# Kramer Article



## watercrawl (May 26, 2011)

Fun read:

http://www.theolympian.com/2011/05/25/1663401/cutting-edge.html


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## karloevaristo (May 26, 2011)

great article...


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## rockbox (May 26, 2011)

These articles are why bob makes the dough. If any of the knifemakers here got an CI article, they couldnt handle the amount of business.


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## mateo (May 26, 2011)

rockbox said:


> These articles are why bob makes the dough. If any of the knifemakers here got an CI article, they couldnt handle the amount of business.


 
True... also, I've noticed that the Kramer articles in particular always sound the same. It's as if all journalists wanting to write an article about a knife maker start with the exact same formula = set context of forge in a city, talk briefly about how epic knives are, give prices, talk about layered steel, talk about 1 out of 1XX bladesmiths in country and follow up with another account of ABS test... etc.


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## Noodle Soup (May 26, 2011)

I'm with Mateo, if you have read one mass media profile of Kramer you have read them all. Always making a big deal about his ABS mastersmith rating which has nothing to do with food prep blades. I was impressed when Murray Carter passed the test with one of his own kitchen knives though. That was probably a first for the ABS.


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## rockbox (May 26, 2011)

Noodle Soup said:


> I'm with Mateo, if you have read one mass media profile of Kramer you have read them all. Always making a big deal about his ABS mastersmith rating which has nothing to do with food prep blades. I was impressed when Murray Carter passed the test with one of his own kitchen knives though. That was probably a first for the ABS.



Lets not down play it. Getting ABS certified isn't easy. If it were, every knife maker would do it. Its not the most relevant test, but you have to have skills to pass it. How do you know Carter did it with a kitchen knife? Most of the knifemakers make a specific knife for the test, just like them make specific knives for the kitchen. Bob is a great knife maker and a nice guy and I wish I would have bought one of his knives 5 years ago like Adam did. I'm also glad and honored that we two ABS guys that do kitchen knives on our board.

BTW, at least no one with a Kramer has complained that their handles fall off. LOL


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## oivind_dahle (May 26, 2011)

I like the article, and Im happy for Bob that he is doing well.
We should all be happy for focus on kitchen knives, cause the more are interested the better knives is produced!

I love Bob Kramer for the marketing he is doing for all of us.


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## Marko Tsourkan (May 26, 2011)

oivind_dahle said:


> I like the article, and Im happy for Bob that he is doing well.
> We should all be happy for focus on kitchen knives, cause the more are interested the better knives is produced!
> 
> I love Bob Kramer for the marketing he is doing for all of us.


 
Yes, Kramer has raised profiles for kitchen knives and created a market for higher end knives. I also think he pushed a bar a level higher in making performance knives. Marketing is one thing, but 52100 is a great steel that will outperform most steels if heat treated properly. 

For that, I tip my hat to Mr. Kramer and say Thank You and I am happy for Your success, as the benefits will trickle down to others who are in or want to get into the market (yours truly included) and who share the philosophy that to succeed, you don't stop at any level, have to always try to improve your work, no matter how good it is. 

M

M


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## Noodle Soup (May 26, 2011)

"How do you know Carter did it with a kitchen knife?" 

Murray told me he did. As for the handles coming off, I'm not sure Kramer has ever tried a Wa handle. I would be surprised if any high end maker's western style slab handles ever came off.


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## watercrawl (May 26, 2011)

Noodle Soup said:


> "How do you know Carter did it with a kitchen knife?"
> 
> Murray told me he did. As for the handles coming off, I'm not sure Kramer has ever tried a Wa handle. I would be surprised if any high end maker's western style slab handles ever came off.


 
Oh, they have....even one's from Murray Carter....he told me so himself.


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## sudsy9977 (May 26, 2011)

Noodle Soup said:


> "How do you know Carter did it with a kitchen knife?"
> 
> Murray told me he did. As for the handles coming off, I'm not sure Kramer has ever tried a Wa handle. I would be surprised if any high end maker's western style slab handles ever came off.


 



just to be clear...are you talking about the performance test or the knives for judging?.....ryan


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## Noodle Soup (May 26, 2011)

The performance test, chopping 2X4's, rope etc. I assume he also had to make the fancy dagger and other knives required to pass mastersmith. I also know Murray thought it would be interesting to pass the performance test with what he was best known for, a kitchen type knife. Not sure which model he chose but you could ask him. 

It hasn't been mentioned here but Kramer started out making kitchen knives by stock removal, even after he had his mastersmith rating. Does anyone know when he changed over to all forged? I don't. It would be interesting to compare the performance of the two types.


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## Dave Martell (May 26, 2011)

I didn't think that Bob forged his knives but rather forged the damascus for stock removal. I would also think that if he's smart he's probably having his 52100 blanks cut out for him for stock removal.


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## DevinT (May 26, 2011)

Dave Martell said:


> I didn't think that Bob forged his knives but rather forged the damascus for stock removal. I would also think that if he's smart he's probably having his 52100 blanks cut out for him for stock removal.


 
Bob does forge to shape some of his damascus blades, it depends on the pattern. I don't think that he forges to shape his carbon steel blades. He did at one time. He cuts out his blades one at a time.

We all need to have media exposure and keep educating people about kitchen knives. We all benifit from his leadership. 

Congrats and thanks to Bob Kramer.

Hoss


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## sudsy9977 (May 26, 2011)

thanks for the clarification noodle...yeah i have seen murray's test knives...everyone has to make the fancy dagger but some of his others were kitchen knives....i think he made a deba and yanagi for two of them.....ryan


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## sudsy9977 (May 26, 2011)

i think alot of people would be surprised at how much stock removal has to be involved in some damascus making....you just can't get some patterns without it....ryan


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## stereo.pete (May 26, 2011)

Today I found this blurb and video of Kramer on Grubstreet.com, and figured this would be the right place to share.

http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2011/05/see_video_of_a_knife_that_can.html

Does anyone want to do the can test on their knives  ?


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## so_sleepy (May 26, 2011)

I've never seen the can trick before. How much of that is the knife vs. the technique?


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## rockbox (May 26, 2011)

stereo.pete said:


> Today I found this blurb and video of Kramer on Grubstreet.com, and figured this would be the right place to share.
> 
> http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2011/05/see_video_of_a_knife_that_can.html
> 
> Does anyone want to do the can test on their knives  ?



He did that with a Zwilling. Not bad.


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## Noodle Soup (May 26, 2011)

Ok, a test like that coke can doesn't mean anything to me until I try it myself so see how difficult it actually is. So--- One coke can against my 270mm Hiromoto Aogami Super Gyuto I bought off Japan Chef Knives a couple of years ago. Currently $165. I had recently sharpened the knife on a 8000 grit waterstone but it had been used once or twice since then. Argued with myself if I should resharpen but the knife felt plenty sharp so I went for the coke can as is. One swing, coke can cut in half right about the middle. Frankly, that didn't seem that hard.


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## sudsy9977 (May 26, 2011)

no offense to bob or his knives but i've seen some experienced cutters cut stuff with some pretty dull knives.....no where near as sharp as they would be normally.....it all depends if you know what you're doing or not....ryan


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## Cnimativ (May 27, 2011)

rockbox said:


> He did that with a Zwilling. Not bad.


 
That's on a different steel and manufactured in Japan?


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## JohnnyChance (May 27, 2011)

Cnimativ said:


> That's on a different steel and manufactured in Japan?


 
Different Steel than the Shun line. The new Zwilling JA Henckel line is 52100 like Bob uses for his straight carbon blades.


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## JohnnyChance (May 27, 2011)

stereo.pete said:


> Today I found this blurb and video of Kramer on Grubstreet.com, and figured this would be the right place to share.
> 
> http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2011/05/see_video_of_a_knife_that_can.html
> 
> Does anyone want to do the can test on their knives  ?


 
I like his "rock wall" analogy for explaining carbide size to people who arent as obsessed as us. And is that Bob at the end of the video going "Soooooo smoooooth!"?


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## bieniek (May 27, 2011)

That is one hell of a testing for kitchen knife. 
I dont know how many of you are cooking stew out of coke cans or water bottles but i never did...
I understand that swede wouldnt be so effective on video but you cannot know unless you sell your house and buy a Kramer!


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## JohnnyChance (May 27, 2011)

bieniek said:


> I dont know how many of you are cooking stew out of coke cans or water bottles but i never did...


 
"Beer Can Chicken" is actually a fairly common recipe over here in some places.

Water bottles are a common obstacle in most bladesport competitions.

And I am sure the people shooting the video asked for visual impressive things to film. Most people do not enjoy slow motion tomato cuts as we do here.


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## stereo.pete (May 27, 2011)

JohnnyChance said:


> "Beer Can Chicken" is actually a fairly common recipe over here in some places.
> 
> Water bottles are a common obstacle in most bladesport competitions.
> 
> And I am sure the people shooting the video asked for visual impressive things to film. Most people do not enjoy slow motion tomato cuts as we do here.



Yes, we are a unique bunch of people who drool over slow mo tomato videos  .


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## Michael Rader (May 27, 2011)

Some comments about the ABS test and I don't know what Murray did, but I tested with a regular "bowie" type knife for the performance version. For my five "presentation" knives I submitted a big Chef and two of the mastersmith judges I had said this, "...was the first kitchen knife ever submitted for the mastersmith test." Not sure if that's actually true or not. Here is a pic. (I don't remember if I had showed you guys this one yet.) 







-M


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## sudsy9977 (May 27, 2011)

michael...i would venture to guess that most matersmiths would not recognize a deba and yanagi as what they are.....either that or the ones u had for your test didn't see murray's knives......

there is apic ofmurray's knivessomewhere-gotta see if i can find it....ryan


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## bieniek (May 27, 2011)

JohnnyChance said:


> Water bottles are a common obstacle in most bladesport competitions.


 
Yeah, looks cool. But whats that testing in kitchen knife? 
I heard some are preparing "canned beans", but i would get truly impressed if he cut the coke can other way down


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## Michael Rader (May 27, 2011)

Hey Ryan. I'd love to see some pics of Murray's MS test knives. 
-M


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## sudsy9977 (May 27, 2011)

i'll see if i can find the pic....i don't think i have it anymore.....it was on the cover of one of his catalogues if anyone has an old one....ryan


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## JohnnyChance (May 27, 2011)

bieniek said:


> Yeah, looks cool. But whats that testing in kitchen knife?
> I heard some are preparing "canned beans", but i would get truly impressed if he cut the coke can other way down


 
Dude, I just said it was something to look nice on camera. I didnt claim it was the be-all end-all test for finding the best kitchen knife.


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## bieniek (May 28, 2011)

Dude, I am seriously trying to figure out why somebody like Kramer would do that. And check what? Stability, heat treatment? 
If its a test in bladesports, it has to prove something. What? 
What do you think would look that test with half-emptied bottle?


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## Noodle Soup (May 28, 2011)

I guess my memory of my conversation with Murray was not a 100% accurate. He sent me the following e-mail. 

_I did submit two kitchen knives for ABS master smith testing, but not for the destructive test, but rather for the fit, finish and symmetry part of the test.

The blade I used for performance testing was a san-mai style blade of about 250 layers of mild steel, 1025, and nickel sheet on the outsides and about 180 layers of white steel #2 and blue steel #2 for the cutting core.

I tested with Bill Moran in front of a crowd of spectators at the Blade Show in 2000, and I got the MS rating in 2001.

Sincerely,

Murray Carter
ABS Master Bladesmith
17th Generation Yoshimoto Bladesmith
22097 NW West Union Rd
Hillsboro, OR, 97124
www.cartercutlery.com_


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## Michael Rader (May 28, 2011)

Very cool. I guess they either didn't remember or know about Murray's knives. It's all good, now I can stop telling people I was the first MS to test with a kitchen knife. Not that exiting of a 'brag' anyway  Still love to see some pics of those knives though...
-M


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## rockbox (May 28, 2011)

I would love to see a no compromise knife from Murray. He's more a volume maker unlike you guys, so most of the knives from him that I have seen have been made with time in mind.


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## watercrawl (May 28, 2011)

There was a yanagi Carter made a few years back. A guy on KF commissioned it. It was Damascus haganr and Damascus jigane. I would consider it a no compromise knife if ever there was one. I can't recall why or what, but I and several others saw a few really bad things on it. Pictures only, so it could have been an illusion, but doubtful. 

Now, Warrens knife set is pretty close to flawless.


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## Marko Tsourkan (May 28, 2011)

Higher-end Carters can be of good quality, but not guaranteed (in contrast with Kramer knives). Here is an example of a fairly good quality yanagi from Carter but with a less than a top-noth finish:
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/861031/tp/1/

Lower-end Carters that I have seen in person, had decent grind but outright mediocre fit and finish. San Mai cladding could be uneven and hagane exposed too much. I agree with Tom that these are production pieces made with time in mind. Also, his heat treat might be adequate, but not ideal, as from what I have read (never owned or sharpened a Carter), his knives form a lot of burr during sharpening. Burr is typically an indication of retained austenites or large size carbides - less than ideal heat treatment or choice of steel. 

I guess, Carter subscribes to the same philosophy many Japanese smiths do - production oriented, adequate (not ideal) heat treatment, in other words, knives are made for adequate performance but with the least effort. The performance aspect comes from a knife's ability to take a keen edge. Edge retention, edge stability and edge toughness are secondary. 
M


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## sudsy9977 (May 28, 2011)

hmmm.....never owned or sharpened a carter but his heat treatment is not ideal?.....yeah i see you say " from what i have read".....but that doesn't really seem fair to say.....i have owned many many carters.....from all of his series actually.....i am not saying murray's knives are the best out there....but in terms of performance i would put it up against anything else out there.....especially his outdour knives.....ryan

p.s.-maybe whoever said that needs to work on their sharpening a little


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## Marko Tsourkan (May 28, 2011)

sudsy9977 said:


> hmmm.....never owned or sharpened a carter but his heat treatment is not ideal?.....yeah i see you say " from what i have read".....but that doesn't really seem fair to say.....i have owned many many carters.....from all of his series actually.....i am not saying murray's knives are the best out there....but in terms of performance i would put it up against anything else out there.....especially his outdour knives.....ryan
> 
> p.s.-maybe whoever said that needs to work on their sharpening a little


 
I was referring to never-ending posts on burr and wire edge removal. Both have to do with not ideal heat treatment. A well heat treated knife will have little of that but it will also depend what steel is used. 

Most Japanese knives I have owned, developed burr and wire edge during sharpening and require a lot of work have those removed. 

If I am not mistaken, the knife Carter sent for sharpening competition had a wire edge, though it was the sharpest of all. 

I think the point I am making here, is to put personal favoritism aside and report things as they are, with their pros and cons. 

I think bringing outdoors knives into kitchen knife mix is irrelevant - different use and geometry.

M

PS: to be fair to Carter, his knives have pretty good geometry and ground to perform.


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