# Upgrade for my Gyuto and Santoku knives



## RolfK (Apr 29, 2018)

Hi, just new in this nice knife forum, and like to share some thoughts about an upgrade of my knife set.

Right now Ive a set of four knives, a 21cm gyuto of Shiki, a 16cm santoku of Hiromoto, a bread knife and small petty. All VG10 steel. Bought most of them at JCK. Im not unhappy with these knives, but Id like more sharpness and longer edge retention. Ill stick with the bread knife and petty, they are good for their jobs. So Id like to upgrade the VG10 gyuto and santoku style knives. I dont care if some rust will develop when moving to other steels. Price range of about 200-350 USD.

After some research I ended up with a preference of these steels: HAP40 and/or white steel nr 1. 

The HAP40 of Sukenari (kiritsuke style), its very hard but better to manage than ZDP189, beautiful made. 
https://japanesechefsknife.com/products/sukenari-hap-40-series-kiritsuke-210mm-to-270mm-3-sizes

And the white steel nr1 Maboroshi knives of Fujiwara Teruyasu. Read some good reviews about this brand. A bit roughly made, but super sharp. And quite good prices from their website:
https://www.teruyasu.net/products/detail_4.html

Ive also looked at Aogami Super steel as an upgrade to VG10. But for the mentioned brands the AS steel models are very expensive and (as far as I can tell) not much a better choice than HAP40 or white steel nr1. 

Regarding the HAP40 steel knives, I know there arent many other brands to consider (Gihei, Kohetsu, Kazan, Mugen). But for choices of (affordable) white steel nr 1, I dont know much :O

Any advice would be appreciated! Thank you, Rolf


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## HRC_64 (Apr 29, 2018)

Go for the Fujiwaras. They meet all of your criteria.

That being said, sharp is as sharp does

so think about a knife and a setup 
for your stones that will work together
and that you will be happy to use.


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## Neko (Apr 30, 2018)

For the Santoku, you could always go end game and never have an urge to upgrade with a Mizuno honyaki :angel2:


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## Nemo (Apr 30, 2018)

Welcome to the forums.

Don't buy a set, buy a knife for a particular purpose. And then another knife for another purpse (or for the same one as the first if you like). And then aother knife... you get the idea [emoji6]

Don't buy a steel, buy a maker. Well, at least pay more attention to who is making the knife than which steel they are using. The maker's heat treatment of the steel is at least as important as the steel itself. And the grind and profile of the knife are more important again.

I also caution against an excessive focus on hardness. Once you cross a certain hardness threshold (maybe 60-63 hrc? - depending on the edge geomety and perhaps the steel itself), the edge's mode of failure is no longer by rolling over like in a western blade. It will either microchip (if it is too brittle for the task at hand and its geometry- this is determined by its toughness not its hardness) or it will gradually abrade away (the rate of abrasion being dependent primarily on the carbides present within the steel and, to a lesser extent, the hardness of the steel).

Hap40 and zdp189 can be made very hard, but their long edge retention is probably more due to the abrasion resistance imparted by the high volume of carbides they contain.

I suggest deciding what you want in a knife (profile, grind, thinness/ food release tradeoff, edge retention/ ease of sharpening tradeoff etc) and fill out the questionairre (found in "general" / "the kitchen knife") so fhat you can get some specific advice


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## Benuser (Apr 30, 2018)

More sharpness required? Let us first discuss how you maintain your present knives rather than buying other ones.
So, Rolf, how do you sharpen?


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## Nemo (Apr 30, 2018)

Benuser said:


> More sharpness required? Let us first discuss how you maintain your present knives rather than buying other ones.
> So, Rolf, how do you sharpen?


Great point


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## Panamapeet (Apr 30, 2018)

In any case, I wouldn't go for a fujiwara unless you can pick one out in person and know what to look for...


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## RolfK (Apr 30, 2018)

Yes thks, I get the idea 

Some more info of my situation. I use the 21cm gyuto and 16cm santoku for the same purpose. Cutting vegetables, fruit, herbs (every day) and meat, fish (about 3x a week). Im a home cook not a pro.

The reason of the two knives is the difference in size, not so much the difference in model. Must say that the edge shape isnt much different.
So I use the 21cm gyuto for bigger stuff, and the 16cm santoku for smaller products. I hope that makes some sense 

I use ceramic wetstones for sharpening, a #1000 and #4000. Bought from JCK, not sure about the brand. Ive watched some videos how pros are sharpening. So sure Im not the best sharpener, but it wont be all wrong. The results after sharpening arent that bad. But I guess there are sharper knives around and the VG10 steel edge isnt very long lasting.
So thats why I end up thinking about higher rockwell steels which are sharper and/or holding the edge for a longer time. 

By the way  I do like the idea of getting one better knive first, and maybe upgrade the sharpening tool. And then move on, if needed. In the end I can work with a large chef knife and cut about everything with it. The smaller 16cm knife is a bonus, not completely necessary.


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## Benuser (Apr 30, 2018)

VG-10 has a particular dulling curve. Crazy sharp fresh from the stones, dulling quickly to a very acceptable level and staying there almost forever. Sharpening it is far from simple: it requires a careful abrading of the burr through the entire progression by very light, longitudinal strokes.
Harder steel type may sometimes offer a better edge retention. Simple steel types offer the best sharpness. Amongst those very basic carbon steel types.
Very hard shirogami is crazy sharp but has a poor edge retention. Very advanced steel types often are difficult at sharpening. 
Try a basic carbon and find out your preferences about profile, balance, width, size, geometry and other options.


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## Benuser (Apr 30, 2018)

I wouldn't be surprised if the poor edge retention you're experiencing was a wire edge, a special case of a burr on top of the edge, thin as foil, sharp like hell, but very fragile, breaking off within a few cuts and leaving a damaged edge behind. Start sharpening with carbons, and certainly not with VG-10.


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## RolfK (Apr 30, 2018)

True, my experience is like you say. After sharpening the knives are ok and I'm happy. But just for a short time.

I do like the gyuto a bit more because it get's sharper for some reason. Thanks to it's thinner blade I guess, that's also helpfull when cutting.

Or are bigger blades usual more sharper than smaller ones :angel2:


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## Benuser (Apr 30, 2018)

Longer blades have a longer contact area with the board. Compare a petty and a gyuto: forget the heel area and the upswing to the tip. What remains is where you usually cut with. With a 240mm gyuto easily four times as long as with a 150mm petty. A shorter one will dull much faster.


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## Consequence (Apr 30, 2018)

fujiwara and the hap40 from sukenari may chipped if not used properly and are not beginner friendly. i recommend something like mazaki or kochi or watanabe. those are nice.


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## Consequence (Apr 30, 2018)

Nemo said:


> Welcome to the forums.
> 
> Don't buy a set, buy a knife for a particular purpose. And then another knife for another purpse (or for the same one as the first if you like). And then aother knife... you get the idea [emoji6]
> 
> ...



+1. well said
if i were you i would pursue the best edge and perfect my sharpening. get a carbon steel and have some fun


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 30, 2018)

Any good carbon blade will be more sharpening friendly than your VG10. Since you are used to stainless a Stainless clad carbon core is an option. Grind and geometry are important in a blade not just steel some of the Hap40 at CKTG have average to poor grinds. 

If you want a vey nice blade that looks awesome too, the stainless clad carbon core Kochi is nice. Even their 180mm & 210mm are tall in the heel and are good cutters.


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## Benuser (Apr 30, 2018)

I had a great experience with JCK's 210 Deep Impact. Finely grained, hard without being brittle, very thin behind the edge. Expect an outstanding edge retention and very easy sharpening.


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## RolfK (May 1, 2018)

Thanks all. Kochi and JCK AS steel are noted! The other brands are not always to buy in the EU or at the JCK shop.
I guess when edge retention is high on my list, the blue carbon is the way to go.

Any other makers who are great, regarding this kind of steel?

Mizuno was mentioned in this thread. I dont have honyaki money in my pocket, but JCK has got some more or less affordable blue carbon knives.

About 400 USD for a Gyuto 21cm Blue 1 or 24cm Blue 2. Also put these ones on my list? The handle seems a bit cheap, or is it just the looks?!
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...-wa-gyuto-with-shinogi-210mm-to-270mm-3-sizes


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## panda (May 1, 2018)

more sharp hella good retention - sounds like watanabe


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## Nemo (May 1, 2018)

I'd still like to see the answers to the questionairre so that we can offer some personalised advice to you.


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## RolfK (May 2, 2018)

Its well hidden...
A link would be helpfull, thks


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## Nemo (May 2, 2018)

RolfK said:


> Its well hidden...
> A link would be helpfull, thks


http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?t=12791


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## RolfK (May 2, 2018)

Many thks, here we go:

LOCATION
Netherlands, Europe

KNIFE TYPE
Chef knife, right handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? 
Not sure. I only have western handles. But I like the looks of japanese and would like to try them.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? 
210 or 240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? 
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? 
About 400 USD 

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? 
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for?
Slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats and fish.

What knife, if any, are you replacing? 
A chef knife VG10 steel, 210mm

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? 
Hammer grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? 
Push-cut, chop, rock, walk

What improvements do you want from your current knife? 
More sharpness, longer edge retention

Better aesthetics? 
No, rather pay more for better steel/maker.

Comfort? 
Not sure, I am happy right now.

Ease of Use? 
Happy right now.

Edge Retention? 
Needs improvement.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? 
Yes, wood.

Do you sharpen your own knives? 
Yes, wetstones #1000 and #4000

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? 
Yes if needed.


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## Benuser (May 2, 2018)

I would choose a basic carbon blade of 240mm. Fujiwara Kanefusa, Misono, with JCK. Masahiro with cleancut.se.
Please be aware that the Japanese asymmetry makes the edges vulnerable to lateral forces. So, no walking, please.
And use some of the remaining budget for a medium-coarse stone, I'd say a Naniwa Pro / Chosera 400, to get easily rid of a factory edge and for future thinning.


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## Jovidah (May 2, 2018)

Most of us dislike VG10 for the same reasons you mentioned; it's annoying to sharpen, and while it holds a mediocre edge forever, it doesn't excel in holding (or taking) a great edge. My results with VG10 were often best using an edge leading approach to sharpening (compared to the usual Japanese approach of spine leading).

But I also doubt the wisdom of diving straight into the most exclusive metals you can find. Even just looking at the composition of HAP40 I can't imagine it to be easy to sharpen unless you're using diamond... but I don't know if anyone has actual experience on this?


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## Nemo (May 2, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> Most of us dislike VG10 for the same reasons you mentioned; it's annoying to sharpen, and while it holds a mediocre edge forever, it doesn't excel in holding (or taking) a great edge. My results with VG10 were often best using an edge leading approach to sharpening (compared to the usual Japanese approach of spine leading).
> 
> But I also doubt the wisdom of diving straight into the most exclusive metals you can find. Even just looking at the composition of HAP40 I can't imagine it to be easy to sharpen unless you're using diamond... but I don't know if anyone has actual experience on this?


Hap 40 (I have Gihei's at a lowish 65 HRC) is not too hard to sharpen. Not sure if that relates to it being a PM steel.


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## TEWNCfarms (May 2, 2018)

RolfK said:


> Hi, just new in this nice knife forum, and like to share some thoughts about an upgrade of my knife set.
> 
> Right now Ive a set of four knives, a 21cm gyuto of Shiki, a 16cm santoku of Hiromoto, a bread knife and small petty. All VG10 steel. Bought most of them at JCK. Im not unhappy with these knives, but Id like more sharpness and longer edge retention. Ill stick with the bread knife and petty, they are good for their jobs. So Id like to upgrade the VG10 gyuto and santoku style knives. I dont care if some rust will develop when moving to other steels. Price range of about 200-350 USD.
> 
> ...



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-GE...Handle-1513-/332630353728?hash=item4d72506740
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-GE...Handle-1503-/372282930801?hash=item56adcab671
https://m.ebay.com/itm/GEKKO-Blue-S...-Handle-1404-/332623173348?_mwBanner=1&_rdt=1


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## TEWNCfarms (May 3, 2018)

RolfK said:


> Hi, just new in this nice knife forum, and like to share some thoughts about an upgrade of my knife set.
> 
> Right now Ive a set of four knives, a 21cm gyuto of Shiki, a 16cm santoku of Hiromoto, a bread knife and small petty. All VG10 steel. Bought most of them at JCK. Im not unhappy with these knives, but Id like more sharpness and longer edge retention. Ill stick with the bread knife and petty, they are good for their jobs. So Id like to upgrade the VG10 gyuto and santoku style knives. I dont care if some rust will develop when moving to other steels. Price range of about 200-350 USD.
> 
> ...



https://www.echefknife.com/product/...steel-clad-gyuto-chefs-knife-rosewood-handle/
https://www.echefknife.com/product/yoshihiro-nashiji-high-carbon-gyuto/
https://www.echefknife.com/product/...-d-shaped-shitan-handle-with-nuri-saya-cover/
https://www.echefknife.com/product/yoshihiro-mizu-yaki-aogami-super-blue-high-carbon-kurouchi-gyuto/
https://www.echefknife.com/product/...-shitan-handlewith-lacquered-nuri-saya-cover/


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## Jovidah (May 3, 2018)

That gekko gyuto looks horrible... tip is so high it looks almost german. And what's with all the yoshihiro recommendations? Just a week ago you had never even used a gyuto...


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## Benuser (May 3, 2018)

It would be pleasant if members at least mentioned in case they haven't personally experienced what they advise. In some cases it's all too obvious, of course.


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## TEWNCfarms (May 3, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> That gekko gyuto looks horrible... tip is so high it looks almost german. And what's with all the yoshihiro recommendations? Just a week ago you had never even used a gyuto...



And I still havent. That is the knife he is looking for. And yeah I dont really like the Gekko gyuto there, but my Gekko Kiritsuke is great. And because both Gekko and yoshiro have good knives for a Much more reasonable price tgan some bland name brand from other websites. You all talk **** about Kramer but all the other stuff thats recommended on here are just as generic and name brand as his ****. F uck name brands, theres plenty of great unknown brands out there and a lot that are better.


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## HRC_64 (May 3, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> And I still havent. That is the knife he is looking for. And yeah I dont really like the Gekko gyuto there, but my Gekko Kiritsuke is great. And because both Gekko and yoshiro have good knives for a Much more reasonable price tgan some bland name brand from other websites. You all talk **** about Kramer but all the other stuff thats recommended on here are just as generic and name brand as his ****. F uck name brands, theres plenty of great unknown brands out there and a lot that are better.



dude chill out


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## TEWNCfarms (May 3, 2018)

Benuser said:


> It would be pleasant if members at least mentioned in case they haven't personally experienced what they advise. In some cases it's all too obvious, of course.



Well i have a Gekko. And I heard that Gekko are the randoms from yoshiro that dont make the cut, and so if the Gekko is good then Im sure Yoshihiro is too. You guys are all worked up over certain brands when its the sharpening that brings life to the knife. I can turn any ****** knife into a great knife with some work. The only difference with Really expensive knives if I was going to buy one is to get one made of new metal that almost never loses its razor edge. Besides that f uck spending $500+ for something you can get for $100-200. Its like buying OEM car parts when you can get the same Exact part for half the price. And oh wait it even goes back to the free market debate in the forum, those Smiths and even the part manufacturers charge way more than they should because dumb as ses pay for it, and then theres dumb as ses like me who are poor and buy the cheap knock offs which are Always just as good, well not always but a lot of times


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## TEWNCfarms (May 3, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> dude chill out



No bro beans this is serious! Im just kidding bro beans, Im chill


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## HRC_64 (May 3, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> No bro beans this is serious! Im just kidding bro beans, Im chill



its too early to be this drunk sounding :rofl:


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## RolfK (May 3, 2018)

Thanks all. The advise is mixed, still puzzled

I will stay away from the super high Rockwell knives. I understand Carbon is better to maintain and easier for me. An extra low grid stone is also a good point. Right now I sometimes struggle with repairing chips that take a long time work with a #1000 grid. And after all the long work the VG10 gets dull after some days 

A simplistic Carbon like misoni, hmmm dont know. I know good is good enough. But I do like something special and unique in my kitchen. 

So when talking about Carbon; which other makers are the best, with perfect grinds?

Another thing thats still in my head: what if I move to lower Rockwell and easier PM steels like R2 or YXR7? Same advantages what Im looking for and easy to grind they say? 

Sukinari at JCK or other makers have R2 available. 
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...lad-wa-series-wa-gyuto-210mm-to-270mm-3-sizes

Or the extra tough YXR7:
http://www.knivesandstones.com/sukenari-yxr7-hsts-gyuto-240mm/

Any thoughts? Is Carbon still a better choice, compared at the same price?


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## Jovidah (May 3, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> And I still havent. That is the knife he is looking for.



I don't want to be overly blunt or abrasive.... but then maybe you should refrain from giving people specific suggestions when you don't even have the faintest idea what you're talking about. You haven't used most of what you're 'recommending', nor do you have any basis for comparison. I might as well ask a vegetarian for advice about meat.



> And yeah I dont really like the Gekko gyuto there, but my Gekko Kiritsuke is great. And because both Gekko and yoshiro have good knives for a Much more reasonable price tgan some bland name brand from other websites. You all talk **** about Kramer but all the other stuff thats recommended on here are just as generic and name brand as his ****. F uck name brands, theres plenty of great unknown brands out there and a lot that are better.



Again... you're basing your judgements or what? I don't know anything about Yoshihiro knives because I've never been near one, never saw one, and never really saw much beyond their own website. For that reason there's really nothing sensible I can say about them. Why are you specifically recommending them when you have all these same limitations?

Most people here recommend specific knives because they actually used them, and other knives, and are in a position to make sensible comparisons based on real experience. 
Since I personally lack that wide experience, I refrain from making specific suggestions, and stick to more broad advice. I leave the specific recommendations to people who actually know what they're talking about, unless people have questions about knives I do have personal experience with.

The name brands here aren't so much name brands... they are smiths who are known for consistently producing blades of good quality, and people think the specifications of a suggestion match the proposed needs of the person asking the question. And in fact a lot of the 'regular recommendations' have reached that position exactly because of their great price/performance ratio.

Just buying random no name no guarantee stuff is simply a complete gamble. Suggesting others to take such a blind gamble is simply dishonest.


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## Jovidah (May 3, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> Well i have a Gekko. And I heard that Gekko are the randoms from yoshiro that dont make the cut, and so if the Gekko is good then Im sure Yoshihiro is too. You guys are all worked up over certain brands when its the sharpening that brings life to the knife. I can turn any ****** knife into a great knife with some work. The only difference with Really expensive knives if I was going to buy one is to get one made of new metal that almost never loses its razor edge. Besides that f uck spending $500+ for something you can get for $100-200. Its like buying OEM car parts when you can get the same Exact part for half the price. And oh wait it even goes back to the free market debate in the forum, those Smiths and even the part manufacturers charge way more than they should because dumb as ses pay for it, and then theres dumb as ses like me who are poor and buy the cheap knock offs which are Always just as good, well not always but a lot of times



I'm sorry but this shows exactly how little you know. There's a LOT more to it than just the sharpening. There's the heat treatment, the profile, the geometry, the weight distribution, the f&f, and a million other things to consider.
The fact that you missed the issue with the profile on the gekko gyutos is telling in how limited your experience is. 

And while admittedly some aspects can be 'tuned', this isn't true of all aspects of a knife. You can't correct a heat treatment. You can't move a tip lower without losing a _lot_ of length. And things like correcting profiles and geometries, while possible to some extent, can take a lot of time and experience that isn't necessarily present with the person buying the knife.
The fact that you're 'only willing to spend money on a fancy metal' is indicative of the 'metal-focus' that's present with many people at the start of their journey.... before they know better. You keep talking like you know it all, yet everything you say indicates you don't.

No one here's telling you have to spend 500 dollars to get a good knife. In fact many people here often make recommendations far below the maximum budget. No one's saying you have to spend more on your knife than you're willing to. But that doesn't mean there isn't a huge difference between a $100 and a $200 knife (if neither one is a lemon), or still a noticable one between some $200 and $300 dollar knives (exceptions aside). Yet you continue to make statements about these knives even though you never even saw one up close.


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## Jovidah (May 3, 2018)

RolfK said:


> Thanks all. The advise is mixed, still puzzled
> 
> I will stay away from the super high Rockwell knives. I understand Carbon is better to maintain and easier for me. An extra low grid stone is also a good point. Right now I sometimes struggle with repairing chips that take a long time work with a #1000 grid. And after all the long work the VG10 gets dull after some days
> 
> ...



Sorry for the little sidetrack...

From what I've heard and seen so far the Sukenari's are all pretty similar in grinds... but you'd have to ask Koki about that to be sure. I'm pretty sure there were at least some people who have tried the YXR7 on the German forum (http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/). If you dig around there you should be able to find something.

If you're in the market for R2 most people are also quite happy about the Takamura (the one with the red pakkawood handle) that can be found relatively cheap even in Europe. You can also find plenty of reviews about that on the KMS forum (it's a forum favorite because a German shop - japan-messer-shop- used to sell it for just 135 euros). In a nutshell the main issues is that there's no 240, and the 210 isn't particularly tall. On the flipside it is one of the most affordable lasers you can get.

I'll leave the PM vs carbon discussion to others.


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## Benuser (May 3, 2018)

@Rolf: "A simplistic Carbon like misoni, hmmm dont know. I know good is good enough. But I do like something special and unique in my kitchen."
There's nothing simplistic about a Misono. It's a refined, elaborate design with great attention to details and the grinding is far from simple. Fit&Finish and QC are exceptional. The used steel is simple - in the good sense of the word. A basic, very pure carbon that provides both a far higher sharpness and easier sharpening than modern, advanced alloys.
Don't get fooled by the modest price. These old-school steel types are not just unexpensive; working them is quite simple and hasn't to be outsourced.
I would call a modern Sab or perhaps a Fujiwara as simple knife - not simplistic. 
But not a Misono.


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## RolfK (May 4, 2018)

Yes true, I mean a more or less basic steel. That wont be a bad thing, I understand.
You mean these knives?
https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/misono-sweden-steel-series-forged-carbon-steel

I dont like reading swedish steel on a japanese knife. The lower Rockwell and price
Well I know, it is all foolish of me. It can be the best quality-price option!


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## Nemo (May 4, 2018)

Nothin' wrong with Swedish steel. Many Swedish steels are VERY well regarded.

For example, Shigs are made of a Swedish steel.


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## Benuser (May 4, 2018)

Swedish ore has always been highly regarded, indeed, for its unusual composition. The best Sheffield, Solingen and Thiers are made from steel made from Swedish ore.
Swedish steel -- both carbon and stainless -- are known for the conformity to their specifications. 
Japanese makers often use Swedish steel types.


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## RolfK (May 4, 2018)

Ok, so I can take this one as a reliable steel option. The link to Misono is the right one, they have many series?

How does it relate to the earlier mentioned JCK Deep Impact with AS steel?

Or my suggestion of Sukenari R2 or YXR7 steel? In Germany there are some happy users of these knives.


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## Benuser (May 4, 2018)

Can only tell about the 210 Deep Impact. Aogami Super is a very rich carbon steel, more abrasion resistant and less reactive than common carbon steel. Heat treatment with the Deep Impact is very successful: finely grained, very hard without any brittleness I could notice. Sharpening difficulty is average: asking a bit more dexterity in deburring than with basic carbons, far easier than any stainless. Blade is very thin behind the edge. Put a conservative edge on it and you get a spectacular edge retention.


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## Benuser (May 4, 2018)




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## RolfK (May 5, 2018)

Thks, looks good. Hows the food release compared to the misono?

I guess in general the biggest difference between these knives will be rust resistency and caring? Ive seen the misono steel is reactive.

The JCK deep impact step from 210mm to 240 seems quite large. The 240 is a much bigger and heavier knife. Thats why youve chosen the 210? 
Must say a larger handle wont hurt, japanese handles can be a bit small for me.

Which one do you prefer in the end, the misono or JCK (and why)?


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## Benuser (May 5, 2018)

I bought the Deep Impact as a trial, and resold it because I was in the pressing need of funds. The 210 is a bit short in my case, arthritis had me to change my pinch grip into some forward claw.



Food release has all to do with using the fat heel section. Both knives have a very thin middle section. Let the release take place at the tip by pulling, or the fat heel by pushing.
None of them are lasers where the blade is equally flat along the entire blade. 
Please note the Deep Impact is just as asymmetric as all knives, flat left face, convexed right one, especially near the heel. The 50/50 mention in JCK's doesn't mean anything.
With both knives first thing to do is putting a reasonable edge on it. Right side convexed, ending at some 12 degree, left side a small straight bevel of almost 20 degree. It's my standard edge, after that I will see whether steering or performance make any adjustment necessary.
In any case, get rid of any factory edge.


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## RolfK (May 5, 2018)

Ok Thanks for explaining. And in the end, would you prefer the misono or JCK knive?


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## Benuser (May 5, 2018)

Haven't tried the JCK AS 240. Misono 210 is too narrow, you might consider the 195 instead. JCK has the far better steel, the Misono the character. If possible have both.


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## Benuser (May 5, 2018)

AS offers the best edge stability if the progression is started with a medium-coarse stone. Has to do with the tungsten carbide, I guess. Adding a 400 is imperative when choosing an AS, IMMHO...


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## RolfK (May 6, 2018)

Yes I understand, will do that. Is a finer one like #8000 important, now mine is #4000?

Too bad that you did have to sell the JCK! A 2nd hand could also work for me. Does an EU marketplace exist, or just on this forum?

Dont know about buying 2 knives...
Then 1x a blue Mizuno could be a better option?


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## Jovidah (May 6, 2018)

You might want to take height into account as well. If you're going for a 240 it's not an issue but for example the Misono is pretty 'low'. 
Also, I don't know if you have any preference balance wise but I'd expect both to be pretty neutral since both the Misono and Deep Impact (haven't handled them myself but I suppose Benuser can clear that up?).

Regarding second-hand options... every once in a blue moon something comes by here, but not too often; most of the sales threads here are from the US. But who knows you can always get lucky. You can also make an account on kochmalscharf so you can see the B/S/T there; in general I'd say you see more EU sales over there than here.

Mizuno isn't so much a better or worse option as it is a different option - and also a far more expensive one. 
The difficulty is that you're unlikely to find many if any people who used both the Deep Impact & the Mizuno, or all 3.
I could come up with theoretical ideas about what I'd expect the differences to be... but that'd be pure speculation. The theoretical 'ranking' of certain metals on how their edge retention / ease of sharpening compare doesn't necessarily hold true in reality when differences in heat treatment come into play. Only thing I'm pretty confident in saying is that the Mizuno will be more forward-balanced simply by firtue of having a wa-handle (which tend to be lighter than yo-handles). People tend to rave about their grinds, which usually show good food release in test videos and user experiences.


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## HRC_64 (May 6, 2018)

Mizuno doesn't make a great "1 and done" option 
because of the reactive iron cladding

Of course he has other options, 
like using his VG-10 stuff to offload 
the role as fruit knife beater knife.

But really I think mizuno is a much
more agressive option here, wheras
the Misono is a conservative one.

just my $0.02


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## Nemo (May 6, 2018)

Once it patinas, the Miz is not so reactive. Just make sure you rinse and dry after cutting really acidic stuff.


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## RolfK (May 9, 2018)

Thanks guys. Then I guess the JCK AS 240 will be a good idea. Regarding the price, qualities of grind, edge retention and low reactivity. That will work for me. 

About the thought of a 2nd Misono: just about the same knife as the JCK wouldn't make much sense for me. But given the JCK as a 'delicate' knife, I'd like to have another one for heavier tasks. Like cutting hard cheese, pumpkin etc. Right now I'm doing this with the VG-10 knife and didn't have problems (so far). 

Would the deba model of the Misono Sweden carbon be a good option? Or could the lighter santuko be good enough without damaging the edge on hard products?


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## Benuser (May 9, 2018)

What makes you think the 240 JCK were a delicate knife??
That being said, the Misono yo-deba is a very elegant monster to go at war with. Crazy sharp but crazy thick as well, and any unlikely damage gets restored with a few strokes on newspaper. And ignorants see it as some santoku -- a bit heavy perhaps...


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## RolfK (May 9, 2018)

Ok sorry about that, not delicate? Thought so because of the AS steel and the blade is quite thin. 

Anyway, do you think it's allright to cut hard products with it without chipping, like old Dutch cheese and pumpkin? Then I'll be satisfied


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## Benuser (May 9, 2018)

OK, those are tasks I always do with softer carbons, but that is purely by precaution. I still have to experience my first AS chips. And repair of softer carbon is so easy.


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## RolfK (May 9, 2018)

Ok I understand, softer steels are the other way around. Also Misono then, or another brand?

For this 2nd knife I'll mostly work with hard products like cheese, nuts, pumpkin. But chicken (including bones) and fish will also be on the menu. That's why I end with the idea of a Deba. Sure I understand it's heavy and for wars, but maybe I like that part :viking:


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## Benuser (May 9, 2018)

With chicken, you go through cartilage perhaps, and certainly through joints and tendons. Not through bones. For joints you use any thin blade. A yo-deba is a lot of fun, but not exactly thin...


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## HRC_64 (May 9, 2018)

Or get a 240 or 300 big
chef knife tho for beater duty

Like a sab or trizor or something like 
this... komagiri

https://www.hocho-knife.com/sabun-all-steel-hand-finished-wide-chef-knife-komagiri-240mm/


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## RolfK (May 10, 2018)

Sure the deba is thick and heavy. But don't know if that's a big problem for me. I won't have to use it all day...
I like the idea of having one 'sturdy beast' so I can cut any hard products, without worrying about damages etc. 

Do you know if the Misono is all the way sturdy up to the tip? So I can use the full the blade when pushing through hard products, with my free hand on top of the blade? Or just the heel side?
(This can influence my choice of the size)

And will it be possible to cut in the walking style, because this knife is tough enough for this job?


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## Benuser (May 10, 2018)

A double-sided (yo-)deba is sturdy along the entire edge. Will see if I can make a few pix to show.


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## RolfK (May 11, 2018)

Would be nice, thks in advance! Im also curious what the steel looks like, after use. They say its quite reactive...

Walking with this tough kind of knife will be possible right?

And would you recommend a finer grind stone for the JCK and Misono knives, my finest right now is #4000? 
(Ill take the coarse #400 stone anyway)


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## Benuser (May 11, 2018)




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## Benuser (May 11, 2018)

Here the 165 yo-deba. Almost no distal taper. It will take any abuse. Your 4k will be great for maintenance. 
Just as newspaper, cardboard, denim, whatever you have. But the 4k is perfect to eliminate the last burr remnants. 
Recent Misonos seem a bit less reactive, that's why I added the 165 Honesuki.
Anyway, once in use it all calms down. 
Leg uw oor niet te luisteren bij valse profeten.


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## RolfK (May 11, 2018)

Nice pics, now I know what you mean with character! It doesnt look too bad.
Great that I dont have to upgrade my finest wetstone, those can be quite expensive...

Still puzzled which size of the Misono deba will be the best for me. Is 165mm too small...the next one is a big step up to 210mm. And +90USD. Though a big knife is great for handling a pumpkin for example.

How do you feel about the 165mm size? Happy with it?


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## btbyrd (May 11, 2018)

Yo debas are wedge monsters. You don't have to worry about your knife breaking when you're slicing squash, but you do have to worry about the squash breaking as it tries to accommodate all that steel as your blade comes down.


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## Benuser (May 11, 2018)

RolfK said:


> Still puzzled which size of the Misono deba will be the best for me. Is 165mm too small...the next one is a big step up to 210mm. And +90USD. Though a big knife is great for handling a pumpkin for example.
> 
> How do you feel about the 165mm size? Happy with it?


Just wanted to try a yo-deba, and got this offered in the B/S/T at favourable conditions. 
No need for a yo-deba for pumpkins. Any normal gyuto will work. And if any damage occurs with any job, next time you put a slightly more conservative edge on it.


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## Benuser (May 11, 2018)

btbyrd said:


> Yo debas are wedge monsters. You don't have to worry about your knife breaking when you're slicing squash, but you do have to worry about the squash breaking as it tries to accommodate all that steel as your blade comes down.



+1


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## btbyrd (May 11, 2018)

Debas are specialty knives. The geometry is wrong for general use. I'm not sure you need one of any size.

It's like wanting a more rugged vehicle than your Ferrari and deciding to get an Abrams tank. Yes, it's more rugged... but at what cost? You can't drive it around town; it'll tear up the roads. It's not an ideal second vehicle.

If you did a bunch of fish or chicken fabrication, a yo deba might make sense. The deba is fundamentally a butchery knife. It's not a "more robust version of a chef's knife," though it might kinda look like one.


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## btbyrd (May 11, 2018)

All that said, yo debas are fun in the right context. I've got a Tojiro 240 up for sale in the BST. I really like it on the rare occasions where I get to use it. I bought the same knife with a different handle, so I'm letting it go. They make 'em even bigger but the 240 is huge enough for me!

[video=youtube;iEiJlaXXQ8Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEiJlaXXQ8Q[/video]

And the video that made me pull the trigger.

[video=youtube;urIeUid1TMo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urIeUid1TMo[/video]

I've also got a Kajiwara 165mm deba that's super rustic and staggeringly thick at the base -- over 1cm. Fun times. Not an every day knife by any means.


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## HRC_64 (May 11, 2018)

You're not going to be "walking" a 165 yo deba anywhere... :rofl:

just my $0,02

good luck


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## Benuser (May 11, 2018)

To Rolf:
For fun only, I was experimenting with my phone camera. Here a coil shot.


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## RolfK (May 11, 2018)

Yep I know you guys are right, it might be a bit overkill. Tough fun and a no brainer if I have hard products on the menu. 
I've also seen some (small) fish filleting work with deba's, which isn't a very rough job. So it's not all about crashing bones.

That said, the misono gyuto 195mm could also be an option for me instead of the deba. 

Or any other advise of brands/types, which could be a good partner next to the JCK aogami super 240mm?


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## RolfK (May 11, 2018)

Ah just missed the photo when I was posting.
Yeah looks impressive! 

Maybe I should try a deba and figure out if I like it or not, before buying it...


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## Benuser (May 11, 2018)

I have a lot of large knives, usually feel uncomfortable with short ones. Love this one a lot:
Masahiro Virgin Carbon 180mm


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## RolfK (May 11, 2018)

Yes the 165mm deba could be a bit short to work with. From 180mm on it gets better...

Masahiro isn't available through JCK is it?
This one is also capable of a bit heavier cutting work?


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## Benuser (May 11, 2018)

RolfK said:


> Yes the 165mm deba could be a bit short to work with. From 180mm on it gets better...
> 
> Masahiro isn't available through JCK is it?
> This one is also capable of a bit heavier cutting work?



No, JCK doesn't have it anymore. Sold in Europe by cleancut.se 
Just a good gyuto, harder steel than with the Misono, less refined in Fit&Finish, different profile, but not specially invulnerable to abuse.


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## RolfK (May 12, 2018)

I believe I can't find at cleancut the Masahiro virgin carbon series, they do have 5 other steel options. 

Anyway, I've done some soul searching what I really need. For me 2x a gyuto isn't very interesting right now. A good one will be great for me like the JCK 240mm. A deba is overkill, and do I have very hard products which can't be handled by a gyuto...not often.

I've come up with this: most of my cutting is done with vegetables. I need onions, garlic, peppers, tomatoes, herbs, ginger etc almost every day. Basic ingredients for cooking Asian or Mediterranean food. Then why not choose a Nakiri as my 2nd knife next to a Gyuto?

When I look at video's of the Nakiri I understand what I'm missing right now (compared to my Gyuto): it's flat and has a lot of cutting board contact. 

Does this idea makes sense? :angel2:

And if so, any advise of good Nakiri's size 180mm? Thks all.


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## Benuser (May 12, 2018)

I'm a bit prejudiced where Nakiris are concerned. Like the look, but rarely use it.
A soft carbon petty would be a good addition in your case, for ginger and garlic. A simple Robert Herder peeling knife, or a Sab petty as this one:
https://www.sabatier-k.com/2758-anciens-carbone-k-sabatier-cuisine-15-cm----nogent---carbone.html


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## Benuser (May 12, 2018)

http://www.cookfoodgood.com/?p=409


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## RolfK (May 12, 2018)

Everyone has his personal preferences 

Thanks, but don't know about this idea. I will keep my parer, so I'm already covered for peeling and slicing (small) veggies, fruit, herbs. After that, I would like to:
- chop (mostly) and slicing, mincing
- have a smaller blade than the 240mm gyuto 
- have a wide blade for the transport of food

Right now I'm handling this task with a 165mm Santoku (VG10). But as far as I can judge a Nakiri is even better for this job. At the same time I can choose a bit larger 180mm size, and move on to another steel for better sharpness and edge retention. 

I hope this makes sense?


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## Benuser (May 12, 2018)

I think you better first get used to your new 240 before considering any new buy. With a new knife, I try for a week or two to use that one for all tasks, even if it's evidently not the most appropriated, just to learn knowing it better and perhaps adapt my technique a bit.


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## RolfK (May 13, 2018)

Yes thks, you are right. No need to hurry, a 2nd knife can wait.

If I may ask, which nakiri do you use right now?

Ive already seen some interesting threads here about nakiris. Cleancut and JNS have some choices.


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## Nemo (May 13, 2018)

RolfK said:


> If I may ask, which nakiri do you use right now?
> 
> Ive already seen some interesting threads here about nakiris. Cleancut and JNS have some choices.



FWIW, Watanabe's nakirii are very well regarded


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## Benuser (May 13, 2018)

RolfK said:


> Yes thks, you are right. No need to hurry, a 2nd knife can wait.
> 
> If I may ask, which nakiri do you use right now?
> 
> Ive already seen some interesting threads here about nakiris. Cleancut and JNS have some choices.



I had a Ryusen Blazen, bought on B/S/T, great knife, but rarely used it, so resold it.


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## RolfK (May 14, 2018)

@Benuser

Here's more about the 240mm JCK Deep Impact from a German owner. 
http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/490/natures-deep-impact-series-gyuto

He thinned the blade, because it's a bit thick for his taste. Does that make sense?
Did you have the same feeling with the 210mm size?


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## Benuser (May 14, 2018)

RolfK said:


> @Benuser
> 
> Here's more about the 240mm JCK Deep Impact from a German owner.
> http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/490/natures-deep-impact-series-gyuto
> ...



Very interesting, thanks a lot! 
That explains the huge weight difference with the 210. No, the 210 is really crazy thin behind the edge. See my pictures.


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## RolfK (May 14, 2018)

Yes I thought so. Interesting that changing the size also has impact on this important feature. It doesn't make live easier :eyebrow:

It will be a deal breaker for the 240mm size, don't you think so? 
Maybe better to choose the 210mm or another brand's 240mm?

Right now I've always worked with a 210mm gyuto and had no proplems with the size...just the VG10 steel.


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## Benuser (May 14, 2018)

For me it wouldn't be decisive. I prefer 0.2mm right above the bevel, our German friends found a slightly higher value and have reduced it to 0.12mm or so, which is rather drastic for a general purpose chef's. 
It is up to you whether you're prepared to start the use of a new knife by a thinning operation.
I wouldn't care, as I always sharpen before first use.


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## RolfK (May 14, 2018)

Ok thks, I understand. The German solution is quite extreme.

You are a expert handling knives, but for me it wont be a good idea to start with a thinning operation.

So it will be about the choice of a:
-bigger thicker 240mm knife and live with it; how bad is it anyway...
I will like the higher heel, long flat blade area, bigger handle

- take the light/thin 210mm model with the advantages you mentioned

Hmmm difficult :scratchhead:


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## Colorado_cutter (May 14, 2018)

RolfK said:


> I've come up with this: most of my cutting is done with vegetables. I need onions, garlic, peppers, tomatoes, herbs, ginger etc almost every day. Basic ingredients for cooking Asian or Mediterranean food. Then why not choose a Nakiri as my 2nd knife next to a Gyuto? When I look at video's of the Nakiri I understand what I'm missing right now (compared to my Gyuto): it's flat and has a lot of cutting board contact. Does this idea makes sense? :angel2: And if so, any advise of good Nakiri's size 180mm? Thks all.



I've never used a nakiri, but a Chinese slicer-cleaver might be a good complement to the gyuto. Lots of blade space for scooping, lots of board contact with a flat edge. And cheap.


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## Benuser (May 14, 2018)

RolfK said:


> Ok thks, I understand. The German solution is quite extreme.
> 
> You are a expert handling knives, but for me it wont be a good idea to start with a thinning operation.
> 
> ...



Any sharpening at a lower angle than the final edge's one is a form of thinning. You may thin in little stages, everytime you sharpen. Just stay a bit longer behind the edge than you normally would. Just saying, you don't have to do all at once, and there's nothing to be afraid of. 
But first see how it performs out of the box, after one normal sharpening. With the extra weight it could be a very efficient performer. This knife is made for serious users, not only for thinness-obsessed, as some of our German friends. 
I'm quite sure I will buy this 240 one of these days when my funds allow so.


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## Benuser (May 14, 2018)

I should have added that the drastic thinning will make food release rather problematic, and has considerably reduced its asymmetry. Not an example I would follow.


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## Benuser (May 14, 2018)

I should have added that the drastic thinning will make food release rather problematic, and has considerably reduced its asymmetry. Not an example I would follow. In case of heavy thinning I try to evenly reduce the entire left side, except for the last centimetre perhaps, and thin the last two centimetres of the right side, in order to maintain the convexity that assures food release.
But this has nothing to do with reducing a bit of the thickness right behind the edge.


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## RolfK (May 15, 2018)

Ok thanks a lot for explaining. And agreed, food release is also an important feature, not just a very thin blade. Decision made: for me it will also be the 240mm size.

And also buy the #400 naniwa stone. I guess this is a good source? 
https://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-naniwa-professional-stone-p304.htm

@Colorado_cutter Thanks for sharing this idea. I will keep it in mind when my 2nd knife need will come up again. First start with a new gyuto!
Maybe I will like a cleaver for veggies, being some kind of a giant nakiri


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## Benuser (May 15, 2018)

RolfK said:


> Ok thanks a lot for explaining. And agreed, food release is also an important feature, not just a very thin blade. Decision made: for me it will also be the 240mm size.
> 
> And also buy the #400 naniwa stone. I guess this is a good source?
> https://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-naniwa-professional-stone-p304.htm



Good prices and reliable.


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## RolfK (May 25, 2018)

So...the JCK Deep Impact 240 Gyuto arrived today. Some pictures and first impression:


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## Benuser (May 25, 2018)

Congratulations! Looking forward to reading your findings.


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## RolfK (May 25, 2018)

Adding photo's seems difficult..don't understand how this works?
Anyway, my first impression is quite good! It delivers what I was expecting and hoping for:

It's a better cutter than my VG10 knives. It slides effortless through food. Push cutting and rocking style is a joy. The blade is thinner behind the edge than I was used to with other knives. It also has a thin tip, starting from 20mm at the end. Nice for some precision work.

The handle is quite large, which I like. A difference between this 240mm and the smaller blade models. And more important for me: it's wide. This gives me a better grip than I was used. No need to squeeze. 
This handle is about 18mm wide, my other (large) knives about 14mm. 

The black micarta material of the handle has some white marks. I've seen this before on my petty. But that was after some time of use. Now it's straight new from the box. Don't care too much

Reactivity? Yes, but not too bad. After cutting an onion there's already development of patina. But just at the core edge line which is aogami super; the rest of the knife has stainless steel.

Measurements are more or less as advertised: the knive is 370mm long, a blade of 240mm, 51mm wide and it weighs about 250 grams.


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## Benuser (May 25, 2018)

For photos, upload to an image host (e.g. postimages.org), and post here the link you get.
Example:


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## RolfK (May 25, 2018)

This last one is with a Shiki 210mm gyuto, showing the difference in smaller-bigger handle.


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## Benuser (May 25, 2018)

It works!


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## RolfK (May 25, 2018)

Well it worked out, after a lot of trial and error....
Sorry for the quality of the pictures, I'm not used to make detailed knife photo's.


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## Benuser (May 25, 2018)

Héhé...
Quality is fine, nothing to worry about.
The fourth one shows the common asymmetry: left face flat, in line with the tang. Right face slightly convexed, curving to the edge. Sides inversed on the photo of course.


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## RolfK (May 25, 2018)

Yes I was happy with the 4th one, I guess the best shot.
Understand the asymmetry, when blowing up the photo.

Thats also how to proceed sharpening right? (Have to wait for the #400 stone though, it wasnt on stock)

By the way: I dont mind if you like to see/try it. I live close in your area, in Haarlem.


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## Benuser (May 25, 2018)

Thanks a lot for your kind proposal, but I'm quite confident after knowing the 210 and the 150 petty. 
About sharpening a new blade: I start on the right side a bit behind the edge, at a very low angle, only raising the spine little by little. The aim is to create a convex bevel, in line with the convex face. I end at some 10-12 degree. The patina can give an indication whether you've reached the very edge. With a new or unknown knife you should make sure there's no micro-bevel. 
Once a clear burr has been raised I lightly deburr the left side with a fine stone or split leather at a much higher angle say 17 degree or so, before creating a straight bevel at that same angle. Again, make sure there's no micro-bevel. 
With the first stone I make small, scratching motions of one or two centimetres, perpendicular to the edge. 
I don't strop or deburr with the 400 as I want to keep some of that scratch pattern. 
After refining the edge you may verify for steering. 
If it steers clockwise thinning behind the edge on the right side is needed to reduce friction. Or to rise friction on the left side by raising the sharpening edge. 
What I suggested is a standard edge that works for me. Steering is a very individual question, depending on how you firm you hold it, and how you compensate -- by getting used to asymmetry.
Once you have balanced steering you should make sure to thin both sides with the next sharpenings.


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## Benuser (May 25, 2018)

The Deep Impact petty after a first sharpening. Note the small bevel on the left side.


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## RolfK (May 26, 2018)

Ok thks a lot for explaining. Not the kind of straight forward sharpening that I was used to...
Some questions to make sure I understand everything right:

1. How do you locate a micro bevel? And did you have them on your deep impact knives (should be the same as mine)?
2. You start sharpening at the right side a bit behind the edge. About 2 mm?
3. Do you mean to use only a #400 stone on the right side, no other finer stones? Just creating a burr?
4.Then move on to the left side and only use the finest stone to deburr (my #4000)?
5. The first stone sharpening with perpendicular moves is only at the right side? If so, the left side sharpening is also (or not) with perpendicular moves?


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## Benuser (May 26, 2018)

1. Have seen it on both sides of the Deep Impact petty, not on the gyuto. Depends on who did the sharpening I guess. A factory edge is a bit unpredictable, I'm afraid.
A first warning may be, before sharpening, to check, at which angle the edge bites into leather or cardboard. An angle between 30 and 60 degrees is a good indication to say the least. 
The Marker Trick will show a very thin line of ink.
2. I start on the right side at the lowest angle I'm comfortable with. Don't want to scratch the face of a brand new knife. 
3. I use the 400 to get rid of the factory edge, to build a new one and raise the burr. With the next stones the burr will appear by itself, as both bevels have met with the 400.
4. The purpose is to reduce the burr a bit. You can't remove it completely with a 400. I just want to make sure to create a new burr on the other side, and not only flip the old one. Reducing the old one one can be done with any means, a 800, 2k, cardboard, whatever you have.
5. I make the same perpendicular moves on the left side, until a clear burr appears along the entire edge. 

After the 400 I deburr on 800, make a short full sharpening on a Chosera 2k or 3k, and only strop and deburr on the finest stones.
No need to have the 400 scratch pattern completely polished out.


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## RolfK (May 26, 2018)

Is this true? I always thought the micro bevel will be removed at the same time when the factory edge is removed. Why worry about a micro bevel when I use a 400 stone? If it is there, it will be removed anyway.


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## Benuser (May 26, 2018)

Only if you have raised a very pronounced burr. Otherwise you may have overlooked a micro-bevel. Sharpen at say 15 degrees, believed you had reached the very edge. But the blade isn't as sharp as you expected. A damaged 40 degree micro-bevel is still there, you haven't really reached the very edge. And sharpening out a micro-bevel takes some time.


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## RolfK (May 26, 2018)

Yes ok, I understand. In general its true, but it takes some time to finally remove the micro bevel.
So first step is to find out if it is there or not. Then you know how to proceed.
By the way, did you remove or kept it on your petty? Some people like it....others not.


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## Benuser (May 26, 2018)

I first want to make sure the entire factory edge is gone, including the micro-bevel. I use a micro-bevel when I want an edge that the steel normally wouldn't hold.
Not the first problem with AS @64Rc.


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## RolfK (May 27, 2018)

I have searched for some tutorials about determine edges, using cardboard or markers.
But not much luck...
Any info on this forum?

I did cut in cardboard, but then how to evaluate the edge? Is a microscope needed?


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## Benuser (May 27, 2018)

Lay the blade flat on a piece of cardboard, leather, wood, whatever. Move it in the direction of the edge while raising the spine little by little until the edge bites. The angle the blade forms with the medium is slightly superior to the sharpening angle.
As for the marker trick: paint the bevel with a water resistant Edding and see where the ink goes away: that is where steel got abraded. If there's a very thin line of ink remaining on top of the edge you haven't reached the very edge. If it doesn't disappear with one or two more strokes it is probably a micro-bevel. Go on until it is gone.


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## Benuser (May 27, 2018)

I use a loupe of 8x. An inversed SLD standard lense will work as well.
Or a loupe-app on your smartphone.


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## Benuser (May 27, 2018)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB


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## RolfK (May 27, 2018)

Ha ha, I was doing it all wrong :O

Thks, the angle trick using cardboard and wood worked out. I've used different types of material, to get more or less reliable results. All give the same impression: the angle when the knife bites into the material is about 15-20 degrees. So I guess no micro-bevel on this gyuto. Good news isn't it?

About the earlier comments on sharpening. I've tried to understand what should be done and made a drawing. Is this the right way to proceed? Please correct me if I'm wrong...


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## Benuser (May 27, 2018)

I would take the left angle much higher. Please be aware that the edge is off-centered to the left. The higher angle on the left side is meant to balance the friction on both sides, and compensate a bit for the clockwise steering that otherwise occurs.


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## RolfK (May 27, 2018)

Yes true, the centre is wrong in the drawing. It's not in the middle.

So it's better to have a higher angle on the left side, say 15-20 degrees?


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## Benuser (May 27, 2018)

That's indeed how I do.


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