# Heiji Sharpening



## Yamabushi (Feb 2, 2014)

So I received a new 253mm gyuto and 125mm petty from Nakayaheiji on Friday, and while they were pretty sharp OOTB, I just couldn't resist putting the gyuto to the stones (Shapton Pro #1000 & #5000). I'm pretty happy with the job I did. First I pulled out the old Sharpie to make sure I was hitting all the right spots and then followed Jon Broida's instructions in another KKF thread HERE. By placing my fingers a bit higher with the feeling of pushing the shinogi upward, I was able to follow the shinogi line on both sides quite well never breaching it, hitting that area without hitting the edge. Then by changing my finger position down near the edge, I was able to hit the edge on both sides raising a small consistent burr. I followed this process first on the #1000 and then on the #5000. I then de-burred with a stropping motion on the #5000 and then on loaded felt. After that, following Jon's micro-beveling video, I micro-beveled on the right side only, followed by stropping on the #5000 again. Finished the whole process with a bit of stropping on leather, and produced a very nice edge.

Everything generally went well, but I had a couple of things come up:

On the right side when working the area below the shinogi, but not the edge I was getting a bit of stiction on my #5000, and to a lesser degree on my #1000.
After the whole process was said and done, I got much more of a polished/mirror finish compared to how they came from Heiji, a matte almost kasumi finish. I'm guessing while there may be some technique differences, the main thing is he probably used Jnats.

OK, so I'm a completely open book here. Please, let me know how I can potentially address my two main issues, and if there are any improvements and/or modifications recommended to my process. Thank you in advance!

Also just for the record, living in Japan I opted to order directly from Nakayaheiji, but if I didn't live here I would definitely have ordered from JKI for peace of mind and the value added service!


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## Dardeau (Feb 2, 2014)

Edipis Rex did a Heiji sharpening demo http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/12335-Heiji-spa-day
that should be helpful.


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## gavination (Feb 2, 2014)

Yamabushi, I just have to say how jealous you make me with the things you have access to in Japan!! :lol2: Of course we have access to other things here in the US as well, but I have such a crazy craving to visit. It gets me all pumped up and excited to make my June trip happen though!

Enjoy the Heiji dude!

gavin.


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## cclin (Feb 2, 2014)

Yamabushi said:


> [*]After the whole process was said and done, I got much more of a polished/mirror finish compared to how they came from Heiji, a matte almost kasumi finish. I'm guessing while there may be some technique differences, the main thing is he probably used Jnats.
> [/LIST]



I use king#800 & Uchigomori Fingerstone for final finish.


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## Asteger (Feb 2, 2014)

Yamabushi said:


> 1. On the right side when working the area below the shinogi, but not the edge I was getting a bit of stiction on my #5000, and to a lesser degree on my #1000.



I imagine it's partly due to the wide Heiji bevels and the surface area contact. Or maybe the slurry was slightly dry and you need more water? I know what you mean, but sometimes when you get it right there's a kind of sweetspot when everything's in balance, until the slurry then dries out and things stick more.



Yamabushi said:


> 2. ... almost kasumi finish. I'm guessing while there may be some technique differences, the main thing is he probably used Jnats.



Well, well... :whistling:


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## Yamabushi (Feb 2, 2014)

BTW, I should have specified in my initial post that both my Heiji's are semi-stainless.




Dardeau said:


> Edipis Rex did a Heiji sharpening demo http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/12335-Heiji-spa-day
> that should be helpful.


Thank you, I had forgotten about that thread! Additionally, I should credit Edipis a lot as being a great source of information on all things Heiji. He's been extremely helpful!




gavination said:


> Yamabushi, I just have to say how jealous you make me with the things you have access to in Japan!! :lol2: Of course we have access to other things here in the US as well, but I have such a crazy craving to visit. It gets me all pumped up and excited to make my June trip happen though!
> 
> Enjoy the Heiji dude!
> 
> gavin.


Thanks mate! Definitely let me know if you come over!




cclin said:


> I use king#800 & Uchigomori Fingerstone for final finish.


Cheers cclin, I appreciate that!




Asteger said:


> I imagine it's partly due to the wide Heiji bevels and the surface area contact. Or maybe the slurry was slightly dry and you need more water? I know what you mean, but sometimes when you get it right there's a kind of sweetspot when everything's in balance, until the slurry then dries out and things stick more.
> 
> Well, well... :whistling:


Yeah, the stiction was really the biggest negative for me with all of this. I've consistently read what a joy the Heiji's are on the stones, and while it was indeed great, the stiction wasn't! I tried a lot of water and not so much water, but neither seemed to help. I'd really like to find some sort of solution for this!

Regarding the Jnats... LOL, yeah I know, mate! Between my Heiji's and my razors, I definitely see some Jnats in my not too distant future! I'll definitely be picking your brain!


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## EdipisReks (Feb 2, 2014)

I don't think I've ever used a stone finer than about an aoto on the large secondary bevel, and usually I stop after 1k Chosera (the edge itself gets a different treatment). I think that may be the source of the sticktion you are experiencing, as there is just nowhere for water to go between the bevel and the very fine stone, and water surface tension is rearing its ugly head. Leaving it a little bit rough, and, just like yours all of mine have been a little bit roughly finished on the secondary bevel, OOTB, also helps with food sticktion. You might also want to pick up some finger stones, for finishing those areas. They are probably a lot cheaper to get in Japan than they are here (I've basically run out, and I just can't justify spending so much more than I did originally, so I use bits of sandpaper with stone slurry, these days, to clean up the not so attractive finish the 1k Chosera leaves).


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## Yamabushi (Feb 2, 2014)

EdipisReks said:


> I don't think I've ever used a stone finer than about an aoto on the large secondary bevel, and usually I stop after 1k Chosera (the edge itself gets a different treatment). I think that may be the source of the sticktion you are experiencing, as there is just nowhere for water to go between the bevel and the very fine stone, and water surface tension is rearing its ugly head. Leaving it a little bit rough, and, just like yours all of mine have been a little bit roughly finished on the secondary bevel, OOTB, also helps with food sticktion. You might also want to pick up some finger stones, for finishing those areas. They are probably a lot cheaper to get in Japan than they are here (I've basically run out, and I just can't justify spending so much more than I did originally, so I use bits of sandpaper with stone slurry, these days, to clean up the not so attractive finish the 1k Chosera leaves).


Cheers Jacob, that makes a lot of sense! It seems my main mistake was taking the secondary bevel to too high a grit. I will definitely be putting your suggestions into action. I'll take a look at the King #800, and while I've been able to avoid the temptation up till now, I'll start looking at some Jnats. It seems clear that they are unavoidably in my future! I've got a lot of research and learning to do!


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## Yamabushi (Feb 2, 2014)

Wow, if this photo is accurate, the King 800 is exactly what I am after!






And, what a nice bonus that it is inexpensive, too!!


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## Asteger (Feb 2, 2014)

Pete, I don't know if this is the best place or not - just off the top of my head - but as an example here's 1 place you can order uchigumori from for fingerstones. Or you can also visit them, as I think they're connected to or basically are also the Sigma stone company, and so I think are in west Tokyo beyond Shinjuku (though have never been myself). http://www.saicom.info/cgi-bin/saicom/siteup.cgi?category=3&page=4


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## EdipisReks (Feb 2, 2014)

I use a King 800 after the Chosera 1k, much of the time. That's pretty much what it looks like.

BTW, you don't need to work the secondary bevel every time you sharpen. I sharpen the primary three or four times before I thin it back out. It won't hurt anything to thin it every time, but I like enjoying the OOTB geometry as long as possible, as I've never been quite able to get it to be the same.


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## Eric (Feb 2, 2014)

How bout some photos?


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## Yamabushi (Feb 2, 2014)

Asteger said:


> Pete, I don't know if this is the best place or not - just off the top of my head - but as an example here's 1 place you can order uchigumori from for fingerstones. Or you can also visit them, as I think they're connected to or basically are also the Sigma stone company, and so I think are in west Tokyo beyond Shinjuku (though have never been myself). http://www.saicom.info/cgi-bin/saicom/siteup.cgi?category=3&page=4


Cool, thank you! OK, I found the shop location in Nakano between Nakano-dori and Kannana-dori. I'll visit them when I get back to Tokyo after my Europe and Israel excursion.





EdipisReks said:


> I use a King 800 after the Chosera 1k, much of the time. That's pretty much what it looks like.
> 
> BTW, you don't need to work the secondary bevel every time you sharpen. I sharpen the primary three or four times before I thin it back out. It won't hurt anything to thin it every time, but I like enjoying the OOTB geometry as long as possible, as I've never been quite able to get it to be the same.


Thanks for the clarification, and good point about preserving the OOTB geometry!


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## Yamabushi (Feb 2, 2014)

Eric said:


> How bout some photos?


I only have some pre-sharpening photos at the moment:


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## schanop (Feb 2, 2014)

If you don't want to go J-nat route just yet, but would still like to get a darker and finer finish on the cladding, you can opt for a soft synthetic stone.

King 800, and JNS 800, that I have can give a nice dark, consistent finish, and with a help of a finger stone of some sort, finish can be nice. However,
the scratches it leaves are still pretty coarse.

When I had Arashiyama 6k, I could get a nice kasumi finish from it with a little bit of muddy work. And with a little finger stone, you can achieve a very
good finish out of it easily. Other soft stones that I have tried in the past that give nice kasumi finish are Super Stone 3k, and the dreaded soft and crumbly synthetic alto. I probably would've put Kitayama on the list, but never been able to get consistent finish with it on its own myself.

Since you read Japanese, please have a loot at Tatsuya Aoki (of Suiin)'s blog here: http://hibisyugyo.blog84.fc2.com as well as Suisin's articles http://www.suisin.co.jp/Japanese/tokusyu/tokusyu.htm and http://www.suisin.co.jp/toku02/index.html. There are a lot of goodies there, particular sharpening and finishing on synthetic stones, that I could only appreciate via picture and automatic translation.


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## Yamabushi (Feb 2, 2014)

Thank you schanop, some good information. I speak a bit of Japanese, but my reading is pretty crap to be honest. That being said, I'll take a look at the pages you referenced nonetheless.


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## Yamabushi (Feb 2, 2014)

For those that are interested, Nakayaheiji let me know this morning that while he uses a number of natural stones to create his particular finish, the key one is a Shobu-dani.


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## labor of love (Feb 2, 2014)

BTW yamabushi, that heiji looks great. really nice profile. did you request that particular profile?


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## EdipisReks (Feb 2, 2014)

labor of love said:


> BTW yamabushi, that heiji looks great. really nice profile. did you request that particular profile?



That looks like the standard profile to me.


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## Yamabushi (Feb 2, 2014)

labor of love said:


> BTW yamabushi, that heiji looks great. really nice profile. did you request that particular profile?





EdipisReks said:


> That looks like the standard profile to me.



Yes, Edipis is correct. FWIW, I didn't make any profile requests, but I did asking for a thinner overall geometry, and an eased spine and choil.


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## JDA_NC (Feb 2, 2014)

Very nice looking knives!!

On the subject of stones that give a nice, misty finish and really bring out the contrast in steels - I will second the JNS 800 and also mention the JNS 6k.

The 800 is a huge stone that benefits from permasoaking and really reveals itself once it's been soaked and broken in. I was on the fence about it at first but I absolutely love it now. It's fairly fast cutting, muddy, but not too soft. I find it to be more in the 1k-2k range. It gives a really, really nice 'base finish' too.

The 6k is a true splash and go and very smooth feeling stone. Hard but it quickly muds up when polishing. The contrast and finish it provides on my clad knives is probably the best of any stone I own - synthetic or natural. With very little effort. And I'm not even a person that gets worked up over finishes. 

I don't own a King 800 but there are a lot of good reviews out there about its finishing powers, and the price is right.

Best of luck!


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## Yamabushi (Feb 3, 2014)

labor of love said:


> BTW yamabushi, that heiji looks great. really nice profile. did you request that particular profile?





JDA_NC said:


> Very nice looking knives!!
> 
> On the subject of stones that give a nice, misty finish and really bring out the contrast in steels - I will second the JNS 800 and also mention the JNS 6k.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I'll look into those, especially the JNS #6000


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## Yamabushi (Feb 3, 2014)

Brought home a King #800, soaked it for 35 minutes and then went back and hit the secondary bevel again. Result?... major success I would say! It looks great, very similar to the finish from Nakayaheiji as judged by a side by side comparison with my untouched petty. After that, I hit the micro-bevel again on my Shapton #5000 and all was well!

I'm very happy with result! Thank you to everyone for their guidance. This will help me delay my inevitable surrender to Jnats for a little while longer. :biggrin:

If I wanted to take this a step farther I would probably like to find another stone somewhere in the #2000 and up range that would give me a finer, but similar hazy finish. Some candidates have already been listed: Shobu-dani, Aoto, JNS #6000, Arashiyama #6000, etc. I'm interested in hearing more on the topic, if anyone has additional suggestions.


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## Asteger (Feb 3, 2014)

Reading Edipus ... R ... (how does he spell it?) Rex's recommendation, the King 800 does sound interesting. Of course, that's the one you should buy as you're in Japan, and so cheap too. Sounds similar to the JNS 800 I have used, and I agree with what's been said about that.

Of the others, I haven't used synths that much, but I still have and like the Arashiyama and if you look around you can get a good price on it. Under Y5000 I think? If I remember, I think it has some natural material mixed in and so can give you a bit of that feel and finish. It is fine-ish though, and these days I don't worry too much about a really fine finish and edge. The Arashiyama is a 6000, but (though a small difference) maybe a 5000 might be more my taste.


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## Yamabushi (Feb 3, 2014)

Asteger said:


> Reading Edipus ... R ... (how does he spell it?) Rex's recommendation, the King 800 does sound interesting. Of course, that's the one you should buy as you're in Japan, and so cheap too. Sounds similar to the JNS 800 I have used, and I agree with what's been said about that.
> 
> Of the others, I haven't used synths that much, but I still have and like the Arashiyama and if you look around you can get a good price on it. Under Y5000 I think? If I remember, I think it has some natural material mixed in and so can give you a bit of that feel and finish. It is fine-ish though, and these days I don't worry too much about a really fine finish and edge. The Arashiyama is a 6000, but (though a small difference) maybe a 5000 might be more my taste.



What kind of finish do you get with the Arashiyama? Does it give good contrast and kasumi? And, I just checked, yeah it's inexpensive 4-5000yen.


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## Yamabushi (Feb 3, 2014)

OK, so another question... if and when I make an mistake and stray above the shinogi when sharpening/thinning, how can I produce/replicate the finish on the sides of the blade above the shinogi?


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## Asteger (Feb 3, 2014)

Yamabushi said:


> OK, so another question... if and when I make an mistake and stray above the shinogi when sharpening/thinning, how can I produce/replicate the finish on the sides of the blade above the shinogi?



:sad0: No solution. Only trouble!


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## Asteger (Feb 3, 2014)

... Nah, you can polish that area in various ways. Use stone slurry and perhaps some kind of sandpaper of an appropriate grit. Only teasin' :happymug:


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## EdipisReks (Feb 3, 2014)

Yamabushi said:


> OK, so another question... if and when I make an mistake and stray above the shinogi when sharpening/thinning, how can I produce/replicate the finish on the sides of the blade above the shinogi?



I've never had any luck replicating the original finish, so I just use sandpaper and stone slurry to refinish both sides to whatever level I find to be acceptable. As the knife is thinned over time, you'll eventually want to reduce the thickness above the shinogi in order to maintain the correct geometry, anyway (otherwise the knife will become too thick well above the edge for good cutting) so I wouldn't worry about changing the finish.


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## Yamabushi (Feb 3, 2014)

EdipisReks said:


> I've never had any luck replicating the original finish, so I just use sandpaper and stone slurry to refinish both sides to whatever level I find to be acceptable. As the knife is thinned over time, you'll eventually want to reduce the thickness above the shinogi in order to maintain the correct geometry, anyway (otherwise the knife will become too thick well above the edge for good cutting) so I wouldn't worry about changing the finish.


Cheers! Makes sense.


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## Yamabushi (Feb 4, 2014)

EdipisReks said:


> As the knife is thinned over time, you'll eventually want to reduce the thickness above the shinogi in order to maintain the correct geometry...


What methodology do you use for this? Are you laying the sides of the blade flat on stone?


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## EdipisReks (Feb 4, 2014)

Yamabushi said:


> What methodology do you use for this? Are you laying the sides of the blade flat on stone?



Yes. It's not really anything you need to worry about until the knife has seen quite a bit of height reduction. One could probably also achieve a similar result by increasing the ratio of secondary bevel to blade height, over time, but to think its easier to grind the flats. All double bevel knives need to be thinned side to side eventually, if they are used enough and original geometry is to be maintained, this isn't a particularly Heiji thing.


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## Yamabushi (Feb 4, 2014)

EdipisReks said:


> Yes. It's not really anything you need to worry about until the knife has seen quite a bit of height reduction. One could probably also achieve a similar result by increasing the ratio of secondary bevel to blade height, over time, but to think its easier to grind the flats. All double bevel knives need to be thinned side to side eventually, if they are used enough and original geometry is to be maintained, this isn't a particularly Heiji thing.



Cheers! Yeah, not thinking about doing this any time soon, but since we were on the general topic, I figured I would ask. I'm doing my best to completely understand these knives and knives in general, so I am endlessly inquisitive. Thank you!


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## Lefty (Feb 4, 2014)

Jacob, does the shinogi not move up a tiny bit every time you thin? I'm not challenging you, just asking, as you're the Heiji guru (well, Jon too). I know whenever I hit secondary bevels, I bring up the shinogi at a natural rate, as a result of said thinning. Hmmm.


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## Yamabushi (Feb 4, 2014)

Lefty said:


> Jacob, does the shinogi not move up a tiny bit every time you thin? I'm not challenging you, just asking, as you're the Heiji guru (well, Jon too). I know whenever I hit secondary bevels, I bring up the shinogi at a natural rate, as a result of said thinning. Hmmm.


It's my understanding and thus far limited experience, that yes the shinogi will and should move up when you hit the secondary bevel. The trick, of course, is having the entire shinogi move up evenly and not breaching it.


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## EdipisReks (Feb 4, 2014)

Lefty said:


> Jacob, does the shinogi not move up a tiny bit every time you thin? I'm not challenging you, just asking, as you're the Heiji guru (well, Jon too). I know whenever I hit secondary bevels, I bring up the shinogi at a natural rate, as a result of said thinning. Hmmm.



It does, but the blade also thickens in cross-section from edge to spine. that means that, even as the secondary bevel is raised, the natural inculcation of the blade above the edge is to thicken. Removing steel from both sides of the knife and then re-grinding the secondary bevel corrects this. The other way to deal with it, as I mentioned, is to increase the ratio of secondary bevel to blade height, to keep the edge thickness to shinogi thickness multiplier intact, but that modifies the blade geometry more than removing steel from the sides (the change may be better, may be worse).


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## EdipisReks (Feb 4, 2014)

That should be inclination, not inculcation. Not sure why auto-complete decided on the decidedly less common word...


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## Lefty (Feb 6, 2014)

That was a great post. I mean the one about the autocorrect, and not the actual great post.


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## Yamabushi (Mar 2, 2014)

OK, after a busy but nice 2.5 weeks in Europe and Israel, I'm back in Japan and have been able to use my Heiji's a bit more. I'm happy to report that I am definitely very impressed with their performance! The gyuto is a hell of a cutter, and the petty has definitely exceeded my expectations!

That being said, I have another question regarding the flat sides of the blades. Has anyone been able to reproduce the finish as it comes from Nakayaheiji? It's not an absolute imperative, and I will probably experiment a bit, but I have to say that the brushed appearance is very distinct and attractive, and a nice contrast to the finish below the shinogi. So... anyone able to recreate it?


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## gavination (Mar 2, 2014)

Yamabushi said:


> OK, after a busy but nice 2.5 weeks in Europe and Israel, I'm back in Japan and have been able to use my Heiji's a bit more. I'm happy to report that I am definitely very impressed with their performance! The gyuto is a hell of a cutter, and the petty has definitely exceeded my expectations!
> 
> That being said, I have another question regarding the flat sides of the blades. Has anyone been able to reproduce the finish as it comes from Nakayaheiji? It's not an absolute imperative, and I will probably experiment a bit, but I have to say that the brushed appearance is very distinct and attractive, and a nice contrast to the finish below the shinogi. So... anyone able to recreate it?



Pester Heiji-sama until he tells/shows you. :lol2:


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## Yamabushi (Mar 2, 2014)

gavination said:


> Pester Heiji-sama until he tells/shows you. :lol2:



Haha! I figured I pick a few brains around here first, before bothering him!


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## apathetic (Mar 3, 2014)

That might be a natural stone finish


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## Yamabushi (Mar 3, 2014)

apathetic said:


> That might be a natural stone finish


Possible I suppose, but I would wager it's not. It's more of a coarse brushed finish.


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