# Do I need another stone?



## sherrib (Jan 19, 2015)

Hi All,

For sharpening, I own a double sided 1k/6k stone, a stone flattener and a leather strop coated with green honing compound (chrome oxide.) I'm guilty. Sometimes I let my knives get a little too dull before taking them to the stones. Also, I recently purchased a Kramer Zwilling carbon steel gyuto. I bought it because I am aware that this line is being phased out and I managed to get a very nice discount since I took the stores' demo knife. The gyuto had a couple of minor chips and was dull. I brought it home and sharpened it - it took me about 20 minutes to get a burr going. When all was said and done, I managed to get it very sharp (push cutting paper towel sharp - the entire process took less than an hour altogether.) Before this knife, my daily use knives were a Victorinox Forschner, a couple of classic Wusthofs and a CCK cleaver. 

Would you recommend I buy a coarser stone? Not sure if I'm correct, but if I had a 500 grit stone, would it make sharpening a dull knife go faster? I was very very happy with the results I got from sharpening the Kramer, but if I could get the same results but just faster, that would be even better. I wasn't looking to reprofile or change bevels or anything like that, I was just looking to make the process go faster. Not sure if a coarser stone would achieve that or if I'm better off continuing to use the 1k (less chance of accidentally ruining an edge.) 

Sherri


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## CoqaVin (Jan 19, 2015)

If you are just a beginner and the setup is working for you why change it up? maybe wait a little longer and get yourself a coarser stone, but they are used to set bevels, thin, and re profile generally, and since they are so aggressive and you are a beginner and don't want to accidentally ruin the edge I would stay with the 1k, just my opinion others may differ


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## Mangelwurzel (Jan 19, 2015)

20 minutes to raise a burr? And on carbon steel?? That sounds like an awful long time to me. Are you sure you were hitting the edge the whole time? The magic marker trick will help with this. 

I say stick with your existing set up and focus on technique before getting a coarse stone.


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## CoqaVin (Jan 19, 2015)

exactly PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT with anything really


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## mkriggen (Jan 19, 2015)

I've found that I ALWAYS need another stone:devilburn:

Be well,
Mikey


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## Matus (Jan 19, 2015)

With a really dull or chipped knife it makes no sense to waste time with 1k stone. Boston 500, Gesshin 400, JNS 300 - depending on your budget and location. I have not used the first one, but it gets good feedback.

In my experience - it is more than enough to start sharpening with 1k stone (I use Gesshin 2k) IF the blade is being sharpened regularly and does not need any repairs (chips, broken tip). With my Gesshin stone I do not need more than a minute or 2 to raise burr on each side of a 240 carbon gyuto. 

When I started I also only had a 1lk/6k combination stone (Cerax) and tried to thin a 140mm blade on it - to was going nowhere and I dished the 1k side heavily. Later I have thinned and adjusted the same blade on Gesshin 400 (and also JNS 300) stone - it was worlds of difference in efficiency.


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## sherrib (Jan 19, 2015)

mkriggen said:


> I've found that I ALWAYS need another stone:devilburn:
> 
> Be well,
> Mikey



That goes without saying. New stone. New knife. Another new knife....


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## sherrib (Jan 19, 2015)

CoqaVin said:


> If you are just a beginner and the setup is working for you why change it up? maybe wait a little longer and get yourself a coarser stone, but they are used to set bevels, thin, and re profile generally, and since they are so aggressive and you are a beginner and don't want to accidentally ruin the edge I would stay with the 1k, just my opinion others may differ



This is exactly it. I can get a knife to push cutting paper towel, but am still lacking confidence. I'm scared of ruining an edge. I think I have to go the same route as I've been going. To practice on the Forschner. Maybe get that one nice and dull and practice on a coarse stone with it until my confidence increases.


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## sherrib (Jan 19, 2015)

Mangelwurzel said:


> 20 minutes to raise a burr? And on carbon steel?? That sounds like an awful long time to me. Are you sure you were hitting the edge the whole time? The magic marker trick will help with this.
> 
> I say stick with your existing set up and focus on technique before getting a coarse stone.



I was hitting the edge the whole time. It was a demo knife being banged around in a store (stored without a knife guard). There were scratches, patina, a tiny bit of rusting and some chips. I got a nice discount. The manager tried and tried to get me NOT to buy it (he kept saying "you don't want that knife" and suggested I order a new one online. He offered to take it to the back to sharpen it for me - I didn't ask but assumed he was going to use one of those handheld pull-through devices. Nooooo thank you, I was not interested in him taking away all the fun for me with one of those things.)


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## sherrib (Jan 19, 2015)

Matus said:


> With a really dull or chipped knife it makes no sense to waste time with 1k stone. Boston 500, Gesshin 400, JNS 300 - depending on your budget and location. I have not used the first one, but it gets good feedback.
> 
> In my experience - it is more than enough to start sharpening with 1k stone (I use Gesshin 2k) IF the blade is being sharpened regularly and does not need any repairs (chips, broken tip). With my Gesshin stone I do not need more than a minute or 2 to raise burr on each side of a 240 carbon gyuto.
> 
> When I started I also only had a 1lk/6k combination stone (Cerax) and tried to thin a 140mm blade on it - to was going nowhere and I dished the 1k side heavily. Later I have thinned and adjusted the same blade on Gesshin 400 (and also JNS 300) stone - it was worlds of difference in efficiency.



Thank you Matus, this is making a lot of sense. And I'm realizing that I will need to practice using a coarse stone with a practice knife until I get a hang of it.


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## TheDispossessed (Jan 19, 2015)

i've said it here a few times, 
worked w a kid who only ever used a kitayama, and a 6k arashiyama occasionally on the daily, and his edge was impeccable,
but i own a gesshin 400 and it has seen a tremendous amount of use and wouldn't go without, i've even had times where i needed to put my knife on the 150x diamond plate for a few minutes.
to each their own but if you frequently chip your knives or need to reset bevels you need a low grit stone.
when cutting a whole new bevel, fewer passes = more consistency = better bevel = better performance = less wear on your nice stones.


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## Mrmnms (Jan 19, 2015)

I have a 500 Beston you can try for a bit. Pretty decent soaker stone.


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## sherrib (Jan 19, 2015)

Mrmnms said:


> I have a 500 Beston you can try for a bit. Pretty decent soaker stone.



Thank you so much Mrmnms, I think it's time for me to finally get a coarser stone. Now to figure out the grit...


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## sherrib (Jan 19, 2015)

TheDispossessed said:


> ...to each their own but if you frequently chip your knives or need to reset bevels you need a low grit stone.
> when cutting a whole new bevel, fewer passes = more consistency = better bevel = better performance = less wear on your nice stones.



Good enough reasons for me!


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## Geo87 (Jan 19, 2015)

I couldn't live without a coarse stone  But if you care about extending the usable life of your knives try to use them only when necessary.... They eat metal FAST! 
When setting bevels as soon as you get a consistent burr on each side stop immediately and move on.


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## CoqaVin (Jan 19, 2015)

im about to spark another debate, what is the best coarse stone "FOR YOU"


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## JDA_NC (Jan 19, 2015)

CoqaVin said:


> im about to spark another debate, what is the best coarse stone "FOR YOU"



If you're in America, for me, it's a Gesshin 400. Without question.

It cuts stupid quick and has great feedback. 

Does it dish fairly quickly? Yes. But it also cuts just as quickly. It's the fastest cutting coarse grit stone I own.

If you're looking to do serious thinning/metal removal of your knives, it's probably best to look at other, lower grit options.

But for resetting bevels and minor thinning, a Gesshin 400.

I also own a JNS 300 & Chosera 400. Both good stones in their own rights. If I had to pick only one to buy again - it'd be a Gesshin 400.


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## Sabaki (Jan 20, 2015)

Of course you need a coarser stone  maintaining the bevel goes so much faster with the right stone:doublethumbsup:

I mostly use Naniwa pro 400 with good result


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## Matus (Jan 20, 2015)

Pretty much all coarse stones with decent cutting speed are going to dish faster than medium grit stones. I have experience with Gesshin 400 and JNS 300. Both are excellent and fast, none of them gets clogged with any sort of steel. JNS seems to dish slower, but it will take more extensive use to confirm that. My Gesshin 400 lost about 1/3 of its thickness over past 18 months. I will soon glue it to a 10mm thick PVC board. I expect it to last another 2 years when working on my own knives - it may be less, but that depends on how many dull knives of my relatives and friends will I sharpen in the future 

On the dishing & flattening - as mentioned - the stone will dish and it will need flattening. However I have recently spent more time with one knife on that stone and when I was working closer to the tip of the knife I tried to use the corners of the stone and actually managed to avoid that bowl-like dishing nearly completely.


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## CoqaVin (Jan 20, 2015)

I heard through the grapevine that the Suehiro Cerax 320 is one of the best coarse stones


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## Jpox (Jan 21, 2015)

My vote would be for the king deluxe 300. Has the same sandy/gritty feel as the beston 500 but works without dishing. I have the shapton pro 320, sigma power 240, ezeelap dm 250 in the same range and the king is superior. I follow with an even harder chosera 600 and they are a great hard team
Cheers


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## Matus (Jan 21, 2015)

Jpox - that is interesting to hear about the King stone indeed. On the fine-tools.com there is a comment next to this stone that reads as follows: 



> This stone is for carbon steel blades only. Alloyed steel blocks the grain.



I suppose they mean that the stone tends to clog up with stainless steel. May I ask what is your experience with this stone with stainless steels (core or cladding)?


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## chinacats (Jan 21, 2015)

CoqaVin said:


> I heard through the grapevine that the Suehiro Cerax 320 is one of the best coarse stones



I hope so. My double sized one is on the way from Stu, should get it in the next week or so.:doublethumbsup:


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## psfred (Jan 21, 2015)

I have the King Deluxe 300 and have not had any problems with it clogging. It will dish if you use lots of pressure though, and dished faster when I was thinning a cheap stainless knife. Didn't clog, but it did wear much faster than with anything else. Feels a great deal like my Naniwa SS 220 and cuts almost as fast, but without the mud and dishing. Usually only see black swarf made of metal particles when using it. 

Splash and go, too.

Peter


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## Jpox (Jan 22, 2015)

Matus - I have only used the king on carbon so far. I have a yoshikane with stainless cladding and sld core that is pretty much fully stainless but I haven't used it on the king yet though.
So far I would agree with Fred and I would add that if the king clogs or dishes I am pretty sure it will be much easier to correct than on any other more soft stone. The king fights dising and eats metal in a very nice pace - of course it still have to see the dm plate but not nearly as much and as long as you let the stone work via moderate pressure you don't see that 'forming-after-the-knife shape a coarse stone can get if not careful
Cheers


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## Jpox (Jan 25, 2015)

Matus said:


> Jpox - that is interesting to hear about the King stone indeed. On the fine-tools.com there is a comment next to this stone that reads as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose they mean that the stone tends to clog up with stainless steel. May I ask what is your experience with this stone with stainless steels (core or cladding)?



Hi Matus
I sharpend a soft ss global and I did notice that the king wasent as fast cutting in the stainless steel as the next in line (the chosera 600) but the qualities the king exhibits still makes it preferable as a coarse metal-eating-machine!


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## sherrib (Aug 19, 2015)

Hi Everyone, 

Ok, so, putting the coarse stone discussion on the back burner for now, I have a 1k/6k combo stone (Mizuyama) and am thinking I need something in between. Can anyone recommend a good 3k or 4k stone?


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## ChuckTheButcher (Aug 19, 2015)

mkriggen said:


> I've found that I ALWAYS need another stone:devilburn:
> 
> Be well,
> Mikey



Ha, I agree. To me they're just as addictive as the knives. I always wanna try a new one and see the nuances of them on different steals. What kind of 1k/6k combo stone do you have? I would say your next stones should be a low grit 220-500. I'd recommend the beston 500 or the gesshin 400. Although these are more for for fixes and thinning and such. Then I'd get something in an aoto range. 2-3k. If you start using wide and single bevel knives it's not just about "sharpening" but also about a nice contrast between jigne and hagne. Different stones for different steals and styles. I personally recomend shapton pro's, anything gesshin, suehiro rikka and kitiyama 8,000. These are my go tos.


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## brooksie967 (Aug 27, 2015)

ChuckTheButcher said:


> Ha, I agree. To me they're just as addictive as the knives. I always wanna try a new one and see the nuances of them on different steals. What kind of 1k/6k combo stone do you have? I would say your next stones should be a low grit 220-500. I'd recommend the beston 500 or the gesshin 400. Although these are more for for fixes and thinning and such. Then I'd get something in an aoto range. 2-3k. If you start using wide and single bevel knives it's not just about "sharpening" but also about a nice contrast between jigne and hagne. Different stones for different steals and styles. I personally recomend shapton pro's, anything gesshin, suehiro rikka and kitiyama 8,000. These are my go tos.




So true on so many levels, especially natural stones. I don't see anyone mentioning diamond plates for lower grit work, i really like using 325/600 grit diamond plates before a 1k synthetic and then onto naturals.


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## zitangy (Aug 27, 2015)

a 400 to 600 grit stone wld come in handy eventually

If it is not resulting in a toothy edge ( Apex) fast enough.. or a burr , I wld drop to a lower grit for a few strokes and see how it goes and then proceed to the 1000 grit to refine and knock off any burrs if any. Repeat if necessary if it is taking too long till you are familiar with the steel removal rate of the stone.

whether it is 400 grit or 600 grit.. i suppose your regular pressure counts .. if you are small size like me and do not hv heavy hands, i wld go for the 400 grit.

Eventually.. by feeling the toothiness of an edge.. you wld be able to figure out the amt of steel to be removed and where and correspondingly use the appropriate stone (grit) with the corresponding pressure and angle along the way..

rgds
d


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2015)

The use of a coarse stone does not necessarily mean you have to abrade a lot of steel. It's just highly efficient. A few strokes are enough. And I get much better results on Aogami and some stainless when I start with a 400.


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2015)

Starting with a coarse stone doesn't mean you have to abrade a lot of steel. In most cases just a few strokes will do. It's just more efficient, and in sharpening, short work equals precise work. With Aogami and some advanced stainless I get much better results when starting with a 400. Use the coarse stone only in a full progression. In most cases, touching up with the second finest stone and the finest one are all you need.


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