# Supplemental Jnat finisher



## K813zra (Jan 10, 2017)

Having spent more and more time with my Jnats I have decided that I am looking for something else in a finishing stone. What I currently use is a Yaginoshima Asagi. There is nothing wrong with this stone and I would like to keep it around to see what Naka-to it best pairs with, but there are some things about it that are not working for me in my progression at the moment. 

The stone is not hard like my Shobudani Mizu Asagi, which I use for razors. It is much harder than any other stones that I have, though. These are said to be around the 3.5-4 range but I think mine is closer to Lv4. Without first raising a little mud it is a little too hard and glassy but still gets the job done, just a little slower than I would like. With a mud raised it is still almost harder than I would like. The issue is that jumping to it from either my Tajima, Ikarashi or Binsui seems like a little too much work for it. 

I had asked about bridging the gap before and I can do that with Tsushima but I prefer that stone for my razors. So rather than go that route I was thinking that there might be something better suited to work in conjunction with the Naka-to stones that I have. Maybe something a little softer and faster. Nothing to extreme, though. 

I use non wide double knives almost exclusively. For this particular job I have found that I am not overly fond of very muddy stones. Nothing wrong with some mud or even a moderate amount of it but nothing like my soft aoto that bleeds mud when I look at it. 

So here is where I am at. I have been looking at the usual suspects. Hideriyama, Oouchi, Takashima and Ohira. Now, a lot of trusted dealers seem to carry an overlap of these stones. JNS, JKI, Aframes and Watanabe. The issue is that none of these guys seem to use the same scale for hardness so I am not sure what to expect when looking at stones. 

From my understanding of reading this forum, Aframes typically carries stones that are harder than the JNS and JKI. Watanabe low balls the hardness, IE if he says it is a six then it is often a seven. Jon and Maxim normally have softer stones unless otherwise stated. That is my take away from reading hundreds of thread here. The problem is that I have nothing to apply that information to. 

So, if looking at Aframes what should I be looking for? Anything that is at 8-8.2? These seem to be what he calls softer finishing stone. With Watanabe something that is 6-7? JNS and JKI are a little more straight forward. 

That out of the way: any thoughts on picking up an Ohira that is not a suita? I assume these are Tomae but that does not really seem important. I ask because I see a lot of Ohira, asagi/kiita/iromono etc listed on a few of these sites that seem to have the same relative hardness as the suita and have a description saying that they are fairly fast. Thing is, they are much, much more affordable. 

Sorry for the giant wall of text, I am just lost in a sea of stones. As I said, I have a number (a growing number) of Naka-to stones and those I have a better understanding of. However, I think it is time to start playing with Awase-do. 

As an aside, I know someone is going to say it. Yes, I don't need these stones but I do want to try more of them. I have plenty of synthetic stones and that is just not what I am looking for.

Any advice you can offer would be much appreciated.


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## tgfencer (Jan 10, 2017)

Yeah, the hardness scales can be a real pain to interpret and honestly, its also down to the user. What feels hard to Watanabe might feel softer to you. Likewise, if you've only ever used softer stones, a med-hard suita can feel very hard indeed. For instance, I have four ohira suitas and my interpretation of their various levels of hardness doesn't necessarily line up with what I might have been given to believe by the respective scales of their sellers. I think it best to directly ask sellers specifically about a stone. Often they will dig it out, use it and give better info.

That aside, I've got an ohira kiita I picked up recently (about Lvl 3, for whatever that's worth to you...) and from my use of it, it sounds like it could be right up your alley. Its softer than my ohira suitas and does not mud excessively, but still works up a nice slurry and has a nice smooth feedback that feels a bit more creamy than a suita would. Having said that, there's no guarantee another ohira kiita or tomae would feel or act the same, but I think you are on the right track.

Hideriyama, Oouchi, Takashima are all relatively muddy finishers from my experience and what I've heard from others. I really like my hideriyama, but if you dont really use wide-bevels and you arent looking for mud, I'm not sure they'd be what you wanted. Having said that, they are affordable and easy to locate from trusted sources.

Here are some pictures of my hideriyama mud, first is wet and second is dry.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 10, 2017)

May i ask why you don't want to use your Tsushima and where did you get your Yaginoshima? Without knowing this, i would say Aizu for a coarser option and Hakka/Takashima for a finer option. Maybe a softer/coarser Ohira suita if your Yaginoshima is finer.


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## K813zra (Jan 10, 2017)

Thank you both. From those pictures it does seem a little more muddy than I would like but again, I guess I would have to try it to find out. I was thinking along the lines that you were, those particular stones are somewhat inexpensive so worth a shot. At least compared with other natural finishers. The Ohira option does sound more like what I was thinking. I do understand that another Ohira may differ from the one you have experience with.

As for the Tsushima, it isn't that I don't want to use it but I really just want to try something else. Something finer than the Tsushima and maybe a step down from the Yaginoshima. I got the Yaginoshima as a gift from another sharpener and I believe it was from Metal-Master but I would have to look at my notes from last year. 

I am really just looking to play with something new but would like to make an informed choice. I realize it is still a shot in the dark, to an extent but the way I figure it is that it never hurts to gather opinions from those more experienced than myself. Just looking for a general opinion of the most common characteristics of particular stones as I know that no two are the same but they share, at least, similar properties.

The thing is that I am a very indecisive person by nature and these things play on my mind.


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## tgfencer (Jan 10, 2017)

No worries, I think what you are appear to be looking for is a tricky one to find. There are well known soft muddy finishers and hard finishers, but finishers on the softer side of hard yet without drifting too far into the realm of muddy are probably going to be more difficult to locate without a bit of trial and error. I'd think you'll probably end up needing to look for a harder takashima/hakka/hideriyama or a softer awasedo/kiita of some description. I'd be interested to hear what Badger, Smash, or some of the other jnat junkies might have to say on the subject.


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## foody518 (Jan 10, 2017)

My Oouchi (from JKI) is supposed to run softer than the Hideriyama stones also carried there and IIRC it won't kick up even close to that much slurry just refining a narrow beveled primary edge.

Maybe also consider Maksim's lvl 2.5-3 Aiiwatani stones. My lvl 4 is very definitely one of the finest finishers I have, but Badger had a thread about his soft Aiiwatani that looked good

Khao Men?


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## K813zra (Jan 10, 2017)

tgfencer said:


> No worries, I think what you are appear to be looking for is a tricky one to find. There are well known soft muddy finishers and hard finishers, but finishers on the softer side of hard yet without drifting too far into the realm of muddy are probably going to be more difficult to locate without a bit of trial and error. I'd think you'll probably end up needing to look for a harder takashima/hakka/hideriyama or a softer awasedo/kiita of some description. I'd be interested to hear what Badger, Smash, or some of the other jnat junkies might have to say on the subject.



Yeah, seems I tend to make things difficult in every aspect of my life. I never seem to fit into that norm, lol. I see that Aframes has harder Takashima but they seem to be much, much harder by the description. I do not know if his hideriyama are much harder than others as I have not seen them compared by running a search here. I was trying to mitigate the trial an error but do realize that I can not get around it completely. Just a push in the right direction. 

That is why I gravitated to the Ohira stones. From what I have read they are more on the softer side of hard and somewhat quicker and coarser than other finishing stones. But that is only from the few posts I could find. After you get past 10-12 pages of google results your head starts to spin a bit! I guess harder is not so much the issue as the stone not being fast enough to work with the naka-to before it. At least that is how it seems to me at the moment.

Edit: 

Foody, 

That is a good point. I guess the stones will act differently with a smaller amount of the blade making contact. I had thought of that at first but then it drifted away somewhere in my mind. Thanks.


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## tgfencer (Jan 10, 2017)

Believe it or not Foody, that hideriyama mud is actually from me sharpening two consecutive narrow-beveled knives. But on a whole, I definitely agree with you. One will certainly get less mud without a wide bevel. The aiiwatani is a good shout. Badger told me good things about his and several others I've talked too have had equally positive experiences with their aiiwatani too.

And yes, those Aframes takashima are not what I was referring too, they are very hard.


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## foody518 (Jan 10, 2017)

tgfencer said:


> Believe it or not Foody, that hideriyama mud is actually from me sharpening two consecutive narrow-beveled knives. But on a whole, I definitely agree with you. One will certainly get less mud without a wide bevel. The aiiwatani is a good shout. Badger told me good things about his and several others I've talked too have had equally positive experiences with their aiiwatani too.
> 
> And yes, those Aframes takashima are not what I was referring too, they are very hard.



Hmmm alrighty, thanks tgfencer. The difference for me on mud generated from wide bevel vs not has been huge. Part of that probably also goes back to pressure used - on these prefinisher/softer finisher level stones, have been working to keep the pressure light since the bevel has already been set, and hard pressure with a slightly too high angle killing my edge is no fun. I'll try a knife on my Oouchi and get a picture soon

OP- have you considered Khao Men?


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## K813zra (Jan 10, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Hmmm alrighty, thanks tgfencer. The difference for me on mud generated from wide bevel vs not has been huge. Part of that probably also goes back to pressure used - on these prefinisher/softer finisher level stones, have been working to keep the pressure light since the bevel has already been set, and hard pressure with a slightly too high angle killing my edge is no fun. I'll try a knife on my Oouchi and get a picture soon
> 
> OP- have you considered Khao Men?



I have read about it but was trying to stay with one family of stones for now. I have not got into stones from other countries as of yet.


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## Mute-on (Jan 10, 2017)

As others have said, Hakka, Takashima, Hideriyama. I would say a JNS 2.5 would be perfect. The Hakka will likely be muddier than the other two. I have the Takashima that Maksim used to finish a Mukimono in one of his videos. It is very refined without being glassy.
I would also suggest an Aiiwatani Koppa at a JNS 3.0 or even 2.5. I have a 3.0 and it is noticeably harder than my other 2.5 stones. I would liken it to a razor pre-finisher, though I do not use a straight. 
The best alternative in an all in one would be an Ohira Suita JNS 3.5. Hard, fast, not glassy, amazing. These are getting up in dollars but I suggest replace two stones in a progression, and are worth it.

You've opened the can now ...


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## ynot1985 (Jan 10, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Hmmm alrighty, thanks tgfencer. The difference for me on mud generated from wide bevel vs not has been huge. Part of that probably also goes back to pressure used - on these prefinisher/softer finisher level stones, have been working to keep the pressure light since the bevel has already been set, and hard pressure with a slightly too high angle killing my edge is no fun. I'll try a knife on my Oouchi and get a picture soon
> 
> OP- have you considered Khao Men?



I would say to go with the Khao Men too.

fit in between the Ikarashi and Shoubandi

I personally fine mine to be not very muddy at all as compared to my hakka or hideriyama but yet is still fine enough.

best part is that it's so cheap, wouldn't hurt trying it out


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## K813zra (Jan 10, 2017)

ynot1985 said:


> I would say to go with the Khao Men too.
> 
> fit in between the Ikarashi and Shoubandi
> 
> ...



From what I am reading I am unsure of how these will differ from the Tsushima that I have now. They seem to finish and function about the same, at least from the few videos and testimony I have been able to find. Any reason to own both?


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## ynot1985 (Jan 10, 2017)

K813zra said:


> From what I am reading I am unsure of how these will differ from the Tsushima that I have now. They seem to finish and function about the same, at least from the few videos and testimony I have been able to find. Any reason to own both?



I don't own the Tsushima so I cant comment on this.. need some one with both to answer this.. I think Otto (Badgertooth) has both


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## K813zra (Jan 10, 2017)

ynot1985 said:


> I don't own the Tsushima so I cant comment on this.. need some one with both to answer this.. I think Otto (Badgertooth) has both



Guess I will have to see if one of the guys who owns both will chime in. The fellow that sells them compares them direct to Tsushima. In use they seem to have slightly darker mud and produce more of it. Was thinking of something finer. Seems I will have to be more flexible.

I could live with the edge off of my Tsushima without an issue but then I don't get a new stone.:clown:


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## K813zra (Jan 10, 2017)

K813zra said:


> Guess I will have to see if one of the guys who owns both will chime in. The fellow that sells them compares them direct to Tsushima. In use they seem to have slightly darker mud and produce more of it. Was thinking of something finer. Seems I will have to be more flexible.
> 
> I could live with the edge off of my Tsushima without an issue but then I don't get a new stone.:clown:



I guess my time to edit the post is up so I guess I will have to quote myself.

I found Badgers review and it seems that the stone is less like Tsushima than what I first gathered. Seems to be a wee bit finer and softer and loads muddier. That is a killer for me. But I will read the rest of the thread before I say that its out. Maybe I am looking for a white whale.


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## ynot1985 (Jan 10, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I guess my time to edit the post is up so I guess I will have to quote myself.
> 
> I found Badgers review and it seems that the stone is less like Tsushima than what I first gathered. Seems to be a wee bit finer and softer and loads muddier. That is a killer for me. But I will read the rest of the thread before I say that its out. Maybe I am looking for a white whale.



I guess the level of muddiness like hardness is a very subjective area.
What I preceived to be not a lot of mud may be perceived by others to be plenty and vice versa.
it's really hard to tell unless you actually test the stones at a shop/store and but I think it's too hard to fit the requirements by just buying blindly online


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## foody518 (Jan 10, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I guess my time to edit the post is up so I guess I will have to quote myself.
> 
> I found Badgers review and it seems that the stone is less like Tsushima than what I first gathered. Seems to be a wee bit finer and softer and loads muddier. That is a killer for me. But I will read the rest of the thread before I say that its out. Maybe I am looking for a white whale.



If you are sharpening on narrow bevels you will not kick up anything like a thick mud without a nagura. It feels to me like 3-5k (maybe slightly pushing 5k). I don't know if for example I'd go from a Binsui to an Oouchi though, so I thought about Khao Men or something like it to bridge the gap.


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## K813zra (Jan 10, 2017)

ynot1985 said:


> I guess the level of muddiness like hardness is a very subjective area.
> What I preceived to be not a lot of mud may be perceived by others to be plenty and vice versa.
> it's really hard to tell unless you actually test the stones at a shop/store and but I think it's too hard to fit the requirements by just buying blindly online



Yeah, I figured. Going to a shop to test out a natural is not something that I can do, sadly. Seems I will have to stay on the harder side to get what I am after. I think I am just going to have to get an Ohira Suita and test that out and if it is harder than I like try something softer.


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## foody518 (Jan 10, 2017)

Mute-on said:


> As others have said, Hakka, Takashima, Hideriyama. I would say a JNS 2.5 would be perfect. The Hakka will likely be muddier than the other two. I have the Takashima that Maksim used to finish a Mukimono in one of his videos. It is very refined without being glassy.
> I would also suggest an Aiiwatani Koppa at a JNS 3.0 or even 2.5. I have a 3.0 and it is noticeably harder than my other 2.5 stones. I would liken it to a razor pre-finisher, though I do not use a straight.
> The best alternative in an all in one would be an Ohira Suita JNS 3.5. Hard, fast, not glassy, amazing. These are getting up in dollars but I suggest replace two stones in a progression, and are worth it.
> 
> You've opened the can now ...



Do you feel the Ohira Suita can completely bridge the gap from something like Binsui?


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## Mute-on (Jan 10, 2017)

I don't have a Binsui to answer that difinitively. 

The Ohira Suita cuts very fast for its hardness/fineness due to the Su (holes). However, the scratch pattern it leaves is very fine and MAY not erase the deeper scratches from a Binsui. An intermediate stone such as an aoto or equivalent MAY be required. 

Comments on a full Jnat progression are in the JNAT Club thread, amongst other places on the forum. 

Cheers

J


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## ynot1985 (Jan 10, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Do you feel the Ohira Suita can completely bridge the gap from something like Binsui?



isn't binsui meant to be really coarse? my gut feeling would say no


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## foody518 (Jan 10, 2017)

My understanding of the thrust of the initial post was to find something to bridge the gap from Naka-to to a harder Jnat finisher for knives. Question was trying to dig at whether Ohira Suita is capable of being more of filling in the existing gap and taking out that coarse scratch pattern, or if it is closer to the existing finisher



ynot1985 said:


> isn't binsui meant to be really coarse? my gut feeling would say no


Not quite the same, but my Thai white Binsui I would guesstimate is somewhere in the 1.5-2k range.


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## ynot1985 (Jan 10, 2017)

foody518 said:


> My understanding of the thrust of the initial post was to find something to bridge the gap from Naka-to to a harder Jnat finisher for knives. Question was trying to dig at whether Ohira Suita is capable of being more of filling in the existing gap and taking out that coarse scratch pattern, or if it is closer to the existing finisher
> 
> 
> Not quite the same, but my Thai white Binsui I would guesstimate is somewhere in the 1.5-2k range.



ah right.. I thought u meant Japanese Binsui


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## foody518 (Jan 10, 2017)

@ynot1985 I would not be surprised if they are similar to the Japanese stones referred to as Binsui from Amakusa


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## Badgertooth (Jan 11, 2017)

A bit late to this, sorry. Aizu is about the only thing that I can think of to plug the gap that isn't a mudfest. And it does it very well. I was thinking Aiiwatani but that would finish as fine or finer than the yaginoshima, they're soft but not midgrit or prefinish at all. Ohira strikes me as too fine to bridge that gap and too close to the yaginoshima. You could go full left field and be the first on the forum write up a stone called an inutaba. These finish 3 - 4k and are not especially muddy. Finding one is another story.


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## jklip13 (Jan 11, 2017)

Koma can take you from 1k to a hard Suita in not too much time


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## K813zra (Jan 11, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> A bit late to this, sorry. Aizu is about the only thing that I can think of to plug the gap that isn't a mudfest. And it does it very well. I was thinking Aiiwatani but that would finish as fine or finer than the yaginoshima, they're soft but not midgrit or prefinish at all. Ohira strikes me as too fine to bridge that gap and too close to the yaginoshima. You could go full left field and be the first on the forum write up a stone called an inutaba. These finish 3 - 4k and are not especially muddy. Finding one is another story.



Maybe I misrepresented what I wanted. I am not so much looking for something to bridge the gap, rather something to use instead of the Yaginoshima. I just meant that it was okay if it finished a little coarser than the Yaginoshima. 

We just took the conversation a different direction.:lol2:


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## Unstoppabo (Jan 11, 2017)

Going back to the Khao Men, you could use it wet to the point where mud development is inhibited and get a very even, working edge with quite a bit of bite. Mine is harder and less muddy than my hideriyama and using it wet with light pressure actually polishes okay


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## Badgertooth (Jan 12, 2017)

You're on the right track with Ohira awasedo then and mizukihara is also a great option along those lines. And softer Aiiwatani then becomes a great choice too. But you'd still a need some sort of stepping stone from binsu or Ikarashi up to that alternate finisher.


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## K813zra (Jan 12, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> You're on the right track with Ohira awasedo then and mizukihara is also a great option along those lines. And softer Aiiwatani then becomes a great choice too. But you'd still a need some sort of stepping stone from binsu or Ikarashi up to that alternate finisher.



Okay, I think I have the idea now. Thank you!


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## K813zra (Jan 13, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> You're on the right track with Ohira awasedo then and mizukihara is also a great option along those lines. And softer Aiiwatani then becomes a great choice too. But you'd still a need some sort of stepping stone from binsu or Ikarashi up to that alternate finisher.



As an update, after speaking with Mr. Watanabe I have decided to pick up an Aizu. We sent a few exchanges and he suggested one to me. I am just waiting for a confirmation email. Time difference and all.

He does suggest that this is a difficult stone to use but didn't get into a lot of detail, though. Guess I will have to spend some time with it.


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## Badgertooth (Jan 13, 2017)

Good choice! They are hard for midgrit stones. But his advice is golden - work behind the edge first to work up a little togidoro then keep things moving with a little water before you hit the edge. It feels "scrapier" than it is, and actually leaves a very nice looking finish. Let us know how you get on with it.


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## K813zra (Jan 13, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> Good choice! They are hard for midgrit stones. But his advice is golden - work behind the edge first to work up a little togidoro then keep things moving with a little water before you hit the edge. It feels "scrapier" than it is, and actually leaves a very nice looking finish. Let us know how you get on with it.



I will report back for sure. He suggested a particular stone to me because he felt it was faster than the others and would be better for a beginner. It is interesting to hear that you feel they are harder for a mid grit as he says they are quite soft but that might be relative to stones in general. I think the hardest feeling mid grit is my Tajima but I am not so sure that it is as hard as it feels, maybe more of a dense feeling.


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## K813zra (Jan 14, 2017)

Okay, all done and stones will be on their way. I assume they will ship Monday as I do not know if they ship at the weekends in Japan. Anyway, I ended up with #2 Ikarashi (I know it is a narrow stone but I was drawn to it and I already work with a few stones that size.) and #10 Aizu (a very pretty stone and I am told it is fast compared to the others). I will let you know more when I get them. 

This is addictive. I already have Omura(wakayama), Aoto, Monzento, Tajima and Yaginoshima Asagi. I think I am covered for mid range now. After a few months I think it will be time to get something else in the finer range. Maybe a softer Ohira Tomae or Suita. Good thing for me that I have a birthday coming up!


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## K813zra (Jan 19, 2017)

So, I got my stones from Watanabe today. Both the Ikarashi and the Aizu but there is a third stone and I only ordered two. Now, every time I have ordered from Mr. Watanabe I always get an extra gift but it is normally something like a towel etc. I am guessing this is a large tomo for the Aizu?

Aizu (left) Ikarashi (middle) Tomo? (right)

I will send an email thanking Mr. Watanabe for the extra and confirming.:lol2: They look and feel rather similar.

Edit: Sorry for the phone photo, I am no photographer. 
And I got the stones in 5 days! Tracking says they are still in Tokyo, lol.


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## tgfencer (Jan 19, 2017)

Let us know what you think after you've had the chance to use it. Watanabe is a good guy, I've heard its quite common for him to throw in a freebie.


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## K813zra (Jan 19, 2017)

tgfencer said:


> Let us know what you think after you've had the chance to use it. Watanabe is a good guy, I've heard its quite common for him to throw in a freebie.



Yeah he is a good guy to work with. I just want to make sure it should be used as a nagura before using it that way. They look similar enough and feel similar but the smaller stone has a more coarse feel but that is because it has a saw kerf on all sides.


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## tgfencer (Jan 19, 2017)

Probably a good idea, doesnt hurt to double check!


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## K813zra (Jan 19, 2017)

tgfencer said:


> Probably a good idea, doesnt hurt to double check!



Yep, sent an email thanking him and asking. It is the size of a small sharpening stone! Almost 6x2.


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## foody518 (Jan 19, 2017)

Nice! Help ya kick up a little loose grit on that Aizu


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## K813zra (Jan 19, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Nice! Help ya kick up a little loose grit on that Aizu



I can't wait to give it a try! It feels a lot smoother than I was expecting. 

Any suggestions on whether or not I should seal it? I have yet to seal any of my stones. The only stones that are lacquered came that way. I have the thread on how to seal a stone saved but I live in the middle of nowhere and it looks like I will have to order de-waxed shellac as or local big box stores do not sell it. Well, lowes does but in 5gal...I can have it shipped to the store though.


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## K813zra (Jan 19, 2017)

Okay, everyone asked me to report in on how I like the new stones. I tried both the Ikarashi and the Aizu but I have not touched the smaller, what I assume to be, nagura as of yet.

Ikarashi: This stone is straight forward. It feels smooth to the touch but gritty in use. It is fast to produce swarf but is not aggressive. That is a little deceptive as it seems like you are removing more metal than you are. Regardless, it is fast enough and leaves an edge somewhere in the 1k+/- range. Very toothy edge that would be great on a petty or Suji but I am sure I am not telling you anything that you do not already know. Not fast enough for me to want to start on, though. Perfect to follow my Omura, which is what I wanted!

Aizu: This one is deceptive. It does not feel dense, it is quite light. It feels uber smooth to the touch but it is aggressive as all get out! 1 stroke and I already have swarf but no mud. The stone is a lot, and I mean a lot, harder than I expected. It does not have give like my Tajima does. The stone, at least on the edge of a narrow bevel, has less feedback than other mid grit stones that I have but more than something like my Yaginoshima Asagi. The edge it leaves has just enough tooth for me and yet it is refined. It will push cut newsprint and paper towel (not free hanging) but you have to go slow. I will put the knives to the board tonight and see what they feel like. Mr. Watanabe puts the Tajima at about 2k (I'd say coarser) and if that is the case this is more like 3k. I don't really like comparing to synthetic edges though because they cut differently. I mean, it is sharp similar to a 3k but a different kind of sharp.

The knives used were as follows:

Rada Santoku: 420 at about 52 
Suisin WI Gyuto: AUS8 58 +/-
Tojiro ITK: White #2 60+/-

Both stones abrade stainless, at least these two basic types, without issue. I don't have anything more alloyed to test out as I use primarily White/Blue #2.

Just remember, I am by no means one of the better sharpeners out there and new to naturals so these stones may give even better results to someone more skilled. What I can say is that I am happy with both of them!


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## aboynamedsuita (Jan 19, 2017)

Thanks for the write up. I'm 99% certain that's a mini Aizu at least mine was. I got it as a gift with my aoto





Shinichi told me he included them as gifts for some customers. He also told me about using:


> The Aizu also got from family of Aizu miner directly. You can use it as Nagura for Aoto and synthetic medium fine stones. The miner taught it to us.
> Also please try to sharpen your knives on Aizu. Aizu is finer medium stone than Aoto.



Then when I later purchased a larger aoto the markings were the same.


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## K813zra (Jan 19, 2017)

aboynamedsuita said:


> Thanks for the write up. I'm 99% certain that's a mini Aizu at least mine was. I got it as a gift with my aoto
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you! It is large enough to use as a travel stone too. 

Edit: Yep, I got an email back and it is a small Aizu. Shinichi just said it was a gift for me and that I can use it as a Tomo or to sharpen smaller knives. No mystery now!


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## tgfencer (Jan 19, 2017)

I'd seal the Aizu. Its easy and relatively quick to do as long as you aren't going the cashew lacquer route that I see no reason not too. Shellac, marine grade lacquer, spar urethane, nail polish etc all do the trick. You can either get them in cans and paintbrush it on or the spray-can variety. Just be sure to tape up the sharpening surface beforehand, lapping off spilled lacquer can be a pain.


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## K813zra (Jan 19, 2017)

tgfencer said:


> I'd seal the Aizu. Its easy and relatively quick to do as long as you aren't going the cashew lacquer route that I see no reason not too. Shellac, marine grade lacquer, spar urethane, nail polish etc all do the trick. You can either get them in cans and paintbrush it on or the spray-can variety. Just be sure to tape up the sharpening surface beforehand, lapping off spilled lacquer can be a pain.



Thank you for the advice! We have spray Shellac here at the local hardware store but it does not say if it is de-waxed. I had read in an old thread here that you should use de-waxed. Any idea if spray shellac would be okay to use? And no worries, I have loads of painters tape!


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## aboynamedsuita (Jan 19, 2017)

I used cashew on mine, but agree about using the painters tape I learned that lesson the hard way and have been lapping my stones bit by bit as time allows


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## tgfencer (Jan 19, 2017)

Not sure about waxed vs unwaxed shellac, sorry, but I'm sure someone can chime in. Cashew is traditional and looks really cool to my mind, but just know what you are getting into before you decide. I'm a bit too lazy for that method personally. I prefer marine grade lacquer and spar urethane, easier to locate and cheaper. Oh and if you have stamps of anything on the side you want to be able to see later on, make sure you use something clear.


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## K813zra (Jan 19, 2017)

tgfencer said:


> Not sure about waxed vs unwaxed shellac, sorry, but I'm sure someone can chime in. Cashew is traditional and looks really cool to my mind, but just know what you are getting into before you decide. I'm a bit too lazy for that method personally. I prefer marine grade lacquer and spar urethane, easier to locate and cheaper. Oh and if you have stamps of anything on the side you want to be able to see later on, make sure you use something clear.



Is the Spar urethane Minwax indoor/outdoor clear stain? If so I can pick that up locally without an issue. Thanks again, I will make sure to get clear as some of my stones do have stamps on the sides and or bottoms.


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## tgfencer (Jan 19, 2017)

Essentially, yes, its just a type of polyurethane and from my understanding pretty much any type of polyurethane will do. You can find a variety of brands in places like Home Depot, Lowes, and probably any hardware store. (I have a Mini-wax Helmsman can at the moment I believe). Oh and if you do end up using shellac (and I think you are right about the wanting the non-wax variety) take a look at this link and post #24 in particular. 

http://straightrazorplace.com/hones/64627-ozuku-jnat-problem-using-shellac-3.html


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## K813zra (Jan 19, 2017)

tgfencer said:


> Essentially, yes, its just a type of polyurethane and from my understanding pretty much any type of polyurethane will do. You can find a variety of brands in places like Home Depot, Lowes, and probably any hardware store. (I have a Mini-wax Helmsman can at the moment I believe). Oh and if you do end up using shellac (and I think you are right about the wanting the non-wax variety) take a look at this link and post #24 in particular.
> 
> http://straightrazorplace.com/hones/64627-ozuku-jnat-problem-using-shellac-3.html



Thanks, reading it now. Minwax Helmsman is exactly what is available locally so that is not an issue. It is inexpensive too.


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## K813zra (Jan 20, 2017)

As an update: In my email Mr. Watanabe told me to try sharpening with the mini Aizu to see what I thought of it. I flattened it last night as it was rough cut and let it sit. I used it this morning and it is fairly different than the larger one. I will note before I say how it was different that I did smooth it out on the larger Aizu after flattening. Anyway, the smaller stone is very aggressive and grips the edge much more than the larger stone. I had a puddle of black swarf long before I had white mud settling on the surface. This stone is also coarser. If we compare the larger stone to a 3(ish)k synthetic then this one is closer to 1500. I would say more similar to the Tajima but much more aggressive. It leaves an edge with an insane amount of bite. Honestly, I think I could follow the little Aizu with the larger one in progression and treat them as different stones. What a useful gift!


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## foody518 (Jan 20, 2017)

Cool stuff. Have you tried sharpening yet using the smaller one as a tomo on the larger Aizu?


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## K813zra (Jan 20, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Cool stuff. Have you tried sharpening yet using the smaller one as a tomo on the larger Aizu?



Yep, I just got done doing two more sessions. One on the Aizu with nagura and one on the Mini as the results were not sitting well with me. 

Large Aizu: With tomo this improves the sharpening feeling a lot. It cuts even faster to start off, this is already an aggressive stone but seems to get finer faster with slurry. The mud is white. I did not seem to get a different edge quality though, still around 3kish.

Mini Aizu: This one is still more aggressive than the larger stone but I worked the bevel much longer and it seems to have given me a more refined edge. It is still coarser than the larger stone but I took off some of that bite. It feels that the edge is a little closer to the larger stone now but still behind it. That is not a bad thing depending on what you want to do. What I can say is that I like this little stone a lot and the fact that it was a gift makes it even more special because honestly I think it is my favorite of the three stones that came in the mail yesterday! Dulling my edge on a brick I can bring it back with this stone and then continue until it is refined (don't cringe as it is just a Tojiro that I use for practice). It is a great one stone solution if needed, at least in terms of keeping the edge touched up between full progressions.

I will have to take some more photos even though I am not good at that sort of thing. I want to share my enthusiasm for this stone. The swarf just puddles up instantly but slowly over time it releases a thin milky colored mud that refuses to dry up or thicken even when the stone itself starts to dry out. The mud mixes with the swarf and turns a grey color and then it seems to slow down, it may just seem this way as I can no longer see the swarf due to the color of the mud or maybe that is just the way natural stones work. Again, I am new at this and I don't think I have resonated with a stone like I have with this one. I just couldn't stop and had to pull out more knives. 

I don't want to get too excited just yet. I need to test it on other steels over time to make sure I am not just jumping for joy over a new stone.


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## Badgertooth (Jan 20, 2017)




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## K813zra (Jan 20, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


>



I'm glad you all suggested it to me! It was not at the top of my radar but the overwhelming votes for the stone gave me that itch and I couldn't be happier.


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## Krassi (Jan 20, 2017)

Ah nice! Shinichi also mentioned a small Aizu that he added too my package.. so lets see what to do with that nice small Aizu!


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## K813zra (Jan 20, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Ah nice! Shinichi also mentioned a small Aizu that he added too my package.. so lets see what to do with that nice small Aizu!



If yours is like mine, it may be small but it is big enough to sharpen on. About 150x50.


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## Krassi (Jan 20, 2017)

Hiho! 

@K813zra
No need to sharpen on it because i have a really excellent bricksize vintage Aizu  (210x70x60mm)

But ill try it as a Tomo Nagura on the other Aizu.
On my Finishers it would be to coarse.. i have a pure white Koma Nagura that rocks the house (supposed to be from Iwasaki collection)

Ok well Shinichi told me that this size is too big for a Nagura.. i tried my 160x50 very good Nakayama Koppa and Okudo kuro renge Suita Koppa as a Nagura, but nope ..no fun and sticks on the other stone because its to big.
But Aizu on Aizu could be fun or on my Ikarashi.. 

Seeya, Daniel


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## K813zra (Jan 20, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Hiho!
> 
> @K813zra
> No need to sharpen on it because i have a really excellent bricksize vintage Aizu  (210x70x60mm)
> ...



Okay, I see. For me it seems like it will make a great travel stone!


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## K813zra (Jan 21, 2017)

So, here I am hunting all over and going from store to store, town to town to try to find wax free Shellac. I must have gone to 15 stores with no luck at all. Even though I saw online that it would say wax free on the front of the can, I checked the back and I would ask every clerk but nothing came of it. Then it hit me, lets take a look on the back of the Shellac that comes in a spray can...sure enough the spray version is wax free, at every store, which made me feel like a real idiot. Apparently the sales personnel had no idea either but I expect that at big box stores. Anyway, I would have rather got the paint on stuff in a can but the spray seems to work fine from what I have read in numerous threads and it was on clearance sale for $4, which saved me some money but it also means that I will likely have to go store hopping to find it again when the need arises. 

Anyway, I am going to clean up the stones tomorrow and let them dry for a day or two and seal them all, not just the Aizu. Why not, the cost of a can was negligible so why not. 

So as a takeaway, all Shellac (that I could find anyway) in a spray can is wax free. Had I thought about this I would have known that as my grandmother used it on her ceramics. Mud spelled backwards and all that.


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## chinacats (Jan 21, 2017)

K813zra said:


> So, here I am hunting all over and going from store to store, town to town to try to find wax free Shellac. I must have gone to 15 stores with no luck at all. Even though I saw online that it would say wax free on the front of the can, I checked the back and I would ask every clerk but nothing came of it. Then it hit me, lets take a look on the back of the Shellac that comes in a spray can...sure enough the spray version is wax free, at every store, which made me feel like a real idiot. Apparently the sales personnel had no idea either but I expect that at big box stores. Anyway, I would have rather got the paint on stuff in a can but the spray seems to work fine from what I have read in numerous threads and it was on clearance sale for $4, which saved me some money but it also means that I will likely have to go store hopping to find it again when the need arises.
> 
> Anyway, I am going to clean up the stones tomorrow and let them dry for a day or two and seal them all, not just the Aizu. Why not, the cost of a can was negligible so why not.
> 
> So as a takeaway, all Shellac (that I could find anyway) in a spray can is wax free. Had I thought about this I would have known that as my grandmother used it on her ceramics. Mud spelled backwards and all that.



I believe you should be able to find the dry flakes which you then dissolve in ethyl alcohol.


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## K813zra (Jan 22, 2017)

chinacats said:


> I believe you should be able to find the dry flakes which you then dissolve in ethyl alcohol.



I can order them online, same with the standard wax free shellac but I was being stubborn and want to see what I could find semi-local. Sadly we don't have any old school paint/supply/hardware type stores around here. Walmart came in and that all went out years ago. In surrounding towns we have other big box stores such as lowes and homedepot but I couldn't find any there either. The good news is that it seems people have success using the spray on kind.


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## Omega (Jan 22, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Hiho!
> 
> @K813zra
> No need to sharpen on it because i have a really excellent bricksize vintage Aizu  (210x70x60mm)
> ...



Good Lord that vintage Aizu is gorgeous


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## aboynamedsuita (Jan 22, 2017)

Just checked out Watanabe's page and it looks like he got a bunch of Aizu in recently. If I didn't grab one back around Xmas I'd be giving them a closer look


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## Krassi (Jan 22, 2017)

Hiho!

and Thanks @Omega !
Its the only middle grit Jnat i would use forever if i could only use one .. Actually on the photo you are looking at the side of that stone ) well it was just 60mm wide but 70 height.. so i just hit the side with the dmt.. and holy moly the side was awesome.. easy to use,very hard, super fast, awesome finish and great sharpness that would be enough for kitchenknifes .. and was cheap as f... i really love that stone! 

Yeah Watanabe has some very good looking Aizus, they look very good and clean... 
well i am interested how the Aizu works as a Nagura on another Aizu or if DMT is better.. because with slurry this thing fires the turboboost 

Also Ikarashis are like from the neighborhood and i still dondt figure out wich one is finer ( i got 2 Ikarashis)

Seeya, daniel


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## Omega (Jan 22, 2017)

aboynamedsuita said:


> Just checked out Watanabe's page and it looks like he got a bunch of Aizu in recently. If I didn't grab one back around Xmas I'd be giving them a closer look



Nods- I think they went up around the first week of January? I have one on the way  

@Krassi Jimminy that is a big stone.. Definitely got me jealous ;D Happy to hear you like it's performance so much!


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## K813zra (Jan 22, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Hiho!
> 
> and Thanks @Omega !
> Its the only middle grit Jnat i would use forever if i could only use one .. Actually on the photo you are looking at the side of that stone ) well it was just 60mm wide but 70 height.. so i just hit the side with the dmt.. and holy moly the side was awesome.. easy to use,very hard, super fast, awesome finish and great sharpness that would be enough for kitchenknifes .. and was cheap as f... i really love that stone!
> ...



Yep, I think I am in the same boat. If I could only have one it would be the Aizu, I really love this stone (both of them)! I have not had it long but it has left a much better impression on me than other mid grits. 

Question: When you say you can not figure out which is finer are you saying that you are unsure which of your Ikarashi are finer or you are unsure if your Aizu or Ikarashi is finer? I ask because I have an Ikarashi as well and mine is significantly coarser than my Aizu.


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## Krassi (Jan 23, 2017)

Hiho!

@K813zra
Yep same here.. my two Ikarashis seem coarser.. well its getting smoother after some DMT lapping but still both feel much coarser and also faster.. So there are Ikarashis that are said to be finer, but not in my case. the Aizu is much finer.

Oh i also got my Watanabe package today ) there was a nice Aizu inside.
Seeya Daniel


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## krx927 (Jan 25, 2017)

A lot of talk about Aizus lately. Tempted to try one.

Can you tell me if this is the stone to use after Chosera 1000 and before my Aka renge finisher?


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## foody518 (Jan 25, 2017)

Yeah it can certainly fit in that range


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## zoze (Jan 25, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Hiho!
> 
> @K813zra
> Yep same here.. my two Ikarashis seem coarser.. well its getting smoother after some DMT lapping but still both feel much coarser and also faster.. So there are Ikarashis that are said to be finer, but not in my case. the Aizu is much finer.
> ...



Same here: Aizu is finer than Ikarashi.


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## K813zra (Jan 25, 2017)

Speaking of which, it seems that Ikarashi and Aizu have become even more of a hot commodity as Shin has given both of them their own page. Sometimes I wonder just how many stones he has, lol.


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## zoze (Jan 25, 2017)

K813zra said:


> Speaking of which, it seems that Ikarashi and Aizu have become even more of a hot commodity as Shin has given both of them their own page. Sometimes I wonder just how many stones he has, lol.



There might be other sources.


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## Krassi (Jan 26, 2017)

Hi heres the one from Shinichi
its 2 two in one stone with two glued together.. i didnt recognize this first and you dondt feel any line or anything.
140x90mm this way, actually very useful and very good quality !


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## foody518 (Jan 26, 2017)

@Krassi that's cool, love wider stones


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## Badgertooth (Jan 26, 2017)

Also arrived today. I keenly felt the loss of the Aizu that Foody got.


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## K813zra (Jan 26, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> View attachment 34342
> 
> 
> Also arrived today. I keenly felt the loss of the Aizu that Foody got.



That is a looker, for sure!


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## Krassi (Jan 26, 2017)

Yeah looks like the Godfather of Aizu !
..Don Aizu! )


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## foody518 (Jan 26, 2017)

Glad you were able to grab another


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## panda (Jan 27, 2017)

i like how this thread went from finisher to a thread about aizus  which is funny because i'm pretty sure asteger and i are the only ones who actually use aizu as a finisher.


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## K813zra (Jan 27, 2017)

panda said:


> i like how this thread went from finisher to a thread about aizus  which is funny because i'm pretty sure asteger and i are the only ones who actually use aizu as a finisher.



I have been converted, at least for the time being. I only have one finisher, though. I guess that might change when I try out more or it might not.


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## tgfencer (Jan 27, 2017)

I also like my Aizu, which I nabbed off Asteger a while back, as a finisher. It all depends on the level of finish and toothiness you're going for. I actually think not much I've used can compete with it in the finish range it occupies.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jan 27, 2017)

Damn, now I'm thinking I need an ikarashi. Notwithstanding that jnats can vary, but that would be kinda redundant with an aoto and Aizu, correct?


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## panda (Jan 27, 2017)

Even if redundant it never hurts to try.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jan 27, 2017)

True, I'll have to see if I get anything for a tax return this year


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## Omega (Jan 27, 2017)

While certainly not an expert in stones, I can repeat some of what my conversation with Shinichi consisted of.

He spoke a lot of 1000 grit synthetic, and then moving to Aoto. After that was the decision of Ikarashi or Aizu. He mentioned more redundancy between those two specifically, as opposed to Ikarashi overriding Aoto AND Aizu. 

When I initially expressed interest in his (then) only Aizu, he actually tried to steer me away from it, in favor of Ikarashi saying "I find it [ikarashi] much more consistent then Aizu". I will admit, I didn't press him more on that, to understand fully what he meant- whether it was more consistent stone to stone, or more consistent during a single session.

In asking him about my intended progression, AI#1000, Aoto, Aizu, Ohira Shiro Suita- he just said that he thought it was very good. He said were I to sub in the Ikarashi, I should do
AI#1000 > Aoto > Ikarashi > Ohira. I'm sure a person could skip any step in there and it would be fine- but people who are more knowledgeable would have to comment on that.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jan 27, 2017)

I have one on my want list now, kinda tapped out for awhile though (see newest knife but for explanation )


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## Omega (Jan 27, 2017)

No worries- it looks like Shinichi has quiiiite a few. And if for some reason he runs out, I actually have two, and PROBABLY could be persuaded to part with one ;D

And damn on my way over to see that beauty now~


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## panda (Jan 27, 2017)

omega that makes no sense to me. the ikarashi's that shinichi offers must be of the finer kind because the one i had from JNS was more like 1-2k grit.


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## Omega (Jan 28, 2017)

@Panda Interesting! I'll be the first to admit, I am certainly no stone expert, and you could very well be right. I can only relay on what Shinichi and I spoke of. In an incredibly subjective testing-the-grit-with-my-finger, the Ikarashi feels smoother than my Aoto.. But that's as good as I can give you for now : /


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## valgard (Jan 28, 2017)

panda said:


> omega that makes no sense to me. the ikarashi's that shinichi offers must be of the finer kind because the one i had from JNS was more like 1-2k grit.



He says in the description (at the top) that those stones are medium fine grit.


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## K813zra (Jan 28, 2017)

My experience with Ikarashi is the same as panda's about 1500 grit +/-. My Aoto stones are more or less in this range as well, maybe a little coarser but not enough so to use them before Ikarashi.

Edit: I got my Ikarashi from Watanabe.


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## panda (Jan 28, 2017)

my old vintage aoto (now in possession by asteger) was 5k range. that's a huge range of variation from 1.5k-5k


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## K813zra (Jan 28, 2017)

panda said:


> my old vintage aoto (now in possession by asteger) was 5k range. that's a huge range of variation from 1.5k-5k



My two Aoto stones are cheap stones that I took a gamble on. Around $80 a piece and I was told before I got them that they were not quality vintage aoto's. They are greyish brown and about 1200-1500(ish) when compared to synthetics. I think a lot of these stones are floating around. I see them on MM all the time, for example. They are good working stones for what they are and gave me an idea of what I wanted to look for in a stone. I leave one at my grandfathers house and the other at my parents house to touch up their Fujiwara knives that I gifted them. 

Someday I will have to hunt for a good vintage aoto like you mention but it is not a priority.


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## ynot1985 (Jan 28, 2017)

I'm in the same boat, but I kind of given up. Hard to find that vintage aoto without trying it first. I was told by a store in Japan that the stone distributors rang out of the finer aotos about 30 years ago and most of the aotos nowadays aren't as good.. I have been burnt a few times myself so I'm now going to stick with aizus and finishing stones instead


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## K813zra (Jan 28, 2017)

ynot1985 said:


> I'm in the same boat, but I kind of given up. Hard to find that vintage aoto without trying it first. I was told by a store in Japan that the stone distributors rang out of the finer aotos about 30 years ago and most of the aotos nowadays aren't as good.. I have been burnt a few times myself so I'm now going to stick with aizus and finishing stones instead



Well, I know what you mean but I would not say I was burnt as I knew the stones I was getting into were of lesser quality and their price reflected that. One of my stones was listed as an Aono aoto and the other as a Tanba aoto, both of which are likely in the 1200-1500 grit range but coarser than my Iakrash at the very least. They are fast cutting stones that are quite pleasurable to use. If they were that pleasurable to use but finer, I would be in heaven. Soft for a natural and oh so creamy with loads of feedback. I wonder though, if the vintage aoto's are so much finer they are likely harder too, which I think might take away from the experience. 

At the end of the day, I don't have a natural stone that I don't like. It is just that I like some more than others. This sure has become addictive, to say the least. 

(I will have to read this and see if it makes sense at a later date...I had a bit to drink while preparing dinner, lol.)


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