# Because there's no such thing as too many coticules.



## PalmRoyale (Oct 21, 2016)

A beautiful La Veinette/BBW, natural combination, select, size 10 bout. It's on the softer side compared to other La Veinettes so it easily raises a slurry making it very fast. La Veinette is also one of the finest layers, if not the finest layer, mined by Ardennes Coticule so it's a superb finisher. I ended doing 20 very light strokes on each side of my straight razor and the edge this stone delivers is simply amazing. It's the best shave I've ever had. It's a wonderfully smooth, soft and highly enjoyable edge. My girlfriend uses my razor on her legs and she also says it's the best shave ever.


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## foody518 (Oct 21, 2016)

Very nice! Love seeing those natural combos. And wow I totally hadn't thought about non facial straight razor usage


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## Badgertooth (Oct 22, 2016)

Hey Palm, you obviously know your onions when it comes to coticules. With that in mind,could you recommend some that would be good for Japanese knives that aren't too hard or too fine? I'm fascinated but daunted by how little I know


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 22, 2016)

foody518 said:


> Very nice! Love seeing those natural combos. And wow I totally hadn't thought about non facial straight razor usage


I taught my girlfriend how yo use my straight razor and she refuses to use anything else on her legs. She likes it even better when I shave her legs followed by a light leg massage using some baby oil. After the first time she was like: "My legs look so good :biggrin: You know what this means, right?" :lol2:



Badgertooth said:


> Hey Palm, you obviously know your onions when it comes to coticules. With that in mind,could you recommend some that would be good for Japanese knives that aren't too hard or too fine? I'm fascinated but daunted by how little I know


There's so much variance between coticules, even from the same layer, that your best bet is to contact Ardennes Coticule and ask them for a medium hard stone for knives that's fast on water and even faster on slurry. Keep in mind though that coticules are expensive. This one cost me 185 or $203.


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## ynot1985 (Oct 22, 2016)

Is the stone you got special? I went to the site and 150 euro was the most expensive coticule listed


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## Smashmasta (Oct 22, 2016)

ynot1985 said:


> Is the stone you got special? I went to the site and 150 euro was the most expensive coticule listed



Same here. 

Palm, have you tried any of Ardennes slipstones or multiforms on anything?
In relation to jnats, what stones could the BB, coticule, and La Pyrennes replace?
Could you also comment on what the difference is between the La Pyrennes is vs the BB and coticule - they don't seem to comment on it too much? 
Thanks


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 22, 2016)

It was the price they wanted for the stone so that's what I paid. After trying it I thought it was well worth the money. It's faster and finer than my other La Veinette.

Regarding the other questions, I have no experience with a La Pyrenees, slipstone or multiform so I can't comment on it. I also have very little experience with jnats so I wouldn't how they compare to coticules and BB's. I can only tell you that I tried an Ohira Suita from Shinichi Watanabe and I have an unidentified very high grit jnat and they're both very slow compared to any of my coticules. What I do know is that I prefer a coticule. They're my favourite stones in the world.


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## Steampunk (Oct 22, 2016)

Smashmasta said:


> Same here.
> 
> Palm, have you tried any of Ardennes slipstones or multiforms on anything?
> In relation to jnats, what stones could the BB, coticule, and La Pyrennes replace?
> ...



Yes, La Veinettes are 'special veins'; these are more sought after by Coticule collectors than the stones they sell as standard, or select grade.

I don't know about Palmroyale, but I happen to have some Coti & BBW slipstones... What do you want to know about them?

Again, not Palmroyale, but I too am a Belgian stone user if you are interested in additional input... Coticules - for the most part - are more comparable to some of the lower-mid range (Not in quality, but in fineness spectrum) razor-grade J-nats; something between an 8-15K synth (Again, depending upon vein.) based upon scratch depth, but clearly with more particle size variance. The edges they have are still toothier than an equivalently fine man-made stone, but they are towards the smoother side of the spectrum for knife usage. They work really well for push-cutters like razors or chisels/plane irons, and possibly also for certain single bevel knives that require that smoother, sharper edge type. Also, if you are the kind of person that prefers finishing your knives on very fine razor-grade finishing stones because you like that type of edge, this is more the level you will want to look at with the Belgian stones.

BBW's are classified as 'razor pre-finishers' (~4-8K synth equiv. maxed out depending upon stone), and - for me, at least - fall in a more useful range for most kitchen knives. A number of the J-nat finishers preferred by kitchen knife enthusiasts fall into this similar range. They have a lower quantity of slightly larger garnets than Coti's, which means they cut a little bit slower (Most aren't super slow, though.), and leave a toothier edge that trades some push-cutting performance for extra slicing performance vs. Coti's. I really, really like these stones as finishers for Gyuto. 

La Pyrennes are not related geologically to Coti's/BBW's, and are not mined by Ardennes, but by a small company in France. They are a slate/sandstone mix, and - technically speaking - are more towards the Amakusa/Binsui end of the spectrum out of the box. However, most of their cutting power comes from the strange, wood-grain like surface finish that is created on them after the stones are cut. Basically, it acts like a file, and they respond best to a sweeping sharpening stroke as a result rather than the Japanese sectional style. If you flatten them, and remove that texture, smoothing out the stone, they cut and finish more like a slow 4-5K stone like a Hard Arkansas. You would have to finish them with a 24-36 grit SiC stone or something to approximate the way they act out of the factory; there is a video online of how they are made, showing that they are rough-finished and then slurry tumbled to achieve that texture. They also don't cut highly-alloyed or hard steels as well as Coti's, and are best on softer, simpler alloys. However, I really like them as a finisher for western knives with the factory lapping; fantastically toothy, but still hair-shaving sharp edge on soft SS or carbon. Really neat edge to cut with, but maybe not great for J-knives. For those, stick to the coarser J-Nats or synths. 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 22, 2016)

Steampunk said:


> Yes, La Veinettes are 'special veins'; these are more sought after by Coticule collectors than the stones they sell as standard, or select grade.


Actually, the name La Veinette isn't used to describe stones from special veins. La Veinette is a layer on its own just like La Dressante, La Nouvelle Vein or La Grise. The name also has no bearing on select or standard grade. My other La Veinette is a standard grade stone, this means it has some inclusions in it that do not affect sharpening. The difference between select and standard grade is purely aesthetic. What makes La Veinette special compared to other veins is its consistency in both speed and finesse. La Dressante for example has stones that vary wildly in both.


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## Steampunk (Oct 22, 2016)

PalmRoyale said:


> Actually, the name La Veinette isn't used to describe stones from special veins. La Veinette is a layer on its own just like La Dressante, La Nouvelle Vein or La Grise. The name also has no bearing on select or standard grade. My other La Veinette is a standard grade stone, this means it has some inclusions in it that do not affect sharpening. The difference between select and standard grade is purely aesthetic. What makes La Veinette special compared to other veins is its consistency in both speed and finesse. La Dressante for example has stones that vary wildly in both.



This, I know... I should have said "One of the special veins", as this was my intended meaning, but I was inadequately specific. I own multiple different veins, including La Veinette & La Dressante, as well as a few others. I have a La Verte that is exceptionally hard and fine; slow and glassy feeling on water, but a powerful cutter on slurry. The standard and select grade stones currently being sold are mostly La Grise and La Vein Rouge de Regne [LVRR], which are perfectly acceptable examples of Coticule, but not as good as some of the more unique veins we are discussing in my opinion. 

In terms of the standard grade having inclusions which do not effect sharpening, I am not so sure of this. Some may be superficial, but some can effect performance. I have a long crack in one of my standard grade stones that fills with slurry, and leaves some pretty deep scratches in my bevels unless used exclusively on water; I have never seen an inclusion like this on a select grade stone. 

I neglected to congratulate you on your new natural combo; nice purchase!  Are you going to put the BBW side to use? I often find the BBW's on natural combos to be some of the best examples of the Blue's. 

Again, my apologies if I created any confusion.

- Steampunk


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 22, 2016)

I've tried the BBW side and it performs very well. This doesn't surprise me since the BBW side is always strongly tied to the coticule side in terms of garnet count and size. It's also not as hard as other BBW's I know, it releases a slurry easier.


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## Steampunk (Oct 22, 2016)

PalmRoyale said:


> It's also not as hard as other BBW's I know, it releases a slurry easier.



This tends to be my experience... Often, they are a little softer, and can auto-slurry when they are this close to the Coti layer. I really like these for finishing knives. 

- Steampunk


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 28, 2016)

I got some more information about why a La Veinette is so expensive and it's very simple really. They can only mine this vein once every few years and demand for it is high so the price goes up.


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