# Chipped My Carter in Only 4 Days



## mr drinky (Jun 18, 2011)

So I got my 205mm Carter funayuki this week. At first the light weight (119g) threw me off, but I must admit that the light weight has grown on me a bit since then. I also like the short size. Since having a newborn in the house and doing the stay-at-home Dad thing, I find myself reaching for smaller knives these days. I'm not sure why, but it happens. 

The knife was blistering sharp out of the box and could easily slice a dropped piece of thin advertisement paper in its descent. (Note: I did not take my clothes off to do this as Salty did.) 

The contrast between the laminate/cladding and core steel is cool. The toothy patina edge looks similar to my hiro but a bit better. 

So back to the chip. 

I am making some stock for a carrot and mint risotto, and to make the stock I am chopping up a leek. So I slice the end of the dark stuff off and hit stone. Chip.

It isn't a bad chip, but a chip nonetheless. The worst thing was that it kept grabbing the cloth when I wiped the blade down. So after only a handful of hours of use, I chipped my Father's day gift. Oh well.

Strange thing is that it didn't bother me in the least bit. I guess I am just going to have to use the chip as an excuse to buy another knife 

k.


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## Tristan (Jun 18, 2011)

Dibs on the chipped knife at the buy and sell forums:razz:


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## Mattias504 (Jun 18, 2011)

It always sucks to chip a knife. Especially a new one. Waaay back in the day when I got my first J knife ( a Shun classic 10"), I was prepping at work and there was like a staple or something in the cutting board that I didn't see and I put like 3 sizable chips in the edge. It was only like the second or third day of owning it. This was back when I was a rock chopper so it took a couple of cuts before I realized something was wrong...


How bad is the chip? Can you take a pic of it?


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## kalaeb (Jun 18, 2011)

Don't you have a new kick a sharpening station? No big deal, break out the stones, you know you want too.


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## Seb (Jun 18, 2011)

What's the hardness rating on that thing?


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## mr drinky (Jun 18, 2011)

kalaeb said:


> Don't you have a new kick a sharpening station? No big deal, break out the stones, you know you want too.



Yeah, I do have the new sharpening station and that is probably why I didn't care as much. I repaired smaller chips on a shun and tosagata nakiri the other night. I had a beer and some knives, and when I looked up it was 3 am. My knives were sharper though. 

I'll see if I can take a picture.

k.


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## Lefty (Jun 18, 2011)

Leeks are a-holes, and notorious for this...sorry about your luck, but I'm glad you're liking the knife!


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## heirkb (Jun 18, 2011)

Note to self, don't use Shig on leeks.


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## mr drinky (Jun 18, 2011)

Seb said:


> What's the hardness rating on that thing?


 
I'm not sure about the hardness. This is a quote from his FAQ page:

"The knives should come in around HRC 63-64 after I heat them in a pine charcoal fire, quench them in water, then temper them over the open flames of the forge. I use no modern measuring device for temperature, etc. It is all done by eye and experience (and a silent prayer never hurts, either). I can only guess as to the HRC of each blade as they are all heat treated one at a time, by hand, without the aid of any modern devices."

With that said, couldn't he have bought one of Marko's two hardness testers? I find it a bit hard to believe that he doesn't know.

k.


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## rockbox (Jun 18, 2011)

MC just doesn't care. In his eyes, his knives perform, so it doesn't matter what the hardness is. Its just a number to him.


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## Lefty (Jun 18, 2011)

I like that attitude, actually


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## Lefty (Jun 18, 2011)

Well, to a point.
Sometimes we get too hung up on numbers and steel types, etc here. It's part of the fun for us, but I can see where Murray is coming from.


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## mr drinky (Jun 18, 2011)

Lefty said:


> Well, to a point.
> Sometimes we get too hung up on numbers and steel types, etc here. It's part of the fun for us, but I can see where Murray is coming from.


 
That is true. I don't get too hung up on that stuff either. But I like when I accidentally ask someone at a kitchen store what the hardness of a knife steel is. The look they give me is priceless -- then I realize I am either a nerd or a douche bag. 

k.


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## JohnnyChance (Jun 19, 2011)

mr drinky said:


> But I like when I accidentally ask someone at a kitchen store what the hardness of a knife steel is.



"Umm, pretty hard. It is made of steel after all."


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## apicius9 (Jun 19, 2011)

Lefty said:


> Leeks are a-holes, and notorious for this...sorry about your luck, but I'm glad you're liking the knife!


 
Hey, no flaming my favorite vegetable!  But you are right, before I have them cleaned, I only use my Global utility on them. Once they are washed, I'll get out a real knife... Sorry to hear about the chip!

Stefan


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## Noodle Soup (Jun 19, 2011)

I once found a number of tiny chips in a new Carter knife I was using and complained to Murray about it. He simply sharpened them out and gave me the knife back. As I understood it, he considered a few small chips in the edge normal until you had broken a new blade in with a few trips to the waterstone.


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

That sounds reminiscent of VG10. I have a tiny tiny chip in my edge, but it isn't affecting cutting ability, so I'll just get it out next time, on the stones. For mine, I'm not surprised. I've used it HARD since the day I bought it, basically.


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## Mattias504 (Jun 19, 2011)

A lot of knives are chippy before you sharpen them. My Heiji gyuto chipped a bit before I sharpened it the first time. I was curious to see how it cut out of the box. It performed well but the "stock" edge was a bit weak. Sharpened it from 1k up and its never had those problems since.


I'm still curious to see how big this chip is.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Jun 19, 2011)

Chipping has to do with a heat treatment (blades in over 63RC hardness will be more brittle) and edge stability of a steel. 

Traditional Japanese smiths (and Carter claims to be one) rely on eye to determine temperature of a heated metal (by color) before quenching. I would bet if you test for hardness a batch of knives from the same smith, you will find some variation in hardness. 

My guess, many of these knives are over-hardened (not drawn to RC where they are more stable) and brittle at the edge, so a micro bevel or a less acute angle is required.

M


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

I think it's safe to say he is an unconventional Traditional Japanese smith.
I would think the edge and anywhere that is thinner on a knife would be hardened more than a thicker portion, based on heat transfer, so yeah, that makes sense.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Jun 19, 2011)

Lefty said:


> I think it's safe to say he is an unconventional Traditional Japanese smith.
> I would think the edge and anywhere that is thinner on a knife would be hardened more than a thicker portion, based on heat transfer, so yeah, that makes sense.


 
I don't know if he water or oil quenches his blades, but I am pretty sure his HT is traditional (without using modern equipment) and without steel preparation and additional treatment that many Western makers do. He still manages to make decent knives and has quite a following. Cudos to him. 

M


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## mr drinky (Jun 19, 2011)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> My guess, many of these knives are over-hardened (not drawn to RC where they are more stable) and brittle at the edge, so a micro bevel or a less acute angle is required.
> 
> M



Before I used the knife, I examined it under magnification and there was a micro-bevel near the heal and towards the tip, but there was no micro-bevel in the belly. Also, the chip occurred where the laminate steel came all the way down to the edge (on one side), so I am wondering if the core steel was thinner in that area.

Sorry for the bad photo, but my good camera is my napping daughter's room. 

k.


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## rockbox (Jun 19, 2011)

That ain't nothing. That's just a micro-chip. That's 10 minute on a Beston at most, and if you are MC, 5 minutes on a King 1K.

[video=youtube;IiYT3xPNkoE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiYT3xPNkoE[/video]

I thought you were talking more like this.


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## mr drinky (Jun 19, 2011)

Yeah, it's not that big. Like I said, the worst thing was that it kept snagging the wiping cloth. I'm just going to sharpen it like it wasn't there and let it come out on its own. I took a sushi course last weekend and you should have seen the chip on the instructor's suisin. He said he has been working it out for a couple years. 

k.


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

Drinky, strop it on a Finishing type of stone to lose the grabbiness of the chip. Should be all good after that.


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

Rockbox, you'd better just send that to me and I'll make sure nobody gets hurt!


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## rockbox (Jun 19, 2011)

That ain't mine. I haven't had a chip in over 3 years. I've noticed that if you sharpen your knife before you use it, chipping becomes a non issue. Sometimes I wish I had more chips because I have an addiction to power tools. When I was at Devins, I was thinking to myself, how would I get a power hammer and surface grinder into my 2 car garage and not piss off the HOA.


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

Say they're for your service dog?


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## jason (Jun 19, 2011)

Lefty said:


> I think it's safe to say he is an unconventional Traditional Japanese smith.
> I would think the edge and anywhere that is thinner on a knife would be hardened more than a thicker portion, based on heat transfer, so yeah, that makes sense.


 
Murray heat treats before grinding, the thickness of the steel is the same. A customer examined the hardness on his neck knife and reported back that the finds from two areas on his knife were 63.6 and 63.3.

Murray heat treats in water.


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks for the info. 
I figured he'd grind to 60% (or so) and HT, then finish grind. He must blow through belts!
It is a good way to keep warpage down (right Pierre and Butch?) and keep your hardness consistent.


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## SpikeC (Jun 19, 2011)

Lefty said:


> Say they're for your service dog?


:happy2:


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## jason (Jun 19, 2011)

Lefty said:


> Thanks for the info.
> I figured he'd grind to 60% (or so) and HT, then finish grind. He must blow through belts!
> It is a good way to keep warpage down (right Pierre and Butch?) and keep your hardness consistent.



It's a rare occasion for Murray to use a new belt, actually. Being able to use the waterwheel and grind the edge without overheating the steel is what allows him to heat treat this way. 

There are exceptions, of course. I think there is a large Damascus deba that (I can't wait for Murray to finish this! It will be one of the first Carter deba's I've seen available to the public in forever) had to have some of the profile ground before heat treat because of the thickness.


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

Jason, are you actually Murray Carter?


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

Spike!


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## jason (Jun 19, 2011)

Lefty said:


> Jason, are you actually Murray Carter?


 
No, I just work for him.
(and I'm not answering on behave of him)


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jun 19, 2011)

jason said:


> No, I just work for him.
> (and I'm not answering on behave of him)



Jason,

Did you take Tim's place?

Rick


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## jason (Jun 19, 2011)

Yes.


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

Are you the guy who hasn't responded to my emails? Haha


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jun 19, 2011)

jason said:


> Yes.


 
Jason,

Sorry, forgot my manners. Welcome to the forum! Hope you'll enjoy it here. 

Rick


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## jason (Jun 19, 2011)

Lefty said:


> Are you the guy who hasn't responded to my emails? Haha



That would be me. Send me a pm, or an email, I'd be happy to help in anyway. 
We generally try and answer any email we receive as soon as possible (within a day) but sometimes they fall through the cracks.
Sorry if we didn't respond to you! 

[email protected]


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## Mattias504 (Jun 19, 2011)

Hey Jason,
Welcome! Nice to have a direct line to MC. Good to have you here!!


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks! Oh yeah, welcome and all that stuff too. :thumbsup:


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## jason (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks for the welcome, guys. I'd be happy to help in anyway.
I've been lurking on here for a while now and using the feedback about the knives everyone receives in hopes to better serve everyone. 
It's nice to get unadulterated feedback, and I'm hoping that outing myself won't change anything.


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

It will help. I appreciate the complete honesty, and I'm sure we all do!


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## Eamon Burke (Jun 19, 2011)

Its good to see you, Jason!

Tell MC to start a passaround.


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## jason (Jun 19, 2011)

johndoughy said:


> Its good to see you, Jason!
> 
> Tell MC to start a passaround.



Interesting idea, what knife would be most appropriate for a passaround? 
Probably something along the lines of a +6sun wabocho?


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## Lefty (Jun 19, 2011)

I'm in! Make it the slim wabocho, though.


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## jason (Jun 19, 2011)

It's a bummer, a slim wa just went out during the sale, I think. 
I'll have to see what Murray thinks, but I like the idea. If it turns into something substantial I'll create a thread for it in the few days.


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## SpikeC (Jun 19, 2011)

OOH OOH!! Me too!! I live just across the west hills from him!


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## Mattias504 (Jun 19, 2011)

If anything, these forums are nothing but honest! You're sure to get honest feedback from this crowd.


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## EdipisReks (Jun 19, 2011)

EdipisReks want MC passaround!!1!


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## Eamon Burke (Jun 19, 2011)

Funayuki or wabocho, I say.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Jun 19, 2011)

jason said:


> Murray heat treats before grinding, the thickness of the steel is the same. A customer examined the hardness on his neck knife and reported back that the finds from two areas on his knife were 63.6 and 63.3.
> 
> Murray heat treats in water.


 
Just curios how the customer came up with such a precise reading. Can you elaborate?

M


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## Rottman (Jun 19, 2011)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Just curios how the customer came up with such a precise reading. Can you elaborate?
> 
> M


 
Sounds like a lab testing with professional machinery, no?


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## jason (Jun 19, 2011)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Just curios how the customer came up with such a precise reading. Can you elaborate?
> 
> M


 
He had it tested at a laboratory he used to work for. I don't know what his specific job was, but in talking with him, I guess he was an inspector for an agency in California where they had this equipment.
I really can't say how he came up with such a precise reading.


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## UglyJoe (Jun 20, 2011)

Jason, you said he does his grinding after heat treat, and I know he does, but he doesn't grind from bar stock either though. Doesn't he forge most of the bevels in during the forging process, and ergo still have thinner metal near the edge at heat treat than say after the knives have been sharpened back a mm or so?


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## Tristan (Jun 20, 2011)

Oh, this forum has a direct line to MC! Ah, we're really moving along! Welcome to the forum Jason. I got an email from you a while back... still patiently waiting. 

I think everyone here generally speaks their mind... Pretty easy to read back what most people think about the knives. I'm just glad more people got around to discussing MCs knives again recently. Was a bit quiet on that front for a while. I like having the noise just before the package arrives... kind of builds up the tension in a good way when people discuss a maker whom you know has something coming up for you.


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## jason (Jun 20, 2011)

UglyJoe said:


> Jason, you said he does his grinding after heat treat, and I know he does, but he doesn't grind from bar stock either though. Doesn't he forge most of the bevels in during the forging process, and ergo still have thinner metal near the edge at heat treat than say after the knives have been sharpened back a mm or so?


 
I'm not sure how he forges his kata-ha bevels, but he doesn't forge his the bevels on his knives (sfgz, high grade, KU, or IP). Or rather, the knives that I've seen go from heat treat to grinding have a consistent thickness spine to edge by my eye.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Jun 20, 2011)

jason said:


> He had it tested at a laboratory he used to work for. I don't know what his specific job was, but in talking with him, I guess he was an inspector for an agency in California where they had this equipment.
> I really can't say how he came up with such a precise reading.


 
It would be very difficult, even in a laboratory setting, to get an accurate hardness reading on a finished knife. Angle of the exposed core, thinness of the core, cladding are likely to throw off reading. Plus, this would require to make indentations into the core steel in both Rockwell and Vickers test (normally 5 readings that then are averaged out). Hard for me to imagine anybody doing it to their priced knvies. 

Murray would be better off backing up his hardness claim with scratching soda lime glass (bottles) with his knives. If it scratches, it's over 63RC. Not particularly glamorous, but works. 

Rockwell test is a standard test in industry. Normally hardness is tested on an uniform thickness and uniformly hardened material. Can't be done easily on clad knives, as cladding is softer than the core and it would result in a not-accurate reading (even in mono steel one has to remove a thin layer of metal that is carburized, as it will affect reading). Measuring hardness on a honyaki, on the other hand would be fine, as long as a blank is of uniform thickness in the tested area. 

M


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## JohnnyChance (Jun 20, 2011)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Murray would be better off backing up his hardness claim with scratching soda lime glass (bottles) with his knives. If it scratch, it's over 63RC. Not particularly glamorous, but works.



No, not glamorous or scientific, but it kinda fits Murray's whole deal. Rustic craftsman who does things the traditional way. No rockwell or vickers tests back in the day, but scratching glass seems fitting.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Jun 20, 2011)

Nesmuk does it too. They are also into the rustic stuff.

M


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## jason (Jun 20, 2011)

Maybe, anyway, here is the email were received:



> Sorry Jason for never getting back to you, yes I had the Rockwell tested and it came out at 63.3 - 63.6 checked two places what I found really interesting was how symmetrical the center core wAs I had the back spine polished so we could see the the difference. Under a low power microscope it appeared the variation from side to side was only .006 which in my book is fantastic for not being machine manufactured.



Plus, it's just a number to Murray, probably. He simply cares if it's at it's peak metallurgical performance. But I have several of his knives, if someone wants me to scratch mine with something, I'd be perfectly happy to.:thumbsup2:


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## Eamon Burke (Jun 20, 2011)

Soda Lime Glass should be scratched by a steel blade over 63 or so, it's a 6 on the mohs scale, and a steel file is 6.5, so if it passes the file test, it'll pass that glass test.

Does Murray do the file test?


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## jason (Jun 20, 2011)

No, Murray tests by shaving filings from the metal table (platen?) on his band saw. Where can I get Soda Lime Glass? Would someone be willing to send me some? I'll send it back, of course, but I don't know where to acquire this.


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## Eamon Burke (Jun 20, 2011)

He shaves his bandsaw table up?! That's crazy. Murray is always one step ahead of us on MacGyvering knives.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Jun 20, 2011)

Interesting. 

So, my next question is why does Murray harden his knives to 63+ RC so they are brittle? Why not drop a point or two, and get a more stable edge? For yanagi, I understand why you can leave at that hardness, but for a gyuto? Why? White steel is not know for it's edge stability due to composition. 

M


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## Rottman (Jun 20, 2011)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> It would be very difficult, even in a laboratory setting, to get an accurate hardness reading on a finished knife.


 
So how about testing hardness with ultrasound?


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## Marko Tsourkan (Jun 20, 2011)

Rottman said:


> So how about testing hardness with ultrasound?


 
Do you have more info on it? This is in the realm of high-tech for me. I am still in mechanical age. What's next, hand-held lasers to cut food? 

M


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## Rottman (Jun 20, 2011)

No in-depth info here. The guy who organized the testing of my Aritsugu A-type a while back said the laboratory could also test the hardness with ultrasound (it is a non destructive testing method) and that testing a blade with no real flats wouldn't be a problem.


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## jason (Jun 20, 2011)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So, my next question is why does Murray harden his knives to 63+ RC so they are brittle? Why not drop a point or two, and get a more stable edge? For yanagi, I understand why you can leave at that hardness, but for a gyuto? Why? White steel is not know for it's edge stability due to composition.
> 
> M



Do you feel his knives are brittle? 

I don't believe Murray over hardens the steel at all. I think that with all of the experience that Murray has with these particular steels that he knows the limitations of each one. Since he does hand forge and hand heat treat of course there is some level of inconsistency, but that's why he tests the knives, and being able to hand sharpen each knife before it makes it's way to the customer allows him to weed out the knives that don't meet his standards.


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## Lefty (Jun 20, 2011)

I haven't found my Carter brittle, in the least. As I mentioned earlier, I've used it very hard, for everything from garlic, to bone in chicken. I got a tiny chip, but nothing I would ever complain about.


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## Mattias504 (Jun 20, 2011)

Brittle is not something I would describe any of my Carters. Even the "superlite" wabocho I have. This thing is 1.6mm thin at the base of the spine and it has never chipped. Twisting out avocado pits(and sometimes you really have to work them), mashing garlic, all the regular heavy stuff. 

Its very safe to say that Murray knows exactly whats up.


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## rockbox (Jun 20, 2011)

As much as I dog Carter for his fit and finish sometimes, his knives perform like a champ. Some of the things I've seen his neck knives go through have been amazing especially if they are in deed this hard.


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## Mattias504 (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree. I have chopped up and destroyed some crazy stuff with my necker. Its like a little tank.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Jun 20, 2011)

I listen.


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## bieniek (Jun 21, 2011)

Even more bad that he dont want to produce Deba for me! 
Im really into great blade with no visible attributes of the bling, so after passing on the Shig Deba from Marko I asked Murray about the custom 220 deba. Jason answered that debas arent available he thought due lack of time. What a shame! Please mention that to Murray


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## TB_London (Jun 21, 2011)

Sure I've seen a YouTube video with MC talking about chipping and using his clipper lighter to test flex and failure(chipping). He also talked about how the area around the chip can be useful in determing if the chip was due to the HT. On my phone at work now but will try and dig out link later.
I have 4 carters now and they are frequently my go to knives, am trying to resist getting a full size gyuto as well, put the CKTG in my basket before I talked myself out of it....


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## TB_London (Jun 21, 2011)

Not sure if link works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU3ALY8OmZk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Salty dog (Jun 21, 2011)

A friend of mine is the CFO of a large forging company. The have all kinds of crazy stuff for exmining steel. The next time he travels to the forge I'm invited to bring some knives for analysis. Should be interesting.

One of the things they forge are breaches for M16s.


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