# Say what you want about Edgepro, this kicks butt



## rick_english (Sep 13, 2016)

[video=youtube;k3SbEWFSA8s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3SbEWFSA8s[/video]


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## hambone.johnson (Sep 14, 2016)

rick_english said:


> [video=youtube;k3SbEWFSA8s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3SbEWFSA8s[/video]



I saw that about 4 days ago. It's something else. Edge pro on steroids. 

I was an edge pro user for like 10 years and have been a convert to freehand and more recently j-nats for the last 5. Would rather put the $ into a jnat than that machine. 

Cool none the less


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## gic (Sep 14, 2016)

Has somebody actually bought one of these and used it?


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## SliceNDice (Sep 14, 2016)

I've listened to contradicting theories on freehand vs assisted sharpening. The argument is that assisted lasts longer because there are fewer inconsistencies on the cutting edge, and you can see that under a microscope, but freehand argument is that those same inconsistences is what makes the cutting edge last longer due to the fact that those inconsistencies gives the edge a toothiness which can still cut once the blade gets dull, however, as for an assisted sharpened blade, once it's dull it's dull pretty consistently lol.


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## daveb (Sep 14, 2016)

Gizmos are to sharpening

what this View attachment 32994
is to dicing.:cool2:


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## SliceNDice (Sep 14, 2016)

lus1:



daveb said:


> Gizmos are to sharpening
> 
> what this View attachment 32994
> is to dicing.:cool2:


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## ThEoRy (Sep 14, 2016)

SliceNDice said:


> I've listened to contradicting theories on freehand vs assisted sharpening. The argument is that assisted lasts longer because there are fewer inconsistencies on the cutting edge, and you can see that under a microscope, but freehand argument is that those same inconsistences is what makes the cutting edge last longer due to the fact that those inconsistencies gives the edge a toothiness which can still cut once the blade gets dull, however, as for an assisted sharpened blade, once it's dull it's dull pretty consistently lol.



There's more to it than that. Gizmos don't compensate for the sweep in the belly on a knife. While freehand you simply raise the handle up a bit while sharpening this area, a gizmo can not do this. This creates an uneven bevel towards the tip. The bevel gets wider and the edge gets thinner making it fragile. 

Also gizmos are based on the idea that you want edge consistency or angle repeatability. You do not want this. It will make your knives become wedges over time. You want to sharpen behind the edge of your last bevel from the shoulder down to the edge. This way you thin the knife as you go retaining it's geometry.

In addition you have to consider blade asymmetry. What you do on one side, you do not want to repeat on the other. A simple click up on the wrist while sharpening the backside of a double bevel knife is impossible on a gizmo. You would have to adjust the angle every time you flip the knife. That would be a big hassle.

Finally, single bevel knives. Simply impossible on a gizmo. You just can't do it. There's no way around it.


That being said it's a very well made machine for what it is. A gizmo.


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## Marek07 (Sep 15, 2016)

lus1: What ThEoRy said!

It looks really well thought out and engineered - better than the Edge Pro - but ultimately just a gizmo with its inherent flaws. 20 years ago I might have been tempted but now I'd rather spend the money on my first Jnat while I keep improving my skills on stones in general.


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## Drosophil (Sep 15, 2016)

So Rube Goldberg is alive, well and living in Russia.


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## Matus (Sep 15, 2016)

On top what ThEoRy said - as cool as this one looks, it will fail the user with small & narrow blades as it will not be able to go down much under 20 deg. per side as the jaw will get in the way. I have a simpler jig (from KME). I would also say that IMO these kind of devices are mainly intended for outdoor knives (in particular given today's 'super steels' which are best tackled with diamonds anyhow) where you in general sharpen under larger angles and slight change in the angle does not influence the knife performance all that much.


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## skewed (Sep 15, 2016)

The 'Profile' is a really neat piece of engineering. Laziness knows no bounds. It amazes me how a fairly simple skill that was ubiquitous 50-60 years ago has nearly vanished from common knowledge and has give rise to the invention of such bizarre contraptions such as this. I guess if it work for you then huzzah!


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## KeithA (Sep 15, 2016)

I subscribe to and love Wranglerstar. To me, he's the man when it comes to things like "real" hoes and axes. Through him, I've learned things like how to sharpen my gardening tools with a mill bastard file. 

That said, he's hardly the authority on the likes of sharpening Japanese knives. For that, I will follow the sage advice I find on this site. For instance, on another video, he wants to see how sharp he can make a butter knife in a few minutes. He does make it sharper in a short amount of time filing off all of the serrations on the previously serrated knife. Can't remember all the grits on the stones he's using, but I think it's like 5 or 6 stones, starting (from recall again) with a 100 and working up to 1000.

I would hate to take off that much steel from my knives in such a short period of time.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 16, 2016)

Never used those gizmos, but would definitely try on small hunting knives if i didn't have to pay for one. I also wouldn't put a nice japanese knife through one of those due to the amount of extra steel it seems to take. Besides, if you have an abrading surface that is attached at a fixed angle to something that pivots on a fixed point, the contact point between the abrading surface and the edge should assume a semi-circular path (instead of the original edge profile). For small knives, it might work as there's not much room for variance, but for big blades, it would visibly change the edge profile.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 16, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> There's more to it than that. Gizmos don't compensate for the sweep in the belly on a knife. While freehand you simply raise the handle up a bit while sharpening this area, a gizmo can not do this. This creates an uneven bevel towards the tip. The bevel gets wider and the edge gets thinner making it fragile.
> 
> Also gizmos are based on the idea that you want edge consistency or angle repeatability. You do not want this. It will make your knives become wedges over time. You want to sharpen behind the edge of your last bevel from the shoulder down to the edge. This way you thin the knife as you go retaining it's geometry.
> 
> ...



This is the best explanation I've heard. Clearly someone with a lot of sharpening experience.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Sep 17, 2016)

One COULD probably build that kind of gadget using angle and position sensors, strong servos and state tracking.... but that would be one step away from teaching a robot to free hand sharpen


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## OneS (Sep 17, 2016)

The inability to thin a knife was what sounded the death knell for my Edge Pro. I also think that the ability to use a wider variety of stones, especially on my carbon knives, gives me better results.


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## Marek07 (Sep 17, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> One COULD probably build that kind of gadget using angle and position sensors, strong servos and state tracking.... but that would be one step away from teaching a robot to free hand sharpen



Hmmm... a robot able to free hand sharpen? Now that's something I could go for. 

Although I have come to love sharpening on water stones, recent nerve conduction studies confirm that I have moderate-severe carpal tunnel syndrome. My doctor thinks I should give up the stones and can't understand my reluctance to do so.

Build a better mousetrap and...


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## rick alen (Sep 18, 2016)

I designed what could be called a "Wicked Edge on Steroids." Sits about 2' tall, can put a 3deg/side edge on a gyuto in the double sided/action clamp, and any angle with the one-sided arrangement. Minimal angle variation from one end of blade to the other. And of course you can use a really long strop on it. Far better and less costly to make compared to the Rusky, most of it can actually be built from wood with minimal tools. When the low-cost machine shops I know slow down a bit I'll likely get parts made for several units. Just a fun thing, don't think it will be a great commercial success. But then again I think of the Misen and Bulat boys....


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## Matus (Sep 18, 2016)

Rick, do not be shy and post a few photos - we are curios


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## rick alen (Sep 18, 2016)

What, and have the Misen/Bulat boys steel my idea?!!! (please don't be lame by mentioning a missing "a")

It's really not that ingenious. Imagine a super-sized wicked edge that was designed by someone who actually has some engineering experience. For starters, when the WE guys finally went to proper heim joints they weren't the best and could have done better for less, and they continue to make the clamp from crap aluminum when at the same cost they could have also done much better.


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## chinacats (Sep 18, 2016)

I like a wet rock and towel...


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## jessf (Sep 22, 2016)

I'm surprised the Wranglestar guy, with all his blade related videos, isn't proficient with sharpening without a device.


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## joshsy81 (Sep 22, 2016)

chinacats said:


> I like a wet rock and towel...



+1


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## CutFingers (Sep 25, 2016)

I think it's a great concept and device...but the stones are absurdly priced compared to full size.


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## bennyprofane (Sep 27, 2016)

This is also fun :biggrin:

https://youtu.be/6B0KdyyuFqE?t=21m22s


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## KeithA (Sep 27, 2016)

Doesn't seem to be applying enough pressure on the edge to truly be doing much of anything.


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## bennyprofane (Sep 29, 2016)

The user sharpchef is testing it at the moment and he says that its on the contrary and you can control pressure extremely precisely and that you can get incredible results.


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## Sharpchef (Sep 29, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> The user sharpchef is testing it at the moment and he says that its on the contrary and you can control pressure extremely precisely and that you can get incredible results.



I am very impressed of this system..... The one in the Vid from bennyprofane!. The other thing is just a better made Edge Pro with all pros and cons......

This gives you the opportunity to do a full range benchstone honing action nearly without any disadvantage in movement etc. But you have 100% angle control, and can if you like control pressure as well, with a spring attached to the rod.

I have tested in pro environment with high tungsten alloy steel knife and you can reach up to 3 times more edge retention (compared to an usefull finish with maybe 5k Chosera) with edges at HHT 4-5 (cooked about 350 meals with this knife and it was still able to cut tomato skin). With free hand sharpening (i got about 15 years of pro kitchen sharpening knowledge) on this level of sharpness the knife gets dull within a few meals.

Greets Sebastian.


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## zetieum (Sep 29, 2016)

Seb: Yeah, this system look quite nice. Moreover, you can use the stones that you want, including Jnat. The question is how can you get it ?


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## KeithA (Sep 29, 2016)

Wow. I stand corrected.


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## malexthekid (Sep 29, 2016)

Does the second system control the angle for you? Or does it just take over from your second hand and make it more stable?


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## bennyprofane (Sep 30, 2016)

It controls the angle, that is why you get so consistent results.


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## Sharpchef (Sep 30, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> It controls the angle, that is why you get so consistent results.



And you can control pressure, this is the main point. Experienced sharpeners can hold exact angle with edge pro too, but there is too much pressure on the blade (i measured about 600g on 1 inch of the spine, that is too much!

With the big Skorpion system you can sharpen nearly anything, here i sharpen an axe using the Apex like option with Apex Chosera Stones......
Now it is scary sharp, ready for shaving my face :wink:

















I think this would not be possible with any other sharpening system.....

Greets Sebastian.


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## zetieum (Sep 30, 2016)

Sebastian: can you tell us more about the other system: the one on the video, where the knife is hold with a magnet above the stones. That look to me the most interesting thing. On this one can you confirm that:
- the system holds the angle for you,
- you can use what ever stone you want

finally: where did you get ti ?


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## bennyprofane (Sep 30, 2016)

Its the same system but it has different modes: the edge pro mode and the one where you use regular large size stones. I am also curious about this system so today I ordered one. The man who makes them is a retired engineer from Ukraine. There is only email contact and I had to use google translate to talk to him in Ukrainian. 

Here is a picture of his simple system:






It will be a little Moore than this, the spring for the pressure control is not in the picture. its not a must but can give even better results.

Also, you dont have to use the magnet to attach the knife but can use the clamp.


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## Sharpchef (Oct 1, 2016)

zetieum said:


> Sebastian: can you tell us more about the other system: the one on the video, where the knife is hold with a magnet above the stones. That look to me the most interesting thing. On this one can you confirm that:
> - the system holds the angle for you,
> - you can use what ever stone you want
> 
> finally: where did you get ti ?








I mostly use this setup, with a spring that controls the sharpening pressure, you have to pull down the blade to whatever stone you want, but notice, the stone have to have the correct angle, and be dead flat.

With the magnetic solution there is a in build magnet i think that hold the pressure to the lowest possible..... As i sharpen only big knives i like the clamp with spring control better.

Purchasing this system is quite tricky, and i recommend someone for translation (ukrainian language!) as google translater is just rubbish.....:scared4:

Greets Sebastian.


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## zetieum (Oct 1, 2016)

Just to understand clearly: When you say you have make the stones at the correct angle, you mean absolutely flat (0° )? For synthetic, sounds easy, for natural, more tricky. 
You do not have to change anything between the stones? i.e., if you take a stones that is thicker or smaller, you do not have to set again the angle do not you, right?


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## bennyprofane (Oct 1, 2016)

I just got the answers:

They should be relatively flat but not 0°, similar to free hand sharpening.

You do not have to set the angle again if stones vary in thickness.


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## chinacats (Oct 1, 2016)

From the last picture it looks as if the blade holder would scrape the store of the knife was held at an aggressive angle? Knife in the picture looks to be set at a high angle...


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## bennyprofane (Oct 2, 2016)

From what I've heard you can do very small angles but sharpchef might go for a bigger angle since he wants to achieve a very long lasting edge. He has posted in the German forum that he's comparing different angles and how long they last.


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## Sharpchef (Oct 2, 2016)

chinacats said:


> From the last picture it looks as if the blade holder would scrape the store of the knife was held at an aggressive angle? Knife in the picture looks to be set at a high angle...







With this function you can go down to about 10 degrees...... with a Blade with of about 5cm.




With the magnet solution you can go down to 0 degree.




The pics also show`s what i mean with flat stones.

Sorry the picture host Programm rolled my pics..... Just turn around your monitor :wink:

Greets Sebastian.


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## zetieum (Oct 2, 2016)

Hum.. the more I read about this, the more it looks like I am getting one when I am back from vacation.


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## Sharpchef (Oct 2, 2016)

Here is a short vid about the benchstone sharpening function:

Even with this heavy curved knife it is no problem at all, just a quick touchup using Chosera 5k and Gokumyo 20k for deburring.

[video=youtube;HOPFg-xW29M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOPFg-xW29M"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOPFg-xW29M[/video]

Greets Sebastian.


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## bennyprofane (Oct 2, 2016)

Thank you! As you've note in the German thread, you've put the angle too large in this video and with the Magnet, you can go down to zero degree angle.


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## Sharpchef (Oct 2, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Thank you! As you've note in the German thread, you've put the angle too large in this video and with the Magnet, you can go down to zero degree angle.



Yeah i unfortunately used the Angle guide the wrong way....... Endet up with an 20 Degree microbevel, but i tested HHT was at about 4 and i killed 2 chicken and boned a lamp shoulder, still razor sharp....... (very good steel on this knife Böhler TWR)

Greets Sebastian.


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## chinacats (Oct 2, 2016)

My only suggestion at this point is that you could learn freehand in the time it takes to order/get one delivered...I still just don't get it...


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## rick alen (Oct 2, 2016)

To put things in perspective for Chinacats comment, to get a 3deg angle on a gyuto of about 50mm height the jaws would need to be 0.50mm thick at the tips, and inserted only about 6mm past the spine, if I remember my layouts correctly. So with those jaws in the photo and that knife I think a 10deg angle would be achievable, and possibly a bit lower even.

Though I do, of course have to wonder at the 100 fold edge retention improvement aluded to earlier.


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## Sharpchef (Oct 2, 2016)

chinacats said:


> My only suggestion at this point is that you could learn freehand in the time it takes to order/get one delivered...I still just don't get it...



I do freehand for about 15 years now in pro environment, i got tons of stones and very good at handsharpening, but this will get the last few % out of your knives........ I could not believe, and i don`t want to stop freehand honing because of this, but this is simply the solution for anybody with no patience and talent to learn freehand honing. The outcome is so excelent it seems to be not true at all.

The edge retention on high tungsten alloy steels is up to 3 times better with really sharp knives...... With C steels like shirogami and the better european ones i don`t testet through.


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## rick alen (Oct 2, 2016)

As someone who has given the subject of guided sharpening some thought, here are my thoughts at this time.

I believe the left-right-left-right sharpening ablilty and finer control of a Wicked-Edge shuttle-type of setup, of suitable scaled up proportions, would yield better results, and do it faster. And if you use it just for light rebeveling and finishing, then certainly all you need are diamond loaded strops. I haven't tested yet but I have a feeling there are substrates that will load and hold 300 grit diamond well. Ideally I feel that here you want to get rid of stones altogether. And the waste of spraying your medium on, there must be a way around that.

But I will say that the rig Sharpchef is demonstrating is a nice piece of design work. And it does of course contain all the flotsam and jetsam nicely, as any hand sharpening setup would.


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## Karnstein (Oct 2, 2016)

chinacats said:


> My only suggestion at this point is that you could learn freehand in the time it takes to order/get one delivered...I still just don't get it...



Maybe... but that doesn't account for the scenario sharpchef is talking about. He's a pro and he knows how to sharpen freehand on stones. So let's assume, that using the right steels (high tungsten ones as he said) and getting a constant angle all across the bevel from that sharpening system, results in a edge retention that outperforms significantly the edge he would get with simple free-hand sharpening. Now, if that increased edge retention allows him to either cut down on the amount of touch-ups he has to do, or go through the whole day without any, it will lead to a better work flow and for some people like him would make it worth the investment. Esp. if simply bringing along a ton of spare knives or doing touch ups isn't feasible. 

On the other hand, if you won't get that kind of prolonged edge retention with clean carbon steels like shirogami or SC125/SC145 and prefer those kind of steels, esp. in a home environment, it most likely may not be worth it to go through the hassle of ordering one. Not to mention the price...

Same may hold true for a home cook, who doesn't want to get that increased edge retention, because he likes free hand sharpening or thinks he needs the practice more that the increased edge retention. Esp. if he owns enough good knifes that he can easily switch over to another one and do the sharpening/touch up on another day...

Unless you suffer from not getting rid of not being able to keep a more or less consistent angle on the stones and that's bothering you...


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## rick alen (Oct 2, 2016)

I do believe that "proper" sharpening jigs, that is those optimally designed to work with the particular toll being sharpened, do produce better results, and I do believe ALL competition cutters (not kitchen related of course) use them, and for that reason.


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## gic (Oct 2, 2016)

Amusingly enough I spoke to a friend who has a PHD in robotics with a specialization in control systems. I showed him how I sharpen on stones. After watching me he said it would be relatively 
trivial to program a standard medium end industrial grade robotic arm so that it could sharpen perfectly on stones - and do it much better than any human could ever do. Of course, the kind of robotic arms you would need cost >10k and then the programming and stuff needed to get it to work would require a pretty high level knowledge of robotics and sharpening but it is "trivial" in the sense there is no needed research to do - it's all straightforward engineering he thought. 

This makes me wonder if they will eventually do this in Japan since skilled sharpeners are growing older. (Also most of the robotic arms he mentioned are actually made in Japan.)


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## Benuser (Oct 2, 2016)

I have seen a few knives sharpened with jig systems. Very nice looking edges, poor cutters. All with sharp shoulders, fat behind the edge. And ignoring all about geometry. After a few of those sharpenings, expect heavy wedging and steering.


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## gic (Oct 2, 2016)

it is pretty clear to me that if I combine my edge pro with using stones to reduce the shoulder and thin behind the edge, I can get a sharper edge then I can with stones alone. There are obvious synergies to using both a jig and stones if you understand both.

Except for the fact I find stones fun to use so I don't do this that often!


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## malexthekid (Oct 2, 2016)

Benuser said:


> I have seen a few knives sharpened with jig systems. Very nice looking edges, poor cutters. All with sharp shoulders, fat behind the edge. And ignoring all about geometry. After a few of those sharpenings, expect heavy wedging and steering.



This is what i think seeing that. Ultimately it still has the same issues as sn edge pro. Though maybe reduced. If the blade is dead flat it might be ok but as soon as some curve is added to the profile you are out. 

And don't even think about convexing or a hamaguri edge


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## rick alen (Oct 2, 2016)

Of course a jig can also be used to thin with, though no essential reason this should not be done freehand. And if the jig user doesn't bother to thin, well that is not the jig's fault.

Of course you can use a robot to sharpen, they use them for far more intricate operations than that, even here in knifemaking as you can see in promo vids by the German manufacturers. But for sharpening a completely purpose-built robot would do no better than a human with a good jig, and actually I would bet on the latter for the best job.


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## zetieum (Oct 2, 2016)

There is something I do not get: we buy hand made knives, that are, like every hand-made staff not perfect. Now what is the point of having a robot sharpening them??
Concerning the system presented here, it is the best I have seen.


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## bennyprofane (Oct 2, 2016)

Yes, freehand sharpening on the stones is too big of a joy to leave it to the robots, just like driving  That said Im still curious to try out this system even though I will not give up freehand.


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## Benuser (Oct 2, 2016)

Have you seen recent Wüsthof knives, supposedly robot sharpened?? Sharp shoulders, fat behind the edge, no proper deburring.


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## malexthekid (Oct 2, 2016)

The issue with jigs isnt that they can't thin, it is the hassle of having to make continuous adjustments to do such things.

Its interesting and if i wasn't happy with my freehand i would be looking at something like this.

In regards to better edge retention i still struggle to see how a more precise edge will achieve that, if anything I would think it would result in more fragile edge.

But that is just my musing.


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## gic (Oct 2, 2016)

Wusthof may have decided to make that crappy profile, their profiles are often weird, no?

Not sure why they weren't deburred properly though ...

But Robot sharpeners excellence depend on the excellence of the programming obviously. But i was thinking they will become necessary for "semi-mass produced" knives coming from Japan. The people at Tojiro, Misono and Masahiro may decide that, given the shortage of workman, robots for final sharpening is the way to go. For all I know they already have.


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## Benuser (Oct 2, 2016)

Are you sure it's about their profile, or the geometry?


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## gic (Oct 2, 2016)

Wusthof may have decided to make that crappy geometry?


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## malexthekid (Oct 2, 2016)

Robots could definitely work, the key there is repeatability. Aka mass number of knives with same profile and geometry.

Or some mad skills and hardware to allow 3d scanning of knife and developing the right sharpening regime.


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## Benuser (Oct 2, 2016)

Wüsthof calls it PEtec, just a basic V-edge. Before, edge was done by hand and nicely convexed. Now, these robot edges are at some 13 degree per side, which that kind of steel can hardly take -- and certainly not hold.


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## krx927 (Oct 3, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Yes, freehand sharpening on the stones is too big of a joy to leave it to the robots, just like driving



1+


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## Dave Martell (Oct 3, 2016)

Robots sharpening? I don't know about that.


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