# Whetstone help



## mantrarxidia (Jan 26, 2018)

I am looking to upgrade my whestones. My knives range from wusthofs, to carbon as, to hard stainless like zdp 189. 

From what I've read so far I think I'll go with an atoma 400 for flattening, shapton 320 for thinning/chips. I want to add a 1k, a 3k and/or a 5k, I don't think higher grit will be useful but I've only recently gotten okay at sharpening so correct me if I'm wrong.

My question is, should I go with sigma, chosera, suehiro or shapton pro/glass? Are there any other stones I haven't considered?

I live in europe. My budget is around 400 euros but I'd rather buy good stones slowly even if they exceed said budget than go for cheaper and worse.

thank you for your time


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## daveb (Jan 26, 2018)

Good strategy. 

I've been very well served with splash and go stones from Japanese Natural Stones. Maxim's JNS 300 is the best coarse stone I've used. Like his 1K and 6K a lot. Downstream can add a 800 for cosmetics and a synthetic aoto for fun.


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## deskjockey (Jan 29, 2018)

mantrarxidia said:


> ...
> From what I've read so far I think I'll go with an atoma 400 for flattening, shapton 320 for thinning/chips. I want to add a 1k, a 3k and/or a 5k, I don't think higher grit will be useful but I've only recently gotten okay at sharpening so correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> My question is, should I go with sigma, chosera, suehiro or shapton pro/glass? Are there any other stones I haven't considered?
> ...



I'm basically where you are at the moment. I'm thinking about a 1K King "Hyper", Chosera, or Suehiro Cerax (Japanese market stone).

The King and Suehiro seem to be about the same price and a good bit cheaper than the Chosera though, an 800 grit Chosera is a similar cost. I'm trying to figure out real "value" and which of these stones are best for me in terms of feel, edge finish, and overall durability (dishing, fast wear, etc.).


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## PalmRoyale (Jan 29, 2018)

The 1K King Hyper is a very nice stone but the Shapton Pro 1000 is also a very good and very fast stone. I recently got to try the Shapton Pro 5000 with a Naniwa Irodori 5000 grit synthetic nagura and that was a great and very fast combination. The Shapton on it's own is meh but with the nagura is was very nice. As for a 3K stone I can recommend the Shapton Glass 3000. I like that stone so much. It has a smooth creamy feel and the feedback is very good. Plus it's very, very fast. The Shapton Pro 2000 is also well regarded and many people say it's the best stone in the Pro series.


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## mantrarxidia (Jan 29, 2018)

I think I'll go with a 1k/3k sigma and a 5k suehiro rika. I was told sigma select 2 are designed for high speed steels like zdp 189, but still perform great with other steels. 

What steels have you tried the shapton glass 3k with?

I don't think I'll buy a 2k as I really like how a 1k performs, going 1k->2k->3k is a bit of an overkill no? I feel like 1k->3k->5k is a more natural progression than 2k->5k. I could be wrong that's just how I understand sharpening so far.


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## deskjockey (Jan 29, 2018)

A 1K to 5K jump isn't too bad. I tend to think a 1K-3K-5K progression is overkill.

I considered an 800 Chosera, 2K Shapton/Cerax, and a TBD 5K/6K stone to be a good progression but, now will likely stop at the 1K/2K grit thinking I don't really benefit from a super-polished edge with what I cut in the kitchen.

So, for me probably either a King Hyper 1K or Suehiro 1K and done for now as I don't see chips in my future though, the Choser 800 is still being considered.


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## Grunt173 (Jan 29, 2018)

deskjockey said:


> A 1K to 5K jump isn't too bad. I tend to think a 1K-3K-5K progression is overkill.
> 
> I considered an 800 Chosera, 2K Shapton/Cerax, and a TBD 5K/6K stone to be a good progression but, now will likely stop at the 1K/2K grit thinking I don't really benefit from a super-polished edge with what I cut in the kitchen.
> 
> So, for me probably either a King Hyper 1K or Suehiro 1K and done for now as I don't see chips in my future though, the Choser 800 is still being considered.



The Chosera 800 really is a very nice stone as is the Shapton Pro 2k.


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## PalmRoyale (Jan 29, 2018)

mantrarxidia said:


> I was told sigma select 2 are designed for high speed steels like zdp 189, but still perform great with other steels.


I have the Sigma Select II 6000 and it's an awesome stone. White steel, Blue steel, A2, PM-V11, ZDP 189, HAP40, it doesn't care what you throw at it.



> What steels have you tried the shapton glass 3k with?


White steel, Blue steel, A2, O1, PM-V11, and HSS. It's faster on White, Blue, A2 and O1 than any other stone out there. It's a little bit slower on PM-V11 and it still manages to remove metal from HSS although slowly.


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## mantrarxidia (Jan 30, 2018)

deskjockey said:


> A 1K to 5K jump isn't too bad. I tend to think a 1K-3K-5K progression is overkill.
> 
> I considered an 800 Chosera, 2K Shapton/Cerax, and a TBD 5K/6K stone to be a good progression but, now will likely stop at the 1K/2K grit thinking I don't really benefit from a super-polished edge with what I cut in the kitchen.
> 
> So, for me probably either a King Hyper 1K or Suehiro 1K and done for now as I don't see chips in my future though, the Choser 800 is still being considered.



I hope I won't have to deal with any chips either but I want to do some thinning, and while I do enjoy sharpening, I'm really not looking forward to thinning with a 1k. 

1k->3k->5/6k I think is a bit smoother than 800->2k->5k/6k


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## LucasFur (Jan 30, 2018)

OP, I sharpen a decent amount of R2, and have sharpened my zdp a couple times. 
Right now, im loving my Sigma stones, they need a soaking but they cut very well. 
Everything I have seen the choseras are just as good for PM/HSS steels. 
Also look into Naniwa Diamond stones, they dont need flattening and cut the fastest, but $$$. 

I would almost say with that budget grab a variety, go from there. 

And i think you guys are over thinking it about progression. 3
General rule of thumb I like to go by is 4x the grit. 1K-4K(ish)-12K(ish).. alternatively 400-1200(ish). Carter goes 1k-6k, fine 6x refinement but he spends the time on the 6k and hes using white steel.


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## liren1 (Jan 30, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> OP, I sharpen a decent amount of R2, and have sharpened my zdp a couple times.
> Right now, im loving my Sigma stones, they need a soaking but they cut very well.
> Everything I have seen the choseras are just as good for PM/HSS steels.



I agree regarding Chosera, although I've been sharpening 2-3 years, I don't do it that often, so I'd rate myself 'medium minus'. I have an R2 knife (Ryusen Blazen), I get pretty good results with Chosera 1k followed by the 3k, not as good as on a white 2 steel, but not bad either. So Choseras definitely work.


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## mantrarxidia (Jan 30, 2018)

deskjockey said:


> A 1K to 5K jump isn't too bad. I tend to think a 1K-3K-5K progression is overkill.
> 
> I considered an 800 Chosera, 2K Shapton/Cerax, and a TBD 5K/6K stone to be a good progression but, now will likely stop at the 1K/2K grit thinking I don't really benefit from a super-polished edge with what I cut in the kitchen.
> 
> So, for me probably either a King Hyper 1K or Suehiro 1K and done for now as I don't see chips in my future though, the Choser 800 is still being considered.





LucasFur said:


> OP, I sharpen a decent amount of R2, and have sharpened my zdp a couple times.
> Right now, im loving my Sigma stones, they need a soaking but they cut very well.
> Everything I have seen the choseras are just as good for PM/HSS steels.
> Also look into Naniwa Diamond stones, they dont need flattening and cut the fastest, but $$$.
> ...



I was gonna say I don't mind buying a couple stones at a time if nania diamond stones are that good, but only place I found them in europe is amazon.uk, the 1k went for 750 pounds, so I think sigma select 2 is what I'll do


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## deskjockey (Jan 30, 2018)

Sigma Select II seem to be optimized for the newer PM steels so, it is probably an 'optimal' choice for you.

Chosera's seem like really good stones too but, I tend to think they are overkill for me right now. They are also more expensive. My steels are more 'average' so, a 1K Suehiro Cerax or King Hyper 1K are both probably better for me at a ~$65 price point.


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## rick alen (Feb 1, 2018)

American ebay has the niniwa diamond for $140-200
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...stone.TRS0&_nkw=niniwa+diamond+stone&_sacat=0

Jon's diamond stones seem a far greater value, 1+6K set sells for around $300 and has 4x the diamond thickness.


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## PalmRoyale (Feb 1, 2018)

deskjockey said:


> Sigma Select II seem to be optimized for the newer PM steels so, it is probably an 'optimal' choice for you.



The Select II stones have been around a long time and they were designed specifically to cut HSS. As it happens this also makes them very good for cutting PM steels. It wasn't until toolsfromjapan started selling them that they became known in the west with mostly wood workers.


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## chinacats (Feb 1, 2018)

I'd sip the 3k and just go 1k>5k,,,better yet splurge and get the gesshin 1k and 6k diamonds suggested.


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## mantrarxidia (Feb 1, 2018)

Would an 8k make a difference on hss/carbon or do you stop at 5-6k unless you are going for aesthetics?

The problem with buying gesshin stones is that i have to pay a 50% import fee on the total cost(shipping+value).


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## deskjockey (Feb 2, 2018)

mantrarxidia said:


> Would an 8k make a difference on hss/carbon or do you stop at 5-6k unless you are going for aesthetics?
> 
> The problem with buying gesshin stones is that i have to pay a 50% import fee on the total cost(shipping+value).



:Ooooh: That's horrendous! It sounds like you need to stick to stuff in the EU with import duties like that but, then again doesn't the shop you buy from have to pay import duties as well? Maybe they bring them in somewhere else that doesn't rip you off as hard .... hmm ...


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## buffhr (Feb 2, 2018)

deskjockey said:


> :Ooooh: That's horrendous! It sounds like you need to stick to stuff in the EU with import duties like that but, then again doesn't the shop you buy from have to pay import duties as well? Maybe they bring them in somewhere else that doesn't rip you off as hard .... hmm ...



Yeah here in finland it is also pretty ridiculous... e.g. order a 200 knife have 35 shipping then add 12% custom fee then 24% tax, and u end up paying customs on shipping cost and taxes on item/shipping and custom fee, total would be 326.37, so yeah within EU shopping is often more lucrative even if the item is much higher priced.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 2, 2018)

My first choice would be JKI's diamond stones, specially due to your zdp 189 blades. If that's not possible, my second choice would be getting a JNS 300, JNS 6k and AI #1000 from Watanabe, besides the atoma. Never tried Sigma Select or Chosera, though.


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## mantrarxidia (Feb 2, 2018)

How long would the jki diamond stones last? Would an atoma 400/120 be okay to flatten them? Would those 2 + something to flatten be enough?

I can buy an atoma 120 or 400(9 euros difference), sigma 400, sigma 1k, sigma 6k for 278/287 shipping included. 1k+6k jki diamond stones would cost me around 400 euros, so within budget, but is the difference worth it? If they really are worth it and are going to last a long time I can justify it as an investment. The price difference between sigma/atoma combo and jki stones is basically import fees which I really hate


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## chinacats (Feb 2, 2018)

One of the upsides to the JKI diamond stones is that they don't need to be flattened so you can skip the flattener.


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## PalmRoyale (Feb 2, 2018)

I think Jon said in his youtube review of his diamond stones that they wear very slowly and that he flattens them once a year.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 2, 2018)

mantrarxidia said:


> How long would the jki diamond stones last?



I don't use mine much, only on those hard to sharpen, good quality steels. Mine is a couple of years already and i still didn't see any wearing. Of course, Jon uses them more frequently than i.


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## JBroida (Feb 2, 2018)

mantrarxidia said:


> How long would the jki diamond stones last? Would an atoma 400/120 be okay to flatten them? Would those 2 + something to flatten be enough?
> 
> I can buy an atoma 120 or 400(9 euros difference), sigma 400, sigma 1k, sigma 6k for 278/287 shipping included. 1k+6k jki diamond stones would cost me around 400 euros, so within budget, but is the difference worth it? If they really are worth it and are going to last a long time I can justify it as an investment. The price difference between sigma/atoma combo and jki stones is basically import fees which I really hate



i wouldnt recommend using an atoma or similar stone to flatten them. It would waste a ton of stone and wear down your atoma. Use the included nagura to work down the high spots.


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## deskjockey (Feb 2, 2018)

mantrarxidia said:


> How long would the jki diamond stones last? Would an atoma 400/120 be okay to flatten them? Would those 2 + something to flatten be enough?
> 
> I can buy an atoma 120 or 400(9 euros difference), sigma 400, sigma 1k, sigma 6k for 278/287 shipping included. 1k+6k jki diamond stones would cost me around 400 euros, so within budget, but is the difference worth it? If they really are worth it and are going to last a long time I can justify it as an investment. The price difference between sigma/atoma combo and jki stones is basically import fees which I really hate



For your situation and expectations, the Sigma stones seem like the obvious choice. Take the ~100 Euros you save and buy a good knife or something else you need more. I'm sure the JKI's are really nice but, with all the import fees I wouldn't do it myself. As to being better or lasting longer, after you wear out the Sigma's you will have a much better idea of what you really want.


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## JBroida (Feb 2, 2018)

Yeah... customs can get expensive for sure


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## PalmRoyale (Feb 3, 2018)

Especially when you go over 150 because then you also have to pay an import tax on top of the VAT.


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## mantrarxidia (Feb 3, 2018)

We have a 50% import fee above 150 euros. I think I'll get the sigma stones for now and if I decide to buy jki stones/american products down the line, I'll just buy a plane ticket.

As far as knives go, if I'm buying a knife with a blade over 20cm I can't have it declared as a knife or I have to get permission from the police. BUT WAIT! the police doesn't know about that so they redirect you to the airport police. BUT WAIT! airport police says it's up to customs police?security? BUT WAIT! when you call the customs office it's not their job, it's up to your local police station. So now you've gone full circle. On the upside, you can declare whatever you want and no one cares.

Thank you for your help everyone


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## PalmRoyale (Feb 3, 2018)

You can get the Sigma Select II stones at fine-tools in Germany. Not taxes or import fee because EU.


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## mantrarxidia (Feb 3, 2018)

PalmRoyale said:


> You can get the Sigma Select II stones at fine-tools in Germany. Not taxes or import fee because EU.



that's where I was planning to buy them from


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## PalmRoyale (Feb 3, 2018)

Btw, the Sigma Select II 6000 is a very good stone. It's my favourite synthetic in that grit range. The 1200 wasn't my cup of tea though. It dishes fast, it feels coarser than it is and I actually found it to be too aggressive.


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## mantrarxidia (Feb 3, 2018)

PalmRoyale said:


> Btw, the Sigma Select II 6000 is a very good stone. It's my favourite synthetic in that grit range. The 1200 wasn't my cup of tea though. It dishes fast, it feels coarser than it is and I actually found it to be too aggressive.



I'll go atoma 140 or 400, sigma 400,1k,probably skip 3k,6k. I don't see a 1.2k or a 12k in case you meant that. Will order next week because of very strong economy that doesn't restrict $$$/week/month for purchases outside of greece


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## PalmRoyale (Feb 3, 2018)

I see fine tools no longer sells the 1200. I bought mine from them.


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## labor of love (Feb 18, 2020)

PalmRoyale said:


> I see fine tools no longer sells the 1200. I bought mine from them.





PalmRoyale said:


> Btw, the Sigma Select II 6000 is a very good stone. It's my favourite synthetic in that grit range. The 1200 wasn't my cup of tea though. It dishes fast, it feels coarser than it is and I actually found it to be too aggressive.


any idea if the sigma select 1k is better than the 1200?


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## kayman67 (Feb 18, 2020)

I don't think better is the word. Just different.
1200 was loved more by most people as it was fast enough, but more resilient to dishing. My guess is that the 1000 wasn't fully understood. It needs a fair amount of soaking and just let the stone work. I have one for years and never experienced fast dishing. It saw dozens of knives.


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## labor of love (Feb 18, 2020)

I can’t find much info about the sigma 1k at all, but the 1200 has quite a reputation. I’m just curious how it performs.
Maybe I’ll just grab a king hyper.


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## kayman67 (Feb 18, 2020)

Porosity is high, "binder" is on the weak side (technically it doesn't have one). Needs soaking, 30min or more for proper performance. No scratches behind. Cuts anything faster than mostly anything.


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