# Sharp Story



## Salty dog (May 9, 2011)

I recently lent TK59 a couple knives to check out.

He sent them back sharpened as promised. When I received them I immediately felt the edge, "yeah, that's sharp". They pushed and pull cut ticket paper, "yeah, that's very sharp. So I broke out the tomatoes.

When I did my usual tests the knives performed very well. It appeared Tinh (TK) widened the right side bevels a bit very precisely. I said to myself, "I bet if I give the Masamoto a good stropping this thing might pass the "weight only test". No other knife has been able to do it.

I stropped on treated split leather, smooth leather, 1 micron boron, .5 chromium, .25 diamond, .25 boron, on balsa. I finished with naked balsa.

The video results are here...http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?1066-Sharp

Notes about the differences in our sharpening.

I tend to have less bevel toward the heel of the knife and more bevel near the tip. As I said TK's bevel was precise with a hint of the bevel decreasing on the rounded part going to the tip. It's perfect if you are a frequent rocker. That part of the blade takes a pounding. However I don't rock much which is why I keep a greater bevel in that "sweet spot" near the tip for detail work. But wow, nice job.

This is only the first time I've used one of my knives sharpened by another person. (Other than a new knife. That's 35 years folks.) It feels a little weird and I have to admit feeling a little humbled. (That doesn't happen very often. Can you tell?)


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## rockbox (May 9, 2011)

Tinh is our new sharpening champ. Totally amazing.


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## Salty dog (May 9, 2011)

I was like..."no way!" Say it isn't true!


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## rockbox (May 9, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> I was like..."no way!" Say it isn't true!



I guess when you deal with molecules for a living, you learn how to be precise. :biggrin2:


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## Cadillac J (May 9, 2011)

I would love to have someone try out my edges like this, just to get a second opinion. 

For a home cook, I think my knife and sharpening skills are far above average...but at the same time, I've never used or seen something sharpened by a Dave or the like. Not that I feel I need to get validation, as I'm very happy with my edges in both sharpness and retention, but it would be cool to see what someone else thought of them.

Way to go though TK...making us non-pros look good! vg:


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## tk59 (May 9, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback, Salty. I'm feeling relieved and a bit self-conscious... :shy: To be honest, I was sh!tting bricks wondering if the edge passed muster. That's what this forum does to you. Watching Salty's tomato vids really pushed me to a new level of knut. I'm still wondering if the edge holds up the way your normal edges would. :scared2:


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## Salty dog (May 9, 2011)

I'll do a few potatoes and try some more tomatoes. That's my rudimentery retention test.


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## MikeZ (May 9, 2011)

But can it slice thru a sweet potato smoothly without a lot of pressure or wedging...


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## EdipisReks (May 9, 2011)

i'd be worried about sharpening somebody else's knife and probably end up making the bevels less steep than i otherwise would, to make sure i didn't scratch it up. that's impressive on more than one level.


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## Salty dog (May 9, 2011)

SilverHaze420 said:


> But can it slice thru a sweet potato smoothly without a lot of pressure or wedging...



Better than any other knife I own.


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## EdipisReks (May 9, 2011)

well damn, i ran to the kitchen (glad i'm working from home, today!) and tried the test out for myself. the only one of my gyutos which passes this test is my 240 Shigifusa, which is heaviest by a fair margin. i have more work to do, i guess. every time i conquer your latest test and think i've just about eked all the performance i can out of my edges, you come up with some new goal.


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## Salty dog (May 9, 2011)

That's my problem to. It's always "what's next?"


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## JohnnyChance (May 9, 2011)

And like you mentioned in the other thread, the knife isn't a beast like a Shige. It's 177g. Well done TK!


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## stereo.pete (May 9, 2011)

TK, you've set the bar for me when it comes to my sharpening goals and as always, thanks for sharing Salty.


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## tk59 (May 9, 2011)

Thanks guys but I bet a lot of guys here can pass this test. I'm happy to join the club. Also, Salty did do some stropping. Depending on how much he did, it can have a big effect.


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## Cadillac J (May 9, 2011)

tk59 said:


> I bet a lot of guys here can pass this test. I'm happy to join the club.



Yes, but not all of us have a sweet video cam to record the glory! Great job TK. I love seeing/knowing how much everyone has progressed and refined their skills...I think that is what makes sharpening so fun and addictive.


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## Dave Martell (May 9, 2011)

I love this......it shows that there's always another level of sharp out there and it's cool that you guys are willing to share your experiences with us. I've been chasing the ultimate edge for years and I can never get closer than nipping at it's heals, it's a very elusive goal for sure that I know I'll never attain.


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## Dave Martell (May 9, 2011)

PS - The weight of the knife on the tomato (only - no movement) test that's shown here is just about as good as one can ever hope for, well besides edge retention as well, but this is a very high level of sharpness shown.


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## Adagimp (May 9, 2011)

Jenkies that's sharp!

Bravo tk and thanks for posting Salty.


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## Eamon Burke (May 10, 2011)

Eeek! That is crazy sharp! Bravo, to both you and (mostly) TK for your lighter-than-air hands. there's just no brute forcing your way to an edge like that!


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## Potato42 (May 10, 2011)

Thanks for posting this and congrats on the edge. Any chance you might fill in what you did to get it so screaming sharp Tinh?


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## Salty dog (May 10, 2011)

Good question. I've been meaning to ask. The stropping was just a 2 minute project.

Oh, and if he says something like Edge Pro I'm going to $hit.


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## JBroida (May 10, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> Good question. I've been meaning to ask. The stropping was just a 2 minute project.
> 
> Oh, and if he says something like Edge Pro I'm going to $hit.


 
haha... not going to happen... it was free hand for sure


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## rockbox (May 10, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> Good question. I've been meaning to ask. The stropping was just a 2 minute project.
> 
> Oh, and if he says something like Edge Pro I'm going to $hit.


 
That would be awesome on so many levels. Even better if he said Chef's Choice.


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## jwpark (May 10, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> Good question. I've been meaning to ask. The stropping was just a 2 minute project.
> 
> Oh, and if he says something like Edge Pro I'm going to $hit.


 
It was the Gizmo

:viking:
Jay


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## EdipisReks (May 10, 2011)

it was probably the Rachel Ray diamond fingers.


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## JBroida (May 10, 2011)

jwpark said:


> It was the Gizmo
> 
> :viking:
> Jay


 
haha


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## Mattias504 (May 10, 2011)

EdipisReks said:


> it was probably the Rachel Ray diamond fingers.


 

I mean thats not what you guys use? I've been using one of those on my honyaki for years now.


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## EdipisReks (May 10, 2011)

Mattias504 said:


> I mean thats not what you guys use? I've been using one of those on my honyaki for years now.


 
i hear that it's really great with single bevel knives.


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## RRLOVER (May 10, 2011)

Now I feel like I should have sharpened the Heiji before I sold it to him:slaphead:


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## StephanFowler (May 11, 2011)

Mattias504 said:


> EdipisReks said:
> 
> 
> > it was probably the Rachel Ray diamond fingers.
> ...


 

I don't know about using them on a knife, but I'm sure I could give her fingers something to do....


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## tk59 (May 11, 2011)

Gesshin 1k, SS 3k, Gesshin 5k, SS 12k, Gesshin 20k, Dave's strop 0.25 micron polydiamond, Dave's strop 0.125 micron cbn, unloaded HA horse leather strop. There's just so much more joy in using my hands as over using a jig or someone else's fingers even if they're Rachel's. :lol2: Stephen, you might want to check those out before you commit to using them for whatever you were intending... :chin:


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## Mattias504 (May 11, 2011)

Stephan, you filthy man...


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## StephanFowler (May 11, 2011)

Mattias504 said:


> Stephan, you filthy man...



what can I say :happy1::happy1:

:razz::razz:


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## WildBoar (May 11, 2011)

StephanFowler said:


> what can I say :happy1::happy1:
> 
> :razz::razz:


If Dave M. hears you are sweet on his Food Network honey, you will surely be banned :scared2:


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## tk59 (May 12, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> I'll do a few potatoes and try some more tomatoes. That's my rudimentery retention test.


So, what's the verdict?


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## Potato42 (May 12, 2011)

tk59 said:


> Gesshin 1k, SS 3k, Gesshin 5k, SS 12k, Gesshin 20k, Dave's strop 0.25 micron polydiamond, Dave's strop 0.125 micron cbn, unloaded HA horse leather strop. There's just so much more joy in using my hands as over using a jig or someone else's fingers even if they're Rachel's. :lol2: Stephen, you might want to check those out before you commit to using them for whatever you were intending... :chin:


 
Thanks for sharing:thumbsup:


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## Salty dog (May 12, 2011)

tk59 said:


> Gesshin 1k, SS 3k, Gesshin 5k, SS 12k, Gesshin 20k, Dave's strop 0.25 micron polydiamond, Dave's strop 0.125 micron cbn, unloaded HA horse leather strop. There's just so much more joy in using my hands as over using a jig or someone else's fingers even if they're Rachel's. :lol2: Stephen, you might want to check those out before you commit to using them for whatever you were intending... :chin:


 
Interesting. I only go up to 10K. Although I just added a Takashima that is up there somewhere. Now I'm trying to figure out what happened between your sharpening and my stropping. You would think 20k and the strops you used would do it but it didn't. (the weight test)

That would be something for your microscope. I imagine the edge got thinned out ever so slightly. I used seven stropping surfaces. I also noticed it wasn't a "toothy" edge. When slicing a tomato you could tell it was very sharp but there was some reluctance on the knife's part once the skin was pierced. It's hard to describe.


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## mainaman (May 12, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> Interesting. I only go up to 10K. Although I just added a Takashima that is up there somewhere. .


 how do you use the Takashima, does it release slurry when you sharpen on it?


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## Salty dog (May 12, 2011)

way


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## EdipisReks (May 12, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> I also noticed it wasn't a "toothy" edge. When slicing a tomato you could tell it was very sharp but there was some reluctance on the knife's part once the skin was pierced. It's hard to describe.


 
that's what i would expect. the 20k would do a very good job of applying a very fine, even scratch pattern. in my experience, toothy or glassy edges are determined by time on the stone, the strops just maximize whatever scratch pattern has been applied.


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## mainaman (May 12, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> way


 if your stone releases slurry there is no way it is higher than 6-8k at most


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## JBroida (May 12, 2011)

mainaman said:


> if your stone releases slurry there is no way it is higher than 6-8k at most


 
that is just not true at all


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## mainaman (May 12, 2011)

JBroida said:


> that is just not true at all


 If the stone releases slurry constantly, then how is that slurry broken down? Also we should not even be talking about grit on naturals , we should be talking about soft hard, because that is what determines how fine the stone will act. The harder the stone the less slurry release the more slurry breakdown the finer the edge will be.


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## Salty dog (May 12, 2011)

Jon would know. He sold it to me. (I like it BTW)

Actually, I forgot I used it before stropping. Enough to develop a small amount of mud. Very lightly and then a gentle strop. 

I also used it for the knives I sent TK. I'm still digging my teeth in it.


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## JBroida (May 12, 2011)

mainaman said:


> If the stone releases slurry constantly, then how is that slurry broken down? Also we should not even be talking about grit on naturals , we should be talking about soft hard, because that is what determines how fine the stone will act. The harder the stone the less slurry release the more slurry breakdown the finer the edge will be.


 
to some extent thats true, but also the starting grit of the stone comes into play. Likewise, you can use softer stones that release a lot of slurry with super light pressure and refine grit. I have some a number of softer finishing stones that get finishes better than 8k (some as high as ~15k). Harder stones do refine grit more quickly, but that doesnt mean it cant be done on a softer stone and the starting point does make a big difference.

Lets take an aoto for example... this is a stone that can release a lot of slurry but still breaks down and gets progressively finer as you go


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## mainaman (May 12, 2011)

JBroida said:


> to some extent thats true, but also the starting grit of the stone comes into play. Likewise, you can use softer stones that release a lot of slurry with super light pressure and refine grit. I have some a number of softer finishing stones that get finishes better than 8k (some as high as ~15k). Harder stones do refine grit more quickly, but that doesnt mean it cant be done on a softer stone and the starting point does make a big difference.
> 
> Lets take an aoto for example... this is a stone that can release a lot of slurry but still breaks down and gets progressively finer as you go


true with light pressure one can get a better refinement. The stones do not have grit levels they are all the same when you start but the ones that are harder will allow for more refinement of the slurry and thus prprovide higher level of finish. If you look at slurry of Jant soft and hard stones have the same size particles when freshly raised. Recently one of the razor guys who lives in Japan posted a nice write up on natural stones that discusses that partf of natural stones.

http://japanshave.blogspot.com/2011/03/hows-it-going.html

so what really controls how well a stone will finish is the hardness of the stone


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## tk59 (May 12, 2011)

Salty dog said:


> Interesting. I only go up to 10K. Although I just added a Takashima that is up there somewhere. Now I'm trying to figure out what happened between your sharpening and my stropping. You would think 20k and the strops you used would do it but it didn't. (the weight test)
> 
> That would be something for your microscope. I imagine the edge got thinned out ever so slightly. I used seven stropping surfaces. I also noticed it wasn't a "toothy" edge. When slicing a tomato you could tell it was very sharp but there was some reluctance on the knife's part once the skin was pierced. It's hard to describe.


 
Both knives passed the tomato test when they left my hands, although some parts of the Mizuno didn't quite make it due to the damage it sustained during testing. Under the scope, you could see some parts of the edge just weren't getting abraded evenly. The 20k does remove most of the bite to an edge (hence, it's my shaving stone). However, I'm generally able to pass the tomato test, as you showed after using the 20k, if I'm careful. I definitely pass it if I follow up with any sort of strop; loaded or unloaded. My theory is the banging around in the saya did enough misaligning of the edge that it didn't quite do it by the time the brown truck of joy got back to you.


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## Salty dog (May 12, 2011)

yep, probably so. The Mizuno for sure. That saya isn't exactly tight.


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## JBroida (May 12, 2011)

mainaman said:


> true with light pressure one can get a better refinement. The stones do not have grit levels they are all the same when you start but the ones that are harder will allow for more refinement of the slurry and thus prprovide higher level of finish. If you look at slurry of Jant soft and hard stones have the same size particles when freshly raised. Recently one of the razor guys who lives in Japan posted a nice write up on natural stones that discusses that partf of natural stones.
> 
> http://japanshave.blogspot.com/2011/03/hows-it-going.html
> 
> so what really controls how well a stone will finish is the hardness of the stone


 
i've read and discussed similar things with the sharpeners and stone companies i deal with in Japan... a lot of this is very true and the levels of refinement razor guys are looking for come more from hard stones than soft stones. That being said, the level of refinement we are talking about here is not the same. The ability of the particles to break down quickly is also part of the function. I've tested a number of stones at this point and so when i "rate" the stones, i do it more based on my relative experience of what is what. That being said, if you use hard pressure the entire time and work up a ton of mud, never releasing the pressure to refine the mud, the finish will be more coarse. Thats for sure. However, if you work up a slurry and gradually release your pressure you can get refinement on these stones (and many other softer muddy stones... aoto, hakka, etc.).

On a similar note, one of th things that makes softer muddy stones useful is that you can get a very nice even finish from them (especially on larger/wider bevels). However, this technique requires very light pressure, so you end up refining the slurry during this process too.


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## mainaman (May 12, 2011)

JBroida said:


> On a similar note, one of th things that makes softer muddy stones useful is that you can get a very nice even finish from them (especially on larger/wider bevels). However, this technique requires very light pressure, so you end up refining the slurry during this process too.


 true until you meet the limit of refinement for the stone.


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## JBroida (May 12, 2011)

mainaman said:


> true until you meet the limit of refinement for the stone.


 
Yup


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## Potato42 (May 12, 2011)

JBroida said:


> On a similar note, one of the things that makes softer muddy stones useful is that you can get a very nice even finish from them (especially on larger/wider bevels). However, this technique requires very light pressure, so you end up refining the slurry during this process too.


 
Ah that explains why I was having such a hard time with my King 800/ Aoto synthetic combo when working towards a kasumi finish. I ended up discovering after hours and hours of trying that I could only get consistent results with a light touch. Also, I had been raising a slurry with my lapping plate, but that seemed to work against me somehow. I eventually started with a more or less bare stone and allowed a good supply of water on the stone while working the knife.


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## JBroida (May 12, 2011)

Potato42 said:


> Ah that explains why I was having such a hard time with my King 800/ Aoto synthetic combo when working towards a kasumi finish. I ended up discovering after hours and hours of trying that I could only get consistent results with a light touch. Also, I had been raising a slurry with my lapping plate, but that seemed to work against me somehow. I eventually started with a more or less bare stone and allowed a good supply of water on the stone while working the knife.


 
start off harder and move to super light... let the mud do the work. In your mind you should be thinking about only sharpening using the mud... not bringing up any new stone. And with water, you can start with more, but as the mud gets thicker, add just enough water to keep the stone lubricated. Too much and you rinse away the mud you should be trying to refine and too little and it will become to sticky.


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## Potato42 (May 12, 2011)

I got a good start on the 800 king, but I kept getting:angry1: when moving to the Aoto because the nice matte haze I created would get polished right up in no time. Adding to the trouble one of the knives I was working on was a Kumagoro gyuto, and as anyone who has had one knows, those things are rust magnets. 5 minutes untouched and the cladding would be oxidized.

The only way I could keep from ruining the haze built with the 800 king was a light touch on the Aoto. Of course my technique probably isn't the best either. I still haven't been able to completely get the finish I want.


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## mainaman (May 12, 2011)

Potato42 said:


> I got a good start on the 800 king, but I kept getting:angry1: when moving to the Aoto because the nice matte haze I created would get polished right up in no time. Adding to the trouble one of the knives I was working on was a Kumagoro gyuto, and as anyone who has had one knows, those things are rust magnets. 5 minutes untouched and the cladding would be oxidized.
> 
> The only way I could keep from ruining the haze built with the 800 king was a light touch on the Aoto. Of course my technique probably isn't the best either. I still haven't been able to completely get the finish I want.


 try a natural stone it should work with no problems


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## Potato42 (May 12, 2011)

I'd love to, but no budget for them.

Next time I have a go at it I'll try and post something about the experience. Maybe even pics or video.


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## Eamon Burke (May 12, 2011)

As far as pressure is involved, it is worth noting that when you apply great pressure to the blade, the steel is abrading the stone. When you are just resting and sliding the knife on the slurry, after the scratch pattern matches the abilities of the grit, the slurry will also abrade the stone, helping to prevent that kind of fragmentary scratching that was mentioned.


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## Mattias504 (May 12, 2011)

Makes sense.


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## maxim (May 12, 2011)

I think both Jon and mainaman is right  !
mainaman just have more experience with razors where its very hard to get finer grit from softer stone doe to small sharpening aria. I can get tomato test out from my softest Hakka and i compared scratch patterns from softest Hakka and 10k Naniwa and from Hakka they was finer but it was with a knife not a razor. 
Working with mud with knifes is right thing to do because of very quick mud breakdown. But not always with razors.
So i think Takashima can definitely go up to 15 k with knife or more its just need more refinement on the mud. And BTW i never use strop on my knifes and still can cut tomato with softest Hakka


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## tk59 (May 13, 2011)

How soft is your softest? Is it softer than superstones? I wasn't saying you need a strop but it is certainly easier to produce a properly aligned edge with a strop.


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## maxim (May 13, 2011)

No its harder then 10k superstone.


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