# Been a while since we had a Cleaver chat.



## Danzo

Hey guys, there's been all sorts of cleaver chats that come and go. Seems like its been a while since we had one. I'm always on the lookout for what the next one may be. I've had much less than some of you, but seems like I gravitate towards these more than anythings else at home. Anybody been rocking something they like these days? Lets try to create a gambit of price and quality here too. Customs western makers as well as Japanese


Past cleavers
Sugimoto #6. Workhorse of cleavers, mine clocked in at well over 450 i think. Cut pretty damn great, minimal wedging. Ultimately was too heavy for me. $350

CCK carbon. thin thin thin. You know the deal. Easy to sharpen and flies through everything. Got bored of it. cheap $45 at the time

suien VC. Mine had a huge belly, and pretty clunky factory edge, thinned out and it was pretty nice. I will probably get another of these $150

Current
CCK stainless metal handle. Saw Fuschia Dunlop had one of these, and I missed my old one. probably the most used knife at home. $60

JKI stainless white 2. Sweet little thing. Much shorter at the heel than any other cleaver, slightly short at the edge too. Factory edge was junk, thinned out and its great. A very nice compromise and sugimoto replacement. $100


Trying to build a catalog of what to try next in this category.


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## spaceconvoy

I've had the Sugimoto standard #6 and stainless 4030, wanted to like them for their steels but never loved them. Can't stand the belly, and too blade heavy for my taste. Currently happy with my stainless CCK 1912. The thinness and balance are perfect, and I love the handle, surprisingly. 

Still halfheartedly on the lookout for a fancy custom thin slicer. Watanabe has a really nice looking one in the Specials section of his site. Problem is most makers slap two slabs of wood on a full tang handle, but the balance never feels right to me.

Finding the King Neo 800 has made me more content to settle with the CCK. No longer a pain to sharpen, and has the perfect amount of tooth for its mediocre stainless. Sometimes you just need the right stone for a particular steel. Easier than wishing for a knife that doesn't exist.


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## damiano

I have been using the Sugimoto sf4030 for two years now. This is the smaller version, 195x95. It has the same steel supposedly as the #6. Still like it a lot and cannot see myself getting rid of it. I really like its geometry, feels very natural in the hand for a home environment. Downside imho is its reactivity, which kinda slows me down prepping food. Constantly need to wash it and wipe it.


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## refcast

mlau liked his chinese cleaver from Joe Calton.

I've had two knives (boning, and chef) from Joe Calton and they've had great steel in 1095 (very well balanced as well as hard) and the grinds are thin.

His shop shows an older example from 2018 in 52100. Based on this the spine is 2.2 mm. It does have a belt grinder flat grind all the way to the edge, and the knives I've gotton from are thin. It's just the primary bevels are on the more conservative side of things. He works with 1095 more often though. 









Bellied Chinese Cleaver in 52100 and Caribean rosewood!! - Calton Cutlery


Date made: 5/16/18 Style: Chinese Cleaver Steel: 52100 Handle: Carribean Rosewood Pins: Bronze and Bronze guard OAL: 12 3/4" Blade Lenth: 8 1/8" Width: 3 7/8" Grind: Full Flat .022", .032", .087" Blade finish: A65 and Blue Scotchbrite Belt Weight: 13 ounces



caltoncutlery.com


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## wind88

Watanabe/Toyama cleaver is rad. I really dig the profile. Also a big fan of Ginga cleaver from JKI.


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## Danzo

refcast said:


> mlau liked his chinese cleaver from Joe Calton.
> 
> I've had two knives (boning, and chef) from Joe Calton and they've had great steel in 1095 (very well balanced as well as hard) and the grinds are thin.
> 
> His shop shows an older example from 2018 in 52100. Based on this the spine is 2.2 mm. It does have a belt grinder flat grind all the way to the edge, and the knives I've gotton from are thin. It's just the primary bevels are on the more conservative side of things. He works with 1095 more often though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bellied Chinese Cleaver in 52100 and Caribean rosewood!! - Calton Cutlery
> 
> 
> Date made: 5/16/18 Style: Chinese Cleaver Steel: 52100 Handle: Carribean Rosewood Pins: Bronze and Bronze guard OAL: 12 3/4" Blade Lenth: 8 1/8" Width: 3 7/8" Grind: Full Flat .022", .032", .087" Blade finish: A65 and Blue Scotchbrite Belt Weight: 13 ounces
> 
> 
> 
> caltoncutlery.com


 1095 is a fun steel, sharpens up so quick.


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## Danzo

wind88 said:


> Watanabe/Toyama cleaver is rad. I really dig the profile. Also a big fan of Ginga cleaver from JKI.


is the ashi cleaver mega thin like the rest of ashi stuff?


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## Danzo

spaceconvoy said:


> I've had the Sugimoto standard #6 and stainless 4030, wanted to like them for their steels but never loved them. Can't stand the belly, and too blade heavy for my taste. Currently happy with my stainless CCK 1912. The thinness and balance are perfect, and I love the handle, surprisingly.
> 
> Still halfheartedly on the lookout for a fancy custom thin slicer. Watanabe has a really nice looking one in the Specials section of his site. Problem is most makers slap two slabs of wood on a full tang handle, but the balance never feels right to me.
> 
> Finding the King Neo 800 has made me more content to settle with the CCK. No longer a pain to sharpen, and has the perfect amount of tooth for its mediocre stainless. Sometimes you just need the right stone for a particular steel. Easier than wishing for a knife that doesn't exist.


do you finish on that 800?


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Danzo said:


> Trying to build a catalog of what to try next in this category.



A nakiri


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## lemeneid

Pretty much what Ricky has I want to try.

TF
Wat
Miz
Takada
Kemadi


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## spaceconvoy

Danzo said:


> do you finish on that 800?


Yes, for my cheap stainless knives - the CCK and an Opinel parer.


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## cotedupy

Most of my cooking is done with a Leung Tim Sangdao #2, about the same size as a 1103, and a set of chopsticks. A tip here (possibly a blindingly obvious one) - just as a cleaver makes a great bench scraper, a chopstick makes a great cleaver scraper for garlic, ginger, onions, and other thinks that stick.

Also for anyone who hasn't seen it - I hadn't come across CCK's website until about a month ago, as it's not high priority on English language Google searches, but useful to see the whole range and sizes... 中式廚刀


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## Nagakin

I regret not grabbing that shihan wrought tbh.


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## dafox

cotedupy said:


> Most of my cooking is done with a Leung Tim Sangdao #2, about the same size as a 1103, and a set of chopsticks. A tip here (possibly a blindingly obvious one) - just as a cleaver makes a great bench scraper, a chopstick makes a great cleaver scraper for garlic, ginger, onions, and other thinks that stick.
> 
> Also for anyone who hasn't seen it - I hadn't come across CCK's website until about a month ago, as it's not high priority on English language Google searches, but useful to see the whole range and sizes... 中式廚刀


Where can you buy Leung Tim cleavers?


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## tchan001

dafox said:


> Where can you buy Leung Tim cleavers?


I could probably walk to the Leung Tim store in Hong Kong. LOL

Leung Tim Choppers Factory,
Sham Shui Po, 221 Cheung Sha Wan Rd, Ground Floor.
Kowloon, Hong Kong

Haven't tried that brand though.


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## tchan001

I currently have a couple CCK stainless cleavers, a Dalman and a Tesshu (Munetoshi).


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## cotedupy

dafox said:


> Where can you buy Leung Tim cleavers?



They do also have a store in Sydney, who are happy to post them out, which is where I got mine. Tho it might be a bit spenny to Colorado. Happy to pass on their email if you want to ask, or ask them about possible places in the US...

They're very good quality and a fair bit cheaper than CCK now. That Sangdao was the equivalent of just under $50 US.

EDIT - I've actually just been emailing them today, so asked about US vendors for you...


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## dafox

cotedupy said:


> They do also have a store in Sydney, who are happy to post them out, which is where I got mine. Tho it might be a bit spenny to Colorado. Happy to pass on their email if you want to ask, or ask them about possible places in the US...
> 
> They're very good quality and a fair bit cheaper than CCK now. That Sangdao was the equivalent of just under $50 US.
> 
> EDIT - I've actually just been emailing them today, so asked about US vendors for you...


Thanks!


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## xxxclx

I like cooking with cleavers and consequently I have 4 thin cleavers and 1 meat cleaver.

My first cleaver was a Messermeister asian precision cleaver I bought 7-8 years ago that withstood quite a bit of abuse from previous roommates and is probably 5mm shorter than the day it came out of the box. I still keep it around as a beater. It's made in Seki by some unknown maker with unknown stainless steel. It cuts well enough, better than the Shibazi stainless my parents use at least. 

A couple of years ago I brought back a CCK KF1303 Sangdao slicer from HK but I didn't really bond with it. A bit too rustic for my taste. The non-cutting edges of the knife are too rough and unpleasant to use, but that's understandable at the price point. (I think it was around 200 HKD at the time)

Recently I've been on a cleaver buying binge and bought a Tesshu/Munetoshi meat cleaver, Gesshin Ginga stainless, and the Shibata Tank. The tank surprisingly has the best out of the box cutting experience, even better than that of my Gengetsu white #2.


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## Matus

Perfect timing Danzo 

I have so far only experience with CCK 1303, but with a very high probability that small stainless-clad-white#2 Gesshin cleaver may soon replace it. Been looking high and low for a smaller/lighter cleaver and this could be just the ticket.


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## GorillaGrunt

I had a go at trying to become a cleaver guy and I’m still torn on the issue. I’ve accumulated the following:

cck 1303
Daovua small cleaver, maybe 195x100 and even thinner than cck, $70
Dengjia carbon, also 190mm or so, $40
cheap Chinese stainless, Yang Jiang from wok shop I think, 200mm middleweight $20?
Shibazi 230mm carbon, $40?
Gesshin Ginga #6 stainless, $315 and I’m about to sell it for $225

and a #7 maybe, big heavy thing by Hideyuki Tanaka in Ginsan. Not sure that this one even counts as a Chinese cleaver or chukabocho since it’s really more like a butcher cleaver, I’ve used it to slice steaks on the line for fun but it is definitely a lot closer to a Sabatier meat cleaver. Thinner behind the edge of course and harder steel, but much better for banging through cases of chickens than dicing onions.

Surprisingly the amount of belly doesn’t seem to make much of a difference for me; I’d have assumed that I’d end up with a clear preference for very flat or continuous curve.

The cheap Chinese ones of course far outperform anything else in their price range that I’ve used. Every time I pick up the stainless wok shop one I question having a quantity and value of knives that’s necessitated increasing my renters insurance coverage twice. The expensive Japanese one is of course much nicer looking and much nicer cutting, but I’m not convinced that it’s 1) 10x or even 5x better or 2) better than other similarly priced Japanese knives - just different. Perhaps if I were a more experienced cleaver guy, or properly trained with one, my impression would be different. Amazing edge and geometry though, digs right into the board!

The standout for me is the Daovua. It’s a laser cutter with good edge retention and excellent sharpenability, lightweight but not fragile feeling. The edge isn’t straight and every figure I’ve seen for the hardness of the steel is low, and somehow that doesn’t seem to matter.

I’d still someday like to try a Heiji, Shig, Saji, etc. or a custom and see what it’s all about.


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## Matus

GorillaGrunt said:


> The standout for me is the Daovua. It’s a laser cutter with good edge retention and excellent sharpenability, lightweight but not fragile feeling. The edge isn’t straight and every figure I’ve seen for the hardness of the steel is low, and somehow that doesn’t seem to matter.
> 
> I’d still someday like to try a Heiji, Shig, Saji, etc. or a custom and see what it’s all about.



How does the DaoVua compare to CCK1303? I am nearly 100% set on the Gesshing-stainless-clad-white2, but this would just be simpler and cheaper to get (mainly because of shipping and taxes). I have discarded it that it is going to be a POS with poor everything. Maybe I am wrong ... ?

I saw some photos of a 370g, neat-sized Shig kurouchi cleaver. Looked so sweet. I don't even want to know how much would it cost second hand.


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## Tristan

This is a great thread to ask on them.
I’ve got a CCK iron bone chopper and frankly I want to move into two more - slicer in two sizes also iron.
Any other cleaver significantly better than CCK? 
I mean our gyutos vs German steels were a revelation. I’m somehow doubtful it’ll be the same on this end of things.


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## Danzo

Matus said:


> Perfect timing Danzo
> 
> I have so far only experience with CCK 1303, but with a very high probability that small stainless-clad-white#2 Gesshin cleaver may soon replace it. Been looking high and low for a smaller/lighter cleaver and this could be just the ticket.


it needs about an hour on the stones out the box but after that it’s pretty great.


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## Danzo

Tristan said:


> This is a great thread to ask on them.
> I’ve got a CCK iron bone chopper and frankly I want to move into two more - slicer in two sizes also iron.
> Any other cleaver significantly better than CCK?
> I mean our gyutos vs German steels were a revelation. I’m somehow doubtful it’ll be the same on this end of things.


This is really how you define better. They are just different. Does the cck caidao feel cheap? Yes. But it’s undeniably efficient and fun to use. Seems like cleavers just get thicker and heavier and finding the balance point is different for everyone.


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## BillHanna

I bought a Dao Vua cleaver on a whim, about a year ago. I find it heavy and tall. Am I not a cleaver guy, or are there shorter and lighter alternatives? 

Maybe I just need tall nakiris to play with.


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## Matus

BillHanna said:


> I bought a Dao Vua cleaver on a whim, about a year ago. I find it heavy and tall. Am I not a cleaver guy, or are there shorter and lighter alternatives?
> 
> Maybe I just need tall nakiris to play with.


What is the size and weight of the one you got? Tall nakiris are great, I agree


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## BillHanna

I’d have to check when I get home in eight hours, but I know the edge is 220mm.


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## BillHanna

I lied. 210x91 at the heel, 95 at the tallest, 87 at the very end.


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## cotedupy

BillHanna said:


> I bought a Dao Vua cleaver on a whim, about a year ago. I find it heavy and tall. Am I not a cleaver guy, or are there shorter and lighter alternatives?
> 
> Maybe I just need tall nakiris to play with.



There are a few smaller versions, the link I posted above shows the selection made by CCK for instance. Tho I'd probably say they might just not be for you, and a tall Nakiri would be better.

I'd personally probably want your Dao Vua to be taller if anything. The grip that I think is ideal for this kind of cleaver involves your index and middle fingers extended in a v-shape down the outside of the blade, with your thumb on the inside. This gives a level of control which you can't really get on less tall cleavers, because your fingers would extend over the edge. And which, kinda counter-intuitively, makes smaller cleavers less easy to use.

Did that make sense...?

EDIT - So actually you might be a cleaver guy, but just need a _bigger_ one


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## cotedupy

I've only just noticed this but it's kind of annoying that in English that 'short' is the opposite of both 'tall' and 'long'.

(So that in the above post I had to write 'less tall' to make it clear what I was saying.)


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## GorillaGrunt

Daovua: 200x95mm, 330g
CCK: 210x86mm, 253g










as seen here I was wrong: the CCK is way thinner. But the DV cuts like it is. I tried to get a sense of the geometry with a reference straight and it seems to be asymmetrically convex. Also it seems lighter than it is; maybe the weird shaped handle gives it better balance? The stainless Yang Jiang is only 30g heavier but feels like much more.






It’s so not straight! Everything in theory would tell me that the twist makes it effectively thicker and therefore to predict poor performance on e.g. Dicing onions and slicing fat carrots. But in practice this doesn’t seem to have an effect and it cuts straight and smoothly. Note that this is only my instance — I may just have gotten lucky, all the errors cancel out or something. Anyhow between the two the DV is definitely better.





absent: Yang Jiang stainless and Tanaka heavyweight


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## juice

cotedupy said:


> (So that in the above post I had to write 'less tall' to make it clear what I was saying.)


Which makes perfect sense, but I agree, English words are a PITA, mostly because they're English, meaning they're just stolen from all over the place. It's the English way.


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## Rangen

I actually like the heavier cleavers. I have the Sugimoto CM4030 for when I want something light and nimble, but more often I grab the Sugimoto No 6 (480g) or a Watanabe (Toyama makes these, I guess?) 480g or 580g. I guess if I were using it all day, I might find it fatiguing, but I'm not, and I really like how the extra weight makes a lot of things easy. Even find plenty of uses for the 680g Saji. For example: cutting 5 lbs of chuck roast into cubes small enough to fit in the KitchenAid grinder (yeah, I know, I need a real grinder). It's a pain with a light knife/cleaver, and a breeze with the big heavy one.


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## damiano

This is my Sugimoto sf4030. 195x95. 342 grams.


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## DrEriksson

I might be in the running for the weirdest cleaver trio. Satake Kuro (heavy cleaver with VG10 core), Dalman Chinese cleaver (100 mm), and Global GS-102 (which I actually like a lot).


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## cotedupy

DrEriksson said:


> I might be in the running for the weirdest cleaver trio. Satake Kuro (heavy cleaver with VG10 core), Dalman Chinese cleaver (100 mm), and Global GS-102 (which I actually like a lot).
> 
> View attachment 97130



I like this triptych... covers all bases!

The Dalman looks rather nice. Do they normally have that amount of curvature? Or is the perspective on that picture a bit deceiving?


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## BillHanna

cotedupy said:


> The grip that I think is ideal for this kind of cleaver involves your index and middle fingers extended in a v-shape down the outside of the blade, with your thumb on the inside. This gives a level of control which you can't really get on less tall cleavers, because your fingers would extend over the edge. And which, kinda counter-intuitively, makes smaller cleavers less easy to use.
> 
> Did that make sense...?


*long sigh* It made so much sense, I'm shopping for a cleaver with less belly. Thanks FOR NOTHING. When my wife complains, I'm sending her to you. 

And now I get why the stubby handle on some of them.


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## DrEriksson

cotedupy said:


> I like this triptych... covers all bases!
> 
> The Dalman looks rather nice. Do they normally have that amount of curvature? Or is the perspective on that picture a bit deceiving?



I'm happy with how the cleavers complement each other, but I'd prefer something a bit more fun than the Satake. I would also really enjoy a custom mini cleaver, but I'm not sure if it's what I would prioritize in terms of getting more knives.

Regarding the geometry. Added two pics, one showing the belly of the cleaver. It does not have a straight profile, and it's possible to do a little rocking with it. When I took some more pictures now, I noticed that the wide-angle lens of the phone camera can really exacerbate the curvature. I think the profile works great, but I'm also not used to the really straight Chinese cleavers.


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## Matus

That Dalman cleaver looks sweet. I actually like some belly on a cleaver as I mostly use them for push cutting. CCK1303 is about right belly-wise for my taste.


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## DrEriksson

Matus said:


> That Dalman cleaver looks sweet. I actually like some belly on a cleaver as I mostly use them for push cutting. CCK1303 is about right belly-wise for my taste.



Regardless of cutting style, I've never had issues with not contacting with the board and getting a proper cut with my Dalman cleaver. Would like to try different types of cleavers though. Only problem is they take so much space on my knife blocks and they don't fit in a drawer. (Except for the Global mini-cleaver. I'm not displaying that in public. It's my dirty little secret.)


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## ExistentialHero

I currently have two:

* Sugimoto 4030 stainless: nice weight, but a little thick for my taste and more belly than I prefer. I'll probably sell or trade this soon if anyone's looking 
* LaSeur in 52100: phenomenal. Thin and light but very stiff, great edge profile, takes a wicked edge, and mildly reactive for some patina fun.


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## Matus

You nailed it @DrEriksson - space is a real issue with cleavers. BTW - should I get that small Gesshin cleaver, I would be more then happy to let you play with it.


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## Matus

@ExistentialHero - you got that last LaSeur cleaver that is also on his IG? The handle looks incredible ...


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## esoo

DrEriksson said:


> I might be in the running for the weirdest cleaver trio. Satake Kuro (heavy cleaver with VG10 core), Dalman Chinese cleaver (100 mm), and Global GS-102 (which I actually like a lot).
> 
> View attachment 97130



I have a totally irrational urge to get a small knife like that GS-102. Keep looking at the Takeda Ko-bunka and Ko-nakiri as options. Then I look at the price and think that I should just get some blanks made at Jarod Todd and grind them out myself.


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## DrEriksson

esoo said:


> I have a totally irrational urge to get a small knife like that GS-102. Keep looking at the Takeda Ko-bunka and Ko-nakiri as options. Then I look at the price and think that I should just get some blanks made at Jarod Todd and grind them out myself.



The Global in action: 

Those Takeda look sweet. Would not mind one. My small knife combo is an 80/33 mm petty from Smedja Aspen, and an 150/55 mm bunka from Heldqvist smide.

I do see the point on the price of the Takeda. I got my Global from doing surveys online, so I did not spend any money on it. Find it hard to motivate that cost for a novelty knife - even though I ended up liking it. So if a hand-made small (max 90 mm long) cleaver pops up, I might consider it.


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## ExistentialHero

Matus said:


> @ExistentialHero - you got that last LaSeur cleaver that is also on his IG? The handle looks incredible ...



Ah, no, not the 2.0 (though that looks incredible). This is mine: Show your newest knife buy


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## esoo

DrEriksson said:


> The Global in action:
> 
> Those Takeda look sweet. Would not mind one. My small knife combo is an 80/33 mm petty from Smedja Aspen, and an 150/55 mm bunka from Heldqvist smide.
> 
> I do see the point on the price of the Takeda. I got my Global from doing surveys online, so I did not spend any money on it. Find it hard to motivate that cost for a novelty knife - even though I ended up liking it. So if a hand-made small (max 90 mm long) cleaver pops up, I might consider it.




Works a lot like I expected.

I totally understand the price on the Takeda - the difference in work between a 120 and 165 mm bunka/nakiri is minimal, so to keep the knife profitable you have the charge the money.


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## cotedupy

BillHanna said:


> *long sigh* It made so much sense, I'm shopping for a cleaver with less belly. Thanks FOR NOTHING. When my wife complains, I'm sending her to you.
> 
> And now I get why the stubby handle on some of them.



Excellent... I do like to be a cleaver enabler!

(Tho I'm afraid I already have one wife to complain about the amount I spend on kitchen knives, so can't accept another at this time.)


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## josemartinlopez

So how does a custom cleaver outperform a CCK?


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## spaceconvoy

it doesn't, I had a custom cleaver and the CCK is far superior every way


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## spaceconvoy

I should elaborate that the "custom cleaver" was a cheap sobakiri I bought on a whim, then cut off the tail to see if it could be salvaged as a cleaver. It was a waste of time, just like overly-broad and pointless questions.


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## talcum

How's this? A harner at just over 1 kg


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## wind88

josemartinlopez said:


> So how does a custom cleaver outperform a CCK?


Aside from better steel, I think the rest is all boiled down to your preference for profile(flat or big belly), size and weight. 

Personally, I find cck1303 too light to take full advantage of cleaver design. I like flatter cleavers that weight around 450-480 in 220-225 (2:1 length to height). 

Not many check all the boxes other than going custom.


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## josemartinlopez

Does a 450g cleaver feel too heavy if you got used to 250g and lighter Japanese knives?


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## RDalman

josemartinlopez said:


> Does a 450g cleaver feel too heavy if you got used to 250g and lighter Japanese knives?


No. And I'm fairly thin too. Grip and weight does the work.


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## Barmoley

I've tried CCK 1303, Dalman 185X80, and handled but didn't use Suien VC. Liked Dalman the best, CCK was also good outside of the steel, but excellent for the price. Suien was just too big for me, so sold without even trying, could tell right away that it is not for me.


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## gcsquared

Of the dozen or so cleavers I’ve used, my favorites are:
1. My 3 Dalman cleavers — all awesome and super fun to use. Always have one in my rotation.
2. Kemadi Bulat cleaver — the steel is absolutely awesome and has a ton of bite.
3. Laseur — a 52100 that’s modeled after CCK1303 but better in every way (except price lol). And now waiting for Tony’s S-grind cleaver in AEB-L! I think Tony’s cleavers are highly underrated. If you love cleavers, I encourage you to try!


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## josemartinlopez

RDalman said:


> No. And I'm fairly thin too. Grip and weight does the work.


Is that a fair comparison though? Someone told me Robert knives always feel like they are 1/10 the weight when you hold them.


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## Matus

Reading the above comments I am starting to realize, that I need to try a full size cleaver, or something close to it.


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## josemartinlopez

I should never have opened this thread.


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## Noodle Soup

It is probably not news to long time readers here but I collect cleavers. That includes all the new to me variations I can find on my trips to Asia. Most get rotated around some but my current kitchen battery includes a Sugimoto No. 7 for heavy chopping, a CCK 1911, the Viet Dao Vua mentioned before in this thread, a little Thai bone chopper and a nice medium weight "Rice Knife 9001" I picked up in Malaysia last year. The Dau Vua and the Rice Knife probably see the most day to day use but I have a purpose for all of them. Rice Knives are made by a company called Zhengshi Daoye in Taiwan


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## Danzo

RDalman said:


> No. And I'm fairly thin too. Grip and weight does the work. View attachment 97174


wow you got a dalman! lucky you


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## josemartinlopez

spaceconvoy said:


> I should elaborate that the "custom cleaver" was a cheap sobakiri I bought on a whim, then cut off the tail to see if it could be salvaged as a cleaver. It was a waste of time, just like overly-broad and pointless questions.


Not quite the custom cleaver we are looking for. Next.


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## KO88

OK that is great I m about to get in line on Isasmedjan list I was about to get like 190x80 smaller cleaver. But when I m reading this I m thinking about full size or maybe even oversize...

Now I have Takeda cleaver small (205) which is great. Thin lightweight gets super sharp... And have small toyama nakiri.

By the long shot for me but want to get hand on toyama cleaver. How is it? 

Also nobody wrote here about Heiji cleaver...

Btw that Robins things are totally beasts too. How much does they weght? How are they compared to toyamai?


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## wind88

KO88 said:


> OK that is great I m about to get in line on Isasmedjan list I was about to get like 190x80 smaller cleaver. But when I m reading this I m thinking about full size or maybe even oversize...
> 
> Now I have Takeda cleaver small (205) which is great. Thin lightweight gets super sharp... And have small toyama nakiri.
> 
> By the long shot for me but want to get hand on toyama cleaver. How is it?
> 
> Also nobody wrote here about Heiji cleaver...
> 
> Btw that Robins things are totally beasts too. How much does they weght? How are they compared to toyamai?


Toyama cleaver for me checks pretty much all the boxes for me except the weight. It’s a tad too heavy. I blame the overly fat tang. Otherwise, it’s ideal for me.


----------



## Unstoppabo

Do nakiri's count as cleavers? If so, I've got 2 that are basically polar opposites. 

Top one is a pretty thick Thai cleaver in 52100, spalted maple and black dyed redwood burl handle with zebra wood saya by AM Marr FB link. It's not all that thick behind the edge but the 51200 is tougher than anything else I have so it's sharpened at a pretty high angle and used for tougher tasks. I'm not the original owner but it was pretty thin behind the edge and convexed when I got it. Feels great on the stones. 

The second one is a w#2 nakiri by Yoshikazu Ikeda. The choil shot is a bit misleading because it thins out very quickly in both directions. The edge makes my Konosuke HD2 look fat and tbh, I'm a bit scared to use this one. No problems with chipping but I think I bent it on a squash or watermelon. 

I will probably add something in between at some point.


----------



## cotedupy

RDalman said:


> No. And I'm fairly thin too. Grip and weight does the work. View attachment 97174



This picture of the grip illustrates perfectly why a slicing cleaver does need some height at least.

I have hands on the small size of medium and about 100mm in height is the minimum for me. I do have a 1303-size cleaver and it's too short for me to hold like this properly.


----------



## damiano

cotedupy said:


> This picture of the grip illustrates perfectly why a slicing cleaver does need some height at least.
> 
> I have hands on the small size of medium and about 100mm in height is the minimum for me. I do have a 1303-size cleaver and it's too short for me to hold like this properly.


This is my 195x95 Sugi. No problem with this grip - though my hands aren’t the biggest either.


----------



## cotedupy

Wahnamhong said:


> This is my 195x95 Sugi. No problem with this grip - though my hands aren’t the biggest either. View attachment 97269



Nice! I think a Sugimoto is going to be next on my list (I only have relatively inexpensive cleavers atm). 

I was thinking about a no.6... is yours one size down from that?


----------



## damiano

cotedupy said:


> Nice! I think a Sugimoto is going to be next on my list (I only have relatively inexpensive cleavers atm).
> 
> I was thinking about a no.6... is yours one size down from that?


Yes, indeed it's one size down from the #6. For home use it's a great size imho. I actually had the Shun Chinese vegetable cleaver for a long time, it was my first 'serious' knife. I really liked its geometry, so that was my starting point for finding a better cleaver. You know, Shun.. No edge retention and difficult to get sharp.


----------



## RDalman

KO88 said:


> Btw that Robins things are totally beasts too. How much does they weght? How are they compared to toyamai?



The recent ones I made, The 185x100 was ~370g the x80 where I think 320-340g.


----------



## valgard

This one from Yanick is pretty awesome. It's a light vegetable cleaver, but great grind and nice forged geometry more than anything. Profile needed a bit of tweaking ootb for me but I would recommend it, and he's a great guy.


----------



## josemartinlopez

What makes the geometry of a vegetable cleaver good?


----------



## alterwisser

josemartinlopez said:


> So how does a custom cleaver outperform a CCK?



by being in the hands of a superior user


----------



## josemartinlopez

Funny, funny. Let's assume both are in your hands wise guy, does that work?


----------



## alterwisser

josemartinlopez said:


> Funny, funny. Let's assume both are in your hands wise guy, does that work?



can you specify your question?

you’re asking a very generic question. Steel, grind, F&F.... there’s so much you can or could be talking about.

a CCK is a decent knife, a good one with some tweaking. But you can get one that is similar to it for $15... I think the CCK is overpriced, even though it’s relatively cheap.

performance is a tricky beast. If you’re just looking for a well performing knife, there’s no need to Spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars. A $600 knife often doesn’t perform significantly better than a $150 knife, and a $4000 doesn’t perform significantly better than either one....

i am sure you understand there’s more to buying and collecting knives than performance. I mean, you’ve been around this forum, right?


----------



## josemartinlopez

alterwisser said:


> can you specify your question?
> 
> Steel, grind, F&F....


take your pick. let's not limit it to strictly cutting performance and edge retention etc.


----------



## alterwisser

Love, love Cleavers (now). I don’t think I’ll ever go back to using regular knives as my go to’s....

current cleaver Lineup:

- Full Size Kamon (240ish)... that one is insane, but almost too big

- Smide in 1.2562 with wrought iron cladding. LOVE it. It’s gorgeous and a great performer

- Dalman Carbon with Hamon. Love that one as well. I think it’s his standard carbon UBC-20 or whatever it is...

- Dalman small cleaver (scrap) in AEB-L, it’s the one I abuse on a daily basis

-CcK 1303. Don’t use it much, maybe I should

- cheapo full metal Tim Leung or whatever the name is, had it thinned by @suntravel but badly chipped the edge .... I don’t know how :-(


----------



## alterwisser

josemartinlopez said:


> take your pick. let's not limit it to strictly cutting performance and edge retention etc.



nah man, you take your pick


----------



## Matus

This thread will ruin me ...


----------



## KO88

alterwisser said:


> Love, love Cleavers (now). I don’t think I’ll ever go back to using regular knives as my go to’s....
> 
> current cleaver Lineup:
> 
> - Full Size Kamon (240ish)... that one is insane, but almost too big



So is the Kamon useable or not? Thinking about oversized cleaver but ehh not sure? What is the height and weight?


----------



## alterwisser

KO88 said:


> So is the Kamon useable or not? Thinking about oversized cleaver but ehh not sure? What is the height and weight?



its usable, but not my sweet spot.

i think it weighs 428 IIRC

230x100, 1.2519 at 65 hrc


----------



## KO88

What would be tall enough height? 
Just because of weight I can imagine something like ~240x~90 ~500g not sure if possible. 

In 26c3 + wrought iron. Or mono with hamon?
What would be better u think guys?


----------



## alterwisser

KO88 said:


> What would be tall enough height?
> Just because of weight I can imagine something like ~240x~90 ~500g not sure if possible.
> 
> In 26c3 + wrought iron. Or mono with hamon?
> What would be better u think guys?



theres no “better” imho, it’s personal preference...


----------



## bruce8088

lemeneid said:


> Pretty much what Ricky has I want to try.
> 
> TF
> Wat
> Miz
> Takada
> Kemadi


IMO considering ootb + work involved + personal pref + considering price. TF>Tweaked Wat>Takeda>Mizuno>Kemadi. TF is the most balance ootb (hand feel excellent) and the continuous convex is well done practically, profile is great and just behind Wat in flat area. Wat was wonky just behind the edge ootb (hand feel was decent) but I fixed it in 2 sessions, now it cuts very nicely while still being decent for food separation, profile is great and mostly flat. Takeda is very thin behind edge while having an impressive forged hollow (hand feel excellent) that occupies 100mm out of the 110mm height, spine taper is also very impressive cuts well enough given how great the separation is, profile is a subtle continuous curve. Mizuno has an extreme convex grind into very thin near edge geometry at both tip and heel but very heavy knife (hand feel abit off), profile is between the TF and the Takeda. Kemadi had an extreme flat grind (hand feel was good) which lead to it being very sticky with the ootb etched finish (i ended up sanding it all off and finger stoned it which helped quite abit which Gavin is enjoying it now ), even though it may have cut the best out of all the cleavers since it's so extremely thin but for me it was actually much slower in use due to the stickiness, the bulat is toothy and very practical for real kitchen use but needs a bigger micro bevel than most to hold that thin edge stable, profile was abit odd for me with the upswing tip since i tend to use tips alot.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Yeah balance is so important for a cleaver especially a big one, probably with relation to the profile too. I’m getting the sense that even more than with a chef knife there isn’t one golden ratio of an answer, more of finding one that feels good for the user. That Kamon is the most beautiful I’ve ever seen!


----------



## spaceconvoy

Dunno.. once you get deep into the gyuto rabbit hole, you'll see passionate arguments about the difference between 53mm and 55mm heel heights  From what I've read, it seems like cleaver users fall generally into two categories - those who want more control over the blade and prefer thinner slicers, and those who want the weight of the knife to do most of the work and prefer medium weight cleavers. CCK vs Sugimoto, to simplify the debate.


----------



## cotedupy

alterwisser said:


> Love, love Cleavers (now). I don’t think I’ll ever go back to using regular knives as my go to’s....
> 
> current cleaver Lineup:
> 
> - Full Size Kamon (240ish)... that one is insane, but almost too big
> 
> - Smide in 1.2562 with wrought iron cladding. LOVE it. It’s gorgeous and a great performer
> 
> - Dalman Carbon with Hamon. Love that one as well. I think it’s his standard carbon UBC-20 or whatever it is...
> 
> - Dalman small cleaver (scrap) in AEB-L, it’s the one I abuse on a daily basis
> 
> -CcK 1303. Don’t use it much, maybe I should
> 
> - cheapo full metal Tim Leung or whatever the name is, had it thinned by @suntravel but badly chipped the edge .... I don’t know how :-(



That's a pretty swish collection you've got there! Particularly love the look of the Smide and Kamon.


----------



## cotedupy

This is my most used knife. Leung Tim Sang Dao #2. Roughly 215 x 105.


----------



## juice

cotedupy said:


> This is my most used knife. Leung Tim Sang Dao #2. Roughly 215 x 105.


Nice handle!


----------



## cotedupy

Heads up for our North American friends, particularly our north North American friends... CCK do appear to have a store in Toronto, and you can email them to order direct. I don't know if that was common knowledge, but I hadn't seen mentioned before I don't think. And might be useful for anyone who wanted one without becoming a customer of the other place. 加拿大多倫多分店


----------



## BillHanna

Sliiiiightly off topic: does anyone here own a duck slicer?


----------



## valgard

josemartinlopez said:


> What makes the geometry of a vegetable cleaver good?


Cutting vegetables easily and not sticking much (rather little with a slight tweak)


----------



## josemartinlopez

Any difference looking at a cleaver over a nakiri in terms of geometry?


----------



## cotedupy

BillHanna said:


> Sliiiiightly off topic: does anyone here own a duck slicer?



Weirdly, yes. I think my mother-in-law bought it in SE Asia a while back. It's quite a cheap SS one I think, and I've never used it for slicing duck. Tho it sharpened up quite nicely, and just gets used as a Nakiri.


----------



## cotedupy

josemartinlopez said:


> Any difference looking at a cleaver over a nakiri in terms of geometry?



How do you mean JML? There are some very obvious differences, and then in terms of grinds, and profiles, different cleavers and different nakiris and will be different amongst themselves...


----------



## Rangen

josemartinlopez said:


> Any difference looking at a cleaver over a nakiri in terms of geometry?



Can't speak to geometry, but I've not yet met a nakiri that I would gleefully whack into the cutting board, as I do with my cleavers.


----------



## alterwisser

Rangen said:


> Can't speak to geometry, but I've not yet met a nakiri that I would gleefully whack into the cutting board, as I do with my cleavers.


 
same here. A Nakiri is like a Cleaver that stopped growing way too early


----------



## Danzo

spaceconvoy said:


> Dunno.. once you get deep into the gyuto rabbit hole, you'll see passionate arguments about the difference between 53mm and 55mm heel heights  From what I've read, it seems like cleaver users fall generally into two categories - those who want more control over the blade and prefer thinner slicers, and those who want the weight of the knife to do most of the work and prefer medium weight cleavers. CCK vs Sugimoto, to simplify the debate.


Cck vs sugimoto are just the opposite ends of the spectrum. There’s everything in between to debate about.


----------



## Matus

josemartinlopez said:


> Any difference looking at a cleaver over a nakiri in terms of geometry?



Search function is your friend here:





__





Vegetable cleaver vs nakiri


The thread about future trends and Chef Doom's comment sparked a question in my mind. Instead of polluting the other thread, I am asking a separate question. What are the benefits of vegetable cleaver vs nakiri. I've used CCK 1303 and liked it a lot, not enough to give up gyutos, but I see how...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









__





Large Nakiri or Chinese Cleaver?


I see a lot of forum love professed for 180mm and larger Nakiri. How do these differ from something like a CM4030 Sugimoto Chinese Cleaver? Is it just a ~60mm versus ~95 blade height difference and the Wa handle? I can see some have a few subtle differences in the blade edge geometry but...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## XooMG

I've not been able to play the knife collecting game much, but I happened across a semi-local piece and it seemed like good workmanship for the price.

I suspect the steel is slightly soft compared to my preferences, but otherwise a nice little midweight slicer. 195*105, 392g.


----------



## cotedupy

XooMG said:


> I've not been able to play the knife collecting game much, but I happened across a semi-local piece and it seemed like good workmanship for the price.
> 
> I suspect the steel is slightly soft compared to my preferences, but otherwise a nice little midweight slicer. 195*105, 392g.



Looks great tbh! Nice size + weight too.

Where's local for you? (And if you don't mind me asking - how much was it?)


----------



## cotedupy

BillHanna said:


> Sliiiiightly off topic: does anyone here own a duck slicer?



Here is the aforementioned ss duck slicer. Brand looks to be 'O King Kee' or similar (?)

Looks a prime candidate for re-handling too!


----------



## tchan001

cotedupy said:


> Here is the aforementioned ss duck slicer. Brand looks to be 'O King Kee' or similar (?)
> 
> Looks a prime candidate for re-handling too!
> 
> View attachment 98108
> 
> 
> View attachment 98109


Ho Ching Kee Lee Knife Firm
Made In Hong Kong

Address: Unit R, G/F Fuk Keung Ind Bldg 66-68 Tong Mi Rd Tai Kok Tsui, Kowloon, Hong Kong

I have never been to this shop. Just googled it for you.

Found an old article from 2012 which has some info on this shop.








Chop, Steam, Eat — Culinary Adventures in Hong Kong


By Jean and Peter Richards China’s culinary history spills out onto Hong Kong’s sidewalks and streets in a splendid tapestry of color and texture amidst streaming humanity and a cacophony of voices…




oldmainetravelers.wordpress.com


----------



## alterwisser

cotedupy said:


> Looks great tbh! Nice size + weight too.
> 
> Where's local for you? (And if you don't mind me asking - how much was it?)



yes, please organize a group buy for us ;-)


----------



## cotedupy

tchan001 said:


> Ho Ching Kee Lee Knife Firm
> Made In Hong Kong
> 
> Address: Unit R, G/F Fuk Keung Ind Bldg 66-68 Tong Mi Rd Tai Kok Tsui, Kowloon, Hong Kong
> 
> I have never been to this shop. Just googled it for you.
> 
> Found an old article from 2012 which has some info on this shop.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chop, Steam, Eat — Culinary Adventures in Hong Kong
> 
> 
> By Jean and Peter Richards China’s culinary history spills out onto Hong Kong’s sidewalks and streets in a splendid tapestry of color and texture amidst streaming humanity and a cacophony of voices…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oldmainetravelers.wordpress.com



Ah, many thanks for the info!

(I had read about this producer before, don't know why I hadn't put 2+2 together.)


----------



## XooMG

cotedupy said:


> Looks great tbh! Nice size + weight too.
> 
> Where's local for you? (And if you don't mind me asking - how much was it?)


It was a bit under 70aud I guess. Probably overpaid a little, but I wanted to try it out. Local to me is Taiwan. I just say semi-local because it's from a different city.


----------



## alterwisser

XooMG said:


> It was a bit under 70aud I guess. Probably overpaid a little, but I wanted to try it out. Local to me is Taiwan. I just say semi-local because it's from a different city.



do you mind sending me the address of the shop? I have a friend in Taiwan right now who could bring one for me


----------



## cotedupy

XooMG said:


> It was a bit under 70aud I guess. Probably overpaid a little, but I wanted to try it out. Local to me is Taiwan. I just say semi-local because it's from a different city.



Well it looks great! Even if it is slightly soft steel I'd be chuffed 

(I'd also be interested to know the name of the shop if poss...)


----------



## 4wa1l

Bit of a bump for this thread but I'm keen to try a cleaver. I've narrowed it down to a CCK 1303/2, Suien VC or maybe the Kagayaki KG-20. 

Everyone knows the CCK and they seem to be the go to, but possibly overpriced for the quality? Does Leung Tim offer a similar alternative? 

The Suien is about double the cost of the CCK and at the limit of what I'd like to spend, but I've heard great things. Profile might be a bit curvy, but I don't think it's a deal breaker for me. Is it worth the extra?

Finally the Kagayaki. It's much smaller at 180x86mm so maybe it's not really a proper cleaver. But looks a bit cleaner than the CCK for a similar price.


----------



## tostadas

4wa1l said:


> Bit of a bump for this thread but I'm keen to try a cleaver. I've narrowed it down to a CCK 1303/2, Suien VC or maybe the Kagayaki KG-20.
> 
> Everyone knows the CCK and they seem to be the go to, but possibly overpriced for the quality? Does Leung Tim offer a similar alternative?
> 
> The Suien is about double the cost of the CCK and at the limit of what I'd like to spend, but I've heard great things. Profile might be a bit curvy, but I don't think it's a deal breaker for me. Is it worth the extra?
> 
> Finally the Kagayaki. It's much smaller at 180x86mm so maybe it's not really a proper cleaver. But looks a bit cleaner than the CCK for a similar price.



The CCK is a traditional style chinese cleaver with a round handle, and flat profile. The benefits over the others are weight and thinness of the blade, which is the thinnest that I've found of any chinese cleaver. I've seen a few carbon cleavers that are pretty thin, but none have been as laser thin as my CCK 1303.

I haven't used the other two, but from the photos and specs, there are some things that don't meet my tastes:

The suien profile is very curvy. I use my CCK as a veggie slicer, so the flat profile is very important to me. Also the weight difference 420g vs 250g is significant.

The kagayaki handle is a western style with flat sides. I'm particular to a round handle on a chinese cleaver. Also, I consider the CCK 1303 to be on the smaller end of what I'd like in an everyday knife. I used to have some 7-inch (180mm) cleavers of varying weights, but gave them all away because I found the length lacking.


----------



## Noodle Soup

4wa1l said:


> Bit of a bump for this thread but I'm keen to try a cleaver. I've narrowed it down to a CCK 1303/2, Suien VC or maybe the Kagayaki KG-20.
> 
> Everyone knows the CCK and they seem to be the go to, but possibly overpriced for the quality? Does Leung Tim offer a similar alternative?
> 
> The Suien is about double the cost of the CCK and at the limit of what I'd like to spend, but I've heard great things. Profile might be a bit curvy, but I don't think it's a deal breaker for me. Is it worth the extra?
> 
> Finally the Kagayaki. It's much smaller at 180x86mm so maybe it's not really a proper cleaver. But looks a bit cleaner than the CCK for a similar price.


If you go to Leung Tim's shop in Hong Kong they have an even wider variety of sizes and weights of cleavers than CCK. The problem is I don't know anyone in the US that really stocks a full line of this brand.


----------



## 4wa1l

Noodle Soup said:


> If you go to Leung Tim's shop in Hong Kong they have an even wider variety of sizes and weights of cleavers than CCK. The problem is I don't know anyone in the US that really stocks a full line of this brand.



Fortunately there is a store relatively close to me. Not sure how it compares to the Hong Kong store, but probably worth a look.


----------



## Danzo

4wa1l said:


> Bit of a bump for this thread but I'm keen to try a cleaver. I've narrowed it down to a CCK 1303/2, Suien VC or maybe the Kagayaki KG-20.
> 
> Everyone knows the CCK and they seem to be the go to, but possibly overpriced for the quality? Does Leung Tim offer a similar alternative?
> 
> The Suien is about double the cost of the CCK and at the limit of what I'd like to spend, but I've heard great things. Profile might be a bit curvy, but I don't think it's a deal breaker for me. Is it worth the extra?
> 
> Finally the Kagayaki. It's much smaller at 180x86mm so maybe it's not really a proper cleaver. But looks a bit cleaner than the CCK for a similar price.



cck and Suien are about as different as can be. You’ll eventually probably want a cck AND something else so just get one of them now and the other down the road


----------



## Danzo

Infact I just unboxed my new Suien. Spent the last half hour rounding the spine and choil, it was real square ootb but now it feels good. Edge is pretty thin, real good in fact for the price. Handle is quite beautiful, nice bright grain pattern when the light hits it. we will see how much I like the belly, if it drives me nuts I’ll probably have daniel O’Malley make it flatter.






On that note does anyone know the best way to remove that stupid sandblast finish? I foresee that dragging on onions tomorrow


----------



## 4wa1l

I think I've settled on the Leung Tim to start. Similar to the CCK and cheaper. I figure that way if I like it I can spend more on something nicer later.

I much prefer the look of the Suien though. They look nice and clean with no kuro finish and the simple western handle.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

I don’t have a better idea than sandpaper, so I’d say sandpaper. I’m still a noob at cleavers but somehow haven’t noticed as much of a difference between belly vs flat as I would with gyuto, but that’s pretty curvy, I’m interested to hear if it’s easier, more finicky, or the same to use


----------



## cotedupy

4wa1l said:


> I think I've settled on the Leung Tim to start. Similar to the CCK and cheaper. I figure that way if I like it I can spend more on something nicer later.
> 
> I much prefer the look of the Suien though. They look nice and clean with no kuro finish and the simple western handle.



BTW - LT in Burwood have quite a few without the KU, but not I don't think with yo handles (there's an insane amount of choice tho!)

Looking forward to seeing what you come out with  

Also - It will need sharpening when you get, they're not razor like straight off.


----------



## jankdc

The Kiwi 21 was the one I reached for 90% of the time for at least 5 years. For the last few months I've been using the San Han NGA #2 that I had in my basement. I picked it up years ago at a yard sale. I've decided that I really like cleavers and am ready for an upgrade. The San Han has a consistent thickness throughout the blade.


----------



## M1k3

I got a question for you cleaver aficionado's. Have you found any with similar performance to Yoshikane knives?


----------



## Danzo

M1k3 said:


> I got a question for you cleaver aficionado's. Have you found any with similar performance to Yoshikane knives?


What do you mean?


----------



## M1k3

Danzo said:


> What do you mean?


I've tried a very, very small sample of cleavers. Each one I've tried has had bad suction, making it aggravating to cut with one. The weight helps making a cut. Then produce, like a zucchini, wants to suction to the blade. 

Was just using Yoshikane as an example of something common with great cutting feel.


----------



## Danzo

Yeah that’s kind ofwhat you get with cleavers. Sugimoto 6 is the exception I would say.


----------



## damiano

Just saw this excellent youtube vid where this well known Chinese chef showcases some of his cleaver skills:


----------



## alterwisser

M1k3 said:


> I've tried a very, very small sample of cleavers. Each one I've tried has had bad suction, making it aggravating to cut with one. The weight helps making a cut. Then produce, like a zucchini, wants to suction to the blade.
> 
> Was just using Yoshikane as an example of something common with great cutting feel.



my Smide cleaver doesn’t have suction problems, not with Zuccini at least. Of course some foods are stickier than others


----------



## spaceconvoy

Wahnamhong said:


> Just saw this excellent youtube vid where this well known Chinese chef showcases some of his cleaver skills:



Nice, he's using my favorite cleaver, the CCK 1912 small stainless slicer. Maybe the chinese equivalent of western michelin star restaurants that use victorinox.


----------



## cotedupy

spaceconvoy said:


> Nice, he's using my favorite cleaver, the CCK 1912 small stainless slicer. Maybe the chinese equivalent of western michelin star restaurants that use victorinox.



I was about to ask how you could tell it was stainless, but then noticed on the website... the SS knives have gold coloured metal collars, whereas the carbon versions have silver, and black for KU.


----------



## Danzo

More updates on Suien VC. Stock profile blows. It has an impossible curve to it. And some mega sharp spine and choils. First step was to take care and round those out. Reprofile is done, now I’m flattening the bevels and putting in a asymmetrical edge. Probably got another hour or so of thinning and an hour of refinishing the polish. She ugly now but will be a beauty soon


----------



## 4wa1l

Just unpacked these two. Leung Tim #2 and #3 mulberry choppers. One for myself and a mate. I'll be keeping the bigger one (#2). Almost could've gone for a larger slicer. There isn't a huge difference in size, but the weight difference is quite noticable. About 290g vs 340g. Pretty stoked to try it.


----------



## Danzo

4wa1l said:


> Just unpacked these two. Leung Tim #2 and #3 mulberry choppers. One for myself and a mate. I'll be keeping the bigger one (#2). Almost could've gone for a larger slicer. There isn't a huge difference in size, but the weight difference is quite noticable. About 290g vs 340g. Pretty stoked to try it.
> 
> View attachment 103333



are these veggie choppers or bone boys?


----------



## 4wa1l

Danzo said:


> are these veggie choppers or bone boys?



Veggie choppers. When I called the Leung Tim store here they said that they were their small slicer models. I figured I would try something like the CCK 130x series. These ended up quite a bit cheaper w/ shipping in Aus too. No idea how they compare in use but I think the specs are similar.


----------



## cotedupy

4wa1l said:


> Veggie choppers. When I called the Leung Tim store here they said that they were their small slicer models. I figured I would try something like the CCK 130x series. These ended up quite a bit cheaper w/ shipping in Aus too. No idea how they compare in use but I think the specs are similar.



Nice hombre! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts... I *think* their large slicers are slightly slimmer than this range from when I spoke to Monica the other day, tho it's a difference marginal in person. The Mulberry Chopper #2 is a great knife 

Do sharpen them up a bit before use!


----------



## Noodle Soup

Anybody know what the term "mulberry chopper" means? Far as I know the Chinese don't eat a lot of mulberry leaves. They do raise silk worms that eat mulberry. Is this something about feeding their caterpillars.


----------



## bruce8088

Noodle Soup said:


> Anybody know what the term "mulberry chopper" means? Far as I know the Chinese don't eat a lot of mulberry leaves. They do raise silk worms that eat mulberry. Is this something about feeding their caterpillars.



mulberry knife model basically means it's thin because it can cut items into as thin as mulberry leaves.


----------



## jankdc

I was at the market recently and noticed that the Shi Ba Zi P02 was thinned towards the edge and decided to give it a try. I sanded the corners of the spine and underneath the handle. I sharpened it and used some sandpaper horizontally on the blade. Not bad for $15. It definitely cuts through and releases larger vegetables better than the San Han NGA #2, but I like the heft and straightness of the San Han blade better.


----------



## FishmanDE

recs on an affordable bone cleaver?


----------



## jankdc

FishmanDE said:


> recs on an affordable bone cleaver?


If you are close to an Asian market, I would just get a Chinese style bone cleaver. Mine has both SS and carbon for under $20.


----------



## tostadas

My CCK slicer is becoming a problem as of late. 

I find myself gravitating toward it more and more for all tasks including vegetable prep, portioning proteins, slicing cooked meats, and even deboning chickens. It combines the thinness of a laser with the weight of a 240mm workhorse into a 210mm package, and as an added bonus I dont even need to pull out the bench scraper to transfer stuff. It also makes everything else look bad by coming in at a fraction of the cost of my "budget" J-knives.

OK that's my rant. Need to cool off now. Maybe shop for another knife to buy.


----------



## ExistentialHero

tostadas said:


> My CCK slicer is becoming a problem as of late.
> 
> I find myself gravitating toward it more and more for all tasks including vegetable prep, portioning proteins, slicing cooked meats, and even deboning chickens. It combines the thinness of a laser with the weight of a 240mm workhorse into a 210mm package, and as an added bonus I dont even need to pull out the bench scraper to transfer stuff. It also makes everything else look bad by coming in at a fraction of the cost of my "budget" J-knives.
> 
> OK that's my rant. Need to cool off now. Maybe shop for another knife to buy.



If you want to spend more money, Laseur or Watanabe will be happy to take it


----------



## spaceconvoy

tostadas said:


> My CCK slicer is becoming a problem as of late.
> 
> I find myself gravitating toward it more and more for all tasks including vegetable prep, portioning proteins, slicing cooked meats, and even deboning chickens. It combines the thinness of a laser with the weight of a 240mm workhorse into a 210mm package, and as an added bonus I dont even need to pull out the bench scraper to transfer stuff. It also makes everything else look bad by coming in at a fraction of the cost of my "budget" J-knives.
> 
> OK that's my rant. Need to cool off now. Maybe shop for another knife to buy.


That was my problem too, so I rebuilt my collection around the slicer. I want more length sometimes, so I've kept a 270mm wa-gyuto. Had to trade up for a 180mm yo-petty because I like having that narrowness but my old 150mm started feeling too short. Rounded out with an 80mm paring knife for in-hand work.


----------



## damiano

Same issue here. After having used a cleaver for multiple years, this year I've started branching out into e.g. gyutos. I find it hard to adjust, a cleaver is just quicker and more convenient. 

Length is indeed what complements my Sugimoto SF4030 nicely so that makes a great spot for a sujihiki. Likewise I enjoy a smaller mini 165mm gyuto. But my 225 gyuto has been untouched for over 2 months!


----------



## jankdc

I just saw a box from Action Sales. I think I'm getting a 1302 Slicer tomorrow.


----------



## Jovidah

Wahnamhong said:


> Same issue here. After having used a cleaver for multiple years, this year I've started branching out into e.g. gyutos. I find it hard to adjust, a cleaver is just quicker and more convenient.
> 
> Length is indeed what complements my Sugimoto SF4030 nicely so that makes a great spot for a sujihiki. Likewise I enjoy a smaller mini 165mm gyuto. But my 225 gyuto has been untouched for over 2 months!


Dibs! 

By the way, did you find a proper cleaver in the Netherlands somewhere or did you import it yourself? I looked around a few times but could never find anything myself.


----------



## jankdc

jankdc said:


> I just saw a box from Action Sales. I think I'm getting a 1302 Slicer tomorrow.


----------



## JimMaple98

Anyone have any experience with Togashi Cleavers? They fit the specs I am aiming for but I can’t find any reviews, or are there comparable alternatives?








Hitohira Togashi White #2 Chinese Cleaver 220mm Ho Wood Handle (#6)


Detailed SpecBrand: Hitohira ひとひら (一片) Smith: Togashi Blacksmith 富樫打刃物製作所 Producing Area: Sakai-Osaka/ Japan Profile: Chinese Cleaver Size: 220mm Steel Type: Carbon Steel Steel: Yasuki White (Shirogami) #2, Soft Iron Clad Handle: Ho Wood & Buffalo Horn Ferrule Octagonal Total Length: 384mm Edge...




hitohira-japan.com


----------



## Noodle Soup

Pretty high end cleaver but then I'm not that unhappy with CCK and similar brands.


----------



## JimMaple98

Noodle Soup said:


> Pretty high end cleaver but then I'm not that unhappy with CCK and similar brands.


i have a cck but has been a bad experience, botched heat treat and massive amounts of overgrind in mine.but love using cleavers


----------



## alterwisser

Anyone ever tried to torch the handle of the CCK?


----------



## RDalman

alterwisser said:


> Anyone ever tried to torch the handle of the CCK?


Sand off any laquer remains and do it! 240 grit is enough. And show


----------



## alterwisser

RDalman said:


> Sand off any laquer remains and do it! 240 grit is enough. And show



i still dont have a torch


----------



## JimMaple98

alterwisser said:


> i still dont have a torch


Gas stove top?


----------



## alterwisser

JimMaple98 said:


> Gas stove top?



induction


----------



## cotedupy

4wa1l said:


> Just unpacked these two. Leung Tim #2 and #3 mulberry choppers. One for myself and a mate. I'll be keeping the bigger one (#2). Almost could've gone for a larger slicer. There isn't a huge difference in size, but the weight difference is quite noticable. About 290g vs 340g. Pretty stoked to try it.
> 
> View attachment 103333



What was the verdict? Enjoying yours...?


----------



## 4wa1l

cotedupy said:


> What was the verdict? Enjoying yours...?


I have only used it briefly and have been grabbing my other knives instead of it as I didn't click with it like I have my other knives. I need to get it out more to give it a proper try.


----------



## cotedupy

4wa1l said:


> I have only used it briefly and have been grabbing my other knives instead of it as I didn't click with it like I have my other knives. I need to get it out more to give it a proper try.



Interesting... 

My wife (who tbh has far better knife skills than I do, has worked in kitchens &c.) is similar - she doesn't touch any of my Chinese cleavers. When I first got one I was coming off a far lower base experience and skill-set than her in terms of using 'traditionally' shaped kitchen knives, and got the hang of cleaver quite quickly. 

They are quite different things to use, and I suspect that muscle memory for people who have more experience with Western or Japanese knives than I did/do, perhaps means that Caidao &c. are a fairly alien learning curve. The larger one that you kept is still my go-to knife 90% of the time, I just love it, but I can see that they may not be for everyone. 

If you didn't try already - my no.1 tip for using them is to use a grip with your thumb, and then both index and middle finger in a V shape down the other side of the blade. Without this grip I'd find them a bit of a pain I imagine.

Hope you're keeping well and safe in NSW!


----------



## damiano

Great video on cleavers.


----------



## mokk

Any European sources for CCK, Leung Tim and alike?
Find the markups in eBay compared to domestic prices ridiculous.
Shibazi is the only brand available through AliExpress with little to no markup, might end up getting a F208 otherwise...


----------



## daddy yo yo

mokk said:


> Any European sources for CCK, Leung Tim and alike?
> Find the markups in eBay compared to domestic prices ridiculous.
> Shibazi is the only brand available through AliExpress with little to no markup, might end up getting a F208 otherwise...


Not that I am aware of. The question isn't if the markup over domestic prices is fair or unfair or whatever you want to call it. The question is, do you have any other option? I just bought a CCK from eB** because I wanted to see what the fuzz is all about and I prefer the look of CCK over any other Chinese brand. As they're not available in EU I went for import.

Also bought a stainless (VG-10) Tojiro F-921 (thin) but I am almost sure it will end up on BST sooner or later...


----------



## mokk

daddy yo yo said:


> The question is...



Might be your question, not mine though.
The point I was trying to make was that CCK and SBZ seem to linger in a similar price range if you deduct the CCK markups from the resellers - which is not the case for SBZ on Aliexpress pretty much reflecting domestic prices. 
So I'm wondering if they're accordingly also range in a similar build quality or what sets them apart.


----------



## daddy yo yo

mokk said:


> The point I was trying to make was that CCK and SBZ seem to linger in a similar price range if you deduct the CCK markups from the resellers - which is not the case for SBZ on Aliexpress pretty much reflecting domestic prices.
> So I'm wondering if they're accordingly also range in a similar build quality or what sets them apart.


What sets them apart clearly is different sales strategies. Apparently CCK doesn't (have to?) sell through aliex***** and/or direct. Are you on German KMS? There are reviews from CCK KF1303 and Shibazi F208-1 (and others).


----------



## Viggetorr

mokk said:


> Any European sources for CCK, Leung Tim and alike?
> Find the markups in eBay compared to domestic prices ridiculous.
> Shibazi is the only brand available through AliExpress with little to no markup, might end up getting a F208 otherwise...











Knivar


CCK, Hong Kongs bästa kinesiska knivar.



hkknives.se





Swedish site, but I'd be very surprised if they wouldn't reply in english to email. They only have the 191X-series on their site, but they write that they have access to all CCK products, so you could probably just send a mail and ask for whatever you want. There's certainly a markup here as well, though.


----------



## mokk

daddy yo yo said:


> German KMS



What's that? You have a link to those comparisons you are referring to?
Would be interested. Couldn't find any direct comparisons.


----------



## tostadas

mokk said:


> What's that? You have a link to those comparisons you are referring to?
> Would be interested. Couldn't find any direct comparisons.


I'm pretty sure I compared them directly for you in the other cleaver thread


----------



## BillHanna

I’ve gone from a Shiro 1 iron clad TF to a 75mm tall nakiri, and now I have a CCK 1303 in the mail. I seem to keep wanting something taller and taller. After playing around with a Dao Vua cleaver, I find my grip on allll my knives has creeped all the way up, and I like it. In hand, is the 1103 significantly bigger?


----------



## KO88

So have anyone purchased the Tanaka from JNS???


----------



## Moooza

KO88 said:


> So have anyone purchased the Tanaka from JNS???


I'm curious too, very tempted.


----------



## bruce8088

the cleaver on there may be slightly wedgy due to the rapid falloff to a thin edge from the thickish mid body. on shorter stuff it'll likely be fine but in general, gradual convex while being thin enough would usually cut alot better than rapid falloff into a thin edge geometry.


----------



## Danzo

KO88 said:


> So have anyone purchased the Tanaka from JNS???


saw that. nice KU on it.


----------



## natto

mokk said:


> Any European sources for CCK, Leung Tim and alike?
> Find the markups in eBay compared to domestic prices ridiculous.
> Shibazi is the only brand available through AliExpress with little to no markup, might end up getting a F208 otherwise...


I have a nice ChinShun (Pai 4). ugou.de offered that online, but the listing is gone. Sorry.

Mine was bought local, the supplier should have been tsienyen.com. Now they offer some Double Lions, Knives from Taiwan and some other. The model Taiwan may be worth a look. The thin one in full size should be ok. The edge cold be a bit finer iirc. Next month I can check it.


----------



## anko

Been using this Sakai Kikumori Gokujyo, purchased from Miura, for home meal prep last few months. W2, 220x110, 470g. I've spent an hour on it with a Gesshin 220 trying to make it cut overgrown dense winter root vegetables better, followed by a lazy refinish. Great service from Miura and I really enjoy the knife, right combo of edge profile / weight / aesthetics for me.


----------



## natto

> Any European sources for CCK, Leung Tim and alike?





natto said:


> I have a nice ChinShun (Pai 4). ugou.de offered that online, but the listing is gone. Sorry.
> 
> Mine was bought local, the supplier should have been tsienyen.com. Now they offer some Double Lions, Knives from Taiwan and some other. The model Taiwan may be worth a look. The thin one in full size should be ok. The edge cold be a bit finer iirc. Next month I can check it.


Good news from germany, ChinChun is available again. It was my first cleaver, my main knife til now.
218 * 108,
105 tip, 106 heel
370g
0.75mm at 1cm

Afaik it showed a small wave on the nail when new, first try was fun. Low reactivity hints a little chromium involved. Pics taken after some years of use. original size is about 24*18mm  48*36mm, first pic is out of angle
front




heel





look and size is the same with this heavy cleaver


----------



## inferno

hey guys look at this reindeer cleaver!


----------



## cotedupy

The addiction is getting worse...

A few weeks back I got my utterly lovely Shibata Tinker Tank, and thought to myself: _'Right, that's it. Your cleaver collection is now complete!'_











And then a couple of days ago I was in a Chinese kitchenware shop in a Melbourne suburb and noticed they had some quite nicely priced CCKs behind the counter 

In my defence - I _have_ been looking for CCK in Aus for a little while, and they _did_ happen to have the two knives I particularly wanted; 1302 and 2204 'Rhino'.






Do I have a problem?


----------



## BillHanna

I’m becoming a bit cleaver-ish myself, in the past month. The first three are the newest kids on the block.


----------



## Noodle Soup

Do you have a particular use for the 2204? I know in China and other parts of Asia they are used as heavy duty butcher knives to break down whole pork carcasses but that is something I seldom do myself. And yes I have one I brought back from a trip, just have never used it for anything.


----------



## HSC /// Knives

I'm working on this cleaver in 26C3 for a good customer


----------



## inferno

how high/what angle should the bevel be on a cleaver?


----------



## GorillaGrunt

I usually make them bigger than other knives because 1) the steel on the Chinese ones tends to be softer and 2) the geometry is thinner over the greater height. The one Japanese one I had I did like any other J-knife though.


----------



## cotedupy

Noodle Soup said:


> Do you have a particular use for the 2204? I know in China and other parts of Asia they are used a heavy duty butcher knives to break down whole pork carcasses but that is something I seldom do myself. And yes I have one I brought back from a trip, just have never used it for anything.



Ha! Err... yes... I mostly bought it cos it looks cool.

Having said that - whenever I buy a new cleaver my wife's response goes along the lines of: _'Can I use it to go through bones? If not then it's not a real cleaver is it.' _So hopefully it'll keep her happy. And her father is a cattle farmer and we often have cows (or parts thereof) in the freezer, so it might get to see some real work too.

(Not that I'd have the faintest idea about how to butcher a cow!)


----------



## Noodle Soup

cotedupy said:


> Ha! Err... yes... I mostly bought it cos it looks cool.
> 
> Having said that - whenever I buy a new cleaver my wife's response goes along the lines of: _'Can I use it to go through bones? If not then it's not a real cleaver is it.' _So hopefully it'll keep her happy. And her father is a cattle farmer and we often have cows (or parts thereof) in the freezer, so it might get to see some real work too.
> 
> (Not that I'd have the faintest idea about how to butcher a cow!)


Like I said, I brought one home from my first trip to China too. They actually make those in the same dimensions but different weights. Thin ones for slicing meat and heavy ones for chopping through bones. You can't tell the difference without picking them up and looking at the spine thickness.


----------



## cotedupy

Noodle Soup said:


> Like I said, I brought one home from my first trip to China too. They actually make those in the same dimensions but different weights. Thin ones for slicing meat and heavy ones for chopping through bones. You can't tell the difference without picking them up and looking at the spine thickness.



Aye. This one should go through bones, though perhaps not cow bones.

(I've noticed with a few brands that you can tell also by the handle: With the handles that have four grooves in them being used for slicers, and handles with lots of grooves used for bones/butchery knives.)


----------



## natto

My meat cleaver has got the weight to form dough for dumplings. That ist fun. Even more fun to people watching.


----------



## cotedupy

inferno said:


> how high/what angle should the bevel be on a cleaver?



Something I do, which seems to work for me, and is pretty convenient is take the sharpening angle as the width of my thumb at the spine. (For 90 - 100mm tall Caidao.)

If I could remember anything about geometry from school I'd measure my thumb and work the angle out for you. But I can't.


----------



## cotedupy

BillHanna said:


> I’m becoming a bit cleaver-ish myself, in he past month. The first three are the newest kids on the block. View attachment 121111



What do you think of the Daovua?


----------



## ian

cotedupy said:


> Something I do, which seems to work for me, and is pretty convenient is take the sharpening angle as the width of my thumb at the spine. (For 90 - 100mm tall Caidao.)
> 
> If I could remember anything about geometry from school I'd measure my thumb and work the angle out for you. But I can't.



That would be around 15 degrees with my thumb.

In general, if you want the angle, type

“arcsin( 25 / 100 ) in degrees” into google search, replacing 25 with the width of your thumb (or generally, the height of the spine when sharpening) in mm and replacing 100 with the height of the cleaver.

If you know the angle you want, say 15 degrees, type

“100 sin(15 degrees)”

into google search, replacing 100 with the height of the cleaver and 15 with your desired angle, and it’ll spit out the height you need the spine


----------



## BillHanna

cotedupy said:


> What do you think of the Daovua?


Not much. I only use it to make big pieces of meat into smaller, irregular pieces of meat. I might attempt to sell it, or throw it in with my next sale. I'm eyeing up a Matsubara shiro 1 cleaver on CKTG, now.


----------



## cotedupy

ian said:


> That would be around 15 degrees with my thumb



That sounds about right. My angle may be a touch bigger; I thought I did them just a little higher angle than most of my knives... but maybe not.

[Edit - yeah just worked mine out - comes out about pretty much 15 degrees too.]


----------



## Noodle Soup

cotedupy said:


> What do you think of the Daovua?


I really like mine. Probably one of my favorite light veg. work Chinese (Viet) cleavers. Kind of replaced the one I bought in Hanoi but then I'm always finding a new favorite. This is a hobby not a profession these days.


----------



## captaincaed

ian said:


> That would be around 15 degrees with my thumb.
> 
> In general, if you want the angle, type
> 
> “arcsin( 25 / 100 ) in degrees” into google search, replacing 25 with the width of your thumb (or generally, the height of the spine when sharpening) in mm and replacing 100 with the height of the cleaver.
> 
> If you know the angle you want, say 15 degrees, type
> 
> “100 sin(15 degrees)”
> 
> into google search, replacing 100 with the height of the cleaver and 15 with your desired angle, and it’ll spit out the height you need the spine


I think this should get pinned to your knife definitions note. Or maybe we need a new pinned note in the sharpening section. Gangsta.


----------



## GorillaGrunt

Noodle Soup said:


> I really like mine. Probably one of my favorite light veg. work Chinese (Viet) cleavers. Kind of replaced the one I bought in Hanoi but then I'm always finding a new favorite. This is a hobby not a profession these days.



i like mine too, I’d call it better value than CcK for the comparable price. Mine is definitely not straight, looking at it makes me think there’s no way this thing should cut right — but somehow it does and easily too.


----------



## cotedupy

ian said:


> That would be around 15 degrees with my thumb.
> 
> In general, if you want the angle, type
> 
> “arcsin( 25 / 100 ) in degrees” into google search, replacing 25 with the width of your thumb (or generally, the height of the spine when sharpening) in mm and replacing 100 with the height of the cleaver.
> 
> If you know the angle you want, say 15 degrees, type
> 
> “100 sin(15 degrees)”
> 
> into google search, replacing 100 with the height of the cleaver and 15 with your desired angle, and it’ll spit out the height you need the spine



Ah yes... trigonometry... It's all coming back to me now. SOH CAH TOA, and smoking behind the bike sheds.


----------



## BillHanna

I just quickly touched up my CCK1303 for the first time(shapton 1500). That first slice into a potato made me cackle. I stopped after 1.5 spuds to share this. That is all.

Bored Person reading this that doesn’t have one. Buy one from action sales. Supply15 is the discount code. Do it.


----------



## cotedupy

Nice sunny day here, so I thought I'd do a lineup of what I currently have.

On top: Shibata Tinker Tank. Then from L to R: Leung Tim Kau Kong, Two Lions #3 (going soon as a present for someone), Leung Tim Sangdao #2, CCK 1302, Leung Tim Slicer (equivalent of 1103), CCK 2204 Rhino.

I do actually have another Leung Tim which I'm going to do a bit of restoring on. And a Two Lions bone cleaver as well, but I've no idea where that is. Seems quite a conspicuous thing to have lost.







As I was composing this picture I used one of them to kill not one, but two, White Tips. It often goes unremarked upon but one of the key features of the design of caidao is the flat of the blade - perfectly engineered for smacking down hard... THWACK!... on poisonous spiders. Or garlic or whatever if you live in a less 'exciting' country.


----------



## peterm

That's a nice looking lineup!


----------



## cotedupy

peterm said:


> That's a nice looking lineup!



Ta! They do look pretty cool all together like that. I now need to figure out making some kind of storage / display thing, as they currently just kinda sit on top of each other in a drawer atm.


----------



## peterm

This inspired me to dig out my veggie slicer cleavers. CCK on top; left to right is Sugimoto, Ashi, Pierre Rodrigue w/ Alabama damascus, Hattori forum knife. I need more hands!


----------



## boomchakabowwow

I want to play.

I only have two. but the CCK 1303 gets the nod 90% of the time. I have to consciously make an effort to use another knife. small cuts, big cuts, a cleaver gets it done.

they are so important to me, they ride shotgun. all other blades are in a dark drawer. . they are both shaving sharp. the Taiwan one might be sharper, I am slowly working a blade ding out of it. me being dumb.


----------



## BillHanna

Fredrik Spåre put some up on IG. That might be my first custom.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

BillHanna said:


> Fredrik Spåre put some up on IG. That might be my first custom.


I refuse to go look!! dang.


----------



## demcav

A new cleaver in the house...

Blade is 52100, 203mm x 95mm (8" x 3.75"), 297 grams, with integral bolster, forced patina (vinegar)
Handle and saya pen - stabilized Bog Oak
Saya - Rainbow Poplar

This was a custom order from Steve Grosvenor (Red Rock Tools in South Dakota) that arrived today. A Tall Gyuto that I have from Steve inspired me to request a Chinese cleaver from him, also. Steve is great to work with and produced exactly what I asked for. It's based on my CCK, but with some very *special* upgrades! The balance point is right at the pinch grip.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

damn. that is a fine looking cleaver? how does it cut?

tempted to email the guy and ask if he could make me a 4.5" paring knife..hmmm


----------



## demcav

I used it to make a mushroom soup tonight. Onions and celery are a fine dice and mushrooms are thinly sliced. As you can see, this knife had no problem with either of the cuts, and it is VERY comfortable in the hand. I'd say contact Steve about what you want in a parer, and he will very honestly work with you to give you what you would like to have.


----------



## cotedupy

My wife bought me this in antique/salvage shop at the weekend. Gyuto for scale.

Just in case y'know anyone's got any stray elephants that need chopping up or anything...


----------



## xxxclx

cotedupy said:


> My wife bought me this in antique/salvage shop at the weekend. Gyuto for scale.
> 
> Just in case y'know anyone's got any stray elephants that need chopping up or anything...
> 
> View attachment 127462



Might come in handy against those pesky emus down under


----------



## anko

Couple new slicing cleavers on Watanabe's website, a bit smaller/lighter than what I've seen. Might make some people here happy!


----------



## Pertti

Very into cleavers now recently. I currently have only this Zwilling 6" meat cleaver in my posession, but just ordered a CCK 1102 large carbon slicer and a Sugimoto CM4030 stainless small cleaver. The Zwilling has served me well when I've needed to hack through something, but its so thick that so far I've found it basically useless for anything else.







Currently having a hard time not ordering more before I get the ones already coming to me lol. 

I feel like I want something in between still. So thinking about a cck 1302. Is it of the same thinnes compared to a 1303, but thinner than my 1102? I've understood that the 130x are the lazors. 

Then again I'm not sure if I'd actually want a 1912 stainless instead to be the mid size. Is this one much thicker than the 1302? The 130x seem to be the rage though..

Also noticed these Fook Kee cleavers, but not sure I could source these anywhere to EU. These are apparently not as widely known. The mulberry slicer here seems like an interesting option. Havent contacted razorsharp. Noticed that also this Israeli shop is selling them.










Chinese Knives (FOOK KEE)


Suitable for chopping through bone with it's heavy weight and thicker edge.



www.razorsharp.com.sg













סכיני מטבח סיניים מסורתיים מבית פוק קיי - היקארי סכיני שף


פוק קיי הוא מותג סכינים סיניים מסורתיים. הם מייצרים מגוון רחב מאוד של סכיני סיניים מכל הצורות הסוגים והגדלים. את סכינים של פוק קיי מייצר הנפח וו קוואן שאנג.



www.japanese-knives.co.il


----------



## goatgolfer

alterwisser said:


> can you specify your question?
> 
> you’re asking a very generic question. Steel, grind, F&F.... there’s so much you can or could be talking about.
> 
> a CCK is a decent knife, a good one with some tweaking. But you can get one that is similar to it for $15... I think the CCK is overpriced, even though it’s relatively cheap.
> 
> performance is a tricky beast. If you’re just looking for a well performing knife, there’s no need to Spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars. A $600 knife often doesn’t perform significantly better than a $150 knife, and a $4000 doesn’t perform significantly better than either one....
> 
> i am sure you understand there’s more to buying and collecting knives than performance. I mean, you’ve been around this forum, right?


??? What do you think is a $15 equivalent to a CCK (X)? Or I could buy 3 of the $15 in different sizes. 
Any suggestions?


----------



## pavhav

Does anyone have experience with the Matsubara Kiri Cleaver? A bit small and not cheap, but the stainless cladding may make it easier to maintain? Keep rereading the options mentioned here and vacillate between the simple Chinese carbon cleavers, and their pricier Japanese counterparts.


----------



## Nagakin

Might be back on team cleaver after thinning a Sugimoto #7 to like a 6.5.


----------



## cotedupy

goatgolfer said:


> ??? What do you think is a $15 equivalent to a CCK (X)? Or I could buy 3 of the $15 in different sizes.
> Any suggestions?



I've bought and used quite a few Two Lions Brand cleavers which come in about $10 USD. The F&F is not that of the better brands. But they're pretty acceptable knives, and astonishing for the money.


----------



## Noodle Soup

Nagakin said:


> Might be back on team cleaver after thinning a Sugimoto #7 to like a 6.5.


Not sure why you would want to do that. I use my No. 7 for heavy chopping the thin vegetable models aren't suit for. That required raising the edge bevels, not lowering them. There are plenty of thin blades out there but not too many of the medium weight choppers.


----------



## Nagakin

Noodle Soup said:


> Not sure why you would want to do that. I use my No. 7 for heavy chopping the thin vegetable models aren't suit for. That required raising the edge bevels, not lowering them. There are plenty of thin blades out there but not too many of the medium weight choppers.


There are only bone cleavers and everything else cleavers to me. I don't have chopping and slicing cleavers for the same reason I don't have chopping and slicing gyuto. That sounds insane to me. Thin or middleweight, I'm using it for everything or it sucks and I share the same sentiment about any general Chef's knife. 

Some are more suited to one than the other, but that doesn't eliminate the ability to do both. Having an extra 70g (so like a #6.7 if we want to be more accurate) and the same thinness behind the edge has a lot of benefits for southeast Asian cuisine in particular. Sugimoto steel is great and can take it.


----------



## Noodle Soup

Nagakin said:


> There are only bone cleavers and everything else cleavers to me. I don't have chopping and slicing cleavers for the same reason I don't have chopping and slicing gyuto. That sounds insane to me. Thin or middleweight, I'm using it for everything or it sucks and I share the same sentiment about any general Chef's knife.
> 
> Some are more suited to one than the other, but that doesn't eliminate the ability to do both. Having an extra 70g (so like a #6.7 if we want to be more accurate) and the same thinness behind the edge has a lot of benefits for southeast Asian cuisine in particular. Sugimoto steel is great and can take it.


My No. 7 wasn't up to small stuff like chicken bones when I received it. So I raised the edge bevel angles a little. OK now. I mostly use it for mincing raw meat and fish (think "laap") but it is also great for making stock from left over poultry bones. A thin, light blade doesn't do that well. As for a bone chopper, you need to define what kind of bone. For me it means chicken, waterfowl, large fish and maybe small pork bones like ribs. I don't chop up the large beef and pork type bones.


----------



## Nagakin

Noodle Soup said:


> My No. 7 wasn't up to small stuff like chicken bones when I received it. So I raised the edge bevel angles a little. OK now. I mostly use it for mincing raw meat and fish (think "laap") but it is also great for making stock from left over poultry bones. A thin, light blade doesn't do that well. As for a bone chopper, you need to define what kind of bone. For me it means chicken, waterfowl, large fish and maybe small pork bones like ribs. I don't chop up the large beef and pork type bones.


I would be happy using my 7 for all of the above, tbh. Chicken bones and similar are fine at home, but I'll use something else if dealing with cases or palettes. I really treat it like any another gyuto.

For bones I mean pork or like a large catfish spine, which I have my grandma's old "yard" cleaver for.


----------



## BillHanna

cotedupy said:


> There are a few smaller versions, the link I posted above shows the selection made by CCK for instance. Tho I'd probably say they might just not be for you, and a tall Nakiri would be better.
> 
> I'd personally probably want your Dao Vua to be taller if anything. The grip that I think is ideal for this kind of cleaver involves your index and middle fingers extended in a v-shape down the outside of the blade, with your thumb on the inside. This gives a level of control which you can't really get on less tall cleavers, because your fingers would extend over the edge. And which, kinda counter-intuitively, makes smaller cleavers less easy to use.
> 
> Did that make sense...?
> 
> EDIT - So actually you might be a cleaver guy, but just need a _bigger_ one


@coxhaus Here we go.


----------



## stringer

cotedupy said:


> I've bought and used quite a few Two Lions Brand cleavers which come in about $10 USD. The F&F is not that of the better brands. But they're pretty acceptable knives, and astonishing for the money.



I like all the numeric animal ones.
2 Lions
2 Sheep
3 Rams


----------



## cotedupy

stringer said:


> I like all the numeric animal ones.
> 2 Lions
> 2 Sheep
> 3 Rams



You're gonna have to knock yourself up some kind of storage vessel if you carry on like that Noah.


----------



## coxhaus

I thought 2 Lions was a French thing? I the more lions you had means a better knife. Maybe Sabatier knives used this as I can't remember. It was a long time ago.


----------



## M1k3

coxhaus said:


> I thought 2 Lions was a French thing? I the more lions you had means a better knife. Maybe Sabatier knives used this as I can't remember. It was a long time ago.


What about Lions taxidermied in Sweden?


----------



## McMan

M1k3 said:


> What about Lions taxidermied in Sweden?


"Stuffed Lion" is one of the most difficult Sabatier brands to find. They stopped production in the late-1700s. Highly collectible--which is surprising because the craftsmanship was, uh, idiosyncratic.


----------



## cotedupy

These are a couple of WIP shots that might be of interest here...

Another member very generously gave me his Leung Tim Sangdao #2, because using acetone to remove the lacquer had left he 'KU' somewhat blothcy, and the profile and geometry needed touching up. And he knew I liked doing that kind of thing and was a big fan of the knife.

I started by roughly sanding the blade all over, up to 400, then started on forcing a patina. I did it with 3 x 2 hour soaks in a mix of vinegar _and _instant coffee granules, inspired by something @ian said. In between each stint I took the blade out and re-sanded it a bit at 400, before going back in the same vinegar coffee bath. My thinking here was to get a deeper, longer-lasting, final patina. I don't know if it actually makes a difference, but it strikes me like it might.

Unfortunately I didn't take any proper before pics but this is what it looked like after the first 2 hours and subsequent sanding, just before going back in:







After the third dip I was pretty happy with the colour, and then sanded back a part toward the edge at 240. I did it a bit coarser to hopefully leave a bit of 'texture' to the appearance of the finish, as I was going for something suitably rustic-looking, rather than too shiny. It needs a bit of tidying up, but I'm really quite pleased with the effect here - I kinda want to do similar to all my others now. I'll post a pic of the finished knife once I've made the handle, but here it is now:


----------



## JimMaple98

Had a cleaver bonanza arrive this morning 










Takeda NAS “small” Chinese chef knife from Miura Knives, never held a knife this tall before. going to be plenty of testing today







I also got these two cheap stainless ones of eBay, thinner than any of my CCK but I am yet to see how this steel preforms, will be updated. Choil shot is of the bigger one, 240mm x 100


----------



## Jville

JimMaple98 said:


> Had a cleaver bonanza arrive this morning
> View attachment 135550
> View attachment 135551
> View attachment 135552
> 
> Takeda NAS “small” Chinese chef knife from Miura Knives, never held a knife this tall before. going to be plenty of testing today
> View attachment 135553
> View attachment 135554
> 
> I also got these two cheap stainless ones of eBay, thinner than any of my CCK but I am yet to see how this steel preforms, will be updated. Choil shot is of the bigger one, 240mm x 100


Live Takeda cleavers. I got one small Classic and one large NAS. What brand are those other two? They look kind of like ccks.


----------



## JimMaple98

Jville said:


> Live Takeda cleavers. I got one small Classic and one large NAS. What brand are those other two? They look kind of like ccks.


I can see why!
not sure if the listed Brand is correct and I cannot read the stamping, but this is the listing I purchased them from here in Aus Handmade HK Chan Zi Kee Kitchen Small Chopper Cleaver (3 Sizes) (C292) | eBay


----------



## Jville

JimMaple98 said:


> I can see why!
> not sure if the listed Brand is correct and I cannot read the stamping, but this is the listing I purchased them from here in Aus Handmade HK Chan Zi Kee Kitchen Small Chopper Cleaver (3 Sizes) (C292) | eBay


Chan Kee Kitchen = CCK. Are your other CCKs the same model or different models.


----------



## JimMaple98

Jville said:


> Chan Kee Kitchen = CCK. Are your other CCKs the same model or different models.


My CCK knives are a 1903 and a 1102.
These two “Chan Zi Kee” have thinner grinds and they are thinner at the spine but the handles are miserable, the hight doesn’t change much between the models, unlike CCK. For less than $35 USD each they are pretty damn good.

they are certainly not CCK, seem to be contenders though


----------



## JimMaple98

This is the smaller one in comparison to my CCK 1102, cousins but not twins.


----------



## Jville

JimMaple98 said:


> My CCK knives are a 1903 and a 1102.
> These two “Chan Zi Kee” have thinner grinds and they are thinner at the spine but the handles are miserable, the hight doesn’t change much between the models, unlike CCK. For less than $35 USD each they are pretty damn good.
> 
> they are certainly not CCK, seem to be contenders though


Oops, duh, my bad. It’s Chan Chi Kee= CCK, post your thoughts on these Chan Zi Kee, later. Especially for the price, look interesting.


----------



## demcav

It was time to add a "bone crusher" cleaver. Previously, the heaviest cleaver I have is the Forum's Hattori FH-15 from 2008, along with other thinner Chinese-style slicers (Red Rock 52100 custom and CCK all-stainless KF1812).

This newest one is the CCK KF1602 carbon. It weighs in at 866g. Blade is 8.75" x 4". Spine is 8.65mm thick over the heel, 7.8mm mid-way down the spine, and 6.6mm over the tip. Edge profile has a fair amount of belly, and is 2.8mm thick at the heel and mid-way, then slightly tapers to 2.3mm at the tip.

I have yet to use, but hope to put it into action over the weekend.


----------



## demcav

JimMaple98 said:


> Takeda NAS “small” Chinese chef knife from Miura Knives, never held a knife this tall before. going to be plenty of testing today



Please DO give an update after you've had some time with the Takeda! It's a beauty and I'd love to know how that grind works for food release; from the choil picture (!) it appears the grind may assist in releasing despite the thin, tall blade.

Congratulation!


----------



## natto

demcav said:


> This newest one is the CCK KF1602 carbon. ...


Diamond grind at front, medium convex at the heel, I like the look of that grind.


----------



## kpham12

Dropped by my old restaurant and sharpened their house knives, half a dozen cheap stainless no-brand Chinese vegetable cleavers. On my way out the door, my old boss pulls this neglected baby out from under a table and asks if I can fix it.








The chips are actually a bit worse than they look in the picture and the edge is completely rounded and blunt and twisted/deformed everywhere else. I googled it and the knife is a Double Lion brand #1 cleaver and costs like $10, so not really worth fixing, but I eat for free here more often than I’d like to admit so I figured why not give it a shot. 

The work went by surprisingly fast, just under an hour on a 220 stone and a lot of elbow grease:








Finished the edge on a Shapton Glass 500 and left it pretty thick and convex behind the edge because this baby will probably be doing battle with small pork bones/chicken carcasses in the near future.


----------



## Jville

demcav said:


> Please DO give an update after you've had some time with the Takeda! It's a beauty and I'd love to know how that grind works for food release; from the choil picture (!) it appears the grind may assist in releasing despite the thin, tall blade.
> 
> Congratulation!


I have two Takeda cleavers and yes you are right. The food release is “magical.”


----------



## demcav

Jville said:


> Live Takeda cleavers. I got one small Classic and one large NAS.



Besides the difference in overall size between the two, do you find they perform similarly? In the few pictures I've seen it appears that the stainless-clad (NAS) sometimes has more of a rounded belly than the iron-clad "classic" AS. Do you find that to be true in your two examples? Also, what about balance/comfort-in-hand between the two sizes -- do you have a preference?

Thanks -- curious minds want to know!


----------



## kpham12

Danzo said:


> More updates on Suien VC. Stock profile blows. It has an impossible curve to it. And some mega sharp spine and choils. First step was to take care and round those out. Reprofile is done, now I’m flattening the bevels and putting in a asymmetrical edge. Probably got another hour or so of thinning and an hour of refinishing the polish. She ugly now but will be a beauty soonView attachment 103228
> View attachment 103229
> View attachment 103230


Did you ever finish this? Curious how it turned out.


----------



## JASinIL2006

Add my name to the list of cleaver infatuees. I have been playing around with my new CCK1303, and while it still feels a bit awkward in my hand, compared to my J-knives, it is a blast to cut with! I cannot believe how thin this thing is. I keep finding myself looking for excuses to cut onions or carrots or ginger or celery...

Action sales had the best price I could find, but after placing my order, they said the 1303s were out of stock and they had no idea when they would get more, so I bought elsewhere. Considering how inexpensive these are, the performance is really amazing. 

The only problem is that it's a lot harder to surreptitiously add another cleaver to the knife drawer...


----------



## Noodle Soup

kpham12 said:


> Dropped by my old restaurant and sharpened their house knives, half a dozen cheap stainless no-brand Chinese vegetable cleavers. On my way out the door, my old boss pulls this neglected baby out from under a table and asks if I can fix it.
> View attachment 135710
> 
> View attachment 135711
> 
> The chips are actually a bit worse than they look in the picture and the edge is completely rounded and blunt and twisted/deformed everywhere else. I googled it and the knife is a Double Lion brand #1 cleaver and costs like $10, so not really worth fixing, but I eat for free here more often than I’d like to admit so I figured why not give it a shot.
> 
> The work went by surprisingly fast, just under an hour on a 220 stone and a lot of elbow grease:
> View attachment 135712
> 
> View attachment 135713
> 
> Finished the edge on a Shapton Glass 500 and left it pretty thick and convex behind the edge because this baby will probably be doing battle with small pork bones/chicken carcasses in the near future.


The nice thing about these cleavers is the wide blade gives plenty of room for repairs like yours.


----------



## kpham12

Noodle Soup said:


> The nice thing about these cleavers is the wide blade gives plenty of room for repairs like yours.



Yeah, the restaurant has a couple house cleavers that started life as full sized slicers and after years of heavy use, honing and sharpening that would reduce a regular chef’s knife to a little sliver, they are now just entering the nakiri sized phase of their life.


----------



## ashy2classy

Finally joined the club. LaSeur 26c3 220x105. Kinda hurts my wrist. Need to modify the handle?


----------



## dafox

ashy2classy said:


> Finally joined the club. LaSeur 26c3 220x105. Kinda hurts my wrist. Need to modify the handle?
> 
> View attachment 137126


Salsa time!


----------



## Morkandbert

Has anyone tried or have comments on the

Gesshin Stainless 220mm Chinese Cleaver

apologize if I missed it. There are a lot of Gesshin variations/knives


----------



## Knivperson

Did anyone ever try the JNS Tanaka cleaver?


----------



## BillHanna

I think two (definitely one) were on BST.


----------



## Knivperson

Wow they are 650 grams! Lot more than the CCK ive seen


----------



## hmh

Knivperson said:


> Did anyone ever try the JNS Tanaka cleaver?



I bought it minutes after it came out without actually checking the weight because it was the first blue 2 by a well known maker that I saw and liked the kurouchi pattern. I only had a CCK 1902 to compare with and not much experience with cleavers so it might just be me that doesn't know what I have in my hands but I was kind of disappointed. It seems like it's both too thin right behind the edge to use as a heavy cleaver and too thick to use as a slicer. It's also too heavy to be really fun to use for a long period and F&F is not great. I want to keep it but I will probably end up thinning it a lot.


----------



## memorael

Danzo said:


> Hey guys, there's been all sorts of cleaver chats that come and go. Seems like its been a while since we had one. I'm always on the lookout for what the next one may be. I've had much less than some of you, but seems like I gravitate towards these more than anythings else at home. Anybody been rocking something they like these days? Lets try to create a gambit of price and quality here too. Customs western makers as well as Japanese
> 
> 
> Past cleavers
> Sugimoto #6. Workhorse of cleavers, mine clocked in at well over 450 i think. Cut pretty damn great, minimal wedging. Ultimately was too heavy for me. $350
> 
> CCK carbon. thin thin thin. You know the deal. Easy to sharpen and flies through everything. Got bored of it. cheap $45 at the time
> 
> suien VC. Mine had a huge belly, and pretty clunky factory edge, thinned out and it was pretty nice. I will probably get another of these $150
> 
> Current
> CCK stainless metal handle. Saw Fuschia Dunlop had one of these, and I missed my old one. probably the most used knife at home. $60
> 
> JKI stainless white 2. Sweet little thing. Much shorter at the heel than any other cleaver, slightly short at the edge too. Factory edge was junk, thinned out and its great. A very nice compromise and sugimoto replacement. $100
> 
> 
> Trying to build a catalog of what to try next in this category.


I have the tojiro F620 I believe, its the one with the steel handle and I think it's awesome for a true beater and do everything with it during a bbq or just when your lazy kinda cooking, plus it always gets the attention of everyone.


----------



## abeinspace

When using the peace grip, is it normal to use the two fingers gripping the blade to push sticking veggies off the side? Does anyone have a good technique for doing this they recommend?


----------



## kot_blini

I have a question about this cck 1302 I got from action sales recently. I know fit and finish of cck can be “rustic”, but there is over a 5mm difference in height between the front and back of the blade (front is ~95mm, back is ~89mm). It looked odd to me when I opened it up but I guess I didn’t trust my eyes because I’ve already sharpened and used it once before I measured it. It feels weird to use, and I’ve used Chinese cleavers before. This is the sort of thing I hoped to avoid by buying from a known brand rather than a no name one from wok shop.

My question is if this is within the scope of normal for CCK’s quality control or if this counts as a defective product. 

*edited to correct the measurements


----------



## tostadas

kot_blini said:


> I have a question about this cck 1302 I got from action sales recently. I know fit and finish of cck can be “rustic”, but there is over a 5mm difference in height between the front and back of the blade (front is ~95mm, back is ~89mm). It looked odd to me when I opened it up but I guess I didn’t trust my eyes because I’ve already sharpened and used it once before I measured it. It feels weird to use, and I’ve used Chinese cleavers before. This is the sort of thing I hoped to avoid by buying from a known brand rather than a no name one from wok shop.
> 
> My question is if this is within the scope of normal for CCK’s quality control or if this counts as a defective product.
> 
> *edited to correct the measurements
> View attachment 150139
> View attachment 150140
> View attachment 150141


What does the cutting profile look like? Its hard to tell from the angle of your photos the actual shape.


----------



## kot_blini

tostadas said:


> What does the cutting profile look like? Its hard to tell from the angle of your photos the actual shape.


Sorry about that, I hope this one is clearer. I know the lightings not the best but it’s tricky for me to do better than that right now.


----------



## tostadas

kot_blini said:


> Sorry about that, I hope this one is clearer. I know the lightings not the best but it’s tricky for me to do better than that right now.


I guess the question is whether the front is too tall, back is too short, front angle is not square with the spine, or what the main issue is. The front and back measurements only tell one part of the story.


----------



## kot_blini

tostadas said:


> I guess the question is whether the front is too tall, back is too short, front angle is not square with the spine, or what the main issue is. The front and back measurements only tell one part of the story.



The listed height according to action sales is 95mm, so the heel is short according to their description (I know it’s typical for it to vary across the length of the blade, that’s not what i’m worried about). When I look at the knife, this height difference comes from the edge curving inward, not a curve in the spine. The front seems to have a 90 degree angle from the spine to the tip (this is what you are asking, right?), I don’t notice anything off there. 

Thanks for bearing with me, it didn’t occur to me to include that information earlier and I have a lot to learn about knives still. And if this profile is indeed typical for CCK I’d like to know, I just never saw it mentioned anywhere so I figured it wasn’t normal.


----------



## stringer

I haven't specifically had a cck but I have had 30+ similar cleavers. Your specimen looks typical. Very rare to see a completely flat profile on a Chinese cleaver. The shape and size of the belly will vary between specimens and between brands. But I don't see anything wrong with yours.


----------



## Lens Pirate

Basque butchers axe cleaver thingie. I win


----------



## MowgFace

Lens Pirate said:


> Basque Butchers axe cleaver thingy. I win View attachment 150159



How's she do on carrots?


----------



## BillHanna

Lens Pirate said:


> Basque butchers axe cleaver thingie. I win





MowgFace said:


> How's she do on carrots?


How many onions per year?


----------



## Lens Pirate

MowgFace said:


> How's she do on carrots?


Don't know been fraid to try on fibrous veggies.


----------



## Lens Pirate

BillHanna said:


> How many onions per year?


6.5. Covid slowed me
down. Pre-covid I averaged 8-10 onions per year.


----------



## BillHanna

Keep training. You'll get back there.


----------



## tostadas

kot_blini said:


> The listed height according to action sales is 95mm, so the heel is short according to their description (I know it’s typical for it to vary across the length of the blade, that’s not what i’m worried about). When I look at the knife, this height difference comes from the edge curving inward, not a curve in the spine. The front seems to have a 90 degree angle from the spine to the tip (this is what you are asking, right?), I don’t notice anything off there.
> 
> Thanks for bearing with me, it didn’t occur to me to include that information earlier and I have a lot to learn about knives still. And if this profile is indeed typical for CCK I’d like to know, I just never saw it mentioned anywhere so I figured it wasn’t normal.


To echo what @stringer said, I don't see much of a problem. If anything, the curve toward the heel will provide a bit of rockability in your cutting motion. If the profile really bothers you, it's quick work to alter the edge profile a bit on the CCK knives with a coarse/med stone as there's barely any metal to remove due to the thin grind.

For comparison, the grind on my CCK is wonky, the blade is wavy, and the thickness is all over the place. But I still love it. It cuts perfectly fine, and I have no hesitation abusing it because lets face it, it's not like I'm going to mess it up further.


----------



## spaceconvoy

kot_blini said:


> I have a question about this cck 1302 I got from action sales recently. I know fit and finish of cck can be “rustic”, but there is over a 5mm difference in height between the front and back of the blade (front is ~95mm, back is ~89mm). It looked odd to me when I opened it up but I guess I didn’t trust my eyes because I’ve already sharpened and used it once before I measured it. It feels weird to use, and I’ve used Chinese cleavers before. This is the sort of thing I hoped to avoid by buying from a known brand rather than a no name one from wok shop.
> 
> My question is if this is within the scope of normal for CCK’s quality control or if this counts as a defective product.
> 
> *edited to correct the measurements
> View attachment 150139
> View attachment 150140
> View attachment 150141


I got a nearly identical 1303 from Action Sales last year. I don't think it's an acceptable amount of variation, and it feels very off to me. For the heel make board contact, the handle has to be dipped low, twisting your wrist uncomfortably.

The 1912 stainless version I bought from CKTG is perfectly even heel to tip, and feels right. My guess is their higher cost is the result of discarding the duds from each batch and pricing in the loss. But my sample size is 1, and I'm just speculating.


----------



## kot_blini

Thanks for weighing in @tostadas, @stringer, and @spaceconvoy. I wouldn't expect or even want a perfectly flat cleaver, and if it were shorter at the front instead I doubt I would have posted about it (as you say, helpful for rock chopping).



tostadas said:


> But I still love it. It cuts perfectly fine, and I have no hesitation abusing it because lets face it, it's not like I'm going to mess it up further.


This is indeed true. In fact I bought the CCK in part to practice sharpening, so maybe it's what the doctor ordered after all. I will spend some more time with it and decide whether to attempt to shorten the front. 



spaceconvoy said:


> The 1912 stainless version I bought from CKTG is perfectly even heel to tip, and feels right. My guess is their higher cost is the result of discarding the duds from each batch and pricing in the loss. But my sample size is 1, and I'm just speculating.


Interesting, I will keep this in mind if I'm buying another CCK.


----------



## chefwp

I have a couple cleaver questions. I have a 9" CCK cleaver and I was getting used to smashing garlic in a similar manner to the video below. I occurred to me that this might end catastrophicly for the cleaver if I snap the blade right off the handle. I don't know how they are constructed, are they welded to the handle? Is doing this with the cleaver I have inadvisable or is it ok?


----------



## Rangen

chefwp said:


> I have a couple cleaver questions. I have a 9" CCK cleaver and I was getting used to smashing garlic in a similar manner to the video below. I occurred to me that this might end catastrophicly for the cleaver if I snap the blade right off the handle. I don't know how they are constructed, are they welded to the handle? Is doing this with the cleaver I have inadvisable or is it ok?




Any Chinese cleaver that could not smash garlic like that should be rendered down to its fundamental atoms, which can be used for another purpose, since they would have clearly failed at that one.

Seriously, what's depicted is utterly routine business for a Chinese cleaver.


----------



## Rangen

It is strange to me that we talk mostly about CCK and the like on the cleaver thread, when there are Japanese-made Chinese cleavers out there that are comparable to the knives that are discussed elsewhere.


----------



## chefwp

Rangen said:


> It is strange to me that we talk mostly about CCK and the like on the cleaver thread, when there are Japanese-made Chinese cleavers out there that are comparable to the knives that are discussed elsewhere.


Indeed, I was checking those out! I did choose CCK as a good and affordable place to start to see if I appreciate the form. I do, so who knows, there might be an upgrade in my future. Are there any in particular that you would recommend?


----------



## Rangen

chefwp said:


> Indeed, I was checking those out! I did choose CCK as a good and affordable place to start to see if I appreciate the form. I do, so who knows, there might be an upgrade in my future. Are there any in particular that you would recommend?



Sure. Sugimoto is awesome. Watanabe/Toyama, even more so. And TF, well, the cleavers are as great as the knives, which cuts both ways for those who are not fans. Those three cover all of my favorite cleavers, if you don't count a gorgeous 680g Damascus R2 Saji cleaver that I succumbed to for bling, but have found really useful when I need that kind of weight.

My bias is toward cleavers that are mostly flat along the edge, so they can cut right down to the board along most of their length. Those cleavers you see with really curved edges make no sense to me at all.


----------



## spaceconvoy

I have both and Sugimoto is nothing like a CCK slicer. In general, Japanese cleavers are much thicker and have more belly. Or they have awful full tang handles that completely ruin the balance. For whatever reason every Japanese maker (that I know of) is missing one or more crucial element that makes the CCK slicer so magical. I'd much rather live with the mediocre steel and sharpen it twice as often than compromise on geometry and balance, especially for five times the price.


----------



## BillHanna

I’m getting Spåre to make me one next year. It would’ve been this year but, “life” said “nah dawg.”


----------



## Jville

spaceconvoy said:


> I have both and Sugimoto is nothing like a CCK slicer. In general, Japanese cleavers are much thicker and have more belly. Or they have awful full tang handles that completely ruin the balance. For whatever reason every Japanese maker (that I know of) is missing one or more crucial element that makes the CCK slicer so magical. I'd much rather live with the mediocre steel and sharpen it twice as often than compromise on geometry and balance, especially for five times the price.


Both of my Fujiyama cleavers are quite flat. My white #2 is even thinner BTE then my full CCK carbon. And eventhough my Takeda cleavers have sone curve I’m a huge fan. I use the small Takeda classic one a lot. One of my favorite knives. I have honestly really not used my large CCK. It’s just been kind of chilling in the drawer, but it is kind of newer, I guess. Just haven’t gotten around to using it much. I have a small stainless CCK one that I’ve owned much longer and it’s seen a lot more use. CCKs are great, but there are some really nice Chukas out there imho.


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## spaceconvoy

A visual demonstration of why this is a bad thing. And my cleaver only has a 3mm difference between tip and heel, half as much as @kot_blini's


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## chefwp

Rangen said:


> Any Chinese cleaver that could not smash garlic like that should be rendered down to its fundamental atoms, which can be used for another purpose, since they would have clearly failed at that one.
> 
> Seriously, what's depicted is utterly routine business for a Chinese cleaver.


btw, this was the answer I was hoping for. I used to nostalgically reach for my ancient Wusthof to rock chop with impunity whenever I needed to mince a **** ton (metric) of garlic, but the new(ish) cleaver has fully taken over as my tool of choice for doing that.


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## stringer

spaceconvoy said:


> View attachment 150319
> 
> A visual demonstration of why this is a bad thing. And my cleaver only has a 3mm difference between tip and heel, half as much as @kot_blini's



The profile might not be ideal for your technique or whatever. But I doubt that the manufacturer or retailer would consider that cleaver defective based on a "short heel". I doubt that there tolerances are that tight. If OP is unhappy then they should see if the retailer would swap it for a different one. It's just not something I would consider a true defect.


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## spaceconvoy

stringer said:


> The profile might not be ideal for your technique or whatever. But I doubt that the manufacturer or retailer would consider that cleaver defective based on a "short heel". I doubt that there tolerances are that tight. If OP is unhappy then they should see if the retailer would swap it for a different one. It's just not something I would consider a true defect.


That's like finding eight pellets of rat feces in a 2lb bag of flour and saying it's not a real problem because it falls within FDA guidelines. I'm sure the manufacturer doesn't consider this to be a defect, which is why they're being sold. I have no interest in the technical definition, but rather what should be acceptable or unacceptable to me as a user.


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## stringer

spaceconvoy said:


> That's like finding eight pellets of rat feces in a 2lb bag of flour and saying it's not a real problem because it falls within FDA guidelines. I'm sure the manufacturer doesn't consider this to be a defect, which is why they're being sold. I have no interest in the technical definition, but rather what should be acceptable or unacceptable to me as a user.



I think your analogy is quite the stretch. Whether or not a knife suits you personally is not the same thing as a manufacturing defect. If the OP doesn't like the knife then they should try and return it or buy something else. But I wouldn't advise them to buy another CCK blind and expect any different outcome which seems to be partially what they were asking.


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## tgfencer

I flattened out the edge profile of a colleague's cleaver for him on a 120 SG. Took less than an hour or so. For sub-$150 cleavers, I would expect to have to do some adjustments to get something to my preference.


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## tostadas

I usually dont use the very heel of the blade, so having a slight relieve curve at that location helps for me. I think as long as the portions of the edge that you actually use (tip, mid, etc) are adequate, I wouldnt stress much.


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## kot_blini

stringer said:


> I think your analogy is quite the stretch. Whether or not a knife suits you personally is not the same thing as a manufacturing defect. If the OP doesn't like the knife then they should try and return it or buy something else. But I wouldn't advise them to buy another CCK blind and expect any different outcome which seems to be partially what they were asking.



Yes, this is pretty much what I was asking. Partially for the benefit of people in a similar position as I was, seeking out info on what they’d expect from a CCK 1302, but also to see whether I should contact Action Sales (maybe worth a try, but they sold the product they meant to sell). I’m a pretty green sharpener (I've just been practicing edges with a King 1200 I bought a couple weeks ago) so having a relatively standard profile to build off of is likely more of a boon to me than most others here.

While there’s disagreement on whether it should be acceptable, the consensus is that it isn’t unusual. People can come to their own conclusions about how much it matters to them, maybe it will even suit them! But they should be prepared to do more than mess with the fit and finish and put on a basic fresh edge. 

For my use case, if I’d been aware of this beforehand I would have saved some cash and picked up a dexter russell with the understanding that I'd need to thin it. Or something from the wok shop if I wanted it to be taller, with the understanding I’d likely have more inconsistency in the blade. But I wouldn't have paid extra for a CCK in hopes of a flatter/more consistent blade. As things stand, I think the high heel will continue to feel awkward for me so I'll need to raise the front edge. I’ll probably be fine, I just bit off a little more than I anticipated 

At the very least, my mistaken assumptions have been cleared up. So thank you everyone!


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## hmh

I bought my CCK 1302 at the CCK shop in Toronto a few months ago. Mine has the same curve at the heel. The 3 or 4 other 1302s I handled at the shop all had the high heel too. Could it be done on purpose or definitely botched grinding?


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## stringer

hmh said:


> I bought my CCK 1302 at the CCK shop in Toronto a few months ago. Mine has the same curve at the heel. The 3 or 4 other 1302s I handled at the shop all had the high heel too. Could it be done on purpose or definitely botched grinding?



I don't think it's botched. I haven't had a CCK that I know of. But I've bought a lot of Chinese cleavers on eBay, in various Chinatowns, and at Flea markets. There's a lot of variability in the profiles. The OPs is definitely in the tolerances of what I would call "normal" for a Chinese cleaver. I only have one example right now because I usually just clean them up a little and then gift them to people. And of course the one example I have now is the opposite with a skinny toe and fat heel. My nakiri has a high heel though. And I have no problems rock chopping with it. Sometimes if chopping is making my wrist hurt I find that I can adjust the height of the cutting board to relieve the pain.


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## dyungim

GorillaGrunt said:


> Daovua: 200x95mm, 330g
> CCK: 210x86mm, 253g
> as seen here I was wrong: the CCK is way thinner. But the DV cuts like it is. I tried to get a sense of the geometry with a reference straight and it seems to be asymmetrically convex. Also it seems lighter than it is; maybe the weird shaped handle gives it better balance? The stainless Yang Jiang is only 30g heavier but feels like much more.



How heavy is the Yang Jiang? And you are talking about this one, correct?: “Yang Jiang” Cleaver | The Wok Shop


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## GorillaGrunt

I think that’s the one yes, 366g


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## kpham12

spaceconvoy said:


> I've had the Sugimoto standard #6 and stainless 4030, wanted to like them for their steels but never loved them. Can't stand the belly, and too blade heavy for my taste. Currently happy with my stainless CCK 1912. The thinness and balance are perfect, and I love the handle, surprisingly.
> 
> Still halfheartedly on the lookout for a fancy custom thin slicer. Watanabe has a really nice looking one in the Specials section of his site. Problem is most makers slap two slabs of wood on a full tang handle, but the balance never feels right to me.
> 
> Finding the King Neo 800 has made me more content to settle with the CCK. No longer a pain to sharpen, and has the perfect amount of tooth for its mediocre stainless. Sometimes you just need the right stone for a particular steel. Easier than wishing for a knife that doesn't exist.



Do you still have the stainless Sugimoto? Can you tell me how the the Sugimoto cm4030 stainless holds up in terms of edge retention? The steel is just described as “chromium molybdenum” and I was wondering if it’s similar to entry level Japanese stainless like a Mac or Misono or if it’s a bit harder? I have a couple VG-10 cleavers with good retention, but I’ve been meaning to try a different stainless.


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## spaceconvoy

kpham12 said:


> Do you still have the stainless Sugimoto? Can you tell me how the the Sugimoto cm4030 stainless holds up in terms of edge retention? The steel is just described as “chromium molybdenum” and I was wondering if it’s similar to entry level Japanese stainless like a Mac or Misono or if it’s a bit harder? I have a couple VG-10 cleavers with good retention, but I’ve been meaning to try a different stainless.


I couldn't tell you. I haven't used it enough to comment on edge retention, and don't really intend to. I can say it seems to sharpen more easily than my Misono moly, for what it's worth.


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## blokey

I think there is a misunderstanding about cleavers here, the difference between most Japanese made cleaver and Chinese made cleaver is not their thickness or their belly, it lies in their grind. The CCK 1302/1303 and KF1912 that's popular among a lot of people is a style of cleaver called Sang Dao/桑刀, it is mostly used in Cantonese cuisine but gained popularity nation wide. The characters of Sang Daos are their thin grind and narrower rectangular shape with a flatter edge than most. Since the early Chinese immigrants to west has been overwhelmingly Cantonese and Honkongese, they bring their cuisine and their knives, it become the standard Chinese cleaver, the Dexter cleaver thats popular in North Americas is based on the Cantonese Shape.

In contrast, while there are Cantonese immigrants to Japan, Chinese cuisine regained popularity in Japan after WW 2 after many Japanese soldiers and settlers returned from Northern China, brought with them things like Gyoza. One of the people who reshaped Chuka Ryori (Japanese Chinese cuisine) is Chen kenmin and his son Chen Kenichi, both of them specialized in Sichuanese cuisine and use Sichuanese style cleaver subsequently. 

Now back to the Japanese made cleavers, most of them are modeled after a more workhorse styled knife called Pian Dao/片刀, which is used in most regional Chinese cuisine, some have more belly some does not, some has rounded head or heel depends on the region. The popularity of Northern and Sichuanese Chinese cuisine made Pian Dao much more popular in professional kitchen, most of Japanese produced Chinese cleavers are made in this style. The main difference is that high end Japanese cleavers will usually have a convex grind at the edge like Sugimoto and Ginga, whereas traditional Chinese Cleavers will have a full V flat grind.

There is also a cleaver that's more ubitiqous in China, Zhan Qie Dao /斩切刀 or Wen Wu Dao/文武刀, those are truly all purpose cleaver with different angle at front and the back for veggies and small bones. However like most things all purpose they excel at neither. 

Here's some pictures
Typical Sang Dao




A sub variation of Sang Dao that's specialized for slicing beef





Sichuanese Pian Dao by Deng Jia with some belly




A Beijinese Zhan Qie Dao by Wang Ma Zi




A Shanghaiese Pian Dao with rounded head




Traditional Chinese grind


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## blokey

BTW here's some of my cleavers, the Misono and Dengjia might be up for sale soon


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## tostadas

It's been about 2 weeks using this Tanaka cleaver in blue#1, and it looks like it's going to be putting some of my favorite gyutos out of a home soon.


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## Rangen

When you have excellent Chinese cleavers, gyutos are only for pure slicing, when the help that weight brings is not important.


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## btbyrd

Can someone who knows Chinese contact CCK and tell them to take that f**king QR code off their blade and to go back to the old stamps?


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## tostadas

btbyrd said:


> Can someone who knows Chinese contact CCK and tell them to take that f**king QR code off their blade and to go back to the old stamps?


Is it screened on? How difficult would it be to sand off?


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## btbyrd

Looks like it's pretty difficult to remove and that you'll have to **** up the KU to get it off of there.


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## Rangen

btbyrd said:


> Looks like it's pretty difficult to remove and that you'll have to **** up the KU to get it off of there.



Yeah, this is just how I feel about cars with a screen in the dashboard. I don't think sanding those off works either.


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## blokey

btbyrd said:


> Can someone who knows Chinese contact CCK and tell them to take that f**king QR code off their blade and to go back to the old stamps?


I doubt they would care anyway, they are always more of a restraunt supply store than dedicated workshop.


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## M1k3

btbyrd said:


> Looks like it's pretty difficult to remove and that you'll have to **** up the KU to get it off of there.


Use a sharpie?


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## Jville

tostadas said:


> It's been about 2 weeks using this Tanaka cleaver in blue#1, and it looks like it's going to be putting some of my favorite gyutos out of a home soon.
> View attachment 163558





Rangen said:


> When you have excellent Chinese cleavers, gyutos are only for pure slicing, when the help that weight brings is not important.


This is where I’m at. I find myself just feeling like I have almost no use for gyutos. But the “problem” is I have some nice gyutos and they are somewhat of a distraction. I am way more drawn to using cleavers like almost exclusively. I have already sold a lot of my gyutos, but I have the urge to basically sell them all but say maybe 2 or 3. For example, I recently got the Kamon massdrop and I got a small used sugimoto carbon cleaver after that. I’ve used the sugimoto more and have barely touched the Kamon. The Kamon would be one that I would keep if I were to just keep a couple, but I’m just saying I find that now I have a cleaver for pretty much anything and just want to use cleavers. It was a process for me it didn’t happen overnight and I still use gyutos quite a bit, but I’ve definitely found that I just prefer cleavers.


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## M1k3

Jville said:


> This is where I’m at. I find myself just feeling like I have almost no use for gyutos. But the “problem” is I have some nice gyutos and they are somewhat of a distraction. I am way more drawn to using cleavers like almost exclusively. I have already sold a lot of my gyutos, but I have the urge to basically sell them all but say maybe 2 or 3. For example, I recently got the Kamon massdrop and I got a small used sugimoto carbon cleaver after that. I’ve used the sugimoto more and have barely touched the Kamon. The Kamon would be one that I would keep if I were to just keep a couple, but I’m just saying I find that now I have a cleaver for pretty much anything and just want to use cleavers. It was a process for me it didn’t happen overnight and I still use gyutos quite a bit, but I’ve definitely found that I just prefer cleavers.


BLASPHEMOUS!!


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## kpham12

tostadas said:


> It's been about 2 weeks using this Tanaka cleaver in blue#1, and it looks like it's going to be putting some of my favorite gyutos out of a home soon.
> View attachment 163558


What are the dimensions/weight on this thing? Looks crazy nice!


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## tostadas

kpham12 said:


> What are the dimensions/weight on this thing? Looks crazy nice!


215 x 93mm, 420g
3.3mm spine out of the handle and tapering
Here's the photo before any patina


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## stringer

Jville said:


> This is where I’m at. I find myself just feeling like I have almost no use for gyutos. But the “problem” is I have some nice gyutos and they are somewhat of a distraction. I am way more drawn to using cleavers like almost exclusively. I have already sold a lot of my gyutos, but I have the urge to basically sell them all but say maybe 2 or 3. For example, I recently got the Kamon massdrop and I got a small used sugimoto carbon cleaver after that. I’ve used the sugimoto more and have barely touched the Kamon. The Kamon would be one that I would keep if I were to just keep a couple, but I’m just saying I find that now I have a cleaver for pretty much anything and just want to use cleavers. It was a process for me it didn’t happen overnight and I still use gyutos quite a bit, but I’ve definitely found that I just prefer cleavers.



I bought about 20 eBay/flea market cleavers in the 5 years BC (before COVID). I fixed them up and gave them away as gifts. I hadn't bought any since then. But a few months ago I saw one at an antique store. And then the other day I pulled the trigger on an eBay one. Here we go again!


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## QCDawg

I have a CCK 1302 (carbon, ku) so dang thin. Love it. Edge retention sucks, but it’s so thin it keeps on plowing veg anyway. Sharpens up really fast. Kinda weird stinky cheap steel. But man, it gets grabbed more than my dozen nice gyutos now. Doesn't slice worth a damn, so the suji still reign supreme in that dept. Also picked up a 1202 carbon. Totally different animal. Thick thick spine.. heftier edge. I whack poultry and ribs and such with it. So… they will never replace my gyutos.. but my Mazaki nakri, Munetoshi butcher and garasuki see a lot less board time . Kick my self for not getting a cleaver earlier. Sure like spending $60-$90 for them. Can’t see the reason to upgrade to spendy Japanese ones, but to each their own.


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## kpham12

tostadas said:


> 215 x 93mm, 420g
> 3.3mm spine out of the handle and tapering
> Here's the photo before any patina
> View attachment 163571


Very nice sweet spot weight wise. 420 grams for me is very maneuverable while still giving you that cleaver weight and authority to fall through food.


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## Jville

QCDawg said:


> I have a CCK 1302 (carbon, ku) so dang thin. Love it. Edge retention sucks, but it’s so thin it keeps on plowing veg anyway. Sharpens up really fast. Kinda weird stinky cheap steel. But man, it gets grabbed more than my dozen nice gyutos now. Doesn't slice worth a damn, so the suji still reign supreme in that dept. Also picked up a 1202 carbon. Totally different animal. Thick thick spine.. heftier edge. I whack poultry and ribs and such with it. So… they will never replace my gyutos.. but my Mazaki nakri, Munetoshi butcher and garasuki see a lot less board time . Kick my self for not getting a cleaver earlier. Sure like spending $60-$90 for them. Can’t see the reason to upgrade to spendy Japanese ones, but to each their own.


You have already stated reasons. Poor edge retention, that kinda weird cheap stinky steel. I mean it’s really not that different than gyutos in the sense that all you need is a decent sub $100 knife to really do it all. I have two ccks and I rarely grab them. It’s not that they aren’t great. I just have cleavers that I like more. Think about this: there are cleavers out there that are thin and light just like your cck that have better steel in just about every way, better fit and finish, and way sexier to look at.


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## daddy yo yo

Jville said:


> there are cleavers out there that are thin and light just like your cck that have better steel in just about every way, better fit and finish, and way sexier to look at.


And these are?


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## Jville

daddy yo yo said:


> And these are?


One example is Takeda. My large Takeda that basically is the same length(tiny bit longer) and same height as my large CCK slicer is only .1 ounces heavier, near identical weight. And it has all the characteristics that I mention with elite food release. My Fujiyama #6 is only 3 ounces heavier but it is also a Western. Admittedly 3 ounces is enough to put it in a different weight class but it is much less noticeable with a cleaver. When you compare the blades. The Fujiyama actually gets thinner bte and the grind is quite high thin throughout. Now granted the Fuji is a little less comparable and not quite what I was referring to. But if you look at a lot of Western makers they are cleavers being made with those same CCK spec characteristics like La Suer for example. I am in-line for a custom(not from Lasuer) that will be based on CCK spec characteristics. It’s going to be a little bit, but I’ll try to post it on here when I get it. Also a little extra weight is not necessarily a bad thing, can be good, but of course now you get into preferences and I won’t attempt to argue that.


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## daddy yo yo

Jville said:


> One example is Takeda. My large Takeda that basically is the same length(tiny bit longer) and same height as my large CCK slicer is only .1 ounces heavier, near identical weight. And it has all the characteristics that I mention with elite food release. My Fujiyama #6 is only 3 ounces heavier but it is also a Western. Admittedly 3 ounces is enough to put it in a different weight class but it is much less noticeable with a cleaver. When you compare the blades. The Fujiyama actually gets thinner bte and the grind is quite high thin throughout. Now granted the Fuji is a little less comparable and not quite what I was referring to. But if you look at a lot of Western makers they are cleavers being made with those same CCK spec characteristics like La Suer for example. I am in-line for a custom(not from Lasuer) that will be based on CCK spec characteristics. It’s going to be a little bit, but I’ll try to post it on here when I get it. Also a little extra weight is not necessarily a bad thing, can be good, but of course now you get into preferences and I won’t attempt to argue that.


I see. I believe the reason why CCK is so popular is its price/performance ratio. For someone who knows nothing about cleavers, it doesn’t hurt that much to spend 60$ and find out if a cleaver is your thing. If it isn’t, you can easily sell at little loss. Takeda or LaSeur are 600+, so one should already know his preferences!


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## Jville

daddy yo yo said:


> I see. I believe the reason why CCK is so popular is its price/performance ratio. For someone who knows nothing about cleavers, it doesn’t hurt that much to spend 60$ and find out if a cleaver is your thing. If it isn’t, you can easily sell at little loss. Takeda or LaSeur are 600+, so one should already know his preferences!


We’ll of course you are correct in that matter. I wouldn’t attempt to argue the utility, practicality and even enjoyment of use of a CCK when it comes to price. I mean these are very inexpensive when you compare them to higher end gyutos and cleavers. And they really are all one “needs.” But if you find that your CCK is the knive that perhaps you crave or sort of love the most to grab, it could possible open the door to inquire could it be even better? I mean that’s really how it begins with gyutos is it not? I mean some people from the get go just go all out and buy all kinds of expensive gyutos right out of the gate. But then there are others like me, who started off sub $100 gyuto use it and use it for say a year, while learning to sharpen, then buy something a little “better” and continuing enroute… until one day where the flood gates open, whenever that may be for an individual and you just want more and more. So perhaps it might be better for one to not attempt to look past their CCK and live contently, satisfied.


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## Jville

Here is the patina on the Migoto #6 blue 1. It took a pretty nice patina for just doing onions.


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## tostadas

daddy yo yo said:


> I see. I believe the reason why CCK is so popular is its price/performance ratio. For someone who knows nothing about cleavers, it doesn’t hurt that much to spend 60$ and find out if a cleaver is your thing. If it isn’t, you can easily sell at little loss. Takeda or LaSeur are 600+, so one should already know his preferences!





Jville said:


> We’ll of course you are correct in that matter. I wouldn’t attempt to argue the utility, practicality and even enjoyment of use of a CCK when it comes to price. I mean these are very inexpensive when you compare them to higher end gyutos and cleavers. And they really are all one “needs.” But if you find that your CCK is the knive that perhaps you crave or sort of love the most to grab, it could possible open the door to inquire could it be even better? I mean that’s really how it begins with gyutos is it not? I mean some people from the get go just go all out and buy all kinds of expensive gyutos right out of the gate. But then there are others like me, who started off sub $100 gyuto use it and use it for say a year, while learning to sharpen, then buy something a little “better” and continuing enroute… until one day where the flood gates open, whenever that may be for an individual and you just want more and more. So perhaps it might be better for one to not attempt to look past their CCK and live contently, satisfied.


I agree 100% that the CCK cleavers cannot be beat in terms of value at their price points. And the incremental gain from spending 10x more on a cleaver is not proportional to the price jump. However, for someone that really enjoys their CCK and is willing to pay the premium, there are improvements in the quality of steel and also the overall F&F.

Another thing that contributes to the cost is you have to consider the production method for each. CCK is set up for mass production of cleavers, while typical Japanese smiths (or other custom makers) are not. So you also have to consider both economy of scale, and also any modification in production method for the Japanese makers to go from a gyuto to a much larger cleaver. One thing for example would be the size of a typical billet used in a gyuto may not be big enough for a cleaver, so 2 may need to be welded together. Also, grinding a cleaver from a stamped flat sheet of spring steel (CCK) doesnt require the amount of time as grinding one from a thicker forged piece. Also consider the cost of labor from the respective places of manufacture. These all contribute to the cost differential, and can help explain the disparity in price/performance.


----------



## QCDawg

Jville said:


> We’ll of course you are correct in that matter. I wouldn’t attempt to argue the utility, practicality and even enjoyment of use of a CCK when it comes to price. I mean these are very inexpensive when you compare them to higher end gyutos and cleavers. And they really are all one “needs.” But if you find that your CCK is the knive that perhaps you crave or sort of love the most to grab, it could possible open the door to inquire could it be even better? I mean that’s really how it begins with gyutos is it not? I mean some people from the get go just go all out and buy all kinds of expensive gyutos right out of the gate. But then there are others like me, who started off sub $100 gyuto use it and use it for say a year, while learning to sharpen, then buy something a little “better” and continuing enroute… until one day where the flood gates open, whenever that may be for an individual and you just want more and more. So perhaps it might be better for one to not attempt to look past their CCK and live contently, satisfied.


I’m sure it’s a phase for me. I’ll be back to my gyutos shortly. I have too much invested to leave them out of the game. I was just surprised how fun the CCK has been. Matter of fact, my Mazaki nashiji Nakiri just told me how passed he was about this “cleaver phase”


----------



## M1k3

QCDawg said:


> I’m sure it’s a phase for me. I’ll be back to my gyutos shortly. I have too much invested to leave them out of the game. I was just surprised how fun the CCK has been. Matter of fact, my Mazaki nashiji Nakiri just told me how passed he was about this “cleaver phase”


"All rectangles matter!" - @QCDawg's Mazaki Nakiri probably


----------



## blokey

tostadas said:


> I agree 100% that the CCK cleavers cannot be beat in terms of value at their price points. And the incremental gain from spending 10x more on a cleaver is not proportional to the price jump. However, for someone that really enjoys their CCK and is willing to pay the premium, there are improvements in the quality of steel and also the overall F&F.
> 
> Another thing that contributes to the cost is you have to consider the production method for each. CCK is set up for mass production of cleavers, while typical Japanese smiths (or other custom makers) are not. So you also have to consider both economy of scale, and also any modification in production method for the Japanese makers to go from a gyuto to a much larger cleaver. One thing for example would be the size of a typical billet used in a gyuto may not be big enough for a cleaver, so 2 may need to be welded together. Also, grinding a cleaver from a stamped flat sheet of spring steel (CCK) doesnt require the amount of time as grinding one from a thicker forged piece. Also consider the cost of labor from the respective places of manufacture. These all contribute to the cost differential, and can help explain the disparity in price/performance.


I'm actually on the look for a premium CCK Sang Dao, which is pretty hard so far. Most Japanese made ones are modeled more after northern models, they are really nice and I love my Ginga cleaver, but it is just different. The closest thing I saw is actually one of the 210mm Ginga large Nakiri. I've also commissioned a small cleaver from Fredrik Spåre, probably gonna arrive in 6 month, base on the grind I saw on his instagram it will be pretty nice. One of other people I saw does thin cleavers is Pig Iron Forge, his thin cleaver grind looks on point, but come with a hefty price. 

I also got couple Sang Dao styled knife from Chinese manufactuerers on Taobao, one of the best so far is by Xi Gongzi in stainless claded 9Cr18MoV steel, but still thicker behind the edge and at the spine than CCK. Others usually just have worse grind or worse steel. I'm still trying to find some of good individual balck smiths willing to do the style, but they are really elusive so far, only sell to old customers on WeChat. One of the most famous one, Xin Guo, did do a Japanese styled cleaver in M390 for equivlent of $600 might try that out when I have the chance.


----------



## kpham12

I watched this great video a while ago and forgot to bookmark it and it took ages to find again. I believe it’s of an owner of a Chinese restaurant in Japan and he’s sharpening his cleaver how a lot of Chinese chefs sharpen theirs. Judging from his finger placement, the scratch pattern on the cleaver and how high the mud from the stone is on the cleaver, he’s thinning and convexing the area behind the edge as he sharpens, kind of similar to how @stringer sharpens if I’m not mistaken. This is how my old boss sharpened his cleavers except Chinese chefs are usually using a cheap, low grit SiC oilstone while the guy in the video is using a King 1000 and a Shapton Pro 2000. He also strops/deburrs on a denim apron and appears to finish by spraying his carbon cleaver with food safe silicone spray, likely so he doesn’t have to wipe it down as often. Just a lot of cool little tricks. If anyone can do some translating though, I would appreciate it because I may be completely wrong about his sharpening technique .


----------



## tostadas

kpham12 said:


> I watched this great video a while ago and forgot to bookmark it and it took ages to find again. I believe it’s of an owner of a Chinese restaurant in Japan and he’s sharpening his cleaver how a lot of Chinese chefs sharpen theirs. Judging from his finger placement, the scratch pattern on the cleaver and how high the mud from the stone is on the cleaver, he’s thinning and convexing the area behind the edge as he sharpens, kind of similar to how @stringer sharpens if I’m not mistaken. This is how my old boss sharpened his cleavers except Chinese chefs are usually using a cheap, low grit SiC oilstone while the guy in the video is using a King 1000 and a Shapton Pro 2000. He also strops/deburrs on a denim apron and appears to finish by spraying his carbon cleaver with food safe silicone spray, likely so he doesn’t have to wipe it down as often. Just a lot of cool little tricks. If anyone can do some translating though, I would appreciate it because I may be completely wrong about his sharpening technique .



That cleaver looks fun


----------



## kpham12

tostadas said:


> That cleaver looks fun


Agreed. And he’s wielding it like it weighs nothing. I gotta work on my technique.


----------



## Rangen

kpham12 said:


> I watched this great video a while ago and forgot to bookmark it and it took ages to find again. I believe it’s of an owner of a Chinese restaurant in Japan and he’s sharpening his cleaver how a lot of Chinese chefs sharpen theirs. Judging from his finger placement, the scratch pattern on the cleaver and how high the mud from the stone is on the cleaver, he’s thinning and convexing the area behind the edge as he sharpens, kind of similar to how @stringer sharpens if I’m not mistaken. This is how my old boss sharpened his cleavers except Chinese chefs are usually using a cheap, low grit SiC oilstone while the guy in the video is using a King 1000 and a Shapton Pro 2000. He also strops/deburrs on a denim apron and appears to finish by spraying his carbon cleaver with food safe silicone spray, likely so he doesn’t have to wipe it down as often. Just a lot of cool little tricks. If anyone can do some translating though, I would appreciate it because I may be completely wrong about his sharpening technique .




What King 1000 is that? In my day, King 1000 stones came in any color you wanted, as long as it was a brownish burnt orange. That one is in burnt umber.


----------



## Rangen

I think I will be watching this video many times, over more than one year. After all the discussion of CCK vs. Japanese cleaver styles here, I have to note that the profile of the cleaver being sharpened here aligns well with most of my Japanese cleavers, not excluding the Denka.


----------



## kpham12

Rangen said:


> What King 1000 is that? In my day, King 1000 stones came in any color you wanted, as long as it was a brownish burnt orange. That one is in burnt umber.



Maybe the King Deluxe 1000? Similar color/dimensions.









King #1000 Deluxe Knife Sharpening Stone


Shop Japanese knives, knife sharpening stones, Japanese tableware, kitchenware, restaurant supplies and equipments, take out containers, sushi and ramen supplies




mtckitchen.com


----------



## Rangen

kpham12 said:


> Maybe the King Deluxe 1000? Similar color/dimensions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> King #1000 Deluxe Knife Sharpening Stone
> 
> 
> Shop Japanese knives, knife sharpening stones, Japanese tableware, kitchenware, restaurant supplies and equipments, take out containers, sushi and ramen supplies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mtckitchen.com



Yep, looks right. Anyone want to preach about the differences between that and the brown-orange version?


----------



## spaceconvoy

I thought I heard him say 'Hyper'


----------



## kpham12

spaceconvoy said:


> I thought I heard him say 'Hyper'


You’re right, looks more like the Hyper from when he picks it up.









King Hyper #1000 Knife Sharpening Stone


Shop Japanese knives, knife sharpening stones, Japanese tableware, kitchenware, restaurant supplies and equipments, take out containers, sushi and ramen supplies




mtckitchen.com


----------



## gaijin

kpham12 said:


> You’re right, looks more like the Hyper from when he picks it up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> King Hyper #1000 Knife Sharpening Stone
> 
> 
> Shop Japanese knives, knife sharpening stones, Japanese tableware, kitchenware, restaurant supplies and equipments, take out containers, sushi and ramen supplies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mtckitchen.com



Isn't there even two versions of the Hyper, standard and soft, that looks almost the same? 






Japanese water stones: King and Sun Tiger


King-Stones are relatively soft and have a comfortable feel in use, because one can see and feel the stone cutting the surface. The 240-grit grinding stone from Sun Tiger cuts very quickly and is useful for grinding out chips and nicks in the blades of chisels and knives.



www.fine-tools.com


----------



## blokey

Just come across this Shibazi all purpose cleaver/ Zhan Qie Dao in Asian super market, now this is some belly


----------



## Rangen

blokey said:


> Just come across this Shibazi all purpose cleaver/ Zhan Qie Dao in Asian super market, now this is some belly



Better grab it. How often do you come across Triple Stainless steel?

There are razors shaped like that. Honing them is hopeless until you master the rolling X-stroke. Didn't think I'd need that for a cleaver, though.


----------



## Noodle Soup

There seem to be a few hundred million Chinese cooks that do like a little belly in their cleavers. I would prefer a more traditional round handle but I don't have a problems with the blade shape.


----------



## Williamchan87

I have some maybe 50 different branded and styles of cleavers. Mainly Taiwanese, Hong Kong, and a few Japanese.


----------



## blokey

Williamchan87 said:


> I have some maybe 50 different branded and styles of cleavers. Mainly Taiwanese, Hong Kong, and a few Japanese.


I’m quite curious about Taiwanese brand, is there any one you would recommend?


----------



## natto

I like my chinshun. pai (4). About 220*105 at 370g, flat profile. The edge came pretty thin and sharp. Reactivity is low, the steel might contain a dash of chromium.


----------



## Noodle Soup

blokey said:


> I’m quite curious about Taiwanese brand, is there any one you would recommend?


I have a made in Taiwan "Rice Knife" brand cleaver I brought back from Malaysia I'm pretty happy with. That might be an in house brand for the big cook ware store I was in but they had a full line of sizes and weights of cleavers under Rice Knife. All made in Taiwan.


----------



## blokey

Just saw this recipe video, a good show case of a traditional Chinese grind pian dao, you can see it wedged quite a bit due to thickness, it could be made thinner. I really like the Japanese made cleaver and Cantonese Sang Dao grind in that regard


----------



## gaijin

OK... perhaps time to write something about my latest cleaver. I recently purchased a Shibazi DW343 from Aliexpress. Total cost including shipping and customs/VAT to Sweden was about 22 USD. Took a month to get home.

The link I used for the purchase is this: 18.58US $ 49% OFF|Fish Knife Professional Chinese Chef's Knife Carbon Steel Household Multifunctional Slicing Knives Cleaver Kitchen Knife |Kitchen Knives| - AliExpress

Brand website: 阳江十八子集团有限公司

Ping @daniel_il

In the new knifes thread, @Auskid wrote that



Auskid said:


> Good choice, this is probably the biggest brand for Cantonese chefs in China. As it is a professional slicing cleaver for delicate work, it does require user to thin the blade to its liking.



Upon initial inspection, the fit and finish was like I suspected - rather cheap. The handle took a few passes of sandpaper and some oil to feel nice. 

The back and choil of the blade is not sharp, but not rounded either. Needs no work from me. 

The edge needed some work as Auskid said. The first problem was that the edge was actually only ground from one side, and the other side had a burr. Once I put a working cutting edge on the blade it was OK but not great. 

Today I did some thinning on both sides using a Shapton Kuromaki 120 followed by a JNS 300, and then I went to sharpening the edge using the same JSN 300 followed by a King Deluxe 1200 and some light stropping. After this, the knife just fell through carrots and tomatos and cut paper and shaved armhair just like on the youtubes. 

In total, I really like it for the money - but my specimen needed some work. 

Also... I couldn't let myself be satisfied so I continued with an even finer stone to try to get it even sharper. Not sure I did get it sharper... but I didn't destroy the edge totally. Next time I'll probably stop after the King stone and the strop. 


Out of the box:







After light thinning and a careful sharpening, followed by sanding and oiling the handle it looks like this:


----------



## stringer

gaijin said:


> OK... perhaps time to write something about my latest cleaver. I recently purchased a Shibazi DW343 from Aliexpress. Total cost including shipping and customs/VAT to Sweden was about 22 USD. Took a month to get home.
> 
> The link I used for the purchase is this: 18.58US $ 49% OFF|Fish Knife Professional Chinese Chef's Knife Carbon Steel Household Multifunctional Slicing Knives Cleaver Kitchen Knife |Kitchen Knives| - AliExpress
> 
> Brand website: 阳江十八子集团有限公司
> 
> Ping @daniel_il
> 
> In the new knifes thread, @Auskid wrote that
> 
> 
> 
> Upon initial inspection, the fit and finish was like I suspected - rather cheap. The handle took a few passes of sandpaper and some oil to feel nice.
> 
> The back and choil of the blade is not sharp, but not rounded either. Needs no work from me.
> 
> The edge needed some work as Auskid said. The first problem was that the edge was actually only ground from one side, and the other side had a burr. Once I put a working cutting edge on the blade it was OK but not great.
> 
> Today I did some thinning on both sides using a Shapton Kuromaki 120 followed by a JNS 300, and then I went to sharpening the edge using the same JSN 300 followed by a King Deluxe 1200 and some light stropping. After this, the knife just fell through carrots and tomatos and cut paper and shaved armhair just like on the youtubes.
> 
> In total, I really like it for the money - but my specimen needed some work.
> 
> Also... I couldn't let myself be satisfied so I continued with an even finer stone to try to get it even sharper. Not sure I did get it sharper... but I didn't destroy the edge totally. Next time I'll probably stop after the King stone and the strop.
> 
> 
> Out of the box:
> 
> View attachment 169811
> 
> 
> After light thinning and a careful sharpening, followed by sanding and oiling the handle it looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 169812


Nice work. Looks ready to rock and roll.


----------



## Auskid

gaijin said:


> OK... perhaps time to write something about my latest cleaver. I recently purchased a Shibazi DW343 from Aliexpress. Total cost including shipping and customs/VAT to Sweden was about 22 USD. Took a month to get home.
> 
> The link I used for the purchase is this: 18.58US $ 49% OFF|Fish Knife Professional Chinese Chef's Knife Carbon Steel Household Multifunctional Slicing Knives Cleaver Kitchen Knife |Kitchen Knives| - AliExpress
> 
> Brand website: 阳江十八子集团有限公司
> 
> Ping @daniel_il
> 
> In the new knifes thread, @Auskid wrote that
> 
> 
> 
> Upon initial inspection, the fit and finish was like I suspected - rather cheap. The handle took a few passes of sandpaper and some oil to feel nice.
> 
> The back and choil of the blade is not sharp, but not rounded either. Needs no work from me.
> 
> The edge needed some work as Auskid said. The first problem was that the edge was actually only ground from one side, and the other side had a burr. Once I put a working cutting edge on the blade it was OK but not great.
> 
> Today I did some thinning on both sides using a Shapton Kuromaki 120 followed by a JNS 300, and then I went to sharpening the edge using the same JSN 300 followed by a King Deluxe 1200 and some light stropping. After this, the knife just fell through carrots and tomatos and cut paper and shaved armhair just like on the youtubes.
> 
> In total, I really like it for the money - but my specimen needed some work.
> 
> Also... I couldn't let myself be satisfied so I continued with an even finer stone to try to get it even sharper. Not sure I did get it sharper... but I didn't destroy the edge totally. Next time I'll probably stop after the King stone and the strop.
> 
> 
> Out of the box:
> 
> View attachment 169811
> 
> 
> After light thinning and a careful sharpening, followed by sanding and oiling the handle it looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 169812


The Kanji on this knife says 桑刀 (Mulberry leaf knife). Orignally designed for cutting Mulberry leaf into super thin slices to feed newborn silkworms. This is a knife widely used among Cantonese chefs for cutting ingredients into crazy thin slices. Westerners usually buy CKC, a kitchen knife brand from Hong Kong for better FnF. It is about 5 times more expensive though. Chinese families don't use this type of cleaver as this is more of a special purpose knife.


----------



## gaijin

Auskid said:


> Chinese families don't use this type of cleaver as this is more of a special purpose knife.



What would the chinese home cook buy then?


----------



## blokey

gaijin said:


> What would the chinese home cook buy then?


What ever people saw at supermarket… mostly cheap 4cr or 3cr small cleavers, thick but not bone cleaver thick, mostly popular brands like Shibazi, Zhangxiaoquan, Supor. A lot of people also opt for Santoku and Western chefs these days.


----------



## Noodle Soup

gaijin said:


> What would the chinese home cook buy then?


Like Blokey said, what ever they find in the supper market but from my experience in China its normally something thick enough to handle poultry and waterfowl bones. That's different than a real heavy duty bone chopper for pork, sheep, goats and beef.


----------



## Auskid

gaijin said:


> What would the chinese home cook buy then?


Normal Chinese families use 文武刀(multipurpose knife). You can chop small bones using the heel while cut 
thin slices using the outer part of the blade. You can search on YouTube for chinese cleaver techniques and see how professional chefs using different part of the blade for different tasks.


----------



## pavhav

I rather like the cheaper Chinese cleavers myself. After the rounding of spine & choils, thinning and sharpening - you get very worry free, functional blades. I have a stainless Shibazi F208, and was also pleasantly surprised by the Dengjia high carbon cleaver. It is described as "composite" which I didn't realize meant laminated until I thinned it enough to reveal the cladding line. It came sharp nearly everywhere but the cutting edge, but after some taming turned out quite nicely. It flares out at the spine, which once rounded, becomes comfortable to grip.
Before:




After:


----------



## Auskid

pavhav said:


> I rather like the cheaper Chinese cleavers myself. After the rounding of spine & choils, thinning and sharpening - you get very worry free, functional blades. I have a stainless Shibazi F208, and was also pleasantly surprised by the Dengjia high carbon cleaver. It is described as "composite" which I didn't realize meant laminated until I thinned it enough to reveal the cladding line. It came sharp nearly everywhere but the cutting edge, but after some taming turned out quite nicely. It flares out at the spine, which once rounded, becomes comfortable to grip.
> Before:
> View attachment 169883
> 
> After:
> View attachment 169885


This is a famous brand from Sichuan. Most of Chinese living in small towns or rural area still go to their local blacksmith to buy hand made carbon steel knives.


----------



## daniel_il

My collection with the last addition of stainless sugimoto


----------



## damiano

daniel_il said:


> My collection with the last addition of stainless sugimotoView attachment 170603


Saw this pic on instagram, Sugimoto's own page. Congrats!


----------



## daniel_il

damiano said:


> Saw this pic on instagram, Sugimoto's own page. Congrats!



thanks. This instagram thing is new for me, i tagged their shop and they shared my post

anyway im very happy with their stainless cleaver, excellent grinds and worries free.


----------



## kpham12

A couple cool videos of a stainless Sugimoto in action that YouTube recommended to me. They’re really well shot and edited with excellent cleaver technique too. The whole channel is great.


----------



## BillHanna




----------



## damiano

daniel_il said:


> thanks. This instagram thing is new for me, i tagged their shop and they shared my post
> 
> anyway im very happy with their stainless cleaver, excellent grinds and worries free.


Sugimoto’s insta page is quite fun, lighthearted.

I have been using a Sugimoto sf4030 carbon cleaver for a few years now. Still very happy with it!


----------



## BillHanna

How do y'all travel with yours? I was thinking about a wooden edge gurad to match the handle somewhat, but then I thought I've seen that before. What's in my head is about an inch thick, and has twine or something to wrap around, not friction fit.


----------



## blokey

Gesshin Ginga #6 Stainless Chinese Cleaver (Wa-Handle)


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin Ginga line is a custom line we have produced for us exclusively. These knives are very thin and light and have great fit and finish. The spine and choil are rounded and polished. The steel is a very fine-grained stainless steel hardened...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com





JKI just restocked Wa-handled Ginga cleaver.


----------



## Pertti

Daniel and kpham, you guys got me pulling my stainless Sugi out from the "to sell" pile and back into the action. It's a nice cleaver, a bit sturdier edged than my CCKs.


----------



## cooktocut

kpham12 said:


> A couple cool videos of a stainless Sugimoto in action that YouTube recommended to me. They’re really well shot and edited with excellent cleaver technique too. The whole channel is great.



Thanks for the cleaver porn 

There’s something so satisfying about watching good technique with a cleaver. I swear I could watch it all day. Time to practice!


----------



## daniel_il

Pertti said:


> Daniel and kpham, you guys got me pulling my stainless Sugi out from the "to sell" pile and back into the action. It's a nice cleaver, a bit sturdier edged than my CCKs.



matter of preference i guess.for me both great cutters, the cck is extremely thin knife and great slicer. the sugimoto got more weight behind it, the steel and geometry are better IMO.

also i tend to crush lots of ginger and garlic. the cck is a bit delicate for that task.


----------



## Pertti

daniel_il said:


> matter of preference i guess.for me both great cutters, the cck is extremely thin knife and great slicer. the sugimoto got more weight behind it, the steel and geometry are better IMO.
> 
> also i tend to crush lots of ginger and garlic. the cck is a bit delicate for that task.



Yes it's nice to have a bit thicker veg cleaver as well and also a smaller one like the Sugi is. My stainless cck slicer 1112 is about 100g heavier IIRC than my carbon 1102 though, but the stainless is still thinner bte than the Sugi. I use the 1112 for crushing garlic easily, but more often I just slice or chop garlic though in general. Almost getting into mood for yet another cleaver here lmao. need to check what waaw1331 has on ebay


----------



## kpham12

Pertti said:


> Yes it's nice to have a bit thicker veg cleaver as well and also a smaller one like the Sugi is. My stainless cck slicer 1112 is about 100g heavier IIRC than my carbon 1102 though, but the stainless is still thinner bte than the Sugi. I use the 1112 for crushing garlic easily, but more often I just slice or chop garlic though in general. Almost getting into mood for yet another cleaver here lmao. need to check what waaw1331 has on ebay


I bought my Sugimoto used and thinned it out so it’s about the same thinness as a CCK right behind the edge, but it thickens up quickly with some convexity for better food release while the CCK is thin throughout. The steel on the Sugimoto is nicer as well although sometimes you want the softer steel of the CCK depending on the environment. The “another cleaver” mood hit me a few days ago and it should be arriving today. I think I have a problem.


----------



## Pertti

kpham12 said:


> I bought my Sugimoto used and thinned it out so it’s about the same thinness as a CCK right behind the edge, but it thickens up quickly with some convexity for better food release while the CCK is thin throughout. The steel on the Sugimoto is nicer as well although sometimes you want the softer steel of the CCK depending on the environment. The “another cleaver” mood hit me a few days ago and it should be arriving today. I think I have a problem.



It seems common around here these problems  Another problem is storing these rectangles


----------



## BillHanna

Pertti said:


> Another problem is storing these rectangles


Right. A knife roll just isn't in the cards. It's the mechanic's life for me. I have to decide metal or plastic toolbox.


----------



## Jville

BillHanna said:


> Right. A knife roll just isn't in the cards. It's the mechanic's life for me. I have to deicde metal or plastic toolbox.


They will fit in a knife bag, like a portfolio type. A knife roll, perhaps not so much, but the portfolio style it’s not a problem. They fit fine.


----------



## BillHanna

Jville said:


> They will fit in a knife bag, like a portfolio type. A knife roll, perhaps not so much, but the portfolio style it’s not a problem. They fit fine.


I was curious about that. I thought maybe blade height would make it awkward. Thanks for the info.


----------



## BillHanna

BillHanna said:


> Fredrik Spåre put some up on IG. That might be my first custom.


Rereading this thread for fun, and found this. I was off by one.


----------



## BillHanna

Third in a row. Geez.

Any full size (~220x~110) customs out there? If so, any advice?


----------



## demirtasem

Anybody tried Chopper King which CKTG carries? White#2 and Aus10 steels promising.


----------



## Noodle Soup

demirtasem said:


> Anybody tried Chopper King which CKTG carries? White#2 and Aus10 steels promising.


Thanks pointing that one out to me! Going to try the White #2.


----------



## blokey

demirtasem said:


> Anybody tried Chopper King which CKTG carries? White#2 and Aus10 steels promising.


Just noticed CKTG have them too, seems like a good deal, you rarely see this outside Taiwan.


----------



## btbyrd

Those Chopper Kings look excellent. Mark at CKTG is also doing a CCK-style copycat cleaver with stamped characters (instead of the printed on CCK ones now that have the QR code) and upgraded handle.


----------



## blokey

btbyrd said:


> Those Chopper Kings look excellent. Mark at CKTG is also doing a CCK-style copycat cleaver with stamped characters (instead of the printed on CCK ones now that have the QR code) and upgraded handle.


Is he selling those now? Seems interesting, I remember he used to sell some under Richmond house brand. TBH the old CCK style is not unique tho, most Hongkongese cleaver have the same style, like Fook Kee and Leung Tim.


----------



## btbyrd

Not yet, but they're coming soonish.


----------



## blokey

btbyrd said:


> Not yet, but they're coming soonish.



That's a rehandled Fook Kee, Razorsharp actually sales them, seems like decent knife, Chinese Knives (FOOK KEE).


----------



## btbyrd

Nice. Thanks for IDing that for us.


----------



## tostadas

Given the price point, I may try one out. In general I feel like a cleaver shouldnt have a "neck" (ie. handle should butt up against the blade). But we'll see.


----------



## blokey

Looking at Chopper King's video I just realized the both the cladded part and the handle is welded on to the knives, not sure if these thing will affect the longevity of the knife, but I am not really a fan of welded handle.


----------



## kpham12

demirtasem said:


> Anybody tried Chopper King which CKTG carries? White#2 and Aus10 steels promising.



Here’s my attempt at a review. I’ve had the AUS-10 for almost 2 weeks now and used it for bulk prep a couple times.





















Comes super thick out of the handle, about 5 mm, and immediately flattens out so the rest of the cleaver is pretty uniform thickness until you get to the grind. The grind starts about halfway down the sandblasted finish, you can see where it kicks in in the choil shot, and it’s pretty much a wide bevel grind from that point, although the shoulders aren’t too hard. Very thin behind the edge, but it’s basically symmetrically flat ground down from where the grind starts to the edge with some minor low spots all down the knife, although it’s not a hollow grind. The combination of flat grind and sandblasted finish leads to major stiction OOTB, which feels like slight wedging when cutting carrots lengthwise and doing other similar tasks, despite being so thin BTE. I was really surprised at first because of how thin it is BTE, until I realized it was more of a stiction issue than wedging. I’ve only done a minor thinning to get rid of the sandblasted finish and convexed the right side slightly and it has helped a lot, way smoother cutting and better food release. On my particular example, the thinness is uniform all down the edge, but the shoulders are a little more pronounced at the tip than the heel. I suspect this is more of a sign of mass production than a design feature, and it probably varies slightly from cleaver to cleaver.

I haven’t used other stainless clad AUS-10 knives, but the steel on this one, I would describe as serviceable. The steels on my Sugimoto stainless and Tojiro VG-10 cleavers are both nicer, although you would expect this at 3-4 times the price. OOTB, the Chopper King AUS-10 takes a bit of extra effort to raise a burr and clean it up, but this improves after thinning. I got an edge that cleanly cuts paper towel at 1k, 2k, 3k and 4k and it definitely takes a bit more effort at 1-2k, at 3-4k, the stone does most of the work deburring. But I feel the sweet spot for the edge is 1-2k for heavy use. It’ll lose its fresh off the stone sharpness pretty quickly, but hold an edge with lasting bite for peppers, tomatoes, apples, etc. 3k is good too, but at 4k, it feels very sharp, but starts to get slick pretty quick after some board contact. And although I can get clean edges at all these grits, when you feel the edge on your fingertips with very light pressure, the AUS-10 edge doesn’t quite get as “bite into your fingerpads” sharp as Sugimoto stainless or Tojiro (Tojiro VG-10 can actually get surprisingly sharp) and definitely not as sharp feeling as a nice carbon steel. The overall edge retention isn’t as good either, but better than stainless CCK, Shibazi and cheap supermarket Chinese cleavers. Hopefully, someone who picks up the white 2 version can report back on how it holds up.

In my opinion, the best feature of this cleaver is the overall construction. Feels very nice and well weighted in hand with proper forward balance and the thick spine at the handle is nice to grip. Handle is finished as opposed to the unfinished CCK barrel handle and very comfortable. While fit and finish are nothing to write home about and there’s a bit of a gap where the tang enters the handle, the spine and choil aren’t sharp OOTB. Also, some CCKs seem to be slightly “wavy” or bent when you look down the spine and/or edge while the Chopper King doesn’t have this problem. Just a very well put together knife at this price point.

The profile on the White 2 version looks more curved than the AUS-10, but both are definitely suited more for push cutting or a nice guillotine and glide motion. Ironically, the Chopper King isn’t the best for straight up down chopping and definitely isn’t as flat at the CCK profile so many people love. There’s more curve towards the back half, so you end up mostly using the front half and it rolls nicely towards the heel without coming to a hard stop.

These seem to be designed for professional Chinese cooks, most of whom usually like a more curved profile and while stiction is a big issue OOTB, it’s easily solved with stones or sandpaper. An excellent cleaver to practice thinning and reprofiling on if you want. The steel seems to be an upgrade from CCK/Shibazi stainless, but I don’t think it’ll be anybody’s favorite to work with. The super thick spine out of the handle is nice and makes the Chopper King feel very substantial and at about 350 grams, it’s a nice middle ground between a super thin CCK and a Japanese made #6 cleaver which is going to be a lot more convex and usually thicker behind the edge. CCK has a more user friendly profile and is a better cutter OOTB with some slight convexity, but with current CCK prices, I think the Chopper King is a better value with better construction. All in all, despite some of the problems I pointed out, these are a screaming deal for $60 plus shipping. I feel like CKTG probably ordered these in bulk and I can see the prices taking a bit of a bump in the future if these catch on.

P.S.
The sticker on the left side leaves a bunch of crappy residue


----------



## stringer

kpham12 said:


> Here’s my attempt at a review. I’ve had the AUS-10 for almost 2 weeks now and used it for bulk prep a couple times.
> View attachment 173200
> 
> View attachment 173201
> 
> View attachment 173199
> 
> View attachment 173204
> 
> View attachment 173208
> 
> 
> Comes super thick out of the handle, about 5 mm, and immediately flattens out so the rest of the cleaver is pretty uniform thickness until you get to the grind. The grind starts about halfway down the sandblasted finish, you can see where it kicks in in the choil shot, and it’s pretty much a wide bevel grind from that point, although the shoulders aren’t too hard. Very thin behind the edge, but it’s basically symmetrically flat ground down from where the grind starts to the edge with some minor low spots all down the knife, although it’s not a hollow grind. The combination of flat grind and sandblasted finish leads to major stiction OOTB, which feels like slight wedging when cutting carrots lengthwise and doing other similar tasks, despite being so thin BTE. I was really surprised at first because of how thin it is BTE, until I realized it was more of a stiction issue than wedging. I’ve only done a minor thinning to get rid of the sandblasted finish and convexed the right side slightly and it has helped a lot, way smoother cutting and better food release. On my particular example, the thinness is uniform all down the edge, but the shoulders are a little more pronounced at the tip than the heel. I suspect this is more of a sign of mass production than a design feature, and it probably varies slightly from cleaver to cleaver.
> 
> I haven’t used other stainless clad AUS-10 knives, but the steel on this one, I would describe as serviceable. The steels on my Sugimoto stainless and Tojiro VG-10 cleavers are both nicer, although you would expect this at 3-4 times the price. OOTB, the Chopper King AUS-10 takes a bit of extra effort to raise a burr and clean it up, but this improves after thinning. I got an edge that cleanly cuts paper towel at 1k, 2k, 3k and 4k and it definitely takes a bit more effort at 1-2k, at 3-4k, the stone does most of the work deburring. But I feel the sweet spot for the edge is 1-2k for heavy use. It’ll lose its fresh off the stone sharpness pretty quickly, but hold an edge with lasting bite for peppers, tomatoes, apples, etc. 3k is good too, but at 4k, it feels very sharp, but starts to get slick pretty quick after some board contact. And although I can get clean edges at all these grits, when you feel the edge on your fingertips with very light pressure, the AUS-10 edge doesn’t quite get as “bite into your fingerpads” sharp as Sugimoto stainless or Tojiro (Tojiro VG-10 can actually get surprisingly sharp) and definitely not as sharp feeling as a nice carbon steel. The overall edge retention isn’t as good either, but better than stainless CCK, Shibazi and cheap supermarket Chinese cleavers. Hopefully, someone who picks up the white 2 version can report back on how it holds up.
> 
> In my opinion, the best feature of this cleaver is the overall construction. Feels very nice and well weighted in hand with proper forward balance and the thick spine at the handle is nice to grip. Handle is finished as opposed to the unfinished CCK barrel handle and very comfortable. While fit and finish are nothing to write home about and there’s a bit of a gap where the tang enters the handle, the spine and choil aren’t sharp OOTB. Also, some CCKs seem to be slightly “wavy” or bent when you look down the spine and/or edge while the Chopper King doesn’t have this problem. Just a very well put together knife at this price point.
> 
> The profile on the White 2 version looks more curved than the AUS-10, but both are definitely suited more for push cutting or a nice guillotine and glide motion. Ironically, the Chopper King isn’t the best for straight up down chopping and definitely isn’t as flat at the CCK profile so many people love. There’s more curve towards the back half, so you end up mostly using the front half and it rolls nicely towards the heel without coming to a hard stop.
> 
> These seem to be designed for professional Chinese cooks, most of whom usually like a more curved profile and while stiction is a big issue OOTB, it’s easily solved with stones or sandpaper. An excellent cleaver to practice thinning and reprofiling on if you want. The steel seems to be an upgrade from CCK/Shibazi stainless, but I don’t think it’ll be anybody’s favorite to work with. The super thick spine out of the handle is nice and makes the Chopper King feel very substantial and at about 350 grams, it’s a nice middle ground between a super thin CCK and a Japanese made #6 cleaver which is going to be a lot more convex and usually thicker behind the edge. CCK has a more user friendly profile and is a better cutter OOTB with some slight convexity, but with current CCK prices, I think the Chopper King is a better value with better construction. All in all, despite some of the problems I pointed out, these are a screaming deal for $60 plus shipping. I feel like CKTG probably ordered these in bulk and I can see the prices taking a bit of a bump in the future if these catch on.
> 
> P.S.
> The sticker on the left side leaves a bunch of crappy residue


Thanks for the review. Looks interesting


----------



## tostadas

kpham12 said:


> Here’s my attempt at a review. I’ve had the AUS-10 for almost 2 weeks now and used it for bulk prep a couple times.
> View attachment 173200
> 
> View attachment 173201
> 
> View attachment 173199
> 
> View attachment 173204
> 
> View attachment 173309
> 
> 
> Comes super thick out of the handle, about 5 mm, and immediately flattens out so the rest of the cleaver is pretty uniform thickness until you get to the grind. The grind starts about halfway down the sandblasted finish, you can see where it kicks in in the choil shot, and it’s pretty much a wide bevel grind from that point, although the shoulders aren’t too hard. Very thin behind the edge, but it’s basically symmetrically flat ground down from where the grind starts to the edge with some minor low spots all down the knife, although it’s not a hollow grind. The combination of flat grind and sandblasted finish leads to major stiction OOTB, which feels like slight wedging when cutting carrots lengthwise and doing other similar tasks, despite being so thin BTE. I was really surprised at first because of how thin it is BTE, until I realized it was more of a stiction issue than wedging. I’ve only done a minor thinning to get rid of the sandblasted finish and convexed the right side slightly and it has helped a lot, way smoother cutting and better food release. On my particular example, the thinness is uniform all down the edge, but the shoulders are a little more pronounced at the tip than the heel. I suspect this is more of a sign of mass production than a design feature, and it probably varies slightly from cleaver to cleaver.
> 
> I haven’t used other stainless clad AUS-10 knives, but the steel on this one, I would describe as serviceable. The steels on my Sugimoto stainless and Tojiro VG-10 cleavers are both nicer, although you would expect this at 3-4 times the price. OOTB, the Chopper King AUS-10 takes a bit of extra effort to raise a burr and clean it up, but this improves after thinning. I got an edge that cleanly cuts paper towel at 1k, 2k, 3k and 4k and it definitely takes a bit more effort at 1-2k, at 3-4k, the stone does most of the work deburring. But I feel the sweet spot for the edge is 1-2k for heavy use. It’ll lose its fresh off the stone sharpness pretty quickly, but hold an edge with lasting bite for peppers, tomatoes, apples, etc. 3k is good too, but at 4k, it feels very sharp, but starts to get slick pretty quick after some board contact. And although I can get clean edges at all these grits, when you feel the edge on your fingertips with very light pressure, the AUS-10 edge doesn’t quite get as “bite into your fingerpads” sharp as Sugimoto stainless or Tojiro (Tojiro VG-10 can actually get surprisingly sharp) and definitely not as sharp feeling as a nice carbon steel. The overall edge retention isn’t as good either, but better than stainless CCK, Shibazi and cheap supermarket Chinese cleavers. Hopefully, someone who picks up the white 2 version can report back on how it holds up.
> 
> In my opinion, the best feature of this cleaver is the overall construction. Feels very nice and well weighted in hand with proper forward balance and the thick spine at the handle is nice to grip. Handle is finished as opposed to the unfinished CCK barrel handle and very comfortable. While fit and finish are nothing to write home about and there’s a bit of a gap where the tang enters the handle, the spine and choil aren’t sharp OOTB. Also, some CCKs seem to be slightly “wavy” or bent when you look down the spine and/or edge while the Chopper King doesn’t have this problem. Just a very well put together knife at this price point.
> 
> The profile on the White 2 version looks more curved than the AUS-10, but both are definitely suited more for push cutting or a nice guillotine and glide motion. Ironically, the Chopper King isn’t the best for straight up down chopping and definitely isn’t as flat at the CCK profile so many people love. There’s more curve towards the back half, so you end up mostly using the front half and it rolls nicely towards the heel without coming to a hard stop.
> 
> These seem to be designed for professional Chinese cooks, most of whom usually like a more curved profile and while stiction is a big issue OOTB, it’s easily solved with stones or sandpaper. An excellent cleaver to practice thinning and reprofiling on if you want. The steel seems to be an upgrade from CCK/Shibazi stainless, but I don’t think it’ll be anybody’s favorite to work with. The super thick spine out of the handle is nice and makes the Chopper King feel very substantial and at about 350 grams, it’s a nice middle ground between a super thin CCK and a Japanese made #6 cleaver which is going to be a lot more convex and usually thicker behind the edge. CCK has a more user friendly profile and is a better cutter OOTB with some slight convexity, but with current CCK prices, I think the Chopper King is a better value with better construction. All in all, despite some of the problems I pointed out, these are a screaming deal for $60 plus shipping. I feel like CKTG probably ordered these in bulk and I can see the prices taking a bit of a bump in the future if these catch on.
> 
> P.S.
> The sticker on the left side leaves a bunch of crappy residue


Does it have the "rat tail" style tang that comes out the backside of the handle?


----------



## kpham12

tostadas said:


> Does it have the "rat tail" style tang that comes out the backside of the handle?


Yup. Feels very secure.


----------



## ch_br

I've been looking at a few cleavers for a while.. This thread is great


----------



## btbyrd

Maybe of limited interest, but I got the cleaver saya from CKTG and it fits my CCK slicer quite well. I had been using a felt lined edge guard, but the CCK was so thin that it would slip off in my knife bag, so I had to keep it elsewhere. And it doesn't fit in my roll well, being a cleaver. Cleaver storage is kind of a drag, but this saya is just the ticket. It ain't especially pretty, and it had some finish issues (nothing some sandpaper and a small knife can't fix) but it was $35 and fits real good so I'm not complaining.


----------



## Noodle Soup

Received my carbon steel Chopper King today. Maybe not up to CCK but it has reasonably good fit and finish for the price. Nice mid size slicing cleaver, I'm not a supper fan of the little ones like the CCk 1303. A fair amount of rocker to the edge which can be a good thing or bad depending on your personal taste in cleavers. Hope to put it to full use sometime soon.


----------



## BillHanna

Just purchased an 1103 from another member. Here’s hoping the size suits me. Then, I’ll replace it with another Spåre.


----------



## Williamchan87

Chopper King is the largest Cleaver maker in Taiwan, and is like the CCK of Taiwan. However their older cleavers 30+ years ago or of better quality in general before they somewhat automated the whole system. It's a 3 person manufacturing team that produces millions of knives a year.

On a side note the new CCK's are not as good as the older versions.


----------



## blokey

Williamchan87 said:


> Chopper King is the largest Cleaver maker in Taiwan, and is like the CCK of Taiwan. However their older cleavers 30+ years ago or of better quality in general before they somewhat automated the whole system. It's a 3 person manufacturing team that produces millions of knives a year.
> 
> On a side note the new CCK's are not as good as the older versions.


Yeah I also heard the older CCK carbon steels are treated to a harder degree.


----------



## Tler

waited on more reviews of the chopper king white #2 to buy as a gift and now they're all sold out...
Would anyone advise for or against the CCK stainless handle that's still in stock?


----------



## tostadas

Tler said:


> waited on more reviews of the chopper king white #2 to buy as a gift and now they're all sold out...
> Would anyone advise for or against the CCK stainless handle that's still in stock?


Stainless handle knives can get slippery. They have no gaps between the blade and handle, so I guess that's a plus for cleaning. But I prefer the wood handles for grip, and just use some epoxy to seal up any gaps.


----------



## blokey

Tler said:


> waited on more reviews of the chopper king white #2 to buy as a gift and now they're all sold out...
> Would anyone advise for or against the CCK stainless handle that's still in stock?


You can buy wooden handle ccks at action sales.





Search results for: 'chan chi'







www.actionsales.com


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## Williamchan87

blokey said:


> Yeah I also heard the older CCK carbon steels are treated to a harder degree.


That and they are like made in china now in a manufacturing plant, and not crafted in house in HongKong


----------



## mgardiner

btbyrd said:


> Those Chopper Kings look excellent. Mark at CKTG is also doing a CCK-style copycat cleaver with stamped characters (instead of the printed on CCK ones now that have the QR code) and upgraded handle.


I'm looking for that and can't seem to find it. Could you possibly link it?


----------



## tostadas

mgardiner said:


> I'm looking for that and can't seem to find it. Could you possibly link it?


They haven't arrived yet. He talked about them in the cktg forums


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## BillHanna

mgardiner said:


> I'm looking for that and can't seem to find it. Could you possibly link it?


i think you can search Fook Kee on the site to find it.


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## btbyrd

This is the signup page for the CKTG Fook Kee. According to Mark, it is supposed to have "the same steel and Chinese character stamping as the old 1303."


----------



## boomchakabowwow

i sharpened "trusty" yesterday. it has been a very enjoyable journey learning how to use a cleaver. i call it my 90% blade. i use it that often. pancaking a pork chop by slapping it silly with the side of the blade is FUN! i smash garlic like i am swatting a fly.

hopefully Taiwan opens up to travel soon. if so, we will be there Oct. my MIL knows i love kitchen knives and she is gonna send me to an island where they make a very competitive cleaver. i have one, but it's giant and i have gravitated towards the smaller cleavers like the CCK1303. my Taiwan version has a more rounded blade profile, and i would argue it sharpens up sharper. 

i need another cleaver like i need a hole in the head, but it couldnt hurt to find a Taiwan one of similar weight and size, it might make me get rid of the CCK haha.


----------



## Noodle Soup

boomchakabowwow said:


> i sharpened "trusty" yesterday. it has been a very enjoyable journey learning how to use a cleaver. i call it my 90% blade. i use it that often. pancaking a pork chop by slapping it silly with the side of the blade is FUN! i smash garlic like i am swatting a fly.
> 
> hopefully Taiwan opens up to travel soon. if so, we will be there Oct. my MIL knows i love kitchen knives and she is gonna send me to an island where they make a very competitive cleaver. i have one, but it's giant and i have gravitated towards the smaller cleavers like the CCK1303. my Taiwan version has a more rounded blade profile, and i would argue it sharpens up sharper.
> 
> i need another cleaver like i need a hole in the head, but it couldnt hurt to find a Taiwan one of similar weight and size, it might make me get rid of the CCK haha.
> 
> View attachment 175795


Taiwan, Japan, you name it. I have my passport renewed and I'm ready for a lot of places to open back up!


----------



## boomchakabowwow

blokey said:


> You can buy wooden handle ccks at action sales.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Search results for: 'chan chi'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.actionsales.com


Wow. Prices went up there. I walked into their store and bought mine. Great store!


----------



## blokey

btbyrd said:


> This is the signup page for the CKTG Fook Kee. According to Mark, it is supposed to have "the same steel and Chinese character stamping as the old 1303."


I ask RazorSharp about the steel, they said it is SK4 at 61 HRC, if that's the case it is actually better than CCK.


----------



## blokey

boomchakabowwow said:


> Wow. Prices went up there. I walked into their store and bought mine. Great store!


Bought mine at the store too, very good place to stock up on other equipments, too. Their in-store price is usually lower.


----------



## KDSDeluxe

Hello everyone,

I have a question for the experienced Cleaver users.
I'm having a custom cleaver built and I'm not sure yet whether with or without a fingerrest. What is your opinion about the topic. Do you think it makes sense for a fingerrest on a cleaver? The cleaver should be 190x95. And with a fingerrest you always take a little bit away from the cutting length. But I'm afraid that heel will bother me without a fingerrest.
I work always with pinch grip.

I would be happy about suggestions

regards


----------



## Keith Sinclair

CCK all the way! Soft carbon steel easy to reset the edge after chopping through chicken bones for ginger chix. platters. Chinese know how to make cleavers check out the grind on this kau Kong chopper.


----------



## Jville

KDSDeluxe said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have a question for the experienced Cleaver users.
> I'm having a custom cleaver built and I'm not sure yet whether with or without a fingerrest. What is your opinion about the topic. Do you think it makes sense for a fingerrest on a cleaver? The cleaver should be 190x95. And with a fingerrest you always take a little bit away from the cutting length. But I'm afraid that heel will bother me without a fingerrest.
> I work always with pinch grip.
> 
> I would be happy about suggestions
> 
> regards


If it was mine I wouldn’t put it in there. Even with a small cleaver I hold it different and don’t do a pinch grip. But you still could probably hold it more traditionally with the finger notch out, still letting your fingers hang. A finger notch will also takeaway sone steel, so it will be a little lighter. Maybe you want that, maybe you don’t. Those dimensions are small enough that I guess you could pinch grip if you wanted. Theoretically, I don’t think you have to lose cutting edge with the notch. It’s a tall blade and pinching my gain you sone length on longer taller ingredients. Another thing to consider is weight. What style of cleaver is it? Is it got a barrel style handle or like a wa? You have to consider the overall package how it will affect the weight and feel. Also it could affect you scooping abilities some, especially in a already short blade. Perhaps you might want to consider getting it longer. Those dimensions are basically small sugimoto dimensions. I love the small sugimoto cleaver. It’s a little do all bull dog. Since it’s smaller it’s still light and nimble, but it also has mass for its dimensions making it stiff and sturdy and still having some weight to it. A much different feel than a cck. I don’t think I would like my ccks to have the sugimoto dimensions, they need more length imho. At the end of the day your preferences Trump, so if you want it then I guess get it. That’s one thing about customs you can go against norms and do your own thing sometimes.


----------



## KDSDeluxe

Jville said:


> If it was mine I wouldn’t put it in there. Even with a small cleaver I hold it different and don’t do a pinch grip. But you still could probably hold it more traditionally with the finger notch out, still letting your fingers hang. A finger notch will also takeaway sone steel, so it will be a little lighter. Maybe you want that, maybe you don’t. Those dimensions are small enough that I guess you could pinch grip if you wanted. Theoretically, I don’t think you have to lose cutting edge with the notch. It’s a tall blade and pinching my gain you sone length on longer taller ingredients. Another thing to consider is weight. What style of cleaver is it? Is it got a barrel style handle or like a wa? You have to consider the overall package how it will affect the weight and feel. Also it could affect you scooping abilities some, especially in a already short blade. Perhaps you might want to consider getting it longer. Those dimensions are basically small sugimoto dimensions. I love the small sugimoto cleaver. It’s a little do all bull dog. Since it’s smaller it’s still light and nimble, but it also has mass for its dimensions making it stiff and sturdy and still having some weight to it. A much different feel than a cck. I don’t think I would like my ccks to have the sugimoto dimensions, they need more length imho. At the end of the day your preferences Trump, so if you want it then I guess get it. That’s one thing about customs you can go against norms and do your own thing sometimes.







This is one of the drawings, the handle will be 10 cm, 190x95 the blade. the weight will be between 300-350g  steel core tnt666 rough iron cladding, taper begins with 4 mm and ends with 1,5-2 mm. Handle is a mix between wa with barrel style
i think a full size cleaver will be to big for me. I also think with this dimensions is a way better for agility. the maker prefers without fingerrest. But if I don't loosing length i will go with the fingerrest.

Thank you very much for the feedback, I'll have to think about it...


----------



## Jville

KDSDeluxe said:


> View attachment 175975
> 
> This is one of the drawings, the handle will be 10 cm, 190x95 the blade. the weight will be between 300-350g  steel core tnt666 rough iron cladding, taper begins with 4 mm and ends with 1,5-2 mm. Handle is a mix between wa with barrel style
> i think a full size cleaver will be to big for me. I also think with this dimensions is a way better for agility. the maker prefers without fingerrest. But if I don't loosing length i will go with the fingerrest.
> 
> Thank you very much for the feedback, I'll have to think about it...


Looks and sounds really nice! I don’t think you are going to lose length with the finger rest. Your fingers would still be taking up space. Curling them into a pinch grip might actually give you more length in certain situations. Why does the maker prefer no finger rest?


----------



## KDSDeluxe

Jville said:


> Looks and sounds really nice! I don’t think you are going to lose length with the finger rest. Your fingers would still be taking up space. Curling them into a pinch grip might actually give you more length in certain situations. Why does the maker prefer no finger rest?



Because he prefers it traditional and he thinks you hold a cleaver differently


----------



## cooktocut

KDSDeluxe said:


> Because he prefers it traditional and he thinks you hold a cleaver differently


My first thought was that he probably wants a traditional rectangle with nothing breaking up the lines. Looks good, but then again so does a finger notch. Only one of my cleavers has one, and I have to say it is nice. Especially considering how thick that metal can be, equaling ultimate comfort  I say go for it, tradition be damned.


----------



## cooktocut

A couple pics, hope they help!


----------



## esoo

cooktocut said:


> A couple pics, hope they help!
> 
> View attachment 175987
> 
> View attachment 175990



If you're helping to create knife envy, you have succeeded.


----------



## KDSDeluxe

cooktocut said:


> My first thought was that he probably wants a traditional rectangle with nothing breaking up the lines. Looks good, but then again so does a finger notch. Only one of my cleavers has one, and I have to say it is nice. Especially considering how thick that metal can be, equaling ultimate comfort  I say go for it, tradition be damned.



I think both have something. I tore a tendon in my middle finger a year ago. Since then the finger has been a little weird and sensitive to pressure. That's why i'm afraid that the knife heel will hurt my finger during long work. And so it will be the ultimate comfort for me


----------



## KDSDeluxe

cooktocut said:


> A couple pics, hope they help!
> 
> View attachment 175987
> 
> View attachment 175990


so you got the beautiful cleaver from Kamon!
Congratulations
My first thought was a cleaver from Kamon, but he only makes 8 cm height in Europe, or a cleaver from Tritz. I chose Tritz. Around june/july Ben is building me a Gyuto. That's why I'm thinking about having a Nakiri built as well.
From Tritz there will be a 240x60 Gyuto with massive taper and the cleaver


----------



## cooktocut

Both great choices! I’m sure you’ll love them both.


----------



## KDSDeluxe

cooktocut said:


> Both great choices! I’m sure you’ll love them both.



Think so, too.

and it will be a nice Tritz family  with the two i have already.


----------



## demcav

I don't think I've lost any of the 200mm cutting edge (97mm height) having a finger notch on this cleaver. It's comfortable, but I'm not convinced the comfort is due to the notch since I use the same 3-finger grip (thumb, index, middle) that I use with my other cleavers...maybe it does allow a bit more room for the ring finger.


----------



## demcav

cooktocut said:


> A couple pics, hope they help!
> 
> View attachment 175987
> 
> View attachment 175990


That Kamon is gorgeous! Would you mind providing specs: size, weight, steel?


----------



## KDSDeluxe

demcav said:


> I don't think I've lost any of the 200mm cutting edge (97mm height) having a finger notch on this cleaver. It's comfortable, but I'm not convinced the comfort is due to the notch since I use the same 3-finger grip (thumb, index, middle) that I use with my other cleavers...maybe it does allow a bit more room for the ring finger. View attachment 176053


I think by a 3 finger grip you don’t need a finger notch. It‘s only good for pinch grip. I don't know if I like the 3 finger grip. so I'm not sure if with or without a notch Thanks for the answer


----------



## natto

Using a cleaver I adjust the grip to the task. The victory grip won't work with the middle finger in the rest. What about horizontal cuts? The finger rest can reduce versality of a knife.

Usually I don't even touch rhe heel. But it may be me, doing something wrong.


----------



## tostadas

KDSDeluxe said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have a question for the experienced Cleaver users.
> I'm having a custom cleaver built and I'm not sure yet whether with or without a fingerrest. What is your opinion about the topic. Do you think it makes sense for a fingerrest on a cleaver? The cleaver should be 190x95. And with a fingerrest you always take a little bit away from the cutting length. But I'm afraid that heel will bother me without a fingerrest.
> I work always with pinch grip.
> 
> I would be happy about suggestions
> 
> regards


I would recommend *no notch* for a cleaver for a few reasons:

Finger notch can be nice to have when you have a "neck" on a knife, as is typical on a Japanese style gyuto. For a gyuto, your finger may rest in between the neck and the choil, both of which are thin pieces of metal. The rounded notch is good here because it increases the surface area in contact with your middle finger, from two flat metal edges, to one longer continuous edge. However, in the case of a cleaver where the handle is butted right up against the choil, your middle finger rests on the handle rather than the "neck" and there is a lot more area to spread out pressure. Having a finger notch might even reduce the amount of surface area for that finger by pushing your grip farther forward, off the handle.
Balance, in my opinion, plays a much bigger role than the presence of a notch in how much pressure you experience at the choil area. Especially in the case of a cleaver which is usually very blade-heavy, the front of the knife naturally wants to "tip" forward, and it requires your wrist/finger/grip to counteract that. Consider the case where the cleaver is perfectly balanced at the grip, such that you can hold the knife between 2 fingers, and it does not want to naturally tip one way or the other. If your cleaver was balanced like that, there would be no force exerting pressure on your finger. So the closer to a neutral balance you get, the less you will have to fight against it. I recently purchased a cleaver that was 420g and very forward balanced. I swapped out the handle for a much heavier one going from around 50g to around 80g (+30g). This increased the overall weight to around 450g, and shifted the balance backward toward the grip by a little bit. Despite the weight increase, the cleaver actually feels "lighter" in hand because it requires less grip strength to counteract the forward balance.
In the extreme case of a very deep notch, you may not be able to have as strong of a grip on the handle. With the handle butted right up against the choil, you can have 3 fingers around the handle with a standard pinch grip. If you add let's say a 10mm deep notch, your grip will shift forward and might end up only having 2.5 fingers around the handle.
If you ever want to grip with 3 fingers on the blade, the notch will make gripping the knife kind of awkward.
Here's what I would recommend:

Rounded edges on the spine and choil to eliminate sharp spots.
Overall balance that is less forward, and instead closer to your grip.
Handle sized/shaped to give you the strongest grip. Too big is difficult to get a solid grip, too small, and your fingers may feel cramped.


----------



## KDSDeluxe

tostadas said:


> I would recommend *no notch* for a cleaver for a few reasons:
> 
> Finger notch can be nice to have when you have a "neck" on a knife, as is typical on a Japanese style gyuto. For a gyuto, your finger may rest in between the neck and the choil, both of which are thin pieces of metal. The rounded notch is good here because it increases the surface area in contact with your middle finger, from two flat metal edges, to one longer continuous edge. However, in the case of a cleaver where the handle is butted right up against the choil, your middle finger rests on the handle rather than the "neck" and there is a lot more area to spread out pressure. Having a finger notch might even reduce the amount of surface area for that finger by pushing your grip farther forward, off the handle.
> Balance, in my opinion, plays a much bigger role than the presence of a notch in how much pressure you experience at the choil area. Especially in the case of a cleaver which is usually very blade-heavy, the front of the knife naturally wants to "tip" forward, and it requires your wrist/finger/grip to counteract that. Consider the case where the cleaver is perfectly balanced at the grip, such that you can hold the knife between 2 fingers, and it does not want to naturally tip one way or the other. If your cleaver was balanced like that, there would be no force exerting pressure on your finger. So the closer to a neutral balance you get, the less you will have to fight against it. I recently purchased a cleaver that was 420g and very forward balanced. I swapped out the handle for a much heavier one going from around 50g to around 80g (+30g). This increased the overall weight to around 450g, and shifted the balance backward toward the grip by a little bit. Despite the weight increase, the cleaver actually feels "lighter" in hand because it requires less grip strength to counteract the forward balance.
> In the extreme case of a very deep notch, you may not be able to have as strong of a grip on the handle. With the handle butted right up against the choil, you can have 3 fingers around the handle with a standard pinch grip. If you add let's say a 10mm deep notch, your grip will shift forward and might end up only having 2.5 fingers around the handle.
> If you ever want to grip with 3 fingers on the blade, the notch will make gripping the knife kind of awkward.
> Here's what I would recommend:
> 
> Rounded edges on the spine and choil to eliminate sharp spots.
> Overall balance that is less forward, and instead closer to your grip.
> Handle sized/shaped to give you the strongest grip. Too big is difficult to get a solid grip, too small, and your fingers may feel cramped.


Thank you very much for the detailed explanation!

That describes exactly what the maker has explained about!

He also told me that you grip a cleaver differently and that the balance and work is different than with a gyuto. He meant that a rounded spine and choil in combination with the balance are important. Because you grip differently, the handle is shorter, otherwise it gets in the way of your wrist. Because i want a rokkaku hanmaru handle, he adapts this one barrel handle. Normally he uses the barrel style. he always ask for a drawing of your hand to adjust the handle exactly. 
I think that I should listen to the experience of the maker and do without the notch. 
He said a notch could be interfere and having negatively affect a cleaver.
He has already made 2 knives for me and with one of them he didn't follow all of my instructions. but that turned out to be very positive in handling.


----------



## FISHORDIE

My Gesshin Ginga #6 Wa handle that I picked up from Jon at JKI a number of years ago has been one of my main, go to knives in my roll and in my home.. I did a lot of testing of other cleavers before I chose this one.. Jon always does me right when recommending a knife for a task and once again nailed this one perfectly for me. I a not a pro but I go thru hundreds of pounds of celery, carrots, onions of all kinds and sizes, Garlic, Peppers, Cilantro, etc. per year..No Gourds or Proteins on this cleaver. Because of the various items I prepare, I tend to very often fine cut or Mince my produce in large quantities... When I cook I do so for between 10 and 100 people so the use of this #6, that weighs in at about a pound, is a gift from the heavens..With the very thin yet rigid blade profile, it goes thru product quickly, efficiently and brilliantly.. And, I can chop and scoop large bunches of each of the items at one time. No way my large Takeda Nakiri could come close to handling the task unless I had several hours dedicated to just chopping and mincing a few stalks or other products at a time.

As far as my grip, depending on the density and stacked heights of the product I am chopping, I either have 3 fingers on the right side of the cleaver, with my pinky resting lightly on the top half of the handle, without it near the heel of the blade, or even all 4 fingers on the right side with my thumb on the left.. Because I do not rock the blade (The edge profile is flat except for the front 2 or so inches) and because I often need to apply additional downward pressure on the knife to get thru bunches of Celery, for example, I save my wrist from moving at all. Just as importantly, this allows my wrist to be perfectly aligned with my forearm and top of the palm of my hand... the way nature intended it. It would undoubtedly be awkward, painful and limiting to use any motion in my wrist, elbow or ??? or hold with a normal or modified pinch grip, with the weight of this blade plus the added resistance of the product..This cleaver specific holding method allows me to chop using an incredibly fast up and down, yet powerful and in control motion, without impingement on any part of my body. I suppose this is a long winded way of saying I would never consider a notch for this size cleaver or most any large cleaver unless you plan on rocking (I am not sure why you would do that on a heavy, large and tall veggie cleaver).

Because I have several large, wonderful, edge grain, cutting boards, and have enough control to not whack the heck out of the boards, I usually only have to do a quick strop of the cleaver once during my very longest sessions and only after use when cutting for shorter periods of time (I strop every knife I use after every session).. The Gishen Ginga is stainless yet holds a sharp edge brilliantly. And of course the stainless makes maintaining it super easy.. With the height of this blade and the very slow wear of the edge, This blade will long outlast me as far as a lifetime..

Here is the link to the Cleaver I have and Love to use.









Gesshin Ginga #6 Stainless Chinese Cleaver (Wa-Handle)


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin Ginga line is a custom line we have produced for us exclusively. These knives are very thin and light and have great fit and finish. The spine and choil are rounded and polished. The steel is a very fine-grained stainless steel hardened...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com





Best of luck and have a wonderful year..

Jamie


----------



## Noodle Soup

FISHORDIE said:


> My Gesshin Ginga #6 Wa handle that I picked up from Jon at JKI a number of years ago has been one of my main, go to knives in my roll and in my home.. I did a lot of testing of other cleavers before I chose this one.. Jon always does me right when recommending a knife for a task and once again nailed this one perfectly for me. I a not a pro but I go thru hundreds of pounds of celery, carrots, onions of all kinds and sizes, Garlic, Peppers, Cilantro, etc. per year..No Gourds or Proteins on this cleaver. Because of the various items I prepare, I tend to very often fine cut or Mince my produce in large quantities... When I cook I do so for between 10 and 100 people so the use of this #6, that weighs in at about a pound, is a gift from the heavens..With the very thin yet rigid blade profile, it goes thru product quickly, efficiently and brilliantly.. And, I can chop and scoop large bunches of each of the items at one time. No way my large Takeda Nakiri could come close to handling the task unless I had several hours dedicated to just chopping and mincing a few stalks or other products at a time.
> 
> As far as my grip, depending on the density and stacked heights of the product I am chopping, I either have 3 fingers on the right side of the cleaver, with my pinky resting lightly on the top half of the handle, without it near the heel of the blade, or even all 4 fingers on the right side with my thumb on the left.. Because I do not rock the blade (The edge profile is flat except for the front 2 or so inches) and because I often need to apply additional downward pressure on the knife to get thru bunches of Celery, for example, I save my wrist from moving at all. Just as importantly, this allows my wrist to be perfectly aligned with my forearm and top of the palm of my hand... the way nature intended it. It would undoubtedly be awkward, painful and limiting to use and motion in my wrist, elbow or ??? or hold with a normal or modified pinch grip, with the weight of this blade plus the added resistance of the product..This cleaver specific holding method allows me to chop using an incredibly fast up and down, yet powerful and in control motion, without impingement on any part of my body. I suppose this is a long winded way of saying I would never consider a notch for this size cleaver or most any large cleaver unless you plan on rocking (I am not sure why you would do that however).
> 
> Because I have several large, wonderful, edge grain, cutting boards, and have enough control to not whack the heck out of the boards, I usually only have to do a quick strop of the cleaver once during my very longest sessions and only after use when cutting for shorter periods of time (I strop every knife I use after every session).. The Gishen Ginga is stainless yet holds a sharp edge brilliantly. And of course the stainless makes maintaining it super easy.. With the height of this blade and the very slow wear of the edge, This blade will long outlast me as far as a lifetime..
> 
> Here is the link to the Cleaver I have and Love to use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gesshin Ginga #6 Stainless Chinese Cleaver (Wa-Handle)
> 
> 
> Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin Ginga line is a custom line we have produced for us exclusively. These knives are very thin and light and have great fit and finish. The spine and choil are rounded and polished. The steel is a very fine-grained stainless steel hardened...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.japaneseknifeimports.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best of luck and have a wonderful year..
> 
> Jamie


Every time anyone mentions this cleaver I always find it sold out. Is it ever available or it just something from the past?


----------



## Keith Sinclair

He has a barrel handle stainless clad carbon core in stock. Most of my home knives are San Mai carbon core. Tho happy with my stainless Suji. 3040 good home use smaller vegetable cleaver.
No worries about rust & easy to sharpen. When got it was under 200.00. Cheapest see it these days is 210.00 at JCK.


----------



## Noodle Soup

Keith Sinclair said:


> He has a barrel handle stainless clad carbon core in stock. Most of my home knives are San Mai carbon core. Tho happy with my stainless Suji. 3040 good home use smaller vegetable cleaver.
> No worries about rust & easy to sharpen. When got it was under 200.00. Cheapest see it these days is 210.00 at JCK.


If you mean that stainless clad white, I have one of those. There are better knives than that one. I meant the larger barrel handle models, both stainless and carbon clad say sold out.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Yeh most of his cleavers are out of stock.


----------



## kpham12

Noodle Soup said:


> Every time anyone mentions this cleaver I always find it sold out. Is it ever available or it just something from the past?


I saw a couple in stock a few weeks ago, someone posted it in the Knife Findings thread. I opened the page and it said there were 3 left and then they were all gone a couple days later. I kind of want to get one to try that wa/barrel handle hybrid, it looks nice.


----------



## blokey

Noodle Soup said:


> Every time anyone mentions this cleaver I always find it sold out. Is it ever available or it just something from the past?


JKI actually got a batch like one month ago but sold out in 1 hour. Best way is sign up for the stock notification.


----------



## wabi

blokey said:


> JKI actually got a batch like one month ago but sold out in 1 hour. Best way is sign up for the stock notification.



I did, I figure that is the only way I will be able to purchase one.


----------



## tostadas

Quick review on the new profile Chopper King "Small Slicer" VG10 from CKTG after 1week of exclusive use:

For a bit over $80 after tax, I'm overall pretty happy with this. VG10 steel holds its edge well without really needing any touch-ups during the week. The grind is nice for its price point. Very thin behind the edge, gentle convex up to the "shinogi" or basically where the sandblasting ends. The first 10mm behind the edge is similar to my CCK1303, but thicker in the middle section of the blade. The chopper king is essentially flat from the shinogi up to the spine, compared to the CCK which is either hollow ground or otherwise indented from hammering. Height at midblade is about the same around 88mm or so, but one big difference between the two is the amount of belly. The Chopper King has more pronounced belly, with about a 6mm difference between midblade and heel/tip, compared to approximately 2mm for my CCK.

The spine is interesting. It's about 4.5mm thick at the handle and tapers for the first 35mm or so down to 1.8mm and remains around that for the remainder of the blade. I think this is to allow for thickness of the tang more than anything else. There's minimal effect on grip since I tend to hold a cleaver much farther forward than other knives.

Fit and finish is OK. Everything is straight, no warps/bends or other weird stuff going on that I noticed. Spine and choil have sharp corners which will definitely benefit from some sandpaper treatment. The sandblasted shinogi does nothing for me. I don't feel like it serves any purpose but also doesn't hinder performance. Handles are a very personal thing, but I hate this kind of super fat handle (32mm dia at widest part). It feels similar to the one on my Shibazi, which was too thick to get a solid grip on the knife with my medium size hands. The wood is listed as maple. One of my favorite wood for handles so I feel like it should be decent quality. But yea, I hate the shape, so I'll either be sanding it down and reshaping, or knocking the whole thing off altogether and replacing it with a custom one.

Overall, for the price, this is a solid lightweight cleaver. Good build, nice steel. A bit on the curvy side for profile, and some minor gripes from me about handle and spine/choil. But otherwise I would not hesitate to recommend it. Oh and there's also a friggn dragon engraved on it which is by itself already worth the price.

PS. Before anyone asks, this blows the Shibazi out of the water. Not even close.


----------



## Desert Rat

Here are a couple of mine for comparison. Vintage meat choppers.
An L& I J White 6" and a Briddell 8". The biddell weighs 2lb 10oz, the White 1lb 6oz.
The lighter cleaver almost out works the bigger one because of the tapered tang putting the weight where it should be. It doesn't look like it would make that much difference but it really does.
Should I come across another heavy cleaver I will be sure it has a tapered tang.






Skinny cleavers for slicing veg, who knew?
Just kidding.

I'm on the fence trying to decide between the Chopper King and the CCK.


----------



## Desert Rat

I ordered a chopper king in white no2 small slicer.
It was a compromise because she likes to rock and my last knife was Moritaka AS bunka. She won't touch the thing, hates it in fact, which is probably why I haven't had to repair the tip. White no2 because I like to sharpen it.


----------



## cotedupy

tostadas said:


> Quick review on the new profile Chopper King "Small Slicer" VG10 from CKTG after 1week of exclusive use:
> 
> For a bit over $80 after tax, I'm overall pretty happy with this. VG10 steel holds its edge well without really needing any touch-ups during the week. The grind is nice for its price point. Very thin behind the edge, gentle convex up to the "shinogi" or basically where the sandblasting ends. The first 10mm behind the edge is similar to my CCK1303, but thicker in the middle section of the blade. The chopper king is essentially flat from the shinogi up to the spine, compared to the CCK which is either hollow ground or otherwise indented from hammering. Height at midblade is about the same around 88mm or so, but one big difference between the two is the amount of belly. The Chopper King has more pronounced belly, with about a 6mm difference between midblade and heel/tip, compared to approximately 2mm for my CCK.
> 
> The spine is interesting. It's about 4.5mm thick at the handle and tapers for the first 35mm or so down to 1.8mm and remains around that for the remainder of the blade. I think this is to allow for thickness of the tang more than anything else. There's minimal effect on grip since I tend to hold a cleaver much farther forward than other knives.
> 
> Fit and finish is OK. Everything is straight, no warps/bends or other weird stuff going on that I noticed. Spine and choil have sharp corners which will definitely benefit from some sandpaper treatment. The sandblasted shinogi does nothing for me. I don't feel like it serves any purpose but also doesn't hinder performance. Handles are a very personal thing, but I hate this kind of super fat handle (32mm dia at widest part). It feels similar to the one on my Shibazi, which was too thick to get a solid grip on the knife with my medium size hands. The wood is listed as maple. One of my favorite wood for handles so I feel like it should be decent quality. But yea, I hate the shape, so I'll either be sanding it down and reshaping, or knocking the whole thing off altogether and replacing it with a custom one.
> 
> Overall, for the price, this is a solid lightweight cleaver. Good build, nice steel. A bit on the curvy side for profile, and some minor gripes from me about handle and spine/choil. But otherwise I would not hesitate to recommend it. Oh and there's also a friggn dragon engraved on it which is by itself already worth the price.
> 
> PS. Before anyone asks, this blows the Shibazi out of the water. Not even close.
> 
> 
> View attachment 179436




Looks pretty smart! F&F seems better than most tbh. Though I'd probably agree with you about the curvy profile - I'm less of a fan of that too.

What grip do you use btw? I've never found the normal, thick cleaver handles to be ott personally.


----------



## tostadas

cotedupy said:


> Looks pretty smart! F&F seems better than most tbh. Though I'd probably agree with you about the curvy profile - I'm less of a fan of that too.
> 
> What grip do you use btw? I've never found the normal, thick cleaver handles to be ott personally.


I generally grip with 3 fingers on the handle, middle finger butted up against the choil, and thumb index as far forward as possible. 

In trying to narrow down what I like and don't like about handles, I found that it's not necessarily the shape or overall size. But one key factor for my comfort is how well my pinky finger can grip. And for a fully round handle of this diameter, it doesn't work for me. Plus, now i have an excuse to make some more custom handles which is fun.


----------



## Desert Rat

cotedupy said:


> Looks pretty smart! F&F seems better than most tbh. Though I'd probably agree with you about the curvy profile - I'm less of a fan of that too.
> 
> What grip do you use btw? I've never found the normal, thick cleaver handles to be ott personally.


 I'm struggling with that much curve to the blade, I'm not as versatile as I thought. She loves it though.

Been wanting to try a nakiri anyway.


----------



## kpham12

I’ve been getting more comfortable with #6 cleavers, less choppy-choppy and more “let the weight do the work” while also adjusting technique to use the belly instead of wishing for a flatter profile and/or getting a ton of accordion cuts, so I thought I’d post my thoughts on my main big 3 carbon cleavers. All have been thinned, tweaked and tested at work doing bulk prep and they all hold up very well.

*Sugimoto #6*: I’ve seen the Sugimoto pop up in a lot of videos of Chinese restaurants in Japan, and for good reason. It’s got the best construction of all the cleavers I’ve tried with the distal taper, rat tail tang and unique handle it has excellent balance and a strong right biased convex grind. Of the three in the video, it’s the lightest (weighs in between 420-430 grams) and feels even lighter than it’s weight in hand, the easiest one to use for an extended period without hand/wrist fatigue. Steel is “pure Japanese ore”, reported to be white 2 by many retailers, although Sugimoto doesn’t officially disclose this. Edge retention is good, comes back to life super easily. I see many restaurants where the Sugimoto is used on circular wooden chopping blocks which are basically like really soft end grain boards which likely prolongs edge life. Although pretty thin BTE, the convexity fattens it up quickly above the very edge for food release. After a touch of thinning, the balance between food release and cutting feel is probably the best of the three. If you look at the front end, it doesn’t look the thinnest, but it does horizontal cuts on an onion smoothly and vertical cuts surprisingly fast.

Cons are the F&F is pretty rough, there’s a good sized low spot in the middle of on the right side that seems pretty common with Sugimoto and the grind has some facets in it OOTB that doesn’t affect performance, but it’s annoying considering how much these are retailing for nowadays. Still, it’s the one I would choose for extended use and a must try cleaver in my book.

*Togashi #6*: The Togashi was purchased as a mystery cleaver off eBay for a great price due to a bunch of chips and rust spots. Original owner got it from a store in Tsukiji a few years ago. I fixed the chips and cleaned up the surface rust and got an ID on the maker. It has the same specs as this cleaver here, but about 10 grams lighter:
Hitohira Togashi White #2 Chinese Cleaver 220mm Gumi Wood Handle (#7)
Of the three, it’s the thinnest BTE, even before I fixed the chips. You can see the geometry from the cleaver in the link, it’s got nice right handed convexity and a slight S-grind above the convex that helps with food release, especially after you get a patina on the whole thing. A little heavy due to the full tang compared to the Sugimoto, but the steel is the star here. White 2 that takes a downright nasty edge and holds its bite well, similar to Munetoshi in that regard. Feels very “sandy”on the stones I’ve tried it on and you can take the refinement pretty high. Overall retention is nice, especially considering the Togashi weighs in at about 470 grams. Makes me want to try a Togashi honyaki or one of his white #1 cleavers. Could use a little more thinning higher up because I lost a little height doing the chip repairs. And the front end is prone to some microchipping due to thinness+hardness+weight, but the chips are tiny and don’t affect performance. The handle does tend to get dirty easily though, even with mineral oil application. Need to give it a deep clean and maybe a layer of lacquer or varnish or something.

*Suien VC*: Value wise, this thing is undefeated. $160, $170 with shipping, it hasn’t gone up in price for years and punches way above its price point quality wise, a long time forum favorite. The two big knocks against the Suien are the belly in the profile and the thickness OOTB. I think the belly looks a little worse in pictures and it can be tweaked on the stones while you’re thinning and with adjusting your technique a little. OOTB, the Suien has a horrible, obtuse chisel grind that crushes food instead of cutting it. But if you put in the work thinning, you can really get the steel to sing. The “VC” steel is reportedly Takefu V2 (unconfirmed I think, but that’s the consensus) and it takes the “stickiest” edge out of the three. Better retention than the Sugimoto and not as hard as the Togashi, although not chippy, plus it’s monosteel which feels nice hitting the board. After thinning, geometry wise, it’s close to the Togashi but slightly less convex. It’s the smoothest cutter out of the three, but I prefer the cutting feel of the Sugimoto just a bit, but I’m also a weirdo so take that how you will. More nimble than the Togashi, but not quite as maneuverable as the Sugimoto. Handle is on the slim side and has a protective glossy coating, very comfortable. Still can’t believe Suien makes a profit selling this cleaver for less than half the retail price of either of the other two, but I’m not complaining.

Now someone send me a Mazaki cleaver to try, please and thank you.


----------



## demirtasem

kpham12 said:


> Still can’t believe Suien makes a profit selling this cleaver for less than half the retail price of either of the other two, but I’m not complaining.



Thanks for sharing. I’m currently on the market for ba Suien. But Koki said they are discontinuin cleavers because their craftsman got retired.


----------



## kpham12

demirtasem said:


> Thanks for sharing. I’m currently on the market for ba Suien. But Koki said they are discontinuin cleavers because their craftsman got retired.


Bummer, I was wondering why they’ve been out of stock for so long. Did Koki mention that it’s just a single craftsman that makes the VC cleaver?


----------



## demirtasem

kpham12 said:


> Bummer, I was wondering why they’ve been out of stock for so long. Did Koki mention that it’s just a single craftsman that makes the VC cleaver?


He didn’t mention that but he hopes its a temporary thing.


----------



## kpham12

demirtasem said:


> He didn’t mention that but he hopes its a temporary thing.


Hope so, they’ve been making them for over a decade at least


----------



## demirtasem

kpham12 said:


> Hope so, they’ve been making them for over a decade at least



I have a question for you actually. How would you compare your Chopper King with them. It may be hard to compare an Aus10 with them but at least profile wise is it close to Suien? Did you do any adjustments on it in the mean time?


----------



## kpham12

demirtasem said:


> I have a question for you actually. How would you compare your Chopper King with them. It may be hard to compare an Aus10 with them but at least profile wise is it close to Suien? Did you do any adjustments on it in the mean time?


The Chopper King is closest to the Togashi. If you see me put the Togashi on the board right before I cut the apple with it, you can see how it kind of rolls from the front to the heel, same with the Chopper King. Flattish front end for push cutting and the weight naturally causes the cleaver to kind of roll to the heel so you’re less likely to get accordion cuts. The Suien OOTB has a more even curve the whole way through. I actually took out a little bit of the belly in the middle while I was thinning it so the transition from front to back was smoother, otherwise it was a little too curved. I haven’t modified the Chopper King except my initial thinning, convexing and sanding down that sandblasted finish to reduce friction. It’s the thinnest overall grind of the three, but the flattest “bevels” so stiction and initial food release is the worst, but once you get past that with the slight thinning/convexing/sanding which shouldn’t take more than 1-2 hours all in, it’s a naturally good cutter just on principle of being thin. And the AUS10 noticeably doesn’t get as sharp as the other three, but I just put a 1-2K edge on it and I get good mileage out of it. Great beater/loaner cleaver, fun to use and excellent value for your money.


----------



## demirtasem

Thank you for detailed explanation!


----------



## cotedupy

tostadas said:


> I generally grip with 3 fingers on the handle, middle finger butted up against the choil, and thumb index as far forward as possible.
> 
> In trying to narrow down what I like and don't like about handles, I found that it's not necessarily the shape or overall size. But one key factor for my comfort is how well my pinky finger can grip. And for a fully round handle of this diameter, it doesn't work for me. Plus, now i have an excuse to make some more custom handles which is fun.




Have you tried a two finger pinch grip? For me this is pretty much essential to what makes caidao so versatile. And the reason that larger (taller) knives are easier to use than smaller ones.


----------



## natto

I got a stack of cheap cleavers. But me looking for the right cleaver was just an illusion.

It's the cleaver, telling me how to grip- and how to cut.


----------



## tostadas

cotedupy said:


> Have you tried a two finger pinch grip? For me this is pretty much essential to what makes caidao so versatile. And the reason that larger (taller) knives are easier to use than smaller ones.


I assume you mean thumb+index+middle finger. I switch between that and an extended pinch grip with just index+thumb. I prefer to have 3 fingers on the handle if possible, but for very blade forward knives, shifting the grip farther forward towards the balance pt helps when I get tired. 

I fully agree that the taller knives are nice because it allows the option to straighten your fingers on the blade without risking getting too close to the edge.


----------



## blokey

Anyone saw this? Lmao this is one hell of a monster









Trade In Sakai Takayuki Heavy Chuka Bocho San Mai Carbon Steel 1970's-


Barely used, was new old stock from BC several years ago and buyer rarely used it so it came back as a trade in Hand forged in the 1970's or 80's this thick heavy knife was designed for butchery applications. This is an unusual style of Chukka Bocho that hasn't been made in decades and...




bernalcutlery.com


----------



## tostadas

Had to take some more pics cuz I like this new one so much. (sorry @BillHanna )


----------



## Jville

tostadas said:


> Had to take some more pics cuz I like this new one so much. (sorry @BillHanna )
> View attachment 182453


Who is the maker? Looks nice!


----------



## tostadas

Jville said:


> Who is the maker? Looks nice!


Fellipi Porto, a talented maker from Brazil.


----------



## natto

tostadas said:


> Fellipi Porto, a talented maker from Brazil.


looks good and balanced.


----------



## Jville

tostadas said:


> Fellipi Porto, a talented maker from Brazil.


I thought that who it might be. I got a cleaver coming from him also. How you liking it?


----------



## tostadas

Jville said:


> I thought that who it might be. I got a cleaver coming from him also. How you liking it?


I only had a chance to use it briefly yesterday but it was even nicer than I expected. I asked for a lightweight 210x90 with a target of approx 300g and a laser grind. And provided just some guidelines for spine and handle preference. He delivered exactly what I envisioned, and was very easy to work with.

What is he making for you?


----------



## Jville

tostadas said:


> I only had a chance to use it briefly yesterday but it was even nicer than I expected. I asked for a lightweight 210x90 with a target of approx 300g and a laser grind. And provided just some guidelines for spine and handle preference. He delivered exactly what I envisioned, and was very easy to work with.
> 
> What is he making for you?


A very similar in specs cleaver and also laser grind. I’m looking forward to it.


----------



## cooktocut

Jville said:


> A very similar in specs cleaver and also laser grind. I’m looking forward to it.


Ah, so you’re building the collection before you post it. I feel that.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

natto said:


> looks good and balanced.


i'm no expert, but i dont understand this. i look at that wonderful cleaver and i cant see "balance". hell, i cant feel balance in any cleaver.


----------



## cooktocut

boomchakabowwow said:


> hell, i cant feel balance in any cleaver.


Gotta up your cleaver game my man. Cleaver balance done right is made that much more impressive because of how big they are.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

cooktocut said:


> Gotta up your cleaver game my man. Cleaver balance done right is made that much more impressive because of how big they are.


can you explain? 80% of the tool, and the steel part is way out front. the handle is tiny by comparision. my CCK 1303 is front heavy just due to physics. what am i missing here?


----------



## tostadas

boomchakabowwow said:


> can you explain? 80% of the tool, and the steel part is way out front. the handle is tiny by comparision. my CCK 1303 is front heavy just due to physics. what am i missing here?


You are right, cleavers are generally blade heavy. You therefore can hold a cleaver farther forward than a gyuto. Balance point for most of mine tend to be around 60mm in front of the handle. A nice thing about having such a big blade is that you can achieve the weight of a "workhorse" gyuto while having a super thin blade. So think laser performance, but significantly more weight to let the knife do the work for you.

Some numbers to put things in perspective, CCK is a very lightweight, super thin cleaver at around 250g, and 210mm length. If you had a 240mm gyuto of the same weight, it would be on the fatter side. So you get a compact, high performing knife, but with improved mass.


----------



## 4wa1l

I've been eyeing this iron clad shirogami 2 Togashi for a while after I originally got a couple of Leung Tim cleavers for myself and a friend (posted way earlier in this thread). My example needed more work than I was willing to put in so I passed it on. Still had the itch to try another full size cleaver but with better f+f. Hadn't seen much real world feedback on these until kpham's write up. That and a sale price tipped me over the edge.

It needs a proper edge and some smoothing of the spine and choil but otherwise it feels pretty nice. Just given it a quick test so far but will add some more thoughts later on.






Also funny reading back to the first pages of this thread seeing @BillHanna question whether he is a cleaver guy ha.


----------



## BillHanna

A journey of self discovery.


----------



## kpham12

4wa1l said:


> I've been eyeing this iron clad shirogami 2 Togashi for a while after I originally got a couple of Leung Tim cleavers for myself and a friend (posted way earlier in this thread). My example needed more work than I was willing to put in so I passed it on. Still had the itch to try another full size cleaver but with better f+f. Hadn't seen much real world feedback on these until kpham's write up. That and a sale price tipped me over the edge.
> 
> It needs a proper edge and some smoothing of the spine and choil but otherwise it feels pretty nice. Just given it a quick test so far but will add some more thoughts later on.
> 
> View attachment 183644
> 
> 
> Also funny reading back to the first pages of this thread seeing @BillHanna question whether he is a cleaver guy ha.


Looks pretty sweet. The major disadvantage of buying used cleavers and fixing them up is I never get to use them brand new. Look forward to hearing your thoughts on it.


----------



## 4wa1l

kpham12 said:


> Looks pretty sweet. The major disadvantage of buying used cleavers and fixing them up is I never get to use them brand new. Look forward to hearing your thoughts on it.



I think my thoughts are probably pretty similar to what you've posted previously. Hopefully people can make sense of my ramblings below...

*Pros:* The steel! It is decently hard, easy to sharpen and actually holds a good edge for shirogami in my opinion. I've also been pretty rough and gone straight for pumpkins and generally thwacked it into the board when I've gotten a bit enthusiastic and it's held up fine. I've been sharpening more to play around and get a feel for how it sharpens but it really hasn't needed it. The steel and cladding are reactive but nothing unusual for an iron clad knife.

The overall geometry is pretty nice. Only some wedging on the proper dense stuff like pumpkins and hard sweet potato. Seems like it has some very slight convex on the primary bevel. Food sticks a bit especially when slicing and dicing finer but I think that's pretty par for the course with a cleaver.

The height and weight are positives too and feel more natural than I would've thought. I like bigger nakiris and this feels familiar enough. I'm still learning to let the weight do the work but I don't find it a workout using it as a home cook. The edge has a very slight curve which allows for a slight rock even when push cutting which is fairly natural movement for me. The height of the blade is also awesome for the ability to just scoop up everything and transfer. Having a proper tip/corner is nice too.

*Cons:* There is only one major con imo and that is with the fit and finish. I'm not talking super rough f+f and there are no glaring faults or anything that really degrades the performance but for the price I feel it should be better. No rounded choil or spine and even some small stray bits of metal on the front end. Easy to fix with some sandpaper but def could be better (still need to do more work here). The edge itself is also very slightly curved. When cutting it's not not noticeable and I only realised when I was scooping something off a very warped board with the edge and board combined making a gap in the centre.







Just some random thoughts to add on here. I think the taped fake shinogi looked very average and have used some sandpaper to blend it into the rest of the blade. The real bevel actually starts lower down and at some stage I will probably thin and raise it up to give some better performance when cutting dense veg. I've also dirtied the handle through use and sharpening. This was probably inevitable over time but the light wood looked pretty nice when new and clean. Should probably give it a bit of an oil too. Feels like it has some texture now and really good in hand though.

Overall though the steel and shape/geo are the main selling points and I hate how much I like this. I've barely touched my big gyutos since owning it. It feels solid in a good way and I can use it easily on a smaller board as it's shorter than a 240 gyuto. Again I love it but at rrp it doesn't get full marks. I've seen the Sakai Kikumori Gokujyo cleaver which looks to have better fit and finish from online pics. If the steel and geometry are as good as this then it may be a better buy for a higher end Japanese cleaver for the price.


----------



## kpham12

4wa1l said:


> I think my thoughts are probably pretty similar to what you've posted previously. Hopefully people can make sense of my ramblings below...
> 
> *Pros:* The steel! It is decently hard, easy to sharpen and actually holds a good edge for shirogami in my opinion. I've also been pretty rough and gone straight for pumpkins and generally thwacked it into the board when I've gotten a bit enthusiastic and it's held up fine. I've been sharpening more to play around and get a feel for how it sharpens but it really hasn't needed it. The steel and cladding are reactive but nothing unusual for an iron clad knife.
> 
> The overall geometry is pretty nice. Only some wedging on the proper dense stuff like pumpkins and hard sweet potato. Seems like it has some very slight convex on the primary bevel. Food sticks a bit especially when slicing and dicing finer but I think that's pretty par for the course with a cleaver.
> 
> The height and weight are positives too and feel more natural than I would've thought. I like bigger nakiris and this feels familiar enough. I'm still learning to let the weight do the work but I don't find it a workout using it as a home cook. The edge has a very slight curve which allows for a slight rock even when push cutting which is fairly natural movement for me. The height of the blade is also awesome for the ability to just scoop up everything and transfer. Having a proper tip/corner is nice too.
> 
> *Cons:* There is only one major con imo and that is with the fit and finish. I'm not talking super rough f+f and there are no glaring faults or anything that really degrades the performance but for the price I feel it should be better. No rounded choil or spine and even some small stray bits of metal on the front end. Easy to fix with some sandpaper but def could be better (still need to do more work here). The edge itself is also very slightly curved. When cutting it's not not noticeable and I only realised when I was scooping something off a very warped board with the edge and board combined making a gap in the centre.
> 
> View attachment 186203
> 
> 
> Just some random thoughts to add on here. I think the taped fake shinogi looked very average and have used some sandpaper to blend it into the rest of the blade. The real bevel actually starts lower down and at some stage I will probably thin and raise it up to give some better performance when cutting dense veg. I've also dirtied the handle through use and sharpening. This was probably inevitable over time but the light wood looked pretty nice when new and clean. Should probably give it a bit of an oil too. Feels like it has some texture now and really good in hand though.
> 
> Overall though the steel and shape/geo are the main selling points and I hate how much I like this. I've barely touched my big gyutos since owning it. It feels solid in a good way and I can use it easily on a smaller board as it's shorter than a 240 gyuto. Again I love it but at rrp it doesn't get full marks. I've seen the Sakai Kikumori Gokujyo cleaver which looks to have better fit and finish from online pics. If the steel and geometry are as good as this then it may be a better buy for a higher end Japanese cleaver for the price.


Yup, grind and steel is pretty nice, could use a little thinning higher up the grind at the “shoulder” to make cutting through really big dense product a little smoother.

The fit and finish on all these cleavers is usually pretty meh, even the pricier ones. Migoto cleavers look good and Konosuke cleavers probably have nice f&f, but even then, I wouldn’t expect it to be on the level of one of their gyutos.

I also like the look of the wood used for the handle, but it does get dirty pretty easily, like ho wood. I’ve found oil doesn’t actually help much, might need a layer of varnish or lacquer to really seal it.



anko said:


> Been using this Sakai Kikumori Gokujyo, purchased from Miura, for home meal prep last few months. W2, 220x110, 470g. I've spent an hour on it with a Gesshin 220 trying to make it cut overgrown dense winter root vegetables better, followed by a lazy refinish. Great service from Miura and I really enjoy the knife, right combo of edge profile / weight / aesthetics for me.
> View attachment 120311
> View attachment 120312


@anko, how’s this Gokujyo cleaver been holding up? Looks like a nice cutter after thinning.


----------



## deltaplex

kpham12 said:


> Yup, grind and steel is pretty nice, could use a little thinning higher up the grind at the “shoulder” to make cutting through really big dense product a little smoother.
> 
> The fit and finish on all these cleavers is usually pretty meh, even the pricier ones. Migoto cleavers look good and Konosuke cleavers probably have nice f&f, but even then, I wouldn’t expect it to be on the level of one of their gyutos.
> 
> I also like the look of the wood used for the handle, but it does get dirty pretty easily, like ho wood. I’ve found oil doesn’t actually help much, might need a layer of varnish or lacquer to really seal it.
> 
> 
> @anko, how’s this Gokujyo cleaver been holding up? Looks like a nice cutter after thinning.


I think if you used a hardening oil, like Tung (tru-oil, etc.), that you'd see a significant improvement in it's ability to stay clean.


----------



## kpham12

deltaplex said:


> I think if you used a hardening oil, like Tung (tru-oil, etc.), that you'd see a significant improvement in it's ability to stay clean.


Is it an improvement over just regular mineral oil?


----------



## tostadas

4wa1l said:


> I think my thoughts are probably pretty similar to what you've posted previously. Hopefully people can make sense of my ramblings below...
> 
> *Pros:* The steel! It is decently hard, easy to sharpen and actually holds a good edge for shirogami in my opinion. I've also been pretty rough and gone straight for pumpkins and generally thwacked it into the board when I've gotten a bit enthusiastic and it's held up fine. I've been sharpening more to play around and get a feel for how it sharpens but it really hasn't needed it. The steel and cladding are reactive but nothing unusual for an iron clad knife.
> 
> The overall geometry is pretty nice. Only some wedging on the proper dense stuff like pumpkins and hard sweet potato. Seems like it has some very slight convex on the primary bevel. Food sticks a bit especially when slicing and dicing finer but I think that's pretty par for the course with a cleaver.
> 
> The height and weight are positives too and feel more natural than I would've thought. I like bigger nakiris and this feels familiar enough. I'm still learning to let the weight do the work but I don't find it a workout using it as a home cook. The edge has a very slight curve which allows for a slight rock even when push cutting which is fairly natural movement for me. The height of the blade is also awesome for the ability to just scoop up everything and transfer. Having a proper tip/corner is nice too.
> 
> *Cons:* There is only one major con imo and that is with the fit and finish. I'm not talking super rough f+f and there are no glaring faults or anything that really degrades the performance but for the price I feel it should be better. No rounded choil or spine and even some small stray bits of metal on the front end. Easy to fix with some sandpaper but def could be better (still need to do more work here). The edge itself is also very slightly curved. When cutting it's not not noticeable and I only realised when I was scooping something off a very warped board with the edge and board combined making a gap in the centre.
> 
> View attachment 186203
> 
> 
> Just some random thoughts to add on here. I think the taped fake shinogi looked very average and have used some sandpaper to blend it into the rest of the blade. The real bevel actually starts lower down and at some stage I will probably thin and raise it up to give some better performance when cutting dense veg. I've also dirtied the handle through use and sharpening. This was probably inevitable over time but the light wood looked pretty nice when new and clean. Should probably give it a bit of an oil too. Feels like it has some texture now and really good in hand though.
> 
> Overall though the steel and shape/geo are the main selling points and I hate how much I like this. I've barely touched my big gyutos since owning it. It feels solid in a good way and I can use it easily on a smaller board as it's shorter than a 240 gyuto. Again I love it but at rrp it doesn't get full marks. I've seen the Sakai Kikumori Gokujyo cleaver which looks to have better fit and finish from online pics. If the steel and geometry are as good as this then it may be a better buy for a higher end Japanese cleaver for the price.


Tru oil or lacquer will seal it but can feel plasticky. Tung oil is a nice option, or my personal favorite is hardwax oil, both of which will give protection but also retain the texture of the wood


----------



## tostadas

kpham12 said:


> Is it an improvement over just regular mineral oil?


Yes if you're looking for a drying oil. Mineral oil never really dries


----------



## deltaplex

As said above: yes it's a significant improvement; I use tung to finish all of mine at the moment.


----------



## anko

kpham12 said:


> @anko, how’s this Gokujyo cleaver been holding up? Looks like a nice cutter after thinning.


Still my daily knife, still very happy with it.


----------



## kpham12

anko said:


> Still my daily knife, still very happy with it.
> View attachment 186376


Love to see a well used cleaver. Nice cladding line


----------



## wrussell92

4wa1l said:


> I think my thoughts are probably pretty similar to what you've posted previously. Hopefully people can make sense of my ramblings below...
> 
> *Pros:* The steel! It is decently hard, easy to sharpen and actually holds a good edge for shirogami in my opinion. I've also been pretty rough and gone straight for pumpkins and generally thwacked it into the board when I've gotten a bit enthusiastic and it's held up fine. I've been sharpening more to play around and get a feel for how it sharpens but it really hasn't needed it. The steel and cladding are reactive but nothing unusual for an iron clad knife.
> 
> The overall geometry is pretty nice. Only some wedging on the proper dense stuff like pumpkins and hard sweet potato. Seems like it has some very slight convex on the primary bevel. Food sticks a bit especially when slicing and dicing finer but I think that's pretty par for the course with a cleaver.
> 
> The height and weight are positives too and feel more natural than I would've thought. I like bigger nakiris and this feels familiar enough. I'm still learning to let the weight do the work but I don't find it a workout using it as a home cook. The edge has a very slight curve which allows for a slight rock even when push cutting which is fairly natural movement for me. The height of the blade is also awesome for the ability to just scoop up everything and transfer. Having a proper tip/corner is nice too.
> 
> *Cons:* There is only one major con imo and that is with the fit and finish. I'm not talking super rough f+f and there are no glaring faults or anything that really degrades the performance but for the price I feel it should be better. No rounded choil or spine and even some small stray bits of metal on the front end. Easy to fix with some sandpaper but def could be better (still need to do more work here). The edge itself is also very slightly curved. When cutting it's not not noticeable and I only realised when I was scooping something off a very warped board with the edge and board combined making a gap in the centre.
> 
> View attachment 186203
> 
> 
> Just some random thoughts to add on here. I think the taped fake shinogi looked very average and have used some sandpaper to blend it into the rest of the blade. The real bevel actually starts lower down and at some stage I will probably thin and raise it up to give some better performance when cutting dense veg. I've also dirtied the handle through use and sharpening. This was probably inevitable over time but the light wood looked pretty nice when new and clean. Should probably give it a bit of an oil too. Feels like it has some texture now and really good in hand though.
> 
> Overall though the steel and shape/geo are the main selling points and I hate how much I like this. I've barely touched my big gyutos since owning it. It feels solid in a good way and I can use it easily on a smaller board as it's shorter than a 240 gyuto. Again I love it but at rrp it doesn't get full marks. I've seen the Sakai Kikumori Gokujyo cleaver which looks to have better fit and finish from online pics. If the steel and geometry are as good as this then it may be a better buy for a higher end Japanese cleaver for the price.


Interesting since the wa-handled version appears to address most of these things. Check out the choil! Tempting…


----------



## Jville

wrussell92 said:


> Interesting since the wa-handled version appears to address most of these things. Check out the choil! Tempting… View attachment 187789


The F&F on my wa handled migoto is stellar.


----------



## cotedupy

- Do you like Chinese cleavers?

- _Why yes, this *is* the cleaver thread isn't it?_

- Touche. But what of the handles? Do you admire their stark functionality?

- _I do!_

- But despair of their plain and ugly looks?

- _Yes, that's me!!_

- And don't want to faff around trying to make your own?

- _NO. HARD WORK. BOOO!!!_

- Well then, buckle in. For I am here to help...



I've made quite a few handles for Cai dao before; it isn't desperately difficult to knock the old one off, snap a bit of the tang off, and make a new handle in whatever shape or style you want. Here's a nice one on a 1302:








But not everybody will have the kit or inclination to do that. And I only do it on slicing cleavers, as bone cleavers might exert too much shock force on a hidden tang handle like that. So things like my Kau kong still have their boring light wood handles, in the picture below I've given it a quick coarse sanding:







What I'm about to do that isn't new or revolutionary in any way - people do it to wood all the time, including I'm sure many people here. But this is the first time I've tried it, and I think it's worked quite well for very little effort. I'm going to 'ebonize' it; which is a reaction between iron acetate and tannin, turning it darker, you can actually make it almost black depending on the type of wood and its tannin content.

To make iron acetate we're going to use these things which everybody has a packet of under the sink, but never uses because they're nasty and little bits of metal get everywhere:







I kinda pulled a couple apart to get rid of the pink soap bit, which probably wouldn't help, and then cover in white vinegar, leave for a few days or a week, and chemistry happens. You can speed chemistry up by heating stuff - if you simmered them together it'd probably only take a couple of hours, but the smell of boiling vinegar isn't very nice:







Then you just brush it on your wood really, but there are a number of ways you can increase the effect beforehand if you want. Tannins are in a lot of natural products; leaves, wood, and the skins of fruit in particular, it's the stuff that makes your mouth go dry when drinking heavy red wine, or strong tea. So if we do something like this:







Then we can soak some of the tea tannins into the handle first, before applying the vinegar x steel wool iron acetate solution. Bit of banana skin or walnut shell in that cup of tea would probably ramp it up further. Red wine would work too, and doesn't make the handle red.

Anyhow, at the end of it... nothing happened. So I concluded I'd done something wrong, threw away my vinegar and steel wool mixture (stupidly), and went off to watch the rugby. Coming back to it at half time though - it had actually worked, and I think quite well. It certainly looks better than before, and the fact that a chinese cleaver handle is round means that the grain on the wood gives you kinda cool wavy-circular patterns too:

















So that's how to ebonize stuff. And I'm sure if anyone else tries they'll probably get far better results than my first effort here. But I quite like it, and will be doing again soon I think.


----------



## cotedupy

After my ebonizing victory above I've been doing a little bit of work on that knife. Because a Kau Kong I think, has the potential to be pretty much perfect: The cleaver in the mind of god. But first it needs tweaking because god, as you can imagine, has _very _exacting standards...

The spine is 'only' 7mm or so going out of the handle:







With little distal taper, and height from about 10cm at the heel up to around 12cm at the end/tip, which makes it very forward balanced. The grind was a proper thick bone cleaver grind, which is all I've used it for to date, and it didn't get particularly sharp. But the height means it could potentially be held with an extended pinch grip in the way that you would a slicing cleaver. I'm not going to try to make it a true slicer; I still want it going through bones as a chopper, just a bit more general purpose, like you see in Chinese restaurant kitchens.

So I'm going to thin it differentially, only slightly at the heel, and moreso as it goes down to the tip. We've got; Norton Crystolon Coarse n Fine, Shapton Pro 220, Glass 500, and a Washita:







The SP220 btw is a really superb stone, I picked it up off BST recently because someone was selling some atoma sheets I wanted and had that as well. I'm surprised they don't get more love, I actually ended up using that more than the Crystolon.

The thinning revealed something interesting, to me anyway:







Whether they're thicker for bones, or thinner for slicing; in my experience most Chinese cleavers do _not _have this kind of complex grind. They basically go straight down to an edge, whereas this has a noticeable proper bevel.

As I say - I'm not trying to make it hyper thin, just knock some of the fatness out as it approaches the tip. The heel I've touched up a bit:







Tapering down to this at the end:







That's off the 220 stone. I'll do a little more on the 500, tidy it up with some sandpaper, and then put a Washita edge on it. If it all works out I shall post some pics, and possibly a video of the results...


----------



## cotedupy

Tried putting a quick edge on God's Own Cleaver, for a run out at dinner.

This Washita is a strong candidate for the best whetstone I've ever used, it's frighteningly good. So while I'm pretty happy with the garlic, ginger and veg prep slicing performance, I'm not necessarily surprised.












Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## cotedupy

(Just watched that video back... and I also think my cleaver knife skillz were on fire this evening! For me anyway.)


----------



## Xunzi

I need to buy more bone so I can justify a cleaver...


----------



## cotedupy

Here's my end result then, and it's worked out pretty much exactly as I hoped it would. Hopefully you can see in the vid above that the front half of the knife is happily fine enough for slicing prep. Whereas down at the heel I didn't do too much work, so should still be fine for poultry and pork bones. I can see myself using this knife a fair bit, I was quite impressed with its performance last night.

This is my final front end choil shot:







And here with the CCK Rhino which I also ebonized the handle of yesterday. Slightly dreary weather here today, but they look quite cool in person:


----------



## cotedupy

And seeing as I had those two out already, here’s a family shot as it currently stands:


----------



## Noodle Soup

cotedupy said:


> And seeing as I had those two out already, here’s a family shot as it currently stands:
> 
> View attachment 188174


Is the top knife Viet?


----------



## deltaplex

cotedupy said:


> And seeing as I had those two out already, here’s a family shot as it currently stands:
> 
> View attachment 188174


Yeah, how do you find that leaf spring chopper in use?


----------



## cotedupy

Noodle Soup said:


> Is the top knife Viet?



It is yep, good eye! Someone here got in Vietnam about 20 years ago, and gave it to me recently, which was very nice of him .




deltaplex said:


> Yeah, how do you find that leaf spring chopper in use?



Err... kinda like a small machete! Takes a pretty reasonable edge, We mostly use it for hacking up pork bones n stuff - it's about the thickness of the Kau Kong before I thinned the front.

So that’s a leaf spring is it...?


----------



## Noodle Soup

cotedupy said:


> It is yep, good eye! Someone here got in Vietnam about 20 years ago, and gave it to me recently, which was very nice of him .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Err... kinda like a small machete! Takes a pretty reasonable edge, We mostly use it for hacking up pork bones n stuff - it's about the thickness of the Kau Kong before I thinned the front.
> 
> So that’s a leaf spring is it...?


 I have several in different weights I bought in Ho Chi Min a few years ago but I have never really used them for much.


----------



## stringer

cotedupy said:


> It is yep, good eye! Someone here got in Vietnam about 20 years ago, and gave it to me recently, which was very nice of him .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Err... kinda like a small machete! Takes a pretty reasonable edge, We mostly use it for hacking up pork bones n stuff - it's about the thickness of the Kau Kong before I thinned the front.
> 
> So that’s a leaf spring is it...?


I have one of these too. I'll have to see if I can find it. A buddy who was really into knives had to give it up to start breeding and gave me a bunch of random stuff including one of these Asian machete things. I've never done anything with it.


----------



## 4wa1l

Chinese cleaver knife | WATANABE BLADE


Hand forged Chinese cleaver, blue steel with a custom handle.




www.kitchen-knife.jp





Something a bit different from Watanabe. A few new white #1 cleavers up on his site. I haven't seen them (or any knives) from him in this steel before.


----------



## tostadas

4wa1l said:


> Chinese cleaver knife | WATANABE BLADE
> 
> 
> Hand forged Chinese cleaver, blue steel with a custom handle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchen-knife.jp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something a bit different from Watanabe. A few new white #1 cleavers up on his site. I haven't seen them (or any knives) from him in this steel before.


I really want to try a watanabe cleaver, but those handles eww


----------



## spaceconvoy

hand forged perfect rectangles all the exact same thickness


----------



## cotedupy

spaceconvoy said:


> hand forged perfect rectangles all the exact same thickness




Why yes! One can’t turn a pneumatic hammer and angle grinder on or off without one’s hands


----------



## Luftmensch

cotedupy said:


> - Do you like Chinese cleavers?
> 
> - _Why yes, this *is* the cleaver thread isn't it?_
> 
> - Touche. But what of the handles? Do you admire their stark functionality?
> 
> - _I do!_
> 
> - But despair of their plain and ugly looks?
> 
> - _Yes, that's me!!_
> 
> - And don't want to faff around trying to make your own?
> 
> - _NO. HARD WORK. BOOO!!!_
> 
> - Well then, buckle in. For I am here to help...
> 
> 
> 
> I've made quite a few handles for Cai dao before; it isn't desperately difficult to knock the old one off, snap a bit of the tang off, and make a new handle in whatever shape or style you want. Here's a nice one on a 1302:
> 
> View attachment 187874
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But not everybody will have the kit or inclination to do that. And I only do it on slicing cleavers, as bone cleavers might exert too much shock force on a hidden tang handle like that. So things like my Kau kong still have their boring light wood handles, in the picture below I've given it a quick coarse sanding:
> 
> View attachment 187873
> 
> 
> 
> What I'm about to do that isn't new or revolutionary in any way - people do it to wood all the time, including I'm sure many people here. But this is the first time I've tried it, and I think it's worked quite well for very little effort. I'm going to 'ebonize' it; which is a reaction between iron acetate and tannin, turning it darker, you can actually make it almost black depending on the type of wood and its tannin content.
> 
> To make iron acetate we're going to use these things which everybody has a packet of under the sink, but never uses because they're nasty and little bits of metal get everywhere:
> 
> View attachment 187879
> 
> 
> 
> I kinda pulled a couple apart to get rid of the pink soap bit, which probably wouldn't help, and then cover in white vinegar, leave for a few days or a week, and chemistry happens. You can speed chemistry up by heating stuff - if you simmered them together it'd probably only take a couple of hours, but the smell of boiling vinegar isn't very nice:
> 
> View attachment 187880
> 
> 
> 
> Then you just brush it on your wood really, but there are a number of ways you can increase the effect beforehand if you want. Tannins are in a lot of natural products; leaves, wood, and the skins of fruit in particular, it's the stuff that makes your mouth go dry when drinking heavy red wine, or strong tea. So if we do something like this:
> 
> View attachment 187878
> 
> 
> 
> Then we can soak some of the tea tannins into the handle first, before applying the vinegar x steel wool iron acetate solution. Bit of banana skin or walnut shell in that cup of tea would probably ramp it up further. Red wine would work too, and doesn't make the handle red.
> 
> Anyhow, at the end of it... nothing happened. So I concluded I'd done something wrong, threw away my vinegar and steel wool mixture (stupidly), and went off to watch the rugby. Coming back to it at half time though - it had actually worked, and I think quite well. It certainly looks better than before, and the fact that a chinese cleaver handle is round means that the grain on the wood gives you kinda cool wavy-circular patterns too:
> 
> View attachment 187877
> 
> 
> View attachment 187875
> 
> 
> View attachment 187876
> 
> 
> 
> So that's how to ebonize stuff. And I'm sure if anyone else tries they'll probably get far better results than my first effort here. But I quite like it, and will be doing again soon I think.



Nice post! 

By-the-by... the leather crafting community call this dye "vinegaroon".... 

I like that word... Kind of makes me think of the wild west. That might not be a good thing, given I am probably thinking about spittoons... Though... I imagine those would also contain some hellava nasty 'natural' brown staining liquids


----------



## wabi

Of those Watanabe cleavers..handles be dammed, if i had not just taken delivery of a Sugimoto cleaver, I would be on it like a frog on a june bug. Watanabe's work is just wonderful...and if the nakiri is anything like his cleaver...it will be a joy to cut with.


----------



## cotedupy

Luftmensch said:


> Nice post!
> 
> By-the-by... the leather crafting community call this dye "vinegaroon"....
> 
> I like that word... Kind of makes me think of the wild west. That might not be a good thing, given I am probably thinking about spittoons... Though... I imagine those would also contain some hellava nasty 'natural' brown staining liquids




It is a good word! Made even better I think if you slip into a Scottish accent. In the same way that 'motorbike' should really be in Geordie, and it's basically imperative to do 'ratatouille' in Welsh.


----------



## Greasylake

Luftmensch said:


> I like that word... Kind of makes me think of the wild west. That might not be a good thing, given I am probably thinking about spittoons... Though... I imagine those would also contain some hellava nasty 'natural' brown staining liquids



When you say vinegaroon, this is what I think of. Neat little dudes, they spray acid that smells like vinegar, hence their name.


----------



## anko

4wa1l said:


> Chinese cleaver knife | WATANABE BLADE
> 
> 
> Hand forged Chinese cleaver, blue steel with a custom handle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchen-knife.jp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something a bit different from Watanabe. A few new white #1 cleavers up on his site. I haven't seen them (or any knives) from him in this steel before.


Anybody know how he is doing the KU on these? The orange handle for example, looks like the process is scrub random parts of it with steel wool and let water sit on it overnight?


----------



## drrayeye

Until we begin to consider the many cleavers on AliExpress, these discussions get pretty predicable. Dissatisfied with the usual suspects here, I purchased a Shibazi f208-2 about a year ago, and a smaller Xinzuo Zhen 6.8" cleaver a few months ago. Both have worked out well for me.

There are many more alternatives posted on AliExpress that seem worth considering--many available on AMAZON or EBAY as well.


----------



## drrayeye

drrayeye said:


> Until we begin to consider the many cleavers on AliExpress, these discussions get pretty predicable. Dissatisfied with the usual suspects here, I purchased a Shibazi f208-2 about a year ago, and a smaller Xinzuo Zhen 6.8" cleaver a few months ago. Both have worked out well for me.
> 
> There are many more alternatives posted on AliExpress that seem worth considering--many available on AMAZON or EBAY as well.


I've now reviewed this entire thread, and see even more reason to consider some of the alternatives. There are many interesting products well worth considering--some quite expensive--even powder steel. Delivery times are inconsistent. I've had several arrive within a week or two--and one that took two months!


----------



## kpham12

drrayeye said:


> Until we begin to consider the many cleavers on AliExpress, these discussions get pretty predicable. Dissatisfied with the usual suspects here, I purchased a Shibazi f208-2 about a year ago, and a smaller Xinzuo Zhen 6.8" cleaver a few months ago. Both have worked out well for me.
> 
> There are many more alternatives posted on AliExpress that seem worth considering--many available on AMAZON or EBAY as well.


Shibazi is pretty well known to have a good product, especially for the price range of $30-$50. I’ve sharpened a few “Zhen” brand vegetable cleavers for people and the “VG-10” used is decent and the grinds I’ve seen on them were better than expected.

But if you just type “Chinese cleaver” into Amazon, eBay, or AliExpress, 99% of the results are Chinese off brands, many of which are clearly the same knife under different names with slightly different marketing. They have the same or similar fake Damascus patterns, “kurouchi” finishes, hammer patterns, etc and are almost all some variant of “CrCoMov” steel, “VG-10” or undisclosed carbon steel. 

Can you post some examples of these AliExpress cleavers? Which of the “usual suspects” discussed in the thread are you comparing them to?


----------



## drrayeye

The "usual suspects" are CCK and Sugimoto, they are the ones I actually went to look at first. I think that my Shibazi f208-2 is basically a CCK with an updated appearance--maybe even sharing the same manufacturer. The alternative traditional manufacturer is Deng, which is a completely different design approach and a modern design version that they are clearly promoting. 

The more interesting recent competitors Hezhen and Xinzuo are really the same company, and Hezhen has an apparent upgrade to the F208-2, with slightly harder steel. 









36.35US $ 29% OFF|Hezhen 7 Or 8 Inches Slicing Knife 3 Layers Composite Stainless Steel High Quality Professional Kitchen Chef Cook Slice Knife - Kitchen Knives - AliExpress


Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com




www.aliexpress.com





Zinzuo has a designer Lan series that have cleavers with powder steel:









89.94US $ 50% OFF|Xinzuo 7.5'' In Cleaver Chef Knife 62-64 Hrc Damascus Stainless Steel Razor Sharp Slicing Meat Butcher Knife Olive Wood Handle - Kitchen Knives - AliExpress


Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com




www.aliexpress.com





There are quite a few more I could list


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> The "usual suspects" are CCK and Sugimoto, they are the ones I actually went to look at first. I think that my Shibazi f208-2 is basically a CCK with an updated appearance--maybe even sharing the same manufacturer. The alternative traditional manufacturer is Deng, which is a completely different design approach and a modern design version that they are clearly promoting.
> 
> The more interesting recent competitors Hezhen and Xinzuo are really the same company, and Hezhen has an apparent upgrade to the F208-2, with slightly harder steel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 36.35US $ 29% OFF|Hezhen 7 Or 8 Inches Slicing Knife 3 Layers Composite Stainless Steel High Quality Professional Kitchen Chef Cook Slice Knife - Kitchen Knives - AliExpress
> 
> 
> Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zinzuo has a designer Lan series that have cleavers with powder steel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 89.94US $ 50% OFF|Xinzuo 7.5'' In Cleaver Chef Knife 62-64 Hrc Damascus Stainless Steel Razor Sharp Slicing Meat Butcher Knife Olive Wood Handle - Kitchen Knives - AliExpress
> 
> 
> Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are quite a few more I could list


They definitely do not share a manufacture, the grind on CCK and ShiBaZi are very different, with CCK being a lot thinner, I would avoid some of the manufacturers here, Xinzuo is a huge disappointment, the grind is just ok, the "upgraded" handle is a huge downgrade in terms of comfort and balance.


----------



## drrayeye

blokey said:


> They definitely do not share a manufacture, the grind on CCK and ShiBaZi are very different, with CCK being a lot thinner, I would avoid some of the manufacturers here, Xinzuo is a huge disappointment, the grind is just ok, the "upgraded" handle is a huge downgrade in terms of comfort and balance.


Where does CCK get their steel? Where do they do their do their manufacturing? Yangjiang is just two hours away.

I have three Xinzuo knives: small Zhen cleaver, a 6" Zhen petty knife, and a dual core 110 layer 180 mm gyuto deba. My Japanese collaborator and I have done comparisons on all of them to established Japanese and German knives: Wusthof Classic Ikon. Miyabi birchwood, and Shun Kaji hollow ground santoku. All the Xinzuo knives performed well.

I personally like the Xinzuo handles and have enjoyed using them.

Xinzuo has been evaluated favorably by Chef Panko in several reviews:



Hezhen was also separately evaluated by Chef Panko:


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> Where does CCK get their steel? Where do they do their do their manufacturing? Yangjiang is just two hours away.
> 
> I have three Xinzuo knives: small Zhen cleaver, a 6" Zhen petty knife, and a dual core 110 layer 180 mm gyuto deba. My Japanese collaborator and I have done comparisons on all of them to established Japanese and German knives: Wusthof Classic Ikon. Miyabi birchwood, and Shun Kaji hollow ground santoku. All the Xinzuo knives performed well.
> 
> I personally like the Xinzuo handles and have enjoyed using them.
> 
> Xinzuo has been evaluated favorably by Chef Panko in several reviews:
> 
> 
> 
> Hezhen was also separately evaluated by Chef Panko:



YangJiang is a huge manufacturing hub, nearly 90% of Chinese knives comes out of there, and it is not the evidence CCK and ShiBaZi share a factory, especially when ShiBaZi do their own manufacturing. 
Non of the knife comparison you mentioned here are considered high performing knife here, if wouldn't surprise me they think it's on pair with those, even a $15 Dexter is in pair with Ikon's performance. I don't think ChefPanko is a credible source here, I owned several knives he reviewed and none of them included Japanese ones and Chinese ones impress me, and the he often confuse harness with wear resistance and given unrealistic figures on how long a knife would last without sharpening.


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> Where does CCK get their steel? Where do they do their do their manufacturing? Yangjiang is just two hours away.
> 
> I have three Xinzuo knives: small Zhen cleaver, a 6" Zhen petty knife, and a dual core 110 layer 180 mm gyuto deba. My Japanese collaborator and I have done comparisons on all of them to established Japanese and German knives: Wusthof Classic Ikon. Miyabi birchwood, and Shun Kaji hollow ground santoku. All the Xinzuo knives performed well.
> 
> I personally like the Xinzuo handles and have enjoyed using them.
> 
> Xinzuo has been evaluated favorably by Chef Panko in several reviews:
> 
> 
> 
> Hezhen was also separately evaluated by Chef Panko:



Btw CCK likely uses SK5/T8 steel in their carbon knives, non of Shibazi share the steel.


----------



## drrayeye

blokey said:


> YangJiang is a huge manufacturing hub, nearly 90% of Chinese knives comes out of there, and it is not the evidence CCK and ShiBaZi share a factory, especially when ShiBaZi do their own manufacturing.
> Non of the knife comparison you mentioned here are considered high performing knife here, if wouldn't surprise me they think it's on pair with those, even a $15 Dexter is in pair with Ikon's performance. I don't think ChefPanko is a credible source here, I owned several knives he reviewed and none of them included Japanese ones and Chinese ones impress me, and the he often confuse harness with wear resistance and given unrealistic figures on how long a knife would last without sharpening.


I am just a home cook, and all my evaluations are for tasks I perform in a home kitchen. My evaluations do jibe pretty well with reviews that I see on the internet. I've held and hefted a large variety of CCK and Sugimoto cleavers as well as the Shibazi and Xinzuo that I own.

Chef Panko has not only had direct contact with Xinzuo and Hezhen knives that he's purchased, but he's explored CCk both in Europe and Hong Kong when he visited there--and done evaluations on them. His credentials include being a sushi chef--a qualification that takes years of training from Japan. He's a professional in the restaurant industry.

It's not clear to me how much face to face contact you've had with any of the knives you comment on. If you haven't done so already, it's time to try these products out in your own home kitchen--possibly with those credentialed collaborators you might know who are home cooks--and see what you think then. That's what I've done.


----------



## drrayeye

blokey said:


> Btw CCK likely uses SK5/T8 steel in their carbon knives, non of Shibazi share the steel.


Except for enthusiasts, there really isn't much of a market for carbon steel among professionals. It's partly sanitary regulations, partly best practice. When not in use, some restaurant workers toss their knives into a pail of water.

However, I've seen Shibazi carbon steel cleavers on sale at AliExpress--and all the cleavers listed on AliExpress disclose the steel they're made of. Doesn't that make you suspicious when CCK doesn't?


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> Except for enthusiasts, there really isn't much of a market for carbon steel among professionals. It's partly sanitary regulations, partly best practice. When not in use, some restaurant workers toss their knives into a pail of water.
> 
> However, I've seen Shibazi carbon steel cleavers on sale at AliExpress--and all the cleavers listed on AliExpress disclose the steel they're made of. Doesn't that make you suspicious when CCK doesn't?


Lol you'd be surprised here how many professional here use carbon steel knife in professional kitchens. Seriously just go to back of the house section once. CCK and other Hongkongese brand use SK steel or industrial equivalent, they don't disclose it but they will answer you if you speak Cantonese or Mandarin which I happen do. 
Many of the AliExpress knife do market their steel loudly but sometimes that does not say anything especially when some of them just fake it, as ChefPanko disclosed once. Takefu no longer export VG10 overseas, so most vg10 knife you saw on AliExpress is going to be fake.


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> I am just a home cook, and all my evaluations are for tasks I perform in a home kitchen. My evaluations do jibe pretty well with reviews that I see on the internet. I've held and hefted a large variety of CCK and Sugimoto cleavers as well as the Shibazi and Xinzuo that I own.
> 
> Chef Panko has not only had direct contact with Xinzuo and Hezhen knives that he's purchased, but he's explored CCk both in Europe and Hong Kong when he visited there--and done evaluations on them. His credentials include being a sushi chef--a qualification that takes years of training from Japan. He's a professional in the restaurant industry.
> 
> It's not clear to me how much face to face contact you've had with any of the knives you comment on. If you haven't done so already, it's time to try these products out in your own home kitchen--possibly with those credentialed collaborators you might know who are home cooks--and see what you think then. That's what I've done.


Being a sushi chef do not require any training from Japan, even being trained in Japan doesn't mean anything. Anyone can email manufacturers and ask, and easier for me, Chinese is my first language. I have tried many of the knives mentioned by him, and I'm not impressed, i even suspect he's paid by some of the manufacturer as some of them have serious flaws.


----------



## drrayeye

blokey said:


> Lol you'd be surprised here how many professional here use carbon steel knife in professional kitchens. Seriously just go to back of the house section once. CCK and other Hongkongese brand use SK steel or industrial equivalent, they don't disclose it but they will answer you if you speak Cantonese or Mandarin which I happen do.
> Many of the AliExpress knife do market their steel loudly but sometimes that does not say anything especially when some of them just fake it, as ChefPanko disclosed once. Takefu no longer export VG10 overseas, so most vg10 knife you saw on AliExpress is going to be fake.


Sorry, this is all gossip. I'll pass.


----------



## tostadas

drrayeye said:


> I am just a home cook, and all my evaluations are for tasks I perform in a home kitchen. My evaluations do jibe pretty well with reviews that I see on the internet. I've held and hefted a large variety of CCK and Sugimoto cleavers as well as the Shibazi and Xinzuo that I own.
> 
> Chef Panko has not only had direct contact with Xinzuo and Hezhen knives that he's purchased, but he's explored CCk both in Europe and Hong Kong when he visited there--and done evaluations on them. His credentials include being a sushi chef--a qualification that takes years of training from Japan. He's a professional in the restaurant industry.
> 
> It's not clear to me how much face to face contact you've had with any of the knives you comment on. If you haven't done so already, it's time to try these products out in your own home kitchen--possibly with those credentialed collaborators you might know who are home cooks--and see what you think then. That's what I've done.


I did a comparison at one point between my CCk and Shibazi f208. They do not share many similarities


----------



## M1k3

blokey said:


> Lol you'd be surprised here how many professional here use carbon steel knife in professional kitchens. Seriously just go to back of the house section once. CCK and other Hongkongese brand use SK steel or industrial equivalent, they don't disclose it but they will answer you if you speak Cantonese or Mandarin which I happen do.
> Many of the AliExpress knife do market their steel loudly but sometimes that does not say anything especially when some of them just fake it, as ChefPanko disclosed once. Takefu no longer export VG10 overseas, so most vg10 knife you saw on AliExpress is going to be fake.


LOL Dexter sani-safe, Mercer Millennia and Cozzini's are stainless.


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> Sorry, this is all gossip. I'll pass.


Hardly a gossip, VG10 export ban is well known, even ChefPanko disclosed it once,Buying a Japanese VG10 Damascus Chef's Knife from China - ChefPanko, you can also contact Takefu directly. Contact｜TAKEFU SPECIAL STEEL CO., LTD.


M1k3 said:


> LOL Dexter sani-safe, Mercer Millennia and Cozzini's are stainless.


TBH I mean some professionals do use carbon steel knives, especially in Sushi kitchens where white#2 single bevels are really common, stainless beaters are still the majority.


----------



## tostadas

I'd also like to point out that I'm an expert in this matter, and all others as well. Because this is, after all, the internet.


----------



## drrayeye

blokey said:


> Being a sushi chef do not require any training from Japan, even being trained in Japan doesn't mean anything. Anyone can email manufacturers and ask, and easier for me, Chinese is my first language. I have tried many of the knives mentioned by him, and I'm not impressed, i even suspect he's paid by some of the manufacturer as some of them have serious flaws.


Again. Gossip. The practical bottom line is that I carried out a search for a Chinese Vegetable cleaver that would fit my home cook batterie--and a bit over a year ago chose the Shibazi f208-2. Since that time, I've enjoyed using it along side the other knives in my batterie. It's changed my thinking about certain knife work. 

It's also partially led me to look for a slightly wider slightly sharper possible replacement for the nakiri I got as a gift when I was living in Japan almost 30 years ago. I ended up with the Xinzuo Zhen 6..8" and a Kai Shun Kanso 7" Asian utility knife that I compared against each other. I found that the Chinese Zhen fit my batterie the best. The Kai Shun KIanso became the backup.


----------



## kpham12

drrayeye said:


> The "usual suspects" are CCK and Sugimoto, they are the ones I actually went to look at first. I think that my Shibazi f208-2 is basically a CCK with an updated appearance--maybe even sharing the same manufacturer. The alternative traditional manufacturer is Deng, which is a completely different design approach and a modern design version that they are clearly promoting.
> 
> The more interesting recent competitors Hezhen and Xinzuo are really the same company, and Hezhen has an apparent upgrade to the F208-2, with slightly harder steel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 36.35US $ 29% OFF|Hezhen 7 Or 8 Inches Slicing Knife 3 Layers Composite Stainless Steel High Quality Professional Kitchen Chef Cook Slice Knife - Kitchen Knives - AliExpress
> 
> 
> Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zinzuo has a designer Lan series that have cleavers with powder steel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 89.94US $ 50% OFF|Xinzuo 7.5'' In Cleaver Chef Knife 62-64 Hrc Damascus Stainless Steel Razor Sharp Slicing Meat Butcher Knife Olive Wood Handle - Kitchen Knives - AliExpress
> 
> 
> Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are quite a few more I could list


The Xinzuo Lan series is advertised as “powder steel”, but if you look at the pictures, they state it’s 14Cr14MoVNb steel. Not a powdered steel, just more marketing mumbo jumbo.

I don’t know about Xinzuo and Hezhen being the same company, but I’m not surprised. Easier to fake competition and sell more of the same knives under different names. I’ve sharpened a couple Hezhen chef knife sets and the same nakiri as in the video you posted and the grinds are just kind of flattish and thick behind the edge.



You can see at the 2:45 in the Chef Panko video he struggles to use the Hezhen nakiri to cut the end off a carrot, then just skips to another vegetable. These Chinese OEM knife companies mass produce and mass heat treat their knives with poor quality control and spend most of their money marketing/advertising. Dalstrong is probably the most well known example.



drrayeye said:


> Where does CCK get their steel? Where do they do their do their manufacturing? Yangjiang is just two hours away.
> 
> I have three Xinzuo knives: small Zhen cleaver, a 6" Zhen petty knife, and a dual core 110 layer 180 mm gyuto deba. My Japanese collaborator and I have done comparisons on all of them to established Japanese and German knives: Wusthof Classic Ikon. Miyabi birchwood, and Shun Kaji hollow ground santoku. All the Xinzuo knives performed well.
> 
> I personally like the Xinzuo handles and have enjoyed using them.
> 
> Xinzuo has been evaluated favorably by Chef Panko in several reviews:
> 
> 
> 
> Hezhen was also separately evaluated by Chef Panko:



Shun Kaji and Miyabi birchwood are on the mass produced side of the spectrum and are not indicative of the performance of most of the Japanese knives discussed in this thread or on this forum. Have you compared to any individual Japanese smith/maker?



drrayeye said:


> Except for enthusiasts, there really isn't much of a market for carbon steel among professionals. It's partly sanitary regulations, partly best practice. When not in use, some restaurant workers toss their knives into a pail of water.
> 
> However, I've seen Shibazi carbon steel cleavers on sale at AliExpress--and all the cleavers listed on AliExpress disclose the steel they're made of. Doesn't that make you suspicious when CCK doesn't?


Tons of pros use carbon steel. There are no sanitary regulations against carbon steel knives, I don’t know where you’re getting that misinformation from.

Why would anyone be suspicious of CCK? They’ve been making a proven product for a long time. Cleavers with nice thin grinds that are easy to sharpen. Have you actually used them, or just “held and hefted” them?



blokey said:


> Lol you'd be surprised here how many professional here use carbon steel knife in professional kitchens. Seriously just go to back of the house section once. CCK and other Hongkongese brand use SK steel or industrial equivalent, they don't disclose it but they will answer you if you speak Cantonese or Mandarin which I happen do.
> Many of the AliExpress knife do market their steel loudly but sometimes that does not say anything especially when some of them just fake it, as ChefPanko disclosed once. Takefu no longer export VG10 overseas, so most vg10 knife you saw on AliExpress is going to be fake.





drrayeye said:


> Sorry, this is all gossip. I'll pass.


It’s well documented that Chinese “VG-10” is not real VG-10. Also, you asked him if he’s had “face to face” contact with the products he’s referring to like CCK and he said he’s talked to them and you just dismiss it offhand? Lol.


----------



## drrayeye

tostadas said:


> I'd also like to point out that I'm an expert in this matter, and all others as well. Because this is, after all, the internet.



Absolutely! I'm convinced.


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> Again. Gossip. The practical bottom line is that I carried out a search for a Chinese Vegetable cleaver that would fit my home cook batterie--and a bit over a year ago chose the Shibazi f208-2. Since that time, I've enjoyed using it along side the other knives in my batterie. It's changed my thinking about certain knife work.
> 
> It's also partially led me to look for a slightly wider slightly sharper possible replacement for the nakiri I got as a gift when I was living in Japan almost 30 years ago. I ended up with the Xinzuo Zhen 6..8" and a Kai Shun Kanso 7" Asian utility knife that I compared against each other. I found that the Chinese Zhen fit my batterie the best. The Kai Shun KIanso became the backup.


Apart from last part which is just my frustration with his recommandations I do not see any of that is gossip, it is very easy to contact manufacturers on Aliexpress or TaoBao. ShiBaZi F208-2 is a very good knife, I'm glad you like it, unlike many Aliexpress brand, ShiBaZi is a reputable brand who does their own manufacturing, not just throw labels on OEM blades. Zhen is manufactures in Taiwan tho, if you like their shape but don't like the handle Chopper King is also a good choice. Also sharper blade really just depends on the sharpening practice not individual brand.


----------



## drrayeye

kpham12 said:


> The Xinzuo Lan series is advertised as “powder steel”, but if you look at the pictures, they state it’s 14Cr14MoVNb steel. Not a powdered steel, just more marketing mumbo jumbo.
> 
> I don’t know about Xinzuo and Hezhen being the same company, but I’m not surprised. Easier to fake competition and sell more of the same knives under different names. I’ve sharpened a couple Hezhen chef knife sets and the same nakiri as in the video you posted and the grinds are just kind of flattish and thick behind the edge.
> 
> 
> 
> You can see at the 2:45 in the Chef Panko video he struggles to use the Hezhen nakiri to cut the end off a carrot, then just skips to another vegetable. These Chinese OEM knife companies mass produce and mass heat treat their knives with poor quality control and spend most of their money marketing/advertising. Dalstrong is probably the most well known example.
> 
> 
> Shun Kaji and Miyabi birchwood are on the mass produced side of the spectrum and are not indicative of the performance of most of the Japanese knives discussed in this thread or on this forum. Have you compared to any individual Japanese smith/maker?
> 
> 
> Tons of pros use carbon steel. There are no sanitary regulations against carbon steel knives, I don’t know where you’re getting that misinformation from.
> 
> Why would anyone be suspicious of CCK? They’ve been making a proven product for a long time. Cleavers with nice thin grinds that are easy to sharpen. Have you actually used them, or just “held and hefted” them?
> 
> 
> 
> It’s well documented that Chinese “VG-10” is not real VG-10. Also, you asked him if he’s had “face to face” contact with the products he’s referring to like CCK and he said he’s talked to them and you just dismiss it offhand? Lol.



The bottom line for me is simple. I'm a home cook hobbyist that has developed a batterie that does a great job helping me carry out tasks. Each knife that I've chosen since I started was task specific, and needed to meet subjective economic criteria (a SEU) to justify a purchase. One foundational knife I built my batterie was an American carbon steel butcher knife, and the other was a Kai Seki Magoroku nakiri I was given by a family I frequently visited when I was living there. 

I have a former doctoral student from Japan who has worked with me searching for Japanese-American fusion: me getting educated on his perspective and going a bit East; he learning my American perspective and going a bit West. He's worked in restaurants in Japan before coming here.

Right now, all my batterie slots are full, and all the knives that I need in my kitchen are physically out and grabbable. I'm always open to upgrades--all my "slots" are up for competition.

So far, I've been unable to justify a single Artisan knife for my home batterie. If I were back in Japan, it might be different.


----------



## drrayeye

blokey said:


> Apart from last part which is just my frustration with his recommandations I do not see any of that is gossip, it is very easy to contact manufacturers on Aliexpress or TaoBao. ShiBaZi F208-2 is a very good knife, I'm glad you like it, unlike many Aliexpress brand, ShiBaZi is a reputable brand who does their own manufacturing, not just throw labels on OEM blades. Zhen is manufactures in Taiwan tho, if you like their shape but don't like the handle Chopper King is also a good choice. Also sharper blade really just depends on the sharpening practice not individual brand.


It's Xinzuo Zhen.


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> It's Xinzao Zhen.


I think you mean Xinzuo. Then that's a Chinese brand.


----------



## kpham12

drrayeye said:


> The bottom line for me is simple. I'm a home cook hobbyist that has developed a batterie that does a great job helping me carry out tasks. Each knife that I've chosen since I started was task specific, and needed to meet subjective economic criteria (a SEU) to justify a purchase. One foundational knife I built my batterie was an American carbon steel butcher knife, and the other was a Kai Seki Magoroku nakiri I was given by a family I frequently visited when I was living there.
> 
> I have a former doctoral student from Japan who has worked with me searching for Japanese-American fusion: me getting educated on his perspective and going a bit East; he learning my American perspective and going a bit West. He's worked in restaurants in Japan before coming here.
> 
> Right now, all my batterie slots are full, and all the knives that I need in my kitchen are physically out and grabbable. I'm always open to upgrades--all my "slots" are up for competition.
> 
> So far, I've been unable to justify a single Artisan knife for my home batterie. If I were back in Japan, it might be different.


I’m happy for anyone who’s found a knife or knives they like to use at home, at work, wherever.

What I don’t understand is why you would go on a thread called “cleaver chat” and say “these discussions get pretty predictable” and that you are “dissatisfied with the usual suspects here” like CCKs and Sugimotos which you haven’t used in a kitchen, then start calling for people to try alternatives, specifically mass produced Chinese knives from AliExpress, Amazon and eBay.


----------



## M1k3

Am I the only one...




I'll see myself out.


----------



## drrayeye

kpham12 said:


> I’m happy for anyone who’s found a knife or knives they like to use at home, at work, wherever.
> 
> What I don’t understand is why you would go on a thread called “cleaver chat” and say “these discussions get pretty predictable” and that you are “dissatisfied with the usual suspects here” like CCKs and Sugimotos which you haven’t used in a kitchen, then start calling for people to try alternatives, specifically mass produced Chinese knives from AliExpress, Amazon and eBay.


I'd love to see discussions by others, like me, who have been using these Aliexpress listed Chinese cleavers on this thread. There's quite a bit of interest already on other blogs and the Youtube--as I've illuistrated with just two examples.


----------



## drrayeye

kpham12 said:


> The Xinzuo Lan series is advertised as “powder steel”, but if you look at the pictures, they state it’s 14Cr14MoVNb steel. Not a powdered steel, just more marketing mumbo jumbo.
> 
> I don’t know about Xinzuo and Hezhen being the same company, but I’m not surprised. Easier to fake competition and sell more of the same knives under different names. I’ve sharpened a couple Hezhen chef knife sets and the same nakiri as in the video you posted and the grinds are just kind of flattish and thick behind the edge.
> 
> 
> 
> You can see at the 2:45 in the Chef Panko video he struggles to use the Hezhen nakiri to cut the end off a carrot, then just skips to another vegetable. These Chinese OEM knife companies mass produce and mass heat treat their knives with poor quality control and spend most of their money marketing/advertising. Dalstrong is probably the most well known example.
> 
> 
> Shun Kaji and Miyabi birchwood are on the mass produced side of the spectrum and are not indicative of the performance of most of the Japanese knives discussed in this thread or on this forum. Have you compared to any individual Japanese smith/maker?
> 
> 
> Tons of pros use carbon steel. There are no sanitary regulations against carbon steel knives, I don’t know where you’re getting that misinformation from.
> 
> Why would anyone be suspicious of CCK? They’ve been making a proven product for a long time. Cleavers with nice thin grinds that are easy to sharpen. Have you actually used them, or just “held and hefted” them?
> 
> 
> 
> It’s well documented that Chinese “VG-10” is not real VG-10. Also, you asked him if he’s had “face to face” contact with the products he’s referring to like CCK and he said he’s talked to them and you just dismiss it offhand? Lol.



Your whole post is argumentative and dismissive--and I'm not about to keep this going. I've already more than suggested some possibilities--I've _bought _some, reviewed them, and had a collaborator verify my impressions. 

There is already some of what I've done in earlier posts on this thread--which is what inspired me to get this far. Chef Panko has already done a ton of objective reviews of Chinese Vegetable cleavers posted on Youtube, and there are more reports by others out there.


----------



## esoo

drrayeye said:


> Chef Panko has not only had direct contact with Xinzuo and Hezhen knives that he's purchased, but he's explored CCk both in Europe and Hong Kong when he visited there--and done evaluations on them. His credentials include *being a sushi chef--a qualification that takes years of training from Japan*. He's a professional in the restaurant industry.



Based on my experience the bold part of the quote is a falsehood. I worked for several years for Japanese-born bosses who in the course of business took me out for lunch and dinners. I learned to quickly to distinguish the difference between a true Japanese sushi chef and the rest. Much of the sushi in my local is actually done by Koreans, which while decent enough misses the finesse of the Japanese sushi. The greatest telling point is the rice is never done properly.


----------



## tostadas

The search feature is your friend. There is lots of input on inexpensive cleavers in this forum if you look. Here are just some threads containing my own posts. BTW, I try to provide objective insight wherever possible, such as actual dimensions and measurements, which I believe are very useful when comparing several different knives. Also, yes, I'll say that I have *bought* a fair number of cleavers, since that seems to be important.






Cleaver Thinning Project


I picked up a Shibazi F208-2 stainless cleaver to try out the knife, and also test out a few things for thinning. Out of the box, the knife was actually not too bad. 333g on the scale. The stickers were a little annoying. A tip to remove the goop, rub a bit of oil on it and let the oil sit...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









Buying a low cost stainless chinese cleaver - analysis paralysis


I'm thinking of getting a Masahiro Cleaver myself so, I'm looking forward to any reviews and updates! Especially, TS vs TX comparisons which seem to be MBS-26 versus MV(MB?)-85 carbon stainless-clad steel.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









chinese cleaver questions


do you sharpen a chainese cleaver the same way you sharpen a regular chefs knife ? the japaneese way ? please send videos of how to sharpen Chinese vegetable cleavers like in the vid i am asking as i have never owned a Chinese vegetable cleaver like this shiba also how do you store your...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









Best knife for high volume veg prep?


[subtitle / disclaimer: “high volume” in the context of a home cook :) ] So my cooking volume increased quite a bit after getting married and adopting a rescue puppy (and deciding to spoil her with home-cooked meals). I previously cooked for 1-2 people but now I often do meal prep for the...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





I'm more than happy to provide more feedback or try to answer any specific questions regarding one cleaver vs another. However, it's annoying when someone comes on here and starts a rant about there not being information about X, when a simple search will quickly yield plenty of results.


My personal 1min review of the shibazi F208:
It's a fine knife for $30 and will perform perfectly fine in any kitchen. There are a lot of things that I really didn't like about it, hence the "cleaver thinning" thread. If I were to buy another budget cleaver, I would spend the money on something else.


----------



## drrayeye

esoo said:


> Based on my experience the bold part of the quote is a falsehood. I worked for several years for Japanese-born bosses who in the course of business took me out for lunch and dinners. I learned to quickly to distinguish the difference between a true Japanese sushi chef and the rest. Much of the sushi in my local is actually done by Koreans, which while decent enough misses the finesse of the Japanese sushi. The greatest telling point is the rice is never done properly.


I know Chef Panko well and have seen documentation of his training in Japan. My Japanese collaborator has provided me further details---he worked in a restaurant in Japan, but never came close to acquiring these credentials.

Such strong, poorly grounded, accusations betrays a confrontational dismissive ethic that makes serious, trusting discussions difficult.


----------



## drrayeye

tostadas said:


> The search feature is your friend. There is lots of input on inexpensive cleavers in this forum if you look. Here are just some threads containing my own posts. BTW, I try to provide objective insight wherever possible, such as actual dimensions and measurements, which I believe are very useful when comparing several different knives. Also, yes, I'll say that I have *bought* a fair number of cleavers, since that seems to be important.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cleaver Thinning Project
> 
> 
> I picked up a Shibazi F208-2 stainless cleaver to try out the knife, and also test out a few things for thinning. Out of the box, the knife was actually not too bad. 333g on the scale. The stickers were a little annoying. A tip to remove the goop, rub a bit of oil on it and let the oil sit...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buying a low cost stainless chinese cleaver - analysis paralysis
> 
> 
> I'm thinking of getting a Masahiro Cleaver myself so, I'm looking forward to any reviews and updates! Especially, TS vs TX comparisons which seem to be MBS-26 versus MV(MB?)-85 carbon stainless-clad steel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chinese cleaver questions
> 
> 
> do you sharpen a chainese cleaver the same way you sharpen a regular chefs knife ? the japaneese way ? please send videos of how to sharpen Chinese vegetable cleavers like in the vid i am asking as i have never owned a Chinese vegetable cleaver like this shiba also how do you store your...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best knife for high volume veg prep?
> 
> 
> [subtitle / disclaimer: “high volume” in the context of a home cook :) ] So my cooking volume increased quite a bit after getting married and adopting a rescue puppy (and deciding to spoil her with home-cooked meals). I previously cooked for 1-2 people but now I often do meal prep for the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm more than happy to provide more feedback or try to answer any specific questions regarding one cleaver vs another. However, it's annoying when someone comes on here and starts a rant about there not being information about X, when a simple search will quickly yield plenty of results.
> 
> 
> My personal 1min review of the shibazi F208:
> It's a fine knife for $30 and will perform perfectly fine in any kitchen. There are a lot of things that I really didn't like about it, hence the "cleaver thinning" thread. If I were to buy another budget cleaver, I would spend the money on something else.


Thanks for all the links and your thoughtful reply.


----------



## esoo

drrayeye said:


> I know Chef Panko well and have seen documentation of his training in Japan. My Japanese collaborator has provided me further details---he worked in a restaurant in Japan, but never came close to acquiring these credentials.
> 
> Such strong, poorly grounded, accusations betrays a confrontational dismissive ethic that makes serious, trusting discussions difficult.



I suggest you re-review my comment as your desire to defend Chef Panko has you fixated on adding him to a comment to which he was not related.

My simple point was that there are many who work as sushi chefs who have not trained in Japan in refutation of your comment.


----------



## kpham12

drrayeye said:


> I know Chef Panko well and have seen documentation of his training in Japan. My Japanese collaborator has provided me further details---he worked in a restaurant in Japan, but never came close to acquiring these credentials.
> 
> Such strong, poorly grounded, accusations betrays a confrontational dismissive ethic that makes serious, trusting discussions difficult.


Sorry, this is all gossip. I'll pass.


----------



## drrayeye

esoo said:


> I suggest you re-review my comment as your desire to defend Chef Panko has you fixated on adding him to a comment to which he was not related.
> 
> My simple point was that there are many who work as sushi chefs who have not trained in Japan in refutation of your comment.


By "refuting," defending, attacking, you destroy any possibility of a friendly, mutually beneficial discussion. This interaction is a waste of time.


----------



## esoo

drrayeye said:


> By "refuting," defending, attacking, you destroy any possibility of a friendly, mutually beneficial discussion. This interaction is a waste of time.



As is your response since you clearly have no interest in a discussion.


----------



## stringer

drrayeye said:


> By "refuting," defending, attacking, you destroy any possibility of a friendly, mutually beneficial discussion. This interaction is a waste of time.


As a former professional debater I disagree. I would say your dismissal of other's opinions based on nothing but ad hominems probably does more to degrade the friendly nature of the conversation than others giving you their highly educated opinions that you seemed to be asking for. 

If this interaction was a waste of time and if engaging in enthusiastic and reasoned arguments about the benefits of various luxury cooking utensils wasn't in some way valuable then this thread, moreover this entire site, wouldn't exist. That is pretty much all we do here. Our raison d'etre. 

So look around. Read through the other 17 pages of this thread where we were arguing and debating about this topic for the past couple of years. Or don't. But you aren't going to be having too many mutually beneficial discussions if you don't want to engage in the back and forth. And instead just tell people that their knowledge and experience is worthless hearsay.


----------



## drrayeye

stringer said:


> As a former professional debater I disagree. I would say your dismissal of other's opinions based on nothing but ad hominems probably does more to degrade the friendly nature of the conversation than others giving you their highly educated opinions that you seemed to be asking for.
> 
> If this interaction was a waste of time and if engaging in enthusiastic and reasoned arguments about the benefits of various luxury cooking utensils wasn't in some way valuable then this thread, moreover this entire site, wouldn't exist. That is pretty much all we do here. Our raison d'etre.
> 
> So look around. Read through the other 17 pages of this thread where we were arguing and debating about this topic for the past couple of years. Or don't. But you aren't going to be having too many mutually beneficial discussions if you don't want to engage in the back and forth. And instead just tell people that their knowledge and experience is worthless hearsay.


I've read through the 17 pages when I first posted. There were some interesting posts, though not many "enthusiastic and reasoned arguments"--thankfully. I'm not a philosopher or professional debater. I prefer content. I'll go back to lurking.


----------



## cotedupy

I think there are quite enough factories in China that CCK and Shibazi don't need to share resources tbh. And even if they did, I doubt CCK would have much incentive to lie about it on their own website:








If someone wants to know what steel they use then it's quite easy to email them: [email protected]

Or just give their store in Toronto a call and ask:


----------



## drrayeye

I've seen that website, seen an alleged picture of workers "making the cleavers locally" posted on Chef Knives to Go about five years ago, made side by side CCK comparisons with my Shibazi f208-2 at Action Sales (down the street from my house) learned how the stamped information on each knife indicates marketing source, noticed recent packaging changes, etc. etc. etc.

The "main store" in Hong Kong is just a regular outlet--not even an obvious distributor. Hong Kong is part of China.

The manufacture and distribution of CCK knives details have not been publicly disclosed--nor has the type of steel used in the manufacture.


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> I've seen that website, seen an alleged picture of workers "making the cleavers locally" posted on Chef Knives to Go about five years ago, made side by side CCK comparisons with my Shibazi f208-2 at Action Sales (down the street from my house) learned how the stamped information on each knife indicates marketing source, noticed recent packaging changes, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> The "main store" in Hong Kong is just a regular outlet--not even an obvious distributor. Hong Kong is part of China.
> 
> The manufacture and distribution of CCK knives details have not been publicly disclosed--nor has the type of steel used in the manufacture.


The main store in Hong Kong is the main distrubutor, their name is literally 陳枝記, there is only one store in HongKong and one in Canada, every CCK sourced otherwise comes from there, include the ones on TaoBao. I have been to the store, they used to manufactured the knives in HongKong before demand exploded, now they manufacture their stuff in Guang Dong (without mention specific cities). The old markings on CCK knives is literally their store address in Hong Kong, indicting they are the only seller. 
It is well known in Chinese knife circle that they use SK5/T8 grade of steel, and recently they have gone softer with their heat treatment. It's ok that you don't understand Chinese, you can just contact them, seriously, what's stopping you?


----------



## superworrier

It also says on their website they manufacture their own knives.


----------



## drrayeye

tostadas said:


> I did a comparison at one point between my CCk and Shibazi f208. They do not share many similarities


I noticed that--side by side--they have very similar profiles--and the Shibazi has much better fit and finish.


----------



## drrayeye

superworrier said:


> It also says on their website they manufacture their own knives.


but not where--or from whom they get their steel--or even what kind of steel they use. Have you ever seen the color coded handles on any yet--as described on that website?


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> I noticed that--side by side--they have very similar profiles--and the Shibazi has much better fit and finish.


That's because they are both Sang Dao/桑刀, which have a particular profile, Shuang Shi/双狮, Fookee, Tim Leung all make similar profiled knives because that's a traditional knife shape, it's like saying all Usuba are made in the same factory because they share a similar profile.


drrayeye said:


> but not where--or from whom they get their steel--or even what kind of steel they use. Have you ever seen the color coded handles on any yet--as described on that website?


Ask them, I already said Sk5/T8 grade couple times. The color coded handle is sold in their main store and can be found on TaoBao, they don't have much interest in NA so they simply did not import it.
BTW neither did any AliExpress manufacturer discuss where they get their vg10 from.


----------



## tostadas

drrayeye said:


> I noticed that--side by side--they have very similar profiles--and the Shibazi has *much better* fit and finish.


I guess that depends on your definition of "fit and finish". To me, that refers to 

smoothness of grind
evenness of grind
connection between blade and handle
shape and comfort of handle
smoothness of transition between parts (ie. wood to ferrule, or ferrule to blade)
smoothness or sharp edges around spine/choil
overall straightness
Or stating it another way, how long does it take to bring the knife up to my standard of comfort? The CCK only required a little touch up around spine/choil for it to be comfortable to me. In contrast, I spent hours working on the Shibazi.

How do you define "fit and finish", and how is the Shibazi much better?


----------



## superworrier

A lot of the info on that ChefPanko website is suspect (not trying to say anything about his cooking). For example, he lists white 2 as 5/5 for edge retention, when it's known for low retention. Weirdly, he lists white 1 as 3/5, which is known to have higher retention than white 2 due to higher hardness (in general). He repeats this same trend for blue 1 and 2.


----------



## drrayeye

tostadas said:


> I guess that depends on your definition of "fit and finish". To me, that refers to
> 
> smoothness of grind
> evenness of grind
> connection between blade and handle
> shape and comfort of handle
> smoothness of transition between parts (ie. wood to ferrule, or ferrule to blade)
> smoothness or sharp edges around spine/choil
> overall straightness
> Or stating it another way, how long does it take to bring the knife up to my standard of comfort? The CCK only required a little touch up around spine/choil for it to be comfortable to me. In contrast, I spent hours working on the Shibazi.
> 
> How do you define "fit and finish", and how is the Shibazi much better?


I rejected the CCK's when I first looked at them, because their f and f was unacceptable to me. Once I obtained my Shibazi f208-2, the face to face comparison was very compelling: the rosewood handle vs. the crap handles, the cladding on the blade and engraving--beautiful finish vs. raw. I had already validated the excellent performance in my home described in several online Youtube reviews and comparisons.

To do a "real" product by product comparison between CCK and Shibazi, one would first need to go through multiple models of each--picking carefully for comparison--and then, at least, make measurements of hardness, and observations of edge retention.

Then a side by side.

You've apparently reviewed one unpaired Shibazi for appearance that is inconsistent with many reviews and reports--but you may well have your own valid standards.

Most important to me--after more than a year, nothing I've observed or experienced since purchasing my Shibazi has led me to a negative revision. The only thing that bothered me a little from the beginning was that tinny bolster, but it's nearly identical to the one on the CCK. For awhile, the rosewood handle sucked up oil like a sponge, but it's settled down, and I haven't oiled it for a long time and it looks great.

Even by your standards, you've only done half of one comparison with one Shibazi model--not carefully chosen. The CCK side by side is missing.

There are reports that I've seen by active users that go much further than your single one cleaver observation. I'm aware of one user report that concludes that the Shibazi and CCK are comparable. That guy went on to buy the Shibazi because it was slightly cheaper--in Taiwan, I think.


----------



## tostadas

drrayeye said:


> I rejected the CCK's when I first looked at them, because their f and f was unacceptable to me. Once I obtained my Shibazi f208-2, the face to face comparison was very compelling: the rosewood handle vs. the crap handles, the cladding on the blade and engraving--beautiful finish vs. raw. I had already validated the excellent performance in my home described in several online Youtube reviews and comparisons.
> 
> To do a "real" product by product comparison between CCK and Shibazi, one would first need to go through multiple models of each--picking carefully for comparison--and then, at least, make measurements of hardness, and observations of edge retention.
> 
> Then a side by side.
> 
> You've apparently reviewed one unpaired Shibazi for appearance that is inconsistent with many reviews and reports--but you may well have your own valid standards.
> 
> Most important to me--after more than a year, nothing I've observed or experienced since purchasing my Shibazi has led me to a negative revision. The only thing that bothered me a little from the beginning was that tinny bolster, but it's nearly identical to the one on the CCK. For awhile, the rosewood handle sucked up oil like a sponge, but it's settled down, and I haven't oiled it for a long time and it looks great.
> 
> Even by your standards, you've only done half of one comparison with one Shibazi model--not carefully chosen. The CCK side by side is missing.
> 
> There are reports that I've seen by active users that go much further than your single one cleaver observation. I'm aware of one user report that concludes that the Shibazi and CCK are comparable. That guy went on to buy the Shibazi because it was slightly cheaper--in Taiwan, I think.


I have several CCKs and really enjoy cleavers, personally owning and have used at least a couple. You clearly have a strong passion for that Panko guy and your Shibazi. I cant argue with your likes. I'll just say, that I feel the Shibazi is a $30 value for a $30 knife. Nothing else I nor anyone else here can say will convince you otherwise. I don't know exactly what your aim is in this thread. But I don't have a desire to continue with this line of discussion.


----------



## stringer

drrayeye said:


> I rejected the CCK's when I first looked at them, because their f and f was unacceptable to me. Once I obtained my Shibazi f208-2, the face to face comparison was very compelling: the rosewood handle vs. the crap handles, the cladding on the blade and engraving--beautiful finish vs. raw. I had already validated the excellent performance in my home described in several online Youtube reviews and comparisons.
> 
> To do a "real" product by product comparison between CCK and Shibazi, one would first need to go through multiple models of each--picking carefully for comparison--and then, at least, make measurements of hardness, and observations of edge retention.
> 
> Then a side by side.
> 
> You've apparently reviewed one unpaired Shibazi for appearance that is inconsistent with many reviews and reports--but you may well have your own valid standards.
> 
> Most important to me--after more than a year, nothing I've observed or experienced since purchasing my Shibazi has led me to a negative revision. The only thing that bothered me a little from the beginning was that tinny bolster, but it's nearly identical to the one on the CCK. For awhile, the rosewood handle sucked up oil like a sponge, but it's settled down, and I haven't oiled it for a long time and it looks great.
> 
> Even by your standards, you've only done half of one comparison with one Shibazi model--not carefully chosen. The CCK side by side is missing.
> 
> There are reports that I've seen by active users that go much further than your single one cleaver observation. I'm aware of one user report that concludes that the Shibazi and CCK are comparable. That guy went on to buy the Shibazi because it was slightly cheaper--in Taiwan, I think.


Obviously you're not a golfer.


----------



## drrayeye

tostadas said:


> I have several CCKs and really enjoy cleavers, personally owning and have used at least a couple. You clearly have a strong passion for that Panko guy and your Shibazi. I cant argue with your likes. I'll just say, that I feel the Shibazi is a $30 value for a $30 knife. Nothing else I nor anyone else here can say will convince you otherwise. I don't know exactly what your aim is in this thread. But I don't have a desire to continue with this line of discussion.


It's not "likes," My search for a vegetable cleaver was inspired by a fellow home cook, and my exploration and decision came before the Chef Panko (and other) reviews. I've done comparative studies of kitchen knives before, so I had a set of standards going in.

I don't have to defend the Shibazi f208-2. Both in sales and reviews, it's an international star. That doesn't mean anything negative about the CCK line--my objections were entirely aesthetics.

In Taiwan, where Shibazi's and CCK's can be seen in stores, side by side, both sell quite well-with the CCK slightly more expensive. It's a similar situation in Viet Nam.

It's speculation, but my guess is they're made in the same place, with the same steels in the different models.


----------



## tostadas

drrayeye said:


> It's not "likes," My search for a vegetable cleaver was inspired by a fellow home cook, and my exploration and decision came before the Chef Panko (and other) reviews. I've done comparative studies of kitchen knives before, so I had a set of standards going in.
> 
> I don't have to defend the Shibazi f208-2. Both in sales and reviews, it's an international star. That doesn't mean anything negative about the CCK line--my objections were entirely aesthetics.
> 
> In Taiwan, where Shibazi's and CCK's can be seen in stores, side by side, both sell quite well-with the CCK slightly more expensive. It's a similar situation in Viet Nam.
> 
> It's speculation, but my guess is they're made in the same place, with the same steels in the different models.


Ah got it. You're an expert. Definitely far more experienced than everyone else. When is the awards ceremony?


----------



## drrayeye

superworrier said:


> A lot of the info on that ChefPanko website is suspect (not trying to say anything about his cooking). For example, he lists white 2 as 5/5 for edge retention, when it's known for low retention. Weirdly, he lists white 1 as 3/5, which is known to have higher retention than white 2 due to higher hardness (in general). He repeats this same trend for blue 1 and 2.


I appreciate the honesty and care of Chef Panko, who buys most of the knives he tests--and makes substantive measurements and comparisons. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. He wants the type of observations you are making posted--especially in the context of his overall recomendations. If you look,I think you'll see that Chef Panko often makes very long responses to this kind of comment.


----------



## drrayeye

stringer said:


> Obviously you're not a golfer.


Obviously, CCK is not a violin maker.


----------



## drrayeye

blokey said:


> That's because they are both Sang Dao/桑刀, which have a particular profile, Shuang Shi/双狮, Fookee, Tim Leung all make similar profiled knives because that's a traditional knife shape, it's like saying all Usuba are made in the same factory because they share a similar profile.
> 
> Ask them, I already said Sk5/T8 grade couple times. The color coded handle is sold in their main store and can be found on TaoBao, they don't have much interest in NA so they simply did not import it.
> BTW neither did any AliExpress manufacturer discuss where they get their vg10 from.


I like lots of your comments--and I've learned a great deal. I just have a very different perspective.


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> It's not "likes," My search for a vegetable cleaver was inspired by a fellow home cook, and my exploration and decision came before the Chef Panko (and other) reviews. I've done comparative studies of kitchen knives before, so I had a set of standards going in.
> 
> I don't have to defend the Shibazi f208-2. Both in sales and reviews, it's an international star. That doesn't mean anything negative about the CCK line--my objections were entirely aesthetics.
> 
> In Taiwan, where Shibazi's and CCK's can be seen in stores, side by side, both sell quite well-with the CCK slightly more expensive. It's a similar situation in Viet Nam.
> 
> It's speculation, but my guess is they're made in the same place, with the same steels in the different models.


How is 8cr13mov, 4cr13 and sk5/t8 the same steel? The most popular carbon steel in mainland China is 65mn, I never seen anyone use sk series aside from Hong Kong manufacturers. If you mean made in the same place as they are made in Guang Dong then yes, that place has more population than most European countries. If you been to Taiwan then you should know 六協 and 菜刀王 are far more popular than both in professional and home settings. But of course they probably look the same to you and you assume they are made in the same place.


drrayeye said:


> I appreciate the honesty and care of Chef Panko, who buys most of the knives he tests--and makes substantive measurements and comparisons. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. He wants the type of observations you are making posted--especially in the context of his overall recomendations. If you look,I think you'll see that Chef Panko often makes very long responses to this kind of comment.


That did not mean anything, Ryky probably handle more knives than most members here and he is still a joke. His response often comes to vague conclusions and did not response to some of the mistakes people point out like hardness and wear resistance, his confusion of steel types.


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> I like lots of your comments--and I've learned a great deal. I just have a very different perspective.


This has nothing to do with perspective, CCK and ShiBaZi does not share a factory, in fact ShiBaZi does not share factory with anyother brand apart from their sub brand like Xuan Fu Ren/选夫人. It's just weird to me you clearly does not know anything regarding Chinese knife industry apart from couple unreliable YouTubers, yet insist your conclusion, your only contact seems to be a "Japanese collaborator" whereas many people in the forum have or had direct contact with the maker.


----------



## kpham12

drrayeye said:


> It's not "likes," My search for a vegetable cleaver was inspired by a fellow home cook, and my exploration and decision came before the Chef Panko (and other) reviews. I've done comparative studies of kitchen knives before, so I had a set of standards going in.
> 
> I don't have to defend the Shibazi f208-2. Both in sales and reviews, it's an international star. That doesn't mean anything negative about the CCK line--my objections were entirely aesthetics.
> 
> In Taiwan, where Shibazi's and CCK's can be seen in stores, side by side, both sell quite well-with the CCK slightly more expensive. It's a similar situation in Viet Nam.
> 
> It's speculation, but my guess is they're made in the same place, with the same steels in the different models.


What “comparative studies of kitchen knives” have you done? What does that even entail? Everyone here buys and uses kitchen knives and compares them. 

Do you not see the irony in calling another member’s post “gossip” and then post “It's speculation, but my guess is they're made in the same place, with the same steels in the different models.”


----------



## drrayeye

blokey said:


> How is 8cr13mov, 4cr13 and sk5/t8 the same steel? The most popular carbon steel in mainland China is 65mn, I never seen anyone use sk series aside from Hong Kong manufacturers. If you mean made in the same place as they are made in Guang Dong then yes, that place has more population than most European countries. If you been to Taiwan then you should know 六協 and 菜刀王 are far more popular than both in professional and home settings. But of course they probably look the same to you and you assume they are made in the same place.
> 
> That did not mean anything, Ryky probably handle more knives than most members here and he is still a joke. His response often comes to vague conclusions and did not response to some of the mistakes people point out like hardness and wear resistance, his confusion of steel types.


The steel and where it comes from is still conjecture. You helped by suggesting "Guang Dong" for manufacture, but I'd expect it to be the distribution site with Yangjiang as the manufacturing site.

As far as reviewers are concerned, Ryky has no credentials and has never worked in restaurants--and has been a hired promoter (but a successful one). How could you possibly compare him to Chef Panko?


----------



## drrayeye

kpham12 said:


> What “comparative studies of kitchen knives” have you done? What does that even entail? Everyone here buys and uses kitchen knives and compares them.
> 
> Do you not see the irony in calling another member’s post “gossip” and then post “It's speculation, but my guess is they're made in the same place, with the same steels in the different models.”


All I came here to do is to suggest reviews of a broader range of Chinese cleavers--especially those listed on AliExpress. I could have mentioned that there are more than 100 listed on AMAZON instead and made the same point.

Look where we are now--person vs. person--attack and defend. No new intentions even to do anything useful.

Gossip and speculation are not the same thing.


----------



## BillHanna

When this guy leaves the forum in a few days, can the mods clean up his shtuff from this awesome thread?


----------



## blokey

drrayeye said:


> The steel and where it comes from is still conjecture. You helped by suggesting "Guang Dong" for manufacture, but I'd expect it to be the distribution site with Yangjiang as the manufacturing site.
> 
> As far as reviewers are concerned, Ryky has no credentials and has never worked in restaurants--and has been a hired promoter (but a successful one). How could you possibly compare him to Chef Panko?


Yang Jiang is literally part of Guang Dong.... Because they both have little credibility with reviewing knives, credits to Ryky tho he got his steel stuff mostly right.


----------



## drrayeye

blokey said:


> This has nothing to do with perspective, CCK and ShiBaZi does not share a factory, in fact ShiBaZi does not share factory with anyother brand apart from their sub brand like Xuan Fu Ren/选夫人. It's just weird to me you clearly does not know anything regarding Chinese knife industry apart from couple unreliable YouTubers, yet insist your conclusion, your only contact seems to be a "Japanese collaborator" whereas many people in the forum have or had direct contact with the maker.


You're obviously an interesting and sincere source of information in Hong Kong and southern China, but what you just wrote is more a rant than anything else. 

The more different Chinese vegetable cleavers that get reviewed--and hopefully used--over here, the happier I will be.


----------



## tostadas

If only this forum had reviews of cleavers somewhere, perhaps in a 19 page thread about cleavers. That would be a really great idea. I should have thought of that.


----------



## kpham12

drrayeye said:


> All I came here to do is to suggest reviews of a broader range of Chinese cleavers--especially those listed on AliExpress. I could have mentioned that there are more than 100 listed on AMAZON instead and made the same point.
> 
> Look where we are now--person vs. person--attack and defend. No new intentions even to do anything useful.
> 
> Gossip and speculation are not the same thing.


There’s no attack, I’m honestly asking about your comparative review. Because you said you bought and reviewed the knives we’re talking about, but then you said you actually just went to Action Sales and compared the CCKs to the Shibazis in the store and bought the Shibazi and the “rejected the CCK” due to fit and finish. Then another member posts they’ve used both Shibazi and CCK in their kitchen and you complain that they’ve only used one Shibazi. How many CCKs did you actually buy and use to compare to your Shibazi? Again, not an attack, just asking.


----------



## ian

My former PhD student only uses CCKs. (I work at Troll U.)


----------



## tostadas

kpham12 said:


> There’s no attack, I’m honestly asking about your comparative review. Because you said you bought and reviewed the knives we’re talking about, but then you said you actually just went to Action Sales and compared the CCKs to the Shibazis in the store and bought the Shibazi and the “rejected the CCK” due to fit and finish. Then another member posts they’ve used both Shibazi and CCK in their kitchen and you complain that they’ve only used one Shibazi. How many CCKs did you actually buy and use to compare to your Shibazi? Again, not an attack, just asking.


To be fair, that member picked out an especially bad shibazi


----------



## stringer

My former medical student asked me why I preferred a thinner ground knife like the CCK to the more robust Shibazi and I explained that the CCK had a more effective grind for a general purpose knife. Either knife would hold up to all kinds of everyday abuse, but the CCK's thin grind made it more effective across a wide variety of soft and hard produce.


----------



## cotedupy

My cousin looks a bit like Keira Knightley.


----------



## cotedupy

Association fallacy - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## superworrier

drrayeye said:


> I appreciate the honesty and care of Chef Panko, who buys most of the knives he tests--and makes substantive measurements and comparisons. Doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. He wants the type of observations you are making posted--especially in the context of his overall recomendations. If you look,I think you'll see that Chef Panko often makes very long responses to this kind of comment.


I would recommend to not listen to this person. White 2 objectively will be on the worse end in edge retention since it has very little alloying elements. Additionally, white 1 (to its potential) will have higher hardening potential due to its higher carbon content. Saying white 2 has higher retention than white 1 shows a serious lack of understanding about steels

Additionally, the heat treat itself matters beyond the steel. But ranking SG2 below white 2 in edge retention is just completely laughable.


----------



## superworrier

Here he tries to tie Rockwell to edge retention. This is flawed as Rockwell measures hardness, not edge retention. Different steels at the same Rockwell will have massively different retention .

Here is a good resource and write up, by a metallurgist. Testing the Edge Retention of 48 Knife Steels - Knife Steel Nerds


----------



## superworrier

drrayeye said:


> The steel and where it comes from is still conjecture. You helped by suggesting "Guang Dong" for manufacture, but I'd expect it to be the distribution site with Yangjiang as the manufacturing site.
> 
> As far as reviewers are concerned, Ryky has no credentials and has never worked in restaurants--and has been a hired promoter (but a successful one). How could you possibly compare him to Chef Panko?


Lol chef Panko is literally slinging Amazon affiliate links on his site


----------



## M1k3

But what's CM's opinion on the CCK vs Shibazi conundrum?


----------



## tostadas

M1k3 said:


> But what's CM's opinion on the CCK vs Shibazi conundrum?


Unfavorable. Neither can grate cheese.


----------



## stringer

tostadas said:


> Unfavorable. Neither can grate cheese.


Or shoe a horse.


----------



## drrayeye

This thread is only interesting to me when someone reports on a new Chinese vegetable cleaver that they use or intend to use for cooking prep that might break new ground. Of the current 19 pages, there is less than one full page of material that fits at least that spirit--and many pages of gossip.

Disappointing.


----------



## ian

drrayeye said:


> This thread is only interesting to me when someone reports on a new Chinese vegetable cleaver that they use or intend to use for cooking prep that might break new ground. Of the current 19 pages, there is less than one full page of material that fits at least that spirit--and many pages of gossip.
> 
> Disappointing.



You don’t need follow it any more. I promise I’ll PM you when someone reports on a new cleaver!


----------



## tostadas

drrayeye said:


> This thread is only interesting to me when someone reports on a new Chinese vegetable cleaver that they use or intend to use for cooking prep that might break new ground. Of the current 19 pages, there is less than one full page of material that fits at least that spirit--and many pages of gossip.
> 
> Disappointing.


Yea... No that doesn't sound interesting to me.


----------



## drrayeye

ian said:


> You don’t need follow it any more. I promise I’ll PM you when someone reports on a new cleaver!


Fantastic! Thanks


----------



## blokey

Ginga cleaver back in stock, while I did sell mine, I still hold it in very high regard, quiet thin for a full size cleaver but still tough. The signature Ashi grind is really good here.








Gesshin Ginga #6 White #2 Chinese Cleaver (Wa-Handle)


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin Ginga line is a custom line we have produced for us exclusively. These knives are very thin and light and have great fit and finish. The spine and choil are rounded and polished. The steel is a very fine-grained carbon steel called...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com


----------



## blokey

blokey said:


> Ginga cleaver back in stock, while I did sell mine, I still hold it in very high regard, quiet thin for a full size cleaver but still tough. The signature Ashi grind is really good here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gesshin Ginga #6 White #2 Chinese Cleaver (Wa-Handle)
> 
> 
> Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin Ginga line is a custom line we have produced for us exclusively. These knives are very thin and light and have great fit and finish. The spine and choil are rounded and polished. The steel is a very fine-grained carbon steel called...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.japaneseknifeimports.com


And....it's gone while I'm writing this post


----------



## Noodle Soup

I assume that means they never had many to start with. Like I really need another cleaver.


----------



## blokey

Noodle Soup said:


> I assume that means they never had many to start with. Like I really need another cleaver.


Only 2 when I got the notification, but that's still quiet fast.


----------



## Noodle Soup

Two explains a lot of things. Still, I've been in the direct marketing of cutlery business in the past. You can't pay many bills selling two knives.


----------



## blokey

Noodle Soup said:


> Two explains a lot of things. Still, I've been in the direct marketing of cutlery business in the past. You can't pay many bills selling two knives.


Ashi is more of a workshop than factory, never saw more than 10 of their knives in stock anywhere.


----------



## Noodle Soup

blokey said:


> Ashi is more of a workshop than factory, never saw more than 10 of their knives in stock anywhere.


I was thinking more of their American retailer.


----------



## blokey

Noodle Soup said:


> I was thinking more of their American retailer.


Not sure about JKI's sales number but Jon seems to be doing fine, they sell other knives too.


----------



## M1k3

EDIT:
LOL whoops...wrong thread!


----------



## kpham12

blokey said:


> Ginga cleaver back in stock, while I did sell mine, I still hold it in very high regard, quiet thin for a full size cleaver but still tough. The signature Ashi grind is really good here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gesshin Ginga #6 White #2 Chinese Cleaver (Wa-Handle)
> 
> 
> Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin Ginga line is a custom line we have produced for us exclusively. These knives are very thin and light and have great fit and finish. The spine and choil are rounded and polished. The steel is a very fine-grained carbon steel called...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.japaneseknifeimports.com


I want to try the stainless one with the stubby wa handle some day, grind looks really nice.


----------



## tostadas

M1k3 said:


> A lot of Zakuri's restocked at JKI
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zakuri
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.japaneseknifeimports.com


Do they have a cleaver?


----------



## blokey

kpham12 said:


> I want to try the stainless one with the stubby wa handle some day, grind looks really nice.


It is really nice, thinner than most Japanese made Chinese chef, cuts very nicely. I especially love the steel, feels almost like carbon but do keep a nice edge for quiet some time, I sometimes regret selling mine.


----------



## kpham12

Some interesting videos of the Sugimoto factory popped up on my YouTube feed. Vids are 11 years old, but the footage looks a lot older. I think I put them in order. First vid appears to be inserting the core steel via the warikomi method maybe, then hammering out the shape followed by working on a springhammer (power hammer? I don’t know the technical term) in the following vids. Might be from when they were still making full tang cleavers. Wonder if there’s a full video somewhere.


----------



## Jville

M1k3 said:


> But what's CM's opinion on the CCK vs Shibazi conundrum?


She makes her cleavers out of thrown away nonstick pans.


----------



## tostadas

Added final touches to the overhaul of my Matsubara ginsan with a new custom handle I just finished making. Now I finally got a nice stainless cleaver that can compete with my favorite carbon ones.

Rounded and polished spine/choil
Shortened "machi"
Ground down the protruding heel at the back into a gentle S
Reprofiled the dead flat edge to a slight but continuous curve
Thinned, bevels evened out on stones, full kasumi, and a beastly edge off the suita
Custom stabilized blackwood/bog oak handle















And for anyone interested, here's some shots of the handle





Show us your sticks (finished handle projects)...


I finished the other two handles that I am considering for the TF in my post four above. Cocobolo and maple; and Ron-Ron, African Blackwood spacer and desert ironwood. I think Ron-ron is a very under rated wood if for no other reason than the translation is Rum- Rum. Since I'm here, I'll post...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## blokey

kpham12 said:


> Some interesting videos of the Sugimoto factory popped up on my YouTube feed. Vids are 11 years old, but the footage looks a lot older. I think I put them in order. First vid appears to be inserting the core steel via the warikomi method maybe, then hammering out the shape followed by working on a springhammer (power hammer? I don’t know the technical term) in the following vids. Might be from when they were still making full tang cleavers. Wonder if there’s a full video somewhere.



Very interesting, I always thought Sugimoto cleavers are all monosteel, but turns out they do have a cladded line.


----------



## kpham12

blokey said:


> Very interesting, I always thought Sugimoto cleavers are all monosteel, but turns out they do have a cladded line.


Yeah, the sandblasted finish covers up the real cladding line, it’s usually closer to the edge than the sandblasting indicates.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

I'm liking that:

Kagayaki High Carbon Steel Chinese Cleaver​
but I am pretty sure it won't gain me much beyond my very boring CCK 130something. I refuse to drop real money on a cleaver, because I think it spits in the eye of what a cleaver is all about FOR ME. just a basher, Do it all, zero frills, check out my tiny green onion slivers, kitchen tool.


----------



## tostadas

boomchakabowwow said:


> I'm liking that:
> 
> Kagayaki High Carbon Steel Chinese Cleaver​
> but I am pretty sure it won't gain me much beyond my very boring CCK 130something. I refuse to drop real money on a cleaver, because I think it spits in the eye of what a cleaver is all about FOR ME. just a basher, Do it all, zero frills, check out my tiny green onion slivers, kitchen tool.


I have yet to find a western handled cleaver that I like. But this one looks like it may be worth trying for the price.


----------



## kpham12

CCK Bone Chopper with the newer branding in action on some delicious looking roast meats. Definitely don’t need one, but I want one.


----------



## demirtasem

kpham12 said:


> CCK Bone Chopper with the newer branding in action on some delicious looking roast meats. Definitely don’t need one, but I want one.



Is it a bone chopper or bbq chopper? Looks really tall to me. I also want one but not sure which one.


----------



## kpham12

demirtasem said:


> Is it a bone chopper or bbq chopper? Looks really tall to me. I also want one but not sure which one.


Could be the BBQ chopper. Just looked it up and that one is listed at 125 mm tall and 850 grams, way too tall and heavy for me. If I were to try and justify one for home use, I’d go for one of the smaller bone choppers like the 1203 model, 112 mm tall and 620 grams.


----------



## stringer

kpham12 said:


> Could be the BBQ chopper. Just looked it up and that one is listed at 125 mm tall and 850 grams, way too tall and heavy for me. If I were to try and justify one for home use, I’d go for one of the smaller bone choppers like the 1203 model, 112 mm tall and 620 grams.



This is very true I have a giant one but I never use it because I don't have a board that can handle it. The bone chopper I've actually used the few times I've needed one for barbecue is a small vintage American one.


----------



## tostadas

stringer said:


> This is very true I have a giant one but I never use it because I don't have a board that can handle it.


Yay, more excuses to buy more stuff then


----------



## kpham12

I’ve always wanted an excuse to get a sturdy round Chinese chopping block but a lot of them are kind of tall/heavy and high maintenance.


----------



## PausedPhoenix

Reading through this thead got me all exited about cleavers again. My suien has kinda fallen by the wayside since i started working proffessionaly but spent about an hour thinning it and can safely say it's gonna get more use moving forward. 
I'm very pleased with how it turned out for my first big thinning job, slides through carrots much better now.


----------



## kpham12

PausedPhoenix said:


> Reading through this thead got me all exited about cleavers again. My suien has kinda fallen by the wayside since i started working proffessionaly but spent about an hour thinning it and can safely say it's gonna get more use moving forward.
> I'm very pleased with how it turned out for my first big thinning job, slides through carrots much better now.


The Suien is such an underrated cleaver. Just a solid hunk of monosteel with a great heat treat. Needs an hour (or maybe a couple) of thinning out of the box, but for the price, it can’t be beat. Pretty nice stock handle too.


----------



## BillHanna

cotedupy said:


> you might be a cleaver guy, but just need a _bigger_ one


I’m gonna get my **** together and ask Porto to make me a 240x120, aka fancy CCK 1101. I’ve gone from 180x75 to hopefully this monster. Size matters.


----------



## blokey

BillHanna said:


> I’m gonna get my **** together and ask Porto to make me a 240x120, aka fancy CCK 1101. I’ve gone from 180x75 to hopefully this monster. Size matters.


You cant just say that without showing us a pic, I need to see that monster.


----------



## BillHanna

blokey said:


> You cant just say that without showing us a pic, I need to see that monster.


As soon as it happens, I’ll be glad to share. Unlike @Jville and his secret rectangles


----------



## blokey

Anyone want to take a chance at this? Heard some good things about forge to table stuff.


https://www.forgetotable.com/product-page/classic-cleaver


----------



## drrayeye

Very interesting. Great product development story. Interesting American-Chinese partnership. I have questions about the steel chosen: can they get it to Rockwell 58?

Can it chop bones--at least chicken bones?


----------



## cotedupy

I was in a Chinese supermarket yesterday stocking up on industrial quantities of Laoganma (in Chinatown you can get catering size jars!), and thought I ought buy a new cleaver as well, to really emphasise how serious I was about the whole affair. And not just any cleaver, I bought a Shibazi, so now I too can have _opinions..._

They actually had both a CCK cleaver at £78, and a metal handled Leung Tim at 40 quid , but I have quite a few from those brands already. And my new Shibazi cost £11 (!)







It's 195mm x 95 in the middle and 90 at the toe and heel. Which is right at the very bottom end of what we can reasonably call a cleaver, anything smaller is just a glorified nakiri, and really one would want something larger. @BillHanna knows where it's at.

It's also stainless (40CR13); the first stainless knife I've ever bought, but they only had one model, so it is what it is.

The fit and finish is extremely good, wildly better than any cleaver I've bought before, with the exception of the Tinker Tank, if that counts. They've done a 'sandblasted' kasumi effect on it, which actually doesn't look too bad in person tbh, though will probably get completely ruined if I try to thin it.







And the handle is really nice, the whole thing has been put together extremely well. I have zero idea how anyone is making money on this, especially given I bought it from a shop bang in the middle of central London.







It's about 2mm thick at the spine, with no distal taper, and a grind that's chunky in comparison to CCK and LT. Which isn't something I mind personally, I can't be doing with namby-pamby, wafer-thin cai dao. The full tang handle also adds to the reassuring heft and solidity.













It isn't sharp, they never are. But I will report back once I've put and edge on and given it a spin. Assuming the steel's alright I think I'll probably get along with it nicely.

Also it was £11. _Eleven._


----------



## cotedupy

Oh the stickers aren't peeling off cleanly. Minus 1 point.


----------



## Noodle Soup

blokey said:


> Anyone want to take a chance at this? Heard some good things about forge to table stuff.
> 
> 
> https://www.forgetotable.com/product-page/classic-cleaver


Too small and I seriously doubt they forged that particular steel. Looks like a lot of the other cleavers you will see on Chinese websites.


----------



## cotedupy

Noodle Soup said:


> I seriously doubt they forged that particular steel.



You reckon?

If we define forging as heating something up and bashing it into shape, then I imagine they probably did, it isn't particularly difficult unless you're trying to layer the steel. And you can always take an angle grinder to something afterwards. Otherwise they'd have to be buying sheets of metal that looked like that already...

(Maybe I'm missing something...?)


----------



## drrayeye

cotedupy said:


> I was in a Chinese supermarket yesterday stocking up on industrial quantities of Laoganma (in Chinatown you can get catering size jars!), and thought I ought buy a new cleaver as well, to really emphasise how serious I was about the whole affair. And not just any cleaver, I bought a Shibazi, so now I too can have _opinions..._
> 
> They actually had both a CCK cleaver at £78, and a metal handled Leung Tim at 40 quid , but I have quite a few from those brands already. And my new Shibazi cost £11 (!)
> 
> View attachment 194317
> 
> 
> 
> It's 195mm x 95 in the middle and 90 at the toe and heel. Which is right at the very bottom end of what we can reasonably call a cleaver, anything smaller is just a glorified nakiri, and really one would want something larger. @BillHanna knows where it's at.
> 
> It's also stainless (40CR13); the first stainless knife I've ever bought, but they only had one model, so it is what it is.
> 
> The fit and finish is extremely good, wildly better than any cleaver I've bought before, with the exception of the Tinker Tank, if that counts. They've done a 'sandblasted' kasumi effect on it, which actually doesn't look too bad in person tbh, though will probably get completely ruined if I try to thin it.
> 
> View attachment 194318
> 
> 
> 
> And the handle is really nice, the whole thing has been put together extremely well. I have zero idea how anyone is making money on this, especially given I bought it from a shop bang in the middle of central London.
> 
> View attachment 194316
> 
> 
> 
> It's about 2mm thick at the spine, with no distal taper, and a grind that's chunky in comparison to CCK and LT. Which isn't something I mind personally, I can't be doing with namby-pamby, wafer-thin cai dao. The full tang handle also adds to the reassuring heft and solidity.
> 
> View attachment 194314
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 194315
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't sharp, they never are. But I will report back once I've put and edge on and given it a spin. Assuming the steel's alright I think I'll probably get along with it nicely.
> 
> Also it was £11. _Eleven._


Your reaction was very similar to mine when I bought my Shibazi f208-2. The overall appearance and initial performance of the cleaver was out of whack with the $33 I paid for it. Made no sense.


----------



## cotedupy

drrayeye said:


> Your reaction was very similar to mine when I bought my Shibazi f208-2. The overall appearance and initial performance of the cleaver was out of whack with the $33 I paid for it. Made no sense.




Very much so, it's an awful lot of very well made and finished knife for the money.

Having said that - after sharpening and trying out, I do find this grind a little thick for my tastes, it's wedging not just on carrots but on lots of other veg too. It's certainly a chopper rather than an out n out slicer, and I'll probably do some fairly extensive thinning on it I think.


p.s. If you'd like to see a reasonably in depth review of CCK and Leung Tim caidao I did one here: Chan Chi Kee vs Leung Tim (a two-part comparison)


----------



## drrayeye

Thanks a lot. Great detail and thoughtful analysis. Haven't seen the Tim Leung here. I've always been put off by the f&f on the CCK's. That's why I was so blown away by my Shibazi f208-2.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Generally speaking, is the CCK 1303 the gateway cleaver?


----------



## tostadas

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Generally speaking, is the CCK 1303 the gateway cleaver?


There's cheaper ones out there, but CCK is super thin. The cheaper cleavers tend to be thicker.


----------



## blokey

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Generally speaking, is the CCK 1303 the gateway cleaver?


At the price range, unless you can get hands on the other HongKongese brand, it is the best cutter there is. Tho I heard good things about chopper kings.


----------



## blokey

cotedupy said:


> Very much so, it's an awful lot of very well made and finished knife for the money.
> 
> Having said that - after sharpening and trying out, I do find this grind a little thick for my tastes, it's wedging not just on carrots but on lots of other veg too. It's certainly a chopper rather than an out n out slicer, and I'll probably do some fairly extensive thinning on it I think.
> 
> 
> p.s. If you'd like to see a reasonably in depth review of CCK and Leung Tim caidao I did one here: Chan Chi Kee vs Leung Tim (a two-part comparison)


Most Shibazi mass market stuff is on the thicker side and generally not that good of a cutter, really comes down to most Chinese home cooks use their knife to chop literally everything. There are some good professional knives, but mostly in 4cr13 steel.


----------



## drrayeye

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Generally speaking, is the CCK 1303 the gateway cleaver?


See:


----------



## tostadas

blokey said:


> At the price range, unless you can get hands on the other HongKongese brand, it is the best cutter there is. Tho I heard good things about chopper kings.


CCK 1303: very thin throughout, tapered spine, simple carbon that sharpens easily, comfy handle and ferrule

Shibazi f208-2: shorter than CCK, thicker throughout and significantly heavier but still not for use with bones, no spine taper, sharp corners, thick handle (too large for my hands), 80cr13 steel which is not bad for stainless, similar edge profile to CCK

Chopper king: quality steels, extreme spine taper, very thin blade but not as thin as CCK, similar handle to Shibazi, very curvy profile for a Chinese cleaver


----------



## enrico l

Any thoughts on the Kono Fm chuka?


----------



## blokey

tostadas said:


> CCK 1303: very thin throughout, tapered spine, simple carbon that sharpens easily, comfy handle and ferrule
> 
> Shibazi f208-2: shorter than CCK, thicker throughout and significantly heavier but still not for use with bones, no spine taper, sharp corners, thick handle (too large for my hands), 80cr13 steel which is not bad for stainless, similar edge profile to CCK
> 
> Chopper king: quality steels, extreme spine taper, very thin blade but not as thin as CCK, similar handle to Shibazi, very curvy profile for a Chinese cleaver


Thanks, definitely will try chopper king once the aus10 is back in stock.


----------



## blokey

enrico l said:


> Any thoughts on the Kono Fm chuka?


Wish I can afford that lol. Also eyeing the Migoto cleaver. That said there is some Tanaka cleaver floating around in the thread and they look really good.


----------



## enrico l

Are they worth that hefty price tag?


----------



## esoo

enrico l said:


> Any thoughts on the Kono Fm chuka?


I believe @Jville has one. If you search for Tanaka cleaver and his user id, you can see he seems to like it.


----------



## blokey

enrico l said:


> Are they worth that hefty price tag?


Depend on how you see it tho, you got a nice chunk of Tanaka forged blue #1 or #2 with excellent grind, and actually cheaper than Kaiju. Is it 10 times better than CCK? Probably not. But Kaiju is not 10 times better than a Tojiro either. Price wise we are really hitting diminishing return in most knives on this forum.


----------



## tostadas

enrico l said:


> Are they worth that hefty price tag?


Is any high end cleaver worth the price considering you can get a perfectly usable cleaver for around $60? By spending 10x more, you certainly don't get 10x more value. But do I enjoy using them? Hell yea!

Here's my current cleaver rotation (Chopper King is absent because it needs a new handle). You can see the CCK on the right is still hanging with the big boys.


----------



## Noodle Soup

Real Chinese chefs still place knife skills over the knife. Any most I've worked with are light years ahead of me for sure.


----------



## deltaplex

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Generally speaking, is the CCK 1303 the gateway cleaver?


I just got a carbon from Wok Shop as the gateway, pretty hard to go wrong for the price. Guess it's called the vegetable cleaver.


----------



## blokey

Noodle Soup said:


> Real Chinese chefs still place knife skills over the knife. Any most I've worked with are light years ahead of me for sure.


Being paid very little doesn't help, one of my friend in Shanghai had a line cook job only pays 3500 rmb a month, in a city a small room could cost 3000 a month. But more and more chef are doing better and getting into good knives.


----------



## timebard

enrico l said:


> Any thoughts on the Kono Fm chuka?


As luck would have it, I have one heading to me in the next week or two - will share impressions when I get it. The CCK1303 was my gateway drug and rather than slowly ramp up through mid-range options like I did with gyutos, I decided the hell with it, let's skip to the good stuff.


----------



## cotedupy

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Generally speaking, is the CCK 1303 the gateway cleaver?




If you're thinking about getting something I would recommend the CCK 1302 or equivalent Leung Tim Sangdao No.2. The former is going to be easier to get in the US.

The 1303 (imo) isn't quite tall enough, and perhaps slightly counterintuitively it makes the size a little more tricky to use than larger versions.


----------



## blokey

cotedupy said:


> If you're thinking about getting something I would recommend the CCK 1302 or equivalent Leung Tim Sangdao No.2. The former is going to be easier to get in the US.
> 
> The 1303 (imo) isn't quite tall enough, and perhaps slightly counterintuitively it makes the size a little more tricky to use than larger versions.


Also Fook Kee just got on CKTG, wa handle only tho. Razorsharp in Singapore have the traditional version and ship them world wide.


----------



## blokey

All these talking get me kind thirsty so I got some Fook Kee large slicer from razor sharp, cost around $115 sgd and $36 sgd for shipping. Still not sure who is Kee but I like that they are passionate about it.
Will update once it arrives.


----------



## drrayeye

tostadas said:


> Is any high end cleaver worth the price considering you can get a perfectly usable cleaver for around $60? By spending 10x more, you certainly don't get 10x more value. But do I enjoy using them? Hell yea!
> 
> Here's my current cleaver rotation (Chopper King is absent because it needs a new handle). You can see the CCK on the right is still hanging with the big boys.


Great rotation, Tostadas. What kind of work do you do with them?


----------



## tostadas

drrayeye said:


> Great rotation, Tostadas. What kind of work do you do with them?


Pretty much everything, except fruits which I prefer either a 90mm or 180mm for.


----------



## cooktocut

enrico l said:


> Are they worth that hefty price tag?


If you have to ask, then probably not for you. Those of us who really love cleavers don’t care how much they cost compared to those ugly CCK beasts


----------



## enrico l

cooktocut said:


> If you have to ask, then probably not for you. Those of us who really love cleavers don’t care how much they cost compared to those ugly CCK beasts


Its was just interesting to me because they are quite rare and a FM line. Didn’t know what your guys thoughts were who like cleavers a lot.


----------



## cotedupy

blokey said:


> All these talking get me kind thirsty so I got some Fook Kee large slicer from razor sharp, cost around $115 sgd and $36 sgd for shipping. Still not sure who is Kee but I like that they are passionate about it.
> Will update once it arrives.View attachment 194814




Now _there's _a proper size cai dao! Look forward to hearing the verdict...


----------



## Noodle Soup

cotedupy said:


> If you're thinking about getting something I would recommend the CCK 1302 or equivalent Leung Tim Sangdao No.2. The former is going to be easier to get in the US.
> 
> The 1303 (imo) isn't quite tall enough, and perhaps slightly counterintuitively it makes the size a little more tricky to use than larger versions.


I would second that. Much prefer the 1302 and Leung Tim Sangdao No. 2. to the 1303. The 1301 is a real beast though.


----------



## Perzua

I want cleaver too !!  

What would you recommend ? 

CCK Small Cleaver KF1303​Chopper King VG10 Small Slicer 210mm​
I can take two  

or one:









Gesshin Stainless 220mm Chinese Cleaver


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin Stainless 220mm Chinese Cleaver is designed for all-purpose use. It is about the size and weight of a #6 cleaver and is pretty much a stainless version of the Suien VC Chinese cleaver we carry. It's relatively tough and durable, has...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com





I think i prefer something stainless but carbon will be good too


----------



## blokey

Perzua said:


> I want cleaver too !!
> 
> What would you recommend ?
> 
> CCK Small Cleaver KF1303​Chopper King VG10 Small Slicer 210mm​
> I can take two
> 
> or one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gesshin Stainless 220mm Chinese Cleaver
> 
> 
> Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin Stainless 220mm Chinese Cleaver is designed for all-purpose use. It is about the size and weight of a #6 cleaver and is pretty much a stainless version of the Suien VC Chinese cleaver we carry. It's relatively tough and durable, has...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.japaneseknifeimports.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think i prefer something stainless but carbon will be good too


The Gesshin is kind different from other two, it is a full size cleaver, you cut by using its own weight to drop in things, it might be too heavy if this is your first one, but you also might just like it, steel is good, f&f at JKI is always good. The first 2 are more similar, kind comes down to stainless or carbon, I'd actually go for CCK 1302 instead of 1303, still light but more length. Those 2 are in the SangDao/light slicer territory, which you have to push cut them with the help of your own force, but the thing geometry just cuts awesome and very addicting.


----------



## Perzua

220 mm length is max
Weight does not matter


----------



## natto

@Perzua 
From Poland this taiwanese knife might be of interest. About 215*105, 370g, thin grind, flat profile. Low reactivity indicates some chromium in the steel. I love it.

A german forum got some pictures.


----------



## blokey

natto said:


> @Perzua
> From Poland this taiwanese knife might be of interest. About 215*105, 370g, thin grind, flat profile. Low reactivity indicates some chromium in the steel. I love it.
> 
> A german forum got some pictures.


Interesting, sadly not many smaller Taiwanese shops don't sell their stuff overseas, they make some interesting stuff with Hitachi blue and white steels.


----------



## Perzua

natto said:


> @Perzua
> From Poland this taiwanese knife might be of interest. About 215*105, 370g, thin grind, flat profile. Low reactivity indicates some chromium in the steel. I love it.
> 
> A german forum got some pictures.


Witch one ?


----------



## natto

Ups, missing link.

ShinShun from ugou.de


----------



## Perzua

natto said:


> Ups, missing link.
> 
> ShinShun from ugou.de



Damn, €35,99 ? Really ? It will works ?


----------



## JASinIL2006

That looks like a nice, cheap cleaver, but the CCK 1303 is the classic 'gateway cleaver.'


----------



## natto

Perzua said:


> Damn, €35,99 ? Really ? It will works ?


At least it is a pretty good first cleaver, without wasting money. So far no one was disappointed. Some strokes on a fine stone to clean up the edge, and the knife is ready to cut. Cutting performance is like Robert Herders simple carbon series. Only the edge lasts longer.

Have fun



JASinIL2006 said:


> That looks like a nice, cheap cleaver, but the CCK 1303 is the classic 'gateway cleaver.'


From Germany it is a third of a cck. From reading it should be in the same league. But I can't compare them dirctly.


----------



## natto

I like local shops. Between two jobs there was time to check every exotic shop I saw, to check for ingredients and tools. Most shops are relatet to a region and offer some unique stuff from there. That knife is from about two or more decades ago. Boat people from Vietnam and others showed me some cooking. I knew where to buy, and they showed me how to use. Crazy and great times.


With enough time and no money I missed to take a chop block. That might have been the last proper chop block available, a unicorn in germany. From time to time some nice things come and go, without much notice from us. Thats ok to me, nice tools should be used. At least I was lucky enough to start with a good cleaver. Now that knife is available online. At least one of this reasonable cleavers is available from Germany. Or within Europe.


It looks like there are less offers for reasonable carbon cleavers from year to year So I recommended that knife on german forums, to push the demand. That worked like a charm. The knife sold off and came back a few times. Now it might be available as long as its made. (fingers crossed)




blokey said:


> Interesting, sadly not many smaller Taiwanese shops don't sell their stuff overseas, they make some interesting stuff with Hitachi blue and white steels.


Yes, same situation here. But you never know what shows up in local shops. One batch of ccks was sold local at crazy good prices.

The steel of that knife is not reactive. It might be semi stainless, about 5% chromium. Lots of citrus can build patina and color it from grey to black. Some scrubbing every other week can keep the knife from building patina. But no idea where they buy steel.


TsienYen offers a few knives from Taiwan. I like the shop for offering different sizes. The model Taiwan is thicker at the edge than the ChinShun from Ugou. And the small belly needs a different cutting motion. It would benefit from some thinning... Looks like a modern production with a little more abuse resistance, nothing special.


The Chin Shun looks more handmade with a nice thin grind. And my knives from Taiwan got a rest for index and thumb. The thin part of the blade is ground across to the choil. Quick and dirty pics of the model Taiwan grip area:














There is a slight hollow grind to support the pinch grip. And there are stamped phone numbers on taiwanese knives.


----------



## blokey

cotedupy said:


> Now _there's _a proper size cai dao! Look forward to hearing the verdict...


Sorry I actually backed out, I just can't find any information of them in Chinese, the only thing I can find is that they are founded in 2015 with minimum required start up fund....It did not mean that they are not an old manufacturer or anything, it could be they just registered for the brand. Most of their product online are sold overseas, maybe they only sell them in store in China or Hong Kong. Also I got a NOS Toyama iron clad Nakiri, absolutely tap chop monster, really different from all my other knives include CCK, really had a lot of fun preparing dinner with it.


----------



## Jville

blokey said:


> Sorry I actually backed out, I just can't find any information of them in Chinese, the only thing I can find is that they are founded in 2015 with minimum required start up fund....It did not mean that they are not an old manufacturer or anything, it could be they just registered for the brand. Most of their product online are sold overseas, maybe they only sell them in store in China or Hong Kong. Also I got a NOS Toyama iron clad Nakiri, absolutely tap chop monster, really different from all my other knives include CCK, really had a lot of fun preparing dinner with it.


I’ll be honest the Toyama 210 nakiri is one of my favorite knives that I have ever used. If ever a nakiri could be a daily driver for me this is it. I sold a bunch of knives and kept it. I knew if I cleared out my knives it is one that I would use a lot. I just shaved a bunch of onions with it the other day.


----------



## Noodle Soup

Jville said:


> I’ll be honest the Toyama 210 nakiri is one of my favorite knives that I have ever used. If ever a nakiri could be a daily driver for me this is it. I sold a bunch of knives and kept it. I knew if I cleared out my knives it is one that I would use a lot. I just shaved a bunch of onions with it the other day.


Just goes to show everyone has their own personal tastes. I pretty much hated my Toyama 210. Sold it to a fellow forum member and never looked back. I just found it too big for a nakiri and and too small for a Chinese cleaver.


----------



## Jville

Noodle Soup said:


> Just goes to show everyone has their own personal tastes. I pretty much hated my Toyama 210. Sold it to a fellow forum member and never looked back. I just found it too big for a nakiri and and too small for a Chinese cleaver.


Yeah, very true. It’s about perspective. For me, it has the power of a small cleaver in this compact package. 165/180 nakiris feel more limited to me. I really only crave to use, especially 165mm, when I’m doing something like a case of small mushrooms. With the Toyama, I feel like you can attack an all around prep list. It has enough length to use on 1 of almost anything, enough power to aid in cutting, nimble enough to use in variety of ingredients, and the combo of very forward balance and that grind drops through ingredients as effortlessly as anything I’ve had my hands on. And since it’s bigger you get better scooping than a small nakiri, although that’s where it lacks from a small cleaver. Plus awesome edge retention.


----------



## blokey

Jville said:


> Yeah, very true. It’s about perspective. For me, it has the power of a small cleaver in this compact package. 165/180 nakiris feel more limited to me. I really only crave to use, especially 165mm, when I’m doing something like a case of small mushrooms. With the Toyama, I feel like you can attack an all around prep list. It has enough length to use on 1 of almost anything, enough power to aid in cutting, nimble enough to use in variety of ingredients, and the combo of very forward balance and that grind drops through ingredients as effortlessly as anything I’ve had my hands on. And since it’s bigger you get better scooping than a small nakiri, although that’s where it lacks from a small cleaver. Plus awesome edge retention.


It's just super fun for me to tap chop everything with it, something I always find kind lacking in 165mm and some 180mm nakiri, while CCK is nice I just find it leaning more towards push cut for me with the overall super thin blade.


----------



## Jville

blokey said:


> It's just super fun for me to tap chop everything with it, something I always find kind lacking in 165mm and some 180mm nakiri, while CCK is nice I just find it leaning more towards push cut for me with the overall super thin blade.


Plus CCK, is not going to hold the same type of edge, so I feel like it lends to slicing, not that you can’t chop with it of course. But having a certain sharpness helps on chopping


----------



## tostadas

Jville said:


> Plus CCK, is not going to hold the same type of edge, so I feel like it lends to slicing, not that you can’t chop with it of course. But having a certain sharpness helps on chopping


I agree the shape and overall package of the CCK is great. But the steel itself leaves much to be desired compared to nicer knife steels


----------



## blokey

tostadas said:


> I agree the shape and overall package of the CCK is great. But the steel itself leaves much to be desired compared to nicer knife steels


I'd pay a lot for a magnacut cck, or just 52100 or aebl...


----------



## tostadas

blokey said:


> I'd pay a lot for a magnacut cck, or just 52100 or aebl...


My Markin cleaver is essentially a pimped out CCK in 52100


----------



## blokey

tostadas said:


> My Markin cleaver is essentially a pimped out CCK in 52100


I'm still on the waitlist, hopefully soon...


----------



## demirtasem

I was chopping some carnitas today at work and was thinking about CCK’s. Because I’m really new on cleavers I need to be enlightened. Which option should be better for chopping meat in pro kitchen environment with regular cutting boards; Kau Kong(1400s), BBQ Chopper(1500s) or Bone Chopper(1600s). In theory, bone chopper is more versatile, heavy, also great for bones. However, it may be super heavy, not really usable though. (I think I can’t see how heavy they are on website.) I’m using a cheap dexter slicer and an asian market chopper for almost everything. They are ok though, I actually don’t need a new one. However, why not if a bone chopper can do the job. Maybe I need even two of them maybe?


----------



## Noodle Soup

demirtasem said:


> I was chopping some carnitas today at work and was thinking about CCK’s. Because I’m really new on cleavers I need to be enlightened. Which option should be better for chopping meat in pro kitchen environment with regular cutting boards; Kau Kong(1400s), BBQ Chopper(1500s) or Bone Chopper(1600s). In theory, bone chopper is more versatile, heavy, also great for bones. However, it may be super heavy, not really usable though. (I think I can’t see how heavy they are on website.) I’m using a cheap dexter slicer and an asian market chopper for almost everything. They are ok though, I actually don’t need a new one. However, why not if a bone chopper can do the job. Maybe I need even two of them maybe?


Sounds like the CCK BBQ might be your best choice. I have one but I tend to use a medium weight all metal cleaver(Rice Knife brand) I picked up in Malaysia or a Sugimoto No. 7 more for finely dicing meat.


----------



## Jville

Sap Vua


demirtasem said:


> I was chopping some carnitas today at work and was thinking about CCK’s. Because I’m really new on cleavers I need to be enlightened. Which option should be better for chopping meat in pro kitchen environment with regular cutting boards; Kau Kong(1400s), BBQ Chopper(1500s) or Bone Chopper(1600s). In theory, bone chopper is more versatile, heavy, also great for bones. However, it may be super heavy, not really usable though. (I think I can’t see how heavy they are on website.) I’m using a cheap dexter slicer and an asian market chopper for almost everything. They are ok though, I actually don’t need a new one. However, why not if a bone chopper can do the job. Maybe I need even two of them maybe?


Dao Vuo makes a good heavy cleaver. I got one from Bernal cutlery. It would be good for chopping meat. I’ve used it to grind meat and I’ve also broken down large veal bones with it. It’s pretty inexpensive also.


----------



## Xunzi

Looking for a hardcore cleaver. Basically to destroy bones or cut open green coconuts. Just short of a machete in other words. Preferably, rustic looking, i.e. mirror polish is not the look I'm going for. Any suggestions?


----------



## blokey

Xunzi said:


> Looking for a hardcore cleaver. Basically to destroy bones or cut open green coconuts. Just short of a machete in other words. Preferably, rustic looking, i.e. mirror polish is not the look I'm going for. Any suggestions?


Tbh a hand saw would work better for those task.


----------



## Xunzi

blokey said:


> Tbh a hand saw would work better for those task.



Any suggestions for a Japanese-made, rustic looking handsaw? ;-)


----------



## deltaplex

Those leaf spring machetes made in Vietnam come to mind as a good option.


----------



## Xunzi

I used to have a good machete. But in all honesty, are you telling me that cleavers cant handle a green coconut? We're talking fresh coconut, few chops and the scalp is off.


----------



## tostadas

I'd say any $10 medium thickness cleaver from the super market will do. That's what I use for coconuts


----------



## blokey

Xunzi said:


> Any suggestions for a Japanese-made, rustic looking handsaw? ;-)


Sorry really not my thing... But as Tostada said most cleaver would work for green coconut, I'm commenting more on the bone part, depends what kind of bone you want to cut, for larger beef bones hand saw works a lot better and safer, for large poultry and smaller pork bones a good heavy cleaver would be nice.


----------



## Jville

Xunzi said:


> Looking for a hardcore cleaver. Basically to destroy bones or cut open green coconuts. Just short of a machete in other words. Preferably, rustic looking, i.e. mirror polish is not the look I'm going for. Any suggestions?


Dao Vuo heavy cleaver cones to mind. Had one in stock at Bernal.


----------



## Xunzi

Jville said:


> Dao Vuo heavy cleaver cones to mind. Had one in stock at Bernal.



Nice! Looks the part. Just worried it might be a tad long..


----------



## Xunzi

blokey said:


> Sorry really not my thing... But as Tostada said most cleaver would work for green coconut, I'm commenting more on the bone part, depends what kind of bone you want to cut, for larger beef bones hand saw works a lot better and safer, for large poultry and smaller pork bones a good heavy cleaver would be nice.



Ok, got you, no, would not need to work any larger beef bones. Will look into a heavy cleaver.


----------



## Perzua

Jville said:


> Dao Vuo heavy cleaver cones to mind. Had one in stock at Bernal.



This one ?






Chinese Cleaver


Chinese Cleaver Chinese cleaver Blade length: 210 mm



www.cleancut.eu





More info ?


----------



## Jville

Perzua said:


> This one ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chinese Cleaver
> 
> 
> Chinese Cleaver Chinese cleaver Blade length: 210 mm
> 
> 
> 
> www.cleancut.eu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More info ?


Hey that one seems like it is the veg cleaver(thin). Check Bernal, it says heavy on their site. Or I guess you could ask cleancut, which one it is, because I don’t think it says it on there.


----------



## Xunzi

What type of board are you using for your cleavers? Seems a bit rude to chop up a hinoki…


----------



## mengwong

blokey said:


> green coconut



With a couple more bits of steel you can do this






#duet with @marcelofjif what a game changer!!! #coconuts | TikTok


602.8K Likes, 1.5K Comments. TikTok video from Collette (@torinasan): "#duet with @marcelofjif what a game changer!!! #coconuts". Original Sound - Unknown.




vt.tiktok.com


----------



## Xunzi

mengwong said:


> With a couple more bits of steel you can do this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #duet with @marcelofjif what a game changer!!! #coconuts | TikTok
> 
> 
> 602.8K Likes, 1.5K Comments. TikTok video from Collette (@torinasan): "#duet with @marcelofjif what a game changer!!! #coconuts". Original Sound - Unknown.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vt.tiktok.com



I can't decide whether this is funny or disturbing.


----------



## BillHanna

I forgot to put this here. I’m gonna get The Eye. Worth it.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Naozumi Chukka Bocho Chinese Cleaver Carbon Steel


Chukka bocho or Japanese style Chinese cleaver with SK carbon steel blade and rosewood handle, great for vegetables and boneless meat. While the term ‘Chinese cleaver’ is used for this general style of knife “Chinese chef knife’ might be better as these are not heavy like a butcher’s cleaver and...




bernalcutlery.com


----------



## tostadas

BillHanna said:


> View attachment 199069
> 
> I forgot to put this here. I’m gonna get The Eye. Worth it.


Hope you hate it too


----------



## baggyjorts

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Naozumi Chukka Bocho Chinese Cleaver Carbon Steel
> 
> 
> Chukka bocho or Japanese style Chinese cleaver with SK carbon steel blade and rosewood handle, great for vegetables and boneless meat. While the term ‘Chinese cleaver’ is used for this general style of knife “Chinese chef knife’ might be better as these are not heavy like a butcher’s cleaver and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bernalcutlery.com


Those are intriguing! Would be interested to see how they compare to suien as an entry-level japanese-made cleaver. Bit cheaper, flatter profile, and a bit heftier (my 220x108mm suien is 420 grams even). If anyone is tempted enough to try it out, let us know!


----------



## boomchakabowwow

cut up some garden veggies and decided to hone my CCK. sure the steel is very basic. boring almost. but mine holds a pretty good edge. it is by far the easiest blade to sharpen EVER. I still love the thing and it dominates my cutting board time. I love slapping a garlic glove into a flat paste. finish off the paste with a few rocking cuts and it darn near dissolves into cooking dishes. mine is looking fairly tattered. the deep black section fades into the grey section (probably from some over zealous scrubbing). it has remnants of a rust mark. gah, this thing is so sharp. my dinner guest that cut with it can't believe how inexpensive it is. I thin sliced a tri-tip roast with it. to be honest, it is a crappy butter or peanut butter spreader. 




I seriously need to clean up these leaves!!


----------



## blokey

Something new on CKC, seems more like a large nakiri to me.








Hinokuni White #1 Chuka 180mm


Yukihiro Sakai is a 31 year old blacksmith from the Kumamoto prefecture. He was a former apprentice of famed blacksmith Nishida San. This series is made from hammer forged Shirogami #1 laminated in soft iron. These should be pure joy to sharpen and come out of the box with really thin cutting...




carbonknifeco.com


----------



## 4wa1l

It would be nice if there were more options like this in the cck 1303/2 size. 215x95 ish mm. Seems like there are quite a few taller nakiris or full size cleavers but very little in between.


----------



## boomchakabowwow

4wa1l said:


> It would be nice if there were more options like this in the cck 1303/2 size. 215x95 ish mm. Seems like there are quite a few taller nakiris or full size cleavers but very little in between.


I have a bigger cleaver from Taiwan. It might be better than the CCK, but it’s bigger. I don’t like bigger. it’s sharper for sure. If/when I get to Taipei my MIL promise to take me to the factory. I’m looking for a smaller one.


----------



## blokey

Been play with the Sakai Kikumori Gokujo for a while now, one of the better if not the best large cleaver I've had, very good grind without being too thin like CCK sangdao.


----------



## BillHanna




----------



## 4wa1l

BillHanna said:


> View attachment 201924


How are you liking the new tall nakiri?


----------



## BillHanna

Cleaver by a hair. It made short work of a pork loin.


----------



## 4wa1l

I'm just playing. It's well and truly a cleaver in my eyes : )


----------



## BillHanna

4wa1l said:


> I'm just playing. It's well and truly a cleaver in my eyes : )


I know trollwork when I see it.


----------



## BillHanna

I consider myself provisionally on Hyde’s list for a full size friend. I think I’m gonna try and catch as many Swedes as fiscally possible. Cleaver and cleaver adjacent.


----------



## kpham12

A little challenging using cleavers on the taller countertops at home vs lower prep tables at work, but I managed to get some cooking in this weekend. Sugimoto #6 doing a regular onion dice for a sauce yesterday and Tojiro F-631 doing a slightly finer dice for some garnishes. Both thinned, but the Sugimoto has a nicer tip area while the Tojiro has a flatter profile that’s easier to use for most people. I thought the stainless handle on the Tojiro would be weird and slippery, but it’s actually pretty comfortable.


----------



## IsoJ

BillHanna said:


> View attachment 199069
> 
> I forgot to put this here. I’m gonna get The Eye. Worth it.


Who is the maker? Looks great


----------



## BillHanna

Lars Kallgren


----------



## BillHanna

"

*sweats profusely*


----------



## blokey

CKTG has some DaoVua 52100 cleaver, which they say are imported from US. 52100 always seems like the perfect carbon steel for cleaver to me, but I've had pretty bad experience with Dao Vua. Some people do report their quality got better recently.


----------



## tostadas

blokey said:


> CKTG has some DaoVua 52100 cleaver, which they say are imported from US. 52100 always seems like the perfect carbon steel for cleaver to me, but I've had pretty bad experience with Dao Vua. Some people do report their quality got better recently.


Cleaver + Cheap = Do it


----------



## BillHanna




----------



## kpham12

Lol, I was literally thinking @BillHanna probably already bought one. Looks good for a $75 slab of 52100. How’s it sharpen?


----------



## BillHanna

Just got it yesterday. Haven’t even used it yet.


----------



## blokey

BillHanna said:


> View attachment 205045
> View attachment 205046
> View attachment 205047
> View attachment 205048
> View attachment 205049


That's quick


----------



## BillHanna

blokey said:


> That's quick


Prince Square, at your service.


----------



## BillHanna

I’ll take pics of the current family in the morning.


----------



## BillHanna

BillHanna said:


> I’ll take pics of the current family in the morning.


Dang. I forgot to do this. I’ll set an alarm for tomorrow morning.


----------



## BillHanna

Spåre, Lars, Dao Vua, CCK 1303 and 1102


----------



## ZeeVee

Bill, you see what Catcheside has cookin'?


----------



## BillHanna

ZeeVee said:


> Bill, you see what Catcheside has cookin'?


ridiculous
completely


----------



## tostadas

*Shibata Tinker Tank Review*

I got this guy in not long ago and only just recently had a chance to test it for a couple meals. I'm not sure quite how to categorize it, since it falls somewhere in between a cleaver and a gyuto. 189mm x 89mm

When you hold it, it feels like a cleaver due to the weight and thickness. It's about 370g with this handle, and spine goes from around 4.6mm to 4.0mm. Fit and finish, like all Shibata knives I've had, is excellent. Spine is nicely rounded and fully polished, and choil as well. I opted to put my own handle which I modified and cleaned up from my Takeda cleaver. I played around with different lengths for the neck, and preferred it to be set up closer to the choil, more like a Chinese cleaver rather than a typical gyuto. (Shibata gyuto handles I've had were all very well done, but I was personally not a big fan of the color scheme that typically comes with the Tank.)

The grind is relatively flat up to the shinogi. It's similar to a medium weight gyuto behind the edge, but of course thickens up quite a bit as you get to mid height on the blade. The profile is on the curvier side for a cleaver, but I do think it works well for this knife because it effectively adds additional edge length if you do like slicing motions.

Finally the most important part of this whole review is the actual performance. This is where the knife really made me happy, because it's such a unique experience. When using it like a cleaver, the mass just plows its way through stuff. It will crack carrots like nothing. Very authoritative blade. Food release is not bad, but the flat-ish grind can sometimes make wet stuff stick. But it's a tank and literally does not care. The interesting part about this knife is the tip, which is more like a bunka. It ghosts through dense stuff like onions and root veggies like a laser. So depending on which part of the blade you use, it's almost like two completely different knives.

I haven't used it enough to comment too much on the steel, other than it's aogami super and it feels really hard.

So that's all for now. Really fun knife. Here's some pics.


----------



## wabi

Wow...just wow. I have one on order from them, and they told me it would be a year until delivery. That was about 3 months ago. I will wait patiently...


----------



## BillHanna

BillHanna said:


> View attachment 205330
> 
> 
> Spåre, Lars, Dao Vua, CCK 1303 and 1102


For the record 

A big nakiri, three small cleavers, and a regular cleaver.


----------



## BillHanna

ZeeVee said:


> Bill, you see what Catcheside has cookin'?


Two thousand American dollars


----------



## blokey

I wish I'm An


----------



## ZeeVee

BillHanna said:


> Two thousand American dollars



Can one really put a price on really, incredibly rectangular rectangles? I think not.


----------



## BillHanna

blokey said:


> I wish I'm An
> View attachment 205653
> View attachment 205654


I didn’t see the name, or recognize it as one lol. I commented that I’d take it.


----------



## blokey

Taking advantages of double 11 sale on AliExpress I just bought this monster from Dengjia, a more well known manufacturer based in Chong Qing, their sale is more Sichuanese with thick T-spine. Of course I still don't advocate buying random stuff off AliExpress but this should be fine. Had a smaller one from them before, super rustic and rough but more fun than any stainless stuff I had, the steel is ok, better than the regular stuff you found on supermarket cleavers. Also got a stabby butcher knife from them to round out the order and for fun.


----------



## blokey

Looks interesting








Ikenami Hamono Chuka-bocho 210mm


Free worldwide shipping. Hand-forged chuka-bocho chinese cleaver from Ikenami Hamono and Knife Japan. Visit to see our extensive selection of handcrafted Japanese knives.




knifejapan.com


----------



## BillHanna

blokey said:


> Looks interesting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ikenami Hamono Chuka-bocho 210mm
> 
> 
> Free worldwide shipping. Hand-forged chuka-bocho chinese cleaver from Ikenami Hamono and Knife Japan. Visit to see our extensive selection of handcrafted Japanese knives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> knifejapan.com


I WAS LOOKING AT THAT EARLIER. And that cute lil 150 nakiri. I also found a 150mm bone cleaver on their instagram from a few years ago. I’m going to inquire about getting one of those, next year.


----------



## BillHanna

@blokey Are you getting curved or flat?


----------



## blokey

BillHanna said:


> @blokey Are you getting curved or flat?


TBH both work for me, I'm not sure if I'm going to get it tho, just exhausted my saving on a good office chair.


----------



## BillHanna

There’s always next year!


----------



## xsmx13

I'm guessing not, but do gigantoku count as cleavers?


----------



## blokey

I just asked Michael from Knife Japan, interestingly Ikenami cleaver can be actually customized according to needs.


----------



## BillHanna

xsmx13 said:


> I'm guessing not, but do gigantoku count as cleavers?


I checked with the judges, and they are concerned including them makes way for bunkas to be nakiri. They’re in a no man’s land with tinker tanks.


----------



## xsmx13

BillHanna said:


> I checked with the judges, and they are concerned including them makes way for bunkas to be nakiri. They’re in a no man’s land with tinker tanks.


Fair, it was the inclusion of the tinker tank in the thread that made me wonder.


----------



## BillHanna

I mean, that’s just like, my opinion man.


----------



## xsmx13

BillHanna said:


> I mean, that’s just like, my opinion man.


But you're the Crown Prince of Rectangles!


----------



## BillHanna

xsmx13 said:


> But you're the Crown Prince of Rectangles!


Exactly. Not the King. Maybe @cotedupy or @jonnachang or @tostadas or @Jville. All better choices for the throne.


----------



## Greasylake

Speaking of Knife Japan, this one was a custom that Michael helped someone else order. I'm sure the gentlemen at Kurotori would be happy to make another if @BillHanna asked nicely


----------



## tostadas

BillHanna said:


> Exactly. Not the King. Maybe @cotedupy or @jonnachang or @tostadas or @Jville. All better choices for the throne.


I call not it. Don't need the wife asking any more questions.


----------



## blokey

Just found this


----------



## M1k3

blokey said:


> Just found this



@BillHanna


----------



## BillHanna

M1k3 said:


> @BillHanna


nah.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Did you guys see the @KAMON Knives green handled cleaver?

I'm not big rectangle guy but that thing is beautiful.


----------



## BillHanna

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Did you guys see the @KAMON Knives green handled cleaver?
> 
> I'm not big rectangle guy but that thing is beautiful.


 Hmm. Lookin' kinda nakiri to me. I'll need measurements before I pass judgement.


----------



## NotAddictedYet

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Did you guys see the @KAMON Knives green handled cleaver?
> 
> I'm not big rectangle guy but that thing is beautiful.


That green though...not for me.


----------



## drrayeye

Deng composite cleavers


blokey said:


> Taking advantages of double 11 sale on AliExpress I just bought this monster from Dengjia, a more well known manufacturer based in Chong Qing, their sale is more Sichuanese with thick T-spine. Of course I still don't advocate buying random stuff off AliExpress but this should be fine. Had a smaller one from them before, super rustic and rough but more fun than any stainless stuff I had, the steel is ok, better than the regular stuff you found on supermarket cleavers. Also got a stabby butcher knife from them to round out the order and for fun.
> View attachment 207875


 The Deng composite line of cleavers is a clear alternative to the Shibazi/CCK. Because of their composite construction approach, they are heavier, but well balanced. The whole line of products are very interesting.

Looking forward to your comments and evaluation.


----------



## superworrier

drrayeye said:


> Deng composite cleavers
> 
> The Deng composite line of cleavers is a clear alternative to the Shibazi/CCK. Because of their composite construction approach, they are heavier, but well balanced. The whole line of products are very interesting.
> 
> Looking forward to your comments and evaluation.


Why is composite construction heavier? What does composite construction mean?


----------



## BillHanna

drrayeye said:


> Deng composite cleavers
> 
> The Deng composite line of cleavers is a clear alternative to the Shibazi/CCK. Because of their composite construction approach, they are heavier, but well balanced. The whole line of products are very interesting.
> 
> Looking forward to your comments and evaluation.


Are they RustyBois or stainless?


----------



## blokey

superworrier said:


> Why is composite construction heavier? What does composite construction mean?


It's just Sanmai/Warikomi, called Sanhe/三合 (3 pieces) in Chinese, pretty common in old forging technique. It has nothing to do with weight, the actual form factor has more to do with it. Dengjia is using the older technique of inserting one piece of hard steel in to splited soft iron billet, while modern technique is weld prelaminted piece to a softer stainless back like this.


----------



## blokey

BillHanna said:


> Are they RustyBois or stainless?


Rusty as hell, fun to sharpen tho. The grind is not good, but better than most aliexpress ****, being carbon steel give a lot of wiggle room.


----------



## KAMON Knives

BillHanna said:


> Hmm. Lookin' kinda nakiri to me. I'll need measurements before I pass judgement.


230x80mm at ~450g. It's not the classical cleaver measurements, but I think it's more a cleaver than a nakiri at this size? At least it feels and cuts like a cleaver due to weight and heel height. 

Normally I make my 80mm heel height cleavers only 200mm long. That looks more cleaverish. Generally I lately tend to go smaller because full size really is only for the freaks I've learned. 230x100mm is what I go for with the proper big ones but most lay persons can't handle that .


----------



## Jville

KAMON Knives said:


> 230x80mm at ~450g. It's not the classical cleaver measurements, but I think it's more a cleaver than a nakiri at this size? At least it feels and cuts like a cleaver due to weight and heel height.
> 
> Normally I make my 80mm heel height cleavers only 200mm long. That looks more cleaverish. Generally I lately tend to go smaller because full size really is only for the freaks I've learned. 230x100mm is what I go for with the proper big ones but most lay persons can't handle that .


To make sure it’s not a nakiri, you should make one for me just to be sure it’s a cleaver.


----------



## BillHanna

I, personally, am torn. The height is nagging at my pedantry.


----------



## spaceconvoy

it's closer to nakiri proportions. my toyama (180x60) is 3:1, and this thing is 2.9 :1

meganakiri


----------



## ch_br

spaceconvoy said:


> it's closer to nakiri proportions. my toyama (180x60) is 3:1, and this thing is 2.9 :1
> 
> meganakiri



I like to call em Nikleavers


----------



## KAMON Knives

Jville said:


> To make sure it’s not a nakiri, you should make one for me just to be sure it’s a cleaver.


Are you able to enforce it beeing called a cleaver in this forum? If so, I might consider .


----------



## M1k3

KAMON Knives said:


> Are you able to enforce it beeing called a cleaver in this forum? If so, I might consider .


If it's Serbian, yes, definitely yes!


----------



## blokey

spaceconvoy said:


> it's closer to nakiri proportions. my toyama (180x60) is 3:1, and this thing is 2.9 :1
> 
> meganakiri


This thing is close to a 2 








Yoshimitsu Kajiya Nakiri-bocho 155mm Shirogami #2


Free worldwide shipping. Hand-forged nakiri-bocho from Yoshimitsu Kajiya and Knife Japan. Visit to see our extensive selection of handcrafted Japanese knives.




knifejapan.com


----------



## spaceconvoy

blokey said:


> This thing is close to a 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yoshimitsu Kajiya Nakiri-bocho 155mm Shirogami #2
> 
> 
> Free worldwide shipping. Hand-forged nakiri-bocho from Yoshimitsu Kajiya and Knife Japan. Visit to see our extensive selection of handcrafted Japanese knives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> knifejapan.com



"Not, not a chuka bocho (chinese cleaver). The creator, Ide san, was at pains to stress that his tall nakiri _is_ a nakiri, so it's not for thumping through duck necks.

"Instead it's designed to impart the cutting feel of the nakiri's thin blade *with additional weight for effortless slicing, dicing and chopping*."

yo that's just a cleaver


----------



## blokey

spaceconvoy said:


> "Not, not a chuka bocho (chinese cleaver). The creator, Ide san, was at pains to stress that his tall nakiri _is_ a nakiri, so it's not for thumping through duck necks.
> 
> "Instead it's designed to impart the cutting feel of the nakiri's thin blade *with additional weight for effortless slicing, dicing and chopping*."
> 
> yo that's just a cleaver


That’s not for us mere mortals to decide, I will wait for @BillHanna ‘s judgement.


----------



## spaceconvoy

I will accept the prince's royal decree


----------



## BillHanna

*NAKIRI*





That I’m going to order. ‘scute


----------



## Jville

KAMON Knives said:


> Are you able to enforce it beeing called a cleaver in this forum? If so, I might consider .


I will make it happen. It shall be called a cleaver.


----------



## BillHanna

BillHanna said:


> View attachment 205330
> 
> 
> Spåre, Lars, Dao Vua, CCK 1303 and 1102


This photo will be updated soon.


----------



## 4wa1l

blokey said:


> Looks interesting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ikenami Hamono Chuka-bocho 210mm
> 
> 
> Free worldwide shipping. Hand-forged chuka-bocho chinese cleaver from Ikenami Hamono and Knife Japan. Visit to see our extensive selection of handcrafted Japanese knives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> knifejapan.com


Mine arrived but haven't used it yet. I asked for the flat version but it's not totally flat and still has some slight curve. It's got some heft to it! I think this might be able to handle some tougher tasks. Maybe a bit more like a #7 full size.

I ordered it custom after emailing Michael at Knife Japan who was very helpful. I'd be curious to see if they could make a thinner version but will see how this one goes first.

210 mm length 
85-90 mm height 
430g







@BillHanna tall nakiri or small cleaver ha?!


----------



## BillHanna

…………….


Small Cleaver


----------



## superworrier

4wa1l said:


> Mine arrived but haven't used it yet. I asked for the flat version but it's not totally flat and still has some slight curve. It's got some heft to it! I think this might be able to handle some tougher tasks. Maybe a bit more like a #7 full size.
> 
> I ordered it custom after emailing Michael at Knife Japan who was very helpful. I'd be curious to see if they could make a thinner version but will see how this one goes first.
> 
> 210 mm length
> 85-90 mm height
> 430g
> 
> View attachment 210249
> 
> 
> @BillHanna tall nakiri or small cleaver ha?!


I was looking at this. Excited to hear how it is


----------



## blokey

Sakai Kikumori Gokujo at Strata, I really like mine








Sakai Kikumori - Gokujyo - White #2 - Chinese Cleaver - Rosewood Western Handle


Brand: Sakai Kikumori 堺菊守Smith: Tanaka Uchihamono 田中打刃物Made in: Sakai, Osaka - JapanLine: GokujyoProfile: Chinese CleaverEdge Length: 223mmBlade Height: 110.5mmEdge Steel: Shirogami #2/White #2Steel Type: CarbonConstruction: Awase/CladCladding: Soft IronFinish: Migaki/StandardBevel: DoubleBevel...




strataportland.com


----------



## demirtasem

It seems there are not many options on 205-210/90mm small cleavers. I see mostly over 220/110mm's or 180-190/75-80mm's. After trying couple large cleavers I feel better around 210/85-90mm cleavers.

There is a Matsubara B#2 and Tabata B#2 (which I never heard) in CKTG. I was almost buying pull the trigger, then Fellipi answered my questions and gave me around same price with his 52100. I'm really confused now.  Any opinions?

Btw I ordered this little fella below. Super excited!









Yoshimitsu Kajiya Nakiri-bocho 155mm Shirogami #2


Free worldwide shipping. Hand-forged nakiri-bocho from Yoshimitsu Kajiya and Knife Japan. Visit to see our extensive selection of handcrafted Japanese knives.




knifejapan.com


----------



## BillHanna

Tell him to make two, and I’ll take the second?

I’ll also be ordering that lil guy kinda soon.


----------



## demirtasem

BillHanna said:


> Tell him to make two, and I’ll take the second?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

Cleaver and deba/funyaki(?) gettin' it done.


----------



## Jville

demirtasem said:


> It seems there are not many options on 205-210/90mm small cleavers. I see mostly over 220/110mm's or 180-190/75-80mm's. After trying couple large cleavers I feel better around 210/85-90mm cleavers.
> 
> There is a Matsubara B#2 and Tabata B#2 (which I never heard) in CKTG. I was almost buying pull the trigger, then Fellipi answered my questions and gave me around same price with his 52100. I'm really confused now.  Any opinions?
> 
> Btw I ordered this little fella below. Super excited!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yoshimitsu Kajiya Nakiri-bocho 155mm Shirogami #2
> 
> 
> Free worldwide shipping. Hand-forged nakiri-bocho from Yoshimitsu Kajiya and Knife Japan. Visit to see our extensive selection of handcrafted Japanese knives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> knifejapan.com


Easy choice go Felipe. The Matsubura is also probably good, but I would still and did go Felipe. I had sone one tell me the tabata was kinda clunky and uneventful. They looked very interesting to me, when I first saw them. Mine from Felipe is 205x97


----------



## Jville

So it looks like I have this Lasuer pgrind 52100 cleaver on the way. I really am not buying knives right now, but I’ve been admiring and urning for a Lasuer cleaver for awhile since I’ve been watching him put out great looking cleavers. The chances of me getting one seemed pretty low, so when I pulled up the page and this was sitting there I made it happen: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/...0BHKY5PJW1LK/52100+cleaver+1.jpg?format=1500w


----------



## superworrier

Jville said:


> Easy choice go Felipe. The Matsubura is also probably good, but I would still and did go Felipe. I had sone one tell me the tabata was kinda clunky and uneventful. They looked very interesting to me, when I first saw them. Mine from Felipe is 205x97


His 52100 is really nice too


----------



## Jville

So what’s the deal with finger notches in the cleavers? Anyone have comments on how they are in usage. When I worked with Felipe on a cleaver I have coming, I specifically requested no notch. The Lasuer I just got has the notch. I haven’t owned any with notches, I couldn’t not get it based on perhaps a minute detail.


----------



## BillHanna

Jville said:


> So what’s the deal with finger notches in the cleavers? Anyone have comments on how they are in usage. When I worked with Felipe on a cleaver I have coming, I specifically requested no notch. The Lasuer I just got has the notch. I haven’t owned any with notches, I couldn’t not get it based on perhaps a minute detail.


I haven't used my Porto yet, but in hand it feels nicer than I expected. I'm expecting it to feel a bit short though. If I were to request it, I think I'd ask for about 30 more mm of length.



(that's what she said)


----------



## Jville

BillHanna said:


> I haven't used my Porto yet, but in hand it feels nicer than I expected. I'm expecting it to feel a bit short though. If I were to request it, I think I'd ask for about 30 more mm of length.
> 
> 
> 
> (that's what she said)


Good point Bill, plus your Porto is already kind of small 




In that grayish area of is it a small cleaver or a large nakiri. It looks sweet either way. I remember wanting it, when it was originally in BST.


----------



## tostadas

Jville said:


> So what’s the deal with finger notches in the cleavers? Anyone have comments on how they are in usage. When I worked with Felipe on a cleaver I have coming, I specifically requested no notch. The Lasuer I just got has the notch. I haven’t owned any with notches, I couldn’t not get it based on perhaps a minute detail.


The main difference is how far the choil is from the front of the handle. There's some minor affect to the balance point relative to grip location, and heel location relative to grip. My preference is to have handle butting right up against the choil. My matsubara Ginsan and shibata tinker tank had the handles installed a little bit back from the choil, so effectively act like finger notches, just with a different look. And I thought those were equally comfortable compared to my more standard cleavers.





Been a while since we had a Cleaver chat.


Just got it yesterday. Haven’t even used it yet.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









Been a while since we had a Cleaver chat.


I was thinking more of their American retailer. Not sure about JKI's sales number but Jon seems to be doing fine, they sell other knives too.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## BillHanna

Jville said:


> Good point Bill, plus your Porto is already kind of small View attachment 211230
> 
> In that grayish area of is it a small cleaver or a large nakiri. It looks sweet either way. I remember wanting it, when it was originally in BST.


Large nakiri


----------



## BillHanna

BillHanna said:


> This photo will be updated soon.


----------



## demirtasem

BillHanna said:


> View attachment 211331



Are you happy with Daovua? Is it CCK 1102 or 03 on the right? Looks cool.


----------



## BillHanna

demirtasem said:


> Are you happy with Daovua? Is it CCK 1102 or 03 on the right? Looks cool.


Haven’t used it yet 

1102

Thanks!


----------



## pownedju

blokey said:


> Sakai Kikumori Gokujo at Strata, I really like mine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sakai Kikumori - Gokujyo - White #2 - Chinese Cleaver - Rosewood Western Handle
> 
> 
> Brand: Sakai Kikumori 堺菊守Smith: Tanaka Uchihamono 田中打刃物Made in: Sakai, Osaka - JapanLine: GokujyoProfile: Chinese CleaverEdge Length: 223mmBlade Height: 110.5mmEdge Steel: Shirogami #2/White #2Steel Type: CarbonConstruction: Awase/CladCladding: Soft IronFinish: Migaki/StandardBevel: DoubleBevel...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> strataportland.com


How would you compare this to a CCK? I've been looking for a very thin cleaver and so far, I've only found Watanabe or maybe a Sugi #1, but this looks thinner than the Sugi.


----------



## Jville

BillHanna said:


> Large nakiri


Yeah, I figured it handled more like a large nakiri. Usually, you immediately know just by how it is in hand. For example my small sugimotos are undoubtedly small cleavers, eventhough they are only 190 on the edge. You would usually say in the 70’s for height it will end up being a nakiri, but I looked at my 210 Toyama nakiri and imagined it being 76mm tall. If it were so I think it would definitely be a cleaver.


----------



## Jville

BillHanna said:


> Haven’t used it yet
> 
> 1102
> 
> Thanks!


1102 is a little bigger than the 1103, correct? I have a 1103 and wondered if it would be worth getting an 1102.


----------



## blokey

pownedju said:


> How would you compare this to a CCK? I've been looking for a very thin cleaver and so far, I've only found Watanabe or maybe a Sugi #1, but this looks thinner than the Sugi.


Depends on which CCK, this is not as thin as 130x series, it’s a large slicer more like 1102, however I like it better than my CCK1302, cuts more effortlessly than a paper thin cleaver. This is thinner than Sugi, more of a Ginga cleaver territory.


----------



## BillHanna

Onion slaying rankings

1,2,4,Unranked,3,5


----------



## JayS20

Jville said:


> So what’s the deal with finger notches in the cleavers? Anyone have comments on how they are in usage


Really depends how big they are imo. If they are subtle, they can be quite comfortable. If they are bigger they dictate how you hold the knife and feel a bit strange. Don't like them then but also not that much of a cleaver guy so not as much insight.
Here is my customised Cai Dao


----------



## BillHanna

Jville said:


> 1102 is a little bigger than the 1103, correct? I have a 1103 and wondered if it would be worth getting an 1102.


I've owned both. If you want bigger, get it. If the 1103 feels awesome, no need to change. Me personally, I'd love an 1101 and I feel like I'd enjoy the theoretical 1100.


----------



## Jville

BillHanna said:


> Onion slaying rankings
> 
> 1,2,4,Unranked,3,5View attachment 211361


What is the third from the left? Another Felipe?


----------



## Jville

BillHanna said:


> I've owned both. If you want bigger, get it. If the 1103 feels awesome, no need to change. Me personally, I'd love an 1101 and I feel like I'd enjoy the theoretical 1100.


How much bigger is the 1102 then the 1103?


----------



## BillHanna

Jville said:


> What is the third from the left? Another Felipe?


Lars Kallgren


----------



## BillHanna

Jville said:


> How much bigger is the 1102 then the 1103?


235x118 v 228x108


----------



## Jville

BillHanna said:


> 235x118 v 228x108


Thanks, my bad I looked up the specs . Couldn’t find the weight, would guess probably an ounce or two. Lars looks like he is making some good cleavers.


----------



## pownedju

Depends on which CCK, this is not as thin as 130x series, it’s a large slicer more like 1102, however I like it better than my CCK1302, cuts more effortlessly than a paper thin cleaver. This is thinner than Sugi, more of a Ginga cleaver territory.
Sorry I should have specified 1303. If it’s thinner than a Sugi then that’s interesting. I like the looks of it more than any of the Wats that are available right now as well. The profile also looks quite flat which I like. Are there any cleavers you know of that are the thinner side like a 130x/Wat?


----------



## blokey

JayS20 said:


> Really depends how big they are imo. If they are subtle, they can be quite comfortable. If they are bigger they dictate how you hold the knife and feel a bit strange. Don't like them then but also not that much of a cleaver guy so not as much insight.
> Here is my customised Cai Dao
> View attachment 211392
> 
> View attachment 211393


This looks nice, any information on the marker? I search the Chinese characters but no result.


----------



## BillHanna

I feel like the weight was noticeable, but I traded one for the other. So there were a few days without. Never had them side by side.

@Jville


----------



## JayS20

blokey said:


> This looks nice, any information on the marker? I search the Chinese characters but no result.


Sadly no but should still have the packaging it came in. Have to look for it and report back


----------



## anko

pownedju said:


> I like the looks of it more than any of the Wats that are available right now as well.


He may actually be trolling with this latest batch. "If I make odd sizes with ugly KU that has areas that look like rust, and slap on the most gaudy handle material I can find, will people still buy them, just because they are Wat cleavers?"
*the current 250mm being the exception


----------



## blokey

pownedju said:


> Depends on which CCK, this is not as thin as 130x series, it’s a large slicer more like 1102, however I like it better than my CCK1302, cuts more effortlessly than a paper thin cleaver. This is thinner than Sugi, more of a Ginga cleaver territory.
> Sorry I should have specified 1303. If it’s thinner than a Sugi then that’s interesting. I like the looks of it more than any of the Wats that are available right now as well. The profile also looks quite flat which I like. Are there any cleavers you know of that are the thinner side like a 130x/Wat?


1303 is as thin a knife can get, any thinner you are getting into flimsy territory. Wat is thicker than 1303. If you want really thin stuff consider a custom, Keskin did a ridiculously thin nakiri, Pig Iron Forge stuff is also quite thin.








Cleaver Nakiri with Oval handle By Keskin


For International purchase, please contact us through Instagram DM or WhatsApp Blade : Leafpsring High Carbon Steel 200mm x 78mm Thickness -+3,5mm flat Satin / Migaki finish Handle : 135mm Oval Rosewood Saya : Rosewood with pin Notes : The weight listed is the weight of the shipping package...




 kitchenknives.id


----------



## pownedju

anko said:


> He may actually be trolling with this latest batch. "If I make odd sizes with ugly KU that has areas that look like rust, and slap on the most gaudy handle material I can find, will people still buy them, just because they are Wat cleavers?"
> *the current 250mm being the exception


Yea I don’t get it. I’ve seen some examples of other batches that pop up on google images, and there wasn’t one that I didn’t like. It’s unfortunate that I only got into knives recently. I would have already purchased one if he had one that I liked. I’d kill to get the pink handled one. I messaged him directly and he won’t restock until this current batch sells out, which seems like never since they aren’t well liked. 

The 250mm is right up my alley but I want a 210-220. I wonder if I could buy the 220 with the black handle and just remove the KU finish.


----------



## tostadas

anko said:


> He may actually be trolling with this latest batch. "If I make odd sizes with ugly KU that has areas that look like rust, and slap on the most gaudy handle material I can find, will people still buy them, just because they are Wat cleavers?"
> *the current 250mm being the exception


I've also never seen western handle scales installed so unevenly. And this is even considering all the TFs I've had.


----------



## pownedju

blokey said:


> 1303 is as thin a knife can get, any thinner you are getting into flimsy territory. Wat is thicker than 1303. If you want really thin stuff consider a custom, Keskin did a ridiculously thin nakiri, Pig Iron Forge stuff is also quite thin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cleaver Nakiri with Oval handle By Keskin
> 
> 
> For International purchase, please contact us through Instagram DM or WhatsApp Blade : Leafpsring High Carbon Steel 200mm x 78mm Thickness -+3,5mm flat Satin / Migaki finish Handle : 135mm Oval Rosewood Saya : Rosewood with pin Notes : The weight listed is the weight of the shipping package...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kitchenknives.id


That looks pretty nice for that price. Is their quality control decent? I haven’t seen more than a handful of posts about them. For roughly $130 bucks shipped I might have to give it a shot anyway. Not as tall as I might like, but still quite tall at 78mm.


----------



## demirtasem

pownedju said:


> Depends on which CCK, this is not as thin as 130x series, it’s a large slicer more like 1102, however I like it better than my CCK1302, cuts more effortlessly than a paper thin cleaver. This is thinner than Sugi, more of a Ginga cleaver territory.
> Sorry I should have specified 1303. If it’s thinner than a Sugi then that’s interesting. I like the looks of it more than any of the Wats that are available right now as well. The profile also looks quite flat which I like. Are there any cleavers you know of that are the thinner side like a 130x/Wat?



On cheap cleaver side, my Ho Ching Kee Lee is 1.7mm thick at heel. Didn’t see any other thinner than this (yet). It’s 206/90mm, 235g.


----------



## demirtasem

BillHanna said:


> Tell him to make two, and I’ll take the second?
> 
> I’ll also be ordering that lil guy kinda soon.



There you go.


----------



## xsmx13

pownedju said:


> That looks pretty nice for that price. Is their quality control decent? I haven’t seen more than a handful of posts about them. For roughly $130 bucks shipped I might have to give it a shot anyway. Not as tall as I might like, but still quite tall at 78mm.



The Keskin line is pretty good and I don't know of any honyaki blades for close to the price. I have noticed some of the wa handles have no taper and one that felt thicker towards the front, but the western handles are really nice. Delivery time can be long, but I've found them great to work with on multiple orders including some custom requests.


----------



## BillHanna

demirtasem said:


> There you go.


What do they measure at?


----------



## blokey

demirtasem said:


> There you go.


How do you like it?


----------



## pownedju

xsmx13 said:


> The Keskin line is pretty good and I don't know of any honyaki blades for close to the price. I have noticed some of the wa handles have no taper and one that felt thicker towards the front, but the western handles are really nice. Delivery time can be long, but I've found them great to work with on multiple orders including some custom requests.


Thanks for the info. I actually just gave in and put a deposit down for a Pig Iron Forge custom cleaver. Now for the long 4-5 month wait. I might still order a Keskin in the meantime to test the waters.


----------



## demirtasem

BillHanna said:


> What do they measure at?





blokey said:


> How do you like it?



I'm still waiting to be delivered. Photo is from Knife Japan. Michael from KJ said top one (which I'll get) is 155/70mm and bottom one around 167/73mm.


----------



## Jville

This one is on its way from Felipe. 




Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## BillHanna

Jville said:


> This one is on its way from Felipe.
> View attachment 211786


I SAW THAT ON INSTAGRAM 

I call dibs


----------



## Jville

bzalforno said:


> Just received a Tsourkan gyuto from Tyler, a resale.
> It makes want to dispose of my 190 and 210 Denkas. Yes they cut unbelievably, but if you care about good industrial design and execution of that design,- they are not worth the money, even if one can afford it. I don’t know what the original price of this Tsourkan was, but it is the nicest knife in my oversized collection. It is my reach for it knife out of the drawer.





BillHanna said:


> I SAW THAT ON INSTAGRAM
> 
> I call dibs


Alright, noted you got dibs


----------



## tostadas

Jville said:


> This one is on its way from Felipe.
> View attachment 211786


Ooh what wood did you choose? I like it


----------



## Jville

tostadas said:


> Ooh what wood did you choose? I like it


It’s Jacaranda Da Bahia.


----------



## Reptyle

So, I've been toying with the idea of getting a custom cleaver for a bit. I've mostly been considering trying Hyde, Markin, or Porto; but I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions or input?


----------



## BillHanna

D. All Of The Above


----------



## tostadas

BillHanna said:


> D. All Of The Above


This.


----------



## blokey

Anyone have experience with this one here?








Mizuno Tanrenjo Akitada Hontanren Series Virgin Carbon Steel Chinese Cleaver No.6


Hontanren Chinese Cleaver is forged and hand sharpened. Mizuno Tanrenjo’s passion for fine craftsmanship ensures that the knife has outstanding sharpness.




japanesechefsknife.com


----------



## kpham12

blokey said:


> Anyone have experience with this one here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mizuno Tanrenjo Akitada Hontanren Series Virgin Carbon Steel Chinese Cleaver No.6
> 
> 
> Hontanren Chinese Cleaver is forged and hand sharpened. Mizuno Tanrenjo’s passion for fine craftsmanship ensures that the knife has outstanding sharpness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> japanesechefsknife.com


Been eyeing those for a while. I believe the virgin carbon is supposed to be a very hard blue 2. Unfortunately, it’s way too heavy, basically #7 territory even though it looks pretty thin BTE. I would have to send it to a custom maker or knife store/service that could shave off at least 100 grams which I’m assuming would be pricy on top of the already $600+ price tag.

15 years old, but I like this video of it alongside a Moritaka cleaver.


----------



## 4wa1l

I've wondered about these. Anyone try one? They also have a few others available.

Chinese Style Cleaver N0600 Thin Type. 

I love my Togashi cleaver and have heard good things about the Kikumori. If these are a similar Sakai made cleaver then they look like great value.


----------



## pownedju

Why does seemingly no one make a cleaver with an attractive handle considering how difficult it is to rehandle one?


----------



## kpham12

pownedju said:


> Why does seemingly no one make a cleaver with an attractive handle considering how difficult it is to rehandle one?


I would guess because Chinese cleavers are usually seen as relatively cheap, utilitarian, working knives. Most Chinese and Japanese makers would assume the cleavers they make are probably going to get the crap beaten out of them, likely in a working kitchen, so why make them fancy and more expensive? You can put nice handles with rare woods and shiny spacers on single bevel knives that get used in front of customers at a sushi restaurant, but most Chinese cleavers don’t make it out to the front of the house.


----------



## kpham12

That being said, I would love one of these


----------



## BillHanna

pownedju said:


> Why does seemingly no one make a cleaver with an attractive handle considering how difficult it is to rehandle one?


I’m hoping to get on Hyde’s list next year and get a fancied up CCK. Big fat handle and all.


----------



## tostadas

pownedju said:


> Why does seemingly no one make a cleaver with an attractive handle considering how difficult it is to rehandle one?


I've tried a number of the various Sakai brand chukas with western handles and I really have not found one that even sorta feels good to me. They all are too tall and narrow. It's the main reason why I don't already own a denka cleaver. So with Japanese-made Chinese cleavers, I tend to go with wa handles so at least I can modify it or replace with my own.


----------



## pownedju

kpham12 said:


> That being said, I would love one of these



Those do look good. Do they come in 200-210? 

I can see your logic in the BoH/FoH. It's just that there are so so many good-looking regular knives it's kind of baffling that no one (not many) has/have taken it upon themselves to make a "showy" cleaver. I just said to hell with it and hopped on a custom list. Can't wait to see how it turns out in a few months.


----------



## kpham12

pownedju said:


> Those do look good. Do they come in 200-210?
> 
> I can see your logic in the BoH/FoH. It's just that there are so so many good-looking regular knives it's kind of baffling that no one (not many) has/have taken it upon themselves to make a "showy" cleaver. I just said to hell with it and hopped on a custom list. Can't wait to see how it turns out in a few months.


I’ve only seen a small size of the Nakagawa cleaver. Besides custom makers, the only Japanese maker I know off the top of my head making cleavers with really “showy” handles is Takeshi Saji out of Echizen (and maybe Yu Kurosaki). One of his Damascus cleavers with ironwood handle will run you about a grand though. Here’s a video of a guy using one at a more upscale joint.


----------



## pownedju

kpham12 said:


> I’ve only seen a small size of the Nakagawa cleaver. Besides custom makers, the only Japanese maker I know off the top of my head making cleavers with really “showy” handles is Takeshi Saji out of Echizen (and maybe Yu Kurosaki). One of his Damascus cleavers with ironwood handle will run you about a grand though. Here’s a video of a guy using one at a more upscale joint.



Oh wow. His stuff is incredibly showy (not a huge damascus fan myself though), and he even makes some from R2, which is my personal favorite. I wonder how well it performs for $1500. Do you know of anyone else using R2 for cleavers, or how I would go about finding a maker that has access to R2? Currently going through a western maker for my first custom, so there is a high chance it won't be made from any Japanese steel unless he happens to source some between now and my production date.


----------



## tostadas

pownedju said:


> Oh wow. His stuff is incredibly showy (not a huge damascus fan myself though), and he even makes some from R2, which is my personal favorite. I wonder how well it performs for $1500. Do you know of anyone else using R2 for cleavers, or how I would go about finding a maker that has access to R2? Currently going through a western maker for my first custom, so there is a high chance it won't be made from any Japanese steel unless he happens to source some between now and my production date.


Yoshimi Kato does. Well maybe not a full size cleaver, but they're "tall nakiri" so sorta like a mini cleaver. Havent personally tried one though.


----------



## blokey

I’m usually not a fan of unconventional grind but the LaSeur is really nice, cuts on par with anything from my kit. F&F is great, the handle is easily one of the best in all my knives and the saya is just beautiful. One thing I really love is how stiff the whole thing is, it is monosteel aeb-l at 62, which really is a great steel for cleaver. Much much more stiff than Takeda I had, and stiffer than CCK1302 too, I wouldn’t have to worry about anything when chopping. 
Only thing I’m still skeptical is still the grind tho, im not sure how well it will aid in food release, from a short carrot and potato cutting session it did well but the flat side do have some stiction. The food separation is exceptional, as easy as 1302 which is no small feat consider the grind. If I have the chance I would love order a convention cleaver with slightly different spec from LaSeur.


----------



## blokey

pownedju said:


> Why does seemingly no one make a cleaver with an attractive handle considering how difficult it is to rehandle one?


Some stuff by XinGuo, a Chinese maker. Most maker could do custom handle so there is really not much a problem to me, I’d rather it be functional.


----------



## pownedju

blokey said:


> Some stuff by XinGuo, a Chinese maker. Most maker could do custom handle so there is really not much a problem to me, I’d rather it be functional.
> View attachment 212017
> View attachment 212018
> View attachment 212020


Do you have a link to any of his stuff? I couldn’t find it with a little Googling.


----------



## blokey

pownedju said:


> Do you have a link to any of his stuff? I couldn’t find it with a little Googling.


He’s mostly doing domestic market atm so sadly there are not many information out there, here’s a video.

He sell mostly on TaoBao tho recently he got shadow banned for some stupid reason, he also do wechat through his partner.
【淘宝】https://m.tb.cn/h.U7uH1EB?tk=idHeddqS1oo CZ3457 
Here’s some video of his stuff in action
新国作中式冷锻黑打大片刀，钢芯为钴合金，自己最后一把中式刀了，玩过的一些些都出掉了，最后觉得好用及好看的就留下了陈枝记碳钢菜刀泛用，新国那两把大片刀偶尔纯切。_哔哩哔哩_bilibili
新国作 中式220大片刀 m390_哔哩哔哩_bilibili


----------



## Noodle Soup

What does shadow banned mean? Someone i know mentioned he was having problems selling knives because of it.


----------



## blokey

Noodle Soup said:


> What does shadow banned mean? Someone i know mentioned he was having problems selling knives because of it.


His store is not technically banned and you can still buy stuff here, but it just would not show up in search.


----------



## Noodle Soup

Is there a problem with selling kitchen knives these days?


----------



## blokey

I don’t know


----------



## stringer

Noodle Soup said:


> Is there a problem with selling kitchen knives these days?


In/from/to some countries/platforms/shippers. Some places classify them as weapons. Don't know if that's the case here. But I've seen makers discussing the issue lately.


----------



## blokey

stringer said:


> In/from/to some countries/platforms/shippers. Some places classify them as weapons. Don't know if that's the case here. But I've seen makers discussing the issue lately.


At least in China knife over 220mm and have a tip angle less than 60 degrees would be considered regulated blade no matter the purpose, that’s why you see why so many Chinese companies put a protractor next to their knives. The law is not applies very strictly at least on custom makers but it did make a way for TaoBao/Ali to racketeering small sellers.


----------



## cotedupy

cotedupy said:


> I was in a Chinese supermarket yesterday stocking up on industrial quantities of Laoganma (in Chinatown you can get catering size jars!), and thought I ought buy a new cleaver as well, to really emphasise how serious I was about the whole affair. And not just any cleaver, I bought a Shibazi, so now I too can have _opinions..._
> 
> They actually had both a CCK cleaver at £78, and a metal handled Leung Tim at 40 quid , but I have quite a few from those brands already. And my new Shibazi cost £11 (!)
> 
> View attachment 194317
> 
> 
> 
> It's 195mm x 95 in the middle and 90 at the toe and heel. Which is right at the very bottom end of what we can reasonably call a cleaver, anything smaller is just a glorified nakiri, and really one would want something larger. @BillHanna knows where it's at.
> 
> It's also stainless (40CR13); the first stainless knife I've ever bought, but they only had one model, so it is what it is.
> 
> The fit and finish is extremely good, wildly better than any cleaver I've bought before, with the exception of the Tinker Tank, if that counts. They've done a 'sandblasted' kasumi effect on it, which actually doesn't look too bad in person tbh, though will probably get completely ruined if I try to thin it.
> 
> View attachment 194318
> 
> 
> 
> And the handle is really nice, the whole thing has been put together extremely well. I have zero idea how anyone is making money on this, especially given I bought it from a shop bang in the middle of central London.
> 
> View attachment 194316
> 
> 
> 
> It's about 2mm thick at the spine, with no distal taper, and a grind that's chunky in comparison to CCK and LT. Which isn't something I mind personally, I can't be doing with namby-pamby, wafer-thin cai dao. The full tang handle also adds to the reassuring heft and solidity.
> 
> View attachment 194314
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 194315
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't sharp, they never are. But I will report back once I've put and edge on and given it a spin. Assuming the steel's alright I think I'll probably get along with it nicely.
> 
> Also it was £11. _Eleven._




I set myself a little challenge for fun recently, to see how good I could make my £11 Shibazi caidao using only stuff that also cost next to nothing. I have here; a cheap no-name SiC Coarse n Fine, a piece of 400 grit sandpaper, and some 3-in-1 oil:







The handle of the knife is really quite nice straight out the box, so I just sanded it lightly and oiled at the end.

Something that certainly needed looking at was rounding the choil and spine, which were quite sharp and would've been extremely uncomfortable in a pinch grip. I can't remember who it was, but someone here recently recommended using a stone for this rather than sandpaper. This was the first time I'd tried it and it works a charm. A few mins on the coarse side of the SiC stone has got the edges to a much nicer, more comfortable state:







The big thing though was thinning and removing some of the very pronounced belly from the profile, and taking off the slightly tacky, fake sandblasted kasumi.

Out the box the knife was actually very fat behind the edge - worse than it looked initially, to the extent I would've called it unusable as a slicing cleaver. I like my caidao to have a little bit of heft but this was something else, and required quite considerable material removal to get to the pics below, and I did it differentially so it's thinner at the front (1st pic) than the back (2nd pic). This is what it looked like off the coarse side, I did a little more on the fine side after:












I'd forgotten how annoying cheap stainless can be to thin, so that took about an hour. And cheap SiC stones are often a little bit soft, so without fancy equipment my stone needed to be flattened the old fashioned way:







Took out some of the belly while I was thinning so the knife does now have some flat part to the profile, though I'll probably flatten it further during future sharpening sessions too.

So last up before sharpening an edge on is the aesthetic finish. The thinning has obviously removed the sandblasted kasumi, but has left some deep grind marks, and I also want to get rid of a the laser etched Shibazi kanji logo up near the spine/handle, and go for a uniform brushed steel kinda appearance.

Usually I'd do this with a coarse sanding progression, but I've only got 400 grit for my challenge which isn't going to cut it, so I needed to experiment, and see if I could turn the softness of my stone to an advantage. I soaked it in water for a while to soften it a bit further and then used the fine side in-hand to try to sand out some of the scratches and 'polish' the blade, before finishing with the 400 grit WnD. I'd still recommend a sanding progression for it, but in a pinch this method does work it turns out. I still have a few deeper scratch marks, especially up near the beginning of the bevel, but in general I think this looks acceptable, and I can't really be bothered with the faff of trying to get the all out:







Then it's just putting an edge on with my trusty, and now somewhat thinner, SiC combi, and trying it out...

It'll zing through normal paper and doesn't do badly on paper towel, though this isn't the cleanest of cuts. And it's great on food; will do proper paper thin garlic and ginger slices, and just generally slay all manner of veg prep.











Your browser is not able to display this video.







---

All in all I'm rather pleased with the outcome, I think it hits that nice caidao sweet spot where it's not so delicate that you need to worry about it, and yet will still do fine work well. I also think it looks a helluva lot nicer now than it did before.


----------



## jonnachang

Here’s a couple of Shibazi S 210 carbon steel cleavers that arrived from Aliexpress . If you don’t mind the one month plus waiting time, for $20 each it’s a no brainer.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook

cotedupy said:


> I set myself a little challenge for fun recently, to see how good I could make my £11 Shibazi caidao using only stuff that also cost next to nothing. I have here; a cheap no-name SiC Coarse n Fine, a piece of 400 grit sandpaper, and some 3-in-1 oil:
> 
> View attachment 212200
> 
> 
> 
> The handle of the knife is really quite nice straight out the box, so I just sanded it lightly and oiled at the end.
> 
> Something that certainly needed looking at was rounding the choil and spine, which were quite sharp and would've been extremely uncomfortable in a pinch grip. I can't remember who it was, but someone here recently recommended using a stone for this rather than sandpaper. This was the first time I'd tried it and it works a charm. A few mins on the coarse side of the SiC stone has got the edges to a much nicer, more comfortable state:
> 
> View attachment 212201
> 
> 
> 
> The big thing though was thinning and removing some of the very pronounced belly from the profile, and taking off that nasty fake sandblasted kasumi.
> 
> Out the box the knife was exceptionally fat behind the edge, to the extent I would've called it unusable as a slicing cleaver. I like my caidao to have a little bit of heft, but this was something else and required quite considerable material removal to get to the pics below, and I did it differentially so it's thinner at the front (1st pic) than the back (2nd pic). This is what it looked like off the coarse side, I did a little more on the fine side after:
> 
> View attachment 212204
> 
> 
> View attachment 212203
> 
> 
> 
> I'd forgotten how annoying cheap stainless can be to thin, so that took about an hour. And cheap SiC stones are often a little bit soft, so without fancy equipment my stone needed to be flattened the old fashioned way:
> 
> View attachment 212207
> 
> 
> 
> Took out some of the belly while I was thinning so the knife does now have some flat part to the profile, though I'll probably flatten it further during future sharpening sessions too.
> 
> So last up before sharpening an edge on is the aesthetic finish. The thinning has obviously removed the sandblasted kasumi, but has left some deep grind marks, and i also want to get rid of a the laser etched Shibazi logo up near the handle, and go for a uniform brushed steel kinda appearance.
> 
> Usually I'd do this with a coarse sanding progression, but I've only got 400 grit for my challenge which isn't going to cut it, so I needed to experiment, and see if I could turn the softness of my stone to an advantage. I soaked it in water for a while to soften it a bit further and then used the fine side in-hand to try to sand out some of the scratches and 'polish' the blade, before finishing with the 400 grit WnD. I'd still recommend a sanding progression for it, but in a pinch this method does work it turns out. I still have a few deeper scratch marks, especially up near the beginning of the bevel, but in general I think this looks acceptable, and I can't really be bothered with the faff of trying to get the all out:
> 
> View attachment 212206
> 
> 
> 
> Then it's just putting an edge on with my trusty, and now somewhat thinner, SiC combi, and trying it out...
> 
> It'll zing through normal paper and doesn't do badly on paper towel, though this isn't the cleanest of cuts. And it's great on food; will do proper paper thin garlic and ginger slices, and just generally slay all manner of veg prep.
> 
> View attachment 212202
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 212214
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> All in all I'm rather pleased with the outcome, I think it hits that nice caidao sweet spot where it's not so delicate that you need to worry about it, and yet will still do fine work well. I also think it looks a helluva lot nicer now than it did before.
> 
> View attachment 212205



Awesome post!


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## Noodle Soup

blokey said:


> At least in China knife over 220mm and have a tip angle less than 60 degrees would be considered regulated blade no matter the purpose, that’s why you see why so many Chinese companies put a protractor next to their knives. The law is not applies very strictly at least on custom makers but it did make a way for TaoBao/Ali to racketeering small sellers.


On a return trip from Thailand a few years ago I was stopped in the Shanghai airport and my luggage searched. They confiscated three jungle knives with blades around 10-inches in length. I also had a 10-inch chef knife and large Chinese cleaver (220?) but they said those were ok to keep. Frankly, the chef knife would make a better weapon than the jungle knives but I was not up to arguing with about 25 Chinese cops at 2:30 in the morning.


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## blokey

Noodle Soup said:


> On a return trip from Thailand a few years ago I was stopped in the Shanghai airport and my luggage searched. They confiscated three jungle knives with blades around 10-inches in length. I also had a 10-inch chef knife and large Chinese cleaver (220?) but they said those were ok to keep. Frankly, the chef knife would make a better weapon than the jungle knives but I was not up to arguing with about 25 Chinese cops at 2:30 in the morning.


The law is very tricky and really depends on what part they want to enforce at the moment.


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## Noodle Soup

blokey said:


> The law is very tricky and really depends on what part they want to enforce at the moment.


I will never travel through Shanghai again as I was not allowed to check my luggage straight through from Thailand to my destination. It had to be rechecked which meant going through the metal detectors. Ding, Ding, Ding, this guy has a bunch of big knives all wrapped up for safe travel. Actually, I have no plans to go to China again either with all their covid restrictions and lock downs.


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## Eziemniak

@cotedupy 
Shibazi has some of the best engrish slogans ever:




A P02 and 03 can be found in most major oriental stores in Spain for ~20€, which makes for a good value beater


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## HumbleHomeCook

This popped up n my feed and I thought some of you cleaver nuts might enjoy it.


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## blokey

HumbleHomeCook said:


> This popped up n my feed and I thought some of you cleaver nuts might enjoy it.



Dude’s pretty famous in Chinese knife circle.


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## HumbleHomeCook

blokey said:


> Dude’s pretty famous in Chinese knife circle.



I like what I've seen of his sharpening videos.


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## Perzua

https://www.chef knivestogo.com/chkivsmsl.html
Chopper King Blue #1 (V-Toku1) Small Slicer​
What do you think guys?


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## blokey

Perzua said:


> https://www.chef knivestogo.com/chkivsmsl.html
> Chopper King Blue #1 (V-Toku1) Small Slicer​
> What do you think guys?


Interested in that one too, people seems to like other chopper king here.


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## blokey

Getting some knives from a group of Chinese rural smith, they use Chinese equivalent of 52100 cladded in 410 stainless, usually at 59-63 range. Hopefully I can get my hands on those soon. They cost around $30 with custom request.








Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## Noodle Soup

Perzua said:


> https://www.chef knivestogo.com/chkivsmsl.html
> Chopper King Blue #1 (V-Toku1) Small Slicer​
> What do you think guys?


I have both sizes and I really like the small slicer. It has been getting a lot of use in my kitchen the last couple of months.


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## Keith Sinclair

pownedju said:


> Why does seemingly no one make a cleaver with an attractive handle considering how difficult it is to rehandle one?


Barrel handles are more functional it's why almost all Chinese cleavers have them. Some handles feel terrible on a cleaver.


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## blokey

Keith Sinclair said:


> Barrel handles are more functional it's why almost all Chinese cleavers have them. Some handles feel terrible on a cleaver.


I agree, I honestly don’t like what cktg did with the Fook Kee, neck that long just feels weird on a cleaver.


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## Keith Sinclair

blokey said:


> Getting some knives from a group of Chinese rural smith, they use Chinese equivalent of 52100 cladded in 410 stainless, usually at 59-63 range. Hopefully I can get my hands on those soon. They cost around $30 with custom request.
> View attachment 213234
> 
> View attachment 213235


Sounds good. Thin vegetable cleavers can have hard steel. Medium & esp. bone cleavers softer steel is better. Softer mono Carbon heavy cleavers are best Easy to reshape the dents to a repeated sharp. Used both stainless & carbon at work, my carbons liked best for chicken bones. 

I've seen non Chinese cleavers medium & heavy made with 60+ hrt steel. I made mistake of buying one even splitting hard lobster shells chipped the edge big time.


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## blokey

Keith Sinclair said:


> Sounds good. Thin vegetable cleavers can have hard steel. Medium & esp. bone cleavers softer steel is better. Softer mono Carbon heavy cleavers are best Easy to reshape the dents to a repeated sharp. Used both stainless & carbon at work, my carbons liked best for chicken bones.
> 
> I've seen non Chinese cleavers medium & heavy made with 60+ hrt steel. I made mistake of buying one even splitting hard lobster shells chipped the edge big time.


Depends on the steel I guess, 52100 and Abe-l at 60s should still have better toughness than a lot of others.


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## blokey

Just got the Dengjia cleaver, I certainly got what I paid for. But this is also a good example how weight helps cleaver in cutting, grind like this in a gyuto would got stock immediately but this bad boy cuts through carrot with little effort, and no sticking at all. Good project knife for me. The butcher knife came with it is as wabisabi as it goes, probably gonna use it a yo Deba.


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## kpham12

Had some leftovers after using the Raquin passaround nakiri a bunch so tested the fresh edge on my Sugimoto CM4030 stainless cleaver. This thing sees a lot of home use and I never get bored of it. Easy to thin, gets sharp like good carbon with great retention and super tough. Cut up an apple core really finely including stem and seeds without damage to the thin, acute edge.


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## HumbleHomeCook

Okay cleaver freaks, were you always one or did you evolve into them? Were nakiri a gateway for you?

I find them equally fascinating as ridiculous. I don't mean that with any disrespect, just thinking about the idea of me using one. But I do love my Wat Pro 180...

Maybe what I'm really asking here is to justify me trying one out.  I've sure been looking at them a fair bit lately.


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## Noodle Soup

My interest started a number of years ago after a great meal in a Chinese restaurant in Vancouver BC followed by a visit to a Chinese kitchenware shop next door. Bought two cleavers there. Then i bought two more in Seattle's China town and then two more in Portland's Chinatown. It kind of snowballed after that. I don't know how many cleavers I have but trips to mainland China and Hong Kong certainly added a few. I do have a couple of nakiri I use a fair amount. I call them my curry knives because they are great for cutting up small amounts of the mix I need to make homemade curry paste.


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## HumbleHomeCook

Noodle Soup said:


> My interest started a number of years ago after a great meal in a Chinese restaurant in Vancouver BC followed by a visit to a Chinese kitchenware shop next door. Bought two cleavers there. Then i bought two more in Seattle's China town and then two more in Portland's Chinatown. It kind of snowballed after that. I don't know how many cleavers I have but trips to mainland China and Hong Kong certainly added a few. I do have a couple of nakiri I use a fair amount. I call them my curry knives because they are great for cutting up small amounts of the mix I need to make homemade curry paste.



That brings up another question around cuisine type. I'm guessing a lot of folks out there use these as a gyuto substitute if you will. Meaning, they cook all manner of food types and not heavily focused on East Asian cuisine.

Right?


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## tostadas

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Okay cleaver freaks, were you always one or did you evolve into them? Were nakiri a gateway for you?
> 
> I fond them equally fascinating as ridiculous. I don't mean that with any disrespect, just thinking about the idea of me using one. But I do love my Wat Pro 180...
> 
> Maybe what I'm really asking here is to justify me trying one out.  I've sure been looking at them a fair bit lately.


A cleaver can be used as a scoop/shovel to move stuff around really easily during prep. Also, a cleaver still has a tip. I'd say they're highly practical, and a large part of the world would agree.

I've tried a nakiri before but didn't care for the shape and gave it away.



HumbleHomeCook said:


> That brings up another question around cuisine type. I'm guessing a lot of folks out there use these as a gyuto substitute if you will. Meaning, they cook all manner of food types and not heavily focused on East Asian cuisine.
> 
> Right?


Yea I make my fair share of asian cuisine, but the cleaver is equally useful for other types of food where you need to make big pieces of stuff into smaller ones.


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## Noodle Soup

Maybe. After all the Chinese, Thai, Viet, Malaysian, Hong Kong, and Cambodian cooking schools I've been through, a cleaver of some type seems pretty natural to me.


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## SwampDonkey

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Okay cleaver freaks, were you always one or did you evolve into them? Were nakiri a gateway for you?
> 
> I fond them equally fascinating as ridiculous. I don't mean that with any disrespect, just thinking about the idea of me using one. But I do love my Wat Pro 180...
> 
> Maybe what I'm really asking here is to justify me trying one out.  I've sure been looking at them a fair bit lately.


I'm a nakiri preacher and finally succumbed to temptation for that King Chopper blue 1...because I want big thin nakiri. I shall report back soon


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## BillHanna

My journey is chronicled in this very thread lol


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## demirtasem

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Okay cleaver freaks, were you always one or did you evolve into them? Were nakiri a gateway for you?
> 
> I find them equally fascinating as ridiculous. I don't mean that with any disrespect, just thinking about the idea of me using one. But I do love my Wat Pro 180...
> 
> Maybe what I'm really asking here is to justify me trying one out.  I've sure been looking at them a fair bit lately.


There is a great post about comparing cleaver and nakiri from Chef Doom. I added the link below in case you didn't read it.






Vegetable cleaver vs nakiri


The thread about future trends and Chef Doom's comment sparked a question in my mind. Instead of polluting the other thread, I am asking a separate question. What are the benefits of vegetable cleaver vs nakiri. I've used CCK 1303 and liked it a lot, not enough to give up gyutos, but I see how...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## blokey

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Okay cleaver freaks, were you always one or did you evolve into them? Were nakiri a gateway for you?
> 
> I find them equally fascinating as ridiculous. I don't mean that with any disrespect, just thinking about the idea of me using one. But I do love my Wat Pro 180...
> 
> Maybe what I'm really asking here is to justify me trying one out.  I've sure been looking at them a fair bit lately.


I am Chinese so I am more used to cleavers, it is shame modern companies can't make them more appealing to people like gyuto or santoku, I hope with more custom makers getting on the train it will change.


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## deltaplex

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Okay cleaver freaks, were you always one or did you evolve into them? Were nakiri a gateway for you?
> 
> I find them equally fascinating as ridiculous. I don't mean that with any disrespect, just thinking about the idea of me using one. But I do love my Wat Pro 180...
> 
> Maybe what I'm really asking here is to justify me trying one out.  I've sure been looking at them a fair bit lately.


I just got one early on because it was cheap and I try to try as much as I can within whatever thing draws my interest. I don't find them all that similar to nakiris, even if the shape is roughly similar. The things I like about them are that due to the height, they have good weight and forward balance for the edge length, and that height also gives them a good amount of rigidity, again for the edge length.


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## BillHanna

Porto has proven to be a very fun and capable slicer. I wish it was full size. It’s fully patinated, so it’s on the the 52100 daovua that those jabronis recently made taller than the one I have


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## HumbleHomeCook




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## Jville

BillHanna said:


> Porto has proven to be a very fun and capable slicer. I wish it was full size. It’s fully patinated, so it’s on the the 52100 daovua that those jabronis recently made taller than the one I have


Yeah I’m really digging mine from Felipe.


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