# Any Ultimatum m390 reports?



## scott6452 (Nov 15, 2012)

Anybody have any opinions on these? Only reason that i ask is that i have said knife and feel that it lacks "fall through food" performance. Infact, its really tough to cut hard veg with. With swede, squash etc i have to use really alot of force with lots of horrible wedging noises. I can even feel resistance when slicing peppers. As a result i have really hardly used this knife which is a shame as the weight and profile feels great.

I'm hoping that other users have had similar problems and solutions to this.


----------



## Zwiefel (Nov 15, 2012)

Is there anything that falls through Swede? We just made some for dinner a couple of nights ago....my watanabe had a heck of a time with it...I was worried about using a Suisin IH on it at all.


----------



## scott6452 (Nov 15, 2012)

Well i would use the infamous kato as an example but i think theres enough mystery around that one already! Possibly bad example with swede. Things like cutting potato, it is noticibly tougher than any other knife i own including the house globals.


----------



## TB_London (Nov 15, 2012)

Any chance of a pic from behind the heel to see the grind?
The fix would be thinning, but with the hardness and abrasion resistance it'd be slow work without power.
Other than the wedging how do you find it?


----------



## tk59 (Nov 15, 2012)

I find think knives like the IH easily cut through "wedgie" tough objects. I haven't cut a swede though. I guess I can go do that tonight. I didn't think M390 was all that bad to grind, at least on diamond plates.


----------



## scott6452 (Nov 15, 2012)

Phew getting a spine shot to work with an iphone is tough work! Anyway:







Just took another of tanaka for comparison:






So it does look like there could be some thinning needed? Quick question, how long would you expect to take to get the major work out of the way on a knife like this. I am not intimidated by such a task but get easily bored and disheartened. If i had a rough timescale hopefully that could keep me motivated!

TB, other that that it is a really quality piece. No f&f complaints. My favourite feature of the knife is the crazy thin tip. It makes things like meat trimming really easy. Unfortunatly due to the main issue, ive not had a chance to stretch its legs as far as the steel goes.


----------



## tk59 (Nov 15, 2012)

scott6452 said:


> ...So it does look like there could be some thinning needed? Quick question, how long would you expect to take to get the major work out of the way on a knife like this. I am not intimidated by such a task but get easily bored and disheartened. If i had a rough timescale hopefully that could keep me motivated!...


That is a fattie, alright. Looks like several hours to me. What would you be grinding it on?


----------



## scott6452 (Nov 15, 2012)

Several hours :scared4: Mind you, the sheer satisfaction afterwords i suppose! It would be a 140ish diamond plate for the heavy work.


----------



## tk59 (Nov 15, 2012)

Haha. Well, maybe you can try it out a little to gauge the effect the diamond plate has on the metal and then decide if it's worth your trouble. If not, then you'll have to send it off or use power tools.


----------



## Dave Martell (Nov 15, 2012)

Like I said recently in another thread, these Lamson made (Addict, Artifex, Ultimatum, etc) knives are VERY thick. They need a lot of work to perform at the level that most people here (that's users not loving Henckels) are hoping to score with a purchase.


----------



## Lefty (Nov 15, 2012)

I think the convex thing is getting carried away. Convexing is near impossible on super thin, and you get one or the other. There is, however a certain level of "stiction" that should be tolerated, in my mind. If it doesn't get in the way of the performance, some is acceptable. It's not like we're frying eggs on the side of our blades, or anything.


----------



## ecchef (Nov 15, 2012)

:goodpost:lus1:


----------



## EdipisReks (Nov 15, 2012)

Lefty said:


> I think the convex thing is getting carried away. Convexing is near impossible on super thin, and you get one or the other. There is, however a certain level of "stiction" that should be tolerated, in my mind. If it doesn't get in the way of the performance, some is acceptable. It's not like we're frying eggs on the side of our blades, or anything.



with certain knives, like my Shig, i convex the flats while flat grinding the edge portion. that gets you a thin edge with low sticktion. it's still a compromise, though.


----------



## Lefty (Nov 15, 2012)

Yup, what you do makes sense. You thin the blade "where it matters" by forgetting about convex grinds on that portion. However, the only way to convex the cm or so directly behind the edge is to make it thick behind the edge. Of course, by flat grinding, you now get stiction on julienned carrots, etc, but not full potato slices, as a result of convexing higher up. A thin, small piece of carrot is better than half a russet, but it's still stiction. To have none whatsoever would, in my opinion kill cutting performance.

It's almost like how a year ago, you couldn't go too thin, until a freakishly talented Del Ealy proved that yes, in fact, you can.


----------



## bieniek (Nov 16, 2012)

scott6452 said:


> Phew getting a spine shot to work with an iphone is tough work! Anyway:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow that is a thick bastard. I wouldnt even bother with diamond. Send it for pro machine job. 
I would say it will take you two days - expect to get bored after an hour or so:whistling:
Its those kind of projects I hate. Always take too long.


----------



## RobinW (Nov 16, 2012)

Given the m390, that looks like a machine job to me.

I also very much agree with leftys opinion on the balance between convexing (and by doing that being rewarded food release on the cost of sticktion) and thinness (and being rewarded "fall through food" by loosing some food release)


----------



## dmccurtis (Nov 16, 2012)

That's sharpening in a nutshell. Balancing desirable performance characteristics with undesirable performance characteristics.


----------



## scott6452 (Nov 16, 2012)

Ok thanks all for advice. The next question...does anybody know who offers this service in uk or even Europe?! Sounds ridiculous but I really can't think of anybody!

I'm sure maxim doesn't do international(not sure if he even offers this kind of major thinning thing anyway). Hopefully there will be someone that "knows a guy" :doublethumbsup:


----------



## Lefty (Nov 16, 2012)

It's a long shot, but I wonder if Will C. might do it for you.


----------



## franzb69 (Nov 16, 2012)

you might wanna check out ken ********'s video on it on youtube.

[video=youtube;dpZjPUAffZI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpZjPUAffZI[/video]


----------



## RobinW (Nov 16, 2012)

Technically Will can for sure do it. Question is if he works on other makers knives.
Ohhh, and he has a lot of work until christmas as well. Or at least until my knife is ready he should be focusing on that:whistling:


----------



## Lefty (Nov 16, 2012)

There is the Norwegian....


----------



## hax9215 (Nov 16, 2012)

Excuse my ignorance, but when you say "swede" I think of a busty stripper; while my heaver cleaver would definately go through one I cannot imagine doing it. ???

Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!


----------



## ajhuff (Nov 16, 2012)

hax9215 said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but when you say "swede" I think of a busty stripper; while my heaver cleaver would definately go through one I cannot imagine doing it. ???
> 
> Hax the Cook CLEAVERS RULE!!!



+1

-AJ


----------



## scott6452 (Nov 16, 2012)

I would call it "turnip" but now I have an old Bulgarian stripper with a boil on her nose and the beginnings of a fine beard :laugh:


----------



## mainaman (Nov 16, 2012)

franzb69 said:


> you might wanna check out ken ********'s video on it on youtube.
> 
> [video=youtube;dpZjPUAffZI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpZjPUAffZI[/video]


I think that would be a mistake.


----------



## mainaman (Nov 16, 2012)

scott6452 said:


> I would call it "turnip" but now I have an old Bulgarian stripper with a boil on her nose and the beginnings of a fine beard :laugh:


I am a Bulgarian , now I am not offended by your comment, but I can bet you anything, you will be really surprised how beautiful Bulgarian girls are. I have seen a lot more ugliness in other parts of the world


----------



## Lefty (Nov 16, 2012)

But can you fix his knife???


----------



## scott6452 (Nov 16, 2012)

Yeh I have first hand Bulgarian beauty experience! There's no such thing as an ugly country so I had to think of an ugly sounding country name. I think (since we are describing a woman) it's the relation to "bulge":lol2:


----------



## Vertigo (Nov 16, 2012)

franzb69 said:


> you might wanna check out ken ********'s video on it on youtube.


----------



## chinacats (Nov 16, 2012)

mainaman said:


> I think that would be a mistake.



+1...k.s. is a freaking nutjob, whatever you do, do not send that man your knife!


----------



## wsfarrell (Nov 16, 2012)

franzb69 said:


> you might wanna check out ken ********'s video on it on youtube.
> 
> "You can see there are some scratches on the blade. We'll take care of those later."
> 
> Or not.


----------



## Lefty (Nov 16, 2012)

I want his tools


----------



## EdipisReks (Nov 16, 2012)

scott6452 said:


> I would call it "turnip" but now I have an old Bulgarian stripper with a boil on her nose and the beginnings of a fine beard :laugh:



rutabaga is what they are called where i am.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Nov 16, 2012)

EdipisReks said:


> rutabaga is what they are called where i am.



A common confusion, especailly north of the Mason-Dixon line. I grew up in New York and my mother called rutabagas turnips. I didn't learn the difference until I moved to Pensacola. They are not the same.

1.Rutabagas are bigger than turnips.
2.Since Palaeolithic times, turnips have been a staple food in many parts of the world. Rutabaga is an 18th century invention, which is a cross between a turnip and a cabbage.
3.While the turnips come white-fleshed, rutabagas are yellow-fleshed
4.While the flesh of turnips remain whitish after cooked, the rutabagas changes to yellowish-orange after cooking
5.While turnips come with 20 chromosomes, the rutabagas have 38 chromosomes

Rutabaga:







Turnip:


----------



## maxim (Nov 16, 2012)

haha cool thread and end up with Kens video :lol2:

I do thinning jobs and internationals but not on that kind of knives, i have handled couple of knife from them and its not something i will do again better to buy new knife


----------



## Lefty (Nov 16, 2012)

That seems a bit harsh.


----------



## chinacats (Nov 16, 2012)

Harsh yes, but why buy a knife that immediately needs work to be a cutter? Too many quality knives available that have nice geometry, cost less, and function better than the Lamson 'projects,' unless of course it is a project you are looking to find. And yes, I realize that many here would be bored without a good project.


----------



## Dave Martell (Nov 16, 2012)

franzb69 said:


> you might wanna check out ken ********'s video on it on youtube.
> 
> [video=youtube;dpZjPUAffZI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpZjPUAffZI[/video]




This video _HAS_ to be a joke because I can't stop laughing!!! :rofl:


----------



## scott6452 (Nov 16, 2012)

Hmmm I'm increasingly thinking that this is going to be exactly that, a "project". Il have a go on the old diamond. Even if I try half an hour a day. I think if the steel wasn't so intriguing I would simply resign it to a drawer.


----------



## EdipisReks (Nov 16, 2012)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> A common confusion, especailly north of the Mason-Dixon line. I grew up in New York and my mother called rutabagas turnips. I didn't learn the difference until I moved to Pensacola. They are not the same.
> 
> 1.Rutabagas are bigger than turnips.
> 2.Since Palaeolithic times, turnips have been a staple food in many parts of the world. Rutabaga is an 18th century invention, which is a cross between a turnip and a cabbage.
> ...



i wasn't clear: where i am, a swede is called a rutabaga. a turnip is called a turnip.


----------



## Lefty (Nov 16, 2012)

I just think that we're going away from the actual issue, which is taking an already purchased Ultimatum and helping the owner get the knife he was hoping to get. 

We all know they're fatties, with a one track grind (convex is king), but how do we get the knife to where it should be, performance-wise. The owner bought the knife believing he was getting one thing and upon arrival, discovered it not to meet his standards. The two options are: return it; get it fixed by someone willing to do it. So, who here, in this awesome, giving community will take the project? Don't worry, you won't catch Lamsonitis from doing it.


----------



## Timthebeaver (Nov 16, 2012)

$250 for a knife that, from looking at that pathetic grind, cuts like crap. No thanks. Whats the point in using the latest super mega ultra unobtainium super steel if the final product is a dog.


----------



## Dave Martell (Nov 16, 2012)

This is all my opinion only...

The Lamson project knives appear to use the formula of good steel = knife sales and this (as we've seen) obviously holds true to some degree but unfortunately for the end user good steel &#8800; a good knife. 

If the contractor of these knives can find a competent knifemaker to re-profile, re-grind, and re-sharpen these knives then they'd (maybe) have a winner here. As they sit now they're only half way done for what users at our level will expect.


----------



## Don Nguyen (Nov 16, 2012)

franzb69 said:


> you might wanna check out ken ********'s video on it on youtube.
> 
> [video=youtube;dpZjPUAffZI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpZjPUAffZI[/video]



Maybe I'm crazy, but using his hand as a platen, gloves or not (arguably more dangerous with the glove), does NOT sound like a good idea. I've seen a belt cut deep into flesh before, WITH a glove.

EDIT: Just noticed he did the same thing later without the glove.


----------



## Vertigo (Nov 16, 2012)

Timthebeaver said:


> Whats the point in using the latest super mega ultra unobtainium super steel if the final product is a dog.


Because by and large people buy keywords and reputation and popularity, not products. 

It doesn't matter if your product is a steaming heap of horse crap: slap the word organic on it, or show people Rachael Ray eating it by the spoonful (Yum-O!), and it'll fly off the shelves. If unobtanium is popular amongst your customer base and you can find a way to bring it to them cheap, it doesn't matter if the final product is a dog. They're still going to buy it.


----------



## scott6452 (Nov 16, 2012)

Thanks for trying lefty 

I'm still on the fence with this, returning isn't an option as I've scratched up the knife already to test thinning speed. If there's someone out there who has the skills and equipment and wants to see what they can do with this, I may just give them the knife as in current state, I will never be using it anyway.


----------



## Miles (Nov 16, 2012)

I don't think you're crazy, Don. I think he's been lucky so far in not doing any significant damage to himself. Cool grinder, though.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Nov 16, 2012)

EdipisReks said:


> i wasn't clear: where i am, a swede is called a rutabaga. a turnip is called a turnip.



Next up, sweet potatoes vs yams. :justkidding:


----------



## Lefty (Nov 16, 2012)

Tempting, Scott...very tempting.


----------



## EdipisReks (Nov 16, 2012)

scott6452 said:


> Thanks for trying lefty
> 
> I'm still on the fence with this, returning isn't an option as I've scratched up the knife already to test thinning speed. If there's someone out there who has the skills and equipment and wants to see what they can do with this, I may just give them the knife as in current state, I will never be using it anyway.



Hell, I'd take it, and would post updates of the project here.


----------



## Lefty (Nov 16, 2012)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Next up, sweet potatoes vs yams. :justkidding:



This is why people should just eat normal foods, like capsicum, bison, and marmalade.


----------



## EdipisReks (Nov 16, 2012)

EdipisReks said:


> Hell, I'd take it, and would post updates of the project here.



On second thought, I'm not sure I want to wear out my diamond plates.


----------



## James (Nov 16, 2012)

I don't think you should lose hope on the knife. It really doesn't need THAT much thinning work. My TKC is probably 1.5x as thick as the tanaka and still performs very well.


----------



## Don Nguyen (Nov 16, 2012)

How are these made? Are they machined in quantity or does someone actually grind them? I'm actually pretty curious.

It does look like there's a good amount of material behind the edge.


----------



## maxim (Nov 16, 2012)

sorry if it sound harsh, but i think wear out your 100 USD diamond plate and stones, is just not worth it, or pay extra to send it out to somebody els that will use bunch of time on it.
Then there is a risk that you will mess all up in the end, and trow it into garbage anyway :scared4:
If it was cheap knife, softer steel, soft cladding etc. then it will be fun project  
But full hardened knife for 250 USD, its better to buy 2 mm plate in same steel and start to make your own grind


----------



## Zwiefel (Nov 16, 2012)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Next up, sweet potatoes vs yams. :justkidding:



Hint: Yams are extremely rare in north america.
Hint2: if it weighs less than 5lbs, it's probably a sweet potato


----------



## mainaman (Nov 16, 2012)

Don Nguyen said:


> Maybe I'm crazy, but using his hand as a platen, gloves or not (arguably more dangerous with the glove), does NOT sound like a good idea. I've seen a belt cut deep into flesh before, WITH a glove.
> 
> EDIT: Just noticed he did the same thing later without the glove.


Boneheaded moves is Ken's natural state


----------



## tk59 (Nov 16, 2012)

mainaman said:


> Boneheaded moves is Ken's natural state


His handiwork is...interesting.


----------



## stevenStefano (Nov 16, 2012)

To be honest it sounds like you're throwing good money after bad. Did you have to pay much Import Fees and all that stuff? Other than that, what about sending it to one of Ken's minions? Maybe they'll be determined to prove you wrong and thin it for you


----------



## scott6452 (Nov 16, 2012)

Ok, good news. One of our fellow members has very kindly offered to give this knife a...makeover?! not sure of the proper name! But anyway the main thing is that hope remains for this blade! This forum is really great.


----------



## Johnny.B.Good (Nov 16, 2012)

Hope it works out for you...

Please let us know if the "makeover" is a success!


----------



## cclin (Nov 16, 2012)

scott6452 said:


> Ok, good news. One of our fellow members has very kindly offered to give this knife a...makeover?! not sure of the proper name! But anyway the main thing is that hope remains for this blade! This forum is really great.



congratulation!! make sure take some pics before send it out for "makeover"; therefore, you can post some "before & after" pics on KKF!


----------



## Justin0505 (Nov 16, 2012)

Just found this thread, sorry I missed it, but I'm glad that it sounds like it will all worked out in the end. 

People get really dramatic about how "OMG HORRIBLE THROW IT AWAY!!!!!!" some knives are. I think that Dave actually put it most plainly, logically an free of emotion (did you draw blood biting your tongue?). It's just a knife that's incomplete / not finished to the (very high) standards of the members of this community. 

What's in debate here is how much work actually needs to go into it. I'd call it pot of coffee and an album or 2 of tunes worth of work. I reviewed / test drove some of the earlier cm and cpm 154 Lamson "project" knives and found that it really didn't take all that much to get them into shape. This steel is supposedly tougher, and the grind does look a bit thicker, but I really don't think that it would be much of a problem for diamond plate or some emery cloth(if you're worried about hurting your diamond plate...lol). 

I would have been happy to do this just for the chance to help out a fellow forum member / knut, play with a new knife /steel and have and excuse to put off other responsibilities and goof around on the stone for and few hours. 

A big +1 to Lefty and the few guys that actually tried to offer helpful advise and didn't just use it as a chance to one again air their personal feelings towards a mfg/company via negative comments on a thread by a guy just asking for help. 

I hope that the mystery make-over artist and the owner both update with pics and comments on the project.


----------



## DevinT (Nov 16, 2012)

Who knows what brand those belts are in the video? Diamond belts are mega expensive and wont last with out water.

Hoss


----------



## JBroida (Nov 16, 2012)

3m diamond maybe?


----------



## DevinT (Nov 16, 2012)

That's what I thought.

Hoss


----------



## ajhuff (Nov 16, 2012)

Lefty said:


> I just think that we're going away from the actual issue, which is taking an already purchased Ultimatum and helping the owner get the knife he was hoping to get.
> 
> We all know they're fatties, with a one track grind (convex is king), but how do we get the knife to where it should be, performance-wise. The owner bought the knife believing he was getting one thing and upon arrival, discovered it not to meet his standards. The two options are: return it; get it fixed by someone willing to do it. So, who here, in this awesome, giving community will take the project? Don't worry, you won't catch Lamsonitis from doing it.



I just wanted to say, ^this kind of attitude^ I love love love. This is the attitude that put a man on the moon, broke the sound barrier, made a plane fly etc. Wish I saw more can do spirit and less can't do spirit in this world. As I used to tell some employees, "Stop telling me what you CAN'T do and START telling me what you CAN do!"

-AJ


----------



## tk59 (Nov 16, 2012)

ajhuff said:


> I just wanted to say, ^this kind of attitude^ I love love love. This is the attitude that put a man on the moon, broke the sound barrier, made a plane fly etc. Wish I saw more can do spirit and less can't do spirit in this world. As I used to tell some employees, "Stop telling me what you CAN'T do and START telling me what you CAN do!"
> 
> -AJ



Not that Tom isn't a great guy but all he did was ask for volunteers.


----------



## ajhuff (Nov 17, 2012)

tk59 said:


> Not that Tom isn't a great guy but all he did was ask for volunteers.



Whatever. His comment just resonated with me.

-AJ


----------



## scotchef38 (Nov 17, 2012)

Should have called a Neep and so how much confusion that causes.


----------



## allumirati (Nov 17, 2012)

I little off topic here I have had the 210mm artifex version of the m390. I tell you that steel is beastly. I haven't tried other ultramodern steels. But comapred to the A-type it's way harder to grind. And Dave is right those babies are thick which wasn't what I was expecting. 180 grit ********, 220 grit glassstone, 120 grit DMT doesn't touch this stuff. Only thing I got to thin this stuff is 80 grit norton blaze belt. So moral of the story is: crazy steel needs crazy grinding belt. I got mine as thin as anything and that's the only way I take them. It's not the prettiest job but it cuts like crazy. The edge retention is stupid. But when it comes to doing a heavy resharpening you really have to go there too. So in this steel you really have to go thin or you'll drive yourself nuts just trying to sharpen it when it needs it.


----------



## franzb69 (Nov 17, 2012)

looks like this isn't the steel for me. lol. i'll stick with my regular stainless and carbon steels.


----------



## Lefty (Nov 17, 2012)

Yup. Again...getting carried away. To date, the two stainless blades that have made me happiest are S35VN, which is surprisingly sharpenable, and a tie between the regular old Moly steel Misono uses and AEB-L. Both get frighteningly sharp, and I get phenomenal cutting performance with them. 

Again, there should be a balance between sharpenability and edge holding. One thing I've never understood with guys like us is, why do we want the best edge retention humanly possible, when we all enjoy pushing the sharpness limits and actually using our stones? If it gets you through a couple shifts, shouldn't that be good enough?


----------



## stevenStefano (Nov 17, 2012)

Lefty said:


> Again, there should be a balance between sharpenability and edge holding. One thing I've never understood with guys like us is, why do we want the best edge retention humanly possible, when we all enjoy pushing the sharpness limits and actually using our stones? If it gets you through a couple shifts, shouldn't that be good enough?



Well I wouldn't say everyone likes sharpening and a lot of pro guys have very little free time. I'd happily sacrifice a bit of sharpness for edge retention, 3 weeks is usually how often I sharpen. To me it sounds like the M390 is a little too far. After this mystery man with too many diamond plates has finished his work, it will also be interesting to see how easily maintained the knife is for a long period of time.


----------



## ajhuff (Nov 17, 2012)

stevenStefano said:


> Well I wouldn't say everyone likes sharpening and a lot of pro guys have very little free time. I'd happily sacrifice a bit of sharpness for edge retention, 3 weeks is usually how often I sharpen. To me it sounds like the M390 is a little too far. After this mystery man with too many diamond plates has finished his work, it will also be interesting to see how easily maintained the knife is for a long period of time.



+1

-AJ


----------



## Don Nguyen (Nov 17, 2012)

What's M390 comparable to? I've actually never seen it used any where else before.


----------



## tk59 (Nov 17, 2012)

M390 is just supposed to be really wear resistant, pm "stainless" steel. Lot's of chromium and about 2% carbon and prob a bunch of other carbide formers. I've only used/sharpened it once in a limited way and I didn't think there was anything amazing about it.


----------



## franzb69 (Nov 17, 2012)

i just don't wanna get to the point where i'd have to get a platen just to sharpen up a blade coz stones can't cut anymore. i should try s35vn and aebl soon. if only money, cost of shipping, and exorbitant taxation wasn't a problem.

my first carbon knife was an aritsugu (main house, not the branch from tokyo), and i loved it then it's a vintage old hickory 10" chef knife, a little soft but very nice to play around with.

if lefty says s35vn is pretty good then that convinces me further to wanna try it out. i know aeb-l is awesome.


----------



## K-Fed (Nov 17, 2012)

ajhuff said:


> +1
> 
> -AJ



+2


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Nov 17, 2012)

Lefty said:


> Yup. Again...getting carried away. To date, the two stainless blades that have made me happiest are S35VN, which is surprisingly sharpenable, and a tie between the regular old Moly steel Misono uses and AEB-L. Both get frighteningly sharp, and I get phenomenal cutting performance with them.
> 
> Again, there should be a balance between sharpenability and edge holding. One thing I've never understood with guys like us is, why do we want the best edge retention humanly possible, when we all enjoy pushing the sharpness limits and actually using our stones? If it gets you through a couple shifts, shouldn't that be good enough?



I agree so far my favorite stainless(In my limited experience)are S35VN & AEB-L.I must admit I have not tried some of the quality semi stainlesss out there.To me ease of sharpening is a big factor,thats why I like white steel carbon so much,OK I like blue steel alot as well.

I repect some persons who can sharpen M-390 & like it's edge retention.I found it kind of a pain in the [email protected]! to put a polished convex edge on my spyderco I had to go to my diamond plates.Looking at that thick M-390 Gyuto no thanks


----------



## DevinT (Nov 17, 2012)

M390 is an alloy made by several PM producers. Bohler makes M390, Carpenter makes 204P, Crucible makes 20CV, all are very close in composition. The alloy has 20% chrome and 4% vanadium, 1.9%C, 1% moly, .60 W and a splash of Si and Mn. This is a proven knife steel even though it can be hard to sharpen.

Hoss


----------



## stevenStefano (Nov 17, 2012)

Would you say perhaps the issue here is that the M390 is usually used in smaller non-kitchen knives which are quicker to sharpen so they are worth the hassle of them being hard to sharpen?


----------



## DevinT (Nov 17, 2012)

It does make a great EDC.

Hoss


----------



## allumirati (Nov 19, 2012)

Just a little update on the artifex. Since I've been using this blade I had one incident where I was in a pinch cutting something frozen and got a huge chip out of the blade unlike anything I've seen. So very very thin and very very hard blade cutting something very hard is definately not good. Since then I fixed the chip on the grinder and had a fun time re-thinning the knife and in the end put more belly on the blade which I'm not happy about. Anyway this steel is the first that I've tried even with bad sharpening has virtually NO edge rolling, but it's also brittle if you abuse it. Just to give you an idea how the steel works. I think a thin nakiri chopping through tons of veggies would be phenomenal in this steel.


----------



## franzb69 (Nov 20, 2012)

you could have talked to mark about it and maybe he could have it replaced or something.


----------



## EdipisReks (Nov 20, 2012)

cutting frozen food with a gyuto is generally going to be a bad idea.


----------



## allumirati (Nov 25, 2012)

EdipisReks said:


> cutting frozen food with a gyuto is generally going to be a bad idea.



:surrendar:


----------



## James (Dec 10, 2012)

I just wanted to give my 2 cents, as I've recently had some experience thinning an m390 artifex. I used a cheap diamond plate and a bester 500; the bester 500 is definitely (somehow) the faster route. The steel itself isn't too terrible to grind down; it feels just slightly more wear resistant than zdp189. Sharpening wise, it's interesting. I set the bevels with the bester and then went to my togiharu combo stone (1k/4k) and up to my takenoko 8k. On the stones (even diamond) besides the bester, the steel feels very much like glass. It'll slide across the stone without losing much steel. Quite a time investment sharpening the stuff, but if it lives up to its reputation, I shouldn't have to go through sharpening very often.


----------



## tk59 (Dec 10, 2012)

I sharpened M390 on a Gesshin 1k, 5k and 1 micron diamond with no problems. The edge is relatively poor in terms of refinement but it is suitably toothy and aggressive. Unfortunately, I can't bear to use the knife enough to really get a feel for the edge retention.


----------



## Lefty (Dec 11, 2012)

Sharpening is part of the hobby for many of us. Taking that out of the equation removes some of the fun , and that kinda sucks! For the pro chef who hates sharpening, or has no time to do so, I understand the fascination, but for anyone else...meh.


----------



## James (Dec 11, 2012)

Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy sharpening. This steel, however, makes it quite a bit less fun.


----------



## panda (Dec 11, 2012)

is the steel prone to chipping? if it has extra heft, it kind of defeats the purpose if you have to be really careful how you use it. was originally interested in this due to the size and potential edge retention.

re: sharpening, i'm in a pro environment and HATE sharpening, it's a chore not therapeutic.


----------



## rdm_magic (Dec 11, 2012)

For someone who CBA to read 10 pages; summary?!


----------



## ajhuff (Dec 11, 2012)

panda said:


> is the steel prone to chipping? if it has extra heft, it kind of defeats the purpose if you have to be really careful how you use it. was originally interested in this due to the size and potential edge retention.
> 
> re: sharpening, i'm in a pro environment and HATE sharpening, it's a chore not therapeutic.



+100

-AJ


----------



## jmforge (Dec 12, 2012)

Someone mentioned that all of the knives made by Lamson tend to run thick. From the pictures, it looked like the stock was thick to start with compared to the other knife, not just the area behind the edge. Could it be that the Berger CNC grinders cannot handle the thinner stock? I don't know about the "skinny" M390, but I do know that I can get Elmax stock in the thicker sizes from Bohler-Uddehom in about any flavor I want. They have 5 different sizes just in the .148 to .236 range alone.


----------



## James (Dec 12, 2012)

The artifex on the whole seems a tiny bit thinner than the ultimatum, but significantly thicker behind the edge. *******, I think you're definitely right about them using thicker stock; the tang is probably just as thick, if not thicker, than my old henckels pro s 8".

WRT chipping, I haven't used it enough to tell. Judging by reviews of the steel in non-culinary applications, it isn't very chippy. Those folks are dealing with significantly thicker edges than we are, but hopefully m390 is just as resilient in knives with very slim geometries.


----------



## jmforge (Dec 12, 2012)

I haven't looked into M390 that much, but the impression that I got was that in the B-U lineup, it is their super wear resistant (and super pricy) PM stainless that has better abrasion resistance and higher hardness than Elmax, but perhaps not the toughness (apparently few good stainless steels are that tough) or a more "carbon steel like" behavior on the stones like you hear people talk about with Elmax, CTS-XHP and S35VN sometimes..


----------



## JBroida (Dec 12, 2012)

i just spent a lot of time with a 19c27 version and to say it was thick (BOTH behind the edge and at the spine) would be an understatement. I spent almost 4 hours getting it into better shape.

I also want to mention that i had some customers in to test side by side feelings in sharping between the 19c27 ultimatum and suisin inox honyaki and we came to the conclusion that the HT's are very very different.


----------



## maxim (Dec 12, 2012)

JBroida said:


> I spent almost 4 hours getting it into better shape.


And thats why i will not take this knives  Time spend on them is just not worth it


----------



## jmforge (Dec 12, 2012)

JBroida said:


> I also want to mention that i had some customers in to test side by side feelings in sharping between the 19c27 ultimatum and suisin inox honyaki and we came to the conclusion that the HT's are very very different.


 Interesting because if the heat treat on the Ultimatum is being done by the folks in Rhode Island that Lamson referred me to, it could have been done in high temp salt pots to whatever specs they chose.


----------



## JBroida (Dec 12, 2012)

just hitting the same hrc doesnt equal the same properties... i see a lot of knives in the same steel at the same hrc that act differently


----------



## jmforge (Dec 12, 2012)

JBroida said:


> just hitting the same hrc doesnt equal the same properties... i see a lot of knives in the same steel at the same hrc that act differently


Jon, if all of those knives were heat treated by pros who actually know what they are doing, I would suspect that any difference might be the result of someone trying to save a buck or two. There aren't really any super secret heat treatment recipes out their for most commonly available steels, but some methods are a bit more time consuming and costly than the old standard " get it hot then get it wet" technique. :biggrin:


----------



## JBroida (Dec 12, 2012)

for the most part i agree, but there are a number of things different between the US and Japan with regard to this. Moreover, there can be differences in initial quenching, tempering, etc., that can yield the same hrc, but act differently.

For example, take Devins aeb-l heat treatment versus other aeb-l heat treatments. I've sharpened and used a few, and even at the same hrc, they are different.


----------



## DevinT (Dec 13, 2012)

The secret to heat treating is the quench. You must quench in the urine of a red headed holy man.

Hoss


----------



## Lefty (Dec 13, 2012)

Conan O'Brien....


----------



## DevinT (Dec 13, 2012)

LOL


----------



## NO ChoP! (Dec 13, 2012)

What color patina does this cause?


----------



## Lefty (Dec 13, 2012)

That depends on how much Guinness he consumed the night before.


----------



## Twistington (Dec 13, 2012)

Lefty said:


> That depends on how much Guinness he consumed the night before.



Any funky smells when cutting cabbage with a blade that is Conan-quench?


----------



## Lefty (Dec 13, 2012)

I should also point out, Devin, correct me if I'm wrong, that the "Conan Quench" is used primarily on AEB-L - a stainless steel used in razors and fine cutlery. Because of the type of steel, virtually no reactivity occurs, whether they be smell or otherwise. However, when used on carbon steels, such as 52100, initially there can be a smell similar to "burnt orange and persimmon", which many fund quite appealing.


----------

