# Ergonomics: what parameters makes a western handle 'good'?



## Luftmensch (Dec 20, 2019)

I am a sucker for the aesthetics of a knife with an integral bolster and full tang. The blend of steel, wood and curves can be gorgeous. But this has nothing to do with ergonomics. A geometrically simple piece of wood (wa handle) is perfectly functional (they serve me comfortably).

If you were designing a western handle from the ground up, what measures would you take to optimise the ergonomics*? And why? Measurements welcome (width, height, length, curves, etc...)

* I realise this interacts with hand size, grip and preference but there must be some profiles that could be optimised to fit some 'eigen hand' (low dimensional sub-space of 'handness').


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## lemeneid (Dec 20, 2019)

If you're going into ergonomics, then the only way to make the best western handle would be to take impressions of the hand. Kind of like how they take custom moulds of ears to make custom IEMs.


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## stringer (Dec 20, 2019)

I generally prefer the feel of a western handle but I like the balance and blade construction of a wa. I don't think you need it be finger molded level of ergonomic. It needs to match your hand size in terms of what's comfortable for you to hold onto. So for me the perfect western handle have some girth by the bolster and then distal taper pretty drastically toward the tip and toward the heel. Blade forward balance. So basically an old school Sabatier with no finger guard. And much harder steel.


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## Michi (Dec 20, 2019)

To me, a Western handle feels more ergonomic than a Wa handle. Not by much though, because half my grip is on the blade anyway, and the handle is just the bit that sticks out the back for my last three fingers to wrap around. Realistically, I can live with either type of handle: it's something for three fingers to hang onto, and either style works fine.

I'm not too fond of full bolsters though, because they get in the way of sharpening. They also stop me from using the heel of a chef's knife to core a tomato, for example. No problem doing the same thing with a Gyuto.

One exception: paring knife. The exposed heel of a Japanese paring knife is just bad design; a full bolster and no exposed heel make a lot more sense for a paring knife where, otherwise, I'm always at risk of driving the corner of the heel into my thumb when I'm peeling something.


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## Tim Rowland (Dec 20, 2019)

Well this a design that I am currently working on for a tall euro profiled chef knife, you can see the height and length measurements for the handle. About 5" long x 1.25" at the tallest point of the palm swell. Typical coke bottle shaping with flats from the palm swell leading to the bolster for a comfy pinch grip. This shape/size it what I have found to feel comfortable with either pinch or hammer grip for most medium to large sized hands...for XL hands I mainly change the width of the palm swell.


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## stringer (Dec 20, 2019)

Tim Rowland said:


> View attachment 67148
> 
> for XL hands I mainly change the *width* of the palm swell.



My preference with xl hands is for the bigger dimension to be the height of the handle rather than the width. I use that height dimension to judge verticality and give me control to resist twisting. I've tried it several ways and one of my favorite prtotypes is a long tall skinny oval. If the knife gets too much width, like too close to a circle then I feel like I lose some proprioception/fine motor control at full speed.


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## Luftmensch (Dec 20, 2019)

Nice input! Thanks for the discussion so far!


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## Tim Rowland (Dec 20, 2019)

stringer said:


> My preference with xl hands is for the bigger dimension to be the height of the handle rather than the width. I use that height dimension to judge verticality and give me control to resist twisting. I've tried it several ways and one of my favorite prtotypes is a long tall skinny oval. If the knife gets too much width, like too close to a circle then I feel like I lose some proprioception/fine motor control at full speed.



Good feedback Stringer, thank you. It is hard for me to judge personally as i have medium hands I always have to put larger handles in other peoples hands for "working feedback"


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 20, 2019)

Easily the most comfortable handle I've experienced was the Xerxes Primus II design. I think its the combination of circumference and curvature that places the handle nicely into the palm. I could see myself using this for hours without fatigue. The least comfortable for me is the newer Konosuke FM which has no taper and is too thin


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## Luftmensch (Dec 20, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> If you're going into ergonomics, then the only way to make the best western handle would be to take impressions of the hand. Kind of like how they take custom moulds of ears to make custom IEMs.



Perhaps. There must be a more general set of geometric relationships that is at least 'useful' though?





stringer said:


> I generally prefer the feel of a western handle but I like the balance and blade construction of a wa. I don't think you need it be finger molded level of ergonomic. It needs to match your hand size in terms of what's comfortable for you to hold onto. So for me the perfect western handle have some girth by the bolster and then distal taper pretty drastically toward the tip and toward the heel. Blade forward balance. So basically an old school Sabatier with no finger guard. And much harder steel.



Agreed... Certainly with integral bolster and full tang, you start to shift the balance point backwards. I'll have to get an old school Sab in my mits one day.





Michi said:


> To me, a Western handle feels more ergonomic than a Wa handle. Not by much though, because half my grip is on the blade anyway, and the handle is just the bit that sticks out the back for my last three fingers to wrap around. Realistically, I can live with either type of handle: it's something for three fingers to hang onto, and either style works fine.
> 
> I'm not too fond of full bolsters though, because they get in the way of sharpening. They also stop me from using the heel of a chef's knife to core a tomato, for example. No problem doing the same thing with a Gyuto.
> 
> One exception: paring knife. The exposed heel of a Japanese paring knife is just bad design; a full bolster and no exposed heel make a lot more sense for a paring knife where, otherwise, I'm always at risk of driving the corner of the heel into my thumb when I'm peeling something.



Full bolsters are the worst! Absolutely terrible for sharpening. Interesting point about the paring knife though. That makes a lot of sense.





Tim Rowland said:


> Well this a design that I am currently working on for a tall euro profiled chef knife, you can see the height and length measurements for the handle. About 5" long x 1.25" at the tallest point of the palm swell. Typical coke bottle shaping with flats from the palm swell leading to the bolster for a comfy pinch grip. This shape/size it what I have found to feel comfortable with either pinch or hammer grip for most medium to large sized hands...for XL hands I mainly change the width of the palm swell.



A man after my heart! +1 for the visuals!

The coke bottle design is bewitching aesthetically (to me). I pinch grip - so i cant see a real need for it. Does it help for hammer grip?





stringer said:


> My preference with xl hands is for the bigger dimension to be the height of the handle rather than the width. I use that height dimension to judge verticality and give me control to resist twisting. I've tried it several ways and one of my favorite prtotypes is a long tall skinny oval. If the knife gets too much width, like too close to a circle then I feel like I lose some proprioception/fine motor control at full speed.



Interesting... what would be your preference? ~30mm tall? 20mm wide?




Tim Rowland said:


> Good feedback Stringer, thank you. It is hard for me to judge personally as i have medium hands I always have to put larger handles in other peoples hands for "working feedback"



Right!? It can be hard to know. Is "medium hands" what people with small hands say?  By some measure I have small hands... so does that mean I have tiny hands! 

I am average height (maybe a tad shorter) for an eastern European phenotype. Bigger hands than some. Smaller than others. I have some friends who grew up in more rural settings - must be something in the water there. Looks like they are wearing baseball mitts.


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## Luftmensch (Dec 20, 2019)

So... open question.

For a pinch grip - thumb and index finger on the blade; the lower three fingers wrapped around the handle. Do you want any of the lower three fingers to touch the muscles at the base of the thumb (thenar eminence). That would place a limit on the circumference of the handle.

_I think_ I would like the handle to taper in circumference from the middle finger to pinky (ie in the direction from blade tip to heel) such that my three fingers can _just_ touch my thenar eminence. I _think_... This might give a better sense of security and feed back. But I havent held enough knives for long enough... And I certainly havent done so mindfully (since I started thinking about it from a design point of view)


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## HRC_64 (Dec 20, 2019)

Western handles allow different grips than japaneese handles. The drop/curve at the back is an ergonomic design for doing tip-work. 
IMHO you will want probably different styles of grip to have variety just like with other things


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## stringer (Dec 20, 2019)

4 knives to look at.
1. test handle - ultra skinny
spine thickness at handle 2.4mm, 25mm tall X 12mm wide
Surprisingly comfortable for chopping. The place the skinny handle sucks is sharpening. I've been practicing kasumi with this blade so I've flattened the bevels and then been testing a bunch of different stones on it. It's a workout in a carpal tunnel kind of way. I've been wrapping a rag around it and rubberbanding it.

2. typical japanese Western - dimensions at bolster 24mm tall X 16mm wide, 2.0mm where spine meets bolster
Very comfortable. No real distal taper on this one because its cheap prefab San Mai, but the handle ergonomics on this type of blade really work for me. Lots of this construction in my work kit. I would want them sized up to about 28mm tall with the same ratio as the little gyuto so about 18-19mm wide and at least a 4-5mm spine (tapered toward the tip and the butt) for a 240mm knife.

3. typical Sabatier - dimensions at bolster 17mm tall X 16mm wide, 5.6mm where spine meets bolster
I like the basic construction here. significant distal taper (GOOD), a little dainty for the length of the blade and for my hands and it's too square/round for me, not enough oval/rectangle. And ditch the finger guard and crummy steel obviously. But this general idea is great. The dimensions a little further back are better for me if they just extended all the way to the bolster instead of having an elegant little taper. At the first rivet the knife is 21mm tall and 21mm wide. Again I like a taller rectangle like the Japanese style better than the square style. But overall, I love using the Sabatier.

4. Shi.Han - dimensions at top of ferrule 24mm tall X 20mm wide, 4.0mm at spine
I'm just including this because it's my favorite handle. It narrowly edges out my Watanabe. I don't really own a high caliber Western yet. This knife pretty closely captures my favorite dimensions and ergonomics though. It's a big handle, but I wouldn't mind it being even a little bigger. I don't like the huge gap between the handle and the choil. That's one of the things I find more comfortable on Westerns than Was. It bothers me more on my Watanabe than on this knife. For me, the hexagon shape is way better than a square or a circle or a Watanabe D. It's taller than it is wide. Excellent distal taper. But my ideal Western handle wouldn't get skinny near the bolster. It would be the same the thickness and shape from the top of the bolster to at least the middle of the handle. And it would be about 28mm tall and 20mm wide. Interestingly, at least to me, is those dimensions roughly match the height of the handle at the heel of the Shi.han and the width of the handle at the ferrule.


As far as other hand positions. I am sure I use other hand positions but mostly for gyutos, especially the really repetitive stuff where you can measure how much produce that thing is chopping by the bushel, it's mostly going to be a pretty aggressive pinch grip. When dealing with wet, oily ingredients a nice Western just feels so much more in control. A slippery Watanabe is like a Ferrari with bad brakes. Hopefully my phone is charged up enough now to take some pictures. I really gotta get a new battery for that thing.


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## Luftmensch (Dec 20, 2019)

stringer said:


> A slippery Watanabe is like a Ferrari with bad brakes. Hopefully my phone is charged up enough now to take some pictures. I really gotta get a new battery for that thing.



Please do. Thank you so much for the post. I will reply this evening!

Any thoughts on length? A pinch grip only requires a very short handle - but I guess that limits options for other grips (though it would also help to shift weight forward).


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## Benuser (Dec 21, 2019)

One of my preferred ones: the Nogent, on old school Sabs. Rat-tail, very light. 
Here a NOS:



And here an original ebony handle, could be easily exchanged. A necessity, as it was a rather fragile construction.


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 21, 2019)

@Benuser wow, what do you use the blade in the second picture for? Is it a boning knife? Very elegant. [emoji1305]


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## Benuser (Dec 21, 2019)

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/why-i-do-what-i-do.5167/
From post #29. 
Broken chef's, that has been transformed into a Honesuki, more than a century ago.


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## Benuser (Dec 21, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> @Benuser wow, what do you use the blade in the second picture for? Is it a boning knife? Very elegant. [emoji1305]


Use it still for any small task.
@sachem allison learned me to love old carbons.


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## Oui Chef (Dec 22, 2019)

Benuser said:


> One of my preferred ones: the Nogent, on old school Sabs. Rat-tail, very light.
> Here a NOS:
> 
> 
> ...


From the 1920's wow. 
I'd love to do the same thing with Japanese blades. Hunt for extremely old, simple work knives, that'd be a cool collection. Maybe if I end up settling there again. The Japanese have a habit of discarding the old a little more readily though, I bet such things are hard to find there.


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## panda (Dec 22, 2019)

the only western handle i actually like is from mac


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## Luftmensch (Dec 22, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> If you're going into ergonomics, then the only way to make the best western handle would be to take impressions of the hand. Kind of like how they take custom moulds of ears to make custom IEMs.



So... your suggestion beat me to it... I was going to do exactly that - but for a different reason. I wanted to take a mould of my grip so I could measure aspects of it and come up with a geometric simplification of it. 

Presenting my (right hand) pinch grip mould using air-dry Fimo.

Right side (right side of image is front of handle):






Left side (left side of image is front of handle):






Top (left side of image is front of handle):






Index finger contour highlighted from the top:






Index finger contour highlighted from the right side:






Thumb contour highlighted from the top:






Thumb contour highlighted from the left:






Thumb contour highlighted from the back:






The lovely thing about this 'handle' is that I can have a very secure hold on it using a relaxed grip. Since the contours follow my hand, there is an even distribution of pressure over a large surface area. But everything else is a disadvantage:

Only supports one grip. Hammer grip feels awful.
Terrible for small index finger and thumb guided movements. You can rotate a square/circle/oval/D handle using your index finger and thumb - the part of the handle that passes along the palm can rotate relatively easily. On a handle like this, that becomes difficult.
Clearly only suited to one hand! And only one chirality!
Very ugly.
Observations:

For pinch grip the handle can be quite short.
Some of the cross-sectional geometry is larger than I would have predicted for my hand size (but I think simple caliper measurements ignore the complexity of the cross-sectional geometry)
An ergonomic handle is unlikely to be symmetric
Keeping the geometry traditional/familiar but adding a plane/contour for the thenar eminence might be the single biggest generic improvement to ergonomics (and would lead to a slight asymmetry but not completely ruin other grips)


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## Luftmensch (Dec 22, 2019)

For what it is worth. Here are some maximum height measurements (in millimetres):






And width measurements (view from bottom is more descriptive):






All of these are probably +/-2.5mm. Since nothing is flat, choosing the right reference planes is a bit arbitrary. Again... the measurements are surprisingly large because the grip can bypass the 'long route' caused by square or circular cross-sections.


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## Luftmensch (Dec 23, 2019)

stringer said:


> 4 knives to look at.
> 1. test handle - ultra skinny
> spine thickness at handle 2.4mm, 25mm tall X 12mm wide
> Surprisingly comfortable for chopping. The place the skinny handle sucks is sharpening. I've been practicing kasumi with this blade so I've flattened the bevels and then been testing a bunch of different stones on it. It's a workout in a carpal tunnel kind of way. I've been wrapping a rag around it and rubberbanding it.
> ...



Thanks for taking the time to write up your thoughts. Super generous of you!





stringer said:


> e place the skinny handle sucks is sharpening. I've been practicing kasumi with this blade so I've flattened the bevels and then been testing a bunch of different stones on it. It's a workout in a carpal tunnel kind of way.



Obvious now that you have said it... but I wasn't even considering ergonomics during sharpening. Great point!



stringer said:


> I don't like the huge gap between the handle and the choil. That's one of the things I find more comfortable on Westerns than Was.



This is true. Simple hand geometry! If we use a pinch grip, the three fingers after the index finger will be brought forward and need something to grip onto. A long neck can make that uncomfortable.



stringer said:


> Excellent distal taper. But my ideal Western handle wouldn't get skinny near the bolster. It would be the same the thickness and shape from the top of the bolster to at least the middle of the handle.



I am drawing a similar conclusion... from the front of the handle to the back: same width from the bolster to the middle finger, slight reduction to the ring finger bigger drop off to the little finger.


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## stringer (Dec 24, 2019)

This forgecraft handle is actually pretty close to ideas for me. And it's stupid simple. But I like the tall skinny rectangle. I like that it doesn't taper. Just pretend that there's a bolster. I obviously want a thicker spine and a taller choil. But the scales are sized how I want. The handle is 28mm tall * 20mm wide. Excluding the little cut out.

















"For pinch grip the handle can be quite short" -Luftmensch

I don't think you can just make the handle shorter in length without screwing up the balance, or at least the perception of balance. I find that I like the handle to be as long as it can be without having the butt interfere with my forearm. You need probably a little less than an inch of clearance. For me, that means like 90 percent of knives are perfect. They all seem to be about the same length. If you had smaller hands then I imagine there could be a lot of handles out there that hit your forearm. Every once in awhile I find one that's too short. They don't feel right. I don't mind stumpy little handles on cleavers but they don't feel right on gyutos, to me.

And I forgot to post a pic of the Sabatier distal taper. Those guys could grind.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 1, 2020)

stringer said:


> I don't think you can just make the handle shorter in length without screwing up the balance, or at least the perception of balance. I find that I like the handle to be as long as it can be without having the butt interfere with my forearm.



True! But how long does that need to be? I have several Wa handles that are 150mm from choil to handle end/butt. This is a little longer than _I_ need. At 150mm the butt can interfere with my forearm for extreme wrist movements (normal movements are ok).

I was thinking 120mm might be a reasonable handle length for my hand. The following is me trying to balance reasonable measurements with what I perceive to be a 'sexy' design (measurements in millimetres):








What do you all think?


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## Luftmensch (Jan 1, 2020)

stringer said:


> And I forgot to post a pic of the Sabatier distal taper. Those guys could grind.



Geeeeze... how thin is that tip section?


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## Michi (Jan 1, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> What do you all think?


Looks quite similar to this:


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## Luftmensch (Jan 1, 2020)

Michi said:


> Looks quite similar to this





Don't get me wrong... I am not claiming any novelty here. In fact... I am deliberately tapping into that canonical shape! Just thinking about how to size it and balance the curves!


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## Michi (Jan 1, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Don't get me wrong... I am not claiming any novelty here. In fact... I am deliberately tapping into that canonical shape! Just thinking about how to size it and balance the curves!


Right. I'm not suggesting you were. It's just that, as soon as I saw your diagram, I was reminded of that handle.

I guess it's a handle shape that works for many people; otherwise, it wouldn't be around.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 1, 2020)

Michi said:


> Right. I'm not suggesting you were. It's just that, as soon as I saw your diagram, I was reminded of that handle.



No sir! Not interpreted as such. 

But if I am succeeding it should be reminiscent of other handles  I guess it shouldn't be too hard to tap into that lineage? It is pretty canonical.

My inspiration is more along the lines of a Shigefusa Yo handle (thanks for the visual feast @Zweber12). If you've ever handled one... I find that the handles are a little dainty for my hands (too narrow and short). But I like the aesthetic. The straight line from blade spine all the way through the the handle... the curve at the back.... mmmmm....


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## Itsjun (Jan 1, 2020)

I like this handle alot compared to misono or tojiro westerns..
I like the way it's tapered to hit the palm and fingers.
I don't really fancy those "boxy" kind of western handle, round handle feels more comfortable for my hand for long usage


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## Benuser (Jan 1, 2020)

Itsjun said:


> I like this handle alot compared to misono or tojiro westerns..
> I like the way it's tapered to hit the palm and fingers.
> I don't really fancy those "boxy" kind of western handle, round handle feels more comfortable for my hand for long usage


The Misono are very different from one series to another. The UX-10 a bit boxy, the Swedish Carbon nicely rounded, the 440 in between, all very comfortable thanks to the Fit&Finish.


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## Bensbites (Jan 1, 2020)

stringer said:


> My preference with xl hands is for the bigger dimension to be the height of the handle rather than the width. I use that height dimension to judge verticality and give me control to resist twisting. I've tried it several ways and one of my favorite prtotypes is a long tall skinny oval. If the knife gets too much width, like too close to a circle then I feel like I lose some proprioception/fine motor control at full speed.


We should get together and compare notes. I am very curious... maybe we need to get a Boston meetup going.


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## HRC_64 (Jan 6, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> What do you all think?



Just a comment about the idea of "balance" or the "appearance of balance" noted upthread as well.

The rotational torque around the balance point is a function of lever arm length,
and this is related to where the knife has its mass distributed but is not exactly
about balance around a single desired point, but around distribution of mass
vs rotational inertia.

if your rotational ineria point is your balance point, the levers matter,
which means the lenght of handle not just the handle weight matters,
also the distal taper impacts the rotational inertia, not just the blade lenght,
or the blade mass since taper impacts where along the blade the mass actually sits.

Another analogy could be tang thickness mass or type of wood in a wa handle,etc
also the emoto lenght on something like a KS impacts the handle/handling of the KS
because it legnthens the lever arm of the handle even if it doesn't alter the mass of the wood/horn etc

there is a thread detailing this alot better than my summary somewhere, it was an interesting discussion
probably not doing it justice with this summary.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 8, 2020)

HRC_64 said:


> there is a thread detailing this alot better than my summary somewhere, it was an interesting discussion
> probably not doing it justice with this summary.



Any chance you could find/link it?


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## sergchub (Feb 28, 2020)

does anyone else feel that the western handle on Zwilling Kramer chefs is way too thick? I am a big guy (6' 1") and it just felt huge. really wanted to like it but just couldn't...


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## inferno (Feb 28, 2020)

sergchub said:


> does anyone else feel that the western handle on Zwilling Kramer chefs is way too thick? I am a big guy (6' 1") and it just felt huge. really wanted to like it but just couldn't...



yeah these are very big and strange imo. not a fan. it feels like they promote the "hammer grip", and no one really use a hammer grip on a knife. all users are in luck though. since there is a gap/height difference between the scales and the steel (on all of them i guess) you need to work on the handle. and then you can thin it down at the same time  win-win i'd say.
----------------

regarding ergo handles. i made my first 3 handles (2 moras) and 1 mac rehandle "100% assymetric" since i'm right handed.
the moras are kinda shaped as bananas but with a 2mm titanium fingerguard so you can index on this in complete darkness. its very important that your fingers are as close to the cutting edge as possible with work knives imo. and you should be able to get to this grit without looking at the hand/knife.

the mac is kinda gen2 of this. only works for right handed people. dont look too assymetetric in pics but in reality its like a block of legos in the left.
this i think has turned out to be my most ergo handle. i feel that when you choke up near the blade the actual handle make less and less of a difference. the rear 50% could be whatever really.
as long as the area near the "bolster" is thin (for me) and oval and tapering slightly i feel i can get away with whatever really these days.

i made the moras in 2013 and they were my first knives. but i was very proud of them! gave them as gifts to my family. took no shortcuts.


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## esoo (Feb 28, 2020)

sergchub said:


> does anyone else feel that the western handle on Zwilling Kramer chefs is way too thick? I am a big guy (6' 1") and it just felt huge. really wanted to like it but just couldn't...



As a 5'10" guy, I've only handled the ZKramer Meiji handles ones and thought they were absolutely massive. I like the Euroline style ones in my handling (on a 8" and 10" Carbon). But I'm a lefty pinch gripper who can use a d-handle for righty with no issues, so I may not be the best commentator.


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## Wdestate (Feb 28, 2020)

I didn’t really read the other post but Michael Rader makes the most ergonomic handle I have ever used by a large amount, specifically his more recent stuff (past 2 years) . It’s sculpted but not crazy faceted like some others and always balanced perfect. I don’t know if there’s a more comfortable handle out there , at least for me


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## Michi (Feb 29, 2020)

I have a 10" ZKramer Euroline in SG-2 Damascus. Personally, I find the handle really comfortable. No complaints from me on that score.


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