# UPDATE - Please read if waiting for work from me - Part II



## Dave Martell

Hello everyone, I have some things to share with you...

First is that I've been offered some help, from a very kind member of this community, that will greatly assist me in speeding up the process of knife making.

As a result, Im in the process of acquiring a new 2x72 belt grinder which will be a HUGE upgrade to the very limited 2x48 grinder I currently use. 

Ill explain what this means



*The Plan
*
As many of you are aware I have a backlog of pre-paid for Martell knives and an always growing stack of pre-paid for re-handle coupon work that constantly comes into the shop. I have a hard time fulfilling these pre-paid orders on a timely basis because I need to also make knives for sale to keep the lights on. This is a vicious cycle, that unfortunately, (out of necessity) currently favors the for sale work - This needs to change.

The plan is that once I can begin using this new equipment effectively Ill divide my time between the making of pre-paid knives/pre-paid re-handle work (fulfilling of outstanding orders) with the making of knives/handles (for interim income generation), as I have been doing, *BUT* with a shift towards a ratio that favors the pre-paid for work. This being possible with the increase in speed offered by the new grinder.

The ultimate goal here is to catch up on the pre-paid backorders at a faster rate than previously possible and to reduce the current effects of the new work that is "cutting in line".




*Moving Forward*

The new grinder will not be in place until the mid-end of December so no significant change will be seen until the beginning of the New Year. 

In the meantime, Im going to make a few changes in the process that I believe will help (at least) the pre-paid re-handle customers. I'm going to try again to co-ordinate incoming work to alleviate the amount of time that you have to be without your knives and to hopefully reduce your need for, and my anxiety to provide, constant updates. Ill post more as soon as I can.


To everyone waiting on me, thanks for your patience.

Regards,
Dave


----------



## TheCaptain

I think this sounds brilliant and a great way to move forward!


----------



## brianh

Great news, Dave.


----------



## pkjames

Great work Dave, glad that you are heading to the right direction and moving forward!


----------



## sudsy9977

Stop posting and star grinding ya bum! Lol


----------



## Dave Martell

Thanks for all the support folks...even Ryan


----------



## Matus

Good luck Dave and thanks and kudos to whoever it is that offered the helping hand.


----------



## WhiteLightning

/de-lurk

Allo-

As a quiet member (ok, lurker), I did get 'caught up' in this.

Did things go horribly wrong? No. Dave made good.
Did things go as I expected? Nope, product was delivered late (depending on how you count 4mo).
Do I understand things go squirrely in life? Sure.

So I'm here to vouch for Dave and his effort to get straight.

BUT I will scold him AGGRESSIVELY for allowing me to have incorrect expectations. (It's not really important if it was a mistake, miscommunication, overly optimistic ability to magically get back on track, etc...)

How was the process and communication? Like I said to Dave, it certainly wasn't perfect. Was I disappointed, yup, but I wasn't harmed. We made it back to even. But it did take a bit of 'wow' outta the experience of some great knives.

A great product, a decent guy, it's unfortunate to see the stumbles. I'm here to support and say even when things went 'not perfect' we still got to the end-zone.

WL
\re-lurk


----------



## daddy yo yo

WhiteLightning said:


> (...) we still got to the end-zone.


Uhm, that is a bit more info than necessary. I only need to know if you got your knife-related stuff done and not if you made it to second base... :wink:


----------



## daveb

Well said WL.


----------



## Nomsdotcom

As someone that is waiting for work from you Dave, all I can say is you have my full support and confidence. I know it's never easy to work yourself out of a hole, especially with constant scrutiny. As customers I believe we need to take a level of responsibility as well (not pointing fingers). If you have unrealistic expectations from a maker you are only going to be creating more tension. That being said, I am not I'm line for a rehandle (and I can see the frusturating aspect of being without a knife).

So at least for me Dave, if you need to focus on other things to keep the lights on, and to make a better creative environment for yourself... feel free to put me at the back of the line.
I figure it's a bit like cooking, you make your best dish when you are happy and focused.

Sorry about all that, felt like I needed to speak my mind

-Kevin


----------



## Dave Martell

I sure do have some great customers/friends here at KKF, I'm very lucky in that regard. 

Thanks


----------



## Dave Martell

Current doings....

I'm working on multiple Martell knives from my pre-paid list, a few petties and a suji. The suji is actually not a pre-pay, it's a contest won knife from 2012 (!!!), that I'm finally getting to. I feel ashamed for making this guy wait so long. Ugh

I also had a couple of Christmas gift knives, one completed, the other in work.

Lots of sharpening keeps rolling in Nov-Dec this year. I'm happy and very grateful, to have this work but it slows down the knife making.

I plan to attack rehandles next month....and rehandles I've got a lot of here in the shop waiting. I'll do first in - first out. I'll contact those who have knives here when I get started on their knives so as to discuss details.

I'm also starting up a new website for Martell Knives. It'll be mostly informative at the start but I hope to eventually have knives for sale there. Might also re-do my sharpening websites while I'm at it....but as always time is an issue...

Thanks for your time,
Dave


----------



## Dave Martell

For those looking to send in work...


The days of tackling work as it comes have long passed and I need to get more organized, so, I'm shopping for a scheduling/planner type program. 

My plans for this planner are to be able to plug in work on a scheduled basis, to be able to communicate better with customers in scheduling their work, to know what I need to do and when it needs being done, stop the guesswork, and to basically become more responsible in fulfilling obligations. 

I'll update this thread when I have more to share.

Dave


----------



## WildBoar

Sounds like good stuff, Dave.


----------



## Matus

Dave, you are on the right track, keep at it [emoji106]


----------



## Dave Martell

OK, I've wasted _sooooo _much time on the search for a program to help me keep track of my schedule, etc...I'm going to just buy a stupid book and do it the old fashioned way which is probably what I should have just done in the first place. :slaphead:


----------



## malexthekid

Or just use excel... if you are lucky a quick google search may give you an already done template....

Otherwise totally agree. Sometimes you can't beat an old fashioned book and pencil


----------



## Dave Martell

UPDATE>

It's become very clear to me that no matter how hard I work that I will not get out of this mess I'm in anytime soon. 

What I'm up against:

1. Rehandles that have been stacking up for 1.5 yrs and still coming.

2. Early paid for Martell Knives are still outstanding and need to be built....plus some from the last few months.

3. I have to make new knives, do sharpening as it comes, and take in repair work just to keep the lights on. This is no exaggeration either, "barely scraping by" is the saying that comes to mind here. 


#3 takes so much time each month that I never have any extra time to deal with #1 & #2. I'm able currently, at best, to do one extra pre-paid for job each month. At this rate it'll take any 2-3 yrs to do just what I have here now! 

I have customers asking when they can send in their knives for rehandling (claiming a rehandle coupon) and I have no idea what to tell them, I certainly can't say send it in in 2 yrs or I'll contact you in 2 yrs...ugh.

And it sure doesn't help that I've had to lower my knife prices down by 30% of what I was charging not so long ago. The pricing thing is a direct result of me having to sell X amount each month to cover bills and not being able to wait for a buyer. I'm sure it doesn't help that there are now 200 extra kitchen knifemakers in the custom market but I have no idea if that has directly effected me or not.

So I'm at the point that I don't know what to do besides just keep on doing it, I have no options. 

I hope that this doesn't upset my customers too much but I feel the need to share this with you.


----------



## WildBoar

Dave, while it may upset some customers, the fact that you are communicating is a huge plus. Keep chipping away at it.


----------



## KCMande

Dave,
I understand your situation, and as always respect your work and understand it takes time and effort. 
That being said I have had some stuff kicking around for a while, possibly years, that I have been meaning to send you. I have possibly even asked this before, but would you prefer me send it off to you and have it collect dust and wait in line or wait until demand dies down and space frees up?


----------



## Dave Martell

KCMande said:


> Dave,
> I understand your situation, and as always respect your work and understand it takes time and effort.
> That being said I have had some stuff kicking around for a while, possibly years, that I have been meaning to send you. I have possibly even asked this before, but would you prefer me send it off to you and have it collect dust and wait in line or wait until demand dies down and space frees up?



I'll shoot you a PM


----------



## Dave Martell

WildBoar said:


> Dave, while it may upset some customers, the fact that you are communicating is a huge plus. Keep chipping away at it.




Thanks for the encouragement David.


----------



## Kingkor

I truly can't belive the community is still supporting you! This is just an absurd situation. I know people have hard times in life and in their businesses but come on this is too much. I'm not for going against someone or throwing anyone to the dogs but if someone can't get their **** together they need to find a way and get **** done, or admit his mistakes take the heat and blame and move on. And not to carry it with him and with his customers for years. Yes this is a community and yes this post will get deleted and I might get a ban or a warning but come on mods and members get your heads out of wherever they're stuck in and see the truth with clear eyes, if I was you I'd take the hit close the business and move on to another profession or atleast stop trying to run the businesses books and hire someone who can do it. If this was a real business it would have been bankrupt and in courts a very long time ago, and I'm not saying that that's what I or any of my friends would like to see happen but in my opinion we as a community can't keep on supporting this. This is just my opinion feel free to delete it or comment on it and good luck to you Dave Martell I truly mean it [emoji16].


----------



## Nomsdotcom

Need an unpaid apprentice??


----------



## Godslayer

Nomsdotcom said:


> Need an unpaid apprentice??



Dis is what he needs :knife:


----------



## Dave Martell

Kingkor said:


> I truly can't belive the community is still supporting you! This is just an absurd situation. I know people have hard times in life and in their businesses but come on this is too much.



This is hard for me to believe too. I can only attribute it to the level of quality people we have here.






Kingkor said:


> I'm not for going against someone or throwing anyone to the dogs but if someone can't get their **** together they need to find a way and get **** done, or admit his mistakes take the heat and blame and move on. And not to carry it with him and with his customers for years.



I truly am admitting all my mistakes yet I've left out many additional contributing factors as I feel most people don't want/need excuses. I promise that I've done my level best to take the heat by admitting my mistakes in public for all to see. It's of course very unfortunate that I have customers entangled in this mess with me.






Kingkor said:


> Yes this is a community and yes this post will get deleted and I might get a ban or a warning but come on mods and members get your heads out of wherever they're stuck in and see the truth with clear eyes,



Since I started this forum with Jim back in 2011 the moderating policy of censoring members comments were to leave them alone as long as the posts appear to be truthful, respectful, and not beating a dead horse. The new owners, to the best of my knowledge, along with the moderators have carried this policy on. I see no reason why your comments will be deleted, that you'd get a warning, or banned for what you've said here. 






Kingkor said:


> ...if I was you I'd take the hit close the business and move on to another profession...or atleast stop trying to run the businesses books and hire someone who can do it. If this was a real business it would have been bankrupt and in courts a very long time ago, and I'm not saying that that's what I or any of my friends would like to see happen but in my opinion we as a community can't keep on supporting this.



Maybe you're correct, maybe closing the business down is the answer, yet I've chose not to go that route.

Here's my reasons why....

1. This is the biggest reason of all - I can't just screw people, members, friends over like that. This just doesn't work for me. I want to make good as best I can.

2. What else can I do? My reality is that I can't work a regular job, working regular hours, on a regular schedule, this isn't something that I can do as I have physical limitations. The reason why I work for myself is because I either have to do this or collect SSI, that's government disability. When my problems came to me back in 2002 I made a decision that if I was to live through it that I was going to do my best to continue to support myself and not live off the government, not that one could actually live on $700 a month, but that's beside the point. It's either work for myself or become a peasant. 

3. I've been working this business, in one form or another, full time since 2004. I taught myself how to sharpen, repair, and make knives including Japanese hair shears, all Japanese kitchen knives, and now custom knives. This was a long hard road with lots of trade offs taken. One of the biggest trade offs is having no time for my family. In fact the last two nights have been rather sad for me as my youngest daughter (8 yrs old) cried herself to sleep 2 nights ago and last night had me holding her for 1/2 an hour while she cried again. What has her upset is that she never gets to spend any time with me and is worried that because I'm the oldest I will die before she gets to do something with me. She was writing this in her journal too, it's effected her this much. She is 100% correct in that I spend almost no time with her/them. In fact besides the time we had together back in 2014/15(?) when we were homeless I haven't done anything with them besides going to the food store. I hear people complain about not having to be able to take a 2nd vacation this year and I chuckle to myself. Anyway, the point that I'm trying to make is that I have a lot invested in this business and I find it very hard to walk away from it.



As to the issue of hiring someone to manage my books for me. I think that would be great yet I don't do this because I have a rather simple problem - a negative cash flow. I believe that my problem can't be corrected by paying someone to tell me that I have more money going out than coming in.






Kingkor said:


> ...and good luck to you Dave Martell I truly mean it [emoji16].



Thanks for your well wishes.


----------



## mille162

Dave,

I'm all or supporting the forum, small business craftsmen and the knife community in general, but we need a little more information:

Can you please post the list so we can see where we stand. As one of those customers waiting, I'd like to see where I am in the list. If you want to be truly open and communicate with everyone, let us see how much work is left to do, and where we are in that list.

What is the time estimate for a rehandle? for a sharpen? For a custom knife build? If you can just put together a simple spreadsheet of the work, the estimated # of hours to complete each job, and how many hours a day/week you are working, we can then reasonably estimate when we'll see our work.

April 2017 you told me it was a 6-9 month wait.
Jan 2018 you told me you hadn't started it and needed 1-2 more months
We're now at 15 months you've had my package and I've got no idea if my knives are next or there are 100 in front of me.

Please publish a list of where work stands so I can determine if it's worth waiting (and the likely hood I'll actually get that work done), and if I should just write-off the pre-purchase of the rehandles from you.

I hope you are able to turn things around as your work on my first handle looks great!

Thanks

Ron


----------



## Dave Martell

I'm sorry to be disappointing you again Ron but I won't be able to comply with your request here. 

Dave


----------



## mille162

Ok Dave, if you won't tell your customers where you are in the "list" you have, send me back my knives and refund me what I've paid you. 15 months is beyond unacceptable, especially considering you can't give any realistic estimate as to when you will actually be able to deliver.

ADMIN & MODERATORS, please consider the number of forum members who made purchases with Martell Knives based on the forum sponsorship and involvement, and the number of forum members who paid Martel knives for services and products which they are not able to deliver.


----------



## osakajoe

Outsource handle work and stop taking any new re handle or re sharpening jobs. 

How many forged knife blanks, let’s say gyuto 210mm, can you grind and sharpen to completion in a day?


----------



## brooksie967

ouch


----------



## Godslayer

osakajoe said:


> Outsource handle work and stop taking any new re handle or re sharpening jobs.
> 
> How many forged knife blanks, let’s say gyuto 210mm, can you grind and sharpen to completion in a day?




He's right, your going to face a real issue coming up, I know a lot of people are mad right now, I've had a few talks, I don't know what your doing wrong but your output is way way too low. Every maker I know of has significantly higher output, stock removal knives you should be able to output several a week without issue . I don't want to see it happen but your going to get burned and become another Pierre. It's not a good situation. And I don't know what your doing if anything to fix it. You need better project management skills and you need to take a couple hours, figure out what's owed, make a time table and stick to it, otherwise your going to get blacklisted by the community. A lot of guys are mad at you right now and your whining about you not knowing what to do isn't a valid solution. REALISTICALLY a custom handle shouldn't take more then 2-4 hours. Your not doing anything crazy, all your work is relatively basic stuff done at the highest level possible. We get fit and finish takes time, but your time is coming to an end of you don't figure your zhit out and figure it out fast. Even I'm getting mad and I don't even have work from you and I won't(I want to) get work from you until you smarten the f up and get your life together .


----------



## WildBoar

Uhm, I am not sure you (or any of us) know all that is going on in Dave M's life. He is a man with a with and kids, and he is struggling to keep things moving along as best he can. "Get your life together" is a bit much, in my opinion. You have no effin' clue what any other things that may be going on in the background.

I feel bad for all who have prepaid for rehandles and knives. I really do. And several of those people are forum members I have become friends with, so I see both sides. But for those who are not waiting for prepaid work, the easiest thing to do is to keep it that way.

As far as the Pierre reference is concerned, Pierre went underground and left many people screwed over. Dave M has not done that. He has admitted he does not have the money to pay back all those who have prepaid, but he is still chipping away at the work. He has to keep a roof over his family first and foremost, while still working slowly to make things right with customers. I suspect if you were in the same boat your family would come first. At least I would hope so.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

WildBoar said:


> Uhm, I am not sure you (or any of us) know all that is going on in Dave M's life. He is a man with a with and kids, and he is struggling to keep things moving along as best he can. "Get your life together" is a bit much, in my opinion. You have no effin' clue what any other things that may be going on in the background.
> 
> I feel bad for all who have prepaid for rehandles and knives. I really do. And several of those people are forum members I have become friends with, so I see both sides. But for those who are not waiting for prepaid work, the easiest thing to do is to keep it that way.
> 
> As far as the Pierre reference is concerned, Pierre went underground and left many people screwed over. Dave M has not done that. He has admitted he does not have the money to pay back all those who have prepaid, but he is still chipping away at the work. He has to keep a roof over his family first and foremost, while still working slowly to make things right with customers. I suspect if you were in the same boat your family would come first. At least I would hope so.



Where's the 'like' button when you need it?


----------



## Dave Martell

Once again, I do not just make knives or handles - sharpening & repair work - is nearly half of what I do! Also, I don't work regular hours that can be easily tracked or planned, and I often lose 1/2 days to a medical condition that I have NO control over! I do the best I can do with what I have. This isn't me complaining or making excuses - it is the ******* truth!

I'll continue to plug away at reducing my backlog of pre-paid work, and yes it is always being dealt with, until it's gone. I'm sorry if this isn't fast enough or done exactly as some would have it but again it's getting done. Would I be better off calling it quits and screwing every person owed? That's the alternative here.


----------



## Dave Martell

WildBoar said:


> Uhm, I am not sure you (or any of us) know all that is going on in Dave M's life. He is a man with a with and kids, and he is struggling to keep things moving along as best he can. "Get your life together" is a bit much, in my opinion. You have no effin' clue what any other things that may be going on in the background.
> 
> I feel bad for all who have prepaid for rehandles and knives. I really do. And several of those people are forum members I have become friends with, so I see both sides. But for those who are not waiting for prepaid work, the easiest thing to do is to keep it that way.
> 
> As far as the Pierre reference is concerned, Pierre went underground and left many people screwed over. Dave M has not done that. He has admitted he does not have the money to pay back all those who have prepaid, but he is still chipping away at the work. He has to keep a roof over his family first and foremost, while still working slowly to make things right with customers. I suspect if you were in the same boat your family would come first. At least I would hope so.





Pensacola Tiger said:


> Where's the 'like' button when you need it?




Thank you guys.


----------



## brianh

Dave Martell said:


> Once again, I do not just make knives or handles - sharpening & repair work - is nearly half of what I do! Also, I don't work regular hours that can be easily tracked or planned, and I often lose 1/2 days to a medical condition that I have NO control over! I do the best I can do with what I have. This isn't me complaining or making excuses - it is the ******* truth!
> 
> I'll continue to plug away at reducing my backlog of pre-paid work, and yes it is always being dealt with, until it's gone. I'm sorry if this isn't fast enough or done exactly as some would have it but again it's getting done. Would I be better off calling it quits and screwing every person owed? That's the alternative here.





Pensacola Tiger said:


> Where's the 'like' button when you need it?



Was wondering the same thing.


----------



## Dave Martell

Thanks Brian


----------



## brooksie967

Dave Martell said:


> Once again, I do not just make knives or handles - sharpening & repair work - is nearly half of what I do! Also, I don't work regular hours that can be easily tracked or planned, and I often lose 1/2 days to a medical condition that I have NO control over! I do the best I can do with what I have. This isn't me complaining or making excuses - it is the ******* truth!
> 
> I'll continue to plug away at reducing my backlog of pre-paid work, and yes it is always being dealt with, until it's gone. I'm sorry if this isn't fast enough or done exactly as some would have it but again it's getting done. Would I be better off calling it quits and screwing every person owed? That's the alternative here.



I get it. At the same time maybe stop taking new custom work until you get everything else sorted out.


----------



## Godslayer

Firstly I'd like to formally apologize to Mr. Martell, what I said really wasn't needed and probably just poured salt on the wound, I probably should of sent my thoughts in PM or FB or IG on a private channel and I apologize for my antagonistic behavior, the Pierre reference was a step too far as he at least communicates. As most people know I am a fan of martells work and have openly stated he probably makes the cleanest hidden tang yo handle on the market, easily being on par with most if not all master blade smiths. My main concern is that his reputation continues to dwindle, and as someone who respects daves work I did not want this too happen, he's an interesting guy with interesting posts and makes interesting knives and handles. I like Dave, I like Dave a lot and it hurts me to see. I say this because when I mentioned he should redo my takamura I had several forum members tell me that may not be a good idea, and if they are doing that to me, they are probably doing that to others. I want Dave to succeed, I want to see Dave make more bad ass knives and continue to develop his craft, I want dave to be able to charge what his knives are actually worth vs the over 9000 price drops weve been seeing lately. I know what I'm saying in here is out of line... and I apologize again for that. I just want everyone to be happy and for everyone to feel respected as individuals(sorry I'm Canadian).


----------



## Dave Martell

Godslayer said:


> Firstly I'd like to formally apologize to Mr. Martell, what I said really wasn't needed and probably just poured salt on the wound, I probably should of sent my thoughts in PM or FB or IG on a private channel and I apologize for my antagonistic behavior, the Pierre reference was a step too far as he at least communicates. As most people know I am a fan of martells work and have openly stated he probably makes the cleanest hidden tang yo handle on the market, easily being on par with most if not all master blade smiths. My main concern is that his reputation continues to dwindle, and as someone who respects daves work I did not want this too happen, he's an interesting guy with interesting posts and makes interesting knives and handles. I like Dave, I like Dave a lot and it hurts me to see. I say this because when I mentioned he should redo my takamura I had several forum members tell me that may not be a good idea, and if they are doing that to me, they are probably doing that to others. I want Dave to succeed, I want to see Dave make more bad ass knives and continue to develop his craft, I want dave to be able to charge what his knives are actually worth vs the over 9000 price drops weve been seeing lately. I know what I'm saying in here is out of line... and I apologize again for that. I just want everyone to be happy and for everyone to feel respected as individuals(sorry I'm Canadian).




Thank you for this Evan.


----------



## Dave Martell

brooksie967 said:


> I get it. At the same time maybe stop taking new custom work until you get everything else sorted out.



You're correct that would be best and I wish I could.


----------



## Godslayer

Again I'm sorry. I get mad because I care.


----------



## Dave Martell

Godslayer said:


> Again I'm sorry. I get mad because I care.



No hard feelings here Evan. Thanks for your concern.


----------



## panda

man what a mess. i didnt want to get involved as i don't have a lick in this situation but i am curious, has everyone in the backlog been acknowledged? as in shoot each of them an email that you are aware the work owed and perhaps where they stand in the queue.

i know it must suck waiting for stuff, but some of you wait years just to get on a waiting list so what's the difference? also be reminiscent that kkf wouldn't even exist without dave. cut the man some slack.


----------



## ecchef

I think what a lot of people don’t understand is that a significant number of vendors here work on shoestring budgets, do not have a staff of office admins, actually do have real medical issues, and need to engage in side work to keep their heads above water. Artisan work is unfortunately incompatible with today’s idiotic ‘immediate satisfaction’ lifestyles; a custom handle should take between “2-4 hours”...really? With what, a 3D printer? 
There have been several quality handle & knifemakers here that have gotten in over their heads and have subsequently either atoned for their mistakes or just disappeared. Martell’s work is as good as (and probably better than) most of his peers, who also have long wait times. If it wasn’t, he wouldn’t have such a backlog, would he?
For those of you that still don’t get it, go buy an $800 piece of shite from Chelsea Miller or jump on the latest Kickstarter crapfest. I’m sure you’ll be much happier.


----------



## dwalker

As a member who seriously considered spending my hard earned cash with Dave on a custom, I was extremely intrigued with the reputation of his finished knives. 

I was then turned off from the idea due to the reputation that I may be waiting way longer than quoted, and, in the mean time, "production knives" (those offered for sale without a commission from a client) would hit BST regularly to pay the bills. 

I have no dog in this fight, but, with hopes of helping Dave, I wanted to share what I, along with many other potential clients, must feel about the situation. 

This, with the lack of transparency, has to be dissuading many people from spending money. Take it for what it is worth, but in my opinion, this can't last very much longer. Loyal customers can only carry you so far. 

I sincerely hope it works out.


----------



## mille162

panda said:


> man what a mess. i didnt want to get involved as i don't have a lick in this situation but i am curious, has everyone in the backlog been acknowledged? as in shoot each of them an email that you are aware the work owed and perhaps where they stand in the queue.
> 
> i know it must suck waiting for stuff, but some of you wait years just to get on a waiting list so what's the difference? also be reminiscent that kkf wouldn't even exist without dave. cut the man some slack.



This was my request. PUT UP A LIST so we can all see where we are and just how bad the "backlog" is. I AM a customer, I've prepaid and Dave had 2 of my knives now. I only asked Dave, as he's "doing the best he can", and giving us in the que vague updates like "it will be just another 2-3 months" (in January, after a 10 month wait already), to be honest with us and let us all know the where we stand in the que. 

He has ads running on the forum, no? He's buying new supplies to make new knives, no? Well, he must be spending money he shouldn't be as many of us prepaid for work and have not received the service yet. Consumer protection laws specifically prohibit the reselling of services without the ability to perform them. Now, we can take Dave's word that he's "doing the best he can" but when I asked for a sign of good faith by showing us what his work list is and where we, the prepaid customers, stand on it, he refused to do so. Dave does admit to still taking on new work, and creating new products and selling them, and yet the prepaid work is just put on hold. Am I the only customer, or are there 500 certificates for prepaid work out there unable to be redeemed in a reasonable amount of time?

*PENNSYLVANIA UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION LAW
§201-2. Definitions*
(x) Advertising goods or services with intent not to supply *reasonably expectable public demand*, unless the advertisement discloses a limitation of quantity.

Before anyone comments on having this conversation here as opposed to a private discussion with Dave, you should know that Dave responded to my private email request for an update on a date for my work to be completed, with a link to this thread, and no answer on a timeline, so I feel he has OPENLY ASKED HIS CUSTOMERS TO DISCUSS IT PUBLICLY HERE. Prior to his email, I was unaware of this thread as it's buried in Dave's subforum!

I've gotten one rehandle done by him, it looked great, I was excited to have more of my knives done. However, he's running a business and after 16 months, he is not willing to give me a timeline for the work (correction, he's given me several deadlines, all of which have long since passed), or an indication as to where I am in the list, and what the expected timeline is for completing my work.

Many here have offered suggestions on how to save his business and better operate but Dave is spending time here on the forum and posting "I wish I could" and thank you's instead of spending time in the shop getting through the work load. 

At this point, I'm more concerned with my knives disappearing in a stack of boxes in his garage when his business goes under!

Dave is openly admitting he is unable to deliver the work he has already been paid for and is offering no solutions for those customers on here who are out the money (and possibly losing our knives)...why is he allowed to still sell here on the forum???


----------



## Dave Martell

mille162 said:


> This was my request. PUT UP A LIST so we can all see where we are and just how bad the "backlog" is. I AM a customer, I've prepaid and Dave had 2 of my knives now. I only asked Dave, as he's "doing the best he can", and giving us in the que vague updates like "it will be just another 2-3 months" (in January, after a 10 month wait already), to be honest with us and let us all know the where we stand in the que.
> 
> He has ads running on the forum, no? He's buying new supplies to make new knives, no? Well, he must be spending money he shouldn't be as many of us prepaid for work and have not received the service yet. Consumer protection laws specifically prohibit the reselling of services without the ability to perform them. Now, we can take Dave's word that he's "doing the best he can" but when I asked for a sign of good faith by showing us what his work list is and where we, the prepaid customers, stand on it, he refused to do so. Dave does admit to still taking on new work, and creating new products and selling them, and yet the prepaid work is just put on hold. Am I the only customer, or are there 500 certificates for prepaid work out there unable to be redeemed in a reasonable amount of time?
> 
> *PENNSYLVANIA UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION LAW
> §201-2. Definitions*
> (x) Advertising goods or services with intent not to supply *reasonably expectable public demand*, unless the advertisement discloses a limitation of quantity.
> 
> Before anyone comments on having this conversation here as opposed to a private discussion with Dave, you should know that Dave responded to my private email request for an update on a date for my work to be completed, with a link to this thread, and no answer on a timeline, so I feel he has OPENLY ASKED HIS CUSTOMERS TO DISCUSS IT PUBLICLY HERE. Prior to his email, I was unaware of this thread as it's buried in Dave's subforum!
> 
> I've gotten one rehandle done by him, it looked great, I was excited to have more of my knives done. However, he's running a business and after 16 months, he is not willing to give me a timeline for the work (correction, he's given me several deadlines, all of which have long since passed), or an indication as to where I am in the list, and what the expected timeline is for completing my work.
> 
> Many here have offered suggestions on how to save his business and better operate but Dave is spending time here on the forum and posting "I wish I could" and thank you's instead of spending time in the shop getting through the work load.
> 
> At this point, I'm more concerned with my knives disappearing in a stack of boxes in his garage when his business goes under!
> 
> Dave is openly admitting he is unable to deliver the work he has already been paid for and is offering no solutions for those customers on here who are out the money (and possibly losing our knives)...why is he allowed to still sell here on the forum???




Ron Hansen,
I do appreciate your input here as I'm sure you'll appreciate mine.

First is that your knives (and wood blocks) were shipped out this afternoon so you'll have them back in your possession within a day or so.

Again, I'm very sorry for holding your one knife for 16 months, then allowing you to talk me into sending in another knife 6 months ago to add to the pile. Funny thing is that I just opened your boxes last night to see two knives that I don't re-handle anyway, that would have gone over well no doubt.

Dave


----------



## Dave Martell

mille162 said:


> Dave is openly admitting he is unable to deliver the work he has already been paid for and is offering no solutions for those customers on here who are out the money (and possibly losing our knives)...why is he allowed to still sell here on the forum???



Would bankruptcy serve you better than waiting?


----------



## Anton

Dave Martell said:


> Would bankruptcy serve you better than waiting?



I don’t get into these and I’m surely not defending or agreeing with not delivering paid work, but here it goes at my own expense... 

I admire your work and craftsmanship - keep it pro as the pro you are and want to continue being, don’t dig yourself deeper with commentary like this and building a defense, I’m sure it’s hard to take the attacks but imo own them, hunk down and plow away to get out of the hole.

Bad communication is usually the worst weapon when we are in the mud, but frankly anything specially business, communication may just be what keeps anyone away from serious troubles


----------



## Dave Martell

Anton said:


> I don’t get into these and I’m surely not defending or agreeing with not delivering paid work, but here it goes at my own expense...
> 
> I admire your work and craftsmanship - keep it pro as the pro you are and want to continue being, don’t dig yourself deeper with commentary like this and building a defense, I’m sure it’s hard to take the attacks but imo own them, hunk down and plow away to get out of the hole.
> 
> Bad communication is usually the worst weapon when we are in the mud, but frankly anything specially business, communication may just be what keeps anyone away from serious troubles




I swear I'm trying Anton. Thanks for the encouragement.


----------



## Dave Martell

dwalker said:


> As a member who seriously considered spending my hard earned cash with Dave on a custom, I was extremely intrigued with the reputation of his finished knives.
> 
> I was then turned off from the idea due to the reputation that I may be waiting way longer than quoted, and, in the mean time, "production knives" (those offered for sale without a commission from a client) would hit BST regularly to pay the bills.
> 
> I have no dog in this fight, but, with hopes of helping Dave, I wanted to share what I, along with many other potential clients, must feel about the situation.
> 
> This, with the lack of transparency, has to be dissuading many people from spending money. Take it for what it is worth, but in my opinion, this can't last very much longer. Loyal customers can only carry you so far.
> 
> I sincerely hope it works out.




Thanks for your input, I'm listening.


----------



## daveb

We're fortunate here to have several outstanding craftsmen among our ranks, Dave among them. Unfortunately they seem to fall into one of two groups. Craftsman like Haburn and Bloodroot do exceptional work and run their business like a business - communication is a strong suit. Hence there is seldom if ever a complaint. Others are equally good with the craftsman part but the communications is not so good. I don't think even Dave would argue that he's in the second group.

Forum readers / members don't need to look very hard to see which craftsmen are in which groups. This thread has served it's purpose of allowing members awaiting work to communicate their issues. And Dave is getting some deserved grief. But it is not a place for a chitshow. 

If you have work with Dave, I hope (and am confident) that it will work out. And feel free to continue to air problems in this or subsequent threads. If you don't have a dog in this hunt, pls refrain.


----------



## panda




----------



## Dave Martell

daveb said:


> We're fortunate here to have several outstanding craftsmen among our ranks, Dave among them. Unfortunately they seem to fall into one of two groups. Craftsman like Haburn and Bloodroot do exceptional work and run their business like a business - communication is a strong suit. Hence there is seldom if ever a complaint. Others are equally good with the craftsman part but the communications is not so good. I don't think even Dave would argue that he's in the second group.



I am indeed in the group of poor communicators. I used to be considered to be the opposite though, even a very quick turnaround craftsman as well but both issues changed when I fell behind. 

I do, however, still actively communicate with customers while I'm working on their knives, or getting ready to -then they hear from me quite a bit. I see little point to sending out emails, and opening discussions that take away time, just to tell a customer what they already know. This is, to me, stupid work. Do people find this comforting to be constantly reminded of what they already know? Maybe they do and I'm missing that?


----------



## panda

dave you have to realize people are mostly sheep, they like to be coddled. i agree it's stupid but that's the reality. it makes them feel special, even if it's just to say 'same as yesterday' it's like they are waiting on a text.


----------



## daveb

Dave, I can only speak to this from my own experience with your work. A rehandle (with coupon), a couple Stefan installs, took longer than I expected but I'm patient, no communication from you until you posted pics on your forum of my finished knives. I don't think it would be stupid to drop a note saying you've received the work, you're starting the work, you've finished the work. Yes it would be comforting - I'm sure people aren't sending off their Tojiro's for you to work your magic on.


----------



## Godslayer

I think theres some good ideas here, the main thing is communication and maybe rethink the holding peoples knives thing, I can understand having a few on back, but if you've got more then a months on hand it isn't necessary and would avoid many headaches


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

NTXT


----------



## Nemo

I think it's worth saying that my experience with Dave (2 knives, one custom ordered, one pre-made) has been quite different. There was prompt communication and I was kept up to date with progress. I receved both knives quicker than I expected and the finished product was very good in both cases.

I'm not trying to diminish the issues that other people have had, I'm really just noting that some peole have had very good experiences.


----------



## Nomsdotcom

Nemo said:


> I think it's worth saying that my experience with Dave (2 knives, one custom ordered, one pre-made) has been quite different. There was prompt communication and I was kept up to date with progress. I receved both knives quicker than I expected and the finished product was very good in both cases.
> 
> I'm not trying to diminish the issues that other people have had, I'm really just noting that some peole have had very good experiences.


Same with me Nemo, got one semi custom from Dave. Communication was timely and consistent. Knife was delivered as expected with very high level fit and finish as well as the nice little case. 
I was forward with my expectations, as Dave was with his timeline.
I've been meaning to write a full review of the petty. Unfortunately I don't use it enough to feel like I could give a comprehensive review at the moment. 
Just wanted to provide insight from the other side of the coin.

-Kevin


----------



## Obsidiank

Dave, I've been following your saga for a while and I want to help. I work in corporate finance and am also a small business owner. I'm going to post some ideas in this thread only because I think I'd like to hear from those who still have skin in the game. I don't know your whole financial situation but I know you're married and have children. To survive, your income has to be greater than your expense. I don't know if your wife works or if you have other sources of income beyond knife making. From what I've read in all these posts I'm going to break it down like this

Income
Standard Knives
Custom Knives
Sharpening (Paid)
Rehandles (Paid)

Expenses
Materials
Equipment
Life Support (Everything to keep the lights on)

Debt
Rehandle Coupons
Prepaid Custom Work

Order of Priority from your perspective

Standard Knives > Custom Knives > Sharpening (Paid) > Rehandles (Paid) > Anything prepaid

You used the prepaid money to fund your expenses but now everything is piled up. It only gets worst as your reputation has dwindled, you can no longer command the premium for your standard work. 

At this point to dig yourself out without filing bankruptcy, you need cash. The only things that generate cash are standard knives and immediate quick paid work.

So here's my suggestions, 

1. In a given month, how much in standard knives sales and quick paid work do you need to do to keep the lights on. Do that and sell those items and get the cash.
2. Look at all your custom work and figure out realistically how long it would take you to finish it all and create a timeline. If it's one a month, then its 12 a year. Send realistic estimates to everyone you still owe work to. People can be patient if they know what to expect.
3. Disregard all remaining rehandle coupons as debt. Reach out to anyone who has one and ask for debt forgiveness. I'm sure many people can attest to your situation and not hold you accountable. For those that do, create a refund plan and add that as a monthly expense. You don't have time do this work. 
4. For the immediate future, do not accept any more free work. God forbid someone can't get their free knife sharpening. 

You can sell additional custom work to generate cash but you can't be unrealistic about the timelines. 

Let me know if this is helpful, happy to discuss offline.


----------



## chinacats

Just a thought on the lifetime sharpening guarantee. It's an awesome deal for those who need it but others may feel like they're paying for something they won't use. I'm not saying to lower your prices but possibly tack on a premium of maybe 10% to add the service. Great deal for someone who doesn't sharpen and it can add to cash flow.


----------



## KCMande

My two cents (sense?)

I've been keeping an eye on this thread, I personally own a few knives from Mr. Martell. Some full customs, some pre made, a couple he posted as ready made available for sale. I am beyond happy with his work. I ordered a knife as a birthday present to myself, Dave said 6 months, it ended showing up about 15 months later. I was not upset even remotely because of the quality of work. He was also very responsive to any questions I ever had about time frame and very apologetic about said time frame increases. Never once was I upset about it because I understand that things in the real world take time to do. Once I received my knife I was so happy with it I no longer remotely cared about the wait because it was better than I expected.

I also own a few coupons for rehandles and some Hiro spas. I check in once in a while and ask how his list is asking to cash in on those coupons. He is very open with me about a time frame. I am personally in no rush for this work, and he tells me how long it will be and we both decide its best for me to hold on to my knives and wait for his back log to clear out.

Has this been a long on going process, yes. Am I upset about it? No.
I understand that work is work. Especially something on his level of craftsmanship. Maybe I'm just used to living in an area where 90% of our business is done in 3 months and everyone is too busy to get anything done when everyone has the capital to pay for the labor (example, I waited 6 months for my plumber to show up to fix leaks, drains, and faucets because we couldn't afford the over charge of "emergency service", I did however crash course learn some plumbing triage on the internet)

That being said I do understand people's frustration with long wait times, in fact I hope some of you do pull out of his list, especially the ones whom haven't paid him any money yet so I get bumped further up his list, because I am not about to stop doing business with Dave because of a wait. I don't stop going to my barber or my mechanic because they are busy, I just make an appointment and plan accordingly.

His sharpening service (which we have spoken about in length,also very helpful revealing trade secrets, again very communicative with me) is a large portion of his business, income and work load, the more time he spends sharpening and repairing our knives the less time he has to build a new one from essentially scratch ( yes he does stock removal, but that doesn't seem any easier to me than in house forging)

The man also has a family and personal issues. I don't want to speak for him, but we all should assume those things take priority over something so niche and frivolous as a kitchen knife.

You all need to remember that Dave helped build this very community that he is being attacked openly in too, how many of us would have ever even been on his list if it was not for this forum? Me personally, never would have ever known he existed in a time before social media and smart phones.
I'm starting to rant here so I will wrap it up,
I believe Dave is at the very least owed some respect and the benefit of the proverbial doubt here people that he is not receiving. The more time he spends responding to your complaints here the less time he has to get work done. As someone who gets down on themselves professionally when someone complains about their work, it's not productive or constructive to attack him here, I'm sure it just slows him down.

Dave, I wish you all the best and godspeed sir!


----------



## McMan

I’ve been dealing with Dave for a decade. Past handle work he’s done has exceeded expectations. I consider a long wait par for the course... I’ve got skin in the game at the moment, too. Long story short, I trust the guy.

I spent the last 20 mins putting together a couple paragraphs that now don’t need to go here… because KCMande beat me to the punch and made most of the points I was going to make. So, I’ll give his post above a big +1.

As to the other poster’s points about “debt forgiveness”, I don’t see this as a good ask or a good option at all. It’s a poison pill and a reputation killer to say the least. I can understand why people are grumpy or antsy, and am not sure what to add there… all I can say is that with past re-handle work, the outcome has exceeded my expectations _by a lot_ and all that cost was a little patience


----------



## WildBoar

great posts. obsidiank, that is a great way to condense a sound of continuing on (and I think Dave M does it for the most part, even if subconsciously). The one item is "to keep the lights on" is more for keeping a business afloat vs "keep a roof over your family's head and also keep the lights on". While that does not really change anything, it just shows a little more the overall importance, as this is not about keeping a business going per say -- it is about survival, which is even more critical.


----------



## milkbaby

Dave Martell said:


> I have customers asking when they can send in their knives for rehandling (claiming a rehandle coupon) and I have no idea what to tell them, I certainly can't say send it in in 2 yrs or I'll contact you in 2 yrs...ugh.



I have zero skin in the game, and I understand where you're coming from on the issue of prepaid rehandle coupons, as it doesn't look good to say that you'll contact them in 2, 3, or however many years down the line. I can see some people instantly demanding a refund. On the other hand, it's probably worse to have a customer send in their knife and not have it for another 2 or 3 years because then you'd not only have their money but their knives too. You might just have to suck it up and tell people to wait.

You may want to explain your health issues if needing to delay or put off people with rehandle coupons, as most people are more understanding with an explanation like that.


----------



## Namaxy

All;

I used to be a frequent contributor, but work changed that. I went from participant to basically a B/S/T lurker...logging in only to list or buy knives. But this rip on Dave bothers me deeply. It doesn't take much research to know he has some personal challenges. I give him some leeway on that. It doesn't take much to realize he has owned all of it. I give him some leeway on that. And only a dolt fails to realize he co-started this forum. A forum that got me into knives in the first place. Am I saying Dave is perfect, or has done all the right things during his struggles...no. But we are on this forum to exchange knowledge, stories, friendship and fellowship. Sorry, that sounds preachy and I don't mean it that way. I guess I just wish we would all support a man when he's down. I think Dave deserves that.


----------



## daveb

Like.

Wish we saw more of you Neal. And the V's.


----------



## bahamaroot

Namaxy said:


> All;
> 
> I used to be a frequent contributor, but work changed that. I went from participant to basically a B/S/T lurker...logging in only to list or buy knives. But this rip on Dave bothers me deeply. It doesn't take much research to know he has some personal challenges. I give him some leeway on that. It doesn't take much to realize he has owned all of it. I give him some leeway on that. And only a dolt fails to realize he co-started this forum. A forum that got me into knives in the first place. Am I saying Dave is perfect, or has done all the right things during his struggles...no. But we are on this forum to exchange knowledge, stories, friendship and fellowship. Sorry, that sounds preachy and I don't mean it that way. I guess I just wish we would all support a man when he's down. I think Dave deserves that.


You can give Dave all the leeway you want but I don't feel sorry for a man knowing his limitations yet still over selling his services.
And as far as the "health issues", that is no excuse for taking on more work than you can deliver. I am self employed too because of "health issues" as opposed to drawing a government check. The difference between Dave and I is I don't over sell my services, if for no other reason, BECAUSE I have health issues!
He took prepaid orders from customers because he needed cash knowing full well he already had a backlog that was growing out of control. That in itself was not doing business in good faith and doesn't deserve "some leeway". Letting a *PREPAID *backlog continue to grow knowing he couldn't possibly fulfill those orders in a timely fashion, even for a custom knife business, is unacceptable. And this isn't something that just started, it's been an ever growing problem for at least few years now. Sorry, but I have a tendency to look at situations more realistically.


----------



## chinacats

bahamaroot said:


> You can give Dave all the leeway you want but I don't feel sorry for a man knowing his limitations yet still over selling his services.
> And as far as the "health issues", that is no excuse for taking on more work than you can deliver. I am self employed too because of "health issues" as opposed to drawing a government check. The difference between Dave and I is I don't over sell my services, if for no other reason, BECAUSE I have health issues!
> He took prepaid orders from customers because he needed cash knowing full well he already had a backlog that was growing out of control. That in itself was not doing business in good faith and doesn't deserve "some leeway". Letting a *PREPAID *backlog continue to grow knowing he couldn't possibly fulfill those orders in a timely fashion, even for a custom knife business, is unacceptable. And this isn't something that just started, it's been an ever growing problem for at least few years now. Sorry, but I have a tendency to look at situations more realistically.



But somehow I'm guessing you're not waiting on work from Dave...


----------



## Dave Martell

I've been doing work all this past week on are pre-paid for orders. Things have been going good in this regard.

But unfortunately there's always something bad to report. The KKF trolls have followed me over to HomeButcher's IG page, and a few others, where they can have at me with free will. These boys have been banned here, blame me for it, or just want to grind an axe for whatever reason - like little social justice warriors of the kitchen knife world. This type of thing will certainly, eventually, effect my relationship with HB, and any other retailer who takes my knives on for sale, as well as my business and family.

I'm truly trying my best to get everything caught up but yet there's people actively working against this effort. I'm at a loss as to why. In my time a person would say something to someone and they'd either get punched in the face or work it out right then and there. Now days people get out their cell phone and type things that they would never dare say to someone's face directly. 

These boys haven't yet learned that life has a funny way of kicking you in the nuts sometimes and you can't always do a damn thing about it. I hope, as they grow up, that they never have anything bad happen to them, or have other people attack their livelihood for no better reason than they wanted to have some fun at another's expense. 

I also hope that karma doesn't visit their families because only then will they know the harm that their actions have caused. 

Regardless, I'm going to continue to press on as long as I can.

Dave


----------



## Mute-on

Best of luck to you Dave.


----------



## daveb

Dave Martell said:


> These boys have been banned here, blame me for it,



Dave, At risk of telling you something you already know, you have not caused anyone to be banned here, nor will you cause anyone to be banned here. Unfortunately there are some that cannot or will not abide by rules of good decorum here and in extreme cases they have to be asked to take there internet presence elsewhere. 

To us you're just the crusty old fart that started this place and now sits in his rocker on the front porch. Reminds me of my uncle


----------



## WildBoar

Dave, I am sorry to hear this (although sadly I am not surprised).

The HomeButcher is a great way for you to get an income stream so you can devote time to catching on the the prepaid work.

It is truly as_swipe behavior.


----------



## panda

armed with rock salt 12 gauge and a trucker hat


----------



## Dave Martell

You guys are funny! 

Thanks for the kind words and for cheering me up with some humor.


----------



## CrisAnderson27

I just want to say that I get where the customers are coming from here, but I also completely understand where Dave is coming from as well. Dave and I have had our differences in the past lol...but I know full well that we all get hit in the knees on occasion and have to catch up. In this strange little microcosm market we have here in the hand made kitchen knife world...they dynamics aren't always the same as in typical business, and both sides have to keep putting their best foot forward in order to work out issues. That's not an excuse for Dave, nor approbation for the people on Phil's IG who are bashing him. It's just a simple truth.

I myself have a couple of customers who've waited far, far too long. It happens, and while it's literally unacceptable (and I can say this of myself without hesitation)...all a business...and a man...can do is keep trying to catch up and keep taking it in the chin until they do. They've earned the punches, and hopefully their integrity will keep them going until they clear the debt.

Keep doing what you can Dave, and use the stress as a motivator, rather than letting it bring you down.

~ETA - This commentary was made based on a very rough understanding of the circumstances...but in a general sense it's valid regardless. I haven't read this entire thread...the last couple posts were shared to me from commentary made on Phil's IG feed.


----------



## Dave Martell

Thanks for chiming in Cris.


----------



## mille162

Dave,

I have received my knives back from you as you would not give me an estimated date nor would you give me an idea of where I was in "your list". It's been 18 months now since you originally received my knife, so I feel it's a reasonable request to ask for a refund for the two rehandle certificates I had purchased from you. Please advise on how you will be refunding that purchase.


----------



## brooksie967

mille162 said:


> Dave,
> 
> I have received my knives back from you as you would not give me an estimated date nor would you give me an idea of where I was in "your list". It's been 18 months now since you originally received my knife, so I feel it's a reasonable request to ask for a refund for the two rehandle certificates I had purchased from you. Please advise on how you will be refunding that purchase.



18... months.... damn


----------



## Dave Martell

mille162 said:


> Dave,
> 
> I have received my knives back from you as you would not give me an estimated date nor would you give me an idea of where I was in "your list". It's been 18 months now since you originally received my knife, so I feel it's a reasonable request to ask for a refund for the two rehandle certificates I had purchased from you. Please advise on how you will be refunding that purchase.




Ron,
I already addressed this issue in my last email correspondence with you....

A: Your coupons are still valid.


The stipulations that you agreed to when you purchased your coupons still apply.


----------



## mille162

Dave Martell said:


> Ron,
> I already addressed this issue in my last email correspondence with you....
> 
> A: Your coupons are still valid.
> 
> 
> The stipulations that you agreed to when you purchased your coupons still apply.



Dave, I waited 18 months, you didn’t do the work, you won’t reveal your “waitlist”, you won’t provide any dates for when the work will be done and now you won’t refund the certificates you aren’t completing? 

I am honestly running out of patience with you. You have until this Friday to offer me a solution (concrete date on when work will be done or a refund) or this will become a matter for the legal system.

You insult everyone here who sticks up for you and tries to help out the situation when you just go on an on with your delays and excuses...you can only make excuses for so long before we all get sick of it. Do the work now or refund my money. You have had my money for over 2 years and a God knows how many others. Do the right thing or we can let the courts (and PA AG office) decide what you should do. I’m trying to give you the chance to do the right thing on your own, so let’s see how honest you really are...


----------



## deleon

I've only been here a short while and I'm not one to post a bunch of stuff, but I read through this whole mess and there is enough drama here to start a soap opera. But, I have been in similar situations in my long life and even though I have no dog in this fight, I have been there. Oh yeah, I also own some Martell products! 

First thought, Dave has a talent, I can attest to this through his products I own. Quality, beautifully done and they have help up well over time. I have also sharpened many of his knives for a few others and have thought highly of all those knives, too.

Now, lots of advice here and a lot of it is valid in my opinion, but when I was in a similar situation I got some good advice from a wise person. Something like this. If you don't nip this right now, do what you can to make things right where you can and then just suck it up and tell everyone else, sorry, I can't deliver, period. Yes, maybe when things are going better if they still want work, maybe you can cut a deal, but right now you just need to end the drama. If you don't, people will be feeding on this post forever and this will never end. People are alligators, they love this stuff. You still have a lot of loyal folks who will help you rebuild. Yes, you will piss off a lot of others and they will trash talk you for a while. But, what is the one thing you know for sure? It's that the work you do is excellent, so get back to square one, perfectly clean slate and take your first new order, then using what you learned from this, keep it on track. If you do it right you will come out on top, if you go back to where you were , well, then you need to get out. It won't be pleasant but it will take a lot of the stress off, show you the light and give you an attainable end goal. In a year this could all be behind you and you could be moving forward, but if not, then this thread will just continue on, eating at you forever. Just my $.02 for what it's worth. Oh yeah, in my true story, I told everyone, sorry, changed the name of my business and started over because I believed my lessons learned would see me through a new venture. It did, for five years of success and a lucrative sale so I could pursue other things. You can do this and you have the product to do it with. It's not like you make junk and try to peddle it. Good luck!


----------



## mille162

Well, lots of people are GIVING advice and GIVING their input, and thats very nice and supportive of the community. The problem is the only thing Dave is giving is excuses. I have yet to hear anyone post that they got their rehandle done recently, and Ive got a bunch of private messages of others who have also not been able to use their certificates. Dave has “no time” to complete all this work he presold years ago but he has plenty of time to monitor and post on the forum updates on NOT doing the work. He can make new and custom knives and sell those. He even posted a while back about using the certificates for up to 50% of the purchase his ready made knives (which I’m sure was heavily in his favor financially to do so).

The right thing is for him to admit he’s in over his head (he did), and the update his customers where they stand in a list (he’s stated he won’t), offer a refund to those who won’t wait (he refuses to), and stop taking in new work till he completes the work he’s been paid for already (he’s still taking custom orders and building his own brand knives).

I’m really glad you got a nice Martell brand knife and are happy with it. Everytime you use it, remind yourself that the price you paid included $100’s of dollars of other customers money who got ripped-off by Dave so he could work on his brand and sell his own product.

Enough advice and input, the only response here that matters is Daves. Clock is ticking Dave, refund by Friday or the legal system gets involved. Based on the personal messages I’ve been getting from your other victims, I’m sure you’re looking at a significant problem on your hands!


----------



## deleon

mille162 said:


> The right thing is for him to admit he’s in over his head (he did), and the update his customers where they stand in a list (he’s stated he won’t), offer a refund to those who won’t wait (he refuses to), and stop taking in new work till he completes the work he’s been paid for already (he’s still taking custom orders and building his own brand knives).


Even though I don't have the same frustration I do understand yours, anyone should. It sucks to make an investment and lose it for sure. So, each of you needs to do what is best for you, my advice was not for those who have lost in these deals but maybe an option for some to be made right, some to be very mad, but in the end, an end to it all with closure for everyone, good or bad.

He admitted he was in over his head .... how to get out? Start over, square one. 
Customer list? I agree, total transparency is fair in a situation like this, at least then, people could decide to wait or not, then he would know just how deep the refund situation is.
Refund? Yeah, not likely, not until there is enough to pay the bills at home and feed the family. Customers just don't come before family, ever.
Still taking orders and making brand knives, yeah, can't stop that, it feeds the kids. The new orders and brand knives are not the problem for him, that is his start to control and manage to be successful. What is needed is resolution and closure on everything in the past from today back, whether good or bad. Only then can things move forward and begin to turn positive.


----------



## Migraine

Yeah, I'm all for supporting people and I feel for Dave to an extent but this is totally and utterly out of hand.

You can't expect people who have ALREADY PAID for work to be done to sit idly by and watch as new stuff is being made and sold. Your first priority should be to the people whose money you have. You can't expect to take their money, spend it, then say "sorry I can't do what you've paid me for until I earn some more money doing other stuff". It's a ridiculous expectation to place on customers.

I don't have the solution - and to be honest I wonder if you are already too far gone for it to be salvageable - but the situation is totally unacceptable and I'd imagine you'll be in a pretty sticky legal position if (or more likely when) people's patience finally runs out and they go that route.

It's all well and good saying you've had struggles, and people jumping to your defence to corroborate that and say what a great guy you are, but I'm sure there are customers on your list who've had struggles and wish they had a bit of extra money but instead it's been and gone through your hands and they didn't even get what they paid for.

IDK, I don't mean to be a dick but what you're doing is just not OK.

EDIT:



> Refund? Yeah, not likely, not until there is enough to pay the bills at home and feed the family. Customers just don't come before family, ever.



I can't imagine the legal system agreeing.


----------



## WildBoar

His first priority is to keep a roof over his family. That has been made clear. That cannot be done with money from 2-3 years ago, as that money is gone. The new knives provide that money.

He is working to dig himself out of a hole. He will not stop producing new work and switch over to previously-paid work until he can afford to do so financially. His back is against the wall, and he is in survival mode.

Yes, it sucks for people who have money out there, as you worked to earn that money and there is no timeframe for seeing the results of it. And it may have been a struggle to accumulate those funds in the first place. But you can yell, scream, sue, etc., and it will not keep him from doing what he needs to do for his family to survive. Hell, he could declare bankruptcy, and get out of any obligations to those who prepaid. But he isn't.

No one thinks that this situation does not suck for Dave, his family, and all of those who sent him money. He is picking the path that has the shortest timeframe for getting back on solid ground, which is making new knives to sell. It is fully understandable that those who are waiting on product/ services they already paid for 2-3 years ago are pissed, but the real question is do you ever want to have a hope in seeing your money or the product, or do you want to work to force him to shut it down, legally get out of his obligations, and start up a new debt-free operation?

My 'skin in the game' is minimal -- 2 rehandle coupons i bought about 5 years ago. But I did not have any knives I needed done at the time, so I did not send him anything other then the coupon money. Once he had to relocate his family form the Redding area I did not bother sending him any knives as it was clear he needed to spend time reestablishing a shop space and trying to get his head above water.


----------



## Anton

some deep mud


----------



## WildBoar

That post was not in his defense. It basically outlines where he is at. What lead to this point is too late to prevent; it is more about how he can work out of it while eventually fulfilling his obligations to everyone.


----------



## deleon

WildBoar, you're right, it's not really about anyone, it's a business gone wrong. It's obvious the work won't get caught up, nor can refunds be made. If that was the case I'm pretty sure it would have happened. It's been said many times, there is no money and new work generating income is needed to survive. Most of us have been in a bad place in our lives at sometime, digging out can be painful and hard. My point, well suggestion based on personal experience, was to just cut the losses, let the beasts come after you whether legally, verbally, whatever, it will probably be relatively short lived. Continuing as is, it appears this had been going on almost two years, it will never stop until there are some finality statements. If people want to wait and hope for a couple more years, cool, but at least they know, so they may be pleasantly surprised in the end. For the ones that want to say "F" you and get it out of their system, good, let them get it out and move on. Then there will be peace, less stress at some point and all energy can be diverted to maintaining and moving forward with the business, not making the same mistakes again.


----------



## WildBoar

very well said.


----------



## panda

i'm still baffled that people would even pre-pay for unspecified 'in the future' handle work. the whole coupon system is nuts to me, i mean look at where it's lead to..


----------



## WildBoar

This gets even better when a forum member decides to go to peoples' instagram feeds and start posting ****. What are you, 5 years old?


----------



## HRC_64

WildBoar said:


> This gets even better when a forum member decides to go to peoples' instagram feeds and start posting ****. What are you, 5 years old?



This thread is well intentioned, but I almost wonder if it's just feeding these trolls.


----------



## deleon

WildBoar said:


> This gets even better when a forum member decides to go to peoples' instagram feeds and start posting ****. What are you, 5 years old?


That is sad, but like I said, until there is a clear line drawn in the sand the beasts will stalk their prey. Sure, they will still continue for a while after the line is drawn but eventually will realize that all they're doing is wasting their time. Until then they will feed on the drama, today everyone loves good drama as long as it's not pointed at them


----------



## vlad

QUOTE: "I'm still baffled that people would even pre-pay for unspecified 'in the future' handle work."

I'm not. I see similar things happening all the time. More than 150,000 projects have been funded on Kickstarter. Some of those projects panned out and shipped usable products; others didn't. It's always funny to see Kickstarter investors with their panties in a knot when some venture fails. That's the nature of the beast. Nothing is guaranteed. And although ordering a custom knife or a re-handle should not be quite as risky, I believe that anyone who orders a product from a one-person artisan shop of any persuasion, has to do so with the understanding that the transaction carries some amount of risk (or else they are quite naive). Why did folks buy coupons? Several reasons: perhaps "getting a deal," perhaps wanting to help a forum member/maker raise funds. Dave is not the first craftsperson on this forum to run into a rough spot. At least he's still here and talking with us. Others left, never to be heard from. As to contacting the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office – give me a break. I used to ride a high horse until I got knocked off a few times. Now I mostly walk up to folks, look them in the eye and try to understand what's going on.


----------



## mille162

Well, it's now past the deadline, and no refund from Dave. I'm not "riding a high horse", I'm a pissed-off consumer. I honestly believe Dave never intended to complete all the work he was selling coupons for. He needed money, he offered a coupon to get some quick money to pay his bills. I didn't know of or have any reason to ever reach out to Dave or his business, BUT based on his involvement and support of this forum, I trusted him and purchased these coupons. He will not update me with how big his list is, where in his list I am, or when I might realistically get my work completed. Several years since purchase, 18 months since getting my knife in his hands, and he "reserves the right to complete work at his discretion". Although he states my coupons are valid and will still be honored, he won't tell me when, or offer any reassurances it will be in the reasonable future.

I don't know Dave personally, didn't agree to give him a donation or charity support. He didn't disclose any medical issues or other problems on why the redemption of these coupons might have issues. He has bills like the rest of us, and I see no reason why anyone here is giving him special treatment. He chooses to not have a job, and chooses to have his own business. He posts pics of a workshop he paid for with OUR money. In the last year, he has posted over 91 photos of knives for sale with the MARTELL brandname that he built with OUR money, a brand he was able to develop and buy supplies for with OUR money. Seems to me he has plenty of time to build custom knives from scratch (including custom handles) in the hopes of selling for $, but no time to do simple handles he's already been paid for. THIS IS FRAUD. There is no other way to look at this. Dave took our money in the commercial interest of being self sufficient and running his own business and when he wasn't able to do that, he sold coupons to raise money. This practice is against the law. There is no excuse for it. "Supporting his family" is not an excuse for breaking the law, and we're only seeing a small snippet of Dave's business/practices here on the forum. Say what you want but you don't know about any of his other business dealings, interaction on other forums, of how many people he's sold coupons to or how much money he's taken in. He built a website for MARTELL KNIVES (domain registered as private, 12/9/17)

Moderator Edit: Personal content deleted. Don't go there again. DB

I felt bad in the beginning but the personal attitude of Dave, how he's treated me and responded to my emails and requests for updates, and his posts here have transformed my pity to anger. He's making a fool of all of us here, and laughing as he sits there with our money funding his projects.

I'm done giving him the benefit of doubt. Anyone of his supporters wants to help him out some more, I've got 2 of his coupons you can purchase for $125 each from me. In the meantime, any other customers can DM me to learn how to submit your name and unused coupon(s) to the legal complaint as I seek every legal avenue available to get my money back and stop him from ripping off others.


----------



## vlad

Dear Ron (AKA mile 162):

I would be happy to purchase your two coupons from you. Please PM me your Paypal address. While I don't have any knives that need rehandling right now, I'm sure that I will in the future.


----------



## Dave Martell

vlad said:


> Dear Ron (AKA mile 162):
> 
> I would be happy to purchase your two coupons from you. Please PM me your Paypal address. While I don't have any knives that need rehandling right now, I'm sure that I will in the future.




Be advised, Ron paid *$100* each _(not $125 that he's asking)_ for his rehandle coupons.


----------



## mille162

Dave Martell said:


> Be advised, Ron paid *$100* each _(not $125 that he's asking for)_ for his rehandle coupons.



Well Dave, Its been 3 years since my purchase, my google search turned up your posts at $125 each so thats the price I had to go off.

Paypal only lets you go back 2 years and my emails with you show a purchase of the coupon 7/7/2015.

Just did a mailbox search to find the receipt for Vlad and your actual store receipt shows coupons purchased at $125 each, and then a discount of $25 per coupon applied for “Buy 2 or more” promotion. 

Vlad, thank you for your generous offer of bailing Dave out, you’ve got a DM with the details and pic of the receipt.


----------

