# Question about flattening



## ikyjr23 (Jan 16, 2015)

I have a 220 grit ceramic stone and 800/4k combo waterstone as well as an 8k finishing stone. Can I flatten with say 1 side of the 220 ceramic?

It is this set from epic edge 

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=80085

I know it's not the best but it was a good starter set and gets the job done. (Thanks Jon and korin for your amazing videos) but I can tell they aren't flat and haven't been flattened since I got them about two years ago for my birthday. I could take pictures of the stones when I get home from work if that would help.

Also what does the term speed mean? 

Obviously feedback means how it feels I would think but I'm not totally familiar with all the sharpening terminology. 

Also I am afraid of thinning the knives myself because I don't want to scratch them or anything. But I would like to learn at some point.


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## Zwiefel (Jan 16, 2015)

You might be better off using automotive sandpaper and your countertop, or a marble tile as you could have confidence that those would be flat. It's likely that your 220 either isn't flat or would quickly become not flat, then you won't have any guarantees. 

When the budget allows for it, I'd recommend a diamond flattening plate for this. 

Also, I'd follow Dave's guidance of rounding the corners of your stones starting about 1/8" from the edge, rather than chamfering them. This solved several problems I had with sharpening a couple of my knives.


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## ikyjr23 (Jan 16, 2015)

Do I just rub the. The sand paper like I was sanding wood or do I glue it on say a wooden block and take the block and use as a stone?


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 16, 2015)

Sorry to hijack the thread, but which problem did you have when you used to chamfer the stone's corners, Zwiefel? I'm asking this to understand why it is better to round the corners.


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## ikyjr23 (Jan 16, 2015)

What is chamfering?


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## ikyjr23 (Jan 16, 2015)

Would something like this work?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 16, 2015)

ikyjr23 said:


> Do I just rub the. The sand paper like I was sanding wood or do I glue it on say a wooden block and take the block and use as a stone?



Put the sheet of wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface, like a smooth floor tile. Some water between the back of the paper and the tile will help to keep it in place. 

Use a pencil to make a crosshatch pattern on the stone you want to flatten. Then rub the stone on the wet/dry sandpaper. The crosshatch pattern will let you see how you are progressing.


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## ikyjr23 (Jan 16, 2015)

ikyjr23 said:


> Would something like this work?



http://korin.com/Pink-Sharpening-Stone-Fixer?sc=27&category=280111


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 16, 2015)

ikyjr23 said:


> What is chamfering?



Here's a picture of a chamfer:


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## ikyjr23 (Jan 16, 2015)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Put the sheet of wet/dry sandpaper on a flat surface, like a smooth floor tile. Some water between the back of the paper and the tile will help to keep it in place.
> 
> Use a pencil to make a crosshatch pattern on the stone you want to flatten. Then rub the stone on the wet/dry sandpaper. The crosshatch pattern will let you see how you are progressing.



Awesome thanks for the advice I have a tile floor in the kitchen so this should work well. What grit would work best? Is this method better than say a flattening stone like this 

http://korin.com/Pink-Sharpening-Stone-Fixer?sc=27&category=280111


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## toddnmd (Jan 16, 2015)

I've used coarse drywall screen on granite tile countertop. I put the screen on the counter, and hold the stone in my hand--like you said, like it's a sanding block. You can take a pencil to make a pattern of various straight lines (horizontal, vertical, diagaonal) to make sure that you have flattened the entire face. 

I'm also curious about rounding the corners instead of chamfering them. I'm guessing that a chamfer is still an angle and can lead to occasional spots where there is more pressure on that edge. I've done that on a couple knives--maybe this will help me to reduce the chances of that happening in the future.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 16, 2015)

ikyjr23 said:


> Awesome thanks for the advice I have a tile floor in the kitchen so this should work well. What grit would work best? Is this method better than say a flattening stone like this
> 
> http://korin.com/Pink-Sharpening-Stone-Fixer?sc=27&category=280111



The problem with stone fixers is that they have to be flattened as well. A diamond plate or wet/dry on a tile eliminates this.


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## ikyjr23 (Jan 16, 2015)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> The problem with stone fixers is that they have to be flattened as well. A diamond plate or wet/dry on a tile eliminates this.



That's ironic


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## Zwiefel (Jan 16, 2015)

ikyjr23,

Chamfering is creating a new bevel where two faces of the stone meet, changing a single 90* angle into two 45* angles. Like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamfer

I would tape the sandpaper down, and move the stone. I've not done this with stones, but I have done it to round the spine on a knife since I don't have a vise (but I do have a vice! :rofl2: ).

Marcelo,

with some stones--mine among them, apparently--the sides (the smaller faces of the stone that you don't typically sharpen on) are the exterior face of a larger block of this material as it is manufactured. Due to the materials and process used, these surfaces are...harder? maybe, not sure what word to use...than the center. This means that there can be a ridge around the edge of the sharpening surface that is slightly raised, which creates problem both during sharpening and during flattening as the blade/flattener gets hung up on these ridges and doesn't touch the full face of the stone. Dave calls it, "giving up the edges to get the center." I had fits with flattening one of my stones until this...and thus with using it to sharpen later on. 

I hope that makes sense.

Here's a photo from an old thread:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...sion-with-Dave?p=223628&viewfull=1#post223628


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## ikyjr23 (Jan 16, 2015)

Yes makes perfect sense. I have been looking at where to buy one online but I don't see one like the stone pictured above


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## ikyjr23 (Jan 16, 2015)

Could I also do this with sand paper chamfering with sand paper like I could with flattening? 

Also what grit of sand paper like 100? And then maybe a finer grit to smoothie it out?


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## Zwiefel (Jan 16, 2015)

ikyjr23 said:


> Could I also do this with sand paper chamfering with sand paper like I could with flattening?
> 
> Also what grit of sand paper like 100? And then maybe a finer grit to smoothie it out?




in terms of, "can I use these materials to perform that task?" yes. However, if you put the sandpaper on the floor, it will be difficult to impossible to physically move the two surfaces together in the way needed....it would be much easier if it the sandpaper were taped to a countertop, near the edge so that you can put only a portion of the edge of the stone on the paper.

Something like this:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ding-the-spine?p=148011&viewfull=1#post148011

As to the grit...I'm not sure what advice to offer, I haven't used sandpaper very much. If the grit is too coarse, then you will leave deep grooves in the stones that will affect the level of finish you give to the edge (perhaps it's not important though). Too fine, and it might take a long time to flatten the stone. Sorry, I just don't have enough experience to make a specific suggestion....I'm sure one of the other guys can.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 16, 2015)

Wow, Zwiefel, what a great explanation! This is the reason i like some much coming here. Thank you!


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## Zwiefel (Jan 16, 2015)

ikyjr23 said:


> That's ironic



It's even worse if the flattener is shorter than the stone since the two will shape themselves to each other (at different rates though). There are a couple of sizes of those stone flatteners, I'd opt for the larger ones if I were to get one....but I wouldn't get one at all, get a diamond flattening plate instead, solves all of those problems.


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## idemhj (Jan 16, 2015)

Zwiefel said:


> get a diamond flattening plate instead, solves all of those problems.


This. I tried all kinds of cheap flattening options, but eventually decided to get an Atoma plate. They are a bit expensive, but they are worth it


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## Ruso (Jan 16, 2015)

idemhj said:


> This. I tried all kinds of cheap flattening options, but eventually decided to get an Atoma plate. They are a bit expensive, but they are worth it



+10 this.


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## ThEoRy (Jan 16, 2015)

Ruso said:


> +10 this.



X 10 that.


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## daveb (Jan 16, 2015)

The Atoma is widely used and liked. JKI has a flattening plate that works well for me. Back in the day I had a DMT XXC plate that did the job and is widely available.


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## cheflarge (Jan 17, 2015)

Cool thread! Very informative & usefull. Great job by all! :cool2: :headbang:


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 17, 2015)

This is messy but it does work:

[video=youtube;MynRw3Y05qs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MynRw3Y05qs[/video]

[video=youtube;Ij5BA-WO_XE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij5BA-WO_XE[/video]

[video=youtube;i6WFLeC_NCo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6WFLeC_NCo[/video]


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Jan 17, 2015)

I used the DMT XC for years and it worked fine. The Atoma 140 was aggressive but, until it was worn in a bit, left deep gouges in the stones. I have just discovered the 3M 6220J diamond plate in 125u and it is aggressive like the Atoma but leaves a perfect finish. Superior construction. A real winner. Problem is at most vendors you have to buy them in sets of 5 which costs as much as a car payment. If you can find a single I recommend giving it a shot. 

Cheers,

Rick


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 17, 2015)

Rick, searching for 6220J brings up "3M 6220J Flexible Diamond Whetstone" -- what is flexible about it? How long have you been using it and does it appear that it will last?


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Jan 17, 2015)

Yeah, I don't get the flexible part. Like the Atoma its a sheet of matrixed diamonds bonded to a staunch piece of milled aluminum. Can't help you on the longevity since it's relatively new. Looks at least as tough as the Atoma. 

Cheers,

Rick


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## panda (Jan 17, 2015)

started with a dmt because didn't want to shell out for atoma, hate it because of stiction. once i couldnt stand it anymore, got around to getting one (atoma) and it is completely worth it!


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## ikyjr23 (Jan 17, 2015)

Thanks everybody for all the help


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## Jpox (Jan 17, 2015)

I opted for the ezeelap 250 instead of the 140. The 140 is a good 20 more expensive and leaves deeper scratches in the stone being flattened which I don't like. Rather save a little money and use a little longer on the diamond. Since the 250 is a bit finer, it's quite easy removing the scratches it leaves in stones above 1k, below 1k no real need.

I have tried using sandpaper but I really hated it,leaves a mess and not as practical as having a dm-plate ready at hand

Cheers


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## idemhj (Jan 17, 2015)

FWIW. When I originally said I had decided to get an Atoma plate and that it was worth it (totally worth it I might add), I wasnt implying that Atoma plates are the only good diamond plates, just that it worked for me  and it worked a hell of a lot better than all other kinds of flattening devices Ive tried. I got an Atoma plate because that was what I could get in Denmark where I happen to live (Maksim at JNS has them)

As to the question of Atoma plates leaving deep scratches in your stones (I guess we are talking the 140 grit which is the one I have), well, yes they do, but for me that is not a big concern  it does not really interfere with your sharpening, albeit it may mean that the stone will leave an edge with a bit more bite (says Jon, somewhere which I cannot find right now).


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## JBroida (Jan 17, 2015)

yeah... on synthetic stones, scratches on the surface help the stone hold water better, provide better tactile feedback, faster cutting speed. However, polish is effected by this kind of surface conditioning (not that i care that much, but its important to note).


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## Kentucky (Jan 17, 2015)

If you are using sandpaper something I like to use with it is a Granite surface plate..I already had a surface plate for other shop work but they are heavy, very flat and inexpensive..They also work well for the "scary sharp" method that I use to use on chisels and plane irons..Of course if you have waterstones to flatten you don't need the scary sharp method but I thought Id throw that in there:biggrin:
I talked to a gentleman that used the 3M diamond plate and he said he liked it better than the DMT or Atoma..


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