# Toishi Ohishi, anyone know anything about these?



## Hanzo (Mar 12, 2018)

I have recently been broadening my horizon, and find myself shaving with a kamisori razor, and getting into woodworking. Both of these takes alot of sharpening, and I found a local supplier selling Lie Nielsen planes, and Toishi Ohishi waterstones. Lie Nielsen is considered amount the best planes money can buy, and they recommend Toishi Ohishi for all their tools. I'm in Norway, and a huge cost for me is shipping and customs, so a 100$ sharpeningstone can almost double in cost by the time it reaches me.

So, getting these stones locally, seems like a very good deal. They seem to be well known with woodworker, for sharpening chisels and planes, and I also see they are used for razors. I dont know these at all, but I was hopeing someone here could tell me something about these. I would like something that can be used for all my sharpening needs, knives, tools and razors.

So, have anyone heard of these stones, and would care to share their opinion on them?


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## Jovidah (Mar 12, 2018)

Don't know the stones, but if you're absolutely hellbent on getting these: www.cleancut.se sells them. At good prices too.


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## PalmRoyale (Mar 12, 2018)

Hanzo said:


> Lie Nielsen is considered amount the best planes money can buy



Lie Nielsen makes money by making gullible amateur woodworkers believe they need a $400 plane to make a quality piece of whatever. They're a bunch of con artists.


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## StonedEdge (Mar 12, 2018)

PalmRoyale said:


> Lie Nielsen makes money by making gullible amateur woodworkers believe they need a $400 plane to make a quality piece of whatever. They're a bunch of con artists.


PalmRoyale you're a straight shooter and I dig that.


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## K813zra (Mar 12, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> PalmRoyale you're a straight shooter and I dig that.



Me too but his avatar gives me nightmares. Lol.


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## PalmRoyale (Mar 12, 2018)

22 years of experience as a shipwright has taught me a thing or 2 about hand tools :wink:


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## Hanzo (Mar 12, 2018)

Well, that leaves me with two things 

1: What type plane to you recommend
2: what 10k stone should I get for my razor and knives if the Toshi is overprices


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## larrybard (Mar 12, 2018)

"Me too but his avatar gives me nightmares."

+!


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## PalmRoyale (Mar 12, 2018)

Hanzo said:


> Well, that leaves me with two things
> 
> 1: What type plane to you recommend
> 2: what 10k stone should I get for my razor and knives if the Toshi is overprices



1: Preferable an old Record or Stanley from before the 1960. I have a Record #3 from 1956 that I bought on ebay for 45 pounds. I cleaned it up, flattened the frog and sole, put a Veritas PM-V11 blade in it (yes, PM-V11 is worth the money) and it's a great performer that will do anything an overpriced and overweight Lie Nielsen will do.
2: I don't know anything about those stones. I just know Lie Nielsen makes overpriced tools that will never make you a better woodworker.


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## PalmRoyale (Mar 17, 2018)

Here's a pic of my all time favourite hand plane. My old Record #3 from 1956 with a knob and modified handle I made for it. I've never liked the standard forward leaning handle with the exaggerated curve. It does everything a Lie Nielsen does at a fraction of the cost.

Why? Because tool porn :laugh:


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## MindTone (Mar 17, 2018)

PalmRoyale said:


> Why? Because tool porn :laugh:



Did someone say tool porn? :viking:
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/2016/08/04/hikouki-kanna-blade-prep/
https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/2016/08/11/kanna-dai-prep/


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## PalmRoyale (Mar 17, 2018)

There's just one big problem with Japanese planes, you can't adjust them on the fly. With the Bailey type plane you can adjust the depth and lateral position of the blade as you plane. This makes it a much more efficient design.

And something I always notice with guys like Brian Holcombe is how obsessed they are with flat bevels. A convex bevel is much stronger and far easier to sharpen. I grab the blade at the top with one hand, push it down at the end on the stone with my other and when you go back and forth over the stone this automatically creates a convex bevel. You don't have to worry about the angle as long as you stay under 45 degrees (The tip of my plane blade ends around 35 degrees). With this method you have a blade back to sharpness in less than 2 minutes. A few swipes on the Atoma 600 to create a burr, a few swipes on the Atoma 1200 followed by a few swipes on the Sigma 6000, flip it over and do the back to remove any remaining burr and you're done.


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## BHolcombe (Mar 17, 2018)

PalmRoyale said:


> There's just one big problem with Japanese planes, you can't adjust them on the fly. With the Bailey type plane you can adjust the depth and lateral position of the blade as you plane. This makes it a much more efficient design.
> 
> And something I always notice with guys like Brian Holcombe is how obsessed they are with flat bevels. A convex bevel is much stronger and far easier to sharpen. I grab the blade at the top with one hand, push it down at the end on the stone with my other and when you go back and forth over the stone this automatically creates a convex bevel. You don't have to worry about the angle as long as you stay under 45 degrees (The tip of my plane blade ends around 35 degrees). With this method you have a blade back to sharpness in less than 2 minutes. A few swipes on the Atoma 600 to create a burr, a few swipes on the Atoma 1200 followed by a few swipes on the Sigma 6000, flip it over and do the back to remove any remaining burr and you're done.



You can definitely adjust Japanese planes on the fly, I do every time I use them. I use both western and Japanese planes, I find both pretty straightforward and easy to work with. Japanese planes are untouchable on softwoods and western planes a little easier to work with on hardwoods.

A flat bevel is not a requirement, but certainly with Japanese planes you need to find a sweet spot between edge retention and clearance angle and it's easiest if that is a known variable. The bed is 38 degrees so if you're putting a 45 degree angle on your blade then you're not going to be able to take a cut. Ideal tends to be around 25 degrees but I find most often I'm happiest around 28 degrees.

Edge failure mode is the best indicator of what the edge wants, I'm sure we can agree on that. These edges are not failing from chips or heavy degradation, instead they simply fail by no longer being able to take a cut. That is the point at which the wear bevel has removed the necessary clearance required to take a cut. If the edge were failing from degradation or chipping then I feel you'd have a stronger case for a convex bevel. I tend to use convex bevel on kitchen knives rather than tools.

Takes me 5-6 minutes to hone the blade, this is slow by comparison to guys on the job site or working under a boss in Japan who are required to do it under 4 minutes. I am the boss, so I take the extra 2 minutes and get it how I want it.

Maintaining a flat bevel is easier over time since it's always the same, a convex requires you to reset every once in a while when you get to far away from ideal. It's not easier to sharpen in my experience.


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## PalmRoyale (Mar 17, 2018)

BHolcombe said:


> You can definitely adjust Japanese planes on the fly


With a Bailey type plane it's a matter of turning the wheel. How do you adjust the depth on the fly with a Japanese plane? I'm genuinely curious about this. It is a matter of a light tap with a hammer on the blade or the back of the kanna without turning the plane around? It seems to me an adjustment wheel is easier because you can adjust the depth even during planing.



> A flat bevel is not a requirement, but certainly with Japanese planes you need to find a sweet spot between edge retention and clearance angle and it's easiest if that is a known variable. The bed is 38 degrees so if you're putting a 45 degree angle on your blade then you're not going to be able to take a cut. Ideal tends to be around 25 degrees but I find most often I'm happiest around 28 degrees.


With a western plane you also need to find a sweet spot as with any blade. My blade ends at 35 degree angle while you shoot for a 28 degree angle so we both end up with the same 10 degree relief angle.



> Edge failure mode is the best indicator of what the edge wants, I'm sure we can agree on that. These edges are not failing from chips or heavy degradation, instead they simply fail by no longer being able to take a cut. That is the point at which the wear bevel has removed the necessary clearance required to take a cut. If the edge were failing from degradation or chipping then I feel you'd have a stronger case for a convex bevel. I tend to use convex bevel on kitchen knives rather than tools.


The main reason for a convex bevel is muscle memory. I've been sharpening like this since I got my first real job as a shipwright. I don't even have to think about what I'm doing. The tip of the blade is always at 35 degrees (plus or minus 1 degree). Having said that, you can't dispute a convex bevel is stronger.



> Maintaining a flat bevel is easier over time since it's always the same, a convex requires you to reset every once in a while when you get to far away from ideal. It's not easier to sharpen in my experience.


I disagree. 22 years of muscle memory never fails me. The bevel on my plane blade always starts at 35 degrees and ends at 30 degrees. Or vice versa, however you want to see it.

And just to clarify, My comment wasn't a personal attack. I just get so tired of all these self proclaimed experts on youtube and woodworking forums who harp on about a mirror polish and flat bevels but they can't even sharpen a blade freehand. They've probably never worked in a production environment a day in their lives but they think they know it all. Looking at your portfolio I can see you're not one of them so sorry for my comment.


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## BHolcombe (Mar 17, 2018)

Thanks, I appreciate your comment. I dont dispute that a convex bevel is stronger. I just prefer flat bevels because most of the time I chop by riding the bevel on chisels and prefer the ease self jigging on Japanese planes. 

Tap on the back of blade with a hammer to move it forward, tap on the dai to move it back, same with side to side. I like adjuster planes as well but tapping is good and can be an extremely fine adjustment. True you cant adjust in the cut, I normally sight down the sole to see my adjustment as I make it.


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## PalmRoyale (Mar 17, 2018)

The bevel on my chisels isnt a true convex bevel. I slightly round over the tip on my suita. It's just a tiny bit but enough to make the edge a lot stonger. Just like you I also ride the bevel when I'm chopping so I need most of the bevel to be flat.


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