# Horizontal wheel grinders



## AGC8 (Feb 9, 2020)

I noticed a few JP bladesmiths using a horizontally positioned "grinding wheel sharpener". Which seems to make more sense than using the usual vertically oriented Machines (e.g. Tomek T4).

I know Makita had a 9820-2 ($800 CDN on Amazon.ca)...another company..the Wood Worker ($300) is the name? Had one for chisels but only had angle settings down to 20-degrees...though, if keeping the factory angle isn't important...

Love to get some brand/model recommendations. Preferably from people who've used or are still using this kind of sharpening machine.

Thanks.


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## stringer (Feb 9, 2020)

It's been discussed several times over the years. Generally people think that the Tormek is too slow and not great for thinning. The horizontal options are used/have been used by JKI, JNS, Cleancut, and @osakajoe. They are expensive but they work. 
Most makers and knife sharpeners prefer belt sanders. They are cheaper, faster and more versatile since they are good for both thinning and edge work. Plus they require less maintenance (grinding stones have to be trued and conditioned frequently).



https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...er-eg-makita-pros-and-cons.29028/#post-442181

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/tormek-t7.24522/

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/water-grinding-wheel.19412/

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/horizontal-grinding-wheel-advice-needed.25632/


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## AGC8 (Feb 9, 2020)

stringer said:


> It's been discussed several times over the years. Generally people think that the Tormek is too slow and not great for thinning. The horizontal options are used/have been used by JKI, JNS, Cleancut, and @osakajoe. They are expensive but they work.
> Most makers and knife sharpeners prefer belt sanders. They are cheaper, faster and more versatile since they are good for both thinning and edge work. Plus they require less maintenance (grinding stones have to be trued and conditioned frequently).
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I did containea Ken Onion Work Sharp. But since claim it puts scratches on the side above the never m cutting bevel. Others say it's worked fine die them.

Opinions on the new Wusthof belt electric sharpener? Heard to find reviews.


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## stringer (Feb 9, 2020)

AGC8 said:


> Thanks for the info. I did containea Ken Onion Work Sharp. But since claim it puts scratches on the side above the never m cutting bevel. Others say it's worked fine die them.
> 
> Opinions on the new Wusthof belt electric sharpener? Heard to find reviews.



I'm talking more like a 1x30, 1x42, or 2x72. Those mini ones are probably fine for edge work but still not really much good for thinning. You can try other types of power sanders too. Like an orbital sander or a 4" floor sander clamped upside down. Or if you're really ballsy an angle grinder can speed things up a bit.


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## SeattleBen (Feb 9, 2020)

So many angle grinders run at 3k+ rpm unless you've got a large diameter wheel which is a whole new set of scary. Those are brass ones that people who use those have.


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## stringer (Feb 9, 2020)

SeattleBen said:


> So many angle grinders run at 3k+ rpm unless you've got a large diameter wheel which is a whole new set of scary. Those are brass ones that people who use those have.



I wouldn't recommend it. But @inferno does. It's definitely on my list of tools to learn to use. Primitive but powerful and capable of precision with practice.


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## Nikabrik (Feb 9, 2020)

There are a few cheaper options sold in Japan, but not here - you could get one shipped to North America for around $200. These options include:
Ryobi FG-18 or FG-205
Toshiba CS-180b
Shinko STD-180E (or D or C) - comes with a King 1k wheel

However, the cheapest option is to do a saved search on your local classifieds - a Makita 9820-2 just popped up here for $85! Try "wet sharpener -pencil"

I went with a vertical wheel, however, as I wanted to be able to do S-grinds and more focused thinning.


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## DSChief (Feb 9, 2020)

Naniwa makes a couple of commercial grade horizontal wheels. The NS2-300S features larger stones & lower rpm's
with shipping & customs it will be BIG BUCKS. But we can justify any new toy right !!
https://www.naniwa-abrasive.com/product/sharpening_stone/index3#180S

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf1H_KqyYkc&feature=youtu.be


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## AGC8 (Feb 9, 2020)

DSChief said:


> Naniwa makes a couple of commercial grade horizontal wheels. The NS2-300S features larger stones & lower rpm's
> with shipping & customs it will be BIG BUCKS. But we can justify any new toy right !!
> https://www.naniwa-abrasive.com/product/sharpening_stone/index3#180S
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf1H_KqyYkc&feature=youtu.be


This is the machine I saw. M was looking for. Any idea how much this beauty runs?

Orbital sander clamped hmmm...


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## SeattleBen (Feb 9, 2020)

I use them at work, electrician, and don't doubt that they're useful. Just the speed and danger involved gives me pause. Inferno has big bad brass ones.


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## AGC8 (Feb 9, 2020)

SeattleBen said:


> I use them at work, electrician, and don't doubt that they're useful. Just the speed and danger involved gives me pause. Inferno has big bad brass ones.


Guys using grinders SHIRK MY SHOULD be using the m eye protection.

I heard about someone using a vertical wheel grinder... Suddenly a piece of the knife fire of and used m grazes his cheek lucky it didn't fly into his eye as it became a projectile.


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## inferno (Feb 10, 2020)

AGC8 said:


> I noticed a few JP bladesmiths using a horizontally positioned "grinding wheel sharpener". Which seems to make more sense than using the usual vertically oriented Machines (e.g. Tomek T4).
> 
> I know Makita had a 9820-2 ($800 CDN on Amazon.ca)...another company..the Wood Worker ($300) is the name? Had one for chisels but only had angle settings down to 20-degrees...though, if keeping the factory angle isn't important...
> 
> ...



do you want one of these for sharpening or for serious redecoration?

because if its only for sharpening i'd say you'll be better off with a bunch of stones, or even sandpaper. 

and if doing serious material removal, then you'll be better off with some kind of grinder.

1-4inch belt grinder - can be very fast and unforgiving. but you can get whatever belts you want for it. and it has a flat platen.
it will also throw sparks and dust everywhere. you can ruin your blade in way less than 0,5 seconds.

mouse type sander in a vise - these seems promising. takes all papers pretty much and dont throw sparks. has built in suction system






orbital sander - these are quite effective, i have this one. the vacuum actually works. nowhere near as fast as a belt grinder though.





floor sanders - lots of belts for these, they last about 5 minutes or so. can be found cheap. quite compact. i have this one. much faster than the orbital sander.










angle grinder  - these are just as fast as industrial belt grinders. but now you dont have any flat platen, and they spin at 12k rpm. its very easy to make mistakes with these, and you can do irreversible damage to your knife in like 0,1seconds. and you can overheat it just as fast too. if you dont work with power tools all day long this is not for you. they also throw sparks everywhere. and they are loud.

all machines works about 10-1000 times faster than stones. and therefore you can ruin stuff just as much faster. i'd say you need to learn to walk before you can run.
and if you're only sharpening blades there is really no need for machines at all. I don't sharpen anything on machines.


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## tim37 (Feb 11, 2020)

As a knife maker I take a blade (always Stainless Steel) down to .010" flat grind at the edge on the grinder. After Heat Treat to Rc 63 for Nitro V or Rc 61 for M390 or S35VN, it never touches a power tool again. I use my Edge Pro to flat grind down to 0* edge then put a 5-10 degree bevel/side for kitchen knives and 10-12 degree bevel/side for M390 blades. I put a final edge at 1 degree/side to remove any wire edge or burr. I have ruined the heat treat by putting a blade on a machine after heat treat. I believe that is why so many knives can't be gotten sharp until they have been sharpened several times - the ruined heat treated metal has to be ground off by sharpening several times. Just my humble opinion.


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## vicv (Feb 12, 2020)

The type described in this thread are wet grinders so no worry of over tempering am edge


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## bobkoure (Feb 13, 2020)

AGC8 said:


> Thanks for the info. I did containea Ken Onion Work Sharp. But since claim it puts scratches on the side above the never m cutting bevel. Others say it's worked fine die them.


The issue with the KO (and Edgecraft/Chef'sChoice) is that pulling a knife through a guide can scratch the knife if there is _any_ abrasive at all on the guide. Some people put blue painter's tape on their knives before sharpening. Instead of that, I went with the KO plus WS's 'edge grinder attachment' which does not have guides at all (angle adjustment changes the angle of the section of belt (between two pulleys). There's a bit of a learning curve, as you need to keep the knife parallel to the bench-top. There in a platten on the edge side that you can put a knife on to get a sense of what parallel is. When I was learning, I found a magnetic leveling bubble stuck to the top of the blade helped me burn the motion into my muscle memory.
There's a platten on the other side, but that's for holding something at 90 degrees to the belt (useful for putting a square edge on the back of a survival knife so it'll dig into a fire starter)
Work Sharp is now selling the KO powerhead with the edge grinder attachment (and no KO attachment) as the 'Elite' for about $200.
I've set the pulleys to 'full convex edge' and find a 10 degree double bevel edge lasts a long time on hard steel (rockwell 63). Ditto soft-steel steak knives at 18-20 and Sabatier carbon steel at 15. Edges on all of these are sharp enough to shave hair on my forearm (wife's starting to tease me about my arms going bald, too). 
I'd recommend one if you don't have a full workshop. The only downside is that learning curve (I can do it - and I suck at stones) - and the belts make a bit of a mess which you might not want to have to deal with on a kitchen counter. WS also makes for-culinary sharpeners that have a housing to contain the mess, but they also have angle guides, so I'm avoiding those.
One other nice thing about a belt is that it's dead easy to round that top corner that digs into the side of my forefinger in a pinch grip.


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## mengwong (Nov 27, 2022)

If someone already had access to a pottery wheel… I wonder if the 180/1000 grinding wheels could be adapted somehow. Nice controllable speed, splash guards already in place. If the knife catches and flies toward you, there go the crown jewels.


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## MowgFace (Nov 28, 2022)

Like an actual pottery wheel?


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## mengwong (Nov 28, 2022)

Affirmative… pottery wheelheads come with holes, usually 10” apart, intended for mounting bats. Thought we might reuse that for grinding. The pottery world has extensive accessories.


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## MowgFace (Nov 28, 2022)

.


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## mengwong (Nov 28, 2022)

Indeed, one could imagine just throwing a regular stoneware plate/bowl, mounting it upside down after bisque fire, and that’s your grinding stone right there. “Oh you sharpen against the bottom of a coffee mug? Hold my beer…”






Mesh Size







ceramicartsnetwork.org


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## blokey (Nov 28, 2022)

They doesn't seems cheaper than the actual grinding wheel tho.


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## osakajoe (Nov 29, 2022)

stringer said:


> It's been discussed several times over the years. Generally people think that the Tormek is too slow and not great for thinning. The horizontal options are used/have been used by JKI, JNS, Cleancut, and @osakajoe. They are expensive but they work.
> Most makers and knife sharpeners prefer belt sanders. They are cheaper, faster and more versatile since they are good for both thinning and edge work. Plus they require less maintenance (grinding stones have to be trued and conditioned frequently)



I didn’t notice I was tagged here. So even though it’s two years late, here is my two cents. 

The horizontal wheels are mostly for finishing the final edge or Koba. Not really designed for grinding away material. Some of the hobby cheap small horizontal machines like the Naniwa come with changeable stones. You can get a #400 grit stone for that machine but again not made to do the rough stock removal, just fixing edges and thinking behind the edge with the rough stones. 

The horizontal stones we professionally use here are much bigger with a radius of 50-63cm, depending on the machine. The stones are quite heavy and are usually not made to be changed until they need replacing. But again these are only used to put the final Koba edge on the knife. 

I would agree that the paper grinders are faster than those of you are thinking of stock removal. But that’s only because most of those horizontal stones are between #800-3000 grit designed more for the final edge. Paper grinder grits go as low as #80-120 so can remove material faster but you need to be careful of heat. 

Now if discussing paper grinders and western makers in terms of production, they are much slower than the larger vertical water stones or “kaiten mizu-to” that have a radius around 85cm and weighing 150kgs. You can use a jig to grind much faster and the stone allows for much more variations on how you want to finish. This is one of the reasons many handmade Japanese knives are more affordable than western knife makers. I have not asked any western makers but maybe someone can answer this for me?

How many many of these can they grind, buff, polish, and finish in a month?
- Forged blanks. Heat treated. 
- Let’s say, gyuto 210 blades
- VG10 (hrc 60) or equivalent core 
- Clad in softer stainless, 

I know some western makers will do some stock removal before heat treatment but just state that if you know.


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