# Robert Herder K5 & K6 mini-review



## Jovidah (Jan 12, 2021)

Figured I'd write my impressions after using these for a while. Robert Herder isn't mentioned a whole lot here but I figured I'd write down a few things, even if only so that people can stumble upon it while googling. Not a super elaborate review, but just what stood out to me. I just ripped some photos from the RH website so you know what knife I'm talking about... I don't think my mediocre photography skills with my cheap phone camera would add much, but feel free to ask if you're curious about anything.

*Main points regarding the K5




*
-As expected from Robert Herder, knife comes sharp and proper thin behind the edge. Basically German laser.
-Although they advertised with convex-ish grind I cannot say I particularly noticed much of this in practise. It's still a sticky laser. Could be that this is due to a relatively high level of polish on the blade.
-Spine isn't absurdly thin though so it doesn't feel flimsy. No flex.
-Other than the stickage, it does cut awesome... Think Robert Herder paring knife performance in a larger package.
-It's advertised as a 182 mm. That's blade length, not edge length... although the difference is small due to how close to the heel the edge starts.
-About 155 gram.
-Balance is at the bolster... if it had one. It's basically where the handle starts.
-Profile is sort of an inbetween between a 180 gyuto and a santoku. Rather personal whether that's your cup of tea of nor. My main gripe with it is that it's simply on the short side. If you want larger, the K Chef is an option (it's 225), but it's also a lot more expensive.
-I have the carbon version which is rated at 61,5 rockwell. I've heard mention that it's supposedly 1.2519 - which is supposed to be similarish to blue steel - but don't take that statement as gospel; I'm not 100% sure on it. In practise I've had no issues with chipping, it sharpens pretty easily, holds an edge pretty well, but I haven't exactly done a scientific study or comparison on it. What stood out is that it isn't particularly reactive. The cheapo C75 Herders can discolor onions a bit at the start. Had no such issues with these... They were remarkable unreactive. Never any smells, no discoloration, and it got to the point where it felt like they were kinda slow to take a patina.
-It's a monosteel.
-Good for anything vegetable that isn't too large... not so good for bigger vegetables and large pieces of meat due to lack of length (duh). Fun blade to use but wouldn't want it as my only blade; just becomes clumsy due to lack of length.

Now for the bad stuff:
-Spine and choil are not rounded. Normally I don't mind - I'm a home user so I rarely hold a knife for hours on and, but these were more unpleasant than usual.
-The is no bolster at all. This also means that there isn't really anything protecting the scales of the knife when you're washing it. Since the handle is so close to the heel of the knife this means it's almost impossible to prevent contact with water and soap while cleaning the knife. In my case this has already resulted in the little handle protrusion starting to come away from the handle a little bit. And this is only after a few months of usage. As a result I now basically baby the handle to avoid this inevitable deterioration of hte knife. Note that this happened _after_ I treated the handles by soaking them in a jar of mineral oil for at least a full day. I think it's just a design flaw; the smallish protrusion is just asking for trouble. I checked before purchase to make sure I got good handles and they were perfect when I bought them.

*General verdict on the K5*
-For this reason I'd be extremely reluctant to recommend this knife to anyone. The price is also a lot higher these days (around 150 euros, though I got it for half on a sale), and at that price you don't want handles that start to come apart after a few months even though you babied them. There is an option for a POM handle, but only on the stainless model. Rehandling it might be an option (shouldn't be too difficult, it is a full tang knife), but it's silly if you almost have to calculate that in when buying. WIth the wood handles I would really not recommend them for a professional environment.
It's a shame, because otherwise the handle is well done and feels nice and polished.

*Main points regarding the K6



*
-Almost everything above applies... same issue with the handles. Well, mine hasn't started to come apart yet, but I expect it will eventually; it has the exact same design.
-Same level of fit & finish... nice polished handle that looks nice (but will probably not last), but again lack of rounded spine. Since there's no choil (due to the profile of the knife) and you use and hold this knife differently I found it less annoying on this knife.
-Bolsterless design with lack of any neck to the knife is again a design flaw... it's just asking for trouble in the long run from both a hygienic and handle-durability perspective.
-Again, while really thin at the edge, spine isn't super thin. Only a tiny negligible amount of flex. It's stiffer than you'd expect from the weight, profile and name ('ham & filetting knife').
-Only 100 gram. SUPER nimble.
-Balances ~0.5cm in front of the handle.
-I have the carbon version. Same experience; I basically had to leave this knife dirty for it to start getting a decent patina. Monosteel again.
-The advertised 230mm length is applicable to both edge and blade due to the profile / desing.
-The profile is really unique... only 2 cm high along the entire length... no real heel to the knife. It's basically the lovechild of a fillet knife and a sujihiki... without the flex.
-Due to the lack of heel it's not that great as a slicer for finished meats. It'll work, but since you have no knuckle clearance something taller is more practical. Still works if you pull up at the end or place your product close enough to the cutting board edge that your handle comes off the board.
-What this thing REALLY shines at though is raw meat trimming, cleaning, etc. Because it's so light and low it's like using a 230 petty. The length doesn't really get in the way as much as I expected to, probably since it's so light. But it makes it very comfortable to trim larger pieces of silverskin in 1 go, is still large enough to slice well, while still being as nimble as a smaller petty.
It's not perfect - I wished the tip was a bit thinner to poke it in easier while trimming silverskin, but other than that it still works so incredibly nice.
-Easy as pie to sharpen too with this flattish profile and lack of tip.

*General verdict on the K6*
-On this one a very... mixed impression. The handle makes me reluctant to recommend it, while at the same time the unique profile made me fall in love with it straight away. If you're a vegetarian, there is no point buying this. If you look for something to cut roasts or whatever post cooking, again, I'd say get a suji. But if you find yourself processing bigger chunks of boneless meat that need trimming and cleaning up at least every now and then it's worthy of consideration, even with the handle issues. I found it uniquely useful in that role.
It would probably do filleting fish reasonably well too but I haven't really tried; I prefer to leave the skin on.


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## damiano (Jan 12, 2021)

Thanks for the interesting review! Do you have any experience with Herder’s 1922 line?

By the way, for anyone interested, amazon.de sells a lot of Herders at generally good prices.


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## Jovidah (Jan 12, 2021)

Nope I haven't. I came close to pulling the trigger on that one a few years ago when it was a lot cheaper, but I refrained from doing it due to the full bolster. The different design with a proper bolster would most likely fix the handle issues I talk about above, and also be a lot more comfortable (it's mostly the choil that bothers me).... But you have to deal with the full bolster. Since I already knew I hate those, both when cutting and sharpening I took a pass.

But those who can deal with the full bolster are generally very positive about it. @Benuser might have more to share. 
If Herder made a 1922 with only a halfbolster à la Wüsthof Ikon that would be really awesome. As I said, it's really the issues with the handles that are the dealbreaker for me. Spines and choil are easy to round if they bother you. Food release personally didn't bother me.


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## Benuser (Jan 12, 2021)

Wahnamhong said:


> Thanks for the interesting review! Do you have any experience with Herder’s 1922 line?
> 
> By the way, for anyone interested, amazon.de sells a lot of Herders at generally good prices.






The Herder 1922 chef's, 23cm, 209g, C75W steel @60Rc, drop-forged, thin fingerguard, balance point at pinch grip.




Herder 1922 Tranchelard, 23cm, 139g, balance point at fingerguard. 
Both have the strong distal taper that was common in those days. If someone is familiar with the crazy thin tips of vintage Sabs: the Tranchelard has the same, while the chef's has a relative (!) thickening at the tip, which makes it less fragile.


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## Benuser (Jan 12, 2021)

About the fingerguard: it comes out of the box a few millimetres above the edge. It's formed by two arcs meeting at the lowest point. Reducing it — as a home user will have to do once in a few years — will take a few strokes with a nailfile. The steel is all but abrasion resistant. Make sure not to touch the edge. Protect it with a piece of cork. 
I would keep the fingerguard above the edge, although I know some sharpeners want it to be in line with it. That solution is a bit risky as it easily allows a hole to appear at the edge. As always, don't ask how I know.


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 29, 2021)

Thanks for review. My early years in Hotel kitchens Forschners were the most used knives. All day cutting could be sharpened over & over. They had no bolsters Rosewood handles. Using them putting out large banquet parties even though stainless steel, would wash with warm water & soap dry completely at end of shift. Always took care of my knives
a must when switched to Japanese carbons.


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## Jovidah (Oct 10, 2021)

After using both for a longer time a few things that stand out (it helps that I have more comparison material). Might largely be a repeat but maybe there's something worthwhile here. Will try to start writing my thoughts on all my other acquisitions in the last year as well soon(tm).

-The K5 is still my 'stickiest' knife, even when comparing to true lasers like the Takamura, or laserish stuff like the Yoshikane. My only conclusion is that it's because of the level of polish. Even when taking a some patina it didn't get a whole lot better. I may eventually try roughing it up just to see what it does to the sticktion but it's not exactly high on my priorities list.

-They still stand out as taking a patina very slowly, but also being strikingly non-reactive for a full carbon.

-Compared to the usual sanmai construction, I do really enjoy the 'direct' cutting feedback the K5 gives; it's a trait shares with my other monosteel knives. 

-Even compared to the more well known Japanese lasers it keeps up very well in how smooth it cuts through dense product like carrots, and is still one of my thinnest-behind-the-edge knives out of the box - without any hint of fragility.

-The handles remain a bit of a weakspot as described. It didn't really progress much but it didn't exactly get better either.

-The K6 loses out to a Ginga for trimming / silverskinning purposes due to the tip being too thick on the K6, and loses to a true suji for a lot of carving / slicing work since it lacks blade height.

-However it still comes out every now and then because of its unique combination of length, stiffness and lack of blade height. For example when doing rougher trim of larger multikilo hunks of meat, where you actually have to trim significantly large chunks instead of needing finesse. 

-The steel (it's the same on both) stands out as being a great mix between edge retention and durability. Holds an edge really well without having the slightest sense of of fragility, and it has a 'solid' bombproof feel on the board even though both are really thin behind the edge.

If I were to tell Robert Herder what to improve, it would be that heel on the handle (so the handles are more bombproof), change the finish of the blades a bit to make them less sticky, and give the spine and choil a bit of a polish. That's really what's holding back especially the K5 from pushing out significantly more expensive Japanese knives. The cutting perforamance itself is certainly there though and it runs circles around any of the other mass-market European stuff.


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## Jovidah (Oct 28, 2021)

Actually thought I'd mention this since I noticed I keep comparing to this in my Takamura review (probably because they're both carrot killers, and two of my shorter knives).
I'm giving this knife kind of a hard time... yes, the handle has major issues, yes the blade is the stickiest I have, and yes the spine and choil are too sharp out of the box.
Yet I still kinda like it, and find myself considering buying the K Chef. A lot of is probably down to my monosteel-prefernece. This knife has an interesting combination of really thin behind the edge wedging-isn't-in-my-dictionary performance, without any of the delicacy or fragility. The sharper monosteel feedback just feels pleasantly reassuring, and it's one of those knives that I just 'pick up and go' and has a certain non-fussyness to it. Blade very non reactive and 'it just works'.


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## demcav (Dec 26, 2021)

I ordered the K5 carbon/plum 2 days ago based on my positive experience with the carbon blades on the K4 and parer that I've had for about a year. I totally relate to your experience using this steel regarding feel and patina. I almost chose the K Chef instead, but since I'm awaiting the arrival of a 225mm Kamon mass drop knife (nearly the same length blade) I decided on the K5 for now.

Considering holiday shipping it will probably take a week to arrive. Thank you for posting your review(s) here.


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## Jovidah (May 29, 2022)

I was able to get the K-chef at a good price, so I couldn't resist. It's actually quite a bit heftier than the K5 (217 gr vs 156); it's made of slightly thicker stock. Other than that it's very comparable; stiff, yet thin behind the edge all across.... not a ton of taper in the spine, same sharp edges on spine / choil and same handle issues. 
Cuts very well though and has the same forgiving spicy carbon monosteel that just inspires confidence while cutting. It's a shame they're a bit overpriced at full price; if they were 150 euros retail it'd be the knife I'd recommend to all the normies around me. If they polished the spine and choil, and didn't have that silly heel to the handle they'd be worth the asking price IMO.

The best analogue I can give of the K Chef is that it's a lot like a monosteel version of my Y Tanaka. Similarish grind / taper situation, though the K chef is a hair thinner behind the edge.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 29, 2022)

Have that blade, at work used Japanese mono steel carbons. After retired most Japanese stainless clad carbons. Never considered German knives hated the full bolster finger guards. Since used bolsterless 
Forschners many years doesn't bother me on K chef. I treated the handle to make it tougher & easy to clean. 

Never imagined my home mag blocks would have French & German mono steel carbons on it they are good cutting knives.


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## demcav (May 29, 2022)

Keith Sinclair said:


> I treated the handle to make it tougher & easy to clean.


Would you mind sharing what you did to make the handle of your K chef "tougher"? I have a couple of the carbon R. Herder knives with plum handles, which is why I ask.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 29, 2022)

Sure it's a little while to do it time wise because you have to let coats dry. 

50/50 mix pure tung oil & clear bullseye shellac. I put mix in small plastic squeeze bottle. Must shake to mix as oil & shellac separate. Use paper towel to apply on handle wipe off extra just a thin even coat.
Let dry completely 0000 extra fine steel wool 
between coats. Usually do 3 coats after last steel wool & buff to finish. 

Drying time varies quite a bit depending on weather. Trade winds blowing two coats one day. Rain more than one day. Use this to coat 
Knife handles & saya's. This was Stefan Keller's finishing technique. 






Olive wood on K- Sabatier





My two Herders


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## Keith Sinclair (May 29, 2022)

This K-Sabatier was a good buy 10" around 100.00. I know not up to KKF standards soft carbon, heavy. But I love it can repeat very sharp edges on stone. My favorite beater knife. We start day with vegetable protein smoothies. Local frozen fruit, bag frozen black & blue berries. Protein powder, flax meal, chia seeds, Hawaiian spirulina, almond 
milk. 








My first Herder saw Benuser's, hard to find. 
Didn't know if would work as kitchen knife but use it quite a bit. Very sharp tip.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 29, 2022)

Herder is 1910 don't know if you can get them anymore.


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## demcav (May 29, 2022)

Keith Sinclair, thank you for sharing your (and Stefan's) handle finishing.  The results look smooth and durable.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 29, 2022)

My pleasure Stefan & Fish are no longer with us both handle masters.


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## Benuser (May 29, 2022)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Herder is 1910 don't know if you can get them anymore.











Pike's sabre


Windmühlenmesser-Manufactur - Gute Messer sind von Hand gemacht



www.windmuehlenmesser.de




The German name is Hechtsäbels.
Where you may find it something happened to the price.





Hechtsäbels


Die Windmühlenmesser Vielzweckmesser Hechtsäbel oder auch Hechtsäbels genannt von Windmühle Robert Herder aus Solingen.



www.messer-mit-tradition.de


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## Keith Sinclair (May 30, 2022)

The second site you posted is where I got mine. I had contacted Herder they gave me 
Hechtsabels looking for 1910 don't recall it being called Pikes Sabre at the time. It is similar to 1800's carving knives. The shape and bevel on one side spine on drop to tip. 

Have used it for meats & fish. As well as slicing tomatoes other small vegetable jobs. Perfect size for Costco rotisserie chicken. 
Price was little cheaper when I got it. But everything costs more these days. Inflation in US affects Hawaii too. 

Shipping worldwide is done in container ships. They have gotten huge in size. One of the giants ran into the bank of suez canal. 
It was a windy day these things have containers stacked so high top heavy & hit by high winds hard to control. That one canal
backed up shipping big time. Just one of many choke points for maritime shipping.


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## Benuser (May 30, 2022)

About the prices: Herder isn't able to satisfy the demand, production of models that involve more handwork is postponed. Retailers that do have some stock ask a fat premium.


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## blokey (May 30, 2022)

Bernal seems to restocked some, but the price is quiet high.








Windmühlenmesser 'K5' 6.75" Santoku Carbon Plum


The Windmühlenmesser 'K' series knives are inspired by classic Japanese double bevel designs. They have thin geometry and are easy to sharpen, making them a sho




bernalcutlery.com


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## Keith Sinclair (May 30, 2022)

When was looking for K-Chef Old Faithful shop in Canada was cheaper than bernal cutlery. Just checked their prices have gone up too.


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## KingShapton (Jun 5, 2022)

Keith Sinclair said:


> My first Herder saw Benuser's, hard to find.
> Didn't know if would work as kitchen knife but use it quite a bit. Very sharp tip.


This knife keeps tempting me...


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 5, 2022)

In your neck of the woods.


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## GeneParmesan (Nov 29, 2022)

In case you are wondering how different knives of the series compare:
Their thin profile is more or less the same.
So if you are interested you should simply get one that you like from the overall design.




To give you some orientation on how the knives compare here are the knives that I own.

Left to right:
K Chef
K6
K5
Santoku Knife
Yatagan Knife
Hechtsäbel
K3
K2
SomeVegetableKnife

Odly enough I realy like the K6. It feels like a larger version of the Yatagan knife.


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## Jovidah (Nov 29, 2022)

The K6 is the one I'm most conflicted about. In general I like the profile... but the fat tip holds it back, and the general balance just feels off in some way, especially when using it as a slicer on denser stuff like cured meats. 
Still quite content about my K5 and K6 though the handle & stickyness issues of course persist. But that stiff and reassuring monosteel 'feel' and qualities of the steel (low reactivity, great edge retention) makes up for it.

Just such a damn shame they've gone up so much in price over the years. If a K Chef was 150 euros, or a K5 was 100, I'd recommend them to anyone in a heartbeat. But they're currently priced in a very different playing field.
I'm still kicking myself for not completing the whole set at bargain prices when I had the chance... stuff like K1 / K1M cost half as much a few years ago as it does now, and I actually skipped on the opportunity to buy K2/K3/K4 stuff at wholesale prices when I bought my K5 & K6.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 29, 2022)

When you think about it's the custom end of German knife making. The time it takes. to finish them limited market.


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## GeneParmesan (Nov 30, 2022)

@Jovidah 
I feel you. The prices are rising constantly for these knives.
Even a year ago you could get them significantly cheaper.
More and more we are coming to a point where you'd have to think twice if they are realy worth their money. Especially considering the situation that in germany there are knive makers that will thin out your knife for 40 to 50 Euro, giving you a knife with a very similar geometry.

On the other hand it looks like Windmühlenmesser seem to have trouble fullfilling the demand.
For the middle of the year there was an anounched revamp of their 1922 Chefs Knives. Still there are no shops that have these knives in stock.


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## Jovidah (Nov 30, 2022)

Keith Sinclair said:


> When you think about it's the custom end of German knife making. The time it takes. to finish them limited market.


Not entirely. The Herder's, while being largely hand-made, are still produced in serial production in a way that gives massive economies of scale.
The blades themselves are simply stamped and heat-treated in a very similar manner to what you see in larger factories, and it's only the grind that really sets it apart. The handles are all very basic and simple. Sure, there's more manual labor than in a big CNC factory like Wüsthof has, but it's a far cry from one-off custom production.


GeneParmesan said:


> @Jovidah
> I feel you. The prices are rising constantly for these knives.
> Even a year ago you could get them significantly cheaper.
> More and more we are coming to a point where you'd have to think twice if they are realy worth their money. Especially considering the situation that in germany there are knive makers that will thin out your knife for 40 to 50 Euro, giving you a knife with a very similar geometry.
> ...


The 1922 is a bit of a special case. Supposedly they had one employee who was responsible for making them and he got into an accident...hence supply dried up. In general their problem is similar to that of Japan; demand for 'handmade' and good knives has gone up, but it's not trivial to increase production. You can't just pull trained workers with 5 years of experience out of your bootyhole overnight.


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