# Idea for simplifying installation of ready made WA handles



## icanhaschzbrgr (May 30, 2014)

Here's the problem that I'm trying to solve: custom handles that comes with just a pilot hole are a pain to install for users who don't have appropriate tools and experience.

Japanese traditional method of burning handles doesn't work with custom handles (well it may work for some of them, but not for all). 

So my idea is to create few tang templates with different sizes. 5-10 different tangs that should represent most common tang sizes. Then we could try to create an open database of matches between those templates and real knives. 

For example there would be tang template &#8470;1 which is big tang that should more or less much Shigefusa gyuto's tangs. 
Template &#8470;2 could represent much thinner but still long Konosuke tangs.
And so on.

Those template tangs then should be forged so that any handle maker out there could order a set. 

Now the benefit begins: with those templates and database of matching knives it would be possible to create handle that should have more or less proper fit from the beginning. So end user would just add some epoxy and he's done. 

... 

Benefit!

Hope you got the idea. What do you think? Any interest?


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## Pensacola Tiger (May 30, 2014)

A better idea might be to make a large internal cavity with a small hole in the end of the ferrule that just has to be opened to fit the tang. I believe one of our handle makers has been doing this for years.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (May 30, 2014)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> A better idea might be to make a large internal cavity with a small hole in the end of the ferrule that just has to be opened to fit the tang. I believe one of our handle makers has been doing this for years.



I don't think "one hole fits all" is the best solution. Some tangs are just huge while others are pretty small, but with "one hole fits all" you'd be forced to make a huge hole even if there's no need to. Dunno, imho it's easier for maker but worse for end user


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## Pensacola Tiger (May 30, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> I don't think "one hole fits all" is the best solution. Some tangs are just huge while others are pretty small, but with "one hole fits all" you'd be forced to make a huge hole even if there's no need to. Dunno, imho it's easier for maker but worse for end user



I don't understand your objection. The hole is not seen by the end user, and the epoxy fills the excess space. The slot in the end of the ferrule is opened just enough to accept the tang and there aren't any gaps. I have several handles made in this fashion and there are no problems.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (May 30, 2014)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> I don't understand your objection. The hole is not seen by the end user, and the epoxy fills the excess space. The slot in the end of the ferrule is opened just enough to accept the tang and there aren't any gaps. I have several handles made in this fashion and there are no problems.



Besides some technical issues that might arise with smaller tapered handles, I don't like that idea in general. It's basically removing more material than it's necessary. And user would still need to shape slot for his tang. It's a pilot hole on steroids, but not the solution I'm aiming for.

To me handles for blade are more or less the same to what glove is for hand. You don't burn your hands into gloves, nor adjust them with needle and threads, instead you'd get gloves of your size. Not the best metaphor but describes more or less my idea.


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## apicius9 (May 30, 2014)

If you find a perfect solution, please let us know.  I agree, the better we could make the handles to fit from the beginning, the better overall. But that really works only if you have the knife on hand. I often make the handles without knowing what knife they will go on, so having an internal slot oversized to accommodate tangs of any size is the best I could come up with. I agree, it also makes my life a little easier than a precision fit, but that is not the main reason for doing it that way. The other problem you run into is the inconsistency of tangs. Even from the same maker and the same knife, they can be different - if you talk about forged knives like Watanabe, Shigefusa etc. Takeda tangs can be less than half the size of a Watanabe tang for the same size knife. Tang can also be twisted or bent. So, sometimes it makes more sense to hammer or grind the tang a bit rather than change the slot on the handle. 

Not trying to be too negative, I would be the first one to jump on your system if it works. Just saying that there are a number of variables you will need to juggle. 

Stefan


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## Pensacola Tiger (May 30, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Besides some technical issues that might arise with smaller tapered handles, I don't like that idea in general. It's basically removing more material than it's necessary. And user would still need to shape slot for his tang. It's a pilot hole on steroids, but not the solution I'm aiming for.
> 
> To me handles for blade are more or less the same to what glove is for hand. You don't burn your hands into gloves, nor adjust them with needle and threads, instead you'd get gloves of your size. Not the best metaphor but describes more or less my idea.



I wish you all the best. I think there is too much variation in the sizes of tangs to be feasible, but you may prove me wrong.


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## mkriggen (May 30, 2014)

Another thing you might not have considered is the effect on price. Making a perfect tang slot is one of the most difficult things to do when making/fitting a custom wa handle, and thats using an oversized internal void that extends to within 6-10mm of the end of the ferrule. It is also the most likely point of failure. It would only have to be slightly off to make the handle unsalable. An additional problem is that once slotted, the handle would only be good for the same size or larger tang. This would come into play if the customer returned the handle. For these reasons I would have to charge significantly more if I were to preslot my handles (most of the price of a handle is for the labor, not the materials). I think the practice Stefen cited (oversized internal void with a centered pilot hole) is still the best compromise. It allows the customer to install the handle him/herself with a minimum of tools, or they can send the blade to someone that will do it for them. I would end up adding the equivalent of an install fee anyway if I were to preslot the handle. Hope this makes sense Anton, not trying to bag on ya, just trying to be clear (and hoping I dont get a nastygram from the mods for this post:angel2: ).

Be well my friend,
Mikey


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## icanhaschzbrgr (May 31, 2014)

Good arguments so far!

How can one use dowel design for additional stability and have a larger hole inside the handle at the same time? Logic suggests that dowel needs to be at least a bit larger than that hole. But that means that for smaller handles you'd basically has a large empty zone covered with thin wall of wood around it. Or do I miss something? 

Probably I would need to buy one of handles from Stefan or Mikey to get an idea how it actually works


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## mkriggen (May 31, 2014)

Actually, I have a cross section of how I do it. This would be looking down at the top of the handle (or up at the bottom, but nobody ever looks up)-





Hope this helps,
Mikey


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## icanhaschzbrgr (May 31, 2014)

Hm Mikey, the picture is awesome way of showing how things works, however I still don't understand how it supposed to work.

Such construction should have good sturdiness but it still require manual fitting of tang later and I don't see how this design makes installation even a bit easier. Maybe I just don't understand the real scale of things from picture.


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## apicius9 (May 31, 2014)

I don't have a cross-cut to show, but imagine Mikey's handle bjt with the dowel not going all the way too the bottom, just bridging the connection of the two different wood pieces. That means you will still have to file open the slot to fit the tang but not as deep into the handle. 

Stefan


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## mkriggen (May 31, 2014)

Correct, you still have to slot the end of the ferrule, but that's only about 6-10mm thick. Using a split 1/2" (~12mm) dowel reinforces the joint and minimizes the volume of the internal void (I have yet to see a tang wider then 1/2"). Since even my smallest handles start out as a 3/4" (~19mm) wide blank I can use this construction method on all of them.

Be well,
Mikey


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