# Japanese knife with German profile?



## mark76 (Apr 25, 2016)

The title basically says it all. Doe such knives exist?


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## bkultra (Apr 25, 2016)

Many of the brands you find in the stores fall into this category, Shun for example.


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## daveb (Apr 25, 2016)

Was thinking Shun when I opened this thread.


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## DamageInc (Apr 25, 2016)

Some MAC knives have a german profile.


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## Iggy (Apr 25, 2016)

I was thinking about Miyabi. I find the profile of my 5000S quite "german".


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## richard (Apr 25, 2016)

The profile on the Miyabi 5000 is that of a gyuto...not the flattest one, but definitely not a German. The Miyabi 4000FC is more curved and has more of a belly.

But I'd also recommend Shun if German chef knife profile is your thing. They have different lines with different handle styles, cosmetics, and choice between VG10 or SG2 steel.


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## jbart65 (Apr 25, 2016)

Henckels, Wusthof, Messermeister and other German knives are similar but not exactly alike. Shun, Miyabi (owned by Henckels) and Mac come close to fitting the bill. I'd take Mac out of the bunch. Tough and sharp, with a great profile and handle. Only problem is the uptick in prices over the past several years as the brand has been "discovered."


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## MAS4T0 (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm sure Mark is well aware of Shun, ZKramers, Mac, etc.

Are you looking for a smaller, less mainstream Japanese brand making German profiles? 

I can't help if you are, other than to suggest one of the makers who will make you a custom profile, but I thought that clarifying might help.


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## mark76 (Apr 25, 2016)

Yeah, maybe I should go for Shun, but I don't like the brand. How about the Miyabi, does that have a German profile?


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## jacko9 (Apr 25, 2016)

What about the Masamoto?


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## MAS4T0 (Apr 25, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> What about the Masamoto?



Which Masamoto?


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## jacko9 (Apr 25, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> Which Masamoto?



KS3124 240mm Wa Gyuto

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KSSeriesHonKasumiGyokuhakukou.html#KSSeries


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## fujiyama (Apr 25, 2016)

Wusthof made the carbon 200th anniversary chef knife that's worth looking into, if you ask me. It just feels right when it comes to German knives. 

I took this photo of a Henckel overlapping a Miyabi. This of course is only one german knife, and one Japanese knife. Won't be a huge help in the big picture. 






For what it's worth, the profile of this Miyabi is very comfortable for rocking. It's a 6000MCT. I prefer the profile over the Henckel.


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## MAS4T0 (Apr 25, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> KS3124 240mm Wa Gyuto
> 
> http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KSSeriesHonKasumiGyokuhakukou.html#KSSeries



The KS is about as far from a German profile as it's possible to get - it's pretty much 100% French.

KS






Sabatier (French)





Wusthof (German)


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## wrobelan (Apr 25, 2016)

I have a shun kaji western knife and my dad has the classic western. Both knives often go on sale for 79.95. Definitely worth it at that price. Neither of us has had a chipping issue after more than a year of steady use.


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## Von blewitt (Apr 25, 2016)

I bought one of the KU versions of this Gekko off ebay, it got a kind of German profile, and one of the waviest grinds I ever tried. If you want it you can have it for the cost of shipping
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=331826536847


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## gic (Apr 25, 2016)

There is a messmeister carbon that is pretty cheap but it only comes in an 8" 

http://www.messermeister.com/Park-Plaza-Carbon-8-Inch-Chefs-Knife/


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## richard (Apr 26, 2016)

wrobelan said:


> I have a shun kaji western knife and my dad has the classic western. Both knives often go on sale for 79.95. Definitely worth it at that price. Neither of us has had a chipping issue after more than a year of steady use.



The OP is located in the Netherlands...also I don't recall seeing the Shun Classic 8" discounted down to $80 (never mind the Kaji) but it was last on sale for $100 in Q4 2015 in the US.


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## richard (Apr 26, 2016)

mark76 said:


> Yeah, maybe I should go for Shun, but I don't like the brand. How about the Miyabi, does that have a German profile?



So the different Miyabi lines have slightly different profiles, but in general they are have average to slightly-more-than average curve/belly for a gyuto, but none of the lines are really a full blown German profile like the many of the Shun chef knives (e.g. Classic, Premier, Kaji, Elite, Hiro) and are closer to French. But many of the Miyabis are quite suitable for rock-chopping, if that is what you are looking for. Can you also elaborate what other qualities you are looking for? Slightly more heft or lighter, balance, handle slender or larger, blade height, length (8" or 9.5-10"), steel type, etc? I am quite familiar with the Miyabi and also the Zwilling Kramer line up, so if you provide this input, I can customize my suggestion and information in response.t off But off the top of my head right now, I'm thinking possibly the Miyabi 6000 MCT or one of the 600 series (just avoid the S line, but 600D, 600MCD) or one of the Zwilling Kramers for you.


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## Iggy (Apr 26, 2016)

If the reason you're looking for a german profile J-knife is a decent geometry, good (carbon) steel and good cutting performance... maybe a Herder 1922 23cm Carbon chef knive would be worth a look. Only thing is that the handle and the balance point isn't japanese in any way...


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## wrobelan (Apr 26, 2016)

richard said:


> The OP is located in the Netherlands...also I don't recall seeing the Shun Classic 8" discounted down to $80 (never mind the Kaji) but it was last on sale for $100 in Q4 2015 in the US.



Both knives I mentioned measure 6 inches and were purchased in the USA at the same store. The 8 inch version is certainly higher priced and has less frequently been on sale.


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## Benuser (Apr 27, 2016)

Iggy said:


> If the reason you're looking for a german profile J-knife is a decent geometry, good (carbon) steel and good cutting performance... maybe a Herder 1922 23cm Carbon chef knive would be worth a look. Only thing is that the handle and the balance point isn't japanese in any way...



Balance point on my Herder 1922 is clearly in front of the bolster. It isn't handle heavy as most modern Germans.


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## Benuser (Aug 8, 2016)

And for the record only: profile of the 1922 is rather French, tip even slightly lower than modern French, higher than vintage French and Japanese blades. Please remember European makers have adopted the Sabatier profile from the 1890'ies, and only adapted little by little since. Has to do with people's tallness as well: modern German blades seem to be made for tall people working behind a low counter. For short people like myself their tip is totally unusable.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 8, 2016)

Would the Zwilling Cermax (which uses a semi-western visual DESIGN but a japanese-as-**** steel/angle combination) qualify? The blade shape for the 200mm version on the Zwilling site looks rather German...


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## Krassi (Aug 8, 2016)

i just sharpen them myself this way ("ballig"). Put the knife flat on the stone with an attempted zero degree angle and then slowly give them a nice convex grind.

works with all my lasers very good ...japanese or old solingen knifes does not matter
I would not like to buy zwilling and other german factory standard stuff (actually solingen where all those knife manufacturers are located is around 20 kilometers away from my hometown)

-Herder knifes are the only factory ones that have a good profile out of the box.
the big herder 1922 is regarded as the best series knife from its geometrie in germany.
-Jürgen Schanz Knifes are very good german style german knifes.
-Xerxes knifes are awesome
-holy &%$/ .. that zwilling ceramax 240mm is 320 euros!!! for such a %$/&$&%$ factory knife.. puhh sorry but i never ever heard of anyone in the german knife maniac forum who would have bought this..really dondt !
for that money get yourself a schanz ludicus!


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## Benuser (Aug 8, 2016)

Krassi, it's not so much about about geometry as more about profile. See the tip level and the resulting curve or "bauch". As for convexing, that's common with the right side -- at least -- with all knives, I hope, to allow food release.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 8, 2016)

@Krassi the cermax is ZDP-189 cored... don't have it, but that series is certainly the only Zwilling I'd ever consider getting


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## Krassi (Aug 8, 2016)

ok!
sorry for my misunderstanding

-then the herder 1922 IS THE BEST choice
-the schanz ludicus 220mm gyuto also has that kind of belly.

" the cermax is ZDP-189 cored." .. holy s.! ... now thaaaaaats something completely different! ) i thought it was just overprized junk.


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## Benuser (Aug 8, 2016)

Well. Krassi, Mark-- the OP --was looking for a fat belly, and I only wanted to explain why the 1922 wouldn't correspond to his requirements, and how profiles have changed. And why the almost French profiled 1922 is my preferred knife...


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## Krassi (Aug 8, 2016)

hehe ok i just shut up  .. psst 1922 rocks


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 8, 2016)

IIRC with Zwilling/Miyabi, MC66/MD67=ZDP-189, MC63=SG2, then there is a series made of a nitrogen steel, everything else is .... some 1.4116 variation...


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## ynot1985 (Aug 8, 2016)

I have the 5 and 6 inch petty from the cermax series .. I got them on sale when they were 50/60usd. alright at that price point but I wouldn't pay anymore than that for it. I think the prices are out of whack since these are discontinued


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## Marek07 (Aug 8, 2016)

Von blewitt said:


> I bought one of the KU versions of this Gekko off ebay, it got a kind of German profile, and one of the waviest grinds I ever tried. If you want it you can have it for the cost of shipping
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=331826536847



You posted this a while back but if mark76 didn't take you up on it and the offer still holds, I'd like to try it out please. I grew up with German knives so... ? If I don't like it, I'd be more than happy to pass it on again.


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## gic (Aug 9, 2016)

Masahiro 13026 might fill the bill...

For example:

Amazon Japan:

https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B001TPJBFK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Amazon US



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001TPJBFK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## limpet (Aug 12, 2016)

My two knives with most belly are no longer available I think, so this is just FYI. Akifusa/Asai AS and Itinomonn Kurouchi Nashiji. However, the Itinomonn is very tall: 58 mm.

More Akifusa/Asai AS pictures here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxEKq9uJ-aX7Wk85MWgyRWRDbFE
More Itinomonn pictures here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0BxEKq9uJ-aX7Snc4aW5HOTVSZzA


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## PieMan (Aug 16, 2016)

I think i'm missing something here, I mean if I wanted a Japanese profile knife, I wouldn't be looking at German marques...


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## jonnachang (Aug 16, 2016)

The Mac Ultimate series is pretty hefty, but balance is pretty much dead on.


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