# Who does the best heat treat on Aogami Super?



## khashy (Feb 21, 2017)

Subjective question, asking for personal opinions.

I know for example Sukenari used to get their AS line to something like 67HRC.

I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing but I think failure rates were so high that they have scaled it back to around 63HRC.

I'm not aware of anyone else that does something special to AS.

What are your thoughts on who does a standout job on HT for AS?


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## jklip13 (Feb 21, 2017)

I've used AS from 5-7 makers and Takeda blows them out of the water. It might not only be the heat treat, but also the unique geometry of his knives.


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## khashy (Feb 21, 2017)

jklip13 said:


> I've used AS from 5-7 makers and Takeda blows them out of the water. It might not only be the heat treat, but also the unique geometry of his knives.



I assume we're talking about the old stock?


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## jklip13 (Feb 21, 2017)

Nope within the past 3 years


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## khashy (Feb 21, 2017)

jklip13 said:


> Nope within the past 3 years



Ah! I have never tried any Takedas. Just a lot of internet reading about the newer knives not being on par with the old ones.


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## jklip13 (Feb 21, 2017)

I dunno where that comes from, I think the new ones wedge less than the older ones


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## khashy (Feb 21, 2017)

jklip13 said:


> I dunno where that comes from, I think the new ones wedge less than the older ones



This was from a thread on kkfora in april 2014. Much heated debate. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link here.


In any case that's irrelevant really as I asked for personal opinion and you were kind enough to put yours forward.


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## jklip13 (Feb 21, 2017)

Oh I've read through it. In my opinion (almost all across the board) the knives being made today are better than the ones produced before. This goes for Takeda, Ikeda, Doi, Shigefusa and a bunch of others. That's just my opinion. I do understand the appeal of having something that no one else can get anymore though.


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## Godslayer (Feb 21, 2017)

Takeda or terayusa fujiwara are probably the best users. Terayusa getting my nod


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## khashy (Feb 21, 2017)

Godslayer said:


> Takeda or terayusa fujiwara are probably the best users. Terayusa getting my nod



How high on HRC scale does TF take his Denka's?


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## labor of love (Feb 21, 2017)

Sukenari AS is heat treated really high(if that's what you're into). I personally think takeda heat treat is pretty damn amazing.


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## preizzo (Feb 21, 2017)

I find masakage koishi to be one of the most impressive as steel I ever held in my hands.


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## brooksie967 (Feb 21, 2017)

My Takeda wedged terribly. Thinning and easing of the shoulders has made a gigantic improvement in it's cutting ability. It drops through everything now and It'll never leave my kitchen!


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## khashy (Feb 21, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Sukenari AS is heat treated really high(if that's what you're into). I personally think takeda heat treat is pretty damn amazing.



Yeah, I don't think they do that anymore. I wonder what on earth 68HRC AS is like to cut with


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## khashy (Feb 21, 2017)

preizzo said:


> I find masakage koishi to be one of the most impressive as steel I ever held in my hands.



I read a lot about the Koishi, was seriously going to get one in the masakage sale. Then I came across this video:

[video]https://youtu.be/2M8wPdX2240[/video]

Not that this is saying anything about heat treat btw.


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## khashy (Feb 21, 2017)

brooksie967 said:


> My Takeda wedged terribly. Thinning and easing of the shoulders has made a gigantic improvement in it's cutting ability. It drops through everything now and It'll never leave my kitchen!



That's three for Takeda


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## valgard (Feb 21, 2017)

khashy said:


> I read a lot about the Koishi, was seriously going to get one in the masakage sale. Then I came across this video:
> 
> [video]https://youtu.be/2M8wPdX2240[/video]
> 
> Not that this is saying anything about heat treat btw.



That's why only a single video should not be enough to judge. I haven't tried my Koishi on cabbage yet so I can't speak about how it performs there but I can tell you that it does a LOT better than in the video for food release on potatoes. However, I still reach for the Munetoshi for potatoes as it has pretty good food release https://www.instagram.com/p/BQuL_B5DOj7/.

I don't have a video of the Koishi but could try to make one (it's a PITA to make a video in my kitchen and with what I have).


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## foody518 (Feb 21, 2017)

khashy said:


> I read a lot about the Koishi, was seriously going to get one in the masakage sale. Then I came across this video:
> 
> [video]https://youtu.be/2M8wPdX2240[/video]
> 
> Not that this is saying anything about heat treat btw.



That video just makes me think - okay, don't use a wide beveled gyuto to split cabbage. 

For the little it might be worth, Moritaka website says they take the hardness on their AS knives up to 65...


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## DanDan (Feb 21, 2017)

valgard said:


> That's why only a single video should not be enough to judge. I haven't tried my Koishi on cabbage yet so I can't speak about how it performs there but I can tell you that it does a LOT better than in the video for food release on potatoes. However, I still reach for the Munetoshi for potatoes as it has pretty good food release https://www.instagram.com/p/BQuL_B5DOj7/.
> 
> I don't have a video of the Koishi but could try to make one (it's a PITA to make a video in my kitchen and with what I have).



Did rounding the choil/spine out make a considerable difference? I'm procrastinating on doing that to my Yuki. Fair point about that video, I can't lie and say I didn't jump to conclusions after watching it the first time. There are quite a few Koishi videos where they're looking good, might've just been a dud. Still reinforces my belief in large variability in finish of Masakage.


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## valgard (Feb 21, 2017)

DanDan said:


> Did rounding the choil/spine out make a considerable difference? I'm procrastinating on doing that to my Yuki. Fair point about that video, I can't lie and say I didn't jump to conclusions after watching it the first time. There are quite a few Koishi videos where they're looking good, might've just been a dud. Still reinforces my belief in large variability in finish of Masakage.



Having held several Koishi in the Knifewear store here in Calgary I can confirm there is a BIG variability from knife to knife. In my case it did make a difference rounding the spine and choil as it was almost sharp OOTB. It took a bit of work but not many tools and it now feels nice to hold.


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## sergeysus (Feb 22, 2017)

Another vote for Takada in AS. I've used/use several others Hiro, Masakage, Kurosaki and even a Kohetsu. Im also very biased I have so many of the Takedas.... always easy to sharpen, take a great edge. 

I've only chipped an edge once by accidently 'hitting' the sink while washing.


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## panda (Feb 22, 2017)

takeda for sure


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## khashy (Feb 22, 2017)

Seems like Takeda wins it by quite a few miles


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## supersayan3 (Feb 22, 2017)

There are still Sukenari Damascus 66-67, harder than fujiwara Denka, harder than Sukenari zdp or Honyaki still left at koki. 27cm, must be 25-25.5 true length. For the hardness they have and the fit and finish(top and rounded), they are a steal compared to Denka. If I had spare money this period, I would had gotten one, they will not be produced again


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## supersayan3 (Feb 22, 2017)

The 24cm that I have is very stiff, and suits me better for rock chopping than vertical cutting. But the profile of the 27cm will be different, so I cannot tell. Also feels hard.
Haven't sharpened it yet, use it for home so far, after 2 weeks of light home use and not drying it immediately, it doesn't have the initial sharpness, but still pretty sharp. 
Also, after this light controlled use, no chippy. But haven't used it in a harsh environment


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 22, 2017)

The Sukenari Damascus is a beautiful knife, but it is heavier and stiffer than Takeda, a different kind of blade. Some aspects i love about Takeda is that it is lighter for its size and yet it can take some abuse. Also, it has a good food release. Teruyasu's Denka has that lighter quality also.


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## supersayan3 (Feb 22, 2017)

Can't tell about the weight, don't have Takeda or Denka to compare(thought I want a Denka a lot ), but yes, it is as stiff as they come. Feels hard while you cut as well.
There are many many knives worth mentioning.
I mentioned that one, for the sole reason that it scores as high in hardness as possible, and that makes it unique


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## Matus (Feb 22, 2017)

My only experience with AS is masakage koishi and I sure can not complain about the HT 

But I have not seen anyone to actually really complain about an AS knife. Together with the fact that that this is a steel with relatively high alloy content it has rather narrow window fir HT - maybe that leaves too little space for 'experimentation' and makers simply follow the same recipe in a controlled environment.


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## khashy (Feb 22, 2017)

Matus said:


> My only experience with AS is masakage koishi and I sure can not complain about the HT
> 
> But I have not seen anyone to actually really complain about an AS knife. Together with the fact that that this is a steel with relatively high alloy content it has rather narrow window fir HT - maybe that leaves too little space for 'experimentation' and makers simply follow the same recipe in a controlled environment.



Yup, spot on. Except Sukenari that went above and beyond for a short while


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## aboynamedsuita (Feb 22, 2017)

I had a sukenari Damascus gyuto from JCK in 2015 and koki said they were only 64ish HRC, the same as the single bevels at the time. Perhaps the super high was from before JCK started carrying them, I know the K&S article mentioned changing at some point, but it was published after I think.

I agree with jklip Takeda seems pretty good, I like the Hinoura as gyuto I have too


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## supersayan3 (Feb 23, 2017)

Koki doesn't always care to know such details precisely.
He considers the whole value of the knife. 
I had send him before I bought it the "visit to Sukenari" link by James, and asked him specifically about the hardness. 
He offered to call Sukenari to ask and report back. Then he told me that yes!, they are 66-67.,, and I ordered one [emoji4]

You remember how hard and absolute stiff it felt?


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## nepastovus (Feb 23, 2017)

I'd say Takeda is pretty darn good AS blade.


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