# Toyama Dammy DIY



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

Covid-19 project gets a bit crazy some times 

Here I want to make my own Toyama Dammy. I had one that I really liked, but it didn’t offer anything more than the iron-clad at 2x the cost, so I couldn’t justify keeping it. However, I’ve been missing it ever since I sold it.

The goal is to make a replica by DIY, a true replication from steel to profile to grind, and to achieve the same performance as my ion-clad 210mm Toyama gyuto.

The host is an inexpensive Japanese Dammy clad blue steel with thick spine & taper similar to Toyama, but poor grind & crapy f&f. In another word, it’s an inexpensive but excellent host for a project knife. I am starting with the longer 240mm version so that I can get the Toyama heel height. 

The only thing I want to do different is to make it ~10mm longer, into the 220-225 range that Toyama doesn’t offer, so I won’t be cutting away that extra heel section as marked. I think the kanji says “blue steel edge”, but I’d love if someone can confirm it. 

What you guys think?

PS,
Not planning to disclose the host until I am done.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Sep 11, 2020)

Thank god it's not a kitaeji.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Thank god it's not a kitaeji.



Lol, you are lucky only because I don’t have JML knife funding


----------



## tchan001 (Sep 11, 2020)

Wow, what a project. Looking forward to your progress.


----------



## ian (Sep 11, 2020)

I gotta ask: why don’t you just buy some heat treated blanks? I don’t do this because I don’t have powertools, so removing that much metal would be insane. But you do have powertools, and then you’d get to create something from nothing, rather than altering something else.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

ian said:


> I gotta ask: why don’t you just buy some heat treated blanks? I don’t do this because I don’t have powertools, so removing that much metal would be insane. But you do have powertools, and then you’d get to create something from nothing, rather than altering something else.



I am open to that idea too, but I’ve only seen blanks pre-heat treat. I think the options are very limited even if I can find a blank post heat treat.

Starting with a knife gives me more options as choices are massive, & it saves a lot of grinding work too, unless it’s a Nakiri which pretty much like starting from a blank.

Starting with knives also allows me to explore more knives, like hitting 2 birds with one stone.


----------



## applepieforbreakfast (Sep 11, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I am open to that idea too, but I’ve only seen blanks pre-heat treat. I think the options are very limited even if I can find a blank post heat treat.
> 
> Starting with a knife gives me more options as choices are massive, & it saves a lot of grinding work too, unless it’s a Nakiri which pretty much like starting from a blank.
> 
> Starting with knives also allows me to explore more knives, like hitting 2 birds with one stone.



This is the way...


----------



## RDalman (Sep 11, 2020)

I believe the toyama have a lightly concave bevel to a nailflexing edge, might be difficult to pull off? but exciting to follow. Best of luck


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 11, 2020)

I can't contribute any technical knowledge, but happy to cheer this on.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

RDalman said:


> I believe the toyama have a lightly concave bevel to a nailflexing edge, might be difficult to pull off? but exciting to follow. Best of luck



Thanks! My Kurosaki has a concave bevel, which I am not equipped to do in deed. My Toyama has a convex bevel, thin but not crazy thin behind the edge with a very high up bevel grind. Not all the way up to some like Kato but at least 2/3 up.

It has a slight bump like a potato top topology at 1/3 front on the right side making the grind complex. The left side appears near flat thin convex making it asymmetrical.

Edge is thin but not crazy thin, both my Kurosaki & my Tanaka are thinner behind the edge, yet the Toyama is my best all around gyuto. I hope to be able to reproduce the grind topology, as well as the weight, & the weight distribution in an attempt to duplicate the magic.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> This is the way...



It’s a great way for sure but not what I am interested in. Toyama is my best all round knife, it’s a knife that withstood so many battles at my knife block. Knives that battled Toyama iron-clad for a spot in the knife block & lost includes many big names: Shig, Kato, Mario, Marko, Kipp., Anryu, Youshi, TF Mab, TF Denka, & Toyama stainless clad etc.

I am not really interested in making knives. I am interested in exploring the physics behind The grind of Toyama iron-clad gyuto, & understanding the constraints & comprises of what makes it a great gyuto.

To each their own, but to me, this is the way.


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 11, 2020)

I like this! Waiting in anticipation with your results.


----------



## hennyville (Sep 11, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I am open to that idea too, but I’ve only seen blanks pre-heat treat. I think the options are very limited even if I can find a blank post heat treat.
> 
> Starting with a knife gives me more options as choices are massive, & it saves a lot of grinding work too, unless it’s a Nakiri which pretty much like starting from a blank.
> 
> Starting with knives also allows me to explore more knives, like hitting 2 birds with one stone.


You can buy heat treated blanks from Watanabe, they are not cheap, but i think this is the way.


----------



## Bensbites (Sep 11, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I am open to that idea too, but I’ve only seen blanks pre-heat treat. I think the options are very limited even if I can find a blank post heat treat.
> 
> Starting with a knife gives me more options as choices are massive, & it saves a lot of grinding work too, unless it’s a Nakiri which pretty much like starting from a blank.
> 
> Starting with knives also allows me to explore more knives, like hitting 2 birds with one stone.


Jaredtoddknives.com. He will plasma cut and heat treat.


----------



## Twigg (Sep 11, 2020)

hennyville said:


> You can buy heat treated blanks from Watanabe, they are not cheap, but i think this is the way.


Gotta wait a bit for that though. They are closed for the month.


----------



## juice (Sep 11, 2020)

This is bizarre - I was going to make a post yesterday asking you to start a new project, but I couldn't figure out where to put it, and then the ADHD arrived (about three seconds later) and I forgot it entirely until now.

Excellent news!


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

juice said:


> This is bizarre - I was going to make a post yesterday asking you to start a new project, but I couldn't figure out where to put it, and then the ADHD arrived (about three seconds later) and I forgot it entirely until now.
> 
> Excellent news!



I must have felt your telepathic energy. I got up this morning, the urge to cut-up this knife has been unstoppable


----------



## juice (Sep 11, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I must have felt your telepathic energy. I got up this morning, the urge to cut-up this knife has been unstoppable


WE ARE ALL WINNERS


----------



## McMan (Sep 11, 2020)

@Dave Martell sold some blanks a while back. Not sure if he has any still, but perhaps worth an ask?


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

The first step is probably the easiest, two belts, 60 & 100 grit, half an hour later, I got the profile done.

Looks slightly slimmer than my Toyama because the extra length. I stopped at 224 mm vs. Toyama’s 211 mm.

It’s also 1mm less heel height, 48mm vs Toyama’s 49mm, which also contributes to the slightly more slender look.





The edge is gone


----------



## juice (Sep 11, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> which also contributes to the slightly more slander look.


Given who you are and what you do, this is a brilliant typo


----------



## Twigg (Sep 11, 2020)

@timos Knives was advertising blades a while back too.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

Thanks for all the suggestions about knife blanks!

For this project to stay true to replicating Toyama Dammy, I’d need specifically Damascus clad blue steel, it pretty much rules out any blanks made outside of Japan.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

To explain how I plan to re-grind this knife, I’d like to first point you to a Kato review that was well done, real in-depth, and technical.




__





Redirect Notice






www.google.com





(Side note: I do not agree with the statement about Kochi, Kochi is a much thinner & lighter knife, at 167g, it’s lighter than my Toyama. It bare qualifies as a middle weight, not really a WH knife. It cuts better because it’s thinner, so are many lasers & semi lasers like Kurosaki etc., but lacks the power, solidness & the confidence for edge strength. After comparing to Toyama, I sold my Kochi as well.)

The part that first intrigued me:
Quote: “The knife has a convex grind. However, unlike on most knives with such a grind, the convexity changes over the length of the blade”.

This is what I see on my Toyama iron-clad, what I call Potato Top Topology, is the highest amount of convex is at the center front, feels like a slice of potato top but subtle, I can barely feel it.

Picture below to illustrate my point, it’s on my Toyama iron-clad like a broad gentle hump, but I didn’t feel it on my Toyama stainless clad or the Toyama Dammy, both had a thinner spine. Thinner stock makes it harder to execute such a topology.

For reference:
The spine thickness of this 240mm host is 4mm. Toyama iron-clad 210 is at 3.5mm, my Toyama stainless clad 210 was 3mm, & the Toyama Dammy 210, 2.5mm-3mm IIRC. In short, I have sufficient stock thickness to execute this convex hump topology than the real Toyama Dammy. 

The Toyama iron-clad Mr. Potato Top Convex Grind - Illustration to show where the hump is, I.e. the section with the highest degree of convexity:


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

Another side note, when I finally landed my own 210 Kato WH, it did not have the hump. It weighted only 180g for a 210, but still marked as WH. It’s sad to see the newer knife, at least the one I got, appear to have been dumbed down compared to the one in review.

I suspect that the potato top topology enhances the cutting performance. I intend to reproduce that & thoroughly test it out against my mighty Toyama iron-clad.


----------



## MowgFace (Sep 11, 2020)

How dare you call this a Toyama! HERESY!


----------



## Gjackson98 (Sep 11, 2020)

Good luck ma, I will pin this thread, excited to see how things turn out for you.


----------



## Twigg (Sep 11, 2020)




----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

MowgFace said:


> How dare you call this a Toyama! HERESY!




Toyama Toyama PotaToyama


----------



## Jville (Sep 11, 2020)

Of course, it's not going to be a toyama, because even if you nail the grind its going to be missing a major factor... Ugh... The heat treat. Still a fun project that ill check it out. But if you start calling this a toyama dammy, im going to call you Ali Baba.


----------



## timebard (Sep 11, 2020)

Great to see no time was wasted on starting another project. I eagerly await the arrival of the Faux-yama!


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

Jville said:


> Of course, it's not going to be a toyama, because even if you nail the grind its going to be missing a major factor... Ugh... The heat treat. Still a fun project that ill check it out. But if you start calling this a toyama dammy, im going to call you Ali Baba.



It’s not a Toyama, you happy?
Now beat it, get off my thread or I am going to call you a troll.


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 11, 2020)

Ma_yomama


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 11, 2020)

Jville said:


> Of course, it's not going to be a toyama, because even if you nail the grind its going to be missing a major factor... Ugh... The heat treat. Still a fun project that ill check it out. But if you start calling this a toyama dammy, im going to call you Ali Baba.


To the ignore bin!


----------



## Jville (Sep 11, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> It’s not a Toyama, you happy?
> Now beat it, get off my thread or I am going to call you a troll.


This is definetely not trolling. Toyama does a really good heat treat of blue #2 and to not act like thats a big part of the knife is ridiculous. Still a cool project. Geeze sensitive.


----------



## Jville (Sep 11, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> To the ignore bin!


Whatever, i guess you have to blindly agree.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> To the ignore bin!



Thanks!!! If I ignore a potential troll, trying to be polite here, would he/she still be able to troll my posts?


----------



## soigne_west (Sep 11, 2020)

Are you trying to profit off this project too?


----------



## juice (Sep 11, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Thanks!!! If I ignore a potential troll, trying to be polite here, would he/she still be able to troll my posts?


Yup. All it means is that you won't see the post in full, but you'll still see the stub, telling you you can't see it. It's a pretty pointless exercise, TBH.


----------



## Jville (Sep 11, 2020)

juice said:


> Yup. It's like Twitter, all it means is that you won't see them.


Its interesting, that we are on a knife forum that discusses the intricate details of knives, but for some reason we completely ignore basics like grind and heat treat when discussing what makes these sought after knives like shig and toyama. And want to call me a troll because i disagree.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> Are you trying to profit off this project too?



There’s absolutely nothing wrong with trying to profit by making knives. But no for me, that’ll be a job, I do that at work. As a hobby, my goal is for fun, learning by doing, & meet my own needs, then try to be creative & contribute to the forum community at the same time.

My last two projects ended up being keepers. I still have a self-imposed rule of one-in one-out for my knife block. If I meet the goal of making it equal or better than my Toyama iron-clad, I’ll likely need to sell the Toyama in order to keep this. If I sell this instead, I’ll likely take a loss considering materials & many hours that I’ll be putting in.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

juice said:


> Yup. All it means is that you won't see the post in full, but you'll still see the stub, telling you you can't see it. It's a pretty pointless exercise, TBH.



That’s too bad, I wish the ignored one won’t be able to post reply to the person & continue to harass after being told to beat it.


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 11, 2020)

Really looking forward to this project!


----------



## thebradleycrew (Sep 11, 2020)

@ma_sha1 - consider taking a look at a Cris Anderson gyuto grind as well. He definitely utilizes a Kato-esque (perhaps even more aggressive) potato top profile and it works really well. I have some photos if that would be helpful, but I think seeing one in hand would be the ultimate.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

Would love to see info. of the grind, trying one out would be ever better.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

Jville said:


> Its interesting, that we are on a knife forum that discusses the intricate details of knives, but for some reason we completely ignore basics like grind and heat treat when discussing what makes these sought after knives like shig and toyama. And want to call me a troll because i disagree.


----------



## Jville (Sep 11, 2020)




----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

Jville said:


> View attachment 94279


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 11, 2020)

If a Troll trolls and you don't see it, did the Troll really troll?


----------



## tostadas (Sep 11, 2020)

I'm curious to see how you will achieve the potato. Please document your process. I'll be following as always!


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 11, 2020)

juice said:


> Yup. All it means is that you won't see the post in full, but you'll still see the stub, telling you you can't see it. It's a pretty pointless exercise, TBH.


Not fruitless, except when the ignored person is the newest AND last person to post on a previously read post.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 11, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> If a Troll trolls and you don't see it, did the Troll really troll?



Good point! Done! 
My first ignore ever on a forum, hopefully the last one as well. I’ll no longer be feeding the troll. Feels good actually


----------



## Jville (Sep 11, 2020)




----------



## tostadas (Sep 12, 2020)




----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

tostadas said:


> I'm curious to see how you will achieve the potato. Please document your process. I'll be following as always!



Thanks, I will, I am gonna give up Sat. fishing to work on this tomorrow


----------



## Luftmensch (Sep 12, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Ma_yomama



I love it...

Tomasha?


----------



## ian (Sep 12, 2020)

Jville said:


> View attachment 94282



Fwiw, I think everyone agrees that Toyama steel is great (well, except @panda), and that this knife is not going to be a Toyama. I think the reason @ma_sha1 was annoyed by your post is that *obviously* it’s not going to be a Toyama, it’s just an experiment he’s doing to try to replicate the grind, so why do you have to criticize his projects yet again. Just thought I should say something since noone actually responded to you indicating _why_ they were upset. The memes are all funny, but they don’t help resolve arguments amicably.


----------



## tchan001 (Sep 12, 2020)

A ToyaMASHAcus


----------



## lemeneid (Sep 12, 2020)

If you’re not cutting up a Kikuryu to make this then the thread is no fun


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

ian said:


> Fwiw, I think everyone agrees that Toyama steel is great (well, except @panda), and that this knife is not going to be a Toyama. I think the reason @ma_sha1 was annoyed by your post is that *obviously* it’s not going to be a Toyama, it’s just an experiment he’s doing to try to replicate the grind, so why do you have to criticize his projects yet again. Just thought I should say something since noone actually responded to you indicating _why_ they were upset. The memes are all funny, but they don’t help resolve arguments amicably.



Thanks Ian, right on! 

Yes, it’s a systematic behavior since the Shig. Kasumi project days, to outside that project, he always follows me with his negativity towards what I do. I can recall at least 10 bashing comments prior to this. 

Then he adds if you don’t stop calling it Toyama, “I am gonna call you Ali Baba”, but butt hurt when I return it with if you don’t stop, I am gonna call you a troll. I was merely returning a dose of his own medicine.


If this is the first time, the second time, or even the third time, it wouldn’t have breached my tolerance limit.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> If you’re not cutting up a Kikuryu to make this then the thread is no fun



I am not a crazy rich Asian like JML 
Otherwise, I am gonna pay big bucks for a Kikuryu, cut it up however you want, then potatorize it so the fun could rerun to KKF.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

Ok, let’s bring the thread back on track 

I promised to show the plan:
> The bottom black line is the current Shinogi, > The Blue line is the target high Shinogi like Shihan, which has a Tomama high convex grind minus the potato top.
> My poor rendition of the potato top is there in concentric circles, to show the target topological height difference.
> Just a rough guide, things will change on the fly. The Shinogi line goes lower when it goes through the potato top.
> Horizontally, it’ll be ground into three sections from heel to tip, thin -thick- thin, then blend.

In short, the goal is vertical high convex + horizontal convex peaking at the potato top, a location where I typically land my first cut when cutting. The location is very consistent, I almost always land the first cut at the same spot mid-front.

The weight of the knife aids with the landing & breaking of the skin, after that, either push or pull, there should be reduced resistance as it gets thinner toward both front or back. I think this, at least per my speculation, is part of the reason why my Toyama iron-clad had won so many knife battles to stay in the knife block.


----------



## Jville (Sep 12, 2020)

ian said:


> Fwiw, I think everyone agrees that Toyama steel is great (well, except @panda), and that this knife is not going to be a Toyama. I think the reason @ma_sha1 was annoyed by your post is that *obviously* it’s not going to be a Toyama, it’s just an experiment he’s doing to try to replicate the grind, so why do you have to criticize his projects yet again. Just thought I should say something since noone actually responded to you indicating _why_ they were upset. The memes are all funny, but they don’t help resolve arguments amicably.


Im not "butt hurt" in any way. Just like when ma_sha said he has a 180 shig gyuto on someones classified ad. He does not. He has a chop shop 180 nakiri that is a work of his own. He disregards that grind and heat treat are basics of what make someone's knive actually from that maker. The Ali Babi was meant as a joke, but in hindsight i could see him thinking it was meant more harshly. The written word often lack the nuances of intention and are open for interpretation. All i was saying is a Toyama by any other heat treat would not be a Toyama. The memes were done in response to calling me a troll for expressing a simple opinion. Other than that i applaud him for being so handy and possiblly quite talented. I also find his projects interesting and fun. But in the end they are works of his own, rather than, the makers he claims. That is what ive said the whole time, but others have disagreed and now stooped to calling me a troll over it. Also, let me say, since somehow this is misunderstood in my posts. I am not criticizing him doing the projects.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

Grinding step 1, the front: 

This didn’t take long, maybe 20min on my 1x30 belt sander @ 100 grit. 

Extreme care must be taken as it’ll heat up the tip real quick. I put my finger on the knife where the belt is, so I can sense the heat, I pretty much did water dip cool down with every pass, otherwise it’d take 5-10 min. at most.





The spine shot vs. Shi.han left & Toyama right:
Definitely thin enough already, maybe a bit thinner than Toyama. People, including myself, tends to fall for “Killer distal taper“ with very thin front end. I no longer believe in that. Leaving some meat upfront except the very tip actually helps with the blade balance, especially when doing quick chop, weight at the very front helps the most due to the leverage force from each swing. 

Toyama got it just right IMHO. Not only it tapers only half way, remain the same until the tip to maintain front-weight, it has a “Dolphin nose“, or forehead bump however you want to call it to add extra weight at the front.

However, I had already ground-off the forehead bump from my Toyama because I didn’t like the look. I admit that I was being a bit superficial, some times placing looks over function, shame on me.


----------



## Gjackson98 (Sep 12, 2020)

Ma can you show us some of the tools you used for this? Great job so far


----------



## josemartinlopez (Sep 12, 2020)

By the way can we update our memes? It's 2020 after all!

I had to Google that "Beat It" meme I wasn't even born yet!


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

Gjackson98 said:


> Ma can you show us some of the tools you used for this? Great job so far



Sure, I only have unprofessional cheap grinding tools, nothing to write home about:

> The 1x30 I just used to do the front
> The 3x21 I used for the Shig. Kasumi mod
> The mouse sander


----------



## tostadas (Sep 12, 2020)

When you start grinding away a significant amount of steel, how do you make sure the blade edge remains centered?


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

Switch sides frequently, and keep an eye on the clad line so that they stay even between the two sizes during the process.

Worse problem could arise when you work on one side more than the other, the blade may warp, but usually you can correct it by switch to sanding on the other side.


----------



## Matus (Sep 12, 2020)

This project reminded me of this story for no particular reason 









How Brazil police tackled a factory making fake Lamborghinis and Ferraris


Father and son accused of offering the cars on social media for less than $70,000 – a fraction of the price of the real things




www.theguardian.com


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

Matus said:


> This project reminded me of this story for no particular reason
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That was me, I was living a high life for a while, got busted with faking Lambro, now I only have enough money left to counterfeit a Toyama


----------



## juice (Sep 12, 2020)

Matus said:


> This project reminded me of this story for no particular reason


So it's @ma_sha1 and the non-alcohol Panda? Is that it?


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

juice said:


> So it's @ma_sha1 and the non-alcohol Panda? Is that it?



That’s it, baby Panda is like a son to me, we were partners in crime .


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 12, 2020)

Great fun project! Can’t wait to see the final result!

It’s interesting to learn that your 210 Toyama is 49 mm tall and 3.5 mm at spine. My 240 Wat SS is 55 mm tall and the spine measures 4.6 mm at handle. I only had one 210 gyuto in the past so I kinda forgot how they feel on hand, and the size difference here is larger than I thought.

I also see the Dolphin nose spine on my Wat and I agree with you that the added width on front spine provides additional force and a more natural feeling in quick chopping. It gives me the “fall through food” feel in chopping small produce like garlic and ginger.

I don’t see the potato top topology grind on my Wat though, so I think that’s one of the differences between iron clad and ss clad Toyanabes. Hopefully I can get my hand on an iron clad Toyama one day.

Cheers,


----------



## RockyBasel (Sep 12, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> It’s a great way for sure but not what I am interested in. Toyama is my best all round knife, it’s a knife that withstood so many battles at my knife block. Knives that battled Toyama iron-clad for a spot in the knife block & lost includes many big names: Shig, Kato, Mario, Marko, Kipp., Anryu, Youshi, TF Mab, TF Denka, & Toyama stainless clad etc.
> 
> I am not really interested in making knives. I am interested in exploring the physics behind The grind of Toyama iron-clad gyuto, & understanding the constraints & comprises of what makes it a great gyuto.
> 
> To each their own, but to me, this is the way.


Wow, that is quite a list of opponents the Toyama has prevailed against. Kind of explains my Toyama love. But I noticed you included Denka in the list, I presume you mean the Gyuto - I just ordered mine - will be interesting to see how it compares. I think the Denka love even eclipses Toyama love on this forum.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

RockyBasel said:


> Wow, that is quite a list of opponents the Toyama has prevailed against. Kind of explains my Toyama love. But I noticed you included Denka in the list, I presume you mean the Gyuto - I just ordered mine - will be interesting to see how it compares. I think the Denka love even eclipses Toyama love on this forum.



I can’t speak for others, but nothing is real unless you tried it in your own hands. I had a really good Denka, it was thinned over the already thin grind by previous owner. Put it against my Toyama, it cuts as well vs Toyama but the balance is off, too handle heavy (Yo). I put it against my TF Mab But I didn’t experience the great leap of performance others raved about. Put it against frozen meat where my Mab excelled at, it micro chipped. That was a big surprise, I anticipated TF AS being tougher than TF white, but it didn’t come through for me. The extra thinning might have made it more fragile. 

However, TF knife’s variations are just too much, one knife won’t represent another, I hope your Denka will come through for you.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

Almost done grinding. Unfortunately, I lost the potato top, just a plain hi convex grind. I don’t know what happened, I can’t feel any potato top. I had it at the beginning but very mild, it got smoothed out during the progression


----------



## juice (Sep 12, 2020)

OK, I've lasted until now, but I do need to ask: "Is the 'thank you' trolling the trolls? Enquiring minds want to know."


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 12, 2020)

juice said:


> OK, I've lasted until now, but I do need to ask: "Is the 'thank you' trolling the trolls? Enquiring minds want to know."


Asking for a friend?


----------



## juice (Sep 12, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Asking for a friend?


I was going to say that, but really, who would believe it?


----------



## Kippington (Sep 12, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Ok, let’s bring the thread back on track
> 
> I promised to show the plan:
> > The bottom black line is the current Shinogi, > The Blue line is the target high Shinogi like Shihan, which has a Tomama high convex grind minus the potato top.
> ...


Am I understanding it right when you're saying the "potato top" is a slightly thicker bump, half way down the blade face? I've never seen someone talk about wanting one of these before.
___________________________________

On a separate note, here's a tip for the future (it's too late for this knife): You can change your order of operations to make it a little easier for yourself.
Instead of what you've done here:

Profile edge
Profile spine
Grind faces
Polish
Consider doing it this way:

Profile edge
Grind faces
Polish
Profile spine
Leaving the easier job of the spine until the end (and the heel too, if you want to modify it) makes grinding and polishing of the faces much easier and more consistent.


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 12, 2020)

juice said:


> I was going to say that, but really, who would believe it?


Everyone! It's on the internet!


----------



## Luftmensch (Sep 12, 2020)

F**k,

Thats why I take so long. Trust me guys....

Polish
Grind faces
Doesnt work so well  




Seriously though, wouldnt:

Profile edge
Grind faces
Profile spine
Polish
Be the way to go? So you don't risk scratching up your polish? And you can integrate polishing the spin into your workflow?


----------



## Kippington (Sep 12, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> ...So you don't risk scratching up your polish?


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

Kippington said:


> Am I understanding it right when you're saying the "potato top" is a slightly thicker bump, half way down the blade face? I've never seen someone talk about wanting one of these before.
> ___________________________________
> 
> On a separate note, here's a tip for the future (it's too late for this knife): You can change your order of operations to make it a little easier for yourself.
> ...



Thanks for the tip! 
Yeah, I was trying to make a mid-front hump but lost it.


----------



## Luftmensch (Sep 12, 2020)

Fair cop... I make a lasagne with masking tape at the bottom (so the blade doesnt get sticky) and duct tape at the top (thicker material). Perhaps gaffer tape would be a one shot solution (thick but not sticky).

Also... vinyl tape is great for various things!


----------



## juice (Sep 12, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Fair cop... I make a lasagne with masking tape at the bottom (so the blade doesnt get sticky) and duct tape at the top (thicker material).


Most people use pasta, so kudos to you for stepping outside the culinary norms! (We use cabbage or zucchini, but that's NOTHING like as out there as you.)


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 12, 2020)

So does this 'potato' thing help with food release? Or change the balance noticeably? Or is it just a stylistic quirk of Toyama with no particular function other than that's just how they are...?


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 12, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Fair cop... I make a lasagne with masking tape at the bottom (so the blade doesnt get sticky) and duct tape at the top (thicker material). Perhaps gaffer tape would be a one shot solution (thick but not sticky).
> 
> Also... vinyl tape is great for various things!
> 
> View attachment 94392


You went keto? I'd think eggplant or zucchini would be obvious choices to sub for lasagna noodles?  


juice said:


> Most people use pasta, so kudos to you for stepping outside the culinary norms! (We use cabbage or zucchini, but that's NOTHING like as out there as you.)


You don't use tape??


----------



## James (Sep 12, 2020)

cotedupy said:


> So does this 'potato' thing help with food release? Or change the balance noticeably? Or is it just a stylistic quirk of Toyama with no particular function other than that's just how they are...?


My saji r2 had something similar. It was very thick and didn't do well on much else besides soft veggies, but chopping was pretty amazing. When I thinned it, the primary bevel skipped up 3/4 of the blade face


----------



## juice (Sep 12, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> You went keto? I'd think eggplant or zucchini would be obvious choices to sub for lasagna noodles?


Seriously, cabbage is best 



M1k3 said:


> You don't use tape??


I'm beginning to think I'm doing this COMPLETELY wrong, TBH.


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 12, 2020)

juice said:


> Seriously, cabbage is best
> 
> 
> I'm beginning to think I'm doing this COMPLETELY wrong, TBH.


Went the Italian route. I can definitely see cabbage working.

Yes, my friend, I think you are


----------



## thebradleycrew (Sep 12, 2020)

@ma_sha1 Think you can see the "potato" on these shots. Two different CJA's.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

cotedupy said:


> So does this 'potato' thing help with food release? Or change the balance noticeably? Or is it just a stylistic quirk of Toyama with no particular function other than that's just how they are...?



Probably does a little bit, but I was more intrigued if it helps with cutting. Once the cut lands on the potato top, i’d imagine it gets easier for push or pull cuts ?


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 12, 2020)

thebradleycrew said:


> @ma_sha1 Think you can see the "potato" on these shots. Two different CJA's.
> View attachment 94396
> View attachment 94403



Thanks, it looks more obvious on the shorty. The Toyama hump is much less obvious, it’s not visible, after I removed the forehead hump, it’s even less obvious, I can barely feel it by running my finger cross.


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 12, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Probably does a little bit, but I was more intrigued if it helps with cutting. Once the cut lands on the potato top, i’d imagine it gets easier for push or pull cuts ?



Ah yeah, that'd probably make sense too. Interesting!


----------



## Honyaki (Sep 13, 2020)

Our ma_sha_1 who art a PhD, hallowed be thy shig.
Thy angle grinder come, thy mods be done on r/chefknives as they are on KKF.
Give us this day our daily drama, and forgive us our sarcasm, as we forgive those who have forced us into it.
Lead us not into overpriced yo-converted tanakas, but deliver us proper good DIY.

For thine is the renaming, the clickbaiting, and the overheating
For ever and ever.
AMEN 

glws glws



















(for legal reasons that's a joke)


----------



## Kippington (Sep 13, 2020)

thebradleycrew said:


> @ma_sha1 Think you can see the "potato" on these shots. Two different CJA's.
> View attachment 94396
> View attachment 94403


I honestly believe you are mistaken, that's no hump. What you are seeing is a movement of the 'shinogi' as a by-product of the distal taper. It might also be the case on the Toyama, not sure though...


----------



## TRPV4 (Sep 13, 2020)

@Kippington that’s what you get when you try and flat grind a knife that’s thicker at the heel right?


----------



## Kippington (Sep 13, 2020)

TRPV4 said:


> @Kippington that’s what you get when you try and flat grind a knife that’s thicker at the heel right?


Correct, and the 'shinogi' goes back up towards the spine at the tip if the grind gets thinner, which happens quite often (a thinner grind at the tip than the heel).


----------



## wombat (Sep 13, 2020)

Interesting project, good luck!


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 13, 2020)

Kippington said:


> Correct, and the 'shinogi' goes back up towards the spine at the tip if the grind gets thinner, which happens quite often (a thinner grind at the tip than the heel).



Toyama has no distal taper on the front half thou. I saw a video that Toyama was scraping the knife with a scraper, he could have scraped a potato top out of it?

I respect you as one of the most technical knive makers who likes to experiment & innovate, especially on the grinds, not just treating it strictly as a business.

I know you have the curiosity, maybe you can make a 220mm Potato grind pass around ? 

P.S.

Distal taper on the front half looks cool, but it’s trading off front end weight distribution, sacrificing quick chopping power IMHO.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 13, 2020)

Since I failed at PotaToyama, all bets are off . The Joy of DIY is in the experimentation, how do you guys like the half & half approach?

Don’t worry about the brown stains. It was white after FeCl treatment, I tried to darken it, so I gave it some instant coffee & it turned brown, but I can remove it.


----------



## juice (Sep 13, 2020)

The weirder it looks the more fitting it gets, I reckon.


----------



## TRPV4 (Sep 13, 2020)

is the straight line in the first picture from your grinding?


----------



## Kippington (Sep 13, 2020)

TRPV4 said:


> is the straight line in the first picture from your grinding?


It looks like it was from his etch.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 13, 2020)

Did I say Toyama? I meant Shi.han 

I like the half etched look, but I think it’ll fit in much better with the Shi.Han family rather than Toyama family, agree?


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 13, 2020)

An ancient Chinese proverb says, "*Failure* is the *mother of success.*

So, to celebrate the mother of success, I got a new 1x30 belt grinder coming with variable speed & handle making disk. Still not a knife makers choice, but a step-up from my current bottom-of-the-barrel 1x30 grinder


----------



## juice (Sep 13, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I like the half etched look, but I think it’ll fit in much better with the Shi.Han family rather than Toyama family, agree?


And I'm sure they'll be thrilled to be associated with your project, if only due to failures on your part.


----------



## ian (Sep 13, 2020)

Kippington said:


> Correct, and the 'shinogi' goes back up towards the spine at the tip if the grind gets thinner, which happens quite often (a thinner grind at the tip than the heel).



Doesn’t the shinogi move the other way (toward the edge) if the knife has distal taper? If your bevel has a constant angle, the shinogi is where the thickness of the knife on the bevel reaches the thickness of the rest of the knife, which would tend toward the edge in the presence of distal taper, no?

I’m totally confused by all this talk of root vegetables. I don’t see anything like what @ma_sha1 is mentioning in any of the pics.


----------



## Jville (Sep 13, 2020)

ian said:


> Doesn’t the shinogi move the other way (toward the edge) if the knife has distal taper? If your bevel has a constant angle, the shinogi is where the thickness of the knife on the bevel reaches the thickness of the rest of the knife, which would tend toward the edge in the presence of distal taper, no?
> 
> I’m totally confused by all this talk of root vegetables. I don’t see anything like what @ma_sha1 is mentioning in any of the pics.


The tip is higher than the heel, so theoritically the shinogi should go towards the spine closer to the tip, i believe.


----------



## spaceconvoy (Sep 13, 2020)

ian said:


> Doesn’t the shinogi move the other way (toward the edge) if the knife has distal taper? If your bevel has a constant angle, the shinogi is where the thickness of the knife on the bevel reaches the thickness of the rest of the knife, which would tend toward the edge in the presence of distal taper, no?
> 
> I’m totally confused by all this talk of root vegetables. I don’t see anything like what @ma_sha1 is mentioning in any of the pics.


First off, many knives don't have constant angle bevels. On those that do, the angle is only constant when measured perpendicular to the edge. As the edge curves upward, the angle relative to the spine will become shallower.


----------



## spaceconvoy (Sep 13, 2020)

Think about it this way, but curved


----------



## ian (Sep 13, 2020)

Jville said:


> The tip is higher than the heel, so theoritically the shinogi should go towards the spine closer to the tip, i believe.





spaceconvoy said:


> First off, many knives don't have constant angle bevels. On those that do, the angle is only constant when measured perpendicular to the edge. As the edge curves upward, the angle relative to the spine will become shallower.



As I understood it, @Kippington was talking about the effect that distal taper has on the position of the shinogi line. I understand that the shinogi always goes up to the spine, just because the edge and the spine are meeting at the tip, and the edge bends up near the tip. But the effect of a distal taper is to push the shinogi toward the edge relative to where it usually is, assuming a constant bevel angle. (Yes, the bevel angle may not be constant sometimes.)


----------



## spaceconvoy (Sep 13, 2020)

Yes, but on most knives distal taper is only significant closer to the heel, and becomes almost imperceptible towards the tip. We're both making this too academic.. The simple answer is that most bevels are not a constant angle, and are steeper at the heel and shallower at the tip.


----------



## ian (Sep 13, 2020)

Idk if it’s academic. I think that’s one reason you don’t see any wide bevel knives with significant distal taper, because then the bevel looks stupid. Maybe I’m wrong, what do I know.


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 13, 2020)

ian said:


> Idk if it’s academic. I think that’s one reason you don’t see any wide bevel knives with significant distal taper, because then the bevel looks stupid. Maybe I’m wrong, what do I know.


Kippington either made a mock-up or an actual knife with constant bevel angles and distal taper. It kind of looked funky.


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 13, 2020)

__





Understanding Distal Taper


Yes, but my grinds are not the same like Herder, trying to minimize contact area of the food with more convex / concave grinds to the edge, to make sturdy blades combined with ease of cutting. The only full flat part of the grind should be the edge its self under 0,1mm in height ;) Regards Uwe




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## ian (Sep 13, 2020)

Yea, and trying to make a clean looking shinogi by varying the bevel angle sounds super hard, and more of a pain to maintain.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 13, 2020)

What makes Toyama & Shi.han such great all around gyutos are the ability to do nearly everything well, this requires trade-off & compromising at the right places. 

Both are hi convex grind that offers great cutting, edge stability & food release.

Both opted to NOT have distal taper on the front half, this allows more front weight at the front half of the knife blade, which makes it a better chopper than knives that has distal taper going all the way, in doing so, losing the precious front end weight. 

No front half distal taper:
Left Shi.han; Right, Toyama


----------



## Kippington (Sep 13, 2020)

ian said:


> If your bevel has a constant angle, the shinogi is where the thickness of the knife on the bevel reaches the thickness of the rest of the knife, which would tend toward the edge in the presence of distal taper, no?


Correct, but I said "if the grind gets thinner", meaning "if the bevel angle changes".


----------



## ian (Sep 13, 2020)

Kippington said:


> Correct, but I said "if the grind gets thinner", meaning "if the bevel angle changes".



Cool, now I get what you were saying.


----------



## Luftmensch (Sep 14, 2020)

Also... if you want to be precise about semantics, it might be worth understanding the etymology of "shinogi". _My_ understanding is that its 'original' culinary context is from single-bevel Japanese cooking knives... and that was borrowed from tanto.

The word refers the angular transition from the blade road (kireha) to the face/flat (hira). This as much a geometrical (cross-sectional profile) choice as it is a grinding choice. Does the word still have a meaning in grinds where the surfaces are highly blended? Although we have a feel for what shinogi means in that context, I'd argue that is down to the evolution of language. It is not some fundamental property of all grinds.

Not all knives have a shinogi... and the location where grinding ends isn't necessarily always a shinogi either.


----------



## ian (Sep 14, 2020)

@labor of love


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 16, 2020)

Still tinkering, can’t seem to make up my mind. Maybe full etching is better after all?

Also, there’s skull in the patten at lower 1/3 near spine. He has one eye in the first pic., turned into two eyes in the second photo, can anybody see it?


----------



## juice (Sep 16, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Also, there’s skull in the patten at lower 1/3 near spine. He has one eye in the first pic., turned into two eyes in the second photo, can anybody see it?


Sure, in the same way that I can see the various constellations - i.e. with a large amount of imagination/kidding myself...


----------



## spaceconvoy (Sep 16, 2020)

looks more like a golden retriever to me


----------



## juice (Sep 16, 2020)

Actually, it looks more like the #BeigeLion...


----------



## M1k3 (Sep 16, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Still tinkering, can’t seem to make up my mind. Maybe full etching is better after all?
> 
> Also, there’s skull in the patten at lower 1/3 near spine. He has one eye in the first pic., turned into two eyes in the second photo, can anybody see it?
> View attachment 94875
> View attachment 94876


Skeletor!
Has Beastman offered to buy it off you?


----------



## juice (Sep 16, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Skeletor!


No, it's clearly the #BeigeLion. Clearly.


----------



## applepieforbreakfast (Sep 16, 2020)

juice said:


> Actually, it looks more like the #BeigeLion...



Exactly what I thought!


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 16, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Skeletor!
> Has Beastman offered to buy it off you?View attachment 94884



Eagle eye! That’s exactly what I was referring to


----------



## Midsummer (Sep 16, 2020)

Etched 1+


----------



## Twigg (Sep 17, 2020)

I see boobs


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 17, 2020)

The knife has been slaying veggies including greens, carrots & potato’s, seems to out-cut my Toyama, but I haven’t done head to head shoot out. The edge is thinner as a result of all the tinkering of surface finish & re-grinding etc.

Today’s test is the most critical thou., it’s the virgin cutting session on semi-frozen meat, the very first time. This has been the Achilles heel of my Toyama.

I cut through a good chunk of half frozen icy-beef, I could hear the crunching/crushing sound of the ice crystals with each slice, pretty scary sounding but the edge survived without micro chipping. You can see some of the beef slices are still frozen. I need to do it a few more times to know for sure thou. This is not an made-up test, this is what I do every day, an absolute necessity for my meal prep. Microwave thawing, especially using the cook instead of the slow thawing function, is uneven. Thus, leaving some ice is necessary to avoid partially cooked meat.

The B2 Core has a Hardness of 60/61, perhaps conservative heat treat on hardness resulting higher toughness with trade-off to edge retention? As a home cook, I don’t care much about edge retention, so this worked out for me.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 18, 2020)

I didn’t want to commit for a new handle until the performance checked out. Now I am making him a new pair of shoes to match the Toyama iron-clad.

I can’t say enough good things about the handle maker disk on the new 1x30 variable-speed sander. This morning before work, it made quick work (15 min) out of the D-handle shaping, with lines that are much more crisp than the hand-made version currently on the Toyama. Below is the first pass at 60 grit:


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 20, 2020)

Here’s the project completion & specs:

Toyama:
> Edge length 210mm
> Heel height 49mm
> Spine thickness 3.5mm
> Weight 182g
> Asymmetrical Hi-convex, right bias.

Toyama-like DIY:
> Edge length 222mm
> Heel height 48mm
> Spine thickness 4mm
> Weight 186g
> Asymmetrical Hi-convex, right bias.

DIY on top/ Toyama bottom





Tail end vs. stock D-handle:





Choil shot: DIY





Choil shot: Toyama


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 20, 2020)

Looks nice! The choil looks more like a Mazaki/Masashi mix than a Toyama though. The choil could be misleading.

Mazaki:




Masashi:


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 20, 2020)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Looks nice! The choil looks more like a Mazaki/Masashi mix than a Toyama though. The choil could be misleading.
> 
> Mazaki:
> View attachment 95458
> ...



Thanks! You are right, it does. Also agree that Choil shot is misleading, but it’s the #1 request, people always ask for Choil shots.

To get a real feeling of knife grind, besides taking caliper & measure everywhere, is to run the finders from spine to edge, do it all over the entire length of the blade. Feels like I’ve thinned it down to a Toyama or thinner behind edge, yet but with more convexity on the right side. This is only made possible because the stock was 240mm, which starts out with a thicker spine.


----------



## VicVox72 (Sep 20, 2020)

Does the fact that the DIY outcuts the real one mean the real toyama has to go? :O 

The choil at least makes it look like it is substantially thinner ~5mm behind the edge, and then becomes thicker down towards the spine.

Such a cool project


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 20, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Feels like I’ve thinned it down to a Toyama or thinner behind edge, yet but with more convexity on the right side.


Yep. Definitely looks like an exceptional performer to me.

Sometimes I hope we have the fancy 3D laser scanner in the movie.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 20, 2020)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> Yep. Definitely looks like an exceptional performer to me.
> 
> Sometimes I hope we have the fancy 3D laser scanner in the movie.



Thanks! Totally, the scanners that come with 3D printer these days are pretty cheap, I would love to see it if someone 3D-scans the top kitchen knives, so we can the 3D topology drawings that can be rotated 360.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 20, 2020)

VicVox72 said:


> Does the fact that the DIY outcuts the real one mean the real toyama has to go? :O



This question scares me, I am afraid that the real Toyama might lose , and the principle that I can not keep knives outside of knife block still stands.

Luckily, my knife block decided to have a baby, & the baby sleeps out of sight, in the coffee nook


----------



## VicVox72 (Sep 20, 2020)

Thank God for lack of sex ed for knife blocks! 

All of the handles also look amazing!


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Sep 20, 2020)

@ma_sha1

Do you mind posting the techniques and tutorials behind your slight finger notch if/when you cut it into your DIYama? I'm wanting to do the same to some of my knives.


----------



## tostadas (Sep 20, 2020)

"Toyama-like DIY"

Love it!


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 20, 2020)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> @ma_sha1
> 
> Do you mind posting the techniques and tutorials behind your slight finger notch if/when you cut it into your DIYama? I'm wanting to do the same to some of my knives.



I used one of these in my drill press, about 9mm diameter, then hold the knife & pull toward the grinding stone & go at it. Take it slow, as a slip will mess up the knife, go right through the protective taps. 

It’s slow & risky, I only do it if I have to. I did it to the Toyama due to the short neck. For the DIY, I left enough neck for my finger, no need for a TF notch.

Without a drill press, you’ll need to mount your drill on something so it won’t move.


----------



## juice (Sep 20, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> DIY on top/ Toyama bottom


And the stats are the other way around. You're doing it to screw with my head, aren't you?


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 22, 2020)

Mr. potato top is back! 

When I said it failed on the potato top grind, it’s because I wasn’t able to feel it, but I didn’t actually do any measurements. I started to doubt myself as I couldn’t feel the Toyama potato topology either. Now, after extensive analysis, I am happy to report that the potato-top grind is real, & I can prove it!

To test this, get a metal ruler, preferably the triangle type that’s more resistant to warping. Lay it on the middle of the bevel of your Toyama iron-clad or Kato WH, while allowing the knife to lay on a flat surface as shown in photo #1 below.

Lift the ruler up on the edge of the ruler over the potato top area with back-lighting. If the potato top grind is there, you should be able to see lights coming through from both side of the potato top.

With that, I am able to prove, not only my Toyama iron-clad has the potato top grind topography, My Toyama-like DIY does as well, & it’s even more pronounced.

Metal ruler for gap analysis





Toyama iron-clad, the dark area with no lights coming through is the potato top.





Toyama-like DIY Dammy, with slightly more pronounced potato top


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 23, 2020)

Came across an earlier thread where Asteger described the Kato potato grind as “v” grind. It’s a bit mis leading as the the term has been used for symmetrical flat grind bevels, but the picture with red marked shinogi may be of help.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 24, 2020)

I posted additional comments from Chris on the “v“, I.e. potato top grind below for academics & record keeping.

I like the explanations except the comments on Kato grind toward the heel being accidental, at least I haven’t seen any evidence to support such statement. In addition, Japanese master using a Sen to accidentally over shave the heel manually is much less likely to happen as compared to western belt sander method.

In my effort trying to re-create the potato top grind, I had to intentionally grind the heel thinner, even with dedicate effort, I almost lost it during finishing.

It’s known that pull cut is easier than push cut as pull cut moves toward the thinner front after landing. By the same token, by grinding the heel section thinner, it’ll give the same easier cutting feeling when push cut.

In short, the potato top grind might just be the ideal grind for push/pull cutters, ultimate performance comes when you land the blade at the potato top location, leverage the weight & momentum of the knife to break the skin, after that, both push & pull cut will be easier, giving the gliding through food feeling as it’s moving towards thinner on either direction.


----------



## AT5760 (Sep 24, 2020)

So when do you take off the mask and let us know who/what was the subject of this interesting project?


----------



## ma_sha1 (Sep 24, 2020)

AT5760 said:


> So when do you take off the mask and let us know who/what was the subject of this interesting project?



Fine, I took off my mask, but I will not take off my scarf!


----------



## AT5760 (Sep 24, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> The host is an inexpensive Japanese Dammy clad blue steel with thick spine & taper similar to Toyama, but poor grind & crapy f&f.



Harsh words for the mythical Mazascus. I wish I was flush enough to call those things "inexpensive."


----------



## Forty Ounce (Oct 2, 2020)

AT5760 said:


> So when do you take off the mask and let us know who/what was the subject of this interesting project?


But then he'll have to lower the price and people will see the scam for what it is!!


----------



## ma_sha1 (Oct 2, 2020)

There’s nothing wrong with me deciding to sell a knife after DIY causing knife block overflow. The knife host being inexpensive is relative, it’s still a lot more than a typical knife blank, the amount of work & time I put in is a also a lot more than atypical knife maker would, & the tool, belts, shop supplies, custom handles etc. are more than justify what ask on BST.

Don’t be a ********* fronting with personal attacks. I’d like to see you make a DIY that can hang with Toyama in performance, instead of just running your big mouth. Unless attacking people over the internet is the only skill you’ve got?


----------



## Forty Ounce (Oct 2, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> There’s nothing wrong with me deciding to sell a knife after DIY causing knife block overflow. The knife host being inexpensive is relative, it’s still a lot more than a typical knife blank, the amount of work & time I put in is a also a lot more than atypical knife maker would, & the tool, belts, shop supplies, custom handles etc. are more than justify what ask on BST.
> 
> Don’t be a ********* fronting with personal attacks. I’d like to see you make a DIY that can hang with Toyama in performance, instead of just running your big mouth. Unless attacking people over the internet is the only skill you’ve got?


You must not realize who you're talking to


----------



## ma_sha1 (Oct 2, 2020)

Forty Ounce said:


> You must not realize who you're talking to



I am sorry if you were talking/joking about Mazaki, I am a bit on edge after surviving the poo storm on BST, sorry


----------



## IronBalloon (Oct 2, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> There’s absolutely nothing wrong with trying to profit by making knives. But no for me, that’ll be a job, I do that at work. As a hobby, my goal is for fun, learning by doing, & meet my own needs, then try to be creative & contribute to the forum community at the same time.
> 
> My last two projects ended up being keepers. I still have a self-imposed rule of one-in one-out for my knife block. If I meet the goal of making it equal or better than my Toyama iron-clad, I’ll likely need to sell the Toyama in order to keep this. If I sell this instead, I’ll likely take a loss considering materials & many hours that I’ll be putting in.


Did the DIY not match up to the Toyoma in the end?
And if so, what is about it that isn’t quite there? Not trying to be antagonistic here btw, just interested given that the goal was Toyoma copy or bust.


----------



## Forty Ounce (Oct 2, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I am sorry if you were talking/joking about Mazaki, I am a bit on edge after surviving the poo storm on BST, sorry


I should've been more clear.. I am talking about you. You bought a dirt cheap knife, chopped it up, and now claim in it's par with Toyama. I happen to work as a sharpener/polisher.. so believe me when I say that you don't know *** you're doing. The last shig project where you talked about fake distal taper shows that you don't even know how to inspect a knife properly. It was fine when you were chopping up your own knives, but you've crossed the line by trying to dupe people into buying your crap.


----------



## ma_sha1 (Oct 2, 2020)

Forty Ounce said:


> I should've been more clear.. I am talking about you. You bought a dirt cheap knife, chopped it up, and now claim in it's par with Toyama. I happen to work as a sharpener/polisher.. so believe me when I say that you don't know *** you're doing. The last shig project where you talked about fake distal taper shows that you don't even know how to inspect a knife properly. It was fine when you were chopping up your own knives, but you've crossed the line by trying to dupe people into buying your crap.



There are indeed a lot for me to learn, & I learn the most from actually doing it. I am not a knife maker, but I can certainly evaluate how well it cuts just like everybody else around here. 

You’ve not seen or handled the knife, which I was willing to do a pass around for people to judge. Your personal attack is uncalled for, you should be ashamed of yourself.

For all I care, you can take your ****** sharpening skill & shove it up your own ass.


----------



## Forty Ounce (Oct 2, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> There are indeed a lot for me to learn, & I learn the most from actually doing it. I am not a knife maker, but I can certainly evaluate how well it cuts just like everybody else around here.
> 
> You’ve not seen or handled the knife, which I was willing to do a pass around for people to judge. Your personal attack is uncalled for, you should be ashamed of yourself.
> 
> For all I care, you can take your ****** sharpening skill & shove it up your own ass.


You can keep your homophobic comments to yourself


----------



## ma_sha1 (Oct 2, 2020)

IronBalloon said:


> Did the DIY not match up to the Toyoma in the end?
> And if so, what is about it that isn’t quite there? Not trying to be antagonistic here btw, just interested given that the goal was Toyoma copy or bust.



I did feel that I successfully copied the Toyama grind, the knife performs on-par with my Toyama iron-clad in cutting. Although I feel like I achieve my goal, I also decided to hold-on to the Toyama only because I need it as a reference knife.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Oct 2, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> PS,
> Not planning to disclose the host until I am done.



It was apparently done enough to be listed on BST...


----------



## IronBalloon (Oct 2, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I did feel that I successfully copied the Toyama grind, the knife performs on-par with my Toyama iron-clad in cutting.



Hmm fair enough; would you mind doing some side by side cutting videos?
And I’d have definitely sold the toyoma instead the. Way less drama!


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Oct 2, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I did feel that I successfully copied the Toyama grind, the knife performs on-par with my Toyama iron-clad in cutting.



bröther when the heck could you ever reasonably transform the make of a knife by replicating the grind???


----------



## ma_sha1 (Oct 2, 2020)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> bröther when the heck could you ever reasonably transform the make of a knife by replicating the grind???



I guess I way over estimated some people’s IQ. I thought DIY is plenty clear that it’s not original. I’ve even stated many times out loud that IT’s NOT A Toyama. There’s no transformation of make. It’s Not a Toyama!


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 2, 2020)

Ah another thread to be closed and deleted. 

KKF is more controversial than it used to be.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Oct 2, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> I guess I way over estimated some people’s IQ. I thought DIY is plenty clear that it’s not original. I’ve even stated many times out loud that IT’s NOT A Toyama. There’s no transformation of make. It’s Not a Toyama!



Personally, I would have phrased it as X gyuto with DIY toyama grind.

You didn't include the original make of the knife, which is in my eyes the biggest thing. It could have been misleading to newbies on BST thinking they could score a unicorn.

Besides, why were you so reluctant to reveal the host knife and to change the title to be more transparent? I'm not saying you're trying to cheat people, but things certainly could have been more aboveboard.


----------



## AT5760 (Oct 2, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> KKF is more controversial than it used to be.



I think a lot of people have more time on their hands and at their keyboards than they did six months ago. It's sad to see these things get personal.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 2, 2020)

I'll say this and back away.

I think the OP did a great job and I like the knife. Way better than what I could do. I also feel he can sell it for whatever he likes, regardless of other peoples opinion. He put tons of work into it.

With that said, using Toyama is the title and putting a link in the selling post was not enough. It's misleading, especially to new members (there's quite a few these days). It might have been ok 5 years ago when there were more hobbiests and specialists on here, but not now.

Thats it.

ETA I was a fraud investigations manager for a large bank for the last four years. This would get my investigators notice and a SAR would be filed. You are not a business, just some reference to my statement above.


----------



## Twigg (Oct 2, 2020)

How about some soothing music to help calm everyone down.

<iframe width="302" height="170" src="" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## VicVox72 (Oct 2, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I think the OP did a great job and I like the knife. Way better than what I could do. I also feel he can sell it for whatever he likes, regardless of other peoples opinion. He put tons of work into it.
> 
> With that said, using Toyama is the title and putting a link in the selling post was not enough. It's misleading, especially to new members (there's quite a few these days). It might have been ok 5 years ago when there were more hobbiests and specialists on here, but not now.



ANYONE can charge whatever they want for a product they sell, no matter how shoddy and bad and low quality it is. Nobody needs to buy it though. 

And if you have the cash to spring $290 on a knife on a whim, without clicking on the LINK in the description, you probably won't make the $290 either.


----------



## ian (Oct 2, 2020)

I also think @ma_sha1 did a fantastic looking job, and I also think he should label it more clearly as DIY Damascus with a Toyama inspired grind, as in the updated for sale thread. I don’t have a problem with him not disclosing the blank, although personally I’m curious. People can decide whether they want to buy without that info, or not.

However, I did think there was a rule against posting your own work in BST. If you’re regarding the input knife as just an undisclosed blank, this is a @ma_sha1 knife, not anything else. So, you should be a hobbyist craftsman to list it here. I worried about this before when I listed a very heavily modified Watanabe 180 gyuto. After hours and hours of transformation and regrinding, am I still allowed to sell on BST? I justified it since I was disclosing the original knife, and also I was selling it for $20 less than I bought it for. Anyway, food for thought.


----------



## Matus (Oct 2, 2020)

I am closing this thread. It was definitely one of the more interesting ones in recent history. I only wish it would have not ended in attacks and insults.


----------

