# Drinking the Takeda kool aid



## milkbaby (Sep 8, 2016)

It seems in the short time I've been interested in kitchen knives, I've caught the collecting bug. As in collecting more knives than I realistically need for cooking in my home kitchen. But it's all a bit of fun.

I've been thinking of getting a Takeda gyuto AS (non-stainless clad) because it really stands out as it's own thing with the profile and the grind. And it sounds like they are switching to only offering the stainless clad knives? Is there a particular difference in the profiles for the small 210 versus medium 240 gyutos? Or are they all just going to be whatever size and shape they came out on that day?

Bonus question: Am I just being stupid?


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## brainsausage (Sep 9, 2016)

milkbaby said:


> It seems in the short time I've been interested in kitchen knives, I've caught the collecting bug. As in collecting more knives than I realistically need for cooking in my home kitchen. But it's all a bit of fun.
> 
> I've been thinking of getting a Takeda gyuto AS (non-stainless clad) because it really stands out as it's own thing with the profile and the grind. And it sounds like they are switching to only offering the stainless clad knives? Is there a particular difference in the profiles for the small 210 versus medium 240 gyutos? Or are they all just going to be whatever size and shape they came out on that day?
> 
> Bonus question: Am I just being stupid?



The qualitative nature of collecting is a very nuanced and complicated subject. Regarding the Takeda factor, I'd ask why you gravitate towards the AS, and what signifies a proper specimen, and weigh that against just how much you really want one based on price and availability. If you're actually planning on using said knife; that's a whole other conversation.


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## milkbaby (Sep 9, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> The qualitative nature of collecting is a very nuanced and complicated subject. Regarding the Takeda factor, I'd ask why you gravitate towards the AS, and what signifies a proper specimen, and weigh that against just how much you really want one based on price and availability. If you're actually planning on using said knife; that's a whole other conversation.



Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think the Takeda "mystique" is alluring; both the reputation for how it cuts and the seemingly major divide in opinion on his knives. And I find them very interesting aesthetically, both the rustic finish, iconoclastic sizing of his gyutos, and the grind.

And yes, one thing that really appeals to me about collecting knives is that they are useful. A painting is useful as decor but that utility is not on the same active level as using a knife. And I find it interesting how different knives perform; that's part of why I am interested in Takeda.

I suppose the best way to pick one out is in person, but I don't have that luxury where i live. I can only go off pictures and perhaps some education from the knife enthusiasts here on the forum.


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## brainsausage (Sep 9, 2016)

milkbaby said:


> Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think the Takeda "mystique" is alluring; both the reputation for how it cuts and the seemingly major divide in opinion on his knives. And I find them very interesting aesthetically, both the rustic finish, iconoclastic sizing of his gyutos, and the grind.
> 
> And yes, one thing that really appeals to me about collecting knives is that they are useful. A painting is useful as decor but that utility is not on the same active level as using a knife. And I find it interesting how different knives perform; that's part of why I am interested in Takeda.
> 
> I suppose the best way to pick one out is in person, but I don't have that luxury where i live. I can only go off pictures and perhaps some education from the knife enthusiasts here on the forum.



Beyond the choice of steel, the biggest difference in his knives over the last 4 years or so are the grind. A turn for the worse in most people's opinions. I'm of the opinion that he's taken on too many apprentices, and the QC has dropped substantially. If you were to entertain this thought further, I'd suggest trying to find an older piece. Ordering custom is also a possibility, but based on some of the experiences I've read here on the forum, that may not neccessarily yield positive results.


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## cenc (Sep 10, 2016)

I have had a Takeda NAS Nakiri for just about a year now. It is a wonderful knife, and it is like a short-ish cleaver! My edge profile is fairly rounded though, so it tends to leave accordion cuts if you are chopping unfortunately. But on the other hand, it can push cut herbs and anything else, you can get the knife up pretty high without digging the tip into your board. 

The grind is good, but needs tuning and polishing. Apart from my Konosuke White #1 gyuto, the Takeda is my favorite knife to sharpen. It is so easy to sharpen, like butter on some of my stones, and takes a really nice mirror polish behind/on the edge with some jnats.

It is flexible! This can be a good thing if you want to correct the knife, but can be a bad thing if you are really putting some stress on the knife everyday. Same goes for any Takeda sizes, in my opinion.

Anyways, tldr;

LOVE THAT STEEL. grind is decent. Handle is GORGEOUS. Nice and light. Awesome chops. Hope the gyuto is just as fun.


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## sergeysus (Sep 11, 2016)

Im not a collector, but I use my Takeda in my home kitchen. I have 5 kitchen knives from various production times/dates and 4 friction folders (bichu no kami). I recently got a chuka (Chinese cleaver).

I can give you my opinion:

- other then they way a knife looks there is not much difference in performance of NAS vs classic. The classic or carbon clad knife requires more care. My gyuto seems to be the most reactive, you can see the yellowish cover in the photo. Bartenders friend and its all gone... I prefer the looks of the classic rustic look of kurouchi, but it does wear off.

- Aogami steel is really easy to sharpen and stays sharp. You dont have to worry about scratching the finish.... 

- non of my knives are wedge monsters people talk about. I keep reading about it and think that people expect them to be lasers and maybe some were. I have read that some are thick behind the edge - you can have it reground either by sending back to Takeda or one of the competent sharpeners on this forum. So, I never worried about it and got my knives used. The bunka that I have was purchased by original owner over 5 years ago and was thick behind the edge. He sent it back to Japan it came back very thin.

- even when you buy a new knife - it does not look 'new'. Takedas knives can take a lickin and keep on tickin. My friends and family think Im cazy for having so many knives and they have no clue as to what they cost. 

I got attracted to them for the rustic look, artistic difference with every knife he makes. I love the performance, in my humble old home kitchen and use them all the time.

My advice, if you are going to use them in your kitchen buy a used one for a decent price... use it if you like it keep it, too thick? then regrind. Collecting? they are not that rare although the price goes up every few years because of material and manufactoring costs not because of rarity. Im sure there are other knives worth collecting.


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## milkbaby (Sep 11, 2016)

Thank you all for the comments and information. I'm thinking that I'm getting close to rolling the dice and be willing to thin down a blade if I end up getting one that is to thick behind the primary bevel to perform acceptably well for me...

Thanks for sharing the cool picture, sergeysus. I'm definitely digging the rough rustic lived-in look to your Takeda knives.


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## DanHumphrey (Sep 11, 2016)

FYI, if you want a similar appearance to the Takedas (though in a more normal profile) for less, you can try the Syousin Chiku at K&S:

http://www.knivesandstones.com/syou...-aogami-super-stainless-cladding-by-kurosaki/

Similar rosewood handle, AS core, stainless KU cladding. It would still benefit from some thinning, as I understand... but it costs 40% less than the Takeda. And probably cuts at least as well. Do you want the profile, or the rest of the appearance? I wanted a Takeda (and still kinda do) but that's the direction I'd go for a "rustic" knife.


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## aboynamedsuita (Sep 11, 2016)

The kochi at JKI also pegs my cool meter


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## milkbaby (Sep 11, 2016)

Thanks for the heads up on the Kurosaki and Kochi, both looking pretty good. Kurosaki seems to be very popular and building a really good rep. And the geometry on the Kochi looks intriguing, like maybe an S grind though maybe that's just my eyes playing tricks. 

However, part of why I'm interested in the Takeda gyuto is the non-conformist height, shape, and geometry plus the reputation of the cutting performance. And personally, no other knife seems to have the look. Part of it is also wanting to personally experience the Takeda "mystique" as it were... Too bad I don't have a friend I can just hang out, cook with, and use their Takeda gyuto.


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## DanHumphrey (Sep 12, 2016)

Well then... pay the money and get the Takeda, and see how you like the performance. Sounds like there's no other option.


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## FISHORDIE (Sep 12, 2016)

Yo MB,

You are not being stupid. There is a difference between someone who decides to become a collector and keeps their purchases long term and those who are curious about a particular smith or product and are willing to resell the item in order to fund their next purchase. As several members of this and other sites have found the cost of curiosity with many well known or boutique smiths is the cost of ownership is very low or negligible as these particular assets retains the majority of it's value thus can be sold for most of what the owner paid for it + the time and cost of shipping to the new buyer. In your case, the Takeda name, based on member's highly touted favorability of the performance as well as the rather somewhat scarcity of availability (Usually only scarce at the time the user actually decides to buy one), makes the knife very affordable as the resale market has been very strong. Some may argue the AS version is not as strong on the resale market as the Carbon Steel version but I have no idea about that. 

The issue for me is my willingness to go through the machinations of purchase and resell in order to slack my thirst for first hand knowledge of the intricacies and viability in my own hands of a particular knife for which I am interested in. As you have seen on these boards one person's heaven made knife is another's devil made product. 

To put it in simpler terms, if you were a golfer you would spend X amount of dollars to hit balls at the driving range and then many times X to actually play a round of golf in order to up your game. The cost of improving your knowledge regarding certain popular or high end boutique knives is generally much less than the price of a round of golf while the cost of boxing and reselling the product takes much less time than that same round. Perhaps I am letting the cat out of the bag but it is this perspective that allows several of the members of these boards, who are kind enough to provide insight into each blade they purchase and then re-sell, to buy so many items. Heck, I would go so far as to say those who really know the great smiths may not ever post on these boards or discuss their favorite knives in order to keep the price and availability within reach but that is another subject all-together. 

If you are curious about any Takeda or other reasonably high demand knife then do a little research on the buy/sell portions of these sites, look at the resale prices being asked and the time it takes to sell in order to get an idea of what your possible financial down side is to the purchase. You might just find it is very inexpensive to slack your thirst for first hand knowledge. A Carbon Steel version of the more desirable versions of the Takeda knife which is in new or almost new condition sells for almost or the same amount as the original purchase price. Perhaps the AS might be a bit less but you can do your own research. However, I believe Stainless or Stainless clad products are finding their ways into more and more kitchens due to their normally easier maintenance programs yet knifes that are still incredibly functional.

In short, which I never am, if your are curious and are willing to risk losing just a little time and money should you decide not to keep the item, go out and buy the knife. Give yourself time to become more intimate with it in order to get a real feel for the knife. Find out for yourself if you can like a certain sharpening method perhaps not suggested by members here or perhaps you like exactly what they are recommending but if you do not act and spend a bit of time, you will never know for sure what you like and do not like. What works for you and what does not. Or assuage the itch that might be your on-going curiosity. These boards really stoke the curiosity virus. 

Again, in reality, owning high end or highly desirable knifes is really not a very expensive hobby. It is only when you start collecting and keeping most or all of the items that the price of entry can become very, very serious.

Best of luck in your decision.

Jamie


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## malexthekid (Sep 12, 2016)

[QUOTE/] The cost of improving your knowledge regarding certain popular or high end boutique knives is generally much less than the price of a round of golf while the cost of boxing and reselling the product takes much less time than that same round. 

Jamie[/QUOTE]

I really just want to know where you be playing a round of golf?.

Though sage advice for the most part.


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## chinacats (Sep 12, 2016)

Fish, you make sense but should point out that both styles of knife from Takeda are AS (aogami super)...one is iron clad (older style) while newer is stainless clad.

As to the golf, guess maybe he's including a new set of irons in the cost?


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## FISHORDIE (Sep 12, 2016)

LOL, Yes, I meant to note the Stainless clad version possibly would be slightly less as far as resale.... Heck, I cannot even blame spell check.

As far as a round of golf...Naw, the difference between a slightly used and great condition Takeda Gyuto, Nakiri or other desirable version and size compared to a new one, including shipping fees is probably well south of 100 dollars and may be more like 50 dollars. Even less when all the sites are out of stock. Other than my local municipal course this is less than a round of golf... and I walk. I am sure I can get at least what I paid for my old batch Takeda AS Nakiri.... But it ain't going anywhere. In this case it cost me less than the price of a great driver. 

Jamie


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## malexthekid (Sep 12, 2016)

Ahhh now i see your point. You weren't referring to purchase price but the potential lose if you were to flip it.

Makes more sense now.


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## Fedusa (Sep 13, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Beyond the choice of steel, the biggest difference in his knives over the last 4 years or so are the grind. A turn for the worse in most people's opinions. I'm of the opinion that he's taken on too many apprentices, and the QC has dropped substantially. If you were to entertain this thought further, I'd suggest trying to find an older piece. Ordering custom is also a possibility, but based on some of the experiences I've read here on the forum, that may not neccessarily yield positive results.



I hear a lot of talk about this here. Maybe he's just changed his philosophy?

Mine was purchased in 2014 and I don't think it has the "bad" grind on it.
From the handle and tip respectively:


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## chinacats (Sep 13, 2016)

Fedusa, that's an excellent example of a nicely ground Takeda. From my memory I'd suggest that the mid section of the knife may be a tad thicker than some of the earlier knives (and there's always been some variation) but if I thought I'd get one like that I'd be tempted to try another (mine was at least 3-4 years back).

My only other complaint was that I hated the handle...I found it way too small and I the big blob of glue.was just ugly. Meaning my cost would include a rehandle.


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## Fedusa (Sep 13, 2016)

That's too bad to hear, did you get a gyuto or something else?

After combing through some threads, it seems the kiritsukes weren't affected, but that was just anecdotal reference. Mine is a k-tip so it could explain why.

The blade did seem a bit wide at the shoulders but I assume that creates a bit of convex to aid in food release. I haven't noticed much wedging on it but also don't remember cutting carrots and potatoes a lot. I'll test it and report back.

The handle I don't mind, it suits the Japanese grip more though but would have to agree on the glue. In his defense, the knife has very utilitarian finishing vs that of a boutique collector's knife.


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## milkbaby (Sep 13, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> Well then... pay the money and get the Takeda, and see how you like the performance. Sounds like there's no other option.



Thank you for the very practical and commonsense advice! Half of the reason for starting this thread was to find enablers for my new habit. :laugh:





FISHORDIE said:


> In short, which I never am, if your are curious and are willing to risk losing just a little time and money should you decide not to keep the item, go out and buy the knife. Give yourself time to become more intimate with it in order to get a real feel for the knife. Find out for yourself if you can like a certain sharpening method perhaps not suggested by members here or perhaps you like exactly what they are recommending but if you do not act and spend a bit of time, you will never know for sure what you like and do not like. What works for you and what does not. Or assuage the itch that might be your on-going curiosity. These boards really stoke the curiosity virus.
> 
> Again, in reality, owning high end or highly desirable knifes is really not a very expensive hobby. It is only when you start collecting and keeping most or all of the items that the price of entry can become very, very serious.



Thank you for the thoughtful and rational reply, I really appreciate it! Scratching the itch of wanting to try many different knives is somewhat irrational for me especially since I'm not in a kitchen/cooking profession and only cook for fun. But it is nice to apply some rational thought into the whole endeavor as you have suggested. If I don't keep the knife, then I'll definitely look at the difference in my buying price versus selling price as the cost of entertainment, like greens fees as you suggest. :doublethumbsup:

Sadly, I'm pretty sure this will be an expensive hobby for me as I'm the kind of person who thinks I might use every tool in the shed eventually, so I keep around things I rarely use "just in case".




Fedusa said:


> I hear a lot of talk about this here. Maybe he's just changed his philosophy?
> 
> Mine was purchased in 2014 and I don't think it has the "bad" grind on it.
> From the handle and tip respectively:



Thanks for the photos, your knife looks better than some of the examples discussed in past threads. Have you been happy with the performance of the knife?


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## Fedusa (Sep 13, 2016)

Yea I have no qualms about it and like it overall. The fit and finish isn't exquisite but is purposeful and doesn't leave you feeling they cut corners. The handle is nicely sanded to a satin finish, not perfectly polished, and is long enough to maneuver the blade around with easily. The blade itself is light but solid and feels nimble in hand.
I've used it lightly on and off for about a year+ and have only touched it up yet can still push cut paper.

The only problem, and its a very personal one, is I never find myself reaching for it and actually _wanting_ to use it.

There's a gyuto in the BST right now if you want to pull the trigger. It doesn't have shoulders like mine but all the measurements match mine, 3mm at spine, 1 mm midway, 6-7mm bevel.


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## DanHumphrey (Sep 13, 2016)

milkbaby said:


> Thank you for the very practical and commonsense advice! Half of the reason for starting this thread was to find enablers for my new habit. :laugh:



You will find this site chock-full of enablers and good bad influences.


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## sergeysus (Sep 13, 2016)

Just going back to your original questions:

- have you figured out which gyuto size you are looking for? 210, 240 or 270?
- yes, Takeda is making iron clad knives as special order. Most of the new knives sold are NAS - stainless cladd aogami super. Not much performance difference between them.
- Takeda knives are not made from a template. They have some variences.


Just curious: how commited are you?


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## NO ChoP! (Sep 14, 2016)

The AS uses a very soft iron cladding, and the kurouchi doesnt provide even coverage. You will have to get used to an orange knife. Also, many examples of the gyuto profile are truly oversized santokus.


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## milkbaby (Sep 14, 2016)

Fedusa said:


> The only problem, and its a very personal one, is I never find myself reaching for it and actually _wanting_ to use it.
> 
> There's a gyuto in the BST right now if you want to pull the trigger. It doesn't have shoulders like mine but all the measurements match mine, 3mm at spine, 1 mm midway, 6-7mm bevel.



Thanks for your comments, I'm tempted to make you an offer on your knife. LOL

I was thinking about the one in BST but was bothered by a few things about the listing. Also, it's less than $50 difference between that one used and a new one from a retailer with a return policy.




sergeysus said:


> Just going back to your original questions:
> - have you figured out which gyuto size you are looking for? 210, 240 or 270?
> 
> Just curious: how commited are you?



I've pretty much settled on 240 though I saw a video of a 270 in use which looked cool, and I saw a listing for a 310(!) from a retailer...

I guess I should be committed to the asylum with all the other crazies because I just ordered one. Sadly, it also spurred me to pick up a 400 grit waterstone sooner than intended, just in case... :IMOK:


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## bennyprofane (Sep 14, 2016)

Is there any European retailer which sells them? And is there any price advantage or is it even possible to get it from the maker?


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## chinacats (Sep 14, 2016)

milkbaby said:


> I was thinking about the one in BST but was bothered by a few things about the listing. Also, it's less than $50 difference between that one used and a new one from a retailer with a return policy.



Just curious who the retailer is? Some are known to not be so honorable on the return policy when the time comes...

Either way, congrats on the knife...hope you get a good one.

BTW, the coarse stone may not be such a great idea unless you have a great plan/skills...can't really recreate the Takeda arrowhead with a stone and imo this is what people are after...best deal is you get a thickish arrow that you can relieve a bit.


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## milkbaby (Sep 14, 2016)

chinacats said:


> Just curious who the retailer is? Some are known to not be so honorable on the return policy when the time comes...
> 
> Either way, congrats on the knife...hope you get a good one.
> 
> BTW, the coarse stone may not be such a great idea unless you have a great plan/skills...can't really recreate the Takeda arrowhead with a stone and imo this is what people are after...best deal is you get a thickish arrow that you can relieve a bit.



It's the retailer non grata round these parts, I figured they have the largest stock and the return policy is stated on their website. It even says you don't need return authorization, just send back.

I asked for better pics from a different retailer and got blown off, and of course there was always the option to order directly from Takeda hamono. But I figure it's a crap shoot any way I go. Just crossing my fingers and waiting for the knife to arrive.


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## Fedusa (Sep 14, 2016)

Congrats on your new purchase!

Not sure if I mentioned this but mine is a kiritsuke which has a more traditional gyuto profile than the Takeda gyuto which looks taller and likely a bit heavier. 

I hope you like your knife.


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## milkbaby (Sep 15, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Is there any European retailer which sells them? And is there any price advantage or is it even possible to get it from the maker?



Hey benny, you can definitely order directly from Takeda-san. The english version of his website is: http://takedahamono.com/english/

He has a list of his retailers on the website too, but I haven't looked at it. I'm sure somebody in Europe is selling Takeda.

However, his pricing is the same as American retail prices.


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## sergeysus (Sep 19, 2016)

Did you get your new knife yet? Pics?


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## milkbaby (Sep 19, 2016)

Thanks for asking sergeysus! Yes I got the knife Saturday but didn't have the time to use it until today. However I was so taken by its looks that I already made a saya for it.



















As you can see from the choil pic, it does have a bit of a shoulder at the shinogi. However, it cut through potatoes and onions superbly with incredible food release. There was a bit of wedging on carrots. I did some A/B cutting comparing with the DT ITK, and the Takeda rules on potatoes whereas the DT wins at carrots.

The height is awesome, almost 66 mm. I'm totally smitten with the looks, and the patina after cutting onions was beautiful blue, purple, and yellow. The one off-putting thing was when I first held the knife, it was so light that it felt like a toy!


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## sergeysus (Sep 19, 2016)

Nice! I think the "shoulder" is there on many knives and there was a thread about this. I think its there for food release. 

Its not a laser, but a general purpose chefs knife and that it is! My 210mm Bunka is 1/2 the weight of 240mm guyoto and 1/2 thickness.... Now I just need a Takeda suji/yanagi. 

I would be curious to what you think after using it for a while.


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## Fedusa (Sep 19, 2016)

Very cool! Did you just use that little chisel in the back to make it? I really want to make a few for my knives.


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## milkbaby (Sep 19, 2016)

sergeysus said:


> Nice! I think the "shoulder" is there on many knives and there was a thread about this. I think its there for food release.
> Its not a laser, but a general purpose chefs knife and that it is! My 210mm Bunka is 1/2 the weight of 240mm guyoto and 1/2 thickness.... Now I just need a Takeda suji/yanagi.
> I would be curious to what you think after using it for a while.



It definitely has incredible food release, potatoes were absolutely no problem. The best food release of any of the knives I've used so far. I'm definitely planning to keep it the way it came for a while before I decide on thinning it or not. I think the speculation that some of the grinds are thicker is to keep hamfisted users from damaging the blade is possibly correct. This thing is sharp and light, I can definitely see that some users could very well abuse it. I really like it so far, call me a fan.





Fedusa said:


> Very cool! Did you just use that little chisel in the back to make it? I really want to make a few for my knives.



Thanks, and yes, I used the chisel to carefully cut out the space for the blade. This is my second homemade saya and is made out of basswood. Basswood is soft and often used for intricate wood carving by artists.

The first saya I made was out of balsa wood which is quite soft, so good for the blade, but somewhat flimsy feeling in the hand. Basswood has a little more heft and feels a lot more sturdy. I could've made a friction fit saya with the basswood, but I didn't want to possibly wear down the kurouchi finish from the contact. I have some pine and poplar wood that I got for future sayas, but I am going to have to sharpen the chisel because it took FOREVER to carve out the wood! I'm in an apartment right now so no garage to store power tools, so everything is done by hand tools except for using a power drill to make the pin hole. There was a LOT of hand sanding involved, oof! But the feeling of accomplishment is very rewarding, so I'll continue to make them myself.


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