# Favorite Supersteel or Carbon Steel alternative knife



## adam_Cullen (Mar 18, 2021)

Hello everyone! I got my hands on the 240mm G3 kiritsuke a while back and its been rather nice to use. As a budding collector, I was wanting to expand into some of the supersteels and carbon alternatives and found myself in another world! Between VG-10, VGMax, R2, S2, HAP40, G3 and a bigillion other steels... i gotta ask... what's all of your favorites, why, and do you have any recommendations on my next purchase?


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## GorillaGrunt (Mar 18, 2021)

YXR7 if we’re only talking about steel. But it’s as far as I know available only from Sukenari. SKD/VS1/Chromax/etc will give you more choices, and I’ve never had a knife in SLD that I didn’t like either.


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## LostHighway (Mar 18, 2021)

Z-Wear ticks all the boxes except ease of sharpening and even there it isn't awful, just slow - a legitimate super steel IMO. 
Dalman's HSS1 may be great. The fact that @RDalman thinks it is worth using gives it considerable automatic credibility, but I haven't used it, and don't know the alloy
The following I don't consider "super steels" but some are very good alloys: Ginsan/G3/19C27 is fine but I prefer really good examples of AEB-L and Nitro-V (maybe 14C28N too, I haven't tried one). I really like A2/SKD12, one of my favorites although not exceptional edge retention.. R2 is good but I probably won't buy a second SG2/R2 knife as I don't like the board feel, maybe my example not the alloy. The VG-10 knives I have experience with, mostly Shuns, I have not liked. I haven't tried HAP40. I also haven't tried ZDP189 but on paper it isn't at all an appealing alloy to me.
What do you prioritize? Ease of sharpening? Edge retention? The potential to take an extremely fine edge? A high degree of stain resistance?


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## branwell (Mar 18, 2021)

I hate to be that guy, but steel like stones is really subjective. and things like blade and edge geometry, balance, heat treat etc make such a difference it becomes almost impossible to nail anything down on steel alone. If I where you and I'm not, so ignore my suggestion here, but if I where you I would more look at knives as a whole package. Try to identify what it is you like about a knife and see if you can find a knife that pushes further in that direction type thing.


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## adam_Cullen (Mar 18, 2021)

LostHighway said:


> Z-Wear ticks all the boxes except ease of sharpening and even there it isn't awful, just slow - a legitimate super steel IMO.
> Dalman's HSS1 may be great. The fact that @RDalman thinks it is worth using gives it considerable automatic credibility, but I haven't used it, and don't know the alloy
> The following I don't consider "super steels" but some are very good alloys: Ginsan/G3/19C27 is fine but I prefer really good examples of AEB-L and Nitro-V (maybe 14C28N too, I haven't tried one). I really like A2/SKD12, one of my favorites although not exceptional edge retention.. R2 is good but I probably won't buy a second SG2/R2 knife as I don't like the board feel, maybe my example not the alloy. The VG-10 knives I have experience with, mostly Shuns, I have not liked. I haven't tried HAP40. I also haven't tried ZDP189 but on paper it isn't at all an appealing alloy to me.
> What do you prioritize? Ease of sharpening? Edge retention? The potential to take an extremely fine edge? A high degree of stain resistance?


i do not know if prioritize is the right word for me on this subject to be honest. its like, i went from a knife appreciator to a budding collector over the last year and have fallen into this vast rabbit hole of information. i've done loads of research into knife styles/types... history.. techniques.. finishes.. but only just got in to learning about some of the steels used and what separates the good from the bad and and the pros/cons of each. safe to say i love it and want to get everyones opinion! i guess what i prioritize would be learning as much as possible and getting a bechmark to jump off of so i know what i am looking for/at. 

My collection consists of 3 stainless steels, a G3, a Blue #2, and an AS. I'm open to anything/everything i can get my hands on as longs as i know what im looking for.


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## adam_Cullen (Mar 18, 2021)

branwell said:


> I hate to be that guy, but steel like stones is really subjective. and things like blade and edge geometry, balance, heat treat etc make such a difference it becomes almost impossible to nail anything down on steel alone. If I where you and I'm not, so ignore my suggestion here, but if I where you I would more look at knives as a whole package. Try to identify what it is you like about a knife and see if you can find a knife that pushes further in that direction type thing.


no, by all means, give me your opinion! i'm very open to hearing from all sides here. like i just finished on another reply, i am a budding collector and just recently discovered this love for cutlery. i have a few chef friends who have given me similar advice as you and it usually on par with "its variable and dependent on the task at hand" which i COMPLETELY understand. as a home cook, "feeling" the difference for myself is another subject i am learning and will be another avenue i travel down at a later date. i guess i am looking for a collection, but also to the knowledge to know EXACTLY what i have and how it compares to others out there if that makes since.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 18, 2021)

branwell said:


> I hate to be that guy, but steel like stones is really subjective. and things like blade and edge geometry, balance, heat treat etc make such a difference it becomes almost impossible to nail anything down on steel alone. If I where you and I'm not, so ignore my suggestion here, but if I where you I would more look at knives as a whole package. Try to identify what it is you like about a knife and see if you can find a knife that pushes further in that direction type thing.


Of coarse that all matters. But zdp-189 with all the aspects done properly, with a very a high Rockwell sure would be lovely to own. Dont get me wrong I love sharpening, but for once having a steel that will hold the kind of fine edge I like, longer than my shirogami 2, or vg10 would definitely be nice.


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## daveb (Mar 18, 2021)

Like others above, I'll suggest it's all subjective and not all based on rational criteria.

Except Zwear. It's the best.

Everything else is subjective.


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## Checkpure (Mar 18, 2021)

daveb said:


> Like others above, I'll suggest it's all subjective and not all based on rational criteria.
> 
> Except Zwear. It's the best.
> 
> Everything else is subjective.


I keep hearing about zwear on here. What gyutos in this metal do you recommend that are available?


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## LostHighway (Mar 18, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> I keep hearing about zwear on here. What gyutos in this metal do you recommend that are available?


@HSC /// Knives


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## daveb (Mar 18, 2021)

Habeer works with zwear (and other steels), tell him what you want and it will soon appear. He's very easy to work with.

I have a 180mm petty, a 250mm gyuto and a 285mm suji. Carbon steel that does not stain nor show patina, not easy to sharpen but stays sharp forever.


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## M1k3 (Mar 18, 2021)

Zwear for stainless.* Also ticks the 'tool steel' and 'powdered metallurgy' boxes.

52100, A2 and it's Japanese variants for semi-stainless.

Blue and White steels for simple carbon's.


*don't correct me, it's stainless enough.


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 19, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> I keep hearing about zwear on here. What gyutos in this metal do you recommend that are available?



I have the following z wear in stock ready to be made. How many would you like?


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## CA_cook (Mar 21, 2021)

So nobody mentioned ZDP189? It’s a heresy here to mention a retail knife but the Myabi Black series is actually quite outstanding. ZDP189 blade, beautiful handle and flawless fit and finish. Other than a real pain to sharpen, no complaints.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 21, 2021)

CA_cook said:


> So nobody mentioned ZDP189? It’s a heresy here to mention a retail knife but the Myabi Black series is actually quite outstanding. ZDP189 blade, beautiful handle and flawless fit and finish. Other than a real pain to sharpen, no complaints.


I did.


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## adam_Cullen (Mar 21, 2021)

CA_cook said:


> So nobody mentioned ZDP189? It’s a heresy here to mention a retail knife but the Myabi Black series is actually quite outstanding. ZDP189 blade, beautiful handle and flawless fit and finish. Other than a real pain to sharpen, no complaints.


is it really heresy here? i haven't been on here long enough to know taboos. i mean, i love Myabi as a company and their products are great in my opinion, espicially their Black series. Hell, a Krammer knife though Zwelling is another outstanding retail knife in my book.. but its basically a custom knife anyway thats been massed produced so i don't know if it really qualifies.


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## LostHighway (Mar 21, 2021)

adam_Cullen said:


> is it really heresy here?



MACs, Herders, and Misonos get favorable mentions here all the time, even the Shun paring knives get a positive nod. More on the vintage end but Sabatiers, old Dicks, and Forgecraft also have more than a few admirers here. When the Euroline Carbon Zwilling Kramers are on sale at a good price that also gets some attention here as well.


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## Rangen (Mar 21, 2021)

Wait, there's such a thing as heresy here? Good thing that I ignore that idea, then.

OK, on to the point. I have entirely too many Spyderco folding knives. I like their shape and their design, but, more to the point, I like their experimentation with steels. I have their knives in: ZDP-189, Maxamet, Super Blue, VG-10, CTS-XHP, M390, K390, HAP40, S110V. At no time have I wished for a kitchen knife in any of these except, of course, for Super Blue. They are great knives, for their purpose. Kitchen knives are a whole different situation, unless you're using them to cut cardboard, or experiment with the outer limits of the polished edge.

For kitchen knives, I have never wished for the edge endurance that these steels deliver. Maybe if I were a professional cook, I would, but for the kitchen, it's mostly Blue and White, and the occasional stainless.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 21, 2021)

Rangen said:


> Wait, there's such a thing as heresy here? Good thing that I ignore that idea, then.
> 
> OK, on to the point. I have entirely too many Spyderco folding knives. I like their shape and their design, but, more to the point, I like their experimentation with steels. I have their knives in: ZDP-189, Maxamet, Super Blue, VG-10, CTS-XHP, M390, K390, HAP40, S110V. At no time have I wished for a kitchen knife in any of these except, of course, for Super Blue. They are great knives, for their purpose. Kitchen knives are a whole different situation, unless you're using them to cut cardboard, or experiment with the outer limits of the polished edge.
> 
> For kitchen knives, I have never wished for the edge endurance that these steels deliver. Maybe if I were a professional cook, I would, but for the kitchen, it's mostly Blue and White, and the occasional stainless.


I mean, what's wrong with a steel that will hold a hht passable edge throughout a whole meal? I've seen people do tests with a lot of the steels you mentioned, and the results were amazing. 

Also, what's wrong with vg10? I thought it was an excepted kitchen knife steel. (Zdp-189, and hap 40 for that matter too)


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## Rangen (Mar 21, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> I mean, what's wrong with a steel that will hold a hht passable edge throughout a whole meal? I've seen people do tests with a lot of the steels you mentioned, and the results were amazing.
> 
> Also, what's wrong with vg10? I thought it was an excepted kitchen knife steel. (Zdp-189, and hap 40 for that matter too)



I don't disagree, really. I actually have a VG10 kitchen knife, a Hattori, that I think is very good. It's more that I've never actually yearned for a knife that would pass HHT throughout meal preparation, and I like sharpening, especially Blue and White, so the whole thing passes outside my needs.

Then, too, I find the ideal of a Maxamet or S110V kitchen knife grotesque, but, if pressed, I probably could not justify that. Which is fine. I'll be over here with my carbon steels and my stones, living happily.


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## pennman (Mar 21, 2021)

For the super steels:

M2
M4
T15 Rex
Maxamet
Rex 121
M390/204P/20CV
M398
S110V
Vanax
10V
4V


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## Qapla' (Mar 21, 2021)

My current semistainless knife is the Kanehide TK gyuto. I haven't bought or used a PM-steel knife yet.


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## dafox (Mar 21, 2021)

Qapla' said:


> My current semistainless knife is the Kanehide TK gyuto. I haven't bought or used a PM-steel knife yet.


I'm interested to try a Kanehide TK, I know it's one of @stringer 's favorite knives.


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## Eloh (Mar 22, 2021)

For my next custom knife I'm chosing between CPM3V, Vanadis 4E and Z Wear...


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## Barmoley (Mar 22, 2021)

Vanadis 4E or Z Wear all the way, we are talking kitchen knives, right? 3V is superior if you need higher toughness at 60 hrc or so, but for kitchen knives that's usually not what you are looking for. The other 2 are better at higher hardness, tough, more wear resistant. Z wear is more corrosion resistant and v4e should be a bit more wear resistant, same class in this regard so would be hard to tell the difference, toughness is in the same range too at the hardness range we care about for kitchen knives.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 22, 2021)

adam_Cullen said:


> supersteels



We know what you mean by 'supersteel' but it is an imprecise term. The real question is:



LostHighway said:


> What do you prioritize? Ease of sharpening? Edge retention? The potential to take an extremely fine edge? A high degree of stain resistance?





To some degree 'supersteels' are just the newer more exotic steels. A newer steel might make an older steel look less 'super'. As modern metallurgy has improved, alloys that address specific needs have been developed. This is more or less entirely in the service of heavy industry and engineering - tougher, harder, more heat resistant, more corrosion resistant... Some of these properties are difficult/impossible to maximise jointly (there is no real 'super' steel). For example, toughness and hardness are inversely related.


I have not explored as many steels as some members of the forum. I have a set of ZDP189 knives as daily drivers. For a home cook, I recommend seriously considering pursuing one of the higher-hardness, wear resistant steels. Low volume food prep is not the domain of hacking through logs, punching metal or milling hot steel. In domestic settings you can use a forgiving cutting board and mindful technique. I don't find sacrificing toughness for hardness to be a poor compromise (within limits). The extra edge retention you get with that compromise is useful in a domestic kitchen if you want to take sharpness for granted (or are lazy about sharpening).

Personally, I would really like to try REX-121 or Z-MAX at 70HRC. They may be approaching that limit of 'not tough enough'. My main requirement for toughness is 'reasonable' resistance to fracturing and chipping. I dont use any flexible filleting knives and prefer geometry with a thicker spine - so I am not sure I would benefit from the extra thinness that higher toughness would allow. Perhaps I have a poor understanding of the trade-offs... but I really don't see what practical advantage Z-Tuff would have in the kitchen (unless your parents and in-laws love to open cans with the tips of your knives)?

But that is just me...


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## DavidPF (Mar 22, 2021)

I guess there are sort of two points of view: 

Knives are certain to be abused. When that happens, should they bend, or should they break?
Please don't abuse knives, then we won't need to worry about POV #1.


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## Eloh (Mar 22, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Vanadis 4E or Z Wear all the way, we are talking kitchen knives, right? 3V is superior if you need higher toughness at 60 hrc or so, but for kitchen knives that's usually not what you are looking for. The other 2 are better at higher hardness, tough, more wear resistant. Z wear is more corrosion resistant and v4e should be a bit more wear resistant, same class in this regard so would be hard to tell the difference, toughness is in the same range too at the hardness range we care about for kitchen knives.



Yup, I thought that 3V at around 60Rc could be a really interesting combination as a kitchen knife steel, since i might be able to still hone it on a steel fairly successfully due to the high toughness/low hardness while still having better edge retention coming from the stones compared to your average aogami/1.2519 type steel at max hardness.
That's just in theory though 

But yeah I'm favoring ZWear at the moment, if I/we can get it in 5mm+ thickness


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## Michi (Mar 22, 2021)

For an affordable modern steel, I like stainless-clad SG-2. Quite forgiving, won't chip easily, and holds its edge for a long time. Takes a little longer to sharpen than carbon steel, but not annoyingly so. And you don't have to sharpen it as often. Being stainless is an added bonus.

HAP-40 has much the same characteristics; it is only semi-stainless, but has even better edge retention.

For a pragmatist, I think either steel is a good choice.


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## big_adventure (Mar 22, 2021)

ZDP, HAP40, R2/SG2 are all great choices. I haven't tried S90V/S110V or ZWear.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 22, 2021)

Rangen said:


> I don't disagree, really. I actually have a VG10 kitchen knife, a Hattori, that I think is very good. It's more that I've never actually yearned for a knife that would pass HHT throughout meal preparation, and I like sharpening, especially Blue and White, so the whole thing passes outside my needs.
> 
> Then, too, I find the ideal of a Maxamet or S110V kitchen knife grotesque, but, if pressed, I probably could not justify that. Which is fine. I'll be over here with my carbon steels and my stones, living happily.


Dont get me wrong. I love sharpening too, it's how I make half of my income. I would never replace my shirogami knives with a supersteel. I just feel like they have a good place in the kitchen knife world. 

I had the same feeling you had about supersteels, about diamond bonded resin whetstones. I didn't like the idea of using them. I liked having my jnats, and synthetic waterstones, and that was what I liked. Then I finally gave in and bought them, and I find myself jumping at an opportunity to use them.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 22, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> ZDP, HAP40, R2/SG2 are all great choices. I haven't tried S90V/S110V or ZWear.


S110v, k390, maxamet, and rex 121 are all notoriously wear resistant, and their edge holding ability is second to none, although I've heard some bad things about when it comes to sharpening s110v, although i didn't have too much of a hard time compared to other steels. It just takes time.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 22, 2021)

A steel I would really love to see in a kitchen. Knife is CTS-xhp. I've heard it can take a very fine edge, and holds it relatively well. Also that it's pretty easy to sharpen.


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## big_adventure (Mar 22, 2021)

One of my favorite knives is ZDP, and it's not all that hard to sharpen. No, it's not as effortless to raise and clear a burr as low alloy "carbon" steels are, but it's fine - I just take my time and it probably adds all of 3-5 minutes to the time it takes to sharpen, but the edge lasts so... damn... long... I brought it to HHT4 or so once, and it was still capable of HHT2 or 3 performance after an hour long hard prep session. My AS knives that I mostly used to optimize sharpening to that level sure can't say that.


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## pennman (Mar 22, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> S110v, k390, maxamet, and rex 121 are all notoriously wear resistant, and their edge holding ability is second to none, although I've heard some bad things about when it comes to sharpening s110v, although i didn't have too much of a hard time compared to other steels. It just takes time.


S110V sharpens surprisingly easily. Setting the edges is waaaaaayyyy easier than with M4. Regular King and suehiro stones sharpen it just fine in a few minutes in both the S110V I make and my S110V folders (that I don’t make). Rex 121 is a bear to sharpen.


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## pennman (Mar 22, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> A steel I would really love to see in a kitchen. Knife is CTS-xhp. I've heard it can take a very fine edge, and holds it relatively well. Also that it's pretty easy to sharpen.


I make lots of them. Sharpen easily and hold an edge significantly better than shirogami blades. Similar or slightly better edge holding than. Aogami super. Sharpens really easily and quickly the same way you’d sharpen blue or white steels.


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## daveb (Mar 22, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> A steel I would really love to see in a kitchen. Knife is CTS-xhp. I've heard it can take a very fine edge, and holds it relatively well. Also that it's pretty easy to sharpen.



Butch Harner uses CTS-xhp IIRC. Carpenter's steel? I've had a couple and enjoyed them. Won't part with my paring knife ever.


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## Barmoley (Mar 22, 2021)

Eloh said:


> Yup, I thought that 3V at around 60Rc could be a really interesting combination as a kitchen knife steel, since i might be able to still hone it on a steel fairly successfully due to the high toughness/low hardness while still having better edge retention coming from the stones compared to your average aogami/1.2519 type steel at max hardness.
> That's just in theory though
> 
> But yeah I'm favoring ZWear at the moment, if I/we can get it in 5mm+ thickness



You could probably do that with Z-Wear as well, it is very tough even at higher hardness, at 62 it is almost as tough as AEB-L at 62. Additional bonus would be that you would need to steel it less if the edge was harder. Alpha Knife Supply used to have Z-wear in thicker sheets, but I don't see it on their site anymore. Might be worth asking. Another option is lamination, but not simple and only few people know how to do it. You are right though even 3V at 60 would have better retention than simple carbons.


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## TonyZ (Mar 22, 2021)

the only "super steel" I have worked with is HAP40 from my old kohetsu. It held its edge for a stupid long time compared to my other japanese carbon steels. I do regret letting it go because it was a great knife for when I was cooking for large amounts of people (volunteering). It sharpened up easily enough on my shapton stones and some hap40 knives can be had pretty affordably.


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## vxd (Mar 23, 2021)

Would love a knife from BG-42 at 62 Rc.


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## Barmoley (Mar 23, 2021)

@Larrin new steel is da bomb.


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## McMan (Mar 23, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> @Larrin new steel is da bomb.


You tried it?!


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## toddnmd (Mar 23, 2021)

daveb said:


> Butch Carpenter uses CTS-xhp IIRC. Carpenter's steel? I've had a couple and enjoyed them. Won't part with my paring knife ever.



Youre talking about Butch Harner, right?
I really like my shorty gyuto and paring knives from him.


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## daveb (Mar 23, 2021)

Yep. Harner. Stumbled on the Carpenter part.


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## Mingooch (Mar 24, 2021)

Love my Elmax knife from Dalman


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## Barmoley (Mar 24, 2021)

McMan said:


> You tried it?!



Sorry missed your question. Yes I've tried it and so far like it very much. Probably the best balanced knife steel out there. Not saying best, there is no such thing, but best balanced. Doesn't patina and you wouldn't polish it with finger stones, so won't satisfy some folks. Also more difficult to sharpen than white 2, I am sure. Only touched it up on 6K vit diamond and it felt buttery smooth, reminded me of AEB-L in feel. Not saying it is as easy to sharpen as AEB-L, just on this stone, touching up the feel reminded me of it. It is very fine grained, so maybe that's the reason. It is also very stainless. It is in the Z-wear class of steels except more corrosion resistant and maybe easier to sharpen, don't know yet. To me Z-wear is not very difficult either, so my judgement might not be the best. Felt really good touching up.


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 24, 2021)

Eloh said:


> Yup, I thought that 3V at around 60Rc could be a really interesting combination as a kitchen knife steel, since i might be able to still hone it on a steel fairly successfully due to the high toughness/low hardness while still having better edge retention coming from the stones compared to your average aogami/1.2519 type steel at max hardness.
> That's just in theory though
> 
> But yeah I'm favoring ZWear at the moment, if I/we can get it in 5mm+ thickness


curious, what would you do with it at thickness?


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## M1k3 (Mar 24, 2021)

HSC /// Knives said:


> curious, what would you do with it at thickness?


Mazaki-ish workhorse-like clone?


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## daveb (Mar 24, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Mazaki-ish workhorse-like clone?



Which Maz? The Tues one or the Fri one? The spring model or the fall one? The 2017, 18, 19, or 20 series?


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## M1k3 (Mar 24, 2021)

daveb said:


> Which Maz? The Tues one or the Fri one? The spring model or the fall one? The 2017, 18, 19, or 20 series?


Yes.


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 24, 2021)

R2 Great edge retention, stainless, fairly easy to sharpen
AS Great edge retention, not as easy to sharpen, reactive 
ZDP 189 is a wild card. Pretty much maintenance free, edge lasts forever. Pain to sharpen and hard to find a knife in a configuration I like. Had a Sukenari ZDP Damascus which had a great profile, but the polished blade made everything stick to it like a magnate.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 24, 2021)

Chicagohawkie said:


> R2 Great edge retention, stainless, fairly easy to sharpen
> AS Great edge retention, not as easy to sharpen, reactive
> ZDP 189 is a wild card. Pretty much maintenance free, edge lasts forever. Pain to sharpen and hard to find a knife in a configuration I like. Had a Sukenari ZDP Damascus which had a great profile, but the polished blade made everything stick to it like a magnate.


You can always change the polish.


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 25, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> You can always change the polish.


Nah, knife was in pristine shape, sold it. I’d buy a Sukenari ZDP hairline 240 if one came up on BST.


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## killerloop (Mar 25, 2021)

CruWear Kemadi


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## Eloh (Mar 25, 2021)

HSC /// Knives said:


> curious, what would you do with it at thickness?


Basically a thicker spine out of the handle with a workhorsey geometry/lots of distal taper


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 25, 2021)

Eloh said:


> Basically a thicker spine out of the handle with a workhorsey geometry/lots of distal taper


I have a feeling that I’m the only one on this forum that doesn’t understand the value of that blade geometry.

I think you might be able to get Carpenter PD 1 in that thickness. Try like SB specialty metals. It’s not cheap.


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## big_adventure (Mar 25, 2021)

HSC /// Knives said:


> I have a feeling that I’m the only one on this forum that doesn’t understand the value of that blade geometry.
> 
> I think you might be able to get Carpenter PD 1 in that thickness. Try like SB specialty metals. It’s not cheap.



I think I understand people's attraction(s) to it :

1. They are getting a laser tip with a more resistant, certainly less flexible body. So I guess they feel confident being a bit rougher with it.

2. Continuing from that, the thickness in the middle should provide really good balance for an otherwise somewhat heavy blade.

3. Finally, it's what Kato workhorses are like, and everybody respects those. 

This is my extremely-limited collection of observations. For me, I have knives that are at no point over 1.8mm thick and they cut through anything, any time, and work beautifully, so it's certainly not the only way to accomplish something.


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 25, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I think I understand people's attraction(s) to it :
> 
> 1. They are getting a laser tip with a more resistant, certainly less flexible body. So I guess they feel confident being a bit rougher with it.
> 
> ...


Yes I get it and I’ve made them. But I’m not in favor of it. I get more and more requests for them, thick spine with dramatic taper. But put me in the thin category for preference and performance

someone send me a Kato please....


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## LostHighway (Mar 25, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I think I understand people's attraction(s) to it :
> 
> 1. They are getting a laser tip with a more resistant, certainly less flexible body. So I guess they feel confident being a bit rougher with it.
> 
> ...



For me the allure of knives with a thicker spine and significant distal taper are mostly about balance/feel in the hand and food release. There are exceptions that try the rule (@Kippington among them) but generally thinner knives don't do food release well.


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## big_adventure (Mar 25, 2021)

HSC /// Knives said:


> Yes I get it and I’ve made them. But I’m not in favor of it. I get more and more requests for them, thick spine with dramatic taper. But put me in the thin category for preference and performance
> 
> someone send me a Kato please....



Is there a sign-up sheet? I'd like to be on that one as well. 



LostHighway said:


> For me the allure of knives with a thicker spine and significant distal taper are mostly about balance/feel in the hand and food release. There are exceptions that try the rule (@Kippington among them) but generally thinner knives don't do food release well.



I'm not arguing - I get that's what people feel about it - but if you are using the front half of the knife, you are basically using a laser, and you are going to get laser-y food release, won't you? It doesn't matter if the spine is 4mm at the heel, if it's sub 2mm by mid blade and 1mm 25mm from the tip, the whole front half of the knife is in laser territory so the front half is only getting what grind you can do with that.

I agree that many or even _most_ thin knives don't do food release well. There are definitely exceptions, as you say, I have a couple myself.


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## HSC /// Knives (Mar 25, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Is there a sign-up sheet? I'd like to be on that one as well.


One to try out...


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## big_adventure (Mar 25, 2021)

That's what I mean, of course - who would want to _own_ a Kato? But drive someone else's like it's stolen? Hell yeah.

/s


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## ModRQC (Mar 25, 2021)

If you want to try geometry taper on the cheap look no further than Yoshikane. 

From experience most knives "Sanjo-like" over 3.5mm thickness, thicker part mostly happens out of the handle to heel, and will resume there to 3 - 3.5mm thick. Many won't have any much spinal taper from somewhere before mid blade to somewhere 30-40mm before tip. Taper is mostly concentrated at heel and ground at tip. Many will seem to have dramatic spinal taper, but up to some 20-30mm and even beyond over the edge thickness measurements are about the same throughout, hence there's no real geometry taper in the grind, or nothing as dramatic as the spine makes it look like - it starts to even out somewhere 10-20mm below spine.

Somewhat thicker spines (3mm) are nice for comfort. Thicker than that can be nice for the heft over the cut, workhorse feeling, but not really necessary in my opinion.

Yoshikane usually has truer geometry taper, spinal and throughout the blade.


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## big_adventure (Mar 25, 2021)

Yeah, most of the "workhorse" knives that I own or have had hands-on to measure show something like that: fat tang, dramatic taper to the heel, then less agressive taper for the rest of the spine. But the thickness over the edge at 5mm, 10mm, 15mm are really similar from heel to pretty close to the tip, meaning the fat 'n tapered spine is just offering weight and stiffness and doing effectively nothing for the "useful" grind. That's just my relatively-limited experience however.


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## LostHighway (Mar 25, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Is there a sign-up sheet? I'd like to be on that one as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I use the tip for more delicate work but if I'm going through onions, potatoes, or something similar in more volume, where release really matters, I move farther back on the blade. For softer produce I often use draw cuts so again I'm toward the back of the blade.


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## ModRQC (Mar 25, 2021)

As to answer the "best steel" question here, I sure find @Larrin new article on Knife Steel Nerds for a steel he developed a very interesting proposition for kitchen knives. I hope he won't mind me posting it here already:









CPM MagnaCut - The Next Breakthrough in Knife Steel - Knife Steel Nerds


CPM MagnaCut is a new stainless knife steel designed to be better than anything that has been available before. Is it a success?




knifesteelnerds.com


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## Eloh (Mar 25, 2021)

HSC /// Knives said:


> I have a feeling that I’m the only one on this forum that doesn’t understand the value of that blade geometry.
> 
> I think you might be able to get Carpenter PD 1 in that thickness. Try like SB specialty metals. It’s not cheap.



Honestly, for me it's mostly the comfort in pinch grip for volume prep at work. 
There are other factors but that's the most important to me.


@ModRQC
With just skimming through the article: it's basically very similar to Vanadis 4E/ CPM4V with better corrosion resistance, right?


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## Barmoley (Mar 25, 2021)

Eloh said:


> Honestly, for me it's mostly the comfort in pinch grip for volume prep at work.
> There are other factors but that's the most important to me.
> 
> 
> ...


Much better corrosion resistance, better than most other stainless steels used in knives. Or looking another way, much better toughness than any other high wear resistance stainless steel used in knives. It is also finer grained than other pm steels, so should be easier to grind and sharpen.

Basically if you are looking at a new kitchen knife project and you were set on 4v/v4e going with MagnaCut makes sense especially for a pro environment.


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## branwell (Mar 25, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> @Larrin new steel is da bomb.


Definitely going to get some of that to try.


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## Eloh (Mar 25, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Much better corrosion resistance, better than most other stainless steels used in knives. Or looking another way, much better toughness than any other high wear resistance stainless steel used in knives. It is also finer grained than other pm steels, so should be easier to grind and sharpen.
> 
> Basically if you are looking at a new kitchen knife project and you were set on 4v/v4e going with MagnaCut makes sense especially for a pro environment.


Im on it 
But it depends on price/shipping/availability in EU too, since im not going to pay a huge amount extra for something i dont really care that much about (corrosion resistance) but yeah, definitely very interesting steel


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## Luftmensch (Mar 25, 2021)

HSC /// Knives said:


> someone send me a Kato please....





HSC /// Knives said:


> One to try out...



Doh!!

You missed out on @tgfencer's generous Kato 240 Standard Passaround by a couple of months...


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## M1k3 (Mar 25, 2021)

HSC /// Knives said:


> Yes I get it and I’ve made them. But I’m not in favor of it. I get more and more requests for them, thick spine with dramatic taper. But put me in the thin category for preference and performance
> 
> someone send me a Kato please....


A thicker spine in the pinch grip area is a bit more comfortable when cutting cases of stuff plus the little extra weight helps with downward momentum. Like Yoshikane. They're basically on the verge of being a laser, but, the spine near the handle is a little thicker. Spreads the force out over a bigger surface.


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## Jason183 (Mar 25, 2021)

HSC /// Knives said:


> I have a feeling that I’m the only one on this forum that doesn’t understand the value of that blade geometry.
> 
> I think you might be able to get Carpenter PD 1 in that thickness. Try like SB specialty metals. It’s not cheap.


You’re not the only one, I don’t understand what’s the hype about heavy workhorse type of grind either I have tried few thick knives, basically anything over 4mm spine above the heel for me considering wedging monster. Distal taper helps when push cutting, but when you start cutting from heel to tip(slicing motion), food gets stuck or causing drag again.


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## M1k3 (Mar 25, 2021)

Jason183 said:


> You’re not the only one, I don’t understand what’s the hype about workhorse type of grind either I have tried few thick knives, basically anything over 4mm spine above the heel for me considering wedging monster. Distal taper helps when push cutting, but when you start cutting from heel to tip(slicing motion), food gets stuck or causing drag again.


On something like Yoshikane, the spine starts out thicker and tapers down. But the bevels are about the same thickness, except for the very tip portion. So it cuts the same along the edge.


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## M1k3 (Mar 25, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> On something like Yoshikane, the spine starts out thicker and tapers down. But the bevels are about the same thickness, except for the very tip portion. So it cuts the same along the edge.


An example highlighting it. Credit @Kippington


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## Jason183 (Mar 25, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> On something like Yoshikane, the spine starts out thicker and tapers down. But the bevels are about the same thickness, except for the very tip portion. So it cuts the same along the edge.


Yoshikane was exception, because not all of them are alike. Some of them are laserish, and some of them felt like mid workhorse. I only tried 2 so far, one was 4mm thick at the heel spine and it’s prone to wedge. Another was 3.2mm thick at the heel spine, felt much better cutting through food, liked you said the thick spine out of the handle really helps when cutting with forced, have more confidence and more comfortable, I also liked that comforness after tried the first Yoshikane that’s why would consider getting a thinner version, but I would stay away from anything over 4-5mm+ spine in the future preference, it really depends on what you cutting daily, all personal preference.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 25, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> A thicker spine in the pinch grip area is a bit more comfortable when cutting cases of stuff plus the little extra weight helps with downward momentum. Like Yoshikane. They're basically on the verge of being a laser, but, the spine near the handle is a little thicker. Spreads the force out over a bigger surface.




I have a bunka that is quite thick right at the spine and maybe for an inch or so. Afterward, in all directions, it tapers pretty quickly and significantly. So it has a nice thin profile and edge with a spear point but that little bit of thickness up by the handle is actually really nice. It's my only knife that has that and I instantly thought, "wow, I dig that!"


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## daveb (Mar 25, 2021)

HSC /// Knives said:


> someone send me a Kato please....



If I had one, I would send it. But there's a reason I don't have one.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYoshikane!


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## Luftmensch (Mar 26, 2021)

HSC /// Knives said:


> Yes I get it and I’ve made them. But I’m not in favor of it. I get more and more requests for them, thick spine with dramatic taper. But put me in the thin category for preference and performance





Every maker has their hallmark. You needn't yield to the masses. Make what interests you 

On the other hand, it is a pity you missed out on the Kato pass around (it finished in January). You would have had a chance to see what the 'hype' is all about. Whether it would have given you any new information or not is another story!


Here is a potentially controversial point. Customers/users may _*perceive*_ more craftsmanship in a spine with a dramatic taper. I am not suggesting this perception correlates with the truth - craftsmanship can be achieved via many routes. But generally speaking, you don't get dramatic tapered spines in mass manufactured knives. In that sense, a dramatic taper will contribute to the 'design language' of a hand-crafted blade, which may have appeal for the un/semi-informed.




M1k3 said:


> A thicker spine in the pinch grip area is a bit more comfortable



Definitely an ergonomic benefit.

Similarly, when using the palm of the non-cutting hand on the spine for extra cutting force, i find thicker spines more comfortable. It is a minority use case, but present nevertheless.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 26, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> As to answer the "best steel" question here, I sure find @Larrin new article on Knife Steel Nerds for a steel he developed a very interesting proposition for kitchen knives. I hope he won't mind me posting it here already:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder if this is the new stainless @Deadboxhero has been posting about on youtube, or at least similar.


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## Eloh (Mar 26, 2021)

I mean you need to use an appropriate cutting technique for a Kato type geometry to make sense. A laserish geometry is definitely more forgiving in that regard.
But a tapered geometry is more versatile imo.

Also the general concept is really nothing new, this is a 100 yo German chef knife.... This was the standard geometry when they made the best production knives back in the day...


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## Barmoley (Mar 26, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> I wonder if this is the new stainless @Deadboxhero has been posting about on youtube, or at least similar.


Yes, the same.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 26, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Yes, the same.


Nice, cool that they named it finally. It's a very interesting steel imo. I would love to see Pete from cedric and ada give it a test after it gets used in something production level.


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## pentryumf (Mar 26, 2021)

Just to chime in here,
ZDP is amazing. It will force you to learn to sharpen. It will make you fall in love with steel.
Roman with Kase knives is talking of a new super flex ceramic which sounds interesting.
My 2 favourite steels are zdp and Aogami Super.
I am however interested in trying MagnaCut if it becomes available.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 26, 2021)

pentryumf said:


> ZDP is amazing. It will force you to learn to sharpen. It will make you fall in love with steel.



Out of interest... why do you say ZDP will force you to learn how to sharpen? I find it more stubborn than other steels but not fundamentally different?

I am not sure if it is my favourite steel or not . I do _like it_... earlier I was careful to phrase it as 'high hardness, wear resistant steels'. I suspect I would like others like HAP72 or 10V.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 26, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Out of interest... why do you say ZDP will force you to learn how to sharpen? I find it more stubborn than other steels but not fundamentally different?
> 
> I am not sure if it is my favourite steel or not . I do _like it_... earlier I was careful to phrase it as 'high hardness, wear resistant steels'. I suspect I would like others like HAP72 or 10V.


Not OP, but I could see his point. If you can get a steel that takes longer to wear down as sharp as you can get shirogami, or something similar it shows you have at least some skill. Or it will force you to learn keep your angles consistent if you want to get it sharp.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 26, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Not OP, but I could see his point. If you can get a steel that takes longer to wear down as sharp as you can get shirogami, or something similar it shows you have at least some skill. Or it will force you to learn keep your angles consistent if you want to get it sharp.





I definitely think it would be a difficult steel to learn how to sharpen on... like i say... It hasn't caused me to change my technique but i find it stubborn and tenacious. I suppose in that regard, to get anywhere with it you have to be a tad more persistent! That extra practice might be good for your skill levels


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## pentryumf (Mar 26, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> I definitely think it would be a difficult steel to learn how to sharpen on... like i say... It hasn't caused me to change my technique but i find it stubborn and tenacious. I suppose in that regard, to get anywhere with it you have to be a tad more persistent! That extra practice might be good for your skill levels



I agree a user may not find it ideal to learn sharpening using ZDP, the appreciation will come about due to its ease of micro chipping due to acuteness of bevel and why leaving a highly abraded edge kills longevity.
ZDP performs marvellously if given a ~22 deg primary bevel and stropped.
It is not for everyone and still a bit pricey.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 26, 2021)

pentryumf said:


> I agree a user may not find it ideal to learn sharpening using ZDP, the appreciation will come about due to its ease of micro chipping due to acuteness of bevel and why leaving a highly abraded edge kills longevity.



One of my blades was super chippy when new. Not big chips. Micro chips - almost teeny-tiny serrations. After thinning out the factory edge steel, the effect is gone. For my use, I dont find it chippy. The hardness is useful for keeping stable acute angles.


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## big_adventure (Mar 26, 2021)

Couldn't agree more with both of you for ZDP. If the edge is too narrow or too rough, it can chip - just like anything else, especially things focused on hardness over toughness.

On mine, it got a couple of little chips in the first couple of weeks on it's original factory edge. I then sharpened it and it's been unchippable since. I cut everything with it - including pineapples, butternuts, mountains of carrots and sweet potatoes and leeks and everything and it devours everything. The edge lasts several times as long as AS in my use. Last time I sharpened it, I also sharpened a AS gyuto. Getting both up to scary sharp took 3.5 minutes longer on the ZDP blade than the AS blade. That's a ludicrously small difference.


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## Andrei (Mar 28, 2021)

I also do not understand why many people say that sharpening super steel is long and difficult, my practice shows that sharpening them a little longer and not all stones can cope with this, but there is definitely nothing difficult.
They also wrote above about CPM-3V with a hardness of 60HRC, for steel with increased ductility this hardness is not enough. CPM-3V steel with a hardness of 60HRC has two times worse edge retention than with a hardness of 63HRC. Also, you will not get a chip with a hardness of 63HRC, enough ductility is retained in the steel.
As for the main issue of the topic, the steel K390 and REX121 should be taken into account .


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## big_adventure (Mar 28, 2021)

You don't sharpen Rex 121, Rex 121 sharpens YOU.


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## Barmoley (Mar 28, 2021)

Andrei said:


> I also do not understand why many people say that sharpening super steel is long and difficult, my practice shows that sharpening them a little longer and not all stones can cope with this, but there is definitely nothing difficult.
> They also wrote above about CPM-3V with a hardness of 60HRC, for steel with increased ductility this hardness is not enough. CPM-3V steel with a hardness of 60HRC has two times worse edge retention than with a hardness of 63HRC. Also, you will not get a chip with a hardness of 63HRC, enough ductility is retained in the steel.
> As for the main issue of the topic, the steel K390 and REX121 should be taken into account .


I agree in general, but I think different steels excel at different qualities and are optimized for different applications. I haven't seen anyone push cpm-3v to 63HRC, but I read somewhere that its toughness falls dramatically at higher hardness to levels below 4v or cpm-cruwear/Z-wear/PD1. Maybe @Larrin or @Deadboxhero actually know. So if you are pushing steel outside of its best working parameters maybe choosing a different steel is a better option.


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## Andrei (Mar 29, 2021)

Recently, I have made a few nakiri from 3V 63HRC steel, you need to ask the new owners of these knives about the strength and durability of such a blade.


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## Deadboxhero (Mar 29, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> You don't sharpen Rex 121, Rex 121 sharpens YOU.



Certainly ain't using no shapton glass stones.

Using the right stones and a good HT and geometry, Rex121 ain't no biggie.


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## big_adventure (Mar 29, 2021)

I was really kidding anyway. Even SGs can sharpen Rex with enough patience. A huge, gigantic mountain of patience.

Nice work on your edges there. Beating a Feather isn't easy - I use those and they are damn sharp.


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## Deadboxhero (Mar 29, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I was really kidding anyway. Even SGs can sharpen Rex with enough patience. A huge, gigantic mountain of patience.
> 
> Nice work on your edges there. Beating a Feather isn't easy - I use those and they are damn sharp.


Edge doesn't come up as Crisp on the SG.

The abrasive in the SG is not hard enough to cut the harder carbides into the apex shape.
Sure, with enough patience everything gets "sharp" when you burnish and break the carbides to shape enough but it just doesn't get as "crisp" as when you up simply cut everything down to shape on a steel like this.


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## esoo (Mar 29, 2021)

CA_cook said:


> So nobody mentioned ZDP189? It’s a heresy here to mention a retail knife but the Myabi Black series is actually quite outstanding. ZDP189 blade, beautiful handle and flawless fit and finish. Other than a real pain to sharpen, no complaints.



I made the mistake of buying on the santoku - it may be a great steel, but damn is it thick and was a wedge monster. I suspect a good thinning of it would make it a fantastic cutter, but then you mess with the damascus. I sold mine after the second prep with it.


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## big_adventure (Mar 29, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> Edge doesn't come up as Crisp on the SG.
> 
> The abrasive in the SG is not hard enough to cut the harder carbides into the apex shape.
> Sure, with enough patience everything gets "sharp" when you burnish and break the carbides to shape enough but it just doesn't get as "crisp" as when you up simply cut everything down to shape on a steel like this.



Yeah, I know - I was just ensuring that there was some text in place to clarify that it's possible if very far from advisable. I mean, you _can_ sharpen super hard steels with a soft Zwilling steel honing rod. You can't do a good job with any kind of ease, but there will be some adhesive wear and that's theoretically all you'd need.


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## GorillaGrunt (Mar 29, 2021)

I’ve been really intrigued by Markin’s steels, audacious choices like T15 and M398. looking forward to trying one someday!


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## Andrei (Mar 30, 2021)

GorillaGrunt said:


> I’ve been really intrigued by Markin’s steels, audacious choices like T15 and M398. looking forward to trying one someday!


I am ready to help you !


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## pennman (Mar 30, 2021)

Deadboxhero said:


> Certainly ain't using no shapton glass stones.
> 
> Using the right stones and a good HT and geometry, Rex121 ain't no biggie.


How much did you finish that blade prior to heat treating it? Who did the heat treat?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Mar 30, 2021)

pennman said:


> How much did you finish that blade prior to heat treating it? Who did the heat treat?



More than likely, Shawn did it himself.

He's got a few heat treating-related videos on his channel: 



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC-Y6zU-FcjYFWmM3hKNWtQ


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## Delat (Mar 30, 2021)

Andrei said:


> I also do not understand why many people say that sharpening super steel is long and difficult, my practice shows that sharpening them a little longer and not all stones can cope with this, but there is definitely nothing difficult.
> They also wrote above about CPM-3V with a hardness of 60HRC, for steel with increased ductility this hardness is not enough. CPM-3V steel with a hardness of 60HRC has two times worse edge retention than with a hardness of 63HRC. Also, you will not get a chip with a hardness of 63HRC, enough ductility is retained in the steel.
> As for the main issue of the topic, the steel K390 and REX121 should be taken into account .



You definitely need the right stones for harder stainless steels. I first tried hand-sharpening a vg10 Shun with my woodworking waterstones that I bought about 24 years ago. I made practically zero progress to the point that I thought the problem was me. 

Replaced the stones with shapton glass and OMG it was night and day. Those old stones were great for plain old iron handplane blades though.


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## Deadboxhero (Mar 30, 2021)

pennman said:


> How much did you finish that blade prior to heat treating it? Who did the heat treat?


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