# Starting J-nats



## Midsummer (Jul 10, 2018)

Like the title says. I would like to begin dabbling in j-nats. I am happy with the sharpness I can obtain. I use Shapton glass, diamond plates from Jon at JKI and DMT for heavy work.

I would like to learn how to better finish. I have been looking at the J-nats and would really like to give them a try. I have seen some beautiful finishes done with them. I just do not know where to start.

I have been around long enough to know this is not so simple; that it is a “deep rabbit hole”.But, any help or suggestions are welcomed.


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## Badgertooth (Jul 10, 2018)

Oouchi from JKI


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## Midsummer (Jul 10, 2018)

I have one on order now. Thanks!


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## Grunt173 (Jul 11, 2018)

Dang! That was quick. I was hoping to read more suggestions.lol


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## Badgertooth (Jul 11, 2018)

Well, let’s not consider the thread closed. There are plenty of places to start but in terms of bang for buck and ease of use, the Oouchi takes some beating.

I always beat the drum for Aizu as it’s such a useful all rounder.

Soft aiiwatani is also a good place to start if you can get the koppas for a decent price. Hideriyama is getting harder to find but also fits that nice easy to use bill


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## Grunt173 (Jul 11, 2018)

Badgertooth said:


> Well, let’s not consider the thread closed. There are plenty of places to start but in terms of bang for buck and ease of use, the Oouchi takes some beating.
> 
> I always beat the drum for Aizu as it’s such a useful all rounder.
> 
> Soft aiiwatani is also a good place to start if you can get the koppas for a decent price. Hideriyama is getting harder to find but also fits that nice easy to use bill


I was looking at either the Oouchi or Hideriyama but in reading,they sound very similar. I agree on the Aizu after using mine.I recently bought an Aono Aoto . So far I have only had a chance to use it once but already I can tell that I am really going to enjoy this stone,so much so,that I am wondering what my next move might be for another Jnat in a logical direction.


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## krx927 (Jul 11, 2018)

When I posted this question on KKF everybody was proposing a nice Takashima.

It was quite hard to find but I did start with it. It was everything people were describing, nice soft with tons of feedback.

Aizu is way to coarse for finisher, at least mine.


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## Grunt173 (Jul 11, 2018)

krx927 said:


> When I posted this question on KKF everybody was proposing a nice Takashima.
> 
> It was quite hard to find but I did start with it. It was everything people were describing, nice soft with tons of feedback.
> 
> Aizu is way to coarse for finisher, at least mine.


I was told to get a Takashima but I was to long in thinking about it and the only one available,suddenly became unavailable. I don't mind finishing with my Aizu.It gives me an edge with a good amount of bite ,which I like.


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## ThinMan (Jul 11, 2018)

Badgertooth said:


> Oouchi from JKI



I was going back and forth between the Oouchi and Hideriyama and went with the Hideriyama.

Why the Oouchi?


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## YG420 (Jul 11, 2018)

Yea its hard to beat aizu for a good working edge. I like to make a little slurry with an atoma 1200 first to help it along


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## tgfencer (Jul 11, 2018)

Grunt173 said:


> I was told to get a Takashima but I was to long in thinking about it and the only one available,suddenly became unavailable. I don't mind finishing with my Aizu.It gives me an edge with a good amount of bite ,which I like.



Takashima are harder to find these days, and as is the case with jnats (and most things), the harder to find the more expensive they become. As such, I wouldn't recommend takashima as a beginner stone because the price of entry is too high when you consider the cost of other stones that are just as easy to use and more readily available.

Aizu, hideriyama, soft aiiwatani, are also good for beginners as Otto mentioned. I would also throw in soft awasedo/tomae such as can be found from ohira, atagoyama, and shobudani. If one can forgive my generalization, softer stones are easier to use than harder stones. The slurry and mud builds up quicker and is usually relatively thick, which tends to ease polishing. Also, they are more forgiving of errors in sharpening or polishing technique.

If you want to test and try things out before diving deeper (and spending more), inexpensive soft stones (such as those mentioned by folks already) or koppas are a good way to begin your journey. If you are the type who just wants to have one or two quality natural stones and call it quits without going "full rabbit hole", its probably worth talking to a specialist vendor or knowledgeable, highly-stoned forum member to locate what you want.


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## Grunt173 (Jul 11, 2018)

tgfencer said:


> Takashima are harder to find these days, and as is the case with jnats (and most things), the harder to find the more expensive they become. As such, I wouldn't recommend takashima as a beginner stone because the price of entry is too high when you consider the cost of other stones that are just as easy to use and more readily available.
> 
> Aizu, hideriyama, soft aiiwatani, are also good for beginners as Otto mentioned. I would also throw in soft awasedo/tomae such as can be found from ohira, atagoyama, and shobudani. If one can forgive my generalization, softer stones are easier to use than harder stones. The slurry and mud builds up quicker and is usually relatively thick, which tends to ease polishing. Also, they are more forgiving of errors in sharpening or polishing technique.
> 
> If you want to test and try things out before diving deeper (and spending more), inexpensive soft stones (such as those mentioned by folks already) or koppas are a good way to begin your journey. If you are the type who just wants to have one or two quality natural stones and call it quits without going "full rabbit hole", its probably worth talking to a specialist vendor or knowledgeable, highly-stoned forum member to locate what you want.


This is solid advice.Thanks.


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## krx927 (Jul 11, 2018)

tgfencer said:


> Takashima are harder to find these days, and as is the case with jnats (and most things), the harder to find the more expensive they become. As such, I wouldn't recommend takashima as a beginner stone because the price of entry is too high when you consider the cost of other stones that are just as easy to use and more readily available.
> 
> ....
> If you want to test and try things out before diving deeper (and spending more), inexpensive soft stones (such as those mentioned by folks already) or koppas are a good way to begin your journey. If you are the type who just wants to have one or two quality natural stones and call it quits without going "full rabbit hole", its probably worth talking to a specialist vendor or knowledgeable, highly-stoned forum member to locate what you want.



This is not necessary the best route to take. If you are a bit serious in knives (and talking about Jnats you are) and sharpening you will spend the money on this "half" items and at the end you will not be happy. Small stones or not really good stones are not useful. You can of course try more of them and you will get lucky but this costs. Better buy immediately full size stones. 2 good Jnats are all you need beside your 1000 grit.


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## tgfencer (Jul 11, 2018)

krx927 said:


> This is not necessary the best route to take. If you are a bit serious in knives (and talking about Jnats you are) and sharpening you will spend the money on this "half" items and at the end you will not be happy. Small stones or not really good stones are not useful. You can of course try more of them and you will get lucky but this costs. Better buy immediately full size stones. 2 good Jnats are all you need beside your 1000 grit.



Actually, I agree with this. It's hard to summarize these topics efficiently as everyone's circumstances and expectation are different, but Krx touched upon something I missed. Koppas are useful if you are very unsure or hesitant to try jnats- or a certain type of jnat- but they will probably not satisfy a serious sharpener. Personally, I don't think they are worth it if they any more than $75 or so. I bought one once for $50 years ago to try a very hard type of suita and see if they were my speed, and then sold it on and looked for a full-size stone once I realized I could utilize them effectively. Going full size and cheaper is better than going koppa for beginners (again in my opinion), unless you really can't afford or find what you are looking for.

Alternatively, if you live near any forum members with jnats, it would be worth trying to arrange a get-together. Food and beer can buy a session of testing with the most folks!


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## K813zra (Jul 11, 2018)

I don't agree that smaller stones are not useful. A lot of my stones are smaller than your average bench stone. I am not saying to go out and buy a 4x1 stone but you can go a little under size without issue. A lot of my stones are around 7-7.5x2.5 or so and they were, much, much, much cheaper than a similar stone in the 8x3 range. Sometimes hundreds of dollars cheaper.

Idk about others but I can comfortably sharpen an over sized 240 on a 6x2 stone but that is pushing it. That said, I am more of a scrubber than a single stroke sharpener. For clarity I do agree that larger stones are nicer where you can find and afford them.

As for Takashima, affordable ones are out there from time to time and koppa does not have to mean tiny weird shaped stone or at least not from the vendors I use. Some koppa are oddly shapen but huge or are normal size and normalize shape but thin, thin, thin. Then you have narrow stones that are long or wide stones that are short etc. Maybe these should be labeled as something else though, idk. I just use and collect them.  The later, for me, works well for polishing the blade road.

Anyway, my favorite Takashima (lv 2-2.5) @ 7.5x2.25 cost me $163 about a year ago. I have paid more for less in terms of performance more than once too. A great stone that gets on well with my KS at 250+mm.

That said, the Oouchi that Jon has are fine finishers too. I don't like them, in general, as much as the Takashima I have used but they are still nice finishing stones at a nice price. In the lower cost range I still like a Yaginoshima Asagi around Lv 3-3.5 (JNS) or a nice Ohira Asagi around the same hardness, which have typically proven to me to be faster and more aggressive stones. There are so many good choices out there that won't break the bank. Giving up a wee bit of size, while a personal preference, will net you a stone much cheaper. But again, I'd not suggest a pocket size stone.

Long week, not enough sleep and surely not enough coffee. I hope I didn't ramble too much and realize that is based on my experience with a small sample size of each the stones I mentioned (normally 3-4 of each) and things are not near as consistent as with naturals. Rather, it is what it is. (Yeah, I put a disclaimer in my post--lol.)


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## tgfencer (Jul 11, 2018)

K813zra said:


> I don't agree that smaller stones are not useful. A lot of my stones are smaller than your average bench stone. I am not saying to go out and buy a 4x1 stone but you can go a little under size without issue. A lot of my stones are around 7-7.5x2.5 or so and they were, much, much, much cheaper than a similar stone in the 8x3 range. Sometimes hundreds of dollars cheaper.
> 
> Giving up a wee bit of size, while a personal preference, will net you a stone much cheaper. But again, I'd not suggest a pocket size stone.
> 
> Long week, not enough sleep and surely not enough coffee. I hope I didn't ramble too much and realize that is based on my experience with a small sample size of each the stones I mentioned (normally 3-4 of each) and things are not near as consistent as with naturals. Rather, it is what it is. (Yeah, I put a disclaimer in my post--lol.)




Haha, well put K813ra. As this demonstrates, there are as many opinions on jnats as there are people who use them. There is no wrong or right way to approach it. Discovering your preferences and likes/dislikes is part of the ride. 

Also can we just take a moment to appreciate the censorship in my previous post of circumstances....


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## K813zra (Jul 11, 2018)

tgfencer said:


> Haha, well put K813ra. As this demonstrates, there are as many opinions on jnats as there are people who use them. There is no wrong or right way to approach it. Discovering your preferences and likes/dislikes is part of the ride.
> 
> Also can we just take a moment to appreciate the censorship in my previous post of cir***stances....



Yes, and I certainly would not profess that my way is "right", but it works for me at the moment. When it doesn't, I'll change it.  I hope it is the same for others but I am always learning from the ladies and gents here. 

Hah--that is funny.


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## daveb (Jul 11, 2018)

Badgertooth said:


> I always beat the drum for Aizu as it’s such a useful all rounder.



Question on my Aizu and this seems as good a place as any to ask. I picked up one from a member here and can't find a place for it where it adds to the sharpening process. I typically would use it after the Ikarashi (sp?) or coming off a 1K synthetic. Would like to use it to finish gyuto or preface a finishing stone. But I don't feel it's adding any value to the process. Note that I'm looking at finishing the edge but not making the beautiful polished blend of steels that some of you guys favor. Any thots?


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## tgfencer (Jul 11, 2018)

daveb said:


> Question on my Aizu and this seems as good a place as any to ask. I picked up one from a member here and can't find a place for it where it adds to the sharpening process. I typically would use it after the Ikarashi (sp?) or coming off a 1K synthetic. Would like to use it to finish gyuto or preface a finishing stone. But I don't feel it's adding any value to the process. Note that I'm looking at finishing the edge but not making the beautiful polished blend of steels that some of you guys favor. Any thots?



Hmm, I'm puzzled by that Dave, as your usage seems to be similar to mine, except that I really like the edges from my aizu. I too use my Aizu as an edge finisher, not a polisher as it doesn't give me much in that regard. I tend to use it after some combination of: King 800, King 1200, Gesshin 1200, Gesshin 2000, or occasionally, after my red aoto. My example is harder and finer than many aizu, so maybe there is some difference in performance to be found there between yours and mine. 

Maybe Otto or other aizu enthusiasts can help more.


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## Grunt173 (Jul 11, 2018)

Well,I am surely not much help because I just got into Jnats just recently but do have some time with my Aizu. I have way more time on my synthetics.However,I do find that after coming off of say my King 800 or SP 2k,I finish with the Aizu for that perfect edge that I like for my kitchen work.Of course,I am still experimenting with it and maybe trying different stones before it or maybe a different strop after it but at any rate,I am quite happy with it as a finisher.I did just pick up an Aono Aoto to play with but have only used it once so far( to busy playing in the garden),but I have enjoyed what time I spent with it.I just have to figure out where it comes in in relationship to an Aoto in use or if at all.Now when I say I use it as a finisher,I am speaking of the edge quality and not the pretty.


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## valgard (Jul 11, 2018)

On the aizus, I have had a bit of a range in both hardness and grit (not always correlated) but only one or two were too coarse for me to finish the edge on (both hard actually). I like finishing my stainless knives on aizu after 1k, when I finish carbon (think Watanabe) on Aizu I normally go higher in grit and then down to aizu for that bite, or 1k>aizu>strop on a suita. Really puzzled by the fact you don’t get much out of it, I have passed along a few aizu and most ppl feel it’s a game changer.


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## valgard (Jul 11, 2018)

as fo stones for beginners it’s been all said,for me it summarizes as any soft finisher (lvl2.5-3) regardless of mine. Some of the iconic cheaper soft finishers have been mentioned already. Some of the best beginner stones I have tried myself are Hideriyama.


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## aaamax (Jul 11, 2018)

tgfencer said:


> there are as many opinions on jnats as there are people who use them. There is no wrong or right way to approach it. Discovering your preferences and likes/dislikes is part of the ride.




the whole thing with Jnats is almost bizarre. As stated above, it is so true.
It is almost like beer, we all have are preferences, but one would think that something as definable as a keen or sharp edge would be more quantifiable than just merely based on "taste". but such it is as long as the end result is similar.
I used a Oouchi a few times that a friend owned. I likened it to a bizarro/altered universe, Ohira Suita. it looked like one and sort of gave the same results, but felt completely different , hence the "altered universe" description. well, in all fairness, I have almost a reverential relationship with good Ohira Suitas and all else kind of lacks the same "magic" I experience with theses stones. so my views are way too biased... 
good luck.


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## Xenif (Jul 11, 2018)

I just dropped down the Jnat rabbit hole as well; I followed the "koppa route" because I really wanted to try more variety of stones. In the last 3 months I've gathered a small assortment of them and had just epoxy them on to thick wood blocks so they are easier to use, I find personally width matters a lot more than length.
I finally got my Ohira Suita a week ago, and now I finally understand why everyone seem to love them so darn much.
My favorite stone so far is .... Namito .... People dont talk about it very much, but mine seem to do a bit of everything, the feeling got me addicted to sharpening.


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## PalmRoyale (Jul 11, 2018)

Xenif said:


> I finally got my Ohira Suita a week ago, and now I finally understand why everyone seem to love them so darn much.



I found this little guy to be very useful for suitas.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TSUBOMAN-A...m=192578564001&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850
It's large enough to flatten smaller stones and it makes a great slurry plate. Lightly wet your Ohira, create some creamy slurry and it will take it to another level.


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## Xenif (Jul 11, 2018)

PalmRoyale said:


> I found this little guy to be very useful for suitas.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/TSUBOMAN-A...m=192578564001&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850
> It's large enough to flatten smaller stones and it makes a great slurry plate. Lightly wet your Ohira, create some creamy slurry and it will take it to another level.


Absolutely! I have the fullsize 400 works like a charm


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## Badgertooth (Jul 11, 2018)

Hi Dave, i typically use it for edge work more than polishing. Where I think it adds value is that I generally haven’t found a 4 - 5k synth I like and the Aizu plugs that gap for me. I’ve had some thoughts on it and I think part of its magic is the aggression with which it deburrs an edge. And that’s not to say it’s a fast or aggressive stone but it’s just excellent at deburring lower grit wires. Also, pound-for-pound i find I can’t replicate the level of tooth and bite it leaves on any other stone. If you’re using it more as a strop, expect that edge and aggression to be more dialled up and settled near the 4K mark. If you’re kicking up atoma slurry and working it with scrubbing motions, expect it more refined at 5k +


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## Badgertooth (Jul 11, 2018)

valgard said:


> I have passed along a few aizu and most ppl feel it’s a game changer.



[emoji121]️


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## PalmRoyale (Jul 11, 2018)

I've played around with an Aizu but I didn't find it to be all that special. I have an exceptionally fine Aoto that I find superior.


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## Badgertooth (Jul 11, 2018)

PalmRoyale said:


> I found this little guy to be very useful for suitas.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/TSUBOMAN-A...m=192578564001&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850
> It's large enough to flatten smaller stones and it makes a great slurry plate. Lightly wet your Ohira, create some creamy slurry and it will take it to another level.



Good point. A good atoma is indispensable in natural stone use. It really should be one of your first purchases.


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## valgard (Jul 11, 2018)

Badgertooth said:


> it’s just excellent at deburring lower grit wires. Also, pound-for-pound i find I can’t replicate the level of tooth and bite it leaves



This!


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## nevrknow (Jul 11, 2018)

Get an aizu from Badgertooth. ( Bows low). Lol


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## krx927 (Jul 12, 2018)

nevrknow said:


> Get an aizu from Badgertooth. ( Bows low). Lol



No, don't do this. Mine was around 1000 girt, completely useless.


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## K813zra (Jul 12, 2018)

Seems there are mixed feelings about the Aizu. I have four of them, and as I have said in reviews in the past, they are fairly inconsistent in terms of edge refinement from one stone to the next. The whiter stones seem to be different from the green ones and then those that have loads of brown/gold mixed with loads of renge(?) seem to be different still. However, none of mine have been in the 1k range that I can recall.

My softest is probably probably around HS 20 or so (unmarked) and it is chalky in use, cuts fast, leaves the bite from a 1k stone but the refinement of a 3k stone. I think that is here everyone gets hung up and why people try not to put grit ratings on naturals. That edge can be interpreted differently from person to person. 

My next hardest (2) are almost identical and are both marked at HS24. These still feel chalky but harder yet cut faster with their loads of black renge(?). Finish on the edge on these is clearly more refined. Still a bite level like a lower grit synthetic, maybe the 1200-1500 rage but the edge feels to perform beyond that, maybe somewhere in the 3-4k range.

The hardest stone is different. It does not cut near as fast and is noticeably finer. Still loads of bite for its refinement level but probably somewhere closer to a 2k in terms of bite and a 4-5k in terms of edge refinement, feel. 

Now, all of these seem to bite into my nail closer to mid grit 1-2k stone but you can feel the tactile difference through food of finer or coarser finishes. This is particularly noticeable when doing something like peeling potatoes on the board with a gyuto. You can feel one bite and resist the tough potato skin but melt through the flesh. However, the harder stone leaves an edge that kind of slips through the skin with little resistance but it is still there. In stark contrast to my Yaginoshima suita, which is probably closer to something in the 8-10k range. You get no tactile feedback of any kind when going through the potatoes skin, it is as if there is no skin to begin with. Like a hot knife through butter or slicing through air etc. 

That is simply one example and my take on things. As for where to put the stone in a rotation as compared to an Ikarashi, for me that is hard. Why, because I find these stones to be fairly similar. Most of my Ikarashi have been harder yet coarser than my Aizu but not by much. Say my finest Aizu is 3-5k then the finest Ikarashi is 2-4k. But the thing is, practically speaking, the two finish so closely that I would not use both in a progression. Now, my softest Ikarashi was closer to the 1500-2000 mark but even that is about in line with my softest Aizu...I know, I know, we are not talking about running them together but I am trying to get my point across. 

Simply put, I agree with Otto, as per usual. I would use it in the 3-5k range to replace a synthetic. Me, I don't normally mix synthetic and natural stones after 1k. I either switch to naturals or stick with synthetic stones. Or I opt to run all synthetic and switch to a natural to finish--sometimes I even step backward from a 6-8k to an Aizu or aoto. Anyway, I find my finer Naka-to to be a good replacement for something like a Rika 5k. 

Natural stones, an addiction and a curse, I tell you.  Now I am going to sharpen, have fun.


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## Xenif (Jul 12, 2018)

Argh .... All this talk of Aizu now I must have one [emoji14]


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## Migraine (Jul 12, 2018)

Man this is definitely gonna be the next rabbit hole.


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## Grunt173 (Jul 12, 2018)

Migraine said:


> Man this is definitely gonna be the next rabbit hole.


Yes it will.


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## YG420 (Jul 12, 2018)

Ugh i hate ikarashis


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## Xenif (Jul 12, 2018)

Migraine said:


> Man this is definitely gonna be the next rabbit hole.


By coming here you are destined to fall down the hole with the rest of us [emoji195]


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## PalmRoyale (Jul 12, 2018)

You can say that again. I thought I was complete done with naturals for my chisels and now I have an Ohira suita again


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## jaknil (Jul 12, 2018)

When you concider going natural, JNAT is not the only way:
The Khao men is a natural stone, but from Thailand.
It is smooth and nice.
You can get a full size for a fracture af the price af a good JNAT.

I have aproximately 30 naturals.
27 of these are JNATS.
3 are from Aranyik in Thailand.
They are not inferior to the JNAT´s, but the price of these are much lower.

The star of these is Khao men, but I also got 2 binsui´s I also like.
You can read much more in this thread:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/khao-men.27606/


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## Migraine (Jul 12, 2018)

jaknil said:


> When you concider going natural, JNAT is not the only way:
> The Khao men is a natural stone, but from Thailand.
> It is smooth and nice.
> You can get a full size for a fracture af the price af a good JNAT.
> ...



Following that thread it seems 'Aranyik.com' is the site to buy these from, but if you try to access the site it just says 'closed due to a death in the family'


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## vinster (Jul 12, 2018)

OP asked talked about finishes so it's worth mentioning that softer/muddier stones tend to be easier for beginners to leave an even polish on a knife bevel. If you just care about the end finish for less cost, then I might just get sandpaper and fingerstones and call it a day. Takes some elbow grease but doing a shigefusa type polish often does.

It's interesting to see the progression of the "soft" "beginner" stones over time. A few years back Hakka stones were the best, then they got really hard to find and then people found Takashima and then Hideriyama. Now Oochi seems to be a reasonable choice. They tend to be mostly soft stones so it's easier to procure. There are great softer stones from nearly every mine but it may take a bit more work. I've played with some ohira suita as well as tomae-ish stones from shobu, narautaki,, nakayama and okudo that are soft....

I got started down the rabbit hole due in part to nostalgia - the idea that this rock has been in the ground for millions of years and the Japanese have been using them for centuries to sharpen their blades makes it really cool.

There are lots of dimensions on which to evaluate stones spanning performance (grit, hardness, cutting speed, clean-ness), appearance (color, size, completeness of shape), and budget. You'll have to figure out how to prioritize what's important to you.

Then again, if you're just sharpening the edge, Aizu tends to be a good one to start with. Previous posts suggested Oochi or Aizu to start, but bear in mind they are completely different performing and feeling stones.


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## YG420 (Jul 12, 2018)

A good, clean aoto leaves an awesome edge as well. Kinda wish i had my old one back


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## valgard (Jul 12, 2018)

vinster said:


> If you just care about the end finish for less cost, then I might just get sandpaper and fingerstones and call it a day. Takes some elbow grease but doing a shigefusa type polish often does.



True, but bench stones are WAAAAAAY more fun. And I know you will agree.


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## childermass (Jul 14, 2018)

Migraine said:


> Following that thread it seems 'Aranyik.com' is the site to buy these from, but if you try to access the site it just says 'closed due to a death in the family'



Normaly it‘s easier to access Miles thru the Aranyik Facebook profile. He is very helpful and pretty good at selling stuff, so beware!

But yes, someone of the family seems to have passed away.


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