# How would you choose a grail general purpose knife for your personal home cooking?



## josemartinlopez (Jun 28, 2020)

I'd like to start a thread so that I can visualize a future grail knife, general purpose, for personal home cooking. Not something to buy right away but to keep in mind as I explore my preferences with Japanese knives. Also interested in what questions I need to ask myself to visualize a personal grail knife beyond a specific knife recommendation. I browsed several other threads but couldn't find one about visualizing your personal grail knife, hence this thread.

LOCATION
Singapore. The hot and humid island at the equator featured in "Crazy Rich Asians".

KNIFE TYPE
General purpose, think "if you could only have one knife for everyday use..." Probably a gyuto though I wonder if santoku/bunka is the better answer.

Right handed.

Japanese handle.

Probably 240 mm gyuto or 180 mm santoku/bunka.

Stainless not required. 

No budget for discussion purposes, but I want to visualize a knife I would use every day for actual cooking and would exclude inserting diamonds into the handle etc (kidding).

KNIFE USE
Home and personal use.

General purpose tasks, probably slicing/chopping/dicing etc. vegetables and simple jobs with fish and meat. I honestly don't see myself cutting down multiple turkeys, cutting up a huge slab of beef with bones or filleting large fish anytime soon but who knows where the rabbit hole leads.

No specific knife being replaced, grip or cuting motions, for discussion purposes.

No specific improvements, for discussion purposes, since I am visualizing a grail knife that would necessarily have all the improvements I could possibly want.

Not focused on aesthetics unless they do not affect utility/comfort. I would think the quality of a grail knife would show in itself, and simple aesthetics would only showcase that quality better. Wouldn't mind exploring a custom handle and nice finish since we are visualizing a grail knife. But my mindset is that it's the edge doing the cutting, not the handle or finish.

Would want a comfortable knife in terms of handle and balance, but I am still feeling out my concept of comfortable (ex. lighter/heavier).

I'll leave ease of use open since it can be defined in a few ways. Push cutting and slicing over rock chopping is probably fine. Don't think I'm concerned by food release up to a point, but would love a discussion on what the right mix of characteristics for a grail knife is. I wouldn't mind something high quality that you have to wash immediately after use or put in extra effort to learn to sharpen.

Edge retention is not a big deal, for discussion purposes, up to a point. Something that needs a few passes on a fine whetstone after every few uses should be fine (right?). 

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Assume the grail knife can be provided with the right wood cutting board it needs, and the board will follow the knife.

Assume the owner will sharpen the knife personally.

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I'd love to own and use a knife where you can appreciate the workmanship and heritage reflected by the knife each time you slice.


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## lemeneid (Jun 28, 2020)

Holy grail knife? TF honyaki, I'm working on it


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 28, 2020)

Toyama & Shihan are my two best all around gyutos. They do Everything well, similar profile with high heel but not ridiculously high, thin on the edge but not skinny on the spine, both are solid middle weights, better than 90% of knives I’ve tried for general use. Shihan has tougher steel, can handle semi frozen meat that Toyama as well as most Japanese knives can’t without micro chipping. I am giving Shihan a slight edge over Toyama. 

Not grail only because not rare, & prices are not high enough, not because of performance IMHO. 

Kato WH performed similarly with a grail qualifying price. Shig. Kasumi can not compete without thinning job due to low grind, same goes for TF Denka, needs lots of work. I sold mine because the amount of work to make it to my satisfaction wasn’t worth It to me.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 28, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Holy grail knife? TF honyaki, I'm working on it


Good luck with that. Enquired about a honyaki a couple years ago and they weren't too eager. The example i saw was less than impressive.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 28, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> same goes for TF Denka, needs lots of work. I sold mine because the amount of work to make it to my satisfaction wasn’t worth It to me.


Which is why its good to buy direct. Get them to refinish the blade with the characteristics you want. TF IV thinned my Denka and its the best cutting blade in my collection.


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 28, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Which is why its good to buy direct. Get them to refinish the blade with the characteristics you want. TF IV thinned my Denka and its the best cutting blade in my collection.



I agree, going direct is the best way for TF, I still have my Mab that I bought direct, still, I did 3 rounds of thinning to make it come closer to Toyama performance. 

Another reason I kept Shihan over the Denka is 
for semi frozen meat cutting, which I do it almost daily. I don’t thow the meat fully, I slice meat real thin for stir-fry, semi frozen is the way to go for that. Denka shows sign of micro chipping despite the legendary reputation on heat treat, Shihan so far so good, no micro chipping yet. 

I know most people would not subject their gyutos to such a task, but to me, it’s a legit need.


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## Blerghle (Jun 28, 2020)

For me, this comes down to the tactile experience of cutting and sharpening, followed by workmanship/heritage, then visuals. Of the knives I have used (never spent more than ~$225, but some would now sell in the $400 range), the one that most fulfills these ideals is a Mutsumi Hinoura White #2 kurouchi santoku. The grind makes it an effective cutter that just feels great sailing through veg. A nicely heat treated simple carbon steel makes for great feedback when sharpening - more than ability to make a good edge, it just feels nicer than even good stainless steels. It has an identifiable maker, the son of a relatively famous smith. And it has an obviously handmade look.

In contrast to that, I have a Tadatsuna ginsan/stainless 270 gyuto. There isn't really anything the Hinoura does that this doesn't. It's thin, has a good profile, the stainless makes for easier maintenance, and as stainless goes it takes a good edge. But the grind seems indifferent, the steel doesn't feel as nice on the stones, and it has a more generic look despite being more expensive. I should probably do what I can to touch it up and then sell it, now that I'm putting it into words.

Going forward, some time down the line I will probably look for that Hinoura experience with a longer gyuto. From what I read here, TF is in the lead, with Toyama a consideration to try out the convex grind in contrast to the wide bevel/slightly concave Hinoura. I am comfortable using 240-270 gyutos, so budget willing, that's more of a do-it-all. But I can't see ever getting rid of the Hinoura and don't have a goal of doing so. The ideal/grail knife for me is always going to be part of a group of knives from different makers.


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 28, 2020)

Having had both Toyama and Hinoura, the Toyama cuts slightly better. Both were ~180g middle weight gyuto with similar high heel, very similar profile, the photo below shows them side by side. 

Although the Hinoura looks thinner on the choil shot, the Toyama cuts better, I don’t know why buy it did. 

However, Hinoura’s price is much lower, can’t beat it for the money, & I’d take it over the popular Kochi, very underrated IMHO.






Toyama & Hinoura side by side:


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## Nagakin (Jun 28, 2020)

There's no reason your grail needs to be different at home.


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## josemartinlopez (Jun 28, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Holy grail knife? TF honyaki, I'm working on it


Is there a thread where I can read up on the project specs?


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## josemartinlopez (Jun 28, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Not grail only because not rare, & prices are not high enough, not because of performance IMHO.


Heh, so you'd say these are pretty much the top of the line in terms of performance, just not collectible so we technically can't call them grails?


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## josemartinlopez (Jun 28, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I don’t thaw the meat fully, I slice meat real thin for stir-fry, semi frozen is the way to go for that. ...
> 
> I know most people would not subject their gyutos to such a task, but to me, it’s a legit need.


Could you elaborate?


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## josemartinlopez (Jun 28, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Toyama & Shihan are my two best all around gyutos.


Could I check which specific knives these are?


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## HSC /// Knives (Jun 28, 2020)

Michael Rader, and I’m working on it 
52100 integral


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## ExistentialHero (Jun 28, 2020)

In general, I wouldn't look for one knife to do everything in the kitchen. A really great gyuto is a super useful tool, but you're never going to be happy using it to break down a chicken or a fish. There's a reason folks around here tend to have a stable of different sizes and shapes of knives--when a knife is specialized for a smaller set of tasks, it can be better at them than a single gyuto that's trying to cover everything.

If we're not worrying about cost, a great thing about this approach is that it means you get to buy more knives 

I'm nowhere near the end of this journey, and tastes vary a lot, but here's where I've landed on knife classes I like and preferences within them:
* A big heavy workhorse gyuto: the daily driver. The best of these can take really fantastic edges and put a lot of weight behind them for when you just need to cut something. My current favorite in this class is a 275mm Catcheside "forged geometry" gyuto, and it's the knife I reach for most when I'm cooking.
* A laser gyuto or large petty: the onion knife. Sometimes you need something thin and pointy for fine tip work like dicing an onion. I'm still exploring this space but currently use a 240mm Konosuke Sanjo gyuto for this.
* A nakiri or chuka: the veggie chopper. I had a Watanabe Pro nakiri that I really liked in this space, but then I tried a Laseur chuka and fell in love with the extra height. I grab this whenever I'm dealing with a bunch of greens, a potato, or anything else that needs to be chopped rather than sliced.
* Specialty knives: I have a long sujihiki for big slabs of cooked meat and a honesuki for breaking down chickens that I use often. You'll have your own needs here.
* A beater: something for guests to use. Mine is a 10" Victorinox Fibrox; no sense in spending a lot of money here


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## josemartinlopez (Jun 28, 2020)

ExistentialHero said:


> In general, I wouldn't look for one knife to do everything in the kitchen. A really great gyuto is a super useful tool..


I should have phrased more precisely: How would you choose YOUR FIRST grail...

Better?

Thanks, that's an excellent outline.


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## ExistentialHero (Jun 28, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> I should have phrased more precisely: How would you choose YOUR FIRST grail...



Watch the BST here until you see something that tickles your fancy and jump on it  Lots of great deals there if you're not already committed to something very specific.

The key thing is that a lot of this is personal taste. I really like gyutos with very flat profiles, for example, but most folks around here like some belly. Fastest way to find out what you like is to buy a few knives, and picking them up used means you can usually get back out without losing a lot of money once you decide which ones to keep and which to pass along.

All that said, if you're looking for a grail to lust after, mine is a big Raquin gyuto. My big Catcheside is doing me just fine, though


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## josemartinlopez (Jun 28, 2020)

Why Raquin in particular? 

I am quickly realizing that even if you bought just one each from the ten forum favorite blacksmiths, you would quickly go down the rabbit hole, and I better lose my Paypal password for a while until I've browsed a bit!


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## Cliff (Jun 28, 2020)

For me, the one knife that does more things well than any other knife is a 270KS -- it's stiff enough for root vegetables and laser enough for delicate work. It also works as a slicer, though not as well as a dedicated slicer. But I like different kinds of knives, so..., I'll reach for a laser for soft veg and fruit and small tasks and a big Sanjo knife if I'm doing a big prep session.


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## josemartinlopez (Jun 28, 2020)

Sorry what's a 270KS?


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## Cliff (Jun 28, 2020)

It's a Masamoto Gyuto modeled on the old French Sabatier profile. Most people prefer the smaller 240 version -- both are oversized. They were cult knives awhile ago. I think fads have moved on, but they are great all around knives.


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## Nagakin (Jun 28, 2020)

They're not for everybody, but with a consistent skillset a flat sabatier profile with a short heel really can do basically everything with just one knife. If you're going to be rough with chicken bones, old crispy bacon, dry stacks of lemongrass, semi-frozen ginger, etc. you'll be fine with a microbevel. The price point can make it hard, but well made knives can survive quite a bit of abuse.


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## Jville (Jun 28, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I agree, going direct is the best way for TF, I still have my Mab that I bought direct, still, I did 3 rounds of thinning to make it come closer to Toyama performance.
> 
> Another reason I kept Shihan over the Denka is
> for semi frozen meat cutting, which I do it almost daily. I don’t thow the meat fully, I slice meat real thin for stir-fry, semi frozen is the way to go for that. Denka shows sign of micro chipping despite the legendary reputation on heat treat, Shihan so far so good, no micro chipping yet.
> ...


I'm thinking your Shihan is made of 52100? If so, that's known to be a pretty tough steel. That may have something to do with the toughness, rather than, just it being a Shihan. Although, I heard someone say his ht of it was really good. And, of course, he does great work.


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## Jville (Jun 28, 2020)

It's tricky when you start saying holy grail knife, because it implies encompassing every desirable quality without any weaknesses, basically perfection. It would cut every ingredient the easiest and also release them perfectly. It would hold the best edge while feeling the best on the stones, while being the easiest to sharpen. You can basically always find something that a knife is not the best at. For me, right now I'd say my favorite gyuto all around has been my Mert honyakis. They have workhorse grinds that are really thin behind the edge. So they have pretty thick spine with great distal taper with thin tips. They go through basically everything I can find with ease whether dense or soft veg, and the food release is good. They look good, feel good in hand, and have tall grinds. I also like honyakis or monosteel. It gives you the pleasure of carbon steel without dealing with the reactivity of iron clad. I loved my Toyama gyutos but I let them go in favor of my Merts (I still kept and love my 210 Toyama nakiri).


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 28, 2020)

Jville said:


> I'm thinking your Shihan is made of 52100? If so, that's known to be a pretty tough steel. That may have something to do with the toughness, rather than, just it being a Shihan. Although, I heard someone say his ht of it was really good. And, of course, he does great work.


Yeah, it’s 52100 steel.


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## Cliff (Jun 28, 2020)

Jville said:


> It's tricky when you start saying holy grail knife.



Agree with this. It sounds like a museum piece, the greatest ever, but then it's to be the lone knife in the kitchen. I don't know how versatile the Grail was. It becomes a very personal thing quickly. If you're looking for the best one-and-done knife for daily duty, I think that's different from the most delicate, finely realized grind of the most refined steel. If you're talking about fine, high performance knives, they come in a wide range of styles, sizes, and so forth. I don't think we could achieve consensus on even a few.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jun 28, 2020)

My question for you is, how much do you got to spend for this grail knife?


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## tchan001 (Jun 28, 2020)

Holy grails on BST are bought within minutes. Witnessed the recent 2015-priced Kato and Shig being sold in a flash. So if you ever come across something you consider your grail on BST, you need to have had done your research on what you like beforehand, make a quick decision on whether the blade is in what you consider as acceptable condition, and have fast fingers for replying.
How much you spend on a grail knife depends on what you consider affordable. As a collector you would buy the best you can afford in the best condition. As a user, you would probably want a fair deal with something in a reasonable condition. As a project, you could find something cheap which you think you can fix up to become your usable grail. Good luck with finding your grail.


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## Boondocker (Jun 28, 2020)

Masamoto


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## lemeneid (Jun 28, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I agree, going direct is the best way for TF, I still have my Mab that I bought direct, still, I did 3 rounds of thinning to make it come closer to Toyama performance.
> 
> Another reason I kept Shihan over the Denka is
> for semi frozen meat cutting, which I do it almost daily. I don’t thow the meat fully, I slice meat real thin for stir-fry, semi frozen is the way to go for that. Denka shows sign of micro chipping despite the legendary reputation on heat treat, Shihan so far so good, no micro chipping yet.
> ...


On the other hand, my Toyama honyaki was polished, sharpened and thinned by Lee, but it still does not hold a candle to my hand picked TF Denka which was everything out of the box!

That said, I do agree all knives will need a little work to get them perfect. Even my Denka I did spend a little time to polish down the bevels and make them even. It performs even better now! And I do have a little regret selling it  but I’m getting a better knife so


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## Nemo (Jun 28, 2020)

To me, this a variation on the question, "which is the best knife", which is often asked by people new to knives. I guess it follows in some ways from the desire to know what you get for your money as the price goes up.

There is, of course, no "best knife". Different knives excel at different things. Indeed some knives don't excel at much at all. This is the true beauty of kitchen knives- there are so many facets of performance, ergonomics and aesthetics to take into account and you will only start to learn about these as you try differnt knives. What one person considers important will vary from another person and indeed will likely change from one situation to another.

Many of the facets of performance are trade-offs with another facet, so the knifemaker needs to choose which aspect they are pursuing. For example, a thin knife will excel at going through hard produce but sucks (literally) at going through wet produce. A thick knife can incorporate grind features such as convexity which allow easy passage through wet produce but can wedge in hard produce. Note that if you give a thick knife a flat grind it will also get a lot of stiction in wet produce, so it important for the knifemaker to actually do the work to get the benefit out of a thick grind.

So, no, for me there is no "grail" knife (we often call them "unicorns" on KKF). I appreciate each knife for what it does well. And what it doesn't, because this informs my understanding of why it doesn't do it well and what is required in a knife to perform that particular task well.


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## madelinez (Jun 28, 2020)

I would get a 210-240mm assuming your kitchen and cutting boards are large enough to accommodate. Best general purpose gyutos for me ignoring price are Raquin and Catcheside. Raquin cladding is pretty reactive though so you'd want to be using it at least weekly in Singapore's humidity.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 2, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> My question for you is, how much do you got to spend for this grail knife?


Enough.


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## zeaderan (Jul 2, 2020)

Maumasi


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jul 2, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Enough.


It was a rhetorical question, though grail knives are usually expensive for most people.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 18, 2020)

tchan001 said:


> Witnessed the recent 2015-priced Kato and Shig being sold in a flash.


Probably opening a can of worms but why exactly are Kato and Shig priced so high on this forum? I read old threads with reviews but still do not understand why they are so much better than comparable knives, and don't know if they are as well regarded in Japan itself. 

Also, why are there so many threads talking about the Masamoto KS as the grail knife of five years ago?


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## zizirex (Jul 19, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Probably opening a can of worms but why exactly are Kato and Shig priced so high on this forum? I read old threads with reviews but still do not understand why they are so much better than comparable knives, and don't know if they are as well regarded in Japan itself.
> 
> Also, why are there so many threads talking about the Masamoto KS as the grail knife of five years ago?


because Hype, limited production and best way to flip a knife (making money).


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## Barmoley (Jul 19, 2020)

zizirex said:


> because Hype, limited production and best way to flip a knife (making money).


See this is not an explanation.

Limited production sure, but I can make a knife and I won't be able to sell it. The knife has to be popular first. Hype, fine, but hype doesn't last for years if the product is total crap. Best way to flip a knife, see above has to be desirable first before one can flip it for more.

Given this, both shig and Kato must be desirable, by a pretty large group of people, to continually bring such prices and by extension have to be pretty good knives to some people. Unless ofcourse you believe in conspiracy theories and think that it is all a ploy by a small group on the forums in order to make money on these. Seems very far fetched for someone to go through the trouble for years.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 19, 2020)

Again, not trying to open a can of worms, but what would the comparable knives to Shig and Kato, and why are the latter better (or at least priced higher)?


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## M1k3 (Jul 19, 2020)

Decent cutters made the old fashioned way by hand and limited production and retiring so dwindling production with no successor with a sprinkling of hype. A sort of perfect storm.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 19, 2020)

Yeah but what exactly is their cutting profile and what is comparable? I’ve read the reviews but don’t quite understand how they compare to the alternatives.


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## Jville (Jul 19, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Yeah but what exactly is their cutting profile and what is comparable? I’ve read the reviews but don’t quite understand how they compare to the alternatives.


It's not really just about the profiles. They are pretty unique, not that alot of other handmade knives aren't. When it comes to Katos, probably, the most unique and coveted factor is the grind. They are very thick and taper nicely, yet often found to be great cutters. I put "often", because that can vary from different knives and different experiences. Shig the steel is wonderful to sharpen imo. The grinds are also a part of Shigs somewhat uniqueness. They actually can vary so I won't go into all of those. Plus I'm no expert on either, but I've had some experiences. And they are knives that I feel are very rememberable, even if you don't like them. Me personally, I love them both, but don't want to pay exuberant prices that some charge on secondary market. Maybe ask a friend who has one and try them, see for yourself and make your own opinion.


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## zizirex (Jul 19, 2020)

it's a good decent knife, handmade, limited run, 
Made using Sen instead a water wheel to grind the knife. Is it better? maybe.. less chance of low spot, is it worth it? YMMV
Jiro is also grinding the knife using Sen, but the hype is not on that level yet that's why you could still get it.
Shig has so many types, the KU is the fat bastard, it is fat and very cheapo looks, is it good? well YMMV again.

people in here very appreciate knife by single man artisanal style. where if it's made by a single person/family and the more traditional it is, the more likely people will buy it.

Back to the knife itself, cutting profile is a bit taller, very nice for most people here where knuckle clearance matters. the grind is a little bit of S grind, and convex. on top of that, natural stone finishes really increase the value of the knife.

if you want to buy the Shig, buy at least the Migaki because the KU is just not worth it.
As for Kato, he is Old, and retiring soon, famous for his workhorse series. A knife with an Eiffel tower distal taper really wins the hearts of many people.

As for hype, What @M1k3 said is true. that's a perfect recipe for making go crazy.

In the end, is it worth it? well, it is worth it if you are a collector because once it's gone, you will never gonna get it again. if you're asking for performance, there are knives that are much better at that price and not as limited as those 2.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 19, 2020)

Any examples of what are better in terms of performance with comparable cutting style?


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## Michi (Jul 19, 2020)

If you want only one "do everything" knife, a 210 mm middle-weight gyuto would be my choice. Truly universal, not too big, not too small.


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## Jville (Jul 19, 2020)

Michi said:


> If you want only one "do everything" knife, a 210 mm middle-weight gyuto would be my choice. Truly universal, not too big, not too small.


But which one is excalibur? That is his quest.


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## Barmoley (Jul 19, 2020)

zizirex said:


> it's a good decent knife, handmade, limited run,
> Made using Sen instead a water wheel to grind the knife. Is it better? maybe.. less chance of low spot, is it worth it? YMMV
> Jiro is also grinding the knife using Sen, but the hype is not on that level yet that's why you could still get it.
> Shig has so many types, the KU is the fat bastard, it is fat and very cheapo looks, is it good? well YMMV again.
> ...


What knives are much better performance wise than Kato in the same price range? I've never used one, so would like to know.


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## BillHanna (Jul 19, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> What knives are much better performance wise than Kato in the same price range? I've never used one, so would like to know.


I think a Recommended If You Like thread would be awesome. Someone smart and knowledgeable should start one.


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## Nemo (Jul 20, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Any examples of what are better in terms of performance with comparable cutting style?


I get why you are asking this but it's so much more complex than you appear to realise. Which is why you keep getting oblique answers to the question.

What do you mean by "performance" and "cutting style"? How are you going to use the knife? Which aspects of performance do you prioritise?

Different aspects of performance often trade off against each other. Some knifemakers are better than others at finessing these compromises than others but there is no one perfect knife.

I have never used Kato.

The Shig I used reminded me very much of my (current generation) Gengetsu in terms of thinness vs food release tradeoff (that is to say, very good) and overall thickness. It was probably a bit more tapered.


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## zizirex (Jul 20, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> What knives are much better performance wise than Kato in the same price range? I've never used one, so would like to know.



That's hard to say, performance good for you is not the same for everybody. I never used one yet, but a friend of mine said that Jiro is as good as him. He has a couple of Kato and a credible guy so I could trust him.


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## Jville (Jul 20, 2020)

zizirex said:


> That's hard to say, performance good for you is not the same for everybody. I never used one yet, but a friend of mine said that Jiro is as good as him. He has a couple of Kato and a credible guy so I could trust him.


I'm assuming you tried Kato and not Jiro? Jiro and Kato are such completely different knives. If someone likes Jiro better than of course, they are entitled to their opinion. But it's kind of of like saying an Apple is better than an orange. I also don't think people are buying Kato's based mostly on him doing the work himself. I think they are just very interesting knives that people want to try or own. And that many people just like using them. I hear alot of people talk about ku shigs like they are sort of low level. I'll just throw my 2 cents out there. All three nakiris that I had my hands on I likef a lot. The two 165s were convexed very smoothly and got thin behind the edge. They were really enjoyable on alot of product (not sweet potatoes) and oozed craftsmanship. They 180 ku nakiri was my favorite and it had a phenomenal grind that was masterful. It was a little thinner, nice distal taper, beautiful smooth convexing and thin behind the edge, also thinned back out towards the spine for better food release. It felt in no way sloppy, rather, it felt meticulously and masterly crafted, just my opinion though.


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## zizirex (Jul 20, 2020)

Jville said:


> I'm assuming you tried Kato and not Jiro? Jiro and Kato are such completely different knives. If someone likes Jiro better than of course, they are entitled to their opinion. But it's kind of of like saying an Apple is better than an orange. I also don't think people are buying Kato's based mostly on him doing the work himself. I think they are just very interesting knives that people want to try or own. And that many people just like using them. I hear alot of people talk about ku shigs like they are sort of low level. I'll just throw my 2 cents out there. All three nakiris that I had my hands on I likef a lot. The two 165s were convexed very smoothly and got thin behind the edge. They were really enjoyable on alot of product (not sweet potatoes) and oozed craftsmanship. They 180 ku nakiri was my favorite and it had a phenomenal grind that was masterful. It was a little thinner, nice distal taper, beautiful smooth convexing and thin behind the edge, also thinned back out towards the spine for better food release. It felt in no way sloppy, rather, it felt meticulously and masterly crafted, just my opinion though.


Yes kinda hard to say a good performance because everyone has a different style and opinion. I don't care about food release and how it falls through the food is what matter's to me. heavier knife helps but sometimes it wedges like crazy. Kato is a good performance knife but is that performance is the same performance that I wanted or KKF performance? who knows.

Then again, what you said Kato & Jiro is like apple to an orange, it is not the same. that means everyone's opinion is also different. maybe it's just my 2 cents.


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## danemonji (Jul 20, 2020)

Kato is not a prize or something to buy thinking to get money. I wanted to say this for a long time. You want to make money just buy stocks. Tesla stock were 500$ begining of year now they tripled value( although they were close to 1800 last week).
You buy knives to use and enjoy a piece of craftsmanship that's unique. Each maker like each artist is more or less special in style, but some just influence the craft so much that they set the standard. Kato and Shigefusa did just that. Kato style of knives has become a standard for profile, taper and grind and before kato nobody did workhorses. We take for granted his design of the blade copied by many other popular makers. Even his KU style has made some smiths very popular and if you look at the finish of their KU, or shape, or worhorse grind you come to realize that they have something Katoesque in them.
While many copy Kato, Kato is just Kato and that makes him special.
Shigefusa also set a standard for finishing knives to perfection and holding that standard across decades and two generations. They are very popular knives in Japan and around the world and for good reason.
Jiro is also unique in his own way. He is a very talented and skilled smith and could have done what mazaki is doing: copy a grand master and just become popular because you remind people of someone else.
But Jiro has walked his own path and asumed criticism, with his unique style of blades and handles and center of weight. This is what I like about him. The courage to be original. And his knives are very good and are currently sold out ( just like kato and shigs) in all the stores around the world


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## Brian Weekley (Jul 20, 2020)

Hmmmmm .... very interesting question. I have quite a few knives from most of the makers discussed here. When a new knife arrives in my collection I line it up and rotate it through my home kitchen for a couple of weeks. Most I appreciate, record and put away. From time to time I encounter a knife that is outstanding in hand. They are knives that I reach for In deference to others because they do so many jobs very well. These knives end up in what I call my “permanent block”. After a few kitchen renovations this year the permanent block has turned into a mag strip. Here’s a picture of my permanent block as it sits today. 







From left to right, a custom blade by Alex Horn, a Takeda AS Petty, a Catcheside nakiri, a Carter Funayuki, a Takeda NAS kogatana, and a Kurosaki Fujin VG10 Bunka. In the background Is a pharmacists compounding spatula. Most are between 180 and 200mm. All, except the Kurosaki are reactive blades. Just to be clear I have two drawer blocks which mostly contain gyuto’s and a couple of suji’s as well as a half dozen Victorinox paring knives. I guess some of these could be called “grail” knives, but in truth the knives in the pictured mag strip are the knives I reach for most often when I want to get things done in my HOME kitchen. Were I working in a commercial kitchen some of my choices would be different and would most certainly include my 240mm Catcheside gyuto. Closest to what we would think of as a “grail” knife is the Horn knife at the far left. In my opinion Alex Horn is one seriously talented knife-smith. If he ever settles down to perfecting his art and style I believe he will become a future master-smith with knife prices moving into nose bleed territory. This knife is a fully reactive hand forged san mai blade with a distinctive and, IMO, very attractive coffee etch. Murray Carters influence is evident in that it is a very thin blade and an absolute cutting machine. The Takeda petty is similar but different enough to be used often. I love it’s S grind, more robust tip and it sharpens rediculously easy to a scary sharp edge. The Catcheside nakiri is a vege chopping monster. There is nothing in the vegetable world that I won’t use it to demolish except maybe a large a large squash or cabbage ... in which case I’ll probably pull my Catcheside Gyuto from the drawer block. Unbelievably the Catcheside nakiri bested my Takeda Nakiri in the naughty schoolboy great potato slap down. Next up is probably the best all-around kitchen knife I own in a Carter Funayuki. It will do anything in a home kitchen and do it very well. In a commercial kitchen, I’m not so sure. It’s rediculously easy to sharpen, takes and holds a long lasting scary sharp edge and has a wonderful balanced feel in my hand. It may not be a “grail” but it’s a darn fine knife and worth every penny of Carter‘s premium pricing. Not much to say about the Takeda Kogetana except if you don’t have one ... go buy one. I use it several times each day for opening packages, quick portioning and cutting cardboard. I can’t believe how it holds an edge given the abuse it sees in my kitchen. The last knife is the surprise of the bunch. It’s a bunka by Yu Kurosaki. VG10 steel in his “fujin” style which I find very attractive, even though the markings can pick up cutting residue which is annoying. It’s light, thin, has great feel in hand, sharpens easily, holds a great edge and is the only stainless knife on the rack. I use it a lot when I’m in a hurry. I especially like the sharp tip. It’s the only knife of the bunch which I own a pair. One stays permanently aboard my boat.

So, there it is! My current permanent block. Maybe a couple of “almost grails” but I have individual knives in my collection that are worth more than all of my permanent block knives combined. These are the knives I reach for when I want to get things done in my home kitchen.


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## Ruso (Jul 20, 2020)

Grails is about the journey and not about the material object. Enjoy!


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jul 20, 2020)

Ruso said:


> Grails is about the journey and not about the material object. Enjoy!


Pretty much this, grails are different for everyone and depends on your preference. I own an almost unattainable knife (Kramer damascus), yet I wouldn't consider it my grail knife. I'm still on my journey.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 20, 2020)

danemonji said:


> Kato style of knives has become a standard for profile, taper and grind and before kato nobody did workhorses. We take for granted his design of the blade copied by many other popular makers. Even his KU style has made some smiths very popular and if you look at the finish of their KU, or shape, or worhorse grind you come to realize that they have something Katoesque in them.
> While many copy Kato, Kato is just Kato and that makes him special.
> Shigefusa also set a standard for finishing knives to perfection and holding that standard across decades and two generations. They are very popular knives in Japan and around the world and for good reason.


Thanks, I was looking for answers like this! Asking people what their preferenecs are and why certain knives fit those preferences helps me along my own journey, understanding that there are no definitive answers here.


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## MoabDave (Jul 20, 2020)

This is why I am on this forum.


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## DitmasPork (Jul 21, 2020)

"...grail knife, general purpose, for personal home cooking."

All of my gyutos are used as general purpose use in home cooking. It comes down to whatever I feel like using, whatever is sharp—Kato, TF, Raquin, Takada all great general purpose knives for a home cook. Watanabe is my beater.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 21, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> "...grail knife, general purpose, for personal home cooking."
> 
> All of my gyutos are used as general purpose us in home cooking. It comes down to whatever I feel like using, whatever is sharp—Kato, TF, Raquin, Takada all great general purpose knives for a home cook. Watanabe is my beater.


When do you feel like using which?


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## DitmasPork (Jul 21, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> When do you feel like using which?



I tend to use my most recently bought knives most—then backtrack if I've not bought any for a while. Takada, TF and Raquin are the ones seeing most board time, all gotten this year. My 225 Tsourkan WH is a great performer, but so last year—not being flippant, but sadly new knives get me excited and hold my interest.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 21, 2020)

That's one way of doing it. How do they feel different?


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## DitmasPork (Jul 21, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> That's one way of doing it. How do they feel different?



Every knife feels different, that's a big part of why I along with many others enjoy trying out different knives! All knives have strengths and weaknesses—the feel of a laser going through on onion is magic, but sometimes unpleasant as it struggles on a dense root veg. Best to try different types of knives, find your preferences—knives I love are just 'meh' to my friends, and vis versa.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 21, 2020)

I was hoping to articulate differences beyond laser versus chopper


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 25, 2020)

What if we rephrase the question to, what would your grail knife roll look like? Not asking for one knife that does everything, but how would you consciously assemble a set of knives that you like to use, that are well made, and that largely take care of your various cutting preferences?


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## YumYumSauce (Jul 25, 2020)

My grail knife is probably a honyaki ashi gyuto. 

I use my knives both at work and at home. I value functionality over asthetics but still value looks.
The bare minimun I would want is a 240mm beater gyuto, thin behind the edge 240mm gyuto, and 150mm stainless petty. Smaller pairing, chinese cleaver, honesuki, deba, slicer I like having. Gyuto, slicer, petty and single bevels can be more delicate but Id want everything else to be more robust. I generally like thinner knives. Dont have enough experience with single bevels to pick a grail.

I have tojiro 240 gyuto, gengetsu 240 semi gyuto, gesshin ginga 150mm stainless petty, mac pairing, rinkaku lefty honesuki, gesshin uraku lefty deba, cck chinese cleaver.

I'm perfectly fine with the knives I already have and almost all my bases are covered. Even with unlimited money I dont see a need to replace any knife I already have. I would still add a yanagiba, usuba, more gyutos and upgrade everything else for the hell of it.


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## Jville (Jul 25, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> What if we rephrase the question to, what would your grail knife roll look like? Not asking for one knife that does everything, but how would you consciously assemble a set of knives that you like to use, that are well made, and that largely take care of your various cutting preferences?


You would think this would make it simpler, but I don't know that it really does. Maybe ask the question, what is the next knife you want?


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## toddnmd (Jul 25, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> What if we rephrase the question to, what would your grail knife roll look like? Not asking for one knife that does everything, but how would you consciously assemble a set of knives that you like to use, that are well made, and that largely take care of your various cutting preferences?


My grail knife roll looks like the knives I’ve tried and loved for whatever reason and have decided I must keep. Though something might catch my fancy tomorrow or next year, which will lead me to either selling something or coming up with some kind of elaborate mental justification of why I’m once again expanding my collection.


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## ian (Jul 25, 2020)

OP, I think you’re way overthinking things! Just buy some knives already.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jul 25, 2020)

ian said:


> OP, I think you’re way overthinking things! Just buy some knives already.


Just repeating.


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## captaincaed (Jul 25, 2020)

set aside $3k, go play, and don't think of the money spent as as 'vacation to knife land' - you're not getting any of the money back, but you'll pick up some really cool souvenirs along the way.


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## ian (Jul 25, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> set aside $3k





Or just buy something for $400-$600 and come back when you’re bored.


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## captaincaed (Jul 25, 2020)

ian said:


> Or just buy something for $400-$600 and come back when you’re bored.


to clarify: be honest with yourself that you'll eventually spend $3k, set it aside, and don't go over budget. Start with cost layouts that don't cause you to make a mess in your trousers, go from there. Have fun.

for the record, I'm embarrassingly well past this point.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jul 25, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> to clarify: be honest with yourself that you'll eventually spend $3k, set it aside, and don't go over budget. Start with cost layouts that don't cause you to make a mess in your trousers, go from there. Have fun.
> 
> for the record, I'm embarrassingly well past this point.


Waaayyyy past.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 25, 2020)

I understand where you're coming from but am a bit confused. Which $3,000 knife do you recommend? There aren't a lot of those right?


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## ian (Jul 25, 2020)

He means buy a few till you reach $3k. But don’t even do that. Just buy a couple of < $500 knives, play with them for a bit, then sell if you need more cash and play with some others. Too much talk, not enough action. You won’t appreciate more expensive knives until you’ve played with less expensive ones for a while. Or like me you’ll just realize that spending more than $600 on a knife is actually really stupid, and you’ll be content with knives that are valued at less than that for the rest of your life.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jul 25, 2020)

No, he meant buy a $3k knife. I have one if your interested.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 25, 2020)

Oops, I got it now. I'm asking more questions because I am not in CONUS and selling knives to try something else is more complicated for me.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 25, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Waaayyyy past.


Its a rabbit hole thats for sure. Luckily it took me many years to acquire tolerance.....


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## Corradobrit1 (Jul 25, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> No, he meant buy a $3k knife. I have one if your interested.


Thats not how I read it. Set a $3K budget and buy as many knives that fit the preferred specs, profile etc. Then sell the outliers and repeat until you hone your preferences. Pretty much describes how I've progressed.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jul 25, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Thats not how I read it. Set a $3K budget and buy as many knives that fit the preferred specs, profile etc. Then sell the outliers and repeat until you hone your preferences. Pretty much describes how I've progressed.


I know, just being annoying.


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## parbaked (Jul 25, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> I am not in CONUS and selling knives to try something else is more complicated for me.


Go to Razorsharp and play with their knives and pick their brains...


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## captaincaed (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> Oops, I got it now. I'm asking more questions because I am not in CONUS and selling knives to try something else is more complicated for me.


This is a no joke issue, especially because international shipping adds to your budget considerably. You can also watch video contributors. There's and old school and a new school, both with their own biases. 

If you're cash poor and time rich, you can also try to participate in some pass-around threads, but you'll have better luck being accepted once you're better known and have posted some of your own content.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> You can also watch video contributors. There's and old school and a new school, both with their own biases.


Yes, I saw that the people on this forum strongly recommend that new members watch Burrfection videos and memorize all the recommendations there as gospel truths, especially reviews of Dalstrong knives.


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## soigne_west (Jul 26, 2020)

I’d start a which knife should I buy thread. Set a budget and pick some qualities you want in your knife. And use it... daily, for a while. Hang out here ask more questions. Figure out what you like and don’t like about your knife. Save more money and narrow down what you might want your next knife to be... repeat. One day when things are back to normal international shipping won’t be such a big deal. It’s just scary right now.

Don’t start spending tons of money until you figure out what your preferences are. Don’t base your purchases solely off what other people want because we all like different stuff. Don’t set out to have the best sh*t ASAP because it’s a pretty cool journey, don’t rush it.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

That's what I'm doing, but is there a "benchmark" knife you would recommend for this? There are a lot of which knife should I buy threads but most are constrained by a budget and I'm interested in understanding the spectrum before setting a budget (or not).


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## Nemo (Jul 26, 2020)

Or you could do what I did today: buy a $120 AUS8 monosteel knife, thin it aggressively, ease spine and choil, refinish to a mirror polish (performance would likely be better with a semi- or quasi- mirror but I was on a roll) then sharpen on 1K then 3K. Then marvel at how it (slightly) out performs a similarly profiled $370 high end R2 knife (admittedly with a factory edge). 

It really demonstrated how important the grind is to good knife performance.

I'm pretty sure the edge retention won't be as good, though.


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## josemartinlopez (Jul 26, 2020)

A chef friend did suggest the same and said if you have good steel, you can be your own sharpener and customize the factory edge all you want.


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## captaincaed (Jul 26, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Or you could do what I did today: buy a $120 AUS8 monosteel knife, thin it aggressively, ease spine and choil, refinish to a mirror polish (performance would likely be better with a semi- or quasi- mirror but I was on a roll) then sharpen on 1K then 3K. Then marvel at how it (slightly) out performs a similarly profiled $370 high end R2 knife (admittedly with a factory edge).
> 
> It really demonstrated how important the grind is to good knife performance.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the edge retention won't be as good, though.


Which one did you grind? I just worked a Shun over like it owed me money, and was surprised how well it works now. Ugly as my backside, but still.


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## Nemo (Jul 26, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> Which one did you grind? I just worked a Shun over like it owed me money, and was surprised how well it works now. Ugly as my backside, but still.


Sakai Takayuki Aus8.

No way was it worth my time to spend 6 hours on it... but... It's a great way to teach yourself a lot about grinds, so was definitely worth it from that point of view.

Second time I've made a basic AUS8 into a highly performing knife (first was a Fuji Kanefusa FKM). Well worth doing for any knife nut, just for the experience.


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## Nemo (Jul 26, 2020)

josemartinlopez said:


> A chef friend did suggest the same and said if you have good steel, you can be your own sharpener and customize the factory edge all you want.


Not just the edge- you also need to be cognisant of the grind behind the edge.


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## juice (Jul 26, 2020)

Nemo said:


> No way was it worth my time to spend 6 hours on it... but... It's a great way to teach yourself a lot about grinds, so was definitely worth it from that point of view.


"Worth" is a multi-functional word, indeed.

Which knife did you work on?


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## Nemo (Jul 26, 2020)

juice said:


> "Worth" is a multi-functional word, indeed.
> 
> Which knife did you work on?


See post #90


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## juice (Jul 26, 2020)

Nemo said:


> See post #90


I'd seen that, I just hadn't seen any for $120


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## Nemo (Jul 26, 2020)

juice said:


> I'd seen that, I just hadn't seen any for $120











Sakai Takayuki S/S AUS8 Santoku 180mm


Sakai Takayuki Budget 2 Piece Set Boxed




www.knivesandstones.com.au





There is 240mm gyuto going for $150.

The Fujiwarra Kanefusa FKM (also) that I have previously thinned was fairly similar in geometry and also performed much better after thinning. I think I bought it (a 270mm gyuto) for $130 a bit over 4 years ago, but they are a but more exxie now.


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## juice (Jul 26, 2020)

Nemo said:


> There is 240mm gyuto going for $150.
> 
> The Fujiwarra Kanefusa FKM (also) that I have previously thinned was fairly similar in geometry and also performed much better after thinning. I think I bought it (a 270mm gyuto) for $130 a bit over 4 years ago, but they are a but more exxie now.


Noice.

I was beginning to doubt my Google-fu after not being able to find the $120 one 

I think my next Gyuto is going to be 180mm, maybe a bit smaller. My 200 (admittedly, a Shun) is a bit unwieldy at times. Or maybe I'll just get a petty, or something completely different.


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## Nemo (Jul 26, 2020)

juice said:


> Noice.
> 
> I was beginning to doubt my Google-fu after not being able to find the $120 one
> 
> I think my next Gyuto is going to be 180mm, maybe a bit smaller. My 200 (admittedly, a Shun) is a bit unwieldy at times. Or maybe I'll just get a petty, or something completely different.


Do you use a pinch grip? It effectively shortens the knife by circa 30mm but gives much better control, especially of rotation.


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## juice (Jul 26, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Do you use a pinch grip? It effectively shortens the knife by circa 30mm but gives much better control, especially of rotation.


Almost always (by which I mean "unless I forget and go back to holding it like a club"  )


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## JayS20 (Jul 26, 2020)

You are way too overthinking it and bombarding the forum with questions like this. I get it when I started I kept reading and reading until I took the dive. Since I work with knives professionally I already knew what I kinda liked since I tried quite a lot at work. There is no perfect knife and everyone prefers different things. Also your preferences might change over time. You live and learn. 
The knife and your preferences depend on a lot of things like your cutting style, your pinch grip, the height you are cutting at, what you cut the most...
Take the leap and go from there don't be afraid and you will find many great and different knives you wil like for different reasons.

My recommendation was start with a good but not too expensive knife.
There is a thread about best knives under 300$. A Yoshikane, Kaeru, Shigeki Tanaka from K&S or Wakui is a great start and already pretty much everything you need. With the knives you own you will learn what you like and what you don't. The knife game is a journey, sit back and enjoy the ride. 
Take it easy.


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## Benuser (Jul 26, 2020)

JayS20 said:


> You are way too overthinking it and bombarding the forum with questions like this. I get it when I started I kept reading and reading until I took the dive. Since I work with knives professionally I already knew what I kinda liked since I tried quite a lot at work. There is no perfect knife and everyone prefers different things. Also your preferences might change over time. You live and learn.
> The knife and your preferences depend on a lot of things like your cutting style, your pinch grip, the height you are cutting at, what you cut the most...
> Take the leap and go from there don't be afraid and you will find many great and different knives you wil like for different reasons.
> 
> ...


I would go even further. Get a simple, middle-of-the-road carbon steel blade. Think a Misono Swedish. Get used to its asymmetry and have fun maintaining it. You may explore and develop your preferences and fine-tune your technique, before spending a lot of money on a great knife that perhaps doesn't exactly fit your needs.


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## Nemo (Jul 26, 2020)

Benuser said:


> I would go even further. Get a simple, middle-of-the-road carbon steel blade. Think a Misono Swedish. Get used to its asymmetry and have fun maintaining it. You may explore and develop your preferences and fine-tune your technique, before spending a lot of money on a great knife that perhaps doesn't exactly fit your needs.


Yep, sometimes the knives that you don't spend too much on are the ones that you aren't too scared to work on, so you spend a lot of time and effort on them, devloping a connection to them and in the process learning a lot from them.


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## Cliff (Tuesday at 9:28 AM)

I have way too many knives, but always come back to my Misono Swedish. It's like an old pair of jeans. Maybe not the hardest steel or the most refined grinds, but it's what I learned on. If I have to throw down and get stuff done, there's nothing better. I also like Moritaka and Munetoshi precisely for the reasons above. They get better with use, as I dial them in for my preferences.


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## wcothran (Tuesday at 12:44 PM)

+1 for @Cliff - there's not a lot I'd do to improve the knives I continuously grab


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## shauk (Wednesday at 6:33 PM)

josemartinlopez said:


> I'd like to start a thread so that I can visualize a future grail knife, general purpose, for personal home cooking. Not something to buy right away but to keep in mind as I explore my preferences with Japanese knives. Also interested in what questions I need to ask myself to visualize a personal grail knife beyond a specific knife recommendation. I browsed several other threads but couldn't find one about visualizing your personal grail knife, hence this thread.
> 
> LOCATION
> Singapore. The hot and humid island at the equator featured in "Crazy Rich Asians".
> ...



I've had nothing but wonderful experience with my Hitohira Togashi 240 in stainless clad (Hitohira Togashi Blue #1 Stainless Clad Gyuto 240mm Taihei Ebony Handle) ABSOLUTE pleasure to look at and use.

Holds and edge really well, only light sharpening throughout my 12 months of use, fit & finish is impeccable, stainless clad, and most importantly the grind really slides through food.

Being a wide bevel it does stick a little, but it does not annoy me at all.


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