# Bulat on KickStarter



## oldcookie (Jun 27, 2016)

Just saw this on KS

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/840887253/bulat-your-go-to-kitchen-knife?ref=home_recs

What do you guys think?


----------



## brainsausage (Jun 28, 2016)

Looks like the same crap I used to see in big box stores 10+ years ago before I knew what good knives were.


----------



## James (Jun 28, 2016)

Looks like a VG10 damascus wusthof. Wouldn't be bad for people who are set on a German knife profile


----------



## ynot1985 (Jun 28, 2016)

Rockwell of 57-59...hmmm


----------



## Johnny.B.Good (Jun 28, 2016)

They've raised over $200k!


----------



## Kreydor (Jun 28, 2016)

I like the look of the olive wood handle.


----------



## AaronE (Jun 28, 2016)

Well, who hasn't used a Shun and thought, "Gosh, if only this thing had a full bolster, it would the holy grail!"


----------



## Dave Martell (Jun 28, 2016)

I want to kick my own ass for seeing this.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Jun 28, 2016)

Yawn, if only people knew what a real knife is


----------



## Godslayer (Jun 28, 2016)

Meh, for 80 bucks you could do a hell of a lot worse, will I be buying one... no, is it better than my grandmas knives... probably. Honestly if they took the full bolster off, I would probably get them all one, it's something an older person would like, looks ergonomic and has a lower hrc, so it probably wouldn't be ultra fragile. Probably on par with an FKM stainless or the likes.


----------



## Matus (Jun 28, 2016)

But why would they use a name 'bulat' for it? To my knowledge that is how wootz steel is called in Russia ...


----------



## ecchef (Jun 28, 2016)

Just another bearded hipster with a business plan.. :help3:
Who cares if it's not authentic bulat; he believes it and it sounds cool.
A sign that the end of days is nigh, I fear.


----------



## DanHumphrey (Jun 28, 2016)

How is it possible for this many people to sell this many crummy knives on Kickstarter? This kind of thing just keeps getting posted over and over.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 28, 2016)

210000 already for ... just another VG10 damascus? Don't mind VG10 damascus, but there is no lack of makers in that segment. And the price doesn't look uncommon either; actually, going for that low a hardness but that sturdy an edge seems a bit underwhelming.

And calling anything bulat that isn't made of bulat ... you have my respect. Errr, make that "have some respect". Something like that on the market will make it more difficult in the future for people who want an actual bulat knife. I know, we are in a society where we are entitled to wear whatever sports team or band on our shirts without even giving a tentative damn about music or sports, and insult anyone who actually mistakes it for a certain taste in music or sports expressed in that fashion statement... but honestly, it sucks that way and has sucked for a while now. That merciless "who cares about the roots when there is a bigger market for firewood" attitude is kind of fascinating, spitefully empowering, kind of a turnon to the nihilist in you, but... toxic. Stop stuffing channels.

Another $20 OEM 1000/6000 stone on the market could be positive news though. But why a goal of $300000 before doing the stone... either you make a better stone for VG10 than what exists (I think if that's your plan, now you're talking, bugger the knife and do the stone!) or all that will be done and should be done is researching an OEM contract.


----------



## Dan P. (Jun 28, 2016)

The guy's voice sounds like that of an 18 year old trying to talk his girlfriend into doing something wierd in the bedroom. *shudders!*


----------



## Matus (Jun 28, 2016)

Dan P. said:


> The guy's voice sounds like that of an 18 year old trying to talk his girlfriend into doing something wierd in the bedroom. *shudders!*



You mean that he sounds 'over-motivated' ?


----------



## XooMG (Jun 28, 2016)

So what exactly is wrong with the knife?


----------



## DanHumphrey (Jun 28, 2016)

Besides being soft VG-10 with a ton of belly, a full bolster, and a pile of breathless hype?


----------



## XooMG (Jun 28, 2016)

(removed for lack of civility, sorry)


----------



## DanHumphrey (Jun 28, 2016)

I highly doubt anyone here is going to buy one just to have "useful knowledge" that it's not what they want. Are you going to buy one?


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 28, 2016)

Hehe, that could be an interesting marketing strategy ... "You want to buy one, so you can tell everyone with certainty and confidence that it is subpar/entry level/a trainwreck"...


----------



## Haburn (Jun 28, 2016)

I don't understand why these Kickstarters get so much hate from this forum. Their product isn't designed to meet the needs or wants of a kitchen knife enthusiast. On the other hand a Shig, Kato, and most of the respected knives around here probably wouldn't be well received the general public due to maintenance and need for proper handling. 
Two different types of buyers and two different types of products.


----------



## Dan P. (Jun 28, 2016)

post deleted


----------



## Dan P. (Jun 28, 2016)

Haburn said:


> I don't understand why these Kickstarters get so much hate from this forum. Their product isn't designed to meet the needs or wants of a kitchen knife enthusiast. On the other hand a Shig, Kato, and most of the respected knives around here probably wouldn't be well received the general public due to maintenance and need for proper handling.
> Two different types of buyers and two different types of products.



I'm very tempted to do one myself. $211,000 is nothing to be sneezed at, they must be doing something right.


----------



## DanHumphrey (Jun 28, 2016)

Dan P. said:


> I'm very tempted to do one myself. $211,000 is nothing to be sneezed at, they must be doing something right.



I'd actually be interested in seeing what you or another respected maker could accomplish, though I'd worry about how you intended to produce that many knives in a reasonable amount of time. My issues with the Kickstarter knives is what do they actually bring to the table over any other VG10 knife? There are a lot of those that are cheaper. Why not get a Tojiro instead?


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 28, 2016)

@Haburn Naming it Bulat if isn't made of bulat or a comparable material appears insincere to me. You wouldn't trust or like a brand named "Shirogami" that sold standard 440A blades, capitalizing on the fact some people might have heard the term and remember it was associated with quality, would you?


----------



## AllanP (Jun 28, 2016)

De Ja Vu, I feel like these gets posted every once in a while.

Maybe I should do a "start-up" knife next year and get a few hundred thousand, hope y'all will support me


----------



## JMJones (Jun 28, 2016)

Haburn said:


> I don't understand why these Kickstarters get so much hate from this forum. Their product isn't designed to meet the needs or wants of a kitchen knife enthusiast. On the other hand a Shig, Kato, and most of the respected knives around here probably wouldn't be well received the general public due to maintenance and need for proper handling.
> Two different types of buyers and two different types of products.



I agree that this knife is not for kitchen knife enthusiasts, but I would think the guys designing it would be enthusiasts. And if they are why on earth did they choose that awful full bolster? That is the only thing to me that stands out as just terrible.


----------



## XooMG (Jun 28, 2016)

JMJones said:


> I agree that this knife is not for kitchen knife enthusiasts, but I would think the guys designing it would be enthusiasts. And if they are why on earth did they choose that awful full bolster? That is the only thing to me that stands out as just terrible.


The bolster/guard doesn't reach the edge. I wonder how far away it terminates, and if it would interfere with sharpening.


----------



## alterwisser (Jun 28, 2016)

Haburn said:


> I don't understand why these Kickstarters get so much hate from this forum. Their product isn't designed to meet the needs or wants of a kitchen knife enthusiast. On the other hand a Shig, Kato, and most of the respected knives around here probably wouldn't be well received the general public due to maintenance and need for proper handling.
> Two different types of buyers and two different types of products.



I agree. We tend to be a bit snobby around here when it comes to knives (daaaah), but given the target audience and the crap those folks are using, this can't be THAT bad. I mean, kudos: he did a great job convincing people to give him quite a few bucks.

Would a Tojiro DP be a smarter/cheaper choice? For sure, but it's not marketed In a way for regular users to know about it. Plus: most folks will want some "bling" when spending a little more on a knife, and the Tojiro sure as hell does not sparkle LOL.

Every time there's someone on Kickstarter with a knife project, we ***** and complain here (sorry, just having an honest day, excuse my German traits lol). So if anyone is interested in doing something about it and develop a REAL knife for the masses, Kickstarter and all, PM me... I'd be happy to join a group to get that project going and can help with insight from a good related startup I invested in.

Thanks. Happy Tuesday


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 28, 2016)

I guess style choices (Bolsters, Profiles) ... that's a Les Paul vs HSH Strat vs Tele discussion... 

But isn't someone marketing a (probably alright) knife with terms that would suggest very exceptional material and quality (bulat), suggesting his VG10 dam is so much better than other VG10 dam, the actual snob respectively snob enabler?


----------



## Noodle Soup (Jun 28, 2016)

All these kickstarter projects always seem like a cross between carnival slicer/dicer pitchman and a "save the poor kids in Africa/South America" charity trying to shame you into donating. The world is full of knifemaking companies at every price level. I can think of no reason why a kickstarter is going to produce something better than what is already available on the market.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 28, 2016)

I guess being part of a fashion being made is sexy in itself these days... getting some "designer getting filthy rich" scent to rub off on you...

I love how part of the hipster culture remixes tradition with a modern viewpoint - but appropriating symbols and terms in a way that disrespects/damages them (or abuses your respect for marketing purposes!) is a very unwelcome aspect.


----------



## James (Jun 28, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> So if anyone is interested in doing something about it and develop a REAL knife for the masses, Kickstarter and all, PM me... I'd be happy to join a group to get that project going and can help with insight from a good related startup I invested in.
> 
> Thanks. Happy Tuesday



I'd love to see this happen


----------



## oldcookie (Jun 28, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> I agree. We tend to be a bit snobby around here when it comes to knives (daaaah), but given the target audience and the crap those folks are using, this can't be THAT bad. I mean, kudos: he did a great job convincing people to give him quite a few bucks.
> 
> Would a Tojiro DP be a smarter/cheaper choice? For sure, but it's not marketed In a way for regular users to know about it. Plus: most folks will want some "bling" when spending a little more on a knife, and the Tojiro sure as hell does not sparkle LOL.
> 
> ...



Agreed. I posted the original link, yet I would never buy one. At the same time, with Misen and this one, it shows that there seems to be demand for better knives at the a certain price point that more accessible for the masses. 

Would love to see s project like this too, will definitely pitch in.


----------



## AllanP (Jun 28, 2016)

I am actually curious about the quality of the knives once it goes into full production. The prototypes might be good considering how much attention each blade is given. But once it goes into manufacturing, how good can the quality control be.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Jun 28, 2016)

Has anyone thought about the fact about the only place you can go for this kind of contract cutlery manufacturing is main land China or maybe Taiwan (higher price)?


----------



## Dave Martell (Jun 28, 2016)

I'm bothered on several levels by this sort of thing when it comes up. It's not the Kickstarter aspect, or that someone is looking to make a product/business, or their success being seen - I'm fine with all that. 

The things that bug the living **** out of me...


1. The, "I was looking for a knife to suit my special requirements and couldn't find it so I designed a better knife that I'm now willing to share with you", story these guys all use. PLEASE!!

2. The hipster millennial metro-sexual aspect of the whole thing is just too much for this guy to handle. It's almost like these guys are all cookie cutter testicle-less robots or something - certainly nothing like (actually the complete opposite of) the average knife maker I've come to know over the years. 

3. The hip & trendy short art films. Disingenuous at best. 

4. Autocad - freaking AUTOCAD!?!?

5. And finally, the knives themselves.

The knives are nothing more than upscale Target Caphalon Furi brand type knives. They're all mostly Chinese made, nothing special or extraordinary about them. In fact I could find examples of better knives for the money in every case. 

So maybe the knives are OK for some people out there in know-nothing-about knives-land I've heard about, I get it, but when they're presented as something special then dammit - make them special! 


:my2cents:


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 28, 2016)

I guess at a 100+ bucks price point you could get it contract manufactured in much better places and still make a profit with economics of scale...


----------



## alterwisser (Jun 28, 2016)

I get all the arguments against these kind of campaigns, and I don't want to defend the guy, or any of the kickstarter guys ... but a couple of points

1) They don't have to make a better knife. They don't owe anyone anything

2) They are focusing on Marketing. We might hate that, but a lot of companies do that. Differentiating by product or quality or whatever other tangible aspect is harder and harder this days. If you want to reach a mass market, you better BS with the best of them

3) They don't want or need to convince us, the knife nerds.

4) If I would be looking at making a real living by starting a knife making business, I would take a similar approach. Yes, I would try to make a better product than they are, but first and foremost I would do massive amounts of research and figure out how I could target a mass produced knife to a large audience. And that would include a lot of Marketing/PR/Social etc. I mean, we all hate Chelsea Millers knives here, right? But she found her niche, she knows the audience she caters to and apparently is successful with that. I take my hats off to her. Nobody has to buy her knives, or any other knife for that matter.

I used to laugh about people telling me they have great knives, and then showing me their Henckels set from Macys. But you know, they also shake their heads when I tell them I just spent close to $800 on a custom knife. Live and let live. I try to educate them when they seek my advice, and more and more people do. I am happy to guide them as much as I can ...

And yes, I am serious. If anyone wants to discuss making a great product for the mass market, at a decent price ... I am happy to get together and discuss it. And I am sure some people would bash that product if it ever came to life ... and yes, I would absolutely want to have some kind of 2590 layers or other gimmick for that knife, just because you need something like that to market it to the masses IMHO.

End of rant. Don't hate me ... but if you do, let it be known that you're not the only ones today LOL


----------



## Dan P. (Jun 28, 2016)

Noodle Soup said:


> Has anyone thought about the fact about the only place you can go for this kind of contract cutlery manufacturing is main land China or maybe Taiwan (higher price)?



Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. 

One thing I didn't quite understand was the pie chart/"out of date business model" part. I presume that it is not terribly hard to have a factory make a knife to your design. You just have to give them enough money. I'm assuming you would pay wholesale prices, or, actually, somewhat more to have your own design realized, and then you sell it with your retail mark-up. So it seems like that whole part of the sales pitch is pure hot air. Right? Their retail price is just lower because they sell online.

Sorry, just picking at this because the kickstarter thing hadn't really occurred to me before, and while I believe I am a pretty good smith, I know for a fact that I'm a terrible businessman.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 28, 2016)

Ironically, I want a German Rock Chopper made out of something better than 1.4116. The lower HRC and high dps looks well suited to that use too.

I just have too much respect for the russian bulat makers, and for makers like Roselli that do similar steels, to want to support someone misusing that label.

What irks me about the popularity of VG10 in knives sold to cooking but not knife enthusiasts... while it's sturdy stuff, why the choice of one of the hardest to sharpen steels?


----------



## brainsausage (Jun 28, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Ironically, I want a German Rock Chopper made out of something better than 1.4116. The lower HRC and high dps looks well suited to that use too.
> 
> I just have too much respect for the russian bulat makers, and for makers like Roselli that do similar steels, to want to support someone misusing that label.
> 
> What irks me about the popularity of VG10 in knives sold to cooking but not knife enthusiasts... while it's sturdy stuff, why the choice of one of the hardest to sharpen steels?



I don't find it that bad to work with. Depends on the maker/stone set up IMO.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 28, 2016)

BTW, f...ing Gehring. In Germany. They make garden variety VG10 damascus knifes. State they make them in Germany. At a retail price that is competitive. Even did special editions for big german supermarkets at various times.


----------



## WildBoar (Jun 28, 2016)

Dave, what the heck is wrong with AutoCAD? I know I could produce a better/ more consistent blade outline/ cutting template in AutoCAD then I could with a pencil and paper. Heck, you could play around with profiles, grind patterns, etc. and look them over in 3D to see how ideas might pan out versus making maybe a couple dozen test grinds. Might enable you to narrow it down to a handful of profiles to try grinding, and reduce your overall product development time (and thus cut the costs).

'Course you could also go further and generate models that you can use for structural analysis, but that would get silly


----------



## Dave Martell (Jun 28, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> Dave, what the heck is wrong with AutoCAD? I know I could produce a better/ more consistent blade outline/ cutting template in AutoCAD then I could with a pencil and paper. Heck, you could play around with profiles, grind patterns, etc. and look them over in 3D to see how ideas might pan out versus making maybe a couple dozen test grinds. Might enable you to narrow it down to a handful of profiles to try grinding, and reduce your overall product development time (and thus cut the costs).
> 
> 'Course you could also go further and generate models that you can use for structural analysis, but that would get silly




I'm not a knife drawer, I'm a knife maker (not a money maker either). LOL 

Hey I appreciate Autocad for what it is and what it gets used for, no arguments from me on what it can do, I just cringe at the thought of sitting down with a computer to design a knife, that's just me.


----------



## malexthekid (Jun 28, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I guess style choices (Bolsters, Profiles) ... that's a Les Paul vs HSH Strat vs Tele discussion...
> 
> But isn't someone marketing a (probably alright) knife with terms that would suggest very exceptional material and quality (bulat), suggesting his VG10 dam is so much better than other VG10 dam, the actual snob respectively snob enabler?



As someone who is an enthusiast, i have no idea what bulat steel is. So i think there is no issue with confusion. Especially not when he clearly states the steel and bulat is only a product name and never referred to as the type of steel.

If you know what bulat steel is you should also know that this knife ain't it.


----------



## malexthekid (Jun 28, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> Dave, what the heck is wrong with AutoCAD? I know I could produce a better/ more consistent blade outline/ cutting template in AutoCAD then I could with a pencil and paper. Heck, you could play around with profiles, grind patterns, etc. and look them over in 3D to see how ideas might pan out versus making maybe a couple dozen test grinds. Might enable you to narrow it down to a handful of profiles to try grinding, and reduce your overall product development time (and thus cut the costs).
> 
> 'Course you could also go further and generate models that you can use for structural analysis, but that would get silly



You say silly. I say genius &#128512;.

Plus when mass produced some form of cad is necessary. Give it a couple of years and people will be 3D printing knives. Think of the fun/easy of refining geometry and profile with that.


----------



## malexthekid (Jun 28, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> I'm not a knife drawer, I'm a knife maker (not a money maker either). LOL
> 
> Hey I appreciate Autocad for what it is and what it gets used for, no arguments from me on what it can do, I just cringe at the thought of sitting down with a computer to design a knife, that's just me.



And that is why you are our man
Rather be at a grinder belting out one perfect knife then a computer designing one that can pump out 100 a day 

I have no issue with this knife etc. It is aimed at a target that isn't us. It will cut food perfectly well for lots or people. That's its purpose.


----------



## DanHumphrey (Jun 28, 2016)

Dan P. said:


> Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that.
> 
> One thing I didn't quite understand was the pie chart/"out of date business model" part. I presume that it is not terribly hard to have a factory make a knife to your design. You just have to give them enough money. I'm assuming you would pay wholesale prices, or, actually, somewhat more to have your own design realized, and then you sell it with your retail mark-up. So it seems like that whole part of the sales pitch is pure hot air. Right? Their retail price is just lower because they sell online.
> 
> Sorry, just picking at this because the kickstarter thing hadn't really occurred to me before, and while I believe I am a pretty good smith, I know for a fact that I'm a terrible businessman.



You wouldn't be getting to hand-make all the knives for the Kickstarter, though, you'd just be the guy requesting a basic knife from a Chinese factory and selling them to the masses. I don't think you'd have a whole lot of fun doing it.


----------



## oldcookie (Jun 28, 2016)

Lol, after Bulat, KS shows me this on the homepage...

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...fined-chef-knife-made-in-the?ref=home_popular


----------



## mise_en_place (Jun 28, 2016)

I don't think these guys selling the knives are terrible human beings, but I couldn't sit there and tell you as "a knife enthusiast" that this VG-10 Wusthof is the best thing ever that I pain-stakingly crafted. 

The video has a disingenuous feel that I dislike. Granted, if you don't know **** about knives, you might end up with the best knife you've ever used for $80 bucks.


----------



## jessf (Jun 29, 2016)

****** hipsters with the fake grass roots nonsense. It's "turf" roots is what it is. Why would anyone want a bolster like that? And, why would anyone that knows nothing about knives want a bolster like that? Why would you print in 3d if for no other reason than to appeal to the burgeoning 3d printer scene? 

Gawd, don't support these kinds of people.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Jun 29, 2016)

oldcookie said:


> Lol, after Bulat, KS shows me this on the homepage...
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/project...fined-chef-knife-made-in-the?ref=home_popular



Wow just reeks of marketing BS:


> After more than 30 prototypes since December 2015 we are now ready to go. A new high-quality standard for sharpness has been realized: In cooperation with US based research and development institute we created the first chef knife that uses ULTRA NANO ZIRCONIA particles. The KYTCHO POWER BLADE is ULTRA SHARP has a HIGH DENSITY and stays sharp FOREVER.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Jun 29, 2016)

The second they say 'stays sharp for ever" I write them off as con men and liars. Either that or they don't know anything about knives.


----------



## Matus (Jun 29, 2016)

oldcookie said:


> Lol, after Bulat, KS shows me this on the homepage...
> 
> https://www.kickstarter.com/project...fined-chef-knife-made-in-the?ref=home_popular



Well, that looks at least material-wise like a considerable improvement to ceramic knives. Design does not call my nae, but they do seem to have managed to improve the impact toughness a lot ...


----------



## rj_1 (Jun 29, 2016)

Count me amongst those that doesn't understand the outrage here. Not that I'm interested in buying one. It's for a totally different market. Plus, it's not like they're forcing any one here to buy one. Let the market decide. If it's a worthwhile knife for it's target market, it'll do well. If not, it'll die out. Done.

Also, I've seen a couple mentions of "hipsters". You guys realize that _WE'RE_ the hipsters of the kitchen knife world, right?

-RJ


----------



## rick alen (Jun 29, 2016)

The Misen boys are now selling "futures" on their passitby knife online. They still hadn't delivered a single unit.


Rick


----------



## oldcookie (Jun 29, 2016)

Matus said:


> Well, that looks at least material-wise like a considerable improvement to ceramic knives. Design does not call my nae, but they do seem to have managed to improve the impact toughness a lot ...



And they address the Made in China concern that some people have.  Made in the USA. 

When they started cutting a can, reminded me of ginsu infomercials...


----------



## Dave Martell (Jun 29, 2016)

rj_1 said:


> Also, I've seen a couple mentions of "hipsters". You guys realize that _WE'RE_ the hipsters of the kitchen knife world, right?




You do have a point there...LOL


----------



## Dave Martell (Jun 29, 2016)

rick alen said:


> The Misen boys are now selling "futures" on their passitby knife online. They still hadn't delivered a single unit.
> 
> 
> Rick




I noticed that they switched their online updates to "For Backers Only" status, meaning you have to log in to see what they're up to. 

What's the deal with the "futures"?


Oh wait, we can view comments.....and they're not good... :scared4:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/misenkitchen/misen-cook-sharp/comments


----------



## alterwisser (Jun 29, 2016)

Thank you! Couldn't agree more ... why do we always get so upset about any knife initiatives targeting mass markets? I think we should tolerate that, just as much as we expect others to tolerate our willingness to spend thousands of dollars on knives. 

I feel the same way when I see some posts about Chelsea Miller knives, or some of the negativity Joel from Cut Brooklyn is getting. They all found their target audiences, and they do a good job at Marketing. I applaud any makers who's creating a kickass product ... but I also applaud any maker who figured out his target audience and is doing a great job at marketing his or her stuff to the right people. Both are skills. 

I think Will said it in a post in this thread, that he knows he's not a good businessman. Well, he's a fantastic knifemaker ... and others might be mediocre knifemakers, but fantastic businessmen. And then there's Kramer LOL

Live and let live ... just my opinion. 

PS: I have a long beard, I wear skinny jeans, I think plaid shirts are still cool and I buy bicycle hats for my son ... am I a hipster? Or am I missing the fixie bike?



rj_1 said:


> Count me amongst those that doesn't understand the outrage here. Not that I'm interested in buying one. It's for a totally different market. Plus, it's not like they're forcing any one here to buy one. Let the market decide. If it's a worthwhile knife for it's target market, it'll do well. If not, it'll die out. Done.
> 
> Also, I've seen a couple mentions of "hipsters". You guys realize that _WE'RE_ the hipsters of the kitchen knife world, right?
> 
> -RJ


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 29, 2016)

The flak is about their marketing, and their "we're too special for all segments of the retail system" attitude.

A VG10 Hoff will certainly have part of its target market here too. So would a ceramic Reito-Kiri if it existed 

But then: If they had that good a ceramic formula, they could make far more by marketing it to vendors already experienced in making upmarket ceramic knives - rather unlikely that in that market segment longevity would be seen as cannibalizing the market - it's the lack of it that is I think, the perception that the current upmarket ones have the same problems the inexpensive ones have.


----------



## rick alen (Jun 29, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> I noticed that they switched their online updates to "For Backers Only" status, meaning you have to log in to see what they're up to.
> 
> What's the deal with the "futures"?
> 
> ...




Ahahaha, By "futures" I was simply inferring a risky investment.


----------



## DanHumphrey (Jun 29, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> I feel the same way when I see some posts about Chelsea Miller knives, or some of the negativity Joel from Cut Brooklyn is getting. They all found their target audiences, and they do a good job at Marketing. I applaud any makers who's creating a kickass product ... but I also applaud any maker who figured out his target audience and is doing a great job at marketing his or her stuff to the right people. Both are skills.



Given that Bloodroot is respected around here, why don't people like Chelsea Miller? From a glance at her site, it seems like a similar concept, and the prices aren't much higher than Bloodroot either.

Now, I don't think I'd really like the profiles much, but at least it's not Yet Another VG-10.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jun 29, 2016)

rick alen said:


> Ahahaha, By "futures" I was simply inferring a risky investment.




Got it!


----------



## alterwisser (Jun 29, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> Given that Bloodroot is respected around here, why don't people like Chelsea Miller? From a glance at her site, it seems like a similar concept, and the prices aren't much higher than Bloodroot either.
> 
> Now, I don't think I'd really like the profiles much, but at least it's not Yet Another VG-10.



I think the whole rasp file think is putting people off.

I love the Bloodroot guys, awesome to deal with in every aspect and while I've never used one, I love the looks of (most of) their knives, and the whole recycling idea.

Chelsea is a great person, no matter what you might think of her knives, loved talking to her.


----------



## S-Line (Jun 30, 2016)

Not sure if you guys seen this video yet. But watch the video in the link. For fast forward to 16:35 for serious epicness. Pretty hilarious.

http://gizmodo.com/this-beautiful-chefs-knife-is-beautifully-cheap-1782830997


----------



## gic (Jun 30, 2016)

A german profile knife requires a tough steel, no? VG10 unless heat treated by experts is not a tough steel, no? Ergo, this knife is the bastard child of a shun and a wusthof and I expect it to be chippy and problematic!


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 30, 2016)

I might not have experienced enough VG10 then, the one or two I have around in VG steels (10 and 2, various off brand, no shun) are so tough that you can't even get the bloody burr off without ives (abrasives, expl*sives, corrosives, expletives... but some ives are needed!)... and <59HRC at 17dps isn't exactly a fragile edge, no? PS, 17dps makes it seem that Gl... was in for the threesome.

Chipping? Self-renewing serrations.


----------



## Matus (Jun 30, 2016)

gic said:


> A german profile knife requires a tough steel, no? VG10 unless heat treated by experts is not a tough steel, no?



No, not really. The profile and the grind of a knife are not directly coupled.


----------



## malexthekid (Jun 30, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I might not have experienced enough VG10 then, the one or two I have around in VG steels (10 and 2, various off brand, no shun) are so tough that you can't even get the bloody burr off without ives (abrasives, expl*sives, corrosives, expletives... but some ives are needed!)... and <59HRC at 17dps isn't exactly a fragile edge, no? PS, 17dps makes it seem that Gl... was in for the threesome.
> 
> Chipping? Self-renewing serrations.



I have a shiki in vg-10 that is easy as to sharpen.


----------



## Dan P. (Jun 30, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Chipping? Self-renewing serrations.



This is my mother's philosophy. I gave her a knife in blue 2 some years ago. You can now saw branches with it!


----------



## Dave Martell (Jun 30, 2016)

S-Line said:


> Not sure if you guys seen this video yet. But watch the video in the link. For fast forward to 16:35 for serious epicness. Pretty hilarious.
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/this-beautiful-chefs-knife-is-beautifully-cheap-1782830997





Holy crap - I'm *SOLD*! :rofl2:


BTW, doesn't that Adam guy from Gizmodo look exactly like the guy from Bulat? _Reference_: Metro-sexual testicle-less robot (I mentioned before).


----------



## Dave Martell (Jun 30, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I might not have experienced enough VG10 then, the one or two I have around in VG steels (10 and 2, various off brand, no shun) are so tough that you can't even get the bloody burr off without ives (abrasives, expl*sives, corrosives, expletives... but some ives are needed!)... and <59HRC at 17dps isn't exactly a fragile edge, no? PS, 17dps makes it seem that Gl... was in for the threesome.
> 
> Chipping? Self-renewing serrations.




There is for sure a difference in VG10 knives with regards to how burr formation and removal goes. For instance, sharpen a Hattori FH (solid) side by side with a Hattori HD (clad), they're quite different and yet from the same company.

VG10 is a Japanese steel that was propriety and only sold to be used in Japan until recent years. As noted already, even the Japanese with experience, get different results from this steel so I wonder how a Chinese company (with maybe little to no experience) will do with heat treating it? Just something to think about...


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 30, 2016)

BTW, why does no maker actually do hardness testing and binning of their output? Would give them three or four catalog items from one production line.


----------



## oldcookie (Jun 30, 2016)

Dan P. said:


> Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that.
> 
> One thing I didn't quite understand was the pie chart/"out of date business model" part. I presume that it is not terribly hard to have a factory make a knife to your design. You just have to give them enough money. I'm assuming you would pay wholesale prices, or, actually, somewhat more to have your own design realized, and then you sell it with your retail mark-up. So it seems like that whole part of the sales pitch is pure hot air. Right? Their retail price is just lower because they sell online.
> 
> Sorry, just picking at this because the kickstarter thing hadn't really occurred to me before, and while I believe I am a pretty good smith, I know for a fact that I'm a terrible businessman.



By doing a Kickstarter campaign before actually manufacturing or even contracting a manufacturer, the most capital intensive(hence risky) part of the business is removed. So as long as they are successful in attracting enough pre-purchase, it essentially removes most of business risk for them, so they can offer the product at a lower price. They are effectively presenting the part about customer sharing the risks as a feature, i.e. more marketing speak.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jun 30, 2016)

[FONT=&amp]*$305,587*
pledged of $25,000 goal
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]*13*
days to go

[/FONT]


----------



## Dan P. (Jun 30, 2016)

oldcookie said:


> By doing a Kickstarter campaign before actually manufacturing or even contracting a manufacturer, the most capital intensive(hence risky) part of the business is removed. So as long as they are successful in attracting enough pre-purchase, it essentially removes most of business risk for them, so they can offer the product at a lower price. They are effectively presenting the part about customer sharing the risks as a feature, i.e. more marketing speak.



I understand what is going on. It was just my oblique English way of saying that I found their spiel on "ancient sales margins, bla-bli-bla" pricing rather inscrutable. I.e. Here's a... perhaps better than ordinary knife, offered at, more-or-less, the price that you'd expect. Underwhelming perhaps. Or maybe not, as I said before, they must be doing something right, they've attracted 300,000+!


----------



## Noodle Soup (Jun 30, 2016)

I'm with you Dan. The price doesn't seem that remarkable for a Chinese made knife. Even a little high maybe. The Chinese always tend to amaze me on how low they can turn out fairly adequate product. You show up cash in hand and tell them how many. A few months later you have knives. Practically all the big cutlery companies are doing that for at least part of their lines these days.


----------



## nacayoda (Jul 1, 2016)

Hey folks,

I've read through your "Bulat on KickStarter" thread after reading a Gizmodo feature article today and being pretty enticed by the knife on offer. My knife experience is limited to buying a discounted 
Zwilling block set for my sister for her engagement. At home I've inherited my wife's kitchen block set which I'm sure is a sub $100 group.

When I saw that layered, folded finish on the KickStarter "Bulet" I was instantly interested. "$800 performance for $100" was also a wee bit influencing.

Anyway, I thought I'd do some research before blindly committing to a "too good to be true" situation. Hence my arrival here. 
Sounds like it really is too good to be true.


We take care of the meagre knives we have at home fairly well. They are diswashered (all metal handles), but this can change to protect a good investment. I use a honing steel to keep them in okay sharpness. We prepare food on wooden boards. I guess we qualify as low maintenance, low sharpening skill, knife owners. We dream of having a better knife. At least one. And the size/shape of the "Bulet" is the same as the one in our block we use most.

So... if not a Bulet (high on promises, low on price and maintenance), then what would you recommend?

Thanks in advance for your help. And also for contributing to such a helpful forum!

Cheers,
nacayoda (Australia)


----------



## Matus (Jul 1, 2016)

Welcome nacayoda! You are a rare occurence of a (knife-wise) normal person on this forum  

We here tend to look down on the 'western' type of knives that tend to be in general thick and with relatively low harndness (HRC 55 - 57 or so). The main difference to Japanese knives is that these are considerably thinner, made from high carbon (staining or stainless) steels and hardened to HRC 60+. This means that one one side these knives can (and will) cut much better, but need to be used with care (thin and hard edge is easier to damage) than the 'more forgiving' western style knives (Wusthof is a good example here). Also when it comes to sharpening there are differences. A wusthoff can be kept in shape with a sharpening rod or some kind of pull-through sharpener, but a high quality Japanese knife is best sharpened with water stones what requires the stones and skill.

The Bulat knife is a bit confusing knife - on one hand it is made from VG-10 steel which while not favorite around here (not even among stainless steels as it seems harder to de-burr than otgher steels) can perform well and can be hardened to HRC 60+, but on the other the knife is given a relatvely soft edge. It may well work as a result and the price may be OK, but hype around it is just not justified. At the same time it may actuall y work well for someone who wants to 'step up' from the soft German/Western knives. If you have browsed this thread you have pretty much got the critique (about the knife and maker).

If you are interested in a good quality knives that would offer you better performance than what you have today something like Tojiro DP (also VG-10 steel, but it has really good heat treat ) or Suisin INOX may be a good alternative.


----------



## SousVideLoca (Jul 1, 2016)

Hey nacayoda!

We get this question a _ton_, and have prepared a little form to help better understand your specific interests and needs.



> LOCATION
> What country are you in?
> 
> 
> ...



When you have the time, give what information you can and we'll help you find the perfect knife for your budget. Western or Japanese or those funky places in between, there are scores of options out there, and I can assure you--without even the slightest bit of doubt--that we can beat the Bulat. When someone tells you that a piece of barely-hardened VG-10 can perform like an $800 knife, they've either never actually handled an $800 knife or are outright lying to you. In either case, they aren't the people you want to buy from.


----------



## DanHumphrey (Jul 1, 2016)

If your budget can sneak up more towards $150 there's a whole world of much better knives than the Bulat available..


----------



## gic (Jul 1, 2016)

And there is the widely available Tojiro DP which is made out of VG10 and I betcha is going to be a better knife than the Bulat for a lot less money (doesn't hav ethe damascus though)...


----------



## Timthebeaver (Jul 1, 2016)

Bindun. 

Decent cheap VG10 knife = Zhen. Also have a line in faux-damascus with fancy handle.


----------



## Sharpchef (Jul 1, 2016)

In german discount markets they sell bad groundet VG10 Damscus covered Santokus for under 30. After a few tests they can at least hold the edge like Shuns.......

This is a very strange Kickstarter offer!

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Jul 1, 2016)

And none of them ever point out the Damascus outer layers add zero to the performance of the knife. Totally a cosmetic feature.


----------



## Obsidiank (Jul 1, 2016)

It's interesting that there exists so many subcultures on subjects that the general public don't know exists. I've known about Japanese knives since college but my knowledge was halted at the shun/global sur la table level. Then, boom a whole new world opens up. Welcome to the forum and I hope you don't get too sucked into the rabbit hole.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 1, 2016)

Basically, I have to admit I find the ongoing damascus marketing clever ... the better performance being due to the layered steel is not even a lie, just that another layered steel mechanism (awase in various forms) is mostly responsible for the performance, not the damascus jigane - which might have some trivial(!!!) influence too. Kind of like what a different kind of gravel or sand used in the substructure might change in properties of a tarmacadam road - small influence probably as long as the basics are there, and the influence might be for better or worse!

JCK house brands in the US, Eden in Europe... there seems to be a few reputable but somewhat localized brands for VG10 damascus everywhere, there has got to be one for australia 

BTW, for new readers, "bulat" is a form of "actual" damascus (a kind of crucible steel, closer if i remember correctly to a material like historic Wootz or Roselli's UHC steel, not the pattern welded type typical on culinary knives), and rather exotic especially on kitchen knives. This is not what is used in that kickstarter.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Jul 1, 2016)

I assume Kramer and some of the other ABS types hand forge solid welded pattern Damascus kitchen blades but I don't know of a single commercial culinary blade made that way.


----------



## rick alen (Jul 1, 2016)

Noodle Soup said:


> I assume Kramer and some of the other ABS types hand forge solid welded pattern Damascus kitchen blades but I don't know of a single commercial culinary blade made that way.




The Shun Dual Core is actually a coreless, or what you call "solid," Damascus. But like all Shuns it's nothing special and no bargain.


----------



## oldcookie (Jul 1, 2016)

S-Line said:


> Not sure if you guys seen this video yet. But watch the video in the link. For fast forward to 16:35 for serious epicness. Pretty hilarious.
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/this-beautiful-chefs-knife-is-beautifully-cheap-1782830997



Holy crap! Great material for the YouTube knucklehead thread


----------



## gic (Jul 1, 2016)

Actually I did a passaround of the Shun dual core and the consensus was that it was a darn good knife, if too small at 210 and unless on sale a wee bit overprice 

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...otential-pass-around-Shun-dual-core-kiritsuke


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 1, 2016)

Aware of the solid welded/forged damascus blades (different from crucible steel again!), seems to be more of a thing with German (couple of makers using Markus Balbach's steel for example) than traditional Japanese knife makers though.


----------



## rick alen (Jul 1, 2016)

gic said:


> Actually I did a passaround of the Shun dual core and the consensus was that it was a darn good knife, if too small at 210 and unless on sale a wee bit overprice
> 
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...otential-pass-around-Shun-dual-core-kiritsuke




From what I read consensus implied it was only good for a Shun. Typical too thick behind the edge clunky grind, but apparently the steel did perform better than their regular VG-10 line.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jul 1, 2016)

[FONT=&amp]*$349,621*
pledged of $25,000 goal
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]*12*
days to go

[/FONT]


----------



## Krassi (Jul 1, 2016)

Holy ...

you all have to read Amy'Gs" post!!!
It drove tears into my eyes because of all the laughing ))

best regards


----------



## daveb (Jul 1, 2016)

Linkee?


----------



## nacayoda (Jul 1, 2016)

SousVideLoca said:


> Hey nacayoda!
> 
> We get this question a _ton_, and have prepared a little form to help better understand your specific interests and needs.
> 
> When you have the time, give what information you can and we'll help you find the perfect knife for your budget. Western or Japanese or those funky places in between, there are scores of options out there, and I can assure you--without even the slightest bit of doubt--that we can beat the Bulat. When someone tells you that a piece of barely-hardened VG-10 can perform like an $800 knife, they've either never actually handled an $800 knife or are outright lying to you. In either case, they aren't the people you want to buy from.



Thanks to everyone for the replies and the ongoing discussions. I'm learning a lot (though it seems like the very tip of an iceberg of knowedge!)

I started a thread here answering the questionnaire. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...n-Kickstarter-quot-please?p=425218#post425218

Cheers,
ny


----------



## chiffonodd (Jul 2, 2016)

"You arrive home with fresh ingredients, eager to prepare a great meal. You lay everything out on the counter and reach for a knife - your favorite knife. *The one thats dirty, but you stop to clean it anyway. *The knife that makes you a more confident and creative cook. The right knife."

:dazed:


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jul 2, 2016)

chiffonodd said:


> "You arrive home with fresh ingredients, eager to prepare a great meal. You lay everything out on the counter and reach for a knife - your favorite knife. *The one thats dirty, but you stop to clean it anyway. *The knife that makes you a more confident and creative cook. The right knife."
> 
> :dazed:



:wow:

There's really people out there who love their favourite knives *that* much?


----------



## Dave Martell (Jul 2, 2016)

[FONT=&amp]*$361,153*
pledged of $25,000 goal
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]*11*
days to go

[/FONT]


----------



## antonio_luiz (Jul 3, 2016)

Not all kickstarter projects are worth supporting. Just saying............


----------



## Matus (Jul 3, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> [FONT=&]*$361,153*
> pledged of $25,000 goal
> [/FONT]
> [FONT=&]*11*
> ...



Dave, checking that too often may give you nightmares


----------



## Dave Martell (Jul 3, 2016)

:shocked3:


[FONT=&amp]*$379,328*
pledged of $25,000 goal
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]*10*
days to go

[/FONT]


----------



## jessf (Jul 3, 2016)

My general disdain for turf roots narratives aside, if it gets more people interested in better knives then I can only see this adding to the kitchen knife community. Just watch, a few months after its releases you'll have a surge of new members joining with question on how to sharpen their new poolat. Then you show them a whole new world they didn't know existed.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jul 3, 2016)

jessf said:


> My general disdain for turf roots narratives aside, if it gets more people interested in better knives then I can only see this adding to the kitchen knife community. Just watch, a few months after its releases you'll have a surge of new members joining with question on how to sharpen their new poolat. Then you show them a whole new world they didn't know existed.




I like this.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Jul 3, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> [FONT=&amp]*$361,153*
> pledged of $25,000 goal
> [/FONT]
> [FONT=&amp]*11*
> ...





Dave Martell said:


> :shocked3:
> 
> 
> [FONT=&amp]*$379,328*
> ...



It's surprising they raised $18k in 18 hours


----------



## Matus (Jul 4, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> :shocked3:



I told you so


----------



## chiffonodd (Jul 4, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> :shocked3:
> 
> 
> [FONT=&]*$379,328*
> ...



Excuse my ignorance but what do people get for investing (pledging?) in this whole thing? Can't imagine it's equity in the company as I thought sale of shares was highly regulated. Do they get a knife or something?? Or is this just out of the goodness of their own hearts, and somehow they can raise almost $380,000 from people just chipping in??


----------



## daveb (Jul 4, 2016)

Usually they are provided a product, in this case a knife. If product comes to fruition.

Kickstarter worked out well for me on Anova V2. Would not touch this one.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jul 10, 2016)

[FONT=&amp]*$530,745*
pledged of $25,000 goal
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]*3*
days to go

[/FONT]


----------



## jessf (Jul 10, 2016)

So, who's going to buy one and do a KNF review?


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Jul 10, 2016)

Let's chip in and do a passaround.

I think PT went in on the misen (?), but it's been months since I've read that so could be wrong :dontknow:


----------



## rick alen (Jul 11, 2016)

Why don't you just wait and see if they ever actually ship one. Last look the Misen boys hadn't yet shipped after just about a year and weren't answering emails.


----------



## Dave Martell (Jul 22, 2016)

*July 14, 2016*


[FONT=&amp]Successfully raised [/FONT]*$707,001*[FONT=&amp] with 5,131 backers[/FONT][FONT=&amp]w


[/FONT]&#8203; :dontknow:[FONT=&amp]ith 5,131 backers[/FONT]


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Jul 22, 2016)

This is one of those time when you just can't help but saying really slowly. 

OH


MY


GOD


----------



## AllanP (Jul 22, 2016)

Now to see if they can actually make 5000 knives, or go back on their words like Misen


----------



## Matus (Jul 22, 2016)

As high as that number is - I do not see why they should not manage to make those knives.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jul 22, 2016)

Matus said:


> As high as that number is - I do not see why they should not manage to make those knives.



A lot of Kickstarters fail to deliver because the guys behind them often have very little project management experience and the project can end up being very large. There's a lot that can go wrong when you have an inexperienced team trying to deliver on thousands of items which have to be specially commissioned from manufacturers. 

Most successful businesses either take on significant investment (and then burn through millions) or start small and grow organically, placing small tentative test orders in the beginning and gradually expanding as the business grows and trust is built with manufacturers and other service providers. A crowdfunded project will usually have impossibly tight deadlines (based on inexperience of what's involved) and the big pot of money reduces the feelings of trepidation when committing large sums. It's also usually the case that there isn't the possibility of external investment (as nobody would invest when the funds are required to fill existing orders rather than grow the business).

Also with low margins it means that while $710k is a lot of money, they maybe only have $70k gross profit from which they need to cover tooling, process development, QC failures, staff wages, expenses, admin, etc. They would need to keep these possibly unforeseen costs below $70k to make any profit, but if they go over $70k they would be cutting into the funds which needed to be set aside for materials and production costs.

I obviously don't know know what their actual margin is, but the usual problem is that gross profit is assumed to be net profit and they also don't allow for a contingency. When people are inexperienced they often want to be as generous as possible and end up setting themselves up for failure with too low margins. I'm not saying that's what is happening here, but the skills needed to market a project are very different to the skills needed to bring the project to completion and with low margins you need a very tight team if you're going to deliver.


----------



## Matus (Jul 22, 2016)

Point taken, those are all good arguments.


----------



## gic (Jul 23, 2016)

I'm not sure their gross margins are as low as you might think. I wouldn't be surprised if they are getting the knife made for $30 or so. Zhen a well respected taiwanese company is selling a san mai 8" VG10 knife almost certainly made in china for <$70 retail, using a pretty standard 100% markup that gives $35 unit cost and AUS 8 is cheaper than a san mai VG 10 I bet.

But yea, running a company is non trivial and most people are too quick to assume it is a piece of cake.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jul 23, 2016)

gic said:


> I'm not sure their gross margins are as low as you might think. I wouldn't be surprised if they are getting the knife made for $30 or so. Zhen a well respected taiwanese company is selling a san mai 8" VG10 knife almost certainly made in china for <$70 retail, using a pretty standard 100% markup that gives $35 unit cost and AUS 8 is cheaper than a san mai VG 10 I bet.
> 
> But yea, running a company is non trivial and most people are too quick to assume it is a piece of cake.



I agree, the mark-up of most products is immense, but in many cases it needs to be in order to cover all costs/ expenses and still turn a profit.

I chose 10% arbitrarily to illustrate the point, but the fact remains that they often don't plan for enough. It also makes it very difficult to transition to a sustainable business if they have to implement significant price hikes out of the gate.

Remember too that Kickstarter take around 10%, there's transaction processing fees and the PR company they used would probably be owed 10%.

So even with a 35% gross margin (70% mark-up), there would only be a 10% planned net.


----------



## rick alen (Jul 23, 2016)

The was an apparently very China-knowledgeable guy showed up for the Misen post, too bad he was shown the door for soliciting a little info as his further input would have been interesting. He felt the Misen could have been had from China for, if I correctly recall, $10-15 depending on the quantity (guessing the lower end considering the $1M+ the Misen boys generated.) Given that I'd say the Bulats are looking at $25/unit tops, $40 delivered to the customer.

They have no overhead, no advertising expenses, they don't require any personnel here other than themselves. It's a one-shot deal as they will never be able to compete out in the real world with the big dogs.

I believe this is what our China-savvy guy had intimated and was interested in himself, a one-shot deal.

Ahahahaha, it just now occurs to me he may even be behind the Bulat! Ahahahaha!


----------



## nacayoda (Feb 19, 2017)

So, did anyone order one? Are they shipping? (It seems they are close https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/840887253/bulat-your-go-to-kitchen-knife/updates)
I'm still holding off on my purchase of a Tojiro Gyuto 210mm.
But why? Well, I sharpened our current knives after getting a tip on the Ikea sharpener. It works brilliantly... and my wife cut herself badly the very next time she used them. No new knives for me then, yet.


----------



## rick alen (Feb 20, 2017)

It will likely be junk like the Misen, their claimed 58rc turning out to be 51-55. Just get the Tojiro, and learn how to sharpen on waterstones, rather than the crap pullthru.


----------



## Krassi (Feb 20, 2017)

Really anyone who says a knife will stay sharp forever is a master of "alternative facts", Get a real knife and learn how to sharpen!
I would also thing that stuff is made in china with a fancy hipster approved commercial spot. Also the main problem it looks like cheap crap.. german grocery vg10 20 Buck knifes look better.. well actually they look the same.. strange


----------



## cutler81 (Jan 18, 2018)

ynot1985 said:


> Rockwell of 57-59...hmmm



Ha ha, that is exactly what I thought! 
HRC 65 or more would be something worth my money


----------

