# Kramer Zwilling 10" Chef's Knive arrived



## deanb

Got the new Kramer Zwilling knife today.:thumbsup: Some of the pics show it with the real Kramer 9" Chef's knife for comparison. I was very pleasantly surprised with the knife. I was prepared to be a little disappointed but not so. The F&F is excellent. The distal taper is comparable to the real Kramer and the choil and spine are nicely rounded. The OOTB edge is pretty good. Haven't had a chance to sharpen it yet. It's perfectly balanced at the bottom of the bolster and feels very much like the real deal in my hand.

I tried to get some shots of the choil and spine but the came out like [email protected]


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## rockbox

Is the geometry the same?


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## deanb

Here's another attempt to get the choil shot. The geometries are very similar.


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## rockbox

I think Zwilling has a winner on its hands. Since its carbon, you can thin the crap out of it without worrying about the pattern.


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## tk59

That's pretty damn close. How big is the gap between the ferrule and the blade?


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## deanb

tk59 said:


> That's pretty damn close. How big is the gap between the ferrule and the blade?


 I can't see a gap, if I understand you right.


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## mainaman

tk59 said:


> That's pretty damn close. How big is the gap between the ferrule and the blade?


 
hm I think I see it too but may be it is just light reflection?


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## SpikeC

Or shadow.


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## 99Limited

I think it's cool that you've got the real deal and one of its clones.


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## TDj

on one hand, the real Kramer appears a little thinner ... on the other - the new one is longer ... looks pretty good, though! i'm impressed!


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## Noodle Soup

Don't expect to see any real reviews in the media anytime soon. Henckels' US ad agency is willing to loan the press a knife for 10 days with a signed statement you will return it totally unused, in mint resellable condition including the box and any paperwork it contains.


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## SpikeC

Pffft!!!!


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## Lefty

That looks like a winner. Zwilling knows what they're doing again.


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## watercrawl

Nice!! I want one now.


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## James

It seems that they used leaded brass in those (or at least that's what the 6" model says on the site)...just an FYI; besides that, the knife looks great!


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## kalaeb

Very nice Dean, keep us posted!


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## Cnimativ

played around w/ the knife at my local sur la table yesterday. it has a very thick spine especially towards the neck area.


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## rockbox

Cnimativ said:


> played around w/ the knife at my local sur la table yesterday. it has a very thick spine especially towards the neck area.



Spine thickness is not a great indicator of performance especially on a knife that is tall like the Kramer.


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## deanb

Cnimativ said:


> played around w/ the knife at my local sur la table yesterday. it has a very thick spine especially towards the neck area.


 The spine thickness of the Kramer Zwilling is actually slightly thinner than the real Kramer. I put the new knife to the stones tonight. The progression was 1k, 5k, 8k, and 12k. All Shapton Pros. Then to the strop loaded with CO2. Scary sharp, really scary.


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## Vladimir

deanb said:


> The spine thickness of the Kramer Zwilling is actually slightly thinner than the real Kramer. I put the new knife to the stones tonight. The progression was 1k, 5k, 8k, and 12k. All Shapton Pros. Then to the strop loaded with CO2. Scary sharp, really scary.


 I want to see a knife in their work


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## Cnimativ

rockbox said:


> Spine thickness is not a great indicator of performance especially on a knife that is tall like the Kramer.


 
No, but just pointing out my observations. It is significantly more substantial than any chefs knives i have experienced


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## Aphex

I'm really suprised how much i like this knife, it looks like it could be a real winner.

It would be interesting to see some decent reviews on this one, i'm tempted to hand over some hard earned $ on this one.


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## mr drinky

Yeah, I think I am wanting one now. Thanks deanb.

k.


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## deanb

Aphex said:


> I'm really suprised how much i like this knife, it looks like it could be a real winner.
> 
> It would be interesting to see some decent reviews on this one, i'm tempted to hand over some hard earned $ on this one.


 
Are you saying my review was not decent?? Just kidding, or course it wasn't a proper review. Just my impressions. I can pretty much guarantee that if you buy this knife that you won't be disappointed. l was amazed at how close it came to the real Kramer. Good luck, however way you choose to go.


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## stereo.pete

Thanks for taking the time to share the pics and review of your new knife Dean.


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## Pensacola Tiger

Dean, thanks for the mini-review. Please keep your impressions coming, especially those you gain when you start using the knife, especially compared to the "real deal". 

My experience with other knives made from 52100 is that they are not overly reactive, and I'd like to hear about this knife in that regard.

Thanks, again,

Rick


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## JohnnyChance

I should be getting one when my local SLT gets them in stock. I post some pic/vids/measurements when I do.


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## peterm

JohnnyChance said:


> I should be getting one when my local SLT gets them in stock. I post some pic/vids/measurements when I do.


 
Let me know when they do - I may have to make a trip up that way to check them out! As long as you don't get the only 10-inch one!


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## JohnnyChance

Where in CT are you Peter?


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## mhlee

It looks like choil on the Zwilling is less rounded than the real thing. How are the spines compared to each other? Is one less rounded?


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## so_sleepy

I just checked these out at my local SLT. I was looking to get the slicer, but I'm going to pass. I'll reconsider if they produce a Meji version. Bob's western handles are a little awkward for me and the slicer has zero knuckle clearance.

The 10" chefs knife was a pretty good approximation. I didn't do a side by side comparison but I'm pretty sure my Kramer is a bit thinner especially the 3" or so near the tip.


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## Cnimativ

so_sleepy said:


> I just checked these out at my local SLT. I was looking to get the slicer, but I'm going to pass. I'll reconsider if they produce a Meji version. Bob's western handles are a little awkward for me and the slicer has zero knuckle clearance.
> 
> The 10" chefs knife was a pretty good approximation. I didn't do a side by side comparison but I'm pretty sure my Kramer is a bit thinner especially the 3" or so near the tip.


 
It has severe tapering from the neck to the tip. I like the shape of its paring knife. Gyuto, not so much.


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## JohnnyChance

I was thinking about the slicer too, but I don't like the shape of it or it having zero heel/knuckle clearance like you said. 

I don't mind the spine/choil not being quite round enough or it not being quite thin enough. I like doing these things myself, makes my knife more unique and "mine". And I have never worked on a 52100 knife before so I will enjoy learning about the steel and the feedback I get from modifying it. I know at this price some people want the knife to ready to go already, and for most people it is. I just prefer them a little smoother and thinner, so I am going to do that and not feel gypped that it wasn't that way ootb. Bob's name and being sold at SLT automatically add to the retail price of the knife, and I have some real japanese knives that were close to this price and were actually awful in terms of finish and thinness, so overall I think it can still be a good value.


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## deanb

http://wwhttp://www.kitchenknifefor....kitchenknifeforums.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

These are pics of the knife after soaking in white vinegar for 45 minutes and before. Thanks for the suggestion Dave.


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## Dave Martell

Looks like you got what you were looking for....cool.


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## Abattoir

Kramers have always looked SOOOOO tall to me which has always been a deal breaker for every going after one and these seem to be no exception. Im going to have to go check these out in person when the local SLT gets them in stock. Any chance of getting a shot holding the knife in a pinch grip with the edge on the board???? =D


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## jaybett

Abattoir said:


> Kramers have always looked SOOOOO tall to me which has always been a deal breaker for every going after one and these seem to be no exception. Im going to have to go check these out in person when the local SLT gets them in stock. Any chance of getting a shot holding the knife in a pinch grip with the edge on the board???? =D


 
My SLT, has a cutting board with a basket full of veggies, for customers to try the demo knives. I was a bit surprised, when they let me play with a Shun Kramer.

Jay


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## so_sleepy

jaybett said:


> My SLT, has a cutting board with a basket full of veggies, for customers to try the demo knives. I was a bit surprised, when they let me play with a Shun Kramer.
> 
> Jay


 
My SLT had a basket of carrots to work with. They are really pushing the Kramers right now(there is a sign on the front door). The PopSci article said they only have an exclusive until September.



Abattoir said:


> Kramers have always looked SOOOOO tall to me which has always been a deal breaker for every going after one and these seem to be no exception. Im going to have to go check these out in person when the local SLT gets them in stock. Any chance of getting a shot holding the knife in a pinch grip with the edge on the board???? =D



A lot of people dismiss the Kramer because of the profile but never get to try it. It might surprise you, they don't feel especially tall. I wish these had been around before I ordered mine. The customization I would have ordered is to add an inch or two of flat near the tip.


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## deanb

Abattoir said:


> Kramers have always looked SOOOOO tall to me which has always been a deal breaker for every going after one and these seem to be no exception. Im going to have to go check these out in person when the local SLT gets them in stock. Any chance of getting a shot holding the knife in a pinch grip with the edge on the board???? =D





Sure.


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## deanb

mhlee said:


> It looks like choil on the Zwilling is less rounded than the real thing. How are the spines compared to each other? Is one less rounded?


 
The choil and the spine on both are very similar. I think Bob had a much easier time convincing Zwilling to do things his way than he did with Shun.


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## deanb

Just an update. I had company for the last few days and I did a lot of cooking, a lot of protein and a lot of veggies. I'm trying to gauge the edge holding ability of the Kramer Zwilling so I used it for everything. The edge is still hair popping sharp so I think they got the heat treatment right. I'm going to see how long it takes before I have to strop. I'll keep you posted but for now I think this knife is a real winner. A real 10" Kramer 52100 chef's knife goes for $1500 (I think) and this one goes for $350.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

deanb said:


> Just an update. I had company for the last few days and I did a lot of cooking, a lot of protein and a lot of veggies. I'm trying to gauge the edge holding ability of the Kramer Zwilling so I used it for everything. The edge is still hair popping sharp so I think they got the heat treatment right. I'm going to see how long it takes before I have to strop. I'll keep you posted but for now I think this knife is a real winner. A real 10" Kramer 52100 chef's knife goes for $1500 (I think) and this one goes for $350.


 
Yes sir you are correct.


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## Avishar

deanb said:


> Just an update. I had company for the last few days and I did a lot of cooking, a lot of protein and a lot of veggies. I'm trying to gauge the edge holding ability of the Kramer Zwilling so I used it for everything. The edge is still hair popping sharp so I think they got the heat treatment right. I'm going to see how long it takes before I have to strop. I'll keep you posted but for now I think this knife is a real winner. A real 10" Kramer 52100 chef's knife goes for $1500 (I think) and this one goes for $350.



Mine comes in today! I've been through the 8 and 10" Kramer Shuns and wasn't too happy with the belly bloat, but I picked up the 8" in the store yesterday and was surprised with how good it felt. I should be receiving it (10") at work so I'll be happy to give my impressions after some rigorous commercial kitchen abuse . I've never used 52100 before, so we'll see how well it "reacts" to some produce! Hopefully it will be a good replacement for the beater 240 Miyabi Birchwood that was used before it.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

You'll love 52100. When done right, it's a wonderful steel.


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## jwpark

It's sure tempting to go for the clone.


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## Avishar

Ignore this one, seperate thread started :shocked3: :ninja: edit


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## mhlee

Does the knife have any flex?


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## chazmtb

mhlee said:


> Does the knife have any flex?


 
I am very interested to know too.


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## deanb

mhlee said:


> Does the knife have any flex?



Yes, about the same as my real Kramer, although the real one is an inch shorter.


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## mhlee

deanb said:


> Yes, about the same as my real Kramer, although the real one is an inch shorter.


 
Sorry to ask more about the flex, but I've never handled a Kramer so I'm not familiar with how much flex Kramers have. Would you say it's like 2-3 mm? More? Less?

Thanks Dean.


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## deanb

mhlee said:


> Sorry to ask more about the flex, but I've never handled a Kramer so I'm not familiar with how much flex Kramers have. Would you say it's like 2-3 mm? More? Less?
> 
> Thanks Dean.



With a few lbs of pressure on the handle, the tip flexes 5-10 mm. It's hard to measure but that's my eyeball guess.


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## mpukas

The more I look at this thing and the more I read the reports and feedback coming in, the more it appeals. Here's why; 

it's a legit Kramer mass reproduced, done well, very well; like him & his knives or not, he's mastered what he does and that alone commands respect

it's solid steel, not clad

it's 52100

it's got interesting - ie good - geometries in both the handle and blade

the blade looks like it's got a good length of flatness

I've never been a Henckels/Zwilling fan, but they've stepped up their game with Morimoto, Miyabi and now the Kramer knives. All look to be very good for what they are; this Kramer is the only one I would consider. Could care less for the Shun Kramer's. But would I drop $350 on this Z. Kramer before another knife such as a DT ITK, I'm not sure... but it's become a top contender! :scratchhead:


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Hell, I would even consider getting despite the fact I already have a real one.


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## WildBoar

Hopefully I'll get to play with one Sunday at SLT, with coaching from The Seeker himself :cool2: Bringing my Hiro, DT ITK and Pierre petty for comparison.


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## Mattias504

I mean if you want a Kramer, how could you not be interested in this one. I'm probably never going to pay upwards of $1.5k for a knife so this is really my only option to try out something that is Kramer-esque. I might have to hold on though and wait for a Meiji to come out...


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## UglyJoe

I think SLT's exclusive rights run out on this in a few months, so you might see a Meji version of this from WS or somewhere else in 6 months or so...


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## shankster

UglyJoe said:


> I think SLT's exclusive rights run out on this in a few months, so you might see a Meji version of this from WS or somewhere else in 6 months or so...



How does that work? Would they(WS) still be able to basically manufacture the exact same knife,with a different handle under a different name?


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## so_sleepy

shankster said:


> How does that work? Would they(WS) still be able to use the same steel etc?


 
The original Shun/Kramer Euro handled knives were provided exclusively to SLT, then, Shun/Kramer Meji knives were released through Williams Sonoma. 

Some of us are hoping that when SLT's exclusive runs out, Zwilling will announce a Meji version as well.


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## mpukas

Mattias504 said:


> I mean if you want a Kramer, how could you not be interested in this one. I'm probably never going to pay upwards of $1.5k for a knife so this is really my only option to try out something that is Kramer-esque. I might have to hold on though and wait for a Meiji to come out...


 
If I were to drop 1.5K on a knife I'd get that Gesshin Hide 270 Honyaki by Shiraki-san that John posted about LOOOOOOONG before I'd get a custom Kramer. The Z. Kramer seems to be an near-nuf replica of what Bob would make himself - what you're getting w/ a custom Kramer is knowing that Bob actually made it himself, and there are prolly some performance advatntages. But not as significant as say any of the beloved solid steel gyuto's from Yusuke, Konosuke, Tadatsuna, etc. compared to the Shiraki-san Honyaki.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

mpukas said:


> If I were to drop 1.5K on a knife I'd get that Gesshin Hide 270 Honyaki by Shiraki-san that John posted about LOOOOOOONG before I'd get a custom Kramer. The Z. Kramer seems to be an near-nuf replica of what Bob would make himself - what you're getting w/ a custom Kramer is knowing that Bob actually made it himself, and there are prolly some performance advatntages. But not as significant as say any of the beloved solid steel gyuto's from Yusuke, Konosuke, Tadatsuna, etc. compared to the Shiraki-san Honyaki.


 
Can't say I've ever heard of the brand.


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## JohnnyChance

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Can't say I've ever heard of the brand.


 
It is Jon's line of knives he has made for him in Japan.

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/gesshin-hide.html

There are a couple Gesshin lines, with different types of knives, stones, etc.


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## rockbox

mpukas said:


> If I were to drop 1.5K on a knife I'd get that Gesshin Hide 270 Honyaki by Shiraki-san that John posted about LOOOOOOONG before I'd get a custom Kramer. The Z. Kramer seems to be an near-nuf replica of what Bob would make himself - what you're getting w/ a custom Kramer is knowing that Bob actually made it himself, and there are prolly some performance advatntages. But not as significant as say any of the beloved solid steel gyuto's from Yusuke, Konosuke, Tadatsuna, etc. compared to the Shiraki-san Honyaki.



Whatever floats your boat. However, what is the reason why you think it performs better than the knife you mentioned or a Kramer.


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## mpukas

rockbox said:


> Whatever floats your boat.


yeah - exactly. I meant not to take anything away from anyone's decisions. 



rockbox said:


> However, what is the reason why you think it performs better than the knife you mentioned or a Kramer.


errrmm... honyaki's to me are the holy grail of kitchen knives - single steel, very hard, yet attributes of a clad knife for durability, takes and holds a wicked, keen edge like no other. But I've never even held one, let alone a real Kramer, so I'm just speculating... :scratchhead:


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## mr drinky

I got to feel the Z Kramer today, and I must say I kind of liked it. I had never held one before (custom or Z), and I didn't think the profile would suit me, but I liked the 8 inch. They hadn't gotten the 10-inch in yet.

The knife that they had to demo was not that sharp (though THEY thought the knives were sharp). I asked if they had been selling many, and she said the only ones buying them are the people who know a lot about knives. 

I also asked why Kramer wasn't doing a demo at the store in Minneapolis, and she said that they are only doing the demos in stores with kitchens. Which reminds me, if memory serves me correct Wild Boar should be attending the Kramer demo in Arlington VA on 12 June and Salty should be going in Glendale WI on 14 June. It will be interesting to hear what they say.

k.


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## JohnnyChance

mr drinky said:


> I got to feel the Z Kramer today, and I must say I kind of liked it. I had never held one before (custom or Z), and I didn't think the profile would suit me, but I liked the 8 inch. They hadn't gotten the 10-inch in yet.
> 
> The knife that they had to demo was not that sharp (though THEY thought the knives were sharp). I asked if they had been selling many, and she said the only ones buying them are the people who know a lot about knives.
> 
> I also asked why Kramer wasn't doing a demo at the store in Minneapolis, and she said that they are only doing the demos in stores with kitchens. Which reminds me, if memory serves me correct Wild Boar should be attending the Kramer demo in Arlington VA on 12 June and Salty should be going in Glendale WI on 14 June. It will be interesting to hear what they say.
> 
> k.


 

Haha, people THEY think know a lot about knives are buying them. They have Chosera stones at SLT (sold under Miyabi's name at a giant bump in price), you should have asked for some and sharpened their knives for them!

My local SLT has a kitchen, but Bob isn't coming to do one of his talks. Probably not a big enough city or area. Plus I assume he is going to Boston and New York.


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## Seb

I'm sorely tempted, but I needs to know...

How sharp can the steel get, will it get as sharp as good Japanese carbon?


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## Larrin

Seb said:


> I'm sorely tempted, but I needs to know...
> 
> How sharp can the steel get, will it get as sharp as good Japanese carbon?


52100 has about as fine as carbides can be in high carbon steel. Verhoeven showed that both 52100 and AEB-L can reach sub-micron radiuses at the edge.


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## Marko Tsourkan

Larrin said:


> 52100 has about as fine as carbides can be in high carbon steel. Verhoeven showed that both 52100 and AEB-L can reach sub-micron radiuses at the edge.


 
So the question here would be how to design a test to prove that steels like 52100, AEB-L and other steels with fine carbide structure, could get sharper and retain edge longer while also chip less than white or blue steels? In other words, to take out hype and myths surrounding Japanese knives and stick to the data while comparing Japanese steels to the steels like 52100. 

I have a feeling that 52100 will outperform either of Japanese steels hands down in all three tests - sharpness, edge retention, and edge stability (resistance to chipping) even at 62-63RC.

M

PS: Tomato test doesn't sound very scientific. There are laboratories that could test sharpness. Maybe Larrin could chime on this?


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## Seb

OY!!! :thumbsup::jumpy:


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## Larrin

Well the sharpness test could be copied from Verhoeven. Basically it requires a controlled sharpening followed by microscopy to determine the edge radius. The sharpness would be determined by the size of the edge radius. 

The only real controlled edge retention test is the CATRA. The only problem with the CATRA is it's essentially a sandpaper cutting test, though I have heard that you can use other media to run the test. One of the companies who has a CATRA is Spyderco, who are in my new hometown (Golden, CO).


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## rockbox

Could we approximate the Catra test by just applying force(weights) onto the blade and sawing back and force. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me. All these steels get sharper and hold it longer than I need it to. It most cases, I'm the limiting factor.


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## Marko Tsourkan

Larrin said:


> Well the sharpness test could be copied from Verhoeven. Basically it requires a controlled sharpening followed by microscopy to determine the edge radius. The sharpness would be determined by the size of the edge radius.
> 
> The only real controlled edge retention test is the CATRA. The only problem with the CATRA is it's essentially a sandpaper cutting test, though I have heard that you can use other media to run the test. One of the companies who has a CATRA is Spyderco, who are in my new hometown (Golden, CO).



I have seen a video for CATRA similar test done on paper for Nesmuk, results of which Nesmuk used for their bragging rights. A knife was cutting on the edge through stacked sheets of paper. I will try to find that video. 

M


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## karloevaristo

Marko Tsourkan said:


> I have seen a video for CATRA similar test done on paper for Nesmuk, results of which Nesmuk used for their bragging rights. A knife was cutting on the edge through stacked sheets of paper. I will try to find that video.
> 
> M


 
is it this one? [video=youtube;WpIRLMdWsiE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpIRLMdWsiE[/video]

if it is... how does this measure sharpness?

Karlo


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## JohnnyChance

I think that test is supposed to measure edge retention. It isn't the exact video Marko was talking about, but I am pretty sure it is a video of the same test.

Too bad all the Nesmuk knives fail the length and looks tests.


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## Larrin

The catra is used for edge retention, though it does measure sharpness to some degree.


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## Marko Tsourkan

JohnnyChance said:


> I think that test is supposed to measure edge retention. It isn't the exact video Marko was talking about, but I am pretty sure it is a video of the same test.
> 
> Too bad all the Nesmuk knives fail the length and looks tests.


 
Yes, I was referring to edge retention.


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## WildBoar

Well, this SLT had a full lineup of the Zwilling Kramer knives. Interestingly enough, Bob indicated we were the first sold-out class on his tour (and a SLT employee told him a little later there were enough people on the waiting list to easily fill another class). I have to say, Bob was extremely nice, quite humble, highly entertaining and a great public speaker.

My wife and I scored the two front-row seats directly in front of his work station, and I was sportin' a Japanese Knife Sharpening t-shirt, which did not go unnoticed 

Bob had two custom 10" damascus knives there to compare with the Zwillings (just to look at though, not for cutting). Sadly the class was not hands on, as I though the primary focus was on cutting techniques. Instead, it seemed to be veering towards an infomercial, but thankfully that was not the case. Bob spent a bit of time telling his history (working as a cook, then started a knife sharpening operation, followed by taking a knife forging class).

He talked about his love for 52100, and he gave a Sharpening 101 demo, including a King combo stone and the Zwilling combo (250/ 1000 (!)). He deburred/ honed on a piece of cardboard in between stones. He intentionally folded over an edge, then showed how to bring it back on a ceramic rod. Then he dulled the heck out of a knife, then showed how to sharpen on the combo stone. All the while he used paper cutting to illustrate the dullness/ sharpness. He talked about toothy edges, etc.

This was alien material to almost all of the attendees. Yet it opened many of their eyes, and had several people anxious to accumulate the starter stones, etc.

For fun, he cut up a few fruits and vegetables near the end, and I heard some people gasping in surprise as he sliced a carrot, etc., as they had never witnessed someone chopping/ slicing at a restaurant employee pace 

All of the Z.K. knifes were out in the main part of the store for people to try their hand at cutting. So people were lined up to attack some carrots and potatoes. I did not bother waiting to log any cutting board time.

I did handle the 10" Z.K. knife and compare it to one of the 'real' Kramers. Wow, when people mention thick spines at the handle they are not joking! But the distal taper is very good and the blade was fairly thin behind the edge. The balance on the 8" and 10" knives were good (a bit up the blade from the handle), but most of the shorter knives were quite a bit handle-heavy. And there were very useful, long areas of flat blade near the heel and at the tip. He showed how he built more belly into the santoku, so it could be used easier by those who like to rock chop.

Bob indicated the main reason for the high-heeled profile on his chef's knives is for knuckle clearance, especially after a knife has been sharpened a bunch of times. And his reasoning for his steel choice includes small carbides (for a steeper angle) and ease of sharpening. And he also talked about the ability of the steel as treated to bend and recover (in fact, it appears the 10" chef's knife can bend over 1/2 inch when the tip is loaded perpendicular to the blade).

All-in-all, the Z.K. knife was a very good copy of the customs.

At $100/ person to attend, there is no question the value of this class will be 'iffy' to some. In some aspects the sharpening part of it was a step back from what I have learned from Dave and the forums over the last 18 months. But to me it was worth the $ to meet him and talk with him a bit, and to be entertained by him. And frankly my wife leared a lot about knife abuse, and after the class said she now understands why some of her knife treatment habits draw protests from me . It's one thing when your husband respectfully requests you do not carve up a protein while it's on a dish or a platter, but it is quite another when the US's most famous kitchen knife maker stands up there and tells everyone it only takes one cut on a surface like that to roll over the edge. Thanks Bob -- that alone may help recoup the cost of the class 

Bob did mention knowing about Dave Martell, and how Dave is taking sharpening to new levels. He remembered getting Dave's invite to join the Board, but did not give it much thought at the time as he was not familiar with it and as a general rule avoids BBSs. But he did find it interesting that Bill Burke and Butch are here, along with quite a few other kitchen knife makers. I guess Bob spent some time with a couple of them over the past few days, as I believe he flew from Atlanta (Blade show) to give the class this afternoon.

And for those wondering about a Z.K. version with a Japanese-style handle, I did ask the question. Let's just say Bob is very, very diplomatic (to the point of not disparaging the Epicurian cutting boards SLT laid out for him to use, even though his 'go to' is an end-grain). But he did get a big smile when I posed the question, and indicated those who prefer Japanese handles will be very happy sometime soon 

That's all for now. Please post or shoot me a PM if you have any questions.


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## Mattias504

Damn, the more I hear about these, the more I really want to try one. We don't have an SLT down here in Nola. Booo


----------



## Salty dog

The class I signed up for was cancelled due to lack of interest.


----------



## WildBoar

Salty dog said:


> The class I signed up for was cancelled due to lack of interest.


That's a shame. He really was happy to have a sell-out yesterday, and was very surprised to hear they could have filled a second class. I thought it was odd at the time, as I figured he would be sold out everywhere. The last time he was around DC the class sold out the first day registration opened.

I'm guessing it's because we are all about consumption of luxury goods around here, because it was pretty clear yesterday many people in the audience had very little knife knowledge, and sometimes almost as little prep knowledge. It really drives home the fact that this BBS is definitely for a very narrow slice of the population!

On a side note, I was quite happy to see how down to earth Bob is. If there is any ego there, it is pretty well hidden. Of course he is now at a point where he can be a little bit less intense and less driven, but it did not sound like he had an easy road to get there. He fit right in with some of the other knife makers I have had the pleasure of meeting or just talking to on the phone (i.e., Del, Pierre, Butch, Dave M). Granted I have not had any business dealings with him, but he seems like a stand-up guy.


----------



## rockbox

Bob has been poor long enough to know how good he has it. He hasn't been raking in the dough until the last couple of years.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

+1


----------



## Kyle

I hadn't heard of these appearances so I just checked and all three Southern California dates are waitlist only at this point. I signed up, but I'm not holding my breath. The class does sound intriguing!


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

...but $100 though? Wow, that is not what I expected to see/hear. That's pricey, but then again I am one of those people that think that pro sports game prices are a waste of money.


----------



## El Pescador

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> ...but $100 though? Wow, that is not what I expected to see/hear. That's pricey, but then again I am one of those people that think that pro sports game prices are a waste of money.


 
Question of priorities...I was planning on going to Newport but am going to pass after reading the recap of the one in N Va. I don't think there is a lot to gain from the hundred bucks. 

Pesky


----------



## WildBoar

Well, you do get a copy of the SLT book "Knives Cooks Love" and a 10% off coupon good for one week. And Bob will autograph the book for you (even though he did not write it) 

So we have 2 SLT books and 2 10% off coupons :slaphead:

With the level most are at here on this BBS, there is not much to learn for the $100. To me, the value was in having my wife hear/ learn a bit of what I have picked up on the forums and from Dave M over the last 18 months, and the value of being entertained by Bob for 2-1/2 hours. He is a bit of a stand-up comedian, and a very entertaining speaker. So I left there thinking I have spent more money on less enjoyable things before, and feeling okay with the 'investment'.


----------



## Kyle

Went down to my local SLT (I didn't even know there was one near me until I had an interest in checking out the new Kramzer Zwilling). They only had a santoku and a couple utility knives left and an 8" chefs for a demo. The lady looked at me like I was NUTS when I started cutting and said it needed to be sharpened. However, it had a great feel to it and it was very well made. I'd love to play with a properly sharpened 10" version. That's all I really took from it, I felt awkward going through the motions with a middle aged mom hovering over my shoulder so I diced up a bell pepper and handed it back to them.


----------



## JohnnyChance

I got mine the other day. Haven't used it yet. But damn, soooo much different than the Shun version. Profile is better, handle is smaller and shaped better. The distal taper on this is really, really nice. One of the best I've seen, production or handmade knives included. 10" is 293 grams but feels lighter, balance is really nice. Spine measurements: 3.87mm at the bolster, 2.55mm 3" from bolster, 1.88mm 4" from tip, 0.68mm 1" from tip. The tip itself measured 0.18mm. The tip is really really thin. Not quite as thin as Mattrud's real kramer, but his looks like garotte wire it is so thin. 61.4mm tall at the heel. Had some residual burr, stropped on some hard felt and now it is hair popping.

And yes, the Meiji handles are coming. The box (which is also the biggest knife box ever) even says "EuroLine" on it. 

Ill get some pictures up soon. What is vinegar treatment for?


----------



## mattrud

very cool john, can not wait to hear your thoughts. I gotta use mine more. still in babying stage.


----------



## Josh

Maybe its a Canadian thing, but what's SLT?


----------



## oivind_dahle

Its a chain of stores in US

http://www.surlatable.com/

SurLaTable = SLT


----------



## JohnnyChance

10" Kramer Zwilling vs. 8" Shun Kramer. Shun weighs 10 grams more than the Zwilling.






Shun handle is longer, fatter, and taller. Zwilling one generally feels better and is shaped better.





Zwilling choil. Zwilling spine and choil are rounded more than the Shun, and polished.





Usually I get can get pretty good spine shots without too much difficulty. Camera had a hard time focusing on the tip though.





Like I said before, very very good taper. It is constantly tapering, it doesnt just taper .5mm over the first 2/3rd of the blade, and then taper dramatically to the tip. Near constant taper the entire length, nearly down to nothing. The tip is actually ~1mm from the bottom of this photo.





Shun looks like a real fatty compared to the Zwilling.










This is a completely different knife than the Shun. If you hated the Shun, and for good reason, check this one out. Completely different animal, a lot of the things we love and look for in our knives. Zwilling is king now, in the big manufacturer game. Between this and their Miyabi stuff, they are so far ahead of Wustof, Shun, Global, etc.


----------



## mattrud

yea thats a kramer tapered tip for sure. I have never seen someone take a knife so thin towards the tip.


----------



## mattrud

sorry for the double post but that does look very nice. Everything is polished, nice taper, they seemed to have done a very nice job with the recreations.


----------



## Aphex

Looks like this could be a fantastic all rounder. A bit thicker at the choil for tougher work and with a skinny tip for the fine detail stuff, great taper. 

How thin is it behind the edge? If it's edge is as thin as the tip, i would be super impressed.

This knife has been a huge and unexpected suprise. I thought it would be a real stinker.


----------



## tk59

Aphex said:


> Looks like this could be a fantastic all rounder. A bit thicker at the choil for tougher work and with a skinny tip for the fine detail stuff, great taper.
> 
> How thin is it behind the edge? If it's edge is as thin as the tip, i would be super impressed.
> 
> This knife has been a huge and unexpected suprise. I thought it would be a real stinker.


 
+1


----------



## rockbox

I exchanged my shun kramer for one. It should be at the house by the time I get back from india. Should I put a mirror or mustard finish on it? I wish I could create a poll.


----------



## JohnnyChance

I did my "how far behind the edge is it 1mm thick" test to this. Didn't have time to trace it out, but at the heel it is about 1mm thick 10mm behind the edge. Along with the distal taper, that "1mm line" gets higher and higher as you go down the blade, until it meets the spine 43mm from the tip!

That was kinda hard to describe, so if it makes no sense, I will try to post some pictures tonight.


----------



## JohnnyChance

rockbox said:


> I exchanged my shun kramer for one. It should be at the house by the time I get back from india. Should I put a mirror or mustard finish on it? I wish I could create a poll.


 
Gotta love the SLT return policy, right?


----------



## rockbox

This is the first time I've used it and I felt a little guilty doing it, but I will feel better when I get the new knife.


----------



## JohnnyChance

Don't feel guilty. This is the knife you were expecting when you bought the Shun.


----------



## Avishar

rockbox said:


> This is the first time I've used it and I felt a little guilty doing it, but I will feel better when I get the new knife.


 
Don't feel guilty, the return policy is open for a reason  People used to return knives that were broke in half, and plates that were shattered. We even had a customer return a Jura Z5 every year to get a brand new one! The knife goes back to the manufacturer most of the time and you usually end up paying a premium price at the stores to cover the possibility of these things happening


----------



## EdipisReks

i might have to get one of these, it does look nice.


----------



## tk59

JohnnyChance said:


> I did my "how far behind the edge is it 1mm thick" test to this. Didn't have time to trace it out, but at the heel it is about 1mm thick 10mm behind the edge. Along with the distal taper, that "1mm line" gets higher and higher as you go down the blade, until it meets the spine 43mm from the tip!
> 
> That was kinda hard to describe, so if it makes no sense, I will try to post some pictures tonight.


That's awesome. It oughta cut crazy good.

Rock: my vote is mirror. once you put a deep patina on it, you won't want to bring it back (maybe).


----------



## Mattias504

EdipisReks said:


> i might have to get one of these, it does look nice.



+1

But I think I'll wait around for the Meiji handle.


----------



## deanb

I've had this knife for 19 days now and I honestly can't tell the difference in performance from my real Kramer. We all know that Bob forges his knives. Does Zwilling forge their Kramers? Does it really make a difference or is it all in the heat treatment?


----------



## EdipisReks

Mattias504 said:


> +1
> 
> But I think I'll wait around for the Meiji handle.


 
that's kind of what i'm thinking, too. i have the shig and the mizuno and the konosuke to keep me busy until then.


----------



## SpikeC

Given the sophisticated controls at the factories that make the steel, as soon a someone starts hammering and heating the metal its properties have to start to decline. Either that or the steel makers are incompetent buffoons.


----------



## deanb

SpikeC said:


> Given the sophisticated controls at the factories that make the steel, as soon a someone starts hammering and heating the metal its properties have to start to decline. Either that or the steel makers are incompetent buffoons.


 
Then how does Bob Kramer come up with what he does?


----------



## SpikeC

Are you saying that the Kramer knife has better steel than the Zwilling versions?


----------



## Marko Tsourkan

SpikeC said:


> Are you saying that the Kramer knife has better steel than the Zwilling versions?


 
The real Kramer is likely to have a much better heat treatment but 52100 equivalent steel (steel goes under a different name in Japan). I thin I have read on on of Bob's auctions that heat treating his bladed takes 7 or 8 hours each.

M


----------



## kalaeb

How are these knives comming along with patina and sharpening.

dean-does the replica sharpen the same as the original?

Just curious...


----------



## Chef Niloc

So who's going to be the first one to send one to Dave to "finish" for them? It would be cool to see if Dave can grind a better Kramer then Bob?


----------



## JohnnyChance

Chef Niloc said:


> So who's going to be the first one to send one to Dave to "finish" for them? It would be cool to see if Dave can grind a better Kramer then Bob?



I was planning on doing this, but so far I haven't felt the need. It certainly isn't a fatty in need of a tune up like an addict. The tip is so thin, any more grinding and it will quickly become a 9" chefs knife.


----------



## Chef Niloc

I find it does not have the food release of the real deal, profile may be the same but nothing beats that Kramer convex grind.


----------



## deanb

kalaeb said:


> How are these knives comming along with patina and sharpening.
> 
> dean-does the replica sharpen the same as the original?
> 
> Just curious...


 
I forced a patina with vinegar so I don't know how a natural patina would be doing. I can't tell the difference in sharpening, They're both very easy to sharpen. That's why I asked the question about forging and heat treatment.


----------



## Knifefan

Marko Tsourkan said:


> The real Kramer is likely to have a much better heat treatment but 52100 equivalent steel (steel goes under a different name in Japan). I thin I have read on on of Bob's auctions that heat treating his bladed takes 7 or 8 hours each.
> 
> M


 
I would give Henckels the benefit of doubt. They claim to use real 52100. And if the knife performs on similar level than the original, why should the heat treatment be much worse?


----------



## Darkhoek

Given that Henkels is using the same highly standardised PM steel and their very good facilities to harden and temper the steel to the exact specifications of the steel manufacturer, I cannot see why the blade of the production knife should be lower quality than the hand made version. Two or ten or twenty hours of tempering... i don't know. I would rather trust the specs from the company that designed and made the steel for a specific task together with the hardening and tempering instructions to get the very best out of their own product. F&F on the knife looks pretty decent in comparison with the real thing as well. The profile sure is an aquired taste, but I find myself slowly growing into wanting one.

DarKHoeK


----------



## rockbox

I can only speculate since there is no way of knowing unless one of you guys asks Bob when you go to his workshop, but I doubt Zwilling does the same exact heat treat that Bob does. Zwilling probably does not triple quench their blades and they probably use air to quench versus oil. I don't know how much this would effect the performance of the blade but since DeanB can't tell the difference, I would say its pretty close. If its within 5 percent of the performance, then I doubt anyone other than the most discriminating users like Salty, TK or Niloc could tell the difference.


----------



## JohnnyChance

Patina. Duck breast, cucumber, hollandaise, soppressata.


























Mine even has some beloved wabi-sabi. Got nicked on a belt me thinks.






The pictures are a bit deceiving. The patina is fairly light, and the knife needs to be turned under light to catch the blues and other colors. I think over time this will build to a very even, subtle patina that has great character when inspected closely.


----------



## kalaeb

Nice! Thanks for the pics.


----------



## JohnnyChance

Used it at work today. Butchered some raw duck breast, cleaned some boneless short ribs, sliced mid rare duck, cut some veg: asparagus, snap peas, maybe some other stuff. Cut up some pancetta. I think that's all.

Normally I would not butcher duck breast or clean short ribs with a gyuto. But I wanted to help the patina along, and the tip is so thin it is great for silver skin. The thin tip, great grind, thinness behind the edge, and heel height make this a very versatile gyuto. It's just a great all around cutter.


----------



## jwpark

Johnny, how the edge hold up?


----------



## JohnnyChance

It held up pretty well. I used it a bit at home, then I stropped it on textured leather loaded 2 micron compound and a felt pad, edge felt better than OOTB. At work I butchered the case of duck breast, case of boneless short ribs, veg, pancetta. Stropped again, same setup, and used it again at work yesterday. Didn't have much to do though. Edge still cuts paper very easily, shaves a bit. Going to sharpen it tonight for the first time.


----------



## JohnnyChance

Just sharpened it now actually. Rika 5k and then Gesshin 5k. Felt great like carbons do. Stropped on felt to deburr, stropped on plain leather to finish. Silently cuts paper and shaves really well. Fingers do not want to move at all in either direction on the 3 finger test. Edge has lots of bite, but doesn't grab the cutting board too much. Going grocery shopping now, maybe I get some toms and do a vid.

I also like how the brass on the bolsters and pins patinas as well. Was sort of planning on getting this rehandled, but I would have to make sure similar brass pins could be used to match the bolster.

Also, there must have been some moisture in my bag, got a few rust spots on it. BKF took off most of them, but you can still see em. What else should I use to help remove em?

I wish the Kramer and Zwilling logos were stamped or etched, they are just printed on, and eventually will be lost if you keep adding and removing patina. Mine have faded some already.


----------



## EdipisReks

try flitz to remove the rust.


----------



## DwarvenChef

I just skimmed this thread and I'm not sure what steel was used on these knives, Was it 52100?


----------



## so_sleepy

DwarvenChef said:


> I just skimmed this thread and I'm not sure what steel was used on these knives, Was it 52100?


 
Correct, 52100


----------



## deanb

I've had this knife for a month now and I still love it. I am not a pro, just a home cook, but I do cook a lot. I took the knife to the stones the day after it arrived and have not had to since. Just an occasional touch up with a leather strop loaded with CrO2 and I'm good to go. Compared to my real 52100 Kramer? Can't tell the difference. At this price ($350) I think it's a steal.


----------



## Noodle Soup

I bought the 10-inch version at the SLT in Portland, OR today. Lighter and thinner than I expected. The sales clerk there said they were already getting returns from people that were surprised that the bright, shinny blade didn't stay shinny when they used it. The test knife at the store had a very nice, flat gray patina but somebody must be taking special care of it that it doesn't have plain old rust spots in that environment.


----------



## JohnnyChance

deanb said:


> I've had this knife for a month now and I still love it. I am not a pro, just a home cook, but I do cook a lot. I took the knife to the stones the day after it arrived and have not had to since. Just an occasional touch up with a leather strop loaded with CrO2 and I'm good to go. Compared to my real 52100 Kramer? Can't tell the difference. At this price ($350) I think it's a steal.


 
I would say the edge retention isn't as good as say Devin ITK AEB-L or some custom made W2 (not that that is really a fair comparison), but it is better than some basic carbons I have used, and it does take an amazing edge. And yes, the grind is really, really great. Even though it is a Zwilling, it should be in contention for any carbon gyuto search in the mid $300 price range. At least you can try and and easily return it if it doesn't suit you!


----------



## BertMor

I don't know, I tried this knife in the store and didn't love it. First I thought the handle stunk and was very uncomfortable. And I didn't like the balance. Although it balanced out just in front of the bolster, it felt seriously handle heavy. I can't comment on the edge because it was a demo knife and who knows how long it was out there. It wasn't dull but it needed a touch up. Geometry seemed ok but it definitely is a Euro grind, not a Japanese.

I like to contrast this with my Butch gyuto. Lighter and thinner, with an awesome distal taper.

I guess I have just gotten used to the Japanese idiom of knives with the wa handle

YMMV


----------



## mmingio2

Ok, I have to try it. With a local SLT there's no risk!


----------



## mateo

I went to a local SLT the other day and gave it a work out on carrots, lemons, some bell peppers... I don't care for it, I didn't think I would, too much curve for my taste. It is a great looking knife though, but it felt... cheap? Maybe I'm not used to this style of blade, but it just didn't feel quite right.


----------



## bprescot

Noodle Soup said:


> The sales clerk there said they were already getting returns from people that were surprised that the bright, shinny blade didn't stay shinny when they used it.



So, uh, what does SLT do with these? Is there a secondary market out there, with a nice little discount, say?


----------



## UglyJoe

From what I've heard they toss them. Literally. In the dumpster. Out back.


----------



## JohnnyChance

UglyJoe said:


> From what I've heard they toss them. Literally. In the dumpster. Out back.


 
Except for the ceramic knives, they go back to the manufacturer.


----------



## TamanegiKin

UglyJoe said:


> From what I've heard they toss them. Literally. In the dumpster. Out back.


 
Guess I'm goin' dumpster diving hah.

I gave one a whirl here in Dallas the other day,
I liked it although it feels totally foreign as all my knives
are j-knives. The blade was flat for about half the 
total length which was nice but when it curves up it goes 
quite high. I'd like to have one, I'm sure I'd get used to the profile.
In fact, if I wasn't set on the mizuno being my next gyuto I 
would have picked the zwilling up.


----------



## bprescot

UglyJoe said:


> From what I've heard they toss them. Literally. In the dumpster. Out back.



Holy CRAP! I really hope you're joking or you're going to get this entire forum staking out their local SLTs. If only I had an SLT in my area, I'd be tempted to try it myself!


----------



## JohnnyChance

Some stuff that gets returned does get destroyed, but not knives. Electronics, knives, and some other things get shipped back to the manufacturer on returns.


----------



## jaybett

Interesting to see the different perspectives. 

When something gets as much acclaim/hype, as Kramer knives, the reality tends to be disappointing. I went into SLT, Not expecting much, I figured I'd only be in the store 5-10 minutes. Instead the more I used it, the more impressed I became. 

Picking up the knife, I was immediately struck by the weight. This was the 10 inch version with a considerable heel, which looks like it should have some heft, but is surprisingly light. 

Next was the handle, I've got wa-handled knives, and a few custom knives. The Kramer handle was very comfortable and felt natural in the hand. 

I grabbed a piece of turnip, the first few cuts, the Kramer wedged. I tried the next cuts closer to the tip and the Kramer glided easily through the turnip. The slices were easily diced. I fished out a piece of carrot about 3-4 inches long and cut it in half, cut those pieces and half, etc, with no wedging. I got a quarter of a waxy potato, to check out the blades stickiness. A few pieces did stick, but nothing conclusive. A whole russet would have been a better test. 

The Kramer edge while angled is flat until it sweeps up dramatically to the point. Eyeballing it, I'd say that at least 7 inches of the edge are flat. I don't think it would be unreasonable to characterize the Kramer as a nakiri with a tip. My hunch is that this is the reason why people who are use to gyutos find the Kramer odd. Since the cleaver is my main knife, the Kramer feels right. 

Jay


----------



## kalaeb

mateo said:


> It is a great looking knife though, but it felt... cheap? Maybe I'm not used to this style of blade, but it just didn't feel quite right.



The Kramer style is definately not for everyone, but for me the Henckels version certainly did not feel cheap. I felt the opposite. I have been thinking about getting one of these, but don't know if I will be able to adapt to the blade. I would love to take one for a drive for a week to see if it was worth it. I wonder if SLT will let me test drive a return to see if I can purchase a new one.


----------



## Kyle

kalaeb said:


> The Kramer style is definately not for everyone, but for me the Henckels version certainly did not feel cheap. I felt the opposite. I have been thinking about getting one of these, but don't know if I will be able to adapt to the blade. I would love to take one for a drive for a week to see if it was worth it. I wonder if SLT will let me test drive a return to see if I can purchase a new one.


 
I'm pretty sure SLT's return policy is extremely generous and would allow you to return for a full refund if you're not satisfied.


----------



## UglyJoe

TamanegiKin said:


> Guess I'm goin' dumpster diving hah.
> 
> I gave one a whirl here in Dallas the other day,
> I liked it although it feels totally foreign as all my knives
> are j-knives. The blade was flat for about half the
> total length which was nice but when it curves up it goes
> quite high. I'd like to have one, I'm sure I'd get used to the profile.
> In fact, if I wasn't set on the mizuno being my next gyuto I
> would have picked the zwilling up.


 
GREAT choice on the Mizuno. Make sure and get the clad one, not the solid version. The clad is the actual Mizuno knife. I'm pretty sure the other is a rebrand.


----------



## EdipisReks

UglyJoe said:


> GREAT choice on the Mizuno. Make sure and get the clad one, not the solid version. The clad is the actual Mizuno knife. I'm pretty sure the other is a rebrand.


 
that's my understand as well. love my Mizuno blue.


----------



## TamanegiKin

UglyJoe said:


> GREAT choice on the Mizuno. Make sure and get the clad one, not the solid version. The clad is the actual Mizuno knife. I'm pretty sure the other is a rebrand.


 
Thanks for the heads up! I wasn't aware 
that there were solid versions. I'll make sure 
to request the clad version from Koki. Sadly, I gotta 
sacrifice one of my knives before ordering the Mizuno.


----------



## jaybett

UglyJoe said:


> GREAT choice on the Mizuno. Make sure and get the clad one, not the solid version. The clad is the actual Mizuno knife. I'm pretty sure the other is a rebrand.


 
Is there another Blue #2 Gyuto besides the clad one? The solid version is stainless. 



TamanegiKin said:


> I gotta sacrifice one of my knives before ordering the Mizuno.


 
Heresy! True knife nuts do not sacrifice knives, we increase the limit of our credit cards. 

If I was working in a restaurant and wanted a all mighty/all purpose gyuto for the bag, I'd probably get the Mizuno. I have the cleaver and the steels edge retention is very good. 

Jay


----------



## TamanegiKin

jaybett said:


> Is there another Blue #2 Gyuto besides the clad one? The solid version is stainless.
> 
> 
> 
> Heresy! True knife nuts do not sacrifice knives, we increase the limit of our credit cards.
> 
> If I was working in a restaurant and wanted a all mighty/all purpose gyuto for the bag, I'd probably get the Mizuno. I have the cleaver and the steels edge retention is very good.
> 
> Jay



Bah! Wish I didn't have to but I just got my gal a ring so my bank is bust.
Plus the knife I'm gonna get rid of deserves a better home, she's a drawer queen over here.


----------



## kalaeb

TamanegiKin said:


> Bah! Wish I didn't have to but I just got my gal a ring so my bank is bust.
> Plus the knife I'm gonna get rid of deserves a better home, she's a drawer queen over here.



What are you getting rid of? 

Don't feel too bad, I sold my motocycle for my wifes ring.


----------



## TamanegiKin

kalaeb said:


> What are you getting rid of?
> 
> Don't feel too bad, I sold my motocycle for my wifes ring.



Now that's sacrifice! She was probably relieved to see the bike gone.
Awhile back I wanted to put together an old Honda cb into a cafe racer.
My gal wasn't too fond of the idea.
I'm gonna get rid of my suisin gin-momiji funayuki.
It should cover some of the cost of the Mizuno.
Wish I could find more use for it but really I've just stared at it lol.


----------



## EdipisReks

jaybett said:


> Is there another Blue #2 Gyuto besides the clad one? The solid version is stainless.



correct.



> Heresy! True knife nuts do not sacrifice knives, we increase the limit of our credit cards.



that's the ideal. unfortunately, SWMBO would be using one of my ever so keen knives on my testicles, if that's what i did.


----------



## chazmtb

I'm hoping that a Meiji handled one will show up soon.


----------



## WildBoar

chazmtb said:


> I'm hoping that a Meiji handled one will show up soon.


When I posed that question to Mr. K., he smiled and said people interested in that style would have something to be happy about very soon.


----------



## Mattias504

Hopefully very soon isn't too long. This is a guy with a 3 year waiting list..


----------



## mmingio2

I received my 10" Z. Kramer about a week ago and have used it almost nightly. I am a home cook and have never 'reveiwed' a knife here before. My usual goto knife is my Hattori FH 240 gyuto that I love, so that is my best reference point.

The Kramer couldn't be more different. Where the Hattori is elegant, the Kramer is bullish (not a crititcism). If the Hattori is Jerry Rice (fast, thin, nimble), the Kramer is Antonio Gates (huge, strong, agile). Both are fast and at the top of their games. 

I love the Kramer handle...fits great in my medium-large hand and I usually prefer a western. The choil and spine are also among the most comfortable I've 'pinched'. The OOTB edge is very, very good (shaves and push cuts easily) and I've not sharpened it yet. Naked leather and balsa stropping have kept it as sharp as my edge pro Chosera 10k finished edges.

The geometry took some getting used to. Initially I thought I would return it to SLT but grew to like it over the week. Huge flat portion was very effective for most tasks. It's the tallest blade I've worked with but still very precise. 

Two complaints: 1. There is a spot on the flat edge near the heel that rises off of the board about 0.5mm and it's about 1.5 cm long. Doesn't affect performance but annoying to look at. 2. I am still having trouble walking the board with this knife. Not sure if it's the length of the flat edge or the height of the blade at the heel. My Hattori will fly across the board and has, for me, near perfect geometry. However, it's handle now feels a bit too small. 

Lastly, this is my first carbon knife. I cannot believe how much I love this steel. Crazy sharp and retains an edge like no one's business. I plowed through a chicken, including splitting the breastbone, broke down a pineapple, followed by another few pounds of tough-skinned veg and I could not detect a decrease in edge performance.

Overall, I really like the knife. It makes my Hattori look like a suji so I guess I don't need one of those now. Natural patina is setting in and making me even more endeared to this knife. My amature $.02.

-Matt


----------



## AMP01

Great write up! I too have a Hattori FH gyuto and love the geometry. I might just have to give this Kramer a try.

Cheers,
Andrew


----------



## mmingio2

Can anyone recommend a sheath/saya for this monster?


----------



## JohnnyChance

mmingio2 said:


> Can anyone recommend a sheath/saya for this monster?


 
I made one out of a chix towel and some painter's tape, but as far as I know there is no generic saya that will come close to fitting this thing. The heel height is the deal breaker. Edge guard would probably be the only thing that could work.


----------



## mmingio2

That's what I'm doing now (edge gaurd). Works but the asthetics are unappealing.



JohnnyChance said:


> I made one out of a chix towel and some painter's tape, but as far as I know there is no generic saya that will come close to fitting this thing. The heel height is the deal breaker. Edge guard would probably be the only thing that could work.


----------



## Noodle Soup

I've use mine for about a week now too. While the blade is very wide, it much thinner and lighter than I expected. Wouldn't want to drop this one point first on the floor. 

I haven't cut anything but vegetables and boneless meat but the knife has lost its factory edge. There is an area about 3-inches long a few inches back from the point that is totally light reflecting dull. After all the fanfare I kind of thought it would do a little better than that. For what it is worth, all cutting was on an American made bamboo block. 

Time to try resharpening.


----------



## Mattias504

You should of sharpened it when you first got it. I wouldn't be worried about losing a factory edge.


----------



## Noodle Soup

I like to start with the factory edge when I'm evaluating a new knife as that is what 99% of users will do. And most of them expect the knife to stay working sharp for the next 6 months or so. The lady in SLT told the people in front of me that a good knife only needs to be "sharpened" twice a year but that it should be steeled before every use. The knife seemed reasonably sharp out of the box, sliced tomatoes paper thin with ease etc. 

Anyway, now I will resharpen it and see if that makes a difference.


----------



## Knifefan

Noodle Soup said:


> I like to start with the factory edge when I'm evaluating a new knife as that is what 99% of users will do. And most of them expect the knife to stay working sharp for the next 6 months or so. The lady in SLT told the people in front of me that a good knife only needs to be "sharpened" twice a year but that it should be steeled before every use. The knife seemed reasonably sharp out of the box, sliced tomatoes paper thin with ease etc.
> 
> Anyway, now I will resharpen it and see if that makes a difference.



I wouldn't know of any knife with a factory edge that stays working sharp for 6 months, working sharp as defined by the guys hanging around in the forums. You will need to steel / strop quite soon after using. Especially if you have a thin edge and cut on a bamboo board.

Have you tried to steel / strop or is the edge so worn out that it needs to be sharpened from scratch?

In general I wouldn't worry about edge retention of the BK Z. At the end it's 52100 at HRC 60-61.


----------



## Noodle Soup

I'm not saying I expect a knife to hold a "working edge" for 6 months, I just know the average person walking into SLT and buying a relatively high price piece of cutlery thinks he/she is doing it so they won't have to touch the edge but once in every blue moon. And then they will send it out to an "expert." After all, many cook books tell them that is what they are supposed to do. Trust me, my knives see a stone a LOT oftener than that and I have a small fortune in waterstones sitting around to prove it. 

Working sharp means radically different things to different people. I was once at a knife show and custom knifemaker now past on, handed me a paring knife he had made and told me his wife had been using it for two years without resharpening. To me, it was about as dull as a knife could get but to her is was still plenty "working sharp." 

As for the 52100 steel, that doesn't mean much if it wasn't heat treated correctly. 52100 is a steel mostly used by the ABS crowd in the US so I have no idea what the Japanese can do with it. But I bought the knife to find out, if you get my drift.


----------



## JohnnyChance

The edge retention isn't great on these, but it is pretty cook. A good sharpening job for a home cook should last awhile, but in the kitchen at work mine lasts a couple of days.


----------



## Noodle Soup

That sounds about right. I always use that first factory edge way beyond what I normally accept on any knife I have been sharpening myself just as an experiment.


----------



## JohnnyChance

The out of the box edge is pretty good, but it's stability is not that good. After your sharpening, it should get a bit sharper and hold it a lot longer.


----------



## Knifefan

Noodle Soup said:


> As for the 52100 steel, that doesn't mean much if it wasn't heat treated correctly. 52100 is a steel mostly used by the ABS crowd in the US so I have no idea what the Japanese can do with it. But I bought the knife to find out, if you get my drift.



If 52100 is hardened to HRC 61, it should hold a decent edge. Saying that, 52100 is not the greatest steel for edge retention. It's main benefit is it's fine grain structure, which makes it very easy to sharpen. Even Bob's originals aren't built to have the longest edge retention.


----------



## deanb

Knifefan said:


> If 52100 is hardened to HRC 61, it should hold a decent edge. Saying that, 52100 is not the greatest steel for edge retention. It's main benefit is it's fine grain structure, which makes it very easy to sharpen. Even Bob's originals aren't built to have the longest edge retention.


 
I think that fine grain structure also allows for a very, very fine edge. It also allows one to easily maintain the edge by stropping on a loaded strop. At least that's been my experience.


----------



## EdipisReks

deanb said:


> I think that fine grain structure also allows for a very, very fine edge. It also allows one to easily maintain the edge by stropping on a loaded strop. At least that's been my experience.


 
i haven't used 51200, but that is my experience with white #2 and the steel Shigefusa uses (i've found that blue #2 needs to hit the polishing stone a bit more often).


----------



## JohnnyChance

Knifefan said:


> Saying that, 52100 is not the greatest steel for edge retention.


 
I think Bill Burke would argue with you on that one.


----------



## mmingio2

Well, I've spent 2 weeks with the knife now and have come to the conclusion that the geometry and balance are just not right for me. The heel is just too tall and the knife feels blade heavy. I love the steel...admittedly my first carbon experience--but this is the sweetest stuff I've ever sharpened. My favorite knife remains my Hattori FH 240 gyuto. The geometry and balance are impeccable. It's not flashy but just feels 'right' in my hand. 

So, I am returning the Kramer to SLT. But I now have to have a good carbon knife. What knife is going to feel like my Hattori but sharpen like the Kramer?

I would like a 240-270 length carbon knife with a premium placed on balance and geometry. I wouldn't mind something thinner than the Hattori, if only to broaden my experience with a wide range of knife styles. Looking to spend no more than $300-350.

TIA for the advice.


Cheers-Matt


----------



## EdipisReks

wa or yo handled?


----------



## mmingio2

I've never tried a wa-knife (ridiculous, I know) so western is the safe choice for me. Maybe I should try a wa? I cook for my family almost every night so comfort is a premium.


----------



## UglyJoe

If you don't like blade heavy (and sounds like you don't) then wa is not for you...


----------



## mmingio2

Thanks. You are correct.



UglyJoe said:


> If you don't like blade heavy (and sounds like you don't) then wa is not for you...


----------



## mmingio2

Yo.



EdipisReks said:


> wa or yo handled?


----------



## EdipisReks

i would try a wa. i have a 240 FH and i like it, but you should try wa. a konosuke, maybe.


----------



## obtuse

Sakai yusuke carbon available from blue way Japan on eBay. The OEM is ashi hamono, I believe. You can expect an excellent grind.


----------



## Noodle Soup

This a good example of personal preferences. I would call my Kramer handle heavy rather than blade heavy. I also don't really see anything wrong with the edge geometry for an all round chef knife. To me the balance makes it very easy to use the point for fine tasks just as a handle heavy fighting knife is better for point work. It is certainly wider than the average chef knife but that hasn't caused any problems. I'm just not sure the steel is offering anything special in edge holding abilities for the price. While I'm willing to pay a little more to allow Kramer to get his cut there is a limit to how much I think that star status is worth.


----------



## JohnnyChance

Noodle Soup said:


> This a good example of personal preferences. I would call my Kramer handle heavy rather than blade heavy. I also don't really see anything wrong with the edge geometry for an all round chef knife. To me the balance makes it very easy to use the point for fine tasks just as a handle heavy fighting knife is better for point work. It is certainly wider than the average chef knife but that hasn't caused any problems. I'm just not sure the steel is offering anything special in edge holding abilities for the price. While I'm willing to pay a little more to allow Kramer to get his cut there is a limit to how much I think that star status is worth.


 
This is pretty dead on. Edge retention isn't great, but it does get very sharp, feels good on the stones. It is wider than most but doesn't feel like a giant (to me). It acts more nimble than it's size indicates. And that is due to the very thin tip, which like Noodle Soup said, makes it very versatile, a great all around chefs knife. 

I never viewed handle heavy or blade heavy as a subjective thing. It is either one or the other. You can certainly _prefer_ one or the other, but this knife balances just in front of the bolster. Even when using a hammer grip it isn't blade heavy. What is the balance point on the Hattori FH? Handle heavy knives give much poorer feedback for me, like the tip is floating out in front the blade and I can't be sure of it's location. Being on the blade heavy side also seems to help do some of the work.


----------



## Knifefan

Since it's been mentioned a few times that the edge retention isn't great, it would be interesting to compare the edge retention with a Kramer original. Anyone who has that direct comparison?


----------



## WildBoar

The SLT K-Z gyutos I handled were all, well, handle-heavy. When a wa or hybrid version comes out, I suspect the balance point will move more down the blade and be more in line with what I prefer.


----------



## mpukas

mmingio2 said:


> I would like a 240-270 length carbon knife with a premium placed on balance and geometry. I wouldn't mind something thinner than the Hattori, if only to broaden my experience with a wide range of knife styles. Looking to spend no more than $300-350.



+1 on the Sakai Yusuke 240 yo-gyuto f/ Blue Way Japan. Finding a solid steel carbon knife w/ a western handle is a bit challenging - not many options. 

I have the 270 yo version and love it! I also have a 270 FH, and I actually prefer the Yusuke knife to it, and I LOVE the FH. Great value, excellent quality. Can get crazy sharp and holds an edge quite well. Doesn't keep that off-the-stones shaving sharp edge for long, but keeps an edge that's very acceptable for kitchen work and touches up nicely w/ a MAC ceramic stick if I'm in a hurry or better yet a few passes on some loaded strops.


----------



## deanb

Knifefan said:


> Since it's been mentioned a few times that the edge retention isn't great, it would be interesting to compare the edge retention with a Kramer original. Anyone who has that direct comparison?


 
I have both and I can't tell the difference in edge retention. Also, in regards to balance, both knives balance at the front of the bolster. For a pinch grip this is neither blade heavy nor handle heavy. It's exactly where you want the balance point. I think that the balance point should be directly under the knuckle of your index finger.


----------



## JohnnyChance

mmingio2 said:


> I would like a 240-270 length carbon knife with a premium placed on balance and geometry. I wouldn't mind something thinner than the Hattori, if only to broaden my experience with a wide range of knife styles. Looking to spend no more than $300-350.



DT ITK in 52100? Masamoto KS? Neither is super thin, if you want that then I guess Konosuke is the preferred standard. 

I have a Sakai Gyuto from bluewayjapan and even at almost double the price I would rather have the Kramer. The Sakai white steel isn't nearly as fun as the 52100 of the Kramer, edge retention is about the same, and reactivity is about 20x worse. The white might get a tad sharper, but doesn't keep it.

I am not sure what improvements geometry wise you are looking for over the Kramer. It could use a bit more convexing to reduce sticking a tad more, but I have no problems with wedging or major sticking. Profile I can see how you might prefer something different. A shorter heel and less bull nosed tip would improve it for me.

EDIT: It terms of the edge retention issue, it isn't spectacular, but it isn't a deal breaker either. It strops and hones well and certainly for home users it is more than adequate. But it could be a bit better. The edge stability/toughness is great though. I have had no issues with chipping, even when butchering whole birds, fish, and hitting olive pits accidentally.


----------



## UglyJoe

I like those suggestions, but he's not looking for a wa handle knife... he likes a knife that's balanced farther back and is more handle heavy. Some of the Gesshin knives would probably fit the bill for thinner than the Hattori but still western and balanced correctly.


----------



## EdipisReks

UglyJoe said:


> I like those suggestions, but he's not looking for a wa handle knife... he likes a knife that's balanced farther back and is more handle heavy.


 
he has no real way of knowing that until he tries a wa knife. i thought the same thing, until i bought a wa knife.


----------



## JohnnyChance

Oh right, I forgot he didn't want wa. Don't the 52100 ITKs come in western handles sometimes?


----------



## Eamon Burke

What the hell is this thread about?! Are there seriously 19 pages of talk about the Kramer branded knife from Henckels?


----------



## jaybett

johndoughy said:


> What the hell is this thread about?! Are there seriously 19 pages of talk about the Kramer branded knife from Henckels?



Are you surprised to find a thread about a knife, on a knife forum?

Jay


----------



## EdipisReks

this is a knife forum? no wonder there isn't much talk about ponies!


----------



## obtuse

I prefer western handles as well... not for any particular reason. I have knives both yo and wa, I like western for western-style knives and wa for traditional Japanese knives. I don't like ponies that bite.


----------



## Dave Martell

Anyone notice the number of views that this thread has?


----------



## steeley

IT'S always been about the ponies.
and tasty turtles




[/IMG]



[/IMG]


----------



## so_sleepy

Dave Martell said:


> Anyone notice the number of views that this thread has?


 
That is Google traffic. This thread is the #3 link right after SLT and youtube.


----------



## Dave Martell

so_sleepy said:


> That is Google traffic. This thread is the #3 link right after SLT and youtube.




Cool!


----------



## mpukas

JohnnyChance said:


> I have a Sakai Gyuto from bluewayjapan and even at almost double the price I would rather have the Kramer. The Sakai white steel isn't nearly as fun as the 52100 of the Kramer, edge retention is about the same, and reactivity is about 20x worse. The white might get a tad sharper, but doesn't keep it.


 
I find this very interesting - appreciate the comments as I have a 270 Yusuke f/ BWJ that is my main knife. I like it quite a lot, but there are a lot of other knives I want to try and compare it to - the Z-K being one of them. 

Do you find the Z-K holds an edge better? Why do you find the 52100 "more fun" than the white #2 - better on stones? When I got into J-knives I wans't sure I'd like a wa handle. Now I like it lot, and am not sure I'd like the handle on the Z-K; but as far as western handles go, it seems pretty darn cool. Cheers! mpp


----------



## JohnnyChance

I find the Sakai so reactive that I have to babysit it and can't use it for a number of things (acid foods, onions, etc). I find it a little annoying to work around its reactivity, that's why the 52100 is more fun. Once you have a nice patina, and it takes one easily, it doesn't discolor food, doesn't smell and doesn't rust easily. Sharpness and edge retention are pretty similar between the two. 

I too prefer wa handles, but the ZK western is pretty comfy.


----------



## Seb

Interesting... my White#2 Yusuke and my Masamoto HC are my least reactive carbons.


----------



## mpukas

Yeah, I find that interessting too. I don't have any problems w/ reactivity w/ my Yusuke. It developed a patina pretty qucikly, and it's ever changeing depending on what I'm cutting - acidic, proteins, etc. And I'm not a patina queen, so every so often I'll scrub it a bit w/ a scotch brite pad to clean it up - sometimes I find the patina gets "sticky" when wiping it down. Never had a rust problem, discoloration, smells, etc. even after cutting limes and letting it sit for 1/2 hour. Not at all reactive like the cheap iron cladding on my Moritaka.


----------



## JohnnyChance

Seb said:


> Interesting... my White#2 Yusuke and my Masamoto HC are my least reactive carbons.


 


mpukas said:


> Yeah, I find that interessting too. I don't have any problems w/ reactivity w/ my Yusuke. It developed a patina pretty qucikly, and it's ever changeing depending on what I'm cutting - acidic, proteins, etc. And I'm not a patina queen, so every so often I'll scrub it a bit w/ a scotch brite pad to clean it up - sometimes I find the patina gets "sticky" when wiping it down. Never had a rust problem, discoloration, smells, etc. even after cutting limes and letting it sit for 1/2 hour. Not at all reactive like the cheap iron cladding on my Moritaka.



Hmm, that's weird. Mine is super reactive. I have had natural and mustard patinas and both have colored foods, smelled, rusted, etc. I also forgot to add that the edge feels "brittle". I am not sure how to describe it, I am not saying that the edge crumbles or doesn't stand up. It just feels brittle or flexible whenever the blade walks or rocks on the board. I don't do this a lot, but when I do, it doesn't feel great, almost like nails on a chalkboard.


----------



## EdipisReks

the Yusuke is white 2, right? i have several white 2 knives, and none are amazingly reactive.


----------



## JohnnyChance

Yes, White #2.


----------



## EdipisReks

weird, then. my Konosuke white, which is quite similar to that knife, is neither very reactive (it puts the _forced_ in forced patina) or brittle at the edge. must be something specific to their implementation.


----------



## mpukas

[/FONT]


JohnnyChance said:


> I also forgot to add that the edge feels "brittle". I am not sure how to describe it, I am not saying that the edge crumbles or doesn't stand up. It just feels brittle or flexible whenever the blade walks or rocks on the board. I don't do this a lot, but when I do, it doesn't feel great, almost like nails on a chalkboard.


 
The facory edge on my knife did seem brittle - I used the factory edge for a bit to see what it was like, and I got a few micro-chips. Felt the same way you describe when rocking and walking. Since I've sharpened itmyself, I've had zero chipping issues, and the edge feels much sturdier and stronger. Not sure why... 

Here's an e-mail response I got f/ Keiichi when I asked about the sticker on the box that says "carbon steel"; 

Yusuke always says it is a white #2 steel but inscribes "carbon steel" on the sticker for it. I assume it is something improved white steel, I can not specify the particular name though. Because I use a short sujihiki in white #2 steel in my kitchen and I saw that it was not very reactive against the lemons or other acid foods. There are small rust spots on my blade but it is not very serious. So it seems to have both characteristics of carbon and stainless steel. I like my Yusuke very much. Hope those help you.
Regards,
Keiichi​


----------



## JohnnyChance

I have put a ton of edges on the Sakai. I did bring it too far once and the edge crumbled almost immediately. Since then I have backed it off and it has been fine, stable, no chipping, but it still feels brittle on the board. Currently it has an 80/20 edge with some thinning which has been the best for me so far.


----------



## mpukas

I find this all very intriguing how our experiences are so different. You have a lot more experience w/ J-kinves than I do, and I fully believe what your'e describing.


----------



## Eamon Burke

so_sleepy said:


> That is Google traffic. This thread is the #3 link right after SLT and youtube.


 
That is amazing.


----------



## mast3quila

I am loving the 8" Z. Kramer. I have the Shun Kramer Santoku and am wondering if it is worth keeping. In other words, return it to SLT for the ZK paring and utility or hold onto it because it might be worth something someday to a collector.


----------



## so_sleepy

mast3quila said:


> I am loving the 8" Z. Kramer. I have the Shun Kramer Santoku and am wondering if it is worth keeping. In other words, return it to SLT for the ZK paring and utility or hold onto it because it might be worth something someday to a collector.


 
These knives being mass-produced are not likely to interest collectors. Hold on to your shun-kramer if you want to keep a stainless knife around.


----------



## mast3quila

Thanks. That makes sense. There are a bunch of them out there and it's really just another cladded Shun like my Kaji Fusions (8" Chef, 5" Util, 3" Paring) that barely see the light of day. I've learned so much from this forum and am just starting on my journey from "semi-informed Shun is the best" to well.....you know. I have a similar flashlight "hobby" and candlepowerforums.com is doing the same thing.

Cheers!


----------



## deanb

I've had the ZK 10" chef's knife for two months now. I settled on a 10 degree bevel angle which seems to be what the knife likes. It takes as good an edge as I have seen and, with occasional stropping, keeps it very well. At this price point I don't think you can do any better.


----------



## jmforge

I was at a big box store today and the thing that struck me was how much better the fit and finish on the ZK 8" that I handle at SLT was than that on the Spanish made Zwilling lines like the Pro S. The Pro S and 5 Star knives and the comparable Wusthofs looked like they had been sharpened on a cinder block.


----------



## deanb

******* said:


> I was at a big box store today and the thing that struck me was how much better the fit and finish on the ZK 8" that I handle at SLT was than that on the Spanish made Zwilling lines like the Pro S. The Pro S and 5 Star knives and the comparable Wusthofs looked like they had been sharpened on a cinder block.


 
Whole different ball game.


----------



## Noodle Soup

I know it is but should it be? I think the Kramer line is what they should be producing for about a $100-$150 less per knife. I also think most of the current price is them trying to cash in on Kramer's fame and, maybe, just maybe, royalties to Kramer. Hope it is Kramer that is cashing in rather than SLT and the Germans.


----------



## Eamon Burke

Noodle Soup said:


> I know it is but should it be? I think the Kramer line is what they should be producing for about a $100-$150 less per knife. I also think most of the current price is them trying to cash in on Kramer's fame and, maybe, just maybe, royalties to Kramer. Hope it is Kramer that is cashing in rather than SLT and the Germans.


 
The price isn't just fame, it's distribution, royalties, marketing, import fees, paying off their investors, rewarding shareholders, maintaining the mandated growth rate, etc etc. Not to mention what it would do to Kramer's current business model and *unique* price point if he has his name on something that is even 60% of what a real Kramer is, but only(literally) 0.6% the price.

I agree that there is no excuse for store-bought knives being as useless and poorly designed as they are, but the fault lies in the consumer that is willing to buy whatever is on the shelf that leaves money in his wallet to buy cigarettes and beer.


----------



## jmforge

The Zwilling Kramer appears to be made pretty much like a real Kramer. Not exactly conducive to the mass production techniques used by Zwilling for their drop forged integral knives with flat pre cut and chamfered scales or injection molded handles. i suspect that with the regular knives, the most time consuming piece of labor is blade finishing and sharpening. Everything else is cookie cutter. MUCH harder to do that with the Kramer even if the blade is laser or water jet blanked and machine ground. While the fit and finish may not be up to Hancock, Fuegen, Henry or Warenski levels, you can look at the Kramer compared to the regular Zwilling stuff and see that there was some hand work involved and more care taken. All in all not bad for the same price as a mid sized Strider with a kite string handle sells for "factory direct".:lol2:


Noodle Soup said:


> I know it is but should it be? I think the Kramer line is what they should be producing for about a $100-$150 less per knife. I also think most of the current price is them trying to cash in on Kramer's fame and, maybe, just maybe, royalties to Kramer. Hope it is Kramer that is cashing in rather than SLT and the Germans.


----------



## Knifefan

******* said:


> The Zwilling Kramer appears to be made pretty much like a real Kramer. Not exactly conducive to the mass production techniques used by Zwilling for their drop forged integral knives with flat pre cut and chamfered scales or injection molded handles. i suspect that with the regular knives, the most time consuming piece of labor is blade finishing and sharpening. Everything else is cookie cutter. MUCH harder to do that with the Kramer even if the blade is laser or water jet blanked and machine ground. While the fit and finish may not be up to Hancock, Fuegen, Henry or Warenski levels, you can look at the Kramer compared to the regular Zwilling stuff and see that there was some hand work involved and more care taken. All in all not bad for the same price as a mid sized Strider with a kite string handle sells for "factory direct".:lol2:



+1

If the Z BK is overpriced and Kramer, the Germans and SLT are "cashing in", what about an original BK?


----------



## Noodle Soup

You won't find me trying to justify the price of a custom Bob Kramer. That is purely the result of a fad rather than superior performance of a massive magnitude.

But I still think $350 is a lot of money for a factory made knife.


----------



## jaybett

Noodle Soup said:


> I know it is but should it be? I think the Kramer line is what they should be producing for about a $100-$150 less per knife. I also think most of the current price is them trying to cash in on Kramer's fame and, maybe, just maybe, royalties to Kramer. Hope it is Kramer that is cashing in rather than SLT and the Germans. [/QUOTE
> 
> It's okay not to like a knife, where the profile is awkward, and doesn't fit with your cutting style. Questioning the value of a knife without stating your reasons, means the lack of a valid objection.
> 
> Jay


----------



## jmforge

Just like $200K+ is a lot of money for a "base model" factory made Ferrari California Sypder. :biggrin:


Noodle Soup said:


> You won't find me trying to justify the price of a custom Bob Kramer. That is purely the result of a fad rather than superior performance of a massive magnitude.
> 
> But I still think $350 is a lot of money for a factory made knife.


----------



## Knifefan

jaybett said:


> It's okay not to like a knife, where the profile is awkward, and doesn't fit with your cutting style. Questioning the value of a knife without stating your reasons, means the lack of a valid objection.
> 
> Jay



+1

Based on what I have seen from the Z BK, this knife is not for everyone and may not be liked by everyone. But if you look at it purely from a production perspective, one has to conclude that it offers a pretty good value. Many of the features / details that it includes probably require a lot more hand work than your typical 'factory made knife'.


----------



## jmforge

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Bob Kramer's carbon steel knives, while expensive, are not really that out of line with what others American makers in his position and high end Japanese smiths would charge for similar pieces. I thought that the complex damascus pieces were the ones bringing the outrageous sums when auctioned.


----------



## El Pescador

******* said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Bob Kramer's carbon steel knives, while expensive, are not really that out of line with what others American makers in his position and high end Japanese smiths would charge for similar pieces. I thought that the complex damascus pieces were the ones bringing the outrageous sums when auctioned.


 

He charges double what Devin Thomas does...


----------



## so_sleepy

******* said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that Bob Kramer's carbon steel knives, while expensive, are not really that out of line with what others American makers in his position and high end Japanese smiths would charge for similar pieces. I thought that the complex damascus pieces were the ones bringing the outrageous sums when auctioned.



Last time I checked, Bob was charging $150 per inch for 52100 and $400 per inch for damascus.


----------



## deanb

Noodle Soup said:


> You won't find me trying to justify the price of a custom Bob Kramer. That is purely the result of a fad rather than superior performance of a massive magnitude.
> 
> But I still think $350 is a lot of money for a factory made knife.



I couldn't disagree more, on both points. Bob has perfected his craft to the point of being an art form. The auction prices paid may (or may not) be the result of a "fad" but his regular pricing is commensurate with the product he offers. He's one guy churning out these masterpieces by himself. He deserves to make a good living.

As to $350 being a lot for a factory made knife; show me a comparable factory made knife for less. I certainly don't know of one.


----------



## Marko Tsourkan

deanb said:


> ...
> As to $350 being a lot for a factory made knife; show me a comparable factory made knife for less. I certainly don't know of one.


 
Most factory knives in this price range won't be is as good a steel as 52100, and I am not impressed by what's available. From what I have read about Zwilling Kramer, grind is very good, F&F is excellent but a heat treatment is good but not as good as on custom Kramer knvies. Incidentally, my (read Devin's) heat treatment resulted in a longer edge retention on a knife I made than Zwilling Kramer. 

Worth the money or not? It is up to a buyer. I personally think it is a better choice than a Japanese equivalent - better steel, better F&F and probably better HT, but at the same time, you can pick a custom from a number of makers for comparable (or maybe a slightly higher) price that will outperform Zwilling Kramer. Just pointing out that custom heat treatment is likely result in a better edge. 


M


----------



## jmforge

From what I have seen and heard, Kramer has nailed the heat treat of 52100 about as good as you can. I was checking videos out on his website and I saw multiple salt pots. I'm not sure what Zwilling is using in Japan for austenizing.


Marko Tsourkan said:


> Most factory knives in this price range won't be is as good a steel as 52100, and I am not impressed by what's available. From what I have read about Zwilling Kramer, grind is very good, F&F is excellent but a heat treatment is good but not as good as on custom Kramer knvies. Incidentally, my (read Devin's) heat treatment resulted in a longer edge retention on a knife I made than Zwilling Kramer.
> 
> Worth the money or not? It is up to a buyer. I personally think it is a better choice than a Japanese equivalent - better steel, better F&F and probably better HT, but at the same time, you can pick a custom from a number of makers for comparable (or maybe a slightly higher) price that will outperform Zwilling Kramer. Just pointing out that custom heat treatment is likely result in a better edge.
> 
> 
> M


----------



## JohnnyChance

Just to note, while it might be a big german company that produces them, it is a american design and (at least partially) handmade in japan. So every big nation in the cutlery world is involved somehow!


----------



## JohnnyChance

******* said:


> From what I have seen and heard, Kramer has nailed the heat treat of 52100 about as good as you can. I was checking videos out on his website and I saw multiple salt pots. I'm not sure what Zwilling is using in Japan for austenizing.


 
His heat treat is optimized for edge durability, not edge retention. So his don't chip as easy, but they don't keep that screaming sharp quality as long either. So for his objective, he did nail it. If you want a harder heat treat with better retention, then no, there are better heat treats out there.

Bill Burke is well known for his triple quench 52100 and is considered by many to have the best heat treat on 52100.


----------



## Knifefan

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Worth the money or not? It is up to a buyer. I personally think it is a better choice than a Japanese equivalent - better steel, better F&F and probably better HT, but at the same time, you can pick a custom from a number of makers for comparable (or maybe a slightly higher) price that will outperform Zwilling Kramer. Just pointing out that custom heat treatment is likely result in a better edge.
> 
> 
> M




You are comparing the value of a custom knife purchased directly from the manufacturer to one sold through the trade with the usual trade margins. IMO this is a difficult comparison. We should compare apples to apples.


----------



## Marko Tsourkan

******* said:


> From what I have seen and heard, Kramer has nailed the heat treat of 52100 about as good as you can. I was checking videos out on his website and I saw multiple salt pots. I'm not sure what Zwilling is using in Japan for austenizing.


 
True that, but I would bet you that the heat treatment Henckels does (or Japanese at the factory where it is made) is very different and is not one knife at a time. Bob Kramer customs can hold edge for two weeks in pro kitchen (with periodic stropping). While it sounds like a long time, knives from Devin Thomas and Bill Burke would surpass that by a lot. 

M


----------



## Marko Tsourkan

I was just stating my opinion whether it is worth $350 to a buyer. Though it is not a lot o money, I would probably opted for a custom in that or slightly higher price range from US makers. 

Of course, if I were for in market for a Kramer, I would probably put up with 3 years wait and $140/inch cost to get a real thing (with B.K. heat treatment and handle work skill), but I am not in the market.

M


----------



## JohnnyChance

Knifefan said:


> You are comparing the value of a custom knife purchased directly from the manufacturer to one sold through the trade with the usual trade margins. IMO this is a difficult comparison. We should compare apples to apples.


 
That is a difficult comparison. However, when they are close to the same price range, I think some comparisons can be made, because they are competing with each other (at least in our knife nut demographic). Most customs would be ~$100 more than the Zwilling Kramer, but that difference isn't that much at that price point. I wouldn't compare a $100 knife to a $200 one, but there are a bunch of blades $350-500 that can and should be compared side to side.


----------



## bprescot

Hmm. I do think it might be difficult to compare a mass-market knife to a custom, especially one where you can work with the maker to get something more suited to your needs/style. That said, there are plenty of custom-makers that make knives for sale without a particular buyer in mind, and they can be found lots of place. Just a quick perusal puts the Zwilling Kramer competing with some of those type but also a few more mass-markets:

Watanabe Blue steel 240
Mizuno Tanrenjo Hontanren 240
Takeda 240
Misono UX-10 240
Kikuichi Gold 240 
Sakai Takayuki Damascus 240
Zakuri AS 240
Suisin Inox Honyaki 240

Probably a few others we can think of as well. All can be found in the same price range and ready to ship right now from more than a few vendors. Seems like these guys and similar are the competition, or? So my question would be how this stacks up against those or similar?


----------



## SpikeC

I don't think that I would trade my Takeda for a Z BK.


----------



## deanb

bprescot said:


> Hmm. I do think it might be difficult to compare a mass-market knife to a custom, especially one where you can work with the maker to get something more suited to your needs/style. That said, there are plenty of custom-makers that make knives for sale without a particular buyer in mind, and they can be found lots of place. Just a quick perusal puts the Zwilling Kramer competing with some of those type but also a few more mass-markets:
> 
> Watanabe Blue steel 240
> Mizuno Tanrenjo Hontanren 240
> Takeda 240
> Misono UX-10 240
> Kikuichi Gold 240
> Sakai Takayuki Damascus 240
> Zakuri AS 240
> Suisin Inox Honyaki 240
> 
> Probably a few others we can think of as well. All can be found in the same price range and ready to ship right now from more than a few vendors. Seems like these guys and similar are the competition, or? So my question would be how this stacks up against those or similar?


 
The only knife on your list I have any experience with is the Suisin Inox Honyaki (270 mm). I really can't comment on the edge holding ability because I'm a home cook, and a little obsessive about stropping at that, but the ZK is certainly easier to sharpen. Also wire edges aren't really an issue with the ZK. That being said, I wouldn't trade either for the other. I love them both. F&F is great on both, they both take a great edge, and they both are a lot of fun to use. Two big differences are that the ZK is a western style chef's knife and the Suisin is a Japanese wa-gyuto and the ZK is carbon while the Suisin is stainless. Personal preference would play a big part if you were contemplating buying one or the other but they are certainly in the same league in terms of quality.


----------



## JohnnyChance

bprescot said:


> Hmm. I do think it might be difficult to compare a mass-market knife to a custom, especially one where you can work with the maker to get something more suited to your needs/style. That said, there are plenty of custom-makers that make knives for sale without a particular buyer in mind, and they can be found lots of place. Just a quick perusal puts the Zwilling Kramer competing with some of those type but also a few more mass-markets:
> 
> Watanabe Blue steel 240
> Mizuno Tanrenjo Hontanren 240
> Takeda 240
> Misono UX-10 240
> Kikuichi Gold 240
> Sakai Takayuki Damascus 240
> Zakuri AS 240
> Suisin Inox Honyaki 240
> 
> Probably a few others we can think of as well. All can be found in the same price range and ready to ship right now from more than a few vendors. Seems like these guys and similar are the competition, or? So my question would be how this stacks up against those or similar?


 
The DT ITK knives are also about the same price as the Zwilling Kramer. They are kinda both each maker's "mid-tech" knives, with Devin's obviously being more maker-made than Bob's. And also available in 52100 if you so choose.

Anyone have a DT ITK 52100 and a ZK 52100? Wonder how the heat treats differ. Or anyone with a DT 52100, feel free to send it to me for evaluation.


----------



## TamanegiKin

deanb said:


> The only knife on your list I have any experience with is the Suisin Inox Honyaki (270 mm). I really can't comment on the edge holding ability because I'm a home cook, and a little obsessive about stropping at that, but the ZK is certainly easier to sharpen. Also wire edges aren't really an issue with the ZK. That being said, I wouldn't trade either for the other. I love them both. F&F is great on both, they both take a great edge, and they both are a lot of fun to use. Two big differences are that the ZK is a western style chef's knife and the Suisin is a Japanese wa-gyuto and the ZK is carbon while the Suisin is stainless. Personal preference would play a big part if you were contemplating buying one or the other but they are certainly in the same league in terms of quality.



The Suisin is a great knife, imo It's edge holding is really good.
As far as holding a functional edge I feel It's up there.
I use my suisin as my primary knife for prep, beast o' burden.
I can't really say much about the Z-BK, I've only handled it at SLT.
I can say it was awkward listening to the sales pitch from the employee at SLT. :biggrin:


----------



## Marko Tsourkan

My heat treatment on 52100 is a derivative of Devin's, so you have an idea.

Devin has 30+ years of experience and his heat treatment of various steels reflects that. They might be mid- teckh knives, but his HT is a custom, while ZK is a high volume, production style HT. Devin does things that are not done in production setting. 
I have no doubt as which results in a better edge retention. But it would be good to compare.



M



M


----------



## EdipisReks

are owners of the Z-BK still happy with them?


----------



## DeepCSweede

I love mine and am enjoying breaking it in. I still am working on getting a decent blue patina on it. I have large mitts and the handle fits me perfectly. I tried out several others in the purchasing process and the 10" was a winner hands down.

I also have the paring knife - I do not have as much love with that since the handle could be longer but it is 100 times better than the knife I replaced it with and I do love the 52100.


----------



## deanb

EdipisReks said:


> are owners of the Z-BK still happy with them?



I sure am. I started this thread last June 1st and since then I've used it quite a bit. I'm a home cook so I'm not the best guy to ask about edge retention but I'm impressed. I think Zwilling got this one right.


----------



## NO ChoP!

I find the parer to be the most functional and comfortable parer I've ever used.

The 10" chefs takes some getting used to. It has a very large flat spot before it curves up to a very fine point. The "sweet spot" is kind of oddly placed; the action used is unique to this knife and has a learning curve. That said, it's a terrific knife, with an awesome handle, nicely rounded AND polished choil and spine, and an unmatched distal taper. Some may actually find the tip too thin and flexible....

It's truly a love or hate knife....


----------



## DeepCSweede

NO ChoP! said:


> I find the parer to be the most functional and comfortable parer I've ever used.
> 
> The 10" chefs takes some getting used to. It has a very large flat spot before it curves up to a very fine point. The "sweet spot" is kind of oddly placed; the action used is unique to this knife and has a learning curve. That said, it's a terrific knife, with an awesome handle, nicely rounded AND polished choil and spine, and an unmatched distal taper. Some may actually find the tip too thin and flexible....
> 
> It's truly a love or hate knife....



I agree with that and I definitely love mine. I had no intention of getting the 10" until I tried it out at SLT and that was it - I was sold.


----------



## Lucretia

I like my ZK utility knife more all the time. My first experience with a carbon knife, and I really like it--not hard at all to take care of it. The rounded spine and choil make a huge difference in the comfort. I'm starting to get some arthritis in my hands, and comfort is going way up on the list of requirements for my knives. 

Another big advantage the ZKs have is you can get one right away. I'm in the queue for a custom, but it'll be a year and I need a knife in the meantime. It's frustrating--there are midtechs & customs I'd really like to try, but none of them are in stock. I'm considering about a ZK chef that I could get today if I so desire, and with all the good reviews, I might take a second look at a paring knife since I need one of those too. I'm tempted to try a Carter SFGZ, but a little concerned about how it will feel in my hand. I've seen a lot of complaints about F&F, whereas most people are pretty happy with the F&F on the ZK.


----------



## Rick

I've had this knife for 6-months and it has become my all around knife. The handle looked large and bulky but, you can prep a lot of stuff and not fatigue at all. The blade design is really quite sublime and is versatile to the point that I don't find myself switching knives except to a utility or small paring knife. I love sharpening the carbon steel and it can be made razor sharp. Holds an edge pretty well but, not as well as my demascus custom Kramer. The patina that has formed on the blade is just insane gorgeous if, you are into that sort of thing. All in all, I have been very happy with this knife. :thumbsup:


----------



## NO ChoP!

Alright, I'm going to call the Kramer out, and hope that no one that traded in their Vette to buy one doesn't come looking for me.... ( these people must be displaying these and not using them, as I can't believe NO ONE has pointed this out!)

The 10" Kramer is really a 6" Kramer attached to the front of a flat 4" cleaver!!! (I have the Z, but I'm assuming the real deal shares the profile, no?)

Really...

I find the front six inches and the back four to work very differently with zero cohesion between the two. This knife actually has two sweet spots! BUT, it has one spot, that lies between the front six and the back four that is useless, clumsy and actually poorly designed IMO. 

I have been using this knife for quite some time now, and when I say use I mean professionally; I beat the snot out of it...

There are still lots of things I love about this knife; handle, steel, taper, tip; but it's awkwardness is something I haven't been able to overcome. It is actually something I have become cognitive of; either use the back end like a nakiri or a cleaver, or the front like a huge bellied chef knife.......

Hopefully, someone may take this into consideration before dropping the newly raised to $399 price tag.............


----------



## DanB

I posted on the Z-Kramer 10" already and was REALLY disappointed with it. F&F was not as good as I thought it should be at this price point (I'm a home cook who hasn't explored the world of custom knives, so some of you may still think $350 is modest. I don't). I tried to cut a beef rawhide for my dogs, something my Forschner's does with ease, and the attempt left a 1/4" gash in the steel. Yes, a gash, not a chip. Maybe I shouldn't cut such an object with this kind of knife, but a gash in the steel? Sorry, underwhelmed. Recently bought the 240mm CarboNext gyuto and like it MUCH more. Needs sharpening though.


----------



## NO ChoP!

People often refer to their favorite knife as an extension of their arm; it just feels natural. I do not get this with the ZKramer... where most knives sweet spot is, the ZKramer gets awkward and flat feeling. I would never draw cut from heel to tip with it.

My recent favorite has been the Moritaka KS. This profile lends to the largest sweet spot I've personally experienced. It's draw is as smooth as a sujihiki.


----------



## a.lber.to

I just *KNEW *I should not have read this thread through... next thing I know, I have one on order! Sigh... :dontknow:


----------



## DeepCSweede

a.lber.to said:


> I just *KNEW *I should not have read this thread through... next thing I know, I have one on order! Sigh... :dontknow:



Alberto,

Get it and give it a chance - if you don't like it send it back. Especially if you bought it through Sur La Table, they have a very lenient return policy. I still like mine, but I am a home chef, so I am not using it as much as NoChop. Mine sharpens well, cuts well, I like the balance a lot. I don't really notice the dead spot as much as Chris, but I think the analogy that it is two knives may be right on. I definitely use it in two spots, but I am tall and have huge mitts, so it fits me well and isn't that why you get a 10" / 270mm?


----------



## a.lber.to

Don't get me wrong, I read the thread through to the end, and then went ahead and ordered it - I was actually saying that I should NOT have read the thread at all!!!

Being in Europe, buying it is a bit more of a gamble, as if I return it I will be out of the shipping and the VAT I will most likely have to pay upon receipt (so, basically, that is unlikely to happen). Having read a lot about Kramer knives, I was very intrigued by his work and the shape of his knives, and this seemed like a low-enough entry point to see what that shape is all about... if I do not like it, I can always try to sell it locally in Europe.


----------



## Crothcipt

DanB said:


> I posted on the Z-Kramer 10" already and was REALLY disappointed with it. F&F was not as good as I thought it should be at this price point (I'm a home cook who hasn't explored the world of custom knives, so some of you may still think $350 is modest. I don't). I tried to cut a beef rawhide for my dogs, something my Forschner's does with ease, and the attempt left a 1/4" gash in the steel. Yes, a gash, not a chip. Maybe I shouldn't cut such an object with this kind of knife, but a gash in the steel? Sorry, underwhelmed. Recently bought the 240mm CarboNext gyuto and like it MUCH more. Needs sharpening though.



Dan did you leave a review on amazon about this problem? I just read it last night. 

I have been wanting a Kramer for a few mo. and just can't see why the price keeps going up. Also on another note Kramer now has some ready mades for sale. His carbon starts at 2700$, his damascus is 6250$.


----------



## jaybett

NO ChoP! said:


> Alright, I'm going to call the Kramer out, and hope that no one that traded in their Vette to buy one doesn't come looking for me.... ( these people must be displaying these and not using them, as I can't believe NO ONE has pointed this out!)
> 
> The 10" Kramer is really a 6" Kramer attached to the front of a flat 4" cleaver!!! (I have the Z, but I'm assuming the real deal shares the profile, no?)
> 
> Really...
> 
> I find the front six inches and the back four to work very differently with zero cohesion between the two. This knife actually has two sweet spots! BUT, it has one spot, that lies between the front six and the back four that is useless, clumsy and actually poorly designed IMO.
> 
> I have been using this knife for quite some time now, and when I say use I mean professionally; I beat the snot out of it...
> 
> There are still lots of things I love about this knife; handle, steel, taper, tip; but it's awkwardness is something I haven't been able to overcome. It is actually something I have become cognitive of; either use the back end like a nakiri or a cleaver, or the front like a huge bellied chef knife.......
> 
> Hopefully, someone may take this into consideration before dropping the newly raised to $399 price tag.............



I did mention it, back in July....



jaybett said:


> The Kramer edge while angled is flat until it sweeps up dramatically to the point. Eyeballing it, I'd say that at least 7 inches of the edge are flat. I don't think it would be unreasonable to characterize the Kramer as a nakiri with a tip. My hunch is that this is the reason why people who are use to gyutos find the Kramer odd. Since the cleaver is my main knife, the Kramer feels right.



Jay


----------



## NO ChoP!

Jay, that's awesome. I'm actually glad you have reinforced my sentiment....

I too still overall like the Kramer, just want people to be aware of its quarkiness.


----------



## DanB

Crothcipt said:


> Dan did you leave a review on amazon about this problem? I just read it last night.
> 
> I have been wanting a Kramer for a few mo. and just can't see why the price keeps going up. Also on another note Kramer now has some ready mades for sale. His carbon starts at 2700$, his damascus is 6250$.



I did. I was really impressed with this knife when I first tested in in a SLT. Tried is several times in different stores before buying. But in truth, it was my first foray into really good knives (I've had Wustoff, Henckels, Global and Tojiro before). This was a major revelation. But like guys on this forum say often, and it's true, it takes some time to find what you really like. I've just gotten the CarboNext gyuto and really like it. Assuming it sharpens well and stays in good shape, I think this will do it for me. Not seeing any reactivity with it at all yet.
On the Z-Kramer again, I was also a little disappointed with the finish. The brass rivets were not perfectly flush (as they are on the CarboNext). Not bad enough to send back for that alone, but at that price, I'd say perfect is to be expected. Luckily I bought it from cutleryandmore, and they have a VERY liberal return policy (in fact, a lifetime satisfaction policy).


----------



## Andrew H

DanB said:


> I did. I was really impressed with this knife when I first tested in in a SLT. Tried is several times in different stores before buying. But in truth, it was my first foray into really good knives (I've had Wustoff, Henckels, Global and Tojiro before). This was a major revelation. But like guys on this forum say often, and it's true, it takes some time to find what you really like. I've just gotten the CarboNext gyuto and really like it. Assuming it sharpens well and stays in good shape, I think this will do it for me. Not seeing any reactivity with it at all yet.
> On the Z-Kramer again, I was also a little disappointed with the finish. The brass rivets were not perfectly flush (as they are on the CarboNext). Not bad enough to send back for that alone, but at that price, I'd say perfect is to be expected. Luckily I bought it from cutleryandmore, and they have a VERY liberal return policy (in fact, a lifetime satisfaction policy).



If you haven't sharpened your CarboNext yet I'm guessing you'll be happy with it. They are somewhat famous for coming with poor edges from the factory.


----------



## qckfrze

For those that like this knife: What is the intention of the flat part of the blade near the heel? 

I demo'ed the knife @ SLT twice, once on a wood cutting board, a second on the black wood composite board (felt much harder), and I noticed that the last inch of blade near the heel is "suspended" above the board when the knife heel is all the way down. If I'm cutting w/ a chef's knife, this means the strip of veggies gets cut but it's all still held together by a thin skin where the knife didn't contact the board.

What gives? Is this supposed to be the way this knife cuts?


----------



## mpukas

I finally got to fondle a ZKramer in SLT in Boulder the other day. My thoughts echo Chris's and Jay's f/ above. They only had a crappy thin composite cutting board on a glass counter top, so the cutting surface was very noisy and strange and distractiong. The knife I used wasn't very sharp at all, but it still cut, sliced, cubed and juillened an apple very nicely. I like the handle design. I think issues w/ fit and finish around the handle and pins could be from the wood shrinking/swelling. Taper was very nice, thin at the tip, and spine thickness was no more than 3mm above the heel, I'm guessing. Grind was dead flat on the sides, no convexing. 

I found the profile odd - calling it a kakiri w/ a tip is very accurate. I have a Moritaka kiri-gyuto that is dead-flat for the first 1/2-2/3 of the blade, and as with the ZK, it's somewhat akward, but I found the tip more strange. It's probably due to what I'm used to in Japanese gyuto profiles, as I like a tip to have a gentle curve and a bit of a flat spot behind the point. I found the ZK tip to be small in it's amount of curve and it was a continuos curve. 

Overall, very nice for a factory produced knife. I prefer the profile of a gyuto, and there's no way I'd pay $400 for it.


----------



## mpukas

qckfrze said:


> For those that like this knife: What is the intention of the flat part of the blade near the heel?
> 
> I demo'ed the knife @ SLT twice, once on a wood cutting board, a second on the black wood composite board (felt much harder), and I noticed that the last inch of blade near the heel is "suspended" above the board when the knife heel is all the way down. If I'm cutting w/ a chef's knife, this means the strip of veggies gets cut but it's all still held together by a thin skin where the knife didn't contact the board.
> 
> What gives? Is this supposed to be the way this knife cuts?



It's referred to as accordianing. It happen when a blade that is supposed to be dead flat has "holes" in the edge, or over-ground, or unevenly ground areas, along the primary/edge bevel. 

It could be that the knife you tried was over-ground in the heel. I didn't notice it on the on I tried, but that's no to say it wasn't there. Sometimes an issue like this can be fixed with proper sharpening, other times it can be a big issue (chceck out the Moritaka threads w/ over-grind issues). Other folks here are a lot more experienced with this than I am, and will hopefully chime in.


----------



## qckfrze

I tried two different 10" chef knives: the demo one off the magnetic rack, and one fresh from the box, unopened. Both exhibited the exact same "flat spot", so I'm wondering if other owners/users of this knife see the same issue.

Or is it that this batch of knives from Zwilling had a defect?


----------



## Andrew H

qckfrze said:


> I tried two different 10" chef knives: the demo one off the magnetic rack, and one fresh from the box, unopened. Both exhibited the exact same "flat spot", so I'm wondering if other owners/users of this knife see the same issue.
> 
> Or is it that this batch of knives from Zwilling had a defect?



Most knives we talk about here have flat spots near the heel. It helps to prevent accordioning when doing a push cut or chop. The problem seems to be either A. both knives had an overgrind in the same place (somewhat unlikely) or B. your technique isn't used to the new profile.


----------



## tk59

qckfrze said:


> For those that like this knife: What is the intention of the flat part of the blade near the heel?
> 
> I demo'ed the knife @ SLT twice, once on a wood cutting board, a second on the black wood composite board (felt much harder), and I noticed that the last inch of blade near the heel is "suspended" above the board when the knife heel is all the way down. If I'm cutting w/ a chef's knife, this means the strip of veggies gets cut but it's all still held together by a thin skin where the knife didn't contact the board.
> 
> What gives? Is this supposed to be the way this knife cuts?


That is a defect borne out of carelessness. Apparently the fit and finish of these knives isn't all that great. I've never seen on a production knife. 
@Lucretia: The fit and finish issues most often mentioned with regard to Carter knives have nothing to do with performance and comfort. I've seen and used a dozen or so and I own four and have seen no significant defects other than a tip broken during shipping which Murray offered to rectify.


----------



## kalaeb

tk59 said:


> Apparently the fit and finish of these knives isn't all that great. I've never seen on a production knife.
> QUOTE]
> 
> The only fit and finish issue I have seen on these knives is a slight shrinking of the wood. But to be honest, every handle I have had that came from somewhere else has had the same issue here from customs to Cocobolo. Not sure if anyone else had the issue. Apart from that, the wood is well fit against the bolster, there are no gaps in the tang, the brass is brilliantly shined, the choil is very comfy to hold, polished and rounded all the way down, as is the machi. I would give the FF substiantially above par for every other J knife we talk about here.


----------



## kalaeb

Alot has been said about the amount of "flat" the ZKramer has, and it does, however, IMO the "flat" is what I like about it. Take my comments with a grain of salt, I like cleavers too...

The ZKramer has approx 10% more flat than the lusted after KS profile with the ZKramer coming in at 46% flat v. 36% on the Moritaka KS.

I did a basic comparison to some other commonly used knives and below are the percent of "flat" spots that some knives have and how the Kramer compares. The attached pictures are not the best and the amount of flat calculated was at the slightest curvature upwards, even though it is not clearly evident by the pictures. 

Tojiro hammered 180mm: 41.6% flat



Fujiwara 240: 27% flat


DT 250: 26% flat


Moritaka KS 250: 36% flat


Misuno 270: 20% flat


ZKramer: 46% flat


----------



## NO ChoP!

Matt, I love posts like that; visual info rocks. Is your zk the 8"? I think the 10" literally is an 8" with 2 extra inches of flat space...


----------



## NO ChoP!

Maybe its just angle perspective.....


----------



## stevenStefano

That is a very interesting set of photos Matt, thanks. Flatness is an issue that interests me. Some of my favourite knives don't have a large flat area, but have a massive sweet spot which is a whole different kettle of fish


----------



## SameGuy

Is your Boardsmith uneven? Or is there a high spot in the ZK's grind right forward of the heel? Optical illusion?


----------



## mmingio2

I had the exact same overgrind in my 10" version. It didn't affect performance _much _but it drove me nuts to look at it! One of the reasons I took it back to SLT. Bought a Konosuke 270 mm W2 instead...love it. Miss that Kramer handle though.....



SameGuy said:


> Is your Boardsmith uneven? Or is there a high spot in the ZK's grind right forward of the heel? Optical illusion?


----------



## kalaeb

SameGuy said:


> Is your Boardsmith uneven? Or is there a high spot in the ZK's grind right forward of the heel? Optical illusion?



There is a slight high spot there.
@NO ChoP, this is the 10" version.


----------



## SameGuy

Thanks for the info; I'm sure you'd have noted if it had any effect on performance. Very slick looking knife. Color me envious.


----------



## DeepCSweede

kalaeb said:


> There is a slight high spot there.
> @NO ChoP, this is the 10" version.



Checked my 10" last night and it doesn't have this high spot in front of the heel and the grind was pretty decent.


----------



## Eamon Burke

The view count on this thread boggles my mind


----------



## kalaeb

BurkeCutlery said:


> The view count on this thread boggles my mind



When I put in Zwilling Kramer, this is the number three google pull, right behind Sur La Table and Amazon. Lots of people comming here to research, which is great for us.


----------



## Rick

He is popular for sure. This is the pair of knives that he just auctioned off on his site a few days ago for... drum role... $32,100.


----------



## cnochef

I swear when my name comes up for the Kramer lottery, I'm thinking very seriously about just buying one and putting it up on EBay to make some quick bucks. IT seems like a certain crowd can't wait their turn and will pay just about anything to get their Kramer sooner!


----------



## Crothcipt

They don't sell well on ebay.


----------



## cnochef

Crothcipt said:


> They don't sell well on ebay.




I don't know about that, I've seen them easily go for double what he charges. Although I have to admit I haven't been paying attention to them lately.


----------



## Crothcipt

I watched one start off at 8k, few months later he had it down to 5k. Then he put it on auction it sold for 4.5k from what I saw. I haven't been paying attention here recently, either.


----------



## tk59

kalaeb said:


> There is a slight high spot there...


Okay, maybe this isn't a fit and finish issue. It's a defect either way, unless it's your sharpening that's the problem.


----------



## Johnny.B.Good

Crothcipt said:


> They don't sell well on ebay.



Maybe potential buyers are nervous about fakes...


----------



## Crothcipt

this guy had pics of the c.o.a., after a few mo. Although It did sell quicker after he posted them, and dropped the price. 

I sure hope it was no one here.


----------



## jseliger

> He talked about his love for 52100, and he gave a Sharpening 101 demo, including a King combo stone and the Zwilling combo (250/ 1000 (!)). He deburred/ honed on a piece of cardboard in between stones



Anyone have a link to a good video or resource for this? I've been using using this Spyderco Knife Sharpener set for years, but apparently other tools do a better job.


----------



## iRune

I don't know if this is slightly off topic but here goes. 
I recently acquired an 8 inch Kramer Zwilling euroline. I noticed that the blade is not completely straight (lying flat on a table, the point is raised <1 millimeter from the surface) 
Looking at the OP pictures, I think I am seeing something similar.
Is this to be expected with forged knives or is it indicative of a problem?
EDIT: I can post some pictures later if needed


----------



## gic

mine has the same defect, i'm planning on returning it for a replacement...


----------



## James

Is it a warp/bend or is it just the grind towards the tip? From what I remember, these have a pretty wicked distal taper so the entire blade might not lay flat.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

iRune said:


> I don't know if this is slightly off topic but here goes.
> I recently acquired an 8 inch Kramer Zwilling euroline. I noticed that the blade is not completely straight (lying flat on a table, the point is raised <1 millimeter from the surface)
> Looking at the OP pictures, I think I am seeing something similar.
> Is this to be expected with forged knives or is it indicative of a problem?
> EDIT: I can post some pictures later if needed





gic said:


> mine has the same defect, i'm planning on returning it for a replacement...



That's not the way to check for a bent blade, especially one with distal taper, as James has said.

Hold the knife with the point toward you and sight down the edge. If the knife is bent, it will be readily apparent.


----------



## marc4pt0

Had an 8" in carbon for almost 2 years. I swear the blade was not bent to one side when I checked it but I noticed it was earlier this year and took it back to Sur la Table and they full refunded it. I had forced mustard patina and polished that knife a few times. Even thinned it and sanded the handle smooth. They just took it back. But the 10"Carbon is just insane. I can't imagine giving that one up. It's always with me at work.


----------



## Lefty

I don't like that I sold mine. It was one of my best all-arounders, for sure. But, kids need cribs to sleep in.


----------



## SolidSnake03

Picked up an 8' Chefs Carbon a while back and I'm set, honestly have no desire for another chefs knife/gyuto. Only thing i would love to try someday is one of the HHH production gyutos or a Pierre Rodriguez Mid Tech. Even then, im just interested in giving them a shot, dont really feel a need to cover some sort of deficiency in the Kramer (cant find one for my use) 

Love every aspect of this thing and think it will only get better as it ages and patinas nicely. The 8' is perfect for a single home user that cooks mainly meals for himself. Also this is the first 8' ive used where i like the height of it (aka not too short). 

The blade sharpens so easily, takes a great edge, rounded spine and choil for comfort, steller handle and build quality, thin behind the edge yet workhorse thick at the spine for all around use, crazy thin tip. This knife honestly has so much going for it, for the price i think its exceptional. 

Also, ive had no handle shrink yet, been rubbing in a coating of board cream and letting it sit overnight with it on then wiping it down in the morning. I do this once a week or so and seems to work perfectly.

Anyhow, all and all this is the first knife ive owned where i just went "yup im done"


----------



## chinacats

SolidSnake03 said:


> Anyhow, all and all this is the first knife ive owned where i just went "yup im done"



Congratulations!

I say that every few months


----------



## SolidSnake03

Haha, yeh im sure ill go back on it at some point...probably with either of those that i mentioned 

But right now i havent seen a flaw and find it fun and enjoyable to use which is a big deal for me. Other knives have been boring for me but this one just is fun to use


----------



## Lefty

SolidSnake03 said:


> Haha, yeh im sure ill go back on it at some point...probably with either of those that i mentioned
> 
> But right now i havent seen a flaw and find it fun and enjoyable to use which is a big deal for me. Other knives have been boring for me but this one just is fun to use



And that is what it's all about. They're great knives!


----------



## SolidSnake03

Too true! Trying so many knives has really allowed me to see what goes into making a "keeper" knife for me, its much more than just excellent grind, f&f, handle and steel. A bit part is that un-quantifiable "fun" that you feel using it. For me the Kramer has that in a Chefs knife, really would love to try the HHH someday and a Pierre but until then im very happily set!


----------



## SolidSnake03

Too true! Trying so many knives has really allowed me to see what goes into making a "keeper" knife for me, its much more than just excellent grind, f&f, handle and steel. A bit part is that un-quantifiable "fun" that you feel using it. For me the Kramer has that in a Chefs knife, really would love to try the HHH someday and a Pierre but until then im very happily set!


----------



## iRune

SO, after recovering from chrostmas I got a chance to take a few pictures of the slight bend. Turns out that taking informative pictures of the knife without focus stacking is harder than I thought. I might try to take some more one of these days if needed for the diagnosis.




This pis kinda shows the problem. More pics here (though largely identical) :

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bw0IFtyk4cIQd1JwV0w0MU9TbUk&usp=sharing


----------



## johnstoc

Just received my 8 ZK in 52100. Im stoked for it but its a little thicker than I was expecting. I would appreciate some input from other members as to how this compares to their ZK knives. I am also comparing my measurements to those from JohnnyChance on page 9 and 10 of this thread.

Weight of my 8 is 283g, JohnnyChance measured 293 for a 10. Only 10 grams for a 25% or 2 increase in length?

Thickness of spine: 4.09mm at the bolster (vs Johhnys 3.87mm), 2.62mm 4 from tip (vs 1.88mm), 1.30mm 1 from tip (vs 0.68mm), 0.64mm at the tip (vs 0.18mm). Mine seems significantly thicker all the way around.

Width of blade measured at (or directly above) the primary bevel: At the choil/heel: 1.00mm thick (see choil shot), ½ forward from heel 0.60mm, ~0.45mm for much of the length of the knife, then gets thicker at 0.60mm wide at the tip. It feels like the thickness flares out near the choil in the last few mm, even right above the primary bevel. 

Height up the blade at which 1.00mm thickness is achieved is approximately 10-11mm. The portion of the blade at the tip which is totally under 1.00mm thickness is 15mm. JohhnyChance measured his 10 at 43mm under 1mm total thickness.

Height of the primary bevel is in excess of 1mm.

I know the 8 and 10 may have slightly different profiles or more distal taper, but does this seem excessive for this knife? What do you make of the thickness of this ZK 8? Please let me know if I should start my own thread, seems relevant to this mega-thread.

Choil Shot: 




Weight:




Measuring thickness directly above primary bevel, at heel/choil




Measuring thickness directly above primary bevel:




Height of primary bevel is <1mm


----------



## panda

return that immediately


----------



## James

iRune said:


> SO, after recovering from chrostmas I got a chance to take a few pictures of the slight bend. Turns out that taking informative pictures of the knife without focus stacking is harder than I thought. I might try to take some more one of these days if needed for the diagnosis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This pis kinda shows the problem. More pics here (though largely identical) :
> 
> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bw0IFtyk4cIQd1JwV0w0MU9TbUk&usp=sharing



this looks bent to me. I'd return as well


----------



## panda

i mean the really thick one, that thing was not finished grinding.


----------



## chefcomesback

It is not ground at all , I would return it as well


----------



## Livlif

johnstoc said:


> Just received my 8 ZK in 52100. Im stoked for it but its a little thicker than I was expecting. I would appreciate some input from other members as to how this compares to their ZK knives. I am also comparing my measurements to those from JohnnyChance on page 9 and 10 of this thread.



Sad to say but it looks like you got a dud. You should definitely return it. Where did you order it from?


----------



## johnstoc

Thanks for the input, this one's headed back to SLT. 

Also the choil shot may have been a little deceptive, the knife is only that thick at the heel. It's almost like they ground most of the knife and stopped before the last 1/2". That said, the rest of the knife needs a bit more grinding in my opinion.

I was really looking forward to trying out this knife both for its design and as I have never worked with 52100. Hopefully the next one looks better.


----------



## Livlif

johnstoc said:


> Thanks for the input, this one's headed back to SLT.
> 
> Also the choil shot may have been a little deceptive, the knife is only that thick at the heel. It's almost like they ground most of the knife and stopped before the last 1/2". That said, the rest of the knife needs a bit more grinding in my opinion.
> 
> I was really looking forward to trying out this knife both for its design and as I have never worked with 52100. Hopefully the next one looks better.





Return it to SLT. Get your money back and buy one from bed bath and beyond. They will price match SLT and you get a lifetime warranty on the knife. If anything happens you can return it and get another.


----------



## stoneray

The last post is from almost two years ago.

So, is this knife still getting a lot of love from the people who own it? Using it a lot? How does it compare to your other (Japanese) beauties? 

I have to say I really like the handle. I usually don't like western handles so much and prefer Wa but this one is a real exception.

I am considering having a friend bring me one back from the States and personally getting it at SLT so he can make sure there is no bent tip and hollow grind.
There still are a few SLTs which carry it at the shop.


----------



## MAS4T0

There have been some threads more recently touching on these.

I had one as my first good knife and I really did enjoy it. The handle on mine shrunk noticeably (you couldn't feel it but you could see it) and the profile wasn't right for me once I got to know what I liked; the Kramer profile is basically German with a tall blade, belly and a raised tip and I've taken a liking to more French profiles which have a lower height, a flatter profile and a lower tip.

It's certainly a good capable knife if you're in the market for a knife of this style. Do you have any specific questions?

To surmise, there was nothing wrong with the knife, but it wasn't to my tastes so it was sent on to a better home.


----------



## stoneray

Thanks! 

Well, I was just wondering if some of the people who had proclaimed their love in this thread towards this knife are still infatuated with it. If they still regularily use it and how it compares to their other high end knifes. I understand that some (like you) don't really like the profile but it seemed that there are others who like it very much.


----------



## MAS4T0

It depends on how you'll be using the knife.

If you like to rock chop, and work on a low counter (or are tall) then it's good. The belly makes it a natural rock chopper, but the high angle you have to lift the handle to in order to effectively use the tip was uncomfortable for me. If you do a lot of tip work and aren't quite tall, you would probably have the same experience.

If you are going to cut like this then the Kramer is good for you:

[video=youtube;BRvumXrbGIw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRvumXrbGIw[/video]

If you would prefer to cut like this (as is the case with most members here) then a more standard gyuto would work better for you:

[video=youtube;FFBQ6fwzm08]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFBQ6fwzm08[/video]


----------



## richard

You can still effectively push cut with a Zwilling Kramer. I agree that the tip is higher than most knives people here are used to, and that requires some adjustment when doing tip work, and some may not like it, but I don't agree that it has as much belly that Shun and German knives do that make it only good for rock chopping.


----------



## stoneray

Thanks!

I was just wondering, if you read though this thread, there are a lot of people who are very excited about this knife and if, after all this time, they are still happy with this knife. Some long time experiences...


----------



## MAS4T0

richard said:


> You can still effectively push cut with a Zwilling Kramer. I agree that the tip is higher than most knives people here are used to, and that requires some adjustment when doing tip work, and some may not like it, but I don't agree that it has as much belly that Shun and German knives do that make it only good for rock chopping.



Absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that it's only good for rocking, I used to primarily chop with mine, but if you're not going to be rocking there are other knives which are most likely better suited for your needs.



stoneray said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I was just wondering, if you read though this thread, there are a lot of people who are very excited about this knife and if, after all this time, they are still happy with this knife. Some long time experiences...



There have been quite a few threads recently about these which may give a better perspective, so a search would probably help, the on-site search isn't the best, so try this:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=k...q=zwilling kramer site:kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## stoneray

Thank you for all your help!

I've actually already been through all the relevant threads (I usually search before I ask) but not quite what I was looking for. I'm looking for long time users who can speak about their experience, perhaps those who still favour this knife and their feelings about it, and those who compare it to their other good knives (as I've already mentioned). 

Also interested in problems people have with it. I think wood shrinkage or a slightly bent blade were quite common, also hollow grind or any other problems...


----------



## aboynamedsuita

I think it's difficult to compare to other knives as it is not really apples to apples. It is rather unique with the profile and all some will either love it or hate it. I have one and like it. I also have other knives I like a lot. 

The 10" 52100 was my first "good" knife, but I had some issues with the handle wood shrinking and rivets exposing, and the grind was kinda weird near the tip but was not serious. Zwilling let me return it, so I did thinking I could get the limited edition carbon Damascus model for <$1k CAD (different than the SG2 chevron Damascus production model). This didn't work out so I repurchased the 10" 52100 as I missed having it, plus I'll probably never own a real Kramer lol.

The new one didn't have to grind or handle issue, but after several months here in Canada (very dry in winter) the handle suffered the same problem. The blade is straight and the only thing I've noticed after polishing out the vertical grind marks is that towards the heel the grind is kinda weird Basically on one side it seems like they have a hollow or slight overgrind, as if they didn't taper it all the way to the handle. Hard to describe, but it's as if they ground tip to heel at a certain angle, then stopped a few mm from the choil because there is a budge of metal which is only apparent from being a pain to try and polish the other side of the hollow. On the their side the budge was more of a depression relative than the remainder of the blade (also noted when polishing I did this side first), so I think the may have made a minor mistake.

Difficult to see, but here is the side with the bulge at the choil/heel (the outer side was kinda the opposite, was easier to polish several mm away from the heel/choil):




The black dot in he hollow is sharpie ink I measured with callipers from the cutting edge to the dot, and also from the choil/heel side there is less than 0.5mm difference and that would also include distal taper. I don't think it will amount to a serious problem as there is a lot of metal which will go with thinning over time and then even out.

Otherwise the blade appears straight as an arrow when viewed with the tip towards you and also the cutting edge lining up with the spine. You can't expect perfection with a knife at this price point (which relatively speaking isn't high compared to some other options). If I were to return it they probably wouldn't even understand what the issue is and there's no guarantee I'd get a flawless one again. The issue only became apparent with polishing out the vertical grind marks. 

All this aside I like it. Once I'm done polishing I'm going to get the handle redone and make it something special.


----------



## stoneray

Thank you, very interesting post!

Do you think by oiling it, you could have prevented the handle shrinking?

May I also ask for what kind of tasks do you mostly use this knife and what kind of cutting (rocking, push, pull etc)?

When you get the handle redone, you will keep the original shape of the handle?

May I also ask how you polished out those vertical grind marks?


----------



## aboynamedsuita

stoneray said:


> Thank you, very interesting post!
> 
> Do you think by oiling it, you could have prevented the handle shrinking?
> 
> May I also ask for what kind of tasks do you mostly use this knife and what kind of cutting (rocking, push, pull etc)?
> 
> When you get the handle redone, you will keep the original shape of the handle?
> 
> May I also ask how you polished out those vertical grind marks?



No problem, glad you found it helpful. I did oil it with mineral oil/bees wax from the get go but to no avail. I was told by a handle maker that the Blackwood probably wasn't dried/seasoned well which resulted in the problems. After doing some reading Arizona ironwood, African Blackwood, and ringed gidgee don't really stabilize well (apparently doesn't penetrate beyond the surface, which gets sanded when shaping); probably others but these three came up often.

I use mine for most tasks such as meats and vegetables, usually push, sometimes pull (seems better with delicate proteins such as chicken breast) and also can do horizontal slices thru onions as the tip is nice and thin. 

The plan is the keep the same style (essentially only the wood scales are removed and the metal tang forms the basis of the shape). See this thread by Dave Martell (I will be working with Dave too) for a sample of a ZK rehandle:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/27046-Kramer-Zwilling-Rehandle

I am using a series of progressively finer sand papers and 3M PSA Mylar sheets then possibly some micro abrasives. Lots of work but so far doing the initial sanding with 100 grit perpendicular to the vertical grinds is he most work


----------



## stoneray

Thank you! It looks beautiful with the new handle.

Could you perhaps show a picture of the wood shrinkage?

And are there known cases where these knives have no wood shrinkage?


----------



## aboynamedsuita

Here's a pic of my previous one, similar issue with the new one. Some have just sanded the rivets apparently, but I've heard they're rather thin on the top. 




Apparently sometimes the wood can shrink around the tang too, I saw a display one at the kitchenware store like that. 

I've heard that some of them are fine. It's probably due to a more temperate climate, and perhaps with the latter production runs they tried to rush due to the popularity and used the wood prematurely (the ones with issues)?


----------



## stoneray

Thanks! Is it more of a visual thing or does it affect the usage as well?


----------



## aboynamedsuita

You can feel it, kinda helps with grip I suppose but still would rather not have to deal with it.


----------



## stoneray

Thank you so much for your detailed posts!

It seems that overall this knife doesn't seem to get a lot of love on this forum anymore.


----------



## SolidSnake03

Which in my opinion is quite silly. It's a well made knife in a good steel with good heat treat that is at a fair price with great distal taper and performance. For what you would pay for say a 8' Carbon Kramer you won't get any sort of Japanese Knife that has near that level of fit or finish or has the kind of warranty and support you get if you buy from somewhere like Cutlery and More or Sur La Table.

Further, I've spent way more than $300 on some custom knives from American and European makers and some well known Japanese ones that weren't nearly as good as this knife was out of the box (once you put a nice edge on it because the out of the box edge was just ok). The handle is excellent too so as long as you are good with a Western handle and a taller knife it is absolutely a good buy when you compare the price to other stuff out there and what you would get quality wise for it.


----------



## aboynamedsuita

Well said snake, I don't think it's right to generalize the lack of recent feedback means people don't like the knife anymore


----------



## stoneray

Thanks snake, great to hear! Although I have some pretty good Japanese knives, I find this knife very appealing. But since I'm buying from overseas , I will not be able to try out or return it and wanted to get some feedback from long term users...


----------



## SolidSnake03

Welcome 

I would absolutely buy one knowing that it is most definitely a good knife and stacks up very well to other stuff. Also, re-sale shouldn't be a problem at all if you didn't like it. They tend to sell on here and on eBay for fairly high prices aka you wouldn't lose much at all.


----------



## Lefty

Great knife


----------



## deanb

I've had this knife for five years now. It's a great knife. I originally set the bevels at about ten degrees and it's a great cutter. I use a loaded strop from time to time and have only had to take it to the stones two or three times in five years.


----------



## richard

stoneray said:


> Thank you so much for your detailed posts!
> 
> It seems that overall this knife doesn't seem to get a lot of love on this forum anymore.



Well as you might see now, it was probably premature that you assumed that. Another thing to note is that the forum seems quite a bit quieter on the weekend, and a couple days isn't a long time to get opinions on a knife that has a bit of a niche ownership. I think Zwilling Kramers are good knives, have a 10" ZK Essential and an 8" ZK Meiji myself.


----------



## Iggy

Hi,

I bought a ZK Kramer 52100 10 inch a few month ago 'cause I liked the design and I guessed I would never own a real Kramer and so I gave it a go while the carbons are still more or less avaiable and I'm pretty pleased with it. 

Fit and Finish is really damn good. No shrinkage in the wood or anything whatsoever. Only flaw is that the blade has a slight bend to one side near the tip. Doesn't concern me much as the bend is only quite "moderate" so I didn't noticed at all in the beginning, just after taking some picture for the german knife review. Just saying, might concern someone...

But overall can't agree more... good f&f, good steel with decent ht, nice comfy handle. Only thing that it lacks for me is food release. But that's probably my only criticism.


----------



## deanb

deanb said:


> I've had this knife for five years now. It's a great knife. I originally set the bevels at about ten degrees and it's a great cutter. I use a loaded strop from time to time and have only had to take it to the stones two or three times in five years.



Just a few more comments. I have three ZK 10" chef's knives, 52100, Damascus clad SG2, and AEB-L Essential. I also have a real Bob Kramer 52100 9" chef's knife to compare to the ZKs. I haven't seen any scale shrinkage on any of them. The distal taper from the bolster to the tip and from the bolster to the heel are very similar for all four knives. I think that the heat treatment for all of these knives is also very similar, excellent. I think all the ZKs are good buys.


----------



## LucasFur

deanb said:


> Just a few more comments. I have three ZK 10" chef's knives, 52100, Damascus clad SG2, and AEB-L Essential. I also have a real Bob Kramer 52100 9" chef's knife to compare to the ZKs. I haven't seen any scale shrinkage on any of them. The distal taper from the bolster to the tip and from the bolster to the heel are very similar for all four knives. I think that the heat treatment for all of these knives is also very similar, excellent. I think all the ZKs are good buys.



never owned a real kramer but - I agree with deanb - I owned 8" of Zkramers 52100/ R2/ AEB-L versions at the same time for several months. All are "good" knives.
Though they are the same profile, they dont behave as not the same knife with different steel. 
handle is biggest on the R2 - blade is thickest on 52100 - and the AEB-L, for me has the best tip for detailed work. 
Gosh, I wish the 10" versions made it up here to Canada a little easier, one zwilling rep told me they were only bringing 75 10" 52100's to canada


----------



## bennyprofane

To those who have the 52100 and the AEB-L, which one do you prefer? I've read the 52100 gets sharper...


----------



## aboynamedsuita

LucasFur said:


> Gosh, I wish the 10" versions made it up here to Canada a little easier, one zwilling rep told me they were only bringing 75 10" 52100's to canada



I spoke with WFE in Windsor, ON as well as Zwilling Canada... apparently they are discontinued in Canada effective sometime in 2014/2015, it would be nice if they brought them back. After the issues with my first one I had to order from Cutlery & More, but fortunately there was a 20% off sale at the time


----------



## Aleque

I read this thread months ago and was finally able to stop by a Sur la table to check out the zwilling Bob Kramer 10" carbon. 

I really liked the knife. I don't have a knife with a handle similar to the Kramer so it was a little different, but I liked it. The only issue I was thinking about was if I needed the 10" , or if I would be happier with the 8". I have other 240mm gyutos but I usually gravitate to smaller knives because of board space. My concern is the size of the handle being too large compared to the size of the knife. Does anyone know if the smaller 8" has a slightly smaller handle? Or are they the same size?


----------



## aboynamedsuita

Aleque said:


> I read this thread months ago and was finally able to stop by a Sur la table to check out the zwilling Bob Kramer 10" carbon.
> 
> I really liked the knife. I don't have a knife with a handle similar to the Kramer so it was a little different, but I liked it. The only issue I was thinking about was if I needed the 10" , or if I would be happier with the 8". I have other 240mm gyutos but I usually gravitate to smaller knives because of board space. My concern is the size of the handle being too large compared to the size of the knife. Does anyone know if the smaller 8" has a slightly smaller handle? Or are they the same size?



I can't comment about the 8" chef's knife, but the bread knife handle is the same size as the 10" chef's knife. When I had the slicing/carving knife, the handle was smaller than the 10" chef's knife


EDIT
Also had the santoku, handle was fairly large too, I want to say the same size as the 10" chef's knife, but don't recall for sure. I also had the 90mm Parer it was much smaller


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## richard

8" ZK Western chef knife handle is same as 10". Actually the 6" as well (but not the case for the Meiji 6").


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## richard

Aleque said:


> My concern is the size of the handle being too large compared to the size of the knife. Does anyone know if the smaller 8" has a slightly smaller handle? Or are they the same size?



Personally I find the 8" handle size is well matched. The 6" western handle proportions are a little bit weird, admittedly.


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## Aleque

I'm tempted to wait for the Meiji line to come out. But from what I gathered it's a waiting game, correct? There is no official release date yet from googling the topic as far as I can see. The only change would be to the handle for the Meiji?


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## LucasFur

what what what there is a new zkramer meiji line coming out? do you have any links?


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## Aleque

LucasFur said:


> what what what there is a new zkramer meiji line coming out? do you have any links?



I just read the comments in this thread and others were saying that when Kramer released his line with Shun he did an exclusive with Sur la table and then released a Meiji line with everyone else. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone.

If this happens once again I'm tempted to wait.


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## Pensacola Tiger

Several years ago Bob Kramer had an arrangement with Shun for both the Euroline and Meiji knives. That arrangement no longer exists.

Currently, Zwilling is making Euroline knives in monosteel 52100 and FC61 stainless, and in SG-2 core damascus, and the Meiji line in FC61 core damascus. I have not heard anything about a monosteel Meiji line in the works, though a lot of forum members would jump on a Meiji in 52100. 

At the present time, Sur la Table has exclusive rights to the Meiji line. The Euroline damascus was a Sur la Table exclusive when it was first introduced, but after a period of time, they were sold by other vendors, like Cutlery & More, but there wasn't any reduction in price. If you want a Meiji damascus, I'd say go ahead and get it, as the price isn't likely to go down.


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## LucasFur

I just care about the steel. A Meiji in 52100 would be great


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## aboynamedsuita

Meiji fc61 Damascus is now also sold at a few places in Canada, but agree a carbon version would be awesome


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## jonnachang

I couldn’t wait! Meijification!


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## deanb

jonnachang said:


> I couldn’t wait! Meijification!View attachment 66990
> View attachment 66991


How do you like the Meji handles compared to the Euro Line handles?


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## jonnachang

They are fantastic! I had Carter Hopkins do the handles and the sayas. Cheers!


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