# 76.6 HCR knife



## Knivperson (Jan 6, 2021)

What are your thoughts on this? Pretty impressive, I think:


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## Migraine (Jan 6, 2021)

Gonna be chippy as hell no?


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## Barmoley (Jan 6, 2021)

I guess we will have to see, it is not a steel, so hard to predict how it will behave with thin edges.


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## Migraine (Jan 6, 2021)

What is it?

EDIT: Flexible ceramic apparently


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## Bensbites (Jan 6, 2021)

I raise an eyebrow when someone will not give details that I can reproduce. I am all for trust but verify.


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## GBT-Splint (Jan 6, 2021)

Perfect if you need to sharpen your stones


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## M1k3 (Jan 6, 2021)

Wonder if that's the "steel" made of tungsten and cobalt?


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## TB_London (Jan 6, 2021)

He knows what he’s doing with HT and knife making so I wouldn’t right it off as being junk


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Wonder if that's the "steel" made of tungsten and cobalt?


He states that it's a flexible ceramic. (He does make steel knives too.)


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

GBT-Splint said:


> Perfect if you need to sharpen your stones


He uses vitrified-diamond stones to sharpen this stuff, according to his conversations.


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## Matus (Jan 6, 2021)

Guys, we are taking about Roman of KKnives_Switzerland here. He got a piece this material from an undisclosed company to test / play with. He knows very well what he is doing. He has a very scientific approach and does some crazy high end HT - just look at the edge retention tests of some of his blades made by outpost 76 on YouTube.


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## Alder26 (Jan 6, 2021)

Sounds very interesting, how will you sharpen it though?


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## Matus (Jan 6, 2021)

My understanding is that it is a major PITA  as only some specific diamond based abrasives work. I did not follow up with Roman on this as I did not get the impression that this was more than an experiment. I don’t know whether he will have access to this material in the future.


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## DrEriksson (Jan 6, 2021)

Alder26 said:


> Sounds very interesting, how will you sharpen it though?



You don’t. It sharpens you.


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Alder26 said:


> Sounds very interesting, how will you sharpen it though?


See a couple of posts above yours.


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## Barmoley (Jan 6, 2021)

Yeah, what Matus said, Roman knows what he is doing and then some. Diamonds are your friend. Will be interesting to see what the final result will be. 

There were a few ideas of making knives out of liquid metal and flexible ceramics before, but so far steel ended up being better for many reasons.

Most here would not like these knives anyway, no patina, need diamonds, thinning will probably be impossible by hand, no heat treat magic to argue over, etc it is no White 2


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 6, 2021)

I’d take that test result with a grain of salt


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> ... but so far steel ended up being better for many reasons.


One of those reasons certainly still applies in this case: steel is something anybody can get.


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I’d take that test result with a grain of salt


I wouldn't. But it's only one type of test, and to find a good knife material requires many different tests.


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## Neofolis (Jan 6, 2021)

Alder26 said:


> Sounds very interesting, how will you sharpen it though?


Would be less of an issue if it holds it's edge for a really long time. Even if home sharpening was impossible, it wouldn't be too much of a problem, if it only needed sharpening annually or something.


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Neofolis said:


> Would be less of an issue if it holds it's edge for a really long time. Even if home sharpening was impossible, it wouldn't be too much of a problem, if it only needed sharpening annually or something.


I'm guessing anybody with the budget for a knife made of this stuff won't mind getting the $200 diamond stones to sharpen it with.


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## Neofolis (Jan 6, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> I'm guessing anybody with the budget for a knife made of this stuff won't mind getting the $200 diamond stones to sharpen it with.


It may not be expensive. Obviously it would be at first, but it may be able to be produced and manufactured at reasonable costs, in which case, if enough people start producing knives using this material, it could be cost efficient and there be enough supply to create competition. Let's hope not, because that wouldn't be good for the current bladesmiths.


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Neofolis said:


> Let's hope not, because that wouldn't be good for the current bladesmiths.


I feel that, but at the same time, real innovation is good. (By "real" I just mean honest and not all hype.)

Everyone needs to make a living, but a good bladesmith will certainly recognize the benefit if a genuinely superior product is created. It's not the same as being cheated by impostors.


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## Neofolis (Jan 6, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> I feel that, but at the same time, real innovation is good. (By "real" I just mean honest and not all hype.)


To be fair, even if that happened, I think there are plenty of people who would continue to supports the Artisans. It may even help to balance supply and demand a little.


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## TB_London (Jan 6, 2021)

Because PM steels capable of higher hardness and edge retention have massively displaced all other non Pm steels and killed off all the makers not equipped to use them.........
Or maybe not


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## M1k3 (Jan 6, 2021)

Simpler carbon steels are more accessible compared to stainless and most PM steel.


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## Neofolis (Jan 6, 2021)

TB_London said:


> Because PM steels capable of higher hardness and edge retention have massively displaced all other non Pm steels and killed off all the makers not equipped to use them.........
> Or maybe not


I was basing the possibility of it potentially harming existing makers on it being produced easily and cheaply. Either way, it was hypothetical.


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

TB_London said:


> Because PM steels capable of higher hardness and edge retention have massively displaced all other non Pm steels and killed off all the makers not equipped to use them.........
> Or maybe not


All of them are recognized as "better in some ways but not in others". Some day, there may come a new material that turns out to be "better in every way, no question". But probably not for a LONG time.


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## Kippington (Jan 6, 2021)

Hasn't anyone here tested a ceramic knife before? They're quite cheap and hit about 75 HRC. I bought one for testing and didn't like it myself, but it was mostly messing around to see what I thought of it rather than setting out to make any definitive conclusions.
It felt like something you should knap rather than sharpen on an abrasive stone...


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Kippington said:


> Hasn't anyone here tested a ceramic knife before? They're quite cheap and hit about 75 HRC. I bought one for testing and didn't like it myself, but it was mostly messing around to see what I thought of it rather than setting out to make any definitive conclusions.
> It felt like something you should knap rather than sharpen on an abrasive stone...


I've used a poor quality (or good but old and wearing out?) ceramic knife. Not a great experience. Like I said, it might have been good when it was new. But clearly, nobody here has tried a _flexible_ ceramic knife, and clearly it's not just the same thing.


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## Kippington (Jan 6, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> I've used a poor quality (or good but old and wearing out?) ceramic knife. Not a great experience. Like I said, it might have been good when it was new. But clearly, nobody here has tried a _flexible_ ceramic knife, and clearly it's not just the same thing.


Where'd you pull flexibility from? I don't see a flex test on his Insta post, did I miss something?


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Kippington said:


> did I miss something?


Yes you missed something, he said that himself in a response to someone later.


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## Kippington (Jan 6, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Yes you missed something, he said that himself in a response to someone later.


Ah I'm not paying much attention. Could be interesting, I hope he gets the results he's after. I've messed around with ceramic enough to know that I personally wouldn't appreciate even the best results.


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Kippington said:


> Ah I'm not paying much attention. Could be interesting, I hope he gets the results he's after. I've messed around with ceramic enough to know that I personally wouldn't appreciate even the best results.


All ceramic knives that I've seen so far have been made of the same stuff, but different ceramics can behave quite differently. It's like saying "If you've tried the steel they made in the 16th century, you know what all steel is like".


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## Kippington (Jan 6, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> ...different ceramics can behave quite differently.


You're stating the obvious, my friend.
If I were after a ceramic that behaved exactly like steel, it would be wise to ditch ceramics and try steel.


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Kippington said:


> You're stating the obvious, my friend.
> If I were after a ceramic that behaved exactly like steel, it would be wise to ditch ceramics and try steel.


But you could be after a new ceramic that didn't behave like the others, regardless of steel.

(If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail → If you only care about knives if they're made of steel, you'll judge every other material as if it was nothing but bad steel)


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## Kippington (Jan 6, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> If you only care about knives if they're made of steel, you'll judge every other material as if it was nothing but bad steel


But that's my point! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



DavidPF said:


> If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail


That's probably not a good analogy to give to a bladesmith lol


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Kippington said:


> That's probably not a good analogy to give to a bladesmith lol


Sure it is, knives are all just big nails that have been flattened a bit


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Kippington said:


> But that's my point! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Are we saying that the Swiss guy just wants steel but he won't admit it? I don't know him.


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## Kippington (Jan 6, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Are we saying that the Swiss guy just wants steel but he won't admit it? I don't know him.


No, we're saying the Swiss guy is after material properties that some other people aren't interested in.
I'll say it again - I hope he gets the results he's after.


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Kippington said:


> No, we're saying the Swiss guy is after material properties that some other people aren't interested in.
> I'll say it again - I hope he gets the results he's after.


I don't know him... Maybe "the results he's after" is "to find out things nobody knew before, and then after that, see if any of it is useful". People who insist on usefulness up front, rarely come up with anything really new. But they also rarely come up with trash. It's a trade-off.


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 6, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> ...People who insist on usefulness up front, rarely come up with anything really new...


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## Boynutman (Jan 7, 2021)

25 years ago i naively bought a kyocera ceramic knife on a business trip to Taiwan. Wonderful, never seen anything like it!
Until some days after someone (...me...) uses the knife to trim a bouquet of flowers and overlooks some metal wires... That was pretty much the end of the useful life of the knife/edge, severely chipped.

So sharpening of any knife is indeed a consideration, is what I learned from that.


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## Matus (Jan 7, 2021)

Kippington said:


> Hasn't anyone here tested a ceramic knife before? They're quite cheap and hit about 75 HRC. I bought one for testing and didn't like it myself, but it was mostly messing around to see what I thought of it rather than setting out to make any definitive conclusions.
> It felt like something you should knap rather than sharpen on an abrasive stone...


The material referenced in this thread appears has very different mechanical qualities. I don't expect $5 flexible ceramic 77 HRC knives in Walmart anytime soon though.

EDIT: I might have missed a few recent posts before posting this reply, sorry


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## Knivperson (Jan 7, 2021)

Migraine said:


> Gonna be chippy as hell no?


Not necessarily, here another high rockwell knife he made, and it's not brittle:


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## Kippington (Jan 7, 2021)

Knivperson said:


> Not necessarily, here another high rockwell knife he made, and it's not brittle:



That knife is made from steel, not ceramic.

Also, it's nowhere near as hard as the knife we're talking about in this thread. The Rockwell scale is non-linear, meaning that a change of:

62.0 HRC to 67.8 HRC (the knife you posted above) represents a 33% increase in hardness
62.0 HRC to 76.6 HRC (the one in the original post) represents a 97% increase in hardness


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## Dhoff (Jan 7, 2021)

Looks quite interesting in respect to the flexibility and resistance to drop damage. Not sure how many gyotos made of steel could handle the thing he does?


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## Nemo (Jan 7, 2021)

Pass.

I like to be able to maintain my knives.


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## DavidPF (Jan 7, 2021)

Boynutman said:


> Until some days after someone (...me...) uses the knife to trim a bouquet of flowers and overlooks some metal wires... That was pretty much the end of the useful life of the knife/edge, severely chipped.
> 
> So sharpening of any knife is indeed a consideration, is what I learned from that.


The ceramic knives I've been able to look at in people's homes have *all* been badly chipped. That beautiful edge makes no difference if it's no longer attached to the knife. 

Yes, either the ability to easily sharpen it or the freedom to not sharpen because it doesn't need it. The hype was that those ceramic knives wouldn't need sharpening (much) - and they don't need sharpening - they need large-scale impossible-to-perform structural repair.

Maybe a new ceramic will deliver. Or not.

EDIT: I've got it! Ceramic with steel rebar embedded!


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## Kippington (Jan 7, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> EDIT: I've got it! Ceramic with steel rebar embedded!



There's actually supposed to be enough metal in a ceramic knife to set off a metal detector.
But there isn't much, considering how lightweight they are compared to steel knives. It's one of the main reasons I don't like ceramic knives.

This one is 7 inches and only weighs 94 grams...


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## Barmoley (Jan 7, 2021)

Weight can be dealt with to some degree, the real question is if this new ceramic can handle thin edges without breaking with lateral and impact forces unlike current ceramic knives. If it can at that hardness and can be produced like current ceramic knives that would be cool. For example you could make steel, copper, tungsten inserts to deal with lack of weight.


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## AT5760 (Jan 7, 2021)

Innovation is interesting. I've never used the ceramic knives on the market and don't have much interest in one as a kitchen tool. But for a gardening knife or pruning blades, heck yeah - assuming they stay intact.


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## Migraine (Jan 7, 2021)

Kippington said:


> Where'd you pull flexibility from? I don't see a flex test on his Insta post, did I miss something?



You can see him flex it at the end of the instagram video.


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 7, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> EDIT: I've got it! Ceramic with steel rebar embedded!


This is a brilliant idea. To prevent microchipping we'll have to embed the steel uniformly along the edge. Approximately 99.9% steel to 0.1% ceramic ratio should do the trick.

It's almost like steel has certain properties that are critical for this application


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## Barmoley (Jan 7, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> Innovation is interesting. I've never used the ceramic knives on the market and don't have much interest in one as a kitchen tool. But for a gardening knife or pruning blades, heck yeah - assuming they stay intact.


Why not as a kitchen tool. Hypothetically speaking if you could get a knife that needs to be sharpened very rarely, never needs thinning, doesn't rust is relatively cheap and can be made with any profile and grind. Why not use it in the kitchen.


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## Barmoley (Jan 7, 2021)

I don't get all the negativity. We are not talking modern ceramic knives. We are talking potentially a different material that we don't really know anything about except that it seems to be durable at high hardness. It is the same thing when we discuss modern highly alloyed steels. What is the problem with having choices and trying to improve on what we have. No let's better just come up with another way to heat treat white 2 that won't make any appreciable difference.


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## AT5760 (Jan 7, 2021)

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be used in the kitchen, or that there wouldn't be a terrific market for them. For me though, I'm a home cook that enjoys sharpening. Maintenance isn't a drawback - in fact it is part of the appeal of a carbon steel knife.


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## Leo Barr (Jan 7, 2021)

Sounds good until an idiot thickens it up on a steel or a ceramic rod and repairs are necessary I have had to repair ZDP 189 when someone has removed half the higan with a steel or rod & removed the belly of the knife then it was quite a job to thin to get the original amount of higan showing & remove a bit of height from each end to give it back some belly. Sort of knife for a home cook that doesn't cook.


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## Neofolis (Jan 7, 2021)

I'm guessing no-one has tried graphene for knives yet. I'd imagine a blade edge one atom thick would be reasonably sharp and I know it's harder than steel, but I don't really know anything about it's other properties, other than being prohibitively expensive to produce. I suspect kitchen knives are probably a long way down it's list of potential applications.

Carbon fibre on the other hand, whilst also expensive, not to the same extent and could potentially save on manufacturing costs. I've no idea whether it's properties would have any virtues, I only know that it's used instead of steel in other applications. Then again, it could be completely unsuitable.


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## Nemo (Jan 7, 2021)

I don't think carbon fibre is that hard, as the surface is just whatever epoxy they use as a matrix.

It can be made super stiff but not so much hard.


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## Michi (Jan 9, 2021)

I tried one of the Kyocera ceramic knives a few years ago. It was definitely very sharp. It also was extremely light. So much so that I didn't like using it at all, even though it cut very well. Just not my kind of knife…


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## TB_London (Jan 9, 2021)

Way back when people used to soft stainless knives said all the same things about Japanese knives....

“They’re too hard and chippy”
“Sharpening them needs special stones”
“They’re not suitable for the cooking we do”
“Stainless has the properties you need in a kitchen”


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## DavidPF (Jan 9, 2021)

Nemo said:


> Pass.
> 
> I like to be able to maintain my knives.


If there's no conceivable reason to need to maintain them, then that's just being foolish.


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## Jovidah (Jan 9, 2021)

I guess you could make it perform double duty as both a knife and a stone flattener?


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## DavidPF (Jan 9, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> I guess you could make it perform double duty as both a knife and a stone flattener?


 Maybe...

If a new super-hard material is a real success in every way (including being affordable), sharpening things using the currently widespread types of stones will very quickly become obsolete except as a niche hobby, like building spare wheels for horse-carts. But that type of success looks *very* far off, if at all.


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## Nemo (Jan 9, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> If there's no conceivable reason to need to maintain them, then that's just being foolish.


No need for name calling.

I think it's unlikely that these things have infinite edge retention.

They are not lightsabres.


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## DavidPF (Jan 9, 2021)

Nemo said:


> No need for name calling.
> 
> I think it's unlikely that these things have infinite edge retention.
> 
> They are not lightsabres.


Japanese-style knives need "special stones". You're not complaining about that fact. 

Any knife as hard as being discussed would need other "special stones".

But claiming they'd be unmaintainable is just as silly as claiming VG10 is unmaintainable.


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## Barmoley (Jan 9, 2021)

Very high alloy steels already need special stones and these stones will also most likely work for this new material.

Nemo is just pointing out that there is no need to be rude or aggressive.

We have some people that are clearly not interested in new materials and are happy with what is already there. They are entitled to their opinions. Let's be civil.

Most of the complaints brought up about current ceramic knives are valid. We don't know what this material is exactly. We don't know if it is chipy or light or anything really. Normal ceramic knives don't bend, this seems to, so might be very different. Likewise weight might be different or weight could be addressed in different ways.


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## Nemo (Jan 9, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Japanese-style knives need "special stones"



In my experience, this is not correct.

I could maintain the majority of my knives with almost any stone. Granted, some stones may struggle with highly alloyed steels and the stones that we tend to favour here have nice feedback compared to other stones but... almost any stone will actually grind the steel.

Also, plain old sandpaper would easily deal with any of my knives.


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## M1k3 (Jan 10, 2021)

Bottom of a coffee mug has been known to make an appearance as a sharpening stone.

I'm curious about new steels and other materials. I won't exactly be first in line like these makers testing them. Would like to see where they go before I make any kind of judgement, good or bad, about them.


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## Boynutman (Jan 10, 2021)

How about a sanmai setup? Best of both worlds. Cheap stainless core for ease of sharpening, ceramic cladding for ease of thinning.


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## Knivperson (Jan 10, 2021)

Flexible ceramic knife - YouTube 
Some more info on the knife


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## Barmoley (Jan 10, 2021)

Sounds really good. Very interesting, thanks for finding this.


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## Kentos (Jan 19, 2021)

It’s a material looking for an application that would be cost effective and profitable. Many space aged materials were discovered before useful applications were discovered. Teflon is one that comes to mind. It took 16 years to make the jump from lab discovery to pans. A knife may or may not be the best use for it, but until someone tries we would never know. Maybe a disposable razor that lasts 5 years? Commercial fillet knives?


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## Jovidah (Jan 19, 2021)

Combination of hard AND tough would normally do well in armour playing, but I have no idea how it stacks up against already existing stuff.


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## Barmoley (Jan 19, 2021)

There are a million applications for such a material. I am sure it was not developed for hand knives, that's just I minor offshoot use.


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## DavidPF (Jan 20, 2021)

Nemo said:


> In my experience, this is not correct.
> 
> I could maintain the majority of my knives with almost any stone. Granted, some stones may struggle with highly alloyed steels and the stones that we tend to favour here have nice feedback compared to other stones but... almost any stone will actually grind the steel.
> 
> Also, plain old sandpaper would easily deal with any of my knives.


I'm arguing that the situation with the new material is not really all that different. If you were stuck with my grandfather's old sharpening stones (assuming they were in new condition again), you could get by - but you wouldn't, would you. You'd get something more suitable for your knives. There's nothing odd or wrong or exceptional about using the sharpening tools that work best for the knife material. It IS odd and wrong and exceptional to claim that that's some kind of dramatic disaster.


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## TB_London (Jan 20, 2021)

Depends what stones they were the older Arks were great and I’ve seen campaigns to try and reopen the mines for the best ones.
Let’s not forget the world we live in was largely built before synthetic waterstones.

Go look at high end antique woodwork and tell me they were limited by the quality of the steel or the sharpness of their tools.


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## LazerTornado (Jan 20, 2021)

I'd just be glad if I picked up a ceramic knife and it didn't feel like I was trying to cut using a doorstop made of frozen milk.


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

Hello! It is I, the Swiss guy

I am Roman aka KKnives_Switzerland who is responsible for this knife. I just was made aware of this thread - otherwise I would have chimed in earlier.
Is it a steel replacement? Eeeh maybe partially. I'd say "it's getting serious". Currently steel still has higher edge stability and toughness than this. I wouldn't make a bushcraft knife from it. 

I made a new video with a description which provides background info and should answer many of your legit questions. Trust me, when I first saw this material in person, I was very sceptical. Soon some test knives will head out to independent testers and then we will see. I think I could ramble on and on for days like in these cheesy teleshopping ads and it still wouldn't prove anything. So let's wait for the tests by Youtubers. Personally, I am convinced by this stuff - yet the community and ultimately the customer must decide. My personal prediction at this point is that it will give knives like Wüsthoff a run for their money. Customs and Japanese steel knives? No. Maybe in 10years but even then we will always have nostalgic feelings for steel knives.

Now without further talking, here is the mentioned video:


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## AT5760 (Jan 28, 2021)

Thanks for jumping in and providing more information. Based on your work with the material, what applications do you see where it would be particularly useful?


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I’d take that test result with a grain of salt


You should. As I just also wrote in a different reply, I also was very critical initially and I will soon send samples of these knives out to Youtubers. I / we need independent verification. Every innovator is biased towards their own product and I am no exception. These tests will tell us a lot. I don't think it will replace steel anytime soon - it's after all also the first material of its kind - but it could certainly give 120 Euro/150USD "retail store knives" a hard run for their money. The ordinary knife that Jon Doe picks up at Walmart for his BBQ next Friday is outcut by this flexible ceramic based on what I found out in testing. High end PM grade steels have higher edge stability and toughness, no doubt about it. That's why I am mainly using these steels and still will be doing so for most likely many years alongside with this material. The edge retention however, well, I think this could break any former record. But again, let's wait for the test results of independent (Youtube) testers like Cedric&Ada and see. In any case I think we are witnessing the start of something that will change many things in our daily lives such as prostetics, implants and wear resistant machine parts. Especially those.


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> I don't know him... Maybe "the results he's after" is "to find out things nobody knew before, and then after that, see if any of it is useful". People who insist on usefulness up front, rarely come up with anything really new. But they also rarely come up with trash. It's a trade-off.


That's why I don't insist


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

Nemo said:


> No need for name calling.
> 
> I think it's unlikely that these things have infinite edge retention.
> 
> They are not lightsabres.


They don't. I know many manufacturers of ceramic knives like to say or at least imply that. I do not because it is straight out not true. Based on my testing, which will soon be repeated by independent youtubers, the edge retention is extremely high though. How high? Well, I literally ran out of manila rope before I could feel any edge degradation. Whatever that tells you - nothing, lol. But it showed me that I am onto something big and I pursued it. Stay tuned for the independent Youtube tests folks. They will tell us if "yay or nay". (Personally I think it will be a "yay" but the consumer decides.) I will post the links to these reviews once they are out. (If I forget, please someone pester me until I do it or post it yourselfs haha.) One thing is for sure i think: This will severely put the typical "super market knife" under pressure. It just cuts so much longer without being chippy or brittle.


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## Matus (Jan 28, 2021)

OMG, did you say Youtubers? Do you want to put the nice guy (Outpost 76) to hospital?. If the Maxamet did 1.000 feet od cardboard, this knife must make 10.000. I am sorry for him already


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

Kentos said:


> It’s a material looking for an application that would be cost effective and profitable. Many space aged materials were discovered before useful applications were discovered. Teflon is one that comes to mind. It took 16 years to make the jump from lab discovery to pans. A knife may or may not be the best use for it, but until someone tries we would never know. Maybe a disposable razor that lasts 5 years? Commercial fillet knives?


Taking thoughts out of my mind. There are so many uses swirling around in my mind. (Steel) knives is just what I make for a living, so naturally that is what I do with it.


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

Matus said:


> OMG, did you say Youtubers? Do you want to put the nice guy (Outpost 76) to hospital?. If the Maxamet did 1.000 feet od cardboard, this knife must make 10.000. I am sorry for him already


Him and Cedric&Ada xD


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## Matus (Jan 28, 2021)

Roman said:


> Him and Cedric&Ada xD


Good pick. Some of the few knife reviewers on YT who actually use the knife they review. I am lookng forward what their experience will be.


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

LazerTornado said:


> I'd just be glad if I picked up a ceramic knife and it didn't feel like I was trying to cut using a doorstop made of frozen milk.


I chuckled when I read that - it exactly describes how normal ceramic knives feel to me. This feels... "different". Let's just put it that way. To me, it feels completely different than normal ceramic. It feels "oddly nice". But then again, as I said before, I am biased towards my own prodcut. I am currently figuring out pricing - I want it to be accessible so that people can try and see for themselves without spending an arm and a leg.


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

Matus said:


> My understanding is that it is a major PITA  as only some specific diamond based abrasives work. I did not follow up with Roman on this as I did not get the impression that this was more than an experiment. I don’t know whether he will have access to this material in the future.


I do have access.


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

Matus said:


> Good pick. Some of the few knife reviewers on YT who actually use the knife they review. I am lookng forward what their experience will be.


I don't think we would benefit from a table top review in this case.


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


>


That's why I am looking forward to the independent testing of this knife. I could tell you all day how great it is, but I let others to decide. My hopes are up, but no matter the outcome I like to dare walking paths nobody walked before. Because in the end, it will turn heads and bring me business for my main income, which is making custom knives from steel.


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## Jason183 (Jan 28, 2021)

How difficult is it to sharpen compared to VG10,R2?


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## Roman (Jan 28, 2021)

Jason183 said:


> How difficult is it to sharpen compared to VG10,R2?


Very difficult - your technique must be flawless. Stropping with 6micron or 3 micron diamond compound works very well and easily however. Odd, I know.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 28, 2021)

Roman said:


> You should. As I just also wrote in a different reply, I also was very critical initially and I will soon send samples of these knives out to Youtubers. I / we need independent verification. Every innovator is biased towards their own product and I am no exception. These tests will tell us a lot. I don't think it will replace steel anytime soon - it's after all also the first material of its kind - but it could certainly give 120 Euro/150USD "retail store knives" a hard run for their money. The ordinary knife that Jon Doe picks up at Walmart for his BBQ next Friday is outcut by this flexible ceramic based on what I found out in testing. High end PM grade steels have higher edge stability and toughness, no doubt about it. That's why I am mainly using these steels and still will be doing so for most likely many years alongside with this material. The edge retention however, well, I think this could break any former record. But again, let's wait for the test results of independent (Youtube) testers like Cedric&Ada and see. In any case I think we are witnessing the start of something that will change many things in our daily lives such as prostetics, implants and wear resistant machine parts. Especially those.


That would be great to see an actual certified HRC test using a certified lab and calibrated equipment. This testing using 60 year old Russian hardness testers from flea markets that haven’t been serviced or calibrated in decades has me a bit skeptical.


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 28, 2021)

Roman said:


> That's why I am looking forward to the independent testing of this knife. I could tell you all day how great it is, but I let others to decide. My hopes are up, but no matter the outcome I like to dare walking paths nobody walked before. Because in the end, it will turn heads and bring me business for my main income, which is making custom knives from steel.


I appreciate that you're doing some sort of social media strategy where you reply to everyone and try to force your talking points into the conversation. But I was laugh-reacting at the newbie member telling Kippington of all people that his insistence on material utility will prevent him from creating anything new.


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## M1k3 (Jan 28, 2021)

Pass around?


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## Roman (Jan 29, 2021)

Chicagohawkie said:


> That would be great to see an actual certified HRC test using a certified lab and calibrated equipment. This testing using 60 year old Russian hardness testers from flea markets that haven’t been serviced or calibrated in decades has me a bit skeptical.


That's why I don't use such a tester - you are absolutely corrcet that one has to be sceptical about flea market testers:


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## Roman (Jan 29, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I appreciate that you're doing some sort of social media strategy where you reply to everyone and try to force your talking points into the conversation. But I was laugh-reacting at the newbie member telling Kippington of all people that his insistence on material utility will prevent him from creating anything new.


Oh I see. English isn't my first language, so I sometimes don't catch these fine nuances. That being said, I don't want to force anything (!) or want to do some obscure social media corporate thingy - I just want to be transparent. I have high hopes for this material, yet want to be clear of its limitations, too.


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## Roman (Jan 29, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Pass around?


Good idea! I'll try to get my hands on more material. Will get back on that.


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## Bolek (Jan 29, 2021)

Nemo said:


> In my experience, this is not correct.
> 
> I could maintain the majority of my knives with almost any stone. Granted, some stones may struggle with highly alloyed steels and the stones that we tend to favour here have nice feedback compared to other stones but... almost any stone will actually grind the steel.
> 
> *Also, plain old sandpaper would easily deal with any of my knives.*


As a 600 (then 1200) grit AlO3 or SiC sandpaper deal with ceramic knives.


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## Roman (Feb 1, 2021)

Update: Just shipped a test blade to Cedric&Ada (Youtube channel you may know) for the cut testing. Will probably take 1-2 weeks to arrive on the other side of the world in Australia. I will post a link to the review here once it's out.


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## Roman (Apr 6, 2021)

Finally. The test by Cedric and Ada is done. And YES, you can sharpen it! I will soon make a video on how to do it. ( Also since the next question probably will be what these knives cost - admins remove this part if not okay - price for a similar knife like in the video (with tip) is 70 - 100USD.


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## big_adventure (Apr 6, 2021)

Congratulations! That's pretty impressive edge retention. Definitely time for a KKF passaround. If you want knife-spoiled people who do not necessarily represent the any real "market" for this product criticizing your work, there is definitely no better place then here and no better people then us!


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## DrEriksson (Apr 6, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Congratulations! That's pretty impressive edge retention. Definitely time for a KKF passaround. If you want knife-spoiled people who do not necessarily represent the any real "market" for this product criticizing your work, there is definitely no better place then here and no better people then us!


Excellent, and since he lives in Switzerland and I also live in Sweden, I can grab it for a first try.


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## Ruso (Apr 7, 2021)

Based on a video looks like the grind is either FFG with big secondary bevel or no grind at all and just a secondary bevel. 
Can this material support more complex grinds?


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## msum (Apr 7, 2021)

I’d be curious I try a passaround... But how will maintenance work as the passaround drags on? I don’t imagine too many people would necessarily be able to sharpen it and/or fix any microchips.

Also, Roman, I’ve sent you 3 messages (via PM here and your website’s webform) over the last 2-3 months or so. I know your reply time is about a month, but just thought I’d see if my messages got through.


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## Roman (Apr 7, 2021)

Ruso said:


> Based on a video looks like the grind is either FFG with big secondary bevel or no grind at all and just a secondary bevel.
> Can this material support more complex grinds?


It is full flat grind with secondary, just not visible in the video. Can can support all grinds out there.


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## Roman (Apr 7, 2021)

msum said:


> I’d be curious I try a passaround... But how will maintenance work as the passaround drags on? I don’t imagine too many people would necessarily be able to sharpen it and/or fix any microchips.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, Roman, I’ve sent you 3 messages (via PM here and your website’s webform) over the last 2-3 months or so. I know your reply time is about a month, but just thought I’d see if my messages got through.



I will make a sharpening video soon, that being said I think multiple knafs might be the answer. Let me think about it for a while.


I got about a hundred messages to Check right now; I don't know if yours is among them, but I see no reason why not.


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## msum (Apr 7, 2021)

Roman said:


> I will make a sharpening video soon, that being said I think multiple knafs might be the answer. Let me think about it for a while.
> 
> 
> I got about a hundred messages to Check right now; I don't know if yours is among them, but I see no reason why not.



Thanks!

I shall keep an eye out.


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## Michi (Apr 8, 2021)

So, I found this really interesting. There is this knife that, for practical intents and purposes, does not dull. By the looks of things, that thing will not need sharpening before I die, even if I use it every day.

This sort of closes a chapter, doesn't it? No more sharpening. No more obsessing about stones. No more debates about ceramic vs steel honing rods.

If this knife handles and feels even acceptably well, I'll buy one. Because I use knives to prepare meals, not to sharpen them.


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## AT5760 (Apr 8, 2021)

As a fixed blade utility knife or EDC folder, one of these could be really appealing. I wonder how these edges stand up to cardboard, zip ties, and such?


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## big_adventure (Apr 8, 2021)

Michi said:


> So, I found this really interesting. There is this knife that, for practical intents and purposes, does not dull. By the looks of things, that thing will not need sharpening before I die, even if I use it every day.
> 
> This sort of closes a chapter, doesn't it? No more sharpening. No more obsessing about stones. No more debates about ceramic vs steel honing rods.
> 
> If this knife handles and feels even acceptably well, I'l buy one. Because I use knives to prepare meals, not to sharpen them.



It won't actually last _that _long, is the thing. It will last a really long while, but one really important thing to about any ceramic knife, even magic flexi ceramic, is that you are going to get chipping. That chipping "early" on is going to help in certain tasks, like cutting rope or paper, as the tiny chips form teeth. Long term, the chip edges soften, become larger and the edge becomes dull. The same is true of super hard brittle "super" steels that we use on knives. 

Numbers like the Cedric... video showed are impressive as hell, but also are around 5x well-made AEB-L. If you use it a fair amount, it will start dulling. You can then sharpen it easily and quickly on any stones and restore maximum performance in 5 or 10 minutes. This knife? It will last a lot longer before dulling, but sharpening is going to be massively more painful. And if you are like me at all, since I really expanded my position in knives and stones, I don't tolerate even a tiny bit of dull. I want every knife on my strip to glide through everything at all times. Celery, cabbage, carrots, butternuts, sweet potatoes, soft juicy tomatoes, fresh hard peppers - everything has to be completely smooth or the knife hits stone. That means maintaining edges that would be ridiculous to 99% of consumers, for the 2 to 3 meals I cook a day at home.

All of that said, the market isn't here to cater to me. It's here for soccer moms and mid manager dads and doctor ladies and garbage men. Most of that group, even the good cooks, are probably used to knives that I wouldn't touch, and this knife would be literal magic to them. Cooking a few meals a week, without going silly on what you are cutting and without trying to set speed and smoothness records when doing so? This knife will likely _never _get down to the levels of the Vic they bought 8 years ago and have only used a 9 dollar pull through on once every year since.


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## Moooza (Apr 8, 2021)

Pre-order is now up, you can find it in the text of the youtube video below:


I ordered a Baracuda L. Should be interesting.


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## Chef Doom (Apr 9, 2021)

"It Slices, It Dices, It Even Cuts This Tin Can And Still Remains Razor Sharp!"


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## Michi (Apr 9, 2021)

I've ordered one because I'm intrigued enough to want to try it. Worst case, I'll give it to some family with a drawer full of dull knives.


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## Chef Doom (Apr 9, 2021)

Don't get me wrong. I think products like these are great for various reasons. But my issue is why do they always use the types of tests you would use for a folder or utility knife on a kitchen knife? None of this shows me how this will perform in any kitchen be it home or professional. I would prefer that they prepare a meal or chop and slice a bunch of food. Maybe a video showing several days of prep? Who knows.

These tests would be great if I was looking for a ceramic folder.


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## Michi (Apr 9, 2021)

Yes. How well the knife actually works depends in large part on the feel and handling and balance. But these things are quite difficult to show in a video anyway.

I expect something thin, super-sharp, and very light. I have no doubt that it will work well for general-purpose veggie prep and the like. It'll probably also do really well for slicing salami, medium-hard cheeses, and similar. I doubt that it would work well for hard things, such as pumpkin, or for skinning a pineapple.

My wife will probably like it because it'll be sharp, won't need sharpening all the time, and is light. We'll see in a few weeks…


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## Luftmensch (Apr 10, 2021)

Hey it is @Chef Doom!!




Michi said:


> I expect something thin, super-sharp, and very light.



Seems that way. I suspect it will be handle heavy/biased. Right now I prefer balance at the heel or slightly forward. Perhaps it doesnt matter if the knife is so light? Still... I imagine some weight in the blade is generally an asset (to a degree).

I can see this being potentially appealing to people who want to take their knives for granted (the overwhelming majority of home cooks). Knife nerds might be intrigued by its material properties. As a tool it shouldn't matter... but dare I say it... it seems to lack soul.... It may not have much appeal to those who enjoy the craftsmanship of handmade knives...



@Roman... since it is a food preparation tool, in press/videos, I would recommend using a food grade lubricant for sharpening. Either that or be very, very clear about cleaning WD40 completely off the blade. Trace amounts wont kill a person... but it is not good stuff to ingest!


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## Chef Doom (Apr 10, 2021)

Hey there @*Luftmensch*

I know the "soul" argument quite well. My thing is, you don't see the folding or hunting knife community testing there blades in the kitchen. So I never understood why there was an obsession with testing kitchen knives as if you are going to use it for wood carving.

The knife sounds great. Hardness, flexibility, long lasting, all things a woman wants in the bedroom. But if I hate using it on a cutting board then all of those things are meaningless.

Now if they show a video where they are chopping onions an tomatoes, then they use that same knife to kill some random ninja assassins, then go back to chopping onions and tomatoes, I will make a pre-order TODAY!


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## Barmoley (Apr 10, 2021)

Do we really need to tell people to wash off wd40 from a knife before making food with it? some things are just obvious. I think these knives if they prove to be what they seem will work for the majority of the public. For people here who like to sharpen and to agonize over all the minute details these won’t work as far as gyuto go. I bought a few and if these will work as I hope I’ll buy them for gifts for friends and family. These are cheap enough where you can replace them every few years and never have to sharpen them. The smaller knives will work as is for anyone as these are petty size and balance, weight and grind are less relevant there.

The tests are to prove that these are different from other ceramic knives, that’s why they seem irrelevant to cooking. Everyone just keeps on saying how chippy ceramic knives are without reading or knowing anything about this new material. Roman just tried to show these are different, at least this is how it looks to me.


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## Chef Doom (Apr 10, 2021)

I'm only being critical because I have yet to see them cut any food with them.

I also look sideways when I see similar tests done with regular stainless or PM cooking knives. Great, it can cut rope and straw and whatever else dozens of times without getting dull. Wonderful. But does it glide through raw meat?


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## Jason183 (Apr 10, 2021)

Chef Doom said:


> I'm only being critical because I have yet to see them cut any food with them.
> 
> I also look sideways when I see similar tests done with regular stainless or PM cooking knives. Great, it can cut rope and straw and whatever else dozens of times without getting dull. Wonderful. But does it glide through raw meat?


It probably won’t be good for tougher tasks( liked splitting lobsters shells, cut through fish head bones)since you need the stiffness to cut straight without any bending distraction, but I can see it works good as filleting knife since it’s so flexible.


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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)




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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)

Michi said:


> So, I found this really interesting. There is this knife that, for practical intents and purposes, does not dull. By the looks of things, that thing will not need sharpening before I die, even if I use it every day.
> 
> This sort of closes a chapter, doesn't it? No more sharpening. No more obsessing about stones. No more debates about ceramic vs steel honing rods.
> 
> If this knife handles and feels even acceptably well, I'll buy one. Because I use knives to prepare meals, not to sharpen them.


Well, I think for people who are not getting excited over a Nakayama Maruka Japanese natural sharpening stone like I do, this might really be all the will need from now on. But us steel- and sharpening enthusiasts still will enjoy steel knives for decades to come I think and as long as people want me to, I will continue to make steel knives. Also, high toughness applications like bushcraft still are too intense for this material - yet. I like to compare the elastic H.I.C. ceramic to bakelite: when it was invented, it was ground breaking and started the age of polymers. But we have come so far in polymer development in the following 50 years. So who knows what the elastic ceramic will be capable of in 5, 10, 20, heck 30years?? I think it will be very interesting in any case!


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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)

Jason183 said:


> It probably won’t be good for tougher tasks since you need the stiffness to cut through ingredients without any bending distraction, but I can see it works good as filleting knife since it’s so flexible.


See the latest video I linked here, but yes, thicker stock is required and we will make it eventually for tougher applications outside the kitchen. No idea how well that will work; only one way to find out I guess. In that regard also see my bakelite-analogy above; this elastic ceramic is the first of God knows of how many more further developed versions. The future surely is interesting I think...


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## Luftmensch (Apr 10, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Do we really need to tell people to wash off wd40 from a knife before making food with it? some things are just obvious.



... the public do some pretty dumb things.

As a retailer I would do what I could to minimise exposure to that stupidity. If it is as simple as recommending using vegetable oil as a lubricant instead of WD40... you bet i would do that. Why risk being linked to somebody else's lack of 'common' sense? I bet the vast majority of people dont know what an MSDS is... let alone regularly read them...

My advice is not a criticism of @Roman... Hopefully just constructive advice so he can put his best foot forward when marketing to the public.




Barmoley said:


> I think these knives if they prove to be what they seem will work for the majority of the public.



Absolutely! We often forget how dispassionate the majority of people are about their kitchen knives.





Roman said:


> thicker stock is required



That would be interesting. I dont know what your manufacturing limitations are... but a thicker spine would be welcome. A flexible tip (say the last third) suits me but *I* would prefer a more rigid heel/belly. Although... as @Jason183 said... the flexibility could be good for filleting. 

My last piece of advice (not that you asked ) would be to consult some pro-chefs on profiles and handles. Do a pass around or get some into professional kitchen on the condition you get fair and critical advice in return. You might get some notes on how the material (flexibility) and profile interact in a production environment. This speaks to @Chef Doom's point. On the handle, it looks contoured... which might be 'ergonomic'... but only one definition of it. There are a bunch of grips out there - hammer grip, pinch grip, point grip... You don't want to necessarily eliminate any of these or let the handle dictate which one you use...

If you are doing well with orders, you might even consider speaking to somebody with good industrial design to think about how you can 'sexy' it up for a mass market??

All said in good faith...  it is an interesting project. I will be following your progress. I might even have to try a MKII blade


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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)

Chef Doom said:


> Don't get me wrong. I think products like these are great for various reasons. But my issue is why do they always use the types of tests you would use for a folder or utility knife on a kitchen knife? None of this shows me how this will perform in any kitchen be it home or professional. I would prefer that they prepare a meal or chop and slice a bunch of food. Maybe a video showing several days of prep? Who knows.
> 
> These tests would be great if I was looking for a ceramic folder.


That is a very good point. The simple reasons for this are that A) I don't have the skills in the kitchen that I feel like I should demonstrate this. And B) that I first and foremost wanted to take people's concerns about the material being fragile away. That being said, I think now it is the time to do exactly what you suggested. Either myself anyways or one of the chefs we have given these to for trying (they loved them).
The behind the edge geometry is significantly thinner than what you usually find on similar priced (70-100usd), mass produced knives, so it cuts really nice compared to those. Yet when you are used to a 600usd custom knife with a flexible edge, you might like it, but maybe you still want to buy one of my steel knives after all.
Personally I think the behind the edge plus overall geometry is really nice when compared to what is out there on the mass market. (Working on a version with Wa handle I MIGHT will have ground thinner - still testing.)

EDIT: quickly walked to the workshop to double check before I give you a wrong number: The bte (behind the edge) is 0.28 to 0.3millimeters. Which, in comparison to often 0.5 to 0.6mm steel knives in that price range, is nice I think. I did grind one to 0.1millimeters behind the edge, and for me it works, but putting such a geometry on the mass produced version is not something I would feel comfortable with. Special version runs for "people like us" are a different story of course, but also for this I need to test more.


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## Luftmensch (Apr 10, 2021)

Roman said:


> That is a very good point. The simple reasons for this are that A) I don't have the skills in the kitchen that I feel like I should demonstrate this. And B) that I first and foremost wanted to take people's concerns about the material being fragile away. That being said, I think now it is the time to do exactly what you suggested.



Personally, I am happy translating/equating rope cutting or CATRA into kitchen durability. Cutting is cutting.

That said, I think the value you would get from having the knife run through its paces in a kitchen is feedback on profile and ergonomics. There also might be unexpected events that give you valuable information. Chucking dirty plates on top of the knife while it is in the bottom of a sink?. An obvious question for a rough and tumble knife is "is the knife dishwasher safe".... probably??


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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)

Michi said:


> Yes. How well the knife actually works depends in large part on the feel and handling and balance. But these things are quite difficult to show in a video anyway.
> 
> I expect something thin, super-sharp, and very light. I have no doubt that it will work well for general-purpose veggie prep and the like. It'll probably also do really well for slicing salami, medium-hard cheeses, and similar. I doubt that it would work well for hard things, such as pumpkin, or for skinning a pineapple.
> 
> My wife will probably like it because it'll be sharp, won't need sharpening all the time, and is light. We'll see in a few weeks…


I am looking forward to your review! And I also make nice steel knives ya know


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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Hey it is @Chef Doom!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While I think that wiping off the wd40 oil should go without saying; even if someone is not smart enough to wipe off the WD40, I chose WD40 because it is not labeled as toxic and known to pretty much everyone on the world. No chance that this amount would kill someone - besides the horrible taste the food would take from it. But having this in mind, I also mentioned the olive oil as an alternative. The best choice of course is a natural honing oil, which unlike olive oil won't get rancid and I I will recommend natural honing oil like many carpenters use on their arkansas shrapening stones in the sharpening video I am working on.

Regarding the "soul" of a handmade knife like I make them for my (yet) main business: these knives feel totally different. They feel high tech, futuristic, intriguing. Different than ceramic like we know it, too btw! Yet my love for steel knives will never die and I think while the market for mass produced steel knives is in big trouble because of this (just my opinion) a handcrafted steel knife will always sell. At least I sure hope so, because that is my passion and how I came to work with the elastic ceramic material in the first place.


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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Hey it is @Chef Doom!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





AT5760 said:


> As a fixed blade utility knife or EDC folder, one of these could be really appealing. I wonder how these edges stand up to cardboard, zip ties, and such?


See second video I


Barmoley said:


> Do we really need to tell people to wash off wd40 from a knife before making food with it? some things are just obvious. I think these knives if they prove to be what they seem will work for the majority of the public. For people here who like to sharpen and to agonize over all the minute details these won’t work as far as gyuto go. I bought a few and if these will work as I hope I’ll buy them for gifts for friends and family. These are cheap enough where you can replace them every few years and never have to sharpen them. The smaller knives will work as is for anyone as these are petty size and balance, weight and grind are less relevant there.
> 
> The tests are to prove that these are different from other ceramic knives, that’s why they seem irrelevant to cooking. Everyone just keeps on saying how chippy ceramic knives are without reading or knowing anything about this new material. Roman just tried to show these are different, at least this is how it looks to me.



Thank you, you took the words out of my mouth. A knife for those who "just want a sharp knife that stays sharp and gives them no trouble". Not a Vanax Superclean cladded, Vancron Superclean core Yanagiba with tripple cryo tempering and all handmade. Things like that will always be my love and I think of many other people as well, even more so traditionally forged, japanese knives. But 95% of knife users aren't like us in this forum. 

Finally I can give a knife to my grandmother without having to cringe every time when visiting her and seeing how dull that poor thing is.


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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Personally, I am happy translating/equating rope cutting or CATRA into kitchen durability. Cutting is cutting.
> 
> That said, I think the value you would get from having the knife run through its paces in a kitchen is feedback on profile and ergonomics. There also might be unexpected events that give you valuable information. Chucking dirty plates on top of the knife while it is in the bottom of a sink?. An obvious question for a rough and tumble knife is "is the knife dishwasher safe".... probably??


We had several chefs test these and they loved it. (Of course it had to be tested in extended kitchen use before starting to sell these. And the feedback was overwhelmingly positive.) Yet it is not easy - at least locally in Switzerland - to find a chef both fluent in English AND willing to do a Youtube video on it. As soon as these knives are out in the wild, I think this will change very fast and people can find out for themselves if they like it. Which I am very confident they will, based on the feedback from people testing it.

As for dishwasher safe, the blade sure is, the handle we are putting on currently SHOULD be dishwasher save, but before we haven't 100% confirmed the resilience of the handle material against the dishwasher, we officially recommend washing the knife by hand. It's kinda funny, but finding a handle material that matches the "dishwasher proofness" of ceramic is much trickier than thought. Especially at that price. The blade won't be affected by hours of immersion even in various concentrated acids - it also meets all requirements for a biocompatible material. Meaning that it can be implanted in the human body without causing any trouble. (Needs certification of course and stuff, to officially be that, but it meets the requirements.)


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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)

As a final post, I want to say that I will try to answer all questions asap, but the amount of messages I am getting on all my channels is HUGE currently. So please forgive me if I overlook some and just ask me again.


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## Michi (Apr 10, 2021)

Roman said:


> I am looking forward to your review! And I also make nice steel knives ya know


I know… And I need more knives approximately as much as a hole in the head


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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> ... the public do some pretty dumb things.
> 
> As a retailer I would do what I could to minimise exposure to that stupidity. If it is as simple as recommending using vegetable oil as a lubricant instead of WD40... you bet i would do that. Why risk being linked to somebody else's lack of 'common' sense? I bet the vast majority of people dont know what an MSDS is... let alone regularly read them...
> 
> ...


We simultaneously replied it seems - some of your points I already adressed; most importantly the one about WD40 and the feedback of professional chefs using the knife. While the feedback we got was great, what some people want(ed) is a wider blade. Which is absolutely possible and basically depends on supply and demand. More grip shapes are coming as well - for me most importantly being a Wa handle because I just prefer these; probaly because I am a knife snob. The current handle design has only one focus: ergonomics. (Which again, pro chef really liked, but the more handles we have, the better, so more are in the works; namely the Wa Handle as a start.)

EDIT: And of course, I / we NEED criticism - especially for something so entirely new. Fun fact about the handles: People seem to visually either like them a lot or not at all, but what everyone so far, be it a pro chef or home cook alike, agreed on was that they are both comfortable over extended use and suitable for all grips. Yet again, once people have these knives and use them, we will get much more very valuable feedback and can (and will; either way!) offer more options.


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## Michi (Apr 10, 2021)

To be fair, I don't think it's necessary to tell people that they need to wipe and wash a knife after having been in contact with WD-40. One whiff of the stuff, and people will do that reflexively all by themselves, without any further instructions


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## Roman (Apr 10, 2021)

Michi said:


> To be fair, I don't think it's necessary to tell people that they need to wipe and wash a knife after having been in contact with WD-40. One whiff of the stuff, and people will do that reflexively all by themselves, without any further instructions


Exactly my thinking. But it is a good point - just to be on the safe side - that we will, once the sharpening video and maybe also some "official sharpening guidlines" on the website are up, only recommend natural honing oil. Better safe than sorry.


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## Michi (Apr 10, 2021)

Roman said:


> Better safe than sorry.


Sure thing. While you are at it, please do also tell them that it is a bad idea to add lead, plutonium, or cyanide. Just in case…


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## Luftmensch (Apr 10, 2021)

@Roman... what a dude!

Thank you for taking the time to reply . Not that it really matters for the success of the flexible ceramic... but you seem like a nice guy from your videos ... Although, _it is_ more pleasing to support a nice, friendly and humble persona 

Sorry if I sounded negative. I do mean to be constructive. I am excited for your potential. Other knife fads have had their time in the spotlight and relied only on clever marking. You appear to be offering something genuinely new! That is pretty darned cool!




Roman said:


> Regarding the "soul" of a handmade knife



Ha! Dont take that too harshly.

For the last three years or so, kitchen knives have been one of my hobbies. As a result I place too much interest in minutiae. But I can be pretty sentimental about anything I have had for long enough. My car is probably one of the most ubiquitous cars on the planet. It is not _special_. But it is _mine_. I have had it for almost 20 years and a lot of shared experience with it.

I suppose it is like the Rifleman's Creed (Full metal Jacket): "_This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine._"




Roman said:


> But 95% of knife users aren't like us in this forum.



 You're probably being generous there... I wouldnt be surprised if it was 99%... or 99.9%. I think most people just use what is available, cost effective and convenient.


Keep at it! As I am sure you are well aware, balancing the trade-offs in making something affordable are not easy. So you get extra kudos from me for pushing this into a reasonable price bracket. That is not something we tend to talk about much in KKF!!


(Looking forward to a Wa-handle and thicker spine )


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## Mingooch (Apr 11, 2021)

Just preordered one. Should be fun to play with


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## HumbleHomeCook (Apr 11, 2021)

WD40 is almost all mineral oil. The other stuff nearly completely evaporates leaving behind the oil. Of course one should wipe it off, but I mean, you'd do that with most any oil right? I can't imagine how many times you'd have to use the knife with traces of WD40 on it for it to even give an upset stomach. Leastwise, that's my opinion.

But, nothing wrong with an abundance of caution either.


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## Migraine (Apr 11, 2021)

I put WD40 on my cornflakes to keep me regular


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## Moooza (Jun 4, 2021)

My order has shipped. Should arrive Tuesday.


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## riba (Jul 22, 2021)

Curious to hear about the experiences...


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## Moooza (Jul 22, 2021)

It is sharp. It pushes through bread with no resistance, like nothing I've ever seen. But, it wedges a bit, even though it's super thin, and the choil is sharp.


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## natto (Jul 22, 2021)

I'ld like some specs, description and a shop. Is that available on "old" media?


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## Michi (Jul 24, 2021)

I still haven't had time to properly try it out. But my wife instantly adopted it. It's her one and only knife now.

The thing is sharp, and it handles well. I suspect it won't need sharpening for a few years.

I'll make it a point to use it to prepare something substantial and post impressions here.


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## Michi (Jul 30, 2021)

I did some cooking last night and used the knife to cut up a whole bunch of veggies. Potato, garlic, celery, onion, leeks, fresh herbs.

No complaints about sharpness, it cuts through everything with ease. The blade is quite thin, so there are no issues with wedging. The flat area is long enough to work well, and I didn't end up with any accordions, even though I was cutting fairly casually and not focussing on using the best possible technique.

Because the sides of the knife are dead straight and polished, food release isn't the greatest. When dicing raw potato, I had to put up with bits sticking to the side of the blade, or drag the knife through the stacked potato slices with the tip down, which left the pieces on the board instead of sticking to the side.

One thing I noticed is that the blade steers a little to the right. This was noticeable when I had half of a large russet potato flat on the board and was slicing through with the blade parallel to the board. Cutting right to left, I ended up with slices that were thinner on the left than the right, even though I'm fairly sure that I started the cut parallel to the board.

I'm not a fan of ultra-light knives, and this one is no exception. There is essentially no heft in the knife at all, so "letting the knife do the work" just doesn't work as it does with some of my heavier knives. Instead, I have to apply a bit of muscle because there is almost zero momentum in the knife once I've started the cut.

As a universal kitchen knife, I think this is a winner. Except for really big produce, the knife competently handles pretty much everything. I guess you could call it the western equivalent of a santoku. Not super-good at anything, but pretty good at everything.

One complaint: the top of the spine has right angles that are quite sharp. When using a pinch grip, the top right edge digs into my forefinger a bit. I suspect that, after an extended session, I might end up with a blister or at least slightly irritated skin. For future iterations, rounding off those edges a little would be a nice touch.

Now I'll have to wait until the knife finally will need sharpening. It's getting daily use but, despite that, I expect it'll stay sharp for many months. When it finally goes blunt, I guess I'll get to find out how much of a pain it is to sharpen


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## dafox (Jul 30, 2021)

Looks like the original pic is gone, can you supply a new one?


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## Michi (Jul 30, 2021)




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## Migraine (Jul 31, 2021)

Michi said:


> View attachment 135997


Has it lost it's tip?


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## Michi (Jul 31, 2021)

Migraine said:


> Has it lost it's tip?


No. It comes with a rounded tip. Rahven now also have a version with a normal pointy tip.


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## Migraine (Jul 31, 2021)




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## mengwong (Jan 1, 2023)

Michi said:


> Now I'll have to wait until the knife finally will need sharpening. It's getting daily use but, despite that, I expect it'll stay sharp for many months. When it finally goes blunt, I guess I'll get to find out how much of a pain it is to sharpen


Very curious to learn how this knife has performed over the past couple years of use – has it needed sharpening yet?


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## Barmoley (Jan 1, 2023)

I was impressed at first but not so much lately. It is definitely better than the rest of the ceramic knives but it being very thin bendy and light is not to my liking. It also still chips a little and I haven't been able to sharpen it reliably. So for me in it's current form it is not as good as I hoped. Spyderco has been talking about making a mule with this, and if that is thicker as other mules, maybe then it will be more interesting cool material for sure, but knives in their current form are not that interesting.


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## Michi (Jan 1, 2023)

mengwong said:


> Very curious to learn how this knife has performed over the past couple years of use – has it needed sharpening yet?


I hardly ever use that knife, but my wife uses it daily. I just checked, and it is still sharp. No chipping at this point.

I strongly suspect that trying to sharpen this myself would be futile. Maybe with cubic boron or diamond, but I don't have those kinds of stones. When it gets blunt, I think I'll just send it back to Switzerland for sharpening. At the current rate, that might well be another three years away…


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## riba (Jan 1, 2023)

Michi said:


> I hardly ever use that knife, but my wife uses it daily.


Would you mind elaborating a little bit why you hardly ever use it?

Does it make sense for a non knife oriented person as main chef knife?


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## mengwong (Jan 1, 2023)

riba said:


> Does it make sense for a non knife oriented person as main chef knife?


This does seem to be a pretty strong candidate for the “one and done” requests that come along every so often from people who don’t want to sharpen…


Michi said:


> I just checked, and it is still sharp. No chipping at this point.





Michi said:


> At the current rate, that might well be another three years away…



Only cause for pause is—


Barmoley said:


> It also still chips a little


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## riba (Jan 1, 2023)

mengwong said:


> This does seem to be a pretty strong candidate for the “one and done” requests that come along every so often from people who don’t want to sharpen…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've been watching this thread from the beginning as it sounded perfect for this purpose!


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## mengwong (Jan 1, 2023)

Yeah, I’m wondering why this didn’t come up in Which Knife Should I Buy?


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## Barmoley (Jan 1, 2023)

mengwong said:


> This does seem to be a pretty strong candidate for the “one and done” requests that come along every so often from people who don’t want to sharpen…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got 3 of these all in different sizes and convinced my friend to get 3 as well. My knives came pretty sharp especially the 180 mm one. His came kind of dull, enough not to easily cut tomatoes. This given that these are not easy to sharpen is a problem in my opinion. These were from the time these just became available, so maybe not an issue anymore.

My small paring knife wasn't as sharp as I wanted, so I've decided to sharpen it since I wanted to know how difficult this would be. I haven't been able to do it. I tried various diamond stones. I also tried diamond stones from edge pro with wd40, but I was unable to make the knife sharper, if anything I might have dulled it a bit. I know that others have been successful sharpening these, using my methods and also using diamond film. It is possible to do, but I didn't succeed. Besides the material being very hard and wear resistant it is also black and doesn't create a noticeable burr, this makes it very difficult for me to tell if I am hitting the apex.

My 180.mm has been used by everyone without any supervision and the other day I've noticed some microchipping on the edge. The knife is still sharp and microchips don't seem to cause any noticeable issues, but they are there. I am not sure what happened and it ultimately isn't a big deal since the chips are few and tiny except that the knife is so hard to sharpen. 

The knife is too light and flexible, I think if it was a bit sturdier and thicker it might feel better in use.

So I still think it is probably a pretty good option for non knife people with the idea that you basically throw it away after it gets too dull in a few years.


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## Michi (Jan 2, 2023)

riba said:


> Would you mind elaborating a little bit why you hardly ever use it?
> 
> Does it make sense for a non knife oriented person as main chef knife?


I don’t use it much because it is too light for my taste. I do think it would work fine as a main chef’s knife.


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