# Watanabe, toyama, masakage kujira



## preizzo (Jan 24, 2017)

I am thinking in buy one of this knives but I still don't know which. Please I need help..... &#128565;&#128565;&#128565;&#128565;
All knives are work horses, I would like to hear some comparison to help me to choose. 

Cheers Matteo &#128512;


----------



## inzite (Jan 24, 2017)

watanabe i think might be best cutter of these 3.


----------



## preizzo (Jan 24, 2017)

Tk bro! I am thinking in Watanabe most, but the knifewear discount are good for buying a masakage... &#128522;


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 24, 2017)

Watanabe or Toyama - flip a coin as to which is the better cutter. I've owned both, and I couldn't tell them apart. 

You can get the Watanabe with an upgraded octagonal keyaki handle, which I think is worth the cost. And Maksim could probably put a custom handle on the Toyama.

Sorry, but I can't tell you anything about the Masakage.


----------



## Godslayer (Jan 24, 2017)

Masakage; me and you will get 240's and kill it. Beautiful damascus cladding. The blade is super tall to 55+


----------



## chinacats (Jan 24, 2017)

Watanabe


----------



## Ruso (Jan 24, 2017)

Lately this forum was very Watanabe bias. Get a Masakage.


----------



## preizzo (Jan 24, 2017)

Think all of them have similarities on the shapes, don't now about the grind! 
Anyone can compare the masakage to the toyama or the masakage to the Watanabe? 
Tk you Pensacola and chinacats for your help. +1 on the Watanabe. 
Godslayer I am thinking in buy the kujira anyway, I have been thinking in buy it for almost 4 years now.


----------



## panda (Jan 25, 2017)

i owned a wat pro 270 and got to use a toyama 270, i thought toyama was the better cutter by virtue of balance of traits where as watanabe grind was biased for more food release and push cuts (it felt more like a cleaver). wat steel is harder than toyama but is also harder to sharpen.

never tried a masakage anything, but the koishi and that one from photos looks like a fat grind (not in the good way either)


----------



## labor of love (Jan 25, 2017)

If Toyama is available I would take it over watanabe, I'm almost positive they're better finished. I've never owned both Toyama and watanabe at the same time, so I can't recall really how they compare side by side. I will say I liked wat kasumi much more than wat KU for cutting ability.


----------



## Nemo (Jan 25, 2017)

labor of love said:


> I will say I liked wat kasumi much more than wat KU for cutting ability.



Is this because the ku drags in the food or is it a different grind?


----------



## fatboylim (Jan 25, 2017)

I remember a post saying Toyama was a refined version of the Watanabe.


----------



## zetieum (Jan 25, 2017)

I own a Watanabe. I love it.


----------



## KimBronnum (Jan 25, 2017)

Love ny Toyamas. Not happy with my Masakage Koishi and Yuki.


----------



## skewed (Jan 25, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> I remember a post saying Toyama was a refined version of the Watanabe.



No. They are distinct; two different makers. I read here that Toyama studied under Watanabe's great grandfather. The knives do appear very similar. Not sure of the comparisons on f&f since I don't/haven't owned a Watanabe. BTW- I think the couple Toyama's that I have are in a tier with very few peers.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 25, 2017)

I'd get the Kujira just for the "THAT is definitely handmade damascus, b****!" bragging rights


----------



## bennyprofane (Jan 25, 2017)

I have two Toyamas and one Watanabe, love both, would get Watanabe.


----------



## Nemo (Jan 25, 2017)

Opinions on Toyama and Watanabe seem generally very positive but split as to which is best. Makes me think that both are very good.


----------



## preizzo (Jan 25, 2017)

I will try to get all of them in the next month!! I will start with the toyama then the kujira and last the Watanabe! 
Tk you all for the advices, if you some photos of the knives one side by side will be appreciated. 
Choil shot would be perfect &#128514;&#128514;


----------



## JaVa (Jan 25, 2017)

preizzo said:


> I will try to get all of them in the next month!! I will start with the toyama then the kujira and last the Watanabe!
> Tk you all for the advices, if you some photos of the knives one side by side will be appreciated.
> Choil shot would be perfect &#128514;&#128514;



Wait? I thought you were supposed to scale down the pile not up? I think your going the wrong way? Just thought I'd mention in case you were disoriented of the direction to go?


----------



## fatboylim (Jan 25, 2017)

JaVa said:


> Wait? I thought you were supposed to scale down the pile not up? I think your going the wrong way? Just thought I'd mention in case you were disoriented of the direction to go?



I think he is back in business, which means more knives needed!


----------



## preizzo (Jan 25, 2017)

Yes guys!!! Will put more blades on sale soon! &#128522;


----------



## zetieum (Jan 25, 2017)

preizzo said:


> Yes guys!!! Will put more blades on sale soon! &#128522;


looking forward to it


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jan 26, 2017)

@preizzo: what length are you looking for? I received my brand new Watanabe Blue #2 wa-gyuto in 210mm yesterday. Is 217mm long, 50mm high and weighs in at 200g.


----------



## preizzo (Jan 26, 2017)

Want to buy a 240 mm! How is the knife?


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jan 26, 2017)

I will let you know after the weekend! I unpacked it yesterday, made a quick pic, held it in my hands for 3 minutes, cut myself :rofl2:, and then better put it aside...


----------



## preizzo (Jan 26, 2017)

&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514; once a drop a brand new knife on the floor and I did the mistake to try to get it while it was falling. Went to the hospital and lessons learned.! &#128522;


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jan 26, 2017)

preizzo said:


> &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514; once a drop a brand new knife on the floor and I did the mistake to try to get it while it was falling. Went to the hospital and lessons learned.! &#128522;


I have the tendency to try to catch everything falling down with my foot, works great with glasses. :doublethumbsup: I am glad I have not yet dropped a knife! :scared4:

I posted 2 quickly made images above...


----------



## preizzo (Jan 26, 2017)

Love the pictures, the knives look great, I was thinking in buy the kasumi version, but now that I am seeing the Kurouchi I have to say that it s not that bad.


----------



## valgard (Jan 26, 2017)

daddy yo yo said:


> I have the tendency to try to catch everything falling down with my foot, works great with glasses. :doublethumbsup: I am glad I have not yet dropped a knife! :scared4:
> .



I have the same problem and fear the day I drop a knife...


----------



## Nemo (Jan 26, 2017)

preizzo said:


> &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;&#128514; once a drop a brand new knife on the floor and I did the mistake to try to get it while it was falling. Went to the hospital and lessons learned.! &#128522;



Did this once but fortunately remembered what I was tring to catch before it did too much damage. Got away without needing stitches. Ended up needing to do my first tip repair though.


----------



## nepastovus (Jan 26, 2017)

We always say in the kitchens - never catch a falling knife. But I do always try to catch mine, they are more precious than a cut &#128298;&#128513;


----------



## Nemo (Jan 26, 2017)

Not more precious than your finger!


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jan 26, 2017)

daddy yo yo said:


> I will let you know after the weekend! I unpacked it yesterday, made a quick pic, held it in my hands for 3 minutes, cut myself :rofl2:, and then better put it aside...


Btw, Nakiri is stainless clad. Gyuto is iron clad.


----------



## valgard (Jan 26, 2017)

daddy yo yo said:


> Btw, Nakiri is stainless clad. Gyuto is iron clad.



The stainless clad Nakiri is a special order or his Pro 180 that comes with the plastic ferrule?


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jan 26, 2017)

valgard said:


> The stainless clad Nakiri is a special order or his Pro 180 that comes with the plastic ferrule?


It's his Pro Nakiri with upgraded handle.


----------



## Krassi (Jan 26, 2017)

Hiho!

Nice watanabes! 
And when i drop a knife i jump away life someone dropped a grenade!  i still have a scar from a shiro kamo knife that just touched my leg when falling..
Here is my new 180mm Kurouchi Taller Sujihiki. Handle is just a substitude handle.. And it has stainless cladding.
Cuts awesome! And also came with some stones.


----------



## supersayan3 (Jan 26, 2017)

You didn't cut yourself daddy yo yo, you just made a contract for unlimited pleasurable cooking [emoji6]

P.s. Has happened to me as well, to catch a falling knife(with bloody results)


----------



## OneS (Jan 27, 2017)

Sounds like misdirected sashimi cutting practice chaps ! [emoji6]


----------



## khashy (Jan 27, 2017)

daddy yo yo said:


> I will let you know after the weekend! I unpacked it yesterday, made a quick pic, held it in my hands for 3 minutes, cut myself :rofl2:, and then better put it aside...



Right, I will admit, I am not a huge fan if nakiri's. I do have a KU shig nakiri, but I'm just not that into them.

That said, this Watanabe nakiri is the sexiest one I have seen - ever.

If I was to ever buy a nakiri again, this would be it.

I look forward to a review from daddy.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jan 27, 2017)

khashy said:


> Right, I will admit, I am not a huge fan if nakiri's. I do have a KU shig nakiri, but I'm just not that into them.
> 
> That said, this Watanabe nakiri is the sexiest one I have seen - ever.
> 
> ...


Have to say I wasn't a big fan of Nakiri knives myself. But in late November I was, uhm, bored, I would say. :angel2: I started looking around, hadn't bought a knife in 2 months or so... :scratchhead: As I have enough (too many) gyutos, one Suji is enough for me, I told myslef I need a Nakiri. :eyebrow: So, I did some research and bought 2. :knife::knife: So, here I am with a Shig KU Nakiri and this Watanabe Pro beauty. I absolutely LOVE the way the Watanabe looks, it feels gorgeous, is a great cutter... So, basically, I am very happy with this one.

I'll test the gyuto this weekend!


----------



## Nemo (Jan 27, 2017)

daddy yo yo said:


> As I have enough (too many) gyutos



What's this "too many gyutos" you speak of? ;-)


----------



## preizzo (Jan 27, 2017)

Never to many gyutos!!!! &#128525; &#128525; &#128525;


----------



## tgfencer (Jan 27, 2017)

I quite like nakiri, I actually am surprised they arent more popular. I find the flattish profiles makes for quick work of veg but without the added height/weight of a cleaver. I see a few more in my future. Been eyeing up the Toyama 210 for a while, since it hits my sweet spot of heavier knives and a longer length than the Munetoshi I have now.


----------



## labor of love (Jan 27, 2017)

tgfencer said:


> I quite like nakiri, I actually am surprised they arent more popular. I find the flattish profiles makes for quick work of veg but without the added height/weight of a cleaver. I see a few more in my future. Been eyeing up the Toyama 210 for a while, since it hits my sweet spot of heavier knives and a longer length than the Munetoshi I have now.



If only that Nakiri had a pointed tip instead of a curve. But then it wouldn't be a Nakiri I guess.


----------



## tgfencer (Jan 27, 2017)

labor of love said:


> If only that Nakiri had a pointed tip instead of a curve. But then it wouldn't be a Nakiri I guess.



Haha there is that. In all honesty, I find horizontal cuts not too much of a problem with a nakiri as long as the grind is thin enough behind the edge and extends for a decent height. If I'm making multiple H cuts, or very fine ones (dicing for instance) than I definitely turn to a knife with a tip. But for just good old pile of chopping, a nakiri works well.


----------



## TheCaptain (Jan 27, 2017)

I have a "thing" for Nakiri knives. Based on advice from forum members my first non bst purchase was a Watanabe pro 165mm. It was life changing. Felt so natural and perfect when prepping veggies. I now have 3 165mm, 2 180mm and 1 210mm. Would love to try more by different makers but those stones keep calling my name.


----------



## K813zra (Jan 27, 2017)

daddy yo yo said:


> I will let you know after the weekend! I unpacked it yesterday, made a quick pic, held it in my hands for 3 minutes, cut myself :rofl2:, and then better put it aside...



Did you upgrade the handle on the Gyuto? On his site I only see burnt chestnut with plastic and burnt chestnut with horn. That looks like ho wood to me.


----------



## Jkts (Jan 27, 2017)

Set of watanabe nakiri's- 120, 150, 165, 180, 210, 270, 220 (cleaver shaped)- I use these more then gyuto's...


View attachment 34365


----------



## tgfencer (Jan 27, 2017)

Whoa. A 270 Nakiri, thata different! Do you ever find the edge sticking into the board with that much real estate and a flattish profile? What's your favorite size of the bunch?


----------



## Jkts (Jan 27, 2017)

The 165 is new, Shinichi made it extra thin. That will probably be my favorite. 

I love using the 270- it makes quick work of celery and other vegetables that can be cut at the same time. I usually cut on end grain cherry board and don't find it sticking.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jan 28, 2017)

Nemo said:


> What's this "too many gyutos" you speak of? ;-)


:doublethumbsup: 

:eyebrow: I lost count of them... It's, uhm, like 4 Western-handled gyutos, 6 wa-handled gyutos. :scratchhead: I realize it's only 10 gyutos! :whistling:



preizzo said:


> Never to many gyutos!!!! &#128525; &#128525; &#128525;


:viking:



K813zra said:


> Did you upgrade the handle on the Gyuto? On his site I only see burnt chestnut with plastic and burnt chestnut with horn. That looks like ho wood to me.


You have sharp eyes, my friend! :spiteful: I asked for ho+horn because I can't stand plastic and don't burnt chestnut...



Jkts said:


> Set of watanabe nakiri's- 120, 150, 165, 180, 210, 270, 220 (cleaver shaped)- I use these more then gyuto's...
> 
> 
> View attachment 34365


The link doesn't work for me...


----------



## Jkts (Jan 28, 2017)

Sometimes I have trouble posting pictures...


----------



## preizzo (Jan 28, 2017)

Nice collection of nakiris!


----------



## TheCaptain (Jan 28, 2017)

+1. You've raised the bar my friend. Ugg...


----------



## daveb (Jan 28, 2017)

daddy yo yo said:


> :doublethumbsup:
> 
> :eyebrow: I lost count of them... It's, uhm, like 4 Western-handled gyutos, 6 wa-handled gyutos. :scratchhead: I realize it's only 10 gyutos! :whistling:
> 
> (



Baker's dozen is a worthy goal.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jan 28, 2017)

daveb said:


> Baker's dozen is a worthy goal.


I should have that by April - EASILY! :whistling:


----------



## XooMG (Jan 28, 2017)

Almost tempted to talk to Mr. Watanabe sometime.


----------



## panda (Jan 28, 2017)

why so many nakiris? i cant bring myself to own even one, lol. in that style i'd rather have a small cleaver.


----------



## fatboylim (Jan 28, 2017)

panda said:


> why so many nakiris? i cant bring myself to own even one, lol. in that style i'd rather have a small cleaver.



Actually that's the idea of a Nakiri. Thinner than a Gyuto, but not so tall as a cleaver for closer positioning to the food. I like all three of them. Gyuto for tip work (e.g. Onions) and slicing long strokes heel to belly. Nakiri for straight chopping, hard cheese and large fibrous veg. Cleaver for power cutting and frozen foods. 

Realisticly, I could do it all with just a one Gyuto, one cleaver and mostly one nakiri but it's more fun this way.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 28, 2017)

Is that a .... 270 nakiri?


----------



## labor of love (Jan 28, 2017)

Jkts said:


> Sometimes I have trouble posting pictures...
> 
> View attachment 34367



Wow. Really digging that wat cleaver.


----------



## leansmancave (Jan 28, 2017)

@Jkts, wow, that looks awesome! :thumbsup:

How would you compare the 270mm Nakiri to the 220 cleaver?

Thanks.


----------



## Jkts (Jan 29, 2017)

The 270 nakiri is a big slicer (454 grams). I have three other watanabe cleavers- a light (640 grams), a medium (740 grams) , and a bone cleaver (1220 grams). These are more choppers than slicers, in the sense that the weight powers the cut.

I haven't really got a feel for the hybrid nakiri-cleaver (504 grams)yet- the edge is thin and it doesn't quite have the same weight behind it.


----------



## Jkts (Jan 29, 2017)

Thinking about it more- the nakiri and cleaver have very different designs.

The nakiri is meant as a slicer. It's thin and has almost no secondary bevel- you sharpen almost in line with the face of the knife. It's light and incredibly sharp- more than the gyuto. It cuts with the slice, more controlled and horizontal. 

The cleaver cuts more vertically. The thickness gives it the weight to carry through objects- the weight also helps with the rhythm and control. The thickness also protects the edge and the thicker tang with durability from heavy use. The rounder short handle lends itself to a rapid repeating steady chop.

Part of the reason I experimented with weights came from other folks descriptions of very thin cleavers, lasers in the cleaver world. However, when a cleaver becomes too light- it loses the weight that carries through a cut. It's like using a large gyuto as a cleaver- kind of dangerous because the gyuto wouldn't cut through to the board like a cleaver. 

I like both nakiris and cleavers for different tasks... if I'm plowing through a pile of celery and onions for a big gumbo or curry, I'll grab a cleaver- if I'm cutting vegetables for a soup or pasta I'll grab a nakiri - but really you could do either. I appreciate the cleaver folks who can use them for everything.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jan 29, 2017)

Very short update after first use of Watanabe Pro (Blue #2) 210mm wa-gyuto: I find the knife rather hefty (200g) but it kills carrots like nothing... I'm seriously impressed! :thumbsup:


----------



## preizzo (Jan 29, 2017)

Super excited about the Watanabe, I will soon place a order


----------



## Sharpchef (Jan 29, 2017)

In my opinion the grind of Watanabe is one of the best i ever had in my hands... And the HT is nearly perfect! I don`t see any point to view other japanese knives any more....

..bennyprofanes Gyuto is a superb knife with no faults at all, so go for Watanabe!

i recently tested a Pro Santoku from Shinichi and i have to admit that it was the first and only japanese knife that can reach nearly the same edge retention then my european customs!

But you really have to talk to him for a higher sharpening angle, the original edge was so fragile....

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## JaVa (Jan 29, 2017)

preizzo said:


> Super excited about the Watanabe, I will soon place a order



Which size and from what line?
Mine (180 SS clad pro nakiri) should be here during this week and really can't wait. 

I absolutely love my Tanaka nakiri but the 165 size is just too dang short. Expectations are very high for the Wat. 
Hoping it'll be a heavy-ish workhorse type of blade.


----------



## Sharpchef (Jan 29, 2017)

JaVa said:


> Which size and from what line?
> Mine (180 SS clad pro nakiri) should be here during this week and really can't wait.
> 
> I absolutely love my Tanaka nakiri but the 165 size is just too dang short. Expectations are very high for the Wat.
> Hoping it'll be a heavy-ish workhorse type of blade.



But make your own sharpening before heavy use! highly recommendet, the original angle was about <20 degrees, resulting in an very toothy blade after a few meals..... .... 30 degree work perfectly.

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Jkts (Jan 30, 2017)

There is less chipping after you sharpen a couple times- widening the bevel angle too much defeats the purpose of harder steel in japanese knives.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 30, 2017)

"the original angle was about <20 degrees"

Inclusive?


----------



## daddy yo yo (Feb 1, 2017)

sorry for threadjacking! Has anyone bought a 240 Watanabe gyuto in the recent months (no older than 6 months) and can post pics of the profile, blade flat on the ground?


----------



## preizzo (Feb 1, 2017)

Bought a kujira, next will be the Watanabe.!


----------



## daddy yo yo (Feb 1, 2017)

preizzo said:


> Bought a kujira, next will be the Watanabe.!


If you purchase today you will have it on Monday!!!


----------

