# How do you rate your sharpening skills?



## Bensbites (Jan 25, 2018)

I posted this on the CKTG forum, and the discussion has been quite interesting. 

I have always been able to sharpen a knife to the point where it cuts better than most of the people around me. I have recently gone deeper down the sharpening rabbit hole after a friend shipped me some knives to play with and his skills clearly exceed mine. I have made significant progress in the last few weeks, but I want to improve more. 

How does one benchmark their own skills?


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## inzite (Jan 25, 2018)

slice free hanging paper towel and not wedge much in thick dry carrots.


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## chinacats (Jan 25, 2018)

The less steel I have to remove to still put a smile on my face the better. I sharpen better than most anyone I know that's not a forum member but probably fall in the decent sharpener category among forumites with skill.

And I wouldn't believe anything i read at cktg anything...


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## K813zra (Jan 25, 2018)

chinacats said:


> The less steel I have to remove to still put a smile on my face the better. I sharpen better than most anyone I know that's not a forum member but probably fall in the decent sharpener category among forumites with skill.
> 
> And I wouldn't believe anything i read at cktg anything...



That seemed the gist of things over there as well.


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## panda (Jan 26, 2018)

does it cut food easy? no? keep going. yes? ok job done.

by that account my 'skills' are probably pretty low on the tier list.


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## tsuriru (Jan 26, 2018)

Right...


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 26, 2018)

Some things changed with time for me, like using less pressure to sharpen, using less stones in my progression, enjoying harder stones, no more bleeding fingers unless there is thinning involved, checking the edge more frequently in order to avoid big burrs (if you raise a big burr, then it will be harder to deburr), feeling with more ease when the edge is being hit, using the right stones for the task and as a consequence it is taking less time to achieve better results than before. On the other hand i see a lot of bevels with less then perfect thickness and i'm realising how unprecise my perception of very small burrs is.


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## Grunt173 (Jan 26, 2018)

My blade " will cut".:knife:


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## Matus (Jan 26, 2018)

I can sharpen knives better than 99.9% of the world's population cool: (so I assume). But within the comunity of people who use and sharpen Japanese kitchen knives for several years I would be found towards the end of the skill-line. I just do not do it often enough, sometimes struggle to get the edge burr-free on the first attempt. So I have a lot to improve upon. I also have alot to improve on the knoledge which stones to combine and how much to sharpen on each of them. Apparently to form a distinct burr with every stone in the progression may not yield the ultimate reachable edge sharpness & retention - or so it would seems the experienced of some around here would suggest. I am not there yet.

My knives are definitely sharp to give me a clean cut in my finger when I do not pay full attention while cutting :wink:


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## Godslayer (Jan 26, 2018)

I can get a knife scary sharp, my issue is sometimes I F up and get minor scratching on the blades face, saying this the other day I made a shibata so sharp my boss got giddy using my blade, so overall I'd say 2/10


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## RDalman (Jan 26, 2018)

Godslayer said:


> I can get a knife scary sharp, my issue is sometimes I F up and get minor scratching on the blades face, saying this the other day I made a shibata so sharp my boss got giddy using my blade, so overall I'd say 2/10



Not a f-up in my book. Scratches are part of maintaining geometry with stones. You'll have better cutting knives not fretting about that, thin as you go


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## tsuriru (Jan 26, 2018)

I still dont get why a relatively simple skill like sharpening knives and tools (albeit, a rapidly dying skill in modern society) is approached by so many with such trepidation, and elevated by others to a status or "an art" (see various references to the term "honemeister"). Sharpening is an acquired skill, simple to learn, and easy to correct. A knife can only be sharpened so much. Once it's sharpened - that is it - it's sharpened. Like any other manual skill it takes time and patience - but keep in mind that its not a race. Its not about how you "rate yourself" because how I or anyone else rate themselves is meaningless. Its about how well the knife performs once sharpened. and even then, it is not so much about sharpness, ones cutting skills or "knife skills" as they are sometime referred to come heavily into play - a different skill altogether. Not to mention what one can or cannot do in terms of cooking with his or her cutting skills. And that greatly depends on the cutting surface, the freshness of the ingredients, and a host of other parameters that have nothing to do with sharpening a knife. I rate myself 10/10 on the Tsuriru scale - but it's a very subjective and sliding scale


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## Godslayer (Jan 26, 2018)

RDalman said:


> Not a f-up in my book. Scratches are part of maintaining geometry with stones. You'll have better cutting knives not fretting about that, thin as you go



I know that, still makes me sad, I recently got a mirror polished damascus blade and let me tell you, every scratch cuts my soul lol


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## TheCaptain (Jan 26, 2018)

Godslayer said:


> I know that, still makes me sad, I recently got a mirror polished damascus blade and let me tell you, every scratch cuts my soul lol


If you figure a fix for this please let me know. I thin as I sharpen and use my dammy blades less than I'd like for this very reason.


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## Bensbites (Jan 26, 2018)

tsuriru said:


> I still dont get why a relatively simple skill like sharpening knives and tools (albeit, a rapidly dying skill in modern society) is approached by so many with such trepidation, and elevated by others to a status or "an art" (see various references to the term "honemeister"). Sharpening is an acquired skill, simple to learn, and easy to correct. A knife can only be sharpened so much. Once it's sharpened - that is it - it's sharpened. Like any other manual skill it takes time and patience - but keep in mind that its not a race. Its not about how you "rate yourself" because how I or anyone else rate themselves is meaningless. Its about how well the knife performs once sharpened. and even then, it is not so much about sharpness, ones cutting skills or "knife skills" as they are sometime referred to come heavily into play - a different skill altogether. Not to mention what one can or cannot do in terms of cooking with his or her cutting skills. And that greatly depends on the cutting surface, the freshness of the ingredients, and a host of other parameters that have nothing to do with sharpening a knife. I rate myself 10/10 on the Tsuriru scale - but it's a very subjective and sliding scale



I appreciate you more zen response. I figure if I want to improve, I need to know where I am skill wise and know where I can be. I dont know if any local fellow knifenuts. I have been shipping friends blades around the country and learning that way.


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## Matus (Jan 26, 2018)

TheCaptain said:


> If you figure a fix for this please let me know. I thin as I sharpen and use my dammy blades less than I'd like for this very reason.



Maybe one way to go about it is to only thin with a fine stone (or even medium-fine natural stone like Aizu), but do it more often. That will save you the coarse scratches from coarse stones if you thin less frequently. So while you will not have a polished blade, you would have a knife that would look acceptable.


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## aaamax (Jan 26, 2018)

TheCaptain said:


> If you figure a fix for this please let me know. I thin as I sharpen and use my dammy blades less than I'd like for this very reason.



Thin as usual in your whole progression, but take it higher in grit as in 6-8k at the minimum (jnat preferably) and then finger stones if you really want that final finishes. Truly doesn't take that long if you're taking your blade that high anyway.


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## K813zra (Jan 26, 2018)

tsuriru said:


> I still dont get why a relatively simple skill like sharpening knives and tools (albeit, a rapidly dying skill in modern society) is approached by so many with such trepidation, and elevated by others to a status or "an art" (see various references to the term "honemeister"). Sharpening is an acquired skill, simple to learn, and easy to correct. A knife can only be sharpened so much. Once it's sharpened - that is it - it's sharpened. Like any other manual skill it takes time and patience - but keep in mind that its not a race. Its not about how you "rate yourself" because how I or anyone else rate themselves is meaningless. Its about how well the knife performs once sharpened. and even then, it is not so much about sharpness, ones cutting skills or "knife skills" as they are sometime referred to come heavily into play - a different skill altogether. Not to mention what one can or cannot do in terms of cooking with his or her cutting skills. And that greatly depends on the cutting surface, the freshness of the ingredients, and a host of other parameters that have nothing to do with sharpening a knife. I rate myself 10/10 on the Tsuriru scale - but it's a very subjective and sliding scale



Get lost in the stone...It is fun. Muddy stones and kasumi finish. Yep, much more enjoyable than cutting up a carrot. If it is but a means to an end to some, I get that but to me the sharpening itself is the real hobby.  However, I agree and don't particularly care how I stack up to others as I sharpen for myself.


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## daveb (Jan 26, 2018)

The knives are (usually) sharper when I finish than when I start.


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## osakajoe (Jan 26, 2018)

daveb said:


> The knives are (usually) sharper when I finish than when I start.



Words that all should listen too.


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## StonedEdge (Jan 26, 2018)

Sharpening the very edge is one thing...thinning a funky geometry is a while different level of skill


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## osakajoe (Jan 26, 2018)

And sharpening or maintaining your knife is not art. Its a skill just like a mechanic on a car. As long as it runs well and gets you from A to B you did a good job.


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## chiffonodd (Jan 26, 2018)

Here's how I look at it. Yesterday, news broke that a team of scientists have identified a fossilized jawbone fragment recovered from a cave in northern Israel as belonging to an anatomically modern human who migrated out of Africa somewhere in the range of 200,000 years ago - far earlier than previously thought. The cave also contained numerous examples of stone tools.

My working assumption is that those tools were made with far more skill than I can muster when sharpening my knives. So, in essence, I would say that I am worse than a caveman


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## Khorax (Jan 26, 2018)

Bensbites said:


> How does one benchmark their own skills?



To rate is relative. One must rate it against something. 
Rate it against how the dull crap knife cut before? Well I'd say I would rate myself extremely high since the knife is 500% better than before. So 500/100.
Rate it against 100 random people on the street? I'd say my skills are likely better than all of them, making me the top 1%. So 1/100.
Rate it against unknown random people who spend hours day on a niche Jknife enthusiast forum? Probably the bottom 10%. So 10/100.
Now let's average those out ... hold on... *grabs abacus* ... subract that... square root... hold the 7... OK GOT IT. My skill is 5.11

Seriously though, here is my theory. Every time you get rabbit holed into a new hobby, you try to get better by yourself, which tends to plateau quickly. Then you want to find out more to get better. To find out more you reach out to others, by which you surround yourself by people that know more and are better than you, which does 2 things: 
1) you realise how little you know and how long you have to go. 
2) you realise how bad you are and how many more people are better than you. 

This crash of reality triggers 2 distinct waves of negative energy that needs to be overcome by your willingness to push through, or you drop it. You come to the realisation that if you want to get better on issue No 1, you have to educate yourself and gain knowledge. On issue No 2, you need to practice (properly) and gain skill. Or you could stagnate where you are if you are happy with your skill. Or you could walk away from it all. You then have an existential crisis in which you find yourself at a crossroad once you reach that stage and have to ask yourself: Is this worth it? Do I have time to invest in this? Am I interested/motivated enough to continue? 

When I first joined this forum and I started to understand how complex sharpening was, I was deterred by the new lingo, types of stones, stone names, forum etiquette, knife types, symmetry, asymmetry, double bevel, single bevel, wide bevel, polishing, thinning, finger stones (whatever the hell those are), wet/dry sandpaper, rehandles, knife balance, smiths, metals, honyaki, techniques... My first instinct was "well **** this". I walked away and just tried to keep getting my crappy henckles sharper on my 2 stones. I eventually got enough info on here to get to a point where I understood they need to meet at an apex and understand what a burr was... then my knifes were finally "sharp". And honestly I haven't really moved on from there that much. I decided that I don't have enough time in my life to gain all the knowledge I need to have and practice to make my knives 20% sharper. So I made a decision to hone the current skills that I have and will not be going deeper down this rabbit hole. I have to many other hobbies to get better at in my short time on this planet.

I will end this long rant for anyone who is still reading this with the work of Phychologist Noel Burch who describes the 4 stages of competence:
*Unconscious incompetence*
The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognize their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage. _The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn_ which is what I was saying above.
*Conscious incompetence*
Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, they recognize the deficit, as well as the value of a new skill in addressing the deficit. The making of mistakes can be integral to the learning process at this stage.
*Conscious competence*
The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires concentration. It may be broken down into steps, and there is heavy conscious involvement in executing the new skill.
*Unconscious competence*
The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result, the skill can be performed while executing another task. The individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned.

Perhaps a question would be, what stage of competence are you at right now?


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## K813zra (Jan 26, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> And sharpening or maintaining your knife is not art. Its a skill just like a mechanic on a car. As long as it runs well and gets you from A to B you did a good job.



However, if it does not pass inspection you have still failed or so local regulations state. :curse:


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## zetieum (Jan 26, 2018)

I test the sharpness on cute baby cats. Can the knife cut them in half? Is the fresh blood flooding enough for the incantations? If it passes those tests, it is hell sharp.


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## K813zra (Jan 26, 2018)

zetieum said:


> I test the sharpness on cute baby cats. Can the knife cut them in half? Is the fresh blood flooding enough for the incantations? If it passes those tests, it is hell sharp.



Then you need to live out here in farm country where people think it is a dumping ground for unwanted cats, by the dozen. :bigeek:


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## Grunt173 (Jan 26, 2018)

K813zra said:


> Then you need to live out here in farm country where people think it is a dumping ground for unwanted cats, by the dozen. :bigeek:



Boy,ain't that the truth.Welcome to my world.


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## inferno (Jan 26, 2018)

I have no idea how good i am as a sharpener, but I know what not to do at least, and I manage to get a good edge very fast on my knives. What more is needed here really?
I have a black belt in anglegrinding though and can perform a regular bypass operation using one.


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## Nemo (Jan 26, 2018)

chiffonodd said:


> Here's how I look at it. Yesterday, news broke that a team of scientists have identified a fossilized jawbone fragment recovered from a cave in northern Israel as belonging to an anatomically modern human who migrated out of Africa somewhere in the range of 200,000 years ago - far earlier than previously thought. The cave also contained numerous examples of stone tools.



How's the edge retention on those stone tools? &#128513;


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## cheflivengood (Jan 26, 2018)

You are starting to get really good at sharpening when you realize that everything is more important than the primary bevel.


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## StonedEdge (Jan 26, 2018)

cheflivengood said:


> You are starting to get really good at sharpening when you realize that everything is more important than the primary bevel.


This


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## Nomsdotcom (Jan 26, 2018)

Bensbites said:


> I posted this on the CKTG forum, and the discussion has been quite interesting.
> 
> I have always been able to sharpen a knife to the point where it cuts better than most of the people around me. I have recently gone deeper down the sharpening rabbit hole after a friend shipped me some knives to play with and his skills clearly exceed mine. I have made significant progress in the last few weeks, but I want to improve more.
> 
> How does one benchmark their own skills?


I figure it's a bit useless to rate myself against others skills at the moment. If my own potential is all I'm rating on, (a 10 being absolute almost impossible prefection) I'd think I'm at a 2-3. My angle control is not nearly what I'd like it to be, I'm also not overly comfortable thinning knives. 
I mostly use the basic sharpness tests to determine the consistency of my results. Beyond that, it's all about food based tests. If after going through my progression, my knife can preform all the tasks I put it through at work... I think I did my job. Could every other forum member do better? Probabaly [emoji13] 


I'd suggest getting some project knives, perhaps a good but cheap stone and going to town. As long as you check your results, and know what you are looking to achieve, all you need is the muscle memory that will improve with time. [emoji106]


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## inferno (Jan 26, 2018)

cheflivengood said:


> You are starting to get really good at sharpening when you realize that everything is more important than the primary bevel.



this is also why sharpmakers have 2 angles


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## Badgertooth (Jan 26, 2018)

TheCaptain said:


> If you figure a fix for this please let me know. I thin as I sharpen and use my dammy blades less than I'd like for this very reason.



Im yet to do the dunk with ferric chloride. But apparently that about the only way


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## Badgertooth (Jan 26, 2018)

K813zra said:


> Get lost in the stone...It is fun. Muddy stones and kasumi finish. Yep, much more enjoyable than cutting up a carrot. If it is but a means to an end to some, I get that but to me the sharpening itself is the real hobby.  However, I agree and don't particularly care how I stack up to others as I sharpen for myself.



Im just letting Kip speak for me from now on.


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## jimbob (Jan 26, 2018)

I thought I was going good. Then a honyaki in a passaround from huw (von blewitt) put me in my place!


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## inferno (Jan 26, 2018)

How so?


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## jimbob (Jan 26, 2018)

Reckons he tried a new deburring technique, whatever he did, i cant imagine a gyuto being sharper...


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## Badgertooth (Jan 26, 2018)

Step change for me was this technique at 4:30

https://youtu.be/I_--p26JO54


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## K813zra (Jan 26, 2018)

Badgertooth said:


> Step change for me was this technique at 4:30
> 
> https://youtu.be/I_--p26JO54



Leading on one side and trailing on the other? Is that what you mean? Dude...I can never get over the sound of that stone.


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## jimbob (Jan 26, 2018)

Likewise. I can never help myself and take it to a too high grit stone. And chromium oxide stropping. First world problem


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## dwalker (Jan 26, 2018)

K813zra said:


> Leading on one side and trailing on the other? Is that what you mean? Dude...I can never get over the sound of that stone.


I think what he is doing is establishing an opposing scratch pattern on each side of the blade. The angle of approach is what is important in this technique, not edge leading/trailing. I do this as well with good result.


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## K813zra (Jan 26, 2018)

dwalker said:


> I think what he is doing is establishing an opposing scratch pattern on each side of the blade. The angle of approach is what is important in this technique, not edge leading/trailing. I do this as well with good result.



Right, got it. I do this unintentionally, lol.


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## Dave Martell (Jan 26, 2018)

You suck at sharpening until...








I'm off to CKTG forum to see how Ken rates himself...


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## inferno (Jan 26, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> You suck at sharpening until...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


is "ken" a true jedi?


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## Panamapeet (Jan 26, 2018)

TheCaptain said:


> If you figure a fix for this please let me know. I thin as I sharpen and use my dammy blades less than I'd like for this very reason.



I guess thin a bit more so you don't have to thin every time you sharpen, sandpaper and etch/fingerstones. Repeat after x amount of sharpenings


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 26, 2018)

I can get stuff to shave, and can get it to either have little enough wire edge to survive some board contact, or a clean enough wire edge to be stroppable for some time. Quickly and efficiently? No. Sometimes managing to actually dull stuff on the 13K or coti? Yeah. And I'd only call myself a pro grade sharpener ever if I could restore every common finish cleanly after thinning. I'd actually love to trade in knives professionally - but unless I'll ever master that one, no.


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## chiffonodd (Jan 26, 2018)

Nemo said:


> How's the edge retention on those stone tools? &#128513;



Not bad for flint :spin chair: Fit and finish however . . .


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## daveb (Jan 26, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> I'm off to CKTG forum to see how Ken rates himself...




Is that what he calls it?


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## Dave Martell (Jan 26, 2018)

daveb said:


> Is that what he calls it?




He's a MasterRater


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## Phip (Jan 26, 2018)

Thats pretty funny, Dave.


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## Phip (Jan 26, 2018)

10 years and I find most kitchen knives pretty easy to sharpen. Sharper than most surgeons scalpels I imagine. I still struggle with a thick bladed hunting knife.


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## daveb (Jan 26, 2018)

I find hunting knives easy to put an edge on but more difficult to make good cutters. Thin, thin, thin, sharpen, thin, thin, thin


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## ThEoRy (Jan 27, 2018)

I make shiny things get cutty cutty.


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## rickbern (Jan 27, 2018)

I just sharpened a gesshin Uraku Santoku that I keep around for certain things I think it does better than my gyuto. As is my habit, I tested the edge by cutting thin slices out of a thick carrot. Of course, this is not like slicing a newspaper, the end result is edible.

I tasted it and said, "damn, that carrot tastes so much better when I cut it with a freshly sharpened knife".

That's the rating I give myself, as long as the food tastes better, then you're doing good.

Rick


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## ThEoRy (Jan 27, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> You suck at sharpening until...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well first he has to strop himself on 7 levels of nano paper then he places himself under an LX500 trinocular LED fluorescence microscope with a lumenera 1.4 mega pixel CCD camera. Then he compares the images against a soft X-ray emission spectrograph based on variable line spacing (VLS) gratings to work in the soft X-ray and deep UV (the M edge of transition metals) regime. Only then will he be able to fully gauge how incredibly terrible he is.


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## K813zra (Jan 27, 2018)

ThEoRy said:


> Well first he has to strop himself on 7 levels of nano paper then he places himself under an LX500 trinocular LED fluorescence microscope with a lumenera 1.4 mega pixel CCD camera. Then he compares the images against a soft X-ray emission spectrograph based on variable line spacing (VLS) gratings to work in the soft X-ray and deep UV (the M edge of transition metals) regime. Only then will he be able to fully gauge how incredibly terrible he is.



I believe the answer is goat's milk cheese. Or was that not a question. I feel like I can not follow...

:justkidding:


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## Dave Martell (Jan 27, 2018)

ThEoRy said:


> Well first he has to strop himself on 7 levels of nano paper then he places himself under an LX500 trinocular LED fluorescence microscope with a lumenera 1.4 mega pixel CCD camera. Then he compares the images against a soft X-ray emission spectrograph based on variable line spacing (VLS) gratings to work in the soft X-ray and deep UV (the M edge of transition metals) regime. Only then will he be able to fully gauge how incredibly terrible he is.




Pretty much spot on!


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## daveb (Jan 27, 2018)

I think you've confused Ken with Cliff. Just add the neutron microscope camera - and talk r e a l s l o w . . . .


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## zitangy (Jan 27, 2018)

Mastery.... its always a WIP and I am getting there

Sharpening
Aim is to assess a knife, determine a)how much steel needs to be removed and b)where and do it within 5 minutes with the wide array of stones available; no burrs as it is a testament of an overshoot and reach the ultimate apex given the thinness of the last 3mm on the edge. I do forgive myself it there is an overshoot at 1000 grit. And of course .. the longest edge retention possible given the regular use.

Polishing.... takes up too much time

For a quick touch ups.. under 2 minutes as lighter pressure is applied..


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## Taramonia (Jan 28, 2018)

I mean I don't know how to rate myself. I probably take way too long, but then again when I finally get around to it I find it very relaxing. It's also pretty hard for me to visually inspect the edge because of focus issues. I guarantee when I'm done though the edge is good, it cuts things, and lasts a while. I am a bit curious how I "stack up" as it were. I never did ask TheCaptain how the edge held up through shipping on the passaround knife.


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## HRC_64 (Jan 28, 2018)

If you can micro-plane with your edge, eg citrus zests, 
that is a good real-world sharpness level. 

It is cost effective, repeatable, and has a good range
of sharpness/differentiation.

Furthermore, the zests off cut are relatively low volume,
and easy to recycle or find a useful use for


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## Salty dog (Jan 29, 2018)

All these years and we're still picking on Ken.


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## TheCaptain (Jan 29, 2018)

Taramonia said:


> I mean I don't know how to rate myself.. I never did ask TheCaptain how the edge held up through shipping on the passaround knife.



The edge was in good shape when I got it. Like you, I'd almost say I'm more into sharpening than my knives. 

It held up well in my limited tests. Sweet will cut! [emoji13]


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## tsuriru (Jan 29, 2018)

Salty dog said:


> All these years and we're still picking on Ken.



Not surprising really, when I think about it.


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## LucasFur (Jan 29, 2018)

Bensbites said:


> I posted this on the CKTG forum, and the discussion has been quite interesting.
> 
> I have always been able to sharpen a knife to the point where it cuts better than most of the people around me. I have recently gone deeper down the sharpening rabbit hole after a friend shipped me some knives to play with and his skills clearly exceed mine. I have made significant progress in the last few weeks, but I want to improve more.
> 
> How does one benchmark their own skills?



Only people that i have met better than I are Jude, Jon, and Jeremy. And each has had a sacrificial knife where they have thinned too much, sharpened too acute, and generally ruined a knife to know what to look out for and to get the most out of their knives. I have not ruined a knife yet, soon, soon though. 

Fun thought, Some sharpening markers or "check points" you need to experience. 
*Double edged knife Edition* 
0. Understanding that sharpening/ polishing is a removal process. 
1. Make a truely sharp edge, Micro-bevel allowed, (insert cutting paper test) 
2. Create a perfectly even bevel on both sides. (able to hold constant angle, understanding Burrs) 
3. Make a exceptionally sharp edge with no mico-bevel. (insert bob kramer round magazine paper cut test // Cutting paper towel) ( able to hold very acute angle, able to "touch up a knife" on finishing stone easily) 
4.Thin a knife, make it better then what it was by a significant margin while keeping its original proportions. Polish it to a mirror (compounds allowed) / Level 4.5 polish with Finger stones 
5. Fix something Damaged on your knife, wonky steering issues, Tip, Grind problems, etc. (knife assessment and knowledge to enhance properly) 
6. Create a fantastically even finish on both sides of a wide bevel (beta Togi)
7. Fix steel road on wide bevel so its straight no waves. (see Kiriba / Shinogi Line) & polish Hamaguri edge so its even through out the blade. 
8. Make Finger stones/ polish Japanese style (3 ways) / Slice a pig in one swipe. 
9. Able to do ALL the above. 
10. Able to ALL the above blind-folded, on touch alone. 

-I'm probably around 4.


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## Badgertooth (Jan 29, 2018)

7 is hard


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## HRC_64 (Jan 29, 2018)

somewhere in there needs to be convexing the edge properly


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## Paraffin (Jan 29, 2018)

I'm about a 3.5 on Lucasfur's scale above. I do want to eventually get good at thinning, and may never climb higher on the scale than that.

One thing... I'm not sure I'd put #5 that high, or maybe repairs and tweaks just covers too many things. I've been able to fix an underground, prominent heel on a VG10 kiritsuke so the rear part of the profile was flat instead of slightly convex against the board. That's not a difficult job. I've straightened a tip that arrived slightly bent sideways on a carbon clad AS steel gyuto (scary, but it ended up being easy). Other repairs or adjustments like fixing steering, or going from a 50/50 to asymmetric bevel would rate higher than simple repairs.


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## KJDedge (Jan 29, 2018)

I rate myself as simply the BEST of anyone I know.....
Primarily because i don't know anyone else who sharpens with stones....


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## Bensbites (Jan 29, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> Only people that i have met better than I are Jude, Jon, and Jeremy. And each has had a sacrificial knife where they have thinned too much, sharpened too acute, and generally ruined a knife to know what to look out for and to get the most out of their knives. I have not ruined a knife yet, soon, soon though.
> 
> Fun thought, Some sharpening markers or "check points" you need to experience.
> *Double edged knife Edition*
> ...



Thank you, one of the responses


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## brooksie967 (Jan 29, 2018)

Badgertooth said:


> 7 is hard



7 is stupid hard; especially when the knife geometry isn't spot on. If it isn't then no matter what you do you're not fixing it properly.


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## LucasFur (Jan 30, 2018)

Paraffin said:


> I'm about a 3.5 on Lucasfur's scale above. I do want to eventually get good at thinning, and may never climb higher on the scale than that.
> 
> One thing... I'm not sure I'd put #5 that high, or maybe repairs and tweaks just covers too many things. I've been able to fix an underground, prominent heel on a VG10 kiritsuke so the rear part of the profile was flat instead of slightly convex against the board. That's not a difficult job. I've straightened a tip that arrived slightly bent sideways on a carbon clad AS steel gyuto (scary, but it ended up being easy). Other repairs or adjustments like fixing steering, or going from a 50/50 to asymmetric bevel would rate higher than simple repairs.



Yea, I kind of wrote that as a preliminary draft. Maybe inspiring somebody to really put thoughts into a definitive scale. Then we can have a self assessment chart that goes with the knife recommendation page. I wanted to make it so that "sharpening" was relatively low on the graph, because i feel its actually the easiest part. 

I suppose there could be some variation in the grades. you can also be able to do 1,2,6 not 3, 4, 5 . etc. 



brooksie967 said:


> 7 is stupid hard; especially when the knife geometry isn't spot on. If it isn't then no matter what you do you're not fixing it properly.



Im sure there are some masters that could do it. And if not they could fix the knife geometry.


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## TheCaptain (Jan 30, 2018)

KJDedge said:


> I rate myself as simply the BEST of anyone I know.....
> Primarily because i don't know anyone else who sharpens with stones....



+1. Except for fellow forum members (which I'm probably at the bottom of the food chain, skill wise) I'm the only one who really takes sharpening my knives seriously.

A friend had me sharpen some of her German stainless. I'm actually starting to like doing those (I know some here hate them). Got them nice and sharp. She apparently liked them so much, but didn't want to ask me to do more, so she took a few other dull ones to the local Sur La Table to get sharpened. Compared those to what I did and asked me to finish the job anyway.

So I'm at least better than whatever they do at Sur La Table. Which I'm going to say is not a very high bar obviously. :doublethumbsup:


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## K813zra (Jan 30, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> Only people that i have met better than I are Jude, Jon, and Jeremy. And each has had a sacrificial knife where they have thinned too much, sharpened too acute, and generally ruined a knife to know what to look out for and to get the most out of their knives. I have not ruined a knife yet, soon, soon though.
> 
> Fun thought, Some sharpening markers or "check points" you need to experience.
> *Double edged knife Edition*
> ...



That is an interesting scale. I am comfortably a 4.5 but partially into 5. I have had to fix a few knives that I have "tipped". The first one turned out meh and I had to go back to it later but the most recent one I think I like better than before it was even broken...lol. I have not really had the chance to play with steering issues etc though.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 30, 2018)

"I am only an egg."


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## K813zra (Jan 30, 2018)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> "I am only an egg."



I always say I am a fledgling but if you are an egg then I have doubts about that. I am still a thought...lol. Seriously, if you were an egg in my chicken coop you might be frozen and cracked this morning.


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## chinacats (Jan 30, 2018)

Egg=1 of the best sharpeners on KKF


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## Grunt173 (Jan 30, 2018)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> "I am only an egg."



Hey,I like that.That's a good one.lol


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## K813zra (Jan 30, 2018)

Oops. Okay so I can be a bit slow at times. Ignore me. :laugh:


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## nutmeg (Feb 5, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> Only people that i have met better than I are Jude, Jon, and Jeremy. And each has had a sacrificial knife where they have thinned too much, sharpened too acute, and generally ruined a knife to know what to look out for and to get the most out of their knives. I have not ruined a knife yet, soon, soon though.
> 
> Fun thought, Some sharpening markers or "check points" you need to experience.
> *Double edged knife Edition*
> ...



I would add:
11. Able to all the above with eyes wide open &#128521;

Yes, 7 is hard: the only point that needs more skills than patience.


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## osakajoe (Feb 5, 2018)

You need to get rid of 10 on that list or edit that. 

1) its dangerous. 
2) if you actually knew how to do most of those, especially 5 & 7, youd know you NEED to look at what you are doing often. 

Id add an 11 to the list. Doesnt even involve a knife. Now this you do blind folded or eyes closed. Get a Kleenex tissue pinch with two fingers and glide off to feel the width. Then have some on fold it in half and repeat. If you can tell the difference in width you have the ability to become a decent sharpener


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## HRC_64 (Feb 5, 2018)

I like this osaka joe ... take it to #11 
... level of mastery.


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## osakajoe (Feb 5, 2018)

That was the test given to me by the knife craftsmen who I am apprenticing under in Sakai. At the time I knew why and the meaning behind it but only now know fully and understand just how damn important is


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## JBroida (Feb 5, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> That was the test given to me by the knife craftsmen who I am apprenticing under in Sakai. At the time I knew why and the meaning behind it but only now know fully understand just how damn important is



its so true... training your eyes and hands to see and feel things is one of the most importand things you can do


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## chinacats (Feb 5, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> You need to get rid of 10 on that list or edit that.
> 
> 1) its dangerous.
> 2) if you actually knew how to do most of those, especially 5 & 7, youd know you NEED to look at what you are doing often.
> ...





JBroida said:


> its so true... training your eyes and hands to see and feel things is one of the most importand things you can do



So glad to see some of the pros offer their insight here...

..I'm obviously no pro but would also add that I find sound to be almost equally important to my sharpening.


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## nutmeg (Feb 5, 2018)

In Germany we say Trust is good but Control is better&#128584;&#128585;&#128300;


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## zitangy (Feb 5, 2018)

JBroida said:


> its so true... training your eyes and hands to see and feel things is one of the most importand things you can do



Most people just use their eyes.. as their main input or feedback source. I noticed that those who excells in their field of endeavour ,instinctly.. use all their 5 senses whenever possible. The better ones hv 2 or 3 senses heightened... Some only use their eyes only.. and it is indeed tragic.... when they look but do not see..., touch but cannot or do not feel....

Generally...a heightened sense of touch/ feel.. or any of yr senses which can be developed over time... gives you an advantage in anything yu do.... so feel it

Just my observations...


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## osakajoe (Feb 5, 2018)

chinacats said:


> I find sound to be almost equally important to my sharpening.



Yes! Sound Is also super important.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 5, 2018)

chinacats said:


> I find sound to be almost equally important to my sharpening.



This is an interesting comment, care to elaborate more...
eg, on 'ways to use the sound' to listen to the edge?

cheers


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## panda (Feb 5, 2018)

you want to hear consistent sound, not change pitch or loudness.


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## Barclid (Feb 6, 2018)

I, too, would rate my sharpening ability better than most people that I know but on the middle to low end of forum members. Seems every time I think I master something, I notice something else I need to work on. But that's at least half the fun of sharpening.


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## nutmeg (Feb 6, 2018)

You listen/feel the vibrations on metal. This helps for .1 or 3. for exemple.

But ears lie, our memory can not remember accurately what you did the whole last minute. 
I guess only eyes comes to control. The time stopped, you can watch the whole blade. And you can see the sum of the vibrations that came on the blade.




I use to design hi-fi turntables, these are like vibration machines to sum up.
Sometimes we did modifications based on the listening sessions only without measure, they often failed or made us lose much time.


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## ian (Feb 6, 2018)

zitangy said:


> Most people just use their eyes.. as their main input or feedback source. I noticed that those who excells in their field of endeavour ,instinctly.. use all their 5 senses whenever possible. The better ones hv 2 or 3 senses heightened... Some only use their eyes only.. and it is indeed tragic.... when they look but do not see..., touch but cannot or do not feel....
> 
> Generally...a heightened sense of touch/ feel.. or any of yr senses which can be developed over time... gives you an advantage in anything yu do.... so feel it
> 
> Just my observations...



This. For consistent results, it's important to have the same amount/thickness of slurry on your stone when you start with a knife. While you can read the slurry tactilely, or by sight, I find it's more accurate to taste it. Your tongue is more sensitive than your fingers in this kind of situation. I usually try to aim for a texture that's like a thick cream of mushroom soup (where the mushrooms were just picked and not cleaned of the grit), blended in a vitamix for 20 seconds.


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## Mucho Bocho (Feb 6, 2018)

I'm going to assume that Ian is making a parody here.



ianbiringer said:


> This. For consistent results, it's important to have the same amount/thickness of slurry on your stone when you start with a knife. While you can read the slurry tactilely, or by sight, I find it's more accurate to taste it. Your tongue is more sensitive than your fingers in this kind of situation. I usually try to aim for a texture that's like a thick cream of mushroom soup (where the mushrooms were just picked and not cleaned of the grit), blended in a vitamix for 20 seconds.


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## nutmeg (Feb 6, 2018)

tasting the burr and removing it with the tongue is also a big classical.


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## chinacats (Feb 6, 2018)

nutmeg said:


> tasting the burr and removing it with the tongue is also a big classical.



But the ultimate test is can you tie a knot in the burr using only your tongue?


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## Paraffin (Feb 6, 2018)

panda said:


> you want to hear consistent sound, not change pitch or loudness.



Thanks, this is a more useful tip (at my level of experience anyway) than listening for a _particular_ sound. My carbon steel knives sound different on the stones than the ones with PM steels, and blade size can affect this too. But a consistent sound during the sharpening is something I can aim for. 

I've also been working on a progression from heavier pressure to lighter strokes on each stone, in three discrete steps. There is a change in volume there, but again I can aim for consistent sound at each pressure level.


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## chinacats (Feb 6, 2018)

panda said:


> you want to hear consistent sound, not change pitch or loudness.



Also, the sound will change when you begin to hit the edge. Eventually you'll use multiple senses together...if the sound changes then look and feel...you'll begin to notice how all your senses tell you what is happening.

Parrafin, I'd work on light, lighter and almost no pressure...save heavy pressure for after you develop your touch.


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## Paraffin (Feb 6, 2018)

chinacats said:


> Parrafin, I'd work on light, lighter and almost no pressure...save heavy pressure for after you develop your touch.



Right, I wasn't clear with that. The "heavier pressure to lighter strokes" starts with fairly light pressure. And yeah, almost none at the end.


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## K813zra (Feb 6, 2018)

People talk about using all senses in sharpening. Well, I used to smoke and as a consequence I would take a 'smoke break', which in turn led to having stone mud on my filter and I can assure you that taste is not a part of sharpening that I intend to expand upon. Most natural stones smell fairly good in use but taste does not seem to follow suit. (It was Monzen-to mud for those curious...)

So folks, wash your hands before and after your smoke break!


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## panda (Feb 6, 2018)

gives you heightened sharpening awareness if you snort dried up slurry.


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## Nemo (Feb 6, 2018)

panda said:


> gives you heightened sharpening awareness if you snort dried up slurry.


I had assumed it would make you stoned &#128513;.


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## panda (Feb 6, 2018)

only if you smoke the powder


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## Mucho Bocho (Feb 6, 2018)

Nice play Nemo



Nemo said:


> I had assumed it would make you stoned &#128513;.


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## K813zra (Feb 6, 2018)

panda said:


> gives you heightened sharpening awareness if you snort dried up slurry.



Is that the next tide pod challenge?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 6, 2018)

I certainly found that unless you have an EXTREMELY sturdy table or bench to work on, making a sharpening pond that you can comfortably use cross legged ON THE FLOOR has more benefits than just hipster credit


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## Grunt173 (Feb 6, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I certainly found that unless you have an EXTREMELY sturdy table or bench to work on, making a sharpening pond that you can comfortably use cross legged ON THE FLOOR has more benefits than just hipster credit



If I sat cross legged on the floor to sharpen a knife,when I got done,somebody would have to help me up.I'll leave that kind of stuff for Kevin at Korin.:wink:


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 6, 2018)

My point was, the floor is much more unlikely to rock with the stone and bash the stone back into your edge than the average tabletop...


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## Grunt173 (Feb 6, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> My point was, the floor is much more unlikely to rock with the stone and bash the stone back into your edge than the average tabletop...



I figured as much.


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## K813zra (Feb 6, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I certainly found that unless you have an EXTREMELY sturdy table or bench to work on, making a sharpening pond that you can comfortably use cross legged ON THE FLOOR has more benefits than just hipster credit



Yeah, my island does not move...I would never get back off the floor if I sat like that.


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## daveb (Feb 6, 2018)

Grunt173 said:


> If I sat cross legged on the floor to sharpen a knife,when I got done,somebody would have to help me up.I'll leave that kind of stuff for Kevin at Korin.:wink:



Ha! I've fallen and I can't get up...


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## Mucho Bocho (Feb 7, 2018)

More like Ive sharpened and I cant get up


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## Nemo (Feb 7, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> More like Ive sharpened and I cant get up


I must admit that I took this post out of context the first time I read it :confused emoji:


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## zetieum (Feb 7, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> Only people that i have met better than I are Jude, Jon, and Jeremy. And each has had a sacrificial knife where they have thinned too much, sharpened too acute, and generally ruined a knife to know what to look out for and to get the most out of their knives. I have not ruined a knife yet, soon, soon though.
> 
> Fun thought, Some sharpening markers or "check points" you need to experience.
> *Double edged knife Edition*
> ...



Fantastic post. Thx


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 7, 2018)

@zetieum maybe it is a matter of accepting "OK, what I done to that knife leaves it in that and that usable state, with a caveat. Let's use it until next sharpening is due. It might be thick, I shall mince. It might be too thin, I shall draw slice. Sharpen, repeat."


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## boomchakabowwow (Feb 15, 2018)

i still have the phone number of the guy that shows up in a van to sharpen knives.  just in case.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 15, 2018)

boomchakabowwow said:


> i still have the phone number of the guy that shows up in a van to sharpen knives.  just in case.



TFW Bob Kramer 



> Kramer has been approached by dozens of professional chefs ...mostly during his six-year stint as a knife sharpenera business he once operated out of the back of an old bread truck.


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## boomchakabowwow (Feb 16, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> TFW Bob Kramer



haha.

coincidentally, it is a Kramer youtube video that really helped me sharpen. he is the ONLY guy that i found that talked about how hard you press the knife down onto the stone. IIRC: 3lbs.

he even mentioned pushing down on a kitchen scale to get the feel of what 3lbs feels like. it was a turning point for me, for sure.


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## harlock0083 (Feb 16, 2018)

boomchakabowwow said:


> haha.
> 
> coincidentally, it is a Kramer youtube video that really helped me sharpen. he is the ONLY guy that i found that talked about how hard you press the knife down onto the stone. IIRC: 3lbs.
> 
> he even mentioned pushing down on a kitchen scale to get the feel of what 3lbs feels like. it was a turning point for me, for sure.



I've watched so many I've lost track, but JKI has probably the best ones that I've seen since Jon actually teaches in those videos. Most videos is just silence and someone sharpening on a stone.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 16, 2018)

Talking kitchen scales: Anyone got a BESS tester yet?


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## K813zra (Feb 16, 2018)

harlock0083 said:


> I've watched so many I've lost track, but JKI has probably the best ones that I've seen since Jon actually teaches in those videos. Most videos is just silence and someone sharpening on a stone.



I too like Jon's videos. Chatting with him via email and on the phone has always proven most helpful too! That aside, I also found Peter Nowland's videos to be helpful. Specifically due to the talk of pressure control.


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## Ruso (Feb 20, 2018)

Top 1%. However, on Knife Sharpening Olympics I would be that Mexican fella who finished dead last in 15Km cross country race.


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## Chef Doom (Feb 20, 2018)

K813zra said:


> I too like Jon's videos. Chatting with him via email and on the phone has always proven most helpful too! That aside, I also found Peter Nowland's videos to be helpful. Specifically due to the talk of pressure control.



We should convince Jon to grow a beard and make some sharpening videos shirtless so that we can attract more women to the knife forum. Splash a little baby oil on those biceps and do 40 quick pushups to get the muscles popped and ready and we are good to go.


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## JBroida (Feb 20, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> We should convince Jon to grow a beard and make some sharpening videos shirtless so that we can attract more women to the knife forum. Splash a little baby oil on those biceps and do 40 quick pushups to get the muscles popped and ready and we are good to go.



Someone ban this guy [emoji13]

Plus you know I have a beard and I would do 100 push-ups, but Id still be hairy AF


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 22, 2018)

Body hair is edge testing capital.


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## zetieum (Feb 22, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Body hair is edge testing capital.



best thing I read in weeks


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## K813zra (Feb 22, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Body hair is edge testing capital.



Until you run out. I still like to use my fingernail for a quick test. Other than that it is food that is the real test, for me.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 22, 2018)

cuts in food require displacement of mass and
geometrical contouring (curves), 

These require different edge geometries 
than maximally razor like or tbe, etc


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## K813zra (Feb 22, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> cuts in food require displacement of mass and
> geometrical contouring (curves),
> 
> These require different edge geometries
> than maximally razor like or tbe, etc



Well, I think most of us intend to cut food with our knives. Though, I sometimes wonder about that...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 22, 2018)

HRC64 unless you are talking about foods like the modern supermarket tomato, which is a liquid shipped in a packaging that is edible but hard to cut open cleanly, and stabilized by a length of rope down the middle.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 22, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> HRC64 unless you are talking about foods like the modern supermarket tomato, which is a liquid shipped in a packaging that is edible but hard to cut open cleanly, and stabilized by a length of rope down the middle.




lol i agree on your descriptions of tomato


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## K813zra (Feb 22, 2018)

Idk, our supermarket tomatoes are really hard and have a sandy texture inside. No taste either. Growing season is around the corner though!


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## Grunt173 (Feb 22, 2018)

Lol,our tomatoes around here are hard and light red,no taste,just hard and light red.I am looking forward to my garden this year.


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## Chef Doom (Feb 23, 2018)

K813zra said:


> Idk, our supermarket tomatoes are really hard and have a sandy texture inside. No taste either. Growing season is around the corner though!


Not to mention the farms that supply supermarkets grow for shipping and looks, not for taste or texture.


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## Chef Doom (Feb 23, 2018)

JBroida said:


> Someone ban this guy [emoji13]
> 
> Plus you know I have a beard and I would do 100 push-ups, but Id still be hairy AF


You need a long hipster beard that requires a beard come.

After spending half of a semester in film school the trick is to do two series of films. One will be for the hair lovers, the second set will be for the bikini wax lovers. This will allow us to grab all markets.


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