# Need a Stone for Thinning



## mise_en_place (May 3, 2018)

Hello, everyone.

I'm definitely not on the up-and-up when it comes to the coolest stones (don't give a **** about finish, really), so I figure I'd ask what you guys recommend.

I need a stone to do some pretty significant thinning on one carbon clad cleaver, and then use the stone to regularly thin my other knives (largely carbon). Nothing in my current line-up is suitable for this task, so what should I get?

*Current line-up:*
DMT XXC
Amakusa Red 800x Natural Stone
King 1K/6K Combo 
Gesshin 1200 Splash and Go
Suehiro Rika 5K
Gesshin Synthetic Natural Finisher

As you may be able to tell, I prefer splash and go, but it's not a deal breaker. Diamond or synthetic is cool. Price range is around $100, but I'd be happier to spend less. Thanks for your suggestions.


----------



## Wdestate (May 3, 2018)

I use a 220 pink brick and a 320 shapton glass, the brick is far from splash and go and kinda dishes quick but I believe it was cheap and gets the job done (have had it forever). The shapton seems a lot slower for thinning but works well and is splash and go . There are probably much better but I have done some heavy thinning with those two


----------



## ob-gym (May 3, 2018)

Shapton Pro/"ha no kuromaku" 320 sells for $37 on Amazon. I wouldn't say it's the most pleasurable stone to use, but it's splash-and-go, dishes relatively slow for the grit, and just gets the job done for minimal $$.


----------



## Xenif (May 3, 2018)

Would like to see peoples experience/preference for thinning. Pink brick vs Shapton 320 vs Atoma 400 ?


----------



## HRC_64 (May 3, 2018)

For serious thinning, there have been a lot of recommendations for shapton pro 120,
but you'd need a another bridge stone to your 800/1000/1200 mid-grit.

This might make sense given the surface area on your cleaver.


----------



## panda (May 3, 2018)

I picked up. Shapton glass 220 for thinning and it's slow and dishes which is not good considering how thin the stone is. Shap pro 320 felt awful. Suehiro cerax 320 is good but I want something even faster that doesn't feel like death.


----------



## RDalman (May 3, 2018)

King deluxe 300. Especially if you have loose grit (sic 50-100 grit) and can open it often againt a flat (granite/tile/glass)
It's great on carbon. Esp clad. Less good on stainless. Hard and s&g


----------



## K813zra (May 3, 2018)

For light thinning, maintaining the grid with the edge I think about anything will do. I like my SP220 or my Pink brick 220. For thinning something that is already out of hand, all stones suck, imo. It is a slow and laborious project and about no stone or plate I have ever used feels fast enough. Kudos to the pros who do this for a living. I'd be all over a power tool in that case. But it is what it is and sometimes you just have to drop lower, in which case I use (very coarse) sanding belts cut up and tacked to wood. A tip I got from someone here but for the life of me I can not remember who. That kind of heavy lifting isn't something you should have to do often, if ever, if you keep up with your knives. For projects it is useful though.


----------



## Jovidah (May 3, 2018)

For a 100 dollars couldn't you get someone to do it for you?


----------



## HRC_64 (May 3, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> For a 100 dollars couldn't you get someone to do it for you?




LOL

/thread


----------



## StonedEdge (May 3, 2018)

Shapton Pro 320


----------



## galvaude (May 3, 2018)

I use the Imanishi 220 pink brick, it is fast but dishes fast. I follow it with the King Deluxe 300 as it isn't muddy and gets rid of the deeper scratches. The king stays flat and gives consistent lines so it evens out the work done on the pink brick.


----------



## mise_en_place (May 3, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> For a 100 dollars couldn't you get someone to do it for you?



Haha I said that because I'm woefully ignorant of what's really out there. I would like to have something so I can do the work in the future. 

I appreciate everybody's input so far, but I should have mentioned I really, really hated my experience with glass stones in the past. I can't imagine doing serious thinning on one. 



RDalman said:


> King deluxe 300. Especially if you have loose grit (sic 50-100 grit) and can open it often againt a flat (granite/tile/glass)
> It's great on carbon. Esp clad. Less good on stainless. Hard and s&g





Wdestate said:


> I use a 220 pink brick and a 320 shapton glass, the brick is far from splash and go and kinda dishes quick but I believe it was cheap and gets the job done (have had it forever). The shapton seems a lot slower for thinning but works well and is splash and go . There are probably much better but I have done some heavy thinning with those two



Will definitely look into the King 300 and the pink brick. 

Has anyone had experience with Gesshin's lower grit offerings?


----------



## K813zra (May 3, 2018)

Glass stones still feel better than a diamond plate.


----------



## mise_en_place (May 3, 2018)

K813zra said:


> Glass stones still feel better than a diamond plate.



That could be a more than fair general statement on diamond plates. I'm certainly not looking to throw down $400 to get a diamond plate that feels good.

Just saying that I loathe glass plates.


----------



## K813zra (May 3, 2018)

mise_en_place said:


> That could be a more than fair general statement on diamond plates. I'm certainly not looking to throw down $400 to get a diamond plate that feels good.
> 
> Just saying that I loathe glass plates.



I hear that. I am not in love with the glass stones either. I do like the 500 though.


----------



## swarth (May 3, 2018)

mise_en_place said:


> Has anyone had experience with Gesshin's lower grit offerings?



I have the Gesshin 400. I would give Jon's remarks in his description a solid A. Good feel. Fast. Scratches are consistent and not too deep. It does dish quickly. I am about half way thru the standard size brick after 16 months or so in my home kitchen.


----------



## masibu (May 3, 2018)

I used to have very aggressive thinning sessions and used a lot of different coarse stones in this process

-imanishi 220 pink brick
-norton india combo coarse/fine
-norton crystolon coarse
-shapton pro 120/220/320 (or whatever the 3 coarse stones are)
-king deluxe 300
-suehiro chemical 320
-extra coarse atoma and dmt diamond plates

I used other finer stones as well but wouldn't recommend them outside of general maintenance

For thinning down clad knives the india and crystolon stones were the fastest stones however you need to go HARD on the pressure (more than 3kg, you really cant go too hard on these stones), especially with wide contact areas involved with thinning. The problem with these stones is that the binder is so durable and resistant to breaking down that the grit can become worn down and create a burnishing effect (this is probably where the idea comes from that india stones are slow). By increasing the pressure you can encourage the stone to shed abrasive and continue cutting. The cladding on knives is much easier to cut than solid steel and so I found it was much easier to grind them down with these stones as I didn't need the insane pressures required as with "monosteel" knives. 

Both stones are dish resistant even at high pressures, the combo stone more so. My crystolon stone has a bit of dishing from lots of hard use although nothing like waterstones. I imagine it will be painful to bring back to true flat. I still use it as is without major problems. If you are more vigilant about keeping on top of that than i was it shouldn't pose an issue. The benefit of the crystolon is that I found it easier to release fresh abrasives than the india but could still put in quite a lot of pressure (more than 3kg). Both stones will reward you with fast results if you unleash the gorilla within you and go to town on clad blades. 

If the abrasibe stops cutting well on these stones you need to either up the pressure or create an abrasive affect by using loose coarse grit to condition the stone again. You can also use a trash soft stainless knife in a pinch (like the super market variety of knives) on the stone as the steel is very easily chewed up, resulting in fresh abrasives being released

The combo stone has the benefit of also having the fine side which is handy for setting crisp bevels. As the abrasives tend to wear down over time if you dont use much pressure ive found that the 300 grit to have about the same grinding speed as my 700 grit suehiro cerax without the same potential issues of dishing and also having the ability to go harder on the stone for really out of shape knives (usually someone else's knives). Thats not to say that the suehiro is a bad stone by any means though (its great for removing thinning scratches, general maintenance etc).

Theres the sigma power 120 grit stone as well which I assume is much like these 2 stones but I havent used it yet. Could be worth a look at as well.

If thinning down "monosteel blades" the india stones might prove to be a frustrating experience as the pressure needed is even higher than with clad blades (although they are fine for setting bevels). For this reason waterstones can be more efficient as its easier to release fresh abrasive. Its still pretty slow going though. Here's my general experiences with the water stones ive used:

The shapton pro 120 is pretty muddy and works pretty efficiently but leaves pretty big scratches. You will want to get a stone between that and your 1000 grit stones. I used to use this stone in tandem with extra coarse atoma plates. Id colour in where I was thinning and go to the plate to get an idea of how flat my stones were and where i needed to grind more. You can use just the diamond plate but you need to grind pretty light as the diamonds can be ripped out. The plates also lose that initial aggression easily and aren't a very economical choice for mass grinding. Another issue with the shapton though- it does wear pretty easily (its the only stone ive ever used up) so dont expect it to last a lifetime if you do a lot of heavy work.

The shapton pro 220 was a fair bit harder than the 120 grit but its hard to decide which one is more effective as you can go a little harder on this stone with the pressure but its a higher grit. The 320 grit is pretty muddy but better suited to maintaining knives as opposed to heavy grinding. You can polish the scratches out with the king 1000. Its probably about as efficient as the bester 500, maybe slightly faster.

The imanishi was softer than the shapton 220 which is a good thing as it means the stone is constantly cutting. However it can dish pretty easily, especially on clad knives. I played around with this stone a bit and even tried honing oil on it to see how that affected cutting speed. It seemed to slow down mud build up a little allowing more pressure to be applied but I don't reccommend it as i dont know what can happen over time if using oil long term on a waterstone. Slower than the shapton 120 but much bigger stone.

The suehiro was pretty hard, as is the king delux 300. They are similar performing stones although the suehiro needs soaking. The king is cheap and quite large and surprisingly dish resistant. The scratches can be taken out of either stone with a king 1000. Both stones are slower working than the pink brick and the coarser shapton pros but are good for general maintenance.

I have more info but i gotta run. So basically:
Clad knives- india stones
Monosteel- spapton pro 120 (but you will need another finer stone) or the king 300 if not doing massive grinding (could really go with any stone in the 300-500 range but this is probably the most economic choice)

Also want to point out that using sandpaper on a hard backing might be more efficient for thinning monosteel knives although i havent done a lot of it and not for a long time. You can get really coarse belts and just get new ones as they wear down instead of worrying about flatness. This is probably the approach ill take next time. You can pick up the sand paper reasonably cheap and pick up the king 300 to remove the scratches and to maintain the blades before jumping up to the 1000 grit stones. Chances are the ultra coarse stones wont see a lot of use anyway after the initial grinding is done and can this be easily maintained with the king and you still have coin to spare afterwards


----------



## K813zra (May 4, 2018)

mise_en_place said:


> Has anyone had experience with Gesshin's lower grit offerings?



Pink 220 is freaking thirsty and takes forever to dry back out, days. It doesn't feel like it because it feels dry on all surfaces but after two days if you set a paper on top and come back in a few hours the paper is wet. Found this out by setting my mail atop my stone days after having used it last. Water must stick in the middle. It is a fairly fast wearing stone as some say but I don't think it is unreasonable for its grit. It is a fairly good feeling stone with decent feedback for its grit level too. Also, it leaves a finish more in the 320-400(ish) range and can even make a jump to a fast mid grit without a medium coarse grit between. Overall it is a good stone.

The gesshin 400 is also a fairly thirsty stone. After a 30 minute soak I get little bubbles here and there for about another 15 minutes but it seems to work fine before fully saturated. Good feeling in use, fast, and good finish. Reminds me of a fast 1k, honestly. I like it but don't use it so much unless I have a chance to plan for a sharpening ahead of time. Does seem to dry out much faster, not in use but after, than the 220. IE it does not hold that water, that I have noticed anyway. 

I've not used any of the other low grit stones but every Geshin stone I have used I have also liked. They have all worked well and felt good in use. Jon seems to pick stones that I like in general, even naturals.


----------



## Dave Martell (May 4, 2018)

What was that coarse Suehiro (Cerax?) stone everyone was talking about last year? Super fast cutter & slow wearer.


Me, I'm using sandpaper on granite for my heavy hand work. :spiteful: I'm tired of all that coarse stone nonsense.


----------



## Juztian (May 4, 2018)

I use the JNS 300 stone it's pretty fast and doesn't dish much, also splash n go for under 50$.


----------



## K813zra (May 4, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> What was that coarse Suehiro (Cerax?) stone everyone was talking about last year? Super fast cutter & slow wearer.
> 
> 
> Me, I'm using sandpaper on granite for my heavy hand work. :spiteful: I'm tired of all that coarse stone nonsense.



Suehiro Chemical 320, maybe? I have the cerax 320 and it is a fast stone for a 320 but it sure doesn't wear slow. Never tried the chemical though.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (May 4, 2018)

For thinning, I use the Kasfly Sandpaper Holder:







http://www.knivesandstones.com/the-ultimate-sandpaper-holder-215mm-60mm-by-kasfly-czar-precision/


----------



## Xenif (May 4, 2018)

Dont know why I never considered the King 300 before, just added one to the cart along with a shapton 2k, what else should I buy for mothers day lol


----------



## brainsausage (May 4, 2018)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> For thinning, I use the Kasfly Sandpaper Holder:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats exactly what Ive wanted for years, thanks Rick!

Diamond stones feel like crap, but man do they get the work done if you dont care about aesthetics. I have one of Jons 400s and its basically a wafer now. Leaves a very consistent finish, feels nice to work on, builds good slurry, but dishes like crazy. I may have lost more stone bringing it back to true than in proper use...


----------



## HRC_64 (May 4, 2018)

brainsausage said:


> I may have lost more stone bringing it back to true than in proper use...



this adds up over time,
...and $$ wise as well


----------



## Nemo (May 4, 2018)

I found the Kasfly quite good. You do chew through a bit of sandpaper but at least you don't need to flatten it.


----------



## K813zra (May 4, 2018)

Nemo said:


> I found the Kasfly quite good. You do chew through a bit of sandpaper but at least you don't need to flatten it.



Man, the first time I saw that thing I thought it was silly. A few coarse stones later and I am not so sure I feel that way any more. Might have to consider one. Though I am plum out of project knives...a conundrum, eh?


----------



## Nemo (May 4, 2018)

K813zra said:


> Though I am plum out of project knives...a conundrum, eh?



I reckon this could be pretty easy to fix [emoji1]


----------



## K813zra (May 5, 2018)

Nemo said:


> I reckon this could be pretty easy to fix [emoji1]



Well, yeah.


----------



## Panamapeet (May 6, 2018)

Juztian said:


> I use the JNS 300 stone it's pretty fast and doesn't dish much, also splash n go for under 50$.



Doesnt dish much? We must be using a different stone lol...


----------

