# Knife Newbie Needs "Death Blade" - Advice?



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 3, 2014)

Synopsis: 
Amateurish home chef snorts too much Sichuan pepper dust; demands ninja death blade to smite hordes of uppity onions, intolerable tomatoes, and all the #*&^$ mauve leprechauns rummaging through the crisper.

Basically, im a home chef who spends a lot of time in the kitchen and enjoys doing so. Recently realized that, as in woodwork, if you enjoy it, then its worth getting the right tools. And in the world of the kitchen, that means having something that a.) burns stuff (check!) and b.) juliennes vegetables, meats, and / or fingers with equal aplomb. (noooo dice)

Currently, i have a drawer of $20 Wal-Mart specials. Only one  a chefs knife  is used consistently, and with a little love, tenderness, and thoughtful care, its stainless steel edge can be brutalized over 30 grit rock into some form vaguely resembling sharpness. Actually, i must be doing something right, because i can sharpen & hone the thing to a level that scares most casual users and has surprised (cut) a few careless hands that thought they were holding one of their usual 2x4s.

But i know enough about knives & stones to understand that, in a professional environment, this thing has about the same acuity as your average Louisville Slugger and doesnt cut the product at hand so much as it might, say, aggressively beat it to submission. Having said, i dont know much about fine, high-quality blades and could use the benefit of some professional advice. As, no doubt, could most of the general public. Offer what you will.


What Im Looking For:
Budget of $200 or under. Knife would be a daily worker. I assume a chefs knife is best, due to the rocking motion of a good belly and the fact that i do a lot of work with vegetables, especially tomatoes and onions  the usuals  and thats where the sharpness and belly of the blade seem to matter most. I use my current chef 98% of the time and, frankly, could chuck the other lot into the street and never miss a one.

I work with plenty of meats, but try to avoid hack & slash jobs. Id like the ability to cut thin strips (Asian style) which also seems closely tied to blade sharpness (and quality).

From what i have read, it seems that the style-laden Japanese blades are a better fit to my profile than the Western / German meat cutlasses. Doodling around the web, ive seen a chefs knife from Shun (Premier, 8-inch) that seems decent enough for the job, but perhaps i overestimate my own level of finesse with a delicate blade ... or give more credit to the manufacturer than is due.

Knowing what you know now, what knife would you grab for under $200 if "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!"


PS. Not scared by a tool that might need a little special TLC. The proper tool used in the proper way can be a transformative thing. Fully willing to trade some convenience for a zap of brilliance in performance. Or, well, any spark of 'life.'


----------



## ThEoRy (Mar 3, 2014)

This may help us narrow it down.




LOCATION
What country are you in?



KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?

Are you right or left handed?

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

What knife, if any, are you replacing?

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS


----------



## daddy yo yo (Mar 3, 2014)

My choice: Misono Sweden Steel aka THE DRAGON (Western handle).

It is below your maximum budget, it has fantastic fit & finish, and it is and gets scary sharp. Oh, it is carbon steel (it rusts and reacts with food) so it does take special care.

Other choices: Hiromoto AS (Western handle), Sakai Yusuke (Wa-handle)

But I am not sure if the SY is available in your price range...


----------



## seattle_lee (Mar 3, 2014)

If you plan on learning to sharpen, do you have a separate budget for waterstones?


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 3, 2014)

My Chinese Cleaver / Wood Ax is made of iron or carbon steel and reacts to everything but sharpening tools. (Thing came so abysmally blunt out-of-the wrapper that i still have a hard time telling which side's supposed to do the cutting.) So i'm accustomed to dealing with demanding gear that likes to rust off just for sitting around.

And while other dishes in the kitchen might lay about, waiting for a good scrub and a pat, i always give my chef's knife (poor as it is) an immediate clean and a dry. Just use it too much not to.

As for sharpening stones, i have one double-sided brick literally big enough for masonry use. Also has a similar grit count, though the box did not give numbers. It serves for lesser tools and chucking the car during oil changes. Do have a half-decent flat steel for honing. Between the two, you can put a surprisingly nice edge on a crummy blade.

I do recognize the need for a set of honest waterstones to compliment a tool worthy of the cost. I'm guessing that will include....

- 400 grit stone
- 1000 grit stone
- 6000 grit stone
- cleaning stone
- strop block

I've basically priced it in separate from the knife.


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 3, 2014)

oh - not sure how the handle figures into the calculation. I see those getting mentioned from time-to-time as a factor for some, but ... most kitchen work doesn't seem to involve a serious grip issue with the handle. I mean, if you're trying to knife a biker in a dive bar, yeah, the grip will matter a lot. But tomato slicing? onion chopping / rocking? paper-cutting a roast? more of a pinch than a seize-for-dear-life. Even if you're running veggie prep for the day, so long as the handle's not grossly oversized .. shouldn't be an issue? a light touch on a sharp blade, no?


----------



## ThEoRy (Mar 3, 2014)

4-Finger Chef said:


> oh - not sure how the handle figures into the calculation. I see those getting mentioned from time-to-time as a factor for some, but ... most kitchen work doesn't seem to involve a serious grip issue with the handle. I mean, if you're trying to knife a biker in a dive bar, yeah, the grip will matter a lot. But tomato slicing? onion chopping / rocking? paper-cutting a roast? more of a pinch than a seize-for-dear-life. Even if you're running veggie prep for the day, so long as the handle's not grossly oversized .. shouldn't be an issue? a light touch on a sharp blade, no?



Yo handled knives are heavier than wa.


----------



## mhlee (Mar 3, 2014)

ThEoRy said:


> This may help us narrow it down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First, you should fill this out before going on and on. 

Second, the type of handle matters more than you know. 

Third, there is no magical sub-$200 knife. If there were, everyone would have it. A knife can be a very personal thing. That's why you should fill out the questionnaire.


----------



## HomeCook (Mar 3, 2014)

I'd go with a western handled knife if that's what you're used to. You might also consider handle material. Wood tends to have a warmer feel but synthetics are more durable. Pakkawood and linen micarta are good choices for synthetics.

ThEoRy asked some important questions you need to consider. They're in the sticky at the top of this forum specifically so people can be helped correctly. For example are you right or left handed? If the knife has a symmetrical handle and a 50/50 bevel it won't matter what hand you use. If the knife has a D-shaped handle (as in the Shun classic line) or a 70/30 bevel (Masamoto, Misono) then you'll either have to order a left hand handle, which will be more expensive, or have the knife re-beveled to the left hand, which will also add to the cost and render the knife non-returnable if you hate it at first sight. 70/30 bevels are also more complicated to sharpen for a newbie. 

How big do you want the knife to be? There can be a $50 difference between an 8.2" (210mm) and a 9.4" (240mm) knife. An 8" might fall within your budget but a 9" exceed it. How big is your counter space and cutting board? How big is your current chef's knife and do you want to go larger or smaller?

Finally are you willing to expend the extra effort to maintain a carbon steel knife? You"ll have to keep wiping it down and never leave it wet or in the sink or it'll rust. It"ll react with acidic fruits an veggies so be prepared for discoloration/patina. Not everyone likes the look of patina and unlike the cleaver the chef's knife is going to be in constant daily use.


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 3, 2014)

I figure there are limitations on anything priced under $200, but plenty of opportunity there to drop serious spending money on the totally wrong tool.

I might push the budget to $250 if a good argument could be made for X over Y. Willing to make an investment in a worthy product ... but you start pushing four figures on some of these and youre comparing onions to house payment.

Location: America, TX

Type: Chefs Knife
Hand: Right-handed
Size: 8 (10 seems long but a good rocker belly might be appreciated)
Handle: no pref; 
doesnt matter if ones heavier, unless the dif is being measured in pounds...
Stainless? no pref; 
not afraid of extra effort to care for a carbon blade if its a better breed
inveterate cleaner / drier of my existing knife set
Budget? $200, might stretch to $250 if its really worth it / that different

Workplace:	Home knife
Use: cutting vegetables in all ways, not so much hard squash
meat slicing, trimming, basics (more delicate work-no bone busting)
light poultry breakdown
not much fish work (buy pre-filleted)

Replacing:	augmenting Stainless Wal-Mart $38 special / tomato bruiser
(old trooper to retain use for general assault & battery of bone joints)
Grip: standard hold, some with left hand pinching tip to pivot the cut
Cut motion:	Forward slice
Pivot from tip
Sawing (back & forth slide)

Improve? need something to hold an edge longer
need something WITH a better edge/turns a better burr
HATE blade slide on rounded objects 
(you didnt tap the apple, but my FINGER you bite!)
want better (thinner) cuts on meat (not sloppy, troublesome to cut)
tired of feeling like im putting a 2x4 to Romas after one salad

Aesthetics:	not particular
beauty is effortless; it comes from doing the job well
Comfort: balance is good
Ease of use:	cut well, slice well, hold an edge ... make the arduous effortless
Edge Retent:	better than a couple weeks would be nice

Cut Board:	yes
Sharpen? yes
Tools/Sharp:	yes

Special Notes:
Just has to be something that can deftly cut its way through most basic kitchen jobs and hold up to that use without requiring constant work to the blade.

Put it this way  $60 gets you the best table saw blade Home Depot has to offer. For twice the bucks, you can get a Forrest ... and perform at a level of excellence that would be impossible to even conceive of with the lesser HD blade. You could buy a drawer full of those $60s for a thousand bucks and it still wouldnt be worth the equal of one $120 Forrest.

That is the kind of knife im looking for. Why bother shelling out $120 for something that will never equal a $180? or etc? realizing, of course, that there are limits to the sky and you have to call it at one point or another.


----------



## seattle_lee (Mar 3, 2014)

Are you willing to forgo rock chopping and learn other methods of cutting? There aren't many (any?) japanese style knives that will hold up well to rock chopping.


----------



## Geo87 (Mar 3, 2014)

You have a lot of questions and I'll let others answer... But I will add this. 

Sometimes beginners get too hung up on it being all about the knife . 

Much more important is learning to sharpen & being able to modify a knife to get it performing better if it needs it. E.g thinning behind the edge , choosing an appropriate angle, getting an asymmetric edge to cut straight and wedge less. 
For a first J knife there is no need to spend more than $150 

Getting good stones and learning how to use them is much more important


----------



## Lexington Jim (Mar 3, 2014)

Ok, for the "leprechauns", I suggest Irish Whiskey:wink:. 

A Forest is a great saw blade, wish I had one. In the $200 to $250 USD range you have quite a number of good choices; I'm sure more informed members will make suggestions. The quality level at your price range is close enough to Forest, especially for a first Japanese knife.


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 3, 2014)

1.) i can give up on rock-chopping if it ain't necessary. 

My experience has been that the technique seems to best utilize whatever edge a blade might have left, when said blade might charitably be compared to the cut of one's tire tread.

And this is the sort of thing i mean - diddling about a kitchen with what amounts to a creatively-styled "spoon" leads one to believe in certain minimum-grade expectations. You begin to believe that "all knives cut like this" and don't even conceive of the possibility that, yes, the right blade well-honed and properly handled CAN humiliate a Jedi light sabre, if not death-choke the foolish and insolent out to a distance of fifty feet. (But Takeda is working on it; give it time...)

2.) Good points on blade vs. sharpening skills.

I don't mean to get hung on blade quality, but i have been around the (tool) block long enough to know that even a measly $30 can mean a world of difference between Model A and Model B. And when you start pushing 'car payment' kind of money, you really, REALLY don't want to find out that saving $30 on Model B was a really, REALLY stoopid idea. 'Cause then you end up stuck with el-clunko and regretting every minute, or you double-down and buy Model A .... and have now spent enough that you could have bought Model XXX-Xtreme!! and played among the gods of heavenly paradise.

SO ... bottom line is that i want to make a good, long-term tool investment. Question is, if you've got Model A for $120, a Model B for $180, and a Model XXX! for $300 ... are you really just better off with the Model A and saving the cash? Is Model XXX! just a name with a lot of fancy baggage and no real game? Or is that puppy a player in a whole 'nother league?

Been kissing plenty o' pigs in the stall; would prefer a dance with a flashier dame with good leg and nice 'bite'.


----------



## mhlee (Mar 3, 2014)

4-Finger Chef said:


> 1.) i can give up on rock-chopping if it ain't necessary.
> 
> My experience has been that the technique seems to best utilize whatever edge a blade might have left, when said blade might charitably be compared to the cut of one's tire tread.
> 
> ...



If you answered each of the Ease of Use questions, instead of filling your posts with hyperbole and verbal diarrhea, the members could help you more because most knives that are discussed here can get sharp and hold an edge well if you properly sharpen and maintain them. However, different knives can have very different performance characteristics.


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 3, 2014)

Lexington Jim said:


> Ok, for the "leprechauns", I suggest Irish Whiskey:wink:.
> 
> A Forest is a great saw blade, wish I had one. In the $200 to $250 USD range you have quite a number of good choices; I'm sure more informed members will make suggestions. The quality level at your price range is close enough to Forest, especially for a first Japanese knife.



Duuuude - if you've got a table saw and use it then it's worth every penny. Don't deny yourself - you'll kick yourself for it. Not just the blade, but I'd buck for a stabilizer, too. I've got a standard "do-all" 10" w/60 teeth. I can rip or cross 2" thick red oak like it's rotten pine and it leaves a finish better than a scraper in the hands of an old master. 

My table's a basic $500 jobber, but with my Forrest hooked up? she whistles like an Angel of Death and i can out-perform tables that run triple the price. Still have a set of fresh-never-opened HD "high-end specials" blades gathering dust in a cabinet ... one's propping up a wobbly table.

And that, folks, is the kind of kitchen knife anyone would want. It doesn't just muddle through, it doesn't just "do the job", it turns the work into a performance art. It makes the impossible seem effortless - even if you're a klutz and end up severing something important. At least the hospital staff can ooo and awe over the edge left behind with envious eyes.


----------



## Talim (Mar 3, 2014)

Around your budget you'll find Misono, Carbonext, Ginga, Tanaka, and Hiromoto. I probably left a lot of others but those are usually what most people start with. If you're just learning to sharpen and maintain a knife and also learning how to use one, then it's probably a good idea to start with the lower end since you'll most likely end up screwing it up a few times before getting the hang of it. Also since you don't really know what you want then buying something relatively cheap won't hurt you in the long run when it's time to move on to a different knife. $200 may seem a lot compared to your walmart knife but once you use one you'll wonder why you never bought one before. After that you'll start wondering what the higher end models have and soon you'll have too many knives.


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 3, 2014)

mhlee said:


> If you answered each of the Ease of Use questions, instead of filling your posts with hyperbole and verbal diarrhea, the members could help you more because most knives that are discussed here can get sharp and hold an edge well if you properly sharpen and maintain them. However, different knives can have very different performance characteristics.



Thought i did answer those in full, and succintly. Not so?
Then let's leave the edge to the knives and keep the reparte dull but to the point -

I cut mostly vegetables and meats at home.

Technique? whatever will work; you don't have many options with poor steel and that's all i know / have to work with.
Happy to learn a new trick if it suits the steel.

I don't care if it's sharp out of the box or not; you'll have to sharpen it sometime.

Reactivity doesn't matter; keep it clean and treat it right.

Easier to sharpen? Nice, but performance on the job counts more.

ca va? what else?


----------



## James (Mar 3, 2014)

gesshin kagero - very nice looking grind and edge retention should be mind blowing if it's only seeing home use
tanaka ginsanko - good cutter; very rustic and will need some sandpaper work and a proper sharpening OTB
suisin inox, fujiwara fkm, hiromoto g3 and gesshin uraku are other solid stainless choices


----------



## Paradox (Mar 3, 2014)

Get yourself a Hiromoto AS 240mm Gyuto. Use it for 4 months and see where you are at.


----------



## Dave Martell (Mar 3, 2014)

4-Finger Chef, have you by chance posted on other forums as Chico Buller (AKA - The Tourist)?


----------



## ThEoRy (Mar 4, 2014)

Hiromoto AS is cool, Tanaka blue steel or vg-10, I think the ginsankos are a bit thicker. Carbonext, Gesshin Uraku is a bargain within your range as well. Gesshin Gonbei is nice too. I would suggest a 240mm gyuto as well. I wish I could help you narrow it down some more but your answers leave so much room. I could prolly list another 10 blades within your price.


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 4, 2014)

Dave - no, i haven't.

Should I?

I was bumbling about the web, looking for info on higher-quality knives. Bumped into this one and thought i'd tap the vine of knowledge for a few educated fruits, and have gotten a few interesting leads i might not have hit otherwise.

Before coming here, i found a lot of chatter about Western / German vs. Japanese, thin v. thick, Stainless v. Carbon v. Powder v. Damascus v. kitchen sink .... It was a lot to take in - too much, really. But it was enough to raise red flags - a knife is not just a "knife" and one is not necessarily like the other. And if you don't know what you're about, it's likely you'll end up with some expensive regrets.

From the discussions running here, it seemed like this was the place to go for folks who knew the lore in-and-out and could 'slash' through the chatter to get to the heart of the matter. Forget nuance - what are you paying for, or what aren't you getting? what's worth it, what ain't?

For example:

Misono UX10 Gyuto, 210mm = $200
Hiromoto AS Gyuto, 240mm = $165
Masamoto KS Gyuto, 240mm=$180
Takeda AS Gyuto, 210mm = $300

Are they effectively the same, with the only difference being the badge? Is the Misono really that "hot" over the Hiro, and if so, why? And what difference lies between said Miso and the Takeda? If given the choice between all four, does someone 'in the know' jump for dear life at the Takeda, or do they laugh and walk off with the Hiro? or just walk, period, and grab trusty model X?

You see, the big problem here is that, basically, they're all outwardly the same. It's a piece of thin shiny metal with a woody handle that stabs and slices things, hopefully not you. But look at drills ... $30 more buys you a heavier duty electric motor; $100 buys a bigger chuck, etc. It tells you so on the box. Even so, it doesn't take much digging to turn out those little gems. Drill bit X is titanium hardened; in the right drill, you can burn through steel like butter. Cheapo carbon bit? looks the same but - as reported on the label! - is only good for pine or wet cardboard.

So you look at higher-end knives ... there are tons, with price points all over the place. Even if you're serious about food and serious about sharpening (the right way), how do you discern between true quality and marketing jazz/puffery? How is one to navigate that realm if you care, but aren't looking to make a college career out of it? Realizing, of course, that the average person doesn't even know you CAN sharpen a blade (you'd be surprised, you really would), or, even if they do, that it involves more than a few quick swicks through a $5 v-cut sharpener at WallyWorld. Whether a carbon VG-39CT11.2 is incrementally better in holding an edge over SOC/773-K9.911 with a 1.01% chromium infusion over the vanadium bezelizer just isn't that relevant. Unless, of course, it spells the $150 difference between X and Y and THIS is why you should really care about that feature ...

Basically, what are you getting for the money? What matters and what doesn't? If a $100 job covers most of the work with aplomb, does that mean $150 and over is just smoke & mirrors to polish the ego? Or is that sylphen sliver of silver for $300 worth every penny, and you'd regret giving it up for the sake of saving $200? IF ... you only knew ...


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 4, 2014)

ThEoRy said:


> Hiromoto AS is cool, Tanaka blue steel or vg-10, I think the ginsankos are a bit thicker. Carbonext, Gesshin Uraku is a bargain within your range as well. Gesshin Gonbei is nice too. I would suggest a 240mm gyuto as well. I wish I could help you narrow it down some more but your answers leave so much room. I could prolly list another 10 blades within your price.



Names i keep seeing, which is a good sign. Multiple endorsements from people in-the-know carries real weight. What i'm wondering is, when you're in this range, you might have $100 separating one blade from the other. Heck - $150. Is it meaningful? or is $20 / $40 just a separation of faith you put in one master's hand over another? Ignore a $30 difference, but $50 is one to consider, and $100 means a real step up?

And yes, know what you mean. Amazing number of high-rated Japanese knife brands / masters out there. Seems like there's a dozen for every village in the country. Odd, this paralysis of choice. A more narrow field would make it so much easier, especially if more were clearly dogs.


----------



## Erilyn75 (Mar 4, 2014)

Based on personal experience I'm going to say NO to the Takeda. Too many issues with them right now. I happen to be one of the few here that really like Misono. The 440 was my first Jknife and the ux10 is the most balanced western I've ever handled in my limited experience. That being said, the UX10 is rather overpriced. 

I understand you want the best bang for your buck. I'd take the suggested knives and see which one you think you'd like better. Own it for awhile and find out what you like/don't like then if you want to pursue something different you can always put it up for sale on B/S/T or eBay and recoup some of your money for another purchase. I'd also suggest a 240 unless you have a tiny workspace. 

Hiromoto AS 
Hiromoto G3
Carbonext
Gesshin Ginga
Misono 440/Moly/UX10
Itinomonn (maybe someone here can chime in on these?)
Yoshihiro


ETA: a knife is a very personal thing. It's not a one size fits all tool. Different steels, different profiles, weight, height, handle, these are all things only you can find out for yourself.


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr (Mar 4, 2014)

In your price range you've already been given some good advices. They are different in many aspects: different profiles and geometry, different handles and different steels. So basically everything is different yet the are all good options. 

That's going to be your first Japanese knife don't try to make it your last knife  Just get yourself a good all around knife. Hiromoto AS for example. A very good knife. Not the best-death-ninja-blade-in-the-world, but a super knife for newbie. You could later send it to Dave for spa and it would also looks gorgeous. 

I've tried and loved Tanaka's knives (has 3 different knives at the moment) and also really liked Yamawaku gyuto. Great value for the bucks. 

I don't know where have you found 240mm Masamoto KS for 180$ as it usually costs twice more, but it's 
For Takeda you might want to read the recent discussion here about grinding issues.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Mar 4, 2014)

Masamoto KS for 180? Not even used, so you probably mean a different Masamoto line...

True that a knife is a personal thing, some like a knife, some don't like the same knife. I think you have to try and find out for yourself what you like and what you don't like. But this Forum is a great place to find out where to start with your journey!


----------



## ThEoRy (Mar 4, 2014)

4-Finger Chef said:


> For example:
> 
> Misono UX10 Gyuto, 210mm = $200
> Hiromoto AS Gyuto, 240mm = $165
> ...



These are all completely different and unique from one another's characteristics. 

UX10 is a Western handled stainless knife with good fit and finish and is a good cutter with a thin geometry but IMO overpriced. I'd never buy one for myself.

Hiromoto AS is a Western handled knife with carbon core wrapped in stainless cladding giving you the best of both worlds. Ease of sharpening and edge retention of Aogami Super Steel with the ease of maintenance from a stainless knife. It's a little thick out of the box but is still a great first knife considering the price and can be an even better cutter with a trip to the "Spa" 

Masamoto KS is a Japanese handled strictly carbon steel knife which sharpens easily but doesn't have great edge retention. People like this knife for it's classic profile and workhorse nature.

Takeda AS is a Japanese handled carbon knife with a rustic kurouchi finish. These knives are known for their much taller profile and relatively thin geometry. The ones I've used were stupid thin but I've seen a few on here lately that range all over the place, thin, thick behind the edge and just plain clunkers. Maybe they changed their process somewhat recently or QC aint what it was but there ya go.

Anyway, as you can see from just these 4 examples you've chosen each knife has it's own very particular strengths and weaknesses. That's why we're pushing you to be very exact in your responses. So we can better guide you towards the correct purchase for you. What exactly do you need first, and then what do you want second?


----------



## cookinstuff (Mar 4, 2014)

I keep hearing hiro as, and I used one and really disliked it. Too beefy. Was a long time ago though, almost curious to revisit it, but I no longer work with the guy who owned it.


----------



## CoqaVin (Mar 4, 2014)

If you are looking for edge retention I say the Hiromoto AS and supposedly they are making them not as thick at the moment


----------



## ThEoRy (Mar 4, 2014)

cookinstuff said:


> I keep hearing hiro as, and I used one and really disliked it. Too beefy. Was a long time ago though, almost curious to revisit it, but I no longer work with the guy who owned it.



I would say the reason they keep coming up for the most part is the entry price for what you are getting. Aside from that, even if they aren't the thinnest behind the edge ootb, they are still going to beat anything a noobie has previously used out of the water and is a good benchmark to set their expectations for future purchasing experiences.


----------



## XooMG (Mar 4, 2014)

A short answer from someone who's learning: it's not linear.

Slightly longer answer: pick a generic excellent knife, some will say is not the best but it might be ideal for you. Work up some specific preferences with it and either a) enjoy the excellent knife you already have, or b) use the experience to guide your next purchase, which might be more optimal if the first knife isn't a match made in Valhalla.

Floating around some of our vendors for 240mm gyuto in the price range ought to bring up a few that call to you. I kind of like the simple, if kinda primitive, list layout at Epicurean Edge for browsing, but other sites are fine too.


----------



## Chuckles (Mar 4, 2014)

If you are looking at Misono I would steer clear of the UX10 and instead look at the Swedish Steel series. The people I have known with UX10 knives have had a lot of trouble sharpening them. Dragons from the Swedish line are much easier to keep sharp over time.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Mar 4, 2014)

Chuckles said:


> If you are looking at Misono I would steer clear of the UX10 and instead look at the Swedish Steel series. The people I have known with UX10 knives have had a lot of trouble sharpening them. Dragons from the Swedish line are much easier to keep sharp over time.


And back we are at post number 3 !!!


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 4, 2014)

Okay - so if i'm reading this right, there's a healthy mix of objectivity AND subjectivity in any given price range. From an objective register, a Misono UX10 might be a good knife, but at that price range, there's plenty out there its equal that are priced for a lot less. Not quite fool's gold, but maybe a fool's bet.

But in other cases, subjectivity rules. It's not as scientificly determinable. This one 'feels' a certain way, another has a different feel. Maybe one holds a slightly better edge, another is easier to sharpen, and a casual user might never notice the difference, and the $20 / $40 difference between them matters less than how it fits to user's hand.


----------



## mhlee (Mar 4, 2014)

4-Finger Chef said:


> Okay - so if i'm reading this right, there's a healthy mix of objectivity AND subjectivity in any given price range. From an objective register, a Misono UX10 might be a good knife, but at that price range, there's plenty out there its equal that are priced for a lot less. Not quite fool's gold, but maybe a fool's bet.
> 
> But in other cases, subjectivity rules. It's not as scientificly determinable. This one 'feels' a certain way, another has a different feel. Maybe one holds a slightly better edge, another is easier to sharpen, and a casual user might never notice the difference, and the $20 / $40 difference between them matters less than how it fits to user's hand.



No. Feel and personal preference are subjective, but performance characteristics are not subjective; they're objective. If you compare two knives, they will not perform the same. You're making conclusions and generalizations about things you have no idea about because you have no point of reference. :lame:

You didn't answer the Ease of Use question completely despite what you may have thought. Here's the question, with items to consider in parentheses:

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? 

If you answered whether each of these characteristics mattered, people could give you better recommendations because these objective characteristics are unique to each knife. If you don't know what any of the terms mean, you should do a little more reading because they're important characteristics. 

And if you don't care to take the time to read and learn, and want to keep babbling on and on, buy a Shun or a Global.


----------



## Ruso (Mar 4, 2014)

Or buy a laser :rofl2:


----------



## Slypig5000 (Mar 4, 2014)

Since you seem so gung-ho about this here's my knife advice, and this is serious, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. Don't buy a knife. Go to Home Depot, get a Norton double sided aluminum-oxide sharpening stone. Learn to sharpen what you have. Learn some proper cutting, and sharpening technique. Take care of that $38 Walmart knife like its all you can afford. The limitations of the knife should be apparent quickly. You won't destroy a good knife while learning to sharpen. Then go back through this thread, I think that you will understand what people are trying to tell you. I started out with a Chicago Cutlery knife like this. 

Also... brevity is the soul of whit.


----------



## Erilyn75 (Mar 4, 2014)

I found this article and interesting read

http://www.leonardchu.com/blog/index.php/2014/what-my-wifes-feedback-tells-you-about-knives/

And this one 

http://www.leonardchu.com/blog/index.php/2014/test-drive-a-lot-of-knives-to-know-what-works-for-you/


----------



## DTB57 (Mar 4, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> I found this article and interesting read
> 
> http://www.leonardchu.com/blog/index.php/2014/what-my-wifes-feedback-tells-you-about-knives/
> 
> ...



Good articles. Wow, I see that leonardchu is our very own echerub aka Len! Makes more sense why he has so many great knives posted on the WTB forum

Sorry for the slight diversion. Please return to 4-Finger's questions.


----------



## Erilyn75 (Mar 4, 2014)

DTB57 said:


> Good articles. Wow, I see that leonardchu is our very own echerub aka Len! Makes more sense why he has so many great knives posted on the WTB forum
> 
> Sorry for the slight diversion. Please return to 4-Finger's questions.




I didn't even put that together! I'm finding his blog very informative and thought maybe the OP would also enjoy it.


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 4, 2014)

good points


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 4, 2014)

mhlee said:


> No. Feel and personal preference are subjective, but performance characteristics are not subjective; they're objective. If you compare two knives, they will not perform the same. You're making conclusions and generalizations about things you have no idea about because you have no point of reference. :lame:
> 
> You didn't answer the Ease of Use question completely despite what you may have thought. Here's the question, with items to consider in parentheses:
> 
> ...




heh!

Friends...


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 4, 2014)

Slypig5000 said:


> Since you seem so gung-ho about this here's my knife advice, and this is serious, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. Don't buy a knife. Go to Home Depot, get a Norton double sided aluminum-oxide sharpening stone. Learn to sharpen what you have. Learn some proper cutting, and sharpening technique. Take care of that $38 Walmart knife like its all you can afford. The limitations of the knife should be apparent quickly. You won't destroy a good knife while learning to sharpen. Then go back through this thread, I think that you will understand what people are trying to tell you. I started out with a Chicago Cutlery knife like this.
> 
> Also... brevity is the soul of whit.




With my double-sided brick, i can get the cheap knife to pass the 'paper' test. (I run about 15 degrees on it.) I even test on paper towels off the roll: less than blade weight and slice. Should cut clean and without rips. Get rips? got a bad burr spot, try again. The finer side of the brick isn't fine enough for polish work (has to be under 800 grit), but it works for chisels, planers, and the kitchen. And, jokes aside, people really have hurt themselves on the thing when they approached it like it was just 'one of theirs.' Don't respect the edge because they've no cause to fear their own.

That's one reason i feel ready to up the game and invest in a blade worth a set of real stones.

I think the gap in communication is over proper cutting techniques. Cutting salad tonight and thinking about what i've read brought up a few highlights i'd never considered - gee, a couple more inches over the 8 would be handy. gee - this bugger is a wedgie-monster (that's what they mean!) and what a pain that is. always hated food sticking to the blade; a convex blade might be worth a few dollars more ... or at least a feature to explore.


----------



## seattle_lee (Mar 5, 2014)

If you are cutting salad, what you are seeing isn't wedging. Maybe stiction.


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 5, 2014)

seattle_lee said:


> If you are cutting salad, what you are seeing isn't wedging. Maybe stiction.



Naaah ... i don't think so .... Stiction i know. The thing's like a magnet - often don't have to scoop up the pieces on the flat; they're all stuck to it already.

With 'wedging' i mean that the thickness of the blade seems to generate counter-force when slicing down that pinches (acts horizontally against) the flat of the blade. Worst at the point before completion of the cut. Very similar in feel to when you're splitting logs and the wedge gets caught in the split. That's what i assumed was meant, but maybe the culinary version is dif?


----------



## XooMG (Mar 5, 2014)

4-Finger Chef said:


> Naaah ... i don't think so .... Stiction i know. The thing's like a magnet - often don't have to scoop up the pieces on the flat; they're all stuck to it already.
> 
> With 'wedging' i mean that the thickness of the blade seems to generate counter-force when slicing down that pinches (acts horizontally against) the flat of the blade. Worst at the point before completion of the cut. Very similar in feel to when you're splitting logs and the wedge gets caught in the split. That's what i assumed was meant, but maybe the culinary version is dif?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M8wPdX2240
Where they cut the cabbage (looks like) and the Masakage knife kinda gets stuck and the other two go through pretty well? That would be wedging, as per my knowledge of the word.


----------



## ThEoRy (Mar 5, 2014)

Grab a large carrot, use the heel of the knife and just push straight down through it. Does it slice cleanly all the way through or does it go most of the way then snap the rest off? If you're snapping carrots then you're wedging. If you're slicing cleanly with no pop, you're not.


----------



## CompE (Mar 5, 2014)

Looking over the survey you filled out, it looks like your main concerns are a knife that will get sharper easier and hold it's edge longer than whatever you currently have. The fact is, every knife that is recommended here will do that for you. Keep in mind that the harder steel knives recommended here will micro-chip rather than fold; you won't be able to use a traditional kitchen steel on them. This also makes it a bad idea to rock the knife since the edge will dig into your cutting board and break off if you twist it in there. Since rocking is pretty much out of the question, the knives recommended here tend to have less belly than WalMart specials.

Since your answers to the questionnaire pretty much only narrowed things down to price, let's talk tradeoffs to narrow down what you might actually prefer (rather than what you would be willing to live with):

1) Carbon vs. Stainless - Generally, carbon will get the sharpest easiest (there are exceptions). PM steels (a class of stainless) will get very sharp, lose some of its sharpness quickly, but retain 90% sharpness for a very long time. Digging deeper it depends on the heat treatment, specific steel etc... More expensive steels with better heat treatment will do all-around better, but you will still need to settle on a tradeoffs of sharpness vs. edge retention vs. reactivity. Carbon can rust without special care and even stainless will rust if you abuse it.

2) Thick vs. Thin - A thinner knife will wedge less. A thicker knife has more room to convex the face of the blade so it will have better food release. Wedging problems can range from getting completely stuck in hard-shelled squash to splitting carrots before the edge can reach the end of the cut (even a "laser" will wedge apart thick slices of giant carrots). Food release issues can range from slices getting taken for a ride to having to physically pry potato slices off the side. For obvious reasons, a thinner knife will be lighter and feel more nimble. It sounds like you have some wedging concerns so you won't want a thick "workhorse". If "stiction" is a concern at all then you probably won't want a laser either; something more in-between?

3) Western vs. Wa handles - Western handles are what you are accustomed to. Not a lot of steel goes into the Wa handle, and an entry-level Wa handle knife will be made of a very light weight Ho wood, so it is considered to be more nimble. Wa handles also warn others in my house to keep their mitts off. Keep in mind that many Wa handled knives are measured from the tip to the machi, which means that you'd probably want a 240mm Wa if you are accustomed to a 210mm/8" Western.

4) Profile - Honestly, what you are familiar with has more belly than anything that will be recommended here. You won't really know what you want with respect to belly and tip height without trying out different profiles, but you may have an idea if you would prefer something relatively tall vs. short? If you can get to Sur La Table, they should let you try out some Shun, Miyabi and Global knives to get a better idea of what type of handle, weight and profile like.


----------



## toddnmd (Mar 5, 2014)

CompE, that's a nice distillation of a range of factors to consider.


----------



## 4-Finger Chef (Mar 5, 2014)

Ah!  yes, theres definitely wedging (cracking before completion) with thicker / harder product, especially squash.

Concern on price is a matter of getting something worth the cash; dont want to spend and then find out i should have bit the bullet and dropped an extra $20 for the upgrade. Also want to avoid spending more than the tool is worth, compared to its peers.

Watching videos of late that concentrate on PROPER cutting techniques. Been trying them out and i like the results  even with Wally. Happy to leave rocking to cradles and the padded cell in the psych ward.

Think im trending to carbon (no fear on reactivity), but could be due to my bias on stainless from my experience with Wally. (It really fights taking an edge.)

Also think stiction is a bigger concern (for me) than wedging. Right now, stiction is a 24-7 problem during prep. Wedging? Id be real reluctant to put a delicate & expensive instrument through the heart of a hard-shelled anything. Would not be using it for squash, bone-work, or etc. which is only 10% of my daily hands-on, if that. Wally can keep those jobs.

Handle  leaning towards wa, less for weight than how it fits in more conventional / professional cutting techniques. Western seems to favor a brute force approach in firming to the grip and providing leverage. Wa seems to disfavor death-gripping for finesse; a light approach that emphasizes utilizing the blade more than the hand.

just my impression.


----------



## Ruso (Mar 5, 2014)

> Keep in mind that many Wa handled knives are measured from the tip to the machi, which means that you'd probably want a 240mm Wa if you are accustomed to a 210mm/8" Western.


If the knife has a machi, then the blade is measured with the machi. But most gyutos do no have machis so their length is measured from tip to the heel. 
I am not sure about this, but I think most double bevel knives don't have machi for that matter.


----------



## brianh (Mar 5, 2014)

I am a newbie myself. I sold my German knives/Shuns and got my first Japanese knife last June, prob 6-8 more knives since with no end in sight. 

You're way overthinking this and the Shift + quotation keys on your keyboard are unnecessarily suffering. There's no way to predict what will be best for you until you just get something and figure out what you wish it did and what you wish it didn't do. Spend some money on 2-3 stones such as Dave' Martell's 3pc set, or a combo stone; and the $60-ish diamond flatening plate from Japanese Knife Imports.

You'll learn more in one day from a decent starter knife and a sharpening setup than you will in a year's worth of reading on teh_interwebZ.


----------



## ThEoRy (Mar 5, 2014)

Ruso said:


> If the knife has a machi, then the blade is measured with the machi. But most gyutos do no have machis so their length is measured from tip to the heel.
> I am not sure about this, but I think most double bevel knives don't have machi for that matter.



Mostly all Wa handled knives do. Double beveled included.


----------



## CompE (Mar 6, 2014)

Ok, so you want a carbon steel, 240mm Wa-handled gyuto that isn't anemic for under $200 (or there about). Here are some suggestions from different forum approved vendors:

$135 - Gesshin Uraku White #2 from JKI
$175 - Zakuri Blue #1 from JKI
$202 - Itinomonn Kurouchi V2 at JNS
$210 - Zakuri Super Blue from JKI
$220 - Kumagoro Hammer Finish V2 at EE
$221 - Itinomonn Kasumi V2 at JNS

I've no personal experience with V2 steel or any of the knives above for that matter. I'll let others chime in with comments and/or suggestions. The owners of JKI (jbrodia) JNS (maxim) and EE (xdrewsiferx) are all members here, you can PM or call them directly about their wares.


----------

