# Toyama Noborikoi sharpening/bevel question



## youkinorn (Apr 19, 2016)

Picked up a 210 Toyama Noborikoi gyuto from Maksim recently and took it to the stones. I knew I'd make a mess of the nice finish, but wanted to learn what I could about the knife and my first couple natural stones (a Big Tsushima Nagura and an Aiiwatani Asagi Lvl 3). Started on a beston 1200 and then moved to the Aiiwatani then the Tsushima, though the two naturals seem fairly similar in relative grit size. 

There was a pretty obvious large bevel that went from about 1/3 to 1/2 way up the height of the blade to about 1mm from the edgeit was clear from using the magic marker trick. But there were some large gaps/low spots along that bevel, which you can see in the pictures below. The largest area is a big swath on the heel end of the knife on one side (left side of first pic). I think I saw someone mention these knives having some sort of S-grind, which would obviously cause some missed spots like this, but it seems like they'd be more consistent. 

My main question is, I guess, do you guys think this is a case of an intentional S-grind, or is it just inconsistencies in the grind? It's not really an issue from a happiness perspectivethe knife cuts great, is beautiful to me (even with the finish all mucked up), and is tons of fun to usejust sort of interested from an educational standpoint.

And when I do decide to try to bring back the nice kasumi finish, I'm guessing some wet-dry sand paper would be a good starting point before moving on to finger stones, right? 

Thanks in advance.


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## YG420 (Apr 20, 2016)

My understanding from So-san's (japan-tool) write ups about single bevels is that he hasnt come across a single bevel knife that doesnt have low spots with the onky exception being shigefusa.


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## skewed (Apr 20, 2016)

Disclaimer: I do not have a ton of experience with thinning.

Bravo for jumping in like this! Best way to learn some more advanced sharpening skills. Were you wanting to thin the knife out behind the edge? When I thin a knife, I usually use a pretty coarse stone (bester 500). To clean up the scratches I turn to wet/dry sand paper. Starting with 320 and working up to 600 or 1200. I would guess finger stones would be used for a more re-find look or to focus on the hagane or jigane. I usually just use 15mmx15mm scraps of wet/dry to get the finish looking acceptable to me. I use my knives in a commercial setting (hard use), so I am not very finicky.

Cheers,
rj


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## JBroida (Apr 20, 2016)

YG420 said:


> My understanding from So-san's (japan-tool) write ups about single bevels is that he hasnt come across a single bevel knife that doesnt have low spots with the onky exception being shigefusa.



shigefusa has them too... its not to say they are extreme, or even a bad thing, but they are there.


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## YG420 (Apr 20, 2016)

JBroida said:


> shigefusa has them too... its not to say they are extreme, or even a bad thing, but they are there.



Ok i see...by the way, great recommendation on maple block meat co the other day, brisket was off the hook!


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## XooMG (Apr 20, 2016)

Polishing on stones is a great way to be dissatisfied, because most knives, even very good ones, have some variation in the grind that doesn't affect performance but will show up far too well in polishing. Smaller wobbles can be polished if using a much smaller surface area (fingerstones for example) or a flexible medium, but some are more stubborn.

Some people try to grind out all the wobbles by heavy thinning. I've done this myself, and I'm still tempted to do it sometimes, but it can be a fool's errand, and can cause other problems.

As hypocritical as it makes me to say it, I think you should use a synthetic (i.e. sandpaper, micromesh, etc.) finish until you decide to give it a future thinning (don't rush to thin a good knife...this is a bad habit of mine). The stone finishes might work out later on when the geometry has been worked down a little.


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## youkinorn (Apr 20, 2016)

JBroida said:


> shigefusa has them too... its not to say they are extreme, or even a bad thing, but they are there.



It seems unrealistic for any hand-made object with a bevel to not have some inconsistencies. I know I can reduce how obvious they are aesthetically if it's worth it to me at some point, and that they will work themselves out some over time functionally. Just wondered if my own lack of refined sharpening technique was obscuring an intentionally concave grind in this case.

Thanks for the responses.


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## youkinorn (Apr 20, 2016)

XooMG said:


> Polishing on stones is a great way to be dissatisfied, because most knives, even very good ones, have some variation in the grind that doesn't affect performance but will show up far too well in polishing. Smaller wobbles can be polished if using a much smaller surface area (fingerstones for example) or a flexible medium, but some are more stubborn.
> 
> Some people try to grind out all the wobbles by heavy thinning. I've done this myself, and I'm still tempted to do it sometimes, but it can be a fool's errand, and can cause other problems.
> 
> As hypocritical as it makes me to say it, I think you should use a synthetic (i.e. sandpaper, micromesh, etc.) finish until you decide to give it a future thinning (don't rush to thin a good knife...this is a bad habit of mine). The stone finishes might work out later on when the geometry has been worked down a little.



Basically the conclusion I reached, as well. Seems like for any wider-beveled knife, you'd need to remove quite a bit of metal with the first serious thinning to keep consistent finish just using stones. Thanks for the advice.


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## youkinorn (Apr 20, 2016)

skewed said:


> Disclaimer: I do not have a ton of experience with thinning.
> 
> Bravo for jumping in like this! Best way to learn some more advanced sharpening skills. Were you wanting to thin the knife out behind the edge? When I thin a knife, I usually use a pretty coarse stone (bester 500). To clean up the scratches I turn to wet/dry sand paper. Starting with 320 and working up to 600 or 1200. I would guess finger stones would be used for a more re-find look or to focus on the hagane or jigane. I usually just use 15mmx15mm scraps of wet/dry to get the finish looking acceptable to me. I use my knives in a commercial setting (hard use), so I am not very finicky.
> 
> ...



It doesn't need serious thinning by any stretch of the imagination. I was mostly just messing around and curious about the geometry of the knife. Aesthetics aren't the most important thing for me, so I didn't have too much to lose haha


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## JBroida (Apr 20, 2016)

YG420 said:


> Ok i see...by the way, great recommendation on maple block meat co the other day, brisket was off the hook!



for real though, right? Plus, you can always walk to titos if you're still hungry


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## YG420 (Apr 20, 2016)

JBroida said:


> for real though, right? Plus, you can always walk to titos if you're still hungry



Lol my girl wanted to get some tacos to take to the househahaha!


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## youkinorn (Apr 21, 2016)

Just picked up this pack of micro mesh pads to try out. Hoping I can cut them down a bit smaller without any negative side effects.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ELH7AI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And thanks for the collateral restaurant recsI'm in LA for work fairly often.


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## JBroida (Apr 22, 2016)

youkinorn said:


> Just picked up this pack of micro mesh pads to try out. Hoping I can cut them down a bit smaller without any negative side effects.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ELH7AI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> And thanks for the collateral restaurant recsI'm in LA for work fairly often.



anytime you have restaurant questions, feel free to bug me


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## youkinorn (Apr 22, 2016)

JBroida said:


> anytime you have restaurant questions, feel free to bug me



appreciate it. I want to swing by the store next time I'm out, too. Usually in Santa Monica or West Hollywood.


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## youkinorn (Apr 22, 2016)

spent a few minutes with some micro mesh today. Already way better:


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 22, 2016)

You, the micromesh pads are rubbish. You've still got gouges in your blade because you didn't get them out at a lower grit. We've all been there. You need some 220/400/800 grit wet dry paper and a firm backing. Only move to the next grit after all the scratches are gone. Use windex as the lubricant.


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## youkinorn (Apr 23, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> You, the micromesh pads are rubbish. You've still got gouges in your blade because you didn't get them out at a lower grit. We've all been there. You need some 220/400/800 grit wet dry paper and a firm backing. Only move to the next grit after all the scratches are gone. Use windex as the lubricant.



Yep, you're definitely right. And I honestly knew they wouldn't be low enough grit to start. The knife looks better and feels better to the touch, but it's certainly not a consistent finish. I'll keep you guys updated on this haphazard journey haha.


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## youkinorn (Apr 26, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> You, the micromesh pads are rubbish. You've still got gouges in your blade because you didn't get them out at a lower grit. We've all been there. You need some 220/400/800 grit wet dry paper and a firm backing. Only move to the next grit after all the scratches are gone. Use windex as the lubricant.



one more quick question: what's the benefit of using windex instead of water? I've seen that referenced before, but haven't ever heard the reasoning.


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## panda (Apr 26, 2016)

don't feel bad. first thing i did when i bought a used shig gyuto was take it to a 400 grit stone. there were definitely inconsistent spots but it sure as hell cut a lot better after the trim (previous owner had only sharpened the edge and it got to the inevitable point of needing to be thinned) i never bother to clean up scratches, i end up adding more from use anyway.


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 26, 2016)

youkinorn said:


> one more quick question: what's the benefit of using windex instead of water? I've seen that referenced before, but haven't ever heard the reasoning.



You, I'm not going to BS about the Windex use, I have no idea. I think it's for the same reason why painters switched to water based paints. Easy clean up.


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## Dardeau (Apr 26, 2016)

I use WD-40 but only because I have it and don't have windex


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## panda (Apr 26, 2016)

isnt wd40 just fish oil?


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 26, 2016)

In 1953, a fledgling company called Rocket Chemical Company and its staff of three set out to create a line of rust-prevention solvents and degreasers for use in the aerospace industry.

Working in a small lab in San Diego, California, it took them 40 attempts to get the water displacing formula worked out. But they must have been really good, because the original secret formula for WD-40[emoji768] -which stands for Water Displacement perfected on the 40th tryis still in use today.

Convair, an aerospace contractor, first used WD-40[emoji768] to protect the outer skin of the Atlas Missile from rust and corrosion. The product actually worked so well that several employees snuck some WD-40[emoji768] cans out of the plant to use at home.


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## Bill13 (Apr 27, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> In 1953, a fledgling company called Rocket Chemical Company and its staff of three set out to create a line of rust-prevention solvents and degreasers for use in the aerospace industry.
> 
> Working in a small lab in San Diego, California, it took them 40 attempts to get the water displacing formula worked out. But they must have been really good, because the original secret formula for WD-40[emoji768] -which stands for Water Displacement perfected on the 40th tryis still in use today.
> 
> Convair, an aerospace contractor, first used WD-40[emoji768] to protect the outer skin of the Atlas Missile from rust and corrosion. The product actually worked so well that several employees snuck some WD-40[emoji768] cans out of the plant to use at home.



Had never heard this before, pretty cool. 40 attempts is very quick, they must of had a good idea of what would work before they even started.


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## KimBronnum (Apr 27, 2016)

I use WD-40 and 320 sandpaper for a nice finish on stainless, that 'common people' are very happy about on their German knives [emoji2]


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## Asteger (Apr 29, 2016)

I've removed lots of blade scratches but never experimented with windex, etc. I can't really think of why it'd be a benefit. Oil neither really, aside from it being easier to use in some ways.

Don't people find that micromesh, etc, wears out very quickly? Far better to use stone slurry as you go finer, once the coarse scratches are rubbed out, I think. That or WA powder or nat stone powder or similar.



Mucho Bocho said:


> In 1953, a fledgling company called Rocket Chemical Company and its staff of three set out to create a line of rust-prevention solvents and degreasers for use in the aerospace industry.
> 
> Working in a small lab in San Diego, California, it took them 40 attempts to get the water displacing formula worked out. But they must have been really good, because the original secret formula for WD-40[emoji768] -which stands for Water Displacement perfected on the 40th tryis still in use today.
> 
> Convair, an aerospace contractor, first used WD-40[emoji768] to protect the outer skin of the Atlas Missile from rust and corrosion. The product actually worked so well that several employees snuck some WD-40[emoji768] cans out of the plant to use at home.



:lol2: You've got a knack for this! Work in advertising?


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## Asteger (Apr 30, 2016)

CutFingers said:


> It's stupid to obsess about the aesthetic of the edge of a knife. It's a cutting tool, use it.



Kind of agree, though this is the finish of the whole blade not just the edge as you say. But keep in mind people pay a lot extra towards the finish when buying their knives, like it or not. (I'd be happy to pay less and work out my own finish.) Knives can't look great all the time, but worthwhile to be able to restore it from time to time. Sort of like getting haircuts or mowing a lawn, and things growing back, or washing your car and repairing dings and scratches. It's a cutting tools yes, and of course people use them, but it's also something you can enjoy in more than one way.


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## foody518 (May 1, 2016)

With carbon steel knives, should I have to worry about using water vs some other lubricant (Windex, WD-40, etc.) in terms of potentially having rust or patina developing on a wetted part of the blade during polishing? I've only really tried to polish the scratches out of one of my stainless knives, just used water as the lubricant. Are any other precautions necessary (regular wiping of the part of the blade not currently being polished, anything like that)?


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## youkinorn (May 4, 2016)

Quick update. I've learned a few things after experimenting with this knife a bit more. The main one is that one of my big problems was that I was trying to sharpen it like a wider bevel knife than it really is. The exposed hagane extends up beyond the edge bevel. I had been trying to hit all of the exposed hagane while sharpening, which was causing me to hit all the higher spots up the side of the knife, too. I guess eventually I would have effectively converted it to a wide-bevel knife, but I feel like it probably would have been over-thinned at that point. 

This is where I got using 220, 400, and 800 grit sandpaper, kiita fingerstones, and a bit of JNS synthetic aoto mud. It's far from perfect still, but vastly improved. And I really like the way it looks and feelsvery velvety. Sort of like it better than the original finish.









I may experiment with ways to bring out the contrast between the steels more, as well as ways to get a slight mirror effect to the hazy finish (maybe uchigomori fingerstones could help with both of those things?).


And since it was my first time using fingerstones. Here's one I put together (a little muddy still):


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## Asteger (May 4, 2016)

Looks good to me, youkinorn. You sure that's a kiita fingerstone? Looks like uchigumori in the photo rather than kiita.

Yeah, I like Toyama a lot but the finishes are more of the glossy synthetic type an not natural.

To have hagane mirror vs jigane haze, you'd need to mirror-up the hagane first and then polish the jigane with something that won't disturb the hagane. I think Blue2 (which Toyama uses) is kind of less contrasty to jigane than white steel, though.

If you polish the hagane on your normal stone up to the jigane, and then finger-polish the jigane beyond there you should be okay. If you want mirror, the jigane polish'll be coarser than the hagane polish so it'll be fine if you don't disturb the hagane (though tricky a bit when the lamination line wavers).


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## youkinorn (May 14, 2016)

[video=vimeo;166661050]https://vimeo.com/166661050[/video]

In (very limited) action.


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## brianh (Sep 23, 2016)

I had a moment of weakness and bought the last Toyama 210mm gyuto. Started reading here on sharpening tips. Anyone using just synthetic stones and getting a decent finish? And if so, what are you using? Would love to hear and see some pics. My meager stone setup is currently all from JKI. 400 grit soaker, 2000 grit soaker, Jinzo Aota, and 6k S&G.


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## chinacats (Sep 23, 2016)

brianh said:


> I had a moment of weakness and bought the last Toyama 210mm gyuto. Started reading here on sharpening tips. Anyone using just synthetic stones and getting a decent finish? And if so, what are you using? Would love to hear and see some pics. My meager stone setup is currently all from JKI. 400 grit soaker, 2000 grit soaker, Jinzo Aota, and 6k S&G.



that's no meager lineup...you should be able to sharpen pretty much anything with that lineup...congrats on the Toyama


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## brianh (Sep 23, 2016)

Thanks!


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 23, 2016)

Brian, I've got a Toyama and the sharpen up easy and can be maintained by high grit stropping. She won't need to see any sub 1000 for a while. My experience. Nice knife.


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## Badgertooth (Sep 23, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Brian, I've got a Toyama and the sharpen up easy and can be maintained by high grit stropping. She won't need to see any sub 1000 for a while. My experience. Nice knife.



+1 and your line up of stones is more than adequate. Great knife


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## brianh (Sep 23, 2016)

Awesome, thanks, guys. Mucho, you're just touching up the very edge i take it?


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 23, 2016)

brianh said:


> Awesome, thanks, guys. Mucho, you're just touching up the very edge i take it?



Yes, my favorite edge is left by the semi-synthetic Takenoko as strop after my Aiiwatani natural. So keen but with immediate bite.


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## Steampunk (Sep 23, 2016)

brianh said:


> I had a moment of weakness and bought the last Toyama 210mm gyuto. Started reading here on sharpening tips. Anyone using just synthetic stones and getting a decent finish? And if so, what are you using? Would love to hear and see some pics. My meager stone setup is currently all from JKI. 400 grit soaker, 2000 grit soaker, Jinzo Aota, and 6k S&G.



Yes, you can get a decent aesthetic finish on synths if you don't want to go down the natural route, although there are some more affordable options if you want to experiment with this...

I own most of those stones, and agree that they are excellent and quite versatile, although for my personal tastes I actually prefer Maksim's lineup for pure aesthetic finishing and thinning of wide bevels... They just match my style a little bit better, and I LOVE the results I get off of the JNS Red Aoto Matukusuyama for finishing wide bevels. This is typically the first stone after thinning and initial scratch refinement (300grit, & 1K) that I turn to for creating contrast, and it starts an awesome haze on the jigane/polish on the hagane that can either be left on its own (Especially if you work the mud, and retain some afterwards on some cotton wadding to polish the blade road.), refined further on a 6K ish synth, or refined with natural stones or even finger stones if the knife is really uneven. The JNS Red Aoto is really muddy and forgiving, but also polishes the core steel well above what you would expect. 

For edge bevels, the combo you've got (Gesshin 400, 2K, & 6K S&G; I permasoak all of mine like Jon does for best performance.) is pretty much flawless; especially on steels 62hrc+. If you want try something neat, pick up a 600 grit stone (Either Jon's or a Naniwa Pro/Chosera.), and try the 600-6K progression Jon advises, avoiding spending too much time on the 6K S&G (You can even just strop; the Gesshin 6K S&G has an interesting way of working.). This results in an edge with AWESOME bite that still has some refinement to it. I love it on Aogami for a synthetic sharpening setup... 

Hopefully this helps. 

- Steampunk


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## brianh (Sep 23, 2016)

Great info!


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