# Best production knives?



## aikon2020 (Dec 28, 2020)

Whats your opinion? What factory made j knives brand are the best? 

Yaxell? Miyabi? Mac? Shun? And so on.


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 28, 2020)

Idk, but I like Mac, Misono and Masahiro a lot.


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## ragz (Dec 28, 2020)

I really like misono, with a mac bread knife.


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## btbyrd (Dec 28, 2020)

Z Kramers are pretty dang nice.


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## alterwisser (Dec 28, 2020)

btbyrd said:


> Z Kramers are pretty dang nice.



what he said


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## GorillaGrunt (Dec 28, 2020)

Mac, and Masahiro Japanese steel was actually pretty darned good for the price range


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## zizirex (Dec 29, 2020)

Seki vs Tosa vs Sanjo. those regions are the factory knife maker.
some say Mac is the best, but Tojiro R2 is still my fav factory knife.


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## M1k3 (Dec 29, 2020)

If Yoshikane is factory made, them.
Otherwise Misono or Masahiro.


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 29, 2020)

Ohohohoh, I have a profound love for stainless Tojiro. Love them.

(Also; no big fan of the yaxells I’ve tried. Can’t comment on miyabi).


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 29, 2020)

Did I say I love stainless Tojiro? If I did, it’s worth mentioning again.


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## Qapla' (Dec 29, 2020)

I'll admit I'm ignorant, but how does one tell which j-knives are "factory-made" or "production"?

I like the Kanehide TK.

Do things like the Ryusen Blazen R2/SG2 count? I think there are a lot of forumites who like them.


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## Jovidah (Dec 29, 2020)

The problem is that it's a very thin line. I used to think the Ryusen knifes were bog standard 'factory knives', until I saw a video of what their production looked like. Similarly, I've heard people mention that apparently even at a more budget oriented place like Tojiro it's not exactly a hall of CNC machines either and still quite some manual labour.


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## Ruso (Dec 29, 2020)

Jovidah said:


> The problem is that it's a very thin line. I used to think the Ryusen knifes were bog standard 'factory knives', until I saw a video of what their production looked like. Similarly, I've heard people mention that apparently even at a more budget oriented place like Tojiro it's not exactly a hall of CNC machines either and still quite some manual labour.


Factory does not mean CNC machining or full automation. I agree that the line is thin betwean a small factory and successful “mom-pop” shop production. Tojiro is definitely a factory made just judging by the sheer number of knives produced.


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## zizirex (Dec 29, 2020)

Well, Tojiro Atelier is handforge though. I dont know if they did the HT differently than the Rest of the DP series or the Same.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Dec 29, 2020)

Z Kramer 52100 10 inch. Just thin it near the edge a little bit and maybe also add a bit of convexity, then you get a terrific knife. The steel is tough, easy to sharpen, get scary sharp and has decent edge retention. The distal taper is also nice, and the handle is super comfortable. And it's good looking.


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## parbaked (Dec 29, 2020)




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## Chefdog (Dec 29, 2020)

Misono. Specifically the Swedish carbon.


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## aikon2020 (Dec 29, 2020)

Can you buy the Misono knives in Europe?


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## Chefdog (Dec 29, 2020)

Im 99.9% sure JCK will ship to Europe. They use DHL to the US and it is FAST.


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## parbaked (Dec 29, 2020)

Misono and Mac...


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## inferno (Dec 29, 2020)

aikon2020 said:


> Whats your opinion? What factory made j knives brand are the best?
> 
> Yaxell? Miyabi? Mac? Shun? And so on.



global


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## inferno (Dec 29, 2020)

Chefdog said:


> Im 99.9% sure JCK will ship to Europe. They use DHL to the US and it is FAST.



jck used the be very good value before the dollar got expensive. if you only ordered 1 knife, the shipping was 7$, and it always just slipped through customs like magic, with no VAT.


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## JimMaple98 (Dec 29, 2020)

+1 on misono Swedish


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## JayS20 (Dec 29, 2020)

aikon2020 said:


> Can you buy the Misono knives in Europe?








Misono messen


Hamono.nl, de webshop van Slijperij JM van Rangelrooij!




www.hamono.nl









Japanse Messen - De beste merken en de grootste collectie


Uitgebreide collectie aan Japanse messen. Handgemaakt en vlijmscherp. Met o.a. Mac, Misono, Kai, Miyabi, Global, Bob Kramer, Tojiro, Mcusta, Takamura.




www.meesterslijpers.nl


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## Jovidah (Dec 29, 2020)

JCK should be significantly cheaper though. Like inferno I always got lucky on my packages. Even if you somehow get unlucky at most you'd end up paying about the same.


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## Elliot (Dec 29, 2020)

Production is an extremely difficult term to nail down here. If we mean *mostly *by machine, Yoshikane Hamono and there's nothing mentioned above that's within 10,000 miles.


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## Chefdog (Dec 29, 2020)

Last thing I ordered from JCK was the week before Xmas and it got to my door from Japan in less than 72 hrs....crazy fast.


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## Chefdog (Dec 29, 2020)

Elliot said:


> Production is an extremely difficult term to nail down here. If we mean *mostly *by machine, Yoshikane Hamono and there's nothing mentioned above that's within 10,000 miles.



Ok, if that’s w/in the rules, I’ll have to change my vote.


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## Elliot (Dec 29, 2020)

Chefdog said:


> Ok, if that’s w/in the rules, I’ll have to change my vote.



Misono is totally passable and bang for the buck is high, but it's my understanding that Yoshikane is pretty streamlined these days.


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## daveb (Dec 29, 2020)

At the OPs price points, the best "factory" knife (imo) is the Suisin Western Inox. The Mac is a little more knife at a little more price and better suited for pro use (what a pretty Mac, said no one ever.....)

Don't want to hear any more  about Yoshi being factory made. Don't care if you have video of the machines and assembly lines. Yoshi is all blood, sweat and tears - I believe it and don't want to hear different.


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## zizirex (Dec 29, 2020)

if y'all consider Yoshikane a Factory knife, How about Ashi then? they definitely a factory scale since they make an OEM for many brands.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Dec 29, 2020)

Yea...if yoshi is considered mass produced, then my ranking for mass produced knives is

1. Yoshikane
2. Takamura
3. Konosuke HD (Ashi made I believe) and Masamoto KS
4. Other Ashi made knives


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 29, 2020)

I don't understand the distinction y'all are trying to make. I see there being generally three categories of knives, and it has nothing to do with the type of building they're made in, more about who is doing them:

Artisan made: one person does everything, forging, sharpening, and finishing every knife
Artisan-collective made: separate people do different parts, but each part is always done by the same person, ie, the Sakai system
Tradesman made: different skilled workers may work on one or more aspects interchangeably, and there is no knowing who has done what
(Mostly) Machine made: blanks are laser cut and then machine ground, though some things will still be done by hand by necessity

It would seem Yoshikane falls into that third category.


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## daveb (Dec 29, 2020)

Does Mazaki get his own category?


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## M1k3 (Dec 29, 2020)

daveb said:


> Does Mazaki get his own category?


All of them?


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## RevJoe (Dec 29, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I don't understand the distinction y'all are trying to make. I see there being generally three categories of knives, and it has nothing to do with the type of building they're made in, more about who is doing them:
> 
> Artisan made: one person does everything, forging, sharpening, and finishing every knife
> Artisan-collective made: separate people do different parts, but each part is always done by the same person, ie, the Sakai system
> ...



So are they laser cutting from pre-lamented steel sheets or someone forging them then laser cutting out of flattened billet? I only ask because I saw a video of a maker where they forged the steel into the basic shape then trimmed using a stamp. So feels relevant, but I forget which forge that was. I thought it was video about smiths in Sakai.

Edits: the video as I recall also made the distinction from Chinese and euro factories because they were not stamping from sheets of metal. but using the stamp to trim it down after forging from a bar.


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## M1k3 (Dec 29, 2020)

RevJoe said:


> So are they laser cutting from pre-lamented steel sheets or someone forging them then laser cutting out of flattened billet? I only ask because I saw a video of a maker where they forged the steel into the basic shape then trimmed using a stamp. So feels relevant, but I forget which forge that was. I thought it was video about smiths in Sakai.
> 
> Edits: the video as I recall also made the distinction from Chinese and euro factories because they were not stamping from sheets of metal. but using the stamp to trim it down after forging from a bar.


Ryusen does this. Not sure if that's who you are referring to though.


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## RevJoe (Dec 29, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Ryusen does this. Not sure if that's who you are referring to though.


Could have been I did see a video on him.


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## Leo Barr (Dec 30, 2020)

Another make I would add is Suisin


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## timebard (Dec 30, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I don't understand the distinction y'all are trying to make. I see there being generally three categories of knives, and it has nothing to do with the type of building they're made in, more about who is doing them:
> 
> Artisan made: one person does everything, forging, sharpening, and finishing every knife
> Artisan-collective made: separate people do different parts, but each part is always done by the same person, ie, the Sakai system
> ...



Is what Yoshikane is doing significantly different than what many Japanese makers of knives at comparable price points are doing? My understanding (from reading here and elsewhere, not any direct sources) is that Yoshi operates with a small crew of apprentice/journeyman smiths, sharpeners, etc doing the direct work, producing knives to spec for given product lines, with a senior maker directing the design, developing specs, and doing QC. If this is basically accurate, is that much different than how Takefu village smiths, Takamura, TF, Konosuke (non-FM line anyway), Masashi, or other popular makers in the roughly $200-300 range are understood to operate today?

(To be really clear, I'm not casting aspersions on any of the brands/makers mentioned. Just trying to better understand the ins and outs of the industry.)


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## DitmasPork (Dec 30, 2020)

aikon2020 said:


> Whats your opinion? What factory made j knives brand are the best?
> 
> Yaxell? Miyabi? Mac? Shun? And so on.



Takamura.


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## DitmasPork (Dec 30, 2020)

Naoki Mazaki is a one-man factory.


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## aikon2020 (Dec 30, 2020)

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that production knives are worse than artisan knives, just different imo.


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 30, 2020)

timebard said:


> Is what Yoshikane is doing significantly different than what many Japanese makers of knives at comparable price points are doing? My understanding (from reading here and elsewhere, not any direct sources) is that Yoshi operates with a small crew of apprentice/journeyman smiths, sharpeners, etc doing the direct work, producing knives to spec for given product lines, with a senior maker directing the design, developing specs, and doing QC. If this is basically accurate, is that much different than how Takefu village smiths, Takamura, TF, Konosuke (non-FM line anyway), Masashi, or other popular makers in the roughly $200-300 range are understood to operate today?
> 
> (To be really clear, I'm not casting aspersions on any of the brands/makers mentioned. Just trying to better understand the ins and outs of the industry.)


They're not any different, I was just responding to daveb's specific Yoshikane interest. I think we're both right, though it's difficult to know for sure when the origins are being kept purposefully opaque. I believe a lack of information is a sign in itself that a manufacturer falls into category three. In the $400-600 range we should expect more transparency, even if it's somewhat buried on instagram posts. Like some Konosuke lines, Takada no Hamono, and the various 'name x name' series from Hitohira. They seem to be adapting better to the higher prices of the market, while others try to rely on their brand cache, which will only last so long


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## RevJoe (Dec 30, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> They're not any different, I was just responding to daveb's specific Yoshikane interest. I think we're both right, though it's difficult to know for sure when the origins are being kept purposefully opaque. I believe a lack of information is a sign in itself that a manufacturer falls into category three. In the $400-600 range we should expect more transparency, even if it's somewhat buried on instagram posts. Like some Konosuke lines, Takada no Hamono, and the various 'name x name' series from Hitohira. They seem to be adapting better to the higher prices of the market, while others try to rely on their brand cache, which will only last so long


I have been watching some videos on Hitorhira, it look's like they do it both ways, factory and artesian so the question here is which lines are which.


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## juice (Dec 30, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> In the $400-600 range we should expect more transparency, even if it's somewhat buried on instagram posts.


Not sure this is correct, this idea about expectations - they have their business practices, which they can divulge or not, and consumers can choose to buy or not based on that.


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 30, 2020)

juice said:


> Not sure this is correct, this idea about expectations - they have their business practices, which they can divulge or not, and consumers can choose to buy or not based on that.


Exactly, that's what 'expectations' mean


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## GorillaGrunt (Dec 31, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Naoki Mazaki is a one-man factory.



mazaki is all the factories, he’s like Rumplestiltskin


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## DitmasPork (Dec 31, 2020)

Complicated question.


aikon2020 said:


> Whats your opinion? What factory made j knives brand are the best?
> 
> Yaxell? Miyabi? Mac? Shun? And so on.



Complicated question. Do you mean mass produced vs small productions; or knives made using mainly machines vs primarily handmade?

From the examples given—it appears you mean large production knives easily accessible from major retailers like William Sonoma, Sur la Table, Cutlery and More, et al.

If so, I'm a fan of Mac and Misono—fit & finish consistently good, easy to find, dependable knives, easy to find.

Harder to find—Takamura is wonderful IMO.

[I've not read all comments on this thread, so forgive me if reapeating.]


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## aikon2020 (Jan 1, 2021)

Speaking lf Takamura, which angles does the R2 migaki handle? And how about good heat treated R2/SG2 in general. As low as 10 degrees per side?


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## shinyunggyun (Jan 2, 2021)

Freakin love Masahiro virgin carbon. The price is great on knifemerchant.


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## chefwp (Mar 9, 2021)

Where does a knife like a Shiki black dragon series fall in this discussion?

I agree that Misonos are very nice, but I also am a bit intimidated by sharpening their asymmetrical grinds, I'm afraid I'll ef it up.

I briefly had some Yaxells, they seemed ok, but I never tried to sharpen the VG10 before I sold them, only have a petty left from them, but I don't often use it, the wife and kids do though, seems fine.


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## GorillaGrunt (Mar 9, 2021)

shinyunggyun said:


> Freakin love Masahiro virgin carbon. The price is great on knifemerchant.



Agreed, it will take the edge of a much pricier knife and is a tank that you can lend to someone you wouldn't want putting their mitts on your expensive stuff. I thought the hard mono would be a pain to thin but it wasn't too bad on my one.


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## JaVa (Mar 10, 2021)

Macs good. No cheese.


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## DavidPF (Mar 10, 2021)

chefwp said:


> I also am a bit intimidated by sharpening their asymmetrical grinds, I'm afraid I'll ef it up.


I have the same feeling for myself, but at the same time: when you sharpen other knives, I bet you don't just blindly drag the knife across the first stone you see, but go by look and feel to make it turn out the right way. Having two sides that should turn out different is no harder or weirder than having two different knives that should turn out different.


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## M1k3 (Mar 10, 2021)

It's a little easier to figure out how asymmetrical to sharpen an asymmetric knife, if you have used it. If it steers left, sharpen higher on the left. If it steers right, higher on the right side. If it cuts straight, match the existing edge.


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## DavidPF (Mar 10, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> sharpen higher


"sharpen higher" = cause the bevel to be a bit wider?

Or "sharpen higher" = hold the spine higher off the stone?

Sorry for a dumb question


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## chiffonodd (Mar 10, 2021)

TMTMTMTMTNTMTMTMTMTMTMTM

(takamura, Ьitches)


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## dafox (Mar 10, 2021)

+1 Takamura, and a good value.


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## M1k3 (Mar 10, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> "sharpen higher" = cause the bevel to be a bit wider?
> 
> Or "sharpen higher" = hold the spine higher off the stone?
> 
> Sorry for a dumb question


In relation between the spine of the knife and the stone. Or in reference to a higher numerical degree of angle of said knife in relation to the stone. For the actual cutting edge.


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## DavidPF (Mar 10, 2021)

chiffonodd said:


> TMTMTMTMTNTMTMTMTMTMTMTM
> 
> (takamura, Ьitches)


(Plus one takanura in the middle, dudэ)


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## chiffonodd (Mar 10, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> (Plus one takanura in the middle, dudэ)



super secret surprise knife!


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## Benuser (Mar 11, 2021)

Misono, Masahiro, Suien, Robert Herder


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## Nemo (Mar 11, 2021)

Don't know if Ryusen fits your criteria for "production knives". They make some excellent knives, though.


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## DavidPF (Mar 11, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I don't understand the distinction y'all are trying to make. I see there being generally three categories of knives, and it has nothing to do with the type of building they're made in, more about who is doing them:
> 
> Artisan made: one person does everything, forging, sharpening, and finishing every knife
> Artisan-collective made: separate people do different parts, but each part is always done by the same person, ie, the Sakai system
> ...


This makes sense to me, and I think it covers everything, as long as you keep in mind that the first category has to be pretty strict if it's going to exist - unless there was a helper packing them into boxes for sale, your "artisan made" knives would basically be only touched by one person prior to the customer, with no such thing as contributions that "don't count".

I especially like the way you wrote it because it applies easily to any country (your examples from Japan only show a method of organization that anyone could use).


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## Martyn (Mar 12, 2021)

For mass-produced knives, I have tried Shun, Miyabi and Misono. Out of these three, my vote goes to Misono.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 12, 2021)

If Tsunehisa counts, then the one example I have is excellent, especially for the money.


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## adam92 (Mar 13, 2021)

Tojiro Might be the cheapest factory knife while the quality control is still very nice.


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## Qapla' (Mar 13, 2021)

adam92 said:


> Tojiro Might be the cheapest factory knife while the quality control is still very nice.


Which Tojiro's have the nice quality control? I've often heard Tojiro's as being iffy at best there. Though I have no idea if their higher lines have nicer QC, since I've never used or held the Tojiro Blue or Tojiro Blue-Damascus knives myself.


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## adam92 (Mar 13, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> Which Tojiro's have the nice quality control? I've often heard Tojiro's as being iffy at best there, though never seen a Tojiro Blue or Tojiro Blue-Damascus myself, so I have no idea if their higher lines have better QC.


My friend own the TP, quite nice F&F, except handle too big for me & their SG2.


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## Benuser (Mar 13, 2021)

Never handled new ones. Sharpened a lot of DP's. Some very easy, some problematic. Have been explained that an optimal HT of VG-10 and mass-production do not go very well together.


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## nwshull (Mar 13, 2021)

Would a production knife be judged by best regardless of cost or best value? I think production knives can do a lot of things as good as hand made knives, but does being mass produced mean it should also have a good bang for your buck?


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## DavidPF (Mar 13, 2021)

I got the feeling that the original intention was "best regardless of cost", but you're certainly right that there's more than one kind of best. There's even more than one way to determine bang for the buck, because depending on skill levels and use cases, some types of "bang" are worthless for certain people. (Example: for some people, a knife that slices well *and* will also be great for rock-chopping is suddenly twice as much bang for the buck - but for someone who doesn't want to rock chop, it's not worth anything to be able to.)


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## Carlo (Mar 13, 2021)

MAC Mac Mac Mac Mac Mac

and/or Takamura if they qualify


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