# A Paean to the Cerax / Ouka 3k



## cotedupy (Jul 7, 2021)

The very first (water) stone I got was just dreamy, but I was never quite sure exactly what it was:







A bit of internet research, and some probable-but-not-100% confirmations from experts here led me into believing it was a Suehiro Cerax Combi. But whatever it was, it was excellent.

Eventually I'd grow to love the King 1200 just a little more than its 1k side, but the 3k part of it... oh my! Just a perfect stone; incredibly easy to use, good for polishing, muddy but not overly so, quick but not brutish, keen but bite-y. It sat square in the middle of every Aristotelian Golden Mean you could think of. And when it dished, it did so... elegantly... still sharpening perfectly right up until the point at which, with a few passes on a diamond plate, it would revert to nascent flatness with the minimum of fuss.

Over time neophilia led me to purchase and try various alternatives, but none of them would ever steal my heart away from the little yellow combi (though by now she grew frail and thin). Always there for me when I needed that ideal edge quickly. Always ready to help when I'd f***ed up an experiment going from 800 grit to a translucent ark. And so it was with some trepidation that a few weeks ago I gave it away to a friend who didn't have a stone for her own knives, and ordered myself a new Cerax 3k.

But when I received it today, the alarm bells rang...






Of course the stone was new _for me - _I'd just unwrapped it. But why was it new _for them_? How on earth had they possibly improved it?! I hoped to god this wasn't going to be like the last time someone served me their 'interpretation of a Negroni'. Please, please, please... Do Not F*** With The Classics.

But thankfully whoever is in charge of innovation at Suehiro is either admirably lazy, or recognises well a winning formula. With the first stroke I could tell that the stone was still perfect in every conceivable way.

Having it back in my permasoak bucket feels like having Batman on speed dial.


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## branwell (Jul 7, 2021)

Awesome write up. So fun to read. Got one of these on my list to try.


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## applepieforbreakfast (Jul 7, 2021)

branwell said:


> Awesome write up. So fun to read. Got one of these on my list to try.



Just ordered one.
Only $45 on Amazon.





Amazon.com: Suehiro Long Seller Ouka3000DN Grit #3000 206x73x23mm without Base F/S : Tools & Home Improvement


Amazon.com: Suehiro Long Seller Ouka3000DN Grit #3000 206x73x23mm without Base F/S : Tools & Home Improvement



smile.amazon.com


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## branwell (Jul 7, 2021)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> Just ordered one.



TY for link. Ordered


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## Walla (Jul 7, 2021)

Quite like the suehiro 3k as well...my first intro was with a combination stone as well...

Take care

Jeff


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## cotedupy (Jul 7, 2021)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> Just ordered one.
> Only $45 on Amazon.
> 
> 
> ...





branwell said:


> TY for link. Ordered



Good work guys! I can't imagine anyone regretting that purchase .


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## KingShapton (Jul 8, 2021)

Really well written. It sounds a bit like a deep love affair, that may seem strange to one or the other reader, but I can understand that very well myself.


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## Dominick Maone (Jul 8, 2021)

Slightly cheaper at MTC with the 20% off and if you get to over $100 for free shipping. I would much rather support MTC, they are super nice. 








Suehiro New Cerax #3000 Knife Sharpening Stone


Shop Japanese knives, knife sharpening stones, Japanese tableware, kitchenware, restaurant supplies and equipments, take out containers, sushi and ramen supplies




mtckitchen.com


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## M1k3 (Jul 9, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> Slightly cheaper at MTC with the 20% off and if you get to over $100 for free shipping. I would much rather support MTC, they are super nice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OP is in Australia so definitely go for the free shipping! Can't believe how much USPS charges to ship to there.


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## ModRQC (Jul 9, 2021)

Ouka is a tremendously good stone. SG500-Ouka is one of the best progression for any decent steel in the kitchen. Cerax 320-Ouka is probably the easiest progression for a working kasumi from coarse scratches. Ouka is excellent for touch ups. It's a fast stone that won't clog easily, and a difficult one to pin with the caveats of its lot because - @cotedupy said it best - of its elegance with dispatching them.


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## cotedupy (Jul 9, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> OP is in Australia so definitely go for the free shipping! Can't believe how much USPS charges to ship to there.



Weird isn't it! I send stuff to the US quite often and it seems to cost me a small fraction of what USPS would to send the same thing back (like 1/5th the price).


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## cotedupy (Jul 9, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Ouka is a tremendously good stone. SG500-Ouka is one of the best progression for any decent steel in the kitchen. Cerax 320-Ouka is probably the easiest progression for a working kasumi from coarse scratches. Ouka is excellent for touch ups. It's a fast stone that won't clog easily, and a difficult one to pin with the caveats of its lot because - @cotedupy said it best - of its elegance with dispatching them.



Good to hear it gets the love from the experts too!

For a while I felt like I was clearly missing something, or not sharpening properly... as stone after stone I tried at a similar grit just wasn't as good as my tatty old combi. Which came in an unmarked cardboard box, and I bought because it was the only stone in the shop. It was only after I gave up trying to find others as good, that I found out I'd got lucky and it was a Cerax. And you've pointed out another of my favourite things, which I forgot to mention: it simply doesn't ever clog .

Good to know about the Cerax 320 too; I've got a great coarse stone for removing material, but have been thinking about getting a posher one for beginning kasumi &c. Other I was thinking about was the King 300, don't know if you have any thoughts/experience on how they'd compare...?


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## WiriWiri (Jul 9, 2021)

Great stuff @cotedupy - beautifully written and utterly convincing. I certainly don’t need another mid-grit stone, but I can’t help but be tempted by that paean to the Ouka. Want.

A sense of increasing guttedness is also dawning on me. It seems we lived literally around the corner from each other for years, paths likely crossing more than a few times, I never got a chance to enslave you as my talented knife wallah build a friendship and learn from your skills. Stockwell would have been fine, but you had to move to bloody Australia! Let that be a lesson to lazy International lurkers I guess - don’t airily assume that KKF is a place solely for knife nutters in North America, for it is for blade-obsessed weirdo real people everwhere, Probably needs work as a slogan tbh

Still, I wasn‘t half as lucky with my first whetstones as you. This was the pre You-Tube tutorial era and I started off with a horrible Minosharp 220 and a cheap combo stone, likely one of those narrow King things working back (this was 25+ years ago)!) The Minosharp was horrible even for a low-grit stone - an experience somewhat akin to painfully dragging your knife on a glass and smeg-encrusted slab of paving stone in a pub beer garden. And the King was a narrow strip of slow-working softness that seemed to do next to nothing. I fully admit that I aborted my early sharpening attempts more than a few times, squinting forlornly at the A4 instructions (with dubious line drawings) in the whetstone box and lacking confidence that I was doing the right thing. In hindsight, I know now that the Globals that I had then are a pig to sharpen/deburr, and that the R2 and other Powder steel blades I subsequently moved to were a bad match for those stones.

Salvation for me came in the form of a Chosera 2k many years later. This thing Immediately felt different, creamy and smooth, even the sound seemed to make me feel in tune with what I was trying to do . And it worked despite me using basically the same crummy technique as those early, abortIve attempts, the blade actually becoming sharp. Cogs clicked, pennies dropped, it all suddenly began to make sense,

I‘m still no great sharpener, but I can totally understand that loyalty towards your first stone love


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## dafox (Jul 9, 2021)

I just bought one, bunch of enablers around here!
Looking forward to using it in a kasumi progression and comparing it to a Gesshin 4k and SG 3 and 4k for tomato and pepper cutting edges.


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## cotedupy (Jul 9, 2021)

WiriWiri said:


> Great stuff @cotedupy - beautifully written and utterly convincing. I certainly don’t need another mid-grit stone, but I can’t help but be tempted by that paean to the Ouka. Want.
> 
> A sense of increasing guttedness is also dawning on me. It seems we lived literally around the corner from each other for years, paths likely crossing more than a few times, I never got a chance to enslave you as my talented knife wallah build a friendship and learn from your skills. Stockwell would have been fine, but you had to move to bloody Australia! Let that be a lesson to lazy International lurkers I guess - don’t airily assume that KKF is a place solely for knife nutters in North America, for it is for blade-obsessed weirdo real people everwhere, Probably needs work as a slogan tbh
> 
> ...



I'm afraid that even now you wouldn't think me anywhere near talented to enough to bother enslaving me. I'm better at pubs, so if the Australian government ever get round to vaccinating anyone, then at some point I'll come back to visit and we can do that before progression on to youtube stardom 




KingShapton said:


> Really well written. It sounds a bit like a deep love affair, that may seem strange to one or the other reader, but I can understand that very well myself.



Indeed... perhaps as much a _billet doux _as a paean.




dafox said:


> I just bought one, bunch of enablers around here!
> Looking forward to using it in a kasumi progression and comparing it to a Gesshin 4k and SG 3 and 4k for tomato and pepper cutting edges.



Smart move! I must remember to get in touch with Suehiro to start claiming my commission.


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## ModRQC (Jul 9, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Good to hear it gets the love from the experts too!



I wish! Alas… if not everybody who answered here so far are better than I, then surely they’re no worse. 

Can’t compare Cerax 320 and King 300. But I think King 300 costs around 35$ CAD on Amazon so… I guess I COULD get one as soon as I can.


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## inferno (Jul 9, 2021)

i liked the ouka for a while. then i stopped liking it and sold it.
edge was just as my glass 3k. speed about the same.
kasumi always scratchy.
the suehiro green 8k creates a non scratchy better kasumi finish and the glass is much much more practical since i dont need to soak it.
so it had to go.


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## ModRQC (Jul 9, 2021)

inferno said:


> i liked the ouka for a while. then i stopped liking it and sold it.
> edge was just as my glass 3k. speed about the same.
> kasumi always scratchy.
> the suehiro green 8k creates a non scratchy better kasumi finish and the glass is much much more practical since i dont need to soak it.
> so it had to go.



Makes sense.


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## zizirex (Jul 9, 2021)

inferno said:


> *i liked the ouka for a while. then i stopped liking it and sold it.
> edge was just as my glass 3k. speed about the same.*
> kasumi always scratchy.
> the suehiro green 8k creates a non scratchy better kasumi finish and the glass is much much more practical since i dont need to soak it.
> so it had to go.


Very true, i pick Ouka if i want to polish since it's easier to do Kasumi on Ouka.
But for touch up, SG3K is easier since it's S&G and harder make it easier for proper micro bevel.


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## branwell (Jul 9, 2021)

Ouka came. Tried it on some AS and Germans.

Love love love the feel. If the edge works out in use, I'll definitely be adding this stone to my goto selection.
Its fast. 
Harder than I was expecting. 
Cleans off almost fully with palm of hand. 
While its advertised as a soaker, it will hold water after only a minute or two submerged. Not sure how the feel or performance will change after a day or two in water.

One complaint. The fixing stone that came with is poop raw. Its got sharp edges and semi proud partials that gouge the Ouka making the Ouka feel bad to sharpen on. Running the fixing stone over a 140 diamond plate to resurface it and chamfer the edges fixed it. Works well after that.


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## inferno (Jul 9, 2021)

its not a bad stone though imo. 
its just that the glass 3k creates an identical edge. without the soaking.

and the 8k green is better for kasumi.


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## inferno (Jul 9, 2021)

branwell said:


> Ouka came. Tried it on some AS and Germans.
> 
> Love love love the feel. If the edge works out in use, I'll definitely be adding this stone to my goto selection.
> Its fast.
> ...



it also takes a week to dry so its definitely not a splash and go stone at least


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## ModRQC (Jul 9, 2021)

branwell said:


> Ouka came. Tried it on some AS and Germans.
> 
> Love love love the feel. If the edge works out in use, I'll definitely be adding this stone to my goto selection.
> Its fast.
> ...



The fine Nagura from Cerax is pretty useless. The rough one they send with lower grits works quite well though. Used to use it on NP800, Cerax 700, KDS 1200. But really any stone of those grits take well to Atoma 140. I also use the Atoma on Ouka without a problem - doesn't change its behavior.

You'll want to soak Ouka more than a few minutes when you'll want to do polish work I believe. Doesn't feel as nice for sharpening without a proper soak, but is indeed usable with a short soak, and in fact almost usable S&G.


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## zizirex (Jul 9, 2021)

Atoma 140 doesn't work really well on Karasu 9K and Morihei 12K though. I have a small red DMT to create a slurry, works way better for these stones.


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## ModRQC (Jul 9, 2021)

zizirex said:


> Atoma 140 doesn't work really well on Karasu 9K and Morihei 12K though. I have a small red DMT to create a slurry, works way better for these stones.



If you ask me even Morihei 4K is not so receptive with the Atoma 140. I now resurface it with the 4K side of my Imanishi combo, they get along better but it’s still out of having anything better…


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## cotedupy (Jul 10, 2021)

branwell said:


> Ouka came. Tried it on some AS and Germans.
> 
> Love love love the feel. If the edge works out in use, I'll definitely be adding this stone to my goto selection.
> Its fast.
> ...



I was pretty sure you'd like B! I think we have quite similar tastes in stuff.

I didn't used to permasoak mine originally, and yeah - I seem to remember it working brilliantly then too. I do now just because I find it convenient; I've got all my soakers sitting in the bucket next to where I sharpen and always ready to go . 

I was wondering about that stone that feels like a sugar cube. What's it for then? I've used it yet, as the stone doesn't need slurry raising, and that seems much coarse anyway. (My combi didn't come with one, and did just fine without!)


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## Grayswandir (Jul 10, 2021)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> Just ordered one.
> Only $45 on Amazon.
> 
> 
> ...



Someone on this sub told me to buy the Suehiro Ouka about a month ago (I needed a stone to bridge the gap between 1K and 6K) and I took their advice. I was buying it for honing straight razors, and I'm really glad I bought it. The Suehiro Ouka is a wonderful stone, the feedback and feel of the stone is just dreamy, creamy, and very satisfying. I got on Amazon for less then $40 bucks!






Amazon.com: Suehiro whetstone, Finishing soaking stone #3000: Ouka 3000-35, Stone and Nagura / 7.20 x 2.43 x 0.78" : Tools & Home Improvement


Amazon.com: Suehiro whetstone, Finishing soaking stone #3000: Ouka 3000-35, Stone and Nagura / 7.20 x 2.43 x 0.78" : Tools & Home Improvement



www.amazon.com





It's slightly smaller then a full-size stone, but is perfect for straight razors (and is still perfectly acceptable size for knife work as well).

Whoever told me to buy the Suehiro, thank you for the great advice.


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## Grayswandir (Jul 10, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Good to hear it gets the love from the experts too!
> 
> For a while I felt like I was clearly missing something, or not sharpening properly... as stone after stone I tried at a similar grit just wasn't as good as my tatty old combi. Which came in an unmarked cardboard box, and I bought because it was the only stone in the shop. It was only after I gave up trying to find others as good, that I found out I'd got lucky and it was a Cerax. And you've pointed out another of my favourite things, which I forgot to mention: it simply doesn't ever clog .
> 
> Good to know about the Cerax 320 too; I've got a great coarse stone for removing material, but have been thinking about getting a posher one for beginning kasumi &c. Other I was thinking about was the King 300, don't know if you have any thoughts/experience on how they'd compare...?


I have the King 300, it's a good stone, I've used it for all sorts of things, from fixing broken tips to lapping old barber hones. You can't really beat it for the price. Now that I know Cerax makes a 320, I'll probably pick one up when I have some extra cash lying around. Right now I really need an Atoma diamond plate for lapping and flattening my stones, among other things.


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## Grayswandir (Jul 10, 2021)

branwell said:


> Ouka came. Tried it on some AS and Germans.
> 
> Love love love the feel. If the edge works out in use, I'll definitely be adding this stone to my goto selection.
> Its fast.
> ...


The nagura dressing stone that comes with it isn't great, but it beats a blank I guess. You can pick up a King 8K nagura stone for less then $15 bucks on amazon, and you can either use to it dress your stones, or use the slurry to polish your edges. I do use the the little nagura that came with the Suehiro, but you have to get rid of the rough/sharp edges so it doesn't accidentally dig into the face of your stone. You can also pick up an Atoma slurry plate (a small 3"x2" Atoma affixed to a thick piece of oak) for around $25 bucks at Chef Knives to go.

Make sure you give it the once over before using it, just to be safe. You don't want any jagged edges gauging your stone. I went with the 1200 grit Atoma, but you can also pick up a 400 grit or a coarser 140 grit. I hit the edges with my Foredom tool, and sealed the wood with some shellac. It's a good compromise until I can pick up a full size Atoma.


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## cotedupy (Jul 10, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> Someone on this sub told me to buy the Suehiro Ouka about a month ago (I needed a stone to bridge the gap between 1K and 6K) and I took their advice. I was buying it for honing straight razors, and I'm really glad I bought it. The Suehiro Ouka is a wonderful stone, the feedback and feel of the stone is just dreamy, creamy, and very satisfying. I got on Amazon for less then $40 bucks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha! I think that might’ve been me too... Need some advice on a stone...

Glad you like!


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## KingShapton (Jul 10, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> You can also pick up an Atoma slurry plate (a small 3"x2" Atoma affixed to a thick piece of oak) for around $25 bucks at Chef Knives to go.


This mini diamond plate also works great for creating slurry. In addition, it is really inexpensive and easy to hold on to when rubbed over a stone.



https://www.knifecenter.com/item/EZLK010/EZE-LAP-Blue-Superfine-1200-Grit-Stone-Only


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## Grayswandir (Jul 10, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Haha! I think that might’ve been me too... Need some advice on a stone...
> 
> Glad you like!


I thought it might be you, but I was too lazy to go back and look for the thread. Thank you for the wonderful recommendation. The Suehiro stone is really great, I love the way it feels. I don't have a single regret about buying it. Another forum member recommended I buy the King Ice Bear 4K, a synthetic made to mimic the feel of natural Jnat stones, but by the time he chimed in on our conversation, I had already bought the Suehiro (and I'm glad I did). I'm still curious about the Ice Bear, but it's something I'll probably check out later on down the road, just for kicks.

Now I've been looking at the Cerax 8K stone. I wonder if it's as good as the Naniwa 8K Snow White? Since buying the Suehiro, I've also picked up a Shapton Pro 12K stone (Kuromaku). The Shapton is really nice, but the surface needed to be dressed before first use. It scratched up one of my straight razor blades right out of the box. I was surprised the Shapton didn't come ready to use straight out of the box. The Suehiro was perfect right out of the box.

After a gentle lapping with my little Atoma 1200, the Shapton is now as smooth as a baby's butt and puts a ridiculous mirror polish on my straight razors.

Thanks again, now I have another quality whetstone manufacturer that I can trust.


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## Grayswandir (Jul 10, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> This mini diamond plate also works great for creating slurry. In addition, it is really inexpensive and easy to hold on to when rubbed over a stone.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.knifecenter.com/item/EZLK010/EZE-LAP-Blue-Superfine-1200-Grit-Stone-Only



Atoma makes a little blue diamond plate like that as well, but it's too expensive for the size ($40). The plate you linked to is a real steal for $12. I bet in comes in handy.


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## branwell (Jul 13, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I can't imagine anyone regretting that purchase .



Done a far amount of sharpening on the Ouka now. Totally love it. Haven't been this excited by a stone since I got my first Nubatama Platinum.


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## KingShapton (Jul 13, 2021)

branwell said:


> Done a far amount of sharpening on the Ouka now. Totally love it. Haven't been this excited by a stone since I got my first Nubatama Platinum.


Sometimes the good is so close that you overlook it for all the other stones ...


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## branwell (Jul 13, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> Sometimes the good is so close that you overlook it for all the other stones ...



Yea, I'd been eyeing this stone for a while. I think I put off getting one because of the Rika. While I've always liked sharpening on the Rika, the edges I got never quite did it for me. At its grit level, the edge never felt as keen as I thought it should and never had the bite I like. It was fun to do slurry mixing on but as a standalone....

And yes, I know condemning a whole brand because of the experience of one stone is pretty lame 

Speaking of slurry mixing, the Ouka and Aoto are made for each other resulting in an edge that feels like one sprinkled fairy dust all over.


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## KingShapton (Jul 13, 2021)

branwell said:


> Speaking of slurry mixing, the Ouka and Aoto are made for each other resulting in an edge that feels like one sprinkled fairy dust over it.


That sounds extremely promising!


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## Grayswandir (Jul 13, 2021)

branwell said:


> Yea, I'd been eyeing this stone for a while. I think I put off getting one because of the Rika. While I've always liked sharpening on the Rika, the edges I got never quite did it for me. At its grit level, the edge never felt as keen as I thought they should be and never had the bite I like. It was fun to do slurry mixing on but as a standalone....
> 
> And yes, I know condemning a whole brand because of the experience of one stone is pretty lame
> 
> Speaking of slurry mixing, the Ouka and Aoto are made for each other resulting in an edge that feels like one sprinkled fairy dust over it.



What is the Aoto?


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## ModRQC (Jul 13, 2021)

Yeah I touched up my HSC AEB-L and Ittetsu White #1 just yesterday using it. 

I mean, I had/have fine stones that were pretty nice, and some that I really like, but this is something else. Guilty pleasure equivalent to having a piece of cake at 2 AM while the spouse is sleeping. Neither of these knives really needed a touch up yet. But more than the rest, and I just wanted to use the Ouka.

I'm even contemplating buying another Rika. Perhaps I didn't get that stone back when I had it... I looked the entire Cerax line, tempted to try some of the med grits. All this because of Ouka.

I want to buy stones everyday because of Ouka. I want to buy another Ouka (mine is dwindling fast these days) and permasoak it.

I'm sure there's a rehab center somewhere that deals specifically with Ouka addictions?


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## branwell (Jul 13, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> What is the Aoto?


An Aoto is a soft Japanese Natural stone. They are usually used standalone but prefer to use them to make slurry on other stones where you create a blend of the JNat and the synthetic to sharpen on.


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## Grayswandir (Jul 13, 2021)

branwell said:


> An Aoto is a soft Japanese Natural stone. They are usually used standalone but prefer to use them to make slurry on other stones where you create a blend of the JNat and the synthetic to sharpen on.


I have one Jnat, it's an Ohira Tomae, I think it's on the softer end of the Jnats. It's a nice stone, I've been learning on it the past month or so with straight razors.


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## applepieforbreakfast (Jul 13, 2021)

branwell said:


> While I've always liked sharpening on the Rika, the edges I got never quite did it for me. At its grit level, the edge never felt as keen as I thought it should and never had the bite I like.



This is exactly how I felt about the Shapton Pro 5k


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## Dominick Maone (Jul 22, 2021)

Can anyone compare the Ouka to the Naniwa Pro 3k?


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## branwell (Jul 23, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> Can anyone compare the Ouka to the Naniwa Pro 3k?


The Ouka is a soaker. Chosera / Pro is a splash and go.
The Ouka is medium hardness. The Chosera / Pro is hard.
The Ouka is a little faster than the Chosera / Pro.
In my opinion the Ouka has a better feel. Its creamy like the Chosera / Pro but has a little more texture going on.
The Chosera / Pro can feel a little glassy on 65 rockwell steel, the Ouka doesn't.

Which would I pick? Well, I sold my Chosera 3K a couple months ago where the Ouka is my current favorite finisher for an allround kitchen edge


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## Dominick Maone (Jul 23, 2021)

branwell said:


> The Ouka is a soaker. Chosera / Pro is a splash and go.
> The Ouka is medium hardness. The Chosera / Pro is hard.
> The Ouka is a little faster than the Chosera / Pro.
> In my opinion the Ouka has a better feel. Its creamy like the Chosera / Pro but has a little more texture going on.
> ...


Wow. That’s really saying something. Was planning on buying the Chosera, but will go with the Ouka. Thanks for the detailed reply.


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## inferno (Jul 23, 2021)

if you're gonna get a chosera, get the 2k imo. its very good and finishes at about 3k. the 800 is good too. the 1k not so much.


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## Dominick Maone (Jul 23, 2021)

inferno said:


> if you're gonna get a chosera, get the 2k imo. its very good and finishes at about 3k. the 800 is good too. the 1k not so much.


My plan is to get the best stone of every grit. I know different lines are different true grits, but I can not help myself. I don’t like the way Shapton pros feel, except the 2k and maybe 120. And I think maybe the Choseras are similar. I already have way too many stones. Looking for a 3k, and 6k to finish them out. Then again, when someone says a stone is awesome (like the ice bear 4000) I get a strong urge to try it out. So buying one of those soon even though I have a SG4K.


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## branwell (Jul 23, 2021)

inferno said:


> if you're gonna get a chosera, get the 2k imo.


Totally agree. The Pro 2k feels better than the Pro 3k as well imo.


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## branwell (Jul 23, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> ice bear 4000


I feel the IB 4K has an amazing edge, one of the best for kitchen carbons. Very keen with great bite, but its not in the same league feel wise to stones like the the Ouka.


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## Knife2meatu (Jul 24, 2021)

@branwell

Interesting thing about [my own, bought from Lee Valley] Ice Bear 4k: It's actually the 6k King (s-3 in my case) -- I got Lee Valley customer service to admit this and reimburse me due to their erroneous labeling.

To be quite fair, Lee Valley explained that they sold it as a 4k due to the somewhat loose particle grading in the King 6k; they explained the largest particles within the matrix places it roughly around the 4k mark, relative to the other stones they sell.


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## cotedupy (Jul 24, 2021)

Knife2meatu said:


> @branwell
> 
> Interesting thing about [my own, bought from Lee Valley] Ice Bear 4k: It's actually the 6k King (s-3 in my case) -- I got Lee Valley customer service to admit this and reimburse me due to their erroneous labeling.
> 
> To be quite fair, Lee Valley explained that they sold it as a 4k due to the somewhat loose particle grading in the King 6k; they explained the largest particles within the matrix places it roughly around the 4k mark, relative to the other stones they sell.



That is interesting! About a month ago @ModRQC asked a question about the King 4k and posted a link to the Lee Valley website... and I replied saying I thought they'd got the picture wrong and that it showed the 6k instead: Help Needed: Rough Times...

Clearly they got the picture 'right', but are just selling the 6k as 4k... which seems stupid. And probably a breach of Trading Standards law.


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## cotedupy (Jul 24, 2021)

branwell said:


> I feel the IB 4K has an amazing edge, one of the best for kitchen carbons. Very keen with great bite, but its not in the same league feel wise to stones like the the Ouka.



Ouka is just in a world of it's own in terms of 'feel'... you can see why I was in love! (And nice to hear I wasn't being an idiot and it's getting the seal of approval from proper pros too!)

Also - tell me about these Nubabtamas... do I need one in my life?


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## Ruso (Jul 24, 2021)

Very tempting to try, the stone sounds amazing, but not sure what use will it have. Does it replace Gesshin 2K or Rika?


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## ModRQC (Jul 24, 2021)

Knife2meatu said:


> @branwell
> 
> Interesting thing about [my own, bought from Lee Valley] Ice Bear 4k: It's actually the 6k King (s-3 in my case) -- I got Lee Valley customer service to admit this and reimburse me due to their erroneous labeling.
> 
> To be quite fair, Lee Valley explained that they sold it as a 4k due to the somewhat loose particle grading in the King 6k; they explained the largest particles within the matrix places it roughly around the 4k mark, relative to the other stones they sell.



Thanks for that. So I won't be buying it with them. This very sounds like BS.


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## branwell (Jul 24, 2021)

Knife2meatu said:


> Interesting thing about [my own, bought from Lee Valley] Ice Bear 4k: It's actually the 6k King (s-3 in my case) -- I got Lee Valley customer service to admit this and reimburse me due to their erroneous labeling.


Sry to hear that. I have the King S1 and S3 6K's and the Icebear 4K. 
As far as I can tell, the two 6K's are the same except for size. The feel the same, smell the same ( the 6K has a distinctive smell ), create the same edge and are as slow as each other.

The IB 4k is a different color, smells different, has a family resemblance feel wise but is much much faster and leaves an edge that has noticeably more bite than the 6K. I'd say Lee Valley where playing games. No way the 6K and 4K Kings are anywhere near close enough to be considered the same.


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## Knife2meatu (Jul 24, 2021)

@branwell

To be clear: Yes, there is a 4k King -- which gets sold under the Ice Bear brand also, I assume; much like other Matsunaga products.

And I didn't say Lee Valley says the 4k & 6k Kings are the same; I said they sold the 6k as a 4k stone.

And to once more be quite fair, Lee Valley doesn't sell it as an Ice Bear, they sold it as a King. They just happened to ship it in an Ice Bear box bearing the label F #4000...


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## branwell (Jul 24, 2021)

Ruso said:


> Very tempting to try, the stone sounds amazing, but not sure what use will it have. Does it replace Gesshin 2K or Rika?


Cant speak for the Geshin.

In use, the Ouka feels like a slightly harder lower grit Rika. Its still got the nice creamy feel but has a bit more granular feel as lower grit stones do.
I never got along with the Rika because while I liked sharpening on it, I never felt I was getting a great edge from it. The edge I would get while good, was not as keen as other stones I have in that grit range and it also lacked bite without doing something like adding Aoto slurry to the mix. The Ouka on the other hand has good bite and is pretty keen for a 3K so to me, the Ouka is a better stone. But that's just me. Others might prefer the Rika.


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## branwell (Jul 24, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Also - tell me about these Nubabtamas... do I need one in my life?



I think so. One of the Platinum's for sure. I have a 1K and a 1.5k and both are better than any other stone I have in that grit range. Short soakers, very fast, great feedback and interestingly, both are feel wise compatible with the Ouka and compliment it well. Am super tempted by the Platinum 6K but think I might try the Suehiro 6k offering first as I'm going to marry the Ouka and she might get jealous if I switch teams so fast 

Other Nubatamas I have.

Bamboo 5k. Don't like. Its slow, fairly numb feeling and cracks. I affixed mine to a back plate but just not a fan. I did see a vid of Jeff using one which was clearly faster than mine. I asked Ken about it and he said they didn't change the formula but who knows.

Ume 1K speckled. If you want to get things done this is a fast stone, but I'm pretty sure its closer to an 800 than a 1K. Its also a bit gritty feeling so I'm not really a big fan.

Bamboo 400. Not convinced. Its kind of muddy but can still feel glassy on hard steels. I prefer the Chosera 400 and way prefer the Carter Pride 600 ( not sure if this is the same as the Pride 600 ) in this slot which smokes them both in speed and feel.

Nubatama 150. This is a reasonably fast stone but its gets muddy with a lot of loose grit so can produce a not so great haze right above the bevel line. I prefer the Shapton Pro 220 in his slot.


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## Dominick Maone (Jul 25, 2021)

I “needed” a 3k and a 6k stone. So I just bought the Cerax 3k, King ice bear 4K and 6k, Arashiyama 6k, and Kitayama 8k. Will be at least the third time I have said I will never need another stone. I really hope I don’t get into jnats.


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## branwell (Jul 25, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> Will be at least the third time I have said I will never need another stone.


You are doomed for sure.


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## M1k3 (Jul 25, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> I “needed” a 3k and a 6k stone. So I just bought the Cerax 3k, King ice bear 4K and 6k, Arashiyama 6k, and Kitayama 8k. Will be at least the third time I have said I will never need another stone. I really hope I don’t get into jnats.


How are you doing on cutting boards?


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## Dominick Maone (Jul 25, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> How are you doing on cutting boards?


Ahaha. You saw the onion cutting video I posted. No good cutting board. It’s on the list. I use a pretty old plastic one usually but have lately been using a cutting board I use for camping.


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## M1k3 (Jul 25, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> Ahaha. You saw the onion cutting video I posted. No good cutting board. It’s on the list. I use a pretty old plastic one usually but have lately been using a cutting board I use for camping.


I didn't pay attention. Was just suggesting another money grabber


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## Dominick Maone (Jul 25, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> I didn't pay attention. Was just suggesting another money grabber


Guy and gals. Listen up. If you want a money grabber- take up scuba diving. Makes knives and stones seem cheap.

My girlfriend has a cutting board on her list for my birthday present. So I can’t buy one for myself or she will get mad.

I will share my thoughts on the Cerax once I have used it.


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## M1k3 (Jul 25, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> Guy and gals. Listen up. If you want a money grabber- take up scuba diving. Makes knives and stones seem cheap.
> 
> My girlfriend has a cutting board on her list for my birthday present. So I can’t buy one for myself or she will get mad.
> 
> I will share my thoughts on the Cerax once I have used it.


Scuba diving is worse than a boat?


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## Dominick Maone (Aug 12, 2021)

Should I be soaking the Cerax? A couple distributors say do not soak.


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## cotedupy (Aug 13, 2021)

Dominick Maone said:


> Should I be soaking the Cerax? A couple distributors say do not soak.



It'll work perfectly with a 10 or 15 min soak. You can permasoak it if you find convenient (I do), but it acts the same as just soaking for 10 mins.


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## hukdizzle (Aug 14, 2021)

I have a Rika 3K and a Naniwa Pro 3K, any reasons for me to pick one of these up? I think I remember this thing being a great synth kasumi stone per the grandiose thread no?


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## cotedupy (Aug 14, 2021)

hukdizzle said:


> I have a Rika 3K and a Naniwa Pro 3K, any reasons for me to pick one of these up? I think I remember this thing being a great synth kasumi stone per the grandiose thread no?



I was under the impression that the Rika was 5k and the Ouka 3k, though might be wrong.

If you have a Rika 3k, then I imagine it’s the same stone as the Ouka / Cerax 3k... (?)


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## Bart.s (Aug 14, 2021)

There is no Rika 3K. The Rika refers to the 5K, but both Ouka and Rika belong to the 'whetstone for professional use' line. Link to the Suehiro website.


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## hukdizzle (Aug 14, 2021)

Ohhhh I see, I bought it a while back at cktg and it appears he has several stones called rikas.


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## Bart.s (Aug 14, 2021)

hukdizzle said:


> Ohhhh I see, I bought it a while back at cktg and it appears he has several stones called rikas.



In that case CKTG has misnamed them and it would seem you already have the Ouka 3k


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