# The infamous Masamoto KS



## AGC8 (Feb 13, 2020)

Some consider the KS to be THE JP Gyuto to own. Why? What makes (or made at one time) this THE "most sought after gyuto..."?? So many other JP Gyuto's with the same general profile, grind...

Why is it Konosuke hasn't gotten the same admiration? Marketing? Word of mouth? I think they used W#2. 

Some YouTubers said the KS fit/finish isn't what it used to be. 

And we CAN still get the KS ($498 USD at Hocho.com). 8" gyuto. Konosukes seem to sell out fairly quickly like the Masamoto KS knives (not just the gyuto).


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## ian (Feb 13, 2020)

It’s the profile that moved a thousand ships, and inspired numerous copycats. The steel seems to be generally regarded as fine, and some people complain about the grind. I’ve never had an actual KS, but I’m a big fan of KS-profiled knives. Also, generally when people here rave about the KS, it’s almost exclusively the 240mm gyuto.

At this point most of the hype is probably about people wanting to try a venerable classic that made a big impact on the knife world. You’re right that there are lots of comparable knives now for cheaper. (Again, I’ve never tried one though.)


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## Barashka (Feb 13, 2020)

The value it represents isn't really sound when compared to other knives in a similar price range. Its value is now greater than just a knife.

Over 20 years, or so, KS was ane excellent performer, great grind, great heat treat, very pretty to some eyes .. over the years it created a legacy with other smiths trying to mirror or improve on it.

It got hyped recently, and many people who bought it truly got the best knife they've ever used up to that point .. because they haven't tried much of anything else. That kept the hype train going.

Like anything vintage / with a legacy, it will command a higher price then it's pure performance would suggest. It's now a collector item. (see ahem-Shigs-ahem)

edit: I should add that there's a shortage of ks-style knives in general, there are maybe 8 lines of knives ... so for people looking for monosteel french/ks-like knife there are few choices, and so prices go up.


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## chinacats (Feb 13, 2020)

It's a pretty good $250-300 knife...if you get a decent one...


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## pgugger (Feb 13, 2020)

I wondered the same thing when I played with one in the store for a bit and was so underwhelmed. This was a few years ago when there was a lot of hype and an apparent shortage. Now that I have handled and owned other knives, I have no regrets about passing on it. I guess the hype boils down to it’s novelty when it was first introduced, as others mentioned. 

I can appreciate that some are drawn to the profile but other than that it is pretty generic and the one I held had poor fit and finish (rough handle, visible gap and step between handle and ferrule). 

Konosukes have better fit and finish. I think the HD2 is much nicer to hold, but still not a style I appreciate. Love my Konosuke Fujiyama FM - a completely different knife though.


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## Brian Weekley (Feb 13, 2020)

Got an old production 240, got a new production 240. Both are good knives if a little expensive. There are many Japanese knives eg ... Mizuno, that I like better as I like a little more belly in my gyuto’s.


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## Nagakin (Feb 13, 2020)

ian said:


> It’s the profile that moved a thousand ships, and inspired numerous copycats. The steel seems to be generally regarded as fine, and some people complain about the grind. I’ve never had an actual KS, but I’m a big fan of KS-profiled knives. Also, generally when people here rave about the KS, it’s almost exclusively the 240mm gyuto.


This. The 240mm is still close to what I consider my ideal gyuto profile, except I prefer a lower tip. Even modded my Forgecraft after it (though it's seen enough use to be considered a very tall suji at this point). 

The shape has been tweaked, and the grind has been improved upon so many times now though, the classic version is almost the worst one. Hard to compete when you're done innovating and other guys are using your shape with better steel and something like an S-grind.


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## AGC8 (Feb 13, 2020)

I heard when it came out it was a good deal for the innovative design. Iirc it was under $200.. Now it's close to $500 USD. No longer ground breaking. And versions of it from others like Konosuke to choos from if you must own this design. SimilarSspecs... Not sure how similar the dimensions and profiles are.

Buying a KS now... Serves no purpose other than to be able to say to other kitchen knife fanatics.."...I have a 240mm Massmoto Ks.."...

The Konosuke I think it's priced similarly.


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## Benuser (Feb 13, 2020)

AGC8 said:


> I heard when it came out it was a good deal for the innovative design.



What was that innovative about the design? From what I understand it's rather the traditional French profile people like.


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## AGC8 (Feb 13, 2020)

Benuser said:


> What was that innovative about the design? From what I understand it's rather the traditional French profile people like.



Shrug. Thought I heard it was the first with that profile.

A fire the Konosuke 240mm gyuto.. It uses MONO HD2 steel... Not W#2... And it's$50 more. Probably hah similar HRC.


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## Xenif (Feb 13, 2020)

AGC8 said:


> Shrug. Thought I heard it was the first with that profile.
> 
> A fire the Konosuke 240mm gyuto.. It uses MONO HD2 steel... Not W#2... And it's$50 more. Probably hah similar HRC.


Don't think Konosuke disclosed the steel they used, HD2 is just a model


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## zizirex (Feb 13, 2020)

I heard HD2 steel is very similar to Semi Stainless TKC or Bessaku steel.


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## AGC8 (Feb 13, 2020)

zizirex said:


> I heard HD2 steel is very similar to Semi Stainless TKC or Bessaku steel.


I guess I'll have to Google TKC and Bessaku steels heh...


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## AGC8 (Feb 13, 2020)

Xenif said:


> Don't think Konosuke disclosed the steel they used, HD2 is just a model


See here...

https://www.toshoknifearts.com/products/hd2-gyuto


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## Michi (Feb 13, 2020)

ian said:


> I’ve never had an actual KS, but I’m a big fan of KS-profiled knives.


The KS is thin and nimble, with a nice grind. (It can slice through a whole watermelon in a single stroke without wedging.) It's easy to sharpen, and gets very sharp. Edge retention isn't terrible, but not that great when compared to blue #2 or a PM steel. The profile is very flat, to the point where you could almost call it a tall sujihiki. (I have a preference for a bit more belly myself.)

Overall, I'd say it's a good knife, if you like the profile.


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## labor of love (Feb 13, 2020)

If there is a Japanese wa gyuto made today with worse edge retention than the Masamoto KS I haven’t found it yet.


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## AGC8 (Feb 13, 2020)

Michi said:


> The KS is thin and nimble, with a nice grind. (It can slice through a whole watermelon in a single stroke without wedging.) It's easy to sharpen, and gets very sharp. Edge retention isn't terrible, but not that great when compared to blue #2 or a PM steel. The profile is very flat, to the point where you could almost call it a tall sujihiki. (I have a preference for a bit more belly myself.)
> 
> Overall, I'd say it's a good knife, if you like the profile.


I'm with you on offeringpr a chess knife or gyuto with more belly. Where the tip is closer to the spine for better rocking. As I don't eat sushi. Or this dishes who's ingredients should be prop with a JP blade (e.g 90/10 offer Singler bevel).

There are JP knives with that bladder shape.

I don't believe in an all purpose knife.

Prefer to push cut out chop? But a nakiri, kiritsuke with a flat where k edge. Or a Chinese Cleaver.

I asked about the KS it of curiosity. Doubt if buy one. Or that Konosuke.


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## chinacats (Feb 13, 2020)

Benuser said:


> What was that innovative about the design? From what I understand it's rather the traditional French profile people like.




Exactly...


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## aszma (Feb 13, 2020)

Bought one earlier this year just to try it. Honestly it was one of those knives that had a ton of hype and i always heard great things about them sense the beginning of my japans knife journey. To be completely honest i didn't get the hype it was a cool knife but i didn't enjoy the profile much prefer toyama and takeda. I dont even understand the hype of the profile as soon as i tried it it just came off as like a french saber


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## Barmoley (Feb 13, 2020)

KS is basically french sabatier profile, but a lot of people like that profile both visually and in use. I like it to a point. I agree with @labor of love though the heat treat of wh2 on it is pretty soft, it sharpens nice and gets sharp, but retention sucks compared to other wh2 knives and that is saying something in itself. When it was ~$270, fine, but for over $400, is just nuts.


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## Nagakin (Feb 13, 2020)

Benuser said:


> What was that innovative about the design? From what I understand it's rather the traditional French profile people like.


I would assume it's actually less the profile and more the construction. Going from a full-tang, thick sab with a significant taper to a KS was probably a fairly big leap at the time. 

That combined with what Barashka said here:



Barashka said:


> many people who bought it truly got the best knife they've ever used up to that point .. because they haven't tried much of anything else.



is probably why it has the reputation it has.


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## Xenif (Feb 13, 2020)

AGC8 said:


> See here...
> 
> https://www.toshoknifearts.com/products/hd2-gyuto


So .... If the website says "Steel: Tritanium" the knife steel for this knife is Tritanium?


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## labor of love (Feb 13, 2020)

Maybe, just maybe the profile is borrowed for Sabatiers but the actual entire blade shape is pretty original. And the taper is very nice.


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## Chuckles (Feb 13, 2020)

It serves a purpose as a reference knife. The standard bearer for mid level, mid weight, middle of the road performance. You can describe knives relative to a KS and people will understand. I am a big fan of the profile. If I were to make a list of overpriced and overhyped knives the KS would not make the top five for me.


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## panda (Feb 13, 2020)

the KS is very dear to me, i love that knife til this day even though i have moved on from it.


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## chinacats (Feb 14, 2020)

The edge profile is nice...but it needs another 8-10mm in the heel to make it work well for me...


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## bahamaroot (Feb 14, 2020)

I picked my KS up in 2012. Most of its hype comes from around ten years ago when it was one of the better knives out there. It was pretty unique at the time, ran about 255mm which was popular and had GREAT distal taper. It was the knife that defined distal taper at the time. It had a very thin tip but some meat at the heel for the tougher stuff, it was an excellent knife in its heyday.
The J-knife world has just come so far since then with so many new offerings the KS has just been passed by. After it disappeared for a few years and then reemerged it was not the same knife either. The newer version is a step down in finish and performance from the older version and not worth the cost it garners today.


AGC8 said:


> Shrug. Thought I heard it was the first with that profile.
> 
> A fire the *Konosuke 240mm gyuto.. It uses MONO HD2 steel... Not W#2*... And it's$50 more. Probably hah similar HRC.


Konosuke used to make its laser in Mono W#2 and HD2. The HD2 became more popular and they discontinued the W#2 to make more HD2s. The scarcity of the HD2 for a time caused the price to spike but that spike has slowed the demand greatly.


Xenif said:


> Don't think Konosuke disclosed the steel they used, HD2 is just a model


 HD2 is a proprietary semi-stainless steel. HD2 is a minor change in the steel of the original HD steel that was sold for only a brief period, one or two years.


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## labor of love (Feb 14, 2020)

I was always impressed with the tip on the KS, it tapers down to pretty thin-but not crazy thin. Not too fragile, just thin enough to have an impact.


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## daddy yo yo (Feb 14, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> After it disappeared for a few years and then reemerged it was not the same knife either. The newer version is a step down in finish and performance from the older version and not worth the cost it garners today.


With me it was the other way around: I tried one many years ago and didn’t like it. I have a current one and for me it was a step up in finish and performance compared to the older version...

Let’s always consider that tastes and preferences change.


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## lemeneid (Feb 14, 2020)

I'd take a Fujiyama over KS any day!


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## daddy yo yo (Feb 14, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> I'd take a Fujiyama over KS any day!


I guess I am lucky that I can always choose between these two!


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## panda (Feb 14, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> I'd take a Fujiyama over KS any day!


eww


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## ma_sha1 (Feb 15, 2020)

Renewed popularity due to Burrfection rope cutting infomercial?


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## kayman67 (Feb 15, 2020)

Yeah. Something like that. But I'm not sure he's the one who ruined it. 

Sometimes I want one just to have one. I'm well aware that it brings nothing new for me, but still sometimes I would buy one, for a decent price. I already have similar knives, a bunch of old Sabatier style from France and Germany with very good steel (funny enough, some German knives won competitions with this what's considered now genuine Sabatier profile to the handle and everything, that made me question who was first), plus some Japanese ones that are very good as well (I think all of them are some semi-steinless).


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## bahamaroot (Feb 15, 2020)

I have an older KS and really just keep it around because it was one of my first high end knives and a favorite for a few years, a nostalgia kind of thing I guess. The knife is really cool but it has just hung on the wall and not used for a couple years now. Being a home cook with entirely too many knives now there are really only a few out of a few dozen that see a lot of use.


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## daveb (Feb 15, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> I'd take a Fujiyama over KS any day!



Neither is an answer.


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## CiderBear (Feb 15, 2020)

daveb said:


> Neither is an answer.



Lemme guess... Gengetsu?


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## labor of love (Feb 15, 2020)

CiderBear said:


> Lemme guess... Gengetsu?


This is the answer 

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...-ks-style-ao-hagane-dx-blue-steel-no-1.45524/


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## daveb (Feb 15, 2020)

CiderBear said:


> Lemme guess... Gengetsu?



Been playing with the new Yoshi's of late. They're not Gengetsu but I like them both.


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## DitmasPork (Feb 16, 2020)

AGC8 said:


> Some consider the KS to be THE JP Gyuto to own. Why? What makes (or made at one time) this THE "most sought after gyuto..."?? So many other JP Gyuto's with the same general profile, grind...
> 
> Why is it Konosuke hasn't gotten the same admiration? Marketing? Word of mouth? I think they used W#2.
> 
> ...



The Masamoto KS is a wonderful knife, functional, sleek, sexy as hell profile, prob one of the most influential gyuto profiles as others have mentioned. I can't speak to recent iterations of the KS, mine was bought around 2011–12, think I paid in the region of $325 for it.

For me, its distinctively 'pointy' profile, gives the knife a lot of versatility, letting it work well for a variety of tasks from heavy prep of greens to finesse work to more suji oriented tasks like sashimi.

Steel is good, sure there're better steels out there—my Tsourkan KS copy in 52100 was a step above in that department—but for a mass produced blade it holds its own. If forced to give up all my other gyutos and use a KS for the rest of my life, wouldn't make me miserable. My most recent purchase (received Thursday) is the polar opposite of KS.

When I bought it, it was my 'unicorn,' though it still is a great knife IMO—my tastes have changed to different steels, profiles, handmade knives by different makers. Since the time I've bought it, the bar has been risen, other makers producing superb knives—so whether the KS is worth the current price is very subjective. If buying today, would I pay $500 for a legendary kitchen knife? Maybe, maybe not, it's conjecture—though I wouldn't think it an ill advised purchase.


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## DitmasPork (Feb 16, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> I'd take a Fujiyama over KS any day!



What do you prefer about the Kono Fujiyama over KS? I picked up a Kono Fujiyama around the same time as my KS, prob one of the most beautifully crafted knives I've owned—but I didn't jive with it, so finally ended up selling it not too long ago.


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## NO ChoP! (Feb 16, 2020)

As heat treat was a recent topic; Masamoto vs. Ikeda would be a valid comparison. Both same steel. I have owned two KS, as I really like the profile, but that edge retention is truly horrendous. Ikeda on the other hand, I have a hard time believing it's actually shirogami.

Also, on a different note. Since you will be constantly sharpening the KS, you will be wearing it down quickly, and that particular profile is extremely nuanced and very difficult to maintain. I bet many end up with a large, clunky flat spot.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 16, 2020)

Masamoto's changed over the years. My favorite was my first that bought in 1982. 240mm Western handle. I paid 70-80 forget exact amount. A lot of money in those days. Had good distal taper. I wore that blade down to nothing over couple decades of massive amounts of cutting. Even when had other Carbon Masa's after couldn't retire found use for it. Masa's were the Japanese carbon knife available in Hawaii. Coming from Forschners they were awesome to me sharpened close to the stone to keep them thin. The most I paid for a 240mm over the years was 160.00.

Now the same knife at Cherry Japanese imports is close to 400.00. bought all my knives there until got my first computer. Korin, EBay. Early 2000's met Takeshi he was a sushi chef and was bringing in SB & DB knives from Japan This before started A Frames.


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## panda (Feb 16, 2020)

I would love to try a vintage one that is thick spined.


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## lemeneid (Feb 16, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> What do you prefer about the Kono Fujiyama over KS? I picked up a Kono Fujiyama around the same time as my KS, prob one of the most beautifully crafted knives I've owned—but I didn't jive with it, so finally ended up selling it not too long ago.


The KS just doesn’t have that wow factor my other knives gave. It’s a good knife, not a great one. I get the same feeling with the KS as I do a $100 knife. It just gets sh1t done without being spectacular.


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## DitmasPork (Feb 16, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> The KS just doesn’t have that wow factor my other knives gave. It’s a good knife, not a great one. I get the same feeling with the KS as I do a $100 knife. It just gets sh1t done without being spectacular.



These days, I'd agree that the KS is a good knife, but at its current price I can find a number of knives that I consider much better.


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## Chuckles (Feb 17, 2020)

I would counter that there are also many at the same price that are worse.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 17, 2020)

Sure a Masamoto can do the work. Knife skills and sharpening are not discussed here as much as how good or bad a knife is. The 240 can cut at speed with even cuts and a sharp edge that is easy to touch up.

Would not buy one at 400.00+
Only used mono carbons or iron clad at work. Using every day just dry well at end of shift. Let them patina only yanagiba keep shiny. 

Home use like carbon core stainless clad. At 240mm Kochi and Gengetsu are well under 400.00 excellent knives. Watanabe iron clad like too. The TF Maboroshi white #1 is over that price got a 210mm for 300.00 on BST. Nice blade with very good Edge retention. 

Think all these knives would work well in production kitchen.


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## DitmasPork (Feb 17, 2020)

panda said:


> I would love to try a vintage one that is thick spined.



When is vintage to you? What would be a thick KS spine, I've not measured mine.


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## panda (Feb 17, 2020)

i dunno, pre 2000? i would like to see one around or above 3.0mm mine was like 2.6mm

lol somehow TF always comes into the fold in any discussion here.
at current 'market prrices' for the KS, there are still only a handful of knives that i would prefer over it. the TF maboroshi is not one of them because the grind is even less impressive despite having far superior steel and an almost as good profile.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 17, 2020)

Me either. Don't have any Masa's now. My first had thicker spine at heel and got very thin at tip. Later Masa's had less distal taper.


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## Lars (Feb 17, 2020)

I do like my KS sujihiki from 2012 although I wish I had known there were a 270mm available, my 240mm is a little short.


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## panda (Feb 17, 2020)

Lars said:


> I do like my KS sujihiki from 2012 although I wish I had known there were a 270mm available, my 240mm is a little short.


i love the 270 ks suji!!


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 17, 2020)

The Masa is totally diff. Blade compared to TF Mab. Tall in the heel good for push cuts and chopping. Like both for diff. reasons.

The Kochi and Gengetsu are diff. Profiles. Both have good grinds.

I might get flack for saying this just got my Gengetsu have been using it a lot. Solid patina on exposed core edge. It feels very familiar to my favorite 1980s Masamoto. Thick in the rear and thin at the tip. Not tall in the heel and pointy tip. To me it has a superb grind and probably better edge retention than the Masa. Have not even sharpened it yet.

I wore down several several 270 Masa Sugi's


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## labor of love (Feb 17, 2020)

270mm KS suji has returned and JCK has inventory. At $420 I am considering one maybe in a few months. The lack of edge retention isn’t as much a big deal to me w sujis.


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## DitmasPork (Feb 17, 2020)

panda said:


> i dunno, pre 2000? i would like to see one around or above 3.0mm mine was like 2.6mm
> 
> lol somehow TF always comes into the fold in any discussion here.
> at current 'market prrices' for the KS, there are still only a handful of knives that i would prefer over it. the TF maboroshi is not one of them because the grind is even less impressive despite having far superior steel and an almost as good profile.



Hmmm, I'll measure my spine when I get home, mine is more recent, like 2011-ish.


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## GorillaGrunt (Feb 18, 2020)

I hated it; I’m not gonna dump all over it but it’s not the knife for me. Sexy as hell though. I heard that it used to go for about $200, which would change the perception of value considerably. The last round of KS hype, when all the clones came out, I tried almost every one of them and liked the Masamoto the least. Of course most of these were also under $300 while the KS was going for $400. The one I kept was the Shibata Kashima - the profile worked well for me in a laser. Just recently picked up a Mizuno though and that is pretty excellent. Better steel, better grind, great fit and finish, more functional — and still somehow not as sexy: I can see why looking at pictures of a KS makes people want to buy one.


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## labor of love (Feb 18, 2020)

I’m actually not to crazy about Marko anymore but I think he perfected it.


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## NO ChoP! (Feb 18, 2020)

As a person, or as a product?


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## labor of love (Feb 18, 2020)

His work. Just my own tastes.


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## jacko9 (Feb 18, 2020)

I've never owned a KS (always out of stock every time I looked for a 240) but I do have a HD2. After buying a Konosuke Fujiyama however, the HD2 sits gathering dust. The new HD2 seems to have a profile similar to the KS;

https://www.**************.com/kohdwa24.html


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## DitmasPork (Feb 18, 2020)

I really enjoyed using the KS, and still bring it out every so often for the hell of it. But for the price of a KS today, I'd likely opt to get a custom knife—for the "$498 USD at Hocho.com" mentioned on the first post, my custom costs much less, got to choose wood for handle, choose thickness of blade, profile, steel, type of grind, etc. But that's just my preference.


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## bahamaroot (Feb 18, 2020)

Hocho is higher than the other retailers I've seen. Though still high, the last batches at JCK and CKTG were only $400. You can get a 270 or 300mm at Korin for $498.


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## kayman67 (Feb 18, 2020)

There were times when this sold with 1000$ on ebay and actually Hocho was pretty cheap. They still have that price, but not many people want the knife now. It died a good death.


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## daddy yo yo (Feb 19, 2020)

I wouldn’t say the KS died and that not many want that knife. It still is a good knife. Others have caught up, but make no mistake, the KS is still a pleasure to use!


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## Runner_up (Feb 19, 2020)

Sharpened and brought my KS to work last week for a shift. Up until then I had only used it once or twice with the edge I received it with at home and wasn't blown away. I love sharpening the steel. The feedback on the stones is the best of any Jknife I have. Edge retention is meh. Profile is fantastic and it has a very good grind. I definitely get why this is one of the "classics".


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## brooksie967 (Feb 19, 2020)

I love my ks:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8xAa5enRjm/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/BwhPUDmh3JX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/BwhPHDLh3SF/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link


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## daddy yo yo (Feb 25, 2020)

It works reliably, wonderful profile, crazy sharp:


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## panda (Feb 25, 2020)

i see serrated peeler usage.


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## daddy yo yo (Feb 25, 2020)

panda said:


> i see serrated peeler usage.


As Shaggy said, „It wasn’t me“!


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## Barmoley (Feb 25, 2020)

daddy yo yo said:


> As Shaggy said, „It wasn’t me“!


I call fake picture, no patina on KS after cutting onion and garlic


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## daddy yo yo (Feb 25, 2020)

The worst smell came from the red pepper, not the onion or garlic...


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## Johnny.B.Good (Feb 25, 2020)

I have a handful of nice knives but my KS is the one I reach for on a daily basis. I think I was inspired to buy it back in 2012 by Salty, when they were probably around $300 from JCK. The YouTube videos of Salty flying through prep work with his KS serve as a fine reminder to me that knife skills and sharpening are where I need to spend my energy, not seeking the latest and greatest profile or grind from the maker of the moment here on KKF. I still love the looks of the KS line as much as anything out there (mine were re-handled by Mike Henry).


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## panda (Feb 25, 2020)

if i had to go back to ks as my main knife, i'd be perfectly ok with it.


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## Lars (Feb 25, 2020)

KCMA shaving chives was cool too.


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## Johnny.B.Good (Feb 25, 2020)

I'm sure that Salty is barely tapping the board when he cuts, but that rapid fire sound of his KS hitting the board has always inspired confidence in the toughness of my own blade.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 25, 2020)

KS hype and hate are overated in both directions, IMHO

The profile is very subtle an its easy to cut things in various different ways...but its takes skills to use it and frankly remember the best ways to cut certain things.

Also, with some ver useful flex and very subtle belly in just the right spots up front...its not flat, but it has several "flat spots" that are functional. Its edge lenght is (famously) longer than advertised, and the profile facilitates draw cutting and use of the distal taper to good effect. It will butcher meat better than many other gyuto profiles for various reasons.

Now, a ton of this isn't impressive if you don't know how to cut. If you just try to overwhelm the knife with your personal style and don't adapt, it probably never even seems very interesting. But if you learn how to use it, and fully engage with it, it simply does things other knives don't do...eg that tip with its pointy profile and edge flex...th ecuts its not happening on a konosuke or watanabe...doens't matter the price or the edge retention...its a design engineering issue not a quality or fit and finish issue.

On the downsides....It's finished with like 400 grit sandpaper or whatever. The newere ones are consistendly good but maybe aren't as great as the ones they made with more handwork before 2005 or whatever. The original smith died, so the newer ones are basically reproductions or re-issues not originals in some sense. Again, that being said, don't let stamped Kanji fool you...many KS from 2012-2015 are maybe lesser than the 2018 ones...read the archives for more info.

Lastly, the HS honyaki is probably worth 10x regular KS knife ( if you could find/ buy one)...and as salty showed, it doesn't really perform differently than Standard KS.

So for value, I don't really see the problem at all of buying a KS for $300 the tradtiional price was. Debating the price based on scalper levels, isn't really fair to Masamoto who historically (until maybe 2019?) didn't sell this knife at wholesale mark-ups. IE, Even in 2018 the street price was $325 + EMS shipping +Saya from Japane.

Its a fair value for a unique product, but its not a luxury product by KKF standards.


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## Newbflat (Feb 25, 2020)

Way back in the day I had a bad run of luck with some Masamoto KS’s. First I bought one of a forum member (not this one). He had lots of pretty pictures and it was “as new”... It came to me as a total basket case. If I put the edge on the board I could slide a dime threw the hollow ground into the edge. He tried to say i did it and I took it to the forum. It was obvious I didn’t do it and there was a communal call for him to give me my money back. He vanished and was banned from the forum. Lesson learned, beware of Canadians from Vancouver selling KS’s. Then I decided I wanted something stainless so I bought one of the Masamoto KS “Swedish” stainless ones that were kicking around. It came and it had almost zero distal taper and was bent enough along its length that if it was flat on the board there was about 1//8th inch gap to the board. So I sent it back.. At that point I gave up on Masamoto KS’s.

But!... I still have the infamous Canadian disaster KS. After grinding out the hollow and thinning it’s somewhere between a suji and a gyuto. I use it a fair bit really. The steel isn’t very hard but takes a super sharp edge lickety-split. I have ignored thinning it for years and it was showing in performance so a couple of days ago decided to give it a proper thinning but could only find my Bester 700 > Bester 1200, my other stones are at another house.. But 90 min later a broken stone put an end to the thinning. It’s 90% where I want it but that was annoying (the Bester was less than 1/4 inch thick when I started). It should preform a lot better and maybe I will finish in a month or two. Here she is... looking a bit unfinished which it is. But brought back from the dead and very functional. Fresh off a generic Jnat in the 7-9000 range and super sharp and aggressive just waiting for dinner.


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## DitmasPork (Feb 25, 2020)

panda said:


> i dunno, pre 2000? i would like to see one around or above 3.0mm mine was like 2.6mm
> 
> lol somehow TF always comes into the fold in any discussion here.
> at current 'market prrices' for the KS, there are still only a handful of knives that i would prefer over it. the TF maboroshi is not one of them because the grind is even less impressive despite having far superior steel and an almost as good profile.



I don't have calipers, but are newer KS gyutos much thinner than mine bought about 6–8 years ago?


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## Michi (Feb 25, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> I don't have calipers, but are newer KS gyutos much thinner than mine bought about 6–8 years ago?


I just measured mine (from the 2019 batch). It's 2.8 mm above the heel, 2.4 mm halfway down the blade, and 0.95 mm 1 cm from the tip.


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## bkultra (Feb 25, 2020)

HRC_64 said:


> Lastly, the HS honyaki is probably worth 10x regular KS knife ( if you could find/ buy one)...and as salty showed, it doesn't really perform differently than Standard KS.



Been offered far more than 10x and still haven't sold my honyaki. I would argue that my HS does outperform my KS (since sold). The KS weakest point was edge retention and the HS definitely improves on that... And in many other areas IMO.


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## Newbflat (Feb 25, 2020)

“I just measured mine (from the 2019 batch). It's 2.8 mm above the heel, 2.4 mm halfway down the blade, and 0.95 mm 1 cm from the tip“

Those numbers are almost exactly what mine from 2007? measures out to.


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## dafox (Feb 25, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> I have an older KS and really just keep it around because it was one of my first high end knives and a favorite for a few years, a nostalgia kind of thing I guess. The knife is really cool but it has just hung on the wall and not used for a couple years now. Being a home cook with entirely too many knives now there are really only a few out of a few dozen that see a lot of use.


Which ones are the few that get used?


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## panda (Feb 25, 2020)

ditmas, i believe they are ground much thinner than older batches. i dont really consider them the same knife really cause they were made by different people.

i will say that my mizuno ks clone is many times better than original ks (except for profile)


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## bahamaroot (Feb 25, 2020)

dafox said:


> Which ones are the few that get used?


Konosuke B#2 Fuji FM, Mazaki and a Kurosaki R2 see the most use.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 26, 2020)

bkultra said:


> Been offered far more than 10x and still haven't sold my honyaki. I would argue that my HS does outperform my KS (since sold). The KS weakest point was edge retention and the HS definitely improves on that... And in many other areas IMO.



The unspoke point is that all of the "design flaws" of the KS apply to the Honyaki. Even the ****** handle, the too flat convexity, the emoto, the heel height, the lentgh, the general weight...etc... None of that changes from one to the other at even 10 or 20x the price. Salty's vlog review basically said that KS=95% if the knife/performance for 1/3 of the cost (in 2010 era). 

His video is on you tube, I would just sugget people view it and make up their own minds. I tend to conclude Salty is reliable if one want's an objective view on th knife performance but YMMV. Hes a pro and has good copies of the knives to test. And he's not trying to sell anybody anything, etc. This isn't a point about the quaity/value of the HS so much, its just to sanity check people who think one is amazing and the other is "trash".


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## bkultra (Feb 26, 2020)

I'm a fan of both the KS and HS, so not sure I agree about the "design flaws", but that's subjective.

My HS is taller than my KS was, just over 50mm. The cost increase has more to do with rarity than pure performance. Take an Ashi honyaki and give it one of the most iconic profiles, win.

I've been in this game a long time and have owned many of the most desired knives. I've been trying to find a knife I prefer more and haven't in over 15 years.


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## brooksie967 (Feb 26, 2020)

HRC_64 said:


> The unspoke point is that all of the "design flaws" of the KS apply to the Honyaki. Even the ****** handle, the too flat convexity, the emoto, the heel height, the lentgh, the general weight...etc... None of that changes from one to the other at even 10 or 20x the price. Salty's vlog review basically said that KS=95% if the knife/performance for 1/3 of the cost (in 2010 era).
> 
> His video is on you tube, I would just sugget people view it and make up their own minds. I tend to conclude Salty is reliable if one want's an objective view on th knife performance but YMMV. Hes a pro and has good copies of the knives to test. And he's not trying to sell anybody anything, etc. This isn't a point about the quaity/value of the HS so much, its just to sanity check people who think one is amazing and the other is "trash".



When you find a honyaki i'll dispose of it for you.


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## timos (Feb 26, 2020)

my POV is strictly from a maker and not so much a user. I cant speak to the edge retention or ergonomics. What I thought was so cool about the ONE knife i was able to study and measure was the symmetry. Im good with calipers...been reverse engineering used samples in the conveyor industry for many years and I gotta say , this Masamoto KS was remarkably uniform and tapered so uniformly, both in thickness from spine to tip but also from thickness behind the edge to tip, and on top of that the bevels (spine to edge) were not a straight taper but seemed to curve just a little, it gave me pause. I really wondered how such geometry was created, what machines were used , the process, etc. 
If there were hundreds and even thousands produced to these standards well, its quite a feat no matter how you look at it. Whoever was behind the manufacture is/was a master at what they do. Now for the profile/history of design I seem to have read somewhere it was a reinterpretation of the ever popular Sabateir. It seemed for awhile there ..like 2014-2015 the hot custom knife was a KS profile with a little bit more height at the heel.


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## brooksie967 (Feb 26, 2020)

timos said:


> my POV is strictly from a maker and not so much a user. I cant speak to the edge retention or ergonomics. What I thought was so cool about the ONE knife i was able to study and measure was the symmetry. Im good with calipers...been reverse engineering used samples in the conveyor industry for many years and I gotta say , this Masamoto KS was remarkably uniform and tapered so uniformly, both in thickness from spine to tip but also from thickness behind the edge to tip, and on top of that the bevels (spine to edge) were not a straight taper but seemed to curve just a little, it gave me pause. I really wondered how such geometry was created, what machines were used , the process, etc.
> If there were hundreds and even thousands produced to these standards well, its quite a feat no matter how you look at it. Whoever was behind the manufacture is/was a master at what they do. Now for the profile/history of design I seem to have read somewhere it was a reinterpretation of the ever popular Sabateir. It seemed for awhile there ..like 2014-2015 the hot custom knife was a KS profile with a little bit more height at the heel.



Based on the appearance of the honyaki (clearly made by ashi) and by steel in the mono being the same as ashi white 2.... i'm gonna say ashi. Best of the best !


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## HRC_64 (Feb 26, 2020)

brooksie967 said:


> Based on the appearance of the honyaki (clearly made by ashi) and by steel in the mono being the same as ashi white 2.... i'm gonna say ashi. Best of the best !



Did the KS smith not die, or was he re-incarnated as Ashi?


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## brooksie967 (Feb 27, 2020)

HRC_64 said:


> Did the KS smith not die, or was he re-incarnated as Ashi?


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JTHDbnAZSYs/TKzQg_vxPII/AAAAAAAABhs/xv48JBXSmyg/s1600/IMG_1252.JPG

Tell me that's not ashi.


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## panda (Feb 27, 2020)

brooksie967 said:


> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JTHDbnAZSYs/TKzQg_vxPII/AAAAAAAABhs/xv48JBXSmyg/s1600/IMG_1252.JPG
> 
> Tell me that's not ashi.


Not gonna lie, this gave me knife boner.


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## brooksie967 (Feb 27, 2020)

panda said:


> Not gonna lie, this gave me knife boner.


It's really quite perfect!


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## brooksie967 (Feb 27, 2020)

HRC_64 said:


> Did the KS smith not die, or was he re-incarnated as Ashi?



Would love to know who made them.


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## lemeneid (Feb 28, 2020)

Just take an ashi honyaki, grind it and reprofile it till it have a KS shape. Not that difficult , you’ve save the extra X10 markup trying to buy a Masamoto.


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