# Fake Ashi Honyaki Sold



## khashy (Jul 9, 2020)

I have come across a knife that was sold as an Ashi Honyaki on one of the usual places for knife and stone sales in Japan, which I believe is in fact not an Ashi.

Let me start by saying that I have no horses in this race, the sale has absolutely nothing with me and I do not know who has bought the knife.

Furthermore I cannot 'prove' this, only present the rationale as to why I believe it not to be an Ashi.

Lastly, if the person that has bought this knife is reading this, I am sorry - I do not mean to offend you, however I do feel that given the premiums that an Ashi honyakis demand, the knife community deserves to know if they are potentially being conned.

Here are the photos of the knife which was sold as an Ashi honyaki for a vast sum of money:



























Why I believe this is a not an Ashi Honyaki:

I have had a fascination/obsession with Ashi-san's work for a very long time and my OCD nature has meant that I have spent an astonishingly unhealthy amount of time researching and looking for Ashi honyakis. In the process I have been fortunate enough to get a hold of a few - thankfully this was before the magnificence of Ashi honyakis were widely discovered, otherwise I would not have been able to afford them.

I do realize that this does not make me an 'expert' by any means, however the point I am trying to make is that I have seen a significant number of Ashi honyakis in person or in great details via the grace of other Ashi honyaki owners who have been kind enough to share the details of prized possesions with me.

I think many people will agree that an Ashi honyaki is a piece of art brought to life through the medium of deferentially hardened steel. It is a distinctive blade and the unique style of hamon, profile and polish is like no other blade. Therefore one cannot easily mistake an Ashi honyaki for something else or something else for an Ashi honyaki. This is why Ashi commands such eyewatering prices these days, they are very difficult to come by and those who have them do not tend to let go - when you see one in person, you are ensnared in its infinite beauty...

Please take the time to do a search for Ashi honyaki blades and look at the photos. Compare the hamon, the polish and the profile across several images of different knives. Then compare those to this thing. It should be obvious enough to anyone.

Anyway, poetics aside, this blade looked off to me as soon as I saw it advertised as an Ashi honyaki and in order to make sure I am not going mad, I shared it with a number of extremely knowledgeable people in our community, including some of our absolute oracles to ask their opinions of it.

While a number of them said that they cannot tell one way or another with absolute certainty, not a single person said that they felt this blade is a real Ashi honyaki - not one. I have nothing but respect for everyone I asked about this and would have taken any of their words blindly had a single one of them said that they think this is a legit Ashi.

So, what do we have here? The blade is an Ittosai Kotetsu branded blade. Ittosai Kotetsu are a very well respected brand that work with many craftsmen. They have had Ashi honyakis for sure, however Ashi hamono are not the only suppliers of honyaki gyutos to Ittosai. There are examples of Ittosai branded honyaki gyutos that are not Ashis and were not sold as such. I do not for one second believe that Ittosai would have sold this blade as an Ashi. The con is when the seller on the secondary market put this blade up for sale and went to great lengths, weaving stories of how he has confirmed it with X, Y and Z and his contact and his contact's wholesaler and he assures us that it is definitely an Ashi and that the buyer should trust him. 

By the way, this same seller sold another knife for exactly the same price previously. This time it was not sold as an Ashi however the photos of the box posted were the exact same photos as this listing. The photo with the sticker on the box is the exact same photo on both sales.

So maybe calling this blade a 'fake' is unfair - Ittosai sold a honyaki blade as they have been doing. They never called it an Ashi and so this blade isn't a fake Ashi per se, it is 'some' honyaki blade. Then along comes one of the well known knife and stone flippers in Japan and posts it explicitly as an Ashi honyaki and prices it accordingly. Now I do acknowledge that this seller might have unknowingly bought it from someone else as an Ashi and has just flipped it as what he bought it as, and you can go back in this unknown chain as much as you like, but at some point in this chain someone conned someone else and that was subsequently passed down the chain until this very last sale. 

For all we know this blade may/will show up for sale again as an Ashi honyaki, so please be mindful of all the malpractice that is going on in the knife world right now before dropping vast amounts of money on these blades.

The truth is that certain individuals in Japan have caught onto our thirst for certain blades. Don't get me wrong I am more than happy to put my hands up and join the massive queues for our most beloved makers - they have become hot property for a reason: they are amazing! 

This has resulted in some individuals with access to sought after blades, milking the situations and in doing so - to put it lightly - be less than truthful (knowingly or unknowingly). We have known about fake Shigs for some time now, we see Katos pop up on auction left right and center. These are now being advertised as Blue1 and we know Kato-san does not use Blue1, only Blue2. Then there are the vast swathes of custom orders placed by a lot of us (myself included) for such and such maker and such and such sharpener and in the end after months/years of waiting, we end up with 'some' knife that has not been anywhere near those craftsmen; At least in these instances we are not paying through the nose - at some point I will write more about this with proof of why these blades are lies, but that is for another time.

Then there is this - an overt attempt to con an unsuspecting knife enthusiast into buying their very own 'Ashi' unicorn. 

This sale is unfortunately done, someone has paid for it and that cannot be undone. The point of this post was to ask everyone to be mindful of the dirty practices that are going on. 

In terms of an Ashi honyaki; If you cannot tell it's an Ashi honyaki from 400 miles away while juggling hippos giving birth to giant size venus fly traps on fire, stop! ask questions, ask the community, ask somebody and verify as much as you can that what you are getting is in fact what is advertised.

Again, these are my own views, I'm happy to (and actually hope to) be proven wrong and I sincerely hope that this knife and more like it do not get mis-sold for eyewatering prices as something they are not.


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## brooksie967 (Jul 9, 2020)

Two things I'd like to touch on .

One: your humble statement that you have a "few" and two: the fact that you openly admitted to respecting me. 

Both are laughable


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## Gregmega (Jul 9, 2020)

PM’d spf


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## khashy (Jul 9, 2020)

brooksie967 said:


> Two things I'd like to touch on .
> 
> One: your humble statement that you have a "few" and two: the fact that you openly admitted to respecting me.
> 
> Both are laughable



Ha! Of course I respect you, rightly so.

You are also well aware of the people I’ve asked about this knife - like I said if any single one of them, yourself included of course, had said this is a real Ashi, I’d have happily accepted it.


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## Anton (Jul 9, 2020)

who bought it?


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## khashy (Jul 9, 2020)

Anton said:


> who bought it?


No idea, I hope no one in our kitchen knife enthusiast community


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## ynot1985 (Jul 9, 2020)

100% not an ashi..

what price point are we talking about for this one?

im still waiting for your ashi collection photo


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## khashy (Jul 9, 2020)

ynot1985 said:


> 100% not an ashi..
> 
> what price point are we talking about for this one?
> 
> im still waiting for your ashi collection photo



Have you seen an Ashi honyaki sold for less than 2k USD these days? I haven’t. So think higher than that.


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## Elliot (Jul 9, 2020)

khashy said:


> Have you seen an Ashi honyaki sold for less than 2k USD these days? I haven’t. So think higher than that.



I can only think of one cough****yougregcough.


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## brooksie967 (Jul 9, 2020)

I have 4 that were under 2k usd. Just saying.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 9, 2020)

Why not send these pics and the provenance to Hiroshi Ashi. He is very happy to communicate as I've contacted him in the past. There are very few official retailers in Japan so it should be possible to get some definitive answers. And each retailer has their specific specs.
For me I would say this is NOT an Ashi Honyaki. The hamon is too low and it doesn't have the finesse of the real thing (I have 2 so should be able to give a reasonable opinion). What is the size of the blade? Who was the seller? Only a couple guys reliably sell these special knives so even though I doubt some of their claims regarding Kato #2 vs Kato #3 and B#1 steel vs B#2, when they sell an Ashi its the real deal.

Unfortunately the astronomic prices nowadays only encourages some devious activity. I hope I'm wrong, but if real its not Hiroshi's finest work


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## khashy (Jul 9, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Why not send these pics and the provenance to Hiroshi Ashi. He is very happy to communicate as I've contacted him in the past. There are very few official retailers in Japan so it should be possible to get some definitive answers. And each retailer has their specific specs.
> For me I would say this is NOT an Ashi Honyaki. The hamon is too low and it doesn't have the finesse of the real thing (I have 2 so should be able to give a reasonable opinion). What is the size of the blade? Who was the seller? Only a couple guys reliably sell these special knives so even though I doubt some of their claims regarding Kato #2 vs Kato #3 and B#1 steel vs B#2, when they sell an Ashi its the real deal.
> 
> Unfortunately the astronomic prices nowadays only encourages some devious activity. I hope I'm wrong, but if real its not Hiroshi's finest work



Ashi hamono will not want to get involved in this. I imagine if they came out and said it’s not an Ashi, it could be seen as a reflection on Ittosai and they would understandably not want to risk rudeness towards their trading partners.

Agree with your assessment of the blade btw.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 9, 2020)

.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 9, 2020)

ynot1985 said:


> what price point are we talking about for this one?



275,000 yen


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 9, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> 275,000 yen




The handle install is awful. Looks amateurish. Hopefully the buyer paid with a credit card. I'd be doing a charge dispute.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 9, 2020)

khashy said:


> By the way, this same seller sold another knife for exactly the same price previously. This time it was not sold as an Ashi however the photos of the box posted were the exact same photos as this listing. The photo with the sticker on the box is the exact same photo on both sales.



I think the first sale was withdrawn. If memory serves me correctly it was originally listed at 250,000 yen and then relisted a day later at 275,000. On the original page there were zero bids. Mind you... for the 275,000 listing there are zero bids! Go figure... So I don't think another knife was sold. In fact, possibly none were?

This is in NO way a defence of the seller; but I don't recognise them as a flipper? Which is not to say they are definitely not a flipper!




Corradobrit1 said:


> The handle install is awful. Looks amateurish.



Not the best. The waves in the hamon are a bit fat to my eye. I like a tighter grouping.


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## khashy (Jul 9, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> I think the first sale was withdrawn. If memory serves me correctly it was originally listed at 250,000 yen and then relisted a day later at 275,000. On the original page there were zero bids. Mind you... for the 275,000 listing there are zero bids! Go figure... So I don't think another knife was sold. In fact, possibly none were?
> 
> This is in NO way a defence of the seller; but I don't recognise them as a flipper? Which is not to say they are definitely not a flipper!
> 
> ...



This knife was not on auction. It was definitely sold.


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## NO ChoP! (Jul 9, 2020)

I got this Masamoto honyaki'ish....


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## Luftmensch (Jul 9, 2020)

khashy said:


> This knife was not on auction. It was definitely sold.



Did you say what platform the sale was on? I saw it on Yahoo... If there were multiple platforms that would be interesting information...


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## Luftmensch (Jul 9, 2020)

Ahh... I can see it was listed on Mercari for 220,000 yen. Perhaps that was the platform and sale price?


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## danemonji (Jul 10, 2020)

I knew it was fake advertisement from the moment it was posted. It's not really a fake Ashi, it's most likely a Shiraki being sold as an Ashi.
Note that I think that some of the auctions are being staged. They have people bidding to raise the price.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 10, 2020)

danemonji said:


> Note that I think that some of the auctions are being staged.



Curious!

I agree... it is definitely not a fake Ashi. Somewhere in between the sale at Ittosai and the most recent transaction it has been misrepresented. It is not worth the prices that were asked - but it is not bottom of the barrel craftsmanship either!


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## Gregmega (Jul 10, 2020)

Elliot said:


> I can only think of one cough****yougregcough.


Hey man that was sheeeeer luck mixed with some serious ethical fortitude my bro


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## khashy (Jul 10, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Ahh... I can see it was listed on Mercari for 220,000 yen. Perhaps that was the platform and sale price?


Correct


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## khashy (Jul 10, 2020)

danemonji said:


> I knew it was fake advertisement from the moment it was posted. It's not really a fake Ashi, it's most likely a Shiraki being sold as an Ashi.
> Note that I think that some of the auctions are being staged. They have people bidding to raise the price.



There is definitely a great deal of tinkering going on. 
There are staged auctions, then there are auctions being cancelled at the last minute because the price wasn’t high enough, then there is the case that the same auction item being privately offered to people while the auction is still live. 

Profiteering has definitely gotten the better of a number of sellers in Japan


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## Luftmensch (Jul 10, 2020)

khashy said:


> Correct



Cool... thanks for that. 



danemonji said:


> Note that I think that some of the auctions are being staged.





khashy said:


> There are staged auctions, then there are auctions being cancelled at the last minute because the price wasn’t high enough, then there is the case that the same auction item being privately offered to people while the auction is still live.



Interesting... Well the seller was trying their luck over at Yahoo as well. Identical pictures. At least it didn't go for the highest listed price!!


Nice public service announcement. At any of those prices, it is a huge amount of money to gamble. I hope nobody here was duped. It would have been preferable if nobody at all had been duped!!


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## camochili (Jul 10, 2020)

Thank you for the insight and opinions. 
For me as a newbie who is also interested in getting his hands on a high end knife, it scares me away, i have to admit. Luckily, as a collector guy with more experience in other fields, i know about such practices. Anyway, it gives me the feeling to take things slowly and wait for the right moment. Furthermore accept and ask for advise from more experienced enthusiasts.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 10, 2020)

Were all these photos on the same listing? The last pic is not the same knife as the earlier ones. There's some extra kanji on the latter.


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## NO ChoP! (Jul 10, 2020)

Isn't two grand cheap for an Ashi today? Heck, a quick google search and I saw them going for $5500. I would say, that is on the buyer. Too good to be true, means it is untrue.


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## camochili (Jul 10, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> Isn't two grand cheap for an Ashi today? Heck, a quick google search and I saw them going for $5500. I would say, that is on the buyer. Too good to be true, means it is untrue.


that's what i use to say...


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## danemonji (Jul 10, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> Isn't two grand cheap for an Ashi today? Heck, a quick google search and I saw them going for $5500. I would say, that is on the buyer. Too good to be true, means it is untrue.


Not really. There have been some genuine ashi 240 going for 2700$-ish as well as some 210 for 2500$. For a rare knife I've seen at least 4 being sold since last autumn (2x 240 and 2x210). Not on BST


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## NO ChoP! (Jul 10, 2020)

That is still $650 more. Again, always question a good deal.

For someone to spend 2k without doing any research, money obviously isn't their issue.


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## NO ChoP! (Jul 10, 2020)

And I will sell my honyaki'ish to anyone interested for a blow out $1000!!!!!


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## danemonji (Jul 10, 2020)

Yes. What the buyers don't really know is that they pay 2800$ for a yanagiba which the 2ndry market seller bought for 130k yen from a local store. Or some pay 1500$ for a gyuto in a paulonia box. Same knife is purchased for 60k yen ( aprox 559$) and the box (some wood and black ink) and japanese writing is about 20$ in the making. The guy who makes this possible must have made a fortune  from guys who don't know the market value.


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## ian (Jul 10, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> And I will sell my honyaki'ish to anyone interested for a blow out $1000!!!!!



“Excuse me, the hamon looks strange for Ashi.”

“I think it was a perfectly fine jamon.”

“Sorry, why are you spelling it like that? Is the hamon really from a forced patina that you made with jamon?”

“It might not be that...”


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## Bensbites (Jul 10, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> Isn't two grand cheap for an Ashi today? Heck, a quick google search and I saw them going for $5500. I would say, that is on the buyer. Too good to be true, means it is untrue.


I have seen some listed at 5500, in one case I talked to a seller and the final price was alot less. that's just once case...


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 10, 2020)

danemonji said:


> Not really. There have been some genuine ashi 240 going for 2700$-ish as well as some 210 for 2500$. For a rare knife I've seen at least 4 being sold since last autumn (2x 240 and 2x210). Not on BST


Plus those were western handled which for most makers means more $$$, TF being one of the exceptions


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## khashy (Jul 10, 2020)

NO ChoP! said:


> Isn't two grand cheap for an Ashi today? Heck, a quick google search and I saw them going for $5500. I would say, that is on the buyer. Too good to be true, means it is untrue.



Yes, Ashis are significantly more than 2k USD, which is probably why the buyer got duped into thinking he/she is getting a bargain and jumped on this one.

I know it's always the case that buyer should be aware and do their research; However I am hoping that by bringing issues like this to light and in discussion, more people become aware of the existence of all these new malpractices and cons. That way hopefully next time around someone comes across a 'Bargain', they'd think twice.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 10, 2020)

We definitely appreciate the PSA. And you're right, there's a lot of disinformation and dodgy sales tactics going on at the moment to trick the unwary/uneducated, with very little recourse. ALWAYS pay direct with a credit card so you can dispute item if not as described. Don't use credit card through PayPal (to pay for anything on Buyee). Forewarned is forearmed.


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## dafox (Jul 10, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> We definitely appreciate the PSA. And you're right, there's a lot of disinformation and dodgy sales tactics going on at the moment to trick the unwary/uneducated, with very little recourse. ALWAYS pay direct with a credit card so you can dispute item if not as described. Don't use credit card through PayPal. Forewarned is forearmed.


Would you explain this a bit more? PayPal offers some buyer protection, how is it different?


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## parbaked (Jul 10, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> ALWAYS pay direct with a credit card so you can dispute item if not as described. Don't use credit card through PayPal.



My experience is that if you use my credit card through PayPal I get protection from both PayPal and my bank...
The transaction shows up on my card as the vendor, not PayPal, so the fact that I used PayPal is not relevant to my bank.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 10, 2020)

Well I had the opposite experience. Unusual for sure but that's the way it worked out. Both PP and the credit card company saying it was the others responsibility and buyee were useless, giving me the runaround. PP are a nightmare to work with tbh. I was using Citicard at that time and I dropped them after that dealing. Bottom line, not all CC companies are created equal. I've had Chase Sapphire for the past 3 years and have yet to run up against any similar problems.

I should qualify what I said earlier. Don't use CC on PP to purchase via Buyee. Buyee will not intervene if an item is misrepresented. Between buyer and the seller there are 3 entities all of whom would like to pass the buck.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 11, 2020)

The world is full of honest people but there are enough arseholes out there. The internet facilitates them (and maybe amplifies them).

Ebay and their ilk are basically giant anonymous garage sales. My starting principle with these platforms is: "don't spend what you cant afford to lose". You are trusting the honesty of sellers in the listing details and the photos. It can range from generous and transparent, to ignorance, to downright lies. If you feel conned, you then have to fight through the bureaucracy of faceless corporations for recourse. You can adjust your sense of risk based on the information provided and the history of the seller... but the risk is never gone. Purchases are always sight unseen.

.... For purchases >$2K... you'd better be happy gambling that amount or damned sure about what you are doing.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 11, 2020)

ian said:


> “Sorry, why are you spelling it like that? Is the hamon really from a forced patina that you made with jamon?”



It is true. The real Ahshe jamonyaki are made in Spain. Most people don't know that. Bids opening at $4k:


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## khashy (Jul 11, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> The world is full of honest people but there are enough arseholes out there. The internet facilitates them (and maybe amplifies them).
> 
> Ebay and their ilk are basically giant anonymous garage sales. My starting principle with these platforms is: "don't spend what you cant afford to lose". You are trusting the honesty of sellers in the listing details and the photos. It can range from generous and transparent, to ignorance, to downright lies. If you feel conned, you then have to fight through the bureaucracy of faceless corporations for recourse. You can adjust your sense of risk based on the information provided and the history of the seller... but the risk is never gone. Purchases are always sight unseen.
> 
> .... For purchases >$2K... you'd better be happy gambling that amount or damned sure about what you are doing.



I’ve always given full video once-overs to all my buyers with everything I’ve sold (think the Steve gamache stuff but better!) for that exact reason - to give the buyer every assurance that the blade is exactly as I’ve described it.

This is of course not possible when buying on auction or mercari, so for those expensive purchases, if unsure, assume the worst and ask for help.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 12, 2020)

khashy said:


> I’ve always given full video once-overs to all my buyers with everything I’ve sold (think the Steve gamache stuff but better!) for that exact reason - to give the buyer every assurance that the blade is exactly as I’ve described it.



Thats mighty fine of you!


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## khashy (Jul 12, 2020)

Another false listing, falsely advertising this blade as an Ashi honyaki has popped up on auction


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 12, 2020)

Looks like the same knife that was in the OP (the one with the extra kanji towards the tip). Diff box going by the colored dots and label


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## jacko9 (Jul 12, 2020)

Sad but possibly true and the major reason I only buy from dealers I know.


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## khashy (Jul 16, 2020)

khashy said:


> Another false listing, falsely advertising this blade as an Ashi honyaki has popped up on auction View attachment 86881



This auction finished and it seems like the seller didn’t manage to massage the final price as high as they wanted.

It has now been relisted for 200k JPY.

The attempts to con the knife enthusiasts continues....


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 16, 2020)

So $1100 for a small Wa handled non-Ashi honyaki wasn't enough? Sorta suggests buyers are a bit more savvy than he'd hoped and he's not fooling most with that bogus Hiroshi Ashi attribution.


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## khashy (Jul 16, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> So $1100 for a small Wa handled non-Ashi honyaki wasn't enough? Sorta suggests buyers are a bit more savvy than he'd hoped and he's not fooling most with that bogus Hiroshi Ashi attribution.



Hopefully not. I really hope that no one falls into their trap


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## lemeneid (Jul 17, 2020)

Just buy western Ashis. Problem solved!


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 17, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Just buy western Ashis. Problem solved!


The real thing is just so sexy though


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## Luftmensch (Jul 18, 2020)

khashy said:


> This auction finished and it seems like the seller didn’t manage to massage the final price as high as they wanted.
> 
> It has now been relisted for 200k JPY.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 19, 2020)

No sale @200K JPY.


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## khashy (Jul 19, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> No sale @200K JPY.



excellent. The message is getting out there I hope!


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## khashy (Jul 19, 2020)

Same knife reposted again. This time for 180K.


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## ExistentialHero (Jul 19, 2020)

khashy said:


> Same knife reposted again. This time for 180K.


Well, now, that's a bargain!


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## khashy (Jul 19, 2020)

ExistentialHero said:


> Well, now, that's a bargain!



Ha!

In all seriousness, Ittosai Kotetsu are a proper quality shop and what I have seen from them has been most excellent.

So if this is an actual Ittosai Kotetsu ( I have stopped blindly trusting chiseled kanji after seeing how easily one can get whatever one wishes chiseled on a blade), and it does go for a reasonable price - for me this would be say 1K USD or below - then it actually would be a decent buy


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 19, 2020)

khashy said:


> for me this would be say 1K USD or below - then it actually would be a decent buy


Too generous.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 19, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Too generous.



In the last round of bidding I saw 70,000 JPY. I thought that seemed like a reasonable price? It aint an Ashi but it doesn't look like terrible quality either...


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 19, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> In the last round of bidding I saw 70,000 JPY. I thought that seemed like a reasonable price? It aint an Ashi but it doesn't look like terrible quality either...


Thats where I'd place it for the knife to be a reasonable buy.


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## danemonji (Jul 22, 2020)

Another two fake Ashi from the same line popped up in 240 and 270. I think they wanted to sell the 210 hoping to make the crowd go wild, and then introduce the 240 and lastly the 270 to maximize the sales. Now they just put all the knives on the table for prices in the 3k usd range.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 22, 2020)

Where are you finding the 240 & 270? Couldn't see them listed by the guy selling the dodgy 210, which has been relisted with a starting price of 3K yen. There are a couple of suspect Yoshiaki Fujiwara items up too from other sellers. Gotta tread carefully these days. Too much profit being made which is bringing out some bad dudes hoping to cash in.

OK found them. Yes same line as the 210 and DEF not Hiroshi Ashi. The seller of the 240 and 270 doesn't appear to pretend they are Ashi Honyaki unlike the seller of the 210, although mentions Ashi. Is Ichitosai Toratou a retailer?


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## khashy (Jul 22, 2020)

@Corradobrit1 and @danemonji , it would help if you could post photos of the others here (just photos), in case anyone doesn’t know what we are talking about and may be thinking of bidding


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## Luftmensch (Jul 22, 2020)

I am not claiming these are NOT Ashi. They may be... in either case it is a lot of coin to drop on something you haven't physically inspected. Buyer beware. I am posting the images here at the request of the thread:

*240mm*


















*270mm*


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 22, 2020)

That hamon line looks nothing like any genuine Ashi Honyaki I've ever seen. Looks more akin to Shiraki's or Shiraki Hamono work


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## valgard (Jul 22, 2020)

No way in hell that's Ashi


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## Luftmensch (Jul 22, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Looks more akin to Shiraki's or Shiraki Hamono work



The exact same thing came to my mind.




Luftmensch said:


> I am not claiming these are NOT Ashi.



Just covering my ass... Aspects of the industry are not completely transparent. While I wouldnt say these are definitely not Ashi. I would say they are not definitely Ashi  (and on balance most likely _not_ Ashi)

By the same token, since people pay Ashi prices to get an Ashi, there _is too much_ risk around these examples to pay such exorbitant prices.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 22, 2020)

Compare the ones above with the Razorsharp example. They are an insult to Hiroshi Ashi. No one should be under ANY illusion that they might be getting the real thing. While they 'could' be decent knives the asking prices are ludicrous and the seller's are trying to con unsuspecting/uneducated buyers. IMO they are sub-$1K blades.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 22, 2020)

Don't get me wrong... I am 99% for the proposition they are not Ashi. 

I am not trying to be irritating or deliberately playing the devils advocate. I am just leaving a minuscule amount of wiggle room for the possibility that a master craftsman could change profile, grind and even the hamon at the request of a vendor (although this would seem to be at odds with why the vendor would approach them in the first place). Again, some of these processes are opaque and generate rumours about blacksmiths and steel choice etc...

Point being, unless you are an insider and have access to information that we do not, it is best to assume they are *not* Ashi (by a long margin). They dont have characteristic hallmarks that make these examples definitively Ashi to my eye.


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## khashy (Jul 23, 2020)

Thank you for posting the photos. I’m happy to state that these are absolutely definitely not Ashi honyakis.

I am absolutely with your guess of Shiraki hamono.


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## corygrapher (Jul 24, 2020)

Another input about this. Look how different the kanji on the knives are. The kanji "刀" should be connected (the upper right corner). The kanji "虎" doesn't have the little hook in the bottom pic.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 24, 2020)

I'm curious to know what the kanji say


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## corygrapher (Jul 24, 2020)

纯 pure
日本 Japanese
鋼 Steel

一刀斎虎徹 Brand name
作 Made



Corradobrit1 said:


> I'm curious to know what the kanji say


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 25, 2020)

The 210 sold for 171K JPY.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 25, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> The 210 sold for 171K JPY.



Roughly Shiraki prices


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 25, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Roughly Shiraki prices


Not really. This 240 sells for $1300 and looks better made. I know which I would buy. Someone paid 2x what that 210 is worth.








Hitohira Shiraki Yohei White Honyaki Gyuto 240mm Taihei Ebony Handle


Handle Maker: Taihei Many people have strict standards when selecting a handle, it is the only component we physically engage with a knife, the only part that touches our skin. Others overlook the handle of a kitchen knife as just a small “part” and do not pay close enough attention. Taihei...




hitohira-japan.com


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## Luftmensch (Jul 25, 2020)

Wow... It was only 210? I missed that. I assumed 240. Gee... 

The Hitohira Shiraki has a nice polish on it! Shiraki in my part of the world seem to be pegged at around $1700 USD. Better made or not, at least the vendor is reliable, honest and I am protected by consumer law!


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## danemonji (Jul 25, 2020)

Guys most of the bids are staged
They have someone bidding to entice the naive bidders and raise the price artificially.
So they either fooled someone in believing that it was a desired piece or they bid for it themselves and the knife will show up on the auction again.
This is the second time they pulled this stunt with this knife and only switched boxes.
What i would suggest is to remember the seller's name as he is not to be trusted with any items. Probably scammer with false advertising and possible fake items.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 25, 2020)

danemonji said:


> Guys most of the bids are staged
> They have someone bidding to entice the naive bidders and raise the price artificially.
> So they either fooled someone in believing that it was a desired piece or they bid for it themselves and the knife will show up on the auction again.
> This is the second time they pulled this stunt with this knife and only switched boxes.
> What i would suggest is to remember the seller's name as he is not to be trusted with any items. Probably scammer with false advertising and possible fake items.


Not sure thats entirely true. Yes, I can believe the shill bids. But this particular knife was listed 4x, twice with low starting price and twice with a much higher starting bid (200k and then 180k JPY). The first time it was listed with low start bid the price went to $1K but seller pulled auction before the end.
There have been two 210 blades (see Khashy's OP) offered. One with and one without the "pure Japanese steel" kanji.
I have yet to see that seller repost any knife after it 'sold'


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## Luftmensch (Jul 26, 2020)

danemonji said:


> Guys most of the bids are staged
> They have someone bidding to entice the naive bidders and raise the price artificially.



Beyond that, I have also seen irrational behaviour where two items exist. One with a sale price (no bidding) and one at auction with a low starting price. Several times i have seen the auction price exceed the other item's sale price. Go figure... people either not searching all options or getting carried away with the emotion of the auction.



Corradobrit1 said:


> Not sure thats entirely true. Yes, I can believe the shill bids. But this particular knife was listed 4x, twice with low starting price and twice with a much higher starting bid (200k and then 180k JPY). The first time it was listed with low start bid the price went to $1K but seller pulled auction before the end.
> There have been two 210 blades (see Khashy's OP) offered. One with and one without the "pure Japanese steel" kanji.
> I have yet to see that seller repost any knife after it 'sold'



Agreed. The seller is definitely a flipper but I haven't noticed a pattern of recycling items through sham auctions.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 6, 2020)

Another fake Ashi Honyaki being sold as work by Hiroshi Ashi. Starting price for this 270 is $2445. Buyer beware


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## khashy (Dec 8, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Another fake Ashi Honyaki being sold as work by Hiroshi Ashi. Starting price for this 270 is $2445. Buyer beware
> View attachment 105406
> 
> View attachment 105407



this doesn’t even remotely look like an Ashi!!!!!


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 8, 2020)

khashy said:


> this doesn’t even remotely look like an Ashi!!!!!


Tell me about it. And seller should know better as he has sold a couple of real Ashi Honyaki in the past and knows exactly how they look and feel.


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## Moooza (Dec 8, 2020)

He is a pretty reputable seller, with heaps of contacts. Very odd....


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## GorillaGrunt (Dec 8, 2020)

khashy said:


> this doesn’t even remotely look like an Ashi!!!!!



I don’t know much about honyaki but even from looking at lots of knife pictures for some time that looks like a very typical Shiraki so I’d wonder how anyone buying these wouldn’t immediately think the same.

Then again, this probably has no bearing to the item under discussion, but I’ve met people pretty into knives who believed Ashi was the Japanese word for alloy banding and didn’t know that it’s the name of one smith and forge.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 8, 2020)

GorillaGrunt said:


> I don’t know much about honyaki but even from looking at lots of knife pictures for some time that looks like a very typical Shiraki so I’d wonder how anyone buying these wouldn’t immediately think the same.
> 
> Then again, this probably has no bearing to the item under discussion, but I’ve met people pretty into knives who believed Ashi was the Japanese word for alloy banding and didn’t know that it’s the name of one smith and forge.


Actually 'ashi' describes another facet of honyaki and not the alloy banding, so they are deficient on both counts.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 8, 2020)

Moooza said:


> He is a pretty reputable seller, with heaps of contacts. Very odd....


Reputable? Thats not how I would describe the seller. His listings are full of misinformation.


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## Luftmensch (Dec 9, 2020)

GorillaGrunt said:


> like a very typical Shiraki



That was previous running speculation:



Corradobrit1 said:


> Looks more akin to Shiraki's or Shiraki Hamono work





Luftmensch said:


> The exact same thing came to my mind.


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## Luftmensch (Dec 9, 2020)

GorillaGrunt said:


> I’ve met people pretty into knives who believed Ashi was the Japanese word for alloy banding and didn’t know that it’s *the name of one smith and forge*.





Corradobrit1 said:


> Actually 'ashi' describes another facet of honyaki and not the alloy banding, so they are deficient on both counts.



Say what? "Ashi" _is_ just the family name & forge/brand? Hiroshi Ashi is the CEO and current president. Check out their website. Two interesting points:



> April 1948 The predecessor (the father of the current president) founded an individual in Higashimachi, Sakai City
> February 1955 The current president, the second generation of Ashi Knife Mfg. Co., Ltd., was established



I am not saying 'ashi' doesn't have another meaning. But surely almost everybody in this forum are referring to 'Ashi' as an abbreviation of Ashi Hamono - founded by the Ashi family??

What other facet does it describe?


Edit:

Ashi: I guess always refer back to nihonto.


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## GorillaGrunt (Dec 9, 2020)

Huh, that sword link kind of blew my mind. The guy in question makes knives and I’ve not seen Japanese kitchen knives with ashi (the feature described in the page) but I sure do see that in American crafted differentially hardened blades ... so maybe I completely misunderstood what he was saying and he was using the word correctly and not thinking of Hiroshi Ashi/Ashi Hamono at all.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 9, 2020)

No banding but gob loads of ashi in this W2 honyaki


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## RockyBasel (Dec 9, 2020)

Razor sharp has actual Ashi Honyaki form sale for around 3K

here are the pics - you just know it when you see it - an Ashi Honyaki


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## Luke_G (Dec 9, 2020)

Damn, that’s a beauty.
If they are really selling it for 3k, they dropped the price significantly. A year ago the price was at 3.9k


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## RockyBasel (Dec 9, 2020)

Sorry - misquoted 

price is 3,950 usd


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## RockyBasel (Dec 9, 2020)

She is a beauty indeed - absolutely stunning. If Santa was going to be nice to me this winter - I would ask for this


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## Pauldoduy (Dec 26, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Razor sharp has actual Ashi Honyaki form sale for around 3K
> 
> here are the pics - you just know it when you see it - an Ashi Honyaki
> View attachment 105748
> ...


Here It's


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## RockyBasel (Dec 26, 2020)

Pauldoduy said:


> Here It's


Congrats! You got the real deal. There is a whole thread on the fake Ashi

It is absolutely stunning. I think probably the most beautiful Honyaki I have ever laid eyes on

Did you get it from Razor Sharp?

I will wait for the next opportunity- I have been spending too much on Swedish knives lately


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## Pauldoduy (Dec 26, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Congrats! You got the real deal. There is a whole thread on the fake Ashi
> 
> It is absolutely stunning. I think probably the most beautiful Honyaki I have ever laid eyes on
> 
> ...


Actually, not yet! I just visited them. It's too luxury for me.


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## RockyBasel (Dec 26, 2020)

Pauldoduy said:


> Actually, not yet! I just visited them. It's too luxury for me.


Yup - it’s too luxury for me too- tempted though


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## uniliang (Feb 5, 2021)

I am one of the victims... Wish I had read this article before I placed bid. Luckily I will probably get my money back from Chase since the knife isn’t made by Ashi san, confirmed by Yusuke Takahashi san from Takahashikusu, therefore it’s a scam and I can dispute the charge.

Here is the most important part of the email:

“Mr. Hiroshi Ashi is one of the artisans who make our knives, but as far as I saw the picture on Yahoo auction website, I think this knife is not made by Mr. Ashi, though we cannot declare this only from the pictures. Our company policy is that we don't disclose artisans' names, so I am not sure who started to say this is made by Ashi, but I sent a message to Yahoo auction contact center, saying this is not made by Mr. Ashi from the maker's perspective.”

Hopefully I am the last victim of this event.


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## ynot1985 (Feb 5, 2021)

Takahashikusu proabably released the last publicly known batches of ashi honyakis (outside of ashi direct). There was like 6-7 gyutos i in mid 2020 so they would know for sure if it is ashi or not. Legit source


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## khashy (Feb 5, 2021)

uniliang said:


> I am one of the victims... Wish I had read this article before I placed bid. Luckily I will probably get my money back from Chase since the knife isn’t made by Ashi san, confirmed by Yusuke Takahashi san from Takahashikusu, therefore it’s a scam and I can dispute the charge.
> 
> Here is the most important part of the email:
> 
> ...



Very sorry to hear it and hopefully Chase will resolve the matter for you as it is clearly a fraud.


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## camochili (Feb 5, 2021)

uniliang said:


> I am one of the victims... Wish I had read this article before I placed bid. Luckily I will probably get my money back from Chase since the knife isn’t made by Ashi san, confirmed by Yusuke Takahashi san from Takahashikusu, therefore it’s a scam and I can dispute the charge.
> 
> Here is the most important part of the email:
> 
> ...


good luck on that case.


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## Markcg (Feb 5, 2021)

Good luck on the claim!

I was about to bid on the other “Ashi” still up on the auction a few months ago. Luckily I did some googling, and found this thread. 

Saved me quite a bit, but then I joined the forums and took a deep dive into JNats and some higher end makers. Suffice it so say, I would be a richer man if I just bought the damn knife


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## khashy (Feb 5, 2021)

Markcg said:


> Good luck on the claim!
> 
> I was about to bid on the other “Ashi” still up on the auction a few months ago. Luckily I did some googling, and found this thread.
> 
> Saved me quite a bit, but then I joined the forums and took a deep dive into JNats and some higher end makers. Suffice it so say, I would be a richer man if I just bought the damn knife



Glad to hear it!


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 5, 2021)

uniliang said:


> I am one of the victims... Wish I had read this article before I placed bid. Luckily I will probably get my money back from Chase since the knife isn’t made by Ashi san, confirmed by Yusuke Takahashi san from Takahashikusu, therefore it’s a scam and I can dispute the charge.
> 
> Here is the most important part of the email:
> 
> ...


Was that the 270 that sold for 249,000 yen? That seller is a deliberately falsely describing his knives, saying blades are Ashi Honyaki when clearly they are not. He knows better too having sold several genuine Ashi's last year. He also claims to sell B#1 Kato's. Described a Kiridashi was Shinpei's work when it was Kiyoshi Kato. Do not trust what this seller says.


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## Luftmensch (Feb 5, 2021)

@uniliang,

Keep us updated. I'm sending good luck vibes your way. My feeling is that you will have to be persistent with both Chase and Yahoo. Don't let them brush you off.


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 5, 2021)

Chase in my experience especially if you have Chase Sapphire has been extremely positive. Far better than Citibank when it came to disputes. I don't think Uniliang will have any problems getting a successful resolution. Link to this thread and with the independent opinion of Takahashi, he should be golden.


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## uniliang (Feb 20, 2021)

Hi everyone,
Great news, I have got my money back from Chase!
Also all the fake Ashi has disappeared.
The seller took down the listing of other knives he was selling because I have my Japanese friend asked him bunch of questions regarding the false information listed on the fake Ashi I won. We think he was scared, at least for a while.


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## Markcg (Feb 20, 2021)

uniliang said:


> Hi everyone,
> Great news, I have got my money back from Chase!
> Also all the fake Ashi has disappeared.
> The seller took down the listing of other knives he was selling because I have my Japanese friend asked him bunch of questions regarding the false information listed on the fake Ashi I won. We think he was scared, at least for a while.


Glad this had a happy ending!


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## big_adventure (Feb 20, 2021)

uniliang said:


> Hi everyone,
> Great news, I have got my money back from Chase!
> Also all the fake Ashi has disappeared.
> The seller took down the listing of other knives he was selling because I have my Japanese friend asked him bunch of questions regarding the false information listed on the fake Ashi I won. We think he was scared, at least for a while.



That's amazing news.


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## khashy (Feb 20, 2021)

uniliang said:


> Hi everyone,
> Great news, I have got my money back from Chase!
> Also all the fake Ashi has disappeared.
> The seller took down the listing of other knives he was selling because I have my Japanese friend asked him bunch of questions regarding the false information listed on the fake Ashi I won. We think he was scared, at least for a while.


Fantastic news! Congrats on getting your money back and also in taking down a fraudster!


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## jacko9 (Feb 20, 2021)

uniliang said:


> Hi everyone,
> Great news, I have got my money back from Chase!
> Also all the fake Ashi has disappeared.
> The seller took down the listing of other knives he was selling because I have my Japanese friend asked him bunch of questions regarding the false information listed on the fake Ashi I won. We think he was scared, at least for a while.


I suspect that he will lay low for a while and then reappear since I highly doubt that he will give up on his scam.


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 20, 2021)

jacko9 said:


> I suspect that he will lay low for a while and then reappear since I highly doubt that he will give up on his scam.


Exactly. Give it a month or two. He's done it before and will do it again and again. The profits to be made are just too tempting, and there is virtually no policing of the sites in Japan. Certainly not to the standard of Ebay. I had no doubts Chase would step up.


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