# Kippington workhorse honyaki pass around



## labor of love

Any interest in testing this workhorse honyaki made for me by Kippington?
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/34734-Commission-WIP?highlight=Kippington
Im going to be very selective about who I allow to use this knife...obviously...Ill explain and give more details later in the day.


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## Kippington

Aw sweet! :biggrin:

Have you got a pic of what it currently looks like?
I'm curious to see how the mirror polish is holding up to a patina.


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## labor of love

Kippington said:


> Aw sweet! :biggrin:
> 
> Have you got a pic of what it currently looks like?
> I'm curious to see how the mirror polish is holding up to a patina.



Its loaded up with patina at this point. I will try and remove much of it w BKF to take a decent pic. The mirror polish hung in there for a few weeks, but my daily workload eventually overwhelmed it lol. Do you still have a pic of the mirror polish somewhere? It definitely looked stunning ootb.


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## labor of love

The reason I want to do this pass around is because I would like to drum up support for Kippington. Hes our guy, who relatively recently acquired his hobbiest craftsman badge here at the forum. Hes full of innovative ideas about how to make knives better. As great as it is to chase after accomplished makers whose work resonates with you, I really the idea of supporting a guy like Kippington. This gyuto is great in all the areas that matter to me. He is a math wizard, and it shows in the extreme distal taper and grind. That being said, this is a workhorse. So it does have a beefy feel to it while maintaining a weight thats comfortable in hand (I wanna say somewhere around 205grams-210 grams).
I wanted this particular knife because I thought I would be cool to own a workhorse honyaki as it seems most honyaki blades are quite thin. So this blade feels special in that respect. But I should point out that hes not just making workhorse blades, Ill likely be getting something thinner from him soon. 
The steel used was W2, which I found equally enjoyable to sharpen as heiji carbon and mizuno honyaki, although it would be nice to get a second opinion (Anton?). It has all attributes that honyaki fans like IMO. Kippington just doesnt have an established reputation yet that other makers do. But Im confident he will once he gets more commissions and feedback. Anyway, if youre on a Hiromoto honyaki budget I would suggest you atleast consider Kippington first, customizing a honyaki is a pretty cool venture IMO. 
Anyway, enough shilling.
This is a very important knife to me so Im going to be selective about who uses it. Sorry, but thats just way its gotta be. I dont have any rules set in stone yet but regular posters that have been posting for a couple of years most likely wont have a problem getting in.


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## chinacats

If you'd be down with a Portland passaround, if like to try it and as you know there are a couple pros here that maybe interested as well...I'll hit up Josh and Travis if cool with you?

Funny but the very first honyaki I had tried was Salty's Mizuno a few years back and it gave me the impression that all honyaki were workhorses...I've since found out how special that knife was.


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## labor of love

chinacats said:


> If you'd be down with a Portland passaround, if like to try it and as you know there are a couple pros here that maybe interested as well...I'll hit up Josh and Travis if cool with you?
> 
> Funny but the very first honyaki I had tried was Salty's Mizuno a few years back and it gave me the impression that all honyaki were workhorses...I've since found out how special that knife was.



Oh man Brainsausage would love this knife! I know he loves his Toyamas and Katos. Yeah lets do it.


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## labor of love

Edit-double post


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## milkbaby

Great idea and very generous passaround offer! :doublethumbsup:

I've enjoyed Kippington's posts and want to throw my name in but definitely have no time for a passaround. It's an exciting idea though.


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## chiffonodd

Labor, if this knife makes it way up to the US Pacific NW, I'd love to check it out and would also be happy to be a point person for coordinating its movements round these parts. I've sold several used knives on BST, always been real careful about packaging, etc. The only disclaimer I should give is that I've never used or sharpened a honyaki blade, so if you'd rather keep this passaround to folks with more experience in that regard I totally understand.

Anyway, thanks for floating this idea. Shoot me a PM if you think I could make it into the rotation.


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## labor of love

Heres some rough pics to show the knife in its current condition. Still impressed by how light it is-which I suppose is a testament to its killer distal taper.https://m.imgur.com/a/000c3
The spine is about twice as thick as my KS but the knife only weighs 35-40grams more than KS.
Kippington took better pics of the distal taper in his WIP commission thread than I ever could.


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## Godslayer

That grind looks amazing  If your ok with canucks I'd love to play with her, my honyaki experience is fairly limited with only one honyaki in my possession and another enroute but I'm sure I can give some good feedback on this blade from a professional point of view. I'm not sure why but the blade reminds me of a very early dalman, and we all know how that guy turned out. :knife:


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## Miles

I'd love to be able to check it out. I'm really curious to see Kippington' s work.


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## Kippington

Thanks for the kind words Labor (and for the passaround!), I really appreciate it :biggrin:


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## labor of love

Miles said:


> I'd love to be able to check it out. I'm really curious to see Kippington' s work.



Cool. Youre in.


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## labor of love

Godslayer said:


> That grind looks amazing  If your ok with canucks I'd love to play with her, my honyaki experience is fairly limited with only one honyaki in my possession and another enroute but I'm sure I can give some good feedback on this blade from a professional point of view. I'm not sure why but the blade reminds me of a very early dalman, and we all know how that guy turned out. :knife:


Im sorry but I think it would be best to keep it in the states.


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## labor of love

chiffonodd said:


> Labor, if this knife makes it way up to the US Pacific NW, I'd love to check it out and would also be happy to be a point person for coordinating its movements round these parts. I've sold several used knives on BST, always been real careful about packaging, etc. The only disclaimer I should give is that I've never used or sharpened a honyaki blade, so if you'd rather keep this passaround to folks with more experience in that regard I totally understand.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for floating this idea. Shoot me a PM if you think I could make it into the rotation.



No worries. Ill simply tell you what Kippington told me right before he sent it off, the knife is quite thin behind edge so be careful. That would go for sharpening and use. I do want you guys to test it on the stones though, it feels so nice.


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## panda

I'd like to add that kip is the only custom maker that I have any interest in. I've posted before that I don't want anything not made in Japan by an old master or have the right pedigree yet this guy is the exception. Reason is he genuinely seems to me like he cares about geometry/profile and what makes a knife perform the way it does. Where as most other custom makers primary concern is how it looks because that's what customers care about.


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## chinacats

panda said:


> I'd like to add that kip is the only custom maker that I have any interest in. I've posted before that I don't want anything not made in Japan by an old master or have the right pedigree yet this guy is the exception. Reason is he genuinely seems to me like he cares about geometry/profile and what makes a knife perform the way it does. Where as most other custom makers primary concern is how it looks because that's what customers care about.



Have to agree that there is generally way too much emphasis placed on looks vs performance. Really looking forward to giving this one a go.


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## Miles

labor of love said:


> Cool. Youre in.


Great! Thanks!


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## HRC_64

panda said:


> I've posted before that I don't want anything not made in Japan by an old master or have the right pedigree yet this guy is the exception. Reason is he genuinely seems to me like he cares about geometry/profile and what makes a knife perform the way it does. Where as most other custom makers primary concern is how it looks because that's what customers care about.



+1


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## Wdestate

panda said:


> I'd like to add that kip is the only custom maker that I have any interest in. I've posted before that I don't want anything not made in Japan by an old master or have the right pedigree yet this guy is the exception. Reason is he genuinely seems to me like he cares about geometry/profile and what makes a knife perform the way it does. Where as most other custom makers primary concern is how it looks because that's what customers care about.



Not that it would ever change your opinion but I own honyaki from pretty much every "old master" certainly the more known ones mentioned here from Japan and I have plenty of customs that perform as good as any of them. However that extra aesthetic is very expensive and does not add to performance for the most part ( I personally prefer some of the ergonomics brought into custom tho)


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## milkbaby

Bloodroot, Dalman, Catchside, and a bunch of other makers are very interested in performance and what aspects of their knives contribute to it, and a lot of the evidence for that is here on the forum. Strange assertion, just saying... I think most custom makers who specialize in kitchen cutlery are very interested in getting the best performance and constantly doing R&D.


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## bkultra

I know firsthand just how interested Bloodroot Blades is when it comes to performance aspects. We (David and I) have shared many emails and they have all focused around profile and geometry. The only time we discussed cosmetics is when I would bring them up. David would rank at the highest level of obsession I have seen amongst our membership. When he is not making knives, he is researching them... Always looking for good sources of information, be it books or feedback. They may be a vendor here, but with a nearly 4yr wait list do you think they are here to increase sales or because they see us as one such resource?


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## labor of love

Okay first Ill be shipping the knife off to Pensacola Tiger next week. Then in no particular order we have:
Chiffonodd
Miles
East coast connect(China, brainsausage, tkern).


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## Pensacola Tiger

labor of love said:


> Okay first Ill be shipping the knife off to Pensacola Tiger next week. Then in no particular order we have:
> Chiffonodd
> Miles
> East coast connect(China, brainsausage, tkern).



Can't wait!


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## chinacats

Sweet!


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## labor of love

chiffonodd said:


> Labor, if this knife makes it way up to the US Pacific NW, I'd love to check it out and would also be happy to be a point person for coordinating its movements round these parts. I've sold several used knives on BST, always been real careful about packaging, etc. The only disclaimer I should give is that I've never used or sharpened a honyaki blade, so if you'd rather keep this passaround to folks with more experience in that regard I totally understand.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for floating this idea. Shoot me a PM if you think I could make it into the rotation.



Are you friends w pleue by chance?


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## chiffonodd

labor of love said:


> Are you friends w pleue by chance?



Haven't met actually but happy to coordinate around here like I said.


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## pleue

You rang ? I'd love to check it out. I'm out of the kitchen but would love to try it at home. I'm in portland, or btw


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## daveb

labor of love said:


> Okay first Ill be shipping the knife off to Pensacola Tiger next week. Then in no particular order we have:
> Chiffonodd
> Miles
> East coast connect(China, brainsausage, tkern).



I wasn't going to ask to be in, fearing I might like it. But. The PO knows the route from Rick to me by rote. Please?


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## labor of love

I was sorta insulted you didnt ask sooner. &#128512;


daveb said:


> I wasn't going to ask to be in, fearing I might like it. But. The PO knows the route from Rick to me by rote. Please?


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## labor of love

So now we have 3 hubs. Florida, east coast connect, PNW and gotta fit Miles in somewhere.


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## daveb

Miles is in Texas. It's its own thing.


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## labor of love

pleue said:


> You rang ? I'd love to check it out. I'm out of the kitchen but would love to try it at home. I'm in portland, or btw



Cool. Good to hear.


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## Kippington

Guys, does it add much to the cost of shipping to have another knife in the passaround? Like, two knives going around together instead of just the one?

I made a thin knife (concave both sides) that would be a nice contrast to the thick grind.
I'm considering sending this with the passaround if it's a cheap thing to do.







If it's costly I won't bother.


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## panda

kip what was your idea behind the dual concave grind? max food release? that looks way too thin at the edge, lol, you know someone gonna chip the hell out of it.

dave - you're not gonna like it, it's carbon!


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## Kippington

Max food release? More like the worst food release possible haha!

I made it to push the limits of my heat-treatment (before I got the temp controlled oven), and to see how a 'thin behind the edge' knife would perform in a real world kitchen with the average user. 

It sticks to everything, but goes through things like they're not there! It's also amazing how fast this thing sharpens with so little steel to remove. A couple of swipes up and down a 4,000 grit polishing stone and the bevel has been reset!


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## panda

oh, i was thinking about takeda grind, not fully concave from spine to edge. you right, i bet that thing sucks in every food like a vacuum. i would love to see more updates on all your projects, do you have a blog or instagram?


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## Kippington

Unfortunately no, I'm not much of a social media person - I don't even have Facebook.
It would be wise of me to set up an Instagram account though. Just gotta knuckle down and do it.


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## panda

get on it man!!


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## Godslayer

Added shipping cost on a second knife would be minimal, couple bucks, that knife looks exciting but also looks like you would have to be uber careful with technique as any lateral pressure would destroy it, you should take more pics and get that instagram account rolling.


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## labor of love

Yeah, I think 2 very diff knives would be a great idea. Dont see why anyone would mind.


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## panda

Kip do you have any suji in the works?


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## toddnmd

Double passaround? I'd love to be included. I'm in DC area (Northern Virginia).


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## Miles

Wow! That sounds terrific!


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## labor of love

toddnmd said:


> Double passaround? I'd love to be included. I'm in DC area (Northern Virginia).



Cool.


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## Kippington

Good news! Double passaround has been confirmed! :biggrin:

Marek07 - the owner of the thin knife - has been kind enough to humor my proposal to send it out West (I probably should've run it past him beforehand).
It'll be sent out to the first person on the passaround list (I believe it's Pensacola Tiger) as soon as we can confirm an address. Hopefully the knife won't take longer then a couple of weeks to get there and the passaround goes along as planned.

No suji on the cards yet Panda. I'm gonna stick to making gyutos for a while.


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## Kippington

Marek's knife should be touching down in the US in the next couple of days.
I know this is obvious, but I _have _to stress these points:


*DON'T* use coarse or medium stones on this knife. Removing only a small amount of metal will reset the entire bevel
*DO* try the knife on fine stones, 4,000 grit and up. It would be nice to hear some opinions on sharpening feedback.
*DON'T* cut hard items with this knife (no thick pumpkin skins)
*DO* absolutely use it to cut potatoes in half. I'd love to know if anyone has a knife that can fall through food better (or quieter!) than Marek's 'laser'
Neither of these knives belong to me, so I'd like to give heartfelt thanks to both Marek and Craig for sending out my work for preview. This post is to help get the knives back to their respective owners in good condition.

Feel free to post any thoughts or criticisms - good or bad. I don't make knives for a living so it's not like bad reviews will hurt my income.
I mostly do this to keep learning about blade performance and design (and coz it's hella fun!). Hopefully these two knives on the opposite ends of the laser/workhorse spectrum will help showcase that.


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## panda

in other words research/feedback from workhorse vs laser will result in hybrid next? =P


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## Kippington

panda said:


> in other words research/feedback from workhorse vs laser will result in hybrid next? =P



Actually, I leaned a lot about the transition from workhorse to laser from making Craig's knife. A long tapered blade, even if it's thick at the heel, can still perform like a laser towards the tip. Food release gets worse but separation gets better as the spine shrinks - we all know that right? How that transitions from thick to thin along the length of a single blade-face was fascinating to me, and was something I hadn't considered till recently. A heavy taper lends itself to a multi-functional service - highly dependent on the users' arm motion, as well as the location (and direction) of the cut in relation to its distance from the handle.






You are essentially right, my next project is a medium weight knife with the food release of a workhorse and the separation of a 'laser'.
Well that's the idea anyway, drop everything and go straight for the unicorn! :biggrin:


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## panda

looking forward to your end game design!!


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## labor of love

I cant wait until people see the distal taper on the workhorse that Kippington just shared a photo of. Its quite impressive in person.


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## labor of love

labor of love said:


> Okay first Ill be shipping the knife off to Pensacola Tiger next week. Then in no particular order we have:
> Chiffonodd
> Miles
> East coast connect(China, brainsausage, tkern).



Updated order:
Pen tiger
DaveB
Toddmd 
China
Maybe brainsausage 
Maybe tkern
chiffonodd
Pleue
Miles
Panda


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## labor of love

I didnt leave anyone out did I?


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## labor of love

Before I let go of my Kippington, I just wanted to remind everybody why Im doing this. I love this knife. I dont want to be without it. It saddens me just to know it wont be in my roll when I open it at work and set up my station. But it would help Kippington to get some feedback and discussion going about his work so far. Also, I want him to get some more exposure here. And I want some others to share in the experience of Kippington workhorse awesomeness. So please lets hear some thoughts about this knife both positive and negative.
Merci Beaucoup


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## panda

Look @ dat Creole influence &#129315; def been in kitchens long time..


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## Godslayer

labor of love said:


> I didnt leave anyone out did I?



Can I play too  I'll go last because I am a canuck :knife: 

also whats the difference between creole and cajun lol


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## chinacats

labor of love said:


> Updated order:
> Pen tiger
> DaveB
> Toddmd
> China
> Maybe brainsausage
> Maybe tkern
> chiffonodd
> Pleue
> Miles
> Panda




Okay, spoke to Josh and he's definitely down. I'll try to get with Travis this week.


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## ian

So, I didnt initially respond to this because I thought youd probably want to send it to people whove been around on the site longer. However, on second thought it doesnt hurt to ask. Im in Boston (maybe someone else on the list is in New England too?) And if you want more info on me you can find me on googlemy handles my real name. Again, totally understand if you want to keep the rotation to more experienced members, but thought Id ask.


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## labor of love

ianbiringer said:


> So, I didnt initially respond to this because I thought youd probably want to send it to people whove been around on the site longer. However, on second thought it doesnt hurt to ask. Im in Boston (maybe someone else on the list is in New England too?) And if you want more info on me you can find me on googlemy handles my real name. Again, totally understand if you want to keep the rotation to more experienced members, but thought Id ask.


Thanks for the interest but I think I would rather keep this pass around exclusively for more seasoned forum members.


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## ian

No problem, that makes sense.


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## labor of love

Also, Im not exactly sure how much postage costs to return Mareks Kippington back to him in Australia(with insurance) but it would great if everybody could donate a few bucks to help make that happen.


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## Kippington

I'm willing to throw in some cash to help you send it back. I believe PT has also kindly offered.


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## Pensacola Tiger

labor of love said:


> Also, Im not exactly sure how much postage costs to return Mareks Kippington back to him in Australia(with insurance) but it would great if everybody could donate a few bucks to help make that happen.





Kippington said:


> I'm willing to throw in some cash to help you send it back. I believe PT has also kindly offered.



Priority Mail International should cost around $55 plus insurance for any value over $200.


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## chiffonodd

labor of love said:


> Also, Im not exactly sure how much postage costs to return Mareks Kippington back to him in Australia(with insurance) but it would great if everybody could donate a few bucks to help make that happen.



I agree that it is more than fair for anyone who participates in the passaround to help cover costs back to Oz. Just let us know the best way to do this.


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## Miles

Absolutely. More than happy to pitch in.


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## labor of love

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Priority Mail International should cost around $55 plus insurance for any value over $200.



Thanks. So theres 10 participants, if everyone donates $6-7 that should pretty much cover the costs( Im guessing that will pretty much cover insurance too). We can wait until the end collect the funds. Sound good?


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## chinacats

Makes sense to me


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## chiffonodd

Yup!


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## pleue

Works for me


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## ashy2classy

So when will we be able to buy these things??? :biggrin:


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## labor of love

Kippington might as well crank out some workhorses, people are going to want them.


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## Kippington

Hah, I'd need to buy stock in thicker cross-sections to make more!
Lets see how these knives get reviewed first.


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## panda

pleeeeeease get some shirogami, or spicy white from devin thomas! or just more W2


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## TheCaptain

panda said:


> pleeeeeease get some shirogami, or spicy white from devin thomas! or just more W2


+1!


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## Kippington

I will try to in the future. Right now I've stockpiled up on 1095, enough to make about fifteen 240mm knives. I'll work on these before I buy more steel.
Now that I have a heat-treating furnace, I'm actually thinking of going for one of the powdered steels. I'll make up my mind depending on how the next few months go with the 1095.


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## labor of love

Is the Kipp laser also w2? It would be pretty cool if it wasnt, Id personally like to compare the 2 steels to each other.


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## chinacats

Kippington said:


> I will try to in the future. Right now I've stockpiled up on 1095, enough to make about fifteen 240mm knives. I'll work on these before I buy more steel.
> Now that I have a heat-treating furnace, I'm actually thinking of going for one of the powdered steels. I'll make up my mind depending on how the next few months go with the 1095.



Stick with carbon please! Nothing wrong with 1095, or O1, or W2, or...


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## milkbaby

Kippington said:


> I will try to in the future. Right now I've stockpiled up on 1095, enough to make about fifteen 240mm knives. I'll work on these before I buy more steel.
> Now that I have a heat-treating furnace, I'm actually thinking of going for one of the powdered steels. I'll make up my mind depending on how the next few months go with the 1095.



Stainless is probably an easier sell to the masses than non-stainless. Although if you anticipate your target customer to be like the average knife nut here, that's not as important. I hardly ever use any stainless in the kitchen myself.


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## Kippington

Yeah thats one of the reasons I bought the temperature controlled kiln - For its ability to do stainless knives. I've lived with enough housemates to see that there's absolutely no way the average person would be able to keep a super thin carbon knife in reasonable shape.
They've managed to rust my house-share knife, a VG-10 shun. I'm not even mad... I'm impressed!



labor of love said:


> Is the Kipp laser also w2? It would be pretty cool if it wasnt, Id personally like to compare the 2 steels to each other.



They are both W2. No comparisons, unfortunately.


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## daveb

chinacats said:


> Stick with carbon please! Nothing wrong with 1095, or O1, or W2, or...



Pls ignore the Luddite.:cool2:


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## Kippington

Are you making knives too dave?

There's a "Dave B" over on hypefreeblades who has made kitchen bladesmithing posts over the last month.


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## chinacats

Kippington said:


> Are you making knives too dave?
> 
> There's a "Dave B" over on hypefreeblades who has made kitchen bladesmithing posts over the last month.



Are they stainless?


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## Danzo

Im a little late to this discussion. I dont expect to be put on the list here, but chiffnod, if by PNW you mean Seattle, Id love to sneak a peek while you have it. This knife looks amazing, Id be willing to drive, a bit.


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## panda

dave would be making stainless suji's


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## daveb

Not me. I can make dinner. I can make a mess. But I come up short in the mechanical aptitude department.

But the world does need more stainless sujis.


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## Pensacola Tiger

Marek's knife was delivered safe and sound. 

Awaiting Craig's knife later today.

Rick


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## panda

hey pt cruiser, you should do a video! and include two knives that these two examples remind you the most of for comparison sake. i really like that youre the first in this passaround since youve tried anything and everything out there.


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## Pensacola Tiger

panda said:


> hey pt cruiser, you should do a video! and include two knives that these two examples remind you the most of for comparison sake. i really like that youre the first in this passaround since youve tried anything and everything out there.



No promises on the video, but I'll try.

I have both knives now and will be using them this weekend. Stay tuned.


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## Kippington

They both arrived on the same day? Sweet!

Pandas suggestion on comparisons to other knives is a good idea. Looking forward to your thoughts.


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## supersayan3

Just saw the post , what a beautiful knife [emoji7]
Thumbs up [emoji106]


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## Pensacola Tiger

Both knives will be on the way to DaveB all too soon for me. I've enjoyed using them for the last week and will be sorry to see them go. I'll have something to post soon.

Thanks to Marek and Craig for lending them, and Jules for making them!


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## labor of love

Ive got some exciting news....I offered Devin Thomas a spot in the pass around and he accepted. I want to place him in between Daveb and Todd( makes the most sense geographically). 
Glad to have you on board Devin.


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## Miles

Wow!!! Fantastic!


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## Pensacola Tiger

I just got a good mailing address for daveb, and the knives will be on the way to him Monday.


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## ashy2classy

So wish I could participate (assuming the list is complete)! Looking forward to hearing everyone's impressions.


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## Pensacola Tiger

On arrival I formed some quick impressions. Both knives had nicely rounded spines and choil areas, which spoke to the level of detail involved in their making. The edges on both knives were more than acceptable. The handles on both knives were austerely plain by the standards of many, but were completely functional. 

I took a few measurements of both knives:

Kippington 24 cm honyaki wa-gyuto

Weight 225 g
Total Length 387 mm
Tip to Heel Length	247 mm
Blade Height @ Heel	53 mm
Spine Above Heel 4.1 mm
Spine @ Midblade	2.7 mm
Spine 1cm From tip	0.5 mm
Handle Design Octagonal plain wood

Kippington 24 cm wa-gyuto

Weight 178 g
Total Length 392 mm
Tip to Heel Length	243 mm
Blade Height @ Heel	53 mm
Spine Above Heel 3.3 mm
Spine @ Midbladee	2.5 mm
Spine 1cm From tip	0.5 mm
Steel
Handle Design Octagonal plain wood

The profiles were nearly identical, yet the two knives were very much different in both feel and use. The honyaki had a much more pronounced forward weighting, which tended to make it feel more authoritative in use, much like using a Yoshiaki Fujiwara (Kato). This made using it slightly more satisfying, at least to me. 

Both knives were very think behind the edge and excelled in cutting shorter product. The honyaki, with its wider spine had a slight tendency to break root vegetables like potatoes and large carrots if the ear of the blade was used. Cutting with the forward part of the blade eliminated this tendency. The other knife had no such issue. 

Adhesion of product was not objectionable in either knife, though the release of the honyaki was, unsurprisingly, somewhat better.

Neither knife was highly reactive in use, even without patina, unlike some soft iron clad knives that would turn onions brown. The honyaki had some patina that I added to during the test, while the other knife arrived clean and took on some patina while I had it. 

Both knives had tips that were quite thin, and making the horizontal cuts in an onion preparatory to dicing it was an absurdly easy task.

Using the lighter gyuto reminded me of a either a Kochi with a somewhat flatter profile, or of a well-ground kurouchi Carter. It fell through food with no trace of wedging and with minimal adhesion. 

Using the heavier bladed knife most reminded me of using a Watanabe Pro or a non-workhorse Kato - there was an authority to the knife that made prep fun and a bit more efficient. I found that I tended to reach for the honyaki more often because of this.

I cant comment on edge retention, except to say that after a week of preparing meals at home I was unable to detect any degradation of the edges of either knife.

Ive racked my brain to try to find something that might be improved in wither knife and come up empty. 

I was sad to send them on to Dave when my week was up, and look forward to having one for my own.

Thanks again for the opportunity to use and compare these blades.


----------



## Wdestate

Nice write up Pensacola


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

Correction. "Both knives were very think behind the edge..." should read "Both knives were very *thin* behind the edge...".


----------



## Kippington

Very cool! Thanks for the review.


----------



## panda

gonna be pretty cool to compare the heat treatment of two differentially hardened W2 (this vs mario) workhorses


----------



## Kippington

A HT comparison sounds like a good idea!
Keep in mind that I did the HT on these two passarounds by eye. Since then I've bought a temperature controlled kiln for better accuracy.
I could never really shake the thought that, no matter how much practice I'd had, the quality of my HT was hanging on how well my eyes could differentiate a red_ish_-orange from an orang_ish_-red!







Any idea on how Mario does his HT?


----------



## panda

who has the knives now? and where are the impressions?


----------



## Anton

Kippington said:


> A HT comparison sounds like a good idea!
> Keep in mind that I did the HT on these two passarounds by eye. Since then I've bought a temperature controlled kiln for better accuracy.
> I could never really shake the thought that, no matter how much practice I'd had, the quality of my HT was hanging on how well my eyes could differentiate a red_ish_-orange from an orang_ish_-red!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea on how Mario does his HT?



Forgive my naiveness, but isn't there a way to measure this with let's say laser thermometer, or something along these lines?


----------



## labor of love

panda said:


> who has the knives now? and where are the impressions?



Good ole daveb is about to chime in at any moment.


----------



## bkultra

Anton said:


> Forgive my naiveness, but isn't there a way to measure this with let's say laser thermometer, or something along these lines?



In this video you can watch Tatsuo Ikeda call out the exact second the blade hits 800 degrees Celsius (by eye). They use a FLIR infrared camera to confirm the temperature. This near the very end of the video (around 20:16)

[video=youtube;OYlXWHo7fk4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYlXWHo7fk4[/video]


----------



## daveb

USPS has it. Heading to Vegas.


----------



## Kippington

*@Anton and bkultra*

I spent a couple of hundred dollars on a good IR thermometer, only to discover they are not as accurate as I was lead to believe, (unless you're willing to spend thousands of dollars).
Using IR, a reading +/- 50°C off the _actual _temp is a good result under these circumstances... and with those numbers you may as well save some money and use your eyes and your instincts instead. Basically even with an IR thermometer, HT'ing in an open forge still feels like a crap-shoot.

I have a bit of a rant about this screenshot:






According to this image, both the tip and the heel of the knife are sitting at around 700°C when he calls it. If this were true, they won't harden properly in the quench. It also means that his window of opportunity to call 800°C was huge, as he could've called it 100°C earlier and he still would've been technically 'right'.

At the bottom left you can see the camera has the *E/&#949;/emissivity* set to 1.00. This is the factory default setting on IR thermometers, and the fact that they left it on 1 tells me that they made no compensation for emissivity (or likely the reflectivity) of the steel.
To put this into perspective, as I type this my IR thermometer tells me the wooden floor in my room is *22.4°C* with *&#949;*=1.0, or *-40.1°C* with *&#949;*=0.1 - a difference of over 60 degrees. Cheap IR thermometers don't give the option to change this setting.

From *The Engineering Toolbox*:


> The emissivity coefficient - *&#949;* - indicates the radiation of heat from a 'grey body' according the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, compared with the radiation of heat from a ideal 'black body' with the emissivity coefficient &#949; = 1.
> The emissivity coefficient - *&#949;* - for some common materials can be found in the table below. Note that the emissivity coefficients for some products varies with the temperature. As a guideline the emmisivities below are based on temperature 300 K.
> 
> 
> *Surface Material**Emissivity Coefficient (&#949;)*Steel Oxidized0.79Steel Polished0.07Stainless Steel, weathered0.85Stainless Steel, polished0.075Stainless Steel, type 3010.54 - 0.63Steel Galvanized Old0.88Steel Galvanized New0.23



All of this, plus the absence of recalescence in the image (a temporary rise in temperature of a cooling metal caused by a change in crystal structure, starting at roughly 720°C in air-cooled carbon steels) leads me to believe that they've actually under-shot the mark with the camera, and that the center of the blade is considerably hotter than the 799.9°C we're told.





*(recalescence)*

Bleh... f**king thermodynamics!


----------



## Kippington

This image helps to illustrate the problem:
*The faces on this cube are all the same temperature*, but the differing emissivity and reflectivity of the surfaces make each one appear different to an IR camera. You can even see the reflection of the hand on a couple of the faces. Only the black surface has an accurate reading at this setting (E=1.00), which is the same setting they used in the Ikeda video. In other words, the cameras are set up for an incorrect reading on metal.






_(Photographs of an aluminum Leslie's cube. The color photographs are taken using an infrared camera; the black and white photographs underneath are taken with an ordinary camera. All faces of the cube are at the same temperature of about 55 °C (131 °F). The face of the cube that has been painted black has a large emissivity, which is indicated by the reddish color in the infrared photograph. The polished face of the cube has a low emissivity indicated by the blue color, and the reflected image of the warm hand is clear.)_


----------



## HRC_64

^good post^


----------



## labor of love

Knifes should be on the way to Todd. China, you will be on deck soon enough.


labor of love said:


> Updated order:
> Pen tiger
> DaveB
> Toddmd
> China
> Maybe brainsausage
> Maybe tkern
> chiffonodd
> Pleue
> Miles
> Panda


----------



## panda

i hope it's not going to be a fat arse by the time it gets to me. dont ruin the geometry too fast guys!


----------



## skewed

Craig- I would enjoy a chance to check this one out too. Thanks.


----------



## labor of love

skewed said:


> Craig- I would enjoy a chance to check this one out too. Thanks.



&#128526; done


----------



## toddnmd

Just a quick update--I received the knives on Monday. LoL was cool with me holding on to them until the East Coast Gathering on 04/29, so I'll bring them along and people can check them out there.


----------



## panda

todd why dont you write up your impressions in the mean time?


----------



## Kippington

Yes please! :biggrin:


----------



## brainsausage

The eagles have landed. Great packing job by Todd. They both look pretty rad profile and grind wise, and both in very different ways. Ill report back once I get a chance to put them through their paces.


----------



## Kippington

Appreciate the update and looking forward to your thoughts!


----------



## TEWNCfarms

bkultra said:


> In this video you can watch Tatsuo Ikeda call out the exact second the blade hits 800 degrees Celsius (by eye). They use a FLIR infrared camera to confirm the temperature. This near the very end of the video (around 20:16)
> 
> [video=youtube;OYlXWHo7fk4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYlXWHo7fk4[/video]



This was awesome and insane! Great video


----------



## TEWNCfarms

Kippington said:


> This image helps to illustrate the problem:
> *The faces on this cube are all the same temperature*, but the differing emissivity and reflectivity of the surfaces make each one appear different to an IR camera. You can even see the reflection of the hand on a couple of the faces. Only the black surface has an accurate reading at this setting (E=1.00), which is the same setting they used in the Ikeda video. In other words, the cameras are set up for an incorrect reading on metal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(Photographs of an aluminum Leslie's cube. The color photographs are taken using an infrared camera; the black and white photographs underneath are taken with an ordinary camera. All faces of the cube are at the same temperature of about 55 °C (131 °F). The face of the cube that has been painted black has a large emissivity, which is indicated by the reddish color in the infrared photograph. The polished face of the cube has a low emissivity indicated by the blue color, and the reflected image of the warm hand is clear.)_



Haha and then you have to come in with Facts and Science and Explanations and boggle my mind with all this fancy talk! Seriously though you really opened my eyes on what the video was showing and about IR tech. Every time I read something from you its pretty intense, always a wealth of knowledge I had no idea about


----------



## TEWNCfarms

labor of love said:


> The reason I want to do this pass around is because I would like to drum up support for Kippington. Hes our guy, who relatively recently acquired his hobbiest craftsman badge here at the forum. Hes full of innovative ideas about how to make knives better. As great as it is to chase after accomplished makers whose work resonates with you, I really the idea of supporting a guy like Kippington. This gyuto is great in all the areas that matter to me. He is a math wizard, and it shows in the extreme distal taper and grind. That being said, this is a workhorse. So it does have a beefy feel to it while maintaining a weight thats comfortable in hand (I wanna say somewhere around 205grams-210 grams).
> I wanted this particular knife because I thought I would be cool to own a workhorse honyaki as it seems most honyaki blades are quite thin. So this blade feels special in that respect. But I should point out that hes not just making workhorse blades, Ill likely be getting something thinner from him soon.
> The steel used was W2, which I found equally enjoyable to sharpen as heiji carbon and mizuno honyaki, although it would be nice to get a second opinion (Anton?). It has all attributes that honyaki fans like IMO. Kippington just doesnt have an established reputation yet that other makers do. But Im confident he will once he gets more commissions and feedback. Anyway, if youre on a Hiromoto honyaki budget I would suggest you atleast consider Kippington first, customizing a honyaki is a pretty cool venture IMO.
> Anyway, enough shilling.
> This is a very important knife to me so Im going to be selective about who uses it. Sorry, but thats just way its gotta be. I dont have any rules set in stone yet but regular posters that have been posting for a couple of years most likely wont have a problem getting in.



This is awesome I had no idea this was even a thing on the forum! Id love to try it out, but I dont know if I want that responsibility If I was even granted permission. But i do love the Community of this place


----------



## TEWNCfarms

Kippington said:


> Thanks for the kind words Labor (and for the passaround!), I really appreciate it :biggrin:



Do you have a vendor page or anything?


----------



## Marek07

TEWNCfarms said:


> Do you have a vendor page or anything?


He doesn't have a vendor page but has started a few threads in Handiwork Display (http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forumdisplay.php/104-Handiwork-Display)


----------



## brainsausage

Sorry for dragging ass on this, and not updating sooner. Passed them off to TKern in person last Thursday. Id prefer not to comment too much so as not to color the next peoples in lines impressions. I will say that its obvious that Kippington has handled a lot of knives. If I didnt know better Id think these were made by a veteran craftsman. They feel and perform MUCH better than some well known makers items that Ive worked with. Very impressed. Well done sir. Well done indeeed.


----------



## panda

tell travis he better post his impressions on this thread!


----------



## Kippington

brainsausage said:


> Sorry for dragging ass on this, and not updating sooner. Passed them off to TKern in person last Thursday. Id prefer not to comment too much so as not to color the next peoples in lines impressions. I will say that its obvious that Kippington has handled a lot of knives. If I didnt know better Id think these were made by a veteran craftsman. They feel and perform MUCH better than some well known makers items that Ive worked with. Very impressed. Well done sir. Well done indeeed.



Awesome dude, thanks for the confidence boost, I needed it this week!



TEWNCfarms said:


> Haha and then you have to come in with Facts and Science and Explanations and boggle my mind with all this fancy talk! Seriously though you really opened my eyes on what the video was showing and about IR tech. Every time I read something from you its pretty intense, always a wealth of knowledge I had no idea about



I only know about this because of my research into knife related stuff, gotta keep learning to make em' better. I figured there might be some interest here, as we're all into knives in one way or another. 
You should try quenching a blade sometime without any temperature aids other than your eyes. I got a real sense of "what the hell is going on right now, what just happened?" which unleashed a colossal appetite to learn more about the smallest details.


----------



## tkern

I passed the knives off to chinacats in person last night. In turn he gave me a bunch of the world's hottest peppers. I feel like that could become more common place. Trading knives for produce.
As brainsausage said, these knives are very well made and perform great. I didn't get a chance to touch them up on a stone but as is pretty damn impressive. My preference is for the thinner of the two but I can definitely see the love for the other.
Thanks for putting these up for a pass around and thanks to Kippington.


----------



## Kippington

Thanks for the update and your thoughts, I prefer the thinner one too. 

I reckon it was a really good idea to send two opposing knives around together. I feel they are pretty good representations of thick and thin grinds, and it's great to hear which of the two you guys prefer.


----------



## TEWNCfarms

Kippington said:


> Awesome dude, thanks for the confidence boost, I needed it this week!
> 
> 
> 
> I only know about this because of my research into knife related stuff, gotta keep learning to make em' better. I figured there might be some interest here, as we're all into knives in one way or another.
> You should try quenching a blade sometime without any temperature aids other than your eyes. I got a real sense of "what the hell is going on right now, what just happened?" which unleashed a colossal appetite to learn more about the smallest details.



Yeah Id love to get into it myself, just dont have the time nor the money. I remember seeing a Kramer video and he mentions how he watches (learned from the Japanese used to do a long time ago, and sure a lot still do) but they watch the shadow come over the knife at some point and it means its cooled down or tempered or whatever, pretty interesting.

What is the food release like on your thin knife thats being passed around?


----------



## Kippington

TEWNCfarms said:


> What is the food release like on your thin knife thats being passed around?



I have no idea... some people in the passaround have reported that the thicker of the two has the best food release, while others report that the thinner one does it better.
It's all been very interesting to me!

Yeah the moving shadow is called recalescence. It's a phase shift in the metal, the recrystallization/restructuring of the grains, and a beautiful thing to see in person (well, I think so anyway :biggrin.

[video=youtube;IuPix6pOtNM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuPix6pOtNM[/video]


----------



## panda

hurry up and work on a workpony prototype kip!! 

i have a feeling i'm going to prefer the thick one cause the thinner one looks too thin for my tastes.


----------



## chinacats

These will go out early next week and I'll throw in some detailed thoughts once shipped. Briefly, both are very well made and I'd actually prefer a hybrid of the 2.

Who's on deck? I believe Josh mentioned Son but I didn't see him on the list?


----------



## TEWNCfarms

Kippington said:


> I have no idea... some people in the passaround have reported that the thicker of the two has the best food release, while others report that the thinner one does it better.
> It's all been very interesting to me!
> 
> Yeah the moving shadow is called recalescence. It's a phase shift in the metal, the recrystallization/restructuring of the grains, and a beautiful thing to see in person (well, I think so anyway :biggrin.
> 
> [video=youtube;IuPix6pOtNM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuPix6pOtNM[/video]



Yeah thats crazy! I love it! Wasnt there an ancient word/meaning for it?


----------



## Miles

Great. Looking forward to it!


----------



## brainsausage

Yeah have to agree with Jim, if I had my druthers Id prefer something between the two of these. That being said Id take the thinner over the thicker if I was pressed. Thicker had better release, but the thinner had better separation and feel overall imo. Release isnt as important to me, but I can see why it is for others.


----------



## labor of love

I love my thicker Kippington and I dont think Id change a thing about it except the handle. Which by the way is happening next. China, can you send it to panda? While in his possession workhorse will get a handle upgrade. Then to miles.
Chiffonold and pleue, you guys still interested?


----------



## labor of love

Just a reminder for funds to get the laser back to the down under. I dont need them yet, but if anyone wants to get it out of the way now its fine.


----------



## labor of love

labor of love said:


> Thanks. So theres 10 participants, if everyone donates $6-7 that should pretty much cover the costs( Im guessing that will pretty much cover insurance too). We can wait until the end collect the funds. Sound good?





labor of love said:


> Also, Im not exactly sure how much postage costs to return Mareks Kippington back to him in Australia(with insurance) but it would great if everybody could donate a few bucks to help make that happen.





Pensacola Tiger said:


> Priority Mail International should cost around $55 plus insurance for any value over $200.


This is the plan.


----------



## tkern

labor of love said:


> This is the plan.



Who is the money being sent to?


----------



## labor of love

Me. Ill be the last person because the workhorse is mine anyway.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

labor of love said:


> Just a reminder for funds to get the laser back to the down under. I dont need them yet, but if anyone wants to get it out of the way now its fine.



What's the amount to chip in, Craig?


----------



## labor of love

Just $5 is cool. I can make that work.


----------



## labor of love

Thanks for payment tkern.


----------



## Kippington

Thanks for the valuable feedback everyone, I'll start working on a grind between the two.
I'll be honest, combining the two extremes will end up looking like a very normal grind at the choil, but the taper I like to put into the length of my knives should make the performance interesting.

Hey, I guess I can call it the work pony haha! :biggrin:


----------



## brainsausage

Kippington said:


> Thanks for the valuable feedback everyone, I'll start working on a grind between the two.
> I'll be honest, combining the two extremes will end up looking like a very normal grind at the choil, but the taper I like to put into the length of my knives should make the performance interesting.
> 
> Hey, I guess I can call it the work pony haha! :biggrin:



Funny you should mention that, as my two favorite gyutos have very different grinds from heel to tip. Which is to be expected to some degree with any good gyuto of course. My billipp took a bit to get used to until I realized it was meant to be a true all purpose. The grind is much thicker towards the heel for heavy tasks, and becomes more complex as it progresses. My Toyama has shades of this concept as well, which is why I preferred my 270 over my 240 as I felt it allowed the grind to really do its thing. Hopefully that makes some kind of sense?


----------



## labor of love

Thanks for payment pen tiger


----------



## labor of love

Thanks for payment josh. China your inbox is full.


----------



## chinacats

Clear


----------



## panda

i got the kippies in and have some first impressions. i have finally found a laser i actually like, this one cuts amazing and the highly polished jnat edge that was put on it by another member here is actually quite fitting for this knife even though i normally not a fan of refined edges. 

workhorse on the other hand i felt was not cutting so well, after processing some veggies i got agitated and instead took to the stones to see how kippington's heat treatment of W2 steel is compared to my mario (it's a toss up, feedback wise kip feels better on lower grit and mario feels better on higher grit. kip was easier to sharpen, i am guessing is slightly lower hrc. upon laying the blade face flat i immediately realized this thing needed some geometry adjustment. perhaps this is why few before me preferred the laser? so i gave it a 30minute thinning session on chosera 400 and light polish on aizu. cuts as i expected it to now, smooth and sexy. 

i have not touched the laser on stones yet however will be interesting to see how 1095 pushed to its potential will feel. already love how it feels going through food, got nice spring to it.

i also wanted to chime in on the handles. they are good! they look boring and kinda weird without a ferrule, but it is very comfortable and the wood feels great. the laser has bevels more rounded which i like but is skinnier, i prefer the fatter one on workhorse.

i know this much; out of all the knives coming out of OZ, i only want a KIPPINGTON!! you hear that kip? hurry up and get your shop back running. i guarantee you you'll have orders waiting. just make a bunch of each laser/pony/horse


----------



## Kippington

Hah it was always a bit of a gamble sending them around to so many people, I'd be very curious to know how they look now after you've done some work to them. I'll only ever get to see the Marek laser again, as Craig's WH will of course stay in the US.
I've actually learned a lot about grinds in the year or so since I made the two passarounds. My shop is back up and running but it's time for me to stop focusing on the profile/grind/HT and instead look into making better handles. I've gone a little quiet on the forum as I do a little R&D in that direction. I appreciate your kind words on the handles you've got with you.

I need a freaking logo too! :laugh:


----------



## valgard

Kippington said:


> I need a freaking logo too! :laugh:



It's got to be a parrot-like bird!


----------



## Nemo

valgard said:


> It's got to be a parrot-like bird!


Yup


----------



## brainsausage

I actually forgot to mention that I really dig the simple handles, agree with Sun on the preferring the bigger one. I have big mitts&#129330;


----------



## panda

barely made a dent, but just the spot right at the edge needed serious trimming so i basically just knocked that 'tiny shoulder' off. still needs more work but it cuts pretty good now.
in its current state is measured right at 52mm, so its lost 1mm since birth.


----------



## chinacats

That should actually make a good bit of difference...lol will probably enjoy not getting back a fatty...really loved the thin tip it sports...but definitely needed a bit of meat taken off the middle.


----------



## labor of love

The workhorse has been sharpened enough at this point that it just isnt performing the way it should. This was how it looked at the beginning of the passaround.
https://i.imgur.com/74a48tK.jpg
Im going to take it out of the passaround. Last 3 people waiting for passaround, are you guys still interested in using just the laser?


----------



## daveb

It's going to be so fixed that it'll be broke.


----------



## panda

i was under the impression that the laser is 1095, turns out theyre both W2. i swear though the steel in the laser feels different (i like it more on laser). kip - is that simply because of difference in stock thickness or was there a change in heat treat between the two?


----------



## Kippington

Yeah theres a difference in the heat treatment between the two. These were tempered over an open forge with the infrared temperature gun reading me the numbers. Low and behold, the readings are innaccurate as I mentioned earlier in this thread, so the WH may have a higher temper. Also the quenching temps probably differed slightly... orangish-red vs redish-orange and all that jazz.

All I can say is, thank goodness for the standardization of my HTing kiln!

Really nice work on the thinning btw, I'm sure that LOL really appreciates it. Could you take a picture of the laser's choil so we can compare its current state to the picture I posted earlier?


----------



## labor of love

I love sharpening the workhorse, looking forward to testing the laser.


----------



## panda

here is laser choil


----------



## McMan

^^ Proper!


----------



## panda

it's actually about same spine thickness as my marko, just ground much thinner, you can see the concavity starts very high up the blade, like a reverse convex.

i do prefer the WH, but as far as lasers go, this one is da best, aint nothing better for thin cuts.

also kip, what ever heat treat you did on the laser, you should stick to that regiment, it's pretty dope. two other knife nuts i've let try it have both complimented on its springiness and how much they liked it.


----------



## TEWNCfarms

panda said:


> it's actually about same spine thickness as my marko, just ground much thinner, you can see the concavity starts very high up the blade, like a reverse convex.
> 
> i do prefer the WH, but as far as lasers go, this one is da best, aint nothing better for thin cuts.
> 
> also kip, what ever heat treat you did on the laser, you should stick to that regiment, it's pretty dope. two other knife nuts i've let try it have both complimented on its springiness and how much they liked it.



How do you all tell the difference of heat treatment? Like what defines it in how its used/feel?


----------



## panda

i'm just overly sensitive to how it feels while in use. what i say comes out as exaggerated when in reality is extremely subtle differences. but to me that 1% difference resonates with me.


----------



## Kippington

Thanks for the choil shots of the laser, it looks to be in good shape.

In regards to the differing HT, I'd hate to get all technical (pfft! :laugh but the elasticity of steel is pretty much constant regardless of HT - So because the laser is ground thinner over the workhorse, the thicker workhorse will naturally feel more solid (although I ground the tip on that to be thin as well), the laser springier... and there's practically nothing I can do to change it.

Here's a different way of thinking of it: Many of us have seen videos out there of great bladesmiths displaying the strength and tenacity of their heat-treatment by locking their blade vertically in a vice and bending it 90 degrees without having it crack or delaminate:






Yet if you took a cheap filleting knife, there would be no issue at all in passing the same test due to how thin it is:






A workhorse style knife would feel like a crowbar in comparison to the springy laser. There's no way around it, not without beating physics anyway.
In regards to the passaround, I think that the double concave thin-behind-the-edge knife feels awesome! :biggrin: It has a whispy feeling on the stones and a glidey feeling on the board, hard to describe but it feels great! I've always been a laser fanboy though...


----------



## HRC_64

So what happens when you heat-treat a spring?


----------



## Kippington

We would need to HT a spring if one-of-two problems occur: 

It's too soft and will plasticity deform (i.e bends in a way that it can't return back to its original shape) or... 
It's too hard and cracks when a load is applied.
For these reasons, Plasticine and glass would make terrible springs.

If these two points aren't an issue, we can depend on the constant elasticity of steel to do the springy work for us. The elasticity is adjustable not by HT, but by changing the dimensions of the spring... or in the case of kitchen knives, the _grind_. :thumbsup:

[video=youtube;aXpMAJoez1Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXpMAJoez1Q[/video]

Spring steels can make really good knives! :biggrin:


----------



## panda

the workhorse got new shoes! octo keyaki handle from my old watanabe, the best handle i've ever used, fits perfectly.


----------



## Kippington

Ooohhh purdy! :doublethumbsup:

I had to laugh at your choice of the background! :lol2:


----------



## panda

it's not mine, my buddy who did the install told me to read it, i am only interested in the history bit about iwasaki's apprentices.

honestly i really liked your original handle, it just needs a contrasting ferrule, hehe. i have a pic of it with a fake ferrule sharpied on to see what it would look like, shall i post?


----------



## chinacats

I really liked the origins handles but that thing looks great with the Wat handle. Love to see the faux ferrule


----------



## Kippington

Yeah post it! I was considering doing something like that with ink, but it would run off way too easily, or be completely not food safe.

I'm working on my handle game, getting there slowly. My first attempt at a spacer worked out alright, but I'm struggling with wood and all the different finishes.






Would it be a bad idea to buy black wood stain and varnish for the ferrule?


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## valgard

That honyaki looks sweet Jules


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## Kippington

Thanks man, I need the funds so I'll etch and polish it a bit better then put it up here for sale soon. This R&D phase of knife-making is expensive and takes up so much time!


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## panda

buy some black buffalo horn, and try doing a taper at the ferrule like marko. 
i hate spacers but many people seem to dig it so make what sells.


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## Nemo

Had the opportunity to see Kip's latest handles in person. Shape is really good, with a subtle taper. Nice feel in the hand. The spacer looks good and it is seamlessly integrated into the wood. Looking fwd to seeing what you can do with some fancy burls.

The blades attached to them were great. Pretty hamon on one. Very thin behind the edge. Super taper.


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## daveb

The phase where all new handle makers hang spacers and contrasts at both ends of the handle? 

You can skip that phase.:cool2:


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## Kippington

Actually yeah, that exact phase haha!

Simple is good, I will try keep it that way.


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## TEWNCfarms

Kippington said:


> Thanks for the choil shots of the laser, it looks to be in good shape.
> 
> In regards to the differing HT, I'd hate to get all technical (pfft! :laugh but the elasticity of steel is pretty much constant regardless of HT - So because the laser is ground thinner over the workhorse, the thicker workhorse will naturally feel more solid (although I ground the tip on that to be thin as well), the laser springier... and there's practically nothing I can do to change it.
> 
> Here's a different way of thinking of it: Many of us have seen videos out there of great bladesmiths displaying the strength and tenacity of their heat-treatment by locking their blade vertically in a vice and bending it 90 degrees without having it crack or delaminate:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet if you took a cheap filleting knife, there would be no issue at all in passing the same test due to how thin it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A workhorse style knife would feel like a crowbar in comparison to the springy laser. There's no way around it, not without beating physics anyway.
> In regards to the passaround, I think that the double concave thin-behind-the-edge knife feels awesome! :biggrin: It has a whispy feeling on the stones and a glidey feeling on the board, hard to describe but it feels great! I've always been a laser fanboy though...



So is it just how hard it feels or something? To tell the difference of heat treatment? And yeah Ive seen that thats crazy! Can you make knives that bend 90degrees? I saw an old CBS segment on Kramer and he took one of his knives he made in front of them and did the whole Masterbladesmith test and it still push cut through paper at the end! And he bent it 90 degrees and it just popped right back in place! I was blown away! Ive seen another guy do it for the MBS test and his knife didnt bend back... Kramer even cut the 2x4 in half and all the other stuff and it still push cut! I guess thats why his knives go for so much. Id be so afraid itd snap and shatter shrapnel in me


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## Dendrobatez

Kippington said:


> Would it be a bad idea to buy black wood stain and varnish for the ferrule?



Washing daily will cause the color to fade especially if you're changing the color dramatically. Better options would be to use a wood that's naturally the color you're looking for, buffalo horn blanks are cheap, or try your hand dyeing the wood while stabilizing with resin - costs about $150 to get into but the color sets in permanently. You could also char the wood shou sugi bon style which is good if you need something grippy


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## ashy2classy

Damn, Kip. These two are fantastic! If you ever get back up and running I'll be in line to get another!


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## TEWNCfarms

Dendrobatez said:


> Washing daily will cause the color to fade especially if you're changing the color dramatically. Better options would be to use a wood that's naturally the color you're looking for, buffalo horn blanks are cheap, or try your hand dyeing the wood while stabilizing with resin - costs about $150 to get into but the color sets in permanently. You could also char the wood shou sugi bon style which is good if you need something grippy



Hmm! I didnt know about all this. Theres So Much in making a knife!


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## HRC_64

I like the feel of horn on the bolster,
and the look of traditional magnolia.

It's a sort of minimalism/understated look
that suits a tradition with more focus on the blade.

edit: 

Dalman's handles are great modern
update without loosing the vibe,
suits also the region he's from


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## HRC_64

Whatever you do, please don't copy
neon-handles-to-go.


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## Kippington

Thanks for the advice everyone.
It's interesting that so many of you prefer the simpler handles. I thought it was the other way around.
Maybe it's a collector vs. user kind of thing.



TEWNCfarms said:


> I saw an old CBS segment on Kramer and he took one of his knives he made in front of them and did the whole Masterbladesmith test and it still push cut through paper at the end! And he bent it 90 degrees and it just popped right back in place! I was blown away!


At 2:15:

[video=youtube;-OCoS81G2CY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OCoS81G2CY[/video]

There's a reason it looks so different to his normal style of knife - It's a demonstration knife designed to pass those tests, a chefs knife with that much flexibility would be sucky. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad on a filleting knife or a bread knife.
I wouldn't be surprised if this could bend 90 degrees:






I reckon I could make a blade that could pass those tests too, but it's a waste of time for me to pursue unless I want to join the American Bladesmith Society.



HRC_64 said:


> Whatever you do, please don't copy
> neon-handles-to-go.



However would I find my knives in the dark? :laugh:


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## panda

put a glow in the dark pin with parrot logo on the butt of the handle


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## Nemo

Radium etched makers mark? [emoji6]


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## valgard

simple handles FTW. I love one piece handles. And at most ferrule and a spacer.


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## Dendrobatez

I put this on Instagram, panda said I should post it here too. Both knives blew through everything I threw at it.


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## panda

just wanted to reiterate how good the original kip handle was on this, grip felt amazing.


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## Kippington

Thanks man.
Now that I've had the opportunity to use stabilized wood in a few of my handles, I can say that as awesome as the stuff is, it doesn't have the same amazing feel as the more natural non-stabilized stuff.
IMO The biggest downfall of the non-stabilized stuff is that it gets stained in the kitchen so easily.


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## Gjackson98

Kippington said:


> Thanks man.
> Now that I've had the opportunity to use stabilized wood in a few of my handles, I can say that as awesome as the stuff is, it doesn't have the same amazing feel as the more natural non-stabilized stuff.
> IMO The biggest downfall of the non-stabilized stuff is that it gets stained in the kitchen so easily.



agree 100%


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## labor of love

panda said:


> just wanted to reiterate how good the original kip handle was on this, grip felt amazing.


Next time put a ferrule on it


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## Nemo

Kippington said:


> IMO The biggest downfall of the non-stabilized stuff is that it gets stained in the kitchen so easily.



In my home use, occasionally applying beeswax/parrafin mixture to your handle has prevented this.


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## Marek07

Nemo said:


> In my home use, occasionally applying beeswax/parrafin mixture to your handle has prevented this.


 *+1* *This!* I do this with all "simple" handles. Albeit, it's normally preceded by a few applications of mineral oil over a week before using board butter. Doesn't just avoid stains in the kitchen but all that slurry from stones as well.


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## refcast

When I get stone slurry/swarf stains on ho wood handles, I put a little olive oil on it and rub it in with my finger nail. The pressure pushes the oil into the wood and the oil suspends the swarf. I blot with a paper towel and most of it comes off. Of course, now the handle is oiled and darker, and they tend to be less rough and grippy than more raw ho wood. The pressure also makes the handle texture kind of burnished.


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## panda

yeah not a fan of stabilized woods for handles, and i dont mind the stains. texture/grip is everything when it comes to a tool not how cool it looks. hehe


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## Dendrobatez

I'm not a fan of stabilized woods unless it's a peice of punky wood I couldn't use otherwise. I prefer using polimerized walnut oil. Put the handle in a little baggie with the oil and let it absorbs as much as it can for a week then pull it out and let it cure for a day or so. The oil hardens and prevents the wood from drying out for long periods


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