# Watanabe



## Moooza (Dec 13, 2016)

It seems like this forum reveres Watanabe performance almost as much as Shig. However Watanabe knives don't seem to have the same interest probably because they are much easier to purchase.

The Kintarou ame steel finish looks great, although it's pricey. What are your thoughts? What about the different finishes, info on the ordering process, fit and finish, grind, shape, etc.?

Also, would I be right in saying that in general the forum's favourite knives are:
1. Kato
2. Shig
3. Watanabe
4. Toyama
5. ?


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## alterwisser (Dec 13, 2016)

I think there are a lot more factors and everyone's top 5 probably looks different. Also depends on knife type. A lot of people love Watanabes Pro Series Nakiri, for example.

Are you interested in Japanese knives only? Because the list might look different if you include makers from other countries, like Wusthoff!!

Just kidding on the last one...


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## JaVa (Dec 13, 2016)

I don't think that's far of. Tanaka and Takamura should probably rank quite high too?

...But let's see shall we?
My top five would be.
1. Tanaka
2. Shiro Kamo 
3. Tanaka 
4. Shiro Kamo 
5. Takamura

:lol2:


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## CB1968 (Dec 13, 2016)

Moooza said:


> It seems like this forum reveres Watanabe performance almost as much as Shig. However Watanabe knives don't seem to have the same interest probably because they are much easier to purchase.
> 
> The Kintarou ame steel finish looks great, although it's pricey. What are your thoughts? What about the different finishes, info on the ordering process, fit and finish, grind, shape, etc.?
> 
> ...



The forum tastes change, at the moment it's all about Kato and Shigefusa however only a couple of years ago I had issues selling Shigs, performance wise for me personally I would probably go the Watanabe, I just grabbed a Honyaki Blue #2 and I love it, awesome knife, some have described Watanabe as a bit clunky and thick behind the edge but the specimen I have is nothing like that, I have also heard good things about Toyama, apparently very similar to Watanabe, I have a Munetoshi Gyuto which to be honest outperforms any Shig or Kato that I have owned for a third the price, I would highly recommend this maker.


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## daveb (Dec 13, 2016)

Yeah, what heI said. The Watanabe Nakiri pretty much gets universal love though his Gyuto are thicker than many prefer. I'm not a fan of the Kato/Shig, been there, done that. A big part of the lack of enthusiasm is they are carbon and I lean towards stainless clad. The price is another factor, it's gone into stupidvillec. The idea of buying a knife (a gun, a car,) just to look at it is lost on me.

I do like the Watanabe Kintarou ame finish a lot. Had a Yani with it.  Probably my favorite dammy. I've not paid the premium for it with a Nakiri/Petty but they are on the list.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 13, 2016)

Is the Itonomonn/Wakui hype suddenly over?


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## alterwisser (Dec 13, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Is the Itonomonn/Wakui hype suddenly over?



Was there ever one?

I think those were (are) really appreciated as knives that perform great for their price, eg: great value buys. In that sense they might be considered the anti-Shigs/Katos ... because as well as they might cut (the two Shigs I tried didn't), they are overpriced for what you get ... (sorry mates from down under, deep down inside you know it's the truth ... even though it hurts


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## Noodle Soup (Dec 13, 2016)

Moooza said:


> It seems like this forum reveres Watanabe performance almost as much as Shig. However Watanabe knives don't seem to have the same interest probably because they are much easier to purchase.
> 
> The Kintarou ame steel finish looks great, although it's pricey. What are your thoughts? What about the different finishes, info on the ordering process, fit and finish, grind, shape, etc.?
> 
> ...



I've used all of the above but not necessarily in the same patterns. Didn't like my Kato nakiri at all but it found a happy home with another forum member. My Shig gets used practically every day and a Watanabe double sided deba has been processing a lot of Dungeness crab this winter. My Toyama nakiri hasn't been in the block long enough for me to make a decision about it. 
As for No. 5 I would add Carter. Hard to go wrong with any of Murray's knives


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## fatboylim (Dec 13, 2016)

daveb said:


> I'm not a fan of the Kato/Shig, been there, done that. A big part of the lack of enthusiasm is they are carbon and I lean towards stainless clad.
> 
> [/COLOR]



Say daveb, what are your favourite high end stainless clad knives? Can be carbon or stainless core.


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## krx927 (Dec 13, 2016)

Currently the forum darlings are really Shig and Kato. I think because of all the praise and the lack of availability. Also Watanabe ranks highly. For the rest it is more individual preferences of different people but I think you cold name around 10 other brands/producers that would come to the list.

About your Watanabe questions: my Wat gyuto is much better cutter than Shig gyuto  I recommend it!
Ordering process is so easy: you just contact(email) Shinichi and agree with him what you want. He will give you the price and delivery date (around 4 weeks if item is not in stock). About the finishes I cannot really judge as I only have normal pro line. He also has KU and Kintarou ame or polished blades. But this is most likely your choice and preference. His knives are a bit on the thick side (at spine) and hefty. I think you can ask him to make it a bit thinner one (I will do that the next time) but they are still very thin behind the edge and exceptional cutters, so no worries. I must also admit that the finish is not so good as on Shig. The spine and choil is just slightly rounded - not enough, but nothing to worry. Perhaps you can also ask him to round it a bit more, I will do that as the next knife from him will be honyaki and this one will be harder to fix myself.

Great great underrated (or not )knives!

Perhaps this easiness in ordering and instant availability are the reason why he is not more praised. He should close the shop for half a year and go on long vacation. People would get crazy about his knives in the mean time...


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## labor of love (Dec 13, 2016)

fatboylim said:


> Say daveb, what are your favourite high end stainless clad knives? Can be carbon or stainless core.



This has some potential and no one really seems to be talking about it. Some sort of Yoshikane affiliation.
http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=94331&photo=4&size=n


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## bkultra (Dec 13, 2016)

Heiji is also a good one to look at, if stainless clad is what you're after.


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## labor of love (Dec 13, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Is the Itonomonn/Wakui hype suddenly over?



Nope. I try not to over hype wakui out of respect as no vendors here carry them. But they're great.


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## Iggy (Dec 13, 2016)

Nothing I tried so far regarding stainless clad knives can hold a candle to my Teryasu Fujiwara Denka 210 Gyuto performance wise (edge retention, stability, cutting performance)...

I know... difficult to get... expensive... bad f&f... but worth it IMHO :knife:

Maybe have to try a stainless clad Watanabe Nakiri soon though...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 13, 2016)

But is Watanabe not considered great value for money? And would the "great but idiosyncratic and overpriced" definition not include Takeda?


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## labor of love (Dec 13, 2016)

Many of us still like takeda-for their uniqueness if nothing else.


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## Iggy (Dec 13, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> ...And would the "great but idiosyncratic and overpriced" definition not include Takeda?



Tried Takeda (new style grind stainless clad) 210 Gyuto. Can't even slightly compete with the Denka in any aspect ("uniqueness" aside...). But of course you're right... Watanabe Pro and so on (Wakui f.e.) are in a different league value-wise.


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## Anton (Dec 13, 2016)

Highly undervalued; Hiromoto Honyaki western in White #2


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## labor of love (Dec 13, 2016)

Takeda classic carbon clad is what I like, I much enjoy them over the newer stainless takedas. If you like fujiwara due to high hardness and retention then yes-none of the other knives mentioned will really compare in that aspect.


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## Krassi (Dec 13, 2016)

I would always choose a knife from Watanabe because they perform better.

Well I had the chance to test a Kato and .. yeah nice.. next one .. but uhhh!! that Watanabe pro was amazing! The Billip and Watanabe were the knifes that i will remember on that evening.
I love mailing with Shinichi and his knowledge about Stones too.. He is also using cutting edge technology not like most traditional japanese Smiths.. and he is so innovativ !!! 

++++1 for Watanabe .. and i would prefer to get 2 semi custom Watanabe knifes than boring knife.
(yeahh please dondt flame me but i was never hyped by those)


@labor of love 
yeahh!!! you are totally right! i am so jealous for the big Takeda gyuto that Zetieum has!! i only got a micro 135mm Bunka but its also awesome! (of course a cheap used one.. 300 bucks for that .. never in the universe)

Seeya Daniel!


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## Marcelo Amaral (Dec 13, 2016)

The right Takeda can be awesome. Never tried the stainless clad ones, but the carbon clad ones that i tried are among my favorites (together with Watanabe).


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## TheCaptain (Dec 13, 2016)

Made some roasted cauliflower and leek soup yesterday. My Watanabe pro 160 sliced through a full head of cauliflower _almost_ like it was butter, including the stem. MUCH safer to cut with the proper sharp knife (and to think I was concerned at first about using ultra sharp knives) that before when I hacked at it with my poor German knives.

I'm female so I don't have as much hand strength as do most of you dudes. I cannot describe the pure pleasure it is to use that blade. Now that I'm comfortable with that length, I think a 180mm is in my future!

DH and I actually have to negotiate turns doing prep now since we both want to get our hands on our good knives, the Watanabe especially!


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## TheCaptain (Dec 13, 2016)

labor of love said:


> Nope. I try not to over hype wakui out of respect as no vendors here carry them. But they're great.



I've noticed there seems to be a gentlemen's agreement not to discuss retail items which are not carried by our vendors. OTOH I like and respect that, OTOH this is a knife forum and it seems self limiting not to have open discussions on all products.

First time I've ever heard of wakui. May have to check it out.


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## KeithA (Dec 13, 2016)

My Wakui is just a wonderful, wonderful knife. And the dealer was great as well.


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## JaVa (Dec 13, 2016)

TheCaptain said:


> I've noticed there seems to be a gentlemen's agreement not to discuss retail items which are not carried by our vendors. OTOH I like and respect that, OTOH this is a knife forum and it seems self limiting not to have open discussions on all products.
> 
> First time I've ever heard of wakui. May have to check it out.



I think all knives are discussed openly here and labor of love has mentioned (and many others too), praised a lot and recommended the Wakui several times (to me and to others).


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## labor of love (Dec 13, 2016)

TheCaptain said:


> I've noticed there seems to be a gentlemen's agreement not to discuss retail items which are not carried by our vendors. OTOH I like and respect that, OTOH this is a knife forum and it seems self limiting not to have open discussions on all products.
> 
> First time I've ever heard of wakui. May have to check it out.



Just realized tosho(a vendor here) does carry wakui. Now, let's talk about how super duper spectacular they are!


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## alterwisser (Dec 13, 2016)

TheCaptain said:


> I've noticed there seems to be a gentlemen's agreement not to discuss retail items which are not carried by our vendors. OTOH I like and respect that, OTOH this is a knife forum and it seems self limiting not to have open discussions on all products.
> 
> First time I've ever heard of wakui. May have to check it out.



That's not really the case, you see a lot of knives here that are not carried by "our" vendors. You won't see links to webstores of vendors that are not forum members here. Especially not the "togo" page ...


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## labor of love (Dec 13, 2016)

Def not a self censorship thing infact it's the opposite. The knives I'm usually into happen to come from vendors that support this site. If I was into stuff on marks site I would be all about his forum but I'm not. Also, I think it would be strange to go "there" to discuss gesshin heiji, Toyama, and K&S products. Sorry for the derailment folks.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 13, 2016)

@Marcelo Amaral considered getting one for a long time, but ending up more and more confused about which Takeda I want and which I don't want...


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## fatboylim (Dec 13, 2016)

Back on topic. I am really enjoying my Toyama Nakiri and Gyuto 240. They are supposed to be refined / slightly lighter versions of Watanabe. I think Toyama and Watanabe families train one another.

I really missed out in a Watanabe Pro Gyuto though. I need to compare!

It just shows that Watanabe is a benchmark here.... I think.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Dec 13, 2016)

1000Cuts, it's a bummer that people now have to deal with these not thin behind the edge Takedas. I bought some from BST and some from Tosho, all of them thin behind the edge. They are definitely harder to sharpen when compared to Watanabe, but they are light for their size, high heeled, less reactive than most carbons and have edges that are sharp, but can take some abuse. That makes them a good all around gyuto for me. Also never tried the Sasanoha, only the standard gyutos.


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## nutmeg (Dec 13, 2016)

Watanabe:


fotos kostenlos


Bilder hochladen


Kostenloses Bilderhosting


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## nutmeg (Dec 13, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FndYUdUlPg&feature=youtu.be


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## nutmeg (Dec 13, 2016)

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/roses1.jpg
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/phoenix1.jpg
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/dragonsaya.jpg


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 13, 2016)

@Marcelo Amaral (Takeda) what confuses me is that, if various statements scattered around here, there seem to be thin ones, some that are thicker behind the edge and "splittier" but take advantage of that for food release and still cut well, and others that are just considered badly ground.... I'd be in the market for the second option if any...


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## Moooza (Dec 14, 2016)

Wow, thanks for all the replies. It really seems like Watanabe is very well respected. 

I need to look into:
Fujiwara Teruyasu
Wakui
Takeda
Gesshin Heiji
Itinomonn

What's the deal with Tsukasa? The prices! I've seen some with some wavy lines on them (river?) and others in a black kitaeji style.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Dec 14, 2016)

1000cuts, my suggestion is, whenever you decide to get a Takeda, get one from Tosho and ask them to send you a thin behind the edge specimen. If you are not in a hurry, you could wait to buy the right one on BST. The ones i use, all of them are good at food release. There's also some advice on how to thin a Takeda by our KKF member, LucasFur. If you are going down that road, i suggest you get a carbon clad Takeda.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...a-thinning-(LucasFur-Method)?highlight=Takeda


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## Jkts (Dec 14, 2016)

the relationship with watanabe is different than with other Japanese master smiths. While he comes from a multi- generational knife making family, he brings engineering knowledge and is very open to communication. Being relatively younger, he will hopefully be making quality knives for our lifetimes. He produces enough knives that they are obtainable and not reaching speculative prices.

His professional line is excellent- I find it easy to communicate with him about what I am looking for and he figures out the best way to shape it. He is a principled knife maker, in that he has beliefs around design, geometry, durability, function and may not always compromise. 

I like his aesthetic- simple, clean lines, functional. Beautiful to me...


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## chinacats (Dec 14, 2016)

My heaviest knife by weight, but never feels that way in use. My only semi-issue is related to his kasumi finish which seemed pretty reactive...first thing I did was refinish the face with some sp.

Won out between itself and Kato for keeper workhorse knife...and I really liked the Kato.


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## fatboylim (Dec 14, 2016)

chinacats said:


> My heaviest knife by weight, but never feels that way in use. My only semi-issue is related to his kasumi finish which seemed pretty reactive...first thing I did was refinish the face with some sp.
> 
> Won out between itself and Kato for keeper workhorse knife...and I really liked the Kato.



I just bought some SP for that very purpose on my Toyama! Say, what SP grit did you go up to?


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## chinacats (Dec 14, 2016)

It's been a while but if I remember correctly ~1500 wet/dry automotive paper. 

As an aside, I really like the finish of a green scrubbie (Scotchbrite)...was closest I could ever get to a Shig finish.


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## nutmeg (Dec 14, 2016)

Jkts said:


> the relationship with watanabe is different than with other Japanese master smiths. While he comes from a multi- generational knife making family, he brings engineering knowledge and is very open to communication. Being relatively younger, he will hopefully be making quality knives for our lifetimes. He produces enough knives that they are obtainable and not reaching speculative prices.
> 
> His professional line is excellent- I find it easy to communicate with him about what I am looking for and he figures out the best way to shape it. He is a principled knife maker, in that he has beliefs around design, geometry, durability, function and may not always compromise.
> 
> I like his aesthetic- simple, clean lines, functional. Beautiful to me...



lus1:lus1:lus1:


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## Krassi (Dec 14, 2016)

And he is also a Pro with Whetstones! i would buy everything he recommends without a doubt! 
I am glad that other people also recognize this after more than a Year when he started to sell his handpicked stones.

Best performing knifes for realistic "unhyped" prices and i love his advice and stories he is allways telling me!
++++++++++++++1 for Watanabe!

Holy moly! @nutmeg those are some real beauties!!!!!


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## bennyprofane (Dec 15, 2016)

Those who have a Pro series Gyuto, do you recommend the KU or the Kasumi? Watanabe wrote me that the Kasumi is thinner and better for "precise cutting".


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## Krassi (Dec 15, 2016)

i will get mine in kasumi and will ask for extra sicker grind.


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## nutmeg (Dec 15, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Those who have a Pro series Gyuto, do you recommend the KU or the Kasumi? Watanabe wrote me that the Kasumi is thinner and better for "precise cutting".



KU is generally thicker. 
The KU I got from him were often thicker than the Pro line.

A Watanabe Gyuto 270 Blus Steel is my favorite and almost sharpest knife. Massive but not that heavy and very agile. I wouldn't go for thicker but it's personal taste.
BTW if you order a small gyuto like 180-240 you can get an ebony handle wich is really extreme comfortable..


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## Krassi (Dec 15, 2016)

Aha!  well Shinichi mentionend "that he will have something nicer for me" regarding the handle.. hmm interesting 

by the way .. i asked him for this 180mm Suji-Petty with 40mm height http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/img/petite180_big.jpg but with a blonde bolster...

-soo now we are at it will be polished no KU 
-"make it thinner for extra"
-and i cant imagine a thinner Watanabe Knife with sicker grind  .. they usually cute amazing.. is there a superamazing? )

i will see! 

Seeya, Daniel


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## labor of love (Dec 15, 2016)

nutmeg said:


> KU is generally thicker.
> The KU I got from him were often thicker than the Pro line.
> 
> A Watanabe Gyuto 270 Blus Steel is my favorite and almost sharpest knife. Massive but not that heavy and very agile. I wouldn't go for thicker but it's personal taste.
> BTW if you order a small gyuto like 180-240 you can get an ebony handle wich is really extreme comfortable..



This is good to know thanks. Are grinds the same between KU and Kasumi.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 15, 2016)

@Marcelo Amaral sorry to keep on that semi-OT line... does one really get Takeda to have a thin-as-heck knife? Got a laser, want something in addition that ... can spinkick, stare-down and elbow its way through stuff instead of trying to sneak through unnoticed


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## aboynamedsuita (Dec 15, 2016)

My most recent Watanabe knife is on its way to me right now 200mm white steel yanagi with keyaki handle. I always wanted a smaller yanagi and saw this on his specials page





I owe a thanks to nutmeg for guiding me on the virtues of the special line 




Jkts said:


> the relationship with watanabe is different than with other Japanese master smiths. While he comes from a multi- generational knife making family, he brings engineering knowledge and is very open to communication. Being relatively younger, he will hopefully be making quality knives for our lifetimes. He produces enough knives that they are obtainable and not reaching speculative prices.
> 
> His professional line is excellent- I find it easy to communicate with him about what I am looking for and he figures out the best way to shape it. He is a principled knife maker, in that he has beliefs around design, geometry, durability, function and may not always compromise.
> 
> I like his aesthetic- simple, clean lines, functional. Beautiful to me...



Can you post your picture of your 40+ Watanabe knives  :hungry:




Marcelo Amaral said:


> 1000Cuts, it's a bummer that people now have to deal with these not thin behind the edge Takedas. I bought some from BST and some from Tosho, all of them thin behind the edge. They are definitely harder to sharpen when compared to Watanabe, but they are light for their size, high heeled, less reactive than most carbons and have edges that are sharp, but can take some abuse. That makes them a good all around gyuto for me. Also never tried the Sasanoha, only the standard gyutos.



It appears Takedas have changed significantly I got a 270 NAS gyuto from Tosho that shosui made to exactly 270 after a "second" knife was sent to me. It's about 2.6mm on the spine but I've now seen 210 gyutos that are almost double that and with the smallest bevel. 




bennyprofane said:


> Those who have a Pro series Gyuto, do you recommend the KU or the Kasumi? Watanabe wrote me that the Kasumi is thinner and better for "precise cutting".



I got the honyaki 240 gyuto so cannot compare, but would probably go with what the others are saying. If you have the extra cash I'd go for honyaki (+110%) and mirrror poshied (+50%)




I recently got my ebony with nickel-silver and horn handles from James at Knives and Stones, so gotta get them on ASAP :running:


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## Jkts (Dec 16, 2016)

Tjangula, since you asked, this is my collection minus one...




This is my newest- a nakiri shaped like a cleaver...




The top one is a thin cleaver, the bottom actually a nakiri.

These are the professional line, mostly blue steel and keyaki handles.


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## panda (Dec 16, 2016)

why do you call it nakiri? cause it doesnt have cleaver handle?


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## Jkts (Dec 16, 2016)

panda said:


> why do you call it nakiri? cause it doesnt have cleaver handle?



The three cleavers I have from Shinichi are all single bevel. 

This nakiri is double bevel, with a cleaver shape. The tang is also different.

I wanted a very thin cleaver- it's really a hybrid- so I guess one could call it either.

I've only used it once so far, mainly push cutting. It has weight behind the blade, but is also very thin. 

Over the years I have read about thin cleavers folks here have and wanted to approach that...

Here's a spine shot comparison...left being the "nakiri".


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## panda (Dec 16, 2016)

single bev cleaver, that sounds scary


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## Jkts (Dec 16, 2016)

Oops, my mistake. You are right. They are not single bevels- they are all double bevels. With the asymmetry I had not looked carefully at them. 

The real difference is in the weight and the tangs are much wider- I assume to hold up for the chopping.


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## bennyprofane (Dec 16, 2016)

Wow, that Watanabe collection is amazing!


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## nutmeg (Dec 16, 2016)

Jkts said:


> Tjangula, since you asked, this is my collection minus one...
> 
> View attachment 33944


ok.. you gave a try and seems you don't like Watanabe that much


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## krx927 (Dec 16, 2016)

nutmeg said:


> ok.. you gave a try and seems you don't like Watanabe that much



It really looks like that 

And indeed the collection is sick! :eek2: Congratulations!


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## krx927 (Dec 16, 2016)

Krassi said:


> i will get mine in kasumi and will ask for extra sicker grind.





Krassi said:


> Aha!  well Shinichi mentionend "that he will have something nicer for me" regarding the handle.. hmm interesting
> 
> by the way .. i asked him for this 180mm Suji-Petty with 40mm height http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/img/petite180_big.jpg but with a blonde bolster...
> 
> ...



How much thinner will you go and what do you mean by sicker grind? I am also contemplating asking him to do for me one slightly thinner 210. I have pro 240 and it is perhaps just a bit too thick for my taste...


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## zetieum (Dec 16, 2016)

Jkts said:


> Tjangula, since you asked, this is my collection minus one...
> View attachment 33944


I think S.Watanabe likes very much also. ]
one question: you used a ladder to make this pic?


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## TheCaptain (Dec 16, 2016)

Jkts said:


> Tjangula, since you asked, this is my collection minus one...
> 
> View attachment 33944
> 
> ...



Holy moly I thought TJ was kidding about 40+ Wats. 

Can I confess to wanting to try every one of them?


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## Jkts (Dec 16, 2016)

It was a challenge to take a picture of the set. I'll wait til i get a few more before doing another family photo. 

Watanabes are about geometry, in the sense that it's not just the bevel angle and thinness of the overall blade, but the angles and thickness further behind the edge that impact smooth cutting or wedging, as well as factors that shape the knife as it is sharpened (and thinned) over years. Shinichi would use the same geometry whether KU or not. In that taking off KU would be similar to thinning in general, perhaps to maintain the angles he wants, the edge might be a tiny bit further out. 

I believe that geometry is why people comment that his knives aren't lasers, yet most talk about how great they are as cutters.

For those interested in exactly how much the removal of KU takes off and how that impacts sharpness, i'm sure shinichi could tell us.

So those who like the KU look, the knife will be a great cutter because of his understanding of angles and thickness. If you like a polished look and it's a question of cost, go for what you ultimately want even at higher cost, because knives are an investment over years and you can build your collection over time. If you want a thinner blade overall, and don't have a strong preference for KU, go for polished. I would definitely go for the pro line, as that's his highest quality of craftsmanship.


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## Jkts (Dec 16, 2016)

krx927 said:


> How much thinner will you go and what do you mean by sicker grind? I am also contemplating asking him to do for me one slightly thinner 210. I have pro 240 and it is perhaps just a bit too thick for my taste...



I'll be very interested in how it cuts- I've asked him to make thinner (and thicker) knives on rare occasion.


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## Jkts (Dec 16, 2016)

Thinking further on this, for the knife makers out there, would you hammer down (flattten) the metal to get it to the thickness you want, which would impact starting thickness whether or not you plan to remove the KU?


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## Marcelo Amaral (Dec 16, 2016)

1000cuts, i will open a new thread so we can keep talking about Takedas.


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## Krassi (Dec 16, 2016)

WOOOWW! @Jkts 
and those are only Watanabes! is his car sponsored by Jkts? )) Very awesome collection.. i guess you know why you got them


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## Jkts (Dec 16, 2016)

How rare is it to have a master smith that we can communicate directly with, and be able to order and receive a custom made knife within our specs in a relatively short period of time (4-8 weeks rather than 6-24 months)?


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## bkultra (Dec 16, 2016)

Jkts said:


> How rare is it to have a master smith that we can communicate directly with, and be able to order and receive a custom made knife within our specs in a relatively short period of time (4-8 weeks rather than 6-24 months)?



Rare... Custom orders from a master smith is normally years not weeks. Now if you want a MS knife fast you can buy a ready made one from places like the BST, EE, or direct from Murray Carter

Edit: Sorry reading your post I was assuming you were speaking of American Bladesmith Society Master Smiths. I now see you meant a more general form of master smith.


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## aboynamedsuita (Dec 16, 2016)

Jkts said:


> I would definitely go for the pro line, as that's his highest quality of craftsmanship.



All of mine are customs from the Professional line, but the exception is the recent yanagi i got from the Special line. I asked nutmeg and was advised in another thread that the Specials are pretty much the unique one of a kind pieces he may make from time to time; I also asked Shinichi if there was a difference in craftsmanship between Special and Professional, and he advised that the quality is essentially the same


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## Krassi (Dec 16, 2016)

if its a japanese master smith.. ist unique! i get a mail the next day and he is so progressive and open for every Idea, high tech and he works with the same attitude that i do .. nothings impossible just ask.
Also the japanese shokunin Attitude that you should never stop to advance and optimize is awesome with shinichi! i like him a lot!

Thats why i would only get new knifes from watanabe from japan or from xerxes in germany.. the rest is boring, overprized or suboptimal for me.

Seeya, daniel


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## dwalker (Dec 16, 2016)

I have my first direct from the source Watanabe being made right now (300 pro suji). Communication was clear and easy. It was great to be able to correspond directly with him. I know I will be getting more in the future.


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## Jkts (Dec 17, 2016)

I asked Shinichi regarding the thinness and kurouchi question. He replied that it is difficult to control the thickness in hammering and that the kurouchi can vary in its thickness. If a person wants a very thin blade it should be polished. To get really thin, it starts with thinness of the stock being used.


I wonder if that means one would trade off durability, strength and longevity for a laser. For a home cook like myself, it wouldn't matter, but for someone who needs to sharpen all the time... for you sushi chefs out there, do your lasers have a limited life span?


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## paulraphael (Dec 17, 2016)

Jkts said:


> I wonder if that means one would trade off durability, strength and longevity for a laser. For a home cook like myself, it wouldn't matter, but for someone who needs to sharpen all the time... for you sushi chefs out there, do your lasers have a limited life span?



A friend of mine who cooked professionally with a laser, sharpening it nightly, said he replaced it every year or two. I don't think he waited until it had no life left or turned all the way to a suji; he'd give it to guys who worked below him. I also don't know if he got much more life out of thicker knives.


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## Jkts (Dec 17, 2016)

paulraphael said:


> A friend of mine who cooked professionally with a laser, sharpening it nightly, said he replaced it every year or two. I don't think he waited until it had no life left or turned all the way to a suji; he'd give it to guys who worked below him. I also don't know if he got much more life out of thicker knives.




One or two years? would that discourage fancy finishes and exotic handles...


On an abstract level, it also suggests very different realities...

The chef (the artist) uses the knife (the best affordable medium or tool) to create food (the art) for the diner (the customer or audience)

Vs the knife collector (the customer or collector of art) who buys a knife (the art) with a beautiful finish and handle from the smith (the artist) to be appreciated by self and others (audience)

Vs the home cook (producer) who buys a very good knife (the tool) from the smith (craftsman or producer) to create food (product) for themself and family (consumers)

Or to merge all three- an artist using art made by another artist to create art for an art aficionado 

Is this too far into the deep end? &#128540;


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## JBroida (Dec 17, 2016)

paulraphael said:


> A friend of mine who cooked professionally with a laser, sharpening it nightly, said he replaced it every year or two. I don't think he waited until it had no life left or turned all the way to a suji; he'd give it to guys who worked below him. I also don't know if he got much more life out of thicker knives.



This is a clear case of over-sharpening.... these knives can last for much longer


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## aaamax (Mar 20, 2017)

Jkts said:


> On an abstract level, it also suggests very different realities...
> 
> The chef (the artist) uses the knife (the best affordable medium or tool) to create food (the art) for the diner (the customer or audience)
> 
> ...



This quote is worthy of dead-thread revival! 
Plus, I too agree Sin is the man and we are all lucky that his wares are still affordable without having had any crazy ups and downs quality wise as so many other smiths have over the years.


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## Jkts (Mar 20, 2017)

At the time I was struck by how this site has collectors and users - they both love but have very different relationships to knives.


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## Customfan (Mar 20, 2017)

Jkts said:


> One or two years? would that discourage fancy finishes and exotic handles...
> 
> 
> On an abstract level, it also suggests very different realities...
> ...



Nope, I think its worth the reflection... i've also seen that as we'll even though I sometimes see some transitioning.

I have also seen a certain amount of correlation between rarity (read as lack of availability at that moment) and the perception (we'll deserved in most cases) of performance. There are some good examples out there. Someone already mentioned this to some degree. 

All fantastic suggestions, Watanabe is a solid reference, i would like to add Konoske HD's, honyakis and other knives that I find to also be Supperb. I think Mizuno (various) is also worth mentioning more or less in the same camp as Watanabe. So many good options out there.... i could go on and on, I won't. :wink:


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 21, 2017)

I think home cooks who do it more out of an artistic/learning drive than just as a necessary corollary to consumption will be found plenty here 

And the purebred collector (somebody going at it with a philosophy like a nihonto fan: You don't own it and don't dare damaging it!) seems to be rare here compared to the "Great knife, make it work and when's dinner?" crowd 


"$200 knife and YOU'RE SCRATCHING THE BEVEL?!" -"Yeah, $200 would be wasted if you didn't make it perform like $200, no?"


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## Customfan (Mar 21, 2017)

I believe a survey would be useful to find out how many on each camp we have.... taking Jkts classification or Chef, home and collector. My only concern is what happens with people that are in two camps...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 21, 2017)

...and "combined camps" - eg you could have a home chef who uses $200 knives but also collects $2000 ones he does not use. Or a pro chef that also home cooks simple meals to feed himself/his kin using expensive knives because of less maintenance, and collects inexpensive, thematically linked knives that he does not use in either capacity...


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## Jovidah (Mar 21, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I think home cooks who do it more out of an artistic/learning drive than just as a necessary corollary to consumption will be found plenty here
> 
> And the purebred collector (somebody going at it with a philosophy like a nihonto fan: You don't own it and don't dare damaging it!) seems to be rare here compared to the "Great knife, make it work and when's dinner?" crowd
> 
> ...



Yeah I never understood the whole 'collecting of tools without using them'. Apparently most expensive outdoor & folding knives are only used for decoration. Such a complete waste if you ask me... tools are meant to be used! How can you truly appreciate a tool if you're not using it.


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## Noodle Soup (Mar 21, 2017)

Kind of depends on if you see them as investments or not. Other than a few elite makers like Loveless and Moran, used custom knives never increase in value like mint ones do. Lots of people just can't stand the thought of their prefect custom going down in value.


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## DaveInMesa (Mar 21, 2017)

Jovidah said:


> Yeah I never understood the whole 'collecting of tools without using them'. Apparently most expensive outdoor & folding knives are only used for decoration. Such a complete waste if you ask me... tools are meant to be used! How can you truly appreciate a tool if you're not using it.



At a certain price point, which varies from person to person, they cease to become tools, and become art. Once they reach that point, it makes sense not to use them. Whether or not it makes sense to LET them reach that point is the real question. If you've got the disposable income, I say 'why not?' That's kind of the point of working hard enough to have disposable income.


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## richard (Mar 21, 2017)

I believe you mean discretionary income

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_and_discretionary_income


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## joyless (Mar 27, 2017)

Can anyone compare Watanabe 180mm kasumi gyuto to Toyama gyutos?
I have 240mm Toyama, which is pure magic and my favourite knive, but I'd like to get something shorter and in stainless clad. Watanabe seemed like no-brainer, but after short conversation with Shinichi I'm not 100% sure if it's what I'm looking for. For starters its only 45mm wide, which seems pretty narrow (Toyama 240mm is 56mm wide)..


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## dwalker (Mar 27, 2017)

I could be off base a little as I do not own any 180 gyutos, but 45mm is probably considered tall for the length. For comparison, my 210 Kono Fuji is 45.4mm at the heel.


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## dwalker (Mar 27, 2017)

Here is my 240 Toyama with my 210 Kono for comparison.


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## Jovidah (Mar 27, 2017)

Yeah 45 mm is actually pretty generous for a 180. I've seen plenty of 210's that were only 44 or even 43 mm. 
If I'm not mistaken Watanabe was Toyama's apprentice or something like that, and the knives tend to be somewhat similar.


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## bkultra (Mar 27, 2017)

Jovidah said:


> If I'm not mistaken Watanabe was Toyama's apprentice or something like that, and the knives tend to be somewhat similar.



Shinichi's father trained Toyama and later Toyama trained Shinichi.


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## Jovidah (Mar 27, 2017)

bkultra said:


> Shinichi's father trained Toyama and later Toyama trained Shinichi.



Thanks for the correction! Interesting how small that world can be sometimes.


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## Jkts (Mar 27, 2017)

joyless said:


> Can anyone compare Watanabe 180mm kasumi gyuto to Toyama gyutos?
> I have 240mm Toyama, which is pure magic and my favourite knive, but I'd like to get something shorter and in stainless clad. Watanabe seemed like no-brainer, but after short conversation with Shinichi I'm not 100% sure if it's what I'm looking for. For starters its only 45mm wide, which seems pretty narrow (Toyama 240mm is 56mm wide)..







Here is a picture of a 240 and 180 watanabe gyuto. I measure the widest point of the blade at 54 mm for the 240 and 38 mm for the 180. Although I do not have any Toyama knives, they appear very similar in style. Shinichi can probably custom make a wider gyuto if you want more width.


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## wbusby1 (Mar 27, 2017)

Question: to anyone who's used multiple watanabe gyutos: how much performance variance is there? I ordered one direct and Shinichi told me he'd select one most suited for a lefty but I still found it to be a righty grind and was thoroughly underwhelmed by it's performance for a lefty (can't speak too much about righty performance). It was much thicker than the toyama I owned but still with inferior food release so I was bummed out and sold it. Sure was gorgeous and I was thinking about just trying again. good idea? Dumb? feels dumb to me.

Dunno if this is hijacking and I should start a new thread or not :scratchhead:


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## labor of love (Mar 27, 2017)

wbusby1 said:


> Question: to anyone who's used multiple watanabe gyutos: how much performance variance is there? I ordered one direct and Shinichi told me he'd select one most suited for a lefty but I still found it to be a righty grind and was thoroughly underwhelmed by it's performance for a lefty (can't speak too much about righty performance). It was much thicker than the toyama I owned but still with inferior food release so I was bummed out and sold it. Sure was gorgeous and I was thinking about just trying again. good idea? Dumb? feels dumb to me.
> 
> Dunno if this is hijacking and I should start a new thread or not :scratchhead:


I've preferred both the Toyama's I've owned over both watanabes I've owned(all gyutos). I can only comment on this small sample size but I do feel like toyamas are a bit thinner behind the edge, however 1 wat and 1 Toyama were too asymmetric to keep(in also a lefty) and I just wasn't crazy about my KU wat gyuto even though it was pretty lefty friendly. I just purchased a Toyama that's actually clearly lefty ground(this is bizarrely rare)...ask maxim if he has some instock that would be suitable for you.


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## joyless (Mar 28, 2017)

Jkts said:


> View attachment 35059
> 
> Here is a picture of a 240 and 180 watanabe gyuto. I measure the widest point of the blade at 54 mm for the 240 and 38 mm for the 180. Although I do not have any Toyama knives, they appear very similar in style. Shinichi can probably custom make a wider gyuto if you want more width.



thanks for the pictures! yeah i'll probably ask Shinichi to make it wider, i have 180mm yoshikane that is 45mm and it doesnt feel tall at all.


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## Jkts (Mar 28, 2017)

joyless said:


> thanks for the pictures! yeah i'll probably ask Shinichi to make it wider, i have 180mm yoshikane that is 45mm and it doesnt feel tall at all.



A knife at 180mm/45mm is in between a santoku and gyuto- wide for a gyuto and a little longer than a santoku... it will be interesting to see how it works...


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## wbusby1 (Mar 28, 2017)

labor of love said:


> I've preferred both the Toyama's I've owned over both watanabes I've owned(all gyutos). I can only comment on this small sample size but I do feel like toyamas are a bit thinner behind the edge, however 1 wat and 1 Toyama were too asymmetric to keep(in also a lefty) and I just wasn't crazy about my KU wat gyuto even though it was pretty lefty friendly. I just purchased a Toyama that's actually clearly lefty ground(this is bizarrely rare)...ask maxim if he has some instock that would be suitable for you.



That's a bummer to hear, my watanabe gyuto was KU too. I just wish I could get a KU toyama, or a KU wat that performed well for a lefty at that. Darn.


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## panda (Mar 28, 2017)

I think wat heat treat is better, but toyama gets the nod when it comes to grind.


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## mqphoto (Jun 19, 2017)

Where can I place a order on his website?


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## ynot1985 (Jun 19, 2017)

mqphoto said:


> Where can I place a order on his website?



just email him


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## mqphoto (Jun 19, 2017)

so its email not on the website?


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## Matus (Jun 19, 2017)

mqphoto said:


> so its email not on the website?



Ehm ... *HERE* ... 

Just go down on that page - there is also his email address as image


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## mqphoto (Jun 19, 2017)

Thank you Matus =)


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## Robert Lavacca (Feb 14, 2020)

Did some searching instead of creating a new thread. Just gotta ask man. I emailed sin asking for the tallest 240 he could give me. He emailed me a few days later saying he doesn’t do customs. Wasn’t really asking for a custom. So i emailed him back and asked how to go about ordering from him and if he could just give me the tallest option available. Even if its the standard 54 I would be cool with it was just hoping he might of had something in the 55-56 range. That was almost two weeks ago and he never responded haha. I remember reading he’s usually pretty responsive. Maybe he’s busy these days?


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## krx927 (Feb 14, 2020)

Indeed he is usually very responsive. Just send another email.


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## labor of love (Feb 14, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> He emailed me a few days later saying he doesn’t do customs.


Really? That’s certainly a new thing. Wat has a history of doing customs.


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## F-Flash (Feb 14, 2020)

Maybe his custom guy doesn't do customs anymore..


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## krx927 (Feb 14, 2020)

F-Flash said:


> Maybe his custom guy doesn't do customs anymore..


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## CiderBear (Feb 14, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> Did some searching instead of creating a new thread. Just gotta ask man. I emailed sin asking for the tallest 240 he could give me. He emailed me a few days later saying he doesn’t do customs. Wasn’t really asking for a custom. So i emailed him back and asked how to go about ordering from him and if he could just give me the tallest option available. Even if its the standard 54 I would be cool with it was just hoping he might of had something in the 55-56 range. That was almost two weeks ago and he never responded haha. I remember reading he’s usually pretty responsive. Maybe he’s busy these days?



He seems busy lately. He just responded to an email I sent about a week ago about what he sharpened the gyuto with


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## Robert Lavacca (Feb 14, 2020)

Yeah. Maybe I worded it wrong.. who knows.. i just said I wanted something a little taller than 54. I didn’t ask for a custom even. He said we don’t do custom knives how do you like the knife in stock. So I emailed him back saying I’m good with that just send me the tallest one you have i’m not looking for a custom. I think he’s just busy. I’ll hold off and try another time.


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## J.C (Feb 14, 2020)

I received his reply within 24hours. Bought a deba the other day, and got the knife in 3 days. Always a pleasure dealing with him.


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## thebradleycrew (Feb 14, 2020)

I've chatted with Sin a lot on e-mail over the past couple years. He goes from being very responsive (24 hours) to non-responsive. I don't think current behavior is a change, or personal, or different than normal. I think it's a function of LIFO e-mail accounting if you will, and simply the timing of when he is at his desk and sending responses versus when e-mail arrives. I've found that if I don't get a response after a week or two, I just try again. He usually recognizes that he missed the first note and responds.


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## Robert Lavacca (Feb 14, 2020)

thebradleycrew said:


> I've chatted with Sin a lot on e-mail over the past couple years. He goes from being very responsive (24 hours) to non-responsive. I don't think current behavior is a change, or personal, or different than normal. I think it's a function of LIFO e-mail accounting if you will, and simply the timing of when he is at his desk and sending responses versus when e-mail arrives. I've found that if I don't get a response after a week or two, I just try again. He usually recognizes that he missed the first note and responds.



Good to know. Thank you


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## CiderBear (Feb 14, 2020)

FIY the answer is


> My finishing stone of Gyuto is Kitayama #8000 synthetic stone.
> 
> You may have AI#1000 as a shaping stone too.


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## daveb (Feb 14, 2020)

My experience mirrors Bradley Crew's. I asked about a 285 suji, got no response, asked again in a couple weeks and he acknowledged he missed the first post, responded fully to the second. (And then made me a 285 suji - right at the 90 days he said it would take him.)

He prob gets deluged periodically and then sorts out the repeats.


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## jacko9 (Feb 14, 2020)

joyless said:


> Can anyone compare Watanabe 180mm kasumi gyuto to Toyama gyutos?
> I have 240mm Toyama, which is pure magic and my favourite knive, but I'd like to get something shorter and in stainless clad. Watanabe seemed like no-brainer, but after short conversation with Shinichi I'm not 100% sure if it's what I'm looking for. For starters its only 45mm wide, which seems pretty narrow (Toyama 240mm is 56mm wide)..




While not a direct answer to your question, I do have a Toyama 150mm tall Petty that at 36mm high feels like a short Gyuto. I also have a Mazaki 180mm Gyuto which feels too heavy in my hand even though I love his 90mm Stainless Steel Petty.


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## Matus (Feb 14, 2020)

My experience too. Sometimes the reply comes within hours, sometimes one needs to repeat the question few days later. He runs 2 separate stores, he must have a lot of emails to keep the track of.


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## Robert Lavacca (Feb 14, 2020)

That’s what I figured. I’ll try again in a week or two and see what happens. I see he crossed out the standard 240 gyuto on his website. Maybe he’s also out of stock.. who knows.. just wanted something a few MM taller. Not sure if he understood that was all I was looking for. I really want to go for a heiji custom but the long wait is kind of holding back. Might just go for it.


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## labor of love (Feb 14, 2020)

Robert, Have you checked out those Watanabe cleavers on the special page?


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## CiderBear (Feb 14, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> That’s what I figured. I’ll try again in a week or two and see what happens. I see he crossed out the standard 240 gyuto on his website. Maybe he’s also out of stock.. who knows.. just wanted something a few MM taller. Not sure if he understood that was all I was looking for. I really want to go for a heiji custom but the long wait is kind of holding back. Might just go for it.



I say this with all the love I have for Shin: If you don't care about the kanji, Maxim has the 240mm Toyamas in stock. Very low chance of requesting a specific height though


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## Robert Lavacca (Feb 14, 2020)

labor of love said:


> Robert, Have you checked out those Watanabe cleavers on the special page?


I have not. Sounds like fun though. I never got heavily into cleavers. I’m not completely hung up on height. I’ve enjoyed plenty of different profiles. Never got around to trying out a wat or toyama believe it or not. Lately I noticed myself reaching for the taller ones in my bag. I figured I would have a better shot going past 54 with shin then JNS. Wouldn’t mind trying either.


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## Robert Lavacca (Feb 15, 2020)

So sin got back to me. Said 6 weeks for more stock to come. I told him that’s fine. I’ve been debating a toyama but just reached out to heiji about just making me a knife. Im itching to try that semi stainless over anything. I’m a mess


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## labor of love (Feb 15, 2020)

You’re making all the right moves.


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## Robert Lavacca (Feb 15, 2020)

labor of love said:


> You’re making all the right moves.


I have the opportunity to buy a 270 wat. Just feel like it’s going to be too big for the table space I have available these days man. I find myself reaching for 240 and under more and more lately


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## Matus (Feb 15, 2020)

Toyama/Watanabe at given size (210/240/2070) feel IMO bigger than a more pointy gyuto of comparable size and weight would feel. This mostly due to not-that-strong distal taper (in particular from mid-length towards the tip) and to a bit santoku-like tip. Something to consider when reaching for a bigger knife.


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## labor of love (Feb 15, 2020)

I used to own an older fatter wat 270mm which might’ve been close to 300grams, it was such a fun cutter but I definitely felt hand fatigue using that fat boy for longer than 10-15 minutes. Wouldn’t mind a newer 270mm which look to be more like 240grams or so.


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## valgard (Feb 15, 2020)

Matus said:


> Toyama/Watanabe at given size (210/240/2070) feel IMO bigger than a more pointy gyuto of comparable size and weight would feel. This mostly due to not-that-strong distal taper (in particular from mid-length towards the tip) and to a bit santoku-like tip. Something to consider when reaching for a bigger knife.


Yes the weight distribution makes them feel heavier


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 15, 2020)

Don't mind heavy Wats. Like the way they feel I have enough thin lites anyway. Watanabe grinds are good too as long as you are right handed.


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## Robert Lavacca (Feb 15, 2020)

If I had the table space I would give it shot. Right now i’m kind of in heavy heavy prep one maybe two days then straight catering with slight prep for the rest. So I find myself using smaller knives now. 240 and below.


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