# Watanabe Price Increase



## lemeneid (Jan 30, 2019)

Saw this on his website, everything's going up 15% on 1st March, so better stock up first. Just wanted to let everyone know 

Any other makers bumping up prices??


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## daddy yo yo (Jan 30, 2019)

Glad I already have 8 Watanabe knives and don’t need more...


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## Maccne0718 (Jan 30, 2019)

Have a couple Watanabe knives and thinking of getting one more now


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## Ruso (Jan 30, 2019)

Im glad I don’t to business with this man. He can increase the prices by factor of 1000, and I would not care.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 30, 2019)

From what I’ve seen, thats on the lower side. Seen and heard 10 to 100 percent thus far on certain knives.


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## Xenif (Jan 30, 2019)

Here comes the crazy Watanabe buying train ...... 
I just want that Nakiri


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## Interapid101 (Jan 30, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> From what I’ve seen, thats on the lower side. Seen and heard 10 to 100 percent thus far on certain knives.



If the price goes up that much, I don't see anyone choosing a Watanabe over a Toyama, except for maybe the nakiri.


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 30, 2019)

I no longer have any Wat blades. Never found them to my liking. All I know is 400 bucks for a Kasumi blade with a cheesy handle is going to drive people to other smiths.


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## Gregmega (Jan 30, 2019)

Probably the wrong thread here, but I’m set to receive my first in Feb. so the handle is lousy?


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 30, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Probably the wrong thread here, but I’m set to receive my first in Feb. so the handle is lousy?


I don’t think he’s ever put a huge emphasis on handles. Standard handles were always very basic.


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## labor of love (Jan 30, 2019)

Keyaki handles are nice though.
Also, carbonknifecompany has friendly wat prices.


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## ashy2classy (Jan 30, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Keyaki handles are nice though.
> Also, carbonknifecompany has friendly wat prices.



I've been staring at a KU 240 on their website for the last hour or so. I don't need it, but it's tempting...


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## Cyrilix (Jan 30, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I no longer have any Wat blades. Never found them to my liking. All I know is 500 bucks for a Kasumi blade with a cheesy handle is going to drive people to other smiths.



The 270mm gyuto with ho wood and buffalo horn (pretty standard but decent handle) is only $360 USD. I wouldn't consider this to be a bad deal by any stretch. Not even close.


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## daddy yo yo (Jan 30, 2019)

ashy2classy said:


> I've been staring at a KU 240 on their website for the last hour or so. I don't need it, but it's tempting...


Do it!


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 30, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> The 270mm gyuto with ho wood and buffalo horn (pretty standard but decent handle) is only $360 USD. I wouldn't consider this to be a bad deal by any stretch. Not even close.




Whoops, I hit a 5 instead of a 4. Frozen fingers!


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## jacko9 (Jan 30, 2019)

I purchased the Wat 180mm KU Pro Nakiri with the Saya and it's fantastic. I'm glad i got mine before the price increase. I also payed a little extra to get the buffalo horn instead of the plastic on the handle.


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## esoo (Jan 30, 2019)

I've been eyeing the Nakiri for a while, but at this point I'm potentially have to spend a bunch on car items so this is getting pushed to the back burner.


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## jacko9 (Jan 30, 2019)

I'm glad I got mine before I brought my MDX in for servicing - dam I hate that vehicle.


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## Elliot (Jan 31, 2019)

To play Devil's Advocate here:

Even with an increase, Watanabe will still represent excellent value -- just my opinion, of course. I have the ballyhooed Nakiri, which absolutely lives up to reputation, and then a special petty I grabbed.

Sure, we would all love to see prices never change, but, to be honest, the man has to make a living and provide for his.


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## Elliot (Jan 31, 2019)

I did the math for fun. 

Current price of 180mm Nakiri in USD: About $211.
With increase: $242.

I mean, honestly, a top flight knife in its class for less than $250. Still a steal. Just sayin'


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## Elliot (Jan 31, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Probably the wrong thread here, but I’m set to receive my first in Feb. so the handle is lousy?



Handles are not his strong suit, at least in my limited experience. Honestly, you can probably get Jon to toss on something nice pretty easily if its a knife you covet. 
My petty has a sort of scratchy ho wood that I just don't care enough to replace. 

And I am definitely replacing the one that comes on the Nakiri, which has a plastic ferrule.


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## labor of love (Jan 31, 2019)

I’ve read before that wat handles are the same as Toyama handles. They’re just basic handles.


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## Sharpchef (Jan 31, 2019)

Really o no! maybe the same handles as on other J-knifes... This magnolia stuff with buffalo ferrule ???? I would never buy stuff like this  ....

Greets Sebastian.


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## labor of love (Jan 31, 2019)

I’m just trying to illustrate where on the handle quality spectrum wat handles fall.


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## Elliot (Jan 31, 2019)

The ho handles have buffalo and are fine. Nothing "nice," but acceptable. The pro series, unfortunately, comes standard with a decent wood, but plastic ferrule. . . sorta kills it.


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## Sharpchef (Jan 31, 2019)

To go against this total fancy price increase i ordered some Watanabe blanks, and let them grind by Xerxes, one got a handle by Moosschmiede (one of germans finest knife makers !) , Saya by austrias upcomming Star WundererAmEisen and Finish by Suntravel (a knifenut with golden hands on grinding machines!) .....








greets Sebastian.


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## ashy2classy (Jan 31, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> To go against this total fancy price increase i ordered some Watanabe blanks, and let them grind by Xerxes, one got a handle by Moosschmiede (one of germans finest knife makers !) , Saya by austrias upcomming Star WundererAmEisen and Finish by Suntravel (a knifenut with golden hands on grinding machines!) .....
> greets Sebastian.



YOOOOO! That looks great! Did you just contact him to order the blanks?


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## Elliot (Jan 31, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> To go against this total fancy price increase i ordered some Watanabe blanks, and let them grind by Xerxes, one got a handle by Moosschmiede (one of germans finest knife makers !) , Saya by austrias upcomming Star WundererAmEisen and Finish by Suntravel (a knifenut with golden hands on grinding machines!) .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gorgeous!


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## Sharpchef (Jan 31, 2019)

This was just an idea for my community (german forum KMS) ... And if i say blanks i mean blanks... The blades i got from him where just heat treated... No Grind on them... And not cheap by any means but worth every cent if you like japanese steel, because Watanabe does the best HT in Japan for sure!

Even his standart line outclasses other Shirogami knives by miles.....

Greets Sebastian.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 31, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> Watanabe does the best HT in Japan for sure!


Thats a strong statement. Love to know what makes you think this.


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## Elliot (Jan 31, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Thats a strong statement. Love to know what makes you think this.



Curious as well. I think he does a great job, no doubt. . . but. . . TF? Ikeda? Others surely would have something to say.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 31, 2019)

Not to mention Mizuno


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## Elliot (Jan 31, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not to mention Mizuno



Glad to see someone mention that. One of the larger and more reputable brands I have YET to touch at all. 
Was eyeing the honyaki Koki carries for a bit, but sorta moved on.


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## Sharpchef (Jan 31, 2019)

egolan said:


> Curious as well. I think he does a great job, no doubt. . . but. . . TF? Ikeda? Others surely would have something to say.



I don´´t even own a Watanabe by myself, but i testet quite a few japanese blades, and really the only i can consider as good are watanabe blades....

If you ask me what i have testet ? : Mizuno, TF (they did a great job too, but FF is worse... **** the handles..... blade is the thing to mention!, ) Tanaka, Toyama (also good but not as.....)., Kato, other 2 Katos..., Shigefusa (wrong steel...), Yoshikane, Ashi, etc.....) ...

Test it and if you can sharpen (no Jiig thing really... ) you will know. In all regards Watanabe is the only one i can take serious.... 

Greets Sebastian.


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## Sharpchef (Jan 31, 2019)

And sorry, i forgot to mention, this is no strong statement, this is reality  .

Greets Sebastian.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 31, 2019)

Yes, but you said Wat did the best HT in Japan. I think many would disagree. I would not make blanket statements without evidence.

Sure if you are considering the complete package TF does have some issues, but in the HT dept they are hard to beat.


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## Sharpchef (Jan 31, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Yes, but you said Wat did the best HT in Japan. I think many would disagree. I would not make blanket statements without evidence.
> 
> Sure if you are considering the complete package TF does have some issues, but in the HT dept they are hard to beat.



As said, he does.... TF is nice but not quite as good. 

What you are considering as an evidence ? I can cut nearly two times longer with Watanabe Aogami 2 knifes and Shirogami knifes.... ? how can i prove it ? do i have to prove it ? I think no.... Test it by yourself and you will see. 

Greets Sebastian....


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## Sharpchef (Jan 31, 2019)

But be aware! i just could be a stupid influencer......  You wou`nt know until you try....


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## Anton (Jan 31, 2019)

cough cough


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## HRC_64 (Jan 31, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> But be aware! i just could be a stupid influencer......  You wou`nt know until you try....



AFAIK TF and Wat don't really use the same steels...


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## Sharpchef (Jan 31, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> AFAIK TF and Wat don't really use the same steels...



That`s what i said...


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## Chicagohawkie (Jan 31, 2019)

Heiji knives have a nice treatment? In my opinion real nice!


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 31, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> AFAIK TF and Wat don't really use the same steels...


That is true according to TF. Their W#1 and AS are not standard off the shelf Hitachi steels, but proprietary formulations that are optimized for their HT.


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## HRC_64 (Jan 31, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> Even his standart line outclasses other Shirogami knives by miles.....



This kind of comment isn't useful,
even if its just sarcasm (which I hope it is)...



> Santoku knife from standard line. The knife is made of stainless clad blue steel.



...SMH


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## Elliot (Jan 31, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> This kind of comment isn't useful,
> even if its just sarcasm (which I hope it is)...



Hope so too. Again, I am a fan of Shinchi and think his knives (probably along with Wakui and Yoshikane) may be among the very best value. But, BEST HT? I don't know. Surely good. Surely.


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## never mind (Jan 31, 2019)

Popcorn arrives. Round 25 of Watanabe vs TFTFTF!


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## Xenif (Jan 31, 2019)

Gonna watch this thread while I go and sharpen my Hinoura .. oh wait .. I'm done


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## Elliot (Jan 31, 2019)

Xenif said:


> Gonna watch this thread while I go and sharpen my Hinoura .. oh wait .. I'm done



BOOM.


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## Jon-cal (Jan 31, 2019)

never mind said:


> Popcorn arrives. Round 25 of Watanabe vs TFTFTF!



I always feel like I’m missing something when these threads come up. What is it about these particular makers (and vendors?) that turns threads all crazy with people fiercely defending/attacking everybody involved. It’s entertaining to watch, but I don’t really get it


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## alterwisser (Jan 31, 2019)

Jon-cal said:


> I always feel like I’m missing something when these threads come up. What is it about these particular makers (and vendors?) that turns threads all crazy with people fiercely defending/attacking everybody involved. It’s entertaining to watch, but I don’t really get it



No one knows. Just grab some popcorn, a cold one and enjoy the ride ...


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## labor of love (Jan 31, 2019)

The answer is Heiji. Then TF. Wat still sits at the front of the bus but Nakaya is driving it.


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## daveb (Jan 31, 2019)

never mind said:


> Popcorn arrives. Round 25 of Watanabe vs TFTFTF!



Wish we had some pretty Card Girls.


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## Ruso (Jan 31, 2019)

Wow!!! We have an HT expert in da House! Go girl or boy whatever u prefer!


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## valgard (Jan 31, 2019)

I think Toyamanabe is the best blue steel I have used, Togashi blue 1 honyaki right there tho, hard to tell.


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## frampton (Jan 31, 2019)

Interapid101 said:


> If the price goes up that much, I don't see anyone choosing a Watanabe over a Toyama, except for maybe the nakiri.



I don’t know, the Toyama Nakiri is pretty nice.


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## Omega (Jan 31, 2019)

I don't know if I agree with "Watanabe has the best heat treat in all of Japan". Have you felt Yoshikazu Tanaka's blue steel? He gets absurdly hard, without being chippy. Some people praise other brands without realizing he's actually the one supplying their blades before sharpening. 

That said, I DO think Watanabe is very, very good. How long his initial edges last, despite being pounded on poly board? That's more than just good sharpening technique. Man knows his blue steel.


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## Cyrilix (Jan 31, 2019)

Omega said:


> I don't know if I agree with "Watanabe has the best heat treat in all of Japan". Have you felt Yoshikazu Tanaka's blue steel? He gets absurdly hard, without being chippy. Some people praise other brands without realizing he's actually the one supplying their blades before sharpening.
> 
> That said, I DO think Watanabe is very, very good. How long his initial edges last, despite being pounded on poly board? That's more than just good sharpening technique. Man knows his blue steel.



Which brands sell Yoshikazu Tanaka's knives?


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## valgard (Feb 1, 2019)

Omega said:


> I don't know if I agree with "Watanabe has the best heat treat in all of Japan". Have you felt Yoshikazu Tanaka's blue steel? He gets absurdly hard, without being chippy. Some people praise other brands without realizing he's actually the one supplying their blades before sharpening.
> 
> That said, I DO think Watanabe is very, very good. How long his initial edges last, despite being pounded on poly board? That's more than just good sharpening technique. Man knows his blue steel.


I've used and sharpened his Blue 1 for the Tsubaya KU line. While very nice, not even close to how easy it is to cleanly deburr Watanabe/Toyama.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 1, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Which brands sell Yoshikazu Tanaka's knives?


konosuke


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## Elliot (Feb 1, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Which brands sell Yoshikazu Tanaka's knives?



Also Sakai Kikumori.


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## esoo (Feb 1, 2019)

labor of love said:


> The answer is Heiji. Then TF. Wat still sits at the front of the bus but Nakaya is driving it.


Carbon, semi-stainless or both?


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## refcast (Feb 1, 2019)

Having used both Heiji semi and carbon, both. . . but really, each maker HT are going for different things, which is good and important because people can pick and choose, so we can even have conversations like this.


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## never mind (Feb 1, 2019)

Thank you. What’s the heat treatment that Heiji carbon is going for? Why did you pick his heat treatment over other knife makers?


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## Matus (Feb 1, 2019)

I just asked Shinichi about the price of blanks and while I did not expect to get them cheap (since they apparently hand forge them) they cost about 80% of a pro kasumi gyuto in the same size. Still, it would be a cool project.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 1, 2019)

Matus said:


> I just asked Shinichi about the price of blanks and while I did not expect to get them cheap (since they apparently hand forge them) they cost about 80% of a pro kasumi gyuto in the same size. Still, it would be a cool project.



There was a thread recently with DT working on (albeit monosteel) Sabatier blanks, 
where he said it was more 'work' to finish some blanks than make a new knife.

Would be interesting to see what they look like, for sure.


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## refcast (Feb 1, 2019)

*note i used only watanabe honyaki, which is supposed to be either practically the same (per what watanabe says on his website), or by honyaki magic, better than his san mai. i think it just depends on overall ht more than anything.

Heiji carbon characteristics:

Edge: the slickest stickiest edge I've felt, which is the polar opposite of say, HAP40 forged by Gihei, which has such a rounded edge--never getting to ultimate sharpness, but also not chipping because it doesn't get so thin . . . at least it feels that way. watanabe is going more toward the HAP40 side for carbon steel, which is really remarkable, as it still has that carbon sharpness. Heiji steel doesn't attempt for that kind of edge retention, it gets just enough, but goes hard on the sharpness ability

Sharpening: pretty enjoyable, though actually, I prefer his semistainless to sharpen, and both teruyasu fujiwara denka and mab were easier to sharpen. i agree with valgard that the watanabe is easier to deburr, as what steel that does come off is just gone. . . its like the steel doesn't like to deform or wear down. the heiji steel feels like you're peeling new steel away. . . so heiji like writing fine hard chalk on concrete like kids do. watanabe like running a wood stick on concrete. kinda.

Summary: It's just cause tf and heiji are really sharp i guess. i know people say it depends on the sharpening ability, yeah, that's true, but heiji just got sharper faster, and then tf is just behind. watanabe is in different category cause the ht emphasizes that tough retention feeling i guess, at least for japanese steels philosophy. tf steel has more retention than heiji, so it kinda gets that rounded "feeling", as its harder. . . sometimes harder steel makes it less immediate in the cut or something.

what i mean by rounded is, if you do a push cut, it takes a little force before it goes in. more rounded, more force i guess. seriously though, i don't know if they are actually rounded, that's just how i can describe it.. Of these heiji IS the softest, relatively speaking. . . does not mean softer is always better. . .but i guess that just happens to be where the sweet spot is. . . but there are plenty of knives that hit similar hardness that feel very different.


Heiji semi:
just add a little roundedness feeling. but still, very heiji like above. just emphasize toward alloy and wear resistance. i guess maybe he treats his carbon harder, becuase it was harder to sharpen. this felt more sandy. 
what i mean is. carbon is hard matrix, fine carbides that aren't that much harder. semi is slightly softer matrix chockkk full of a bunch of hardddd, kinda nice size carbides (somehow!!) . at least feels that way. that's what most semi -stainless steels seem to be like to me--a lot more carbide volume. so the chock full of carbides makes it like , you rip the tip of a piece of carbide and it rips out the rest with it, or something like that, but on a finee scale.


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## daveb (Feb 1, 2019)

And where does Hide fit into this continuum?


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## refcast (Feb 1, 2019)

I only had a Gesshin Hide gyuto 240mm in white 2 and Gesshin Hide yanagiba 270 mm in blue 1. (again, my experiences . . . have limits and qualifications)

Hide blue 1:
was about as wear resistant to sharpen as watanabe. kinda hard to compare . . .Hide was not as hard, but more carbon, so that's the different feeling there. sharpness is about on par with Watanabe, . . . if not a little less agressive and more on the refined side, actually.

Hide white 2:
was more wear resistant than Yoshihiro white 2 and everything except Watanabe and of course Gihei. it was kinda of a fun knife but to low in height for me. sharpness was almost a tier above Ginga, but i would but like TF and Heiji 2 tiers above Ginga. Watanabe would be like 1.5, almost there. really though Ginga tier sharpness is satisfactory. i'd be okay with that as my only knife. hide is a little harder than the Ginga.

But they are all sharp and shave and cut hair!!! It's just . . . at that top tier, weird stuff happens . . . heiji for instance doesn't cut hair down the middle . . . it likes to grab and shave little white shavings. . .. as opposed to say tf which is the most vicious straight just cuts stuff through . . . a little less nuance but a different kind of performance. I like Heiji kinda of nuance better for my cutting.

As for wedging . . . yeah, super hydrated veggies wedge a lot of stuff. but so far i like cutting everything, including those hydrated ones, with the Heiji over the Ginga i have. . . though they're for different purposes, and i like them both.

Like if i don't want my produce to be 'bent' i use the Ginga (because the thickness slightly bends the produce . . . making it more opaque and softer). so structures are crispest for the thinnest knife. and surfaces are glossiest for the 'sharpest' steel . . . for some reason if i micro diamond polish a 'less sharp' steel up, the cut is watery still . . . and not 'glossy'.

And anyway these are my feelings of 'sharp' . . . . there certain feelings of sharp that i've felt with different types of steel. the tf super - cut. the Heiji - super nuance feeling edge. anyway like i had said in the past, Watanabe steel feels way more stable and confident, and less risk taking. it doesn't want to get 'that' sharp (which is still realllll sharp anyway), so it can get better edge retention and toughness.

For toughness, i like a more brittleish steel with a super compound microbevel . . . i like this compromise out of the things I've tried. it's just thin (as much as i can!!) immediately behind the edge and make the apex a parabola, with like one or two light swipes both sides at 30 degrees, for a double bevel, or higher, or more swipes. . . this is to negate the 'bitey' effects of those more sharpness-seeking steels . . .they cut into things they can't handle wiithout deforming. this works only if i don't do heavy heavy use tasks. carrots are fine. squash . . .i want a thicker or more obtused edge.

Maker's HT varies way more than the own maker between their different steels. . . so far.


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## daveb (Feb 1, 2019)

Ntxt


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## refcast (Feb 1, 2019)

Ntxt = no text?

Roughly

*Sharpness**
Tier 1a: Heiji carbon > Heiji semi >TF
Tier 1b: TF denka > TF mab > Heiji
Tier 2 : Wat Blue 2> Hide blue 1 > Hide white 2

*Toughness*
Tier 1: Hide White 2~> Wat > Hide Blue 1
Tier 2: Heiji ~> TF

*Ease to sharpen***
Tier 1a: Heiji carbon > Heiji semi > TF both 
Tier 1b: Heiji semi ~>TF > Heiji carbon
Tier 2: Wat ~ Hide white 2 ~ Hide blue 1

*Edge Retention*
Tier 1: TF denka ~ Heiji semi ~ Wat ~> Heiji carbon
Tier 2: Hide blue 2 > Hide white 2

*two types of sharp
1a: thinner slices were possible with great control and feel 
1b: bites into everything indiscriminately including horizontal paper towel; often can't feel the cut in food 

**two types of pleasantness
1a: sharpening feel in refining the edge
1b: bulk sharpening speed


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## daveb (Feb 1, 2019)

Sry. Couldn't reply on phone app. Got it fixed. Did a test. Ntxt was a code comment back in my college days when I learned all I know about computers. Does FORTRAN still rule?


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## zeaderan (Feb 2, 2019)

Bought the 180 pro from the site after seeing the heads up and Just thought I'd share for anyone who might benefit that I found out that the fx conversation was cheaper for me if I switched PayPal to use my bank/credit card fx rate instead of PayPals rate. Total for nakiri+horn upgrade+shipping was 29700 yen or at the time $281.63 through PayPal but after switching to credit card rate (used a card that doesn't charge international fees) it only charged me $273.76 when I checked my bank receipt


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## daddy yo yo (Feb 2, 2019)

zeaderan said:


> Bought the 180 pro from the site after seeing the heads up and Just thought I'd share for anyone who might benefit that I found out that the fx conversation was cheaper for me if I switched PayPal to use my bank/credit card fx rate instead of PayPals rate. Total for nakiri+horn upgrade+shipping was 29700 yen or at the time $281.63 through PayPal but after switching to credit card rate (used a card that doesn't charge international fees) it only charged me $273.76 when I checked my bank receipt


That is nothing new. PayPal always is a rip-off... They benefit twice in one transaction: buyer pays their fax rate, seller pays their fees...

I prefer to do transactions without PayPal as soon as I know someone is trustworthy...


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## bahamaroot (Feb 2, 2019)

zeaderan said:


> Bought the 180 pro from the site after seeing the heads up and Just thought I'd share for anyone who might benefit that I found out that the fx conversation was cheaper for me if I switched PayPal to use my bank/credit card fx rate instead of PayPals rate. Total for nakiri+horn upgrade+shipping was 29700 yen or at the time $281.63 through PayPal but after switching to credit card rate (used a card that doesn't charge international fees) it only charged me $273.76 when I checked my bank receipt


I never let PayPal do currency conversions, my credit card always has better rates. I skip PayPal all together when buying from an overseas retailer. Like you said though, you do need to know the overseas transaction terms of your card.


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