# Beginner - Help



## Mrukk (Nov 21, 2014)

Hello everyone

I`m new here and i`m just starting to enter this world of really sharp knives as a keen homecook.

After much research i guess i will go for a Tojiro DP Gyutou 20 cm because is within my budget and it seems really good for the price . But my main concern is the sharpening part, i guess waterstones are the way to go, but I need some guidance first, as there are so many choices that it gets confusing for a beginner.

If you can help me choose, i´d apreciate, my budget is around $50, i guess for a beginner it will be enough to learn, i´ll be praticing on a Victorinox chefs knife and only then i will sharpen the Tojiro.

As i´m from Portugal, i dont have many places to buy from, but I found this site http://www.fine-tools.com/ that ships to Portugal, so i`ll buy from them.

Apreciate the help

Greetings


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## mhpr262 (Nov 21, 2014)

I'd recommed the white-blue Missarka combo with 150/500 grit (Euro Standard, so 500 is like 800 Japanese) and the "pink" fine stone on this page: http://www.fine-tools.com/kuns.htm. 

I have the pink one, works very well and feels OK. It is especially suited for stainless steels and won't clog up. the 150/145 mm versions are quite large enough for me, even for a 10'' Wüsthof.


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## Benuser (Nov 21, 2014)

Have a look at the Naniwa stones with knivesandtools.fr


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## Mrukk (Nov 21, 2014)

mhpr262 said:


> I'd recommed the white-blue Missarka combo with 150/500 grit (Euro Standard, so 500 is like 800 Japanese) and the "pink" fine stone on this page: http://www.fine-tools.com/kuns.htm.
> 
> I have the pink one, works very well and feels OK. It is especially suited for stainless steels and won't clog up. the 150/145 mm versions are quite large enough for me, even for a 10'' Wüsthof.




I guess I would prefer a japanese stone, it´s what everyone uses, and maybe it will be better for the Tojiro.

I just saw the naniwa combination stone 1000/3000 for 19.95, its a great price, but will it be fairly good or will i just be loosing money?


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## Matus (Nov 21, 2014)

Welcome Mrukk! I have bought from fine-tools in the past - they are nice to deal with. I bought from them the _*CERAX Combination Stone small 1000/6000*_ which I did not like too much - the 1000 side was slow to cut and dished quickly. The _*BESTER Combination Stone Grit 1000/6000*_ was much better, but it is out of your price range. From the stones available there I would probably go for the King large 1000/6000 if I were on the budget. The smaller stones are much less stable to be used comfortably - I would advice you to go for the full size stones (usually around 210x70 mm, give or take).


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## muddywaterstones (Nov 21, 2014)

Welcome. I'll second fine tools as a company to deal with. For a beginner, there is no real need for anything beyond the 1200 Bester. You can do some serious sharpening with that alone. Sure moving along to a 4000-6000 range stone gives something a little more refined but it's marginal and the budget doubles. If the budget is 50 then one good stone in the 1000 grit range is all you need. The Bester 1200 is more than good enough to be a stand-alone stone.


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## chinacats (Nov 21, 2014)

+1 to starting with one good stone and branching out after you learn the basics...plus then you'll already have one good stone


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## Mrukk (Nov 21, 2014)

I guess thats a way to see things, to learn with a good stone, and then later buy a 4000-6000 grit for example.

But a good stone like that wont be wasted on a beginner`s hands?

Any other good options on the 1000-12000 grit?? 50 for just one stone is rather expensive for me.

Thank you all for the swift answers.


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## Matus (Nov 21, 2014)

The truth is - most 'good' stones (i.e. those highly regarded around here like Gesshin, JNS, Chosera and some others) usually cost more than 50. The advice to concentrate on one stone only is a sound one, grit of 1000 may leave more 'toothy' edge then you may like though, but the advantage of starting with one good stone (like the mentioned Bester 1200) is that you will not really have a reason to replace it once your technique will improve. 

Unless you will try to cut your stone with you knives or throw it around, there is not much you can do to 'waste' it. And learning the basics of free hand sharpening is also not that complicated. I would suggest looking the at the videos that Jon from JKI (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com) has in his youtube stream. They are really good - he explains it all nicely.


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## Mrukk (Nov 21, 2014)

Matus said:


> The truth is - most 'good' stones (i.e. those highly regarded around here like Gesshin, JNS, Chosera and some others) usually cost more than 50. The advice to concentrate on one stone only is a sound one, grit of 1000 may leave more 'toothy' edge then you may like though, but the advantage of starting with one good stone (like the mentioned Bester 1200) is that you will not really have a reason to replace it once your technique will improve.
> 
> Unless you will try to cut your stone with you knives or throw it around, there is not much you can do to 'waste' it. And learning the basics of free hand sharpening is also not that complicated. I would suggest looking the at the videos that Jon from JKI (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com) has in his youtube stream. They are really good - he explains it all nicely.




I guess you`re right, it´s not a cheap thing, if you want something rather good.

I´ll wait one more month, save some more money and buy the Bester Combination Grit 1000/6000, and i'll be set for a good time.

For me, i think, as a homecook, one combination stone is more than enough, and with the Bester 1000/6000 i´ll be able to sharp my future Tojiro DP with a good edge.

What do you think of my choice?


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## Castalia (Nov 21, 2014)

Bester 1000/6000 is fine. I don't know where to buy it in Europe but the King 1000/6000 combo stone is often cheaper (for the smaller size) and is a good first stone.
:thumbsup:


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## Matus (Nov 21, 2014)

Mrukk said:


> I guess you`re right, it´s not a cheap thing, if you want something rather good.
> 
> I´ll wait one more month, save some more money and buy the Bester Combination Grit 1000/6000, and i'll be set for a good time.
> 
> ...



I think that is a good choice for the money. I have mentioned the Bester as I bought it for my brother-in-law and I also used it (on VG-10 Shun classic) and it worked nicely.


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## Mrukk (Nov 21, 2014)

It´s decided then 

What about flatening the stone, is their a way to do it cheaply? like sandpaper or something...


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## Ruso (Nov 21, 2014)

Looks like you've decided, but I will throw my 2 cents as well.

As the beginner, you do not really need a high grit stone like 6K or 5K. I suggest you invest in ~1000grit and ~400grit. 
You can use ~400 to practice on cheaper knives and start feeling for the burr formation. Also it's nice to have when your good knives gets really dull.
~1000 will be you main stone for the Tojiro and the finishing one for the time being.

On a budget I suggest.
King 1K : http://www.amazon.de/dp/B0016VC46A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Norton India Medium: http://www.amazon.de/dp/B00I3P4DN4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Norton is not a water stone but its cheap, fast and slow dishing.

To flatten, 120-220grit sandpaper or drywall screen on a flat surface will do. Make sure you add water in between.


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## Matus (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes - sanding paper (take a larger sheet) placed on a flat floor tile or other hard flat surface works fine. I used that before I upgraded to diamond plate.


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## Mrukk (Nov 21, 2014)

Matus said:


> Yes - sanding paper (take a larger sheet) placed on a flat floor tile or other hard flat surface works fine. I used that before I upgraded to diamond plate.



I`ll try that, right now i´m watching the videos of www.chefsknivestogo.com to learn, he even uses a victorinox just like the one i`ll use to pratice.

What sanding paper grit should i use for the 1000/6000 combo??


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## Matus (Nov 21, 2014)

I think the grit Ruso mentioned sounds like the one I used. Start with something around 200 and get lower grit if the flattening will get too slow. Be prepared that the sanding paper will tend to clog with the stone powder. Also - if you collect the stone powder you may later (in particular on carbon knives to remove patina) find use for it. But it will take a few sessions until any flattening will be necessary.


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## Mrukk (Nov 21, 2014)

Thank you for your help.

Once I have the stone, i'll be back to let you know


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## muddywaterstones (Nov 21, 2014)

You could always order a King somewhere in the 800-1200 range. I've only used the 1000 and it dishes fast but I used to like the feedback. The Bester is quicker and doesn't hollow out the same way but it is double the price. Long-term I don't know if there would be much between them but short-term this King is cheaper.


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## Mrukk (Nov 22, 2014)

I´ve been looking at the site finetools, and i`ve come across this santoku at 44.50 http://www.fine-tools.com/messer3.htm, they look really good for the price, and i guess its from tojiro.

Will they be a good replacement for a Tojiro DP? altough they are carbon steel, is it that hard to maintain them? i know they can get super sharp.

Sorry for all the questions :angel2:


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## Matus (Nov 22, 2014)

Concerning the santoku - the thing is - unless there is someone around who has experience with it - there is no way to tell whether the knife has grind that is any good, much less the heat treatment. The description does not even mention what type of steel it is. What I am trying to say is - it may be a great deal, or maybe also not.

Since you seem to be interested in a low price carbon knife - just have a look here It is a german shop (you order via email, though I am not sure the guy speaks english - I have not bought there anything yet) and have a look at their standard knives. You can get there santoku, bunka or funayuki in 165mm size for around 40 and they look like simple user knives. The guy also sells Zakuri knives (though they do cost more ) and they have very good reputation.

Concerning taking care of carbon knives - if you wipe the blade during use here and then and do not leave them wet, they will just acquire patina with time (and the patina will be getting more 'stable' with time) which will up to some extend protect the knife from rusting. The kurouchi finish also helps to protect the knife a bit.

Carbon knives are definitely nicer and usually easier to sharpen and offer more feedback. Cheap(ish) carbon knife is IMO the best way to learn free hand sharpening.


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## Mrukk (Nov 22, 2014)

Matus said:


> Concerning the santoku - the thing is - unless there is someone around who has experience with it - there is no way to tell whether the knife has grind that is any good, much less the heat treatment. The description does not even mention what type of steel it is. What I am trying to say is - it may be a great deal, or maybe also not.
> 
> Since you seem to be interested in a low price carbon knife - just have a look here It is a german shop (you order via email, though I am not sure the guy speaks english - I have not bought there anything yet) and have a look at their standard knives. You can get there santoku, bunka or funayuki in 165mm size for around 40 and they look like simple user knives. The guy also sells Zakuri knives (though they do cost more ) and they have very good reputation.
> 
> ...



Its this knife Tojiro Shirogami Santoku 165mm, i saw it in a site that i cant put here, the steel is Shirogami (White #2) , i´m almost certain its the same knive and people seem to like it.

I´m not particulary interested in carbon steel knives, its just mere curiosity in using one, it must be fun.

Thank you for the german site, will give it a look.


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## Mrukk (Nov 24, 2014)

Just ordered the Bester 1200  , in a few days i should have it. I thought better, and ordered it instead of the combination stone, later on i will think of a stone with a finer grit if i feel the need.

Anyone with good tips for using this stone?? apreciate the help.


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## chinacats (Nov 24, 2014)

The best advice I can give is to find one mentor or guide who you can trust to teach the basics. I would personally recommend Jon at JKI, his video channel can be linked from his site. Free sharpening lessons from one of the best.

Only other thing is to be patient and enjoy yourself.


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## psfred (Nov 24, 2014)

You will need to flatten your Bester before using it, they are usually not perfectly flat. Occasionally you will find one that has a very hard outer surface, and the knife will skate around instead of sharpening, which problem is cured by flattening some more to remove the overly hard surface. This is because they are ceramic bond stones and are fired in a kiln -- the ones on the outside of the pile get a little bit hotter than wanted. Will not affect the quality once you remove the surface.

Besters need to be soaked for a few minutes (ten or more, actually) before use, and I keep mine in a bucket of water since I'm usually sharpening something at least once a week. You can let them dry out between uses, they don't suffer from cracking or chipping with repeated wet/dry cycles, but they must be completely soaked before you use them, and do not let them run dry while sharpening, or the surface will clog with metal powder and they quit cutting. Just add more water to fix that. Speaking of water, they are "thirsty" in that the water tends to percolate through the stone and they will run dry more quickly than some "splash and go" stones. Keep a small container of water handy to splash a bit on them when needed. They don't produce "mud" very much, just metal powder.

They cut rather quickly and with a nice feel -- you will hear when the edge is formed, the sound of the steel on the stone changes. Lots of gray/black swarf with very little grit in it. They wear quite slowly for waterstones, and will tolerate pressure well, although you should not be using much. Good stones to learn how to use waterstones on if you have been using Arkansas stones. 

Peter


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## Mrukk (Nov 24, 2014)

Thank you for the good advice, it will be my first time with a waterstone, i hope i can get a reasonable edge on my Victorinox without much trouble.


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## psfred (Nov 24, 2014)

A bester 1200 should put a nice edge on a Victorinox with no trouble at all. Strop on some newspaper with black print on it after the stone, cheap enough and it will shine up the edge a bit.

I finish those type of knives on a synthetic blue aoto stone (2000 to 3000 grit), but it's not absolutely necessary, and you may even prefer the edge from the 1200.

Peter


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## muddywaterstones (Nov 25, 2014)

Most of the advice you need is already given above. Jon's videos are a real treasure trove of knowledge. As I improved I could go back, watch them again and learn something new that would move me on a further step. Haven't watched them in a while now. Maybe I should!

A water spray can be handy for keeping the stone from drying out in use. Sometimes I wet the knife too though I can't say it's that important. Pay attention to de-burring. The knife will be good for 99.9% of normal uses.


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## x737 (Nov 25, 2014)

As far as I know best angle for Victorinox is 20-25 degrees whereas the Japanese knives take angles circa 15 degrees. Factor that when learning and then switching to a different knife.


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## Mrukk (Nov 25, 2014)

thanks everybody for the help , i`l be posting my results


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## Mrukk (Dec 3, 2014)

I finally got my Bester 1200, and praticed already on 3 of my old dull knives, using the JKI videos as a reference, and got them as sharp as they once were, but it still is far from razorsharp, i can cut paper but not with the push/pull techique, maybe wont be possible with cheap knives, and my technique is still in its very early stages. I find difficult to find the so called burr, i am not really sure what to look for altough i know the theory and keeping the angle is hard too, but with pratice i'm sure i'll get there.

About the stone, altough i dont have any other to compare, i found it very easy to work with, very responsive and it cut very quickly, i got the feeling that it dried out very quickly and had to splash water many times, i soaked it for 12 minutes, maybe it needs longer.

I am very happy with the stone and the quick results it produce for a novice like me :thumbsup:

Big thanks from all you guys and the great advices, i`m counting on your help to keep improving


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## Steverino (Dec 3, 2014)

You will need to splash this stone even if you soak it longer, but soaking it longer will help a lot. Twelve minutes really isn't enough. I find thirty minutes is a minimum and longer is better. If you have a setup that will tolerate it, start soaking the day before and you will know what it can do when it is adequately soaked. It doesn't need a full day, but that way you'll be sure it's gotten all the time it needs and you can use that as a benchmark to see how shorter soaking times work in the future.


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## Zwiefel (Dec 3, 2014)

Mrukk said:


> I finally got my Bester 1200, and praticed already on 3 of my old dull knives, using the JKI videos as a reference, and got them as sharp as they once were, but it still is far from razorsharp, i can cut paper but not with the push/pull techique, maybe wont be possible with cheap knives, and my technique is still in its very early stages. I find difficult to find the so called burr, i am not really sure what to look for altough i know the theory and keeping the angle is hard too, but with pratice i'm sure i'll get there.
> 
> About the stone, altough i dont have any other to compare, i found it very easy to work with, very responsive and it cut very quickly, i got the feeling that it dried out very quickly and had to splash water many times, i soaked it for 12 minutes, maybe it needs longer.
> 
> ...



Even cheapo SS will cut paper quite nicely with properly sharpening, and a moderately thin edge.


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## Mrukk (Dec 3, 2014)

It can cut paper, but it cant do it with the pushing through the paper.

Next time i´ll try to soak the stone for a longer period of time.


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## Matus (Dec 3, 2014)

Do not worry about the push-cutting a paper. 1200 grit is not fine enough to allow for that. At least that is my experience (with 2000 grit stone). Of course - the knife being a soft stainless does not make that easier. If it cuts well, than you have achieved an important first step.


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## Ruso (Dec 4, 2014)

@1200 you should be able to push cut a normal office paper. It would not be very smooth or silent but it should.


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## psfred (Dec 4, 2014)

Old dull knives that were probably sharpened at 20 degrees a side take a LONG time to get really sharp with a Bester 1200. It can take a while with a 300 grit stone to grind off all the excess steel to get to the edge.

Add to that the fact that they have been well flattened at the edge with use, and getting them sharp is a chore on a 1200 grit stone. It can be done, but it's not fast.

Hold the edge under a bright light and see if it is shiny -- hold the knife edge up at an angle toward you lower than eye level. Any flat spots on the edge will show up as bright reflections. A really sharp knife will reflect all the light off the bevel away from you sideways and show a dark edge.

I'm guessing you will find lots of shiny spots....

Keep at it, and the knives will get sharper. You will feel a small burr off a Bester, and for soft stainless you don't want a big one, it can flop back and forth for a long time, and be very difficult to get rid of.

Peter


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## Benuser (Dec 4, 2014)

Peter is perfectly right. It is a lot of work to get a decent edge out of it. I would thin aggressively at the lowest angle with coarse sandpaper until you twice raise a burr -- so you're sure all fatigued steel got abraded -- and than you may start thinking about the kind of bevel you're looking for.


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## Mrukk (Dec 9, 2014)

thank you guys for all your good advices,.

Today i did another session of sharpening on two dull small knives, and for the first time i was able to get a burr, at least one that i could perceive, and my technique was a little more fluid, maintaining the angle and movement.

With time i guess my techique will get good, so that i can get a finer stone around the 4000-6000 grit to get my knives even sharper, altough my wife is saying the knives are cutting way to much:biggrin:


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## Matus (Dec 9, 2014)

Great to hear you are getting first results. I can only confirm - you will get better with time for sure


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## Mrukk (Dec 21, 2014)

Finally got my Tojiro DP 210 mm gyuto directly from Japan, it took 3 weeks to get to Portugal, its a great knife atleast for my standards, worlds apart from my Victorinox, the sharpness even from the box is on another level., i´m very happy.

My problem is when i will have to sharpen it, will my bester 1200 be enough to atleast maintain the sharpness it came from the box?? or do i need a finer grit stone??


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## Matus (Dec 21, 2014)

Try first with the bester and learn to get most out of it - and see how that works for you in the kitchen. Should you find that you want more refined edge, than a 5000 or 6000 would be a good choice. 

BTW, I am also waiting for Tojiro DP santoku to get delivered - since quite some time.


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## Mrukk (Dec 21, 2014)

Yes, it takes quite a while,we need to be patiente, i could see the tracking on the japan post site, it didnt work on the amazon.de site, i also didnt pay any customs so the price for the knife was great.


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## Benuser (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm afraid you can't remove the entire burr of VG-10 with a 1200-stone.


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## Mrukk (Dec 21, 2014)

Benuser said:


> I'm afraid you can't remove the entire burr of VG-10 with a 1200-stone.



I figured so, what stone do you recommend? in the mean time i´ll just sharpen it lighlty to maintain the edge.


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## Benuser (Dec 21, 2014)

I use a Naniwa snow-white 8k I like a lot, and a Chosera 5k I don't like that much.


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## Matus (Dec 21, 2014)

Mrukk said:


> I figured so, what stone do you recommend? in the mean time i´ll just sharpen it lighlty to maintain the edge.



Just a note - once you will have a sharpening session with that 1200 bester - doing last few strokes with less pressure will definitely help to get the edge a little smoother. For the fine stone - Suehiro Rika 5000 gets a lot of recommendation in its price category - though I have not managed to find one in EU and importing usually means expensive shipping (stones are heavy) and import duties. But fine-tools.com carries quite some selection of stones - they have among others some Cerax and King stones in sub 50 category. Of course - should you have the budget, than JNS 6000 (or maybe the JNS Aoto Matukusuyama) from Maksim would be the perfect solution.


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## Mrukk (Dec 28, 2014)

After some research, i found the toolsfromjapan.com, and they have the suehiro rika 5000 at a good price altough its shipped from japan, even if i pay customs it will be around 50,so i guess i`ll for the rika, as it seems many people like it for its good price and perfomance.


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