# Butcher knife Question



## Hager (Sep 7, 2017)

To start move this post if this in the wrong forum.
Well I'm not a chef, Im a butcher in a small locker and have been for 16 years and my primary job is cutting stakes and roast. I've always used a Victorinox cimeter/scimitar 10" knife every few years the boss buys me a knew one. It about time for a new one and I was think about buying myself a nice bade. What would be the Japanese equivalent to the cimeter? By the way I don't know much when it comes to the knife world!


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## bkultra (Sep 7, 2017)

Welcome to the forums


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## StonedEdge (Sep 7, 2017)

Welcome! 

Does your employer allow carbon blades or stainless only for butchering? Same question regarding western handles (sealed with bolsters) vs Japanese wooden/horn handles?

You will want a steel that isn't too brittle as to chip or dullen quickly if it runs against bone once in a while. 

Do you refresh the edge on your scimitar with a honing steel in between cuts? Are you looking to be able to do that with the new knife? Or are you looking for a much longer lasting edge that you'll touch up using a stone or strop when the need arises?

I unfortunately can't offer any knife suggestions at this point.

Following this thread as deer season is about to start and a good quality Japanese butcher/scimitar would make a nice addition to the kit.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 7, 2017)

Japanese-style knives get you hard steel and edge/grind asymmetry. 
Its not clear either of those are as great a benefit to butchery as to other uses.

Once you are down into 58 hrc to allow for bone and steeling the blade, 
you are basically at the same level as mass produced western knives.

Without geometry or hardness benefits, than blade profile become the biggest decision variable.
Curved blade cimeter and bullnose shapes have their fans for very good reason, IMHO.

Many people prefer western boning shapes, and the japanese shapes are no direct substitute.


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## Hager (Sep 7, 2017)

Thanks
Blade material doesn't matter no wood handles per health inspector
I steel my knife often I keep it sharp enough I can shave with it!


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## Hager (Sep 7, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Many people prefer western boning shapes, and the japanese shapes are no direct substitute.


What knife blade styles are used for this purpose?


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## StonedEdge (Sep 7, 2017)

Just a thought, not sure what kind of budget you have in mind for this blade but maybe you could go the custom route? Get a maker to make you a scimitar with a blade profile and shape you're used to but with a better steel than a run of the mill Victorinox, Forschner or Dexter?


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## Hager (Sep 7, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Just a thought, not sure what kind of budget you have in mind for this blade but maybe you could go the custom route? Get a maker to make you a scimitar with a blade profile and shape you're used to but with a better steel than a run of the mill Victorinox, Forschner or Dexter?


Any suggestions on a maker I would want to stay under 300 but you never know?


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## StonedEdge (Sep 7, 2017)

Hager said:


> Any suggestions on a maker I would want to stay under 300 but you never know?


Again, I can't offer any recommendations sadly, having never ordered a custom knife I would be talking out of my arse. 

You're located in the US? I'm sure others here can come up with a fairly long list of recommended custom makers.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 7, 2017)

Hager said:


> What knife blade styles are used for this purpose?



This gives an overview of different shapes of non-western blades. 
For the most part, the Japanese knives are historically focused on cutting fish and vegetables.
They have some other options but none are (obvious) improvements on western designs.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/blogs/news/japanese-butchery-knives-shapes-and-functions


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## HRC_64 (Sep 7, 2017)

Quick rundown (others, can of course add their own personal views)

1) The deba was really designed for breaking down pelagic fish; 
the two-bevel version (ryo-deba) rates only as a passable butchers shape.
2) The gyuto is a hisorically a meat cutter, but is another derivative profile, 
and not an ideal butchery shape (ie, a sabatier chef).
contemporary gyuto grinds that are fashionable on KKF (==very thin behind edge) 
are further away from design intent of the original knife also
3) The hanging-meat boning knife is too short to do the work of a cimeter (so needw paired with a gyuto or suji)
4) skinning and similar/curved blade alternatives have limited advantages, if any, to western versions.

My butchers knifes are all purchased to take abuse
and do cuts the chef/gyuto won't do as well.


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## daveb (Sep 7, 2017)

Don't think there is an Japanese equivalent to most of the western butchery knives.

Haburn and Marko will produce customs but are priced beyond your 300. Butch Harner makes a nice butcher or bull nose that he sells for about 350. Don't know if he does a Cimitar but wouldn't hurt to ask. FWIW I find a bull nose to be more useful than a scimitar when making big pieces into little pieces.

Of the nicer blades I've found the advantage to be the harder, thinner, steel. Of course that can quickly become a disadvantage when working around bones or frozen product. And they probably would not take to steeling well. The VNox or Wustie Pro may be a pretty optimized solution for a butcher or scimitar. If you want a "special" knife there are some boning knives that are nice and won't break the bank.

Deer season is almost here. Gotta dust off that kit.


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## Hager (Sep 7, 2017)

if not japanese are there any high quality manufacturer of Scimitar. I want something fun not just a work knife


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## daveb (Sep 7, 2017)

Check out Marko's offerings. I don't use mine often but it's effing Kewl!

There are a couple shown here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/6734-Knives-Available-for-Sale/page101


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## nastyfatdave (Sep 7, 2017)

Hager said:


> if not japanese are there any high quality manufacturer of Scimitar. I want something fun not just a work knife



I worked in a whole animal butcher shop for a little while. Other than the Ittinomon and 
Munetoshi butcher knives (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/munetoshi-kurouchi-210mm-wa-slicer/), I've not really seen Japanese equivalents to Western butcher knives. 
I haven't used either of them, however. 

Every one I worked with either used F Dick or Victorinox rosewood handle or old American carbon, a la Foster Bros, Goodell, or Dexter. I personally use a carbon Dexter boning knife and a Foster Bros breaking knife/cimitar. The foster bros is beautiful, as far as I'm concerned, and you can find them in varying degrees of wear and priciness on eBay, or in refurbished and facelifted versions at places like Upbeatvintage on Instagram


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## fimbulvetr (Sep 9, 2017)

I use a 210mm Munetoshi slicer that I rehandled with burnt chestnut as a big boning knife/short cimeter. It's a brilliant solution for me since I'm seaming one minute and portioning steaks the next in a totally inadequate space AND it's fun and it's a conversation piece if I'm cutting in front of customers. If you're willing to rehandle yourself with a non-wood or sealed wood alternative, it might work. 

It's the one on the bottom: https://instagram.com/p/BTPhFKdll7A/


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## NO ChoP! (Sep 10, 2017)

Why not find a vintage carbon and have it rehandled?


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## JohnnyChance (Sep 10, 2017)

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/rinkaku-semi-stainless-150mm-hankotsu

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...roducts/rinkaku-semi-stainless-270mm-sujihiki

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...a-270mm-stainless-wa-sujihiki-takobiki-hybrid


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## naifu (Sep 10, 2017)

Hager said:


> To start move this post if this in the wrong forum.
> Well I'm not a chef, Im a butcher in a small locker and have been for 16 years and my primary job is cutting stakes and roast. I've always used a Victorinox cimeter/scimitar 10" knife every few years the boss buys me a knew one. It about time for a new one and I was think about buying myself a nice bade. What would be the Japanese equivalent to the cimeter? By the way I don't know much when it comes to the knife world!



I'm no knife expert but I have used a Victorinox 10 inch breaking knife for a variety of tasks over 25 years. My gut feeling based on my experience and your background (butcher for 16 years, Victorinox cimeter/scimar 10", etc.) is to go with what has been working for you for the last 16 years. If you need to scratch your itch for a Japanese chef knife, then buy one for home use but don't use it on meats with bones. Probably nothing is tougher and more appropriate than your Victorinox knife and that is why you can use it day in and day out for years. If you can keep that shaving sharp (I tip my hat to you), then that sounds like the perfect knife for your occupation.


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## DarkStar (Sep 10, 2017)

daveb said:


> Butch Harner makes a nice butcher or bull nose that he sells for about 350.









No idea what this goes for but... sweeeet


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## daveb (Sep 10, 2017)

Butch makes some nice ones


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## nevrknow (Sep 10, 2017)

Hager said:


> Thanks
> Blade material doesn't matter no wood handles per health inspector
> I steel my knife often I keep it sharp enough I can shave with it!



Not being in the food industry myself, would an inspector allow stabilized wood handles considering they become plastic filled ( my words no one else's ) ?


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## Hager (Sep 10, 2017)

fimbulvetr said:


> I use a 210mm Munetoshi slicer that I rehandled with burnt chestnut as a big boning knife/short cimeter. It's a brilliant solution for me since I'm seaming one minute and portioning steaks the next in a totally inadequate space AND it's fun and it's a conversation piece if I'm cutting in front of customers. If you're willing to rehandle yourself with a non-wood or sealed wood alternative, it might work.
> 
> It's the one on the bottom: https://instagram.com/p/BTPhFKdll7A/



Look nice anything this style I would have to get use to and rehandle but definitely an option.


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## Hager (Sep 10, 2017)

JohnnyChance said:


> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/rinkaku-semi-stainless-150mm-hankotsu
> 
> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...roducts/rinkaku-semi-stainless-270mm-sujihiki
> 
> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...a-270mm-stainless-wa-sujihiki-takobiki-hybrid



GESSHIN GINGA I will have to get rehandled but I like the blade


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## Hager (Sep 10, 2017)

DarkStar said:


> No idea what this goes for but... sweeeet



Yes


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## StonedEdge (Sep 10, 2017)

The Harner bullnoses also look awesome


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## HRC_64 (Sep 10, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> The Harner bullnoses also look awesome



I had to google it...






Those look nice. 
wonder if that bullnose is 10 inches, 
or shorter maybe?


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## dough (Sep 10, 2017)

Blade is usually around 7" and overall is around 12"
I don't know what he charges now but he is usually pretty reasonable.
https://www.facebook.com/harnerknives/


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## Hager (Sep 10, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> I had to google it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They look great but the handles. I don't get why all high end knives that I've look at are not legal in my industry or any restaurant


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 10, 2017)

Hager said:


> They look great but the handles. I don't get why all high end knives that I've look at are not legal in my industry or any restaurant



Because of ridiculous bureaucratic rules made by people who know nothing about what they are regulating.


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## ThEoRy (Sep 10, 2017)

Hager said:


> They look great but the handles. I don't get why all high end knives that I've look at are not legal in my industry or any restaurant





No worries. Butch also makes his own micarta. It's basically an epoxy/resin hardened with colored paracord or denim or whatever mixed in.


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## ThEoRy (Sep 10, 2017)

Here's some of Butch's micarta blocks.


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## TheCaptain (Sep 11, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> No worries. Butch also makes his own micarta. It's basically an epoxy/resin hardened with colored paracord or denim or whatever mixed in.


This. I have two of his pettys the below is his micarta. Can't say enough good things about his work.


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## daveb (Sep 11, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> I had to google it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



7". I own it.

And i have no prob with health inspectors and wooden handles. But thats a state thing regulated by county. (And each inspector has his/her own rules)

Those that can, do. Those that can't, regulate.

D


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## Hager (Sep 11, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> Here's some of Butch's micarta blocks.



I sent Mr Deveraux an email for some more info. Thanks


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## Hager (Sep 11, 2017)

fimbulvetr said:


> I use a 210mm Munetoshi slicer that I rehandled with burnt chestnut as a big boning knife/short cimeter. It's a brilliant solution for me since I'm seaming one minute and portioning steaks the next in a totally inadequate space AND it's fun and it's a conversation piece if I'm cutting in front of customers. If you're willing to rehandle yourself with a non-wood or sealed wood alternative, it might work.
> 
> It's the one on the bottom: https://instagram.com/p/BTPhFKdll7A/




Might have to order this one for my trimming knife after a new handle http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/munetoshi-kurouchi-170mm-wa-butcher/


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## Razor (Sep 11, 2017)

It would seem to me that as a professional butcher time is money. If you changed knives you would have to relearn various techniques, and change the way you manage the edge. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Now to the fun part. Get yourself a White #1 210-240 Gyuto for home use. It will do all the fun things Japanese knives do. Easily get crazy sharp, react with acidic foods and develop and change in color over time. And get the wood handle of your choice. Prices from $52-$1000+.


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## Hager (Sep 11, 2017)

Razor said:


> It would seem to me that as a professional butcher time is money. If you changed knives you would have to relearn various techniques, and change the way you manage the edge. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Now to the fun part. Get yourself a White #1 210-240 Gyuto for home use. It will do all the fun things Japanese knives do. Easily get crazy sharp, react with acidic foods and develop and change in color over time. And get the wood handle of your choice. Prices from $52-$1000+.



This why I'm sticking with the cimeter shape nicer steel would meen less sharpening and I can't spend this kind of money for a knife I would randomly use at home!!


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## ThEoRy (Sep 11, 2017)

Hager said:


> I sent Mr Deveraux an email for some more info. Thanks



I don't know who Mr. Deveraux is. We were all talking about Lloyd "Butch" Harner. Different Butch I suppose.


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## Hager (Sep 12, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> I don't know who Mr. Deveraux is. We were all talking about Lloyd "Butch" Harner. Different Butch I suppose.



Yap must of been the wrong butch When I googled it I got butch deveraux costoms I did see what I was looking for why I emailed them http://www.deverauxknives.com I will look up Lloyd Harner. I'm new to the knife world.


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## playero (Sep 13, 2017)

What can I say. Murray Carter is building a cleaver that you can use for bones and meat supposedly a mean knife. I have a 2lb winco cleaver also have a Wustoff and a small Saji. I also use a machete and Kramer knives a lot. It depends on your taste and how you want to work. The Chinese and Koreans have very nice cleavers that get sharp and stay sharp easily. I have a Victorionox but prefer the Kramer and the Carter. It's your choice and you can buy and resell if you don't like it. There are some stores that have knives that you can test to see if you can handle the weight the grip the balance the commodity of using it for hours. Remember it's not the same to cut one tomato a day vs cutting 100 daily. Same as butchering meat from the whole cow or parts.


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## Noodle Soup (Sep 13, 2017)

A story about that Carter/Kartmazov cleaver. Arnon made me a cleaver several years ago but I wasn't totally happy with it. I can't remember why now. He said he had an idea for a better one and that he would regrind mine to that concept. Which he did and it is one of the knives I use when I'm making stock that includes chopping bones. Good knife but I was kind of surprised when I saw that Carter/Kartmazov youtube vid. It is basically my knife.


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## Chef Doom (Sep 14, 2017)

If you truley desire a nicer version of a schimitar with japanese made carbon steel and a specific handle you will have to get one custom made. Any one who suggests otherwise does not have your best interest in mind.


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## Chef Doom (Sep 14, 2017)

DarkStar said:


> No idea what this goes for but... sweeeet


I wouldn't be willing to pay those Harner prices but you seem to be the only poster with any sense.


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## Chef Doom (Sep 14, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Just a thought, not sure what kind of budget you have in mind for this blade but maybe you could go the custom route? Get a maker to make you a scimitar with a blade profile and shape you're used to but with a better steel than a run of the mill Victorinox, Forschner or Dexter?


+1


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## Chef Doom (Sep 14, 2017)

Sorry DaveB, I did not give you the proper credit for for posting the Harner. Maybe I will give that one coworker who I accused of stealing my idea some credit haha.

I would figure a schimitar by Harner would cost north of $500 but I may be wrong. Plus it would be a worthy cost.


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## Hager (Sep 14, 2017)

I will have to have what want made and I will need to increase my budget to make this happen. In the mean time i will get a hold of some recomended makers. Might order a Munetoshi KUROUCHI 170mm wa buttcher for trimming


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## Hager (Sep 14, 2017)

:knight:lot to consider!


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## malexthekid (Sep 14, 2017)

Chef Doom said:


> I wouldn't be willing to pay those Harner prices but you seem to be the only poster with any sense.


I think butch's prices are very reasonable for what he produces.


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## nastyfatdave (Sep 14, 2017)

What about a rehandled vintage Foster Bros (or Goodell or F Dick or Lamsom or etc) breaking knife? Not hard, Japanese steel, but is that really appropriate for western style butchering anyways? I would recommend checking out UpbeatVintage on Instagram; they do work in this vein, as do others I assume


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## niwaki-boy (Sep 14, 2017)

Hager said:


> I will have to have what want made and I will need to increase my budget to make this happen. In the mean time i will get a hold of some recomended makers. Might order a Munetoshi KUROUCHI 170mm wa buttcher for trimming
> 
> That mune is a real killdozer for the money! If you want to try one out pm me... that steel would have to leave the room of course ;-)


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## Razor (Sep 14, 2017)

Here are some interesting vintage choices in high carbon. Some are stainless like the Case. https://www.ebay.com/p/CAPCO-Profes...Knife-10-Japan-SS-Blade-Wood-Handle/671754282


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## daveb (Sep 14, 2017)

Chef Doom said:


> Sorry DaveB, I did not give you the proper credit for for posting the Harner. Maybe I will give that one coworker who I accused of stealing my idea some credit haha.
> 
> I would figure a schimitar by Harner would cost north of $500 but I may be wrong. Plus it would be a worthy cost.



CD - You mixing your meds with the booze again? I didn't post the Harner, I'm almost embarrassed to admit I can't figure out how to post pics since Dropbox changed some of their stuff. I do own the Harner Bullnose though and like it a lot. Seem to recall it was in the 350 neighborhood. Of the Bullnose I've used, I like the Haburn the most, Butch a close 2nd, Forgie a distant 3rd and a Wustie Pro right behind the Forgie.

The Harner boning knife and plate pictured above I would gladly give your left nut for. :cool2: When I shopped for my last boning knife I liked Bloodroot, Harner and Marko for a purty one - had to settle for a Marko. Damn the bad luck.

But the OP is shopping for a Cimitar. I've not seen a Cimitar made by Butch but if he did so it would no doubt be very nice and yes, probably north of 500. I've a Marko that was north of 600, beautiful, but thin. It slays boneless meats but I would be skeered to use it in a true butchery role.


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## Noodle Soup (Sep 15, 2017)

I should thank you guys for reminding me that sometime in late winter/early spring I bought a mint 10-inch carbon Foster Bro. cimitar off the bay. I put it up thinking I need to remember to sharpen this around deer season. Found it again this morning. It will require bit of thinning and resharpening to be ready for real work. Now if the deer cooperate!


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## Chef Doom (Sep 15, 2017)

DaveB Hahaha I will blame it on sleep deprivation do to my Netflix addiction. The KKF app is a double edge sword. I have grown use to not editing posts.


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## nwdel (Sep 15, 2017)

I did this a while back

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-Comparison?highlight=boning+knife+comparison

I've since picked up a 10" bullnose from Ian that I love but it's more than twice what you're looking to spend.


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