# Newbie needs some direction on sharpening



## NJDan (Oct 30, 2022)

Hi all. First post here. I have been trying to educate myself on knives by reading some of the info here and I need a little advice. I own a deli/catering business and we rent knives on a monthly basis. When the chef knives need sharpening I use a steel. I also have an electric sharpening stone. You are supposed to sharpen on stone 1 first and then finish with stone 2. Stone 2 broke in short order so I will sometimes use stone 1 and then finish with the steel. This works just OK and the knives are never nearly as sharp as when a new set arrives the next month. I've attached photos of the knives in question. I'm sure they're nothing special. They are used for cleaning a case of chicken breast in the morning, then some veggie prep and at lunchtime cutting of the grilled chicken into cubes for salads. I use those plastic cutting boards.

So in an ideal world I would like to be able to keep the knives as sharp as the day the new set arrives, but at the same time I don't want to give myself another time consuming daily task of sharpening four chef knives. Of course I was thinking of some kind of machine that could do the job and not break like cheap junk. Then, I see these sharpening stones and I have to assume those are superior to the sharpening machines but I don't really know.

Should I be able to keep the knives as sharp as new, or do I have to accept a lower sharpness because I can't quite do it as well as the guys supplying the knives? I would be open to getting new knives along with a means to sharpen them. I assume that a better quality knife will stay sharp longer than a cheaper one.

Hopefully that's enough info to give an idea of what I need help with. Any comments are appreciated!


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## Rangen (Oct 30, 2022)

You are in luck, on multiple fronts.

If you learn to sharpen, you can make knives sharper than almost all knives come when new.

If you get better knives than those, the edge will last a lot longer.


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## KOA (Oct 30, 2022)

In a business setting, with this quality of knife, I’d consider just swapping them out when they are dull. If that is cost prohibitive then perhaps an electic or pull through sharpener with angle guides is the best bridge until the next batch of knives arrive. They will take off alot of metal so take that into consideration if the rental company looks at this.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 30, 2022)

So in my view, what you've got there is soft steel that I'd bet is sharpened like an axe and is thick behind the edge. Whoever you rent them from probably does a thirty second belt sanding job that leaves a lot of burr behind. And pull-through sharpeners just tear and shred the edge so it will only feel sharp for a brief period before the jagged, weak edge collapses.

I don't work in a pro environment and I get a need to have knives you don't have to baby but there are better balances. This seems to me like prime Fibrox knives combined with a Norton India combo stone.

@stringer, @M1k3, @daveb (chefs) are much more qualified to help here.


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## M1k3 (Oct 30, 2022)

I'd recommend learning to sharpen and getting some better quality knives. Once you know how to sharpen, touching up the knife is easy and quick.


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## Jeff (Oct 30, 2022)

NJDan said:


> Hi all. First post here. I have been trying to educate myself on knives by reading some of the info here and I need a little advice. I own a deli/catering business and we rent knives on a monthly basis. When the chef knives need sharpening I use a steel. I also have an electric sharpening stone. You are supposed to sharpen on stone 1 first and then finish with stone 2. Stone 2 broke in short order so I will sometimes use stone 1 and then finish with the steel. This works just OK and the knives are never nearly as sharp as when a new set arrives the next month. I've attached photos of the knives in question. I'm sure they're nothing special. They are used for cleaning a case of chicken breast in the morning, then some veggie prep and at lunchtime cutting of the grilled chicken into cubes for salads. I use those plastic cutting boards.
> 
> So in an ideal world I would like to be able to keep the knives as sharp as the day the new set arrives, but at the same time I don't want to give myself another time consuming daily task of sharpening four chef knives. Of course I was thinking of some kind of machine that could do the job and not break like cheap junk. Then, I see these sharpening stones and I have to assume those are superior to the sharpening machines but I don't really know.
> 
> ...



If they let you sharpen their knives you might consider a Tormek T-1 sharpener. 

They are pretty good for commercial settings, and your staff can use it as needed. set angles and pull through. pretty quick and idiot proof for a kitchen setting using “basic” commercial knives.

Yes, there is a front end investment (about $350) but it might then make sense for your company to buy a few knives too.


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## coxhaus (Oct 31, 2022)

You will want to look at a Worksharp Ken onion knife sharpener if you are looking at Tormek. There are tons of YouTube videos on the Worksharp.


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## mengwong (Oct 31, 2022)

I’m super curious about this as a business case study.

The rental service sets a baseline cost; this article ballparks 15 knives at $180 a month. OP’s needs look like a quarter of that, so maybe the knife service runs at $500 a year?

This is the market that Chef’s Choice goes after with the 2100 model ($600) or the 120 ($150). The Ken Onion Work Sharp is priced in that range too ($160–$200).

Four Victorinox Fibrox would set you back $180.

If my assumptions are right, product/capex is set to beat service/opex here: owning pays for itself in a year or two. Four at most if you’re only swapping knives once a month.

But it all depends on workforce education and change management, i.e. who’s going to read the manual on the sharpener and be “the knife guy/gal/geek”. That’s usually the hard part.

Looking forward to hearing from the actual cafe owners.


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## coxhaus (Oct 31, 2022)

mengwong said:


> I’m super curious about this as a business case study.
> 
> The rental service sets a baseline cost; this article suggests a ballpark of $180 a month for a stable of 15 knives. OP’s needs look like a quarter of that, so maybe the knife service runs at $500 a year?
> 
> ...


The Chef's Choice would be set at 20 degrees. The Worksharp would be variable and I think my German knives cut a lot better at 15 degrees. And if you want you can buy leather strops for the Worksharp which would not be possible for the Chef's Choice.


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## mengwong (Oct 31, 2022)

Good point, I prefer 15 too. Looks like they came out with the 15XV ($160) in response to exactly this feedback from chefs. I don’t know if whoever is cubing the chicken will notice the difference, but I like to think that if it makes their job just that little bit easier, it’s worth it.


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## coxhaus (Oct 31, 2022)

I think the Worksharp is more flexible as you can change belt grits and angles. I don't know anybody with a Chef's Choice 15xv, but I guess time will tell.

My other thought is you will wear out knives faster on fixed diamond stones.

I think the 15 degrees will work much better cutting tomatoes. I grow vine ripen tomatoes in my garden by the hundreds, so I cut lots of tomatoes every year.


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## mengwong (Oct 31, 2022)

NJDan said:


> I don't want to give myself another time consuming daily task of sharpening four chef knives


It’s worth keeping in mind that experts like @stringer are the exception to the rule… most cafe operators just want to get it over with, which is why the Chef’s Choice marketing copy highlights that you can do touch ups in 10 seconds per knife. They don’t want to rub stones the way most people on this forum do. So, literally, different strokes for different folks!


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## coxhaus (Oct 31, 2022)

Ok, the Worksharp might take a minute instead of 10 seconds. Stones maybe 30 minutes which is too long.

You must really pull it fast for 10 seconds. I am thinking 10-inch chef knife.

The Worksharp is still the better option in my mind.


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## blokey (Oct 31, 2022)

What kind of stone sharpening take 30 mins? Most soft stainless just few minutes to get a burr on both side then deburr on a shapton 1000. Even magnacut don't take that long.


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## coxhaus (Oct 31, 2022)

You have to set it up for stone sharpening. If you could do in a couple minutes, then everybody would be doing it.


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## blokey (Oct 31, 2022)

Splash and go stone take like 30 seconds to set up, and really everyone can do it.


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## Delat (Oct 31, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> You have to set it up for stone sharpening. If you could do in a couple minutes, then everybody would be doing it.



Not sure what you mean by “set it up for stone sharpening.” I drop my stone in the holder, spritz it with water, and I’m ready to go in about 10 seconds. 

I only sharpened a wusthof CrMoV once on stones, and it was shockingly fast compared to my higher HRC knives.

Still, for OP I’d probably just recommend using a pull-through electric chef’s choice like the ones linked above. It’s smaller, more compact, easier to learn, and easier to store than a worksharp. I don’t doubt you get better results on your worksharp, though.


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## Jeff (Oct 31, 2022)

Instill think the Tormek T-1 is the tool for your kitchen. 

It takes zero effort from you and zero time from you. It just sits in the kitchen and your staff use it when they need it. Once you set the initial angle when you set it up nobody ever has to adjust it again … Your staff just pull their knives through it when they feel the blades dulling.

You have too many other things to do - let your cooks decide when their knives need sharpened, and let them do it themselves.


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## NJDan (Oct 31, 2022)

Wow, thanks for the quick replies!

Let me say upfront I am assuming there are two camps - one that is fine with machines and another, maybe purists, who prefer sharpening by hand with stones. I could be wrong. I have to think sharpening by hand might give a superior result but the trade off is time and the learning curve to do it right. Whichever way I go I think I will invest in stones and learn to do it by hand... just in case and for my own edification.

It looks like the Tormak might be the ticket. I like the idea that it is a stationary and heavy appliance, rather than the hand held Worksharp. I'm also left handed but I have to believe the Worksharp can be used by lefties? Also, I'm not a fan of Chef's Choice products. My restaurant supply sells their products and my impression is that they are on the cheap end. I think my current sharpener is that brand... the one that broke quickly. I'll have to look again at the name on the sharpener.

Can someone explain the difference between the T1 and the T2? It wasn't clear to me other than maybe they won't warrantee the T1 in a commercial kitchen. Or, by "professional" are they talking about using it for a knife sharpening business, not a deli? I think the $350 is easily justifiable. The much higher price for the T2 is a stretch for what I need, but I would like to understand better if I need it or not. Also, is this something that can be used more than once a day or will it take off too much metal?

Last, unrelated, question. How do you know when a steel is worn out? I have a couple of them and one is kind of football shaped (profile). One side is smoother than the other and I'm thinking I need a new one. Is using a steel still recommended periodically during the day after using the T1 or will that mess up the edge?

Edit: Tormak has a beautifully done, very slick video showing prep cooks working in the kitchen. All is fine until the last few seconds when the guy cleans his knife in his apron. That's considered no bueno. If your knife is dirty you clean it with a bar mop rag. The apron is for keeping a separation between your street clothes and the food, not for cleaning utensils! lol


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## NJDan (Oct 31, 2022)

mengwong said:


> I’m super curious about this as a business case study.
> 
> The rental service sets a baseline cost; this article ballparks 15 knives at $180 a month. OP’s needs look like a quarter of that, so maybe the knife service runs at $500 a year?


Actually, my knife company only charges $8.00 per visit. That gets me 4 chef's knives and 2 paring knives. (Can the T1 sharpen a small paring knife?) We used to use them every two weeks but the knives weren't always that great and so we went with monthly instead. Sometimes the knives came in convex near the heel. You could put the knife on the cutting board and see a gap near the heel, which is a problem. They would come out and replace them, though.

There's not much of an ROI by getting rid of the knife service at $72/year, although eventually there would be some payback. It would be about quality.



mengwong said:


> This is the market that Chef’s Choice goes after with the 2100 model ($600) or the 120 ($150). The Ken Onion Work Sharp is priced in that range too ($160–$200).
> 
> Four Victorinox Fibrox would set you back $180.


You are the second one to recommend these knives. How do they compare to what we are using now, or is it hard to tell? I believe my knife company makes their own knives.



mengwong said:


> If my assumptions are right, product/capex is set to beat service/opex here: owning pays for itself in a year or two. Four at most if you’re only swapping knives once a month.
> 
> But it all depends on workforce education and change management, i.e. who’s going to read the manual on the sharpener and be “the knife guy/gal/geek”. That’s usually the hard part.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing from the actual cafe owners.



The Tormek seems like a reasonable solution. However, I also have two serrated knives that the Tormek doesn't do. OTOH, I've already sharpened away the serrations on those knives and they still work fine for cutting subs and rolls. They only stay sharp for a very short time, though.


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## coxhaus (Oct 31, 2022)

The Worksharp is not used handheld. It sits on a table and you can use it either right or left hand. I think it would be the same size as a T-1 just cheaper cost and more flexible as you can vary angles and belts.

Worksharp makes kitchen model knife sharpeners like the T-1 I just use them as I think the Ken Onion is the best option.


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## mengwong (Oct 31, 2022)

NJDan said:


> You are the second one to recommend these knives. How do they compare to what we are using now, or is it hard to tell? I believe my knife company makes their own knives.


Looking at the Nella web site the Victorinox ($45) will be about three times the price of the Nella ($16), but the quality should match the price – you get what you pay for. A lot of reviewers say it’s the cheapest acceptable knife for commercial use, at least by people who care about these things at all. (There are a couple of funky exceptions e.g. Kiwi). I had my Victorinox for five years and was very happy with it … just gave it away last month to a friend whose main knife snapped in half during sharpening, and will probably get another just to have around for those kinds of situations.

You’ll see much more expensive knives ($100 and up) on that web page but depending on your circumstances you might not want to splurge on anything that could grow legs. Many pro chefs bring their $300+ knives home with them every day in a knife roll.

Reading the specs it looks like the Fibrox comes from the factory at 15 degrees. So if you do get that, and you want to go with a Chef’s Choice, pick the 15XV or model 1520. Or set the Work Sharp or Tormek to 15.

With that setup you should be able to run against the third wheel once a day/week to strop, against the second wheel once a week/month to touch up, and against the first wheel once a quarter/year, or whenever you whack a bone or crunch up against garlic peel, and you see a visible ding in the edge. Whether you end up running your knives through wheel 3 every day or every Sunday really depends on how sensitive you are to dulling. It sounds like you’d prefer more to less often.

Reviews & price guidance at








Why We Love the ChefsChoice Trizor XV Knife Sharpener


The ChefsChoice Trizor XV is the best knife sharpener we’ve found: It’s easy to use, durable, and puts an exceptional edge on many types of knives.




www.nytimes.com












The Best Chef’s Knife


We’ve tested 23 chef’s knives, chopping over 70 pounds of produce since 2013, and found the best chef's knives that are comfortable to use, reliable, and sharp.




www.nytimes.com





I’ve owned Chef’s Choice sharpeners in the past and personally if I were to get an electric I would ask Santa for a Ken Onion Work Sharp, but I’m the type to see multiple belts as “flexible” rather than “yet another thing to lose”, if you’re in a commercial cafe you might see things the opposite way


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## blokey (Oct 31, 2022)

Victorinox is really good for commerical beaters, better than most cheap stuff with really bad stainless steel. If you don't mind AliExpress stuff tho, Xinzuo 440C is surprisingly ok, I bought one of their stuff for my roommate, while it is far from on par with my "slightly" more expensive knives, they cuts well, and 440C is suppose to have longer edge retention. Unlike most Amazon and AliExpress stuff they actually have a good grind. Tho that's just my anecdote. If you can find Victorinox in local restaurants supply with good customer service, go for it. Mercer is another mainstream brand, their slightly higher line use silimat steel as Victorinox. I heard some good thing regarding Dexter too but not so sure about their steel. 
One other option is buy used German stuff off eBay, tho that could be risky.


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## stringer (Oct 31, 2022)

I would recommend not trying to move away from your rental knives all at once. Maybe pick up one Victorinox and a Crystolon or India combination stone. The rental knives are a much thicker stock and they sharpen them on grinders. They do two passes. The first thins the knife near the edge. Then the second pass is for the actual cutting bevel. This sharpens the knives very quickly, and the fat coarse bevels are indestructible, but not very sharp or effective. Victorinox and their knock-offs are on much thinner stock. So they don't require the relief bevel. This makes them much easier to sharpen by hand or on a machine of some sort if that is the direction you want to go. But either way there is a learning curve. I wouldn't want to hold up my operation while I tried to figure it out. But if you just start with one or two knives then there isn't a whole lot of time or money or operational integrity riding on the investment.

I enjoy sharpening expensive fancy knives a lot more, but the vast vast majority of knives I have sharpened in my life are cheap restaurant supply knives with NSF plastic handles. Right now I run a small cafe, but I have also maintained the knives for much larger kitchens with dozens of cooks with the same sorts of strategies.




coxhaus said:


> You have to set it up for stone sharpening. If you could do in a couple minutes, then everybody would be doing it.



There is a learning curve. But a couple minutes per knife is all it takes on stones. Here are the house knives for my current establishment.






It takes me 1-2 minutes per knife to sharpen them. I mostly just use an India Coarse stone and then strop on a kitchen rag. Maybe once every couple of weeks.


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## mengwong (Oct 31, 2022)

NJDan said:


> Whichever way I go I think I will invest in stones and learn to do it by hand... just in case and for my own edification.


Hey guys, prepare the rabbit hole for the “which stone?” question lol

My opinion, pick any one, according to wallet:
Shapton Pro 1000
Naniwa Chosera 800
Shapton Glass 1000
JKI Diamond 1000

Playlist: 

I don’t want to step on the FAQ’s toes so I’ll stop here.


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## PappaG (Oct 31, 2022)

Where are you? I'm in Bergen County. I will loan you stones (and sharpen for free if you need help.. if you are not (yet) ready to take the plunge....


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## coxhaus (Oct 31, 2022)

I think the guy is wrong about MAC knives lasting longer than Wusthof Classic knives sharpening wise in the article on best knives in my way of thinking. I own both and my MAC Pro has a problem with lime juice. After having lime juice on it for a week or so cutting limes it would not cut tomatoes well which I call dull. This was not a problem with my Henckels knives. During the hot summer around August, we always end up having lots of cold lime drinks. A knife gets used to cut limes, so it has lime juice on it for several hours. It gets refreshed with lime juice as more drinks are made. Usually at night the knife gets rinsed and put in the knife block. Then it repeats on and off for days. My wife picked the MAC knife this last time. After a week or 2 I noticed the MAC knife would not cut tomatoes well. My wife switched off the MAC knife is how I knew. We have been doing this for years and I never have noticed a problem with my Henckels knives.

So far, I have not noticed a difference in my Henckels and Wusthof Classic knives other than I prefer some models over others. Sharpening is about the same.

I have since pulled my MAC knife from my active knife block. It is now in the overflow drawer with some other knives. I am trying to find a friend to take it.


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## NJDan (Oct 31, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Hey guys, prepare the rabbit hole for the “which stone?” question lol
> 
> My opinion, pick any one, according to wallet:
> Shapton Pro 1000
> ...



lol. How'd you know? That'll be a little bit down the road once I figure out the rest. For now I'm preoccupied with wondering why these guys are wearing Japanese robes or kimonos -- not exactly sure what they are called.


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## NJDan (Oct 31, 2022)

PappaG said:


> Where are you? I'm in Bergen County. I will loan you stones (and sharpen for free if you need help.. if you are not (yet) ready to take the plunge....


Thanks so much! I think I'm OK for now but I'll keep that in mind.


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## coxhaus (Oct 31, 2022)

I am not sure I would want to use a knife only sharpen on a India course stone. That is too rough for me. Maybe a couple more stones and grits.

In 3 minutes, I can sharpen on 3 belts using my Worksharp and one of them could be a stropping belt.


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## stringer (Oct 31, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I am not sure I would want to use a knife only sharpen on a India course stone. That is too rough for me. Maybe a couple more stones and grits.
> 
> In 3 minutes, I can sharpen on 3 belts using my Worksharp and one of them could be a stropping belt.


For the Japanese knives I finish on soft Arkansas or washita. But just deburring really. For the Victorinox and the restaurant supply knives the coarse India works great. The Nella rental knives above are finished on coarse wheels on a bench grinder in a truck. The coarse India finish would feel like a 12k finish in comparison. Their is not a whole lot of point of spending time putting a polish on these types of knives that are going to see hard plastic boards, aggressive steeling, and commercial prep loads. 








If I was sharpening Japanese knives I would recommend Shapton Glass 500 to a nice 2k stone like Shapton Pro/Glass or Naniwa Super Stone (which is surprisingly fast on cheap stainless).


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## coxhaus (Oct 31, 2022)

My Henckels and Wusthof sure cut better if I hone them at a finer grit. And of course using my Worksharp Ken Onion.

PS
I think I used 4 or5 grits and stropped this knife and it took all of around 5 minutes.


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## M1k3 (Oct 31, 2022)

I sharpen similar knives at work, Cozzini. Coarse India is a godsend for me. A little deburr on fine India and done. Strop on kitchen towel if feeling fancy and have time.


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## mengwong (Oct 31, 2022)

NJDan said:


> For now I'm preoccupied with wondering why these guys are wearing Japanese robes or kimonos


That’d be because the Canadian white dude on the left is, improbably, a 17th generation Yoshimoto bladesmith holding a certificate from the Emperor of Japan 









Carter Cutlery brings 17 generations of fine Japanese knife-making to Hillsboro


Murray Carter is a 17th-generation Yoshimoto bladesmith -- one of a handful of people who can officially trace the lineage of their training back to one of the traditional bladesmithing families of feudal Japan.




www.oregonlive.com


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## miggus (Oct 31, 2022)

A shame he almost stopped creating media. I'm sure his YT channel would be an amazing source of info if he still made videos on a regular basis.


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## M1k3 (Oct 31, 2022)

miggus said:


> A shame he almost stopped creating media. I'm sure his YT channel would be an amazing source of info if he still made videos on a regular basis.


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## blokey (Oct 31, 2022)

M1k3 said:


>



I like his new video

Btw he's mostly on Instagram now, just did an 1 hour knife making challenge thing.
Back to the topic, sometimes people just have very different opinions on what's sharp, for some bruising an onion is desirable while for some others clean cut is a must. For later I'd recommend following stringer's advice, he's in the business and make a some amazing videos.


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## NJDan (Oct 31, 2022)

stringer said:


> I would recommend not trying to move away from your rental knives all at once. Maybe pick up one Victorinox and a Crystolon or India combination stone. The rental knives are a much thicker stock and they sharpen them on grinders. They do two passes. The first thins the knife near the edge. Then the second pass is for the actual cutting bevel. This sharpens the knives very quickly, and the fat coarse bevels are indestructible, but not very sharp or effective. Victorinox and their knock-offs are on much thinner stock. So they don't require the relief bevel. This makes them much easier to sharpen by hand or on a machine of some sort if that is the direction you want to go. But either way there is a learning curve. I wouldn't want to hold up my operation while I tried to figure it out. But if you just start with one or two knives then there isn't a whole lot of time or money or operational integrity riding on the investment.


You've answered a question I didn't ask but was wondering -- why these knives have a bevel while the ones I see online don't. Thanks.

Does anybody know whether there is a difference between the Worksharp vs T1 in end result? The T1 seems easier to use and doesn't require purchase of replacement straps. The downside is there is only one grade of sanding, but will that really matter for me? The toughest task for a knife at my place is trimming a case of chicken breast. If the T1 allows me to trim chicken like a hot knife through butter then I'm happy.

I did notice the max thickness of a blade at 60 mm for the T1, or else you have to remove the guide strap that assures a fixed angle. Some of these rental knives are 70 mm and our chef (the wife) likes the wider knives. Additionally, since there is already a bevel cut into these knives (see photos above) I wonder if that would impact the accuracy of the set angle.

After some time on youtube I think the T2 is overkill for what I need.


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## stringer (Oct 31, 2022)

NJDan said:


> You've answered a question I didn't ask but was wondering -- why these knives have a bevel while the ones I see online don't. Thanks.
> 
> Does anybody know whether there is a difference between the Worksharp vs T1 in end result? The T1 seems easier to use and doesn't require purchase of replacement straps. The downside is there is only one grade of sanding, but will that really matter for me? The toughest task for a knife at my place is trimming a case of chicken breast. If the T1 allows me to trim chicken like a hot knife through butter then I'm happy.
> 
> ...


If I just wanted to add something to work with your existing rental knives I would recommend something we would normally would never recommend on this forum for Japanese knives. Which is a diamond coated steel. They work great with cheap stainless. If you are getting your rentals monthly then the diamond steel is way less investment, less learning curve, and less likely that your rental people will care. I used to maintain battalions of hotel banquet carving slicers this way.


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## NJDan (Oct 31, 2022)

stringer said:


> If I just wanted to add something to work with your existing rental knives I would recommend something we would normally would never recommend on this forum for Japanese knives. Which is a diamond coated steel. They work great with cheap stainless. If you are getting your rentals monthly then the diamond steel is way less investment, less learning curve, and less likely that your rental people will care. I used to maintain battalions of hotel banquet carving slicers this way.


These are the steels I use, mostly the one on the right because I think the other one is worn out. Are these likely to be what you are talking about?


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## NJDan (Oct 31, 2022)

Well, crap...

My wife, our chef, says that she prefers the wide knives (70 mm at the heel) because they cause less stress on her wrist. The T1 only works up to 60 mm. I think I need to call the company and see what they say. I know you can sharpen wide blades but you have to remove part of the guide to do it.


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## mengwong (Nov 1, 2022)

NJDan said:


> My wife, our chef, says that she prefers the wide knives (70 mm at the heel) because they cause less stress on her wrist. The T1 only works up to 60 mm. I think I need to call the company and see what they say. I know you can sharpen wide blades but you have to remove part of the guide to do it.


Have you considered … a cleaver? Seriously, if you want to try something completely different from the rentals, a CCK1303 might be the ticket.


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## blokey (Nov 1, 2022)

Or the Dexter-Russell Chinese chef knife, they are tough as hell in professional environment.


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## NJDan (Nov 1, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Have you considered … a cleaver? Seriously, if you want to try something completely different from the rentals, a CCK1303 might be the ticket.


I've been keeping my wife in the loop as far as what we're talking about. She said after 35 years in various commercial kitchens she has used all the knives you could imagine, from el cheapo's to very expensive ones. She has used the cleaver and couldn't do everything she wanted with it... plus she almost cut her finger off with one!! While she is not happy with the sharpness of the cheaper knives we use, she likes the knives otherwise. 70 mm heel and approx 9" long blade with a good handle. The handle could be better so maybe we'll shop around for something that is just right. She is particular about those specs. An 8" blade is not long enough. I should say she is very good with a knife so she knows what she needs knife-wise. She's not a knife addict. As long as it has the right dimensions and is sharp she's happy.

My job is to find a simple way to keep them real sharp, be it with a stone, diamond steel or sharpening machine.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 1, 2022)

So considering all of that, why not buy a bench top grinder and just do what the rental place does for you on your own? Then you can do it any time you want.

Heck, even a cheap 1"x30" belt sander would probably do.


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## NJDan (Nov 1, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> So considering all of that, why not buy a bench top grinder and just do what the rental place does for you on your own?


You have to remember I'm a newbie. I don't know what they do but it seems I have some options to be able to get similar results.



HumbleHomeCook said:


> Then you can do it any time you want.
> 
> Heck, even a cheap 1"x30" belt sander would probably do.


Well, it has to be located in a commercial kitchen so I can't have too much mess from grinding knives. That's why the T1 looked so good. Seems sturdy, small, clean and easy to use. I'm waiting on a call back from Tormek regarding thicker knives.


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## coxhaus (Nov 1, 2022)

NJDan said:


> I've been keeping my wife in the loop as far as what we're talking about. She said after 35 years in various commercial kitchens she has used all the knives you could imagine, from el cheapo's to very expensive ones. She has used the cleaver and couldn't do everything she wanted with it... plus she almost cut her finger off with one!! While she is not happy with the sharpness of the cheaper knives we use, she likes the knives otherwise. 70 mm heel and approx 9" long blade with a good handle. The handle could be better so maybe we'll shop around for something that is just right. She is particular about those specs. An 8" blade is not long enough. I should say she is very good with a knife so she knows what she needs knife-wise. She's not a knife addict. As long as it has the right dimensions and is sharp she's happy.
> 
> My job is to find a simple way to keep them real sharp, be it with a stone, diamond steel or sharpening machine.


I understand where your wife is coming from. I have been using a knife for a long time and no way would I switch to something different like a Chinese cleaver. I don't want to learn new tricks I just want my 10-inch chef knife, 9-inch will work.


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## mengwong (Nov 2, 2022)

NJDan said:


> 70 mm heel and approx 9" long blade with a good handle


She knows what she wants! To find a 70mm heel, this thread might be useful…


milkbaby said:


> a Takeda 240 gyuto that I got there that is 66mm tall at the heel


… but it’s a few years old so maybe a retailer would be best positioned to narrow down the options, especially to something that’s actually in stock!


foody518 said:


> As far as getting specs, I have found the Knifewear folks to be pretty prompt to emails and messages (within a day or so)


Other vendors:





Who do you buy from?


Hey guys and any gals - We are working on the site some and we would like to see who you are buying from for Knife parts, complete knifes and anything kitchen related. So I'd like to ask you to list who you are finding good to buy from and a link. This can include our sponsors and any...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Now, I hate to second-guess, but those Nella knives are unusually tall… in J-knife land 70mm is about an inch bigger than normal …


David Metzger said:


> 48mm - 52 mm most standard height for 240mm gyuto


Which makes me want to ask … would raising the cutting surface by an inch, be a useful option? I’m thinking either a chopping board base or leg risers.

I only bring this up because


> she prefers the wide knives (70 mm at the heel) because they cause less stress on her wrist



If a tall chef’s knife is definitely what’s needed, I will defer to others who know more about Westerns…


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## stringer (Nov 2, 2022)

The reason why the knives start out so tall is the use of the grinders. Whether you are grinding it or the guy in the van is grinding it, grinding metal will make the knives much shorter very quickly. That 70mm tall blade becomes a 25mm tall blade after just a few dozen sharpenings. The rental place makes money with the rental contract. The knives only cost them about $10 a piece so they don't really care. They probably spend more on abrasives than they do on the knives.


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## Kawa (Nov 2, 2022)

I don't agree stone sharpening only takes a few minutes. Thats very romanticized.

For it to take only a few minutes you need the best parameters:
- you need to be a very good sharpener to start with. No mistakes.
- you need a workplace where you have your gear alreay set up, and dont need to clean it. Like have a waterbasket with a permanent soup in it. 
- You need to be deburr king, otherwise that takes way more time.


Setting things up and cleaning up involves more then sprankling your s&g stone and grind away. Taking your sharpy and color the edge already is lik 53,4 seconds.
Your stones need to dry somewhere, you clean the slurry splashes you created, get rid of your wet towel or whatever... Im sure everyone has his own way and gear thats being used. And we dont all have a permanent sharpening workplace that you can leave as you enter.


A pull through sharpener is simply faster in TS's case.
And with crappy budget rental knives, I wouldnt invest in home sharpening other then a pull through thingy. Especially if you need to do 4 knives a day.
As a beginner, that takes you 2 evenings per day


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## coxhaus (Nov 2, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I don't agree stone sharpening only takes a few minutes. Thats very romanticized.


I totally agree I tried to keep 30 active knives at home but never could keep up using stones. Because I could not keep up the edges got abused. I had to use knives that were sharp not the one I wanted. I was working back then not retired like now. 
The Worksharp changed all that. All my knives stayed sharp. It was so fast to use a Worksharp to sharpen knives.


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## stringer (Nov 2, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I don't agree stone sharpening only takes a few minutes. Thats very romanticized.


I am sorry but I don't agree that sharpening is something that can't be achieved without oodles of specialized equipment and a sharpie. That's very romanticized.


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## coxhaus (Nov 2, 2022)

I would think diamond stones would make sharpening fast but I have been using the Worksharp too many years now to change. Diamond stones were not readily available maybe 17 years ago.

I sharpen all kinds of steels. I have a lot of hunting knives in different steels.

Carbon steel is the only one that I know that will sharpen fast on stones. I banned carbon steel in my kitchen. 40 years ago my kitchen had all carbon steel knives. I have since gotten rid of them all as they were too much trouble in my home kitchen.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 2, 2022)

Simple stainless, in a heavy-use environment should only take a minute or two with a basic stone like an India. And that's with minimal practice. No need for Sharpies, delicate precision, etc.


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## coxhaus (Nov 2, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Simple stainless, in a heavy-use environment should only take a minute or two with a basic stone like an India. And that's with minimal practice. No need for Sharpies, delicate precision, etc.


I assume you are talking 440A as 440C is tougher and harder to sharpen. I have some old Puma and Buck knives 440C and you could sharpen them but it took more than a couple minutes.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 2, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I assume you are talking 440A as 440C is tougher and harder to sharpen. I have some old Puma and Buck knives 440C and you could sharpen them but it took more than a couple minutes.



I'm talking about the knives the OP is using.


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## coxhaus (Nov 2, 2022)

When you said simple stainless thats what jumped out at me. I don't own any 440A knives and I would not own any.
OK, whatever he is using.


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## Benuser (Nov 2, 2022)

stringer said:


> I am sorry but I don't agree that sharpening is something that can't be achieved without oodles of specialized equipment and a sharpie. That's very romanticized.


I guess it all will be depending on the knife's maintenance state and how well you know it. Sharpening knives you're familiar with can be very, very simple, even after some neglect. A heavily neglected unknown knife with a disturbed geometry or serious damage will take much longer.


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## Kawa (Nov 2, 2022)

Don't forget op is stating he is very new to the game.

The ones stating that you don't need sharpy and all the tools are the ones that are sharpening for years and are already very good. They also have their stones ready to use, on the kitchen counter in a drying rack and the stone holder within handreach. Some don't even have to set this up, they are sharpening out of the bare hands when touching up. It takes _them_ only a few minutes, not TS.

In other newbie topics we all recommend sharpy. Why? Because you can't hold an angle well (therefor it takes more time to sharpen) and you can't feel yet if you are sharpening on the edge.
I neither think most starters have their equiment semi-set up within handreach. Most starters have to clean up too, or the misses gets angry. TS want to do 4 knives a day. The whole process takes more then 4x3 minutes. 

I'd like to see a 15 minute movie in a month where TS sharpens 4 dull knives to sharp.


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## blokey (Nov 2, 2022)

You don't even need sharpie after couple tries. The splash and go stones are literally always ready to go, Shaptons don't need much care in drying, wrap them in a towel and be done with it. I think sharpie helps but not always necessary, it helps understanding the geometry of new knives and angles, if you are sharpening the same knives it is not necessary after the first few passes.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 2, 2022)

Kawa said:


> Don't forget op is stating he is very new to the game.
> 
> The ones stating that you don't need sharpy and all the tools are the ones that are sharpening for years and are already very good. They also have their stones ready to use, on the kitchen counter in a drying rack and the stone holder within handreach. Some don't even have to set this up, they are sharpening out of the bare hands when touching up. It takes _them_ only a few minutes, not TS.
> 
> ...



In my opinion you're over thinking it in this case.

This is sort of butcher territory. Soft knives with quick, down and dirty edges off a coarser stone then steel for maintenance. Maybe you scrub the knife on the stone each morning or every few days. No need for a holder. Block of wood or a brick on a towel. India combo or a maybe a Shapton Pro 500. Start at higher angles to get a quick burr and learn. Lower as you get a little experience and start experimenting. This approach is not terribly difficult.

And as @stringer recommends, the OP should start with one or two knives while maintaining the service to give a learning buffer.


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## Benuser (Nov 3, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Reading the specs it looks like the Fibrox comes from the factory at 15 degrees.


I'd be very surprised, or this is a recent development. The steel certainly doesn't hold it, supposed it can take it. The ones I've sharpened out of the box came with an edge well beyond 20dps, which is no bad choice with Krupp's 4110, with these ones being a bit coarser than what Zwilling and Wüsthof deliver. The major work was in removing the prominent shoulders, and so turning the straight bevels into a more convex one.


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## blokey (Nov 3, 2022)

Benuser said:


> I'd be very surprised, or this is a recent development. The steel certainly doesn't hold it, supposed it can take it. The ones I've sharpened out of the box came with an edge well beyond 20dps, which is no bad choice with Krupp's 4110, with these ones being a bit coarser than what Zwilling and Wüsthof deliver. The major work was in removing the prominent shoulders, and so turning the straight bevels into a more convex one.


Sadly this is what a lot of German manufacturers does these days without changing the steel, some Wusthof and Zwilling come with a wire burr because their steel hardly hold it during their automated process.


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## Benuser (Nov 3, 2022)

blokey said:


> Sadly this is what a lot of German manufacturers does these days without changing the steel, some Wusthof and Zwilling come with a wire burr because their steel hardly hold it during their automated process.


I know about the Petec-edges by Wüsthof — 13 degree per side — and have indeed seen the most spectacular wire edges. Wondering how their average consumer will deal with it when the edge fails after three slices. Didn't know Victorinox felt in that same trap.


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## blokey (Nov 3, 2022)

Benuser said:


> I know about the Petec-edges by Wüsthof — 13 degree per side — and have indeed seen the most spectacular wire edges. Wondering how their average consumer will deal with it when the edge fails after three slices. Didn't know Victorinox felt in that same trap.


Guess it's really the marketing, Shun has repeatedly advertised their 15 DPS, and people started to think anything beyond that angle is undesirable, forcing manufacturers to follow suit. Tho they could at least change a more suitable steel before switching to 15 DPS, is really that hard switch to at least AUS-8/440B level steel for their higher lines?


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## mengwong (Nov 3, 2022)

Benuser said:


> I'd be very surprised, or this is a recent development.


I read it on the Internet, so…

In 24 hours I will be able to report actual measurements, please hold.


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## NJDan (Nov 3, 2022)

I have been reading all the posts here and am starting to understand a few things. Tell me where I'm wrong:

1. Per stringer, the Nella knives I'm using are extra thick so that (I guess) they can be handled rougher/dropped without damaging them. They require a large bevel to thin the metal before an actual edge can be put on the knife. It seems to me that purchasing one of these knives would be a bad idea because eventually that bevel they grind in will be lost as I continue to sharpen the edge. I would have to be able to grind that bevel periodically, which will quickly reduce the knife from the desired 70 mm width.

2. I spoke to Tormek about the T1 and they confirmed that it would not work with such wide knives. They recommended the T4 which uses a water bath and costs a couple hundred $ more than the T1. I'm thinking that's not where I want to go.

3. Also per stringer, a diamond steel could be all I need to keep them sharp enough to do what I need. I have to think my steels are worn out. One side is smoother than the other so maybe it is time for a new one.

4. I have some stones but don't know if they are trashed or if they might be useable. I thought I'd try sharpening the knives with these stones and see what happens.






These are pretty old and I think oil was used instead of water. What do you think -- useable?

5. Question.. If I buy a new 70 mm knive that does not have that big bevel in it, how long will it take to wear down say 10 mm if I use a Tormek with 600 grit diamond vs using a stone? I know it might be hard to say but if I sharpen it at the end of every day should I expect it to last more than a year?

Since I'm not in a huge rush on this it might make sense for me to use the same knives, get a new steel and get that coarse India stone. I'm pretty good at mechanical things so I think I could learn to do a serviceable job at stone sharpening. So between that and a new steel I can reevaluate the quality of the edge and then go from there. BTW, will the diamond steel mess up the stone sharpening, or should it maybe even be able to take the place of the stone sharpening?

Thanks again for all the discussion!


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## NJDan (Nov 3, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Which makes me want to ask … would raising the cutting surface by an inch, be a useful option? I’m thinking either a chopping board base or leg risers.


Thanks for the suggestion, but she doesn't think that would help. It seems hard to explain but has something to do with the angle of the wrist as she kind of rocks the knife through the food. Anyway, even if raising the board would allow her to use thinner knives it isn't really practical. She has to cut on two different cutting boards at different locations and risers would complicate things during a lunch rush.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 3, 2022)

You might find this interesting:






Daily Sharpening Pics


Idwal a la Oli w/ pettesuki a la Maillet




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





That's our own pro chef @M1k3 at work.


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## stringer (Nov 3, 2022)

NJDan said:


> I have been reading all the posts here and am starting to understand a few things. Tell me where I'm wrong:
> 
> 1. Per stringer, the Nella knives I'm using are extra thick so that (I guess) they can be handled rougher/dropped without damaging them. They require a large bevel to thin the metal before an actual edge can be put on the knife. It seems to me that purchasing one of these knives would be a bad idea because eventually that bevel they grind in will be lost as I continue to sharpen the edge. I would have to be able to grind that bevel periodically, which will quickly reduce the knife from the desired 70 mm width.
> 
> ...


I would try a new diamond honing rod first. They do wear out over time. I would get a couple of knives not as thick as the Nellas to practice sharpening on. Those look like crystolon type (SiC) oil stones. They will work to put rough working edges on cheap stainless knives.


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## M1k3 (Nov 3, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> You might find this interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Granted, this is after many years of practice and realizing how much time coarse stones save.


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## mengwong (Nov 4, 2022)

stringer said:


> I would get a couple of knives not as thick as the Nellas to practice sharpening on


If you’re planning a trip to the Amazon I’ll suggest you add to the shopping list a 30/60x loupe (and possibly even a handheld digital microscope if you have the patience for fiddly electronic gadgets) so you can see exactly what is going on at the edge and get good feedback about what your stone/steel is doing to it.

Old school sharpening says “just keep going until you can feel the burr” but I found that being able to look is an important complement, because even if you’re doing everything right your progress might not be palpable for the first 100 or 200 or 300 strokes. If you’re not able to get feedback, you’ll feel frustration.


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## mengwong (Nov 4, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Reading the specs it looks like the Fibrox comes from the factory at 15 degrees.





Benuser said:


> I'd be very surprised, or this is a recent development.





blokey said:


> Shun has repeatedly advertised their 15 DPS, and people started to think anything beyond that angle is undesirable, forcing manufacturers to follow suit.





mengwong said:


> In 24 hours I will be able to report actual measurements, please hold.


I have posted measurements at this thread: Victorinox Fibrox: edge analysis of 5.2063.20 and 5.2003.15

Summary: at mid-knife and tip, there appears to be a low-angle 10–12° back bevel convexing to a 15° to 20° microbevel. The heel shows around 10–12° on the left, about 9–22° on the right. So there is a tiny bit of right-hand-bias, if you want to call it that.

I suspect the microbevel is throwing off the readings. Future work: I propose to Sharpie the apex and the, uh, hira, to see what the "kireha" back bevel angle is.

Can the manufacturer help clear up the confusion? … No. "The angle should be between 30 to 40°."



https://www.victorinox.com/medias/?context=bWFzdGVyfHNlcnZpY2V8MTY0NDA4fGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uL3BkZnxoOGIvaDI3LzEzNDA4ODM1MDEwNTkwL1FkLTAwMDc1X0VOLnBkZnxkMDU1ZmRmNmEwNDlmYmZhNTJiOTE2ZTc1NjNhM2Q2N2MyZWNkNjc2ZTcwNjQ3N2Q2YmYzMGEyOGJlM2IyNTcy


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## NJDan (Nov 5, 2022)

mengwong said:


> If you’re planning a trip to the Amazon I’ll suggest you add to the shopping list a 30/60x loupe (and possibly even a handheld digital microscope if you have the patience for fiddly electronic gadgets) so you can see exactly what is going on at the edge and get good feedback about what your stone/steel is doing to it.
> 
> Old school sharpening says “just keep going until you can feel the burr” but I found that being able to look is an important complement, because even if you’re doing everything right your progress might not be palpable for the first 100 or 200 or 300 strokes. If you’re not able to get feedback, you’ll feel frustration.


Actually seeing the edge would be very educational and useful for a newbie. I'm originally an engineer so nerdy ideas like inspecting the edge visually appeal to me! I'll think about that.


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## ITKKF (Nov 5, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Can the manufacturer help clear up the confusion? … No. "The angle should be between 30 to 40°."


According to knives&tools they use 18°: Victorinox Fibrox chef's knife 20 cm 5.2063.20


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## mengwong (Nov 5, 2022)

NJDan said:


> If I buy a new 70 mm knive that does not have that big bevel in it, how long will it take to wear down say 10 mm if I use a Tormek with 600 grit diamond vs using a stone? I know it might be hard to say but if I sharpen it at the end of every day should I expect it to last more than a year?




Above photo shows a knife that was fully dulled and sharpened a couple times a _day_ on Crystolon, for two _years_.

Talk to someone who cuts fiberglass insulation for a living, their idea of a sharpening steel looks like this:





By hand on stones, worst case, you might lose on average maybe 0.1mm of height each time you sharpen at low grit.

Chicken breast is a lot softer than fiberglass. Your dulling is going to be due as much to the board contact as the food. You might hone daily: losing closer to 10 microns.

If you’re touching up at high grit daily and resharpening+thinning at low grit once every one to four weeks you should stay above 60mm for at least three years. Diamond steeling, probably about the same.


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## stringer (Nov 5, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Above post showcases a knife that has been fully dulled and sharpened a couple times a _day_ on Crystolon, for two years.
> 
> Worst case, you might lose on average maybe 0.1mm of height each time you sharpen by hand at low grit.
> 
> If you’re touching up at high grit daily and resharpening at low grit once every one to four weeks you will probably stay above 60mm for at least three years. Diamond steeling, probably about the same.



The crystolon will make it easier to avoid holes in the edge and maintain the knives profile. The diamond coated steel is a cruder instrument. If you use it with a light touch it can help freshen up an edge quickly and the diamonds will cut for a long time. If you use it with a heavy hand then it will wear out quickly and it will decrease edge stability and retention. In combination with a less abrasive steel it can be used to maintain cheap knives indefinitely even under very heavy commercial loads. This is how they keep the knives sharp at many poultry processing plants for example.


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## mengwong (Nov 5, 2022)

If you just buy one Victorinox 10” now, or Mercer 9”, and see how many days the factory edge lasts before it begins to feel unsharp, we can gauge load and hence extrapolate lifetime. The T1 will be able to return it to OOTB condition so that’ll be a valid baseline.

My hunch is that, doing rock chopping on poly, it will last at least a week before feeling noticeably dull.


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## Benuser (Nov 5, 2022)

By removing the shoulders of a Victorinox you may both increase its performance and edge retention as less force will be required to get through dense food and the contact with the board will be correspondingly smoother.


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## ModRQC (Nov 5, 2022)

How would you sharpen X?


So I was thinking about sharpening while sharpening, as I often do, (a Victorinox fibrox in this case, probably my 30th this week) and had an interesting idea for a thread. As most everybody here knows, there is no “best” way to sharpen a knife. There is good and there is bad, but not really a...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





An example...


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## mengwong (Nov 6, 2022)

Another example…





Durability Testing Shi.Han (AKA Ginrei) 240 Gyuto


I bought this knife a few weeks ago on a whim from Strata in Portland, ME. I picked this gal up and decided she needed to come home with me. In this thread I will detail how I prepare a knife for use in a professional kitchen. Specs Before Sharpening: Edge, Heel to Point, 247.5 mm Spine...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## NJDan (Nov 6, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Chicken breast is a lot softer than fiberglass. Your dulling is going to be due as much to the board contact as the food. You might hone daily: losing closer to 10 microns.


Remember, newbie here. I have those crystolon stones and a diamond steel being use on the rental Nella knives. When you say "hone" taking only 10 microns what are you referring to?



mengwong said:


> If you’re touching up at high grit daily and resharpening+thinning at low grit once every one to four weeks you should stay above 60mm for at least three years. Diamond steeling, probably about the same.


Is high grit rougher or smoother than low grit? I'm assuming smoother as I would use low grit to take off more material every once in awhile?


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## NJDan (Nov 6, 2022)

mengwong said:


> If you just buy one Victorinox 10” now, or Mercer 9”, and see how many days the factory edge lasts before it begins to feel unsharp, we can gauge load and hence extrapolate lifetime. The T1 will be able to return it to OOTB condition so that’ll be a valid baseline.
> 
> My hunch is that, doing rock chopping on poly, it will last at least a week before feeling noticeably dull.


That would be a good test but I don't think Victorinox makes a 70+ wide knife. I'd have easier options if she would just use a knife that was a tiny bit narrower. I don't think I'll win that battle. On the other hand, the knives are used mostly by me and one employee who does the chicken, in addition to the wife. He prefers the thinner knife and I can use either one.


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## blokey (Nov 6, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Chicken breast is a lot softer than fiberglass.


Wish some body would tell that to my local deli, I could make a handle out of their chicken breast.


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## NJDan (Nov 6, 2022)

blokey said:


> Wish some body would tell that to my local deli, I could make a handle out of their chicken breast.


If I may brag for a moment we have the most tender grilled chicken (and chicken salad) you are going to find anywhere. It's a combination of the brand of chicken and how we prepare it that does the trick. I have customers who take our chicken on vacation with them because they know whatever chicken they can find won't be as good!


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## mengwong (Nov 6, 2022)

NJDan said:


> When you say "hone" taking only 10 microns what are you referring to?


The polymer wheel on the T1, or any stone >= 2000.



NJDan said:


> Is high grit rougher or smoother than low grit?


Smoother.



NJDan said:


> I'd have easier options if she would just use a knife that was a tiny bit narrower. I don't think I'll win that battle.


Nobody worth marrying was ever easy!

That’s why I thought of a cleaver at first but if she’s happy with the Nellas we should all endeavour to take instruction faithfully. Maybe she’ll come around? As Billy Joel said … “she never gives out and she never gives in // She just changes her mind”…

And if she doesn’t, this forum will have fun finding you something 70mm and above. If the Tormek doesn’t work out there is always the Worksharp.


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## mengwong (Nov 6, 2022)

The Food Lab's Complete Guide to Sous Vide Chicken Breast


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## NJDan (Nov 6, 2022)

mengwong said:


> The Food Lab's Complete Guide to Sous Vide Chicken Breast


Great article! The only thing I would add to that is that with a better (younger) chicken breast you can cook longer without getting as much, or even any, stringiness.


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## NJDan (Nov 6, 2022)

mengwong said:


> If you’re touching up at high grit daily and resharpening+thinning at low grit once every one to four weeks you should stay above 60mm for at least three years. Diamond steeling, probably about the same.


One more question about this. My original interest was being able to keep the knives like new on a daily basis. Admittedly, I guess they don't need to be precisely that sharp, but they do need to be close to that for the greatest ease of use. Are you saying a high grit daily treatment, whether by stone or something like a T1 polymer wheel (stropping?) should accomplish that, and might only need a diamond wheel or diamond steel treatment weekly or so? Currently, I'm using only the steel a few times each day as needed.


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## mengwong (Nov 6, 2022)

A wide range of perspectives appear in this hair-splitting thread… worth a read from the top.
Am I an idiot? - sharpening vs. touch up


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## kman94 (Nov 6, 2022)

A lot of good info in here. I worked at a few places with this service and also in fine dining where we all brought and took care of our own knives. My two cents would be that no matter which method you get to sharpen your own knives, be it stones, a tormek or worksharp, they all have their upkeep and need to be maintained properly. 

I always saw the treatment of any in house sharpening system to be less than ideal. Cooks and chefs, in my opinion, are notoriously bad at taking care of their knives, even sometimes at the Michelin level. There is a cost of maintenance on these things whether it's time or money for belts/stones/replacement parts. 

I would recommend sticking with the service, especially if you're happy with the sharpness they bring them back to you at. Investing in good knives is nice but they still go dull.


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## NJDan (Nov 8, 2022)

kman94 said:


> A lot of good info in here. I worked at a few places with this service and also in fine dining where we all brought and took care of our own knives. My two cents would be that no matter which method you get to sharpen your own knives, be it stones, a tormek or worksharp, they all have their upkeep and need to be maintained properly.
> 
> I always saw the treatment of any in house sharpening system to be less than ideal. Cooks and chefs, in my opinion, are notoriously bad at taking care of their knives, even sometimes at the Michelin level. There is a cost of maintenance on these things whether it's time or money for belts/stones/replacement parts.
> 
> I would recommend sticking with the service, especially if you're happy with the sharpness they bring them back to you at. Investing in good knives is nice but they still go dull.


There's definitely some catching up for me to do with the links in this thread. One thing I'm wondering is whether I can keep the rental knives sharp with the diamond steel or should I get something less aggressive (more like stropping, if that's the term). I would use this several times per day and reserve the steel for every several days? Maybe less is more if the knives come in sharp?


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## mengwong (Nov 9, 2022)

I think the thing that people are trying to find a polite way to say, is that your rental knives aren’t really going from sharp-when-new to dull-after-use. They’re going from dull-when-new to even-duller-after-use.



stringer said:


> the fat coarse bevels are indestructible, but not very sharp or effective.



This is why they are suggesting a Victorinox, so you can see for yourself what sharp-when-new actually looks like. Putting the knife through a sheet of magazine or printer paper is a good way to gauge. When the new knives come in, can they go through paper? How many days can they keep it up without tearing?

Calibrating against that, you’ll have a point of reference for what a desired working edge should be; then you’ll get more out of a Worksharp Ken Onion or a diamond steel or both. A lot of people try to hone a dull knife with huge shoulders against a worn-out steel at the wrong angle and the worst part is they can’t even tell that it’s not working. Getting good feedback is an essential element in any learning loop but with knife sharpening it’s often the most opaque part.

The Ken Onion will leave less to chance than the steel. I’m not saying it’s not worth a try – there are plenty of people who can maintain with a steel – but I’m not confident I could, so I don’t want to overpromise for your situation. At this point I think it’s worth just getting some new kind of sharpener to see if it works for you … there’s no point speculating.


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## Kawa (Nov 9, 2022)

In my limited experience, I find it hard to maintain the right angle when using a rod. It's even more freehand then using a stone, since the rod-holding hand will wobble a lot too.

You will get your knive sharper with a diamond rod, but it's so easy to hone at a too high angle and create a microbevel. Ofcourse this makes your knive sharp again, but at the cost of geometry. If it were your own knives, sooner or later you'll have to zero grind the cutting edge.

On the other hand, maybe rental knives are the best way to practise this


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 9, 2022)

If you use a rod, hold it vertically and pin the tip against a cutting board, preferably with a towel to help prevent slipping. Run the knife vertically down the rod on each side.

Don't do that stupid schwing-schwing-schwing thing you see on TV.


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## mengwong (Nov 9, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> If you use a rod, hold it vertically and pin the tip against a cutting board


After spending some time with the Sharpmaker my new technique is to hold the rod at the desired angle and the knife vertically. But listening and feeling for feedback is still best to know when you’ve got the angle right. As Kawa alluded above, a rod does in one dimension what a stone does in two, so you have much less room for error.

All the lessons I’ve learned from stones, about angle control, pressure control, speed control, do transfer to rods…. but if someone were to start steeling without first stoning, I’d say they were playing on hard mode.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 9, 2022)

Yep, Sharpmaker style works too.


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## Pie (Nov 9, 2022)

@NJDan my friend, pick up those old stones and a new medium coarse one and spend a little bit of time scrubbing.

Experience >>>>>>> theorycrafting in sharpening. Our endpoints and results are based in real world tests, which can only be found by simply doing the thing (sharpening) and learning from what happens. The faster you start removing steel the more you will understand your needs and what solutions are appropriate/ideal. 

Who knows, you might just turn into another one of us rock smelling hair splitting sharpening crazies. 

Have fun sir, it’s a ride that goes for as long as you like


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## mengwong (Nov 9, 2022)

Pie said:


> pick up those old stones and a new medium coarse one and spend a little bit of time scrubbing.


(Pre-emptively channeling @coxhaus to save him the trouble of typing): Or get a Ken Onion.

But yes, it’s time to put the metal to the pebble.


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## NJDan (Nov 12, 2022)

I think I've learned enough to have a direction now. I need a knife the wife likes and some stones to practice sharpening. I'll use the rental Nellas for practice in addition to a new knife. We'll see what happens.

So how do I find a knife in the 70 mm wide range that is 9 or 10 inches long and has a good handle, preferably, rather than those cheap plastic ones? Does Victorinox make such a thing?


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## NJDan (Nov 12, 2022)

Regarding the Tormek, is the bold part true? It doesn't sound right:

The first real knife sharpener for the home chef. Unlike a simpler sharpener, hand lapper or honing steel,* it sharpens the entire bevel of the knife, not just the outer edge*. With the Tormek T-1 Kitchen Knife Sharpener, you’ll never have to send your knives out for sharpening – you can easily get them to professional sharpness yourself in a matter of minutes. At home in your own kitchen.


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## coxhaus (Nov 12, 2022)

Interesting. Does that mean it sharpens a straight V? 

I think I get a little convex being it is a belt system when using the Worksharp which maybe strengthens the thin edge on my knives.


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## stringer (Nov 13, 2022)

NJDan said:


> I think I've learned enough to have a direction now. I need a knife the wife likes and some stones to practice sharpening. I'll use the rental Nellas for practice in addition to a new knife. We'll see what happens.
> 
> So how do I find a knife in the 70 mm wide range that is 9 or 10 inches long and has a good handle, preferably, rather than those cheap plastic ones? Does Victorinox make such a thing?


The Montana Knife Works 10" Chef Knife 8207. Not to be confused with the Montana Knife Company. This was my go to when I was buying these things to resell to my cooks. This was the brand that the knife grinders used. But instead of the restaurant renting the knives, the cooks had to buy their own knives and then the restaurant paid for the grinding service. The grinders charged about $45 for this knife. At the time, I could buy them 3 for $36 from Amazon. So I would buy them and sell them to my employees at cost to save them some money. But that pissed off the grinder guys who stopped coming as often and then I was stuck sharpening everyone's knives. I haven't been able to find them in a few years. But this place seems to have them in stock. More expensive than 5 years ago, but probably still a good deal. 









Montana Knife Works 10" Chef Knife Wooden Handle







www.swankyscookoutsupply.com





If you want to step up to good Japanese steel then this is a great option. 

Kanehide Bessaku Komakiri. I believe that komakiri is Japanese for a wide-ass chef knife. So you could also search for that term on google for more options. These are going to be more expensive than the restaurant supply stuff, but well worth it in my opinion. And it will be easier to teach yourself how to sharpen on quality steel than trying to learn by only sharpening on crappy steel. Once you get the general hang of it, then sharpening anything else becomes much easier.

240 is about 9.5"








Kanehide Bessaku Komakiri Gyuto 240mm


A work-horse style chef's knife and durable for heavy cutting tasks. Rustic style of knife that features a taller blade. Brand: Kanehide 兼秀 Producing Area: Seki-Gifu/ Japan Profile: Komakiri Gyuto Size: 240mm Steel Type: Semi Stainless Steel Steel: Mono Unclassified (Semi Stainless Steel)...




carbonknifeco.com





270 is about 10.6" 








Kanehide Bessaku Komakiri Gyuto 270mm


A work-horse style chef's knife and durable for heavy cutting tasks. Rustic style of knife that features a taller blade. Brand: Kanehide 兼秀Producing Area: Seki-Gifu/ JapanProfile: Komakiri GyutoSize: 270mmSteel Type: Semi Stainless SteelSteel: Mono Unclassified (Semi Stainless Steel)Handle...




carbonknifeco.com





A 10" Victorinox is not 90mm tall, but I would still consider it a pretty tall knife and you can still get them for under $70 if you look hard enough.

Otherwise just search for "extra wide chef knife".

Several brands make them from cheap to expensive, Mercer, Masahiro, Zwilling/Henckels, Miyabi, Wusthof, etc.

You could also try to score something vintage. If you really want to go big and tall, grab a 1960s Clyde Cutlery 12" Army Surplus knife off of ebay. They pop up all the time in relatively good condition, generally for less than $75.









Vintage U.S. Military 1967 12" Chef's Knife CLYDE CUTLERY CO. Vietnam Era SHARP! | eBay


And has a 12" edge. Tang is firm onto handles and is held in place by 3 brass rivets.



www.ebay.com


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## stringer (Nov 13, 2022)

NJDan said:


> Regarding the Tormek, is the bold part true? It doesn't sound right:
> 
> The first real knife sharpener for the home chef. Unlike a simpler sharpener, hand lapper or honing steel,* it sharpens the entire bevel of the knife, not just the outer edge*. With the Tormek T-1 Kitchen Knife Sharpener, you’ll never have to send your knives out for sharpening – you can easily get them to professional sharpness yourself in a matter of minutes. At home in your own kitchen.


This is marketing gobbledy-gook. You can't do anything with this machine that you can't do with a simple sharpening stone. The machine will do it faster, but that is about it.


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## kman94 (Nov 13, 2022)

NJDan said:


> There's definitely some catching up for me to do with the links in this thread. One thing I'm wondering is whether I can keep the rental knives sharp with the diamond steel or should I get something less aggressive (more like stropping, if that's the term). I would use this several times per day and reserve the steel for every several days? Maybe less is more if the knives come in sharp?


Yeah to be frank, a diamond steel is probably almost recommended for these. The aggressiveness will let you get the edge back with honing. It won't be the finest or cleanest edge by any means, but the rental stuff isn't meant to be fine or clean. And it's common for cooks to steel the living crap out of these knives too.


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## NJDan (Nov 16, 2022)

stringer said:


> The Montana Knife Works 10" Chef Knife 8207. Not to be confused with the Montana Knife Company. This was my go to when I was buying these things to resell to my cooks. This was the brand that the knife grinders used. But instead of the restaurant renting the knives, the cooks had to buy their own knives and then the restaurant paid for the grinding service. The grinders charged about $45 for this knife. At the time, I could buy them 3 for $36 from Amazon. So I would buy them and sell them to my employees at cost to save them some money. But that pissed off the grinder guys who stopped coming as often and then I was stuck sharpening everyone's knives. I haven't been able to find them in a few years. But this place seems to have them in stock. More expensive than 5 years ago, but probably still a good deal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed reply. I've been preoccupied this week and haven't been able to respond. Can you or someone tell me again why some knives have a bevel and some don't? Is it simply because some are made thicker and therefore hold up better if dropped? It seems to me that I would have to recut the bevel as the edge slowly eats into the bevel from sharpening over time. Is that not something to be concerned with?


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## NJDan (Nov 16, 2022)

mengwong said:


> I think the thing that people are trying to find a polite way to say, is that your rental knives aren’t really going from sharp-when-new to dull-after-use. They’re going from dull-when-new to even-duller-after-use.


That's kind of why I joined this forum. Sometimes the new knives from the service are sharp but other times they aren't and we have to call them for replacements. Also, some of the knives are worn and have a concave edge near the handle so that you can't cut completely through. I'm not a trained chef so I don't have knowledge of knives, but I can say the Dexter serrated bread knives come very sharp. You can cut through a roll and barely feel that the roll is there. That is the sharpness that I was wanting to regain through a machine or stones or whatever.



mengwong said:


> This is why they are suggesting a Victorinox, so you can see for yourself what sharp-when-new actually looks like. Putting the knife through a sheet of magazine or printer paper is a good way to gauge. When the new knives come in, can they go through paper? How many days can they keep it up without tearing?


I'm having trouble finding a knife she is willing to try. I'm starting to think the knife she is using is the one she wants. Ideally, I'm looking for a knife with the same height and rocking profile as the one she is using now, only with a better handle and maybe no huge bevel.



mengwong said:


> Calibrating against that, you’ll have a point of reference for what a desired working edge should be; then you’ll get more out of a Worksharp Ken Onion or a diamond steel or both. A lot of people try to hone a dull knife with huge shoulders against a worn-out steel at the wrong angle and the worst part is they can’t even tell that it’s not working. Getting good feedback is an essential element in any learning loop but with knife sharpening it’s often the most opaque part.
> 
> The Ken Onion will leave less to chance than the steel. I’m not saying it’s not worth a try – there are plenty of people who can maintain with a steel – but I’m not confident I could, so I don’t want to overpromise for your situation. At this point I think it’s worth just getting some new kind of sharpener to see if it works for you … there’s no point speculating.


I'm willing to try and sharpen with stones instead of the steel to see how that goes, but I'm not sure I should use the old, worn stones I have. Can you suggest something for me to buy and give a try? Also, to be clear, I don't necessarily need to "sharpen" when the edge gets dull, but instead might just hone (same as stropping?) to bring back the edge? If that is right then do I use a finer stone or something else like leather?

Sorry for the newbie questions. I have been watching stone sharpening videos, I promise!


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 16, 2022)

NJDan said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply. I've been preoccupied this week and haven't been able to respond. Can you or someone tell me again why some knives have a bevel and some don't? Is it simply because some are made thicker and therefore hold up better if dropped? It seems to me that I would have to recut the bevel as the edge slowly eats into the bevel from sharpening over time. Is that not something to be concerned with?



All knives have bevels. Now, folks will use the same terms to describe different things so sometimes you have to be sure you know what they're getting at but I like to describe the actual grind of the knife (large flat side) as the primary or blade bevel and then the area you sharpen as the edge bevel.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 16, 2022)

NJDan said:


> That's kind of why I joined this forum. Sometimes the new knives from the service are sharp but other times they aren't and we have to call them for replacements. Also, some of the knives are worn and have a concave edge near the handle so that you can't cut completely through. I'm not a trained chef so I don't have knowledge of knives, but I can say the Dexter serrated bread knives come very sharp. You can cut through a roll and barely feel that the roll is there. That is the sharpness that I was wanting to regain through a machine or stones or whatever.
> 
> 
> I'm having trouble finding a knife she is willing to try. I'm starting to think the knife she is using is the one she wants.  Ideally, I'm looking for a knife with the same height and rocking profile as the one she is using now, only with a better handle and maybe no huge bevel.
> ...



No need to apologize! We all started at some point.  And even us experienced folks are still learning and often asking questions.

Again, for your specific needs, I will defer to @stringer, @M1k3, etc. who have the real-world commercial kitchen experience but for cheap stainless, I personally wouldn't think you'd need much. We suggested the India but I'd think a Shapton Kuromaku 320 or 500 would also work. No need for high grit edges here.


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## M1k3 (Nov 16, 2022)

Cheap stainless doesn't need a high grit stone. Really anything coarse enough to not take forever when your cook has steeled the edge repeatedly like a madman. India (coarse or medium, the coarse/fine combo is a great option!), Shapton Glass 500 (220 would work, just need a lighter touch for final deburring), Shapton Pro 1k, Naniwa 400...


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## ModRQC (Nov 16, 2022)

Shapton Glass 500 for the simplest win for well maintained knives. Might need a bit coarser to degrease not so well maintainted SS that comes into the kitchen, and if it needs to be so well behaved as a SG500 then SG320 just does it. 

Cerax 1K is a bit less cordial in regards to water/permasoaking, but it's possibly the most awesone 1K stone for edges of any kind, however it is lost in this very specific case against the SG500 - redundant to some extent, and nowhere near as much S&G - as in Slap it on & Get it done. . To me, regarding SS knives until thinning is needed, SG320-500-SP2K are essentials.


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## NJDan (Nov 17, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> All knives have bevels. Now, folks will use the same terms to describe different things so sometimes you have to be sure you know what they're getting at but I like to describe the actual grind of the knife (large flat side) as the primary or blade bevel and then the area you sharpen as the edge bevel.


I'm talking about the quarter inch or so wide area next to the edge as the bevel. I don't see this on many of the knives pictured in this forum, unless I'm seeing things wrong.


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## stringer (Nov 17, 2022)

NJDan said:


> I'm talking about the quarter inch or so wide area next to the edge as the bevel. I don't see this on many of the knives pictured in this forum, unless I'm seeing things wrong.
> View attachment 209065



Those knives are sharpened that way by the knife grinder guys. They don't make them like that at the factory. You can follow their example or not. But basically what they are doing is a relief bevel to keep the knife relatively thin and then a cutting bevel that is at a slightly more obtuse angle for toughness. You don't have to do stuff how they do it. It is not the best way and I don't recommend it. If you hand sharpen you can do the relief bevel and the cutting bevel in a lot of different ways.


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## stringer (Nov 17, 2022)

stringer said:


> Those knives are sharpened that way by the knife grinder guys. They don't make them like that at the factory. You can follow their example or not. But basically what they are doing is a relief bevel to keep the knife relatively thin and then a cutting bevel that is at a slightly more obtuse angle for toughness. You don't have to do stuff how they do it. It is not the best way and I don't recommend it. If you hand sharpen you can do the relief bevel and the cutting bevel in a lot of different ways.


This is more what they look like from the factory. They probably come to those guys pretty dull and then they put the "first edge" on them where they begin the process of grinding in the heel frown and making the metal disappear in a cloud of sparks


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## NJDan (Nov 17, 2022)

stringer said:


> This is more what they look like from the factory. They probably come to those guys pretty dull and then they put the "first edge" on them where they begin the process of grinding in the heel frown and making the metal disappear in a cloud of sparksView attachment 209066


Some years back I looked at buying these knives and sharpening on my own. I called the manufacturer of the Nella knives in Washington to inquire where I could buy them. Turns out the guy making the knives is the brother of the guy sharpening them for me. It was a little embarrassing but they were extremely nice and said I could buy them instead of using their service if I wanted. I just decided to leave it alone at the time.


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## NJDan (Nov 17, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Shapton Glass 500 for the simplest win for well maintained knives. Might need a bit coarser to degrease not so well maintainted SS that comes into the kitchen, and if it needs to be so well behaved as a SG500 then SG320 just does it.
> 
> Cerax 1K is a bit less cordial in regards to water/permasoaking, but it's possibly the most awesone 1K stone for edges of any kind, however it is lost in this very specific case against the SG500 - redundant to some extent, and nowhere near as much S&G - as in Slap it on & Get it done. . To me, regarding SS knives until thinning is needed, SG320-500-SP2K are essentials.


It sounds like the SG500 might be a good option as more than one of you mentioned it. I imagine this is kind of like a steel but instead of being round it is a flat plate that allows more control, no? If I use the SG500 does the edge benefit from additional honing or stropping (same thing?) and if so what do I use for that?

Last thing: I posted this photo before and it seems the bicolor stone on the left might be an India stone. Is there any way to know what grit it is and whether it can be cleaned up and made useful again? Before I buy something I wanted to be sure these stones were not going to help and/or are now junk?


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## stringer (Nov 17, 2022)

You can buy the Cozzini knives which are pretty similar on Amazon. Don't know about getting better handles though.


https://www.amazon.com/Chef-Knife-Cozzini-Cutlery-Imports/dp/B085RRX7H5/ref=asc_df_B085RRX7H5/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459434780851&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=18424912484939863381&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008457&hvtargid=pla-944528932485&psc=1#


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## NJDan (Nov 17, 2022)

stringer said:


> You can buy the Cozzini knives which are pretty similar on Amazon. Don't know about getting better handles though.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Chef-Knife-Cozzini-Cutlery-Imports/dp/B085RRX7H5/ref=asc_df_B085RRX7H5/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=459434780851&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=18424912484939863381&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008457&hvtargid=pla-944528932485&psc=1#


Fantastic! Those look like the exact same knives -- I wonder if they are. We sometimes get blue and red ones like in the photo. They are dirt cheap, too. Why do none of these manufacturers give the height of the blade as a spec? It looks like these are 70+mm but I don't see an actual spec.

I have to ask something. What is the main difference between a $20 and a $65 or $100+ knife? I can see that the handle might be nicer and maybe the quality control is better, but does the thing stay sharper for a longer time? Does it get sharper than a cheap knife? What's the main thing you are getting for the extra money?


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## Benuser (Nov 17, 2022)

Think with very cheap stainless a poorly controlled steel composition and an indifferent Heat Treatment, resulting in huge, clustering carbides who make taking a good, stable edge impossible.


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## Delat (Nov 17, 2022)

NJDan said:


> Fantastic! Those look like the exact same knives -- I wonder if they are. We sometimes get blue and red ones like in the photo. They are dirt cheap, too. Why do none of these manufacturers give the height of the blade as a spec? It looks like these are 70+mm but I don't see an actual spec.
> 
> I have to ask something. What is the main difference between a $20 and a $65 or $100+ knife? I can see that the handle might be nicer and maybe the quality control is better, but does the thing stay sharper for a longer time? Does it get sharper than a cheap knife? What's the main thing you are getting for the extra money?



Have you measured your Nella chef to see if it’s actually 70mm? From your first pic it looks more in the 55-60mm range, as do those in the Amazon link.


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## stringer (Nov 17, 2022)

NJDan said:


> It sounds like the SG500 might be a good option as more than one of you mentioned it. I imagine this is kind of like a steel but instead of being round it is a flat plate that allows more control, no? If I use the SG500 does the edge benefit from additional honing or stropping (same thing?) and if so what do I use for that?
> 
> Last thing: I posted this photo before and it seems the bicolor stone on the left might be an India stone. Is there any way to know what grit it is and whether it can be cleaned up and made useful again? Before I buy something I wanted to be sure these stones were not going to help and/or are now junk?
> 
> View attachment 209083


Those guys may or may not work fine. I don't think either is an India. The little one might be a crystolon which is the India's sister stone. I think these types of oil stones are more suitable for cheap stainless than Japanese water stones. You would eat through a SG 500 pretty quick trying to maintain knives like this. I'm on my third one. Wish I had figured out India stones earlier. They are cheap and effective. And it pays to get the name brand Norton stuff.




NJDan said:


> Some years back I looked at buying these knives and sharpening on my own. I called the manufacturer of the Nella knives in Washington to inquire where I could buy them. Turns out the guy making the knives is the brother of the guy sharpening them for me. It was a little embarrassing but they were extremely nice and said I could buy them instead of using their service if I wanted. I just decided to leave it alone at the time.


They had to have been pulling your leg. The knives are stamped Solingen. That's a knife manufacturing city in Germany. These are restaurant supply knives made in a factory.


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## ModRQC (Nov 17, 2022)

This has be bugging me for a while now… and I mean the point of this thread where we can help.


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## stringer (Nov 17, 2022)

NJDan said:


> Fantastic! Those look like the exact same knives -- I wonder if they are. We sometimes get blue and red ones like in the photo. They are dirt cheap, too. Why do none of these manufacturers give the height of the blade as a spec? It looks like these are 70+mm but I don't see an actual spec.
> 
> I have to ask something. What is the main difference between a $20 and a $65 or $100+ knife? I can see that the handle might be nicer and maybe the quality control is better, but does the thing stay sharper for a longer time? Does it get sharper than a cheap knife? What's the main thing you are getting for the extra money?



$20 knife will be thin and flimsy and soft
$65 knife will be thick and soft
$100+ starts getting you into harder steel, more thoughtful grind and geometry, better handles
$300 takes you to the top of the line for factory knives
$300+ you start getting into handmade pieces of functional art


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## stringer (Nov 18, 2022)

You can also buy the Nella knives straight from Nella. 









Nella 10" Chef Medium Blade With Polypropylene Handle


Nella's high quality chef's knives are ideal for cutting up just about anything from vegetables and herbs to carving up steak and chicken.




www.nellaonline.com


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## stringer (Nov 18, 2022)

And they have them with wood handles too








Nella 10" Chef Medium Blade With Wood Handle - 11477


Effortlessly chop up chicken, beef, and fish with Nella's sharp chef knife.




www.nellaonline.com


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## Dan- (Nov 18, 2022)

People are being very polite, but frankly those Nella knives are overpriced garbage, even at $22.50. Basically you can get a (not great either) Mercer Millenia for $18.50 (25% less) with similar specs or a Vic 10” fibrox at $33. On the other hand if that’s what she wants then that’s what she wants. 

Very interesting to see how small biz owners get taken for a ride. You’re essentially leasing a means of turning raw materials into quality food people will buy. Btw $8/month is $96/yr not $72. At $96/yr, you could be in the same ballpark cost (or less!) buying equally bad knives and maintaining them then tossing after a year, but you’d have sharper crappy tools at least. What’s odd is nowhere did I understand you’re concerned about quality of ingredients. 

If you’re getting monthly sharpening on 4 knives, I hope you’ve only got one person (wifey?) prepping, and she’s going through one a week. Your volume can’t be that high though because otherwise by the end of one shift you’d have to be better off cutting with a basting spoon handle. I can only imagine how bruised your product is. If you’ve got 2 or even 4 cooks using those knives, then that’s just awful. 

Given the economics you’ve kinda implied, I’d hit up your supply for a Mercer or Dexter for each person and an accusharp and call it a day. Replace the cheap knives when you’ve lost enough steel to be annoyed.


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## stringer (Nov 18, 2022)

Dan- said:


> People are being very polite, but frankly those Nella knives are overpriced garbage, even at $22.50. Basically you can get a (not great either) Mercer Millenia for $18.50 (25% less) with similar specs or a Vic 10” fibrox at $33. On the other hand if that’s what she wants then that’s what she wants.
> 
> Very interesting to see how small biz owners get taken for a ride. You’re essentially leasing a means of turning raw materials into quality food people will buy. Btw $8/month is $96/yr not $72. At $96/yr, you could be in the same ballpark cost (or less!) buying equally bad knives and maintaining them then tossing after a year, but you’d have sharper crappy tools at least. What’s odd is nowhere did I understand you’re concerned about quality of ingredients.
> 
> ...


I would say more than 90% of the knives in professional kitchens in the US are something like those Nellas sadly. Good knives are very rare in pro settings. Most cooks rely on the equipment that is provided to them which is awful crap or what they can afford to buy on their own, which isn't much better.

I'm always reminded of those commercials for the NCAA where they say, "only 2% of college athletes become professional athletes." With pro kitchen knives, probably less than 2% of the 3 million or so pro cooks in the US use knives like what we covet around here. Most of them don't have any idea that knives like that even exist and they couldn't care less. 

Do whatever makes your wife happy @NJDan.


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## NJDan (Nov 18, 2022)

Delat said:


> Have you measured your Nella chef to see if it’s actually 70mm? From your first pic it looks more in the 55-60mm range, as do those in the Amazon link.


Yes, I did measure the knife at 70 mm. I can't be 100% sure it is the one in the photo that I measured but I think it was. That one has been swapped out since then. I just measured three of the new knives and they are all 65 or 66 mm. That seems fine but why not start with 70 mm if they make them at that width? If not, then the 65 mm probably works. Thanks!


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## NJDan (Nov 18, 2022)

stringer said:


> Those guys may or may not work fine. I don't think either is an India. The little one might be a crystolon which is the India's sister stone. I think these types of oil stones are more suitable for cheap stainless than Japanese water stones. You would eat through a SG 500 pretty quick trying to maintain knives like this. I'm on my third one. Wish I had figured out India stones earlier. They are cheap and effective. And it pays to get the name brand Norton stuff.


So you are recommending the India instead of the SG 500?



stringer said:


> They had to have been pulling your leg. The knives are stamped Solingen. That's a knife manufacturing city in Germany. These are restaurant supply knives made in a factory.


Well, it was a long time ago. Maybe the brother was the distributor or something... or they were pulling my leg!


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## stringer (Nov 18, 2022)

NJDan said:


> So you are recommending the India instead of the SG 500?



I think the India will hold up better. It is less friable than the SG 500. Like I said. I have worn through a couple SG stones doing exactly this type of maintenance and I think the India will hold up to the abuse better. That is what I use. The crystolon is also a very nice option. Basically the India is made of aluminum oxide and the Crystolon is made of silicon carbide. So different abrasives. Both will work fine for what you are doing. But the knockoffs look very similar but don't perform nearly as well. I can't positively identify what you have above. The Crystolon is a little faster, the India has a nicer feeling final edge.


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## NJDan (Nov 18, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> This has be bugging me for a while now… and I mean the point of this thread where we can help.


Not sure I understand... can you rephrase?


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## NJDan (Nov 18, 2022)

Dan- said:


> People are being very polite, but frankly those Nella knives are overpriced garbage, even at $22.50. Basically you can get a (not great either) Mercer Millenia for $18.50 (25% less) with similar specs or a Vic 10” fibrox at $33. On the other hand if that’s what she wants then that’s what she wants.
> 
> Very interesting to see how small biz owners get taken for a ride. You’re essentially leasing a means of turning raw materials into quality food people will buy. Btw $8/month is $96/yr not $72. At $96/yr, you could be in the same ballpark cost (or less!) buying equally bad knives and maintaining them then tossing after a year, but you’d have sharper crappy tools at least. What’s odd is nowhere did I understand you’re concerned about quality of ingredients.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the remarks. What kind of knives do you use at your restaurant and what is your sharpening routine?


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## NJDan (Nov 18, 2022)

stringer said:


> I think the India will hold up better. It is less friable than the SG 500. Like I said. I have worn through a couple SG stones doing exactly this type of maintenance and I think the India will hold up to the abuse better. That is what I use. The crystolon is also a very nice option. Basically the India is made of aluminum oxide and the Crystolon is made of silicon carbide. So different abrasives. Both will work fine for what you are doing. But the knockoffs look very similar but don't perform nearly as well. I can't positively identify what you have above. The Crystolon is a little faster, the India has a nicer feeling final edge.


I think, per your suggestion, that I'll try sharpening the same knives we have been using with the India stone. That way I can gain some experience and see what the result is and then go from there. You mentioned Norton. Can you recommend a specific stone out of their lineup?


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## Dan- (Nov 18, 2022)

When I did this (I have since moved on) it was white-handled Dexters and an accusharp pull through thingy. You sharpen when it gets annoying, but they eat the steel. 

We were a Texas barbecue restaurant that also catered bbq, steaks and crawfish. Not fine dining at all, but the knives were always sharp and had to be as a meat-centric place. 

I’ve since moved on and become successful enough to not need to give up my nights, weekends, holidays, health and sanity. On the other hand, and I grant you this makes my advice suspect, if I’m eating out, it’s fine dining (if only because my food is better otherwise, hands down) and rarely at that.


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## ModRQC (Nov 18, 2022)

NJDan said:


> Not sure I understand... can you rephrase?



Well... TBH it's like a lot of conversations around here that are started in good faith but somewhere along the way, any smarter option proposed gets barred for quite confusing reasons and we're left with more and more improbable complications to a very simple matter.

Let's take this to the beginning. You have these knives you're basically renting. I could not follow much of the real actual initial investment + cost per year it represents to you. I saw the about 75$ USD/year figure but I find that hard to believe. Prices of gas these days no one would travel to you on a monthly basis for basically 6.50$ per month, even less sharpen knives in the process. So I'd quite like to know the real figure of buying or renting these + sharpening services in a single year.

Then, as I would have advised myself, loads of suggestion towards getting better knives and learning to sharpen yourself or use professional services to do it for you. Rentability suggests doing it yourself so that's basically the direction it went on - again, I can follow that logic.

But then your wife loves the Nella. While that could possibly happen in a 8 billions world population, you then proceeded to tell us that she used all kinds of poor and quality knives in her years of experience and she likes these Nella above anything else. I mean, what? You could pay me to have these knives in my home, and I would take the money, but I would not use them ever. Not over a quite well covering set of Victorinox I've got, and these to me are rather poor knives when I'm considering all the much better options I also own - hence why the Victos don't get much daily use except a 6" Chef that's just how I like a petty to be and can be left aside dirty overnight. I mean, it's impossible to have tried a lot of even standardly accepted as not too crappy knives, and prefer these Nella. That kind of "relief bevel" you see them in hardware stores or on Amazon. They're cheap steels, crap knives. Possibly the best thing that can happen to them is being sharpened on a coarse belt 1 time per month - indeed. I know how to sharpen crap steels, and had a few like these Nellas to work on. Same necessary but otherwise not helping much relief bevel. Same crappy feeling in cuts no matter how good an edge you'll put to them. The effort not even worth a squirt of piss.

But then of course we learn that they're supposedly 70mm wide at heel and of course your wife also loves that... easier on the wrist, was that it? I don't even want to get into this because 70mm wide on a standard length Chef must means the crappiest rounded profile that, even when rock chopping, makes about a usable lenght of 2 inches at best on a 8 inches blade. But also because if they're sharpened on a coarse belt once a month, within 6 they're probably 58mm tall, and that could make more sense, but they'll have followed the profile, won't they?

It would cost you about 120$ USD to get 4 Victorinox. Honing them does them good and they can take that torture for a good while. Compared to any Nella, I'm fairly absolutely certain that you could also have them professionally sharpened once a month - by an entity that will understand there's no need to remove so much steel at once - meaning that the about 52mm height of their 20cm Chef would equalize a Nella within a year. They would also cut infinitely better - there's just no argument you could propose that I would believe true to the contrary, and I needed but only one look for a fraction of a second at one of your pics of these Nella to know that.

So now... what? That's just a lazy example, the Victorinox. It's there for the easy argument. But you're a restaurant. Likely having a professional staff around if you mean to stay open and thrive. Can we just get over the "Nella is the best thing for us" deathwish and start looking at a purchase, a minimal investment, and a rotation that actually makes sense at all?

Can't believe we're getting to 5 pages of self-sharpening Nellas for a sharpening noob working in a restaurant. It's either stick with how you're working right now, or let it go altogether and let the pro cooks here direct you to the wisest place you could be looking into to effectively make your daily used tools better without spending all that much more over it.


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## NJDan (Nov 18, 2022)

Dan- said:


> When I did this (I have since moved on) it was white-handled Dexters and an accusharp pull through thingy. You sharpen when it gets annoying, but they eat the steel.


Yep. The Dexters come out of the package extremely sharp, maybe too sharp, but don't last.


Dan- said:


> We were a Texas barbecue restaurant that also catered bbq, steaks and crawfish. Not fine dining at all, but the knives were always sharp and had to be as a meat-centric place.


I have a great BBQ place near me but their building was deemed unsafe and they have been shut down for months.



Dan- said:


> I’ve since moved on and become successful enough to not need to give up my nights, weekends, holidays, health and sanity.


Well, I went from engineering to food and still consider myself successful, even more so. I do breakfast, lunch and catering and sleep just fine. Sanity is another matter...


Dan- said:


> On the other hand, and I grant you this makes my advice suspect, if I’m eating out, it’s fine dining (if only because my food is better otherwise, hands down) and rarely at that.


I would just ask that you not challenge someone's quality control simply because they use cheap knives that apparently bruise the food. I'm not a chef but I looked at my prep today and couldn't find any charley horses.  My wife is an excellent chef who has been at it continuously since starting out in food in 1980. She doesn't care about the knife as long as it does what she needs. She is more concerned with the food quality than the knife quality, which is why we've been at this location for 18 years and have the best food in our area, according to feedback over the years (and my own opinion, lol). My recent interest in knife quality is more my thing than hers, although I know she sometimes complains about the knives. I am an engineer by training, and when I don't have my hands full with the business I try to learn and make improvements to our operation. The knife thing caught my interest and so here I am.

Thanks again for your comments (most of them). I'm learning a lot here. I just wish there were a more straightforward FAQ section so I don't have to ask so many questions. I do appreciate all the feedback.


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## M1k3 (Nov 18, 2022)

Sort of off topic:

I wonder if your wife would like or dislike a Takeda. They are made tall.


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## stringer (Nov 18, 2022)

NJDan said:


> I think, per your suggestion, that I'll try sharpening the same knives we have been using with the India stone. That way I can gain some experience and see what the result is and then go from there. You mentioned Norton. Can you recommend a specific stone out of their lineup?


This is what I use. A Norton India Combo Stone








Norton Combination India Stone


The Norton Combination India stone is an Oil Stone made with aluminum oxide abrasive. These two-sided stones feature a Coarse India side for establishing an edge and a Fine India side for refining the edge.



www.sharpeningsupplies.com


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## NJDan (Nov 18, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Well... TBH it's like a lot of conversations around here that are started in good faith but somewhere along the way, any smarter option proposed gets barred for quite confusing reasons and we're left with more and more improbable complications to a very simple matter.


OK, I can agree with that. Let me say upfront that the first word in my title is "Newby." Now, I'm mostly running my business and am not the prep cook. However, after approx. 23 years I've probably logged more time using a knife (chef's and bread) than many of you. I know how to use a knife but I never had the need to learn the finer points of knife quality and sharpening (the other part of my title). I'm just telling you this so you know I'm not completely ignorant. However, if I have "barred" any smart options it is because I'm drinking out of a fire hose. You guys use a lot of jargon that is not familiar to a newbie and you have to realize it takes time to sort through that. Just looking at some of the suggested sharpening stones required a half-hour of googling and watching product videos. In short, if it looks like I'm wasting people's time here I am not. I'm getting oriented to this world and if you look at my most recent posts I decided on an initial direction.


ModRQC said:


> Let's take this to the beginning. You have these knives you're basically renting. I could not follow much of the real actual initial investment + cost per year it represents to you. I saw the about 75$ USD/year figure but I find that hard to believe. Prices of gas these days no one would travel to you on a monthly basis for basically 6.50$ per month, even less sharpen knives in the process. So I'd quite like to know the real figure of buying or renting these + sharpening services in a single year.


If you don't believe me I don't know what to say. It is $8/month for 4 chef and 2 paring knives, which is $96/year as Dan- pointed out. I don't know why I typed $72. They used to come every two weeks but we cut it to monthly. I think what you are missing is that there are other knife customers in my immediate area so it isn't a trip out just for me. They've been charging that same amount for years. Sound's cheap to me but I'm not going to complain.



ModRQC said:


> Then, as I would have advised myself, loads of suggestion towards getting better knives and learning to sharpen yourself or use professional services to do it for you. Rentability suggests doing it yourself so that's basically the direction it went on - again, I can follow that logic.
> 
> But then your wife loves the Nella. While that could possibly happen in a 8 billions world population, you then proceeded to tell us that she used all kinds of poor and quality knives in her years of experience and she likes these Nella above anything else. I mean, what? You could pay me to have these knives in my home, and I would take the money, but I would not use them ever. Not over a quite well covering set of Victorinox I've got, and these to me are rather poor knives when I'm considering all the much better options I also own - hence why the Victos don't get much daily use except a 6" Chef that's just how I like a petty to be and can be left aside dirty overnight. I mean, it's impossible to have tried a lot of even standardly accepted as not too crappy knives, and prefer these Nella. That kind of "relief bevel" you see them in hardware stores or on Amazon. They're cheap steels, crap knives. Possibly the best thing that can happen to them is being sharpened on a coarse belt 1 time per month - indeed. I know how to sharpen crap steels, and had a few like these Nellas to work on. Same necessary but otherwise not helping much relief bevel. Same crappy feeling in cuts no matter how good an edge you'll put to them. The effort not even worth a squirt of piss.


I started out looking into getting better quality knives and as I did so I was reminded of her required specifications. I just spoke to her again and her reply was like something stringer would say. She said the vast majority of places use crappy knives but if you are good with a knife you can make anything work. She's used all the knives from top to bottom. What you don't understand is what it takes to use a knife for basically 8 hours a day for a couple of decades. She doesn't "love" the Nella. She has used knives for so long that she developed a ganglion cyst on her cutting wrist where the wrist bone sticks out. It is painful but she learned that using a wide knife relieved that problem and the swelling went down. She likes the profile (is that what you call it?) and can get a good rocking motion. Bottom line - no, it isn't perfect, it sometimes comes in not sharp, etc but it works for her. (Actually, despite what some of you say, sometimes they do come in sharp, as in cutting a sheet of paper without much trouble). She won't use an 8" knife -- too short, nor a flat profile cleaver type knife -- can't rock how she likes.


ModRQC said:


> But then of course we learn that they're supposedly 70mm wide at heel and of course your wife also loves that... easier on the wrist, was that it? I don't even want to get into this because 70mm wide on a standard length Chef must means the crappiest rounded profile that, even when rock chopping, makes about a usable lenght of 2 inches at best on a 8 inches blade. But also because if they're sharpened on a coarse belt once a month, within 6 they're probably 58mm tall, and that could make more sense, but they'll have followed the profile, won't they?


Not sure what you mean by "supposedly." You think I come here to make up stories about the width of knife my wife uses??? Like I said in my other post, the knives we just got in are all about 66 mm wide, with the fourth one much thinner. They are 10" from the tip diagonally down to the bottom of the heel.



ModRQC said:


> It would cost you about 120$ USD to get 4 Victorinox. Honing them does them good and they can take that torture for a good while. Compared to any Nella, I'm fairly absolutely certain that you could also have them professionally sharpened once a month - by an entity that will understand there's no need to remove so much steel at once - meaning that the about 52mm height of their 20cm Chef would equalize a Nella within a year. They would also cut infinitely better - there's just no argument you could propose that I would believe true to the contrary, and I needed but only one look for a fraction of a second at one of your pics of these Nella to know that.


I don't know what the minimum spec on height would be for her to use. She probably doesn't, either. The 66 mm's seem fine. I don't know if 52 would work. I'm going to measure that 4th knife tomorrow because I know she won't use that one. If I bought knives I would want to learn to sharpen them myself, be it with a machine or stone. I just converted 20 cm to inches. She won't use a knife that isn't even 8" long. It's frustrating to me because she is so specific about what she will use, but I can't argue with her experience. She knows what she is doing and what works for her ergonomically.



ModRQC said:


> So now... what? That's just a lazy example, the Victorinox. It's there for the easy argument. But you're a restaurant. Likely having a professional staff around if you mean to stay open and thrive. Can we just get over the "Nella is the best thing for us" deathwish and start looking at a purchase, a minimal investment, and a rotation that actually makes sense at all?


Sounds good to me but your easy example won't work for reasons stated above. Can you recommend a 9 or 10 inch knife with the same height and profile of the Nella? I'm all for better quality steel but it has to fit her specs.



ModRQC said:


> Can't believe we're getting to 5 pages of self-sharpening Nellas for a sharpening noob working in a restaurant. It's either stick with how you're working right now, or let it go altogether and let the pro cooks here direct you to the wisest place you could be looking into to effectively make your daily used tools better without spending all that much more over it.


I have a better idea. Next time you see this thread don't click on it, or you could probably also block my profile so you don't have to read about such sophistry. It is possible you don't have all the facts, some of which I just shared. So that's something to consider as well.

It just occurred to me that your "supposedly's" might mean you think I'm a Nella salesman or schill? lol I assure you I am not.


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## NJDan (Nov 18, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Sort of off topic:
> 
> I wonder if your wife would like or dislike a Takeda. They are made tall.


It would have to be 9 or 10 inches and have a profile for rocking. Looks like a lot of the Takeda's are pretty flat. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## stringer (Nov 18, 2022)

NJDan said:


> OK, I can agree with that. Let me say upfront that the first word in my title is "Newby." Now, I'm mostly running my business and am not the prep cook. However, after approx. 23 years I've probably logged more time using a knife (chef's and bread) than many of you. I know how to use a knife but I never had the need to learn the finer points of knife quality and sharpening (the other part of my title). I'm just telling you this so you know I'm not completely ignorant. However, if I have "barred" any smart options it is because I'm drinking out of a fire hose. You guys use a lot of jargon that is not familiar to a newbie and you have to realize it takes time to sort through that. Just looking at some of the suggested sharpening stones required a half-hour of googling and watching product videos. In short, if it looks like I'm wasting people's time here I am not. I'm getting oriented to this world and if you look at my most recent posts I decided on an initial direction.
> 
> If you don't believe me I don't know what to say. It is $8/month for 4 chef and 2 paring knives, which is $96/year as Dan- pointed out. I don't know why I typed $72. They used to come every two weeks but we cut it to monthly. I think what you are missing is that there are other knife customers in my immediate area so it isn't a trip out just for me. They've been charging that same amount for years. Sound's cheap to me but I'm not going to complain.
> 
> ...


Don't worry about it man. Everyone is on their own knife/life journey. There's nothing wrong with wanting to know how to make the tool you would like to use work better. Ask as many questions as you like.


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## mengwong (Nov 19, 2022)

Folks, I have to commend OP for not getting defensive, and staying mature. If I can strike a positive note for a moment, I’d like to point out this could be a golden opportunity to sell his wife on a SERBIAN CLEAVER


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## M1k3 (Nov 19, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Folks, I have to commend OP for not getting defensive, and staying mature. If I can strike a positive note for a moment, I’d like to point out this could be a golden opportunity to sell his wife on a SERBIAN CLEAVER


I hear @Isasmedjan can make a rocking Serbian cleaver?


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## NJDan (Nov 19, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Folks, I have to commend OP for not getting defensive, and staying mature. If I can strike a positive note for a moment, I’d like to point out this could be a golden opportunity to sell his wife on a SERBIAN CLEAVER


That's one badass looking thing! Maybe down the road we can rent different knives from a knife service to see what works.

Thanks for the comment.


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## Kawa (Nov 19, 2022)

Been reading this topic since the beginning. Even though it's not worth more then a wet fart, this is what I think.

I can understand @NJDan. Using rental knives at first, some do get in blunt, need sharpening before the end of the month, starting to look on the internet, find a specific knife forum and start asking questions. Good, thats how interesst starts.

The good thing is, many people answer the questions perfectly and give lots of options for maintaining the rental knives.

BUT, to be fair @ModRQC is right and it's only good that one or two are willing to show you the bigger knife-picture. His story makes sense. His oponion is sincere and has a good place in this topic. It gives a better picture, more arguments to think about, on the question 'what should I do'
Since being a member here my illusion that good chefs use good knives had crumbled. Thx to @stringer and others I now know that many chefs don't care about their tools. High end cooking is mostly done with cheaply replaced tools.

BUT THEN, you give a reason why your wife wants, or probably needs, a crappy geometry in a knive and can't handle a more uniformly recognized geometry.
With knowing that specific reason, we can still say those rentall knives are garbage, but those knives are _good knives_ for the wife.

This makes me think: what your going to do if the rental company switches brand? I can imagine they buy a good batch of knives for their services, but if an other kniveseller has a better deal next year when most of the nella's are done, they can just switch.


So how about some other options, which I think I haven't seen in here yet:
- How about getting 2 or 3 nella knives for the wife, and a little better stuff for the rest (just you? you and how many employees?) The sharpening method is the same for all the knives.
- Have you ever tried a knife with a geometry like this: 








Shiraz Honyaki Gyuto 175mm Eatingtools.com


A shiraz maple handle with copper ferrule flows into the W2 honyaki blade to form another unique, high performance chef knife made by James Oatley.




www.eatingtools.com




The handle is more upwards, which gives me a feel of a taller knife without being taller. More knuckle space. Ofcourse, look for something with more belly because of the rock chopping.

Bottom line for me, after thinking about the pro's and cons for your situation,
The moment you start to try maintaining your own knives with whetstones is the moment you stop renting knives.
To me, renting knives should be al about not needing to sharpen yourself. If your wife really has days where she cuts food for almost 8 hours, those nellas need sharpening every day, twice.
Will probably cost a little more in the end, but what if 8 hours of prepping can be done in 7, because the knive is longer sharp during a shift? What if the hand and wrist dont get as tired during a shift, bacause the cutting gets easier and can be done with less pressure?


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## NJDan (Nov 19, 2022)

stringer said:


> This is what I use. A Norton India Combo Stone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what do you think for these big knives, the 8x2x1? 150 grit is very aggressive, no? I thought the SG 500 would be a 500 grit but even the smoother side on the India is 400. I have a white oil used to lubricate my slicer. Is that OK to use?


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## NJDan (Nov 19, 2022)

stringer said:


> Don't worry about it man. Everyone is on their own knife/life journey. There's nothing wrong with wanting to know how to make the tool you would like to use work better. Ask as many questions as you like.


Thanks, bud! You've been very helpful, especially since you are in the same business.


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## NJDan (Nov 19, 2022)

Kawa said:


> Been reading this topic since the beginning. Even though it's not worth more then a wet fart, this is what I think.
> 
> I can understand @NJDan. Using rental knives at first, some do get in blunt, need sharpening before the end of the month, starting to look on the internet, find a specific knife forum and start asking questions. Good, thats how interesst starts.
> 
> ...


Good post. I appreciate ALL the feedback, even from some who might think I'm wasting people's time. It's a cheap option to take baby steps and just start learning to use a stone effectively and then we'll see about the knives.

See, even wet farts have their place.


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## Delat (Nov 19, 2022)

I’m not a pro chef so this is just speculation. But is it possible that the wrist problems are caused by a lifetime of using dull knives? Is it possible that a consistently sharp knife would reduce the irritation? I know that dull knives take a lot more force for cutting, and that can add up over the years.

Soft steels in a commercial kitchen are likely dull by the end of a shift, much less by the end of the month. Having a hard steel that can make it through a week might help your wife quite a bit, then you sharpen it up at the end of the week instead of waiting for the end of the month.

I don’t really know of any 240x70 gyuto/chefs, but this one came up in a search for the brand @stringer uses. This particular model looks like a heavy 300g beast of a workhorse which might be good or bad, depending on your wife’s preferences.








Kanehide Bessaku Komakiri Gyuto 270mm


A work-horse style chef's knife and durable for heavy cutting tasks. Rustic style of knife that features a taller blade. Brand: Kanehide 兼秀Producing Area: Seki-Gifu/ JapanProfile: Komakiri GyutoSize: 270mmSteel Type: Semi Stainless SteelSteel: Mono Unclassified (Semi Stainless Steel)Handle...




carbonknifeco.com





Also I have an old electric 3-stage pull-through chef’s choice sharpener collecting dust. DM me if you want it for the cost of shipping (probably $15). It puts on a good-enough edge which is better than nothing.


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## NJDan (Nov 19, 2022)

Delat said:


> I’m not a pro chef so this is just speculation. But is it possible that the wrist problems are caused by a lifetime of using dull knives? Is it possible that a consistently sharp knife would reduce the irritation? I know that dull knives take a lot more force for cutting, and that can add up over the years.
> 
> Soft steels in a commercial kitchen are likely dull by the end of a shift, much less by the end of the month. Having a hard steel that can make it through a week might help your wife quite a bit, then you sharpen it up at the end of the week instead of waiting for the end of the month.
> 
> ...


That's a beautiful knife, or at least a nice photo. I have to say I don't think these knives are as dull as you are all saying. They will cut paper when they come in and the steel freshens them up. I can usually cut a tomato with little skin resistance. Having said that, I believe there is room for improvement and what you say about using sharper knives might actually help.

Thanks!


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## NJDan (Nov 19, 2022)

So the knife on the left is 66 mm and the one on the right is 57 mm. I know she won't use the 57 mm so it seems like around 65 is minimum acceptable... in case anyone is interested.


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## NJDan (Nov 19, 2022)

I'll also try sharpening these bread knives (serrations already worn off) using the low grit India stone.


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## Kawa (Nov 19, 2022)

NJDan said:


> I'll also try sharpening these bread knives (serrations already worn off) using the low grit India stone.
> View attachment 209398



Now it's called a meat knife  You might just use the chefs knife for bread now.

I can't imagine bread knives needing to be sharpened that often, that even the whole the serations wear off. 
They slice pieces of brick with it i guess (not saying you do)

Atleast stop renting the bread knives and get your own for 5,99 at wallmart. This is torture (or, good sharpening practice )


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## Kawa (Nov 19, 2022)

NJDan said:


> So the knife on the left is 66 mm and the one on the right is 57 mm. I know she won't use the 57 mm so it seems like around 65 is minimum acceptable... in case anyone is interested.
> View attachment 209397



Just try to find and fit a knife with a more upward handle. The taller one looks like the handle even gets a little downward, but the black is probably the same (angle perspective).
This lowers the feeling of the knife height


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## NJDan (Nov 19, 2022)

Kawa said:


> Now it's called a meat knife  You might just use the chefs knife for bread now.
> 
> I can't imagine bread knives needing to be sharpened that often, that even the whole the serations wear off.
> They slice pieces of brick with it i guess (not saying you do)
> ...


I don't rent these knives. I bought them a year or so ago and they are used heavily. I've been using the half of the Chef's Choice that isn't broken, followed by a steel for sharpening. It does OK but I'm here to get better than OK. I could never use a chef knife for making sandwiches -- to unwieldy in a fast paced setting with two people wielding knives.


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## M1k3 (Nov 19, 2022)

Delat said:


> I’m not a pro chef so this is just speculation. But is it possible that the wrist problems are caused by a lifetime of using dull knives? Is it possible that a consistently sharp knife would reduce the irritation? I know that dull knives take a lot more force for cutting, and that can add up over the years.
> 
> Soft steels in a commercial kitchen are likely dull by the end of a shift, much less by the end of the month. Having a hard steel that can make it through a week might help your wife quite a bit, then you sharpen it up at the end of the week instead of waiting for the end of the month.
> 
> ...


I'd guess the counter height is kind of low. Just speculation.


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## mengwong (Nov 20, 2022)

NJDan said:


> cleaning a case of chicken breast in the morning


I didn’t have a concrete idea what this looked like, until I came across this video just now. Footnoting.


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## NJDan (Nov 20, 2022)

mengwong said:


> I didn’t have a concrete idea what this looked like, until I came across this video just now. Footnoting.



Yes, that's basically it. She's leaving a tendon on the breast that is located next to the fatty tender. Either that, or the supplier removes that tendon first, hard to see. We cut that out because you can often taste it as a rubbery bit in the chicken. We make soup stock and gravy with the scraps, and then the meat drained from that goes to our neighborhood fox. He turns it into fertilizer for my lawn! Win win win.


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## mengwong (Nov 21, 2022)

NJDan said:


> around 65 is minimum acceptable


Found another option! 


matchplay18 said:


> Tip to heal 240mm
> Weight 255g
> Blade height 69mm


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## NJDan (Nov 21, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Found another option!


Yeah but she can't rock with that knife, cool as it looks.


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## NJDan (Jan 1, 2023)

Hi all. Been busy with work and life so haven't posted here. I received the sharpening stone but haven't practiced much with it yet. Neil was nice enough to send me his old Chef's Choice sharpener for the price of a cheeseburger and I've been practicing with that.

Thanks for indulging me with all the questions. I'm sure I'll have more as I gain experience.

Happy New Year to All!


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## mengwong (Jan 6, 2023)

I saw this massive thing from Rhineland and thought of you


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## NJDan (Jan 6, 2023)

mengwong said:


> I saw this massive thing from Rhineland and thought of you



lol, yes, now we're getting somewhere!


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## mengwong (Jan 6, 2023)

Besides the chef knife they also have a vegetable knife that looks super tall, too bad there are no specs on the page.








7" Vegetable Cleaver - Rhineland Cutlery


The ultimate rock chopper! Curved blade perfect for mincing garlic and herbs. Wide blade great for scooping vegetables into the pan.




rhinelandcutlery.com


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## Delat (Jan 6, 2023)

I think this guy has your wife’s name all over it @NJDan - 3” or 76mm tall









Big Boy V2 50% DEPOSIT — Fell Knives


MUST READ ENTIRE DESCRIPTION BEFORE PURCHASE THIS DEPOSIT IS NON REFUNDABLE PLEASE TAKE THIS INTO CONSIDERATION BEFORE MAKING A DEPOSIT Fell x Brad Leone Big Boy V2. The Big Boy is back! For a limited batch of 40. Your choice of satin finish AEBL Stainless steel or 52100 High Carbon. Stabi




www.fellknives.com


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## NJDan (Sunday at 10:33 PM)

Delat said:


> I think this guy has your wife’s name all over it @NJDan - 3” or 76mm tall
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She might need both hands to lift that thing!


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## NJDan (Sunday at 10:34 PM)

Delat said:


> I think this guy has your wife’s name all over it @NJDan - 3” or 76mm tall
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Too short, though.


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## mengwong (Monday at 7:11 AM)

<insert juvenile joke>


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## Benuser (Monday at 9:16 AM)

Delat said:


> I think this guy has your wife’s name all over it @NJDan - 3” or 76mm tall
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is the idea behind such a large deposit, the costs of raw materials can hardly justify? Has this become common practice? All the risks on the buyer's side.


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## M1k3 (Monday at 2:14 PM)

mengwong said:


> <insert juvenile joke>


That's what she said.


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## Delat (Monday at 2:25 PM)

Benuser said:


> What is the idea behind such a large deposit, the costs of raw materials can hardly justify? Has this become common practice? All the risks on the buyer's side.



Only a couple of makers have ever charged me a deposit and it was relatively small and refundable, like $50 or so. 50% non refundable definitely seems unusual and excessive.


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## NJDan (Monday at 8:02 PM)

mengwong said:


> <insert juvenile joke>


My original comment was that she doesn't like anything less than 8 or 9 inches and 7 definitely wouldn't do it for her... but then I didn't write that for obvious reasons. lol.


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## M1k3 (Monday at 9:31 PM)

NJDan said:


> My original comment was that she doesn't like anything less than 8 or 9 inches and 7 definitely wouldn't do it for her... but then I didn't write that for obvious reasons. lol.


That's what she long windedly said.


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