# Soy sauce - chinese, japanese etc (Needing some wisdom)



## Adrian Chan (Aug 26, 2020)

Just as I thought I had grown up eating soy sauce of all kinds, I shouldn't really be asking this question. But recently ventured into japanese and korean cooking having became quite bored of cooking chinese food all the time since I moved to the UK 16 years ago when I was.....15.....I've realised I've only ever lived at the bottom of a well.

I've recently been looking into the differences between chinese and japanese soy sauces. Quite well versed with the chinese types, and I've just got myself some typical japanese soy sauce (which would be "dark"), and some white soy sauce. Yet to try the white, but japanese soy sauce tends to taste deeper, and saltier than the usual chinese stuff I use.

What I really want to know is, how does tamari compare to proper chinese dark soy sauce? (Is it again quite mellow, not very salty like the chinese stuff, and does it colour up?) I'm wondering as if I can consolidate my kitchen cabinet, I'd rather just have one sauce to colour...So if anyone has had any experience, I'd be very keen to hear!

Cheers
Adrian


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## spaceconvoy (Aug 26, 2020)

I'm not a connoisseur by any means, but a while back I got the urge to settle on a good soy sauce. I limited by choices to what was readily available in my local asian markets, and not too expensive. I usually prefer Japanese products, but in this case was surprised to find I liked the Korean soy sauce best. From what I remember, it was less one-note than the Chinese and Japanese brands I tried, and had a better balance between salt and flavor.

Korean Soy Sauce – Which One Do I Buy?

Now I just buy the Sempio 501 without thinking about it, largely thanks to this article.


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## daveb (Aug 26, 2020)

An encyclopedic thread was up recently on various soy sauces. I remember "Pearl River" being well thought of (and one of my first choices). I'm not good with google-fu but some searching should get you there.


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## mise_en_place (Aug 26, 2020)

Adrian Chan said:


> What I really want to know is, how does tamari compare to proper chinese dark soy sauce? (Is it again quite mellow, not very salty like the chinese stuff, and does it colour up?)



If by Chinese dark soy you mean the stuff that is thick and somewhat sweet, tamari is very different. Tamari is kind of like a stronger soy sauce flavor with the same saltiness you'd expect from "regular" Japanese soy sauces. The usukuchi (or light Japanese soy sauce) is saltier than regular, but lighter in color so it doesn't distort the color of the food (e.g. chawanmushi).


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## applepieforbreakfast (Aug 26, 2020)

This may be the thread @daveb was talking about. 

Soy sauce


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## juice (Aug 26, 2020)

daveb said:


> An encyclopedic thread was up recently on various soy sauces.





applepieforbreakfast said:


> This may be the thread @daveb was talking about.
> 
> Soy sauce


If "recently" is three years ago


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## daveb (Aug 26, 2020)

It all blurs together.........

But I don't think it's been three years.


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## Chuckles (Aug 26, 2020)

I bumped that thread hard in Jan of this year. I went to Pearl River bridge at home and Tamari for work. I want to check out some Korean soy sauces now.


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## falkon (Aug 26, 2020)

If you eat asian food a lot, I can tell you that trying to consolidate to 1 soy sauce is nearly impossible.

Here's what I've learned in 20 years of exploring asian cuisine:

Japanese soy sauces tend to have richer deeper flavor due to the meticulous care taken to make them. Fine food is seen as a precious commodity in Japan and the way Japanese people treat food reflects that.
Most common Japanese soy sauces can be separated into shoyu and tamari. Shoyu has wheat. Tamari does not. Tamari tends to be richer and more complex. It's very strong in umami and should be used sparingly for sushi, sashimi, grilled dishes, and other dishes where umami is the featured flavor. Shoyu is milder, sweeter. This is the general soy sauce that's used in most dishes. There are many many finer categories for shoyu, but if you're trying to simplify, I wouldn't try to get into them. The lighter varieties tend to have more wheat and used for lighter foods. 
Chinese soy sauces are mostly utility grade because it is used in very large quantities in Chinese cooking. Also, Chinese foods tend to have heavier flavors so nuances in flavor tend to be washed out. Although there are many exceptions, this tends to be the case. I rarely find chinese soy sauces with flavor as complex as shoyu.
There are two main varieties of soy sauce in China. Dark and light soy sauce. Light soy sauce has more umami flavor and is saltier. It is used for flavoring. Dark soy sauce is for color. It is milder and usually employed for braising.
That being said, to have the most minimum soy sauces, here's what I'd reduce it to.

One container of Japanese Shoyu. If you eat a lot of soy sauce, go with a good quality large batch such as this organic Kikkoman (not the one of the red cap bottle). Organic Soy Sauce (Japanese) | Asian Sauces | Nuts.com. If you want something nicer for day to day, try something smaller batch. I really like this one and it tends to be available at japanese markets: Takesan Kishibori Nama Shoyu Raw Soy Sauce 360ml There are different sodium levels for each grade so pick what suits you. This will serve as the general soy sauce for nearly all asian foods. Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc..
One container of Chinese dark soy sauce. I usually get Lee Kum Kee or Kimlan. It doesn't much matter. It's used for color for braising. Pretty much exclusively. But there really isn't a substitute so you have to have it.
If you have more shelf room, I'd supplement with a Tamari. This will cover sushi, sashimi, grilled dishes as I mentioned before.

It is important to remember that soy sauces have a shelf life. If you don't use it very often, don't buy 20 varieties just so you have the "right" one for every occasion. While the appropriate soy sauce can lift a dish, a substitute will function very adequately.


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## juice (Aug 26, 2020)

falkon said:


> It is important to remember that soy sauces have a shelf life. If you don't use it very often, don't buy 20 varieties just so you have the "right" one for every occasion. While the appropriate soy sauce can lift a dish, a substitute will function very adequately.


Next up: "falkon says you have too many knives, and can get by with far fewer!"


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## tchan001 (Aug 26, 2020)

Guide to Chinese soy sauce.








8 Types of Soy Sauces and Their Uses


There's more to soy sauce than dark and light, including one that fetches 30 times the usual price of a bottle.




guide.michelin.com


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## tchan001 (Aug 26, 2020)

Article on Taiwanese soy sauce.








A Sauce for All - Taiwan Today


Indispensable for daily cooking, traditional sauces made from black beans or soybeans are changing with the times. To find out what Xiluo is famous for, one just needs to drive around the old town fo...



taiwantoday.tw


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## Adrian Chan (Aug 27, 2020)

Thanks so much for all. 
Korean soy sauce - I'm intrigued, does anyone have a bit more info on it?

I say "slim down my sauces", what I actually have is chinese light soy sauce, dark soy sauce, a bottle of shoyu, and some white shoyu. 

So like everyone's said and confirms my thoughts, is that dark soy sauce isn't replacable for the colour etc. On that specific note I prefer the pearl river brand mushroom dark soy sauce. It's got the best colour, and the taste is just as unremarkable as everything else.

Light soy sauce however I think Kimlan has the best flavour from what I can obtain. LKK is a bit too salty, so is amoy, and pearl river is just bland when it comes to light soy sauces.

Japanese shoyu wise I have a big bottle of shibanuma shoyu. I may try and just use that for daily cooking and see if I can swap out the light soy sauce, and maybe get myself some tamari for other uses instead.

There's....so much to learn!


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## boomchakabowwow (Aug 27, 2020)

soy sauces..i tasted a tiny bit off a spoon lately. a Tamari, and some Chinese stuff. i might have 4 different types. just a few drops right off a spoon. the main differeences was easily the salt content. IMHO, my tamari was the saltiest. the other nuances kinda get blown out of the water by the "in yo face" saltiness. i did the same test with a tiny bit of rice and there i could taste the nuances. they are all kinda good if you are will to avoid the crap stuff like you get at cheap chinese restaurants. no extra ingredients but the bare essentials.


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## falkon (Aug 27, 2020)

juice said:


> Next up: "falkon says you have too many knives, and can get by with far fewer!"



You do. Like soy sauce, they also have a shelf life. I think you should give some to me.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Aug 27, 2020)

To answer OP’s question, I don’t think Tamari can be used to replace Chinese dark soy sauce. Tamari has a lighter color and much stronger taste. Tamari feels like a mix of light soy sauce and dark soy sauce plus some additional salt and deeper flavor.


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## falkon (Aug 27, 2020)

Yes. Tamari is very very different from other soy sauces. It is not a replacement for Chinese light or dark soy sauce. Or for Japanese Shoyu.
It tends to be very salty and very high in umami. Dark soy sauce is very mellow with minimal umami flavor. It's mostly for color and tends to be used in large quantities at once (I tend to have a 1L+ jug rather than a bottle).


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## MarcelNL (Aug 27, 2020)

I started buying small bottles just to try out the wealth of different Soy's, so far I'm with what is posted here, if you want to slim down stay with what is mentioned already, if not cupboard space is your only limit. I Like the Korean Soy a lot too, the organic Tamari, the Pearl stuff is great for chinese cooking. It's all horses for courses, I find you need a variety ot types for different applications.


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## ma_sha1 (Aug 27, 2020)

To compare to Chinese soy sources, it’s important to know that there are two major classes, three major types & they are so different it’s like apples & oranges. They are used for difference purposes, so chose it wisely based on your needs. 

老抽: 
The very dark version with less salt, less flavor, is meant for primarily coloration of meat. For example, to get the dark brown color of meat stews, use 老抽, but don’t use it for stir-fry or make dipping sauces from, it often lacks flavor. 

生抽：
The lighter/medium colored soy source meant for adding flavors, marinate meat for stir-fry, making dipping sauce etc. There are many version of this, most times doesn’t say 生抽 on the bottle but you can tell it’s not 老抽 if you have a bottle of it for reference. 

These are more flavorful, many varieties with different flavor or fermentation styles, but they are generally very salty, often too salty for dipping sauce without diluting, thus, there’s a low sodium version of it. 

Lite Soy sauce:
Reduced sodium version of 生抽, some times with green cap or green label but not always. The most sure way to tell is to read the label, this version usually has around 600 mg or less sodium per tbsp. The regular one 900-1200 typically, some times even higher. This version is best for dipping sauce without dilution, thus perseveres it’s flavor. 

Quick summary on ideal usage: 老抽 for stews; 生抽 for stir-fry, some times dipping sauce; Light soy sauce for dipping sauce, some times stir-fry.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 27, 2020)

great summary ma-sha!

BTW: I try to stay away from the kinds with flavor enhancers added, seems a trend to put it in everything lately...so reading glasses come with me to the Asian store.


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## Rangen (Aug 31, 2020)

Pearl River Bridge is definitely my go-to for Chinese soy sauce. But there are artisan soy sauces out there that blow it away, for dishes where you will notice. My favorite won't help you much; it's Kowloon Soy, and I bring it back from Hong Kong. The light is almost like others dark; the dark is superb in stews, almost irreplaceable. Haven't tried Lee Kum Kee, but their products can generally be trusted.

Tamari is great stuff, but there's an amazing artisan Japanese-style soy sauce that is worth knowing about, that can actually be obtained in the US, with some difficulty, called Wu Wan Wo. I admit it's made in Taiwan, but it definitely tastes Japanese style to me. I hear Taiwan loves Japanese food.


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## Qapla' (Aug 31, 2020)

Rangen said:


> Tamari is great stuff, but there's an amazing artisan Japanese-style soy sauce that is worth knowing about, that can actually be obtained in the US, with some difficulty, called Wu Wan Wo. I admit it's made in Taiwan, but it definitely tastes Japanese style to me. I hear Taiwan loves Japanese food.


Is there a style of soy sauce local to Taiwan?


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## Adrian Chan (Sep 1, 2020)

Rangen said:


> Pearl River Bridge is definitely my go-to for Chinese soy sauce. But there are artisan soy sauces out there that blow it away, for dishes where you will notice. My favorite won't help you much; it's Kowloon Soy, and I bring it back from Hong Kong. The light is almost like others dark; the dark is superb in stews, almost irreplaceable. Haven't tried Lee Kum Kee, but their products can generally be trusted.
> 
> Tamari is great stuff, but there's an amazing artisan Japanese-style soy sauce that is worth knowing about, that can actually be obtained in the US, with some difficulty, called Wu Wan Wo. I admit it's made in Taiwan, but it definitely tastes Japanese style to me. I hear Taiwan loves Japanese food.


Well... I guess I'll have to sample that next time I'm home! 
My go to light soy is kimlan, find it much better than pearl river. In essence, less salty, more taste. 
However the pearl river mushroom dark soy is probably the best I can easily obtain. Very dark, and very mellow. 

On the note of stuff you can't obtain, 八珍, who are famous for making vinegar actually makes some really good soy sauce. Again, only sold in Hong Kong. 

I'm in the uk, so i guess l have to look out for japanese imports!


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## Rangen (Sep 1, 2020)

Adrian Chan said:


> On the note of stuff you can't obtain, 八珍, who are famous for making vinegar actually makes some really good soy sauce. Again, only sold in Hong Kong.



Crap. I've walked past that store dozens of times (I don't read Chinese, but Google is useful). It's a block from Kowloon Soy (which is oddly, not in Kowloon). Next time...

I also failed to pick up the vinegar because I had heard it was only for a special dish for pregnant women.

Why did I have to learn all this when world travel is shut down?

I will have to try kimlan, but I am not entirely sure that less salt and more taste is a good match for many of the dishes I use PRB in. Still, the only way to decide is to try.

BTW if you happen into Kowloon Soy, their yellow bean sauce is also extremely worthwhile.


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## naader (Sep 5, 2020)

Adrian Chan said:


> Just as I thought I had grown up eating soy sauce of all kinds, I shouldn't really be asking this question. But recently ventured into japanese and korean cooking having became quite bored of cooking chinese food all the time since I moved to the UK 16 years ago when I was.....15.....I've realised I've only ever lived at the bottom of a well.
> 
> I've recently been looking into the differences between chinese and japanese soy sauces. Quite well versed with the chinese types, and I've just got myself some typical japanese soy sauce (which would be "dark"), and some white soy sauce. Yet to try the white, but japanese soy sauce tends to taste deeper, and saltier than the usual chinese stuff I use.
> 
> ...


Man this is a deep rabbit hole. I've had 5 different tamari that all tasted completely different. Soy sauces and tamari are complicated man.


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## Byphy (Sep 5, 2020)

KKF: "I got into knives because of my passion for cooking."
Also KKF: "How can I get by with just 1 soy sauce".

Jokes aside, soy sauce is just as nuanced as knives. Everyone gravitates towards Chinese & Japanese soy sauce because there's a sense of "refinement" (and because they're delicious), but I urge everyone to explore some South East Asian brands. Golden Mountain packs a ton of umami, kecap manis is used in Indonesian/Malaysian and Singaporean cooking and has a rich sweetness and syrup consistency, it's delicious. And while not quite soy sauce, Maggi seasoning is the sh*t.

And to get back to OP and was mentioned above: Dark for color, light for seasoning. Often used together in dishes.


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## Rangen (Sep 5, 2020)

Byphy said:


> KKF: "I got into knives because of my passion for cooking."
> Also KKF: "How can I get by with just 1 soy sauce".
> 
> Jokes aside, soy sauce is just as nuanced as knives. Everyone gravitates towards Chinese & Japanese soy sauce because there's a sense of "refinement" (and because they're delicious), but I urge everyone to explore some South East Asian brands. Golden Mountain packs a ton of umami, kecap manis is used in Indonesian/Malaysian and Singaporean cooking and has a rich sweetness and syrup consistency, it's delicious. And while not quite soy sauce, Maggi seasoning is the sh*t.
> ...



Yeah, the answer to "How can I get by with just one soy sauce" is "you should not try to do that."

Everything about what works is about the dish. I admit I am tradition-focused in my cooking. I mostly figure that all those recipes worked out when there was no distracting internet or TV are probably much better than modern improvisations on them. Or at least that it is the best ones that survived. So I will use those sauces when the traditional recipes call for them. I admit that I have not fully accepted Maggi. I think it is because it has some hint that reminds me of the ersatz La Choy soy sauce of my youth.

I do think that the merits of a good dark soy go far beyond color. There is a depth of flavor that they add to, say, stews, that anyone could detect, blindfolded.


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## Byphy (Sep 5, 2020)

Rangen said:


> I do think that the merits of a good dark soy go far beyond color. There is a depth of flavor that they add to, say, stews, that anyone could detect, blindfolded.



100% agreed. Was a little fast on the draw and ended up short-changing dark soy.

I 100% agree with this


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## Michi (Sep 5, 2020)

Maggi seasoning has a firm place in Asian and African cooking. It's also popular in Bavaria. In many a pub ("Wirtschaft"), when you sit down at a table, you'll find the usual salt and pepper, plus a pot of mustard and a bottle of Maggi seasoning, much like you'd find Worcestershire sauce and HP sauce in a British pub.


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## Noodle Soup (Sep 9, 2020)

Byphy said:


> KKF: "I got into knives because of my passion for cooking."
> Also KKF: "How can I get by with just 1 soy sauce".
> 
> Jokes aside, soy sauce is just as nuanced as knives. Everyone gravitates towards Chinese & Japanese soy sauce because there's a sense of "refinement" (and because they're delicious), but I urge everyone to explore some South East Asian brands. Golden Mountain packs a ton of umami, kecap manis is used in Indonesian/Malaysian and Singaporean cooking and has a rich sweetness and syrup consistency, it's delicious. And while not quite soy sauce, Maggi seasoning is the sh*t.
> ...


You frig/cupboard sounds like mine. Might have to throw in an assortment of fish sauce though.


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## Byphy (Sep 9, 2020)

Similar to soy, no 2 fish sauce is alike. I feel it is easier to sub fish sauces for each other tho. I have my favs haha

@Noodle Soup


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