# Why jnats?



## bennyprofane (Jul 25, 2016)

This might be a dumb question but what makes jnats so amazing? The price difference to synthetics is huge. A Chosera, Gesshin or JNS can also give me an hair splitting sharpness, what makes jnats so amazing that it's worth spending ten times as much?


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 25, 2016)

Think of listening to vinyl compared to a MP3. There's a bit more to it than just "hair splitting sharpness"; the balance of tooth vs polish at high grit, I've heard that the edge retention and hardness of the steel at the edge can be improved on jnats compared to a similar grit on a synthetic.

There are also some options available that are more affordable some jnat finishers would probably be about the same as the 10k Chosera, possibly less? Yes there are some that are orders of magnitude more, but that goes for anything. 

I don't know personally, I'm at the edge of the rabbit hole and holding on for dear life lol. Hopefully a jnat aficionado can chime in


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## XooMG (Jul 26, 2016)

The ratio of things people know to the things people say is astonishingly small.

I like my naturals, but I would not use them if I didn't have a fetish for the smell, the (generally) splash-and-go usability, the misty polishing of wider bevels which is aesthetic rather than functional, and the general nostalgia of using a rock. The cost of participating in that can be horrific and not practically justifiable to serfs like me without serious delusion, but getting smaller or odd-cut stones can sometimes save you quite a bit of money.

Just don't be afraid of walking away if you aren't getting something you enjoy. It can be tempting to keep going, hunting for something that works "just right".


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## Nife (Jul 26, 2016)

Deleted Post


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## brainsausage (Jul 26, 2016)

XooMG said:


> The ratio of things people know to the things people say is astonishingly small



Thank you for that.


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## Krassi (Jul 26, 2016)

because they rock!

hiho @bennyprofane ! 
well other forum same opinion.. i totally like my finisher suitas.

They simply work.. its such a pleasure to use my big ohira and its just "spit and go" (just a breeze of water) black swarf, creamy feedback insane speed and magical sharpness... 
You cant say why but its working perfect in every aspect and gives you a big smile when ever i use it :biggrin:

I use JNS 1k,JNS Red Aoto and the creamy JNS 6k before the jnats .. you use the very consistent and fast coarse to medium Synthetics to prepare your blade for the finishing move 
thats what maxim is telling ("use the 6k before jnats", like shigefusa too who uses the JNS 6k) 
and watanabe too ("use the Kitayma before any jnat")

you can of course directly go from 1k to a suita (thats so amazing about those good smelling kyoto rocks), but i am now convinced that its better to use 2 Steps before
i tortured my crappy takeda banno bunko wunka whatever mini Bunka from JNS 400 and then the other JNS until normal Aka Renge Ohira (thats not even my finest one). The polishing, sharpness and finish is lovely.
for touch up i totally love em.. just put it next to the sink and its just some strokes and everything is awesome again..

the Jnat magic starts at 6k++ and below its actually mostly a waste of money and very hard to get really good and consistent clean medium or course jnats 
i still wonder if a Ikarashi is a good replacement for my synthetic red aoto... well its actually not as fun as i remembered.  (the red mudmaster 3000)

well enough jnatweirdo talk and seeya , daniel (well if been working for 21hours in a row so i am a bit braindead right now ) and i sound like Dr Gonzo from fear and loathing in las vegas right now! )

seeya, daniel


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## KimBronnum (Jul 26, 2016)

XooMG said:


> The ratio of things people know to the things people say is astonishingly small.
> 
> I like my naturals, but I would not use them if I didn't have a fetish for the smell, the (generally) splash-and-go usability, the misty polishing of wider bevels which is aesthetic rather than functional, and the general nostalgia of using a rock. The cost of participating in that can be horrific and not practically justifiable to serfs like me without serious delusion, but getting smaller or odd-cut stones can sometimes save you quite a bit of money.
> 
> Just don't be afraid of walking away if you aren't getting something you enjoy. It can be tempting to keep going, hunting for something that works "just right".



+1 to all of it


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## Matus (Jul 26, 2016)

KimBronnum said:


> +1 to all of it



make it +2


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## Badgertooth (Jul 26, 2016)

Because they're fun... And confounding at times.


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## bennyprofane (Jul 26, 2016)

Thank you so much, these are all great answers!

I have recently bought a very inexpensive Honyama stone (guessing it's around 8000) in the size 12x8x3 cm:

http://imgur.com/NrbzuwB.jpg

I haven't really used it so far but curious to find out if this stone will give me a bit of the joy that you all speak of.


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## alterwisser (Jul 26, 2016)

tjangula said:


> I don't know personally, I'm at the edge of the rabbit hole and holding on for dear life lol. Hopefully a jnat aficionado can chime in



That's exactly where I'm at... contemplating getting an entry level JNAT finishing stone to see what it's like. But scared sh**less of what that move might start....!!!


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## Matus (Jul 26, 2016)

I would say - as long as you decided to get one stone that fits your current line-up and do not buy next one before you learn to use the first one, than it may be a little easier not to fall down that hole.

Most certainly do not start with some $500 stone. Try to get a nice smaller (= cheaper) stone like Aoto Takashima or Hakka from a realiable source and give it a try.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 26, 2016)

Hi Benny,
besides what everybody have told you already, it seems to me that jnats leave a toothier edge, in general; it doesn't need so much flattening as it dishes much slower; it doesn't clog as synths do and its slowness when sharpening (especially on coarser jnats) make up by taking less metal from your blade (the burr tend to be smaller and deburr is much easier). It does take longer to sharpen (again this is true especially if you are using coarser jnats), but if you aren't sharpening professionally, that should be fine. If i had to choose just one jnat for gyutos, i would take a good ohira suita (finisher), but i still like to sharpen japanese carbon blades from start to finish only on jnats. Hard to argue this is better. One thing it is nice though is to be able to easily feel which blades sharpen quicker as the jnats are slower.


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## Sharpchef (Jul 26, 2016)

Simply because a Jnat edge is much better......

Same sharpness as maybe Naniwa Pro 10k but lasts at least 2 times longer, go for a Suita strata stone.

Greets Sebastian.


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## psfred (Jul 26, 2016)

Natural stones are either silicate (as in bedded chert, as my geologist brother says) or garnet in the case of coticles and some slates. Synthetic stones are usually aluminum oxide or some other material that is harder than the silica or garnet in natural stones, and is usually an angular crystal of some sort, as are diamonds.

Synthetic stones are highly uniform blocks of grit held in a binder of some sort, more or less hard. Natural stones are precipitated or transformed in situ from a variety of materials. Japanese stones in particular have particles that are sort of pie crust shaped in irregular stacks that break apart under friction, garnet is usually a multipointed spheriod particle although there are other shapes.

The result is that diamond, aluminum oxide, and things like boron nitride or silicon carbide make fairly deep but narrow scratches in steel as you sharpen, while natural stones tend to make wider, shallower scratches. The rounded and/or rolling particles also tend to work harden the edge rather than fracture it due to the lower localized pressure, giving you a different edge that usually seems to cut longer.

Synthetic stones are very consistent, natural stones are wildly variable. Needless to say, nats can be a real rabbit hole and you can drop some serious cash on them if you insist on large, regular stones as they are fairly rare.

Peter


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## Krassi (Jul 26, 2016)

i can only say yes to what sharpchef says! He was the one who got me hooked on jnats 
Hope your holiday will rock.. i nearly forgot that we are closing for 2 weeks too in our company starting next week  ..

get one good suita and not like i did around 5-6


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## panda (Jul 26, 2016)

why do people have preferences for specific brand/model of condoms? the feel baby!


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## foody518 (Jul 26, 2016)

If you've got a wide beveled knife, take that Honyama (if it seems like it'll slurry fairly readily) to it and see what happens


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## Cashn (Jul 27, 2016)

I like the idea of taking steel to rock and making a tool more usable. And they can be a lot more fun to sharpen on instead of synthetics, frustrating as well until you learn the stone. Just used my jnats after 2 months of using JNS 1k/6k and it reminded me why these hunks of rock are worth what I paid. The synthetics are great in a pinch but naturals are awesome to use if you enjoy making things sharp.


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## Asteger (Jul 27, 2016)

panda said:


> the feel baby!



That'd be the main thing with me, too. 

A few other reasons:

-If you explore more medium and coarser stones, not the finer layered stones that in my opinion people get a little too worked up about with knives, then they come from various places and have various histories, while synths come from a factory.
-Character, looks.
-They should last forever
-They're just simpler and easier, if not always faster. A stone, some water - maybe a slurry stone or something to work up slurry, depending - and that's it. What a drag flattening synths all the time, or having to worry about soaking. Actually, if you consider the extra attention synths need, there's an argument that they lose on the speed advantage.

As for edges and edge retention, it's really not an exaggeration to say I haven't really used synths enough to compare, aside from coarse synths. After not really using one for over a year, I remember being a bit freaked out by how fast metal wore away. Seemed like Sharpening for Dummies and too fast and easy. On the other hand, the huge burr took time to come off - must've been deep grooves in between the bits that were still attached - and quickly I imagined how my knife would be reduced to nothing in a couple of years with that sort of wear.


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## Krassi (Jul 27, 2016)

Hi Asteger!
Read a lot of your posts before i went hunting jnats! 
it was a great help for me.

i just used my stones today and went berserk and finished 10 knifes because it was so much fun and dondt forget the wellness factor  ..well i actually just wanted to sharpen my new ikeda.
the difference between the synths before and the suitas was amazing.

Its just that at 1000 my jns stone is unbeatable.
also the jns 6k is amazing like silk.. so @Cashn i can totally agree.. put the jns red aoto between and the mix rocks.

but the magic starts with my Ohira Brothers. i guess i never really sharpened my stuff really good before ... when i compare them to the glasstones with 8k and 16k .. its like comparing a dead piece of glass with the feedback of the german Telekom .. with the total opposite!
and i guess they will be on this planet still long after i am gone.


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## Matus (Jul 27, 2016)

... what would be the total opposite of a feedback of German Telekom?


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 27, 2016)

Watanabe has an interesting article (Exploring the Mystery of Natural Stone) at the bottom of this webpage: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/wetstone6.htm


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 28, 2016)

My naive, confused question is... are the really inexpensive ones (like the Binsui , Aka and Jo-Haku dick.biz offers. These look very inexpensive especially given these are not fragments) worth it or is that money better invested into similarly inexpensive but definitely useful synthetics?


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## Iggy (Jul 28, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> My naive, confused question is... are the really inexpensive ones (like the Binsui , Aka and Jo-Haku dick.biz offers. These look very inexpensive especially given these are not fragments) worth it or is that money better invested into similarly inexpensive but definitely useful synthetics?



All I can say is... tried the Binsui from dick and have the Binsui from Maksim... really no comparison! Maksims White Binsui is way more efficient smoother and homogenous.
Amakusa from dick is ok as far as my stone goes.
But... I prefer synth. stones for the more coarser grits

Small Honyama koppas can be good but it's kind of a lottery. Had three different stones of these so far (1 my own and 2 as gifts for friends) and all three where quite different in shape, looks and feel. Would only recommend these if one would like to try "some Jnat"


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## bennyprofane (Jul 28, 2016)

The Binsui , Aka and Jo-Haku are coarser stones and as far as Ive understood its the finer grits where jnats shine. Many combine coarser synths with finer jnats. Im wondering the same about the Honyama and Roszutec, they are both very inexpensive, how do they compare and are they even worth it compared to synths?

Edit: Didnt see your reply, Iggy.


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## Sharpchef (Jul 28, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> The Binsui , Aka and Jo-Haku are coarser stones and as far as Ive understood its the finer grits where jnats shine. Many combine coarser synths with finer jnats. Im wondering the same about the Honyama and Roszutec, they are both very inexpensive, how do they compare and are they even worth it compared to synths?
> 
> Edit: Didnt see your reply, Iggy.



There are good ones and bad ones. I bought big stones for less then 100 that are better then small ones for 300.... Companys like dictum buy a stock, and the stones vary very much, like natural stones do.

There are only a few natural stones out there capable for groundwork on knives, some are very hard to get some not, for grits up to 6000 you better stay synthetic.

Greets SEbastian.


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