# The worst of the worst western handles...who makes them?



## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

I submit Teruyasu Fujiwara Denka as King of the worst followed closely by Shigefusa for 2nd place. 

Honorable mention goes to Takamura Uchigumo 



Who else? :wink:


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 17, 2018)

Aww thats mean and I beg to differ, the TF Nashiji Yo is far worse. To me the Denka has character LOL


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## Keith Sinclair (Mar 17, 2018)

Ken Onion chef knives. Don't get me wrong I have one of his folders that is one of my favorites, but his chef knives suck.


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## StonedEdge (Mar 17, 2018)

Tojiro DP hands down


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## chinacats (Mar 17, 2018)

Only western handles I've enjoyed were made by western makers.


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## Nemo (Mar 17, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> Tojiro DP hands down


Toj HSPS was pretty ordinary too.


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## bkultra (Mar 17, 2018)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Ken Onion chef knives. Don't get me wrong I have one of his folders that is one of my favorites, but his chef knives suck.



It's more than the handle that sucks with the KO kitchen knives. I saw a recent IG post showing a new "prototype" with a claimed HRC of 73. I'm might buy one just to send to Dave for sharpening :devilburn:


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## gic (Mar 17, 2018)

I don't think my shig western handle is that bad....


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## Godslayer (Mar 17, 2018)

Terayusa fujiwara nashiji is one of the worst, it isnt even sanded down, its infinity worse than the denka or takamura who atleast provide a functional handle, a lot of chinese cleavers also come with really crappy westren handles, like the type where he went to his back yard, grabbed some scrap lumber and quickly shaped it and maybe put some oil on it.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 17, 2018)

I will say the TF Denka handle is definitely contoured for the smaller hand.


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## hmansion (Mar 17, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> Tojiro DP hands down


My first Jknife was a Tojiro DP, so the brand is sentimental to me. Nevertheless, this is kind of true 

Hattori makes a superlative western handle, but thats not what were here to talk about...


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## NO ChoP! (Mar 17, 2018)

Dojo. But, you get what you pay for, I guess.


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## brooksie967 (Mar 17, 2018)

These are runner up for second worst yo-handle? 







I must be missing something.


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## brooksie967 (Mar 17, 2018)

Just horrid work?


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## Godslayer (Mar 17, 2018)

brooksie967 said:


> These are runner up for second worst yo-handle?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think he's referring to under the wood, maybe the are a b to rehandle, I wouldn't be shocked if under the wood it wasn't super nicely polished similar to what most westren makers are going to make. Also that koa one is sick


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## Panamapeet (Mar 17, 2018)

Godslayer said:


> I think he's referring to under the wood, maybe the are a b to rehandle, I wouldn't be shocked if under the wood it wasn't super nicely polished similar to what most westren makers are going to make. Also that koa one is sick



Maybe I'm just too stupid to understand... but why would it need to be 'super nicely polished' under the wood?


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## brooksie967 (Mar 17, 2018)

Godslayer said:


> I think he's referring to under the wood, maybe the are a b to rehandle, I wouldn't be shocked if under the wood it wasn't super nicely polished similar to what most westren makers are going to make. Also that koa one is sick



I would have never come to that conclusion by reading his post.


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## brooksie967 (Mar 17, 2018)

Spipet said:


> Maybe I'm just too stupid to understand... but why would it need to be 'super nicely polished' under the wood?



I suppose i'm a dumb-dumb too !


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## HRC_64 (Mar 17, 2018)

if you're thinking (too much) 
about the handle on your knife, 
you're buying the knife 
by the wrong end.


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## brooksie967 (Mar 17, 2018)

If those are bad i guess my Ashi handles are the shits too.


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## aboynamedsuita (Mar 17, 2018)

I recently rehandled my 480mm Sakai Takayuki castella knife the original handle was boxy and uncomfortable with tang gaps, but I used a Dremel cutoff to make hidden tang then put a wa handle on I'd not want to try to do a western handle with the limited resources I have

The ruler in the picture is 6" long








PS 
@brooksie967 pls send me those Ashi for safe disposal I'll even settle for the discoloured one, looks like it might have heat damage on the blade too


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## aboynamedsuita (Mar 17, 2018)

And yes that is a hello kitty blade guard lol


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## parbaked (Mar 17, 2018)

Worst western handles...that would be me unfortunately...


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## hmansion (Mar 17, 2018)

aboynamedsuita said:


> I recently rehandled my 480mm Sakai Takayuki castella knife the original handle was boxy and uncomfortable, but I used a Dremel cutoff to make hidden tang then put a wa handle on I'd not want to try to do a western handle with the limited resources I have
> 
> The ruler in the picture is 6" long
> View attachment 38888
> ...



The original handle looked pretty bad. You did a great job on the rehandle - really revitalized the look of the knife.


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## aboynamedsuita (Mar 17, 2018)

hmansion said:


> The original handle looked pretty bad. You did a great job on the rehandle - really revitalized the look of the knife.



It is in the realm of what I presume the tojiro itk bread knife was like tang gaps, etc. I realize that with a wa conversion the knife may not qualify anymore but the ootb handle wasn't nice so I thought to mention


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

Those of you who like Shigefusa westerns must have low expectations for fit 'n finish with high tolerance for wabi-sabi.  

Seriously though, they're rough, poorly fitted, exposed sharp edges at the tang/bolster/rivets, with wood so unstable the scales move more than a willow tree in a hurricane. They're some of the most requested knives to rehandle. I suspect if it wasn't for their low numbers in westerns, as well as Fujiwara taking the lead, that they'd be #1.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

Tojiro - how did I forget them?


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

bkultra said:


> It's more than the handle that sucks with the KO kitchen knives. I saw a recent IG post showing a new "prototype" with a claimed HRC of 73. I'm might buy one just to send to Dave for sharpening :devilburn:




I used to like you. :bat:


PS - Rc73? :bashhead:


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

aboynamedsuita said:


> I recently rehandled my 480mm Sakai Takayuki castella knife the original handle was boxy and uncomfortable with tang gaps, but I used a Dremel cutoff to make hidden tang then put a wa handle on I'd not want to try to do a western handle with the limited resources I have
> 
> The ruler in the picture is 6" long
> View attachment 38888
> ...




Nice work T! :doublethumbsup:


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## gic (Mar 17, 2018)

Hmm mine is jointly marketed by kiya, I wonder if they insist on better f&f


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## bkultra (Mar 17, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> I used to like you. :bat:
> 
> 
> PS - Rc73? :bashhead:



They are sold under the brand Apogee now. Steel is Maxemet with a 73 Rockwell


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

bkultra said:


> They are sold under the brand Apogee now. Steel is Maxemet with a 73 Rockwell




I just googled them....they should be called Apology


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## swarth (Mar 17, 2018)

Is this a troll? Or marketing?


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## Gregmega (Mar 17, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Those of you who like Shigefusa westerns must have low expectations for fit 'n finish with high tolerance for wabi-sabi.
> 
> Seriously though, they're rough, poorly fitted, exposed sharp edges at the tang/bolster/rivets, with wood so unstable the scales move more than a willow tree in a hurricane. They're some of the most requested knives to rehandle. I suspect if it wasn't for their low numbers in westerns, as well as Fujiwara taking the lead, that they'd be #1.



That's not nearly close to my experience. I think everyone is aware that the first rounds of westerns were fitted with un-stabilized wood, so shrinkage would happen for sure. A 5-10 year old knife with (thinner than most) un-stabilized scales... yes, I'd have it re-handled as well. I sure as heck wouldn't call them 'wabi-sabi'. By a long shot. 

I only have a few shigs, so I don't count myself as a Shig apologist, but... 'more than a willow tree in a hurricane'? I think that's a little dramatic. This sounds more like a Shig-bait thread to me than anything else. 

J- truly horrible collection of terrible wabi-sabi shigs ya got there. Good for you I have lower expectations than you, so I'd be happy to throw them in the trash for you, after I inspect them for their lousy handles first, of course.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

swarth said:


> Is this a troll? Or marketing?




From me?


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

Gregmega said:


> That's not nearly close to my experience. I think everyone is aware that the first rounds of westerns were fitted with un-stabilized wood, so shrinkage would happen for sure. A 5-10 year old knife with (thinner than most) un-stabilized scales... yes, I'd have it re-handled as well. I sure as heck wouldn't call them 'wabi-sabi'. By a long shot.
> 
> I only have a few shigs, so I don't count myself as a Shig apologist, but... 'more than a willow tree in a hurricane'? I think that's a little dramatic. This sounds more like a Shig-bait thread to me than anything else.
> 
> J- truly horrible collection of terrible wabi-sabi shigs ya got there. Good for you I have lower expectations than you, so I'd be happy to throw them in the trash for you, after I inspect them for their lousy handles first, of course.




Greg, there's no reason to get upset here. I'm just stating what I've seen is all. I see thousands of Japanese knives a year (and I've been at this since 2004) and beyond that I get emails asking for quotes that often have attached pictures with explanations of problems. Like I said I'm just stating what I see. If you've got good fit 'n finished Shigs then that's awesome, and I thank you for weighing in here, but I ask that you don't get mad at me for stating what I (too) know to be true.


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## brooksie967 (Mar 17, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Greg, there's no reason to get upset here. I'm just stating what I've seen is all. I see thousands of Japanese knives a year (and I've been at this since 2004) and beyond that I get emails asking for quotes that often have attached pictures with explanations of problems. Like I said I'm just stating what I see. If you've got good fit 'n finished Shigs then that's awesome, and I thank you for weighing in here, but I ask that you don't get mad at me for stating what I (too) know to be true.



I didn't sense any anger, just opinion.


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## parbaked (Mar 17, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> I see thousands of Japanese knives a year (and I've been at this since 2004)



Really...thousands knives a year...is that like 2-3 knives a day people are sending you???


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## inzite (Mar 17, 2018)

parbaked said:


> Really...thousands knives a year...is that like 2-3 knives a day people are sending you???



maybe thats why it is usually an unusual long wait... haha. Dave can open a museum with all those knives, maybe higher output than some factories in japan. i wonder how he has time to post here!


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## inzite (Mar 17, 2018)

brooksie967 said:


> If those are bad i guess my Ashi handles are the shits too.



total **** mannn ill take a martell over that anyday! the pin i mean.


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## Gregmega (Mar 17, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Greg, there's no reason to get upset here. I'm just stating what I've seen is all. I see thousands of Japanese knives a year (and I've been at this since 2004) and beyond that I get emails asking for quotes that often have attached pictures with explanations of problems. Like I said I'm just stating what I see. If you've got good fit 'n finished Shigs then that's awesome, and I thank you for weighing in here, but I ask that you don't get mad at me for stating what I (too) know to be true.



I certainly didn't intend for it to read as upset at all, I was kinda going for facetious. Please don't think less of me for sharing my experience.


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## daveb (Mar 17, 2018)

The biggest disappointment in westerns to hit my box was a Carter - back before he realized there was money to be made by offering a decent handle. At the time it was almost automatic - get a new Carter, send it to Martell for a new handle, have a nice knife. Turned those little half tang bastards into works of art.


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## Barmoley (Mar 17, 2018)

I think you were just showing off how many shigs you have:rofl2:


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

parbaked said:


> Really...thousands knives a year...is that like 2-3 knives a day people are sending you???




Sometimes I get no knives each day and other times I get a whole bunch. Saying thousands would be conservative actually.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

inzite said:


> maybe thats why it is usually an unusual long wait... haha. Dave can open a museum with all those knives, maybe higher output than some factories in japan. i wonder how he has time to post here!




This sounds similar to the last post(s) you made about me. 

And yes sharpening knives is a big part of my business, it's how I started and it's easily 50% of my income.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

inzite said:


> total **** mannn ill take a martell over that anyday!




Now you're being a dick. Are you butthurt about me talking badly about your love Fujiwara?


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## Dave Martell (Mar 17, 2018)

Gregmega said:


> I certainly didn't intend for it to read as upset at all, I was kinda going for facetious. Please don't think less of me for sharing my experience.




I didn't mean to assume you were upset, it's the written word thing and all, sorry.


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## Anton (Mar 17, 2018)

brooksie967 said:


> If those are bad i guess my Ashi handles are the shits too.



yikes...
It's ok, nobody is perfect...


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## brooksie967 (Mar 17, 2018)

Anton said:


> yikes...
> It's ok, nobody is perfect...



:rofl2:


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Now you're being a dick. Are you butthurt about me talking badly about your love Fujiwara?



nah, TF got bad handles but cuts well . and wow, you had to edit out the "pin" :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:?


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

swarth said:


> Is this a troll? Or marketing?



probably the later, u know, shigs prices are a new high every day, the last time i checked prices of "other" knives they weren't following the same trend


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## Jovidah (Mar 18, 2018)

Maybe it's all in the eye of the beholder? When I held my first J-knife (a Carbonext gyuto) I was genuinely impressed by how nice the handles were. They are probably by all definition bog standard plain pakkawood western handles...but still I find them very comfortable. Just like the other Carbonext and Fujiwara (Kanefusa, the cheap one) knives. Are they perfect when you look at them under magnification? Probably not. But when you compare them to the dull western POM handles, or the cheapish handles they put on Chinese knives... well... it's still leaps and bounds ahead and feels a ton better.

As a slight aside... there was one exception to my 'crap handles on Chinese-made knives'... this little thing:
https://www.blokker.nl/p/bk-skills-officemes-9-cm/1137568/images/full/1137568.jpg
Crappy soft chinese made X-50, bog standard cheap crap.... but the handle is coated in some kind of rubbery plastic that may _look_ like crap, but is arguably one of the most comfortable, grippy (especially when wet) and best working handles I've ever touched, especially on such a small knife. It's a shame it's on such a crappy blade... that handle is the only reason I haven't tossed it out years ago.
So I guess moral of the story is that looks and functionality don't necessarily always go hand in hand... nor do good blades and good handles.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> Maybe it's all in the eye of the beholder? When I held my first J-knife (a Carbonext gyuto) I was genuinely impressed by how nice the handles were. They are probably by all definition bog standard plain pakkawood western handles...but still I find them very comfortable. Just like the other Carbonext and Fujiwara (Kanefusa, the cheap one) knives. Are they perfect when you look at them under magnification? Probably not. But when you compare them to the dull western POM handles, or the cheapish handles they put on Chinese knives... well... it's still leaps and bounds ahead and feels a ton better.



honestly, I agree with ya i mean most knives from jp in western handle are at least ok - minus TF western handles but I guess it's really some #SALTY season here so even Shigs and Ashi get the stick HAHA.


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## Jovidah (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> honestly, I agree with ya i mean most knives from jp in western handle are at least ok - minus TF western handles but I guess it's really some #SALTY season here so even Shigs and Ashi get the stick HAHA.



Well I can imagine if you handle them on a daily basis and actually construct your own.... your bar gets put a little higher. This eventually happens to all of us when going down the rabbit hole. Most of us here have ridiculously skewed knife standards as it is anyway. Give a random person on the street a Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM and they'll go 'wow... it's so sharp, this is the best knife I ever laid my hands on... it's a genuine work of Japanese art'. Ask for opinions here and people will say 'well it comes with a crap edge, needs some thinning, and the handles are boxy crap.. but it's decent as a beater or a cheap gift'.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> This sounds similar to the last post(s) you made about me.
> 
> And yes sharpening knives is a big part of my business, it's how I started and it's easily 50% of my income.



i was merely quoting your original post that went up in smokes, you know, about throwing people to the back of the line if they emailed you etc and some examples of people being out of their knives for extended period of time with the risk of going even longer if they emailed you or spoke out lmao. thought things turned for the better but maybe not.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> Well I can imagine if you handle them on a daily basis and actually construct your own.... your bar gets put a little higher. This eventually happens to all of us when going down the rabbit hole. Most of us here have ridiculously skewed knife standards as it is anyway. Give a random person on the street a Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM and they'll go 'wow... it's so sharp, this is the best knife I ever laid my hands on... it's a genuine work of Japanese art'. Ask for opinions here and people will say 'well it comes with a crap edge, needs some thinning, and the handles are boxy crap.. but it's decent as a beater or a cheap gift'.



i agree with the points about people having different expectations but for some of the top knives coming out of japan i dunno man, shigs and ashi honyakis i'm sure folks who own them can speak to the quality.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> probably the later, u know, shigs prices are a new high every day, the last time i checked prices of "other" knives they weren't following the same trend




:funfunfunfun:


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> :funfunfunfun:



:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> i was merely quoting your original post that went up in smokes, you know, about throwing people to the back of the line if they emailed you etc and some examples of people being out of their knives for extended period of time with the risk of going even longer if they emailed you or spoke out lmao. thought things turned for the better but maybe not.




Is it out of your system yet? I'd like to get back to talking about how ****** Fujiwara knives are.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Is it out of your system yet? I'd like to get back to talking about how ****** Fujiwara knives are.



yep, handles are horrible esp on the nashiji, mine cuts lovely though . and the yo shig is good too in both handles and cutting .


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> yep, handles are horrible esp on the nashiji, mine cuts lovely though .




Well sure handles on those are bad but I was talking about those western denkas...yikes!


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Well sure handles on those are bad but I was talking about those western denkas...yikes!



for sure, handles on those are pretty bad too - so i tell people to buy wa, but cuts wonderful, better than anything i've tried but i have not tried a martell - i love the pins you use on your handles.


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## El Pescador (Mar 18, 2018)

Careful Dave, I have a Zwelling Kramer Chef's knife that I might send you for a rehandle... I hear you LOVE rehandling them!

Pesky


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## Jovidah (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> i agree with the points about people having different expectations but for some of the top knives coming out of japan i dunno man, shigs and ashi honyakis i'm sure folks who own them can speak to the quality.



Well to be fair... the Shigs are so hyped and pricey that by the time they arrive at someone's doorstep people are viewing them through thick pink-tinted sugar-coated glasses of cognitive dissonance. And as someone else pointed out there might also be some variation between knives made in different periods. 
I think that's also something that's rarely discussed here; the amount of variation between knives of the same producer / line. The fact that some specimen might be flawless (or flawed) is not necessarily indicative for the whole line.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

El Pescador said:


> Careful Dave, I have a Zwelling Kramer Chef's knife that I might send you for a rehandle... I hear you LOVE rehandling them!
> 
> Pesky



:bigeek: I forgot about those.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> Well to be fair... the Shigs are so hyped and pricey that by the time they arrive at someone's doorstep people are viewing them through thick pink-tinted sugar-coated glasses of cognitive dissonance. And as someone else pointed out there might also be some variation between knives made in different periods.
> I think that's also something that's rarely discussed here; the amount of variation between knives of the same producer / line. The fact that some specimen might be flawless (or flawed) is not necessarily indicative for the whole line.



for sure, i heard the older ones were rougher - my yo shig seems pretty good i would say. Anything is bound for variance which is reasonable, just like how i look at Dave's posts here except it is always about something that's bad about others.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

Typical Fujiwara


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Typical Fujiwara



yep, bang on dave, let's see the yo shigs.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 18, 2018)

brooksie967 said:


> These are runner up for second worst yo-handle?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Showoff


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> for sure, i heard the older ones were rougher - my yo shig seems pretty good i would say. Anything is bound for variance which is reasonable, just like how i look at Dave's posts here except it is always about something that's bad about others.




Ahhh hah! Now we have it. 

I shouldn't ever post about what I see? 

It's OK for people to ignorantly buy the crap that uneducated members spout off as great? Hi I'm so and so, I just discovered that a knife can cut food and guess what I found Fujiwara and they cut the best you should get one...post #1.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Showoff



pretty things are worth showing hahhah


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Typical Fujiwara




Sorry, but I would not say typical. I've seen at least 15 Denka's and none looked that bad. Outliers or maybe just lucky......:knife:


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Ahhh hah! Now we have it.
> 
> I shouldn't ever post about what I see?
> 
> It's OK for people to ignorantly buy the crap that uneducated members spout off as great? Hi I'm so and so, I just discovered that a knife can cut food and guess what I found Fujiwara and they cut the best you should get one...post #1.



i dunno Dave, if someone is looking for a cutter i would def seriously recommend denka and if someone is looking for a perfect fit and finish i would recommend one of those western honyaki at jki. And if someone is looking for a buying experience and customer service then i would likely not recommend a martell. no hard feelings.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> yep, bang on dave, let's see the yo shigs.




I don't have any pictures of those to share. I could also say that Sigs smell bad, which they do, but you wouldn't believe me about that anymore than you'll believe about their handles because I'm just knocking me competition, right?


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## Gregmega (Mar 18, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> Well to be fair... the Shigs are so hyped and pricey that by the time they arrive at someone's doorstep people are viewing them through thick pink-tinted sugar-coated glasses of cognitive dissonance. And as someone else pointed out there might also be some variation between knives made in different periods.
> I think that's also something that's rarely discussed here; the amount of variation between knives of the same producer / line. The fact that some specimen might be flawless (or flawed) is not necessarily indicative for the whole line.



I've held in the neighborhood of 35-40 shigs in one sitting at a friend's house (yes, you read that correctly) and as far as consistency over time, I'd say for completely hand-made knives, these win for general finish. At least they're consistent. 

As for TF though...


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Sorry, but I would not say typical. I've seen at least 15 Denka's and none looked that bad. Outliers or maybe just lucky......:knife:



but u know dave might tell you he has seen hundreds or maybe thousand of em.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

As for Shig blades go, they are ground and finished superbly. TF knives are a hot mess in comparison.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> I don't have any pictures of those to share. I could also say that Sigs smell bad, which they do, but you wouldn't believe me about that anymore than you'll believe about their handles because I'm just knocking me competition, right?



well dave if u set out to make a point then u should back it up. so no yo shig pics?


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> but u know dave might tell you he has seen hundreds or maybe thousand of em.




Where did I claim that I've seen thousands of any specific knife? Umm hmmm


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> well dave if u set out to make a point then u should back it up. so no yo shig pics?




Yeah you win, no pictures - no proof - only my word here.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> As for Shig blades go, they are ground and finished superbly. TF knives are a hot mess in comparison.



mine cuts great and yes tf westerns can get pretty bad but again, my point above.


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## brooksie967 (Mar 18, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Showoff



They're not mine


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> i dunno Dave, if someone is looking for a cutter i would def seriously recommend denka and if someone is looking for a perfect fit and finish i would recommend one of those western honyaki at jki. And if someone is looking for a buying experience and customer service then i would likely not recommend a martell. no hard feelings.




No hard feelings at all.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Yeah you win, no pictures - no proof - only my word here.



i merely pointed out pics are important if you are trying to tell people shigs are lousy.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> No hard feelings at all.



we good we good dave. i love those pins you use.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

and here is a lousy shig.


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## brooksie967 (Mar 18, 2018)

I'm very surprised to hear there are no pictures of the thousands of knives each year. Everyone that does custom handles sends pictures before returning it to a customer to ensure they are absolutely satisfied. Something seems a little fishy.


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## Anton (Mar 18, 2018)

those Shig you handles are way to skinny


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Anton said:


> those Shig you handles are way to skinny



yeah they are on the skinnier side, the one i posted is my 240 suji. not sure how skinny the gyutos are.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

brooksie967 said:


> I'm very surprised to hear there are no pictures of the thousands of knives each year. Everyone that does custom handles sends pictures before returning it to a customer to ensure they are absolutely satisfied. Something seems a little fishy.




Yeah it does seem fishy as in you're fishing. :goodpost:


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Yeah it does seem fishy as in you're fishing. :goodpost:



he does have a point though, so how many of the thousands were yo shigs?


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## HRC_64 (Mar 18, 2018)

shig smiths hate western handles anyway :rofl:


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> shig smiths hate western handles anyway :rofl:



maybe they know dave martell hates em. :spiteful: or maybe dave wants one deep inside. ill give dave first dibs though so he can finally have a photo of one.


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## Jovidah (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite; what's up with your personal vendetta against Dave? And why do you even care? If he gets numerous requests for rehandles that's what he gets...and the owners must have good reasons to ask for a rehandle.
I don't see how he gains from that or would have any reason to make it up. If anything he should be encouraging people to buy knives with crap handles as it would only generate more rehandling business... 
I think it's also stretching things to consider them as 'knocking the competition' as the knives he makes himself and the Shig / Fujiwara knives are wildly different.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> inzite; what's up with your personal vendetta against Dave? And why do you even care? If he gets numerous requests for rehandles that's what he gets...and the owners must have good reasons to ask for a rehandle.
> I don't see how he gains from that or would have any reason to make it up. If anything he should be encouraging people to buy knives with crap handles as it would only generate more rehandling business...
> I think it's also stretching things to consider them as 'knocking the competition' as the knives he makes himself and the Shig / Fujiwara knives are wildly different.



as dave and i agreed on in earlier post there is absolutely no hard feelings.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> he does have a point though, so how many of the thousands were yo shigs?




I'm glad you asked, even though I make reference earlier in the thread.

Yo shigs aren't (thankfully) seen nearly as often as wa versions are so I'd have to say not many. If 100% of the ones I have seen suck what does that mean? Not enough?

A side note....The worst ever Japanese knife scale fit up I've ever seen was on a yo Shig. That particular knife belongs to a guy who likely has the largest set of Carter Pro damascus knives in existence. He too was shocked with the handle quality but neither of us took pictures so I guess it never happened.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> shig smiths hate western handles anyway :rofl:




I can believe that.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> I'm glad you asked, even though I make reference earlier in the thread.
> 
> Yo shigs aren't (thankfully) seen nearly as often as wa versions are so I'd have to say not many. If 100% of the ones I have seen suck what does that mean? Not enough?
> 
> A side note....The worst ever Japanese knife scale fit up I've ever seen was on a yo Shig. That particular knife belongs to a guy who likely has the largest set of Carter Pro damascus knives in existence. He too was shocked with the handle quality but neither of us took pictures so I guess it never happened.



i dunno dave like i said earlier if you set out to make a claim then its good to have supporting visuals. other than that i really like some of the pins you use.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> i dunno dave like i said earlier if you set out to make a claim then its good to have supporting visuals.



I've been down that road with pictures on other maker's knives, like Moritaka. No one believed it then even with pictures. I'm starting to think that I shouldn't bother speaking the truth about such things here. We should all go back to talking PC about everything and forget what we see.


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## Panamapeet (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> I'm glad you asked, even though I make reference earlier in the thread.
> 
> Yo shigs aren't (thankfully) seen nearly as often as wa versions are so I'd have to say not many. If 100% of the ones I have seen suck what does that mean? Not enough?
> 
> A side note....The worst ever Japanese knife scale fit up I've ever seen was on a yo Shig. That particular knife belongs to a guy who likely has the largest set of Carter Pro damascus knives in existence. He too was shocked with the handle quality but neither of us took pictures so I guess it never happened.



Who fitted that Shig handle though? A lot of them come without handles and are fitted later. 

I have to say Im having a hard time reading about a professional vendor slacking off other knives while he (i) makes people wait an ungodly amount of time for simple work, (ii) must sell stuff in advance to pay for materials on other knives and (iii) makes a weird post about people asking if their knife is done. Maybe get your act together before you start slacking off other makers.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

And what the hell am I doing up at almost 2AM talking about knives?


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> I've been down that road with pictures on other maker's knives, like Moritaka. No one believed it then even with pictures. I'm starting to think that I shouldn't bother speaking the truth about such things here. We should all go back to talking PC about everything and forget what we see.



i dunno dave like i said no hard feelings just stating what would be a more logical approach in delivering a claim.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Spipet said:


> Who fitted that Shig handle though? A lot of them come without handles and are fitted later.
> 
> I have to say Im having a hard time reading about a professional vendor slacking off other knives while he (i) makes people wait an ungodly amount of time for simple work, (ii) must sell stuff in advance to pay for materials on other knives and (iii) makes a weird post about people asking if their knife is done. Maybe get your act together before you start slacking off other makers.



one brave soul, like a denka in a sea of shigs!


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> And what the hell am I doing up at almost 2AM talking about knives?



should be rehandling someones knive thats been sitting for a while?


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

Spipet said:


> I have to say Im having a hard time reading about a professional vendor slacking off other knives while he (i) makes people wait an ungodly amount of time for simple work, (ii) must sell stuff in advance to pay for materials on other knives and (iii) makes a weird post about people asking if their knife is done. Maybe get your act together before you start slacking off other makers.




You're 100% correct. 

I have issues that I constantly work on yet aren't resolved. I shouldn't be talking about other makers' (with better business sense than I) ****** work. It's better for people here to buy these other knives and then contact me for rehandle work to be told the bad news then.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> should be rehandling someones knive thats been sitting for a while?




Yeah, that's what I'm normally doing at this time. Then up again at 0800 to start again. I took tonight off and look where I am.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Yeah, that's what I'm normally doing at this time. Then up again at 0800 to start again. I took tonight off and look where I am.



hopefully no one posted here will be tossed to the back of the line. would you promise not to toss me if i want your pins?


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> hopefully no one posted here will be tossed to the back of the line. would you promise not to toss me if i want your pins?




You're more likely the tosser than the tossed?


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> You're more likely the tosser than the tossed?



mmmmmm


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

Spipet said:


> Who fitted that Shig handle though? A lot of them come without handles and are fitted later.




That particular knife came directly from Shigefusa, delivered by one of, if not the, first US retailers who was very good personal friends with the old man.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

Well I hate to leave you guys when we're having such fun but I'm heading off to bed. Have fun ignoring what I said and bashing me. I probably won't be back to rebut though. Take care!


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## MastrAndre (Mar 18, 2018)

Well, Im not very experienced in knife things tho, but I think the worst western handles ever are the ones you pay a lot and in front for, and then you have to wait 2-3-4 years for delivery too...


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

MastrAndre said:


> Well, Im not very experienced in knife things tho, but I think the worst western handles ever are the ones you pay a lot and in front for, and then you have to wait 2-3-4 years for delivery too...



:bat::bat::bat::whistling:


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## Eitan78 (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> and here is a lousy shig.



Absolutely lousy, horrible! Send it over for proper disposal [emoji23]


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## Zweber12 (Mar 18, 2018)

Hopefully by tomorrow, these two are sobered up. Meanwhile, this thread is useless without images; below some detailed shots of ill fitted Shig handle on a 135mm yo petty:


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Eitan78 said:


> Absolutely lousy, horrible! Send it over for proper disposal [emoji23]



i heard shig lord himself have real lousy ones like kitaeji chuka.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

Zweber12 said:


> Hopefully by tomorrow, these two are sobered up. Meanwhile, this thread is useless without images; below some detailed shots of ill fitted Shig handle on a 135mm yo petty:



lousy lousy. send dat over ill pay dave to rehandle it into a wa. you will get it back in 2 yrs.


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## Eitan78 (Mar 18, 2018)

inzite said:


> i heard shig lord himself have real lousy ones like kitaeji chuka.



The worst


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 18, 2018)

Eitan78 said:


> Absolutely lousy, horrible! Send it over for proper disposal [emoji23]



Same Eitan? If yes, tell us about your Denka F&F. That knife is one of the best looking TF gyutos I've seen.

[video=youtube;-1mOO4Q37sE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1mOO4Q37sE&t=16s[/video]


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## Gregmega (Mar 18, 2018)

Owowowwww my eyes oh stop this assault on my sensibilities of fit and finish!! Definitely second worst all time


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## Eitan78 (Mar 18, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Same Eitan? If yes, tell us about your Denka F&F. That knife is one of the best looking TF gyutos I've seen.
> 
> [video=youtube;-1mOO4Q37sE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1mOO4Q37sE&t=16s[/video]



Oh no no no sir, different Eitan, sorry do disappoint, I dont own a TF Denka
I do however have a couple of lovely yo shigs&#129315;


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## RDalman (Mar 18, 2018)

I rehandled one of those cheapest TF with resin wood scales. If one would want to, one could consider the construction pretty genious, forged down thin flat tang and mount scales a little "proud" on the tang. Pretty much no grinding/polishing needed for a (fairly) functional handle. It's ok to like different.. Maybe he manages to meet a demand with that line and his customers are happy. Some will be less than thrilled with the western knifemaker typical approach of epoxying plastic infused woods together with all kinds of liners, and prefer the more traditional approach of natural wood and rivets on a neatly forged blade, shaped with "clean lines". Different strokes.. There's quite a few that like to use the simplest raw ho-wood wa handles with all their qualities, and I can usually relate to that too, even if it's not my preference. Also, there's the allure of traditional craftsmanship. I met other makers at a show, many of their work I didn't care for much, but I could definately see the charm of their knives/craft and understand what their customers valued in their work.


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## QCDawg (Mar 18, 2018)

Anyway


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## megapuff5 (Mar 18, 2018)

I never liked western handle myself


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## K813zra (Mar 18, 2018)

I don't buy a lot of Yo handle knives. I did get to use a T-F Nashiji and it convinced me that when I order mine it will be a Wa. I don't do the whole re-handle thing. I have not met a Wa handle that I couldn't live with, yet. Only two fingers on the handle in a pinch grip anyway.  Poor fit is not the issue, for me, with Yo handles though but rather comfort. My Fuji FKH is indifferent at best but the handle is still comfortable with no hot spots. Compare to a cheap US made knife like an Old Hickory and there you have your difference. Worst handle I have ever used is on an OH...It will blister your calluses! No contouring at all. But I can forgive that in a $20 knife. A $300 knife maybe not so much.

Coffee time...


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## swarth (Mar 18, 2018)

To think that I spent half a minute bummed that this guy wouldnt do my knife...


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## Dave Martell (Mar 18, 2018)

MastrAndre said:


> Well, Im not very experienced in knife things tho, but I think the worst western handles ever are the ones you pay a lot and in front for, and then you have to wait 2-3-4 years for delivery too...




Your input has been duly noted. I promise to never share any information with this forum again. Now I'll get back to work.





swarth said:


> To think that I spent half a minute bummed that this guy wouldnt do my knife...




Kevin Engert is that you?


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## rick alen (Mar 18, 2018)

I haven't seen worse than the Fibrox and Vic Rosewood, or do popular cheap knives count here? Anyways those 2 are easily fixed to acceptable with a Dremel.


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## rick alen (Mar 18, 2018)

Wow


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## Chef Doom (Mar 18, 2018)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Ken Onion chef knives. Don't get me wrong I have one of his folders that is one of my favorites, but his chef knives suck.


What? I think his design are gorgeous. You sir have no taste in art.


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## milkbaby (Mar 18, 2018)

RDalman said:


> I rehandled one of those cheapest TF with resin wood scales. If one would want to, one could consider the construction pretty genious, forged down thin flat tang and mount scales a little "proud" on the tang. Pretty much no grinding/polishing needed for a (fairly) functional handle. It's ok to like different.. Maybe he manages to meet a demand with that line and his customers are happy.



Very good point! TF Nashiji 210 gyuto is about $180 shipped worldwide, so while not cheap is still a relatively affordable handmade knife. I think many people may actually enjoy the rustic aesthetic although I'm not actually sure that is necessarily the intent of the maker in this case?

Dave probably gets a skewed sample of knives as a poorly handled knife is probably more likely to be sent to him or at least sent a pic and inquiry to him for rehandling. There may also be a bias in who sends knives to him for sharpening in his location, the sampling may not be as broad as say what Jon Broida at JKI in LA or Korin in NYC see in walk in retail locations in the middle of big population centers.


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## inzite (Mar 18, 2018)

milkbaby said:


> Very good point! TF Nashiji 210 gyuto is about $180 shipped worldwide, so while not cheap is still a relatively affordable handmade knife. I think many people may actually enjoy the rustic aesthetic although I'm not actually sure that is necessarily the intent of the maker in this case?
> 
> Dave probably gets a skewed sample of knives as a poorly handled knife is probably more likely to be sent to him or at least sent a pic and inquiry to him for rehandling. There may also be a bias in who sends knives to him for sharpening in his location, the sampling may not be as broad as say what Jon Broida at JKI in LA or Korin in NYC see in walk in retail locations in the middle of big population centers.



but Dave must be right because he handles thousands of knives a year - so this means at least 2000/yr but based on his post it sounds more like 5000/yr, over a span of 10 years he must have handled at least 50,000 knives with enough of a yo shigs and tfs for him to say that. 5000 knives with 50% for sharpening and remaining for rehandling plus his own knives, that might explain why you need to wait 2 yrs . just some non scientific math.


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## bkultra (Mar 18, 2018)

Locking this thread, it's turning into a schoolyard fight. Please don't let this spillover into other threads.


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