# Thinking of learning forging. Any tips?



## mlau (Aug 19, 2015)

A new patient told me about a blade forging class in Alameda (Pilgrim Soul Forge).
I'm seriously thinking of taking the class (after I pay off some more loans).

While I've read a lot of stuff on this forum (special thanks to Devin Thomas regarding S-grinds), I still feel lacking. Short of buying some more knives, what would you recommend?
I don't want to have to buy a Marko, Shigefusa, DT, Catchside, etc when I'm just aiming to make some knives for some friends (and their wives).

Would some of you guys mind giving me tips on blade geometry/knife design?

Also, what should I avoid forging (stuff to big and thin like a cleaver, or a suji, etc)?

I'd like to make sure that my creation isn't too ugly when I get to take the 3-day course.


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## chefcomesback (Aug 20, 2015)

I don't know anything about pilgrim soul forge but to my knowledge even most of the very experienced blade smiths who do hunters bowies etc don't have too much knowledge about the knives you intend to make . It will give you an introduction but if you want to forge a gyuto , suji etc find a maker who makes them regularly ( and properly) and hold the hammer like a hammer


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## mlau (Aug 21, 2015)

That sounds like some great advice.

I may just have to continue looking. 

Alternatively, I may take it to learn safety, and build my own little forge...and make stuff for the heck of it.

Any leads?


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## buttermilk (Aug 21, 2015)

Have you already attempted blades through stock removal? Forging is great, but it's a significant investment on top of what you'd need to make stock removal blades. Not to mention the heightened risk of irritating your neighbors, etc. If you haven't started with stock removal, I'd suggest starting there. Find a decent grinder, play and practice, and send your profiled blades out to be heat treated before your full grind. 

If you've already made stock removal blades, and want to move forward into forging, it might be worth looking outside of the Bay Area for classes oriented towards kitchen knives. There are a few makers nationally that offer classes.


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## JMJones (Aug 21, 2015)

Where are you located?


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## mlau (Aug 24, 2015)

I'm in Alameda.

Thanks for the tips on starting with stock removal.
I may just have to do that, and to get some good files.

Do you have some makers that you'd recommend aside from Murray Carter?

I checked out the blacksmith's blades this Saturday at his open house.
He looks like a competent smith, but definitely misses some nuances on the geometry of a good kitchen knife.


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## MowgFace (Aug 24, 2015)

You should check out "The Crucible" in Oakland

http://thecrucible.org/classes/departments/blacksmithing/

Mowgs


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## chinacats (Aug 24, 2015)

mlau said:


> I'm in Alameda.
> 
> Thanks for the tips on starting with stock removal.
> I may just have to do that, and to get some good files.
> ...



Curious if I misread that? Are you saying that MC misses some of the nuances of a good kitchen knife? If so, I would beg to differ...most find his geometry pretty damn good.:scratchhead:


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 24, 2015)

I'm a big fan of my Carter knives, my only quibble is that my 160mm funayuki being so tall (45mm) and short (160mm) doesnt have as much of a flat profile as I would like. I kinda want to take off around 10mm or so near the heel and turn it into a tall petty at some point.

The Carter knives are pretty thin and TBE, so wouldnt be well suited for those who like only workhorses. Keep in mind that MC forges in the traditional Japanese style and that is can be part of the appeal. The choils on my HG series are not perfectly polished, but a lot of J-knives dont really seem to have that. At first I always wondered about this, but after using it makes sense because the knife doesnt slip/slide around as easily on your finger compared to one that is mirror polished. I believe the IP series has this feature but am not 100% sure as I dont own a knife from this series.


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## mlau (Aug 26, 2015)

Not MC, the guy at pilgrim soul forge.


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## mlau (Aug 26, 2015)

Murray Carter is considered pretty darn good by about everyone I know.


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## drysideshooter (Dec 2, 2015)

If you want to get a taste of forging I would suggest something like an Atlas mini forge, a couple basic hammers, a make-shift anvil and starting with something like a railroad spike knife. For a fairly small investment you can get your feet wet and learn about shaping, the colors, etc.


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## Kippington (Jan 6, 2016)

I'm a beginner bladesmith myself and I can agree with a lot of the advice given here.

The comment on stock removal is extremely accurate because you can be terrible at the anvil and make up for it with time at the grinder, but it doesn't work the other way!
The forging part is easy in theory and somewhat in practice as well (I'm talking about shaping a medium sized monosteel blade, forge welding and more advanced things come later). The hardest thing about the hot work is making the work piece look closer and closer to the end product, something I've noticed even the pros handle in their own ways to varying degrees of quality. For example some bladesmiths such as Carter will use shears to remove a good amount of excess metal as they get close to the shape and thickness they want,. Others such as Kato will not use shears or grinders of any kind until after the heat treat... but it can also depend on the kind of blade they are making, etc.

The hot work is also a good introduction to blacksmithing. I gained a huge amount of respect for people that can control the shape of steel in three dimensions, whereas a simple bladesmith only really deals with two of them.

Are you considering buying/building your own forge?


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## mlau (Jan 6, 2016)

I'd thought about it for a while, and sat down to assess my time, commitments, funds.

I'll probably hold off indefinitely, and pay masters like Devin or Marko to make the knives.

Since starting the thread, I've found that I get much, much, much more satisfaction from dentistry and friendships.

I'm afraid-
a. I'd accidentally burn down a house
b. I'd maim myself 
c. I'd get hooked and spend a fortune on grinders, precision ovens, and a power hammer.

When the time comes, I'll probably try a small atlas forge and rail road rail anvil to get started.


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## mlau (Jan 6, 2016)

Fwiw,

I think that I'll just focus on dentistry, and building the occasional guitar.

I have a great master mentoring me in both.


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## mlau (Aug 17, 2020)

Man, I reread this thread.

I posted wrong--never got the chance to meet Murray Carter.
Instead, it was a local smith that wanted to look like Conan the Barbarian (shaved head and bear teeth necklace over a leather vest).

That was years ago....will possibly get a grinder and muddle around with stock removal.


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## Seffers93 (Aug 17, 2020)

Well, four years later. Did you ever change your mind and starting forging??

Edit: No joke, didn't even see that last bit of your post! lol. 

I've just ordered all the equipment and supplies to start making knives with stock removal. It's all starting to come in a little at a time! So exiting! It's such a long list!!!


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## gregfisk (Aug 17, 2020)

I built a 2x72 grinder about a year and a half ago just because it looked like a fun project. Once it was built I thought, what the hell, I might as well try and make a knife. Buying sheet knife stock and cutting it into the shape of a knife is pretty easy. Then I built a forge to try my hand at heat treat and I’ve been playing around ever since. I’ve been doing heat treat first and then stock removal second with good results. I recommend making knives to anyone who likes to work with their hands, it’s very rewarding.


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## captaincaed (Aug 17, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> I built a 2x72 grinder about a year and a half ago just because it looked like a fun project. Once it was built I thought, what the hell, I might as well try and make a knife. Buying sheet knife stock and cutting it into the shape of a knife is pretty easy. Then I built a forge to try my hand at heat treat and I’ve been playing around ever since. I’ve been doing heat treat first and then stock removal second with good results. I recommend making knives to anyone who likes to work with their hands, it’s very rewarding.


Have you showed off any work on the forum? I'm curious to see what the PNW locals are up to.


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## gregfisk (Aug 18, 2020)

The knives I’ve made are not really what most of the people here like. I make my handles with epoxy resin and I’ve been using 1/16” steel so they are very light vegetable cutters. Here’s a picture of the last couple of knives I made before I rebuilt my 2x72. I am planning on making some wa handles out of wood and using some thicker steel for something different. These are made from 1095 with HT to about 62-63. I put a 13 degree bevel on the cutting edge.


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## Matus (Aug 18, 2020)

Forging is definitely going to be more fun than grinding, but I would really recommend to first get a basic skills on grinding and understanding blade geometry you want to create before you go for forging.


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## captaincaed (Aug 18, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> The knives I’ve made are not really what most of the people here like. I make my handles with epoxy resin and I’ve been using 1/16” steel so they are very light vegetable cutters. Here’s a picture of the last couple of knives I made before I rebuilt my 2x72. I am planning on making some wa handles out of wood and using some thicker steel for something different. These are made from 1095 with HT to about 62-63. I put a 13 degree bevel on the cutting edge.


I think it’s clean work. Nothing wrong with that!


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## gregfisk (Aug 18, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> I think it’s clean work. Nothing wrong with that!


Thanks, I appreciate that.


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## rocketman (Aug 19, 2020)

A few years ago a friend and I spent a week under Murray Carter taking his knife forging class. I highly recommend studying with him if you really want to learn to make Japanese style knives.... Then come home and equip your forge, after you know what you want.


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## mlau (Aug 21, 2020)

I never did start forging, since I was working on my floundering business more than full time.
It's amazing all the crap that can happen (including having my office flood about 5 times!).

I was going to start with stock removal (the group buyout sounds amazing), and maybe muddle with forging.
My main holdup (aside from cost) is accidentally setting my workshop on fire.
My workshop is dedicated towards guitar building, and has quite a bit of well seasoned wood....urg.

After getting a used Messermeister Olivia off ebay last night, I finally see the point of western chef knives.
It's just that most of them sorta suck (edge holding is mediocre at best, profile too heavy, balance is off) or they can be a bit expensive (Herder 1922).
The Japanese gyutos also tend to turn me off (afraid of fracturing the blade, handle ergos sometimes iffy, expensive for a toy to try out).

I'm slowly hitting the point that my forging gum-surgeon hit a few years ago.
Commercial knives are "meh,"


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## mlau (Aug 21, 2020)

Btw, is there a good resource specifically for kitchen knives via stock removal?

Most of the stock removal stuff I see are for bowie knives and hunting blades.
I feel that the thinness of the blade makes heat treating way harder.


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## Jesse Killion (Aug 21, 2020)

if you want to stock removal your kitchen knives, simply heat treat the knife first. After you harden the blade, any warping that might happen can be corrected during your temper cycles. Ekim knives has a good video on the tube of u's showing some grinding techniques for stock removal kitchen knives that would be a good start.


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## mlau (Aug 21, 2020)

Thanks for the tip! 

Btw, any recommendations for starter steel/suppliers? 
I'd focused most of my attention on learning about forgable steels (like W1, O1, 1095, etc). I have quite a stockpile of vintage files (likely in W-1 steel) for when I'm ready to forge.

ps. The Moderator has a gorgeous damascus gyuto on his blog. It's part of what's inspiring me to try doing this.


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## Jesse Killion (Aug 21, 2020)

I'm not sure what part of the world you are in. I source all of my steel from the new jersey steel baron here in the US. 1084 is a great beginner steel. Easy to forge and heat treat, 1095 as well. I would recommend getting mild steel to learn forging techniques rather than starting out with good knife steel. Most scrap yards will sell you steel from their scrap piles for cheap, or you could contact a machine shop and see if they might sell you some. Damascus is another beast all together, and one I am slowly working towards myself.


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## gregfisk (Aug 22, 2020)

I started out with 1095 and have had great success with heat treat so far. I haven’t been as successful with 15n20. I believe that I overheated it my first two attempts which I didn’t have a problem with on the 1095.


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## billyO (Aug 23, 2020)

There's a guy in Eastern Washington who has a business heat treating blades and he also cuts out blanks for finishing. He has quite a number of profiles programmed into his system, including various kitchen designs, if I understand correctly. His name is Jerrod Todd, and if you search for JT Knives you should find him. He's also starting to get into selling damascus bar stock forged by Salem Straub, also in eastern WA.

I applaud your wisdom in thinking before jumping. Depending on the amount of sawdust in the shop, this can be a concern when forging. It can be done, but you have too make sure you clean up the dust. In the past year, I've had to move from my own shop space into sharing a shop with someone and I've had to do a lot of cleaning up of the shop after more than one episode of having to stop what I'm forging and find the source of the smoke I was smelling when a piece of scale popped off my pieces and landed on a pile of dust, a scrap piece of canvas, scrap paper, etc. 

Also, you are probably right about:


mlau said:


> I'd get hooked ...


My metalworking 'career' started as a traditional blacksmith, until I wanted to try pattern welding 6 or so years ago. Since that time I have forged almost zero bottle openers, hooks, sculptures, gates, functional ironwork, etc. and mostly kitchen knives because I really enjoy making pattern welded steel and had to find something to do with the billets. I don't have much time for other things, so I guess I'm fortunate not to have any other responsibilities other than my 15 y/o husky. I probably wouldn't be able to do this if I had a spouse, and/or kids to take care of, if I were still running my PT clinics, etc.... 
When you are ready too jump, I'll suggest joining the CBA California Blacksmith Association (calsmith.org) and attend any gathering you can. It doesn't take much to become friends with a few and then have access to fully equipped shops, and you can learn a lot in a weekend about hammer control, helpful tools and jigs, etc...


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