# Getting STRESSED-new car!



## sudsy9977 (May 22, 2020)

My wife wants to buy a new car. Getting so stressed. I have two cars to either trade in or sell too. I’m dyin over here! Ryan


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## ma_sha1 (May 22, 2020)

My friend got great deal selling at car max, better than trade in.


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## sudsy9977 (May 22, 2020)

I have one of those car cash places right by my house. Figured it can’t hurt to see what they offer me. I really don’t want to do a private sale. Ryan


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## bahamaroot (May 23, 2020)

I've been searching for a new truck for the last week. I don't really need one now but the deals are so good I hate to pass them up because I will definitely want to buy in a couple years anyway. My truck is 18 yrs old but still in good shape with low miles but stuff has to start falling apart sooner or later. Vehicle buying has always been stressful to me, that's why I'm driving an 18 yr old truck.


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## ma_sha1 (May 23, 2020)

Gas efficiencies & technologies features make it worth getting a new one. 

Silly features like back heater, steering wheel heater are becoming standard, something you won’t be able to let go once experienced it.


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## AT5760 (May 23, 2020)

Depending on the age of the car, CarMax and similar places may be 15-20% lower than dealers. Both of our last two trade ins, we did substantially better through the dealer than CarMax.


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## Bensbites (May 23, 2020)

AT5760 said:


> Depending on the age of the car, CarMax and similar places may be 15-20% lower than dealers. Both of our last two trade ins, we did substantially better through the dealer than CarMax.


Interesting, while I have limited experience, it was the exact opposite.


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## AT5760 (May 23, 2020)

I imagine it varies a ton: location, condition, vehicle, etc. Not knocking CarMax, just recommending shopping around.


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## boomchakabowwow (May 23, 2020)

are the cars desirable? yours? For example; Is one of them a Pontiac Aztec? 

I think private sales are your best bet to get more seed money for the next rig.

my wife and I both could use a new vehicle. Both are similar mileage and vintage. Not smart getting ourselves into this situation. But screw it, no new purchase in the near future. Not in these economic muddy waters.

we haven’t had a car payment since 2008. We’ve gotten accustomed to that freedom.


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## sudsy9977 (May 23, 2020)

So I have a 2013 Mercedes gl suv. A 2006 sl 500 , a 2007 Ford Edge , and a 2006 bmw 525. They all suck. For one reason or another. I would consider keeping the sl convertible because it’s pretty nice and reliable. The edge sucks. I hate it. I would never buy a Ford again probably just because of that car. I’m thinking maybe a Subaru crosstrek or Impreza.


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## boomchakabowwow (May 23, 2020)

I’m lucky. I drive a 2006 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 and my wife has a 2005 Subaru Forester. I can’t say the Subaru has been trouble free ( the top end needed to be rebuilt). But it’s solid now.

im gonna ride this for as long as I can before we buy. I do however think it’s a pretty good time to shop now. My wife dones want a new Toyota RAV4 hybrid since her Subaru is turbocharped and runs super unleaded. Gets 21 mpg


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## Keith Sinclair (May 26, 2020)

Those turbo Foresters with manual trans. already are somewhat of a hot idem. I was checking them online all were already sold at many diff. sites. For good coin. You cannot even get a manual Forester in the US anymore. Stopped making them couple yrs. ago.

Janice has a regular 2007 with auto trans. It sucks engine races & kind of jerks into gear. If trying to get up speed on ramp etc. Been told that they have better auto trans. in newer models. 

Have a 2009 Honda with short throw stick shift. It is fun to drive. 

Was checking out Honda S2000 online. They hold value pretty good compared to other sports or supercars that lose a ton of value over 10 yrs. Modern day Jags cost big bucks you can buy them 10 yrs. later for nothing. 

S2000 made 10 years 1999-2009 many were run hard on tracks. Think lower milage good examples will become collectable in the future.


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## LostHighway (May 26, 2020)

When we lived in Maine I had a great (independent) mechanic who I very much miss as he was scrupulously honest and cheaper than anyone competent I've found in the Minneapolis metro area. His take on newer cars was buy a Honda or a Toyota/Lexus. Maine roads are heavily dominated by domestic pickups, Subarus, and Toyota Prius (he won't work on hybrids). He had few positive things to say about either Subarus or domestics but he rated Ford as the least bad domestic marque. His take on both BMWs and M-B was that they are fine when they are new but you don't want to hang on to them too long out of warranty unless you absolutely love the car and are prepared to absorb the maintenance.


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## boomchakabowwow (May 26, 2020)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Those turbo Foresters with manual trans. already are somewhat of a hot idem. I was checking them online all were already sold at many diff. sites. For good coin. You cannot even get a manual Forester in the US anymore. Stopped making them couple yrs. ago.
> 
> Janice has a regular 2007 with auto trans. It sucks engine races & kind of jerks into gear. If trying to get up speed on ramp etc. Been told that they have better auto trans. in newer models.
> 
> ...



true. we get asked by some random kid every often if we want to sell it. my wife is super desirable. it is white with black leather interior. the stick shift is a nice change when i drive her car.


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## gregfisk (May 26, 2020)

I had a 1999 Ford Expedition I put 176,000 on. Bought it new as a business vehicle when I owned my company. The only thing I ever had to do to it was change oil and brakes and a couple of batteries. The rig was bulletproof. Before that rig all my cars were Toyota’s or Lexus which I’m a big fan of. I now have a Ford F-150 Platinum which I love but I don’t think it’s going to hold up like the Expedition. My wife has a Toyota Sequoia that’s been very reliable as well. We don’t buy new cars often because they are such a bad investment. I too hate working with dealers and it is stressful buying a new car. The only advantage I see for trading in a vehicle is tax savings. You only pay tax on the difference which you can’t do if you sell the car on your own. I sold my Expedition to a friend several years ago now and it’s still going strong.


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## parbaked (May 26, 2020)

boomchakabowwow said:


> my wife is super desirable.



My wife is not bad...
I drive a 2009 Mini Cooper S 6 speed. It's held up pretty well as has my wife.


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## panda (May 26, 2020)

get a new corvette


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## Keith Sinclair (May 26, 2020)

Nice to have a super desirable wife


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## parbaked (May 26, 2020)

panda said:


> get a new corvette


Wilma would be way too annoying without back seat social distancing!


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## boomchakabowwow (May 26, 2020)

parbaked said:


> My wife is not bad...
> I drive a 2009 Mini Cooper S 6 speed. It's held up pretty well as has my wife.


 crap...hahhaha. opps.


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## boomchakabowwow (May 26, 2020)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Nice to have a super desirable wife


 
OPPS..hahha


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## boomchakabowwow (May 26, 2020)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Nice to have a super desirable wife



my friend always says, "yea, i got a TROPHY WIFE, to bad the trophy wasn't for "first place""


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## Runner_up (May 26, 2020)

I refuse to have a car payment. That's good money that could be spent on knives or watches


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## sudsy9977 (May 26, 2020)

Thanks for all the replies. My wife wants to keep the Mercedes suv because it’s luxurious. Yeah and it’s a 2013 with like 150k miles. In another year or two I’ll be in the same spot as my garbage cars now. I wanna trade it in while it’s worth something. God help me!


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## LostHighway (May 26, 2020)

sudsy9977 said:


> Thanks for all the replies. My wife wants to keep the Mercedes suv because it’s luxurious. Yeah and it’s a 2013 with like 150k miles. In another year or two I’ll be in the same spot as my garbage cars now. I wanna trade it in while it’s worth something. God help me!




You're right, not that that will help you.


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## sudsy9977 (May 26, 2020)

U wanna tell my wife that. Lol.


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## bahamaroot (May 27, 2020)

boomchakabowwow said:


> ...no new purchase in the near future. Not in these economic muddy waters.
> 
> we haven’t had a car payment since 2008. We’ve gotten accustomed to that freedom.


Now is the time to buy. Some screaming great deals out there right now because of the economy. It's the biggest reason I'm looking to buy now and not in two or three years when it will cost me thousands more when the economy is hopefully doing much better.


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## PappaG (May 27, 2020)

I see a lot of 0% financing, but other then that what screaming deals have you found?


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## Keith Sinclair (May 27, 2020)

Mercedes favorite car for Korean bar owners here. 

Get rid of it before expensive repair bills. Same with BMW.

Only German car I want is the early Porsche Cayman S with the flat six.


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## swarfrat (May 27, 2020)

LostHighway said:


> When we lived in Maine I had a great (independent) mechanic who I very much miss as he was scrupulously honest ......... His take on both BMWs and M-B was that they are fine when they are new but you don't want to hang on to them too long out of warranty unless you absolutely love the car and are prepared to absorb the maintenance.


When we sold my wife's '03 MINI to a friend we took it to his independent German service shop for a once over. We were there first thing in the morning and there was a pristine 7 series and 5 series already in the lot. I figured they were customers' who had dropped them off the night before. Nope, they were cars that were in otherwise mint condition but had some mechanical issue that would cost more to repair than the car was worth. They were basically just very pretty scrap. The owners had abandoned them.

I still have a couple of friends who are die-hard Euro fans. But all of the "normal" people I know who bought Merc's, BMW's, Audi's and especially Range Rovers got absolutely sick of them.



Keith Sinclair said:


> .... You cannot even get a manual Forester in the US anymore. Stopped making them couple yrs. ago.....


2018, got one of the very last ones.

Had a 2015 that had been great but when I found they were dropping the stick for 2019 I figured it was my last chance so I might as well have one with 30k fewer miles on it.



boomchakabowwow said:


> .... I can’t say the Subaru has been trouble free ( the top end needed to be rebuilt). But it’s solid now.....


It's a Subaru, wouldn't that be a side end?


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## Matus (May 27, 2020)

You should really check out the YT channel called ‘savagegeese’ - may help you with your choice and even give you a laugh or two.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 27, 2020)

My good Portuguese friend bought a used Audi for his daughter. High end sedan all leather interior. Asked him why? Because he got it at a good price for classy car. Less than a year later was faced with engine repair bill that was more than what he paid for the car. That car still sits in his driveway 4 yrs. later it's broken down just part of the Gomes graveyard.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 27, 2020)

panda said:


> get a new corvette


 
Yeh you don't even have to shift gears. Porsche tried that on a model some years ago. They had to bring back the manual option.


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## larrybard (May 27, 2020)

swarfrat said:


> 2018, got one of the very last ones.
> 
> Had a 2015 that had been great but when I found they were dropping the stick for 2019 I figured it was my last chance so I might as well have one with 30k fewer miles on it.


Did the very same thing; purchased a 2018 manual Forester before they became unavailable. And Subaru arguably has the best all wheel drive in case of snow (remember snow?). All my cars are manual.


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## larrybard (May 27, 2020)

I suggest that after reading the private ads to get a sense of the "market" for your current vehicle, you then go to CarMax and find out what they will offer you. Then go to dealers and find the very best deal available on the vehicle you want to buy -- WITHOUT mentioning that you might have any vehicle to trade in. (BTW, my cousin -- a savvy and very frugal fellow -- swears that he got the best deal on a new car the last time through Costco.) Anyway, after you negotiate the best price for your new vehicle from a dealer, THEN find out how much they'll give you for your trade-in, and compare that to CarMax, etc. (And factor in that normally when you buy a new vehicle from a dealer and at the same time trade in a vehicle, you pay sales tax based on the NET price, so -- all things being equal (though they rarely are) -- it would be preferable (and simpler) to sell your old vehicle to the dealer you'll be using to purchase your new vehicle.)


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## bahamaroot (May 27, 2020)

PappaG said:


> I see a lot of 0% financing, but other then that what screaming deals have you found?


$6000 in consumer rebates from Ford. Some lots had up to $12,000 off sticker with the dealer and manufacturer rebates and 0% financing. The truck that I'm seriously looking at has a sticker of $54000 and they've offered it at $42,500.


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## alterwisser (May 29, 2020)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Mercedes favorite car for Korean bar owners here.
> 
> Get rid of it before expensive repair bills. Same with BMW.
> 
> Only German car I want is the early Porsche Cayman S with the flat six.



what? Why?

Seriously, the ONLY Porsche one should get is the 911 or any of its predecessors (unless you can get your hands on a 959)....

and you can only get one if you know how to pronounce it properly


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## bkultra (May 29, 2020)

Only Porsche to get is the GT2/3 (have to be more specific with your 911s)


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## gregfisk (May 29, 2020)

larrybard said:


> I suggest that after reading the private ads to get a sense of the "market" for your current vehicle, you then go to CarMax and find out what they will offer you. Then go to dealers and find the very best deal available on the vehicle you want to buy -- WITHOUT mentioning that you might have any vehicle to trade in. (BTW, my cousin -- a savvy and very frugal fellow -- swears that he got the best deal on a new car the last time through Costco.) Anyway, after you negotiate the best price for your new vehicle from a dealer, THEN find out how much they'll give you for your trade-in, and compare that to CarMax, etc. (And factor in that normally when you buy a new vehicle from a dealer and at the same time trade in a vehicle, you pay sales tax based on the NET price, so -- all things being equal (though they rarely are) -- it would be preferable (and simpler) to sell your old vehicle to the dealer you'll be using to purchase your new vehicle.)


This is all excellent advice and I couldn’t agree more. I also agree that unless you have a lot of disposable income and don’t mind repairing them German cars aren’t worth the headaches.


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## sudsy9977 (May 29, 2020)

I totally agree about German cars. I got them so cheap even with the repairs I’m far ahead of the game. It’s funny because most of my cars are in good condition for their age. And ALOT of people think I’m rich or something. Rich? I drive a 14 year old bmw and I’m rich? Meanwhile they’re driving an almost brand new Jeep that’s worth 40 k.


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## larrybard (May 29, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> . . . . I also agree that unless you have a lot of disposable income and don’t mind repairing them German cars aren’t worth the headaches.


My experience has fortunately been quite different. (But, yes, I wouldn't necessarily generalize that it's typical.) My Porsche has been fairly trouble free for as long as I've owned it (which has been several years).


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## TheNewMexican (May 30, 2020)

boomchakabowwow said:


> we haven’t had a car payment since 2008. We’ve gotten accustomed to that freedom.



Glad for you friend! We have been in the same boat for roughly 11 years as well. So much less stress, except when you try and mention that to people at work and they look at you like you have a third eye. Ha!



Keith Sinclair said:


> Have a 2009 Honda with short throw stick shift. It is fun to drive.
> 
> Was checking out Honda S2000 online. They hold value pretty good compared to other sports or supercars that lose a ton of value over 10 yrs.
> 
> S2000 made 10 years 1999-2009 many were run hard on tracks. Think lower milage good examples will become collectable in the future.



Love the Honda's! Have a 2000 accord with the V6. Have lusted after the S2000. Unfortunately, the examples I've seen for sale in real life were really high mileage or "tuned" and somewhat suspect.



Matus said:


> You should really check out the YT channel called ‘savagegeese’ - may help you with your choice and even give you a laugh or two.



I tried watching savagegeese, but they never seemed happy. Always pecking at this or that, never giving the final sense that any car was just "o.k."


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## Keith Sinclair (May 30, 2020)

alterwisser said:


> what? Why?
> 
> Seriously, the ONLY Porsche one should get is the 911 or any of its predecessors (unless you can get your hands on a 959)....
> 
> and you can only get one if you know how to pronounce it properly



Not a Porsche snob at all. The early Cayman S came with the 3.4 L six. Virio cam valve timing. It was a strong very reliable engine. The base Cayman had 2.7L engine.

Caymans intro in 2006 weigh less than the Boxer & thanks to a fixed roof significantly more torsional rigidity allowing stiffer suspension all around better handling. 

In 2006 Britain's Auto Car Cayman S best out more expensive 911

Personally like the lines of the smaller Cayman. Later not sure what year think 2015 did away with the excellent 3.4L six with a turbo four.

You can find examples of 2006-2010 for reasonable price. Have a neighbor that picked one up from private owner. In Georgia drove it to California & shipped to Hawaii. Beautiful car garage kept all its life only 26,000 miles. 2008 Cayman S 19,900.00.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 2, 2020)

Sorry nobody seems to care anyway but can't help it.

Car & Driver 2020 718 Cayman GT4

Naturally aspirated flat six howling toward 8000 rpm. 49 horses over most powerful turbo 4 pot cayman.

The brute Force of turbo chargers is undeniable, but the linear crescendo of the output of the six is vastly more engaging.

Porsche does not make 911 track cars like the GT3 anymore. Their GT track cars are the light weight mid engine excellent handling Caymans. The 718 Cayman GT4 only comes with a superb manual trans.

The 911 is a more civil day driver sports car. The Cayman is more like 911 used to be. Even better. Many 911 are auto trans. Driven by rich people who don't 
even know how to drive manual.

I noticed when searching for 10+ year old flat six Cayman S that most were manual trans. The smaller flat six base Cayman had more automatics.

The ultimate sports car 718 GT4 Cayman starts at around 100K. 

10 year old Cayman S with the powerful flat six can be found not thrashed out on the track, low milage for a very reasonable entry level price for a excellent machine.


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## panda (Jun 2, 2020)

i would love to get an old porsche and drive along the california coastline


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## WildBoar (Jun 2, 2020)

panda said:


> i would love to get an old porsche and drive along the california coastline


Do it! You ain't getting any younger, you know?


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## panda (Jun 2, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> Do it! You ain't getting any younger, you know?


my stupid ass would prolly end up taking a corner too fast and drive off a cliff


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## M1k3 (Jun 2, 2020)

panda said:


> i would love to get an old porsche and drive along the california coastline


What a coincidence, I live not very far from the coast. 5 or so minute drive.



panda said:


> my stupid ass would prolly end up taking a corner too fast and drive off a cliff



Er, I'll show you the way to the coast from my house.


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## LostHighway (Jun 2, 2020)

panda said:


> i would love to get an old porsche and drive along the california coastline



If it is only a "for fun" car forget about older (more than 15 years) Porsches and look at the Lotus 7 replicars like Caterhams, Westlake, or Birkin, (their are a few others) or the previously mentioned S2000 Hondas. Caveat, If you're a big guy the Lotus 7 replicars probably won't work.


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## panda (Jun 2, 2020)

i already have s2000, as a daily hehe


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 2, 2020)

Hardly ever see S2000 here. None even listed for sale. My best friends Ito & Paul both had 69 Camaro. Ito sold his looking for 1965 Mustang fastback. 

Hopeless baby boomers we had motorcycles too go together to local car shows. That's the reason I souped up my Honda with coil overs, racing brace, rear racing anti sway bar & sprintex supercharger. Dropped it just a inch did not want it too low. The parts bought had the coilovers & supercharger installed by a shop. I put on brace, sway bar, Spoon pipes, short throw shifter had a U tube showing how to do it.


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## swarfrat (Jun 3, 2020)

larrybard said:


> Did the very same thing; purchased a 2018 manual Forester before they became unavailable. And Subaru arguably has the best all wheel drive in case of snow (remember snow?). All my cars are manual.


Arrrrrgh! Don't remind me. Best late season snow in _forever, _and the mountains had all closed early. I was originally scheduled to hit the lifts a couple of days after the bug shut it all down.

Neither my wife nor I have ever owned an automatic. (Obviously, we've driven lots of them, family's cars, rentals, etc...) But we may be forced to. She's been thinking about a replacement for her Impreza, but nothing she likes, Forester, 4Runner, can be had with a manual anymore.




larrybard said:


> ...... (BTW, my cousin -- a savvy and very frugal fellow -- swears that he got the best deal on a new car the last time through Costco.) ....


We've bought several cars through Costco over the last couple of decades and have been happy with the process. I wouldn't be surprised if you can get a slightly better deal if you go for something on the lot, hit them at just the right time when they're really hungry and trying to make their numbers, and you're a total shark when negotiating. (Of course_ right now_, dealers are _really _hungry.) Our cars have generally been special orders, dealer swaps, etc to get exactly the car we want, exactly the way we want it. The Costco system makes it soooooo much more pleasant.

If you do have a dealer you prefer, check if they're on the Costco Program up front. They normally just assign you a dealer based on your zip code. But you can call Costco and have them switch you to any of their dealers.




panda said:


> i would love to get an old porsche and drive along the california coastline


Whatever you do, do it open top! Cabrio or Targa, Speedster, 911 or Boxster, heck make it a 914, whatever. just have the wind in your hair and the sun on your face.

Of course, the _right way_ to do it is in a 550. (Just not that last part.)


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 3, 2020)

Don't think I have ever owned a auto trans. cars, 62 split window VW van, trucks Datsuns & Nissan's, & motorcycles.

I got my driver's licence on 15 birthday with auto trans push button 63 Dodge Dart slant six engine. First car was a three speed on the collum 51 Plymouth. Paid 150.00$ for it. First summer worked on Scallop boat made good money bought a MGA black with red leather interior. 

I would think that some of the Subaru models still carry manual. Of coarse the BRZ sports car have manual. Half the fun of driving manuals is winding that tac rpms to get sweet spot power range of engine. Engaged driving. 

Admit my lust of Caymans is mostly because to me it is a great looking sports car.


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## swarfrat (Jun 4, 2020)

The Impreza, Crosstrek and BRZ are still available with sticks. She just doesn't want any of them.

She already has an Impreza. That's what she wants to change out. The Crosstrek is basically a lifted Impreza.

The Toyobaru BRZ/FRS/GT86 is great but can't carry all the stuff she needs to haul around on a regular basis.

No shame in lusting after a Cayman.


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## Leeeeena (Jun 4, 2020)

I've wanted a 911 as long as I can remember (grew up with most of my family members having one at some point), but couldn't afford any of them except maybe a low level 996 or early 997. I went to a Porsche meet last year and ended up test driving a 944 Turbo, which happened to fit my price range perfectly. It's faster than my Miatas (one of which is a Mazdaspeed), cost less than any 911 and turns WAY more heads. The problem is that two of us now have six cars (five manual), and I can't bear to give up any of my babies.


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## WildBoar (Jun 4, 2020)

Probably best to buy a 7th car. Then you can get rid of it and feel better.


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## Matus (Jun 4, 2020)

If you are on a budget, just get a Toyota GT86 (Subaru BRZ). A lot of fun, just do not try to drag race anything stronger than a fully loaded family van


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## erickso1 (Jun 4, 2020)

Hey man, car prices are likely to go up shortly. Demand for used/new is picking up and the supply chain for new is severely constricted.


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## swarfrat (Jun 6, 2020)

Leeeeena said:


> ... The problem is that two of us now have six cars (five manual).....


Yeah, I see your problem. You really need to swap out that one auto for a stick. 


Sweet "new" ride! The background looks familiar, somewhere on the central coast?


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## agp (Jul 28, 2020)

I am not in the camp of "never will I have a car payment", especially in today's low rate environment. Car loan's low rates and simple (non-compounding) interest makes car loans the cheapest money you can borrow. Student loans and mortgage rates compound, credit card rates are absurd, and personal loans have few purposes other than to finance yourself out of credit card debt or payday loans. Most financially savvy guys will pay the 0-5% simple interest car loan while their investments (even a diversified portfolio) earns at least 7% return that compounds annually. Take one step further, those that are even more financially savvy (and wealthy) get ARM or IO mortgages.

I am not advocating for spending money you don't have, but I am advocating for smart allocation of money. If, when the Cybertruck I ordered finally goes into production, car interest rates are 20% while mortgages rates are 0.5%, I will happily cash out refi my condo and put that money towards buy the car with cash. All depends on where money will earn/save me the most.

Also stay away from Porsche snobs!


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## ma_sha1 (Jul 28, 2020)

Get a 401k loan, the interest paid will go back into your 401k.


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## WildBoar (Jul 28, 2020)

agp said:


> I am not in the camp of "never will I have a car payment", especially in today's low rate environment. Car loan's low rates and simple (non-compounding) interest makes car loans the cheapest money you can borrow. Student loans and mortgage rates compound, credit card rates are absurd, and personal loans have few purposes other than to finance yourself out of credit card debt or payday loans. Most financially savvy guys will pay the 0-5% simple interest car loan while their investments (even a diversified portfolio) earns at least 7% return that compounds annually. Take one step further, those that are even more financially savvy (and wealthy) get ARM or IO mortgages.


You forgot to mention that money is often invested in the stock market. So the real financially savvy don't invest a lot in the market when it is has a lot of downward pressure. Not sure how many portfolios are in the black for 2020 here in the US.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 29, 2020)

How common is car financing in America? Wouldn't you avoid it like the plague? Isnt that where dealers are making their money now?



WildBoar said:


> So the real financially savvy don't invest a lot in the market when it is has a lot of downward pressure.



Really? Isn't buy low, sell high better.... or just buy units in an index fund and forget about it for two decades?


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## WildBoar (Jul 29, 2020)

Car financing in the US is all over the place, and largely reflects the economy. When the economy is slow, car load rates are low. When the economy is doing well, finance rates go up.

Buy low is always good. But what is low right now? Is DOW 26k low? yes, compared to the 29k right at the start of Covid. Yet a bit higher than 21k once people realized Covid was here in a big way. If you have 2 decades, nothing wrong at all with index funds. I was fortunate to have some funds available around Dow 23k, and bought a handful of stocks that are up. But the bulk of my retirement account is largely in funds, and they are down a bit from pre-Covid and likely will not bounce all the way back for a couple years. So by leaving money in stocks/ funds I am down more than if I had used it to buy cars


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## Luftmensch (Jul 29, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> Car financing in the US is all over the place, and largely reflects the economy. When the economy is slow, car load rates are low. When the economy is doing well, finance rates go up.



Seems common in Awwwwstraaaya but in a minority. I read that 20% of new cars sold have finance on them. I don't know how accurate that is. By way of anecdotal experience, none of my friends or colleagues have finance on their car... but then again, most people I know have vanilla vehicles (including myself). Japanese and S.Korean cars are very popular here. So are European cars but they tend to be in the luxury bracket. American cars don't feature much. We had our local subsidiaries of GM and Ford instead, but that all collapsed only a few years ago. I suspect we'll see more American imports now as a result.



WildBoar said:


> Buy low is always good. But what is low right now? Is DOW 26k low? yes, compared to the 29k right at the start of Covid. Yet a bit higher than 21k once people realized Covid was here in a big way. If you have 2 decades, nothing wrong at all with index funds. I was fortunate to have some funds available around Dow 23k, and bought a handful of stocks that are up. But the bulk of my retirement account is largely in funds, and they are down a bit from pre-Covid and likely will not bounce all the way back for a couple years. So by leaving money in stocks/ funds I am down more than if I had used it to buy cars



Yeah... True. Excellent point. I have time to wait. but it has been terrible for people retiring or in retirement. The fact that our interest rates are practically zero makes it difficult to park your money in a safe productive spot.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 29, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Get a 401k loan, the interest paid will go back into your 401k.



I would say to younger people get an IRA pay taxes on it before you have too much money in it turn into a Roth IRA. Talk to someone who knows rules with Roth IRA. 

Years ago had plenty cash paid taxes on on one of my IRA turned it into a Roth. Best thing ever did financially. 

When retired had time to trade stocks. Was going aggressive with my Roth because all capital gains are tax free. It is 8x up in money from when paid taxes years ago.

Think of all the Fed. & State taxes you pay. Even when buy anything more taxes. Add it up over the years. If you own property more taxes. Even when you die your estate taxes.

It makes me feel good to see serious capital gains with no tax ever. If I die my Roth will go to family they can take out money tax free. I can take out money tax free. Can't do that with my 401 have serious coin in that too been in a fully stock mutual fund for decades. If take money out have to pay taxes.

In the Democrat debates they said raise capital gains taxes. To think American revolution had the Boston tea party unfair taxation by the Brits.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 29, 2020)

Might add out of the market now at least until this covid19 licked by science. World-wide fundimentals are terrible.


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## agp (Jul 29, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> You forgot to mention that money is often invested in the stock market. So the real financially savvy don't invest a lot in the market when it is has a lot of downward pressure. Not sure how many portfolios are in the black for 2020 here in the US.



I did mention the average 7% returning in a diversified portfolio. However, there is money to be made regardless of where the market goes. Long equity when it is going up, short equity when it is going down, iron condor or spreads when it’s staying flat. That’s not even touching debt and commodities. The average retail retail investors do not have skin in the game when it is choppy. The real financially savvy do. The common investor hoards cash in a market downturn in case their job is affected. Overlay a car sales graph with an S&P 500 graph - no one buys cars when the market is bad. Same goes for buying home and general spending. The common retail investor, better yet, the common person, does not spend when there is an economic crisis.


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## agp (Jul 29, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> How common is car financing in America? Wouldn't you avoid it like the plague? Isnt that where dealers are making their money now?
> 
> Really? Isn't buy low, sell high better.... or just buy units in an index fund and forget about it for two decades?



Auto finance is common in the US. So is spending on credit, US consumers spend more on credit than most developed countries. There have been talks of an auto loan bubble. Not sure where those talks are now though. Dealers don't make much from financing.

There are two types of dealers - branded and independent. Branded dealers are what are commonly seen e.g. Ford dealer. These are dealerships owned by John Doe that contract with the auto maker to put the blue oval on a big pole in the lot. The dealerships themselves are not banks, so when they underwrite loans, they are pushing loan applications to various financial institutions. If you go to a Ford dealer, your loan might be pushed to Ford Motor Credit Company (the auto finance subsidiary of Ford Motor), Capital One, Wells Fargo, etc etc. In this case Ford Credit likely has preferential treatment if rates across banks are comparable. The dealer may mark up the rate by a few bps, but nothing major. If you get a $50k loan, the dealer might make a few $ in the interest mark up, but the majority is made from selling the vehicle and other F&I stuff (gap insurance, etc). This, of course, focuses on car buying and excludes income from repairs/servicing, or contracts with Ford, etc. Independent dealers are the chop shops you see on the corner of sketchy street and pothole blvd. They sell all types of used cars and advertise "financing for everyone". They make more from interest than the former type of dealer.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 29, 2020)

For existing 2020 cars on lot or in storage Toyota was giving 0 percent loans.

Subaru 1.9 percent on 2020 on lot. Plus 1K off price.

They are not selling cars it is a good time to buy if you have the coin. Because of this thread visited Honda, Toyota, & Subaru dealers in Hawaii.

Test drove CRV, RAV4, & Crosstrek. They had sold all the Crosstrek manuals had a bunch of automatics on the lot.

Liked the engine of RAV4 2.5L put the trans in sport mode as soon as pulled off the lot. 

After test drives got back in my fun to drive stick shift Honda. Bought it new eleven years ago. Turned it into a hot rod. Not really worth much no mechanical issues at all. Did have recall all new airbags installed. Must have cost Honda a fortune to do that.


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## larrybard (Jul 29, 2020)

agp said:


> I am not in the camp of "never will I have a car payment", especially in today's low rate environment. Car loan's low rates and simple (non-compounding) interest makes car loans the cheapest money you can borrow. Student loans and mortgage rates compound, credit card rates are absurd, and personal loans have few purposes other than to finance yourself out of credit card debt or payday loans. Most financially savvy guys will pay the 0-5% simple interest car loan while their investments (even a diversified portfolio) earns at least 7% return that compounds annually. Take one step further, those that are even more financially savvy (and wealthy) get ARM or IO mortgages.
> 
> I am not advocating for spending money you don't have, but I am advocating for smart allocation of money. If, when the Cybertruck I ordered finally goes into production, car interest rates are 20% while mortgages rates are 0.5%, I will happily cash out refi my condo and put that money towards buy the car with cash. All depends on where money will earn/save me the most.
> 
> Also stay away from Porsche snobs!


I agree completely with just about everything you said (except your very last sentence). Get the car you want/need and be prepared to write a check, but be open minded about financing. That's what I did when about a year ago I bought a new Subaru Forester (last year manual transmission was available), after discovering that relatively recent used ones weren't much cheaper than a new one. I came to the dealer to pick it up, with a check in hand for the full purchase price. And then the dealer asked if I would like 0% financing. After going through the paperwork to make sure that they weren't being deceptive, and the almost too good to be true offer was legitimate, I did opt for financing (for a one time fee of $15). Set up automatic payments from my checking account so that I couldn't inadvertently miss a payment and trigger all sorts of penalties. Been 100% happy with my decision.

Larry
(also owner of a 993)


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