# FREEHAND vs. SHARPENING SYSTEM



## Jeff (Oct 2, 2021)

Thoughts on freehand vs. a system?

I get consistent results with a system. Generally less abuse to the knife.

I go longer between sharpenings and revive edges w/ freehand stroppings.

I freehand as well, but only for “fun” and to improve my technique at it. I still feel I get better results on one of my systems

Thoughts?


I use various systems:
TSProf
WickedEdge
EdgePro
Tormek


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 2, 2021)

I used a guided system for years (prior to my foray into Japanese knives).

I don't get the comment about less abuse to the knife.

I don't know why you would go longer with a guided system than freehand other than proficiency of your technique.

Guided systems have some advantages but I feel their drawbacks far outweigh them.


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## Jeff (Oct 2, 2021)

Thanks for the reply.

My “less abuse on the knife” comment was directed at the ability to exactly replicate an edge with minimum metal removal. 

Many systems provide the ability to keep a record of various settings so it can be repeated in subsequent sharpenings. The result is very minimal metal removal and ability to exactly match angles when changing stones.


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## coxhaus (Oct 2, 2021)

I think my Worksharp Ken Onion sharpener is much faster to achieve a sharp edge with. With 30 kitchen knives sharpening by hand, I could not keep up with sharpening. No problem with the Worksharp keeping 30 kitchen knives sharp. Edge wise they both cut well if done right.

The Worksharp is probably easier to learn than sharpening by hand. But there is still a learning curve.


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## Barmoley (Oct 2, 2021)

There is an opinion by some that because you have more control with a guided system you could hit the very edge and thus remove less metal and in general stress the edge less. This leads to longer lasting edges. We've argued this before that especially for high wear resistant steels guided system might provide longer lasting edges. The other side of it is that free handed sharpening produces convex edges that are more durable if maybe a little less sharp in absolute terms. Also thinning needs to be done free hand since it would be very difficult with a guided system.


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## cotedupy (Oct 3, 2021)

Disclaimer - I've never used a system, so frankly my opinions probably mean f all, but...

When I get asked by customers about recommendations for sharpening, stones &c. I tend to advise freehanding, for a few reasons on top of not knowing about jigs n stuff:

- Slightly cheaper initial setup. When I tell people they just need to spend $30 on a King 1.2 / Cerax Combi and everything will be fine - they tend to be rather relieved.

- Easier to repair a knife and just general versatility. I sell Japanese knives, mostly to people who haven't had one before. And they often treat them like cheap Western knives.

- Freehanding isn't that difficult. This is the real kicker - it's incredibly simple to make a knife as sharp as you'll reasonably need it. And anyone can get there after maybe half an hour practice I guess. After that you can start playing around and getting geeky if you want, or not. The main reason I've never tried a system is that I just can't imagine the point.


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## coxhaus (Oct 3, 2021)

I assume you mean freehand on stones not on belts. I have no idea which edge would last longer. It is nothing I have thought about. And once I sharpened a knife on my Worksharp and realized how fast I could do it. I never sharpened by hand again. So, comparing which edge would last longer made no difference to me. I was going to use the Worksharp. It only takes me minutes to sharpen a kitchen knife.


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## Jeff (Oct 3, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I assume you mean freehand on stones not on belts. I have no idea which edge would last longer. It is nothing I have thought about. And once I sharpened a knife on my Worksharp and realized how fast I could do it. I never sharpened by hand again. So, comparing which edge would last longer made no difference to me. I was going to use the Worksharp. It only takes me minutes to sharpen a kitchen knife.




I am reassured you have positive results w/ Ken Onion Worksharp. I have been concerned about trying one because of my perceived belief it is impossible toset edges accurately.

All of my systems have spot on accuracy and repeatability.

WickedEdge, TSOP K03, and EdgePro take some time to setup and sharpen on so they are not great for volume and multiple blades.

The same is sort of true for my TORMEK T-8. The Tormek is a water cooled
electric wheel stone and a leather strop. Also very accurate and repeatable. The power (like Worksharp) is great for volume as fatigue is not a factor when doing long sessions.

BTW - you were correct in your assumption that I was not speaking to belt sanders.


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## coxhaus (Oct 3, 2021)

As long as the knife is sharp at the end of the day then it doesn't matter how we got there.


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## natto (Oct 3, 2021)

Do you know rope cutting contests in russia? There is some knowledge about guided sharpening and high alloy steels. There is a member on a german forum, with connections to that guys.

He checked a micro chipping Kato (or shig?) shirogami from another member. After sharpening the chipping went on. The point was how micro chipping creeps up over the edge, and how to detect and repair. Compromised material removed and sharpened on his Bogdan closeups of the edge looked good, after hundred meals.

It looks like the combination of knowledge and guides allows significant longer lasting edges. But I always get stuck in automatic translation.


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## Benuser (Oct 3, 2021)

Major problem with different systems is you can't maintain the blade's geometry. It's a lot of work to restore the asymmetry and thin the blade after it has undergone jig sharpenings and starts steering and wedging.


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## stringer (Oct 3, 2021)

And you can't sharpen different parts of the knife differently. I thin the tips of my knives every time I sharpen. I also thicken the angle at the heel every time I sharpen to make it tougher. In the middle section of the knife I blend it together. You can't do that with a jig.


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## Brian Weekley (Oct 3, 2021)

I have a Tormek T8 system c/w a 4000 grit “Japanese” water stone. I use it to sharpen German steel and cheap stainless blades. For blades made from better quality steel I hand sharpen exclusively on a variety of stones. The Tormek gives adequate results quickly. Better quality steel talks to me in a way that rewards the attention possible hand sharpening. IMO using the Tormek on a better quality blade is like using a sledge hammer to drive home a finishing nail. I haven’t use other sharpening systems and am open to the possibility that they may provide an adequate edge more quickly than hand sharpening but to me hand sharpening is part of the pleasure of owning and using a fine blade.


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## Pie (Oct 3, 2021)

I think if we’re purely talking keen, perfectly consistent edges, systems may be able to do a more accurate job if you’re not a freehand master. I can get my edges sharp, but I know I’m not perfectly hitting the apex at the right angle every time. My assumption is that I would be able to do so, or at least get closer, with a guided system. 

If we’re talking more than just the edge, eg. geometry, thinning, profile editing, fixing etc etc then the versatility of freehand is undeniable. What use is a super sharp edge if bte it’s all chunky and thick? All the steps and adjustments involved in convexing seems like a nightmare with a system.. not that I can do it freehand, but at least I don’t have to adjust a machine. How would you blend??

I might never want use a system because I enjoy screwing around more than I enjoy HHT4 edges, and to be able to pop a stone off the shelf and go to town sounds funner to me than setting up something with hinges and bars and small sticks of stones. On the other hand, I’m not sharpening 30 knives in a day.. more like 3, if I’m lucky and have time to do a good job.


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## Deadboxhero (Oct 3, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> There is an opinion by some that because you have more control with a guided system you could hit the very edge and thus remove less metal and in general stress the edge less. This leads to longer lasting edges. We've argued this before that especially for high wear resistant steels guided system might provide longer lasting edges. The other side of it is that free handed sharpening produces convex edges that are more durable if maybe a little less sharp in absolute terms. Also thinning needs to be done free hand since it would be very difficult with a guided system.


+1, best post


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## kayman67 (Oct 3, 2021)

For kitchen knives, free hand is more of an all inclusive procedure. You do some variable geometry work, some thinning, some quick pressure zone management, some microbevel, some convexity and so on and so forth. Lots of things going on that in the end and on the long run, are better performance wise.


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## coxhaus (Oct 3, 2021)

For people that like to sharpen there is no reason not to spend hours sharpening knives.


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## MarcelNL (Oct 3, 2021)

Honestly, I hardly spend more time than like 15 minutes sharpening and that is when I bring out the stones which then makes me take more than just the knife that needs it to the stones.

Last time I sharpened the Dalman I did just that one, took about 7 minutes....the setup of the lansky set I used long ago (diamond) on my global knives took longer, hands on stone has something a sharpening system lack, I guess it;s tactile feedback...


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Oct 3, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I think my Worksharp Ken Onion sharpener is much faster to achieve a sharp edge with. With 30 kitchen knives sharpening by hand, I could not keep up with sharpening. No problem with the Worksharp keeping 30 kitchen knives sharp. Edge wise they both cut well if done right.
> 
> The Worksharp is probably easier to learn than sharpening by hand. But there is still a learning curve.


Is the Ken Onion variable speed? If yes, what is the slowest SF/M? If no, what is the SF/M?


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## Benuser (Oct 3, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> For people that like to sharpen there is no reason not to spend hours sharpening knives.


Not sure if you're referring to system or free hand sharpening. Full hand sharpening of a well maintained knife, starting by thinning behind the edge on a 320 stone, and ending by deburring on Belgian Blue and the full progression in between, can be performed withing 20 minutes. No time in building up any system. A strange knife, severely neglected, may need much more, think heavy thinning and repairs as a reverse belly and a protruding fingerguard. Touching-up a well-known knife is done within minutes: a few strokes on the finest stone, perhaps occasionaly starting with the one before.


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## Bodine (Oct 3, 2021)

For me it is the bond between my hands and the knife, creating the edge myself, feeling the steel, thinning slightly with every touch up. As a home cook, this only happens every 4-6 months. But I can get out the stones, soak them and touch up 4 or 5 knives in under 45 minutes. When I have edges on them, those edges are mine and mine alone.


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## Benuser (Oct 3, 2021)

I remember from discussions here about wire edges they are much more likely to occur with jig systems as those work with a fixed angle, and a hand sharpener will adapt his angle in function of what he feels and hears to make sure he reaches the very edge and doesn't stay behind it.


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## EricEricEric (Oct 3, 2021)

If the geometry of the knife is correct sharpening a knife will be simple easy fast incredibly effective and faster


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## daveb (Oct 3, 2021)

Friends don't let friends use gizmos.


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## Jeff (Oct 4, 2021)

stringer said:


> And you can't sharpen different parts of the knife differently. I thin the tips of my knives every time I sharpen. I also thicken the angle at the heel every time I sharpen to make it tougher. In the middle section of the knife I blend it together. You can't do that with a jig.



Amazing information! (really … no sarcasm)


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## Jeff (Oct 4, 2021)

Brian Weekley said:


> I have a Tormek T8 system c/w a 4000 grit “Japanese” water stone. I use it to sharpen German steel and cheap stainless blades. For blades made from better quality steel I hand sharpen exclusively on a variety of stones. The Tormek gives adequate results quickly. Better quality steel talks to me in a way that rewards the attention possible hand sharpening. IMO using the Tormek on a better quality blade is like using a sledge hammer to drive home a finishing nail. I haven’t use other sharpening systems and am open to the possibility that they may provide an adequate edge more quickly than hand sharpening but to me hand sharpening is part of the pleasure of owning and using a fine blade.



I agree with you re your comments on TORMEK.

I found a use when doing multiple knives. Also as a starting point to get a knife into the ballpark of where I want it. Then I switch to either a
manual system or a freehand finish.


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## Jeff (Oct 4, 2021)

Brian Weekley said:


> I have a Tormek T8 system c/w a 4000 grit “Japanese” water stone. I use it to sharpen German steel and cheap stainless blades. For blades made from better quality steel I hand sharpen exclusively on a variety of stones. The Tormek gives adequate results quickly. Better quality steel talks to me in a way that rewards the attention possible hand sharpening. IMO using the Tormek on a better quality blade is like using a sledge hammer to drive home a finishing nail. I haven’t use other sharpening systems and am open to the possibility that they may provide an adequate edge more quickly than hand sharpening but to me hand sharpening is part of the pleasure of owning and using a fine blade.



Freehanding a high-end blade makes me nervous. I don’t yet have as much confidence as I’d like, as much muscle memory as I’d like, and do not yet achieve the consistently good results I’d like. 

Hence, I tend to limit my hand sharpening to lesser knives.


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## M1k3 (Oct 4, 2021)

Jeff said:


> Freehanding a high-end blade makes me nervous. I don’t yet have as much confidence as I’d like, as much muscle memory as I’d like, and do not yet achieve the consistently good results I’d like.
> 
> Hence, I tend to limit my hand sharpening to lesser knives.


There's always the rabbit hole of different knife finishes.

But practice makes nearing but never achieving perfection.


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## crockerculinary (Oct 4, 2021)

Most every method works well if you know what you’re doing and are consistent. As with all things knife related it’s a compromise- every method has advantages and disadvantages and different pitfalls and dangers and learning curves. And costs. As long as you’re happy, and competent with your method, knives get sharp and food gets cut. I don’t think any method is “better” than the other, there are just people who do it with care, knowledge, and skill, and there are people who do it without any of those things.

For me, I started down this serious sharpening rabbit hole about 5 years ago when I was running kitchens and had a bunch of cooks with a bunch of dull ass knives. I looked at from the perspective of speed and utility and volume. Before that I had always managed my own knives with whatever greasy dished out stone happened to be around, Boy Scout style, and a diamond rod, and was mostly sharp and satisfied. Anyway, over the next few months I got a worksharp, a kme fixed angle, a 1x30, and some diamond and synthetic stones. I used them all and had very good results with them all. I found stones to be my favorite, and found it to be very personally rewarding and even meditative. I have always valued simplicity, and it doesn’t get much simpler that water, stone, metal. Now at almost 2 years sharpening professionally in the shop, almost exclusively on stones, I’ve been starting to explore different equipment options for volume sharpening of lower quality knives. I still haven’t landed on a final solution, and expect I will probably just keep experimenting for another 20 years, but I think good quality knives will always go to the stones.

anyway that’s a long way to get back to the point, which is they all have pros and cons. In my experience, to achieve excellent results it stacks up like this-

Belts- (anything from a worksharp to a 2x72) definitely the fastest, and easiest to screw up badly, but with good technique very consistent results both in a high level of sharpness and aesthetically. Pretty easy to achieve both crisp flat bevels or convexed. Dangers are overheating the steel, removing too much material, metal in your eyeballs. Other cons- equipment and belt costs, dust management, burr management, kind of boring work. Also noise.

Stones- medium fastness, easiest set up, lowest cost, little danger of damaging the knife irreparably, meditative, excellent quality of edge and aesthetics with good technique. Cons- its the hardest to be really good at and requires a lot of practice to consistently achieve high level results, physically taxing at volume, you will probably want to buy too many stones, and you will most definitely bleed. Also dirty fingernails.

Fixed angle systems- consistent* results, great edges and flat bevels, excellent aesthetics. Especially good for smaller blades. Negatives- the slowest, lots of set up, often expensive, huge angle discrepancy on larger knives. *the problem with say they’re consistent is that if you don’t set up the knife exactly in the same spot as the last time then you basically have to cut in a new edge geometry every time and I don’t know how you can track that.

of course I haven’t used many of the higher end systems, so I could be missing some stuff. I wouldn’t mind playing around with a wicked edge sometime, or having one around the shop for pocket knives and the like, but I have definitely used a number of knives sharpened on one, and they were pretty spectacular.


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## Luftmensch (Oct 4, 2021)

Jeff said:


> Thoughts?



The dominant 'culture' in KKF is freehand - so there will be a bias towards that method (indeed, it is my preference).

I agree with the points made so far. Rather obviously, jigs work best when you operate within their design assumptions. That is: working at a fixed angle on a 'typical' knife. They can do this really well! But therein lies the catch. As mentioned already, the most commonly violated design assumption is that you _should_ use one fixed angle. For a kitchen knife you might choose to use multiple angles in multiple places! Granted, you _can_ run multiple angles on jigs... but it makes them more cumbersome. Other more niche assumption violations that havent been mentioned:

Sharpening single bevel knives on jigs is probably ill-advised
Sharpening a chinese cleaver would be impossible or awkward
Sharpening a really long slicer would be fiddly
I think I have read that bolsters and finger guards _can_ get in the way of some jigs
To be fair... Jigs arent really designed to solve these problems... nor thinning... nor convexing... etc...


These questions pop up every so often. It is hard generate new angles to the discussion. I don't mean to be discouraging! Even old conversations can be good  Given you have used quite a few systems:



Jeff said:


> TSProf
> WickedEdge
> EdgePro
> Tormek



a mini review comparing them would be pretty interesting for the forum (I think??). Personally, I had no idea what a TSProf was! I looked it up and it seems like a really well (over?) engineered tool.

Sharp is better than dull. It doesn't matter how you got there if you are happy 


(Edit: I have never sharpened scissors. I imagine using a jig for barber scissors is probably the best choice? But perhaps there is a salonscissorsforums.com somewhere out there where they are full of freehand braggadocio? )


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## Benuser (Oct 4, 2021)

For those who are dealing with Japanese double-bevelled knives, some reading might be useful before considering a jig system. 





Asymmetry The REAL DEAL


When we venture into using Japanese kitchen knives we often find that we’re interested in sharpening our own knives and begin searching for information on this subject. This leads us to research waterstones, sharpening techniques, and the subject of blade asymmetry inevitably comes up...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









A Basic Explanation of Asymmetry


A Basic Explanation of Asymmetry Way back when I began sharpening I remember reading through many forum threads about asymmetry in double bevel knives and having no idea what was going on. All this talk about 70/30 and 80/20, "You should be doing this and shouldn't do that", but no real...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Brian Weekley (Oct 4, 2021)

As I have said, I do have a Tormek T8 that I use regularly and IMO get adequate results quickly on German and lesser stainless knives. I wouldn’t consider using it on better quality blades. The problem with the Tormek is that it’s a powered ”stump puller”. It has a powerful electric motor that’s amplified through significant gear reduction. In short … it can do serious damage to you and your knife quickly if not used properly.

Stones on the other hand are reasonably benign. I’ve told novices to go and scratch away. There is little that they can do mastering freehand that I can’t fix.

I can’t comment on any other system … I haven’t used them.


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## coxhaus (Oct 4, 2021)

Brian Weekley said:


> As I have said, I do have a Tormek T8 that I use regularly and IMO get adequate results quickly on German and lesser stainless knives. I wouldn’t consider using it on better quality blades. The problem with the Tormek is that it’s a powered ”stump puller”. It has a powerful electric motor that’s amplified through significant gear reduction. In short … it can do serious damage to you and your knife quickly if not used properly.
> 
> Stones on the other hand are reasonably benign. I’ve told novices to go and scratch away. There is little that they can do mastering freehand that I can’t fix.
> 
> I can’t comment on any other system … I haven’t used them.



So, when you are using your Tormek T8 on German knives do you switch wheels for different grits. What grit do you sharpen with?


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## ModRQC (Oct 4, 2021)

To me it’s like some said: getting to know the blade first hand. Also all jigs setup I’ve seen come out as fastidious to me. Efficiency of them is short-lived due to geometry maintenance. Quick touch up, or just going back to the last stone to perfect an already adequate result, become a PITA. And I don't see no obvious way of just lifting the blade up to feel the edge or the burr then getting back to work in a second, but perhaps I'm wrong. I'd hate to go at sharpening at that level of sense deprivation though.


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## Brian Weekley (Oct 4, 2021)

The Tormek T8 is supplied with a dressing stone that allows you to switch between 400 and 1000 grit by dressing the water stone. The system works well and doesn’t take very long. If I have 8 German knives I’ll run them all at 400 grit then dress the wheel to 1000 grit and sharpen them all at 1000 grit. I’ll set the Tormek to sharpen at 20 degrees. That’s where I normally stop and IMO is satisfactory for a home kitchen. To move to the 4000 grit water stone requires changing the water wheel which requires a bit of time and offers limited benefit. It’s easier to move from a Tormek to a stone if I want a finer edge for some reason on these knives.


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## cooktocut (Oct 4, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> [*]Sharpening a chinese cleaver would be impossible or awkward


I have multiple cleavers, including the one in my picture which is a rather pricey oatley damasteel cleaver, and I have great results with my fixed set up. Taller knives aren't as big as a problem as the longer ones, imo. For my extremely long knives, I'll do the sharpening in two sections. It's certainly a pain in the ass and makes me want to reach for them less since I don't want to have to sharpen them, but it can be done as well.


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## coxhaus (Oct 4, 2021)

Brian Weekley said:


> The Tormek T8 is supplied with a dressing stone that allows you to switch between 400 and 1000 grit by dressing the water stone. The system works well and doesn’t take very long. If I have 8 German knives I’ll run them all at 400 grit then dress the wheel to 1000 grit and sharpen them all at 1000 grit. I’ll set the Tormek to sharpen at 20 degrees. That’s where I normally stop and IMO is satisfactory for a home kitchen. To move to the 4000 grit water stone requires changing the water wheel which requires a bit of time and offers limited benefit. It’s easier to move from a Tormek to a stone if I want a finer edge for some reason on these knives.



Have you tried 17.5 degrees or 15 degrees for the better German knives? I think it works better. My big 12-inch Henckels 4star chef's knife I still sharpen at 20 degrees in case I hit a bone but all my other German knives I sharpen at 15 degrees now.

I used 17.5 degrees before using 15 degrees. They both cut better than 20 degrees.

Wusthof now uses 14 degrees for factory edges on their Classic knives.


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## ModRQC (Oct 4, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Have you tried 17.5 degrees or 15 degrees for the better German knives? I think it works better. My big 12-inch Henckels 4star chef's knife I still sharpen at 20 degrees in case I hit a bone.
> I used 17.5 degrees before using 15 degrees. They both cut better than 20 degrees.
> Wusthof now uses 14 degrees for factory edges on their Classic knives.



Wusthof is no definition of sharp or even proper edge OOTB. Their claimed angle also varies quite a lot from the P-Tec optimization. And that's not to say if they can decently hold that edge. Seeing a monkey like Ramsay go at them, I'd say better aim for 50* inclusive.


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## Pie (Oct 4, 2021)

In regards to longer knives… freehanding them does have its own challenges. Say for example I have this skinny, wobbly little barber koppa that produces a killer edge, but zero grind sharpening a 280+mm suji on it is boss level difficult. From this arises all sorts of silly problems.. do I need to hunt for a bigger stone with the same properties? Do I need to spend literal hours developing muscle memory? Most likely, Do I ruin the edge and have to start from scratch multiple times on this god forsaken blade? At this point freehanding somewhat loses its charm. 

Would I prefer just resetting a jig a couple times and not grind off my fingerprints? Maybe… but natural stones for jigs are hard to find/make.. which brings us to the old rabbit hole of jnat edges, slurry mixing, and mud management. Which I love. Goodbye fingerprints!!


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## Brian Weekley (Oct 4, 2021)

I agree and for my own German knives I sharpen (by hand) to 14-16 degrees. I generally stick to 20 degrees for knives of this type that I sharpen for others. Two reasons for this. The first is as stated by you … to provide for the possibility (certainty) that the average home user doesn’t care about hitting a bone or chopping cartilage. Secondly I believe that a 20 degree angle edge will stay sharp longer than a more acute angle. Despite requesting people to return the knife to me for touching up before the edge becomes dull enough to drive nails, the edge is generally pretty far gone by the time it comes back. I just figure a 20 degree edge stays sharper longer which is what the client really wants.


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## tomsch (Oct 4, 2021)

I have a Wicked Edge Gen3 that I still use for folding knives that need the edge angle reset. Since it uses the cam design it's good for distal tapers but I've found that setup takes longer than me simply grabbing my sharpening tub with my splash-and-go stones for my kitchen knives. It's taken a little time this year to build up consistency in my technique but a sharpie is still my best friend to ensure that I'm starting at the best angle and raising a burr. 

Overall there is something therapeutic to hand sharpening that I like.


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## coxhaus (Oct 4, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Wusthof is no definition of sharp or even proper edge OOTB. Their claimed angle also varies quite a lot from the P-Tec optimization. And that's not to say if they can decently hold that edge. Seeing a monkey like Ramsay go at them, I'd say better aim for 50* inclusive.



I can say for a fact my knives sharpened at 15 degrees my way cut better.


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## coxhaus (Oct 4, 2021)

Brian Weekley said:


> I agree and for my own German knives I sharpen (by hand) to 14-16 degrees. I generally stick to 20 degrees for knives of this type that I sharpen for others. Two reasons for this. The first is as stated by you … to provide for the possibility (certainty) that the average home user doesn’t care about hitting a bone or chopping cartilage. Secondly I believe that a 20 degree angle edge will stay sharp longer than a more acute angle. Despite requesting people to return the knife to me for touching up before the edge becomes dull enough to drive nails, the edge is generally pretty far gone by the time it comes back. I just figure a 20 degree edge stays sharper longer which is what the client really wants.



What I have noticed is my knives sharpened 20 degrees lose their tomato cutting power faster than my knives sharpen at 15 degrees.
Try it. Let me know.


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## ModRQC (Oct 4, 2021)

There is... usually sharpening night(s) is my most favorite time of the week. It's me, knives, stones, music and a glass of wine.


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## ModRQC (Oct 4, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I can say for a fact they cut better.



Obviously the edge is more acute. I've sharpened Victos to below 15*. Do they hold it? Not as much as I'd consider reasonable.

Rather I get them thinner, cut a low angle relief, and a 20* edge. Cuts splendidly, lasts a long while, and has no trouble hitting a smooth rod a few times in between.


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## BoSharpens (Oct 4, 2021)

daveb said:


> Friends don't let friends use gizmos.


Stones are gizmos as are powered systems & guided systems & all are part of the trade.

I suspect each person has developed their favorite method for their types of knives after trying a few methods.

I learned based stoning as a kid, and learned how hard it was with a bad coarse stone. Once I got into machine shop work, I realized there were tons of stones, curved, flat, tapered in a dozen different grits and materials.

Then when carbides became the norm in end mills, drills and lathe tools, we had to move to diamond wheels and diamond polish in a few cases.

Me, I just stayed with what I know which is a low speed (200-300 rpm) 6" round diamond lap. I've sharpened countless tools and probably over 5,000 kitchen knives with my lap and I've NEVER had a customer complain about the lack of a sharp edge. I don't sharpen specialty Japanese blades, beyond the normal Shun, Miyabi & Kramer production blades. 

Just touching up a good edge back to razor sharp, including stropping is 6-8 minutes. If it is lightly chipped, broken tip then 10-15 minutes. Horrible 4-5 mm deep chips may take 20-30 minutes. 

My issue I see with production blades, including the Japanese noted above, is manufacturing variability. I've seen quite a few blades with thin and thick spots along an edge, bent cutting edges sideways, burn marks, the typical "Steeling" dips in an edge from home users, cracks in edges that run up into the blade from a hard edge and high hardness blades that are so hard & thin the edge keeps flaking off when very sharp. Being really careful, I can sharpen most 'flakey' edges and they look good and cut well, but they fall apart in use quickly.

People on this forum tend to take great care with their blades. 

I mostly get customers who don't know anything about blade & edge quality or care. After I sharpen them, some customers are astounded at how easily they cut and start to pay attention, but those people are a minority.

I admire people who become experts with stones on specialty Japanese blades. It's fun for me to learn a bit here about those techniques and the blades. It is a whole different world from my work.


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## Benuser (Oct 4, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Obviously the edge is more acute. I've sharpened Victos to below 15*. Do they hold it? Not as much as I'd consider reasonable.
> 
> Rather I get them thinner, cut a low angle relief, and a 20* edge. Cuts splendidly, lasts a long while, and has no trouble hitting a smooth rod a few times in between.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Keeping as thin as you can behind the edge allows a still performant conservative edge with a great retention.


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## coxhaus (Oct 4, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Obviously the edge is more acute. I've sharpened Victos to below 15*. Do they hold it? Not as much as I'd consider reasonable.
> 
> Rather I get them thinner, cut a low angle relief, and a 20* edge. Cuts splendidly, lasts a long while, and has no trouble hitting a smooth rod a few times in between.
> 
> ...



Looks good to me.

My knives my way stay sharp for months for me at home. I use a Worksharp Ken Onion. I don't have time to finish a glass of wine as I am sharpened in minutes.


----------



## ModRQC (Oct 4, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Looks good to me.
> 
> My knives my way stay sharp for months for me at home. I use a Worksharp Ken Onion. I don't have time to finish a glass of wine as I am sharpened in minutes.



That very well may be, but until we all get to exchange our blades and test for ourselves work others pretend to be charming, we just don't know. So it isn't even a question of me believing you or not. I just think that in absolute, you'll have a hard time getting your view across around here that you can sustain a Ken Onion 15* edge on softer SS for months.

Especially after declarations like you did above:



coxhaus said:


> I think my Worksharp Ken Onion sharpener is much faster to achieve a sharp edge with. With 30 kitchen knives sharpening by hand, I could not keep up with sharpening.



I find absolutely fascinating that owning 30 knives in a home kitchen you need to sharpen them SO often that you wouldn't be able to keep up with stones, but then declare you can sustain that edge on those softer SS for months. 

Sorry for saying the obvious truth, but all of this doesn't compute.


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## coxhaus (Oct 4, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> That very well may be, but until we all get to exchange our blades and test for ourselves work others pretend to be charming, we just don't know. So it isn't even a question of me believing you or not. I just think that in absolute, you'll have a hard time getting your view across around here that you can sustain a Ken Onion 15* edge on softer SS for months.
> 
> Especially after declarations like you did above:
> 
> ...



OK. 
I consider my knife sharp if it cuts a tomato well. Enough said by me.


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## tomsch (Oct 4, 2021)

For me maintenance and quick touch-ups are the keys. Some careful swipes on a ceramic honing rod (not the crazy Gordan Ramsey knife thrashing) or some deliberate strokes on a loaded stop and that is all it takes for the week. Sharpening really is when those two techniques are not yielding the edge I want. Keep it sharp and maintenance is not too bad. Let the blade become really dull then it is much more work.


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## Benuser (Oct 4, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> OK.
> I consider my knife sharp if it cuts a tomato well. Enough said by me.


Sharpness and the ability to cut well a tomato are very different notions.





question about a sharp knife that cant cut tomatoes well


I sharpened the knife on an 800 gritstone made burr then deburred on it and then moved to 8000 gritstone and deburred on that stone sharpening angle approx 17degrees, the knife is very sharp it cuts through paper with ease but through tomatoes it doesn't work pretty well what might be the...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com




Some relatively blunt stainless with a lot of bite — think a UX-10 – will still work for tomatoes, some highly polished carbons, sharp like hell, will do a poor job, skating on a skin. If you were a stone user, I wouldn't suggest a full sharpening but only a touching-up by a few strokes on a dry medium-fine stone, probably a 2k. In your case a good steel rod may be helpful. I was thinking of a Dickoron Micro which is very smooth so it won't raise a burr but leaves just the bite you need. It may spare you a lot of unnecessary sharpenings with all the loss of material that comes with it.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Oct 4, 2021)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> Is the Ken Onion variable speed? If yes, what is the slowest SF/M? If no, what is the SF/M?


OK, did my own googling. The variable speed model is 1200-2800 SFM and the cheaper models are 3600 SFM.

1200 SFM is probably workable without overheating the very apex. Though some people say that belt sharpening always overheats the very apex. I think that Larrin did some testing along those lines and the hand sharpened blades always did better.


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## stringer (Oct 4, 2021)

[




coxhaus said:


> OK.
> I consider my knife sharp if it cuts a tomato well. Enough said by me.




Tomato season is ending soon hoss, even in Texas. Gonna have to push your repertoire you're getting predictable.

How does it cut through sweet potato?
How does it chiffonade basil?
Can you skin a salmon with it with one stroke?
How is it for slicing hard mozzarella or soft mozzarella?
Will it chip or roll if you use it to split a cooked chicken?
How's it do peeling a raw hard squash?
How will it do cutting through a crusty bread with a soft baked interior like a fresh croissant?
Can you push cut eggplant or the skin side of peppers without lateral movement?
How thin a slice of cooked pork loin can you cut with it?
If you rock chop a head of garlic, would it still cut tomato after?


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## ModRQC (Oct 4, 2021)

I do drink a full glass of wine. Thinning/polishing takes more time. But using a Ken Onion Worksharp, you wouldn't know that, or couldn't do that.

And 15* minimum edge bevel, I couldn't live with that. I sharpen most J's I own at 10-12*.


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## Luftmensch (Oct 4, 2021)

I dunno? I dont think @coxhaus is being outrageous? If Ken Onion works for @coxhaus ... great!? Why all the bother?

I have no trouble believing Ken Onion would be less physical work than stones for a large volume of knives. It also seems uncontroversial to observe that acute angles cut better... and that all things being equal, acute angles hold their edge longer - a bunch of testing (including Larrin's) confirms this.

I am sure a *good,* modern german stainless probably can hold an acute angle (~15) with _conscientious_ use (58HRC isnt _that_ soft). Most of us around here are far, far more careful with our knifes than John Citizen next door. We all know that! 

No one is arguing acute angles are best for ice sculpting?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Oct 4, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Looks good to me.
> 
> My knives my way stay sharp for months for me at home. I use a Worksharp Ken Onion. I don't have time to finish a glass of wine as I am sharpened in minutes.


Just curious. Since you have 30+ knives, by "stay sharp for months" you mean one knife will stay sharp for months or there are multiples you regularly use and after several months they are all dull?


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## coxhaus (Oct 4, 2021)

stringer said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I use a lot of knives for these tasks. I have around 30 kitchen knives. They are all sharpened with my WS KO.

I can skin a salmon with my Henckels 4star salmon knife. It works great. I skin most of my fish.
I don't cut many sweet potatoes but it works fine at Thanksgiving.
I have lots of basil plants in my garden. I cut the leaves all the time.
I don't use a lot of mozzarella cheese but I have not noticed any issue. Parmesan cheese is my problem but it works. We mostly grate it.
I use my 12-inch Henckels 4star chef's knife to split chicken. No chipping. Sharpened at 20 degrees. I cut both raw and cooked.
I cut a lot of small squash. no issues. 
I cut Bagget's with a bread knife and sometimes with my 10-inch chef's knife. No croissant that I can think of. I cut puff pastry with a thinner knife.
Not sure about lateral movement but I cut at least a 1000 peppers a year. Very few eggplants.
I don't cut thin pork loin. I cut a lot of meat. I am a meat eater.
I smash garlic using the side of my 10-inch chef's knife then I mince it.
I cut lots of carrots, celery, peppers onions and potatoes. You can add Brussel sprouts, cabbage, broccoli, mushrooms, tomatoes, large Texas watermelon.
This is what I can think of right now.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Oct 4, 2021)

I have a knockoff Tormek T8 for freehand thinning, especially on monosteel knives. It saved me a lot time. I can only remove 1 gram per hour from monosteel knives on wetstones (never tried diamond plate), but by using the knockoff Tormek I can remove at least 3-4 grams per hour. I still use it when needed, but I won't recommend it to beginners as the fix angle accessory won't allow a low angle for thinning, so if you want to use it for thinning you gotta learn how to do it freehand which probably takes much time to learn than sharpening. 

I also have a fixed angle sharpening system paired with chosera mini stones. It works ok and allowed me to pass hanging hair test for the first time. However, since I got more comfortable at freehand sharpening, I've never used the fixed angle system again. I actually get more consistent edge bevel from heel to tip by using freehand as I can adjust the angle and pressure for the tip area. And by using freehand you have the flexibility to sharpen your knife in whatever way you want.

Sharpening freehand could also be super fast once you get better at it especially when you have carbon knives that are thin behind the edge. I now usually sharpen 3-5 knives at a time and it won't cost me more than 20 minutes in total. If it's something like a white steel that is super thin behind the edge, you can probably sharpen and finish on one high grit stone and get a sharp edge in a minute or 2.


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## ModRQC (Oct 5, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> I dunno? I dont think @coxhaus is being outrageous? If Ken Onion works for @coxhaus ... great!? Why all the bother?
> 
> I have no trouble believing Ken Onion would be less physical work than stones for a large volume of knives. It also seems uncontroversial to observe that acute angles cut better... and that all things being equal, acute angles hold their edge longer - a bunch of testing (including Larrin's) confirms this.
> 
> ...



To each his own… as long as just about every post you make is more broadly helpful than reiterating the jig is faster for maintaining 30 knives (bizarely, at once and every day it would seem since stones CAN’T keep up) and that the edges are sharp because they can cut tomato. I mean I can half ass sharpen on SG500, rip the burr off more than deburr, and do quite good work out of tomatoes. I wouldn’t use that edge but since it’s the golden standard, my old serrated steak knives can cut tomatoes somewhat well with some patience and lowered standards, so who knows indeed…

Rather than admitting once and for all one can’t master freehand sharpening well enough to make better than a Ken Onion Worksharp, and stop giving Ken Onion advices and sharpness assessments out of Henckles cutting tomatoes using it.


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## coxhaus (Oct 5, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Just curious. Since you have 30+ knives, by "stay sharp for months" you mean one knife will stay sharp for months or there are multiples you regularly use and after several months they are all dull?


I sharpen my big 10-inch chef's knives and my wife's MAC PRO at the end of June. I then stropped all the rest of my knives since I bought a leather belt in July. I haven't sharpened until the day before and I sharpened my wife's MAC PRO as the heel would not cut a tomato well.

I did buy a Wusthof Classic 10-inch chef's knife that I sharpen around first part of August, I guess. I don't remember the exact time. I think I wrote about it.
I bought the Wusthof 10-inch because I have an 8-inch which I don't like and I thought it was because it was an 8-inch which turns out true for me. I don't like 8-inch chef's knives as they are too short for my liking. I like the Wusthof 10-inch knife better than the 8-inch.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Oct 5, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I sharpen my big 10-inch chef's knives and my wife's MAC PRO at the end of June. I then stropped all the rest of my knives since I bought a leather belt in July. I haven't sharpened until the day before and I sharpened my wife's MAC PRO as the heel would not cut a tomato well.


How many 10-inch chef's knives have you been using since the end of June? How frequently do you use them? Just trying to make sure I don't misunderstand the situation.


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## coxhaus (Oct 5, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> To each his own… as long as just about every post you make is more broadly helpful than reiterating the jig is faster for maintaining 30 knives (bizarely, at once and every day it would seem since stones CAN’T keep up) and that the edges are sharp because they can cut tomato. I mean I can half ass sharpen on SG500, rip the burr off more than deburr, and do quite good work out of tomatoes. I wouldn’t use that edge but since it’s the golden standard, my old serrated steak knives can cut tomatoes somewhat well with some patience and lowered standards, so who knows indeed…
> 
> Rather than admitting once and for all one can’t master freehand sharpening well enough to make better than a Ken Onion Worksharp, and stop giving Ken Onion advices and sharpness assessments out of Henckles cutting tomatoes using it.



I never said it was better. I said it was faster. To me a sharp kitchen knife is a sharp kitchen knife nothing more. I get no pleasure sharpening knives like some of you guys do. I make them last as long as I can because I hate sharpening. I have stated it many times.

We are under a thread for using sharpening systems.

I also stated "I" could not keep up with sharpening on stones. That was back when I was working. I did not have the time.

I don't thin and I am not going to. It is more work. I will just use a different knife if need be.


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## ModRQC (Oct 5, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I use a lot of knives for these tasks. I have around 30 kitchen knives. They are all sharpened with my WS KO.
> 
> I can skin a salmon with my Henckels 4star salmon knife. It works great. I skin most of my fish.
> I don't cut many sweet potatoes but it works fine at Thanksgiving.
> ...



Tl;dr : I know my Ken Onion edges can cut because they cut all my cuts although I don’t really get or address the real tests in all of what was asked.


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## Jeff (Oct 5, 2021)

I will have to compile an analysis of those systems.

My “basic thoughts” (pardon the pun) is that a system edge might be a good jumping off point and then an edge can be fine tuned to one's specific liking.

Also, a system acts as “training wheels” of sorts.


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## Luftmensch (Oct 5, 2021)

Geeze we're not sending a person to mars.... Just enjoying sharp knives in the kitchen  

Dont mistake personal experience for absolutist claims. There is room for exploring how people use other sharpening methods. This thread should include that.

The Ken Onion is _just_ a mini belt sander... that is all. No magic. You can freehand on it if you want. I see it as a powered tool not a jig. I dont own one nor am I likely to. 

Some people don't _want_ to enjoy oil/water stones... some people _can't_ enjoy oil/water stones. What do you say to the person with 70 year old arthritic wrists? Or somebody with the onset of parkinson's? "Sorry... this hobby is not for you?"


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## Benuser (Oct 5, 2021)

Just a question to Ken Onion and other system users: I've seen very prominent shoulders. How thick are they? With hand sharpening, I aim for 0.2mm above the bevels, speaking about chef's knives with board contact. Wüsthof's Cordon Bleu PETec used to come with 0.35 OOTB, others even thicker. How about yours after a few years?


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## WaTFTanaki (Oct 5, 2021)

Do belts offer any advantages for thinning vs whetstones?


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## Pie (Oct 5, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> Do belts offer any advantages for thinning vs whetstones?


I think the main advantage is speed. And consistency as a byproduct, provided you know what you’re doing with a belt. Serious thinning and big low spot removal takes ***forever*** on stones. For me anyways. I’ve done about 4 heavy thinnings starting at 120 grit, and never have I thought “wow this is going quicker than I expected”. More like “should have just bought the damn Konosuke”


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## stringer (Oct 5, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> Do belts offer any advantages for thinning vs whetstones?



I have a 1*30. I use it for thinning sometimes but it sucks because the platen is too small and wimpy and the belt moves way too fast. So if you get too close to the edge it turns into smoke. A pro with a variable speed 2X72 and a good platen and good wheels and good skills can do pretty much anything


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## Luftmensch (Oct 5, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> Do belts offer any advantages for thinning vs whetstones?



Pretty much what @Pie says. *Speed*.

Not only thinning... you can reprofile and regrind knives if you want.

The small time crooks around here use cheap hardware store belt sanders. Like @stringer says, they are underpowered, run too fast and are sloppy. Speed is a problem because a fast belt will build up heat in the steel. On thin sections you can ruin the temper. Speed can also reduce the lifespan of your belts.

I have one of those crappy 4x36 sanders you see under different brands. It is underpowered, runs too fast and is sloppy. But you can still do useful things with it. Heat control seems manageable to me at 40-80 grit - keep the steel moving and dunk it in water every few passes. Dont use high pressure - let the the movement of the belt do the work. Your fingers are ok tools (not brilliant) for ensuring a good factor of safety on the heat. Fortunately rough ceramic belts are ok with high speed (and they dont mind pressure but you might want to avoid it due to heat build up).

A _fresh_ 120 grit belt is borderline but you have to be calculated and careful. I havent tried any higher grits... partly due to borderline experience at 120... partly due to availability... and partly because I dont think fine aluminium oxide belts wouldnt last long in those conditions


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## daveb (Oct 5, 2021)

stringer said:


> ..... A pro with a variable speed 2X72 and a good platen and good wheels and good skills can do pretty much anything




"Good skills" probably bears repeating. They aren't acquired by watching utubers and some knives may have to die during the development. IMO a grinder will not make a marginal sharpener into a gifted one.


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## daveb (Oct 5, 2021)

I know @Dave Martell does a lot of belt sanding as well as working with stones. Pls jump in - it's been too long.


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## Benuser (Oct 6, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I never said it was better. I said it was faster. To me a sharp kitchen knife is a sharp kitchen knife nothing more. I get no pleasure sharpening knives like some of you guys do. I make them last as long as I can because I hate sharpening. I have stated it many times.
> 
> We are under a thread for using sharpening systems.
> 
> ...


I believe I do understand the idea behind the Ken Onion. Mini-belt sander, a few fixed angles, no thinning possible. What it does to a knife's geometry is obvious to me. It's a choice. As you seem to use mainly soft stainless, I would like to know how you perform the deburring.


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## coxhaus (Oct 6, 2021)

I think the idea is to make a knife belt sander cheap and portable. I assume the pros have the big models like a 3 x 72.

Yes, the basic Ken Onion have a number of degree settings. With the Ken Onion elite adapter, you can free hand sharpen any degree you want. I bought it to use for stropping. Recently I tried running the leather belt at high speed and it broke. I have been running my stropping at low speed. Maybe I should have oiled the belt when I bought it. It was kind of dry. It was a leather belt I bought off eBay not Worksharp. I think I will order the Workshrp stopping belts.

I run my belts loose so I kind of get a concave effect. I believe that is the right term.


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## Benuser (Oct 6, 2021)

I would rather expect it to be convex. But how about the deburring?


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## kayman67 (Oct 6, 2021)

You can do it, against the edge, but most people I imagine that just reduce it with different belt grits and stropping.


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## coxhaus (Oct 6, 2021)

Benuser said:


> I would rather expect it to be convex. But how about the deburring?



Worksharp sells thicker belts for a convex effect. I buy the thinner belts and I use the pulleys loose to help with the concave effect.

PS
I just looked and I don't see the thick belts nor the stropping belts. So, I am not sure. Maybe covid effect. Maybe that is why I bought a stropping belt off eBay.


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## Benuser (Oct 6, 2021)

And how do you get rid of the burr?


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## coxhaus (Oct 6, 2021)

If you are asking me using the Worksharp, I just use a fine belt or a strop.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Oct 6, 2021)

Benuser said:


> And how do you get rid of the burr?


I've had that same question about belt sharpening in general. I watched a guy at a farmers market. He had a piece of heavy carpet fastened to his bench that he used by stropping at a very high angle. I didn't talk to him.


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## Benuser (Oct 6, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> If you are asking me using the Worksharp, I just use a fine belt or a strop.


Hard to believe that will do to fully abrade a soft stainless burr, other than reducing it a bit and having it flip eternally, unless you use @kayman67 's suggestion which doesn't sound very safe to me. The incomplete will lead to a poor edge retention.


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## Benuser (Oct 6, 2021)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> I've had that same question about belt sharpening in general. I watched a guy at a farmers market. He had a piece of heavy carpet fastened to his bench that he used by stropping at a very high angle. I didn't talk to him.


It might work very well, depending on the steel. With simple carbons, a weakened burr comes off quite simply, without leaving a damaged edge behind as with some stainless, where you really have to abrade it through the entire progression.


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## kayman67 (Oct 6, 2021)

At 1200rpm and since you don't stand against it, it's pretty benign. But the system itself is designed to reduce the burr by changing belts. 
This being for Worksharp. 
Other systems might be dangerous. Full grinders are 100% dangerous and I know guys with knives in body parts, unfortunately. Happens more often than imagined. Doing so with Scotch-Brite belts is a guarantee to happen.


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## coxhaus (Oct 6, 2021)

Well, I took a look at my edge with 50x loupe and it just looks like a rough edge to me. But I have used this knife for couple of months. It goes right through tomatoes now still.


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## Jeff (Oct 6, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Tl;dr : I know my Ken Onion edges can cut because they cut all my cuts although I don’t really get or address the real tests in all of what was asked.



Have you used your Ken Onion for thinning? I am contemplating one for that purpose. I am a little shy to take a bench style belt sander to a decent quality knife so I thought K.O. might offer a sort of controlled belt sander action.

Any thoughts?


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## kayman67 (Oct 6, 2021)

Only if someone would make an attachment to address wider kitchen knives. None that I know of is available at the moment.


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## coxhaus (Oct 6, 2021)

I have never done thinning. I just sharpen. I have sharpened kitchen knives and hunting knives.


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## coxhaus (Oct 6, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Only if someone would make an attachment to address wider kitchen knives. None that I know of is available at the moment.



What do you mean wider? My Henckels 11.5-inch chef's knife is pretty wide.


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## kayman67 (Oct 6, 2021)

You need enough space and backing to thin a blade properly. No attachment available can do that.


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## coxhaus (Oct 6, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> You need enough space and backing to thin a blade properly. No attachment available can do that.



So, you are saying you can't thin with a belt system? I have never thinned so I don't know.

Here is a video.
Work Sharp Ken Onion Edition Elite Sharpener - Everything you need to know - YouTube


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## crockerculinary (Oct 6, 2021)

A worksharp only does convex edges, not concave. With the blade grinding attachment you can pull off a flat bevel with the platen, but you generally still get some rounding at the shoulders unless you modify it with a piece of glass or something.

To answer the question about burrs, the basic sharpening attachment has the belt running up one side and done the other, so it’s does edge leading on one side and edge trailing on the other, so you’re basically building a burr on then cutting it off on the other, and since you’re switching sides every stroke, by the time you get to finer belts the burr is usually minimal if there at all. You actually can see little bits of foil flying off when you use it. If there is one, it can be managed with a strop, a rod, a stone, or whatever other method you typically manage a burr with. A drag through a piece of wood should be sufficient at that point.

You wouldnt use a worksharp for real thinning. With the blade grinding attachment it could be used for thinning very small blades but its pretty awkward getting to certain spots, and the original sharpener is not really designed for anything other than putting on and sharpening a convex edge.

With the attachments it was a fun machine to fool around on and learn, but I’ve come to the conclusion its a little too restrictive and mostly moved on. I still keep them around for certain tasks, for instance I have one that I just keep a diamond loaded stropping belt on as an occasional finishing move.

But I think for a certain segment of people, it is a fine solution for maintaining kitchen and pocket knives. Maybe with a little education on the dangers of overheating. It’s not a perfect solution but it does work.


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## ModRQC (Oct 6, 2021)

Jeff said:


> Have you used your Ken Onion for thinning? I am contemplating one for that purpose. I am a little shy to take a bench style belt sander to a decent quality knife so I thought K.O. might offer a sort of controlled belt sander action.
> 
> Any thoughts?



Aaaaah.. hmmmm… lol… nevermind.


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## kayman67 (Oct 6, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> So, you are saying you can't thin with a belt system? I have never thinned so I don't know.


Question was about worksharp.


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## coxhaus (Oct 6, 2021)

crockerculinary said:


> A worksharp only does convex edges, not concave. With the blade grinding attachment you can pull off a flat bevel with the platen, but you generally still get some rounding at the shoulders unless you modify it with a piece of glass or something.
> 
> To answer the question about burrs, the basic sharpening attachment has the belt running up one side and done the other, so it’s does edge leading on one side and edge trailing on the other, so you’re basically building a burr on then cutting it off on the other, and since you’re switching sides every stroke, by the time you get to finer belts the burr is usually minimal if there at all. You actually can see little bits of foil flying off when you use it. If there is one, it can be managed with a strop, a rod, a stone, or whatever other method you typically manage a burr with. A drag through a piece of wood should be sufficient at that point.
> 
> ...



Can you show me a picture of your stropping setup? I want to try it.

Where did you get your stropping belt, I need one?

What do you use now?


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## ian (Oct 6, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Rather I get them thinner, cut a low angle relief, and a 20* edge. Cuts splendidly, lasts a long while, and has no trouble hitting a smooth rod a few times in between.



Yea I usually do a compound bevel on those types of cheap stainless knives too, with a pretty conservative primary angle.


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## ian (Oct 6, 2021)

Also, just used my new fancy 2x72 on a first batch of 15 client knives. I have no belt skills yet, really… a third of the time I forget to tension the belt before starting the motor. 

But man, it’s so nice doing the initial chip and weak steel removal on the belt…. Not as much need for super low grit stones. So fast, so easy, so much nicer on the body. Looking forward to eventually becoming worthy of the machine.


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## coxhaus (Oct 6, 2021)

ian said:


> Also, just used my new fancy 2x72 on a first batch of 15 client knives. I have no belt skills yet, really… a third of the time I forget to tension the belt before starting the motor.
> 
> But man, it’s so nice doing the initial chip and weak steel removal on the belt…. Not as much need for super low grit stones. So fast, so easy, so much nicer on the body. Looking forward to eventually becoming worthy of the machine.



What model did you get?


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## ian (Oct 6, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> What model did you get?



It’s an Ameribrade. Seems great so far. 3hp variable speed motor, but quieter than my cheap 1x30.


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## rob (Oct 6, 2021)

ian said:


> It’s an Ameribrade. Seems great so far. 3hp variable speed motor, but quieter than my cheap 1x30. ❤
> 
> View attachment 146148


Looks really nice.
Recommend using a face shield in case you aren't already.


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## coxhaus (Oct 6, 2021)

Wow, I think I will stay with my Worksharp KO elite. I am not looking to be a PRO. 

I have had some belts snap on me and it is kind of spooky but the small belts don't seem to hurt you.


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## ian (Oct 6, 2021)

rob said:


> Looks really nice.
> Recommend using a face shield in case you aren't already.
> 
> View attachment 146149
> View attachment 146149



Yikes. Smart, will get one eventually. And a leather apron. Right now I’m never really cranking the motor, since I’m always doing near-edge work on HTed blades and I’m still getting my technique down.


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## Jeff (Oct 6, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> You need enough space and backing to thin a blade properly. No attachment available can do that.



So you’d recommend a 3” or 4” wide bench beltsander?


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## M1k3 (Oct 7, 2021)




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## Benuser (Oct 7, 2021)

Jeff said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> My “less abuse on the knife” comment was directed at the ability to exactly replicate an edge with minimum metal removal.
> 
> Many systems provide the ability to keep a record of various settings so it can be repeated in subsequent sharpenings. The result is very minimal metal removal and ability to exactly match angles when changing stones.


IIRC it was @Dave Martell who wrote that repeatability is the less relevant notion when sharpening. The reason is, the entire configuration moves to another, slightly thicker part of the blade. If you want the new edge to perform in the same way as the old one before it got dull, you should start by thinning behind the edge before reaching the very edge. I start a full sharpening by thinning at the lowest angle with a 320 stone and only little by little raise the spine, until the very edge got reached. It allows the bevel to form a continuous arc with the face. No shoulders.


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## Benuser (Oct 7, 2021)

I would like to add a more personal note. When I started stone sharpening, it was quite a learning curve. The first results were acceptable, but little by little I discovered new problems and new solutions. A process, involving manual abilities and limits, and intellectual ones as well, trying to understand what happens, why others do things in another way , how to explain what is going on and why I do things in my way, all in a foreign language. I found it a most rewarding process. For a very long time I could say, I didn't sharpen a single knife without learning new things.


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## Luftmensch (Oct 7, 2021)

rob said:


> Recommend using a face shield in case you aren't already.





ian said:


> Yikes. Smart, will get one eventually. And a leather apron.



The full-face respirator from 3M is a good hobby grade option. All considered, it is not too expensive and you'd have to spend a significant amount more to get a better mask.

I tried half masks for awhile - I hate to say it... but I wasn't prepared to shave. Unsurprisingly I could never get a great seal.... or maybe it is because I have a weird, horse-face / pin-head?? Either way, I get a much better seal with the full face mask. Since there is a larger sealing area, I can also strap it on tighter without discomfort. As a bonus I dont need safety goggles anymore!

A full-grain, leather apron is likely to feel heavy and stiff. Great for protection around flying bits of hot metal, sparks and heat sources. But they are also likely to be expensive! Might be overkill unless you get into forging? If you want to save some cash, a heavy canvas apron might be sufficient? Either way, also endeavour to wear natural fibre clothing when you are working.


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## coxhaus (Oct 8, 2021)

I have a blue jean jacket I wear when I weld along with my boots and jeans. Leather is just too hot in Texas for me.


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## Dominick Maone (Oct 8, 2021)

I wear a half mask, full face shield, and ear muffs when grinding on 2x72. If I am grind profiles I will wear safety glasses too just to be redundant. What was that guy going that both his chest and head were hurt? Looks like he was grinding in reverse and something exploded.

I like free handing on stones. I like the lansky system too. I don’t use the lansky any longer because I am confident on stones. I used to set initial bevel on 2x72, but like using and practicing with stones so much I set bevels on stones now.


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## kayman67 (Oct 11, 2021)

Jeff said:


> So you’d recommend a 3” or 4” wide bench beltsander?


Would definitely work better than KO, if there's enough space available. 
KO, with its attachments, it's not designed to work with wide blades for this. No one made something to change the behaviour. Not that I know of.


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## coxhaus (Oct 11, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Would definitely work better than KO, if there's enough space available.
> KO, with its attachments, it's not designed to work with wide blades for this. No one made something to change the behaviour. Not that I know of.



I don't see how you keep saying there is not enough space? There is all kinds of space. This is the KO elite with the adapter I bought a while back. You can add the adapter to the KO or you can buy it that way. I added mine. Look at the pictures with Ken Onion sharpening a chef's knife.

Elite Knife Sharpening Solution - Work Sharp Sharpeners (worksharptools.com)


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## kayman67 (Oct 11, 2021)

1. There's a gap that won't allow for good backing. It's also rather narrow or look at it as not tall enough for a wide blade. They should have made it taller somehow. Some parts of the blade won't be touched at all unless the blade fits. Even so, the gap is another problem. 
2. More space, no backing at all. You need to use something. Not an easy task. 
3. Just too narrow and problematic to be used for anything better than 1.
These are all the spaces it has usable. None made for working wide blades like that.


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## kayman67 (Oct 11, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Look at the pictures with Ken Onion sharpening a chef's knife.


Our talk is not about sharpening, but proper thinning wide blades like on a grinder and this is not that.


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## juice (Oct 11, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> my Worksharp Ken Onion sharpener


I'm disappointed this took until the fourth post of the thread to appear.


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## coxhaus (Oct 11, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Our talk is not about sharpening, but proper thinning wide blades like on a grinder and this is not that.



If you adjust the pulley between 2 and 3 to 10 degrees it is going to be mainly flat down only 10 degrees. The picture has the pulley set at 30 degrees down. When I used a used a 4-inch belt sander it is pretty hard to get the vise to hold it perfectly flat. But I have never thinned knives.

I would think the surface contact area on a grinding wheel would not be greater unless you turned the wheel flat then you would have to contend with half the wheel turning one way and the other turning the opposite direction as it touches the blade.


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## kayman67 (Oct 11, 2021)

Thus my number 2 reply. 
Better space available, tricky to make good use of it.


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## kayman67 (Oct 11, 2021)

juice said:


> I'm disappointed this took until the fourth post of the thread to appear.


Maybe because here very few people use this? 
I guess it's mostly stones (like me) or bigger grinders.


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## coxhaus (Oct 11, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Maybe because here very few people use this?
> I guess it's mostly stones (like me) or bigger grinders.


I would think those are some pretty big grinders for home use $$$ especially if you are doing 10 and 12 inch knives.


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## kayman67 (Oct 11, 2021)

Not cheap for sure. But a full set of KO, with the attachments and good belts, won't be exactly cheap either. Not that the stones are cheap.


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## tostadas (Oct 11, 2021)

Is there anything that a Ken Onion work sharp *can't* do?


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## kayman67 (Oct 11, 2021)

For sharpening? Well, depends on your perspective. It does convex edges and you can build on that, if that's what you need/want.


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## coxhaus (Oct 11, 2021)

The Worksharp Ken Onion works for me. I have 30 sharp kitchen knives all the time with very little effort.


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## Dominick Maone (Oct 11, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Maybe because here very few people use this?
> I guess it's mostly stones (like me) or bigger grinders.


Kayman- he is being sarcastic.


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## kayman67 (Oct 11, 2021)

Didn't pick up on that. I'm a pretty straight forward guy most of the time.


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## juice (Oct 11, 2021)

tostadas said:


> Is there anything that a Ken Onion work sharp *can't* do?


Get users to not mention it in every thread?


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## daveb (Oct 11, 2021)

tostadas said:


> Is there anything that a Ken Onion work sharp *can't* do?



Be in the same room as any of my knives.....


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## ian (Oct 11, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I would think those are some pretty big grinders for home use $$$ especially if you are doing 10 and 12 inch knives.



I would guess that basically everyone who has a big grinder is using it for something more than sharpening and thinning their own knives. Most people just have stones.


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## coxhaus (Oct 11, 2021)

I have a grinder and a commercial polisher. I only use my grinder for grinding steel and I keep a wire wheel on 1 side to clean rust off. My grinding wheel is too coarse to touch it to a knife.


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## Tapio (Oct 15, 2021)

There are many reason why I prefer freehand sharpening. I enjoy learning and doing freehand sharpening. Sharpening systems kill all the fun. Freehand is compatible with every blade I own including straight razor, single bevel kitchen knives, planes, chisels, scissor, scandi grind puukko knives, convex bevels etc. Big whetstones for freehand wear really slowly. The water and slur on a whetsrone absorbs all the particles that are removed from the blade. No need to worry about inhaling metal particles.


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## Nemo (Oct 15, 2021)

It's pretty easy to remove a lot of steel with power tools. Much more than you need to. Or intended to. Also pretty easy to overheat the steel at the edge. Especially if the knife is thin behind the edge. Which it probably won't be if you removed too much steel, I guess.


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