# Current BST practices



## Panamapeet (Sep 4, 2017)

Hi all,

I though I'd open a thread to discuss the current BST practice of upselling knives that have been bought a few days or some weeks ago from several vendors. Most notably are the Shigs and Katos as most of you will know. 

Personally, I think threads where people try to make a profit with recently bought knives (as opposed to knives which have been collected for years) should be closed for a couple of reasons. First, I think people who do not know a lot about the value of knives should be protected against prices which are at the top of, or above, market value. This is in my opinion one of the things that makes KKF great, and we should not forget this. Secondly, I think upselling is against the BST rules. The rules clearly state that BST is only for personal sales. Personal sales are the opposite of sales made by businesses. Businesses, amongst other things, buy goods, and on-sell them with a profit. Following this reasoning, people who upsell knives are nothing short of running a business, which should not be allowed in the BST section. Thirdly, my non-educated guess is that facilitating these practices might not go well with the vendors initially selling the knives.

I would love to hear your opinions on this and without a doubt some of you will have good arguments for the current upselling practices :wink:

PS: this thread is not aimed at someone in particular.


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## TheCaptain (Sep 4, 2017)

It's a mixed bag. While I'm not an expert, in the end it's all about what a willing buyer will pay a willing seller. I have a stupid spam filter that sends every "it's in stock" email to my junk folder so I've resigned myself to never winning the mail lottery. At least with BST I get to decide if the asking price is worth what I'm willing to pay for the knife.

Without BST there are several knives in my collection that I would have not been able to try so I'm satisified. Yea, there seems to be a few faster on the trigger who always have available in demand knives to sell at a premium ...but in the end that helps those of us willing to pay a bit of a premium to get the unobtanium of the day.

Is it entirely fair? Probably not, but I've said that before about being able to afford gear that most culinary professionals cannot.


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## labor of love (Sep 4, 2017)

Every buyer makes a choice, and that decision is for them to make alone.


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## Barmoley (Sep 4, 2017)

I agree with TheCaptain. I wish these knives were not as expensive and difficult to get and to me they are over priced. This doesn't mean it is so for others. I am against protecting adults from themselves, these knives are not essentials, they are toys. If someone wants to pay a lot for Shigs and Katos, let them, who am I to tell them they don't know what they are doing. It would be very elitist of me to assume I know better what someone else needs, wants and how much money they want and can spend. Now, this means that I will never try one of these knives, but there are great knives at 1/3 the price that work for me.


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## WildBoar (Sep 4, 2017)

^^^I totally agree with the 3 posts above. IMO it is not for KKF to 'protect' new buyers. Sure, that Shig costs $200 less if you get it from a vendor, but you may be waiting 12 months for it to actually happen...

It is so easy for potential buyers to check prices and price history online (not only on KKF and KKF, but on many vendor sites as well), there should not be an expectation that prices asked on B/S/T are 'vetted' by anyone to ensure no one can ever actually work hard to obtain a hard-to-get knife and then sell it for an amount that may take that work/ effort into account.


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## Anton (Sep 4, 2017)

You can't control this 


It also goes both ways 
I've bought plenty of knives at really good value where I could have not gotten them otherwise


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## tgfencer (Sep 4, 2017)

I read this and was going to just grab the popcorn and watch, but who can resist a freshly opened can of worms? Here are a few random thoughts hastily thrown out in no particular order of importance or clarity. Hope everyone's having a good day!

-Regulation of the BST to the scale that would be required to address this problem-if it could even be agreed by a majority of us to be an problem-is something that would take a whole lot of time on the moderators part, probably divide the community, and not serve any truly constructive or worthwhile purpose.

-The value someone places on their personal possessions is not something an outside individual can ever accurately assess or repudiate (one man's trash is another man's treasure etc, etc..).

-This is a commodity market, these are commodities not necessities. Pricing is not dictated by any moral obligation, by rather by demand and desire.

-No one can run much of a business or make any kind of decent living buying and reselling the rarer knives that pop up here and there on the forum. And if there are those who can, well, I guess just color me begrudgingly impressed.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 4, 2017)

Two words: Caveat emptor.


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## apathetic (Sep 4, 2017)

That is an interesting point here. But just one question comes to mind, shouldn't people be allowed to post the current (official vendors) prices on a thread no matter if the item in question is priced under or over the market value?


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## dwalker (Sep 4, 2017)

Market value is largely determined by the BST forum. If items are priced too high, they will not sell. It seems to me that some vendors undervalue these items, as clearly they go for more. Some vendors price them high and they sit around for a while. If somebody puts a Kato or Shig (I assume these are the items we are discussing here) on BST, and they sell in a matter of minutes or hours, I'd say that is at or under market value. Free markets work themselves out. Maybe this is easy for me to say because I think Katos and Shigs are overpriced from any vendor, and the only reason people want them so bad is because they can't have them. As far as a newbie being taken for a ride, shame on them for not doing a little research before dropping 1k+ on a knife. I bet this is a rare occurrence anyway. Most people who buy these at a premium have been trying to get them for a while and are ok with the upcharge. Just my .02


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## StonedEdge (Sep 4, 2017)

I completely disagree with OP. People have to make informed decisions. Also in a free market people should be allowed to do with their property as they wish. 

I say deal with it, and if you don't like it, simply ignore it. These sellers are not harming you in any way shape or form. No one should have to sell something for a net loss just because you don't like high prices.


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## Panamapeet (Sep 4, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> I completely disagree with OP. People have to make informed decisions. Also in a free market people should be allowed to do with their property as they wish.
> 
> I say deal with it, and if you don't like it, simply ignore it. These sellers are not harming you in any way shape or form. No one should have to sell something for a net loss just because you don't like high prices.



I think you may have misread my post. I do not say people are not free to do with their stuff as they please, nor that anyone is harming me personally, nor that people should sell at a loss. My point is that it is against what I (personally) think KKF wants/should be and the BST rules. If people want to trade knives for profit they should adhere to the rules that exist for professionals, that's all I'm saying.


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## StonedEdge (Sep 4, 2017)

Still disagreeing with you. Selling something for a profit does not necessarily constitute operating a business. What I'm saying is that if you own something, you can chose to let go of it for whatever you deem fair (wether you agree with them on their selling price or not is irrelevant). 

The market will decide if the price is too high, as has happened on the BST numerous times. 

Also how would you go about implementation policy to restrict the amount by which people are allowed to sell items for? Would there be some sort of panel of people who must approve your asking price for an item on BST? Seems ridiculous and time consuming, not to mention nearly impossible considering the mods on here are volunteering their time. 

Did I mention I disagree with you?


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## Panamapeet (Sep 4, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Still disagreeing with you. Selling something for a profit does not necessarily constitute operating a business. What I'm saying is that if you own something, you can chose to let go of it for whatever you deem fair (wether you agree with them on their selling price or not is irrelevant).
> 
> The market will decide if the price is too high, as has happened on the BST numerous times.
> 
> Did I mention I disagree with you?



No harm in disagreeing. And for what its worth I totally agree that selling something with a profit once does not constitute a business. But just because someone does not operate under some sort of business or trade name does not also mean that it is not a business... And of course people can try to sell for whatever price they like, I'm with you on that, but not if that means they run a business when that is not allowed.


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## StonedEdge (Sep 4, 2017)

I think I see your point now..? Your beef is with people who pretend to not run a business re-selling knives on here, but who you suspect are actually running a business from the re-selling of expensive or rare items?

If so, I'm sure a mod would have dropped that type of activity down if it were a blatant infringement of the BST rules.

What about people who up-sell less expensive items? Are they on your radar too for running BST businesses as well?

Once again, no one is putting a gun to anyone's head and telling them to buy. Nobody is getting swindled as far as I can tell. 

Call me crazy but I see nothing wrong. If someone wants to capitalize on the rising prices and dropping supply of an item I say all the power to them..wether they do it once a year or once a week


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## Panamapeet (Sep 4, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> I think I see your point now..? Your beef is with people who pretend to not run a business re-selling knives on here, but who you suspect are actually running a business from the re-selling of expensive or rare items?
> 
> If so, I'm sure a mod would have dropped that type of activity down if it were a blatant infringement of the BST rules.
> 
> ...



You could even run a business with $1 items for all I care, kato and shig were just (obvious) examples. I have no issue with someone selling for more than they initially paid, for instance when selling pieces that were bought as part of a collection, but if someone continously buys items and on-sells for xx% more after mere days, how is that not running a business?

For completeness sake: no one is on 'my radar' and its not my business to deal with in the end so please do not insinuate that that is the case, that's not fair.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 4, 2017)

Spipet said:


> ... if someone continously buys items and on-sells for xx% more after mere days ...



I don't think anyone active in the forum even comes close to meeting that criterion. 

Might I suggest that you are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist?

Rick


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## Anton (Sep 4, 2017)

Yup 

It's a free market after all, knives, cars or avocados


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## StonedEdge (Sep 4, 2017)

Well to be honest and fair, to arrive at your conclusion you definitely would of had to have examples in mind of some members and their BST practices.....but anyway,

I think I understand what you're saying now. Seems to me that your gripe is with the definition of a "business" (or lack thereof) under the forums rules and not with anything or anyone in particular (am I getting this right? Correct me if I'm not) 

In that case I guess it's up to the moderators to act as they see fit, perhaps if only on a case-by case basis? 

Either way catch and release type re-selling practices don't bother me even if the individual is looking for a decent pay day, I'm too poor to even look into most BST posts lol 

I do, however, completely see how someone could get around the vendor/business status of this forum and sell many items under guise of being a private seller. But I think it would be pretty obvious after some time, no? And then the mods would come in and do their thing anyway.

My point is let's not turn an ant hill into a mountain and potentially complicate the operation of the BST on account of a small handful of cases. 

Eager to see what other members think about this.


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## Iggy (Sep 4, 2017)

I think you have to see this in two ways...of course it's an a******e move to buy a knife from a vendor and sell it imidiately for a higher price. That's just bad character. But of course... it's up to everyone to make this choice. So.. if you don't think there's anything wrong with it... it's a free world. Mind your own business 

In the end... if you dislike this business approach... there's only one way. Stop overhyping knives and don't buy them 

On the other hand... at least here in germany.... you would call it "Gewinnabsicht" (= profit aim). These means that's not a hobby anymore. It's a job. You have to tax this or you are commiting tax fraud.
So... basically not really an option for us. Simple as that 

Regards, Iggy


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## Panamapeet (Sep 4, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Well to be honest and fair, to arrive at your conclusion you definitely would of had to have examples in mind of some members and their BST practices.....but anyway,
> 
> I think I understand what you're saying now. Seems to me that your gripe is with the definition of a "business" (or lack thereof) under the forums rules and not with anything or anyone in particular (am I getting this right? Correct me if I'm not)
> 
> ...



Of course it is for the mods to decide, they are responsible and have the power to do something about violations of the rules. Also agree that it would complicate BST, but we can stick with theory. To add something else, maybe the following example makes sense. Say you're knife vendor A, selling knife B, available in limited supply, for $200 per knife. You pay KKF a yearly sum to have your own page on the forums and interact with your customers. A couple times a year you see someone who bought knife B from you and on-sells it for $300. Now you have paid a sum to KKF so they can support others making a profit on your knives. I might be wrong or out of place and it is just a made up example, but that doesn't seem right to me.



Iggy said:


> I think you have to see this in two ways...of course it's an a******e move to buy a knife from a vendor and sell it imidiately for a higher price. That's just bad character. But of course... it's up to everyone to make this choice. So.. if you don't think there's anything wrong with it... it's a free world. Mind your own business
> 
> In the end... if you dislike this business approach... there's only one way. Stop overhyping knives and don't buy them
> 
> ...



I agree on the latter, and it works the same over here .


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## WildBoar (Sep 4, 2017)

I buy a knife for $200. I spent 2 hours of my time scoring the knife, handling the financial transaction, etc. I unpack it, look it over, maybe do a touch-up, rewrap and make a new ad, which all took another hour. So I have 3 hours into it. My pay rate is $45/ hr. So that is $135. I list and sell the knife for $300. So did I make $100 'profit', or did I give someone a deal by selling them what is now worth $335 for $300?


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## dwalker (Sep 4, 2017)

If a vendor on here has a problem with someone buying a knifed and immediately selling it for a profit, he or she should either raise their price on the item and/or never sell to that individual again. Whining about it accomplishes nothing. The mods setting price limits or killing any sale that might be for profit seems to me to be impossible. Or am I missing something?


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## chiffonodd (Sep 4, 2017)

I agree with OP's underlying point, in principle. I have seen threads where a member who obviously has a lot of resources will purchase a knife and then turn around and sell it on BST for a significant markup. This most often seems to arise when a knife that is known to offer particularly high value for the price point becomes scarce. Someone will buy up remaining stock then price gouge on BST. I don't like it and I doubt most find such behavior to conform to the spirit of BST.

But from a practical standpoint, I don't see how this could be regulated. We don't know what's actually going through someone's head. Maybe the person has put some work into the knife, who knows. Any sort of blanket rules would create problems on an individual basis. And who gets to set the criteria, and how would you know what the criteria should be?

Bottom line, I think the vast majority of BST transactions are conducted in good faith. I would leave well enough alone unless something happens on a case by case basis that is truly predatory.


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## alterwisser (Sep 4, 2017)

It's a free world. Free market. NO ONE is forced to buy a knife at ANY price. This is not abusing a monopoly like the makers of the EpiPen (a life saving drug!) or driving up prices of food/water for a population in danger of starving.

If you don't like the price, don't buy it. If you don't care about the price because your daddy gave you more money than you can piss away in a lifetime: good for you and tough for others.

Supply and demand. That's just what this is. Nothing more, nothing less. 

If someone snatches a Shig and resells it for double the price a day later I say: good for him, and I laugh at the sucker who paid the premium (because I don't think they're all that special, but that's just me!).... but both got what they wanted. I don't know why anyone (especially not a moderator) should interfere with that!


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## panda (Sep 4, 2017)

what about car dealers that sell high demand units at above retail price? if you apply that logic in that scenario you will be laughed out of there so fast..


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## malexthekid (Sep 4, 2017)

Firstly, I call BS. The OP has a member in mind. He has already commented in said members BST thread. 

Secondly, it seems you are only a relatively new member so I find it a bit insulting you talking about "how KKF is" like you have been here since day dot. Members have been selling collectable knives for above their retail prices since before KKFs inception.

Also who are you to say if the price is inflated... You can assume you know where said knife was purchased but how can you be sure? Why shouldn't a person be able to attempt to recoup what they thought was market cost if they were swindled. And as has been told many times the market will tell you if you are pricing too high. 

And finally it is just BS. No one has ever sold anywhere near the volume or the market up for this to be any form of business. It makes me question your motive given you insinuate this without giving any evidence of "business practice".


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## foody518 (Sep 4, 2017)

The current BST guidelines about only positive feedback about item and no negative feedback (including commentary of recent pricing from the original vendors) on a sale item protects the situation of those who buy a knife and immediately sell for significant markup, without additional modding that merits a higher price through improvements. This also biases sale threads towards an information asymmetry between sellers and potential buyers by eliminating certain kinds of contributions from other folks who may have knowledge or input about the item in question 

The free market comments would make more sense to me in an environment where the guidelines in place are not entrenching more information asymmetry than that which unavoidably exists in free market transactions? Imagine a situation in which there is a reviews system, but the only reviews that ever are allowed to show up are positive reviews, and critiques or concerns are not shown on the same page?

Not that there aren't some buyers who will always bite


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## malexthekid (Sep 4, 2017)

foody518 said:


> The current BST guidelines about only positive feedback about item and no negative feedback (including commentary of recent pricing from the original vendors) on a sale item protects the situation of those who buy a knife and immediately sell for significant markup, without additional modding that merits a higher price through improvements. This also biases sale threads towards an information asymmetry between sellers and potential buyers by eliminating certain kinds of contributions from other folks who may have knowledge or input about the item in question
> 
> The free market comments would make more sense to me in an environment where the guidelines in place are not entrenching more information asymmetry than that which unavoidably exists in free market transactions? As in, if the only reviews that ever are allowed to show up are positive reviews, and critiques are not shown on the same page?
> 
> Not that there aren't some buyers who will always bite


Considering no one has the time to fact check statements I believe the current guidelines are perfectly adequate.

Why should I be punished because someone disagrees with what I believe is a fair price, and muddy the water with subjective information (afterall you have no idea what I paid for any given knife unless I tell you said source and or purchase price).

Saying that I believe, if it was actually possible, a rating systems for transactions is what would be of benefit.


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## Kippington (Sep 4, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> I have a stupid spam filter that sends every "it's in stock" email to my junk folder so I've resigned myself to never winning the mail lottery.



FYI you can modify your spam filter. If you move a bunch of emails from your spam folder to your inbox, your account learns to stop delegating this kind of email to your spam folder. Similarly, if you move a bunch of emails from your inbox to your spam folder, you're 'teaching' your spam folder to do this automatically in the future.



Anton said:


> It's a free market after all, knives, cars or avocados



Does this mean I can sell an avocado on BST? :biggrin:


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## dwalker (Sep 4, 2017)

Kippington said:


> Does this mean I can sell an avocado on BST? [emoji3]


Only in the non knife BST


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## Anton (Sep 4, 2017)

They have special avocados in Santa Monica 

They say, people come and pay up to $5 each. I heard some are afraid of negotiating the price due to fear of over ripeness and missing out. They are rare


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## valgard (Sep 4, 2017)

and there can only be comments about how good your avocado is even if it's rotten so nothing to lose, you might be able to swindle someone desperate for an avocado &#129361;


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## dwalker (Sep 4, 2017)

If someone has worked the avocado into guacamole, you can expect to pay more......or less......depending on your perspective.


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## valgard (Sep 4, 2017)

for the record I just think the free market talk is BS if only cheering is allowed


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## tgfencer (Sep 4, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Two words: Caveat emptor.



Someone give this man a Kato...or an avocado!


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## dwalker (Sep 4, 2017)

valgard said:


> for the record I just think the free market talk is BS if only cheering is allowed


Elaborate please.


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## Anton (Sep 4, 2017)

dwalker said:


> Elaborate please.



May lead to dark and forbidden places ...


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## malexthekid (Sep 4, 2017)

valgard said:


> for the record I just think the free market talk is BS if only cheering is allowed


For the record cheering isn't necessarily allowed either. In recent years there has been a softening of the policy to all "GLWS" comments and general comments on the knife but as far as I am aware generally "cheering" doesn't happen/isn't allowed to happen.

Also "cheering" had significantly less impact than negativity. Remember the old adage it only takes one negative comment to undo 10 positive comments. And unless the negativity can be guaranteed to be truthful then I think the current is the best representative of the market.

After all, BST in no ways discourages buyers from doing their research.


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## brooksie967 (Sep 4, 2017)

Following


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## Mute-on (Sep 4, 2017)

To lend some perspective, in a very few instances when an item advertised on BST has been priced above an available online vendor offering, and is slow selling as a result, I have PM'd the seller to let them know. 

This is information only for their benefit, and is provided free of any judgment. 

However, if someone was to buy an item from BST at a higher price than offered elsewhere, I'm afraid it's caveat emptor squared. Do your own research and don't expect others to do it for you. It is your money, your choice, and your responsibility. 

This IS a free market, and we are privileged to have access to it.


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## pete84 (Sep 5, 2017)

If you don't like the price, don't buy it. No need to be fussy - nobody likes a cry baby.

P.S. - Just my opinion about things in general, of course.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Sep 5, 2017)

WildBoar said:


> I buy a knife for $200. I spent 2 hours of my time scoring the knife, handling the financial transaction, etc. I unpack it, look it over, maybe do a touch-up, rewrap and make a new ad, which all took another hour. So I have 3 hours into it. My pay rate is $45/ hr. So that is $135. I list and sell the knife for $300. So did I make $100 'profit', or did I give someone a deal by selling them what is now worth $335 for $300?



I don't think this is correct calculation, unless you have a business of making/selling cutlery. 
I have a full time job in IT and so I could calculate some hourly pay rate. But that only true for IT. If I start doing something else, like cooking or making knives  my hourly pay rate would be completely different due to different experience and education in those fields. 

Therefore I don't think its fair to add you hourly rate when you pack/unpack/sharpen/relist knife.
And if knives are part of your business, then OP has a valid point.


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## banjo1071 (Sep 5, 2017)

Everyone should be allowed to buy and sell knives at a pricepoint of their choice, its a free market. 
But if you do it with profit aim, you are dealer, and shopuld be treated as one and pay like the other do.
Its perfectly fine to make some money here. But these guys should be treated as all the other pros..


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## banjo1071 (Sep 5, 2017)

tgfencer said:


> Someone give this man a Kato...or an avocado!



hmmm Kavotado


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## Marek07 (Sep 5, 2017)

banjo1071 said:


> hmmm Kavotado


Or an avokato... ?


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## alterwisser (Sep 5, 2017)

Marek07 said:


> Or an avokato... ?



Affokato!?! 

Sign me up.... coffee, ice cream and a sharp knife? What's not to like!?


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## alterwisser (Sep 5, 2017)

banjo1071 said:


> Everyone should be allowed to buy and sell knives at a pricepoint of their choice, its a free market.
> But if you do it with profit aim, you are dealer, and shopuld be treated as one and pay like the other do.
> Its perfectly fine to make some money here. But these guys should be treated as all the other pros..



If you do it on a daily basis I would agree that you're a dealer..... but I doubt this is the case given how FEW Shigs and Katos are even available.

Some of us here make the word "profit" sound evil. I wonder who here does NOT live in a capitalist country?! 

If you denounce profit making for knives, do you also denounce it for other products? It's perfectly fine to make a profit. If you were lucky winning the Katofusa lottery but really don't want to keep a knife that expensive, why not sell it for what someone else is willing to pay? If someone here would tell me that I can sell a knife only for as much as I paid for it (or less) I would say "fu** you" and sell it somewhere else! This is none of your business because it's my knife and it's between me and the buyer.

That is the reason why I get the negative comment restriction. I do NOT agree with some of the culture and rules regarding comments here, but in this case I think there's some reason. IMHO there are way too many trolls who just want to be a party pooper and call people out. 

I'd rather pay the price of having a few overpriced knives out here and not having the ability to call people out on it then risking that some trolls ruin a sale of a perfectly fine knife.

I guess it's kinda like prioritising not sending any innocent people to jail over having guilty people walk free ....


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## CB1968 (Sep 5, 2017)

I have lost count of the amount of knives I have sold on this forum probably at least 25+ and of all those knives I would say I have made a profit on maybe two or possibly three, i buy knives to try out and if I don't like them they get flicked in order to buy another one, the quest for the ideal knife is seemingly never ending!! 
If anybody thinks that buying and reselling knives on this forum is going to result in consistently good profits I am afraid to say that you are delirious, you would be better of investing in shares, property etc.
However if you were lucky enough to have landed on a Kramer from ten years ago or scored a Shig or Kato before the prices became ridiculous I would say half your luck make as much profit as you can because profits in knives are far and few between.


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## banjo1071 (Sep 5, 2017)

CB1968 said:


> I have lost count of the amount of knives I have sold on this forum probably at least 25+ and of all those knives I would say I have made a profit on maybe two or possibly three, i buy knives to try out and if I don't like them they get flicked in order to buy another one, the quest for the ideal knife is seemingly never ending!!
> If anybody thinks that buying and reselling knives on this forum is going to result in consistently good profits I am afraid to say that you are delirious, you would be better of investing in shares, property etc.
> However if you were lucky enough to have landed on a Kramer from ten years ago or scored a Shig or Kato before the prices became ridiculous I would say half your luck make as much profit as you can because profits in knives are far and few between.



True. But the case, that this threat is obviously about, is a bit different. The knife was bought of a dealer and rersold very soon after with a decent profit. This ist not tryout and sell, but clearly aiming for profit. Which is absolutly fine for me btw...


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## alterwisser (Sep 5, 2017)

banjo1071 said:


> True. But the case, that this threat is obviously about, is a bit different. The knife was bought of a dealer and rersold very soon after with a decent profit. This ist not tryout and sell, but clearly aiming for profit. Which is absolutly fine for me btw...



Absolutely.... and to state it AGAIN: this is a one time thing for any seller doing this as NO ONE will (most likely) be so lucky to score Sigs/Katos multiple times ....

If THAT happens we could talk. But what good does it do? Sellers would just move to eBay and if anything it would devalue the BST section in this forum ...


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## Panamapeet (Sep 5, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Firstly, I call BS. The OP has a member in mind. He has already commented in said members BST thread.
> 
> Secondly, it seems you are only a relatively new member so I find it a bit insulting you talking about "how KKF is" like you have been here since day dot. Members have been selling collectable knives for above their retail prices since before KKFs inception.
> 
> ...



I think you should tone it down a little. I am not mentioning any names nor have I any specific people in mind. This is just meant as an honest discussion about a topic that people think differently about (with reference to the number of responses in this thread). No need to lower yourself to arguments like 'you are new here' or 'this is ********'. It just doesn't add to your credibility to be honest. 



foody518 said:


> The current BST guidelines about only positive feedback about item and no negative feedback (including commentary of recent pricing from the original vendors) on a sale item protects the situation of those who buy a knife and immediately sell for significant markup, without additional modding that merits a higher price through improvements. This also biases sale threads towards an information asymmetry between sellers and potential buyers by eliminating certain kinds of contributions from other folks who may have knowledge or input about the item in question
> 
> The free market comments would make more sense to me in an environment where the guidelines in place are not entrenching more information asymmetry than that which unavoidably exists in free market transactions? Imagine a situation in which there is a reviews system, but the only reviews that ever are allowed to show up are positive reviews, and critiques or concerns are not shown on the same page?
> 
> Not that there aren't some buyers who will always bite



Hear hear.



Mute-on said:


> To lend some perspective, in a very few instances when an item advertised on BST has been priced above an available online vendor offering, and is slow selling as a result, I have PM'd the seller to let them know.
> 
> This is information only for their benefit, and is provided free of any judgment.
> 
> ...



This is not a free market though, as the BST section is regulated by rules.



pete84 said:


> If you don't like the price, don't buy it. No need to be fussy - nobody likes a cry baby.
> 
> P.S. - Just my opinion about things in general, of course.



Again, not crying about prices. Just wanted to discuss this as different points of view are possible . No need to call names.



alterwisser said:


> If you do it on a daily basis I would agree that you're a dealer..... but I doubt this is the case given how FEW Shigs and Katos are even available.
> 
> Some of us here make the word "profit" sound evil. I wonder who here does NOT live in a capitalist country?!
> 
> ...



Making a profit isn't bad (don't get your reference to capitalist countries though, as far as I know kkf is not a country). It is bad if it's not allowed by the rules though...


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## malexthekid (Sep 5, 2017)

Spipet said:


> I think you should tone it down a little. I am not mentioning any names nor have I any specific people in mind. This is just meant as an honest discussion about a topic that people think differently about (with reference to the number of responses in this thread). No need to lower yourself to arguments like 'you are new here' or 'this is ********'. It just doesn't add to your credibility to be honest



I am not lowering myself to anything (And what on earth did I say that needs toning down?). It is a statement of fact. You have been active on this forum for less than a year, so any comments about "its just not in the spirit of the community" should be taken in that context. And in regards to this are just contrary to history. Knives have always sold for profit if they are rare and desirable. And no one has ever consistently sold knives at a profit to be considered anywhere near a business.

Also sorry but you question my credibility and state you have mentioned no names and have no one in mind yet you post this less than a week after making negative and quite honestly insulting remarks to another member in his thread. So sorry if I read between the lines there but to me it is obvious that you at least had someone in mind as a trigger.

So to answer your hypothetical of course if someone was making a business off of it they would have to register to be a vendor. Forum rules are clear on this.

So basically you just feel that people should only sell knives for what you deem fair and you should be able to male spurious comments about transactions you have no involvement in?


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## dwalker (Sep 5, 2017)

If it is too expensive from your perspective, don't buy it. There is real economic research that clearly shows the benefit of price gouging. It feels unsavory, but actually makes in need items available to more people. It cuts down on hoarding from people who already have and are considering acquiring more. This is true even in natural disaster events like the floods in Houston. It feels dirty, but taking the feelings out of it, data shows more people in need are able to get things they need because of it. The net result is positive.


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## Panamapeet (Sep 5, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> I am not lowering myself to anything (And what on earth did I say that needs toning down?). It is a statement of fact. You have been active on this forum for less than a year, so any comments about "its just not in the spirit of the community" should be taken in that context. And in regards to this are just contrary to history. Knives have always sold for profit if they are rare and desirable. And no one has ever consistently sold knives at a profit to be considered anywhere near a business.
> 
> Also sorry but you question my credibility and state you have mentioned no names and have no one in mind yet you post this less than a week after making negative and quite honestly insulting remarks to another member in his thread. So sorry if I read between the lines there but to me it is obvious that you at least had someone in mind as a trigger.
> 
> ...



Please explain how my comment was insulting to anyone in that specific thread you are talking about, I would love to hear . I do not feel like people should only sell knives for what I deem fair, it is definitely not me who should set prices. All I'm saying is that if people clearly are aiming for a profit that they should adhere to the rules that exist. 

And for the record, people do not have to be a member of something for ages in order to be able to think and have an opinion. I always thought it was proper manners to let everyone think for themselves and if you don't agree you can provide valid arguments. As long as you judge people by the duration of their membership (by no means a valid argument in this respect) I'm not taking you seriously, I'm sorry.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 5, 2017)

WOW, its getting hot in here.

Walker, That's some deep S#it right there. Quite insightful if I might add.

Now Sipet and Alex, Nock it off. All you need is love and knives right?



dwalker said:


> If it is too expensive from your perspective, don't buy it. There is real economic research that clearly shows the benefit of price gouging. It feels unsavory, but actually makes in need items available to more people. It cuts down on hoarding from people who already have and are considering acquiring more. This is true even in natural disaster events like the floods in Houston. It feels dirty, but taking the feelings out of it, data shows more people in need are able to get things they need because of it. The net result is positive.


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## malexthekid (Sep 5, 2017)

Spipet said:


> Please explain how my comment was insulting to anyone in that specific thread you are talking about, I would love to hear . I do not feel like people should only sell knives for what I deem fair, it is definitely not me who should set prices. All I'm saying is that if people clearly are aiming for a profit that they should adhere to the rules that exist.
> 
> And for the record, people do not have to be a member of something for ages in order to be able to think and have an opinion. I always thought it was proper manners to let everyone think for themselves and if you don't agree you can provide valid arguments. As long as you judge people by the duration of their membership (by no means a valid argument in this respect) I'm not taking you seriously, I'm sorry.



Who is losing credibility now?

Sorry but I am not judging you by you duration as a member I am merely using it to add context to your comments.

Your voice has just as much say/sway as mine here, however when you talk of the "community spirit" here then your duration of involvement is a perfectly acceptable form of contextualisation.

For instance there have been quite a fee nasty days here in the past and if a member joined on that day then they would have a very different perception of the community then someone who has been here for years.

And as for that thread, from memory your comment was a snide sarcastic remark about pricing. Which I could find no other way as a not so subtle insulting dig at the original poster of that thread. Maybe I interpretted it wrong however I could see no other way of interpreting. 

Look I have nothing against you, and as many have already pointed out. Selling a knife at a profit is nor against forum rules... and if someone was making a business from reselling knives the forum rules are also quite clear. So I may have jump the gun, however that is how I saw your comments and this thread.


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## fatboylim (Sep 5, 2017)

Thankfully there is no lack of passion... at least you all care... 

Oop, that is the popcorn bell, hold that thought!


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## pete84 (Sep 5, 2017)

The problem isn't that nice things cost a lot of $. The problem is not having enough money to buy the nice things we want. 

(Easier to complain about the former than do something about the latter IMO)

I'm willing to bet most knives would not sell if bought new and someone attempts to "mark-up" and re-sell on BST. Many "lightly used" "like-new" or "only stropped once" kinda knives sell for steep discounts in BST, even examples from notable and popular makers. Thankfully, when I first joined KKF the BST forum allowed me to buy and try knives I could otherwise not be able to afford on a line cook's salary. 

If anything is for sale at a price the OWNER determines is fair to them, and a BUYER agrees to pay said price - I don't see the problem. There are automobiles so rare and desirable amongst collectors that once its sold by the manufacturer new, it actually increases in value. The Ferrari "la Ferrari" was sold new for $1.5 million and they are currently auctioning around $3-5 million, with one having just sold for $7 million (that was a charity auction however). These are for new or nearly new examples that were just made over the last few years.

A Shig or Kato is definitely a Ferrari or Lamborghini of kitchen knives - super nice, but non-essential luxury item. A sharp Tojiro will do the same task nearly as well, but if it can't make you happy - thats not the Tojiro's fault.


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## FoRdLaz (Sep 5, 2017)

dwalker said:


> If it is too expensive from your perspective, don't buy it. There is real economic research that clearly shows the benefit of price gouging. It feels unsavory, but actually makes in need items available to more people. It cuts down on hoarding from people who already have and are considering acquiring more. This is true even in natural disaster events like the floods in Houston. It feels dirty, but taking the feelings out of it, data shows more people in need are able to get things they need because of it. The net result is positive.



+1


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## zetieum (Sep 5, 2017)

Damn! Where is the popcorn? I'll grab some on BST.


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## WildBoar (Sep 5, 2017)

BTW, try to control pricing here on KKF, and the person will likely just list it elsewhere, and those who only hang out on KKF will miss the chance.


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## apathetic (Sep 5, 2017)

How about simply allowing people to write their opinion without this forced positive only comment?


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## TheCaptain (Sep 5, 2017)

Because there are plenty of other areas to post negative opinions on a knife? Doing it on bst doesn't seem like the right place to badmouth something to me? 

:shrugs: YMMV.


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## Panamapeet (Sep 5, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Because there are plenty of other areas to post negative opinions on a knife? Doing it on bst doesn't seem like the right place to badmouth something to me?
> 
> :shrugs: YMMV.



There is a difference between badmouthing and honest criticism/opinions which helps inform prospective buyers though


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## StonedEdge (Sep 5, 2017)

Maybe time to start a "Negative Comments Only" section lol


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## apathetic (Sep 5, 2017)

And in any case, badmouthing in any thread is generally frowned upon here, isn't it?


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## alterwisser (Sep 5, 2017)

apathetic said:


> And in any case, badmouthing in any thread is generally frowned upon here, isn't it?



+1


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## Barmoley (Sep 5, 2017)

In general it is not allowed to comment in any transactions between two parties, unless one is part of the transaction. Does anyone come to a dealership and tells prospective buyers that the car in their opinion is overpriced, or farmers market or anywhere else. BST is not exactly like that, but still why would there be a reason for anyone not related to the sale to comment? I can understand someone saying cool knife, or good luck with the sale, etc since this doesn't really sway anyone one way or another.... Just because internet makes it easy and safe to do so, doesn't mean it is the right or beneficial thing to do.


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## alterwisser (Sep 5, 2017)

Spipet said:


> There is a difference between badmouthing and honest criticism/opinions which helps inform prospective buyers though



Yes..... BUT: is it really your (or any of our) business to give our opinion about a knife in the BST? An opinion neither the seller nor a prospective buyer has specifically asked for?

If a potential buyer publicly asks for our opinion on the knife we are still free to PM him (or her) and voice our concerns and criticism.


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## dwalker (Sep 5, 2017)

I'll get on board with providing criticism on BST when I see " WTS xxx knife. Cuts like ****, fit and finish is awful, uneven grinds, everything sticks to it, incredibly reactive in a bad way, way overpriced. Paid $500 a month ago and can't wait to unload it. $475 shipped".


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## daveb (Sep 5, 2017)

Some interesting stuff in this thread, thank you Spipet for starting it and sharing your opinions.

From my personal perspective as a member and a moderator I can say there ain't no way in hell I'm going to become the BST policeman. He bought it for X and now he's selling it for X plus? I'm not going to waste my limited google-fu on checking prices. 

To me the WTS thread belongs to the member that started it, he alone can set prices, terms, geographic constraints and negotiate offers. I think its regrettable that there has to be a rule against bad manners but that's what the "no negative" is about. Nothing negative about the knife, the price, the member or the original retailer while under the BST umbrella. I don't give twoshits if one thinks they are saving the world from an overpriced knife. Not here.

We have kicked around the method some forums use - member posts the knife and thread is closed to any comment afterward. I like this method and don't see it changing any time soon.

I don't like popcorn but am going to fire up a stick. As you were.


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## malexthekid (Sep 5, 2017)

Spipet said:


> There is a difference between badmouthing and honest criticism/opinions which helps inform prospective buyers though


Which people are allowed to post in the relevant forum areas.

How would you feel if I was to jump on to your current WTS thread and post my "opinion" on that knife. Which may or may not be based on real experience?

Conversely consider that you are looking at a knife on BST and you have 3 pages of "GLWS" Great looking blade" and then I pop in and say "way overpriced, can find cleaner examples elsewhere for less" or "that looks messed up, I wouldn't touch it" (or what seem a semi reasonable criticism). Would that not sway you away from the sale more then all those other responses? Yes they may be valid, but they are not fact just opinion for an unrelated party and could easily just be from an a-hole that enjoys stirring the pot.


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## Matus (Sep 5, 2017)

I agree with daveb here, even though I hope we will not see the 'upselling' of rare items to spread around here. BTW I have also seen stones being sold that way. 

Also - some may be good with grabbing a not properly described stone or knife elsewhere (eBay, Buyee, etc.) and selling it with a considerable profit at a market value with proper description on KKF. I can not blame them for doing that.


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## TheCaptain (Sep 5, 2017)

apathetic said:


> And in any case, badmouthing in any thread is generally frowned upon here, isn't it?


Not necessarily true. I pop up whenever shig nakiris are discussed and am pretty honest about what a pos I thought mine was. Got a few amens and even some pm's advising me on where shig did better work.

I don't think a bst thread would be appropriate to post my negative opinion. Especially because you never know how much work/better at cleaning up stuff that other member may be. I'm frequently tempted to buy one of Nutmegs' shig nakiris to see if I really am missing put on something.


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## malexthekid (Sep 5, 2017)

Matus said:


> I agree with daveb here, even though I hope we will not see the 'upselling' of rare items to spread around here. BTW I have also seen stones being sold that way.
> 
> Also - some may be good with grabbing a not properly described stone or knife elsewhere (eBay, Buyee, etc.) and selling it with a considerable profit at a market value with proper description on KKF. I can not blame them for doing that.


Can I ask why you don't want to see "upselling" of rare items?

Would you prefer they are sold to a different community? Personally I would prefer they are at least attempted to be sold here so our collectors and users get the chance to grab it for fair market value (after all no one forces you to buy off BST). Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by upselling?

Also for perspective we are looking to provide a solution to something without a problem. In my recent memory there has not be a real instance of this recently.

It seems what all started this was a member bought a set of desirable knives, but only wanted one out of the set so put the other up for WTT. He was asked for his trade value, so he stated what it is worth for him to trade. (Some negative comments were made and removed) and then this thread pops up.

Now I may be making false assumptions about the links but that is the timeline in events as I see them.

Finally to the "we must protect the newbies" I just call rubbish on that for this instance. We are predominately talking rare collectables, which if a newbie is throwing that money at a blade then perhaps he has the sort of deep pockets that don't need protection.

The only instance I can recall for the lower end was a knife worth several hundred where it was pointed out it was available new for less, however he was selling for less than he paid just that he bought from vendor A whereas vendor b had it for sale for less. Now that is a conundrum. Do we protect the newbie or a long standing forum member that may have just chosen the wrong vendor.


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## Matus (Sep 5, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Can I ask why you don't want to see "upselling" of rare items?



I see I did not explain myself particularly well here. Let me explain.

What I mean by 'upselling' is that someone snatches a 'rare' item (like a new Shig or Kato from Maxim) with the only intend to sell it at a profit. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Nothing more.


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## malexthekid (Sep 5, 2017)

Matus said:


> I see I did not explain myself particularly well here. Let me explain.
> 
> What I mean by 'upselling' is that someone snatches a 'rare' item (like a new Shig or Kato from Maxim) with the only intend to sell it at a profit. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Nothing more.


Ahh I get you. Totally agree.


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## ynot1985 (Sep 5, 2017)

Matus said:


> I see I did not explain myself particularly well here. Let me explain.
> 
> What I mean by 'upselling' is that someone snatches a 'rare' item (like a new Shig or Kato from Maxim) with the only intend to sell it at a profit. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Nothing more.



When I read the first post from Spipet on this thread, I thought he was alluding to the act of scalping that he is not happy with. Literally, buying a knife with the sole intention of flipping it for a substantial profit within a short amount of time after purchase.


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## panda (Sep 5, 2017)

what makes me scratch my head is, why is this even a topic of discussion??


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## tgfencer (Sep 5, 2017)

panda said:


> what makes me scratch my head is, why is this even a topic of discussion??



Got to have a good barnburner every now and again  Though I do agree with you.


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## apathetic (Sep 6, 2017)

Matus said:


> I see I did not explain myself particularly well here. Let me explain.
> 
> What I mean by 'upselling' is that someone snatches a 'rare' item (like a new Shig or Kato from Maxim) with the only intend to sell it at a profit. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Nothing more.



+1


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