# Newbie to sharpening stones



## Rook83 (Oct 8, 2016)

Hi guys, I have a quick question on sharpening stones...I use sharpening stones to sharpen my straight razor for shaving, but have never used one on kitchen knives...I have a Schmidt Brothers chef's knife, along with a set of Furi knives (Rachel Ray ones given to us as a wedding present). I have never sharpened the Schmidt Brothers one, only used a honing steel rod. My Furi knives are extremely dull...as in I could run it across my finger and not even cut it...should I get some whetstones for this? I've tried the pull throughs and had poor results...should I get a 600 grit and a 1000 grit stone, or are these knives beyond sharpening? I am looking to buy a carbon steel knife set, but really don't know what to look for...I want razor sharp knives, as I do a lot of cooking...I saw a Victorinox set and a Henckels set, but really have no idea what I'm looking for...I found a few whetstones for about $30...thanks in advance!


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## ThEoRy (Oct 8, 2016)

Let's find you a proper gyuto first. Then we will learn to properly sharpen it.


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## Rook83 (Oct 8, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> Let's find you a proper gyuto first. Then we will learn to properly sharpen it.



Do you have any suggestions that won't break the bank? Also, the Schmidt Brother's Chef knife is German high carbon steel...can this be made razor sharp using whetstones? I typically am having issues with tomatoes and extremely tender meats...I would like a knife that can make razor thin slices...


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## ThEoRy (Oct 8, 2016)

Yeah you need a new knife. What's your budget?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 8, 2016)

Victorinox and Henckels are not carbon steel.

GOOD Henckels are as expensive as a very usable J-Knife. And still not carbon steel.

Unless some fool tried to sharpen your old knives on a dry machine (see other thread), they are not beyond sharpening. But keeping them razor sharp will be frustrating - your best bet for something that you can keep razor sharp for a usable length of time might be something made of either White #1 (a carbon steel*) or SG-2 (not a carbon steel).

I would recommend a 240/800 combo if you really want to fix dull knives, for sharpening what's already sharp, get something like a 1000/6000 (the famous King) or 3000/8000 combo.

*I still have the impression W#1 will keep THAT sharp longer than even AS, though keeping a usable edge in the long run is a different matter. Someone correct me if I am objectively mistaken there...


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## Rook83 (Oct 8, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> Yeah you need a new knife. What's your budget?



I'm thinking like $150? I'm not really sure as this is the first time I'm buying knives...I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, I would only need a chef's knife, a utility knife and maybe one other piece. I have a bread knife and cheese knife...but I mainly just cut vegetables and beef and chicken...I don't think I need anything too fancy...


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## Rook83 (Oct 8, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Victorinox and Henckels are not carbon steel.
> 
> GOOD Henckels are as expensive as a very usable J-Knife. And still not carbon steel.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the response...I guess these manufacturers use words that are kinda deceptive...or at least I'm not understanding...They say German SS or German High carbon...I'll check out some whetstones for the dull stainless steel ones I have...and I'll certainly check out the White #1 knife...


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## Noodle Soup (Oct 8, 2016)

Your knives may not hold an edge as long as some here would like but there is nothing that should keep them from taking a razor keen edge in the first place. And I have used Furi knives so this isn't all just theory. 
If you can hone straight razors I'm going to assume you already understand the basics of sharpening reasonably well. What you need is a fairly coarse stone to work them back down to a starting place and then maybe a couple of more stones in the 1000 and 2000 to 4000 range.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 8, 2016)

"high carbon stainless" and "carbon steel" are two different things. To prevent misunderstandings: "carbon steel" in knife circles always refers to non-stainless steels. White #1,2,3 , Yellow #1,2,3 , Blue #1,2,AS (not Silver #3, which is a quality stainless steel!) are types of quality carbon steels commonly used in japanese made knives. Steels have names, usually a maker that does not tell you which steel they use has something to hide - typical western stainless steels would be 420J2 ( eg Cut Above), 1.4116 (eg WMF, probably Wüsthof, and a lot of other German brands. X50CrMOv, Cromova-anything, anything mentioning Chrome and Molybdenum and Vanadium - similar stuff ), 440A,B,C (eg American brands); if no steel is named, assume 420J2 if <$50 for an 8 inch and a variant of 1.4116 if above  Super high quality stainless (VG-1,5,7,10, SG-2, aforementioned Silver #3, ZDP-189, HAP40) tends to find its way into the description, sometimes under proprietary names (CMV60 assumed VG-10,MC63 assumed SG-2, MC66/MD67 assumed ZDP-189


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## ThEoRy (Oct 8, 2016)

Rook83 said:


> I'm thinking like $150? I'm not really sure as this is the first time I'm buying knives...I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, I would only need a chef's knife, a utility knife and maybe one other piece. I have a bread knife and cheese knife...but I mainly just cut vegetables and beef and chicken...I don't think I need anything too fancy...



Yup, gyuto and petty will cover you for almost all of your work.

Now which would you prefer, a western style handle or an octagonal?


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## Rook83 (Oct 8, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> Yup, gyuto and petty will cover you for almost all of your work.
> 
> Now which would you prefer, a western style handle or an octagonal?



I think I'd rather have a western style handle...


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## Rook83 (Oct 8, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "high carbon stainless" and "carbon steel" are two different things. To prevent misunderstandings: "carbon steel" in knife circles always refers to non-stainless steels. White #1,2,3 , Yellow #1,2,3 , Blue #1,2,AS (not Silver #3, which is a quality stainless steel!) are types of quality carbon steels commonly used in japanese made knives. Steels have names, usually a maker that does not tell you which steel they use has something to hide - typical western stainless steels would be 420J2 ( eg Cut Above), 1.4116 (eg WMF, probably Wüsthof, and a lot of other German brands. X50CrMOv, Cromova-anything, anything mentioning Chrome and Molybdenum and Vanadium - similar stuff ), 440A,B,C (eg American brands); if no steel is named, assume 420J2 if <$50 for an 8 inch and a variant of 1.4116 if above  Super high quality stainless (VG-1,5,7,10, SG-2, aforementioned Silver #3, ZDP-189, HAP40) tends to find its way into the description, sometimes under proprietary names (CMV60 assumed VG-10,MC63 assumed SG-2, MC66/MD67 assumed ZDP-189



Wow! You have a dearth of knowledge of steels...I need to figure out what I want for the best price...I was just thinking high carbon steel because my straight razor is made of that and will slice like crazy! Haha! I just want tomatoes and meat that effortlessly slices thinly and not mush them...


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## Rook83 (Oct 8, 2016)

Noodle Soup said:


> Your knives may not hold an edge as long as some here would like but there is nothing that should keep them from taking a razor keen edge in the first place. And I have used Furi knives so this isn't all just theory.
> If you can hone straight razors I'm going to assume you already understand the basics of sharpening reasonably well. What you need is a fairly coarse stone to work them back down to a starting place and then maybe a couple of more stones in the 1000 and 2000 to 4000 range.



I'm going to check out those stones...I'll buy new knives, but I still want to put an edge on these other knives so they're not a complete waste! Thanks!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 8, 2016)

@ThEoRy you dislike oval wa handles, I gather?


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## malexthekid (Oct 8, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @ThEoRy you dislike oval wa handles, I gather?



I think he was just generalising to the two majors


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## Rook83 (Oct 8, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @ThEoRy you dislike oval wa handles, I gather?



Not necessarily dislike...the oval handle ones I've previously owned always felt kind of awkward in my hand haha


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 8, 2016)

Nope, these are the steel types everyone here can recite in their sleep. Oh, and there's also different tempers (hardness. depends on the knife maker not the steel type, but different steel types have a different range of usable hardness) used of each 

Oh: Nobody here yet asked a rather important question, do you prefer to rock chop (supporting tip on cutting board, like the germans) or push chop/slice (working all from the wrist, like the chinese with their big bad cleavers)?


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## ThEoRy (Oct 8, 2016)

I don't dislike them. I was just mentioning the more common style. Though I do prefer octagonals to D style or oval.


Have a look at these Gesshin Stainless knives from JKI:

210mm https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-210mm-stainless-gyuto

240mm https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gesshin-240mm-stainless-gyuto

or the Gonbei 210mm https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gonbei-aus-10-210mm-gyuto

and the 240mm https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/gyuto/products/gonbei-aus-10-240mm-gyuto

For waterstones look into the tried and true, often recommended and very affordable Bester 1200 and Suehiro Rika 5000


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 8, 2016)

I guess these would be soft and hard enough to deal with either usage scenario


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## Rook83 (Oct 8, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Nope, these are the steel types everyone here can recite in their sleep. Oh, and there's also different tempers (hardness. depends on the knife maker not the steel type, but different steel types have a different range of usable hardness) used of each
> 
> Oh: Nobody here yet asked a rather important question, do you prefer to rock chop (supporting tip on cutting board, like the germans) or push chop/slice (working all from the wrist, like the chinese with their big bad cleavers)?



Great question...I think I like the slicing action better than rock chop...although I've never really thought about it haha!


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## Rook83 (Oct 8, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> I don't dislike them. I was just mentioning the more common style. Though I do prefer octagonals to D style or oval.
> 
> 
> Have a look at these Gesshin Stainless knives from JKI:
> ...



Thanks so much for the suggestions...I will certainly check them out!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 9, 2016)

Rick, you're the technique master here, so I'd rather bounce the question towards you whether a santoku and/or harder temper/real carbon steel would not suit him better with his technique.


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## daveb (Oct 9, 2016)

I've gifted a few of the Gesshin Stainless and keep one around. Excellent 1st "good" knife. Much better value than Shun, Myiabi, and similar ilk. Also like Suisin Western Inox in this category.

@Life - Santoku and "him" don't belong in same sentance. :sly:


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## ThEoRy (Oct 9, 2016)

My wife likes her santoku.


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## daveb (Oct 9, 2016)

I've owned a Shig and have used a Wustie, and everything in between. Santoku just does not feel right - unless I'm wearing heels..


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 10, 2016)

Is using a knife derived from European (tip fulcrum optimized) designs for technique that seems tailored to either a nakiri or a petty (at least that is what most Gyutoism looks to me as a still-beginner: either the flats are taken advantage of to push-slice, or the tip is used like that on a petty or deba to do nimble things) not equally odd?

..

Looking at Rick's videos, I notice that we find a showcase of tip-fulcrum style in the squash coulis, and a push/draw sliced mango salsa... and gyutos being used in both cases--- but certainly not the same knives ... was the choice random, or was the knife at hand adapted to in choice of technique?


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## ThEoRy (Oct 10, 2016)

I don't know it looks like a lot of push cutting in both videos. I just happened to have different knives at the time, it's completely random. I think technique is adapted to the product being cut however. To me anyway the gyuto is more versatile to a variety of product and technique than a santoku will ever be. Not sure about nakiri as I've never had one before but I imagine it would be limited by it's length and shape.


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## Rook83 (Oct 11, 2016)

So I'm leaning towards the Tojiro DP 210mm, strictly because of the price. I know its totally entry level, and I think even entry level will beat the crap out of what I'm using...my question is what is the difference between shirogami and the vg10...I believe the shirogami is white carbon steel and will require a little more maintenance. So which one will have a sharper edge? And which one will keep an edge longer? Thanks for all the info!


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## Rook83 (Oct 11, 2016)

Also, I was thinking of 210mm to start off with. Thanks!


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## ThEoRy (Oct 11, 2016)

I would stay away from the shirogami tojiro. In my experience it's really thick behind the edge, has poor fit and finish, gets pretty sharp easily but not so great edge retention and is a bit reactive.

The DP is a bit better choice at this price point. While not a thin knife itself it has better fit and finish and is stainless. The vg10 gets sharp with practice but doesn't have great edge retention either although a bit better than the shirogami.


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## Rook83 (Oct 11, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> I would stay away from the shirogami tojiro. In my experience it's really thick behind the edge, has poor fit and finish, gets pretty sharp easily but not so great edge retention and is a bit reactive.
> 
> The DP is a bit better choice at this price point. While not a thin knife itself it has better fit and finish and is stainless. The vg10 gets sharp with practice but doesn't have great edge retention either although a bit better than the shirogami.



Thanks so much Theory...I appreciate you letting me pick your brain! So I'll order the DP, with a few whetstones (I currently have a Naniwa 12K, and some other coarse grit stones for restoring blades/razors, but I was thinking about getting a 1K/3K combo). And also, should I use a ceramic rod before each use? Just to straighten and not sharpen? And lastly, is there a cutting board you recommend? I know high end grain, but I don't know of any I've seen at a local store. Thanks!


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## ThEoRy (Oct 11, 2016)

If you want a really cheap combo stone just get the King 1k/6k. Rods can extend the time between sharpenings if used properly but some would argue you would be doing more harm than good. As a home cook I don't think you'll need the rod but if you have to get one get the black ceramic from Mac. For a cutting board I would recommend SaniTuff. It's a low impact rubber board. I've purchased dozens of them for work. If you can, get the 3/4" thick ones as the 1/2" can warp over time.


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## Rook83 (Oct 11, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> If you want a really cheap combo stone just get the King 1k/6k. Rods can extend the time between sharpenings if used properly but some would argue you would be doing more harm than good. As a home cook I don't think you'll need the rod but if you have to get one get the black ceramic from Mac. For a cutting board I would recommend SaniTuff. It's a low impact rubber board. I've purchased dozens of them for work. If you can, get the 3/4" thick ones as the 1/2" can warp over time.



Once again, thanks so much for the thoughtful responses!


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## Bolek (Oct 12, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> If you want a really cheap combo stone just get the King 1k/6k. Rods can extend the time between sharpenings if used properly but some would argue you would be doing more harm than good. As a home cook I don't think you'll need the rod but *if you have to get one get the black ceramic from Mac*. For a cutting board I would recommend SaniTuff. It's a low impact rubber board. I've purchased dozens of them for work. If you can, get the 3/4" thick ones as the 1/2" can warp over time.


How do you select a ceramic rod ? What make the black ceramic from Mac better than others ?


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## richard (Oct 12, 2016)

It's supposed to be even finer/higher grit than other fine rods, and if I'm not mistaken, there is a stiff rubber core inside as a shock absorber to prevent it from snapping when dropped. But prices for other decent ceramic rods have fallen and can be compelling. The regular Mac SR85 ceramic rod is only $20 free ship from Amazon. For the price of Mac black, you could almost buy three of these.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 13, 2016)

Guess the problem with ceramic rods that they are in the end a whetstone - and one of unspecified grit and disadvantageous shape at that.

For "pure" honing, a polished metal rod (controversial whether these should touch very hard knives) or an unloaded strop (leather or paper) are used.


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## ThEoRy (Oct 13, 2016)

The Mac is 2000 grit.


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