling on a fine stone which yields a shiny hairline bevel, it is visually difficult to distinguish that area from the rest of the edge which had a visible lamination line. Perhaps if I had used magnification...
But I was thinking about that knife in the above point about core steel exposed 0.x mm from the edge functions the same as where the lamination line is visibly 2+mm from the edge. Too close to the edge, with a high polish, and it can just be hard to tell...


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## milkbaby (Mar 22, 2019)

I think an issue here is that @osakajoe works within the traditional Japanese knifemaking system. He can correct me if my impression is wrong, but my impression was that they tend to have certain traditions and methods that are usually hewn to by those working in traditional arts and crafts such as knifemaking. I'm guessing that bringing out the core as one of the earliest steps of sharpening/grinding bevels is widely accepted practice (probably second to initial straightening?), so it wouldn't be surprising that he finds these issues with the location of the cladding a disappointment.

I think most people contributing to this thread would easily see if it was an issue on a specific knife as any spot that had cladding as the actually cutting edge would be seen as a dull spot fairly quickly?


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## ian (Mar 22, 2019)

Just curious:

Say I want to make a knife with a lamination line that has dramatic, artful wobbles, like that Carter knife referenced above. How do I do it?

I’m assuming it isn’t just that the knife is thinner in certain places, so do I take out my trusty pickaxe and whack it at artfully irregular intervals along the length during forging? Or is it something completely different?


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## HRC_64 (Mar 22, 2019)

metal-working hammers have curved faces


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## Mute-on (Mar 22, 2019)

Migraine said:


> https://www.instagram.com/p/BueS6YUBF5o/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1pitjwhnu1cdp
> 
> E.g.
> 
> ...





Corradobrit1 said:


> Personally I think too little core is exposed on these recent san mai Catchies



Are you absolutely certain these are San mai construction? If not, maybe you could ask Will? 

It looks like forged mono to me with the glint of the edge bevel showing up in photos. I have one of Will’s pre-forgie Monos and the edge bevel is like this, and perfect.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 22, 2019)

Mute-on said:


> Are you absolutely certain these are San mai construction?


 100%


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## Mute-on (Mar 22, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> 100%



Hmmm.


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## HRC_64 (Mar 22, 2019)

This seems to be the best shot of them...no idea from the IG about construction questions
...image is just for the thread...


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## Migraine (Mar 22, 2019)

Mute-on said:


> Are you absolutely certain these are San mai construction? If not, maybe you could ask Will?
> 
> It looks like forged mono to me with the glint of the edge bevel showing up in photos. I have one of Will’s pre-forgie Monos and the edge bevel is like this, and perfect.





> ...
> Steel is san mai , mild steel 1.2442 core...



Directly lifted from the Instagram message will sent me.


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## labor of love (Mar 22, 2019)

@Migraine can you take close up shots of the edge? I can’t see where the cladding ends and the core steel begins in any of those pics at all.


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## Migraine (Mar 22, 2019)

I memory serves, I think there might be a reference to the fact there's only a very small amount of exposed core steel on this style of knife in the maintenance videos on Will's website.

I'm not in a position to check right now.


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## Migraine (Mar 22, 2019)

labor of love said:


> @Migraine can you take close up shots of the edge? I can’t see where the cladding ends and the core steel begins in any of those pics at all.



I tried last night but my phone camera is wank. I'll have a go with the girl's one.


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## milkbaby (Mar 22, 2019)

ian said:


> Just curious:
> Say I want to make a knife with a lamination line that has dramatic, artful wobbles, like that Carter knife referenced above. How do I do it?



Sorry we're going a little off-topic here, but a quick answer is that forging causes variations in the layers. If each layer was totally even in thickness, then the cladding would just follow the geometry of the grind. It still follows the grind, but changes due to the forging induced variation.

Below is a Timothy Johnson/Carter Hopkins collaboration. I believe it's prelaminated Vtoku2 (you can get it in the US from Bladegallery, in the EU should be available from Dictum and Workshop Heaven?), and Tim just cold forged/hammered it in the annealed state to get the variation in the cladding. I remember asking him about it somewhere, but I can't find the message right now.


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## Matus (Mar 22, 2019)

That looks like diffusion of carbon into the stainless cladding - the effect was optically magnified by etching.


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## labor of love (Mar 22, 2019)

Migraine said:


> I tried last night but my phone camera is wank. I'll have a go with the girl's one.


Are you happy with your purchase?


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## Mynci (Mar 22, 2019)

FYI- (Catcheside) Wills Knives are plain mild steel clad 1.2442. They are forged geometry , so the edge and centre of the knife are dramatically thinner, by forging under soft fullered power hammer dies.....core and cladding start with about the same thickness of core as cladding, or a bit less... . the core gets thinned down with the cladding , cladding more so as it yields more, forging in a power hammer keeps everything central, so you end up with a very even core/clad balance, but you wont see the core rising up high like ground knives or forged taper ground knives even, generally the more forging the thinner the core will appear..... but when the forging is done right it makes it stay very even and central, but where its thin and there are miss hammer blows, or sharp blows, or the edge is kinked and straightened during forging, thats where you might get a situation where the core is kinked and a bit of cladding crosses the edge,....quite difficult to put a divot into the edge in a power hammer unless a piece of thick scale jumps in between die and work during finishing blows, this is a very common cause of problems your discussing ..... but easily avoided by cleaning your old hard scale away from the catch pan ......


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## Migraine (Mar 22, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Are you happy with your purchase?


Literally couldn't be happier. Was just interested following the discussion.


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## YG420 (Mar 22, 2019)

My custom Catchy has some low lying cladding that is at or very near the edge towards the heel but it doesnt bother me at all. I dont have pics as the knifes with Jon getting a saya. Ive also had several katos where you can see from the choil shots that the core wasnt fully centered, kinda cocked to one side or the other. Probably wouldnt be a problem for a looooong time and im pretty sure that i wouldnt wear it down to where it would be a problem.


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## milkbaby (Mar 22, 2019)

Matus said:


> That looks like diffusion of carbon into the stainless cladding - the effect was optically magnified by etching.



Yes, there must be carbon diffusion into the cladding. I found the messages between us, it was New Jersey Steel Baron 52100 clad with 410 stainless. Tim said the pattern was produced by rounds of grinding and hammering with test etch to see what was going on with the pattern. Obviously, won't see the effect of carbon diffusion until after the HT. Ironically, he said the hardest issue was keeping the core centered while grinding LOL


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## CutFingers (Apr 1, 2019)

Sadly i don't think the on-line knife vendors really care much...I've had my share of problem knives...what I've learned is to stop listening to hype...reality is properly hardened mono steel carbon is equally good as forged/clad knives...if not better...Better heat treat, better edge retention, and absolutely zero chance of hideous overgrinds or need to grind more because of a poorly clad job.

Of course it's not say they aren't good. But designer boutique clad knives are often just pretty...a good knife doesn't need to be ornate or fancy.

With anything hand made there is going to be variation...I think I'd rather have a cheap Tosa knife...knowing that I can grind lot's of material off and get a straight knife...These very thin boutique knives as you have shown can have defects...sometimes in order to correct them you have to remove more metal...or live with it.

I will never buy a Masakage knife again...hand crafted and beautiful....but not functional enough for me.


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## labor of love (Apr 1, 2019)

I dunno I’ve never had this sorta issue before with the online vendors I order from. Not saying it couldn’t happen but if it did I certainly would be proactive about exchanging the knife.


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## McMan (Apr 1, 2019)

CutFingers said:


> Sadly i don't think the on-line knife vendors really care much...I've had my share of problem knives...what I've learned is to stop listening to hype...reality is properly hardened mono steel carbon is equally good as forged/clad knives...if not better...Better heat treat, better edge retention, and absolutely zero chance of hideous overgrinds or need to grind more because of a poorly clad job.
> 
> Of course it's not say they aren't good. But designer boutique clad knives are often just pretty...a good knife doesn't need to be ornate or fancy.
> 
> ...


Funny you should mention Masakage... It's the only j-knife I've ever had to send back due to cladding issues. The cladding was all over the edge, in multiple spots. The replacement was a beaut. Yet another example of QC...


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## labor of love (Apr 1, 2019)

Y’all aren’t talking about the Koishi line right?


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## CutFingers (Apr 1, 2019)

My knife was the Shimo line...clad knives can have problems...I'd rather have a "seconds" option than to pay a premium for the knife. But I think most first time buyers or average users aren't going to get involved.

My luck these days is big cheap carbon...the low end japanese knives are every bit as good as the expensive models. Only problem is you need to spend time thinning and honing them into something.


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## SilverSwarfer (Apr 7, 2019)

I broke out my old workhorse gyuto to shape up for some home use. I purchased this Ittosai 270mm from Korin circa 2004.

I got started on my thinning project and realized I had my work cut out for me. More than I expected. 

I spent quite a few years sharpening 80/20, with the original grind. I probably removed far less material than you’d imagine because I was never taught how to sharpen properly until I started researching and collaborating as I was exposed to better sharpeners in the past 8-10 years. 

I realize there’s not enough information for a proper answer but I’m asking- Anyway, what are the odds there’s a problem with the cladding/core instead of this being just sharpened off center for too long?


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## frank358fr (Apr 8, 2019)

Awesome knife


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## SilverSwarfer (Apr 8, 2019)

Here’s some older pics from before I started thinning.


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