# Need a good 3000 / 4000 grit stone for erasing 1000 naniwa pro or 2000 bester scratches on wide bevel



## milangravier (Oct 18, 2020)

Hello all ! (and here is more a polisher topic)

I am polishing the bevels of my knives (double bevel, mild steel + C130) with synthetic stones from 320 grit to 3000 grit then I go Naturals with Natsuya and Mikawa, then finer naturals. One of my issues thoses days is that Natsuya (that I really like if 2000 scratches are erased) is not powerful enough to erase 2000 grit Bester scratches (which I like to use), so I need a synthetic 3000 or 4000 to erase them before going to Naturals.
For now, I tried : Naniwa pro 3000 (too soft, too sticky, but really fast erasing the scratches, it's just not a joy to use for me), Suehiro Cerax 3000 (fast enough to erase the scratches too but I get some bad scratches with it if the bevel is not perfect, feeling is so so with this stone), 4000 Bester (not fast enough), 4000 Morihei (not fast enough).
Do you have any advises ?

Have a good day/evening


----------



## M1k3 (Oct 18, 2020)

Shapton Glass 3k or 4k? The 3k will load a little less than the 4k, not that the 4k is bad. Or the HC line. They're a little softer and polish a little finer than the HR line.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 18, 2020)

Ok, did not test shapton glass on those grits (only use 320 and 500). That could work, but if I can find cheaper/bigger stones, I think I would prefer, but yes they are one option


----------



## M1k3 (Oct 18, 2020)

Sigma 3k or Naniwa Hayabusa 4k?


----------



## JDC (Oct 18, 2020)

JNS Synthetic Red Aoto if muddy stones work for you.

Shapton glass high carbon 4000 can be great in the hard stone category. This high carbon line gives much better polish than the HR.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 18, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Sigma 3k or Naniwa Hayabusa 4k?


Sorry, but did you try those stones for polishing bevels? I am looking for some feedbacks more than the list of 3K / 4K stones available.
Can you tell me more about those sigma and hayabusa stones ?


----------



## milangravier (Oct 18, 2020)

JDC said:


> JNS Synthetic Red Aoto if muddy stones work for you.
> 
> Shapton glass high carbon 4000 can be great in the hard stone category. This high carbon line gives much better polish than the HR.


I forget about talking about JNS red Aoto : I tried it, and... maybe I don't know how to use it but it makes scratches, no kasumi, and doesn't erase 2000 grit bester scratches. So did not work for me.

Second mention about shapton glass, ok, maybe that should lead to a try! Thanks


----------



## JDC (Oct 18, 2020)

milangravier said:


> I forget about talking about JNS red Aoto : I tried it, and... maybe I don't know how to use it but it makes scratches, no kasumi, and doesn't erase 2000 grit bester scratches. So did not work for me.
> 
> Second mention about shapton glass, ok, maybe that should lead to a try! Thanks



Really? My synthetic red aoto can remove 1k scratches from shapton pro. It removes 2k shapton pro scratches much faster though, like in a few strokes. 

I haven't tried the HC 4k, but the HC 6k I have is amazing, removes 2k scratches with a bit effort, but the mirror on the core is better than glass 30000 HR.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 18, 2020)

I really need to give it a second chance to the Jns 3000, but for now it was not working as I wanted. It's a bit muddy but not that much, mine is not that a soft stone (it is in water for weeks or months).
And I may try HC shapton glass, thanks


----------



## JDC (Oct 18, 2020)

milangravier said:


> mine is not that a soft stone (it is in water for weeks or months)


I just use mine as a splash and go, and it worked well. Did you try to force a diamond slurry?


----------



## milangravier (Oct 18, 2020)

JDC said:


> I just use mine as a splash and go, and it worked well. Did you try to force a diamond slurry?


yes sure I did work with it after atoma slurry was made... but, really I did not find it that powerful, far less than naniwa pro 3000, but I am gonna give it another try tomorow


----------



## da_mich* (Oct 18, 2020)

I love the Suehiro Rika 5k finish. In my opinion it has the best finish of all synthetic stones in my collection.


----------



## M1k3 (Oct 18, 2020)

milangravier said:


> Sorry, but did you try those stones for polishing bevels? I am looking for some feedbacks more than the list of 3K / 4K stones available.
> Can you tell me more about those sigma and hayabusa stones ?


I've used them for sharpening, not polishing bevels. Glass 4k I've used extensively.

Wasn't just throwing out names of random stones.

Good day.


----------



## zizirex (Oct 19, 2020)

I have tried Kensho Kei 3000, really polish to almost mirror with the core and crazy contrast. the feedback is not bad, I don't know how good is the edge, but the polish is really nice.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 19, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I've used them for sharpening, not polishing bevels. Glass 4k I've used extensively.
> 
> Wasn't just throwing out names of random stones.
> 
> Good day.


Sorry again, but I try to get info as precise as I can on this because I have tested a bunch of stones now and would like some advise before spending more money. So I understand you tried the sigma 3k and Naniwa hayabusa 4K but was it for polishing bevels ? Could you give me more details on how they work ? How Hayabusa is different from Naniwa pro/chosera ? Never try sigma at all, can be a try but I would like a polisher point of view
Thanks for helping


----------



## milangravier (Oct 19, 2020)

zizirex said:


> I have tried Kensho Kei 3000, really polish to almost mirror with the core and crazy contrast. the feedback is not bad, I don't know how good is the edge, but the polish is really nice.


That one looks hard to find ! Any clue to get it ?


----------



## Qapla' (Oct 19, 2020)

milangravier said:


> That one looks hard to find ! Any clue to get it ?


Probably from Canada eh. 









Kensho Kei Sharpening Stone







knifewear.com





This shop also has the series but not the 3000 stone of that line:








Kensho Kei Whetstone #6000


Japanese Knife Whetstone Water Stone Shop



www.fineedgecutlery.net


----------



## milangravier (Oct 19, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> Probably from Canada eh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's all Sold out...


----------



## kayman67 (Oct 19, 2020)

Hayabusa maybe or even Rika.


M1k3 said:


> Sigma 3k or Naniwa Hayabusa 4k?



I was thinking about those (I have both), but he said that Naniwa Professional 3000 was too soft. These are softer. 
But reading more today, seems like there is a need for a stone to suit a particular technique, rather than how stones perform in general.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 19, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Hayabusa maybe or even Rika.
> 
> 
> I was thinking about those (I have both), but he said that Naniwa Professional 3000 was too soft. These are softer.
> But reading more today, seems like there is a need for a stone to suit a particular technique, rather than how stones perform in general.


Hi, 
About Naniwa pro, softness is not what I like the less, I think mainly it is its stickyness. If I am not always moving putting very light pressure, adding water at the right moment, my blade is glued to it ! It works well when you succeed to make it work but I am looking for something easier to work with. I got no problem with muddy soft stone as soon as they don't stick too much, too quickly.
Hayabusa 4K I never heard of ? How does it compare ?
Rika ? 5000K ? I think I got this stone but did not use it for polishing.
Sigma 3K : how is it ? hard/soft ? making kasumi/bright finish ?


----------



## zizirex (Oct 19, 2020)

milangravier said:


> That one looks hard to find ! Any clue to get it ?


Yeah Knifewear doesn't have it in stock now. You could go to Nobori Hamono but you need to contact them directly.









研承 継（けい） #3000〜#10000-のぼり刃物店オンラインショップ


国産高純度研磨材・低温焼成【研承 継】 レジノイド製法 滑らかな研ぎ感の使いやすい砥石です。 ご使用時に水をかけてお使いください。 サイズ：205×75×25 ※手作業での加工を行っているため、サイズには多少の差があります。 ※焼成しているため、硬さに若干の差があります。 ※水に浸けたままでも変質はありませんが、凍てると割れますのでご注意ください。 ※価格は仕様により異なります。 商品リストからご希望の商品をご選択ください。 ◆研承　継 ◇粒度 価格 ・#3000　￥6,600 ・#6000　￥7,200 ・#8000　￥8,200 ・#10000 ￥9,400...




noborihamono.shop





The Old site also has bad UX where if it's red means it's in stock while green is sold out.


----------



## JDC (Oct 19, 2020)

How many stones do you want to use between 1k and naturals? I think it’s pretty safe to do 1k -> 2k -> 4K glass HC, it will give you more efficiency than jumping from 2k to 6k HC like I do. My goal was a mirrored core, and I don’t sharpen as frequently as you do, so 6k made more sense to me.


----------



## kayman67 (Oct 19, 2020)

Hayabusa is rather similar to Naniwa Professional 3000, but softer. If you don't manage to get it going, it will load and stick for a while. Like I've said, it's more of a technique thing. 
Sigma should be more forgiving, if properly soaked before using. Has a haze finish, not bright polish. 
Rika also needs some soaking and will need some surface maintenance eventually, but should be OK. Gives a brighter finish (more like semi) in general. 
JNS 6000 might be an option, but again, softer stone. Very homogeneous behaviour, though.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 19, 2020)

JDC said:


> How many stones do you want to use between 1k and naturals? I think it’s pretty safe to do 1k -> 2k -> 4K glass HC, it will give you more efficiency than jumping from 2k to 6k HC like I do. My goal was a mirrored core, and I don’t sharpen as frequently as you do, so 6k made more sense to me.


Hello, 
Natsuya is about 2000 grit. My goal is to do this progression : Naniwa pro 1000 or Bester 2000 --> 3000/4000 grit (to erase previous scratches) --> Natsuya


----------



## milangravier (Oct 19, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Hayabusa is rather similar to Naniwa Professional 3000, but softer. If you don't manage to get it going, it will load and stick for a while. Like I've said, it's more of a technique thing.
> Sigma should be more forgiving, if properly soaked before using. Has a haze finish, not bright polish.
> Rika also needs some soaking and will need some surface maintenance eventually, but should be OK. Gives a brighter finish (more like semi) in general.
> JNS 6000 might be an option, but again, softer stone. Very homogeneous behaviour, though.


Thanks for all those info.
It's looking like Sigma 3000 could be a good stone in my case. I will test Rika 5000. JNS 6000 is good stone but it doesn't erase bester 2000 scratches (they might be bigger scratches than the name tell) quickly enough for me.


----------



## Knife2meatu (Oct 19, 2020)

Sigma Select II 3k scratches are coarser deeper than Bester 2k scratches, in my informed opinion.


----------



## JDC (Oct 19, 2020)

I've heard that Sigma Select II 6k leaves a toothy edge, not surprised if 3k has significant scratches...


----------



## JDC (Oct 19, 2020)

My current full progression is: dmt 220 -> dmt 325 -> shapton pro 1000 -> shapton pro 2000 -> shapton glass HC 6000 -> Ohira Uchigumori Hato (focus on cladding) -> Okudo Shiro Suita (focus on core)

An example finish:


----------



## domrun (Oct 20, 2020)

JDC said:


> I haven't tried the HC 4k, but the HC 6k I have is amazing, removes 2k scratches with a bit effort, but the mirror on the core is better than glass 30000 HR.


Really !
A little off topic but I doubt that a 2.45 micron synth stone could give best mirroring result on core than a 0.49 micron one.
Very surprised by this but very interested because I was planning to buy a 30,000 thinking it could be the ultimate synth for mirroring core steel.


----------



## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

Knife2meatu said:


> Sigma Select II 3k scratches are coarser deeper than Bester 2k scratches, in my informed opinion.



In this progression Naniwa 220 (thinning), Sigma S2 1000 and 3000 I got no scratches whatsoever, but a very homogeneous matte haze finish. Do you soak, add enough water and use slurry?


----------



## JDC (Oct 20, 2020)

domrun said:


> Really !
> A little off topic but I doubt that a 2.45 micron synth stone could give best mirroring result on core than a 0.49 micron one.
> Very surprised by this but very interested because I was planning to buy a 30,000 thinking it could be the ultimate synth for mirroring core steel.


Yeah, I wasn't convinced to buy it until consulted with several kind gentlemen.
In my previous post, the shapton HC 6k was used to initiate the mirror, and Okudo suita was to convert tiny scratches to JNat pattern, so you see no visible scratches (but do have a polished frosted JNat finish at one specific light angle). 

My 30000 was from the shapton seven series, 0.44 micron. It gives a total mirror, but the problem is, at the same specific light angle, you'll see crazy scratches (like ~ 1000 grit). That's totally unacceptable. I did much trial and error, and convinced that the scratches are from the 0.44. Glad I didn't waste too much money...

HC 6k still has some scratches, but no where as bad as the 0.44, easily erasable by the suita. 

Not sure if the full sized 30000 glass stone performs the same though.


----------



## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

domrun said:


> Really !
> A little off topic but I doubt that a 2.45 micron synth stone could give best mirroring result on core than a 0.49 micron one.
> Very surprised by this but very interested because I was planning to buy a 30,000 thinking it could be the ultimate synth for mirroring core steel.


After something like Naniwa Super Stone 10000 or Sigma 13000, you gain more with a polishing compound and cloth, if you need more.


----------



## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

JDC said:


> Yeah, I wasn't convinced to buy it until consulted with several kind gentlemen.
> In my previous post, the shapton HC 6k was used to initiate the mirror, and Okudo suita was to convert tiny scratches to JNat pattern, so you see no visible scratches (but do have a polished frosted JNat finish at one specific light angle).
> 
> My 30000 was from the shapton seven series, 0.44 micron. It gives a total mirror, but the problem is, at the same specific light angle, you'll see crazy scratches (like ~ 1000 grit). That's totally unacceptable. I did much trial and error, and convinced that the scratches are from the 0.44. Glad I didn't waste too much money...
> ...



It does. But the Pro 30k is better in this regard. Also much more expensive. 

If you guys pursue a full synthetic mirror edge, the best possible polish would be with a Suehiro progression, but the stones are very expensive. I think all of them are about 750$(?).


----------



## JDC (Oct 20, 2020)

Glad to know  Yeah Pro 30k is much more expensive, unless you find a reasonable dealer, it can be close to what glass 30k costs. 

I don't need to go any further from my current mirror, but, listen to @kayman67 is a wise choice if you go that route.


----------



## thebradleycrew (Oct 20, 2020)

@milangravier - have you tried naturals in that 3/4k range to remove the 2k scratches? I suspect you could find a good, large stone to accomplish that if you so desired.


----------



## Knife2meatu (Oct 20, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> In this progression Naniwa 220 (thinning), Sigma S2 1000 and 3000 I got no scratches whatsoever, but a very homogeneous matte haze finish. Do you soak, add enough water and use slurry?


10 minute soak, used with slurry and extra water. I'm not seeing what you're seeing, I may have to mess around with it more, later. I'm not interested in doing any proper, prolonged soaking with this stone at the moment, however, so that might influence my results.


----------



## Alder26 (Oct 20, 2020)

milangravier said:


> Thanks for all those info.
> It's looking like Sigma 3000 could be a good stone in my case. I will test Rika 5000. JNS 6000 is good stone but it doesn't erase bester 2000 scratches (they might be bigger scratches than the name tell) quickly enough for me.


I would suggest the rika 5k. It dishes faster than the chosera 3k, but it doesn't have the sticky gummy feeling that the cholera can have. Have you considered an Aizu or Aoto? I tend to find that after a 2k an Aizu is the fastest way to set up a good Kasumi


----------



## Alder26 (Oct 20, 2020)

Arashiyama 6k is very fast and pleasant to work with aswell if it’s permanently soaked. Definitely capable of removing 2k scratches pretty fast


----------



## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

I reinforce the opinion that after a certain grit ( around 8-12k, sometimes could even be lower) , if there are no deep scratches to buff out, a polishing compound and some elbow grease is best choice. And way less frustrating.


Knife2meatu said:


> 10 minute soak, used with slurry and extra water. I'm not seeing what you're seeing, I may have to mess around with it more, later. I'm not interested in doing any proper, prolonged soaking with this stone at the moment, however, so that might influence my results.



I keep them in water as long as I work. With 1000 this makes a huge difference. At least 30 minutes are needed for it to perform best. But 3000 and 10000 also perform much better. 
I imagine other things matter to some extent. I have this tendency to adapt more to what stones can do than the other way around, I guess.


----------



## kayman67 (Oct 20, 2020)

Also, maybe worth mentioning, my stones are quite old. If any kind of changes were made, might influence the outcome. And sometimes manufacturers do change things without notice.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 20, 2020)

thebradleycrew said:


> @milangravier - have you tried naturals in that 3/4k range to remove the 2k scratches? I suspect you could find a good, large stone to accomplish that if you so desired.


Hi, 
I tried Natsuya and Aizu, they are great stones but I would prefer erasing the 1000/2000 grit scratches before use them because in my experience they are a bit slower (also a bit thinner to me than the grit we attach to them) than synthetic and can miss some scratches that will come to my eyes with finer natural stones. 
I am gonna try a Kaisei soon (that is 1000 grit natural stone) and it may solve the thing quite elegantly but I am also looking for a good solution in the set up Naniwa pro 400/Shapton glass 500 --> Naniwa pro 1000/Bester 2000 ---> 3000/4000 grit ----> Natsuya ----> Finer natural stones.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 20, 2020)

milangravier said:


> Hi,
> I tried Natsuya and Aizu, they are great stones but I would prefer erasing the 1000/2000 grit scratches before use them because in my experience they are a bit slower (also a bit thinner to me than the grit we attach to them) than synthetic and can miss some scratches that will come to my eyes with finer natural stones.
> I am gonna try a Kaisei soon (that is 1000 grit natural stone) and it may solve the thing quite elegantly but I am also looking for a good solution in the set up Naniwa pro 400/Shapton glass 500 --> Naniwa pro 1000/Bester 2000 ---> 3000/4000 grit ----> Natsuya ----> Finer natural stones.


Also just try 2 Aoto and was not convinced with them.
I am still able to work with what I got but I am looking for some improvments in the erasing 1000 grit part of my progression


----------



## spaceconvoy (Oct 20, 2020)

My aoto has too wide a grit range to be useful this way, maybe yours is similar. It's great for edges, but will leave some deeper scratches than my GS500.


----------



## Matus (Oct 20, 2020)

Friend of mine uses Sigma 6000 and gets a very even finish. Unless I am mistaken he uses it directly after 1k Sigma (or 1k Shapton Pro). But he is also very skilled ...


----------



## Up_dog128 (Oct 20, 2020)

I'm a bit surprised that the bester 4k isn't fast enough for you; I can usually remove 2k scratches with that stone in 60-90 seconds. I feel like the bester is faster than my SG 4k (hr) in this regard, but maybe I need to go play around with it to confirm this.
If you decide to go there naturals route, you might consider a white amakusa. They are quite cheap, and in my admittedly limited experience, the scratch pattern from this stone is finer than my aizu or aoto


----------



## milangravier (Oct 21, 2020)

Up_dog128 said:


> I'm a bit surprised that the bester 4k isn't fast enough for you; I can usually remove 2k scratches with that stone in 60-90 seconds. I feel like the bester is faster than my SG 4k (hr) in this regard, but maybe I need to go play around with it to confirm this.
> If you decide to go there naturals route, you might consider a white amakusa. They are quite cheap, and in my admittedly limited experience, the scratch pattern from this stone is finer than my aizu or aoto


There gonna be tests to confirm all my feelings, because sometimes you think something don't work but it's just very different. I need this week to take some time and do a 2000 bester vs all my 3000/4000 grit. I will update the post if I find any stone that's working particulary great. I am gonna try to find some time today


----------



## JDC (Oct 21, 2020)

milangravier said:


> There gonna be tests to confirm all my feelings, because sometimes you think something don't work but it's just very different. I need this week to take some time and do a 2000 bester vs all my 3000/4000 grit. I will update the post if I find any stone that's working particulary great. I am gonna try to find some time today


In the meantime, keep knives pouring please


----------



## zizirex (Oct 21, 2020)

milangravier said:


> There gonna be tests to confirm all my feelings, because sometimes you think something don't work but it's just very different. I need this week to take some time and do a 2000 bester vs all my 3000/4000 grit. I will update the post if I find any stone that's working particulary great. I am gonna try to find some time today


Have you checked Shapton Pro 2000? does it finish nicer than Bester 2k? Or have you played around with Nagura stone? sometimes some slurry could help polish the knife nicely.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 21, 2020)

zizirex said:


> Have you checked Shapton Pro 2000? does it finish nicer than Bester 2k? Or have you played around with Nagura stone? sometimes some slurry could help polish the knife nicely.


No, did not try it. I got only Shapton pro 5000 in that brand, nice stone but don't use it so much as I prefer going naturals earlier. 

I just did the begginning of a test : 
Test knife is 185mm petty, bevel is about 12/13mm wide. san mai Mild steel + C130 as usual.
Disclaimer : it's very difficult to get true and honest information during the test, the two sides of the blades are slightly differents and I am working ambidextrious so maybe left hand is not as strong as right hand. 
The blade is grinded on my 36 grit whetsone wheel, then I go on 120 grit sand belt to get even & flat before goind to stones.

First fight : JNS 400 (right side) vs Naniwa Pro 400 (left side) : JNS wins, 11 minutes to erase 120 grit scratches and form the bevel right in thickness and geometry. Naniwa pro 400 for the same job took me 20 minutes.
This is going on contrary than my previous test ! I think right side had to be cleaner than left one before the stones. But my feelings tell me JNS wins anyway : harder stone so to me better feedback, very good abrasion (bevel get light kasumi (full of scratches of course)), not as much mud so I am not always cleaning it and it doesn't slowing me down. I had to flattend naniwa at mid period, I didn't with JNS. Naniwa feel more abrasive and soft, but JNS was working really fast and the figures can't be that wrong, it took me nearly two times less with JNS.

Second fight : Bester 2000 (right side) vs Naniwa pro 1000 (left side) : Bester wins with one minute less (9 minutes vs 10 minutes). To my feelings Naniwa was maybe a bit faster because there were more job to do on the left side. Naniwa is really far more softer than Bester which is hard stone. Scratches do look finer with Naniwa than the Bester ones. So they are almost equality but Naniwa is little bit faster and finer scratches vs Bester is doing clear kasumi (like it because you can see easier even on clad if you erase the previous scratches) and is harder (like it for the feedback and for keeping the stone flat on my bevel easily).

Third fight : Natsuya (right) vs Natsuya (left) : just to see if Natsuya can erase the 1000/2000 scratches and how much times it takes with Natsuya to erase Bester vs Naniwa scratches. Natsuya took me 15 minutes to erase all Naniwa 1000 scratches and get nice clean bevel. I try for about 11 minutes to erase Bester scratches with Natsuya and it was not working : I could erase most of it but there were 30% of scratches that were too deep to clean them with Natsuya. I think it could took me about.... 25 maybe 30 minutes if I wished to erase those deeper scratches. So clearly Naniwa 1000 makes shallower scratches than Bester 2000. Now, my final thought about this fight is that I wish my Natsuya could be slightly coarser so I can be really confident at erasing any 1000 scratches coming from Naniwa or Bester. In both case, to get the guaranty that all 1000 scratches (even Naniwa ones) are erased before going finer in grain, I think I would use a stone in between, fore Natsuya, just to be sure scratches are all erased and can be confident to go Natsuya and then whatever stone I want to use without discovering any 1000 grit scratches.

This afternoon (it is about 1:30PM in France) I will make the fight between the different stones I got to erase 1000 grit scratches. I will do the test with Bester scratches on the blade (because I prefer harder stones vs Naniwa 1000) and anyway if I can erase Bester 2000, it means I can erase Naniwa 1000.
Give you some news soon,


----------



## milangravier (Oct 21, 2020)

Hello again.
Ok here is the next step of my little stones test.
Each time before testing a stone, I grind the bevel with Bester 2000, then use the 3000/4000 grit stone that I want to test, then use Natsuya to confirm all scratches are erased and that the scratches from the stones tested are not too deep for Natsuya.
I have tested 5 stones : Cerax 3000, Bester 4000, JNS 3000, Rika 5000, Naniwa 3000.
Winners are Cerax 3000, Rika 5000 and Naniwa 3000. With those 3 stones I was able to erase easily Bester 2000 scratches within 5 minutes (Winner is even Rika 5000, only 2 minutes to erase Bester 2000!). Naniwa 3000 leaves the best clean finish, but I really don't like that I need to deal with it's stickyness and softness. Cerax 3000 is really fast but leaves the worst finish, like very bright scratches in the middle of the dark clad. The feeling is not so nice because very quickly I can feel some particules that scratch the clad, can't really avoid that they appear. Rika 5000 was fastest and almost good finish, a bit like cerax 3000 with bright scratches but far less. That was the stone I prefer during the test. At the end, it took me about 3 minutes to clean those 3 stones with the Natsuya.
Loosers are Bester 4000 and JNS 3000 : after 5 minutes I could see I would never erase the bester 2000 scratches quickly, there is still a lot and they look too deep to be able to erase them with those stones. Bester 4000 give a nice finish, nice feeling, nearly mirror core, but not powerful enough in front bester 2000 scratches. JNS 3000 is not powerful enough too, finish is more finely scratched, satin, don't really like using the stone and the finish it gives. I did test both those stones with atoma 140 slurry but I did not get any enough power to do the job.

So I am gonna do 2 knives full polishing session with the set : JNS 400, Bester 2000, Rika 5000, Natsuya and Finishing natural stone. And will try to confirm this little test.

Thanks again to all the people for the help you gave me, hope this little test can give you back some info.


----------



## JDC (Oct 21, 2020)

That sounds like a fair test! Will you try shapton pro 5000 also?


----------



## inferno (Oct 21, 2020)

I have done lots of polishing up to mirror polish.
from that hard 2k you have. i guess its the pink one? i have the pink bester 2k. you could try the naniwa pro 2k. it starts out as as a 2k, but very quickly it turns finer and finishes at about 3k.

other alternatives are the glass 3k and 4k. the 3k is a bit faster than the 4k. and the 4k is finer. after the 4k i usually go straight to the 8k shapton pro. its a very fast stone for its grit. then up to any of my 12k's.

you could also try using another 2k that creates shallower scratches. shapton pro/glass, naniwa pro, juuma (soaker, this one is very similar to the pink bester 2k), king hyper 2k (soaker).

another soaker that you might or might not like is the naniwa hibiki 3k. its hard and release no abrasive. similar to juumas and bester 2k.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 22, 2020)

JDC said:


> That sounds like a fair test! Will you try shapton pro 5000 also?


I think I tested it before and it was not powerful enough (just too fine I would say) to erase bester 2000 scratches. Just to be cleat, Rika 5000 can do it but to me when I look at the finish the Rika leaves, it is not a 5000 grit, it is 3000 grit at best. 
If I got some time I will do the test with shapton pro 5000 to be sure.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 22, 2020)

inferno said:


> I have done lots of polishing up to mirror polish.
> from that hard 2k you have. i guess its the pink one? i have the pink bester 2k. you could try the naniwa pro 2k. it starts out as as a 2k, but very quickly it turns finer and finishes at about 3k.
> 
> other alternatives are the glass 3k and 4k. the 3k is a bit faster than the 4k. and the 4k is finer. after the 4k i usually go straight to the 8k shapton pro. its a very fast stone for its grit. then up to any of my 12k's.
> ...


Hi! Thanks for this help. 
Yes I got 2K light Pink Bester. It got some inconvenient but it is really fast and no dishing stone, just an abrasive tool. Do you advise to to Bester 2000 then Naniwa pro 2000 ?
I will try shapton glass in those range grit because a lot of advises are going this way.
Shapton pro 2000 is hard or soft ? Naniwa pro 2000 must be soft no ?(1000 and 3000 are), Juuma I never try (similar to Bester 2000 but finer scratches ?), I do have King hyper 2000, few month ago I did not like it because it was behaving like cerax 3000 : it is nice and smooth be then you get tiny particules that scratch the clad (the come whatever I do), and then you don't get a nice finish. Bue maybe, similar to cerax 3000, the finish is not that important as I will clean it with the next stone... In the 1000/2000 grit range I think it's good to get a clear light finish so you can see all the coarse work is erased.


----------



## inferno (Oct 22, 2020)

milangravier said:


> Hi! Thanks for this help.
> Yes I got 2K light Pink Bester. It got some inconvenient but it is really fast and no dishing stone, just an abrasive tool. Do you advise to to Bester 2000 then Naniwa pro 2000 ?
> I will try shapton glass in those range grit because a lot of advises are going this way.
> Shapton pro 2000 is hard or soft ? Naniwa pro 2000 must be soft no ?(1000 and 3000 are), Juuma I never try (similar to Bester 2000 but finer scratches ?), I do have King hyper 2000, few month ago I did not like it because it was behaving like cerax 3000 : it is nice and smooth be then you get tiny particules that scratch the clad (the come whatever I do), and then you don't get a nice finish. Bue maybe, similar to cerax 3000, the finish is not that important as I will clean it with the next stone... In the 1000/2000 grit range I think it's good to get a clear light finish so you can see all the coarse work is erased.



the naniwa pro 2k would probably be good for that job. since it starts out coarse and then turn fine. you might not even need the bester then. the stone is hard but it feels soft. but it really isn't soft at all. the naniwa pro2k makes a very good kasumi without scratches. very good contrast. the 800 is also very good for this.

shapton pro (all of them) feel hard and are hard.

personally when i do a full progression i want to get done as quickly as possible so for me its usually something like this:
shapton pro 220
glass 500
naniwa pro 800 (for contrast) / shapton pro 1k (polished)
naniwa pro 2k (contrast) / shapton 2k pro (polished)
glass 4k
pro 8k
finisher 10-12k.

its also possible to jump from 1k to 3k glass then 6k glass then 12k.

i only need to spend a minute or so from 2k and up on each stone.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

i did a little test here. testing stone speed.
also a test of the juumas.






testing abrasion rate (testing stone speed)


i wanted to see how much steel my some of my stones remove, so i tested that. test subject was a stainless clad aus-8 deba that i had done some destructive tests with. i did 300 "cycles" on each stone and then simply weighed the blade inbetween. 1 cycle = 1 forward and 1 backward stroke. the...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









juuma stones?


anyone tried these? are these soakers or splash and go? quality?




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## JDC (Oct 22, 2020)

milangravier said:


> Hi! Thanks for this help.
> Yes I got 2K light Pink Bester. It got some inconvenient but it is really fast and no dishing stone, just an abrasive tool. Do you advise to to Bester 2000 then Naniwa pro 2000 ?
> I will try shapton glass in those range grit because a lot of advises are going this way.
> Shapton pro 2000 is hard or soft ? Naniwa pro 2000 must be soft no ?(1000 and 3000 are), Juuma I never try (similar to Bester 2000 but finer scratches ?), I do have King hyper 2000, few month ago I did not like it because it was behaving like cerax 3000 : it is nice and smooth be then you get tiny particules that scratch the clad (the come whatever I do), and then you don't get a nice finish. Bue maybe, similar to cerax 3000, the finish is not that important as I will clean it with the next stone... In the 1000/2000 grit range I think it's good to get a clear light finish so you can see all the coarse work is erased.



The shapton pro 2000 is not a soft stone to my judgement, however, it is a very creamy and smooth stone. It erases shapton pro 1000 (which is a coarser stone than your naniwa pro 1000) scratches easily. This stone is considered to be equivalent to the AI 2000 which Shinichi Watanabe uses in his progression.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 27, 2020)

Thanks for adding those advises. It looks like the Bester 2000 I like is good to eat metal but not that good in a progression because scratches can be deep. I may try shapton pro 2K or Naniwa pro 2K.

I have done two full progression with the set JNS 400 -> Bester 2000 -> Rika 5000 / Cerax 3000 -> Natsuya -> Finer stones since my test
JNS 400 is great stone, work similar to Shapton glass 500, tad coarser. Bester works great to erase the previous scratches, but maybe make deep scratches... Then I tried Rika and it was not that good... Too much scratches/grits appearing while polishing. I use mainly Cerax 3000 and it was ok but it's not really my style of stones.

I just received Gesshin 220 / 400 / 2000 / 4000 and I am doing some test with them. I mostly try 2000 and 4000. 2000 is similar to my bester but it feels finer. 4000 is same type, hard stone, very fast. I can fast enough erase 2K scratches, but main problem with those stones is that scratches can be deep (maybe because they are so abrasive), so I am not sure Natsuya can erase easily those 4K scratches from Gesshin. But it was very quick test, I need to work on it a bit more.


----------



## JDC (Oct 27, 2020)

I have gesshin 4000 which is my main edge stone. I tried it in my wide bevel progression, but probably won't do that again...


----------



## JBroida (Oct 27, 2020)

yeah... its a bit too firm for my taste for that as well... but I've certainly done it a few times


----------



## spaceconvoy (Oct 28, 2020)

I like the Morihei 4000 on wide bevels, for a synthetic stone. Though if I was serious about wide bevel polishing I'd get deeper into natural


----------



## milangravier (Oct 28, 2020)

JBroida said:


> yeah... its a bit too firm for my taste for that as well... but I've certainly done it a few times


Yes it is firm, but that's not a bad thing for me as I want control. For sure this is maybe not the best 4K stone for convex bevels, but Natsuya is hard too and would not be the best for convex either. When talking about stone for polishing, some people would like that each stone in the progression do a nice polishing job. But I don't need good polishing properties at 4K synthetic if my goal is to use at least 3 natural stones after from mid grit to finishing stone. I think the 4K could work for me for my flat bevels, I just need to confirm that 4K scratches comming from this stone can be erased by Natsuya. If it does... that's all good for me.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 28, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I like the Morihei 4000 on wide bevels, for a synthetic stone. Though if I was serious about wide bevel polishing I'd get deeper into natural


I tried again Morihei 4000 yesterday. I don't know what is wrong with me or with the stone but it looks like impossible to get a nice finish (I thought it was made for that). All I get is very uneven finish with bright scratches killing what could be a ok Kasumi. Core don't get mirror or any brighter. Do you have any clue how to use this stone ? Permasoak maybe ?
I tried again Shapton pro 5000 also, it is doing similar as Morihei 4000. ****** finish. It might be good on a honyaki.. but on San mai I did not understand how they work yet.


----------



## zizirex (Oct 28, 2020)

milangravier said:


> I tried again Morihei 4000 yesterday. I don't know what is wrong with me or with the stone but it looks like impossible to get a nice finish (I thought it was made for that). All I get is very uneven finish with bright scratches killing what could be a ok Kasumi. Core don't get mirror or any brighter. Do you have any clue how to use this stone ? Permasoak maybe ?
> I tried again Shapton pro 5000 also, it is doing similar as Morihei 4000. ****** finish. It might be good on a honyaki.. but on San mai I did not understand how they work yet.


that's weird, I have seen the Morihei Hi 4000 finishes. it creates very even finishes and a nice contrast of hagane and jigane. did you use the slurry/mud of the stone to help you polish? I have the 6K and it creates a very nice mirror polish on Core with nice dark semi polish cladding.


----------



## kayman67 (Oct 28, 2020)

Well. I see this pretty often, even around here and it's nothing wrong with it really, but there are some drawbacks. What you need is a stone that will adapt and suit your style and needs. That's all good, but since it's rather far from others, will require a lot of buying and eventually selling, until you find the right combos. It might get somewhat frustrating along the way.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 28, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Well. I see this pretty often, even around here and it's nothing wrong with it really, but there are some drawbacks. What you need is a stone that will adapt and suit your style and needs. That's all good, but since it's rather far from others, will require a lot of buying and eventually selling, until you find the right combos. It might get somewhat frustrating along the way.


Sorry, what I said you can see pretty often ? I am not understanding you point..


----------



## spaceconvoy (Oct 28, 2020)

I had to try again just to make sure I wasn't crazy. I don't think it needs permasoaking, seems pretty saturated after a minute under the faucet, then feels like it sweats water. I see what you mean about getting bright streaks, and I think they're caused by the mud (or the swarf in the mud). I got much better results by using it clean and wiping away any built-up mud.


----------



## milangravier (Oct 28, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> View attachment 100654
> 
> I had to try again just to make sure I wasn't crazy. I don't think it needs permasoaking, seems pretty saturated after a minute under the faucet, then feels like it sweats water. I see what you mean about getting bright streaks, and I think they're caused by the mud (or the swarf in the mud). I got much better results by using it clean and wiping away any built-up mud.


Yes that's better finish than what I get yesterday. Will try again with no mud to see what I get. Thanks


----------



## kayman67 (Oct 28, 2020)

milangravier said:


> Sorry, what I said you can see pretty often ? I am not understanding you point..


That while most stones work for most people, they don't for every single need or expectation. But because most people fall into a large category, it's really hard to get suggestions that would immediately work in particular scenarios. 
This even if it's more common to use stones that address needs directly, rather than adjusting to the best of their capabilities. Thus making the job a lot more complicated.


----------



## Robert Lavacca (Nov 3, 2020)

Any updates? I really need to close some gaps on my synthetic line up. I was literally about to purchase the morihei 4000. I need something in the 2-4k range before my naturals as well. I have the gesshin 4000 myself. I love it for finishing a lot of knives but definitely not for polishing. The shapton 2k’s I have, i’m not a fan of. The glass is ok but I want something that I don’t have to deal with it loading or glazing. I thought the morihei 4k was the answer. Now i’m hesitant.


----------



## Robert Lavacca (Nov 3, 2020)

Has anyone tried the suehiro rika 3k. The oouga or whatever? I usually go gesshin 220 or king 300. Then I will head to a gesshin 600, followed by a gesshik 1k, after that I have to battle the other synthetics I have that i’m not a huge fan of. I have the JNS 6k and I love it but I would really like something in between that.


----------



## zizirex (Nov 3, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> Has anyone tried the suehiro rika 3k. The oouga or whatever? I usually go gesshin 220 or king 300. Then I will head to a gesshin 600, followed by a gesshik 1k, after that I have to battle the other synthetics I have that i’m not a huge fan of. I have the JNS 6k and I love it but I would really like something in between that.


Yes, it's a nice stone, softer than Naniwa Pro, Soaks a lot of water, run under tap water for 5 minutes is usually fine. cuts slower than Naniwa Pro, feedback is nice, not too soft and leaves a nice more uniform toothy edge than Naniwa pro.


----------



## milangravier (Nov 3, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> Has anyone tried the suehiro rika 3k. The oouga or whatever? I usually go gesshin 220 or king 300. Then I will head to a gesshin 600, followed by a gesshik 1k, after that I have to battle the other synthetics I have that i’m not a huge fan of. I have the JNS 6k and I love it but I would really like something in between that.


Hi,
I will make a more constructive answer later but I need to correct what I have said. On stones, even on synthetic, the way we use them is very important. I had bad feeling about morihei 4000 and shapton pro 5000, but I think I was not using them correctly. I did second try with morihei and I succeed to get a nice quite clean kasumi. It is not powerful enough for erasing 2k bester but it is not a slow stone nevertheless. I think it is nice, not sticky, not too hard.
Shapton pro 5000 : the stone is really not for clad but it is well made to make a clean core before going finer in grit or natural stones. I don't know if I would use it a lot, but definitely not a bad stone.


----------



## Robert Lavacca (Nov 3, 2020)

I’m surprised the morihei 4k is having trouble erasing 2k scratches. Right now for me it’s between the morihei 4k or the ouga 3k. I’ll be using it probably after a 1k. I’m probably going to go with the morihei 4k. I guess if I need to get a better 2k down the road i’ll pick the king hyper up.


----------



## Robert Lavacca (Nov 3, 2020)

zizirex said:


> Yes, it's a nice stone, softer than Naniwa Pro, Soaks a lot of water, run under tap water for 5 minutes is usually fine. cuts slower than Naniwa Pro, feedback is nice, not too soft and leaves a nice more uniform toothy edge than Naniwa pro.


I’m definitely intrigued. Especially because it’s only $55. I’ll be using this mostly in a polishing progression if I get this over the morihei. I don’t mind spending a little more time on a stone if I have to when it comes to erasing scratches as long as the stone doesn’t glaze or load constantly.


----------



## milangravier (Nov 5, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> I’m surprised the morihei 4k is having trouble erasing 2k scratches. Right now for me it’s between the morihei 4k or the ouga 3k. I’ll be using it probably after a 1k. I’m probably going to go with the morihei 4k. I guess if I need to get a better 2k down the road i’ll pick the king hyper up.


Just remember that the Bester 2000 is leaving quite deep scratches so to me it is more a 1000 grit someting (maybe a tad lower). I think morihei could erase them, but to my taste it would not be quick enough to be sure that all of them are well erase efficiently. If I am using bester 2000 I would use or cerax 3000 either naniwa pro 3000 to erase 2K scratches ; then go morihei 4K that is giving a nice, easier finish on the wide bevel. Then you can go on naturals and could not need to use midgrit natural but directly for example an uchigumori. 
It can feel weird to do such a small step between cerax 3K and morihei 4K. But brands don't have same scales. And a stone finish is the mix of grit, hardness, bonding, etc... For exemple, morihei 4K is good for natural stone kasumi looking, bester 4K is giving more a mirror core with sort of very muted black clad. Very different finish for same "grit" stone. I tested once naniwa super 2K, very weird stone to my opinion, at 2K it was giving miror core and black clad (like bester 4k), it could be used as a 4K stone to me and would never use it after a 500 grit what I would do with most of my 1k/2k stones.


----------



## inferno (Nov 5, 2020)

so i just tested how fast my naniwa pro2k would erase scratches from the glass 500. answer is 30-35 seconds.
it took about 15s to get half way there, and that what when i shot the lower pic. and as we can see only the lower half of the bevel has the 2k finish.


----------

