# Thoughts on tip sharing



## Tony (Nov 8, 2020)

A discussion came up today on tip sharing with chefs/cooks/kitchen help what are your thoughts?


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## btbyrd (Nov 8, 2020)

Tipping is an awful system and should be abolished.


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## WildBoar (Nov 8, 2020)

I'm not a restaurant worker, so my view likely doesn't count for ****. But I believe the kitchen people get a raw ****ing deal while servers at many places can make a great living (at least pre-covid). I've always wished the tips I leave would have half go to the kitchen workers. But as with btbyrd, I think tipping should be abolished, and should be replaced by higher wages for both servers and kitchen workers.


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## GorillaGrunt (Nov 8, 2020)

Tipping is a crappy system but taking its existence as a given I’d say sharing would make things better - it’d alleviate some of the us and them mentality and align the interests of everyone in the business from an organizational psych/game theory standpoint


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## M1k3 (Nov 9, 2020)

Ideally abolish. But we don't live in an ideal world. 

I'm totally for tip sharing. 
BoH needs FoH. 
FoH needs BoH. 
It's not complicated.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 9, 2020)

SHARE!

I am not an American... and I am pretty sure @Tony asked in the context of America. From a foreign point-of-view, it seems completely ****ed up to have 'culturally mandatory' tips to support a minimum wage that is not a living wage.

It also creates this weird dichotomy of obsequious, phoney customer service in tipping customer service and potentially bare-faced apathy and rudeness in non-tipping customer service. I know this is not the best representation of non-tipping customer service, but I went with a family member to return an AT&T modem once.... My god... awful.... it was like some level of purgatory or Dante's inferno.

I acknowledge tipping is cultural. To me, 'mandatory' tipping seems to defeat the purpose of what I consider tipping to be: to reward the business/person for exceptional service and quality. Again, I am aware that my opinion is informed by my culture. This is how tipping is viewed in Australia. It is the exception and not the rule. As I understand it, tipping can even be seen as rude or awkward in some Asian countries.

If I were an American consumer I would want to know whether the tips were shared amongst _all_ the staff. If the tips were shared, I would be inclined to be more generous. I find it unjust that the dishwashers have no opportunity to sweet-talk customers into higher tips simply because they are back of house. Yet... I like to eat on clean plates... But thats just me ... if we're going to subsidise the minimum wage... shouldn't it be everyones' minimum wage?


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## GorillaGrunt (Nov 9, 2020)

Not to take this on too far of a tangent but while restaurant and bar and barber and delivery tipping is bad enough since that’s been established And entrenched for some time — Uber tipping is superlatively bogus because that is a brand new thing and the companies had an opportunity to shape the norms surrounding it from the ground up and chose to shirk paying drivers appropriately.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 9, 2020)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Uber tipping is superlatively bogus because that is a brand new thing and the companies had an opportunity to shape the norms surrounding it from the ground up and chose to shirk paying drivers appropriately.



Again... as a non-American I have a different view. Ask yourself why you are tipping? If the reason is to supplement incomes... why not tip gig-economy workers?

The thing that is shafting gig economy workers is electronic transactions. While Australia largely does not tip, some of that is a consequence of digital transactions. We were pretty early movers on those technologies. In the older days, "keep the change" was a pretty common method of tipping - and certainly something you might do to a pizza delivery driver. It is still easily done to taxi drivers. Now that physical currency has been leap-frogged by virtual payments, people in gig-economy arrangements don't benefit from that 'rounding error'.

I simply choose to avoid the gig economy but if I didn't I would seriously consider carrying change for tipping. Why not? Again this comes back to tip sharing... if the purpose is to supplement incomes in these industries... should it matter what platform the service is based on?


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## Luftmensch (Nov 9, 2020)

Actually... it would be cool for non-Americans to get an American perspective on tipping as well. 

*Why do Americans actually tip (expectation aside)**?*

If there is a range of answers to that question, it might illuminate a philosophical difference in attitude to tip sharing with back of house.


** Maybe my understanding/assumptions are wrong.


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## juice (Nov 9, 2020)

Tony said:


> A discussion came up today on tip sharing with chefs/cooks/kitchen help what are your thoughts?


Just pay people a living wage, and charge accordingly. #FirstWorldSolutions


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## Matus (Nov 9, 2020)

There are countries where giving a tip is not acceptable and could be interpreted as rude. On the other hand there are countries where not giving tip can be rude or simply not acceptable (been to US only once and that was in Boston and I was told by colleagues that tip must be at least certain amount of the ordered food value).

I agree - I would prefer world where the price of the food and drinks I am paying gives the workers a fair wage - the tip comes without taxes, but it also does nothing for your pension or health insurance.

Back to the real world .... I think tips should be shared - the chef in the kitchen is the guy who actually cooked my meal and should get at least 50% of the tip.


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## Dhoff (Nov 9, 2020)

Matus said:


> There are countries where giving a tip is not acceptable and could be interpreted as rude. On the other hand there are countries where not giving tip can be rude or simply not acceptable (been to US only once and that was in Boston and I was told by colleagues that tip must be at least certain amount of the ordered food value).
> 
> I agree - I would prefer world where the price of the food and drinks I am paying gives the workers a fair wage - the tip comes without taxes, but it also does nothing for your pension or health insurance.
> 
> Back to the real world .... I think tips should be shared - the chef in the kitchen is the guy who actually cooked my meal and should get at least 50% of the tip.



And in some countries, tipping with coins is seen as an insult but bills are not... Confusing world this is.


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## Dull_Apex (Nov 9, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> The thing that is shafting gig economy workers is electronic transactions. While Australia largely does not tip, some of that is a consequence of digital transactions. We were pretty early movers on those technologies. In the older days, "keep the change" was a pretty common method of tipping - and certainly something you might do to a pizza delivery driver. It is still easily done to taxi drivers. Now that physical currency has been leap-frogged by virtual payments, people in gig-economy arrangements don't benefit from that 'rounding error'.


I'm not sure that this is the still case. 

When the EFTPOS terminal isn't connected to the register you can see the person key in the value then hit enter twice. Between the two is a prompt for tip amount (you can see the label when they only hit enter once)


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## Tony (Nov 9, 2020)

This is a good discussion

I'm actually in Canada and in this situation, staff are paid competitive wages. Tips are not expected but appreciated

Also since covid there is no dine in, take out only

Those who are in favour of tip sharing how would you split or what formula do you use


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## labor of love (Nov 9, 2020)

So many cheap ass customers that don’t tip, the preferred conversation for me would be to do away with tipping all together and have higher prices included in the check to cover wages for FOH and BOH. 
Although many restaurants seem to be using covid to justify reducing wages for new hires too.


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## Tony (Nov 9, 2020)

I get the idea of doing away with tips but for this discussion, foh/boh staff are already paid good competitive wages


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## spaceconvoy (Nov 9, 2020)

** edited completely after seeing Tony's clarification ** 

I don't think "servers earn their tips through their job performance" is a compelling argument in my experience. I don't know anyone who adjusts the tip based on service, and generally people just pay a certain percentage no matter what. Even for terrible service I've seen people pay their typical amount out of a sense of duty, knowing it's a big part of someone's living wage. The server would have to personally insult their mother or do something egregious to reduce the tip.

That's said from a college town. I can imagine a very different tipping culture in a waterfront tourist-dominated area, for instance. I guess it depends on the typical behavior of the customers.


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## AT5760 (Nov 9, 2020)

Does anyone (besides restaurant owners) actually like the U.S. mandatory tip culture?


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## Tony (Nov 9, 2020)

AT5760 said:


> Does anyone (besides restaurant owners) actually like the U.S. mandatory tip culture?



I'm good with tips as an option but I believe it should be a bonus not part of your wage. Appreciate it but don't expect it 

I don't agree with what I hear about the US industry paying little to nothing for wages I've seen posts about $2-3/ hour wage


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## Dhoff (Nov 9, 2020)

AT5760 said:


> Does anyone (besides restaurant owners) actually like the U.S. mandatory tip culture?



I can only speak for my own experiences. Here I'd say, it is not common to tip. 

Many of the restaurants I have extremely bad service, some worse than others. This is, of course, also a matter of whether you go to an expensive, average or inexpensive place.

When I went to US for honeymoon, it was always good service. So, maybe tips help in that regard?


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## MarcelNL (Nov 9, 2020)

Having travelled a fair bit my conclusion is that paying 'the check' in the US is the most difficult bit after having found my way through the (sometimes ridiculously) plentiful options of the menu, water waiter, seater, doormen, waiters separate tips or all in one tips and how much....

I could easily see that many would welcome that ritual dance being replaced by the knowledge that all workers get a decent pay. In the end the total bill does not get that much higher. Tipping to me is a bonus, to be applied where appliccable.
Would the pretty easy way of hiring and firing in the US not have more influence on service than tipping?

To me service is an attitude, which ought to be fostered by restaurant owners as much as serving quality. BTW; I do vary my tip according to the quality of the food, the level of service/how I liked the whole experience.


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## tcmx3 (Nov 9, 2020)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Not to take this on too far of a tangent but while restaurant and bar and barber and delivery tipping is bad enough since that’s been established And entrenched for some time — Uber tipping is superlatively bogus because that is a brand new thing and the companies had an opportunity to shape the norms surrounding it from the ground up and chose to shirk paying drivers appropriately.



If the Uber company was a human being you'd punch them in the face and anyone who was there would deny they saw anything.

I dont think a lot of people outside of tech understand just how bad they are; this is a company that passed the line of outright mistreating all of their staff minus c-suite and engineering a LONG time ago and has now moved into _I Have no Mouth and I Must Scream_ levels of awfulness.


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## LewRob80 (Nov 9, 2020)

As a chef currently in Canada, and having spent time in the US, I’ve seen the different angles, from terrible to decent wages, and no tips for kitchen to pooled tip out for kitchen, the variance is quite astounding. 
I believe that tipping should be removed from its current feeling of “requirement” in North America. Prices should be raised and salaries should be given to everyone. As this seems entirely unlikely, tipping out the kitchen should be a must. 
We currently use a 3.5% of total sales model for tip out to kitchen staff (which is the highest I’ve seen). In our kitchen that correlates to about 50% of 1 paycheck a month in cash, sometimes hiring depending on how busy.


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## juice (Nov 9, 2020)

Dhoff said:


> When I went to US for honeymoon, it was always good service. So, maybe tips help in that regard?


Generally very good service down here (that I've experienced) without tipping, so maybe it's culture.



redisburning said:


> If the Uber company was a human being you'd punch them in the face and anyone who was there would deny they saw anything.


Indeed. I refuse to use them as a result of their corporate behaviour since the very beginning.


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## Ben.G. (Nov 9, 2020)

Tony said:


> I'm actually in Canada and in this situation, staff are paid competitive wages. Tips are not expected but appreciated
> 
> Also since covid there is no dine in, take out only
> 
> Those who are in favour of tip sharing how would you split or what formula do you use


I also live in Canada. Tips are very much expected here. Servers are the only workers in my province that can be paid below minimum wage. At the end of the day, they still make more money than the cooks because of tips.

Our card reader terminals have tips options on screen before the customer can pay. There are preset buttons for 15%, 20%, 25%, “other amount” or “no tip”. Customers will not be treated as well on their next visit if they choose not to tip. This is common in all restaurants here.

Our kitchen staff get a tip-out equal to 3% of sales, split among the BoH according to number of hours worked. The servers must pay this amount into the kitchen pool regardless of how much they made in tips. (They always make more) If a table does not tip, the server must still pay out 3% of the bill to the kitchen pool and would lose money on that table, but this is very uncommon. Other restaurants that I have worked in did 2%.

We continue to have dine-in service here, despite covid, but take-out business has increased dramatically.


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## Midsummer (Nov 9, 2020)

I am not answering the OP’s question; but a lot of places in my area have requests at check out for Tip in places that are take out or self serve.

I have become accustomed to considering all restaurant fair to be 20% more than what the menu lists. I routinely TIP 20% for good service.

But for take out and self serve to routinely ask for the same 20, 25, or 30% TIP is just an attempt to take advantage of custom.

A business should charge what it needs to properly pay every one. It should not be left as an option to pay. And if the service sucks the business is responsible.

I have no issue paying for what I get. Optional TIP- BS.


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## Gunslingerheel (Nov 9, 2020)

My daughters have worked in restaurants. Everyone shares in the tips. I see nothing wrong with the concept of tips but it should be used for merit. In other words great service great tip. Lousy service lousy tip. Pretty simple.


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## YumYumSauce (Nov 9, 2020)

Ive done both boh and foh. I always try to tip well but I also think it's flawed. Kinda crazy servers can make more in a night than cooks get all week for a fraction of the work and have the audacity to complain.


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## juice (Nov 9, 2020)

Gunslingerheel said:


> I see nothing wrong with the concept of tips but it should be used for merit.


But we all know that it's actually used for the purposes of paying people almost nothing.


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## Byphy (Nov 9, 2020)

Fair wages > tips.

Kanji > everything.


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## M1k3 (Nov 9, 2020)

Rune and feather makers marks are really cool also


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## jacko9 (Nov 9, 2020)

There are too many states that "assume" that wait staff earn so much in tips that they reduce the minimum wage to those people. The whole system sucks but, there is no easy answer unless somebody can figure out how to make a living wage work.


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## juice (Nov 9, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> but, there is no easy answer unless somebody can figure out how to make a living wage work.


Works decently in first-world countries.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 9, 2020)

Dull_Apex said:


> I'm not sure that this is the still case.
> 
> When the EFTPOS terminal isn't connected to the register you can see the person key in the value then hit enter twice. Between the two is a prompt for tip amount (you can see the label when they only hit enter once)



Sure... tipping on EFTPOS is easy. The system accommodates it. 

Go back 20 years... if you had a lunch/dinner with friends you were more likely to pay in physical currency than you are now. If the meal was $27.60 per head, it was common for the group to round up to the nearest note, in this case $30. The restaurant would then get a tip of $2.40 per head. This saved the party from buggering about with small change. 

Now you can just ask the restaurant to divide by 'N' and each tap your card. You can still tip!!!

But my original point was that even this has been bypassed in the gig economy. I don't use Uber etc... but as I understand it, you enter your card details once, order a car and it just 'magically' appears. You get in the car and get out at your destination. The transaction is automatic and happens in the background. You don't have to think about it... just poke some pixels representing a button on a screen. Same with food delivery services.... I know if there is an option to tip on these platforms?? Is there?? I wouldnt be surprised if they wanted a cut of that money if they allowed for it...


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## Luftmensch (Nov 9, 2020)

Tony said:


> I'm actually in Canada and in this situation, staff are paid competitive wages.



Apologies for the assumption! 



Tony said:


> for this discussion, foh/boh staff are already paid good competitive wages



That is good to hear. It doesnt change the equity of distribution though. A wise man once said:



M1k3 said:


> BoH needs FoH.
> FoH needs BoH.



Splitting by hours worked seems fair...




Ben.G. said:


> I also live in Canada. Tips are very much expected here.



This is juicy... which is it? Expected or not? I have not been to Canada yet. I would love to visit. Is it a west-coast, east-coast thing?


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## Luftmensch (Nov 9, 2020)

juice said:


> Generally very good service down here (that I've experienced) without tipping, so maybe it's culture.



In fact... the oracle says as much:



> In countries such as Australia and Japan where tips are not given, the service is found to be as good as in America.[10]



Its on the internet... it must be true... right...


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## tcmx3 (Nov 9, 2020)

rofl imagine being Thomas Keller and hearing a bunch of people who will never eat in your restaurants call you names.

my ego would grow SO much.


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## Tony (Nov 9, 2020)

Ben.G. said:


> I also live in Canada. Tips are very much expected here. Servers are the only workers in my province that can be paid below minimum wage. At the end of the day, they still make more money than the cooks because of tips.
> 
> Our card reader terminals have tips options on screen before the customer can pay. There are preset buttons for 15%, 20%, 25%, “other amount” or “no tip”. Customers will not be treated as well on their next visit if they choose not to tip. This is common in all restaurants here.
> 
> ...



Must be a different province thing

Point of sale machines here have tip options too but it's usually %, Amount or okay to continue. Some places might have a tip jar 

I'm not sure servers could afford to pay out 3% of sales here I don't think they consistently make more than that at least in the places I know


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## Tony (Nov 9, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Apologies for the assumption!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think so the west coast is very different than the east coast


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## YumYumSauce (Nov 10, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> In fact... the oracle says as much:
> 
> 
> 
> Its on the internet... it must be true... right...



Almost any service in Japan is probably way better than the US. And if you try to tip, they'll chase after you and tell you you left your change.


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## Alwayzbakin (Nov 10, 2020)

This topic comes at the right time for me.
I always resented the way it worked from a cooks perspective here. I moved overseas for 8 years. Australia, NZ, HK, I would leave tips at fine restaurants because I was still a confused American, but most of the time I realised it was not part of the culture. I certainly never received tips in the BOH anywhere there. It made me resent the US system even more.

I moved back to the us and compared my wife’s paychecks at 30hrs/week in FOH to mine at 55-60 in the BOH... I made the decision to end my 15 years cooking and switch teams. No matter how much I love cooking I just cant justify it anymore.


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## YumYumSauce (Nov 10, 2020)

AT5760 said:


> Does anyone (besides restaurant owners) actually like the U.S. mandatory tip culture?



Strippers? Vegas is probably different but I know a friend of a friend whos a server, drives an nsx, rocks an audumars piguet. I heard valets were making 80k 15 yrs ago.


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## YumYumSauce (Nov 10, 2020)

redisburning said:


> rofl imagine being Thomas Keller and hearing a bunch of people who will never eat in your restaurants call you names.
> 
> my ego would grow SO much.



I dont think I saw anyone mention him here. I respect the hell out of what he's done but wasnt he asking for donations to pay HIS employees a little while ago? There's a bit more I could say but not sure if it's in good taste.


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## tcmx3 (Nov 10, 2020)

YumYumSauce said:


> I dont think I saw anyone mention him here. I respect the hell out of what he's done but wasnt he asking for donations to pay HIS employees a little while ago? There's a bit more I could say but not sure if it's in good taste.



Sorry, I was responding to link in someone's post, which was about the melt down people were having when Keller did away with tipping at Per Se.

I personally have this perception that the people saying that are likely people with zero taste, who wouldn't eat at the restaurant anyway, just teeing up on a New York place with a California chef. Ive lived all around the US and the jealously of what those two places have culturally is immense.

As far as paying your workers during covid, if you're doing zero covers and you have as many people on staff as him, I doubt even he has enough to bankroll that. I will grant the man is certainly quite rich but that kind of thing adds up quickly. Is it ok for music venues to do it and not him? What about bands with tour crews? I dunno Im trying to not judge too much on that front; it's not like when Amazon did it despite remaining opening, spreading covid by staying open, having their stock price rocket by over 30% in six month, continuing to have above average revenue streams, etc.


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## mpier (Nov 10, 2020)

I remember when I was a kid my dad telling me the amount you tip was for how good the food was and how good the service was, there was no set percentage. Now of course there is a certain percentage you need to give them or you look like a cheap skate, or they just add it to your bill and you have to pay it which kinda undermines the hole intended purpose. When I bussed and cleaned dishes at a restaurant in my youth I would bust ass for the servers only to get a couple of extra bucks while they toke home a couple of hundred. I found the hole thing totally unfair that we as customers need to put down a percentage but servers do not need to give a percentage to those who make it happen on there end. My wife and I go to a Sushi restaurant every Friday a small mom and pops type, there I can tip the server and they have a jar we can tip the kitchen as well that’s the way it should be.


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## Twigg (Nov 12, 2020)

If someone serves me food in a restaurant, they are getting a decent tip, unless there are extraordinary circumstances. The public sucks in general and waiters and waitresses have to put up with a lot of BS. They deal with all types, self important asswipe influencers, Kardashian wannabes, salesman that think the world revolves around them, etc. and good decent people that understand that it is hard work to serve people. I do think that the BoH should get a taste of the action too. 

Also, always tip your barber.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 13, 2020)

Alwayzbakin said:


> I moved back to the us and compared my wife’s paychecks at 30hrs/week in FOH to mine at 55-60 in the BOH... I made the decision to end my 15 years cooking and switch teams. No matter how much I love cooking I just cant justify it anymore.



That sucks... sorry to hear it. Out of interest... was the FOH/BOH pay difference in AU/NZ/HK the reverse? I am not part of the industry but I imagine work in the kitchen is considered higher skilled and paid at a higher rate? Certainly as a chef? If tips are taken out of the equation, wouldn't that favour BOH?


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## Alwayzbakin (Nov 16, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> That sucks... sorry to hear it. Out of interest... was the FOH/BOH pay difference in AU/NZ/HK the reverse? I am not part of the industry but I imagine work in the kitchen is considered higher skilled and paid at a higher rate? Certainly as a chef? If tips are taken out of the equation, wouldn't that favour BOH?


I’m not too sure about FOH take home in AU/HK; in those two countries I had jobs that paid relatively well compared to elsewhere, although I think i just happened to find high paying restaurants in those places.
In New Zealand I can say it did seem like the opposite of here based on my experience and what I knew from wife/friends. FOH got minimum wage (not too bad in Auckland though) or a couple dollars more and often kitchen a dollar or two above that. Because of the difference in hours and the low frequency of tips, BOH makes more money there (again, from what I saw)


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## Midsummer (Nov 16, 2020)

Why should it be an option to pay someone for their work? Why should I have to do a math problem at the end of my meal after I have eaten well and had a good bottle of wine? Just charge me one fee. Or maybe I should tip FOH, BOH, Janitor, fish monger.....Perhaps I should arrange Christmas presents and child care. 

I spend my day thinking of other peoples problems; why would I pay to go out to where I need to be concerned that the workers are getting a decent wage. What an idiotic system!!!!!!


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## tcmx3 (Nov 16, 2020)

Midsummer said:


> Why should it be an option to pay someone for their work? Why should I have to do a math problem at the end of my meal after I have eaten well and had a good bottle of wine? Just charge me one fee. Or maybe I should tip FOH, BOH, Janitor, fish monger.....Perhaps I should arrange Christmas presents and child care.
> 
> I spend my day thinking of other peoples problems; why would I pay to go out to where I need to be concerned that the workers are getting a decent wage. What an idiotic system!!!!!!



it's really, really, really hard for me to imagine I would be ok with clients deciding if I deserved full pay when the majority of them hadnt even made it to high school calculus. I work out a wage with people who have a lot of knowledge of the market, what I'm doing, what it's like to work with me day after day, etc. I agree to do work, I do an adequate job and I stay employed.

the reason I tip even when I think waitstaff sucks is that they're doing their job. Id rather pay full price and leave a complaint, than stiff someone.

just charge how much it costs. I really, really despise living in a world where Im always having to check if Im getting the whole discount, playing ring around the ****ing rosie with idiotic sales taxes that sometimes I pay and sometimes I don't, the mindgames at car dealers, and having to figure out how much stuff really costs at a restaurant (because Im not stupid enough to believe it's the number written on the menu if the staff is getting paid about 3.50 an hour)

Im with you Midsummer, let's nuke all this dumb **** and while we're at it take the imperial measuring system, recipes by volume and daylight savings time and put them in the trash like we have some semblance of a civilization over here.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 16, 2020)

tcmx3 said:


> it's really, really, really hard for me to imagine I would be ok with clients deciding if I deserved full pay when the majority of them hadnt even made it to high school calculus. I work out a wage with people who have a lot of knowledge of the market, what I'm doing, what it's like to work with me day after day, etc. I agree to do work, I do an adequate job and I stay employed.
> 
> the reason I tip even when I think waitstaff sucks is that they're doing their job. Id rather pay full price and leave a complaint, than stiff someone.
> 
> ...



Whoa!!!! I was with you 100% until daylight savings 

But perhaps that depends on what your intentions are. I am an evening person and love having long evenings after work in summer. I hate it when that is 'stolen' from us in winter and it is dark by the time I get home from work.... Now... if they could just permanently make it daylight savings.... sure 


I forgot about the (state-patchwork) sales tax thing... yeah... that is insane. Just put the actual cost at the register on the damned menu!!


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## Luftmensch (Nov 16, 2020)

Alwayzbakin said:


> I’m not too sure about FOH take home in AU/HK; in those two countries I had jobs that paid relatively well compared to elsewhere, although I think i just happened to find high paying restaurants in those places.
> In New Zealand I can say it did seem like the opposite of here based on my experience and what I knew from wife/friends. FOH got minimum wage (not too bad in Auckland though) or a couple dollars more and often kitchen a dollar or two above that. Because of the difference in hours and the low frequency of tips, BOH makes more money there (again, from what I saw)



Thanks for the reply!  

Good to hear... that is how I would imagine it is in AU/NZ.... and as @Dull_Apex was saying _if_ tips are given, they are more likely to be electronic - so they don't necessarily immediately make it into the pockets of FOH.

Australia and New Zealand's 'shame' is that we have the largest temporary migrant workforces in the developed world _per capita_. It is good for the consumer (and business) but it is effectively a way of keeping wages low. This is bad for the wages and conditions of domestic workers where it is common. Fortunately our minimum wage is closer to a living wage - only a dollar or two short.


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## juice (Nov 17, 2020)

But guys, then the people running the business would have to do hard stuff like work out how to actually run a business. Can't have that.



Luftmensch said:


> Just put the actual cost at the register on the damned menu!!


And it's illegal down here to not do that, but I guess that means we've got no FREEDUMS or we're communists or something.



Luftmensch said:


> Fortunately our minimum wage is closer to a living wage - only a dollar or two short.


Yeah, that's a pretty important caveat, that one.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 17, 2020)

juice said:


> And it's illegal down here to not do that



Absolutely. Dead simple.

America can be a bit bewildering as an international tourist.... and dare I say it... it might even be a little bewildering for a domestic traveller.



juice said:


> Yeah, that's a pretty important caveat, that one.



Definitely. I dont mean to diminish it. 

I had a look at this before posting. It was about a dollary-doo in difference. That surprised me. It really depends on what 'living income' means. In the article I read, it was defined as 60% of the median income. The definition was derived from a British target. One imbalance with that definition is that it is blurred across _all_ cities. The living costs in a city like Sydney or Melbourne are much, much higher than... say... Toowoomba (sorry Toowoomba). That means the quality of life on a 60% national median income in Sydney/Melbourne might not feel like a 'living income'. Similarly that amount of income in Toowoomba might feel more luxurious. _Maybe_ this is ok - it might be a minor incentive to decentralise our capital cities...


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## juice (Nov 17, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> _Maybe_ this is ok - it might be a minor incentive to decentralise our capital cities...


Yeah, we're moving out of Melbourne in a couple of months.


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## Colin (Nov 18, 2020)

FOH should receive the tips (to make up for the fact they get $2.13/hr). BOH should get paid more per hour than minimum wage, but should not receive tips.


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## M1k3 (Nov 19, 2020)

Colin said:


> FOH should receive the tips (to make up for the fact they get $2.13/hr). BOH should get paid more per hour than minimum wage, but should not receive tips.


There's places like the City of L.A. where tipped and non-tipped still have the same minimum wage. There's a patchwork of how it's handled in different states, counties and cities.


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## Travis petosa (Nov 27, 2020)

I've worked in tipless and tipped restaurants. Tipless in CA... the restaurant no longer exists. For an independent restaurant to operate on liveable and decent wages it's extremely hard to do without tipping. In a city like LA where the cost of living is higher it's near impossible. I worked out some pretty decent numbers trying to get that restaurant to work and came up with a pretty fair system and take some of the pressure off the business and puts more money in peoples pockets. 
No pooled tips, keep what you're tipped. 
every FoH pays out 7% of tips to the BoH crew based on hours they have worked. 
I cant remember the exact numbers I was getting on paycheck with the system but it was the best of both worlds IMO, servers earn their pay individually and BoH get a little extra(i think it was an average of a 2$ bump an hour). 

Places like LA are very weird in their labor laws, for example if you are a BoH employee you are not entitled to any tips unless you have a forward facing work place i.e. you interact with the customers. Often times this ***** over the BoH employee being stuck to minimum wage because thats all most restaurants can afford to operate at.


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## M1k3 (Nov 27, 2020)

Travis petosa said:


> I've worked in tipless and tipped restaurants. Tipless in CA... the restaurant no longer exists. For an independent restaurant to operate on liveable and decent wages it's extremely hard to do without tipping. In a city like LA where the cost of living is higher it's near impossible. I worked out some pretty decent numbers trying to get that restaurant to work and came up with a pretty fair system and take some of the pressure off the business and puts more money in peoples pockets.
> No pooled tips, keep what you're tipped.
> every FoH pays out 7% of tips to the BoH crew based on hours they have worked.
> I cant remember the exact numbers I was getting on paycheck with the system but it was the best of both worlds IMO, servers earn their pay individually and BoH get a little extra(i think it was an average of a 2$ bump an hour).
> ...


Los Angeles and California in general allow tip pooling, minus Management (basically anyone able to hire and fire).


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