# Burr: until which grit?



## benichka (Nov 30, 2015)

Hello there!
Well, the question is pretty straightforward: I know that when I sharpen with my #1000, the burr is pretty easy to "feel". I then go to my #6000, and I think I never felt a burr with that grit (even if I sharpen the knife 2 / 3mn per side on it, sometimes more).

On another note, I never managed to have a good edge with my #6000 (the free-hand-tomato-slicing-thing or the blade-that-bite-the-nail? Never for me...). I still have a hair-popping sharpness by honing my blade after that (yes... With a ceramic hone... It might be because of micro-serration I guess?), never before. Except 1 time (luck?), I hit the "bite-into-the-nail" point. And that was it, the only time 

So, do you need to feel a burr with high grit stone? If yes, until which grit? 4000? 6000? 8000?
Could it be that my edge is never "scary sharp" because I pass not enough time on the 6000, ergo not creating a burr? It can also be poor technique (possibly rolling the edge with the high grit?)...

Thanks a lot and have a good day!


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## daveb (Nov 30, 2015)

From info provided I would guess that you're de-burring the 6K with your steel. The steel should have no effect on knife at that point. Have you tried cutting paper with the blade prior to steeling? One of Jon's videos deals specifically with de-burring.


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## benichka (Nov 30, 2015)

daveb said:


> From info provided I would guess that you're de-burring the 6K with your steel. The steel should have no effect on knife at that point. Have you tried cutting paper with the blade prior to steeling? One of Jon's videos deals specifically with de-burring.


I didn't think of that... I tried deburring with a cork, it wasn't very efficient (little improvement though). It can probably be that my deburring process is not that good (I have a hard time lightening the pressure and keeping a good angle on the finishing steps).
I watched Jon's videos multiple times, even with my knife in my hand, but I guess nothing replace experimentation  The deburing motion he does on a high-grit stone seems very fluid and efficient, I'm not mastering it as he does :O


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## Mangelwurzel (Nov 30, 2015)

After you've raised a burr and flipped it with your 1K, you should be trying to reduce and remove that burr. Don't try to raise a new burr with your 6K stone. Try further passes on your 1K with reducing pressure before moving onto your 6K and continue to use light pressure focussing on burr reduction/elimination. 

I found this approach really helped me and prevented any edge rolling issues I may have experienced from using too much pressure on the 6K stone. Also, to start off it might help if you focus only on edge trailing movements. It will take longer but should help you to be more consistent.


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## benichka (Nov 30, 2015)

Thank you for your advice, will try that as soon as I can


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## Benuser (Nov 30, 2015)

Go on next stone when you can't reduce the burr any further and it just flips. That being said, you won't fully eliminate the burr on your 1k. A 2k in between might be helpful. On the 6k, only strop and deburr -- both very lightly.


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## benichka (Nov 30, 2015)

Thanks!


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## benichka (Dec 2, 2015)

So I re-gave a try to sharpening on my #1000/#6000 yesterday evening... After few strokes on the #1000, I deburred a lot on it, with "normal" pressure at first and then lighter and lighter as I flipped the knife. I went to the #6000 after no burr can be felt (and after deburring it with a cork).
That was the very first time I felt a "grip" on the edge when I passed my finger on it (sideways, not lengthways).
But the work with the #6000 wasn't that efficient; I think I did well, but probably not enough pressure (is that possible?). For some reason the edge is very "catchy" when you put your finger on it (still sideways, not lengthways), but it's not razor sharp (can't push cut paper with it. Didn't have any tomato yesterday so didn't try that one). Again, few strokes and the ceramic hone made it better.

I think that the fact that my #6000 is very hard is not helping: I'm feeling a lot more wobbly with my angle compared to my #1000.

Waiting for my #2000 and #3000, taking it slowly to a higher grit is probably better than to make a huge step from #1000 to #6000 when you're not that good at sharpening!


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## kohtachi (Dec 2, 2015)

benichka said:


> I think that the fact that my #6000 is very hard is not helping: I'm feeling a lot more wobbly with my angle compared to my #1000.



Sounds like you need to flatten your stone. Also have you tried the marker trick? you may also be changing your angle when you are changing stones.


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## mhpr262 (Dec 2, 2015)

I always deburr my edges on a strop - in my case a rectangular bit of very light and soft RC plane balsawood, with some polishing paste for buffing wheels melted thinly on.


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## Benuser (Dec 2, 2015)

Stropping works for me more to reveal than to abrade a burr. After a 1k, expect the burr to be quite large. Try to abrade it by very light, mostly longitudinal motions, very slightly edge leading to avoid accumulation of debris on top of the edge, the so-called wire-edge.
Stay a bit longer with the 1k for deburring. Stropping on leather, denim or whatever on side may push all debris to the other one where you abrade it very gently without pushing it back.


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## Benuser (Dec 2, 2015)

When keeping an angle is difficult you may cut a few pieces of cork, with inclinations that correspond to different sharpening angles. Might be helpful to get the same angle when stropping on stones with different heights. With sharpening, you may verify the scratch pattern to see whether you've reached the very edge -- or use the marker trick.


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## benichka (Dec 2, 2015)

I think that my stone is flat... I flatten it mainly with a DMT coarse, and writing lines on the stone with a pencil. Once they're gone, I'm done  It's more like a problem with my hands that are not "confident" enough to keep a steady angle! And yes for the marker, but I think that the angle is the problem. I tried tonight with a more steep angle (still on the 6k), and the result was better. Still not the best, but I was getting bored so I stopped...  The cork system is probably a good idea, I will try that to have a correct angle to begin with! I actually strop with my leather belt, it works pretty well! Big thanks to all of you for all the advice


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## Matus (Dec 2, 2015)

Apart from the burr which was discussed into good detail, I would say a few words concerning the 'bite'. After the 1k stone (and de-burr) you will feel that the edge has a lot of bite (may shave, but the feel will be uncomfortable as there is too much bite for that). Now with the 6k stone - if you spend a lot of time there you will get a fresh edge that will be quite smooth and because of the high grit it will have much less bite (even when de-burred properly) and you may find that the edge will shave smoothly, but will not be at its best with tomatoes. If you will start to spend less time on the 6k stone you will not completely remove the teeth the 1k stone left and will get more bite. You can basically 'tune' the edge to your need by how much time you will spend on the 6k. I got this as an advice from Jon when I found that my 6k edge was too smooth for tomatoes. It does work, but, as already stated correctly - you have to stop before you will get fresh burr on 6k stone as at that stage you have polished the edge to 6k grit.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 2, 2015)

to add to what matus was saying I do sort of the same thing with my stainless knives, my progression is a king 1200 (sometimes bester 1k depending on how I feel) and then rika 5k JUST to strop the edge (maybe 1 or 2 passes at most) and use Jon's deburring method. This is for aus8 aus10 vg10 x50crmov15 and my ealy parer (though I think the AEBL could stand up pretty well to polishing) ... I do not find my ginsan or carbon knife end up "running" with a 5k polished edge (I even touch up the ginsan knives with ~1 micron dope on a leather strop and it seems to do well)


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## benichka (Dec 3, 2015)

I read multiple time this "cuting vs slicing" thing... When I get a decent slicer with my 1k I think I will experience what you're describing! For now I'm just trying to get a really sharp knife on a 1k . This "bite" can be sense with a finger test or specifically with food?
Interesting that so many people stop at what I consider "not so high grit" (say, 5k is the max for a gyuto for instance, I see a lot of people stoping at or before 3k). When I started sharpening I though "the higher the better", whatever the knife / the steel. Probably because I couldn't have a decent edge at 1k :O


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 3, 2015)

benichka said:


> I read multiple time this "cuting vs slicing" thing... When I get a decent slicer with my 1k I think I will experience what you're describing! For now I'm just trying to get a really sharp knife on a 1k . This "bite" can be sense with a finger test or specifically with food?
> Interesting that so many people stop at what I consider "not so high grit" (say, 5k is the max for a gyuto for instance, I see a lot of people stoping at or before 3k). When I started sharpening I though "the higher the better", whatever the knife / the steel. Probably because I couldn't have a decent edge at 1k :O


regarding "cut vs slice"

when you make for a chopping motion (for instance, when you begin to dice an onion- the vertical cuts are almost universally made with a chopping "up and down" motion) you are relying on the apex of the edge to do the cutting. This means, if you knife is dull or you have not properly raised a burr and deburred when sharpening, you will obliterate the onion instead of chopping it properly. In your example I believe this is "cutting". This can almost be thought of as using your knife as a carpenter would use a chisel... 

when you make for what we call a "push cut" or slicing (cutting from heel to tip or vice versa, often this is how people slice a tomato) you are relying on the "toothiness" or micro-serrations in your edge. These micro serrations are a byproduct of sharpening and are gradually minimized by "progressing" to higher grits and in the extreme stropping (that is to say, polishing the edge of your knife will reduce the "toothiness" or "bite"). 

It is also important to note that different steel sharpens differently. Some steels will simply not benefit from polishing at high grit, sometimes this is simply a function of the knife not holding an edge long enough to warrant the extra time spent progressing through stones.


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## benichka (Dec 3, 2015)

spoiledbroth said:


> In your example I believe this is "cutting".


Yes, that's what I mean 
And for now it's almost impossible to do it with my knife without "obliterating" my onion or my tomato... So slicing it is! But it can be improve, because it's still not that smooth.
When I can "chop" an onion without obliterating it, I'll be a happy man


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## benichka (Dec 3, 2015)

Note: anytime I see the word "obliterated" now, I think of this post:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ube-Knuckleheads?p=42942&viewfull=1#post42942

and can't stop laughing...


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 7, 2015)

I use a lateral sweep across the stone on burr side same as last sharpening angle. This works best with quality steel. At first you may have some burr left or press too hard witch flips the burr to other side. Always feel for the burr on both sides after the sweep. As you master this technique can take off almost all of the burr with just a one second sweep.

To make sure all burr is gone can do a couple lite longitudinal stropping strokes on stone. I like a few passes on newspaper which completely cleans up the edge. Cardboard works too. Something in cheap pulp really works for removing any residual metal.


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## richard (Dec 15, 2015)

I like using an old wine cork


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## rhymeswithoranj (Dec 15, 2015)

I like using a new wine cork.

First step - drink all the wine.


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## Soccerman (Dec 25, 2015)

Have you Tried WE? 
it's not necessary to have burr,especially for expensive knives. I sharpened my Shirogorov folder with WE, because that's a $1000 folder, I used magnifier to watch the scratches on the bevel, for example, when I see the 1000 grit scratches on the bevel, I will start to do 3000 grit, I didn't want to have burrs because it removes steel, for a Shirogorov folder, I don't want to lose more steel during the sharpening process.


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