# Any recommendations to my collection?!



## Vancouverguy (Nov 28, 2016)

So, I hear all these talks about how good higher end naturals are and just curious on what do I look for when purchasing! 

I currently have a Chosera 1000, JNS red aoto, and JNS 6000 . + Atoma 1200, and Atoma 140. 

Stones I think I might be interested in just because: Stone from Nakayama, or a Ohira Suita... :wink: 

I'm probably gonna be sharpening some knives, Just got that Hinoura from James at K&S + Got some Shigs. 

Any other recommendations are welcome!


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## Smashmasta (Nov 28, 2016)

Vancouverguy said:


> So, I hear all these talks about how good higher end naturals are and just curious on what do I look for when purchasing!
> 
> I currently have a Chosera 1000, JNS red aoto, and JNS 6000 . + Atoma 1200, and Atoma 140.
> 
> ...



Well you got some solid steel. Let's get you some solid stones to go with. But also, what do you mean by 'higher end' - price or grit or mine, etc?

First off, Jnats at high grits are often lauded as being so good because they tend to be much more consistent than stones of lower grit. Stones of lower grit run a risk of having more 'toxic' inclusions that can screw up your steel. Shiage-to, or awasedo (finishing stone), tend to have less inclusions/be super uniform/consistent, fine grained, and fast despite being so fine grained (which also almost always means harder). Keep in mind that every stone, even within the same strata in the same mine, can behave differently.

OK, with that out of the way, anything from Nakayama are going to be waaaay to expensive for your first jnat. Ohira suita are also going to be way to expensive. Both have a rich history in this field, and thus are both highly coveted and depleted. Plus you have to contend with more experienced users in snatching up the few that pop up every now and then irate1:

Jnats also behave differently than synthetics. Synthetics for the most part (although the JNS red aoto being a prime example of mixed grits trying to mimic natural stones) are very consistent in their grit size. This means you get a very even and consistent finish, which can be a good thing, if that's what you're looking for. Many knife users, simply due to the natures of dealing with food (or other activities), find a bit of 'chaos' ie, toothiness/ not a perfectly even edge microscopically speaking, to be of practical use. Jnats provide this inherently due to them, well, not being man-made and 'perfect' They're 'naturally imperfect' in a perfect way. They allow one to put on an edge that as some feedback/bite. This is ideal when you need to rip, or tear through fiborous veggies or proteins like meat. Other high grit and harder stones can provide a very 'refined' and even edge. Some people like that too for slicing,etc when you don't want to damage the cells of whatever food your preparing.

Anyways, I say all this (which you might already know) simply to say - what you're looking for all depends (I know, the most annoying answer ever). 
What do you want? Some teeth for proteins and veggies? Or a refined edge for slicing fish and softer boneless meat? Or something else.
Answering this will help determine what to look for.

Generally, higher grits are more refined because, well, they have more abrasive particles closer together, and therefore to have 'gaps' that could create teeth. These are also more expensive - they're harder to get to physically in the mining process, and again, highly coveted. 

If by 'higher end' you mean famousness of mines, than Ohira and Nakayama are two very famous mines that produce a variety of types of stones, including shiage-to. Okudo and Shinden suita are also very famous. The thing is, don't get too caught up on the names of the mines. Plenty of suitas or other strata stones from other mines can be very usable, and cheaper!

So before I turn this into a friggin book, why don't you elaborate on what kind of edge you're looking for on those fine steels of yours. The shigs can take pretty much any edge you want. So it's up to you to find out what you want (and you can't want lots of different things, so don't worry that you have to pick one).


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## Vancouverguy (Nov 29, 2016)

Thanks for your very detailed response! I know new forum members like me always have these questions about the naturals, but generally the educated don't seem to educate us! I've been browsing on some websites such as Aframes, and JNS and looking at some stones. There's some Nakayama stones, and Ohira stones within Aframes that I was interested in playing around with and they seemed decently priced. But the good ones are probably all snatched up by the experienced folks. 

I think I would want to start off with two stones! a toothy one, and a refined one! Which one do you recommend? I am also looking for a polishing also! I know it's in a category itself. I'm probably asking for too much, but I don't really have a budget! I seem to get an amazing edge with the JNS 6000. A stone that would retain some value in it, and easy for re-sale purposes would be fantastic just in the case that I move on, or need to release some funds! That's one of the main reasons why I've named Ohira, and Nakayama becauase of their value!


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## chinacats (Nov 29, 2016)

Unless you're a straight razor or single bevel user, I'd just find something easy (not too hard or too fine particles) to use...look at Watanabe or A-Frames for some quality stones at decent prices--no, the good ones aren't all snatched up' already 

Also just noticed that Jon currently has a few in stock at JKI...I've only bought one natural from him but it was of high quality and reasonable cost.

Reading through some of this may give you a little help...

One final thought is that while you're not limiting yourself in budget that you may do better to buy a small variety of stones and figure them out and just sell what doesn't suit your steel or style of sharpening. Pick up four or five finishers...skip the midrange and just use whatever 1-2k you like. You likely won't want to use more than one stone to finish...I use a binsui (maybe 2k?) and a Takashima (maybe 5-7k?) and that is all I really will ever need...I just had to try a few before I found what suited me.

Cheers


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## bennyprofane (Nov 29, 2016)

I'd recommend an Ohira Suita, they're refined and toothy at the same time, fast for their grit level and just overall awesome. You can get a large and good one from around 250$ and up, depending on what deal you find and where you buy. I have bought most of my stones from Watanabe and got great deals from him but A-Frames has some good deals on Suitas too.


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## Vancouverguy (Nov 29, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> I'd recommend an Ohira Suita, they're refined and toothy at the same time, fast for their grit level and just overall awesome. You can get a large and good one from around 250$ and up, depending on what deal you find and where you buy. I have bought most of my stones from Watanabe and got great deals from him but A-Frames has some good deals on Suitas too.



When you're looking for a Ohira Suita, what exactly are you trying to look for? There's just so many options to choose from, such as color. How do you determine higher quality vs lower quality. And should I buy one that's softer?


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## ynot1985 (Nov 29, 2016)

One thing to note is that the Japanese are perfectist who loves aesthetics.

colour, size, lines , patterns (karusu) will all determine the price of a stone.

two stones may be very similar in properties but if any one has a line or imperfect shape (e.g koppa), it may severely reduce it's price.

I would say for kitchen knives, a softer stone is preferred

It's hard to determine the quality of a stone until you have tried it as sometimes the ugliest may in fact be the best one and vice versa


Vancouverguy said:


> When you're looking for a Ohira Suita, what exactly are you trying to look for? There's just so many options to choose from, such as color. How do you determine higher quality vs lower quality. And should I buy one that's softer?


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## bennyprofane (Nov 29, 2016)

If you get one from a trusted vendor it should be good. Lots of purple renge (small dots) are said to be good but lack of it don't mean it's bad. If they are very hard (usually Okudo Suita and not Ohira) or if you really want to speed things up, you can use your Atoma 1200 to create some slurry. Ohira Suitas are usually softer than the really hard razor stones like Asagis and can work without a Nagura or Atoma.


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## panda (Nov 29, 2016)

get a coarse stone


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## YG420 (Nov 29, 2016)

panda said:


> get a coarse stone


+1


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## Mute-on (Nov 29, 2016)

I bought an Ohira Suita from JNS rated at 3.5 on Maxim's scale. It's amazing. Fast and very fine. 

A coarse stone would be useful too, depending on your requirements. Practical, but not nearly as much fun to own and test a range of knives on as a finisher. 

All of the advice above is on the mark with the possible exception of using an Atoma to create slurry, but that's another matter. 

I say go for a nice finisher and then look at the others later.


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## Krassi (Nov 29, 2016)

Hiho!

Well the Ohira Suita is always my one and only recommendation.
Finishing Natural stones beat synthetics any time of the day

A Nakayama is fun but with kitchenknifes and sharpening freehand its hard to get the full potential and big ones are very silly expensive (DON'T try your luck with auctions if you dondt know what you buy.. you will be very sad and buy lots of construction waste )

The medium and coarse range of stones is more for fun and hobby
the natural stones are mostly not so aggressiv and fast as synthetics and remove less material resulting in less scratches.

As a medium A good Aizu is amazing and i sold my JNS red Aoto because the Aizu is way more fun and not so scratchy.
Watanabe mentioned that i should try his Ai2000 instead because it makes a much better result.. so i will compare it at the weekend (thanks to Zetieum!)


For the coarse stones i like my cheap Thai Orange and grey Binsu (around 800 and 1500 grit) as a JNS1000 Substitute.
they remove less material are slower and you can jump back from the JNS1000 to the Binsu.

If the result of the 1000 stone is not good, then the best Ohira will not make it better.
soo you never need naturals they are just more fun and the Natural stone finishers are unique.


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## Vangelis (Nov 29, 2016)

If you have never used a JNAT, I will suggest you to buy an aiwatani koppa. I have two aiwatanis and are really great stones (one full and one koppa). Really fast and fine + very beautiful. I am using my koppa as my touch up stone and it has worked nicely with all my knives. 

So you can try a nice JNAT without spending an arm and a leg.

Best
V


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## Krassi (Nov 29, 2016)

+1 on a Aiiwatani!
very good beginner stones! and not expensive like a good Ohira.

the price will mostly multiply if the stone has brick size (205x75mm), no broken edges, thickness over 40mm, no lines and looks (karasu and other stuff)


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## Vancouverguy (Nov 29, 2016)

I'll be looking for a Aizu + Ohira suita in the future then it sounds like. I do have experience with some naturals from a friend, which motivated me to get my own! 

There are many recommendations for a courser stone, what do you mean by courser stone!? Like a 1000-2000? Aizu, Aoto, or Hakka?

Again, with my intentions of the stone retaining value for easy re-sale purposes!


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## Smashmasta (Nov 29, 2016)

Vancouverguy said:


> I'll be looking for a Aizu + Ohira suita in the future then it sounds like. I do have experience with some naturals from a friend, which motivated me to get my own!
> 
> There are many recommendations for a courser stone, what do you mean by courser stone!? Like a 1000-2000? Aizu, Aoto, or Hakka?
> 
> Again, with my intentions of the stone retaining value for easy re-sale purposes!



Re: resale value - I'd say there are two main groups - collectors and practical users. Collectors buy for aesthetics, rarity, and name (they may occasionally use them, too, of course). Practical sharpeners care less for looks, names, etc, and just want something that works. Most users here fall somewhere on that spectrum, but certainly a mix of each, haha. What I'm trying to say is, don't worry too much about resale value when buying a stone - there's likely someone somewhere looking for what you have. Given the fact that stone prices are increasing year over year, mainly because they're not a renewable resource in the normal context, etc, some of your stones may actually increase in value slightly, as long as you don't damage it or whatever. Exploring the Jnat club link posted earlier, you'll read about just what I'm talking about.

Stones for knives are typically broken into 3 main categories in grit value and use (it gets way more complicated for swords):
Ara-to - Coarsest stones meant for chip repair and bevel setting (in reality, synthetics have taken over in efficiency and practicality for these purposes). It's important to remember that there is no official organization that oversees all this, so you'll see people classify ara-to in grit anywhere from 120-600 or 800 to 120-1000, etc. Since I like the power of 10, I casually say around 1000 is the top limit, but it seems most people say 800. Examples of such stones would be a variety of Omura, coarser examples of Natsuya, iyoto and numata, but there aren't very many coarse stones out there, but a lot that fall into the 1000-2000 range (which is why I like to say ara-to end closer to 1000 - ara-to selection becomes very limited without including these, but this is just my opinion...)

Next is Naka-to. There are a lot of stones in this group and make up a good portion of a well rounded collection. Again, you'll find definitions of grit range from 800/1000-3k/5k, etc. Mainly 800-3k. These stones will be able to finish a lot of knives in one's kitchen, especially if one primarily uses softer steels since soft steel can't hold an edge that higher grit stones yield. These stones generally refine the edge bevel and put on a pre-finish edge (if you continue to go higher in grit), or finish the edge, but are not generally used for chip repair (would take forever). Examples of these stones would be: more traditional aizu, iyoto, numata, binsui, ikarashi, aoto (also today's 'aoto' - atagoyama monzento of different colors), some hakka, etc.

Shiage-to stones are the last stage. Let's say they range 3k+ (the sky is the limit). Because there are so many stones that fall within this range, I like to say shiage-to start at 5k (but again, that's JUST ME, and I'm probably going to get yelled at for thinking like this, haha), but I understand the lower limit. Not the biggest deal, as you'll begin to understand what 'fine' vs 'less fine' is like. Anyways, these stones are for imparting the final edge on your knife, and polishing. These are also the most expensive stones for a number of reasons - fine, hard stones, are at the bottom layers of mines (it helps to think of stone layers like they were different density liquids that have settled and compressed over millions of years - the heavier stuff settles to the bottom and gets further compacted by the weight of the other layers above it), and are harder to get to (generally - you have to remember that the ground moves and forces are at battle, etc, etc). They're also heavy, so transporting them costs more. A worker can only carry so many at one time, companies charge by weight, etc. They also usually contain the patterns that everyone loves - karasu, renge, etc, and colors, kiita, shiro, etc, in their most glorious examples. People could argue all day about whether these attributes are helpful or not, but it doesn't really matter because they cost more simply because of the market says they cost more. Examples of such stones are suita (ohira, okudo, etc), most tomae, uchigumori, etc. 


Things are also relative. If you wanted to finish with some teeth, you'd finish at a coarser stone, but you wouldn't call it a shiage-to or awase-do (fine stone). You can finish at whatever you want, and that last stone is simply your finishing stone. Therefore, coarser is also relative, as is finer. Use the ara-to, naka-to, and shiage-to grit breakdown as a guide. Once you collect a number of stones, these categories will become clearer overtime, and things will become easier to comprehend (usually, with some major caveats, haha, trust me). If I were to mention to someone to use a 'coarse' stone, it would like be in the 1-2ish range, maybe even a toothy 3k aoto. Sorry to say, but this whole thing isn't perfectly linear and clear. 

Hope this helps.


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## Vancouverguy (Nov 29, 2016)

Thanks for everyone's inputs! 

I have spent some time browsing Watanabe and got myself a Nakayama Tomae probably not the best first natural, ( I do have a uchigomori bench stone which is excellent!) and I'll be searching for a Ohira Suita! Seems like I'll spend some time reading the Jnat club post also but the 101 pages seemed to discourage me a tad bit, but I'm sure the wealth of information is very rich there. 

As in terms of wealth, Thanks to 



Smashmasta said:


> Re: resale value - I'd say there are two main groups - collectors and practical users. Collectors buy for aesthetics, rarity, and name (they may occasionally use them, too, of course). Practical sharpeners care less for looks, names, etc, and just want something that works. Most users here fall somewhere on that spectrum, but certainly a mix of each, haha. What I'm trying to say is, don't worry too much about resale value when buying a stone - there's likely someone somewhere looking for what you have. Given the fact that stone prices are increasing year over year, mainly because they're not a renewable resource in the normal context, etc, some of your stones may actually increase in value slightly, as long as you don't damage it or whatever. Exploring the Jnat club link posted earlier, you'll read about just what I'm talking about.
> 
> Stones for knives are typically broken into 3 main categories in grit value and use (it gets way more complicated for swords):
> Ara-to - Coarsest stones meant for chip repair and bevel setting (in reality, synthetics have taken over in efficiency and practicality for these purposes). It's important to remember that there is no official organization that oversees all this, so you'll see people classify ara-to in grit anywhere from 120-600 or 800 to 120-1000, etc. Since I like the power of 10, I casually say around 1000 is the top limit, but it seems most people say 800. Examples of such stones would be a variety of Omura, coarser examples of Natsuya, iyoto and numata, but there aren't very many coarse stones out there, but a lot that fall into the 1000-2000 range (which is why I like to say ara-to end closer to 1000 - ara-to selection becomes very limited without including these, but this is just my opinion...)
> ...



I can truely see that theres a lot of information and detail which determines the price of a stone! interesting to see that there are so many factors in determining the value of a stone.


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## Vancouverguy (Nov 29, 2016)

Any reviews on Tsushima Kuro Nagura bench stone ? I'm looking forward to what people have to say about this. It seems to be decently priced, and the feedback on JNAT is very good. What do you guys think as one of my first stones?


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## bennyprofane (Nov 29, 2016)

I have also been debating getting a Tsushima but the reviews on here are mixed:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...SUSHIMA-vs-Ato?p=418371&viewfull=1#post418371


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## Vancouverguy (Nov 29, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> I have also been debating getting a Tsushima but the reviews on here are mixed:
> 
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...SUSHIMA-vs-Ato?p=418371&viewfull=1#post418371



Thanks to the link!

It looks like it does not leave a nice contrast in finish, but does produce a nice edge.. I'll pass on it probably.... But at the price points for a natural, + the size is amazing, which made me curious. :scratchhead:


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## bennyprofane (Nov 29, 2016)

Yeah, what bothers me about dark stones is that you don't see how much steel they remove, so hard to say how fast they are. But you could consider the Khao Men instead, it's quite nice and even cheaper.


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## Vancouverguy (Nov 30, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Yeah, what bothers me about dark stones is that you don't see how much steel they remove, so hard to say how fast they are. But you could consider the Khao Men instead, it's quite nice and even cheaper.



Very interesting stone. I wonder why is this stone not as popular as the rest? such as an Aizu/ Aoto around that grit range? IT seems to have a lot of positive reviews for a cheap price.


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## bennyprofane (Nov 30, 2016)

The Khao Men is a Thai stone and is relatively new on the scene... The Thai Binsuis are also quite nice.


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## ynot1985 (Nov 30, 2016)

I guess this is one of the reasons why a kiita or a light colour stones are so sought after. It's a lot easily to see mud and metal shavings form as you sharpen which makes it more user friendly.

I guess aotos have this aura that the good one of the past are good enough to finish on (just ask badgertooth) but from most people I have spoken to, those harder and finer stones have not been available for almost 30 years and what's left these days are the softer and coarser stuff


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## Badgertooth (Nov 30, 2016)

Vancouverguy said:


> I'll be looking for a Aizu + Ohira suita in the future then it sounds like. I do have experience with some naturals from a friend, which motivated me to get my own!
> 
> There are many recommendations for a courser stone, what do you mean by courser stone!? Like a 1000-2000? Aizu, Aoto, or Hakka?
> 
> Again, with my intentions of the stone retaining value for easy re-sale purposes!



Aizu and you'll have no trouble reselling it, not that you'd want to, they're awesome


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## Badgertooth (Nov 30, 2016)

Vancouverguy said:


> Any reviews on Tsushima Kuro Nagura bench stone ? I'm looking forward to what people have to say about this. It seems to be decently priced, and the feedback on JNAT is very good. What do you guys think as one of my first stones?



For a more enthusiastic review. I think they're awesome and produce some incredibly aggressive edges.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?t=26539


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