# TF nashiji Nakiri thinning...second session pics



## wphill (Jan 23, 2015)

I just wrote a long narrative and the pc logged off for updates. So, all gone. So, less to read.

Choil pic with towel in background is the before picture (session one).
Hated what seemed like an inconsistent grind thickness, left side only.
Inflicted deep scratches from my frustration. Right side sharpie band marking came off easy peasy.
Is quality from Japan knife makers dropping? Or, are my expectations too high?

Oh, how I wish that I wasn't dealing with a SS cladding. Hours thinning and then polishing (attempted) to remove
scratches. (SP 220).

Edge thickness 4.5 mm above cutting edge: .50 to .60
2mm above: .33-.45mm

Chip discovered near heel. Next step..use SG 6k to remove chip and same stone for microbevel ala Jon B's video?

Feel free to comment on what you may see on these pictures, as to what I need to do next. I'm here to learn.

Later, I'll do a veggie prep session to check real world performance. Strength remains an unknown, too.
Paper cutting was outstanding.


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## mkriggen (Jan 23, 2015)

> Is quality from Japan knife makers dropping? Or, are my expectations too high?



I would say no and yes. Overall, the F&F of the hand made J-knives has probably improved at the insistence of the western importers. In the case of this maker however, your expectations were probably too high. Teruyasu Fujiwara is known for great steel and lousy F&F, especially in the nashiji line. Keep with it and you'll have an outstanding cutter, but you ain't ever going to get that shinogi line straight:dontknow:.

Be well,
Mikey


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## idemhj (Jan 23, 2015)

wphill said:


> Chip discovered near heel. Next step..use SG 6k to remove chip...


6k to remove a chip? Perhaps you should go a little lower.


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## wphill (Jan 23, 2015)

I'm ok with rough choil, neck, and spine, as well as cheap handle...or even a crooked shinogi line. I'm not ok with grind issues...wavy and chunky. 
This is not a 50.00 knife. I'm getting off topic with my whining, but curious as to the perception of those that have been handling j.knives longer.
When I google some of the less expensive brands, I read that it's a gamble whether or not what one receives is going to be an awesome knife.
Yes, the happy customers report that a knife needs TLC but the bones are good...in fact, very good. Examples include Yamashin
and Zakuri. As for TF...does have great steel. I completely agree. And, for my project TF nakiri, could be though that there is too
much of a convex grind for me to be able to thin the knife any further. I can lay it flat on the stone, but I may hit the grind road instead of
hitting underneath it. I did some onions today. Smooth easy cuts. Wedging, though, is a work around on the board. Also, discovered that
my personal preference for a nakiri profile is a long flat space from the heel with a gentle upward roll near the toe. As is, this TF nakiri is more
of a rocker which does not seem to easily adapt to my preferred push cut, press down slice/mince stroke. All part of the journey. Learning, adapting,
and fine tuning. At the moment, feels uphill. To totally confess, I previously worked on a Yamashin nakiri. Crazy scary sharp white steel with 
my preferred long flat profile but the grind had a significant issue. A lot of work went into this one but a more experienced j.knife enthusiast offered some validation about the construction. So,
the seller graciously allowed me to return it. I was almost sorry to see it go back. I think I bonded with it. Then a good deal on the TF nakiri came my way
and I was already quite fond of my TF 210 gyuto. FWIW, the latter strikes me as having a more refined grind. 

Re the chip, I decided to let it be. Cleaned it up but too deep to take out. Going with the notion that I just have that much more tooth.
While weary and fatigued yesterday, working on polishing out scratches, I think that knife edge met stone edge. Like Mikey says..."don't
sweat the small stuff." Excellent reminder!


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## mkriggen (Jan 23, 2015)

Bro, I hear what you're yelling about the profile. I had an Asai AS nakiri that I loved the geometry, but hated the profile. Thought about reprofiling it myself (for about 2 or 3 seconds), then remembered Jon at JKI's has a big flat wheel. I sent it to him and he reprofiled and thinned the blade for a very reasonable price. I don't think he's accepting new work right now, but that's a temporary thing until he gets caught up.

Be well,
Mikey


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## mhlee (Jan 23, 2015)

Cheaper knives = higher likelihood of wonky grinding. Most times, you get what you pay for. 

Did you buy it directly from TF?


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## mhpr262 (Jan 24, 2015)

I recently bought myself a simple belt sander for 130 and have been practicing thinning a few times - it works much better than I expected (I am not especially talented when it comes to working with my hands - not bad, just average) and I have managed to turn a few super cheap and crappy stainless steel kitchen knife shaped bludgeons (think WalMart quality) into cutting tools that perform quite surprisingly well. Great fun and very satisfying. I also replaced the grinding disc that was on one side of the belt sander with a felt buffing disc and buffed the bladeface a bit. Now the knives really slice through the produce. Edge retention is still not good of course, but I don't mind using a polishing steel a time or two while cutting up stuff for my dinner.

Btw the felt disc is really too hard for this purpose, I may get one of those discs that consist of several "stacked" cotton cloth circles.


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## wphill (Jan 24, 2015)

Mhlee, 
I opened the door on that one! Two sides of the issue come to mind. One is to buy locally. Have a better chance of falling back on customer service.
The other side is...there's no guarantee, not all retailers are going to meticulously screen for low quality, where's the pride that we in this fetish like
knife community attach to these hand made knives?, do the likes of TF regard us as an unworthy ugly american, or something? 

Meanwhile, I'm happy and willing to work with the above TF nakiri, as is. Though, I did engage in some whining, I am learning along the way. Besides a thinning
strategy I tried to blend primary and secondary grinds with what I think is called a clamshell grind. I'm not sure that it is evident in the pictures.?

My wife likes a rocker, so now I have reason to go on the hunt for an all carbon nakiri. A his and hers. This then opens up another inquiry here...any suggestions?
Price 150 range....First two thirds of the edge flat. Good steel.

No matter, I still wish to improve the above TF nakiri and welcome feedback...should the pictures reveal anything. Please feel free to comment.
I have thickish, so so, skin.

To strengthen the edge, particularly where there is that chip..not too bad since it has a semi wide base versus a deep v cut....I did my best to apply a micro bevel of about 35% on the right side. My first ever attempt. In the process of smoothing out the chip and doing the microbevel the edge now is a little sticky on a paper cut. I imagine that I pushed some
fatigued metal into small burrs. All this may reveal a shortcoming in technique...and, an opportunity to learn more. A more experience sharpener visits once
in a while. A hands on evaluation will be instructive, for sure. Until then, don't hold back. 

mhpr...the belt sander has crossed my mind and maybe there's the ticket for the enhusiast, albeit not truly practical. It's a hobby and I agree...very satisfying to take a cheap SS from a friend
and to turn it into something that has a wow factor. Just recently, I decided to stop taking these knives. Too much stress on me and my pricey stones. So, the sander might be good to have in the tool box.
Thanks,Bill


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## chinacats (Jan 24, 2015)

This thread is exactly why I've never spent money on a TF even though I've been tempted.

As to retailers screening for low quality, the forum sellers actually do, maybe that's why they don't sell those knives?


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## wphill (Jan 24, 2015)

chinacats,
I understand. Consider my feedback validation and feel free to share any thoughts about the other half of this thread---the transformation process.

My wife used the nakiri on some carrots. Another very small chip appeared near the heel and paper cutting got sticky.
So, clearly the primary edge is too thin and/or needs a higher angle. My analysis, anyway. Back to the stones.
I started with a chosera 2k, plus mud made by an atoma 140, and to my delight the chippy area faded away.
One odd sensation: sometimes I heard and felt a ping from the blade. Part of me anxiously asked ***, and the rest of me
me said no problem if I don't see something out of the ordinary. I prefer to think that a burr was raised and separating from 
this rather hard steel. No wire evident but sudden heavy metal swarf.

I then finished a progression all the way to 6k stone with
a little slurry from a belgium coti. I put a circa 35 degree micro bevel on the right side.
Last, stropped and put the loupe on it. I like what I see. All looks good and the paper cut was whisper smooth.
I am hoping that edge will be considerably stronger and that I wil adjust to the profile. Performance on product
remains for the real world test.


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## EdipisReks (Jan 24, 2015)

chinacats said:


> This thread is exactly why I've never spent money on a TF even though I've been tempted.



Same.


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## wphill (Jan 25, 2015)

Reputation can take hard work to build, but when spoiled it may never regain support.
No argument, here. This feeling about TF, relatively recent? 

For me, as a project knife, I'm going in the direction that it might work out. A lot of
work, but a lot of learning too. The choil shot suggests to me that my next step is to focus on a narrow area behind the edge. Make it easy
on myself. Not feel obligated to go all the way up to the grind road. For the moment, I'll use it more before taking off more metal.










Nakiri's,as a type of kitchen knife, is growing on me. 
While I'm not likely to have more than one gyuto (yeah, yeah), I might be in the 
hunt for another nakiri with a flatter profile. Has me wondering about weight. My hands
have nerve problems. They are still looking for a knife that is a laser but then again
as long as the knife is not too long weight works with my hands and not against them.


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## XooMG (Jan 25, 2015)

I think it is the pendulum swinging from hype to reason, rather than a recent change in anything Mr. Fujiwara has been doing. This community is fickle and it is not always justified.


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## chinacats (Jan 25, 2015)

XooMG said:


> I think it is the pendulum swinging from hype to reason, rather than a recent change in anything Mr. Fujiwara has been doing. This community is fickle and it is not always justified.



This is not a recent thing...poor fit and finish has been the calling card on these for a long time. They have only become popular again because people who don't know better buy them and find out what others have known all along...no change in the knives whatsoever. Then they come here and complain about the quality. People that have known about these knives say they suck and other people complain that the people complaining are fickle.:wink:


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 25, 2015)

chinacats said:


> *This is not a recent thing...poor fit and finish has been the calling card on these for a long time.* They have only become popular again because people who don't know better buy them and find out what others have known all along...no change in the knives whatsoever. Then they come here and complain about the quality. People that have known about these knives say they suck and other people complain that the people complaining are fickle.:wink:



Hard to argue with this - back in the day Teruyasu knives were distinguished by their very poor western handles, and the fact they were _very_ expensive compared to the other flavours of the day (actually, the Maboroshi was very expensive, and the Denka was astronomical - more expensive than just about any mizu-honyaki gyuto that was around at the time, iirc). Interestingly, the prices haven't increased, if anything they are cheaper now they are more readily available direct from the maker, and don't look quite so out of place now.

The Nashiji line was mainly limited to smaller knives with crap wa-handles. This changed when JCK started carrying them (rebranded as Fu Rin Ka Zan - I had one of these, it was an average performer). Then cktg picked them up (with the 240mm gyuto clocking in at more than double the JCK price) someone wrote a glowing review, and the hype machine went into overdrive.


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## wphill (Jan 25, 2015)

Timethebeaver,
Some of us place a premium on handles; I don't as I use pinch grip but I accept that we have different priorities. 
While I'm still relatively new to j.knives, I own a 210 nashiji gyuto that I bought used, and
it's a workhorse. My eye and hand like it. F&F is not an issue for this particular knife. Where
there's smoke, there's fire. I get it. But, I'm hesitant to paint with too broad of a stroke. The 
steel is exceptional and there's a rustic look that appeals to me. Having said that, it is ashame
that the maker has bones of a great knife, keeping in mind that there are always trade offs in
a design, but that something is missing in consistent execution. Half glass vs half full? 

I opened the door on this issue. Sigh.


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 25, 2015)

wphill,

If _you_ like the knife, that's all that really matters . 

TTB


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## wphill (Jan 25, 2015)

Can I get to this point with the nakiri in hand? Well, I'll see if function can triumph, as is.


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## XooMG (Jan 25, 2015)

Timthebeaver said:


> Hard to argue with this - back in the day Teruyasu knives were distinguished by their very poor western handles, and the fact they were _very_ expensive compared to the other flavours of the day (actually, the Maboroshi was very expensive, and the Denka was astronomical - more expensive than just about any mizu-honyaki gyuto that was around at the time, iirc). Interestingly, the prices haven't increased, if anything they are cheaper now they are more readily available direct from the maker, and don't look quite so out of place now.
> 
> The Nashiji line was mainly limited to smaller knives with crap wa-handles. This changed when JCK started carrying them (rebranded as Fu Rin Ka Zan - I had one of these, it was an average performer). Then cktg picked them up (with the 240mm gyuto clocking in at more than double the JCK price) someone wrote a glowing review, and the hype machine went into overdrive.


Don't forget Jon carried them at one time as well.


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 25, 2015)

XooMG said:


> Don't forget Jon carried them at one time as well.



Only the Maboroshi line (western) iirc.


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## XooMG (Jan 25, 2015)

wphill said:


> Can I get to this point with the nakiri in hand? Well, I'll see if function can triumph, as is.


Keep in mind that not every nakiri needs to have a geometry like that. I have knives like that, but my current favorite nakiri is not.



Timthebeaver said:


> Only the Maboroshi line (western) iirc.


He actually told me that in some ways the nashiji are superior...in particular the thinness behind the edge and overall. It may yield a better project knife.

I have a maboroshi no meito and it is not head and shoulders above the nashiji, which I also have.


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## chinacats (Jan 25, 2015)

He no longer carries them, maybe it was a qc problem? Not trying to speak for Jon but it would make sense.


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## XooMG (Jan 25, 2015)

chinacats said:


> He no longer carries them, maybe it was a qc problem? Not trying to speak for Jon but it would make sense.


Yep he dropped them...he and I had a bit of discussion on it not too long ago. However, to claim everyone knew the blades were wonky and inconsistent all along is disingenuous. Most of the earlier criticism is directed at the handles.


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## XooMG (Jan 25, 2015)

OP, sorry I didn't have a chance to take a good pic, but here's a bad choilie of one of my current favorite nakiri (the other being a totally different geometry):





Still pretty thin close to the edge, but a bit more achievable with your Fujiwara than the example you posted.


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## JBroida (Jan 25, 2015)

XooMG said:


> Yep he dropped them...he and I had a bit of discussion on it not too long ago. However, to claim everyone knew the blades were wonky and inconsistent all along is disingenuous. Most of the earlier criticism is directed at the handles.



i actually carried more than just the maboroshi no meito... that was just the only one we had on our website. The western handles were the roughest part, but i saw grind issues on almost all of them too. We had to put extra work into them before shipping out.


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## wphill (Jan 25, 2015)

Xoomg,
Nice choil shot. I'll shoot for that one. Ultimately, it's performance that counts. I wish there was a way
to quantify it for the sake of comparison. I usually look at distance needed: push, followed by a pull, on a dense carrot with minimal downward pressure.
Fwiw...with a 1.25 inch carrot, took me all of a push, and then most of the pull. Fairly smooth ride. Smoother, though, with an older TF 210 gyuto. But,
if it came to mincing, which is what I use the nakiri for, I don't think that I would prefer a gyuto.

That other picture, not mine, is of a Kamo. Nice lines with soft ridges and patina. The kind of look and feel that I suppose only comes with an all carbon knife.


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## wphill (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm still at it and while measurements of thinness is not the whole picture I'm
curious as to how thin some of these choil shots are behind the edge.
I'm estimating that when I have measured, the first sampling is about 4 to 5 mm behind the edge.
I take five samples from heel to toe, twice. Then, I do the same for what looks about 2 to 3 mm behind
the edge. The calibrator comes from Home Depot. Not exactly a top drawer tool
but provides some feedback. My last measurements average around .75mm and .45mm
for those distances behind the cutting edge. As an aside, I want to underscore that such 
measurements probably don't tell the whole story in terms of performance. In my last 
hour plus veggie mincing session, the 210 TF gyuto seemed to be a better performer
and it is not as thin behind the edge. I used both TF's, the gyuto and the nakiri. My 
problematic hands tell the story...less pain with the gyuto. But, I am not yet
ready to give up on trying to transform the TF nakiri. Could be that I need a longer
flat space. If so, I will probably move on to another brand. Meanwhile, curious about
thinness in terms of actual mm's. Sorry, if I'm repeating myself. Kind of obsessive
at the moment and you guys are too good of a resource to overlook.


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## wphill (Jan 28, 2015)

I'm done. Could be talking to myself, but thought that I would post.
Not the most elegant choil view, but the knife gave me a wow when
doing the paper test and then on the cutting board. Eventually,
I will have a chance to make a comparison with a known top
performing edge.




Some more tweaking on the edge with burr removal, micro bevel,etc. Major surgery done.


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## chinacats (Jan 28, 2015)

Looks like a quality job, congratulations! I bet it cuts wonderfully.


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## Bill13 (Jan 28, 2015)

You were not talking to yourself! Thanks for sharing!


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## riba (Jan 28, 2015)

Nice job!


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## wphill (Jan 28, 2015)

Riba,
Good to see your post! I believe that it was your choil view that was inspiring!
In fact, I might have borrowed it in this thread...since removed...sorry to whomever,
but it was too good of an image. 

Ultimately, it will be about how well a veggie prep session goes. 
When I look at the choil views for the TF I don't see that much change,
but when I hold it out in front of my naked eye I have a nice sense of satisfaction.

I had the steel that I wanted for good bones. Unexpected was what appears to have
been a wavy grind on just one side...the left. My wife had the honors of what I use
as the standard carrot test. Carrot is about 1.25 inch diameter. Heel is placed on top
and she pulls back to get a coarse slice. Little to no hand pressure. Slice fell a little
more than half way the length of the blade and the ride was very smooth...no sense of
wedging. She's a tough critic and a "wow" from her counts for something!

This brings to mind a point sent to me by a forum member. My interpretation is
that is some value to having thickness in the secondary grind. The tough part is finding
what was identified as the "sweet spot"--not too thin, nor too thick. And, I would add
my speculation that the shape (style of grind) and the angle of the grind on each side
all contribute to a smooth ride without binding in dense product like a carrot. No doubt
a lot has been debated and re-debated on these matters. I didn't go for 50 for 50.
Rather very flat on the left, and more angle on the right....all in regards to the grind
not much more than 8-10mm up from the cutting edge. Of course, I don't pretend to 
really know geometry...more a matter of taking a stab as long as I'm putting hours of the
steel on the stone.

Thanks guys!


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## designdog (Jan 28, 2015)

I have a TF nasijij 240 and 210 gyuto, and the 150 petty. No grind problems whatsoever- or any other problems. Have sharpened all three.

I have beaucoup Japanese knives, Kato, Heiji, Hide, Shige, Suisin, etc, and these are up there with 'em. Either I was lucky, or you were not...


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## XooMG (Jan 29, 2015)

designdog said:


> I have a TF nasijij 240 and 210 gyuto, and the 150 petty. No grind problems whatsoever- or any other problems. Have sharpened all three.
> 
> I have beaucoup Japanese knives, Kato, Heiji, Hide, Shige, Suisin, etc, and these are up there with 'em. Either I was lucky, or you were not...


Pretty sure you are lucky, or have perception issues.


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## wphill (Jan 29, 2015)

It may take a month or so but eventually I'll have an example of the Wauki knife line in my hands for a comparison with performance.
I had some hint that a direct purchase from TF might become problematic, though I did not consider it a given. Fellow j.knife
enthusiast with considerably more experience and talent, however, recently received a 240 gyuto. When I saw it, my jaw dropped.
Shameful that the maker would put his name on it. Then again, same fellow had ordered TF knives both directly and from domestic
retailer that culminated in considerable consumer satisfaction. In my rookie way of seeing a strength of TF's steel, it does strike me
as impressive to have all the benefits of white steel (bite and ease of sharpening) plus retention from its hardness. Ultimately, temptation
to order directly was the weakness in the Yen. TF sells based on real time currency exchange rate. With shipping, purchase price was about 68%
of domestic price. Was it worth it? Really depends upon how I experience performance over time. It can go positive or negative, like a bite
size chip.
A less than desirable experience can happen just as easily when slumming in a low price all carbon line. I've been there too.
At this point, though, based on what could be a rather dramatic slide in quality control, I agree with the sentiment to not be
tempted on a TF particularly when there are so many other tempting choices out there. Plus, the weakness
in the yen has an increasingly higher probability of being over and I'm over the "coolness" of ordering direct. 
For all I know, it does cross my mind that foreign retailers consider us as easy mark.


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## designdog (Jan 29, 2015)

XooMG said:


> Pretty sure you are lucky, or have perception issues.



Let me say that none of my TF knives were purchased from TF directly, but from CKTG. So, if I am not lucky, tell me what I am not perceiving:
- I lay them on the board and they are all flat
- I have sharpened all three, some more than once now, with Jnats: synth 800, aoto, takashima, shobu, shinden suita
- no flat spots
- they look just like my other high end knives.

I do get that quality can suffer in some cases on direct from maker purchases. And past experience proves that not all vendors 100% inspect their knives closely - I have sent some back. Been involved with these knives for seven years now, so I pretty well know what I am talking about...


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