# Recommend Natural stone lineup



## turbochef422 (Jan 16, 2017)

Looking for a Natural Stone lineup for mostly double bevels and like a toothy edge finish. Don't want to spend more than $150-$200 per stone but less would be better. Looking to work on my stone game this year. Thanks


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## zoze (Jan 16, 2017)

Based on my limited experience: Ikarashi, Aizu, Tsushima.


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## TheCaptain (Jan 16, 2017)

If you're willing to think outside the box a bit I highly recommend some Thai stones.

Miles is a joy to work with and bends over backwards to offer outstanding customer service.

[email protected] 

I got three freaking huge stones for about $200 all in including shipping from Hawaii to Chicago, IL - USA.

Thai Orange Binsui (about 800 grit)
Thai White Binsui (about 1200 grit)
Khao Men (finer maybe 2500-3000 grit)

The fact that the stones are freaking huge is a major plus to newbies because your inexperienced hands will have more room to work with. I stubbornly ignored all the excellent advice here and started on my german stainless steel knives rather than my good Japanese knives. Took some trial and error but I was able to get edges on those old knives far superior to any our electric sharpener could provide. After that, touching up good Japanese knives was comparatively easy.

I'm pretty new to this also, three months ago I didn't own one stone so take what I say with a grain of salt. The Thai stones were some of my first and still the ones I go back to when I'm having trouble getting a knife to take an edge.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 16, 2017)

The natural i most use for a toothy finish is a muddy Kouzaki aoto. It works very well on aeb-l.


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## Matus (Jan 16, 2017)

You can go up to about 1000 with synthetics and then get an Ikarashi followed by a not too hard Uchigumori. Aotos wary so much (from soft, muddy and coarse to hard finishers - I have both ends of that spectrum) that you really need to test a given particular stone to get an idea. You really do not need more than 2 stones if you go with synthetics up to about 1k and probably could manage with just one.


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## panda (Jan 16, 2017)

just get one of the aizu from watanabe and use it as a finisher, it should be around 3-4k. if you want refined but still toothy - hakka. i havent tried one but i suspect takashima would be right at home for gyuto finisher (chinacats has one for sale right now fyi)


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## K813zra (Jan 16, 2017)

I have a handful of stones now (Omura, Aoto, Monzento, Tajima, Tsushima and Yaginoshima Asagi) and typically use Aoto/Tajima. Somewhere around 1k and 2k respectively, maybe a little coarse on both stones. I just ordered Ikarashi and Aizu from Watanabe and he feels that combo will be superior but advised me that Aizu is a difficult stone to use. 

Now, I have not used those two stones yet as they are in transit but I have been given good advice each time I ordered from Mr. Watanabe.


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## toddnmd (Feb 28, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I have a handful of stones now (Omura, Aoto, Monzento, Tajima, Tsushima and Yaginoshima Asagi) and typically use Aoto/Tajima. Somewhere around 1k and 2k respectively, maybe a little coarse on both stones. I just ordered Ikarashi and Aizu from Watanabe and he feels that combo will be superior but advised me that Aizu is a difficult stone to use.
> 
> Now, I have not used those two stones yet as they are in transit but I have been given good advice each time I ordered from Mr. Watanabe.



Any additional comments after using these stones?


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## fatboylim (Feb 28, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> If you're willing to think outside the box a bit I highly recommend some Thai stones.
> 
> Miles is a joy to work with and bends over backwards to offer outstanding customer service.
> 
> ...



+1 to what she said  

Also, I added a Aiiwatani to finish and a dry stop on a Arashiyama 6000 to touch up for a toothy edge.

Note, best to mention the knives and steel you intend to sharpen. The Thai natural stones work particularly well on full carbon knives with soft cladding.


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## K813zra (Feb 28, 2017)

toddnmd said:


> Any additional comments after using these stones?



I have a few dozen sharpening sessions with both stones now and I like them well enough. Both are fairly fast cutting stones, the Ikarashi more so than the Aizu. Actually I have two Aizu. The first one, the one I purchased is is a rather large stone and the second is a smaller stone that Mr Watanabe sent as a gift. I will give you a little feedback on all three. 

Ikarashi: This is a fast cutting stone for a natural, a fast cutting stone in general. I have heard many call this a natural 1k replacement but I don't know that I can agree with that, at least not with my particular stone. If pressed to put a number on it I would say it is closer to 1500-2000 in edge quality and cuts at about the speed as my shapton glass 2000. I would say that it is middle of the road in hardness compared to my other mid range naturals. Not as hard as Aizu but there is no fear of gouging it. It does not release a lot of slurry and what it does release is almost transparent with a slight milky hue. As such the metal swarf looks like it is suspended in water. This stone works well on all steels that I have tried thus far (all basic carbon and stainless) but is a monster metal remover for softer stainless. There is a lot of tactile feedback, you know where your edge is and what it is doing but it does have a bit of a scratchy feel. Audible feedback is quite clear as well, this stone makes a low pitch sound as if you are writing on a chalkboard. A warm, responsive sound that lets you know that something is being done, I find it enjoyable. Visually you can see swarf from the first stroke, which is nice as well. No misconceptions with this stone, it simply tells you what it is doing from the get go.

Aizu (Large): This is the hardest mid range stone that I have, which is odd as it was described as a soft stone. Soft it is not! This stone was described as hard to use but I really have not experienced that. This stone is also a fairly quick cutter and you can see metal swarf almost instantly. If compared to synthetics I would say it finishes somewhere around 3-4k but closer to 3k and abrades steel at about the same rate. This stone releases very little slurry, even if you thin behind the edge for ages. As such I find that using a nagura or a diamond plate is quite useful. It releases an odd color mud that starts off as white but has a hint of a brown rust like color. The mud itself feels very slick and the stone drys out a lot faster with mud than it does without. Nevertheless I like to raise a mud because it aids with feedback and sadly that is one area where this stone lacks. As I said, it is a hard stone and is very precise but you have to do your part as it is a bit harder to tell just where the edge is at until you get a read on the stone. It still feels much better than many synthetic stones. The stone feels different on one end vs the other. One end of the stone has a ton of renge, the other has less and has this pretty brown spot that looks like a river. The browner side is slower and seems finer and the side with renge is much faster and feels coarser. Almost like two stones in one. It does have a slight bit of a gritty feeling yet has a bit of a glassy feeling like a harder finisher. It does not make much sound, just enough to tell you where the edge is and what it is doing. So, if one finds it hard to read the stone by feel then they can do so by sound. Visually the stone shows swarf well and quickly. It works well with stainless and carbon. 

Aizu (Small): This is one of my favorite stones. It has little in common with its larger sibling. The stone is much softer, a fair bit faster and slightly coarser. I would say this one finishes closer to the 2-3k range. Closer to 3k in finish but 2k in rate of abrasion. Much like Ikarashi, you get metal swarf from the first stroke. This one has some elasticity to it, you can almost feel the stone give way under your edge if you push down. This one does not like to release slurry either and a nagura, tomo or diamond is quite useful but not as needed as with the larger stone. The mud on this one is milky white and thicker but does not dry up as fast. The stone is white until you get it wet and it turns a light green color with shades of baby blue. Tactile feeling and feedback on this one is amazing. It has a feeling like rubbing together two pieces of wet chalk. (I guess whether or not that is a good feeling is subjective as I have heard people use a chalky feeling as a negative.) Not a lot of noise on this one, just enough to know when you are on or off your angle. Visually, swarf is easy to see and shows up quickly. 

All of these stones work well on both stainless and carbon but I like the Ikarashi better for stainless and both Aizu better for carbon. All three of these stones will leave you with an edge that has more bite than their synthetic counterparts and that bite seems to last longer on the board as well. I would not say that the edge lasts longer than with synthetics but rather the tooth/bite does. It is quite difficult to compare naturals to synthetics as a general rule. A stone might cut like a 2k, leave a cosmetic finish like a 4k, the refinement of a 2k and the bite of a 1k. It really is hard to explain. 

One thing I can tell you about most of these middle stones is that while they work well they are not as efficient as synthetic stones. They are however, much more of a joy to use. So if you have a few extra minutes per stone then it is no worry. None of the above give me that zen feel like I get from a soft Aoto but they are fun to use and more enjoyable than any synthetic that I have ever owned. 

As an aside, sorry if I could have organized and broken that up better. I just woke up and my head is not screwed on quite right just yet.:clown:


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## Badgertooth (Mar 1, 2017)

Synth up to 1k 
Then Aizu. 

And uchigumori if you want to go finer. Uchi is wildly inconsistent though so buy from someone who knows their onions and can describe it to you


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## XooMG (Mar 1, 2017)

Interesting suggestions. Good luck with the progression.


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