# Why don't people like Santoku?



## cotedupy (Jul 15, 2021)

I get the impression that people here don't really like Santoku. I don't own one and have never really used one, but that's because I'm shallow and I think they look horrible.

I was looking at some of the Santoku recommendations on a recent recommendation thread and thought to myself that actually they looked quite useful, and what a shame it was that they were all so irredeemably hideous. And it struck me that really they were just Bunkas without the badass k-tip, and I do have a number of 160-200mm Bunkas and k-tip Gyuto type things. And they don't seem to get quite the level of opprobrium that the poor ugly-ducking Santoku does.

So why don't people like them? Or if you do... why do you like them?


p.s. If I ever get a Shig Santoku I will simply grind a k-tip into it, and I'll love it cos it'll be awesome, and nobody will be able to get upset because I haven't f***ed around with the edge or any significant part of the geometry. It's just grown up to become the radiant beautiful swan it was always meant to be.


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## Jville (Jul 15, 2021)

Women love santokus.


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## dafox (Jul 15, 2021)

Here are a couple of threads






use of a Santoku


Hi i wanted to ask if a santoku adds any value when you do all your kitchen with a gyuto and also an usuba for julienne /thin cutting/ vegetable cutting etc... ? thanks Vadim




www.kitchenknifeforums.com










Why buy a gyuto over a santoku?


After reading the forum for the past few weeks I haven’t found a really good reason as to why gyuto are more useful than a santoku given my criteria: 1. I like short knives 2. I don’t rock chop 3. I don’t care if my knife doesn’t look pointy The main arguments against a santoku seem to be that...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





You can find more by googling, santoku kitchenknifeforums.com


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## applepieforbreakfast (Jul 15, 2021)

Personally, I feel like there's a significant loss of thinness in the tip, compared to a gyuto of the same length, e.g. 180mm. Mostly as a function of the grind in both directions, e.g. from spine to edge, and from proximal to distal points.

a.k.a. why bother with a santoku?


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## Qapla' (Jul 15, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I get the impression that people here don't really like Santoku.




Plenty of forumites do like santoku's a lot, but they do not dare to speak the word itself. They favor santoku's with longer length and pointier points and instead call them "kiritsuke gyuto", but they try to avoid admitting that that design is just one particular variant of santoku/bunka. (In Japan santoku/bunka refer to the same thing, and point designs are simply considered variants.)

I don't use santoku's myself, simply because I went for single-bevels instead.


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## rickbern (Jul 16, 2021)

I have a gesshin Uraku 165 santoku that I keep at my gfs apartment and I think it’s just a banging knife. It’s small scale is very convenient as there’s tight quarters there. She’s not intimidated by it and I’m rarely feeling constrained by it. 

Definitely one of my favorite knives and perfect for its purpose.

Edit- I bought this along with an uraku gyuto. 240. The gyuto is long gone, I’d not willingly give up the santoku.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 16, 2021)

IMO santokus are more useful than bunkas/k-tip knives.

not every gyuto is the right shape either. there are definitely santokus that are though. as long as the shape and grind look appealing to you just buy it. 

this reminds me a bit of the pink guitar conversations. some pinks are nice (e.g. shell), some are heinous, but even the ones you like people like to do a theoretical conversation about whether they would own one. why not just buy one and see if you like it? (side note: there is a pink guitar I want from Suhr but Ive got too many already)


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## tostadas (Jul 16, 2021)

I very much like the forward balance and height of the santoku. I had a couple that I let go of and the main thing I felt was not to my tastes on those were the tips. I prefer a little more upsweep, and super thin in the front area. I only have 1 slot available in my rotation for a 180mm size, and currently the few I have battling for that spot are gyutos that are almost santoku, but not quite. They range in height from 51mm-55mm, and also have the thin tip and gentle upsweep that I like.


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## spaceconvoy (Jul 16, 2021)

Santokus are often described as being designed for housewives starting in the post-war period. I tried looking for a reputable source, but this seems to be an urban myth. Chris Lehrer (if any of y'all still remember KF-ITK) says:

"From drawings in magazines from about 1900-1930 or so, it appears that this knife is imagined or actually used (hard to know which) in conjunction with a _deba_, possibly a double-edged _deba_, which would serve its traditional purpose of filleting fish.

"Now there are two established terms, both still in use and without any particular regional dominance that I can detect, for this knife: _santoku_ and _bunkabocho_. Both appear to be advertising terms dating back roughly to the turn of the century."






Some basics on Japanese knife history (LONG)


In a thread on the Ultimate Minimalist Kitchen, inventivefficie mentioned the santoku and how it's especially good for fish. I disagreed, leading to the reply:I'd like to give some basic sketch here, because this question comes up again and again. This is a long post, so get a cup of coffee...




cheftalk.com





I still take this guy's opinions on knives with a hefty grain of salt, but I believe his research. He also makes a point about the distinction between the terms santoku and bunka that checks out. Here's a screenshot from "Heritage Conservation and Japan's Cultural Diplomacy" by Natsuko Akagawa (cause google books makes things difficult):







So Santoku and Bunka(bocho) were originally competing terms for the same thing. "Santoku" was deliberately Buddhist sounding to appeal to more traditionally minded people, while "bunka" would have seemed very western and modern to people in the pre-war era.

Nowadays we have that backwards, because the Japanese have repurposed the term 'bunka' to refer to traditional culture. But this was just part of the post-war push to de-emphasize the Meiji era fascination with the West and solidify everything pre-war as homogeneously "Japanese."

Basically, if you think a bunka is a more traditional shape, you're wrong.

Today, bunka means k-tip and santoku means rounded tip, but otherwise they're the same knife. The marketing of bunkas tends to push the idea that they're a more traditional shape, with zero evidence. I personally believe it's just a tactic to sell short knives to people who are insecure about their masculinity  the sharp (excuse me, "badass" ) angle of the tip plus the made-up story of traditionalism helps guys feel better about themselves for buying something "less" than a gyuto. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.


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## cotedupy (Jul 16, 2021)

dafox said:


> Here are a couple of threads
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ta, yes I saw those. Though a forum isn't necessarily just a depository of historical information, so I was asking again. To maybe canvass some other opinions, including those of newer members. I'm sure pretty much any knife-related topic I could think of has been covered before, but a bit like the Seven Basic Plots... there are no new stories, only new voices.



applepieforbreakfast said:


> Personally, I feel like there's a significant loss of thinness in the tip, compared to a gyuto of the same length, e.g. 180mm. Mostly as a function of the grind in both directions, e.g. from spine to edge, and from proximal to distal points.



Interesting point, I see what you mean. I hadn't really thought about that aspect tbh, 




Qapla' said:


> Plenty of forumites do like santoku's a lot, but they do not dare to speak the word itself. They favor santoku's with longer length and pointier points and instead call them "kiritsuke gyuto", but they try to avoid admitting that that design is just one particular variant of santoku/bunka. (In Japan santoku/bunka refer to the same thing, and point designs are simply considered variants.)



Haha! Yeah that's certainly what I do, but as I said... I'm shallow and just think k-tips look cool . Interestingly though... I buy Tosa style blades from a smith in Ehime, and not only do they distinguish between Santoku and Bunka, but also between those and (double bevel) Kiritsuke. The latter being as you can imagine, less tall and with less curve to the belly.

But then they have a number of aspects of nomenclature that I've not come across much, for instance: They call their pettys 'Koyanagi' until 210mm, after which the same style becomes a 'Sujihiki'. What they call 'Pettys' are the same style as the 'Santoku' but smaller.


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## cotedupy (Jul 16, 2021)

tostadas said:


> I very much like the forward balance and height of the santoku. I had a couple that I let go of and the main thing I felt was not to my tastes on those were the tips. I prefer a little more upsweep, and super thin in the front area. I only have 1 slot available in my rotation for a 180mm size, and currently the few I have battling for that spot are gyutos that are almost santoku, but not quite. They range in height from 51mm-55mm, and also have the thin tip and gentle upsweep that I like.



Interesting point re-balance. Where do you think is the ideal balance point for a Santoku. I tend to put it around a pinch grip on Bunkas/whatever people want to call them, but should I think about shifting that forward...?


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## tostadas (Jul 16, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Interesting point re-balance. Where do you think is the ideal balance point for a Santoku. I tend to put it around a pinch grip on Bunkas/whatever people want to call them, but should I think about shifting that forward...?


My preferred specs in general are balance 30-40mm in front of the heel, 15-20mm length from handle to choil, and 20mm+ height of neck, 52mm+ heel height. I like to choke up quite a bit on the knife, so my pinch location is maybe farther forward than most people.


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## cotedupy (Jul 16, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> Santokus are often described as being designed for housewives starting in the post-war period. I tried looking for a reputable source, but this seems to be an urban myth. Chris Lehrer (if any of y'all still remember KF-ITK) says:
> 
> "From drawings in magazines from about 1900-1930 or so, it appears that this knife is imagined or actually used (hard to know which) in conjunction with a _deba_, possibly a double-edged _deba_, which would serve its traditional purpose of filleting fish.
> 
> ...



Fascinating stuff, ta! I knew none of that aspect of the history (except the housewife story bit), or indeed that Bunkas were portrayed as in some way more 'traditional'. In fact I always assumed it to be the other way, and that they were even newer inventions than rounded tip Santoku.

(I was being slightly glib/flip when I said 'badass' btw. I wouldn't take much of what I say particularly seriously).


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## Benuser (Jul 16, 2021)

First, be aware that some santokus are very close to 180mm gyutos, and that in these cases the name is arbitrary. But that's hardly so with most of them. Santokus are essentially flat, and usually miss a belly, the upswing to the tip. Now, most gyutos do have a lower tip than European chef's knives they are derived from, but santokus do go much further in that respect. That hinders the classic Western 'guillotine and glide' forward slicing. The board will catch the tip if you were to try it. Almost all santokus I sharpen for others do have a damaged tip. Don't ask about the board.
Now, the flat profile doesn't help either with rock-chopping. Only push-cutting is left as an option. If that's the case better have a 180mm nakiri. Just because it looks better.
For years, I've used at home a 190mm Hiromoto santoku. An unusual length, not deadly flat and some upswing. A wide short gyuto, in fact. It has been replaced by a 180mm gyuto — a Masahiro VC — who is a bit wider than most 180s, making the pinch grip — or claw grip in my case — comfortable.
Quite a decent santoku is the Lignum 3 by Robert Herder of Solingen, Germany. The popularity of santokus among the German public has all to do with the extremely high tip, almost in line with the spine, shown by modern German chef's knives, which only works for tall people behind too low a board.
Another santoku I found very nice is the Misono UX-10. That has all to do with the unusual design, not so much its performance, which is OK but not remarkable. Most santokus do look a bit plump due to the relative width. This one is even elegant. The only reason to let it go was the little fun when sharpening the 19C27 steel. To me it's an important factor.
Otherwise, yes, some people do feel uncomfortable with a spear tip. A santoku looks less threatening.
I should add that a good short gyuto and a simple carbon 270mm sujihiki can make a great combination for a home user.


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## lemeneid (Jul 16, 2021)

The only “santoku” that’s any good is a giant-ass Takeda 240 with a good flat area. 

Otherwise most santokus are the bastard child of a gyuto and nakiri and do neither job as good.


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## Qapla' (Jul 16, 2021)

Deleted.


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## TB_London (Jul 16, 2021)

It’s a size thing - you don’t get 240mm santoku, and everyone knows 240mm is the best size

Plus there is more choice of gyutos than santokus with some makers just not doing them

I also see a lot of “custom” santokus that are just knife shaped objects which adds to the uncoolness


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## KenHash (Jul 16, 2021)

The Santoku was derived from a functional combination of the Gyuto and Nakiri taking the form similar to a Kamigata Nakiri. Santoku translates to 3 virtues, and refers to Meat, Fish and Vegetables. Because it serves multiple purposes the Santoku is also called a Bannou Bouchou (All purpose kitchen knife).
Until the mid/late 1800s Japanese culinary knives were all made for and used for specific ingredients and tasks. The change in the cuisine in Japanese homes from purely traditional to newly introduced Western cooking called for a single knife that could handle all the kitchen tasks.
The term Bunka, which means "Culture" is sometimes attributed to Culture meaning advancing a lifestyle. However it is considered more likely the result of a fad in Japan during the Taisho period (1912-1926) when using the term "Bunka" was a big marketing fad. For all intents and purposes Santoku, Bannou and Bunka are the same.

Why is the Santoku not popular？Well it is not popular on this forum for a number of reasons.
1) Santokus are mostly 165-190mm, a size that is small for Western kitchens and cutting boards, as well as many taller men.
2) Because of the smaller size Santokus are considered "Women's knives" by some.
3) Many members of this forum are either professional or avid chefs who have no need or interest in a "single knife that can handle everything".
4) Many members of this forum are culinary knife enthusiasts who prefer to own a wide range of different knife types rather than one knife that can do everything.

The Santoku, because of it's versatility and smaller size is the most common kitchen knife in Japanese kitchens, which have limited countertop space. The larger knives that are popular here are usually seen only in professional settings in Japan.


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## Garm (Jul 16, 2021)

Freud wrote a lot about men's desire to possess the _symbolic_ phallus, while women desire to _be_ it..
This probably extends into the realm of Japanese cutlery shape preferences, or..?


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## rickbern (Jul 16, 2021)

Garm said:


> Freud wrote a lot about men's desire to possess the _symbolic_ phallus, while women desire to _be_ it..
> This probably extends into the realm of Japanese cutlery shape preferences, or..?


Yeah, but he also said that sometimes a gyuto is just a good smoke.


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## stringer (Jul 16, 2021)

The only real problem I have with santokus is length. I have several santoku-esque profiled knives in the 240+ range and will surely buy more in the future.


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## Ochazuke (Jul 16, 2021)

I use primarily santoku and petty at my tiny apartment. I really like santoku! For me, 165mm is the perfect size for cooking for 1 (and sometimes 2) people. 

Like @KenHash was saying above, I use all the big knives at work. I think part of the reason I like santoku is that I cook like a Japanese person in a Japanese-sized apartment.


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## mpier (Jul 16, 2021)

Jville said:


> Women love santokus.


My wife loves her Santuko, even though I have over 30 knives in the house she will only use that knife. If she needs something cut that requires a different knifes she will lean on me to cut it for her. I personally don’t mind working with it but it’s definitely not my go to. I think the bigger knives with those pointy ends scare her a bit.


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## rstcso (Jul 16, 2021)

I have the utmost respect for the santoku in our house. I bought it for my wife a few years ago and it keeps her from using my knives.

A few months ago, I used it for the first time and was amazed at its performance compared to my old German friends. Going to a knife shop with my son-in-law a month later is the-straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back, the dam-burst of my Japanese knife buying. Although I blame the son-in-law, it was my momentary lapse of using her santoku that really started it, but I'll never tell her that.


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## KenHash (Jul 16, 2021)

Garm said:


> Freud wrote a lot about men's desire to possess the _symbolic_ phallus, while women desire to _be_ it..
> This probably extends into the realm of Japanese cutlery shape preferences, or..?



Yes....but sometimes a Knife is just a Knife.
My bill is in the mail.


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## Aidan (Jul 16, 2021)

I have several. I like them. Especially the Shig which has a good flat area. My first decent knife was the Shigeki Tanaka 165mm B2. Still a favourite.


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## Renzwerkz (Jul 16, 2021)

I do love santoku when i'm cooking at home, less intimidating with a smaller board, to compensate the small space for home kitchen.
When at work, santoku quite a handycap if i'm dealing with bigger and larger ingredients, and its mostly does.

So, for me, its just a matter of where and when to use santoku.. IMHO. ✌


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## btbyrd (Jul 16, 2021)

lemeneid said:


> The only “santoku” that’s any good is a giant-ass Takeda 240 with a good flat area.



I wasn't aware that Takeda made gyutos with a flat area.


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## Michi (Jul 16, 2021)

Personally, I'm not a fan of Santokus either. They are in this no-man's land of "I'm not a nakiri, but I'm not a gyuto either."

But, thinking about a space-constrained kitchen (such as in a Tokyo apartment), I can see where this makes perfect sense. A full-size gyuto (210-240 mm) would just plain be too long. Moreover, that sharp pointy tip is just an accident waiting to happen. Even if the knife were shorter, it is only a matter of time before one careless movement will bang the knife tip against something on the counter or the splash back, and that's that.

A Santoku is a lot more forgiving in that regard. For one, it's shorter than a typical gyuto and, due to the blunt nose, it will probably survive getting banged against a jar or some such much better.

In terms of actual cutting performance, my personal experience is "meh". Yes, it works well. For everything. But not really well for anything…


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 16, 2021)

Could it be that Santoku backwards is ukotnas (which is a terribly ugly word)?


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## WiriWiri (Jul 16, 2021)

btbyrd said:


> I wasn't aware that Takeda made gyutos with a flat area.



Trust me, they exist…

*



*


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## stringer (Jul 16, 2021)

WiriWiri said:


> Trust me, they exist…
> 
> *View attachment 134556
> *


Looks like pretty typical Takeda continual radius to me.


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## btbyrd (Jul 16, 2021)

Not exactly a huge flat spot. But still bigger than the non-existent ones on mine.


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## Michi (Jul 16, 2021)

Carl Kotte said:


> Could it be that Santoku backwards is ukotnas (which is a terribly ugly word)?


Maybe it's a message from the devil?


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 16, 2021)

Michi said:


> Maybe it's a message from the devil?


It usually is


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## WiriWiri (Jul 16, 2021)

stringer said:


> Looks like pretty typical Takeda continual radius to me.



It‘s tough to photograph, particularly with one hand out of gripping action and a forward heavy blade, but I’ve just checked and the back 1/3 of the blade does sit flat on the board. It’s very good on chopping greens as a result


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## tcmx3 (Jul 16, 2021)

TB_London said:


> It’s a size thing - you don’t get 240mm santoku, and everyone knows 240mm is the best size



it's funny you say that because if you go to Sakai or Sanjo they cant even agree on what 240 is. and here in the states most of the 240 customs Ive bought came in at 250.


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## Benuser (Jul 16, 2021)

WiriWiri said:


> Trust me, they exist…
> 
> *View attachment 134556
> *


Quite a workable profile. I'm a short guy. I can live with a low tip.


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## MrHiggins (Jul 16, 2021)

I HATE my Mazaki 180 santoku.





But I LOVE my Mazaki 180 gyuto.


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## Benuser (Jul 16, 2021)

Carl Kotte said:


> It usually is


How about otuyg?


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 16, 2021)

Benuser said:


> How about otuyg?


That’s the devil’s language! Be careful now my friend!


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 16, 2021)

MrHiggins said:


> I HATE my Mazaki 180 santoku.
> View attachment 134566
> 
> 
> ...


I can totally see why. I mean, the santoku has a weird dog looking profile; by contrast, the gyuto looks so fresh and snake like.


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## hukdizzle (Jul 16, 2021)

I picked up a Yoshikane 180 Santoku such as the following second hand off the forums recently.



Epicurean Edge: Japanese and European professional chefs knives



It's a bit of an oddball in regards to the typical Yoshi offerings, but in a good way. The grind, fit and finish, etc are amazing as usual with a Yoshi and it flies through food. It has the characteristic Yoshi flat spot at the rear but this flat spot is not parallel to the handle and as you can see the knife profile tapers down quite a lot to the tip making it almost like a 180 gyuto. If I am not mistaken, this might be one of the tallest knives Yoshikane makes as well coming in at right around 55mm on my example at the heel. I tried out a Wakui Santoku for couple of meals and honestly didn't enjoy the profile, but this Yoshikane seems to really jive with me.

If you want to try one that's more like a gyuto maybe give the Yoshi a look.


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## tostadas (Jul 16, 2021)

MrHiggins said:


> I HATE my Mazaki 180 santoku.
> View attachment 134566
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, the gyuto looks much better


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## captaincaed (Jul 16, 2021)

Shorter length is my main gripe. The somewhat blunter nose can make some detail tasks a bit harder. 
The flat profile is really nice for push cutting, and you don't need to rock much with something that short. It's pretty well designed for the tasks it does. 
So to answer your questions, maybe just a virtue signal of a "real" knife aficionado? Someone who wouldn't be caught dead with a glass of anything younger than 18 years old?


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## luuogle (Jul 16, 2021)

Mainly the short length is my dislike against a santoku. It does well for a small blade but not my preference.


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## ModRQC (Jul 16, 2021)

I love him. I just love Christmas and all that...

Whoa, wait... Santoku? Oops, misheard that. 

They can be fun. I had various iterations of these/Bunkas. K-tips they usually don't happen to be my favorite, but in a slender profile it works well so I kept the Futana S3. Prefer Santoku tip with taller unit, if I must choose. However if a Nakiri can fill in too, I'd give it priority all in all.


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## Jovidah (Jul 16, 2021)

I tried some, for me it's about two things. I prefer more length (same reason I don't like 180 gyuto that much, and will never bother hopping on the bunka bandawagon), and I prefer having an actual usable tip. 
That being said, it's a fair point that there are at least some 240 gyutos that are at least somewhat creeping towards a santoku profile. 

If you actually like santokus you're actually a lucky person; they're usually significantly more affordable!


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## DitmasPork (Jul 16, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I get the impression that people here don't really like Santoku. I don't own one and have never really used one, but that's because I'm shallow and I think they look horrible.
> 
> I was looking at some of the Santoku recommendations on a recent recommendation thread and thought to myself that actually they looked quite useful, and what a shame it was that they were all so irredeemably hideous. And it struck me that really they were just Bunkas without the badass k-tip, and I do have a number of 160-200mm Bunkas and k-tip Gyuto type things. And they don't seem to get quite the level of opprobrium that the poor ugly-ducking Santoku does.
> 
> ...



Who do you mean when you say "people here"? I know people who love santokus, it's a very popular knife, which is why so many makers continue to produce them.

Santokus are a very useful shape—I'd used a borrowed Mazaki santoku for months, had a lot of fun with it. If all my gyutos vanished and were left with a good santoku, I'd not be miserable using it and would simply make do. 

I've wanted to add a santoku to my collection—just haven't found the right one yet.


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## Benuser (Jul 16, 2021)

Carl Kotte said:


> That’s the devil’s language! Be careful now my friend!


Don't worry, Carl. Thanks for your concern, but negotiations with some gentleman called Mr. Satan IIRC are pending. A few proposals he did are most interesting.


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## mrmoves92 (Jul 16, 2021)

I am just a home cook, but I have a Yoshimi Kato 170mm bunka that I really enjoy. For larger tasks, I’ll grab a larger knife, but I can use the bunka to make most of the dishes that I make without wanting a different knife. I think that my bunka excels at cutting garlic, shallots, and smaller onions. It has a pretty flat profile, and it has the thinnest tip of any of my knives, which I really enjoy. I wouldn’t hesitate to get another santoku/bunka in the future. I think that a 210/240 gyuto would be a better all purpose knife, but I think that a santoku/bunka could be a really nice complement to a longer gyuto.


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## Qapla' (Jul 16, 2021)

Benuser said:


> How about otuyg?


I've never seen anyone use a reverse-grip on a gyuto.


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## ModRQC (Jul 16, 2021)

Abiganay is the only irreversible Demon with his sons Adeb and Abusu.


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## applepieforbreakfast (Jul 16, 2021)

I will admit to owning, using, and like a Gihei 240, which is really just the illegitimate love child of a gyuto and a santoku.


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## KenHash (Jul 16, 2021)

Michi said:


> In terms of actual cutting performance, my personal experience is "meh". Yes, it works well. For everything. But not really well for anything…



This. A common characteristic of any single product that attempts to cover the functions of multiple products.
But if I were stuck with just one knife to prepare meats, fish, vegetables, the Santoku would be the logical choice.
Of course nobody here is stuck with just one knife...lol.


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## WiriWiri (Jul 16, 2021)

KenHash said:


> This. A common characteristic of any single product that attempts to cover the functions of multiple products.
> But if I were stuck with just one knife to prepare meats, fish, vegetables, the Santoku would be the logical choice.
> Of course nobody here is stuck with just one knife...lol.



Isn’t the same true of a gyuto to a certain extent? Personally I wish all these people who keep asking for extra heel height on their gyutos would just get an oversized Santoku and deal with it - all that metal just adds unnecessary friction when I’m using my ‘cow sword’ for its intended purpose.


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## ModRQC (Jul 16, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Abiganay is the only irreversible Demon with his sons Adeb and Abusu.



Funny enough their names are much more reversible.


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## ModRQC (Jul 16, 2021)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> I will admit to owning, using, and like a Gihei 240, which is really just the illegitimate love child of a gyuto and a santoku.



Rule of thumb on such a flat profile, if the tip is equal/higher than the highest point of the wide bevel at heel, it’s a Gyuto tip. 

Nah just saying this cause it’s still quite obvious in your example that the Gyuto is no Santoku profile. 

My real rule of thumb is 1/3 ; 1/2 ; 2/3 of heel height for all J-Knives gyutos. Then again 2/3 are usually units with a slanting up profile the likes of S.Tanaka. Which makes Tanaka’s santoku a good option for those who wish to have some more leverage with the upsweep at tip, since it’s quite high compared to heel. Many other slanted Santoku/Bunka work in that sense too.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 16, 2021)

Ain't gonna replace my gyuto, but I can definitely see a place for a santoku in my kit—like diversity in my collection. I can appreciate the smaller size, tall height—a formidable scallion slayer.
[Not my santoku, borrowed it for a few months from a generous chef]


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## KenHash (Jul 16, 2021)

WiriWiri said:


> Isn’t the same true of a gyuto to a certain extent? Personally I wish all these people who keep asking for extra heel height on their gyutos would just get an oversized Santoku and deal with it - all that metal just adds unnecessary friction when I’m using my ‘cow sword’ for its intended purpose.



Yes to an extent. I will do everything with a Gyuto. My knife will do everything with her 150 Petty. 
One just has to look at the Santoku as an alternative to having multiple knives, developed for and
aimed at a market where the average Japanese household up to the mid 1800s only had a Nakiri. But the menu shifted
to more Western fare in the early 20th Century. 
And yes a large Santoku would provide the often requested extra heel height.


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## ModRQC (Jul 16, 2021)

I think, not specifically related to any post beyond, height is a bit of the way those that are afflicted with phallic report to their everything « tool » are compensating « lost » length. 

For instance the Yoshikane Santoku I had was 54mm tall… but slanted edge to quite a narrower than usual Santoku tip. I don’t believe this makes for a good Santoku in a purist form. Rather, if you must have height, the Masashi Santoku would be my pick. 

The idea is not the heel but how height can be maintained to some extent almost until the spine curve down to tip. For a 180mm Santoku, 46-49mm tall at heel and a truer flat profile will yield approx 39-43mm before tip and that will be like 10-15mm taller than most Guytos. 

So Yoshikane 54mm at heel was rather superficial height. In a likewise thought, if blade forward balance where you’ll choke part of the heel anyhow, there’s very little lenght left front of pinch, and it’s much more defining that the tip area will be very high still for height to mean anything. 

That’s when I lost all love for Santokus - they were my favorites a not so long time ago. If you ask me, 180/46 is usually nice enough if the profile is kept real flat with no slant upwards. You’ll get a wide blade enough in the usable area if blade forward balance makes you choke. I would kind of vote for such a 180/46 unit to be max 10mm front of heel balance. That stands about perfect in grip, usable length and retained height. And it’s also what most makers do with their 165-180mm range.

And if that then no I do not believe smaller space area is any meaningful towards Santokus rather than any 180-210mm gyutos. A 8 inches across cutting board is still enough area to use these, and surely you can manage that board and that much space without hitting jars and backsplash or stabbing your gf anywhere in the world. If you really can’t then a petty is probably your best bet to mark any real world difference in needed space.

All in all… I don’t think Santokus and lenghts are really discussed correctly around here.


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## ModRQC (Jul 16, 2021)

Yeah… I get that a lot.

I mean I make some bad jokes everyday and people ignore and it’s all good with me. What I find funny is most people’s 

But when I really take a stance at something that can’t be ignored, I still am ignored. You guys are all 240mm is the length and yeah, from experience with smaller boards and home use, I don’t find 240mm welcoming even when I love them. There’s just too much edge for a one hander board of 8-9 inches across. It’s no masculinity thing. And in most of my settings so far I can use 250mm without being a danger to someone, myself or a knife. And I have 3-4 boards large enough to accomodate. But it’s just not handy. That’s the truth plain and simple. 

A santoku to any extent is no less danger than a Guyto even in smaller areas if keeping 210mm and below. With a pinch if you can’t manage about 7 inches of knife front of grip with ease you’re a dumbass, not a male God or not a sissy. Same applies for 9 inches forward grip.

But using a 9-10 inches edge on most reasonably sized board leaves room to be desired as a cutting surface goes, and when prepping for 2-5 people, really 20% of your work will involve bulk cutting for preps in advance/broth/whatever, but 80% of your work will be cutting a very few things in singular/double presentation at most. And 240mm don’t shine in such preps. 

When I look at adept cutters here on KKF posting vids, I wonder: that’s all very good use of a 240-270mm Guyto, but how fast could that same guy be going at ingredients one by one for home meals? If you can manipulate a 250mm edge like I see around here, you can cut in bulk quite fast - but if bulk is even just two bell peppers how fast could that same guy go one at once with a smaller nimble blade. And from the skills involved using a 250mm edge, I’d assume crazy fast. As fast as cutting those fews in bulk with a longer edge - at least.

I know in the end it’s no phallic thing with pro users. It’s as decent a flat spot than any santoku with still a gyuto tip and profile’s versatility. That really takes at least 240mm with most Gyutos to even happen IME. But in traditional J knives as we all know, knives were dedicated to specific tasks and more lenght than 200-210mm wasn’t necessary but for slicers and involving things like processing really big stuff.

But I see it. It’s all well for dicing tomatoes in bulk perhaps, or any ingredient stackable and long enough. But when doing garlic, thin slices of tomatoes or potatoes, dicing onions, I don’t see much bulk processing there. How could one? And when fine mincing garlic, or ginger, I’ve seen best 240mm users slow down to a crawl - a crawl - compared to how fast they can bulk process stackable cuts. 

So perhaps 240mm users that always brags how it’s all there is to anything that cuts aren’t much aware of their own skills, speed and usability depending on what they cut. 

And that they really don’t get Japanese knives in their most essential or traditional form. Dedicated to a specific task can truly mean bulk processing does not need apply. It’s focus I see with J-masters in pro use. I’ve seen Japanese chefs break down poultry much more efficiently with a 150mm garasuki than the next I do chicken processing with a 240mm Deba just because I can and am western user guy. You won’t bulk break down poultry it’ll be one by one still. And you won’t bulk fine slice tomatoes or potatoes, it’s one by one then. And you won’t bulk mince garlic or ginger, it’s piece by piece still. And when I see you 240mm users guys trying to prove you’re efficient processing that clove of garlic I get an immense desire to laugh.


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## Ochazuke (Jul 16, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> I think, not specifically related to any post beyond, height is a bit of the way those that are afflicted with phallic report to their everything « tool » are compensating « lost » length.
> 
> For instance the Yoshikane Santoku I had was 54mm tall… but slanted edge to quite a narrower than usual Santoku tip. I don’t believe this makes for a good Santoku in a purist form. Rather, if you must have height, the Masashi Santoku would be my pick.
> 
> ...


I both agree and disagree with your ideas. 
I think things like profile, length, height, etc both matter immensely and not at all.
A skilled knife user can do almost any job with almost anything that has an edge. I regularly katsuramuki a daikon with a deba just to prove to new chefs that it’s their technique, not their knife that’s the problem.
That being said - knowing how to use a certain knife type correctly can make a real difference (as you noted above).

I think the santoku’s greatest strength is that it allows people who don’t care about technique to achieve serviceable results. Large gyuto are unwieldy for non-knife people. It’s difficult to sengiri with a petty. Most people with a santoku can do most common tasks without too much difficulty.

That’s why I personally am not super interested in talking specs regarding santoku. It’s like trying to optimize the specs and performance on your Honda.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 16, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I get the impression that people here don't really like Santoku. I don't own one and have never really used one, but that's because I'm shallow and I think they look horrible.
> 
> I was looking at some of the Santoku recommendations on a recent recommendation thread and thought to myself that actually they looked quite useful, and what a shame it was that they were all so irredeemably hideous. And it struck me that really they were just Bunkas without the badass k-tip, and I do have a number of 160-200mm Bunkas and k-tip Gyuto type things. And they don't seem to get quite the level of opprobrium that the poor ugly-ducking Santoku does.
> 
> ...



I like Santokus!

Some great answers so far. Let me offer you a hot take that probably belongs in the unpopular opinions thread. A bit of a rambling rant that I might not be fully convinced of ...

We are all creatures of vanity. Below the surface, our unconscious is paddling away developing an identity and trying to fit in while taking the path of least resistance. We develop narratives about ourselves without knowing it - seldom ever challenging those stories. If a person didn't know what a santoku was before they came to KKF... they probably think they are not cool. All the cool kids are using >=240mm gyutos. There is a positive reinforcement bias there. I am surprised by how many members are a revolving door of knives. Can you really say santokus suck if you have tried 30+ gyutos to find the parameters you like... but only 2 santokus??

Functionally, the differences between santokus and gyutos are overblown in the domestic kitchen - but we _are_ allowed to have preferences! Most of us here are domestic cooks.... talented or no. A minority are commercial cooks/chefs... good knife skills or no. For those elite who need to do bulk preparation under time pressure (and the technique to match) small differences matter. For the rest of us... hey! It is just a passion or hobby! So why not enjoy non-critical detail? After all that is what preferences are!

I am pretty much indifferent. Question: what do you call a tall gyuto with a large flat, short belly and lower tip?? Answer: useful...


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## Cliff (Jul 16, 2021)

I keep a UX10 santoku in my travel bag. It's perfect for working in small kitchens and often less than perfect boards.


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## ModRQC (Jul 16, 2021)

Ochazuke said:


> I both agree and disagree with your ideas.
> I think things like profile, length, height, etc both matter immensely and not at all.
> A skilled knife user can do almost any job with almost anything that has an edge. I regularly katsuramuki a daikon with a deba just to prove to new chefs that it’s their technique, not their knife that’s the problem.
> That being said - knowing how to use a certain knife type correctly can make a real difference (as you noted above).
> ...



I was merely responding to most comments - which regardless of where you don’t agree with me, are still there to prove my point unless 75% of responders just edit or delete their comment. If you talk of a Santoku/bunka or Nakiri in terms of HEEL height, you just don’t get the profile at all. Even for Guytos to many extent. 

Mostly we focused on these specs not because 1mm matters really, but because from acquaintance with many knives we get to know: I like such height for length and would rather buy makers/lines where such a spec is likely to be minimal. If a few mm taller then it’s just sharpening breathing room, not a necessity in use. Nor are a few less mm in use. But yeah when I so often looked at Ryusen 180mm gyutos I was like if 43mm is their average height as best, and 41mm in some lines, then yeah I might love it as new but it offers no breathing room at all where it’ll still respond to promises gathered when buying it. Soon it’ll be a 39mm tall 180mm petty. Rare but not uncommon still for that length, but such a low height to me makes for a rather different grip and it’s no gyuto anymore.

So I get the seek for some min. height but don’t get the length at all except where ingredient size/bulk will truly have an impact. But then are you even getting what a Gyuto is, or what a typically shorter/longer type is, at all? 

Most of you guys are only advocating for end grain boards but are still discussing chipped edge with some makers/thinning work. It also makes me laugh; how western-like do you need to use J-knives for this to become a primary source of anxiety/happenstance in use?

If you need to massacre stuff in bulk, then just use a knife that can withstand what you need. But when you need for finer cuts, 240mm won’t save you any time at all. I for one would be appaled that all I get out of it would be less efficient cuts of small stuff for some rare bulk use - at home. 

In pro environments I can’t relate but do get some of the message told here: you choose J-knives for how good they cut, but use them western style because that’s all there is to be efficient enough to keep a job. J-knives then are a preference of feeling in cuts and relative refinement of bulk cutting. Not that in such bulk work using a soft edge and a rod woudn’t do about as fast and efficiently.

So nope - not saying knive skills are involved here. Just saying understanding of use has long gone wildly romantic and in some cases totally inefficient around here.


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## cotedupy (Jul 16, 2021)

DitmasPork said:


> Who do you mean when you say "people here"? I know people who love santokus, it's a very popular knife, which is why so many makers continue to produce them.



I was meaning on KKF, rather than in a geographical sense. Though going by many of the answers, I appear to have misjudged the membership!

---

Interesting to hear everybody's thoughts, cheers. I'm feeling even more tempted by that Shig Santoku now. I might not even grind a k-tip into it... .


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## Jovidah (Jul 16, 2021)

Isn't it a bit pointless too argue personal preferences? That's also why almost every statement I make about profiles and length is couched in terms like 'for me personally', 'in my experience' and 'YMMV'. I had a short discussion about knife preferences with someone else in PM and one conclusion I arrived at was that the hardest thing about this hobby is _figuring out your own preferences. _Simply because there's no substitute. You can learn almost everything there is about the knives on the market in a month, and matching knives with preferences is fairly doable; the problem is that no one else can tell you what you really like. You just have to try stuff and experience it for yourself.

Some people prefer shorter, others longer, some prefer taller, some prefer less blade height. It probably depends a lot on your cutting technique, board size and grip preference as well. I agree that it's probably silly to just make a universal 'go 240' recommendation, but it's equally silly to say that people who prefer a 240 are being silly. That's like telling someone their favorite color can't be blue.

In the end you just have to try stuff and give it a fair chance to make up your own mind. At some point I literally just bought a 210 and a 240 from the same line to use them side by side. Could still not make up my mind years later (both have their strengths)... so I'm just going to end up buying both more of both. 
At least I figured out that shorter than 210 is simply not cup of tea. Not because other people tell me they shouldn't be, but because I tried a bunch and always just preferred longer. Same goes for santoku. To each their own!


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## Duukt (Jul 17, 2021)

Santoku never gave me any gifts for Christmas, that's why!


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## TB_London (Jul 17, 2021)

Haha, 240 gyutos seems to have sparked more controversy than santokus ever have.

If you use a 240 for everything you get adept with it as you build that muscle memory, when you then swap that for a different length it all goes out of whack. It’s Like Bruce Lee and punches, someone who has 50 knives has likely mastered none of them, someone with a 240 who’s mastered it is a person that produce fears


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## WiriWiri (Jul 17, 2021)

TB_London said:


> Haha, 240 gyutos seems to have sparked more controversy than santokus ever have…
> It’s Like Bruce Lee and punches, someone who has 50 knives has likely mastered none of them, someone with a 240 who’s mastered it is a person that produce fears



Oi Sensei - old Brucie Lee was renown for his one-inch punch, not his carefully curated choice of kitchen knives in a certain length (minimum heel height restrictions apply)

And besides, what the bleeding bull knackers has Kung fu got to do with It anyhow? I’m no shogun assassin of the kitchen perhaps, but I can mount a reasonable ‘crab of fury’ and cut a prepared selection of vegetables with a 240 Gyuto almost impressively (at times). And I have some martial arts skills gained as a kid too, which perhaps have allowed me to react to some unpredictable situations more adeptly in later life. I’m not sure how the two worlds really collide tbh, but I guess I’m better prepared than most if a gang of vegetables tries to disrespect my family or attack me.


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## IsoJ (Jul 17, 2021)

I would take santoku over nakiri just because of the little tip it has. I've tried couple of good santokus and I can see having one again in my kitchen.


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## cotedupy (Jul 17, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> one conclusion I arrived at was that the hardest thing about this hobby is _figuring out your own preferences._



Not for me! I knew I was a fey aesthete from the off, and that k-tips were the only way to go. Nor indeed for @Carl Kotte - an even more discerning sort - who enjoys nothing more than the aural pleasure of a dirty old Kcid.

(Sorry... I promise I won't make any more kcid jokes  ).


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## Benuser (Jul 17, 2021)

WiriWiri said:


> Isn’t the same true of a gyuto to a certain extent?


Indeed! The whole idea of a French Chef's knife from 1890 or so, with its crazy distal taper, is exactly to have all functions in one blade.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 17, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I'm feeling even more tempted by that Shig Santoku now



For what it is worth... I have a Shig 180 KU that I am very fond of. It is great steel. I have aggressively thinned it out because that is what I tend to do over time. It is a great cutter. Now it is wide bevel (I know) with minimal steel behind the edge and a nice tapering sakai spine - I love this combination. The knife feels 'solid' because it has meat at the top but it cuts nicely because there isnt much steel behind the edge. It is somewhere between a laser and middleweight or light workhorse.

If the santoku you are interested in is a KU version; Shigefusa KU is _very_ good. I have punished mine so it looks a bit scrappy... but Shig KU is durable, even and nicely matte - almost like a powder. I don't know how I would feel about using a 165mm Santoku... It might be getting towards the short side of things.

I don't want to promise wonders but it is a nice knife..... if you are cooking domestically, the knife will fill your needs (not necessarily your wants). As others said, the santoku profile is like a nakiri with a more versatile tip. Our diet is 95% vegetarian and it is great for this. I use chopping, push/pull cutting, draw cutting and rock chopping - approximately in that order. If you have similar preferences a santoku will not hold you back!

Unless you do french style knife work with lots of board contact, a santoku is just fine. The short belly and low tip of a canonical santoku design is not great with guillotine and glide. No matter the knife profile, I don't like this method. My board is soft and can grab the edge. It feels 'sticky' and unsafe during the motion.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 17, 2021)

WiriWiri said:


> what the bleeding bull knackers has Kung fu got to do with It anyhow? I’m no shogun assassin



Kung Fu!? Shogun assassin!? China!? Japan!?  I'm getting mixed on the message here


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## WiriWiri (Jul 17, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Indeed! The whole idea of a French Chef's knife from 1890 or so, with its crazy distal taper, is exactly to have all functions in one blade.



Yep, you’ve probably realised that I’m not always entirely serious on here, but I definitely enjoy picking at the artificial distinction between good gyutos and shandy santokus. I’m not ashamed to say that one of the reasons I moved towards Japanese knives many years ago was to get away from the primacy of the heavy Euro Style chefs knifes (Wusthofs, Henckels or Gustavs in my case). I bought into the ideas of specialisation, embraced the different shapes - buying nakiri, yanas, debas, honesuki and a santoku or few - and the gyuto was just one part of the armoury, generally a laser styled precision cutter.

Ok, since then I’ve bought plenty of gyutos and got more fussy admittedly, but I still use the other‘types’ when the occasion merits -if I’ve a mountain of veg and need a big flat blade, it’s not always the gyuto that gets first dibs. And I still crave some variety and specialisation at heart - the current trend towards taller, heavier blades that do It all does seem to increasingly dictate that gyutos increasingly resemble the European brands I moved away from


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## spaceconvoy (Jul 17, 2021)

IsoJ said:


> I would take santoku over nakiri just because of the little tip it has. I've tried couple of good santokus and I can see having one again in my kitchen.


This is why I switched from a nakiri to a santoku as well. Then I went even further and found a 180mm gyuto with a flat-ish profile. And now I've ordered a custom with an even flatter edge. I'm starting to feel like a garasuki profile with a regular/thin grind would be ideal for this length. Stabby stabby


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## WiriWiri (Jul 17, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Kung Fu!? Shogun assassin!? China!? Japan!?  I'm getting mixed on the message here



Listen grasshopper., you should know that my previous post had been badly dubbed in traditional HK flick style, for authenticity like


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## M1k3 (Jul 17, 2021)

I like k-tip Nakiri's. Profile and short length makes them easy to sharpen.


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## Qapla' (Jul 17, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> This is why I switched from a nakiri to a santoku as well. Then I went even further and found a 180mm gyuto with a flat-ish profile. And now I've ordered a custom with an even flatter edge. I'm starting to feel like a garasuki profile with a regular/thin grind would be ideal for this length. Stabby stabby


Something like this? (Though not quite the exact length.)
https://www.**************.com/miskbu16ro.html


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## spaceconvoy (Jul 17, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> Something like this? (Though not quite the exact length.)
> https://www.**************.com/miskbu16ro.html


I was imagining a narrower tip. Petty in the front, nakiri in the back


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 17, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Not for me! I knew I was a fey aesthete from the off, and that k-tips were the only way to go. Nor indeed for @Carl Kotte - an even more discerning sort - who enjoys nothing more than the aural pleasure of a dirty old Kcid.
> 
> (Sorry... I promise I won't make any more kcid jokes  ).


Aural pleasure?! Trust me, it goes beyond the aural!!!


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## Ensis (Jul 17, 2021)

btbyrd said:


> I wasn't aware that Takeda made gyutos with a flat area.


I have both the small and medium Takeda gyutos, 210 and 240 respectively. They look like santokus, but with no flat spot whatsoever. At least mine.


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## knifeknight (Jul 17, 2021)

One of my favourites is a 180 mm Mizuno Honyaki B2 Santoku. It‘s incredible sharp and very useful when cutting „hard“ vegetables (carrots, turnips). Food release isn‘t one of its best features but it clearly beats any thin ground gyuto or petty (e.g. Tanaka W 210 mm gyuto as sold by JNS).


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## DitmasPork (Jul 17, 2021)

TB_London said:


> Haha, 240 gyutos seems to have sparked more controversy than santokus ever have.
> 
> If you use a 240 for everything you get adept with it as you build that muscle memory, when you then swap that for a different length it all goes out of whack. It’s Like Bruce Lee and punches, someone who has 50 knives has likely mastered none of them, someone with a 240 who’s mastered it is a person that produce fears



On the contrary, Bruce Lee was one who embraced a vast range of both eastern and western fighting techniques—whilst many would just stick to their chosen style. ‘Jeet Kun Do,’ the fighting art created by Bruce Lee is influenced by more than a dozen East/West fighting styles.

How this relates to knives and your comment? 24/7 I’d rather be in the ‘50 knives’ camp. Using many knives has helped improve my knife techniques, is more fun, taught me a lot about knife connoisseurship.

It doesn’t matter which knife I grab, I’ll still use the same knife skills. They’re just tools.

I’m all for people doing whatever it takes to use as many different types of kitchen knives possible.


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## mpier (Jul 17, 2021)

What do you all think about a cross over knife like this one, Gyuto, bunka, kiristuke 210 and 240


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## DitmasPork (Jul 17, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I was meaning on KKF, rather than in a geographical sense. Though going by many of the answers, I appear to have misjudged the membership!
> 
> ---
> 
> Interesting to hear everybody's thoughts, cheers. I'm feeling even more tempted by that Shig Santoku now. I might not even grind a k-tip into it... .


Me too. The gyuto is my main ride—but the number of santokus that have driven through BST; threads on the subject; and seeing a good amount of santokus in the hands of pro and home cooks can’t be ignored. TBH, I’m at the point of having so many gyutos that I’m chasing other knife types to try in my kitchen.


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## Elliot (Jul 17, 2021)

Short answer: For absolutely no good reason. It's a tool. It cuts ****.


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## cotedupy (Jul 17, 2021)

mpier said:


> What do you all think about a cross over knife like this one, Gyuto, bunka, kiristuke 210 and 240 View attachment 134629



7.5/10 Badass Points.

It loses three points because 'damascus' steel is naff. But gains half a point back because it's such a very _serious _knife that your man needs both hands to wield it properly.


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## dafox (Jul 17, 2021)

I bought a couple of santokus this week, a Kanehide TK and an Akifusa SRS15 western handle, have a Takamura R2 that I like, wanting to try a couple more


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## Benuser (Jul 17, 2021)

WiriWiri said:


> Yep, you’ve probably realised that I’m not always entirely serious on here, but I definitely enjoy picking at the artificial distinction between good gyutos and shandy santokus. I’m not ashamed to say that one of the reasons I moved towards Japanese knives many years ago was to get away from the primacy of the heavy Euro Style chefs knifes (Wusthofs, Henckels or Gustavs in my case). I bought into the ideas of specialisation, embraced the different shapes - buying nakiri, yanas, debas, honesuki and a santoku or few - and the gyuto was just one part of the armoury, generally a laser styled precision cutter.
> 
> Ok, since then I’ve bought plenty of gyutos and got more fussy admittedly, but I still use the other‘types’ when the occasion merits -if I’ve a mountain of veg and need a big flat blade, it’s not always the gyuto that gets first dibs. And I still crave some variety and specialisation at heart - the current trend towards taller, heavier blades that do It all does seem to increasingly dictate that gyutos increasingly resemble the European brands I moved away from


Modern European knives with their high tips and handle heavynes are not that interesting. Pre-WWII ones though are slightly forward balanced in the case of the Germans, and much more with French Nogents. The versatility comes from the extreme distal taper, both with French and German makers from that time. An early Henckels or Friedrich Dick are the best all-in-one you may imagine. Steel is usually harder and more predictable than with a lot of Sabs.


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## cotedupy (Jul 17, 2021)

...

So we're all agreed then that the Chinese cleaver is the Platonically Ideal kitchen knife, right...?


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 17, 2021)

Older carbon German knives were good.


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## chefwp (Jul 17, 2021)

WiriWiri said:


> Listen grasshopper., you should know that my previous post had been badly dubbed in traditional HK flick style, for authenticity like


I bet you also have crew in the background slamming 2x4s together every time your knife touches the board, you know, to get that old classic sound effect.


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## TB_London (Jul 17, 2021)

Thought it was a fairly famous quote
‎”I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.”

Talks about mastery of one thing rather than spreading yourself across a variety. Being analogous to someone who uses one knife a lot and learns how to use it well.

Was a light hearted poke, but seems this is a very serious topic for some…..


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## tcmx3 (Jul 17, 2021)

TB_London said:


> Thought it was a fairly famous quote
> ‎”I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.”
> 
> Talks about mastery of one thing rather than spreading yourself across a variety. Being analogous to someone who uses one knife a lot and learns how to use it well.
> ...



a lot of people who would not last very long against Bruce Lee sure do have strong opinions


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## spaceconvoy (Jul 17, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> a lot of people who would not last very long against Bruce Lee sure do have strong opinions


Pretty sure I could kick his ass now



TB_London said:


> Talks about mastery of one thing rather than spreading yourself across a variety. Being analogous to someone who uses one knife a lot and learns how to use it well.


Some new research suggests this isn't true, at least for the very top tier of performers:

"Adult world-class athletes engaged in more childhood/adolescent multisport practice, started their main sport later, accumulated less main-sport practice, and initially progressed more slowly than did national-class athletes"

"Nobel laureates had multidisciplinary study/working experience and slower early progress than did national-level award winners"






SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals


Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.




journals.sagepub.com


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## Ruso (Jul 17, 2021)

The problem with the santoku is that when I use one, I always wish it was a gyuto.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 17, 2021)

TB_London said:


> someone with a 240 who’s mastered it is a person that produce fears





TB_London said:


> analogous to someone who uses one knife a lot and learns how to use it well


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## daniel_il (Jul 18, 2021)

Im 99% using 240 gyuto, chinese cleaver(which replaced my german knives) and a petty.

for me santoku is associated with people that afraid from big knives(nothing wrong about that) or a bad\small workspace.


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## tostadas (Jul 18, 2021)

I tried the daily santoku in today's newspaper, but couldn't solve it.


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## Oshidashi (Jul 18, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Yeah… I get that a lot.
> 
> I mean I make some bad jokes everyday and people ignore and it’s all good with me. What I find funny is most people’s
> 
> ...



I'm a home cook, and have several 210 (and one shorter) gyutos that I use regularly. I was thinking about getting a 240 gyuto, just to have one, without any real justification. I think you just saved me >$300.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 18, 2021)

Oshidashi said:


> I'm a home cook, and have several 210 (and one shorter) gyutos that I use regularly. I was thinking about getting a 240 gyuto, just to have one, without any real justification. I think you just saved me >$300.



if you want a 240 just buy one and see if you like it. there's plenty on the BST that you can try for a few bucks and move on if they arent for you.

even with that what even is a 240? 240 blade length? 240 edge length? 46mm height or 55mm height? big handle, small handle, light weight, heavy weight, etc. 

just try stuff that looks interesting and if you dont like it move on to something new.


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## Oshidashi (Jul 18, 2021)

Now I'm again unsaved. The knife monkey is a tenacious beast.


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## Delat (Jul 18, 2021)

I only have one 240 and find it handy when I need a little more length for things like slicing cooked proteins or chopping a big pile of veggies. I don’t use it often but it’s nice to have when I need it. I never really intended to get one until I was cutting something with a 210 and thought, “A 240 would be nice for this”. I’m sticking with 210 as my regular go-to size though.

As for the original topic, once in a while when my wife’s 6” wusthof chef’s knife is already out on the board I’ll use it. But every time I feel really constrained by the length so I doubt a 160mm santoku would suit me. I might eventually try something in the 180mm range though. I don’t really care what the label is (gyuto or santoku) as long as there’s some upsweep towards the tip as opposed to being dead flat the entire length.


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## Benuser (Jul 19, 2021)

Oshidashi said:


> I'm a home cook, and have several 210 (and one shorter) gyutos that I use regularly. I was thinking about getting a 240 gyuto, just to have one, without any real justification. I think you just saved me >$300.


Most makers ask much more for a 240 than for a 210. If you were fine with a basic carbon one and just want to get an idea of what a size may do: the Fujiwara Kanefusa FKH ask about the same. Assuming you're right-handed, have a decent 240 for about US$ 100.








Fujiwara Kanefusa FKH Series Gyuto (180mm to 300mm, 5 sizes)


The Fujiwara FKH Gyuto offers all the advantages of a high carbon steel blade – edge sharpness, edge retention and ease of sharpening – at an affordable price.




japanesechefsknife.com


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 19, 2021)

240 are discussed a lot because in a pro kitchen with massive amount of cutting it is the perfect size IMO. 

Home with much less cutting esp. with smaller
cutting boards 210 even 180 work just fine.


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## inferno (Jul 22, 2021)

i like santoku. almost all my knives are santokus. or maybe 50%


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## Tapio (Jul 25, 2021)

I tend to gravitate towards bunka and nakiri. Santoku feels too compromised to my taste. Santoku’s tip is not as usefull as bunka’s tip is and nakiri has really good shoveling capabilitie. Bunka and nakiri also look good.


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## Jovidah (Jul 25, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Modern European knives with their high tips and handle heavynes are not that interesting.


I think you're on to something here, that explains santoku popularity in the 'mainstream'. The normal recommendation for normies is to get a 20cm / 8 inch chef's knife... but if you look at for example the Wüsthof chef's knife in that size, it has a ludicrous profile with an insane amount of belly. Given the choice between that and the 18cm santoku with a far flatter profile I'd probably opt for the santoku in that comparison as well.


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## Qapla' (Jul 26, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> I think you're on to something here, that explains santoku popularity in the 'mainstream'. The normal recommendation for normies is to get a 20cm / 8 inch chef's knife... but if you look at for example the Wüsthof chef's knife in that size, it has a ludicrous profile with an insane amount of belly. Given the choice between that and the 18cm santoku with a far flatter profile I'd probably opt for the santoku in that comparison as well.


Assuming western technique, what makes the belly design "insane"?


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## tcmx3 (Jul 26, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> Assuming western technique, what makes the belly design "insane"?



there's no need to be intentionally dense about what he meant.


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## Qapla' (Jul 26, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> there's no need to be intentionally dense about what he meant.


Not sure what you mean? He said _he_ would prefer the santoku given its profile belly. However, forumites here are _not at all_ the "mainstream". As such, his and their preferences (and usage techniques) likely aren't the same.

Given the prevalence of Japanese-made knives among the forumites here, it's not a secret that many have a preference for Japanized techniques. However, I doubt too many non-knife-knuts actively seek to deploy Japanized techniques, or are even aware of them. This is likely why things like Kanetsugu Saiun's and their apparent variants (e.g., Korin Nickel Damascus), and the endlessly-maligned Shun's exist.


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## Jovidah (Jul 26, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> Assuming western technique, what makes the belly design "insane"?


-It has almost no flat spot, meaning that any vertical chopping is just annoying
-The tip is a pain to use due to the extreme curve
-You don't actually need anywhere near this much curve to rockchop; even most Japanese gyuto profiles rockchop without any problems, without the concessions above

And assuming normies, in my experience those are more likely to push-cut or chop than actually use a rocking motion.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jul 26, 2021)

Everyone likes tall blade and low tip now, so a 210-240 santoku would be very popular if it’s a thing I guess. The normal 165-170 santoku is just too small. Seriously, the popular Toyanabe’s profile could be called santoku if the tip is a little lower.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 26, 2021)

Most modern German knives sold at places like Macy's are lowest common denominator blades thick behind edge, soft stainless, lousy edge retention, hard to sharpen, full finger guards making heel sharpening impossible.

Shuns often have upswept tips that have little 
function. In my many years in kitchens hardly ever saw cooks with German block set type knives. Saw & used a lot of Swiss Victorinox
formally Forschner. Now more cooks are using
Japanese knives. 

Santoku's aren't best looking blades, but they cut better than most block set German knives
I never used Santoku's at work, but I have seen others using them.


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## coxhaus (Jul 26, 2021)

Santoku are a strange beast to me with that down swept tip. I own 2, one Wusthof small and one Henckels 4star large. I can't get use to the low tip. It feels like I am dragging the tip around on the cutting board. My thought the whole time using it is that is why they make chef's knives. A chef's knife feels so much better in my hand. I am very old school so I like big chef's knives.

I don't know why the German's make such cheap knives. They make better but I guess the knife blocks cost too much with better knives. So, maybe they make a lot of money selling cheap knives. Germans are even farming out some of the cheap German knives to China. How cheap are they going to go? I guess people buy it.

Back when I worked in a restaurant in the 1960's Henckels 4star knives were King. I have a bunch of Henckels 4star knives from back then that were my mom's and they still work great for me. They are 50 years old with very little blade gone. They will last another generation or 2.


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