# Seeking to understand Shigefusa finish variations



## drawman623 (Oct 4, 2014)

Seeing the visual contrast between black Kurouichi finish and damascus Kitaeji or smooth Kasumi is obvious. What is unclear to me are the performance differences inherent to these finishes or styles of forging. Is it the folding process and labor intensive polishing of the damascus cladding that drives the higher price? I've read that the hagane among all 3 is the same steel. I presume the geometry is also similar. I'm intent to make a purchase but want some idea of what I would gain or give up in choosing one over another beyond the obvious aesthetics. 

Please note I'm not asking which would be best for me, just some objective contrast between them from those with some experience. Thanks for sharing any comments

Comparison based upon any of these categories or another of your choosing would help me understand.
Cutting
Wedging
Patina (resistence or suceptability)
Sharpening (ease or edge retention)
Smell (reactivity)
Comfort (especially comparing spines and chines)
Durability (home use)


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## drawman623 (Oct 5, 2014)

Wow over 100 views and no replies. Either this noob is asking the question incorrectly or he is not alone in his confusion.
Is there a shig fan out there with knowledge to share? These beauties seem to move instantly when offered on B/S/T. :scratchhead:


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## Timthebeaver (Oct 5, 2014)

Hagane is the same

Kurouchi - cheapest, least labour intensive. Generally only available in smaller blades (petty, nakiri, santoku most common, although Maxim had a 210 gyuto made by Masayuki once, iirc)

Kitaeji is more labour intensive than Kasumi. Shigefusa claims the former is superior (particularly for single bevel knives).

But don't take my word for it:

http://hides-export.blogspot.nl/2011/06/q-with-iizuka-san.html

http://hides-export.blogspot.nl/2011/06/knives-i-recommend-part-1-shigefusa.html

Perhaps Maxim (JNS) will chime in if he sees this.


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## drawman623 (Oct 5, 2014)

Cheers Tim, thank you for the reply and links. 
I find the Kurouchi finish very attractive. I'll start with a medium Nakiri as I look for more information and member insight.


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## augerpro (Oct 5, 2014)

My understanding is the grind is not the same between the kurouchi version and the kasumi/kitaeji, but it might be similar enough where it counts (lower half of the blade).


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## marc4pt0 (Oct 5, 2014)

I'm one of the viewers that's also curious about the differences


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## daveb (Oct 5, 2014)

I can't offer a lot on differences but I've seen the subject come up before. 

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#safe=off&q=site:kitchenknifeforums.com+difference+in+kasumi


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## Von blewitt (Oct 5, 2014)

This is some info I was sent by an Australian retailer who sometimes carries Shigefusa's, it's an interesting read 


Shigefusa decided to leave the famous Iwasaki razor upon Iwasaki-san's suggestion to introduce to the users (mainly the pro chefs back then) that there is a much superior option to Honyaki for Yanagi knives, which is the Kitaeji. 

So their Kasumi yanagi is, in fact, not their intended product (that's why they don't go all out on Kasumi model's polishing, and don't engrave the mei either, only stamp, but that's more to keep the price affordable, not trying to slack or anything), but since there are many people who ask for them, they are complying. Until I started selling to the western world, I didn't even know Shigefusa made non-Kitaeji knives! So to me Shigefusa used to mean Kitaeji.

Honyaki was considered to be superior to the Kasumi knives for single bevel thinner knives' construction, because they don't warp (so thick ones like deba, or double bevel don't matter.) Kasumi yanagi, no matter how expensive (even Shigefusa or Heiji), will start to warp (usually after 3 to 5 years of production) due to the tension difference between the hagane and jigane, but as Honyaki is one piece, it doesn't warp. 

Altho it is extremely easy to fix this warp (a kindy can fix it...), because all you need to do is manually bend, blade overhanging from the table edge, not too many chefs know this, and some are too scared to do it even if they knew, so there was a demand for non warping yanagis, and hence Honyaki was introduced. (Note to Ivan: Do you play golf at all? If you do, do you know anything about lie angle adjustment of forged irons, which is done by manual bending? Fixing bent yanagi is as easy, well, its easier since you dont need any machine!) 

BUT honyakis are expensive, very fragile (if you drop it or bang it against the sink wall when washing, it could snap right in half even! If not, it's tempered too much, so the edge will not be as sharp nor long lasting), and difficult to grind, and cannot be used up all the way to the spine (you can use any knives as petty once the blade length goes shorter than 165mm, all you need to do is get a petty handle and re-attach. If you will use up a Shigefusa, Heiji or Tsukasa knife to such length, I will get the handle in and reform the blade shape to a perfect petty! That would be my honour), so Shigefusa upon his masters' suggestion, i.e. Iwasaki-san and Nagashima-san the sword smith (he is the one who instructed how to forge Tamahagane razors to Iwasaki-san, as well as instructing how to forge Katanas when Iwasaki-san obtained his national license since his father, Dr. Kousuke who was a Katana specialist at Tokyo Uni, has passed by then), he set out to introduce his Kitaeji knives, which doesn't warp. 


I've owned a number of shigs, both kasumi & kitaeji.
Fit and finish is always great, the polish on the kitaeji is at a whole other level, the hand engraved kanji on the single bevel kitaejis is a nice touch but doesn't affect performance. All have been very comfortable nicely rounded & polished spine & choils.

As far as cutting performance goes (for Gyuto) I have seen some variation within the same lines, the best performers for my preferences have been a Kitaeji Gyuto, and a western Kasumi. But others preferences may vary.

Wedging I've never had an issue, but really avoiding wedging comes down to maintenance by the owner, shigefusa do have a relatively thick spine, so if not properly thinned & maintained wedging will become a problem.

I have never had a problem with reactivity, and can't say I noticed a big difference between the two lines. Like any iron clad blade, if you wipe consistently you shouldn't have an issue.

Edge retention is pretty similar, kitaeji has slightly better than the Kasumi, it's not the best, but I have pretty high standards for edge retention ( I've been spoiled by makers like Devin, Bill Burke & Marko)


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## drawman623 (Oct 6, 2014)

Thanks Dave for the contribution. Nobody wants to see too much redundancy in thread topics. I looked back but missed that one.

Thank you Von for the thorough information. I'm intent to buy a kurouchi but still unsure if the spine and chine are rounded like the other Shigefusa offerings. Perhaps Brandon is right that upper grind is different with these lower cost blades. As for the kitaeji vs kasumi comparison, it seems that all sources agree there is a qualitative difference (beyond the aesthetic) to promise an uptic in knife performance with the kitaeji. Hand engraved kanji, superior resistence to crooking, revised geometry and possibly hagane material too. I'm still reading and seeking good information, but I have what I need to say the added expense is not about vanity but the promise of performance and value.

When I feel more competent with the opinions and literature coming from other forum members and I have compared the 3 styles first hand, I'll post something that brings all facts together for the next person in need of better understanding. Thanks all for bringing your experience to light.


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## milesonend (Oct 11, 2014)

thanks huw very informative


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## brainsausage (Oct 11, 2014)

drawman623 said:


> Thanks Dave for the contribution. Nobody wants to see too much redundancy in thread topics. I looked back but missed that one.
> 
> Thank you Von for the thorough information. I'm intent to buy a kurouchi but still unsure if the spine and chine are rounded like the other Shigefusa offerings. Perhaps Brandon is right that upper grind is different with these lower cost blades. As for the kitaeji vs kasumi comparison, it seems that all sources agree there is a qualitative difference (beyond the aesthetic) to promise an uptic in knife performance with the kitaeji. Hand engraved kanji, superior resistence to crooking, revised geometry and possibly hagane material too. I'm still reading and seeking good information, but I have what I need to say the added expense is not about vanity but the promise of performance and value.
> 
> When I feel more competent with the opinions and literature coming from other forum members and I have compared the 3 styles first hand, I'll post something that brings all facts together for the next person in need of better understanding. Thanks all for bringing your experience to light.



I owned a single bevel kurouchi petty, and the F/F was every bit as good as on my kasumi gyuto.


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## chinacats (Oct 11, 2014)

brainsausage said:


> I owned a single bevel kurouchi petty, and the F/F was every bit as good as on my kasumi gyuto.



My experience matches this--kurouchi santoku and a couple of kasumi gyutos. Would love to try kitaeji, but the kasumi is perfect to me; for the cost of the kitaeji I would just buy another custom.


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## drawman623 (Oct 11, 2014)

Thanks brainsausage and chinacats. I've ordered 2 Shig Nakiri knives. 1 Kurouchi finish and the other Kitaeji. This will be a fun comparison. I'll post pics and dimensions in an effort to share a close comparison when I have them.


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## brainsausage (Oct 11, 2014)

drawman623 said:


> Thanks brainsausage and chinacats. I've ordered 2 Shig Nakiri knives. 1 Kurouchi finish and the other Kitaeji. This will be a fun comparison. I'll post pics and dimensions in an effort to share a close comparison when I have them.



Well played sir, well played indeed...


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## Mute-on (Oct 11, 2014)

drawman623 said:


> Thanks brainsausage and chinacats. I've ordered 2 Shig Nakiri knives. 1 Kurouchi finish and the other Kitaeji. This will be a fun comparison. I'll post pics and dimensions in an effort to share a close comparison when I have them.



Did the same. Only problem is to stop admiring the Kitaeji long enough to actually use it. A real work of art that is mesmerising 

Congratulations:thumbsup:

Welcome to the world of Shig Kitaeji! Get comfy. You'll be here a while .... Bwahahaha:wink:


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## drawman623 (Oct 19, 2014)

I got a package this week! Here is some close comparison information between kurouchi and kitaji knives by Shigefusa





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Packaging is identical between the knives. In this case, both are nakiri 7"


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## glestain (Oct 19, 2014)

More pictures!


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## drawman623 (Oct 19, 2014)

The signatures appear engraved rather than stamped.
Kurouchi



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Damascus



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## chinacats (Oct 19, 2014)

drawman623 said:


> The signatures appear engraved rather than stamped.
> Damascus
> 
> 
> ...



:bigeek:


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## drawman623 (Oct 19, 2014)

Both choils are equally ground. They are well rounded. The kurouchi black finish seems sufficiently course to give the blade a less finished feeling. The kitaeji is oh so smooth by comparison. Both knives at the point of the mocha where the knife meets the collar, there is evidence of hand polishing and sealing to keep contaminants out of the handle. The sealer shows clearly against the matte kurouchi finish. Neither knife shows significant difference but the photos will do the talking.

Kurouchi



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Kitaeji



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Kurouchi



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Kitaeji



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## drawman623 (Oct 19, 2014)

More choil images

Kurouchi



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Kitaeji



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## drawman623 (Oct 19, 2014)

I expected some variation in proportion and thus weight. Hand made processes by their nature do not yield identical results. I didn't expect to see this much variation though. Note the difference in length with the heel sitting further away from the handle on the Kitaeji knife. I found this proportion more conducive to comfortable grip. I cannot say, however, that either length is typical or even deliberate to one style over the other. That is the nature of comparison between single data points...I speak only for these two examples and not for Shigefusa knives overall.

Kurouchi (ounces)



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Handles flush to the cutting board



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Kitaeji



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## drawman623 (Oct 19, 2014)

The handles are exact and the fit and finish on the collars is similar. The Kurouchi finish knife has a lightly smoother transition at the collar where the slightest ridge can be felt on the Kitaeji. To note any difference here is nit picking. The bone collars show some nice modeling in their grain. The ho wood is well sanded and the D shape is comfortable. I'll close for now with photos of what I would call similar balance points. Again, the photos may tell you more than I can. Pardon the knife callus

Kurouchi



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Kitaeji



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## drawman623 (Oct 19, 2014)

I cant quit without a closeup of the Damascus surface. The kitaeji is truly beautiful with muted tones of Damascus because they are so well polished.




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## Bill13 (Oct 20, 2014)

Very informative, thanks for sharing!!


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## brainsausage (Oct 20, 2014)

Great write up. Thanks for taking the time to do this. Very informative.


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## chinacats (Oct 20, 2014)

Awesome, hope you will follow up with a performance review.
Cheers


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## XooMG (Oct 20, 2014)

Do you have a straight edge that you can lay on the side from edge to spine? I'd like to see if there's any funky geometry stuff (hollows, etc) going on in the hira (flat).


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## drawman623 (Oct 20, 2014)

Thanks for following the thread folks. There is definitely more to come!

Chinacats, I will put together a thorough review that that will be some time down the road. I don't feel sufficiently accomplished in my knife skills to properly note knife performance subtleties. The same is true of edge retention and sharpening. These reviews will come from me in time...but hopefully not before its time.

XooMG, I will definitely take photos by a straight edge for you. Discussion of geometry is next. Now I'm working the OT to pay for the addiction! Hopefull more to follow tonight.


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## Mute-on (Oct 20, 2014)

A really excellent thread. Thoughtful and well presented. I have the same Shigs so I'm very interested in your detailed thoughts. Looking forward to future instalments. 

Cheers,

J :thumbsup:


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## Ruso (Oct 20, 2014)

Intresting. Nice pics and comparison.
I have Kasumi Gyuto and its looks similar to Kitaeji in terms of F&F


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## drawman623 (Oct 20, 2014)

Thanks Ruso for adding to the information. Here are a few more comparison pics. Clearly overall length is different as well as height where the blade meets the collar.




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## drawman623 (Oct 20, 2014)

duplicate post


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## drawman623 (Oct 20, 2014)

As far as edge geometry goes, they appear quite similar to my eye. The polish is magnificent and truly mirrored at the edge. I can understand the reluctance some have to using something so lovely. With the signs of use and development of patina, this impressive finish to the knife will lose some luster. I think it's past time to learn some of the finer points of stropping! That said, the blade road is difficult to compare. The kurouchi blade shows magnificent contrast between flat black and polished jigane leading to the mirrored hagane. With the Kitaeji finish, it is like the entire blade is polished so the road does not stand out visually. The taper of the road is gentle enough that I cant really say much about similarity. Maybe the pictures will show others something I have missed.




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## mark76 (Oct 21, 2014)

Thanks for those choil shots. But would it be possible to make shots of the entire choil, straight from the handle into the blade? That way we could see the cross-sectional profile, how thin it is behind the edge, etc. I am particularly interested of gyuto choil shots, since I have a good frame of reference to compare them to.

Thanks!


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## apathetic (Oct 21, 2014)

Really enjoying this thread, thanks!


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## drawman623 (Oct 22, 2014)

mark76 said:


> Thanks for those choil shots. But would it be possible to make shots of the entire choil, straight from the handle into the blade? That way we could see the cross-sectional profile, how thin it is behind the edge, etc. I am particularly interested of gyuto choil shots, since I have a good frame of reference to compare them to.
> 
> Thanks!



Here are a few better geometry shots. 
Mark76: I'll PM some shots of my Takeda 240 Gyuto and Hinoura 210 Gyuto showing the entire choil. Thanks for your post

Kurouchi Full Choil



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Kitaeji



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## drawman623 (Oct 22, 2014)

Here is some visual info on upper geometry. Both knives seem a bit thick at the distal end compared to other makers. They both seem quite close to one another. The Kitaeji spine, like its choil is beautifully rounded and comfortable. The Kurouchi spine is well rounded too. The difference is in how the polished Kitaeji finish feels. It has a smoothness that supports the grind to become especially comfortable.




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## drawman623 (Oct 22, 2014)

The spine Profile on each appears consistent and straight.
I braced each handle on the cutting board edge.
Each spine starts even with a straight edge (white paper)




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## drawman623 (Oct 22, 2014)

Here are some blade profile shots. Again the handle was braced to the board edge and the blade starts even with the straight edge at the heel.




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## drawman623 (Oct 22, 2014)

The last profile shots have both knives resting on their edge. After looking at this I no longer assume that the knife design is what prevents accordion cuts. Good cutting is certainly helped or hindered by edge profile, but even the finest knives will require a correct motion...and as one maker's profile differs from another, a cook must adjust. I understand this intimately with the feel of my various pool cues but I never gave it deep thought with knives. This is why I remind all that I'm not writing a review here. Objective comparison, I'm hoping, will offer value for both experts and newbies alike.

From this vantage point, I see a little more belly in the Kurouchi edge profile. Too bad I don't have multiple examples to consider whether this variation is a function of knife finish or hand workmanship.




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## drawman623 (Oct 22, 2014)

Thanks again to all who followed this comparison thread. Please post questions or send a PM if you want to know more or if I've missed an opportunity to show an important difference.

I'll post something about their cutting performance and which I prefer based on value vs performance in the review section when I feel more confident doing so.

For now, my fears about owning a low cost Shigefusa Kurouchi style knife are gone. My fears that spending more than twice as much for Kitaeji finish are also gone...at least from the standpoint of getting additional work and beauty for my investment. Whether or not I can afford such knives over the many wonderful alternatives out there is still a raging debate...the facial discomfort of my "Shig permagrin" is becoming an issue!


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## mark76 (Oct 22, 2014)

Thanks Drawman! Great pics and great posts!


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## Soccerman (Oct 25, 2014)

Thank you for the very detailed pictures, it helps a lot to see the finish difference of shigs.


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## TheDispossessed (Dec 24, 2014)

This place is my church, I just love reading a post like this. Thanks everyone!


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## drawman623 (Dec 26, 2014)

Here are pics of a single bevel kitaeji


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## Bigbadwolfen (Feb 3, 2015)

Would you mind posting a link to your review here when it's finished?  awesome info, thanks a lot!


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## Bill13 (Feb 3, 2015)

Wow, just wow!! Love the close up!


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## Castalia (Apr 7, 2015)

Great posts. Thanks for all the pics. I am a Shig Kasumi owner and enjoy it immensely. 

We are wading into some complex territory with selecting just the right knife, Harry Potter and his wand came to mind:

"After magical education, a person seeking to become a wandmaker must become the apprentice of a skilled wandmaker. From there, they may undergo the study of wandlore. There is also a possibility that there are gatherings where wandlore lessons are taught. Even so, it is clear that wandlore must be understood clearly in order to become a skilled wandmaker. "

"Mr Ollivander revealed to Harry Potter in 1998 that wandlore was "complex and mysterious"; even the most skilled did not fully comprehend it. Ollivander himself confessed that he did not fully understand Priori Incantatem, a reaction between two wands with cores from the same source, or why Harry's wand destroyed the wand of Lucius Malfoy when Harry faced Lord Voldemort during the Battle of the Seven Potters."

"Wands choose the wizard or witch in a way that is neither random, nor serendipitous. There is much ancient mythology and botanical knowledge regarding the powers and natures of wood and other natural elements. "



How's that for an extended metaphor


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## TheDispossessed (Apr 7, 2015)

+1 for HP reference


Castalia said:


> Great posts. Thanks for all the pics. I am a Shig Kasumi owner and enjoy it immensely.
> 
> We are wading into some complex territory with selecting just the right knife, Harry Potter and his wand came to mind:
> 
> ...


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## ecrphoto (May 18, 2017)

Well - it's a mighty old thread - but did the performance review ever surface? Which won in the end?


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