# Burgvogel..any good?



## HappyamateurDK (May 1, 2020)

Hi all.

Looking for a place to buy Messermeister in Europe. I came across Burgvogel, a sollingen based family company that apparently is OEM for Messermeister. 

Does anybody know if Burgvogel is any good? They should be traditional forged knives. 

They have lines with wood handles that look a lot like the Messermeister oliva line. Anybody knows how the Burgvogel oliva, natura and juglans line is compared to the Messermeister oliva? 

Thanks in advance, and have a nice day. 
Søren


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## JayS20 (May 1, 2020)

As far as I know Burgvogel=Messermeister in Europe. So the Burgvogel Olivia is the same as the Messermeister at least according to looks and given parameters. Not sure if anybody ever made a deeper compare of the two like grind and such. So you will get it cheaper in Europe like the Wüsthof Ikon which runs up to 180$ in the US you will get in Germany from 80€ up.


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## Benuser (May 1, 2020)

About Burgvogel: in Europe it's the small challenger of Zwilling / Henckels and Wüsthof. Less marketing, lower price. Same Krupp's 4116, same profile. IIRC wasn't that much handle heavy as Wüsthof, but take it with a grain of salt.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 1, 2020)

Benuser said:


> About Burgvogel: in Europe it's the small challenger of Zwilling / Henckels and Wüsthof. Less marketing, lower price. Same Krupp's 4116, same profile. IIRC wasn't that much handle heavy as Wüsthof, but take it with a grain of salt.



Thanks for your input. I did notice they are priced bit lower then zwilling and wurtshof. But how are they compared to those two. When it comes to quality, finnish and sharpness? ..is it a knife that will last for years like the others?


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## Benuser (May 1, 2020)

HappyamateurDK said:


> Thanks for your input. I did notice they are priced bit lower then zwilling and wurtshof. But how are they compared to those two. When it comes to quality, finnish and sharpness? ..is it a knife that will last for years like the others?


Actually, it's hard to do worse than Wüsthof with a factory edge that is more acute than the steel takes or holds. But any of those factory edges require immediate sharpening out of the box and thinning behind the edge, at least to remove the shoulders to begin with, and convex the bevels where they've put a V-edge. The Burgvogel I've seen were slightly softer than recent Wüsthof, but before Wüsthof Burgvogel has introduced robotised sharpening instead of the old man-made convex sharpening that was much better suited to the steel they use. 
I don't believe one has to worry about longevity or finish of those knives. They're built to widstand all kind of abuse. That's exactly the problem: cutting performance is poor, because they are made for uneducated people. The question should rather be whether the profile suits you. High tip, fat belly and handle heaviness is fine for very tall people rock chopping on far too low a board. Otherwise, the high tip can't be used without elevating your elbow above your shoulder.
And are you sure you need a stainless blade? Better open a thread with the questionnaire. There are, within any budget, far better options than a Zwilling, Wüsthof or even Burgvogel.


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## Noodle Soup (May 1, 2020)

I have a 10-inch carving knife from Burgvogel that works fine for the purpose, as in roast chicken, beef, turkey etc. I don't know about the other knives but a wholesaler I used to do business with claimed they were the favorite of pro cooks in Europe. That was maybe 25-30 years ago before Japanese cutlery became the thing.


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## Benuser (May 1, 2020)

Noodle Soup said:


> I have a 10-inch carving knife from Burgvogel that works fine for the purpose, as in roast chicken, beef, turkey etc. I don't know about the other knives but a wholesaler I used to do business with claimed they were the favorite of pro cooks in Europe. That was maybe 25-30 years ago before Japanese cutlery became the thing.


Since, the German knives have changed as well. No longer hand sharpening a convex edge. Same thickness behind the edge, though, and the same Krupp's 4116.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 1, 2020)

Benuser said:


> Since, the German knives have changed as well. No longer hand sharpening a convex edge. Same thickness behind the edge, though, and the same Krupp's 4116.





Benuser said:


> Actually, it's hard to do worse than Wüsthof with a factory edge that is more acute than the steel takes or holds. But any of those factory edges require immediate sharpening out of the box and thinning behind the edge, at least to remove the shoulders to begin with, and convex the bevels where they've put a V-edge. The Burgvogel I've seen were slightly softer than recent Wüsthof, but before Wüsthof Burgvogel has introduced robotised sharpening instead of the old man-made convex sharpening that was much better suited to the steel they use.
> I don't believe one has to worry about longevity or finish of those knives. They're built to widstand all kind of abuse. That's exactly the problem: cutting performance is poor, because they are made for uneducated people. The question should rather be whether the profile suits you. High tip, fat belly and handle heaviness is fine for very tall people rock chopping on far too low a board. Otherwise, the high tip can't be used without elevating your elbow above your shoulder.
> And are you sure you need a stainless blade? Better open a thread with the questionnaire. There are, within any budget, far better options than a Zwilling, Wüsthof or even Burgvogel.



i am aware that German knives are adifferent animal then Japanese. I have a little selection of Japanese knifes I like a lot. But for some reason. When coocking just needs to be done, or rougher tasks. I always ends up grabbing my old Fdick knife, quite a beater, but not very sexy. I think the Burgvogel with walnut handle and polished blade is rather nice. And therefore I would like to know what the Burgvogel is like in quality and sharpness. Compared to other German/western knives. I don’t expect them to compete with a Japanese knife.

also..for some reason I like it when small companies gets some attention. And not only large corporations like wusthof or zwilling.


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## Noodle Soup (May 1, 2020)

HappyamateurDK said:


> i am aware that German knives are adifferent animal then Japanese. I have a little selection of Japanese knifes I like a lot. But for some reason. When coocking just needs to be done, or rougher tasks. I always ends up grabbing my old Fdick knife, quite a beater, but not very sexy. I think the Burgvogel with walnut handle and polished blade is rather nice. And therefore I would like to know what the Burgvogel is like in quality and sharpness. Compared to other German/western knives. I don’t expect them to compete with a Japanese knife.
> 
> also..for some reason I like it when small companies gets some attention. And not only large corporations like wusthof or zwilling.



I to have an old carbon steel 10-inch F. Dick chef that a friend gave me that I'm very fond of. I had Seattle Edge reprofile the worn down blade and sharpen it up. Seems to preform as well as most Japanese blades in the same class to me.


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## Noodle Soup (May 1, 2020)

By the way, anyone know when F. Dick quit making carbon blades? I was one of their dealers in the early 80's and there were none to be had then.


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## Benuser (May 1, 2020)

Noodle Soup said:


> By the way, anyone know when F. Dick quit making carbon blades? I was one of their dealers in the early 80's and there were none to be had then.


Just a guess: the latest were butcher's knives in the late sixties.


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## Benuser (May 1, 2020)

HappyamateurDK said:


> i am aware that German knives are adifferent animal then Japanese. I have a little selection of Japanese knifes I like a lot. But for some reason. When coocking just needs to be done, or rougher tasks. I always ends up grabbing my old Fdick knife, quite a beater, but not very sexy. I think the Burgvogel with walnut handle and polished blade is rather nice. And therefore I would like to know what the Burgvogel is like in quality and sharpness. Compared to other German/western knives. I don’t expect them to compete with a Japanese knife.
> 
> also..for some reason I like it when small companies gets some attention. And not only large corporations like wusthof or zwilling.


An excellent beater is the Pallarès Solsona 22cm carbon. C60 @60Rc. Strongly convexed. €39. 





Pallarès Solsona Koksmes/Groentemes


Palmhout. Lengte lemmet 22 cm, carbonstaal.



www.damplank.nl


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## HappyamateurDK (May 2, 2020)

Noodle Soup said:


> I to have an old carbon steel 10-inch F. Dick chef that a friend gave me that I'm very fond of. I had Seattle Edge reprofile the worn down blade and sharpen it up. Seems to preform as well as most Japanese blades in the same class to me.



i have often bin tempted to try a western carbon knife, like the K Sabatier carbon line..just don’t know how If I’m into the whole patina and care thing with carbon knives.


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## Eloh (May 2, 2020)

I would say burgvogel is a better alternative to Wüsthof these days, the ones i had in hand very def thinner ground.
Also imo you have to remember that these slightly softer steel knives are made to use with a polishing rod (Dick Micro is the reference here) and not to touch up on a stone all the time.
Also you should have a look at the thinly ground Herder Windmühlen knives, wich today are the closest you'll get to traditional German chef knives.


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## Benuser (May 2, 2020)

Eloh said:


> I would say burgvogel is a better alternative to Wüsthof these days, the ones i had in hand very def thinner ground.
> Also imo you have to remember that these slightly softer steel knives are made to use with a polishing rod (Dick Micro is the reference here) and not to touch up on a stone all the time.
> Also you should have a look at the thinly ground Herder Windmühlen knives, wich today are the closest you'll get to traditional German chef knives.


But no Herder 1922 as a beater, please!


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## Eloh (May 2, 2020)

Benuser said:


> But no Herder 1922 as a beater, please!


true!


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## Benuser (May 2, 2020)

HappyamateurDK said:


> i have often bin tempted to try a western carbon knife, like the K Sabatier carbon line..just don’t know how If I’m into the whole patina and care thing with carbon knives.


Especially if you're looking for a beater it's a good opportunity, I'd say. You use it for specific task. With any knife you will afterwards clean at least the edge, I guess. Same with a carbon. Only difference: before a patina got installed you best rinse it with hot water, and make sure it's really dry before putting away.


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## andrew23 (May 2, 2020)

I have used two Messermeisters, a boning knife, and the park plaza carbon. The boning knife (I think the elite?) Was nice, if the handle a bit small, but it was finished nicely.

I've been enjoying the plaza carbon a lot, especially the blade shape, but for me it was a lot better after removing the faux-bolster. (Faulster?)


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## HappyamateurDK (May 2, 2020)

Benuser said:


> But no Herder 1922 as a beater, please!


Why not ? Don’t know the knife. So I’m a bit curious why it’s not good for a beater ?


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## Benuser (May 2, 2020)

HappyamateurDK said:


> Why not ? Don’t know the knife. So I’m a bit curious why it’s not good for a beater ?


Really thin behind the edge.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 2, 2020)

Benuser said:


> Really thin behind the edge.



too thin, so it becomes brittle or ?


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## Benuser (May 2, 2020)

Not brittle. It's simple C75W steel @60Rc. If you're looking for a beater I guess some abuse is to be expected. Have than a thicker blade so that damage that seems inevitable doesn't have too much consequences. A thin edge is relatively fragile. The same abuse that causes an indentation of 1mm with a Herder will be hardly noticeable with a Misono Swedish yo-deba.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 2, 2020)

Benuser said:


> Not brittle. It's simple C75W steel @60Rc. If you're looking for a beater I guess some abuse is to be expected. Have than a thicker blade so that damage that seems inevitable doesn't have too much consequences. A thin edge is relatively fragile. The same abuse that causes an indentation of 1mm with a Herder will be hardly noticeable with a Misono Swedish yo-deba.
> View attachment 79069


 I see.. makes sense  then it certainly ain’t for me. Over the years I have developed a habit of using the Fdick a bit hard.


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## HRC_64 (May 2, 2020)

I'm slumming the covid-19 crisis with a euro-beater...
Wustoff (grand-prix v1) is good knife due to profile.
Overall, Wustoff is good desert island knife.


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## M1k3 (May 2, 2020)

HRC_64 said:


> I'm slumming the covid-19 crisis with a euro-beater...
> Wustoff (grand-prix v1) is good knife due to profile.
> Overall, Wustoff is good desert island knife.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 3, 2020)

Eloh said:


> I would say burgvogel is a better alternative to Wüsthof these days, the ones i had in hand very def thinner ground.
> Also imo you have to remember that these slightly softer steel knives are made to use with a polishing rod (Dick Micro is the reference here) and not to touch up on a stone all the time.
> Also you should have a look at the thinly ground Herder Windmühlen knives, wich today are the closest you'll get to traditional German chef knives.



I don’t have a Dick micro steel, but I have another Fdick rod that I would say is fairly fine, but not polished..it is this one


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## Famima (May 3, 2020)

HappyamateurDK said:


> i have often bin tempted to try a western carbon knife, like the K Sabatier carbon line..just don’t know how If I’m into the whole patina and care thing with carbon knives.



Carbon Sabatiers make great beater knives because they're tough and very easy/quick to steel back into shape, plus they are easy to sharpen when you need. I have a 12" old nogent that gets wheeled out for eg splitting lobsters, big pumkins/squashes, etc., plus is actually a pleasure to use for prep too (profile is good and it's nicely tapered towards the tip so surprisingly useful for tip work). Plus a newer 8" k-sab au carbone that isn't as good to be honest (and also needed a lot of work on the stones to get the edge in shape, it came very badly prepped out of the box) , but still useful. Quality can be hit and miss but perfect for an abuseable knife. Well worth trying out. I also keep a couple of Victorinox chefs and a Henckels 20cm chef for similar usage - very serviceable too but I'm only keeping them because others in the house aren't as careful with carbon steel! Otherwise I'd get shot and keep the Sabatiers together with the rest of my japanese knives.


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## Eloh (May 3, 2020)

HappyamateurDK said:


> I don’t have a Dick micro steel, but I have another Fdick rod that I would say is fairly fine, but not polished..it is this one
> View attachment 79124



im not entirely sure, but this should be the "standardzug", wich would be coarser than the micro, wich is fine, but means that its more abrasive, so you need to go to the stones sooner.
Best would be the microfeinzug together with a 1k stone imo.


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## Benuser (May 3, 2020)

I use a small piece of Belgian Blue Brocken instead. With a few edge leading strokes to refresh and deburr any edge. I use — old school, I humbly admit — saliva instead of water or oil. The Dickoron Micro is very nice, I admit, but it's not that easy to hit the right angle. It doesn't give the tactile feedback I expect — besides, it's quite expensive.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 4, 2020)

Eloh said:


> im not entirely sure, but this should be the "standardzug", wich would be coarser than the micro, wich is fine, but means that its more abrasive, so you need to go to the stones sooner.
> Best would be the microfeinzug together with a 1k stone imo.



I’ve actually always thought that the “ standardzug “ I own was pretty smooth/fine compared to the ones that sometimes comes with a set of knives. Or even a zwilling rod I had before. That was a lot more coarse. But I can see that the micro is way finer/smoother


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## HappyamateurDK (May 4, 2020)

Benuser said:


> I use a small piece of Belgian Blue Brocken instead. With a few edge leading strokes to refresh and deburr any edge. I use — old school, I humbly admit — saliva instead of water or oil. The Dickoron Micro is very nice, I admit, but it's not that easy to hit the right angle. It doesn't give the tactile feedback I expect — besides, it's quite expensive.



yeah..the micro is about 90-100 Europe’s. Quite expensive for a steel rod. But assumes it lasts a lifetime with home use,


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## Benuser (May 5, 2020)

For reviving an edge, I do as does @stringer for deburring:


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