# Who is the greatest Japanese blacksmith of our time still producing knives.



## Henry

In my quest to learn about Japanese knives, I have a question that will be controversial. However it could open up some discourse on what are good examples of Japanese blacksmithing. So here goes, "Which Japanese blacksmith still producing knives today will be considered the greatest of our time." To be more specific here is the criteria:

1. Must be producing knives as of 2020
2. Japanese
3. Must be based on their history not their potential (that could be for another tread)
4. Minimum 30 plus years of experience
5. Only judge their work on the blade itself and not the fit and finish on the handle
6. Limit comments to why a blacksmith is great and not why there are not.
7. Use only their best line of knives to speak to their skills. For example TF use Denkas where he has the most input into the creation of his blade.

I would like to see what people's short list are to learn and have a little fun. My apologies in advance to exclude non-japanese blacksmith. Perhaps we could do that for another thread region by region or world all-time tread. You can nominate more than one.


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## Corradobrit1

Is this a trick question? TFTFTF


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## Henry

Corradobrit1 said:


> Is this a trick question? TFTFTF



In my very limited experience, I would agree. 

But, there are so many knives I have not had the opportunity to own and use. I wanted to listen and learn from others more experienced and informed than I.


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## Codered

Corradobrit1 said:


> Is this a trick question? TFTFTF


You should have a look at poor adam92 thread and knife before putting TF in top 10. He got a knife with at least 2 overgrinds worse than moritaka and as bent and crooked as a snake. How does that recommend TF for top 10?


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## Corradobrit1

Codered said:


> You should have a look at poor adam92 thread and knife before putting TF in top 10. He got a knife with at least 2 overgrinds worse than moritaka and as bent and crooked as a snake. How does that recommend TF for top 10?


Not my experience of at least 5 TF blades. And things have improved a LOT in that dept recently.


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## khashy

Simplest question to answer ever.

It’s a tie between Hiroshi Ashi and Kiyoshi Kato.

The end.


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## M1k3

Naokibot Toyomanabe.


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## TRPV4

Genkai Masakuni? or is he retired now


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## vMinh Nguyen

i'd say genkai masakuni as well.


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## da_mich*

TRPV4 said:


> Genkai Masakuni? or is he retired now



I think he is still in business. He´s 80+ ! Siraki Kenichi is retired and Ikeda Tasuo Died 2015. I like Yoshikazu Ikeda knives very much.


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## Chuckles

My initial response to the thread title was to chuckle and immediately think Murray Carter. 

I really don’t know enough to have a strong opinion but I am hopeful that the thread stays informative and doesn’t turn into another debate about TF overgrinds.


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## Moooza

Tsukasa Hinoura, Heiji, Shigefusa. But the best overall smith is Konobu in my opinion (makes chisels and other tools).

Iwasaki isn't currently producing knives, but is alive and is the true master in my opinion.


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## osakajoe

Trick question. If you’re only judging on the blade itself and only the blade smith, none of you have seen the work. You would only be looking at a forged blank not a finished blade. 

You are looking at a few different craftsman for your finished knife. I don’t know how many times I state this on these forums when it comes to Japanese hand made kitchen knives.


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## panda

heiji


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## Corradobrit1

osakajoe said:


> Trick question. If you’re only judging on the blade itself and only the blade smith, none of you have seen the work. You would only be looking at a forged blank not a finished blade.
> 
> You are looking at a few different craftsman for your finished knife. I don’t know how many times I state this on these forums when it comes to Japanese hand made kitchen knives.


Not sure that is true for Kiyoshi Kato. I think he's a one-man operation. Probably applies to Hiroshi Ashi too, at least for the Honyaki


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## thebradleycrew

I think there are a few amazing ones, all mentioned above. Highly subjective topic, for sure. Kato, Ashi, Toyama would be my top three, but I've never owned a Genkai Masakuni, and I'm one of the few who don't really like the Shigefusa knives, believing that my aforementioned three are all better 'smiths for my tastes (fit and finish aside).

Also, agree that many/most makers are multi-person operations now.

Edit: I think TF should be on here too, though it is well documented that his knives vary between superlative performance and poor QC.


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## Keith Sinclair

This is like which wine is best. No answer it's what you like. 

Same with knives some here have more experience with many Japanese smiths. In my limited experience like Kochi and Watanabe. Nothing wrong with grind on my TF. 

As Osakajoe mentioned many knives are finished by several people.


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## Chuckles

My real wish would be for a comprehensive guide to who the forger and sharpener are for the different brands by region. I have favorite Japanese knives but no idea who made them.


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## Luftmensch

osakajoe said:


> Trick question. If you’re only judging on the blade itself and only the blade smith, none of you have seen the work. You would only be looking at a forged blank not a finished blade.
> 
> You are looking at a few different craftsman for your finished knife. I don’t know how many times I state this on these forums when it comes to Japanese hand made kitchen knives.





Corradobrit1 said:


> Not sure that is true for Kiyoshi Kato. I think he's a one-man operation. Probably applies to Hiroshi Ashi too, at least for the Honyaki



Like them or hate them... Isn't it the same for Shigefusa? All in the family.... From bar stock to finished knives?


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## ashy2classy

Keith Sinclair said:


> This is like which wine is best. No answer it's what you like.
> 
> Same with knives some here have more experience with many Japanese smiths. In my limited experience like Kochi and Watanabe. Nothing wrong with grind on my TF.
> 
> As Osakajoe mentioned many knives are finished by several people.



So Wakui and Toyama? ;o)


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## danemonji

The answer is...whoever you like it to be.
It is a very subjective question and to be honest one which I have asked myself many times. But the real answer to this question you will not find by asking this question here. There is too much ego and sometimes money at stake, for getting an honest answer. It's like asking who was the best athlete of all time  and expect to get an honest answer when all nations are trying to promote their own.
What historians typically do is check facts. Read articles, read reviews and there are plenty of them even here on this forum and other forums. Just search for yourself and you will see testimonals by people who actually used the knives. Japanese have magazines about knife makers and google translate can be useful to read through them. Make a short list of smiths and then try the knives for yourself. You can catch and release and make your own opinion. Bst will help you do this with a minimum investment on your part. I did all this and I know my own shortlist but will not make any nominations as I don' want to start the usual rants and hateful replies.


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## refcast

Depends on the audience's definition of 'greatest'. As a catch-all for other things, okay. . . but in terms of pure blacksmith work, only the a person who sharpens heat treated blanks would be somewhat positioned to answer that. . . those kind of first-hand people. Like greatest in heat treat? Greatest in forging to shape? 'Greatest' -- that only means stuff to the people deciding it. But heat treat is a conglomerate of properties. Plus, there's all sorts of qualifications to the criteria, 'blacksmith -- does forging, heat treat, and sharpening? Or only forging and heat treat? The quest is controversial because it's a bit misleading or ambivalent in 'greatest', 'blacksmith', and 'knife'. A knife does need great sharpener to actually function as a knife. . . and the knife has to be forged such that sharpening is made as viable as possible. If this was worded something of the sort, 'japanese knife craftsmen that produce outstanding product', it would be more productive, and importantly, less misleading to people who latch on to the term 'greatest' . . . though it does have it's use when used with more precision.


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## Codered

Why don't we ask the japanese this question? I mean they should know their best smiths. The top in japan might be very different from we westerners know.


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## XooMG

I believe the greatest knifesmith was kidnapped by the Chinese and is now making Dalstrong knives.


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## Barmoley

danemonji said:


> The answer is...whoever you like it to be.
> It is a very subjective question and to be honest one which I have asked myself many times. But the real answer to this question you will not find by asking this question here. There is too much ego and sometimes money at stake, for getting an honest answer. It's like asking who was the best athlete of all time  and expect to get an honest answer when all nations are trying to promote their own.
> What historians typically do is check facts. Read articles, read reviews and there are plenty of them even here on this forum and other forums. Just search for yourself and you will see testimonals by people who actually used the knives. Japanese have magazines about knife makers and google translate can be useful to read through them. Make a short list of smiths and then try the knives for yourself. You can catch and release and make your own opinion. Bst will help you do this with a minimum investment on your part. I did all this and I know my own shortlist but will not make any nominations as I don' want to start the usual rants and hateful replies.


I don't think ego and honesty has anything to do with it. It's not like we all know and just don't tell people because we don't want to loose money on our investment. It is a silly question that can't be answered. For one, like @osakajoe and other people familiar with the industry keep telling us, we don't really know who exactly does what, it is a group effort. For another, the knife is not just a forging, we never see the forging and can't judge the quality of the forging. We see a knife, even so who is to say which knife is the best. It is not even that different knives are best for different people, it is that different knives are best for the same person over time since tastes and skills change as well as the jobs that the knife is used for change.


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## lemeneid

Probably Tanaka Sr. for me. Great forger of all steels, carbon and stainless.
Close second would be Hinoura Sr. too.

TF, Kato, Toyama, etc are all great too but only within a narrow spectrum.


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## Henry

I think those who have criticized my thread are correct. I agree. My goal was to gain a little insight into vast pool of experience in this community. I am not looking for a definitive answer but to learn about great Japanese blacksmiths of our time and perhaps why. I am sure there are many new to this forum who could benefit from the experience and even the disagreements of its members. It is like debates about who was the greatest basketball player of our time. Yes it is somewhat subjective and depends on a lot of things but the same 8-10 names seems to pop up. There are far less Japanese blacksmiths then are NBA players so I was hoping to find out who the shortlisted blacksmiths are. Also it is a lot of fun engaging is this kind of discourse, at least for me. Already in the first hours of this post I have learned a lot. 

How about limiting comments to uplifting your blacksmith and not dragging blacksmiths names through the mud to prove your point. I will try to add that your the criteria if I can still make edits. Also most blacksmiths do not perform the entire process of the creation of the blade so perhaps I will add the high end of their knives that they have the most creative control over. The knives they would want to stand for their life's work For example for TF, it would be his Denkas.

By the way, danemonji, I would love to see your short list. Mine would be in not any particular order, TF, Shigafusa, and Hinoura and lately I am starting to think perhaps Takeda (yes I know there is a lot of haters for Takeda san but his AS are amazing blades especially for food separation).


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## Henry

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not my experience of at least 5 TF blades. And things have improved a LOT in that dept recently.


I can also add my experience with 5 Denkas to be phenomenal.


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## zizirex

Blacksmith and final products of the knife are a bit shady since not all blacksmith did the grinding. TF also not (always?) who forge the knife, but his apprentice is good. Same as Saji, Anryu, Shiraki, Hinoura etc. Shigefusa for example, the Blacksmith is not the best (Compare to Hinoura or Kato) but how they finish the knife (that time-consuming grind using Sen and the natural stone finish) what makes it stands out.


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## Panamapeet

Just my opinion: single bevels: genkai masakuni (although he only forges and does not sharpen afaik), double bevels: kato.


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## Kristoffer

What an interesting thread! I had no idea Mazaki made all these knives. Watanabe and Toyama and Wakui, sure, but Shig and Hinoura and TF too?


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## ynot1985

I know a guy called Lee Masakuni


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## Gregmega

While I agree mostly with Khashy’s sentiment- I gotta say Tsukasa Hinoura is number one. Finishes are off the charts perfect, he’s probably the most dramatic as innovation goes (his science inclusion testing et al)and his knives have that ‘je ne c’est quoi’ that very few makers have, not to mention his treatment of white is only rivaled by Maz.


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## lemeneid

ynot1985 said:


> I know a guy called Lee Masakuni


I see what you did there


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## M1k3

Kippington. Fish hook grind.


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## bahamaroot

The same smiths you see talked about here everyday of the week. And some of the best apprentices, grinders/sharpeners are what give most of these smiths their great names and don't get enough credit.


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## osakajoe

bahamaroot said:


> The same smiths you see talked about here everyday of the week. And some of the best apprentices, grinders/sharpeners are what give most of these smiths their great names and don't get enough credit.



Two BIG thumbs up for this!


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## brooksie967

Ashi


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## Corradobrit1

brooksie967 said:


> Ashi


well duh


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## Henry

bahamaroot said:


> The same smiths you see talked about here everyday of the week. And some of the best apprentices, grinders/sharpeners are what give most of these smiths their great names and don't get enough credit.



I agree. Many hands go into the creation of most of these amazing blades. 

However, cultures that have been dominated by confucian values don't see individuals as we do in the West. They see themselves as part of their master's work. Their work as an an apprentice is not their own as we would see. It is the result of the teaching and the opportunity given to them by their master. Thus the work belongs to their master. Praise for their master is the same as praise for themselves as there is no clear line of the individual in these cultures. Some psychologist from these cultures have gone as far to say that the individual as we know it in the west do not exist psychologically in these confucian cultures. Rather, individuals gain their identity through their relationships with others. Often those relationship are not equal in the present sense but balance out overall in their lifetime. Thus, it is expected the apprentice do not take individual credit for their work. Their work belongs to their master and their master's work belong to them; Though, not in an equal manner. The balance comes when the apprentice finally becomes the master. So when we speak of the work of Japanese master, it includes the work of their apprentices. I would make the case that the apprentices in Japanese would agree.


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## Midsummer

Henry said:


> I agree. Many hands go into the creation of most of these amazing blades.
> 
> However, cultures that have been dominated by confucian values don't see individuals as we do in the West. They see themselves as part of their master's work. Their work as an an apprentice is not their own as we would see. It is the result of the teaching and the opportunity given to them by their master. Thus the work belongs to their master. Praise for their master is the same as praise for themselves as there is no clear line of the individual in these cultures. Some psychologist from these cultures have gone as far to say that the individual as we know it in the west do not exist psychologically in these confucian cultures. Rather, individuals gain their identity through their relationships with others. Often those relationship are not equal in the present sense but balance out overall in their lifetime. Thus, it is expected the apprentice do not take individual credit for their work. Their work belongs to their master and their master's work belong to them; Though, not in an equal manner. The balance comes when the apprentice finally becomes the master. So when we speak of the work of Japanese master, it includes the work of their apprentices. I would make the case that the apprentices in Japanese would agree.



I enjoyed that. We should ask @osakajoe since he is an apprentice in a Japanese shop. Maybe the new generation has been westernized in their concept of the individual, or perhaps the working culture has maintained much of its former characteristics. I would be most interested in hearing his opinion (if he would be so kind).

I was taught to see work in the way you described Henry. I was taught the work was the Masters. That does not disallow me from appreciating my contribution to the whole.


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## Henry

Midsummer said:


> I was taught to see work in the way you described Henry. I was taught the work was the Masters. That does not disallow me from appreciating my contribution to the whole.



Well said.


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## Brontes

I think in your naivete you are lumping Japanese knife making into one culture, when in fact the knife making culture is different from one region to the next. In some regions, work is done in house in as you say a Master/apprentice relationship. In other regions, Sakai being the most common example, there are Master Smiths, Master Grinder/Sharpeners, even Master Handle makers(I may have made that last one up. Many people have tried to convey to you, that you do not essentially see the work of the smith. In the case of those wonderful knives from Sakai: Konosuke, Doi, Shirakai, Ikeda, etc, what you see, is the work and craftsmanship of the Master Grinder/sharpener. It is these individuals that are largely unsung even on the page of KKF.


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## Henry

I am naive because I don't know as much. Perhaps in retrospect I should have asked the question something like, "What line of knives could be shortlisted as a great blade?" Perhaps it is not the individual blacksmith but the blade his name is on which includes all the hands that has contributed to its greatness but not acknowledged.


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## osakajoe

Brontes said it best. 

I am not commenting on an apprentice. An apprentice is an apprentice under his teacher. 

But when most people name a Japanese blade smith they do not realize that the finish product includes other master class individuals. They will their forged their blanks and send them out to grinders, because they are masters at forging not grinding. 

Plus romanticizing Japanese everyday life in Confucius and other religious ways is a bit over the top. The themes are there just people don’t dwell on it and think that way. It’s just been instilled into the culture over hundreds of years. 

Working is more of a Kohei/Sempai/Teacher relationship most of the time. But I’m different as I come from the outside and am given leeway on certain things like knowing a specific formal word.


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## bahamaroot

Most of the grinders/sharpeners were not apprentices of or taught by the smith yet it is the smith that is considered the master. He enjoys the name recognition when the grinders have as much to do with the knife's performance/success as the smith.

I see smiths like Takeda and Yu Kurosaki traveling the world like rock stars when they have only a fraction to do with the knives sold under their names.


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## Corradobrit1

No one has mentioned Jiro


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## Henry

osakajoe said:


> Brontes said it best.
> 
> I am not commenting on an apprentice. An apprentice is an apprentice under his teacher.
> 
> But when most people name a Japanese blade smith they do not realize that the finish product includes other master class individuals. They will their forged their blanks and send them out to grinders, because they are masters at forging not grinding.
> 
> Plus romanticizing Japanese everyday life in Confucius and other religious ways is a bit over the top. The themes are there just people don’t dwell on it and think that way. It’s just been instilled into the culture over hundreds of years.
> 
> Working is more of a Kohei/Sempai/Teacher relationship most of the time. But I’m different as I come from the outside and am given leeway on certain things like knowing a specific formal word.




I can appreciate what you are saying however, I do not think I romanticize Confucian values in everyday life in Japan. In fact if anything it the opposite. I was born into a into a Confucian culture and lived it my whole life with one foot and in and the other foot out. Most of my life I have criticized and attempted to escape the problems I saw in Confucian values, though at the time I did not know it was Confucian. I am not an expert, however I have studied it modestly and teach it to a small degree. And from what I have learned, those people who live in these cultures and study it as their profession would say it has a great impact on the everyday daily life. There are hundred if not thousand of peer reviewed articles from the people who live in these cultures that would attest to this. I have not read them all but in the dozen or so I have read (each cited scores of other works) along with a handful of books, my impressions were that there really is no debate if Confucianism plays a significant role is the daily of of people who live in these cultures. As this is no longer a religion and has little to no institutional presence, most people may not be aware how much they are influenced by these values or even recognize what it is. It is embedded in their language and in how they see the world. People may not dwell on these themes and think about it but it does effect how they see the world. In the same way people in the West do not think about how humanistic values shaped in classical Greece and rediscovered during the Renaissance in their everyday lives. However, they would see the world differently today without these influences. Though I do not profess to have the esoteric knowledge of the culture of blacksmithing in Japan, I believe that all aspects of everyday life in Japan to some degree (if not a alot) is impacted by Confucianism... I will stop this at this point as this is probably another tread on another forum. I respect your opinion and we can agree to disagree when it comes to this point. I do respect your thoughts as clearly you have more knowledge and experience in the knife world than I. My attempt in this tread was to learn.


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## J.C

bahamaroot said:


> I see smiths like Takeda and Yu Kurosaki traveling the world like rock stars when they have only a fraction to do with the knives sold under their names.



so do you expect Gordon Ramsay to cook and serve the food himself when you visit his restaurant?
I don’t think that’s how it works bro.
In fact that they own (large percentage of) the business, they have the right to claim the fame.
Same goes with restaurant business, we all (sous,cdp,commis,line,cook) fight hard everyday but only the executive chef or owner gets the recognition, they didn’t even cook.


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## bahamaroot

J.C said:


> so do you expect Gordon Ramsay to cook and serve the food himself when you visit his restaurant?
> I don’t think that’s how it works bro.
> In fact that they own (large percentage of) the business, they have the right to claim the fame.
> Same goes with restaurant business, we all (sous,cdp,commis,line,cook) fight hard everyday but only the executive chef or owner gets the recognition, they didn’t even cook.


Which is exactly what makes the question of this thread moot.


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## Badgertooth

Corradobrit1 said:


> No one has mentioned Jiro



Jiro Dreams of Making Regular Sized Handles


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## bahamaroot

Badgertooth said:


> Jiro Dreams of Making Regular Sized Handles


Jiro dreams of making a knife worth $800


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## LucasFur

I think the best forger would be the one that delivers the best Heat treat. 
Some steps that i know nothing about .... 
1. Forgeing - not over heating blade / forging out the impurities / not allowing over oxidation at the high heats 
2. normalize - doing a good job of this 
3. Cold forge properly 
4. quench - doing this to a level that produces a high edge retention 
5. Temper - making sure that it retains its sturucture 
-- probably a whole list more that makes the knife steel perform a certain way. 

so somebody that does the most with the steel to give it sharpen ability/ edge holding / toughness is a GOOD FORGER. Grinder is something else. 

I would say Yoshikazu Tanaka - Heat treats to what i would prefer for carbon steels. ... didn't know he did many stainless ... Lemeneid? 
and TF ... yea still a big fan. 

Ashi HT's in such a way that gives more toughness than i really need for almost all of his stuff. 



lemeneid said:


> Probably Tanaka Sr. for me. Great forger of all steels, carbon and stainless.
> Close second would be Hinoura Sr. too.



I had a Kato with a **** HT once ... not saying any of yours will ... also not sure if ya'll use them enough to know if your HT is on point. 
But Y.Tanaka might have better Quality control on the HT. -- And i think Takeda just has everything pre-set rather then doing it "by-eye" ... but i have no idea. 



Panamapeet said:


> double bevels: kato.


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## Chuckles

> Kato with a **** HT



+1


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## lemeneid

LucasFur said:


> I think the best forger would be the one that delivers the best Heat treat.
> Some steps that i know nothing about ....
> 1. Forgeing - not over heating blade / forging out the impurities / not allowing over oxidation at the high heats
> 2. normalize - doing a good job of this
> 3. Cold forge properly
> 4. quench - doing this to a level that produces a high edge retention
> 5. Temper - making sure that it retains its sturucture
> -- probably a whole list more that makes the knife steel perform a certain way.
> 
> so somebody that does the most with the steel to give it sharpen ability/ edge holding / toughness is a GOOD FORGER. Grinder is something else.
> 
> I would say Yoshikazu Tanaka - Heat treats to what i would prefer for carbon steels. ... didn't know he did many stainless ... Lemeneid?
> and TF ... yea still a big fan.
> 
> Ashi HT's in such a way that gives more toughness than i really need for almost all of his stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a Kato with a **** HT once ... not saying any of yours will ... also not sure if ya'll use them enough to know if your HT is on point.
> But Y.Tanaka might have better Quality control on the HT. -- And i think Takeda just has everything pre-set rather then doing it "by-eye" ... but i have no idea.


I've heard different things from different people. My Kato has really nice HT, but I've heard of others with really chippy blades, similarly, everyone says Toyanabe has one of the best HT for Blue#2 but mine is chippy as hell.

As far as TF goes, they really have it spot on for the steels they use. Nice and sharp, easy to sharpen, good edge retention and really stable edges that are stupidly thin and don't chip.


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## herrdoktor1034

Ichiro Hattori, of Cowry-x steel.


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## Codered

Stop misleading people with this Teruyasu Fujiwara fan club thread. You have no problems with your TF knives because you hand picked them from Japan and out of many. Some of you bought the Morihei versions which are again selected and resharpened to be decent. But you know very well that he is not making knives that you can order from vendors and expect to get the good stuff. Here is the testimonal of someone who bought the TF advertisement here on KKF. Try to tell him that TF is the greatest japanese smith alive.

"My knife shown many problem, i tried to ask the famous local Sharpener in New Zealand but even toishigram told me he was unable to fix it.

I've been sending email & website contact him but still didn't get any reply yet, if i didn't get satisfy answer i won't purchase any TF in my life anymore, I receive the knife less than a month & using less than 10 time, I look after every knife i got, only use warm water to clean, not suppose to bent like this fast, i own yoshihiro, jck carbonext, takamura R2 for several years but didn't happen anything like this. Only yoshihiro have grinding unbalance problem.

I'm so frustrated right now.."


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## Codered

The best smith in japan is Tsukasa Hinoura. Every knife you buy from him is perfect. You can pick one blindfolded and it will be flawless. He has the perfect heat treatment, the perfect fit and finish with premium handles and the best looking knives. He does not mass produce and he puts soul in every knife he makes. His son Mutsumi will follow him in the trade as he is already a very good smith.


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## Midsummer

Mutsumi makes a fine knife.


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## wind88

Codered said:


> Stop misleading people with this Teruyasu Fujiwara fan club thread. You have no problems with your TF knives because you hand picked them from Japan and out of many. Some of you bought the Morihei versions which are again selected and resharpened to be decent. But you know very well that he is not making knives that you can order from vendors and expect to get the good stuff. Here is the testimonal of someone who bought the TF advertisement here on KKF. Try to tell him that TF is the greatest japanese smith alive.
> 
> "My knife shown many problem, i tried to ask the famous local Sharpener in New Zealand but even toishigram told me he was unable to fix it.
> 
> I've been sending email & website contact him but still didn't get any reply yet, if i didn't get satisfy answer i won't purchase any TF in my life anymore, I receive the knife less than a month & using less than 10 time, I look after every knife i got, only use warm water to clean, not suppose to bent like this fast, i own yoshihiro, jck carbonext, takamura R2 for several years but didn't happen anything like this. Only yoshihiro have grinding unbalance problem.
> 
> I'm so frustrated right now.."



I certainly didn’t hand pick any of mine and have no issues. However, the only one that I have from a vendor is less ideal than all the ones ordered direct.


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## Corradobrit1

Codered said:


> You have no problems with your TF knives because you hand picked them from Japan and out of many.


Not exactly true to be fair. He had a choice of one Yo handled 240 which was unfinished. There was no cherry picking the best version.


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## Corradobrit1

wind88 said:


> I certainly didn’t hand pick any of mine and have no issues. However, the only one that I have from a vendor is less ideal than all the ones ordered direct.


Likewise. All my direct ordered TF's (now 6 after I received the 165 Nakiri) have been exemplary in the areas that matter most to me. Only one I returned was a Morihei 210 I got from a 3rd party vendor.


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## Jville

Henry said:


> I think those who have criticized my thread are correct. I agree. My goal was to gain a little insight into vast pool of experience in this community. I am not looking for a definitive answer but to learn about great Japanese blacksmiths of our time and perhaps why. I am sure there are many new to this forum who could benefit from the experience and even the disagreements of its members. It is like debates about who was the greatest basketball player of our time. Yes it is somewhat subjective and depends on a lot of things but the same 8-10 names seems to pop up. There are far less Japanese blacksmiths then are NBA players so I was hoping to find out who the shortlisted blacksmiths are. Also it is a lot of fun engaging is this kind of discourse, at least for me. Already in the first hours of this post I have learned a lot.
> 
> How about limiting comments to uplifting your blacksmith and not dragging blacksmiths names through the mud to prove your point. I will try to add that your the criteria if I can still make edits. Also most blacksmiths do not perform the entire process of the creation of the blade so perhaps I will add the high end of their knives that they have the most creative control over. The knives they would want to stand for their life's work For example for TF, it would be his Denkas.
> 
> By the way, danemonji, I would love to see your short list. Mine would be in not any particular order, TF, Shigafusa, and Hinoura and lately I am starting to think perhaps Takeda (yes I know there is a lot of haters for Takeda san but his AS are amazing blades especially for food separation).



There is no debate over the greatest NBA player, of course it's Michael Jordan.


----------



## F-Flash

I know Munetoshi has amazing heat treatment of white steel, can someone compare Munetoshi and TF?


----------



## Codered

I only say this. Deep down you know TF has a big failure rate. To be honest I wouldn't have the courage to recomend fellow KKF members to buy his knives unless they ask for pictures of the blade road or check the knives in person. But if you keep advertising without telling people the risks, a lot will come to hate you for misleading them. I wouldn't have this courage.


----------



## labor of love

Jville said:


> There is no debate over the greatest NBA player, of course it's Michael Jordan.


----------



## Corradobrit1

F-Flash said:


> I know Munetoshi has amazing heat treatment of white steel, can someone compare Munetoshi and TF?


Apples and oranges. Munetoshi uses W#2


----------



## Garner Harrison

Shouldn't consistency play into who is the best? Because lately Ive read a lot of complaints about TF.


----------



## Panamapeet

It’s funny how everyone thinks ‘the best knifemaker’ is some objective, measurable qualification. Aren’t we all just giving our opinion based on our own experiences?


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Jville said:


> There is no debate over the greatest NBA player, of course it's Michael Jordan.



“Pistol” Pete Maravich.

but maybe a better question would be who are, rather than who is. Because that list is easier to compile and see the names that keep coming up, rather than debating who should be at the top of it.

Ok, I’ll stop sucking the fun — Love my one TF and never had problems with it, will probably buy a Kato in the next month or so, then will wonder if I should have gotten a Tsukasa with the money, and casting my vote for Honjyoji 2nd of Tou.


----------



## labor of love

Pistol Pete and Shaq are my second a third faves of all time.


----------



## Gregmega

J.C said:


> so do you expect Gordon Ramsay to cook and serve the food himself when you visit his restaurant?
> I don’t think that’s how it works bro.
> In fact that they own (large percentage of) the business, they have the right to claim the fame.
> Same goes with restaurant business, we all (sous,cdp,commis,line,cook) fight hard everyday but only the executive chef or owner gets the recognition, they didn’t even cook.



Funny story I heard from Grant when he put his first special on at the Laundry- Thomas told him ‘so you know I’ll get all the credit for this, right?’


----------



## Gregmega

Badgertooth said:


> Jiro Dreams of Making Regular Sized Handles


----------



## Xenif

Jville said:


> There is no debate over the greatest NBA player, of course it's Michael Jordan.


John Stockton


----------



## Garm

Codered said:


> I only say this. Deep down you know TF has a big failure rate. To be honest I wouldn't have the courage to recomend fellow KKF members to buy his knives unless they ask for pictures of the blade road or check the knives in person. But if you keep advertising without telling people the risks, a lot will come to hate you for misleading them. I wouldn't have this courage.


The risks of buying a TF knife have been repeated ad nauseum on this and other forums for years.
Sometimes absolutely legitimate risks, sometimes just nitpicking reaching near ridiculous levels without perhaps understanding what these knives are about and what features and characteristics make them cut the way they do. Want a perfectly even bladeroad with the exact same thickness at every point at a given distance from the edge with superb f & f? DON'T buy a TF! You'll be disappointed.
The aspects that make them unique in the way they perform, like them or not, have also been thoroughly discussed in countless threads.
I can't think of another maker where the pros and cons/potential risks have been documented to such an extensive degree, making an informed decision, whichever way you choose to go, easier to reach than with most other brands IMO.


----------



## Chuckles

> I am hopeful that the thread stays informative and doesn’t turn into another debate about TF overgrinds.



Oh well, another lost opportunity. Disappointing.


----------



## LucasFur

Overgrinds are not TF "the man's" issue.
It's "the brands" issue. He still does the forge/HT part amazingly for what I like.

How long ago did you get it? I thought TF recently had a change in the management of the grind department and qc got better.... could be wrong.

I still like y.tanaka 
Just received a hinoura yesterday ... so I'll need to try 2 more and sharpen them all before I can weigh in if he's up there.


----------



## ian

Edit: chuckles beat me to it. +1 to chuckles above.


----------



## J.C

Codered said:


> I only say this. Deep down you know TF has a big failure rate. To be honest I wouldn't have the courage to recomend fellow KKF members to buy his knives


Have you tried one yourself before you make the judgement?
Some might have obtained lemons but it doesn’t mean TF are **** knife.
I only have one TF but it did outperform 80% of other knives that i had and its only a maboroshi


----------



## lemeneid

Codered said:


> Stop misleading people with this Teruyasu Fujiwara fan club thread. You have no problems with your TF knives because you hand picked them from Japan and out of many. Some of you bought the Morihei versions which are again selected and resharpened to be decent. But you know very well that he is not making knives that you can order from vendors and expect to get the good stuff. Here is the testimonal of someone who bought the TF advertisement here on KKF. Try to tell him that TF is the greatest japanese smith alive.
> 
> "My knife shown many problem, i tried to ask the famous local Sharpener in New Zealand but even toishigram told me he was unable to fix it.
> 
> I've been sending email & website contact him but still didn't get any reply yet, if i didn't get satisfy answer i won't purchase any TF in my life anymore, I receive the knife less than a month & using less than 10 time, I look after every knife i got, only use warm water to clean, not suppose to bent like this fast, i own yoshihiro, jck carbonext, takamura R2 for several years but didn't happen anything like this. Only yoshihiro have grinding unbalance problem.
> 
> I'm so frustrated right now.."


Ok, you need to stop being a troll and stop believing the words of a knifemaker with a vendetta against TF and Takeda. From what I've seen and read, there is nothing wrong with that knife, apart from the owner's lack of sharpening skills. 

And to cherry pick ONE knife without knowing the facts is no more misleading that what I have stated thus far.

And for your information, that one Denka I did pick out personally, which was the last piece in the inventory they had, since you're so interested and read through my posts on TF, let me tell you about the other two TFs I had. I personally bought them both blind. One was a 240 Maboroshi which I got off BST and was a cheap deal, but the knife had been worked on extensively before coming to me. The other was a 150 Denka Petty/Gyuto which was a private transaction in at a price way more than 50% off retail that I only saw ONE picture of which I swear is the ugliest knife I have ever seen with the worst F&F ever, you can ask Lord TF, Inzite or the others I've showed pictures about them. But what the are; the best performing knives in my inventory.

Sure, they all have overgrinds, all machine ground knives have. I've got Mazakis, Kamo, Kurosakis, Tanakas, all with overgrinds, and all just as bad if not worse than TF. BTW, ever heard of concave grinds? They're a thing too, so just because your bevels do not contact the stone, doesn't make it a bad knife at all too. I do know a pretty well-regarded western maker here who does his knives concave, does that make him sh1t? No, because everyone loves him, but just because TF makes his knives like that with the bad F&F and suddenly he's all bad.

How about before coming to a conclusion, try out a TF, doesn't have to be a perfect blade, it will nevertheless be a very unique cutter for sure.


----------



## ian

lemeneid said:


> From what I've seen and read, there is nothing wrong with that knife, apart from the owner's lack of sharpening skills.



If by sharpening skills, you mean the ability to straighten a blade and correct overgrinds, I agree.


----------



## lemeneid

ian said:


> If by sharpening skills, you mean the ability to straighten a blade and correct overgrinds, I agree.


Bent knife I agree, but if you’re having a laugh if you’re saying you can correct overgrinds by sharpening at 30 degree angles as his “expert” tells him to


----------



## Codered

lemeneid said:


> Ok, you need to stop being a troll and stop believing the words of a knifemaker with a vendetta against TF and Takeda. From what I've seen and read, there is nothing wrong with that knife, apart from the owner's lack of sharpening skills.
> 
> And to cherry pick ONE knife without knowing the facts is no more misleading that what I have stated thus far.
> 
> And for your information, that one Denka I did pick out personally, which was the last piece in the inventory they had, since you're so interested and read through my posts on TF, let me tell you about the other two TFs I had. I personally bought them both blind. One was a 240 Maboroshi which I got off BST and was a cheap deal, but the knife had been worked on extensively before coming to me. The other was a 150 Denka Petty/Gyuto which was a private transaction in at a price way more than 50% off retail that I only saw ONE picture of which I swear is the ugliest knife I have ever seen with the worst F&F ever, you can ask Lord TF, Inzite or the others I've showed pictures about them. But what the are; the best performing knives in my inventory.
> 
> Sure, they all have overgrinds, all machine ground knives have. I've got Mazakis, Kamo, Kurosakis, Tanakas, all with overgrinds, and all just as bad if not worse than TF. BTW, ever heard of concave grinds? They're a thing too, so just because your bevels do not contact the stone, doesn't make it a bad knife at all too. I do know a pretty well-regarded western maker here who does his knives concave, does that make him sh1t? No, because everyone loves him, but just because TF makes his knives like that with the bad F&F and suddenly he's all bad.
> 
> How about before coming to a conclusion, try out a TF, doesn't have to be a perfect blade, it will nevertheless be a very unique cutter for sure.


How am I being a trol? I didn't say he is all bad. Only that he is not among the best because:
1. He does not make all knives himself but also his apprentice( prerequisite of the OP selection criteria was to make the knives solo)
2. He has serious grid and F&F issues as you also state above
3. He does not replace obviously damaged goods.
Sure he has one of the best heat treats and aogami super is very hard to forge at 66 Rockwell with stainless clad. For this reason I wanted to buy a 240 Denka in 2018. And maybe I will one day. But knowing the risks and making sure that i get a good piece. If this guy was not so cheap on quality control and would hire a good sharpener he would be in top 3.


----------



## Iggy

I'd go with TF (yes, visited him 2 times already in Tokyo... yes, the variance in their knives are huge and F&F isn't his priority... but the Denka HT and cutting performance is simply the best I got from Japan ever) 

That's only me...


----------



## ian

lemeneid said:


> Bent knife I agree, but if you’re having a laugh if you’re saying you can correct overgrinds by sharpening at 30 degree angles as his “expert” tells him to



I can’t find the post you’re referring to with the 30 degrees, but if memory serves the person was suggesting to run the edge over the stone at a 30 degree angle to test if there *was* an overgrind vs a bent edge. That is, you’d just test for contact with the edge. You’re not trying to fix anything.

I’m sorry, @Chuckles, that I’m contributing to the TF discussion after all. I just don’t think it’s fair to fault Adam in this thread for not being able to straighten his new TF, or fix overgrinds.


----------



## Codered

I will repost my thoughts from couple of days ago because I find it evil to blame Adam for getting a defect knife from TF and laugh at him for trying to understand what was going on and how to fix it. The comments above just prove my point:
"Funny thing is Moritaka although they had a very good heat treat on their aogami super were completely disqualified by the KKF community for their over grind issues. But TF is highly praised although facing the same issues if not worse. I guess if influential members invest in one smith, everything can be overlooked and guys like Adam here can pay the price for this hyped publicity."


----------



## labor of love

What is TF’s track record like with returning and exchanging knives? I’m pulling the trigger on something from him very soon here.

My understanding is that at the of purchase you can leave a comment about what your specifically after and he gets back with you with photos of the inventory. This increases my buying confidence.


----------



## wind88

Codered said:


> I will repost my thoughts from couple of days ago because I find it evil to blame Adam for getting a defect knife from TF and laugh at him for trying to understand what was going on and how to fix it. The comments above just prove my point:
> "Funny thing is Moritaka although they had a very good heat treat on their aogami super were completely disqualified by the KKF community for their over grind issues. But TF is highly praised although facing the same issues if not worse. I guess if influential members invest in one smith, everything can be overlooked and guys like Adam here can pay the price for this hyped publicity."



caveat emptor


----------



## ian

labor of love said:


> My understanding is that at the of purchase you can leave a comment about what your specifically after and he gets back with you with photos of the inventory. This increases my buying confidence.



It’s funny, this isn’t something that reassures me that much. I can’t personally identify from pictures any of the problems people discuss. Maybe if they send you lots of pictures of different parts of the edge placed on a flat surface, and holding it up against a ruler on the sides or something, but glamour shots only let me know what the profile and f&f look like. And even those things I have a hard time assessing without holding the knife.


----------



## F-Flash

Might be stores storing that caused the rust, but who posts pictures like this for the products you try to sell..

Or maybe it came from the TF like that


----------



## labor of love

TBH I think you might be right @ian. I’m more concerned about finding one with the right thinness and symmetry. 
Fingers crossed that I don’t have to attempt an exchange.


----------



## ian

I guess people like kurouchi because it protects the knife against rust, keeping the knife looking as close to OOTB as possible for a long time. 

Easier solution: just make the knife covered in rust in box!



F-Flash said:


> Might be stores storing that caused the rust, but who posts pictures like this for the products you try to sell..
> 
> Or maybe it came from the TF like that


----------



## labor of love

F-Flash said:


> Might be stores storing that caused the rust, but who posts pictures like this for the products you try to sell..
> 
> Or maybe it came from the TF like that


Well if it’s an accurate representation of the inventory I applaud them for being honest and up front about it. As long as there’s no bending or warping of the blade or “holes in the edge” I would pull the trigger and improve the blade road.


----------



## labor of love

F-Flash said:


> I know Munetoshi has amazing heat treatment of white steel, can someone compare Munetoshi and TF?


Munetoshi heat treat is really really good. It definitely stands out from the majority of shirogami I’ve sharpened. Never tried the Honyaki though. 
Plenty of high hardness stuff out there, hell the Heiji carbon I have arriving soon costs $200 less than TF Mab and I like it more.


----------



## Henry

I am a little embarrassed to say this but when I purchased my 5 Denkas, I did not even know what a "grind" was never less an over grind. What I do know is that all 5 Denkas will overall outperformed every knife I had ever used including my Shig, my colleague's Shig, my RiverJump, Takeda, Zero, Koishi, and Keguara. I am so inexperienced to this culture that I do not even notice the the fit and finish. Prior to starting this thread I believed TF to be the greatest blacksmith of our time. From the feedback I have received and my own reading of other treads, the question was perhaps ill conceived and the answer is a lot more complex than what I originally thought. I am slowly learning that like all things worth knowing, the more you know, the more you know how much you don't know.


----------



## CiderBear

Chuckles said:


> My initial response to the thread title was to chuckle and immediately think Murray Carter.
> 
> I really don’t know enough to have a strong opinion but I am hopeful that the thread stays informative and doesn’t turn into another debate about TF overgrinds.



Andddddd it didn't last long


----------



## bahamaroot

Jville said:


> There is no debate over the greatest NBA player, of course it's Michael Jordan.


Tell that to LeBron James...



labor of love said:


> View attachment 69144


Bird is the greatest "white boy" NBA player ever.


----------



## Jville

bahamaroot said:


> Tell that to LeBron James...
> 
> Bird is the greatest "white boy" NBA player ever.



LeBron already knows.


----------



## Jville

Until Luka gets done.


----------



## Garner Harrison

Mazaki, cause its the only blacksmith that I own the blade of worth mentioning


----------



## labor of love

Jville said:


> LeBron already knows.





bahamaroot said:


> Tell that to LeBron James...
> 
> Bird is the greatest "white boy" NBA player ever.



He is not the greatest


----------



## Jville

X


----------



## Ryzie

I think the group that Hitohira uses including Kikuchiyo, Togashi, and Y. Tanaka are pretty close to the top, two of their names are monickers but I would throw them in the ring 100%


----------



## Ryzie

Brontes said:


> I think in your naivete you are lumping Japanese knife making into one culture, when in fact the knife making culture is different from one region to the next. In some regions, work is done in house in as you say a Master/apprentice relationship. In other regions, Sakai being the most common example, there are Master Smiths, Master Grinder/Sharpeners, even Master Handle makers(I may have made that last one up. Many people have tried to convey to you, that you do not essentially see the work of the smith. In the case of those wonderful knives from Sakai: Konosuke, Doi, Shirakai, Ikeda, etc, what you see, is the work and craftsmanship of the Master Grinder/sharpener. It is these individuals that are largely unsung even on the page of KKF.


Yea the Sakai smiths who do only the blade are amazing, Shiraki Hamono, Tanaka are two of my favs


----------



## Ruso

What I gathers so far is that LeBron san is the greatest Japanse smith, only super-seeded by Jordan Hamono but the latter ceased the operations - so he out of the running.
Intresting!


----------



## Jville

labor of love said:


> View attachment 69144





Xenif said:


> Larry Bird definitely one of my favs of all time, but definitely not better than Mike. Greatest white boy, idk maybe. You weren't serious about that Shaq comment, right?
> John Stockton also one my favs, but please not even in the conversation. Again, definitely one of the greats, but not the greatest.


----------



## labor of love

Why am I being necro bumped @Jville ?


----------



## panda

black mamba, my goat


----------



## Jville

labor of love said:


> Why am I being necro bumped @Jville ?


Sorry, I missed it the first time. I couldn't let that slide.


----------



## zizirex

Jordan Hamono > Bryant Hamono > James Hamono


----------



## Carl Kotte

panda said:


> black mamba, my goat


That’s what she said! (Not bad huh?)


----------



## labor of love

She said Shaq


----------



## Carl Kotte

labor of love said:


> She said Shaq


 Man this is hard. I think I’ll give up now.


----------



## panda




----------



## labor of love

Carl Kotte said:


> Man this is hard. I think I’ll give up now.


Just kidding. For my Swedish friends that aren’t in the know Pete Maravich was the greatest ever.


----------



## M1k3

Carl Kotte said:


> Man this is hard. I think I’ll give up now.


That's what she said!


----------



## inferno

greatest = Mino Tsuchida


----------



## M1k3

Larry Bird-san.


----------



## jacko9

Well based on a sample size of two I have to say Kiyoshi Kato. I've own and tried T-F, Shig, Toyama,Kagekiyo, Watanabe, Kono Fujiyama, Mazaki but I still come back to my Kato!


----------



## panda

Ken Griffey jr


----------



## M1k3

panda said:


> Ken Griffey jr


Bo Jackson


----------



## BillHanna

Drew Brees


----------



## panda

Sean Taylor would have been GOAT


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Rocky Marciano


----------



## sododgy

GOAT


----------



## ModRQC

Jordan would have been the greatest had he stayed true all along... Something in that lame baseball episode, coming back into buckets of millions, and a different number on his jersey just rings off when trying to compare seriously to even lesser professionals that still kept to their righteous place in this world.

But way to derail an interesting thread with the sports talk... TF "issues" were redundant but at least close to the point at hand.

I'm real tempted to splurge on a great forging/HT again - those Hitohira Hinode by Hinoura are so readily available, and I love the profile and height - it all seems perfect. But as much as I love White steel, I don't think I can stomach spending over 400$ again for yet another great one - and oh boy is great White a great steel, I'm not downplaying it. I'm all for diversity though, and they don't have the Blue of any great maker around these parts much except Denkas and some leftover mightily expensive too Tanaka collaboration in Blue #1.

Also I never truly had a wide bevel knife - approximations of one is the best I had experience of. I hear a lot of so-so talk about them around here. Is this all food release related?


----------



## Jville

Easy, Mike - i dont have to qualify it anymore, because you all know which Mike im talking about.


----------



## DitmasPork

Naoki Mazaki. According to local folklore, he was born in a great blacksmith’s workshop, bathed in water used to quench blades, and forged his first knife at age five. Fact.


----------



## ModRQC

So that’s why he has such a temper...


----------



## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> Naoki Mazaki forged his first knife at age five. Fact.


Pfft. Kiyoshi Kato was still in the womb. Another fact.


----------



## ModRQC

So that's why his mother had intense stomach burns during pregnancy...


----------



## DitmasPork

I'm patiently waiting for the list to be deduced to a final two—when the thread comes to fisticuffs. Like trying to argue who is the GOAT of basketball—Jordan or LeBron.

In all seriousness, the 'great' Japanese blacksmiths in my collection that fit the parameters are Kato, Shig, TF, Heiji, YT—I like them each for different reasons. TBH, if my house were burning and I needed to grab just one knife to save, it would be the Kato—if only for the resale value to replace some of my burnt possessions. Also, because it's a great knife IMO.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

By far the most popular j-smith since the beginning of this forum and the forum before this (knifeforums.com/In The Kitchen subforum) is Shigefusa. Never even heard of Kato until 5 years ago.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

I might be starting up some s__t but I actually thought of this thread the other day thinking about Y. Tanaka. Argument: join this forum and within five minutes you’ll know about Shigefusa and Kato; read about Japanese blacksmiths and soon you’ll probably hear of Genkai Masakuni, so before one even seeks to acquire one of these knives he will be “primed” as psych researchers put it. But Tanaka made the Fujiyamas that a lot of people agreed were stellar performers and extremely desirable without knowing the name of the smith as far as I know until comparatively recently. And I’ve seen at least one post claiming to have knowledge that Tanaka forges some of the Kagekiyos, also widely acclaimed work without being so publicly attached to a maker’s name, and I think there’s another high-end line that is also Tanaka-forged? So if this is all true it amounts to an (albeit imperfectly) blind trial. Thoughts? Counterpoints?


----------



## ModRQC

Single thought here is that I think my Tanaka is an awesome knife, and pricepoint is ridiculous compared to most of them stellar makers mentioned here.

Counterpoint: Hinoura son does great within an even more ridiculous pricepoint, and emergence of a lot of relatively younger makers with almost cheap pricepoints compared to all above for great knives - top of my head Takamura, Masashi, Kurosaki (in the spring they still were relatively cheap, but they sure are nowhere as cheap from what I can see now - nor are they so much readily available as back then, although by no mean rare or so hard to get.) I know it's not the same right now, but isn't a single do-it-all guy like Masashi an impressive feat, and a highly possible sought-after unicorns maker 30 years from now?

I know nothing though - just buy those things and pretend is what folks will tell you.


----------



## milas555

Well, I miss a split in this interesting discussion.
Another thing is the name, creator of many projects with many people, branding knives with his name or not, whose percentage contribution to the knife (the one you hold in your hand) is difficult to define - here Y. Tanaka. The second group (or the first) are knife makers from start to finish like Kato, Jiro (I think), Shigefus (though with sons), Munetoshi (hopefully), Toyama (?) And Watanabe (this is debatable, as is TF and Takeda). But not everything is white or black - there are also many great blacksmiths and grinders / sharpeners whose names we know or will never know ....


----------



## juice

milas555 said:


> And Watanabe (this is debatable, as is TF and Takeda).


Please not this again...


----------



## DitmasPork

Codered said:


> I only say this. Deep down you know TF has a big failure rate. To be honest I wouldn't have the courage to recomend fellow KKF members to buy his knives unless they ask for pictures of the blade road or check the knives in person. But if you keep advertising without telling people the risks, a lot will come to hate you for misleading them. I wouldn't have this courage.


What is the % of TF failure and where are you getting your information? Yes, I've heard stories of wonky TF knives. But all my friends that have TF denkas got very good examples, free of major issues. My denka is as near perfect as can be. So, based on people I personally know, success rate is 100%.


----------



## Corradobrit1

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> By far the most popular j-smith since the beginning of this forum and the forum before this (knifeforums.com/In The Kitchen subforum) is Shigefusa. Never even heard of Kato until 5 years ago.


Given the recent mega price paid for 210 Wa Kitaeji, the market would agree. Kiyoshi Kato is a nobody.


----------



## DitmasPork

Corradobrit1 said:


> Given the recent mega price paid for 210 Wa Kitaeji, the market would agree. Kiyoshi Kato is a nobody.


What was the price? I missed that.


----------



## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> What was the price? I missed that.


$2100


----------



## DitmasPork

Corradobrit1 said:


> $2100 View attachment 94970


Bloody hell! For $2100 you could buy 15 Kan chef’s knives!


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Corradobrit1 said:


> Given the recent mega price paid for 210 Wa Kitaeji, the market would agree. Kiyoshi Kato is a nobody.


I didn't say he was a nobody, not even suggested that. Why is everyone so confrontational on this site?


----------



## Corradobrit1

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I didn't say he was a nobody, not even suggested that. Why is everyone so confrontational on this site?


Chill. I was being facetious. I own 3 Kato's and zero Shigs


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Corradobrit1 said:


> Chill. I was being facetious


Guess what, its the internet so I can't hear your pitch of voice or facial movements. Maybe try an emoji?


----------



## tchan001

Greatest of our times.


----------



## Ruso

tchan001 said:


> Greatest of our times.
> View attachment 94997


Which one is the right one?


----------



## Corradobrit1

Ruso said:


> Which one is the right one?


Looks like the Maz from the HK retailer


----------



## Jville

Ruso said:


> Which one is the right one?


Mazaki Damascus.


----------



## DitmasPork

Corradobrit1 said:


> Looks like the Maz from the HK retailer


Who’s the HK Maz dealer? I don’t know of them.


----------



## lemeneid

Jville said:


> Mazaki Damascus.


Mazaki has sold out. As has Kurosaki.


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## Corradobrit1

Jiro sold out before he forged a single blade under his own name.


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## Corradobrit1

DitmasPork said:


> Who’s the HK Maz dealer? I don’t know of them.







__





mazaki knives


Fwiw, whenever I hear “This knife is the best because it’s so sharp!” I think “This car is the best because it has the most gas in it!” Sharpness is an ephemeral thing that speaks of the quality of the most recent sharpening and the amount of use the knife has seen since then. It’s not an...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## M1k3

Kai-san


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## DitmasPork

Corradobrit1 said:


> Jiro sold out before he forged a single blade under his own name.



According to local folklore, Kanji for “Jiro Nakagawa,” followed by the number “1” could be clearly read on his umbilical cord. Fact.


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## tchan001

DitmasPork said:


> Who’s the HK Maz dealer? I don’t know of them.


King Tak Hong


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## Wdestate

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I didn't say he was a nobody, not even suggested that. Why is everyone so confrontational on this site?


Cus they have to defend their purchases on over priced katos hah


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## ModRQC

DitmasPork said:


> According to local folklore, Kanji for “Jiro Nakagawa,” followed by the number “1” could be clearly read on his umbilical cord. Fact.



I heard the umbilical cord sold even before he was out the wombs...


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## RockyBasel

ModRQC said:


> I heard the umbilical cord sold even before he was out the wombs...


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## RockyBasel

I got my first Shig kitaeji 2 weeks ago - looking forward to trying it and seeing what it’s all about

it was a 210, and no, not for $2100

For me, so far, it’s Toyama, Heiji, and Y Tanaka. Heiji SS is amazing and easy to use

have not tried Kato and Shig


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## DitmasPork

ModRQC said:


> I heard the umbilical cord sold even before he was out the wombs...


You failed to mention that the umbilical cord, considered almost worthless at the time, was sold for just $25. The shrewd buyer then flipped is for $1k on BST.


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## Ruso

DitmasPork said:


> You failed to mention that the umbilical cord, considered almost worthless at the time, was sold for just $25. The shrewd buyer then flipped is for $1k on BST.


Was it damascus?


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## Corradobrit1

RockyBasel said:


> I got my first Shig kitaeji 2 weeks ago - looking forward to trying it and seeing what it’s all about
> 
> it was a 210, and no, not for $2100
> 
> For me, so far, it’s Toyama, Heiji, and Y Tanaka. Heiji SS is amazing and easy to use
> 
> have not tried Kato and Shig


Wait until the TF Denka lands.


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## RockyBasel

Corradobrit1 said:


> Wait until the TF Denka lands.


Gaku is working on it this week, should have it in 10 days I think


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## MarcelNL

I now have several knives to choose from -nothing to claim base best blacksmith on- and still find myself picking up the Shig and enjoying working with it most. It's almost as if that knife has a sould the others are just knives. Think that the Hinoura is emptiest of em all. Of course sharpness and purpose is different across knives, the one coming closest to the Shig (a small 165mm Santoku) is the single bevel Suji project knife I recently got (maker unknown).
Looking forward to your experience with a Shig Rocky!


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## RockyBasel

lemeneid said:


> Mazaki has sold out. As has Kurosaki.





MarcelNL said:


> I now have several knives to choose from -nothing to claim base best blacksmith on- and still find myself picking up the Shig and enjoying working with it most. It's almost as if that knife has a sould the others are just knives. Think that the Hinoura is emptiest of em all. Of course sharpness and purpose is different across knives, the one coming closest to the Shig (a small 165mm Santoku) is the single bevel Suji project knife I recently got (maker unknown).
> Looking forward to your experience with a Shig Rocky!



Will share my experience - interesting how you use the word “soul” because some knives do have that “hard to describe” quality - I think soul is the best word. So Hinoura does not have soul - given the cult status and unicorn stature, makes me wonder why so - I am an it relieved as an expensive slipped my grasp only recently


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## Corradobrit1

TF = sanmai soul king


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## MarcelNL

Corradobrit1 said:


> TF = sanmai soul king


Wish you had not written that as it may well affect my decision what to buy ...a TF denka, a TF denka 150 anniversary or a shig...


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## RockyBasel

MarcelNL said:


> Wish you had not written that as it may well affect my decision what to buy ...a TF denka, a TF denka 150 anniversary or a shig...


Really validates Denka purchase

what is the 150 year anniversary Denka - don’t tell me I have to buy another one


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## MarcelNL

lemeneid said:


> It’s real not folklore. Am I the only one to see it when I visited them? @toddnmd ?
> 
> View attachment 95284


Story has it these are commemoratory knives forged and finished by TF himself...


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## DitmasPork

Henry said:


> In my quest to learn about Japanese knives, I have a question that will be controversial. However it could open up some discourse on what are good examples of Japanese blacksmithing. So here goes, "Which Japanese blacksmith still producing knives today will be considered the greatest of our time." To be more specific here is the criteria:
> 
> 1. Must be producing knives as of 2020
> 2. Japanese
> 3. Must be based on their history not their potential (that could be for another tread)
> 4. Minimum 30 plus years of experience
> 5. Only judge their work on the blade itself and not the fit and finish on the handle
> 6. Limit comments to why a blacksmith is great and not why there are not.
> 7. Use only their best line of knives to speak to their skills. For example TF use Denkas where he has the most input into the creation of his blade.
> 
> I would like to see what people's short list are to learn and have a little fun. My apologies in advance to exclude non-japanese blacksmith. Perhaps we could do that for another thread region by region or world all-time tread. You can nominate more than one.



After carefully reconsidering the parameters set by the OP, I admittedly am not enough of a knife nerd to know which maker has been producing for at least 30 years. ‘Greatest,’ so incredibly subjective—how to quantify ‘greatness’ is the impossible challenge. That said, these J-knives that I’ve kept, are all made by makers I consider great in their own right—each for different reasons. Although, Jiro and Mazaki are relatively young in their careers, they have produced an impressive body of work—for me, longevity isn’t a requirement nor an entitlement to greatness—there’re knife makers who have been toiling away at their craft for over 30 years, whose knives have not gone beyond the mediocre.

Left to right: Mazaki, Kochi, Heiji, Watanabe, Y. Tanaka, Shigefusa, Jiro, Kato, TF.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

DitmasPork said:


> After carefully reconsidering the parameters set by the OP, I admittedly am not enough of a knife nerd to know which maker has been producing for at least 30 years. ‘Greatest,’ so incredibly subjective—how to quantify ‘greatness’ is the impossible challenge. That said, these J-knives that I’ve kept, are all made by makers I consider great in their own right—each for different reasons. Although, Jiro and Mazaki are relatively young in their careers, they have produced an impressive body of work—for me, longevity isn’t a requirement nor an entitlement to greatness—there’re knife makers who have been toiling away at their craft for over 30 years, whose knives have not gone beyond the mediocre.
> 
> Left to right: Mazaki, Kochi, Heiji, Watanabe, Y. Tanaka, Shigefusa, Jiro, Kato, TF.
> 
> View attachment 95480


So true, such a subjective thing. Most people will give an answer for what they've owned, or want to own. Doubt anyone, including me, has at least one of every maker to remark intelligently on.


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## RockyBasel

DitmasPork said:


> After carefully reconsidering the parameters set by the OP, I admittedly am not enough of a knife nerd to know which maker has been producing for at least 30 years. ‘Greatest,’ so incredibly subjective—how to quantify ‘greatness’ is the impossible challenge. That said, these J-knives that I’ve kept, are all made by makers I consider great in their own right—each for different reasons. Although, Jiro and Mazaki are relatively young in their careers, they have produced an impressive body of work—for me, longevity isn’t a requirement nor an entitlement to greatness—there’re knife makers who have been toiling away at their craft for over 30 years, whose knives have not gone beyond the mediocre.
> 
> Left to right: Mazaki, Kochi, Heiji, Watanabe, Y. Tanaka, Shigefusa, Jiro, Kato, TF.
> 
> View attachment 95480



Quite a collection there - presume it’s yours. Agree with your assessment completely - you basically have my list - with the exception of Kochi - not familiar with Kochi and I don’t know who forged those knives


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## DitmasPork

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> So true, such a subjective thing. Most people will give an answer for what they've owned, or want to own. Doubt anyone, including me, has at least one of every maker to remark intelligently on.



Yeah, agree. A big part of the subjectivity depends on whatever strata of collecting one is in. For example, in my kitchen I've never owned or used a honyaki, or any knife that's over $1k in price—my opinions and observations purely limited to what I've used in the kitchen.


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## DitmasPork

RockyBasel said:


> Quite a collection there - presume it’s yours. Agree with your assessment completely - you basically have my list - with the exception of Kochi - not familiar with Kochi and I don’t know who forged those knives



Kochi is one of the undisputed 'great,' bang-for-buck gyutos! Some have said that they're made in the same workshop as Wakui, but to the specs from Jon Broida at JKI—but, that's hearsay, I don't know for a fact. For performance, Kochi is a great knife, punching way above it's weight in the performance category. It's both rustic and utilitarian, lacks the aesthetic artistry of Jiro et al, but a great cutter, well balanced, the kind of no frills performer happy to use often.


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## RockyBasel

DitmasPork said:


> Kochi is one of the undisputed 'great,' bang-for-buck gyutos! Some have said that they're made in the same workshop as Wakui, but to the specs from Jon Broida at JKI—but, that's hearsay, I don't know for a fact. For performance, Kochi is a great knife, punching way above it's weight in the performance category. It's both rustic and utilitarian, lacks the aesthetic artistry of Jiro et al, but a great cutter, well balanced, the kind of no frills performer happy to use often.



is it comparable to a Munetoshi?


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## Niseko17

I really enjoy following this (older) discussion, even discussing basketball... as a German I would suggest Dirk Nowitzki ofc ;-))))

But my q was rather concerning the "greatest blacksmith"... I am pretty new to the topic of jknives, however I have heard a lot about _Itsuo Doi_ and even more so about _Keijiro Doi_ (father). Don't they belong on this candidate short list?

What about Yamamoto Hideaki?


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## GorillaGrunt

I’ve heard a lot of praise for the Doi family, mostly in single bevels though which isn’t really my arena.

I may be entirely wrong or have several people confused with each other — but I didn’t think Hideaki Yamamoto was a blacksmith, I thought he is a master sharpener and has a line of knives bearing his name but he is not the one forging the steel. More authoritative info would be appreciated here.


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## KO88

Niseko17 said:


> I really enjoy following this (older) discussion, even discussing basketball... as a German I would suggest Dirk Nowitzki ofc ;-))))
> 
> But my q was rather concerning the "greatest blacksmith"... I am pretty new to the topic of jknives, however I have heard a lot about _Itsuo Doi_ and even more so about _Keijiro Doi_ (father). Don't they belong on this candidate short list?
> 
> What about Yamamoto Hideaki?



What about Detlef Schrempf? (still love Dirk!  )


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## WhiteNoiseRadio

LucasFur said:


> Overgrinds are not TF "the man's" issue.
> It's "the brands" issue. He still does the forge/HT part amazingly for what I like.
> 
> How long ago did you get it? I thought TF recently had a change in the management of the grind department and qc got better.... could be wrong.
> 
> I still like y.tanaka
> Just received a hinoura yesterday ... so I'll need to try 2 more and sharpen them all before I can weigh in if he's up there.



Just picked up a Y. Tanaka B2 Damascus 240 Gyuto. Just learning it’s shape, but I’m in love with the balance. Had Sugi work out a custom handle, solid cocobolo-no contrasting ferrule—with a copper spacer. Love every bit of it from the moment I picked it up. Super curious which Hinoura you have (River Jump is my unicorn list), but please update. Super curious.


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## Jason183

+1 Yoshikazu Tanaka, probably not the greatest of our time as I haven’t try many unicorn knives yet. But it’s the greatest among my current working knife collections, only try 2 of his white#1 gyuto/Sujihiki so far, both are keepers, never thought about selling them, I have another Blue #1(heard he has one of the best Blue 1 heat treatment)Gyuto on the way, so exciting.


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## LucasFur

WhiteNoiseRadio said:


> Just picked up a Y. Tanaka B2 Damascus 240 Gyuto. Just learning it’s shape, but I’m in love with the balance. Had Sugi work out a custom handle, solid cocobolo-no contrasting ferrule—with a copper spacer. Love every bit of it from the moment I picked it up. Super curious which Hinoura you have (River Jump is my unicorn list), but please update. Super curious.


Well the Hinoura i got was one of the white 2 KU blades. OOTB the wide bevel was somewhat shallow, but i find that even with Morihiro Grinds. I abused it for a week or so, took it to the stones, and opened that wide bevel up, took it down to a zero bevel on the edge, and did a single side micro-bevel. -- its a beast now. its the full package, Super impressed with Hinoura, esp if you like wide bevels. The HT on the white 2 is the best ive experienced, honestly its the most "Blue steel," - white steel ive used. - and actually has a better HT than some Blue 2's ive owned. - Its defiantly a workhorse keeper for me, and $$ value. Tanakas are super great, mine are a very different blades than the hinoura i have (tanaka's are all much thinner, not to say the hinoura is thick, just more workhorse/ all rounder type) ---- Buy hinoura with confidence bud. I've been hurtin every time one comes on BST, I'd really buy more, (esp that one thats available now, from Burrfection, i know with some tuning it'll be an amazing piece - I wish i had good enough friends i could buy it for (that can take the carbon))


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## tcmx3

ask 10 people and get 10 different answers.

this whole conversation relies on 1. your criteria for what makes the "greatest" and 2. how well you're even able to evaluate

Im going to be honest there are very few people on this forum equipped to say anything about this subject as framed (no, I dont consider myself one of them) because you would need to have seen and done serious work with/to a high number of blades from each smith. When I hear someone with one or two examples theyve never even properly sharpened say "this is objectively good" I have to laugh a bit. Ok, you like it, Im down with that, but you think that in any way is equivalent?

Let's ask the professional sharpeners their opinion, and for the collector's let's stick to "who's your favorite?"


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## LucasFur

tcmx3 said:


> When I hear someone with one or two examples theyve never even properly sharpened say "this is objectively good" I have to laugh a bit. Ok, you like it, Im down with that, but you think that in any way is equivalent?


Agree completely, and even those sharpeners have different opinions on what is "good."
Truth is that even professional chefs, who sharpen away a blade every 7 years wont know whats good, as even the makers performance changes over time. 
All we can rely on is general consensus. 
And really, once you have a few good knives, you learn what they are capable of, your knife skills improve, and it doesn't matter. 

It can be related to car guys. They have all their sports cars, and its impossible for them to know what is the best maker, without driving all the cars long term, and the cars change, and there are so many items that can be "The best" -- and even if you own them all, you can't drive them all enough. --- And at the end of the day no matter how many Ferrari's/ Lambo's you have, your going to own a couple "civilian" cars that are what you really use daily. So is Ferrari the best, or is Toyota the best? Or, do you just like cars, and need an excuse to buy another?


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## inferno

LucasFur said:


> And really, once you have a few good knives, you learn what they are capable of, your knife skills improve, and it doesn't matter.



xactly.


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## inferno

To be honest. i buy my blades based on looks and somewhat smith reputation and steel.

since i can alter the "grind" however i want. i can alter the profile. and i almost always swap the handle anyway to diy.
then does it really matter how good the smith is? no not really. all really high performing steels today need an electric furnace anyway since they need a certain soak time at a very precise temp so its not like they HT stuff "manually" anyway. they might forge it though.

my favs are hinoura (the cheap one) and kurosaki. does it get "better"? probably. do i really care? not really.


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## tcmx3

inferno said:


> To be honest. i buy my blades based on looks and somewhat smith reputation and steel.
> 
> since i can alter the "grind" however i want. i can alter the profile. and i almost always swap the handle anyway to diy.
> then does it really matter how good the smith is? no not really. all really high performing steels today need an electric furnace anyway since they need a certain soak time at a very precise temp so its not like they HT stuff "manually" anyway. they might forge it though.
> 
> my favs are hinoura (the cheap one) and kurosaki. does it get "better"? probably. do i really care? not really.



the cheap one is cheap because he's the son, when Mutsumi takes over I'm sure the prices will rise.

at least IME his stuff is really good, and Ive said as much in a few threads. better overall balance than the ultra hard stuff people seem obsessed with, IMO.

but yeah pretty much all the big names do it at a level where you get a good knife if you can really properly sharpen.


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