# "Microserrations" after sharpening



## chiffonodd (Jul 6, 2015)

I just sharpened through a full progression on a white #2 gyuto (g ginga) for the first time - only had it for a few months so had previously only "touched up" the edge on high grit stones, not wanting to mess up Jon's initial sharpening job, which I knew I couldn't duplicate. Anyway, after going through the whole progression (1K, 3K, 8K, 10K), I've noticed a couple spots on the edge that appear to have extremely fine microserrations at the very edge. These are not chips, they are extremely small, almost invisible - they show up as glints of light more than visibly deformed metal, although you can see some slight deformation if you look hard enough.

At first I thought maybe I hadn't done a good enough job deburring, as that seemed the most obvious suspect. But I don't feel a burr when running my fingertips or fingernail laterally (perpendicular to the edge). 

I did a fair amount of edge trailing strokes at the end of each grit, followed by hard felt, in an attempt to deburr. Could it be that some just stuck around, and I'm not feeling it because it happens to be aligned correctly? I haven't used it much since sharpening, so don't know if there is any quick degradation that could indicate wire edge. 

What's likely going on and what is the way to fix it? Start over at 1K and try to deburring better? 

PS: it is sharp as all get out, just looks a little off in some spots.


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## XooMG (Jul 6, 2015)

Edge trailing strokes don't do a good job of removing a burr; they can create a foil edge. I recommend running the edge through something to pull it off (at 4k and under, I use the unfinished wooden handle on a paintbrush, but cork and other stuff works fine), and go easy on edge-trailing strokes. If using hard felt, is there any abrasive being used? I sometimes use a few strokes on fine diamond grit on balsa, and after every 4 edge-trailing strokes or so, I'll run the edge through the edge of the balsa just to prevent drawing out another foil-like edge.


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## chiffonodd (Jul 6, 2015)

"Foil edge" is a great descriptor of what it looks like in those spots. The felt I was using is one of those hard felt blocks for cutting into - not a pad to strope on. I've got a wood paintbrush around here somewhere, will give it a shot thanks. 

If it doesn't pull off the foil edge, will I need to re sharpen from 1K on up?


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## EdipisReks (Jul 6, 2015)

Try the rough side of a blue sponge. Don't cut into it, draw away from it at a 45 degree angle, multiple times on each side.


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## XooMG (Jul 6, 2015)

chiffonodd said:


> "Foil edge" is a great descriptor of what it looks like in those spots. The felt I was using is one of those hard felt blocks for cutting into - not a pad to strope on. I've got a wood paintbrush around here somewhere, will give it a shot thanks.
> 
> If it doesn't pull off the foil edge, will I need to re sharpen from 1K on up?


There are many strategies people will suggest and I can't claim that I can give you better advice. However, I have "jointed" edges before on very fine stones (basically do a very light slice on the side or edge of a fine stone to grind the very edge and burr off), and bringing it back with 4k or 6k is not hard at all...a few strokes with minimal pressure on each side ought to return the apex to a very good sharpness with minimal burr. I do this on razors and knives with good results and very little material loss or fatigue.

Going back to 1k seems a bit overkill for something small like a foil edge.


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## JBroida (Jul 6, 2015)

EdipisReks said:


> Try the rough side of a blue sponge. Don't cut into it, draw away from it at a 45 degree angle, multiple times on each side.



haha... now my secret is out there


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## EdipisReks (Jul 6, 2015)

JBroida said:


> haha... now my secret is out there



It has been for a while, otherwise I wouldn't have squealed!


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## EdipisReks (Jul 6, 2015)

And it works!


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## chiffonodd (Jul 6, 2015)

EdipisReks said:


> Try the rough side of a blue sponge. Don't cut into it, draw away from it at a 45 degree angle, multiple times on each side.



Draw away meaning like scrape at a 45 degree angle, basically?


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## EdipisReks (Jul 6, 2015)

chiffonodd said:


> Draw away meaning like scrape at a 45 degree angle, basically?



means exactly what it says.


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## XooMG (Jul 6, 2015)

chiffonodd said:


> Draw away meaning like scrape at a 45 degree angle, basically?


Yeah, let the fibers of the scrubbie pull the very edge off like a wire brush. Should be gentle enough to do minimal damage to the very edge, and should be aggressive enough to remove most of the burr fragments.


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## chiffonodd (Jul 6, 2015)

EdipisReks said:


> means exactly what it says.



"Draw away" is ambiguous


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## XooMG (Jul 6, 2015)

chiffonodd said:


> "Draw away" is ambiguous


Don't worry about abrasive personalities...focus on abrasive sponges:
[video]https://youtu.be/XnhIKOX6Rco[/video]
I think around 7:45 to 8:00 in the video.


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## EdipisReks (Jul 6, 2015)

chiffonodd said:


> "Draw away" is ambiguous



No it isn't, given the context of knives, and "don't cut into it, draw away from it." I said exactly what I meant, no abrasive personality necessary.


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## toddnmd (Jul 6, 2015)

chiffonodd said:


> Draw away meaning like scrape at a 45 degree angle, basically?



Seems like a perfectly reasonable clarifying question. It wasn't totally clear to me, either. So, an edge-trailing stroke at a pretty high angle?


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## JBroida (Jul 6, 2015)

yup


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## chiffonodd (Jul 6, 2015)

thanks all for the advice


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## MadDurrr (Jul 6, 2015)

Thanks for the video link. Lots of useful info to absorb there.


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## daveb (Jul 6, 2015)

EdipisReks said:


> No it isn't, given the context of knives, and "don't cut into it, draw away from it." I said exactly what I meant, no abrasive personality necessary.




That's our Wally!


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 6, 2015)

daveb said:


> That's our Wally!



Wally?


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## gic (Jul 6, 2015)

Doesn't it depend on how small the microserrations are? If they are really really small, isn't that is a good thing? Gives you a toothy but sharp edge, no?

After all, if you strop on diamond balsa and look at the edge under a really powerful loop, you will see "microserrations" and isn't it the case that every edge has microserrations under sufficiently high magnifications. (Just askin  )

Now macro serrations visible to the native eye are another thing


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## chiffonodd (Jul 6, 2015)

gic said:


> Doesn't it depend on how small the microserrations are? If they are really really small, isn't that is a good thing? Gives you a toothy but sharp edge, no?
> 
> After all, if you strop on diamond balsa and look at the edge under a really powerful loop, you will see "microserrations" and isn't it the case that every edge has microserrations under sufficiently high magnifications. (Just askin  )
> 
> Now macro serrations visible to the native eye are another thing



Yeah I actually was thinking that it was nice and toothy, which certainly isn't a problem - BUT it probably should not be when polished up to 10K, right?? They are visible to the naked eye but barely. Also, the surest indication to me that something is "wrong" is the inconsistency -- the little deformations are only visible in a couple spots here and there, both locations no bigger than a couple centimeters. If I was doing something right and creating a toothy edge on purpose, hopefully it would be that way throughout 

I liked "foil edge" as a good description, almost like the very edge was made of foil at that location and had been stretched and then torn. Probably the result of over stroping/edge-trailing in an attempt to deburr . . . Had the opposite effect and just pulled out a burr!


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## chiffonodd (Jul 6, 2015)

XooMG said:


> Don't worry about abrasive personalities...focus on abrasive sponges:
> [video]https://youtu.be/XnhIKOX6Rco[/video]
> I think around 7:45 to 8:00 in the video.



Awesome thanks for the video. I see Jon's secret was already out there haha.


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## gic (Jul 6, 2015)

I bow heartily to Jon's expertise  

but seems to me obvious if they are visible to the naked eye, they are a problem, if they are only barely visible at say 40X magnification and run the length of the blade, they are a good thing...


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## EdipisReks (Jul 6, 2015)

daveb said:


> That's our Wally!



heh


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## chiffonodd (Jul 7, 2015)

gic said:


> I bow heartily to Jon's expertise
> 
> but seems to me obvious if they are visible to the naked eye, they are a problem, if they are only barely visible at say 40X magnification and run the length of the blade, they are a good thing...



Yeah I think you are definitely right about that. Anyway I will try the sponge trick and see what happens.


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## chiffonodd (Jul 23, 2015)

So work got really crazy for a few weeks and I haven't had much of a chance to cook or work on the knife. Finally caught a bit of a break tonight - tried the sponge trick but no dice.

I think it's definitely metal that's been pulled too thin during sharpening (while edge trailing in an attempt to deburr) and tore at the edge, rather than any sort of chipping. Here are two pics. One for size/perspective and the other showing the deformation:












Notice how the edge is pretty clean on the bottom half of the photo, then hits that spot with the tearing. 

So what do you think, just your plain run of the mill burr? I've already tried the rough side of sponge, cutting lightly into soft wood, cork, and felt. Think it's time to drop down to 3K (my lowest grit above 1K) and try to sharpen it out with edge leading strokes, then go back up through my progression?

Thanks KKF.


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## chinacats (Jul 23, 2015)

I would suggest lighter pressure...


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## chiffonodd (Jul 23, 2015)

chinacats said:


> I would suggest lighter pressure...



I think so too. I think I pulled it out by pushing too hard when edge trailing. Will give it a go, thanks sir.


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## Dave Martell (Jul 24, 2015)

Looks like a typical wire edge to me. Looks great after sharpening/deburring but fails in use.


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## chiffonodd (Jul 24, 2015)

Dave Martell said:


> Looks like a typical wire edge to me. Looks great after sharpening/deburring but fails in use.



Thanks Dave - your thoughts on how to correct at this point?


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## Dave Martell (Jul 24, 2015)

First, does that section hit the cutting board properly? I've seen many times where a section of an edge doesn't deburr cleanly and then I find that there's a reverse bow in the edge. When that's the situation the edge doesn't contact the strop/stone evenly and skips over that section. I'm reaching on this but I wanted to ask before talking about other stuff.


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## chiffonodd (Jul 24, 2015)

Dave Martell said:


> First, does that section hit the cutting board properly? I've seen many times where a section of an edge doesn't deburr cleanly and then I find that there's a reverse bow in the edge. When that's the situation the edge doesn't contact the strop/stone evenly and skips over that section. I'm reaching on this but I wanted to ask before talking about other stuff.



Haven't noticed trouble with board contact, but only used the knife once since sharpening (have been working late at the office for weeks). I'll check tonight and report back, thanks!


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## chiffonodd (Jul 24, 2015)

Dave Martell said:


> First, does that section hit the cutting board properly? . . .



Alright Dave - I checked it out tonight. sliced raw and cooked chicken breast, cut onions, potatoes, zucchini, and minced garlic. Knife performs very well no noticeable degradation in cutting performance. If it's a wire edge it's holding in position for now.

I checked the edge on the board, no apparent gaps or lack of contact. I mean there is the curve of the blade of course but no weird reverse bows.

Here's pics of board contact for what it's worth. Doesn't really reveal much bc of the curve of the blade but should show that space between the knife and board follows a smooth curve:











What do you think then, just a scrap of burr?


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## Dave Martell (Jul 24, 2015)

Yeah maybe it's just burrs.


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## JBroida (Jul 24, 2015)

i think so... thats what it looks like to me


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## chiffonodd (Jul 24, 2015)

Thanks gentlemen. Haven't been able to remove it using the usual tricks so may just have to be sharpened out. Since the knife seems to be performing just fine I think I'll let it be until it's time to sharpen again, unless you can think of a reason to do otherwise?


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## JBroida (Jul 24, 2015)

for what its worth, if you're having too much trouble with it, just send it to me and i'll sharpen it for you


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## chiffonodd (Jul 24, 2015)

JBroida said:


> for what its worth, if you're having too much trouble with it, just send it to me and i'll sharpen it for you



Thanks Jon but this dude's gotta learn to fend for himself! Plus what would I do with all these stones . . . :dazed:

If i get in too far over my head I'll send it your way. Still having fun learning the technique, gotta expect some imperfect results along the way ardon:


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## Steel_Drake (Jul 27, 2015)

If you have a waterstone hard enough to apply a micro-bevel with, or a high grit solid ceramic stone (Spyderco F), you can make 1-2 passes per side at a high angle (at least double the angle you are sharpening at) with extremely light force to cut off a burr, and then make ~5 alternating passes per side at the angle you were sharpening at with light force to remove the tiny micro-bevel you created.

This process has the virtue of cutting off a burr rather than tearing it off (and weakening the metal behind it in doing so).


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## chiffonodd (Jul 27, 2015)

Steel_Drake said:


> If you have a waterstone hard enough to apply a micro-bevel with, or a high grit solid ceramic stone (Spyderco F), you can make 1-2 passes per side at a high angle (at least double the angle you are sharpening at) with extremely light force to cut off a burr, and then make ~5 alternating passes per side at the angle you were sharpening at with light force to remove the tiny micro-bevel you created.
> 
> This process has the virtue of cutting off a burr rather than tearing it off (and weakening the metal behind it in doing so).



I have a naniwa 10K . . . Should do the trick?


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## Dardeau (Jul 27, 2015)

I put a micro bevel on almost all my knives...


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