# Dentoukougeishi or traditional Japanese craftsmen



## Midsummer (Jul 13, 2019)

I have found very little discussion of this designation.

It appears to be a high honor for smiths in Japan. 

Similar to master smith in US?

Why do we refer to it so infrequently here?

DO some think it is a marketing ploy?

I think there are many opinions and likely within our midst are some who have greater knowledge about this designation that I hope they may share. Thanks in advance for any useful contributions. Useless contributions are welcome too.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 13, 2019)

Its not really that interesting, for various reasons.

first, its a trad-j-knife thing
a gyuto isn't really a tadtional japanese knife 

second, its a sakai-region thing, and sakai area gyutos are pretty generic 
however... the better ones are made by these guys anyway (under...konosuke, takayuki, masamoto, geshin, etc)

third, better designed gyutos often (if not always) come from outside sakai 
viz shig/kato/wat/hinoura/mazaki from sanjo... tokyo with TF, etc

just my $0.02


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## Gregmega (Jul 13, 2019)

Not only did you not answer his question, little, if any, of what you said makes any sense. Just my $0.02.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 13, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Not only did you not answer his question, little, if any, of what you said makes any sense. Just my $0.02.





Midsummer said:


> [1]....I have found very little discussion of this designation.
> 
> [2]...Why do we refer to it so infrequently here?
> 
> [3]....DO some think it is a marketing ploy?



3. "...DO some think it is a marketing ploy?"....Marketing 'ploy' would be to strong a word for it.
2. "..Why do we refer to it so infrequently here?" ...alot of [already-expensive] brands use these guys...
1. "I have found very little discussion of this designation."....Because most KKF hype is non-sakai-region related


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## osakajoe (Jul 13, 2019)

To OP, don’t say smiths. It’s a western eye that assumes only a Smith can make a knife. A smith hammers and forgers a knife blank. A grinder turns that into a cutting tool. Totally different crafts but each hard and long to master. You can become an official craftsman of forging, sharpening and many other crafts in Japan (chopsticks, bowls, carvings, etc.). Usually requires 10+ years of non stop working and to be recognized by peers to earn that title. But again it is just a title given by a board who either rarely knows deep aspects of the trade and skill or are in the same circle (IMO). 



HRC_64 said:


> second, its a sakai-region thing, and sakai area gyutos are pretty generic
> however... the better ones are made by these guys anyway (under...konosuke, takayuki, masamoto, geshin, etc)
> 
> third, better designed gyutos often (if not always) come from outside sakai
> ...



C’mon hrc I thought you were better than this...

He’s asking about people not brands. Most of those Sakai names you just dropped are Sakai wholesaler brands, oem made in Sakai by actual craftsman (many who have the title or just don’t care to get it). 

Yes Sakai is dominantly single bevel made knives. and the first floor of the cutlery association is filled Seki made Sakai wholesaler branded knives. But go upstairs and you can find the actual craftsman made brands, many who have the title. This Sakai has failed at promoting their craftsman. 

the dentou title is a huge an honor to bestowed and a long hard road to earn. However I do agree that it does not automatically mean absolute best quality. 

I know many who don’t care to get it because it means becoming part of the board or “click” that requires you to go to meetings or do official duties that are unrelated to being a true craftsman, hammering or grinding 6 days a week 9-6 until you physically can’t or die.



Back to the OP, ignore 98 percent of the people on here. Most don’t know what their talking about and have loud voices or they like the color purple and you should too. You’ll eventually figure out what you like and who to listen to on here with a grain of salt or intently.


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## Gregmega (Jul 13, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> 3. "...DO some think it is a marketing ploy?"....Marketing 'ploy' would be to strong a word for it.
> 2. "..Why do we refer to it so infrequently here?" ...alot of [already-expensive] brands use these guys...
> 1. "I have found very little discussion of this designation."....Because most KKF hype is non-sakai-region related



Yeah. Your pre-edit post was about 70% less fleshed out.


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## Eitan78 (Jul 13, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Its not really that interesting, for various reasons.
> 
> first, its a trad-j-knife thing
> a gyuto isn't really a tadtional japanese knife
> ...


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## Matus (Jul 13, 2019)

Guys, this is an interesting topic that most of us know little about, any many most likely have some version of at least partially oversimplified miss conception of it.

So please take this into account when commenting and try to keep this thread in topic without a need for a moderation.

@Eric Chevallier - maybe you could give us a deeper insight?


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## HRC_64 (Jul 13, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> He’s asking about people not brands. Most of those Sakai names you just dropped are Sakai wholesaler brands, oem made in Sakai by actual craftsman (many who have the title or just don’t care to get it).



The OP was asking alot of questions, and there are differnt levels of abstracton in how to answer him.

its going down alot of rabbit holes in politics/economics/business/brand fanboyism
...etc to anwer every question in every possible way...

But in general, I don't think they are "under-hyped" in a meaningful way.

Thats good and bad...you can find some diamonds in the rough for sure
and you can find many famous knives that have these guys names attached already

whether or not they are the best/value/performers/fit depends on the situation
and many personal preferences, etc


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## chinacats (Jul 13, 2019)

Who cares, how does it cut?

And yes, purple rocks!

Btw, only ms knife I've used i didn't find very impressive but what do i know?


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## Midsummer (Jul 13, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Who cares, how does it cut?
> 
> And yes, purple rocks!
> 
> Btw, only ms knife I've used i didn't find very impressive but what do i know?



You know what you know...


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## Garm (Jul 13, 2019)

@HRC_64 
I believe Hinoura has this title. Shiro Kamo as well I think, so it's not limited to Sakai makers or craftsmen focusing exclusively on traditional Japanese blades.


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## ojisan (Jul 13, 2019)

Dentoukougeishi is not a Sakai thing at all. It's actually not only for knives as well. It's a title for those who devote their lives to traditional craft works, and defined by a law.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 13, 2019)

Ya'll are being too literal...its a "sakai thing" in the sense of that's where many of these guys are concentrated, where the craftsman have tehe most 'anonymity', and therefore where the generic marker of "trad craftsman" (usually a stamp or sticker designation) is most likely to be useful...in terms of your purchase decision.

I'm not sure this is useful for shig, hinoura, tf, kato etc...those guys are all famous for their product designs in their own right

In addition, you can have knives made by "certified crafstman" that vary in quality...
both by the same smith, but one is pre-fab laminate...not so "traditional"..etc
(see: konosuke fujiyama evolution)

again, the OP's question was more about why these cman-names are not "hyped" on KKF,
and I went through why I thought this was not really a good way of looking at it.

But don't take a 30k foot overview and try to use it for parking directions...
that's not the purpose of my answer...

Also, there is nothing to stop someone who wants to give a granular, detailed, 100%
technically correct and very specific answer from doing so...

Hope this helps clarify.



> ※ The traditional mark is a symbol of the traditional craft designated by the Minister of Economy, Trade and Industry. The product with the "traditional certificate stamp" on which the traditional mark is designed is a "traditional craft" that has passed the prescribed inspection.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 13, 2019)

Garm said:


> @HRC_64
> I believe Hinoura has this title. Shiro Kamo as well I think, so it's not limited to Sakai makers or craftsmen focusing exclusively on traditional Japanese blades.



T Hinoura


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## osakajoe (Jul 13, 2019)

I was also 7 strong high balls, one tequila shot, and three beers deep when I wrote that lol


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## ojisan (Jul 13, 2019)

If you are interested in this kind of titles, Oujuhoushou is another award you might been interested in. Oujuhoushou is a medal given by the emperor to those who achieved something great in their business.
Some of dentoukougeishi in the knife industry have this medal.

But like dentoukougeishi, when this medal is given to someone, he or she is most likely already well-known or popular in the industry.

Kato (Hiromu)-san, Iidsuka-san (shugefusa) and Hinoura-san are dentoukougeishi.
Kurosaki Yu-san became a dentoukougeishi recently.
I guess TF cannot be a dentoukougeishi because knife making in Tokyo is not recognized as "dentoukougei".


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## ojisan (Jul 13, 2019)

When you visit Tokyo, stop by Dentou Kougei Square at Aoyama if you interested in Dentoukiugei. You can find a lot of hand created traditional items there.

Ikeda-san gives sharpening lessons and sell events once or twice a year (it's a rare chance to get Sakai Hokushin knives in Tokyo).


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 13, 2019)

James at K&S has a blog post which looks to be consistent with what osakajoe and ojisan are saying
http://www.knivesandstones.com/blog/what-is-dentokougeshi-of-japan-/
I recall reading a bit at korin or perhaps jki too


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## Gregmega (Jul 14, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Ya'll are being too literal...its a "sakai thing" in the sense of that's where many of these guys are concentrated, where the craftsman have tehe most 'anonymity', and therefore where the generic marker of "trad craftsman" (usually a stamp or sticker designation) is most likely to be useful...in terms of your purchase decision.
> 
> I'm not sure this is useful for shig, hinoura, tf, kato etc...those guys are all famous for their product designs in their own right
> 
> ...



Then what was the purpose of your answer? You’ve still literally added zero to this otherwise very interesting topic. *you literally said ‘it’s a Sakai thing’, but we won’t take you too literally I guess. 

And Kurosaki iirc was the youngest dento to be inducted, the pics of his acceptance are brilliant, if you have the time to look. He looks as though his last night is about to spill out of his face. Classic.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 14, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Then what was the purpose of your answer? You’ve still literally added zero to this otherwise very interesting topic. *you literally said ‘it’s a Sakai thing’, but we won’t take you too literally I guess.



Sorry not to spoon feed you every step of the way...

Sakai


> Year of engagement: Engaged in current work from 1972
> Accreditation year: 1990
> Good technique: mirror finish



Sanjo


> Year of engagement: Engaged in current work from 1955
> Accreditation year: 2012



Eichizen



> Year of engagement: Engaged in current work from 1934
> Accreditation year: 2007


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## HRC_64 (Jul 14, 2019)

In case that was too cryptic...a couple more comments

Many of the sakai craftsman we think of were awarde this 10-20 years before it was more widespread to other areas
eg...sanjo makers had this only after 2011/12 timeframe... based on the database I saw 

Again, my earlier summary is just my opinion on why this isn't a that big a focal point for KKF
shig was making knifes without this for 57 years...so its not that important vis-a-vis other things.

James comes to a similar conclusion (with I'm sure more accurate commentary), 
pls read his note if you guys are interested ...


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## ojisan (Jul 14, 2019)

I agree that this title is not always important.

Note that echigo-sanjo-uchi-hamono was recognized as a dentou-kougei by the government in 2009 so before this nobody in Sanjo could get this title technically.

Echizen-uchi-hamono is much older (recognized since 1978, while Sakai since 1982) and Saji-san at Echizen got the title in 1997 for example.


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## ThinMan (Jul 14, 2019)

http://brand.sen-shu.com/sakai_utihamono/

List of dentou-kougeshi


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## Kippington (Jul 14, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Btw, only ms knife I've used i didn't find very impressive but what do i know?


I get a kick out of watching videos where (master) smiths use one of their own kitchen knives, only to display just how little skill they have at using what they've created!


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 15, 2019)

Kippington said:


> I get a kick out of watching videos where (master) smiths use one of their own kitchen knives, only to display just how little skill they have at using what they've created!



Any examples you would care to share? [emoji16]


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## Kippington (Jul 15, 2019)

Sure. This made me cringe, not so much his technique but the resulting cuts.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 15, 2019)

Kippington said:


> Sure. This made me cringe, not so much his technique but the resulting cuts.




Ajajaj


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 15, 2019)

Kippington said:


> Sure. This made me cringe, not so much his technique but the resulting cuts.




The resulting cuts are really of all different sizes and shapes. But the way he struggles with the carrots makes me turn my eyes away. Not much cutting, more pushing and leaning, there [emoji17][emoji380][emoji30]


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## Kippington (Jul 15, 2019)

Yep, he also accordions the radish.

Here's another example, at 18:30.

One could make the argument that you don't need knife skills to make a good knife, which is probably true, but it's still funny to watch them attempt to understand how their creation should be used.


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## chinacats (Jul 15, 2019)

I would argue that it makes a very big difference in understanding both grind and profiles. I really could care less if you can cut a rope.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 15, 2019)

Kippington said:


> Yep, he also accordions the radish.
> 
> Here's another example, at 18:30.
> 
> One could make the argument that you don't need knife skills to make a good knife, which is probably true, but it's still funny to watch them attempt to understand how their creation should be used.




Off on a tangent again, sorry OP. But! Yeah, I agree on both scores. It is fun watching them use their knives in a less than impressive way; and it seems obvious that proficiency in making a good knife and proficiency in using it impressively can come apart (in both directions). And even if this maybe should be expected, there is something about this fact that induces some sort of unease. In the ideal case, these two skills would always go hand in hand.


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## Garm (Jul 15, 2019)

It's certainly an anomaly of sorts, but not all that uncommon in other fields either actually.
Giuseppe Guarneri wasn't a very good violin player at all and Leo Fender barely knew a couple of chords on a guitar, yet what they produced remain some of the most lauded and popular instruments ever made. Go figure!


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## milkbaby (Jul 15, 2019)

Kippington said:


> Yep, he also accordions the radish.
> 
> Here's another example, at 18:30.
> 
> One could make the argument that you don't need knife skills to make a good knife, which is probably true, but it's still funny to watch them attempt to understand how their creation should be used.




Nice sawkiri


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 16, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> Nice sawkiri



I wonder what went through his mind. Might it have been something like ’Now I am going to show everybody just how great this knife is with the old tomato trick. Just a little back, a little forth, some more back, some forth, saw, saw, saw...’?


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## Eric Chevallier (Jul 20, 2019)

Matus said:


> Guys, this is an interesting topic that most of us know little about, any many most likely have some version of at least partially oversimplified miss conception of it.
> 
> So please take this into account when commenting and try to keep this thread in topic without a need for a moderation.
> 
> @Eric Chevallier - maybe you could give us a deeper insight?



I would love, but its really difficult to explain, especially in english that is not my native language.
i dont know what i should say. but for information i can say, Sakai is THE traditional kitchen knife maker city in Japan, because it was the first japanese city concentrating effort to make it a big business and keep it traditional.
As a member of the japanese blacksmith society lead by Sanjo maker and member of Sakai industrial promotion, i cant tell who is the traditional or now. But there is one easy thing to know it. The handle is made in magnolia and buffalo horn, with iron blade, you have a traditional knife.
Sakai had the chance to have one of the older international exhange port, they was able to export them products and got others from foreign country that the other city cant.
Sanjo blacksmith was not just blacksmith. They was farmer but decided to make agricultural tools and sell it during the rice culture off season. They navigated on the Shinano river to Tokyo to sell it. They decided to make kitchen knives recently.

Takefu was also agricultural tool maker but didnt have the chance to export them tools in other part of Japan. Its the reason why today there is young generation making lot of effort to sell overseas because they are not really famous in Japan. The making process is modern, even they use an hammer, we cant call it traditional. But they have many ideas, and make good stuff. Personaly im not into iron wood handle or new type of handle, simply because its hard, can break easily and slip when its wet (in a kitchen pro have often wet hands).
The good point of Takefu is the confidence in young generation and efforts to help them. I think Ta,efu is the next big knife making city.

Seki use the marketing point of katana maker reputation but even a child can make the difference between a handmade sword and a stainless machine made knife. This sentence is enough to close the talk about Seki.

Tosa is historical knife making city, really similar than Sakai, but they unfortunately didnt make enough effort to make the promotiom and they still local production and work for Sakai big brand like... no i wont tell who buy from Tosa 

After there is Miki or Niimi, but its doesnt exist for traditional mind.

But even these historical explanation, it not means all Sakai knives are traditionnal or all Seki knives are machine made. Sakai brand sell Seki knife because they cant make it, and Seki knife sell carbon steel knife from Sakai as Seki Knife because they cant make it too.
Traditional dont mean good for all, and modern bad. 
There is no best knife.
But keep in mind Honyaki is not recommended for kitchen knife, especially if you dont care what you cut. One mistake mean break your blade.
Damascus is not japanese, here we make suminagashi. Almost all Damas blades are not real Damas because real one is Woodz and few people can make real one.
The cutting is not better with a Damas blade because the cutting part is the same steel than other traditional knife.

You can have famous name of Sakai or other city, even the guy dont make is blade himself, its the case of **z*** but shhhh...
Japanese knife world is full of dark part 

About Ikeda knives:
There is 3 famous Ikeda in Sakai, all the same family, Tatsuo (dead few years ago) famous because his knives was good, but also just because he was alive when foreigners begun to have interested in japanese knives. His brother Yoshikazu have the same level and many people think he is better his brother.
And Ryuichi, the son of Tatsuo, who make knife but didnt reach the level of his father or uncle but still practicing hard and make knife for other brand.
As someone wrote here, even the blacksmith is good, if the sharpener isnt, it change everything... BUT if the blacksmith is good, if the sharpener use traditional way for sharpening, the esthetic can be bad, but inside, the knife still good.
A bad blacksmith with a good sharpener make beautiful knife, you will spend lot of money for that, but inside...you have a cheaper knife quality.
First thing is to dont care too much about the esthetic, you could sharp it yourself and make it beautiful.
Second things, not believe someone even "japanese knife specialist" if he try to sell you the most expensive because its the best. Good knife are not so expensive. Beautiful knives or knife with an history are.


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## Matus (Jul 20, 2019)

@Eric Chevallier thank you very much for sharing this (to very most of us inaccessible) perspective.


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## Eric Chevallier (Jul 20, 2019)

Even for me, from inside japanese maker world, its really hard to find real information. I try to learn what i can and teach what i know (or think i know..^^")



Matus said:


> @Eric Chevallier thank you very much for sharing this (to very most of us inaccessible) perspective.


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## osakajoe (Jul 20, 2019)

Miki is traditional for wood working tools such as planes, chisels, and saws.


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## Eric Chevallier (Jul 20, 2019)

Yes but knives... I used to buy and sell it... Awful.



osakajoe said:


> Miki is traditional for wood working tools such as planes, chisels, and saws.


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## ojisan (Jul 20, 2019)

Adding more info of Miki.

According to a paper I have, Miki was producing nails like crazy and also a lot of knives as well at the beginnig of Meiji era in 1874. At that time, Sakai was producing ton of Tabacco-knives and a lot of debas. Sanjo was also making nails like hell and some knives.

The ratio of the value of produced knives was Sakai:Miki:Sanjo=8:3:1

Interestingly, Miki and Sanjo used "knives" in the statistics while Sakai used "tabacco-knives" and "deba-knives".


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## Eric Chevallier (Jul 20, 2019)

Yep, when portuguese bring gun and tabaco knives in Sakai, makers decided to make it the main business. The shogunate of Nobunaga used to buy weapon in Sakai, that the city became the most powerfull city in Japan.
The making process of gun is like divided task, call bungyô in japanese, its this making process that made if Sakai a huge producer of knife when they finish to make guns.
Some maker decided to make knife like Sakai Tohji, the first Sakai knife brand. Sasuke decided to make scissors, and Shimano is now one of the most famous bicycle part and other smalk parts maker in the world.
You can find knife maker all over the world, in all island of Japan. But Miki and Niimi level is really low now when we compare with Sakai or Sanjo.


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## osakajoe (Jul 20, 2019)

Eric Chevallier said:


> Yes but knives... I used to buy and sell it... Awful.



Not Tanaka knives.

Disregarding your hate of ironwood.


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## Eric Chevallier (Jul 20, 2019)

Oh god... Tanaka... Definitely we dont have the same perception of what is traditional and good... Tanaka with his cute heart logo is a joke for japanese craftmen...


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## tgfencer (Jul 20, 2019)

Eric Chevallier said:


> Oh god... Tanaka... Definitely we dont have the same perception of what is traditional and good... Tanaka with his cute heart logo is a joke for japanese craftmen...



To clarify, Joe said Tanaka, not Takeda, which I think is what you read.


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## Eric Chevallier (Jul 20, 2019)

Oups.... My bad


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## Eric Chevallier (Jul 20, 2019)

But even this mistake, Tanaka is far to be in the top level knife maker. He do good job but unfortunately his finished knives could be better



Eric Chevallier said:


> Oups.... My bad


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## Xenif (Jul 20, 2019)

Eric Chevallier said:


> I would love, but its really difficult to explain, especially in english that is not my native language.
> i dont know what i should say. but for information i can say, Sakai is THE traditional kitchen knife maker city in Japan, because it was the first japanese city concentrating effort to make it a big business and keep it traditional.
> As a member of the japanese blacksmith society lead by Sanjo maker and member of Sakai industrial promotion, i cant tell who is the traditional or now. But there is one easy thing to know it. The handle is made in magnolia and buffalo horn, with iron blade, you have a traditional knife.
> Sakai had the chance to have one of the older international exhange port, they was able to export them products and got others from foreign country that the other city cant.
> ...


Thank You Eric, for clearing all that stuff up! This also adds a lot of insight into the recent Takefu discussion as well


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## Gregmega (Jul 20, 2019)

Boom. Thank you, gents!


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## osakajoe (Jul 20, 2019)

Eric Chevallier said:


> Oh god... Tanaka... Definitely we dont have the same perception of what is traditional and good... Tanaka with his cute heart logo is a joke for japanese craftmen...



Eric be careful what you say. 

You know where I am and if you want to learn more about knives you know the doors open. Don’t start a fire you can’t put out.

This is my shot across the bow. I’ll write it in French if you don’t understand.


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## Eitan78 (Jul 20, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> Eric be careful what you say.
> 
> You know where I am and if you want to learn more about knives you know the doors open. Don’t start a fire you can’t put out.
> 
> This is my shot across the bow. I’ll write it in French if you don’t understand.


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## Ivang (Jul 20, 2019)

Eric Chevallier said:


> But even this mistake, Tanaka is far to be in the top level knife maker. He do good job but unfortunately his finished knives could be better




I dont know squat about traditional craftsmen, but Tanaka knives kick ass. And his best knives are on par with anything else ive tried.

Ive had a few knives from sakai, with stickers and not, that couldn't keep up with my tanakas, both aesthetically and performance wise.

Oh, and those knives with the cute little hearts? I guessed you have to use a knife to judge a knife.


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## Midsummer (Jul 20, 2019)

Let reasoned heads prevail.....


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## DitmasPork (Jul 20, 2019)

Eric Chevallier said:


> Oh god... Tanaka... Definitely we dont have the same perception of what is traditional and good... Tanaka with his cute heart logo is a joke for japanese craftmen...



Can you elaborate on why Takeda's (not Tanaka) "cute heart logo is a joke for japanese craftmen"? The heart shaped motif was introduced by "Southern Barbarians" (Portuguese) to Japan sometime between the mid-14th and mid 15th centuries, during the Nanban Trade. Quite a nice logo IMO. [Side note: Portuguese also introduced the cooking technique that became tempura.]


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## McMan (Jul 20, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Can you elaborate on why Takeda's (not Tanaka) "cute heart logo is a joke for japanese craftmen"? The heart shaped motif was introduced by "Southern Barbarians" (Portuguese) to Japan sometime between the mid-14th and mid 15th centuries, during the Nanban Trade. Quite a nice logo IMO. [Side note: Portuguese also introduced the cooking technique that became tempura.]


16th-17th C, no?


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## DitmasPork (Jul 20, 2019)

McMan said:


> 16th-17th C, no?



Yeah, tempura first part of 17th century, though Naban Trade started mid-4th c. to the best of my knowledge.


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## McMan (Jul 20, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Yeah, tempura first part of 17th century, though Naban Trade started mid-4th c. to the best of my knowledge.



Mid-1300s (i.e. 14th C) is too early, if I’m not mistaken. 
Portuguese got to Japan mid-1500s (I.e. 16th C)


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## DitmasPork (Jul 20, 2019)

McMan said:


> Mid-1300s (i.e. 14th C) is too early, if I’m not mistaken.
> Portuguese got to Japan mid-1500s (I.e. 16th C)



Sorry, getting dyslexic, meant from 1540s. Cheers for the correction!


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## ojisan (Jul 20, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Can you elaborate on why Takeda's (not Tanaka) "cute heart logo is a joke for japanese craftmen"? The heart shaped motif was introduced by "Southern Barbarians" (Portuguese) to Japan sometime between the mid-14th and mid 15th centuries, during the Nanban Trade. Quite a nice logo IMO. [Side note: Portuguese also introduced the cooking technique that became tempura.]



I think it's simply "Imported long ago" doesn't always mean it's part of Japanese tradition. These alphabet characters I'm inputting right now were imported long ago as well but no body would think it's part of Japanese tradition. It's just same.

Some people even complain about katakanas on Japanese traditional knives as they make knives not traditional looks. The name of Aogami Super（青紙スーパー） is an example. Using only kanjis in a logo/marks is the best way to give traditional taste to native Japanese speakers.

It's all about appearance though.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 21, 2019)

ojisan said:


> I think it's simply "Imported long ago" doesn't always mean it's part of Japanese tradition. These alphabet characters I'm inputting right now were imported long ago as well but no body would think it's part of Japanese tradition. It's just same.
> 
> Some people even complain about katakanas on Japanese traditional knives as they make knives not traditional looks. The name of Aogami Super（青紙スーパー） is an example. Using only kanjis in a logo/marks is the best way to give traditional taste to native Japanese speakers.
> 
> It's all about appearance though.



Nicely put. Though “tradition” is a tricky concept, many traditions derived from foreign influences. The heart shape can be considered a motif integrated into Japanese culture, examples of samurai helmets adorned with it can be found. Think of how that foreign and exotic fruit called the pineapple, became a common design motif in British architecture and design, and major status symbol in the 18th c. Interestingly, a little pineapple is on the top of the Wimbledon trophy. Takeda’s “heart” might not have its genesis in Japan’s primary culture, but is Japanese in treatment and application, on a Japanese product. 

The chrysanthemum motif on Kikuichi knives, embossed onto Japanese passports, textiles, postage stamps, beloved Imperial Family emblem—was once as foreign in Japan as the heart symbol, the chrysanthemum and its motif was introduced to Japan from China in the 5th c.


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## parbaked (Jul 21, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> The heart shaped motif was introduced by "Southern Barbarians" (Portuguese) to Japan sometime between the mid-14th and mid 15th centuries, during the Nanban Trade.



The heart shape symbolizes the boar's eye ("Inome") in ancient Japan.
You can find them as decorative motifs in old temples and on weapons.
Predates any Portuguese influence by a few hundred years....


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## DitmasPork (Jul 21, 2019)

parbaked said:


> The heart shape symbolizes the boar's eye ("Inome") in ancient Japan.
> You can find them as decorative motifs in old temples and on weapons.
> Predates any Portuguese influence by a few hundred years....



Yes, very similar!


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## Xenif (Jul 21, 2019)

You guys made me craving some portugese tempura


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## HRC_64 (Jul 21, 2019)

Using 'out of context' (innapropriate) design language in certain places is uncouth in many cultures...
imagine using txt lol omg rofl where normal english is explected (like a businss card or signature)

only hipsters debate this...

... however.... its because they are trying to sell something....
which I think in a nutshell is the summary 
of this interesting little sidebar !


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## DitmasPork (Jul 21, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Using 'out of context' (innapropriate) design language in certain places is uncouth in many cultures...
> imagine using txt lol omg rofl where normal english is explected (like a businss card or signature)
> 
> only hipsters debate this...
> ...




Not sure if you’re new to KKF—I’ve actually never read any of your posts before now. Part of KKF’s purpose is to be a platform for having dialogue, exchanging ideas and insights, about a variety of subjects relating the craft, use and culture of kitchen knives.

I’m not sure which or who's comment you’re referring to as being “’out of context' (innapropriate) design language”? Most of what I’ve read on this thread appears valid responses to posts. However, when things spontaneously spin feistily off topic (within reason), that’s part of the fun on KKF.

Regarding your discomfort with “design language”—it would be useful and educational for you to familiarize yourself with the nature of many KKF threads, where much of the discourse is centered on knife design, use and materiality. Threads are often a good mix of esoteric, academic and practical knowledge—interspersed by the occasional wisecrack. I have much appreciation for the diverseness of KKFers—pro cooks, home cooks, knife makers, lawyers, designers, et al—and have learned a lot from these threads.

BTW, confused by your comment of “only hipsters debate this,” not sure what that means. How do you define a hipster? Are you a hipster? If so, please enlighten me. Or was it intended be a disparaging remark about a direction of the conversation that you know little about? If it’s the latter, then that’s very sad.

Of course no disrespect intended here. Just hoping that intelligent, diverse dialogue within out KKF community will combat small-minded viewpoints on kitchen knife related topics.


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## Barclid (Jul 21, 2019)

What the hell has this thread turned into?


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## Paraffin (Jul 21, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> How do you define a hipster?



Just so we're all clear on that one, here's a video  (<-- and please notice the wink, which seems to be necessary in this thread)


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## v647c (Jul 21, 2019)

Genkai is not dentoukougeishi. So it's actually cooler not to be one


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## tgfencer (Jul 21, 2019)

I for one don’t know enough to have an opinion about the OP topic, so I will provide a humorous interlude for this derailed thread.


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## Eitan78 (Jul 21, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Not enough irony


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## Bert2368 (Jul 21, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> I was also 7 strong high balls, one tequila shot, and three beers deep when I wrote that lol


Dude, how much do you WEIGH?


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## Hoonis (Jul 21, 2019)

Bert2368 said:


> Dude, how much do you WEIGH?


At least three bills to be throwing that back.


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## JBroida (Jul 21, 2019)

nah... he just lives in an area near a ton of awesome bars. Also, you underestimate how much japanese workers (or people working in japan) go out drinking


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## tgfencer (Jul 21, 2019)

JBroida said:


> nah... he just lives in an area near a ton of awesome bars. Also, you underestimate how much japanese workers (or people working in japan) go out drinking



Learned this the hard way. Went out drinking with my brother in law who works in Tokyo when I was there, and he and his coworkers nearly destroyed me.


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## XooMG (Jul 21, 2019)

The Japanese Traditional Craft Association is a government project for the purpose of preservation so that traditional crafts like dyeing, textiles, lacquerware, ceramics, paper making, metalwork, etc. can survive in a modern economy.

The skills and knowledge required to become a member are based more on traditional and technical aspects of the craft and are not generally based on end-user product review.

There will always be outstanding craftsmen that aren't participating in these projects, and while it can be a great honor to be valued by the government as a torch-holder and to have your knowledge and skills appreciated, it's no guarantee to the end user that the product will be optimal for their precise needs.

If you are a performance-minded user and don't care about craft preservation, then a product or maker being designated a traditional craft is not a primary criterion in purchasing decisions.


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## osakajoe (Jul 21, 2019)

Bert2368 said:


> Dude, how much do you WEIGH?



103 according to my last health check




Probably 105 with with these mega chu-hais in me hahaha

I’ll put three or four of those down after work about 4-5 times a week with coworkers.


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## Barclid (Jul 21, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> 103 according to my last health check
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks fun.


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## JBroida (Jul 21, 2019)

XooMG said:


> The Japanese Traditional Craft Association is a government project for the purpose of preservation so that traditional crafts like dyeing, textiles, lacquerware, ceramics, paper making, metalwork, etc. can survive in a modern economy.
> 
> The skills and knowledge required to become a member are based more on traditional and technical aspects of the craft and are not generally based on end-user product review.
> 
> ...



Couldn’t have put it better myself


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## JBroida (Jul 21, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> 103 according to my last health check
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That’s my boy [emoji110]


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## Barclid (Jul 21, 2019)

Eitan78 said:


> What was the question?



Oh, nothing. Life is just funny, you know?


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## Bert2368 (Jul 21, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> 103 according to my last health check



Kilos, I presume? (backwards, non Système Internationale d’Unités compliant USA person here).


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## labor of love (Jul 21, 2019)

Well, I’m only on my 3rd IPA...might crack open the Ardbeg in a bit to get on @osakajoe ’s level.
This is a fine dumpster fire we have going on here. I’d give it a 4 star review.


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## Bert2368 (Jul 21, 2019)

I admit to finishing the last of the 1750ml brandy bottle after making those two half gallon jars of "cherry bounce".







https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/posts/626793/

But not to anything more, you'll have to negotiate with my legal team for that!


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## labor of love (Jul 21, 2019)

Side note: the unfortunate thing is that members here are in all sorts of different time zones around the world. Whenever I have my best buzz I find myself PMing a maker about custom work and he’s just waking up.


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## osakajoe (Jul 22, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Well, I’m only on my 3rd IPA...might crack open the Ardbeg in a bit to get on @osakajoe ’s level.
> This is a fine dumpster fire we have going on here. I’d give it a 4 star review.



Yes it is. Why don’t we all have one and gather around the fire and keep warm. 




Currently visiting Miyajima shrine. But it’s pouring hard and there’s a brewery next door


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## Bert2368 (Jul 22, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> Yes it is. Why don’t we all have one and gather around the fire and keep warm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When I was visiting Japan 2 years back, they insisted on taking us to see a no play. In the rain. In April. In Omagari. (Akita prefecture, kind of Northerly, eh?).

We politely sat outdoors in the cold drizzle through this important cultural experience, which still does not compute. Then, THANK GOD, they took us to a brewery! I didn't care how unpalletizing the fungus they used to convince that un malted rice to convert starches to fermentable sugars sounded, I needed that alcohol BADLY by then.


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## Matus (Jul 22, 2019)

The thread is opened again. Thank you for your patience.


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## captaincaed (Jul 23, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> 103 according to my last health check
> 
> 
> 
> ...


105lb? I think I would have died. You have an iron liver


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## Nemo (Jul 23, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> 105lb? I think I would have died. You have an iron liver


More like hardened steel than iron [emoji16]


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## captaincaed (Jul 23, 2019)

Nemo said:


> More like hardened steel than iron [emoji16]


Sorry, liver like hagane


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## milkbaby (Jul 23, 2019)

XooMG said:


> The skills and knowledge required to become a member are based more on traditional and technical aspects of the craft and are not generally based on end-user product review.
> 
> There will always be outstanding craftsmen that aren't participating in these projects, and while it can be a great honor to be valued by the government as a torch-holder and to have your knowledge and skills appreciated, it's no guarantee to the end user that the product will be optimal for their precise needs.
> 
> If you are a performance-minded user and don't care about craft preservation, then a product or maker being designated a traditional craft is not a primary criterion in purchasing decisions.



I think this goes to the heart of the matter with respect to the OP's original post and question. KKF is a relatively small community where certain values such as performance in food prep are considered most important. Whether you showed excellence in traditional craftsmanship to earn Japanese Dentoukougeishi certification or passed the criteria to earn the American Bladesmithing Society's Mastersmith certification don't necessarily play to this core membership value.

Is it nice that your knife was made by recognized certified traditional craftsman or by a certified mastersmith? Yes, but it is not so important to the KKF membership in general.


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## osakajoe (Jul 23, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> 105lb? I think I would have died. You have an iron liver



Haha I wish. We use Kilograms in Japan. So you’ll need to double double that and add a few 

Was a lot slimmer when I was broke and not married. Having double income with no kids in Osaka doesn’t help when trying to sculpture your body lol

Especially when I walk outside my place and can hit 10 or more affordable standing bars and good restaurants. 

I feel like we’re going off topic and turning it into how much I drink in Osaka thread... maybe I’ll continue this in the off topic forums


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## Midsummer (Jul 23, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> 105lb? I think I would have died. You have an iron liver



I am betting kg or around 230lb.


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## captaincaed (Jul 23, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> Haha I wish. We use Kilograms in Japan. So you’ll need to double double that and add a few
> 
> Was a lot slimmer when I was broke and not married. Having double income with no kids in Osaka doesn’t help when trying to sculpture your body lol
> 
> ...



I think I'll join you, you svelte man. 
Yeah, spent 3 years in the Ballard Seattle neighborhood - walking distance to a dozen breweries at the time. Dangerous for pub golf nights. One friend got so drunk he forced himself into a branded baby onesie on the bartenders dare. 

Anywho.... I like @milkbaby comment about the distinction in priorities. Preserving traditional craftsmanship is a worthy goal. I'm personally happy to support that ethic. It's easy to lose local personality in a global economy. 

I lived in Thailand a couple years and they had an analogous program called OTOP (basically One County One Product). It wasn't a skillful distinction, but it did highlight local products. No single thing was ever that outstanding, but it reminded you where things come from, what to think about when you visit different provinces, what to appreciate in your own province. For example, There was this great lemongrass massage balm in my home province that I CANNOT find anywhere else in the world. It is sublime. Drives me f.ing batty. I would kill for it because the "traditional" Thai balm all smells like Vick's. Seriously, if anyone has this, let me know who you need whacked. I'll do it. 

Very long winded point being... God I don't know. After buying and lusting after knives I didn't need and didn't end up liking, I now prioritize what I'm looking for. Is it a performer or a party piece? I have one Ikeda I'll never use, I'll just oil it and look at it because the finish is amazing, and I have plenty of other knives. If it brings me joy either way, the little Marie Kondo inside me makes that sickening adorable chipmunk happy face and I walk away a happy man. If I ignore that little voice, I end up dealing with the Pawn Stars guys inside my head. I'll take the chipmunk thank you.


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## Elliot (Jul 23, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> I think this goes to the heart of the matter with respect to the OP's original post and question. KKF is a relatively small community where certain values such as performance in food prep are considered most important. Whether you showed excellence in traditional craftsmanship to earn Japanese Dentoukougeishi certification or passed the criteria to earn the American Bladesmithing Society's Mastersmith certification don't necessarily play to this core membership value.
> 
> Is it nice that your knife was made by recognized certified traditional craftsman or by a certified mastersmith? Yes, but it is not so important to the KKF membership in general.



I can't speak to the Japanese association, but part of this _*could*_ (I would defer to Jon or someone that knows better) be simply politics, fees, bureaucracy, etc. Not to discount members of the U.S. association like Burke or Rader, who are absolute bad asses, but I don't think it necessarily represents "only the best." Just off the top of my head, Joe from Halcyon Forge... not a Mastersmith. Is his work of any lesser quality? Don't think so. What's more, from my understanding, his work is done in "traditional" manners -- whatever that may mean.


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## Midsummer (Jul 23, 2019)

I want to thank all who have contributed to this thread. It has been a fun ride. I think my answer is that these are valued artisans doing traditional Japanese crafts recognized by the government. Not necessarily the best makers. 

Please add anything else if you like.. or let it go. Best to you all.


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## Eric Chevallier (Aug 16, 2019)

Oh Man, learn from you ?
I prefer dont answer to you. I work for all craftmen not my own business.




osakajoe said:


> Eric be careful what you say.
> 
> You know where I am and if you want to learn more about knives you know the doors open. Don’t start a fire you can’t put out.
> 
> This is my shot across the bow. I’ll write it in French if you don’t understand.


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## Eric Chevallier (Aug 16, 2019)

The logo is ok.
I mean just, Takeda is a good businessman... More famous in foreign country than Japan. I prefer dont tell more. Some "specialist" could be afraid or shocked by my words. 


"DitmasPork, post: 626535, member: 1869"]Can you elaborate on why Takeda's (not Tanaka) "cute heart logo is a joke for japanese craftmen"? The heart shaped motif was introduced by "Southern Barbarians" (Portuguese) to Japan sometime between the mid-14th and mid 15th centuries, during the Nanban Trade. Quite a nice logo IMO. [Side note: Portuguese also introduced the cooking technique that became tempura.][/QUOTE]


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## labor of love (Aug 16, 2019)

The fun part is when Osaka J knocks down 7 cocktails and decides to respond


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## daveb (Aug 16, 2019)

Can we pay pal Joe a couple drinks?


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 16, 2019)

ojisan said:


> I guess TF cannot be a dentoukougeishi because knife making in Tokyo is not recognized as "dentoukougei".



TF might have a retail store and small workshop, to entertain the customers in Tokyo, but his main factory is in Ibaraki, near Osaka


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 16, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I would argue that it makes a very big difference in understanding both grind and profiles. I really could care less if you can cut a rope.


And maybe this is why some of the best bladesmiths at producing high functioning knives were chefs at one point in their careers eg Mert and Trey


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## Eric Chevallier (Aug 17, 2019)

Yes its what i understand. Joe was maybe drunk. He know its better to have good relationship with other knives lovers, especially in our Osaka small world.
Joe, dont let the beer talk instead you 




labor of love said:


> The fun part is when Osaka J knocks down 7 cocktails and decides to respond


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## Silky (Aug 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> TF might have a retail store and small workshop, to entertain the customers in Tokyo, but his main factory is in Ibaraki, near Osaka



Ibaraki is actually north of Tokyo, about an hour by train. I believe his workshop is around Tsukuba city, might be misremembering. Side-note, but Heiji is also in Ibaraki.


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