# Who makes the best honyaki?



## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

I've been trying to educate myself about honyakis and I was hoping you guys could help. I'm more interested in learning about honyaki gyutos than yanagibas, but I welcome anything you guys wanna share. From what I've been seeing, Ashi Hamono honyakis seem to command the highest price point (at around 4k?) - is that because of sheer quality/performance or some other factor? Who are the other makers that come close in value/quality? How much of a difference does having a hamon make on the knife (asking because I've seen some honyakis with distinct hamons and others that seem to lack one completely)? What are the best steels used in honyakis?


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## F-Flash (Dec 11, 2019)

Do you wanna know about Japanese makers only or also about western ones? There's more western makers making honyakis these days than Japanes.


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

F-Flash said:


> Do you wanna know about Japanese makers only or also about western ones? There's more western makers making honyakis these days than Japanes.



I don't mine learning about both, thanks!


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## Eloh (Dec 11, 2019)

just as a short answer for a part of the question: A knife having a hamon has nothing to do with its performance. That doesnt mean that knife maker x wont take special care for their honyaki knives. But thats more correlation than causation 

Who makes the best? No idea, i like my Xerxes and my Evan


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## M1k3 (Dec 11, 2019)

Kippington. Dalman.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 11, 2019)

Comet


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

Thanks for the responses. Are Western makers really better than Japanese ones? How can I tell?


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## captaincaed (Dec 11, 2019)

Gotta take the plunge, only way to find out. Keep in mind "bad honyaki" is like saying "bad pizza.". You can get burned, but it's still pizza.

A honyaki takes some skill to make. As long as it's not cracked, it should represent the abilities of a strong craftsman. 

Notice Chelsea Miller hasn't made any. Zing!


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## DitmasPork (Dec 11, 2019)

sleepy said:


> I've been trying to educate myself about honyakis and I was hoping you guys could help. I'm more interested in learning about honyaki gyutos than yanagibas, but I welcome anything you guys wanna share. From what I've been seeing, Ashi Hamono honyakis seem to command the highest price point (at around 4k?) - is that because of sheer quality/performance or some other factor? Who are the other makers that come close in value/quality? How much of a difference does having a hamon make on the knife (asking because I've seen some honyakis with distinct hamons and others that seem to lack one completely)? What are the best steels used in honyakis?



"Best" is subjective, for me the Comet honyaki I tried has become my unicorn.


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## Midsummer (Dec 11, 2019)

Cost is likely related to higher than normal failure rates, more complicated process, and longer finishing procedures. Also apprentice smiths are not usually involved.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 11, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Notice Chelsea Miller hasn't made any. Zing!


She's too busy filling those cheese grater orders for the hipsters


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## Barmoley (Dec 11, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Thanks for the responses. Are Western makers really better than Japanese ones? How can I tell?



Better in what way? Bad honyaki is bad, it being honyaki doesn't make it a good knife in any shape or form. It doesn't have to be cracked to be bad, it can be bad for any number of reasons.

Honyaki or not is so down the list of what makes a good knife that it only matters to some when everything else is good. Profile, grind, balance are a lot more important. When these are to your preference, then you can start thinking, steel, honyaki or not, etc. So pick a style you like then the rest. There are a lot of great makers these days and many of them make excellent honyaki. Western makers are often easier to work with and allow for more personal preferences, but you better really know what you actually want if you start customizing parameters, as often times what we think would work well doesn't in reality.


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

Midsummer said:


> Cost is likely related to higher than normal failure rates, more complicated process, and longer finishing procedures. Also apprentice smiths are not usually involved.



How much of a difference does the steel type make in cost? How are Ashi Hamono honyakis $4k while a lot of western honyakis are <$1k?


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## Caleb Cox (Dec 11, 2019)

The cost of steel is going to be a relatively small part of the cost, as typically exotic steels aren't used. You're paying for hours of labor and cracked blades.


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## F-Flash (Dec 11, 2019)

That 4k Ashi price is supply and demand issue. Jon had one some time ago and price was 1500usd? If I remember right.


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Better in what way? Bad honyaki is bad, it being honyaki doesn't make it a good knife in any shape or form. It doesn't have to be cracked to be bad, it can be bad for any number of reasons.
> 
> Honyaki or not is so down the list of what makes a good knife that it only matters to some when everything else is good. Profile, grind, balance are a lot more important. When these are to your preference, then you can start thinking, steel, honyaki or not, etc. So pick a style you like then the rest. There are a lot of great makers these days and many of them make excellent honyaki. Western makers are often easier to work with and allow for more personal preferences, but you better really know what you actually want if you start customizing parameters, as often times what we think would work well doesn't in reality.



Sorry for being so vague. That's good advice, thank you. I'm just so new to the hobby that I haven't really established any preferences yet. I'm just trying to figure where a good starting point would be and educate myself a little along the way.


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

Caleb Cox said:


> The cost of steel is going to be a relatively small part of the cost, as typically exotic steels aren't used. You're paying for hours of labor and cracked blades.



Oh I see, thanks for clearing that up!


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## Midsummer (Dec 11, 2019)

Ashi = rare a collectors item


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

F-Flash said:


> That 4k Ashi price is supply and demand issue. Jon had one some time ago and price was 1500usd? If I remember right.



That's interesting that the demand is that high, I wonder how much higher it'll go if the maker's really not producing them anymore.


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## DitmasPork (Dec 11, 2019)

Midsummer said:


> Ashi = rare a collectors item



Does price define a 'collectors item' to you? The Ashi honyaki I recently tried belonged to a pro cook, who uses all his knives. Current price for Ashi honyakis are fair IMO, considering the availability.


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## Gjackson98 (Dec 11, 2019)

I think this question is almost like who makes the best car. It's all personal preference. 
Regarding Gyuto honyaki, I have owned and used Togashi, shiraki, Y.Ikeda, Munetoshi, Toyama, Kippington and The9. They are all good stuff. 
Personally Y. Ikeda's steel & HT and Kippington laser profile really stand out for me. Not saying the other's are not as good, but just what catched me at the moment. 
Regarding where to start, almost all honyaki that I have owned(besides kippington Laser) are too thick when they came in and required some level of thinning.
If you are beginner I would suggest going with something cheaper.


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## Gjackson98 (Dec 11, 2019)

Personally I will also add that same maker dose not mean same quality. 
If we are talking about Japanese makers there are few more variable that we should consider. 
Besides who is the maker, also ask who is the sharpener and never the less who is the carrier. 

I have ordered custom knife before as an individual, the Fit and finish is just no match compare to the ones from a big retailer in the showroom.
Not saying the maker will halfuss your order, but understand the business impact of 1 knife vs. 1000 from a big whole seller. 
Some brands/carrier will pay extra for the maker/sharpener to pay closer attention on things like fit and finish.


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## Barmoley (Dec 11, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Sorry for being so vague. That's good advice, thank you. I'm just so new to the hobby that I haven't really established any preferences yet. I'm just trying to figure where a good starting point would be and educate myself a little along the way.


That's perfectly fine, we are all here to learn, maybe not all but a large enough portion...that said, being new to the hobby I would not go for a honyaki of any type. You will pay a premium for it being a honyaki and will not realize or appreciate real or perceived benefits. Even if money is no object it would still not be advisable to get a honyaki as a user. Now, if you want one because they look cool and as a show piece, by all means get what looks good to you. If you just want a good knife, fill out the questioner and members here will suggest something good. Just to make it clear not saying you shouldn't buy a honyaki if that is what you want, but it would not be my choice as being new to the hobby.


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## captaincaed (Dec 11, 2019)

Are you new to kitchen knives as a hobby or just honyaki in particular?


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## Paraffin (Dec 11, 2019)

One way to find out if you'd like a honyaki knife from a particular maker is to buy one of their "lesser" knives, if available. That will give you at least some idea if you'd like the profile, the grind, and the general fit and finish. 

I have several Yoshikazu Ikeda knives in his suminagashi clad series that are expensive, but not as much as his water-quenched and oil-quenched honyaki knives. I know from these knives that I'd probably like the grind and finish of his honyaki knives, if I ever want to spend that much and have the funds available. I've spent a couple of years testing the waters up to the $500 level, but I'm not quite ready to go over $1,000 for a kitchen knife yet.


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## captaincaed (Dec 11, 2019)

Paraffin said:


> One way to find out if you'd like a honyaki knife from a particular maker is to buy one of their "lesser" knives, if available. That will give you at least some idea if you'd like the profile, the grind, and the general fit and finish.
> 
> I have several Yoshikazu Ikeda knives in his suminagashi clad series that are expensive, but not as much as his water-quenched and oil-quenched honyaki knives. I know from these knives that I'd probably like the grind and finish of his honyaki knives, if I ever want to spend that much and have the funds available. I've spent a couple of years testing the waters up to the $500 level, but I'm not quite ready to go over $1,000 for a kitchen knife yet.


Tried the blue sumi? I'm very close to the trigger on that one


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## Midsummer (Dec 11, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Does price define a 'collectors item' to you? The Ashi honyaki I recently tried belonged to a pro cook, who uses all his knives. Current price for Ashi honyakis are fair IMO, considering the availability.



Some may use their Ashi’s. Even fewer will use them in a professional environment. Even fewer as a beater. Most buy them and admire them/trade them. 

A Ferrari Daytona may be a beater to some. For most it is a collectors item. That does not mean they don’t drive them.

I would say the current level of availability of the Ashi is “rare”. I choose that term for efficiency and to project a generalization. There are always exceptions. That does not change the rule.

At this time most who are waiting and watching with baited breath to pick up their first or second Ashi already own many excellent knives. They can more than satisfactorily handle their kitchen tasks with what they have on hand.

Some may argue that the performance of an Ashi justifies its cost. I say live and let live. If they want to buy one and work at a local establishment. Good for them.

Whether a price is “fair” or not; it seems that is for the market to decide.

Congrats on having gotten to handle an Ashi. I would love to examine one and better I would love to see how it cuts.

All this gets back to the OP’s original question. Knives are like cars and jewels and houses and all sorts of things. There are nuances that prevent direct comparison and make his question virtually unanswerable.

That said, I am going to say Mizuno out of Japan and Xerxes from the west.


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## Barmoley (Dec 11, 2019)

Paraffin said:


> One way to find out if you'd like a honyaki knife from a particular maker is to buy one of their "lesser" knives, if available. That will give you at least some idea if you'd like the profile, the grind, and the general fit and finish.
> 
> I have several Yoshikazu Ikeda knives in his suminagashi clad series that are expensive, but not as much as his water-quenched and oil-quenched honyaki knives. I know from these knives that I'd probably like the grind and finish of his honyaki knives, if I ever want to spend that much and have the funds available. I've spent a couple of years testing the waters up to the $500 level, but I'm not quite ready to go over $1,000 for a kitchen knife yet.


This is good advice except that at least out of Japan the honyaki grinds are often different from the grinds of same maker's san mai knives. With western makers you can get more similarity, regardless of construction.


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## jaeysehn (Dec 11, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> "Best" is subjective, for me the Comet honyaki I tried has become my unicorn.



I love it too


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## DitmasPork (Dec 11, 2019)

Midsummer said:


> Some may use their Ashi’s. Even fewer will use them in a professional environment. Even fewer as a beater. Most buy them and admire them/trade them.
> 
> A Ferrari Daytona may be a beater to some. For most it is a collectors item. That does not mean they don’t drive them.
> 
> ...



I was delighted to be able to handle both a Comet and Ashi. A honyaki is certainly on my wish-list, but these days it's a stretch for me to even consider getting a a knife in the above-$500 range. For my budget, the Kippington honyaki is a great value option—will probably go that route should I get another Kip, or push my budget when Comets become available.

In my kitchen, I certainly don't need a honyaki, my knives are perfectly fine—but do want one eventually.


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## DitmasPork (Dec 11, 2019)

jaeysehn said:


> I love it too
> 
> View attachment 66521
> View attachment 66522
> ...


My unicorn.


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Are you new to kitchen knives as a hobby or just honyaki in particular?



Thanks all for the replies! I'm new to kitchen knives in general, but I was hoping to learn about honyakis so that if a really great deal or something comes along I can hold onto it and save it for when I am able to appreciate it. I also don't want to waste money by buying something subpar because I don't understand what I'm buying (almost made the mistake of buying a Miyabi birchwood gyuto a few months ago, thinking it was the best thing ever). I think I'd definitely hold off on actually using a honyaki right now even if I had one, just because I'd be afraid of ruining it somehow, but I wouldn't mind buying one and I absolutely appreciate it for the work that went into it.


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## Midsummer (Dec 11, 2019)

Trying a bunch of knives so that you know what suits you. 

Check out BST and buy from someone who has sold a few already. 

Some guys just like to try them and let them go. They pay a small premium to do so; but it suits their style.


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## captaincaed (Dec 11, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Thanks all for the replies! I'm new to kitchen knives in general, but I was hoping to learn about honyakis so that if a really great deal or something comes along I can hold onto it and save it for when I am able to appreciate it. I also don't want to waste money by buying something subpar because I don't understand what I'm buying (almost made the mistake of buying a Miyabi birchwood gyuto a few months ago, thinking it was the best thing ever). I think I'd definitely hold off on actually using a honyaki right now even if I had one, just because I'd be afraid of ruining it somehow, but I wouldn't mind buying one and I absolutely appreciate it for the work that went into it.


I agree it helps to know your tastes. Knowing if you have any tolerance for thinning/refinishing/polishing is a good idea too. Every knife will need to be thinned eventually, and now you've opened a whole can of worms with a mirror-polished blade (with very hard steel). Thinning an iron-clad knife is time-consuming enough. Polishing honyaki requires power tools or saintly patience.

A good tack could be to take a year to try different profiles and grinds, find a winner, then hunt honyaki with that style. In my mind, picking up a honyaki is a decision after you find your style. It becomes iconic of your style. I have a couple that are probably wrong for me. But then some people have couple handful of honyaki, so what the hell do I know.


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I agree it helps to know your tastes. Knowing if you have any tolerance for thinning/refinishing/polishing is a good idea too. Every knife will need to be thinned eventually, and now you've opened a whole can of worms with a mirror-polished blade (with very hard steel). Thinning an iron-clad knife is time-consuming enough. Polishing honyaki requires power tools or saintly patience.
> 
> A good tack could be to take a year to try different profiles and grinds, find a winner, then hunt honyaki with that style. In my mind, picking up a honyaki is a decision after you find your style. It becomes iconic of your style. I have a couple that are probably wrong for me. But then some people have couple handful of honyaki, so what the hell do I know.



That's a great way to look at it, thanks. Never considered having a honyaki be a representation of my preferences. I guess I just wanted to dip my toes into honyaki, but I really wanted to avoid making a mistake.


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## captaincaed (Dec 11, 2019)

sleepy said:


> That's a great way to look at it, thanks. Never considered having a honyaki be a representation of my preferences. I guess I just wanted to dip my toes into honyaki, but I really wanted to avoid making a mistake.


No worries mate. At the end of the day, it's a hobby. Get something that makes you happy. The nice thing is, if it ain't perfect, there are buyers here. You'll lose a little money, but you paid for an experience, and tuition to the school of knives. And keep an eye on several forums to get a sense of prices. I've been taken for a couple rides on prices.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 11, 2019)

For what it is worth Koki at JCK has Mizuno Honyaki 240mm gyuto on sale at 906.00 with a D Ho handle. Extra 90.00 gets a octagon Ebony Handle. So still under 1K.

Couple pro cooks here have high praise for that blade. I had Koki send me some choil shots beautiful grind thicker up top and very thin behind the edge.


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> No worries mate. At the end of the day, it's a hobby. Get something that makes you happy. The nice thing is, if it ain't perfect, there are buyers here. You'll lose a little money, but you paid for an experience, and tuition to the school of knives. And keep an eye on several forums to get a sense of prices. I've been taken for a couple rides on prices.



Oh what other kitchen knife forums are good to look at? I didn't really know there were any other major ones.


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## F-Flash (Dec 11, 2019)

https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/index.php
************** just to test if that idiotic word block is still in here. Maybe you guys should grow up and take it off allready? 

Then there's this German knife forum you can read with Google translate.
http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

F-Flash said:


> https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/index.php
> ************** just to test if that idiotic word block is still in here. Maybe you guys should grow up and take it off allready?
> 
> Then there's this German knife forum you can read with Google translate.
> http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/



Thank you!


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## Chuckles (Dec 11, 2019)

I like the idea of this being a major forum. 

I can’t imagine the other forums as active as this one. Especially for honyaki. 

It is very helpful to know what kind of grind/profile you like before you go honyaki.


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## bkultra (Dec 11, 2019)

There can be only one (well two that I know of)

Profile 
Grind 
Smith


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## Chicagohawkie (Dec 11, 2019)

bkultra said:


> There can be only one (well two that I know of)
> 
> Profile
> Grind
> ...


The one knife to rule them all!


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## panda (Dec 11, 2019)

mizuno. end of story.


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## panda (Dec 11, 2019)

bkultra said:


> There can be only one (well two that I know of)
> 
> Profile
> Grind
> ...


i hate you


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 11, 2019)

bkultra said:


> There can be only one (well two that I know of)
> 
> Profile
> Grind
> ...


Too pointy for me. I prefer the traditional Mizuno bullnose.


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## jacko9 (Dec 11, 2019)

A short while back I asked a similar question and here is one Maker/Sharpener that was recommended;

https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/hitohira/products/aaa-027b1-57-fa240?variant=29370310230069

I think one of these is still available at Tosho Knife Arts


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## bkultra (Dec 11, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Too pointy for me. I prefer the tradional Mizuno bullnose.



Go buy a santoku


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 11, 2019)

bkultra said:


> Go buy a santoku


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## bkultra (Dec 11, 2019)

On a serious note, Mizuno would be my choice for a more readily available honyaki. But this is all just preference and there is no answer that is anything other than opinion.


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

bkultra said:


> There can be only one (well two that I know of)
> 
> Profile
> Grind
> ...



May I ask what this is?


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

bkultra said:


> On a serious note, Mizuno would be my choice for a more readily available honyaki. But this is all just preference and there is no answer that is anything other than opinion.



Thanks for your recommendation! I'm curious, does your answer change if availability isn't a factor?


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## panda (Dec 11, 2019)

sleepy said:


> May I ask what this is?


honyaki version of masamoto ks, it's the "HS" line

but he had custom saya and handle made by marko tsourkan


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## lemeneid (Dec 11, 2019)

Two words,

Toyanabe Honyaki


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## ian (Dec 11, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Two words,
> 
> Toyanabe Honyaki



Toyanabe Monoyaki?

Watayama Honmai?


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## sleepy (Dec 11, 2019)

jacko9 said:


> A short while back I asked a similar question and here is one Maker/Sharpener that was recommended;
> 
> https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/hitohira/products/aaa-027b1-57-fa240?variant=29370310230069
> 
> I think one of these is still available at Tosho Knife Arts



Wow, that's a pretty hefty price tag - I'm surprised this is the first mention of this maker in the thread. Actually, this is the first time I've heard of this maker at all.


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## Eloh (Dec 12, 2019)

Gjackson98 said:


> Regarding where to start, almost all honyaki that I have owned(besides kippington Laser) are too thick when they came in and required some level of thinning.





sleepy said:


> think I'd definitely hold off on actually using a honyaki right now even if I had one



I mean again, you can buy anything for whatever reason, but think about it.
If we believe gjackson here you have a good chance if you buy a honyaki that it's too thick wich you wouldnt be able to fix and if you fix it all the money you spent for the polishing of the blade is gone too. And then you wouldn't even use it anyway.

You could also buy lets say a herder k chef for $250 wich is usually thin behind the edge, has a mono carbon steel blade too, wich looks kinda ugly, has no marketing mystique around it but might actually be a better tool out of the box (for you) and you could actually use it lol

Just to put it in a bit of perspective.
At the end _you_ need to know what you want or need.


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## lemeneid (Dec 12, 2019)

panda said:


> mizuno. end of story.


I'd get a Mizuno, but they're not lefty friendly unfortunately.


panda said:


> honyaki version of masamoto ks, it's the "HS" line
> 
> but he had custom saya and handle made by marko tsourkan


Just to add on also, knife was made by Ashi, so this makes it more unicorn than all the Ginga honyakis out there.


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## jacko9 (Dec 12, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Wow, that's a pretty hefty price tag - I'm surprised this is the first mention of this maker in the thread. Actually, this is the first time I've heard of this maker at all.



I been to his site and emailed him and he is out of stock and too bust to take orders. I would be interested to see if anybody else has heard of him and what they think about this knife.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> I'd get a Mizuno, but they're not lefty friendly unfortunately.
> .


The Honyaki are 50:50 grind according to Koki.


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## Barmoley (Dec 12, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> The Honyaki are 50:50 grind according to Koki.


That is absolutely not true for the one I have. Mine is a blue 2 version and it is definitely rightly biased, really good though but not for wrongly handed people.


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## captaincaed (Dec 12, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> That is absolutely not true for the one I have. Mine is a blue 2 version and it is definitely rightly biased, really good though but not for wrongly handed people.


Food release on a scale of 1-glestain?


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 12, 2019)

Thats a pretty big oversight by JCK. Can't give the wronghanded hope like that.


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## Oui Chef (Dec 12, 2019)

panda said:


> honyaki version of masamoto ks, it's the "HS" line
> 
> but he had custom saya and handle made by marko tsourkan


explains why that saya is so goddamn delicious.


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## Oui Chef (Dec 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Two words,
> 
> Toyanabe Honyaki


i love that you're keeping this meme alive
chuckle everytime i see it


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## Gregmega (Dec 12, 2019)

Kinda surprised not to see anyone mention Evan yet- I have a very fine honyaki by him that was well under 1k- a great value for the knife imo. Killer performer too, and much thinner than I’ve seen ootb from a lot of Japanese honyaki... that is except for my ashi of corse[emoji12].


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## Barmoley (Dec 12, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Food release on a scale of 1-glestain?



It is definitely good, but how good I don't yet know, need to test more. My standard is @Kippington workpony honyaki that has amazing food release. I am not sure what is wrong with that knife there are two possibilities, ether it has some special Australian nanocoating that has matter repealing properties or kipp dosed the handle in some sort of hallucinogen that makes me think it has great food release.



Corradobrit1 said:


> Thats a pretty big oversight by JCK. Can't give the wronghanded hope like that.



I think when he says 50/50 he means the edge was sharpened 50/50 but the grind can be anything.


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## labor of love (Dec 12, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Thats a pretty big oversight by JCK. Can't give the wronghanded hope like that.


The wrong handed have given up. We’re now quite hopeless.


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## lemeneid (Dec 12, 2019)

Oui Chef said:


> i love that you're keeping this meme alive
> chuckle everytime i see it


What can I say, I love mine 
Toyama that is


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## IsoJ (Dec 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> What can I say, I love mine
> Toyama that is


Toyama honyaki is my "unicorn".


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## lemeneid (Dec 12, 2019)

IsoJ said:


> Toyama honyaki is my "unicorn".


Mine is unicorn-er. It was polished by the polishing god Lee


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## IsoJ (Dec 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Mine is unicorn-er. It was polished by the polishing god Lee
> View attachment 66643
> View attachment 66644
> View attachment 66645



Huh..Thanks for putting up the photos . That is a real piece of functional art.


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## Chuckles (Dec 12, 2019)

I would take Mizuno over Toyanabe. 
Don’t forget Mario if you can find one.


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## sleepy (Dec 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Mine is unicorn-er. It was polished by the polishing god Lee
> View attachment 66643
> View attachment 66644
> View attachment 66645



So I was reading up a little on Toyama after seeing your gorgeous honyaki, and it made me realize no one's mentioned Watanabe yet. Is he not as popular anymore? Is Toyama still making knives? I assumed he would be selling on Watanabe's site, but I don't seem to see anything made by him.


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## lemeneid (Dec 12, 2019)

sleepy said:


> So I was reading up a little on Toyama after seeing your gorgeous honyaki, and it made me realize no one's mentioned Watanabe yet. Is he not as popular anymore? Is Toyama still making knives? I assumed he would be selling on Watanabe's site, but I don't seem to see anything made by him.


You will only find Toyama on JNS and Watanabe only on his own commercial site as well as a few vendors.

To my knowledge both have stopped making honyakis. So Toyama, Watanabe, Toyanabe, Watayama, whatever, it doesn’t matter anymore now.


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## sleepy (Dec 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> You will only find Toyama on JNS and Watanabe only on his own commercial site as well as a few vendors.
> 
> To my knowledge both have stopped making honyakis. So Toyama, Watanabe, Toyanabe, Watayama, whatever, it doesn’t matter anymore now.



Ohh I see, thanks for the info. Assuming a Watanabe or Toyama honyaki pops up secondhand on BST or something though, how are their honyakis generally regarded?


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## lemeneid (Dec 12, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Ohh I see, thanks for the info. Assuming a Watanabe or Toyama honyaki pops up secondhand on BST or something though, how are their honyakis generally regarded?


If you've used a regular Toyanabe before, you'll know its highly regarded by most people. I can't speak enough for it, I love mine and will never give it up.


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## tgfencer (Dec 12, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Ohh I see, thanks for the info. Assuming a Watanabe or Toyama honyaki pops up secondhand on BST or something though, how are their honyakis generally regarded?



I would add that while Watanabe has apparently stopped making honyaki for custom orders, he does occasionally seem to produce a one or two for sale in the Special section of his website. Mind you, they have a hefty price tag.


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## F-Flash (Dec 12, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> I would add that while Watanabe has apparently stopped making honyaki for custom orders, he does occasionally seem to produce a one or two for sale in the Special section of his website. Mind you, they have a hefty price tag.



Toyama does the same thing, and both started doing stainless clad at the same time.


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## sleepy (Dec 12, 2019)

F-Flash said:


> Toyama does the same thing, and both started doing stainless clad at the same time.



So basically keep a close watch on JNS and hope for a Toyama honyaki to appear? Especially since it seems like the window of opportunity to get one is dwindling as Toyama ages, while Watanabe is still pretty young.


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## jacko9 (Dec 12, 2019)

sleepy said:


> So basically keep a close watch on JNS and hope for a Toyama honyaki to appear? Especially since it seems like the window of opportunity to get one is dwindling as Toyama ages, while Watanabe is still pretty young.



Shinichi at Watanabe is making me a 180mm Pro Nariki (my second this one is for my granddaughter) and I'll ask him about getting a Honyaki when he emails me about the shipping date. Has anybody had any experience with his Honyaki knives?


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## ashy2classy (Dec 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> If you've used a regular Toyanabe before, you'll know its highly regarded by most people. I can't speak enough for it, I love mine and will never give it up.


Toyanabe LOL!


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## inferno (Dec 12, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Thanks for the responses. Are Western makers really better than Japanese ones? How can I tell?



you can tell from the price. the more expensive the better.


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## Barmoley (Dec 12, 2019)




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## inferno (Dec 12, 2019)




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## sleepy (Dec 12, 2019)

inferno said:


> you can tell from the price. the more expensive the better.



Lmaooo


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## Chuckles (Dec 12, 2019)

I had a Watanabe Honyaki. It was a really nice knife. Mirror polish hid the hamon which was boxy and pretty basic, not the super sexy highly contrasted style you often see. Really nice profile and grind. Great cutter.

You can see a couple pics here:

Chuckles Knives


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## sleepy (Dec 12, 2019)

Chuckles said:


> I had a Watanabe Honyaki. It was a really nice knife. Mirror polish hid the hamon which was boxy and pretty basic, not the super sexy highly contrasted style you often see. Really nice profile and grind. Great cutter.
> 
> You can see a couple pics here:
> 
> Chuckles Knives



Absolutely beautiful. Did you get rid of it? If so, why, if you don't mind me asking?


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## lemeneid (Dec 12, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Absolutely beautiful. Did you get rid of it? If so, why, if you don't mind me asking?


There's another couple of nice ones by brooksie
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/ashi-honyaki-and-watanabe-honyaki-polishes.35347/
Wonder where that Wat is now though


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## Chuckles (Dec 12, 2019)

I did move it along. If I remember I bought it to combine shipping along with a Rader I bought from the same forum member in Australia. It was a binge buying period followed by slow weening. Pretty typical pattern for me.


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## sleepy (Dec 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> There's another couple of nice ones by brooksie
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/ashi-honyaki-and-watanabe-honyaki-polishes.35347/
> Wonder where that Wat is now though



That really is nice. I'm assuming they didn't come like that, but any guesses as to what kind of equipment or time you would need to polish a honyaki to look like that?


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## lemeneid (Dec 12, 2019)

Lots of literal blood, sweat and tears, as well as sandpaper, diamond paste, finger stones and etchant.


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## panda (Dec 12, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Thanks for the responses. Are Western makers really better than Japanese ones? How can I tell?


i'm done with westerns, got that phase out of my system. sticking to strictly japanese.


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## labor of love (Dec 12, 2019)

panda said:


> i'm done with westerns, got that phase out of my system. sticking to strictly japanese.


Shihan for you then.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 12, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Shihan for you then.


Or Carter. Hybrids


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## sleepy (Dec 12, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Lots of literal blood, sweat and tears, as well as sandpaper, diamond paste, finger stones and etchant.



Sounds like a relaxing pastime, actually. Can you point me to a place where I can get those things if I end up needing to?


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## sleepy (Dec 12, 2019)

panda said:


> i'm done with westerns, got that phase out of my system. sticking to strictly japanese.



I also think I lean more towards the Japanese knives, to be honest, though maybe I just haven't gotten to my western phase yet. I will admit I was reaaalllly tempted to bid on Maumasi's most recent instagram auction but I figure it's probably too much knife for me right now, and maybe he'll make something even cooler later on, when I'm actually ready.


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## Itsjun (Dec 12, 2019)

There's also Hiromoto


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## LucasFur (Dec 12, 2019)

I'm going to say. You get use to what you use. Like learning any tool, it's feel. 
It's like saying what's the best putter?

I've used my Togashi Honyaki the most. Owned 3 and buying another soon. Togashi is the only maker I've used extensively/ sharpened/polished. 
I own 3 shiraki Honyaki, A mizuno. A ashi. All great knives. All have their own merits. 

For the most part I will say Honyaki are display pieces. Ok better edge, ok different feel, ok more dence cutting. Can still get 90% there with a regular clad knife.

**my experience is only gyuto's**


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## panda (Dec 12, 2019)

LucasFur said:


> I'm going to say. You get use to what you use. Like learning any tool, it's feel.
> It's like saying what's the best putter?
> 
> I've used my Togashi Honyaki the most. Owned 3 and buying another soon. Togashi is the only maker I've used extensively/ sharpened/polished.
> ...


i use my hiromoto honyaki as a beater, it's tough as nails.


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## Oui Chef (Dec 13, 2019)

Chuckles said:


> I had a Watanabe Honyaki. It was a really nice knife. Mirror polish hid the hamon which was boxy and pretty basic, not the super sexy highly contrasted style you often see. Really nice profile and grind. Great cutter.
> 
> You can see a couple pics here:
> 
> Chuckles Knives


The mario below it is really beautiful too. Wish I had one


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## Anton (Dec 13, 2019)

State of mind ...
So subjective
Why ask about a type of knife when the profile, grind and weight are so much more personal - as others have said its about feel. If you can’t sharpen honyaki steel and feel that difference don’t bother much comparing


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## Barmoley (Dec 13, 2019)

Western, Japanese what’s the difference? A good knife is a good knife regardless of what part of the world it was made in. To figure out what you like you need to try a bunch and just when you think you know, your preferences will change as your technique will improve your sharpening skill will improve and different attributes will become more or less important. Doing research is great and important, but like with anything else at some point you need to jump in and try it for yourself. You don’t learn how to drive by reading about it, you learn the rules and principals, but at some point you need to get behind the wheel. You also don’t start with a Ferrari as you first car, not saying honyaki is, still not convinced of the benefits people claim, but price wise there is a parallel.


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## Eloh (Dec 13, 2019)

The best thing about Honyaki knives to me is that they dont have reactive, soft iron cladding. It would be awesome if some talented Japanese grinders/sharpeners would work on Monosteel knives without a Hamon and all the extra polishing nonsense that drives the price up.


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## Michi (Dec 13, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> In my kitchen, I certainly don't need a honyaki, my knives are perfectly fine—but do want one eventually.


I've been pondering getting a nice honyaki for quite some time. What keeps stopping me are two things:

After a few months of use, a fancy and highly-polished honyaki is going to look like crap, unless I spend an insane amount of effort maintaining it.
The food I cook will taste exactly the same, whether I've cut it with a very sharp honyaki or a very sharp Victorinox.
To me, knives are not about knives; instead, they are about food. The point of a good knife is to make food preparation more joyful and effortless. A good tool makes short work of a job, whether that's the right spanner for fixing a car, or the right knife for filleting a fish.

I do appreciate a knife that looks good, and I'm willing to pay extra for that. I also appreciate the artistry and the beauty of something hand-made by a skilled craftsman. But, in the end, the thing that matters most to me is "how well does it cut?" I really don't care whether that costs me $50 or $500.


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## captaincaed (Dec 13, 2019)

Eloh said:


> The best thing about Honyaki knives to me is that they dont have reactive, soft iron cladding. It would be awesome if some talented Japanese grinders/sharpeners would work on Monosteel knives without a Hamon and all the extra polishing nonsense that drives the price up.


Exactly. Iron cladding isn't always great with western ingredients. Smells and rust are my challenges. But thinning mono and honyaki requires...patience


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## captaincaed (Dec 13, 2019)

LucasFur said:


> I'm going to say. You get use to what you use. Like learning any tool, it's feel.
> It's like saying what's the best putter?
> 
> I've used my Togashi Honyaki the most. Owned 3 and buying another soon. Togashi is the only maker I've used extensively/ sharpened/polished.
> ...


Do you share @panda love for the Mizuno? Thinking of potatoes in particular. Still chasing a knife that will do that one task really well.


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## bkultra (Dec 13, 2019)

For potatoes its hard to beat Heiji. Assuming wedging, striction, and food release are your main focus.

Yes I know it's not going to be a honyaki, but horses for courses.

Edit: see below (now back on topic)

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/food-release-videos.13910/


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## captaincaed (Dec 13, 2019)

bkultra said:


> For potatoes its hard to beat Heiji. Assuming wedging, striction, and food release are your main focus.
> 
> Yes I know it's not going to be a honyaki, but horses for courses.


Exactly so. I've heard the Mizuno honyaki grind can be good for potatoes, but I'm not concerned with it being a honyaki, per se. Thank you for the rec, I hear heiji is good


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 13, 2019)

You want a knife without stiction on potato's get a Blue Moon Nashiji blue#2 from JCK. He has the 210mm for around 100.00. I asked him to bring in 240mm in that blade. Blueway Japan on EBay has a few of exact same blade but costs more.

Have a couple Japanese swords with nice hamon. Take them out several times a year to polish & oil. As mentioned if using a Honyaki knife it will patina over time cutting all kinds of food. Unless you clean it with every use. Honyaki at work I let it patina.


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## Matus (Dec 13, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> You will only find Toyama on JNS and Watanabe only on his own commercial site as well as a few vendors.



Not quite true. Toyama knives can also be bought in some shops in Japan.


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## khashy (Dec 13, 2019)

bkultra said:


> There can be only one (well two that I know of)
> 
> Profile [emoji818]️
> Grind [emoji818]️
> ...



What this dude said. Listen to him, he knows what he’s talking about


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## jacko9 (Dec 13, 2019)

LucasFur said:


> I'm going to say. You get use to what you use. Like learning any tool, it's feel.
> It's like saying what's the best putter?
> 
> I've used my Togashi Honyaki the most. Owned 3 and buying another soon. Togashi is the only maker I've used extensively/ sharpened/polished.
> ...


I have been looking at the Hitohira Togashi Honyaki 240mm Gyuto myself but, my wife almost chocked when she saw the price. They sure look like a great knife with the knife sharpened by Yohei (at least that's what I've been told)


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 13, 2019)

jacko9 said:


> wife almost chocked when she saw the price.


A common reaction when shopping Honyaki. Tell her its a good thing you're not looking for an Ashi Hamono.


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## jacko9 (Dec 13, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> A common reaction when shopping Honyaki. Tell her its a good thing you're not looking for an Ashi Hamono.



To add to the problem I already purchased a Kato and a Konosuke Fujiyama recently so another high end purchase so quickly kinda put a chill on things. "How many knives do you need" is something I hear often ;-)


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## lemeneid (Dec 13, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> A common reaction when shopping Honyaki. Tell her its a good thing you're not looking for an Ashi Hamono.


OR buy that Ashi Hamono THEN buy that Hermès she’s been wanting for years.


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## panda (Dec 13, 2019)

Michi said:


> I've been pondering getting a nice honyaki for quite some time. What keeps stopping me are two things:
> 
> After a few months of use, a fancy and highly-polished honyaki is going to look like crap, unless I spend an insane amount of effort maintaining it.
> The food I cook will taste exactly the same, whether I've cut it with a very sharp honyaki or a very sharp Victorinox.
> ...


i would much rather have an ugly knife at a lower cost (without compromising performance)


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## panda (Dec 13, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Do you share @panda love for the Mizuno? Thinking of potatoes in particular. Still chasing a knife that will do that one task really well.


masashi from aframes is a potato champ


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## sleepy (Dec 13, 2019)

panda said:


> i would much rather have an ugly knife at a lower cost (without compromising performance)



Ah to be honest, I lean more towards the collector/admiring beautiful things side, though of course not at the cost of performance either.


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## panda (Dec 13, 2019)

bkultra said:


> For potatoes its hard to beat Heiji. Assuming wedging, striction, and food release are your main focus.
> 
> Yes I know it's not going to be a honyaki, but horses for courses.
> 
> ...


i honestly hate all wide bevel grinds, including heiji. but if heiji were to make a honyaki i would buy one in a heart beat and spend a year regrind it myself, hahahaha[/QUOTE]


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## panda (Dec 13, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Ah to be honest, I lean more towards the collector/admiring beautiful things side, though of course not at the cost of performance either.


then get a yoshikane black damascus, it's so freaking pretty.


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## sleepy (Dec 13, 2019)

panda said:


> then get a yoshikane black damascus, it's so freaking pretty.



Ooh I'll look into this. I think this is the first time I've seen anyone mention Yoshikane though on these forums - is he not as popular?


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## labor of love (Dec 14, 2019)

This Konosuke YS(also Yoshikane) I’m using has a nice thin tip. It could glide through potatoes with ease I’m sure


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## labor of love (Dec 14, 2019)

Yoshikane is plenty popular haha


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## lemeneid (Dec 14, 2019)

Yoshikane is too hipster to be popular


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## sleepy (Dec 14, 2019)

labor of love said:


> This Konosuke YS(also Yoshikane) I’m using has a nice thin tip. It could glide through potatoes with ease I’m sure



So if I understand you correctly, Yoshikane makes some knives for Konosuke? Are all Konosuke YS knives made by Yoshikane?

(Also, is there some compendium of all these acronyms that I commonly see around here? FM, FT, YS, SLD, etc)

By the way, does anyone have anything to say about Aritsugu as a maker?


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## drsmp (Dec 14, 2019)

My Yoshikane gyutos - Black Damascus, Konosuke YS, and K&S White 2 stainless clad (top to bottom). Piotr Knife stand from @Sharpknifeshop


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## captaincaed (Dec 14, 2019)

panda said:


> i honestly hate all wide bevel grinds, including heiji. but if heiji were to make a honyaki i would buy one in a heart beat and spend a year regrind it myself, hahahaha


[/QUOTE]
What's wrong with wide bevels? Easy to thin.


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## captaincaed (Dec 14, 2019)

panda said:


> masashi from aframes is a potato champ


Hammered or satin finish?


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## labor of love (Dec 14, 2019)

sleepy said:


> So if I understand you correctly, Yoshikane makes some knives for Konosuke? Are all Konosuke YS knives made by Yoshikane?
> 
> (Also, is there some compendium of all these acronyms that I commonly see around here? FM, FT, YS, SLD, etc)
> 
> By the way, does anyone have anything to say about Aritsugu as a maker?


The Konosuke YS is made by Yoshikane.


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## panda (Dec 14, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Hammered or satin finish?


satin


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 14, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Yoshikane is too hipster to be popular



I almost bought one it is good show knife for culinary students.


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## tgfencer (Dec 14, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Ooh I'll look into this. I think this is the first time I've seen anyone mention Yoshikane though on these forums - is he not as popular?



The SLD dammy isnt just pretty. Every Yoshikane I’ve tried has been excellent for the price point, including the damascus.


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## inferno (Dec 14, 2019)

even i have a yoshikane. so its a well known and used brand here imo.


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## sleepy (Dec 14, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> The SLD dammy isnt just pretty. Every Yoshikane I’ve tried has been excellent for the price point, including the damascus.



I see that I just haven't been around enough to notice. Thank you all for recommending his knives to me, I'll definitely have to take a closer look.

Edit: oh also, SLD is just the type of steel, right?


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## inferno (Dec 14, 2019)

so what do you REALLY want?

a honyaki or a damascus knife?

a damascus knife that is being used a lot will need to be refinished with acids and sandpapers at least. like once a year. and you need to try out which acis gives the same finish you want. it could also be a blend of acids. or a series of them.

a honyaki will only show its hamon after polishing with certain stones. and this will disappear if you scrub it down to keep it silvery and non rusty looking. 

using a green scrubby sponge on a japanese faux damascus knife will remove the color of the damascus. it only takes 30 seconds to ruin it completely.

so pick you poison. its not gonna be easy to keep it maintained no matter what you choose. just so you know.


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## sleepy (Dec 14, 2019)

inferno said:


> so what do you REALLY want?
> 
> a honyaki or a damascus knife?
> 
> ...



Hmm yeah, that's true. I hope the process of maintaining them will also be something I enjoy, though. It seems almost meditative, in a way.


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## inferno (Dec 14, 2019)

it probably is. unless you have 10 of them..

just wanted to inform you how it is to own and actually use these types of knives. 

i have made a few knives myself but making them honyakis never crossed my mind. since its just too much hazzle. 

i mean with "monosteel" aka same hardness all over you only need to scrub or stone or sandpaper them to get an even finish. done. 2 minutes.
but with honyakis there is much more to it. i need at least a good set of synths and then some tried and proven j-nats to keep up the visible hamon of the honyakis. f that sh1t. if i want to see the hamon that is.

i have heard that in japan they dont give a f. they just scrub the knives to keep them shiny. honyaki or not.

with damascus you run into the disappearing damascus problem. damscus for me is a 100% showpiece. not a user. since even if you are super careful you will sooner or later scratch the damascus just by sharpening it. 
or if you dont scratch it and never thin it you will just keep moving the edge upwards, making the knife cut worse with every sharpening. 

personally i woulkd just get some cool hammered clad or hammered black kuroushi knife. or a stainless kurosaki or similar. they only need 1% as much attention. or get a honyaki but then forget about the hamon and just use it. and keep it looking fresh. but that kinda defeats the purpose of the honyaki now.


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## inferno (Dec 14, 2019)

if i wanted something mono carbon with high maintainence i would probably buy a misono or masamoto from jck. no need to worry about the hamon since there is none. put some nice scales on there made out of megalodon teeth with rhenium liners or something, timascus bolster, using carbon nanotube pins and call it a day.

then get 3 good stone to keep it sharp. shapton glass most likely.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 14, 2019)

African Blackwood, Turquoise spacer, Black Horn goes better with a well patina mono carbon blade


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## inferno (Dec 14, 2019)

but its less "exotic"

the whole idea with honyaki is to provide something (that seems) exotic and hard to get. imo

-----------------------

i make knives myself and i can easily harden **** to 65hrc. i just temper lower. wow... that does not make things "better" though. and i would not expect any complete blade failures by doing 65 hrc, like a blade cracking in 2. but it makes everything 370% chippier and keeps an edge like 50% longer than 60hrc. so whats the point?? its 2019 now, not 1922...

today i made/glued up a handle for my 62-65 hrc (no one really knows) 15n20 krösa-maja santoku. it got stuck in the handle. this is a g10 handle so i milled it at work. but the blade did not want to come out. i had to bang it out. and it fell edge first on the floor. 

what happened? it bent.. but not at the tip. the bend was 3mm behind the edge. now if i were to try this with my only white2 knife, clad in iron to boot (hinoura). it would chip something fierce. or i might even have a total blade snap/crack. technology. its like magic for stupid people. 

i'd say most of this honyaki BS is simply just that. BS. get a kippington or dalman and be done. they at least use good/suitable steel for it. and HT it properly. imo that is.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 14, 2019)

Oh thought we were talking non Honyaki mono carbons. To each their own on handles. More is not always better. Have seen Honyaki handles almost as long as the blade with lots of materials & spacers. Not my cup of tea.


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## inferno (Dec 14, 2019)

i might be misunderstanding.


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## minibatataman (Dec 16, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> It is definitely good, but how good I don't yet know, need to test more. My standard is @Kippington workpony honyaki that has amazing food release. I am not sure what is wrong with that knife there are two possibilities, ether it has some special Australian nanocoating that has matter repealing properties or kipp dosed the handle in some sort of hallucinogen that makes me think it has great food release.
> 
> 
> 
> I think when he says 50/50 he means the edge was sharpened 50/50 but the grind can be anything.



They're quenched in vegemite


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## Kippington (Dec 17, 2019)

What an utterly preposterous suggestion.


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## Caleb Cox (Dec 17, 2019)

Foraged in fire


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 17, 2019)

Kippington said:


> What an utterly preposterous suggestion.


Thats the good stuff. I think it seals Jnat's too


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## lemeneid (Dec 17, 2019)

Kippington said:


> What an utterly preposterous suggestion.


You use vegemite to create the hamon?


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## Chicagohawkie (Dec 18, 2019)

So so honyaki


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## sleepy (Dec 18, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> So so honyakiView attachment 67022
> View attachment 67023
> View attachment 67024



why is it so-so?


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 18, 2019)

sleepy said:


> why is it so-so?


And who made it?


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