# Pro opinions on home cooks



## ian (Feb 15, 2021)

My deep seated inferiority complex asked me to post the poll above, since it doesn’t have its own account. Please discuss.


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## LostHighway (Feb 15, 2021)

I'll be interested to see the results. I can say that in landscaping and landscaping gardening I have seen a few private gardens that are as good or often better than 99% of the pros could do. The caveat is that this is a single garden refined over years with good observational skills and a good eye. I would think that skilled home cooks working in narrow genre, say Italian cooking of a specific region, might have that more nailed down than most pros. Speed and knife skills almost certainly favor pros. Range and creativity probably favors *some* pros.


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## M1k3 (Feb 15, 2021)

Hard to generalize. I've had some of the best food from a home cook. And really horrible


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## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

My stepfather is most definitely not a pro, but his dishes would give a 2 star Michelin kitchen a fair challenge. Where he would lose is creativity. He starts with a recipe, then iterates it, taking notes each time and with each modification. Everything is measured JUST so. 5g of salt added here, try again. Remove 7g salt and add half a gram of saffron, try again. He eventually gets to his "definitive" version and it's always epic. But if you stuck him in a full kitchen without his recipes, he'd be lost. Even something he's made a hundred times, he verifies as he goes. Dumbo feather, FWIW.


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## tgfencer (Feb 15, 2021)

This proposition seems...vague. There are as many different kinds of pro cooks as there are home cooks. The guy in the taco truck and the guy in the Michelin star restaurant don't necessarily need the same tools or skill sets. Similarly, home cooks and pro cooks don't necessarily utilize the same skill sets or tools, but that doesn't make one instrinsically better or worse than the other, just different.

Ultimately, what makes someone a good cook isn't where they cook, it's how their food tastes. Judging a cook for anything else is largely irrelevant.


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## Lars (Feb 15, 2021)

While I'm continuously baffled that I haven't yet been banned for my rank amateur contributions to the "What's cooking"-thread, the pro cooks I have known and cooked for have been the most grateful dinner guests I have ever met. So maybe it's all good


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## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

Lars said:


> While I'm continuously baffled that I haven't yet been banned for my rank amateur contributions to the "What's cooking"-thread, the pro cooks I have known and cooked for have been the most grateful dinner guests I have ever met. So maybe it's all good



At least you contribute food - sometimes all I contribute is families of leek heads.

And yes, my experience is that, if you do a good job on what you are making, pros, _especially "_high-end" pros (michelin stars and such) are almost always perfectly gracious. A good friend of mine was second at a 2 star in Paris for a long while, and I don't know that I ever received more fervent compliments from anyone else over stuff I put on the table. 

I wouldn't want to serve something to Gordon Ramsey or anything, not that I don't think I can produce good enough results (I'm quite sure I can), but because I'm not one of his comis and there is no way I'd suffer his **** at my table. Maybe he'd be nice and gracious, but that's really not his style.


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## YumYumSauce (Feb 15, 2021)

I dont see anything wrong with the home cooks ability to create flavor. Its a different environment, pace, and mentality. I think resturants are easier to cook in that they usually have the space, time, equipment, access to ingredients and staff to make the work flow efficient. 

Cooking at home youre generally in a more relaxed environment, cooking at your own pace and can be distracted by life. You also have to do all the clean up yourself.

The mentallity is different too when certain standards are drilled into you. Sometimes I'll be cooking with others and get annoyed/antsy that they're taking their time getting things done, taking shortcuts, not wiping things down, etc. Then I feel like I need to pull my head out my ass and remind myself not to let it become "work" in a sense and enjoy the time spent. Ive also seen some goofballs in pro kitchens too so theres that.

What grinds my gears more are those "foodie yelp reviewer influcencer" types who post pics for the "gram" and think they know more about food cause they can afford nice places but can probably barely boil a potato


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## Lars (Feb 15, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I wouldn't want to serve something to Gordon Ramsey or anything, not that I don't think I can produce good enough results (I'm quite sure I can), but because I'm not one of his comis and there is no way I'd suffer his **** at my table. Maybe he'd be nice and gracious, but that's really not his style.


He better be gracious if he is being fed otherwise it would be very pleasurable to kick him out just like he likes to do his (paying) customers


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## M1k3 (Feb 15, 2021)

Lars said:


> While I'm continuously baffled that I haven't yet been banned for my rank amateur contributions to the "What's cooking"-thread, the pro cooks I have known and cooked for have been the most grateful dinner guests I have ever met. So maybe it's all good


We cook food all the time. It's nice to eat food we didn't have to cook. That said, I'll say we'll give a home cook a star to start off with, because of that reason.


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## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

YumYumSauce said:


> I dont see anything wrong with the home cooks ability to create flavor. Its a different environment, pace, and mentality. I think resturants are easier to cook in that they usually have the space, time, equipment, access to ingredients and staff to make the work flow efficient.
> 
> Cooking at home youre generally in a more relaxed environment, cooking at your own pace and can be distracted by life. You also have to do all the clean up yourself.
> 
> ...



This is very true. I'm a bit mental when cooking in my own kitchen. I work at my flow and rhythm and don't like being thrown out of it. At someone else's place, no worries, I'll offer help and isolate one task at a time. 

At my place, uh, no thanks. My girlfriend gets mad at me because I mostly don't like to cook with her. I have no issues if she's sitting there drinking a glass of wine whilst I compose my (probably poor and off-key) symphony. But having her do the work with me? Ugh. No thanks. Twice as much time spent, twice as much mess, someone always in my way. Plus - I like cutting stuff.  Better the ingredients than my girlfriend.


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## YumYumSauce (Feb 15, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> This is very true. I'm a bit mental when cooking in my own kitchen. I work at my flow and rhythm and don't like being thrown out of it. At someone else's place, no worries, I'll offer help and isolate one task at a time.
> 
> At my place, uh, no thanks. My girlfriend gets mad at me because I mostly don't like to cook with her. I have no issues if she's sitting there drinking a glass of wine whilst I compose my (probably poor and off-key) symphony. But having her do the work with me? Ugh. No thanks. Twice as much time spent, twice as much mess, someone always in my way. Plus - I like cutting stuff.  Better the ingredients than my girlfriend.



Lol. But dont get me wrong, I genearlly do enjoy having a helping hand in the kitchen. I like having em do some mundane tasks: pick the herbs, wash and peel veggies, wash dishes, etc . And it can be rewarding teaching them something too.


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## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

YumYumSauce said:


> Lol. But dont get me wrong, I genearlly do enjoy having a helping hand in the kitchen. I like having em do some mundane tasks: pick the herbs, wash and peel veggies, wash dishes, etc . And it can be rewarding teaching them something too.



That's fair, and I DO use my kids as comis and, well, slaves. I'll do a week where kid X prepares all the meals, with me just providing direction. They love it and so do I. If there is a lot of produce to prep, I'll do a prep session before and really let them live the line cook life. It helps in the sense that, for example, my daughter eats lunch with her friends on school days. And they can go to one of their houses and handle the entire meal prep. Her friends are _kind of_ capable of boiling water and dumping a packet of pasta into it. My kid? She can actually make a meal.


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## JaVa (Feb 15, 2021)

Just look at masterchef program. Tons of home cooks doing cool stuff.
I just minutes ago came from our neighbors for dinner. Lovely creamy sweet potato soup. Would've happily paid for it in a restaurant. And she's a very basic home cook.

One thing is that home cooks have less restrictions when making something. You have all the time in the world and don't have to worry about profit margins, portion sizes or how something can be made under pressure or maintaining a steady quality with every serving. That allows for possibilities that is difficult or even not possible in a pro kitchen.

So if you're into it and like to learn and try things anyone can be great. With just a little bit of technique and understanding how to combine flavors and textures and you are on your way.

And with the internet all that information is readily available for everyone. To become a good cook hasn't ever been easier if someone just is interested enough to research a little. 

And what comes to stupidly expensive knives. Everyone has the right to enjoy nice things. If it makes your cooking a more special moment, that's great.


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## The Edge (Feb 15, 2021)

The biggest difference for me between cooking professionally and being a home cook is consistency. In a restaurant, you have to replicate dishes over and over, giving customers what they came for (I'm generalizing here, as I know not every restaurant has a set menu). Being a home cook, I can improvise with every dish. I don't have to use recipes, but can vary every ingredient. There's usually more freedom at home, and more discipline in a pro kitchen. Maybe not always, but for the most part.


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## Chuckles (Feb 15, 2021)

I would qualify as a pro. I really don’t cook at work much and typically don’t enjoy it when I do. Actual hands on cooking has been transitioning into a hobby for me at home. One that I don’t get to do that often really. When I do get the kitchen to myself and can roll up my sleeves and do a project that I really want to make I very much enjoy being able to savor the performance of a fantastic cutting tool, regardless of volume. I get jealous of the forum members that contribute to the what’s cooking thread regularly. I wish I could devote that much time and energy into feeding the people that I really care about.


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## ian (Feb 15, 2021)

Chuckles said:


> I wish I could devote that much time and energy into feeding the people that I really care about.



“Why did you have to change the recipe? Why can’t you just make us simple food from a box that takes 20 minutes?” is my usual thank-you from the family.


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## orangehero (Feb 15, 2021)

I'd rather eat a meal prepared by my grandmother over sitting in any restaurant. Also she uses knives forged by my grandfather so they are pretty much priceless.


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## tostadas (Feb 15, 2021)

You guys are being so nice today. I cook at home. When I drop food on the floor, I pick it up and put it right back in the pan.


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## JaVa (Feb 15, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> We cook food all the time. It's nice to eat food we didn't have to cook. That said, I'll say we'll give a home cook a star to start off with, because of that reason.


True that!


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## JAKsQandBrew (Feb 15, 2021)

I might have a unique perspective on this as I am a "classically trained home cook". 
I went to culinary school as my semester abroad in college but never really worked professionally. I have lots of friends working professionally so I do get some perspective on that side as well.
Home cooks need to realize how very different it is working in a professional kitchen. It is probably as big a difference as a pick up game of basketball or football in the park vs. professional level sport. Very different things are going on though they fundamentally look the same.

From a knifework perspective, it is really about volume of experience for me. I probably dice/French/chop 100lbs of onions a year at home. Someone does that every other day in a professional kitchen.


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## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

ian said:


> “Why did you have to change the recipe? Why can’t you just make us simple food from a box that takes 20 minutes?” is my usual thank-you from the family.



I think things like this are why my ex and I got divorced. I would improvise something, she would love it and insist I make the exact same thing again. It wasn't remotely possible for me to do that. Ergo, divorce.

* Maybe there were other things...


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## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

tostadas said:


> You guys are being so nice today. I cook at home. When I drop food on the floor, I pick it up and put it right back in the pan.



The three second rule is real.


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## Byphy (Feb 15, 2021)

Comparing apples to oranges. Completely different settings.

If only basing on taste, many home cooks like my ma, can crush pro cooks.

But if a home cook thinks they can work in a pro kitchen because they make delicious food at home, they're in for a rude awakening.


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## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

The Edge said:


> The biggest difference for me between cooking professionally and being a home cook is consistency. In a restaurant, you have to replicate dishes over and over, giving customers what they came for (I'm generalizing here, as I know not every restaurant has a set menu). Being a home cook, I can improvise with every dish. I don't have to use recipes, but can vary every ingredient. There's usually more freedom at home, and more discipline in a pro kitchen. Maybe not always, but for the most part.



All of that I agree with completely - and I'll add one:

You aren't generally precisely limited in quantity in a pro setup. Obviously your boss/chef/banker/manager doesn't want waste, but when you are designing dishes certainly, or when you are making something off-book a bit, well, there's generally always more beef/fish/basil/shallots/potatoes/fettucine/whatever. At home, there probably isn't. So as much as you might want to try things, you do generally want to stay somewhat in your comfort zone.

I worked as a line cook when I was at university - that combined with half of my family's love for great, creative food led me to developing and enlarging that comfort zone. I'm not the best but I'm far from the worst and I definitely use my time in the kitchen for art and creativity in flavors. This is probably why I never really got into baking: it's strikes me as so much hard science, which I love with every fiber of my being OUTSIDE the kitchen, but not as much in it. 

Then even saying that crumbles into irony feta over the greek salad of the statements above: I did spend a number of years constantly using and trying modernist/molecular cuisine tools and techniques, and you can't get more empirically precisely scientific than that. Go figure: I'm inconsistent.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 15, 2021)

Chuckles said:


> I would qualify as a pro. I really don’t cook at work much and typically don’t enjoy it when I do. Actual hands on cooking has been transitioning into a hobby for me at home. One that I don’t get to do that often really. When I do get the kitchen to myself and can roll up my sleeves and do a project that I really want to make I very much enjoy being able to savor the performance of a fantastic cutting tool, regardless of volume. I get jealous of the forum members that contribute to the what’s cooking thread regularly. I wish I could devote that much time and energy into feeding the people that I really care about.



I'm a home cook who posts in that thread and I'm jealous of most of them too! Some really talented and passionate folks for sure.


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## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I'm a home cook who posts in that thread and I'm jealous of most of them too! Some really talented and passionate folks for sure.



That is for damn sure.


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## Carl Kotte (Feb 15, 2021)

Lars said:


> While I'm continuously baffled that I haven't yet been banned for my rank amateur contributions to the "What's cooking"-thread,


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## panda (Feb 15, 2021)

I bet you most of the votes are from home.cooks because no one ever actually reads context.


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## outofgamut (Feb 15, 2021)

I do not have many pro chefs to compare to - a friend of our's is an ex chef (and reliably cooks the best food I've had).

At least in his case I notice that he's extremely organised regarding how he stores ingredients, spices etc and everything else. He often prepares _tons_ of dishes that you'd think you'd need a whole kitchen brigade for and they just magically appear in a staggered fashion, having been removed from fridges in several stages of preparedness just in time to be entered into ovens, pans, etc. He has a notebook (paper) that he refers to as the day / evening progresses to keep track of things.

I think he is also exceptionally talented but his dishes have that certain level of 'zing' that elevates them over most other food. That skill of knowing when to add which vinegar and how much, which herbs to pair with something, the admirable skill of knowning exactly when the roast / steak / fish is done to the point.

I think there's also a difference in your ability to churn out something good every once in a while and being able to do it reliably every single time, for as many people as required. It's a bit like with photography: most amateur photographers (like me) will have some shots that are good or maybe very good. But bringing home the goods most times when you go out or creating them when asked for is a different level of skills.


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## big_adventure (Feb 15, 2021)

panda said:


> I bet you most of the votes are from home.cooks because no one ever actually reads context.



I didn't vote because I haven't been pro for decades.


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## McMan (Feb 15, 2021)

Lars said:


> While I'm continuously baffled that I haven't yet been banned for my rank amateur contributions to the "What's cooking"-thread, the pro cooks I have known and cooked for have been the most grateful dinner guests I have ever met. So maybe it's all good


No way--your food looks consistently delicious! All food, no fancy. (I mean that in a good way).
I think you and @DitmasPork are my top two for "likes" in that thread.

Edit: Forgot @Michi baked goods (pretzels!)


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## Twigg (Feb 15, 2021)

I didn't vote either because I am a home cook. I do appreciate the mix on here of pros and home cooks. I have learned a good bit and picked up some really great tips and recipes. I hope that whatever I am able to contribute helps someone too. I think it would be odd if a lot of pros did not like the home cooks. 

BTW, @Lars I am glad you post alot. I enjoy seeing your creations!


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## Ochazuke (Feb 15, 2021)

I actually think they're totally different skills. As mentioned here earlier, most "pros" work a line and do the same task repetitively. That doesn't mean they can actually put together a tasty meal. 

Passionate home cooks can probably put together a better overall meal than a lot of middling pros. But I can't think of many home cooks that could hold up in a busy commercial kitchen until they've grunted it out for a couple of months. 

Pro's who have been in the industry a while, worked a bunch of different stations, and done different kitchens can probably run circles around any home cook no matter how passionate they are. 

I think the test would be to put them both on a new recipe that neither have done before. I think their ability from best to worst would be: 1.) veteran, engaged pro chef, 2.) passionate home cook, 3.) 80% of "pros."


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## DitmasPork (Feb 15, 2021)

McMan said:


> No way--your food looks consistently delicious! All food, no fancy. (I mean that in a good way).
> I think you and @DitmasPork are my top two for "likes" in that thread.



Cheers! Humbled and flattered.


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## BillHanna (Feb 15, 2021)

I miss @Xenif ’s posts


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## Xenif (Feb 15, 2021)

BillHanna said:


> I miss @Xenif ’s posts



A good drug dealer always has to create withdrawal from the population before selling the exact same drug for more


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## ragz (Feb 16, 2021)

As long as the seasoning is about right I'm usually happy with home cooked meals from others. I have no expectation they would be able to cook at the same level

I'd say the only time where home cooks drive me nuts is when they feel the need to share some tidbit of cooking knowledge that they think I've never heard/seen before (spoilers, I have), or they try to cooking something widely over-complicated. IT will taste gross. Every time.


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## Matus (Feb 16, 2021)

I have only a few friends that are (or were) pro cooks. I would prefer not to cook for them unless there was a necessity. I can cook acceptably some dishes, but after I had a chance to eat what my pro friends can do - there is no point for me to spend 3 hours in a kitchen and then force them to either be honest about the result or try to pretend how well that overcooked steak tastes. Though at least one of them would probably enjoy to share his views with brutal honesty


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## JaVa (Feb 16, 2021)

I've enjoyed some really great food from home cooks and I've hated some awful garbage made by pro cooks.
So there's that too.


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## ian (Feb 16, 2021)

ragz said:


> As long as the seasoning is about right I'm usually happy with home cooked meals from others. I have no expectation they would be able to cook at the same level
> 
> I'd say the only time where home cooks drive me nuts is when they feel the need to share some tidbit of cooking knowledge that they think I've never heard/seen before (spoilers, I have), or they try to cooking something widely over-complicated. IT will taste gross. Every time.



Dude, did you know that searing meat doesn’t seal in the juices???


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## big_adventure (Feb 16, 2021)

ian said:


> Dude, did you know that searing meat doesn’t seal in the juices???



Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Mind blown. I'll never cook again. Who wants my knives?


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## JaVa (Feb 16, 2021)

On the grill you put a really nice dark caramelized crust on a beautiful steak and there's always that one bone head wondering why you burnt it? Oh the joy.


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## KO88 (Feb 16, 2021)

I think that pro cook have the greatest edge in getting finest ingredients. Very tough for home cook who needs just few of everything to get the best. In my eyes all good meals starts with the basic raw ingredients in best the quality. 
It s not hard to find the right recipe and replicate it. Yeah some skills are needed but usually it just take much more time to make the dish (it doesnt apply to Japanese cuisine  ). I would say that in many standard recipes (talking about Czech cuisine) you ve edge on pros because you dont need to take care of the economy or time or volume etc.

ps. if you ve 5 gyutos in 1k+ range you ve money for good kitchen equipment like thermometer or vacuum or nice grill or whatever you need...


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## andrewsa (Feb 16, 2021)

Ochazuke said:


> Passionate home cooks can probably put together a better overall meal than a lot of middling pros. But I can't think of many home cooks that could hold up in a busy commercial kitchen until they've grunted it out for a couple of months.
> 
> Pro's who have been in the industry a while, worked a bunch of different stations, and done different kitchens can probably run circles around any home cook no matter how passionate they are.



Very true to what is being said here and that this topic is quite situational than just using the words "Pro" and "home cook" to have an opinion. 

Reminded me what David Chang recently said on his postcast. Something on the lines of "most chefs you'd think would make good home cooks but often times they're not. Same goes for good home cooks would most likely make the worst chefs because they didn't know how to communicate in a pro kitchen"


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## JaVa (Feb 16, 2021)

A good chef makes good food from great ingredients. 
A great chef makes great food from any ingredients.


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## KO88 (Feb 16, 2021)

A top chef makes top food from top ingredients  

I mean by great ingredients not like only truffles and **** but quality it could be some cheap cut of meat or stupid bruschetta - but you cant make great bruschetta without great tomatos and olive oil... 

I mean quality makes the taste and if you know the right recipe you can get top food at home (not plating  ).

Thats my opinion. Cant imagine that great chef would make great carrot sauce from **** carrots sry. And back here in CZ supermarkets you get usually **** carrots and tomatos etc.


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## Brian Weekley (Feb 16, 2021)

IMO a home cook and a pro aren’t comparable. As a home cook I normally do 2 covers a shift ... a pro 200? I don’t care how long it takes to chop an onion. A pro certainly cares how long it takes to chop 50. I can take a week to plan and execute a family dinner for 8. The pro gets six families a night and they probably don’t tip. I don’t particularly care how much I pay to get the ingredients I want. The pro always has to have their eye on the bottom line. I adjust my cutting technique? to the knife I’m holding ... my knives are my treasures. The pro’s knives are their tools (maybe treasures too, but I doubt it). The pro’s knives must work with their cutting technique. I could go on but its like comparing a 900 foot ships captain to the driver of a runabout. Both have to know the rules of the sea but there’s a vast difference between the two.

I’m not saying that a home cook can’t lay out a meal for Gordon Ramsay that would calm his foul mouth. Certainly the home cook can. Do it for 200 faux Gordon Ramsay’s a shift? Completely different story.


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## Chefget (Feb 16, 2021)

As a pro two things come to mind;

1. Less dinner invitations from friends with wives that cook (didn't like the pressure of feeding a 'pro')

2. My jealousy of the home cook for how long they get to take to cook something.....and how they get to experiment (screw up) without consequences


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## riba (Feb 16, 2021)

Chefget said:


> 2. ...and how they get to experiment (screw up) without consequences


Clearly haven't met my wife


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## big_adventure (Feb 16, 2021)

Chefget said:


> 2. My jealousy of the home cook for how long they get to take to cook something.....and how they get to experiment (screw up) without consequences



There is one consequence: if you screw it up badly enough, there usually isn't any way to fix it at home. 

In most pro kitchens, if you drop a steak into a bread slicer, well, you can just grab another steak and cook it. Your numbers won't like it, but the meal will get served. And you should probably consider not keeping the bread slicer next to the meat station. 

At home, you probably only have exactly enough of ingredients for the dish as planned. If you blow it, you're screwed, it's time to hit up ubereats.


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## Rreidiii (Feb 16, 2021)

My mom was the best home cook who would blow away many so called professIonal chefs. And she taught me.


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## DitmasPork (Feb 16, 2021)

Ok, home cook here.

It's difficult to generalize home cook vs pro cook, beyond the latter cooking to make money. A friend once tried to compliment me on a dish I cooked for her by saying, "wow, just like restaurant food!' I asked if that was good or bad?

— Pro cooks. I've lived in NYC for the past few decades, a restaurant savvy city where many eat out more than at home. The 250 square foot studio apartment I had for 18 years made restaurant dining more frequent than cooking at home. I've eaten uncountable meals made by 'pro cooks,' ranging from taco joints to 4-star restaurants, chop suey houses, food trucks, and catered events—also have many friends who are professional cooks, some of whom are incredibly talented in the kitchen.

— Pro cooks. I love restaurants—have immense respects for many pro cooks, and disdain for many. On the one hand, I've eaten some of the most memorable, dazzling meals at fine restaurants, dishes by exceptionally talented cooks. I've also lost count of dishes I've sent back put together by indifferent, inadequate cooks—meats over cooked, over salted, cold be sitting at the pass waiting for other dishes for the table to arrive, orders messed up. Fact is, there's more pressure on a cook when money is paid for a meal—so, if a $50 steak is over done; or special request not fulfilled, then you gotta send it back.

— Ingredients of pro cooks vs home cooks. Especially these days, both (at least I do) have access to the same quality of ingredients. In a starred restaurant, ingredients will generally be exceptional, but the customer is paying for it. It irks me when restaurants cut corners with inferior ingredients. If feeling like a splurge, the home cook has an advantage of not needing to be concerned with the stringent budget requirements that restaurants must adhere to make a profit.

— Taste, talent and kitchen skill level of pro cook vs home cook. Cooking as a profession doesn't automatically equate a high level of kitchen skill, a sophisticated taste sensibility, or cooking talent—a cook in any environment gets better through repetition, but not guaranteed to generate ambition or good taste. Depends on the cook—there're good and bad cooks both at home and in the professional kitchen. If anyone visits NYC, I'd be happy to direct them to a stunningly bad restaurant to prove a point. Fact.

— Knives of pro cooks vs home cooks. Most of the pro cooks a know are not knife nerds, just cooking to make a living, happy using Wustofs, Victorinox and the like. Many pro cooks I know wanting to explore J-knives won't venture beyond Shun or Misono because of their cook's wages. At the risk of fisticuffs—I'll say that with higher end knives—say north of $400 a gyuto—home cooks (that I know) have better, higher price point knives than pro cooks. Yes, there're a bunch of pro cooks with formidable collections of Shig/Kato/Tsourkans—but it's often the home cooks working in IT, banking, medical, law, and other well paid professions that have the financial might to buy a Kato/Denkas/Haburns at will. I can buy a yanagi to use and lean a skill, but a pro cook might need to check with the head chef about bringing in specialized knives. On the lower end, my family in the islands more than happy with their knives in the $10–$25 price point.

—Restaurant food vs home cooked. Just different experiences—the best of each will rival the other. Home cooks have the freedom to cook what they want, change things up at a whim, not needing to adhere to a restaurant's menu/brand/vision, etc.


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## Delat (Feb 16, 2021)

I'd be perfectly happy to invite a pro cook to my next dinner party, personally. Good food, good company, good booze. What's not to like? And if they don't like my cooking, well 2 out of 3 ain't bad!


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## YumYumSauce (Feb 16, 2021)

Seems like we should focus on a pro's ability to cook at home vs a home cooks. Cooking in a professional kitchen is vastly different than cooking at home as previously mentioned. You're cooking against the clock as a team to set standards. Rarely do you deviate from a set menu and it would be the wrong time to get "creative" and expirement when the tickets are flying in. 

I think most of us pro's would run into the same problem as home cooks as far as equipement and ingredient procurement goes. Its not like we can take home speciality ingredients unless you're the chef owner and most of us dont make a boatload of money to buy all the fancy equipement or specialty ingredients. 

I have been building up my kitchen toys and know where to look to find certain ingredients and happen to have access to a resturant supply store. Some things are still often cost prohibitive unless I want to splurge or have to buy in bulk which is often too much quantity for home usage. 

I see it going basically how @Ochazuke ranked it. I think the passionate home cook and average pro would be a lot closer than veteran pro vs passionate homecook, or average pro vs average home cook.


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## Bodine (Feb 16, 2021)

being a pro cook would be a tough job for sure. I cook because I like to, not because I have to pay the bills. I take any night off I want, prepare what interests me( right now soups and Asian food)
There is no one in the kitchen with me, hence total agreement on everything.
God bless the pro's, I cherish a good meal out now and then.


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## DitmasPork (Feb 16, 2021)

I have the utmost respect for passionate, hardworking, talented cooks—but would never want to be one. Eating a meal at a good restaurant, one of the joys in my life—much respect to the joints that got the ensemble clicking right, meeting that perfect sweet spot of ambiance, service, price point, menu, food, etc.

Whenever I visit my parents, always try to get them out to restaurants, but my mom hates most Chinese restaurants—and she's Chinese—her dislike of them stems from paying money for Chinese dishes she can make better at home. Man, If I had a nickel for every Cantonese joint I've eaten at that has hacks at the woks, churning out substandard beef chow fun, bad fried rice, dried out kau yuk! Mad props to the good Chinese restaurants.

The good pro cooks I know are remarkable in their organizational skillset—able to crank out dish after dish, at a consistently high level of quality. As a home cook, I've the advantage of giving my complete attention to a single set of dishes each meal.

I think because of sheer volume of ingredients the average pro cook preps, they can be more keyed into nuances, potential and limits of their tools—chopping up a sack of onions leads to different insights than the two onions I'll chop for my weekly chana masala.


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## krx927 (Feb 16, 2021)

McMan said:


> No way--your food looks consistently delicious! All food, no fancy. (I mean that in a good way).
> I think you and @DitmasPork are my top two for "likes" in that thread.
> 
> Edit: Forgot @Michi baked goods (pretzels!)



Please! Do not forget Xenif!!!


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## DitmasPork (Feb 16, 2021)

krx927 said:


> Please! Do not forget Xenif!!!


He's been rocking it on IG. Inspired.


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## Matt Zilliox (Feb 16, 2021)

I'm not quite sure what we are discussing. I'm a home cook who does events as a "pro". Wine dinners, yoga retreats, private events. 

Now a simple dinner at home is never so simple ( except eggs)

I like cooking at home, spacing out, getting intoxicated, using 5 knives to cut 5 ingredients.

I like working to serve 50 people food that's like home cooked but better. I like 3 days of pressure, planning, executing. I like chopping things fast. I like prep work. 

Then I like to have time before I do it again. 

I'd only take 3 or 4 of my knives to work... 

My knife skills are as good as most pros... I think it's more a matter of learning well and looking to improve. I know pros who's knife skills are shocking.


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## big_adventure (Feb 16, 2021)

Matt Zilliox said:


> I'm not quite sure what we are discussing. I'm a home cook who does events as a "pro". Wine dinners, yoga retreats, private events.



I literally thought you wrote that you did "yoghourt retreats" on first pass. And couldn't for the life of me imagine what a yoghourt retreat would be, and why someone would want to do one.


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## Matt Zilliox (Feb 16, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I literally thought you wrote that you did "yoghourt retreats" on first pass. And couldn't for the life of me imagine what a yoghourt retreat would be, and why someone would want to do one.


Yogurts pretty amazing. Haha.


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## krx927 (Feb 16, 2021)

Thank you to all you posters! By far the best non knife related thread on KKF that I read since I joined many years ago!


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## DitmasPork (Feb 16, 2021)

Completely awesome pro cook skillz.


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## YumYumSauce (Feb 16, 2021)

DitmasPork said:


> Completely awesome pro cook skillz.





Whos profile is that?


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## orangehero (Feb 16, 2021)

Ya'll need to catch up talking about pro chefs here...modern hipster chefs just "forage" for ingredients and then have their guests do the cooking now.


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## DitmasPork (Feb 16, 2021)

YumYumSauce said:


> Whos profile is that?



That's a video of the amazingly skilled Eitan on Khashy's IG.


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## AT5760 (Feb 16, 2021)

I demand more @Xenif bento box pictures so that I can feel proper shame as I pack frozen vegetables and scrambled eggs for my kids' lunches!


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## YumYumSauce (Feb 16, 2021)

DitmasPork said:


> That's a video of the amazingly skilled Eitan on Khashy's IG.




Nice, just followed!


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## ian (Feb 16, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> I demand more @Xenif bento box pictures so that I can feel proper shame as I pack frozen vegetables and scrambled eggs for my kids' lunches!



Your kids eat vegetables and eggs? I feel so ashamed.


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## outofgamut (Feb 16, 2021)

orangehero said:


> Ya'll need to catch up talking about pro chefs here...modern hipster chefs just "forage" for ingredients and then have their guests do the cooking now.



This level of eating out has always had a significant component of theatre as a core ingredient. Nothing wrong with that - it’s just a different way to go.
Personally, I much favour the more simple approach where people don’t tell me what I’m about to eat and how great it is while they serve it to me. I’ll be the judge of that. But some love it...


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## orangehero (Feb 16, 2021)

outofgamut said:


> This level of eating out has always had a significant component of theatre as a core ingredient. Nothing wrong with that - it’s just a different way to go.
> Personally, I much favour the more simple approach where people don’t tell me what I’m about to eat and how great it is while they serve it to me. I’ll be the judge of that. But some love it...


Literally the #1 restaurant in the world.


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## outofgamut (Feb 16, 2021)

orangehero said:


> Literally the #1 restaurant in the world.


Yeah.

Redzepi was here in Australia with a pop up version of Noma a few years back and scoured the shore for things to serve to his guests. Why René Redzepi Chose Australia for Noma

This level of cooking isa strong crossover to the area of arts in my mind. As I said, that’s perfectly fine. I’m just perfectly happy without the drama and more down to earth environments.


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## orangehero (Feb 16, 2021)

outofgamut said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Redzepi was here in Australia with a pop up version of Noma a few years back and scoured the shore for things to serve to his guests. Why René Redzepi Chose Australia for Noma
> 
> This level of cooking isa strong crossover to the area of arts in my mind. As I said, that’s perfectly fine. I’m just perfectly happy without the drama and more down to earth environments.



I agree I'm skeptical when someone is trying to sell me a story about how the seaweed from the beach is worth $300. If you can be convinced that kind of meal brings you joy, and if world renowned joy no less, then it's worth it.


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## Nagakin (Feb 17, 2021)

I really do respect home cooks that take it to a high level, because most foods I'd never make if I wasn't getting paid and I'm not curious enough to make dishes I have no frame of reference for just to try. Everything in my repertoire was learned on the job. The industry was fantastic pre-COVID and merc work was a great way to get paid while getting educated. 

When left to my own devices I'll just refine what I already know. Basically, if I was a home cook my Stove Top stuffing would be unmatched.


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## GorillaGrunt (Feb 17, 2021)

I don’t judge someone who isn’t a pro the same way as someone who is. Beyond that I’m sure there are plenty of enthusiast cooks with professional level skill - just like in a lot of fields probably, photography, whatever. My girlfriend is an interesting example in that her food is certainly typical family cook style (very good though) but the way she moves in the kitchen is like we do. I don’t know where she learned that but she’s one of the few people I can cook with in a small kitchen.


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## Alder26 (Feb 17, 2021)

I think it's worth pointing out that I have worked with many people that fall into the 'Annoying Wannabe' classification, and have eaten many home cook's food that made me blush a little because I didn't know if I could measure up.

I have hired more than one cook that had an eager stage, showed up with expensive knives, and knew a bit about cooking, and then subsequently fired them because they were untrustworthy, unable to take direction, lazy/slow/a hack. It is a common misconception that every line cook is an aspirational Michelin chef with a Spanish soccer player's haircut. Likewise there are lots of crusty dirtbags that can blow you away with their food, but they are only aspiring to be a gun for hire.

I myself got my start working FOH when I was 19 and weaseled my way into the kitchen when I was 20 because I was an avid home cook (also a wannabe). If you apply yourself you will learn to make good food, work hard, clean up after yourself, be an chef (at home or in a restaurant).


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## Oshidashi (Feb 18, 2021)

I am merely a home cook, but cook often, and we are four adults in my household. I'm always trying new things, improvising, trying to please everyone's palates and stomachs. Often I succeed. But I imagine I would fail in almost any role in a professional kitchen, from lack of experience, lack of efficiency, and, if nothing else, then I'd surely die of heat stroke.

I have great admiration for the talented people in grueling, hot, stressful restaurant kitchens, and I often wonder what exactly they each do back there. How do things flow and how is it organized? How can a kitchen kick out dozens of dishes simultaneously that emerge plated so beautifully? For me as a restaurant diner it's rather a mystery, and I imagine for the cooks it must be disappointing to know how little the customers know of what goes into getting a fine meal out to their table in a timely fashion.

Also, I hate to think of the impact the Covid pandemic is having on so many restaurants and workers. I haven't eaten out in a year. Someday I'll be eating in restaurants again, and hope the myriad talented cooks will have survived in good health and good spirits, and will be back at it.


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## Luftmensch (Feb 19, 2021)

ian said:


> My deep seated inferiority complex asked me to post the poll above



It is easy. The bean counters and people who pull the purse strings know exactly how to measure this. It is the _C-index_ - the number of meals you have cooked, 'C', such that the meal fed at least C people. Just compare your C-index to other people and you will know your intrinsic value as a chef/cook, nay, a human. It is the cook-or-crook paradigm... cook more meals than last year or you're eighty-sixed.

[Edit: I realise I am narrowcasting here...]


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## Luftmensch (Feb 19, 2021)

YumYumSauce said:


> What grinds my gears more are those "foodie yelp reviewer influcencer" types who post pics for the "gram" and think they know more about food cause they can afford nice places but can probably barely boil a potato



1000%

Nothing more boring than people who serially brag about food _somebody else_ prepared. People width mad toaster skills impress me more than 'Foodies'.


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## DavidPF (Feb 20, 2021)

JaVa said:


> A good chef makes good food from great ingredients.
> A great chef makes great food from any ingredients.


Looks cool on paper, but definitely comes with severe limitations in practice. Some ingredient lists just don't make great food no matter what you do with them, and a lot of great chefs derive a large part of their greatness from having a wide variety to choose from - and making smart choices from it of course. As well as smart non-food business decisions. 

Making the best of bad ingredients is useful, but not a be-all/end-all.

My proposal: a great chef is one who you never have to cut any slack for having a bad day, because as far as anybody can tell, they never have one.


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## orangehero (Feb 20, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Looks cool on paper, but definitely comes with severe limitations in practice. Some ingredient lists just don't make great food no matter what you do with them, and a lot of great chefs derive a large part of their greatness from having a wide variety to choose from - and making smart choices from it of course. As well as smart non-food business decisions.
> 
> Making the best of bad ingredients is useful, but not a be-all/end-all.
> 
> My proposal: a great chef is one who you never have to cut any slack for having a bad day, because as far as anybody can tell, they never have one.



There was an interview with Jacques Pepin where he talked about how his mother would go to the market at closing to pick up the unwanted produce at discount for the family and for the restaurant and how she was a master of making the most of it. I wish I could find it.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 20, 2021)

orangehero said:


> There was an interview with Jacques Pepin where he talked about how his mother would go to the market at closing to pick up the unwanted produce at discount for the family and for the restaurant and how she was a master of making the most of it. I wish I could find it.



Maybe the Jaques and Anthony Bourdain interview? I know I've seen him talk about it as well.


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## DavidPF (Feb 20, 2021)

orangehero said:


> There was an interview with Jacques Pepin where he talked about how his mother would go to the market at closing to pick up the unwanted produce at discount for the family and for the restaurant and how she was a master of making the most of it. I wish I could find it.


I don't deny it's an excellent skill, but it's far far more important for a home cook than it is for a great chef. The TV stunt of cooking with a dramatically small ingredient list is just that, a stunt.

When transportation and cold storage was much more limited, and local & in-season was the only possibility that existed rather than a choice to make, it was much more important.


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## tcmx3 (Feb 20, 2021)

in the same interview Anthony is taken aback by Jacques stating that he (JP) believed that ingredients superceded technique. In fact, Anthony derails the whole interview to argue it.

also orangehero taking pot shots at Redzepi is so in-character Im starting to wonder if it's an act


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## DavidPF (Feb 20, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> orangehero taking pot shots at Redzepi


I hadn't paid attention to that exchange.

@orangehero You're literally arguing against your own point. Redzepi was making use of what he could get and creating something from it, and by your own definition that makes him great. So please make up your mind.


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## ragz (Feb 20, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> in the same interview Anthony is taken aback by Jacques stating that he (JP) believed that ingredients superceded technique. In fact, Anthony derails the whole interview to argue it.



Honestly I think they are both are right. There are plenty of restaurants that are at the "top" of the restaurant world that really buy the best, most expensive ingredients, and don't adulterate them and plop them on a plate. It's quite easy on the execution, just insanely expensive. Similarly, there are equally prestigious restaurants that straight up use mountains mirepoix, bones, and very few lux ingredients to create cuisine of the same level. Each come with their set of difficulties, but from a cooks perspective restaurants that lean on more expensive or rare ingredients feel like cheating. But hey, from a dinning and critic perspective, they are seen as equal.


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## tcmx3 (Feb 20, 2021)

ragz said:


> Honestly I think they are both are right. There are plenty of restaurants that are at the "top" of the restaurant world that really buy the best, most expensive ingredients, and don't adulterate them and plop them on a plate. It's quite easy on the execution, just insanely expensive. Similarly, there are equally prestigious restaurants that straight up use mountains mirepoix, bones, and very few lux ingredients to create cuisine of the same level. Each come with their set of difficulties, but from a cooks perspective restaurants that lean on more expensive or rare ingredients feel like cheating. But hey, from a dinning and critic perspective, they are seen as equal.



sure. I didnt mean my post as an endorsement of either side. frankly I think like a lot of things "it depends" on the context. just pointing out that the way it was brought up was inconsistent with what Jacques himself was actually saying.


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## TSF415 (Feb 21, 2021)

Some are good, some suck.... same as pro cooks.


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## DavidPF (Feb 21, 2021)

TSF415 said:


> Some are good, some suck.... same as pro cooks.


Definitely ... though the skills are sometimes different. As a cook I'm disorganized and slow, so much that in a pro situation I wouldn't last an hour, let alone a shift or a week.


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## DavidPF (Feb 21, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I literally thought you wrote that you did "yoghourt retreats" on first pass. And couldn't for the life of me imagine what a yoghourt retreat would be, and why someone would want to do one.


The retreats are OK.

The problems start happening when it decides to attack.


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## big_adventure (Feb 21, 2021)

orangehero said:


> There was an interview with Jacques Pepin where he talked about how his mother would go to the market at closing to pick up the unwanted produce at discount for the family and for the restaurant and how she was a master of making the most of it. I wish I could find it.



That is a lovely anecdote by Jacques. And it may or may not have a soupçon of truth in it. This is Jacques Pepin of course, the dude made a celebrity chef living for a long time, and playful fun impressive anecdotes are part of that. He's also got plenty of 3 minute videos teaching you skills that you simply cannot learn in 3 minutes. All the respect in the world to him, but stories like that, while delightful, are not things I'd just accept on face value. 

Here's a story... I went to a 3 day cooking seminar with Alice Waters years and years ago ( I want to say it was in 2001 or 2002, Mondavi Great Chefs series at the winery in Oakville ). Now, Alice by then wasn't actually doing any more cooking: she was basically the ambassador for fresh ingredients, anti-fast-food, old-world integration, etc. At the class, her exec from the restaurant was there, along with a few comis, for all of the actual cooking. She didn't handle a knife, didn't do any prep or cooking at all, really. But the second morning, she got up early before the class and went walking along the bank of the Napa river. She came into the class with an old shopping bag full of nettles and such that she'd picked along the river to include in the salad. Was it good? Ehhhhhh... it wasn't terrible? It also led to an hour and a half lecture on eating whatever greens we can find, wherever, about the mesculun she would buy daily and eat as a student in Europe. I'll stick to arugula thanks.

What I'm saying is that brilliant chefs can tell us cute anecdotes but at the end of the day, it's just grass.


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## big_adventure (Feb 21, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> The retreats are OK.
> 
> The problems start happening when it decides to attack.



I've been there. It's... horrible. So... goooooey.


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## DavidPF (Feb 21, 2021)

Alder26 said:


> If you apply yourself you will learn


Countless people have proven this wrong over and over. It's simply not true. Of course it _seems_ true, because it has a built-in escape hatch - "He didn't measure up? Obviously he didn't apply himself then." It's just circular reasoning masquerading as logic.

Applying yourself does not make you learn. Applying yourself does not improve your skills. It may be necessary (I'm not certain), but it is never sufficient.


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## Chuckles (Feb 21, 2021)

I am really surprised that ‘why do you need a $500 knife to cut one onion’ is at 40%. I can only assume those same people understand that you certainly don’t need a $500 knife to make a living making food either.

I have distinct memories of working side by side with chefs where we made fun of each other for needing fancy knives to split a burger in half. And that was thinking a Misono was fancy.


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## FishmanDE (Feb 21, 2021)

Anyone who try’s hard and cares about what they cook gets my respect, delicious or not. And they’re entitled to use whatever knife they please, regardless of the amount of onions. What gets my panties in a bunch is when someone buys a high end tool, and doesn’t treat it with respect. I don’t mean disrespect anyone, this is more directed at the poor collectors/ chefs who don’t treat their hand crafted knives with the bit of reverence and respect they deserve.


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## big_adventure (Feb 21, 2021)

Chuckles said:


> I am really surprised that ‘why do you need a $500 knife to cut one onion’ is at 40%. I can only assume those same people understand that you certainly don’t need a $500 knife to make a living making food either.
> 
> I have distinct memories of working side by side with chefs where we made fun of each other for needing fancy knives to split a burger in half. And that was thinking a Misono was fancy.



I don't need _one $_500 knife to cut an onion! I need _several _$500 knives to cut an onion!!!!


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## GorillaGrunt (Feb 21, 2021)

I’ve heard it as a French culinary saying: “the dish can never be better than the ingredients (sometimes rendered ‘the produce’) that went into it.” That has merit. A good chef also has the skill to make anything out of almost anything: grabbing two seemingly random items from a shelf and knowing which can be made to work and which to avoid on that plate. True mastery and expertise involves both knowing all the rules, the musts and the nevers, and also knowing with an increasing degree of precision which can be bent or broken and when. One of the most respected and skilled chefs I’ve worked with got about half of his stuff from specialty producers, a fish farm that uses the fish water to grow hydro greens in the winter and so on, and the other half from the Italian grocer down the street.


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## DavidPF (Feb 21, 2021)

Chuckles said:


> I have distinct memories of working side by side with chefs where we made fun of each other for needing fancy knives to split a burger in half. And that was thinking a Misono was fancy.


There's quite a mess going on there, that (a) if you're any good you should be able to cut anything perfectly well using only a slice of cold toast and your nerves of steel, *and* (b) a good knife is the object of envy at the same time. Maybe (a) is nothing but an embarrassed cover-up for (b), or maybe it's its own thing.

The fact that it all starts by noticing the knife makes me lean towards "embarrassed cover-up".


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## panda (Feb 21, 2021)

I'd still be using ikea knives if I didn't use them for a living


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## ian (Feb 21, 2021)

Chuckles said:


> I am really surprised that ‘why do you need a $500 knife to cut one onion’ is at 40%. I can only assume those same people understand that you certainly don’t need a $500 knife to make a living making food either.
> 
> I have distinct memories of working side by side with chefs where we made fun of each other for needing fancy knives to split a burger in half. And that was thinking a Misono was fancy.



Heh, fair enough. On the one hand, you’ll reap the benefits of a great knife more if you use it for 3 hrs vs 10 minutes. But on the other hand, sex is good whether it lasts 5 min or 2 hrs, amiright?


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## JaVa (Feb 21, 2021)

ian said:


> Heh, fair enough. On the one hand, you’ll reap the benefits of a great knife more if you use it for 3 hrs vs 10 minutes. But on the other hand, sex is good whether it lasts 5 min or 2 hrs, amiright?


Hard to argue with that.
...BUT...
Ask your dance partner if she agrees.
You might get an opposing opinion?


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## Rreidiii (Feb 21, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> in the same interview Anthony is taken aback by Jacques stating that he (JP) believed that ingredients superceded technique. In fact, Anthony derails the whole interview to argue it.
> 
> also orangehero taking pot shots at Redzepi is so in-character Im starting to wonder if it's an act



Bourdain was a fairly good cook and extremely charismatic. Pepin is a true master chef.


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## orangehero (Feb 21, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> in the same interview Anthony is taken aback by Jacques stating that he (JP) believed that ingredients superceded technique. In fact, Anthony derails the whole interview to argue it.
> 
> also orangehero taking pot shots at Redzepi is so in-character Im starting to wonder if it's an act



There's also another interview where Pepin says his favorite meal is just some good bread with some good butter.


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## panda (Feb 22, 2021)

orangehero said:


> There's also another interview where Pepin says his favorite meal is just some good bread with some good butter.


mine is rice and eggs


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## rmrf (Feb 22, 2021)

panda said:


> mine is rice and eggs



I like few things more than a great peach or small, dry farmed strawberries but that's not really a meal I guess.


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## big_adventure (Feb 22, 2021)

orangehero said:


> There's also another interview where Pepin says his favorite meal is just some good bread with some good butter.



A good baguette with good french salted butter is pretty epic. I get his point.


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## Luftmensch (Feb 25, 2021)

I am surprised the discussion has not touched on the difference between a chef and a cook. Perhaps it neednt?

I have not voted because I am not a pro... Nevertheless; I believe passionate/good home cooks are capable of preparing equally delicious meals to pro-cooks (with caveats).

However, the population of home cooks who have skills comparable to chefs is probably minuscule to none. I don't think home cooks have any reason to accrue the planning, logistical, volume and management skills that are necessary to be a good chef. Although, maybe I misunderstand the differentiation between cook and chef... or don't fully understand what is required!


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## M1k3 (Feb 25, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> I am surprised the discussion has not touched on the difference between a chef and a cook. Perhaps it neednt?
> 
> I have not voted because I am not a pro... Nevertheless; I believe passionate/good home cooks are capable of preparing equally delicious meals to pro-cooks (with caveats).
> 
> However, the population of home cooks who have skills comparable to chefs is probably minuscule to none. I don't think home cooks have any reason to accrue the planning, logistical, volume and management skills that are necessary to be a good chef. Although, maybe I misunderstand the differentiation between cook and chef... or don't fully understand what is required!


Difference between Chef and Cook. Only one can fire me.


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## big_adventure (Feb 25, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> I am surprised the discussion has not touched on the difference between a chef and a cook. Perhaps it neednt?
> 
> I have not voted because I am not a pro... Nevertheless; I believe passionate/good home cooks are capable of preparing equally delicious meals to pro-cooks (with caveats).
> 
> However, the population of home cooks who have skills comparable to chefs is probably minuscule to none. I don't think home cooks have any reason to accrue the planning, logistical, volume and management skills that are necessary to be a good chef. Although, maybe I misunderstand the differentiation between cook and chef... or don't fully understand what is required!



Chef is just a bastardization of the French word. In French, it just means boss. "Ton chef" is your boss in any field - it's not remotely linked to kitchen all by it's lonesome. "Chef de cuisine" is just kitchen boss. 
That kitchen boss would be responsable for both the recipes and the production, as you state. 

So you are right, being the "chef" in this case implies running the business (or whatever professional kitchen we're talking about) and you are correct in that most home cooks would not be capable of doing that job efficiently. Of course, most pro cooks wouldn't be capable of it either - simply because the skills for managing people and budgets and business partners are very different than the skills used in prep or on the line.


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## JaVa (Feb 25, 2021)

chef = chief ?
...I'm guessing?


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## Luftmensch (Feb 25, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Chef is just a bastardization of the French word. In French, it just means boss. "Ton chef" is your boss in any field - it's not remotely linked to kitchen all by it's lonesome. "Chef de cuisine" is just kitchen boss.
> That kitchen boss would be responsable for both the recipes and the production, as you state.
> 
> So you are right, being the "chef" in this case implies running the business (or whatever professional kitchen we're talking about) and you are correct in that most home cooks would not be capable of doing that job efficiently. Of course, most pro cooks wouldn't be capable of it either - simply because the skills for managing people and budgets and business partners are very different than the skills used in prep or on the line.



Thats what i was thinking: "chef" as in "chef de cuisine"... but there are many sub-"chefs" within the kitchen brigade. English allows for a more loose usage of the word "chef". I suppose that can pave over the layers of responsibility/seniority within the hierarchy. 

But now that I think about it... I suppose even a home cook will have to manage the kitchen (plan a meal, manage inventory etc) if they entertain guests. 

I guess another point I would add is that although some of my most enjoyable meals have been around domestic tables, none of my friends or family are truely innovative. They are capable of making delicious meals but it is derivative. Derivative in the sense that they are cooking recipes past down through their family/culture, following recipes from a book (etc), or improvising on a well established theme. If that sounds like a complaint... it isnt! Just an observation. I dont think I have ever had a domestic meal that was notably original or unusual. I recognise that is a ridiculously unfair expectation! One that I dont apply. But it does illuminate the gulf between a chef at the top of their game and a seriously passionate home cook.


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## Luftmensch (Feb 25, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Difference between Chef and Cook. Only one can fire me.



Neither can fire me ... I am easily intimidated though . I am sure both could scare me away with something heavy or pointy (or heavy _and_ pointy) from the kitchen!!

... Heck... an assertive tone would probably do...


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## Carl Kotte (Feb 25, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Neither can fire me ... I am easily intimidated though . I am sure both could scare me away with something heavy or pointy (or heavy _and_ pointy) from the kitchen!!
> 
> ... Heck... an assertive tone would probably do...


Buuuuh!


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 25, 2021)

panda said:


> mine is rice and eggs



A perfectly fried egg for me. Crispy edges, runny yolk, just the right amount of salt at the end... Hmph!


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## big_adventure (Feb 25, 2021)

JaVa said:


> chef = chief ?
> ...I'm guessing?



Yup


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## chiffonodd (Feb 25, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Thats what i was thinking: "chef" as in "chef de cuisine"... but there are many sub-"chefs" within the kitchen brigade. English allows for a more loose usage of the word "chef". I suppose that can pave over the layers of responsibility/seniority within the hierarchy.
> 
> But now that I think about it... I suppose even a home cook will have to manage the kitchen (plan a meal, manage inventory etc) if they entertain guests.
> 
> I guess another point I would add is that although some of my most enjoyable meals have been around domestic tables, none of my friends or family are truely innovative. They are capable of making delicious meals but it is derivative. Derivative in the sense that they are cooking recipes past down through their family/culture, following recipes from a book (etc), or improvising on a well established theme. If that sounds like a complaint... it isnt! Just an observation. I dont think I have ever had a domestic meal that was notably original or unusual. I recognise that is a ridiculously unfair expectation! One that I dont apply. But it does illuminate the gulf between a chef at the top of their game and a seriously passionate home cook.



Just curious - what is a dish that you would consider innovative as opposed to derivative?


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## Ochazuke (Feb 25, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> I am surprised the discussion has not touched on the difference between a chef and a cook. Perhaps it neednt?
> 
> I have not voted because I am not a pro... Nevertheless; I believe passionate/good home cooks are capable of preparing equally delicious meals to pro-cooks (with caveats).
> 
> However, the population of home cooks who have skills comparable to chefs is probably minuscule to none. I don't think home cooks have any reason to accrue the planning, logistical, volume and management skills that are necessary to be a good chef. Although, maybe I misunderstand the differentiation between cook and chef... or don't fully understand what is required!


I admit to not having an understanding of western kitchen hierarchy. For me I tend to think of pros as falling in to two categories: employees or shokunin. But I don’t think that my division correlates to the cook/chef division. A shokunin can spend their whole life on one dish - it merely shows dedication to a craft. But I’m under the impression (though I may be mistaken) that western chefs are supposed to be competent in a variety of kitchen skills.

I think a kitchen pro from any background can be a shokunin - just depends on their dedication. I prefer to eat the food of a shokunin, but sometimes I’d rather work with the person who simply makes food for money.


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## Luftmensch (Feb 26, 2021)

chiffonodd said:


> Just curious - what is a dish that you would consider innovative as opposed to derivative?



Awww man... . Yeah! Fair question...

Again... let me emphasise; meals shared with friends or family are about good food and good company! I am never scoring domestic meals on originality. I had to wrack my brain a little to think what might separate a professional from a passionate home cook. It gets murky. What type of professional? How passionate is the home cook?

If you exclude culinary education. Or years of experience in the kitchen. One thing that professionals are likely to do, that home cooks are not, is cook food they are not interested in. Or even food they actively dislike. They are employees right? They literally have to cook what is on the menu! Home cooks? They get to do what they want! 

I think that freedom can settle into a comfortable (predictable) routine. Whether that routine is dictated by necessity (time/money), culture, allergies, preferences or interests. The most adventurous home cooks I know are constantly trying out new recipes. When entertaining they often freely state which book they are currently exploring. The most creative home cooks that I know and admire can whip up a competent, unplanned meal out of random ingredients from the pantry/fridge. But even these adventurous and creative cooks are riffing off 'classics' or doing a great job of following/modifying recipes. I think it takes a lot of exposure to different ingredients and techniques to become innovative. If it is not your day job... you'd have to be really passionate to accrue the level of experience (not impossible).


I have wormed around your question a fair bit . I think an accessible form of innovation that home cooks could replicate in their kitchen is fusion food. "All it takes" is to rethink a dish by taking the ingredients, flavours, spices from one culture and splicing it with the preparation techniques or 'base' from another culture. In practice, it is not so easy to pull off. Even if you are technically capable, you have to have insights across the cuisines with a flare for matching flavours/textures.

Nobody I know is capable of pulling that off meaningfully. But that could say more about the people i know than anything insightful. Or maybe this whole rant indicates that I am a cynical, overly analytical and hard to please guest that shouldnt be invited to dinner


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## Luftmensch (Feb 26, 2021)

Ochazuke said:


> I admit to not having an understanding of western kitchen hierarchy.





That question should be answered by real pros. What I know is from reading and popular culture. The wikipedia article on the 'kitchen brigade' is a good summary of the positions.

My editorial note is that the 'west' is about as culturally homogeneous as the 'east' . Which is to say... not homogeneous at all. The UK, North America and Australia are proudly individual but share a lot in common. Europe is a patchwork of distinct cultures! This last bit is important.

I don't have deep insights into French food...Nor am I a history buff... So I could be wrong... I suspect the degree to which French _food_ has been revered in the past two centuries has more to do with aspiration and parochialism than anything fundamentally brilliant about the _food_. I am thinking out loud here... but the interesting part about French cuisine could be in the 'uninteresting' aspect of its history. Perhaps the degree to which it is significant is really a story of disposable income and mass production.

A modern society was born from the ruins of the French revolution and Napoleonic France. One where the aristocracy had less control and a professional class could grow. A larger number of citizens with disposable incomes makes the concept of a restaurant viable. It was only a matter of time before establishments opened that allowed these people to eat like the aristocracy. The significance of this is that French restaurants had to solve the problem of offering mass produced fine-dining at an acceptable cost - the model-T Ford of dining. Clean table for yourself? Menu to select from? Nicely dressed waiters? If you are wealthy and aspirational, what is there to dislike? The 'restaurant' was exported to other countries with similarly wealthy populations. The language used to describe the process followed.

As for the _food_... eh... again, I could be wrong... but getting back to that concept of Europe. I am sure countries with their own multi-century food cultures (like Italy, Germany, Spain, Greece.. to name a few) listen with amusement to those who preach the unmatched elegance and sophistication of French food. While these countries may have appropriated aspects of the French restaurant, I am sure it was modified to suit their own needs - so their traditional hierarchies may be different.



Ochazuke said:


> A shokunin can spend their whole life on one dish - it merely shows dedication to a craft. But I’m under the impression (though I may be mistaken) that western chefs are supposed to be competent in a variety of kitchen skills.



I guess it depends on what you mean by dish! There are no doubt, countless cooks/chefs/pizzaiolos in Italy who do nothing but make pizza. If you broaden 'shokunin' to other artisans it would include all the bakers, cheese makers and oil producers etc... If you do mean one very, very, very specific dish... What you said is probably true. The closest thing might be a Western chefs who has a signature dish (either because they invented it or are exceptional at it). But they will still have a broader background.


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## DavidPF (Feb 28, 2021)

JaVa said:


> chef = chief ?
> ...I'm guessing?


Not true for every modern use of the word, but true that they share the same historic source. Directly translating one for the other would probably be understood most of the time, but would often sound odd. (An office worker saying "My chief asked me to start early next week" sounds funny in English, for example.) But yeah, same basic word for sure.


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## DavidPF (Feb 28, 2021)

Ochazuke said:


> I admit to not having an understanding of western kitchen hierarchy. For me I tend to think of pros as falling in to two categories: employees or shokunin. But I don’t think that my division correlates to the cook/chef division. A shokunin can spend their whole life on one dish - it merely shows dedication to a craft. But I’m under the impression (though I may be mistaken) that western chefs are supposed to be competent in a variety of kitchen skills.


One part of it is a desire to copy the "chain of command" concept from the military, with a chef being something like a general, who makes a battle plan and gives orders. A system that specifies who gives orders and who obeys orders should prevent some types of conflict. 

Occasionally, it may even work as well as it was intended.


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