# Stone Review Thread - 3-6K Synthetics...



## Steampunk (Apr 14, 2020)

Here are some thoughts on the 3-6K synthetic stones I’ve tried… 

*JNS Red Aoto Matukusuyama: *

This is one of the stones Shigefusa use in their progression… That has to tell you something off the bat. This is not an ordinary stone…

First off, what is it? It’s a giant resinoid brick, containing a blend of 2-4K grits, according to Maksim. I’ve owned several of these stones, and there appears to be quite a bit of batch variation. Some of those were nearly splash & go (Though they required heavy splashing.), and others were very thirsty, but none really responded consistently until perma-soaked. Before I go further, I will warn you that these are the most fragile stones I’ve tried. If perma-soaked, they don’t survive the drying process, and even one example I tried didn’t even survive drying out after being used as splash & go. If you get a good example, perma-soak it, and are diligent about NEVER letting it dry out, they’ll last a VERY long time (These are huge bricks.). If you’re lazy, or unlucky, your not-very-cheap stone will crack on you in a heartbeat. However, once you feel and see how these stones perform, that’s a trade-off you’re utterly happy to make… This is in my top-5 list for incredible stones which you must-own if you’re into Japanese knives. 

Why? Firstly, the _feedback_… It’s - for lack of a better word - delicious. If you’ve tried Shapton Pro 2K’s, or Shapton Glass 4K’s, or Gesshin 6K S&G stones and think the words ‘smooth & creamy’ apply to them, you have no idea yet what that truly means… The JNS Red Aoto Matukusuyama is in another league. This is the softest, creamiest stone you’ve ever felt, but still has just a faint hint of abrasive feedback under the blade, almost like a moderately fine grit natural stone. However, it’s softer, and muddier than any natural stone you’ll ever find… This comes to the second point: the _mud_. If you like your blade to wallow in a bath of chocolate-pudding like mud while you sharpen, this is the stone for you. It’s like sharpening on a cloud. Thirdly, there’s the _finish_ this stone leaves after thinning wide/single bevel knives. If you like a polish on your higane, and distinct, misty kasumi on your jigane, then no synthetic stone I’ve ever found (And very few of the naturals I’ve used) creates such a smooth, consistent, high-contrast finish than this stone, and has the power to do so out of thin air. You can take a zero-contrast finish, and create a beautiful one on this stone alone. If you work the mud right, sometimes you question whether or not you really need/want to take it higher. It’s aggressive enough that it can pick up from an 800-1000 grit stone easily, and isn’t so fine that it needs an existing contrast in order to build one. A totally perfect stone for creating an even finish on a hamaguri grind. 

That leaves the edge… Because it’s a mixed grit, it has that ‘toothy polish’ that handles so well in the kitchen. However, since the stone is soft, and the abrasive is also kind of ‘soft’ (Not the sort that cuts really wear resistant steels well, like SG-2, ZDP-189, CPM-S30V, etc.), I’ve found it works best on tungsten carbide steels like Aogami in 61hrc+, pure carbon steels like Shirogami/10xx in 63hrc+, and sometimes certain SS like VG-10 at high hardness (60-62 hrc ish.). Furthermore, and somewhat contradictory to what I just said, it’s a nice stone for use on soft western stainless - following the JNS 800 Matukusuyama - if you’re looking for a more refined edge. Largely, as those sorts of knives typically have thicker edge bevels (.012-.025”+), which can still forgive the natural convexing of such a soft stone. 

To flatten, this stone is like butter… The easiest stone you’ll ever need to lap, and this one does need quite some lapping out of the box. However, that softness means this isn’t a great beginner stone, as it takes a light touch not to gouge the stone. A further trick up its sleeve (And a useful application for any cracked stones.), is that it can be split, and makes excellent and relatively affordable finger stones since it’s so soft.... These finger stones don’t cut as much as the base stone, but actually finish finer. The slurry also polishes nicely. 

Don’t use this stone on razors or woodworking tools, as the scratch pattern is inconsistent by design, and the stone is too soft to maintain precise geometry. Do use it on iron or stainless clad san-mai, damascus, or single-bevel clad blades. 

*Shapton Glass Stone 3000: *

This stone is hyped in the Shapton Glass range by officienados, just as the Shapton 2000 is in the Pro range. I’d actually say that these stones feel very similar, and create somewhat similar results (Though the Glass 3K is just that little bit finer, slower cutting, more dish-resistant, and more precise.). 

Where in the Pro lineup, the 2K is the first grit which feels creamy-smooth with a nice feedback, in the Glass Stone lineup it’s this 3K where the tactile joy starts to happen. It’s a bit creamy, but very hard and dish resistant, so creates very precise and consistent edge bevels. At 3K, it still has plenty of cut for touch-up work, and can almost pick up from a 500-600 grit stone if it’s finely and uniformly graded (Shapton Glass or Naniwa Pro), or maybe help to erase the convexing and deeper scratches from a soft/coarse 800 grit stone like a JNS 800 Matukusuyama. That is actually a good application for this stone… Fixing the sins in an edge bevel that’s been cut-in on a less precise stone. Like all the Shapton Glass Stones, this one responds beautifully to moderately wear resistant steels like SG-2/R2, SRS-15, Elmax, and even ZDP-189. However, since even steels like Ginsanko or Shirogami #2 at 60-62 hrc like ‘crisp’ edges, the Shapton Glass Stones are actually pretty versatile in the finer grits. Add to that, since this stone is perfectly splash & go, and very easy to store being so thin; it sounds like the penultimate on-the-go touch-up stone… Alas, to my tastes, it isn’t. 


It suffers the exact same downfall of the Shapton Pro 2000-grit, in and that the edge it creates falls into a sort of hinterland. It’s not fine enough to be ‘fine’, and breeze through dense vegetables or fruits like a razor, leaving a glossy finish, and minimal cellular/fiber damage. It’s also not ‘coarse’ enough to be an aggressively efficient cutter on things like meat, or soft skinned fruit and veg. It’s an edge that slides on tomatoes just a bit more than you’d like, and yet at the same time also requires a bit more effort on a straight-down push-cut through a carrot than a higher-grit edge. It’s kind of a ‘meh’ sort of cutting edge… What doesn’t aid its cause, is that like all Shapton stones past 1K, it’s just sort of pointless in the thinning/polishing process for clad blades. It’s like an inoffensive band that you sort of don’t mind, but can never remember the name of. 


This stone is said to load less than the Shapton Glass 4K HR, but that hasn’t been quite my experience on the steels I’ve worked with. It’ll still load minorly, but not enough it stops the stone working. Flattening this stone is like the 4K Glass; firm, but not a nightmare, since it dishes at a glacial rate for a stone this smooth feeling. 


I would actually recommend this stone for razors and woodworking tools both equally. If you’ve set your edge bevel up on an 800-1200 grit stone that maybe leaves the edge with a bit of convexity, or an irregular scratch pattern, this stone will get it nice and precise in ready for what comes next… Either synthetic stones, or natural pre-finishers (Lv.3 J-Nat or BBW) in the 6-8K JIS equivalent range. So, not a great ‘touch up’ stone for kitchen knives, but a really solid transitional one for razors or chisels/planes. 

_*TBC...*_


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## Steampunk (Apr 14, 2020)

*JNS Speckled Blue Aoto Matukusuyama: *

Out of all the JNS stones, this is the least ‘extreme’, but also the one which leaves me asking the question ‘Why?’ the most… 

This is another resinoid stone, normal sized this time, and much harder (Medium-Hard. Similar to a Gesshin 6K S&G, but ‘chalkier’ feeling, and not as creamy.), with a great spread of 3-5K. Supposedly this is an alternate to the JNS Red Aoto, imagined when it was hard to get that stone, but it’s so different it’s not a replacement for that stone at all… 

On the plus side, this is much more dish resistant, easier to use for beginners, and is VASTLY more durable than the JNS Red Aoto Matukusuyama. However, like the JNS Red Aoto, it isn’t splash & go at all. It’s very thirsty until perma-soaked. The feel of this stone isn’t bad at all; a little more informative ‘tactile feedback’ than other hard resinoid stones… It creates a streak-free kasumi, and has enough cut to invent one on a contrast-free wide or single bevel, but the resultant finish is lower-contrast. There’s not a ton of polish on the core, and the cladding isn’t as deeply misty as one would ideally like. You’d never look at this finish and go “That’s cool”. You always want to take it further. 

With edge-bevels, it suffers a little of the Shapton 2/3K syndrome, of being ‘neither here nor there’; just not quite as extremely. My gripe is more subtle, here… There’s still a bit of bite, and a bit of polish. However, it still falls just a little bit into that hinterland of being neither polished nor toothy. Where the 2-4K spread of the Red Aoto Matukusuyama gives this stone actual bite at the edge, this stone sits in that hinterland of not being a medium stone, and not being a fine stone. It’s also not a really soft stone, or a really hard stone either. The geometry of the edges off of it are not as precise as Shaptons, or Gesshin’s ultra-hard ceramic line of soakers, but it also doesn’t cut as smoothly or efficiently on hard, or wear resistant tungsten/vanadium carbide steels as some stones. It feels the abrasives of this stone aren’t as ‘hard/sharp’ as some, and it doesn’t release them in the quantity of the synthetic Red Aoto, to cope with high HRC steels in less wear resistant flavors… In general, the sort of edge this stone leaves can be summed up in this way: if you have a Gesshin 2K, or a decent 6K stone, you’ll almost never reach for this one. 

This stone also isn’t one I’d suggest for razors or woodworking tools, for the same reason I wouldn’t recommend it for transitioning between a medium-grit synthetic stone, to a fine synthetic stone or natural pre-finisher on the blade roads of wide/single bevel knives… The scratch pattern isn’t consistent enough to be worthwhile. At the end of the day, your deepest scratches will still be from a moderately coarse 3K stone, but it doesn’t actually cut much better than a 5k-ish stone. On a whole, it just never seems to be the solution to anything, whilst at the same time being an utterly inoffensive solution to many things. 

There is, however, one exception… Sharpening is such a game, that stones can have a very specific application they ‘sing’ on, even if they are non-descript, or even bad at all others. On SKD-11/SLD steels, this stone finally ‘clicks’. It’s wonderful on these knives. 

*Shapton Glass Stone 4K HR: *

This stone doesn’t get a lot of love, but it’s one of my very favorite fine-ish grit stones… The 4K Glass HR stone rides a perfect sort of balance, and for me is the first point in the Shapton line, that their stones start creating edges which are ‘sharp’ in the way they feel to cut with. In the 1K & under range, their stones cut incredibly whilst dishing slowly, but are - in tactile feel - somewhat unpleasant to use. In the 2-3K range they start feeling nice, whilst maintaining all their good grinding qualities, but still don’t create edges I ever want to use… Starting at 4K, they still feel nice to sharpen on, but for once their edges even start to feel genuinely special. 

All the good things I said about the 3K Glass Stone remain… It’s truly splash & go, easy to store, dishes incredibly slowly, is not too hard to lap when it does, cuts quickly on all steels under 4% Vanadium for its grit, doesn’t leave any contrast at all on clad single or double bevel blades, its abrasives are very tightly graded for a very even scratch pattern, it has a pleasantly smooth/creamy feel with just a bit of tactile feedback left, and cuts very precise edge bevels on steels from 57-65+ HRC. It’s just maybe a fraction slower, so you’ll never think about picking up from a 500-600 grit rock in a pinch on this stone, but at least you’ll never think twice about whether or not any 1K stone can be worked-out on it. 

Let’s talk about the edge bevels it leaves… This is where it starts to feel special. It’s just a hair toothier than a ‘coarse’ 6K stone (Even premier stone sellers, like Gesshin or JNS, don’t offer stones with abrasives as tightly graded as the big two in my experience: Shapton and Naniwa. As a result, 6K stones from such ‘niche’ companies can still offer mildly ‘toothy’ edges. Not a good thing on razors or chisels, but a very good thing on kitchen knives.), but has some keenness and polish to it that feels greater than most 4K, due to the ‘crispness’ of the edge. It’s truly lovely to use in the kitchen… You can stop most vaguely nice knives on this, irregardless the steel (Shirogami/10xx, tungsten-carbide steels like Aogami, SG-2/R2, SRS-15, N690/VG-10, Ginsanko, 12C27, AEB-L, AUS-Series, tc.). Despite the stone hardness, at this grit, it’s still relatively easy for even a novice to deburr on most of them. This sort of edge is really versatile; at least in the home-kitchen… It push-cuts well enough to leave glossy cuts on dense veg, can peel fruit without crushing it, and still have a bit of bite balanced with keenness to cut into tomatoes without too much slide. Such a ‘Swiss Army Knife’ sort of edge (Which, incidentally, it works well on, too.). If push came to shove in a pro kitchen, I’d sacrifice some clean cuts for aggression and speed of sharpening at a lower grit (800-2K), but at home this is one of my very favorite synthetic-stone edges on most steels. 

On razors and woodworking tools, it works well, but is almost getting to be just a tiny bit too fine to transition on… It’s a perfect transition to an 8K synthetic stone, but is almost too fine for J-Nat pre-finishers or BBW’s, as well as 6K stones. It’s also still a bit too coarse for 10K synths, or really fine J-Nats/Coticules on straight water. 

*TBC... *


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## Steampunk (Apr 14, 2020)

*Gesshin 1/6K Combination Stone (6K Side): *

It’s a ceramic stone, that resembles the 1K side (Mentioned in my 800-2000 Grit stone thread.) at a much finer grit. It cuts fast enough to pick up from the Gesshin 1K well, but could also pick up from a fine 800 (Naniwa Professional/Chosera), or coarse 2K (Gesshin soaker) stone. In terms of the spread of the abrasive grits, the speed of cutting, and the finish they leave, the Gesshin 1K/6K Combination stone represents a sort of perfect medium on select steels.

Ease of lapping, grit consistency, dish resistance, edge precision, ability to generate a kasumi contrast/polish on single/double bevel knives (It can sometimes leave some streaks, and the polish/kasumi isn’t perfect.), and the speed at which it cuts normal steels at reasonable HRC ranges (It’ll cut ZDP-189, and Aogami Super at high hardness, but slowly and with ‘reluctant’ feedback. Struggles A LOT with vanadium-carbide steels. Cuts 440C, Ginsanko, VG-10/N690, AUS-Series, Shirogami/10xx, similar basic carbons, etc, like butter.) is all mid-upper pack. It creates a still usefully toothy edge for this level of polish on most normal steels.

If you own mono-steel carbon or stainless Sakai knives from Suisin, Masamoto, Fujiiwara, Ashi, Misono, Hiromoto, etc, this 1K/6K combo stone is all the synthetic stone you will ever need. The performance it offers is just so perfectly suited to those sorts of knives. Maybe even cheaper Shirogami #2 single bevels, if you combine it with a decent 300-400 grit coarse stone, and if you can accept some streaks in your finish, and a 6K edge is fine enough for you. Let’s just say it’s a cuspy stone for a sushi chef, but an excellent one-stone solution for a cook who’s knives are in the $85-150 USD range, or are maybe in a more premier line but simple steel like the Suisin Inox Honyaki. Having such a one-stone-solution gives an amazing simplicity to your sharpening kit.

On Aogami, semi-stainless, or mid-high vanadium carbide steels, this stone (At either grit.) just doesn’t feel as special as it does on the simple stuff. It’s not a stone (Either side) I’d use on razors or woodworking tools, as its scratch pattern isn’t quite as precise as I’d like for these things. For finishing san-mai, clad single bevel, or Japanese chisels/plane blades, it’s just not the best stone.

Re-read paragraph #3. If your knives are entry level, this is the nicest combo stone on the market, and will probably never make you feel the need to upgrade your sharpening gear. If I owned but simple SS/Carbon J-Knives, no stones I own makes me want for more than what this combo provides… If your knives are of more exotic steels with tungsten or vanadium carbides, or if you get into aesthetic finishing on wide/single bevels, there are other stones you’ll prefer.

*Gesshin 6000 Splash & Go: *

Jon @ JKI sells great stones. This is one of them... His YouTube videos on them are must-view material prior to buying, and help a lot (Though not completely.) with being able to understand the stones you get… 

It’s a resinoid stone, of medium density, with a creamy consistency under the blade. It is, by no means, a splash & go stone… This title is a massive misnomer, and as Jon himself uses this stone as a perma-soaker, I’m not sure how in good conscience he sells it labeled as ‘Splash & Go’. Let’s just say you’d have to splash it for a very long time, and it performs erratically until it’s soaked overnight. Like the 1200 S&G, it should never have been labeled as such ‘Splash & Go’. Only his lacquer-sided stones, and diamond stones are probably truly such. Jon has great taste in stones, and sells some incredible rocks which I love, but they are all very specific (As a pro sharpener, I guarantee he knows which rocks perform on what knives, and doesn’t waste time combining stones with knives that aren’t ‘happy’ together. He’s given himself a lot of choices in his range, to match a lot of different knives.). These ones, the way he uses them, and the way I’ve independently found are best, are as perma-soakers.

This is also not a fast-cutting stone; the Gesshin 6K combo actually cuts faster on simple steels at lower hardness. It’s more of a polisher, like a Naniwa Super/Specialty Stone… Yes, he shows it being used after a 600 grit stone, and that actually does create a lovely culinary edge (With a mix of coarse and fine teeth.). However, it really cuts too slow to truly refine 600-2K scratch patterns without spending excess time on the stone, and risking convexing the edge. If you really want a true ‘6K-ish’ (Let’s just say, this 6K isn’t as tightly graded as Shapton or Naniwa.) scratch pattern off of this stone, you need to precede it with a fairly hard 3-4K stone, and use a light touch… For its grit, this is actually a fairly soft, low-density stone.

On wide or single bevels, even after perma-soaking, this stone can leave pretty severe random streaks… If you precede it with a fine enough stone (Like the JNS synthetic Red Aoto) that has already built some contrast, it initially feels like it’ll create a beautifully refined, high-contrast finish, until you push it just a little too far and you start to get streaking. If you start with a coarser stone (1-2K), it really struggles to even refine the finish, and you’ll get those streaks WAY before you’re done. A very unforgiving sort of rock on these sorts of knives, which Jon’s skill and low-resolution video hide a bit more than you may experience in your own hands.

What I actually think Jon downplayed, is that this stone cuts excellently on low-vanadium PM steel edge bevels, like R2 and SRS-15, as well as high-hardness tungstens like Aogami at 62-67 HRC. These are steels that most stones struggle with, but the Gesshin 6K S&G will cut them with the aplomb of a Shapton Glass Stone. Yet, it has more pleasant feedback on these steels than any Shapton; really creamy, and delicious. I’m always very happy to stop Aogami at any hardness or flavor, or R2 and SRS-15 on this stone. On these steels, the bevel - if created with a light touch - has a really nice balance of tooth and polish.

What it struggles with, though, are the steels that the Gesshin 1000/6000 combo excels at… The simple ones… On softer, (<62hrc.), low carbide steels (Shirogami/10xx, Ginsan, 440C, VG-10/N690, 12C27, AEB-L, 1.4116, AUS-Series, etc.), it tends to ‘over-polish’ the edge unless you just strop a couple strokes on this stone, and loses a lot of the bite it can still retain on higher-hardness, higher-carbide ones.

Basically, what you’re fighting is edge convexity. This stone releases a fair amount of abrasives even when edge-bevel sharpening, so the _very-apex_ ends up being more refined than the rest of the edge-bevel after just a few edge-leading strokes. After a few more strokes, you can start to convex the edge, and it creates that ‘over-polished’ feeling, where the edge is shaving-sharp, but will slide on tomatoes. Very high HRC knives in simple steels (65+), and knives of moderate-high hardness with some carbides (62hrc+), tend to resist this effect better, and retain their tooth.

I go into such detail over this particular stone, because how it behaves is actually quite complex… I wouldn’t use this stone on woodworking tools, or straight razors, for the properties I just described.

*Conclusions: *

Fine stones tend to behave in more complex ways than medium or coarse ones, which is why I’ve gone into the depth on them that I have.

Alas, there are many - probably excellent - finishing stones in the 3-6K grit range which I’ve ignored, as I simply do not own them. The JNS 6K, the Gesshin Synthetic Natural, Shapton 6K HC, Naniwa Pro/Chosera 3K, etc. The Shapton 5K Pro I no longer own, and its memory is too dull in my mind to comment on. Maybe one day, I’ll be able to release an update to this thread with some more synthetic stones.

Hope this helps…

- Steampunk


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## rob (Apr 14, 2020)

Thanks again, I've been looking forward to this.


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## JBroida (Apr 14, 2020)

FYI, the 6k in my set is no the blue speckled one... its the white 6000s. Many years ago it was the blue speckled one, but not anymore. And you're right, it should be called resinoid stone instead of splash and go. The name is a function of how this started many years ago when i met the people who make this stone for us. They call it splash and go because they think all resinoid stones are splash and go. That being said, you are 100% correct in that i use it soaked and recommend as much to everyone else. 

On the streaking, i actually don't have that issue at all... even on super curvy wide bevels.


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## labor of love (Apr 14, 2020)

I couldn’t believe you were describing the gesshin 6000S stone. Then I realized you weren’t. Never realized the soaker gesh 6k and combo 1/6k are completely different 6k stones.
Haha
Nice write up as always.


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## Steampunk (Apr 14, 2020)

JBroida said:


> FYI, the 6k in my set is no the blue speckled one... its the white 6000s. Many years ago it was the blue speckled one, but not anymore. And you're right, it should be called resinoid stone instead of splash and go. The name is a function of how this started many years ago when i met the people who make this stone for us. They call it splash and go because they think all resinoid stones are splash and go. That being said, you are 100% correct in that i use it soaked and recommend as much to everyone else.
> 
> On the streaking, i actually don't have that issue at all... even on super curvy wide bevels.



Hi Jon,

First off, I'm very happy you guys are open again for online sales... 

It was several years ago that I bought that set (Wow, has it really been that long? Time flies...), so I'll amend my writeup accordingly so that people don't believe it's your current set containing this stone.

As for some of the Splash & Go labels, I figured it was something of this nature, as to why these stones were labeled as such. It's merely misleading these days, for people who don't know the back-story, and think 'splash & go' always means _'splash & go'_. 

Regarding the streaking, you get somewhat different results on wide-bevel knives than I do with your stones. I've always put down to pressure differences and set length in your sharpening technique versus mine.

- Steampunk


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## ian (Apr 14, 2020)

labor of love said:


> I couldn’t believe you were describing the gesshin 6000S stone. Then I realized you weren’t. Never realized the soaker gesh 6k and combo 1/6k are completely different 6k stones.
> Haha
> Nice write up as always.



Oh. That makes more sense now.


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## labor of love (Apr 14, 2020)

ian said:


> Oh. That makes more sense now.


If you wanna borrow the 6000S just say the word.


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## ian (Apr 14, 2020)

labor of love said:


> If you wanna borrow the 6000S just say the word.



Thanks for the offer! That’s the one I have — got the Gesshin (soaking) stone set, which includes that one. I was wondering whether I was reading the stone all wrong when I read the review above, because I also thought that was the high grit side of the combo. Thanks for straightening me out.


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## Malcolm Johnson (Apr 15, 2020)

Looks like I need the jns red aoto... that’s exactly what I want. Once I get in a more permanent residence situation I’ll pick one up and keep it soaked


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## kayman67 (Apr 15, 2020)

For the *Red Aoto* I did an epoxy coating (had to right away because it had an accident when I got it, but would have done it at some point regardless). This one also had the hairline cracks along the edges when I got it, but with the epoxy in place, no ill effect so far. 
Mine behaves as a true splash and go. I would consider that after a week of it not being used, would be as dry as possible here. If I spray water on it, it will stay there for some time. Rather interesting behaviour since the surface seems porous enough and it feels soft and creamy while using. 
But I did something that changed that softness for a while. The working side had a part soaked in epoxy and got into for about 2mm. I'm not sure I would be able to make this happen again the same way. I would have expected it to be ruined, but something else happened. The stone transformed into a more Glass like behaving stone. It worked pretty much the same, but the feedback changed into a Glass 4k HC type and it became highly resistant to dishing.


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## Doffen (Apr 15, 2020)

Thank you for shearing. I think I need a JNS red aoto now...


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## esoo (Apr 15, 2020)

Interesting to read this. I have the Shapton Pro 5K which I bought originally for razor sharpening. While it seems to do the job on knives, I do not like the feel - too hard and smooth. I've been looking to replace it and the Shapton Glass 4k or 6K are my prime contenders right now (as the pricing where I am on those is the best)


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## JBroida (Apr 16, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> Hi Jon,
> 
> First off, I'm very happy you guys are open again for online sales...
> 
> ...


Honestly, you're right... i should probably update all of the resinoid based stone descriptions on the website... i will do this as soon as i can find the time to do so. Its not a bad idea at all.


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## kayman67 (Apr 16, 2020)

Let's see some other usual or lesser usual suspects. Might help someone, who knows. 


Obviously the *Choseras* are popular for their speed, finish and feedback, but less loved for being prone to some cracking. I tried to handle this negative side with epoxy. Haven't seen any performance degradation. 


Both *3000* and *5000* are well known, but I think the 3000 is more used since it is very good for maintenance. It's even able to put an edge back without much of an effort. 


Alongside the Choseras, there are the *Kramer* stones. Now, Kramer stones are Chosera based, but not exactly the same. 

When new, the *Kramer 3000* needs lapping and usually the surface needs some conditioning, while Chosera simply does not. This made some reviews completely miss what Kramer can do.

Kramer seemed more aggressive with small bevels for some reason and with a toothier edge, while the Chosera seemed to polish wider bevels more evenly and finer.

Kramer works very well as a maintenance stone. Fast, easy to carry and so on. But also needs some maintenance of its own. That dressing stone makes sense here. 

*Kramer 5000* seems a bit harder than Chosera. Might be subjective, I don't know. Just feels somewhat harder. It's also loading to some degree, while Chosera not really. So again, Kramer requires some surface maintenance. And again Chosera offers a more even finish the wider the bevel gets. 

All of these are splash and go. The Kramer stones are also prone to some surface cracks, but it's been two years maybe and I can't feel them at all. 

All are very nice stones for razors. 


*Norton 4000*

These days, the Norton 4000 is considered by most as a 2000 grit stone. It gives a toothy edge like no other 2000. Imagine that. 

It's not a particularly pleasant to use soaking stone and feels more like sand. Older versions were different. 

I'd say could still be useful for putting a toothy edge on some knives, with a few passes, but since it needs soaking... hard call. 


*Naniwa Hayabusa 4000*

This stone feels like a mix between old polishing stones and newer ones (on the Chosera line). 

This is not without problems. Some people reported cracks, even splits. That's something to consider. With mine, I haven't seen anything after extensive usage, but did see others. 

A very quick soaking makes it better, but for a quick work, it is not necessary. It is considered splash and go. JNS 6000 Matukusuyama takes/needs a lot more water than this and that one is supposed to be splash and go also.

It's great with carbon and I've seen it doing amazing polishing. But wasn't the same with stainless (even the feeling was kinda off by comparison). 

I will put it next to the JNS as I feel that in general it might be one or the other. The JNS is a better stone for consistent easy contrast and finish with jigane. Hagane was pretty much equal. I do prefer the Hayabusa for polishing, let's say an O1 blade. Also proved to be a great intermediate stone for razors. JNS not so much.


*JNS 6000 Matukusuyama*

Easiest finish and contrast once it gets the water it needs to work and build the slurry. It does so, fast and on its own. To get the same slurry from Hayabusa, I would have to make it using a dressing stone (not really a minus here, as this allows for some different control). 

I don't think I have anything bad to say about this stone, as long as the mud is managed a bit. I loved it immediately.

Both stones exhibit some loading problems when starting.


*Shapton Glass 4000 and 6000 HC*

Grit aside, these stones are like a hard velvet. They are called soft/softer, but that's softer than the HR ones (and they are). The "soft part" is nothing like real soft water stones. So don't expect that when you read "soft" and get them. Given this hardness, bevels need to be perfect for them to do their best. These can polish and refine the edge to a very different level.


*Naniwa Super Stone or the Sharpening Stone 5000*

Soft stone (this is a soft stone) with great polishing capabilities. Nothing much to say beyond. Maybe just that it needs very good technique not to mess up the edge. I guess that's something important to mention  


*Suehiro Rika 5000*

Best for last? Maybe. Looks like (almost) everyone's to go stone for finishing most wide bevels, but not only. Or should be everyone's? I think everyone should use it at least a couple of times. It's a softer stone on its own, but feels harder while used. Doesn't require a lot of soaking to get a great feedback, creamy and it's very effective, fast, with no effort at all. But I might have ruined this for me since I got the JNS 6000. Price wise, Rika is a great deal though and a great stone. 


There are other stones, but I will mention just one more.

One that is from here, technically a 4k stone, but there's more to it






製品情報 | ナニワ研磨工業株式会社


当社は、研削および関連材料、ダイヤモンド工具などの生産から販売までを、一環体制で行う製造・卸会社です。




www.naniwa-kenma.co.jp





Mine is really hard. Also very very aggressive. And completely removes any traces of contrast, like it was never there. Never seen something similar. 

Feels nothing like Chosera. Feels hard and aggressive, with bite. So I guess it is a tool stone, as I've read here the hard ones are made for tools. 

Still interesting for knives, from my perspective. I get this scratch pattern with a bright polish and a very nice edge.


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## esoo (Apr 17, 2020)

esoo said:


> Interesting to read this. I have the Shapton Pro 5K which I bought originally for razor sharpening. While it seems to do the job on knives, I do not like the feel - too hard and smooth. I've been looking to replace it and the Shapton Glass 4k or 6K are my prime contenders right now (as the pricing where I am on those is the best)



Welp based on the two local vendor, one having the 4K and the other the 6K, grabbed the 6K as it was from the better known to me vendor. Shouldn't be too bad to jump to off a Shapton Pro 1K that I have as the step before.


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## vk2109 (Apr 18, 2020)

Great reviews !!




kayman67 said:


> Obviously the *Choseras* are popular for their speed, finish and feedback, but less loved for being prone to some cracking. I tried to handle this negative side with epoxy. Haven't seen any performance degradation.
> Both *3000* and *5000* are well known, but I think the 3000 is more used since it is very good for maintenance. It's even able to put an edge back without much of an effort.



For the chosera 3000 by maintenance, do you mean just to give sharpening on a knives that is still ok ? if you do so...do you finish with some higher grit 
or just leather strop ? 
Sorry asking this as having in past 3 stones and got a 3000 want to see where to make most use it ( 320-800-3000-5000 setup)

Thankx


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## kayman67 (Apr 18, 2020)

With most knives and general usage scenarios, I don't think you really need a higher grit after this stone. You just keep working.


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## Cliff (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm curious about lacquering the sides of a stone that may need extensive soaking, if not perma-soaking. Is it an issue? Does one decide to lacquer and use as splash-and-go or perma-soak?


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## kayman67 (Jul 2, 2020)

Sealing stones, did I botch this?


I’ve got a few stones that leak water and make a huge mess, one Aoto and one Sigma 240. I decided to seal them and read a bunch of threads about doing it, used spar urethane. The Aoto seems to have gone about as expected, but the Sigma sucked up a huge amount of the stuff and took a long time to...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





See this. Although fine stones are not as porous, they can still "eat" a few mm depending on what you use.


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## Knife2meatu (Jul 2, 2020)

@Cliff
I sealed a King 1k with Spar Urethane, and it worked very well. I'm fairly certain the trick is to only apply a little at first, not trying to get a 'wet' looking coat, and let that dry fully before adding more.

If I recall correctly, it took two light coats before the surface would hold the urethane and start looking glossy. I remember then adding several more coats to build up a thicker layer.

After permasoaking the stone for a year, the extra layers which I'd added because I liked the glossy look and thought more would be better -- those outer layers softened, turned white, and were prone to flaking off. When I finally scrubbed off the scabby layer, I found that some base layer is actually holding up very well, looks nice, and keeps the stone from passing water as intended.

If I had to guess, I think I could've gotten the thicker coating to work better with much longer curing times between coats, but it hardly seems necessary considering I'm actually completely happy with the accidental result.

Next stones I'll do I'm thinking I'll only do 2 light coats, and not be looking for that glossy looking finish before calling it good. A good long curing time before watering them again might help also.

I should say, I did a test where I sealed a porous synthetic stone -- similar to to King Deluxe -- saturated it with water and measured how long it took to dry out: Compared to before it was sealed, this very small stone took *weeks* longer to completely dry out. Just a thought; might apply to your case, might not.


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## panda (Jul 3, 2020)

gesshin 4k soaker
the best. the end

FAST as hell, cuts more like a 2k, great feedback, doesnt load, wears slow, leaves awesome toothy edge. i cant believe i waited this long to get one, it checks off every single box.


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## M1k3 (Jul 3, 2020)

panda said:


> gesshin 4k soaker
> the best. the end
> 
> FAST as hell, cuts more like a 2k, great feedback, doesnt load, wears slow, leaves awesome toothy edge. i cant believe i waited this long to get one, it checks off every single box.


Is that the same one Ian got?


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## panda (Jul 3, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Is that the same one Ian got?


yes


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## Cliff (Jul 3, 2020)

Knife2meatu said:


> @Cliff
> I sealed a King 1k with Spar Urethane, and it worked very well. I'm fairly certain the trick is to only apply a little at first, not trying to get a 'wet' looking coat, and let that dry fully before adding more.
> 
> If I recall correctly, it took two light coats before the surface would hold the urethane and start looking glossy. I remember then adding several more coats to build up a thicker layer.
> ...




Thanks so much. This is extremely helpful. I just got the JNS 800 and red Aoto and am trying to figure out how to approach them. I'm in an apartment, and permasoaking is a major inconvenience, though not impossible. Leaving things on a kitchen counter for weeks is a deal breaker--I'd rather get a King 800 and a real Aoto. 

I think I'll lacquer the red Aoto and try it as a splash-and-go. It's the 800 that's trickier, but I gather less fragile?


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## esoo (Jul 3, 2020)

Cliff said:


> Thanks so much. This is extremely helpful. I just got the JNS 800 and red Aoto and am trying to figure out how to approach them. I'm in an apartment, and permasoaking is a major inconvenience, though not impossible. Leaving things on a kitchen counter for weeks is a deal breaker--I'd rather get a King 800 and a real Aoto.
> 
> I think I'll lacquer the red Aoto and try it as a splash-and-go. It's the 800 that's trickier, but I gather less fragile?



You should be able to find a container not much larger than your stones to soak them in. Or as an alternative, soak your stones in the toilet tank.


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## Cliff (Jul 3, 2020)

It's true -- there are options for it. I guess if they are really that much better permasoaked, that's what I'll do.


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## esoo (Jul 3, 2020)

I'm looking it perma soak a stone myself for the first time and Im' thinking of a container like this: https://www.amazon.ca/Rubbermaid-1856059-Modular-Cereal-Keeper/dp/B00BEUDXRW?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_1


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## esoo (Jul 3, 2020)

Or something like this: https://www.amazon.ca/LOCK-Airtight...R7PBWX6QRKP&psc=1&refRID=JC675FP07R7PBWX6QRKP

Should be able to store 3-4 stones perma-soaked in that, and I've yet to see a kitchen sink that shouldn't be able to fit under. Add something like the Knifewear Bamboo sink bridge, and you're golden.

At least that's my plan.


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## Cliff (Jul 3, 2020)

I'd need something bigger than the first one. The JNS stones are enormous, and space is already at a premium. Then what do you do if you're away for an extended time? It's a drag.


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## esoo (Jul 3, 2020)

I've never perma-soaked, but I recently borrowed a Rika from a co-worker who perma-soaks all his stones he can. He say he just puts vinegar in the soaking water and never had an issue.


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## Cliff (Jul 3, 2020)

That's a good idea


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## M1k3 (Jul 3, 2020)

Cliff said:


> Thanks so much. This is extremely helpful. I just got the JNS 800 and red Aoto and am trying to figure out how to approach them. I'm in an apartment, and permasoaking is a major inconvenience, though not impossible. Leaving things on a kitchen counter for weeks is a deal breaker--I'd rather get a King 800 and a real Aoto.
> 
> I think I'll lacquer the red Aoto and try it as a splash-and-go. It's the 800 that's trickier, but I gather less fragile?


Put it in the water tank of your toilet. 1 or 2 stones will be fine. After that you'll need to find something else.


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## GeneH (Jul 18, 2020)

Are you describing the Gesshin full size white/pink 1k / 6k combo?


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