# Cracked Sukenari honyaki



## miccro (Jun 1, 2015)

Had the knife for about 6 months, normal everyday use on boneless meats and veg. Polished off the patina on it yesterday and noticed a hairline in the steel both sides surrounding the hamon- exactly around the hamon where the heat treatment would have been. The line is unbroken and not uniform to polishing marks. Im pretty sure its a fail in heat treatment. would this occur after 6 months of use or just have been hidden by polish initially. 

Its sad really because the knife is a stunning performer, by far my favourite even amongst my Carter and shigefusa. 

ive tried to show it up in some photos but exceedingly hard to capture. 

ill contact Chefknives to go and see about having it replaced i guess. 

anyone come across similar? any advise? 

















mike


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## Kippington (Jun 1, 2015)

LOL I spent a while looking for a crack in the red circle.
Its really hard to see anything, can you outline the crack on one of the pics?


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## miccro (Jun 1, 2015)

Kippington said:


> LOL I spent a while looking for a crack in the red circle.
> Its really hard to see anything, can you outline the crack on one of the pics?



sorry- here it is outlined in red to compare with the other photos,

im sure its there, its just what to do about it..

the red circle is the camera lens so ignore..


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## Kippington (Jun 1, 2015)

miccro said:


> the red circle is the camera lens so ignore..


I figured that out eventually but it took me longer then I care to admit... 

Yes I would try to get it replaced if I were you. Its a pretty big crack and any kind of sudden shock will cause it to grow further along the path of least resistance. The outcome won't be pleasant...


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 1, 2015)

I have the same knife (240 but from JCK), what did you use to polish yours? I'll clean mine up and see if I have anything similar. I have a rehandle in the works so would rather find out if there are issues before it goes on.


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## aaamax (Jun 1, 2015)

Bizarr. Have never seen anything quite like that. Ouch.
If that is on both sides then indeed you have a crack and no that is not from use.
Good luck.


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## CompE (Jun 1, 2015)

Keep us posted on the response you get from that place. I suspect that you will be pointed to their return policy, which states that you have 30 days to return unused products. You will likely have better luck trying to contact the maker.


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## chinacats (Jun 1, 2015)

CompE said:


> Keep us posted on the response you get from that place. I suspect that you will be pointed to their return policy, which states that you have 30 days to return unused products. You will likely have better luck trying to contact the maker.



This. A very good reason to only purchase through trusted vendors.


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## Benuser (Jun 1, 2015)

Post about it on that salesman's own forum and see.


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## chiffonodd (Jun 1, 2015)

CompE said:


> Keep us posted on the response you get from that place. I suspect that you will be pointed to their return policy, which states that you have 30 days to return unused products. You will likely have better luck trying to contact the maker.



Wow any respectable business would take take back a defective product like that. The 30 day/unused return policy doesn't even contemplate something like this. Hard to imagine it could possibly be the result of misuse! I mean I know honyaki blades are supposed to be "more fragile" but a through and through crack??

Good luck and I agree that you should post how the vendor handles it.

(This is no pot shot at sukenari . . . Obviously mistakes happen!)


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## zitangy (Jun 1, 2015)

Had a Hiromoto Honyaki and after 3 weeks a tiny hairline crack developed. Sent it back and got a replacement by JCK . Yr hairline crack is interesting as it veers... suggesting that there is a weak line resistance inherent in the blade . Mine was abt 1cm from the edge to where it stopped... straight up.

I suppose if there is no evidence of abuse blade height is almost as original ( suggesting no big chip (due to heavy use; literally) and grinded away)).. good case of a "lemon" can be made. I do have faith that the manufacturer wld replace .

good luck.. 

rgds
d


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 1, 2015)

The amount of coin you spent on it and the fact it goes thru the knife on both sides I think they should replace it.


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## daveb (Jun 1, 2015)

Probably premature to start throwing rocks at the vendor. I'm not a fan of Togo but everything I've read lately says he is standing behind his wares. (Much more so than he did with me back in the day) By making this about him instead of about the knife we've made it awkward for the most knowledgeable people here to comment.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jun 1, 2015)

Some of the knives I've owned that were differentials hardened, had a snagging edge where the steels meet. I doubt the blade is going to self-destruct upon not all use. But, if you bought a Honyaki, your probably pretty detail oriented and that may be one detail that isn't acceptable. We understand. Mark will stand behind his wears. Please post your experience in dealing with CKTG.


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## chefcomesback (Jun 1, 2015)

Sometimes if the steel is too hot during quench it will show hairline fractures you will not notice it until it is near mirror polish , this one looks more like it happened during straightening rather than heat treatment , it may look like it could hold but it will snap off from that line one day , contact the vendor and ask for replacement I would say


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## CompE (Jun 1, 2015)

daveb said:


> Probably premature to start throwing rocks at the vendor. I'm not a fan of Togo but everything I've read lately says he is standing behind his wares. (Much more so than he did with me back in the day) By making this about him instead of about the knife we've made it awkward for the most knowledgeable people here to comment.



I didn't mean to start throwing rocks. It would be welcome news to hear if they will take the knife back or exchange it.


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## knyfeknerd (Jun 1, 2015)

CompE said:


> I didn't mean to start throwing rocks. It would be welcome news to hear if they will take the knife back or exchange it.



Yes, I hope the OP keeps us posted as to his response.


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## Dave Martell (Jun 1, 2015)

OP, if you don't get a good response from the vendortogo just point him here and it'll all be right as rain.


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## miccro (Jun 1, 2015)

thanks guys, emails sent, ill let you know the outcome,

mike


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## miccro (Jun 1, 2015)

tjangula said:


> I have the same knife (240 but from JCK), what did you use to polish yours? I'll clean mine up and see if I have anything similar. I have a rehandle in the works so would rather find out if there are issues before it goes on.



i used mud from my wet stones and polishing cloth


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## James (Jun 1, 2015)

I can see how something like that got through QC; the issue wasn't easy to spot even when you took closeups for us.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 1, 2015)

One thing I recall about the factory polish is that it leaves a lot of uniformly spaced lines if viewed at the right angle so perhaps it blended in


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## miccro (Jun 2, 2015)

Heard from CKTG - they have been in contact with Sukenari who said they will replace the knife. i will be sending the knife back through CKTG to Sukenari, ill let you know the outcome and hopefully when i have new knife in hand.

cheers,

mike


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 2, 2015)

So far so good. It's nice to know Sukenari stands behind their product. QC slips can happen, it's in how they're dealt with IMO that matters


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 3, 2015)

miccro said:


> Heard from CKTG - they have been in contact with Sukenari who said they will replace the knife. i will be sending the knife back through CKTG to Sukenari, ill let you know the outcome and hopefully when i have new knife in hand.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> mike



That sounds good mike


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## CompE (Jun 4, 2015)

This is welcome news to hear about CKTG's customer service, and I am glad that it looks like things will work out for you.

However, I don't want to heap too much praise on CKTG for exceeding low expectations. Ultimately, the vendor sold a defective product and they need to make it right with the customer. The fact that CKTG contacted Sukenari doesn't concern you and you shouldn't need to wait until CKTG has worked something out with Sukenari in order for you to get remediation. CKTG should have been ready to eat the cost and then deal with the manufacturer separately. I'll give them credit for heading in the right direction, but CKTG isn't there yet.


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## spoiledbroth (Jun 4, 2015)

^ wow lol.


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## Cheeks1989 (Jun 4, 2015)

**** happens. They are trying to make it right. Can't ask for more then that.


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## Benuser (Jun 4, 2015)

CompE said:


> This is welcome news to hear about CKTG's customer service, and I am glad that it looks like things will work out for you.
> 
> However, I don't want to heap too much praise on CKTG for exceeding low expectations. Ultimately, the vendor sold a defective product and they need to make it right with the customer. The fact that CKTG contacted Sukenari doesn't concern you and you shouldn't need to wait until CKTG has worked something out with Sukenari in order for you to get remediation. CKTG should have been ready to eat the cost and then deal with the manufacturer separately. I'll give them credit for heading in the right direction, but CKTG isn't there yet.



Couldn't agree more. Was exactly my first thought, with my local law in mind. I ignore how these things are regulated in different US states. Glad to hear it seems to be highly similar.


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## marc4pt0 (Jun 4, 2015)

I had a couple flawed knives come to me through the years I've spent money w/ CKTG and have yet to have any issues returning them. They've always been pretty stand up with me so I'd expect they'll do you right as well.


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## preizzo (Jun 4, 2015)

I Bought two knives from them and both are over grind and the handles are super croucket. 
Only thing I can say I was to young in this knives world and I had no clue. Now I have only one trusted vendor. Koki from jck.!!


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## osakajoe (Jun 4, 2015)

You can't hastily blame the vendor. It could be bad qc before being sent out but with honyaki blades things get a bit more tricky. 

A carbon steel knife should actually sit for a good 8 years before being sold or used. This gives the knife time to settle and make sure the steel has no faults. Steel will warp with slight temperature changes and that's why if it has sat around for a long time with no problems the steel is usually quite well made. 

That being said if you have been slicing cold meat chilling your blade and setting it down on a warm/hot surface. You will probably end up cracking your blade, especially if it hasn't had time to settle to see if there were any problems with it. Vice versa too, set your warm blade on a cold kitchen countertop, crack...


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## chinacats (Jun 4, 2015)

preizzo said:


> I Bought two knives from them and both are over grind and the handles are super croucket.
> Only thing I can say I was to young in this knives world and I had no clue. Now I have only one trusted vendor. Koki from jck.!!



I believe you will find the kkf vendors are most trustworthy.


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## supersayan3 (Jun 4, 2015)

Thank you for the most informative post OsakaJoe!

Are you aware of any manufacturer who does this 8 years procedure?


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## spoiledbroth (Jun 5, 2015)

Cheeks1989 said:


> **** happens. They are trying to make it right. Can't ask for more then that.



Some people can and do ask for more than that. :happymug: Can't make everyone happy. Glad to hear there were no troubles.


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## osakajoe (Jun 5, 2015)

supersayan3 said:


> Thank you for the most informative post OsakaJoe!
> 
> Are you aware of any manufacturer who does this 8 years procedure?



It's hard to say. Depends on the craftsmen if they've been sitting on a stockpile they've built up over the years. But I doubt this is the case with fewer craftsmen and higher demand.


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## aaamax (Jun 6, 2015)

osakajoe said:


> ...if you have been slicing cold meat chilling your blade and setting it down on a warm/hot surface. You will probably end up cracking your blade, especially if it hasn't had time to settle to see if there were any problems with it. Vice versa too, set your warm blade on a cold kitchen countertop, crack...



Here's good nugget that is so obvious, yet I have never thought of it.
Cheers Osakajoe!


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## miccro (Jun 7, 2015)

osakajoe said:


> That being said if you have been slicing cold meat chilling your blade and setting it down on a warm/hot surface. You will probably end up cracking your blade, especially if it hasn't had time to settle to see if there were any problems with it. Vice versa too, set your warm blade on a cold kitchen countertop, crack...



seriously? ive not done this and i know it takes time for knives to settle, but the extent of heat treatment and cool water quenching - i would not have thought the steel to be that reactive to more subtle temperature changes. They are reasonably delicate knives, but knives to be used none the less ....

mike


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## Kippington (Jun 7, 2015)

It's an interesting topic that I have yet to fully comprehend.
Here are some excerpts from the book 'Bladesmithing with Murray Carter' that relate to this thread:

- _"Annealing is the first operation of the thermal cycle of heat treating, and occurs prior to quenching and tempering. When steel is heated in the forge and then worked, a certain amount of molecular stress builds up in the steel as the grain is pushed this way and that. Annealing the steel involves heating it thoroughly to the predetermined temperature and then covering the steel in an insulating cover so that it can cool very slowly. The heating and then slow cooling allows the molecules in the steel to rearrange in the most stable formation possible, thus removing the stress."_

- _"Japanese blades actually benefit from a bit of calculated stress inside the steel. It contributes to their overall cutting performance, therefore it is not beneficial to fully anneal."_

- _"Japanese blades are process annealed once and then are subjugated to a very severe process called cold forging. Rather then stress relieve the steel though a series of extra annealing and normalizing, the blades are actually stress induced. The Japanese blades are not machined before quenching, but rather are hardened at full thickness to ensure an even hardness throughout the blade.
The quenching medium is a revealing indicator of the difference in philosophies as well. Western blades are usually quenched in oil, which is a slow and gentle quenchant. Japanese blades are always quenched in water, which is a very severe quenchant. If there are any hidden imperfections in the blade they will be revealed as it is removed from the violent water quench, as cracks and areas of delamination. It is a huge emotional investment to quench a blade in water after spending days forging and preparing."_

Perhaps someone on this forum can explain how blade steel can benefit from internal stresses. I sure can't. :scratchhead:


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## osakajoe (Jun 7, 2015)

miccro said:


> seriously? ive not done this and i know it takes time for knives to settle, but the extent of heat treatment and cool water quenching - i would not have thought the steel to be that reactive to more subtle temperature changes. They are reasonably delicate knives, but knives to be used none the less ....
> 
> mike



Do you own and use hand forged honyaki knives? It's more the case when you get into your forged carbon steel knives.


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## miccro (Jun 8, 2015)

osakajoe said:


> Do you own and use hand forged honyaki knives? It's more the case when you get into your forged carbon steel knives.




yes- i started the topic 

i own quite a few, use them regularly -the honyaki daily, never had a problem with any others.

- only used on wood blocks and warm water when cleaning- so dont see much temperature change. I thought that with the process used in making , quick but slight temp changes wouldn't be an issue. a cool knife from chopping meat to warm tap water, or cool marble top to carving hot meat- i would be surprised if the change in temperature from simple kitchen tasks would cause enough heat stress to crack the knives. If it did we would be seeing more threads like this one... im sure most people look after their forged carbons well -but dont baby them as much as this.


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## osakajoe (Jun 8, 2015)

No what your doing is fine. It's fast sudden temperature changes that can can put stress on the steel causing it to warp and crack. But if the steel was not properly made and already had faults in it, any small stress could cause it to break. 

And of course any honyaki carbon steel knife needs to be babied and used with extreme delicacy.


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## chinacats (Jun 8, 2015)

osakajoe said:


> And of course any honyaki carbon steel knife needs to be babied and used with extreme delicacy.



I beat the hell out of every knife I have/had including honyaki with no problems.


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## malexthekid (Jun 8, 2015)

I am intrigued by this... I just can't imagine any knife ever getting a temperature shift enough to cause any damage, even if it isn't properly made, with relatively normal use.

Like you would need to sit the thing in an over and then dump it straight in an ice bath... In general use, even cutting something fresh out of the oven the blade isn't going to have enough heat transferred to it to make a difference when placed back on a "cold" bench top. Especially given it is essentially exposed to the atmosphere... Remember your bench is basically going to be at ambient temperature, plus or minus a couple of degrees, so basically the same as pulling the knife out and letting it rest in air.


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## miccro (Jun 8, 2015)

malexthekid said:


> I am intrigued by this... I just can't imagine any knife ever getting a temperature shift enough to cause any damage, even if it isn't properly made, with relatively normal use.
> 
> Like you would need to sit the thing in an over and then dump it straight in an ice bath... In general use, even cutting something fresh out of the oven the blade isn't going to have enough heat transferred to it to make a difference when placed back on a "cold" bench top. Especially given it is essentially exposed to the atmosphere... Remember your bench is basically going to be at ambient temperature, plus or minus a couple of degrees, so basically the same as pulling the knife out and letting it rest in air.



Agreed!


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## spoiledbroth (Jun 11, 2015)

what is ambient temperature.... today the air makeup went down at work and within ten, fifteen minutes the kitchen was 110f...! Had we not killed alot of the equipment it probably would have gotten worse. Funnily the line is regularly around high 90s. I could see that maybe having an effect. Or I've seen people put knives under heat lamps, not realizing they were on or... not really sure why they'd do it. I have read about dimensionally unstable carbon as well.


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Jun 11, 2015)

Careful there broth. Without proper fresh air intake the burners won't be working anywhere near optimally and you're at risk for carbon monoxide poisoning.


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## miccro (Jul 23, 2015)

a final update for those who asked- received a refund for the knife. 

mike


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## CompE (Jul 24, 2015)

It had sounded like you were headed for an exchange. Mind if I asked how/why that changed into a refund?


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## Dave Martell (Jul 24, 2015)

miccro said:


> a final update for those who asked- received a refund for the knife.
> 
> mike




Did you get a refund or store credit?


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## miccro (Jul 25, 2015)

full refund after a bit of discussion, rather not say more, Content with the outcome.


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## Benuser (Jul 25, 2015)

Dave Martell said:


> Did you get a refund or store credit?



Sharp!


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## Benuser (Jul 25, 2015)

miccro said:


> full refund after a bit of discussion, rather not say more, Content with the outcome.



Great it has been settled.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 25, 2015)

I should polish mine up and give a thorough inspection, definitely will do before I put a handle on it.


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## Dave Martell (Jul 25, 2015)

miccro said:


> full refund after a bit of discussion, rather not say more, Content with the outcome.




:thumbsup:


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## koki (Jul 26, 2015)

That's great to hear


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