# No such thing as a "Cow Sword"



## KenHash (Feb 11, 2021)

In the the late 1800s, Japan underwent the Meiji Restoration. A civil war was fought and Rule was changed from the Tokugawa Shogunate to the Imperial Rule with the Emperor as head. This period is when Japan changed from a Feudal country to an industrialized one and a mass effort to "catch up" with the West was carried out through students studying abroad as well as experts in various fields invited to Japan. In addition to the various industrial and infrastructure changes came western cultural imports such as foods and cuisines. And along with that came the tools to make them. While meat had been used in Japanese cuisine to a very limited extent, western dishes called for the use of the Chef's Knife. The personal Chef for Emperor Meiji trained in Paris.

The western Chef's knife was, and is, called a Yo-Bouchou. 洋　包丁　Literally, "Western Cooking Knife". It also became known as a Gyu-Tou 牛刀 shortened from 牛肉　包丁　Gyuniku Bouchou - Literally "Beef Knife".
The character 牛　can be read Ushi meaning "Cow",(or in China as "Ox"). But it is read as "Cow" only when referring to the animal itself. When referring to the beef from that cow, it is read Gyuu.

For example.
ーMatsuzaka Ushi 松坂牛　refers to the cow breed that is the source of one of the highly prized Wa-Gyuuniku 和牛肉 now shortened and known globally as Wa-Gyuu 和牛。
ーMatsuzaka Gyuu 松坂牛　refers to beef that comes from the Matsuzaka Cow.

Early attempts to translate Japanese into English were terrible, and the Gyuto ended up translated as the rather ridiculous "Cow Sword". And quite a number of websites, including knife dealers, continue to use this absurd translation, leading many new to Japanese culinary knives to believe this nonsense. Today of you use Google translate, a Gyuto 牛刀　will show up in English as "Chef's Knife". 

While many true Japanese knife enthusiasts may already be aware that "Cow Sword" is incorrect, there are many new comers who read the erroneous references on the internet and believe it. I can only hope that those in the know will help correct this mistranslation.


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## DavidPF (Feb 11, 2021)

Is it fair to say that even though "cow sword" is a ridiculous attempt at translation, the general idea that this type of knife is (or was) regarded as particularly suitable for cutting red meat is still valid?

(Having no real connection with Japan or its culture myself, I see that type of knife as a multi-purpose kitchen knife, with no association towards any types of food.)


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Feb 11, 2021)

KenHash said:


> In the the late 1800s, Japan underwent the Meiji Restoration. A civil war was fought and Rule was changed from the Tokugawa Shogunate to the Imperial Rule with the Emperor as head. This period is when Japan changed from a Feudal country to an industrialized one and a mass effort to "catch up" with the West was carried out through students studying abroad as well as experts in various fields invited to Japan. In addition to the various industrial and infrastructure changes came western cultural imports such as foods and cuisines. And along with that came the tools to make them. While meat had been used in Japanese cuisine to a very limited extent, western dishes called for the use of the Chef's Knife. The personal Chef for Emperor Meiji trained in Paris.
> 
> The western Chef's knife was, and is, called a Yo-Bouchou. 洋　包丁　Literally, "Western Cooking Knife". It also became known as a Gyu-Tou 牛刀 shortened from 牛肉　包丁　Gyuniku Bouchou - Literally "Beef Knife".
> The character 牛　can be read Ushi meaning "Cow",(or in China as "Ox"). But it is read as "Cow" only when referring to the animal itself. When referring to the beef from that cow, it is read Gyuu.
> ...



Preach. Wait till people hear that yo handles are more traditional than wa handles


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## DavidPF (Feb 11, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Wait till people hear that yo handles are more traditional than wa handles


Do you mean for all knives in Japan?

Or do you mean that the first gyuto made in Japan was self-consciously western and therefore had a western-style handle?

(Or that the first western knives in Japan were sold bare tang, and the first western customers who bought some came back the next day calling out "Yo! Handles!"?)


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## rmrf (Feb 11, 2021)

I never knew gyuto="cow sword" was a bad translation! I thought it was named so strangely as a marketing ploy to get westerners to buy japanese knives. 

Yo-Bouchou (western cooking knife) makes a lot of sense to me. Gyuniku Bouchou -> gyuto also makes a lot of sense. The story I read was that gyutos excelled at cutting beef compared to traditional japanese knives and are so named. Is this story correct? Is the main problem that gyuto = "beef knife" != "cow sword"?

Edit: davidpf said it better than me


DavidPF said:


> Is it fair to say that even though "cow sword" is a ridiculous attempt at translation, the general idea that this type of knife is (or was) regarded as particularly suitable for cutting red meat is still valid?


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## panda (Feb 11, 2021)

still calling it cow sword idgaf


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Feb 11, 2021)

Yes - they consciously modeled after a western design for both handle and profile! The yo gyuto is traditional, the wa gyuto is a recent invention.



DavidPF said:


> (Or that the first western knives in Japan were sold bare tang, and the first western customers who bought some came back the next day calling out "Yo! Handles!"?)


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## DavidPF (Feb 11, 2021)

rmrf said:


> never knew gyuto="cow sword" was a bad translation! I thought it was named so strangely as a marketing ploy to get westerners to buy japanese knives.


Sometimes, a naïve or overly literal translation can be interesting or entertaining, like "handshoe" and "throatcloth" in German for glove and scarf.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Feb 12, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Sometimes, a naïve or overly literal translation can be interesting or entertaining, like "handshoe" and "throatcloth" in German for glove and scarf.



Reminds me of some fun japanese body part examples:

kubi = neck

Nipples = chikubi = chichi + kubi = breast neck
Wrist = tekubi = te + kubi = hand neck
Ankles = ashikubi = ashi + kubi = foot neck


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## JBroida (Feb 12, 2021)

KenHash said:


> In the the late 1800s, Japan underwent the Meiji Restoration. A civil war was fought and Rule was changed from the Tokugawa Shogunate to the Imperial Rule with the Emperor as head. This period is when Japan changed from a Feudal country to an industrialized one and a mass effort to "catch up" with the West was carried out through students studying abroad as well as experts in various fields invited to Japan. In addition to the various industrial and infrastructure changes came western cultural imports such as foods and cuisines. And along with that came the tools to make them. While meat had been used in Japanese cuisine to a very limited extent, western dishes called for the use of the Chef's Knife. The personal Chef for Emperor Meiji trained in Paris.
> 
> The western Chef's knife was, and is, called a Yo-Bouchou. 洋　包丁　Literally, "Western Cooking Knife". It also became known as a Gyu-Tou 牛刀 shortened from 牛肉　包丁　Gyuniku Bouchou - Literally "Beef Knife".
> The character 牛　can be read Ushi meaning "Cow",(or in China as "Ox"). But it is read as "Cow" only when referring to the animal itself. When referring to the beef from that cow, it is read Gyuu.
> ...


preach... been telling people this for years. I think non-japanese speakers (or Chinese for that matter) have a tendency to break down each kanji of each word, not understanding that when you put things together, their meaning can change. 牛=cow 刀=sword but 牛刀=chefs knife


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

The English word "window" means "wind eye". But we don't think that every time we say it - to us the word just means what it means.

Also you guys have ruined my night, because now I'll have dreams of a sword fight between two cows, with Beowulf as referee.


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## Qapla' (Feb 12, 2021)

KenHash said:


> The western Chef's knife was, and is, called a Yo-Bouchou. 洋　包丁　Literally, "Western Cooking Knife". It also became known as a Gyu-Tou 牛刀 shortened from 牛肉　包丁　Gyuniku Bouchou - Literally "Beef Knife".



Then how did 刀 appear in that alleged shorthand? It's not a character in 包丁.

I still maintain that 牛刀 is a silly name and a misinformed concept, and that the Cantonese name 大廚刀 always was far more appropriate.


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> Then how did 刀 appear in that alleged shorthand? It's not a character in 包丁.
> 
> I still maintain that 牛刀 is a silly name and a misinformed concept, and that the Cantonese name 大廚刀 always was far more appropriate.


The same with English: "window" is a demonstrably silly word, and we should call it "fenster" (which is quite logical and means hole through the wall). But we don't, because our word is our word.


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## panda (Feb 12, 2021)

速度


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> kubi = neck
> 
> chikubi = chichi + kubi = breast neck
> tekubi = te + kubi = hand neck
> ashikubi = ashi + kubi = foot neck


kubikubi = very close horse race?


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## KenHash (Feb 12, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Is it fair to say that even though "cow sword" is a ridiculous attempt at translation, the general idea that this type of knife is (or was) regarded as particularly suitable for cutting red meat is still valid?
> 
> (Having no real connection with Japan or its culture myself, I see that type of knife as a multi-purpose kitchen knife, with no association towards any types of food.)



I would say it was valid at the time (1800s) when there were not many red meat dishes and no culinary knife had really been developed specifically for it. Compare this to the near ridiculous number of fish knives that developed.
Is it valid today? I doubt it since the Gyuto is used everywhere for far more than just "meat".


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## KenHash (Feb 12, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Reminds me of some fun japanese body part examples:
> 
> kubi = neck
> 
> ...



Added the actual meaning (as opposed to literal translation) for those who don't know Japanese.
Also, "Kubi wo toru"...To take the neck...To behead (as in ancient times)
"Kubi ni naru"...to get fired from a job


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## KenHash (Feb 12, 2021)

JBroida said:


> preach... been telling people this for years. I think non-japanese speakers (or Chinese for that matter) have a tendency to break down each kanji of each word, not understanding that when you put things together, their meaning can change. 牛=cow 刀=sword but 牛刀=chefs knife



I don't doubt you have. Put in the simplest way, because Kanji can be read 2 ways (Onyomi and Kunyomi),
牛刀 if read Ushi Gatana would be a "Cow Sword". Of course no word or thing exists but that would be what it mean.
牛刀 if read Gyuto is a "Beef Knife".

The character 刀 is used for bladed tools from swords to knives, and can cause confusion in translation.


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## KenHash (Feb 12, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> Then how did 刀 appear in that alleged shorthand? It's not a character in 包丁.
> 
> I still maintain that 牛刀 is a silly name and a misinformed concept, and that the Cantonese name 大廚刀 always was far more appropriate.



It appears silly because 刀 can refer to a sword, knife, small blade, etc. Taking that into account, I think a knife specifically for cutting 牛肉　(at the time, and when it was uncommon) puts 牛刀 into perspective.　I agree it may seem silly to someone not familiar as it doesn't really give a precise description.
大廚刀　in Cantonese simply translates as 大きな包丁(a big houchou) in Japanese. That second character is used here in 厨房 chuubou to mean the kitchen work area as in a restaurant. What is interesting is that at one time a Houchou 包丁was also called a Houtou 包刀。

All knives theoretically should end with 刀。However the term Houchou 包丁　was adopted to mean "kitchen knife".
There are a couple of theories as to the origins of Houchou. 

(1) One is that in ancient China, 包（庖）meant the place where wrapped meat was kept. In other words a Kitchen. And 丁 referred to the person using that kitchen. Hence a 包丁 was a Chef. And the Chef used a 包丁刀。During the Muromachi period in Japan (1336 to 1573.)the 刀 was dropped,　leaving 包丁as the knife the Chef uses.

(2) Another theory is that there was in Ancient China a great chef of magnificent knife skill named Tei 丁。
And that "Chef Tei's knife" 包丁の刀 became shortened to 包丁刀 then to present houchou 包丁。There is historical evidence that in Japan a Chef was called a 包丁in the Heian period (794-1185).

There may be other theories I haven't heard about and in any case I don't particularly prescribe to any of them.


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## KenHash (Feb 12, 2021)

panda said:


> still calling it cow sword idgaf



LOL. You can call it a Volkswagen Beetle and nobody would gaf.
What adds to the absurdity of "Cow Sword" is that cows were never killed with swords.
(1) Beef dishes entered Japan just at the same time it became illegal to carry a sword.
(2) Eating "cow meat" was unheard of. Meat meant Boar and Deer meat.


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## KenHash (Feb 12, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Preach. Wait till people hear that yo handles are more traditional than wa handles



I'm holding off on bringing up asking how 馬車馬 "Carriage Horse" ended up being "Workhorse". lol


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## ian (Feb 12, 2021)

It’s damn hard to pull a carriage! Trust me.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 12, 2021)

Ken, here and largely elsewhere on the net, I've always genuinely appreciated your depth of knowledge and willingness to share it.

So, prior to all of this, if I wandered into the typical Japanese household, what would I be likely to find? Yanagi and usuba? Other shapes since discarded?


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## inferno (Feb 12, 2021)

i prefer the term "cow sword" over "beef knife". it sounds much cooler so i will continue using it.


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## tostadas (Feb 12, 2021)

"There is no cow level"


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## Qapla' (Feb 12, 2021)

KenHash said:


> It appears silly because 刀 can refer to a sword, knife, small blade, etc. Taking that into account, I think a knife specifically for cutting 牛肉　(at the time, and when it was uncommon) puts 牛刀 into perspective.　I agree it may seem silly to someone not familiar as it doesn't really give a precise description.


I meant it's silly because chef's knives are not in fact specialized knives for cutting beef, and because "Big Kitchen Knife" is a far more accurate description given its general-use nature than is "Beef Knife".


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

tostadas said:


> "There is no cow level"


No, but there's a spirit level, and you can use that to check the cow's spirit and extrapolate from there. But cows are pretty lumpy, and their spirits are probably lumpy too, so it's going to be difficult to obtain a valid reading.

Maybe the best way to get a cow level is to have a drummer sit on the cow, and use the drummer's natural characteristics as a kind of proxy.

So maybe there is a cow level after all; it might be a drummer.


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## big_adventure (Feb 12, 2021)

I dunno, those big band saws used by butchering operations probably leave a cow pretty freaking level.


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I dunno, those big band saws used by butchering operations probably leave a cow pretty freaking level.


For a big band saw, you can use a big band drummer. Same effect.


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## big_adventure (Feb 12, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> For a big band saw, you can use a big band drummer. Same effect.



The cowcaphony that will ensue will be impressive, I believe.


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> The cowcaphony that will ensue will be impressive, I believe.


On the contrary, convincing your drummer to go and sit on a cow is sometimes the first step to improving the band. Especially if he's feeling a bit dehydrated ... we can only hope ...


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## YumYumSauce (Feb 12, 2021)

Whats tis then?


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

YumYumSauce said:


> Whats tis then?


A cow king is obviously the bovine equivalent of a drag king. A drag king is, in general, lacking a sword, such that some sort of substitute is obtained from time to time.

My main conclusion is "This looks potentially uncomfortable, depending".

Also, some current sword owners consider selecting a short one to be a bold move. This boldness is probably magnified by the fact of, you know, cows. (e.g. there is no reach-around if you can't even reach.)

Then again, short can be nice. It's a double-edged sword, I guess.


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## ModRQC (Feb 12, 2021)

Untangling meaning is interesting.

I would even more like to see the profile of the first Chef's knives back then and how they evolved?



nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Preach. Wait till people hear that yo handles are more traditional than wa handles



How were the handles on the traditional Japanese blades?


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## SeattleB (Feb 12, 2021)

@KenHash, thank you for the insight.

It's a bit off-topic, but can you describe the knives typically used in Japan before the advent of the European-style chef knife? Length, shape, handle? I'm not referring to 100 years ago, but in the decades before the Euro-chef knife became popular for blacksmiths to make. Also, I'm referring to higher-end chefs and home cooks. 

The reason I ask is that I noted that the concept of the Euro-chef knife was novel because the Japanese didn't eat a lot of beef. However, they still cut a lot of onions and other veggies back then. What did they use?


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> I would even more like to see the profile of the first Chef's knives back then and how they evolved?


In the period where "catching up with the West" was in fashion, the aim was certainly to make copies as faithful as possible, of the best examples available.

The attraction of westernizing everything came to an end, but adoption of individual items and processes carried on for a long time, especially concerning things "exotically western" for which there was interest. Yamaha hired one of the best American makers of brass musical instruments as a consultant, initially adopting designs and procedures very similar to his to the extent that they could be thought of as copies, then as time went on (of course - this is Yamaha) developing their own designs and expanding their brass instrument line to be one of the biggest sellers in the world. And that wasn't in the 1800s, they first hired him in 1966. (There is certainly a significant niche interest in Japanese society for performing and recording Western classical music.)


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

SeattleB said:


> the concept of the Euro-chef knife was novel because the Japanese didn't eat a lot of beef


This part confuses me, and maybe other people too, because a European-style chef's knife has no greater association with beef (at least in my mind) than it does with potatoes, parsley, or piranhas. If a European in a kitchen asks another European simply "Where's the knife?", he probably means this one.

A European butcher's knife is associated with beef, sure, but that's different. Have basic European knife styles changed so much since the time we're talking about, that the words no longer make sense? Was the first gyuto a copy of a butcher knife rather than a kitchen knife?

Maybe it's always been the Japanese habit to call each knife after its primary use, and it was easier to arbitrarily declare a "dummy" primary use for a Western-style knife (in which case "beef" seems sensible) instead of mangling the language to say "The knife Westerners call all-purpose but frankly we doubt it".


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## Qapla' (Feb 12, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> This part confuses me, and maybe other people too, because a European-style chef's knife has no greater association with beef (at least in my mind) than it does with potatoes, parsley, or piranhas. If a European in a kitchen asks another European simply "Where's the knife?", he probably means this one.
> 
> A European butcher's knife is associated with beef, sure, but that's different. Have basic European knife styles changed so much since the time we're talking about, that the words no longer make sense? Was the first gyuto a copy of a butcher knife rather than a kitchen knife?


This is what I was trying to get at in my earlier posts.



DavidPF said:


> ...instead of mangling the language to say "The knife Westerners call all-purpose but frankly we doubt it".


No mangling would've been required. 万能 (bannô, literally "10,000 capabilities") is the word for "all-purpose" or "general-use" in Japanese.


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> 万能 (bannô, literally "10,000 capabilities") is the word for "all-purpose" or "general-use" in Japanese.


It was the "frankly, we doubt it" part that I thought would be so clumsy 

Words develop by consensus and in local context, not just by logic. Nobody consults the language police before making up a word, and the person creating a word may consider their invention to be a stopgap or even a joke. But if people start actually using it, it becomes "the word", and that's pretty much it.

We say the number 1 as "wun" from some kind of long-ago joke or exaggeration - it _should_ sound exactly like the end of "alone". But it doesn't because it doesn't, and that's that.


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## big_adventure (Feb 12, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> It was the "frankly, we doubt it" part that I thought would be so clumsy
> 
> Words develop by consensus and in local context, not just by logic. *Nobody consults the language police before making up a word,* and the person creating a word may consider their invention to be a stopgap or even a joke. But if people start actually using it, it becomes "the word", and that's pretty much it.



Check up on French. We have the Academie Française, whose members are called "Immortals" and their job is to be the language police.


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## KenHash (Feb 12, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Ken, here and largely elsewhere on the net, I've always genuinely appreciated your depth of knowledge and willingness to share it.
> So, prior to all of this, if I wandered into the typical Japanese household, what would I be likely to find? Yanagi and usuba? Other shapes since discarded?



As unexciting as this may sound, the "average" home probably has nothing more than a Santoku or Gyuto, maybe a Nakiri, Petty, if that. Often of not great quality either. Zwilling sets are also popular along with Global and Seki Magoroku (Kai). Many malls here have Zwilling stores. Because of the smaller kitchen areas of most homes it's rare to see anything longer than 180mm. A 210 is about as big as I have seen. With the advent of packaged seafoods in supermarkets, the need to prepare fish from scratch has decreased. But in homes of older people, people who fish either commercial or recreational, you will invariably find yanagibas and debas. In commercial fishing towns you can sometimes come across unique regional knives. Just as in western countries, most people in Japan generally don't care too much about their kitchen knives. The fine handmade Japanese knives, and longer blade length ones, are really used only by the restaurant professionals.


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## KenHash (Feb 12, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> I meant it's silly because chef's knives are not in fact specialized knives for cutting beef, and because "Big Kitchen Knife" is a far more accurate description given its general-use nature than is "Beef Knife".



It may seem silly unless one takes into account the Japanese perspective in the 1800s when red meat dishes started getting popular in a country where knives were traditionally made specifically for one purpose. Even today there are many knives made for different species of fish. It makes sense that the Chef's Knife became called a Beef Knife. 
Personally, I find the term Yo-Bouchou (Western Knife) which is still used, to be very accurate. 
I suppose "Big Kitchen Knife" is fine if the only other knife in the kitchen is a Cai Dao.


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## KenHash (Feb 12, 2021)

SeattleB said:


> @KenHash, thank you for the insight.
> 
> It's a bit off-topic, but can you describe the knives typically used in Japan before the advent of the European-style chef knife? Length, shape, handle? I'm not referring to 100 years ago, but in the decades before the Euro-chef knife became popular for blacksmiths to make. Also, I'm referring to higher-end chefs and home cooks.
> 
> The reason I ask is that I noted that the concept of the Euro-chef knife was novel because the Japanese didn't eat a lot of beef. However, they still cut a lot of onions and other veggies back then. What did they use?



Knives were mostly Nakiri/Usuba and Kurouchi.

A print of Sakai 1754. There are Deba, Usuba, knives for sashimi, tabacco cutting knife.




A pair of knives from period 1680-1710.


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Check up on French. We have the Academie Française, whose members are called "Immortals" and their job is to be the language police.


Do French people really refuse to suggest new words for things?


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## Qapla' (Feb 12, 2021)

KenHash said:


> A pair of knives from period 1680-1710.


Looks a lot like what's popularly considered "gishiki-bôchô". (Though the definitions of gishiki-bocho have varied with region and time historically too.)


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## NO ChoP! (Feb 12, 2021)

So Korean kids sing of the santoki; a cute little bunny. Does that make a santoku a bunny sword?


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

NO ChoP! said:


> So Korean kids sing of the santoki; a cute little bunny. Does that make a santoku a bunny sword?


These two are Western religious figures, St. Ki and St. Ku.

Ki is considered the patron saint of rounded tails, Ku of rounded noses. Their feast day is celebrated jointly (VERY jointly) in one of the few saints' commemorations for which smoke other than incense is recommended. (It is not considered a high holy day, but it's 50% of the way there.)


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## DavidPF (Feb 12, 2021)

NO ChoP! said:


> So Korean kids sing of the santoki; a cute little bunny. Does that make a santoku a bunny sword?


To put "sword" on the end, you'd need to add "-to", like "bunny swords are called santokitos".

"Santokitos", not coincidentally, sounds like "antojitos" - our clue to the bunny's sudden disappearance.


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## KenHash (Feb 12, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> Looks a lot like what's popularly considered "gishiki-bôchô". (Though the definitions of gishiki-bocho have varied with region and time historically too.)



Yes. Knives of this kind are used in ceremonies.


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## Qapla' (Feb 13, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Do French people really refuse to suggest new words for things?


No, they consider the _importation_ of words for things to be subject to common-sense reasonable restrictions.

Though from what I understand, it's actually Canadians who do a better job of that sort of thing, q.v. "fin de semaine" instead of "week-end", "logiciel" instead of "software", "courriel" [courrier electronique] instead of "email", etc.









File:Arret.jpg - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## DavidPF (Feb 13, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> No, they consider the _importation_ of words for things to be subject to common-sense reasonable restrictions.
> 
> Though from what I understand, it's actually Canadians who do a better job of that sort of thing, q.v. "fin de semaine" instead of "week-end", "logiciel" instead of "software", "courriel" [courrier electronique] instead of "email", etc.
> 
> ...


I do live in the land of the Arrêt sign, though at the other end of the country... 

And I have a large pot that's coated with email. 

I'm glad that French people, just as Japanese people, are ready to create a new word when necessary.


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## big_adventure (Feb 13, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Do French people really refuse to suggest new words for things?



It's actually that the AF's "job" is to guard the purity and uniqueness of French, so when invasive words arrive (email) they propose something more French (courriel or mel).



NO ChoP! said:


> So Korean kids sing of the santoki; a cute little bunny. Does that make a santoku a bunny sword?



I don't own a santoku, but if this were true, I would own several.



Qapla' said:


> No, they consider the _importation_ of words for things to be subject to common-sense reasonable restrictions.
> 
> Though from what I understand, it's actually Canadians who do a better job of that sort of thing, q.v. "fin de semaine" instead of "week-end", "logiciel" instead of "software", "courriel" [courrier electronique] instead of "email", etc.
> 
> ...



Well said, but I'm pretty sure that "courriel" was a proposition of the AF. Fin de semaine is definitely not used in France as "week-end" (yes, we have a dash in the middle, it's OK). "Logiciel" is definitely used in France, more than "software," though everyone will understand the second. Only old people or people with large sticks hidden somewhere inside themselves use "courriel."



DavidPF said:


> I do live in the land of the Arrêt sign, though at the other end of the country...
> 
> And I have a large pot that's coated with email.
> 
> I'm glad that French people, just as Japanese people, are ready to create a new word when necessary.



We actually absorb words all the time, it's the immortals (and Jacques Chirac, back in the day) who wage war against it. The kids don't care.


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## KenHash (Feb 13, 2021)

@Qapla

Would you feel that Vegetable Sword or Dish Sword is the correct translation for 菜刀 (Caidao)?


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## Jovidah (Feb 13, 2021)

I think google translate is partially to blame here, considering it routinely translates gyuto as beef sword, cow sword, whatever... Whenever I use a google translation of a Japanese website about knives that's what I basically use to identify gyuto at this point.


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## Eloh (Feb 13, 2021)

Does it really matter if the Otto engine is called horse machine or whatever in Japanese


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## Qapla' (Feb 13, 2021)

KenHash said:


> @Qapla
> 
> Would you feel that Vegetable Sword or Dish Sword is the correct translation for 菜刀 (Caidao)?


I don't know enough Chinese to give a proper answer, but I'm aware that 刀 is used for knives of any kind in Chinese, and that they wouldn't call it 菜包丁.


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## inferno (Feb 13, 2021)

what does santoku mean? let me guess. "wife sword"


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## KenHash (Feb 13, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> I don't know enough Chinese to give a proper answer, but I'm aware that 刀 is used for knives of any kind in Chinese, and that they wouldn't call it 菜包丁.



Yes, the kanji character 刀 Tou in Japanese beef knife 牛刀 and, Dao in Chinese Vegetable knife 菜刀 Caidao
is used the same way. So a Caidao could easily have ended up being translated into English as "Vegetable Sword". Of course it ended up being "Chinese cleaver" which I admit to having some dispute with since some Caidaos are used like cleavers, I've seen other thin ones used to slice as well as any Yanagiba.

And yes, a kitchen knife is not called a 包丁 anywhere in China today, at least as far as I am aware. Which on one hand puts some doubt into my mind as to it's origins, but on the other hand reminds me that much of what came from China to Japan happened so long ago. For example, in China they simplified many Kanji whereas in Japan they kept most of them as they were maybe 1000 years ago. 

A Vegetable Knife became 菜切り包丁 Vegetable Cutting Knife　in Japan, now shortened to Nakiri 菜切り。


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## KenHash (Feb 13, 2021)

Eloh said:


> Does it really matter if the Otto engine is called horse machine or whatever in Japanese



LOL.....An Otto Engine is called Otto- Enjin in Japanese.
Undoubtedly it was probably called horse machine back in the 1800s when there were no such machines in Japan.
Because at the same time period an automobile was called a "Horseless Carriage" in the Europe and the United States.


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## KenHash (Feb 13, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> I think google translate is partially to blame here, considering it routinely translates gyuto as beef sword, cow sword, whatever... Whenever I use a google translation of a Japanese website about knives that's what I basically use to identify gyuto at this point.



I think you are right. Machine translations of Japanese text into English are atrocious. They work pretty well for western latin based languages, but not for Asian languages which rely on Kangi ideograms which may have mutiple readings or meanings.


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## Qapla' (Feb 13, 2021)

KenHash said:


> Of course it ended up being "Chinese cleaver" which I admit to having some dispute with since some Caidaos are used like cleavers, I've seen other thin ones used to slice as well as any Yanagiba.


This is an error that even knife-forum members continue to make, simply because it's fashionable to call anything tall and squarish a "cleaver" (or for that matter, anything with an extreme clip point a "kiritsuke"). If you mean machine-translations use "Chinese cleaver", it's because of user input to such (they think of western-style meat-cleavers and assume anything shaped like such is the same).



KenHash said:


> And yes, a kitchen knife is not called a 包丁 anywhere in China today, at least as far as I am aware. Which on one hand puts some doubt into my mind as to it's origins, but on the other hand reminds me that much of what came from China to Japan happened so long ago. For example, in China they simplified many Kanji whereas in Japan they kept most of them as they were maybe 1000 years ago.


I usually hear of 包丁 being what you described earlier in the thread (the Japanese having picked up on Pao Ding or sometimes "Cook Ding", the name of a certain chef in Taoist legendry). Though the 包 therein might be a simplification or erstwhile homophone for yet another character. But I have no actual knowledge on which such theories are more true than others.


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## KenHash (Feb 13, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> This is an error that even knife-forum members continue to make, simply because it's fashionable to call anything tall and squarish a "cleaver" (or for that matter, anything with an extreme clip point a "kiritsuke"). If you mean machine-translations use "Chinese cleaver", it's because of user input to such (they think of western-style meat-cleavers and assume anything shaped like such is the same).
> 
> I usually hear of 包丁 being what you described earlier in the thread (the Japanese having picked up on Pao Ding or sometimes "Cook Ding", the name of a certain chef in Taoist legendry). Though the 包 therein might be a simplification or erstwhile homophone for yet another character. But I have no actual knowledge on which such theories are more true than others.



Absolutely agree. I think that if the 牛刀 can be called GYUTO in English, then 菜刀 should be called CAIDAO in English. 

As for 包丁 the only thing I know is that the 包 was simplified from *庖* .


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## Qapla' (Feb 13, 2021)

KenHash said:


> Absolutely agree. I think that if the 牛刀 can be called GYUTO in English, then 菜刀 should be called CAIDAO in English.


If the English-speaker prefers the Mandarin rendering of such, yes. (菜刀 is coi-dou in Cantonese, and yet other things in other dialects.)


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## DavidPF (Feb 13, 2021)

Any time that things get poetic, descriptive, or allusive, they become more "interesting" to translate, because the original becomes less obvious.

"Foin du bâtard, illustre dame, 
qui pour me perdre à vos doux yeux 
dit que l'amour et le vin vieux 
mettent en deuil mon coeur, mon âme!"

Two English-only kids (one of them was me) began reading something we thought was approximately like this:

"Le foin d'un bâtard sert pour illustrer une dame..."

At least we soon realized we were lost.


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## big_adventure (Feb 14, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Any time that things get poetic, descriptive, or allusive, they become more "interesting" to translate, because the original becomes less obvious.
> 
> "Foin du bâtard, illustre dame,
> qui pour me perdre à vos doux yeux
> ...



Yeah, that's going to be difficult to translate with a french-english dictionary or Google.


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## DavidPF (Feb 14, 2021)

There was of course no Google at the time - but it does still make a unique and puzzling news headline:

_Hay of Bastard Illustrates Lady_

The only reason this belongs in the thread (maybe, sort of) is that words in Japanese and Chinese sometimes rely on implications and associations to make their point - but it doesn't follow to say that the words ARE those implications and associations.


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