# Best next step after 1000



## jljohn (Dec 4, 2016)

Hi all,

I've been honing my sharpening skills (sorry) on a three-stone Naniwa Chosera set made up of a 400, a 1000, and a 3000. I've been using the 400 to fix chips and reset bevels, and the 1000 is my primary sharpening stone for both stainless and carbon. Then I strop on the 3000. I've been wondering if maybe the 3000 isn't fine enough, or maybe it's ok for the stainless but not fine enough for carbon. Thoughts? Would I be better with a 5000 and jump all knives from 1000 to 5000, or should I finish the German stainless on the 3000 and get a 5000 for White and Blue steels? Thanks!


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## panda (Dec 4, 2016)

chosera 3k is more than fine enough for kitchen knives. keep practicing!


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## Krassi (Dec 4, 2016)

Hiho!
for a soft German stainless 3k is more than enough. anything more will do nothing (or the sharpness will be gone after one carrot)
I get full cancer with those from my mom.. and more grit than mentioned is just not needed. 
A good 1000 Grind is the nore important and everything beyond is more fun stuff 
So advancing in technique will help a lot , so keep practicing !


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## bennyprofane (Dec 4, 2016)

You can go finer for White and Blue steels but that is a question of taste, panda prefers coarser (but with jnats), I like to go finer (also with jnats) but a 5000 or 6000 can be nice for those carbon blades to find out what you like.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 4, 2016)

And some razor paste and balsa are cheap to try too


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## Benuser (Dec 4, 2016)

My soft Germans never see the Chosera 3k except for deburr sometimes. I strop and deburr on the 800 after sharpening on the 400, and tend to finish by deburring without stropping, usually with a 2k. 
What you should avoid is a polished edge that will only weaken the soft matrix and cause the carbides to break out.
With soft carbons though, you may go as far as you like. No big chromium carbides here.


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## jaknil (Dec 4, 2016)

JNS 6000


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 4, 2016)

@Benuser this makes it ironic that Wusthoff sells a #8000 (of which I still think it doesn't really suck ... hard-bound and aggressive for the grit). While I trust you about that carbide breakout at fine polish thing, references for further reading? Also, why are steels like Ginsan or maybe even VG-1 (both full of chromium but not much else as alloying elements) considered more "sharp-edge-suitable" than the german "throw the whole periodic table into the pot just in case it helps" steels?


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## Benuser (Dec 4, 2016)

Just to add: I have the Chosera 5k, and don't use it much. Much softer than the other ones, and lacking any response. I just have to guess whether it has catched some burr remainings or not. I prefer after the 2 or 3k the Naniwa Junpaku 8k, much harder, and not too expensive.
But not to be used with Krupp's 4116!


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## Benuser (Dec 4, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Benuser this makes it ironic that Wusthoff sells a #8000 (of which I still think it doesn't really suck ... hard-bound and aggressive for the grit). While I trust you about that carbide breakout at fine polish thing, references for further reading? Also, why are steels like Ginsan or maybe even VG-1 (both full of chromium but not much else as alloying elements) considered more "sharp-edge-suitable" than the german "throw the whole periodic table into the pot just in case it helps" steels?



With other stainless with large chromium carbides a further polishing seems to be less critical. Think Gin-3 or 13C26. But in these case the matrix is not as weak as with 4116.
No, no references here. Just my little experience, but no scientific pretention either. 
Just prefer to maintain basic characteristics when sharpening. IMHO it makes sense to polish finely grained stuff, and to keep rougher somewhat coarser material. Both may benefit from very fine daily maintenance, like newspaper or leather stropping, though. Am I clear?


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## Krassi (Dec 4, 2016)

well right.
even 1k is bazillion times higher grit than they use in Solingen (the place most of the german factory stainless knifes are made.. and as far as i know most use the same steel from one supplier if its not a special one.. they even get half ready stamped blades from another suplier thats specialiced in that .. sorry dondt know the names right now but learned about it from a owner of güde knifes on a awesome knife exibition in silingen with all solingen knife manufacturers)

with Ashis (should be 13c26 or i dondt know wich number it was) i finish wit a ohira suita nad its working very good.. 
the standard solingen stuff is very soft and will not keep anything beyond 1k.. yeah i live 20kilometers away from solingen  and unless its not carbon i would never use anything from there again.

so concentrate on a good 1k finish and then stroping like Benuser describes.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 4, 2016)

Sure that these Solingers don't use abrasives specified in western grit numbers (which tend to be finer in the higher numbers compared to JIS grits)?


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## Benuser (Dec 4, 2016)

Wüsthof is very clear about the used grit system. J8000 corresponds to F2000. http://www.wusthof.com/care-and-sharpening/whetstones
J means JIS, the Japanese standard. F means FEPA, the European federation of abrasives' producers.
The Wüsthof 8000-stone is indeed a very fine one.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 4, 2016)

That question was about the solingen knifemakers and what they use in production.

The Wusthof 8000: You can have it full of swarf (from an already roughly deburred knife) within 10 or 20 strokes... so I would call it "rather aggressive" for a polishing grit


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## Krassi (Dec 4, 2016)

Ehhh well i saw Nesmuk knifes today and they say that they are good.. well marketing 

Ehm most wüsthoffs are CroMo crap steel.. well the same as mentioned as most Companys in Solingen use.. Zwilling, Wusthof, Herder, if its Chro mo its mostly all the same from the same supplier.
This steel with a J8000? .. well this sharpness lasts for a fart 
Seems like the wonders of marketing to me!


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## Benuser (Dec 4, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> That question was about the solingen knifemakers and what they use in production.
> 
> The Wusthof 8000: You can have it full of swarf (from an already roughly deburred knife) within 10 or 20 strokes... so I would call it "rather aggressive" for a polishing grit



No Sir, you asked whether the Solingen guys use another grit system. Indeed, they used to. The FEPA.


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## Benuser (Dec 4, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Sure that these Solingers don't use abrasives specified in western grit numbers (which tend to be finer in the higher numbers compared to JIS grits)?



Just to recall


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## Benuser (Dec 4, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> The Wusthof 8000: You can have it full of swarf (from an already roughly deburred knife) within 10 or 20 strokes... so I would call it "rather aggressive" for a polishing grit


I don't understand what you're aiming at with all these strokes on a "roughly deburred" edge. The right moment to go on a finer stone is when you can't reduce the burr anyfurther, you just flip it without getting it any smaller.


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## daveb (Dec 4, 2016)

Krassi said:


> .. well this sharpness lasts for a fart



Quip of the day!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 4, 2016)

I said you can, not that you should  Comparing to, say, a King 6000 makes the W stone look more like King 810  - for better or worse.

Mentioned "roughly deburred" to mean "not just burr swarf".

And Krassi was mentioning the grits used in solingen knife production, and I wondered whether he might have seen FEPA labelled kit being used, giving the impression of rougher grits than actually used.

@Krassi I love your description of German edge retention  Handmesser mit Musik, so to say...


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## turbochef422 (Dec 4, 2016)

I finish my gyutos on a 3k I feel it's the best all around edge for the kitchen. Butcher knives I finish on an 800 then strop on loaded felt. Good technique is all you need.


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## Badgertooth (Dec 4, 2016)

I'm a huge Chosera fan but somehow the 5K feels like the bastard redhead brother. Get a Suehiro Rika 5K if you wanna go finer on carbon. No point on German stainless. And props to Krassi, that quip is unimprovable


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## Krassi (Dec 5, 2016)

@hiho 
glad you like my descriptions!  but its hitting the fist on the eye with karate ehmm .. well its sad but those Solingen standard things are robust like tanks but you cant expect a carbon sharpness that lasts.


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## jljohn (Dec 5, 2016)

Thank you for the replies. Maybe I'll just stop on 1000 with the German knives and progress to the 3000 with the J-Knives and keep focusing on technique. I had read rather poor reports of the Cholera 5000, and I do like the feel and feedback of the 3000, so I'll stay there for now. When the time comes, maybe I'll just make the transition to natural stones.


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## K813zra (Dec 5, 2016)

jljohn said:


> Thank you for the replies. Maybe I'll just stop on 1000 with the German knives and progress to the 3000 with the J-Knives and keep focusing on technique. I had read rather poor reports of the Cholera 5000, and I do like the feel and feedback of the 3000, so I'll stay there for now. When the time comes, maybe I'll just make the transition to natural stones.



I don't find anything wrong with the Chosera 5000 but it is the oddity in the lineup. Much the opposite of the 3000 as it is a fair bit softer. My one two punch on softer Euro SS is shapton 320 followed by shapton 1500.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 5, 2016)

Well, tanks are known great tools for getting whatever you want in pieces, but not the best choice if you want appetizing pieces....


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## K813zra (Dec 5, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Well, tanks are known great tools for getting whatever you want in pieces, but not the best choice if you want appetizing pieces....



But it sure would be fun.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 5, 2016)

If that is ever considered valid technique, people will soon start complaining about german tanks being so boring...


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## Benuser (Dec 5, 2016)

A few remarks. The Victorinox stamped ones, made of the same Krupp's 4116, are much more coarse-grained. 
Excellent carbon knives can still be obtained from Robert Herder, Solingen. Especially their 1922 series come to mind: tradionally forged, almost a French profile. Thin like hell. Much better grinding than with the French counterparts, and the basic carbon steel @60Rc.


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## Krassi (Dec 5, 2016)

YEp! @Benuser
The Herder 1922 is considered the best factory produced Carbon Knife you can get in Germany (By german language knife maniacs from germany).
+1 of doom


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## Nemo (Dec 5, 2016)

Benuser said:


> A few remarks. The Victorinox stamped ones, made of the same Krupp's 4116, are much more coarse-grained.


Interesting. Is this due to the HT or the lack of forging? Or is it hard to say one way or the other?
I assume this is comparing Victorinox to knives to Wusthof?


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## Benuser (Dec 5, 2016)

I just compare by sharpening stamped Victors, and forged Wüsthofs and Zwillings. But the difference is obvious.


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## Nemo (Dec 5, 2016)

Benuser said:


> I just compare by sharpening stamped Victors, and forged Wüsthofs and Zwillings. But the difference is obvious.



As always, Benuser, your experience is instructive. Thanks.


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## Benuser (Dec 5, 2016)

Thank you, Nemo, you're most welcome, but I can't offer any other information than my little experience, and have no scientific explanation.


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## Nemo (Dec 5, 2016)

Benuser said:


> Thank you, Nemo, you're most welcome, but I can't offer any other information than my little experience, and have no scientific explanation.



From my (amareur enthusiast, not a professional metallurgist) reading, the forging process elongates the grains and breaks the grain boundries, and this is one way of refining the grain size (another way is cyling the temp above and below the Austeitasion temp at the start of the heat treat).

As always, I'm happy for anyone who knows better to correct me.


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