# what stone do I need besides 1000 grit



## Ceriano (Apr 1, 2021)

What other stones do I need beside 1200 grit and a strop? 2K and 5K?


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## Mr.Wizard (Apr 1, 2021)

Are all the knives you will work on in good condition with established geometry, or will you need to repair, re-bevel, or thin some of them?


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## Nemo (Apr 1, 2021)

You don't NEED any stone other than a medium (circa 1k) stone for Japanese knives.

A method of flattening is highly desirable, especially for an inexperienced sharpener. There are many options but IMO, diamond plates take all of the complexity out of it. I use the handled Atoma 140. The handle makes it very easy to flatten stones (it does preclude using it as a coarse stone, but there are better options for coarse stones IMO).

If your knife is not sharp off 1k, you will not make it sharper with a fine stone. Once you can make a good edge and deburr well on a medium stone, you may want to invest in a fine (circa 2-5k) stone. This has the benefit of allowing you to touch up the edge without removing much metal if the edge is only slightly dull.

You will really only need a finer stone than this for a yanagiba, to show off, or to sharpen a razor.

You will need a coarse (400-600) stone if you will be sharpening Western stainless, if you will be repairing heavily damaged edges or for thinning.

You may want an even coarser stone (or sandpaper) to do heavier duty thinning.


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## Ceriano (Apr 1, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> Are all the knives you will work on in good condition with established geometry, or will you need to repair, re-bevel, or thin some of them?


Yes they are brand new.


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## Ceriano (Apr 1, 2021)

Nemo said:


> You don't NEED any stone other than a medium (circa 1k) stone for Japanese knives.
> 
> A method of flattening is highly desirable, especially for an inexperienced sharpener. There are many options but IMO, diamond plates take all of the complexity out of it. I use the handled Atoma 140. The handle makes it very easy to flatten stones (it does preclude using it as a coarse stone, but there are better options for coarse stones IMO).
> 
> ...


Should I start with a 2000 or 5000 on a new knife? or wait until it gets really dull.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 1, 2021)

I always preach going coarser before going finer. A coarse edge can still cut and be quite sharp. So, with a coarser stone, you have the ability to do repairs, thin, set bevels etc. rather quickly and still have the medium stone to provide a good serviceable edge. I think that gives more versatility than a fine stone when starting out.

There's only about a billion options for stones though so I would recommend getting maybe just one to start and see if you like the line and the features.


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## Nemo (Apr 2, 2021)

Ceriano said:


> Should I start with a 2000 or 5000 on a new knife? or wait until it gets really dull.


It depends

Form some knives, a basic factory edge comes with fatigued steel. This should be removed and replaced with a new edge. I'd use a medium stome for this.

If the knife came from a vendor who put on a nice edge, by all means touch it up with a fine stone. Anywhere from 3 to 5 or 6k. Personal preference. Or even whichever stone it's easy to lay your mitts on.

Keep doing these fime stone touch-ups as required until you can no longer generate a burr with just a few (maybe 5-10) strokes. Then drop down to a medium stone. Consider doing some maintennence thinning whenever you drop down to a medium stone.

Do not let your knife get really dull.


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## IsoJ (Apr 2, 2021)

Pretty much what @Nemo said. I would get Atoma 140 for lapping your 1,2k stone, after that depending what knives you have, If more western, I would get 300-600grit stone which works for thinning too with J-knives. If more Japanese knives, I would get 3-6k grit before course one. You don't need to pay for strop, whatever you find at home, cardboard, cerealboxes, old leather, denim, felt etc will work.


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## Bart.s (Apr 2, 2021)

+1 Perhaps add a ~220 stone, for heavy thinning/repair work


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## cotedupy (Apr 2, 2021)

^ What others have said!

Especially if your 1.2k is a King Deluxe. If I hadn't become obsessed with the whole stone nonsense I could quite happily do all my sharpening on just that.

Though yeah - a diamond plate would probably be my next step. Flattening on sandpaper sucks.

And for another coarse grit rec - I have a cheap combi Norton oilstone I quite like. Feels shite, but works a dream.


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## Fynbo (Apr 2, 2021)

If your knives are made from stainless steel, no need for a higher grid stone than what you already have. For carbon knives 3k and up will benefit you. How high you need to go depends on your own preference on bite vs refinement.


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## KingShapton (Apr 2, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Especially if your 1.2k is a King Deluxe. If I hadn't become obsessed with the whole stone nonsense I could quite happily just do all my sharpening on


The beauty in simplicity.

"Master the 1000" also means understanding and using the full potential of a 1000. Finer stones and higher grits do not automatically mean higher sharpness....


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## Ceriano (Apr 2, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> The beauty in simplicity.
> 
> "Master the 1000" also means understanding and using the full potential of a 1000. Finer stones and higher grits do not automatically mean higher sharpness....


I ordered two Mazaki‘s. I think I’d try maintaining them with a finer stone and a strop and try to learn sharpening other knives on a 1200 grit. I do see benefit in honing a sharp knife on a finer stone. Others may disagree.
I get the whole point about learning to sharpen on a medium grit but I don’t see no reason why I’d attempt that on a brand new knife. At least not until I ”master the 1000”.


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## KingShapton (Apr 2, 2021)

I understand your point of view with the new Mazaki's.

In that case I would consider a 3K as a good compromise between refinement and bite / toothy. But my own preferences play a role, as others have already said - anything between 2K - 5K could be considered.


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## Ceriano (Apr 2, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> I understand your point of view with the new Mazaki's.
> 
> In that case I would consider a 3K as a good compromise between refinement and bite / toothy. But my own preferences play a role, as others have already said - anything between 2K - 5K could be considered.


 based on what I’ve gather so far these are the 3 most recommended stones. SP 1000, SP 2000 and SG 4000.


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## KingShapton (Apr 2, 2021)

Ceriano said:


> based on what I’ve gather so far these are the 3 most recommended stones. SP 1000, SP 2000 and SG 4000.


Look at my name ... how could I say something against Shapton ???  

Joking aside, the Shapton Glass 4K is a very good stone - provided you like hard stones.


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## Ceriano (Apr 2, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> Look at my name ... how could I say something against Shapton ???
> 
> Joking aside, the Shapton Glass 4K is a very good stone - provided you like hard stones.


haha the SP 2000 is on sale on Amazon I’ll probably grab that. SP1500 is much cheaper than 1000 I’m wondering why. It was marked down to $34 last week, I guess not many people buy that off Amazon.


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## KingShapton (Apr 2, 2021)

Oh man, not the first time that I think I'm living in the wrong country ..

I recently paid € 49 for the Shapton Pro 1500 in Germany.


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## Mr.Wizard (Apr 2, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Especially if your 1.2k is a King Deluxe. If I hadn't become obsessed with the whole stone nonsense I could quite happily do all my sharpening on just that.



I find that stone very slow. Are you extraordinarily patient or do you have some trick to make it faster?


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## KingShapton (Apr 2, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> I find that stone very slow. Are you extraordinarily patient or do you have some trick to make it faster?


The stone is not slow if handled correctly.

Soak it for at least 3 hours and work with little pressure, this way it works fine for me.


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## esoo (Apr 2, 2021)

A lot of things depend on technique.

I have a Shapton Pro 1K and find it good stone for setting up the higher grit. In comparing edges between the SG4K and a Suehiro Rika, I preferred the edges off the Rika - a bit toothier and more refined. I did this comparison using Toijro shirogami on a nakiri and santoku at the same time.

I also have a SG6K (it was on loan when I did the above comparison). I like the edges it leaves, I think more than the SG4K. It is fast and can do some heavy lifting - I used to work out a small deform I did in a Blue#2 blade (it went through a chicken rib bone). I used a fair amount of pressure but it removed the issue, as well as left a vary polished "slicey" edge. That edge was a dream, but I don't think most would use as much pressure as I did at that point.

Currently I'm playing with SP1000 > SP12000. Toothy but polished. I'm really liking it.


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## cotedupy (Apr 2, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> I find that stone very slow. Are you extraordinarily patient or do you have some trick to make it faster?



Funny you should mention... when I first got it I wasn't that enamoured, but some advice from a couple of people here completely transformed it for me.

And as KS has mentioned above, that advice was - soaking. Ideally permasoaking if you can. (Would be interested to hear if you feel it works as well as I do.)


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## cotedupy (Apr 2, 2021)

Ceriano said:


> I ordered two Mazaki‘s. I think I’d try maintaining them with a finer stone and a strop and try to learn sharpening other knives on a 1200 grit. I do see benefit in honing a sharp knife on a finer stone. Others may disagree.
> I get the whole point about learning to sharpen on a medium grit but I don’t see no reason why I’d attempt that on a brand new knife. At least not until I ”master the 1000”.



I think this is probably actually a very good point you make, and that a few of us might have not quite grasped the thinking behind your initial q. I imagine an SG4k or 6k might be a good choice for this.


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## AT5760 (Apr 2, 2021)

@cotedupy do you permasoak your KD 1200? I usually use a SP1k in that range, but pulled out the King this afternoon. Really liked it after about a 45 minute soak.


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## cotedupy (Apr 2, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> @cotedupy do you permasoak your KD 1200? I usually use a SP1k in that range, but pulled out the King this afternoon. Really liked it after about a 45 minute soak.



Yep... permasoaking / long soaking makes it a very different stone for me - I really like it now .

(That was a rec I got from @jwthaparc originally I think.)


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## jwthaparc (Apr 2, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Yep... permasoaking / long soaking makes it a very different stone it for me - I really like it now .
> 
> (That was a rec I got from @jwthaparc originally I think.)


Yeah, it totally changes the stone. I highly recommend permasoaking it if you already have one. That or just soaking it hours ahead of time. I find permasoaking more convenient though. Just change the water when you use it.


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## Delat (Apr 3, 2021)

Ceriano said:


> I ordered two Mazaki‘s. I think I’d try maintaining them with a finer stone and a strop and try to learn sharpening other knives on a 1200 grit. I do see benefit in honing a sharp knife on a finer stone. Others may disagree.
> I get the whole point about learning to sharpen on a medium grit but I don’t see no reason why I’d attempt that on a brand new knife. At least not until I ”master the 1000”.



I’ve basically been following your plan. I’ve been touching up up my newish Shiro Kamo R2 on the SG4k while practicing on other knives with the SG500 and SG1k. Recently I took my old Shun VG10 through the full 500-1000-4000 progression for the first time and realized now it’s sharper than my Kamo. So now I feel ready to take the Kamo to the 1k.

Don’t forget some sort of lapping plate for your stones. My SGs were close but not perfectly flat out of the box.


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## Lucien (Apr 3, 2021)

Nemo said:


> It depends
> 
> Form some knives, a basic factory edge comes with fatigued steel. This should be removed and replaced with a new edge. I'd use a medium stome for this.
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity, if I do touch-ups using fine stone often (let's say every couple of days for a home cook), doesn't it eliminate the need for sharpening on a medium stone?


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## Bart.s (Apr 3, 2021)

Lucien said:


> Out of curiosity, if I do touch-ups using fine stone often (let's say every couple of days for a home cook), doesn't it eliminate the need for sharpening on a medium stone?



You can maintain an edge for some time with a high grit stone, depends of course how often you use the knife. But I find after a dozen or so touch-ups the knife performance starts to suffer and that is when I sharpen on a medium grit.


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## Nemo (Apr 3, 2021)

Lucien said:


> Out of curiosity, if I do touch-ups using fine stone often (let's say every couple of days for a home cook), doesn't it eliminate the need for sharpening on a medium stone?


Not really. it will gradually become more difficult to raise a burr. Eventually, you will be unable to form a burr on a fine stone without a lot of effort/ time.

When you can't raise a burr easily (less than a dozen strokes), it is time to move to a coarser stone. And do some maintennence thinning.


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## KingShapton (Apr 3, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> You can maintain an edge for some time with a high grit stone, depends of course how often you use the knife. But I find after a dozen or so touch-ups the knife performance starts to suffer and that is when I sharpen on a medium grit.


You will notice that the time between touch-ups is getting shorter and shorter. At some point it will be time for a complete sharpening, starting with a medium stone and light thinning.


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## Lucien (Apr 3, 2021)

Nemo said:


> Not really. it will gradually become more difficult to raise a burr. Eventually, you will be unable to form a burr on a fine stone without a lot of effort/ time.
> 
> When you can't raise a burr easily (less than a dozen strokes), it is time to move to a coarser stone. And do some maintennence thinning.


Thank you for the explanation. I am not sure if my understanding is correct here - do you mean that over time, the micro bevel becomes less "micro", and with a bigger "micro" bevel, it is more difficult to remove enough steel using a fine stone, which is the reason why further thinning is required?


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## inferno (Apr 3, 2021)

i know a 1k is recommended as a first stone, but as soon as you get several stones i feel the 1k is not really needed anymore. 500/3k is good combo imo. then maybe a 220 and a high grit like 6-8k when those are needed.


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## stringer (Apr 3, 2021)

Lucien said:


> Thank you for the explanation. I am not sure if my understanding is correct here - do you mean that over time, the micro bevel becomes less "micro", and with a bigger "micro" bevel, it is more difficult to remove enough steel using a fine stone, which is the reason why further thinning is required?



Yes that is part of it. I stole this image from @Benuser. Sharpening without thinning will lead to a progressively thicker knife over time. This change in blade geometry can affect performance. This can take a dozen sharpening sessions to notice and then once it happens it's a pain to fix. 







But the other more immediate concern with touchups is that a fine stone does not cut fast enough to keep up with accumulated damage at the micro bevel level. So when you stop getting the same pick me up from your fine stone you drop down to a coarser stone to reset the cutting bevel with fresh steel.


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## Benuser (Apr 3, 2021)

Dear @stringer, I stole it myself.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 3, 2021)

inferno said:


> i know a 1k is recommended as a first stone, but as soon as you get several stones i feel the 1k is not really needed anymore. 500/3k is good combo imo. then maybe a 220 and a high grit like 6-8k when those are needed.



Per a few recommendations, I skipped right over the 1k and went with SG500 and SG2k.


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## Ceriano (Apr 7, 2021)

stringer said:


> Yes that is part of it. I stole this image from @Benuser. Sharpening without thinning will lead to a progressively thicker knife over time. This change in blade geometry can affect performance. This can take a dozen sharpening sessions to notice and then once it happens it's a pain to fix.
> 
> View attachment 121124
> 
> ...



Hey I'm from RVA too!  Are there any good knife stores in the area?


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