# Takeda orderd directly from Shosui



## wphill (May 24, 2016)

Well, I got off the fence and made the order. Mentioning this in case others have already done so or might do so.
It seems to be a fact that the newer grinds lack certain elements... that WOW factor. 
I've never had one of his knives in hand so I'm mostly conjuring up in my head the specifics without getting too technical.
I've asked for an s grind, flexible but sturdy, tall bevel, thin behind the edge, high blade road, all carbon, beautiful KU, Santoku like profile, 60mm tall, 210-220 mm long.
Shosui has been very prompt in his communication. Best I can say is that he is ok with my request. Word from others is that he wants to please.
I didnt' say anything about the handle..but here's one that I saw when googling. 





His site sells natural stones....curious if there is one in the 100usd range as a finishing stone. Nakayama Koppa
&#12288;&#12288;(Kyoei)


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## DanHumphrey (May 24, 2016)

Please let us know how it goes when it arrives! With lots of peekshures.


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## wphill (May 24, 2016)

I'm going to guess...delivery will be in two months..which is the soonest likely.
I say this because Shosui has been reliably prompt and friendly. 
Let me reiterate...he sells natural stones...might have more than just what is on the website.
Need not be pricey IF I can get the right match for the Takeda. Suggestions welcome. Not a must.
Stroking, I mean stropping, a good beveled steel as a way to end a prep session...I find addicting.
Yes, I am excited. Did my due diligence knowing the risk involved.


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## Godslayer (May 24, 2016)

Let me know how this turns out. I want a takeda NAS 300mm/65mm for my collection but dont want to sell out $500+ on a lemon. The guy makes a seriously attractive knife with an interesting grind / profile


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## aboynamedsuita (May 24, 2016)

Godslayer said:


> Let me know how this turns out. I want a takeda NAS 300mm/65mm for my collection but dont want to sell out $500+ on a lemon. The guy makes a seriously attractive knife with an interesting grind / profile



I'll also let you know how mine is when it comes back from JKI, you can see it in its current state shown (it's the one on the left in this link):
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ing-and-refinishing-we-do?p=418142#post418142

Hard to believe to other one originally had even smaller bevels than mine. I'm looking forward to see what Jon is able to do to it.


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## wphill (May 24, 2016)

Jon is the last stop to make the customer happy, but I think even Jon might agree that we just as well
get something that at least is not more than the usual thinning behind the edge without having to thin the knife, move the road blade,
and still do justice to the underlying or intended geometry. 

In the meantime, I am hopeful and take it at face value that Shosui wants us happy as well. Love that choil shot of the S grind. 
I'm in. Leap of faith.


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## Godslayer (May 24, 2016)

tjangula said:


> I'll also let you know how mine is when it comes back from JKI, you can see it in its current state shown (it's the one on the left in this link):
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ing-and-refinishing-we-do?p=418142#post418142
> 
> Hard to believe to other one originally had even smaller bevels than mine. I'm looking forward to see what Jon is able to do to it.



Are you getting it etched as well. That black may be even darker than my ittinommon cleaver.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 24, 2016)

Godslayer said:


> Are you getting it etched as well. That black may be even darker than my ittinommon cleaver.



Ya we spoke yesterday and I requested to etch as well


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## wphill (May 28, 2016)

The ultimate Takeda grind.
Think sexual.
&#12375;&#12394;&#12420;&#12363;&#12394;
Shinayakana


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## MAS4T0 (May 28, 2016)

wphill said:


> Shinayakana



I had no idea what you were saying, so I googled it... :eyebrow:


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## XooMG (May 28, 2016)

Wonder if that friendly exchange between Takeda and Maksim and some other elements of the community is still floating around online.


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## wphill (May 28, 2016)

xoomg...while trying to do some due diligence prior to a direct order, I did see where I think it was a "magnus"?....are you thinking of the individual who provided a drawing,
exacting specs in mm, and asked for two flat spots? If so, he recently had it in classified at another website. And, going back in the archives ...around 2014...there seemed
to be be a history of nice interchanges but the outcomes were inconsistent. In all fairness to Shosui, we really don't know the quality of communication attempted by
the buyer. My intent is to offer general guidelines and trust him enough to capture what gave his knife such a wow factor prior to sometime around 20010. I do remember
that you made a post that others were being too harsh while yet understanding one's disappointment. 

As an aisde, I have read that only 20% of those who purchase j-knives sharpen themselves. If that's the case, I can understand how Shosui and other blacksmiths
went to a more "roboust" grind. All that is another story.

I'm taking it at face value that Shosui wants to please and my intent is to be a "good customer", by which I mean who reasonably explains what he wants. 
After looking at various choil shots, and I never know for sure which are OOTB and which are post sharpening, the best of the lot that I can
only imagine since I have never held a Takeda, is that it be:
flexible but sturdy,
thin behind the edge,
s grind and noticeably so, 
tall bevel
shoulder at the blade road tapered vs "hippy"

In sum, I my attempt to characterize some awesome choil shots as "svelte" and hence the japanese translation posted above.

Here are a few shots...which one would be your favorite?
The first is from a thinning by Jon Broida.The others I don't have a source note.
















Below look less desirable...too much shoulder or shoulder too low..I think...'cause maybe, to be one own's devil adovate, maybe one should be careful to not ask for a grind that is going to be too thin and too brittle.










Never known there to be an opition for a handle upgrade, nor do I know how enthusiasts feel about the stock handle. Though, I have read that epoxy is used which possibly makes handle removal more difficult.
This handle looks awfully nice to me, as well as the whole blade face.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 28, 2016)

Second pictur is a direct order NAS gyuto from cclin. Once Jon is done with mine I'll update the thread for your info. He did say that the OOTB on mine was better than the one on the first picture (mine is the one on the left in the original thread).

You'd probably be best to talk to a custom handle maker if you want an upgrade. I found the stock handle on my 270 NAS gyuto too small. I think I wrote down the original specs prior to removing (there is epoxy, so destructive removal was required) so if I can find them I'll post


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## XooMG (May 28, 2016)

wphill said:


> xoomg...while trying to do some due diligence prior to a direct order, I did see where I think it was a "magnus"?....are you thinking of the individual who provided a drawing,
> exacting specs in mm, and asked for two flat spots? If so, he recently had it in classified at another website. And, going back in the archives ...around 2014...there seemed
> to be be a history of nice interchanges but the outcomes were inconsistent. In all fairness to Shosui, we really don't know the quality of communication attempted by
> the buyer. My intent is to offer general guidelines and trust him enough to capture what gave his knife such a wow factor prior to sometime around 20010. I do remember
> that you made a post that others were being too harsh while yet understanding one's disappointment.


Nah, I was referring to a simian feces fight on facebook between JNS's Maksim, a bunch of community nerds and groupies, and Mr. Takeda. Sadly it is no longer at the link I had before...would be funny if someone preserved it.


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## wphill (May 28, 2016)

Here's the thread
http://www.kitchenknifefora.com/thr...-knife-sharpening-and-refinishing-we-do.3266/
Did not that first pix be one that was already thinned?
I would like to find one choil shot...estimation of something ideal...to send to mr. Takeda


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## chinacats (May 28, 2016)

I think he's going to send you a standard ground knife...my understanding is that he believes his current grind to be what people want (and he believes it to be a very good grind)...I'd be very surprised if you can get what you think you want...also if you've not cut with any of these, how exactly do you know what you want? FWIW, best bet is likely what Tanner did but that basically adds a bunch of cash to the bottom line...almost forgot the rehandle, so guessing T's knife has $5-600 in it _minimum_.

Not to be negative, but this is why I don't want another Takeda.


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## JBroida (May 28, 2016)

i think people forget that there is no single ideal grind... they all have pros and cons. Not everyone will be ok with the super thin ground ones... they move through food well, but are brittle and require great finesse in use. The thicker ones have much better toughness and food release. Its important to be introspective and take a good look at where your skills lie (in use, sharpening, maintenance, etc.), and also what is important to you in terms of knife performance. You may want the thinnest grind, but may not be capable of using it without chipping it. You may want better food release, but get frustrated when it wedges. You may want it to move through food more easily, but be frustrated with foods stick to the sides. There's always a tradeoff, and its important to be smart about taking time to understand the limits of your abilities relative to what you want.


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## wphill (May 28, 2016)

All good points. Is there a middle ground? Might be nice to have have a continuum to choose from. No surprises. 
Just spent a prep session mincing a weekly five plus pounds of veg produce. And, not a clue as to how to grade my skills. Maintenance is very good. That I am confident about? Need to be in an intermediate to advanced class to know about level of knife application. Most classes here are very basic. The local culinary school might be a resource. Food for thought, but I don't want to give up on the notion that Shosui wants to please.


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## JBroida (May 28, 2016)

it really depends on each person... i probably wouldnt go as thin as i did for everyone, unless i knew a bit more about their abilities and experience using and sharpening other knives though.


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## chefcomesback (May 28, 2016)

JBroida said:


> it really depends on each person... i probably wouldnt go as thin as i did for everyone, unless i knew a bit more about their abilities and experience using and sharpening other knives though.



Well said Jon , I have to mention that thinning job looked very good , I believe you spent more time grinding that knife compared to initial grind at the factory


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## aboynamedsuita (May 28, 2016)

JBroida said:


> it really depends on each person... i probably wouldnt go as thin as i did for everyone, unless i knew a bit more about their abilities and experience using and sharpening other knives though.



I'm comfortable with something thin :angel2:

Mine was still on the OOTB edge when I sent it and microchipping was caused mostly by me trying to scrape off the decarburization bits with a screw that slipped, also wanted to see if I could chip it with a fingernail


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 28, 2016)

I would definitely choose the last in the series of choil shots ... most likely to have the cut, split and release behaviour that I am exactly considering getting a Takeda at some point in time. And thinner than the one above it seems  If it comes with the caution of "use another knife to hack or to drop on concrete floors", then that is exactly what I would do.


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## aboynamedsuita (May 28, 2016)

tjangula said:


> You'd probably be best to talk to a custom handle maker if you want an upgrade. I found the stock handle on my 270 NAS gyuto too small. I think I wrote down the original specs prior to removing (there is epoxy, so destructive removal was required) so if I can find them I'll post


Okay so on my 270 NAS gyuto the handle was 18.2x23.8 @ferrule; 18.4x24.7 @end; 133mm long
By comparison, the size I like for a gyuto in the 240-270 range is 20x25 @ferrule; 23x28 @end; 145mm long


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## wphill (May 29, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I would definitely choose the last in the series of choil shots ... most likely to have the cut, split and release behaviour that I am exactly considering getting a Takeda at some point in time. And thinner than the one above it seems  If it comes with the caution of "use another knife to hack or to drop on concrete floors", then that is exactly what I would do.[/QUOTE
> 
> Well explained. I thought about your choice vs the thinner ones.
> 
> ...


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## JBroida (May 29, 2016)

nah... the food sticking is a function of cross-sectional geometry... not kurouchi


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## wphill (May 29, 2016)

JBroida said:


> nah... the food sticking is a function of cross-sectional geometry... not kurouchi


I need a tutorial.
Cross sectional geometry....meaning the convex shoulder, particularly on the right side of the blade for a rightie, that will push food away instead of letting it ride up?
When it comes to wet produce, like cucumbers or almost any veggie when minced, won't the KU reduce sticking. Though, I've kind of accepted that sticksion is a reality that I am not going to avoid.


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## MAS4T0 (May 29, 2016)

JBroida said:


> nah... the food sticking is a function of cross-sectional geometry... not kurouchi



But John, what about grantons?

Surely the problem is a lack of grantons? :justkidding:


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## aboynamedsuita (May 29, 2016)

I had a Takeda with grantons, it also had an extra kanji inscription. This was the messed up one I was referring to earlier (in this or another thread). I'll see if I can find the pic and upload hi-res with photobucket so someone who can read can translate the extra kanji.

EDIT

Here's a picture:


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## brainsausage (May 29, 2016)

tjangula said:


> I had a Takeda with grantons, it also had an extra kanji inscription. This was the messed up one I was referring to earlier (in this or another thread). I'll see if I can find the pic and upload hi-res with photobucket so someone who can read can translate the extra kanji.
> 
> EDIT
> 
> Here's a picture:



I'd forgotten how ugly that sucker was. Now I'll never forget...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 29, 2016)

I might have odd technique, but thin (spine AND back of edge thin) yet wedge and stick-proof geometries, IMHO, really are an advantage once you are doing fine-scale work that requires a bridge hold, or even guiding the blade between two fingers, on the ingredient.


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## wphill (May 29, 2016)

There IS a mystique to geometry...to me. Thin does not mean wedge proof. My take, anyway. Has to be the right something to push ingredients apart. The right technique helps,too.

In all an education.:doublethumbsup:

I'll wait to learn about grantons.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 29, 2016)

I think they are little suction cups holding the food in place, and add some course sawtooth action for very hard to cut foods. Also, they help randomly push slices out of dicing stacks by catching on their edges. They even help drawing fingertips into the slicing path by the same principle. If that doesn't work, they keep fingertips sensorically busy while cleaning or wiping ingredients off, so you don't even notice you are groping straight into the edge. Also, they allow making a thick knife that can still be handle-heavy. :biggrin:

Reason for all the sarcasm: had a few cheap knives with grantons, and I think they do not work well enough to be worth some of the disadvantages. Keep one around for applications where you find they work, not useful on a main knife.

I thought a Takeda with a course granton pattern, which has to be further developed by the sharpener, was made by... name escapes me, some brand with "M"?:biggrin:


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## wphill (May 29, 2016)

:eyebrow:


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## wphill (May 31, 2016)

The proof is in the pudding. I'll wait and see what I get. 
I don't have the history that you guys have with the Takeda knife
and, frankly, befuddled when I see the pictures of OOTB ones.
But, I'm taking him on face value that whatever has happened
in the past that he wants to please his customers. And, perhaps, I'm just
a goner for his rustic vision and other unique elements. No matter, it 
would be more encouraging to hear positive experiences when direct
ordering with the request to make what others generally regard as his old
style grind that was so well reviewed five or more years ago. Along the way,
as usual, I learn a lot from Jon's commentary.


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## DanHumphrey (May 31, 2016)

And I see how the old ones were regarded and how unique they look and I wonder if I should post a WTB for one, or buy and try thinning (but probably hurt the looks) or beg Jon to fix a new one. And so I run round and round in circles. If yours comes out well, that'll help.


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## daveb (May 31, 2016)

Hurt the looks on a Takeda?

They are many things but pretty is not one of them...:cool2:


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 31, 2016)

I thought NAS vs AS series were openly sold as having different geometries anyway?


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## DanHumphrey (May 31, 2016)

daveb said:


> Hurt the looks on a Takeda?
> 
> They are many things but pretty is not one of them...:cool2:



You know, call me crazy, but I like that "rough" look (I can't bear to say the other "R" word...). It would drive me nuts if the KU was lightened in some areas and removed in others and uneven all over.


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## rami_m (May 31, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> You know, call me crazy, but I like that "rough" look (I can't bear to say the other "R" word...). It would drive me nuts if the KU was lightened in some areas and removed in others and uneven all over.



Can't it be reapplied/ darkened?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 31, 2016)

Dunno, I think the NAS with the octagonal handle and a glossy dark KU finish do look fantastic in pictures at least


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## Pensacola Tiger (May 31, 2016)

rami_m said:


> Can't it be reapplied/ darkened?



The soft iron cladding of the classic Takedas can be blued. Dave Martell did it during spa treatment:


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## Godslayer (May 31, 2016)

What wizardry is this? Reminds me of my masakage mizu


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## aboynamedsuita (May 31, 2016)

I've heard that the KU is more difficult/impossible to restore on the NAS because it is stainless.


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## JBroida (May 31, 2016)

none of this is restoration of KU finishes... rather alternative methods of applying finishes (usually though oxidization) that look similar. Here's an example:


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## aboynamedsuita (May 31, 2016)

I stand corrected :surrendar:


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## panda (May 31, 2016)

how do you do the blueing process!!??


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## wphill (Jun 1, 2016)

Same mind set !!! 
I just had enough of an urge. Age helps. *** put me over. 
And, I'm hugely smart!:happymug:



DanHumphrey said:


> And I see how the old ones were regarded and how unique they look and I wonder if I should post a WTB for one, or buy and try thinning (but probably hurt the looks) or beg Jon to fix a new one. And so I run round and round in circles. If yours comes out well, that'll help.


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## wphill (Jun 1, 2016)

JBroida said:


> none of this is restoration of KU finishes... rather alternative methods of applying finishes (usually though oxidization) that look similar. Here's an example:



I'll take that look!
But, want





Is there a difference in function between the two?


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## toddnmd (Jun 1, 2016)

Regarding those alternative finishes, are they just applied on top of the KU? So that they fill in any spots where the original KU has deteriorated?


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 1, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> The soft iron cladding of the classic Takedas can be blued. Dave Martell did it during spa treatment:



To my earlier point about looks, please note that the thinning also wore into the inscriptions, especially the top four symbols and the A. That's something I'd like to avoid.


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## chinacats (Jun 1, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> To my earlier point about looks, please note that the thinning also wore into the inscriptions, especially the top four symbols and the A. That's something I'd like to avoid.



That's easy enough, just never thin your knife...:surrendar:


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## daveb (Jun 1, 2016)

I've never seen a Wusthoff with a scratched logo. They must do something different...


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 1, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> To my earlier point about looks, please note that the thinning also wore into the inscriptions, especially the top four symbols and the A. That's something I'd like to avoid.



I disagree. It wouldn't have the entire blade laid completly flat, you can see in the original that this kanji is also absent. Mine has the heart symbol slightly fainter towards the the cutting edge OOTB


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## JBroida (Jun 1, 2016)

wphill said:


> I'll take that look!
> But, want
> 
> 
> ...



in function, they are pretty similar... both finishes help prevent rust and corrosion in that area, and both can be scratched off with abrasive.


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## JBroida (Jun 1, 2016)

toddnmd said:


> Regarding those alternative finishes, are they just applied on top of the KU? So that they fill in any spots where the original KU has deteriorated?



I actually have to remove the KU finish to be able to refinish well... otherwise, it looks bad.


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 1, 2016)

tjangula said:


> I disagree. It wouldn't have the entire blade laid completly flat, you can see in the original that this kanji is also absent. Mine has the heart symbol slightly fainter towards the the cutting edge OOTB



Hmm, ok.

Regardless, these have sorta plunged to the bottom of my list, below Blenheim and Shi-Han and Dalman and Raquin. They are pretty, and I'm sure they cut nice when thin enough, but they give me too many things to worry about.


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## Casaluz (Jun 2, 2016)

JBroida said:


> i think people forget that there is no single ideal grind... they all have pros and cons. Not everyone will be ok with the super thin ground ones... they move through food well, but are brittle and require great finesse in use. The thicker ones have much better toughness and food release. Its important to be introspective and take a good look at where your skills lie (in use, sharpening, maintenance, etc.), and also what is important to you in terms of knife performance. You may want the thinnest grind, but may not be capable of using it without chipping it. You may want better food release, but get frustrated when it wedges. You may want it to move through food more easily, but be frustrated with foods stick to the sides. There's always a tradeoff, and its important to be smart about taking time to understand the limits of your abilities relative to what you want.



I would like to retake Jon's comments earlier and add a few positive thoughts on the side of both working with SHosui and with his knives in general, knowing that I am probably part of a small minority and that I am years behind in knowledge and experience from most of you. I have owned three Takedas, a Deba, a Sasanoha gyuto, and a Petty; the last two ordered directly to him with especific requirements. My experience with him has ben superb. He answers within 36 hours to my emails and has been very accommodating. I like the F&F of his knives, the handles, the kurouchi finish, the grind, the edge retention, the feel and balance. I find his knives attractive and substantial in my hand, and I like the long flat profiles that fit the way I use the knives. I liked the first two very much but ended selling them for different reasons not related to how much I liked them. The third one was ordered recently with the request to please make me a longer 170 mm petty that could be a hybrid between a taller than normal petty and a short gyuto. I followed almost verbatim the Jon's comments: I was not looking for a super thin grind; for that I use my Masamoto KS petty or my Carters. I needed a thicker one with much better toughness and food release and Takeda's specific grind fits my need for something versatile that accommodates to my many skills limitations. ANd I do really like the way the Takeda kurouchi looks and the fact that it is stainless wrapping the aogami super core. 
Shosui understood what I was looking for and instead of sending me something from his stock he added my order to his work schedule. A month and half later he sent me notification that the order was on its way. I received it four days later. I am very happy with it. It is exactly what I needed and what I was hoping for. I am very pleased that he accommodated to my request and the knife he made is absolutely wonderful _for me_. here are some pictures of it (instead of using the new knife thread):


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## MAS4T0 (Jun 2, 2016)

That looks very much like a low santoku.

I'm glad you had a good experience, thanks for sharing.


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## wphill (Jun 2, 2016)

lus1:
Casaluz....you have some fine knives and that, I imagine, serves you well for knowing what you want. In the absence of a Takeda in hand, one thin and one relatively more robust, I'm reminded that I'm shooting in the dark. Jon's quote is packed with good sense. And, Shosui, indeed, has responded to all communication within one day. Word is that he will be at the Atlanta blade show this weekend. What a treat it would be to meet him and his artful tools. Six weeks turnaround time and a heads up of shipping, and best is that you like the results...all good. Thanks for the post. Now, I will worry more about getting what I wished for...


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## wphill (Jun 20, 2016)

Just heard from Shosui...knife is on its way. About three weeks from order to shipping.
My expectations are on hold.


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## Casaluz (Jun 20, 2016)

I would like to hear what you think when you receive it


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## wphill (Jun 20, 2016)

Turn around time sooner than I thought. Despite all the commotion, Shosui has a lot of passionate fans. 
One would never know that there was or has been a rift. For me, this is as high end that I will ever get. My closest comparison will be a Shibata r2 steel bunka...perhaps as good of a cutter or better. While no bling far from the rustic appearance of a Takeda.


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