# New Kitchen - Cooktops From 2 different brands?



## Sb1994 (Feb 11, 2022)

Guys, need help please.

designing kitchen (pic 1) for new build and will have sink on island, refrigeration on side, and range on “larger” countertop. That said, was think of getting deep fryer (which isn’t same depth as range) and steamer (which also isn’t same depth as range). Problem is that the deep fryer needs ventilation and steamer needs plumbing. So, all is good if I put deep fryer next to range and ventilation will coverthe fryer and range and if I put steamer next to sink since plumbing on that side. But will this just look weird?







steamer and deep fryer below











my attempt to show how these units look next to range


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## Jovidah (Feb 11, 2022)

I'd rather use a steamer insert and occasionally drag my deepfryer out of the closet than to waste counterspace on having 2 permanently installed devices for it.
But I'm somewhat allergic to unitask items, so that's mostly personal preference.


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## Michi (Feb 11, 2022)

It's not going to look great. I'd be inclined to buy the whole set from the manufacturer, so things match and line up.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 11, 2022)

You guys both right I think - thank you. Steamer and deep fryer free basically since I bought boatload of stuff and I’ve always coveted Gaggenau items. But just looks out of whack Hestan range. Lemme see, the cabinet maker will do renderings

either way, appreciate the thoughts.

also, here’s how it looked in show room. Love it but have heard downdrafts don’t work. Especially for deep fryers and grill (in the middle). They would charge me for the downdraft only - about $4.5k. Was thinking of buying the lot and having another “cooking” station but May be pain in neck for the plumbing and venting


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## Sb1994 (Feb 11, 2022)

And I would use the hell out of the deep fryer - shrimp, fish and intense smelling stuff and worried downdraft can’t withstand this type stuff


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## Michi (Feb 11, 2022)

I think the argument about single-use appliances is strong. Having something like this built-in is nice. But, face it: you are not going to use the deep fryer anywhere near as often as the cooktop (or so one would hope  )

Dedicating all that extra bench space is an expensive trade-off to make. And, as @Sb1994 pointed out, for steaming, it's easy to use the cooktop and a pot with a steamer insert. Or get an oven with a steaming function. That would be my preferred option, simply because that space is going to be taken up no matter what. And a steaming function is also great for baking bread.


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## Delat (Feb 12, 2022)

If you’d use the deep fryer regularly then go for it. I personally wouldn’t have a problem with it not being the same brand as the cooktop as long as they were all the same finish, e.g. stainless steel. I wouldn’t trust a downdraft for a deep fryer - that vaporized oil is tough to capture and you definitely don’t want it escaping and building up on your cabinets, walls, and furniture.

The only problem I’d have with your overall design is just a single sink on the island. Personally I’d put a primary cleanup sink on the main counter and leave a small prep sink on the island. We tend to stack stuff in and around the sink then clean it up every couple days, so it would look pretty bad having that on an island. But if you clean up every day I guess it’d be ok.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 12, 2022)

Love the advice guys. Thank you!!!

talking to siematic tomorrow on the 2 sinks!!


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## coxhaus (Feb 12, 2022)

I would not want anything right next to my 36-inch range. I need to set stuff on both sides of my counter next to my range. Trying to work from 1 side would not be good. I thought about a 48-inch range and sometimes I wish I had bought it but then there are times I am glad I did not. I have plenty of counter space.


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## MarcelNL (Feb 12, 2022)

we just designed the new kitchen (Siematic), basically what Michi said...no single purpose items, an oven that does real steam (low pressure vs high pressure) -we had one in the previous house and I LOVED it, some do sous vide, steam, baking, slow cooking....
Deep frying gets done outside, so does stir frying as there is no extraction fan short of a whopping large industrial unit that can handle that and keep in mind that an extraction fan can only extract enough when enough fresh air is coming into the room.


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## WildBoar (Feb 12, 2022)

We had no problem with mixing appliances/ makers. Also keep in mind no one will be viewing your kitchen layout from that 'drone' view used in the rendering.

My caution would be about the loss of usable countertop space immediately adjacent to the sink and cooktop. That is valuable space that support washing and cooking operations. So when those devices are in use (or still have the lids open because they are cooling down, etc.) the washing and cooking operations will be hampered a bit.

Running a water supply to the steamer is no big deal. It can enter the cabinets at the sink, and then tee off and be routed through the back of an adjacent cabinet if you want it to be located away from the sink a bit. The fryer is a bigger issue sine it really needs to be under the vent hood.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 12, 2022)

Good point. That deep fryer sounds awesome and wife and I always wanted one but we may have to keep using pot and strainer like others have said. It does look obtuse next to the Hestan. Steamer May be a possibility though.

think you’re absolutely right on counter space next to sink and cooktop. So if omit the fryer, I can place the steamer next to range? Not directly next to it since it doesn’t need ventilation but somewhat close?

Thx for weighing in.


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## MarcelNL (Feb 12, 2022)

something like this works great, I keep mine stocked with organic bovine kidney fat 






Fritel Turbo SF 4551 5L - Coolblue - Voor 23.59u, morgen in huis


Bestel de Fritel Turbo SF 4551 5L bij Coolblue. Voor 23.59u? Morgen gratis bezorgd. Ook op zondag! Coolblue: alles voor een glimlach.




www.coolblue.nl


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## Sb1994 (Feb 12, 2022)

MarcelNL said:


> something like this works great, I keep mine stocked with organic bovine kidney fat
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice. Never thought of animal fat but great idea. Love anything cooked in duck fat!!!


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## Jovidah (Feb 12, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I would not want anything right next to my 36-inch range. I need to set stuff on both sides of my counter next to my range. Trying to work from 1 side would not be good. I thought about a 48-inch range and sometimes I wish I had bought it but then there are times I am glad I did not. I have plenty of counter space.


Yeah I failed to really make this point. It's not just that you're losing counter-space... you're losing counter-space right next to your stove. Which is IMO the prime real-estate that is most useful in cooking - especially if you're cutting on the go. While I sometimes do it I find it distinctly inefficient to either cut on my island with my back to the stove, or cut a few meters away from my stove.
Something like Marcel posted is also what I'd personally prefer - even if I could get the built-in fryer for free. But again that's a very personal choice, so just take this as 'some opinion from some random dude on the internet', not gospel.

Delat also makes a fair point about 1 sink. The kitchen looks large enough that you might be able to fit in a 'dirty corner' with a sink / sink area devoted to dishes and a 'food-prep sink', in different areas.

You could also consider having a slight overhang on the island to have some bar seating space. Iduno, personally I found out that whenever we have people over we invariably end up hanging around and eating around the kitchen island instead of the dining table, but that might be completely different for you. But it's a very simple / tiny change; just have a slight overhang on at least one side and add a feel bar stools.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 12, 2022)

thinking to omit deep fryer altogether now although I love the steam cooker. Wife daughters and I going to siematic a bit later today to discuss. 

Thx again guys. Glad I posted here


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## Dan- (Feb 12, 2022)

Unless you REALLY want it, I'd avoid a large sink in the island. Small prep sink sure, but between the loss of the most useful prep space and the visual clutter a drainboard brings, it just stinks.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 12, 2022)

Was thinking kohler prolific. 44”. Island is 10’ by 4’


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## McMan (Feb 12, 2022)

I agree--a bar sink on the island and a work sink on the same wall as the stove. Plus, with that layout it'd be easy to plumb a wall faucet behind the stove if you wanted one.

I might suggest rethinking the entire layout though... My read of these plans is a layout that lacks flow and work paths with an island placement that's a barrier not a benefit.

The way it is now, with the sink on the island only, will have you doing a lot of 180-turns to go from stove to sink. The fridge is in a location where it is only convenient to the island, so you'll find yourself using that corner of the island as either a landing strip or a prep counter, which potentially makes the fridge-to-counter-to-stove path also depend on 180-turns. This could be avoided if there was counter space to the right of the stove, but there's little real estate there. And the flow to get from the fridge to the counter to the left of the stove is a weird S-path to avoid the island. Plus, the fridge-to-sink path is an S-path too. 

Also, there are no upper cabinets on the stove wall, so that's all space that trades function for aesthetics. I can see why they might not be wanted--it'd clutter a clear wall--but perhaps the workaround is to put a bank of lowers, middle, uppers all the way to the left in the corner and sacrifice a bit of counter space there for the sake of storage? I don't know how long you plan to stay in the house, but bending over for everything stops getting fun at a certain point 

I hope I don't sound like a kitchen grump... I know kitchens are very personal. For me, I'd be bumping into things, spinning like a top, and grumpy to be constantly bending over.


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## MarcelNL (Feb 12, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> Yeah I failed to really make this point. It's not just that you're losing counter-space... you're losing counter-space right next to your stove. Which is IMO the prime real-estate that is most useful in cooking - especially if you're cutting on the go. While I sometimes do it I find it distinctly inefficient to either cut on my island with my back to the stove, or cut a few meters away from my stove.
> Something like Marcel posted is also what I'd personally prefer - even if I could get the built-in fryer for free. But again that's a very personal choice, so just take this as 'some opinion from some random dude on the internet', not gospel.
> 
> Delat also makes a fair point about 1 sink. The kitchen looks large enough that you might be able to fit in a 'dirty corner' with a sink / sink area devoted to dishes and a 'food-prep sink', in different areas.
> ...


guess you were present when we designed the new kitchen


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## Sb1994 (Feb 12, 2022)

McMan said:


> I agree--a bar sink on the island and a work sink on the same wall as the stove. Plus, with that layout it'd be easy to plumb a wall faucet behind the stove if you wanted one.
> 
> I might suggest rethinking the entire layout though... My read of these plans is a layout that lacks flow and work paths with an island placement that's a barrier not a benefit.
> 
> ...



Great advice and thx

first 4pics are of kitchens we just LOVE and wanted to emulate to some extent. Next few pic kitchen right now -we will tear out after we move in around March 5 or so. Next pic is of floor to ceiling cabinets “opened”

never thought to have 2 sinks but love the idea. don’t want to add more cabinets on other side of kitchen since we have 3 windows.
FYI - 36” Hestan range, Liebherr fridge and freezer, walGaggenau combi microwave/oven and mini Liebherr wine fridge Please see pics below.





































guys - thanks again!!!!!!!


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## Delat (Feb 12, 2022)

McMan said:


> I agree--a bar sink on the island and a work sink on the same wall as the stove. Plus, with that layout it'd be easy to plumb a wall faucet behind the stove if you wanted one.
> 
> I might suggest rethinking the entire layout though... My read of these plans is a layout that lacks flow and work paths with an island placement that's a barrier not a benefit.
> 
> ...



This is how my prep area is configured and it’s actually really convenient. I have a prep sink on the island opposite the stove. And the fridge is to the side facing the island. When I need a bit of water it’s super convenient to literally just turn around and turn back, vs taking a few steps over to the main sink. If I need to do last-minute cutting of something I forgot, then I just put a board next to the cooktop.

The arrangement keeps paths pretty short between fridge, prep sink, and cooktop while leaving me plenty of room on both sides of the cooktop and a huge island to spread out my ingredients while prepping. I also have a drawer for trash directly below the prep area, whereas the cabinets in and around the cooktop are all pots and various cooking sundries (pots and pans, prep bowls, oils, vinegars, flour, salt, sugar, etc).


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## Sb1994 (Feb 12, 2022)

Delat said:


> This is how my prep area is configured and it’s actually really convenient. I have a prep sink on the island opposite the stove. And the fridge is to the side facing the island. When I need a bit of water it’s super convenient to literally just turn around and turn back, vs taking a few steps over to the main sink. If I need to do last-minute cutting of something I forgot, then I just put a board next to the cooktop.
> 
> The arrangement keeps paths pretty short between fridge, prep sink, and cooktop while leaving me plenty of room on both sides of the cooktop and a huge island to spread out my ingredients while prepping. I also have a drawer for trash directly below the prep area, whereas the cabinets in and around the cooktop are all pots and various cooking sundries (pots and pans, prep bowls, oils, vinegars, flour, salt, sugar, etc).



Beautiful and love the logic and flow


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## WildBoar (Feb 12, 2022)

Sb1994 said:


> Great advice and thx
> 
> first 4pics are of kitchens we just LOVE and wanted to emulate to some extent. Next few pic kitchen right now -we will tear out after we move in around March 5 or so. Next pic is of floor to ceiling cabinets “opened”
> 
> never thought to have 2 sinks but love the idea.


We thought about 2 sinks when we redid our kitchen. I'm glad we stuck with three, though. p kitchen flex)

Looking at the photos you posted, I sense more of going for a look then having a really useful kitchen to really work in a lot. More of something to put in a magazine. I do not get a sense from the photos that those are kitchens belong to people who spend a lot of time cooking. But that is fine if aesthetics >>>>>> function. Plus residential kitchens are always a compromise. We had a space that was too wide to make like a galley; we were able to put the prep/ work islands pretty close, but not as close as optimum. And the fridge is pretty far away. To get around that, we just try and pull out everything we need ahead when starting prep (not unlike the restaurant cooks have to do with fridges and freezes being a 5 minute walk down a back hallway). But knowing the 'triangle' wasn't really going to happen we used the space to make it better for people to gather/ hang out. During parties, etc. most people hang out at the islands in the kitchen area rather then in the family room area 10 feet away. We dressed it up with some nice (to me) finishes, so it looks decent overall when there aren't cutting boards, knife blocks, baskets of produce, unread mail, used glasses, etc. on some of the spaces. It *might* have been photo-shoot worth the day the countertops were installed, but we immediately made it 'lived in'.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 12, 2022)

WildBoar said:


> We thought about 2 sinks when we redid our kitchen. I'm glad we stuck with three, though. p kitchen flex)
> 
> Looking at the photos you posted, I sense more of going for a look then having a really useful kitchen to really work in a lot. More of something to put in a magazine. I do not get a sense from the photos that those are kitchens belong to people who spend a lot of time cooking. But that is fine if aesthetics >>>>>> function. Plus residential kitchens are always a compromise. We had a space that was too wide to make like a galley; we were able to put the prep/ work islands pretty close, but not as close as optimum. And the fridge is pretty far away. To get around that, we just try and pull out everything we need ahead when starting prep (not unlike the restaurant cooks have to do with fridges and freezes being a 5 minute walk down a back hallway). But knowing the 'triangle' wasn't really going to happen we used the space to make it better for people to gather/ hang out. During parties, etc. most people hang out at the islands in the kitchen area rather then in the family room area 10 feet away. We dressed it up with some nice (to me) finishes, so it looks decent overall when there aren't cutting boards, knife blocks, baskets of produce, unread mail, used glasses, etc. on some of the spaces. It *might* have been photo-shoot worth the day the countertops were installed, but we immediately made it 'lived in'.



Great point and didn’t think of that when looking at those kitchens. But your logic makes sense - those kitchens are more for show. We’re die hard cooks and I’m in early 50s and wife is mid 40s. We’ve been married for almost 20 years and love to cook - hence, love of knives, duck press and all things food related. That said, it’s hard not to go crazy here in vegas after living in San Jose area for a long time. Love the thoughtfulness of the responses and your point of compromise is so true. Gonna see how much a second sink will cost but that’s game changing advice and wife also loves the idea. We go back and forth but we’re thinking to keep this house long term here in vegas. If we sold our houses back near San Jose area, we could afford more here in vegas but we figured that it’s best to keep those places….at least for now. Both wifey and I spend vast majority of time in kitchen so we wanted “perfection” to some degree….but then I remember that perfection is something to be pursued but never attained


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## WildBoar (Feb 12, 2022)

Here is some more info from our build: our islands are 5' x 10'. For the island with the sink, that extra foot of width allows guests to be on one side to still have countertop space without the sink/ faucet encroaching on them. We put the base cabinets there back-to-back, resulting in a very useable one foot counter overhang. So guests can comfortably sit on stools on that side. The sink is a large bar sink (not one of the real small ones -- it's big enough to hold a large colander, etc.). There is enough room on either side of the sink for prep areas.

You layout screams for the main dishwashing sink to be somewhere along that long counter. We have a similar counter run, so we put a dishwashing sink about 3 feet from the endwall. That space is where the grinder and espresso machine live. On the other side of the sink we have a drying rack. And then the space between the rack and range holds a toaster and toaster over (we have the luxury of enough space to leave them out since they are used daily), and there is still a work/ staging space right next to the range. And a couple more feet of counter between the range and wall oven. So some work/ staging space on both sides of the range, and wall cabinets to either side that hold various oils and other things that often need to go directly into a pan or pot. I think you may otherwise find that long counter to be 'dead space' near the far end.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 12, 2022)

WildBoar said:


> Here is some more info from our build: our islands are 5' x 10'. For the island with the sink, that extra foot of width allows guests to be on one side to still have countertop space without the sink/ faucet encroaching on them. We put the base cabinets there back-to-back, resulting in a very useable one foot counter overhang. So guests can comfortably sit on stools on that side. The sink is a large bar sink (not one of the real small ones -- it's big enough to hold a large colander, etc.). There is enough room on either side of the sink for prep areas.
> 
> You layout screams for the main dishwashing sink to be somewhere along that long counter. We have a similar counter run, so we put a dishwashing sink about 3 feet from the endwall. That space is where the grinder and espresso machine live. On the other side of the sink we have a drying rack. And then the space between the rack and range holds a toaster and toaster over (we have the luxury of enough space to leave them out since they are used daily), and there is still a work/ staging space right next to the range. And a couple more feet of counter between the range and wall oven. So some work/ staging space on both sides of the range, and wall cabinets to either side that hold various oils and other things that often need to go directly into a pan or pot. I think you may otherwise find that long counter to be 'dead space' near the far end.



Thx and great idea. If I move the main sink to left of window, would make sense and then could use island area for smaller sink. Have an expobar Athena espresso maker which I wanna put somewhere in kitchen. Love the island and mine is exact same size. Was thinking kohler prolific 44 inch sink for main with hansgrohe aquno faucet. Now, will have fun figuring out island sink. Perhaps even put the Gaggenau steamer next to it?? Gonna have me some fun thinking through.

Thank you


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## MarcelNL (Feb 13, 2022)

Just a thought; I once had a stretch of countertop of approx 8meters with a stove in the middle, and found it is simply too much of walk to be practical...much of it was never used but clutter found it.


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## Michi (Feb 13, 2022)

We built our house twenty years ago. When I designed the kitchen, I made a large-scale (1:20) plan of the area. I cut out little cardboard rectangles for the various appliances and the like. Then I cooked some meals on the plan, roughly tracking what I would normally do and how many times I would have to walk where.

That turned out really useful. Not only to figure out where I should put hot/cold/wet, but also what kinds of things need to be in which kind of cupboard or drawer and where. Basically, it's an exercise in minimising movement, so the right kind of tool is at hand at the right time, without having to endlessly walk or turn around.

Personally, I am not a fan of island kitchens. I've cooked in a few of them and, mostly, found them annoying.

If the island is truly an island (that is, surrounded by benches on three sides), it becomes an obstacle. Every time I need something that's in a cupboard on the other side of the island, I have to walk around the bloody thing.
If the island has benches on only one or two sides, it sort of begs the question of why it is an island, rather than a bench that is joined to the island, so there is no island, but just a U-shaped bench, with the stove and sink inset where they need to be.
Of all the kitchens I have cooked in, U-shaped ones work the best, I think. It's the shape that maximises storage space and minimises walking distance.

At any rate, I recommend spending some time to think about not just where you want your fridge, sink, and stove top, but also about what kinds of storage you need where. In many cases, wide and deep drawers are a much better option for storing pots and pans than cupboards are. They make it easy to get at everything without having to grope around for something that is at the back of a cupboard (and having to moving something that is in front out of the way first).

Don't forget to think about the clean-up. It's good to be clear about what needs to go where and why at the end of a meal. Is it easy to get dishes from the table to the dishwasher, possibly with an intermediate trip to the sink for pre-cleaning? If not, see if you can find a more ergonomic arrangement.

Other things that I found truly useful are rotating insets for corner cupboards. They make it possible to get at a whole bunch of things easily. (Having shelves in a corner cupboard is bloody useless because the diagonal distance from the front into the corner at the back is too large.)

One more thing: pull-out pantries are fantastic for storing jars, sauce bottles, and a host of other things. (These are fairly narrow full-height or half-height cupboards that pull out perpendicular to the wall, with shelving that is completely exposed when pulled out.) These make it way easier to get at things in a deep (60-70 cm) cupboard.


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## coxhaus (Feb 13, 2022)

Michi said:


> Don't forget to think about the clean-up. It's good to be clear about what needs to go where and why at the end of a meal. Is it easy to get dishes from the table to the dishwasher, possibly with an intermediate trip to the sink for pre-cleaning? If not, see if you can find a more ergonomic arrangement.



Our dishwasher and sink are close together and I don't think I would want it any other way.

I clean dishes as I put them in the opened dishwasher without walking. Any other solution would be a pain.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 13, 2022)

MarcelNL said:


> Just a thought; I once had a stretch of countertop of approx 8meters with a stove in the middle, and found it is simply too much of walk to be practical...much of it was never used but clutter found it.



Lol. This is exactly one thing I’m worried about. Our daughters are 9 and love a healthy mess. Letters, glue, homework, books, etc. we brought this up to cabinet makers but they still haven’t responded. Waiting to see what they suggest next week.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 13, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> Our dishwasher and sink are close together and I don't think I would want it any other way.
> 
> I clean dishes as I put them in the opened dishwasher without walking. Any other solution would be a pain.



I still wash dishes by hand. It’s embarrassing but it is what it is. Think it’s remnant from working as dishwasher at Woolworth in the 80s.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 13, 2022)

Michi said:


> We built our house twenty years ago. When I designed the kitchen, I made a large-scale (1:20) plan of the area. I cut out little cardboard rectangles for the various appliances and the like. Then I cooked some meals on the plan, roughly tracking what I would normally do and how many times I would have to walk where.
> 
> That turned out really useful. Not only to figure out where I should put hot/cold/wet, but also what kinds of things need to be in which kind of cupboard or drawer and where. Basically, it's an exercise in minimising movement, so the right kind of tool is at hand at the right time, without having to endlessly walk or turn around.
> 
> ...



Solid advice - thx for this. Wanted u shape but this house couldn’t accommodate. Also, wife and I made a list of most popular dishes and needed materials. Eg, Italian meal needs w pots/pans, x ingredients from frig and cupboards, y heating and ventilation and z plates upon which to serve. We cataloged our meals over past 3 weeks or so then wrote down our habits. Needless to say, very interesting findings like we don’t use as much garlic as we thought and we waste lots of canned goods. It was pain in the ass, but this gave us data points from which to build the use case and needed storage. And you’re right - deep drawers and corner storage is key - we got “magic corner” tools to help us. Quite frankly, we still haven’t looked at clean up yet. Hoping to analyze this next week. I’m getting old and back starts hurting when carrying cleaned plates to storage area.

Thank you and sound perspective for sure.


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## sansho (Feb 13, 2022)

dishwashers are awesome. i got a commercial miele that has all sub-30minute cycle programs.

another fun idea for you. it would be trivial to add a gas stubout to a cabinet, perhaps a lower one adjacent to your hestan range and rage hood. the placement inside the cabinet depends on how you intend to use the cabinet, but obviously position it so that it interferes as little as possible with the cabinet's main function. close to an edge or corner (but with enough clearance to actually work!), or perhaps even positioned horizontally coming out of the back wall instead of from below.

to this stubout you can put a valve and then a quick connect. the valve is redundant because the quick connect doesn't flow gas with nothing inserted, but still nice to have.

then you can hook a hose to the quick connect and plug the other end into a wok or portable pizza oven (gas ooni?). you can set this appliance on top of your range and turn on the blower to capture combustion products and excess heat. this opens up the door for fun but rarely-used gas appliances that can be stashed away when not in use.



https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CLJFSIG



you can use something like that. i use the same thing for my outdoor grill because propane tanks are stupid and annoying.
if you have a gas grill, you can do the same thing. and use the same quick connect as you used indoors so you can simply plug and play. unplug the grill and use your pizza oven or wok ourdoors when it's nice out.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 13, 2022)

sansho said:


> dishwashers are awesome. i got a commercial miele that has all sub-30minute cycle programs.
> 
> another fun idea for you. it would be trivial to add a gas stubout to a cabinet, perhaps a lower one adjacent to your hestan range and rage hood. the placement inside the cabinet depends on how you intend to use the cabinet, but obviously position it so that it interferes as little as possible with the cabinet's main function. close to an edge or corner (but with enough clearance to actually work!), or perhaps even positioned horizontally coming out of the back wall instead of from below.
> 
> ...



Damn - that’s cool and hardcore stuff - awesome. Never thought about this. Would love a high power wok burner. Folks in neighborhood doing a “wet” kitchen where in the backyard, they put an industrial grade wok burner and deep fry whole fish or wok cook stuff that stinks (in a good way). Wifey and I love Thai and Vietnamese food but man, using fish sauce with high heat is tough - so we thought about wet kitchen in the back, but just haven’t done anything. YET. 

also, don’t have a decent grill, just a 15 year old Weber which is still in storage until house built. Thx for this idea, never thought of it!!!!


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## sansho (Feb 13, 2022)

pic of outdoor setup at summer home








can unplug grill and plug in anything else you want. do the same thing inside near your range hood


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## Sb1994 (Feb 13, 2022)

sansho said:


> pic of outdoor setup at summer home



Spectacular. Just jaw dropping!!!!


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## sansho (Feb 13, 2022)

Sb1994 said:


> also, don’t have a decent grill, just a 15 year old Weber which is still in storage until house built. Thx for this idea, never thought of it!!!!



check out my weber in the pic above. that thing's like older than i am. that's one of their first ever gas grills.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 13, 2022)

sansho said:


> check out my weber in the pic above. that thing's like older than i am. that's one of their first ever gas grills.



For sure that’s legit. Love Weber and always wanted to buy a new grill. Have looked at grills but again, never pulled the trigger.
Nice setup - opened my eyes up to something new.


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## WildBoar (Feb 13, 2022)

The old Caddy and the gas hook-up are both killer


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## coxhaus (Feb 13, 2022)

Sb1994 said:


> I still wash dishes by hand. It’s embarrassing but it is what it is. Think it’s remnant from working as dishwasher at Woolworth in the 80s.


If you are planning a new kitchen why not plan for a dishwasher? They are cheap compared to other appliances.


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## thebradleycrew (Feb 13, 2022)

I don't think anyone commented much on the fan/vent, so I wanted to give my opinion. I had a downdraft vent/fan behind my Dacor range and it absolutely made for terrible ventilation, exhaust work, and even impacted heating efficiency. It was so bad that grease would travel into strange places around the living/dining room in our open floorplan. I'd highly recommend you avoid them for serious cooking, particularly if you are going to be searing, frying, etc. They just don't work well. And importantly, in my experience, they pull the flame back, towards the fan, instead of vertically, so I found when comparing that water boiling was delayed by as much as 50% depending on which burner I used (front/back/sides). I probably wouldn't get a range (or especially a fryer) without an overhead vent hood of some type if at all avoidable on your end, which sounds like it is. Just something to think about!


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## swarfrat (Feb 13, 2022)

Sorry, but the steamer really strikes me as being like one of the many "additional" knives that are included in a big set, something they throw in to make you feel better about getting more stuff.

Is the reason you're getting such a deal on because nobody wants them and they can't move them any other way? Is it even a current product? I didn't see it on Gaggenau's website. (Maybe it's hiding, their site is a pain to navigate.)

I would really think through the whole process of living with it day-to-day. How much cleaning/descaling/maintenance is needed? How often? How long does it take? Is it really less time/energy/work to use it verses a pot and basket?

If it's installed and you find you aren't crazy about it you can't remove it and have that missing countertop granite (marble, quartz, Corian, whatever...) magically reappear.


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## Jovidah (Feb 13, 2022)

This is probably gonna be painstakingly long but I saw a lot of good and interesting points I wanted to add a few cents to (or simply agree with in more words).


McMan said:


> I agree--a bar sink on the island and a work sink on the same wall as the stove. Plus, with that layout it'd be easy to plumb a wall faucet behind the stove if you wanted one.
> 
> I might suggest rethinking the entire layout though... My read of these plans is a layout that lacks flow and work paths with an island placement that's a barrier not a benefit.
> 
> ...


I agree that 'workflow' should be the starting point of a design setup. Its often forgotten or neglected in design. And also too often 'cookie-cutter' standard recommendations like 'kitchen triangle' are followed, that aren't necessarily applicable to how everyone cooks. Personally for example I tend to do very little cooking in water, so I frankly don't care much how accessible my sink is in relation to my stove... I don't even care much about the fridge to be honest, since I tend to grab everything at once before cooking. I care far more about where I have my prime prep-space and cutting space compared to the stove. But ask 10 different people waht they use the most in a kitchen and you'll get 10 different answers... whats most important is that the setup conforms to how you cook to make that the most efficient as possible - with the least unnecessary movement.
Personally I hate 180 degree turns though at least for cutting / prepping. Hence why I really prefer a generous amount of cutting / prep space next to the stove. It's far easier to transfer stuff just a meter to the left without dropping anything than to do that during a 180 turn. Your mileage may vary if you're less clumsy but it's worthy of consideration. 

I agree that I'd probably move the stove a bit to the left. The small part to the right of it right now looks a bit... like a dark forgotten corner that's too small to be useful, doesn't get good lightning, and its a bit... iduno.. weird. Like a 1 meter gap without a cupboard. I think it would look better if you at least filled up that gap with open-shelving, and-or just moved the stove a meter or so to the left, and then that whole space to the right of the stove becomes far more useful.

Also, lightning. Could be because of the rendering but that really looks like a 'dark' corner. My major complaint in my own kitchen is that in some places the lightnign isn't that good, or for example I try to rely on ceiling light but in some positions my own body ends up blocking it. Lightning can really make or break a kitchen, both aesthethically and functionally.

When it comes to that large open wall I can see both sides of it. Filling it all up with cupboards adds functionality but will make the whole place feel more cramped. A compromise solution is to add at least some open shelving for stuff that doesn't look like crap. Plates, glasses, pans, whatever. Open shelving adds storage without making the room feel smaller.
Unless your ventilation is really superduper awesome though it's preferable if anything on open shelving is stuff you use at least on a regular basis. Personally I really like having all my pans on open shelving because it's really convenient when cooking, but others may consider this a complete nightmare because it looks more cluttered. 
As a compromise to a compromise you could also do it on part of the wall, like the part to the right of the stove.

McMan also makes another very good point about this: only having low-height storage means you're constantly bending over all the time. As a tall person I can sympathise with this; all my most regularly used items are all stored above the waist level. Anything below waist height is - to me - subpar unergonomical storage.



Delat said:


> This is how my prep area is configured and it’s actually really convenient. I have a prep sink on the island opposite the stove. And the fridge is to the side facing the island. When I need a bit of water it’s super convenient to literally just turn around and turn back, vs taking a few steps over to the main sink. If I need to do last-minute cutting of something I forgot, then I just put a board next to the cooktop.
> 
> The arrangement keeps paths pretty short between fridge, prep sink, and cooktop while leaving me plenty of room on both sides of the cooktop and a huge island to spread out my ingredients while prepping. I also have a drawer for trash directly below the prep area, whereas the cabinets in and around the cooktop are all pots and various cooking sundries (pots and pans, prep bowls, oils, vinegars, flour, salt, sugar, etc).


Yeah trash is important to consider. _Unless_ you're someone who's a big fan of using garbage bowls while prepping, I think it's as important as anything else in the 'kitchen triangle'. When I'm prepping I go to my garbage more than to my sink. Since I'm poor and live in a rental kitchen for me the easiest solution is to just have a standalone trash can that I can move around, so I literlaly just slide it over next to my prep spot, but there's a million other ways to go about this (and most are far more elegant and prettier than mine). Bottom line is just to keep it in mind when planning. It bothers the hell out of me whenever I'm at my parents place that they don't have this set up efficiently. 



Sb1994 said:


> Great point and didn’t think of that when looking at those kitchens. But your logic makes sense - those kitchens are more for show. We’re die hard cooks and I’m in early 50s and wife is mid 40s. We’ve been married for almost 20 years and love to cook - hence, love of knives, duck press and all things food related. That said, it’s hard not to go crazy here in vegas after living in San Jose area for a long time. Love the thoughtfulness of the responses and your point of compromise is so true. Gonna see how much a second sink will cost but that’s game changing advice and wife also loves the idea. We go back and forth but we’re thinking to keep this house long term here in vegas. If we sold our houses back near San Jose area, we could afford more here in vegas but we figured that it’s best to keep those places….at least for now. Both wifey and I spend vast majority of time in kitchen so we wanted “perfection” to some degree….but then I remember that perfection is something to be pursued but never attained


Those kitchen all tend to share a similar '0 clutter' aesthethic. If that's what you want some things to consider:
-Figure out a solution for any appliances you have. Consider making dedicated 'appliance garage' cupboards that you can close off with a door or something. 
-As mentioned by others such photos are often made in kitchens that see little actual usage, and / or _after _someone cleaned up all the clutter for an hour. 
-A lot of this is about discipline to actually put everything away in cupboards all the time so it's not cluttering up the islands / counters. A large factor in this is to make sure you have enough storage space and it's convenient enough that you'll actually bother to put things away.


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## Jovidah (Feb 13, 2022)

WildBoar said:


> Here is some more info from our build: our islands are 5' x 10'. For the island with the sink, that extra foot of width allows guests to be on one side to still have countertop space without the sink/ faucet encroaching on them. We put the base cabinets there back-to-back, resulting in a very useable one foot counter overhang. So guests can comfortably sit on stools on that side. The sink is a large bar sink (not one of the real small ones -- it's big enough to hold a large colander, etc.). There is enough room on either side of the sink for prep areas.
> 
> You layout screams for the main dishwashing sink to be somewhere along that long counter. We have a similar counter run, so we put a dishwashing sink about 3 feet from the endwall. That space is where the grinder and espresso machine live. On the other side of the sink we have a drying rack. And then the space between the rack and range holds a toaster and toaster over (we have the luxury of enough space to leave them out since they are used daily), and there is still a work/ staging space right next to the range. And a couple more feet of counter between the range and wall oven. So some work/ staging space on both sides of the range, and wall cabinets to either side that hold various oils and other things that often need to go directly into a pan or pot. I think you may otherwise find that long counter to be 'dead space' near the far end.


I second the '1 foot overhang makes a good enough overhang to work as a good bar with a stool'. Mine is about that and works well. One thing to keep in mind is that any overhang makes any cupboards below it less accessible. Personally I only have overhang on 1 end of the island, where there's no doors. You could have it on both ends, or turn things around a bit depending on where you want your cupboards and where you want your bar/overhang, but ideally they aren't in the same place or you'll hate your life anytime you try to get anything out of your cupboard.
With that in mind I'm a fan of bar / overhang, not just for 'parties' but I notice my gf also uses it a lot because for whatever reason she often likes to prep while sitting down, which isn't convenient at a normal kitchen counter with cabinets below it.

I'd also lean to dishwashing / dirty sink being on the left end of that long counter; nice way to split it all up and have a dirty corner there seperate from all the prep stuff.
Some sort of storage close to the stove is certainly something to keep in mind, because otherwise you're just going to end up with all your most used stuff like salt, pepper, oil, etc sitting right on the counter next to it. 



Michi said:


> We built our house twenty years ago. When I designed the kitchen, I made a large-scale (1:20) plan of the area. I cut out little cardboard rectangles for the various appliances and the like. Then I cooked some meals on the plan, roughly tracking what I would normally do and how many times I would have to walk where.
> 
> That turned out really useful. Not only to figure out where I should put hot/cold/wet, but also what kinds of things need to be in which kind of cupboard or drawer and where. Basically, it's an exercise in minimising movement, so the right kind of tool is at hand at the right time, without having to endlessly walk or turn around.
> 
> ...


Yeah looks like at the start I mentioned what you already did; doing a study in your own movements and maximizing efficiency there is of big benefit in the long run. 

I don't entirely agree with the objections on islands. It's true that you always have an easier and more difficult 'side' to the island, but that's just something you keep in mind when deciding what items to put where. And as an advantage islands don't have any of this dead corner space.
Depending on how the rest of your space is being able to walk around it can be really convenient and it simply looks more 'open' and spaceous. In my own room I really like it being an island, because it avoids me having to walk around the bloody thing all the time since I can go past it on both sides.  

I second the idea to think 'beyond' the kitchen triangle. Unless all you're doing is boiling eggs, then I guess it might make sense.  
Drawers are IMO king and if you can swing it essentially everything should be in a drawer. It really improves your quality of life in a kitchen a lot. 

Good suggestion to also 'plan' efficient routing for cleanup, often all the efficiency maximization goes to prep and what comes after is forgotten. One thing that bothers me in my current setup is that I added my dishwasher recently, but it's essentially in the corner that used to be my 'clean' side of the sink, where I also have my water cooker and tea stuff. It's suboptimal to say the least.

If you want to look into the rotating corner cupbaord things they're usually referred to as 'lazy suzans'.



coxhaus said:


> Our dishwasher and sink are close together and I don't think I would want it any other way.
> 
> I clean dishes as I put them in the opened dishwasher without walking. Any other solution would be a pain.


Agreed, putting dishwasher and sink far apart from eachother is no bueno, you just end up walking all over the place. Hence why I'm a fan of having a 'dirty' corner with sink + dishwasher all in 1 seperate place. 



Sb1994 said:


> I still wash dishes by hand. It’s embarrassing but it is what it is. Think it’s remnant from working as dishwasher at Woolworth in the 80s.


Please, do yourself a favor, and enter the 21st century. It's probably even better for the environment too at this point, and most of all, simply leaves you more time to enjoy life. If you like a clean aesthethic it really cuts down on the clutter too.
I would put 'having _any dishwasher at all' _far higher on my personal kitchen-priority list than things like '2nd sink' or 'built-in steamer / fryer'.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 13, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> I second the '1 foot overhang makes a good enough overhang to work as a good bar with a stool'. Mine is about that and works well. One thing to keep in mind is that any overhang makes any cupboards below it less accessible. Personally I only have overhang on 1 end of the island, where there's no doors. You could have it on both ends, or turn things around a bit depending on where you want your cupboards and where you want your bar/overhang, but ideally they aren't in the same place or you'll hate your life anytime you try to get anything out of your cupboard.
> With that in mind I'm a fan of bar / overhang, not just for 'parties' but I notice my gf also uses it a lot because for whatever reason she often likes to prep while sitting down, which isn't convenient at a normal kitchen counter with cabinets below it.
> 
> I'd also lean to dishwashing / dirty sink being on the left end of that long counter; nice way to split it all up and have a dirty corner there seperate from all the prep stuff.
> ...



yep. Looking at kitchen aid or even Hestan. Unsure at this point for dishwasher though


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## Sb1994 (Feb 13, 2022)

swarfrat said:


> Sorry, but the steamer really strikes me as being like one of the many "additional" knives that are included in a big set, something they throw in to make you feel better about getting more stuff.
> 
> Is the reason you're getting such a deal on because nobody wants them and they can't move them any other way? Is it even a current product? I didn't see it on Gaggenau's website. (Maybe it's hiding, their site is a pain to navigate.)
> 
> ...



Good point and you’re right. It’s discontinued and that’s why they are throwing it in if I buy the downdraft.


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## MarcelNL (Feb 13, 2022)

Feed the steamer oven with distilled or reverse osmosis water and you never have to descale. Just do NOT feed it tap water.

Gaggenau does not likely make any of their stuff, they are Bosch-Siemens as well as Neff ...add a software option and a different decal and a new brand is born.

Like buying a merc and thinking they all come from Stuttgart.

Don't get hung up on brand names, do research and choose what you want...a steamer is a great plus in a kitchen IME.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 13, 2022)

thebradleycrew said:


> I don't think anyone commented much on the fan/vent, so I wanted to give my opinion. I had a downdraft vent/fan behind my Dacor range and it absolutely made for terrible ventilation, exhaust work, and even impacted heating efficiency. It was so bad that grease would travel into strange places around the living/dining room in our open floorplan. I'd highly recommend you avoid them for serious cooking, particularly if you are going to be searing, frying, etc. They just don't work well. And importantly, in my experience, they pull the flame back, towards the fan, instead of vertically, so I found when comparing that water boiling was delayed by as much as 50% depending on which burner I used (front/back/sides). I probably wouldn't get a range (or especially a fryer) without an overhead vent hood of some type if at all avoidable on your end, which sounds like it is. Just something to think about!



that’s it. Not gonna bother with the Gaggenau downdraft with all of your guys experience with them. It just looks cool and love the idea of a downdraft. Buying Hestan 48”vent which is made by vent a hood. The range is 36” and I love having the extra space. Cfm and capture are top for this vent. And it moves are up and outside the house altogether


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## Sb1994 (Feb 13, 2022)

MarcelNL said:


> Feed the steamer oven with distilled or reverse osmosis water and you never have to descale. Just do NOT feed it tap water.
> 
> Gaggenau does not likely make any of their stuff, they are Bosch-Siemens as well as Neff ...add a software option and a different decal and a new brand is born.
> 
> ...



Sure you’re right. But always loved the idea of Molteni, Rorgue and Gaggenau. Can’t afford the first two so the gagg seemed within reach. That said, it’s useless if I don’t use. But it does look killer nice


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## MarcelNL (Feb 14, 2022)

they all cook with water...the difference between a Kees van der Westen espresso machine and a Cafelat Robot is nowhere near what you'd expect from a price tag difference of about 16K ;-)


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## pleue (Feb 14, 2022)

Aesthetically it’s off what your kitchen inspiration photos portend but it does align with your past experience, but if you’re a big entertainer and want to get wild, you could put in a commercial high temp under counter and wash sink over by the far end of your kitchen that you’re worried may be a dead zone. You’d want a rack for dish racks in addition to the spray table and machine so it’d take 6’ or so, but you’d have a dedicated dirty area. One may argue it’s overkill for day to day but then you could put a home use machine over by your island sink and therefore have some increased flexibility/decreased distance day to day. 1 minute wash cycles and fully dry from high temp is pretty great when cleaning for large groups and for things like pots and pans that usually are hand wash or take up half the machine. I like Hobart machines in the past but I own a Moyer diesel yet to be installed.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 14, 2022)

pleue said:


> Aesthetically it’s off what your kitchen inspiration photos portend but it does align with your past experience, but if you’re a big entertainer and want to get wild, you could put in a commercial high temp under counter and wash sink over by the far end of your kitchen that you’re worried may be a dead zone. You’d want a rack for dish racks in addition to the spray table and machine so it’d take 6’ or so, but you’d have a dedicated dirty area. One may argue it’s overkill for day to day but then you could put a home use machine over by your island sink and therefore have some increased flexibility/decreased distance day to day. 1 minute wash cycles and fully dry from high temp is pretty great when cleaning for large groups and for things like pots and pans that usually are hand wash or take up half the machine. I like Hobart machines in the past but I own a Moyer diesel yet to be installed.



Yes and agreed. Problem is that I like the kitchens in the pics but realizing it’s just not practical. Don’t want to do “minimal viable product” but this does look nice. Already looking at panel ready dish washer.
Also, May not do second sink since it will cost 4-6k contractor said.
Appreciate you weighing in


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## WildBoar (Feb 14, 2022)

Geeze, get a new Contractor. That is nuts! Is the floor a concrete slab? Is that the cost-driver?


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## Sb1994 (Feb 14, 2022)

WildBoar said:


> Geeze, get a new Contractor. That is nuts! Is the floor a concrete slab? Is that the cost-driver?



Exactly. Concrete slab and they would have to jackhammer.


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## WildBoar (Feb 14, 2022)

It all comes down to the contractor/ subs. When our addition was nearly complete we found that the existing foundation drain line got screwed up right during the construction, and the drain in the basement stairwell could no longer drain. The concrete sub came out and demo's the stair landing, saw cut a trench across one room and into the room with the sump pump, then backfilled with gravel and poured/ finished the concrete after the plumber installed the drain line and set a new drain body. The whole thing was done in 2 days and cost less $1.5k (this was about 10 years ago). Even if that translates to $2.5k today and you have to add in the plumbing supply lines that sound very steep unless the sink and faucet are >$1.5k.

Of course LV union labor could be a factor...


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## Lars (Feb 14, 2022)

MarcelNL said:


> the difference between a Kees van der Westen espresso machine and a Cafelat Robot is nowhere near what you'd expect from a price tag difference of about 16K ;-)


Unless you really want a cappuccino


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## Delat (Feb 14, 2022)

Sb1994 said:


> yep. Looking at kitchen aid or even Hestan. Unsure at this point for dishwasher though



Either Miele or Bosch for the DW; I just got a bosch a couple months ago and love it. 

Be aware of huge backorders for appliances. My local appliance store had a 6 month backlog for Bosch. I ended up grabbing the last one (in their higher end line) from Home Depot in a 50 mile radius.


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## MarcelNL (Feb 14, 2022)

Lars said:


> Unless you really want a cappuccino



let me be more specific for Lars, the difference between a Kees van der Westen and a Cafelat Robot plus Bellman steamer is nowhere near what you expect from a price tag difference of 15.9K.  


Holy smoke , taking a diamond blade to a concrete slab should not be THAT expensive, unless your kitchen is located in a former nuclear shelter or similar ;-)


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## Jovidah (Feb 14, 2022)

I think they're prone to the same general chip shortage that's plagueing many markets... should - hopefully - start resolving itself towards the end of the year as more fab capacity comes online. 
Saw a similar kind of pattern here with appliances but it's not going to last forever.


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## Lars (Feb 14, 2022)

MarcelNL said:


> let me be more specific for Lars, the difference between a Kees van der Westen and a Cafelat Robot plus Bellman steamer is nowhere near what you expect from a price tag difference of 15.9K.


I'm sorry, Marcel. I didn't know you had such a preference for bad workflow.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 14, 2022)

Delat said:


> Either Miele or Bosch for the DW; I just got a bosch a couple months ago and love it.
> 
> Be aware of huge backorders for appliances. My local appliance store had a 6 month backlog for Bosch. I ended up grabbing the last one (in their higher end line) from Home Depot in a 50 mile radius.



Thx and absolutely right. Already bought the 36” liebherr monoliths, Hestan range and hood and the Gaggenau combi microwave. Got Liebherr mini wine fridge free. They are set to arrive March 15 or so. House ready March 5 or so. Looking for panel ready dish wash washer now.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 14, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> This is probably gonna be painstakingly long but I saw a lot of good and interesting points I wanted to add a few cents to (or simply agree with in more words).
> 
> I agree that 'workflow' should be the starting point of a design setup. Its often forgotten or neglected in design. And also too often 'cookie-cutter' standard recommendations like 'kitchen triangle' are followed, that aren't necessarily applicable to how everyone cooks. Personally for example I tend to do very little cooking in water, so I frankly don't care much how accessible my sink is in relation to my stove... I don't even care much about the fridge to be honest, since I tend to grab everything at once before cooking. I care far more about where I have my prime prep-space and cutting space compared to the stove. But ask 10 different people waht they use the most in a kitchen and you'll get 10 different answers... whats most important is that the setup conforms to how you cook to make that the most efficient as possible - with the least unnecessary movement.
> Personally I hate 180 degree turns though at least for cutting / prepping. Hence why I really prefer a generous amount of cutting / prep space next to the stove. It's far easier to transfer stuff just a meter to the left without dropping anything than to do that during a 180 turn. Your mileage may vary if you're less clumsy but it's worthy of consideration.
> ...



Thx for this - haven’t even thought about lighting!!! For the trash, the cabinet maker had dual trash within cabinet under the sink. I don’t like that. I just don’t like trash under in cabinets. Gonna get a few large Vipp trash cans. Also, for the sink, was leaning towards the kohler prolific but have since discovered the Frankie chef center and hoping to see that somewhere here in vegas before buying. Back to lighting - I really need to learn more about this and think things through. Great points for storage. I’m only 6’ and wifey around 5’7” so about average but we are older so bending over for storage no fun.

on the ventilation, it’s a Hestan 48 vent with 1350 cfm. Interestingly, no make up air requirements in vegas but have already thought about that. FYI - check out YouTube channel by Yale Appliance. Great place to learn more about appliances and although they are out of Boston, helped me learn


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## Sb1994 (Feb 14, 2022)

MarcelNL said:


> let me be more specific for Lars, the difference between a Kees van der Westen and a Cafelat Robot plus Bellman steamer is nowhere near what you expect from a price tag difference of 15.9K.
> 
> 
> Holy smoke , taking a diamond blade to a concrete slab should not be THAT expensive, unless your kitchen is located in a former nuclear shelter or similar ;-)



Yeah, here in vegas am learning that most folks rip you off big time. So to get decent bonded licensed contractor- ain’t cheap.

my dream espresso maker was always a slayer single group. Have office in seattle and always coveted one. Have had rocket, londinium,
Elekta and expobar Athena. Must say, you gents have good taste


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## WildBoar (Feb 14, 2022)

Sb1994 said:


> Thx for this - haven’t even thought about lighting!!! For the trash, the cabinet maker had dual trash within cabinet under the sink. I don’t like that. I just don’t like trash under in cabinets. Gonna get a few large Vipp trash cans.


We have two of the dual in-cabinet trash can setups. I really disliked the idea of them. Until we started to used them. I really, really like them, and wish I had put one on my prep island.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 14, 2022)

WildBoar said:


> We have two of the dual in-cabinet trash can setups. I really disliked the idea of them. Until we started to used them. I really, really like them, and wish I had put one on my prep island.



We had them in cabinets in the San Jose house, never used over 6 years. Kept potatoes in one and onions in other.

thinking I should try but am in love with larger vipp trash cans





__





Pedal bin 30 L / 8 gal







vipp.com


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## Sb1994 (Feb 14, 2022)

Was at house earlier and saw this gas line. Perhaps I can get a nice grill now












always liked this grill but been year or so since I last looked at and unsure if they have gas compatible model


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## Delat (Feb 14, 2022)

WildBoar said:


> We have two of the dual in-cabinet trash can setups. I really disliked the idea of them. Until we started to used them. I really, really like them, and wish I had put one on my prep island.



Agree, I was pretty dubious until I started using them. We have one at the main sink and one at the prep sink; the front bin is trash and the back bin we use for recycling.


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## Justinv (Feb 14, 2022)

A few thoughts:
Lighting is a big issue in kitchens. It looks like you only have can lights. I personally dislike that. Sconces and pendants distribute light broadly. Getting light to bounce off the ceiling and walks is important. I don’t know if your architects can give you a lighting distribution in the room, cad software can do that. 

A dishwasher next to a sink is important. Also its great if all your dish and utensil storage is next to the dishwasher so you don’t need to move to put it away.

I have always had a window behind the main sink. Its nice to look at something while washing dishes. I agree with others here that having it on an island sounds not ideal.

Countertop appliances take up gobs of space. Think about them vs work areas. You need outlets in appropriate places. As others said nooks to store them are an option.

The 5x10 island sounds like a lot of work to clean. You can’t reach across it.

You can never have enough space for a pantry.

Keep storage space for spices, oil, vinegar, etc. near the stove. A pull out drawer for spices is great. Bottles don’t work in a deep cabinet.


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## Jovidah (Feb 14, 2022)

Sb1994 said:


> Thx for this - haven’t even thought about lighting!!! For the trash, the cabinet maker had dual trash within cabinet under the sink. I don’t like that. I just don’t like trash under in cabinets. Gonna get a few large Vipp trash cans. Also, for the sink, was leaning towards the kohler prolific but have since discovered the Frankie chef center and hoping to see that somewhere here in vegas before buying. Back to lighting - I really need to learn more about this and think things through. Great points for storage. I’m only 6’ and wifey around 5’7” so about average but we are older so bending over for storage no fun.
> 
> on the ventilation, it’s a Hestan 48 vent with 1350 cfm. Interestingly, no make up air requirements in vegas but have already thought about that. FYI - check out YouTube channel by Yale Appliance. Great place to learn more about appliances and although they are out of Boston, helped me learn


If you're going with the seperate trash can it's worth considering if you can find a parking spot for it where it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb where you can park it when you're not prepping (fake cabinet for all I care), because that's the main downside of a seperate trash can. Main perk is that you can move it to wherever you're prepping.
It's not the only road to rome though; just make sure whatever road you pick, you put thought into it to make sure it's the right road for you. 
Same goes for all the stuff like lightning and layout.

I don't have any sensible ideas or suggestions about specific brands (I'm European). When it comes to appliances I'm sorta similar to Marcel; in the end while certainly important they don't make or break a kitchen. For usability it's more important that everything is in the right spot (for you).


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## sansho (Feb 15, 2022)

Sb1994 said:


> Was at house earlier and saw this gas line. Perhaps I can get a nice grill now



maybe, maybe not. it depends on the pressure and how it's plumbed. residential gas in most areas is very low pressure, so unfortunately you need a fat pipe and/or a short run. that looks like only 3/8" or 1/2" to me, so depending on how long the run is (or how close it is to a fatter mainfold), it might not be able to flow enough gas to support a higher output appliance.

you should talk to someone knowledgeable (like a plumber) to see how much output (BTU/hr) that stubout can support. important to know this when appliance shopping. or of course you can always run another line if it's not big enough.

i wish we used higher pressure natural gas. i also wish normal circuits were 240V. we're wasting a lot of pipe and copper to move power around.


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## WildBoar (Feb 15, 2022)

Justinv said:


> Lighting is a big issue in kitchens. It looks like you only have can lights. I personally dislike that. Sconces and pendants distribute light broadly. Getting light to bounce off the ceiling and walks is important. I don’t know if your architects can give you a lighting distribution in the room, cad software can do that.


My take on it: Use cans where you want good working light. We have 6 over each island, and each set is on dimmers (all our bulbs are LED now). Along the 'long counter' we have another 6 or so cans, which are on the same circuits as the nearby lights over the islands. It is great lighting for actually working. and it is unobtrusive. The u-shaped area we have has 8 aim-able cans, and frankly I wish we had gone with 10. Undercabinet lights also help a lot when we are working at the counters along the walls, and they are good 'mood' lighting as well (they have low and high light settings). One sink is on an interior wall, so it has a strip light on the underside of the high cabinet above. The other is in the u-shaped area and has a window -- but I wish we had put a can or two above it (the grouping starts another foot back) for nighttime.

Pendents, sconces, etc. are great for background/ 'mood' lighting but is difficult to get good, even lighting for prepping, cooking and clean-up.

It also probably doesn't help that I am an engineer and not an architect. I went for function first, and then did a bit to elevate the aesthetics without hurting function.

All-in-all, the lighting is one of the best things about our build.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 15, 2022)

WildBoar said:


> My take on it: Use cans where you want good working light. We have 6 over each island, and each set is on dimmers (all our bulbs are LED now). Along the 'long counter' we have another 6 or so cans, which are on the same circuits as the nearby lights over the islands. It is great lighting for actually working. and it is unobtrusive. The u-shaped area we have has 8 aim-able cans, and frankly I wish we had gone with 10. Undercabinet lights also help a lot when we are working at the counters along the walls, and they are good 'mood' lighting as well (they have low and high light settings). One sink is on an interior wall, so it has a strip light on the underside of the high cabinet above. The other is in the u-shaped area and has a window -- but I wish we had put a can or two above it (the grouping starts another foot back) for nighttime.
> 
> Pendents, sconces, etc. are great for background/ 'mood' lighting but is difficult to get good, even lighting for prepping, cooking and clean-up.
> 
> ...




Thx for this. Please send pics if not too much trouble. Still learning about lighting.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 15, 2022)

sansho said:


> maybe, maybe not. it depends on the pressure and how it's plumbed. residential gas in most areas is very low pressure, so unfortunately you need a fat pipe and/or a short run. that looks like only 3/8" or 1/2" to me, so depending on how long the run is (or how close it is to a fatter mainfold), it might not be able to flow enough gas to support a higher output appliance.
> 
> you should talk to someone knowledgeable (like a plumber) to see how much output (BTU/hr) that stubout can support. important to know this when appliance shopping. or of course you can always run another line if it's not big enough.
> 
> i wish we used higher pressure natural gas. i also wish normal circuits were 240V. we're wasting a lot of pipe and copper to move power around.




Good call. Will do later in week. Didn’t even know. Thank you.


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## MontezumaBoy (Feb 15, 2022)

In terms of lighting I always prefer direct / tunable lighting ... my kitchen has general 6" cans (dimmable) with separate sets of 4" direct lights on the work areas - cooktop and island / separate / dimmable with lights that are directional. large island lights / off-center - biased to the sitting side ... all the lighting has been modeled to check shadowing / backlighting ... luckily I have a friend who has software for that ... ultimately make sure your task lighting is in front of you by 20"+ ... centered. Have fun ... sounds like you are on the right road ... 

FWIW - main sink is a 34" deep / farmhouse / single and my island is a 32" deep / workstation that I have had cutting boards waterjet to sit on ... TBD but hopefully what I want ...

Deep fryer - not my cup of tea for daily use ... but not my kitchen ... steam - love it / but not for daily use ... too much cleanup ... just my $0.02 ...

Just looking forward to you be happy with your beautifuly kitchen!!! Best of luck ... keep send updates/pics really looking forward to it.

BMB


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## WildBoar (Feb 15, 2022)

Sb1994 said:


> Thx for this. Please send pics if not too much trouble. Still learning about lighting.


DM sent


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## coxhaus (Feb 15, 2022)

Sb1994 said:


> on the ventilation, it’s a Hestan 48 vent with 1350 cfm. Interestingly, no make up air requirements in vegas but have already thought about that. FYI - check out YouTube channel by Yale Appliance. Great place to learn more about appliances and although they are out of Boston, helped me learn


For a vent that big I would think you need an 8 inch pipe which will not fit in a wall. Are going to drill through the side wall and poke out a vent?


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## Sb1994 (Feb 15, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> For a vent that big I would think you need an 8 inch pipe which will not fit in a wall. Are going to drill through the side wall and poke out a vent?




Builder said not a problem as did siematic cabinet makers. So haven’t worried about it. But great point. I will double check. Could be huge potential problem. Thank you


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## coxhaus (Feb 15, 2022)

I would think with a 6-inch pipe that might fit in a wall you flow would be down around 600 to 700 cfm.


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## Delat (Feb 15, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> For a vent that big I would think you need an 8 inch pipe which will not fit in a wall. Are going to drill through the side wall and poke out a vent?



Rectangular duct? Or is there a code that exhaust ducting has to be iron pipe?

For that many cfms OP might want to investigate external fans to lower the noise level.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 15, 2022)

Delat said:


> Rectangular duct? Or is there a code that exhaust ducting has to be iron pipe?
> 
> For that many cfms OP might want to investigate external fans to lower the noise level.



Unsure but can check. We only have so much leeway since builder does everything. Our options were more around adding bathrooms and getting nice flooring or cabinetry. Anything I want them to do if not on their list is “custom” and they politely tell me that it can’t be done.


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## Dan- (Feb 15, 2022)

Kitchen exhaust just has to be rigid duct (no flex). There's no requirement for iron. Rectangular duct that fits in 2x4 walls doesn't carry enough air for that hood. Depending on what's on the other side, and how the hood is ducted, it may be just fine, especially if it goes up through cabinetry instead of out the back into a wall, which might require a soffit. If the stove is on an exterior wall, then it's also no problem, but you may want a muffler?

For dishwashers we recently (in the past year) upgraded from a midrange Made in USA Bosch to the Miele with lights. It was worth it. BTW with Bosch you really need their top of the line stuff. It makes a difference. We had a Made in Germany Bosch dishwasher in my last house, and it was far superior to the local ones. Also cost more.

Something to consider: a 5x10 island usually means 2-3 sheets of stone, if you're going natural. Besides the cost, it can look funny where they join the stone.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 15, 2022)

Dan- said:


> Kitchen exhaust just has to be rigid duct (no flex). There's no requirement for iron. Rectangular duct that fits in 2x4 walls doesn't carry enough air for that hood. Depending on what's on the other side, and how the hood is ducted, it may be just fine, especially if it goes up through cabinetry instead of out the back into a wall, which might require a soffit. If the stove is on an exterior wall, then it's also no problem, but you may want a muffler?
> 
> For dishwashers we recently (in the past year) upgraded from a midrange Made in USA Bosch to the Miele with lights. It was worth it. BTW with Bosch you really need their top of the line stuff. It makes a difference. We had a Made in Germany Bosch dishwasher in my last house, and it was far superior to the local ones. Also cost more.
> 
> Something to consider: a 5x10 island usually means 2-3 sheets of stone, if you're going natural. Besides the cost, it can look funny where they join the stone.



Thx for advice on dishwashers - simply need to learn about them. For the vent, We’re getting custom paneled but the insert is a Hestan unit - KVL48. Here’s a couple pics from November of kitchen and duct location and runs and layout fyi. 

Also on the stone, most likely getting porcelain and unsure if I can do 1 slab vs 2.


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## WildBoar (Feb 15, 2022)

Ah, good -- straight through the wall. If that is 6 inch diameter it probably needs to bump up to 8 or 9 inches. (it looks like the studs are 12" o.c., but I can't tell for sure).


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## coxhaus (Feb 17, 2022)

I looked up the Hestan unit - KVL48 and it states it uses 10-inch duct diameter for 900 cfm. The pipe in the picture looks a little small. The weight is 40 pounds. It says it is USA made.
KVL48 by Hestan - Range Hood Insert - Goedekers

It is the same price as my Viking 36-inch vent a few years ago. Viking is more commercial kitchen looking which may not be the look you are going for. I think the Viking vent motor is around 40 pounds which is separate from the vent. The vent is very heavy. The Viking fan motor for the vent hood is 8 amps. I had to add an extra circuit to run the vent hood. Maybe Heston uses newer technology as their fan pulls 4.4 amps.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 17, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> I looked up the Hestan unit - KVL48 and it states it uses 10-inch duct diameter for 900 cfm. The pipe in the picture looks a little small. The weight is 40 pounds. It says it is USA made.
> KVL48 by Hestan - Range Hood Insert - Goedekers
> 
> It is the same price as my Viking 36-inch vent a few years ago. Viking is more commercial kitchen looking which may not be the look you are going for. I think the Viking vent motor is around 40 pounds which is separate from the vent. The vent is very heavy. The Viking fan motor for the vent hood is 8 amps. I had to add an extra circuit to run the vent hood. Maybe Heston uses newer technology as their fan pulls 4.4 amps.



Thank you for this!!!! The cabinet makers will tear down existing kitchen and start from scratch. Sadly, we have to wait for builder to complete the build and give me keys to house before Siematic can come in. Appliances already bought and they will provide plan on everything from ducting, backsplash, etc. Have to confirm flooring and lighting with them as well but worried that will add more cost we can’t afford. Also, Hestan sources the vents from VAH. Vent a Hood I believe. Love the Viking Tuscany series but have wanted Hestan for a few years now


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## coxhaus (Feb 17, 2022)

Vent a Hood is made up around Dallas Texas close to me. Maybe a 6-hour drive.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 17, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> Vent a Hood is made up around Dallas Texas close to me. Maybe a 6-hour drive.




Lol yeah. Truly great company. Also, think Turbochef near you too. Another awesome company.


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## MarcelNL (Feb 17, 2022)

usually, at least in my parts, is going through the kitchen vendor twice as expensive as getting someone else to do stuff not directly linked to the actual kitchen. Not sure how that is in Vegas but ask around, our kitchen vendor warned us flat out.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 17, 2022)

MarcelNL said:


> usually, at least in my parts, is going through the kitchen vendor twice as expensive as getting someone else to do stuff not directly linked to the actual kitchen. Not sure how that is in Vegas but ask around, our kitchen vendor warned us flat out.



You’re totally right but have heard stories of folks getting burned trusting others out here. Since we’re new, finding out many biz owners say they are bonded and licensed but aren’t. Neighbor had a landscape company whose gardeners sued house owner for slip and fall. 

With all the folks moving to vegas, lots of people looking to take advantage. Still, I have budget issues so gotta find a balance. And siematic is pretty pricey. Seems like I’m the bug in the saying “sometimes you’re the windshield and sometimes you’re the bug”


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## Bill13 (Feb 21, 2022)

Sb1994 said:


> Thx for this. Please send pics if not too much trouble. Still learning about lighting.



Right now two of the best companies I am aware of for recessed lighting are Tech Lighting and WAC Lighting. One of the kitchens you liked had multiples in it, Tech has great offerings (they are better than WAC's): Multiples Downlights | Why ELEMENT | ELEMENT Lighting (element-lighting.com) 
Tech's new line of 3 and 4 inch recessed is very nice too, with the option for Lutron 1% drivers which is a very nice upgrade: Next Generation 3" LED Platform | Why ELEMENT | ELEMENT Lighting (element-lighting.com) They have choices galore:

WAC is usually a bit less than Tech, except for their Volta line, which when it came out 5 years ago was the best available, esp. when high Lumen output was needed. They are releasing next month the FQ line WAC Lighting which I saw last week, and it was almost as nice as the Volta and a lot less. The Volta was around 350 ea. I think the FQ will be a bit over 130. 

Aperture size should be 2 to 4 inches, I prefer 3 or 4 because they are easier to work on post install and for 8 ft ceiling the beam spread works out better.

Pick a fixture where the LED light is as high up as possible, it reduces glare. Stay away from a white interior baffle, they look great great when off but have the worst reflectivity. I have this discussion with almost every client that does not have a lighting rep involved. Go to the most expensive hotel around you, they will have the light source way up above the ceiling line and they will have an Alzak finish. In a kitchen I recommend the haze finish, because it's not polished but rather satin like it hides dust better. I don't like warm dim, why continue creating a flaw from incandescent? Make sure the CRI is at least 90, the R is over 85 (this one can be harder to find out), the kelvin should be 3,000.


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## Sb1994 (Feb 21, 2022)

Bill13 said:


> Right now two of the best companies I am aware of for recessed lighting are Tech Lighting and WAC Lighting. One of the kitchens you liked had multiples in it, Tech has great offerings (they are better than WAC's): Multiples Downlights | Why ELEMENT | ELEMENT Lighting (element-lighting.com)
> Tech's new line of 3 and 4 inch recessed is very nice too, with the option for Lutron 1% drivers which is a very nice upgrade: Next Generation 3" LED Platform | Why ELEMENT | ELEMENT Lighting (element-lighting.com) They have choices galore:
> 
> WAC is usually a bit less than Tech, except for their Volta line, which when it came out 5 years ago was the best available, esp. when high Lumen output was needed. They are releasing next month the FQ line WAC Lighting which I saw last week, and it was almost as nice as the Volta and a lot less. The Volta was around 350 ea. I think the FQ will be a bit over 130.
> ...




OMG - thank you!!!! I’ve always coveted these lights and always thought they were only for builders. 

THANK YOU


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