# Steel of Heiji knives?



## mark76 (Mar 12, 2015)

Who knows what steel Heiji knives are made of. Heiji writes on his site: "special Sweden steel" and "Japanese iron".

Is there anyone who knows more? And who knows how reactive this "special Sweden steel" is (assuming it is carbon steel).

And the same question for their semi-stainless knives: what steel is this made of?


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## TheDispossessed (Mar 12, 2015)

honestly,
i would be more concerned with the fact that that guy really knows how to treat those metals properly. I couldn't tell you much about the specifics of his materials but heiji can bring out the best from them, which is of primary importance.


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## daveb (Mar 12, 2015)

What dispo said. 

I'm no more concerned with what steel Heiiji uses in his knives than I am with what wood he uses in his saya. It's Heiiji steel. Probably proprietary. Even if you got an answer how would you verify it?


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## chinacats (Mar 12, 2015)

I believe it's' the same special steel Shig uses, special should be all you need to know.


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## mark76 (Mar 12, 2015)

I know Heiji is one of the most respected knife makers. I know his heat treatment is very good. I'd just like to know what the steel (carbon and semi-stainless) is.


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## Ruso (Mar 12, 2015)

Semistainles is SKD11 or 12. Does it tell you much?


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## XooMG (Mar 12, 2015)

Curiosity is curiosity. It'd be neat to know. No need to dogpile with cultic mantras about "maker not steel" this time.


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## mhlee (Mar 12, 2015)

XooMG said:


> Curiosity is curiosity. It'd be neat to know. No need to dogpile with cultic mantras about "maker not steel" this time.



Look at the threads the OP starts.


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## labor of love (Mar 12, 2015)

mhlee said:


> Look at the threads the OP starts.



this.


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## chinacats (Mar 12, 2015)

...


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Mar 12, 2015)

labor of love said:


> this.



This what?

Mark is exploring a growing world of kitchen knives and keep asking all sorts of questions. I'm also interested in what steels are being used by Heiji and few other Japanese makers.


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## JBroida (Mar 12, 2015)

the carbon steel is the same as what shigefusa uses... the iwasaki special carbon. The semi-stainless he would rather have remain a secret.

One of the problems with forums like this is that people dont always respect makers wishes in that regard, and once its on here, its out there forever.


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## glestain (Mar 12, 2015)

I think 'labor of love' indicate mhlee reread OP.


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## harlock0083 (Mar 12, 2015)

JBroida said:


> the carbon steel is the same as what shigefusa uses... the iwasaki special carbon. The semi-stainless he would rather have remain a secret.
> 
> One of the problems with forums like this is that people dont always respect makers wishes in that regard, and once its on here, its out there forever.



Like Greg Oden's leaked pics.


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## mhlee (Mar 12, 2015)

glestain said:


> I think 'labor of love' indicate mhlee reread OP.



Let's see if Labor wants to clarify what he wrote before making assumptions.


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## glestain (Mar 12, 2015)

Yeah. I might interpret incorrectly.


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## RRLOVER (Mar 12, 2015)

I want to know what I am Buying!!!!!......I don't give crap about how "Respected" the maker is.....You are selling a product!!!....There's no Magic in knifemaking....All that "Super Secrcet" and "Special" talk is just a bunch of Bull$hit!!!.....My OCD needs to know.....I may not be alone with opinion....or maybe I am


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## labor of love (Mar 12, 2015)

RRLOVER said:


> I want to know what I am Buying!!!!!......I don't give crap about how "Respected" the maker is.....You are selling a product!!!....There's no Magic in knifemaking....All that "Super Secrcet" and "Special" talk is just a bunch of Bull$hit!!!.....My OCD needs to know.....I may not be alone with opinion....or maybe I am



Then buy something else. No harm, no foul. Plenty of feedback is available on this forum for anyone who wants to know how heiji steel performs if you use the search function. I love both heiji steels and could care less in regards to what steel is used.


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## panda (Mar 12, 2015)

swedish version of white #1!


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## mark76 (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks guys! That gives some insight. It's a knife that performs great and it's nice to know what I'm cutting with.


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## Cheeks1989 (Mar 12, 2015)

Im with you mark at of all my knives the one that is never leaving me is my heiji.


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## XooMG (Mar 12, 2015)

labor of love said:


> Then buy something else. No harm, no foul. Plenty of feedback is available on this forum for anyone who wants to know how heiji steel performs if you use the search function. I love both heiji steels and could care less in regards to what steel is used.


I agree with Mario that not knowing and having wool kept over the eyes is irritating. That you don't care is wonderful, but then why are you telling others, including competent knifemakers, that they shouldn't care? It is well understood by reasonable people (and especially by those of us who have heat-treated steel; I have, and I think Mario has) that heat treatment is critical, but we still like knowing what's actually in the dish and don't like being told it's special secret this or that.


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## chinacats (Mar 12, 2015)

I thought Mario was being a smartass...I agree with LOL, if a maker wants to tell you, then fine but if not and it bothers you then go elsewhere.

The funniest part of this thread is that Mark asked about Heiji's carbon which is not the steel that Heiji keeps secret--it's posted on his website I believe--he certainly will tell you by email if you ask


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## XooMG (Mar 12, 2015)

chinacats said:


> I thought Mario was being a smartass...I agree with LOL, if a maker wants to tell you, then fine but if not and it bothers you then go elsewhere.
> 
> The funniest part of this thread is that Mark asked about Heiji's carbon which is not the steel that Heiji keeps secret--it's posted on his website I believe--he certainly will tell you by email if you ask


Yeah Mario may have been facetious, but I agree with some of it nonetheless. It is fine to say "I don't know" in cases of secrecy, but that's not being done here. Rather, we get some patronizing regurgitated mantra about trusting the maker. Yes, I can accept that folks don't know, and can choose to shop elsewhere or proceed to buy in ignorance, but I'd prefer to not have my curiosity derided.


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## chinacats (Mar 12, 2015)

The point here though is that it's not a secret, Heiji clearly states what carbon steel he uses and is just as clear that his semi-stainless is a secret. 3 pages to get to something that you can Google is what can be frustrating.


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## rami_m (Mar 12, 2015)

Its entertaining.


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## ThEoRy (Mar 12, 2015)

I thought the swedish stainless was aebl. Anyone?


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## chinacats (Mar 12, 2015)

I am not aware of Heiji making stainless...just carbon and semi-stainless.

As to AEB-l, I believe it is a Swedish Stainless, but Swedish Stainless is not necessarily AEB-l.

According to Gator's guide, it's made by Uddeholm, while the similar 13c26 is made by Sandvik.


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## labor of love (Mar 12, 2015)

XooMG said:


> I agree with Mario that not knowing and having wool kept over the eyes is irritating. That you don't care is wonderful, but then why are you telling others, including competent knifemakers, that they shouldn't care? It is well understood by reasonable people (and especially by those of us who have heat-treated steel; I have, and I think Mario has) that heat treatment is critical, but we still like knowing what's actually in the dish and don't like being told it's special secret this or that.



Relax man . I never told anybody here that they shouldnt care, but rather that the actual steel mattered very little to me. Sure, I would like to know what the steel is I guess...but thats not going to change any of the great characteristics of Heiji knives.


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## labor of love (Mar 13, 2015)

RRLOVER said:


> I want to know what I am Buying!!!!!......I don't give crap about how "Respected" the maker is.....You are selling a product!!!....There's no Magic in knifemaking....All that "Super Secrcet" and "Special" talk is just a bunch of Bull$hit!!!.....My OCD needs to know.....I may not be alone with opinion....or maybe I am





labor of love said:


> Then buy something else. No harm, no foul. Plenty of feedback is available on this forum for anyone who wants to know how heiji steel performs if you use the search function. I love both heiji steels and could care less in regards to what steel is used.



I dunno, I thought my response was civil. Maybe not. In any case it is what it is. There are so many makers to choose from, if it irks some here that certain makers prefer to keep the steels they work with secretive then you should probably just avoid doing business with them. I dont think complaining on forums will change a makers policy in this regard. I suppose you can try.


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## labor of love (Mar 13, 2015)

glestain said:


> I think 'labor of love' indicate mhlee reread OP.



Not at all. "this" as is in ditto what Mhlee said...


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## EdipisReks (Mar 13, 2015)

glestain said:


> I think 'labor of love' indicate mhlee reread OP.



First time on the internet?


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## cclin (Mar 13, 2015)

FWIW, If you understand Nakaya heiji's background, is not too hard to guess which semi-stainless steel he use. IMO, what makes Heiji knife different from others is his geometry & heat treatment. Same type of steel very different feel!!


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## Matus (Mar 13, 2015)

RRLOVER said:


> I want to know what I am Buying!!!!!......I don't give crap about how "Respected" the maker is.....You are selling a product!!!....There's no Magic in knifemaking....All that "Super Secrcet" and "Special" talk is just a bunch of Bull$hit!!!.....My OCD needs to know.....I may not be alone with opinion....or maybe I am



I can understand the curiosity and partially the attitude, but most products you ever buy do not come with full disclosure of materials use (whether patented or not). Next time you buy a car try to persuade the company that you mast know the composition of the alloy the use for the engine block. I know, it is not quite the same but you get the picture.


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## panda (Mar 13, 2015)

kfc super duper secret recipe of 13 different herbs&spices.


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## Lizzardborn (Mar 13, 2015)

Buy one, send it to a lab, compare to Gator table ...


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Mar 13, 2015)

JBroida said:


> the carbon steel is the same as what shigefusa uses... the iwasaki special carbon. The semi-stainless he would rather have remain a secret.
> 
> One of the problems with forums like this is that people dont always respect makers wishes in that regard, and once its on here, its out there forever.


Jon, it respect is the like the bridge that can stand only if it has ground on both sides. Personally I treat maker's hiding information about the steel to be disrespectful to me, so it hard for me to really respect the maker (regardless of how stellar his knives can be). Kind of vicious circle. I don't respect maker because he don't respect me. 



Matus said:


> I can understand the curiosity and partially the attitude, but most products you ever buy do not come with full disclosure of materials use (whether patented or not). Next time you buy a car try to persuade the company that you mast know the composition of the alloy the use for the engine block. I know, it is not quite the same but you get the picture.


Well i feel like your example with a car isn't accurate. Knives doesn't not have lots of attributes: grind, length, weight, steel, ht. Just a few attributes, not hundreds and thousands as some complex objects like a car has. So imagine yourself coming to a local BMW dealer. You like that new shiny car. You ask how much horse power it has and dealer told you: "Oh, the number is a secret, but trust me, it will be enough for you". Some people would buy a car and drive hapily. I would turn around and never ever visit this dealer. Nothing wrong with either point of view, they are just different.

Besides, here's another point that IMO hasn't been covered in this thread. Imagine that Heiji wouldn't keep any secrets and would tell you even the tiniest details about his knives. Do you think we could make a 4 pages thread about information that is openly available? I guess not. So in the best traditions of conspiracy theory I have to suggest that Heiji is keeping his secrets specifically to heat few discussions on the forum among few knives nuts around the world


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## TheDispossessed (Mar 13, 2015)

What i want to know when i am knife shopping is,
what type of steel, when was it purchased from what batch (some kind of serial number is helpful here), how long it was stored at what temperature and humidity, what mood the smith was in when he forged, what the weather was like that day, GPS location for the origin of the handle wood, exactly in explicit detail all of the forging process including any and all trade secrets and proprietary technology, how many children the smith has and what ages, what color box it will be packed in, a few other things i forget now,
this helps me when i decide i'd like the smith to make me a blade to my exact specifications that dispenses with the elements of his design and style that i personally don't like. 
all of this information is ultimately helpful when i put the knife up on BST a month after it's arrival because it's not quite what i was looking for.


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## panda (Mar 13, 2015)

Don't forget how gassy he was at the time of grinding the knife, can lead to hollows.


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## marc4pt0 (Mar 13, 2015)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V8SjkDq2ZwI


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## marc4pt0 (Mar 13, 2015)

mhlee said:


> Look at the threads the OP starts.



However, this just isn't very groovy, and not needed. Tsk Tsk Tsk


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## kdeleon (Mar 13, 2015)

This thread is so funny. But the food analogy is perfect (like the person that mentioned KFC). The metal is like the ingredients and the forging is the cooking process. There are many restaurants that won't tell you their secret list of ingredients or exactly how they prepare it. Some will. Have you ban every single restaurant because they won't tell you everything and exactly what type of ingredients they use. Even when you ask, they will give you a basic idea just like you get here, it is stainless or carbon. After that, you have to trust the reviews is good at cutting, how does it sharpen, etc. Let the cook take care of the process and you enjoy the result.


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## James (Mar 13, 2015)

kdeleon said:


> This thread is so funny. But the food analogy is perfect (like the person that mentioned KFC). The metal is like the ingredients and the forging is the cooking process. There are many restaurants that won't tell you their secret list of ingredients or exactly how they prepare it. Some will. Have you ban every single restaurant because they won't tell you everything and exactly what type of ingredients they use. Even when you ask, they will give you a basic idea just like you get here, it is stainless or carbon. After that, you have to trust the reviews is good at cutting, how does it sharpen, etc. Let the cook take care of the process and you enjoy the result.



I agree, but I'll go a bit against the crowd here and still say that steel is very relevant. It has some role in setting one's expectations for edge quality, ease of sharpening, edge retention and brittleness, and frankly, it's fun knowing. Not a big fan of the saltiness going on here; no need for some of the members to attack the poor guy.


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## JBroida (Mar 13, 2015)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Jon, it respect is the like the bridge that can stand only if it has ground on both sides. Personally I treat maker's hiding information about the steel to be disrespectful to me, so it hard for me to really respect the maker (regardless of how stellar his knives can be). Kind of vicious circle. I don't respect maker because he don't respect me.
> 
> 
> Well i feel like your example with a car isn't accurate. Knives doesn't not have lots of attributes: grind, length, weight, steel, ht. Just a few attributes, not hundreds and thousands as some complex objects like a car has. So imagine yourself coming to a local BMW dealer. You like that new shiny car. You ask how much horse power it has and dealer told you: "Oh, the number is a secret, but trust me, it will be enough for you". Some people would buy a car and drive hapily. I would turn around and never ever visit this dealer. Nothing wrong with either point of view, they are just different.
> ...



Yeah... i totally get where you are coming from. I see both sides of it. On one hand, customers want to know as much as they can to make informed decisions. On the other hand, sellers want to protect themselves from people trying to copy them or market based on saying certain aspects are the same. Its a tough call most of the time. In this particular case, the choice not to share is Heiji's, so I can just respect his wishes. However, there are many things that i personally choose not to disclose... for example, there are some knives i sell where i choose not to disclose the steel publicly. In most cases, my decision on this is a function of a few different issues...

First, most of the time, knowing the steel type does very little to inform customers about how a knife will act. They are in a much better position as far as understanding goes if they know whether a steel is stainless, carbon, or semi-stainless, whether it is finely grained or a bit more coarse grained, what kind of relative edge retention they can expect, what they can expect in terms of relative ease of sharpening and edge taking, and so forth. So, i try to provide that kind of information. Second, not putting so much out there encourages people to contact us and ask questions, and i prefer to have as much customer interaction as possible. There are many cases where i dont list the steel type, but am happy to share it with people that ask.

Anyways, the main point here is that i see your point and i dont necessarily disagree. I would just hope that people can be more understanding of when craftsmen chose to share or not share information. If you're not particularly happy with the way one goes about this, there are plenty of other craftsmen out there to choose from. But, continuing on and on about how someone is bad for not sharing something they have the right to share or not share gets us nowhere.


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## Fritzkrieg (Mar 13, 2015)

Jon's the man! :goodpost: 
I think people get too steel-obsessed because of a subconscious drive for classifying things in a granular sense (I suffer from this myself) but I think the decision to withhold the steel type lets the curious ones amongst us avoid preconceptions, and there is something to be said for honoring the maker's wishes.


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## panda (Mar 13, 2015)

if somebody is using not knowing specific steel type as a reason not to try out a knife, it's their loss..


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## XooMG (Mar 14, 2015)

I think the misconception is in the use of the knowledge. I don't see functional advantage in it any more than I want to know what wood is in a magnetic rack. In the same way that someone wants to tell me the wood is special but doesn't want me to know what it is, and the justification is most often that they don't want less reputable folks to steal the name and market knockoffs, I can sympathize but also really do not like that kind of scarcity mentality and distrust.

I have stuff from Iwasaki and others who use "special" secret steels, but I still much prefer dealing with people who don't see me as a potential thief.


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## gic (Mar 14, 2015)

To me while it is very important to know if it is stainless or not stainless cladded, or if the core steel is stainless, semi stainless or carbon, knowing which steel it is in these classes is not really so important to me except, if for some reason, I wants to try say AS steel or white #1 - I certainly have bought knives made by a specific vendor but also with a specific steel I wanted to try out. (So first I chose the vendor whose geometry I likmed, then I chose a steel I wanted to try if I had a choice...)

But in the end what I care about for most of my knives is how reactive the knife is, its ease of sharpening, its edge retention and of course its toughness/brittleness... 

That having been said, sometimes the secretiveness is just silly, like zwilling's coming up with their own names for what appear to be relatively standard steels....


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## JBroida (Mar 14, 2015)

consider this... a few years back, no one ever talked about aeb-l. Then devin's knives in aeb-l became really popular. All of the sudden, aeb-l knives appear everywhere, with already strong reputations based on steel type. Similar things happened with 19c27 (suisin inox honyaki), SLD, and so forth. Clearly not the same knives, but still riding the same reputations. It really does effect retailers.


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## Von blewitt (Mar 14, 2015)

Hoss was the one who came to my mind reading this thread, he does disclose most of his steels, but others are sold under the mystery carbon, mystery semi stainless etc, personally it doesn't bother me what steel a knife is made from as long as it has the characteristics in looking for.


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## XooMG (Mar 14, 2015)

JBroida said:


> consider this... a few years back, no one ever talked about aeb-l. Then devin's knives in aeb-l became really popular. All of the sudden, aeb-l knives appear everywhere, with already strong reputations based on steel type. Similar things happened with 19c27 (suisin inox honyaki), SLD, and so forth. Clearly not the same knives, but still riding the same reputations. It really does effect retailers.


I live in Taiwan and spend a fair bit of time in China...I'm pretty familiar with the game...and I also saw the development and hype and clone cycles of other steels many years ago. Nothing new...just faster now.

However, it may be worth mentioning that Devin's contribution to AEB-L's popularity is not simply in the admission that he uses it, but that he sees it as a superior steel and goes to quite a bit of trouble to explain why. Now he seems to shield names to prevent the same thing fromhappening to give him a marketing edge. Again, I understand, but I don't appreciate. I am a potential enemy, and my knowledge only serves as a risk factor to his business. I try to ignore it when possible, but it is always a stain on the relationship.

My distaste for this thinking is not the reason I initially responded in this thread though...my contention was that everyone thinks that the knowledge is being demanded under the pretense of functionality, which it needn't be. Curiosity is enough reason to ask, and insulting curiosity with presumptuous bromides about "maker, not steel" is irritating...especially when it's generally coming from people who are just regurgitating it without any actual knowledge of steel or heat treatment.


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## JBroida (Mar 14, 2015)

makes sense to me


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## XooMG (Mar 14, 2015)

And apologies to everyone if I sound caustic or bellicose.


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## panda (Mar 14, 2015)

why do you take it personally?


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## labor of love (Mar 14, 2015)

XooMG said:


> I agree with Mario that not knowing and having wool kept over the eyes is irritating. That you don't care is wonderful, but then why are you telling others....





XooMG said:


> It is fine to say "I don't know" in cases of secrecy, but that's not being done here. Rather, we get some patronizing regurgitated mantra about trusting the maker. Yes, I can accept that folks don't know, and can choose to shop elsewhere or proceed to buy in ignorance, but I'd prefer to not have my curiosity derided.





XooMG said:


> Curiosity is enough reason to ask, and insulting curiosity with presumptuous bromides about "maker, not steel" is irritating...especially when it's generally coming from people who are just regurgitating it without any actual knowledge of steel or heat treatment.


Yes...why are you taking this so personally?


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## chinacats (Mar 14, 2015)

Xoomg, with all your experience and knowledge, why not make your own knives--this way you will be confident that you know the steel?:biggrin:


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## Timthebeaver (Mar 14, 2015)

If you don't like the fact that a maker chooses to have trade secrets, don't buy. Simple.

If you don't appreciate the importance of proprietary information to a business/organisation, you are either very naive, or foolish.


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## marc4pt0 (Mar 14, 2015)

I don't think name calling and negative references are called for here. Do you? 
I clearly need to stop reading this thread. It's just getting very negative. I suspect it's already yielded all the info it could, probably more so than the OP was expecting.


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## XooMG (Mar 14, 2015)

Edit: retracted.


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## MrOli (Mar 14, 2015)

marc4pt0 said:


> I don't think name calling and negative references are called for here. Do you?
> I clearly need to stop reading this thread. It's just getting very negative. I suspect it's already yielded all the info it could, probably more so than the OP was expecting.



+1

I am sure ruling out a purchase due to a lack of information on the steel is absolutely fine. XooMG has always been a gentleman in our conversations.


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## Ruso (Mar 14, 2015)

I tend to agree with XooMG and "cheezburger". I prefer to know what kind of steel is being used in the particular knife. It's like ingredients on the box. You know what do you buy but the secret of making it is hidden. I think this is the "near" perfect balance of consumer knowledge vs trade secret. 
I do not go to the extent of not buying this type of knifes but it definitely irritates me.


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## MrOli (Mar 14, 2015)

While we are talking about Heiji I noticed JKI has a picture of an ATS-34 damascus Gyuto looking very much like a Yoshikane SLD damascus. How comparable are those 2 steels? I also know Yoshikane offers an ATS-34 version of the SLD with the same finish.


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## JBroida (Mar 14, 2015)

i have no such blade on my site... nothing with ats-34 anywhere on my site


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## Fritzkrieg (Mar 14, 2015)

Maybe he meant JCK?


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## MrOli (Mar 14, 2015)

Apologies to JKI, I was on your page admiring to inventory but the ATS-34 was in the other window at Japan Tools...

http://www.japan-tool.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30_34&products_id=108


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## chinacats (Mar 14, 2015)

MrOli said:


> Apologies to JKI, I was on your page admiring to inventory but the ATS-34 was in the other window at Japan Tools...
> 
> http://www.japan-tool.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30_34&products_id=108



I'm thinking japan tool is going to be in trouble with Heiji? :O

I too thought this was either an SKD/SLD steel...


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## MrOli (Mar 14, 2015)

Unless of course these were custom made for Japan Tool to their very own specs.


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## chinacats (Mar 14, 2015)

Or the Damascus is made with different steel than the semi-stainless, but the description is identical to his descripittion of the semi-stainless on his site.

...never thought he'd use stainless, but tried it at home and good enough to make Heiji knife


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## James (Mar 14, 2015)

"Knife from Heiji, is really very different from the conventional stainless steel knives. This is something Heiji-san made tentatively for his personal use at home, and since it was much better than he had expected, he figured it can be sold as "Heiji". He never believed stainless steel tools were worth selling as Heiji tools, but these, I totally agree with him that they are good enough to be made as "Heiji" brand."

From the description, it seems like something he started making relatively recently


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## EdipisReks (Mar 14, 2015)

James said:


> "Knife from Heiji, is really very different from the conventional stainless steel knives. This is something Heiji-san made tentatively for his personal use at home, and since it was much better than he had expected, he figured it can be sold as "Heiji". He never believed stainless steel tools were worth selling as Heiji tools, but these, I totally agree with him that they are good enough to be made as "Heiji" brand."
> 
> From the description, it seems like something he started making relatively recently



no, this has been the standard copy for the semi-stainless knives for years.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Mar 14, 2015)

But ATS-34 is not a semi-stainless steel.


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## EdipisReks (Mar 14, 2015)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> But ATS-34 is not a semi-stainless steel.



the semi-stainless has been called stainless on many sites for a long time. I remember reading the story about Heiji-san and his having forged "stainless" blades for his own home use from back when I first got into Japanese kitchen knives.


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## Geo87 (Mar 14, 2015)

Well I thought this thread remained pretty civil IMO  
XooMG with respect, I think you are taking this rather personally. 
I don't think knife makers are distrusting you the consumer. 
Perhaps nakaya heiji doesn't want to release his steel for fear of creating marketing hype about that steel, allowing other makers to potentially gain business off his hard work? 

It's already been mentioned but say hypothetically I wanted to start making kitchen knives. If I made them in aeb-l or 52100 then I would have more business due to other makers hard work building hype about these steels.


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## JBroida (Mar 14, 2015)

I don't really see how any of this was personal... I have no problem with xoomg or his posts here... I actually liked that we could have this kind of conversation in here


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## Geo87 (Mar 14, 2015)

I enjoyed it too. Sorry for the confusion what I meant was I feel he may be taking makers choosing to not reveal their steel types personally. 
I also enjoy XooMG's comments and conversations


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## labor of love (Mar 14, 2015)

Lizzardborn said:


> Buy one, send it to a lab, compare to Gator table ...



The best post in the entire thread.


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## mhlee (Mar 16, 2015)

marc4pt0 said:


> However, this just isn't very groovy, and not needed. Tsk Tsk Tsk



Why not? I didn't say anything negative. In fact, at least one member agreed with what I wrote. 

You're assuming a lot about what I wrote which is no more "groovy" than what you're accusing me of. And if you're going to criticize me, you should also criticize others who agree with me. 

But, if you want you single me out, go for it. I'll be happy to pay extra attention to what you write.


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## malexthekid (Mar 16, 2015)

mhlee said:


> Why not? I didn't say anything negative. In fact, at least one member agreed with what I wrote.
> 
> You're assuming a lot about what I wrote which is no more "groovy" than what you're accusing me of. And if you're going to criticize me, you should also criticize others who agree with me.
> 
> But, if you want you single me out, go for it. I'll be happy to pay extra attention to what you write.



Pretty sure you proved any point he was trying to make.


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Mar 16, 2015)

Geo87 said:


> Well I thought this thread remained pretty civil IMO


Your observation may have been premature.


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## glestain (Mar 16, 2015)

EdipisReks said:


> First time on the internet?



Is this a joke?


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## Stuart Richardson (Mar 26, 2015)

I can very much understand the makers in this particular issue. My main work is as a photographer and a printer. I mostly print exhibitions for museums and galleries. In doing so, I spend a lot of time researching paper and particular printing techniques. On several occasions, I have had people ask me what papers I use because they liked my work, and then proceed to ask cheaper print-shops to print for them on those papers. In one case, a well-known photographer came to my studio and I did some test prints for him. He said they were the best prints he had ever seen of his work, and he wanted me to print his exhibition for him. I really wanted to do it, so I gave him as low a quote as I possibly could. He said he was fine with it, so I went and bought over a thousand dollars of paper to do the job (it was fairly large). I did not hear from him for a while, and finally called him to see what the status was. He had printed in China for little more than the cost that I had to pay for the paper. The work was done on the same paper, but did not look very good. 

I do not hide the papers I use from my customers...I happily promote them, as they are among the finest available, but I can certainly sympathize, however, with the makers who don't like to tell people exactly what their components are. It is extremely frustrating at times to see people who think they can predetermine the results based on the components. I had another customer who came in for some test prints and then told me, "Oh, I did not realize how important the paper was. I just got the paper and my friend printed it for me." I did not see the final result, but I am fairly certain mine would have been better...I hope not to sound too arrogant in saying that, but this is something I live and breathe! When you get a print from me, the paper and printer that I use are not the largest component in the quality of the work...it is the experience I have in using them properly, in having the whole process calibrated and controlled, and the time spent in working with you to get it exactly how you want it. 

In the same way, the steel in a Heiji knife has been very carefully chosen by Heiji to fulfill his requirements in a kitchen knife, and his method of production will give that steel unique properties. The fact that it is steel number XYZ from Japan or Sweden really has little to do with the actual results. I agree, however, that it can be really interesting to know the details, especially if the curiosity is from a good place (which I think it usually is!). In this context, I think respecting the maker's choice is best, and if it is a problem for you, I would suggest contacting them or the vendor and talking to them about it, perhaps they will not tell you, but I am sure they will tell you about their steels properties and why they choose it. If it still does not satisfy you, there are many craftsmen making wonderful knives that are completely open about their raw materials.


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## TheDispossessed (Mar 26, 2015)

what this guy said +10



Stuart Richardson said:


> I can very much understand the makers in this particular issue. My main work is as a photographer and a printer. I mostly print exhibitions for museums and galleries. In doing so, I spend a lot of time researching paper and particular printing techniques. On several occasions, I have had people ask me what papers I use because they liked my work, and then proceed to ask cheaper print-shops to print for them on those papers. In one case, a well-known photographer came to my studio and I did some test prints for him. He said they were the best prints he had ever seen of his work, and he wanted me to print his exhibition for him. I really wanted to do it, so I gave him as low a quote as I possibly could. He said he was fine with it, so I went and bought over a thousand dollars of paper to do the job (it was fairly large). I did not hear from him for a while, and finally called him to see what the status was. He had printed in China for little more than the cost that I had to pay for the paper. The work was done on the same paper, but did not look very good.
> 
> I do not hide the papers I use from my customers...I happily promote them, as they are among the finest available, but I can certainly sympathize, however, with the makers who don't like to tell people exactly what their components are. It is extremely frustrating at times to see people who think they can predetermine the results based on the components. I had another customer who came in for some test prints and then told me, "Oh, I did not realize how important the paper was. I just got the paper and my friend printed it for me." I did not see the final result, but I am fairly certain mine would have been better...I hope not to sound too arrogant in saying that, but this is something I live and breathe! When you get a print from me, the paper and printer that I use are not the largest component in the quality of the work...it is the experience I have in using them properly, in having the whole process calibrated and controlled, and the time spent in working with you to get it exactly how you want it.
> 
> In the same way, the steel in a Heiji knife has been very carefully chosen by Heiji to fulfill his requirements in a kitchen knife, and his method of production will give that steel unique properties. The fact that it is steel number XYZ from Japan or Sweden really has little to do with the actual results. I agree, however, that it can be really interesting to know the details, especially if the curiosity is from a good place (which I think it usually is!). In this context, I think respecting the maker's choice is best, and if it is a problem for you, I would suggest contacting them or the vendor and talking to them about it, perhaps they will not tell you, but I am sure they will tell you about their steels properties and why they choose it. If it still does not satisfy you, there are many craftsmen making wonderful knives that are completely open about their raw materials.


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## Timthebeaver (Mar 26, 2015)

"a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing". Oscar Wilde, on the cynic.

This thread is making me want a carbon Heiji.


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## krx927 (Mar 26, 2015)

He he, I have 4 on order but need to wait until June... 3 custom nakiris and one petty, all stainless.


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## Zwiefel (Mar 26, 2015)

krx927 said:


> 3 custom nakiris



This is a surprising order to me...gifts? or each of them intended for something different?


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## TheDispossessed (Mar 26, 2015)

juggling


Zwiefel said:


> This is a surprising order to me...gifts? or each of them intended for something different?


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## mhlee (Mar 26, 2015)

malexthekid said:


> Pretty sure you proved any point he was trying to make.



Actually, no.


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## krx927 (Mar 26, 2015)

Zwiefel said:


> This is a surprising order to me...gifts? or each of them intended for something different?



I am reading a lot how people have a designated knife for designated task. I am taking this further. I want to have one for onions, one for carrots and separate for zucchini. I want o have different patina on all of them 

Just kidding, yes they are gifts for my 2 kids and nephew...


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## Mucho Bocho (Mar 26, 2015)

krx927 said:


> I am reading a lot how people have a designated knife for designated task. I am taking this further. I want to have one for onions, one for carrots and separate for zucchini. I want o have different patina on all of them
> 
> Just kidding, yes they are gifts for my 2 kids and nephew...



I missed the joke? You don't have an onion knife? ;-)


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## krx927 (Mar 26, 2015)

You misted another one: patina on stainless


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## seattle_lee (Mar 28, 2015)

Timthebeaver said:


> "a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing". Oscar Wilde, on the cynic.
> 
> This thread is making me want a carbon Heiji.



Go semi-stainless. 

You won't regret it.


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## chinacats (Mar 28, 2015)

seattle_lee said:


> Go semi-stainless.
> 
> You won't regret it.



I did...great knife but I prefer carbon...


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## TheDispossessed (Mar 28, 2015)

there once was a time when i would have preferred semi-stainless, but now i'd go for carbon. Having essentially retired from a pro kitchen and now cooking at home I have less desire than ever to have any stainless knives.


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## Timthebeaver (Mar 28, 2015)

seattle_lee said:


> Go semi-stainless.
> 
> You won't regret it.



My go-to is a Yoshikane kasumi in SKD-12.


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## johndavid (Sep 8, 2016)

JBroida said:


> Yeah... i totally get where you are coming from. I see both sides of it. On one hand, customers want to know as much as they can to make informed decisions. On the other hand, sellers want to protect themselves from people trying to copy them or market based on saying certain aspects are the same. Its a tough call most of the time. In this particular case, the choice not to share is Heiji's, so I can just respect his wishes. However, there are many things that i personally choose not to disclose... for example, there are some knives i sell where i choose not to disclose the steel publicly. In most cases, my decision on this is a function of a few different issues...
> 
> First, most of the time, knowing the steel type does very little to inform customers about how a knife will act. They are in a much better position as far as understanding goes if they know whether a steel is stainless, carbon, or semi-stainless, whether it is finely grained or a bit more coarse grained, what kind of relative edge retention they can expect, what they can expect in terms of relative ease of sharpening and edge taking, and so forth. So, i try to provide that kind of information. Second, not putting so much out there encourages people to contact us and ask questions, and i prefer to have as much customer interaction as possible. There are many cases where i dont list the steel type, but am happy to share it with people that ask.
> 
> Anyways, the main point here is that i see your point and i dont necessarily disagree. I would just hope that people can be more understanding of when craftsmen chose to share or not share information. If you're not particularly happy with the way one goes about this, there are plenty of other craftsmen out there to choose from. But, continuing on and on about how someone is bad for not sharing something they have the right to share or not share gets us nowhere.



I think this is a nice way of saying that knife craftsmanship, in general, peeked long ago - and what is left is little innovation but instead we are stuck with obscurity and prioritization to protect a "secret" sauce. 

Instead, let a hand full of craftsmen use the exact same raw materials so that the consumer can appreciate the value that the craftsman adds via his knowledge and skill of working with such materials ... and not about the widely available not so secret materials used to create the product. 

We call them knife craftsmen, not knife proprietors whom hold trade secrets and patents.


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## foody518 (Sep 8, 2016)

I don't think that what Jon said is unreasonable or trying to mask some deficiency. If you look at the how plenty of Western knives are sold, you pretty much don't know about anything regarding specs of the knife: weight, grind, hardness, steel, thickness, taper, finish. Maybe you get a "high carbon stainless" or "cryo-"something or "forged and triple riveted" which is for the marketing. Certainly much less than what knife vendors Jon and others will describe or are willing to share when asked. 
What we do here on the forums is indeed talk about the knives which often goes beyond the fetishizing of a specific steel name and into what the maker does with it, heat treatment, roughly what hardness it gets taken to, the grinds, the finish and aesthetic, whether it's a laser or workhorse or whatever have you... All these things that are factors of skill and craftsmanship
I have a low budget knife that is supposedly white #1 core steel but acts not particularly fine grained at all. I am kind of suspicious it was in some way made overly brittle (even post factory edge). In that way how does it help me knowing the name of the steel? In either case I'm left with the same impression of what I have to deal with.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 8, 2016)

johndavid said:


> I think this is a nice way of saying that knife craftsmanship, in general, peeked long ago - and what is left is little innovation but instead we are stuck with obscurity and prioritization to protect a "secret" sauce.
> 
> Instead, let a hand full of craftsmen use the exact same raw materials so that the consumer can appreciate the value that the craftsman adds via his knowledge and skill of working with such materials ... and not about the widely available not so secret materials used to create the product.
> 
> We call them knife craftsmen, not knife proprietors whom hold trade secrets and patents.



Sorry, but you're as wrong as a person can be. The decision to share this information is totally up to the craftsman. Of course, you are welcome to vote with your wallet, but you'll be excluding some of the best knives available.

Rick


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## daveb (Sep 8, 2016)

Thanks Foodie and Rick. JD you would be hard pressed to be more wrong in my opinion.

Most consumer products on the market are made with proprietary materials and processes. Buyers would not expect to know how their car is made, how their TV is made or even how their kitchenware is made. Some consumers may develop a brand loyalty based on positive experiences, some buy for whiz bang features and some will buy on price. Don't know that anyone buys a car because the maker uses xyz steel in the rear axle.

For a maker to disclose proprietary information would be foolhardy. To conclude that because that information is not disclosed, that all makers are using the same materials and processes is equally so.

Hugs.


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## JBroida (Sep 8, 2016)

johndavid said:


> I think this is a nice way of saying that knife craftsmanship, in general, peeked long ago - and what is left is little innovation but instead we are stuck with obscurity and prioritization to protect a "secret" sauce.
> 
> Instead, let a hand full of craftsmen use the exact same raw materials so that the consumer can appreciate the value that the craftsman adds via his knowledge and skill of working with such materials ... and not about the widely available not so secret materials used to create the product.
> 
> We call them knife craftsmen, not knife proprietors whom hold trade secrets and patents.



not really... its a nice way of saying exactly what i said without any need to read in-between the lines or look for meaning that wasnt there


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## johndavid (Sep 8, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Sorry, but you're as wrong as a person can be. The decision to share this information is totally up to the craftsman.
> 
> Rick



I dont think I said otherwise. 

Lets put it this way, if the maker used Tamahagane then you would know what type of steel the knife is made up of. It would then be a selling point and not something they wanted to keep secret. 

Sure, it takes a good blacksmith to work with high quality steels and obtain desirable results ... but we cant discount the inherit natures of the steel itself and what properties it has intrinsically. This information is important to consumers. 

@daveb - absolutely, consumer loyalty due to a track record of quality products plays a role. But to allude that consumers don't care about the intricacies of the products they buy is a misstatement if you ask me. Heck, just read these forums - we seem to care about the details with regards to knives. 

We've spent a lot of time preaching that steel type and the blacksmith themselves are important when choosing a knife. Inferior steel leads to an inferior knife. White steel is different from blue steel, etc. To abdicate from this now seems like a mistake for the sake of siding with a good knife maker. BTW - no one is saying dont buy, im saying if they are that good a little transparency wouldnt hurt. If the craftsman is that good then others with the same materials couldnt replicate the same results. 

I wont call names but for those who claimed that being transparent with the steel type results in lost revenues due to others being able to easily replicate the qualities of said knife ... you made my earlier point. We arent talking about innovation (neither in the steel nor craftsmanship), merely obscurity. 

And no, im not saying that a maker doesn't have the right to protect his products, or the secret metal he uses ... by all means have it legally protected so that you can tell consumers what you are selling without fear of competition. ; )


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Sep 8, 2016)

One maker might be very open about his steel, another not, so - vote with your money for however you like it.


...


Always amazed how the japanese seem to make something fine out of D2 variants, given the reputation of D2 (you read "takes a lousy edge and keeps it forever" often)....


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 8, 2016)

johndavid said:


> I dont think I said otherwise.



Your post implied as much.


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