# Amusingly silly typical Cooks Illustrated Knife Review



## gic (Oct 15, 2014)

So the current issue has a review of carbon knives and while they rate the Zwilling Kramer as superb, they also say that the Victorinox is essentially as good as it and also better than quite a few other carbon steel knives. (In some case their main complaint seems to be about OOB sharpness, don't these guys own a set of stones??) 

Anyway, it is worth a read and then a chuckle. (And mind you I do think the Victorinox is a truly fine value for the money but almost as good as the Zwilling Kramer, sheesh...)


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## SameGuy (Oct 15, 2014)

Knives are a lot like many other esoteric things, reaching the point of diminishing returns rather quickly. For instance, racing bicycles: a $1000 bike is easily twice as good as a $500 one, and a $2000 one is likely quite a bit better than the $1000 model. But is an $8000 dream machine really that much better than a $4000 beauty? How much better is it than a good $1000 bike?

Knives cut, some better than others. Some of the better cutters don't happen to be too expensive at all. Is the Zwilling Kramer really better than the Forschner by a factor equal to its price multiple?


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## DWells (Oct 15, 2014)

Other notable comments include rating the Togiharu as second best behind the Kramer because it had a large handle.

Their testing methodology seemed to strongly value edge retention while cutting on glass. Science always produces the best results.

These are the same people that suggest a chef's choice electro-sharpener because stones are too hard to learn.


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## TB_London (Oct 15, 2014)

[video=youtube;e50gujs4l-I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e50gujs4l-I[/video]

Pseudo science almost at its finest


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## chefcomesback (Oct 15, 2014)

I saw this "review" earlier , didn't know what to say first or where to start , comparing Zwilling kramer 52100r to forschner rather than sg2 version , or cutting on glass cutting board test ? should I mention how much I cringed when I saw the experts cutting techniques ? The reason lot of knife nuts like us prefer carbon over stainless because of sharpening characteristics , how about them saying it is too difficult to learn .
Lot of people are getting interested in finer knives , handmade carbon knives are becoming trendy things to have and the amount of makers are rapidly increasing .
But if you were to look at the numbers of the finer knives in the whole cutlery market to mass produced knives it will not make even 1% Believe it or not when buying knives these are the main purchasing criterias of the 99 %. If the knives we like and mention were made for mainstream we would have 20-30k members and maybe 5times more than that lurkers. But again maybe %1 of them would understand how to use and maintain them. Can you imagine how many chipped knives shun is getting shipped to fix a year ? Yet not many members here would try to dismantle a whole chicken with their thin gyuto at 60-61 hrc hardness? But for you average user that is what chef knife designed for .
It just doesn't apply to home users either, despite having worked in some high end kitchens 14 years I have only met 3 knife nuts and maybe hundreds who will expect a chefs knife to do everything 
We can also question the credentials of the reviewers and the chefs they used as sample . Remember a well respected knife maker made kitchen knives with hideous handles because of chefs preferences ? They are chefs and they would know their tools right, I can vent more about how often people are wiling to throw word "chef" to someone just with a coat , that's a different topic for later on 
I respect the Mainstream makers decision to stick what they do and do what they do best rather then messing up the integrity of their product . It's a heavy chefs knife mostly with a bolster with a soft steel, it is what it is but not reactive and though , so it pleases mostly everybody but us.
Again guys, we are minority , I am happy that people are getting interested in fine knives, even this one is exposure with wrong info itis better than none . I won't be heartbroken if things stays the way it is rather then vendors and craftsman getting complaints or products sent back because the knife chipped after you decided to smash a lobster with it and now rusty because you left in sink overnight and put it into dishwasher to eff the custom handle on it


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## kevpenbanc (Oct 15, 2014)

chefcomesback said:


> I saw this "review" earlier , didn't know what to say first or where to start , comparing Zwilling kramer 52100r to forschner rather than sg2 version , or cutting on glass cutting board test ? should I mention how much I cringed when I saw the experts cutting techniques ? The reason lot of knife nuts like us prefer carbon over stainless because of sharpening characteristics , how about them saying it is too difficult to learn .
> Lot of people are getting interested in finer knives , handmade carbon knives are becoming trendy things to have and the amount of makers are rapidly increasing .
> But if you were to look ..................



Well said that chap.


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## ecchef (Oct 15, 2014)

chefcomesback said:


> They are chefs and they would know their tools right, I can vent more about how often people are wiling to throw word "chef" to someone just with a coat...



Don't get me started on this....:angry1:


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## chefcomesback (Oct 15, 2014)

ecchef said:


> Don't get me started on this....:angry1:



And I added that's for a later on 


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## gic (Oct 15, 2014)

I am not sure how one rates that,but I agree that for many people, the Zwilling isn't worth about 10x the cost of the Victorinox/Forschner. 

In fact, I don't think that the Victorinox/Forschner is really any better than a Tramontina Pro which cost 1/4 of the Victorinox/Forschner. 

Also, if you are going to use an chef's choice electric sharpener to sharpen your knives, I think the zwilling is clearly much the worse choice and lets face it, for the average amateur cook, a high end chefs choice electric sharpener really isn't a bad choice for their sharpening needs and if you use that kind of machine, a victorinox/forschner or tramontina is just fine...


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## SameGuy (Oct 15, 2014)

Yep.


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## WillC (Oct 15, 2014)

What knife thrown in there do you think would have confused her arguments the most, a Kato among the pigeons?


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## brainsausage (Oct 15, 2014)

ecchef said:


> Don't get me started on this....:angry1:



Amen.


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## jackslimpson (Oct 15, 2014)

Did anyone notice that at 5:04 the knife is called a Togiharu? It is actually a Masamoto. 

Cheers,

Jack


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## James (Oct 15, 2014)

I'm really curious why the Forschner is always at the top of their ratings.


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## ian5527 (Oct 15, 2014)

That article was a joke...


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## daveb (Oct 15, 2014)

I bought my mother a Suisin Western Inox awhile ago, she wanted one sharp knife (and I wanted her to have one). Things were good until CI came out with a previous "test" and said the Vnox was the best knife EVER. She had one the next day. Doom, doom, doom on CI. 

IRT the video clip, the gal with the copper bracelet could be my next ex-wife.:angel2:


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## Zwiefel (Oct 15, 2014)

Kimball is a rather tight-fisted fellow. He is also only interested in things that the majority of american kitchens (who actually cook) will take an interest in. That's his market/thing/shtick. 



James said:


> I'm really curious why the Forschner is always at the top of their ratings.


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## psfred (Oct 15, 2014)

I sharpened up a Victorinox for a friend of mine, don't know how it's doing now, but it was decently sharp when he left with it. Not a terrible knife, but it's too tall for me, I suspect it's rather soft since it sharpened that way, and I prefer my other knives.

I would draw the line and butchering chickens -- I'd never use a fine bladed knife for that, I have a butcher knife. Good way to chip a good blade doing work the knife isn't really meant to. You could use a german stainless for it since it's gonna be dull after chopping parsley anyway, but a very hard carbon blade needs a different bevel for cutting bones, even in chickens.

Obviously aimed at the sort of home cook who buys the magazine.

Peter


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## SameGuy (Oct 15, 2014)

Again, all of your expectations regarding CI, ATK and Chris Kimball's take on knives are, in a word, ridiculous.

People driving Ferraris and Lamborghinis *don't care* what _Consumer Reports_ thinks of cars. Different market, different needs, different wants, different expectations. How are we any different from drivers of hyper-exotic cars?


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## EdipisReks (Oct 15, 2014)

I could rather happily use Forschner knives, and I have. Many of my friends have asked for good, cheap knife recommendations, and I always recommend these. They have decent geometries, they get sharp easily, and they stay sharp for a reasonable amount of time. That's why they come out on top, all the time. And I think that good examples of the Z-K knife is rather superb, but there seems to be quite a bit of sample variation. And I thinned the hell out of mine, though I perhaps took it too far, as a rather large segment of tip came off when I accidentally knocked it off of my magnet, and I haven't gotten it fixed yet.


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## MikeHL (Oct 15, 2014)

SameGuy said:


> Again, all of your expectations regarding CI, ATK and Chris Kimball's take on knives are, in a word, ridiculous.
> 
> People driving Ferraris and Lamborghinis *don't care* what _Consumer Reports_ thinks of cars. Different market, different needs, different wants, different expectations. How are we any different from drivers of hyper-exotic cars?



Agreed, in the big picture we are a niche of a niche. A Victorinox is the best choice for 99% of the kitchens out there, its cheap, tough, decent geometry and can be sharpened to a decent edge. It is the perfect knife for people who don't care about knives. 

Now what bugs me is when they use that exact same criteria to compare the karmer or any other carbon knives. As like a knife nut I was just amazed on what where "good" and "bad" characteristics. For example, the sab didn't have the most amazing edge retention because the steel was soft(er) so it can be easily steeled to bring back the edge, important in a home kitchen. Try it with the karmer and you will mess up the edge. A detailed review would explain the trade offs with each characteristics. But again this is a video for people who don't really care for knives.

Hell I'm the same way with headphones, some people spend a small fortune, a $10 set at walmart is good enough for me.


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## EdipisReks (Oct 15, 2014)

I just sold my Sennheiser HD-800s because my vintage Grado RS-1s are good enough for me, and my speaker system is way better anyway. I might have missed the point of the headphone thing, admittedly.


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## panda (Oct 16, 2014)

RS-1 sounds a lot more pleasant anyway. Old school always trumps new school when it comes to artistry.


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## larrybard (Oct 16, 2014)

IMHO understanding the biases/values/criteria used by a reviewer of any product is the key to evaluating how much weight -- if any -- should be given to the opinions expressed. At least when it comes to objective criteria (e.g., fit and finish -- whether it's a Ferrari or a Kramer).

P.S. My only headphones happen to be a pair of old Grado RS-1s (paired with RA-1). Embarrassed to admit have never gotten around to trying them.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 16, 2014)

Victorinox , can be sharpened many times & still keep going. Any decent freehand sharpener can put a pretty good edge on them. The rosewood handle versions have gone up in price in recent years. For not too much more $ a Fujiwara FKM becomes a good choice.

With all the salt water, motorcycles, ice carving chain saws, my high pitch hearing has suffered. A womans voice talking fast on the phone lucky if I can understand half of it. Stick with my PSB floor speakers, no headphones.


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## EdipisReks (Oct 19, 2014)

larrybard said:


> P.S. My only headphones happen to be a pair of old Grado RS-1s (paired with RA-1). Embarrassed to admit have never gotten around to trying them.



If they have pink drivers, they are worth a good bit o' cash. Especially so with brown leather and the original wooden box.


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## Chuckles (Oct 20, 2014)

Glass cutting board? Really? And no "don't try this at home" disclaimer?

This is why I can't stand them.


Audio Technica ATH-M50 user here. And I love the side show headphone angle of this thread. I am sure Kimball would tell you his Grado SR60's are every bit as good as your RS1's.


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## panda (Oct 20, 2014)

I had old sr200 with pink drivers and they sounded great, but were uncomfortable as all hell. Chuck, the ATs are good, but had too much bass for my liking, went with akg 271. Would have held onto rs-1 if they didn't leak any noise &#55357;&#56835;


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## toddnmd (Oct 20, 2014)

Chuckles said:


> Glass cutting board? Really? And no "don't try this at home" disclaimer?
> This is why I can't stand them.



Calling glass "the bane of knives everywhere" and saying, "Glass absolutely wrecks blades" are pretty clear statements. 

Not that I think that's a valid way to assess edge retention. 

And I wonder what percentage lost interest when she mentioned how some chefs wipe the blade between all cuts . . . sigh.


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## Chifunda (Oct 20, 2014)

After several decades of big bore rifles, shotguns, and a couple of hundred thousand rounds of .45 ACP ammo, I find that I no longer have to concern myself with the relative merits of high end speakers and headphones.:biggrin:


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## Chifunda (Oct 20, 2014)

Did have a pair of Theil CS 3.5 speakers and some Stax headphones though, back when those things mattered. Please excuse the hijack.:O


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## EdipisReks (Oct 20, 2014)

Nice. I have a pair of CS2.4s, which I really love.


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## designdog (Oct 20, 2014)

These guys love to come up with a cheap trick. They are the Consumer Reports of the food world. One dimensional, monochrome, and boring. Not to say they don't occasionally come up with a nugget. But you have to wade through so much tiresome pedestrian mumbo jumbo that really isn't worth it. Next time I want to know what the best ketchup is, I'll look them up.


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## Matus (Oct 29, 2014)

I just could not help myself and posted a link to this thread as a comment to that video 'review'


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