# Tojiro Powder Steel



## Keith Sinclair

Picked up this blade couple months ago from James in Australia. Some impressions. Paid around 150.00 shipped from down under. That is a good price for the Tojiro powder.

When I first held it seemed on the heavy side at 8.83oz. I sharpened it raised a burr easy on Gesshin 4K. As began using it this knife started to grow on me. It has a really fine convex grind with the extra weight just falls through food. Edge retention is excellent.

The Akifusa was sharper OOTB. Tojiro JMO has better grind and is thinner behind the edge. I am not expert enough to tell difference between SRS-15 & Tojiro powder, both are excellent stainless.

Have been a long time fan of Tojiro Stainless cleavers they have great grinds. Not so much with the cheap carbon blades that can come thick as a brick. Always thought the DP was OK good intro to Japan blades. 

If you don't mind a little weight this is a much better blade than DP. Does not need any modifications is a very good cutter with perfect balance joy to cut with.


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## paper-crane

Thanks for the confirmation of the convex grind, I was not quite sure of that. 

I've been looking at that knife for a couple of days now. 

James was nice enough to post comparison shots between the DP and the PS in his subforum: 
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/23051-Tojiro-DP-and-PM-series-comparison-profile-geometry-f-amp-f

Even with shipping and import, the knife would be cheaper than a Takamura R2 in most places. The main differences I can point to would be the weight, Takamura only coming in at 160g vs a bit over 200g vor the Tojiro. Plus, the Tojiro HSPS should be thicker in the spine. 

Do you by any chance have any laser to compare the Tojiro to (Takamura, Ashi / Gesshin, Suisin, Konosuke, etc)???

Thanks for sharing!
PC


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## Keith Sinclair

Have owned plenty laser type blades Sakai Yusuke special thin, Gesshin Ginga. Used Masamoto and Konosuke carbons at work. I like thin knives. Also a place for beefy gyuto's always had one in my kit.

This blade is thin behind the edge where it counts. Tojiro got it right with this knife.


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## Miles

I have a couple of Tojiro PS blades, a 240 and 300 gyutou picked up twelve or so years ago when they and powder steels were the newest, latest and greatest flavor of the moment. I liked them then. I still like them a lot, although admittedly, they've both been drawer queens for quite some time. I think the general impression of Tojiro as being a maker of somewhat pedestrian, utilitarian blades with somewhat loose fit and finish really harmed them in the long run, along with the belief that super hard steels are chippy. I never found them lacking in either department, although the 240 benefited from a bit of thinning behind the edge. Oddly, despite the fact that neither has been in active rotation for a while, I would hesitate to part with either one if I were to thin my extended kit. I will attest to the fact that they do lose that initial fresh off the stones sharpness fairly quickly, but they hold a very usable level of sharpness for a very long time.


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## Keith Sinclair

Miles 12 years ago only used carbon knives. Since joining this forum have ventured into quality stainless. Agree Tojiro knives for most part are more pedestrian. I have felt that their kitchen knives were not anywhere as good as their stainless cleavers.

Now I know they make a good Stainless Gyuto too.


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## Nick_Hall

This was a really helpful and timely review! With 3 kids under the age of 5, my knife budget is pretty small  

I only cook at home, so it's difficult to justify spending a great deal of money on knives. Even so, life is short, and working with a well made tool is one of life's small pleasures. I've decided to upgrade the Calphalon knives that I bought 12 years but I don't want to break the bank. I like to keep them shaving sharp, but the steel is so poor, it's a constant battle.

The Tojiro F-521 is a bit more than I can afford to spend, but it's within reach. It's always great to hear about a first rate knife available on a small budget.


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## Nemo

Sorry to revive an old thread but does anyone know what the core steel in these is? I'll be sharpening one every few months. I assume that it'll have largish carbides and will need a generous angle to aviod carbide pull out? Or maybe a right micro bevel at about 40 degrees?


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## James

Nemo said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread but does anyone know what the core steel in these is? I'll be sharpening one every few months. I assume that it'll have largish carbides and will need a generous angle to aviod carbide pull out? Or maybe a right micro bevel at about 40 degrees?



My bet is on SG2/R2. A while back, I saw a few vendors on rakuten advertise it as such


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## Nemo

Thanks James. I thought that R2/SG2 was the best bet. I was planning to sharpen like R2 if I did not get any more specific information.


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## Marek07

Nemo - glad you got an answer. Now I have a question for you: What on earth is "carbide pull out"? Sorry if that's a dumb one. I saw an explanation about carbide grains being pulled out of a metal matrix but I'd like a KKF friendly explanation please. Carbide 101 so to speak.


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## Nemo

Marek, I'm definitely no sharpening guru and although I have an interest in steel metallurgy, I'm not an expert in that either. My understanding is that carbide pull-out is microchipping caused by carbides being pulled out during use. It's more likely in highly alloyed steels with large carbides (I'm guessing tool steels including PM steels and many alloyed SS are in this category). It's more likely if the angle at the very edge is greater than that particular alloy can support. For example, I have been told that 14dps is far too acute for SG2 (which is hardly the most alloyed PM steel). Carbon steels and fine-grained SS with fine carbides (such as AEB-L) don't tend to have this problem, even with very acute edges. Microvbevelling is often suggested to counteract this problem.
I'm not sure the extent to which this is based in theory vs empirical evidence, but some guys who seem to have a lot of sharpening experience place a lot of store in it, so I guess that it's based in their experience, at least.
I'd very much welcome the input and perspective of those who know more.


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## pkjames

afaik tojiro never disclose specific details about what exactly the PM steel is. R2 first emerged from Chinese websites a couple of years ago which I don't believe it is accurate and I don't believe a rakuten seller knows more.


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## Nemo

pkjames said:


> afaik tojiro never disclose specific details about what exactly the PM steel is. R2 first emerged from Chinese websites a couple of years ago which I don't believe it is accurate and I don't believe a rakuten seller knows more.


So it could even be a steel that we aren't really familiar with? I guess I'll give it an edge and see how it goes and adjust from there (which is kinda what I already do I suppose).


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## Marek07

Nemo said:


> Marek, I'm definitely no sharpening guru and although I have an interest in steel metallurgy, I'm not an expert in that either. My understanding is that carbide pull-out is microchipping caused by carbides being pulled out during use. It's more likely in highly alloyed steels with large carbides (I'm guessing tool steels including PM steels and many alloyed SS are in this category). It's more likely if the angle at the very edge is greater than that particular alloy can support. For example, I have been told that 14dps is far too acute for SG2 (which is hardly the most alloyed PM steel). Carbon steels and fine-grained SS with fine carbides (such as AEB-L) don't tend to have this problem, even with very acute edges. Microvbevelling is often suggested to counteract this problem.
> I'm not sure the extent to which this is based in theory vs empirical evidence, but some guys who seem to have a lot of sharpening experience place a lot of store in it, so I guess that it's based in their experience, at least.
> I'd very much welcome the input and perspective of those who know more.


Thanks Phil. 
I think I got most of that - not too technical for my little brain and an insight into the carbide issue from a knife/sharpening perspective. 
The only PM steels I have are a couple of Takamura and a Takayuki Shibata Kotetsu - both in R2. I've only sharpened one of the Takamuras so far and they are thin knives with quite a fine edge. Perhaps even around the 14dps limit you spoke of, but I don't really know - still sharpened OK (by my standards). 
If you or any one else would care to comment about the angles on PM steels or Takamuras specifically, I'm all ears.


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## Nemo

Marek07 said:


> Thanks Phil.
> I think I got most of that - not too technical for my little brain and an insight into the carbide issue from a knife/sharpening perspective.
> The only PM steels I have are a couple of Takamura and a Takayuki Shibata Kotetsu - both in R2. I've only sharpened one of the Takamuras so far and they are thin knives with quite a fine edge. Perhaps even around the 14dps limit you spoke of, but I don't really know - still sharpened OK (by my standards).
> If you or any one else would care to comment about the angles on PM steels or Takamuras specifically, I'm all ears.


I think that a lot of PM steels can get quite fine-grained (I think because of the PM process) so will shapen to quite an acute angle and quite a refined edge. The carbide pull-out in my (limited) understsnding is more to do with edge retention. That is, highly alloyed steels (especially if the carbides are large) microchip rapidly at acute edge angles but retain their edge for ages at less acute angles. I don't know if its a threshold effect or a gradual transition.

I have more knives than I can use every day (more just seem to keep showing up! What's with that?&#128518, so I guess that estimating edge retention is difficult except in a pro environment. I've only just started microbevelling tool steels so I can't comment on whether the edge retention is any better yet. Having said that, I hadn't noticed rapid edge failure on Sg2 or SRS15 or SKD-12 knives at 14 dps (back whe I used to use Edgepro). But it may have been due to intermittent use.

Maybe we should start a new thread on this topic in the sharpening station?


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## Nemo

New thread started: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?t=30347


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

"a couple of Takamura and a Takayuki Shibata Kotetsu - both in R2"

At least the first comes OOTB with a far steeper edge than 14dps


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## Nemo

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "a couple of Takamura and a Takayuki Shibata Kotetsu - both in R2"
> 
> At least the first comes OOTB with a far steeper edge than 14dps



Yep. I had a Ryusen Blazen in SG2 that came with ~12dps, as did my Akifusa.

As I said, I don't really know if this phenomenon is based in theory or on experience.


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## malexthekid

Nemo said:


> Yep. I had a Ryusen Blazen in SG2 that came with ~12dps, as did my Akifusa.
> 
> As I said, I don't really know if this phenomenon is based in theory or on experience.



It will depend on the steel, its composition and its HT, but from my experience R2 can take a very fine edge. There are some great threads floating around on here about controlling carbides etc etc. but for the life of me I can't remember where they were.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@Nemo the red handled Takamuras are usually specified as delivered with 9dps.


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## Nemo

I thought I should review this knife, which I bought as a gift.

Purchased at K&S. James put an edge on it- not sure if it was because I told him it was a gift, but thanks.

It comes in a neat box, with a soft plastic sheath. The blade was oiled on delivery- Im not sure if James did that or it came like that from Tojiro.

It weighs about 230g. Satin finish looks buffered as one would expect in a mass produced knife. 242mm cutting edge. 48-49mm height. 2mm thick spine is mostly maintained until ~80% toward the tip, then there is a nice distal taper. It has a fairly flat spot for the first half of the blade with a gentle upward curve after that then quite a high tip (but nowhere near as much belly as a Shun or a Wustie). Not my favourite profile but probably more familiar to the recipient.




The grind is quite good, with a gentle convexity and reasonably thin behind the edge.




The F&F is not perfect, but given the price point, not too bad. The big yo handle isn't completely flush with the bolster or tang but this is being pretty picky. The spine and choil are downright sharp- quite uncomfortable but easy enough to fix with a bit or wet and dry.






I compared it to my Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi, my current favourite all round knife.

On carrots, the Tojiro performed well but made its presence felt a little more in carrots than the Shiro Kamo, while also having slightly worse food release. On zucchini (courgettes), performance was similar but the Tojiro had slightly worse food release. On onion, both performed well but once again, food release was not as good with the Tojiro. Notably, the tip coped quite well with onion. On bacon (with rind), the knives were similar, the Tojiro maybe a touch less capable. Interestingly, the Tojiro had superior food release with bacon.

Overall, it's not as good as my Shiro Kamo (which is in itself a brilliant value knife) but is in the same ballpark, with a lower price.

I would have loved to compare it to my old Ryusen Blazen, but I don't have access to that knife at the moment.

I obviously can't comment on sharpening (James- can you?) or edge retention (but one would expect this to be substantial given that this is a PM tool steel).

I think that overall this knife is stellar value and a pretty good introduction to Japanese knives. A good grind, high tech steel and OK F&F. It does suit someone who is used to a German profile a little more than some knives. I guess the only caveats are that HSPS may not be the ideal steel to learn to sharpen on (but it is probably better than VG10 I suspect) and the spine & choil need a bit of attention (the spine was noticeably more uncomfortable than the Shiro Kamo).

Thanks for reading.


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## kevpenbanc

I have a takamura hana R2 that I've had for a few years, and sharpened a few times. I sharpen at 10-12 degrees, it gets stinky sharp and holds it for a long time. I don't think that's too acute for the steel.




Nemo said:


> Marek, I'm definitely no sharpening guru and although I have an interest in steel metallurgy, I'm not an expert in that either. My understanding is that carbide pull-out is microchipping caused by carbides being pulled out during use. It's more likely in highly alloyed steels with large carbides (I'm guessing tool steels including PM steels and many alloyed SS are in this category). It's more likely if the angle at the very edge is greater than that particular alloy can support. For example, I have been told that 14dps is far too acute for SG2 (which is hardly the most alloyed PM steel). Carbon steels and fine-grained SS with fine carbides (such as AEB-L) don't tend to have this problem, even with very acute edges. Microvbevelling is often suggested to counteract this problem.
> I'm not sure the extent to which this is based in theory vs empirical evidence, but some guys who seem to have a lot of sharpening experience place a lot of store in it, so I guess that it's based in their experience, at least.
> I'd very much welcome the input and perspective of those who know more.


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## pkjames

If it was with oil then I gave it the edge. I always use oil to wipe off everything regardless if it was stainless or not.

James


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## Nemo

pkjames said:


> If it was with oil then I gave it the edge. I always use oil to wipe off everything regardless if it was stainless or not.
> 
> James



Yeah, I was pretty sure it had the K&S edge. &#128513;


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## Nemo

kevpenbanc said:


> I have a takamura hana R2 that I've had for a few years, and sharpened a few times. I sharpen at 10-12 degrees, it gets stinky sharp and holds it for a long time. I don't think that's too acute for the steel.



Thanks Kev.

I must say that I haven't myself noticed poor edge retention at only slightly less acute angles. I did start another thread on this topic and had a few different opinions.


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## skewed

Thanks Nemo for the little review. I have been a an Tojiro DP advocate for casual home users for a number of years. Bought a handful of them as gifts and recommend them all the time. The HSPS seem like a perfect step up from the DP line. Even though I don't have a need for one, I might have to get one to try out against my old trusty DP gyuto just to see the difference.

Cheers,
rj


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## Nemo

I don't have any other Tojiros, so I'd be happy to see the comparison, Skewed.


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## Nemo

I have subsequently sharpened the Tojiro HSPS. Sharpens and deburrs quite easily. Similar to R2 in this respect I would say.


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