# Exact alloy, 1980 Henckels 4 star chef knife?



## Bert2368 (Apr 10, 2019)

Google AND this site's search function gave no hard figures, just company written advertising copy and endless echoes.

What EXACTLY was the alloy used in the 4 star, german made chef knives marked with Zwilling (twins logo) and "friodur" around 1980?


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## JustinP (Apr 10, 2019)

Is it friodur steel? This link has some info.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/j-a-henckels-friodur-steel.675291/


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## Bert2368 (Apr 10, 2019)

Yes, I was endlessly directed to that same article, no matter how I formatted the search.

See post #8 and subsequent posts for the admission that none of them really KNOW, most especially by the guy who so positively stated that it's 440C + cryo treatment.

(Quote)
Rather than stating the alloy identity as a fact, you might think about stating what you actually know, "you were told by some one you think would know that it is 440C."

And subsequent posts, such as #12.

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(Quote)

This does not sound like 440C to me:

http://usa.jahenckels.com/index.php?simple_view=13

ZWILLING J.A. HENCKELS exclusive high carbon, no-stain steel:

Until 1965 ZWILLING J.A. HENCKELS produced its own steel. The Company did intensive research how to optimize the qualities of steel to meet the specific requirements of the cutlery industry. Based on these findings and research, ZWILLING J.A. HENCKELS�? exclusive steel formula with the optimum ratio of carbon, chromium and other components was developed. This exclusive high carbon, no-stain steel is today used in developing all TWIN® knives.

440C is a set alloy with a single set composition.

(End quote, begin RANT...)

The maker says it's their own exclusive steel (but one which, apparently, they no longer actually MAKE THEMSELVES?).

Of course no one else can have it, it is magic! 

Henckel Friodur steel contains 1% genuine unobtanium in a crystal matrix of .05% Krell metal!! 

It is a german engineered super alloy with juju charms enforced by the ghost of Reichsminister Speer himself!!!

(Rant mode off- Whew...)

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Should I just make an appointment with the guys at scrapyard to XRF test my old Henckel?


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## HRC_64 (Apr 10, 2019)

Almost certainly 1980s Henckel being a german company (pre WTO) was/ is using an EU sourced steel on higher-end products. 440C as you probably know is AISI label that seems out of place here.


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## daveb (Apr 10, 2019)

I find nothing wrong with them using a proprietary steel and farming out the making of it. They certainly don't owe anyone that information any more than Shig does.

BTW, I still own am 8 and 10 inch chef from that time period (1984ish). I would be happy to loan you the one with the Wa handle. (There was some drinking that weekend...)


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## Bert2368 (Apr 10, 2019)

I haffe mein Henckel, ja! Purchased neu, 1984!





OK. I'll see if I can bum a few more XRF scans off of the guys at the scrapyard. Letting them grope new types of knives usually is enough to get them interested in such things on a slow day.


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## Benuser (Apr 11, 2019)

My guess it was already Krupp's 4116.
But perhaps you should ask our German counterparts
Messerforum.net 
kochmalscharf.freeforums.net


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## inferno (Apr 11, 2019)

I'm guessing its krupp 1.4116 aka the dreaded DIN X50CrMoV15
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/x50crmov15.shtml

Or possibly zdp-189


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## Bert2368 (Jun 6, 2019)

inferno said:


> I'm guessing its krupp 1.4116 aka the dreaded DIN X50CrMoV15
> http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/x50crmov15.shtml
> 
> Or possibly zdp-189



Here is your guess, composition is from Z-knife:






Here is an XRF analysis of my early 1980s Henckels 4 star chef knife for comparison:







The Henckles tests as containing Manganese, Copper and Nickel, which the recipe given for X50CrMoV15 does not. Some other ingredients which this XRF tester can give a reading for are close, but not identical.

Henckels may really have used a custom alloy. The why and wherefore, I can't speak to.


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## Larrin (Jun 7, 2019)

Cu, Ni, and Mn doesn't really change anything. Copper and nickel are in recycled steel. The 1.0% Mn from Zknives is probably a max. It's probably 1.4116.


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## ojisan (Jun 7, 2019)

Larrin said:


> Cu, Ni, and Mn doesn't really change anything. Copper and nickel are in recycled steel. The 1.0% Mn from Zknives is probably a max. It's probably 1.4116.



Doctor, I have a question. I thought that usually Ni is included less than Cu in recycled steel, like Cu is around 0.2% (upto 0.4%) these days while Ni is still most likely less than 0.1%.

So I’m wondering if 0.29% Ni was normal in 80s in Germany or it’s intentionally added for some performance improvement. Some people say slight Ni makes heat treatment easier so I thought 0.29% Ni was for that purpose (for corrosion resistance, it’s too less?). Doesn't Ni change anything at this amount?


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## Larrin (Jun 8, 2019)

A small Ni addition can't be discounted as a possibility, that's true.


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## ojisan (Jun 8, 2019)

Larrin said:


> A small Ni addition can't be discounted as a possibility, that's true.



Thank you for the answer!


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