# Hatsukokoro Yoake impressions?



## dAtron (Nov 17, 2022)

For those of you who have one what are your impressions. How does it compare to other workhorses like Toyama etc?


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## itzjustchris1 (Nov 21, 2022)

I’ll answer this question once I receive the Yoake kiritsuke that I purchased.


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## Corradobrit1 (Nov 21, 2022)

The only thing really holding me back is the reported hardness. Doesn't seem like they are pushing the full potential of B#1. Looking forward to hearing a few real world experiences


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## itzjustchris1 (Nov 21, 2022)

Corradobrit1 said:


> The only thing really holding me back is the reported hardness. Doesn't seem like they are pushing the full potential of B#1. Looking forward to hearing a few real world experiences


No need to worry if the Yoake line is forged by Nakagawa but there's so little info about the knife line.


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## blokey (Nov 21, 2022)

itzjustchris1 said:


> No need to worry if the Yoake line is forged by Nakagawa but there's so little info about the knife line.


The distal taper really doesn’t look Nakagawa to me.


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## tostadas (Nov 21, 2022)

I've had a bunch of ppl reach out to me with similar question about this line, so I'll just copy paste some of the stuff here.

I have 2, one in 240 and one in 210. They have similarities in construction, but big differences in performance.

The key feature is the spine. The 240 has over 7mm at handle, 5mm+ at handle, like 2.3 mid, and 0.9 tip. Out of the box, I noticed immediate similarities to my old school mazaki. The grind looks to be done with a big wheel, so it has a high shinogi with slight concave. It feels very similar to the Hatsukokoro Komorebi, if you've tried one. One thing about my 240 is that it came with a super thick edge out of the box. I consider around 0.20mm to be typical, 0.25mm on the thicker side, and 0.30mm needing some thinning. Mine came with 0.45mm behind the edge, and required significant amount of work to establish a proper bevel. It feels like a workhorse in that regard. Steel feels quite hard on the stones, and the finish is a step above sandblast with a sort of brushed blade road.

In contrast to the 240, my 210 grind was extremely thin. Same sort of slight concave up to shinogi, but actually ground down to the edge, so it's very fine behind the edge, with a super beefy spine. The profile however on the 210 had a bit of recurve at the heel which required me to take time to reprofile to correct. I'm making this one my current project knife. I see a lot of potential.

Overall thoughts based on these 2 examples, I think it's safe to say you can expect some degree of variation in the grind. Neither of mine was what I consider good to go out of the box. The spine is really awesome though. For the price I paid which was just over $300, I think still it's an amazing deal. For the steel treatment and forged taper, it's worth the price already.


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## superworrier (Nov 21, 2022)

If anything is going to convince me it's by Mazaki, it's gonna be the inconsistent grind.


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## tostadas (Nov 21, 2022)

superworrier said:


> If anything is going to convince me it's by Mazaki, it's gonna be the inconsistent grind.


I originally thought maybe mazaki cuz of the taper, but now I really don't think so. I mean there's at least a second step of finishing on these with the lengthwise polish, so in theory that could cover things up, if they were rough ground by mazaki. But the kind of concave on these don't seem at all like what I've seen on any mazaki. Much more similar to what I've seen from various Sakai knives. And the cutting profile is similar to the few Nakagawa knives I've had.


Corradobrit1 said:


> The only thing really holding me back is the reported hardness. Doesn't seem like they are pushing the full potential of B#1. Looking forward to hearing a few real world experiences


With regard to hardness, the core steel on these is really hard. The cladding is very soft but the the core is very resistant to many of my stones almost like tf white1
.


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## superworrier (Nov 21, 2022)

tostadas said:


> I originally thought maybe mazaki cuz of the taper, but now I really don't think so. I mean there's at least a second step of finishing on these with the lengthwise polish, so in theory that could cover things up, if they were rough ground by mazaki. But the kind of concave on these don't seem at all like what I've seen on any mazaki. Much more similar to what I've seen from various Sakai knives. And the cutting profile is similar to the few Nakagawa knives I've had.
> 
> With regard to hardness, the core steel on these is really hard. The cladding is very soft but the the core is very resistant to many of my stones almost like tf white1
> .


Yeah, true. Concave is not Mazaki at all.


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## dAtron (Nov 21, 2022)

From what I keep hearing, it is significantly cheaper in the states than in the Uk and to me it's not worth what they are charging, over here. Especially if it needs work out the box to cut well.


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## Hamesjo (Nov 22, 2022)

Just received mine today in 240mm, was happy to see that it differs a bit from Tostadas' sample where this one is very nicely thin behind the edge. Thinner than any Maz I've had out of the box actually, and they have very similar thick spines at the heel with aggressive taper. 
Came with an awful edge so excited to feel the core steel's feedback on stones tonight. 
Also was pleasantly surprised with the bevel polish, brighter core than I was expecting


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## Hamesjo (Nov 22, 2022)

I want to alter the profile just slightly, as it came with that dead spot at the heel that jams everything up. But overall the profile feels like what a Y. Tanaka would be with extra heel height which is one of the reasons I was intrigued in the first place


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## dAtron (Nov 22, 2022)

So I found a great deal in the sates and mine is on the way too. I will also share my thoughts once I use it.


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## itzjustchris1 (Nov 22, 2022)

dAtron said:


> So I found a great deal in the sates and mine is on the way too. I will also share my thoughts once I use it.


Homebutcher with the black friday code. Can’t complain with the price.


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## Gregmega (Nov 23, 2022)

The finish reminds me of the Morehei Tanaka (Tsubaya??) ku that were floating around a few years ago tbh. With exception of the spine thickness out of the handle, I could be fooled.


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## JoBone (Nov 23, 2022)

The distal taper really doesn’t look Nakagawa to me.

Hatsukokoro will not disclose the name of the blacksmith due to their tricky relationship. I take this as a reason smiths like Nakagawa, which they do disclose, don’t make the cut.


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## zizirex (Nov 23, 2022)

could be Masashi, could be Tosa Blacksmith (Tadayoshi, Zakuri etc). I don't think it's Sakai blacksmith who forges it.


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## GorillaGrunt (Nov 24, 2022)

The question isn’t whether they’re made by Mazaki, but rather which disguise Mazaki is wearing when he makes them.


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## M1k3 (Nov 24, 2022)

GorillaGrunt said:


> The question isn’t whether they’re made by Mazaki, but rather which disguise Mazaki is wearing when he makes them.


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## itzjustchris1 (Nov 24, 2022)

Just received my Kiritsuke Yoake today and damn! I can’t complain for how much I paid for it. This knife reminds me of my Nakagawa Ginsan Kiritsuke wide bevel. Debating on doing a handle swap on it. The knife is pretty thin behind the edge and it’s sharp.


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## madmotts (Dec 14, 2022)

A migaki version of Yoake (non wide bevel) just landed from homebutcher and it's sweet. Very similar to the damascus komorebi thin version that i have- beast out of the handle and substantial taper. Spine could use a bit of smoothing.


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## Duukt (Dec 14, 2022)

I just received the migaki version and the spine seems to have a kurouchi finish on it. Are these just kurouchi versions of the knife re-ground to the migaki edition?


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## itzjustchris1 (Dec 14, 2022)

Duukt said:


> I just received the migaki version and the spine seems to have a kurouchi finish on it. Are these just kurouchi versions of the knife re-ground to the migaki edition?


I think they are really Migaki because i’ve seen the same knife posted up as Miura knives last week.


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## kpham12 (Dec 14, 2022)

madmotts said:


> A migaki version of Yoake (non wide bevel) just landed from homebutcher and it's sweet. Very similar to the damascus komorebi thin version that i have- beast out of the handle and substantial taper. Spine could use a bit of smoothing.
> 
> View attachment 214048
> 
> View attachment 214047


Is the grind still concave on this one?


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## tostadas (Dec 14, 2022)

kpham12 said:


> Is the grind still concave on this one?


Depends on the one you get. I got a 210 and 240 migaki to compare with my ku versions. I think they all have some concavity, but the extent varies.


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## Duukt (Dec 14, 2022)

tostadas said:


> Depends on the one you get. I got a 210 and 240 migaki to compare with my ku versions. I think they all have some concavity, but the extent varies.


My migaki 240 is convex throughout but will check again in daylight.


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## kpham12 (Dec 14, 2022)

tostadas said:


> Depends on the one you get. I got a 210 and 240 migaki to compare with my ku versions. I think they all have some concavity, but the extent varies.


Dang, 4 Yoakes. Is the one you’re thinning still concave or are the bevels flat by now?


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## tostadas (Dec 14, 2022)

Duukt said:


> My migaki 240 is convex throughout but will check again in daylight.


My 210 migaki is well convexed, the 240 migaki is convex at the edge, with a bit of concavity further up the grind. The 210 ku also is convex at the edge and concave higher. My 240 ku was concave but super fat but there's enough material for me to regrind it to be convex if I decide to go that route..


kpham12 said:


> Dang, 4 Yoakes. Is the one you’re thinning still concave or are the bevels flat by now?


Haha yea I really like this line a lot. Despite all the stuff I say about inconsistency. Similar to how I think tf f&f is terrible but the knives are still great. The yaoke f&f is still better than tf. I haven't taken the knife all the way up the shinogi yet on my 240, mainly focusing behind the edge for now. Still deciding how much effort I want to put in.

Here's a copy of those photos of thinning progress I uploaded on the other thread. I forgot to take a "before" photo.


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## jedy617 (Dec 14, 2022)

You guys are lucky, your choil shots are all thinner than my k tip gyuto. Maybe k tip is not the way to go?


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## jedy617 (Dec 14, 2022)

Here's a good shot of mine. Not super thick but def not as thin as yours. Probably on the thicker side of medium? Can't complain that much for the price, and it does have a 7mm spine. Near the tip does feel thin tho.


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## Duukt (Dec 14, 2022)

I'm not great at choil shots and it's dim in my kitchen but here it is.


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## tostadas (Dec 14, 2022)

jedy617 said:


> Here's a good shot of mine. Not super thick but def not as thin as yours. Probably on the thicker side of medium? Can't complain that much for the price, and it does have a 7mm spine. Near the tip does feel thin tho.


My thick one was wider than that out of the box. Yours looks not bad. If that's representative of the entire length of the edge, you can simply thin and convex the edge a bit and you'll have a sweet workhorse.


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## itzjustchris1 (Dec 14, 2022)

jedy617 said:


> You guys are lucky, your choil shots are all thinner than my k tip gyuto. Maybe k tip is not the way to go?


My K-tip is thin maybe just the one you got isn’t as thin.


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## Duukt (Dec 14, 2022)

Couple more pictures. The spine feels exactly like a kurouchi finish.


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## jedy617 (Dec 14, 2022)

itzjustchris1 said:


> My K-tip is thin maybe just the one you got isn’t as thin.View attachment 214123


Damn I gotta call phil from homebutcher up....


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## timebard (Dec 14, 2022)

I'll just add to the thread that I got a KU 240 Yoake at a great price from Homebutcher over Thanksgiving. Unfortunately the one I picked up was pretty obviously bent, beyond what I'd try to fix myself. And while it was really thick at the neck, it tapered quite fast to a kinda normal midweight spine by an inch or two past the choil. Definitely not a gradual/continuous distal taper that would make it feel like a serious workhorse.

That said, Phil was great about accepting the return - no fault on the seller side, but add one to the inconsistent/wabi sabi side of the ledger.


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## jedy617 (Dec 14, 2022)

tostadas said:


> My thick one was wider than that out of the box. Yours looks not bad. If that's representative of the entire length of the edge, you can simply thin and convex the edge a bit and you'll have a sweet workhorse.


Yeah true. Gotta decide if I make a project out of it or pass it along. I am very impressed with the kasumi on it tho, and it's a nice profile.


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## madmotts (Dec 16, 2022)

Been assessing the migaki 210 and decided I "needed" the 240. Hoping mine will have something like choil on @itzjustchris1 copy. There's still at least one left with Homebutcher with the promo...


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## jedy617 (Dec 16, 2022)

madmotts said:


> Been assessing the migaki 210 and decided I "needed" the 240. Hoping mine will have something like choil on @itzjustchris1 copy. There's still at least one left with Homebutcher with the promo...


You want mine for cheap?


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## More_Gyutos (Dec 16, 2022)

I didn’t think the promo was good anymore? I could not get it to wor.


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## madmotts (Dec 16, 2022)

jedy617 said:


> You want mine for cheap?


Damn I should’ve asked. The Endofyear22 promo works but it’s not as good the previous sale.


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## More_Gyutos (Dec 17, 2022)

Since I’m already off the rails this monh, might as well take advantage of the code and get two Yoakes, amiright?


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## Duukt (Dec 17, 2022)

Is anyone able to speculate who made this blade? Seems to be someone good.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 17, 2022)

Duukt said:


> Couple more pictures. The spine feels exactly like a kurouchi finish.
> 
> View attachment 214121
> View attachment 214122


What is up with that spine? If you put a straight edge against it is there a noticeable gap? Or is it the drastic DT close to the handle that the pic is highlighting?

Personally I think these start out as Ku and then get refinished to Migaki, but they forgot to do the spines.


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## itzjustchris1 (Dec 17, 2022)

madmotts said:


> Been assessing the migaki 210 and decided I "needed" the 240. Hoping mine will have something like choil on @itzjustchris1 copy. There's still at least one left with Homebutcher with the promo...



I also wanted to buy the Migaki version but get the Gyuto this time. Then I told myself that I spent too much already this year and accumulated about 30+ knives starting from early of this year on the month of January.


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## madmotts (Dec 18, 2022)

overstating the obvious but after removing the lacquer it (migaki version) performed even better.


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## GorillaGrunt (Dec 18, 2022)

tostadas said:


> My 210 migaki is well convexed, the 240 migaki is convex at the edge, with a bit of concavity further up the grind. The 210 ku also is convex at the edge and concave higher. My 240 ku was concave but super fat but there's enough material for me to regrind it to be convex if I decide to go that route..
> 
> Haha yea I really like this line a lot. Despite all the stuff I say about inconsistency. Similar to how I think tf f&f is terrible but the knives are still great. The yaoke f&f is still better than tf. I haven't taken the knife all the way up the shinogi yet on my 240, mainly focusing behind the edge for now. Still deciding how much effort I want to put in.
> 
> ...


Holy moly that’s like a Shihan or Kato


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## More_Gyutos (Dec 23, 2022)




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## More_Gyutos (Dec 23, 2022)

So the F&F is pretty rough as others have noticed. I have forge scale on my migaki as has been mentioned, my kurouchi finish looks pretty messy on the other side. Am I bothered? Nope, not at all, they are beasts and thin behind the edge, especially the K-tip. I need to weigh them but these might be my heaviest knives by a bit. Used the k-tip on some veg for a ragu. Factoring in the discount I got, I’m happy to have them.


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## Hamesjo (Dec 24, 2022)

Really enjoy the dimensions on my gyuto. The finish feels rustic across the board but not overly so. 
Less than a half hour on a coarse stone and almost all the low spots are ground out too.
What did surprise me a bit is how flexible the knife is. I really enjoy super stiff knives so this is the only aspect that I would gripe about


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## Duukt (Dec 24, 2022)

Mine weighed in at 271g and the oversized ebony handle isn't helping. Still doesn't feel unwieldy but I did use a zkramer a lot and that weighs in at 313g.

It's pretty rigid as knives go too so maybe there's some variation there as well.


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## madmotts (Dec 27, 2022)

My 240 migaki has landed. Haven’t tried it out but it’s looking NICE (choil). About 54.5mm tall and thin bte. The cladding line is 7mm high. 2nd image has the 210 after a few weeks of use. For the homebutcher promo, it’s awesome.


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## jedy617 (Dec 28, 2022)

The Yaoke line might be one of the most confusing and inconsistent knife lines ever. I told Phil that mine was quite thick and I wanted a thinner one, so he sent one off my way for a discount, and I decided I will either sell the thick one or use it as a project.

The new one is way thinner, like half the thickness (also looks a little asymmetric), and has a polished choil?? While the K tip doesn't have a polished choil at all. Both have KU on the spines. So weird. Whatever you do, don't expect this line to be consistent if you are buying. However....this thin one looks awesome, they have a great kasumi finish, and the ebony+marble horn handles are top notch, not sure if those are dealer installed tho. The thick one has a machi gap where my new one doesn't.


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## tostadas (Dec 28, 2022)

jedy617 said:


> The Yaoke line might be one of the most confusing and inconsistent knife lines ever. I told Phil that mine was quite thick and I wanted a thinner one, so he sent one off my way for a discount, and I decided I will either sell the thick one or use it as a project.
> 
> The new one is way thinner, like half the thickness (also looks a little asymmetric), and has a polished choil?? While the K tip doesn't have a polished choil at all. Both have KU on the spines. So weird. Whatever you do, don't expect this line to be consistent if you are buying. However....this thin one looks awesome, they have a great kasumi finish, and the ebony+marble horn handles are top notch, not sure if those are dealer installed tho. The thick one has a machi gap where my new one doesn't.
> 
> ...


Keep the thick one! Can always regrind it to a thin convex. That's my current project and after doing a quick test yesterday, it's gonna be good. I agree, the grinds are a mixed bag. And the handle I wouldn't call so much a Machi gap as just ghetto install.


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## jedy617 (Dec 28, 2022)

tostadas said:


> Keep the thick one! Can always regrind it to a thin convex. That's my current project and after doing a quick test yesterday, it's gonna be good. I agree, the grinds are a mixed bag. And the handle I wouldn't call so much a Machi gap as just ghetto install.


Yeah I thought it would be a perfect use to test my jnats on, plus I like the profile and the size, and heat treat seems to be good, just needs a little love and I can coax out the goodness from it


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