# Càido/cleaver questions



## Kamelion

Dear Forum,

after years of reading and learning from you amazing people here on the forum it ist time for my first post. Having been inspired about cleavers, and especially from the posts of Andy777  thank you  I have finally bought one to start with. Living in Germany I found no possibility to find a Chan Chi Kee, so after reading a recommendation here I took the chance of buying a simple knife in order to at least try the cai dao style out. It was extremely cheap, took 3 weeks to ship, but is finally there. 

Still though, I have some questions about the cleaver styles I hope that you could help med to sort out. I will use the CCK number series to refer to the styles, but it a general question that applies to the whole càid&#257;o range.

*1. Terminology:*
Fuchsia dunlop writes about the cleaver, and is referring to the &#33756;&#20992; Càid&#257;o. Google translate tells me this means either kitchen knife wht written as &#33756;&#20992; without blank, and as vegetable knife when written with blanks. 

One commenter, however, states: »The lady of pic was holding a knife calls &#26705;&#20992; in chinese, not a &#33756;&#20992;. &#26705;&#20992; is a knife with very thin blade and light, and can not chop any bones. &#33756;&#20992; is designed to uses its fronter blade to slice vegetables, meats, the rear blade to chop small bones, like chicken bone, spareribs. &#26705;&#20992; and &#33756;&#20992; are quite different.«

This seems to be true in the sense that the CCK130* series is spelled &#26705;&#20992; and looks like the knife she is holding. But what does &#26705;&#20992; mean? GTranslate only says Sang knife, but it sure looks like a vegetable slicer. And the &#33756;&#20992; sign is for CCK a chopper, but the 110* series is spelled &#29255;&#20992; and that seems to mean »piece knife.« To say the least, I am a bit confused, does anyone know what is going on? 

*2. Types*
If I have understood things correcly, the 110* series is _not_ a chopper, but rather as thin and light as the 130* series, just with e deeper blad (approx. 1:2 proporton, against the the 130* 1:2,4 proportion). Is this correct? 

It also seems, that fuchsia mostly, as in this excellent post, actually mostly uses the 110* series, and not the 130*. This would reinforce my guess that both these series are thin, lightweight, with almost the sam purposes, but different proportions?

*3. Finishing*
Is there a special reason the 1:2,4 knifes (130*) are almost always laquered black on half the blade whereas the 1:2 knifes (110*) are not? This applies also to my SmartWfe cleaver (I will post pictures of it).

*4. Steel*
Is it the same steel in 110* and 130*?

*5. Patina*
Is there any reason to force a patina? To me, the aestetics are not primarily important, and I would enjoy a nice patina. I am more interested in not having the food smell and taste of metal. Is a forced patina better than a naturally developed. Can I force a patina later, even if a natural has developed, or must I do it when the knife is new?

I hope you do not oppose to my lengthy post, and that you have oversight with my inability to express myself very well in English.

Regards,
Johannes


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## Kamelion

Here are two pictures of my SmartWife cleaver, which I bought for 17 USD.

I do not know what the steel is. The leaflet tells me, the other knives are made out of 8Cr13MoV, 3Cr13 and 5Cr15MoV respectively, wherefore I guess that my knife is made of simple carbon steel.


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## XooMG

Names of knives are not well standardized and differ in different regions of China. Popular word has it that southern cooks specialize their knives more, while in the north a more generic single knife is used.

Mulberry knife...I don't know since the term isn't used here...but popular internet story is that Empress Dowager Cixi didn't like the local Haining name of "leaf knife" _yedao_ &#33865;&#20992; (supposedly to cut mulberry leaves for feeding to silkworms) because her family name was _Yehenara_ &#33865;&#36203;&#37027;&#25289;, so it was changed to "mulberry knife" _sangdao_ &#26705;&#20992;.

I'm no expert on the variants...but I've never seen _caidao_ &#33756;&#20992; used to describe any specific type...rather being a generic lay term. Where I am, _piandao_ &#29255;&#20992; is your thin slicer, _wenwudao_ &#25991;&#27494;&#20992; is your multi-use knife with a thicker spine, and _gudao_ &#39592;&#20992; has many other names and subvariants but are obviously heavier duty.


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## ManofTaste

_Cai_ means cabbage or, generically, vegetables, so a _caidao_ is a vegetable knife. Your knife looks comparable in thinness to my CCK 1103, which works beautifully on vegetables and boneless meat but would be damaged by bones. (_Gu_ in _gudao_, by the way, means bone, so _gudao_.)


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## mlau

Being Cantonese, I'll take a slice at this.

In general we have two types of "cleavers": 
1. General use/veggie cleavers-- this is used for most cooking at home and at restaurants, and comes in a fairly wide variation of thickness and weight.

2. Bone splitting/butcher cleavers-- thick, heavy, relatively blunt cleavers that can split a cow femur all day long. These are meant to be abused all day long, and should be softer steel. This is more of a specialist knife.

Chinese cooking cutlery is almost the opposite to Japanese. Instead of using multiple specialized blades, we use one knife for everything.

Arguably 2 blades--some guys use a paring knife for small stuff.

However, most classically trained Chinese chefs will use a general use Chinese cleaver for everything including small garnishes (generically, a caidao, veggie cleaver--although we just call it a dao).


Xoomg, are you in Taiwan?


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## mlau

Re: patina

Generally with carbon blades, a patina can help slow down/prevent rust. 

Forcing a patina is creating a less reactive layer on the steel to protect it.

This is the same regardless of Japanese, French, German, or Chinese steel.


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## XooMG

mlau said:


> Xoomg, are you in Taiwan?


Yes, so I'm a bit reluctant to discuss knives used in various parts of China.


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## Keith Sinclair

mlau said:


> Re: patina
> 
> Generally with carbon blades, a patina can help slow down/prevent rust.
> 
> Forcing a patina is creating a less reactive layer on the steel to protect it.
> 
> This is the same regardless of Japanese, French, German, or Chinese steel.



mlau how much are carbon cleavers still used in China? I used carbon cleavers bought in Chinatown here because they were better than the stainless. Easy to sharpen & good edges.


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## Noodle Soup

I don't know about the ratio of stainless to carbon use among the real pros, I've saw both in use there. But among about everybody else, stainless is the first choice. One of my instructors over there told me he couldn't understand why anyone would want to use a knife that rusted. What ever their tools lack they make up for with knife handling skills.


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## Kamelion

Thank you all for the answers!


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## Kamelion

XooMG said:


> Names of knives are not well standardized and differ in different regions of China. Popular word has it that southern cooks specialize their knives more, while in the north a more generic single knife is used.
> 
> Mulberry knife...I don't know since the term isn't used here...but popular internet story is that Empress Dowager Cixi didn't like the local Haining name of "leaf knife" _yedao_ &#33865;&#20992; (supposedly to cut mulberry leaves for feeding to silkworms) because her family name was _Yehenara_ &#33865;&#36203;&#37027;&#25289;, so it was changed to "mulberry knife" _sangdao_ &#26705;&#20992;.
> 
> I'm no expert on the variants...but I've never seen _caidao_ &#33756;&#20992; used to describe any specific type...rather being a generic lay term. Where I am, _piandao_ &#29255;&#20992; is your thin slicer, _wenwudao_ &#25991;&#27494;&#20992; is your multi-use knife with a thicker spine, and _gudao_ &#39592;&#20992; has many other names and subvariants but are obviously heavier duty.



Thank you for the background; very interesting indeed. I did not meditave over why my knife was labelled mulberry knife.

However, I do not understand the last categorization. The 110* series, that is often described as multi purpose, actuall has, according to Andy777, an even lower weight per cm², but of course a somewhat higher weight in total. Or did I misunderstand you?


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## Kamelion

Noodle Soup said:


> I don't know about the ratio of stainless to carbon use among the real pros, I've saw both in use there. But among about everybody else, stainless is the first choice. One of my instructors over there told me he couldn't understand why anyone would want to use a knife that rusted. What ever their tools lack they make up for with knife handling skills.



Thank you for your answer! Interesting in deed; I had the impression, after reading here and there, that many professional chefs, in HK and the area at least, do use the CCK, preferrabely the 110* series, that, to my understanding also is made of carbon steel. Is it not the same alloy?

Do you know of any good chinese brands or stores for the kind of knives you are talking about. Here in Germany I did find a generic generic stainless steel dao in a asia shop, but the quality was extremely poor.


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## Noodle Soup

Strange as it may seem, I've never seen a CCK being used in any of the places in China I've been. I kind of have the impression most use a local brand where ever you go. 
Have you tried the Chefs Mall Chinese website? They have about everything CCK makes plus a number of other brands. I've been happy with all the knives I've bought off them.


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## XooMG

Kamelion said:


> Thank you for the background; very interesting indeed. I did not meditave over why my knife was labelled mulberry knife.
> 
> However, I do not understand the last categorization. The 110* series, that is often described as multi purpose, actuall has, according to Andy777, an even lower weight per cm², but of course a somewhat higher weight in total. Or did I misunderstand you?


I have zero experience with CCK products and cannot speak of them confidently. I was relating what the nomenclature describes in my market (Taiwan) which is not completely consistent with CCK's products (nor really internally consistent).

It seems in CCK's stuff, the 110* &#29255;&#20992; are bigger taller knives. I do not know how thin they are and have seen some conflicting numbers. The 130* &#26705;&#20992; are shorter in length and height, and I am not certain how the thickness compares, but they seem like light knives. The 120* &#25991;&#27494;&#20992; are much thicker, I think, but are still not for heavy bone use.

In the limited market I have access to, a &#29255;&#20992; is 1.5-2mm thick generally, a &#25991;&#27494;&#20992; can be 3-5mm, and above that and you're getting into &#39592;&#20992;/&#21057;&#20992; territory. &#26705;&#20992; is only a term I've seen for imported HK or some mainland blades...never a local product.

Right now I'm using a Taiwanese &#29255;&#20992; that is 19.5cm*10cm and 1.6mm thick for much of the blade, and another smaller &#29255;&#20992; that is 17.5cm*8cm and about 1.8mm. I treat them as general use vegetable knives, but they are finesse knives and I'm a slow-cutting geek, and most kitchens would use a thicker heavier knife for general purposes.


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## schanop

When I looked at CCK 110x, carbon steel, 111x, stainless steel, and 130x at the CCK shop in HK, all of these models are thin slicer where 130x is a bit smaller in height, length, and hence weight, which makes them easier to maneuver. Black finish probably helps keeping production cost down a little bit as well.

Leung Tim, another well known brand, has similar product lines for this thin slicer as well.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

"stainless steel dao in a asia shop, but the quality was extremely poor."

The J*d* Temple one? Yeah, tried it, I found edge retention vs sharpening effort needed ... slightly disappointing.

The Kiwi #850? Very different grind, great as general purpose, hack sh#t in half cleavers but not as a dao.

Some carry vietnamese carbon steel ones, they are considered to have great blades but dismal F&F and reactivity, needing a lot of rework.

Dictum has a stainless sanmai for around 60, have not tried it.


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## Noodle Soup

My experience in Viet Nam was it was hard to find real Chinese style cleavers. They have their own styles of food prep blades that are much different I did buy a cleaver in Hanoi but it was the first I had found. Carbon steel and it is one of my favorites, lots of rocker in the edge. You are right, fit and finish is a bit rough compared to most Chinese. That is not something I care about if the knife works.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Not if you get a level of "reactive" that makes you wonder whether it's reactivity, paint coming off or a moldy onion.


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## Kamelion

schanop said:


> When I looked at CCK 110x, carbon steel, 111x, stainless steel, and 130x at the CCK shop in HK, all of these models are thin slicer where 130x is a bit smaller in height, length, and hence weight, which makes them easier to maneuver. Black finish probably helps keeping production cost down a little bit as well.



That is what I thougt. 

But I do not understand how the black lacquer holds production costs down. I thought the 130* series was roughly just som much cheaper than the 110* that is made out of material cost. Or is the material under the black coating finished in another way?

Could it be that the black lacquer is nothing else than an clear visual sign to the chef which knife is which, if using two in the same session or kitchen, e.g. one for all raw meat and one for veggies (130* and the like) to avoid cross contamination?


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## XooMG

Kamelion said:


> That is what I thougt.
> 
> But I do not understand how the black lacquer holds production costs down. I thought the 130* series was roughly just som much cheaper than the 110* that is made out of material cost. Or is the material under the black coating finished in another way?
> 
> Could it be that the black lacquer is nothing else than an clear visual sign to the chef which knife is which, if using two in the same session or kitchen, e.g. one for all raw meat and one for veggies (130* and the like) to avoid cross contamination?


I do not see where it's indicated that the black finish is lacquer. It seems to be a basic oxidized surface. The blade blank is ground and hardened, and then the edge is ground away, removing the black finish. It seems they cosmetically take some of the black finish off to make a clean straight line.

The oxide surface protects the knife from rust a bit, looks decent, and is slightly less work to leave intact. There are several possible reasons to strip it off on other models, but kurouchi finishes are less common in professional use (where they may be frequently scrubbed, for example).


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## MAS4T0

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Not if you get a level of "reactive" that makes you wonder whether it's reactivity, paint coming off or a moldy onion.



Have you ever had one that bad?

That sounds more like Sodium than cheap carbon steel.


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## Noodle Soup

Carbon steel rusting depends on the exact alloy, hardness and polish, not on if it is cheap or not. In general, all carbon rusts. The alternative is one of the stainless alloys but they rust too under the right conditions.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Didn't catch fire 

I'm aware of carbon differences and patina - but none of my other carbons will behave on an onion like it was a lime. Well, finish plays a role here... reused part of that blade to cut another from it, which catches a great patina when reasonably polished (which the original knife was not).


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## MAS4T0

Noodle Soup said:


> Carbon steel rusting depends on the exact alloy, hardness and polish, not on if it is cheap or not. In general, all carbon rusts. The alternative is one of the stainless alloys but they rust too under the right conditions.



I'm very well aware of that... I didn't mean to imply that a more expensive steel will be less reactive.

By "cheap" I meant specifically rather impure steel which has no intentional alloying (other than Carbon) but relatively high Sulphur and Phosphorus content; I presume that this is the type of steel in common usage by rural smiths in Vietnam. 

Cheapness does play a factor though as the steel won't be as clean (increased Sulphur increases reactivity).



LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Didn't catch fire
> 
> I'm aware of carbon differences and patina - but none of my other carbons will behave on an onion like it was a lime. Well, finish plays a role here... reused part of that blade to cut another from it, which catches a great patina when reasonably polished (which the original knife was not).



Thanks for the explanation.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Though it is interesting that these (vietnamese) blades might indeed be diff-tempered (I might post a pic when I'll have fixed the polish from my DMT mistake): They definitely are far harder in the edge region, but not soft at the spine (edge will go to chips when filed, spine will lose a very strenous battle against a 2 foot bolt cutter or aviation snips), so not likely to be shallow warikomi.


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## Noodle Soup

I'm afraid I don't know what "rural smiths" in Viet Nam use. All the knives I saw looked to have been massed produced by regional cutlery factories.


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## MAS4T0

Noodle Soup said:


> I'm afraid I don't know what "rural smiths" in Viet Nam use. All the knives I saw looked to have been massed produced by regional cutlery factories.



In that case I'm sorry for the confusion.

For some reason I thought that in the post I replied to initially, 1K was talking about a handmade knife from a local blacksmith in SE Asia.

I also just noticed that you're writing Vietnam as Viet Nam, can I ask why?


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## Noodle Soup

Been there, done that a long time ago. I earned the right to write it anyway I want shall we say. Went back a 3 or 4 years ago. Won't be doing that again without a very good reason.


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## Noodle Soup

Not having thought about it much before, but there seems to be plenty of official Viet sites that call it Viet Nam too.


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## MAS4T0

Noodle Soup said:


> Not having thought about it much before, but there seems to be plenty of official Viet sites that call it Viet Nam too.



I'd guess that it's because their language is monosyllabic.


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## XooMG

MAS4T0 said:


> I'd guess that it's because their language is monosyllabic.


Yes, kind of. The name is two words. _Nam_ &#21335; southern, _Viet_ &#36234; tribe(s) or ethnic groups of southern China. Early name was written as Nam Viet...and more recently as Viet Nam, or just merged as Vietnam.

Still, convention is to merge names...people do not generally write Bei Jing, Tai Wan, or Kyo To. How about Hong Kong (since 1926) though? Conventions need not define all cases, and Viet Nam is common (C&#7897;ng hòa Xã h&#7897;i ch&#7911; ngh&#297;a Vi&#7879;t Nam).


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## MAS4T0

XooMG said:


> Yes, kind of. The name is two words. _Nam_ &#21335; southern, _Viet_ &#36234; tribe(s) or ethnic groups of southern China. Early name was written as Nam Viet...and more recently as Viet Nam, or just merged as Vietnam.
> 
> Still, convention is to merge names...people do not generally write Bei Jing, Tai Wan, or Kyo To. How about Hong Kong (since 1926) though? Conventions need not define all cases, and Viet Nam is common (C&#7897;ng hòa Xã h&#7897;i ch&#7911; ngh&#297;a Vi&#7879;t Nam).



Thanks!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

The kind that is sometimes sold in german asian stores looks rurally made indeed. Usually considered as project knives.

Common importer: http://www.authentic-blades.com/


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## Noodle Soup

Nice collection of Viet blades. I have never seen many of those outside Nam. As for looks, most knives in Viet Nam look like they came out of an old Soviet Union state owned factory where nobody cared if you like the fit and finish or not. Those longer, square point knives are what most Viets use instead of a Chinese style cleaver.


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## mlau

XooMG said:


> Yes, so I'm a bit reluctant to discuss knives used in various parts of China.



I'd think that you have more authority on the subject than I do.
I was trained by my mom, who went to culinary school in Hong Kong (and also learned some stuff from her dad, who was a notable chef from Fujian).

My understanding is the following:
1. Rich Chinese people escaped communists in China -> They left for Taiwan and Hong Kong, and brought their chefs with them
2. Rich Taiwan people escaped from Taiwan (to get their kids a better education/hide embezzled money/start a business) --> They left for Canada (mostly Vancouver) and the US, and brought their chefs with them.

Personally, I felt that food in Taiwan was more authentic Chinese than the stuff I had in China.
At the Chinese places I went to, there was a ton of MSG. The overall execution was not as good as what I tried in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Vancouver, and yes--California.

Some places where different--I'd went to some high class places in Xian and Beijing as a kid.


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## MAS4T0

mlau said:


> I'd think that you have more authority on the subject than I do.
> I was trained by my mom, who went to culinary school in Hong Kong (and also learned some stuff from her dad, who was a notable chef from Fujian).
> 
> My understanding is the following:
> 1. Rich Chinese people escaped communists in China -> They left for Taiwan and Hong Kong, and brought their chefs with them
> 2. Rich Taiwan people escaped from Taiwan (to get their kids a better education/hide embezzled money/start a business) --> They left for Canada (mostly Vancouver) and the US, and brought their chefs with them.
> 
> Personally, I felt that food in Taiwan was more authentic Chinese than the stuff I had in China.
> At the Chinese places I went to, there was a ton of MSG. The overall execution was not as good as what I tried in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Vancouver, and yes--California.
> 
> Some places where different--I'd went to some high class places in Xian and Beijing as a kid.



I have a question and maybe it doesn't belong on here...

I thought that in general, the "rich" in pre-communist China were the landowners, so if they left they would also have left their land (and therefore their wealth) behind. I realise that the land was (or would have been) acquired by the state in land reforms anyhow, but my point/ question is this; when they fled China how would they have retained their wealth and their staff?


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