# I think I’m going crazy



## FishmanDE (Mar 15, 2021)

So, one thing I set out to do during the pandemic was to become a good sharpener. At one point in the last year, I felt like I was. Now I sharpen, and no edge seems to satisfy me. Nothing feels “sharp” to me anymore. I’m either crazy or I’m doing something wrong. But every knife easily passes paper tests, no issues cutting food and my wife is afraid to use them as they are “disgustingly sharp”. Has anyone else experienced this?Have I just gotten used to it? Or is there a chance I can make them sharper?


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## Bear (Mar 15, 2021)

What are you finishing at, and how many passes? My edges start to get like that if I go too many passes on my fine stones, still sharp but no bite.


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## McMan (Mar 15, 2021)

Easy. Just means you need to buy more knives


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## ian (Mar 15, 2021)

It’s impossible to get a really satisfying edge off a synthetic stone. You really need to invest in a good natural stone. But be careful, as the budget ones won’t give you the edge you’re craving. This one looks ok, though.


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## Carl Kotte (Mar 15, 2021)

ian said:


> It’s impossible to get a really satisfying edge off a synthetic stone. You really need to invest in a good natural stone. But be careful, as the budget ones won’t give you the edge you’re craving. This one looks ok, though.


Dual grit edges?


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## FishmanDE (Mar 15, 2021)

Bear said:


> What are you finishing at, and how many passes? My edges start to get like that if I go too many passes on my fine stones, still sharp but no bite.



At most I finish at 6k. Maybe 3-4 passes each side. Generally I leave it at 2 or 4K so I don’t lose the bite.


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## FishmanDE (Mar 15, 2021)

ian said:


> It’s impossible to get a really satisfying edge off a synthetic stone. You really need to invest in a good natural stone. This one looks ok, though.



Assuming the first part of this was serious, what exactly should I look for? I tried to dip my toes into jnats and picked up an $80 one off of Togo, but I hardly use it (maybe I should try it more often).


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## FishmanDE (Mar 15, 2021)

Point worth noting i think, the B2 gihei I just traded was the only one that got “crazy sharp”. So maybe is the steel? Maybe of being to Brutish with my W2 guys?


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## KingShapton (Mar 15, 2021)

What stones do you finish on? In terms of grit? Do you use a strop on the stones? Loaded or unloaded?

What you are describing sounds like a very sharp edge with no bite. A high finish is good for razors, not so good for kitchen knives ...

And if I'm right with my assumption, then you can solve your problem without natural stones ...


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## ian (Mar 15, 2021)

FishmanDE said:


> Assuming the first part of this was serious, what exactly should I look for? I tried to dip my toes into jnats and picked up an $80 one off of Togo, but I hardly use it (maybe I should try it more often).



Sorry, the whole thing was a joke. I never do edges on jnats. Gesshin 4k and done for carbons. Strop on cardboard.

Seriously, your standards might be too high. Although if you can indicate some sort of specific quality that you want your edge to have that it doesn’t have, maybe we could help. If you really just want it to have some (imaginary) rapturous otherness, then it might actually help to buy the unicorn stone.


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## FishmanDE (Mar 15, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> What stones do you finish on? In terms of grit? Do you use a strop on the stones? Loaded or unloaded?
> 
> What you are describing sounds like a very sharp edge with no bite. A high finish is good for razors, not so good for kitchen knives ...
> 
> And if I'm right with my assumption, then you can solve your problem without natural stones ...



Yea, I definitely still have some bite, so I don’t think it’s an issue with over polishing. But maybe it is, as I’ve def applied too much pressure in the pst, so maybe on those few strips on the 6k I’m pressing too hard?


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## PappaG (Mar 15, 2021)

What knives (and steel type) are you sharpening that at one point felt very sharp, but no longer feel very sharp to you?


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## FishmanDE (Mar 15, 2021)

ian said:


> Sorry, the whole thing was a joke. I never do edges on jnats. Gesshin 4k and done for carbons. Strop on cardboard.
> 
> Seriously, your standards might be too high. Although if you can indicate some sort of specific quality that you want your edge to have that it doesn’t have, maybe we could help. If you really just want it to have some (imaginary) rapturous otherness, then it might actually help to buy the unicorn stone.


 
Lol, I though so but I didn’t want to offend. I think my standards might not match my skill level currently. I want to touch the edge and fear for my life, but at this point, I’ll settle for fear of losing a finger


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## FishmanDE (Mar 15, 2021)

PappaG said:


> What knives (and steel type) are you sharpening that at one point felt very sharp, but no longer feel very sharp to you?



Well, to be fair, they are the same knives. Earlier in the year, my blue 2 were getting very sharp, and since then, I’ve picked up a few new knives, the specific two in question being Mazaki (ku and migaki) and I just can’t seem to get them sharp. I though it might just be differences in steel, but now the takeda I have doesn’t feel sharp either.


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## FishmanDE (Mar 15, 2021)

Maybe my process is wrong. I go:

Shapton g 500 (build)
Shapton g 2k (deburr)
Either shapton 4K or king 6k (strop)


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## PappaG (Mar 15, 2021)

Interesting. My experience with Aogami Super is that it feels very sharp/toothy after a good sharpening session. For an experiment try stopping after the 500. Then next session stop after the 2k... just a thought.


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## Checkpure (Mar 15, 2021)

I think you'll need to come up with a better way to measure an edge. HHT, Bess Tester, Ripe Tomatoes, Free Standing Paper. I go two routes, Naniwa Pro 2k with mild stropping for an aggressively toothy edge or a zen sharpening session up to 12k that can do the silly tricks etc.


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## Delat (Mar 15, 2021)

Maybe you've sharpened so much it's time for thinning?


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## daveb (Mar 15, 2021)

*I think I’m going crazy...*

You're here and you're doubting this?


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## Barmoley (Mar 15, 2021)

daveb said:


> *I think I’m going crazy...*
> 
> You're here and you're doubting this?


Like.

I think most of us get there at times. If it cuts well and lasts a reasonable time then most likely it is all in your head. Your standards might be much higher now. There are very few edges that impress me anymore be it mine or other's whom are much better than me. Not to say that these edges are bad, they are excellent and cut food very well, but I don't get amazed anymore.


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## captaincaed (Mar 15, 2021)

I went through this 100%. At first you're happy you can make a dull object sharp. Then the goal posts change. Then you start chasing strops and jnats. Then you come back to your Gesshin 2k because you realize cutting pepper skins is more important then fish slices you can see your reflection in.


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## captaincaed (Mar 15, 2021)

Have you considered the HHT test? It's not a super useful edge, but if you do it clean (not a foil edge), it's a good validation of your skills. 

Also remember the paper towel test is often a function of stropping, not necessarily stones. Although 40 ounce seems to be the annoying exception. Dang, maybe I still have room to grow. And the cycle continues.


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## Towerguy (Mar 15, 2021)

FishmanDE said:


> So, one thing I set out to do during the pandemic was to become a good sharpener. At one point in the last year, I felt like I was. Now I sharpen, and no edge seems to satisfy me. Nothing feels “sharp” to me anymore. I’m either crazy or I’m doing something wrong. But every knife easily passes paper tests, no issues cutting food and my wife is afraid to use them as they are “disgustingly sharp”. Has anyone else experienced this?Have I just gotten used to it? Or is there a chance I can make them sharper?


Yes. Thats where I am now. My knives are sharp enough for the paper test and will shave hair off your arm, but they don't feel sharp using the 3 finger test.


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## captaincaed (Mar 15, 2021)

Towerguy said:


> Yes. Thats where I am now. My knives are sharp enough for the paper test and will shave hair off your arm, but they don't feel sharp using the 3 finger test.


What grit do you finish at? Are you stropping? Are your fingers calloussed from playing guitar or massaging cacti?


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## tgfencer (Mar 15, 2021)

FishmanDE said:


> Maybe my process is wrong. I go:
> 
> Shapton g 500 (build)
> Shapton g 2k (deburr)
> Either shapton 4K or king 6k (strop)



Honestly, Jon's 6k diamond has kinda blown my mind. And this if coming from a longstanding jnat guy who gets lovely edges from my stable of natural midgrits and finishing stones. The 6k diamond edge has great bite and yet still that hint of refinement for more slicing oriented tasks. I believe Jon described it as producing nearly the perfect edge for kitchen knives at one point in the past, though couldn't say if that still holds true. Not to say its the ultimate edge for every specialized occasion, but it can handle everything you throw at it in such a pleasing and aggressively silky way that I haven't found with many other stones.

Just a thought. Others may disagree, but it makes me feel something deep down, even when sharpening has been a bit numbing for me for a while now.


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## captaincaed (Mar 15, 2021)

That 6k diamond is very good


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## KingShapton (Mar 16, 2021)

FishmanDE said:


> Yea, I definitely still have some bite, so I don’t think it’s an issue with over polishing. But maybe it is, as I’ve def applied too much pressure in the pst, so maybe on those few strips on the 6k I’m pressing too hard?


I don't know if it could be that, but a lot of people here, including me, don't like the King 6K.

In contrast, the King 4K and 8K are highly valued in comparison. Maybe you should work without the King 6K for a while and see if something changes.

And as far as the pressure is concerned, at least for finishing, work with as little pressure as possible.


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## ModRQC (Mar 16, 2021)

Ok so I am not alone with this?

God man, why would you wait... aaaaah four months and a few days to make this thread?

Or did I?

Sorry to say, it can linger on for a while, despite anything proving to the contrary. 

To the point of deeply doubting yourself. You're better than I, sharing this as it comes, willing to bear with sufficient people possibly telling you you're a poor sharpener.

But then KKF answers, and as always, rekindles my love for this forum.

It is truly something? I need to make sure of this still. Sometimes I want to erase my brains and start anew with this... but keep the confidence... and moves... and making my choices to better stones for my purposes...

"Okay, so we'll take this finger, place it into a fiducial knives buying plan, grow it through a myriad off-shore makers, now it's time for making this hot ball gather some real money, investing in higher-end custom... AND IT'S GONE!"


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## M1k3 (Mar 16, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> I don't know if it could be that, but a lot of people here, including me, don't like the King 6K.
> 
> In contrast, the King 4K and 8K are highly valued in comparison. Maybe you should work without the King 6K for a while and see if something changes.
> 
> And as far as the pressure is concerned, at least for finishing, work with as little pressure as possible.



If the 6k side of my combo stone suddenly disappeared, I wouldn't miss it.


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## captaincaed (Mar 16, 2021)

The king 6k standard has two jobs in life
1. Keeping papers from blowing away
2. Disappointing its father

The 220 and 1k I've used are solid, no complaints


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## Todd762 (Mar 16, 2021)

I had the same thing happen to me. Step away from the stones for a few weeks. Chances are your “not sharp” are way sharper than you think! There for a period of time my wife would see me sharpening so often she thought an intervention would be necessary.


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## big_adventure (Mar 16, 2021)

As has been said, this seems like one or both of the two choices below:

1. Your standards have grown - what you used to think of as dangerously sharp is now just normal. This happens to everyone who sharpens, I assume. I used to use a soft euro-style chef's for weeks or months at home without really sharpening it. Now? I want to touch up an edge the instant I feel it's not capable of splitting covalent bonds by accident.

2. You might be over-polishing the edge. As has been stated, kitchen knives, in use, are just fine coming off a 3K or whatever. They are probably fine off of a 1K + newspaper strop, as long as your technique is good. 6k, 8k might be too smooth at the edge, and thing not biting as well.

Without a SEM, you aren't going to be sure about 2, but you can play around with what is getting you there. Do a round where you just use the 500. The next time, top out at 1k or 2K. Strop or don't. Use different materials for stropping. You'll figure out what feels best.

I have found that 3K + strop on leather is silly sharp enough yet still giving enough bite for me. I go to 6K with 2 gyutos that seem to "like" that, but other than that, the 6K is reserved for single bevels or "show off videos."


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## Delat (Mar 16, 2021)

I’ll know my knives are sharp enough when I can watch a @stringer chopping video without thinking, “holy crap his knives are sharp!”

Watched one of his videos last week. My knives are not sharp enough.


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## Kawa (Mar 17, 2021)

I recognize this.

For me it is/was 2 things: your standards will absolutely grow, faster then your skill after the beginning period. You want to continue that line of improving as fast as you did the first few months.

2nd
Watch if you are still as concentrated as you were in the beginning.
Having had some succes, you might take on the next knife with an different attitude: 'I got this now, it will be sharp in a short notice'.


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## Kawa (Mar 17, 2021)

Delat said:


> I’ll know my knives are sharp enough when I can watch a @stringer chopping video without thinking, “holy crap his knives are sharp!”
> 
> Watched one of his videos last week. My knives are not sharp enough.



You are among elite sharpeners around here.

Your and my stones will survive us. You are mentioning a player (and there are many many more on this forum) who actually *worn out* whetstones.
We probably only achieve that if we start to sharpen our sidewalk in front of our houses with that stone.


It is good to know what you can achieve over time with enough dedication.

It wouldnt be a fair/nice hobby if you reach the end-level in just a few months.

It's easy to learn how to sharpen your dull knife, might take you a dozen times/ few weeks to learn.
Then there is yeaaaaars to get as good as some around here, not going to mention names, wouldnt be fair to the ones I forget to mention.
Easy to learn, hard to master


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## captaincaed (Mar 17, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Watch if you are still as concentrated as you were in the beginning.
> Having had some succes, you might take on the next knife with an different attitude: 'I got this now, it will be sharp in a short notice'.


This is a great point


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## jwthaparc (Mar 18, 2021)

This is the phenomenon where when you first start something you think you are great at it, but as you slowly gain more knowledge of it you realize that you aren't as good as you thought. I forget the name of it. You can look at a graph that represents this as you get more knowledgable you doubt yourself more. 

Its funny how we are wired though isn't it?


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## DavidPF (Mar 18, 2021)

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves but wiser people are so full of doubts." 
-- Bertrand Russell

...so the basic idea has been around at least that long, probably much longer. But I'm pretty sure you mean the Dunning–Kruger effect.


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## Koop (Mar 18, 2021)

The learning curve is steep when you start. I try to look at it as a hill I can climb, but I can't run up it. As the curve flattens, it actually gets tougher - improvement comes in small, harder to define increments. But we keep learning!


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## DavidPF (Mar 18, 2021)

Koop said:


> improvement comes in small, harder to define increments.


Sometimes one of those seemingly random improvements or discoveries can push me off balance, and I treat it like I've found The Key To Everything. The longer it takes me to realize (for the _n_th time) "There is no Key To Everything, it's good that you learned something, now go back to work", the more I look around and hope no one was watching.


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## M1k3 (Mar 18, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> This is the phenomenon where when you first start something you think you are great at it, but as you slowly gain more knowledge of it you realize that you aren't as good as you thought. I forget the name of it. You can look at a graph that represents this as you get more knowledgable you doubt yourself more.
> 
> Its funny how we are wired though isn't it?


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## cotedupy (Mar 20, 2021)

Just go outside and find some random bits of stone on the ground. You won't be disappointed


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## branwell (Apr 19, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> I don't know if it could be that, but a lot of people here, including me, don't like the King 6K.
> In contrast, the King 4K and 8K are highly valued in comparison. Maybe you should work without the King 6K for a while and see if something changes.



Yea. I have the King 4K, 6K, and 8K. Both the 4k and 8K are beasts. Fast cutting and leave a keen but aggressive edge. The 6K on the other hand is lame. Its slow and the edge it leaves while keen, lacks aggression so if I don't use it to create hybrid edges where I can keep the aggression from the previous stone..... Anyhows, I like the 4K and 8K so much I'm going to see if I can get another 6K to see if the one I have is from a bad batch or something.


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## KingShapton (Apr 19, 2021)

branwell said:


> Yea. I have the King 4K, 6K, and 8K. Both the 4k and 8K are beasts. Fast cutting and leave a keen but aggressive edge. The 6K on the other hand is lame. Its slow and the edge it leaves while keen, lacks aggression so if I don't use it to create hybrid edges where I can keep the aggression from the previous stone..... Anyhows, I like the 4K and 8K so much I'm going to see if I can get another 6K to see if the one I have is from a bad batch or something.


Go ahead and do the test, but I can't imagine we all got the same bad batch.


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## captaincaed (Apr 19, 2021)

I don't think it's a bad batch. Mine was 4+ years old.
I think there's something like a King 6k KDS that's meant to be better than the base model. Anyone had any luck with these?


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## M1k3 (Apr 19, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I don't think it's a bad batch. Mine was 4+ years old.
> I think there's something like a King 6k KDS that's meant to be better than the base model. Anyone had any luck with these?


If by KDS you're also including the combo, the 6k side is meh. Forgettable. Would not miss if it was abducted by aliens.


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## captaincaed (Apr 19, 2021)

Yeah, forget about the King 6k, don't need to adhere strictly to brand across the board


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## Mr.Wizard (Apr 19, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Your and my stones will survive us. You are mentioning a player (and there are many many more on this forum) who actually *worn out* whetstones.
> We probably only achieve that if we start to sharpen our sidewalk in front of our houses with that stone.



IF that's the entry price for this club just buy a Cerax 320 and watch it wear away as fast as a pencil eraser.


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## M1k3 (Apr 19, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> IF that's the entry price for this club just buy a Cerax 320 and watch it wear away as fast as a pencil eraser.


"Hold my beer!" - Naniwa Super Stone 220


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## Kawa (Apr 20, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> "Hold my beer!" - Naniwa Super Stone 220



Haha yes, got this one in a combo stone aswell (220/1000), first stone ever.
It is actually quite worn and I'm sure it would have been vanished by now if I didnt get myself a shapton pro 220 along the way.


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## jwthaparc (Apr 22, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> "Hold my beer!" - Naniwa Super Stone 220


Wow something wears faster than the cerax 320


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## M1k3 (Apr 22, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Wow something wears faster than the cerax 320


There's also the ubiquitous holy pink brick also


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## Bigbbaillie (Apr 22, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Wow something wears faster than the cerax 320


Haven't used the cerax 320, but my naniwa traditional 220 wears away like chalk.


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