# Flipper alert



## RDalman

I should have marked it as scrap, as I sold it as that for material cost.


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## RDalman

And from what I understand you got your (60 bucks) payment for this one back from paypal


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## panda

lol


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## valgard

:bat:


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## Viggetorr

Nice try, Michael Thomas.


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## labor of love

Really obvious flipping going on here. It appears as though a new forum member who oddly enough just hit 50 posts has decided to resell a defective knife for $350. Its also a knife the maker issued a refund for so essentially the guy is trying sell something he received basically for free for $350 profit.


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## Nemo

This behaviour does not appear to be in the spirit of the forum and should be strongly discouraged.

Not to mention, it appears to have taken advantage of the extreme geneosity of the knifemaker in question.


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## Nemo

Sticky this thread?


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## luther

A shameful attempt :headbonk:


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## RDalman

I didn't issue a refund, paypal did.. They decided to fund both parties.


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## Brucewml

Sounds terriable.


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## Matus

I think that admin should remove this tread and have a private chat with the OP [emoji52]


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## Von blewitt

My 2c talking as a member not a mod

He has disclosed that he bought it as a second, Robin has chimed in and made clear the original price paid, if someone is willing to pay the money with the information they have that is their perogative.

I also happen to be the owner of one of Robins knives that was bought with a fault for a ridiculously low price, I however won't try and profit from it.


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## gic

Worse than flipping IMHO


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## Salty dog

Yep, if the members want to be stupid let them be stupid. Or, if you want to screw the members screw the members. Good ole capitalism right?


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## mise_en_place

Certainly a strange situation. 

That knife's definitely worth more than the cost of its materials, but this is such a lame move by the poster. I say ban him from BST for being a d-bag to the Nth degree.


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## Jacob_x

As has been discussed at length, I don't think banning is gonna do anything, neither do I think the mods will do so. A new account with different name and email isn't exactly hard to do. All we can do it flag the sale here as labor has, and call this ******** out and ignore his forum contributions. And if we come across his name in future transactions, don't buy from him or sell to him, and thus we take back what control we can exert on our little community.


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## Matus

Had Robin not intervened, that it would look like the OP got the knife with a discount and is selling it, give or take, for a comparable sum. Now that it turned out that he got the knife basically for free, it puts the whole thing in a different light and would at the end of the day make Robin look bad - like he had sold a knife with defects for $350. So no, I am not going to sit back and watch.


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## panda

comment on all of his future for sale ads a link to this thread


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## Xenif

Thanks for calling it out, pure attempt to make money. Just wished that RDalman wouldve sold it to me for that price [emoji51]. I feel bad for the maker because I feel his generosity was taken advantage of, this kind of behaviour discourages him from offering seconds to people (like me) who cannot afford one or someone who whats to try his work before taking the full plunge. If we allow things like this, the maker will loose respect for the community and the community will loose respect for it self, and without respect the community will slowly erode into nothing. 

Let *US* be the strength that holds our community together, like the varnish that holds our Jnats together.


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## FoRdLaz

Robin is a gentleman. OP shame on you for trying to profit from Robins generosity.


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## chinacats

Thanks LOL.


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## chinacats

Sad...EBay is a better market for such a sale...


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## Anton

The Flipper Fellowship


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## RDalman

Thanks for being good people guys. Great community, as I was recently proven also on the recent meetup in germany &#128077;&#128591;


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## Jovidah

Absolutely shameless. Thanks to Robin for calling it out. And this is exactly the worrying trend that caused some of us to speak out in the thread on flipping.


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## MontezumaBoy

Lets not forget that the SOB went after PayPal for a refund as well - my assumption is that he said the product was defective which then required Robin to follow up with them just to keep bloody $60 for a product that Robin spent quite a bit of time on (so he moves from SOB to D'bag in my mind) ... I would add that this BS slowed down Robin's knife production - that alone should get him banned from B/S/T ...


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## labor of love

Von blewitt said:


> My 2c talking as a member not a mod
> 
> He has disclosed that he bought it as a second, Robin has chimed in and made clear the original price paid, if someone is willing to pay the money with the information they have that is their perogative.
> 
> I also happen to be the owner of one of Robins knives that was bought with a fault for a ridiculously low price, I however won't try and profit from it.



Robins comments are here and not on the for sale thread...where they belong IMO.


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## HRC_64

MontezumaBoy said:


> Lets not forget that the SOB went after PayPal for a refund as well...




Yikes


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## Dave Martell

If, and that's a big _*IF*_, I ever sell a 2nd again I'll mark it as such so there's no question what it is. I've had the same thing happen to me as Robin and as a maker it sucks. This is bad for everyone, well, except for the deceiver of course.


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## JaVa

Yeah, not a good look for the OP. I'd looove to have gotten my hands on any of Robins very generous practice offerings he does from time to time. His such a great guy for doing it. I would have appreciated it properly. Never would have sold it. And if I'd ever had to, I'd certainly would've passed that generosity forward. 

So happy Robin called the guy out. Well done! :doublethumbsup:
I hope this doesn't discourage Robin from doing this in the future. There's so much other great guys who'd appreciate it and act accordingly.


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## RDalman

I typically offer the rare reject to trusted customers. This one was a chance I shouldn't have taken. Anyway I think good of folks and will keep with that, no worries


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## RDalman

This is how I felt when I saw the sale post this morning ;D; https://www.instagram.com/p/BiJtAqYAMJ2/

If you're ever buying a second hand Dalman, feel free to reach out with a pic of it to me for any info about it.


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## Godslayer

RDalman said:


> I typically offer the rare reject to trusted customers. This one was a chance I shouldn't have taken. Anyway I think good of folks and will keep with that, no worries



I want more seconds  the trusted hunter still comes on hikes and gave my dad the kiridashi (is an actual carpenter by trade) traded the pettysuki, kind of miss it but owning a honesuki it because sadly redundant.


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## Matus

labor of love said:


> Robins comments are here and not on the for sale thread...where they belong IMO.



They were moved here when Dave closed the WTS thread.


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## Jville

Yeah I'm glad he was called out for the attempt. I was initially intrigued, because I've wanted to get or at the very least try a dalman for quite some time.


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## Chicagohawkie

Good call out Robin. What a scumbag.


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## Timthebeaver

What a wanchor. Absolutely shameless.


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## Edge

Jacob_x said:


> As has been discussed at length, I don't think banning is gonna do anything, neither do I think the mods will do so. A new account with different name and email isn't exactly hard to do. All we can do it flag the sale here as labor has, and call this ******** out and ignore his forum contributions. And if we come across his name in future transactions, don't buy from him or sell to him, and thus we take back what control we can exert on our little community.



In the next few weeks the forum will be changing to XenForo software. One of the neat features, all new members registrations are checked against Spam and banned members. In names, IP addresses and emails. A little more difficult than in vB.


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## Jacob_x

Angie said:


> In the next few weeks the forum will be changing to XenForo software. One of the neat features, all new members registrations are checked against Spam and banned members. In names, IP addresses and emails. A little more difficult than in vB.



That's pretty cool. Thanks for letting us know! 
Out of interest, has this member been banned, or just the sale thread closed? Obviously this has been talked about at length and I don't want to flog a dead horse, but if it's the former, have the bst rules been updated to make it clear that sort of behaviour won't be tolerated?


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## Godslayer

Jacob_x said:


> That's pretty cool. Thanks for letting us know!
> Out of interest, has this member been banned, or just the sale thread closed? Obviously this has been talked about at length and I don't want to flog a dead horse, but if it's the former, have the bst rules been updated to make it clear that sort of behaviour won't be tolerated?



He's still here from what I can tell, had to check on marcs old profile to see what someone banned actually looks like for comparison.


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## Dave Martell

There's definitely some banned members here with sockpuppet accounts.


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## Godslayer

Dave Martell said:


> There's definitely some banned members here with sockpuppet accounts.



Oh my god... Your secretly Pierre aren't you :O :nunchucks:


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## WildBoar

Godslayer said:


> He's still here from what I can tell, had to check on marcs old profile to see what someone banned actually looks like for comparison.


:spitcoffee:

I will admit that made me laugh.

Marc is alive and well. He had plenty of eye-popping hardware at the ECG yesterday. And while he is on the Fora, he is mainly active on IG these days.


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## Godslayer

WildBoar said:


> :spitcoffee:
> 
> I will admit that made me laugh.
> 
> Marc is alive and well. He had plenty of eye-popping hardware at the ECG yesterday. And while he is on the Fora, he is mainly active on IG these days.



No worries, he liked my instagram post earlier today, something about regretting wearing sweat pants while looking at his cris anderson gyuto.


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## labor of love

Fora is the forum of the banned.


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## WildBoar

labor of love said:


> Fora is the forum of the banned.


I didn't realize that. Marc was on both BBSs at the time. Some other memorable KKForum members who were banned are not on KKFora.


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## brainsausage

WildBoar said:


> I didn't realize that. Marc was on both BBSs at the time. Some other memorable KKForum members who were banned are not on KKFora.



Pretty sure Craig was trying to make a funny. I laughed anyways


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## labor of love

I miss Marc. My funnies arent funny I guess. But yeah, theres a quite abit of ex kkfers doing their thing at fora.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@RDalman would it not be advisable to come up with some second maker's mark that you only apply to what meets your own quality standards 1000%, so anything you sell as seconds or experimental will clearly be recognizable as such unless someone is willing to commit actual forgery?


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## RDalman

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @RDalman would it not be advisable to come up with some second maker's mark that you only apply to what meets your own quality standards 1000%, so anything you sell as seconds or experimental will clearly be recognizable as such unless someone is willing to commit actual forgery?



What I will be doing is either stamp in some xx over the logo, or grind it off, in case I finish a "second".


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## gaijin

Analogous with a certain stone seller, you might just consider adding a poop to the logo? #jnspoop


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## RDalman

gaijin said:


> Analogous with a certain stone seller, you might just consider adding a poop to the logo? #jnspoop



That's a good idea. I'll lookup poop kanji.


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## esoo

RDalman said:


> What I will be doing is either stamp in some xx over the logo, or grind it off, in case I finish a "second".



Adding a mark on top, or second mark is a smarter idea. That way you can say all of your legit knives have a maker's mark. If you grind the mark off, someone could try and pass off some other knife as one of yours.


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## Godslayer

RDalman said:


> That's a good idea. I'll lookup poop kanji.



Maybe not a poop imoji lol, look up "sample" or "tester" id feel like **** if I was cooking a meal for my family and the maker said the knife was crap in such an outright fashion


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## RDalman

Evan I didn't expect you to be that sensitive:running:. I could stamp in "mr Hankey" then maybe for a more classy poo.


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## Godslayer

RDalman said:


> Evan I didn't expect you to be that sensitive:running:. I could stamp in "mr Hankey" then maybe for a more classy poo.



What can I say around my knives I'm one step away from a parent. And Mr hanky would be hilarious.


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## Xenif

I second the idea of puting Mr. Hankey in japanese on the seconds (no pun intended). &#12511;&#12473;&#12479;&#12540;&#12495;&#12491;&#12540; , would look like a Misono
And It would be pretty funny to see it on the Antique Roadshow in the future, having an expert explain why it say that.


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## daveb

RDalman said:


> Evan I didn't expect you to be that sensitive:running:. I could stamp in "mr Hankey" then maybe for a more classy poo.


Like[emoji41]


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## maxim

I think i should charge same prices as they do on BST right now for Shigefusa  They make even more profit then me without paying taxes and costume fees


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## panda

i remember when i bought one only 4 years ago at half the going rate these days.


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## chinacats

maxim said:


> I think i should charge same prices as they do on BST right now for Shigefusa  They make even more profit then me without paying taxes and costume fees




And without the overhead of running a business...I think you should also raise prices on Kato to meet the current market conditions. Situation totally out of hand...


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## Panamapeet

chinacats said:


> And without the overhead of running a business...I think you should also raise prices on Kato to meet the current market conditions. Situation totally out of hand...


Noooo not on Kato :nunchucks::rofl2:


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## Jville

maxim said:


> I think i should charge same prices as they do on BST right now for Shigefusa  They make even more profit then me without paying taxes and costume fees



Plz don't. We need to ban together against the price gauging, where people recognize it and call people out. This would be a better deterrent. If prices are just simply raised then, people that guage will just raise them more.


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## labor of love

Raise the prices for both Kato and Shig, it would be advantageous for people that actually want to own them. Probably wouldnt sell out as fast.


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## Jville

labor of love said:


> Raise the prices for both Kato and Shig, it would be advantageous for people that actually want to own them. Probably wouldnt sell out as fast.



Uggh.. I see the logic behind it, but it also makes it harder for those who really want it and have trouble affording. People that come into with a business aspect will just look at as expense, but still see profit to be made.


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## labor of love

Jville said:


> Uggh.. I see the logic behind it, but it also makes it harder for those who really want it and have trouble affording. People that come into with a business aspect will just look at as expense, but still see profit to be made.



But maybe less flipping profit means...less flipping?


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## labor of love

And lets just admit it, we have have like a 1 in a million chance of scoring a brand new shig/kato gyuto from maxim these days.


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## Chicagohawkie

JNS could charge whatever they want for katos. Not like you have any other options if you want a knife by a 50 years master swordsmith. This is a perfect example of how ridiculous this argument is! Careful what you wish for people!


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## Jville

labor of love said:


> And lets just admit it, we have have like a 1 in a million chance of scoring a brand new shig/kato gyuto from maxim these days.



Yeah there is some possible truth to your points, but I still don't like it. And I'd rather take my chances scoring or getting it from a member who will sell reasonably. Not everyone flips. If you raise the prices than everyone else just also had to raise prices to compensate. It just makes it worse

I agree with Chicago.


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## labor of love

We can just agree to disagree, haha. I really dont think that shigs and Katos will always be resold at +$500 retail no matter what the retail is. Surely theres a breaking point.


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## Anton

labor of love said:


> We can just agree to disagree, haha. I really dont think that shigs and Katos will always be resold at +$500 retail no matter what the retail is. Surely theres a breaking point.



I hope so, but I don't see how the retail price will stay at current levels and not inch it's way up to market demand. Or until the next "hot" "low production" knife comes out.


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## HRC_64

Just go back to waiting lists.


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## HRC_64

This kills the flipper


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## Christian1

Don't know if this has been said or not, but its what I do when I am selling items on nice forums. Usually I will do quick posting history of someone. Sometimes it can help item find a good home for good price, without someone flipping it.


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## Pensacola Tiger

HRC_64 said:


> Just go back to waiting lists.



Or a lottery like Bloodroot Blades uses.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Name the usable seconds "extra wabi-sabi"


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## Barmoley

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Or a lottery like Bloodroot Blades uses.



This is a good idea. Makes it more fair than what is going on now with some people clearly using bots or something to keep on getting katos and shigs more often than pure chance would allow. As for prices going up, they should. Anything that sells in seconds and then is flipped right away for large profit is clearly priced too low from the source.


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## brainsausage

Barmoley said:


> This is a good idea. Makes it more fair than what is going on now with some people clearly using bots or something to keep on getting katos and shigs more often than pure chance would allow. As for prices going up, they should. Anything that sells in seconds and then is flipped right away for large profit is clearly priced too low from the source.



Nah, its the rarity aspect. Has nothing to do with price. Ive seen $200 limited edition sneakers that sold out within minutes, and were being flipped within minutes on resell sites for a 200% markup with only screenshots of the sale page from the original retail site. Hype is a business that cares not for market pressures.


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## chinacats

I think if Maxim raises the prices it gets closer to what the market is willing to bear and the profit is his rather than some jackass who buys to flip.


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## Pensacola Tiger

chinacats said:


> I think if Maxim raises the prices it gets closer to what the market is willing to bear and the profit is his rather than some jackass who buys to flip.



Flipping isn't going to go away, as long as there are people want the knife and are willing to pay for it. Part of what drives this is perceived scarcity, and knives selling within minutes of Maksim's posting them is part of this, I'm afraid, since the average working person who wants to buy one and not flip it is competing with the flippers who are just waiting for Maksim's email to pounce. A waiting list or lottery are ways to make the purchasing process more fair to the working person, and to provide the perception that one's patience may be rewarded.


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## labor of love

Waiting list+price increase. Everybody wins?


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## ramenlegend

SHIG ALERT! 2 available on bst! :tease: I got super excited because I was the first to view the yoshihide....


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## panda

i hope the shig/kato hype train continues, keeps the trend away from knives i actually want.


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## chinacats

panda said:


> i hope the shig/kato hype train continues, keeps the trend away from knives i actually want.



Yep...


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## Barmoley

I am all for it, I already cant or willing to afford these. Price has everything to do with it, hype or not. There is a price at which these will not sell for hours or days or ever. The only reason flipping is possible is because Maxim sells these too low for what the market thinks these are worth. We can argue about why people think these are worth these prices, hype or otherwise....

Lottery or list would be more fair, but I dont expect Maxim to bother and complicate his life.


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## maxim

For the price increase it was meant as a joke  i think on the knife forum there is no place for flippers as we all care about knives and don't want to see our beloved makers taken advantage of 
For the lottery/ list thing i explained it before, i had just now 8 katos for sale, all went to a different person, different country, 5 of them to a new costumers. 
When i had list lottery, i had to wait for reply sometimes it was months, then i had to wait for payments it was time again, i never know what i get so i can not really take orders say gyutos sujis etc. 
Prepayments i will never take as i dont know what future bring maybe i never get the knife, maybe i get run over by a car next week  And i hate to hold the money


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## Jville

maxim said:


> For the price increase it was meant as a joke  i think on the knife forum there is no place for flippers as we all care about knives and don't want to see our beloved makers taken advantage of
> For the lottery/ list thing i explained it before, i had just now 8 katos for sale, all went to a different person, different country, 5 of them to a new costumers.
> When i had list lottery, i had to wait for reply sometimes it was months, then i had to wait for payments it was time again, i never know what i get so i can not really take orders say gyutos sujis etc.
> Prepayments i will never take as i dont know what future bring maybe i never get the knife, maybe i get run over by a car next week  And i hate to hold the money



This is my favorite answer :doublethumbsup:


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## esoo

Flippers exist due to there being a market for them. Buying "low" and selling high works because there is someone that is willing to buy high for a item that is perceived to be rare and special. If people stop over paying to flippers, the market drys up for them and they go away as they work for the profit. The problem is that people seem to have more money than brains, and the forums always seem to be hyping the next big knife which then suddenly becomes rare due to supply and demand for the handmade knives.


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## chinacats

esoo said:


> Flippers exist due to there being a market for them. Buying "low" and selling high works because there is someone that is willing to buy high for a item that is perceived to be rare and special. If people stop over paying to flippers, the market drys up for them and they go away as they work for the profit. The problem is that people seem to have more money than brains, and the forums always seem to be hyping the next big knife which then suddenly becomes rare due to supply and demand for the handmade knives.



We've long ago determined the reason people flip knives...but it seems to be making this less of a community and more of a marketplace...wish the ******** responsible would take this **** elsewhere...go make a profit on eBay and stop trying to ruin the community that has been built over the years. BST was always a place you could go to try a knife you were interested in buying but couldn't get...shigs and katos, etc were almost always sold at reasonable prices (less than retail)...agreed that people willing to pay these prices are driving the bst and that is the annoyance...never seemed to be an issue in years past...prices were too high and the knives would sit...now it's ask as much as you can and flip the knife almost instantly...which sucks for the newer members of the community who truly only wish to try these knives...fortunately I've had my fill of shigs and katos but bummer for the community as a whole...and bummer for honest vendors like Maxim (and the makers themselves) who initially brought these knives to the community and unfortunately see none of the profit. I was really hopeful something would come out of the recent bst discussion and still think PT's idea from the shaving forum would help return this to more of a forum of like minded individuals and less of a full out get what you can profit center.


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## esoo

chinacats said:


> .wish the ******** responsible would take this **** elsewhere...go make a profit on eBay and stop trying to ruin the community that has been built over the years.



The problem is that as long as buyers pay the flippers price here on the BST, then the flippers will come here to sell. So it is the community, or at least a part of it, that is bringing the flippers to the BST.


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## brainsausage

esoo said:


> The problem is that as long as buyers pay the flippers price here on the BST, then the flippers will come here to sell. So it is the community, or at least a part of it, that is bringing the flippers to the BST.



Unfortunate but true.


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## milkbaby

esoo said:


> The problem is that as long as buyers pay the flippers price here on the BST, then the flippers will come here to sell. So it is the community, or at least a part of it, that is bringing the flippers to the BST.



Well said... Making them move to eBay or other sites just removes the bitching about flipping on BST but probably won't do much to discourage flipping.


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## labor of love

milkbaby said:


> Well said... Making them move to eBay or other sites just removes the bitching about flipping on BST but probably won't do much to discourage flipping.



It could also remove the bitching about the bitching &#128578;


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## labor of love

esoo said:


> The problem is that as long as buyers pay the flippers price here on the BST, then the flippers will come here to sell. So it is the community, or at least a part of it, that is bringing the flippers to the BST.



Theres plenty of hardcore members here that do a great job contributing to the forum and buy/sell/trade shigs and Katos. But I think if you sort through BST youll notice quite a contingent of people with 20-150 posts are doing much of sellling and buying too. Im not complaining here, but the community may not be the most apt phrase to use.


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## Chicagohawkie

There has always been flippers here. The flippers who people seem to love, flippers people like to hate and anything in between. Whats changed is that everyone here thinks they should be able to get a Shig or a kato for what they were going for years ago.


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## brainsausage

Chicagohawkie said:


> There has always been flippers here. The flippers who people seem to love, flippers people like to hate and anything in between. Whats changed is that everyone here thinks they should be able to get a Shig or a kato for what they were going for years ago.



Always is an interesting choice of phrase in this context, one Id highly disagree with. And while yes, some would prefer to get a shig or Kato at 2013 prices, Ive yet to see anyone explicitly state that that is their sole grievance regarding the matter at hand. Im catching a whiff of hyperbole here.


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## Chicagohawkie

As far back as the time ended where you could get knives direct from manufactures. You joined when one could send an international money order and grab a takeda for 150 bucks. Back then things were available and relatively inexpensive. Back then you bought knives for 200 and change that cost well over a grand now.


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## labor of love

Im not really interested in bringing up all this again. All the valid points have already been made. The mods have already decided that flipping is here to stay.
But the following are all straw man fallacies.
-KKF members that wish to end to public flipping at this forum believe it will put an end to all knife flipping on the internet
-we can somehow all appreciate circa 2013 shig/kato prices if we simply forbid flipping on this forum
-we want the mods to track the retail value and history of every knife that is to be sold in BST
-something something screw the free market something 
It is extremely difficult to a have a discussion about such a contentious issue while at same time deal with an opposing view point that is misrepresenting many of the points weve made.


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## brainsausage

This type of discussion inevitably turns to talks of socio-economic concerns/late stage capitalism/ethics which leads directly to the always dreaded POLITICS, which may not be uttered under any circumstances on this forum!


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## maxim

brainsausage said:


> This type of discussion inevitably turns to talks of socio-economic concerns/late stage capitalism/ethics which leads directly to the always dreaded POLITICS, which may not be uttered under any circumstances on this forum!


It don't have to be, there can be just info available, similar to Amazon ( not that amazon is perfect ) But if seller and item listed have one star then people will not buy. I think it should be possible for people to call flippers out on this forum, and point out that this price is not right at all, link the right current price of the product etc, not only mods but all of us, i think it is right thing to do if we want to keep this as a forum and not flipper marked place


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## Jville

maxim said:


> It don't have to be, there can be just info available, similar to Amazon ( not that amazon is perfect ) But if seller and item listed have one star then people will not buy. I think it should be possible for people to call flippers out on this forum, and point out that this price is not right at all, link the right current price of the product etc, not only mods but all of us, i think it is right thing to do if we want to keep this as a forum and not flipper marked place



+++1... This has been my stance all along.


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## charlesquik

maxim said:


> It don't have to be, there can be just info available, similar to Amazon ( not that amazon is perfect ) But if seller and item listed have one star then people will not buy. I think it should be possible for people to call flippers out on this forum, and point out that this price is not right at all, link the right current price of the product etc, not only mods but all of us, i think it is right thing to do if we want to keep this as a forum and not flipper marked place



Yes, but its against the rules. I recently replied to a BST for a knife that was discontinued, but the price was 200$ USD more than street price and I told so. Got removed from BST for 2 weeks....


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## maxim

charlesquik said:


> Yes, but its against the rules. I recently replied to a BST for a knife that was discontinued, but the price was 200$ USD more than street price and I told so. Got removed from BST for 2 weeks....


Yep  then it is not helping forum anymore, but selling forum. I thought forums was for helping people to choose or to find the best price etc


----------



## ramenlegend

maxim said:


> Yep  then it is not helping forum anymore, but selling forum. I thought forums was for helping people to choose or to find the best price etc



Good to see you commenting on this Maksim. Do you think that when you get in a batch of knives, one or two knives could be "lottery knives"? I haven't even been close to getting the opportunity to buy a Shig or Kato from you in years. If there is a lottery, I at least have a slim chance of getting one.


----------



## panda

i kind of want to try to land one of these, then sell on bst for same price i got it for so that someone who genuinely wants one gets a fair shake at getting one without inflated price. then maybe the good karma will come back my way when i'm trying to find a rare piece.


----------



## bahamaroot

I've never come close to getting a Koto or Shig either. By the time I receive an email notification and sign into the website they are already gone. A lottery system will be the only way I will ever get one. And this is the main reason there is flipping. I would probably pay the $1000 flipping price just because I would love to have a Kato that badly but hell, I can't even catch one fast enough that's being flipped!


----------



## Jville

panda said:


> i kind of want to try to land one of these, then sell on bst for same price i got it for so that someone who genuinely wants one gets a fair shake at getting one without inflated price. then maybe the good karma will come back my way when i'm trying to find a rare piece.



Sounds like an excellent idea! You could sell it to me :biggrin:


----------



## swarth

Lotteries tend to make prices increase. Some raffles out there...interesting...but likely illegal.


----------



## swarth

One more time.... Open negotiations.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

swarth said:


> Lotteries tend to make prices increase. Some raffles out there...interesting...but likely illegal.



How does a lottery like the one Bloodroot Blades uses make prices increase?


----------



## swarth

Pensacola Tiger said:


> How does a lottery like the one Bloodroot Blades uses make prices increase?



I have no idea what Bloodroot does...but if looking for an example...Kramer.


----------



## esoo

Kramer runs an auction for pre-made blades (which becomes ridiculous) and then a lottery to get to make the blade of your choice (last I checked)


----------



## swarth

So has the lottery kept prices low? Or knives from being flipped?


----------



## esoo

Well, the point of the lottery is not to keep the price low. Kramer charges what Kramer charges for a knife. But the lottery keeps it from being a to race of who can put the knife in the cart first for the price.


----------



## toddnmd

swarth said:


> So has the lottery kept prices low? Or knives from being flipped?



Lotteries are used when a maker is in demand, and they want to keep prices below what the market will bear. It's also a way to get a higher percentage of knives directly in the hands of people who want to use them, not to flip them. But it's hardly the lottery that is causing prices to rise, nor for people to want to flip them for profit. 

In the end, I think a lottery does keep prices lower, reduces flipping, and help deliver the knives to a higher percentage of users than flippers.


----------



## swarth

toddnmd said:


> Lotteries are used when a maker is in demand, and they want to keep prices below what the market will bear. It's also a way to get a higher percentage of knives directly in the hands of people who want to use them, not to flip them. But it's hardly the lottery that is causing prices to rise, nor for people to want to flip them for profit.
> 
> In the end, I think a lottery does keep prices lower, reduces flipping, and help deliver the knives to a higher percentage of users than flippers.



There is nothing to prevent someone from flipping a knife purchased thru a lottery. And if lotteries do keep prices lower than the market...it will encourage flipping. Back to square one.


----------



## esoo

swarth said:


> There is nothing to prevent someone from flipping a knife purchased thru a lottery. And if lotteries do keep prices lower than the market...it will encourage flipping. Back to square one.



of course there will be a certain proportion of flippers on the lottery list, but the people that stick on the list for a longer portion of time will be people that actually want a blade from that vendor.


----------



## swarth

Not sure I follow that logic.


----------



## Nomsdotcom

esoo said:


> of course there will be a certain proportion of flippers on the lottery list, but the people that stick on the list for a longer portion of time will be people that actually want a blade from that vendor.


Most of the time I see IG lotteries/raffle style sales it's just a random jumble of people. I think there might be a difference between the types of sales where someone is picked at random and then pays full knife price. Versus when someone pays $30 for a spot, and then wins a $500 dollar knife. Seems like they would be much more likely to flip a knife they'd only invested $30 dollars in, netting them a healthy profit.


----------



## inzite

People should be required to sign a form (with scan of ID) and provide employment information that they work in a pro environment and/or provide photos of their vast collection that they are collectors and not flippers, this prevent flippers from participating in lotteries.

Also I think the mods should expand the mod team to constantly monitor online stores for prices for different knives/products and include them in a sticky post here so everyone can see the price of the product more or less live - this way folks can identify flippers vs non flippers. Also would be cool if we can have the vendors here constantly supply the knives in demand to the mods and admins and they list them in BST at same vendor prices (there should be a tracking system as to who has bought one recently vs one who has not, we should beef up the forum sign up to include IDs required to avoid dupe accounts as well). This way folks don't need to risk buying from a mystery reseller and possible flipper prices.


----------



## esoo

inzite said:


> People should be required to sign a form (with scan of ID) and provide employment information that they work in a pro environment and/or provide photos of their vast collection that they are collectors and not flippers, this prevent flippers from participating in lotteries.



So you're saying that because I'm a home cook with 6 knives total that I can't participate in a lottery?


----------



## WildBoar

Geeze, that would kill B/S/T, as no one would be able to keep up with what you are requesting. And I am sure Mods do not want to be middle men.

If you are a buyer, just do your own dang due diligence, and don't expect others to be responsible to keep you from 'overpaying.' In my opinion the main thing the Mods need to watch for are those who are using B/S/T as a business instead of being registered as a vendor.


----------



## inzite

esoo said:


> So you're saying that because I'm a home cook with 6 knives total that I can't participate in a lottery?



yes! neither can i.


----------



## inzite

WildBoar said:


> Geeze, that would kill B/S/T, as no one would be able to keep up with what you are requesting. And I am sure Mods do not want to be middle men.
> 
> If you are a buyer, just do your own dang due diligence, and don't expect others to be responsible to keep you from 'overpaying.' In my opinion the main thing the Mods need to watch for are those who are using B/S/T as a business instead of being registered as a vendor.



its short term pain imo and would totally provide the governance bst needs.


----------



## inzite

WildBoar said:


> Geeze, that would kill B/S/T, as no one would be able to keep up with what you are requesting. And I am sure Mods do not want to be middle men.
> 
> If you are a buyer, just do your own dang due diligence, and don't expect others to be responsible to keep you from 'overpaying.' In my opinion the main thing the Mods need to watch for are those who are using B/S/T as a business instead of being registered as a vendor.



but you really arent a business unless you really are a business. it's going to be hard to define the line imo. someone can say blah blah they got it and now they just want to let it go at mkt prices (which nothing is wrong with that)


----------



## bahamaroot

You are not going to stop flippers regardless of what rules you come up with. Trying to make it harder to flip here will probably just make it harder for the everyday Joe to sell a knife while the flipper will just do it through PMs or on one of the many other forums open to them. They will still make their money.

If you want the knife and are willing to pay the price then do it, if not then don't. It's that easy and all you can really do.


----------



## chinacats

bahamaroot said:


> You are not going to stop flippers regardless of what rules you come up with. Trying to make it harder to flip here will probably just make it harder for the everyday Joe to sell a knife while the flipper will just do it through PMs or on one of the many other forums open to them. They will still make their money.
> 
> If you want the knife and are willing to pay the price then do it, if not then don't. It's that easy and all you can really do.



The whole point is to get them to go somewhere else...and stop ruining this place...


----------



## ashy2classy

panda said:


> i kind of want to try to land one of these, then sell on bst for same price i got it for so that someone who genuinely wants one gets a fair shake at getting one without inflated price. then maybe the good karma will come back my way when i'm trying to find a rare piece.



I was lucky enough to snag a Kato WH 240 from JNS earlier this year. Knowing another forum member was looking for one, I sold it to him at a slightly higher price so I could net what I paid after shipping. Worked out for everyone because I realized right after I purchased it that I'd never use it, but for some reason I wanted to buy it because it was available. LOL!


----------



## Edge

inzite said:


> People should be required to sign a form (with scan of ID) and provide employment information that they work in a pro environment and/or provide photos of their vast collection that they are collectors and not flippers, this prevent flippers from participating in lotteries.
> 
> Also I think the mods should expand the mod team to constantly monitor online stores for prices for different knives/products and include them in a sticky post here so everyone can see the price of the product more or less live - this way folks can identify flippers vs non flippers. Also would be cool if we can have the vendors here constantly supply the knives in demand to the mods and admins and they list them in BST at same vendor prices (there should be a tracking system as to who has bought one recently vs one who has not, we should beef up the forum sign up to include IDs required to avoid dupe accounts as well). This way folks don't need to risk buying from a mystery reseller and possible flipper prices.



Are you trying to be funny?


----------



## panda

what really ruins it for us are the buyers with too much money who are willing to pay inflated prices, *cough collectors


----------



## Godslayer

Angie said:


> Are you trying to be funny?



Pretty sure this is hyperbole


----------



## tgfencer

Angie said:


> Are you trying to be funny?



One can only hope. You mean to say that giant pile of work doesn't sound fun to you mods....


----------



## ashy2classy

panda said:


> what really ruins it for us are the buyers with too much money who are willing to pay inflated prices, *cough collectors



I don't mean to perpetuate this thread, but I agree with this statement 100%. Which means I'm part of the problem (aside from having too much money :biggrin. I'm not a collector but wanted to see what the hype was all about. I overpaid for my Kato standard and WH because I knew I had little to no chance in finding others for sale. That's the problem - collector's aside, people like me that want to get our hands on these knives and USE THEM need to pay to play otherwise we'll be waiting (maybe) forever to find them at reasonable prices. Is it possible to find them - sure - but you gotta be extremely lucky with timing. It's a cycle that will never end as long as there are people willing to pay up for whatever reason. It will only end when demand has fallen to a level where nobody cares about them because there are other "IT" knives that have higher demand. *SHRUG* 

I'm sure pretty much anything on this subject has already been said 10 times...


----------



## Godslayer

Ban kato and shigs from bst, end this whole discussion. Easy peasy.


----------



## ashy2classy

Godslayer said:


> Ban kato and shigs from bst, end this whole discussion. Easy peasy.



BOOM. Shut down the thread, mods. :rofl2:


----------



## panda

kamikoto knives should have hype. nothing under 1k will be acceptable


----------



## inzite

Angie said:


> Are you trying to be funny?



nope, just suggesting a potential solution to the flippering.


----------



## inzite

Godslayer said:


> Ban kato and shigs from bst, end this whole discussion. Easy peasy.



or this. just dont allow items over 300 usd.


----------



## bahamaroot

panda said:


> what really ruins it for us are the buyers with too much money who are willing to pay inflated prices, *cough collectors


Those like me have to pay the inflated prices or we will never be able to experience some of these rare knives. When something is rare and in demand you pay a premium for it. It's that way for any material item and knives are no exception. That's just how the world works.


----------



## chinacats

bahamaroot said:


> Those like me have to pay the inflated prices or we will never be able to experience some of these rare knives. When something is rare and in demand you pay a premium for it. It's that way for any material item and knives are no exception. That's just how the world works.



Again, this is how the outside world works...up until about 2 years ago it wasn't how this forum worked...


----------



## labor of love

chinacats said:


> Again, this is how the outside world works...up until about 2 years ago it wasn't how this forum worked...



Really just blows my mind how so many people can argue against a position that they choose not to understand in the first place.


----------



## panda

why do you even want to experience these rare knives, simply because they are rare right?


----------



## bahamaroot

labor of love said:


> Really just blows my mind how so many people can argue against a position that they choose not to understand in the first place.


I understand the position just fine Mr. Arrogance. I'm not arguing for or against anything just stating how it is. You can take your holier than thou attitude all you want but it doesn't change how it is.


----------



## ashy2classy

panda said:


> why do you even want to experience these rare knives, simply because they are rare right?



As an aside, when I read this thread I always think it's referring to Katos and Shigs...

For me personally, the rarity aspect had absolutely nothing to do with it. I wanted to experience for myself what others have described in a multitude of reviews - the outstanding construction, finish and performance of Katos and Shigs. I get it, you don't care about owning any of these "rare" knives, but I wanted to see what all the fuss was about, and at the same time own a blade made by renowned smiths that likely won't be around much longer. That last part most certainly sounds like "collector" talk, and partially for the Shig, is the reason I'm keeping mine. But the Katos, wow, I'm impressed and won't be giving them up antyime soon if I can help it.


----------



## labor of love

bahamaroot said:


> I understand the position just fine Mr. Arrogance. I'm not arguing for or against anything just stating how it is. You can take your holier than thou attitude all you want but it doesn't change how it is.



Take a deep breathe then exhale. Then ask yourself if that was necessary. Thanks for a lesson in how the world works.


----------



## panda

i'm willing to bet that the kippington workhorse that is on a passaround right now is better than any kato at a third of the cost. but it too is rare af cause he is currently not making any more knives lol


----------



## Godslayer

panda said:


> i'm willing to bet that the kippington workhorse that is on a passaround right now is better than any kato at a third of the cost. but it too is rare af cause he is currently not making any more knives lol



for the price of a kato, you can get a full custom from haburn or catchside , both will outperform, be stupidly good looking and have better materials... I had a kato, I sold it because the hype wasn't even close to what people say they are, honestly my takamura petty out performed it at every task besides coring leeks and cost 120 bucks vs the 550 the kato most recently sold for


----------



## ashy2classy

panda said:


> i'm willing to bet that the kippington workhorse that is on a passaround right now is better than any kato at a third of the cost. but it too is rare af cause he is currently not making any more knives lol



My last post on the subject because we could go on and on about this forever (which has pretty much been done already)...

Nobody's arguing there are knives that perform the same or better for a MUCH lower price. It's clear from your many posts that you don't care about the intangibles that (IMO) come with these highly sought-after knives. Flippers are successful because they know many of us DO care about these things and, unfortunately, are willing to pay the price to see what it's all about. And yes, for some, it's because they're rare. They're not for everyone, clearly. 

Have a good night.

BTW, looking forward to seeing your Marko.


----------



## labor of love

Godslayer said:


> for the price of a kato, you can get a full custom from haburn or catchside , both will outperform, be stupidly good looking and have better materials... I had a kato, I sold it because the hype wasn't even close to what people say they are, honestly my takamura petty out performed it at every task besides coring leeks and cost 120 bucks vs the 550 the kato most recently sold for



I understand your point but I would still take a kato or shig before catchside or haburn. But takamuras on the other hand...people genuinely love those knives, might have to look into it.


----------



## panda

i get the feeling takamura is one of those noob gateway knives that opens peoples eyes
haburn and catchside arent even anywhere near my radar, i too would take a non wh kato over either of those.

yes, i cant wait either, he hasnt even started on it yet!


----------



## Barmoley

Hey, what do you guys have against catcheside:bigeek: he makes good knives.


----------



## bahamaroot

labor of love said:


> Take a deep breathe then exhale. Then ask yourself if that was necessary. Thanks for a lesson in how the world works.


My comment was no more necessary than yours. Your condescending attitude gets a little old sometimes.


----------



## bahamaroot

chinacats said:


> Again, this is how the outside world works...up until about 2 years ago it wasn't how this forum worked...


I remember the KS being sold way above retail before then after it became scarce and nobody was complaining then but this Kato/Shig flipping sure has a bunch of panties in a wad.


----------



## DamageInc

panda said:


> i get the feeling takamura is one of those noob gateway knives that opens peoples eyes
> haburn and catchside arent even anywhere near my radar, i too would take a non wh kato over either of those.
> 
> yes, i cant wait either, he hasnt even started on it yet!



Catcheside knives are phenomenal cutters. I have had three workhorse katos (still own two of them) and Catcheside is right up there with them if not a bit better.


----------



## Nomsdotcom

bahamaroot said:


> I remember the KS being sold way above retail before then after it became scarce and nobody was complaining then but this Kato/Shig flipping sure has a bunch of panties in a wad.


I remember Labor specifically selling a few KS's at below market value. As he has with many other knives. Which I think is the point. If I recall flipping was called out then as well. The spirit of BST is private sales of knives. If the value of that knife goes up over the time the owner has it, I don't think there is a problem with selling it at that value. Buying with the intent to resell for more than your purchased at, is, and will remain to be in poor taste. Actions like that are against what the forum is about. Doesn't matter if people are willing to pay those prices. 
If you don't mind me asking; do you feel like there is no problem there? Or that there is no easy solution?


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

panda said:


> haburn and catchside arent even anywhere near my radar, i too would take a non wh kato over either of those.



You should try what Catcheside defines as a simple forged knife using his usual workhorse style (around 240g for a 240mm, 1.2442 steel, no flex at the tip). It surprised me how good it is.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

I have to agree with Craig and Panda here, it would be better not to have people trying to use the forum only to flip knives.

I see no problem that a member ocasionally sell a blade for a higher price that was payed if that blade is rare. Who would sell a Kramer or a Hattori KD bought 20 years ago for its original price? In that case, that Kramer/KD was enjoyed for some time, a fact which demonstrates the non-flipping behavior. On the other hand, it's sad to see people buying blades only to resell them. Similar to tickets resold at the eve of a World Cup or the Olympics. There will always be a market for it, we only wish that this market is not here.

As for the argument that this is how the world works, i like to think we can make a difference. If we accept the pressure to conform indiscriminately, there will be no way to change anything in our world.


----------



## Wdestate

The flippers are never going away, the problem is the people that buy it. Let's start a whole new thread "flipper buyer alert" then we can shame, chastise and berate both the flipper and the buyer! Even tho it will continue to happen we can all post about how we should stop this injustice and how we would never do that ( well unless we had the knives ourselves to sell .) Be the change you seek!


----------



## YG420

Wdestate said:


> The flippers are never going away, the problem is the people that buy it. Let's start a whole new thread "flipper buyer alert" then we can shame, chastise and berate both the flipper and the buyer! Even tho it will continue to happen we can all post about how we should stop this injustice and how we would never do that ( well unless we had the knives ourselves to sell .) Be the change you seek!



&#128079;&#128079;&#128079; love the guys who were against flipping til they themselves do it cuz they dont know how to price the knife lmao!


----------



## alterwisser

+1 on the Catchesides ... 

Anyone who hasn't TRIED one and claims he would not take it over XYZ knife needs to explain WHY, imho. If it's because of looks, I get it. It cannot be about performance. I own 65 knives or so, and have sold a whole bunch, and tried some more. Catcheside is right up there with any of them, from Shig to Kato, Customs like Dalman, Haburn ... Watanabe, Xerxes, Comet, Tsourkan, Tansu, Ashi, CJA, Billipp ... I own all of those and the Catchie simple forged might actually be my favorite, and it sure as hell outperforms moist (if not all) of them ...


----------



## Godslayer

alterwisser said:


> +1 on the Catchesides ...
> 
> Anyone who hasn't TRIED one and claims he would take it over XYZ knife needs to explain WHY, imho. If it's because of looks, I get it. It cannot be about performance. I own 65 knives or so, and have sold a whole bunch, and tried some more. Catcheside is right up there with any of them, from Shig to Kato, Customs like Dalman, Haburn ... Watanabe, Xerxes, Comet, Tsourkan, Tansu, Ashi, CJA, Billipp ... I own all of those and the Catchie simple forged might actually be my favorite, and it sure as hell outperforms moist (if not all) of them ...



It's a good knife, his heat treat is honestly Bill Burke level, like glass on a stone, kind of like an upgraded terayusa, only complaint is some of his handles are goofy/really really expensive but his work is probably in the top 1-2% of knife makers. Wish he was still here.


----------



## Iggy

alterwisser said:


> +1 on the Catchesides ...
> 
> Anyone who hasn't TRIED one and claims he would take it over XYZ knife needs to explain WHY, imho. If it's because of looks, I get it. It cannot be about performance. I own 65 knives or so, and have sold a whole bunch, and tried some more. Catcheside is right up there with any of them, from Shig to Kato, Customs like Dalman, Haburn ... Watanabe, Xerxes, Comet, Tsourkan, Tansu, Ashi, CJA, Billipp ... I own all of those and the Catchie simple forged might actually be my favorite, and it sure as hell outperforms moist (if not all) of them ...



Can't agree more... I have tried a lot of knives in the last year and own quite a lot of them... and my Catcheside Duo (Simple Forged Geometry Gyuto Catchyblue Sanmai and SC125 Honyaki Gyuto) are two of my favorite knives I've ever tried! 

And yes... had multiple Katos and quite like them actually (only one left...) but... Katos are in no way even close to one of my two Catchies. 


Regards, Iggy


----------



## inzite

Marcelo Amaral said:


> I have to agree with Craig and Panda here, it would be better not to have people trying to use the forum only to flip knives.
> 
> I see no problem that a member ocasionally sell a blade for a higher price that was payed if that blade is rare. Who would sell a Kramer or a Hattori KD bought 20 years ago for its original price? In that case, that Kramer/KD was enjoyed for some time, a fact which demonstrates the non-flipping behavior. On the other hand, it's sad to see people buying blades only to resell them. Similar to tickets resold at the eve of a World Cup or the Olympics. There will always be a market for it, we only wish that this market is not here.
> 
> As for the argument that this is how the world works, i like to think we can make a difference. If we accept the pressure to conform indiscriminately, there will be no way to change anything in our world.



would one be a flipper if they bought a kd years ago but never used it and now list it for 2 times the price? but yeah maybe we can shame the buyer and flipper.


----------



## inzite

alterwisser said:


> +1 on the Catchesides ...
> 
> Anyone who hasn't TRIED one and claims he would take it over XYZ knife needs to explain WHY, imho. If it's because of looks, I get it. It cannot be about performance. I own 65 knives or so, and have sold a whole bunch, and tried some more. Catcheside is right up there with any of them, from Shig to Kato, Customs like Dalman, Haburn ... Watanabe, Xerxes, Comet, Tsourkan, Tansu, Ashi, CJA, Billipp ... I own all of those and the Catchie simple forged might actually be my favorite, and it sure as hell outperforms moist (if not all) of them ...



TF > Kato and shigs!


----------



## chinacats

inzite said:


> TF > Kato and shigs!



Is there a reason you feel the need to say this in every thread you post? Its understood that you love your TF...many others feel differently...enough already, please...


----------



## inzite

chinacats said:


> Is there a reason you feel the need to say this in every thread you post? Its understood that you love your TF...many others feel differently...enough already, please...



just saying while we are comparing between knives .


----------



## daveb

chinacats said:


> Is there a reason you feel the need to say this in every thread you post? Its understood that you love your TF...many others feel differently...enough already, please...



Name is "incite" for a reason. Yawn.


----------



## inzite

daveb said:


> Name is "incite" for a reason. Yawn.



 loving this open discussion!


----------



## labor of love

Catchside is my favorite, one of my favorites uses superior materials best cutter is all completely subjective though. I get it because Im the same way and have my favorites. I just can tell from from cutting demos that Ive seen from Will that Id prefer a Kato maybe even a shig( and quite a few other things).


----------



## Panamapeet

Lets just all agree that TF is worse than just about anything . 

*runs away


----------



## inzite

Spipet said:


> Lets just all agree that TF is worse than just about anything .
> 
> *runs away



:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: all good! no censorship required!  healthy open discussion surprisingly this time!


----------



## labor of love

Screw it, Ill get on the catchside list.


----------



## chinacats

labor of love said:


> Screw it, Ill get on the catchside list.



Good call, looking forward to some feedback on his current grind.


----------



## ashy2classy

labor of love said:


> Screw it, Ill get on the catchside list.



OT: I submitted a request to him through the UK knives site (or whatever it is) like a month ago and never heard back. If you're actually serious, how do you get on his list?


----------



## labor of love

I inquired once about getting on the list, he emailed me back like 7 weeks later. I guess it just takes time.


----------



## YG420

Great decision labor! Fwiw, my custom is a few months behind but i know how things get so im not worried and itll be well worth the wait


----------



## daveb

labor of love said:


> Screw it, Ill get on the catchside list.


Dibs after 2 weeks[emoji41]


----------



## panda

i wouldnt mind trying this one http://www.catchesidecutlery.com/store/p95/Honyaki_Gyuto_-_245mm.html


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

Wdestate said:


> The flippers are never going away, the problem is the people that buy it. Let's start a whole new thread "flipper buyer alert" then we can shame, chastise and berate both the flipper and the buyer! Even tho it will continue to happen we can all post about how we should stop this injustice and how we would never do that ( well unless we had the knives ourselves to sell .) Be the change you seek!



As i said before, i see no problem that anyone sells their knives for the whatever value they feel is adequate. If it's too high, it won't sell. It is sad, though, to see people whose only purpose here is to buy it new and sell it right aftwards for a much higher price. After a bunch of sales, the pattern becomes clear. As for the part that we ourselves would do the same thing (hypocrisy), i agree that anyone who follows this pattern (buying and selling for a much higher price right afterwards repeatedly) should have the same treatment.

Also, i'm not proposing any sanction as your reduction to absurdity argument (regarding creating a thread to chastise both the buyer and the seller) does, i'm simply pilling up upon a shared feeling regarding this matter.


----------



## Wdestate

Marcelo Amaral said:


> As i said before, i see no problem that anyone sells their knives for the whatever value they feel is adequate. If it's too high, it won't sell. It is sad, though, to see people whose only purpose here is to buy it new and sell it right aftwards for a much higher price. After a bunch of sales, the pattern becomes clear. As for the part that we ourselves would do the same thing (hypocrisy), i agree that anyone who follows this pattern (buying and selling for a much higher price right afterwards repeatedly) should have the same treatment.
> 
> Also, i'm not proposing any sanction as your reduction to absurdity argument (regarding creating a thread to chastise both the buyer and the seller) does, i'm simply pilling up upon a shared feeling regarding this matter.



i was kidding, but for real, the only thing that keeps people flipping is the people buying, no buyer, no flipping, BAM!


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

inzite said:


> would one be a flipper if they bought a kd years ago but never used it and now list it for 2 times the price? but yeah maybe we can shame the buyer and flipper.



In my opinion, the problem is not buying, enjoying it (as a cook or as a collector), and selling it some time afterwards for whatever price, but rather buying it with the intention to sell it right afterwards. In other words, being a seller at the forum without paying sellers' fees. I agree that's not a behavior easy to spot at the first sale, but after a good number of sales, it becomes easier. Again, i'm not for any witch hunting here. My position is that i will avoid to buy from members that i identify as someone behaving like this in my mind. Let others buy it or not.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

Wdestate said:


> i was kidding, but for real, the only thing that keeps people flipping is the people buying, no buyer, no flipping, BAM!



Hey, no harm done!

I see your point that people buying is part of the problem, that's why i try not to from people i relate to the behavior of buying with the solely intention of selling right afterwards. I also think it's hard to propose any KKF sanction on this. What can easily be done is that each member that agrees this is of poor taste, can themselves, according to their own views, try not to buy it too.


----------



## valgard

labor of love said:


> Screw it, Ill get on the catchside list.



I saw this coming from miles away :rofl2:


----------



## labor of love

valgard said:


> I saw this coming from miles away :rofl2:



Heh, one time I watched Breaking Bad from beginning to end so I could competently argue why I thought it was a lame show.


----------



## panda

i never enjoyed that show after the 1st season. better call saul on the other hand is incredible show!!


----------



## Barmoley

I couldn't watch Breaking Bad, didn't really give it a chance, but just didn't get sucked in after an episode or two, people say I need to watch more to really get it.

Will's knives, the 2 I've tried are very good, but these things are very personal and subjective. His order system needs to send a message that you are on the list, that would help. Nonetheless, you do get on the list if you use it.


----------



## HRC_64

Godslayer said:


> Ban kato and shigs from bst, end this whole discussion. Easy peasy.




easy solution +1


----------



## ashy2classy

I just posted Gs's old Kato 180 petty ($40 under what I paid) - let the bashing begin...


----------



## bkultra

ashy2classy said:


> I just posted Gs's old Kato 180 petty ($40 under what I paid) - let the bashing begin...



anti-flipper... We hate people that under value as well, just like China and their currency


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

ashy2classy said:


> I just posted Gs's old Kato 180 petty ($40 under what I paid) - let the bashing begin...



Just for historical reference, a new one was $257.25 from JNS in July, 2013. A lightly used one went for $225 to $235.


----------



## Godslayer

ashy2classy said:


> I just posted Gs's old Kato 180 petty ($40 under what I paid) - let the bashing begin...



It's ok, I paid 200 for it 2 years ago, I saw it sell for 550 and laughed my ass off, katos are basically bitcoin at this point lol


----------



## labor of love

I remember staring at a kato 180mm Petty for weeks in not a month or 2 and gave it some serious consideration. Like, it was available and instock. Great looking knife.


----------



## Corradobrit1

GLWS?


----------



## labor of love

Looks like ashi didn’t retire. $1500 for a brand new one, with potentially more to come. Flipper market just got crushed.
Of course, the secondary market will still remain and they’ll still sell for more than retail.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

labor of love said:


> Looks like ashi didn’t retire. $1500 for a brand new one, with potentially more to come. Flipper market just got crushed.
> Of course, the secondary market will still remain and they’ll still sell for more than retail.


Great Craig! I’m gonna email Ricky Tran to get on the masamoto Ashi Honyaki list! I’m sure he’s gonna get a few dozen in stock in no time!


----------



## Matus

I asked twice about Ashi honyaki in the past few months, but was told that they do not accept orders. I was just curious how much would be a new one, would naively expect somewhere between $1500 and $2000


----------



## labor of love

Chicagohawkie said:


> Great Craig! I’m gonna email Ricky Tran to get on the masamoto Ashi Honyaki list! I’m sure he’s gonna get a few dozen in stock in no time!


While you’re at it place an order for panda and I. 1 Masamoto KS honyaki each.


----------



## labor of love

Matus said:


> I asked twice about Ashi honyaki in the past few months, but was told that they do not accept orders. I was just curious how much would be a new one, would naively expect somewhere between $1500 and $2000


Mystery solved. $1500 retail. You’re welcome.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

labor of love said:


> While you’re at it place an order for panda and I. 1 Masamoto KS honyaki each.


Ha! Buy two, get one free!


----------



## bkultra

According to this conversation, I could still flip my Masamoto honyaki.


----------



## labor of love

bkultra said:


> According to this conversation, I could still flip my Masamoto honyaki.


According to my kkf currency converter: 1 Masamoto KS honyaki is worth 2 Kato westerns.


----------



## chinacats

Masamoto KS honyaki is much more rare... and kanji likely not chiseled by 5 year old...


----------



## Matus

But would it beat a Dragon chiseled by the whole kindergarten?


----------



## panda

bkultra said:


> According to this conversation, I could still flip my Masamoto honyaki.


more like put it on extended loan to panda


----------



## bkultra

I accept layaway


----------



## captaincaed

labor of love said:


> I inquired once about getting on the list, he emailed me back like 7 weeks later. I guess it just takes time.


Did you ever make progress toward this knife?


----------



## labor of love

captaincaed said:


> Did you ever make progress toward this knife?


Oh yeah. Catcheside has a very easy ordering system in place now on his website.


----------



## Qapla'

Which forum rule does flipping break?


----------



## labor of love

Qapla' said:


> Which forum rule does flipping break?


None. Flipping is permitted.


----------



## M1k3

Qapla' said:


> Which forum rule does flipping break?



None. But misrepresentation of the product for sale is.


----------



## daveb

It is largely considered poor form. But it doesn't break the rules.


----------



## Matus

Me thinks that buying a knife from a KKF member and flipping it for profit right away is in the same class of poor form as trying to flip a knife from a vendor before receiving it


----------



## labor of love

Looks like that thread was cleaned up...it could still be a little cleaner.


----------



## Matus

labor of love said:


> Looks like that thread was cleaned up...it could still be a little cleaner.



Let me have a look. Rules for BST are pretty clear and we do our best to enforce them

EDIT: looks pretty spotless to me


----------



## pete84

Sad how this forum has devolved into hypocrisy and double standards. 

and so many of you “moral policemen” tooting your horns here have bought knives from me in the past, and in almost every single case for a price less than I paid for that item. Ive lost money on almost every single knife I've sold here, period. And by far it has been at a loss cumulatively. So whine on, my ignorant compatriots.

Hate on me and others like me all you want, the internet is full of the useless vitriolic bull-crap that you people are obsessed with polluting the airwaves with.

Im glad my knives and my choices have such a profound impact on the well-being and mental stability of those overly concerned citizens voicing their concerns here.


----------



## Matus

I am not quite sure about the win/loss tobe honest. But as this community grew up around knife enthusiasts quite a few find it disheartening to see it being used fir profit. I personally find the lack of transparency the main issue.

In this particular case apparently several were aware of the first sale as otherwise nobody would raise an eyebrow at that price really. It is not black and white situation from any perspective. 

So nobody is being nailed to a cross, just the lacking information is being added ... and a bit of attitude.


----------



## pete84

Someone once said when you assume, you make an ass of u and me

How on Gods green earth could you possibly know the nature of my finances in regards to knives, or how much money I have or haven’t spent or lost in the hobby? That is extremely presumptuous and rude of you to even speculate

And it has been at a loss, I assure you.

Lame. Make a trade offer or go mind your own business.


----------



## ian

I don’t have any opinions about this to share, but let me say that I’m thrilled that having the knife hobby be a net financial loss is a mark of pride! I feel so good about myself right now. I’m going to go tell my wife the good news.


----------



## WildBoar

Damn, if my wife ever finds out how thrilled I should be she would kill me


----------



## alterwisser

I’m with Pete here.

As soon as we start assuming we get in dangerous territory. 

And isn’t the rule here that selling at a profit is NOT forbidden? Well then this should be all we need to know. There shouldn’t even be a “flipper alert” thread to be honest, if flipping/selling for a profit isn’t against forum rules.

i get it that a lot of people absolutely hate the idea of people making a profit by selling a knife. Those same people SURE AS HELL would never sell their house for less than what they can just because they paid less at some point in the past. This is as hypocritical as it gets, folks!

We are talking about someone else’s goods here, someone THEY (not us) own. They should do whatever they want with it. It’s a free world, this forum isn’t the North Korean Kitchen Knife Forum where the dear leader(s) gets to decide what to sell to whom, when and what price, no?

On top of that: IF someone really sells at a profit, even flips the knife right away: do we know why? Should we really call out that person? That person might be in dire need of cash for health or other reasons and it’s not on us to mess with that ....


----------



## madelinez

Not a big fan of immediately re-selling something you buy on BST at a higher price. However we don't know how much the seller has paid for shipping, currency conversion and taxes so we should be careful before jumping the gun. In the instance most recently discussed if someone was buying from the US and importing into the EU that price gap would definitely be expected. Likewise in my case buying from the US or EU and importing into Australia, I don't have the EU tax issue but the shipping can be brutal.


----------



## ma_sha1

I was that noob in the original BST thread who missed out my 1st Shig experience by a mere 20min. I am looking to start my 1st Shig at 180/210mm Kasumi level, the hype is killing me.

Knowing now that I had lost to flipping, regardless of BST rules or if the flipping had a gain or loss, just makes me feel pretty ****** & sad.

I am neither a flipper nor a collector, just a home cook who enjoys using J knives in Asian cooking, and Admin for a pretty big Asian food group on FB:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1002004323271419/?ref=group_header&view=group

Thanks


----------



## lemeneid

ma_sha1 said:


> I was that noob in the original BST thread who missed out my 1st Shig experience by a mere 20min. I am looking to start my 1st Shig at 180/210mm Kasumi level, the hype is killing me.
> 
> Knowing now that I had lost to flipping, regardless of BST rules or if the flipping had a gain or loss, just makes me feel pretty ****** & sad.
> 
> I am neither a flipper nor a collector, just a home cook who enjoys using J knives in Asian cooking, and Admin for a pretty big Asian food group on FB:
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/groups/1002004323271419/?ref=group_header&view=group
> 
> Thanks


Save your money and buy better knives. Shigs are gound fat and chunky. Beautiful knives though.


----------



## lemeneid

At the $800 mark for cutting ability, you're looking at Denka, Toyanabe, Hinoura Tsukasa, Fujiyama, Yoshikazu Tanaka.


----------



## F-Flash

And many custom western makers too.


----------



## inferno

ma_sha1 said:


> I was that noob in the original BST thread who missed out my 1st Shig experience by a mere 20min. I am looking to start my 1st Shig at 180/210mm Kasumi level, the hype is killing me.
> 
> Knowing now that I had lost to flipping, regardless of BST rules or if the flipping had a gain or loss, just makes me feel pretty ****** & sad.
> 
> I am neither a flipper nor a collector, just a home cook who enjoys using J knives in Asian cooking, and Admin for a pretty big Asian food group on FB:
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/groups/1002004323271419/?ref=group_header&view=group
> 
> Thanks



dont worry, you can probably buy it in 2 weeks for around a grand or in 4 weeks for 1200 so.


----------



## Panamapeet

madelinez said:


> Not a big fan of immediately re-selling something you buy on BST at a higher price. However we don't know how much the seller has paid for shipping, currency conversion and taxes so we should be careful before jumping the gun. In the instance most recently discussed if someone was buying from the US and importing into the EU that price gap would definitely be expected. Likewise in my case buying from the US or EU and importing into Australia, I don't have the EU tax issue but the shipping can be brutal.



Well in this case we do know, as the transaction was done in US dollars at a price well below 800 USD, without import duties. Whether or not it is or is not in line with ‘the rules’, it may be considered poor form by some . Bonus point is that we all had a good laugh at the wolves and sheep thing, haha!


----------



## alterwisser

F-Flash said:


> And many custom western makers too.



exactly!


----------



## Codered

F-Flash said:


> And many custom western makers too.


I totaly agree. Just focus on western makers and sell the japanese suff to me. I would be glad to pick up an old fashion dusty japanese unicorn so others can buy the western makers.


----------



## Foltest

pete84 said:


> Sad how this forum has devolved into hypocrisy and double standards.
> 
> and so many of you “moral policemen” tooting your horns here have bought knives from me in the past, and in almost every single case for a price less than I paid for that item. Ive lost money on almost every single knife I've sold here, period. And by far it has been at a loss cumulatively. So whine on, my ignorant compatriots.
> 
> Hate on me and others like me all you want, the internet is full of the useless vitriolic bull-crap that you people are obsessed with polluting the airwaves with.
> 
> Im glad my knives and my choices have such a profound impact on the well-being and mental stability of those overly concerned citizens voicing their concerns here.



I dont understand what makes you triggered so much. You can flip to your heart's content, nobody prohibits you from doing so. Some people don't like it, live with that. Whining here isn't going to change anything about it.


----------



## mise_en_place

ma_sha1 said:


> I was that noob in the original BST thread who missed out my 1st Shig experience by a mere 20min. I am looking to start my 1st Shig at 180/210mm Kasumi level, the hype is killing me.



I bought a 270mm kasumi Shig gyuto from Mert Tansu back in 2015 for $500 and I sold it a couple months later for the same price (Mert's listing for $500 was a little below market value at the time). It was a cool knife and fun to use, but if someone offered me the same knife for $500 again, the only reason I'd buy it back would be to sell it for something like $1,200. 

The cladding on that knife was super reactive and there are a lot better options for the price you pay. You could most likely get two really great knives that outperform a BNIB Shig for the price of one these days. 

The hype is just what you said: hype.


----------



## TSF415

I thought this thread was about a dolphin sighting but this is much more interesting.


----------



## pete84

ma_sha1 said:


> I was that noob in the original BST thread who missed out my 1st Shig experience by a mere 20min. I am looking to start my 1st Shig at 180/210mm Kasumi level, the hype is killing me.
> 
> Knowing now that I had lost to flipping, regardless of BST rules or if the flipping had a gain or loss, just makes me feel pretty ****** & sad.
> 
> I am neither a flipper nor a collector, just a home cook who enjoys using J knives in Asian cooking, and Admin for a pretty big Asian food group on FB:
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/groups/1002004323271419/?ref=group_header&view=group
> 
> Thanks



you PM’d me with an offer less than I paid. I countered with my price, which was what I paid plus shipping. You never responded. So i sold it at the price I offered you to some other noob who wanted to try a Shig

And the Earth continues to spin


----------



## labor of love

F-Flash said:


> And many custom western makers too.


Many many many custom makers too.


----------



## labor of love

Pete,
If there’s a misunderstanding I’d like to hear it. From what I can see you purchased a knife for $660 plus shipping and tried to sell it for $800. If those numbers are inaccurate please correct them.
looks like some guys crapped on your FS thread, I didn’t get a chance to see it before the mods edited it so I don’t know what was said. Its a shame it happened.
Anyway, the point of this flipper thread is to shed light on knives that are being sold on bst for profit. This thread is here so people can comment here instead of commenting on BST threads in such a way that would jeopardize a sell which is against rules.


----------



## pete84

Why were some of my posts edited or deleted? Was it you, Matus? Was it not enough to disparage me? So now clean up the crime scene?

I believe nothing I wrote warranted these admin/mod actions.

Admins/mods, please explain.


----------



## pete84

Craig, I paid $700 and sold it for $750, covering my expenses. And that ought to be a concern to the buyer and myself only, not the peanut gallery with megaphones and no respect to others privacy.


----------



## pete84

Im sick of the anti-flipper vitriol, same way they are sick of flippers. If they can come into my LEGITIMATE BST threads and crap on me, and then come here and crap on me, no way Im going to allow it to go unanswered


----------



## ma_sha1

pete84 said:


> you PM’d me with an offer less than I paid. I countered with my price, which was what I paid plus shipping. You never responded. So i sold it at the price I offered you to some other noob who wanted to try a Shig
> And the Earth continues to spin



hi Peter, just a FYI. I wasn’t complaining about our failed transaction. I was talking about the disappointment I felt with the original WTS thread after reading many posts & realizing that I was been sniped by a flipper.

Since you talked about what happened during our PM, it’s only fair that i explain my rationale out in the open then.

At the time of my PM to you, I didn’t know that was a knife you just bought. I started my offer Lower Without knowing your cost. I was Hoping to be able to meet you half way after some back & forth to reach a deal.

I stopped responding after you told me your terms, that your term was buyer pays Papal fees or pay you as Friends & family. As a noob, I took the BST warnings to heart, your terms scared me off, that’s why I never responded.


----------



## pete84

Its no problem ma, just that I dont take risks with people without known history because ive been ripped off before by people who received items and claimed they never did with paypal, costing hundreds of $$ and lots of headache


----------



## daveb

Let's back the truck up.

This is not a thread for heaping abuse on a perceived "flipper", rather it exists as Craig describes, for members to post about what they think is a knife being "flipped". 

That's been done. The same arguments about the bane of flipping and the joys of free market and everything in between have been made again. And again. 

Some posts have been edited/deleted as personal attacks or inflammatory. 

It remains the position of the forum that pricing is the prerogative of the seller and any negative comments in a bst post will be censored.

And from me, it's not flipped until someone buys it.


----------



## Edge

Dave said it well.


----------



## HRC_64

Shouldn't the flippers just be BANNED from commenting in this thread ("Flipper Alert") ? 
I'd vote for delting all the comments the flippers make here...

Kind of like how the BST threads are meant to be kept free from clutter?

If you are trying to keep the two sides from arguing this makes the most sense.


----------



## daveb

You've sold a few knives in bst (IIRC), what if someone calls you out for "flipping"? Would you want to respond?


----------



## pete84

This place has gotten out of control.

All hail the great and dear leaders of KKF!

and the admin can cancel my membership now, thanks. done helping support you clowns.

and to the faithful here who don’t pay the membership fee, come on man. Mend the fences of your playground. Stop just riding that fence.


----------



## alterwisser

HRC_64 said:


> Shouldn't the flippers just be BANNED from commenting in this thread ("Flipper Alert") ?
> I'd vote for delting all the comments the flippers make here...
> 
> Kind of like how the BST threads are meant to be kept free from clutter?
> 
> If you are trying to keep the two sides from arguing this makes the most sense.




And who decides who is a flipper and who’s not?

Accusation of being a flipper doesn’t make one a flipper!

I was accused of being a flipper just because I mentioned in a thread that I will probably resell a knife I just purchased. No mention of price, mind you!


----------



## WildBoar

pete84 said:


> This place has gotten out of control.
> 
> All hail the great and dear leaders of KKF!
> 
> and the admin can cancel my membership now, thanks. done helping support you clowns.
> 
> and to the faithful here who don’t pay the membership fee, come on man. Mend the fences of your playground. Stop just riding that fence.


Odd post, considering daveb and angie just supported your position on this...


----------



## daveb

I was just thinking that myself....


----------



## Gjackson98

I think it will be best for everyone to take a step back and cool off on this topic for a few days. Damages has already been done especially to the forum. 

We are better than this. The last impression we want to leave to the newcomers is pages and pages of Blame and arguments.


----------



## Matus

Wow, this escalated unexpectedly. Pete, I did not mod your posts, if that is of any relevance. Nor did I discourage a potential buyer (who contacted me right after my post here - but before it all exploded - as he was concerned about your offering because there were several posts removed) from buying the knife at the asking price.


----------



## Corradobrit1

ma_sha1 said:


> your term was buyer pays Papal fees or pay you as Friends & family


Naughty naughty


----------



## ian

The thing about the Paypal fees is that they can be very different depending on where the buyer lives. In general, I support the "make paypal fees automatically included" policy, since it's good not to try to encourage the buyer to give up their protection. (Although @Gjackson98's thread is giving me pause about Paypal security...) However, then the seller gets docked for selling to someone in another country, unless they're willing to do f&f.
Not sure what the answer is here, though.


----------



## Corradobrit1

ian said:


> The thing about the Paypal fees is that they can be very different depending on where the buyer lives. In general, I support the "make paypal fees automatically included" policy, since it's good not to try to encourage the buyer to give up their protection. (Although @Gjackson98's thread is giving me pause about Paypal security...) However, then the seller gets docked for selling to someone in another country, unless they're willing to do f&f.
> Not sure what the answer is here, though.


If that address is the "confirmed address" the seller is covered whether its a US or international sale. The issues occur when the seller is asked to ship to an unconfirmed address as in the case of GJackson98.


----------



## ian

?

I'm just talking about the KKF policy of including the paypal fees in the advertised sale price.


----------



## daveb

That's a PP "rule".


----------



## aboynamedsuita

ian said:


> The thing about the Paypal fees is that they can be very different depending on where the buyer lives. In general, I support the "make paypal fees automatically included" policy, since it's good not to try to encourage the buyer to give up their protection. (Although @Gjackson98's thread is giving me pause about Paypal security...) However, then the seller gets docked for selling to someone in another country, unless they're willing to do f&f.
> Not sure what the answer is here, though.



You just need to account for the PP fees (and shipping, etc.) in your asking price in the bst post. Seems pretty simple. I recall they’re something like 3-4%. Some sellers say CONUS, EU, etc. only and I imagine this is a reason (plus shipping paperwork may be less intimidating for some if they don’t have to do customs forms, although I find them easy to do).


----------



## ian

daveb said:


> That's a PP "rule".



Ah, so it is! That’s really interesting. I was completely misinformed about the origin and purpose of this policy, then. It's not KKF trying to protect buyers, it's Paypal trying to protect their business by not making it more expensive than other options.... mind blown.



aboynamedsuita said:


> You just need to account for the PP fees (and shipping, etc.) in your asking price in the bst post. Seems pretty simple. I recall they’re something like 3-4%. Some sellers say CONUS, EU, etc. only and I imagine this is a reason (plus shipping paperwork may be less intimidating for some if they don’t have to do customs forms, although I find them easy to do).



I guess the problem is the currency conversion fees, which depend on the currency, and so are not a fixed amount that you can estimate before purchase. For items $300 and above, say, this can be near a $10 difference to the seller, depending on the country. Yes, just saying CONUS only is a solution, but it's nice to be able to advertise more widely.

In the end, this is not the biggest deal, but it's just a little flaw in the process.


----------



## Michi

I don't get what all the fuss is about. Someone offers a knife for x dollars. I can look at the knife and decide to buy or not buy it at that price, end of story.

What has happened to that knife in the past is totally irrelevant to me. I couldn't care less whether the seller previously bought the knife for x+y dollars or x–y dollars. The knife is worth what it's worth, and all I need to know to decide whether to buy the knife is its condition and its price.

Why would I feel the need to shout and complain when someone makes a profit on the sale of a knife? As if there were something immoral about that? (Not that this happens all that often, anyway.)

How many people will shout and complain if I sell a knife at a loss? Why isn't this forum flooded with messages in that case saying "Michi, don't be a fool, you are asking far too little for the knife!" As far as I can see, that doesn't happen. Instead, people congratulate the buyer along the lines of "great deal, you got a bargain there." Never mind that Michi lost a bunch of money…

It is really, really simple: if you think a knife costs too much, don't buy it. This whole "flipper alert" thing looks just like envy to me. If someone is smart enough to pick up a knife for x dollars and sell it for x+y dollars, good on them. The person was astute enough to read the market and took the risk of buying a knife that might not sell at a profit after all. I don't begrudge them the money they made.

Next time I sell some company shares, will I be a "flipper", too? Every time I sell a share on the stock market, the profit I make is money that someone else has lost. It's how the world of buying and selling works, get over it.


----------



## daveb

Thanks Michi for re-emphasizing the obvious and keeping the thread alive.


----------



## Michi

daveb said:


> Thanks Michi for re-emphasizing the obvious and keeping the thread alive.


It doesn't seem that obvious to some people, at least as far as I can see.

My apologies if I stepped on your toes there.


----------



## ian

It’d be useful if we could make a sticky somewhere explaining “viewpoint 1” and “viewpoint 2” re flipping. Then a lot of these conversations could be replaced by:

SexyCook: Viewpoint 1!
KnifeHoarder23: On the contrary, Viewpoint 2.
EggplantFetishist: But have you heard of Viewpoint 1?
Homemaker5: Indeed, but Viewpoint 2!


----------



## daveb

Michi said:


> My apologies if I stepped on your toes there.



No offense (spelled correctly) taken or meant.

Die thread. Die.


----------



## labor of love

If the people that flip knives see nothing wrong in doing it, why do people see something wrong in pointing out the people and instances when it occurs? If we have to have one then we should also have the other.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Michi said:


> How many people will shout and complain if I sell a knife at a loss? Why isn't this forum flooded with messages in that case saying "Michi, don't be a fool, you are asking far too little for the knife!" As far as I can see, that doesn't happen.


Happens occasionally, usually via PM
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...tty-masayuko-165-ku-nakiri.43517/#post-641371

Generally its sellers who have been out of the game for a while and haven't cottoned on that certain brands/lines have achieved cult status and the prices to match. Now where are those out-of-touch Ashi Honyaki owners......


----------



## Bert2368

TSF415 said:


> I thought this thread was about a dolphin sighting



Well, metaphorically, perhaps it IS.

_Another Mikey took a knife while arguing in traffic

Flipper died a natural death, he caught a nasty virus

Then there was the ever present football player-rapist

They were all in love with dyin', they were doin' it in Texas

 
























(PINK GORILLA!)_


----------



## podzap

daveb said:


> No offense (spelled correctly) taken or meant.
> 
> Die thread. Die.



You have the power to simply lock the damn thread, but instead you decide to troll? You funny, man 

I don't have any arguments for or against flippers, just decided to join in since you left the thread unlocked!


----------



## labor of love

There’s no reason to lock this thread at all.


----------



## M1k3

Don't like the flipping, don't buy it.

Notice an issue (lying about the condition, history, etc.), message seller, if no satisfactory resolution or response, contact an admin.

Now I'm going to relive some high school with Butthole Surfers.


----------



## HRC_64

empirical examples of price ∆ arbitrage... not equal to slander, insulting, or character assasination. 
This is exactly what belongs in this thread, eg



> BST offer/trade Z was previously sale X that happened yesterday between A and B (at lower price Y)



If the counterparity to the original trade wants to enter this thread and talk ****, they should be banned...
just like if someone was to enter the "trade z" thread and start talking the same **** about their WTS transaction

such behaviours are anti-social in similar way.


----------



## HRC_64

Now, if that party wants to clarify some point ("sunshing is the best disinfectant") thats not really an issue...



> "Hey guys I bought this knife from USA into EU and paid a tone of taxes to import...re-selling locally so the ∆ prices reflect taxes paid and new seller won't have to pay taxes"



Nobody would have any issue with this, AFAIK....either as a transaction or as an explanation.


----------



## bahamaroot

I'm still amazed at how worked up some of you get over the stupidest irrelevant ****.


----------



## Oui Chef

M1k3 said:


> Now I'm going to relive some high school with Butthole Surfers.


myself also. this takes me back.
at least something good came out of here


----------



## JBsmoove




----------



## Barmoley




----------



## bahamaroot

So you wanna flip a knife huh....


----------



## Jville

Protect flipping and flippers. They must be protected. And don't anybody call them a flipper or even suggest there might be flipping going on. Don't say anything shhhhhush.


----------



## M1k3

Jville said:


> Protect flipping and flippers. They must be protected. And don't anybody call them a flipper or even suggest there might be flipping going on. Don't say anything shhhhhush.



GLWS


----------



## Dhoff




----------



## Oui Chef

Dhoff said:


>



Jesus what a maverick hahaha


----------



## pjotr

He needs to step up his game


----------



## inferno

JBsmoove said:


> View attachment 66344



skippey, skippey, skippy the bush kangaroo. 
oh wait. wrong show. my bad

They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning,
No-one you see, is smarter than he,
And we know Flipper, lives in a world full of wonder,
Flying there-under, under the sea!

its never too late to correct ****.


----------



## inferno

HRC_64 said:


> empirical examples of price ∆ arbitrage... not equal to slander,



whats wrong with slander?? i like slander.


----------



## Interapid101

pjotr said:


> He needs to step up his game




Feeling the strangest combination of terror and infatuation....


----------



## inferno

pjotr said:


> He needs to step up his game




those are kamikotos. you can only do that with kamikotos!


----------



## labor of love

Imagine watching a TV show about a crime fighting dolphin haha!
The 60’s were pretty lit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipper_(1964_TV_series)


----------



## inferno

acid makes people very creative.


----------



## podzap

This thread is dead


----------



## M1k3




----------



## Codered




----------



## ian

Codered said:


> Same group of people i see buying all the rusty blades on japanese yahoo auction, cleaning them up and selling for twice or more what they pay for.



I’m not going to comment on the main content of this thread (which I hear is dead), but I’d say that people buying up rusty blades and restoring them for sale is something different. I imagine most of these blades are low value items: if so, it takes some work to restore the blade, so why not charge more?


----------



## Codered

ian said:


> I’m not going to comment on the main content of this thread (which I hear is dead), but I’d say that people buying up rusty blades and restoring them for sale is something different. I imagine most of these blades are low value items: if so, it takes some work to restore the blade, so why not charge more?


I removed my initial comment not to stir waters. I would like to keep it that way.


----------



## Matus

Codered said:


> I removed my initial comment not to stir waters. I would like to keep it that way.



It is your liberty to edit your post, but I actually think that it reflects what is actually going on quite closely. There would have been nothing wrong about leaving it as it was. This thread was created to tackle the flipping head-on, so sparks do fly at times


----------



## bahamaroot

Restoring vintage blades and reselling for profit is a totally different animal than flipping a rare or NIB knife.


----------



## daveb

I once killed a 6 pack just to watch it die.......


----------



## labor of love

I don’t even flip when I sharpen


----------



## ian

labor of love said:


> I don’t even flip when I sharpen



Depends on the buyer. If I’m selling here, I’ll take off cash for every gram of metal I remove. If you’re just restoring some vintage $30 blade and selling on ebay, though, I could see charging for the improvement, since the buyer wouldn’t be likely to be able to do it themselves.


----------



## labor of love

ian said:


> Depends on the buyer. If I’m selling here, I’ll take off cash for every gram of metal I remove. If you’re just restoring some vintage $30 blade and selling on ebay, though, I could see charging for the improvement, since the buyer wouldn’t be likely to be able to do it themselves.


Restoring a blade is not flipping. Whoever introduced that nonsense to this thread doesn’t understand what the meaning of flipping really is.


----------



## Bert2368

Some of us may be trying to kill the thread by confusing it so badly it forgets to breathe and expires. Or slipping some acid into its drink, causing it to go on a long road trip to "find iself".


----------



## ian

labor of love said:


> Restoring a blade is not flipping. Whoever introduced that nonsense to this thread doesn’t understand what the meaning of flipping really is.



Exactly. 




Bert2368 said:


> Some of us may be trying to kill the thread by confusing it so badly it forgets to breathe and expires.



Tried and true political tactic. 

But what about the flippers who buy a knife and then sell it to someone else, and then buy it back, restore it, sell it to another buyer (but international this time), and don’t undervalue the knife so it ends up charging the buyer lots of fees at customs, and then complain to someone at Paypal about the purchase, and then buy another knife from a disreputable dealer, hide it in their dresser for a week, and then try to return it to JKI or JNS instead, and then give it to their mom, claiming a tax deduction, and then maybe use it at work, even though they work in finance, and then sell it on the black market (BST) for $50 more than it’s really worth, given that it has a big chip in it, and then go home to bed and dream about flipping, both on BST and in the ocean. WHAT ABOUT THEM??


----------



## daveb

Eff em.


----------



## Bert2368

ian said:


> WHAT ABOUT THEM??



PRAISE JESUS! It's a description of the first proposed USA presidential candidate in DECADES I could get behind!!!















(With a knife in my hand?)


----------



## Barmoley




----------



## M1k3

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Oui Chef

ian said:


> then maybe use it at work, even though they work in finance


10/10 haha


----------



## Carl Kotte

ian said:


> Depends on the buyer. If I’m selling here, I’ll take off cash for every gram of metal I remove. If you’re just restoring some vintage $30 blade and selling on ebay, though, I could see charging for the improvement, since the buyer wouldn’t be likely to be able to do it themselves.



I really enjoy restoring blades and replacing handles on old eBay findings. But it’s really bad economy wise. I gift many. The times I put them up for auction it’s almost always an anti-flipping affair. I’m lucky if I get back the amount money spent on the knife, shipping and vat.


----------



## Michi

daveb said:


> Die thread. Die.




https://ytcropper.com/cropped/Ja5df49f6b96d82


----------



## madelinez

You just went full Australian Michi....


----------



## M1k3

Note: OP I agree with this posting. Not what it is now.


----------



## Matus

Don’t worry, at some point I will clean it up a bit, ban a few, have a beer ... and repeat the process


----------



## Michi

Matus said:


> Don’t worry, at some point I will clean it up a bit, ban a few, have a beer ... and repeat the process


Make sure you have an extra beer or two _before_ you start banning people. It loosens the index finger for the mouse clicks, while simultaneously sedating any pangs of bad conscience…


----------



## Matus

Nah, do not want to go overboard with it.


----------



## bahamaroot




----------



## ian

Carl Kotte said:


> I really enjoy restoring blades and replacing handles on old eBay findings. But it’s really bad economy wise. I gift many. The times I put them up for auction it’s almost always an anti-flipping affair. I’m lucky if I get back the amount money spent on the knife, shipping and vat.



I also did that a couple times on eBay. Lost money with every restoration. Part of the problem is that the restorations I did weren’t a complete visual overhaul, eg a rehandle, so it was hard to sell the improvements online.


----------



## stringer

ian said:


> I also did that a couple times on eBay. Lost money with every restoration. Part of the problem is that the restorations I did weren’t a complete visual overhaul, eg a rehandle, so it was hard to sell the improvements online.




That's why I just give away my restorations. It works out well with the wife. She doesn't complain about my purchases as long as I have stuff ready when she wants to give gifts to people.


----------



## ian

Yea, that’s really smart. So far, I’ve only restored old dirty carbon, though, which isn’t really giftable to most people I know. (Or maybe I’m underestimating them.) Gotta do some stainless at some point, I suppose.


----------



## inferno

i dont restore. i destroy.


----------



## Carl Kotte

ian said:


> I also did that a couple times on eBay. Lost money with every restoration. Part of the problem is that the restorations I did weren’t a complete visual overhaul, eg a rehandle, so it was hard to sell the improvements online.



The things we do... misdirected kindness or self-deluded selfishness. [emoji848] Or maybe it’s just a way to make the time pass.


----------



## Dhoff

Feel free to send me carbon i would love to try one


----------



## Carl Kotte

Dhoff said:


> Feel free to send me carbon i would love to try one



Sure, we can work something out. When I’m back home in a few weeks I can PM you about details.


----------



## Dhoff

Carl Kotte said:


> Sure, we can work something out. When I’m back home in a few weeks I can PM you about details.



Really nice of you. Looking forward to IT!


----------



## Corradobrit1

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...i-no-meito-yanagiba-240mm-9-1-2-in-new.45275/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fujiwara-T...910813?hash=item2adf980e9d:g:wQ0AAOSwJJxeIl-z


----------



## CiderBear

Corradobrit1 said:


> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...i-no-meito-yanagiba-240mm-9-1-2-in-new.45275/
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fujiwara-T...910813?hash=item2adf980e9d:g:wQ0AAOSwJJxeIl-z



Oh gosh, and then of course someone commented about having a terrible experience dealing with TF... Except this knife didn't come straight from TF at all, and was sold at a discounted price...


----------



## FoRdLaz

Corradobrit1 said:


> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...i-no-meito-yanagiba-240mm-9-1-2-in-new.45275/
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fujiwara-T...910813?hash=item2adf980e9d:g:wQ0AAOSwJJxeIl-z


Good pick-up there. 

It is indeed the same knife


----------



## Corradobrit1

Seller is being dishonest saying it was purchased from Epicedge. Buyer beware


----------



## Bcos17

I believe that seller uses a couple names on the forum.


----------



## Matus

Guys, easy, we are looking into this.


----------



## Foltest

He knows


----------



## Edson Che

honestly to asking everyone here !

People got the kato few years ago for around $400 , turn out now they are selling it for over 1k , is that a big flipping around ? 

If that is not count , I m going to sell my old old kato yanagiba 300mm over here


----------



## Edson Che

Anyone say something ??


----------



## labor of love

Edson Che said:


> honestly to asking everyone here !
> 
> People got the kato few years ago for around $400 , turn out now they are selling it for over 1k , is that a big flipping around ?
> 
> If that is not count , I m going to sell my old old kato yanagiba 300mm over here


You can flip, but you cannot be dishonest about where the knife came from. Err...maybe you can. I dunno.
The issue is that you claimed it to be from somewhere else besides ebay.


----------



## Barmoley

Edson Che said:


> Anyone say something ??


Well yeh, people say something about that too all the time. The issue is not you flipping that is allowed even though frowned upon by some members. The issue is if you lied about the source of the knife, that is not cool if that's what happened.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Barmoley said:


> Well yeh, people say something about that too all the time. The issue is not you flipping that is allowed even though frowned upon by some members. The issue is if you lied about the source of the knife, that is not cool if that's what happened.


Thats exactly what happened. Not only where but when the knife was purchased, repeatedly. Indirectly he was tarnishing the reputation of a well-regarded vendor suggesting EpicEdge supplied a defective blade. If it had arrived from EE in that state they would have immediately replaced or refunded.


----------



## labor of love

How do we know it didn’t originally come from epic edge before being sold on eBay?


----------



## Barmoley

labor of love said:


> How do we know it didn’t originally come from epic edge before being sold on eBay?


I think the issue is, he claimed to buy it at EpicEdge a year ago, but it looks like this knife was just bought on ebay last week. So even if it originally came from EpicEdge, this particular seller might not be truthful, which is definitely not right, regardless of anything else.


----------



## labor of love

Oh. Okay. Lol. Didn’t realize that.


----------



## Bert2368

I assume whatever offer was made here has been removed by staff? I can only see the ebay sale from Jan. 22.



Barmoley said:


> I think the issue is, he claimed to buy it at EpicEdge a year ago, but it looks like this knife was just bought on ebay last week.



Edson Che profile is invisible. Wondering...


----------



## Edson Che

Bert2368 said:


> I assume whatever offer was made here has been removed by staff? I can only see the ebay sale from Jan. 22.
> 
> 
> 
> Edson Che profile is invisible. Wondering...


Why you said my profile is invisible ??


----------



## HRC_64

Couple of comments:

(1) Provenance of the sale item is important ("material") part of the sale listing

EG, one reason "value added resellers" can re-sell for higher-than retail price the knife, is they "add value" which people pay extra eg for extra "quality control".

(2) Making material mis-representations about a listing/sale is banned typically by respectable sales/trading platforms like paypal and ebay

(3) Related to (2) is legal fraud...ie, to do this with (fraudulent) intent, is typically illegal

(4) Fraudlulent intent here seems obvious....since with "flipping" the purpose is to "profit" based on the fraudulent claim

(5) The fraudulent (mis) rep-resentation was important part of overall value of the action ("flipping")


----------



## Bert2368

Edson Che said:


> Why you said my profile is invisible ??



Because you (or possibly the moderators?) have made it private. See the screen grab below, it's all that comes up for me.






I would like to suggest that it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that Edson Che is telling the truth. He may have bought the knife new, offered it on ebay, used a sock puppet account to end the auction without his losing profit when it didn't get him what he wanted, then offered the knife here under yet a 3rd on line identity, in one scenario I could envision going off my limited data and innate cynicism.


----------



## Edson Che

Bert2368 said:


> Because you (or possibly the moderators?) have made it private. See the screen grab below, it's all that comes up for me.
> 
> 
> View attachment 70098
> 
> 
> I would like to suggest that it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that Edson Che is telling the truth. He may have bought the knife new, offered it on ebay, used a sock puppet account to end the auction without his losing profit when it didn't get him what he wanted, then offered the knife here under yet a 3rd on line identity, in one scenario I could envision going off my limited data and innate cynicism.




Thanks to come up that thought ! 

that ending price just piss lots people off lol


----------



## Corradobrit1

Bert2368 said:


> Because you (or possibly the moderators?) have made it private. See the screen grab below, it's all that comes up for me.
> 
> 
> View attachment 70098
> 
> 
> I would like to suggest that it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that Edson Che is telling the truth. He may have bought the knife new, offered it on ebay, used a sock puppet account to end the auction without his losing profit when it didn't get him what he wanted, then offered the knife here under yet a 3rd on line identity, in one scenario I could envision going off my limited data and innate cynicism.


He was invited to show a redacted EE invoice but refused to offer proof of his purchase. The Mods investigated and felt there were unsubstantiated claims, and proceeded to close the listing. Plus there are geographical differences between Ebay seller and the KKF'er.


----------



## Edson Che

Corradobrit1 said:


> He was invited to show a redacted EE invoice but refused to offer proof of his purchase. The Mods investigated and felt there were unsubstantiated claims, and proceeded to close the listing. Plus there are geographical differences between Ebay seller and the KKF'er.



Will you just not like me at all ??

Or do Peoples think that TF only worth $140??

Could you please show up your receipts after years?? Dose anyone from now need to show up receipts first then could sell on kkf ??

I got lots high end knife without receipts ,

The seller is my friendly Jim , and been a sushi chef for 15 years , my friend or coworker been gone to lots States ！

The end , please Don't comment on people casually if you didn’t know the truth!


----------



## Bert2368

OK. I will make my popcorn and STFU.


----------



## Edson Che

Bert2368 said:


> OK. I will make my popcorn and STFU.


 Big thanks to you my friend !!


----------



## Matus

Guys - all these attacks and poo throwing stops here. I appreciate that people get passionate about fair play, but this has gone way past that.

The BST thread in question was reported and subsequently taken offline, so that we can take time to have a closer look. This is not over. Please give us time to sort it out.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

Woo Flung Poo?


----------



## Elliot

Matus said:


> Guys - all these attacks and poo throwing stops here. I appreciate that people get passionate about fair play, but this has gone way past that.
> 
> The BST thread in question was reported and subsequently taken offline, so that we can take time to have a closer look. This is not over. Please give us time to sort it out.



Like many others, I have my gripes from time-to-time, but... fair play, Matus. godspeed.


----------



## pete84

Every time someone craps into this cesspool of a thread, God kills a kitten.

But seriously, haven't ya'll zealots had enough? Internet is not a place capable of being policed, only a fool would believe or act otherwise.


----------



## Edson Che

apologize! I overreacted today， at the pace of others!

I think we should return to our own nature. I personally think that we should n’t need to care about what others say, how it looks, facts are facts, insiders can’t see them！ 

just like when you are driving, you have to care about what others are saying ?

We are too busy for them


----------



## Bert2368




----------



## Elliot

pete84 said:


> Every time someone craps into this cesspool of a thread, God kills a kitten.
> 
> But seriously, haven't ya'll zealots had enough? Internet is not a place capable of being policed, only a fool would believe or act otherwise.



Yes, the internet can't be policed completely. You're right. 
However, these threads are incredibly useful (at least some people think so). While it doesn't change much in reality, it does allow for consumers to make decisions about future purchases. Using myself as a singular case study, there are several people on this forum that I will not do business with. It's not relevant what the business is, what they're offering me, what prices. . . all irrelevant. No business. 

I think it's perfectly reasonable that a person have standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.

And in case that sentence sounds silly and something you would argue, it's one of the definitions for morals.


----------



## labor of love

Pretty disappointing to see someone sell a knife for $500 that wasn’t good enough to even be sold by the maker thus given away for free. 
I get it, it takes 2 to tango both a buyer and seller but sheesh.
Bad look.


----------



## madelinez

Yep...


----------



## Elliot

labor of love said:


> Pretty disappointing to see someone sell a knife for $500 that wasn’t good enough to even be sold by the maker thus given away for free.
> I get it, it takes 2 to tango both a buyer and seller but sheesh.
> Bad look.



Added to my “no dealings” list for sure.


----------



## slickmamba

how does one come to the $500 price point


----------



## Chicagohawkie

Same shite, different day. Flippings been going on since day one and continues to this day. Ironic thing is the two types of flippers...... the ones who get called out and the ones that dont.


----------



## labor of love

slickmamba said:


> how does one come to the $500 price point


Ask the seller.


----------



## Jville

https://dalmanknives.bigcartel.com/product/warikomi-silversteel-240-gyuto, you can get cheaper dalman's brand new.


----------



## F-Flash

If somewhere along the line someone wants to know the seller for these free rustbucket giveaway dalmans it's @Bensbites and @jimbob


----------



## chinacats

Chicagohawkie said:


> Same shite, different day. Flippings been going on since day one and continues to this day. Ironic thing is the two types of flippers...... the ones who get called out and the ones that dont.


 

Maybe this would be a good thread for you to ignore if it bothers you every time someone posts? I would imagine that it may be very useful to someone who is just learning the ropes...i happen to enjoy seeing shitheads be called out when appropriate.


----------



## M1k3




----------



## Bensbites

F-Flash said:


> If somewhere along the line someone wants to know the seller for these free rustbucket giveaway dalmans it's @Bensbites and @jimbob


Yes, I sold a Dalmon I won. Yes I disclosed I won the knife and the origin of the contest. Yes, I emailed Mr Dalmon before hand and asked him how much I could give him to make him whole on the resale. I was open and honest in every way to avoid this exact conversation. 

what should I have done? Sat on the knife? I can promise you that several of the people who borrowed the knife went in to purchase Dalmans. Atleast one of them is on this forum.


----------



## RDalman

When Bunsbites asked for adviced on pricing I adviced low, like 50 usd max, as they really are scrap imo.

But it's true people do what they like with their property. I'm not going to say anything about that.


----------



## Bensbites

RDalman said:


> When Bunsbites asked for adviced on pricing I adviced low, like 50 usd max, as they really are scrap imo.
> 
> But it's true people do what they like with their property. I'm not going to say anything about that.


Robin, you never suggested any price. That is flat out false. You suggested I ask people what it is worth.


----------



## ma_sha1

If I just made $500 from someone’s free gift, I would not have thrown him under the bus even if his recollections weren’t exactly accurate.

Usually not a good idea to bite the hand that fed you, just saying.


----------



## RDalman

Yes a max 50 was recollected wrong, probably max value that stayed in my head. What I wrote:
"I don't need a cut of course the knife is yours to do whatever you want with. On value I have no idea, I would probably put it low, you could ask the guys wanting to buy it what it's worth to them, maybe try to explain it's shape and flaws"


----------



## Bensbites

RDalman said:


> Yes a max 50 was recollected wrong, probably max value that stayed in my head. What I wrote:
> "I don't need a cut of course the knife is yours to do whatever you want with. On value I have no idea, I would probably put it low, you could ask the guys wanting to buy it what it's worth to them, maybe try to explain it's shape and flaws"



thank you for posting this.


----------



## F-Flash

What IMO should be done with such knives if you decide to pass them along, would be sell them for low. Like 100usd max including fees. Or even better as Robin did, pass them along for free..

But it is/was yours and you can do as you please with it.


----------



## ma_sha1

I didn’t see this transaction the same way as other type of flippers that messed with KKFers. This one really did no harm. 

I was a victim of a Shig. Flipping that I’d classify as “damaging” to KKF. 

I was 5 min. too late on BST for a Shig. Kasumi. only to find out the buyer flipped it days later. I lost the opportunity to see my first Shig., had to wait for months until I get hands on one. I would have rage quit KKF if I hade another forum to go, lol. 

I usually do not have problem with flipping, for example small increase of up to $50 to cover paypal fees & losses from other selling etc. are reasonable IMHO. Just don’t snatch up BST with the sole purpose for flipping for a few quick bucks.


----------



## Brian Weekley

I am the buyer of the first rust bucket. As I am recently to the world of KKF and knives by western makers I did not know the meaning of “rust bucket” when it came to Dalman’s knives. I wanted a “user” Dalman and, as it seemed reasonably priced in relation to Dalman’s current production, I moved to buy it. So .... I’m at least 50% of this particular “flipper” problem and for that I apologize to all. Sincerely, I apologize! This isn’t my first rodeo. Over the years I’ve been involved in other interests and online markets. Flipping is a problem. What separates “flipping” from taking a reasonable profit over all of the costs involved and the time elapsed since first purchase, or in this case ... gift, is difficult to quantify and to put into words. BUT ... like meat that’s gone off ... one easily recognizes “flipping” from the off smell.

Here’s the rub, though, .... I got what I paid for. I paid $500 plus shipping for a knife that I wanted as a daily user. Would I have paid $600 ... probably ... $700 ... maybe. Should the OP have advertised the knife for $200 ... $300 ... offered to give it away? That doesn’t seem fair.

Is Dalman at fault for making such darn fine knives that demand far outstrips supply? Can’t really blame him for making knives that people really want and hence a bit of a buying frenzy when one comes up. 

Should I have researched the meaning of “rust bucket” more and refused to purchase the knife at the advertised price of $500? Probably ... by doing what I did I created the first round of the “flip”. All I can do is apologize and resolve to not move so quickly in the future. That will be tough for me because a life in business has taught me that not moving decisively generally results in lost opportunity. As I become to know the market better I would not been taken in by by the flip. Despite the fact that I wanted the knife I would refuse to feed the flip. That would IMO have been the best course of action. Would the knife have still sold ... probably. Dalman’s knives, even rust buckets, don’t come up every day. 

In Defense of the OP he did say that he had contacted Dalman and offered to share the selling price with him. That was probably the correct approach to take. If Dalman declined, the next best approach would probably have been to donate half the proceeds to KKF. Without the BST market the flip couldn’t have taken place.

It’s a tough subject and there are no easy answers. I hope I have added to the conversation.


----------



## Bensbites

Brian Weekley said:


> I am the buyer of the first rust bucket. As I am recently to the world of KKF and knives by western makers I did not know the meaning of “rust bucket” when it came to Dalman’s knives. I wanted a “user” Dalman and, as it seemed reasonably priced in relation to Dalman’s current production, I moved to buy it. So .... I’m at least 50% of this particular “flipper” problem and for that I apologize to all. Sincerely, I apologize! This isn’t my first rodeo. Over the years I’ve been involved in other interests and online markets. Flipping is a problem. What separates “flipping” from taking a reasonable profit over all of the costs involved and the time elapsed since first purchase, or in this case ... gift, is difficult to quantify and to put into words. BUT ... like meat that’s gone off ... one easily recognizes “flipping” from the off smell.
> 
> Here’s the rub, though, .... I got what I paid for. I paid $500 plus shipping for a knife that I wanted as a daily user. Would I have paid $600 ... probably ... $700 ... maybe. Should the OP have advertised the knife for $200 ... $300 ... offered to give it away? That doesn’t seem fair.
> 
> Is Dalman at fault for making such darn fine knives that demand far outstrips supply? Can’t really blame him for making knives that people really want and hence a bit of a buying frenzy when one comes up.
> 
> Should I have researched the meaning of “rust bucket” more and refused to purchase the knife at the advertised price of $500? Probably ... by doing what I did I created the first round of the “flip”. All I can do is apologize and resolve to not move so quickly in the future. That will be tough for me because a life in business has taught me that not moving decisively generally results in lost opportunity. As I become to know the market better I would not been taken in by by the flip. Despite the fact that I wanted the knife I would refuse to feed the flip. That would IMO have been the best course of action. Would the knife have still sold ... probably. Dalman’s knives, even rust buckets, don’t come up every day.
> 
> In Defense of the OP he did say that he had contacted Dalman and offered to share the selling price with him. That was probably the correct approach to take. If Dalman declined, the next best approach would probably have been to donate half the proceeds to KKF. Without the BST market the flip couldn’t have taken place.
> 
> It’s a tough subject and there are no easy answers. I hope I have added to the conversation.


Thank you.


----------



## Xenif

Hold on a second here .... Where do we draw the line on what constitutes a flip?

Case #1: Person wins giveaway for free, decided to sell or trade, must assign value. What would be a proper value to assign? 

Case #2: Persons wins raffle for a very low price (let say $25 raffle wins $600 msrp), can that person assign a sell/trade value of the msrp without being considered a flipper?

Case #3: Person buys knife from 2013 (let say a Shig Kasumi for $350), it is now 2020 and the "market price" is now doubled, if that person was to sell/trade, what would be the appropriate value?

Case #4: Person buys knife for $X, works on thinning it and reprofiling it, then puts a sell/trade value of $X+$50


----------



## AT5760

If there were clear lines, this thread probably wouldn’t be so active. I appreciate the discussions that come from this thread, provided they are respectful and people don’t jump to conclusions.


----------



## Dhoff

Xenif said:


> Hold on a second here .... Where do we draw the line on what constitutes a flip?
> 
> Case #1: Person wins giveaway for free, decided to sell or trade, must assign value. What would be a proper value to assign?
> 
> Case #2: Persons wins raffle for a very low price (let say $25 raffle wins $600 msrp), can that person assign a sell/trade value of the msrp without being considered a flipper?
> 
> Case #3: Person buys knife from 2013 (let say a Shig Kasumi for $350), it is now 2020 and the "market price" is now doubled, if that person was to sell/trade, what would be the appropriate value?
> 
> Case #4: Person buys knife for $X, works on thinning it and reprofiling it, then puts a sell/trade value of $X+$50



In my Humble opinion none og those cases are (on the surface) flippings or even bad taste.

Selling knives that are designated as faulty by the Maker and thus given away is not something is personally do, but in both cases the Sellers have made full Disclosure.


----------



## FoRdLaz

My 2c:
As I understand it Robin out of his generosity offered a knife that he considered flawed (not worth selling) but reasonable to work with as a giveaway. 
The fact that whoever took possession of this knife (and others) and decided to sell it on is an insult to Robin and his generosity and the fact that he made available his flawed knives to someone for free not for any profit. 
After this it’s unlikely that Robin (or any other maker for that matter) would give away their flawed knives and one of the reasons is as follows:
Once this knife has changed hands a few times (for sure for a profit every time) it’s original provenance will be forgotten. At some point it will come into someone’s hands as a “Dalman” without the knowledge that it’s a second/rust bucket knife - and then Robin will be judged against it. 
This is fundamentally wrong. 
The correct thing to do is to pass on the same favour that Robin originally made. 
This isn’t a knife that was won in a raffle - in that case I would 100% agree it is the winners prerogative what to do with it and how much to sell it for. 
But for a knife obtained for free (or a nominal price)as a second it should never be used for profiteering.


----------



## panda

Pretty low class to profit off a knife that was given away..

I was given a knife by dalman and it was pretty good one which I gave to a friend as a gift.


----------



## FoRdLaz

panda said:


> Pretty low class to profit off a knife that was given away..
> 
> I was given a knife by dalman and it was pretty good one which I gave to a friend as a gift.



This is how it should be. Just pay it forward. It’s the honorable thing to do. 

And hiding behind “I asked Robin and he said to do with it what I wanted” is no excuse. 

It’s simple logic and courtesy to understand the dynamics of the transaction 

As I said a knife won in a raffle or a completion or whatever is a different story.


----------



## pete84

Stunning that some people feel they are “Victims” of flipping. Not buying a $500-1000+ kitchen knife at one particular opportunity makes someone a “victim”? Pathetic mentality.

And some people publicly refer to other members “shitheads” in this thread because they dont agree with them or their decisions... also pathetic.

This thread represents a one-sided cesspool of negativity and useless vitriol. Under the pretext of “call out culture” and the “community justice” banner, the ani-flippers are creating as toxic an environment and doing as much harm (possibly more) to KKF as the supposed “flipping” they are attempting to police.

Many of the outspoken “anti-flippers” have bought from people labeled “flippers” when it suited them. Many “anti-flippers” flip knives themselves and don't get called out. (You know who you are.)

After getting “called out” here and defending myself, the mod team decided defending their one of their own is more important than social justice for me as a member. They edited/deleted posts in which I answered criticisms and defended myself, then tried to reverse the argument by saying I was being “inflammatory”. Isn’t inflammatory discussion the reason why this thread exists? Yet opposing viewpoints get censored? Unbelievable.

Since then, many members reached out to me privately in agreement and to denounce the members and mods here whose hypocrisy and “anti-flipper” vitriol only serve to create further divisions in this community.

Expect to see me back in BST, bitches


----------



## Dhoff

FoRdLaz said:


> My 2c:
> As I understand it Robin out of his generosity offered a knife that he considered flawed (not worth selling) but reasonable to work with as a giveaway.
> The fact that whoever took possession of this knife (and others) and decided to sell it on is an insult to Robin and his generosity and the fact that he made available his flawed knives to someone for free not for any profit.
> After this it’s unlikely that Robin (or any other maker for that matter) would give away their flawed knives and one of the reasons is as follows:
> Once this knife has changed hands a few times (for sure for a profit every time) it’s original provenance will be forgotten. At some point it will come into someone’s hands as a “Dalman” without the knowledge that it’s a second/rust bucket knife - and then Robin will be judged against it.
> This is fundamentally wrong.
> The correct thing to do is to pass on the same favour that Robin originally made.
> This isn’t a knife that was won in a raffle - in that case I would 100% agree it is the winners prerogative what to do with it and how much to sell it for.
> But for a knife obtained for free (or a nominal price)as a second it should never be used for profiteering.



True, I actually re-entered the thread to state that I felt sorry for Robin. Having knives he is not happy with circulating at the same price as his prime work is not okay.

A suggestion if any makers are so generous again would be to mark the knives somehow? I feel it is a bit sad that it seems to be an issue though. 

From his general postings I do not feel @Bensbites is a bad person though


----------



## Dhoff

pete84 said:


> Stunning that some people feel they are “Victims” of flipping. Not buying a $500-1000+ kitchen knife at one particular opportunity makes someone a “victim”? Pathetic mentality.
> 
> And some people publicly refer to other members “shitheads” in this thread because they dont agree with them or their decisions... also pathetic.
> 
> This thread represents a one-sided cesspool of negativity and useless vitriol. Under the pretext of “call out culture” and the “community justice” banner, the ani-flippers are creating as toxic an environment and doing as much harm (possibly more) to KKF as the supposed “flipping” they are attempting to police.
> 
> Many of the outspoken “anti-flippers” have bought from people labeled “flippers” when it suited them. Many “anti-flippers” flip knives themselves and don't get called out. (You know who you are.)
> 
> After getting “called out” here and defending myself, the mod team decided defending their one of their own is more important than social justice for me as a member. They edited/deleted posts in which I answered criticisms and defended myself, then tried to reverse the argument by saying I was being “inflammatory”. Isn’t inflammatory discussion the reason why this thread exists? Yet opposing viewpoints get censored? Unbelievable.
> 
> Since then, many members reached out to me privately in agreement and to denounce the members and mods here whose hypocrisy and “anti-flipper” vitriol only serve to create further divisions in this community.
> 
> Expect to see me back in BST, bitches



If you cannot see this from the Makers perspective you are less of a person than I thought mate.


----------



## FoRdLaz

pete84 said:


> Stunning that some people feel they are “Victims” of flipping. Not buying a $500-1000+ kitchen knife at one particular opportunity makes someone a “victim”? Pathetic mentality.
> 
> And some people publicly refer to other members “shitheads” in this thread because they dont agree with them or their decisions... also pathetic.
> 
> This thread represents a one-sided cesspool of negativity and useless vitriol. Under the pretext of “call out culture” and the “community justice” banner, the ani-flippers are creating as toxic an environment and doing as much harm (possibly more) to KKF as the supposed “flipping” they are attempting to police.
> 
> Many of the outspoken “anti-flippers” have bought from people labeled “flippers” when it suited them. Many “anti-flippers” flip knives themselves and don't get called out. (You know who you are.)
> 
> After getting “called out” here and defending myself, the mod team decided defending their one of their own is more important than social justice for me as a member. They edited/deleted posts in which I answered criticisms and defended myself, then tried to reverse the argument by saying I was being “inflammatory”. Isn’t inflammatory discussion the reason why this thread exists? Yet opposing viewpoints get censored? Unbelievable.
> 
> Since then, many members reached out to me privately in agreement and to denounce the members and mods here whose hypocrisy and “anti-flipper” vitriol only serve to create further divisions in this community.
> 
> Expect to see me back in BST, bitches



The only one spouting useless vitriol is yourself it seems. 
There are many valid points raised here (and I’m talking specifically about this Dalman second). 
No maker wants his seconds out there circulating for close to full value. 
Yet many have had the opportunity to use and own one to all intents and purposes for free. 
To sell those for profit defeats the generosity of the makers, who have given opportunity of ownership to those who may never have got the chance to otherwise. 
You should be cognizant of this more than anyone else...
#doublestandards


----------



## labor of love

pete84 said:


> Stunning that some people feel they are “Victims” of flipping. Not buying a $500-1000+ kitchen knife at one particular opportunity makes someone a “victim”? Pathetic mentality.
> 
> And some people publicly refer to other members “shitheads” in this thread because they dont agree with them or their decisions... also pathetic.
> 
> This thread represents a one-sided cesspool of negativity and useless vitriol. Under the pretext of “call out culture” and the “community justice” banner, the ani-flippers are creating as toxic an environment and doing as much harm (possibly more) to KKF as the supposed “flipping” they are attempting to police.
> 
> Many of the outspoken “anti-flippers” have bought from people labeled “flippers” when it suited them. Many “anti-flippers” flip knives themselves and don't get called out. (You know who you are.)
> 
> After getting “called out” here and defending myself, the mod team decided defending their one of their own is more important than social justice for me as a member. They edited/deleted posts in which I answered criticisms and defended myself, then tried to reverse the argument by saying I was being “inflammatory”. Isn’t inflammatory discussion the reason why this thread exists? Yet opposing viewpoints get censored? Unbelievable.
> 
> Since then, many members reached out to me privately in agreement and to denounce the members and mods here whose hypocrisy and “anti-flipper” vitriol only serve to create further divisions in this community.
> 
> Expect to see me back in BST, bitches


Maybe cutting back on caffeine would be a good idea for you.


----------



## pete84

I understand Robin is upset and people dont agree with that member’s decision but what gives the community the right to have a say in regards to private property?

Once it becomes private property, its up to the owner what they do with it. Bottom line. 

For example, when you sell a used car to someone, does it matter what Ford or GM or Toyota thinks about the pricing? They made it, put a price on it, and got paid what they asked. Once paid for, its your property and their opinion is moot.


----------



## pete84

labor of love said:


> Maybe cutting back on caffeine would be a good idea for you.



I will reduce caffeine when you start drinking your Shutup juice. Agreed?


----------



## labor of love

pete84 said:


> I understand Robin is upset and people dont agree with that member’s decision but what gives the community the right to have a say in regards to private property?
> 
> Once it becomes private property, its up to the owner what they do with it. Bottom line.
> 
> For example, when you sell a used car to someone, does it matter what Ford or GM or Toyota thinks about the pricing? They made it, put a price on it, and got paid what they asked. Once paid for, its your property and their opinion is moot.


You’re missing the entire point of this thread.


----------



## labor of love

We CAN talk about how we feel on this thread about what happens on BST and how we feel about it. The sooner you understand that we’re exchanging ideas here and not telling anyone what to do the better off you might be.


----------



## pete84

labor of love said:


> You’re missing the entire point of this thread.



Yes, because this thread has degenerated into something pointless


----------



## labor of love

I get it. You want to sell knives at whatever price you feel like selling them at and expect no one to comment on it. That’s not going to happen here.
Cry me a river.
Edit.
Oh wait, you already have.


----------



## FoRdLaz

pete84 said:


> I understand Robin is upset and people dont agree with that member’s decision but what gives the community the right to have a say in regards to private property?
> 
> Once it becomes private property, its up to the owner what they do with it. Bottom line.
> 
> For example, when you sell a used car to someone, does it matter what Ford or GM or Toyota thinks about the pricing? They made it, put a price on it, and got paid what they asked. Once paid for, its your property and their opinion is moot.



You’re deluded.


----------



## pete84

labor of love said:


> I get it. You want to sell knives at whatever price you feel like selling them at and expect no one to comment on it. That’s not going to happen here.
> Cry me a river.



Y’all can and do comment all you want, so whats your point? Its kinda funny how you guys get upset and worked up over this stuff.

Craig, I didn't take you to be a Timberlake fan...hoped you had better taste in music


----------



## pete84

FoRdLaz said:


> You’re deluded.



Not bad, but step it up next time.


----------



## labor of love

Bro, if you start talking smack about Timberlake we will have problems. 
Haha


----------



## Dhoff

Signing out of this.


----------



## ian

Yea, throwing shade on someone's music tastes is off topic. Maybe we can start a new thread named "Bad Taste Alert" and put this stuff in there to keep the current conversation focused.


----------



## pete84




----------



## panda

I sense some saltiness from shitheads here..


----------



## panda

Also, I love JT! My jam right now is 'say something' duet with Chris Stapleton, soooo good!!


----------



## Barmoley

pete84 said:


>



In general I agree with you, private property is that and can be done with as the owner wishes. Like you said, once paid for it is yours. This is a different case though as the knife wasn't paid for it was a special arrangement between the maker and the community. "Flipping" is allowed on the forum and negative comments are not allowed in the BST threads. On the other hand members of the community are free to discuss prices in other threads, why would that not be allowed?

I also don't think anyone is being a victim for missing out on an expensive knife because someone else snagged it on BST to sell for profit later. Annoying yes, but seriously not buying essentials here. Again different case here though, so not sure what point you are trying to make.

One good thing is that knives that Brian buys go into a black hole of knives not to be sold again, so at least with one of these there is no fear of future misunderstanding by someone else


----------



## labor of love

Whenever someone doesn’t like Timberlake I’m like


----------



## valgard

pete84 said:


> I understand Robin is upset and people dont agree with that member’s decision but what gives the community the right to have a say in regards to private property?
> 
> Once it becomes private property, its up to the owner what they do with it. Bottom line.
> 
> For example, when you sell a used car to someone, does it matter what Ford or GM or Toyota thinks about the pricing? They made it, put a price on it, and got paid what they asked. Once paid for, its your property and their opinion is moot.


This is nonsense in the context of this thread and even more so in the context of the particular incident being discussed. 

I'd be ****ing upset if I give something for free and then that person turned around to sell it for a chunk of money. Even more do if it might misrepresent what my work is like.


----------



## madelinez

No one is saying flipping is illegal or should even be against the rules of this forum. This thread is to identify the users that use this community as a source of profit so that other members who sell high demand knives at cost can ensure they sell to someone that shares their community spirit. I don't really see the issue, flippers can keep flipping and if I choose to sell a shig at RRP I can make sure I'm selling it to someone that will use it and then sell it on at RRP. This way the forum works for everyone, so stop saying this thread has no purpose.


----------



## Matus

It seems that some are having a considerably worse weekend than others. Seems that the two sales brought a lot of emotions - and I can fully understand that. I can also understand the spread of opinions. But I am not pleased by all the personal attacks, hate and name calling. 

I am going to save everyone of my personal opinion on this topic, and kindly ask everyone who is about to throw something smelly, than they should rather put it down, wash their hands, take a deep breath and if they still have an opinion to share, then do that in a respectable manner. Give it a try please.


----------



## Codered

Peace


----------



## Codered

Sorry Matus I posted before reading your request for peace.


----------



## daveb

Thanks Matus. My dog's name was "********" and aspersions are being cast on his memory.

We've left this part of this thread alone but there are rules about personal attacks and if this goes further there will be some wholesale housecleaning.

And for those Timberlake fans, the best thing about him is that he's from Canada and not the states.........


----------



## Matus

Codered said:


> Sorry Matus I posted before reading your request for peace.



I am not trying to shut the discussion, just make it more civil. And I do not see any insults in your post so we are cool.

And yes, I know who do you mean. Some more regular flippers actually moved their 'business' outside KKF - mainly IG and some FB groups - as the mood here slowly turned against flipping. There is a LOT of business happening outside KKF that here would not be well received here.


----------



## M1k3

daveb said:


> And for those Timberlake fans, the best thing about him is that he's from Canada and not the states.........



Cheers from the States!


----------



## McMan

daveb said:


> And for those Timberlake fans, the best thing about him is that he's from Canada and not the states.........


That’s Bieber, Dave. I’ll let that slide, but who knows how the Canadians will take that...


----------



## daveb

Whoops. Effing kid celebs, they all look alike.


----------



## labor of love

I’ve actually reconsidered my feelings towards Katos and shigs “flippery” and whatnot.
The time when you somehow lucked out and got a kato for like $450 was so so long ago at this point it really is people selling something for $1100 that they paid $1100 for.
When Valgard posted that nice shig 270mm yo Kasumi gyuto recently for $2500 my first thought was “I bet it could sell for $2800 or even $3k. That’s a good deal.”
It sold in 30 minutes.


----------



## panda

i like labor's avatar


----------



## ian

I still miss the old one with the welcoming outstretched arms. Maybe I'm misremembering the content, though. Hmm.


----------



## labor of love

Drew Brees as a Pope? Oddly enough the saints organization is in hot water right now for allegedly assisting the Catholic Church in....well that’s a hot potato we shouldn’t discuss.


----------



## ian

Oh, hah. Breesus Christ. 

I somehow never got that it was about a football player.... *facepalm*


----------



## aboynamedsuita

Prior to a couple years ago I used to think this was a flipper (or else thedolphin movie), I don’t recall seeing “flipping” here prior


----------



## daveb

aboynamedsuita said:


> or else thedolphin movie),



"Flipper" was a TV show from my youth. Now you've got the song stuck in my head...


----------



## panda

jessica alba was in flipper


----------



## M1k3

They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning


----------



## Gjackson98

I saw Jessica Alba’s name, so I flip through 4pages of chaos and found out we are talking TV shows now.


----------



## daveb

panda said:


> jessica alba was in flipper



Who dat?

She was born in 81. Show was on in 64. Your daddy hadn't even thought of you yet.


----------



## Marek07

Totally off topic but... I saw "cry me a river" and Justin Timberlake mentioned. Had to look that one up. Guess I'm just too old for this crowd. The _*Cry me a River*_ I'm familiar with was written by Arthur Hamilton around the time of my birth. Been recorded by many but no one comes close to Ella Fitzgerald's various renditions.


----------



## ian

Marek07 said:


> Guess I'm just too old for this crowd.


----------



## panda

daveb said:


> Who dat?
> 
> She was born in 81. Show was on in 64. Your daddy hadn't even thought of you yet.


there was a reboot in 95 that she was in first two seasons of.


----------



## Marek07

ian said:


>



Saw that when I looked into it. Thanks but I'll just sit here with the old folk... listenin' to Ella 'n sipping my Lagavulin.


----------



## Dendrobatez

panda said:


> I was given a knife by dalman and it was pretty good one which I gave to a friend as a gift.



Now it's on to its 3rd owner (also freely given)


----------



## WPerry

labor of love said:


> Whenever someone doesn’t like Timberlake I’m likeView attachment 71623



I didn't like him back in the day, but then "Dick in a Box" happened - if that doesn't win you over, nothing will.


----------



## Elliot

Though there has been lots of muck tossed around, I actually agree with the mods here. I like this thread and the education it can provide, but make an effort to not be directly insulting. I will never do business with some of the commenters here. No, that doesn’t make me better or worse. It’s a personal choice. And yes, I would like the greater community to be aware of people like this so that they can decide for themselves. For. Themselves.

However, I was led to believe that the Jknife community had a love for knives and wasn’t about profit or jealousy. Of course, many examples in my time here have proved me wrong, but I will choose to live in the community I want to be a part of. No jealousy over possessions and no taking advantage of demand and other people for profits. And THAT is also a personal choice.

Outside of a legal framework, these are all choices and it’s incumbent upon the members to share info so that others can make educated choices.


----------



## panda

Elliot said:


> Though there has been lots of muck tossed around, I actually agree with the mods here. I like this thread and the education it can provide, but make an effort to not be directly insulting. I will never do business with some of the commenters here. No, that doesn’t make me better or worse. It’s a personal choice. And yes, I would like the greater community to be aware of people like this so that they can decide for themselves. For. Themselves.
> 
> However, I was led to believe that the Jknife community had a love for knives and wasn’t about profit or jealousy. Of course, many examples in my time here have proved me wrong, but I will choose to live in the community I want to be a part of. No jealousy over possessions and no taking advantage of demand and other people for profits. And THAT is also a personal choice.
> 
> Outside of a legal framework, these are all choices and it’s incumbent upon the members to share info so that others can make educated choices.


i'm super jealous over the only known member in here with a honyaki version of the KS..

@bkultra


----------



## Elliot

panda said:


> i'm super jealous over the only known member in here with a honyaki version of the KS..
> 
> @bkultra



Hahahaha. Jealousy in and of itself, as long as it can be had with the absence of malice, is natural.
As an example, I’m not jealous of anyone who has Ashi’s, yo-Kato or stuff like that. Something we should be “jealous” of? Beautiful families with healthy and happy children.

Forgive me for being that guy, but. . . Perspective.


----------



## bkultra

I know of one other member that has a Masamoto honyaki.


----------



## bahamaroot

Well...if I can get $10k for a kato somebody gave me I'ma be a flippin' MF!


----------



## bkultra

Traded my Kato kikuryu for my Burke... I'm the anti flipper.


----------



## labor of love

Traded my shig 210mm for a KS. But that was 2013


----------



## daveb

bahamaroot said:


>



I see Wagu with fins. Who's the anti-flipper now?


----------



## panda

daveb said:


> I see Wagu with fins. Who's the anti-flipper now?


Fishy beef sounds gross


----------



## milkbaby

I'm not sure what makes my eyes roll faster, the flippers or this freaking thread


----------



## Matus

bahamaroot said:


> Well...if I can get $10k for a kato somebody gave me I'ma be a flippin' MF!



I ain't see no Kato, I see a freakin' flippin' Flipper ... how do we ban this one?


----------



## Dhoff

Matus said:


> I ain't see no Kato, I see a freakin' flippin' Flipper ... how do we ban this one?



Just flip it off.

Sorry, dad humor 101


----------



## Matus

Dhoff said:


> Just flip it off.
> Sorry, dad humor 101



I had to google that  ... I guess I am just too nice of a person .


----------



## Dhoff

We know you are mate


----------



## M1k3

....................../´¯/)
....................,/¯../
.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
.........\.................'...../
..........''...\.......... _.·´
............\..............(
..............\.............\...er alert?









Get it?


----------



## Bert2368

panda said:


> Fishy beef sounds gross


----------



## Matus

Just in case anyone wonders, kurouchi 210 Kato workhorse sells for about half ...


----------



## tchan001

Well there is also a hazenberg that looks awfully similar to something sold for a lot less in 2018.
Of course Hazenberg does charge a lot more these days for his newer selections.


----------



## labor of love

Matus said:


> Just in case anyone wonders, kurouchi 210 Kato workhorse sells for about half ...


I’m guessing when you say “sells” you mean retail, not BST value?


----------



## Matus

Indeed


----------



## Elliot

Tsukasa is several hundred cheaper as well: Tsukasa Hinoura Custom Knife "Unryu-Mon" Wa Santoku 165mm (6.4 inch, TH-4)


----------



## Codered

Elliot said:


> Tsukasa is several hundred cheaper as well: Tsukasa Hinoura Custom Knife "Unryu-Mon" Wa Santoku 165mm (6.4 inch, TH-4)


That unryu-mon sold in 2018 when even a 210 river jump was 1600$. Nowadays tsukasa makes fewer knives so price has actually gone up. There is a unryu-mon 165 santoku for sale for 1600euro that’s like 1700$.


----------



## Codered

Matus said:


> Just in case anyone wonders, kurouchi 210 Kato workhorse sells for about half ...


Kato wh ku 210 for 825$? Where and when? kato damascus 240 was 1600$ for retail so we should take that for reference? I would be ok with that.


----------



## Matus

If you need to ask - directly from JNS of course - just check their ‘sold’ items.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Matus said:


> If you need to ask - directly from JNS of course - just check their ‘sold’ items.


----------



## Matus

Corradobrit1 said:


>



I did not say it was easy  - got my WH second hand, go figure


----------



## labor of love

JNS kato prices seem to be the highest Kato retail prices around. At this point anyone scoring an $800 kato is sure to make a little off it, but double the retail price is absurd. “Let the market decide” means numerous price drops until Kato finally sells.


----------



## Corradobrit1

labor of love said:


> JNS kato prices seem to be the highest Kato retail prices around. At this point anyone scoring an $800 kato is sure to make a little off it, but double the retail price is absurd. “Let the market decide” means numerous price drops until Kato finally sells.


Unfortunately in 2020 JNS is the only reliable online retail source for a Kato, but you gotta be quick and/or lucky. Even retailers in Japan are hit or miss with all the local flippers hoovering up supply.


----------



## danemonji

Last kato standard 240 nothing special about it, on auction last week was 2000$ in japan. That with transport fees and customs makes an absurd price. Yet it sold. Funny thing is Morihei sells the same knife for 150k yen (1450$) so there are a lot of collectors with cash who don't follow KKF


----------



## labor of love

danemonji said:


> Last kato standard 240 nothing special about it, sold on auction last week was 2000$ in japan. That with transport fees and customs makes an absurd price. Yet it sold. Funny thing is Morihei sells the same knife for 150k yen (1450$) so there are a lot of collectors with cash who don't follow KKF


KU?


----------



## danemonji

Migaki. Sorry for bad information. It did not sell that was the price the auction finished but no one bid. I was under impression it sold. my misstake.


----------



## Matus

KU is the cheapest of all Katos to buy new (IF you manage to score one). Makes sense to me


----------



## danemonji

Morihei sells both the same price 150k yen. Yet KU is more rare since not no many came from JNS and there are fewer available. And it is the better knife compared to migaki version at least from my point of view.


----------



## Corradobrit1

danemonji said:


> beeter


Better or Beater?


----------



## labor of love

Matus said:


> KU is the cheapest of all Katos to buy new (IF you manage to score one). Makes sense to me


Yet the Flipper market seems willing to pay a bit more for the KU Katos. I’m no expert on any of this, just an observer.

Edit: because of rarity. I get it.


----------



## ma_sha1

Corradobrit1 said:


> Better or Beater?



A better beater?


----------



## danemonji

ma_sha1 said:


> A better beater?





Corradobrit1 said:


> Better or Beater?


Much better. And a beater since it keeps its looks after months of use. Plus so easy to sharpen and maintain. But you have both so you know what i mean


----------



## Bcos17

There is a new knife shop vendor that appears to buy knives and immediately flip them for profit on his retail site. It appears to be his main business model. Not a very honorable way to make a living.


----------



## daveb

Bcos17 said:


> There is a new knife shop vendor that appears to buy knives and immediately flip them for profit on his retail site. It appears to be his main business model. Not a very honorable way to make a living.



Can you share which vendor? Would like to avoid it.


----------



## Matus

Bcos17 said:


> There is a new knife shop vendor that appears to buy knives and immediately flip them for profit on his retail site. It appears to be his main business model. Not a very honorable way to make a living.



Please share the name of the vendor


----------



## Corradobrit1

Bcos17 said:


> There is a new knife shop vendor that appears to buy knives and immediately flip them for profit on his retail site. It appears to be his main business model. Not a very honorable way to make a living.


Name please


----------



## Jville

Bcos17 said:


> There is a new knife shop vendor that appears to buy knives and immediately flip them for profit on his retail site. It appears to be his main business model. Not a very honorable way to make a living.


Nombre, por favor.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

Bout time this subject was brought up again.


----------



## labor of love

Bcos17 said:


> There is a new knife shop vendor that appears to buy knives and immediately flip them for profit on his retail site. It appears to be his main business model. Not a very honorable way to make a living.


Sounds like a pawn shop.


----------



## BillHanna

Bcos17 said:


> There is a new knife shop vendor that appears to buy knives and immediately flip them for profit on his retail site. It appears to be his main business model. Not a very honorable way to make a living.


имя, пожалуйста


----------



## Bcos17

I shared the name with the Mods. Not sure if its appropriate to share it here. If anyone wants to DM me, feel free.


----------



## marc4pt0

Don't ALL knife stores/ retailers do this? Not to be rude, but this seems to be a model used By the vast majority.
It's certainly what I've always done at my restaurants.


----------



## ian

Bcos17 said:


> I shared the name with the Mods. Not sure if its appropriate to share it here. If anyone wants to DM me, feel free.



Two of the mods already asked you to share it! You’re gonna get flooded with PMs if you don’t just post it here...




marc4pt0 said:


> Don't ALL knife stores/ retailers do this? Not to be rude, but this seems to be a model used the vast majority.



I’m assuming bcos is talking about someone quickly buying up knives that are being sold publicly, and then reselling at a higher price with minimal added value. That’s different than how most of the vendors we talk about work. But yea, it’s hard to distinguish between normal vendor behavior and abnormal without details.


----------



## Bcos17

I’m assuming bcos is talking about someone quickly buying up knives that are being sold publicly, and then reselling at a higher price with minimal added value. That’s different than how most of the vendors we talk about work. But yea, it’s hard to distinguish between normal vendor behavior and abnormal without details.
[/QUOTE]

This is right.


----------



## Corradobrit1

ian said:


> I’m assuming bcos is talking about someone quickly buying up knives that are being sold publicly, and then reselling at a higher price with minimal added value. That’s different than how most of the vendors we talk about work. But yea, it’s hard to distinguish between normal vendor behavior and abnormal without details.


Wasn't this the sOreal selling strategy? Buy low on the forums and flip high. At the very least its shady


----------



## labor of love

Doesn’t seem like a big deal to me....until more is revealed I have a hard time caring about this at all.
My only concern is the flippery on the forum as I’d rather see guys take it elsewhere.


----------



## tchan001

Bcos17 said:


> There is a new knife shop vendor that appears to buy knives and immediately flip them for profit on his retail site. It appears to be his main business model. Not a very honorable way to make a living.


I've often wondered how such a shop operates. First of all, it would have to be started by a keen knife collector to know which knives are good value. But for knives which are very high in demand, it might not be able to be the first to press the buy button or DM button. For other expensive picks, they might not sell at the price it wants to profit with or it might lack market demand and not sell at all. It's a flipping store so it doesn't have makers supplying directly with a distrubtor discount. But there is a pressure by its cusomers to keep supplying great knives to keep up its reputation amongst its customers. So it might have to pick up things which don't sell as well. Assuming the store is used by its knife collector owner to earn a little extra to support his own knife collection, the collector takes a huge risk that the knives bought for flipping end up being an ever increasing inventory tying up his capital. It would seem that in the end the collector will have a collection of knives which he might like but not love because the gems have all been sold and the rest do not shine as brightly. So while we might frown on flipping, I'd have to wish this collector good luck with his business model.


----------



## Matus

Just give us a little more time to built up some pressure


----------



## labor of love

I can see feeling bothered by maybe a little flippery on the low sub $1k...

But to be honest the bnib above $2k crowd can buy sell and flip amongst each other until their hearts content. At that price point they’ve effectively admitted they’re okay with paying premiums to get what they want.


----------



## LostHighway

tchan001 said:


> I've often wondered how such a shop operates. First of all, it would have to be started by a keen knife collector to know which knives are good value. But for knives which are very high in demand, it might not be able to be the first to press the buy button or DM button. For other expensive picks, they might not sell at the price it wants to profit with or it might lack market demand and not sell at all. It's a flipping store so it doesn't have makers supplying directly with a distrubtor discount. But there is a pressure by its cusomers to keep supplying great knives to keep up its reputation amongst its customers. So it might have to pick up things which don't sell as well. Assuming the store is used by its knife collector owner to earn a little extra to support his own knife collection, the collector takes a huge risk that the knives bought for flipping end up being an ever increasing inventory tying up his capital. It would seem that in the end the collector will have a collection of knives which he might like but not love because the gems have all been sold and the rest do not shine as brightly. So while we might frown on flipping, I'd have to wish this collector good luck with his business model.



That scenario is extremely plausible but if the shop owner acts in at least some cases as a consignment shop, taking a very healthy cut without expending any capital it starts to look quite attractive. Essentially art galleries act in this manner but with considerably more overhead in the way of a physical location, staff, etc. Personally, I'm less magnanimous in my wishes.


----------



## tchan001

ian said:


> I’m assuming bcos is talking about someone quickly buying up knives that are being sold publicly, and then reselling at a higher price with minimal added value. That’s different than how most of the vendors we talk about work. But yea, it’s hard to distinguish between normal vendor behavior and abnormal without details.





Bcos17 said:


> This is right.


From the description, most of it's stock seems to be based on its own capital.


----------



## labor of love

tchan001 said:


> This is right.


From the description, most of it's stock seems to be based on its own capital.
[/QUOTE]
The difference here is time preference. It takes capital and investment to have merchandise sit on the shelf for long periods of time until it finally sells.
A BST seller will sell for less often because he’d rather not wait 2 months or whatever to have a knife purchased.


----------



## labor of love

wrong thread.


----------



## Jaszer13

labor of love said:


> From the description, most of it's stock seems to be based on its own capital.


The difference here is time preference. It takes capital and investment to have merchandise sit on the shelf for long periods of time until it finally sells.
A BST seller will sell for less often because he’d rather not wait 2 months or whatever to have a knife purchased.
[/QUOTE]

+1 if this seller is buying KKF members BST stock then good on him. It opens up monies for KKF members to keep our cycle going (buy, use, sell, repeat). 

It all comes down to a buyers due diligence. I've bought knives from vendors that were once sold on here and kicked myself in the arse once I found out how much more I paid. But the reality is, I wanted it and so I purchased it. I could've waited or I could've not bought it. That simple.


----------



## tchan001

I hope that store is open to selling to international buyers because many sellers on BST restrict their sales to CONUS. So in a way, that store can add value IF international sales are available.


----------



## labor of love

tchan001 said:


> I hope that store is open to selling to international buyers because many sellers on BST restrict their sales to CONUS. So in a way, that store can add value IF international sales are available.


Guilty and sorry. I didn’t create this world I’m just living in it.


----------



## pete84

Can’t have your cake and eat it too - either flippery is evil absolutely and profit makes you a bad person (because you are a damn communist) OR IT ISN’T.

To be a liked KKF member means taking a loss on your knives in BST is part of the membership dues, apparently.


----------



## Panamapeet

pete84 said:


> Can’t have your cake and eat it too - either flippery is evil absolutely and profit makes you a bad person (because you are a damn communist) OR IT ISN’T.
> 
> To be a liked KKF member means taking a loss on your knives in BST is part of the membership dues, apparently.


Lol, don’t get your panties in a bunch dude


----------



## AT5760

Did OP mention or imply that this person/business is using BST to get their inventory?


----------



## tchan001

Bcos17 said:


> I shared the name with the Mods. Not sure if its appropriate to share it here. If anyone wants to DM me, feel free.


The OP shared the name with the Mods which implies that BST is used to get some of their inventory.


----------



## labor of love

pete84 said:


> Can’t have your cake and eat it too - either flippery is evil absolutely and profit makes you a bad person (because you are a damn communist) OR IT ISN’T.
> 
> To be a liked KKF member means taking a loss on your knives in BST is part of the membership dues, apparently.


I lose money on sells and am on the keto diet and people still hate me. 
Guess I’ll never get to eat cake again.


----------



## pete84

People buy and sell things all the time, make and lose money all the time, buying selling everything everywhere all the time.

Never bothered me what other individuals decide do with their things; as long as they don’t tell me what to do with mine, all is well.

There are good and bad actors, helpful and hurtful people, greedy versus altruistic in every realm. To somehow expect the kitchen knife hobby to be any different is either ignorant or naïve. Worse, trying to enforce these expectations of a knife utopia via censorship and policing a community’s voices and forum posts - that’s totalitarian. It’s happened here and elsewhere, both in act and principle.

With social media and the Internet, the peanut gallery and their opinions often get more attention than the actors/movers/shakers. But believe me, lots of extremely high end and desirable knives move around daily and globally without the help of KKF. Because the community transcends any one forum.


----------



## Matus

Many of us don’t like flipping so we point it out. Deal with it


----------



## Barmoley

Pete makes many valid points. What ends up happening is that most desirable knives very rarely see BST and instead get sold and bought outside of it. How this benefits the community I don’t know, but it is what it is. I am still in the camp of “if you don’t like the price, don’t buy, no one is forcing you” and stop whining about it.


----------



## TSF415

The flipping thing is kinda bs. If you go back why this post was set up its far different from what people describe now. I've seen many members buy and flip right on BST with nobody calling them out because they are a "well known member." I saw a 210mm Denka sell for under 450 and sold for 600 weeks later and no one said anything but what a nice knife. I don't believe flipping should happen on the forum as its a community. Take your great buys and sell them elsewhere. But it happens. I would never do it because I believe I've come across great deals and want to give out great deals for other members to try knives.


----------



## labor of love

I’m not sure what the argument even is here. You’re totally allowed to flip knives for as much as you would like in bst. 
$2k kato 240mm sujis might not sell though


----------



## Barmoley

What sucks is that while we discourage flipping the knives leave the community, so now to find them it is not enough to stay within the community. Now, one has to go all over the place to find them, especially knives that are rare. Imam not sure this is a net positive. At least if the knife is flipped here it stays here and so someone else within the community can get it if they so choose. I also strongly dislike that sellers have to explain themselves if the price is anywhere close or higher to what they paid. Shouldn’t the selling price be somewhere below but close to current market price?


----------



## ian

pete84 said:


> Never bothered me what other individuals decide do with their things; as long as they don’t tell me what to do with mine, all is well.



Cool!



Matus said:


> Many of us don’t like flipping so we point it out. Deal with it



Cool!


----------



## Barmoley

labor of love said:


> I’m not sure what the argument even is here. You’re totally allowed to flip knives for as much as you would like in bst.
> $2k kato 240mm sujis might not sell though


I think the issue is that even though flipping is allowed by the rules, it is so strongly discouraged by ganging up on perceived flippers that it being not against the rules is moot.


----------



## ian

If you sell a $600 knife for $700, is it flipping if you endure $100 worth of criticism and shaming? Gotta pay for the therapy somehow.


----------



## labor of love

So freedom to flip isn’t enough? Now flippers want control of our hearts and minds?


----------



## ian

I think it’s enough that all the criticism is isolated here. If you wanna sell for more than you bought, do it and don’t read this thread. Your image as a flipper isn’t gonna stop you from selling your next overpriced knife. If people want a knife as a certain price, they’ll buy it unless the seller has a reputation of not following through.


----------



## Barmoley

labor of love said:


> So freedom to flip isn’t enough? Now flippers want control of our hearts and minds?


There are written and unwritten rules in every community, just because you are officially allowed to do something doesn’t mean you are free to do it.


ian said:


> I think it’s enough that all the criticism is isolated here. If you wanna sell for more than you bought, do it and don’t read this thread. Your image as a flipper isn’t gonna stop you from selling your next overpriced knife. If people want a knife as a certain price, they’ll buy it unless the seller has a reputation of not following through.


Agreed. BST is for selling, this thread is for whining. Both are allowed. The discussion is just that, these are discussion forums after all and flipping always makes for good debates.


----------



## Barmoley

I think what bothers me the most is not flipping or anti-flipping, but the ganging up and group think. Unfortunately, these too are part of life....


----------



## daveb

I remain a simple guy. It's not flipped until it's sold. If it's sold, it's not flipped.


Not saying it's not tacky.


----------



## labor of love

Lemme play this old LP, maybe it will sound different this week.


----------



## Codered

In Europe tax on imported goods outside EU is 25%. You add transport fees also. So a 2000$ buy becomes a 2500$ buy in the end. Most knife makers are outside Europe so we pay over 25% on every buy. Even EU knife makers have higher prices for EU since for non EU they deduce 20% vat tax. Is it called flipping if i sell the knife for what i payed?


----------



## labor of love

Barmoley said:


> Agreed. BST is for selling, this thread is for whining.


Only thing I’ve whined about is not being able to eat cake.
@ian wont cook me any.


----------



## Barmoley

labor of love said:


> Only thing I’ve whined about is not being able to eat cake.
> @ian wont cook me any.


@ian is just being supportive and is respecting your keto lifestyle. A true friend, you know how much he likes to bake.


----------



## TSF415

I was running between seating tables and ranting and didn't complete my thought but I don't really care to type anymore.


----------



## labor of love




----------



## daveb

Douche x 100


----------



## Midsummer

If it sells the price is right. If it doesn’t it isn’t.

Not everyone gets first place. The world is not fair and it is not my job to fix it.


----------



## applepieforbreakfast

Codered said:


> In Europe tax on imported goods outside EU is 25%. You add transport fees also. So a 2000$ buy becomes a 2500$ buy in the end. Most knife makers are outside Europe so we pay over 25% on every buy. Even EU knife makers have higher prices for EU since for non EU they deduce 20% vat tax. Is it called flipping if i sell the knife for what i payed?



This is another good question.

Is it the buyer's problem to pay the seller's taxes on the knife? Or is that the cost of doing business?


----------



## Barmoley

applepieforbreakfast said:


> This is another good question.
> 
> Is it the buyer's problem to pay the seller's taxes on the knife? Or is that the cost of doing business?


Easy. The seller sets the price, the buyer buys or not. The seller adjusts the price if the knife doesn't sell in the time frame the seller wants. No explanation needed for the set price.


----------



## Luftmensch

labor of love said:


> Lemme play this old LP, maybe it will sound different this week.



The one with the crack in it?


----------



## Luftmensch

Barmoley said:


> There are written and unwritten rules in every community, just because you are officially allowed to do something doesn’t mean you are free to do it.



I'll be the resident pedant  ...just for fun of course...

When you are officially allowed to do something, that means you _are_ free to do it. 

What I think you mean is... "just because you are officially allowed to do it, doesnt mean it is the _right_ thing to do"...

.... Cue 18 page thread on what is '_right_'....


----------



## Barmoley

Luftmensch said:


> I'll be the resident pedant  ...just for fun of course...
> 
> When you are officially allowed to do something, that means you _are_ free to do it.
> 
> What I think you mean is... "just because you are officially allowed to do it, doesnt mean it is the _right_ thing to do"...
> 
> .... Cue 18 page thread on what is '_right_'....



That's not what I meant, I meant what I said. Thank you for trying to help though.


----------



## soigne_west

Luftmensch said:


> I'll be the resident pedant  ...just for fun of course...
> 
> When you are officially allowed to do something, that means you _are_ free to do it.
> 
> What I think you mean is... "just because you are officially allowed to do it, doesnt mean it is the _right_ thing to do"...
> 
> .... Cue 18 page thread on what is '_right_'....



WOW... thank you for clearing that up...


----------



## Moooza

When individuals do it, it's flipping, but when a shop does it, it's OK?

I see so many things sold on Japanese auctions that then end up on the JNS website a few days later for three times the price - it's OK because you get a 'warranty'?


----------



## tchan001

Quote from *Guidelines for Buy/Sell/Trade (B/S/T) Forums*

"Negative comments in sales threads are forbidden and will result in revocation of B/S/T forum privileges. This includes -ANY unfavorable comment on member pricing, ANY impugning comment on the perceived quality of the knife or perceived defects or ANY disparaging comment on the knife maker or original vendor/seller. This is not the place to save the world from a perceived overpriced knife. "

The BST threads do not allow negative in the sales threads. BUT there are no restrictions to mentioning negative comments outside of the BST threads posted in other areas of the forum other than BST.

The current thread is to alert others to the presence of flippers. There are no guidelines that say we cannot talk about what certain knives cost at certain stores compared with current knives on sale on certain BST threads as long as it is outside the BST area of the forum. There are no guidelines saying we cannot discuss flipper activities in the forum when discussed outside the actual BST threads. Negative comments are only forbidden within the sales threads.

In fact mods have asked the OP who talked about the store involved in flipping to share the name and implies that the name should be shared beyond just the mods themselves.



daveb said:


> Can you share which vendor? Would like to avoid it.





Matus said:


> Please share the name of the vendor





Matus said:


> Just give us a little more time to built up some pressure


----------



## Matus

The sad thing is, that it appears that the main reason why Bcos17 did not say the name if the business yet is the hostility here. We (mods) are not standing in the way.


----------



## Luftmensch

Barmoley said:


> That's not what I meant, I meant what I said. Thank you for trying to help though.



I was being cheeky before for fun... But now I am confused. What do you mean? I am not sure I follow? How can you not be free to do something that is officially allowed? Either you are allowed to do something or you arent?

I 100% agree with you, there are written and unwritten _norms_ in every community. To be picky about language, there isn't such a thing as an unwritten _rule_. If it were a rule in the first place it would be_ explicit_. There are also likely to be unwritten _etiquette_ and _expectations_ - but they are not the same thing as 'rules'.

I am not condoning bad behaviour, explicit or implicit.... but you gotta admit, it doesnt take long in this world to learn that people are free to be arseholes without coming anywhere close to breaking 'rules'.

Edit: Huh! I guess the forum software wasnt written to filter British English?


----------



## Corradobrit1

Moooza said:


> I see so many things sold on Japanese auctions that then end up on the JNS website a few days later for three times the price - it's OK because you get a 'warranty'?


Thats quite a statement. Got any verifiable examples?


----------



## applepieforbreakfast

Barmoley said:


> Easy. The seller sets the price, the buyer buys or not. The seller adjusts the price if the knife doesn't sell in the time frame the seller wants. No explanation needed for the set price.



Thanks, I already understand basic economic principles. 

I was trying to get an idea about how KKF feels about sellers who try to include any taxes they paid in their asking price.


----------



## Matus

Moooza said:


> I see so many things sold on Japanese auctions that then end up on the JNS website a few days later for three times the price - it's OK because you get a 'warranty'?



We are all very eager to see a proof


----------



## AT5760

1. My (perhaps naive) assumption has always been that the retailers regularly discussed here are getting their inventory directly from the makers. If that is not the case, I'd like to know. The more hands that touch a product, the greater the likelihood that goods are altered or that counterfeits get injected into the system. I have nowhere near enough knowledge to spot a "fake" so I want to be able to rely on retailers' representations.

2. I have no objection to people selling, or even re-selling, knives at a profit. If I was at the point where I could afford and appreciate a Tsukasa Hinoura or Rader I would willingly pay over "retail" to get a unique, hard-to-find knife. But I'm not. I'm buying infrequently at a much lower price point. And I appreciate when members of this community look out for each other by flagging circumstances where someone is re-selling at a clear profit. It makes me a more informed potential buyer. It doesn't mean the seller is doing anything wrong in offering a knife for sale, but it injects some sunlight into a process that can be murky for a lot of people.


----------



## parbaked

applepieforbreakfast said:


> I was trying to get an idea about how KKF feels about sellers who try to include any taxes they paid in their asking price.



Taxes and shipping are part of the purchase cost.
If one buys a knife for $100 and also pays $18 tax and shipping, the knife cost $118.
Recouping one's cost is not flipping...


----------



## Barmoley

applepieforbreakfast said:


> Thanks, I already understand basic economic principles.
> 
> I was trying to get an idea about how KKF feels about sellers who try to include any taxes they paid in their asking price.


Sorry, I was being cheeky or you could say an arsehole. 

I was saying that the seller should not have to explain what goes into the asking price. The seller just needs to set the price and the buyer decides if the price is right. The buyer can even contact the seller and offer a different price or arrangement.

As you can see there are basically two extremes here. One group says any knife once bought by any member is used and as such should have lower price on the next sale. The other group says sellers set whatever price and buyers decide if the price is correct. Some people fall in between and believe that it depends on who the sellers are, what the knives are etc. 

I don't think you'll get a consensus. If including taxes is ok. I think it is silly for me as an American to expect a European to sell me a knife with 20-25% discount just because I wouldn't pay vat if I bought the knife in the first place.


----------



## riba

Still vividly remember the 190 usd import tax for a dammy Wat. Damn


----------



## maxim

Matus said:


> We are all very eager to see a proof


Me too


----------



## tchan001

If you sell knives which lots of people want and they are willing to pay higher than retail price, you will probably be able to recoup your taxes and postage and make a profit.
If you sell knives which some people want but they are very indecisive regarding these knives, you'll have to be shrewd in calculating what the market will bear and balance it with how long of a wait you will bear.
If you sell knives which few people want, you might end up being stuck with them unless you offer very low prices.
If you sell knives which nobody really wants, good luck with sales.


----------



## Ruso

Midsummer said:


> If it sells the price is right. If it doesn’t it isn’t.
> 
> Not everyone gets first place. The world is not fair and it is not my job to fix it.


Where is the dislike button when you need one.


----------



## parbaked

Ruso said:


> Where is the dislike button when you need one.


If you hover over the "like" icon, you can leave a "sad" or "angry" response. That is the "dislike" button...


----------



## Corradobrit1

Midsummer said:


> If it sells the price is right. If it doesn’t it isn’t.
> 
> Not everyone gets first place. The world is not fair and it is not my job to fix it.


Cue Hot Chocolate


----------



## Midsummer

.


----------



## BillHanna

The world IS NOT fair, but it you have an easy opportunity to level it out a bit, like say alert like minded people to unethical practice, isn't it a _*borderline *_duty to do so?



ALSO: There are threads here that really put cheese in my cheerios. My solution has been to not read them, instead of getting mad at a thread that is not for me from post number one.

(this is weird replying to a post that is now AFTER mine)


----------



## Midsummer

Ruso said:


> Where is the dislike button when you need one.


Sorry to have stirred your emotions.

Now that you have made it public you dislike something I have written. Perhaps you can see past your scorn and enlighten me and others who may have taken an interest.

Or would you just prefer to leave you general distain?


----------



## Midsummer

BillHanna said:


> The world IS NOT fair, but it you have an easy opportunity to level it out a bit, like say alert like minded people to unethical practice, isn't it a _*borderline *_duty to do so?



I would happily compare what I have sacrificed to care for the less well off with anybody on this site and have little concern over how I may appear.

That said I have done what I have done out of compassion and not duty.

I believe duty often gets ignored. For a greater humanity we need a spirit of compassion not some external sense of duty.


----------



## Bodine

I dont get the whole flipper deal, I make more on investments than they do re selling knives, not to mention the hassle they go through.


----------



## BillHanna

@Midsummer I get that. I was struggling for a word at that moment, which is why I applied emphasis to borderline. I suppose I should have just said it's a nice thing to do.

I agree with everything you said, though


Midsummer said:


> I would happily compare what I have sacrificed to care for the less well off with anybody on this site and have little concern over how I may appear.
> 
> That said I have done what I have done out of compassion and not duty.
> 
> I believe duty often gets ignored. For a greater humanity we need a spirit of compassion not some external sense of duty.


----------



## M1k3




----------



## BillHanna

that's what sea said?


----------



## Twigg

Kantian Ethics and Theory aside, I think those on this board that feel they should pass along a knife without profit are following what they see fit to do in the spirit of comradeship, just like those that flip for profit are doing what they see fit to do. Those that wish to resell at or below their original investment are free to guide their sales toward like-minded individuals to keep that line of transactions going. This seems like much to do about nothing.

I think one of the worst flippers is actually CM. She really marks up those used farrier rasps.


----------



## ma_sha1

Twigg said:


> I think one of the worst flippers is actually CM



Did you just call CM Punk a flipper? I think he might have heard you


----------



## daveb

She's much prettier.

(Or have you done a "modification"?)


----------



## Moooza

I'm going to withdraw what I said and apologise for my mistake. I provided an example to a mod or something, but I can see that it was not definitive and could very well be mistaken - correlation of four examples is not causation.

I'll keep an eye out, but I'm off the Japanese auctions after being continually outbid by the same person on the same types of items. Plus I've spent way too much lately....


----------



## lemeneid

Every other forum I’ve been subscribed to, we’ve cheered whenever something sold for an obscenely higher price. It’s sorta validation that the value of our collection is ever growing. And whether you’re a beginner or huge collector, you’re encouraged to bid even higher.

Over here this is frowned upon and discouraged and considered toxic behavior. That’s why you will never get to see the interesting stuff being traded here, simply because collectors don’t feel welcome. Go on IG and see for yourself, see how many previously active KKF users there have so much shiny stuff on offer. The knife community is so much bigger than KKF and if collectors don’t feel welcome, it’s just going to get smaller.

On the other hand, it seems like "collectors" here are all just cheap bastards not willing to put in the time and effort to obtain what they want.


----------



## drsmp

As long as a seller accurately represents the item’s history and condition, let the market -not the forum Price Police- decide it’s value. There are quite a few knives I would gladly pay a premium for.


----------



## Kippington

lemeneid said:


> Every other forum I’ve been subscribed to, we’ve cheered whenever something sold for an obscenely higher price. It’s sorta validation that the value of our collection is ever growing. And whether you’re a beginner or huge collector, you’re encouraged to bid even higher.
> 
> Over here this is frowned upon and discouraged and considered toxic behavior. That’s why you will never get to see the interesting stuff being traded here, simply because collectors don’t feel welcome. Go on IG and see for yourself, see how many previously active KKF users there have so much shiny stuff on offer. The knife community is so much bigger than KKF and if collectors don’t feel welcome, it’s just going to get smaller.
> 
> On the other hand, it seems like "collectors" here are all just cheap bastards not willing to put in the time and effort to obtain what they want.


Context though...

Buy a damaged knife for $60
Ask PayPal for $60 refund
Sell it for $350
Maybe I got this wrong, I didn't read the whole thread, but I'm not cheering for that...


----------



## Barashka

The border is fuzzy, that's why this is such a discussion.
No one will blame people selling Shigs for $1k they bought for $400 5 years ago and kept in great order.
People do frown on people selling Shigs for $1500 that they just bought yesterday for $1k because someone else didn't want to be a flipper.

Collector prices increasing in prices with time is fine/good/accepted/encouraged?/justified .. but _time_ is kinda key here. I can see how making quick buck off someone else's good nature should not be encouraged.


----------



## labor of love

KKF was historically never a collector forum. We saw a huge spike in collecting minded people join in 2016-2017 and have seen attempts to push the forum away from being a “helper forum” (maxims words) towards something more akin to collecting Watches, or some other luxury item. 
To this day the majority of the people that are here aren’t collecting crap but using/maintaining knives and attempting to show noobs how to do the same (atleast the ones that don’t smell like reddit).
There really just needs to be a separate forum where you can wheel and deal knives based on speculation of rarity and desirability. Just treat them like stocks on Wall Street.
Oh wait, you can do that here. And on IG. And on eBay.


----------



## Midsummer

labor of love said:


> KKF was historically never a collector forum. We saw a huge spike in collecting minded people join in 2016-2017 and have seen attempts to push the forum away from being a “helper forum” (maxims words) towards something more akin to collecting Watches, or some other luxury item.
> To this day the majority of the people that are here aren’t collecting crap but using/maintaining knives and attempting to show noobs how to do the same (atleast the ones that don’t smell like reddit).
> There really just needs to be a separate forum where you can wheel and deal knives based on speculation of rarity and desirability. Just treat them like stocks on Wall Street.
> Oh wait, you can do that here. And on IG. And on eBay.



I would hate to loose the"helper forum" part of KKF. Its what makes me come back to this place again and again.


----------



## juice

Midsummer said:


> I would hate to loose the"helper forum" part of KKF. Its what makes me come back to this place again and again.


That's how I landed here, and decided to join in after a good month or so of reading. (No, thanks, I won't just go back to just reading, even though I can hear you all thinking it...)


----------



## Corradobrit1

juice said:


> That's how I landed here, and decided to join in after a good month or so of reading. (No, thanks, I won't just go back to just reading, even though I can hear you all thinking it...)


More culling less posting


----------



## Luftmensch

labor of love said:


> To this day the majority of the people that are here aren’t collecting crap but using/maintaining knives and attempting to show noobs how to do the same



I hope it stays that way. Having a community of some creative folk, whether it be knife makers, chefs, talented home cooks or DIY is entertaining. I think the forum would become rather dull if it just became mercantile....


----------



## captaincaed

Midsummer said:


> I would hate to loose the"helper forum" part of KKF. Its what makes me come back to this place again and again.


Yeah its what snared me.

As for sales, prices, it's hard to argue with market forces. Still, this forum still let me try a **** load of knives in a short time and not incur terrible losses. I'll never own a Raquin unless I find one at Goodwill, but I've still had a bunch of fun.


----------



## labor of love




----------



## labor of love

captaincaed said:


> I'll never own a Raquin unless I find one at Goodwill, but I've still had a bunch of fun.


I feel like whenever word gets around that a maker takes 3 years to make a knife and they’re already super difficult to come by is when the forum decides they really really want one.


----------



## captaincaed

labor of love said:


> I feel like whenever word gets around that a maker takes 3 years to make a knife and they’re already super difficult to come by is when the forum decides they really really want one.


Yeah I stepped out of the PA because I just didn't want to get sucked into the funnel. I've got plenty of great knives in the same class.


----------



## Carl Kotte

I once drew a perfect a perfect beige Lion on a Misono - essentially claiming authorship of the knife - and only charged artist’s fee; fight me! ( @Gregmega Not bad, ey?!).


----------



## juice

I WANT THS KNIFE


----------



## Carl Kotte

juice said:


> I WANT THS KNIFE


----------



## juice

Carl Kotte said:


> I once drew a perfect a perfect beige Lion on a Misono - essentially claiming authorship of the knife - and only charged artist’s fee; fight me! (


The Scandanavian @ma_sha1 strikes again!


----------



## ian

Carl is the anti ma_sha. He only changes the kanji.


----------



## Carl Kotte

As a non native I don’t really know the difference between forging and forgery.


----------



## ma_sha1

juice said:


> The Scandanavian @ma_sha1 strikes again!



I am not worthy, that Picasso level of sketches on Misono makes it an art, true collector’s piece. just look at it, flip it 10x if you’d like, people would pay, @JML checkbook, to hang it on the wall!

Ask 10,000 questions, but never use the knife.


----------



## ian

I think we’re looking at a potential collaboration. Carl, send it to ma_sha and he can turn it into a Beige Lion honesuki!


----------



## juice

ian said:


> I think we’re looking at a potential collaboration. Carl, send it to ma_sha and he can turn it into a Beige Lion honesuki!


And THEN to me! I would own the most iconic knife in KKF history!


----------



## Carl Kotte

My art is so misunderstood


----------



## juice

Carl Kotte said:


> My art is so misunderstood


That's why I want to own it!


----------



## Carl Kotte




----------



## ian

Carl Kotte said:


> As a non native I don’t really know the difference between forging and forgery.



As a native (American, but not a Native American), I am continually impressed by how perfectly you and other members from non-English-speaking countries speak English. Perfect, but also with a broad command of unusual vocabulary, and not just the knife specific stuff. I suppose there’s some self selection going on when you choose to join a knife forum conducted in English, and I know there are lots of people in the world that speak more than one language perfectly, so maybe I’m not _surprised_, but I am humbled, given my own difficulties with foreign languages.


----------



## Carl Kotte

ian said:


> As a native (American, but not a Native American), I am continually impressed by how perfectly you and other members from non-English-speaking countries speak English. Perfect, but also with a broad command of unusual vocabulary, and not just the knife specific stuff. I suppose there’s some self selection going on when you choose to join a knife forum conducted in English, and I know there are lots of people in the world that speak more than one language perfectly, so maybe I’m not _surprised_, but I am humbled, given my own difficulties with foreign languages.


Don’t flatter me! I’m navelludd! (Was it navel lint?).


----------



## juice

Carl Kotte said:


> My art is so misunderstood


It would be fair to say you've improved on the inspiration - the student has become the master.









This Is The Hilarious Result Of An 18th-Century Guy’s Attempt To Stuff A Lion


This Is The Hilarious Result Of An 18th-Century Guy’s Attempt To Stuff A Lion




www.iflscience.com


----------



## Carl Kotte

juice said:


> It would be fair to say you've improved on the inspiration - the student has become the master.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Is The Hilarious Result Of An 18th-Century Guy’s Attempt To Stuff A Lion
> 
> 
> This Is The Hilarious Result Of An 18th-Century Guy’s Attempt To Stuff A Lion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.iflscience.com


Look at my crazy passport!!!!


----------



## ma_sha1

Carl Kotte said:


> My art is so misunderstood



Like most famous artists in history, remain under appreciated until their passing


----------



## Carl Kotte

ma_sha1 said:


> Like most famous artists in history, remain under appreciated until their passing


Maybe I should make sure to get that knife massage soon


----------



## ma_sha1

Carl Kotte said:


> Maybe I should make sure to get that knife massage soon



you mean this?


----------



## Carl Kotte

ma_sha1 said:


> you mean this?



Yes, only this time, sharpened to perfection.


----------



## RockyBasel

Carl Kotte said:


> As a non native I don’t really know the difference between forging and forgery.


----------



## Scooter

I also joined because I like the fact that people are using and caring for their knives and helping us noobies to learn how to do the same. I hope the forum can hold onto that.

Would it make sense to have a category for something that essentially means "knives as investments"? That way when such a post appears, it can be politely pointed to that section as already happens with other subjects here. Otherwise the post must be left alone, which mixes in yet another investment post, or removed, which is a lot more drastic.


----------



## ian

The problem is that there's a grey area between budget knives that are obviously for hard use and collector knives that are for sitting in boxes. You could argue that this grey area (if broadly interpreted) accounts for 90% of all knives in BST. 

Is there something wrong with just ignoring the collector type posts? You can always react to the post with a laugh emoji.


----------



## Scooter

ian said:


> The problem is that there's a grey area between budget knives that are obviously for hard use and collector knives that are for sitting in boxes. You could argue that this grey area (if broadly interpreted) accounts for 90% of all knives in BST.
> 
> Is there something wrong with just ignoring the collector type posts? You can always react to the post with a laugh emoji.



Quick detour: what is your avatar image (the arcs)?


----------



## Corradobrit1

ian said:


> You can always react to the post with a laugh emoji.


A cheeky GLWS works too


----------



## ian

Scooter said:


> Quick detour: what is your avatar image (the arcs)?



Top of the page here, for instance, although the image is really from this little paper.


----------



## LostHighway

We need a Robespierre, or maybe Marat.,emoji


----------



## Carl Kotte

ian said:


> Top of the page here, for instance, although the image is really from this little paper.


I thought we agreed you’d say you were an undertaker to avoid these situations. *tumbleweed tumbling*


----------



## Carl Kotte

Nice use of LaTeX though!


----------



## ian

Carl Kotte said:


> I thought we agreed you’d say you were an undertaker to avoid these situations. *tumbleweed tumbling*


----------



## Scooter

ian said:


> Top of the page here, for instance, although the image is really from this little paper.



Thanks. I'm trying to muddle through Lie groups so I can recognize some of the terminology of the paper but not the significance of Nielsen equivalence. I was going to guess it was something mathematical, though.


----------



## ian

Scooter said:


> Thanks. I'm trying to muddle through Lie groups so I can recognize some of the terminology of the paper but not the significance of Nielsen equivalence. I was going to guess it was something mathematical, though.



Cool, are you studying math somewhere?


----------



## Scooter

ian said:


> Cool, are you studying math somewhere?



Physics, but trying to understand some of the math.


----------



## daveb

Ian knows Maths.

Pretty sharp for a 13 yr old undertaker....


----------



## Gregmega

Carl Kotte said:


> I once drew a perfect a perfect beige Lion on a Misono - essentially claiming authorship of the knife - and only charged artist’s fee; fight me! ( @Gregmega Not bad, ey?!).View attachment 91682
> View attachment 91683


Poetry


----------



## bahamaroot

ian said:


> Top of the page here, for instance, although the image is really from this little paper.


My bad, I was looking for the dumb people section....


----------



## Kippington

ian said:


> Top of the page here, for instance, although the image is really from this little paper.


I'd say maths is another language, you seem to be quite fluent in it.


----------



## M1k3

Kippington said:


> I'd say maths is another language, you seem to be quite fluent in it.


Hope he's fluent in it. He teaches it


----------



## juice

M1k3 said:


> Hope he's fluent in it. He teaches it


Trust me, this less often the case than you might hope


----------



## M1k3

juice said:


> Trust me, this less often the case than you might hope


@ian is this true? I've been looking up to your book smarts (smahts?) and cake making skills.


----------



## ian

Idk... fluency is not really a problem. Just like almost everyone in France is fluent in French, almost everyone who does math for a living is fluent in math. What's more difficult is having the technical skill and breadth of knowledge to solve hard problems.


----------



## Twigg

Religion is the why
Science is the how
Math is the language of God

Ian is pretty cool


----------



## WildBoar

ian said:


> IWhat's more difficult is having the technical skill and breadth of knowledge to solve hard problems.


Shouldn't they be able to solve the easy and medium problems as well?


----------



## ian

Twigg said:


> Religion is the why
> Science is the how
> Math is the language of God
> 
> Ian is pretty cool



I guess y'all may think math is cool because it's different from what most people do on here, but I'm just sitting here feeling inferior to all the pro cooks.


----------



## parbaked

ian said:


> I'm just sitting here feeling inferior to all the pro cooks.



...who never made soy bean milk and youtiao for breakfast.


----------



## M1k3

ian said:


> I'm just sitting here feeling inferior to all the pro cooks.


Feeling is mutual.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Twigg said:


> Religion is the why
> Science is the how
> Math is the language of God
> 
> Ian is pretty cool


There is something in that.... except the ian thing


----------



## Midsummer

240 shig kasumi, used......


----------



## ian

Midsummer said:


> used



The kiss of death for Shigs.


----------



## Hassanbensober

Considering selling all mine and retiring early.


----------



## soigne_west

Tosa Matsunaga Aogami damascus Gyuto (chef knife), 240 mm


Tosa Matsunaga Gyuto, 240 mmThis Japanese chef's knife has a core of Japanese Aogami carbon steel with a damascus (multi-layer) protective layer on the outside. This double-sided sharpened knife is completely hand-forged by the masters from Tosa.




www.japaneseknives.eu





Grind some metal off this. Call it a Toyama and charge $300


----------



## AT5760

Seems like an ultra cool project knife!


----------



## M1k3

AT5760 said:


> Seems like an ultra cool project knife!


There's one for sale in BST.


----------



## AT5760

Yeah, I kinda figured that.


----------



## Barclid

soigne_west said:


> Tosa Matsunaga Aogami damascus Gyuto (chef knife), 240 mm
> 
> 
> Tosa Matsunaga Gyuto, 240 mmThis Japanese chef's knife has a core of Japanese Aogami carbon steel with a damascus (multi-layer) protective layer on the outside. This double-sided sharpened knife is completely hand-forged by the masters from Tosa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.japaneseknives.eu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grind some metal off this. Call it a Toyama and charge $300


Nice little profit. Probably doesn't even cut any better.


----------



## tchan001

Well there is a custom handle and labor cost. And when you add shipping there probably isn't really that much profit.


----------



## slickmamba

It actually gets cheaper








"HONMAMON" Gyuto (Chef's Knife) Aogami Steel, Damascus


★ One HONMAMON Star (link) Blade Material : Aogami Steel No.2 (Blue Steel/ High Carbon Steel), Hardness :around HRC61 +/- 1. Handle Material : Walnut wood Made in Japan! Handedness : Right and Left hand. Use : Cutting Vegetables, Meat, Fish. This item is handmade by a Japanese craftsman, with...




honmamon-japan.com





$120/130 shipped for 210/240mm.

Also on ebay









Aogami Damascus Chef's Knife, Double Bevel Gyuto 210mm(8.3inch), Japanese handle | eBay


Aogami Damascus Chef's Knife(Gyuto). Aogami No 2 Steel is a superlative steel for professional knives. Blade Material　　 Aogami steel no2 (Blue steel). We check the blade and attach the handle, then adjust balance.



www.ebay.com


----------



## Forty Ounce

slickmamba said:


> It actually gets cheaper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "HONMAMON" Gyuto (Chef's Knife) Aogami Steel, Damascus
> 
> 
> ★ One HONMAMON Star (link) Blade Material : Aogami Steel No.2 (Blue Steel/ High Carbon Steel), Hardness :around HRC61 +/- 1. Handle Material : Walnut wood Made in Japan! Handedness : Right and Left hand. Use : Cutting Vegetables, Meat, Fish. This item is handmade by a Japanese craftsman, with...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> honmamon-japan.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $120/130 shipped for 210/240mm.
> 
> Also on ebay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aogami Damascus Chef's Knife, Double Bevel Gyuto 210mm(8.3inch), Japanese handle | eBay
> 
> 
> Aogami Damascus Chef's Knife(Gyuto). Aogami No 2 Steel is a superlative steel for professional knives. Blade Material　　 Aogami steel no2 (Blue steel). We check the blade and attach the handle, then adjust balance.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


I believe you can get those knives for even cheaper through yahoo Japan. They've been known to go for as little as $20 before shipping.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Please form an orderly line.








bloodroot blades 215mm Blackwood Chestnut K-tip Gyuto | eBay


bloodroot blades 215mm Blackwood Chestnut K-tip Gyuto. Condition is "New". Shipped with USPS First Class.



www.ebay.com





Make it a matching set








bloodroot blade chef knife 10.5inch | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for bloodroot blade chef knife 10.5inch at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## choochoochop

Quick profit I guess. The comment from the person in the original thread is a bit dishonest in my opinion.






SOLD - Mazaki 240 KU White 2


JNS Version with beautiful ebony handle and spacer, lightly used and polished with finger stones. $275.00 Shipped UPS with insurance CONUS. Height is 53+ Length 245 Comes with nice tension saya.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









SOLD - Mazaki 180 White 2 Santoku KU


Fantastic knife but I'm not a Santoku/Bunka guy I guess. This is the knives and stones version with a beautiful ebony handle. Height is about 55mm I put an edge on it. $195.00 Shipped and Insured UPS.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









SOLD - Mazaki 210 KU Ebony Handle


I'm on a 270 kick so i'm kicking the 210. This is a very good knife and doesn't need any thinning like the 240's, excellent mid weight knife. Never sharpened in new condition. Height is 51mm Comes with a beautiful Saya. $265.00 Shipped UPS with Insurance CONUS.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Original





SOLD - Anyone Interested? USD460 For Three Mazaki Knives


Too many knives haven't been used in months, so now Mazaki KU W#2 180mm Santoku+ Mazaki KU W#2 210mm Gyuto(Saya included) + Mazaki KU W#2 240mm Gyuto(Saya included) on the block. Asking for USD460 total. Mazaki KU W#2 180mm Santoku Condition: Used 2 times of dinner, sharpened once time...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## TSF415

choochoochop said:


> Quick profit I guess. The comment from the person in the original thread is a bit dishonest in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Mazaki 240 KU White 2
> 
> 
> JNS Version with beautiful ebony handle and spacer, lightly used and polished with finger stones. $275.00 Shipped UPS with insurance CONUS. Height is 53+ Length 245 Comes with nice tension saya.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Mazaki 180 White 2 Santoku KU
> 
> 
> Fantastic knife but I'm not a Santoku/Bunka guy I guess. This is the knives and stones version with a beautiful ebony handle. Height is about 55mm I put an edge on it. $195.00 Shipped and Insured UPS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Mazaki 210 KU Ebony Handle
> 
> 
> I'm on a 270 kick so i'm kicking the 210. This is a very good knife and doesn't need any thinning like the 240's, excellent mid weight knife. Never sharpened in new condition. Height is 51mm Comes with a beautiful Saya. $265.00 Shipped UPS with Insurance CONUS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Original
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Anyone Interested? USD460 For Three Mazaki Knives
> 
> 
> Too many knives haven't been used in months, so now Mazaki KU W#2 180mm Santoku+ Mazaki KU W#2 210mm Gyuto(Saya included) + Mazaki KU W#2 240mm Gyuto(Saya included) on the block. Asking for USD460 total. Mazaki KU W#2 180mm Santoku Condition: Used 2 times of dinner, sharpened once time...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com








SOLD - Anyone interested? USD 900 For Three New Knives, Konosuke Fujiyama FM W#1 240mm Gyuto+ Konosuke YS 240mm Gyuto+ Masashi Kuroshu SLD 240mm Gyuto


Too many knives haven't been used in months, so now Konosuke Fujiyama FM W#1 240mm Gyuto+ Konosuke YS 240mm Gyuto+ Masashi Kuroshu SLD 240mm Gyuto on the block. All are in new condition. Asking for USD900 total. Konosuke Fujiyama FM W#1 240mm Gyuto Profile: Gyuto Steel Type: Carbon steel...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





I think he also got these gems, just wait to see the profit he makes on these ones.


----------



## Giovanny Torres

TSF415 said:


> SOLD - Anyone interested? USD 900 For Three New Knives, Konosuke Fujiyama FM W#1 240mm Gyuto+ Konosuke YS 240mm Gyuto+ Masashi Kuroshu SLD 240mm Gyuto
> 
> 
> Too many knives haven't been used in months, so now Konosuke Fujiyama FM W#1 240mm Gyuto+ Konosuke YS 240mm Gyuto+ Masashi Kuroshu SLD 240mm Gyuto on the block. All are in new condition. Asking for USD900 total. Konosuke Fujiyama FM W#1 240mm Gyuto Profile: Gyuto Steel Type: Carbon steel...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think he also got these gems, just wait to see the profit he makes on these ones.


Let's hope he doesn't get these and also tries to sell them





Free to a good home - three sayas


Hey folks, I've got three sayas that could use a good home. They are free, just want someone to pay actual shipping. Two are for 240mm gyutos, mid-weight or laser, and one is for a 200-205mm blade, also mid-weight or laser. If I remember correctly, the sugi ban wood 240 was from a 240 denka from...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## LostHighway

choochoochop said:


> Quick profit I guess. The comment from the person in the original thread is a bit dishonest in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Mazaki 240 KU White 2
> 
> 
> JNS Version with beautiful ebony handle and spacer, lightly used and polished with finger stones. $275.00 Shipped UPS with insurance CONUS. Height is 53+ Length 245 Comes with nice tension saya.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Mazaki 180 White 2 Santoku KU
> 
> 
> Fantastic knife but I'm not a Santoku/Bunka guy I guess. This is the knives and stones version with a beautiful ebony handle. Height is about 55mm I put an edge on it. $195.00 Shipped and Insured UPS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Mazaki 210 KU Ebony Handle
> 
> 
> I'm on a 270 kick so i'm kicking the 210. This is a very good knife and doesn't need any thinning like the 240's, excellent mid weight knife. Never sharpened in new condition. Height is 51mm Comes with a beautiful Saya. $265.00 Shipped UPS with Insurance CONUS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Original
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Anyone Interested? USD460 For Three Mazaki Knives
> 
> 
> Too many knives haven't been used in months, so now Mazaki KU W#2 180mm Santoku+ Mazaki KU W#2 210mm Gyuto(Saya included) + Mazaki KU W#2 240mm Gyuto(Saya included) on the block. Asking for USD460 total. Mazaki KU W#2 180mm Santoku Condition: Used 2 times of dinner, sharpened once time...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com



That you for pointing this out. Not to defend dubious behavior but there are a number of newer members here who may not yet fully understand the accepted etiquette.


----------



## Checkpure

choochoochop said:


> Quick profit I guess. The comment from the person in the original thread is a bit dishonest in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Mazaki 240 KU White 2
> 
> 
> JNS Version with beautiful ebony handle and spacer, lightly used and polished with finger stones. $275.00 Shipped UPS with insurance CONUS. Height is 53+ Length 245 Comes with nice tension saya.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Mazaki 180 White 2 Santoku KU
> 
> 
> Fantastic knife but I'm not a Santoku/Bunka guy I guess. This is the knives and stones version with a beautiful ebony handle. Height is about 55mm I put an edge on it. $195.00 Shipped and Insured UPS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Mazaki 210 KU Ebony Handle
> 
> 
> I'm on a 270 kick so i'm kicking the 210. This is a very good knife and doesn't need any thinning like the 240's, excellent mid weight knife. Never sharpened in new condition. Height is 51mm Comes with a beautiful Saya. $265.00 Shipped UPS with Insurance CONUS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Original
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SOLD - Anyone Interested? USD460 For Three Mazaki Knives
> 
> 
> Too many knives haven't been used in months, so now Mazaki KU W#2 180mm Santoku+ Mazaki KU W#2 210mm Gyuto(Saya included) + Mazaki KU W#2 240mm Gyuto(Saya included) on the block. Asking for USD460 total. Mazaki KU W#2 180mm Santoku Condition: Used 2 times of dinner, sharpened once time...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com


So it’s wrong for me to buy knives, test them out, and sell them if they don’t fit what I’m looking for? Come on now.


----------



## Checkpure

Giovanny Torres said:


> Let's hope he doesn't get these and also tries to sell them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Free to a good home - three sayas
> 
> 
> Hey folks, I've got three sayas that could use a good home. They are free, just want someone to pay actual shipping. Two are for 240mm gyutos, mid-weight or laser, and one is for a 200-205mm blade, also mid-weight or laser. If I remember correctly, the sugi ban wood 240 was from a 240 denka from...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com


Didn’t get any sayas no worries. Bought a Jiro and other stuff on here that I won’t be selling unless it’s unseated by another knife.


----------



## Ochazuke

Checkpure said:


> So it’s wrong for me to buy knives, test them out, and sell them if they don’t fit what I’m looking for? Come on now.


I think many on the forum feel like it's in bad taste for an enthusiast to be out to blatantly turn a profit. If you buy on the forum, many take it as a common courtesy to link the original BST post where you bought from for the sake of transparency. It's also the why people post the vendor when they buy from one. Many people care whether they're getting the factory grind vs what another user put on, so obfuscating that is also usually in poor taste.


----------



## Giovanny Torres

Checkpure said:


> So it’s wrong for me to buy knives, test them out, and sell them if they don’t fit what I’m looking for? Come on now.


Imo you look even worst trying to justify yourself saying you just tested the edges. You didn't need to buy 3 of the same knife to test the edge and then make a profit of $300. Also if you really "tested the edge" why are you selling as new?


----------



## Checkpure

Giovanny Torres said:


> Imo you look even worst trying to justify yourself saying you just tested the edges. You didn't need to buy 3 of the same knife to test the edge and then make a profit of $300. Also if you really "tested the edge" why are you selling as new?


I’m having dinner with family but I’ll do my best. The seller would not sell the knives separately. They needed to be bought as a package deal. 
I’m testing more than the edge out.


----------



## Giovanny Torres

Checkpure said:


> I’m having dinner with family but I’ll do my best. The seller would not sell the knives separately. They needed to be bought as a package deal.
> I’m testing more than the edge out.


And you couldn't sell for what you paid?
I think the person selling set the price low in good faith and not thinking that someone will just make a profit. That's what communities like this are for no? Disclaimer, I own a Mazaki and I'm not interested in any of them, I just think what you did is of poor taste.


----------



## Gregmega

> I’m testing more than the edge out.


Yeah testing out the patience of future buyers too 

(It’s a free market and do what you may, but the spectacle is always waiting)


----------



## Checkpure

Giovanny Torres said:


> And you couldn't sell for what you paid?
> I think the person selling set the price low in good faith and not thinking that someone will just make a profit. That's what communities like this are for no? Disclaimer, I own a Mazaki and I'm not interested in any of them, I just think what you did is of poor taste.


I could sell them for whatever I wanted to. I could put up my konosuke FMs on eBay etc but they are my favorite knives so I keep them. That and the Jiros. 
I’ve lost hundreds on other knives, I’m no where close to even breaking even in this new hobby. It’s also just a hobby, this isn’t anything but that, if you make an extra bucks on a knife it simply goes to buying more knives to try.


----------



## Giovanny Torres

Checkpure said:


> I could sell them for whatever I wanted to. I could put up my konosuke FMs on eBay etc but they are my favorite knives so I keep them. That and the Jiros.
> I’ve lost hundreds on other knives, I’m no where close to even breaking even in this new hobby. It’s also just a hobby, this isn’t anything but that, if you make an extra bucks on a knife it simply goes to buying more knives to try.


You certainly can do what you want with your knives. Just my opinion that joining a community of hobbyist is for sharing and helping each other not to use the others to fund your new found hobby.


----------



## toddnmd

Checkpure said:


> I could sell them for whatever I wanted to.



Yep, you sure can. 
And some of us aren’t going to like it. 
And people are going to point it out because a lot of us don’t want to encourage that behavior because it goes against the general spirit of helping each other explore and learn.


----------



## Checkpure

toddnmd said:


> Yep, you sure can.
> And some of us aren’t going to like it.
> And people are going to point it out because a lot of us don’t want to encourage that behavior because it goes against the general spirit of helping each other explore and learn.


I've been apart of a lot of communities like this. I sold every one of those knives for below MSRP. They were all deals for each buyer. I've been doing this for a long time in the golf, whiskey, etc world.


----------



## labor of love

Good times.


----------



## Ochazuke

Checkpure said:


> I've been apart of a lot of communities like this. I sold every one of those knives for below MSRP. They were all deals for each buyer. I've been doing this for a long time in the golf, whiskey, etc world.


I mean, you're also reselling (at least) twice used goods. Claiming that you're doing somebody a favor by selling it below MSRP is a bit disingenuous. I'm not a whiskey guy, but I doubt you drank any of the whiskey before you flipped it...
Also, just because it's common behavior doesn't mean that every community will accept it either.


----------



## Checkpure

Ochazuke said:


> I mean, you're also reselling (at least) twice used goods. Claiming that you're doing somebody a favor by selling it below MSRP is a bit disingenuous. I'm not a whiskey guy, but I doubt you drank any of the whiskey before you flipped it...
> Also, just because it's common behavior doesn't mean that every community will accept it either.


More common in the golf community. I didn't attempt to misrepresent anything in any of my listings. I would be more than happy to refund anyone that isn't happy with the transaction their money back. Funny thing is I haven't heard a single thing from the people who actually bought the knives, they all are just excited to receive them like I was. 

This isn't some flipping scam where I'm just trying to make a profit here, I'm hopelessly obsessed with knives like everyone else here and keep trying to find ones I like more. Like I said before, I lost a lot on some knives and I made a couple bucks on others, overall i'm way in the hole. 

Flipping is if I bought every good knife on this BST and turned right over to ebay/chefkniveswap/etc to sell them solely for a profit. Not the case. I have used every single knife I've bought, if I love them more than whats on my rack they stay and I sell the loser, otherwise I sell them. I'm blessed enough to have food in the fridge to test out on my knives as soon as I get them. 

I'm sure i'll have some other rare knives to sell soon, and I could sell them for over MSRP if I wanted else where, but I'll most likely sell them here at a fair price.


----------



## Ochazuke

Checkpure said:


> More common in the golf community. I didn't attempt to misrepresent anything in any of my listings. I would be more than happy to refund anyone that isn't happy with the transaction their money back. Funny thing is I haven't heard a single thing from the people who actually bought the knives, they all are just excited to receive them like I was.
> 
> This isn't some flipping scam where I'm just trying to make a profit here, I'm hopelessly obsessed with knives like everyone else here and keep trying to find ones I like more. Like I said before, I lost a lot on some knives and I made a couple bucks on others, overall i'm way in the hole.
> 
> Flipping is if I bought every good knife on this BST and turned right over to ebay/chefkniveswap/etc to sell them solely for a profit. Not the case. I have used every single knife I've bought, if I love them more than whats on my rack they stay and I sell the loser, otherwise I sell them. I'm blessed enough to have food in the fridge to test out on my knives as soon as I get them.
> 
> I'm sure i'll have some other rare knives to sell soon, and I could sell them for over MSRP if I wanted else where, but I'll most likely sell them here at a fair price.


Okay! Sorry about that misunderstanding! After you defined flipping for me I realized you were doing something else and not just buying something for a low price and selling it immediately for a higher price.

Sorry for misconstruing this. Now I know that’s it’s not flipping if you’re doing it to subsidize your hobby.


----------



## Checkpure

Ochazuke said:


> Okay! Sorry about that misunderstanding! After you defined flipping for me I realized you were doing something else and not just buying something for a low price and selling it immediately for a higher price.
> 
> Sorry for misconstruing this. Now I know that’s it’s not flipping if you’re doing it to subsidize your hobby.


Go check all of my for sale listings. I lost over a hundred bucks on my Hitora Kikuchiyos. I'm addicted to the knife game, golf, cigars, and whiskey and I'm not making a damn dime on any of them. I'm going to keep trying tons of knives because it so much fun to have a new knife in the mail (gives me something to look forward to during a kinda dark time) and then I prep my family a meal with it.


----------



## TSF415

I’m all for free market and you didn’t break any rules but we aren’t either by pointing out you’re flipping knives. It’s good for the community to know so they can also follow the free market and not sell you knives at huge discounts. That’s all.


----------



## Checkpure

TSF415 said:


> I’m all for free market and you didn’t break any rules but we aren’t either by pointing out you’re flipping knives. It’s good for the community to know so they can also follow the free market and not sell you knives at huge discounts. That’s all.


Dude come on. The point of this flipper thread it to grab people who buy from guys like Dalman etc just for the sole intent to sell and make money. They don't even consider using or keeping the knife for a moment. I'm not doing that, I use them all and I'm HOPING to keep them and sell something else. Be fair man.


----------



## drsmp

Checkpure - Alden sold 3 knives at a ridiculously great price. You are making close to $250 from Aldens act of generosity. You weren’t at all honest in your description or source of the knives. Knife karma can be a *****. You are alienating many KKF members with your actions and defense of your behavior.


----------



## Checkpure

drsmp said:


> Checkpure - Alden sold 3 knives at a ridiculously great price. You are making close to $250 from Aldens act of generosity. You weren’t at all honest in your description or source of the knives. Knife karma can be a *****. You are alienating many KKF members with your actions and defense of your behavior.


Not once did I lie about a thing. Sorry brotha but I didn't do anyone wrong, I'm not making a business out of flipping knives and I didn't sell a single knife here even at MSRP. You're being self righteous IMO. I'm not going to try and convince a bunch of people on an internet knife forum that I'm really into knives. You want me to own up to doing something wrong here when I didn't. Once again I have noooo problem keeping these knives but I don't find the people who actually bought them are interested in that. 

You're just out for blood and all I got is love. Have a good one.


----------



## BillHanna

If it’s really like that, I thought the offer of 200 for the 210 was kinda bullsh!t considering what you paid for it. But I was content to move on.


----------



## BillHanna

Also, I got the idea you planned on flipping them immediately, not testing them to see if you wanted them yourself.


----------



## ian

The Mazakis were not pure enough! He just bought them to check.

Edit: But yea, bad form. Doesn’t matter that you lost money on other knives; we’re all in the red here and that’s a given. What matters is that Alden did a nice favor for the community that you capitalized on. Not illegal of course, but it won’t earn you many friends here.


----------



## Checkpure

BillHanna said:


> Also, I got the idea you planned on flipping them immediately, not testing them to see if you wanted them yourself.


I wanted one of the knives really but I know he won't sell a single knife which was why we were trying to pool our money together to buy them. I also figured the santoku would not sell as I've had a tough time moving that profile. I tried them all with carrots, celery, and a russet potato. If any of them stood out I was going to keep them. You bailed on taking the 210.


----------



## Checkpure

BillHanna said:


> If it’s really like that, I thought the offer of 200 for the 210 was kinda bullsh!t considering what you paid for it. But I was content to move on.


Also I only ship UPS insured, cost me minimum 25 bucks often closer to 40. Do the math on that.


----------



## WiriWiri

Checkpure said:


> Not once did I lie about a thing. Sorry brotha but I didn't do anyone wrong,...
> 
> ...You're just out for blood and all I got is love. Have a good one.




Ah, the kind of love that seeks to turn a profit. You love us all long time, right?

TBH, I was going to stay well off this one - I really don’t care too much about someone making a little bit of profit on a knife - but that self serving puddle of justification was so ridiculous that it pushed my lazy arse off the fence.

MSRP shouldn‘t have anything to do with it. You‘re doing nobody any favours, yourself included, given that you bought all 3 knives for song from a member here. Meh, that’s about as animated as I can get. Fury over

Love from here too, but in a Roger Moore style raised eyebrow and one-off type way quite probably


----------



## jwthaparc

Checkpure said:


> Go check all of my for sale listings. I lost over a hundred bucks on my Hitora Kikuchiyos. I'm addicted to the knife game, golf, cigars, and whiskey and I'm not making a damn dime on any of them. I'm going to keep trying tons of knives because it so much fun to have a new knife in the mail (gives me something to look forward to during a kinda dark time) and then I prep my family a meal with it.


I was addicted to whiskey too, that's why I go to AA now.


----------



## AT5760

There’s no point in trying to justify it. You bought knives at a great price. You sold them at a profit. It doesn’t violate any express rules of the forum. Many people won’t like that and feel it violates the spirit of the community.

You could sell that santoku for $15, make the other sales a wash and show all the complainers .


----------



## Checkpure

WiriWiri said:


> Ah, the kind of love that seeks to turn a profit. You love us all long time, right?
> 
> TBH, I was going to stay well off this one - I really don’t care too much about someone making a little bit of profit on a knife - but that self serving puddle of justification was so ridiculous that it pushed my lazy arse off the fence.
> 
> MSRP shouldn‘t have anything to do with it. You‘re doing nobody any favours, yourself included, given that you bought all 3 knives for song from a member here. Meh, that’s about as animated as I can get. Fury over
> 
> Love from here too, but in a Roger Moore style raised eyebrow and one-off type way quite probably


The point of the MSRP reference was if I was purely in this for the profit I would have charged at or above MSRP for knives that are sold out.


----------



## ian

I think you’re missing the point a bit. People don’t care that you bought to test them out on a potato or whatever. Your motivation doesn’t matter, it’s just the sale prices that do, and msrp is irrelevant. The point is that it’s common practice here to sell for less than or equal to what you paid. If you bought as a package deal and wanted to recoup some part of the shipping costs you accrued after sending them to three different people, that’d be fine, but that doesn’t seem to be what happened here.

But whatever. I’m mostly commenting because my wife is trying to get us to buy a house and I’m trying to look busy so I don’t have to engage and fall down yet another stress rabbit hole.


----------



## Checkpure

AT5760 said:


> There’s no point in trying to justify it. You bought knives at a great price. You sold them at a profit. It doesn’t violate any express rules of the forum. Many people won’t like that and feel it violates the spirit of the community.
> 
> You could sell that santoku for $15, make the other sales a wash and show all the complainers .


All sold and all happy.


----------



## tostadas

USPS priority for a 2lb package insured from west coast to farthest location east coast costs about $15. Insurance on $250 is about $5.


----------



## ian

tostadas said:


> USPS priority for a 2lb package insured from west coast to farthest location east coast costs about $15. Insurance on $250 is about $5.



Think he was talking about the total for shipping 3 knives to separate locations


----------



## Checkpure

ian said:


> I think you’re missing the point a bit. People don’t care that you bought to test them out on a potato or whatever. Your motivation doesn’t matter, it’s just the sale prices that do, and msrp is irrelevant. The point is that it’s common practice here to sell for less than or equal to what you paid. If you bought as a package deal and wanted to recoup some part of the shipping costs you accrued after sending them to three different people, that’d be fine, but that doesn’t seem to be what happened here.
> 
> But whatever. I’m mostly commenting because my wife is trying to get us to buy a house and I’m trying to look busy so I don’t have to engage and fall down yet another stress rabbit hole.


Dude I get it. Other knives I have sold well below what I paid. Its all going to balance out was my point, this was the RARE opportunity where I made a buck. Balance that against my other knife sales and i'm still down. I'll be even more mindful in the future but chances are i'll lose on some and win on some. BTW can someone please sell me their Shig's and Katos for what they paid for them six+ years ago!? Pretty please


----------



## Checkpure

tostadas said:


> USPS priority for a 2lb package insured from west coast to farthest location east coast costs about $15. Insurance on $250 is about $5.


I won't ship USPS right now. I still don't have two packages send to me via USPS after nearly a month.


----------



## jwthaparc

Let's just stop. This is going in circles, we can all see that right?


----------



## Checkpure

ian said:


> Think he was talking about the total for shipping 3 knives to separate locations


I'm spending 25-40 knife per location. I sold all three to different locations.


----------



## drsmp

Big difference between 6 days and 6 years. Time to stop digging and do a little reflection


----------



## ian

jwthaparc said:


> Let's just stop. This is going in circles, we can all see that right?



What is a circle, but a metaphor for the complex beauty of infinity? With every mouthful of its tail, the snake edges ever closer to transcendence.


----------



## Checkpure

drsmp said:


> Big difference between 6 days and 6 years. Time to stop digging and do a little reflection


You sound like a bible thumper and thats fine by me. God bless you sir.


----------



## WiriWiri

ian said:


> What is a circle, but a metaphor for the complex beauty of infinity? With every mouthful of its tail, the snake edges ever closer to transcendence.



Circles are wet. Hula hoops, tambourines, bangles, pah.

Triangles are where it’s at. Pointy beats round


----------



## ian

WiriWiri said:


> Triangles are where it’s at. Pointy beats round



As someone who studies triangles for a living, I approve this message.


----------



## BillHanna

rectangles beat triangles


----------



## Checkpure

BillHanna said:


> rectangles beat triangles





https://buffaloarchitecture.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/AEPresentation-ArchitecturalElements.pdf



Triangles man!


----------



## BillHanna

Rectangles have better edge retention


----------



## GorillaGrunt

ill rochambeau you for my triangle


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

I use nakiris to flip omelettes and quesadillas sometimes


----------



## WiriWiri

BillHanna said:


> rectangles beat triangles



Only in a little fish, big fish, cardboard box kind of way. I’m in full Glastonbury mode now, steering rapidly past the hippies with their ’infinity circle‘ waffle, off toward that glorious triangular pyramid*

Can you tell that it’s late here (UK) now and that I clearly need bed.

*This is a lie, I’d blatantly be at the SE corner instead.


----------



## Checkpure

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> I use nakiris to flip omelettes and quesadillas sometimes


The real flipper MVP over here.


----------



## BillHanna

To veer even further; does a takobiki count as a rectangle a la nakiri/cleaver?

I should get one to stay on theme, instead of a suji.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

BillHanna said:


> To veer even further; does a takobiki count as a rectangle a la nakiri/cleaver?
> 
> I should get one to stay on theme, instead of a suji.



Nah that's an exception - sakimaru sujihiki all the way.


----------



## M1k3




----------



## BillHanna

Horse carriage horse?


----------



## juice

jwthaparc said:


> Let's just stop. This is going in circles, we can all see that right?


I think we all know that some people LIKE going in circles.


----------



## M1k3

juice said:


> I think we all know that some people LIKE going in circles.


Line Cooks?


----------



## juice

M1k3 said:


> Line Cooks?


I was deliberately non-specific, brother ;-)


----------



## daveb

Going into the triangle gets you lost forever.


----------



## BillHanna

That’s why you’re better off with a rectangle.


----------



## juice

Yeah, the Bermuda Rectangle is a lot safer.


----------



## alterwisser




----------



## Mikeadunne

I give the last 3 pages of this thready 8/10 amusing . keep up the good work ya'll


----------



## M1k3

Mikeadunne said:


> I give the last 3 pages of this thready 8/10 amusing . keep up the good work ya'll


So... are you for or against the currently accused?


----------



## Mikeadunne

M1k3 said:


> So... are you for or against the currently accused?


haha I'm just here for the show....()


----------



## M1k3

Mikeadunne said:


> haha I'm just here for the show....()


It's simple. Triangle or rectangle (which is a square by the way, but the bermuda one is much safer than the triangle one)?


----------



## juice

M1k3 said:


> So... are you for or against the currently accused?


Neutral, but I am LOL at how hard the non-Ian members of the prosecutorial team is doing the "me so virtuous" thing, so I'm happy from that POV.


----------



## alterwisser

I’m lovin it!

On a more serious note:

i love to have the freedom to call out flippers and to be able to flip. Neither one should be restricted here by forum rules.

I am a strong believer in property rights and the owner of a knife should be allowed to charge $1 or $1000 for a knife he paid $500 for. What others do with that information is their own right.

i personally would never buy a knife with the sole purpose of selling it (quickly), but if I sell a knife that I bought years ago from a then little known maker who has risen to fame in these circles and charges a multiple of those prices back when I bought it, I would price it accordingly...

No one would sell a Rolex, a house or a vintage car for what they paid for it if the market has gone up significantly in the mean time. Knives shouldn’t be any different.


----------



## mise_en_place

alterwisser said:


> No one would sell a Rolex, a house or a vintage car for what they paid for it if the market has gone up significantly in the mean time. Knives shouldn’t be any different.



The main difference is the community aspect here. But I agree, it would be unwise to sell a Shigefusa you bought for $500 in 2015 for $500 today (unless the condition was absolute sh*t). 

Excellent recent developments in this thread, though!


----------



## Xenif

I think its time for me to put some sense back into this conversation ... *Clears throat*

-=channels inner Kelly Clarkson=-

Here's the thing
We started out friends
It was cool, but it was all pretend
Yeah, yeah
Flippers be gone

You're irritated, you set the hook and line
Wasn't long 'til we called you out
Yeah, yeah
Flippers be gone
And all you'd ever hear us say
Is how this is poor taste
That's all you'd ever hear us say
Flippers been gone
See the real-you for the first time
We're so moving on, yeah, yeah
Thanks to you
Now we get what we want
Flippers be gone

How can I put it? You piss me off
Flip knives that you bought for a song
Yeah, yeah
Flippers be gone
How come I'd never hear you say
Sorry I took advantage of you?
Guess you never felt that way
Flippers be gone
Not like you bought for the first time
We're so moving on, yeah, yeah
Thanks to you
Now we get what we want
You to be gone

You had your chance, you blew it
Out for a fight, out of line
Shut your mouth, I just can't take it
Excuse Again, and again, and again, and again

Flippers be gone (want you to be gone)
We help noobs buy for the first time 
I'm so moving on, yeah, yeah
Thanks to you (Thanks to you)
Now we get, we get what we want
Not profit off those who buy for the the first time
I'm so moving on, yeah, yeah
Thanks to you (Thanks to you)
Now we get (we get)
You should know (You should know)
That we get
We get what we want
Flipper be gone
Flippers be gone
A$$holes be gone

*Drops mic, flips bird*


----------



## Dendrobatez

alterwisser said:


> I am a strong believer in property rights and the owner of a knife should be allowed to charge $1 or $1000 for a knife he paid $500 for. What others do with that information is their own right.



This is my general sentiment, charge whatever you want for your property. If someone wants to pay that price then great if not then you're priced out of the market. Time seems to be the determining factor on whether or not you're called a flipper. 
I don't ever try to make a profit off of my knives but I'll keep them priced to the market - if that's more than I paid a few years ago then great it offsets the many losses I take on other knives.


----------



## alterwisser

Dendrobatez said:


> This is my general sentiment, charge whatever you want for your property. If someone wants to pay that price then great if not then you're priced out of the market. Time seems to be the determining factor on whether or not you're called a flipper.
> I don't ever try to make a profit off of my knives but I'll keep them priced to the market - if that's more than I paid a few years ago then great it offsets the many losses I take on other knives.



Yep!

if I’d sell all my knives now I think I could come at pretty much even = what I paid for them. That means I’d sell some for more, some for less than what I paid for.

I make exceptions though: long time “knife friends” are getting very good deals. In the past I have offered knives at a “bargain” price to them under the condition that if they’d sell them at a profit we’d split said profit.

But: I keep all my knives for years. That’s the main reason they might be higher priced in today’s market.


----------



## tcmx3

I just think it's real curious that it's not enough to simply be allowed to do something for some folks, but instead you must never ever even identify their behavior (much less criticize it). 

The guy went on and on and on about how it wasnt "really" flipping, how what he was doing was justified by circumstance, trying to define away his behavior as _not that thing you dont like by technicality_, too. Reminds me of some other conversations.

In this case, I mean flipping is whatever. It's not the sort of behavior I myself would necessarily engage in, but that's immaterial. It's really not arguable that the guy flipped the knives though. Furthermore, this is the flipper alert thread, so it's appropriate to point it out. If the guy is so sensitive about it, he shouldn't have done it; that's my take. It betrays that he is likely aware, on some level, that what he did wasn't fully kosher.


----------



## Jville

Xenif said:


> I think its time for me to put some sense back into this conversation ... *Clears throat*
> 
> -=channels inner Kelly Clarkson=-
> 
> Here's the thing
> We started out friends
> It was cool, but it was all pretend
> Yeah, yeah
> Flippers be gone
> 
> You're irritated, you set the hook and line
> Wasn't long 'til we called you out
> Yeah, yeah
> Flippers be gone
> And all you'd ever hear us say
> Is how this is poor taste
> That's all you'd ever hear us say
> Flippers been gone
> See the real-you for the first time
> We're so moving on, yeah, yeah
> Thanks to you
> Now we get what we want
> Flippers be gone
> 
> How can I put it? You piss me off
> Flip knives that you bought for a song
> Yeah, yeah
> Flippers be gone
> How come I'd never hear you say
> Sorry I took advantage of you?
> Guess you never felt that way
> Flippers be gone
> Not like you bought for the first time
> We're so moving on, yeah, yeah
> Thanks to you
> Now we get what we want
> You to be gone
> 
> You had your chance, you blew it
> Out for a fight, out of line
> Shut your mouth, I just can't take it
> Excuse Again, and again, and again, and again
> 
> Flippers be gone (want you to be gone)
> We help noobs buy for the first time
> I'm so moving on, yeah, yeah
> Thanks to you (Thanks to you)
> Now we get, we get what we want
> Not profit off those who buy for the the first time
> I'm so moving on, yeah, yeah
> Thanks to you (Thanks to you)
> Now we get (we get)
> You should know (You should know)
> That we get
> We get what we want
> Flipper be gone
> Flippers be gone
> A$$holes be gone
> 
> *Drops mic, flips bird*


Sounds like a hit man!


----------



## FishmanDE

Topic is dead, but I'd like my two cents thrown in since I have a great deal of experience with him and I missed the pop yesterday. He exemplifies, in my experience, more of a community spirit than most of the people on here trying to crucify him (happy easter!). He's done nothing but look out for knives for me since we had a conversation a few weeks ago where he offered me a knife and I declined. Since then he's gone out of his way to converse about my needs and wants and has been keeping an eye on BST for the knives I'm looking for, tagging me in no less than 3 threads so I wouldn't miss them. He offered me first dibs on the 240 KU as well, knowing I was in the market for one, which I passed on because I didn't like the profile. I think its frankly absurd to try to define someone who flipped as a Flipper. One time doesn't deserve a label. There are plenty of people on here who try to sell for more than what a knife is worth. Please, absolutely call out flippers, but don't try to label someone as such for selling knives for more than what they paid. That said, I didnt personally agree with the prices he sold them for, but people still paid them and are happy with the purchases. It's none of my business, but bullying someone because you dont agree with them is. Grow up.


----------



## alterwisser

FishmanDE said:


> but people still paid them and are happy with the purchases



I know where you’re coming from, but if this is the key point we don’t need to have a discussion about flipping at all, because if someone is willing to pay the price, flipping is not a Problem. And if no one is, it’s not a problem either ...


----------



## FishmanDE

alterwisser said:


> I know where you’re coming from, but if this is the key point we don’t need to have a discussion about flipping at all, because if someone is willing to pay the price, flipping is not a Problem. And if no one is, it’s not a problem either ...



I think the key point is that someone buys low with the intention to sell high to make a profit. Just because someone got a deal doesn’t make them a flipper. There needs to be a pattern before making a bunch of accusations that could affect someone’s reputation. To say or insinuate that no one is allowed to come up is ridiculous, and to try to label them a flipper is absurd.


----------



## FishmanDE

Losing money shouldn’t be a prerequisite for taking part in a hobby, thought it is a usual symptom. Some times you make a few bucks, most time you lose a few.


----------



## Dhoff

Interesting to hear so many points of view.

I wonder. If someone was to place a knife for sale, like a shig, for 100 bucks, and you bought it as it would be an amazing opportunity to try one, how many would pass it on for 100 bucks if it didnt suit them?


----------



## alterwisser

FishmanDE said:


> Losing money shouldn’t be a prerequisite for taking part in a hobby, thought it is a usual symptom. Some times you make a few bucks, most time you lose a few.



I don’t think anyone has said that. And I’m not against flipping at all, mind you. I think the market makes the price. But I also believe it’s the right of the community to shun someone they deem a flipper.


----------



## alterwisser

Dhoff said:


> Interesting to hear so many points of view.
> 
> I wonder. If someone was to place a knife for sale, like a shig, for 100 bucks, and you bought it as it would be an amazing opportunity to try one, how many would pass it on for 100 bucks if it didnt suit them?



i would not.

Unrealistic scenario though.

Would you give away a car or a watch that you inherited just because you got it for free?


----------



## FishmanDE

alterwisser said:


> I don’t think anyone has said that. And I’m not against flipping at all, mind you. I think the market makes the price. But I also believe it’s the right of the community to shun someone they deem a flipper.



Absolutely they have that right, but there’s a difference between shunning and giving someone a bad reputation


----------



## FishmanDE

alterwisser said:


> i would not.
> 
> Unrealistic scenario though.
> 
> Would you give away a car or a watch that you inherited just because you got it for free?



That’s literally what everyone was saying he should’ve done


----------



## tcmx3

FishmanDE said:


> It's none of my business, but bullying someone because you dont agree with them is. Grow up.



getting your behavior labeled is not bullying.

dude aint a victim here. he may not be a villain, but he DEFINITELY isn't a victim.


----------



## Barmoley

FishmanDE said:


> I think the key point is that someone buys low with the intention to sell high to make a profit. Just because someone got a deal doesn’t make them a flipper. There needs to be a pattern before making a bunch of accusations that could affect someone’s reputation. To say or insinuate that no one is allowed to come up is ridiculous, and to try to label them a flipper is absurd.


You are saying that intention matters, but this thread is meant to call out behavior as a counter balance for flipping not being against the BST rules. Agree or not but this is the mechanism in place. A flip is a flip regardless of intent or moral fiber of the flipper. I think flipping is natural for all the above mentioned reasons and I would rather people flipped here instead of what happens now and knives are being sold on other platforms and disappear from the community. I can also understand that many dislike flipping and flippers though. As for an imaginary $100 shig sold for market price a week later, would still be a flip and deserves being called out on this thread.


----------



## Dhoff

For me, I do not have enough information at present to form an informed opinion.

Knives were bought at a great price (We all know this)

Intend for purchase was to: Make a profit and/or try the knives.

We cannot know the intend. However, if the person has a nice track record, I'd personally give the person the benefit of the doubt.

My hypothetical scenario was extreme, I admit. The point was, if someone sells "Too cheap", I think many would not hesitate to sell at the "market" price or slightly below.

To me, reputation matters. I'd hate to be crucified for a one time occurrence (that I personally do not condemn based on the "evidence" as I do not know his reputation otherwise) if my actions were otherwise great.


----------



## FishmanDE

tcmx3 said:


> getting your behavior labeled is not bullying.
> 
> dude aint a victim here. he may not be a villain, but he DEFINITELY isn't a victim.



There’s a difference between getting behaviors labeled and going on a 3 page argument/ bashing spree while making baseless assertions on everything from the originals seller’s intention to the “flipper’s” intentions.


----------



## FishmanDE

And to be crystal clear again, my problem is with the bashing, labeling of the individual and horse beating. Not the labels of the transactions in question.


----------



## Checkpure

I stated how I felt, I’m an adult and available to talk to anyone who would like to discuss this matter or others (after Easter dinner). Maybe someone can help me recoup the 275 I lost on my tojiro, or the 225 on my shun, or the 100 on my kikuchiyo gyuto, or the 110 on my nakiri. You get one good deal and don’t lose money and a small group (of mostly people who tried to buy the package also) and they throw a fit. Like I said before I’ve been apart of a lot of other communities and have carried myself well. 
I’m in the room though folks, you can message me like a big boy or girl if you’d like to discuss this more.


----------



## alterwisser

FishmanDE said:


> That’s literally what everyone was saying he should’ve done



I don’t think so. What they’re saying is that he profited from the generosity of another member only to turn around and immediately resell the knives at a profit.

and again: I don’t care


----------



## Checkpure

If my sole intent was to make money I would have charged more here or elsewhere. Happy Easter everyone!


----------



## captaincaed

M1k3 said:


> It's simple. Triangle or rectangle (which is a square by the way, but the bermuda one is much safer than the triangle one)?


----------



## tcmx3

FishmanDE said:


> There’s a difference between getting behaviors labeled and going on a 3 page argument/ bashing spree while making baseless assertions on everything from the originals seller’s intention to the “flipper’s” intentions.



actually it's pretty awesome to see people discuss what consequences should be considered for someone's marginal behavior.



Checkpure said:


> I stated how I felt, I’m an adult and available to talk to anyone who would like to discuss this matter or others (after Easter dinner). Maybe someone can help me recoup the 275 I lost on my tojiro, or the 225 on my shun, or the 100 on my kikuchiyo gyuto, or the 110 on my nakiri. You get one good deal and don’t lose money and a small group (of mostly people who tried to buy the package also) and they throw a fit. Like I said before I’ve been apart of a lot of other communities and have carried myself well.
> I’m in the room though folks, you can message me like a big boy or girl if you’d like to discuss this more.



oh yes Im sure the best way to endear people to yourself is to be a passive aggressive crybaby about the whole thing.


----------



## BillHanna

This seems to be a case of facts v feelings. Hopefully, this can peter out.


----------



## mauichef

Wow.. The guy sold some knives, he didn't murder anyone. Some people really need to chill in this hobby. And @tcmx3...he absolutely IS the victim here and I have rarely seen worse bullying...even on this forum!
Personal property is just that..PERSONAL. Like it..... buy it. Don't..... move on! Who or what got hurt other than some misplaced feelings. Wow!


----------



## tcmx3

mauichef said:


> Wow.. The guy sold some knives, he didn't murder anyone. Some people really need to chill in this hobby. And @tcmx3...he absolutely IS the victim here and *I have rarely seen worse bullying*...even on this forum!
> Personal property is just that..PERSONAL. Like it..... buy it. Don't..... move on! Who or what got hurt other than some misplaced feelings. Wow!



l m a o


----------



## Checkpure

tcmx3 said:


> actually it's pretty awesome to see people discuss what consequences should be considered for someone's marginal behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> oh yes Im sure the best way to endear people to yourself is to be a passive aggressive crybaby about the whole thing.


Brother I’m not being passive aggressive. If you were the guy who posted in my sales thread that qualifies as passive aggressive. I said I’m available to speak to anyone who would like to about this. 
This was revived because another solid member stood up for me. Thanks btw!

You could message me and talk to me man to man or on the phone if you’d like. I don’t think you’d be carrying yourself this way if we had a chat over a drink. I’d pick up the first round.


----------



## BillHanna

Remember Dominique Dawes. Quite the flipper.


----------



## mauichef

tcmx3 said:


> actually it's pretty awesome to see people discuss what consequences should be considered for someone's marginal behavior.



Lynching mob or pedantic childish behavior? Hmmmm....


----------



## BillHanna

How about that Michael Phelps. Feet like flippers.


----------



## Checkpure

BillHanna said:


> This seems to be a case of facts v feelings. Hopefully, this can peter out.


Funny enough my name is Peter. Fact was I figured I wouldn’t be able to sell the Santoku (seems to not be a popular profile, and I lost 200+ on the last one I tried to sell). I bought the three pack partly because you were in on the 210 (which you backed out of as noted). Fact I was lucky to sell all three. You say now it’s the price but you said to me in a message it was cause you got another knife. 
Come on everyone let’s get to chopping veggies for the family dinner.


----------



## tcmx3

whew! checkpure has now completed DARVO bingo!


----------



## BillHanna

Are they pancakes or flapjacks? What’s your preferred method to get them to the other side?


----------



## Whetted_edge

Checkpure said:


> More common in the golf community. I didn't attempt to misrepresent anything in any of my listings. I would be more than happy to refund anyone that isn't happy with the transaction their money back. Funny thing is I haven't heard a single thing from the people who actually bought the knives, they all are just excited to receive them like I was.
> 
> This isn't some flipping scam where I'm just trying to make a profit here, I'm hopelessly obsessed with knives like everyone else here and keep trying to find ones I like more. Like I said before, I lost a lot on some knives and I made a couple bucks on others, overall i'm way in the hole.
> 
> Flipping is if I bought every good knife on this BST and turned right over to ebay/chefkniveswap/etc to sell them solely for a profit. Not the case. I have used every single knife I've bought, if I love them more than whats on my rack they stay and I sell the loser, otherwise I sell them. I'm blessed enough to have food in the fridge to test out on my knives as soon as I get them.
> 
> I'm sure i'll have some other rare knives to sell soon, and I could sell them for over MSRP if I wanted else where, but I'll most likely sell them here at a fair price.


If they guy that bought the santoku wants refund il take it


----------



## BillHanna

Nah man. They’re hard to sell. It took me actual hours to sell an identical blade.


----------



## Whetted_edge

BillHanna said:


> Nah man. They’re hard to sell. It took me actual hours to sell an identical blade.


Not sure if that was a reply for me I won't sell it personally trying to get as many mazaki as I can


----------



## BillHanna

Friendly fire, if you will. I’m using you as a bit of a meat shield against the idea it’s hard to sell.


----------



## BillHanna

I’m fascinated by the omelet rolls I see in crappy high school romcom anime. They way they flip them feels beyond me.


----------



## Whetted_edge

Ah touché , I don't own many santoku just ones to complete sets . Otherwise I wouldent mind if they were never made again. One less knife I have to. Buy for sets


----------



## Dhoff

BillHanna said:


> I’m fascinated by the omelet rolls I see in crappy high school romcom anime. They way they flip them feels beyond me.



Not that hard to make actually, I tried the last couple of weeks, and I'm close xD


----------



## BillHanna

I hear dolphins are the jerks of the sea. That show was just propoganda to throw you off their trail. A mammal? Living in water? Seems....... FISHY.....to me.


----------



## Carl Kotte

BillHanna said:


> This seems to be a case of facts v feelings. Hopefully, this can peter out.


Am I still an egg?


----------



## BillHanna

@Carl Kotte , you’re The Goodest Egg. There should be children’s books about you to lead our children into a future of love and understanding.


----------



## Carl Kotte

BillHanna said:


> @Carl Kotte , you’re The Goodest Egg. There should be children’s books about you to lead our children into a future of love and understanding.


No No No, I’m a father of two and I feel sorry for them. No children’s books.


----------



## BillHanna

When you FLIP a page, each one is beiger than the one before.


----------



## inferno

mise_en_place said:


> The main difference is the community aspect here. But I agree, it would be unwise to sell a Shigefusa you bought for $500 in 2015 for $500 today (unless the condition was absolute sh*t).
> 
> Excellent recent developments in this thread, though!



actually i think this is a very good idea. also another very good idea is to *contact me before it goes on bst. *

----------

back on topic. i have a few knives that i have modified a lot, very elaborate handles. thinned out. reprofiled. refinished. good kasumi etc.
these are very personalized knives that i dont really want to sell. but if i had to i would charge MORE, yes much more than msrp. because i have added value to them!

and i feel that is ok. no one is forced to buy them.


----------



## BillHanna

inferno said:


> actually i think this is a very good idea. also another very good idea is to *contact me before it goes on bst. *
> 
> ----------
> 
> back on topic. i have a few knives that i have modified a lot, very elaborate handles. thinned out. reprofiled. refinished. good kasumi etc.
> these are very personalized knives that i dont really want to sell. but if i had to i would charge MORE, yes much more than msrp. because i have added value to them!
> 
> and i feel that is ok. no one is forced to buy them.


I’m with you on that. When a house gets flipped it’s better than purchased. That’s desirable.


----------



## BillHanna

Flip Saunders was beloved in the NBA community.


----------



## BillHanna

Flip flops are terrible. Put on proper sandals.


----------



## Carl Kotte

BillHanna said:


> Flip flops are terrible. Put on proper sandals.


Unless you’re wearing them with socks. Then we’re bueno.


----------



## BillHanna

Only you. Everyone one else is verboten.


----------



## alterwisser

What is a Mazaki?


----------



## Bigbbaillie

I don't feel like selling a knife for more than you bought it for is necessarily wrong, happens all the time, way worse with Shig's and Kato's anyway.
The thing I find issue with is just how fast this guy did it, he couldn't have had these knives 2 or 3 days before they were up on BST. Like if you are in this hobby for the knives why not try to enjoy them. I don't care who you are, you don't automatically understand the quality of a knife after cutting a couple pounds of mirepoix and a few potatoes. Mazakis are great knives, it's a shame he just discounted them after that little use. (That is if he didn't just buy them to flip)


----------



## Checkpure

Bigbbaillie said:


> I don't feel like selling a knife for more than you bought it for is necessarily wrong, happens all the time, way worse with Shig's and Kato's anyway.
> The thing I find issue with is just how fast this guy did it, he couldn't have had these knives 2 or 3 days before they were up on BST. Like if you are in this hobby for the knives why not try to enjoy them. I don't care who you are, you don't automatically understand the quality of a knife after cutting a couple pounds of mirepoix and a few potatoes. Mazakis are great knives, it's a shame he just discounted them after that little use. (That is if he didn't just buy them to flip)


This guy is right here. You read the thread you can address me directly. Doesn’t take much for me to love or leave a knife. Same way with women.


----------



## inferno

alterwisser said:


> What is a Mazaki?



its a purple scaly reptile animal!


----------



## Carl Kotte

alterwisser said:


> What is a Mazaki?


The answer to all questions.


----------



## BillHanna

I was working so hard to FLIP the page on all of this. Now y'all are gonna have to get notified of more of my bulls#!t


----------



## Carl Kotte

I think a lot of the current convo could be had at my big thread on insults.


----------



## BillHanna

Flip


----------



## Carl Kotte

BillHanna said:


> Flip


You’re so fast!


----------



## BillHanna

Flip


----------



## BillHanna

Flip


----------



## BillHanna

Flip


----------



## BillHanna

my cousin


----------



## Bigbbaillie

At what point does it officially become too late to take a nap?


----------



## BillHanna

When the day FLIPS to the next one.


----------



## alterwisser

Flip Flop Hooray


----------



## Corradobrit1




----------



## ian

This thread is hilarious. Fwiw, for the people above accusing the lynch mob of beating a dead horse or whatever, I think it’s worth noting that there are probably as many responses from checkpure and the Defenders of Flipping above. The conversation kept going on because it didn’t seem like he was hearing the argument. There’s been a minimal amount of name calling and personal insults here (perhaps not none, though), just people debating whether a specific action was kosher or not. Whatever, let’s all have a beer!

And there was some f**king joker proclaiming some bulls*it about the glory of hexagons. F**k hexagons.


----------



## BillHanna

I A N


----------



## Corradobrit1

ian said:


> And there was some f**king joker proclaiming some bulls*it about the glory of hexagons. F**k hexagons.


Hey hey, hexagons can be a tasty treat


----------



## Bigbbaillie

Why is it that the same people complaining about the quality of the discourse are just trying to turn this thread into a meme and think that is a better alternative?


----------



## inferno

Bigbbaillie said:


> At what point does it officially become too late to take a nap?



when you have blow left in the bag of course.


----------



## BillHanna

nap time @Bigbbaillie


----------



## BillHanna

">


----------



## M1k3




----------



## TSF415




----------



## Bodine

Man this whole thing is stupid, if one does it repeatedly, they are a flipper, if it happens once, no foul, THE END.


----------



## BillHanna

Horse carriage horse


----------



## Barmoley

Bodine said:


> Man this whole thing is stupid, if one does it repeatedly, they are a flipper, if it happens once, no foul, THE END.


Flipping is flipping, once, twice what does it matter? Three knives were flipped, at what point is it ok to point out that knives were flipped? Instead of trying to explain it and be all upset, own it or don’t do it. It is silly to first do it and then try to explain it away as ok if you don’t feel it is. If you don’t think you did anything wrong then what is the problem? This thread is to call out flipping, this was flipping regardless of the reasons behind it. Sounds like some of you guys want to be able to flip knives, but for everyone to be ok with it because you are great people and you lost money somewhere else. It is not the job of the community to make you whole.


----------



## daveb

ian said:


> And there was some f**king joker proclaiming some bulls*it about the glory of hexagons. F**k hexagons.



A hexagon is just two triangles joined and a little bit of common ground. You should take Math II


----------



## fatsumie

It's funny. He's trying to justify his gain because he lost money on other things  I don't think that counts.


----------



## daveb

Mod hat off.

Everytime there is a new flipper concern the new pages break out. My two thots on the subject, It's all about intent - If a purchaser buys with the intent of making a profit on this forum, then it's flipping and IMO poor form. If a person buys and then decides to resell (for whatever reason) and his price reflects market value then no harm, no foul. When in doubt, give benefit of doubt. 

An example of first is in the pre-covid days, Korin would have a Suisin sale in the fall with high end, $800ish single bevels selling for $200. Couple of our members would hit the weekend and by Monday would have listed the knives on here for $600. Flipping. I was interested in a particular yanagiba and after some queries here found someone who was going to attend the sale and he graciously agreed to purchase the knife for me and send it. I still have the knife (a beauty) but if I were to sell it I would probably list it for more than what I have in it.

2nd thot, It ain't flipped until it's sold.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

@Checkpure I am surely no expert, but from I have understood from the postings, what you did was indeed flipping. People trying to place parameters around the term, in my opinion, is pretty futile. It has to be taken situation by situation and then looked at in its entirety.

For example, if you'd bought the knives cheap and a few months later sold them at a mark up, some might find it unsavory but it would not likely be as alarming. You got them cheap and sold them individually, at a decent profit, within days. That just wreaks of flipping. If you said something like, "hey guys, I got these at good deal but need to make a little profit on them but still want to give back by selling them at..." that might have helped with some but either way, it was flipping. You can't justify it away with past losses or other good deeds. In this instance, it was flipping. You knew you were getting them cheap and if you didn't like them could make some money off them.

Now, the extent to which that pisses off each individual is up to them. You want to see people lose their freaking minds about flipping, dig into Spyderco sprints and GEC. Good grief. I come down with the crowd that believes that if people didn't pay the flippers, flippers wouldn't be a thing.

For sure, once you buy something, it is yours to do with as you please and sell at whatever price you can get. Each of us as individuals can decide for ourselves how we feel about that and let that inform our future selling and purchasing decisions. Threads like these allow for the scrutiny of these situations so people can have that information to make those decisions.


----------



## Checkpure

HumbleHomeCook said:


> @Checkpure I am surely no expert, but from I have understood from the postings, what you did was indeed flipping. People trying to place parameters around the term, in my opinion, is pretty futile. It has to be taken situation by situation and then looked at in its entirety.
> 
> For example, if you'd bought the knives cheap and a few months later sold them at a mark up, some might find it unsavory but it would not likely be as alarming. You got them cheap and sold them individually, at a decent profit, within days. That just wreaks of flipping. If you said something, "hey guys, I got these at good deal but need to make a little profit on them but still want to give back by selling them at..." that might have helped with some but either way, it was flipping. You can't justify it away with past losses or other good deeds. In this instance, it was flipping. You knew you were getting them cheap and if you didn't like them could make some money off them.
> 
> Now, the extent to which that pisses off each individual is up to them. You want to see people lose their freaking minds about flipping, dig into Spyderco sprints and GEC. Good grief. I come down with the crowd that believes that if people didn't pay the flippers, flippers wouldn't be a thing.
> 
> For sure, once you buy something, it is yours to do with as you please and sell at whatever price you can get. Each of us as individuals can decide for ourselves how we feel about that and let that inform our future selling and purchasing decisions. Threads like these allow for the scrutiny of these situations so people can have that information to make those decisions.


Yea I get it. Appreciate the feedback but its all been said at this point. I sold them too fast so it heightened the flip. I just bought a knife for more than what someone paid for it under a month ago...I'm not worried...I don't care what someone sells a knife for after I sell it to them or what they paid for it prior to me buying it from them. All done hammering this home.


----------



## WiriWiri

I‘m getting a little bored of this fish now. I’ve not been here long, but is this flipper hunt thing a regular event?

It‘s been fun and we should do more I say. Everyone could do with a porpoise in life,


----------



## juice

FishmanDE said:


> more of a community spirit than most of the people on here trying to crucify him (happy easter!)


#Relevant


----------



## FishmanDE

Barmoley said:


> Flipping is flipping, once, twice what does it matter? Three knives were flipped, at what point is it ok to point out that knives were flipped? Instead of trying to explain it and be all upset, own it or don’t do it. It is silly to first do it and then try to explain it away as ok if you don’t feel it is. If you don’t think you did anything wrong then what is the problem? This thread is to call out flipping, this was flipping regardless of the reasons behind it. Sounds like some of you guys want to be able to flip knives, but for everyone to be ok with it because you are great people and you lost money somewhere else. It is not the job of the community to make you whole.



Then Don’t buy the knives. Again, losing money shouldn’t be a prerequisite to participate. No one is getting ripped off and not passing along a deal doesn’t mean you don’t care about the community. And people are forced to explain it because some of you are out here trying to paint people a certain way. Again, one good deed doesn’t make a saint. Just because someone made a flip doesn’t make them a flipper. I think people are more upset at the labeling of the person that some tried to do, not the labeling of the action.


----------



## TSF415

Bro I think you need to take a deep breath. It’s really not this serious.


----------



## FishmanDE

TSF415 said:


> Bro I think you need to take a deep breath. It’s really not this serious.



I’m breathing just fine. And when you’re messing with someone’s reputation, it is that serious.


----------



## soigne_west

It’s important to have a thread like this more so than for flippers to defend themselves but for community awareness. I’d say more then the majority of members here don’t approve this type of behavior and it’s nice to have a thread to reference who not to buy or sell too. 

Plus this might be one of the most entertaining threads on the forum.


----------



## Barmoley

FishmanDE said:


> Then Don’t buy the knives. Again, losing money shouldn’t be a prerequisite to participate. No one is getting ripped off and not passing along a deal doesn’t mean you don’t care about the community. And people are forced to explain it because some of you are out here trying to paint people a certain way. Again, one good deed doesn’t make a saint. Just because someone made a flip doesn’t make them a flipper. I think people are more upset at the labeling of the person that some tried to do, not the labeling of the action.


I am not against flipping. Flipping is always a buyer problem with nonessential goods, not selling water during a drought here. This community in general doesn't promote flipping, it is not against the rules, but is discouraged. Because it is not against the rules and criticizing prices or any negative comments are not allowed in BST threads, this thread exists to notify members of flipping. It is as simple as that. Like it or not, but people are free to voice their opinions on the practices they don't like in threads outside of BST. If you flipped a knife or three some will call you a flipper, nothing to get upset over if you don't find flipping offensive. Saying that noone got ripped off is missing the point the point of the complaint. Noone is saying the seller ripped anyone off, if he did and it could be confirmed, I am sure he would be banned. All communities promote and discourage certain behaviors and this is the mechanism to do this. You don't like it don't flip or suffer the consequences. I am for flipping because it keeps rare knives in circulation here and doesn't push people to sell outside. A flip doesn't exist until someone buys and it is natural, so I think fighting it causes more harm than good. Nevertheless, the spirit of the community at the moment is anti flipping, so either don't do it or don't cry when people call you one.


----------



## FishmanDE

Barmoley said:


> so either don't do it or don't cry when people call you one.



I respect that response. My issue comes in when things like package deals pop up. Prime example today, I picked up those two hinouras from BST. I always wanted to try them, but I know from jump that I’m only interested in keeping the petty as a W2 iron clad most likely won’t work for me in a professional environment. I have the intention of selling the gyuto for fair market value, which means I got a deal on the petty. Does that make me a flipper?


----------



## soigne_west

Knife karma is real


----------



## TSF415

FishmanDE said:


> I’m breathing just fine. And when you’re messing with someone’s reputation, it is that serious.



I guess I missed the severity of this man's reputation being destroyed. LOL orrrrrrr maybe if you dropped this long time ago, and just allowed him to take some accountability instead of keeping this going then it would be over already.


----------



## OnionSlicer

Why is it so hard to accept collective criticism and just say something like _"yeah, my bad, I'm pretty new here and when I saw a juicy opportunity, I seized it without considering the greater context of my actions; I've read the comments and realize now it wasn't cool, and so I won't be repeating my mistake because I want to be a healthy part of this community"_

That would have ended discussion about this incident five pages ago. Instead there's been no acknowledgement of any fault, just a stream of justifications - one more asinine than the next - that have only fanned the flames. Some deeper self reflection is in order here, imo.

And btw, it's not just the timing of the flip that was unsavory, it's completely failing to disclose the source of the knives in the resale posts. Anyone who's been active in BST knows that it's common practice to link to previous threads for knives that were purchased on BST. Or at the very least a mention that you're not the first owner. None of that in any of the three flip posts, instead there are descriptions like "lightly used" and "never sharpened in new condition". I'm sorry, but that's veering into dishonest.


----------



## alterwisser

I love this thread


----------



## Receiver52

Is that it? What am I going to do now? You’re forcing me to do something more constructive like petting my dog or checking the baseball scores. Sheesh.


----------



## Giovanny Torres




----------



## GorillaGrunt

Nuh uh it’s a legendary blade, you can tell cuz it’s in the name


----------



## Corradobrit1

Giovanny Torres said:


> View attachment 121425


----------



## fatsumie

OnionSlicer said:


> That would have ended discussion about this incident five pages ago. Instead there's been no acknowledgement of any fault, just a stream of justifications - one more asinine than the next - that have only fanned the flames. Some deeper self reflection is in order here, imo.





TSF415 said:


> I guess I missed the severity of this man's reputation being destroyed. LOL orrrrrrr maybe if you dropped this long time ago, and just allowed him to take some accountability instead of keeping this going then it would be over already.



Careful now, he'll send you a personal message saying to talk to him face to face so he can do more justifying and at the same time will call you out for not supporting the forum like he is.


----------



## Checkpure

fatsumie said:


> Careful now, he'll send you a personal message saying to talk to him face to face so he can do more justifying and at the same time will call you out for not supporting the forum like he is.


Hey least you can do is become a supporting member. Maybe they have half price become a supporting passive aggressive member deals for Aussies like you .


----------



## M1k3

fatsumie said:


> Careful now, he'll send you a personal message saying to talk to him face to face so he can do more justifying and at the same time will call you out for not supporting the forum like he is.


Sounds a bit like what was his name? MirrorPaul? NashijiJeff?


----------



## daveb

Mod hat on.

Poporn is getting stale. Pls give this one a rest. You know, like stop posting about it.


----------



## M1k3

daveb said:


> Mod hat on.
> 
> Poporn is getting stale. Pls give this one a rest. You know, like stop posting about it.


Horse carriage horse?


----------



## Dhoff

I'd personally like more recipes on pancakes, there were some really good ones last time I accidently derailed a thread


----------



## alterwisser

Deep fried snickers is the new popcorn


----------



## daveb

I'm going to list a BNIB Kiwi for $10 - twice what I paid for it. Something new to post about.


----------



## Dhoff

daveb said:


> I'm going to list a BNIB Kiwi for $10 - twice what I paid for it. Something new to post about.



Better make it only CONUS, otherwise I'll buy it and expect you to cover shipping!


----------



## big_adventure

I think I'll list my awesome Denka for 100 euros. I'll include the original box (with no TF photo!!!) and a genuine TF tea towel.

So, 100 euros... plus 900 euros shipping. 

Any takers?


----------



## BillHanna

NO FACE NO BUY


----------



## esoo

big_adventure said:


> I think I'll list my awesome Denka for 100 euros. I'll include the original box (with no TF photo!!!) and a genuine TF tea towel.
> 
> So, 100 euros... plus 900 euros shipping.
> 
> Any takers?



Unless it comes with a nice hollow near the heel, so that the first time I take it to the stones I have to make a suji out of it to keep the edge proper I'm not interested.


----------



## Dhoff

esoo said:


> Unless it comes with a nice hollow near the heel, so that the first time I take it to the stones I have to make a suji out of it to keep the edge proper I'm not interested.



It is a TF, that does not need to be stated, of course you need to remake it into a knife. (Ive no clue, but ignorance does not stop meeee)


----------



## esoo

Dhoff said:


> It is a TF, that does not need to be stated, of course you need to remake it into a knife. (Ive no clue, but ignorance does not stop meeee)



neither do I - but if I were to believe all the threads around here - either you get mana from heaven or you're spending a lifetime making it into that.


----------



## big_adventure

esoo said:


> neither do I - but if I were to believe all the threads around here - either you get mana from heaven or you're spending a lifetime making it into that.



Based on my experience of 1 knife, I'd bet that it's mostly both of those things. 

Mine: 

Cut great out of the box.

Was thicker than I'd like it to be behind the edge.

After thinning that away, it cuts even better.

Has, for whatever reason related to atrocious quality control, a wa-handle that is literally 2mm off-center. This has zero effect in use, as I pinch-grip, but it's still weird.

Has an "unusual" profile, in my hands - I do a fair amount of push-cutting and chopping, but my Denka has a pronounced wide, upswept profile, when cutting with a level handle. It glides through everything, but I need to pay attention to avoid accordion cuts - it starts up directly from the heel and keeps going up from there, so I have to sort of ensure that the tip is down. It also doesn't have anything approaching a flat spot, so a tiny bit of draw, push or rock are required to cut wider produce.

In photos, compared with another blade that feels more "normal" to me...
















The Denka, 214mm long 210, has a 54.5mm high heel. The Togashi is 230mm with a 52mm heel.


----------



## M1k3

daveb said:


> I'm going to list a BNIB Kiwi for $10 - twice what I paid for it. Something new to post about.


Not going to try to recoup your cost on shipping for other unrelated knives? Membership cost? Taxes? Little Timmy's popsicle fund?

Are you even trying?


----------



## daveb

If I went for $15, I'm not sure I could sleep at nite,


----------



## preizzo

big_adventure said:


> Based on my experience of 1 knife, I'd bet that it's mostly both of those things.
> 
> Mine:
> 
> Cut great out of the box.
> 
> Was thicker than I'd like it to be behind the edge.
> 
> After thinning that away, it cuts even better.
> 
> Has, for whatever reason related to atrocious quality control, a wa-handle that is literally 2mm off-center. This has zero effect in use, as I pinch-grip, but it's still weird.
> 
> Has an "unusual" profile, in my hands - I do a fair amount of push-cutting and chopping, but my Denka has a pronounced wide, upswept profile, when cutting with a level handle. It glides through everything, but I need to pay attention to avoid accordion cuts - it starts up directly from the heel and keeps going up from there, so I have to sort of ensure that the tip is down. It also doesn't have anything approaching a flat spot, so a tiny bit of draw, push or rock are required to cut wider produce.
> 
> In photos, compared with another blade that feels more "normal" to me...
> 
> View attachment 121519
> 
> 
> View attachment 121520
> 
> 
> View attachment 121521
> 
> 
> The Denka, 214mm long 210, has a 54.5mm high heel. The Togashi is 230mm with a 52mm heel.


The Togashi looks awesome


----------



## inferno

M1k3 said:


> Sounds a bit like what was his name? MirrorPaul? NashijiJeff?



iirc its MigakiMark.


----------



## big_adventure

preizzo said:


> The Togashi looks awesome



Oh it is, it so very is: still the best knife overall I've ever used, and the first knife I grab when I don't specifically make an effort to grab something else. It is the only knife on my strip that I can _guarantee_ I'll never give away or sell. Thank you again.


----------



## preizzo

big_adventure said:


> Oh it is, it so very is: still the best knife overall I've ever used, and the first knife I grab when I don't specifically make an effort to grab something else. It is the only knife on my strip that I can _guarantee_ I'll never give away or sell. Thank you again.


----------



## big_adventure

preizzo said:


> ❤❤❤



About the only downside is that it will probably push me into spending another 20K on knives searching for something that can equal it.


----------



## Anton

Anyone care to recap, in 3-4 bullet points, what has transcurred in the last 30+ pages of this thread?


----------



## inferno

Anton said:


> Anyone care to recap, in 3-4 bullet points, what has transcurred in the last 30+ pages of this thread?



there was an unsanctioned flip supposedly.


----------



## Dhoff

Persons are flipping out.


----------



## preizzo

big_adventure said:


> About the only downside is that it will probably push me into spending another 20K on knives searching for something that can equal it.


I do have few other knives home that can be as good ,just so you know


----------



## big_adventure

preizzo said:


> I do have few other knives home that can be as good ,just so you know ☺



Yeah, I've seen photos. "A few" might be underselling it. I might have to block you on BST if you ever get all "selly" with them. 

Nah, despite my total lack of impulse control, I'm suuuuuuuuuurrre I can resist. Just like I resisted* buying the first of the KKF Dalman honyakis that hit BST. 

*Note: I did NOT resist that. It's on the way.


----------



## preizzo

big_adventure said:


> Yeah, I've seen photos. "A few" might be underselling it. I might have to block you on BST if you ever get all "selly" with them.
> 
> Nah, despite my total lack of impulse control, I'm suuuuuuuuuurrre I can resist. Just like I resisted* buying the first of the KKF Dalman honyakis that hit BST.
> 
> *Note: I did NOT resist that. It's on the way.


----------



## esoo

Anton said:


> Anyone care to recap, in 3-4 bullet points, what has transcurred in the last 30+ pages of this thread?



IIRC:
- a guy bought a b-stock knife for dirt cheap, sold it as near new
- someone did something similar and also filed a paypal claim, so never ended up have to pay for the knife (this may have been the same as number one)
- a guy bought a bundle at a deal (one knife almost free), and then split and sold them all for more than he paid.
- it devolved into a TF thread, as all KKF threads do.

Edit to add: and someone is trying to flip a Kiwi for double the price, but has a conscience so triple was too much


----------



## big_adventure

esoo said:


> - it devolved into a TF thread, as all KKF threads do.



WABI-SABI!!!!!


----------



## Dhoff

esoo said:


> IIRC:
> - a guy bought a b-stock knife for dirt cheap, sold it as near new
> - someone did something similar and also filed a paypal claim, so never ended up have to pay for the knife (this may have been the same as number one)
> - a guy bought a bundle at a deal (one knife almost free), and then split and sold them all for more than he paid.
> - it devolved into a TF thread, as all KKF threads do.
> 
> Edit to add: and someone is trying to flip a Kiwi for double the price, but has a conscience so triple was too much



Hey, it could have been derailed into CM thread, or even a "below 200mm is not a knife, its a toothpick in disguise".

I swear, someone must cut grapes in half with a 500mm nijato in order to be respected.


----------



## BillHanna




----------



## M1k3

BillHanna said:


> View attachment 121568
> View attachment 121569


Ay, papi chulo!

PM sent!


----------



## alterwisser

I will put up a Billipp and a Xerxes Damascus for sale.

$666 for the package.

Will someone accuse me of reverse flipperism?


----------



## inferno

alterwisser said:


> I will put up a Billipp and a Xerxes Damascus for sale.
> 
> $666 for the package.
> 
> Will someone accuse me of reverse flipperism?



intended customer is satan for this package?


----------



## drsmp

alterwisser said:


> I will put up a Billipp and a Xerxes Damascus for sale.
> 
> $666 for the package.
> 
> Will someone accuse me of reverse flipperism?



If you sell me these knives at this price I promise to sell the one that suits me the least at $333. I will even cover postage and PayPal fees.


----------



## AT5760

If you sell me a Billipp for $333 (I'll even cover shipping), I'll happily beg my wife for forgiveness afterwards.


----------



## alterwisser

AT5760 said:


> If you sell me a Billipp for $333 (I'll even cover shipping), I'll happily beg my wife for forgiveness afterwards.


 
Its shipped from Mars. Elon a Buddy of yours?


----------



## Corradobrit1

alterwisser said:


> I will put up a Billipp and a Xerxes Damascus for sale.
> 
> $666 for the package.
> 
> Will someone accuse me of reverse flipperism?


PM Sent. GLWS


----------



## GorillaGrunt

big_adventure said:


> Oh it is, it so very is: still the best knife overall I've ever used, and the first knife I grab when I don't specifically make an effort to grab something else. It is the only knife on my strip that I can _guarantee_ I'll never give away or sell. Thank you again.



which togashi? I had a blue 2 KU that was an awesome hefty workhorse, best Japanese knife for the price and unlike any other, but supplanted by a Kemadi (alternatively Shihan or HVB) and noticed that the migaki Blue 1 stainless and the White 1 are in laser territory so I’ve been interested in those again


----------



## big_adventure

GorillaGrunt said:


> which togashi? I had a blue 2 KU that was an awesome hefty workhorse, best Japanese knife for the price and unlike any other, but supplanted by a Kemadi (alternatively Shihan or HVB) and noticed that the migaki Blue 1 stainless and the White 1 are in laser territory so I’ve been interested in those again



It's a Hitohira Togashi Yohei white 1 honyaki 240mm (230 on the edge). _Definitely_ on the laser side (185g with ebony handle), and obviously a very different knife than the san mai versions.


----------



## Jville

That Jiro seems very high.


----------



## M1k3

Jville said:


> That Jiro seems very high.


The seller also.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Jville said:


> That Jiro seems very high.


Would set a new world record for a Jiro 240, but hey, we all like to dream.


----------



## Jville

Corradobrit1 said:


> Would set a new world record for a Jiro 240, but hey, we all like to dream.


Yeah, never seen them anywhere near that. I think I added shipping on to the one I sold and it was like $800(I think) and mine was a 270. When he replied to MLK saying something like, Maybe next time, I wanted to reply hopefully never!!


----------



## soigne_west

Is asking what the MSRP a question that would be deleted from a WTB post @Matus @Nemo @daveb ????


----------



## Jville

soigne_west said:


> Is asking what the MSRP a question that would be deleted from a WTB post @Matus @Nemo @daveb ????


Yeah, I thought the same thing but held off. It seems a very fair, reasonable, and pertinent question.


----------



## soigne_west

Jville said:


> That Jiro seems very high.



The Raquin too


----------



## esoo

MSRP for that Jiro Jiro Tsuchime Yo Gyuto 240mm Tagayasan Handle (#029)


----------



## Corradobrit1

esoo said:


> MSRP for that Jiro Jiro Tsuchime Yo Gyuto 240mm Tagayasan Handle (#029)


Good chance it was even less (like $150 less) at the time. The list prices of sold knives were increased retrospectively as Hitohira released later examples.


----------



## Jville

soigne_west said:


> The Raquin too


Same seller too. Crocker cutlery does have one on there for $200 more ending at $1300. It is also a 320 compared too the 250 that in the BSTs.


----------



## ian

Yea, 70mm difference is substantial. One should also note that Crocker's prices are often batsh*t insane. Bet that one's been sitting for a while. I kinda feel like one should be able to say these things in respond to that guy on the thread who was saying it's a great price, which is misleading information.

_Edit: @crockerculinary made a good point below about what goes into his pricing. Let me amend the above to just say that in this particular instance, comparing the BST price with Crocker's price isn't useful information. In general, Crocker looks like he's operating a very worthwhile business. He has a lot of great stuff there, and seems to be a passionate member of the knife community._


----------



## GorillaGrunt

I got a 250ish shaped just like that Raquin from a local (and very skilled) maker, mine had a bit of a price break but his standard would have been $1000.


----------



## ian

GorillaGrunt said:


> I got a 250ish shaped just like that Raquin from a local (and very skilled) maker, mine had a bit of a price break but his standard would have been $1000.



Not sure a different maker's a useful comparison, but point taken that knives can be expensive and that's ok!


----------



## daveb

M1k3 said:


> *Cuts like a dream. Never used it (I saw what you did there.....)*
> 
> To steep for my wallet...
> GLWS





soigne_west said:


> Is asking what the MSRP a question that would be deleted from a WTB post @Matus @Nemo @daveb ????



The BST post belongs to the OP. Such a question should be asked via PM. 

But I think I get where you're going....


----------



## andrewsa

Before I buy it I'm gonna have to have it locally checked by a reputable maker in Australia.


----------



## daveb

ian said:


> I kinda feel like one should be able to say these things in respond to that guy on the thread who was saying it's a great price, which is misleading information.



Yo Math Guy, If you paid attention in English class you would know that "great" can mean "very large" like Great Lakes.


----------



## ian

andrewsa said:


> Before I buy it I'm gonna have to have it locally checked by a reputable maker in Australia.



What are you going to buy?


----------



## Jville

daveb said:


> Yo Math Guy, If you paid attention in English class you would know that "great" can mean "very large" like Great Lakes.


I’m sure that was what he meant.


----------



## juice

daveb said:


> Yo Math Guy, If you paid attention in English class you would know that "great" can mean "very large" like Great Lakes.




FWIW, I think the RRP question is pretty fair, and a genuine seller would have no issues answering it.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

ian said:


> Not sure a different maker's a useful comparison, but point taken that knives can be expensive and that's ok!



It’s not a precise comparison, no, but I wouldn’t say it’s useless either, sort of an anecdotal data point. He also thinks Raquin is better than he is for whatever that’s worth. On the other hand my Raquin cost me about half that. So maybe I’d express my opinion as “it’s not an unreasonable price but that doesn’t mean I want to pay it”


----------



## Jville

GorillaGrunt said:


> It’s not a precise comparison, no, but I wouldn’t say it’s useless either, sort of an anecdotal data point. He also thinks Raquin is better than he is for whatever that’s worth. On the other hand my Raquin cost me about half that. So maybe I’d express my opinion as “it’s not an unreasonable price but that doesn’t mean I want to pay it”


But it’s definitely inflated from what Bryan is charging.


----------



## FishmanDE

It’s almost as amusing as the guy trying to sell a 240 Dama Fuji on another forum for $1500


----------



## Mikeadunne

FishmanDE said:


> It’s almost as amusing as the guy trying to sell a 240 Dama Fuji on another forum for $1500


I saw that s**t and almost fell out of my chair. I'm not active on that forum but that is just shameful and he should just stick to flipping Jordans or yeezys.


----------



## FishmanDE

Mikeadunne said:


> I saw that s**t and almost fell out of my chair. I'm not active on that forum but that is just shameful and he should just stick to flipping Jordans or yeezys.



it’s a issue of principle. People need to sincerely stop paying over retail. This is too niche and tight a community for this to be allowed to continue. people will only flip as long as there are buyers


----------



## Mikeadunne

Shameful might be a bit hyperbolic. I’m gonna walk that back a little. There are people doing way worse in this world...

That guy is lame. I hope no one buys his knife.


----------



## friz

The person who is selling Sakai Ichimonji X Nenohi Coreless Steel Santoku 180mm, received the knife as a giveaway. Just so you know about that aye?!


----------



## uniliang

friz said:


> The person who is selling Sakai Ichimonji X Nenohi Coreless Steel Santoku 180mm, received the knife as a giveaway. Just so you know about that aye?!


Oh, that’s me. So instead of selling it, I should just give it away?


----------



## friz

uniliang said:


> Oh, that’s me. So instead of selling it, I should just give it away?


No man. You have the right to do whatever you want. No hard feelings here.


----------



## Dhoff

uniliang said:


> Oh, that’s me. So instead of selling it, I should just give it away?



Not imo, sell, keep, use, throw over your left shoulder and see if you hit a smurf. It's your knife and having won it in a giveaway does not come with obligations.


----------



## Matt Jacobs

soigne_west said:


> Is asking what the MSRP a question that would be deleted from a WTB post @Matus @Nemo @daveb ????


Carbon knife Co sold one yesterday. The pricing is still on their site


----------



## Elliot

ian said:


> Yea, 70mm difference is substantial. One should also note that Crocker's prices are often batsh*t insane. Bet that one's been sitting for a while. I kinda feel like one should be able to say these things in respond to that guy on the thread who was saying it's a great price, which is misleading information.



Well, that is actually part of Crocker's business model. Ostensibly a retail flipper. I have seen knives sold on BST, patina removed, add $100, and then resold. He does have relationships with certain makers that make him no different than a typical retailer, but at one point, the knives were just BST gems flipped.


----------



## Jville

Elliot said:


> Well, that is actually part of Crocker's business model. Ostensibly a retail flipper. I have seen knives sold on BST, patina removed, add $100, and then resold. He does have relationships with certain makers that make him no different than a typical retailer, but at one point, the knives were just BST gems flipped.


That makes sense. Previously I had only seen lower end knives that didn’t seem unreasonably priced by him. But that raquin reeks of flipping. Funny, flippers complimenting flippers are low prices.


----------



## Jovidah

If this is going to remain acceptable under forum rules, can we at least allow the posting of aquatic mammal pictures from TV series in the BST forum?


----------



## Corradobrit1

Jovidah said:


> If this is going to remain acceptable under forum rules, can we at least allow the posting of aquatic mammal pictures from TV series in the BST forum?


Just so long as we don't see Flipper prepped for sale on some far flung market stall like in the show-your-cat thread.......


----------



## Jovidah

Hey you can't be picky when it comes to Japanese traditions. You want the fancy knives, you gotta take the dolphin hunting with it...


----------



## daveb

Jovidah said:


> If this is going to remain acceptable under forum rules, can we at least allow the posting of aquatic mammal pictures from TV series in the BST forum?



Better than a tuna sandwich. And no.


----------



## TSF415

Elliot said:


> Well, that is actually part of Crocker's business model. Ostensibly a retail flipper. I have seen knives sold on BST, patina removed, add $100, and then resold. He does have relationships with certain makers that make him no different than a typical retailer, but at one point, the knives were just BST gems flipped.



I don't see much of an issue with what Crocker did. It's a legitimate business no different than an antiques store. My issue with flipping is within the community when someone gives someone else a great deal and then that person turns around and puts its on bst for a profit. Now if Crocker was doing some shady deals with his business than I think it would be fine to post here for others not to sell to him but I dont think theres any of that going on.


----------



## crockerculinary

ian said:


> One should also note that Crocker's prices are often batsh*t insane.


I agree that it might appear that way, but I’ll bet if you were privy to everything that it took to get a particular knife to someone’s door, you probably wouldn’t think so.

In the case of the Raquin I also overpaid for it as part of a bad group buy with a seller who wasn’t honest about things and is now on my “never ever do business with” list. I won’t bore you with the details but I wouldn’t even sell to him now.

There are almost always extenuating circumstances when you see an inflated price from me, and I am about as honest and transparent about those processes as can be, so if you ever want to know feel free to ask. I’m an open book. Everybody who does business with me knows I’m honest and transparent. But I am in business. I need to make a profit or I cant survive. Usually when I get a good deal I pass it along. Sometimes I don’t get a good deal and I have to pass that along too. For example I recently bought a batch of knives from overseas, and got hit HARD at customs. Duty fees, phone calls, processing fees, forms and paperwork, processing the processing fees fees... it was a big hit, and I had to add it on to the price. From the outside, you might think I’m price gouging, but it’s actually just what it costs to get that knife to you. I can’t just eat it or I wouldn’t be able to stay in business.

And yes, buying and selling second hand knives is part of my business model. (So is free international shipping included in the price, and so are completely unnecessary giveaways of thousands of dollars of free stuff, but whatevs.) I’m also very happy now that a lot more people know they can bring knives they are selling to me instead of me having to spend so much time hunting them down.

To be totally clear about it, when it comes to handmade knives, my business model is “acquiring special one of a kind knives for my customers”, and I consider that a big part of my mission. Second hand, third hand, full retail even. I have had many customers tell me they are interested in knives from a specific maker and they are more than happy to pay a little extra for my time. For example I have a customer who wants knives from Bloodroot Blades, and the only way to get a knife from Bloodroot is to buy one at full retail from their newsletter sale or find one on the second hand market. Every month when they have their sale I try to get a couple and I keep an eye out on the forums. So if I was actually able to buy one, I would then turn around and sell it to him. Some of you might call that flipping, I call it providing a service for my customers. (Someone back somewhere in this thread even called me “dishonorable” for doing that, which is a bit of a stretch I think.) I used to buy a lot more knives like this and through second hand forums as I was getting started, but the fact is those are often the lowest profit margins and insinuations that I am doing something shady made me slow down on this practice. At the same time if an amazing one of a kind knife from an amazing maker comes available I wouldn’t shy away from paying whatever price I felt was worth it to me.

As Another note, y’all have to understand that I’m a collector at heart. I LOVE these things, and again in the case of the Raquin, I love seeing it in my shop, and sharing it with folks. When I decide on price sometimes I ask myself how much would it take for me to be okay with it leaving? Some I just don’t want to sell that much, and so that may be my “don’t really want to sell it price”. I’m sure most of you have knives that you love so much you wouldn’t sell if someone offered you the same retail price you paid. I have a few of those for sure. This is definitely the case with the Raquin. I genuinely believe it is a one of a kind work of art and as such is totally undervalued and underpriced. Please, show me another one.

And you know, one last thing I can’t walk away without saying- a number of you all could really do with a little more introspection on how you communicate. I know the nature of this website and the internet in general makes it really easy to be critical, but I would encourage taking a little time and thinking about what you post before you do so. If you actually don’t know anything about what you’re talking about, why do you feel the need to speak up and give your opinion? why do you think you have the right to say what someone should or shouldn’t do with their business? I get it, I’ve done it before too, but I wish I hadn’t.

Anyway, if anyone ever has a concern surrounding my business, feel free to reach out. I’d appreciate a conversation instead of trying to drag my business online.


----------



## Dhoff

crockerculinary said:


> I agree that it might appear that way, but I’ll bet if you were privy to everything that it took to get a particular knife to someone’s door, you probably wouldn’t think so.
> 
> In the case of the Raquin I also overpaid for it as part of a bad group buy with a seller who wasn’t honest about things and is now on my “never ever do business with” list. I won’t bore you with the details but I wouldn’t even sell to him now.
> 
> There are almost always extenuating circumstances when you see an inflated price from me, and I am about as honest and transparent about those processes as can be, so if you ever want to know feel free to ask. I’m an open book. Everybody who does business with me knows I’m honest and transparent. But I am in business. I need to make a profit or I cant survive. Usually when I get a good deal I pass it along. Sometimes I don’t get a good deal and I have to pass that along too. For example I recently bought a batch of knives from overseas, and got hit HARD at customs. Duty fees, phone calls, processing fees, forms and paperwork, processing the processing fees fees... it was a big hit, and I had to add it on to the price. From the outside, you might think I’m price gouging, but it’s actually just what it costs to get that knife to you. I can’t just eat it or I wouldn’t be able to stay in business.
> 
> And yes, buying and selling second hand knives is part of my business model. (So is free international shipping included in the price, and so are completely unnecessary giveaways of thousands of dollars of free stuff, but whatevs.)
> 
> To be totally clear about it, when it comes to handmade knives, my business model is “acquiring special one of a kind knives for my customers”, and I consider that a big part of my mission. Second hand, third hand, full retail even. I have had many customers tell me they are interested in knives from a specific maker and they are more than happy to pay a little extra for my time. For example I have a customer who wants knives from Bloodroot Blades, and the only way to get a knife from Bloodroot is to buy one at full retail from their newsletter sale or find one on the second hand market. Every month when they have their sale I try to get a couple and I keep an eye out on the forums. So if I was actually able to buy one, I would then turn around and sell it to him. Some of you might call that flipping, I call it providing a service for my customers. Someone back somewhere in this thread even called me “dishonorable” for doing that, which is a bit of a stretch I think.) I used to buy a lot more knives like this and through second hand forums as I was getting started, but the fact is those are often the lowest profit margins and insinuations that I am doing something shady made me slow down on this practice. At the same time if an amazing one of a kind knife from an amazing maker comes available I wouldn’t shy away from paying whatever price I felt was worth it to me.
> 
> As Another note, y’all have to understand that I’m a collector at heart. I LOVE these things, and again in the case of the Raquin, I love seeing it in my shop, and sharing it with folks. When I decide on price sometimes I ask myself how much would it take for me to be okay with it leaving? Some I just don’t want to sell that much, and so that may be my “don’t really want to sell it price”. I’m sure most of you have knives that you love so much you wouldn’t sell if someone offered you the same retail price you paid. I have a few of those for sure. This is definitely the case with the Raquin. I genuinely believe it is a one of a kind work of art and as such is totally undervalued and underpriced. Please, show me another one.
> 
> And you know, one last thing I can’t walk away without saying- a number at you all could really do with a little more introspection on how you communicate. I know the nature of this website and the internet in general makes it really easy to be critical, but I would encourage taking a little time and thinking about what you post before you do so. If you actually don’t know anything about what you’re talking about, why do you feel the need to speak up and give your opinion? why do you think you have the right to say what someone should or shouldn’t do with their business? I get it, I’ve done it before too, but I wish I hadn’t.
> 
> Anyway, if anyone ever has a concern surrounding my business, feel free to reach out. I’d appreciate a conversation instead of trying to drag my business online.



I'm near clueless in this debate, but thank you for a calm and polite post.


----------



## ian

crockerculinary said:


> I agree that it might appear that way, but I’ll bet if you were privy to everything that it took to get a particular knife to someone’s door, you probably wouldn’t think so.
> 
> In the case of the Raquin I also overpaid for it as part of a bad group buy with a seller who wasn’t honest about things and is now on my “never ever do business with” list. I won’t bore you with the details but I wouldn’t even sell to him now.
> 
> There are almost always extenuating circumstances when you see an inflated price from me, and I am about as honest and transparent about those processes as can be, so if you ever want to know feel free to ask. I’m an open book. Everybody who does business with me knows I’m honest and transparent. But I am in business. I need to make a profit or I cant survive. Usually when I get a good deal I pass it along. Sometimes I don’t get a good deal and I have to pass that along too. For example I recently bought a batch of knives from overseas, and got hit HARD at customs. Duty fees, phone calls, processing fees, forms and paperwork, processing the processing fees fees... it was a big hit, and I had to add it on to the price. From the outside, you might think I’m price gouging, but it’s actually just what it costs to get that knife to you. I can’t just eat it or I wouldn’t be able to stay in business.
> 
> And yes, buying and selling second hand knives is part of my business model. (So is free international shipping included in the price, and so are completely unnecessary giveaways of thousands of dollars of free stuff, but whatevs.) I’m also very happy now that a lot more people know they can bring knives they are selling to me instead of me having to spend so much time hunting them down.
> 
> To be totally clear about it, when it comes to handmade knives, my business model is “acquiring special one of a kind knives for my customers”, and I consider that a big part of my mission. Second hand, third hand, full retail even. I have had many customers tell me they are interested in knives from a specific maker and they are more than happy to pay a little extra for my time. For example I have a customer who wants knives from Bloodroot Blades, and the only way to get a knife from Bloodroot is to buy one at full retail from their newsletter sale or find one on the second hand market. Every month when they have their sale I try to get a couple and I keep an eye out on the forums. So if I was actually able to buy one, I would then turn around and sell it to him. Some of you might call that flipping, I call it providing a service for my customers. (Someone back somewhere in this thread even called me “dishonorable” for doing that, which is a bit of a stretch I think.) I used to buy a lot more knives like this and through second hand forums as I was getting started, but the fact is those are often the lowest profit margins and insinuations that I am doing something shady made me slow down on this practice. At the same time if an amazing one of a kind knife from an amazing maker comes available I wouldn’t shy away from paying whatever price I felt was worth it to me.
> 
> As Another note, y’all have to understand that I’m a collector at heart. I LOVE these things, and again in the case of the Raquin, I love seeing it in my shop, and sharing it with folks. When I decide on price sometimes I ask myself how much would it take for me to be okay with it leaving? Some I just don’t want to sell that much, and so that may be my “don’t really want to sell it price”. I’m sure most of you have knives that you love so much you wouldn’t sell if someone offered you the same retail price you paid. I have a few of those for sure. This is definitely the case with the Raquin. I genuinely believe it is a one of a kind work of art and as such is totally undervalued and underpriced. Please, show me another one.
> 
> And you know, one last thing I can’t walk away without saying- a number of you all could really do with a little more introspection on how you communicate. I know the nature of this website and the internet in general makes it really easy to be critical, but I would encourage taking a little time and thinking about what you post before you do so. If you actually don’t know anything about what you’re talking about, why do you feel the need to speak up and give your opinion? why do you think you have the right to say what someone should or shouldn’t do with their business? I get it, I’ve done it before too, but I wish I hadn’t.
> 
> Anyway, if anyone ever has a concern surrounding my business, feel free to reach out. I’d appreciate a conversation instead of trying to drag my business online.



That's a really good post. 

It's fair to say that acquiring and distributing rare knives can be a very valuable service. Perhaps it's not fair to compare what happens on BST to what happens with a retail establishment, and perhaps it's also unfair to complain about someone trying to make a profit in BST. I don't think that calling someone's price very high, without further commentary, should be disallowed, though. (I apologize for the use of the inflammatory term batsh*t.) The prices are sometimes objectively high relative to the prices direct from the makers --- that doesn't mean there's not a good reason for it, it just means that using these prices as a comparison point to justify a BST listing price is not always the best idea. But I'll never understand the collector market anyway, so maybe I should shut up.

Thanks again for the eloquent post. GLWSales.


----------



## captaincaed

It's an interesting market. Supply for certain things is pretty low. Similar to fine books. In that market, rare sellers buy for 1/3 to 1/4 their selling price. There's work involved with curating a nice collection. Cost accompanies. 

Reminds me of the classic economics triangle. I want it good, I want it cheap, and I want it now. Pick two.

We're lucky to have an active group here and second hand options. And sellers here are free to choose their buyer. It does seem a little strange to have retail buyers sourcing here, but I can't think of another hobby where that's different. 

Also FWIW, Gabriel puts a darn good edge on a knife. And carries beautiful pottery that I want some of. And the maker is out. And I'm not part of a pottery forum.


----------



## Corradobrit1

crockerculinary said:


> In the case of the Raquin I also overpaid for it as part of a bad group buy with a seller who wasn’t honest about things and is now on my “never ever do business with” list. I won’t bore you with the details but I wouldn’t even sell to him now.


Good to know. Caveat Emptor when dealing with that seller. 




__





SOLD - Raquin Suji "a la française”


This is one of my favorite blades from Bryan, it literally put a smile on my face every time I pick it up and the feeling is spot on. Someone is going to really enjoy this blade as this is an insanely sexy blade: Used once to slice meat. Never been either sharpened. Ship CONUS on me. EU let’s...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## Jovidah

ian said:


> Perhaps it's not fair to compare what's happens on BST to what happens with a retail establishment, and perhaps it's also unfair to complain about someone trying to make a profit in BST.


The way I see it trying to make a profit on B/S/T goes completely contrary to the spirit of enthusiast forums like these. If people want to turn it into a business, that's all fine and legit, but then they should open a business, advertise it as such, and not be given a free platform here. By providing the marketplace you might actually be contributing to the problem.


----------



## Elliot

That’s just the nature of a forum though. Look at Kato’s, Shigs and Kono’s. All fine knives but absolutely nowhere near the performance or quality that the price would suggest. While there are certainly other factors at play, that pricing was by and large created by KKF, to the point where now even retailers charge something akin to aftermarket prices.

I sincerely doubt Kato-San charges more than double to retailers from five years ago. Same with Shigefusa. But... that’s where we are.


----------



## TSF415

So in conclusion....... No one should pay $1200 for a Jiro 240mm. Try a WTB, I'm sure someone is willing to part with theirs for cost.


----------



## daveb

But if someone wants one $1200 worth, then both parties will be happy.


----------



## tcmx3

frankly, I think if you're having to write a wall of text to defend yourself, you're in the wrong business. or rather, you're in one I am not interested in myself.

but, if there were a "look at this dumb*** underpricing his stuff" for people to throw peanuts at folks for leaving a few dollars on the table Id probably be on every page


----------



## TSF415

tcmx3 said:


> frankly, I think if you're having to write a wall of text to defend yourself, you're in the wrong business. or rather, you're in one I am not interested in myself.
> 
> but, if there were a "look at this dumb*** underpricing his stuff" for people to throw peanuts at folks for leaving a few dollars on the table Id probably be on every page



Wild guess here but I'm going to guess you are not a business owner. Am I right?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

tcmx3 said:


> frankly, I think if you're having to write a wall of text to defend yourself, you're in the wrong business. or rather, you're in one I am not interested in myself.



hmm, Jannis (Xerxes) and Trey (Comet Knives) wrote one of those...
struggling to figure out why they were in the wrong business too.

In any case, when this thread convinces a poor soul who's been collecting knives a while to sell their shigs and katos at like 2012 prices someone tag me please. You guys are doing great so far


----------



## juice

tcmx3 said:


> frankly, I think if you're having to write a wall of text to defend yourself, you're in the wrong business.


Wut?


----------



## drsmp

How many +$100 “flips” minus shipping and credit card fees does a guy have to sell to even cover rent and utilities? So makes maybe $75-80 profit if the time/supplies/equipment for sharpening/tune up, ad creation and customer care is free. Pretty different than a collector on their couch making $300-700 on a very recently purchased knife


----------



## crockerculinary

tcmx3 said:


> frankly, I think if you're having to write a wall of text to defend yourself, you're in the wrong business.


I’m sorry, do I know you?


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

crockerculinary said:


> I’m sorry, do I know you?


You must have sold him a TF in the past...


----------



## M1k3

tcmx3 said:


> but, if there were a "look at this dumb*** underpricing his stuff" for people to throw peanuts at folks for leaving a few dollars on the table Id probably be on every page


Done. Knock yourself out.


----------



## tcmx3

TSF415 said:


> Wild guess here but I'm going to guess you are not a business owner. Am I right?



no because I sold out.

as it happens Ive actually done profitability, forecasting, parts quantity ordering, workforce reductions, plus built to-the-minute sales tracking systems and recurring revenue recognition tracking from a data/programming perspective. if I may ask, what have you done that you think makes you so hip to it?


----------



## tcmx3

one of the things I like about this thread is it exposes how the generation that complains about how young people are snowflakes go into absolute nuclear meltdown if you accurately identify their behavior.

(btw cant wait till we overlook I know more about squeezing blood from the profitability stone than the clown who brought it up just like how in the TF threads all the butthurt people conveniently ignore that I may own TF knives)


----------



## ian

Hmmm, I’m personally not sure how old anyone on this thread is. Are you? Iirc, @TSF415 owns/runs a restaurant, so he’s probably pretty familiar with this stuff. Anyway, maybe we can tone down the rhetoric.

I think Crocker outlined pretty well that in order to survive as a brick and mortar he’s gotta mark up the things he sells to some extent, and that sometimes he buys things already marked up. You could argue about what value the business is bringing, but apparently it’s bringing good value to some people because he’s still in business. He also seems like a genuine and passionate member of the community. I wouldn’t use some of his prices to justify a BST listing price, but that's kind of irrelevant.


----------



## TSF415

tcmx3 said:


> no because I sold out.
> 
> as it happens Ive actually done profitability, forecasting, parts quantity ordering, workforce reductions, plus built to-the-minute sales tracking systems and recurring revenue recognition tracking from a data/programming perspective. if I may ask, what have you done that you think makes you so hip to it?



So the answer was no. Why would you write a whole paragraph, explains the jobs you’ve done, to prove yourself because you don’t own a business? Sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black. 

I don’t see owning a business as being better than being an employee. They both have their plus and minuses. There’s just a different perspective on things when you have a little more skin in the game. Ie… you might take the time to write a thoughtful response in a community that your business is based on.


----------



## tcmx3

TSF415 said:


> So the answer was no. Why would you write a whole paragraph, explains the jobs you’ve done, to prove yourself because you don’t own a business? Sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black.
> 
> I don’t see owning a business as being better than being an employee. They both have their plus and minuses. There’s just a different perspective on things when you have a little more skin in the game. Ie… you might take the time to write a thoughtful response in a community that your business is based on.



so youre ignoring the part where I did and sold? 

and again "owning a business" is a matter of having the money to start one. I know plenty about making money, I just dont place an inherit value on making a buck, and I think if you have to go to great lengths to explain your behavior, your behavior is suspect. that being controversial is wild.


----------



## AT5760

So much hostility.

Customer service matters tremendously in the luxury goods business. @crockerculinary explained his business model and his process thoughtfully and respectfully. He responded to a comment, and the person who made the initial comment acknowledged and appreciated the post. Why interject? Why snipe at him? Why snipe at anyone? 

Yeah, I could just shut my virtual mouth and ignore it. But is it too much to ask that people in this community treat each other with a basic level of respect?


----------



## captaincaed

tcmx3 said:


> no because I sold out.
> 
> as it happens Ive actually done profitability, forecasting, parts quantity ordering, workforce reductions, plus built to-the-minute sales tracking systems and recurring revenue recognition tracking from a data/programming perspective. if I may ask, what have you done that you think makes you so hip to it?


Which industry was your work in, out of curiosity? No need for names, just wondering about broad strokes.


----------



## tcmx3

captaincaed said:


> Which industry was your work in, out of curiosity? No need for names, just wondering about broad strokes.



tech but when I did the stuff mentioned it was more hardware focused.

blessedly these days I dont have to tell anyone they dont have a job anymore because theyre 100 miles too far east, an unfortunate side effect of large items being sold into low tech envs

if you want to know more you can dm me


----------



## danemonji

Guys this thread lost all meaning since the original post. Not sure how this arguing is helping the community. It is a free market and everybody sells their stuff for whatever they consider right. Like all free markets, demand drives price and if someone wants something badly and he's not willing to wait, he can make an expensive offer if he can afford it. Simple as that. If someone makes a proffit out of this, good for them to figure out a business plan. I usually end up loosing money on my purchases ( 30% tax on initial buy outside europe, expensive dhl postings on initial buy and sale, expensive paypal fees, currency conversion fees -all from my pocket). With instagram, ebay and so many sales channels i think this knife business is not revolving around BST. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. If you want to make a purchase and got some brains, you will investigate the average prices and tell what's right. Simple as that.


----------



## Jville

danemonji said:


> Guys this thread lost all meaning since the original post. Not sure how this arguing is helping the community. It is a free market and everybody sells their stuff for whatever they consider right. Like all free markets, demand drives price and if someone wants something badly and he's not willing to wait, he can make an expensive offer if he can afford it. Simple as that. If someone makes a proffit out of this, good for them to figure out a business plan. I usually end up loosing money on my purchases ( 30% tax on initial buy outside europe, expensive dhl postings on initial buy and sale, expensive paypal fees, currency conversion fees -all from my pocket). With instagram, ebay and so many sales channels i think this knife business is not revolving around BST. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. If you want to make a purchase and got some brains, you will investigate the average prices and tell what's right. Simple as that.


The thread is called flipper alert. It’s about calling attention to those who are flipping in the community. If you don’t want to see about that topic why not just avoid reading this thread. Like no one has never heard the free market spiel? I think people are well aware of the concept.


----------



## timebard

To butt into the middle of this--I appreciate the thoughtful response from Crocker and can see the value he provides to his clients no question. That's fine. The question is: if this community has a norm against flipping, based on a desire for BST to facilitate people trying and passing on knives and stones in a collaborative way (not making every dollar they possibly can off a given sale), how that should interact with people who are treating this as a business or side hussle rather than a hobby? 

The way I see it--if that norm is part of what makes BST a valuable part of this community, then all the explanation is sort of beside the point. If it's poor form for me to pick up one of @SolidSnake03's crazy deals (or a Kaiju at MSRP, or a custom from a maker with a years-long waitlist) on BST and turn around and sell it for a XX% premium, it's poor form for someone to do it at scale and call it a business. And if that norm isn't really part of what BST is about, why not allow auctions or unpriced listings so BST sellers can make sure they're getting the true value of their sales?

I'm small-time by the standards of BST power users but I've bought a couple very nice knives for less than the seller probably could have gotten. My intention when I let them go is to pass that deal on to the next guy, but I'd rather not do that if the next guy is just trying to turn a profit. Bottom line, all I can do about it is talk sh*t here and be choosy about who I sell to, but that's my take.


----------



## danemonji

Jville said:


> The thread is called flipper alert. It’s about calling attention to those who are flipping in the community. If you don’t want to see about that topic why not just avoid reading this thread. Like no one has never heard the free market spiel? I think people are well aware of the concept.


No. The thread was about a member who won Robyn Dalman's scrap knives raffle( knives which were never meant to be sold on the market due to initial givaway agreement) and who sold them for profit as a regular Dalman gyuto. Then the thread derailed towards blaming other for making a profit from their smarter sales. It was agreed from the moderators that BST would not turn into a witch hunt for prices and that this topic was just for information sake. Now it becomes what it wasn't supposed to be.


----------



## Jville

danemonji said:


> No. The thread was about a member who won Robyn Dalman's scrap knives raffle( knives which were never meant to be sold on the market due to initial givaway agreement) and who sold them for profit as a regular Dalman gyuto. Then the thread derailed towards blaming other for making a profit from their smarter sales. It was agreed from the moderators that BST would not turn into a witch hunt for prices and that this topic was just for information sake. Now it becomes what it wasn't supposed to be.


Disagree, well of course topics derail and this thread will have some of that. But it still is calling out flipping. And it would appear the one selling the jiro and raquin (I am not referring to Crockery) at exuberant prices is flipping, maybe not, but would appear so. Also this is not BST. And people are allowed to discuss the topic. But now you want to go even further and police or silence people that want to discuss the topic. Again you could just ignore the thread that’s your perogative, but that doesn’t seem enough for you.


----------



## captaincaed

Jville said:


> exuberant prices


This is my new favorite turn of phrase. I'm going to find places to use this out in the wild


----------



## soigne_west

@crockerculinary shiop is here where I live, it’s beautiful filled with lots of nice things. It’s also in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Sacramento. He also a super nice guy and has given me some great deals on stuff. If anyone has any concerns on his prices or business practices I urge you guys to message him. In my experience he is a very pleasant and reasonable guy to deal with.

That’s all. Good day,


----------



## FishmanDE

I love coming back from a hard days work to find some tea. Crockery clearly has a specific business model in mind, and that clearly works for them. Personally, I’d never pay that much for what they offer but hey, to each their own. Buying retail and selling to the lazy or uninformed has been around for as long as time. Take a look at almost every importer. 


I would like to note also, how hilarious it is that half of the people on the last witch hunt flipped on the other half in this one.

And finally, wild to me those BST posts are allowed to remain up. I suppose if someone is willing to overpay, then that’s on them, I just find them intentionally misleading and that’s a huge detriment to this community; unlike the last “witch” you all tried to mangle for trying to resell things at market value. Things are worth what they’re worth. These were officially overpriced, no debate. Hopefully everyone’s chakra’s and priorities have realigned and we can focus on actual flippers.


----------



## soigne_west

I love how this thread really gets under people’s skin. However, for me personally at least this isn’t the intent of this thread.

We (Americans for sure) live in a capitalist world. As consumers we’re always googling how to find the cheapest pair of ray bans, table saws and pairs of underwear. When people decide to charge more than what the perceived value (or at least KKF’s perception of what the value is) it’s OK and normal for people to say “Hey! You can get a way better deal then that.” 

In addition, this is a very close and tight knit community, that’s ever growing. Threads like this one are important to the community, especially for the newer members who might not know what is or isn’t a good deal. 

If sellers don’t like this there are other forums (or Reddit) or eBay where they can go and try and sell, but no one should be upset when they get called out.


----------



## danemonji

Then if we keep such threads where people are being pointed out, perhaps it is a good idea to lay out some ground rules to avoid abuse.
First of all define the term flipper.
The original meaning of flipper is someone periodically buying cheap deals on BST and reselling for higher value on BST..flipping them.
Perhaps for others flipper is someone selling knives at what they consider too high prices.
This would make all early shig and kato owners and most knife collectors flippers.
I am not trying to be the devil's advocate here, i'm just saying that it should be clear what the rules are, and how do we put a price on something.
From my point of view if we decide that the nice thing to do is to sell on BST cheaper than what we actually payed for, I am fine with that as I already do that. I can't wait to buy a kato damascus at its original JNS price or a Yo Shig 240 at MSRP price. Just put it out there.


----------



## FishmanDE

A flipper, to me, is ‘someone who inflates the price of a knife beyond current market value for profit’. And I’m curious how there is further room for interpretation?


----------



## danemonji

FishmanDE said:


> A flipper, to me, is ‘someone who inflates the price of a knife beyond current market value for profit’. And I’m curious how there is further room for interpretation?


What is the current market value and how to we set that? Especially for knives that are not available at retail...keijiro doi, kiyoshi kato, shigefusa, Ashi honyaki and the list for rare and desirable knives is long. I am just curious for example what is the correct price for Ashi Honyaki gyuto 240


----------



## FishmanDE

That’s a fair question. I think the best you can do with such coveted items is look at the most recent sale prices. That said, I don’t think anyone has a problem with the pricing on these. I think the problem is with “hype” knives and deals that pop up on BST. And I think that^ definition covers the majority of relevant issues.

Edit: 

New hype knives. IE buying and selling for profit is a short period. That is even still murky, but I feel like we all know it when we see it. Obviously I’m not referring to someone who purchased a shig 5 years ago. That’s more appreciation in value, not forced price inflation


----------



## Jville

danemonji said:


> What is the current market value and how to we set that? Especially for knives that are not available at retail...keijiro doi, kiyoshi kato, shigefusa, Ashi honyaki and the list for rare and desirable knives is long. I am just curious for example what is the correct price for Ashi Honyaki gyuto 240


If you are honest with yourself, you will know flipping when you see it usually. It’s when you are buying hard to get limited knives (with the intent) of jacking up the price to make a profit. I know there are some gray areas, but a lot of times it is pretty plain to see. And when someone isn’t flipping it they can usually explain their selling price and origin.


----------



## danemonji

One more thing I want to add. Let's have the price in the WTB postings. I mean we ask people to explicitly post their selling price and the WTB remains in the gray areas. I am thinking that if someone desperately wants to buy a knife and purchases it over retail value, then they will always resell it at higher value. Some transparency in the WTB and WTS posts will balance prices and make clear the market value.


----------



## big_adventure

I think that having "free pricing" is generally good. Retail generally works this way, as do all commercial secondhand sales operations. Your buy price and your sell price are not correlated by anything other than demand. 

I also get that it can feel dirty when you see someone buy a good deal on BST and repost it here or elsewhere in a week without the good deal applied. In that case, well, we kind of have to depend on the community to help defend the community. Having an alert thread, a watch-out-for-this forum, etc. would help.

The problem becomes making specific rules to address this "issue." How would you go about it? How much is too much of a markup? If it's, say, >10%, well, what about a Kato someone bought 7 years ago, and selling it now. The markup is obviously much higher than 10% on that item. OK, so if it becomes "no more than 10% for 6 months" then that just opens up the window to buying everything with growth now, then waiting 183 days and posting it for > 10%. Overall, it wouldn't fix the price inflation issue, the "flipper" issue or the availability issue, it would just kick the can down the road, and it would punish people who legitimately want to resell something that _has _gone up in price 3 months down the line.


----------



## Midsummer

This debate over the proper way to price knives on BST will never get resolved. We are witnessing a microcosm of the greater community where traditional democratic ideas of the West are in conflict with the rising sentiments of a collectivist society. Classic Judeo Christian values vs. the post modern, neomarxist convictions. The streets will run with blood.


----------



## tcmx3

soigne_west said:


> We (Americans for sure) live in a capitalist world. As consumers we’re always googling how to find the cheapest pair of ray bans, table saws and pairs of underwear. When people decide to charge more than what the perceived value (or at least KKF’s perception of what the value is) it’s OK and normal for people to say “Hey! You can get a way better deal then that.”



I agree with what you're saying but in this part I would say that while it's true, people still need to ask themselves "how much does a dollar cost?".

I personally think the reason this thread gets to so many folks is that most people dont want to make money by "taking advantage of people", so when it's pointed out that maybe that's what they're doing, it's a natural human reaction to go ape**** trying to find anyway for that not to be the case. "if only you knew all the context, you would understand", "you need to have done {xyz} to have a clue", "capitalism", etc. are all trying to justify behaviors that folks know that, if they arent immoral (and to be clear, such a simple take is not correct), are in some sort of grey area. 

The folks who really dont care at all wouldnt even take the time to be offended by this thread.

On the other hand, people really do need to understand that no one owes them affirmation. 

And this, frankly, is the core of my statement that if you need a wall of text to justify what you're doing, you're in the wrong business.


----------



## juice

tcmx3 said:


> And this, frankly, is the core of my statement that if you need a wall of text to justify what you're doing, you're in the wrong business.


Posted under a wall of text...


----------



## tcmx3

juice said:


> Posted under a wall of text...



im surprised that counts as a wall I bet a dingo could hop clean over it


----------



## big_adventure

tcmx3 said:


> im surprised that counts as a wall I bet a dingo could hop clean over it



Before or after it ate someone's baby?


----------



## mise_en_place

big_adventure said:


> Before or after it ate someone's baby?



If the dingo has just eaten, I imagine its ability to clear a wall would be slightly diminished. 

I love this thread. Let's keep it going. 

Death to all flippers! Pick a side! 
☠☠☠


----------



## juice

Dingoes are much maligned. They're basically just wild dogs that eat babies, is all.


----------



## captaincaed

A Katofusa owner (c. 2013) takes aim at the next unsuspecting generation of suckers, and their mad stacks. (2021, colorized).


----------



## M1k3

captaincaed said:


> A Katofusa owner (c. 2013) takes aim at the next unsuspecting generation of suckers, and their mad stacks. (2021, colorized).
> View attachment 130317


Pogs?


----------



## captaincaed

Pogs. Childhood feels.


----------



## soigne_west

Pogs were the sh!t.


----------



## cotedupy

I have a 'business' that involves making custom knife handles. Usually on new blades, but occasionally on older knives that I buy and refurbish. Sometimes I add a bit on for the refurb, sometimes not, kinda depending on how long it takes. On many things I sell the material cost of things other than the blade, is zero, excluding tools and sandpaper/belts.

Basic restoration of an old knife is something that pretty much anyone can do after watching a youtube video or two, but it's not necessarily something they might want to. I do not do elaborate sanding progressions on steel for fun in my spare time. That's what I do - what I sell has been materially affected by restoring it, making custom handles &c.

But someone may also be disinclined to spend hours on the internet trying to source a particular knife. Maybe they're a lawyer and their hourly billing rate far exceeds the saving that might be made if they do find it, or somesuch. The concept of adding value to something through labour (however small) that does not materially affect the product is a _completely central tenet_ of almost all financial systems in the world. I'd guess that every single person here lives in a country whose economy would completely collapse without it. It is also obviously a fundamental concept in almost every tax system you care to mention, and recognised even in the nomenclature; 'Goods and Services Tax', 'Value Added Tax' &c.

And if you think that a particular value add is egregious, that's because you're meant to. And in markets that run the risk of you not being able to, there's monopoly legislation and regulation to ensure you can. But that doesn't detract from the fact that 'Flipping' as it seems to be defined here is not just not bad... it's actively good. And every bit as important as a thread like this where people can discuss it.

p.s. Pogs were GREAT!!!


----------



## Matus

Flippers don't add any value economically speaking, they are not vendors. And if they do it often enough, they may get in troubles with local laws, because in very most cases they would be expected to either register a business or at least add the revenue from the sales to their tax declarations. Then there is the grey zone and apparently each of us sees a differently sized gray zone with different gray tones. That is why this tread flourishes.


----------



## big_adventure

juice said:


> Dingoes are much maligned. They're basically just wild dogs that eat babies, is all.



It's all horribly unfair.

To be fair, if they'd just eaten the emus a hundred years ago like you'd expect them to, there would have been no need for the funniest military intervention in modern history.

Click here, you will thank me.


----------



## BillHanna

Better fences make better neighbors?


----------



## captaincaed

Matus said:


> Then there is the grey zone and apparently each of us sees a differently sized gray zone with different gray tones.


I mean, at LEAST fifty, right?


----------



## BillHanna

captaincaed said:


> I mean, at LEAST fifty, right?


BOOOOOOOOOOO!!

""


----------



## cotedupy

Matus said:


> Flippers don't add any value economically speaking, they are not vendors. And if they do it often enough, they may get in troubles with local laws, because in very most cases they would be expected to either register a business or at least add the revenue from the sales to their tax declarations. Then there is the grey zone and apparently each of us sees a differently sized gray zone with different gray tones. That is why this tread flourishes.



Exactly! The value add is _not_ material, but it's still a value add. Even if that is simply the minimal time it takes to buy something and sell it at a higher price. And indeed if they make enough money from doing so over a sustained period of time to break over the income tax or vat/gst threshold in their particular jurisdiction, then they would be obliged to pay tax on it.


----------



## Matus

Buying something and then selling it at higher price to the same market just stripping the warranty and return policy is not adding value. It is decreasing it. If a person A wanted to buy something that person B was faster to click on and then person B sells the item to the person A for more then they removed part of the value. That is hopefully pretty obvious.


----------



## tgfencer

It’s oddly comforting to know that I could leave the forum tomorrow for ten years and come back to find this thread still alive and thriving, like an immortal gerbil on a wheel.


----------



## big_adventure

tgfencer said:


> It’s oddly comforting to know that I could leave the forum tomorrow for ten years and come back to find this thread still alive and thriving, like an immortal gerbil on a wheel.



It would be kind of cool to have an immortal gerbil on a wheel.


----------



## Barmoley

Matus said:


> Buying something and then selling it at higher price to the same market just stripping the warranty and return policy is not adding value. It is decreasing it. If a person A wanted to buy something that person B was faster to click on and then person B sells the item to the person A for more then they removed part of the value. That is hopefully pretty obvious.



Warranty and return policy don't have to be stripped, most custom makers will still take care of their knives short of obvious abuse, good vendors too, but good points regardless. Flippers work as virtual brakes they move products from people with more time to people with more money. Some people just don't have time or desire to compete in click olympics for popular knives and are perfectly fine to pay more for them. Makers could just increase prices, which would be more efficient, but then people with less money and more time would not be able to get these. Alternatively, people with more money could post WTB threads, offering prices higher than retail, but this would technically still make sellers flippers, except that the optics would be better, since flipping was not the intent, just an unexpected opportunity.

Regardless of how we feel about flippers, isn't there something fundamentally wrong when pretty expensive knives are gone in seconds? Shouldn't makers of such knives either increase prices, which customers don't want or employ some other distribution mechanism like what bloodroot is doing? Until then flippers will flip.

Now, how do we get these immortal gerbils on wheels?


----------



## daveb

Barmoley said:


> Now, how do we get these immortal gerbils on wheels?



Ali Express carries Gerbils and Gerbil Lite (hamsters, looks like) There's a warranty on the wheel, but alas, not one on the immortal gerbil.


----------



## tcmx3

Barmoley said:


> Warranty and return policy don't have to be stripped, most custom makers will still take care of their knives short of obvious abuse, good vendors too, but good points regardless. Flippers work as virtual brakes they move products from people with more time to people with more money. Some people just don't have time or desire to compete in click olympics for popular knives and are perfectly fine to pay more for them. Makers could just increase prices, which would be more efficient, but then people with less money and more time would not be able to get these. Alternatively, people with more money could post WTB threads, offering prices higher than retail, but this would technically still make sellers flippers, except that the optics would be better, since flipping was not the intent, just an unexpected opportunity.
> 
> *Regardless of how we feel about flippers, isn't there something fundamentally wrong when pretty expensive knives are gone in seconds? Shouldn't makers of such knives either increase prices, which customers don't want or employ some other distribution mechanism like what bloodroot is doing?* Until then flippers will flip.
> 
> Now, how do we get these immortal gerbils on wheels?



yes and yes

IMO

I prefer signups with an RNG and Id also like to see the maker get more of the increased price of their product.


----------



## Jovidah

I'm with Matus; it's really hard to talk about added value when people are basically just taking advantage of scarcity by taking stuff off the market only to reintroduce it at a higher price. It doesn't increase availability, and mostly not the ease of finding it either. All it does is increase price. 
The closer analogue to that is profiteering, usually seen only in times of calamity, where people abuse extraordinary conditions to turn a profit on basic goods (for example the hoarding and reselling of masks during early COVID days comes to mind). It's just a lot less problematic here since the knives it happens to are for all practical purposes a luxury good. 

General 'free market' principles are hard to apply here since it's not trivial to increase supply of handmade items requiring significant skill to adjust to rising demands. You can't just add another factory line like you can with mass-manufacturered machine made stuff. In most other sectors you'd see supply pick up, but it seems like any increase in demand outstrips the increase in supply here. It doesn't help that there's always plenty of people with more money than sense willing to basically pay whatever price is asked.


----------



## Jville

BillHanna said:


> BOOOOOOOOOOO!!
> 
> ""



Can you repost this video anytime people are posting pro flipping. That would be perfect. Boooooooooooooo liar , flippers.


----------



## Midsummer

Frankly flipping as we know it is repugnant; but it is a necessary evil in capital markets. Regulation may improve things, but inevitably regulations will become political tools in class warfare and nothing efficient. Regulation is the slippery slope to hell.


----------



## Jville

Midsummer said:


> Frankly flipping as we know it is repugnant; but it is a necessary evil in capital markets. Regulation may improve things, but inevitably regulations will become political tools in class warfare and nothing efficient. Regulation is the slippery slope to hell.


I don’t think the vast majority of anti flippers are trying to legislate out flipping. They just want to be able to say Boooooo, flippers publicly while they are trying to do their dirty deeds.


----------



## cotedupy

Matus said:


> Buying something and then selling it at higher price to the same market just stripping the warranty and return policy is not adding value. It is decreasing it. If a person A wanted to buy something that person B was faster to click on and then person B sells the item to the person A for more then they removed part of the value. That is hopefully pretty obvious.



I'm don't think I'm disagreeing with you there. I'm perhaps just using the term 'added value' in a different economical sense, to do with Labour Theory. But it is absolutely contingent on you / 'the consumer' being able to decide whether for them that value is 'worth it', or even as may be the case in some instances (as you point out), actually decreases the desirability of the product for many. Which is what allows free markets to self-regulate in many ways.

And FWIW - it's why I think the way you manage things here is absolutely spot on. I.e. Not permitting comments on individual sales posts, but allowing discussion of it elsewhere. Even down to small details like requesting that prices of sold items remain on the original posts, to give further information of what might be considered 'normal' market value to the consumer in the future.


----------



## M1k3

Bbboooooooo!!!!!! Liar!!


----------



## big_adventure

daveb said:


> Ali Express carries Gerbils and Gerbil Lite (hamsters, looks like) There's a warranty on the wheel, but alas, not one on the immortal gerbil.



I wouldn't buy an immortal gerbil without a significant warranty. Gerbil wabi-sabi would not be pretty.


----------



## Barmoley

Flipping always triggers an emotional response, but if you look at it without emotions it is not like profiteering at all. There is a huge difference between necessities and luxury items which all these knives are, every single one of them. So even though we don't like it these are not the same. Flipping is a problem of incorrect pricing and more of a buyer problem, without a buyer there is no flip. To say that these buyers have more money than sense is incorrect and somewhat hypocritical since to 99.9% of the population we are these people. We spend a lot on very expensive knives, so to most we clearly have more money than sense since anything that can be done with these knives can be done with knives that cost 10 times less. Compared to this a person willing to pay 20% over what we decided is reasonable is nothing. In addition we buy many knives of the same type, how many gyutos does one home cook need one or two, how many does a pro need? So yes flippers suck, but ultimately they are a blip in this market. All collector markets are like this some people like the hunt and finding deals others just want to come in and throw money at the problem neither one is right or wrong into itself. As far as free like market not working in this situation, that's not entirely true. If you compare how many western makers make kitchen knives today vs 10 years ago, you'll see that there are a lot more. We also have more choices of Japanese makers. Demand has also increased and maybe quicker than supply, but you can't say that markets don't work. If you take a very narrow view and say that a single maker can't drastically increase output then that would be true, but many makers make knives that are similar enough that they could be substituted for each other. To me I’d rather people bought knives here and sold them here instead of buying them here and selling them somewhere else because they don’t want the ridicule.


----------



## M1k3

Bbbbooooo


----------



## Jville

Bbbooooo, flippers…. Bbbooooo, flip somewhere else.


----------



## DarKHarlequiN

If one considers desirable knife flipping to be endemic spend a little while in Rolex World


----------



## big_adventure

DarKHarlequiN said:


> If one considers desirable knife flipping to be endemic spend a little while in Rolex World



Sounds like the worst Disney idea ever.


----------



## captaincaed

Concert tickets are another flipped item. And far more than knives. Interesting take from the London School. 
Edit : link to a paper, works despite looking strange. 


An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie



I don't think this is the behavior we really see.

"Secondary Market: Brokers and Scalpers

Ticket resale is ubiquitous. The auction website eBay, for example, has a category dedicated to event tickets and conducts thousands of ticket auctions. Across all listings, eBay estimates that it will sell $150 million worth of tickets in 2002. Although this figure may seem high, it represents only about 1 percent of total ticket sales based on the Forester Research estimate. On a given day (in August 2002), more than 22,000 tickets were for sale on eBay, with about 9,000 for concerts alone, and auction prices above $1,000 were not uncommon. Although some of the exchanges in the secondary market are driven by early buyers who genuinely intended to attend the event at the time of purchase and changed their mind, the majority of exchanges are initiated by professional brokers who buy tickets early with the intent of reselling them at a profit."


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Not all flippers are bad...


----------



## big_adventure

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Not all flippers are bad...




I don't know Ms. Ohashi but she's my best friend anyway.


----------



## M1k3

M1k3 said:


> Bbbbooooo


Lliiiaarr!!


----------



## BillHanna

M1k3 said:


> Lliiiaarr!!


Go be a flipper somewhere else


----------



## M1k3

Bbbbooooo!! Liar!


----------



## xxxclx

Just leaving these here as a reference


----------



## M1k3

xxxclx said:


> View attachment 130447
> 
> 
> 
> Just leaving these here as a reference


Horse carriage horse


----------



## BillHanna

M1k3 said:


> Horse carriage horse


dammit, Mike. I was wondering when would be a good moment.


----------



## M1k3

BillHanna said:


> dammit, Mike. I was wondering when would be a good moment.


Bbbbooooo!!! Liar!!

P.S. The real MVP is the little girl yelling "Shut up!"


----------



## juice

WTAF is an immoral gerbil anyway? Is that the one that had to be removed in the emergency room?


----------



## WiriWiri

juice said:


> WTAF is an immoral gerbil anyway? Is that the one that had to be removed in the emergency room?



Australians really do use the same language, but differently it seems


Still, any fule knows gerbils ain’t immoral, Guinea pigs are obvs the twisted perverts in that furry family


----------



## Jville

M1k3 said:


> Bbbbooooo!!! Liar!!
> 
> P.S. The real MVP is the little girl yelling "Shut up!"



I love the way he quiets down a little for a bit. And let’s him start to say a couple words and then ka-bang “bbbooooooo”.


----------



## FishmanDE

Over/under:

Did someone actually buy that Jiro?


----------



## Jville

Yup, looks like it. Flipper strikes again. He had to lower his price a little, but still $1150, ouch!!


----------



## Corradobrit1

Jville said:


> Yup, looks like it. Flipper strikes again. He had to lower his price a little, but still $1150, ouch!!


Not necessarily what was actually paid.


----------



## M1k3

FishmanDE said:


> Over/under:
> 
> Did someone actually buy that Jiro?


Bbbbooooo!!! Liar!!


----------



## M1k3

Jville said:


> Yup, looks like it. Flipper strikes again. He had to lower his price a little, but still $1150, ouch!!


Bbbbooooo!!


Corradobrit1 said:


> Not necessarily what was actually paid.


Liar!!


----------



## Jville

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not necessarily what was actually paid.


Fair point… insider info?


----------



## TJ Watson

WiriWiri said:


> {snip!}
> 
> Still, any fule knows gerbils ain’t immoral, Guinea pigs are obvs the twisted perverts in that furry family



Metaphoric Gerbils (and Guinea Pigs) occupy roughly the same Psycho-ecological niche as Sedate Lions and Immortal Porpoises - e.g..:

DO NOT CROSS THEM!

Put yer knives away, we'll just ride off on the same shaggy dog that brought us...


----------



## Jville

Elliot said:


> I have refrained (until now), but this knife just speaks to what was being talked about in the Flipper Alert thread.
> Could be wrong, but I think this knife was sourced by OP through a retailer. That retailer acquired it through one of our fellow collectors. So . . . not to sound like I am necessarily siding with anyone here, but, the price keeps going up as it changes hands over and over and he may not actually be making much cash at all on this thing.
> 
> An example: (Pre-owned) Raquin 320mm “meat killer”
> If someone buys that knife for that price and then decides to sell it, we will all certainly be cautious of price... understandably.
> 
> Again, I could be wrong, but that's my understanding of what has transpired here and why the pricing is so far from what Bryan charged.


So I believe in this thread it was discussed that the Raquin you are referring too was actually sold to Crocker Cutlery by the OP of the thread. He also said concerning the OP that he would not deal with him in any manner, even sell to him. Also if there is a paper trail from knife that causes you to increase a price dramatically then you could just be open about it and include it in your ad to justify your price, instead of calling people  for not blindly accepting the ridiculously comical price. Even the way the ad is worded is marketing fluff. “My favorite knife from Bryan… that used to slice meat once” whatever.


----------



## tostadas

Jville said:


> So I believe in this thread it was discussed that the Raquin you are referring too was actually sold to Crocker Cutlery by the OP of the thread. He also said concerning the OP that he would not deal with him in any manner, even sell to him. Also if there is a paper trail from knife that causes you to increase a price dramatically then you could just be open about it and include it in your ad to justify your price, instead of calling people  for not blindly accepting the ridiculously comical price. Even the way the ad is worded is marketing fluff. “My favorite knife from Bryan… that used to slice meat once” whatever.


Yea I'd consider it a huge red flag when a retailer says that they are no longer willing to take someone's money.


----------



## timebard

@Mrchainsaw - pulling your discussion from the BST thread (which I imagine is going to have a lot of comments deleted when mods wake up) over here. You can read this way too long thread for context on the ongoing drama over flipping in various contexts.

I think others covered searching BST for prices, but what determines prices? MSRPs provide a baseline but condition, rarity, hype, cutting performance, steel types, finish, and handle fanciness all play into it. The very expensive knives on BST (say $1k and up) are mostly western customs, sanmai knives from the most highly regarded Japanese makers (Shig, Kato, Hinoura River Jump, nice Denkas), or honyaki. Some knives have risen in value by a lot over the years--if you bought a Kato 5 years ago the market price is a lot higher than what you paid. How that interacts with appropriate BST pricing is... complicated.

There are $200-300 knives that many people regard as better functional knives than many (not all) priced much higher, but also some combinations of features are difficult to find outside of high end makers. Whether those are worth it are in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## M1k3




----------



## Mrchainsaw

timebard said:


> @Mrchainsaw - pulling your discussion from the BST thread (which I imagine is going to have a lot of comments deleted when mods wake up) over here. You can read this way too long thread for context on the ongoing drama over flipping in various contexts.
> 
> I think others covered searching BST for prices, but what determines prices? MSRPs provide a baseline but condition, rarity, hype, cutting performance, steel types, finish, and handle fanciness all play into it. The very expensive knives on BST (say $1k and up) are mostly western customs, sanmai knives from the most highly regarded Japanese makers (Shig, Kato, Hinoura River Jump, nice Denkas), or honyaki. Some knives have risen in value by a lot over the years--if you bought a Kato 5 years ago the market price is a lot higher than what you paid. How that interacts with appropriate BST pricing is... complicated.
> 
> There are $200-300 knives that many people regard as better functional knives than many (not all) priced much higher, but also some combinations of features are difficult to find outside of high end makers. Whether those are worth it are in the eye of the beholder.


Thanks. I’m just trying to learn the etiquette and the community. I guess at the risk of being shot (or in this community stabbed) I can see both sides. I like the idea of helping others and paying it forward but I can also understand if some people have something that appreciates in value as you mentioned with the koto, wanting to perhaps turn a profit to make room to buy something new. And who is to say that person won’t pay it forward down the road if they get a little extra money now from a willing buyer? I don’t know other peoples situations so far be it from me to sit in judgment on a sale or purchase of a knife. If I told people what I paid for my “collector quality knife” I posted pics of when I bought on another thread here, people probably say I overpaid and I’m an idiot. But I don’t care because at the time I bought it I was fortunate enough to have the funds and get the Kamon shichi mai knife of my dreams. So maybe this guy is trying to sell something he can make a profit on and will some day sell another knife to a person for far less money and pay it forward in ways we don’t yet know. Or maybe he’s greedy. Or maybe he’s broke and needs to pay bills. I don’t know. So I don’t comment or judge. So my rambling aside, I appreciate the etiquette and education from all but I equally disdain the judgment from all. To all in all facets of life I simply say “Be more kind.” That’s my final thought. I’ll sit down now and as I said I appreciate the education.


----------



## Midsummer

Or maybe, he loves it so much that he fixes a super high price (in the eyes of the mob) to let it go. This way, He lets others know that he loves the knife so dearly he would only part with it at that great price. 

The knife to him is precious. 

But, he has his breakpoint. A point where he would part with his precious; and he wants everyone to know where that point is. 

Is that so bad? 

The fool is the one who pays the price; but does not feel the value.


----------



## ian

Mrchainsaw said:


> Thanks. I’m just trying to learn the etiquette and the community. I guess at the risk of being shot (or in this community stabbed) I can see both sides. I like the idea of helping others and paying it forward but I can also understand if some people have something that appreciates in value as you mentioned with the koto, wanting to perhaps turn a profit to make room to buy something new. And who is to say that person won’t pay it forward down the road if they get a little extra money now from a willing buyer? I don’t know other peoples situations so far be it from me to sit in judgment on a sale or purchase of a knife. If I told people what I paid for my “collector quality knife” I posted pics of when I bought on another thread here, people probably say I overpaid and I’m an idiot. But I don’t care because at the time I bought it I was fortunate enough to have the funds and get the Kamon shichi mai knife of my dreams. So maybe this guy is trying to sell something he can make a profit on and will some day sell another knife to a person for far less money and pay it forward in ways we don’t yet know. Or maybe he’s greedy. Or maybe he’s broke and needs to pay bills. I don’t know. So I don’t comment or judge. So my rambling aside, I appreciate the etiquette and education from all but I equally disdain the judgment from all. To all in all facets of life I simply say “Be more kind.” That’s my final thought. I’ll sit down now and as I said I appreciate the education.



I really appreciate your thoughtfulness here! Fwiw, I think one of the reasons Sparten is getting so much blowback is that he’s being a jerk about it in his attitude in the thread, in his interactions with the moderators, and in PMs with multiple people. (See also the references to Crocker’s negative interactions with him earlier in this thread.) If he was listing his knife for a high price, but he approached it with the same humility you’re displaying, people would probably say “that’s a high price“ and move on.


----------



## BillHanna

Sweet mother of mercy. If the opinions of others matter so little, shut the fuxk up and make your money.


----------



## M1k3

BillHanna said:


> Sweet mother of mercy. If the opinions of others matter so little, shut the fuxk up and make your money.


It's like the "Bbbbooooo!! Liar!" guy without the funniness.


----------



## FishmanDE

How did we think this was going to play out after the kids reopened it ?? Lol. I do feel really bad for the new members who had to witness this whole debacle, but sadly, this is a very accurate example of how this forum is on a lot of levels.

_*this opinion is unwarranted and solely mine. It is not meant to reflect the opinion of any other individual or group*_


----------



## HumbleHomeCook




----------



## Pointless1

Every forum has a dogpile at some point. Usually it’s someone who breaks a tribal tradition and is a tool about it. I’m pretty new here and I’m not offended or distraught. It’s how society polices itself. Hell this isn’t anywhere near the Lord of the Flies that some seem to think it is.


----------



## Corradobrit1




----------



## M1k3

Bbbbooooo!! Liar!


----------



## juice

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not necessarily what was actually paid.


Or that it was actually sold...


----------



## Corradobrit1

juice said:


> Or that it was actually sold...


ooooh, I see what you did there.....


----------



## McMan

juice said:


> Or that it was actually sold...


I've often wondered this too... As a way to set the market by falsifying sales history. Then re-sell later with a different account.


----------



## ian

Sparten008?


----------



## McMan

ian said:


> Sparten008?


Now bridging the flipper and the cat thread...


----------



## M1k3

ian said:


> Sparten008?


Persian008?


----------



## xxxclx

McMan said:


> Now bridging the flipper and the cat thread...
> View attachment 130903




Now, Come, come, Mr. Bond. You disappoint me. You get as much fulfillment out of flipping as I do


----------



## M1k3

Avoid answering the question.... Yeah, cut stuff? Uh-huh. But no 'yes' or 'no' 

Bbbbooooo!! Liar!


----------



## tostadas

I dont get trying to hide the obvious stuff. I think it's likely he's also hiding a lot more less obvious stuff.


----------



## DarKHarlequiN

M1k3 said:


> Bbbbooooo!! Liar!




Do you consider posting this pavlovian repetitive drivel to be remotely amusing...for the several hundredth time


----------



## WiriWiri

Of all the things to take objection to on this thread, picking up on a little bit of mock dramatic booing seems a little strange. I believe you’re British - the pantomime thing should make sense to you

To be fair - and sorry @M1k3 - it wasn’t really working for me either, We all need a flipping villain to materialise and it’ll drop into place. I’ll probably join the chorus of powerless booing then too.



DarKHarlequiN said:


> Do you consider posting this pavlovian repetitive drivel to be remotely amusing...for the several hundredth time



Actually, reading that again, Bbbooo to you. In the absence of a proper scoundrel, your mention of pavlovian drivel seems to brought out some kind of compulsive, erm Pavlovian reaction in me. Boo hiss (etc). 

Look what you’ve both done to me, you barstewards.


----------



## Corradobrit1




----------



## Pointless1

DarKHarlequiN said:


> Do you consider posting this pavlovian repetitive drivel to be remotely amusing...for the several hundredth time



Bbbbooooo!! Liar!

Sorry, this thread causes puerile Pavlovian drivel.


----------



## Jville

DarKHarlequiN said:


> Do you consider posting this pavlovian repetitive drivel to be remotely amusing...for the several hundredth time


----------



## Carl Kotte

Jville said:


> View attachment 130937


Authority!!!


----------



## M1k3

DarKHarlequiN said:


> Do you consider posting this pavlovian repetitive drivel to be remotely amusing...for the several hundredth time


Sometimes.


----------



## DarKHarlequiN

Now Kicking back in the garden taking in a few rays and sipping Long Island Iced Tea’s... life could be worse...have a pleasant evening / day all


----------



## daveb

You gonna get yourself drunk and get into your own knickers?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Bbbbooooo!! Liar!


----------



## juice

DarKHarlequiN said:


> Do you consider posting this pavlovian repetitive drivel to be remotely amusing...for the several hundredth time


BOOO! LIAR!!


----------



## DarKHarlequiN

juice said:


> BOOO! LIAR!!




See....That’s kinds where I was going with this, Still...Knock yourself out aye fella


----------



## M1k3

Bbbbooooo!!


----------



## BillHanna

Go be high brow somewhere else. booooooooo.


----------



## M1k3

BillHanna said:


> Go be high brow somewhere else. booooooooo. liiaarr.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

DarKHarlequiN said:


> * sipping *Long Island Iced *Tea’s*
> 
> View attachment 130954


oh look the brit's alcoholic beverage of choice also has tea 
something something repetitive


----------



## M1k3

Nassau Island Iced Tea?


----------



## hendrix

From Bryan :


----------



## ian

@bryan03 is a genius. ❤

Although he really should charge a supplemental fee for the pre-flipping service.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

I’m counting on Bryan and other makers increasing their price to the fair market value so that I can actually get a chance to buy their knives. I don’t like the type of flippers who take advantage of people’s kindness (buy low on BST just to sell high), but I think there’s nothing wrong with the other type of flippers who manage to buy rare stuff at original price and sell for high market price. That’s how the market works. The huge gap between the original price and market price will always encourage flipping until it’s not enough for the effort and cost. And I even think this type of flippers do add value because they actually make the knife available. If there is a flipper selling Kaiju for 1.2k (double the original price) I’m sure there will be buyers appreciating and thanking him for making access to Kaiju possible.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I’m counting on Bryan and other makers increasing their price to the fair market value so that I can actually get a chance to buy their knives. I don’t like the type of flippers who take advantage of people’s kindness (buy low on BST just to sell high), but I think there’s nothing wrong with the other type of flippers who manage to buy rare stuff at original price and sell for high market price. That’s how the market works. The huge gap between the original price and market price will always encourage flipping until it’s not enough for the effort and cost. And I even think this type of flippers do add value because they actually make the knife available. If there is a flipper selling Kaiju for 1.2k (double the original price) I’m sure there will be buyers appreciating and thanking him for making access to Kaiju possible.


for a moment i thought I misclicked on the unpopular opinions thread lol


----------



## applepieforbreakfast

What did Gen 1 Production Kamon's originally sell for?


----------



## Giovanny Torres

applepieforbreakfast said:


> What did Gen 1 Production Kamon's originally sell for?


This is second generation, but I guess close to that?


----------



## M1k3

applepieforbreakfast said:


> What did Gen 1 Production Kamon's originally sell for?


Around 1/4th to 1/3rd of that price.


----------



## JayS20

Yeah Gen 1 was pretty much the same to Gen 2 pricewise, around 260€(+Vat)+ shipping.
I think the Gen 2 knives are a bit better than Gen 1. Imo one of the best price performance ratios you usually get in the knife world. Sold mine because I also got another custom Kamon and didn't like that it was rather reactive, though not super much and the handle collected dirt.
Imo Custom>Gen2>Gen1.
Price is hilarious and sad at the same time.


----------



## McMan

Yup.
The whole idea of Kamon's "production" line was to make them affordable so that people could try his work without plunking/waiting for a custom--price/performance ratio is a nice way to put it... 
I put a WTB up not long ago and got multiple offers sub-$400.


----------



## Migraine

M1k3 said:


> Around 1/4th to 1/3rd of that price.



That price is more than I paid for a full custom from Ben. I hope anyone looking at that thread does their research...


----------



## tostadas

That guy pretty much said he's a flipper and doesn't care what you think, because he's not doing anything against the forum rules. And will continue stretching the truth, to put it nicely. I personally don't trust a single thing he says, which makes things ez for me. No extra thinking needed, simply ignore.


----------



## tcmx3

tostadas said:


> That guy pretty much said he's a flipper and doesn't care what you think, because he's not doing anything against the forum rules. And will continue stretching the truth, to put it nicely. I personally don't trust a single thing he says, which makes things ez for me. No extra thinking needed, simply ignore.



technically not against the rules, the best kind of not against the rules.


----------



## crockerculinary

Yeah dudes garbage and you can’t trust any of his used car salesman style speak. Sad that it looks like he’s got a few folks that might fall for it. You should hear the stories I’ve heard about him from a BUNCH of different makers. Grade A POS.


----------



## Jville

tostadas said:


> That guy pretty much said he's a flipper and doesn't care what you think, because he's not doing anything against the forum rules. And will continue stretching the truth, to put it nicely. I personally don't trust a single thing he says, which makes things ez for me. No extra thinking needed, simply ignore.


How did I know it would be that guy, before I even saw the ad. That guy should get complete crickets or a flood of GLWS! with massive  emojis. Geeze!


----------



## TSF415

I like story time


----------



## FishmanDE

To play devils avocado; while this is most certainly over priced, Idt you could buy a kamon now if you tried (which I have). Prices keep going up across the board for knives in general, and while I’m not defending the BS sales, on kamon specifically, the demand is def there to drive up price.


----------



## TSF415

FishmanDE said:


> To play devils avocado; while this is most certainly over priced, Idt you could buy a kamon now if you tried (which I have). Prices keep going up across the board for knives in general, and while I’m not defending the BS sales, on kamon specifically, the demand is def there to drive up price.



yea like maybe somewhere between $350-$400


----------



## FishmanDE

Again, not defending a known flipper, but show me where you can buy a kamon for that price anywhere? I’ll buy a $400 kamon right now. In reality, man is hot and prices have soared. This is overpriced, no doubt, but Idt he’s reaching as bad as people are making it out to be


----------



## FishmanDE

On this specific post. I also think his 9nine post wasn’t too over the top either. Nor his raquin from earlier today.


----------



## TSF415

FishmanDE said:


> Again, not defending a known flipper, but show me where you can buy a kamon for that price anywhere? I’ll buy a $400 kamon right now. In reality, man is hot and prices have soared. This is overpriced, no doubt, but Idt he’s reaching as bad as people are making it out to be



put up an wtb ad for Kamon production knife


----------



## McMan

FishmanDE said:


> Again, not defending a known flipper, but show me where you can buy a kamon for that price anywhere? I’ll buy a $400 kamon right now. In reality, man is hot and prices have soared. This is overpriced, no doubt, but Idt he’s reaching as bad as people are making it out to be


BST worked for me.


----------



## FishmanDE

TSF415 said:


> put up an wtb ad for Kamon production knife



I’ve had one, granted it hasn’t been bumped for a grip, but the posts are there


----------



## FishmanDE

I’m just saying, the guy is known to be sus, but it seems he’s been more reasonable of late. Maybe he’s making an effort  Once a flip doesn’t make a lifer. All I’m trying to articulate


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

I think the raquin and catchside price is not that out of line. I bought the raquin yea I’m weak I know but he has made me happy today.

For the Kamon he’s just testing/making the market because there aren’t a lot Kamon on BST. If any one of you sell a Production Kamon for $400 he’d have of course listed a lower price.


----------



## Mrchainsaw

Do as I say not as I do….
Live and let Live….
Do unto others…
It’s a Capitalist Society and there’s a sucker born every minute…
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder…
It’s a free world….

So many mottos to choose from and to live by. Each person has to walk their own path. Some may think it’s wrong to “take advantage of a situation”. Others may think “I have a shot at a knife people have to wait years to get.”

I’ve bought from CrockerCutlery. I’ve bought from Abe at Eatingtools. I’ve bought from others here, but you know what? Each situation was the exact same—someone had something I wanted for sale. The rest was up to me.

So many mottos to live by but I choose to live by two: 1) don’t judge others, and 2) be more kind.


----------



## ian

Mrchainsaw said:


> Do as I say not as I do….
> Live and let Live….
> Do unto others…
> It’s a Capitalist Society and there’s a sucker born every minute…
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder…
> It’s a free world….
> 
> So many mottos to choose from and to live by. Each person has to walk their own path. Some may think it’s wrong to “take advantage of a situation”. Others may think “I have a shot at a knife people have to wait years to get.”
> 
> I’ve bought from CrockerCutlery. I’ve bought from Abe at Eatingtools. I’ve bought from others here, but you know what? Each situation was the exact same—someone had something I wanted for sale. The rest was up to me.
> 
> So many mottos to live by but I choose to live by two: 1) don’t judge others, and 2) be more kind.



I mean, it’s great not to judge people, and it sounds very high minded and all to say this, but I think one’s response to the current situation depends on your personal conception of what the KKF community is. Say someone came to your house for dinner, and said “hey, by the way, I have this really nice Rolex entry level watch! Do you want it? I really like it, so I’ll ask you to pay what it’s worth to me, which is about 3-4 times what I bought it for.” Sure, you’re not obligated to buy it, but it’s certainly within your rights to tell the guy he’s an a**hole, or to gripe to your spouse about him.


----------



## daveb

It ain't flipped until it's sold.

Funny how nothing ever seems to sell though.....


----------



## Delat

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I think the raquin and catchside price is not that out of line. I bought the raquin yea I’m weak I know but he has made me happy today.
> 
> For the Kamon he’s just testing/making the market because there aren’t a lot Kamon on BST. If any one of you sell a Production Kamon for $400 he’d have of course listed a lower price.



Either that or he’d buy it for $400 and relist at $1050 because he loves it so much only that amount could bring him to part with it.


----------



## TSF415

Also says same performance and legendary heat treat. It’s stock removal and not forged like his usual knives which leaves little to no distal taper so I doubt performance is the exact same. And it’s not the same steel he uses on his other knives so although I’m sure the heat treat it great, it would be hard to label it legendary. A great knife but sounds like he’s trying to sell it off as the same as kamon’s much more expensive knives.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

Delat said:


> Either that or he’d buy it for $400 and relist at $1050 because he loves it so much only that amount could bring him to part with it.


I’m not going to argue with you or anyone here. I’ve delt with some of you guys who complain here, so I know you guys truly have good heart and I understand where the frustration comes from. All I’m saying is not all of his prices are out of line and the super high Kamon price is partly due to the lack of market.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Mrchainsaw said:


> Do as I say not as I do….
> Live and let Live….
> Do unto others…
> It’s a Capitalist Society and there’s a sucker born every minute…
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder…
> It’s a free world….
> 
> So many mottos to choose from and to live by. Each person has to walk their own path. Some may think it’s wrong to “take advantage of a situation”. Others may think “I have a shot at a knife people have to wait years to get.”
> 
> I’ve bought from CrockerCutlery. I’ve bought from Abe at Eatingtools. I’ve bought from others here, but you know what? Each situation was the exact same—someone had something I wanted for sale. The rest was up to me.
> 
> So many mottos to live by but I choose to live by two: 1) don’t judge others, and 2) be more kind.



Huh...interesting...

I judge the hell out of people and I expect people to judge the hell out of me...

Now, how people spend their money? Well that is all about them. I just hope it's an educated decision. 

I do try to be kind though.


----------



## tostadas

If the seller were honest, then I'd be less annoyed.


----------



## M1k3

daveb said:


> It ain't flipped until it's sold.
> 
> Funny how nothing ever seems to sell though.....


"Fine! I'll raise the price!*




*Discount for cooks"


----------



## Hockey3081

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I’m not going to argue with you or anyone here. I’ve delt with some of you guys who complain here, so I know you guys truly have good heart and I understand where the frustration comes from. All I’m saying is not all of his prices are out of line and the super high Kamon price is partly due to the lack of market.



I posted in the other “not the Raquin suji” thread not realizing this thread had been revived. Yes, KKF and its BST is a free market. One thing I’ve learned is that most people here go out go their way not to screw other people over. Is someone entitled to make a few bucks if the market bears it? Sure. But when you put up a price that is approx 3x the price of the original [new] with a bunch of words and editorial fluff about how it feels but leave out facts like stock removal and the product is produced differently than BK’s usual stuff, you’re basically looking for a sucker.

The fact that the white knight of the thread, JML, quoted me the rules about not posting anything negative related to the price and how this is not the place to save the world from a perceived overpriced knife is laughable at best. If KKF is the community that it purports itself to be, what niche community would be ok with some of its members taking advantage of those who just may not know any better under the guise of free market and capitalism?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Flippers can't flip without flippees.

No buy. No buy.


----------



## Jville

People crack me up talking about how it’s a “free market” here on KKF. If it was truly a free market, you could say “ hey you are full of s/&! and your price is ridiculous” without all this censorship. And that person could say what they wanted and people would buy or not buy. And his price is flipping ridiculous!!!! No buts ands about it.


----------



## spaceconvoy

There is a free market here - you can instantly buy reputation and sell knives starting day one without participating in the forums.

I know that's a different issue and I'm veering off topic, but to me they're related: the idea that this is a trusted community sales board is somewhat fictional.

Caviar Emperor


----------



## Hockey3081

Jville said:


> People crack me up talking about how it’s a “free market” here on KKF. If it was truly a free market, you could say “ hey you are full of s/&! and your price is ridiculous” without all this censorship. And that person could say what they wanted and people would buy or not buy. And his price is flipping ridiculous!!!! No buts ands about it.



You made a point earlier in this thread that was similar and spot on. If someone chooses to sell at a cost that’s on the lower end of perceived value, people can say “wow great price!” all day long. But if you aren’t pooping  and say something that is truthful but doesn’t connote cheer and support, then you have disrupted the harmony and sanctity of the BST.


----------



## applepieforbreakfast

Jville said:


> People crack me up talking about how it’s a “free market” here on KKF. If it was truly a free market, you could say “ hey you are full of s/&! and your price is ridiculous” without all this censorship. And that person could say what they wanted and people would buy or not buy. And his price is flipping ridiculous!!!! No buts ands about it.



This right here!!!

KKF is not a free market and anyone who disagrees should probably sign up for the next rodeo clown seminar.


----------



## Barmoley

The price is ridiculous for this knife, no question about it. Great respect for Ben's work, but the price for this knife is totally insane. Forget free market since that causes knee jerk reactions by many. Why would anyone spend over a grand on a knife without knowing what they are buying? If they do decide to spend this money should we attempt to stop them? Why do we assume that a person willing to spend this much on this knife doesn't know what he is doing? A simple search will let you know what these sold for and when. Should we assume that a potential buyer is clueless and can't do a simple search? Or are we in a position to tell people how to spend their money?

The only way to deal with flippers is not to buy from them.

As far as allowing negative comments in for sale threads, to me they cause more harm than good. It is very easy to destroy a legit sale or someone's reputation by either not actually knowing what one talks about or by being malicious.

Positive comments on the price don't hurt anyone.


----------



## applepieforbreakfast




----------



## Hockey3081

Barmoley said:


> The price is ridiculous for this knife, no question about it. Great respect for Ben's work, but the price for this knife is totally insane. Forget free market since that causes knee jerk reactions by many. Why would anyone spend over a grand on a knife without knowing what they are buying? If they do decide to spend this money should we attempt to stop them? Why do we assume that a person willing to spend this much on this knife doesn't know what he is doing? A simple search will let you know what these sold for and when. Should we assume that a potential buyer is clueless and can't do a simple search? Or are we in a position to tell people how to spend their money?
> 
> The only way to deal with flippers is not to buy from them.
> 
> As far as allowing negative comments in for sale threads, to me they cause more harm than good. It is very easy to destroy a legit sale or someone's reputation by either not actually knowing what one talks about or by being malicious.
> 
> Positive comments on the price don't hurt anyone.



Fair point about not buying from flippers but what’s the line between a flipper and a snake? 

I think there’s enough knowledge here that if someone is wrongfully being a prick in a BST thread (and the no meanie comments rule wasn’t in effect), they would get their lashings and the buyer would essentially be vindicated. JML didn’t tell me that I was an idiot to insinuate the price was ludicrous; he just decided to quote the don’t be a douche rule. 

As far as why would anyone buy a $1000+ knife without knowing what they are buying, the Raquin suji thread running parallel to this had a member say he thought it was a custom. Read the description again as someone who maybe got into knives 6 months ago and tell me you may not assume the same thing from the seller’s wording and the rest of the warm and fuzzies when browsing other threads here. Starting with “This is bloody rough for having the courage of letting go of a Kamon’s blade…” is so hyperbolic and cartoonish but then you throw in how you’ve tried 60+ makers and now the seller seems like a legitimately knowledgeable fellow.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to find a Medal of Honor to bestow upon him for his bravery.


----------



## Jville

So you should pay about 3 times for a knife to have the peace of mind that it’s not a 4K knive that you have to baby. It only cost you $1050 . I think I understand quite clearly.


----------



## Barmoley

Hockey3081 said:


> Fair point about not buying from flippers but what’s the line between a flipper and a snake?
> 
> I think there’s enough knowledge here that if someone is wrongfully being a prick in a BST thread (and the no meanie comments rule wasn’t in effect), they would get their lashings and the buyer would essentially be vindicated. JML didn’t tell me that I was an idiot to insinuate the price was ludicrous; he just decided to quote the don’t be a douche rule.
> 
> As far as why would anyone buy a $1000+ knife without knowing what they are buying, the Raquin suji thread running parallel to this had a member say he thought it was a custom. Read the description again as someone who maybe got into knives 6 months ago and tell me you may not assume the same thing from the seller’s wording and the rest of the warm and fuzzies when browsing other threads here. Starting with “This is bloody rough for having the courage of letting go of a Kamon’s blade…” is so hyperbolic and cartoonish but then you throw in how you’ve tried 60+ makers and now the seller seems like a legitimately knowledgeable fellow.
> 
> Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to find a Medal of Honor to bestow upon him for his bravery.


It’s fine to not like the guy or not like what he wrote or how he did it, but unless he lied about what he is selling the burden is on the buyer. Once again spending a $1k on a knife you thought was a custom without searching just a bit is either lazy or is done on purpose by someone who is ok spending this much on this knife. In either case do we really need to protect these people?


----------



## crockerculinary

Barmoley said:


> It’s fine to not like the guy or not like what he wrote or how he did it, but unless he lied about what he is selling…



He is a lying liar that lies. He sold me a number of knives and claimed their condition was perfect when it was not. He agreed to the terms of a large deal with me and then changed the terms after I paid him and refused to follow through on his agreements. He has ordered very specific and expensive knives from people and then backed out or ghosted makers when it was time to pay for them. He has claimed monetary hardship and tried to change terms when it was time to collect, and then goes on and posts all his new purchases.

I could go on. It would take way too long to communicate the details of my experience with him, and the experience others have communicated to me, but trust me, he lies.

Also in the context of an online sale, I believe lies of omission are absolutely lies. It should be expected that any damage that substantially affects a knifes value be adequately communicated so the buyer knows what they’re getting into. He doesn’t do that, he instead attempts to use flowery language to fill space instead of giving actual information, hoping someone will fall for it. And I guarantee, from experience, he will claim ignorance if called on it. He is not an “honest broker” and I don’t think “oh well, buyer beware and all that!” is the mark of an honest seller. Yes it’s the way of the world, but I think that’s a crappy way to do any level of business.

Also yes, his personality is gross and he is annoying as hell. Sure he’s bought some nice knives, but seriously, [email protected]#% that guy.


----------



## JayS20

There is still something like ethics and morale.
Like @McMan said Ben intended them to be affordable. I had a talk in person with him about a month ago and we also talked about the production knives since someone brought a Gen 1 along. He wanted to produce a bigger batch of affordable knives so more people could try his work but also in his presentation post, he said they are slightly inferior to his custom work. He also did it because he enjoyed the process. He likes the challenge and is very much into process optimitzation. That's why he was also quite excited for the massdrop.
There will also highly likely be a new run of porduction knives with some things tweaked.
I'm glad that a thread like this exists to discuss this topic.


----------



## WiriWiri

Barmoley said:


> It’s fine to not like the guy or not like what he wrote or how he did it, but unless he lied about what he is selling the burden is on the buyer. Once again spending a $1k on a knife you thought was a custom without searching just a bit is either lazy or is done on purpose by someone who is ok spending this much on this knife. In either case do we really need to protect these people?



I’m not sure we need to protect these people, but equally it doesn’t seem advisable to create a marketplace where cogent details about the seller and the market prices are artificially constrained on repeated threat of bans. 

I can appreciate that there have been past problems and that mods want to keep their hands out understandably, but the current fudge is ludicrously stacked towards bad faith operators. It’s a wonder that there aren’t more tbh


----------



## Matus

WW, I get your point, we just don't have any other system that is reasonably opened to 'everyone' and makes a better job at keeping the savages at bay. If we would allow 'all' comments in BST, then in few months those nicer guys would leave KKF for good, because every other BST thread would become a bloodbath and it would become MUCH harder to moderate it, because it would be just '_you guys moderated X, but left Y standing, this is unfair and you are biased_'. 

Threads like this are an attempt to offer a bit of a balance to the situation. It is not perfect, but the best we can reasonably maintain. Please bear with us.

It is a bit like with parliamentarian democracy. Not perfect, but the best we have come up with so far.


----------



## WiriWiri

I can appreciate that Matus - there is no easy answer here and the present fudge largely seems to work most of the time. But in principle I can’t help but be opposed to the basic policy that there can’t be negative comment - this puts a big spoke in one of the central principles of ‘free market’ theory, basically enforcing a form of information asymmetry and stacking the deck in favour of the seller.

I think there should be a little more tolerance of negative comments on BST with that in mind, even if this means tolerating a flood of less than sincere GLWS messages accompanied by rolleye smiles on certain sales threads.


----------



## HSC /// Knives

crockerculinary said:


> He has ordered very specific and expensive knives from people and then backed out or ghosted makers when it was time to pay for them. He has claimed monetary hardship and tried to change terms when it was time to collect, and then goes on and posts all his new purchases.


 indeed he has....


----------



## Dhoff

Well, if it was possible, a system where buyer and seller both acknowledged a buy had taken place/ was about to take place and a possibility to review on both ends would at least warn if a seller or buyer multiple times perform in ill faith.

Likely too hard to program though 

Edit: A more radical suggestion could be banning when such an amount of makers and other members clearly state a person is not doing business in good faith.


----------



## friz

Matus said:


> WW, I get your point, we just don't have any other system that is reasonably opened to 'everyone' and makes a better job at keeping the savages at bay. If we would allow 'all' comments in BST, then in few months those nicer guys would leave KKF for good, because every other BST thread would become a bloodbath and it would become MUCH harder to moderate it, because it would be just '_you guys moderated X, but left Y standing, this is unfair and you are biased_'.
> 
> Threads like this are an attempt to offer a bit of a balance to the situation. It is not perfect, but the best we can reasonably maintain. Please bear with us.
> 
> It is a bit like with parliamentarian democracy. Not perfect, but the best we have come up with so far.


Is there a way of not allow anyone comments on BST? 
The interested people could send a private message.


----------



## Helicon

WiriWiri said:


> I can appreciate that Matus - there is no easy answer here and the present fudge largely seems to work most of the time. But in principle I can’t help but be opposed to the basic policy that there can’t be negative comment - this puts a big spoke in one of the central principles of ‘free market’ theory, basically enforcing a form of information asymmetry and stacking the deck in favour of the seller.
> 
> I think there should be a little more tolerance of negative comments on BST with that in mind, even if this means tolerating a flood of less than sincere GLWS messages accompanied by rolleye smiles on certain sales threads.


Indeed. The current policy prohibits any form of neutral or negative comments and questions, so it would seem only fair that positive and supportive comments should be banned, as well. At the moment there's nothing to stop one member from acting as a shill for another, for example. The information asymmetry on BST is biased entirely against buyers, which seems counterproductive to say the least.


----------



## Matus

friz said:


> Is there a way of not allow anyone comments on BST?
> The interested people could send a private message.



I am not sure whether XenForo has that option (whether it would be the better choice for KKF is an entirely different question), but I personally know a forum where the only person allowed to (& able to) answer to a BST thread is the OP (plus not 'bumps' are allowed there either) and all questions or remarks of any kind are only via PM.


----------



## juice

crockerculinary said:


> he instead attempts to use flowery language to fill space instead of giving actual information


I'm still trying to work out what "This is bloody rough for having the courage of letting go of a Kamon’s blade" would mean if it was in English.


----------



## friz

Matus said:


> I am not sure whether XenForo has that option (whether it would be the better choice for KKF is an entirely different question), but I personally know a forum where the only person allowed to (& able to) answer to a BST thread is the OP (plus not 'bumps' are allowed there either) and all questions or remarks of any kind are only via PM.


Thank you for your answer. 

I don't know the forum you mentioned, but, in your opinion, is it a good approach to the problem?


----------



## juice

Helicon said:


> The information asymmetry on BST is biased entirely against buyers, which seems counterproductive to say the least.


Yes, very much this. "Sucked in, noob with too much money!" is pretty much how it works.


----------



## Matus

friz said:


> Thank you for your answer.
> 
> I don't know the forum you mentioned, but, in your opinion, is it a good approach to the problem?



It is not a knife related forum and the term ‘flipping’ is unknown there, plus the demographics is different. So while it seems to work fine there, I find it hard to say whether it would be the right approach for KKF.


----------



## WiriWiri

Helicon said:


> Indeed. The current policy prohibits any form of neutral or negative comments and questions, so it would seem only fair that positive and supportive comments should be banned, as well. At the moment there's nothing to stop one member from acting as a shill for another, for example. The information asymmetry on BST is biased entirely against buyers, which seems counterproductive to say the least.



Agreed, There’s something unedifying about watching an unrepentant flipper build up his post count by blowing smoke up the arses of others on BST, trite comments aplenty

I don’t want this guy’s praise fwiw, even I do admire the brass neck of this modern day Dick Dastardly and his daft throwaway comments. Personally when I see the name in question, an organist pipes up with a villain theme in my head - for some reason the deception is so primitive and knowing that he comes across as some kind of cad from the silent movie era. Not sure if a technical solution exists to add entrance music when a poster arrives, but I would like to investigate further


----------



## Migraine

I'd had no dealings with him prior to seeing the ridiculous pricing of that Kamon, but if everything people have said about him here is true then I see no reason not to ban him, at least from BST.


----------



## WildBoar

Dhoff said:


> Well, if it was possible, a system where buyer and seller both acknowledged a buy had taken place/ was about to take place and a possibility to review on both ends would at least warn if a seller or buyer multiple times perform in ill faith.


Another forum I am on has a section for rating buyers/ sellers. Most are overly glowing, but about 5% or so expose people with questionable selling or buying practices, which serves to protect others down the road.

With respect to the FS post, once I hit "legendary" I automatically read the rest of the thread with the Kung Fu Panda voice in my head. It worked pretty well -- I almost wanted to buy it


----------



## AT5760

Shouldn’t truly neutral posts be allowed? Like posting the original website sales link?


----------



## esoo

AT5760 said:


> Shouldn’t truly neutral posts be allowed? Like posting the original website sales link?



The problem with that is that as a commenter you would be making assumptions that a knife didn't go through other hands in between.


----------



## cooktocut

It seems to me that allowing him to continue with his antics on a forum whose members include knife makers/buyers that he’s screwed is only serving to protect him and offend good people that we all have respect for in the process.


----------



## Hockey3081

Barmoley said:


> It’s fine to not like the guy or not like what he wrote or how he did it, but unless he lied about what he is selling the burden is on the buyer. Once again spending a $1k on a knife you thought was a custom without searching just a bit is either lazy or is done on purpose by someone who is ok spending this much on this knife. In either case do we really need to protect these people? On the other side, you have JML quoting me the rules, telling someone else he has Pakistani knives and saying this would be an excellent starter Kamon to get to Brian Weekley status. So the shill can help his pal but anyone else needs to stay on the sidelines?




Respectfully, telling someone how how spend their money and protecting someone who may not understand nuances or be able to see through the BS wording are two very different things. Someone with a hole burning in their pocket can read my comment asking if he was willing to accept offers from people living on Earth and choose to move on the knife bec he really wants it or maybe it will trigger him to dig a little deeper and give his money to someone who isn’t going through such mental anguish and doesn’t need to summon up the *gulp* courage to let go of the knighted Benjamin Kamon knife he paid $300 for. 

You are within your right to stay silent, but I knew of his shady background prior to this so I felt like I enjoy KKF too much to let someone fall for it. I wouldn’t be surprised if those pics are not an accurate representation of the knife in its current state. 

Also, there is a reason why caveat emptor has faded away as the gold standard of transactions. 









How Caveat Venditor overrode Caveat Emptor?


The term ‘Caveat Emptor’ originated from Latin which means ‘Buyer Beware’. This principle says that the responsibility of the choice of…




medium.com








friz said:


> Is there a way of not allow anyone comments on BST?
> The interested people could send a private message.



How does that not make this place more like an ostrich with its head in the sand? I and a few others were willing to write some less than “go get ‘em champ!” replies to expose how idiotic the thread was but also prevent someone who really didn’t know any better. On the other side, you have JML quoting me the rules, saying someone else has a collection of Pakistani knives and stating this would make an excellent starter Kamon to achieve Brian Weekley status. So the shill can benefit his pal to make the sale but anyone else must side on the sidelines?


----------



## Brian Weekley

I’m still trying to clean the “gob smack” off that I got covered with when I first opened the BST post. Especially since I recently sold an almost identical knife for less than $400. Interesting that the OP acknowledged this in his reply. Though I’m relatively new to KKF, for several years in the early days of the internet I moderated for Radio Control forums so I might have some basis to comment.

Firstly I don’t think KKF should change anything about their current policy to BST. Positive comments only. Though everybody would like to see flippers and nar-do-wells uncovered, there are enough “light shiners”, “truth tellers” and general sh*t disturbers to render BST completely unmanageable. We would all lose access to trading our treasures as easily as we do.

Secondly the purchaser in the transaction would, in truth, get what they paid for. A bad deal by any reasonable standard but the deal the buyer made. I know … I have a premium priced “rust bucket” from a previous deal I made by pulling the trigger before doing my due diligence. I still have the knife in my “occasional” block, still use it from time to time and don’t ever plan to sell it. In fact it’s a pretty good knife despite the price and I enjoy using it, if only for the lesson it taught me. 

Thirdly, mods are unpaid volunteers! All would be amazed at the work involved and especially the crap they have to deal with on a daily basis. Moderating a free for all BST would probably be the end of most of them and we would end up with a Lord of the Flies situation. The result … no KKF. 

My last thought is that flipping knives is a really really lousy way to make a buck. A job cleaning toilets at a gas station probably pays better and is more honest work that people actually appreciate. It’s nice to have people think well of you.


----------



## Midsummer

Barmoley said:


> The price is ridiculous for this knife, no question about it. Great respect for Ben's work, but the price for this knife is totally insane. Forget free market since that causes knee jerk reactions by many. Why would anyone spend over a grand on a knife without knowing what they are buying? If they do decide to spend this money should we attempt to stop them? Why do we assume that a person willing to spend this much on this knife doesn't know what he is doing? A simple search will let you know what these sold for and when. Should we assume that a potential buyer is clueless and can't do a simple search? Or are we in a position to tell people how to spend their money?
> 
> The only way to deal with flippers is not to buy from them.
> 
> As far as allowing negative comments in for sale threads, to me they cause more harm than good. It is very easy to destroy a legit sale or someone's reputation by either not actually knowing what one talks about or by being malicious.
> 
> Positive comments on the price don't hurt anyone.


I have no dog in this fight. I do enjoy KKF. I have wandered away when I see institutionalized injustice that happens every so often. I have used a lot of BST and have a generally favorable impression.

In your defense of the current situation I do not understand how you can argue that the buyer can do a simple search to inform themselves about a knife.. so no need for guidance from others in the community. Yet, you suggest that the same folks are incapable of researching a "legit sale or someones reputation". This is logically incoherent.

I think that the logical incoherence of the current BST policy is what is bothersome. Your comment mirrors that. BTW, I have the greatest respect for you and the overworked Mod team.

In BST it seems it is OK to misrepresent; but not OK to call someone out on it. You can have a second identity and glorify your own offerings on line. There appears to be no requirements that if you are going to list on BST you do so honestly. 

And if KKF doesn’t have the man power to do it right then do nothing at all. Stop modding BST. No excuse for the bias that is currently shown.

Many here believe in the rule of Law. This implies principles and logical execution. Not justification of choices based on fears and the existence of systemic weaknesses.

That’s my 2 cents. Have a great day!


----------



## esoo

Midsummer said:


> And if KKF doesn’t have the man power to do it right then do nothing at all. Stop modding BST. No excuse for the bias that is currently shown.



Not modding BST is pretty much the same as saying that there will be no BST - a free-for-all in that section will drive sellers away.

As you said, someone can make a sock-puppet account to bump themselves up. With no modding, it is as easy to destroy a sale or reputation with one. I believe it @Barmoley who related just such a situation - iirc, it was he bought a knife from BST, was selling a similar knife on BST, and the seller of knife 1 slagged him for something as they thought the sale knife was the knife the one he bought.

So I see why the policy is currently the way it is.

What may be useful is to have a pricing sticky thread in the BST sub-forum with something like:


> The prices in this sub-forum are determined by the seller and are not under the control of KKF. Many on this forum strive to put fair market prices on the knives they sell. Rare (or desirable) knives may be marked up by the seller - please do your due diligence to determine if you feel these prices are fair, and if you have questions, please ask in the general forums.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Matus said:


> WW, I get your point, we just don't have any other system that is reasonably opened to 'everyone' and makes a better job at keeping the savages at bay. If we would allow 'all' comments in BST, then in few months those nicer guys would leave KKF for good, because every other BST thread would become a bloodbath and it would become MUCH harder to moderate it, because it would be just '_you guys moderated X, but left Y standing, this is unfair and you are biased_'.
> 
> Threads like this are an attempt to offer a bit of a balance to the situation. It is not perfect, but the best we can reasonably maintain. Please bear with us.
> 
> It is a bit like with parliamentarian democracy. Not perfect, but the best we have come up with so far.



Hi Matus. What about a dedicated feedback sub-forum? BST continues under the current protocols for commenting but then there is a sub-forum for leaving both positive and negative comments. This could be for people selling here or outside vendors. I've seen this work to great affect elsewhere. Quite often I've actually seen issues resolved this way and it's a nice resource for the broader community to do some research in.

Although, there is no doubt it can sometimes require extra mod involvement.


----------



## FishmanDE

I like the idea of the seller rating system if that could be at all possible. That and I think obvious misrepresentation of knives should be addressed by a MOD. Let the guy try to sell it for 1k, sure. But don’t let him misrepresent what that knife actually is.


----------



## Migraine

I really don't think we should be harbouring attempts to sell knives at such egregiously inflated prices and I don't think it's particularly hard to spot. If someone is trying to make a cheeky tenner that's one thing, but pricing a knife at like 4 times its retail value is entirely another.


----------



## Matus

To have some kind of system that would allow the seller and buyer to exchange feedback would be interesting, but I don't think that a sub-forum would be the way to do it. Maybe more something along the lines of BF/eBay/etc. It would however still not achieve only part of the objective some in this discussion appear to be interested in.

... and I just found out that BF apparently also runs on XenForo ...


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Matus said:


> To have some kind of system that would allow the seller and buyer to exchange feedback would be interesting, but I don't think that a sub-forum would be the way to do it. Maybe more something along the lines of BF/eBay/etc. It would however still not achieve only part of the objective some in this discussion appear to be interested in.
> 
> ... and I just found out that BF apparently also runs on XenForo ...



Matus, not at all arguing but what do you see as the drawbacks to the sub-forum? Just trying to understand.


----------



## Matus

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Matus, not at all arguing but what do you see as the drawbacks to the sub-forum? Just trying to understand.



Sudden increase in suicide rate of moderators.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Matus said:


> Sudden increase in suicide rate of moderators.



Ah, yeah there's no doubt it can be a mess sometimes.


----------



## btbyrd

There's another community I've been part of for a long time (11+ years) that has a very active B/S/T forum. The way they've handled it, which seems to work out well, is to have a stickied "good trader reference" thread and a "dubious transactions" thread. The content of these threads is limited to activity on the forum -- you're not allowed to bring up dubious activity that people have engaged in elsewhere. And the dubious transactions thread isn't really for price policing -- it's for people who take forever, ghost, fail to ship, ship damaged or wrongly described items, don't communicate, etc. 
I'm not sure if that kind of system would eliminate the specific behavior that we're up in arms about this very moment (a very overpriced knife from someone who has a bad reputation elsewhere but maybe not for doing things on this specific forum). But it's an idea.


----------



## big_adventure

How about sellers be forced to use a knife more than 2 times before they can part with the thing they are so deeply in love with? Mandatory cutting and sharpening vids.


----------



## Dhoff

big_adventure said:


> How about sellers be forced to use a knife more than 2 times before they can part with the thing they are so deeply in love with? Mandatory cutting and sharpening vids.



always take bst pictures with todays newspaper included  

price must be renamed to ransom


----------



## esoo

Dhoff said:


> always take bst pictures with todays newspaper included



this would stop most of the hacked account/use other people's pictures issues. On the Reddit sales subs I'm on, it is a requirement to post in the pic both username and date.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

How about both:
1. Post a picture/screen shot of the original purchase invoice/BST thread/etc. Nothing should be posted without a proof of source. If it was obtained from a trade without any source proof, the seller needs to be in certain status to post (something like 200+ reaction score).
2. Picture/video of the knife's current condition with ID and date on the side.


----------



## Barmoley

Midsummer said:


> I have no dog in this fight. I do enjoy KKF. I have wandered away when I see institutionalized injustice that happens every so often. I have used a lot of BST and have a generally favorable impression.
> 
> In your defense of the current situation I do not understand how you can argue that the buyer can do a simple search to inform themselves about a knife.. so no need for guidance from others in the community. Yet, you suggest that the same folks are incapable of researching a "legit sale or someones reputation". This is logically incoherent.
> 
> I think that the logical incoherence of the current BST policy is what is bothersome. Your comment mirrors that. BTW, I have the greatest respect for you and the overworked Mod team.
> 
> In BST it seems it is OK to misrepresent; but not OK to call someone out on it. You can have a second identity and glorify your own offerings on line. There appears to be no requirements that if you are going to list on BST you do so honestly.
> 
> And if KKF doesn’t have the man power to do it right then do nothing at all. Stop modding BST. No excuse for the bias that is currently shown.
> 
> Many here believe in the rule of Law. This implies principles and logical execution. Not justification of choices based on fears and the existence of systemic weaknesses.
> 
> That’s my 2 cents. Have a great day!



It is much easier to tarnish someone's reputation or mess up a sale than to create a bad sale by fake praises. Many have brought up that a seller could create a fake account or have friends praise a bad deal and in theory it is possible, but it doesn't happen in practice. Every so often we have these bad flips and many scream and yell that the rules need to change, but in reality the system works and works very well the way it is now. It is not perfect and no system is, but it works very well. Changing BST to free for all is a very bad idea as it will become a blood bath because of all the well meaning members trying to help others by commenting in for sale threads.

There is no logical incoherence in what I said because positive and negative comments are not equivalent in their effect. It is easy to figure out what the knife sold for before and what the knife is, so that's why I said that anyone spending this much can easily figure this out. It is very difficult to research if a bad comment on the value is legit or not. If there is more than one bad comment it becomes so difficult that many would just move on instead of trying to figure out who is right the seller or the commenter.

There was an example very recently where some claimed, that the knives a retailer was selling were bent. It was clearly an optical illusion, but the retailer had to post proof with pictures to show that it was. Things like this will happen all the time if we allow negative comments in BST threads, mostly because of well meaning members trying to protect others.

I don't know the guy who is selling this Kamon production knife, he sounds like scum. People I have much respect for say so and I believe them. My comments are about fundamental rules for BST here and I believe that the current system works very well given the limitations we have. In fact it works so well that some members choose to sell outside of BST when they want to make a little on some of their more unique or hard to get knives for fear of ridicule here. Not talking about something as ridiculous as what we are discussing currently. I think this is a shame that the members here are missing out on some of these sales.


----------



## Dhoff

How would it be taken if a member asked openly for advice on a specific bst post? (in another part of the forum)

an advice subforum maybe?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> How about both:
> 1. Post a picture/screen shot of the original purchase invoice/BST thread/etc. Nothing should be posted without a proof of source. If it was obtained from a trade without any source proof, the seller needs to be in certain status to post (something like 200+ reaction score).
> 2. Picture/video of the knife's current condition with ID and date on the side.



No offense, but if I decide to sell something on BST that I bought brand new, I'm not posting a receipt.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

HumbleHomeCook said:


> No offense, but if I decide to sell something on BST that I bought brand new, I'm not posting a receipt.


I'm confused. What does it hurt if one is not going to flip it?


----------



## esoo

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I'm confused. What does it hurt if one is not going to flip it?



Because the price on a receipt doesn't equal the price paid (for those of us that have to import). Duty, local taxes, exchange rates/fees are not captured in the receipt.


----------



## Migraine

True but they also don't quadruple the cost of the knife.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I'm confused. What does it hurt if one is not going to flip it?



Because I don't keep them. Once I have my thing and am happy with it, I move on. If I dig out a knife four years from now to sell, I'm supposed to include a receipt?

Nah.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

esoo said:


> Because the price on a receipt doesn't equal the price paid (for those of us that have to import). Duty, local taxes, exchange rates/fees are not captured in the receipt.


Those all could be clarified, no?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Let's keep things in perspective. I'm not discounting the current antics, but the OVERWHELMING majority of BST transactions are fair, clean and every one is happy.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Because I don't keep them. Once I have my thing and am happy with it, I move on. If I dig out a knife four years from now to sell, I'm supposed to include a receipt?
> 
> Nah.


I don't know. All of my knives were purchased online so I have all the invoices in my email or I have those original BST threads.


----------



## Migraine

Having said that I don't endorse the idea of making people show proof of purchase.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I don't know. All of my knives were purchased online so I have all the invoices in my email or I have those original BST threads.



Again, I don't save even the electronic ones for too long.

Besides, what does it matter what someone paid vs. what they are selling for so long as the asking price is reasonable? If someone gets a smoking deal from their uncle on a nice knife but later needs some funds for something and sells at fair value, what business is it of anyone else's what they paid?

I'm not saying that's what I would do, but I couldn't fault someone who did.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

If you got a smoking deal you should still feel comfortable to sell it at a fair market price even when being transparent about the paid price. Why not? And the proof of source serves more to prove what the knife is than what the paid amount it, although the latter can ultimately solve the flipping debate.


----------



## Migraine

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Let's keep things in perspective. I'm not discounting the current antics, but the OVERWHELMING majority of BST transactions are fair, clean and every one is happy.


Which is precisely why I don't think we should indirectly endorse that kind of thing by allowing it to happen here. This community is better than that. BST on this place has a well deserved aura of trustability and I think newer members could easily be fooled into buying a ridiculously overpriced knife due to the thought that "it's on KKF and nobody has said anything so it must be fine".


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

If you don't feel comfortable about revealing the original cost, then this is a market to you, not a community. period.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Migraine said:


> Which is precisely why I don't think we should indirectly endorse that kind of thing by allowing it to happen here. This community is better than that. BST on this place has a well deserved aura of trustability and I think newer members could easily be fooled into buying a ridiculously overpriced knife due to the thought that "it's on KKF and nobody has said anything so it must be fine".



Oh no doubt on all fronts. I _myself_ didn't know the actual values of those knives. I'm not in that market but I always look. I could easily see how someone new and eager could be fooled. But, they also still have a responsibility to get educated before wading into the $1k knife pool.

No easy answer.


----------



## esoo

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Those all could be clarified, no?



They could, but what does it really matter? For example, I bought a Takamura Chromax earlier this year. It would have been free ship to the US - but I had to pay $30USD or $40CAD. Then add $40CAD taxes + brokerage fees. These cost me an additional 30% of the knife (that only Canadian sellers would pay).

So if I up the price, I'm not trying to flip, I'm trying to at least re-coup some of my costs.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> If you don't feel comfortable about revealing the original cost, then this is a market to you, not a community. period.



Wow. Seriously? That's pretty extreme.


----------



## esoo

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> If you don't feel comfortable about revealing the original cost, then this is a market to you, not a community. period.



There are knives that I have that I would never reveal the original price. This is due to an arrangement that was made with the seller that is no elses business.


----------



## Migraine

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Oh no doubt on all fronts. I _myself_ didn't know the actual values of those knives. I'm not in that market but I always look. I could easily see how someone new and eager could be fooled. But, they also still have a responsibility to get educated before wading into the $1k knife pool.
> 
> No easy answer.



I think there is an easy answer. Someone should be allowed to post something like "the original cost of these knives from the maker was £xyz, just for the information of prospective buyers".

That's purely factual and allows someone to make a more informed decision.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

esoo said:


> They could, but what does it really matter? For example, I bought a Takamura Chromax earlier this year. It would have been free ship to the US - but I had to pay $30USD or $40CAD. Then add $40CAD taxes + brokerage fees. These cost me an additional 30% of the knife (that only Canadian sellers would pay).
> 
> So if I up the price, I'm not trying to flip, I'm trying to at least re-coup some of my costs.


That's totally understandable and you can put all these information in your thread and nobody would call you a flipper.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

esoo said:


> There are knives that I have that I would never reveal the original price. This is due to an arrangement that was made with the seller that is no elses business.


That's a good point. Maybe for this type of source, you can put a proof of source with cost hided, with a special note explaining that it's due to the arrangement with the original seller.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Wow. Seriously? That's pretty extreme.


Taking advantage of hided information is market behavior to me.


----------



## tostadas

Barmoley said:


> It is much easier to tarnish someone's reputation or mess up a sale than to create a bad sale by fake praises. Many have brought up that a seller could create a fake account or have friends praise a bad deal and in theory it is possible, but it doesn't happen in practice. Every so often we have these bad flips and many scream and yell that the rules need to change, but in reality the system works and works very well the way it is now. It is not perfect and no system is, but it works very well. Changing BST to free for all is a very bad idea as it will become a blood bath because of all the well meaning members trying to help others by commenting in for sale threads.
> 
> There is no logical incoherence in what I said because positive and negative comments are not equivalent in their effect. It is easy to figure out what the knife sold for before and what the knife is, so that's why I said that anyone spending this much can easily figure this out. It is very difficult to research if a bad comment on the value is legit or not. If there is more than one bad comment it becomes so difficult that many would just move on instead of trying to figure out who is right the seller or the commenter.
> 
> There was an example very recently where some claimed, that the knives a retailer was selling were bent. It was clearly an optical illusion, but the retailer had to post proof with pictures to show that it was. Things like this will happen all the time if we allow negative comments in BST threads, mostly because of well meaning members trying to protect others.
> 
> I don't know the guy who is selling this Kamon production knife, he sounds like scum. People I have much respect for say so and I believe them. My comments are about fundamental rules for BST here and I believe that the current system works very well given the limitations we have. In fact it works so well that some members chose to sell outside of BST when they want to make a little on some of their more unique or hard to get knives for fear of ridicule here. Not talking about something as ridiculous as what we are discussing currently. I think this is a shame that the members here are missing out on some of these sales.


In general I agree the system on this board works very well. I have had nothing but positive experiences both buying and selling. The market sort of sets the price, so if something is priced too high, then it will sit there. Easy.

However, it is unfortunate that we have one or two POS like this Sparten007 guy who are out here to cheat others. Advertising something with clever language to deceive people who don't read carefully or who trust in the good nature of others on the forum. (And sh*t like "it puts a smile on my face"... give me a break.)

I don't agree with completely changing the structure of the BST just to prevent trash like this guy from abusing it. Tough job for the mods.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Taking advantage of hided information is market behavior to me.



Soooooo... What if a person does have market behavior and isn't really an active community participant? Should they not be allowed to partake in BST?

I see a lot of people selling in BST who don't post much outside of it.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Soooooo... What if a person does have market behavior and isn't really an active community participant? Should they not be allowed to partake in BST?
> 
> I see a lot of people selling in BST who don't post much outside of it.


To be fair I'm not against the idea of free market and I don't judge flippers. What I proposed is just a way to reduce lying/hiding about the knife.


----------



## Sdo

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Soooooo... What if a person does have market behavior and isn't really an active community participant? Should they not be allowed to partake in BST?
> 
> I see a lot of people selling in BST who don't post much outside of it.


BST is, from some time to this part, a market not a community. 

Cheers!


----------



## Dhoff

Just to add. 

First (and so far only) knife I bought on BST, I asked for a receipt. It is not that uncommon to do in Denmark when buying used.

The seller did not have it around, and I fully accepted that and the price.

Now, the seller contacted me within an hour of me accepting and wrote "I found the receipt, it was cheaper than I recalled, I'll add discount" and then sent the receipt with the knife.

A great guy.


----------



## cooktocut

I love this community. Lots of intelligent and well spoken arguments are being made here. I've yet to sell any knives on here, but when I do I will remember this situation and act accordingly. My love for knives (and I suspect many on here share this) does not stem from the ability to potentially make money later down the line. I would not want to tarnish my hobby and passion by turning it into that, because it's more important to me that other people share in this hobby as well, and by extension live happier, healthier lives from cooking more at home. So if and when the time comes to sell anything, I will surely be posting the price paid, and being as honest as possible so that I can feel good about contributing to this community in a positive, unselfish way.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

Yea a proof of source won’t even hurt flippers if it’s a fair trade. Most buyers who pay huge premium for rare knives understand what the original cost is. They paid for it anyway. The proof of source only confirms the story of knife the seller tells. Like the purchase date/batch, the type of steel (125sc vs 145sc for example, I’m a bit a worried about my raquin purchase tbh after seeing you guys’ comments about the seller). 

And it also minimizes the chance of having unfortunate buyers who pay without enough knowledge.

The point is if you think you are making a fair trade, there should be nothing you really need to hide. Even if you make some bucks out of the market, there’s nothing wrong about it unless you want to pretend it’s not the case.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> To be fair I'm not against the idea of free market and I don't judge flippers. What I proposed is just a way to reduce lying/hiding about the knife.



I think if a person _wants to show _a receipt or other original purchase info, that is great. My only pause was in requiring it to be a condition of the sale.


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> To be fair I'm not against the idea of free market and I don't judge flippers. What I proposed is just a way to reduce lying/hiding about the knife.


Nah, you haven't proposed anything that could really work. Receipts can be easily faked. Especially electronic ones. Or imagine it was a gift. Or you paid in cash to a person. 

I once bought a blade for 300euros. Made a handle and saya. Used it a lot. Dropped, chipped, reground, repolished. After few years I sold it BST for 900usd. And people lined up to get it. Cause it was a good deal, even though it was 3x times the price I paid. Often selling price has nothing to do with the price paid.


----------



## silylanjie

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Yea a proof of source won’t even hurt flippers if it’s a fair trade. Most buyers who pay huge premium for rare knives understand what the original cost is. They paid for it anyway. The proof of source only confirms the story of knife the seller tells. Like the purchase date/batch, the type of steel (125sc vs 145sc for example, I’m a bit a worried about my raquin purchase tbh after seeing you guys’ comments about the seller).
> 
> And it also minimizes the chance of having unfortunate buyers who pay without enough knowledge.
> 
> The point is if you think you are making a fair trade, there should be nothing you really need to hide. Even if you make some bucks out of the market, there’s nothing wrong about it unless you want to pretend it’s not the case.



I seen seller's have no idea of the story of their own knife that they are selling; like wrong year make and incorrect blacksmith thats not matching with kanji on the blade.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Nah, you haven't proposed anything that could really work. Receipts can be easily faked. Especially electronic ones. Or imagine it was a gift. Or you paid in cash to a person.
> 
> I once bought a blade for 300euros. Made a handle and saya. Used it a lot. Dropped, chipped, reground, repolished. After few years I sold it BST for 900usd. And people lined up to get it. Cause it was a good deal, even though it was 3x times the price I paid. Often selling price has nothing to do with the price paid.


That's why I said reducing not eliminating. I don't see how increasing the cost for faking won't reduce it. If you consider this not working, then our current BST is only worse.


----------



## Jaszer13

I've got to tell you guys. This is the juiciest gossip since JML got banned and berated by mods. I haven't been active on KKF for a while and must've received 4 DM's in IG about this post. Great read, will read again in the future.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

And faking a receipt makes you legally liable to it. Once it's posted it's a proof buyer can use on the court. It's totally different than just talking sh*t. If you photoshop a receipt, there would be trace. And the original seller who issued the receipt can always be used for validation.

Maybe for international trades it won't help much, but for domestic trades I don't see why it can't help.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> I once bought a blade for 300euros. Made a handle and saya. Used it a lot. Dropped, chipped, reground, repolished. After few years I sold it BST for 900usd. And people lined up to get it. Cause it was a good deal, even though it was 3x times the price I paid. Often selling price has nothing to do with the price paid.


And this exactly proves my point that if it's a fair trade, there's nothing you need to hide from. If the original paid price doesn't matter here, why can't you post it? It also helps you recall the information about the knife like when you bought it, from where, what exactly it is. More information is always good. Why against it if you don't feel morally guilty for showing it.


----------



## Barmoley

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> That's why I said reducing not eliminating. I don't see how increasing the cost for faking won't reduce it. If you consider this not working, then our current BST is only worse.


But BST already works well without extra rules that just make some feel better. It has worked well for years. What does original price have to do with the current sale price? The current situation is so outrageous that creating some new rules just to deal with such an event is a total waste of time. Everything proposed so far is unlikely to make BST any better and will just create more headaches for the mods. Be a responsible buyer, don't jump on a knife just because the maker is hot and you feel like you will miss an opportunity. Do your research. You might miss out on some great deals or hot makers, but so what, plenty of great knives out there. Alternatively, if you just need to get the maker in the fear of missing out, that's fine too, but then suffer the consequences of your actions. It is on you as a buyer. There are plenty of great knives on BST right now for very reasonable prices that are not selling, maybe because the makers haven't been hyped up or most don't know what they are looking at, I don't know.

I can't feel bad for someone that is willing to spend over a grand on a knife without doing their homework and I don't think the community needs to protect these people from themselves. 

This particular seller seems to be a bad apple because of his other dealings. In principle though BST works well the way it is and no more restrictions on sellers are needed.


----------



## Barmoley

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> And this exactly proves my point that if it's a fair trade, there's nothing you need to hide from. If the original paid price doesn't matter here, why can't you post it? It also helps you recall the information about the knife like when you bought it, from where, what exactly it is. More information is always good. Why against it if you don't feel morally guilty for showing it.


Because people will jump all over you and call you a flipper in a second. Because somehow what we feel is a fair deal changes depending on how much the previous person paid. This is just reality and no amount of wishing it wasn't so will change it.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> And this exactly proves my point that if it's a fair trade, there's nothing you need to hide from. If the original paid price doesn't matter here, why can't you post it? It also helps you recall the information about the knife like when you bought it, from where, what exactly it is. More information is always good. Why against it if you don't feel morally guilty for showing it.



You should be sure to post the receipt for all your future sales.

With all due respect, just because you think it is a great idea shouldn't mean everyone else has to abide by it.



Barmoley said:


> Because people will jump all over you and call you a flipper in a second. Because somehow what we feel is a fair deal changes depending on how much the previous person paid. This is just reality and no amount of wishing it wasn't so will change it.



Yep.


----------



## tcmx3

Im strongly on Hz's side here.

I would like you folks who are getting up in arms about what he's saying to take a step back and realize that you're fighting REALLY hard for the rules to extend to EXACTLY the point you personally feel they should, whereas he is arguing that folks ought to be acting in the spirit of the community. 

Is that really the stance you want to take?


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

HumbleHomeCook said:


> You should be sure to post the receipt for all your future sales.
> 
> With all due respect, just because you think it is a great idea shouldn't mean everyone else has to abide by it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.


I've never posted my receipts but all my BST threads are there you can search for. I never made a penny on KKF BST trades (I did accidentally profit from a couple of ebay bids; didn't expect the buyers to be that crazy about my Shun/Miyabis). But my personal moral requirements don't matter here.

I'm just tired of seeing people taking advantage of the market while pointing fingers on others who do the same. Even if yours is more moderate.


----------



## rstcso

Buyer beware! Due diligence! Etc!

The police in Austin just announced they will not be dispatching officers to any crimes via 911 unless it's in-progress and a life is in danger. Otherwise, use 311 or go online to file your report. This includes if your home is burglarized! A Photoshopped sales receipt for a knife purchase isn't likely to get anyone's attention. Yeck, Judge Judy wouldn't even take the case unless someone got stabbed with it!

Let's be careful out there.


----------



## Barmoley

tcmx3 said:


> Im strongly on Hz's side here.
> 
> I would like you folks who are getting up in arms about what he's saying to take a step back and realize that you're fighting REALLY hard for the rules to extend to EXACTLY the point you personally feel they should, whereas he is arguing that folks ought to be acting in the spirit of the community.
> 
> Is that really the stance you want to take?


Absolutely. I want the rules to stay the way they are because they work. They have been proven to work for many years and many transactions. What is being suggested is not workable. 

I don't see how providing original receipts on every sale extends the spirit of the community. I would never expect you to sell me your Kato you paid $450 for, for the same price. Why would I, why would I need to know what you paid for it? Someone else might though and incorrectly call you a flipper because all of a sudden it feels like your current price is ridiculous.


----------



## rstcso

Barmoley said:


> I want the rules to stay the way they are because they work.


I'm a new guy and totally agree.


----------



## Hockey3081

rstcso said:


> Buyer beware! Due diligence! Etc!
> 
> The police in Austin just announced they will not be dispatching officers to any crimes via 911 unless it's in-progress and a life is in danger. Otherwise, use 311 or go online to file your report. This includes if your home is burglarized! A Photoshopped sales receipt for a knife purchase isn't likely to get anyone's attention. Yeck, Judge Judy wouldn't even take the case unless someone got stabbed with it!
> 
> Let's be careful out there.



This is a strange analogy. I get what you’re trying to say and agree the police aren’t going to do a whole lot despite supposedly liability for a faked receipt on a $1000 knife. That’s more of a make a report and go to small claims court situation anyway - why would make that analogous to Austin’s 911 protocols. 

Conveniently you left out the context for their changes - “ The new policy is a result of a recent review of APD’s COVID-19 mitigation protocol, the current staffing shortage, as well as reimagining public safety task force recommendations.” I have to deal with the police here and there for my job for things that have already happened and I just call non-emergency to get an officer out because after the fact, it’s non-emergent. Veering off topic since I agreed with what you were getting at so cheerio.


----------



## rstcso

Hockey3081 said:


> This is a strange analogy.


I like strange analogies.


----------



## btbyrd

The idea that people should have to post their previous receipts for the knife they're selling is antithetical to the spirit of community.


----------



## FishmanDE

btbyrd said:


> The idea that people should have to post their previous receipts for the knife they're selling is antithetical to the spirit of community.



That’s an interesting take considering how many people sound the alarms anytime some doesn’t post reference to the previous BST post in their new listing


----------



## Hockey3081

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> And this exactly proves my point that if it's a fair trade, there's nothing you need to hide from. If the original paid price doesn't matter here, why can't you post it? It also helps you recall the information about the knife like when you bought it, from where, what exactly it is. More information is always good. Why against it if you don't feel morally guilty for showing it.



Do you ask Target or Best Buy or any other business to show you their wholesale invoicing because “what is there to hide”?

I am all for specific sellers being held accountable for being sh!theads, but to make it insanely/unnecessarily burdensome (and borderline intrusive) for every seller because of a handful of morons makes no sense and will dry the BST up like *insert pun here*


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

Barmoley said:


> Because people will jump all over you and call you a flipper in a second. Because somehow what we feel is a fair deal changes depending on how much the previous person paid. This is just reality and no amount of wishing it wasn't so will change it.


That's unfortunate because the moral pressure is pushing people to participate in the market secretly...to a point some sellers feel ashamed for doing perfectly right thing. I would sincerely say congrats to the seller who paid $450 10 years ago for a Kato and now sells it for $1000. He/she obviously made a smart move 10 years ago. I would also feel happy for the buyer who gets a great knife.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I've never posted my receipts but all my BST threads are there you can search for. I never made a penny on KKF BST trades (I did accidentally profit from a couple of ebay bids; didn't expect the buyers to be that crazy about my Shun/Miyabis). But my personal moral requirements don't matter here.
> 
> I'm just tired of seeing people taking advantage of the market while pointing fingers on others who do the same. Even if yours is more moderate.



If you want to attempt policing "taking advantage of the market" you will forever be flustered. You can't take advantage of the market without, well, a market. And a market means people are willing to pay XX price for XX item. Who is at fault there?

Now, scamming, dishonest, or misleading type people are something else.


----------



## cooktocut

Only reason why I’d ever want to hide what I paid for a knife is because I’m ashamed of how much I was willing to spend for it


----------



## esoo

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I would sincerely say congrats to the seller who paid $450 10 years ago for a Kato and now sells it for $1000. He/she obviously made a smart move 10 years ago. I would also feel happy for the buyer who gets a great knife.



So on what time line is someone not a flipper? And who gets to decide that?


----------



## tcmx3

Barmoley said:


> Absolutely. I want the rules to stay the way they are because they work. They have been proven to work for many years and many transactions. What is being suggested is not workable.
> 
> I don't see how providing original receipts on every sale extends the spirit of the community. I would never expect you to sell me your Kato you paid $450 for, for the same price. Why would I, why would I need to know what you paid for it? Someone else might though and incorrectly call you a flipper because all of a sudden it feels like your current price is ridiculous.



interestingly enough there are definitely two or three people I would sell my Kato to and it would be for exactly what I've paid for the knife and the handle I have on it now.

but they dont post much around here anymore  

everyone else would yes pay a lot more. on the other hand, I am the resident champion of "you can do what you want and accept criticism OR you can not be criticized BUT you CANNOT do both" so if people posted about me in this thread you can take it to the bank I wouldnt be in this thread acting all butthurt I got called out.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

esoo said:


> So on what time line is someone not a flipper? And who gets to decide that?


I would call those who buy low on BST just to sell high (not to use) the type of flippers I don't like. They are taking advantage of people's kindness.


----------



## tcmx3

also pretty sure 10 years is not even the same conversation as people turning stuff around in a week or 2 or doing what the person in question has alleged to have done with dealers.

just want to make sure absolutely zero people are under the misconception these two are anywhere near the same thing. is there a hard line? maybe not, but these are polar opposite examples.


----------



## Migraine

Flipping Katos is totally different to what the guy that sparked this argument is doing.

Katos are forever selling for massive prices; even if someone has flipped it and made a bit of profit, chances are they've sold it for an amount within the realms of market value.

The guy selling the Kamon has put a price on it which is completely absurd based on the market, and he's absolutely hoping someone unaware stumbles into buying it because hey BST is trustworthy, right? It's not the same.

I think people should be completely within their rights to point out such egregious pricing, even if (as I said before) it's simply by presenting the facts so anyone who comes along has a better chance of making an informed decision.

If someone actually buys that Kamon for over $1000 (and I absolutely love my Kamon and mean no disrespect to the quality of Ben's work) then I think it's shame on all of us for allowing it to happen on this platform.


----------



## silylanjie

I seen member that buys it for low on BST and then instantly flips it on here and other forums for more... I don't really like that kind of practice but its a open market


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

silylanjie said:


> I seen member that buys it for low on BST and then instantly flips it on here and other forums for more... I don't really like that kind of practice but its a open market


One should be free to do it as long as there’s no miss information. By posting the proof of source (the original BST thread), buyers would be aware the seller is flipping. It’s up to the buyer if they can accept that.


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> That's why I said reducing not eliminating. I don't see how increasing the cost for faking won't reduce it. If you consider this not working, then our current BST is only worse.


Personally I don't think BST needs any changes. I don't like that comments are restricted in BST, but I understand why it was done and believe that it serves its purpose. 



Hz_zzzzzz said:


> And faking a receipt makes you legally liable to it. Once it's posted it's a proof buyer can use on the court. It's totally different than just talking sh*t. If you photoshop a receipt, there would be trace. And the original seller who issued the receipt can always be used for validation.
> 
> Maybe for international trades it won't help much, but for domestic trades I don't see why it can't help.


Being a programer I don't need a photoshop to fake receipt. I can open Paypal, view source code of any old receipts and rewrite anything I need. Result will look exactly the same as original. To verify it's validity you'd need to contact Paypal. And if I were really evil, I wouldn't choose Paypal, but some less used payment system and use some already closed online shop, so no one could prove its validity. And I'm not even a real criminal, I'm sure those guys has real tricks in their stashes. 

I'm not even touching the legal aspects here as each country has their own rules. Heck I heard that even different US states might have different regulations.



Hz_zzzzzz said:


> And this exactly proves my point that if it's a fair trade, there's nothing you need to hide from. If the original paid price doesn't matter here, why can't you post it? It also helps you recall the information about the knife like when you bought it, from where, what exactly it is. More information is always good. Why against it if you don't feel morally guilty for showing it.


I believe my argument doesn't prove your point. It's quite the opposite. And there's yet another thing you mentioned that I can't agree with: "More information is always good". It's not. Neither in general nor in this particular case. Let me explain myself. 

Time is value. In order to make each decision we only require some finite amount of information. For example we don't need to know knife maker's favourite music or is mother's name to make a purchase. Personally I don't give a **** how many times a knife was sharpened/honed (and on which abrasives). I don't care if seller used knife only on two carrots or if it slaughtered thorough hords of pumpkins. I check pictures and judge knife state. I don't care what was the weather when that knife was made. Or have many line chefs owned it before me. I could go one, but I guess my point is clear at this point. More information is not always good. At least not for everybody. 

Don't fix what isn't broken. I believe BST is good enough to let it fly as is. If you don't like some particular listing — don't buy. If you believe someone is liar then you are welcome to start another thread or contact mods or just ignore that person! This forum software is great as it allows you to ignore hundreds and thousands! (ask me how I know)


----------



## Hockey3081

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> One should be free to do it as long as there’s no miss information. By posting the proof of source (the original BST thread), buyers would be aware the seller is flipping. It’s up to the buyer if they can accept that.



This is under the assumption everyone sells from what they pick up on BST. I bought 3 knives from a retailer and he gave me a little bit of a break so I frankly have no idea what each knife netted out to be. Again, if you want to do that, go for it. A lot of people already do it. But again, you’ll push people to go sell elsewhere where they don’t need to spend the time uploading receipts or finding links. I think we’re on the same page that people like Sparten (also did he misspell “Spartan”?) should be weeded out but our thoughts on accomplishing that are quite different.


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Migraine said:


> If someone actually buys that Kamon for over $1000 (and I absolutely love my Kamon and mean no disrespect to the quality of Ben's work) then I think it's shame on all of us for allowing it to happen on this platform.


I think you misunderstood the idea of free market. If someone has a spare grand for a nice knife, then why not? 
If you believe that seller is scammer — then it's a different thing. But then it's not about price, it's about a person being a pile of ****.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Personally I don't think BST needs any changes. I don't like that comments are restricted in BST, but I understand why it was done and believe that it serves its purpose.
> 
> 
> Being a programer I don't need a photoshop to fake receipt. I can open Paypal, view source code of any old receipts and rewrite anything I need. Result will look exactly the same as original. To verify it's validity you'd need to contact Paypal. And if I were really evil, I wouldn't choose Paypal, but some less used payment system and use some already closed online shop, so no one could prove its validity. And I'm not even a real criminal, I'm sure those guys has real tricks in their stashes.
> 
> I'm not even touching the legal aspects here as each country has their own rules. Heck I heard that even different US states might have different regulations.
> 
> 
> I believe my argument doesn't prove your point. It's quite the opposite. And there's yet another thing you mentioned that I can't agree with: "More information is always good". It's not. Neither in general nor in this particular case. Let me explain myself.
> 
> Time is value. In order to make each decision we only require some finite amount of information. For example we don't need to know knife maker's favourite music or is mother's name to make a purchase. Personally I don't give a **** how many times a knife was sharpened/honed (and on which abrasives). I don't care if seller used knife only on two carrots or if it slaughtered thorough hords of pumpkins. I check pictures and judge knife state. I don't care what was the weather when that knife was made. Or have many line chefs owned it before me. I could go one, but I guess my point is clear at this point. More information is not always good. At least not for everybody.
> 
> Don't fix what isn't broken. I believe BST is good enough to let it fly as is. If you don't like some particular listing — don't buy. If you believe someone is liar then you are welcome to start another thread or contact mods or just ignore that person! This forum software is great as it allows you to ignore hundreds and thousands! (ask me how I know)


What you are saying is basically good sellers won't want to spend the time to prove themselves but bad sellers will spend the time, use the techniques, and bear the legal risks to fake themselves no matter what, so as a result nobody should be required to prove anything?

I don't believe good seller won't want to spend time to provide more information. This is my last BST thread. I've spent the time to take the pictures, measure the dimensions, summarize my feelings about it. The marginally additional time I need to get a screenshot of my order confirmation from Ai&Om in my email is minimal. I'll probably start to post it from my next BST thread. SOLD - Hinoura Mutsumi Stainless Clad Aogami Super Gyuto 240


----------



## Barmoley

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> That's unfortunate because the moral pressure is pushing people to participate in the market secretly...to a point some sellers feel ashamed for doing perfectly right thing. I would sincerely say congrats to the seller who paid $450 10 years ago for a Kato and now sells it for $1000. He/she obviously made a smart move 10 years ago. I would also feel happy for the buyer who gets a great knife.


I agree. We are really discussing intent and not actions. We are perfectly fine with someone selling for more when the intent wasn’t to make profit. Time makes it clear that the intent was not to make a profit, as it is a pretty bad way of making money holding knives for a long time. We are not ok with the same action done in a short period of time, because there the intent is to make a profit.

There could be situations where we would still accept an increase in price without it being called a flip if for example a popular maker stopped making knives or increased his prices. These situations get less scrutiny even though if the time is very short the pitchforks might still come out.

I am against more rules on BST. I'd rather we rarely saw flippers like this guy, and it really is rare, than loose potential opportunities for the members. I don't want you to take your Kato, Shig, Rader, Billipp, etc somewhere else because you were afraid to sell here. I want you to give this community first dibs and each member can decide if the price is right for them. Will this cause some people being taken advantage of, probably. We are not selling or buying necessities here, so I am fine with "sacrificing" some for good of most, after all it is hard to feel bad for someone spending a lot on a knife they know nothing about. People need to take responsibility for their actions when spending a lot of money on toys.


----------



## ian

Personally, I think that requiring people to add proof of last purchase price is kind of ridiculous. That kind of rule makes it seem like the police are out to get the sellers, and you better make sure all your docs are in order before you even think of posting, damnit! It's especially ridiculous because of things like the Kato example where prices increase over time, and no central authority is really quantifying exactly how much they should increase. But what I really don't like about it is that it supposes that we shouldn't trust the sellers, which is sort of anti-community, and that selling things for less than asking price should be a source of honor and pride rather than some written rule. 

Better to rely on sellers to be honest and reasonable, and to ***** about it in the flipper thread when they aren't.


----------



## tcmx3

Barmoley said:


> I am against more rules on BST. I'd rather we rarely saw flippers like this guy, and it really is rare, than loose potential opportunities for the members. I don't want you to take your Kato, Shig, Rader, Billipp, etc somewhere else because you were afraid to sell here. I want you to give this community first dibs and each member can decide if the price is right for them. Will this cause some people being taken advantage of, probably. We are not selling or buying necessities here, so I am fine with "sacrificing" some for good of most, after all it is hard to feel bad for someone spending a lot on a knife they know nothing about. People need to take responsibility for their actions when spending a lot of money on toys.



perhaps it's time for more mods/BST specific mods.

I actually agree that it's premature to talk about more rules for BST, but mostly because I think there should be more enforcement of the current ones before new ones get made. And maybe an expansion of the Paypal rules to really nuke all F&F deals. Or a formalization of the process to deal with hacked accounts because right now that's definitely a bigger issue than flippers IMO.

also this thread shows how difficult it is to balance getting feedback, which is probably necessary to address the problem, and the quality of said feedback, which so far doesnt strike me as being likely to address the problem.

I like that people are at least making suggestions though. But if we're gonna go through I want the conversation limited to people with a certain degree of continuing involvement. IE no 2021s or maybe even 2020ers. JMO


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

ian said:


> Personally, I think that requiring people to add proof of last purchase price is kind of ridiculous. That kind of rule makes it seem like the police are out to get the sellers, and you better make sure all your docs are in order before you even think of posting, damnit! It's especially ridiculous because of things like the Kato example where prices increase over time, and no central authority is really quantifying exactly how much they should increase. But what I really don't like about it is that it supposes that we shouldn't trust the sellers, which is sort of anti-community, and that selling things for less than asking price should be a source of honor and pride rather than some written rule.
> 
> Better to rely on sellers to be honest and reasonable, and to ***** about it in the flipper thread when they aren't.


I respect your opinions and I don't disagree with all of them. Just one thing, maybe we should make this Flipper Alert thread the top thread on the BST subforum. If someone is clueless enough to make those clueless purchases, there's a good chance he/she won't even look at the "The Off Topic Room" at all.


----------



## Barmoley

tcmx3 said:


> interestingly enough there are definitely two or three people I would sell my Kato to and it would be for exactly what I've paid for the knife and the handle I have on it now.
> 
> but they dont post much around here anymore
> 
> everyone else would yes pay a lot more. on the other hand, I am the resident champion of "you can do what you want and accept criticism OR you can not be criticized BUT you CANNOT do both" so if people posted about me in this thread you can take it to the bank I wouldnt be in this thread acting all butthurt I got called out.


I am sure this is true and it is same for me. I will sell for even less than what I paid to some people and I have done this before and will again. I would never expect such behavior from others and I would not hold this community to such standards. It is just not realistic and not workable. I am also not about to explain the price I post when I sell something, it is buyer's responsibility to decide if my price is fair.

I think we view this place differently. I believe that the community is mostly healthy and good, there are a few bad people, but they are rare. My experiences have been very good, so maybe naively I don't think anything needs to change since it works.

I think you are more critical and depending on your experiences you might very well be correct. I haven't seen any suggestions from anyone so far that in my opinion will make this a better place, thus I am against changing what works well.


----------



## tcmx3

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I respect your opinions and I don't disagree with all of them. Just one thing, maybe we should make this Flipper Alert thread the top thread on the BST subforum. If someone is clueless enough to make those clueless purchases, there's a good chance he/she won't even look at the "The Off Topic Room" at all.



honestly I wouldnt mind having hidden ballot polls and a BST thread with a list of people who win the "is this person a flipper" vote. could give out a limited number of nominations and if you nominate someone and the poll fails you dont get to nominate for 6 months or something. maybe even limit it to a counsel (for clarity I would not be volunteering since I think a lot of people on KKF dislike me)

frankly would even be ok with public ones. I really dont care if people get mad at me personally but I could see how seeing votes could distort behavior.

anyway expect absolutely no one to be into this idea but I suspect it would curtail a lot of the behavior.


----------



## tcmx3

Barmoley said:


> I am sure this is true and it is same for me. I will sell for even less than what I paid to some people and I have done this before and will again. I would never expect such behavior from others and I would not hold this community to such standards. It is just not realistic and not workable. I am also not about to explain the price I post when I sell something, it is buyer's responsibility to decide if my price is fair.
> 
> I think we view this place differently. I believe that the community is mostly healthy and good, there are a few bad people, but they are rare. My experiences have been very good, so maybe naively I don't think anything needs to change since it works.
> 
> *I think you are more critical and depending on your experiences you might very well be correct. I haven't seen any suggestions from anyone so far that in my opinion will make this a better place, thus I am against changing what works well.*



I mean I strongly agree that if something will not solve the problem, we shouldnt do it. better to do nothing than something we know is a bad idea ahead of time.

BST has bigger issues than flippers atm but that's just me


----------



## tostadas

tcmx3 said:


> honestly I wouldnt mind having hidden ballot polls and a BST thread with a list of people who win the "is this person a flipper" vote. could give out a limited number of nominations and if you nominate someone and the poll fails you dont get to nominate for 6 months or something. maybe even limit it to a counsel (for clarity I would not be volunteering since I think a lot of people on KKF dislike me)
> 
> frankly would even be ok with public ones. I really dont care if people get mad at me personally but I could see how seeing votes could distort behavior.
> 
> anyway expect absolutely no one to be into this idea but I suspect it would curtail a lot of the behavior.


Fun things happen when you let the internet vote on stuff


----------



## tcmx3

tostadas said:


> Fun things happen when you let the internet vote on stuff



funny, though I cant see the third entry for some reason?

that said, obviously in the system suggested you would have to tie it back to a thread and it would get your privileges revoked pretty fast to pull a stunt like this. and yeah, I dont think everyone would be a voting member, in the same way councils at work dont pass out ballots to all the new hires.


----------



## rstcso

tostadas said:


> Fun things happen when you let the internet vote on stuff


What's wrong with a ship named Boaty McBoatface?


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

tcmx3 said:


> I mean I strongly agree that if something will not solve the problem, we shouldnt do it. better to do nothing than something we know is a bad idea ahead of time.
> 
> BST has bigger issues than flippers atm but that's just me


I still think it will work technically but if most good people feel bad about it, we’d probably lose more than what we gain from it. After all, who doesn’t want to live in a world where everyone is trust worthy and no regulation is needed?


----------



## Campbell

tostadas said:


> Fun things happen when you let the internet vote on stuff


The Adolf one really got me!!!!


----------



## cooktocut

Just think… if we all sold our knives and pooled our money, we could fund our own squid games and throw the flippers in there!


----------



## Migraine

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> I think you misunderstood the idea of free market. If someone has a spare grand for a nice knife, then why not?
> If you believe that seller is scammer — then it's a different thing. But then it's not about price, it's about a person being a pile of ****.



A market which doesn't allow people to comment on products for sale is not a free market.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

The prior forum I participated in allowed nothing but comments directly related to the item or transaction. No "GLWS" or "Oh man, if I only had the cash right now..." None of that. And it is quite strictly enforced.

Flippers are a constant source of aggravation there as well but if you allow comments in the sale threads it gets crazy quick and can completely destroy a legit sale by good members.

I see flippers as different than people being deceitful or deals gone south. _Those_ are the people I want to know about.


----------



## tgfencer

Hadn't realized we started a second 'KKF Counts to a Million" thread. This one might actually go the distance.


----------



## Hockey3081

HumbleHomeCook said:


> The prior forum I participated in allowed nothing but comments directly related to the item or transaction. No "GLWS" or "Oh man, if I only had the cash right now..." None of that. And it is quite strictly enforced.
> 
> Flippers are a constant source of aggravation there as well but if you allow comments in the sale threads it gets crazy quick and can completely destroy a legit sale by good members.
> 
> I see flippers as different than people being deceitful or deals gone south. _Those_ are the people I want to know about.



You hit the nail on the head with the end of your post. This thread gained traction in the summer due to the same guy as last night because of a flip. Once it started, he doubled down, raised the price, presumably as some sort of deranged power move (?) and basically proved that not only is he a flipper with no remorse, but also just a bit of a prick. Others who know him outside of here confirmed the same. This thread took off again last definitely because of the flip, but more because the flip was so flagrant, inane and rooted in deceit and idiotic logic. 

TLDR; this thread could be renamed “Flipper/Jabroni Alert”


----------



## M1k3

tgfencer said:


> Hadn't realized we started a second 'KKF Counts to a Million" thread. This one might actually go the distance.


It's going for speed.


----------



## ian

tgfencer said:


> Hadn't realized we started a second 'KKF Counts to a Million" thread. This one might actually go the distance.



Not fair. One of these threads has more regular original content than the other!


----------



## M1k3

It's all alone (all alone)


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

M1k3 said:


> It's going for speed.



Is it going the distance?


----------



## M1k3

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Is it going the distance?


All alone in it's time of need


----------



## BillHanna

Racing and pacing and plotting it’s course


----------



## alterwisser

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I think the raquin and catchside price is not that out of line. I bought the raquin yea I’m weak I know but he has made me happy today.
> 
> For the Kamon he’s just testing/making the market because there aren’t a lot Kamon on BST. If any one of you sell a Production Kamon for $400 he’d have of course listed a lower price.



I’d would sell mine for $400 any day of the week and twice on Sundays


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

alterwisser said:


> I’d would sell mine for $400 any day of the week and twice on Sundays


That's great. Then please list it and I'm sure it will sell. A competing WTS thread will also prevent potential buyers from buying from that seller.


----------



## alterwisser

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> That's great. Then please list it and I'm sure it will sell. A competing WTS thread will also prevent potential buyers from buying from that seller.



i kid you not, I thought about listing it for 150 quid when I saw that thread. BUT: I don’t have the knife with me at the moment and I don’t have any pics of it, so I can’t list it


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

BillHanna said:


> Racing and pacing and plotting it’s course



Interesting. Would you say this thread, metaphorically speaking of course, is fighting and biting and riding on its horse?


----------



## esoo

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Interesting. Would you say this thread, metaphorically speaking of course, is fighting and biting and riding on its horse?



I might say it's racing and pacing and plotting the course


----------



## daveb

Jaszer13 said:


> This is the juiciest gossip since JML got banned



Which time???




Seems like an annual thing to talk about changing the way BST here works. Suggestions invariably include:

1. We should have unmoderated comments to call out sellers and knives. This argument never addresses how the veracity of comments should be assessed. And by whom. Should the BST turn into a "pile on" of less popular members or knives? 

2. We should allow OP to post the sales thread but not allow any comments. None, zilch, nada. This actually has some appeal but would remove the community atmosphere from the thread, positive experiences with the OP or similar knives. 

3. We should institute some sort of "rating" system for sellers. This is a good bumper sticker thought but never addresses who will prepare that system, how it will be kept relevant, how to address new sellers. 

And there are others that frequently pop up.

My personal feelings as a mod is that if it's not broke, don't fix it. Briefly looking through the first 4 pages of BST threads, roughly 100 knives for sale, there are many that are of no interest to me but only two that seem flaky and a couple more that may be dubious. (And all from the same seller) I don't see a problem in BST itself that needs a solution.

(And dammit that Nogent sold that I almost bought last nite and would have 2nite and how did that 220 Marko get listed without me seeing it?)


----------



## lemeneid

He can sell that knife for 10 grand for all I came and I am fine with it. It’s free market principle anyway.

What I am not fine with is being shady with the details and not being upfront with them.

I so believe mods should step in when a sale is too shady and this guys sales obviously are. It’s just like the guy who came in with the fake genkais who was banned, why no action with this guy because he’s a sponsored member?


----------



## Hockey3081

While this has slowed down and the conversation has gone in several directions (and devolved into song), am I nuts for not believing for a second that this knife actually sold and this is just another ruse?

Couldn’t sell it sub-$1K (less than the BK production knife ), he breaks KKF and 24 hours later, someone is dumb enough to buy something?

SOLD - the.9nine Gyuto 265X57X5 Full Custom /// knife is a WITHDRAW FOR NOW


----------



## tcmx3

lemeneid said:


> He can sell that knife for 10 grand for all I came and I am fine with it.* It’s free market principle anyway.*
> 
> What I am not fine with is being shady with the details and not being upfront with them.
> 
> I so believe mods should step in when a sale is too shady and this guys sales obviously are. It’s just like the guy who came in with the fake genkais who was banned, why no action with this guy because he’s a sponsored member?



it's literally not free market if there is information asymmetry.

also we had an incident where a mod saw a thread posted with f&f and posted in it in a way that wasnt saying it was against the rules which some people will take as an endorsement of the seller, whether that's how it's meant or not it is reality.


----------



## McMan

Hockey3081 said:


> While this has slowed down and the conversation has gone in several directions (and devolved into song), am I nuts for not believing for a second that this knife actually sold and this is just another rouse?
> 
> Couldn’t sell it sub-$1K (less than the BK production knife ), he breaks KKF and 24 hours later, someone is dumb enough to buy something?
> 
> SOLD - the.9nine Gyuto 265X57X5 Full Custom /// knife is a WITHDRAW FOR NOW


He'd originally scrubbed the asking price and marked SPF. I posted that BST policy is to leave the asking price. He replied with some song and dance about it being sold external to KKF and refusing to put the price back. Thankfully, mods re-instated the price.


----------



## Todd762

I am new here, have bought off the BST and all my transactions have been flawless. I don’t have so much of a problem with someone asking ludicrous prices for a piece as I do with someone changing the terms of the sale after money was received, not honoring commitments with a maker, or sending you something not in the stated condition. Honestly if they have done any of those things or have continued the behavior then they should be banned. 

I would guess this person has experience doing this in other custom knife forums outside the kitchen knife world and brought it here. Custom kitchen knives are becoming quite popular, look at Kamon being pictured on the cover of Blade. It shows there is an increased interest in collecting kitchen knives by those who have been into custom knives for a looong time. At the DFW knife show this year I saw custom kitchen knives made by ABS MS’s that I never would of thought would make one.

You can choose not to buy a knife if you think its priced too high. If he is being deceptive in his sales in regards to condition, changing terms once he receives funds, not upholding agreements with makers, I don’t know why he hasn’t been banned.


----------



## WildBoar

He's being deceptive in the wording. Clearly hoping to hook someone who doesn't know enough yet to realize his FS post is full of BS. although hopefully most people don't need to read more than one or two lines of the post before starting to feel dirty from the greasy used car sales pitch.


----------



## Hockey3081

McMan said:


> He'd originally scrubbed the asking price and marked SPF. I posted that BST policy is to leave the asking price. He replied with some song and dance about it being sold external to KKF and refusing to put the price back. Thankfully, mods re-instated the price.



Yikes. He really did do a bit of scrubbing. Removed the post where where he dropped the price to $970 (not sure if that included GLOBAL SHIPPING). 

Reading it again, I was pleased to see him clownishly use the Raquin term of Kitchen Tractor when talking about a 9. 





__





SOLD - the.9nine Gyuto 265X57X5 Full Custom /// knife is a WITHDRAW FOR NOW


Must fund bigger projects. Link to post: ***Double click on the video for full screen. Thank you for stopping by 🙏🏼 **Asking for: $1250 obo NOW $1150 $1050 (pass on the saving on to the buyer on tax and shipping I paid on top). **Shipping CONUS **EURO customers will pay $20...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





And this douche chill inducer…



> This is just like if as if a supermodel ask you out and you buckle and asking yourself why me, well, it’s your lucky day mate. Put your big boy pants on and show her off … she won’t bite…. Maybe if you act right


----------



## cheflife15

Lmao just saw the post. Anyone saying that's an even reasonable price is insane. I had bought that same kamon production for I think 350? I think I sold it the next week on the forum for the same price or less. Luckily hsc wanted to trade for one of his zwear blades (which is about 19299228 times better anyways) .


----------



## Rangen

cheflife15 said:


> Lmao just saw the post. Anyone saying that's an even reasonable price is insane. I had bought that same kamon production for I think 350? I think I sold it the next week on the forum for the same price or less. Luckily hsc wanted to trade for one of his zwear blades (which is about 19299228 times better anyways) .



OK, but I'm sure you want his latest, Huge Damascus Of No Pedigree Maybe Made In Russia. Only $650!


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Rangen said:


> OK, but I'm sure you want his latest, Huge Damascus Of No Pedigree Maybe Made In Russia. Only $650!



Well, I mean sometimes you just need space on them wall wracks ya know?


----------



## Rangen

Nvm, he corrected and added the maker.


----------



## Rangen

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Well, I mean sometimes you just need space on them wall wracks ya know?



I've done everything I can to reinforce it, but my wall still wracks.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Rangen said:


> I've done everything I can to reinforce it, but my wall still wracks.



Since I find myself suddenly in an "all seriousness" type mood, that BS in that thread is pretty bad. Well played @ian and @Barmoley .


----------



## Hockey3081




----------



## tostadas

I'm thinking of selling one of my favorite knives, even though I like to think of it as family. It puts a smile on my face whenever I touch it. It's LNIB and never been sharpened, and only used once on a cherry tomato. I also may have misplaced the box when I was holding it and smiling. I bought it just 3 days ago from a very rare, special stock by the maker for around $700. It cuts exactly the same as my $2k custom forged knife, and has the exact same grind. 

Looking for only $600 which is a steal, for me. I'll also give 10% off to working chefs to show that I care.


----------



## ian

tostadas said:


> I'll also give 10% off to working chefs to show that I care.


----------



## Rangen

tostadas said:


> It's LNIB and never been sharpened, and only used once on a cherry tomato.



That must have been one nasty tomato.


----------



## tcmx3

tostadas said:


> I'm thinking of selling one of my favorite knives, even though I like to think of it as family. It puts a smile on my face whenever I touch it. It's LNIB and never been sharpened, and only used once on a cherry tomato. I also may have misplaced the box when I was holding it and smiling. I bought it just 3 days ago from a very rare, special stock by the maker for $700. It cuts exactly the same as my $2k custom forged knife, and has the exact same grind.
> 
> Looking for only $600 which is a steal, for me. *I'll also give 10% off to working chefs to show that I care.*



dont you steal my one redeeming quality


----------



## mpier

Without going through the particulars, I would like to shout out a couple of KKF members that made me aware of a potential situation last night that I was unaware of. Gotta love the community!!!


----------



## Hockey3081

Well my attempt to help landed me a DM that he was praying for me.


----------



## Barashka

daveb said:


> it's not broke, don't fix it


Unfortunately something is broken.
Something shady is happening that community currently can't do anything about.
Community is asking for tools to do something.
Just because we can't think of a full solution doesn't mean one does not exit or is not needed. Most people here arent technically adept to run a forum or know of capabilities of these systems. I'm sure there's a way as other communities deal with the same issues and some of them have it solved.


Imagine a year from now, someone new and excited sees a knife he wants to buy, buys a knife and then he's screwed on deal, condition and likely initial price ... Then never comes back to this forum as now entire site is not trustworthy. All because he didn't read posts from a year ago ... This is not reasonable. A forum, a most popular English forum, on a topic should have some knife of expectation of trust.


----------



## btbyrd

Meh. I think it's mostly fine as it is. 

Caveat emptor, and use Paypal G&S so you have recourse if an item does not arrive or arrives in a different condition than described/pictured. That's standard procedure for buying anything online from an individual rather than a reputable vendor. As for price, people who "overpay" for a knife were willing to pay the price asked; it was obviously worth it to them, even if, in hindsight with more knowledge, they would much rather have paid less and had a greater consumer surplus. Doing some research and not making pricey impulse purchasing decisions while ignorant are good ways to avoid that kind of situation. If you're new to the hobby, get excited about a knife on B/S/T, and end up paying more than everyone else would, it's easy to blame "the forum," shake your fist at the sky, and not come back. It's harder to realize that you were part of the problem and to own up to that.

I don't like flippers, but I'm also mostly not interested in the kinds of knives being flipped. They're collectors knives for the collector's market. I don't see why people are clutching their pearls about the fact that speculators are active in that marketplace. High demand and limited supply create these kinds of incentives, and we should expect there to also be gullible marks who have more money than sense who are willing to pay much more than they should for something they don't understand the true value of.

There's also a bunch of nonsense in this thread about how our being "a community" precludes the possibility of anyone trying to make a profit off anything they sell on the forum. I wonder if any of these people have actually lived in a community and how, exactly, they earned their living. Marketplaces are parts of communities and without profits, true community would be impossible. Want to create an impoverished dystopia? Make a rule prohibiting gains from trade.

As a general rule, the knives I sell in BST tend to be lightly used and I list them for around 80% of what I bought them for new. For knives I purchased used, I try to recoup most of my initial layout. Some knives have buyers immediately -- others will take months and a few price drops to sell. But in this hobby, I have always lost money. Then again, I'm not selling unicorns or knives that have had 5 owners and still don't have a handle and have never cut anything. If I was playing that game, my pricing strategy might be different, and I don't begrudge people who have a different approach to price than I do. I just look at the listing, think GLWS, and move on with my life.


----------



## Carl Kotte

tostadas said:


> I'm thinking of selling one of my favorite knives, even though I like to think of it as family. It puts a smile on my face whenever I touch it. It's LNIB and never been sharpened, and only used once on a cherry tomato. I also may have misplaced the box when I was holding it and smiling. I bought it just 3 days ago from a very rare, special stock by the maker for around $700. It cuts exactly the same as my $2k custom forged knife, and has the exact same grind.
> 
> Looking for only $600 which is a steal, for me. I'll also give 10% off to working chefs to show that I care.


How much for extra rust?


----------



## tostadas

Carl Kotte said:


> How much for extra rust?


It's LNIB, thank you for your comment. 

PS. Anthony Bourdain


----------



## juice

btbyrd said:


> There's also a bunch of nonsense in this thread about how our being "a community" precludes the possibility of anyone trying to make a profit off anything they sell on the forum.


I guess I missed those posts. I mostly saw stuff about people making insane profits out of noobs who know no better.


----------



## mk4pi

I used to read about this theory about how Ebay function, don't remember where actually. "There is always a bigger idiot" , quote it exactly as how I remember it. Doesn't matter how absurd the price you put on an item, eventually someone will buy it. Let's say someone sell [a candle that smell like vagina] for $10, I decide to buy it and relist it on Ebay for $20, eventually someone will buy it from me, then that person can do the same thing but at $40. The cycle can keep going forever. The entirely, direct buy from Ebay function around this. Another example is the thing with Nvidia GPU 3000 series even though everyone now which MSRP price it was announce, used to saw one 3000 series GPU sold for 10k Euro!!!

At the end of the day, the price the seller put and the price the buyer willing to pay is no one business. It is the sad truth, there is nothing anyone can do anything about it.

We do have a search feature here. In addition, our forum has contained lots of information already about prices (the rule where we the seller should list the sold price is a very good thing). We as a community, can only equip people with tool and knowledge. However, with all that info/tools and someone still decide to drop 1k, we can only say "good for them!"

Finally, off topic, if we allow a person who is know to rub on the face of the maker/ other member and still leave them to operate/making profit in our forum. That is a double FU in the face of the people who got screw over.


----------



## WildBoar

A community looks after each other. The KKF marketplace is supposed to be a convenience for forum members, but unfortunately it has evolved into something else. There are sellers who seem to not really participate anywhere outside the marketplace except maybe to hype up something they intend on listing for sale very, very soon. I would have no issues if the marketplace was eliminated. Most of the worthwhile transitions I see these days are either via email/ DMs or Instagram.


----------



## Bodine

I really enjoy looking at the market place, I dont buy much there, but it can be a source of information if you do your homework. It is up to individuals to do their own homework and decide what is a fair price to them. 
I dont get flippers at all, I have said it before and will say it again, I can take the same amount of money and invest it in other places and make much more return on investment, with far less hassle, than trading knives.
I look at the market place as a location where one can buy a knife, try it out and then pass it on to try another. It is a crappy way to make money, the %'s are just not there.


----------



## ian

WildBoar said:


> A community looks after each other. The KKF marketplace is supposed to be a convenience for forum members, but unfortunately it has evolved into something else. There are sellers who seem to not really participate anywhere outside the marketplace except maybe to hype up something they intend on listing for sale very, very soon. I would have no issues if the marketplace was eliminated. Most of the worthwhile transitions I see these days are either via email/ DMs or Instagram.



I think BST is generally fantastic. I think I've tried like 30 fancy knives in the past couple years and 90% of them were bought and sold on BST. I've bought and sold a couple via DMs, but BST is much more effective for me.


----------



## Barashka

mk4pi said:


> We as a community, can only equip people with tool and knowledge. However, with all that info/tools and someone still decide to drop 1k, we can only say "good for them!"


"equip" is a strong word, we enable people to find knowledge if they look hard enough, assuming they know that it exists and they know what to look for .. this has really high barrier to entry and is very unfriendly to beginners .. if we want to keep this forum "for people who are at least reasonably aware" .. sure, but if you want to attract new people to the hobby, we can do better.



ian said:


> I think I've tried like 30 fancy knives in the past


Absolutely agreed, BST is vital to the hobby and this wouldn't be half as fun if there wasn't for BST. I'd also argue while IG is big, BST is an easier way to go about dealing knives.


----------



## xxxclx

Hey guys, asking for advance guidance here. Is selling my Shibata Tinker tank at $1100 considered flipping? I love the knife so much that’s what it’ll take for me to part with it. The heat treat and grind are similar to my Shibata custom AS honyaki and I think the price is more than fair

appreciate any advice. thanks


----------



## applepieforbreakfast

xxxclx said:


> Hey guys, asking for advance guidance here. Is selling my Shibata Tinker tank at $1100 considered flipping? I love the knife so much that’s what it’ll take for me to part with it. The heat treat and grind are similar to my Shibata custom AS honyaki and I think the price is more than fair
> 
> appreciate any advice. thanks



Depends on who you're selling it to.


----------



## M1k3

xxxclx said:


> Hey guys, asking for advance guidance here. Is selling my Shibata Tinker tank at $1100 considered flipping? I love the knife so much that’s what it’ll take for me to part with it. The heat treat and grind are similar to my Shibata custom AS honyaki and I think the price is more than fair
> 
> appreciate any advice. thanks


It is a high demand, low volume thing. At the same time still being made, occasionally. Meh, do whatever. Just please don't double down and raise the price. And also actually have used it. Discount for cooks is alright though.


----------



## lemeneid

xxxclx said:


> Hey guys, asking for advance guidance here. Is selling my Shibata Tinker tank at $1100 considered flipping? I love the knife so much that’s what it’ll take for me to part with it. The heat treat and grind are similar to my Shibata custom AS honyaki and I think the price is more than fair
> 
> appreciate any advice. thanks


You can price it however you want, but whether it sells will depend on market forces. Don't really care about flippers, I just want honest and truthful listings.


----------



## Knivperson

lemeneid said:


> You can price it however you want, but whether it sells will depend on market forces. Don't really care about flippers, I just want honest and truthful listings.


No problem, just list the original price as well.


----------



## rogue108

I've avoided chiming in to this issue for sometime becuase it's gotten so hostile in the past. We call ourselves a family let 15-20 pages back we have members calling other members delusional and taking potshots at each other. I find this contradictory to the idea we are a family or community. I don't think we've come to a solid definition of what flipping is and who enforces is. It seem like the mob rule to me. 

I'll PM a person who has shown an interest in a knife if I think the seller is unreliable or inform them the knife is being sold for a exorbitant price in my opinion. I'll let them decide if they think I am credible source or if they don't care and willing the pay price. I agree with @lemeneid if the description is full disclosure and the buyer still wants it then it's up to them. I'm sure this contradicts what number of other members believe, but my point is I do it privately and let the seller make his own decision. Calling some out publicly in their BST thread for being a flipper (unless it's scam) or asking having members ask if their selling prices is acceptable because they don't want to be labeled flipper seems to be a bit much. I don't sell much and I think twice about using BST these days if I want to profit take on rare knife. I'll be asking more than I paid if sell my Devin Thomas ITK or Dalman but might avoid BST to avoid the flipper drama.


----------



## tostadas

@toddnmd Well played


----------



## Barmoley

rogue108 said:


> I've avoided chiming in to this issue for sometime becuase it's gotten so hostile in the past. We call ourselves a family let 15-20 pages back we have members calling other members delusional and taking potshots at each other. I find this contradictory to the idea we are a family or community. I don't think we've come to a solid definition of what flipping is and who enforces is. It seem like the mob rule to me.
> 
> I'll PM a person who has shown an interest in a knife if I think the seller is unreliable or inform them the knife is being sold for a exorbitant price in my opinion. I'll let them decide if they think I am credible source or if they don't care and willing the pay price. I agree with @lemeneid if the description is full disclosure and the buyer still wants it then it's up to them. I'm sure this contradicts what number of other members believe, but my point is I do it privately and let the seller make his own decision. Calling some out publicly in their BST thread for being a flipper (unless it's scam) or asking having members ask if their selling prices is acceptable because they don't want to be labeled flipper seems to be a bit much. I don't sell much and I think twice about using BST these days if I want to profit take on rare knife. I'll be asking more than I paid if sell my Devin Thomas ITK or Dalman but might avoid BST to avoid the flipper drama.


To be fair most people are polite and try to be constructive. I've also noticed, a swiping generalization follows, that it is mostly the newer members that are freaking out more and seeing all these potential problems and want to implement all the new rules to protect noobs. I don't know if it is because they haven't been around long enough to see that the system works well or because they came from other places where they saw all these potential problems become real or maybe they just relate to noobs more, so want to protect them. Constructive change is good when it addresses real problems. Change for the sake of change or change because someone comes to a new place and tries to fit it for themselves is a waste of time and effort.

@rogue108 your thoughts on Devin ITK and Dalman is exactly what is happening, will become worse and what I am worried about. Rare and unique knives will leave this community because of all the outrage. I am afraid that the new rules will be implemented in one way or another and the community will suffer for it. Newer members will get their perceived safety and comfort and loose opportunities in the process.


----------



## spaceconvoy

rogue108 said:


> We call ourselves a family let 15-20 pages back we have members calling other members delusional and taking potshots at each other. I find this contradictory to the idea we are a family or community.


Wait, that's not how your family is? Seems pretty normal to me


----------



## Delat

rogue108 said:


> I've avoided chiming in to this issue for sometime becuase it's gotten so hostile in the past. We call ourselves a family let 15-20 pages back we have members calling other members delusional and taking potshots at each other. I find this contradictory to the idea we are a family or community. I don't think we've come to a solid definition of what flipping is and who enforces is. It seem like the mob rule to me.
> 
> I'll PM a person who has shown an interest in a knife if I think the seller is unreliable or inform them the knife is being sold for a exorbitant price in my opinion. I'll let them decide if they think I am credible source or if they don't care and willing the pay price. I agree with @lemeneid if the description is full disclosure and the buyer still wants it then it's up to them. I'm sure this contradicts what number of other members believe, but my point is I do it privately and let the seller make his own decision. Calling some out publicly in their BST thread for being a flipper (unless it's scam) or asking having members ask if their selling prices is acceptable because they don't want to be labeled flipper seems to be a bit much. I don't sell much and I think twice about using BST these days if I want to profit take on rare knife. I'll be asking more than I paid if sell my Devin Thomas ITK or Dalman but might avoid BST to avoid the flipper drama.



I remember ages ago seeing a clip from a movie where a kid was complaining to his grams about not wanting to go to some family thing. Grams replied sternly, “That’s what family is! People who don’t like each other getting together to do things they don’t want to do!”

More seriously, I’m in favor of selling used knives at current market price. If you got a screaming deal on a knife for $300 and want to sell at the market price of $600, more power to you. I think people just get a little worked up at misleading hyperbole. Especially on a forum filled with experts on knives, to say stuff that’s blatantly misleading to further a sale is going to ruffle feathers.


----------



## tcmx3

Barmoley said:


> To be fair most people are polite and try to be constructive. I've also noticed, a swiping generalization follows, that it is mostly the newer members that are freaking out more and seeing all these potential problems and want to implement all the new rules to protect noobs. I don't know if it is because they haven't been around long enough to see that the system works well or because they came from other places where they saw all these potential problems become real or maybe they just relate to noobs more, so want to protect them.



the other side of this is that this has revealed that this place really isn't a community. so many of the older folks are the ones saying caveat emptor and "I wouldnt get taken so I dont see any need for changes". 

IMO in a community the experienced folks are looking out for the new folks. the complete opposite is on display here. this a group of collectors with some small communities mixed in of people who will work with each other but don't want any disruption because it might negatively impact them in some minor way.

this is part of a larger overall trend of not just this forum but of most forums, and it's why I think discord and reddit are leaving these places with increasingly small and aging demographics. I suppose that maybe very few people care about getting more people into it, but if I were new to all this, Id hate it here. and when I joined 6 years ago, I dont think it was the same. 6 years ago people JUMPED at opportunities to help me out, give me the heads up, etc. I just dont see that anymore


----------



## Migraine

Once again I have no issue with listings at market price or a bit above aiming to make a bit of money (or even a lot of money if they got the knife cheap). I object to a knife being listed at 3 times its market value; the ONLY reason to do that is trying to catch someone out who doesn't know better. I don't think we should be OK with such blatant attempts to rip people off being hosted here (and before anyone starts it again, this isn't a free market)


----------



## Dan E

In all respect, if someone offers a Kato WH for 1000 USD everyone seems to be totally fine with it and many would call it a deal. Those cost significantly less on the Japanese market, yet, no one screams flipper alert.

In general I heavily judge the mobbing up on sellers asking for prices above what some of us perceive as more than they’d be willing to pay. At the end of the day, this is a community of thousands of knife interested people. This means to me that we can have friendly discussions and we are helpful to another — not that I sell a knife below market demand. Asking prices, to me, have little to do with community spirit — this forum attracts way more interested people then for example eBay. I had a longer history with wristwatches than knives and there is no forum where the prices are adjusted below market based on family-like intentions.

At the end of the day the sale is entirely driven by demand. If a knife sells above retail — good for the seller, it shows that people are willing to pay. If the price is too high, it won’t move — bad luck to the seller and maybe with some adjustments it will. No one forces anyone to buy anything which seems unreasonable the then.

Ultimately, what I feel is entirely ignored in the flipper discussion, is time. A custom Yanick is offered — people are asking for purchase prices, start to calculate through quoted rates on webpages how much the seller had paid. Who takes into account that it takes (years) of getting lucky with webpage drops to even get into the book of prominent makers? How do you evaluate time — setting alarm clocks at night, failing 19/20 times to be the fastest for the purchase, the depressing persistence until a first success? If it was easy obviously everyone here could just get one themselves rather than scoping in BST. Further, How do you rate spending on the webpage drops before to eventually get into some books?

All this effort by certain individuals is completely disrespected by turning BST threads into fierce discussions pointing out that the seller might’ve paid 100 USD less himself. I’d be more than happy to pay that up price — looking at my (ongoing) 30 failed attempts to get a Raquin.


All the best,
Dan


----------



## tcmx3

Dan E said:


> In general I heavily judge the mobbing up on sellers asking for prices above what some of us perceive as more than they’d be willing to pay.



if you think the price you're asking is fair, why would you care if you get called a flipper?

these things only bother people because they know, maybe only subconsciously even, that there is some degree of truth to it.


----------



## Dan E

tcmx3 said:


> if you think the price you're asking is fair, why would you care if you get called a flipper?
> 
> these things only bother people because they know, maybe only subconsciously even, that there is some degree of truth to it.




I do not sell over market -- but I understand people who do.

I am sure they do not care being called that. What anyone should be aware of is that multiple posts in a BST pointing out "unreasonable prices" cripple buying dynamics as people who might've bought get impacted.


----------



## stringer

Dan E said:


> I do not sell over market -- but I understand people who do.
> 
> I am sure they do not care being called that. What anyone should be aware of is that multiple posts in a BST pointing out "unreasonable prices" cripple buying dynamics as people who might've bought get impacted.


How does lying about the knife affect people who buy the knife? You don't really address the dishonesty factor that many have taken issue with regardless of price.


----------



## Dan E

I did not say anything about lying. If I offer a knife for a certain price which is above retail I did not lie. If people ask me how much I paid for, then I do not think it is sensible to enforce this answer. Many knives are listed online, others can be calculated by rates.

IF - hypothetically - someone says that she/he does not ask for a bonus although that is the case, then that is incorrect.


----------



## tcmx3

Dan E said:


> I do not sell over market -- but I understand people who do.
> 
> I am sure they do not care being called that. What anyone should be aware of is that multiple posts in a BST pointing out "unreasonable prices" cripple buying dynamics as people who might've bought get impacted.



but people arent allowed to post in a BST like that. they can post here, but not in people's for sale threads.

if people ARE posting "flipped, overpriced, etc." comments in threads, and they arent getting removed, then that's a rule enforcement problem and probably one solved by folks simply clicking Report and bringing it to the moderator's attention.


----------



## Dan E

tcmx3 said:


> but people arent allowed to post in a BST like that. they can post here, but not in people's for sale threads.
> 
> if people ARE posting "flipped, overpriced, etc." comments in threads, and they arent getting removed, then that's a rule enforcement problem and probably one solved by folks simply clicking Report and bringing it to the moderator's attention.





I agree, but my point is that it 1) takes a day to clean up, and 2) the number of BST threads with removed content has increased explodingly.


----------



## M1k3

Dan E said:


> I agree, but my point is that it 1) takes a day to clean up, and 2) the number of BST threads with removed content has increased explodingly.


1) sometimes yes, sometimes no. The mods are human after all. 
2)


----------



## Dan E

No complaints about the admins — I’m happy how efficient they are. My point was that the delay does most certainly impact buying dynamics, and it’s unavoidable.


----------



## Jville

mk4pi said:


> I used to read about this theory about how Ebay function, don't remember where actually. "There is always a bigger idiot" , quote it exactly as how I remember it. Doesn't matter how absurd the price you put on an item, eventually someone will buy it. Let's say someone sell [a candle that smell like vagina] for $10, I decide to buy it and relist it on Ebay for $20, eventually someone will buy it from me, then that person can do the same thing but at $40. The cycle can keep going forever. The entirely, direct buy from Ebay function around this. Another example is the thing with Nvidia GPU 3000 series even though everyone now which MSRP price it was announce, used to saw one 3000 series GPU sold for 10k Euro!!!
> 
> At the end of the day, the price the seller put and the price the buyer willing to pay is no one business. It is the sad truth, there is nothing anyone can do anything about it.
> 
> We do have a search feature here. In addition, our forum has contained lots of information already about prices (the rule where we the seller should list the sold price is a very good thing). We as a community, can only equip people with tool and knowledge. However, with all that info/tools and someone still decide to drop 1k, we can only say "good for them!"
> 
> Finally, off topic, if we allow a person who is know to rub on the face of the maker/ other member and still leave them to operate/making profit in our forum. That is a double FU in the face of the people who got screw over.


Wait a minute, you can buy candles that smell like vagina?


----------



## big_adventure

Dan E said:


> In all respect, if someone offers a Kato WH for 1000 USD everyone seems to be totally fine with it and many would call it a deal. Those cost significantly less on the Japanese market, yet, no one screams flipper alert.



Do they really cost considerably less? I can't imagine one of those being listed somewhere for under a grand. I can't really imagine one listing for under 1500, these days. If you can find me a source for Katos under a thousand USD, I'll buy several.


----------



## lemeneid

big_adventure said:


> Do they really cost considerably less? I can't imagine one of those being listed somewhere for under a grand. I can't really imagine one listing for under 1500, these days. If you can find me a source for Katos under a thousand USD, I'll buy several.


Someone just listed a 210 WH with stones on BST for a VERY reasonable price!
But these happen once in a blue moon imo.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Dan E said:


> In all respect, if someone offers a Kato WH for 1000 USD everyone seems to be totally fine with it and many would call it a deal. Those cost significantly less on the Japanese market, yet, no one screams flipper alert.


Morihei wants 150K yen for their Kato's


----------



## big_adventure

Corradobrit1 said:


> Morihei wants 150K yen for their Kato's



Yeah, that's pretty much the Kato price now if you can find one for sale. Morihei's site just says "please contact us."


----------



## Matus

For what it's worth - you can buy a 'standard' Kato (nowadays apparently in blue#2) from different sources/shops, but you can buy the WH variant (made out of literally unknown steel and slightly larger at given size than the 'standard one') only from JNS.


----------



## Ochazuke

I mean, it seems like overall we're all talking about a few different types of sellers. One type is the person why buys knives, uses them, and sells them. Another is the person who buys knives, doesn't use them, and sells them.

The first type tends to resell at a lower price because they recognize that used goods lose value, especially when considering that the grind, profile, etc is often modified during use. The second type tends to resell at a higher price because they're specifically looking for rare, high-end, or collector pieces.

I don't think most forum members have huge problems with either type of seller. However, there is a sort of social etiquette that forum members tend to prefer for each type of sale. One part of the friction is the conflation of the two types of sales and sellers. In addition, I think what's happened is we've seen very specific examples of people a.) misrepresenting condition of sales, b.) obscuring the origin of a knife with the intent to make a profit, and c.) very clearly buying something and then immediately trying to sell it solely with the intention of making a profit. I think a lot of people have a very visceral reaction to this because it _feels _sleazy. And I want to point out that this is different from being a collector selling collector pieces. Somebody purely in to the game of buying and selling for profit is a flipper, not a collector. Being a collector selling at market price is different from being a flipper. Granted there is a lot of gray area here and it's not always easy to differentiate the two - most of the difference is in motive which is difficult to discern. But I think generally the collector's interest lie in the collection (and by proxy the community), whereas the flipper's interest is more squarely on the money.

I also think that part of the alarmism regarding flipping is because as the hobby gains more widespread acceptance, we're likely to see more activity with sleazy folks attempting to pull fast ones and make shady deals. We've seen a handful just in the past week alone. And I don't think anybody wants BST to be littered with these kinds of sales for all the reasons already mentioned by others above. I also don't have any answers or suggested changes, but I do think that many people were talking apples and oranges about these different types of sales and sellers. Right now, while frustrating, the problem may still be small enough to not warrant any changes. I do think that it's good to be able to have open-minded discussions regarding the problem though - if only to have a wide variety of potential solutions at hand should we come to need them.


----------



## Jovidah

Jville said:


> How did I know it would be that guy, before I even saw the ad. That guy should get complete crickets or a flood of GLWS! with massive  emojis. Geeze!


Same... before even seeing the Kamon thread, when I saw a few of these 'flipper spotted' posts I had a distinct suspicion who this was all about.

Question is: why isn't this guy banned yet? He's basically abusing a community where trades are done in good faith for his own financial gain. It's just a parasite. Why put up with that?? It's completely contrary to the spirit of a place like this.

Can't wait for the day someone tries to sell weapons grade uranium here, mods deleting any protest against it because '_it's not explicitly forbidden under the forum rules, therefore it is allowed_'.



Jville said:


> People crack me up talking about how it’s a “free market” here on KKF. If it was truly a free market, you could say “ hey you are full of s/&! and your price is ridiculous” without all this censorship. And that person could say what they wanted and people would buy or not buy. And his price is flipping ridiculous!!!! No buts ands about it.


This problem came up before. A free remarket also requires free exchange of information to function.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Matus said:


> WH variant (made out of literally unknown steel and slightly larger at given size than the 'standard one') only from JNS.


Is that still the case? My understanding was that source was exhausted a couple of years ago


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Jovidah said:


> Same... before even seeing the Kamon thread, when I saw a few of these 'flipper spotted' posts I had a distinct suspicion who this was all about.
> 
> Question is: why isn't this guy banned yet? He's basically abusing a community where trades are done in good faith for his own financial gain. It's just a parasite. Why put up with that?? It's completely contrary to the spirit of a place like this.
> 
> Can't wait for the day someone tries to sell weapons grade uranium here, mods deleting any protest against it because '_it's not explicitly forbidden under the forum rules, therefore it is allowed_'.
> 
> 
> This problem came up before. A free remarket also requires free exchange of information to function.



If I'm understanding the situation correctly, he made a sale to an active forum member within the past few days. So, at least _someone_ is okay with _some_ of his sales.


----------



## Jovidah

Dhoff said:


> Well, if it was possible, a system where buyer and seller both acknowledged a buy had taken place/ was about to take place and a possibility to review on both ends would at least warn if a seller or buyer multiple times perform in ill faith.
> 
> Likely too hard to program though
> 
> Edit: A more radical suggestion could be banning when such an amount of makers and other members clearly state a person is not doing business in good faith.


A simple 'buyer / seller' review corner could work. The German KMS forum has something like that; though it might be a bit of work to maintain given the higher throughput on this forum.


----------



## Matus

Corradobrit1 said:


> Is that still the case? My understanding was that source was exhausted a couple of years ago



Source of what?


----------



## Jovidah

alterwisser said:


> i kid you not, I thought about listing it for 150 quid when I saw that thread. BUT: I don’t have the knife with me at the moment and I don’t have any pics of it, so I can’t list it


Dibs for 150. Would even go as high as 175. Pinky swear I won't put it on BST for 800 dollars the week after.


----------



## Jovidah

daveb said:


> Which time???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like an annual thing to talk about changing the way BST here works. Suggestions invariably include:
> 
> 1. We should have unmoderated comments to call out sellers and knives. This argument never addresses how the veracity of comments should be assessed. And by whom. Should the BST turn into a "pile on" of less popular members or knives?



Just wondering out loud here, but have we had problems in the past when anything was allowed in B/S/T? Are people really so childish as to try and sabotage sales thread without genuine reason or just cause just to smear other members? You'd think if there's a free exchange of information, other members would be capable of correcting such attempts?
I'm kinda struggling to imagine any major disasters resulting from loosening the reins, but maybe I just give humanity too much credit...


----------



## Barmoley

Matus said:


> Source of what?


Of unknown Kato steel in Kato WH. Rumor has it all Kato are blue 2 now, but who really knows and does it really matter.


----------



## Barmoley

Jovidah said:


> Just wondering out loud here, but have we had problems in the past when anything was allowed in B/S/T? Are people really so childish as to try and sabotage sales thread without genuine reason or just cause just to smear other members? You'd think if there's a free exchange of information, other members would be capable of correcting such attempts?
> I'm kinda struggling to imagine any major disasters resulting from loosening the reins, but maybe I just give humanity too much credit...


I've posted this before, my sale was sabotaged by a well meaning, clueless member. Not a big deal ultimately, but it was good that the mods stepped in and removed his posts. Given our tendencies of pilling on and in general being moral warriors allowing anything in BST doesn't sound like a good idea.


----------



## Matus

To my knowledge (whatever that means) are Kato WH knives still made out of steel that not even Kato himself knows what it really is.


----------



## daveb

Jovidah said:


> ust wondering out loud here, but have we had problems in the past when anything was allowed in B/S/T?



Yep.

My very unscientific, very simplistic, observation, supported by no citable data is that bst roughly divides into two groups.

(1) Newer buyers looking to pick up a good knife without going full retail and / or one that is out of stock at traditional suppliers. And members looking to move solid knives that don't see much use currently.

(2) Members looking for unicorns and members looking to part with a unicorn to buy another unicorn.

Negative comments will tank a sale among the first group as buyers are looking for reassurance and are less likely to take on risk. This is part of the reason positive comments about the knife or seller are permitted.

Negative comments may not affect the second group as much, these sellers / buyers pretty much know what they have / want. The sellers in this group are usually longer term members with established reputations though positive comments about the seller may help. 

And of course individuals may be in both groups depending on the knife.


----------



## juice

Jovidah said:


> Question is: why isn't this guy banned yet?


Supporting member, yeah?


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

Matus said:


> To my knowledge (whatever that means) are Kato WH knives still made out of steel that not even Kato himself knows what it really is.



Yea I have an old one from maybe 5 years ago and a recent k-tip one. I've sharpened both several times and couldn't really say they are different. They are both brittle, a little difficult to sharpen with good but not fantastic retention. The edges I got from the same stone are usually similar too. I can't say for sure they are same but they definitely share a lot characteristics in common. They feel like some brittle and hard blue 1/2 steel to me.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

HumbleHomeCook said:


> If I'm understanding the situation correctly, he made a sale to an active forum member within the past few days. So, at least _someone_ is okay with _some_ of his sales.


Yes I really like the Raquin he sold to me. It feels like it's made by a love child of Kato and Toyama using Shig steel but made it tougher. Don't know if I am making sense but that's a good knife.


----------



## brimmergj

daveb said:


> (2) Members looking for unicorns and members looking to part with a unicorn to buy another unicorn.


I keep looking for these unicorns for sale and all I ever see are knives; lots and lots of knives, and some rocks too.


----------



## tcmx3

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Yea I have an old one from maybe 5 years ago and a recent k-tip one. I've sharpened both several times and couldn't really say they are different. They are both brittle, a little difficult to sharpen with good but not fantastic retention. The edges I got from the same stone are usually similar too. I can't say for sure they are same but they definitely share a lot characteristics in common. They feel like some brittle and hard blue 1/2 steel to me.



yeah what makes a Kato good isnt the steel IMO, it's the grind, weight and the profile. really just the best Ive ever gotten my hands on wrt those 3 things. JMO though. that said, I make more on my index funds on a good day than Id make selling my Kato for a profit, so I dont really understand the whole trying to make money flipping a knife or two here. if you want to make money, Id imagine you'd have to do retail volume, but then you'd be in retail


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

juice said:


> Supporting member, yeah?


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

tcmx3 said:


> yeah what makes a Kato good isnt the steel IMO, it's the grind, weight and the profile. really just the best Ive ever gotten my hands on wrt those 3 things. JMO though. that said, I make more on my index funds on a good day than Id make selling my Kato for a profit, so I dont really understand the whole trying to make money flipping a knife or two here. if you want to make money, Id imagine you'd have to do retail volume, but then you'd be in retail


I think it's more about personality. I've seen enough people who will try to "optimize" every move they make financially.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

tcmx3 said:


> yeah what makes a Kato good isnt the steel IMO, it's the grind, weight and the profile. really just the best Ive ever gotten my hands on wrt those 3 things. JMO though. that said, I make more on my index funds on a good day than Id make selling my Kato for a profit, so I dont really understand the whole trying to make money flipping a knife or two here. if you want to make money, Id imagine you'd have to do retail volume, but then you'd be in retail


Yes I like Toyama/denka steel better but Kato grind/weight distribution is really brilliant. It feels so natural and comfortable (thick and super wide neck) in the hand, and using Kato for up-down chopping almost feels like using a Chinese cleaver which is up-down chopping champion IMHO. The reactivity of the cladding is too crazy for humid summer so now it's my winter knife.


----------



## Matus

juice said:


> Supporting member, yeah?



Sorry, but no.


----------



## Midsummer

tcmx3 said:


> yeah what makes a Kato good isnt the steel IMO, it's the grind, weight and the profile. really just the best Ive ever gotten my hands on wrt those 3 things. JMO though. that said, I make more on my index funds on a good day than Id make selling my Kato for a profit, so I dont really understand the whole trying to make money flipping a knife or two here. if you want to make money, Id imagine you'd have to do retail volume, but then you'd be in retail





Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Yes I like Toyama/denka steel better but Kato grind/weight distribution is really brilliant. It feels so natural and comfortable (thick and super wide neck) in the hand, and using Kato for up-down chopping almost feels like using a Chinese cleaver which is up-down chopping champion IMHO. The reactivity of the cladding is too crazy for humid summer so now it's my winter knife.



These quotes remind me that many of the guys here have full time jobs and families. With all that responsibility they can only devote a few hours a week in the kitchen cutting product for their families, unless they are in the business or throwing food away. 

There really is not enough time to try all the knives for long enough to truly understand the differences. I mean how many nights do you cut multiple proteins and multiple vegetables?

I admire the drive to understand the differences between the Toyama, Denka, Kato, honyaki? western?

But which flipper were we talking about?


----------



## tcmx3

Midsummer said:


> These quotes remind me that many of the guys here have full time jobs and families. With all that responsibility they can only devote a few hours a week in the kitchen cutting product for their families, unless they are in the business or throwing food away.
> 
> There really is not enough time to try all the knives for long enough to truly understand the differences. I mean how many nights do you cut multiple proteins and multiple vegetables?
> 
> I admire the drive to understand the differences between the Toyama, Denka, Kato, honyaki? western?
> 
> But which flipper were we talking about?



full time job here (not in a kitchen), and had to cook for a picky eater. that said, I stare at a screen all day, so for me cooking every night is a bit of an escape/stress blow off.

in my case Ive had some of my knives for more than half a decade and put a lot of miles on them in that time. in that time the number of people in my house has ranged from 1 to 4 so I have had periods of cutting loads of stuff up.

and some of it is just like, if you use a knife for a month you'll know whether it works for the things you like to use a knife for. if a knife wedges in apples or cracks carrots, it wont work for me. also when you thin knives you learn a LOT about them. but then Im also saying I better understand the differences in grinds, balance, weight, etc. than I personally do for edge retention. Im in the camp of folks who cant really tell one steel from another on the board.


----------



## Midsummer

Great Hobby and flippers harsh the vibe....


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

Midsummer said:


> These quotes remind me that many of the guys here have full time jobs and families. With all that responsibility they can only devote a few hours a week in the kitchen cutting product for their families, unless they are in the business or throwing food away.
> 
> There really is not enough time to try all the knives for long enough to truly understand the differences. I mean how many nights do you cut multiple proteins and multiple vegetables?
> 
> I admire the drive to understand the differences between the Toyama, Denka, Kato, honyaki? western?
> 
> But which flipper were we talking about?


Not a pro here but I’m guilty for throwing food away.  I’ve been working from home for a couple of years (yea even before the pandemic) and I’ve been cooking 1-2 times a day (my wife doesn’t cook). Cutting and sharpening is sometimes just a break for me during the day work so I threw away a lot carrots, potatoes and onions. I shared some videos showing me cutting giant carrots and other produce before but I’m ashamed to admit there are a lot more than that. I make video for almost every knife I got but I won’t share it if the knife doesn’t cut well (maybe with exception to one that compares denka and konosuke FM for giant carrots). Also thinning knife help me understand the limit of the steel. My first Kato WH is 10 gram lighter in a year. And there are some others that I’ve removed 10+ grams steel from. And reprofile, regind, rehandle. It’s just fun. At this point if I don’t like a knife I just sell it. Like you said I already too many knives to make enough use of them. Maybe after I use the current set for a couple of more years a lot of my point of views will change.


----------



## Hockey3081

So this died down and I assume the main character this centered around hasn’t been able to sell his stuff like he had hoped. I think a lot of the agitation here was because of how shady his wording was. 

Knife just got posted to BST. So my question is how people here feel when a member isn’t a d-bag and posts previous sale links for transparency including the one where the current knife was likely purchased for at least $250 less than the current seller’s price. Is it an “acceptable” flip because of the transparency and if he doesn’t sell, then he doesn’t sell? Or is a flip a flip a flip and truly frowned upon regardless of how transparent the seller is?


----------



## KnightKnightForever

Hockey3081 said:


> So this died down and I assume the main character this centered around hasn’t been able to sell his stuff like he had hoped. I think a lot of the agitation here was because of how shady his wording was.
> 
> Knife just got posted to BST. So my question is how people here feel when a member isn’t a d-bag and posts previous sale links for transparency including the one where the current knife was likely purchased for at least $250 less than the current seller’s price. Is it an “acceptable” flip because of the transparency and if he doesn’t sell, then he doesn’t sell? Or is a flip a flip a flip and truly frowned upon regardless of how transparent the seller is?



I’m selling it at that price because that’s what it sold for in the first sale, and in the second sale he seemed to be in a hurry. If no one wants to buy at $1350, I’ll be more than willing to come down. Seems a little dramatic to rush here to post this 15 minutes after my posting, though.


----------



## Hockey3081

KnightKnightForever said:


> I’m selling it at that price because that’s what it sold for in the first sale, and in the second sale he seemed to be in a hurry. If no one wants to buy at $1350, I’ll be more than willing to come down. Seems a little dramatic to rush here to post this 15 minutes after my posting, though.



There’s a reason I didn’t post the link because people could look if they wanted to. I was genuinely curious and was clear that you were more than transparent which was the polar opposite of what kept this thread going for days.


EDIT: Got a PM from someone and wanted to make sure that I didn’t bring this up to incite anything or slam the seller (hence why I didn’t provide the link or make the knife). I really wanted to know what the line was here because it almost got blurred since the other fella created his own reputation which is likely to cause at least some biases.


----------



## M1k3

Hockey3081 said:


> There’s a reason I didn’t post the link because people could look if they wanted to. I was genuinely curious and was clear that you were more than transparent which was the polar opposite of what kept this thread going for days.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Got a PM from someone and wanted to make sure that I didn’t bring this up to incite anything or slam the seller (hence why I didn’t provide the link or make the knife). I really wanted to know what the line was here because it almost got blurred since the other fella created his own reputation which is likely to cause at least some biases.


Little backstory on the recent seller (not KnightyNightForever) that everyone was up in arms about.

Made BST post, high price.
People complained.
Seller raised price. 
Offered discount for cooks 
People complained.
Mod(s) stepped in.
Seller doubled down.
People complained.

Now he's trying again


----------



## WiriWiri

Hockey3081 said:


> There’s a reason I didn’t post the link because people could look if they wanted to. I was genuinely curious and was clear that you were more than transparent which was the polar opposite of what kept this thread going for days.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Got a PM from someone and wanted to make sure that I didn’t bring this up to incite anything or slam the seller (hence why I didn’t provide the link or make the knife). I really wanted to know what the line was here because it almost got blurred since the other fella created his own reputation which is likely to cause at least some biases.



I don’t think most would have a problem with that - it’s convenient enough for all but the most lethargic of buyers to click on the links and take an appropriate, informed course of action. No hoodwinking funny business here.

It does make me feel a little less warm and fuzzy about KnightKnightF, but he can live with some of my minor karmic angst given his positive kickstarter antics elsewhere. He’s no flipping villain, nor a very good conman In waiting with that transparency lark. I’d reckon I’d take him in poker for sure.


----------



## LostHighway

Hockey3081 said:


> Knife just got posted to BST. So my question is how people here feel when a member isn’t a d-bag and posts previous sale links for transparency including the one where the current knife was likely purchased for at least $250 less than the current seller’s price. Is it an “acceptable” flip because of the transparency and if he doesn’t sell, then he doesn’t sell? Or is a flip a flip a flip and truly frowned upon regardless of how transparent the seller is?



As you are probably aware there are no formal rules regarding pricing here. You'll get almost as many different answers regarding what is right or acceptable as the number of people you ask. I will, however, say that that there is some sense of genuine community among many of the people who have been active on KKF for several years. Read that as you will.


----------



## WiriWiri

M1k3 said:


> Little backstory on the recent seller (not KnightyNightForever) that everyone was up in arms about.
> 
> Made BST post, high price.
> People complained.
> Seller raised price.
> Offered discount for cooks
> People complained.
> Mod(s) stepped in.
> Seller doubled down.
> People complained.
> 
> Now he's trying again



That guy is a panto villain, but one day I fear he might find a weak link, some patsy new to the game (or me just back from the pub)


----------



## WiriWiri

LostHighway said:


> As you are probably aware there are no formal rules regarding pricing here. You'll get almost as many different answers regarding what is right, or acceptable as the number of people you ask. I will, however, say that that there is some sense of genuine community among many of the people who have been active on KKF for several years. Read that as you will.



I didn’t take it as cynical, more a bit silly - I think KnightKnight just likes to natter. It invites bartering down to the previous price, which I’m far too British to do ffs. BST is not a bazaar!
<snorts and puts cup of tea down extra hard>


----------



## Delat

Hockey3081 said:


> So this died down and I assume the main character this centered around hasn’t been able to sell his stuff like he had hoped. I think a lot of the agitation here was because of how shady his wording was.
> 
> Knife just got posted to BST. So my question is how people here feel when a member isn’t a d-bag and posts previous sale links for transparency including the one where the current knife was likely purchased for at least $250 less than the current seller’s price. Is it an “acceptable” flip because of the transparency and if he doesn’t sell, then he doesn’t sell? Or is a flip a flip a flip and truly frowned upon regardless of how transparent the seller is?



Seems like he’s selling it at market rate with full transparency and an accurate description vs 2x market price with a misleading description. I’m not even raising an eyebrow.


----------



## KnightKnightForever

I bought a lot of knives recently to use and try, and the ones I don’t prefer I’m going to list here over the next month or two. I’m pretty keen on keeping a smaller, targeted collection vs a larger collection. So if it looks like flipping, I’m sorry. But, in reality I just want to own 4-5 vs. 10. Just for the sake of being on the up and up, however, I brought the price of the knife down.


----------



## esoo

M1k3 said:


> Little backstory on the recent seller (not KnightyNightForever) that everyone was up in arms about.
> 
> Made BST post, high price.
> People complained.
> Seller raised price.
> Offered discount for cooks
> People complained.
> Mod(s) stepped in.
> Seller doubled down.
> People complained.
> 
> Now he's trying again



You're missing the part where vendors/makers have also commented that there have been some dealings with said seller that have not gone as expected.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

Hockey3081 said:


> I was genuinely curious and was clear that you were more than transparent which was the polar opposite of what kept this thread going for days.


I think there are 3 types of opinions here,

A. Flipping is flipping, with or without transparent information, and flipping should not be encouraged. After all this is a "flipper alert" thread, not a "shady wording alert" or "scammer alert" thread.

B. As long as the selling price and the transaction is fair, profits should be allowed. The fair price is usually determined by the retailor price or commonly seen BST price, whichever is more prevalent (the rarer the item, the more likely it's the BST price). Some of these type don't consider themselves flippers even if the knife is being sold for a $200 profit within 2 months from the purchase.

C. This is a free market and people should have rights to buy/sell at any price and the market will determine what a fair price is. We just need to make sure the market is working properly (transparent and accurate information, anti-scam, etc.).

I think type B is the majority here by itself and plus type A takes B as an acceptable compromise so B is dominating this thread and the forum. C opinion is criticized because some believe without free negative comments, the market is not really "free" and cannot work properly. Some of type C argue that it is the buyer's responsibility to do the due diligence. Some of type C (like myself) suggests to add additional BST rules to ensure a fully informed transaction (like showing the proof/source of purchase).


----------



## Rangen

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I think there are 3 types of opinions here,



4.

D. True members of the community can make their own best judgment about how to price their knives, and should be left alone. Parasites who are here to prey on the community deserve scorn and anything else that comes their way.

I admit that sorting that out may be beyond what can be accomplished with rules. But since it is just an opinion, it doesn't need to bear that burden.


----------



## TSF415

I see no issue. My two issues with flippers in the past have been.

One member getting dirt cheap deals on bst and then reselling for a much higher price. He wasn’t doing anything wrong. I only called attention to that one because I thought people should be aware of not giving out great deals to the community if someone is just going to use it to profit.

and the other and more recent was what seemed like a fairly deceiving post riding the coattails of a mass drop.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz

Rangen said:


> 4.
> 
> D. True members of the community can make their own best judgment about how to price their knives, and should be left alone. Parasites who are here to prey on the community deserve scorn and anything else that comes their way.
> 
> I admit that sorting that out may be beyond what can be accomplished with rules. But since it is just an opinion, it doesn't need to bear that burden.


I think your D is just Type B confusing the activity of flipping with dishonest selling, which surely deserves being calling out but not because it’s flipping.


----------



## Hockey3081

All good perspectives fellas. I think the testament to the difference between this scenario (which again, I tried to show the dichotomy of scenarios) is the civility in the opinions given. Gives me some proof that the aforementioned villain created his own bed. Extra chuckles for bumping that Kamon production knife thread recently.


----------



## Bico Doce

I’m big cycling fan and in the sport (as well as others) there are some unwritten rules that are generally adhered as a sign of sportsmanship and respect, such as not attacking when the race leader is taking a piss.

It would seem that BST may have some unwritten rules - such as buying a knife and turning it around for a modest profit in a relatively short time.

I would love to hear some other “unwritten” rules by those who have BST’ing for a while


----------



## tostadas

Bico Doce said:


> I’m big cycling fan and in the sport (as well as others) there are some unwritten rules that are generally adhered as a sign of sportsmanship and respect, such as not attacking when the race leader is taking a piss.
> 
> It would seem that BST may have some unwritten rules - such as buying a knife and turning it around for a modest profit in a relatively short time.
> 
> I would love to hear some other “unwritten” rules by those who have BST’ing for a while


I generally frown upon those that force patinas by peeing on their knives.


----------



## Bico Doce

tostadas said:


> I generally frown upon those that force patinas by peeing on their knives.


Noted! That explains why my knives aren’t selling…


----------



## Delat

Bico Doce said:


> I’m big cycling fan and in the sport (as well as others) there are some unwritten rules that are generally adhered as a sign of sportsmanship and respect, such as not attacking when the race leader is taking a piss.
> 
> It would seem that BST may have some unwritten rules - such as buying a knife and turning it around for a modest profit in a relatively short time.
> 
> I would love to hear some other “unwritten” rules by those who have BST’ing for a while



Somehow I was hearing this post in a British context and was wondering why the leader would be telling jokes during a race and also why others in the race would want to attack him for taking the piss.


----------



## tcmx3

my recommendation to folks who are thinking about posting about a BST listing in this thread is to ask yourself the question "is this a pattern?"


----------



## Bico Doce

Delat said:


> Somehow I was hearing this post in a British context and was wondering why the leader would be telling jokes during a race and also why others in the race would want to attack him for taking the piss.


Apologies! I have heard that phrase on British television more than once but failed to realize the double meaning behind my post


----------



## Luftmensch

Bico Doce said:


> taking *a* piss.





Delat said:


> taking *the* piss.





Youve got it... the (in)definite article plays an important role in disambiguation.

I remember in one Tour, there was some charity type raffle where you could win one of the contenders bikes.... I am not sure how authentic they wanted the experience to be... presumably the bike got a good hosing down. Or perhaps it was an unused spare... or a steed from a shorter leg


----------



## Mikeadunne

Is no one gonna make a pee-tina joke?!


----------



## Luftmensch

Mikeadunne said:


> Is no one gonna make a pee-tina joke?!



Ive been known to tinkle around with humour. I had a wee one in mind... but honestly... Im not a whizz at making puns.


----------



## ian




----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Luftmensch said:


> Ive been known to tinkle around with humour. I had a wee one in mind... but honestly... Im not a whizz at making puns.



A steady stream of humor right there.


----------



## Luftmensch

ian said:


>


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

@BillHanna is not going to be happy with these recent posts.


----------



## BillHanna

I tried to look away


----------



## ian

BillHanna said:


> I tried to look away



Join me, brother, in my angry reactions.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

ian said:


> Join me, brother, in my angry reactions.



Ah Ian, don't be a wet blanket.


----------



## BillHanna




----------



## ian

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Ah Ian, don't be a wet blanket.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Uh oh @Luftmensch, urine trouble.


----------



## BillHanna

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Uh oh @Luftmensch, urine trouble.


Reported.


----------



## BillHanna




----------



## tostadas

These comments are golden


----------



## Luftmensch

I find all this negativity rather draining. Kind of makes me feel like I gotta go...


----------



## WildBoar

I see no one else here seems to have a rule about buying poop knives. It would seem that only peed-on knives are verboten.


----------



## Dhoff

This thread is truly beginnning to piss me off, I feel like people are milking it to the last drop and the punishment is getting unreal.

Everyone is suddenly a wizard, just let that sink in and flush it down with some whiskey.

I will see myself out and find a pisstol to shoot myself.

I know it was a bit tryhard, but sometimes its really hard getting it out.


----------



## Rangen

Dhoff said:


> This thread is truly beginnning to piss me off, I feel like people are milking it to the last drop and the punishment is getting unreal.
> 
> Everyone is suddenly a wizard, just let that sink in and flush it down with some whiskey.
> 
> I will see myself out and find a pisstol to shoot myself.
> 
> I know it was a bit tryhard, but sometimes its really hard getting it out.



Sometimes you just need to shake it off.


----------



## sliceanddicebaby

but god forbid someone sells a highly in-demand piece from a western maker at the same (egregious) markup


----------



## AT5760

Umm, where can I get that one? That's in my price range


----------



## Pointless1

Rangen said:


> Sometimes you just need to shake it off.


I was going to say something pithy, but I got stage fright.


----------



## Jeff

Hockey3081 said:


> So this died down and I assume the main character this centered around hasn’t been able to sell his stuff like he had hoped. I think a lot of the agitation here was because of how shady his wording was.
> 
> Knife just got posted to BST. So my question is how people here feel when a member isn’t a d-bag and posts previous sale links for transparency including the one where the current knife was likely purchased for at least $250 less than the current seller’s price. Is it an “acceptable” flip because of the transparency and if he doesn’t sell, then he doesn’t sell? Or is a flip a flip a flip and truly frowned upon regardless of how transparent the seller is?




I understand both sides.

A while back I was negotiating to buy a knife on this site. A “sideline popcorn eater” jumped in arguing that seller should not lower price because the popcorn eater had the same knife and paid more for it!

OMG, all he wanted to do was interfere to artificially inflate the market value of his knife!

Popcorn eater had no interest in the transaction.

IMHO that is also a problem.

Net result … popcorn eater’s interference in the potential sale ended attempts to buy the knife and I went another direction … not in the forum.

So the sideline commentary hurt the potential of a successful transaction on this site.


----------



## ian

.


----------



## TSF415

Nevermind


----------



## Barmoley

ian said:


> .


Best point so far.


----------



## Hassanbensober

Price of Kato knives are crazy that has been established. Are these still being produced? How many of these can there be floating around? Asking for a friend


----------



## BillHanna

Imma just get a horse carriage horse tattoo. My very own priceless workhorse.


----------



## Barmoley

I'd say there are significantly more Katos than any of the single, popular western maker. Just a guess based on what I've seen around here.


----------



## tostadas

At what point would a member be required to have a vendor account if their posted sales are all supposedly "new" items with markups?

Isn't that the definition of a vendor?


----------



## xxxclx

tostadas said:


> At what point would a member be required to have a vendor account if their posted sales are all supposedly "new" items with markups?
> 
> Isn't that the definition of a vendor?



But they are new! Never cut a thing with it!

”cuts like a dream”


----------



## SirCutAlot

A pee joke ?

American beer is like sex in a canoe, ****in close to the water 

SirCutAlot


----------



## tcmx3

xxxclx said:


> But they are new! Never cut a thing with it!
> 
> ”cuts like a dream”



an honest accounting of how the knife cuts would probably make a pretty sizable percentage of things not sell.


----------



## Hassanbensober

There is clearly thumbprint patina on the knife you claim has never been used. Not even a good fibber.
It’s all about the man behind the sale!


----------



## McMan

Hassanbensober said:


> There is clearly thumbprint patina on the knife you claim has never been used. Not even a good fibber.
> It’s all about the man behind the sale!


Good point.

Micro-chips too?


----------



## tostadas

McMan said:


> Good point.
> 
> Micro-chips too?
> View attachment 148499


Those must be from smiling too hard


----------



## Corradobrit1

McMan said:


> Good point.
> 
> Micro-chips too?
> View attachment 148499


Sorry "No, that’s how the coloring on the clad ended up to be as each blade is different." LOL


----------



## McMan

tostadas said:


> Those must be from smiling too hard


They're there only through the weekend. Then, after the weekend, the knife edge goes back to being pristine and unused again.


----------



## spaceconvoy

Corradobrit1 said:


> Sorry "No, that’s how the coloring on the clad ended up to be as each blade is different." LOL


aka, 'rust'


----------



## TSF415

Come on guys this knife deserves for you to pay me more for it.


----------



## Corradobrit1

TSF415 said:


> Come on guys this knife deserves for you to pay me more for it.


I will not buy this


----------



## crockerculinary

Hassanbensober said:


> There is clearly thumbprint patina on the knife you claim has never been used. Not even a good fibber.
> It’s all about the man behind the sale!



Personally I think someone who has been shown to lie about condition multiple times like this should be banned from selling on bst.


----------



## juice

crockerculinary said:


> Personally I think someone who has been shown to lie about condition multiple times like this should be banned from selling on bst.


LOL, as if. You can't even comment on the BST thread! (And they contribute, so...)


----------



## WildBoar

It is without a doubt a very big frustration. It's as if KKF exists to mainly to be a marketplace, versus the marketplace being a convenient item for community members. I keep up with some current (and past) KKF members more through IG these days than through KKF. For the life of me I don't understand all the protections that are in place for opportunistic sellers. Is it worth it for a whopping $1?


----------



## Rangen

I don't know if anyone is intending to hint that the proprietors and moderators are selling their souls, and selling out the forum, for Supporting Member fees, but if so I don't believe a word of it. Getting rules and processes right is really hard.


----------



## WildBoar

It's really about if this is a community that has a marketplace, or a marketplace that has a community.


----------



## Rangen

WildBoar said:


> It's really about if this is a community that has a marketplace, or a marketplace that has a community.



That abstract distinction, I can agree with wholeheartedly. I think it's the mostly former, but as in my field, edge cases are a problem. A sufficiently determined jailhouse lawyer can usually find loopholes. 

My own conjecture is that the best solution would not come from rule changes, but from a clearly labeled thread for feedback on buyers and sellers. I can tell you that if I were new here, I would not check out a thread called "Flipper Alert" as part of my due diligence. But a sticky in BST called "Feedback on Buyers and Sellers," that I would check out every time.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

WildBoar said:


> It is without a doubt a very big frustration. It's as if KKF exists to mainly to be a marketplace, versus the marketplace being a convenient item for community members. I keep up with some current (and past) KKF members more through IG these days than through KKF. For the life of me I don't understand all the protections that are in place for opportunistic sellers. Is it worth it for a whopping $1?



With all due respect, and I really mean that, I think you're vastly over reacting. There's one or two suspect folks in BST that pop up but I very much feel like this is a community. The overwhelming majority of interactions are outside of BST and I see all kinds of awesome stuff happening in the various sub-forums.

Recipes being shared, cooking tips/tricks, awesome pictures, knife recommendations and reviews, kitchen gear reviews, and a lot more.

I can only speak for myself, but BST is very much a side part of the overall forum for me. A valuable one that I am really glad is here, but just a small portion of the greater experience.

It doesn't take much of a used car-salesman radar to raise your neck hairs about a couple sellers.


----------



## Rangen

HumbleHomeCook said:


> It doesn't take much of a used car-salesman radar to raise your neck hairs about a couple sellers.



That is an incredibly sexy post! It makes me smile every time I read it! I was going to charge you $100 for reading it, but I will give you a discount because you are a home cook. $97.99! Limited time offer!


----------



## tcmx3

HumbleHomeCook said:


> With all due respect, and I really mean that, I think you're vastly over reacting. There's one or two suspect folks in BST that pop up but I very much feel like this is a community. The overwhelming majority of interactions are outside of BST and I see all kinds of awesome stuff happening in the various sub-forums.



completely disagree that this is a community.

this is a collection of mostly demographically similar individuals and a staff focused more on keeping people 'civil'. and as such for the most part it keeps frictions low, but the second it doesnt work things start to gum up really quickly. someone suggested people take 10 extra seconds to write a date and user name on a piece of paper in their images they already take in their BST posts and a mod and a ton of folks who've been here forever all put up a huge resistance to what is literally not even an inconvenience. and if this forum has a serious number of women/BIPOC members, they keep it to themselves.

doesnt seem like much of a community to me.


----------



## Rangen

tcmx3 said:


> doesnt seem like much of a community to me.



Goes to show how many different definitions of "community" there are. From my perspective, yours seems very wrong. I suppose the reverse would apply, naturally. Which is fine. A community that does not have any significant disagreements would not meet my definition of a community.


----------



## tcmx3

Rangen said:


> Goes to show how many different definitions of "community" there are. From my perspective, yours seems very wrong. I suppose the reverse would apply, naturally. Which is fine. A community that does not have any significant disagreements would not meet my definition of a community.



I mean what Im saying is that having a bunch of people using a shared space who's goals and norms already align is just that.

in a community, there is some degree of risk/cost-sharing, and a willingness to in at least some cases put the good of the group above personal interests. neither of those behaviors is on display much around here.

you and anyone else is fine to disagree. Im just calling it like I see it. ofc others will see it differently.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Rangen said:


> That is an incredibly sexy post! It makes me smile every time I read it! I was going to charge you $100 for reading it, but I will give you a discount because you are a home cook. $97.99! Limited time offer!



I knew before my fingers hit the keys that I was going to be a maestro of truth! My post is in perfect shape and so far barely read!!! It deserves the full $100 and more!

It's all about the bull behind the bulls...


----------



## tostadas

I learned something today:

*new*
/n(y)o͞o/
_adjective_

1 not previously used or owned 
2 mounted outside on a knife rack to oxidize for an undisclosed amount of time
3 sprayed with various chemicals every two weeks
4 used to cut paper

"This knife I'm selling is *new *because I can make more money that way. Just trust me or I'll delete your question and raise the price.  "
-definitely not Sparten007


----------



## josemartinlopez

WildBoar said:


> It's really about if this is a community that has a marketplace, or a marketplace that has a community.


Hey people wanted to ban me for flipping, even though I have never sold a single knife.

And I got banned anyway!


----------



## Bico Doce

josemartinlopez said:


> And I got banned anyway!


Probably for buying way too many knives. Making the rest of us with small collections feel bad


----------



## WildBoar

HumbleHomeCook said:


> With all due respect, and I really mean that, I think you're vastly over reacting. There's one or two suspect folks in BST that pop up but I very much feel like this is a community. The overwhelming majority of interactions are outside of BST and I see all kinds of awesome stuff happening in the various sub-forums.
> 
> Recipes being shared, cooking tips/tricks, awesome pictures, knife recommendations and reviews, kitchen gear reviews, and a lot more.
> 
> I can only speak for myself, but BST is very much a side part of the overall forum for me. A valuable one that I am really glad is here, but just a small portion of the greater experience.
> 
> It doesn't take much of a used car-salesman radar to raise your neck hairs about a couple sellers.


I've been around since the ITK days. While that forum had been going for quite some time when I got interested in j-knives the focus was a lot more on helping each other discover where to get ahold of knife from what were a fairly limited number of makers, what what sharpening items were best, sharpening techniques, rehandling, etc. Plus some food and restaurant stuff thrown in.

These days j-knives are everywhere, there are good pro sharpeners spread throughout the various continents, and great makers have appeared all over the world. The needs of the forum in general are not what they once were; they have evolved as knowledge and availability has drastically increased.

The cooking aspects are still here, which I think is great. It's probably the main thing that keeps me here.

A lot of posters from the 'old days' don't come around much anymore. Sure, some have moved on; their collections are more than complete, they know all they need to know about sharpening to do a good job themselves, they have a pile of vendors to go to for knives and supplies, etc. But a lot of them have moved to other platforms, and are just as active as always -- if not more. It was eye-opening this year when I was trying to corral people for the ECG. There are very few that I still contact via KKF; it's email, text messages, IG, etc. They are still into knives, and many have careers that depend on them. But they are not interested much in spending time on this platform anymore. For me KKF is still a great way to find new people in the mid-Atlantic region, so we can continue to build and strengthen our regional community. But I have found over the last few years that many do not stick around the forums for long.

KKF is different then it was years ago. And that is good for some, and not as good for others. The reality is it could not stay the same, as the kitchen knife world evolved tremendously.

I have bought many knives via the KKF marketplace over the years. That has slowed a lot, but it's largely because I have a pretty good collection, and I'm not who regularly sells in order to try things from newer makers. But I've bought a lot more through IG, PMs and 'massdrops' than through the marketplace the last couple of years. And the ones I have sold have been to people contacting me through PMs and IG, and I have not sold any for more than I paid for them, even when they were tough to get at the time I sold. And the people I have bought from were not looking to make a tidy profit off me. Transactions have been because some really wanted a knife that I had, or they know I really wanted one like the knife they were selling. To me, that is the best representation of being in a community; it's just that it largely is not a KKF community.

anyways, sorry for the ramblings. My 8 year old son has a sore throat and is arguing with my wife over what he can and cannot drink, and whether or not he has to go to school in the morning. I chose to bury my head in KKF until it blow over


----------



## josemartinlopez

Bico Doce said:


> Probably for buying way too many knives. Making the rest of us with small collections feel bad


I got accused of not actually owning any knives, too, in addition to being a flipper!


----------



## WildBoar

josemartinlopez said:


> Hey people wanted to ban me for flipping, even though I have never sold a single knife.
> 
> And I got banned anyway!





Bico Doce said:


> Probably for buying way too many knives. Making the rest of us with small collections feel bad


There is nothing useful I can add to the comprehensive explanation from Bico Doce


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

WildBoar said:


> I've been around since the ITK days. While that forum had been going for quite some time when I got interested in j-knives the focus was a lot more on helping each other discover where to get ahold of knife from what were a fairly limited number of makers, what what sharpening items were best, sharpening techniques, rehandling, etc. Plus some food and restaurant stuff thrown in.
> 
> These days j-knives are everywhere, there are good pro sharpeners spread throughout the various continents, and great makers have appeared all over the world. The needs of the forum in general are not what they once were; they have evolved as knowledge and availability has drastically increased.
> 
> The cooking aspects are still here, which I think is great. It's probably the main thing that keeps me here.
> 
> A lot of posters from the 'old days' don't come around much anymore. Sure, some have moved on; their collections are more than complete, they know all they need to know about sharpening to do a good job themselves, they have a pile of vendors to go to for knives and supplies, etc. But a lot of them have moved to other platforms, and are just as active as always -- if not more. It was eye-opening this year when I was trying to corral people for the ECG. There are very few that I still contact via KKF; it's email, text messages, IG, etc. They are still into knives, and many have careers that depend on them. But they are not interested much in spending time on this platform anymore. For me KKF is still a great way to find new people in the mid-Atlantic region, so we can continue to build and strengthen our regional community. But I have found over the last few years that many do not stick around the forums for long.
> 
> KKF is different then it was years ago. And that is good for some, and not as good for others. The reality is it could not stay the same, as the kitchen knife world evolved tremendously.
> 
> I have bought many knives via the KKF marketplace over the years. That has slowed a lot, but it's largely because I have a pretty good collection, and I'm not who regularly sells in order to try things from newer makers. But I've bought a lot more through IG, PMs and 'massdrops' than through the marketplace the last couple of years. And the ones I have sold have been to people contacting me through PMs and IG, and I have not sold any for more than I paid for them, even when they were tough to get at the time I sold. And the people I have bought from were not looking to make a tidy profit off me. Transactions have been because some really wanted a knife that I had, or they know I really wanted one like the knife they were selling. To me, that is the best representation of being in a community; it's just that it largely is not a KKF community.
> 
> anyways, sorry for the ramblings. My 8 year old son has a sore throat and is arguing with my wife over what he can and cannot drink, and whether or not he has to go to school in the morning. I chose to bury my head in KKF until it blow over



All good friend.

I've been around forums before there were forums and they all follow that same general pattern. Those that get them going often drift off and just as often feel the original forum lost something. And they aren't wrong, it just comes with growth. They help it grow but then it changes. It's just the way of things. I've been through it myself more than once.

I came in here late in terms of forum age but I like it here and plan to stay.

All my best to your boy. Hope he feels better soon.


----------



## ian

josemartinlopez said:


> I got accused of not actually owning any knives, too, in addition to being a flipper!



My suspicion is that you were banned mostly due to moderator exhaustion. Like, maybe if we remove this guy for a month or two, he and the rest of the forum will just shut up for a minute?


----------



## daveb

That Ian has always been a smart fella.


----------



## ian

tcmx3 said:


> completely disagree that this is a community.
> 
> this is a collection of mostly demographically similar individuals and a staff focused more on keeping people 'civil'. and as such for the most part it keeps frictions low, but the second it doesnt work things start to gum up really quickly. someone suggested people take 10 extra seconds to write a date and user name on a piece of paper in their images they already take in their BST posts and a mod and a ton of folks who've been here forever all put up a huge resistance to what is literally not even an inconvenience. and if this forum has a serious number of women/BIPOC members, they keep it to themselves.
> 
> doesnt seem like much of a community to me.



I think it depends which threads you frequent. If you spend a lot of time on this thread or the covid thread, KKF will seem as you describe. But on a lot of the threads there's a strong interest in getting better at making/sharpening/buying, in helping others to get better, and in laughing and ****ing around together. Even buying and selling has a community feel to me. I often buy and sell multiple times from/to the same people and use f&f when appropriate.



tcmx3 said:


> in a community, there is some degree of risk/cost-sharing, and a willingness to in at least some cases put the good of the group above personal interests. neither of those behaviors is on display much around here.



I think there's a lot of cost sharing here. There are a ton of us here who do sell at a pay-it-forward price, either decreasing the price of a knife with every sale, or at least sell at the same price as before, despite it being a higher value item. These sales just don't get airtime in the flipper thread. There're also all these really knowledgable people like Kipp, Dalman, Steampunk, Dave M, etc... that give so much of their time to the forum, teaching us newbies how to tie our shoes. (I mean, I give a lot of time too, but my contributions have a lot less content.) That's totally a sacrifice too. 

That said, I totally agree with you that it's sad that KKF is so overwhelmingly white/asian male, and it's especially sad (at least to me) that by and large this is not really something that people want to change. See e.g. all the pushback in that knives of wives thread. Don't think that makes it not a community, it's just something that I'd change if I could.

Anyway, I guess my point is just that it depends how you interact with KKF. I've met some people on here that I consider real friends at this point.


----------



## tcmx3

ian said:


> I think it depends which threads you frequent. If you spend a lot of time on this thread or the covid thread, KKF will seem as you describe. But on a lot of the threads there's a strong interest in getting better at making/sharpening/buying, in helping others to get better, and in laughing and ****ing around together. Even buying and selling has a community feel to me. I often buy and sell multiple times from/to the same people and use f&f when appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there's a lot of cost sharing here. There are a ton of us here who do sell at a pay-it-forward price, either decreasing the price of a knife with every sale, or at least sell at the same price as before, despite it being a higher value item. These sales just don't get airtime in the flipper thread. There're also all these really knowledgable people like Kipp, Dalman, Steampunk, Dave M, etc... that give so much of their time to the forum, teaching us newbies how to tie our shoes. (I mean, I give a lot of time too, but my contributions have a lot less content.) That's totally a sacrifice too.
> 
> That said, I totally agree with you that it's sad that KKF is so overwhelmingly white/asian male, and it's especially sad (at least to me) that by and large this is not really something that people want to change. See e.g. all the pushback in that knives of wives thread. Don't think that makes it not a community, it's just something that I'd change if I could.
> 
> Anyway, I guess my point is just that it depends how you interact with KKF. I've met some people on here that I consider real friends at this point.



Ian, I do always appreciate your reasonableness even when we don't 100% agree.

I guess that I tend to judge behavior when it's not easy. This is not to dismiss the specific individuals you mentioned at all btw, but more generally, my observations will be focused around how people act when it's hard. Or sometimes around here the slightest of inconveniences but even then that's often too much. You correctly ID that this thread, the COVID thread, etc. highlight the behaviors I'm talking about, but this is more or less my point.

If the basic premise is "fine as long as there are no stressors", that's not a community IMO. Frankly, things work around here for me as they do for some others too. But while other people believe that's enough, I'd like to see it work for everyone and that's what would have to happen for me to call something a community.

A perfect counterexample for me is a discord Im on for a very small food youtube channel. There I am basically an omniscient knife god while here I'm just another patzer (albeit a well financed one). However, because that community has lots of people from varied backgrounds, and people treat each other with actual respect and not just politeness, I find myself spending more time there, and just wishing that it had the level of knowledge this place had and maybe a few of the folks I actually like around here (company which includes you FWIW)


----------



## Jovidah

I think the reason most of the forum is male is simply that more women are wise enough to not go down this rabbit hole. Saves them a fortune. 
In general this kind of nerd-obsession with specific tools, be it knives, razor blades, or automotive vehicles, seems to be a 'guy thing' for some reason. I don't think it's necessarily because there's anything wrong about the forum that would make it unwelcoming.


----------



## IsoJ

Jovidah said:


> I think the reason most of the forum is male is simply that more women are wise enough to not go down this rabbit hole. Saves them a fortune.
> In general this kind of nerd-obsession with specific tools, be it knives, razor blades, or automotive vehicles, seems to be a 'guy thing' for some reason. I don't think it's necessarily because there's anything wrong about the forum that would make it unwelcoming.


You don't want to know how much shoes and bags costs. Don't ask how I know...


----------



## Jovidah

IsoJ said:


> You don't want to know how much shoes and bags costs. Don't ask how I know...


I didn't want to go there.  In general I think making such gross generalizations about entire genderse is extremely problematic... but there must be something if there is indeed such a large discrepancy in representation. Then again some of it might also be simply presuming people's gender. People don't necessarily advertise what type of genitals they have when it's not relevant to the discussion, but there's always a tendency to presume that the other person will be 'just like me', even when that might not necessarily be the case.


----------



## josemartinlopez

IsoJ said:


> You don't want to know how much shoes and bags costs. Don't ask how I know...











Across Asia, why are more men carrying women's handbags?


As fashion gets more androgynous, the legendary Hermes Birkin bag is attracting more and more male consumers. CNA Luxury digs into this trend.




cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com


----------



## IsoJ

josemartinlopez said:


> Across Asia, why are more men carrying women's handbags?
> 
> 
> As fashion gets more androgynous, the legendary Hermes Birkin bag is attracting more and more male consumers. CNA Luxury digs into this trend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com


So, what is your goto bag?


----------



## Migraine

Sparten007 should clearly be banned and I can't see any reason why he isn't.


----------



## ian

Jovidah said:


> I think the reason most of the forum is male is simply that more women are wise enough to not go down this rabbit hole. Saves them a fortune.
> In general this kind of nerd-obsession with specific tools, be it knives, razor blades, or automotive vehicles, seems to be a 'guy thing' for some reason. I don't think it's necessarily because there's anything wrong about the forum that would make it unwelcoming.



True, more guys join the forum than women, for whatever reason. But we then tend to accept that the forum is 'for (hetero) guys' in some slight ways, like in the plethora of penis jokes (ok, who am I to talk, being the proud owner of the only(?) @RDalman penis handle in existence, and the author of a few such jokes), the usual accepted distinction between good knives and wife knives, etc... I suspect a higher percentage of women _join_ the forum than stick around. I'm not trying to rain too much on the forum culture. I mean, obviously I like it enough to spend some ungodly number of hours talking **** on here.  But it could be more welcoming sometimes.


----------



## ian

Jovidah said:


> I didn't want to go there.  In general I think making such gross generalizations about entire genderse is extremely problematic... but there must be something if there is indeed such a large discrepancy in representation. Then again some of it might also be simply presuming people's gender. People don't necessarily advertise what type of genitals they have when it's not relevant to the discussion, but there's always a tendency to presume that the other person will be 'just like me', even when that might not necessarily be the case.



I still remember how intensely betrayed I felt when I figured out that @inferno wasn’t a woman.


----------



## BillHanna




----------



## Jovidah

josemartinlopez said:


> Across Asia, why are more men carrying women's handbags?
> 
> 
> As fashion gets more androgynous, the legendary Hermes Birkin bag is attracting more and more male consumers. CNA Luxury digs into this trend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnaluxury.channelnewsasia.com


Seems like a rather expensive way to come out of the closet...



ian said:


> True, more guys join the forum than women, for whatever reason. But we then tend to accept that the forum is 'for (hetero) guys' in some slight ways, like in the plethora of penis jokes (ok, who am I to talk, being the proud owner of the only(?) @RDalman penis handle in existence, and the author of a few such jokes), the usual accepted distinction between good knives and wife knives, etc... I suspect a higher percentage of women _join_ the forum than stick around. I'm not trying to rain too much on the forum culture. I mean, obviously I like it enough to spend some ungodly number of hours talking **** on here.  But it could be more welcoming sometimes.


Honestly I think if a few penis jokes was enough to scare off women they'd all have packed up and colonized Venus or Mars without us instead. Who knows, maybe SpaceX's engineering department is filled with them and we just haven't heard about it.
I'm okay with referring to wife's knives as 'normie knives' instead.


----------



## Slim278

ian said:


> True, more guys join the forum than women, for whatever reason. But we then tend to accept that the forum is 'for (hetero) guys' in some slight ways, like in the plethora of penis jokes (ok, who am I to talk, being the proud owner of the only(?) @RDalman penis handle in existence, and the author of a few such jokes), the usual accepted distinction between good knives and wife knives, etc... I suspect a higher percentage of women _join_ the forum than stick around. I'm not trying to rain too much on the forum culture. I mean, obviously I like it enough to spend some ungodly number of hours talking **** on here.  But it could be more welcoming sometimes.


Vigina jokes. We need more vigina jokes. I know that Dalman would love a vigina shaped saya.


----------



## WildBoar

Maybe talk more about sayas/ sheaths (i.e., vagina equivalents) to attract/ retain more of the female population?

D'oh -- too slow!


----------



## tcmx3

you guys are literally proving Ian right in real time.


----------



## WildBoar

tcmx3 said:


> you guys are literally proving Ian right in real time.


How do you know we are guys?


----------



## ian

Jovidah said:


> Honestly I think if a few penis jokes was enough to scare off women they'd all have packed up and colonized Venus or Mars without us instead.



It’s doubt any of this scares people off. It just makes the culture here more bro-y, and therefore makes it slightly less attractive to people that aren’t bro-y. It’s not like someone goes “ew, a penis joke” and quits the forum because of their fragile mental state, it’s just that they become less engaged the more they see. Anyway, I didn’t really want to make all of this about penis jokes… the wife knife thing is a better example. I feel like a total hypocrite arguing against penis jokes anyway. Maybe it’s also just that once there’s a critical mass of masculine energy, regardless of the number of penis jokes, it’s less enticing to people that don’t identify that way. I definitely don’t have a solution to this, in any case.



Jovidah said:


> I'm okay with referring to wife's knives as 'normie knives' instead.



Perfect!


----------



## tcmx3

WildBoar said:


> How do you know we are guys?



if I went to a conference for the selling of propane and propane accessories it would be a pretty safe assumption that people weren't there to pimp their charcoal starters.

(btw for those unfamiliar with King of the Hill, my point is that in an environment where there is an open, if often unspoken hostility to some group, you wont find that group there)


----------



## spaceconvoy

As usual, men are clueless as to what they're doing that upsets women... Penis jokes are just to be expected from men, and they're generally good-natured. Boring and predictable, but not upsetting unless you have unresolved trauma. The 'wife knife' comments could upset some women, but others can relate to this partnership dynamic (and may even have a wife of their own ), especially if they're the one inclined to visit a forum like this. The terminology isn't great, but it rhymes and is catchy.

The parts that _are_ off-putting are the ways that women are discussed in threads like 'youtube knuckleheads' and elsewhere - god forbid she shows one tenth of the overconfidence as every mediocre-skilled man with a sharpening tutorial. And anytime CM gets randomly brought up in a conversation, it's almost never relevant and usually demeaning. This is what real sexism looks like, not penis jokes.

But I think the biggest issue is more widespread and less obvious to men, which is the general culture of one-upsmanship and competition. It feels like a good chunk of the men here (and every internet forum in existence) are more interested in asserting their dominance than trying to be helpful, when say for example debating the best way to do something. I think this is the main reason women tend to avoid primarily male spaces.


----------



## Slim278

Sex is a blood sport "All is fair in love and war" and almost every action we make as an adult can be connected to our drive to have sex. This includes the assertion and dominant traits in men as well as where women choose to spend time.


----------



## tgfencer

spaceconvoy said:


> As usual, men are clueless as to what they're doing that upsets women... Penis jokes are just to be expected from men, and they're generally good-natured. Boring and predictable, but not upsetting unless you have unresolved trauma. The 'wife knife' comments could upset some women, but others can relate to this partnership dynamic (and may even have a wife of their own ), especially if they're the one inclined to visit a forum like this. The terminology isn't great, but it rhymes and is catchy.
> 
> The parts that _are_ off-putting are the ways that women are discussed in threads like 'youtube knuckleheads' and elsewhere - god forbid she shows one tenth of the overconfidence as every mediocre-skilled man with a sharpening tutorial. And anytime CM gets randomly brought up in a conversation, it's almost never relevant and usually demeaning. This is what real sexism looks like, not penis jokes.
> 
> But I think the biggest issue is more widespread and less obvious to men, which is the general culture of one-upsmanship and competition. It feels like a good chunk of the men here (and every internet forum in existence) are more interested in asserting their dominance than trying to be helpful, when say for example debating the best way to do something. I think this is the main reason women tend to avoid primarily male spaces.



Ignoring everything else and veering mildly off topic, I actually don't think CM's general reputation here on the forum is much based in sexism. I mentioned her to my wife one time, just as an aside about something else, and her viewpoint was that it would be more sexist/demeaning if we pretended her knives were good or refused to criticize her or her pricing simply _because _they were made by a woman. In the same sense, no one here speaks badly about DesRosiers or Jessica Burke because their work is of a high quality and commensurate with the cost. This isn't to say that there haven't been overly derogatory comments made about CM, just that as a whole, I don't think her reputation is founded in sexism, but rather what she produces and how she markets her work.


----------



## Jovidah

Yeah I agree that you can't count the CM bashing as sexism. If anything her knives are marketed based on her sexuality - not on her skill as a knifemaker or the knives inherent quality. That's on her / whoever made that documentary, not on us. If anything it's her doing a disservice to women... 
Also, things becoming a meme just... happens. Like TF.


----------



## BillHanna




----------



## Bico Doce

Slim278 said:


> Sex is a blood sport "All is fair in love and war" and almost every action we make as an adult can be connected to our drive to have sex. This includes the assertion and dominant traits in men as well as where women choose to spend time.


This thread has gone from “flipper alert” to “creeper alert”


----------



## spaceconvoy

It's not about the quality of her knives or fairness of her pricing. It's about how often she's randomly brought up in completely unrelated discussions, and how the focus is often on _her_, not her knives. And no, memes don't "just happen"

TF has become a meme here because of the small but zealous circle of people who recommend them enthusiastically while brushing aside their shortcomings. And probably bolstered by his high prices and how seriously he presents himself.

I haven't done a study but I feel relatively confident to claim that literally no one here has ever recommended CM's knives. No one seems to ask about them either. But somehow she just keeps popping up in unrelated conversations for some mysterious reason


----------



## xxxclx

Bico Doce said:


> This thread has gone from “flipper alert” to “creeper alert”



"Would you prefer a nature metaphor or a sexual metaphor?"

"When two animals are having sex..."


----------



## BoSharpens

How about "How Long The Fine Cutting Holds Up???"


----------



## Slim278

Bico Doce said:


> This thread has gone from “flipper alert” to “creeper alert”


Discussing sex drive is creepy?
It is basic sales 101.


----------



## sansho

is CM like voldemort or something? can't name her? no idea who that is.


----------



## ian

sansho said:


> is CM like voldemort or something? can't name her? no idea who that is.








CHELSEA MILLER KNIVES


Handmade knives by Chelsea Miller Knives are made from discarded farm tools and horse files. Blades are made from high carbon steel horse files. Handles are made from wood native to Vermont.




www.chelseamillerknives.com
 




Also, thanks to @spaceconvoy for being more eloquent and precise about this than I was being.


----------



## xxxclx

sansho said:


> is CM like voldemort or something? can't name her? no idea who that is.



she made the knife that they used to cut off the horse's head in _Godfather_


----------



## sansho

ian said:


> CHELSEA MILLER KNIVES
> 
> 
> Handmade knives by Chelsea Miller Knives are made from discarded farm tools and horse files. Blades are made from high carbon steel horse files. Handles are made from wood native to Vermont.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chelseamillerknives.com



i see!

well, i was sold until i saw the knives.


----------



## Bodine

Perhaps;, in addition to WTS, WTT, And WTB, they should add W T F, this could have many meanings, want to flip, what the f and want to f, that should cover the bases.


----------



## Jovidah

spaceconvoy said:


> It's not about the quality of her knives or fairness of her pricing. It's about how often she's randomly brought up in completely unrelated discussions, and how the focus is often on _her_, not her knives. And no, memes don't "just happen"
> 
> TF has become a meme here because of the small but zealous circle of people who recommend them enthusiastically while brushing aside their shortcomings. And probably bolstered by his high prices and how seriously he presents himself.
> 
> I haven't done a study but I feel relatively confident to claim that literally no one here has ever recommended CM's knives. No one seems to ask about them either. But somehow she just keeps popping up in unrelated conversations for some mysterious reason


No one ever recommended her knives because they were complete and utter unpractical ugly garbage. Yet priced at the level of high end customs. So yeah.. she's kinda the running joke because anyone who had a look at her knives is painfully aware that she's only able to sell junk like that at such a price because she has tits and some people are uninformed idiots. If she was a guy she'd probably never have breached out of anonimity making what she makes...

And that's sad because it took attention away from far better knifemakers that could have been put in the spotlight instead of her - regardless of what their gender may happen to be.
Sorry, but using CM-bashing as an example of sexism is just outright ridiculous. It's like calling someone mysogynist for calling a porn actress promiscuous.


----------



## Bico Doce

Slim278 said:


> Discussing sex drive is creepy?
> It is basic sales 101.


I was just poking fun. I am sure for some they live their life where sex drive does dictate every action, I personally believe that we can evolve beyond that. This is a philosophical question that has been debated for millennia and I cannot disprove your point. With that said I’m not sure I would want my daughter on this forum/thread after a comment like that


----------



## btbyrd

I also wouldn't want to buy anything he's selling.


----------



## ian

Jovidah said:


> No one ever recommended her knives because they were complete and utter unpractical ugly garbage. Yet priced at the level of high end customs. So yeah.. she's kinda the running joke because anyone who had a look at her knives is painfully aware that she's only able to sell junk like that at such a price because she has tits and some people are uninformed idiots. If she was a guy she'd probably never have breached out of anonimity making what she makes...
> 
> And that's sad because it took attention away from far better knifemakers that could have been put in the spotlight instead of her - regardless of what their gender may happen to be.
> Sorry, but using CM-bashing as an example of sexism is just outright ridiculous. It's like calling someone mysogynist for calling a porn actress promiscuous.



I think almost everyone agrees that her knives do not look appealing, and that it’s crazy that she gets $800 a knife for them. I’d be interested to see if there were some other examples of knives (say, made my men) at that price point where the knives looked similarly unappealing. I don’t remember any, but then again, I don’t keep tabs on makers that make crap looking knives.

But that’s not @spaceconvoy’s point. He’s commenting on the crazy frequency with which she’s referenced (it’s a lot!), and the often sexual nature of the comments. You could say that she’s only getting the attention because she’s an attractive woman, but it’s not like she’s posing with her knives in lingerie or something, so when someone references her and then takes it in a sexual direction, that’s their choice, it’s not about anything she’s done. The pic on her website is appealing, perhaps, but it’s just a picture of her. She’s a knife maker who’s an attractive woman and who has good marketing skills, but there are a huge number of posts on the site that talk about her sexually, and that’s what @spaceconvoy’s talking about.


----------



## Corradobrit1

ian said:


> I think almost everyone agrees that her knives do not look appealing, and that it’s crazy that she gets $800 a knife for them. I’d be interested to see if there were some other examples of knives (say, made my men) at that price point where the knives looked similarly unappealing. I don’t remember any, but then again, I don’t keep tabs on makers that make crap looking knives.


For your edification. No idea what Willey charges for his choppers, but whatever it is its too much. Adding cleavage to the mix won't make them anymore appealing.


----------



## tcmx3

Jovidah said:


> Sorry, but using CM-bashing as an example of sexism is just outright ridiculous. It's like calling someone mysogynist for calling a porn actress promiscuous.



it's rare I agree with SpaceConvoy, but in this case he is 100% right.

the reaction CM gets is disproportionate in the extreme and a lot of it is outright gross/sexual in nature. whatever story you want to tell yourself that somehow excuses that behavior I cant stop you from doing, but it will never _actually_ excuse the behavior SC is (rightly) calling out.


----------



## btbyrd

I also think some of the CM stuff has been gross, sexual, and inappropriate. She's a polarizing figure, but she doesn't deserve that and I think less of people who engage in that kind of behavior on the forum. Whether or not the general criticism of her work is extremely disproportionate is another matter. I cannot think of another (kitchen) knifemaker who has garnered such an extreme amount of fawning and uncritical press attention with such a... questionable product. Search for her knives on YouTube, and you'll find features from Popular Mechanics, Eater, Wired, Buzzfeed, Boomburg, Business Insider, Eater, and a host of other outlets. There's no footage from actual customers using her product. It's insane. I think most (but not all) of the criticism is a proportional backlash against this rather than being motivated by gross sexism or misogyny or whatever.

That said, some of the comments are beyond the pale, and there are moments on this forum where it becomes clear that there are leering, scummy, bro-dudes in our midst. This makes it seem like even more of a boys' club than it already did (which is saying something, given the pissing contests that sometimes go on here). Sometimes the behavior is so bad that it justly prompts the ban-hammer. Other times it's more mild and gets passed over without getting mentioned. None of this is unique to this forum, and it's present (to some extent) on all the enthusiast forums that I've been a part of. Two of them even recently changed their names to try to make them more friendly to women (or at least less off-putting). But those changes are only cosmetic. It wasn't the name of the forums keeping women away.


----------



## M1k3

I know I've poked fun at CM a time or two hundred. What sex the maker has no bearing on my opinion on how ugly the knives are though. I have no experience on how they actually perform though.


----------



## M1k3

Just like I made fun Carter's Honest Edge Ranch. If he was a female, I'd still make fun of it.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Want to have your mind blown? Look up TPK Knives on YouTube. I don't know if she (and I think her boyfriend/hubby) still does but when I was first learned of it on another forum, she/they had an eBay store with a backlog!

And speaking of slimy sales tactics, I'm a big fan of the "Ooooo you heathens! You can't appreciate the deal I have offered you so if you do not act now, I will rescind this amazingness and hike the prices!"


----------



## M1k3

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Want to have your mind blown? Look up TPK Knives on YouTube. I don't know if she (and I think her boyfriend/hubby) still does but when I was first learned of it on another forum, she/they had an eBay store with a backlog!
> 
> And speaking of slimy sales tactics, I'm a big fan of the "Ooooo you heathens! You can't appreciate the deal I have offered you so if you do not act now, I will rescind this amazingness and hike the prices!"


Discount for cooks?


----------



## lemeneid

Sooooo CM Massdrop next???


----------



## AT5760

How about an Elaine Blanc Massdrop instead?


----------



## ian

AT5760 said:


> How about an Elaine Blanc Massdrop instead?



You mean her? Those some good lookin knives. And ****, she’s a luthier (spent most of my life training to be a violinist) and she lives in Boston. ***, how did I not know about her?






Eliane Leblanc Chef Knives | Eatingtools.com


A multi-disciplinary artisan & world-class violin maker, Eliane Leblanc now hones her sights on fine, handcrafted chef knives forged from custom damascus steel.




www.eatingtools.com


----------



## AT5760

Yep. I’ve been following her on IG for quite a while. Beautiful work. Not sure how they cut though - well out of my budget.


----------



## justaute

As long as this place isn't a Qanon hangout, then I'll be alright. LOL


----------



## spaceconvoy

ian said:


> I’d be interested to see if there were some other examples of knives (say, made my men) at that price point where the knives looked similarly unappealing.





M1k3 said:


> Just like I made fun Carter's Honest Edge Ranch. If he was a female, I'd still make fun of it.


I was just going to say, the best male analogue to CM is probably MC (opposite and inverse, ying and yang :mindblown: )... They're obviously not the same, but they both lean heavily on their image to sell knives for higher than market rates. Would anyone pay MC prices for a 7" santoku funayuki if it was made by a random Japanese guy? 









Real focus on the knives here


----------



## ian

justaute said:


> As long as this place isn't a Qanon hangout, then I'll be alright. LOL



omg omg did you say Q? 17! 17! 17!


----------



## M1k3

ian said:


> You mean her? Those some good lookin knives. And ****, she’s a luthier (spent most of my life training to be a violinist) and she lives in Boston. ***, how did I not know about her?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eliane Leblanc Chef Knives | Eatingtools.com
> 
> 
> A multi-disciplinary artisan & world-class violin maker, Eliane Leblanc now hones her sights on fine, handcrafted chef knives forged from custom damascus steel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.eatingtools.com


They actually look like fancy knives instead of a pointy cheese grater with a knife handle!


----------



## tostadas

lemeneid said:


> Sooooo CM Massdrop next???


Sure, I even have em ready to ship out immediately. Just send me your money


----------



## Bico Doce

spaceconvoy said:


> I was just going to say, the best male analogue to CM is probably MC (opposite and inverse, ying and yang :mindblown: )... They're obviously not the same, but they both lean heavily on their image to sell knives for higher than market rates. Would anyone pay MC prices for a 7" santoku funayuki if it was made by a random Japanese guy?
> 
> View attachment 148694
> 
> View attachment 148697
> Real focus on the knives here


I had to do a double take on the pic of CM, looks like she’s holding a really small coconut with a straw going straight into her nose

MC has his moments - such as “I’ve made 372,000 knives in my career and sharpened over 500k” but at least he’s a ABS master bladesmith. I think for some that title carries a lot of weight and are willing to pay a premium for a funyantoku or whatever it’s called


----------



## justaute

Hockey3081 said:


> Check the Covid thread. I’m sure deductive reasoning will help you figure out the likelihood of which members were/are duped by some socially impotent nerd who is now running for Congress in Arizona.



meh...I try my best to not waste any brain-cell on twaddle.


----------



## juice

ian said:


> You mean her? Those some good lookin knives. And ****, she’s a luthier (spent most of my life training to be a violinist) and she lives in Boston. ***, how did I not know about her?


Yeah, she's stupid talented, I've followed her for a while. Mostly, TBH, for her luthier stuff.


----------



## Jovidah

tcmx3 said:


> it's rare I agree with SpaceConvoy, but in this case he is 100% right.
> 
> the reaction CM gets is disproportionate in the extreme and a lot of it is outright gross/sexual in nature. whatever story you want to tell yourself that somehow excuses that behavior I cant stop you from doing, but it will never _actually_ excuse the behavior SC is (rightly) calling out.


Did I miss something? All I've occasionally seen is the occasional joking CMCMCM or other reference to her, usually in relation to overpriced, ugly or junk knives. I don't think that's entirely unfair when you ask 800 bucks for junk, and the amount of uncritical attention she had in some more mainstream media is frankly sad, and to think that she would have gotten that same attention if she had been a man is... cute. At best that's 'positive sexism'... 



Bico Doce said:


> I was just poking fun. I am sure for some they live their life where sex drive does dictate every action, I personally believe that we can evolve beyond that. This is a philosophical question that has been debated for millennia and I cannot disprove your point. With that said I’m not sure I would want my daughter on this forum/thread after a comment like that


There is some truth in what he said though; especially in the world of marketing. The age-old mantra of 'sex sells' is very much alive, but it's usualy / mostly on a subconscious level, and you see this in things like popular media, entertainment and other sectors as well. 
I'm not saying this is a good thing, but... let's just say that after doing a course on social psychology you start recognizing a lot of stuff.


----------



## ian

Jovidah said:


> Did I miss something? All I've occasionally seen is the occasional joking CMCMCM or other reference to her, usually in relation to overpriced, ugly or junk knives. I don't think that's entirely unfair when you ask 800 bucks for junk, and the amount of uncritical attention she had in some more mainstream media is frankly sad, and to think that she would have gotten that same attention if she had been a man is... cute. At best that's 'positive sexism'...



Yea, there’s definitely a fair amount of benign joking around about her knives. But in addition to the occasional explicit sexual reference, there’s a lot of low grade stuff, like people saying she’s gonna be their next wife, or drawing a comparison between her and a porn star*. A lot of these comments aren’t really a big deal as a one off, but when it becomes a theme then it’s clear that the forum treats her more as a sex symbol than a knife-maker, which is not great imo regardless of the quality of her product. Maybe you could argue that it’s the world (or rather the greater knife community) that treats her that way when they elevate her products, so we at KKF are just commenting on that, but it’s still not great.


*Your post about this is an outlier, since you were also making a point about sexism, in the context of a discussion about someone being viewed sexually. And in general, I think you’re one of the more measured and thoughtful posters on here, whose opinion I respect. It’s just that if you were to count the number of posts containing both CM and some sort of low grade innuendo or sexual reference, I’m confident that they’d vastly outnumber the number of posts containing MC and such a reference, which says something. Perhaps that something is subtle, but I think it’s there.

Edit: I also should just say that it’s not that anyone who’s ever made an innuendo about her is a bad person or something. It’s just that the forum atmosphere kind of encourages that. I’m certainly guilty of making off color jokes from time to time too.


----------



## tcmx3

Jovidah said:


> Did I miss something? All I've occasionally seen is the occasional joking CMCMCM or other reference to her, usually in relation to overpriced, ugly or junk knives. I don't think that's entirely unfair when you ask 800 bucks for junk, and the amount of uncritical attention she had in some more mainstream media is frankly sad, and to think that she would have gotten that same attention if she had been a man is... cute. At best that's 'positive sexism'...



there's always a reason.

"it's not about gender/race/orientation", except that it is 

and sure the media might be uncritical of whether her knives are good, but people here seem to be real uncritical of whether they are contributing to a problem. I dont know why I/Ian/SC/etc have to keep telling you that you are too married to the idea that one of these wrongs is somehow justifying the other. that's just not how it works.


----------



## josemartinlopez

I just want to say I'm clearly not responsible for where this thread went


----------



## BillHanna

hey. I heard through the grapevine that @josemartinlopez gave Chels*a M*ller her first rasp. He's her dealer. Thats how he pays for his knives. It's his fault.


----------



## ian

I’m just glad we were able to have a brief, measured and reasonable discussion about this for once. Last time it came up it degenerated into pages of name calling.


----------



## rstcso

josemartinlopez said:


> I just want to say I'm clearly not responsible for where this thread went


I'm pretty sure there aren't many responsible persons part of this thread. Just saying.


----------



## Matus

... I never expected to see a discussion about CM knives in a 'FLIPPER ALERT thread'.


----------



## Ochazuke

Matus said:


> ... I never expected to see a discussion about CM knives in a 'FLIPPER ALERT thread'.


Wait... isn't she the one flipping files and rasps?


----------



## Ochazuke

Ochazuke said:


> Wait... isn't she the one flipping files and rasps?


Just to make my subtext clear: this was my example of how to make fun of a maker’s knives without creating at atmosphere that’s unwelcoming (unless you’re Chelsea Miller).

Props to @Matus for setting up the joke.


----------



## ian

Ochazuke said:


> Just to make my subtext clear: this was my example of how to make fun of a maker’s knives without creating at atmosphere that’s unwelcoming (unless you’re Chelsea Miller).
> 
> Props to @Matus for setting up the joke.



 Also see @M1k3, who is a master at this.


----------



## M1k3

ian said:


> Also see @M1k3, who is a master at this.


That's what they said.


----------



## parbaked

M1k3 said:


> That's what they said.


You never know unless you try arghhhh


----------



## M1k3

parbaked said:


> You never know unless you try arghhhh


@CiderBear


----------



## Corradobrit1

Interesting 'Kenichi' Shiraki honyaki on BST. At least seller isn't claiming it's an Ashi Honyaki.... but is it a Kenichi Shiraki blade? Shiraki Hamono would be more accurate.






Fake Ashi Honyaki Sold


I have come across a knife that was sold as an Ashi Honyaki on one of the usual places for knife and stone sales in Japan, which I believe is in fact not an Ashi. Let me start by saying that I have no horses in this race, the sale has absolutely nothing with me and I do not know who has bought...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## Apocalypse

Corradobrit1 said:


> Interesting 'Kenichi' Shiraki honyaki on BST. At least seller isn't claiming it's an Ashi Honyaki.... but is it a Kenichi Shiraki blade? Shiraki Hamono would be more accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fake Ashi Honyaki Sold
> 
> 
> I have come across a knife that was sold as an Ashi Honyaki on one of the usual places for knife and stone sales in Japan, which I believe is in fact not an Ashi. Let me start by saying that I have no horses in this race, the sale has absolutely nothing with me and I do not know who has bought...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com



Oh snap. This looks very similar to the one in this thread.


----------



## tostadas

Corradobrit1 said:


> Interesting 'Kenichi' Shiraki honyaki on BST. At least seller isn't claiming it's an Ashi Honyaki.... but is it a Kenichi Shiraki blade? Shiraki Hamono would be more accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fake Ashi Honyaki Sold
> 
> 
> I have come across a knife that was sold as an Ashi Honyaki on one of the usual places for knife and stone sales in Japan, which I believe is in fact not an Ashi. Let me start by saying that I have no horses in this race, the sale has absolutely nothing with me and I do not know who has bought...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Apocalypse said:


> Oh snap. This looks very similar to the one in this thread.


Kanji looks a bit different tho, no?


----------



## Corradobrit1

tostadas said:


> Kanji looks a bit different tho, no?


Looks darn close to me. Maybe lighting is obscuring some of the chisel marks. Plus theres the arrangement of kanji, box, handle, saya, Kono-style machi gap etc etc. These were readily available in different sizes on the Japanese auction sites earlier this year.


----------



## tostadas

Corradobrit1 said:


> Looks darn close to me. Plus theres the arrangement of kanji, box, handle, saya, Kono-style machi gap etc etc.


The bottom kanji character looks different to me. But then again, I can't read it... so what do I know. But I agree the overall package looks very similar.


----------



## cheflife15

Just want to add how annoying it is when someone says they'll buy it in a pm, then says never mind after updating the thread with spf. The person who most recently did it to me did it to me last time I sold something too. Put on ignore list moving forward.


----------



## TSF415

Twas me. Sorry man.

Also don’t know what this has to do with being a flipper.


----------



## Bico Doce

TSF415 said:


> Twas me. Sorry man.
> 
> Also don’t know what this has to do with being a flipper.


Respect for calling yourself out


----------



## cheflife15

Bico Doce said:


> Respect for calling yourself out


Lol I was going to leave his name out of it. Has nothing to do with being a flipper but it's annoying when you're trying to sell something. Now I have to re contact people who I told no to. This is after having them commit to the last knife (a kamon) and then not answer messages.


----------



## Bico Doce

cheflife15 said:


> Lol I was going to leave his name out of it. Has nothing to do with being a flipper but it's annoying when you're trying to sell something. Now I have to re contact people who I told no to. This is after having them commit to the last knife (a kamon) and then not answer messages.


And respect to you for not naming him, I understand you wanted to vent a bit after 2 poor experiences


----------



## TSF415

I did not commit to the Kamon. I didn't even remember that because I have a pretty impeccable BST track record. So I went back and looked. I said if you decide to sell instead of trading than contact me first and then when you were willing to sell I wasn't interested,


Today I said I wanted to buy the set. Then I had some questions about it and there were a few hours in-between message replies. Ive had quite a crapy day at work and then decided it wasn't a wise decision to spend money in that way. For sure that wasn't great on my part but come on man. Sorry you have to circle back in messages to everyone else but I'm pretty sure that in our 4-5 message transaction that I didn't do anything to harm your sell.


----------



## cheflife15

TSF415 said:


> I did not commit to the Kamon. I didn't even remember that because I have a pretty impeccable BST track record. So I went back and looked. I said if you decide to sell instead of trading than contact me first and then when you were willing to sell I wasn't interested,
> 
> 
> Today I said I wanted to buy the set. Then I had some questions about it and there were a few hours in-between message replies. Ive had quite a crapy day at work and then decided it wasn't a wise decision to spend money in that way. For sure that wasn't great on my part but come on man. Sorry you have to circle back in messages to everyone else but I'm pretty sure that in our 4-5 message transaction that I didn't do anything to harm your sell.





TSF415 said:


> I did not commit to the Kamon. I didn't even remember that because I have a pretty impeccable BST track record. So I went back and looked. I said if you decide to sell instead of trading than contact me first and then when you were willing to sell I wasn't interested,
> 
> 
> Today I said I wanted to buy the set. Then I had some questions about it and there were a few hours in-between message replies. Ive had quite a crapy day at work and then decided it wasn't a wise decision to spend money in that way. For sure that wasn't great on my part but come on man. Sorry you have to circle back in messages to everyone else but I'm pretty sure that in our 4-5 message transaction that I didn't do anything to harm your sell.


Just as I said in the bst thread, this conversation doesn't need to continue. I didn't even out your name. I simply made a statement of how that happening is annoying and I'm sure lots of other posters have agreed. I get the industry is tough and I'm sure your night sucked. Go relax and realize this isn't some attack on you or your character. It's just something that's simply annoying. Have a good night.


----------



## stringer

cheflife15 said:


> Just as I said in the bst thread, this conversation doesn't need to continue. I didn't even out your name. I simply made a statement of how that happening is annoying and I'm sure lots of other posters have agreed. I get the industry is tough and I'm sure your night sucked. Go relax and realize this isn't some attack on you or your character. It's just something that's simply annoying. Have a good night.


-1 off-topic


----------



## ian

Come on guys, are you really going to wrap up this disagreement in like 5 posts without any significant conflict or name calling? I come to this thread to be entertained. Where’s my content?

Edit: Oooh, I found more content in the BST thread. Good work!


----------



## Jville

Recently Sparten007 laughed at my classified ad on the Fuji 255 mm Funayuki. So I’m curious @Sparten007 , what is so funny? I would love for you to share and we can have a good laugh. I know that when I laugh at your ads, it’s because your prices are ridiculous. And I’m quite sure that many others feel similiar, not to mention other questionable practices that others have mentioned about you. If you have something to say please do. We can discuss our current and past sales. I see yours in the feed all the time and I have plenty of them that I have sold over the years. In fact, if it was up to me we could openly discuss anything you or anyone else wanted to discuss right on the classified ad. If the mods were to let this go and let people say what they want on my ad, I would be all for it. Of course, I don’t make the rules, but if they were to turn a blind eye or let it go, because I said it was ok that would be perfectly fine with me. I do not think you would want the same open and honest discussions on your threads. That’s why you hide behind the rules and find shelter in them.


----------



## Elliot

Guessing he finds it funny that you’re not taking advantage of dummies.


----------



## Jeff

Matus said:


> I think that admin should remove this tread and have a private chat with the OP [emoji52]


I respectfully disagree. I think it is important to air the dirty laundry for the sake of full transparency and as a deterrent effect to discourage others from disreputable conduct.

I recognize the desire to keep the forum positive, but by openly calling out improper practices we will be making it a better place by discouraging such conduct.

It is distasteful all around. But, if the wrongdoer is only privately admonished what stops him from doing it to others? And what stops others from doing the same?

For the most part this is a very positive place. Yes, some transactional threads (sales etc.) can get a little prickly ... but that is just the nature of a marketplace.

In any event, the unpleasantness of these limited situations quickly fade and the majority of us return to the various topics a little more educated about the undesirable practices which are always present.


----------



## TSF415

Elliot said:


> Guessing he finds it funny that you’re not taking advantage of dummies.


Not dummies, just poor (obviously not in the money sense) uniformed people


----------



## Bico Doce

Come on @Sparten008, get in here and defend your honor. Don’t let this die on the vine.


----------



## M1k3

Horse Carriage horse


----------



## ian

Bico Doce said:


> Come on @Sparten008, get in here and defend your honor. Don’t let this die on the vine.



Who is zees Sparten008??


----------



## Hockey3081

ian said:


> Who is zees Sparten008??



Sparten007+1, math guy. 

Soooo.. what got him banned?!?


----------



## Jville

Hockey3081 said:


> Sparten007+1, math guy.
> 
> Soooo.. what got him banned?!?
> 
> View attachment 155394


Huh, if he got banned it must of been recently, because his reaction was today. I could find him earlier when I tagged him. But I can’t find him now. If so good riddance.


----------



## Jville

Did he really just add 1 and come back that would be hilarious  . It’s interesting because earlier, when I was tagging him I saw both sparten007 and Sparten008 come up and the both had the exact same profile pic. Now sparten007 doesn’t come up but Sparten008 profile pic is different. Is it possible a technical glitch? Didn’t @ian accidentally get banned for a second. I didn’t see what happen I just heard his joke. Ian can you elaborate on what happened? Not sure if it is a sensitive subject or not. If so, I will just move on from it. But it seemed like it was an accident to me.


----------



## ian

Jville said:


> Didn’t @ian accidentally get banned for a second.



I assumed that I had pissed off the powers at be, so to spare them the trouble of banning me, I changed my status to “Banned”. It’s like faking your own death to escape the loan sharks. Worked like a charm!

I suspect Sparten asked to be banned to avoid answering your hard-hitting question about laugh reactions.


----------



## xxxclx

ian said:


> I assumed that I had pissed off the powers at be, so to spare them the trouble of banning me, I changed my status to “Banned”. It’s like faking your own death to escape the loan sharks. Worked like a charm!
> 
> I suspect Sparten asked to be banned to avoid answering your hard-hitting question about laugh reactions.



ah. the old "you can't ban me! I'm already banned!"


----------



## Jville

ian said:


> I assumed that I had pissed off the powers at be, so to spare them the trouble of banning me, I changed my status to “Banned”. It’s like faking your own death to escape the loan sharks. Worked like a charm!
> 
> I suspect Sparten asked to be banned to avoid answering your hard-hitting question about laugh reactions.


Haha, makes, sense genius move by you. If your suspicion is correct, then my post worked out even better than expected. Y’all are welcome


----------



## Forty Ounce

Good riddance.. this is a sprinkle of what this guy was really like.. here's the message he sent after I commented about missing out on the black friday sale.


----------



## daveb

I didn't post this.









Jussie Smollett Claims He Can’t Be Tried Because Last Night While Walking Home He Was Murdered


CHICAGO, IL—In a bombshell statement during his court case today, Jussie Smollett declared he can no longer be tried as he was murdered by racists while walking home last night and is now dead.




babylonbee.com


----------



## ian

Forty Ounce said:


> Good riddance.. this is a sprinkle of what this guy was really like.. here's the message he sent after I commented about missing out on the black friday sale. View attachment 155424
> View attachment 155424



Exactly, I got the same sort of passive aggressive pms too.


----------



## Hockey3081

Forty Ounce said:


> Good riddance.. this is a sprinkle of what this guy was really like.. here's the message he sent after I commented about missing out on the black friday sale. View attachment 155424
> View attachment 155424



I’ll see your moronic DM and raise you with a douche chill DM. 






Sadly his prayers never reached me


----------



## Forty Ounce

Hockey3081 said:


> I’ll see your moronic DM and raise you with a douche chill DM.
> 
> View attachment 155435
> 
> 
> Sadly his prayers never reached me


Lmao! I'm just so happy that this all happened the way it did. He now knows who I am on IG and has blocked me, so I can finally stop worrying when I get a message notification.


----------



## tchan001

Verbose007


----------



## TSF415

I kinda feel left out


----------



## TSF415

Forty Ounce said:


> Lmao! I'm just so happy that this all happened the way it did. He now knows who I am on IG and has blocked me, so I can finally stop worrying when I get a message notification.


That’s unfortunate. I’m sure a forty-fied knife would have easily been marked up $1k by him.


----------



## Jville

Come on guys. I think this sweet story about his son will change all your guys mind. He sent me this to answer my reply of “your son must play for the Dolphins.”


----------



## Forty Ounce

TSF415 said:


> That’s unfortunate. I’m sure a forty-fied knife would have easily been marked up $1k by him.


Don't worry, he asked many times to send knives and I always said no


----------



## Bico Doce

I don’t see what your guys problem is with spartak008. From what I gathered from those PM’s is that he is living his best life and he just wants you to live yours. Sounds like a great guy that offers great deals on rare knives. We could use a more of his positive attitude around here.

Have a blessed day


----------



## Hockey3081

ian said:


> Exactly, I got the same sort of passive aggressive pms too.



Pls post.




Jville said:


> Come on guys. I think this sweet story about his son will change all your guys mind. He sent me this to answer my reply of “your son must play for the Dolphins.”
> 
> View attachment 155440



Damn bro. He privately sent a stranger a clip of his kid (not weird at all) and you basically turned around and publicly asked if he was tryna lock horns.


----------



## Jville

Hockey3081 said:


> Pls post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn bro. He privately sent a stranger a clip of his kid (not weird at all) and you basically turned around and publicly asked if he was tryna lock horns.


I know what lock horns means, but what do you mean? I posted his son “must play for the dolphins.” It was a joke that he was “flipper”. He totally glossed over it. I mean, if he is that delusional


----------



## tostadas

It's too bad we didn't get to see whether that $400 saya sold or not


----------



## Hockey3081

Jville said:


> I know what lock horns means, but what do you mean? I posted his son “must play for the dolphins.” It was a joke that he was “flipper”. He totally glossed over it. I mean, if he is that delusional



Was just making a joke about you calling him out despite him sending you some super weird DM. And to answer your last question - more than likely.


----------



## Jville

Hockey3081 said:


> Was just making a joke about you calling him out despite him sending you some super weird DM. And to answer your last question - more than likely.


Haha, I kind of thought you were joking. But I wasn’t , I thought maybe, just maybe, you were calling me a meanie. Yeah he sent me that DM a while ago. I didn’t bust him out or even reply then. I was just like whatever. He also tried to buy my Takeda nakiri, that I wouldn’t of sold to him anyway, but I politely answered his questions.  He was having trouble figuring out if it was the more coveted classic(AS) or the NAS. Since I used the term classic it threw him off. I’m quite sure he would of had that on BST with a hefty markup. If you are going to flip you got to know you shi+


----------



## captaincaed

Fanmail?


----------



## Forty Ounce

captaincaed said:


> View attachment 155478
> 
> 
> fanmail?


Looks like Mr. Holier Than Thou lost his temper


----------



## captaincaed

Funny how that works


----------



## tostadas

I think we all agree he's an a** scammer and doesnt belong here. But does anyone know what finally got him banned?


----------



## Forty Ounce

tostadas said:


> I think we all agree he's an a** scammer and doesnt belong here. But does anyone know what finally got him banned?


My guess is that enough people were upset by his very non-christian(or whatever the fk religion he hides behind) actions that it was easier to keep the peace by banning his stupid ass.


----------



## Bico Doce

I want to know how this guy has like 1k followers on Instagram. And there are makers that follow this guy as well. I don’t want to follow him but I’m very curious about the content he puts out - my guess it’s a mix of Bible verse and FU’s to the KKF mods.


----------



## tostadas

IG recommended him to me once. He appeared to have quite a large collection of knives from a number of makers. Of course, they're also all brand new, and worth 3x because you know... these kind of things make him smile when he picks them up and doesnt use em ever.


----------



## Forty Ounce

Iirc, he got into the knife game sometime last year and went crazy with buying knives. At first, I thought he was someone with a lot of money to burn. Since I noticed him overcharging for knives, my new guess is that he is someone with an addiction problem and his credit card payments are catching up with him.


----------



## Matus

Who is David?


----------



## Hockey3081

Bico Doce said:


> I want to know how this guy has like 1k followers on Instagram. And there are makers that follow this guy as well. I don’t want to follow him but I’m very curious about the content he puts out - my guess it’s a mix of Bible verse and FU’s to the KKF mods.



I think it’s like indirectly buying friends/followers. He has spent a ton of dough on knives and reading his random comments is borderline nauseating the way he fawns over makers. And by ton of dough, I mean paying whatever premium price was asked for. One of the weirder ones is this Rambo-looking culinary knife commissioned from
Hazenberg. But if you go back and read @crockerculinary post about him, that’s the real behind the scenes on him.



Matus said:


> Who is David?



I assumed @daveb. Inquiring minds are inquisitive here.


----------



## Sdo

Bico Doce said:


> I want to know how this guy has like 1k followers on Instagram. And there are makers that follow this guy as well. I don’t want to follow him but I’m very curious about the content he puts out - my guess it’s a mix of Bible verse and FU’s to the KKF mods.



I guess the below link answers to your question. I leave a summary for the fast readers 









Five Universal Laws of Human Stupidity - Campus Magazine


In 1976, the University of California, Berkeley, published an essay that Carlo M. Cipolla, a professor of economic history wrote, which outlines the fundamental laws of a force he thought was human’s greatest existential threat: stupidity. According to Cipolla, stupid people share several...




www.campus.sg











Cheers!


----------



## captaincaed

Man I posted like he asked, now I'm banned from him IG page.


----------



## stringer

captaincaed said:


> Man I posted like he asked, now I'm banned from him IG page.


Bummer. His content is very entertaining.


----------



## ian

Looks like his IG is private now.


----------



## daveb

I wonder if he'll go for the "supporting member" level for my fan club....


----------



## M1k3

daveb said:


> I wonder if he'll go for the "supporting member" level for my fan club....


On OnlyHaters.com?


----------



## ian

daveb said:


> I wonder if he'll go for the "supporting member" level for my fan club....



Is there an option to sponsor you as a moderator for $200/month? If not, you gotta get on that!


----------



## Hockey3081

daveb said:


> I wonder if he'll go for the "supporting member" level for my fan club....



Lifetime Supporter or gtfo


----------



## tostadas

Man we had over half of a 50page thread on this guy. And now he's gone. What are we supposed to do now?


----------



## daveb

M1k3 said:


> On OnlyHaters.com?



Do I have to get nekid for that?


----------



## captaincaed

daveb said:


> Do I have to get nekid for that?


Yes, and he gets to watch


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

daveb said:


> Do I have to get nekid for that?



You could probably advertise in this thread provided you have a... uh hum... significant mark up.


----------



## crockerculinary

what did he do that finally got him banned?


----------



## Jville

crockerculinary said:


> what did he do that finally got him banned?


That is the question.


----------



## Rangen

Jville said:


> That is the question.



It cannot have been a hard decision. When you slip into the crevices between the rules, and commit moral, but not legal, offenses in the safe space you think you've created, you invite the custodians of those rules to find a way.


----------



## Kippington

Rangen said:


> ... you invite the custodians of those rules to find a way.


----------



## sansho

i'm really curious, too.

not saying i'm on his side, but i hope he was banned for something beyond what we all already know. afaik, he didn't actually break any rules. people should only be banned for breaking rules.


----------



## ian

sansho said:


> i'm really curious, too.
> 
> not saying i'm on his side, but i hope he was banned for something beyond what we all already know. afaik, he didn't actually break any rules. people should only be banned for breaking rules.



In principle, I agree. But then again, is there really a strict set of forum rules out there, other than the BST guidelines? I feel like mostly everything’s up to the discretion of the mods, and that “don’t be an ***hole” should be part of such an informal rulebook. Imagine someone starting billions of threads with personal attacks against different members; you’d want them banned. I’m not saying I know that Sparten crossed the line, but I do believe there _is_ a line.


----------



## Brian Weekley

ian said:


> In principle, I agree. But then again, is there really a strict set of forum rules out there, other than the BST guidelines? I feel like mostly everything’s up to the discretion of the mods, and that “don’t be an ***hole” should be part of such an informal rulebook. Imagine someone starting billions of threads with personal attacks against different members; you’d want them banned. I’m not saying I know that Sparten crossed the line, but I do believe there _is_ a line.



Hard to describe in words but easily recognizable when presented.


----------



## timebard

ian said:


> In principle, I agree. But then again, is there really a strict set of forum rules out there, other than the BST guidelines? I feel like mostly everything’s up to the discretion of the mods, and that “don’t be an ***hole” should be part of such an informal rulebook. Imagine someone starting billions of threads with personal attacks against different members; you’d want them banned. I’m not saying I know that Sparten crossed the line, but I do believe there _is_ a line.



Agreed. In any sufficiently large group, you need to have some wiggle room for removing people based on a subjective judgment that they're making the community/organization sufficiently worse even if they're not violating specific objective policies. Some folks will always figure out how to hew to the letter of the law while being insufferable. If you don't have some room to remove them, you'll slowly drive out positive contributors who don't want to deal with obnoxious behavior. 

(Not judging if that's the case here--I pretty much ignored the guy.)


----------



## Jville




----------



## captaincaed

Brian Weekley said:


> Hard to describe in words but easily recognizable when presented.


Like "obscenity"?


----------



## sansho

ian said:


> In principle, I agree. But then again, is there really a strict set of forum rules out there, other than the BST guidelines? I feel like mostly everything’s up to the discretion of the mods, and that “don’t be an ***hole” should be part of such an informal rulebook. Imagine someone starting billions of threads with personal attacks against different members; you’d want them banned. I’m not saying I know that Sparten crossed the line, but I do believe there _is_ a line.



i actually haven't looked at the overall forum rules since joining and can't remember what they're like.

there are different ways to run things, and that's fine! and again, i'm not complaining that he's out. i've even made a few 007 jokes, lol. i guess i was just getting up on my soapbox and preaching out of boredom since this thread is a shartstorm anyways. 



timebard said:


> Agreed. In any sufficiently large group, you need to have some wiggle room for removing people based on a subjective judgment that they're making the community/organization sufficiently worse even if they're not violating specific objective policies. Some folks will always figure out how to hew to the letter of the law while being insufferable. If you don't have some room to remove them, you'll slowly drive out positive contributors who don't want to deal with obnoxious behavior.
> 
> (Not judging if that's the case here--I pretty much ignored the guy.)



imo, the rules should actually become more well-defined as a group grows. not the other way around. that's how i have done things in groups i've managed.

start with simple rules to cover anticipated issues but don't expand them into endless hypotheticals. if and when needed, add new rules. enforce them fairly and consistently.

company culture also usually works this way. loose in the beginning, and then eventually you get a big HR dept, TPS reports, and soulless corporate culture.


----------



## LostHighway

captaincaed said:


> Like "obscenity"?



Justice Potter Stewart has joined the thread


----------



## josemartinlopez

Can everyone start talking about me again and get this thread back on track?


----------



## Bico Doce

josemartinlopez said:


> Can everyone start talking about me again and get this thread back on track?


You’ve been too quiet. Start making some deals and add some excitement to the forums


----------



## josemartinlopez

And get banned again?


----------



## BillHanna

josemartinlopez said:


> Can everyone start talking about me again and get this thread back on track?


When’s the next blog post?


----------



## josemartinlopez

Been so busy... try to get that back on track next year. Long queue of knives to try and post about.


----------



## daveb

Your record is not at risk....


----------



## Bico Doce

josemartinlopez said:


> And get banned again?


Hopefully you can skirt that line where it’s controversial enough to be entertaining but not enough to get you banned


----------



## bkultra

josemartinlopez said:


> And get banned again?



I will buy this


----------



## M1k3

josemartinlopez said:


> Can everyone start talking about me again and get this thread back on track?


If we were to start talking about you, what would your favorite subject be? And what about it makes it your favorite subject? What are your thoughts on other subjects?


----------



## tcmx3

josemartinlopez said:


> Can everyone start talking about me again and get this thread back on track?



get into natural stones.

I have enough of them around that you can "I will buy this" every day for more than a month


----------



## josemartinlopez

I find stones even harder to store than knives!


----------



## BillHanna

josemartinlopez said:


> I find stones even harder to store than knives!


Build a wall


----------



## tostadas

tcmx3 said:


> get into natural stones.
> 
> I have enough of them around that you can "I will buy this" every day for more than a month


just tag JML on all your posts


----------



## Dull_Apex

BillHanna said:


> When’s the next blog post?


@josemartinlopez 
I'd like to request a Kobayashi v Kobayashi comparison blog (Raicho/Hiroki v Kei)


----------



## tostadas

Dull_Apex said:


> @josemartinlopez
> I'd like to request a Kobayashi v Kobayashi comparison blog (Raicho/Hiroki v Kei)


vs Kobayashi


----------



## josemartinlopez

Wait, wait, I'm still sorting out all the Tanakas. I need to get up to speed on all these Kobayashis as only Raicho No Ren interested me so far.


----------



## captaincaed

josemartinlopez said:


> And get banned again?


You can keep @ian company


----------



## M1k3

josemartinlopez said:


> Wait, wait, I'm still sorting out all the Tanakas. I need to get up to speed on all these Kobayashis as only Raicho No Ren interested me so far.


After that will you be sorting out questions we asked? Wouldn't want to write anything that's not true, right? What method is your favorite to use to sort out the questions?


----------



## tcmx3

M1k3 said:


> After that will you be sorting out questions we asked? Wouldn't want to write anything that's not true, right? What method is your favorite to use to sort out the questions?



Im trying to figure out if he has enough to justify a radix sort or if just a basic merge sort would work better


----------



## IsoJ

@josemartinlopez but how can Tanaka has the time to forge all those knives? Or is he Mazaki san? And when do you start flipping knives(I could use some Singaporean used car sales speaks in my collection )


----------



## M1k3

IsoJ said:


> @josemartinlopez but how can Tanaka has the time to forge all those knives? Or is he Mazaki san? And when do you start flipping knives(I could use some Singaporean used car sales speaks in my collection )


+$1k USD for you!*

*$50 USD off for cooks


----------



## IsoJ

M1k3 said:


> +$1k USD for you!*
> 
> *$50 USD off for cooks


Is it a dream cutter?


----------



## M1k3

IsoJ said:


> Is it a dream cutter?


BNIB never used. Cuts like a Lightsaber through room temperature butter.


----------



## IsoJ

M1k3 said:


> BNIB never used. Cuts like a Lightsaber through room temperature butter.


Salted or unsalted? Does it comes with batteries and a charger?


----------



## M1k3

IsoJ said:


> Salted or unsalted? Does it comes with batteries and a charger?


Very salty. Batteries are extra.


----------



## josemartinlopez

IsoJ said:


> @josemartinlopez And when do you start flipping knives(I could use some Singaporean used car sales speaks in my collection )


Sigh, too busy to buy knives, selling knives an even tougher chore. Might be 3 months before I get around to packing one. Then when I remember who sold me the knife, I don't feel like reselling it.

Singaporean used car sales speaks is easy. "Better than Malaysian knife. (No got real knife in Malaysia, all knife come from Singapore.)" "This brand knife appear 1 second on edge of screen in Crazy Rich Asians." "Big knife mean big..."


----------



## Jeff

LostHighway said:


> Justice Potter Stewart has joined the thread


ha ha ha … I hope we are talking about “KNIFE PORN”


----------



## Pauldoduy

tostadas said:


> I think we all agree he's an a** scammer and doesnt belong here. But does anyone know what finally got him banned?


He's really a scammer. He scammed a seller in Japan and got 2 knives worth more than $1,000. Be cautious when dealing with him.
For your reference:


----------



## sansho

who sends knives without payment?


----------



## Pauldoduy

sansho said:


> who sends knives without payment?


He ordered 4pcs. 2pcs was finished & shipped. Because the seller didn't receive the payment, they didn't ship the rest. When they ask the payment, he keeps making an appointment time and time again but never paying.


----------



## josemartinlopez

You said a seller in Japan, but the Instagram account has a Vietnamese name?


----------



## Pauldoduy

josemartinlopez said:


> You said a seller in Japan, but the Instagram account has a Vietnamese name?


He is a Vietnamese in Osaka, Japan.


----------



## Hockey3081

Pauldoduy said:


> He's really a scammer. He scammed a seller in Japan and got 2 knives worth more than $1,000. Be cautious when dealing with him.
> For your reference:




This fellow is looking at it all wrong. He didn’t “scam” him, he just received free products in exchange for future publicity like all good “influencers” do…






*insert douche chills here*


----------



## captaincaed

Pauldoduy said:


> He's really a scammer. He scammed a seller in Japan and got 2 knives worth more than $1,000. Be cautious when dealing with him.
> For your reference:



Max Shadmani

Other details in the post.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Hockey3081 said:


> This fellow is looking at it all wrong. He didn’t “scam” him, he just received free products in exchange for future publicity like all good “influencers” do…
> 
> View attachment 161706
> 
> 
> *insert douche chills here*


I'm sure his 3 kids must be very proud. Finding inner peace and scamming fellow enthusiasts are lofty ideals indeed. 

Q: …and tell us anything else you’d like share about yourself!

A: Finding inner peace seems to be what everyone chases, as it has been the case with me, I’ve found solace, peace and control over my busy mind and thoughts by practicing yoga, and I became a yoga teacher in December 2019 and started my journey helping others find the same. Yoga has been one of the best things in my life, besides my kids!


----------



## Pauldoduy

Corradobrit1 said:


> I'm sure his 3 kids must be very proud. Finding inner peace and scamming fellow enthusiasts are lofty ideals indeed.
> 
> Q: …and tell us anything else you’d like share about yourself!
> 
> A: Finding inner peace seems to be what everyone chases, as it has been the case with me, I’ve found solace, peace and control over my busy mind and thoughts by practicing yoga, and I became a yoga teacher in December 2019 and started my journey helping others find the same. Yoga has been one of the best things in my life, besides my kids!


Please don't hurt the kids. They are just little angels. I was just trying to warn people not to experience the same thing.


----------



## tostadas

Pauldoduy said:


> He's really a scammer. He scammed a seller in Japan and got 2 knives worth more than $1,000. Be cautious when dealing with him.
> For your reference:



That's really sad. Best not to even deal with him.


----------



## daveb

Certainly wouldn't buy any yoga pants from him.

"My favorite pair - never used!"


----------



## crockerculinary

“Some say I’m an Instagram influencer…” 

And the other 99.9999% say you’re a POS.


----------



## M1k3

daveb said:


> Certainly wouldn't buy any yoga pants from him.
> 
> "My favorite pair - never used!"


"Discount for industry people"


----------



## daveb

M1k3 said:


> "Discount for industry people"



I'm raising the price tomorrow!


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

It's all about the man behind the spandex.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

Anyone want to go pig hunting down in Alabama?


----------



## M1k3

Chicagohawkie said:


> Anyone want to go pig hunting down in Alabama?


Will there be yoga pants involved?


----------



## Hockey3081

M1k3 said:


> "Discount for industry people"



WORLDWIDE SHIPPING INCLUDED!

Also, hello Agent Sparten007! I’m sure you’re still lurking, ya grimy cretin. Still searching for that peace you hoped I would find.


----------



## choochoochop

I thought an upcharge of more than double might count as flipping. The person in question swore he didn't know what I was talking about. That was until I linked him the exact handle from the maker's IG.



The same seller also claimed other handles by the same maker as his own on reddit.


----------



## choochoochop

And here was his response after


----------



## ethompson

Woah


----------



## M1k3

choochoochop said:


> And here was his response after
> 
> View attachment 161833


And that same capitalist system allows you to call them out on their lies.


----------



## WiriWiri

What a lovely spiv - have fun taunting him and sending links to ‘his’ designs, only at half price,

This happens a lot on Etsy, where a lot of sellers seem to specialise in buying ordinary mass-produced tat and repackaging it as ‘homemade/artisan’ product - spotted a recent seller literally opening up a pack of Xmas decorations and selling them indivdually at 10X cost.

This guy’s an amateur by comparison. You can really make a show of someone on Etsy, bur Reddit’s one of those kindly communities full of non-judgmental people who won‘t leap to conclusions. You bring the tar, and I‘ll get plucking them birds for the feather concession.


----------



## big_adventure

WiriWiri said:


> What a lovely spiv - have fun taunting him and sending links to ‘his’ designs, only at half price,
> 
> This happens a lot on Etsy, where a lot of sellers seem to specialise in buying ordinary mass-produced tat and repackaging it as ‘homemade/artisan’ product - spotted a recent seller literally opening up a pack of Xmas decorations and selling them indivdually at 10X cost.
> 
> This guy’s an amateur by comparison. You can really make a show of someone on Etsy, bur Reddit’s one of those kindly communities full of non-judgmental people who won‘t leap to conclusions. You bring the tar, and I‘ll get plucking them birds for the feather concession.



Your take on Reddit had me giggling.


----------



## WiriWiri

I mean, Reddit’s a bit fruity at times, but it’d be awful if the same was happening on this fair site. 

On KKF we’re entirely friendly, supine types that don’t mind being mislead or deceived, as long as we can defend capitalist values and bring pish about the free market into it. Am I right?


----------



## M1k3

choochoochop said:


> I thought an upcharge of more than double might count as flipping. The person in question swore he didn't know what I was talking about. That was until I linked him the exact handle from the maker's IG.
> 
> 
> 
> The same seller also claimed other handles by the same maker as his own on reddit.



You should let the handle maker know in a message.


----------



## ian

choochoochop said:


> And here was his response after
> 
> View attachment 161833



Hmm, that’s unfortunate. So they’re passing stuff off as their own that’s not? I don’t have skin in this game, but that makes me not trust the knife that this mysterious* member listed on BST.


*whose name starts with a K, is from CA and had a certain number of messages.

Edit: Ah, I just saw the handle thread.


----------



## e30Birdy

ian said:


> Hmm, that’s unfortunate. So they’re passing stuff off as their own that’s not? I don’t have skin in this game, but that makes me not trust the knife that this mysterious* member listed on BST.
> 
> 
> *whose name starts with a K, is from CA and had a certain number of messages.
> 
> Edit: Ah, I just saw the handle thread.



I personally hope after a answer like that was posted in the handle thread that people blacklist the mysterious person. They seemed to have edited their post and then said they didn't after people called them out on it.


----------



## Rangen

Raising the price in a fit of pique? Seems awfully familiar.


----------



## Rangen

In case anyone is inclined to credit his claim that he did not edit the post, here is the original text:
====
Up for sale is a wa handle I finished but haven’t found a project for yet. Rosewood burl with a blonde horn spacer and a black horn ferrule.

All measurements metric
L: 138
W at base: 24.13
W at top: 22.53
Tang hole width: 11.71
Hole depth: 62
Weight: 52 grams
$140.00 usd shipped world wide 
====
I had left it open in a tab last night, because it seemed off to me, and I wanted another look in the cold light of day.


----------



## WiriWiri

e30Birdy said:


> I personally hope after a answer like that was posted in the handle thread that people blacklist the mysterious person. They seemed to have edited their post and then said they didn't after people called them out on it.



I kind of like him for the comedy value. His outburst on the handle thread was funny, plus makes me look like Nostradamus about the ludicrous capitalism defence (see above) used to defend **** behaviour and sins of omission

I think he might be selling a knife that he’s made/assembled elsewhere too. I dimly recall that he may have etched a sparkly maker’s mark on it too, which looked like a bit like a vajazzle for a blade iirc. I didn’t worry too much that anyone would be ripped off or actually purchase the horror at the time.

Anyway, he should stay. He‘s classy,


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

A true capitalist would've charged for the lecture.


----------



## ian

WiriWiri said:


> I think he might be selling a knife that he’s made/assembled elsewhere too. I dimly recall that he may have etched a sparkly maker’s mark on it too, which looked like a bit like a vajazzle for a blade iirc. I didn’t worry too much that anyone would be ripped off or actually purchase the horror at the time.








WTS - 150/330 52100 petty with saya


Ok first try at selling here so please be gentile. I’m sure I’ll mess up formatting and or protocol [selling][workdwide] 159/330 52100 high carbon steel petty with rosewood and water buffalo horn handle and padauk & black palm saya. 150mm petty utility knife. 52100 steel, oil quenched and...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## WiriWiri

ian said:


> WTS - 150/330 52100 petty with saya
> 
> 
> Ok first try at selling here so please be gentile. I’m sure I’ll mess up formatting and or protocol [selling][workdwide] 159/330 52100 high carbon steel petty with rosewood and water buffalo horn handle and padauk & black palm saya. 150mm petty utility knife. 52100 steel, oil quenched and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com



I think Konosuke are safe. Good luck with that one.


----------



## Cliffkol

Pauldoduy said:


> He's really a scammer. He scammed a seller in Japan and got 2 knives worth more than $1,000. Be cautious when dealing with him.
> For your reference:



Is this for real? No one would send merchandise before payment.


----------



## esoo

Cliffkol said:


> Is this for real? No one would send merchandise before payment.



The person in question has a history of screwing the makers and retailers from what I've seen here. Probably got the vendor to ship on some promise as there were the other two knives coming.


----------



## e30Birdy

WiriWiri said:


> I kind of like him for the comedy value. His outburst on the handle thread was funny, plus makes me look like Nostradamus about the ludicrous capitalism defence (see above) used to defend **** behaviour and sins of omission
> 
> I think he might be selling a knife that he’s made/assembled elsewhere too. I dimly recall that he may have etched a sparkly maker’s mark on it too, which looked like a bit like a vajazzle for a blade iirc. I didn’t worry too much that anyone would be ripped off or actually purchase the horror at the time.
> 
> Anyway, he should stay. He‘s classy,



Oh, I was not talking about banning him. Just that people shouldn't buy from him just because he is a liar and thinks he is a special sort of capitalist of some sort. It's comedic that is for sure.


----------



## Cliffkol

esoo said:


> The person in question has a history of screwing the makers and retailers from what I've seen here. Probably got the vendor to ship on some promise as there were the other two knives coming.


Got it! You can only learn from your mistakes. I Bet that vendor has added a few doublechecks before sending mdse before payment.


----------



## Pauldoduy

Cliffkol said:


> Is this for real? No one would send merchandise before payment.


For your reference


----------



## tostadas

The handle guy trying to sell at "240" handle with a 60mm hole... That might just _barely _fit my 160mm santoku. But the hilarious part is that he says he's offering to drill it deeper. However, his reddit post from a day ago suggests that he doesn't even know how to make a tang hole.


----------



## tchan001

fast learner.


----------



## esoo

tostadas said:


> The handle guy trying to sell at "240" handle with a 60mm hole... That might just _barely _fit my 160mm santoku. But the hilarious part is that he says he's offering to drill it deeper. However, his reddit post from a day ago suggests that he doesn't even know how to make a tang hole.
> 
> View attachment 161897
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 161898




My 210 HD2 had a tang of 110mm on it. And he said that 60mm hole was long enough of a tang for a 240 he made. Can we say forward balance my friends? I knew you could.


----------



## Matus

Rangen said:


> In case anyone is inclined to credit his claim that he did not edit the post, here is the original text:
> ...


He did indeed and I reversed it


----------



## ethompson

Wait… so you reversed his price hike too? Maybe he’s right and this is Kommunist Knife Forums not Kapitalist Knife Forums!


----------



## Matus

ethompson said:


> Wait… so you reversed his price hike too? Maybe he’s right and this is Kommunist Knife Forums not Kapitalist Knife Forums!


What price hike? Did I miss something? 

EDIT: I just went and checked ... and had a laugh.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Matus said:


> He did indeed and I reversed it


Can you also edit the description? NOT burl rosewood. Its redwood as stated by THE maker.


----------



## Matus

That would go beyond a simple reverse, sorry.


----------



## WildBoar

Can someone please explain why he is allowed to wish that only non-Jewish people read his For Sale add for the knife?


KilgoreTrout said:


> Ok first try at selling here so please be gentile.


----------



## ethompson

Can’t say he didn’t warn us…

Also looks like the mods from r/woodworking called him out on claiming a handle as his own work when it wasn’t.


----------



## e30Birdy

ethompson said:


> View attachment 161903
> Can’t say he didn’t warn us…
> 
> Also looks like the mods from r/woodworking called him out on claiming a handle as his own work when it wasn’t.



I went and looked up that thread on r/woodworking and it is pretty much gold. Basically has no clue about woodworking at all.


----------



## Greasylake

choochoochop said:


> I thought an upcharge of more than double might count as flipping. The person in question swore he didn't know what I was talking about. That was until I linked him the exact handle from the maker's IG.
> 
> 
> 
> The same seller also claimed other handles by the same maker as his own on reddit.



I ordered a full horn handle from that maker, I didn't even know he had an IG! Two piece horn handle (handle and ferrule both horn) made to my custom measurements was less than $80 shipped from Vietnam...


----------



## big_adventure

Greasylake said:


> I ordered a full horn handle from that maker, I didn't even know he had an IG! Two piece horn handle (handle and ferrule both horn) made to my custom measurements was less than $80 shipped from Vietnam...



Now you can sell it for $10000! Great buy!


----------



## Greasylake

big_adventure said:


> Now you can sell it for $10000! Great buy!


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Greasylake said:


> I ordered a full horn handle from that maker, I didn't even know he had an IG! Two piece horn handle (handle and ferrule both horn) made to my custom measurements was less than $80 shipped from Vietnam...



If I recall, that person registered here a couple times and tried to sell his handles without becoming a vendor. Might be a different person but sure seems similar.


----------



## Greasylake

HumbleHomeCook said:


> If I recall, that person registered here a couple times and tried to sell his handles without becoming a vendor. Might be a different person but sure seems similar.


I have no idea. I haven't been around here all that long so if he did it was before I joined. I like the handle regardless.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Greasylake said:


> I have no idea. I haven't been around here all that long so if he did it was before I joined. I like the handle regardless.



Yeah I remember thinking they looked nice. It was just something that popped into my head.


----------



## captaincaed

Pauldoduy said:


> For your reference
> View attachment 161894
> View attachment 161893
> View attachment 161895
> View attachment 161896


Dafuq?


----------



## WiriWiri

Matus said:


> He did indeed and I reversed it



Appreciate that it’s a tough balance, but I‘ve just re-read the edited rosewood/rosewood handle thread and I’m a little sad how it‘s ended up. I thought it ended pretty well previously to be fair - everyone seemed fairly civil and polite, reduced to asking questions and ‘playing the BST game’; trying to expose that the seller may not know much about woodworking, let alone actually be capable of making those handles by himself.

Which actually caused him to blow and confess that he was a flipper. It felt a bit like the bit at the end of a Scooby Doo episode, where the villain whips off his mask and curses how he would have got away with if it wasn‘t for those ‘pesky KKFers,’ only with the added value of an unconvincing rant about his capitalist right to act like an unprincipled tosser and how he‘d wasted $30 on supporting membership In the hope of mugging others off. Links to the flipper lthread were provided, buyers could make an informed choice whether to buy his overpriced ‘refinish’ of someone else‘s work and all was good with the world; job done.

Which is why it’s a little grating that someone official has basically whipped the villain’s mask back on, erased all trace of the deception and then threatened Fred and his beards not to do the same again, or he’ll impound the mystery van and sod up the scooby snacks for good, And he can still sell someone else‘s work, carefully crafting his words to suggest that he’s made those handles rather than just added a lick of oil and a massive mark up

No answers really - and you can probably gather I’m more comatose than angry - but it all seems a bit muddled and dissatisfactory, a free pass for asshats and those keen to mislead.


----------



## Rangen

OK, I'm going to ask straight up. Is Mr. Trout also the banned Mr. Sparten? The similarities in personality, philosophy, behavior, and writing style seem amazingly matched.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Rangen said:


> OK, I'm going to ask straight up. Is Mr. Trout also the banned Mr. Sparten? The similarities in personality, philosophy, behavior, and writing style seem amazingly matched.






Or this character?


----------



## ian

Rangen said:


> OK, I'm going to ask straight up. Is Mr. Trout also the banned Mr. Sparten? The similarities in personality, philosophy, behavior, and writing style seem amazingly matched.



This Kilgore guy seems more aggressive than passive aggressive. To me, they vibe different kinds of a**hole. And Sparten wouldn’t be caught dead selling his “own” work. That’s beneath him as a collector.


----------



## WiriWiri

Rangen said:


> OK, I'm going to ask straight up. Is Mr. Trout also the banned Mr. Sparten? The similarities in personality, philosophy, behavior, and writing style seem amazingly matched.



My Flipdar says no. The new guy has added distinct geek snd incel flava to the gitmix.

Sperten had some nice knives for sale too, made by capable makers. And the new guy has a knife for sale, best leave It at that


----------



## Corradobrit1

The lady doth protest too much.




__





Rehandle Recommendations Requested


I would like to rehandle my Martell western 240 and am soliciting recommendations for craftsmen. Dave was originally going to rehandle the knife himself but circumstances changed and he is unavailable to complete the work for the foreseeable future. The knife I would like to have rehandled is...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Reference to earlier pics posted by the actual maker.


----------



## Rangen

WiriWiri said:


> My Flipdar says no. The new guy has added distinct geek snd incel flava to the gitmix.
> 
> Sperten had some nice knives for sale too, made by capable makers. And the new guy has a knife for sale, best leave It at that



I am adding "Flipdar" to my vocabulary. I will try to remember to credit you, but no promises.


----------



## Hockey3081

ian said:


> This Kilgore guy seems more aggressive than passive aggressive. To me, they vibe different kinds of a**hole. And Sparten wouldn’t be caught dead selling his “own” work. That’s beneath him as a collector an influencer.



Fixed that for you. I’m hoping they unban Sparty and BST welcomes him with open arms to sell the knives from this fellow. If he paid nothing, a penny+ in price is a flip and will give this thread the legs it needs.


----------



## Jville

The Kilgoretrout guy is flipping handles like he made them and admitted it? By the time I read the thread it was sanitized or flippershipped.


----------



## mk4pi

Hey! I recognized these handles, and the maker. I believe the maker was on KKF like half a year ago (@JackPH i believe) but then got banned. So now you telling there is someone else flipping around his handle in the forum. Now that is juicy .



Corradobrit1 said:


> View attachment 161938


----------



## Corradobrit1

Jville said:


> The Kilgoretrout guy is flipping handles like he made them and admitted it?


Exactly. As stated by Mr 

"I dont know if This is kosher(the mods are very nice but also seem particular about the rules) but* I just made *some 100% horn handles that came out really nice so *I’m making more* that should be ready in about a month. I attached a short clip of the last one I made, but I *also do wood with horn ferrules*. If interested pm me and *I can show you examples of lots of handles I’ve made*."


----------



## Aidan

Rangen said:


> In case anyone is inclined to credit his claim that he did not edit the post, here is the original text:
> ====
> Up for sale is a wa handle I finished but haven’t found a project for yet. Rosewood burl with a blonde horn spacer and a black horn ferrule.
> 
> All measurements metric
> L: 138
> W at base: 24.13
> W at top: 22.53
> Tang hole width: 11.71
> Hole depth: 62
> Weight: 52 grams
> $140.00 usd shipped world wide
> ====
> I had left it open in a tab last night, because it seemed off to me, and I wanted another look in the cold light of day.


I also thought something was wrong as the description has the ferrule and spacer descriptions the wrong way round


----------



## WiriWiri

Corradobrit1 said:


> Exactly. As stated by Mr
> 
> "I dont know if This is kosher(the mods are very nice but also seem particular about the rules) but* I just made *some 100% horn handles that came out really nice so *I’m making more* that should be ready in about a month. I attached a short clip of the last one I made, but I *also do wood with horn ferrules*. If interested pm me and *I can show you examples of lots of handles I’ve made*."



Your persistence is admirable - I think we can establish a pattern of deception and more than few porky pies along the way. Sadly I’m not Judge Judy and my marsupial powers in this kangaroo court are strictly limited. I guess the warning is here on the appropriate flipper thread and that this popcorn-munching mob should be sated

But at the same time I‘m still a bit bemused by the whole brutal editing thing on the original Rosewood/Redwood handle thread.There used to be a dramatic confession of flipperdom and the source of the handles on there from the seller, complete with a splendid justification of his actions (capitalism entitled him to pay $30 here in the hope of flipping basically) May have been misguided, but it was the seller’s choice to espouse those fine capitalist brand values, plus all the aggression and snideness seemed to come in his rant. Seemed a perfect end really - posters had been civil to him until that point, skirting around the BST rules about value, mainly by asking pertinent questions - and now any buyer could make an informed choice, signposted on the very sales thread for convenience.

But now all that‘s been wiped off, along with the easy link to this thread, so the ’villain’ of the piece basically gets to keep his somewhat carefully worded, some would say misleading ad on there. Those questions that exposed that he was clueless at woodwork and gave duff advice that would lead to bad results have all gone. He’s basically free to keep fishing in the hope of hooking some unfortunate with his misleading bait

Now I‘m far from a paragon of high principles, but even my piss-tentacles quiver a little at the injustice of that one. I appreciate that the mods want a consistent, manageable approach to modding BST and that any buyer should take care in purchasing, but this does seem an arse about tit result that stacks the cards in favour of bad actors. I do expect the buyer to take precautions, but at the same time I don‘t expect the authorities to effectively give the perp a leg up and a memory/evidence-wiping device to have a second crack.


----------



## Migraine

I do not get the obsession the mods have with protecting obvious fraudsters in BST on this site at all.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Migraine said:


> I do not get the obsession the mods have with protecting obvious fraudsters in BST on this site at all.


Especially when the descriptions are full of deliberate falsehoods ie burl rosewood vs redwood, to attract a higher price. Surely the mods should insist the ad is corrected if allowed to stand.


----------



## Jville

Corradobrit1 said:


> Especially when the descriptions are full of deliberate falsehoods ie burl rosewood vs redwood, to attract a higher price. Surely the mods should insist the ad is corrected if allowed to stand.


If you doing blatantly devious stuff, you shouldn’t even be allowed to post in BST. Why is it allowed to be a playground for liars and thieves?


----------



## AT5760

Yeah, the ban hammer should have dropped now. Refund the person’s supporting membership and say goodbye.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

C'mon now, maybe it's not his fault. Why, he even said in his intro that it's been a long time since he was on an old school forum. Maybe it's just a misunderstanding of all this low tech...






Hey, I’m new here.


I’m a newish maker of japanese style chef knives with traditional wa handles. Up to this point all of my sales have been on reedit or Instagram. It’s been a long tim since I’ve been a member of an old school forum but I thought I should branch out because I’ve been told there’s a lot of users...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





I mean, morals are so yesterday.


----------



## Corradobrit1

AT5760 said:


> Yeah, the ban hammer should have dropped now.


Has dropped.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Corradobrit1 said:


> Has dropped.



Thanks mod staff.


----------



## tostadas

Man, he didnt even last a single week, and only little more than a page on this thread. That's too bad. Wonder how long we'll have to wait til the next one. Bets anyone?


----------



## M1k3

tostadas said:


> Man, he didnt even last a single week, and only little more than a page on this thread. That's too bad. Wonder how long we'll have to wait til the next one. Bets anyone?


I'll take 1 month, +/- 3 days.


----------



## toddnmd

WiriWiri said:


> Your persistence is admirable - I think we can establish a pattern of deception and more than few porky pies along the way. Sadly I’m not Judge Judy and my marsupial powers in this kangaroo court are strictly limited. I guess the warning is here on the appropriate flipper thread and that this popcorn-munching mob should be sated
> 
> But at the same time I‘m still a bit bemused by the whole brutal editing thing on the original Rosewood/Redwood handle thread.There used to be a dramatic confession of flipperdom and the source of the handles on there from the seller, complete with a splendid justification of his actions (capitalism entitled him to pay $30 here in the hope of flipping basically) May have been misguided, but it was the seller’s choice to espouse those fine capitalist brand values, plus all the aggression and snideness seemed to come in his rant. Seemed a perfect end really - posters had been civil to him until that point, skirting around the BST rules about value, mainly by asking pertinent questions - and now any buyer could make an informed choice, signposted on the very sales thread for convenience.
> 
> But now all that‘s been wiped off, along with the easy link to this thread, so the ’villain’ of the piece basically gets to keep his somewhat carefully worded, some would say misleading ad on there. Those questions that exposed that he was clueless at woodwork and gave duff advice that would lead to bad results have all gone. He’s basically free to keep fishing in the hope of hooking some unfortunate with his misleading bait
> 
> Now I‘m far from a paragon of high principles, but even my piss-tentacles quiver a little at the injustice of that one. I appreciate that the mods want a consistent, manageable approach to modding BST and that any buyer should take care in purchasing, but this does seem an arse about tit result that stacks the cards in favour of bad actors. I do expect the buyer to take precautions, but at the same time I don‘t expect the authorities to effectively give the perp a leg up and a memory/evidence-wiping device to have a second crack.



Very well said. I agree with pretty much all your points, and you express yourself in a way that is fun to read, even with serious points.

My biggest issue is that there's this both sidesism that gives way too much support to bad actors than our community members (many of them longstanding and/or regular contributors who have earned respect) who are trying to point out the bad actor. This case worked out in the end with a ban, but it took a fair amount of time and effort to make it happen. And quite a bit of mod involvement. 

To add to having open discussion and transparency, and reduce mod workload, I suggest starting a new thread with a more intuitive title for "BST Transaction Discussions." Pin it to the top of the BST section. (I'd put it in the knife sales section, a similar thread could started in the non-knife section, but I care more about knife sales overall.) While this "Flipper Alert" thread has been tremendously useful, sales concerns go beyond mere flipping. Intentionally deceitful posts or even flat out lies are a far bigger issues, and it's currently not easy to call them out. The actual sales threads would stay "clean."


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

toddnmd said:


> Very well said. I agree with pretty much all your points, and you express yourself in a way that is fun to read, even with serious points.
> 
> My biggest issue is that there's this both sidesism that gives way too much support to bad actors than our community members (many of them longstanding and/or regular contributors who have earned respect) who are trying to point out the bad actor. This case worked out in the end with a ban, but it took a fair amount of time and effort to make it happen. And quite a bit of mod involvement.
> 
> To add to having open discussion and transparency, and reduce mod workload, I suggest starting a new thread with a more intuitive title for "BST Transaction Discussions." Pin it to the top of the BST section. (I'd put it in the knife sales section, a similar thread could started in the non-knife section, but I care more about knife sales overall.) While this "Flipper Alert" thread has been tremendously useful, sales concerns go beyond mere flipping. Intentionally deceitful posts or even flat out lies are a far bigger issues, and it's currently not easy to call them out. The actual sales threads would stay "clean."



Having been a moderator on more than one large forum I can say it is a tough job. The masses often demand swift action but all too often there is some gray that the general public doesn't have to be careful of but the mod staff needs to consider. They don't want to ban folks without being sure and if anyone of us were on the reverse end and it was genuinely a misunderstanding, we'd appreciate that diligence.

More often than not, the situations will sort themselves out fairly quickly.

Don't forget to use the "report" function on sales posts that you think need to be reviewed. My experience has been that the KKF staff react to reports pretty quickly.


----------



## daveb

Mod hat on.

As mentioned above, bans are not done lightly. They're not something anyone wants to do and no one mod is going to ban anyone without a consult with the others. And it is somewhat intentional that mods live in different parts of the world.

Reporting something amiss is the quickest way to get mod's attention. BST is certainly the sub that requires the most mod attention and speaking for myself, if I see a thread that I'm not interested in then I may check that it initially complies with the rules but I'm not going to follow it unless something is reported. And for the most part the members here are great about reporting when things go wrong.

The whole process may seem (and may be) slow but we're pedaling as fast as we can.

Mod hat off. Bad jokes to follow.


----------



## tostadas

I found a pic of that guy's 60mm depth handle with a blade in it. Popped up on my reddit feed. Super machi gap. 
edit: I just noticed the black glove too, to suggest that he actually made some part of it.


----------



## tcmx3

tostadas said:


> I found a pic of that guy's 60mm depth handle with a blade in it. Popped up on my reddit feed. Super Machi gap




what's going on with the front 15mm or so of that? lmao


----------



## tostadas

tcmx3 said:


> what's going on with the front 15mm or so of that? lmao


I think the craftsmanship of the grind at the tip complements the machi canyon quite well


----------



## Greasylake

tostadas said:


> I found a pic of that guy's 60mm depth handle with a blade in it. Popped up on my reddit feed. Super machi gap.
> edit: I just noticed the black glove too, to suggest that he actually made some part of it.



He has a similar one for sale for 300 bucks, I'm sure this one cost the same. In the 300 dollar price range I don't even know how this competes


----------



## tostadas

Greasylake said:


> He has a similar one for sale for 300 bucks, I'm sure this one cost the same. In the 300 dollar price range I don't even know how this competes


The one he has for sale looks to be the same thing. He mentions in his post that it's just a custom cut blank. So essentially $50 heat treated blank + $50 handle + questionable grind = $300. But he says he makes and "forges" 100% of the knife. Though in reality, I think it would be a stretch to think he's even improving the blank with his grinding (who knows if heat treat is ruined in the process).


----------



## spaceconvoy

tostadas said:


> But he says he makes and "forges" 100% of the knife.


----------



## WPerry

tostadas said:


> I found a pic of that guy's 60mm depth handle with a blade in it. Popped up on my reddit feed. Super machi gap.
> edit: I just noticed the black glove too, to suggest that he actually made some part of it.




Wow. Putting your maker's mark on the blade road. That's thinking ahead. 

I see he's decided to keep it concise with only the asterisk, though. Classy touch.


----------



## Corradobrit1

WPerry said:


> Wow. Putting your maker's mark on the blade road. That's thinking ahead.
> 
> I see he's decided to keep it concise with only the asterisk, though. Classy touch.


At least he's not plagiarizing some other makers logo/text this time around.


----------



## tostadas

Corradobrit1 said:


> At least he's not plagiarizing some other makers logo/text this time around.


Given every other aspect of the knifemaking he's taken credit for that he has no idea how to actually do himself, I wouldn't be surprised if he got the logo screened on by the guy selling counterfeit NFL t-shirts next to the gas station.


----------



## Greasylake

Corradobrit1 said:


> At least he's not plagiarizing some other makers logo/text this time around.


Well the asterisk is actually a thing from Kurt Vonnegut soooooooo









Vonnegut’s Asterisk


Kurt Vonnegut Jr. survived being a WWII POW (including being ensconced in the middle of the firebombing of Dresden) and used the experience to write one of the great time-travel stories of all time…




axelhow.com


----------



## Corradobrit1

Greasylake said:


> Well the asterisk is actually a thing from Kurt Vonnegut soooooooo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vonnegut’s Asterisk
> 
> 
> Kurt Vonnegut Jr. survived being a WWII POW (including being ensconced in the middle of the firebombing of Dresden) and used the experience to write one of the great time-travel stories of all time…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> axelhow.com


So, ZERO originality


----------



## juice

M1k3 said:


> I'll take 1 month, +/- 3 days.


BOOO! LIAR!!


----------



## Heckel7302

WPerry said:


> Wow. Putting your maker's mark on the blade road. That's thinking ahead.
> 
> I see he's decided to keep it concise with only the asterisk, though. Classy touch.


I called that guy out for putting the MM on the grind when he posted it on whatever social media. He was very defensive. Just could not understand why it was a terrible idea.


----------



## esoo

Easier to remove than Ryky's mark...


----------



## sansho

Greasylake said:


> Well the asterisk is actually a thing from Kurt Vonnegut soooooooo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vonnegut’s Asterisk
> 
> 
> Kurt Vonnegut Jr. survived being a WWII POW (including being ensconced in the middle of the firebombing of Dresden) and used the experience to write one of the great time-travel stories of all time…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> axelhow.com



haha. so the MM is actually a puckered rosebud. thanks for the entertaining Vonnegut trivia.


----------



## tostadas

Heckel7302 said:


> I called that guy out for putting the MM on the grind when he posted it on whatever social media. He was very defensive. Just could not understand why it was a terrible idea.


So he started off by saying he "made" these knives by himself 100%. 

It was then uncovered that he didnt make the handles. So he revised his threads saying that all the forging, etching and saya is done by him. Recently, he indicated in one of his sales threads on reddit r/chefknifeswap that he actually gets the blades waterjet cut because in his words, "I’m not a good enough steel worker to forge full shape yet" (meaning he also doesnt forge the steel, because honestly what kind of maker can forge a piece of steel but not know how to cut it). The heat treating is done by a third party. The etch pattern is now stolen from somewhere else.

I'm inclined to think he doesn't even grind the blades himself either. Someone asked about the stray scratch marks all over the grind on one of his petty knives. Typically a maker's grind marks, if not polished out, are either all vertical or horzontal. His were every which way. He responded that he used a random orbital sander! The knife for sale has since been modified with a dark etch to hide the terrible "grind/polish".

I think maybe knifemaking isn't this guy's calling.


----------



## Corradobrit1

tostadas said:


> So he started off by saying he "made" these knives by himself 100%.
> 
> It was then uncovered that he didnt make the handles. So he revised his threads saying that all the forging, etching and saya is done by him. Recently, he indicated in one of his sales threads on reddit r/chefknifeswap that he actually gets the blades waterjet cut because in his words, "I’m not a good enough steel worker to forge full shape yet" (meaning he also doesnt forge the steel, because honestly what kind of maker can forge a piece of steel but not know how to cut it). The heat treating is done by a third party. The etch pattern is now stolen from somewhere else.
> 
> I'm inclined to think he doesn't even grind the blades himself either. Someone asked about the stray scratch marks all over the grind on one of his petty knives. Typically a maker's grind marks, if not polished out, are either all vertical or horzontal. His were every which way. He responded that he used a random orbital sander! The knife for sale has since been modified with a dark etch to hide the terrible "grind/polish".
> 
> I think maybe knifemaking isn't this guy's calling.


I hope its not his day job


----------



## Rangen

tostadas said:


> I think maybe knifemaking isn't this guy's calling.



I think you are just prejudiced against knives made by pathological liars.


----------



## daveb

How long going to flog this horse?

Not that there's anything wrong with it...


----------



## M1k3

daveb said:


> How long going to flog this horse?
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with it...


Until morale improves?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

M1k3 said:


> Until morale improves?



S***! I bought a Yoshikane and so far my morale is jacked. Reckon I can't play no more folks.


----------



## esoo

daveb said:


> How long going to flog this horse?
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with it...



Until we find a new horse....


----------



## WPerry

daveb said:


> How long going to flog this horse?
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with it...



Yeah, but this is new info coming to light, so it's not a carcass that's been flogged to just this side of mince... it's like a beating a shiny, newly dead horse.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

WPerry said:


> Yeah, but this is new info coming to light, so it's not a carcass that's been flogged to just this side of mince... it's like a beating a shiny, newly dead horse.


----------



## NotAddictedYet

So, guess Anryu san's work is already up 60% post retirement, Should I invest now?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

NotAddictedYet said:


> So, guess Anryu san's work is already up 60% post retirement, Should I invest now?



Dude. That's 60% above *MSRP* for an *used and sharpened* multiple times knife, er, collectable. If you get one LNIB or BNIB or almost LBNIB and you might be looking at 70-80%.


Probably not on BST but ya know, think Reddit!


----------



## Chicagohawkie

Those anryu AS 300 sugi knives were on my to get list. Great value at under 300 bucks. Still have a 240 AS gyuto that smokes most in the under 250 catagory.


----------



## Vdark

Can I buy for $600?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Vdark said:


> Can I buy for $600?




Thief!


----------



## Jville

That dude can go kick rocks. “At least” $800 . Anryu are great knives, but nothing to get all cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs over. This newer trend of flipping Anruys is complete douchebagery. You have to be really newb to be falling for these.


----------



## tostadas

Is that how much they're actually going for?

edit: lol nvm, I forgot which thread this was. haha "AT LEAST" that's hilarious!


----------



## Chicagohawkie

tostadas said:


> Is that how much they're actually going for?


Nah, they’re 300 dollar knives.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

The best part is Anryu started retiring years ago. Is it his nephew that took over? At any rate, everything I've seen says you can't tell the difference between the two.


----------



## tostadas

M1k3 said:


> I'll take 1 month, +/- 3 days.


Just barely 2 weeks


----------



## Jville

tostadas said:


> Is that how much they're actually going for?
> 
> edit: lol nvm, I forgot which thread this was. haha "AT LEAST" that's hilarious!


Yeah for the most part it is not flying but you are seeing some people tack on extra and basically flipping them. It’s not really flying on here thank goodness.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Jville said:


> Yeah for the most part it is not flying but you are seeing some people tack on extra and basically flipping them. It’s not really flying on here thank goodness.



Well, I'm sure that OP will become a KKF community gem. I mean yeah, both of their two total posts were in a massively inflated BST post but, uh, well...


----------



## ethompson

I like that it is $880 "at least" here but $700 on CKTG


----------



## Chicagohawkie

ethompson said:


> I like that it is $880 "at least" here but $700 on CKTG


As soon as this hits 300, I’m buying it!


----------



## Jville

Chicagohawkie said:


> As soon as this hits 300, I’m buying it!


I’ll hit him up at $325. I’m in need of Suji and 300 mm is my preferred size.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

Jville said:


> I’ll hit him up at $325. I’m in need of Suji and 300 mm is my preferred size.


Ha Ha! It’s all yours.


----------



## Jville

Chicagohawkie said:


> Ha Ha! It’s all yours.


Ok thanks, I’ll wait until $305.


----------



## Jovidah

Better buy quick before the price goes up. 10 bucks off for cooks...
Maybe it was the knife he held when he heard Anthony Bourdain died?


----------



## Bico Doce

Jville said:


> That dude can go kick rocks. “At least” $800 . Anryu are great knives, but nothing to get all cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs over. This newer trend of flipping Anruys is complete douchebagery. You have to be really newb to be falling for these.


Sale pending


----------



## WiriWiri

Bico Doce said:


> Sale pending


----------



## daniel_il

HumbleHomeCook said:


> The best part is Anryu started retiring years ago. Is it his nephew that took over? At any rate, everything I've seen says you can't tell the difference between the two.



cant tell any difference...i got a few of them. ikeda is making the knives for years, they only changed the kanji last year.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

My guess is Anryu had nothing to do or very little with the AS line. They are takefu knives, so you never really knows who’s crafting them.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Vdark said:


> Can I buy for $600?





HumbleHomeCook said:


> Thief!



Please understand, that was my attempt at humor and in no way was I being serious.


----------



## yparker

I see no one is stoked about me posting the Anryu, well, I was told by a few people after posting my collection on insta that they were going for around that price and I really could use the money right now. Sorry to anyone I somehow offended.


----------



## yparker

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Dude. That's 60% above *MSRP* for an *used and sharpened* multiple times knife, er, collectable. If you get one LNIB or BNIB or almost LBNIB and you might be looking at 70-80%.
> 
> 
> Probably not on BST but ya know, think Reddit!



Yep i realize I irritated some people for trying here, sorry if this isn't the community for this. However my post was completely honest and has been sharpened only once and used less than 10x total, likely less than 6x. No lying involved here.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

yparker said:


> Yep i realize I irritated some people for trying here, sorry if this isn't the community for this. However my post was completely honest and has been sharpened only once and used less than 10x total, likely less than 6x. No lying involved here.



I never said you were dishonest.


----------



## bahamaroot

Wow, $800 for a used Anyru. My 300mm mono W#2 Konosuke should be worth a grand or more then!


----------



## yparker

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I never said you were dishonest.


Sorry I read your comment as "sharpened multiple times" 

Anyways as I just said on my post it's cool that you all have such a tight knit community of knife lovers and I wish you all the best


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

yparker said:


> Sorry I read your comment as "sharpened multiple times"
> 
> Anyways as I just said on my post it's cool that you all have such a tight knit community of knife lovers and I wish you all the best



I grant you that I could've arranged that better.

This is a tight community and this is a thread for us to carry on about what we perceive as crazy prices and at times, outright dishonesty. Such comments should never happen in the actual sale thread and sellers should be free to list anything they want for whatever price they choose. If someone pays for it, then so be it for all involved.

For me, right or wrong, the Anryu craze just strikes a nerve. Don't get me wrong, I still think that was an insane price and a cash-grab, but there's no rules against either.

I wouldn't say you should create a new profile as you mentioned in another post. Just hang around, engage, and see if the community is a good fit.

I hope whatever situation you're in sorts itself out and gets better soon.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

Why anyone would get worked up about a laser kanjied knife from Takefu is beyond me…… Hope both parties in this deal are satisfied.


----------



## daveb

yparker said:


> Anyways as I just said on my post it's cool that you all have such a tight knit community of knife lovers and I wish you all the best



Sometimes it's like an old boys club - and sometimes it's just the guys bitching in their rockers. And this thread is the porch


----------



## Jville

yparker said:


> Yep i realize I irritated some people for trying here, sorry if this isn't the community for this. However my post was completely honest and has been sharpened only once and used less than 10x total, likely less than 6x. No lying involved here.


Hey, I can totally respect that you actually put the crazy markup on your thread. Even if the price is ridiculous there is an honesty and a genuineness about your approach that I can definitely respect. What I mean is I believe, perhaps, you got some kind of bad advice about jacking up the anryu, which I have seen some of lately. True knife nuts will know better, but there will be sone fooled by it. It’s pretty lame thing in general to do. But not only did you put on the thread your markup, but you also came on here and faced everyone. You should stick around you might actually like the community and might learn a little something. I don’t mean this in a condescending way. I’m being honest. Most people that are doing stuff stench of douche and know how devious they are being. They hide behind forum rules and would run and hide from critics instead of coming in here and facing people. I have a feeling you are not a bad dude, but I could be wrong, wouldn’t be the first time.


----------



## yparker

Jville said:


> Hey, I can totally respect that you actually put the crazy markup on your thread. Even if the price is ridiculous there is an honesty and a genuineness about your approach that I can definitely respect. What I mean is I believe, perhaps, you got some kind of bad advice about jacking up the anryu, which I have seen some of lately. True knife nuts will know better, but there will be sone fooled by it. It’s pretty lame thing in general to do. But not only did you put on the thread your markup, but you also came on here and faced everyone. You should stick around you might actually like the community and might learn a little something. I don’t mean this in a condescending way. I’m being honest. Most people that are doing stuff stench of douche and know how devious they are being. They hide behind forum rules and would run and hide from critics instead of coming in here and facing people. I have a feeling you are not a bad dude, but I could be wrong, wouldn’t be the first time.


You're wrong, I'm horrible. Hahaha I'm kidding. Thanks for the nice words for real!! I'm a knife nut just like you all, I just had received inflated information on the Anryu situation I suppose. Was told gyuto's were going for $750 so I figured a big ol' Suji would pull $800 no problem. Oh well, I inadvertently found a cool place I hadn't heard of before. It's also rad that you guys have a thread like this to watch out for each other


----------



## M1k3

I definitely agree about the price.

I also think I like @yparker, he explained himself. And didn't have some crazy excuses. And didn't get all angry and defensive.


----------



## tostadas

yparker said:


> You're wrong, I'm horrible. Hahaha I'm kidding. Thanks for the nice words for real!! I'm a knife nut just like you all, I just had received inflated information on the Anryu situation I suppose. Was told gyuto's were going for $750 so I figured a big ol' Suji would pull $800 no problem. Oh well, I inadvertently found a cool place I hadn't heard of before. It's also rad that you guys have a thread like this to watch out for each other


You sound like a cool guy who would fit in well. It's just that we've had quite a few folks as of late who show up with a supporting membership just to try and flip stuff for outrageous prices.


----------



## WildBoar

He seems nice. The FS post is a byproduct of being able to bypass the 50 post rule by donating to the forum. A little time spent knocking around in the forums would have given yparker a better feel for the forum. Hopefully he sticks around a while and enjoys himself.


----------



## yparker

WildBoar said:


> He seems nice. The FS post is a byproduct of being able to bypass the 50 post rule by donating to the forum. A little time spent knocking around in the forums would have given yparker a better feel for the forum. Hopefully he sticks around a while and enjoys himself.


I intend to  

Have a cool collection to share later. I mostly buy from up and coming makers around the globe, that Anryu is my only knife from Japan remaining actually


----------



## tostadas

yparker said:


> I intend to
> 
> Have a cool collection to share later. I mostly buy from up and coming makers around the globe, that Anryu is my only knife from Japan remaining actually


Welcome! You made a memorable entrance for yourself


----------



## soigne_west

Horrible people take note.


----------



## Jville

Oh crap! Did somebody actually buy that knife for $800???


----------



## Corradobrit1

tostadas said:


> Welcome! You made a memorable entrance for yourself


I will buy this


----------



## yparker

Corradobrit1 said:


> I will buy this


Prove it


----------



## yparker

Jville said:


> Oh crap! Did somebody actually buy that knife for $800???


No lol, someone acted like they were going to, but I went into their post history and they frequented this exact thread (which is how I found it), and had even said that they don't think people should be allowed to buy that membership to post on BST. (I would have had better chances if I was around beforehand so maybe he's right anyways) 

so I'm 95% sure he was messing with me. After all the reactions I was getting I decided just to leave it alone and mark it closed


----------



## refcast

Just as an aside. . . there was a knife made by shiro kamo's dad I saw awhile ago. . . and it was only $170. Which is to say, there are older forgotten blacksmiths and obscure blacksmiths, and popular ones are either the more prolific or advertised ones.


----------



## Jville

yparker said:


> No lol, someone acted like they were going to, but I went into their post history and they frequented this exact thread (which is how I found it), and had even said that they don't think people should be allowed to buy that membership to post on BST. (I would have had better chances if I was around beforehand so maybe he's right anyways)
> 
> so I'm 95% sure he was messing with me. After all the reactions I was getting I decided just to leave it alone and mark it closed


Also, it really is like a $300 knife, so your markup is closer to about 166 percent or 2.666 times.


----------



## yparker

Jville said:


> Also, it really is like a $300 knife, so your markup is closer to about 166 percent or 2.666 times.


Dunno why everyone keeps saying it's $300, I'm sure it was before Inflation and supply chain issues, but it's a $460 + tax price tag, even if it was available which it ain't Katsushige Anryu Blue Super Sujihiki Japanese Knife 300mm Shitan Handle

But sorry lol not trying to start this again. I'm just explaining


----------



## Corradobrit1

Buy here for $800 or from South Africa for $1235. Both prices be crazy but as with anything, prices are market driven and the market speaks. Probably better off listing on Ebay as there seem to be some deep pocketed buyers there. 






KATSUSHIGE ANRYU 3 LAYER CLADDING BLUE SUPER CORE HAMMERD JAPANESE CHEF'S SUJIHIKI-SLICER KNIFE 300MM | WantItAll


Knife making is in Anryu san's blood. His family started as knives makers in the early 1870's. He started apprenticing as a knife maker under his father, Katsutoshi Anryu, after graduating high school in 1959. He is a fourth generation knife maker an




www.wantitall.co.za


----------



## yparker

Corradobrit1 said:


> Buy here for $800 or from South Africa for $1235. Both prices be crazy but as with anything, prices are market driven and the market speaks. Probably better off listing on Ebay as there seem to be some deep pocketed buyers there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KATSUSHIGE ANRYU 3 LAYER CLADDING BLUE SUPER CORE HAMMERD JAPANESE CHEF'S SUJIHIKI-SLICER KNIFE 300MM | WantItAll
> 
> 
> Knife making is in Anryu san's blood. His family started as knives makers in the early 1870's. He started apprenticing as a knife maker under his father, Katsutoshi Anryu, after graduating high school in 1959. He is a fourth generation knife maker an
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wantitall.co.za


Wowwww haha that's wild


----------



## daveb

ISO New Horse. Prefer DIB.


----------



## M1k3

daveb said:


> ISO New Horse. Prefer DIB.


How about Schrodinger's Horse?


----------



## McMan

M1k3 said:


> How about Schrodinger's Horse?


The beating may or may not have killed that horse.


----------



## M1k3

McMan said:


> The beating may or may not have killed that horse.


If it's even a new one. Could be alive. Have to open the box first. Just don't mix Schrodinger's box up with Pandora's.


----------



## bahamaroot

yparker said:


> Dunno why everyone keeps saying it's $300, I'm sure it was before Inflation and supply chain issues, but it's a $460 + tax price tag, even if it was available which it ain't Katsushige Anryu Blue Super Sujihiki Japanese Knife 300mm Shitan Handle
> 
> But sorry lol not trying to start this again. I'm just explaining


Japanny is one of the most overpriced sites out there.


----------



## btbyrd

I got mine there before their prices went up like 55%. Their prices weren't always so bad. But they were the only one who jacked the prices on Anryu's AS through the roof like that. Almost nobody else sold the 300 suji though.


----------



## yparker

.


----------



## btbyrd

Oh no! Definitely worth more than that! I'd buy a second for $180!!!

Edit: Oh. $810! Good for you! And good to know for myself!


----------



## yparker

btbyrd said:


> Oh no! Definitely worth more than that! I'd buy a second for $180!!!
> 
> Edit: Oh. $810! Good for you! And good to know for myself!


 Gave me a good chuckle lol. I'd buy another for $180 also!


----------



## daniel_il




----------



## yparker

.


----------



## daniel_il

ok its not my business but good for you

anyway as a collector and forum member i don't appreciate flipping but its a free country ..


----------



## tcmx3

daniel_il said:


> ok its not my business but good for you
> 
> anyway as a collector and forum member i don't appreciate flipping but its a free country ..



this is definitely going the way of "I got what I asked for so I was right all along"


----------



## yparker

.


----------



## tostadas

yparker said:


> Ya'll are kinda toxic if I'm being honest. If I were a member of the community for a while before listing this I'm sure you would have had very different reactions. If you are so against people paying a fee to list things, ask the website owners to change that.
> 
> I donated $5-6 (whatever it was) to post here and kinda just get **** on. It would be cool if peoples monthly fees were going towards more education rather than gatekeeping.


We've had long discussions about this. It's not gonna happen. 

Also, if you read through this thread, most of those folks who get called out are those that also decide pay whatever few bucks to quickly bypass the usual minimum posting requirements. Using that as a justification doesn't sit well with me personally.


----------



## Mlan

The vast majority of people here aren’t here to make money off of the knives they have. They are here to share their experiences with different knives, makers, or other things. I think that’s why when someone comes here to do the opposite it gets such a big backlash. It’s just not what this forum is about. In my opinion flipping isn’t a bad thing to do, this just clearly isn’t the space to do it.


----------



## Bico Doce

There are a lot of prominent members who don’t sell here because they don’t want to deal with being called out for pricing their knives as they see fit.

There are some who are very vocal about their opinions and they tend to be in the no flipping camp. The ones who feel differently are quiet about it. So it is hard to know what the general consensus is, or if there is even one here on the forum.

My point is there are a lot of different people and views here.

@yparker your limited experience so far has skewed your perception of KKF. I will admit you seem like a decent guy and you’ve had a tough go here. Maybe give this place another shot, try engaging on different forum here (non BST related) and I think you find some pretty cool people.

While I don’t like seeing knives serve as a source of income on the secondary market, if me putting food on the table was dependent on selling my knives you better believe they would be priced as high as possible.


----------



## yparker

Mlan said:


> The vast majority of people here aren’t here to make money off of the knives they have. They are here to share their experiences with different knives, makers, or other things. I think that’s why when someone comes here to do the opposite it gets such a big backlash. It’s just not what this forum is about. In my opinion flipping isn’t a bad thing to do, this just clearly isn’t the space to do it.


Makes perfect sense


----------



## tcmx3

Bico Doce said:


> There are a lot of prominent members who don’t sell here because they don’t want to deal with being called out for pricing their knives as they see fit.



that's the tradeoff you make.

if you act in public, people are free to comment on your actions. they may not have positive things to say; afterall we owe each other civility, not affirmation.

in general, this thread exists to discourage behavior that the community doesn't like. this place has a very limited sense of community but there are two places where it actually shows up; charity and dunking on flippers.


----------



## ethompson

希少 包丁 青本焼 和牛刀 240mm - ヤフオク!


写真が下手なため伝わりずらいかと思いますが、裏は全体的に鋼組織の模様が浮き出ています。表は所々といった状態です。日本未発売の商品と思われます。海外より購入しました。青本焼　和牛刀　240mmです。製造は日本、燕三条。鍛冶はふせられています。鏡面ではありません。個人的なコレクションですので、完璧を求める方、神経質な方はご遠慮ください。写真をよくご確認の上、nc.nrにてお願い致します。かなりの希少品のため、交換などもできません。お探しの方、いかがでしょうか？包丁・ナイフ三徳刺身柳刃重房玄海正国池田刃物池田正行



page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp





In case anyone’s primary complaint about Kaeru honyaki was that they are too cheap, there is always this… got sent this by another member today for a good laugh


----------



## Corradobrit1

ethompson said:


> 希少 包丁 青本焼 和牛刀 240mm - ヤフオク!
> 
> 
> 写真が下手なため伝わりずらいかと思いますが、裏は全体的に鋼組織の模様が浮き出ています。表は所々といった状態です。日本未発売の商品と思われます。海外より購入しました。青本焼　和牛刀　240mmです。製造は日本、燕三条。鍛冶はふせられています。鏡面ではありません。個人的なコレクションですので、完璧を求める方、神経質な方はご遠慮ください。写真をよくご確認の上、nc.nrにてお願い致します。かなりの希少品のため、交換などもできません。お探しの方、いかがでしょうか？包丁・ナイフ三徳刺身柳刃重房玄海正国池田刃物池田正行
> 
> 
> 
> page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In case anyone’s primary complaint about Kaeru honyaki was that they are too cheap, there is always this… got sent this by another member today for a good laugh


Buy-it-Now price for a bargain $5270.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

1 as always, just don’t buy it!


----------



## cooktocut

Hah! A 240 chef knife labeled as a wagyu meat sword


----------



## tostadas

He's back!


----------



## cheflife15

tostadas said:


> He's back!



Can I get a quick summary of who this is?


----------



## stringer

cheflife15 said:


> Can I get a quick summary of who this is?


You must be new to Flipper Alert. Please pop your popcorn, buckle up and keep all hands and feet inside the vehicle.

Just back this thread up a couple pages.

Post in thread 'Flipper alert' Flipper alert


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

cheflife15 said:


> Can I get a quick summary of who this is?



He was on here as Kilgoretrout. Probably can go back to about page 50 of this thread for the info. Basically, claiming he made stuff that he clearly bought from others.


----------



## FishmanDE

tostadas said:


> He's back!



He definitely made that saya. Good god man


----------



## M1k3

FishmanDE said:


> He definitely made that saya. Good god man


I'm not so sure. Seems like someone made it for a knife with a much larger handle?


----------



## Corradobrit1

FishmanDE said:


> He definitely made that saya. Good god man


And still plagiarising other markers mottos


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

tostadas said:


> He's back!





_"Payment preferred via PayPal F&F (absolutely no written comments)

I will however send a photo front and back of my license with the knife in the picture before any money is exchanged if the buyer would like that. I’m not out to scam anyone and will do whatever it takes in order for you to feel comfortable. Within reason. I know cooks and their dirty minds."_


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Corradobrit1 said:


> And still plagiarising other markers mottos



Looks like he's still buying and reselling those Vietnamese handles.


----------



## stringer

HumbleHomeCook said:


> _"Payment preferred via PayPal F&F (absolutely no written comments)
> 
> I will however send a photo front and back of my license with the knife in the picture before any money is exchanged if the buyer would like that. I’m not out to scam anyone and will do whatever it takes in order for you to feel comfortable. Within reason. I know cooks and their dirty minds."_


----------



## esoo

stringer said:


> View attachment 182863



Pulls out Ontario license - that's really well done.


----------



## stringer

esoo said:


> Pulls out Ontario license - that's really well done.


Lucky quick Google image search


----------



## tostadas

FishmanDE said:


> He definitely made that saya. Good god man





M1k3 said:


> I'm not so sure. Seems like someone made it for a knife with a much larger handle?


I actually do think he probably made the sayas because the craftsmanship does not match the blade or handle. 

But there's no way he does anything close to actual forging. Convenient that he is unable to have any photos of anything prior to final knife shape. I recall he claimed at one point that he forged the steel himself, then sent it out to get cut with water jet. And then heat treated elsewhere. Sounds like exactly what someone that makes knives would do... If they didn't actually make the knives.


----------



## FishmanDE

M1k3 said:


> I'm not so sure. Seems like someone made it for a knife with a much larger handle? View attachment 182861


That previous knife didn’t have a handle, it had a gdamn footdle


----------



## Jville

Is it me? or perhaps it’s the pics? But the ferule on that handle looks hideous.


----------



## tostadas

Jville said:


> Is it me? or perhaps it’s the pics? But the ferule on that handle looks hideous.


It's probably you, the pics, and also the ferrule.


----------



## tostadas

I'm glad some new drama has been stirred up. I don't care who's right, but elevated blood pressures, spicy tempers, and deceit.


----------



## jwthaparc

New drama? Where?


----------



## Corradobrit1

jwthaparc said:


> New drama? Where?


Drama? What drama?


----------



## BillHanna

Yeah, Toasty. What’s the 411, hon?


----------



## FishmanDE

Spill that tea gurl


----------



## Corradobrit1

BillHanna said:


> Yeah, Toasty. What’s the 411, hon?


Something about an unhygienic pizza joint, selling dodgy lobsters. Possibly in the Bay Area


----------



## tostadas

Corradobrit1 said:


> Something about an unhygienic pizza joint, selling dodgy lobsters. Possibly in the Bay Area


Possibly. Seems like the threads have been scrubbed already


----------



## BillHanna

Yeah. The last name only shows up in the case of the redirected knife.


----------



## Heckel7302

tostadas said:


> Possibly. Seems like the threads have been scrubbed already


Seems he hasn’t been banned again, but all the WTS posts he put up in the last week or so have disappeared


----------



## Hockey3081

Heckel7302 said:


> Seems he hasn’t been banned again, but all the WTS posts he put up in the last week or so have disappeared



Maybe he’s going on another camping trip.


Also for anyone who missed it, here is his explanation…


----------



## WPerry

Am I reading this right? 

"I'm selling them for him, but only because I didn't know that he was a scumbag. Oh, and he took pics of these because he had them at the time, because he wanted first crack at the knives that I'm selling." 

That is one convoluted ******* excuse.


----------



## Gregmega

That whole WTT thread was hot garbage from the get-go. If you’re new to this, here’s your 101 course for a hustle- and it goes like this: Here’s my amazing bait knife, hit me with some trades of ‘like value’ though I’m conveniently unaware & unwilling to proclaim any approximate value- oh & btw its got shaky provenance; and finally let’s bathe this oddity in an even weirder cover story. Let’s hope to then start a frenzy in the PM’s & see how many I can hook, All tied up with a a fkn bow and sweet authentic sounding story. 

Listen, the red flags are all here- and in the worst case scenario- this followed by a sham tracking number to a non-existent address near your home (it was a thing here a number of years ago, not saying it was this guy, but should be reminded every now and again).


----------



## tostadas

Makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Gregmega said:


> That whole WTT thread was hot garbage from the get-go. If you’re new to this, here’s your 101 course for a hustle- and it goes like this: Here’s my amazing bait knife, hit me with some trades of ‘like value’ though I’m conveniently unaware & unwilling to proclaim any approximate value- oh & btw its got shaky provenance; and finally let’s bathe this oddity in an even weirder cover story. Let’s hope to then start a frenzy in the PM’s & see how many I can hook, All tied up with a a fkn bow and sweet authentic sounding story.
> 
> Listen, the red flags are all here- and in the worst case scenario- this followed by a sham tracking number to a non-existent address near your home (it was a thing here a number of years ago, not saying it was this guy, but should be reminded every now and again).


The package redirection mid transit ploy is another classic scammer MO.


----------



## NotAddictedYet

Gregmega said:


> That whole WTT thread was hot garbage from the get-go. If you’re new to this, here’s your 101 course for a hustle- and it goes like this: Here’s my amazing bait knife, hit me with some trades of ‘like value’ though I’m conveniently unaware & unwilling to proclaim any approximate value- oh & btw its got shaky provenance; and finally let’s bathe this oddity in an even weirder cover story. Let’s hope to then start a frenzy in the PM’s & see how many I can hook, All tied up with a a fkn bow and sweet authentic sounding story.
> 
> Listen, the red flags are all here- and in the worst case scenario- this followed by a sham tracking number to a non-existent address near your home (it was a thing here a number of years ago, not saying it was this guy, but should be reminded every now and again).


 I have an inkling which WTT thread it was, but can't seem to find it. Did it get scrubbed?


----------



## jedy617

Not sure where else to put this but his name appeared on this thread and thought it was funny....the famous kligore calling me out for selling my isasmedjan as a gyuto on reddit when its not Japanese LOL. Heard his name as a legend of the form so very humbled to have witnessed his presence first hand. I wonder if anything less than tamahagane forged by a licensed swordsmith is not japanese....wait till he hears about swedish steel lol


----------



## jedy617

ian said:


> This Kilgore guy seems more aggressive than passive aggressive. To me, they vibe different kinds of a**hole. And Sparten wouldn’t be caught dead selling his “own” work. That’s beneath him as a collector.


I was just a victim of kligore aggression, it's brutal...


----------



## jwthaparc

jedy617 said:


> Not sure where else to put this but his name appeared on this thread and thought it was funny....the famous kligore calling me out for selling my isasmedjan as a gyuto on reddit when its not Japanese LOL. Heard his name as a legend of the form so very humbled to have witnessed his presence first hand. I wonder if anything less than tamahagane forged by a licensed swordsmith is not japanese....wait till he hears about swedish steel lol
> 
> View attachment 211047


Jesus christ. 

Does this guy think he's actually making a good point? I mean what should you call it? Sweedyuto?


----------



## jedy617

jwthaparc said:


> Jesus christ.
> 
> Does this guy think he's actually making a good point? I mean what should you call it? Sweedyuto?


To him, if it was anything less than forged steel with iron sands from the beaches of japan, made by master swordsmiths, it could probably not be japanese enough to be a gyuto


----------



## Corradobrit1

jedy617 said:


> To him, if it was anything less than forged steel with iron sands from the beaches of japan, made by master swordsmiths, it could probably not be japanese enough to be a gyuto


Would love to hear his thoughts on Togo Reigo steel. Or Swedish steel for that matter used by Shigefusa. Clearly he has no understanding of the meaning gyuto. That it is a profile not a brand or symbol of cultural identity. Wish he put more efforts into ensuring his own manufacture met exacting standards, rather than pontificate.


----------



## tostadas

jedy617 said:


> Not sure where else to put this but his name appeared on this thread and thought it was funny....the famous kligore calling me out for selling my isasmedjan as a gyuto on reddit when its not Japanese LOL. Heard his name as a legend of the form so very humbled to have witnessed his presence first hand. I wonder if anything less than tamahagane forged by a licensed swordsmith is not japanese....wait till he hears about swedish steel lol
> 
> View attachment 211047


You shoulda just told him you made it yourself. I'm sure he'd understand it better that way


----------



## jwthaparc

After going back and reading the thread. Does anyone have a link to the famous kilgore woodworking post? Ive got to see it.


----------



## tostadas

jwthaparc said:


> After going back and reading the thread. Does anyone have a link to the famous kilgore woodworking post? Ive got to see it.








Flipper alert


The Kilgoretrout guy is flipping handles like he made them and admitted it? Exactly. As stated by Mr 🐟 "I dont know if This is kosher(the mods are very nice but also seem particular about the rules) but I just made some 100% horn handles that came out really nice so I’m making more that should...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









WTS - Rosewood and water buffalo horn Wa handle


Up for sale is a wa handle I finished but haven’t found a project for yet. Rosewood burl with a blonde horn spacer and a black horn ferrule. finished with Tung oil and polished to a high sheen and waxed with a 50/50 mixture of bees wax and mineral oil. I will ship it with ~30 grams of pure bees...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





He also had a reddit post where he made a saya where the heel of the blade protruded out the back. But I think he deleted it.


----------



## jwthaparc

tostadas said:


> Flipper alert
> 
> 
> The Kilgoretrout guy is flipping handles like he made them and admitted it? Exactly. As stated by Mr 🐟 "I dont know if This is kosher(the mods are very nice but also seem particular about the rules) but I just made some 100% horn handles that came out really nice so I’m making more that should...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WTS - Rosewood and water buffalo horn Wa handle
> 
> 
> Up for sale is a wa handle I finished but haven’t found a project for yet. Rosewood burl with a blonde horn spacer and a black horn ferrule. finished with Tung oil and polished to a high sheen and waxed with a 50/50 mixture of bees wax and mineral oil. I will ship it with ~30 grams of pure bees...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He also had a reddit post where he made a saya where the heel of the blade protruded out the back. But I think he deleted it.


Yeah the r/woodworking ones were what i was thinking about. It sounded like some stuff happened there.

Edit. Is it me or can i see some grind marks on that spacer?


----------



## superworrier

tostadas said:


> You shoulda just told him you made it yourself. I'm sure he'd understand it better that way


----------



## tostadas

jwthaparc said:


> Yeah the r/woodworking ones were what i was thinking about. It sounded like some stuff happened there.
> 
> Edit. Is it me or can i see some grind marks on that spacer?


I think those were probably also deleted. But I recall a thread of him asking basically "how do I make this hole", or how to make a tang hole in a handle. Right around the same time he was trying to pass off random wa handles as his own work. I gotta remember to screenshot these next time I see em.


----------



## Jovidah

jedy617 said:


> Not sure where else to put this but his name appeared on this thread and thought it was funny....the famous kligore calling me out for selling my isasmedjan as a gyuto on reddit when its not Japanese LOL. Heard his name as a legend of the form so very humbled to have witnessed his presence first hand. I wonder if anything less than tamahagane forged by a licensed swordsmith is not japanese....wait till he hears about swedish steel lol
> 
> View attachment 211047


CuLtUrAl ApProPrIaTiOn!!!111
But then why isn't he crying about how the Japanese ripped off the French chef's knife... or that katsu is just a damn schnitzel, or that tempura is just battered fried fish,


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Jovidah said:


> CuLtUrAl ApProPrIaTiOn!!!111
> But then why isn't he crying about how the Japanese ripped off the French chef's knife... or that katsu is just a damn schnitzel, or that tempura is just battered fried fish,



What's better is him then calling "his own" knife a gyuto.


----------



## superworrier

Jovidah said:


> CuLtUrAl ApProPrIaTiOn!!!111
> But then why isn't he crying about how the Japanese ripped off the French chef's knife... or that katsu is just a damn schnitzel, or that tempura is just battered fried fish,


Some classmate complained about white people making ramen, not knowing it was originally Chinese, and literally became appropriated (which is a good thing given the end result).


----------



## superworrier

HumbleHomeCook said:


> What's better is him then calling "his own" knife a gyuto.


It's some serious levels of insanity. If it wasn't 52100 I would joke that maybe he bought a Japanese blank


----------



## jedy617

He couldn't take all the backlash on his comment so he deleted his comment and ran off. Seems to happen on all his posts lol


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

superworrier said:


> It's some serious levels of insanity. If it wasn't 52100 I would joke that maybe he bought a Japanese blank



I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if someone else made the blank though.

He's sure proud of the left side of the thing.


----------



## jwthaparc

I will give him this. I actually like this lamp he made. 

Provided he actually made it.


----------



## tostadas

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if someone else made the blank though.
> 
> He's sure proud of the left side of the thing.


I tried getting a straight answer at one point, but nothing he says really comes together logically

He hand forged them himself (and hand laminated)
He does not own forging equipment, so he found a place that let him do it
He has them cut via waterjet
Dont remember if he says he hardens/quenches on his own
Peters does the heat treatment
My personal guess is that he buys blanks in bulk. There a bunch of places that sell steel custom cut to whatever shape you want. Then he scuffs em up trying to grind it. Realizes that the grind is super uneven, so tries to hide it with a "dark etch." Tries to attach a handle he spec'd out that doesnt fit. Lists em on reddit saying it's the best thing ever. People start asking questions, he tries to make up more stories that make even less sense, then gives up and deletes the post.


----------



## jwthaparc

tostadas said:


> I tried getting a straight answer at one point, but nothing he says really comes together logically
> 
> He hand forged them himself (and hand laminated)
> He does not own forging equipment, so he found a place that let him do it
> He has them cut via waterjet
> Dont remember if he says he hardens/quenches on his own
> Peters does the heat treatment
> My personal guess is that he buys blanks in bulk. There a bunch of places that sell steel custom cut to whatever shape you want. Then he scuffs em up trying to grind it. Realizes that the grind is super uneven, so tries to hide it with a "dark etch." Tries to attach a handle he spec'd out that doesnt fit. Lists em on reddit saying it's the best thing ever. People start asking questions, he tries to make up more stories that make even less sense, then gives up and deletes the post.


Yeah. Forging and waterjet cutting doesnt reallt ad up.


----------



## superworrier

jwthaparc said:


> Yeah. Forging and waterjet cutting doesnt reallt ad up.


Idk... I'm no expert but forged knives are often cut with those giant shears after being forged to shape. Using a waterjet doesn't seem too different. (especially when your forging skills are low) See 2:15 here


----------



## jedy617

jwthaparc said:


> I will give him this. I actually like this lamp he made.
> 
> Provided he actually made it. View attachment 211464


that painting/picture/whatever it is is kinda creepy


----------



## jwthaparc

superworrier said:


> Idk... I'm no expert but forged knives are often cut with those giant shears after being forged to shape. Using a waterjet doesn't seem too different. (especially when your forging skills are low) See 2:15 here



Yeah, that or grinding. But to me waterjet cutting is a bit different.


----------



## Hockey3081

jwthaparc said:


> I will give him this. I actually like this lamp he made.
> 
> Provided he actually made it. View attachment 211464



$1000 says he didn’t make it.


----------



## Jovidah

Ryusen also does forging first and then stamping, so I wouldn't necessarily call male bovine manure on waterjet after forging:
 (04:20)


----------



## MowgFace

lol looks like I’m not removing enough burr.


----------



## tostadas

Jovidah said:


> Ryusen also does forging first and then stamping, so I wouldn't necessarily call male bovine manure on waterjet after forging:
> (04:20)



Good point. I'd normally give the benefit of the doubt. But in the case of a guy that has been caught in string of lies or at the very least greatly stretch the truth consistently, I think the probability of him actually making the blade himself is low.


----------



## jwthaparc

Jovidah said:


> Ryusen also does forging first and then stamping, so I wouldn't necessarily call male bovine manure on waterjet after forging:
> (04:20)



Im not saying its impossible to waterjet it. 

Im saying its not common, and i dont believe him. And unless hes producing a large amount of knives that need to be exactly the same it doesnt make sense to do it. Just forging then grinding seems much more practical.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

jwthaparc said:


> Im not saying its impossible to waterjet it.
> 
> Im saying its not common, and i dont believe him. And unless hes producing a large amount of knives that need to be exactly the same it doesnt make sense to do it. Just forging then grinding seems much more practical.



Yeah, outsourcing water jet cutting on a small scale is pretty questionable.


----------



## ian

Idk why that part's questionable. I mean, probably the guy has lots of money and is just doing this for kicks. He forges his blanks, which aren't done perfectly, so then he gets them cut by some waterjet service. Not the most efficient way to do things, but the waterjetting would save you grinding time if you're terrible at forging.

Or maybe he doesn't forge them, and just buys waterjet cut blanks.

Or maybe he doesn't actually make knives, he just is really good at photoshop.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

ian said:


> Idk why that part's questionable. I mean, probably the guy has lots of money and is just doing this for kicks. He forges his blanks, which aren't done perfectly, so then he gets them cut by some waterjet service. Not the most efficient way to do things, but the waterjetting would save you grinding time if you're terrible at forging.
> 
> Or maybe he doesn't forge them, and just buys waterjet cut blanks.
> 
> Or maybe he doesn't actually make knives, he just is really good at photoshop.



My thought was on the premise of him forging and water jetting and on small volume. Oh and on his reputation.


----------



## jwthaparc

HumbleHomeCook said:


> My thought was on the premise of him forging and water jetting and on small volume. Oh and on his reputation.


Yeah pretty much. 

And the amount of time profiling takes when grinding is basically nothing, compared to other parts of making a knife. And certainly less time than having to send them to someone else to do. Especially considering its not some massive operation. 

And again. Everything else points to it bein ********. Im saying this all together isnt practical. And i dont believe him. 

If he said, hes getting waterjet cut blanks sent to them, that could make sense. If thats the case theyre lying about forging the knives, and its stock removal. 

Or theyre just not making them at all. 

It just would not make sense for it to get done on a small scale in that way.


----------



## tostadas

Maybe we can simply ask him which things he's lying about and which things are true. Would save us a lot of time, but then there'd be nothing to debate


----------



## jwthaparc

Someone should bite the bullet and buy one to do a passaround.


----------



## tostadas

jwthaparc said:


> Someone should bite the bullet and buy one to do a passaround.


Don't forget to buy the matching saya


----------



## superworrier

It doesn’t seem practical to water jet it. In this case, maybe that makes it more likely


----------



## jwthaparc

superworrier said:


> It doesn’t seem practical to water jet it. In this case, maybe that makes it more likely


That its not the best way to go about it, makes it more likely because of who it is? Lol


----------



## M1k3

We're talking about a "maker" who thinks putting his mark on the bevel is a good idea. More than once. Like it's his trademark.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

M1k3 said:


> We're talking about a "maker" who thinks putting his mark on the bevel is a good idea. More than once. Like it's his trademark.



It's probably faster. I mean he's busy making handles and sayas and lamps and money off of the less discerning...


----------



## WPerry

M1k3 said:


> We're talking about a "maker" who thinks putting his mark on the bevel is a good idea. More than once. Like it's his trademark.



I'd forgotten about this hilarious nugget from the first time around. Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## sansho

people who shame flipper-shamers are hilarious

i'd put that in unpopular opinions, but i think it's probably a popular opinion around here thankfully


----------



## Bico Doce

sansho said:


> people who shame flipper-shamers are hilarious
> 
> i'd put that in unpopular opinions, but i think it's probably a popular opinion around here thankfully


So what you're saying is it's a shame when shamers are shamed for shaming flippers?


----------



## stringer

Bico Doce said:


> So what you're saying is it's a shame when shamers are shamed for shaming flippers?


How many flippers would a flipper shamer shame if a flipper shamer was shamed for shaming flippers?

Why a flipper shamer would shame as many flippers as the flipper shamer found despite the flipper shamer shamer crowd.


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## Bico Doce

stringer said:


> How many flippers would a flipper shamer shame if a flipper shamer was shamed for shaming flippers?
> 
> Why a flipper shamer would shame as many flippers as the flipper shamer found despite the flipper shamer


You took it to the next level right here


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## WPerry

Bico Doce said:


> You took it to the next level right here


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