# Misen Kickstarter Knife



## wisew

Very curious to see KKF's opinions on this - the Misen Chef's Knife was just announced today via Kickstarter / Serious Eats - it features AUS-8 steel and an almost absurdly low price ($65, or $55 if you back it on Kickstarter). What do you make of this?


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## El Pescador

The bolster might be an issue to sharpen the knife down the road. AUS8 wouldn't be my steel of choice for a knife like this either. I cringed and decided I had seen enough with the knife on the marble board with the bread. I'd skip it and hit Ikea if you're interested in a bargain knife. I got a kick out of the hipster dinner party though.


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## HHH Knives

"AUS8(Aichi) - Mid range performance stainless steel. Sometimes referred as A8, which isn't correct. More often it's called 8A, which is a common abbreviation. Similar to 440B steel. AUS8A is the same steel, except it's annealed. A stands for Annealed, that was confirmed by Aichi sales representative." 

From my favorite steel site!! Zknives.

Thats not to say 8A wont work as a knife. It just wont be "superior" to some of the other knives its being compared to on KS


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## James

At that price point, it's competing with the FKM and Tojiro DP and those two are a helluva lot of knife for the money. Interesting to see how it'd compare.


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## Roger

It doesn't look bad. The pricing does not make it a bargain, far from it. If you know what you are looking for, you can get that kind of quality for around half the price, without the 7 months+ wait. Italian knifes like the Sanelli brand are great and not expensive, just for an example.


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## gic

Why would anyone get this over a tojiro dp, makes no sense. Tojiro uses a better core steel and is cheaper


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## Roger

gic said:


> Why would anyone get this over a tojiro dp, makes no sense. Tojiro uses a better core steel and is cheaper



Because they (the backers) don't know better and they love to gulp on that marketing laced granulated sugar. The product is clearly aimed at a public who doesn't know much about cutlery. I think it is kind of pretentious from misen to say they make (will make, cause it's not produced yet) a better knife than everyone else and for a better price than the competition when they actually probably don't know that much about cutlery (they certainly don't even have a decade of experience in that domain, unlike hundreds of other brands).


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## Marko Tsourkan

Roger said:


> Because they (the backers) don't know better and they love to gulp on that marketing laced granulated sugar. The product is clearly aimed at a public who doesn't know much about cutlery. I think it is kind of pretentious from misen to say they make (will make, cause it's not produced yet) a better knife than everyone else and for a better price than the competition when they actually probably don't know that much about cutlery (they certainly don't even have a decade of experience in that domain, unlike hundreds of other brands).



Hmm.. no dirt under finger nails )))

At this price, the knife has to be produced in China or elsewhere in the third world, no doubts about it. Not saying it's not a good knife, just throwing my two cents.


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## Dave Martell

The bolster thing looks like Henckels new Pro line...
"Zwilling Pro's comfortable smooth bolster designed by architect Matteo Thun"


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## Noodle Soup

They didn't exactly reinvent the wheel. I don't understand the whole "go fund me" concept for this knife. Seems like more of a scam than anything.


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## MAS4T0

It looks like they've reinvented the tomato rather than the knife; seriously what was that long green tubular tomato at 1.40?


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## Bill13

My problem is the profile. They mention how German knives have a lot of belly for cutting with a rocking motion and Japanese knives are flatter for push cutting; they went with a hybrid profile. To me this means it's not optimized for either; or will do everything poorly.

That said getting people interested in their knives and it being slightly harder than German steel are both pluses.


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## Lizzardborn

Serious Eats have been whoring themselves quite a bit lately. Their new owner is trying to monetize them aggressively. I know that making money is important, but they have degraded to blatant pitching of products really good, really fast.

Things I don't like - the name. It is obvious play towards Misono. Even their logo is similar. The pitch video - oh come on. The fact that it puts that just a few days after Serious Eats had an article "In defense of cheap knives". They never mention any of the dimensions of the knives. After all that is not important.

Things I like - putting sharp knives in the hands of many people is a good endeavor. It is not hipster overpriced. If they keep their end of the sharpening service - it could be a good product. Won't back.


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## AllanP

what the hell am i looking at. this is such bizarre and dishonest marketing

more value=more carbon=more hardness


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## Lizzardborn

AllanP said:


> what the hell am i looking at. this is such bizarre and dishonest marketing
> 
> more value=more carbon=more hardness



They should try with cast iron knives. Even better - charcoal ones. They are pure carbon.


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## James

At any rate, MOST likely better than cutco right?


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## Mucho Bocho

I have to laugh when anyone says they reinvented the kitchen knife. The statement Best when it comes to kitchen knives makes my eyes roll.


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## Timthebeaver

Fugly, crap profile, mediocre alloy. 

As mentioned, only a fool would consider this over a Tojiro of Fujiwara FKM. I'd take a (cheaper) Victorinox Rosewood as well.

Calling it "Misen" is just taking the pi$$, as also mentioned.


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## Dave Martell

*$156,969*
*pledged of $25,000 goal

:bigeek:*


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## Bill13

Makes you think -WTFAIDW, doesn't it Dave.


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## Dave Martell

Bill13 said:


> Makes you think -WTFAIDW, doesn't it Dave.




Yup it does.


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## icanhaschzbrgr

mean old KKF

The amount of interest for that Kickstarter campaign clearly shows that people are interested in good affordable knives. Where Misen would be that knife  that's the question we could answer once we try it. 

I don't really understand the complaints here what's wrong with AUS-8? Fujiwara FKM uses it and it works well. Maybe not as well as some more expensive steels, but pretty well non the less. Judging by their blueprints, the profile appears quite workable with some flat part heel to midblade. Well made bolster that shouldn't interfere with sharpening. Good price for a 210mm knife (just a bit tad cheaper than Fujiwara FKM). 

If Misen manages to come up with something similar to Fujiwara FKM then it's win for everybody. There are about 2800 backers right now and I think it's a good that they'll have some better knives in their kitchen (or otherwise they would probably continue to use what they have, or paid $$$ for Shuns).


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## Lizzardborn

If by pointing out deceptive branding (I genuinely thought it was misono/serious eats collaboration), misleading marketing, lack of basic grasp of what carbon does in a steel, or whatever they think a "blade angle" is (they do fix it to edge angle, which is more clear), is being mean - we could use some more meanness in all spheres of our lives.

Will it be a good knife - probably. Any piece of thinly grind steel with proper heat treatment will be a decent knife. Will it "reinvent and redefine" the category - doubt it.


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## kenji

Lizzardborn said:


> Serious Eats have been whoring themselves quite a bit lately. Their new owner is trying to monetize them aggressively. I know that making money is important, but they have degraded to blatant pitching of products really good, really fast.



This is Kenji from Serious Eats here. I appreciate your concern about the site, but actually the new owner of the site (Fexy Media) has had exactly zero input in editorial decisions, and as a policy, editorial and ad sales are separate teams that don't communicate other than for basic logistical reasons. Misen and Serious Eats have no relationship at all (and to be frank, as a kickstarted company that was just trying to raise $25K, they wouldn't have had the funds necessary to advertise on Serious Eats even if they wanted to). Our ads are always clearly labeled and put together by a different team. Editorial content is created by the editorial team and is uninfluenced by any kind of externalities.

I wrote about this knife because I tested it myself and thought it was a great product. I admit I forgot to include dimensions in the review. I am in the middle of a book tour for my first book (yay!) and I wrote the piece more hastily than I would have liked, but I wanted to get the piece out before their kickstarter early backer period ended so our readers could have a shot at the $45 and $55 backer prices for the knife.

As far as some specific questions people had, in comparison to a tojiro DP, I find the design to be much more conducive to your typical western cook. It is light and nimble enough to do precision tip and chopping work with, but it also has a deeper curve than a tojiro, which makes rock chops and your average western cook's slices more easy. It's a hybrid shape that leans closer to Western.

I also prefer the bolster design with its back slop that makes gripping the blade more comfortable and easier. I see many home cooks who have trouble getting used to the blade grip, and I think this design will help them get there more intuitively. One of my other favorite mass market knives, the Misono UX-10 has a similar bolster design, which is what draws me to it in my drawer.

The metal is harder than some german steel, softer than some other Japanese, but I think it strikes a good balance between not being overly brittle and being easy enough to sharpen well. You always have to consider the needs of someone who doesn't think about or isn't willing to sharpen a knife themselves and how long that edge is gonna last them. This one is a good balance.

The name is "Misen." I thought it was a reference to "mise en place." I'm not sure where it actually came from. The similarity to misono I guess is there, but it wasn't my first thought.

ANYHOW, as someone who's actually held it in my hands and has been using it regularly, I can tell you that at least for me, it's super comfortable, easy to manipulate, and really that's what matters most when it comes to a chef's knife.


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## gic

This is an excellent post and I'm glad that Kenji took the time off to do it. In particular, I believe strongly people shouldn't make accusations of a lack of editorial independence on other sites without a lot of good evidence as the barrier between editorial and marketing is pretty important at content sites and usually quite well enforced. (I've been involved with some content sites myself and have many friends who are still actively involved with them.)


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## Lefty

I appreciate Kenji chiming in, and I don't really find any issue with this knife as a good option for the masses, other than their little as being a bit "infomercial-y". But aren't they all?

I'd try one and likely think it was pretty solid, no doubt... It's an attractive knife, all be told. 

Where is it produced? Did we ever find out?


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## Bill13

kenji said:


> This is Kenji from Serious Eats here. I appreciate your concern about the site, but actually the new owner of the site (Fexy Media) has had exactly zero input in editorial decisions, and as a policy, editorial and ad sales are separate teams that don't communicate other than for basic logistical reasons. Misen and Serious Eats have no relationship at all (and to be frank, as a kickstarted company that was just trying to raise $25K, they wouldn't have had the funds necessary to advertise on Serious Eats even if they wanted to). Our ads are always clearly labeled and put together by a different team. Editorial content is created by the editorial team and is uninfluenced by any kind of externalities.
> 
> I wrote about this knife because I tested it myself and thought it was a great product. I admit I forgot to include dimensions in the review. I am in the middle of a book tour for my first book (yay!) and I wrote the piece more hastily than I would have liked, but I wanted to get the piece out before their kickstarter early backer period ended so our readers could have a shot at the $45 and $55 backer prices for the knife.
> 
> As far as some specific questions people had, in comparison to a tojiro DP, I find the design to be much more conducive to your typical western cook. It is light and nimble enough to do precision tip and chopping work with, but it also has a deeper curve than a tojiro, which makes rock chops and your average western cook's slices more easy. It's a hybrid shape that leans closer to Western.
> 
> I also prefer the bolster design with its back slop that makes gripping the blade more comfortable and easier. I see many home cooks who have trouble getting used to the blade grip, and I think this design will help them get there more intuitively. One of my other favorite mass market knives, the Misono UX-10 has a similar bolster design, which is what draws me to it in my drawer.
> 
> The metal is harder than some german steel, softer than some other Japanese, but I think it strikes a good balance between not being overly brittle and being easy enough to sharpen well. You always have to consider the needs of someone who doesn't think about or isn't willing to sharpen a knife themselves and how long that edge is gonna last them. This one is a good balance.
> 
> The name is "Misen." I thought it was a reference to "mise en place." I'm not sure where it actually came from. The similarity to misono I guess is there, but it wasn't my first thought.
> 
> ANYHOW, as someone who's actually held it in my hands and has been using it regularly, I can tell you that at least for me, it's super comfortable, easy to manipulate, and really that's what matters most when it comes to a chef's knife.



Kenji,

Nice first post and I hope to see many more!! It's nice to read your thoughts on this and your point that this knife will probably be much better than what many now own is an important point.

Also want to say love your website; your pizza steel article, and my subsequent purchase of one, has drastically improved my pizza, thanks!


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## wisew

Wow, thanks for the post Kenji!

I think this is an interesting project, and I'd consider picking one up, but I have one main concern (which is really a general concern with all manufacturing Kickstarter projects) - Kenji received an awesome prototype, but there's no guarantee that the same quality will apply once these are mass-produced. Luckily they've raised so much money that I highly doubt that lack of funds would be a constraint here, but overworking their craftspeople could be.


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## Nick_Hall

Assuming the heat treatment is done well, and assuming that the grinds are done correctly by the unknown manufacturer, it's not a bad value. For $45, it' would be a knife upgrade for the 99.9% of the population who don't spend days off using a micrometer to measure the distal tapers on their 7 gyutos. 

Whenever I use knives at someone's house, I always think "now I know what to get them for Christmas". $45 is a the right price for that sort of thing. 

Where I get hung up is the part of the value proposition where you need to wait 6 months and then hope the manufacturer gets HT and grind right. All things being equal, I'd much rather pay Tojiro an extra $5 and have it in my hands in 48hrs.

You have to give these guys credit though. They decided to build something, had the marketing prowess and follow through to pull it off, and they're going to make their vision a reality over the next 6 months. I respect that in and of itself. I'm half-inclined to buy this knife for the same reason I always buy lemonade from kids with lemonade stands; even if the lemonade is a bit sour, I still feel pretty good about the transaction.


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## oldcookie

I think we just have to keep in mind most people on this forum are not Misen's target market, and from their current project status, I don't think Misen would miss us much.

P.S. Good to see Kenji clear things up. He's that one that got me to back Anova early on, such a good deal.


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## Pensacola Tiger

I ordered one out of sheer curiosity. When I get it, I'll organize a passaround if there's any interest.


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## Dave Martell

I think it's interesting that none of the knifemakers here have thought of doing such a project through Kickstarter themselves. So is it that we never thought of it or that we knew that something like this would never kick start without being announced and endorsed from an online presence such as Serious Eats? 

Let's face it folks, if Misen knives did this themselves, without SE's endorsement, the pledging would be around the $50 mark vs $287,785 on day 2 of the announcement. It's who you know in this world - that's reality.

Having said all that, I'm happy for them and for us too. They're bringing a better quality (or at least the idea of) knife to the masses and this sure can't hurt the rest of us in the biz. The more people that get interested in better knives means the more this whole thing can grow for us all to enjoy. It's just like Shun & Global on the bottom end feeding noobs for all these years who go on to bigger and better.


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## RefGent

With these kickstarter companies it is important to be wary about longterm quality. Many are getting things made in Chinese factories that produce initial runs at very high quality levels and then once a small company like these gets comfortable, will lower quality in various ways to cut costs. Established companies are good at making sure quality controls stay high, but smaller startups might not do so well. With China made knives I've seen and heard horror stories such as lower hardness levels than what is promised to speed up production. I will be really interested to see how the Misen knives hold up and if we are still talking about them a year or two down the road.


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## sharptools

The other thing with kickstarter is a lot of the times they don't quite get the costs right. This leads to either an increase in price, or inability to deliver. I'd be surprised if the price stays at $65.


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## sharptools

> As far as some specific questions people had, in comparison to a tojiro DP, I find the design to be much more conducive to your typical western cook. It is light and nimble enough to do precision tip and chopping work with, but it also has a deeper curve than a tojiro, which makes rock chops and your average western cook's slices more easy. It's a hybrid shape that leans closer to Western.



With the way I cut, the profile sounds like it'll be horrible for me but for a lot of people I know, this sounds like it'll be pretty good. I wonder what the geometry would be like and how it'll perform in terms of stiction.


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## Keith Sinclair

Dave Martell said:


> The bolster thing looks like Henckels new Pro line...
> "Zwilling Pro's comfortable smooth bolster designed by architect Matteo Thun"



A lot of culinary students have knives that looks like this Henckles. Radicle upsweep at the tip, including some shuns. Show them how well a Japanese blade push cuts, chops, slices, & rocking from the tip. The tip on some of these knives are worthless for even rocking. Makes me wonder who designs these things. Sorry sound a little harsh take a Japan flatter profile any day period.

The bolster looks comfortable for pinch grip. On the handle side when sharpening because the thick bolster goes out on spine you have to angle the knife quite a bit to do proper heel sharpening. That's why some times you see high heels on knives because the protruding bolster hits the stone. These knives with a little technique can be sharpened correctly.


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## rick alen

keithsaltydog said:


> A lot of culinary students have knives that looks like this Henckles. Radicle upsweep at the tip, including some shuns. Show them how well a Japanese blade push cuts, chops, slices, & rocking from the tip. The tip on some of these knives are worthless for even rocking. Makes me wonder who designs these things. Sorry sound a little harsh take a Japan flatter profile any day period.
> 
> The bolster looks comfortable for pinch grip. On the handle side when sharpening because the thick bolster goes out on spine you have to angle the knife quite a bit to do proper heel sharpening. That's why some times you see high heels on knives because the protruding bolster hits the stone. These knives with a little technique can be sharpened correctly.



Took the words right out of my mouth. Just another German chef knife, ie lousy geometry, but with moderately better steel. It does not in any way reflect what a so-called "Western" style cook needs, or necessarily wants. It boggles the mind that they already sold almost 5K of them. It will be interesting to see if they are also as thick behind the edge as a German knife.


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## malexthekid

This is what i don't get with this. Why are "western" profiles better for rocking? I get some of the super flat gyuto profiles could make it feel harder but i rock chop with all my gyutos (ginga, blazen, itou, ealy) to name a few and have no problems. These days i honestly prefer rocking with them than my old scanpan chef.

Now some will have a go at me for daring to do that but as a home cook i don't have the technique to mince herbs without rocking and i have no issues with chipping. Just make sure i keep light pressure on the tip and step the blade do i don't apply much lateral pressure on the edge.


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## Lefty

malexthekid said:


> This is what i don't get with this. Why are "western" profiles better for rocking? I get some of the super flat gyuto profiles could make it feel harder but i rock chop with all my gyutos (ginga, blazen, itou, ealy) to name a few and have no problems. These days i honestly prefer rocking with them than my old scanpan chef.
> 
> Now some will have a go at me for daring to do that but as a home cook i don't have the technique to mince herbs without rocking and i have no issues with chipping. Just make sure i keep light pressure on the tip and step the blade do i don't apply much lateral pressure on the edge.


I use the "French Technique" a lot, which is a rock with a forward glide. Japanese knives (and those with similar profiles) work beautifully for this. I always wonder when people will figure out that a chef knife is not a hammer, no matter how cool it looks on YouTube....


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## James

Lefty said:


> I use the "French Technique" a lot, which is a rock with a forward glide. Japanese knives (and those with similar profiles) work beautifully for this. I always wonder when people will figure out that a chef knife is not a hammer, no matter how cool it looks on YouTube....



I never figured out how people did that; I usually incorporate a little rock otherwise I get accordion cuts up the wazoo. Nice to see you here, Kenji and thanks for clearing up a lot of the questions and providing a comparison to the Tojiro DP.


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## _PixelNinja

Lefty said:


> I use the "French Technique" a lot, which is a rock with a forward glide. Japanese knives (and those with similar profiles) work beautifully for this. I always wonder when people will figure out that a chef knife is not a hammer, no matter how cool it looks on YouTube....


Seeing the hammering tends to make me cringe when it it is perfectly possible to push cut without doing so; using more arm to 'kiss' the board. I also feel there is less strain on the wrist with this technique.


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## Dave Martell

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Hmm.. no dirt under finger nails )))
> 
> At this price, the knife has to be produced in China or elsewhere in the third world, no doubts about it. Not saying it's not a good knife, just throwing my two cents.




From their FAQ on the Kickstarter page...



> Aside from the quality of the materials we use, its incredibly important for us as a company to have a responsible supply chain process. Throughout the last 18 months, we either met with or visited over 70 manufacturers across three continents, and conducted 12 separate factory visits prior to determining who to partner with.
> 
> While two of the knife makers we met with stood out from the pack in terms of quality of work (by a wide margin), one in particular also demonstrated exceptional consistency. From the very first prototype we made with our eventual partner to the last, the quality of their work was nothing short of excellent.
> 
> *Our knives will be produced by an incredibly talented manufacturer located a few hours outside of Guangzhou, China.* We spent nearly a week there earlier this year and conducted a thorough audit. While we had already intended to have strong boots on ground during the manufacturing process to ensure the quality & consistency of our knives, due to the success of the campaign we know we will need to increase this presence.
> 
> Last updated: Wed, Sep 23 2015 9:03 PM EDT


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## Dave Martell

*$344,779*
*pledged of $25,000 goal*
*
27*
*days to go*


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## daveb

My lack of enthusiasm for this endeavor pretty much centers on they're bringing nothing new to the table - except a different marketing and promotion strategy. The knife itself appears to be a yawner. But Kickstarter has been around just long enough to have the cachet of being "cool" - and I think the success they are enjoying stems from participants wanting to be seen as trend setters.

Do appreciate Kenji joining the thread.


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## AllanP

Dave Martell said:


> From their FAQ on the Kickstarter page...



that's pretty much where everything "made in China" is made, from Nikes to IPhone parts and anything you can probably think of.

There's no shortage of workers there that's for sure


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## Keith Sinclair

_PixelNinja said:


> Seeing the hammering tends to make me cringe when it it is perfectly possible to push cut without doing so; using more arm to 'kiss' the board. I also feel there is less strain on the wrist with this technique.



Totally agree forward push cut used more than any other & had some pretty thin mono carbons over the years.


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## Noodle Soup

Seems like about twice as much as a Chinese knife should cost. The big Viet super market in Portland, OR carries a line of similar pro-looking Chinese knives that run $10-$25 depending on model. I've found them to actually be pretty good for the price.


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## Matus

They do know how to make business it seems. It is usually not easy for no-name company to raise $300k+ for kitchen knives - prior anyone has actually used and reviewed one. But hey - I might actually rather buy one of their knives instead of a Wusthof or Zwilinge that costs much more and has 55 HRC (I bought one of each in the past for the family members - that stuff neither takes nor holds a decent edge) blades. So for a low-experience user this actually may be a good buy. But of course - I am not a low-experience user anymore, so I'll pass


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## gic

I just noticed they offer lifetime sharpening, I wonder how they will implement it? If they pay postage back and only require postage to them, they had better hope few people will take advantage of it or their business model goes to ^&^%$


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## Lefty

Noodle Soup said:


> Seems like about twice as much as a Chinese knife should cost. The big Viet super market in Portland, OR carries a line of similar pro-looking Chinese knives that run $10-$25 depending on model. I've found them to actually be pretty good for the price.



I'd love to see one of these. Honestly, one of my stupid favourite things to do is peruse the kitchen equipment aisles of Asian grocery stores.


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## Noodle Soup

It is funny how you trip over something constantly until you want to find it. Wasn't able to find my 12-inch butcher from this company but look up Update International. Forged butcher knife for $13.00 at one restaurant supply house. It is certainly worth that price even if it isn't made by some 16th generation ex-sword maker.


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## sharptools

James said:


> I never figured out how people did that; I usually incorporate a little rock otherwise I get accordion cuts up the wazoo. Nice to see you here, Kenji and thanks for clearing up a lot of the questions and providing a comparison to the Tojiro DP.



Maybe you aren't pushing forward enough? It is almost like a forward slice. If the blade on a knife doesn't have a long enough flat area I'm generally forced to do this or a short pull cut to avoid accordion cuts.


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## dands

Dave Martell said:


> *$344,779*
> *pledged of $25,000 goal*
> *
> 27*
> *days to go*



a little bit of me died seeing this Dave... Thanks.


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## Dave Martell

Yeah well here's some more for ya... 

*$384,056*
*pledged of $25,000 goal
*
*25*
*days to go*


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## oldcookie

Dave Martell said:


> Yeah well here's some more for ya...
> 
> *$384,056*
> *pledged of $25,000 goal
> *
> *25*
> *days to go*



It's not so crazy, I saw this jacket on Indiegogo this morning. A hoodie that cost* $149*, and has raised * $10,024,134*USD so far....


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## Dave Martell

Off to buy a hoodie....


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## dands

Dave Martell said:


> Off to buy a hoodie....



Can I just sell my house and live in this hoodie??


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## Dave Martell

*$420,572*
*pledged of $25,000 goal
*
*23*
*days to go

*


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## icanhaschzbrgr

Which kind of proofs that normal people wants good kitchen knife. And other places seems to fail in delivering good knives to normal users. JCK and their Fujiwara FKM offering has been on the market for years, yet nobody outside of knife communities heard about them, and Misen managed to get enough attention. 
Instead of bashing them, we could learn from them.


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## aboynamedsuita

Hopefully Misen isn't overwhelmed and can deliver without cutting corners. I wonder if they would have expected like 17x pledged.


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## Noodle Soup

My guess is all they need to do now is slap a half million down on table of a Chinese factory and they will ship them something like a maritime shipping container full of knives back in a fairly short time. Pretty much the way it works these days with outdoor cutlery.


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## rick alen

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Which kind of proofs that normal people wants good kitchen knife. And other places seems to fail in delivering good knives to normal users. JCK and their Fujiwara FKM offering has been on the market for years, yet nobody outside of knife communities heard about them, and Misen managed to get enough attention.
> Instead of bashing them, we could learn from them.




Sounds like it's time for some enterprising real knife aficionados to get moving. Hire a cheap cad illustrator, put a different handle on a Fujiwara and you're all set. Of course the Misen will likely go not much further than the Kickstarter numbers. You need a lot more money than that to reach significant numbers. As I understand Shun had to buy Kershaw to effectively penetrate the US maerket.


Rick


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## Dardeau

If only they teamed up and put Serious Eats with the lefty/Pierre knife...


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## Noodle Soup

rick alen said:


> Sounds like it's time for some enterprising real knife aficionados to get moving. Hire a cheap cad illustrator, put a different handle on a Fujiwara and you're all set. Of course the Misen will likely go not much further than the Kickstarter numbers. You need a lot more money than that to reach significant numbers. As I understand Shun had to buy Kershaw to effectively penetrate the US maerket.
> 
> 
> Rick



Far as I know Shun always was part of Kai Cutlery the same as Kershaw. Pete Kershaw was just an American name for their marketing purposes. (Yes, I know there really is a Pete Kershaw, we know each other.) I don't know if they still do or not but Kai used to offer a full line of food service and meat packing knives. They were fairly plain but I have a 300 mm Kai chef knife I think has pretty good steel in it. Just not the sort of thing a Sur la Table buyer would be interested in though.


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## Dave Martell

*$551,739*
*pledged of $25,000 goal
*
*17*
*days to go*


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## ddall

I've taken a more indepth look at Misen for the members here.

As an entrepreneur myself who visits this forum for its respected content hoping to gain insight, I found the Misen thread interesting. I too have been looking at creating a mass market knife of the highest quality materials (see closed thread).

In any event, I thought I would shed some light on and offer my opinion on this blade, but more so the business.

Firstly, I know the factory they are using. They are indeed located in China and produce for some other major brands. They can easily be found on Alibaba. I will say they are among the top factories in China for quality knives.

I believe there is a mutually beneficial partnership or joint-venture between Serious Eats and the Misen project. The endorsement prelaunch is a clear indication of a well planned launch strategy. I read the posting and it is incredibly obvious as a marketer myself that the gushing review is no more than a marketing endorsement. The author, if as knowledgable as his authority would suggest, would obviously know the kitchen knife market well, and further be aware of the plethora of comparable knives and quality. The only justification for the gushing article is a mutually beneficial arrangement. Is this immoral? I cannot say, but I can say this is normal business practice. The vast majority of everything is marketing and hype. I dont think I am shedding light on anything new here.

As a marketer and business owner, I think they are doing a great job, using an apple-esque marketing pitch highlighting simplicity and performance, striking a cord with semi-serious cooks. The life-time sharpening is a great value add. I would be interested in learning how they will handle the logistics of this. Kyocera does the same for their ceramics and I understand it is not a great experience for customers, more so a marketing incentive.

The mold cost of the factory is likely around $2000 for the handle, and $2000 for the blade. This particular factory by the way can also do the CAD drawings ( and graphic design work). MOQ is likely between 1000 and 2000 units. Cost per blade to make sans packaging: $8-14 FOB Shanghai. Likely on the lower side if they order 10,000 units.

Anyway, I wish them success, ultimately they are delivering a product that provides value to the market place and the purchaser. More choice for the consumer.


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## gic

I just noticed they are doing it at a 208mm not 240mm size. At that size, it really is no great bargain IMHO


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## rick alen

I've had a few meritorious [non-knife] projects over the years that never panned out simply for lack of funding. I don't know why but just after reading ddall's last comment the lightening bolt finally struck, and I do think a kickstarter might get the job done.

So ddall I feel I owe you one. Fact is that despite forum policy you have already received excellent and adequate advice, obviously better than what the Misen folks where working from. Put 2+2 together, perhaps do a little searching through the archives here. Buy some knives recommended, and some not recommended, in this category and develop some understanding of what's been said. Then by all means go for it.


Rick


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## kenji

ddall said:


> I believe there is a mutually beneficial partnership or joint-venture between Serious Eats and the Misen project. The endorsement prelaunch is a clear indication of a well planned launch strategy. I read the posting and it is incredibly obvious as a marketer myself that the gushing review is no more than a marketing endorsement.



As I have said earlier, I have no relationship with the Misen knife people, either personal or through Serious Eats. The only contact I had with them before I put up my review was an email of a few sentences they sent me explaining the product and asking if I'd like to test it out (I said yes, and it was one of perhaps a half dozen knives I tried last month, most of which were terrible). The knife they sent me was a testing unit which I offered to send back as I always do with test units. The only other interaction was some basic fact checking.

This is not marketing, it is an honest review. Firstly, I do not accept money for reviews or promotion. Anything I write editorially is 100% solely my own opinion. It always has been and always will be. I work hard to gain my readers' trust, and having a strict policy like that in place is part of what I do to earn it.

Secondly, if it were a paid endorsement we are required *by law* to disclose the nature of the relationship. It's a serious crime with serious fines to present something as pure editorial content when there is a relationship between the editor and the product.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, if a company is looking to raise $25K on Kickstarter, they wouldn't even be able to afford placing simple banner ads or native ads on Serious Eats, much less have the ability to get us to break our hard and fast rules.

I have also explained a few times why I like this particular knife and it really all comes down to design, balance, the way it feels in your hand. We can geek out about rockwell hardness and steel types all we want, but at the end of the day, once you get to a certain level of quality, the only thing that really matters is balance, comfort, handling. I find this knife much easier and more comfortable to use than any other sub-$65 knife on the market, and unlike some of the folks on here trying to call me a shill or point out that X knife has slightly better steel, I'd point out that I'm the only here who has actually *tried* the knife.


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## rick alen

I personally would have to say that, whether intentional or not, the review sounded very much gushing. Particularly for a knife that by all appearances is a clone of the Henkles Pro. Would most prefer this over a Tojiro DP for $50? I would have to guess not.


Rick


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## daveb

K, I'm sympathetic to your argument and agree the market is ready for a decent performing, decent looking knife at that price point. (Only a mother would descibe a Vnox as attractive)

But you did describe it as "The holy grail of knives"

It is what it is but it ain't no holy grail.


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## Lefty

This thread made me want to go buy a Tojiro DP....


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## sharptools

daveb said:


> K, I'm sympathetic to your argument and agree the market is ready for a decent performing, decent looking knife at that price point. (Only a mother would descibe a Vnox as attractive)
> 
> But you did describe it as "The holy grail of knives"
> 
> It is what it is but it ain't no holy grail.



You may have read something that was misquoted. The specific wording was "holy grail of inexpensive chef's knives" and makes quite a bit of difference.


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## daveb

I've been reading almost 3 years buckwheat. Getting good at it.

http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/09/best-cheap-chefs-knives-misen-equipment-review.html


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## sharptools

daveb said:


> I've been reading almost 3 years buckwheat. Getting good at it.
> 
> http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/09/best-cheap-chefs-knives-misen-equipment-review.html



I guess I'm the blind one. The title and the content don't match up.


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## daveb

Little bit like a politician - but I would never suggest that here...

And again no problems with the knife for what it is. Would like to see it head to head with the more common dept store brands.


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## Lefty

Would be cool to get one for all of us to beat on and see how it actually compares to a Tojiro DP, Fujiwara FKM, and even a piece put out by Zyliss, or Calphalon... I have always liked the Katana. Weird, but true.


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## Dave Martell

*$653,699*
*pledged of $25,000 goal
*
*12*
*days to go*


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## ecchef

sharptools said:


> I guess I'm the blind one. The title and the content don't match up.



_"At $65, The Misen Chef's Knife is the Holy Grail of Knives"_

He said it, he owns it.


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## kenji

ecchef said:


> _"At $65, The Misen Chef's Knife is the Holy Grail of Knives"_
> 
> He said it, he owns it.



True that is the title of the post. Unfortunately due to technical limitations, our titles are limited to 70 characters so sometimes a little meaning has to be stripped from them. The actual quote in the article says "holy grail of inexpensive knives."

That said, I still stand by the title as is. A high quality inexpensive knife is the holy grail of knives. It's what everyone wants and seeks (and no, obviously not *everyone*). That's what I meant by that statement. I didn't mean this is the best knife out there at any cost. I didn't mean it is the most inexpensive knife. I meant that it is the only knife I have seen that really perfectly balanced good price with great design and high quality materials and craftsmanship. It's the knife I wish I had when I was first learning to cook and had to either sacrifice quality or save up money for months to purchase a better knife.

I.E. "Holy grail" doesn't necessarily imply "very best knife." It implies the knife that is most sought-after and searched for to the point where you thought it may never exist. Those are two different things.


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## ecchef

kenji said:


> "Holy grail" doesn't necessarily imply "very best knife." It implies the knife that is most sought-after and searched for to the point where you thought it may never exist. Those are two different things.



That is a very good definition and quite true. Thanks for not taking my comment out of context. 
I'm glad that you're participating in discussion here and am hopeful that you will remain an active contributor.

D


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## daveb

What he said. Mostly.


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## knyfeknerd

I say "meh". But then again most of us here are a bad audience.....just a tad bit jaded.
I look forward to a KKF member doing a thorough review. Does seem like the HRC is a little low for my liking, but what do I know?
To be honest, all this KickStarter stuff is getting to be a bit annoying.


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## easy13

Just started reading this thread and I could care less about this knife either way or the other but the name "Misen" is obviously a play on Mise En Place and not an attempt to copy Misono. I doubt their target audience knows of Misono or that they are trying to confuse people looking into purchasing a Misono. That is petty, lighten up.


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## daveb

Discussions of the knife are certainly within bounds - any opinion will do. Not going to impunge other members, nor ascribe nefarious motives to them.

As Pink said "we don't need no education"


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## ecchef

Like the reference. :thumbsup:


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## Dave Martell

*$683,868*
*pledged of $25,000 goal
*
*10*
*days to go*


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## SousVideLoca

Wait, these kids got $684,000 for a dinky little chunk of AUS-8 with a wonky profile and a plastic handle? The hell am I doing with my life.


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## ecchef

I've been asking myself the same question. :scratchhead:


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## aboynamedsuita

SousVideLoca said:


> Wait, these kids got $684,000 for a dinky little chunk of AUS-8 with a wonky profile and a plastic handle? The hell am I doing with my life.



Have you seen the Fini knife lol http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/24646-Fini-Knives-From-Kickstarter

I haven't followed this thread for awhile, but I don't think the Misen knife is targeted at folks like KKF members, probably for the average foodie or someone who sees knives as only a means to an end and is looking for a bit of an upgrade. Maybe they'll do for knives what Henry Ford did with cars by making them readily available to the masses. I know I won't buy one as I'm already set for knives, perhaps it'd make an okay gift but there are options like a Tojiro too. I've held the Zwilling Pro and to be honest I found the forced pinch grip uncomfortable, I like the standard bolster so I can adjust the position as I see fit - think of training wheels you can't take off.


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## rick alen

SousVideLoca said:


> Wait, these kids got $684,000 for a dinky little chunk of AUS-8 with a wonky profile and a plastic handle? The hell am I doing with my life.




Makes you think, doesn't it? A little marketing creativity and few bucks for a decent presentation and you're peeing in the tall grass with the big dogs.



Rick


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## kenji

My god, the amount of petty whining ......

The "report this post" button works just fine.


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## icanhaschzbrgr

kenji said:


> My god, the amount of petty whining and armchair criticism here is unbelievable.


True. Recently the amount of sanctimony became hardly bearable on this forum (and it comes from core members mostly), but the good part is that there are still a lot of members who are passionate and reasonable. They might not comment on this thread, but they will listen and make their choices. Don't be put off by snarky comments.


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## IndoorOutdoorCook

I haven't said anything because I don't care about this knife either way. If I was searching for something in this price range, it would be for a gift. I know I could get a known performer like a Tojiro DP shipped to my door in 2 days on Amazon Prime for $50. To me, that is preferable to pledging to money to an unknown heat treat quality and unknown manufacturing wait time (and I don't like the handle or profile or steel).

Anyway I am still a Kenji fan and welcome to here.


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## chipzaroy

kenji said:


> My god, the amount of petty whining and armchair criticism here is unbelievable.
> 
> I think all this talk (mainly negative) has actually kept the knife in conversation and sparked more interest. When I first read about the knife, I think like most members here, I wasn't particularly interested. This type of knife just isn't what most of us on here are passionate about. After all this talk though, gotta say, I kinda want to try one out. haha. I can definitely see where you're coming from though, and it has to be frustrating to support a product you've used and enjoyed, and have it bashed by fellow cooks who've never even handled it. Although I will say, it's probably what I would have expected when a budget knife from a new company is introduced to a bunch of knife snobs. haha. Anyhow, since you're here, just wanted to say that I really love your new book. I made the Mac & Cheese last night, and it was delicious. Thanks for all your hard work, it's appreciated. :thumbsup:


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## DevinT

This knife is not the best knife ever, neither is it the worst knife ever. It is a very good value for most who are buying them.

I think that the customer likes the idea that a non-manufacturer of knives has put some thought into designing a useful kitchen knife.

This will no doubt have some of the 10,000 buyers research other knives, their steel composition, and rockwell hardness. We will have a few of them become members here and they will learn and contribute as they move up into higher end knives.

I do think that this will be good for all of us. This campaign has struck a cord, good and bad, with lots of people. We need to learn from this.

Hoss


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## knyfeknerd

Edit: Sorry Knerd - you know I love ya.


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## SousVideLoca

> It is a very good value for most who are buying them.


God I love you Devin.


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## cave_dweller

chipzaroy said:


> kenji said:
> 
> 
> 
> After all this talk though, gotta say, I kinda want to try one out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well somebody sure as heck should. There's been an awful lot of negative talk in this thread, and only one person that I've seen has actually handled the thing. That one person seems to disagree with the majority. As my old pa used to say "don't knock it unless you've tried it".
> 
> Everything else is guessing, and criticism of somebody's highly successful (so far) business plan. I'm not planning to buy one, but I'm not going to say it's junk without ever setting eyes on the thing.
Click to expand...


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## easy13

Cool, I think you have made your point clear, how bout you just don't purchase one then and leave it at that.


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## malexthekid

Yet funnily enough it will cut stuff. Which amazingly is the purpose of knives. And 99% of users just want to cut stuff. They might buy a pull-through sharpener or maybe use a belt grinder or just buy a new one when its too dull.

As for "chef who uses a Wusthof". I can have a guess that there are many chefs out there with plenty great knife skills that use Wusthofs and are qualified to comment on a knives ability to cut things. 

It is a cheap knife aimed at a saturated market and it will do its job perfectly.


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## daveb

daveb said:


> Discussions of the knife are certainly within bounds - any opinion will do. Not going to impunge other members, nor ascribe nefarious motives to them.




Still. OP solicited opinions on the knife. And the business model within reason. We're not going to dump on Kenji because he likes it. Kenji is not going to dump on other members cause they don't. Devin, as usual, is a beacon of common sense. Thanks.


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## rick alen

I'm sorry to see ddall gone, I did want to pick his brains about a few things.

Looking at the Misen numbers it appears that the average is 1.5 knives per buyer/supporter.

I'll save Dave M the effort - $737,409, 7 days to go.


Rick


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## Dave Martell

rick alen said:


> I'll save Dave M the effort - $737,409, 7 days to go.
> 
> 
> Rick




:thankyou333:


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## daveb

Ntxt


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