# New stainless king of the hill?



## vai777 (Apr 7, 2016)

Yeah, pretty much. The Kohetsu HAP40 has surpassed (IMHO) the Ikeda (SRS-15) as far as edge retention is concerned. Both get equally sharp but the Koehtsu holds it's edge longer (significantly, but not mind-blowingly so). Seeing as they are around the same price (I think the Kohetsu is a little cheaper actually) I have to now recommend the Kohetsu over the Ikeda. If anyone knows of another knife out these that can hang with the HAP40, I'm all ears... cause I haven't found one... and that includes R2, SRS-15, ZDP-189, COWRY-X, AEB-L, etc.... I'd like to try a kitchen knife in M4 though...or REX 121. Alas, the HAP40 will have to do for now.


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## vai777 (Apr 7, 2016)

I should say... stain resistant...


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## preizzo (Apr 7, 2016)

Cosay knives are made of hap40, cleancut.se selling them.


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## bkultra (Apr 7, 2016)

The steel is only part of the equation. The heat treat plays a large role in the outcome. I'll take Devin's AEB-L


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## malexthekid (Apr 7, 2016)

I can't see why you need more edge holding than you get with R2 ala Mr Itou or Ryusen.


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## vai777 (Apr 7, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I can't see why you need more edge holding than you get with R2 ala Mr Itou or Ryusen.



I have had many Itou knives... they are great, the HAP40 is a better steel for edge holding


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## malexthekid (Apr 7, 2016)

But how/when are you meant to sharpen &#128521;


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## laxdad (Apr 7, 2016)

How does the Kohetsu cut compared to the Ikeda or other knives that you enjoy using?


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## daddy yo yo (Apr 8, 2016)

what I find particularly interesting is that this line is available in wa- and ho-style. I prefer wa nowadays but like the look of the yo-handles of these knives...


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 8, 2016)

The Hap40 is stain resistant. Cutting all kinds of food core steel edge takes on a golden hue. It is nice steel and like the other powders that I have used SRS-15, SKD, HSPS it is easy to sharpen as is AEB-L. Never used, sharpened or even seen ZPD-189 or Cowry-X. I wish I could so maybe put the powder steel hard to sharpen myth in the dustbin. I have had knives that are hard to sharpen mostly cheap stainless. My experience M390 is a little tough to sharpen.

Cuz of you have become a big fan of powder steels.:biggrin:


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## spoiledbroth (Apr 8, 2016)

I think some people will always find certain steels to be "hard to sharpen" whether they are or not... Maybe best to judge for yourself


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## richard (Apr 8, 2016)

I would think it also depends what kind of stones you have?


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## ThEoRy (Apr 8, 2016)

Not really. It just depends upon the skills or experience of the sharpener.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 8, 2016)

I remember 4 or 5 years ago M390 was the buzz. I bought a spyderco to try it out. I really beat the crap out of it doing yard work. It had good edge retention, but found it took extra pressure behind the edge when sharpening. Later Mark from CKTG had some made. I remember thinking maybe not the best steel for chef knives. I do not see any made out of M390 these days. I have even had a few Japanese stainless that did not sharpen that well.

I am amazed how good some of the stainless knives are these days it is cool that the foundries are willing to make limited quantities for the high end kitchen knife market. I always felt that ease of sharpening is important as is edge retention eg. quick ups at work. Yoshikane SKD, Akifusa SRS-15, Hap40, custom treated AEB-L, have been around for a while & are proven. I think that Tojiro to their credit improved their powder steel knives over the years. I may be off but isn't the Gesshin Ginga steel the Japanese version of AEB-L? Anyway these steels are user friendly and work well for chef knives.

I think it would be nice to see SRS-15 & Hap40 used by other makers. I know some are with the Hap40.

Of coarse carbon steel can always be sharpened up unless to much rust along the cutting edge.:sad0:


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## spoiledbroth (Apr 8, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> Not really. It just depends upon the skills or experience of the sharpener.



This. +1

Remember were essentially rubbing metal onto rocks here. A good carpenter does not his tools blame 

I like ginsanko a lot. (Hitachi silver 3). I have had a few knives made with this steel and I enjoy how easy it is to sharpen and the retention is quite good (all round 60-61 hrc). Had a few really bad instances of the knife falling on the floor (one where the edge made quite forceful contact the the ss leg of a workbench- not a single chip)


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## lucabrasi (Apr 8, 2016)

There are limits to this idea that the only variable is the skills of the sharpener. Try sharpening s110v on your bester and come back and talk about how your skill prevailed. We will know you're lying.


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## lucabrasi (Apr 8, 2016)

Or I suppose just have a different standard as to the meaning of sharp.


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## vai777 (Apr 8, 2016)

laxdad said:


> How does the Kohetsu cut compared to the Ikeda or other knives that you enjoy using?



Well.. the Ikeda I have has been thinned.... thinned to an extreme degree... so its geometry dictates that Ikeda in particular is a better cutter... but stock, the HAP40 is just as good if not better


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## vai777 (Apr 8, 2016)

keithsaltydog said:


> The Hap40 is stain resistant. Cutting all kinds of food core steel edge takes on a golden hue. It is nice steel and like the other powders that I have used SRS-15, SKD, HSPS it is easy to sharpen as is AEB-L. Never used, sharpened or even seen ZPD-189 or Cowry-X. I wish I could so maybe put the powder steel hard to sharpen myth in the dustbin. I have had knives that are hard to sharpen mostly cheap stainless. My experience M390 is a little tough to sharpen.
> 
> Cuz of you have become a big fan of powder steels.:biggrin:



M390 is a pain... have it on a few Benchmade folders... 

ZDP189 has increased in price... I remember having a nice little Sanetu ZDP-189 Santoku that got blazing sharp.... was like $150... now it is impossible to find a ZDP-189 knife under $300

My experience with Cowry-x was from the KD line.... that is now the stuff of legend.... as is the price.


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## Jovidah (Apr 8, 2016)

lucabrasi said:


> There are limits to this idea that the only variable is the skills of the sharpener. Try sharpening s110v on your bester and come back and talk about how your skill prevailed. We will know you're lying.



Yes there is actually truth to some steels being beyond the reach of some stones (although I wouldn't hazard to suggest either stones or steels). See this link for example: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=713

Take in mind that while usually a HRC of the specific blade is given, depending on heat treat and contents some of the carbides within it can be far harder. 
For example both vanadium and tungsten carbides are supposedly harder than aluminium oxide.


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## spoiledbroth (Apr 8, 2016)

Ah yeah those s110v kitchen knives we all see so much of nowadays.... How could I forget! :razz: I agree there are limits and and perhaps would concede the abrasive used would impact the perception of how easy ie. How much work the knife takes to sharpen.


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## lucabrasi (Apr 8, 2016)

Fair enough that it's not in kitchen knives. Suppose I was thinking just sharpening generally, but you're right that the commonly available kitchen knife steels should be doable with regular stones. Including zdp.


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## Jovidah (Apr 8, 2016)

lucabrasi said:


> Fair enough that it's not in kitchen knives. Suppose I was thinking just sharpening generally, but you're right that the commonly available kitchen knife steels should be doable with regular stones. Including zdp.



...because with ZPD they left out the vanadium, so there aren't any vanadium carbides that are harder than your stone... 

I think by all means the 'hard to grind' pivots around the alloys / carbides, not the general HRC of the matrix.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 8, 2016)

Jovidah said:


> Yes there is actually truth to some steels being beyond the reach of some stones (although I wouldn't hazard to suggest either stones or steels). See this link for example: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=713
> 
> Take in mind that while usually a HRC of the specific blade is given, depending on heat treat and contents some of the carbides within it can be far harder.
> For example both vanadium and tungsten carbides are supposedly harder than aluminium oxide.



Not the first time have heard great reviews of the Sigma Power Select 2.


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## spoiledbroth (Apr 8, 2016)

as ever there is always a trade off, if you are looking for something with super edge retention it is logical to assume it must be quite a tough abrasion resistant knife.


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## Farnorth (Apr 8, 2016)

keithsaltydog said:


> Not the first time have heard great reviews of the Sigma Power Select 2.



I have had the power select 2's for a few years now and they do an excellent job on the harder steels for which they are designed. (For me they are for woodworking tools not knives). I use different stones for softer tool steels and the beginnings of my knife collection.


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## ThEoRy (Apr 8, 2016)

lucabrasi said:


> There are limits to this idea that the only variable is the skills of the sharpener. Try sharpening s110v on your bester and come back and talk about how your skill prevailed. We will know you're lying.



Got it. So Dave, Jon or even Murray Carter can't sharpen s110v on a Bester or a King. Unless of course they are lying.


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## aboynamedsuita (Apr 9, 2016)

I haven't read all of the posts, so may be missing part of the discussion, but Murray Carter did say in an interview that some steels are nearly impossible to sharpen by hand (he uses king stones afaik):



> *10. Are there some knives that you dont like to sharpen?*





> Any knife that is sold under the pretense of extreme wear resistance, such as the ZDP189 or VascoWear blades, are nearly impossible to sharpen by hand. I sometimes joke that the owners of these knives would be better served with a ceramic blade or diamond coated blade. It is not commonly known or understood that the primary requisite for a high performance knife is ease of maintenance, even before edge hardness and keenness. The Holy Grail in cutlery is a blade that only takes a few minutes to regrind and finish the secondary and primary edge and yet cuts flawlessly for hours on end. This is a great economy of effort. This is why I prefer to use the Hitachi White Steel, because it sharpens easily yet maintains an incredible edge. My last advice for those thinking about learning to sharpen by hand is save yourself a lot of time and effort and get my easy to watch and easy to understand instructional video for $25 as a digital download or $35 for a DVD.


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## Jovidah (Apr 9, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> Got it. So Dave, Jon or even Murray Carter can't sharpen s110v on a Bester or a King. Unless of course they are lying.


Well there are certainly limitations... the vanadium carbides will be harder than the stone, so you'll be sharpening the matrix but the vanadium isn't going anywhere until it pops out. Maybe that's why Jon also uses diamond stones? Those would have no problem shaping the vanadium carbides.
As I said above, that's probably also why there's no vanadium in ZPD-189. Grinding down the molybdenum and chromium carbides is no problem but the vanadium carbides are simply harder than the aluminium oxide abrasive found in water stones. So you will be encountering at least some difficulty there.


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## vai777 (Apr 9, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> Got it. So Dave, Jon or even Murray Carter can't sharpen s110v on a Bester or a King. Unless of course they are lying.



You can sharpen s110v by stone, it will take forever and you aren't going to get the best edge possible. Shapton Glass would probably be the best stone for S110V. Also it's the addition of Niobium (Nb) that creates carbides that are even harder than Vanadium.


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## lucabrasi (Apr 9, 2016)

Look, not trying to be a jerk. The lying statement was too much. But...yes, I venture to say those individuals aren't getting awesome edges on s110v with a bester. They might get a nice polished looking edge but it won't cut well. Because the vanadium carbides are harder than the abrasive. With diamonds I'm sure they'd get a spectacular edge. Far better than myself with said diamonds.


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## lucabrasi (Apr 9, 2016)

And of course I welcome any of those sharpeners to disagree. I am no expert despite my pretense. I've just experienced it first hand, and in turn read enough from enough sources that the highest vanadium powdered steels are a different game.

I've gotten zdp hht sharp on regular ole stones with enough effort and endurance. The same effort and endurance applied to s110v results in an edge that can hardly slice printer paper and pushes hairs back and forth like a brush. I may suck. But there also may be more to it.


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## spoiledbroth (Apr 9, 2016)

Curious nobody with a wear resistant knife has commented thus far. Have these knives become dull drawer queens ?


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## Jovidah (Apr 9, 2016)

Maybe they were all so satisfied with the performance they stopped looking for other knives?


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## lucabrasi (Apr 9, 2016)

I just sharpen the especially bad ones on diamond plates. And honestly I hate sharpening on diamond plates so I'm done buying knives with that kind of steel. 

Cts-xhp, s30v, s35v, zdp-189, certainly d2/SLD types all are perfectly able to be sharpened on normal stones, just requires more effort. Never tried R2, hap40, srs15, but it sounds like they all are fine too. 

At this point, I'd rather use carbon or ginsanko.


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## Jovidah (Apr 9, 2016)

Yeah to be fair, when using diamond plates you shouldn't ever have any of these problems. Same with silicon carbide I think. Stropping with some compounds (diamond pastes / sprays, boron stuff) should also work. The key is to just use any kind of abrasive that is hard enough to actually shape the vanadium carbides. 
It is however also a function of the heat treatment and the distribution and size of carbides. If they're small enough you'll just end up with a slightly toothy but still perfectly functional edge, even if you cannot shape carbides themselves.


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## aboynamedsuita (Apr 9, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Curious nobody with a wear resistant knife has commented thus far. Have these knives become dull drawer queens ?



I never had to sharpen the ZDP-189 knives I had, maybe if owned fewer knives or held onto them I could comment


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## JBroida (Apr 9, 2016)

i dont think i've ever sharpened s110v, but i've used a beston, bester, and rika to sharpen zdp. I've done it with a king before, but it wasnt fun. If presented with a choice, i will generally go for faster cutting stones. Anyways, the point is that it can be done, but why would you want to? If you're investing that much in a knife (or steel type), wouldnt you invest in some stones that work well for it? Thats not to say you need to get diamond stones or anything like that, but just something a bit faster maybe. I think of it like putting regular unleaded gas in a ferrari or getting a $100 lens for a canon 5d or Nikon D810. I guess you could do it, but its just kind of stupid.

For what its worth, i agree with carter in the sense that knife steels should have some focus on ease of sharpening.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 9, 2016)

Just sharpened up a Vietnam Conetta K-Bar. It was in fair shape had seen a lot of use, fixed broken tip. Used the diamond stone to sharpen it got a pretty good edge. Getting a little more experience on this stone.

Think that folders try out different steels like M390 and s110V that have toughness but are not suited for chef knives.


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## leansmancave (Apr 10, 2016)

Kinda late to chime in.

From my own experience, it only takes moderate effort to maintain the edge of a ZDP (Sukenari) on a #6000 King, it is not something painstaking. I once put my Sukenari on my #1000 King and it did feel & sound like glass, so I understand why Jon & Murray hate sharpening ZDPs on Kings, because the ZDP knives they were sharpening could be very much dull when they came from the customers, and in that case bringing the edge back on Kings should be something very unpleasant.

These days I don't chase the super duper PMs anymore, but if the price and workmanship are great, then I won't hesitate to buy another PM knife.

-Lean


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## JBroida (Apr 10, 2016)

yeah... almost no one brings me a knife just for a quick touchup... they are almost always in bad shape when they get to me


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## JDA_NC (Apr 10, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Curious nobody with a wear resistant knife has commented thus far. Have these knives become dull drawer queens ?



I've been using a Sukenari ZDP 189 gyuto for the last three months in a professional kitchen as my main knife.

I bought this mainly because I liked its profile, grind, that it was wa-handled and stainless and also hardened to an extreme. I had been using a SG2/R2 knife for the last year and a half heavily too and so I had also come to like PM steel at work.

I have no complaints.

Everyone at work who has used it has commented on it and many have asked about the price & where I got it. It's one of my favorite purchases ever and a fantastic, fantastic knife. I like my edges on PM steel to be extremely acute and finished at an aggressive grit (around 1k). I'm picky on how sharp my knife should be before work and I can go a week easy just touching up on a felt strop daily. I love that about PM steel.

I use Jon's diamond stone set which are wonderful so I never have a real struggle sharpening. I would not want to try to establish a new bevel with a King stone though...

It's a great knife. Would I recommend chasing knives just because of the steel alone? Not ever. I think there are a lot of really great options out there in stainless. 90% of the folks out would likely be just as blown away by the performance & retention of a Ginga or SIH knife.


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## aboynamedsuita (Apr 10, 2016)

JDA_NC said:


> I've been using a Sukenari ZDP 189 gyuto for the last three months in a professional kitchen as my main knife.
> 
> I bought this mainly because I liked its profile, grind, that it was wa-handled and stainless and also hardened to an extreme. I had been using a SG2/R2 knife for the last year and a half heavily too and so I had also come to like PM steel at work.
> 
> ...



Reading your post kinda makes me regret selling mine.


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## MontezumaBoy (Apr 10, 2016)

I have one of CKTG Kono ZDP-189 (solid) from a few years ago, bought on B/S/T, to try the steel ... no expert but once I used Jon/JKI diamond stones on it things were very straight forward and the blade really came to life. Will have to look into HAP40 though ...

Here it is with the 'new shoes' that Ian Haburn just put on it ... 





I really love it and the edge lasts and lasts and lasts ... but hey I have too many gyutos and just a home cook so ...


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 12, 2016)

Nice knife like the handle too.


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 18, 2016)

I did not know that the Kohetsu Hap40 came with a Octagon handle. Looks like a different grind too much thinner behind the edge than the western handle versions I have seen.


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## Matus (Apr 18, 2016)

To me all the super tough steels (high alloy usually) are really better suited to utility blades which had to cut stuff that is really abrasive and other elements than intended come to the contact with blade. I find that 'medium alloy' steels (super blue, A2, D2, etc) offer plenty edge holding in a kitchen(I am not a chef, just a home user though). For me the best is a ballance in edge holding and ease of sharpening. I have HAP40 Delica and it really holds edge well - it is my utility blade in workshop, but I am not sure I would want a kitchen knife in that steel (I did not try, so this is just a guess).


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 18, 2016)

I have sharpened two of the western handle Hap40. I find that they take a nice edge on the stones. Not hard to sharpen. Have not used one thought the grind was just OK. Kind of like the Akifusa great steel properties the SRS-15 is a more stain resistant than the Hap40.

This wa looks like a better knife & is a little cheaper. Seems like his M390 gyuto's did not fly they were made in the USA. The Kohetsu are made in Japan. Have used a Kohetsu Aogami Super 270mm. Nice knife.


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## Lizzardborn (May 8, 2016)

Mine just came - when it comes to fit, finish, OOB sharpness and comfort of the handle the Sakai Yusuke is definitely better. Cutting is pleasant. We will see how the steel will behave.


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## panda (May 16, 2016)

how does hap40 kohetsu or gihei feel on stones? i only have a small pocket knife made of stainless clad hap40 and while it doesnt feel good, it was still surprisingly very easy to sharpen.

i care more about 'feel' in steel than i do retention these days. and i'm just not a fan of powdered steels cause they feel mechanical and not organic. my stainless of choice would still be ginsanko as that is the closest in feel to carbon i've come across.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 18, 2016)

Would white carbon #1 sharpened on a Gesshin 4K be organic enough

Ginsanko is a simple steel without added alloy just carbon & chrom. Sometimes less is more & just plain old works good.

I've been a carbon junkie so long, even have Japanese carbon garden tools, favorite ice carving chisels where carbon that picked up in Japan during competition. I like the powder steels do they feel the same on the stones as white steel. Not really carbon is a joy to sharpen even old blades can be made razor sharp. From what I read about powder steels & how they were hard to sharpen, was surprised SKD & SRS15 easy to raise a burr & take it off in my experience.

Since most are san mai blades would like to see some thick spines with thin grinds a little rougher hand forged look & feel to go with the powder core steel:whistling:


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