# How to Get SS Knives Really Sharp?



## designdog (Apr 9, 2015)

I have been involved with Japanese knives for several years now, starting with a Mizuno Tanrenjo gyuto back in 2008. As would be expected, I have developed quite a collection knives, most of which are carbon, but also some Ginsan. As my collection grew I also grew my sharpening skills. Like many, I started with Chosera stones, then added stones from Maxsim and Jon, and other synthetics. Sometime last year I got into Japanese naturals, and now have a really good collection of those stones. Pretty much sharpen exclusively with Jnats now.

Lately I have developed an interest in the Western knife makers. Ive acquired a couple of Devins, a Marko, and Ealy, HHH, and Rodrigue. These were second hand knives, except for a Marko which is on the way. Unlike my carbon knives, these are mostly AEB-L, and therein lies my problem: I just cant seem to get them as sharp as my carbon knives. 

My typical sharpening sequence is as follows: Aoto, Mid Polish (Ohira Suita, Shinden Suita, etc.), Final Polish (Nakayama Tomae). My process is a reducing number of strokes on one side, flip it over and repeat on the other. Usually 25, 20, 15, 10, 5. Of course I am eyeballing and feeling the edge along the way, but I like a framework in my mind. I finish by stropping on horse.

I have tried this with my SS knives. I do get a burr with my harder Aoto, or an Aizu. (I have lower grit stones, natural and synthetic, but dont really use them unless I have a problem.) I also acknowledge that the feeling of SS knives on the Jnats is not as pleasant as carbon. And they are just not getting as sharp.

So, what to do? I can simply use the same stones and up the repetitions (significantly) on the polishing stones (I am getting a burr on the Aotos) or I can revert to synthetics. In that case I would use the Gesshin 2, 4, and 8k, and maybe the Chosera 10k?

I am not going crazy with these American knives, as there seems to be a predilection to exotic handles and (in my mind) unbelievably glitzy Damascus. But I do like the plain ones, appreciate the heat treatment, profile and grind. Just want to be able to sharpen them!


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## Andrey V (Apr 9, 2015)

designdog said:


> I have been involved with Japanese knives for several years now, starting with a Mizuno Tanrenjo gyuto back in 2008. As would be expected, I have developed quite a collection knives, most of which are carbon, but also some Ginsan. As my collection grew I also grew my sharpening skills. Like many, I started with Chosera stones, then added stones from Maxsim and Jon, and other synthetics. Sometime last year I got into Japanese naturals, and now have a really good collection of those stones. Pretty much sharpen exclusively with Jnats now.
> 
> Lately I have developed an interest in the Western knife makers. Ive acquired a couple of Devins, a Marko, and Ealy, HHH, and Rodrigue. These were second hand knives, except for a Marko which is on the way. Unlike my carbon knives, these are mostly AEB-L, and therein lies my problem: I just cant seem to get them as sharp as my carbon knives.
> 
> ...



Hi here as well. 
First of all to improve something ( to give some ideas) I would like to see how do you do it. 
It depends what ss knife/ steel do you take. PM knives need different stones, then " normal" ss knives. But generally speaking you won't get them that sharp as carbons...[emoji24][emoji24][emoji24]. 
The best way is to stop on good Aoto sharpening- ss knives have a common feature - due to high chromium content it ( like VG-10) it becomes really sharp for a very limited period of time, then in holds the edge quite long. 
PM knives can have good ( better) retention. But you sharpen them better on synthetic stones. All in all- you see the difference between ss and carbons. I would recommend to leave your ss knives for common use, and have your nice carbons for precise tasks.


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## designdog (Apr 9, 2015)

Thanks Andrey  for venturing over here and for your advice. Unfortunately these SS knives are very fine, and very expensive (!) so I want to make them the equal or better of my other carbon knives. I have been thinking: since SS is harder, I should expect to work them a bit harder on the stones. More repetitions. What I am going to try now is a trick I read about here (perhaps Dave Martell?) I will go back to my next-to-last stone, then finish again. In this case the Ohira Suita, and the Nakayama Tomae.

Then, for my next full sharpening round, I will double the reps on the final two stones. May have to work harder on the SS, but should have to sharpen less?:scared4:


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## Andrey V (Apr 9, 2015)

designdog said:


> Thanks Andrey  for venturing over here and for your advice. Unfortunately these SS knives are very fine, and very expensive (!) so I want to make them the equal or better of my other carbon knives. I have been thinking: since SS is harder, I should expect to work them a bit harder on the stones. More repetitions. What I am going to try now is a trick I read about here (perhaps Dave Martell?) I will go back to my next-to-last stone, then finish again. In this case the Ohira Suita, and the Nakayama Tomae.
> 
> Then, for my next full sharpening round, I will double the reps on the final two stones. May have to work harder on the SS, but should have to sharpen less?:scared4:



Yours ss are harder? PM steel? Important to know the type of the steel and the brand. 
Only PM is harder then good carbons. You can go mad doing same as on carbons. 
Please check it. 
According to the steel type/ hardness you should move in your progression vers harder or softer stones. If yours are hard, do it on hard stones. I have experimented a lot with ss knives as well. The most " hard to defeat" are the PM knives. Waiting for your reply


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## Andrey V (Apr 9, 2015)

BTW- on hard ss knives some false stropping can round the edge= loose of sharpness
Tell me pls- is that like coming from med stones to finer stones in that knives means to get " soapy" edge?


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## skiajl6297 (Apr 9, 2015)

I've found with my stainless knives, they just prefer synths. I tend to stop most of them around 4k (Gesshin 4k) and then strop on felt. They get pesky burrs /wire edges as well, which can be hard to detect and even harder to remove. The finer you go on stainless with naturals especially (in my limited experience) the more likely you are to make a very good synth edge worse. I do not have many stones all around, but found I just prefer carbon for some tasks, and stainless for others. Natural stones for some, synths for others. If you had a ton of naturals, as we've read on the jnat posts, try them all and see what works. I (personally) haven't yet found a natural that does to stainless exactly what it does to carbon.

Also, plus one for Andrey's observation that some stainless steels (including your inbound Rodrigue) get wicked sharp, lose a touch of sharpness, and then hang around at like 90% for a long time. If you like to operate exclusively in the margins of 90-100% sharp, stainless is probably not as good as carbon. But you can have a knife that doesn't rust, doesn't need much attention, and can stay really sharp for a long long time at that 90%. Definitely curious to see how you feel about the Rodrigue with respect to sharpening!


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## Andrey V (Apr 9, 2015)

skiajl6297 said:


> I've found with my stainless knives, they just prefer synths. I tend to stop most of them around 4k (Gesshin 4k) and then strop on felt. They get pesky burrs /wire edges as well, which can be hard to detect and even harder to remove. The finer you go on stainless with naturals especially (in my limited experience) the more likely you are to make a very good synth edge worse. I do not have many stones all around, but found I just prefer carbon for some tasks, and stainless for others. Natural stones for some, synths for others. If you had a ton of naturals, as we've read on the jnat posts, try them all and see what works. I (personally) haven't yet found a natural that does to stainless exactly what it does to carbon.
> 
> Also, plus one for Andrey's observation that some stainless steels (including your inbound Rodrigue) get wicked sharp, lose a touch of sharpness, and then hang around at like 90% for a long time. If you like to operate exclusively in the margins of 90-100% sharp, stainless is probably not as good as carbon. But you can have a knife that doesn't rust, doesn't need much attention, and can stay really sharp for a long long time at that 90%. Definitely curious to see how you feel about the Rodrigue with respect to sharpening!



You confirm my idea. Exactly what i think. [emoji120]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;[emoji111]&#127995;&#65039;
Different knives- different tasks. 
SS are normally so, as discussed here, no need to fight with nature.


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 9, 2015)

Its hard to argue with personal imperical experience but I beg to differ Andrey. 

In my experience, properly HT modern stainless steels are not hard to sharpen. Now I do agree that the carbon knives I've owned (Takeda, Yusuki, Moritaka, Carter, Takayuki, Tadafusa, Heiji, forge craft...) sharpen quicker than stainless, for me the process is the same though. 

My stainless knives are Kono Ginsan, DT ITL AEBL, Marko AEBL, Sakai Yusuki, Kono HD (semi), Kramer WS Meiji in SG2, Shun, Mac. 

I keep these babies screaming with a dry strop of Dave Martells Takenono. I prefer that stone even to his hard felt strop. Something magical about that stone and quality stainless, its really an under rated high grit IMO. My reference sharpness is quietely slicing through folded thin phone book paper.


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## cheflivengood (Apr 9, 2015)

Definitely agree that 4-5k is the stopping point for stainless, and double bevels for me in general. I even find that over stropping on my last stone (gesshin 4k, or red AOTO for double bevel) will make the edge too "perfect" or "slippery", so ill go back to sharpening back and forth motion a few times on both sides to "messy" up the edge. This gives it that carbon toothiness. I guess since the modern stainless is so compact and consistent it makes over polishing easy.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Apr 9, 2015)

Mucho Bocho, don't take it wrong, but the point here is not that SS is harder to sharpen on jnats? By the way, i'm curious about the Takenono. How do you compare it with the 8K Kitayama?


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 9, 2015)

Oh I guess I didn't get that point. I thought we were talking in categorical terms. I haven't messed with a kitayama but the takenono sits in the kitchen for quick access. Maybe Dave will chime in


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## gic (Apr 9, 2015)

I like to strop on balsa with 1 micron diamond spray after I finish a stone progression. I can't tell the difference between carbon and say my Devin ITK after that.

Also have you thought about lowering the angle a bit more for the stainless, steels like aeb-l properly heat treated can easily take a 10 degree angle (possibly with a one sided microbevel a la Jon's video...)


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## Asteger (Apr 9, 2015)

Not sure what can be added to the above. However, I like AV and S####'s thoughts:



Andrey V said:


> ss knives have a common feature - due to high chromium content it ( like VG-10) it becomes really sharp for a very limited period of time, then in holds the edge quite long.





skiajl6297 said:


> Also, plus one for Andrey's observation that some stainless steels (including your inbound Rodrigue) get wicked sharp, lose a touch of sharpness, and then hang around at like 90% for a long time. If you like to operate exclusively in the margins of 90-100% sharp, stainless is probably not as good as carbon.



On a micro-level I can imagine it like this, with the greater mix in the SS able to hold a shape around the edge and provide that '90%'. (Interesting ideas with the figures.) However, compared to in C knives, in SS the purer carbon structures aren't there as much to support and extend to the very edge. And so maybe if you can get a very sharp initial '100%-type' edge with your SS after sharpening, if possible, then the sharpest 10% bit will not hold as well and retreat quicker than you'd expect, as the sharpest reaches won't have the same support, but then after you'll be left with a strong 90% basis that lasts well but won't have the same cutting edge. I'd expect a C edge not to dull in the same way; when SS erodes it might keep a rounder or more uniform shape, due to the mix of molecules 'filling in' the gaps (dear, I hope real scientists aren't reading this and having a laugh...) whereas C-steel might provide more rigid bits that tend to break off rather than wear down. Something like that.

If you feel you can't get to that '100%' I don't know what to say, DD, other than your experimentation ideas sound good along with the others. I'm actually very limited with SS myself. Stropping on a stone, as opposed to leather, also sounds promising. Maybe the composition of SS means it's more likely to get too polished due to some types of stropping? 



Mucho Bocho said:


> I keep these babies screaming with a dry strop of Dave Martells Takenono.



Jogged my memory. Is the Takenono - or 'Takenoko' isn't it? - the same as the Arashiyama 6k? I remember reading something somewhere. I've got one, an Arashiyama, and have tried some strops as you said and, yes, it does seem good for that. Nice one. 

(Arashiyama & Takenoko: Makes sense too. The Arashiyama area in Kyoto is known for its Bamboo Forest and 'takenoko' means bamboo shoot. Sounds like a connection.)


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## chinacats (Apr 9, 2015)

This thread is a great follow-up to the one with the knife expert talking about how much better stainless is than carbon. :biggrin:

To the OP, my guess is that you're leaving a small wire edge that you're having a hard time detecting...harder to pick up with the finishers you're using.


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## designdog (Apr 9, 2015)

I think I answered my question. Simply a matter of more strokes on the stones with SS than carbon. As mentioned above, I went back to it, and the result is as sharp as any of my carbon knives.

Some comments per the above:

Everyone has his favorite stone(s). Never much cared for my Takenono (Kitayama) liked the Gesshin and JNS better.

I always finish with a leather strop, so no wire edges. Also been using Dave's felt burr remover thingie.

I think it's just a matter of "ebo greeese..."


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## Asteger (Apr 9, 2015)

Therefore: longer-lasting though not as sharp edges, and longer-lasting sharpening sessions!



chinacats said:


> This thread is a great follow-up to the one with the knife expert talking about how much better stainless is than carbon. :biggrin:



Missed it. Which is that one?


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## Geo87 (Apr 9, 2015)

It's already been said but I'll reiterate. 
Stainless is harder to deburr. 
I've had success with deburring a little on every stone I raise a burr on. Then really go slow and focus on the final finishing stone. It will take more effort to deburr than carbon which seems to just fall off sometimes lol.


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 9, 2015)

Asteger, indeed I was speaking of the Takenoko not Takenono or is it Yoko Ono, ah, that's another topic. ;-)


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## designdog (Apr 9, 2015)

Geo87 said:


> It's already been said but I'll reiterate.
> Stainless is harder to deburr.
> I've had success with deburring a little on every stone I raise a burr on. Then really go slow and focus on the final finishing stone. It will take more effort to deburr than carbon which seems to just fall off sometimes lol.



I agree. But I also think Jnats, especially the "higher grit" stones, have less tendency to create burrs in the first place. Although they do sharpen quite well. It is the mystery of the slurry, or, as our good friend Takeshi calls it, "natural mystics."


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## labor of love (Apr 9, 2015)

Generally with stainless knives I will spend more time on a low grit and medium grit stone than I would sharpening carbon, and obviously making sure to deburr( I use felt for this) before i go to the next stone in the progression. I strop more also. But dont become reliant on how long the process is taking, just check the edge with you fingers making sure the edge is as sharp as it should be.


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## designdog (Apr 9, 2015)

All good advice. Going to go back to synth on my next run, just to compare.

Let's get back to the Takenoko, since I have one. Can you describe what "dry stropping" on this stone is about? And what stones do you proceed this with?

Thanks.


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## panda (Apr 9, 2015)

Don't use polishing grits on stainless.


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## chinacats (Apr 9, 2015)

Asteger said:


> Therefore: longer-lasting though not as sharp edges, and longer-lasting sharpening sessions!
> 
> 
> 
> Missed it. Which is that one?




You can find it here.

Your first comment sums it all up quite well imo. :biggrin:

Cheers


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## Andrey V (Apr 10, 2015)

labor of love said:


> Generally with stainless knives I will spend more time on a low grit and medium grit stone than I would sharpening carbon, and obviously making sure to deburr( I use felt for this) before i go to the next stone in the progression. I strop more also. But dont become reliant on how long the process is taking, just check the edge with you fingers making sure the edge is as sharp as it should be.



Agree on one important point: DD said he uses the system of 25/29/15/10 whatever strokes on each side. Can be, sure. 
I think the best way ( though everyone can believe in his own way) is still to inspect the edge with your fingers. 
Nothing says more then this. Maybe tongue, it's more sensitive, but licking the blade would be dangerous [emoji12][emoji12]. 
As to me i never count strokes- i just look on the blade and touch it. That's all. When satisfied- stop.


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## malexthekid (Apr 10, 2015)

Andrey V said:


> Agree on one important point: DD said he uses the system of 25/29/15/10 whatever strokes on each side. Can be, sure.
> I think the best way ( though everyone can believe in his own way) is still to inspect the edge with your fingers.
> Nothing says more then this. Maybe tongue, it's more sensitive, but licking the blade would be dangerous [emoji12][emoji12].
> As to me i never count strokes- i just look on the blade and touch it. That's all. When satisfied- stop.



This. While I am no accomplished sharpener, I get decent edges which seem to get a little better each time I sharpener.

I took a knife sharpening course with Jon when in LA last year and the number of strokes never came up, his advice was to continuously check the burr, make sure it is consistent along the length of the knife. Once it is, you are the read to do the other side.


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## designdog (Apr 10, 2015)

Sorry for the poor explanation. I just use the "number routine" as a guideline. Most certainly I eyeball and feel each edge as I go through the routine.

"Feeling the burr" gets a lot harder as you move up the progression, particularly with natural stones. There really is no burr, at least that I can easily feel. With my "system" I am certain that I never under sharpen. Over sharpening is never a problem.:evil grin:

Now, I have learned that with SS knives I will have to up my number of reps in this system. Double? Probably not, but I will start there and back down, using my fingers and eyeballs to judge...


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## ThEoRy (Apr 10, 2015)

designdog said:


> Over sharpening is never a problem.:evil grin:



The more you sharpen your knife, the more rapidly you erode it's useful life.


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## Andrey V (Apr 10, 2015)

designdog said:


> Sorry for the poor explanation. I just use the "number routine" as a guideline. Most certainly I eyeball and feel each edge as I go through the routine.
> 
> "Feeling the burr" gets a lot harder as you move up the progression, particularly with natural stones. There really is no burr, at least that I can easily feel. With my "system" I am certain that I never under sharpen. Over sharpening is never a problem.:evil grin:
> 
> Now, I have learned that with SS knives I will have to up my number of reps in this system. Double? Probably not, but I will start there and back down, using my fingers and eyeballs to judge...



&#128077;&#127995;
Eyeballs are the best balls for this matter&#128540;&#128540;&#128540;


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## designdog (Apr 10, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> The more you sharpen your knife, the more rapidly you erode it's useful life.




As I just turned 70, and have about 50 of these things, knife erosion is not a major concern for me...


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## Asteger (Apr 10, 2015)

designdog said:


> As I just turned 70, and have about 50 of these things, knife erosion is not a major concern for me...



Touché!

I sharpen too much because I like to try new stuff out. That said, I'm happy it's with nats almost all the time. Not as big of a deal that way. Of course, when people talk about their fav stones you hear a lot of 'speed, speed, speed'. However, I recently got 2-3 new synths to try, and the sudden burr flap flying off my edge seemed almost obscene. My knife seemed to lose a huge slice off its old height just like that. I'm nowhere near 70, but do hope I'll be able to use what I have then - so long as I'm not bored by then. (Should start saving up now for those future knives by Watanabe & Kato's sons and Shigefusa's grandson in order to solve the tedium.)


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## Andrey V (Apr 10, 2015)

designdog said:


> As I just turned 70, and have about 50 of these things, knife erosion is not a major concern for me...



Exactly!! It's time to have fun if it!! 
I can't say my knives tend to wear down [emoji12]. 
Having 50+ of them there will be always some still big/long/wide enough to be used [emoji41][emoji41]. 
After all, the Jnat sharpening isn't that fatal for the knife as synthetic one.


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## Asteger (Apr 10, 2015)

Andrey V said:


> ...After all, the Jnat sharpening isn't that fatal for the knife as synthetic one.



And, wink, wink, if you don't want to you probably won't need to sharpen as often anyway.

But, AV, surely you'd also advocate having fun now. I hope to, but also hope that I can use stuff I'm buying now decades into the future - that's the idea - as I won't be following this stuff forever and one must always find new hobbies & interests.


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## ThEoRy (Apr 10, 2015)

Not everyone has 50 gyutos though and oversharpening should be of concern. Why remove more steel than needed? That's just throwing money away.


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## designdog (Apr 11, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> Not everyone has 50 gyutos though and oversharpening should be of concern. Why remove more steel than needed? That's just throwing money away.



They're not all gyutos.:wink:

Of course what you say makes sense. But, anyone with a shred of common sense would not have as many knives or stones as Andrey and I seem to have. And frankly, the amount of steel being removed is minimal. I have a Carter funayuki that I bought in 2008. It probably has been used more than any of my knives, more as a utility knife than anything else. As such, it has also been sharpened more  using my "system." A-and mostly with those mean old synthetic stones, since I just got into Jnats last year.

Now, I don't have a photographic memory - far from it - but that knife looks the same today as it did when I bought it. Better, as it was not very sharp on receipt, as I recall. I suppose that in twenty years it will look like a petty. A very, very sharp petty. Hopefully I will still be using it then...:bigeek:


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## Asteger (Apr 11, 2015)

If I can repeat myself from above, I was a bit freaked when I tried some synths after not touching them for about 1.5 years - the amount of metal coming off was the shocker.

On a related note, I also measured the height on one of the knives I sharpen most often (on nats) to compare it to how it was when I got it 2 years before or so, feeling guilty for sharpening it that much and fully expecting that it'd shed 2 or 3 mm. However, I was surprised and quite happy to see that it seemed almost the same, maybe with but 1 mm difference according to my tape measure. 

I agree with Theory above. However, on the other hand, it also depends on the buyer and what the knives are bought for. Of course, good knives are made to last and to be cared for, and not to be sharpened more than needed. That would be a shame, especially if you respect the knife, the maker, their role and use and so on. Most makes probably also make their knives imagining or hoping they will be used more than collected and sitting around. But if you don't use your knives heavily (you're a home cook and probably have too many of them) perhaps using them for experimentation, etc, and learning about them that way can also be fine and valid, and not a waste in other words. Even those of us who sharpen more than needed (playing with stones) probably take good care of the blades too.


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## daveb (Apr 11, 2015)

Rick - You're getting no-where on wearing out knives with this crowd. Maybe if you talked about unnecessary wear on the stones......:rofl2:


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## Asteger (Apr 11, 2015)

daveb said:


> Rick - You're getting no-where on wearing out knives with this crowd. Maybe if you talked about unnecessary wear on the stones......:rofl2:



Whoa, whoa, careful there, Dave. Now _that's_ controversial. Flattening: You have the diamond camp and the nagura camp, and you wouldn't want to be between 'em.

Luckily, you rarely have to flatten most naturals. Thank goodness.


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## Cheeks1989 (Apr 11, 2015)

Realistically how often does a home cook really need to sharpen there knives? If you are a home cook you take as much steel off as you would like


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## ThEoRy (Apr 11, 2015)

designdog said:


> And frankly, the amount of steel being removed is minimal.



Then you are not over sharpening now are you? To me, oversharpening is defined by removing more steel than necessary by say using too low a grit when not needed, staying too long one one stone when you should have moved up in grit already or just sharpening too frequently. If you are doing those things than you are oversharpening. In any of those cases more metal is being removed than required for optimal results. Be it minimal or not, it all adds up. 

As a pro user, these tools help provide my livelihood and are in constant use. Constant use requires constant care. Simply put, more sharpening. That being said the useful life of a knife for a pro greatly differs from that of a home user. I may sharpen my home knives once for every three or four times I sharpen my work knives. So while steel removal may be "minimal" in your case, multiply that by 3 or 4 and think of the long term effects after a few years. The oversharpening struggle is real. lol


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## designdog (Apr 11, 2015)

I am a pro user... In my home kitchen!


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## Dazedandkasumi (Apr 11, 2015)

:goodpost:


designdog said:


> I am a pro user... In my home kitchen!


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## Mute-on (Apr 11, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> Then you are not over sharpening now are you? To me, oversharpening is defined by removing more steel than necessary by say using too low a grit when not needed, staying too long one one stone when you should have moved up in grit already or just sharpening too frequently. If you are doing those things than you are oversharpening. In any of those cases more metal is being removed than required for optimal results. Be it minimal or not, it all adds up.



This is a very important point, very well made by Rick. Understanding how low a grit is required, and how long it should be used before moving on, is central to both effective and efficient sharpening. None of us wants to lose any more steel than absolutely necessary to keep our blades in peak performing condition.

As a recent convert to naturals, I have an awful lot to learn. Thanks to Rick, and many others here, my knives will last longer and perform better than would otherwise have been the case.

Cheers:doublethumbsup:


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## psfred (Apr 11, 2015)

As a home cook with too many knives, I sharpen the low end stainless maybe once very six months when they become irritating to use. High quality steel much less -- as in I've gotten them sharp some time back and have not felt the need to sharpen again.

Proper sharpening should not remove much steel, you should stop as soon as you have a clean apex on the edge. More is just speeding up the need to thin or adjust geometry and will reduce the life of the knife.

So will chips, another reason to take good care of your knives!

Peter


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## DDPslice (Apr 11, 2015)

For my stainless I get it nice and gritty on 1200 then haze out the finish on a jnat then polish in a naniwa. It usually keeps a couple weeks if I keep honing it on a rod.


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## Salty dog (Apr 12, 2015)

I sharpen my stainless like everything else. By feel.
I'm not getting into this except to say I'm using more stainless than Carbon these days. 

Not sure what that means but I don't care.


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## Andrey V (Apr 12, 2015)

designdog said:


> I am a pro user... In my home kitchen!



[emoji120]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;


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## Andrey V (Apr 12, 2015)

Mute-on said:


> This is a very important point, very well made by Rick. Understanding how low a grit is required, and how long it should be used before moving on, is central to both effective and efficient sharpening. None of us wants to lose any more steel than absolutely necessary to keep our blades in peak performing condition.
> 
> As a recent convert to naturals, I have an awful lot to learn. Thanks to Rick, and many others here, my knives will last longer and perform better than would otherwise have been the case.
> 
> Cheers:doublethumbsup:



The other important point is: the finer Jnats don't take much metal off. They don't wear out, at least it's minimal loss. [emoji41]. 
They reinforce the blade as well- it means they prolong the life of the knife. 
And they bring fun. That's a lot. 
Oversharpening shouldn't take place when we talk about a skilled user. To see the right moment to move to the higher grit belongs to the prized name " the skilled sharpener". 
As well as the possibility to see the point when to start sharpening. If one can't determinate the real moment when to make some strokes on finer stone( to understand the knife becomes dull) he will pay with more metal loss starting from lower grits. 
So in this case both parts are important: when to sharpen & how to sharpen.


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## Andrey V (Apr 12, 2015)

Salty dog said:


> I sharpen my stainless like everything else. By feel.
> I'm not getting into this except to say I'm using more stainless than Carbon these days.
> 
> Not sure what that means but I don't care.



It means you don't care![emoji41]. No rules. You do what's better( more convenient) for you. [emoji120]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;


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## Andrey V (Apr 12, 2015)

designdog said:


> They're not all gyutos.:wink:
> 
> Of course what you say makes sense. But, anyone with a shred of common sense would not have as many knives or stones as Andrey and I seem to have. And frankly, the amount of steel being removed is minimal. I have a Carter funayuki that I bought in 2008. It probably has been used more than any of my knives, more as a utility knife than anything else. As such, it has also been sharpened more  using my "system." A-and mostly with those mean old synthetic stones, since I just got into Jnats last year.
> 
> Now, I don't have a photographic memory - far from it - but that knife looks the same today as it did when I bought it. Better, as it was not very sharp on receipt, as I recall. I suppose that in twenty years it will look like a petty. A very, very sharp petty. Hopefully I will still be using it then...:bigeek:



Soft steel knives tend to wear out quickly. Not the harder ones. 
Same with harder Jnats. They stay flat forever. Sometimes it's a curse to flatten 'em, but as soon as the job has been done, it lasts forever. And, after all, all the great knives can be converted into same great but a bit smaller knives: into smaller Gyutos, Petties, shorter Yanagibas etc) 
That's the benefit of a great job done by a great blacksmith [emoji102][emoji102][emoji106]&#127995;


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## designdog (Apr 12, 2015)

OP here, and it was never my intention to start a SS vs carbon discussion. I know where I stand on that issue. It is simply that I have run out of Japanese knives/makers that interest me, and wanted to try a Devin, a Marco, a Pierre, etc. It seems that most of these are stainless, so I now have some SS knives. Better or worse than carbon? No idea, really. I do know (now) that they are harder to sharpen, and do sharpen as well on Jnats. Perhaps a longer lasting edge is the tradeoff. Don't know yet.

What I would really like, would be, say, a Devin ITC in the equivalent of white carbon steel! I now have two of those and they are both AEB-L. Really, really nice knives.

But when you run a Kato, for example, over those natural stones, that, gentlemen, is another dimension. Who is to blame anyone for not caring that they will have to do it sooner?:2thumbsup:


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## psfred (Apr 12, 2015)

On a purely technical note here, stainless steels containing chromium will have chromium carbides dispersed throughout the steel matrix of the blade, and this changes how they sharpen and what tools you need. 

The reason carbon steel sharpens so much more easily is that the iron carbides are tiny and evenly distributed, with the result that they are easy to abrade away (they are also softer than chromium carbides, but that isn't the point here). Not as abrasion resistant, so the edge will wear faster, but getting a nice edge is fairly easy, as noted.

When you have chromium present, depending on the steel composition and heat treat (and production methods) there are larger chromium carbide particles in the edge. These tend to be larger (AEB-L is known for the small size of the carbides, though, also "swedish razor steel" from various makers) and are harder than natural stone abrasives as a rule, and not that much softer than aluminum oxide. The result, of course, is that it takes more work to remove metal from hard stainless edges, and chromium containing alloys are notoriously "gummy" to machine -- meaning they leave persistent burrs. VERY persistent burrs, in fact.

Getting a good edge on a stainless knife make of high end steel and properly heat treated takes more work than any carbon steel of equivalent hardness, it's simply more resistant to abrasion by your stones. Once you get the hang of that, you will need to get the technique for removing burrs for that particular steel/knife/stone combination established, and then I suspect you will be quite happy. 

Try your synthetics, or a combination of synthetic and natural stones -- probably something like 1k for actual sharpening, 3-5k for polishing the edge, and then whatever combination of high grit stones and strops gives you the type of edge you want. It is entirely possible that the knife will feel "sharper" if you don't got too high on the final grit, leaving a bit of "tooth" to the edge -- unlike carbon steel knives, the abrasion resistance of the chromium carbides will keep this "toothy" edge cutting longer. 

AEB-L, H-34 (? -- I have a terrible memory) and "swedish razor steel" from various places all have small carbides and sharpen more like carbon steel than lower grade stainless with large carbides (CroMoVa's, etc). and will benefit more from high grit sharpening.

You will figure it out eventually.

Peter


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## designdog (Apr 12, 2015)

Excellent! Thank you...


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 12, 2015)

The PM steels like SRS-15 and Hap 40 have fine grain structure. I have found that they respond well to Synthetics & to Natural stones. The SRS-15 is more stain resistant than the Hap 40. Being a total carbon junkie for many years must admit that there are some really nice stainless knives being made these days not like the stainless of past years.

Even at the 215-250 price range knives like the Kagero & Ginga are bargins.


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## psfred (Apr 12, 2015)

A few of the newer stainless steels were actually developed for knives. Razor steel, obviousls was, but many of the other popular stainless steels were originally developed for things like turbine blades in jet engines. Abrasion resistance and stability at white heat were more important that sharpening characteristics or edge retention! The fact that they also make very good knives is somewhat secondary to their intended use.

Peter


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