# Lack of confidence



## donhoang14 (Mar 22, 2017)

Hi all,

I'm having trouble feeling confident enough to sharpen knives myself instead of bringing them to a guy.

I have a cheap stone I bought 400/1000 and my goal is to build on this before I start investing into some more serious stuff. I read before on this forum that it's possible to get a pretty good job done on a 1000 grit stone. So I'm trying to focus on that but I've tried the many techniques I've read on this and viewed on youtube and nothing so far has come out the way I would expect from a 1000. It feels almost like I haven't done much. I take dull knives and don't really take them anywhere. I've tried a handful of times now to sharpen knives... maybe about 20 now.

Has anyone else out there had similar feelings when they started out?

Thanks for any support and advice!

Don


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## khashy (Mar 22, 2017)

Are you trying with stainless knives? If that's the case you should consider that stainless is much less fun/more cumbersome to sharpen than carbon. Specially cheap stainless


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## TheCaptain (Mar 22, 2017)

Raises hand and waves it wildly in the air.

Me ME MEEEEE! If you're working with really dull stainless you'll find it easier to break down the edge with a lower grit. 800 got me some traction and I was able to make progress from there. AND good Japanese knives are easier to get a decent edge on than stubborn german stainless...but if you're like me you will ignore all good advice and still practise on stainless anyway.

Did you try the sharpie trick? Remember to keep the angle constant (I try to remember two coins courtesy of Watanabe).


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## Pensacola Tiger (Mar 22, 2017)

Are you using a Magic Marker / Sharpie to color the edge and a loupe to see if you are actually hitting the edge? If you aren't, you are essentially "shooting in the dark" and have no way to evaluate what you are doing.

As _khashy_ wrote, cheap stainless is impossible to learn on. 

Starting your sharpening with the 1000 grit is for a knife that is still has some sharpness left. Dull knives should have a new bevel established and this is best done on the 400 grit.


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## Benuser (Mar 22, 2017)

As always, an excellent advice. Perhaps the use of pieces of cork or wood with a fixed inclination might be helpful. Just for reference, the exact value isn't that important. So you may verify if you're still working at 8 degrees or have reached 18 without being aware of it. 
Anyway, it was very helpful when I started. In combination with the marker trick of course.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 22, 2017)

Which "cheap 400/1000" stone?

There are nasty and/or hard to use stones (glazing and clogging issues, just plain slow) totally not good for beginners, and unfortunately many cheap ones match that description (expensive ones too - wouldn't wish the cho 400 on my worst enemy, if he's a beginner he'll be real angry if he is not he will have a very sharp knife  )


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## Benuser (Mar 22, 2017)

Use some pressure if you're far from the edge you're looking for and have only to thin and remove steel. Loosen when you're building the very edge.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 22, 2017)

@Benuser exactly what I've by now learned when it comes to hard stones... and his probably is


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## XooMG (Mar 22, 2017)

Dunno. When I read posts like this, I wonder if folks are trying to follow prescriptions without any intuition during the process. Start with the coarse stone and get a feeling for what it's doing to your edge. If it feels like you're tearing down the edge faster than bringing it together, try a few stropping-type (edge-trailing) strokes and see if that causes less damage. Try to figure out what the stone is doing to your edge, and what you might do to prevent it from breaking down.

If you can get a grabby burr from 400 and it feels sharp (do not bother with tests), don't try to remove the burr with wood right away. Try to refine it and get it as smooth and small as you can with the 400 and just try to figure out what is going on at your edge.

Jump to 1000, and keep using your eyes and your brain to figure out where things are getting better, and where they are getting worse. If you feel like you're&#8203; eating your edge too fast, try edge-trailing or use a drop of dish soap to enhance lubrication and reduce contact. If you're pulling a big burr, then figure out what you can do to reduce it without tearing your edge apart. Consider stropping on denim lightly loaded with some paste polish like flitz or autosol to see where your edge ends up after the stone work.

Most of all, be thoughtful to what you're doing, rather than focusing on what you read or saw to be good technique. The edge is right there, let it tell you what you're doing right and wrong.


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## GorillaGrunt (Mar 23, 2017)

XooMG said:


> Most of all, be thoughtful to what you're doing, rather than focusing on what you read or saw to be good technique. The edge is right there, let it tell you what you're doing right and wrong.



Yep. I started with a 1000 and European knives, German stainless and French carbon -- about 10 of them, not the same as cheap stainless, but also different from Japanese knives. None were very sharp. I did set new bevels with the 1000 grit and it took some time. The first time through about half came out duller so I did them again. I didn't dare try sharpening my new Japanese knife until I had gotten these right, because that was the one that absolutely needed to be sharper immediately after I took it to the stones.

Here's what helped:
-Being willing to do damage to the very first few knives I sharpened. As it turned out, I didn't do anything I couldn't fix with a little more time and research, but I was prepared to render one or more unusable until I could fix them or have them fixed.
-Being willing to burn up my first stones and plate learning how to sharpen.
-Trading time for risk, i.e. being willing to spend more time working slowly on a higher grit stone as opposed to risking removing too much metal on a coarser stone.
-Checking progress frequently, things like burrs, flatness, spot checking my angle with a ruler and triangle calculator (the angled wood or cork guides would have been a lot simpler). I should have had a loupe from the beginning, but :shrug:.

I only got a 400 grit after deciding to repair some older, duller, more used knives in worse condition that I just couldn't reasonably do on the 1000; I only got a 220 just now after wearing through about a quarter of my 400 getting into thinning and reprofiling. Not that this is "the right" way to do things, but it was the way that made me feel comfortable enough to do it. 

The hardest thing to get my mind around was that I would have to destroy the current edge and it wouldn't be usable until I got it right -- no such thing as stopping halfway and having it be halfway sharp. Maybe analogous to reinstalling an operating system, if you're the tech sort? Of course, once I have a good edge and good bevels it's easier to maintain them, but the potential to end up with something worse than what I started with was in essence the source of most of my nervousness about the sharpening process.

I'm no expert; I'm about to post another thread on moving on from a very elementary technique and understanding. However, after spending a fair bit of time sharpening and repairing knives over the past few months, I now have the confidence to know that I will end up with a sharper knife.

All that being said, going back to what I quoted from XooMG, what I do is rub the metal on the abrasive until it's the shape I want it to be.

Edit: what's the old story about sculpting an elephant by removing all the marble that isn't in the shape of an elephant, something like that?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 23, 2017)

"The hardest thing to get my mind around was that I would have to destroy the current edge and it wouldn't be usable until I got it right -- no such thing as stopping halfway and having it be halfway sharp."

+1k! 

Combined with the well-entertained mode of thinking of "we all suck at repairing things" that is still in fashion these days.


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## milkbaby (Mar 25, 2017)

You can do it, you might just not realize it yet! 

Sharpening we do is simply rubbing away metal with a stone until you have a sharp and keen apex. Use the "sharpie trick" (Google it or check out Jon Broida's youtube videos) to make sure you are removing metal from the right place all the way to the edge. Basically you remove metal at a consistent angle to the edge on one side, then remove metal on the other side until the two sides make a sharp apex like the pointy top or tip of a triangle, that's the sharp cutting edge. It's a lot like sharpening a pencil to a very fine tip, but obviously your knife is a different shape, same principle tho.

A 1000 grit stone can create an edge that is hair shaving sharp. I felt the same as you when I started, it gets easier with a little understanding and practice.


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## jessf (Mar 25, 2017)

I got a chinese cleaver to paper cutting sharp with a cheap carborundum stone and stropping on a concrete step so don't feel as though you need expensive stones or complex equipment. Focus on technique amd you can do a lot with very little.


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## nutmeg (Mar 26, 2017)

it's like riding bicycle, just do it.


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## donhoang14 (Mar 26, 2017)

Yes I am using a stainless steel knife. I don't own any carbon knives. I never read this before. Thank you!


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## donhoang14 (Mar 26, 2017)

khashy said:


> Are you trying with stainless knives? If that's the case you should consider that stainless is much less fun/more cumbersome to sharpen than carbon. Specially cheap stainless



Thanks for this! I've been trying to sharpen steel knives. I don't own any carbon. This is such a relief ha!


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## donhoang14 (Mar 26, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Raises hand and waves it wildly in the air.
> 
> Me ME MEEEEE! If you're working with really dull stainless you'll find it easier to break down the edge with a lower grit. 800 got me some traction and I was able to make progress from there. AND good Japanese knives are easier to get a decent edge on than stubborn german stainless...but if you're like me you will ignore all good advice and still practise on stainless anyway.
> 
> Did you try the sharpie trick? Remember to keep the angle constant (I try to remember two coins courtesy of Watanabe).



Yes I tried to tell myself to spend more time on the 400 grit until I THINK I've gotten a burr. Maybe I don't quite know what a burr is? I've read some things here and there about it. I am using german and french knives. Maybe I should invest in a cheap/decent Japanese knife and go from there?


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## donhoang14 (Mar 26, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Are you using a Magic Marker / Sharpie to color the edge and a loupe to see if you are actually hitting the edge? If you aren't, you are essentially "shooting in the dark" and have no way to evaluate what you are doing.
> 
> As _khashy_ wrote, cheap stainless is impossible to learn on.
> 
> Starting your sharpening with the 1000 grit is for a knife that is still has some sharpness left. Dull knives should have a new bevel established and this is best done on the 400 grit.



Yes I have used the sharpie trick. I sharpened it until the marker went away, felt that I could hold a good angle and went away with it. But still didn't feel anything that I wanted. After reading so many similar responses, I'm quite sure the reason is that I'm using stubborn German knives.


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## donhoang14 (Mar 26, 2017)

Benuser said:


> As always, an excellent advice. Perhaps the use of pieces of cork or wood with a fixed inclination might be helpful. Just for reference, the exact value isn't that important. So you may verify if you're still working at 8 degrees or have reached 18 without being aware of it.
> Anyway, it was very helpful when I started. In combination with the marker trick of course.



I cannot picture what you mean by the cork or wood. Do you have a link with illustrations? Thanks!


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## donhoang14 (Mar 26, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Which "cheap 400/1000" stone?
> 
> There are nasty and/or hard to use stones (glazing and clogging issues, just plain slow) totally not good for beginners, and unfortunately many cheap ones match that description (expensive ones too - wouldn't wish the cho 400 on my worst enemy, if he's a beginner he'll be real angry if he is not he will have a very sharp knife  )



I'm sure this is a brand no one has heard of but it's called "Vogue."


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## donhoang14 (Mar 26, 2017)

Benuser said:


> Use some pressure if you're far from the edge you're looking for and have only to thin and remove steel. Loosen when you're building the very edge.



Thanks!


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## donhoang14 (Mar 26, 2017)

XooMG said:


> Dunno. When I read posts like this, I wonder if folks are trying to follow prescriptions without any intuition during the process. Start with the coarse stone and get a feeling for what it's doing to your edge. If it feels like you're tearing down the edge faster than bringing it together, try a few stropping-type (edge-trailing) strokes and see if that causes less damage. Try to figure out what the stone is doing to your edge, and what you might do to prevent it from breaking down.
> 
> If you can get a grabby burr from 400 and it feels sharp (do not bother with tests), don't try to remove the burr with wood right away. Try to refine it and get it as smooth and small as you can with the 400 and just try to figure out what is going on at your edge.
> 
> ...



I appreciae this response. I've told myself a few times that I'll only know if I feel it all for myself. This helps me intuitively!


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## donhoang14 (Mar 26, 2017)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Yep. I started with a 1000 and European knives, German stainless and French carbon -- about 10 of them, not the same as cheap stainless, but also different from Japanese knives. None were very sharp. I did set new bevels with the 1000 grit and it took some time. The first time through about half came out duller so I did them again. I didn't dare try sharpening my new Japanese knife until I had gotten these right, because that was the one that absolutely needed to be sharper immediately after I took it to the stones.
> 
> Here's what helped:
> -Being willing to do damage to the very first few knives I sharpened. As it turned out, I didn't do anything I couldn't fix with a little more time and research, but I was prepared to render one or more unusable until I could fix them or have them fixed.
> ...



Thank you for responding with your own worries and thought process. I used to work in computers so I understand your OS analogy 

I do have a number of knives so maybe I should just tell myself that I will render 1 of them my test buddy. The one that gets worked over and over and over again until I get a grip of things.


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## donhoang14 (Mar 26, 2017)

jessf said:


> I got a chinese cleaver to paper cutting sharp with a cheap carborundum stone and stropping on a concrete step so don't feel as though you need expensive stones or complex equipment. Focus on technique amd you can do a lot with very little.



Yes the best results I've gotten so far was with my cheap $10 cleaver!!! I was wondering maybe it's because it's cheap metal and so I didn't give myself much credit for it. But yay this is my biggest confidence booster so far! Much Thanks!


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## milkbaby (Mar 26, 2017)

Stainless tends to be easier to produce more stubborn or persistent burrs. Since you didn't seem to exactly understand what a burr is, here is a picture:








One of the reasons it's recommended to sharpen a side until you feel a consistent burr along the edge is that you then know you've removed enough metal from that side to reach the cutting edge all along the blade. And the pic also shows why you feel the burr on the opposite side of the one you're pushing on the stone, that's where you're pushing the thin foil or wire of metal to. If we could sharpen just until the moment exactly before the burr forms that would be ideal, but we can't tell when that is, only when the burr forms do we know we reached the edge. 

When I'm starting with very low grit stone to form or reset the edge geometry, I like to form a smaller and smaller burr as I move up to higher grit. I usually reduce pressure as I move up. Also when I'm about to move up to the next grit, I like to do a few edge trailing strokes then one or two edge leading ones to knock the burr down, just gently with the weight of the blade alone. Stainless is a lot tougher to deburr, some people prefer to pull the edge through hard felt block or a soft pine wood to knock off the burr. I don't because I feel that makes a rougher edge than gently working it.

Go slow and check your work often. Don't grind away for minutes on end. Also, sharpie trick is great, but you can also rub it away if you have a lot of slurry and that can sometimes give you a false indication that you're hitting the edge. Use it as well as feeling for the burr. Good luck and happy sharpening!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 26, 2017)

"some people prefer to pull the edge through hard felt block or a soft pine wood to knock off the burr. I don't because I feel that makes a rougher edge than gently working it."

Can be polished out later though  And it does get rid of the burr ... BUT... I used to recommend just going straight for beech .. but found that "cheap stainless" indeed will not survive that in good shape (as in, at minimum sponge test* will succeed after doing it), unlike carbon and some VG10....

*Get a dollar store bar of sponges - not only are they helpful for wetting and de-swarfing stones if you haven't a sink bridge, they (not the felt side!!) also make a useful and cheap test cutting medium. If it won't cut in it is 'pletely blunt (or rolled over seriously), it should slice in easily if sharp (or burred). If you can PUSH the edge in without any slicing then you have gotten far better than you think, and you should be very careful with that knife...


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## K813zra (Mar 26, 2017)

If you are not sure if there is a burr then there likely isn't one at least not if you are using the 400 grit. At that grit and with cheap stainless you should be able to create a sizeable burr that is very easy to detect. I had this problem, not knowing if I had a burr and I didn't. Now, as you move up in grit it does become harder. I find that using my thumb nail to check for a burr works better than with the pad of my thumb. Sometimes I can not feel that tiny burr is still there or remnants of a burr but if I drag the edge sideways across my nail I can not only feel it but hear it catching. 

Now, if you do have a burr and you are reducing it, maybe you are just not getting rid of it. As I said, it gets harder to detect as it gets smaller. Not fully riding of the burr was an issue I suffered from for quite some time. 

Anyway, do not get discouraged. You will get it.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 27, 2017)

A 400 grit can create a plain visible burr, true - but the below-visible kind seems to be what gives you short-lasting wire edges.


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## donhoang14 (Jun 24, 2017)

It's been awhile since I replied to everyone who has helped me. I haven't been practicing really as I've been discouraged again. I'm thinking perhaps I should go out and buy a cheap stainless steel or a cheap Japanese carbon steel? Maybe that will allow me to see and feel some actual progress? Any thoughts on this? 

I work as a rookie vegan chef so my knives dull quickly as I'm chopping a lot of hard veggies. I read that Jon with Japanese Import Knives said his MAC knife was the best one he has had and it sounded like he was using it early on in his career. Maybe this is a direction I can go with?? Thanks!


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## daveb (Jun 24, 2017)

I'm not a fan of the "practice" knife school of thought, cheap knives don't sharpen like real knives, especially cheap stainless. If you're inclined to go that route to better measure progress then I encourage shopping the bay for a Forgecraft (or other vintage carbon). It will sharpen readily, you'll see progress quickly and at the end of the day you'll have a knife.

For your hard and root veg application a cleaver would be well suited. (The 8 and 10" chef knives get a little stupid on pricing)


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## K813zra (Jun 24, 2017)

donhoang14 said:


> It's been awhile since I replied to everyone who has helped me. I haven't been practicing really as I've been discouraged again. I'm thinking perhaps I should go out and buy a cheap stainless steel or a cheap Japanese carbon steel? Maybe that will allow me to see and feel some actual progress? Any thoughts on this?
> 
> I work as a rookie vegan chef so my knives dull quickly as I'm chopping a lot of hard veggies. I read that Jon with Japanese Import Knives said his MAC knife was the best one he has had and it sounded like he was using it early on in his career. Maybe this is a direction I can go with?? Thanks!



Think inexpensive and not cheap. But yes, I think a carbon knife will show you results quicker and with less effort. While I agree with Dave I guess I would have to define a practice knife first before fully agreeing. Me, I practice sharpening probably 300 days a year so a dedicated knife or two is a must or I would be eating up my good knives. I guess this would actually be a stone testing knife more than a practice knife. 

Fujiwara carbon and Tojiro shirogami are inexpensive knifes that take a nice edge easily. They are not the most sexy knives on the planet and a lot of people don't like them but I find they are good knives to play around. I am sure many people disagree with that, though. However, there are some nice knives out there for a little more money that make great daily drivers and I think that is what people often drive at. Getting a knife you can practice on but grow with as well rather than getting something that will only be used for practice. IE not getting a project. 

Again, don't get discouraged because when you do then you stop sharpening and if you stop you can not improve. Look for the good things and see any form of improvement as a milestone. Getting the knife sharper that factory may be one goal but simply getting the knife to cut when it otherwise wouldn't is also a goal. One step at a time.


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## chinacats (Jun 24, 2017)

Don't buy a MAC, just find a decent carbon steel knife...ie an inexpensive cleaver (just ask if it will rust or not--you want one that will rust.

And go find Jon's sharpie video, my guess is that you're just thinning the knife and not actually getting to the edge...and stick with it as you're probably closer than you think.


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## loong (Jun 27, 2017)

find an inexpensive knife to practice your sharpening skill. Just remind me to share a video about sharpening a one dollar knife. I am looking for such rust knife to try on:knife:
[video=youtube;Zo6n7PV3K3o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo6n7PV3K3o[/video]


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## zetieum (Jun 27, 2017)

XooMG said:


> Most of all, be thoughtful to what you're doing, rather than focusing on what you read or saw to be good technique. The edge is right there, let it tell you what you're doing right and wrong.



+1
Use your senses: 
- sight: to see the edge and the sharpie.
- hearing: sound of the steel on the stone
- touch: to feel the bur, feel the edge
- smell: yeah it has a smelll. Especially natural. and I like it. But it is more for fun.
Use your brain: to analyse all of that and adjust what you are doing.


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## Yoni Lang (Jul 1, 2017)

I felt like that for a long time and sharpened hundreds of knives thousands of times before I really started feeling confident. The important thing to do is start somewhere, which you've done, and don't stop. Whenever you hit a point where you're confused about something make it a point to search out that question. This forum has so much information on every topic and a lot of extremely knowledgeable folks. I can guarantee you, any question you have you can either already find it here, or someone will have an answer for you. One other thing is to start slow and always try new things. Sharpening 1 knife the same way and expecting different outcomes is silly. Take the time to visually examine the work you're doing every dozen strokes or so until you can start to figure out what's really going on. Good luck!

aaaaand one other thing... constantly read/research!


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## donhoang14 (Aug 7, 2017)

I want to really thank you everyone that helped me out on this thread. I took a lot of your advice and I'm starting to see and feel some results. I feel really good about myself and my craft now. I'm still using my 1000 stone but I have now bought a molybednum blade and it yeilds much more obvious results. I've been rewatching Jon's videos and checking my work often. At times it feels like a pain and I just want to give up for the night and at times I try just a tiny bit more. I'm starting to get the hang of it and my fellow chef colleagues have also noticed a difference. This is such a good feeling!

Thanks everyone!


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## milkbaby (Aug 7, 2017)

Congrats, good job, and keep it up! :doublethumbsup:


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