# Best pan for ragu



## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

I cook ragu fairly often. The kids like it and it frezes well for a quick midweek meal.

I use (a modification of) Marcella Hazan's recipe. It's essentially a gradual simmering reduction of a liquid sauce until it becomes paste-like or almost solid.

The thing that really annoys me is when it burns on the base of pan. When I first started making it, I used an ECI (enamellied cast iron) casserole, which needed constant attention to prevent burning. I now use a 10 litre generic (I think it is made by Silampos for a local cookware retailer FWIW) stainless casserole/stockpot with an aluminum base. This is better but I wonder whether a better pan would prevent sticking. I'm not adverse to spending up for a pan that I would use a lot if it would be a significant improvement. 

What do you use / recommend?


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## M1k3 (Aug 22, 2021)

I don't have a specific brand to recommend, but, I like a rondeau for this application.


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## Rainman890 (Aug 22, 2021)

Get something with a heavy bottom, this will work the best against sticking, because the heat stays even and doesn't fluctuate too much.

Also, use enough oil, and pay attention to the ragu during the critical phases...

Edit: for example, a le creuset enamel pot would work, or something similar (because those are expensive)


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## Michi (Aug 22, 2021)

Enameled dutch oven works well for this. Or anything else with a heavy base that stores a lot of heat.


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## Helicon (Aug 22, 2021)

I usually make 3-4x batches of Marcella's ragu recipe, and freeze what I don't use within the first 2-3 days. For these proportions, my favorite vessels are the Fissler Profi and Paderno GG 28 cm rondeaus/casseroles, with about 7 liters total volume. Their thick aluminum disc bases are outstanding at diffusing heat and preventing scorching over super long cooking times. Plus, I don't have to hover over the cooktop – usually I only need to stir every 30 minutes or so during the different simmering stages. This construction is far better than ECI for this task, in my experience. 

Here are links to the two products in case you're interested: 


https://www.amazon.de/-/en/dp/B000JJGJAM/ref=twister_B07D7NMFMH


and





Paderno World Cuisine"Grand Gourmet" 1-3/8 Quart Rondeau Stainless Steel, Silver : Amazon.de


Paderno World Cuisine"Grand Gourmet" 1-3/8 Quart Rondeau Stainless Steel, Silver : Amazon.de



www.amazon.de


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

Rainman890 said:


> Get something with a heavy bottom, this will work the best against sticking, because the heat stays even and doesn't fluctuate too much.
> 
> Also, use enough oil, and pay attention to the ragu during the critical phases...
> 
> Edit: for example, a le creuset enamel pot would work, or something similar (because those are expensive)





Michi said:


> Enameled dutch oven works well for this. Or any thing else with a heavy base that stores a lot of heat.


Yeah I had assumed that an ECI (French oven / Enamelled Dutch Oven) would do this job well, but my experience is that even a modest quality aluminium-based stainless steel pot works better.


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

Helicon said:


> I usually make 3-4x batches of Marcella's ragu recipe, and freeze what I don't use within the first 2-3 days. For these proportions, my favorite vessels are the Fissler Profi and Paderno GG 28 cm rondeaus/casseroles, with about 7 liters total volume. Their thick aluminum disc bases are outstanding at diffusing heat and preventing scorching over super long cooking times. Plus, I don't have to hover over the cooktop – usually I only need to stir every 30 minutes or so during the different simmering stages. This construction is far better than ECI for this task, in my experience.
> 
> Here are links to the two products in case you're interested:
> 
> ...



Yeah, it's a great dish to make too much of then freeze the excess.

Thanks for the links.

I have not seen Fissler (except for pressure cookers) or Paderno in Australia but I will investigate further.

I surmise from your recommendations that you are saying that the heaviest posslble aluminium (or copper aluminium composite) base is superior to a clad or a copper pot (for this appliccation)?


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## Michi (Aug 22, 2021)

Nemo said:


> I have not seen Fissler (except for pressure cookers) or Paderno in Australia but I will investigate further.


Myer carry quite a large range of Fissler pots and pans.


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## Helicon (Aug 22, 2021)

Nemo said:


> I surmise from your recommendations that you are saying that the heaviest posslble aluminium (or copper aluminium composite) base is superior to a clad or a copper pot (for this appliccation)?


Basically, yes. In my experience it's about maximizing the heat capacity and spread along the base of the vessel, so unless you can find really thick copper (~3-4 mm), I wouldn't consider it. And even then those sorts of copper pots are much more expensive. Copper really shines in terms of responsiveness, but you don't need responsiveness for a long-simmered dish like this. You need steady, slow, and very even heat over hours of simmering time.

Another model you might consider is Spanish, and usually sells for slightly less money – Lacor Chef Luxe, model #54028.


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## Michi (Aug 22, 2021)

I've made many ragùs over the years in this Fissler pan. Works extremely well, due to the thick base.


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## Helicon (Aug 22, 2021)

Michi said:


> I've made many ragùs over the years in this Fissler pan. Works extremely well, due to the thick base.


That looks almost exactly like their current Crispy Steelux frying pan. Amazing how little it's changed over 30+ years: Fissler Crispy Steelux Premium Frying Pan, 28 cm : Amazon.de: Home & Kitchen


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

Michi said:


> Myer carry quite a large range of Fissler pots and pans.


Thanks, gonna have a look.


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## Michi (Aug 22, 2021)

Helicon said:


> That looks almost exactly like their current Crispy Steelux frying pan.


Yes, that's essentially the same pan, just with a steel handle. A steel handle is preferable to a plastic one, in my opinion. On the other hand, the plastic handle on mine is still going strong over thirty years later. It has discoloured somewhat, but doesn't show any signs of going brittle.

I don't know what the temperature limit is for that handle, though. I've never had that pan in an oven, but I expect it would cope up to 200 ºC.


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

Helicon said:


> Basically, yes. In my experience it's about maximizing the heat capacity and spread along the base of the vessel, so unless you can find really thick copper (~3-4 mm), I wouldn't consider it. And even then those sorts of copper pots are much more expensive. Copper really shines in terms of responsiveness, but you don't need responsiveness for a long-simmered dish like this. You need steady, slow, and very even heat over hours of simmering time.
> 
> Another model you might consider is Spanish, and usually sells for slightly less money – Lacor Chef Luxe, model #54028.


How does Demeyere Atlantis (or Apollo) compare to Fissler, Paderno GG and Lacor?


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## Rainman890 (Aug 22, 2021)

Another thing to consider: if you have an oven proof pan/pot, you can cook it low and slow in the oven, which works great for long slow cooks/braises...


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## Garm (Aug 22, 2021)

Nemo said:


> Yeah I had assumed that an ECI (French oven / Enamelled Dutch Oven) would do this job well, but my experience is that even a modest quality aluminium-based stainless steel pot works better.


I use an Enamelled Dutch Oven on the stovetop until all ingredients are mixed/pre-cooked, and then transfer it to the oven to avoid the issues you mention. Slow cooking in the oven is where this cookware excels IMO.

Edit:Rainman beat me to it


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

Rainman890 said:


> Another thing to consider: if you have an oven proof pan/pot, you can cook it low and slow in the oven, which works great for long slow cooks/braises...





Garm said:


> I use an Enamelled Dutch Oven on the stovetop until all ingredients are mixed/pre-cooked, and then transfer it to the oven to avoid the issues you mention. Slow cooking in the oven is where this cookware excels IMO.
> 
> Edit:Rainman beat me to it


I agree that ECI is great for stovetop then transfer to oven.


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## Heckel7302 (Aug 22, 2021)

I use ECI in the oven. Works great. It can hang out in there all day with almost no attention.


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## Helicon (Aug 22, 2021)

Nemo said:


> How does Demeyere Atlantis (or Apollo) compare to Fissler, Paderno GG and Lacor?


Atlantis is very good cookware, but it's still only got 2 mm of copper in its bases. In pieces wider than ~20 cm I just don't feel it's enough. And of course it's much more expensive than the alternatives. Apollo has about 5 mm of aluminum so it's a better choice here, but still not quite as good as the others I mentioned, which have ≥6.5 mm of aluminum.

As for cooking ragu in the oven, I've never found the liquids to evaporate quickly enough. It ends up taking twice as long as on the stovetop. YMMV of course but I think stovetop is absolutely the best approach for this recipe.


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## coxhaus (Aug 22, 2021)

Nemo said:


> I cook ragu fairly often. The kids like it and it frezes well for a quick midweek meal.
> 
> I use (a modification of) Marcella Hazan's recipe. It's essentially a gradual simmering reduction of a liquid sauce until it becomes paste-like or almost solid.
> 
> ...



This is interesting. What kind of stove top are you cooking on? If you are using gas what burner size?


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## rickbern (Aug 22, 2021)

Hands down, the best pot for cooking ragu would be made out of clay (even better than terracotta). Clay pots are perfect for this sort of slow release of flavor. Here's my tool of choice:

Black Clay, La Chamba Rounded Soup Pot | Ancient Cookware

And, lest you think I'm just an outlier nut, there's at least two such nuts in the world

Ragù alla bolognese (Bolognese Sauce) | Memorie di Angelina

Here's a quote from his footnotes:

*Notes*​The best cooking vessel by far for a _ragù_ is a terracotta pot. But if you don’t have one, then an enameled cast iron Dutch oven will do quite well. Although I don’t own one, I have to imagine that this sauce was just made for a slow-cooker or crock pot. Whichever pot you use, it should preferably be rather taller than it is wide, to avoid excess evaporation during the long simmering. If need be, you can always add a bit or water or light broth to thin out the sauce if it reduces too much.​​PS-This is a great recipe, he explains the slow cooking process (which I think is more important than specific ingredients) as well as anyone.

And once again, the SHAPE of the pan is probably more important than the construction, for the reason he states. You can't lazy simmer in a saute pan, don't care whether it's disc based, copper, etc.


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## Helicon (Aug 22, 2021)

rickbern said:


> You can't lazy simmer in a saute pan, don't care whether it's disc based, copper, etc.


Nonsense, of course one can. But if you cannot manage it, that's likely a problem with your cooktop and you might consider using a diffuser plate.

A rondeau/casserole shape – basically a slightly tall two-handled sauté – actually works optimally for dishes that *require* evaporation. I fully agree that taller, narrower pots are ideal for things like stock-making, where evaporation would be counterproductive. But ragu requires evaporation in multiple stages (milk, wine, tomatoes), and having a pot taller than it is wide would slow things down far too much. As it is, a triple batch of Hazan's ragu takes me about 8-10 hours on my cooktop.


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## parbaked (Aug 22, 2021)

I reduce ragu stove top in a saute pan...


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## rmrf (Aug 22, 2021)

I make ragu in a 6 qt all clad tri layer saute pan, ~13" diameter. Wide and shallow. I don't get much sticking. I can get "lazy simmer" without too much problem but I know my induction stove's low end heat pretty well. I've also used a 6 qt all clad pot thats more like 10-11" diameter. Both work fine. I use the 13" these days because it reduces quicker.

I've used enameled cast iron before and I got sticking or burning problems. Cast iron has too high thermal resistivity for my stove. 

For storage, I heat the ragu until it is simmering, and pour it hot into mason jars and seal the lid. I wait for it to cool then put it into the fridge. I used to simmer in water to hot pack but I found that if you store in the fridge it doesn't really matter. I've forgotten a jar in the back of my fridge for a month or two. I didn't see any mold, it didn't taste or smell off, and I didn't get sick but I probably wouldn't recommend waiting that long. I used to freeze the jars but I have less freezer space than fridge space.


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## daveb (Aug 22, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> I don't have a specific brand to recommend, but, I like a rondeau for this application.



This. Or as the kids will call it, a Rondo.

On gas stoves I also like to take lid from tomato can (#10) and put it down as a diffuser. Let it burn off a couple minutes. Cheap.


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## rickbern (Aug 22, 2021)

Helicon said:


> Nonsense, of course one can. But if you cannot manage it, that's likely a problem with your cooktop and you might consider using a diffuser plate.
> 
> A rondeau/casserole shape – basically a slightly tall two-handled sauté – actually works optimally for dishes that *require* evaporation. I fully agree that taller, narrower pots are ideal for things like stock-making, where evaporation would be counterproductive. But ragu requires evaporation in multiple stages (milk, wine, tomatoes), and having a pot taller than it is wide would slow things down far too much. As it is, a triple batch of Hazan's ragu takes me about 8-10 hours on my cooktop.


Yes, of course you can simmer slowly in a saute pan. I did it for years. You can also dice an onion with a honesuki, doesn't make it the OPTIMAL tool for the job. If you really are doing a 4-6 hour simmer of a meat sauce (after you've spent an hour slowly coaxing the sweetness out of the base ingredients) at a very low temperature, a pot with less surface area to volume, therefore less evaporation will produce slightly better results. The sauce will naturally evaporate a little but honestly I don't lose that much moisture over six hours of cooking. If your process calls for reducing the ragu, a la @parbaked , then absolutely a saute will yield better (faster) results than a deeper pot.

I always found the low and slow process more difficult to manage in a metal saute pan than in a deeper clay pot, therefore for my money, a deep clay pot is the bees knees of ragu cooking vessels.

Now, as penance for maybe being misinterpreted, I'm going to only use a honesuki to make dinner!

edit

Here's a picture of Marcella Hazan making what I'm assuming is a ragu

Marcella Hazan: Matthew Fort pays tribute | Italian food and drink | The Guardian


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## rickbern (Aug 22, 2021)

Also, I have to say, this is really dependent on the quantity you're making. I usually make ragu with about 1.5 lbs of meat and a 14oz box of tomatoes. I'm not a huge sauce guy, that's enough for 3-4 dinner for two. If I was making it with 4 lbs of meat I might use a rondeau (although I'd prefer a stew pot), but for a home cook making average quantities, even using a 24cm saute pan the quantity I make would not be very deep in the pot.


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## Jovidah (Aug 22, 2021)

I always just stir every now and then and add some water if it gets too dry... I must be underthinking the whole affair.


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## Rainman890 (Aug 22, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> I always just stir every now and then and add some water if it gets too dry... I must be underthinking the whole affair.


Does it taste good? Then it's fine.


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## Helicon (Aug 22, 2021)

rickbern said:


> Yes, of course you can simmer slowly in a saute pan.
> 
> If you really are doing a 4-6 hour simmer of a meat sauce (after you've spent an hour slowly coaxing the sweetness out of the base ingredients) at a very low temperature, a pot with less surface area to volume, therefore less evaporation will produce slightly better results. The sauce will naturally evaporate a little but honestly I don't lose that much moisture over six hours of cooking.


Honestly, you've just completely contradicted yourself about simmering in a sauté pan. You've also made it clear you're not actually following Marcella's recipe. She specifically calls for evaporating the watery liquid before proceeding with each successive step, and at the end the sauce should be completely dry. The only liquid remaining should be fat – from the beef, butter, etc – and the fat should separate from the meat.

For the milk, she writes: "Add milk and let it simmer gently, stirring frequently, until it has bubbled away completely."
For the wine, she writes: "Add the wine, let it simmer until it has evaporated..." etc etc

If you don't lose moisture over 4-6 hours you're not making Marcella's ragu.


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## Delat (Aug 22, 2021)

Stick it in the oven for the first couple hours, then finish up on the stove. I do that sometimes after reading about it on serious eats.

But even when I do it on the stove for a solid 4-5 hours I don’t have any burning. That might be because I don’t actually let it evaporate all the way down to dry though as we like a bit of sauce. In any case I use a deep stainless steel calphalon (or maybe all-clad, I can’t recall) pot.


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## rickbern (Aug 22, 2021)

Helicon said:


> Honestly, you've just completely contradicted yourself about simmering in a sauté pan. You've also made it clear you're not actually following Marcella's recipe. She specifically calls for evaporating the watery liquid before proceeding with each successive step, and at the end the sauce should be completely dry. The only liquid remaining should be fat – from the beef, butter, etc – and the fat should separate from the meat.
> 
> For the milk, she writes: "Add milk and let it simmer gently, stirring frequently, until it has bubbled away completely."
> For the wine, she writes: "Add the wine, let it simmer until it has evaporated..." etc etc
> ...


Exactly! You've hit the nail right on the head.

After you evaporate the wine and milk, that's when you let it rip for a few hours, as long as your idea of ripping involves really looooow heat. You leave the pan partially covered (or at least I do) and you should get very little evaporation. 

Seriously though, there's a million ways to do this, I'm not trying to convert you, I'm just explaining my process.

Also, I second @daveb that a heat diffuser of some sort is a good addition to keep your stove slow enough no matter what pot or pan you use.


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## chefwp (Aug 22, 2021)

I'm going to go out on a limb hear and say that it may not be an issue with your pot, but that you need to add some more liquid as the bottom of your pan is drying out, just a bit towards the end, maybe more than once, add a 1/4 cup and give it a good stir if you see that it is drying out too much. You could use water, stock, tomato... If I remember correctly, Macella's recipe even calls for this.


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> This is interesting. What kind of stove top are you cooking on? If you are using gas what burner size?


Gas. It's a Smeg cooktop. Probably at least 20 years old and still going strong. But...

We are on LPG which does burn hotter than natural gas from the town supply. Even so, the small burner on minimum is pretty good for maintaining a low simmer.

However it was still a problem when we were on town gas (and a much cheaper cooktop).


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

rickbern said:


> Hands down, the best pot for cooking ragu would be made out of clay (even better than terracotta). Clay pots are perfect for this sort of slow release of flavor. Here's my tool of choice:
> 
> Black Clay, La Chamba Rounded Soup Pot | Ancient Cookware
> 
> ...



I wasn't aware that clay could be used over a gas flame. Is it all clay or only specific types?

Thanks for the interesting link on ragu technique.


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

daveb said:


> This. Or as the kids will call it, a Rondo.
> 
> On gas stoves I also like to take lid from tomato can (#10) and put it down as a diffuser. Let it burn off a couple minutes. Cheap.


Maybe I will try using a diffuser.


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

rickbern said:


> Now, as penance for maybe being misinterpreted, I'm going to only use a honesuki to make dinner!
> 
> edit
> 
> ...


I hope you were not making a big batch of ragu with your honesuki! That would be a major challenge.

I recognise the quote at the start of the article from her ragu recipe.


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

chefwp said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb hear and say that it may not be an issue with your pot, but that you need to add some more liquid as the bottom of your pan is drying out, just a bit towards the end, maybe more than once, add a 1/4 cup and give it a good stir if you see that it is drying out too much. You could use water, stock, tomato... If I remember correctly, Macella's recipe even calls for this.


I do expect it to catch once it dries out and I do add a little water if this happens. And I pay the ragu much more attention at this stage.

Just to be clear, burning is not a major issue in the liquid stages of reduction unless I get distracted and forget to stir it for too long- all too easy with a looooong simmer.

I guess the question I am asking is "can I find a pot/pan (or technique) that gives me more leeway if I forget to stir for too long?"


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## chefwp (Aug 22, 2021)

Nemo said:


> I do expect it to catch once it dries out and I do add a little water if this happens. And I pay the ragu much more attention at this stage.
> 
> Just to be clear, burning is not a major issue in the liquid stages of reduction unless I get distracted and forget to stir it for too long- all too easy with a looooong simmer.
> 
> I guess the question I am asking is "can I find a pot/pan (or technique) that gives me more leeway if I forget to stir for too long?"


ok, gotcha. I use an old large 12" all-clad copper-outside/stainless-inside sauce pan. Once I get the simmering stage I adjust the heat so there is just the occasional bubble, (so low-simmer?) on a gas range. I stir it if I'm passing by, maybe between 10-20 min intervals.
good luck and happy cooking.


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## Nemo (Aug 22, 2021)

chefwp said:


> ok, gotcha. I use an old large 12" all-clad copper-outside/stainless-inside sauce pan. Once I get the simmering stage I adjust the heat so there is just the occasional bubble, (so low-simmer?) on a gas range. I stir it if I'm passing by, maybe between 10-20 min intervals.
> good luck and happy cooking.


All-clad is not widely available here. There are a couple of W-S stores that sell it but it ain't cheap.


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## chefwp (Aug 22, 2021)

Nemo said:


> All-clad is not widely available here. There are a couple of W-S stores that sell it but it ain't cheap.


I am fortunate to live near the factory. They have a twice a year 'seconds' sale where stuff is marked down up to 70%. The copper stuff I have was also discontinued in 2018...


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## Justinv (Aug 23, 2021)

Nemo said:


> I wasn't aware that clay could be used over a gas flame. Is it all clay or only specific types?



Some types of clay cookware exist and can be used on flames. Certainly not all. Its a culturally traditional vessel in some areas and those cultures have worked out clay, glaze, seasoning methods, etc. I have a Japanese clay pot that gets used at the table over an open butane burner. Its also used on the stove to make broth. Note: I have lots of pots. Clay conducts heat poorly so you need a much higher flame to get similar results to metal cookware. I hear rumors the clay pot I have works on induction which is more than odd and I may have to try it someday.


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## Helicon (Aug 23, 2021)

rickbern said:


> Exactly! You've hit the nail right on the head.
> 
> After you evaporate the wine and milk, that's when you let it rip for a few hours, as long as your idea of ripping involves really looooow heat. You leave the pan partially covered (or at least I do) and you should get very little evaporation.
> 
> ...


There's simply no need to cover the pot during any of the cooking. Marcella even specifies: "Cook, uncovered, for 3 hours or more, stirring from time to time."

Anything that inhibits evaporation – putting the pot in an oven, covering it with a lid, etc – simply isn't necessary and slows the process. It already takes me about 4-5 hours from adding the tomatoes to reaching the dry sauce stage, using a large rondeau at "the laziest of simmers".

If you're following a different recipe, that's fine, but for the sake of this discussion it would probably be easiest to stick with what the OP is asking for: the best pan in which to cook Marcella's ragu recipe.


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## rickbern (Aug 23, 2021)

Nemo said:


> I wasn't aware that clay could be used over a gas flame. Is it all clay or only specific types?
> 
> Thanks for the interesting link on ragu technique.


I’ve gotten into using lots of clay pots over the last couple of years. They’re great at slowing things down and coaxing flavor out slowly. 

Here’s a decent introductory article 









The Food & Wine Guide to Clay Pot Cooking


An in-depth exploration of the history and science of clay-pot cooking, with recipes, useful tips, and easy techniques.




www.foodandwine.com





And this book is the one that absolutely got me hooked






Mediterranean Clay Pot Cooking: Traditional and Modern Recipes to Savor and Share - Kindle edition by Wolfert, Paula. Cookbooks, Food & Wine Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.


Mediterranean Clay Pot Cooking: Traditional and Modern Recipes to Savor and Share - Kindle edition by Wolfert, Paula. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading Mediterranean Clay Pot Cooking...



www.amazon.com


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## rickbern (Aug 23, 2021)

Justinv said:


> Some types of clay cookware exist and can be used on flames. Certainly not all. Its a culturally traditional vessel in some areas and those cultures have worked out clay, glaze, seasoning methods, etc. I have a Japanese clay pot that gets used at the table over an open butane burner. Its also used on the stove to make broth. Note: I have lots of pots. Clay conducts heat poorly so you need a much higher flame to get similar results to metal cookware. I hear rumors the clay pot I have works on induction which is more than odd and I may have to try it someday.


Put a cast iron skillet on the induction cooktop and put the clay pot on that. Should work just fine

Trick with all clay pots is to start them cold and bring them up to heat slowly


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## Justinv (Aug 23, 2021)

Thanks for the article rickbern. I can’t say I’ve bought into clay pots. I have used them but I have yet to find a reason to prefer them to typical cookware. I just had a debate with my wife about this. She wants individual clay cookware and I told her to get one and I’ll use an all-clad saucier.


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## Helicon (Aug 23, 2021)

rickbern said:


> Put a cast iron skillet on the induction cooktop and put the clay pot on that. Should work just fine
> 
> Trick with all clay pots is to start them cold and bring them up to heat slowly


Just curious if you've actually tried this before. Leaving a hot cast iron pan against an induction cooktop for 8-10 hours will put a *lot* of thermal stress on the electronics. Not to mention that the cast iron pan and the clay pot together won't provide decent evenness of heat. IME clay pots perform best when restricted to oven use only. Beans turn out great when cooked this way, for example.


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## rickbern (Aug 23, 2021)

Helicon said:


> Just curious if you've actually tried this before. Leaving a hot cast iron pan against an induction cooktop for 8-10 hours will put a *lot* of thermal stress on the electronics. Not to mention that the cast iron pan and the clay pot together won't provide decent evenness of heat. IME clay pots perform best when restricted to oven use only. Beans turn out great when cooked this way, for example.


Check your device instructions. Im just a guy on the internet


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## coxhaus (Aug 23, 2021)

I had left over garden tomatoes and chili meat, chuck 80/20, in the freezer. So, I am trying Marcella Hazan's recipe with my All-Clad copper core pan. So does this look right? Now I guess I need a bunch of hours on the fresh frozen tomatoes, right? The tomatoes are thawed. It turns out if you freeze a fresh tomato when you thaw it out the skins peel right off. I peeled all the tomatoes before I added them. I used a Chardonnay wine. I tripled the recipe since I had 2.2 lbs of meat. I may use a stick blender toward the end to make everything smaller. This is not something I normally cook.

So, I guess it is done? It cooked about 6 hours maybe a little less. Bottom picture. The All-Clad copper core 5 qt sauté' pan worked fine. I am not sure what it is supposed to taste like but it is smooth with a depth of flavors.

I guess I could do a better job on the carrots and celery next time. The onion cooked away but not the carrots and celery. 

PS
Am I mixing up ragu and Bolognese sauce? I googled Marcella Hazan ragu and this is what came up.

Marcella Hazan’s Bolognese Sauce Recipe - NYT Cooking (nytimes.com)

PPS
I just saw the Test Kitchen do a ragu without tomatoes. They cooked pork butt. So, I now thinking I am still on target and we really are talking Bolognese sauce which might be 1 form of ragu, ragu being a general title.


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## Nemo (Aug 23, 2021)

It looks the right consistency but I usually cut the carrot and celery finer, so you can barely see them in the finished product. I do a fine julienne then slice it finely across the batons. Great test of wedging resistance (in the whole carrot) and food shedding (in the final dice). The beef grains also look a little large, so maybe need a bit more separating when the meat is added. Marcella recommends using a fork IIRC. I use this:









Hackit – Kitchen Utensil Red (Made in Australia) | Victoria's Basement







www.victoriasbasement.com.au





I think that ragu is the Bolognese name for their meat sauce. It's apparently not uncommon for the Bolognese to use ground pork as well as ground beef.


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## ptolemy (Aug 23, 2021)

I made few of these in 8qt pans (all-clad tk tondeau and falk 8.4qt) and I found it to be lacking in size. Now I use a 19qt 3.5mm copper + tin lined rondeau I got from edihillerin. I make 1 large batch with about 15 lbs of meat, 2 bottles of wine, etc etc (kinda my own recipe made from few others I liked) I freeze the rest in 4qt contrainers (makes about 4 full ones) and it lasts me for months...

It def works well, since I now make it 2-3 times a year, vs 6-7. But, is it worth paying $700+ for a pot it? Only you can decide that . I sold 6 pots to justify that 1... but I am a bit crazy


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## coxhaus (Aug 23, 2021)

Nemo said:


> It looks the right consistency but I usually cut the carrot and celery finer, so you can barely see them in the finished product. I do a fine julienne then slice it finely across the batons. Greatest of wedging resistance (in the whole carrot) and food shedding (in the final dice). The beef grains also look a little large, so maybe need a bit more separating when the meat is added. Marcella recommends using a fork IIRC. I use this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I actually own one of those utensils. I have never cooked this before as I have never eaten Bolognese before either. If I cook it again, I will do better on the carrots and celery as I have no reference point since I have never eaten it before. The meat really kind of cooked apart. I wondered if I cooked it too long.

I just wanted to test my pan to see how well it worked after reading this thread.

Do you always use white wine? I read on the internet that a light red wine was what you wanted to use. My recipe was white wine.


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## Nemo (Aug 24, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I actually own one of those utensils. I have never cooked this before as I have never eaten Bolognese before either. If I cook it again, I will do better on the carrots and celery as I have no reference point since I have never eaten it before. The meat really kind of cooked apart. I wondered if I cooked it too long.
> 
> I just wanted to test my pan to see how well it worked after reading this thread.
> 
> Do you always use white wine? I read on the internet that a light red wine was what you wanted to use. My recipe was white wine.


I aim to have about a 2mm dice for my soffritto. That way you can really get the carrot and celery coating the grains of beef, making it easier to separate them. Do this before you fully cook the beef.

I always use white wine. By all means, use red, but it won't be authentic. Might still be very nice, though.


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## Nemo (Aug 24, 2021)

I'm gonna try a 10lt 28cm fissler original pro pot. If I bought it at Myer, it was gonna be extremely expensive, so I tried an online cookware place in Melbourne. I also bought a heat diffuser. I'll report back when I've tried them out.Thanks to everybody for their wisdom.

Feel free ro use this thread to talk more about ragu or the cookware that suits it if you want to.


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## coxhaus (Aug 24, 2021)

Let us know how the new pot works out. I would like a picture if you can. I would like to see your Bolognese.

I have one other novice question, what white wine is best?


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## Nemo (Aug 24, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Let us know how the new pot works out. I would like a picture if you can. I would like to see your Bolognese.
> 
> I have one other novice question, what white wine is best?


I actually have some pictures, I'll post when I get a chance.

I think if you follow the rule, "Never cook with a wine that you wouldn't be happy to drink", you should be fine. Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc and Riesling all work well.


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## Justinv (Aug 25, 2021)

I think you will get opinions all over the map on cooking wines. I agree that there are many options, both red and white can work depending on your preference. I’ve made beef burgundy with both red french burgundy and with new world white wine. They are obviously different but both can be good.

i usually use whatever is on hand for cooking wine but I stay away from most new world wines for cooking.

I like european whites from italy, spain, etc. that are dry, crisp, and clean flavored. Most of these are mysery grapes or uncommon varieties. France is expensive for popular regions. I like rhone reds and inexpensive bordeaux reds from france and reds from spain for cooking. For varietals, I use pinot gris, and chardonnay for whites. I avoid riesling, and gewerstraminer for whites. I’ll use anything dry and tasty for reds but I avoid California and Australia for the most part because I prefer old world styles and cooler climates.


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## Justinv (Aug 25, 2021)

And for wine I agree with the above that it must be good for drinking. I usually spend about $10 for a bottle of cooking wine and usually have some with the meal.


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## Jovidah (Aug 25, 2021)

Justinv said:


> And for wine I agree with the above that it must be good for drinking. I usually spend about $10 for a bottle of cooking wine and usually have some with the meal.


Yea I learned this the hard way. Whoever said the quality of wine for cooking doesn't matter must only be using it for 'sweet & sour' dishes. 
My biggest cooking mistake was trying sweet white wine that came in a carton for cooking (Liebfraumilch!). You only make that mistake once...


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## rickbern (Aug 26, 2021)

Nemo said:


> It looks the right consistency but I usually cut the carrot and celery finer, so you can barely see them in the finished product. I do a fine julienne then slice it finely across the batons. Great test of wedging resistance (in the whole carrot) and food shedding (in the final dice). The beef grains also look a little large, so maybe need a bit more separating when the meat is added. Marcella recommends using a fork IIRC. I use this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ragu is a generic term for a meat sauce or stew. The French borrowed the word and turned it into ragout. 

Here’s a recipe from alitalia airlines for a neopolitan ragu; interestingly, they also recommend the use of a terra cotta pot.






Neapolitan ragù recipe: a traditional meat sauce | Alitalia Discover Italy


The Neapolitans say “Addà pippià!”, an expression in dialect meaning that the sauce must simmer very slowly. Before starting, remember that, as the writer Giuseppe Marotta said, the sauce is not prepared: it is achieved as a success!




discoveritaly.alitalia.com





This recipe may be clearer. It makes two courses, first you eat the pasta with the meat flavored tomato sauce, then you have the braised meat as your second plate









Ragú Napoletano (Neapolitan-Style Italian Meat Sauce With Pork, Beef, and Sausage) Recipe


Ragù Napoletano is a meaty stew featuring big chunks of beef, pork, and sausages simmered until fall-apart tender in a deep and rich tomato sauce.




www.seriouseats.com





But if I was making it I’d use Frank’s recipe. The serious eats recipe isn’t very authentic, Parmesan would be decidedly non traditional, and never would I consider a northern pasta for this dish









Il ragù della domenica (Sunday Sauce)


The subject of Sunday Sauce always brings me back to my childhood. My passion for food began early, and most of my culinary Ur-memories lead me back to




memoriediangelina.com


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## coxhaus (Aug 26, 2021)

Here is a link for a non-tomato ragu. It kind of looks good to me.

How to Make the Ultimate Pork, Fennel, and Lemon Ragu - YouTube


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## Rangen (Sep 6, 2021)

Having just made my second quad-recipe Marcella Hazan Bolognese in it, I can say I am thoroughly pleased with my new Breville Stainless Steel 5 quart saute pan. It's just perfect for the job. Appreciate the tip-off from this thread about heavy stainless saute pans being superior to enameled cast iron for this. 

For wine, I used a Soave. I think one needs something not too distinctive (Sauv Blanc, Gruner Veltliner, for example, would bring too much of their peculiar character) and this fills the bill nicely.


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## coxhaus (Sep 7, 2021)

Any pictures? My wife loved Marcella Hazan's recipe.

I am going to make the Ragu Bolognese that Oshidashi posted here.
(95) Whats cooking? **** Making something fine and fancy?** Just plain good? Show us! | Page 391 | Kitchen Knife Forums
I noticed here is another Ragu Bolognese that is very close to the one Oshidashi posted.
Italian Grandma Makes Bolognese Sauce - YouTube Both with basically the same recipe. If you leave out the basil. They both add the milk at the end.

I am just going to use beef and pork. The wife doesn't want me to use veal.

I have some fresh made wide pasta that I made.


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## Luftmensch (Sep 7, 2021)

I posted a recent meal in "Whats cooking":







@Nemo... I am in no way claiming cast iron is the 'best'... but I have yielded good results with it.... Once there is enough heat in the system, I turn the burners all the way down. A gentle, slow simmer is enough.

(Cooked with Little Giant Shiraz - @Nemo, @Michi, @cotedupy, @juice, a reasonable & reasonably priced red! But I am no connoisseur)

[Edit: Not Marcella Hazan's recipe.... ]


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## Michi (Sep 7, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Cooked with Little Giant Shiraz


Thanks for the tip, will give this a try!


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## Pensfan (Sep 7, 2021)

I've cooked mostly Italian for over 30 years. Like others have mentioned, Marcella Hazan was an amazing chef! I still go to her books for ideas and inspirations after all this time.

For the past 20 years I've used an enamel coated dutch oven, I had a Le Creuset for years until we lost it in a house fire. I switched over to Lodge brand and they are really nice for the price. Since I started using an EDO, I've never gone back to stainless steel again


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## Rangen (Sep 7, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Any pictures? My wife loved Marcella Hazan's recipe.



An in-progress picture from the first of the two quad-recipe runs:


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## Lars (Sep 7, 2021)

This is my weapon of choice for making ragu. Spring Brigade Premium rondeau.


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## coxhaus (Sep 7, 2021)

Here is the one I made above. I started with my 5 quart and when he said in the video to add a liter of hot water, I had to switch pots to my 8-quart All-Clad copper core stock pot. It cooked a little over 5 hours.






It was good with homemade pasta.


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## rickbern (Sep 7, 2021)

I know, I’m a lonely voice in the wilderness but.. 

Btw, the order is wrong. The second image is after it’s cooked for several hours, the first is when I added the wine


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## coxhaus (Sep 8, 2021)

rickbern said:


> I know, I’m a lonely voice in the wilderness but..
> 
> Btw, the order is wrong. The second image is after it’s cooked for several hours, the first is when I added the wine
> 
> ...



Nice clay pot. That looks like Marcella Hazan's recipe when I cooked it.

I am kind of liking this Italian cooking. You guys have expanded my skills. I don't remember eating real Italian food like this. Most any Italian food here in Texas has lots of spices in it.


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## rickbern (Sep 8, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> Nice clay pot. That looks like Marcella Hazan's recipe when I cooked it.
> 
> I am kind of liking this Italian cooking. You guys have expanded my skills. I don't remember eating real Italian food like this. Most any Italian food here in Texas has lots of spices in it.


Check out this guys site. For my money the most accessible true Italian cooking geared to an American audience.









Memorie di Angelina


Easy authentic Italian recipes




memoriediangelina.com





I was an enthusiastic early adopter of Marcella hazans books. When I look at the two original volumes now I remember how limited most people’s access to authentic ingredients was. She really transformed the way we eat.


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## rickbern (Sep 18, 2021)

Lots of mentions of Marcella hazan in this thread, her first book is three bucks on kindle today






Essentials of Classic Italian Cooking: Marcella Hazan: 8601400409169: Amazon.com: Books


Essentials of Classic Italian Cooking [Marcella Hazan] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Essentials of Classic Italian Cooking



www.amazon.com


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## coxhaus (Sep 18, 2021)

Here is my copy of a cook book by Marcella Hazan that I own. I have never really used it. I think it was my mom's. I need to start cooking out of it more.


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## JASinIL2006 (Sep 20, 2021)

rickbern said:


> Lots of mentions of Marcella hazan in this thread, her first book is three bucks on kindle today
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for noting this... it's still $3 on Kindle. I just downloaded my copy. A classic!


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## Nemo (Sep 20, 2021)

After along delivery time (thanks Auspost and CV19), I have received the Fissler 10 l casserole and had an opportunity to use it for a big batch of ragu.

It's very heavy, around twice the weight of my old 10 l pan.

As hoped, when it catches, it catches much more evenly over the whole base of the pan. I get the impression that it catches slower and gives much more leeway between when it catches and when it burns.


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## KnightKnightForever (Sep 21, 2021)

Le Creuset Dutch oven all the way


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## coxhaus (Sep 21, 2021)

Nemo said:


> After along delivery time (thanks Auspost and CV19), I have received the Fissler 10 l casserole and had an opportunity to use it for a big batch of ragu.
> 
> It's very heavy, around twice the weight of my old 10 l pan.
> 
> As hoped, when it catches, it catches much more evenly over the whole base of the pan. I get the impression that it catches slower and gives much more leeway between when it catches and when it burns.



You have any pictures? New pans are always fun.


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## parbaked (Sep 22, 2021)

I usually make bolognese resembling the Hazan recipe so I was curious to try the Vincenzo’s Plate method.
I made a half batch with a pound total of beef, veal and pork and one can of Cento San Mariano tomatoes; no passata.




I did cook the tomato paste into the meat and sopressata before adding the tomatoes out of habit.
Cooked down for six hours in an All Clad D3 saucepan until pretty dry, no burning.




I chilled it overnight then reheated two portions with milk and butter for dinner.




Served with pappardelle, basil and some cheesy garlic bread…


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