# Pure proformance



## Atrain316 (Jul 21, 2017)

So if you guys could pick a workhorse knife no cost factored in what would it be. Anything from a shig to a carter to a Kramer what would it be?


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## chinacats (Jul 21, 2017)

Toyoma


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 21, 2017)

Given my very good experience with one of their more inexpensive knives - if it was "masterchef, tomorrow" I'd probably be "Ryusen catalog, stat!"


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## Chef_ (Jul 21, 2017)

Kurosaki AS


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## Obsidiank (Jul 21, 2017)

+1 on Kurosaki AS


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## ecchef (Jul 21, 2017)

Tesshu in blue #2. Mizu honyaki if somebody else was paying.


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## panda (Jul 21, 2017)

masamoto honyaki


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## Atrain316 (Jul 21, 2017)

Can we get links to these knives


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## Chef_ (Jul 21, 2017)

Kurosaki is on CKTG, think its sold out tho


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## turbochef422 (Jul 21, 2017)

Terayasu Fujiwara Denka, or Tansu


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## JaVa (Jul 22, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> Kurosaki is on CKTG, think its sold out tho



You can find them @ K&S under the name Syousin Chiku.


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## JaVa (Jul 22, 2017)

Yoshikazu Ikeda mizu-honyaki 240 gyuto


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## Chef_ (Jul 22, 2017)

JaVa said:


> You can find them @ K&S under the name Syousin Chiku.



Ahh damn, i bought it from CKTG, wish i would have gotten the K&S F&F.


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## zoze (Jul 22, 2017)

Watanabe


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## Ruso (Jul 22, 2017)

We have to define what workhorse is for more uniform responses. I would place Kurosaki into mid-weight category for example.
As for which workhorse, none for me. Not my thing.


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## Nemo (Jul 22, 2017)

Ruso said:


> We have to define what workhorse is for more uniform responses. I would place Kurosaki into mid-weight category.



+1 on both counts.

I take "workhorse" to mean "thicker spine, thin edge, great food release".

I really liked Mert's passaround workhorse. Very versatile. His "standard" workhorse gyuto grind is a pretty fine workhorse too.


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## labor of love (Jul 22, 2017)

Why kurosaki?


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 22, 2017)

Watanabe, TF Denka, Yoshikane, Gesshin Kagekiyo, Catcheside, Dalman, Gesshin Gengetsu, Gesshin Kochi, Raquin are my favorite performance wise. I'm not sure which one of those i'd choose if i had to pick only one.


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## sharptools (Jul 23, 2017)

My recently acquired Raquin cuts very well. My Marko S Grind in 52100 just keeps cutting and my Wakui is great regardless of price. These are some of my best cutters depending on the food item. Last but not least my CCK if you're into cleavers.


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## Chef_ (Jul 23, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Why kurosaki?



cuz kurosaki is awesome.


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## malexthekid (Jul 23, 2017)

Tansu Knives workhorse grind... 280mm &#128512;


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## loong (Jul 25, 2017)

turbochef422 said:


> Terayasu Fujiwara Denka, or Tansu



I'm wondering what's the difference between Terayasu Fujiwara Denka and Maboroshi? Cannot find any clue on their website.


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## dwalker (Jul 25, 2017)

loong said:


> I'm wondering what's the difference between Terayasu Fujiwara Denka and Maboroshi? Cannot find any clue on their website.



Steel


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 25, 2017)

If i'm not mistaken, Denka uses aogami super, Nashiji and Maboroshi, white #1.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...nives-difference-in-range?highlight=maboroshi


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## dwalker (Jul 25, 2017)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> If i'm not mistaken, Denka uses aogami super, Nashiji and Maboroshi, white #1.
> 
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...nives-difference-in-range?highlight=maboroshi



I believe this is correct. Nashiji is White 1 as well.


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## K813zra (Jul 25, 2017)

Assuming we are talking a workhorse grind I would go Watanabe 180mm gyuto as that is what fits me. If we are talking any knife that can take a beating and keep on going then it would be a Fujiwara FKH 180mm gyuto. So yeah, I keep both in my roll.


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## chiffonodd (Jul 25, 2017)

Interesting to me that kato is not coming up in this list. I thought it was worshipped as the world's greatest workhorse?


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## K813zra (Jul 25, 2017)

chiffonodd said:


> Interesting to me that kato is not coming up in this list. I thought it was worshipped as the world's greatest workhorse?



I would guess one would typically list a knife that they own and Kato is not that easy to get! I have missed a few times now from being way too slow.


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## Badgertooth (Jul 26, 2017)

chiffonodd said:


> Interesting to me that kato is not coming up in this list. I thought it was worshipped as the world's greatest workhorse?



I'll bite. Kato 270, standard flavour


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## Iggy (Jul 26, 2017)

Catcheside 270 SC125 Honyaki Gyuto


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## Atrain316 (Jul 26, 2017)

In all honesty I'm surprised there wasn't quite a few super rare knives but it seems to me proformance has severe diminished returns


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## khashy (Jul 26, 2017)

I'll second Kato standard and add Mizuno honyaki


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## Matus (Jul 26, 2017)

Itinomonn StainLess has impressive grind, excellent do-it-all knife.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jul 26, 2017)

DEVIN DT ITK


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## JaVa (Jul 26, 2017)

Matus said:


> Itinomonn StainLess has impressive grind, excellent do-it-all knife.



+1 Absolutely


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## trilby (Jul 26, 2017)

Don custom made knives handle and feel like workhorses.... An expensive workhorse but definitely a workhorse.


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## brooksie967 (Jul 26, 2017)

Ashi white 2 honyaki.


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## krx927 (Jul 27, 2017)

Kato and Watanabe and not Shig


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## fatboylim (Jul 27, 2017)

Pure cutting performance - Teruyasu Fujiwara denka (average food release). 

Pure food release performance with good cutting performance - Kato

All round cutting and food release performance - Toyama or Itinomonn.


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## banjo1071 (Jul 27, 2017)

Xerxes UF-HF


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## cheflivengood (Jul 27, 2017)

Maumasi. Comfort when working like a horse is just as important as HT and Grind, and the way the bolster flows is very comfy.


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## inzite (Jul 27, 2017)

TF Denka 240, Hiromoto Honyaki 185, Kato 240 (pure cutting performance)
TF Denka mini cleaver, Kurosaki R2 western (all round performance)


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## Krassi (Jul 27, 2017)

Xerxes UF-HF
or any other Xerxes.


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## Badgertooth (Jul 27, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Xerxes UF-HF
> or any other Xerxes.



Shiznizz, forgot about these.


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## qjlforever (Jul 27, 2017)

suisin honyaki


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## labor of love (Jul 27, 2017)

@people mentioning Denka, are those knives pretty heavy?


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## inzite (Jul 27, 2017)

labor of love said:


> @people mentioning Denka, are those knives pretty heavy?



im inclinded to say yes but i dont have a scale at home, my 240 denka weights similar or a bit more than my ku 240 kato with a ho handle


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## dwalker (Jul 27, 2017)

labor of love said:


> @people mentioning Denka, are those knives pretty heavy?



I think they can vary quite a bit. The one I had the opportunity to handle was a middleweight. Significantly lighter than my Toyama.


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## txtrqdrt (Jul 27, 2017)

inzite said:


> TF Denka 240, Hiromoto Honyaki 185, Kato 240 (pure cutting performance)
> TF Denka mini cleaver, Kurosaki R2 western (all round performance)




That mini cleaver sounds interesting. Was it a custom order? I can't seem to find anything like it on TF website. 


Also, to all those mentioning TF denka, can anyone compare to his maboroshi line? Is there an appreciable difference in cutting performance or is it more about superior edge retention?


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## Iggy (Jul 28, 2017)

txtrqdrt said:


> Also, to all those mentioning TF denka, can anyone compare to his maboroshi line? Is there an appreciable difference in cutting performance or is it more about superior edge retention?



Yes, have tested several Maboroshis and two Denkas till now. Geometrywise, you can't really compare because the variations in one line of knives (Maboroshi or Denka) can be bigger than the variations betweeen these two lines.
But... edge retention and edge stability are FAR superior in the Denka!

Regards, Iggy


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## inzite (Jul 28, 2017)

txtrqdrt said:


> That mini cleaver sounds interesting. Was it a custom order? I can't seem to find anything like it on TF website.
> 
> 
> Also, to all those mentioning TF denka, can anyone compare to his maboroshi line? Is there an appreciable difference in cutting performance or is it more about superior edge retention?



yeah. The TF Denka (gyutos) appear to have a thinner overally behind the edge geometry than the maboroshis. Edge retention is wonderful, almost like my R2 - just stays kitchen sharp for a long long time.


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## Customfan (Jul 28, 2017)

chinacats said:


> Toyoma



This... Kato or the fujiwara.... lots of good options out there...


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## txtrqdrt (Jul 28, 2017)

Iggy said:


> Yes, have tested several Maboroshis and two Denkas till now. Geometrywise, you can't really compare because the variations in one line of knives (Maboroshi or Denka) can be bigger than the variations betweeen these two lines.
> But... edge retention and edge stability are FAR superior in the Denka!
> 
> 
> ...





inzite said:


> yeah. The TF Denka (gyutos) appear to have a thinner overally behind the edge geometry than the maboroshis. Edge retention is wonderful, almost like my R2 - just stays kitchen sharp for a long long time.




Thank you both for the insight. I have a maboroshi santoku and I love it, but I think I'll have to spring for a denka gyuto sometime.


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## inzite (Jul 28, 2017)

txtrqdrt said:


> Thank you both for the insight. I have a maboroshi santoku and I love it, but I think I'll have to spring for a denka gyuto sometime.





IMG_20170519_181301_896 by Ricky Cheong Photography, on Flickr


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## cheflivengood (Jul 28, 2017)

inzite said:


> IMG_20170519_181301_896 by Ricky Cheong Photography, on Flickr



that looks great


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## inzite (Jul 28, 2017)

cheflivengood said:


> that looks great



yeah i love it! was expecting something thicker based on shots i see online of the maboroshi but was quite happy when all the denka i saw at his shop in person were like that!


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## MastrAndre (Jul 28, 2017)

labor of love said:


> @people mentioning Denka, are those knives pretty heavy?



About 190g-210g for a 240mm Denka Gyuto


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 11, 2018)

labor of love said:


> @people mentioning Denka, are those knives pretty heavy?



There's a lot of variation. The 240 is considerably heavier than the 210 and shorter blades. I was told the main reason the 240 is almost 2x the cost of the 210 is that there is more material (core steel, I presume) involved in the manufacture. My 210mm Denka was particularly light at 174g and 51mm at heel.


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## Barmoley (Jun 11, 2018)

I only handled one 210 at epicedge and it was not heavy at all, mid weight at most. The one they have was very nice though, well finished, good grind visually, etc. I didnt cut with it, but it seemed a very good version of the knife given all the inconsistencies people talk about.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 11, 2018)

All this TF talk cracks me up. For as long as hes been around his consistency and F&F level are at the amateurish level. Ive had 5 of his knives and the ones I liked best were the basic Nashiji line and they were very flawed. The maborishi were ok and the Denka was flat out horrible. All were ordered direct and after extensive messaging back and forth as to what was desired, he just sent what ever he made. The maborishi line knives I literally sent cad dimensional drawings with how I wanted my knives and I received knives that were nowhere remotely close to what I asked for. Other than that he is a pretty personable guy whos very intelligent and interesting.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 11, 2018)

Chicagohawkie said:


> All this TF talk cracks me up. For as long as hes been around his consistency and F&F level are at the amateurish level. Ive had 5 of his knives and the ones I liked best were the basic Nashiji line and they were very flawed. The maborishi were ok and the Denka was flat out horrible. All were ordered direct and after extensive messaging back and forth as to what was desired, he just sent what ever he made. The maborishi line knives I literally sent cad dimensional drawings with how I wanted my knives and I received knives that were nowhere remotely close to what I asked for. Other than that he is a pretty personable guy whos very intelligent and interesting.



You're not the first to provide precise specs only to receive a knife that fell short. Doesn't mean they are all bad. I think a lot of the issues are down to poor QC and oversight, especially when it comes to grind and weight issues. You have to remember TF does very little these days himself (he has at least 7 people working for him) and I think that has been the case for many years. I have no complaints with my 'toucou' marked 210 Denka. Worth searching out these older TF blades.


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## inzite (Jun 11, 2018)

F&F and consistency don't go in the same sentence as knives from TF but i love mine now having ones in different lines. Denka Gyuto is exceptional and a reference cutter, Denka mini workhorse cleaver is one of a kind, Maboroshi Yanagi is very decent and backside grind is consistent, Nashiji Petty was probably the wonkiest but I did request extra height and extra thin so it actually works really well - fixed any bevel unevenness on stones in a session or two but handle is quite poor but that's ok it has since been rehandled.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 11, 2018)

Interesting insight. A new twist to what I did not know. So, people are paying matchbox 20 money for a TF Denka gyuto thats made by apprentices? Ummmm...... Cancel my order! Lol!


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 11, 2018)

inzite said:


> F&F and consistency don't go in the same sentence as knives from TF but i love mine now having ones in different lines. Denka Gyuto is exceptional and a reference cutter, Denka mini workhorse cleaver is one of a kind, Maboroshi Yanagi is very decent and backside grind is consistent, Nashiji Petty was probably the wonkiest but I did request extra height and extra thin so it actually works really well - fixed any bevel unevenness on stones in a session or two but handle is quite poor but that's ok it has since been rehandled.



Ha ha! Ya, you got a couple 1 in 25 knife Denkas. I could never plop down 800 bucks and pray I got a good 240 denka any longer.


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## Barmoley (Jun 11, 2018)

If I were buying one, I would seriously consider the ones from epicurean edge. They are more expensive, but since I can't pick the right one myself in Japan, I'd go that route. The one denka I saw there was nice. With forum discount the price premium is not too bad. Once you pay this much I think playing the lottery doesn't make sense.


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## labor of love (Jun 11, 2018)

Epic edge actually doesnt honor the forum discount for TF knives.



Barmoley said:


> If I were buying one, I would seriously consider the ones from epicurean edge. They are more expensive, but since I can't pick the right one myself in Japan, I'd go that route. The one denka I saw there was nice. With forum discount the price premium is not too bad. Once you pay this much I think playing the lottery doesn't make sense.


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## labor of love (Jun 11, 2018)

Id go with bernal. They will email you a buttload if pics if you want before ordering. And theyre pretty realistic and down to earth with regards to the numerous problems TF historically have.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 11, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> If I were buying one, I would seriously consider the ones from epicurean edge. They are more expensive, but since I can't pick the right one myself in Japan, I'd go that route. The one denka I saw there was nice. With forum discount the price premium is not too bad. Once you pay this much I think playing the lottery doesn't make sense.



I very much agree with this. I would never trust a leap of faith purchase of a 240 Denka direct any longer. Reseller pricing is at over a grand in many cases and thats just ridiculous for a knife of this quality. Comparing a Denka to a Masakage Koishi which is a similar knife type I could never justify getting one any longer. No way a Denka outperforms a Koishi by 400 percent. Maybe a bad comparison , but pound for pound and dollar for dollar I just dont get the vision here.


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## chinacats (Jun 11, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> You're not the first to provide precise specs only to receive a knife that fell short. Doesn't mean they are all bad. I think a lot of the issues are down to poor QC and oversight, especially when it comes to grind and weight issues. You have to remember TF does very little these days himself (he has at least 7 people working for him) and I think that has been the case for many years. I have no complaints with my 'toucou' marked 210 Denka. Worth searching out these older TF blades.



Sucking is nothing new for tf...qc has always been half-assed and totally random quality, no matter the line it's a roll of the dice. If you've found a good old one you're just as lucky as the guy who got a new one that's good. Nothing wrong with a little wabi-sabi unless you expect quality work at his prices.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 11, 2018)

If I were looking at a 240 I'd definitely buy from a knowledgeable reseller. The price difference vs direct is quite small unlike 210 and shorter blades. For example the 240 Denka gyuto is $707 from Knifewear and $685 direct from TF. Clear choice IMO.


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## panda (Jun 11, 2018)

I want to try one just because of the legend of his heat treat, but stainless cladding is deal breaker for me.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 11, 2018)

Depends for me love the rough stainless KU finish on the Kochi. Syousin Chiku also has a stainless Ku cladding. Different from polished soft stainless clad knives that get all beat up in the workplace.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 11, 2018)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Interesting insight. A new twist to what I did not know. So, people are paying matchbox 20 money for a TF Denka gyuto thats made by apprentices? Ummmm...... Cancel my order! Lol!



Do you seriously think if TF was working alone, forging and sharpening his knives, that the prices would be what they are? There are sources like the Epicurean Edge who charge a premium for knives that have a little more attention paid to F&F. I think they pay a $100 premium per knife for this special treatment and pass that on to the customer.


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## inzite (Jun 11, 2018)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Ha ha! Ya, you got a couple 1 in 25 knife Denkas. I could never plop down 800 bucks and pray I got a good 240 denka any longer.



as with TFs, buying in person is always the way to go, that or ask for loads of pics from diff angles.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 11, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Do you seriously think if TF was working alone, forging and sharpening his knives, that the prices would be what they are? There are sources like the Epicurean Edge who charge a premium for knives that have a little more attention paid to F&F. I think they pay a $100 premium per knife for this special treatment and pass that on to the customer.



Honestly, he gives you the impression that he makes your knives when communicating with him and it really doesnt seem like he is making a ton of knives due to the hit or miss reputation he has. Its certainly not pointed out on any of the forums Ive ever seen. It doesnt surprise me though as the business of Japanese knives is filled with smoke and mirrors. I have heard that the Takefu knife makers are mainly overseen apprentices and that kurosakis studio is filled with apprentices making his knives.


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## Barmoley (Jun 11, 2018)

Oh, they don't? Didn't know that, weird when I asked them end of March in an email they said they would, but maybe this changed.



labor of love said:


> Epic edge actually doesnt honor the forum discount for TF knives.


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## labor of love (Jun 11, 2018)

Maybe they changed their policy changed. Thats what they told me atleast 10 monthes ago.


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## captaincaed (Jun 12, 2018)

panda said:


> I want to try one just because of the legend of his heat treat, but stainless cladding is deal breaker for me.



Im one of the new guys, home cook, definitely liking stainless cladding. Is the preference against it a professional consideration or a personal preference?


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## panda (Jun 12, 2018)

personal preference, i dont like thinning it.


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## banjo1071 (Jun 12, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> There's a lot of variation. The 240 is considerably heavier than the 210 and shorter blades. I was told the main reason the 240 is almost 2x the cost of the 210 is that there is more material (core steel, I presume) involved in the manufacture. My 210mm Denka was particularly light at 174g and 51mm at heel.



Shirogami is one of the cheaper steels. I wouls rather assume this is pure marketing..


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## chinacats (Jun 12, 2018)

banjo1071 said:


> Shirogami is one of the cheaper steels. I wouls rather assume this is pure marketing..



Even for expensive steels that argument doesn't cut it...as stated just an excuse to charge more...labor is real cost of knife.


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## swarth (Jun 12, 2018)

I hope to one day own a knife that performs better than my TF Denka 240.

So far Shig, Kato, Kochi, and M Hinoura are out of their league.


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## Barmoley (Jun 12, 2018)

Out of their league how, cutting ability, food release, retention, etc. You listed very different knives, so just trying to get a sense of what better performance is to you. I would imagine retention would be better since Denka is very hard AS. Have you seen any micro chipping in your use? How's sharpenability compared to the ones you've listed? Thanks.


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## Sharpchef (Jun 12, 2018)

TF Knifes.... I tested two Denkas side by side, both nearly new.... Ohhh man one was very good the other one very bad..... F%F was awfull on both but as said one was extremely good! 

For pure performance, you need the right steel. Performance in my point of view is not only a laser cut, it means edge retention (so AS would be a good choice).... But there are more consistent and better knives available at the Dena price range.... Xerxes in 1.2562 cut ´s 2 times longer at least... And all of his knifes are superior in points of F%F and consistency.

Greets Sebastian.


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## Barmoley (Jun 12, 2018)

Xerxes in 1.2562 would be very cool to try out if it was possible to get, all of his knives are tough to get, at least in the US.


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## swarth (Jun 12, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> Out of their league how, cutting ability, food release, retention, etc. You listed very different knives, so just trying to get a sense of what better performance is to you. I would imagine retention would be better since Denka is very hard AS. Have you seen any micro chipping in your use? How's sharpenability compared to the ones you've listed? Thanks.



You will notice that the list of knives includes a range of grinds and geometries...for sure...that is part of the quest for "performance". So...in my experience...and to my preference...I have not found a better performing gyuto. In my kitchen that may mean something different than in yours. For me it has always been a balance of wedging and release... I can say that in its current state, there is no compromise.

Micro chipping is a function of bevel angles. I go for very thin primaries and a bit steeper edge. The HT from TF makes me look like I know what I am doing behind a stone. Ridiculous. I have never handled anything I can get sharper.


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## ashy2classy (Jun 12, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> Xerxes in 1.2562 would be very cool to try out if it was possible to get, all of his knives are tough to get, at least in the US.



I've been thinking about trying to get a proxy to order one for me. Really want a Xerxes (non-Primus) gyuto...


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## Barmoley (Jun 12, 2018)

Yeah, if you figure out how to do it, please let me know.


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## inzite (Jun 12, 2018)

swarth said:


> You will notice that the list of knives includes a range of grinds and geometries...for sure...that is part of the quest for "performance". So...in my experience...and to my preference...I have not found a better performing gyuto. In my kitchen that may mean something different than in yours. For me it has always been a balance of wedging and release... I can say that in its current state, there is no compromise.
> 
> Micro chipping is a function of bevel angles. I go for very thin primaries and a bit steeper edge. The HT from TF makes me look like I know what I am doing behind a stone. Ridiculous. I have never handled anything I can get sharper.



this.


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## swarth (Jun 12, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> Yeah, if you figure out how to do it, please let me know.



Me too. His site leaves nary a clue.


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## ashy2classy (Jun 12, 2018)

swarth said:


> Me too. His site leaves nary a clue.



Note on the contact page says he's not taking orders right now because wait times are over a year. I sent a message anyway to see if I could find general pricing. Looks like we'll have to wait a while to get on the list if we find a way to get on it.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 12, 2018)

Funny thing is that so many people have had bad denkas including me...... all you hear is how great they are from current owners. Wonder where all the bad denkas are? Lol! They just go away!


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## swarth (Jun 12, 2018)

Keep grinding that axe.


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## zitangy (Jun 12, 2018)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I have heard that the Takefu knife makers are mainly overseen apprentices and that kurosakis studio is filled with apprentices making his knives.



Dropped by his own workshop twice... Only other person i saw was a family member doing the finishing /polishing work. Where as in the Takefu knife village, the whole premises are shared and the number of power hammers and forge are already fixed. They cant expand anymore.

~Z


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## Nomsdotcom (Jun 12, 2018)

I'd be interested to see where Shi Han/Genrei stack up in this discussion. Seems like they fit the thick spined definition of a WH
Labor, do you have any imput?


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 12, 2018)

zitangy said:


> Dropped by his own workshop twice... Only other person i saw was a family member doing the finishing /polishing work. Where as in the Takefu knife village, the whole premises are shared and the number of power hammers and forge are already fixed. They cant expand anymore.
> 
> ~Z



Cool. Always wondered how Yu OEMs, has his own lines as well as dozens of house branded knives for dozens of worldwide retailers and does it all on his own. He must be a Superman!


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## HRC_64 (Jun 12, 2018)

Chicagohawkie said:


> He must be a Superman!



I stopped reading at the part where you sent TF your CAD drawings. :rofl:


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## swarth (Jun 12, 2018)

:goodpost:


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## MrHiggins (Jun 12, 2018)

Nomsdotcom said:


> I'd be interested to see where Shi Han/Genrei stack up in this discussion. Seems like they fit the thick spined definition of a WH
> Labor, do you have any imput?




I can weigh in - I've owned a 240 Shi Han mono carbon for a few months. If you search my posts in the Mazaki thread, I did a bit of a comparison, with photos and detailed, there. 

For purposes of this thread, you're right that they are a thick spined work horse. The grind is very high and came very nicely convexed on the right side. F&F is superb. Food release is better than on my Toyama 270, but not as good as on my Kochi. 

My only complaint with the Shi Han is that it is blade heavy in a way that doesn't fit my preferred feel. I am considering rehandling it, although the tapered ho-wood handle that's on it is top-notch (just too light for the knife, in my opinion).


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 12, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> I stopped reading at the part where you sent TF your CAD drawings. :rofl:



Ya, more like a childs rendering of what I basically wanted. Got almost the opposite of what I asked for. Ill make it easier for you asked for x, got y.


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## valgard (Jun 12, 2018)

Watanabe or Kato Standard for workhorse types.

Pure cutting (gyutos) Ikea/Kasahara Blue 1 or Halcyonforge Blue 2 (both midweight spine knives but ridiculously thin BTE).


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## parbaked (Jun 12, 2018)

valgard said:


> Pure cutting (gyutos) Ikea/Kasahara Blue 1 .



All the Ikea knives i bought sucked no matter who sharpened them...


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## valgard (Jun 12, 2018)

parbaked said:


> All the Ikea knives i bought sucked no matter who sharpened them...



:rofl2: autocorrect strikes again


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 12, 2018)

Seems like quite a few persons on this Forum own Denka's. I'm for the most part a bang for the buck guy the average cook thinks 200.00 is a lot for a knife. There are exceptions have met Cooks & students that are willing to spend more, but they are few and far between.

Always liked KU carbons, you can get fine cutting knives for relatively cheap. Older grind Takeda carbons with tall heels & great KU finish were about as high I would go on a knife. Really like my KU Watanabe. Since I got my Kochi become a fan of Stainless KU carbon core blades. So with the talk here decided to go for a Denka three month's ago. It was not in stock so asked for a blade with a rough KU finish, and a good grind. EE said they would pass this on to Fujiwara. Got the Ebony wa handle. They have not charged my card yet not until the knife is forged and delivered to EE. It is the most I have ever spent on a knife, don't mind like to support traditional forging esp. if the kind of blade I prefer. Kind of excited to see how it turns out.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 12, 2018)

Keith Sinclair said:


> So with the talk here decided to go for a Denka three month's ago. It was not in stock so asked for a blade with a rough KU finish,



Do you mean without the hammer marks? I have the Ku finish on my western handle 120 Maboroshi petty and really prefer it over the hammered, polished standard Maboroshi.

I thought Ebony Wa handles were no longer available from TF. Is EE installing one specially for your knife?


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## panda (Jun 12, 2018)

Shihan/ginrei look like a very good knife indeed. Not fan of the profile though.


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## Nomsdotcom (Jun 12, 2018)

panda said:


> Shihan/ginrei look like a very good knife indeed. Not fan of the profile though.


If I didn't have a Raquin lost somewhere in the mail I would have jumped on one already. What don't you like about the profile? Looks like a pretty nice flat spot imo


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## panda (Jun 12, 2018)

The nose


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## HRC_64 (Jun 12, 2018)

Nomsdotcom said:


> What don't you like about the profile? Looks like a pretty nice flat spot imo



One thing I've read is they lack distal taper


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## Nomsdotcom (Jun 12, 2018)

Wonder if he does customs...


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## labor of love (Jun 12, 2018)

He has a honyaki in the works. You guys remember who he worked under right? They might be very special knives.


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## Nomsdotcom (Jun 12, 2018)

labor of love said:


> He has a honyaki in the works. You guys remember who he worked under right? They might be very special knives.


Oh man, I'd love to see what he does with that. If his Jamons look anywhere as cool as his lamination lines that's bound to be a looker


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## panda (Jun 12, 2018)

i spoke with jon about it, he told me custom might be a possibility but he'd have to check with the maker.


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## Badgertooth (Jun 12, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> If I were looking at a 240 I'd definitely buy from a knowledgeable reseller. The price difference vs direct is quite small unlike 210 and shorter blades. For example the 240 Denka gyuto is $707 from Knifewear and $685 direct from TF. Clear choice IMO.



The key word is knowledgeable. The chances of someone at Knifewear applying the same kind of rigour and insight as you are expecting is slim.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 12, 2018)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Do you mean without the hammer marks? I have the Ku finish on my western handle 120 Maboroshi petty and really prefer it over the hammered, polished standard Maboroshi.
> 
> I thought Ebony Wa handles were no longer available from TF. Is EE installing one specially for your knife?




No Ku with hammer marks that's what I wanted. EE still offers the Wa Ebony all those are backorders for the gyuto's.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 12, 2018)

Keith Sinclair said:


> No Ku with hammer marks that's what I wanted. EE still offers the Wa Ebony all those are backorders for the gyuto's.



I'm confused. Isn't that how the Denka is usually shipped? Hammered with the black Ku finish.


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## MrHiggins (Jun 13, 2018)

Nomsdotcom said:


> Oh man, I'd love to see what he does with that. If his Jamons look anywhere as cool as his lamination lines that's bound to be a looker


I bugged the maker to do an iron cladded knife series with the same great lamination lines as his stainless. Not that I have any sway, mind you! Right now, I'm aesthetically drawn to knives that show a ton of core material and that are fully reactive. We'll see if after he makes a few honyaki he starts a new line...


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## Nomsdotcom (Jun 13, 2018)

MrHiggins said:


> I bugged the maker to do an iron cladded knife series with the same great lamination lines as his stainless. Not that I have any sway, mind you! Right now, I'm aesthetically drawn to knives that show a ton of core material and that are fully reactive. We'll see if after he makes a few honyaki he starts a new line...


He did mention he had some new stuff coming out over the summer in his Honyaki post


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## sac36555 (Jun 14, 2018)

I love my Toyama 240mm!!! Absolutely falls through food.


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## sac36555 (Jun 14, 2018)

Nomsdotcom said:


> Oh man, I'd love to see what he does with that. If his Jamons look anywhere as cool as his lamination lines that's bound to be a looker



Who are you guys referring to?


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## valgard (Jun 14, 2018)

sac36555 said:


> Who are you guys referring to?



Shehan Prull @shihanfineknives on IG


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## Nomsdotcom (Jun 14, 2018)

sac36555 said:


> Who are you guys referring to?


Shehan Prull 
https://www.instagram.com/shihanfineknives/


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## Nomsdotcom (Jun 14, 2018)

Beat me to it Valgard lol...


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## valgard (Jun 14, 2018)

:laughat:


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## Kristoff (Jun 14, 2018)

Old batch mizuno honyaki


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## sac36555 (Jun 14, 2018)

Nomsdotcom said:


> Shehan Prull
> https://www.instagram.com/shihanfineknives/



Isnt this the knives Jon carries? There was a review on these recently if Im not mistaken?


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## Barmoley (Jun 14, 2018)

Yes. Ginrei is Jon's line by this maker.


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## captaincaed (Jun 15, 2018)

labor of love said:


> He has a honyaki in the works. You guys remember who he worked under right? They might be very special knives.



Is his teacher a matter of public or private knowledge? I'd be curious to know.


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## parbaked (Jun 15, 2018)

This is from Sheehan's bio. http://www.shihanfineknives.com/about-native/

_"While visiting blacksmiths throughout the country I was fortunate to meet one of Japan's master knife-makers, Hiroshi Ashi, who kindly hosted me for the next two years.Thanks to his patronage I studied and practiced with many artisans in the city of Sakai, renown for its cutlery and bladesmithing."_

It's not accurate to say he worked under Ashi or considers Hiroshi-san his teacher. 
Hiroshi-san hosted him and helped his gain access to a variety of Sakai blade smiths, where he learned his craft.

I have one of his early 52100 kurouchi knives. His workmanship is excellent but the knife is nothing like the Ashi Swedish or White #2 knives I've used.


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## mattador (Jun 15, 2018)

I got a denka 240 from EE a few weeks ago and its been amazing. A lot more expensive than other sources but it brings peace of mind. I was lucky enough to pick one out in person and they have a solid return policy in the event you dont like it. 

I work in a pro kitchen and the edge retention on this knife blows everything else out the water. The finger notch is comfy, balance is perfect, feels like an extension of my arm, and the rustic look has a unique charm to it. 

The knife is definitely a little over priced and the performance per dollar can probably be had elsewhere but at this point I dont really care because Im happy with what I got. The workhorse gyuto slot in my bag is now permanently filled.


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## parbaked (Jun 15, 2018)

mattador said:


> I got a denka 240 from EE a few weeks ago and its been amazing. A lot more expensive than other sources but it brings peace of mind. I was lucky enough to pick one out in person and they have a solid return policy in the event you dont like it.



I stopped into Bernal on Wed and checked out their Denka and Maboroshi knives. 
I was at the TF shop in Tokyo in April and the F&F of the knives at Bernal were MUCH better than what I saw in Tokyo.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 15, 2018)

parbaked said:


> I stopped into Bernal on Wed and checked out their Denka and Maboroshi knives.
> I was at the TF shop in Tokyo in April and the F&F of the knives at Bernal were MUCH better than what I saw in Tokyo.



Interesting. Can you be more specific as to the areas on the knife that were better vs what is sold in TF Japan? Wonder if Bernal pay the EE premium to have a little more care and attention paid to F&F.


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## HRC_64 (Jun 15, 2018)

TF...if you have to ask "...", the answer is "no, you're not ready". :rofl:


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## ashy2classy (Jun 15, 2018)

mattador said:


> I got a denka 240 from EE a few weeks ago and its been amazing. A lot more expensive than other sources but it brings peace of mind. I was lucky enough to pick one out in person and they have a solid return policy in the event you dont like it.
> 
> I work in a pro kitchen and the edge retention on this knife blows everything else out the water. The finger notch is comfy, balance is perfect, feels like an extension of my arm, and the rustic look has a unique charm to it.
> 
> The knife is definitely a little over priced and the performance per dollar can probably be had elsewhere but at this point I dont really care because Im happy with what I got. The workhorse gyuto slot in my bag is now permanently filled.



Congrats on the pickup. EE is definitely steep on TF pricing, but all that matters is you like it. They're certainly excellent performers. Enjoy!


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## labor of love (Jun 15, 2018)

I misspoke when I said he worked under ashi. I didnt realize he didnt learn grinding and other tasks from observing ashi. Although he doesnt say in detail what he learned and where he learned it he does move rather quickly from talking about ashi to learning how to make knives which leaves me to believe much of what he understands he understands because of ashi.


parbaked said:


> This is from Sheehan's bio. http://www.shihanfineknives.com/about-native/
> 
> _"While visiting blacksmiths throughout the country I was fortunate to meet one of Japan's master knife-makers, Hiroshi Ashi, who kindly hosted me for the next two years.Thanks to his patronage I studied and practiced with many artisans in the city of Sakai, renown for its cutlery and bladesmithing."_
> 
> ...


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## DitmasPork (Jun 15, 2018)

Geez, choosing one is tough. A knife I'm often grabbing is my 240 Kato WH. I've used it for cutting udon noodles, ribs, fine julienne, piles of kale, filleting fish. It's heavier than most of my other gyutos, which hasn't been an issue, pretty nimble for its weight.



Atrain316 said:


> So if you guys could pick a workhorse knife no cost factored in what would it be. Anything from a shig to a carter to a Kramer what would it be?


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## parbaked (Jun 15, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Although he doesnt say in detail what he learned and where he learned it he does move rather quickly from talking about ashi to learning how to make knives which leaves me to believe much of what he understands he understands because of ashi.



No doubt, especially as Hiroshi Ashi is the only name he mentions. I was just trying make it clear that Sheehan didn't work or learn exclusively at Ashi. His agenda was to learn from a variety of blade smiths and he credits Hiroshi-san with helping to facilitate that...


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## JBroida (Jun 15, 2018)

parbaked said:


> This is from Sheehan's bio. http://www.shihanfineknives.com/about-native/
> 
> _"While visiting blacksmiths throughout the country I was fortunate to meet one of Japan's master knife-makers, Hiroshi Ashi, who kindly hosted me for the next two years.Thanks to his patronage I studied and practiced with many artisans in the city of Sakai, renown for its cutlery and bladesmithing."_
> 
> ...



Nope... he actually worked there under Ashi-San too... totally accurate to say he worked under him


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## captaincaed (Jun 19, 2018)

DitmasPork said:


> Geez, choosing one is tough. A knife I'm often grabbing is my 240 Kato WH. I've used it for cutting udon noodles, ribs, fine julienne, piles of kale, filleting fish. It's heavier than most of my other gyutos, which hasn't been an issue, pretty nimble for its weight.



Thanks for including the gorgeous art on this one. There are tons of words, but the romance of these fine tools really lives in the visuals.


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