# 250mm W2 Honyaki Gyuto



## Kippington (Oct 25, 2017)

My latest work and the best I've made yet! I'm considering knuckling down and actually polishing this puppy, something I would normally refuse to do. :laugh:







W2 steel hand-forged honyaki (metal plate insulators instead of clay).
250mm edge length, 56mm heel height.

I've managed to copy many of the qualities I consider 'high level' on gyutos made for performance. For example, the top and bottom of the handle meet up with the top and bottom of the emoto (knife neck).
Grind is a very subtle double concave to a convex spine, really hard to catch in a picture:






For my previous knife I got a lot of feedback that it was too fat and heavy. I've fixed the problem on this one by tapering the knife heavily in both length and in height:











I work in a commercial kitchen, and having the ability to take my creation to work is SO MUCH FUN! :lol2:
While its not yet polished, I'm finding it hard to pin-point areas in performance which I can improve.

I gotta go to work now, I'm gonna be late, but when I get back I'll go into more info on the heat treatment and performance - and maybe some videos! :biggrin:


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## Nemo (Oct 25, 2017)

Nice work Kippington. I'd love to see it when you've polished it.

Have you measured the hardness?


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## milkbaby (Oct 25, 2017)

That looks really nice! The distal taper looks on point, and a lot of people rave about the s-grind for food release and food separation. The convex spine should reduce the blade weight a bit depending on the convexity, but if you prefer more blade forward balance, you could consider leaving more meat up there.


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## turbochef422 (Oct 25, 2017)

Love the profile, taper, looks great. Really love the profile...did I say that already


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## labor of love (Oct 25, 2017)

Uhh yeah...I think its time for a pass around.


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## Marek07 (Oct 26, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Uhh yeah...I think its time for a pass around.


lus1: Definitely time to show others!
Looks great Jules. You've come a long way.


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## labor of love (Oct 26, 2017)

BTW, that other knife wasnt too fat and heavy for me, I really liked it a lot!


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## valgard (Oct 26, 2017)

I have to say that piece looks pretty impressive. Great job there.


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## ashy2classy (Oct 26, 2017)

Wowsa...great work!


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## Kippington (Oct 26, 2017)

Thanks heaps everyone!

Your kind words have convinced me to take the leap into 'hobbyist craftsman' and send this knife on a passaround! I could do with some feedback from a more critical crowd. Let me know if you want in on the action!


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## Marek07 (Oct 26, 2017)

Me! Me! Me! I want in *please*. 
(Did I say me?)


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## Nemo (Oct 27, 2017)

I'd also love to have a look at it.


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## Kippington (Oct 27, 2017)

You're in first Marek - Hell, you're that close I could throw it from here and hit you! :rofl2:

Then you're up next Nemo!



Nemo said:


> Have you measured the hardness?



Unfortunately I don't have any tools to measure hardness, and on top of that I use the rustic method of charcoal heat-treating by eye, so I have no idea what hardness it is other then to use old-school tricks like the brass rod test.

The cool thing about the heat-treat on this knife is that I wanted to try something different that, while not new to metallurgy, I've never seen anyone do to a blade. I took two mild steel plates and shaped them into roughly what a bladesmith would do with the thick layer of clay on a honyaki, like so:





Then I heated the knife up in a charcoal fire to about 800°C (outdoors because its a pretty big fire, and early morning while still dark so I could see the colors properly :knife. I placed the hot blade between the two metal plates like a sausage in a hotdog roll :razz: then quenched it while holding it in my hand - in water for a few seconds, then to oil.

[video=youtube;AHmKD9_F6ZU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHmKD9_F6ZU[/video]

The knife in this thread is the same one in the video (I heat treated after hand forging but before any grinding). And yeah the quench worked! The steel definitely has a hamon in the right place, I'm just too lazy to bother bringing it out!
This was a lot of fun to try, but holy ©@$# I took some hard knocks to get it right. A little bit of trial and a _whole_ lot of error. :shocked3:






At least now I can confidently say that I've done enough destructive testing to get a good sense of what we can and cannot expect a good knife steel to do! :lol2:


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## milkbaby (Oct 27, 2017)

Love that last pic! The school of hard knocks!

If you're not going to bring up the hamon, can't you use a fast engineered quench oil rather than water for W2?

Edited to add: I would really want in on the passaround just to see the knife in person, but in reality I'm too busy plus I'm in the USA. It's a bit sad, really...


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## Kippington (Oct 27, 2017)

milkbaby said:


> Love that last pic! The school of hard knocks!
> 
> If you're not going to bring up the hamon, can't you use a fast engineered quench oil rather than water for W2?



You're absolutely right! However, water is cheaper, more readily available and much easier to clean off a blade! :razz:
I wouldn't be using oil at all if I didn't feel I had to... but alas, here we are.

Who knows, maybe the hamon will come out in the natural patina? Thats what seems to have happened on my other one (the 1095).


BTW labor of love, your inbox is full!


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## orangehero (Oct 27, 2017)

Nice work I dig the profile!


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## Marek07 (Oct 27, 2017)

Kippington said:


> You're in first Marek - Hell, you're that close I could throw it from here and hit you! :rofl2:
> <<< _snip _>>>
> At least now I can confidently say that I've done enough destructive testing to get a good sense of what we can and cannot expect a good knife steel to do! :lol2:


 Excellent! Great to be first but please don't throw it my way. 250mm honyakis aren't designed for it. Come to think of it, I'm not much chop as a target... Easy to hit? Pretty much... but I bleed easily. :scared4:


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## Badgertooth (Oct 27, 2017)

Nice one mate! Does it want a trans-Tasman polishing?


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## Kippington (Oct 27, 2017)

Hell yeah Badgertooth, it would be an honor to send it your way, just for your opinion alone!

There's no need to polish it, its something I've never set my mind on. Even if you wanted to, how would you deal with the concave areas? This is a subtle question that pains me the more I think about it. :scared4:

Marek, yes you do bleed easy... off a Dalman and all over my kitchen bench! :razz:


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## RDalman (Oct 27, 2017)

That needs proper finishing!!!! Good work. I too have piles of broken blades hehe


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## fujiyama (Oct 27, 2017)

That distal taper is incredible. Nice blade all around. This one is worth polishing!


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## zitangy (Oct 27, 2017)

Hey after 7 tries... you nailed it. Well done. I like your creativity as to the metal template for the hamon line... More coming out??

I am sure you will figure it out how to polish it with a buffing wheel with the right abrasives and compound. Meanwhile, couldn't you do a quick dip in an etchant ; say a mild one... any cheap vinegar to see the outcome and color of the hamon line? On the White and blue steel ( Hitachi)... i wld expect a white hamon line and that indicates the right micro-structures underneath. Where as on the 52100, ( burke; 52100 steel) so far I hv seen a black line only. Will try to etch it further and see the outcome as a future project..

Respect... man... and rgds Z


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## xsmx13 (Oct 27, 2017)

Can blade #2 from the left be salvaged into a nakiri? Might still be something fun to play with! I just picked up an old old nakiri from an antique fair in Sacramento, Ca for $2.00. It has about a 1/3" chip in it, but it has a really tall blade height (65mm) so I wanna see if I can grind it down a bit and re-profile.


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## Badgertooth (Oct 27, 2017)

Kippington said:


> Hell yeah Badgertooth, it would be an honor to send it your way, just for your opinion alone!
> 
> There's no need to polish it, its something I've never set my mind on. Even if you wanted to, how would you deal with the concave areas? This is a subtle question that pains me the more I think about it. :scared4:
> 
> Marek, yes you do bleed easy... off a Dalman and all over my kitchen bench! :razz:



I'd establish a horizontal polish and use thin strips of balsa backed sandpaper to get there then I'd lean on my knifemaking friends to find out how the make W2 go pop! I suspect it involves etchants


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## Kippington (Oct 28, 2017)

Thanks Badger, I will send it your way after a couple of people try it in Australia, should be around a month away.

I was thinking of polishing it myself, however I recently got my first commission (woo! :biggrin so I'm gonna start working on this new project instead.
The thing about polishing is - as someone that works in a kitchen all day - I feel that a person will be less inclined to _*use*_ a knife for its intended purpose if it looks less like a tool and more like a work of art. Especially if it's a shiny carbon steel that will inevitably stain upon contact with food. Maybe I'm just making excuses for not spending time to finish it. :razz: And hey, I'll have to get into it at some stage if I want to get into the game of selling my stuff.



xsmx13 said:


> Can blade #2 from the left be salvaged into a nakiri? Might still be something fun to play with! I just picked up an old old nakiri from an antique fair in Sacramento, Ca for $2.00. It has about a 1/3" chip in it, but it has a really tall blade height (65mm) so I wanna see if I can grind it down a bit and re-profile.



On the 2nd from the left the steel was too thin for a quench, it warped like crazy in the water and is now pretty much trash.
Good score on the nakiri! It sounds like you can end up with a solid height of 56mm if you dont remove too much metal. Looks like a good project, the same kind of thing that eventually got me interested in forging my own knives.


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## TheCaptain (Oct 29, 2017)

Very excited for you and can't wait to see how this finishes! If you decide to ship to the states put me on the list.


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## merlijny2k (Oct 30, 2017)

I really agree with your sentiment there. Them Shuns and Miyabi's these days seem to be more at home on a wall or in a store display cabinet than on a kitchen counter. It's why I like Dan Premdergast's knives so much, and why I never bothered sanding out them last few scratches on knives I thinned. A super duper polish also greatly discourages thinning. I once did a pattern etch on a knife I gave to my wife. On hindsight I should have thinned better before finishing but now it's sorts of too late. A simple finish lets you tinker with your knife without getting the feeling bad. Fix a tiny chip, no problem. Want that tip slightly more agressive, done. Scratched the blade sharpening that really low angle? Just shrug it off and put that beast to work. I say stay strong with your convictions and make uncompromisingly usefull your strong point.


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## Kippington (Oct 30, 2017)

Thanks Capt and merlijn (this guy gets me! :laugh.
I'm gonna send it out on the passaround in the next couple of days. So far the list looks like this, let me know if something's wrong:


Marek (Aus)
Nemo (Aus)
malexthekid (Aus)
Badgertooth (NZ) 
labor of love (USA)
milkbaby (USA) (if not too busy?)
TheCaptain (USA)
If anyone else is interested, feel free to chime in!


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## Pensacola Tiger (Oct 30, 2017)

If there's still room, I'd like to be included.

Rick


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## Badgertooth (Oct 30, 2017)

Fantastic!


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## milkbaby (Oct 31, 2017)

Hey I see myself on the list but please let another usa forumite take my spot. I really am too busy unfortunately.


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## ashy2classy (Oct 31, 2017)

I'm in for the USA tour!

BTW, do you have an IG account? I want to track your progress from hobbyist to maker. :thumbsup:


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## Kippington (Nov 1, 2017)

Not a problem, the list currently looks like this:


Marek (Aus)
Nemo (Aus)
malexthekid (Aus)
Badgertooth (NZ) 
labor of love (USA)
TheCaptain (USA)
Pensacola Tiger (USA)
ashy2classy (USA)
I've allowed my fellow chefs at work to use my knife and its taken damage in the process! :bigeek:
My cheap handle has chipped:







And the tip of the knife has been "relocated":






Now I'm glad I didn't polish it! I need to spend every spare moment fixing this knife up before the weekend, when I send it off to Marek.

The good news is that I can see the grain of the steel through the broken tip and it looks very fine.
Also, the hamon is slowly coming out in the patina and it's in a very good spot, albeit very hard to see:






The restaurant I work at is getting crazy-busy. Hospitality is beginning to get hit by the silly season which is an absolute nightmare, not to mention the weather is warming up in Australia and people are starting to go out more.
Add to that, repairing this passaround knife and forging out my first commission...






It's time for me to knuckle down and get stuff done! :biggrin:


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## milkbaby (Nov 1, 2017)

First commission, woohooooooo! Congrats, pretty exciting stuff. :doublethumbsup:

Do you have access to a hardness tester? If not, might be worth finding a friendly person who does. I would be concerned that those insulator plates could be a big heat reservoir that keeps the edge from cooling fast enough for full conversion to martensite and full hardness.


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## Kippington (Nov 3, 2017)

Thanks! I'm really excited about this too! :jumpy:

I'm not too worried about hardness of the edge, for three reasons:
Firstly, the hamon is showing up exactly where I planned it to be which indicates decent control during cooling. Secondly, in previous picture that shows all the broken blades, after they cracked in the heat-treat I hit them _hard_ to knock out the hardened areas. You can see exactly where they blew out - the hardened area - and where they stayed intact - the soft area. Thirdly, there's a simple test of running a butchers steel down the edge like a file, then doing the same thing down the spine. The butchers steel slides off the edge as expected, but digs into the spine and catches it in a very obvious way.

There are more tests that I do to check the edge, and I'm sure that none of them amount to a Rockwell measurement, but I'm confident that this metal is ready for the passaround. I'd be happy to hear other people's opinions once they try it themselves. Who knows, maybe I'm completely wrong...

Is it hard to find people with a hardness tester?:nah:


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## merlijny2k (Nov 3, 2017)

Mechanical engineering department of any institution for higher education is sure to have one. Find the right person and they might be happy to put some student to work on it. Got to talk to the right people thoug to avoid it getting classified as an official commission because then it can be pretty expensive.


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## malexthekid (Nov 4, 2017)

I think some of the Aussie makers have one so you could reach out to them and see if they would be prepared to help a brother out.


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## Kippington (Nov 15, 2017)

Unfortunately I have some bad news about the passaround I offered a few weeks ago. 

A well meaning friend of mine has attempted to smooth out some small edge imperfections on a coarse stone and, as a result, unintentionally modified the grind and profile of my knife. The changes seem small at first, however through using the knife at work and seeing the difference first hand, I feel they are significant enough that the knife no longer represents something I'd be proud to display in a passaround.

The belly of the knife has been reduced significantly from my preferred gyuto profile. Here you can see it with the WIP sitting behind:






There is currently a very long dead flat spot:






And due to the belly being pushed up, the grind has become noticeably thicker behind the edge. The idea of the previous grind was to push my heat-treatment of the steel to close to breaking point in thickness - obviously this is no longer the case. This diagram is an exaggeration but it should help illustrate my point (concave grind on both sides):




If you've read through this thread you'd know, I favor performance over aesthetics. This knife was never 'pretty' to begin with, and now after this has happened I don't consider it to perform particularly well either. As such, I'm sorry to say that *this passaround will have to be delayed.*
I will either need to spend time fixing it (again! it is becoming much smaller...) or perhaps making a new one before I'd be willing to send a passaround out to the kind people that offered to give me feedback. Unfortunately I am very busy on my current WIP and... other life things. I feel I have to apologize for offering to send the knife out earlier this month. I'd still love to show my work to the kind people who are willing to try it, and so I will work hard to ensure a passaround gets sent out as soon as I can - with any luck, within the end of the month.

Sorry to everyone involved!


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## milkbaby (Nov 15, 2017)

Dang that's too bad... I would be kinda aggrieved that a friend thought a new knife should be thinned on a coarse stone.


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## merlijny2k (Nov 15, 2017)

Well I think youbdeserve credit for being open to not-knifepeople to become involved in your work and achievements rather than just preaching to the regular choir, valuable as that me be as well. Don't let this small mishap encourage you in the future and keep spreading the knife gospel far and wide.


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## malexthekid (Nov 17, 2017)

Dang that is sad news but no need to apologise after all you were the one doing the nice thing and putting it up for a passaround


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## Nemo (Nov 18, 2017)

Sorry to hear about the problem with thinning. Apololgies for the delay are not necessary. It was very good of you to offer the pass around in the first place. Take your time and let us know when you are happy with the knife (or its replacement) and ready to start the pass around.


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