# So how should the forum handle re-sellers or "flippers"?



## daveb

Greets,


There's a lot of emotion displayed whenever someone resells 1 or many knives that are "NIB", "Never Used", and now even "Purchased for resale. 

Many object that the "spirit" of the forum is violated if someone makes a profit when reselling. Some further suggest seller is trying to "run a business" selling knives. 

Just as many speak to the free market aspect of such sales and feel that as long as a mutually acceptable price is agreed on between buyer and seller then no harm, no foul.

I personally lean to the second camp with a toe in the first. To me, re-sellers provide an opportunity for people to buy knives that they would not otherwise encounter. And a consensual transaction between buyer and seller is between them and not for others to judge. Personally I remember buying a Cleaver with a Fish handle several years ago for a cheap price ($140). Try as I might I could not like using the knife and resold it for $140. A month later it was on bst again for 200+ and quickly sold. Then it went on again for 300+ and quickly sold. Last time it went up it was about $350. It would not have been comfortable for me to make money on a knife here. But I'm not going to judge others that marked it up to market value.

I'm curious about other's thoughts and how we should go forward. Please (female dog) here to your hearts content. Feel free to comment on how the most recent bst was handled by the forum (but pls leave individual out of it).

Thanks,


Dave


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## ramenlegend

Good thread. I don't think there is anything you can do about it. I think the OG folks will give deals in private, but I wouldn't put a knife at an old price just so a new "camper" can scoop it up (and sell it down the road at the inflated market price). I say keep the "free" market going, there isn't really anything you can do. I have a 210 shig gyuto I bought for 300$ back in the day, and when I finally find a 240 shig to replace it, I'm going to sell it at a decent mark up to recoup the costs of the current market:O


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## panda

Tell them to go to.cktg bst instead


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## HRC_64

The reason for rules like the BST guidelines is often (if not usually) to avoid
things like 'willful negligence' and "accessory" to fraudulent 
or criminal behaviour.

Like tax evasion, money laundering and the rest.

By limiting BST to non-for-profit and informal sales
you are taking reasonable steps to avoid these problems.

By having vendors (professionals, presumed acting legally)
you are taking reasonable precautions to avoid these problems.

By allowing 'hobbyist' for profit sales--especially with large dollar, 
cross-border (ex/im) transactions exceeding $1,000/each

You (general you) are starting to walk into a mine-field.



> The distinction between recklessness and criminal negligence lies in the presence or absence of foresight as to the prohibited consequences. Recklessness is usually described as a 'malfeasance' where the defendant knowingly exposes another to the risk of injury. The fault lies in being willing to run the risk. But criminal negligence is a 'misfeasance or 'nonfeasance' (see omission), where the fault lies in the failure to foresee and so allow otherwise avoidable dangers to manifest. In some cases this failure can rise to the level of willful blindness, where the individual intentionally avoids adverting to the reality of a situation.



Hope this post makes some sense.


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## Wdestate

People should be able to sell any object they want for as much/little as they want. If it's unreasonable it won't sell ( it always sells) . All the tax BS is on the payment services not the forum . PayPal already has stuff in place that will send you a 1099-k if you exceed its threshold , ask me how I know ( thanks Massachusetts )


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## labor of love

I like the forum donation idea for flippers. Let them pay to play.


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## YG420

I believe in the free market, if the buyer is willing to pay then let it be. I dont like flipping or selling for much more, but it is what it is. I also dont like when people are hypocrites and only call out certain individuals and not their buddies when they do the same. There needs to be some consistency with the WTT threads as well, some ppl get called out for not listing a price, and others dont.


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## nevrknow

Great points. I will interject my lowly opinion. The market rules the market. What I mean is, if you can improve upon a product and make it more valuable ( new handle, thinning, etc ) then yes you can charge for that. If you get a deal and someone wants to pay you more, then good for you. May seem shady to some but think about it. How many products do you buy now that others can get for much less? To me that's just business as usual. Just because someone that has a "legitimate" business does the same thing, all of a sudden that makes it acceptable? I think not. I guess because they have a "permit" it's ok for them to do it. 

What I mean is, how can anyone justify someone buying blades from smiths that we all know sell them for way less than distributors do, yet jump on anyone who sells them for more? I mean, who gets to decide the final selling price of anything? I say the market does. If a smith sells me a knife for $20 and dave decides it's worth $200 for him to buy it from me who is to say it's not right? He's happy I'm happy the smith's happy................................................. make sense?

This is just capitalism. Not saying it is right or wrong but this has been happening for thousands of years. NO BUSINESS sells its product at cost. If they do they go under. I classify a business as not only a multi-employer but also mom and pop shops.

Having said all that. This forum also is a great opportunity for people to buy/trade used equipment to others. Most of us do seem to take into consideration what I call the "useage fee". Yall know what I mean and sell accordingly. We will get the occasional flipper as you mention but anyone used to being here will see it and not jump. Plus members will/should call out BS on anything not even close to an acceptable deal so the "newbies" don't get burned.


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## Dave Martell

For me this is clear cut. You're either a vendor or you're not. You're a vendor if you're selling for profit. If you're a vendor then you pay up to sell here like any other vendor. And BST is *NOT *the place for vendor sales.

From The BST Guidelines:


> This forum is for personal sales use only.
> 
> The B/S/T forum is not to be used by knifemakers, hobbyists, or vendors to sell or list items/services that are business related. They shall not offer to rework, refurb, upgrade, and/or offer warranty work to/of any items being sold in the B/S/T forum nor should they comment on or talk up products that they make and/or sell.




And FWIW, I don't even know what exact situation transpired to have this question be asked. I'm simply replying based on the principles that we used when creating and growing this forum.


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## milkbaby

I feel the best approach is to just leave it the way it is.

People who abuse the goodwill of others will become known. If your buddy wants to buy your knife that you posted to b/s/t, then I assume you'd give them the buddy deal in private.

If somebody wants to list something at a huge markup, then either nobody will bite or somebody who really feels it's worth the price will buy. What's the rationale for having a change in policy to interfere with this type of transaction?


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## Dave Martell

On the subject of profiteering flippers...

The price a seller lists their knife for is what ever they feel they want to ask for their knife. A buyer will purchase or they won't. The deal is between those two parties and everyone else should mind their own business.


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## labor of love

Dave,
Dont you think your statements are contradictory? If one profits from a sale they must be a vendor however a sale in BST can be set at whatever the seller would like it to be( even for profit)?

You do make a strong case(whether or not you realize it). KKF BST originally was just a friendly way to exchange used knives at a discount but now its evolved into much more. 

Free market arguements are for eBay. Id like to think that everything this forum is about isnt solely profit based. 

KKF is supplying a for profit marketplace free of charge in our BST section and I think its strange to offer such a service free of charge.


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## aboynamedsuita

I agree with the forum donation idea labor of love mentioned. I know it's already out there as an option, and I suppose making it a "mandatory" donation changes some rules in the business context at kkf and how PayPal will process it perhaps only site supporters should be allowed to sell? I don't know


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## panda

this isnt a place of business for regular users. we should absolutely prevent people from turning a profit from flipping knives, that's not what this community is for.


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## NO ChoP!

I think it is common place today to see certain knives quickly inflate in value, but since I have been around people have made coin reselling Kramers, DT's, Shigs, etc...

It is truly unique in the situation that after many years of knifemaking, a Japanese makers product will suddenly be the new hot thing here in the states. They will get a big spike in sales, which gives them a nice pillow to retire. And the Japanese youth is tech driven and wants nothing to do with grandpa in the tool shed, so all the skill is lost forever. And the price of said knives will sky rocket.


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## HRC_64

Dave Martell said:


> On the subject of profiteering flippers...





labor of love said:


> If one profits from a sale they must be a vendor however a sale in BST can be set at whatever the seller would like it to be( even for profit)?



It's the profits that lets you know people are profiteering :rofl:


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## Panamapeet

I think we should make a clear distinction between people who flip knives, and people who do not. I see people here giving examples like 'I bought this knife in 2014 for 300$ but will sell in 2018 at fair market value'. This is NOT flipping. Flipping is buying a Shig from JNS, and selling it within a very short period. And I am the first to admit that there will be situations where it is not clear cut like this, but lets take this as an example. 

Now for the question of whether to allow this or not. To me, the 'flipping' example is a clear sign of someone acting as a business and/or selling for a profit. In my opinion, this behavior should not be supported by KKF (through BST) as (i) it ruins the opportunity for people to buy a knife at a decent price (I think most of the time this regards knives that are generally available) and (ii) it leads to an unequal treatment of 'normal' vendors on KKF (who do pay a fee for being on here). 

Finally, to everyone who is using the 'free market' argument: that may be true for eBay or some other auction site, but I like to think that KKF is a more close knit community where we can help each other out, instead of trying to make money at every opportunity. I know it may be hard to understand for some, but sometimes a little guidance is not too bad for a market.


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## Dave Martell

labor of love said:


> Dave,
> Dont you think your statements are contradictory? If one profits from a sale they must be a vendor however a sale in BST can be set at whatever the seller would like it to be( even for profit)?
> 
> You do make a strong case(whether or not you realize it). KKF BST originally was just a friendly way to exchange used knives at a discount but now its evolved into much more.
> 
> Free market arguements are for eBay. Id like to think that everything this forum is about isnt solely profit based.
> 
> KKF is supplying a for profit marketplace free of charge in our BST section and I think its strange to offer such a service free of charge.




For me it comes down to intent. If a person is purchasing knives with the intent to sell for a profit then they should be considered to be in business - they are a vendor. If a person owns a knife, with never having intended to make a profit on, lists the knife at a higher price than they paid then they are lucky should a buyer come along willing to pay said price. 

I can see making a person who is intended to make a profit pay for the privilege but I don't see the same standard being held to the typical BST seller who (likely) never intended to make a profit from the get go.

I do, however, see how someone will eventually (maybe they already have?) come along who takes advantage of the BST system and does indeed intend on making a profit. This is the gray area where mods will have to step in after documenting the occurrences. 

BTW, a very similar thing has been going on here since day #1 with regards to vendors/knifemakers sliding in the back door and selling their wares without contributing to the pot as a vendor. Unlike the BST sales, this never makes the general membership upset as it only effects the paying vendors.


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## McMan

Is the concern is bigger?--that some of the norms of the forum are changing? That the forum is splitting into users and abusers?

The long KS thread from a month or two ago brought up a similar point about KS profiteering... This quote resonated with me:


chinacats said:


> This isn't about rules, it's about etiquette...this used to be a gentleman's forum...



Classic norms vs. rules, right?
If you follow a norm, sometimes you get an attaboy. If you break a norm, sometimes people tell you to muck off. 

For example, I thought Labors BST Tad/etc from last night were at really fair prices. (I was tempted by the Tad--still am ). A few people in the thread threw in compliments for keeping prices chill. I dont know the guy, but I appreciate him trying to keep prices at a point where others can try/use/benefit from things. Again, this is just an example. I think many people do this and follow this code of norms. It seems to be the culture, no? 

I see keeping prices fair as a way to keep the community culture active. I also see this as an individual decision that impacts ones reputation and status either positively or negatively. 

Businesses seek to maximize profit. They must. But the market analogy only goes so far when discussing an online forum of individual joiners and (hopefully) learners. I see this as a community about more than just rational actors motivated by self interest and driven by market forces 

I finally joined the forum--after longtime-lurking--because of the norms that others set out and followed. One of these, I think (hope?), was to keep prices fair so people could buy and sell and try and learn and use. 

Caveat: Many things impact value and what is fair: appreciation and depreciation, scarcity and rarity, etc. But I see value as determined also by the culture of the forum and not just simply by the market. I may be wrong, thoughmy post count doesnt let me sell anything and Im still waiting to buy :scratchhead:


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## milkbaby

So is KKF going to compensate any forumite that sells a knife at a huge loss?


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## HRC_64

milkbaby said:


> So is KKF going to compensate any forumite that sells a knife at a huge loss?



you're loss is what, e-bay fees?


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## HRC_64

HRC_64 said:


> you're loss is what, e-bay fees?



or, is this more like "pay me so I don't commit a crime"?


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## labor of love

milkbaby said:


> So is KKF going to compensate any forumite that sells a knife at a huge loss?



No. Make money here, but pay for the privilege. Or make money on eBay and leave this forum alone.


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## Matus

Interesting discussion - it is hard to resist to join it  

I think - the first point that KKF owners/administrators have to have a look at is - do the forum rules (and up to certain extend their enforcement) make sure, than they will not be held legally responsible if the BST get's missued in some way. That should be reasonbaly easy to do even if one may needs to consult a layer to get the content and wording right. Since I do not know the details of the law, I would stop here on this topic.

The second point is purely personal - and is a matter of culture of given individual and concerns both sellers and buyers and what they consider to be OK or not OK. Some will order a couple of knives here and there with the intent of flipping them for some profit, some will not do that. Then there will be users who order a knife, got it, did not quite like it - and then sell it with a profit. And others may not feel comfortable to sell the knife for a profit under such circumstances.

Taking a look at the sale thread that started this discussion - I have to admit that the seller was surprisingly honest when he (I assume) said that he bought the knives to sell them at their market value. He might have decided not to disclose the information, sell one at a time over a longer period of time and nobody would have noticed anything.

We have also seen a quite some flipping of natural stones in recent months here where some were very clearly been bought from know venders and flipped for a profit. Other were bought from 'unreliable' sources and sold at quite reasonable prices after testing (probably still with some profit). Are those two cases the same? Everyone should decide for themselves.

I personally would rather see that sellers do not feel that they need to 'hide' their intentions/reasons how/why they bought&sell knives or stones and fear beeing attacked.


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## Jovidah

A few thoughts that come to (my) mind:

-It seems to me that it is at least at odds with the spirit of the forum. I've always considered this as a sort of 'for consumers, by consumers' platform to help eachother, share knowledge, and generally improve the experience of 'the consumer'. I don't really see how trying to profit off other members fits into this. In that sense I would expect stuff to be traded at original buying price at the most, even if for no other reason than that it's the 'gentlemanly' thing to do.

-I also do not see how profiteering, buying up rare knives (thereby taking them off the market) only to resell them at a profit, is of any benefit to 'the consumer'. If anything, it worsens the problem, thereby driving prices up. By giving people a platform for it, we are basically facilitating a practise that hurts all of us.

-I'm inclined to question the argument that 'this is a chance to acquire rare stuff'. Because the very practise of flipping knives is actually contributing to that rarity. When people sell a knife that's sitting in their closet that helps availability. When people take a knife off the market only to reintroduce it a week later at a higher price point that's not helpful. Especially when it becomes a business model / wider practise.

-Another issue is that the line between members and vendors becomes _very_ blurred. While I always had some reservations about the mixing of (paying) vendors on what is essentially a consumer-platform, the strict rules and guidelines - and the vendors discipline to abide by them - always made it at least a workable solution. But the ability to just flip knives on B/S/T for a profit is seriously muddying the waters. If they are buying and selling knives for a profit, are they not vendors? Are they not supposed to pay the same fees other vendors do? 
Or are they exempt from this.... because... why? Because they are committing to a black market transaction without any service or warranty offered, no sales taxes paid? Am I the only one getting the feeling that this is a slippery slope we simply don't want to be on?

-I do agree that there might have been some inconsistency in 'calling it out'. While that's a fair thing to bring up, it's not a reason not to deal with the issue: it's a reason to deal with it more consistently. It's good that we discuss it here and maybe we can condense some consistent and practical rules out of it. For my part; I don't always pay too much attention to stuff outside my budget, nor do I always have a good idea for the original price of certain knives. Hence there might be some inconsistency. But in general I can say I don't want to see anyone going down this road. Such practises can slowly poison a community...


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## Nemo

Interesting and thoughtful post, Jovidah. I thknk I braodly agree with your analysis. I don't think that flipping increases availability, just makes prices for some sought after knives even higher.


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## JayGee

I've only bought a couple of things off BST and never sold. Nevertheless, I think the free market argument is a fantasy. There are no true free markets - all markets are regulated. The reason for the regulation is to prevent abusers of the system and protect the vulnerable. Regulations also define market parameters. All markets have parameters like goods, users, purposes technologies for transaction etc. Now, it's difficult to think of who might be 'vulnerable' in this case when we're often talking about trading luxury goods (let's face it). So the degree of market intervention reflects the reality that the potential for harm is more limited. However, I see no problem in setting the parameters of the market according to what the central authority (KKF) thinks is best. I.e. community norms - no profiteering etc... These are all difficult concepts to define, and would inevitably lead to more arguments, but that is the nature of regulation and why lawyers exist.


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## Kingkor

I ain't a very active member of the forum on the threads, I never was and I probably will never be. But I had to comment, Everything everyone said here is right and nice and all but the main problems that nobody is talking about are the 2 i'm about to list:

1. This "flipping"/selling for a profit is driving the market up, and this in my opinion is a very bad thing considering the fact that nothing is really changing(demand didn't grow in hundreds of percents and so didn't quality, unlike prices did).
2. The "community" that some of you started talking about in the forums is dying and will be gone forever because of it. I as an individual have no problem with it i'm keeping my friends close to me no matter what will happen here but think of it mainly for newcomers and other forum members.

Other than this there is another real big problem that isn't talked about which is the censorship that is going on in the forums, this is the main thing that made me less and less active in the forums. The general feeling is that if you talk badly about a vendor/maker/other forum member or shed some light/criticize on things(that we as a community or at least i as an individual would like to know), you get banned or you posts get deleted, this is a way bigger problem that should take over the flipping/selling for a profit thread that is just a consequence of the censorship that's happening here. 

I hope this thread isn't deleted and i'd love to hear others opinions on this topic that aren't "legal legal bla bla bla.....".

Hope everyone has an awesome day


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## preizzo

Kingkor said:


> I ain't a very active member of the forum on the threads, I never was and I probably will never be. But I had to comment, Everything everyone said here is right and nice and all but the main problems that nobody is talking about are the 2 i'm about to list:
> 
> 1. This "flipping"/selling for a profit is driving the market up, and this in my opinion is a very bad thing considering the fact that nothing is really changing(demand didn't grow in hundreds of percents and so didn't quality, unlike prices did).
> 2. The "community" that some of you started talking about in the forums is dying and will be gone forever because of it. I as an individual have no problem with it i'm keeping my friends close to me no matter what will happen here but think of it mainly for newcomers and other forum members.
> 
> Other than this there is another real big problem that isn't talked about which is the censorship that is going on in the forums, this is the main thing that made me less and less active in the forums. The general feeling is that if you talk badly about a vendor/maker/other forum member or shed some light/criticize on things(that we as a community or at least i as an individual would like to know), you get banned or you posts get deleted, this is a way bigger problem that should take over the flipping/selling for a profit thread that is just a consequence of the censorship that's happening here.
> 
> I hope this thread isn't deleted and i'd love to hear others opinions on this topic that aren't "legal legal bla bla bla.....".
> 
> Hope everyone has an awesome day


Tk you.


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## FoRdLaz

Kingkor said:


> I ain't a very active member of the forum on the threads, I never was and I probably will never be. But I had to comment, Everything everyone said here is right and nice and all but the main problems that nobody is talking about are the 2 i'm about to list:
> 
> 1. This "flipping"/selling for a profit is driving the market up, and this in my opinion is a very bad thing considering the fact that nothing is really changing(demand didn't grow in hundreds of percents and so didn't quality, unlike prices did).
> 2. The "community" that some of you started talking about in the forums is dying and will be gone forever because of it. I as an individual have no problem with it i'm keeping my friends close to me no matter what will happen here but think of it mainly for newcomers and other forum members.
> 
> Other than this there is another real big problem that isn't talked about which is the censorship that is going on in the forums, this is the main thing that made me less and less active in the forums. The general feeling is that if you talk badly about a vendor/maker/other forum member or shed some light/criticize on things(that we as a community or at least i as an individual would like to know), you get banned or you posts get deleted, this is a way bigger problem that should take over the flipping/selling for a profit thread that is just a consequence of the censorship that's happening here.
> 
> I hope this thread isn't deleted and i'd love to hear others opinions on this topic that aren't "legal legal bla bla bla.....".
> 
> Hope everyone has an awesome day



+1

Very well stated on all counts. I joined the forum not too long ago but Im also beginning to feel the forum is run for financial gain rather than as a service to a bunch of people with common interests. 
Having personally had posts deleted with absolutely no idea why I also think this is a serious issue. 
Thanks Kingor for brining this up


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## tgfencer

Very interesting discussion and one I'm glad is being held in a positive and constructive way. I will second that I like to think of KKF as a gentleman's forum. This has always been our strong suit, this is what has kept me around and what makes KKF unique among knife forums. I feel, as do others, that we are starting to lose this and that is a great pity. Blame can certainly be passed around, but we must also look at ourselves and ask what we can do to make things better as well.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I will admit I do not know quite where I stand on the issue. On the one hand, I certainly don't condone buying of rare or 'hyped' knives with the immediate intent to flip for a profit, however I'm also not sure I can see a good way to stop it aside from members actively and consciously choosing to not buy from that person out of principle. I can also foresee some mistaken allegations flying around if we start actively punishing those who we believe are attempting to make a large profit. If its not a clear and obvious case of flipping, how can we be certain who is profiting and who is not without knowing what the buyer paid originally. I doubt we are going to start demanding receipts. 

I myself have sold items here on KKF at both a loss and a gain. I hope no one thinks less of me for admitting this, but I believe honesty is valuable in this discussion and I am not ashamed or guilty of this fact. I would not classify either scenario as more morally or ethically bankrupt than the other because I have not ripped anyone off, myself included. I have always sold at what I think an item is worth _to me_. Just as an example, if I take a chance and spend $400 on a jnat or knife from an auction or such sites and it turns out to be a decent stone or knife, but not worth the 400 I paid, I might sell it on BST but it _will_ be heavily discounted. Likewise, if I buy a $300 stone or knife that turns out to be awesome but I already have something similar, I _might_ sell it at a bit higher price due to its quality. I am always upfront if people ask me questions about items for sale as long as I can actually provide an answer and I expect that same courtesy to be extended back. Honesty and open communication is vital for both parties.

For me, I never buy something with the _intent_ of reselling it as I like to believe I will love everything, I buy with the intent to keep/own and then sell if I find it doesn't fit my needs. That intent is what I think drives people up the wall about flipping- its not someone who buys a Shig and then a year or two later goes to sell it after deciding its not for them, realizes the prices have gone up and that if they ever wanted to replace the item it would cost loads of cash so they raise their selling price to match the current market- its someone who buys an item with a new price already calculated in their heads for what they're going to sell it at.

I believe it is also important to make the distinction that vendors and businesses buy product at wholesale prices from which they derive their retail pricing. Vendors and businesses have to develop relationships with maker and suppliers, they have to market their items, they have to build trust and understanding with their customer base, and a dozen other things I'm probably forgetting. Someone buying a few knives at retail pricing and then reselling at higher prices is not the same thing and certainly is not a sustainable career without serious work. I think most of our vendors on KKF would agree that you can't run a business that way, but I absolutely sympathize with them and their annoyance when their products show up here at inflated prices.

So to sum up, I don't know how I feel about this situation. I agree with much of what others have said. If the moderators and folks decide on regulations I wish them good luck, but if it turns into a witch hunt I fear it could get ugly.

My wife always complains I overthink things so I will just say this- personally, I buy and sell according to my conscious while doing my best to respect the other members of the community and the spirit we try to uphold. That is all I feel that I have true control over.


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## Bill13

Kingkor said:


> I ain't a very active member of the forum on the threads, I never was and I probably will never be. But I had to comment, Everything everyone said here is right and nice and all but the main problems that nobody is talking about are the 2 i'm about to list:
> 
> 1. This "flipping"/selling for a profit is driving the market up, and this in my opinion is a very bad thing considering the fact that nothing is really changing(demand didn't grow in hundreds of percents and so didn't quality, unlike prices did).
> 2. The "community" that some of you started talking about in the forums is dying and will be gone forever because of it. I as an individual have no problem with it i'm keeping my friends close to me no matter what will happen here but think of it mainly for newcomers and other forum members.
> 
> Other than this there is another real big problem that isn't talked about which is the censorship that is going on in the forums, this is the main thing that made me less and less active in the forums. The general feeling is that if you talk badly about a vendor/maker/other forum member or shed some light/criticize on things(that we as a community or at least i as an individual would like to know), you get banned or you posts get deleted, this is a way bigger problem that should take over the flipping/selling for a profit thread that is just a consequence of the censorship that's happening here.
> 
> I hope this thread isn't deleted and i'd love to hear others opinions on this topic that aren't "legal legal bla bla bla.....".
> 
> Hope everyone has an awesome day



Going to disagree with #1, flipping or selling did not drive the prices up. A combination of supply and demand did so. The flipping is a result of that mismatch, not the cause. I'm not thrilled when I see new knives being flipped for a profit, but if I had a knife that had gone up in value over time that I was interested in selling I would list it at its "market" value, not what I paid for it. Maybe for a friend or longtime forum member I would work out a discount off the market price, but would not expect or ask others to do so. 

Policing such a thing would be a nightmare, do we ask for receipts to prove you are not making a profit, do we adjust for inflation?

Going to disagree with #2 also, sorry. The community can survive a few people making a profit off knives they sell on the BST. If someone is upset about the asked for price of a knife or stone, don't buy it. It's that simple. If it is purchased then the purchasee thought the asked for price was acceptable.

Your last point is more interesting/on spot to me. I have always viewed the censorship thing as a plus in the whole because it prevents the forum from becoming a sh** show of who said what or this knife makers knives suck and bla bla bla... Maybe it's gone too far? I have seen on the forums several threads about tardy, sometimes very tardy knife deliveries etc so so some negative commentary is allowed.


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## Kingkor

Bill13 said:


> Going to disagree with #1, flipping or selling did not drive the prices up. A combination of supply and demand did so. The flipping is a result of that mismatch, not the cause. I'm not thrilled when I see new knives being flipped for a profit, but if I had a knife that had gone up in value over time that I was interested in selling I would list it at its "market" value, not what I paid for it. Maybe for a friend or longtime forum member I would work out a discount off the market price, but would not expect or ask others to do so.
> 
> Policing such a thing would be a nightmare, do we ask for receipts to prove you are not making a profit, do we adjust for inflation?
> 
> Going to disagree with #2 also, sorry. The community can survive a few people making a profit off knives they sell on the BST. If someone is upset about the asked for price of a knife or stone, don't buy it. It's that simple. If it is purchased then the purchasee thought the asked for price was acceptable.
> 
> Your last point is more interesting/on spot to me. I have always viewed the censorship thing as a plus in the whole because it prevents the forum from becoming a sh** show of who said what or this knife makers knives suck and bla bla bla... Maybe it's gone too far? I have seen on the forums several threads about tardy, sometimes very tardy knife deliveries etc so so some negative commentary is allowed.



It's not that only the flipping or selling drove prices up, BUT and a big BUT at that the prices have gone up because people feel like they can drive them up{both individuals and some vendors}(it's not necessarily bad it's and there's not much to do about it), demand hasn't gone up so much like I stated in my first post like the prices have it's just that the market has gotten crazy(I haven't ever bought a knife for those crazy prices it's not my style). And I totally agree with selling at market value just not jacking the prices up(I admit I too have done this with a kato a long time ago and took advantage of the market and i'm not ashamed of it in any way but I haven't pushed it as far as it is today).

Other than that the community can survive anything it's more of what type of community we want to be than what we can do or survive. Why would anyone want to stay here and contribute time/knowledge when he can do so in other places that give him back alot more than a place that censors commentary and opinions, and lets newcomers buy knives/stones at a crazy markup because : "It's that simple. If it is purchased then the purchasee thought the asked for price was acceptable."

Censorship is never a plus, talking in a respecting and open minded way is.
Just some food for thought.....


----------



## jklip13

I think, for better or for worse, the sale and discussion of the sales in question makes for interesting dialogue. I see both the sale and comments/dissagreements as valuable information for a lot of people and, are opinions I appreciate learning from.
I agree though that if someone is opperating like a vendor, selling dozens or items with that as their only contribution should pay for that the way the other vendors do.


----------



## daveb

Bill makes the salient (to me) point that this is about a "few people" or very much the minority of transactions on bst. I'm not particularly interested in knives that could be sold at a markup and I've got more stones than I use without getting stupid on Jnats so I don't pay attention to every bst listing. But. The listings that are reported or called out are not the norm. It may be more of a problem than I realize but from the cheap seats it's almost noise.

Any questions about censorship probably belong elsewhere but as one with the magic button I can say that most, almost all, posts that are deleted are because of negative commentary on a bst thread. The OP on a bst thread "owns" that thread and I don't see that changing. It's been suggested that all bst threads become a "one post and locked" thread. I'm only reluctant to do this because much of the commentary on a bst thread can be useful to our newer (and this old fart) members.


----------



## Kingkor

daveb said:


> Bill makes the salient (to me) point that this is about a "few people" or very much the minority of transactions on bst. I'm not particularly interested in knives that could be sold at a markup and I've got more stones than I use without getting stupid on Jnats so I don't pay attention to every bst listing. But. The listings that are reported or called out are not the norm. It may be more of a problem than I realize but from the cheap seats it's almost noise.
> 
> Any questions about censorship probably belong elsewhere but as one with the magic button I can say that most, almost all, posts that are deleted are because of negative commentary on a bst thread. The OP on a bst thread "owns" that thread and I don't see that changing. It's been suggested that all bst threads become a "one post and locked" thread. I'm only reluctant to do this because much of the commentary on a bst thread can be useful to our newer (and this old fart) members.



What about commentary on transactions with sellers/vendors/forum members? what about thought on different knives? what about opinions on services?


----------



## Kingkor

I'm really looking for answers not trying to start a fight or anything here(please don't ban me :surrendar: , just kidding  ). But i'd really love an honest answer other than legal rights because opinions/comments written in a respectful way can be seen everywhere online.


----------



## StonedEdge

Personally I think some are trying to fix something that ain't broke. Maybe one way to appease the jealous whiners around here (you know who you are) would be to cap the value of a single given BST post involving multiple items? Or put in place a mandatory KKF donation linked to sales surpassing 'x' amount from non-vendors?

Either way, I see no wrong in keeping the status quo. If somebody is actively trying to buy and flip stuff for higher prices, the financial risk and allocation of time is on them. If it doesn't sell its their loss. If we outright ban this type of thing they'll end up elsewhere on the net anyway. Plus, who's gunna be the sheriff around here to accuse people of being "flippers" , it doesn't sound like a very thankful job and stands to alienate some members, potentially erroneously.


----------



## daveb

Kingkor said:


> I'm really looking for answers not trying to start a fight or anything here(please don't ban me :surrendar: , just kidding  ). But i'd really love an honest answer other than legal rights because opinions/comments written in a respectful way can be seen everywhere online.





Kingkor said:


> What about commentary on transactions with sellers/vendors/forum members? what about thought on different knives? what about opinions on services?



Comments on transactions with vendors have always been fair game. There have been times when some posts are meant to beleaguer the vendor rather than elicit information and there a line will be drawn and posts may disappear. Transactions with craftsmen, especially those who are not performing to contracted work are also fair game and much more latitude is provided. But even among these, 10% of respondents will actually have an interest in a delinquent transaction and 90% will be piling on to "save the world". Note that both these instances would be outside of the bst area.

Transactions with forum members, within the context of the bst sub-forum, will be limited to positive experiences. No legal mumbo jumbo applies, the thread belongs to the OP. Negative experiences can be detailed elsewhere but they will not be allowed to turn into a pissing contest.

And finally, in the course of the last two years only one individual has been banned. Nough said.


----------



## milkbaby

There are already some rules in place for bst such as the requirement for a certain number of forum posts before access to posting there. I believe there is also a limit on storage of private messages for non-site supporters which would limit the activity of an active flipper.

Seems to me that this discussion is mostly about feelings, i.e. people feel that having folks flip knives in bst is hurting the atmosphere, whether that is driving hysteria on rare and relatively hard to obtain knives or making the forum feel less of a community. These are valid issues but determining common sense and fair regulations to meet these ends that are enforceable is not simple.

Maybe kkf institutes a policy to limit the number of bst sales per month per member. But what happens when my daughter gets hit by a car or gets cancer and I need to sell everything immediately to pay for her medical care? Too bad? But maybe it's too bad that I don't particularly like flippers as well, but there's less harm done in that scenario than the one involving my daughter.

Edit to add: In any case, it could be argued that both scenarios are relatively rare.


----------



## chinacats

I still like to think of this in terms of being a gentleman's forum. If you bought a Shig 2 years ago for 400 and you sell it now for 600 no harm no foul. If you just want to sell knives to make $ then take it to eBay or crap knives to go forum...or pay here to be a vendor.

In golf people call their own penalties...and so don't do things purposefully that would be a penalty...it's a gentleman's game. This forum has usually been such a place...lately there have been people abusing this and it's annoying to no end...again I have no problem with the free market but the b/s/t is not a free market...it's a forum offering for members to get to try some new gear and pass it along if you don't want/need it...not a place to make money...simple as that in my mind.

Sure would like to hear some input from s0real on this...


----------



## cschoedler

chinacats said:


> I still like to think of this in terms of being a gentleman's forum. If you bought a Shig 2 years ago for 400 and you sell it now for 600 no harm no foul. If you just want to sell knives to make $ then take it to eBay or crap knives to go forum...or pay here to be a vendor.
> 
> In golf people call their own penalties...and so don't do things purposefully that would be a penalty...it's a gentleman's game. This forum has usually been such a place...lately there have been people abusing this and it's annoying to no end...again I have no problem with the free market but the b/s/t is not a free market...it's a forum offering for members to get to try some new gear and pass it along if you don't want/need it...not a place to make money...simple as that in my mind.
> 
> Sure would like to hear some input from s0real on this...



This +10000


----------



## Gregmega

I'm not a fan of over regulation because there's no way of truly regulating this micro market in a way that doesn't become tedious and overburdened with ridiculous rules. Walking that road is the idyllic utopia turned fascist where rules that are meant to preserve stack so deeply on top of each other that you can't even spit on the ground without being arrested. Go to Santa Monica and you'll see what I mean. How are you going to regulate my gift from grandma that I'm selling 'at a profit'? I also like some of these knives and every time one sells 100$ higher, it establishes a new threshold for the market to use as a newly set precedent. 

But I also view the 'believe in the free market' as a sanctimonious argument, it's low hanging fruit and a cheaply played card in a community that you want to retain its identity (I hope), and here's where chinacats golf rule holds up that self regulation that I admire about most the forum- however that's entirely dependent on the moral and ethical fiber of the community that uses it, not a downward force of action by rule of authority. 

And perhaps where the rubber meets the road is a variation of self policing? How about the mods take a proactive approach and install a 'report button' for suspected abusers as opposed to having to wade through dissenting comments and censoring valid comments from members?

On another note: I really don't think anyone who's flipping here is making a living wage. Maybe just semantics, but this doesn't give vendor status or tax evasion much traction in a real world convo. They're just seeing a gap in the market and taking advantage of it, and exposing why some vendors won't sell here in the first place. One very well known maker I know said basically this: why would I pay to be a vendor there when there are people there selling for free?

And where has soreal been? Why, he hasn't added to the community is quite some time[emoji848][emoji848][emoji848]hmmmmmmm.....


----------



## Chef Doom

I once tried to haggle for a Carter below the asking price. Person said no, so I moved on. Its called freedom of choice. 

People will always buy things they don't need at prices that are obviously inflated for reasons that have no real value. 

Besides, the spirit of the forum died the moment words like **** **** and dicks started being edited.


----------



## Chef Doom

Wait, dick isn't being edited???

Everyone pull your dicks out for Harambe! May the poor gorilla rest in peace. Can't even get your knuckle dragging swag going without being shot. THEY SAID THE ZOO WAS A SAFE SPACE &#128543;&#128546;&#128557;


----------



## HRC_64

The terms "free market" and "black market" 
are not synonyms, and they don't share the 
same levels of governance.

I think this is confounding a lot of people.

Wall street is a free market, one of the most Iconic,
but it has a-lot of professional constraints on who can trade
and how.

Thats what makes it an enduring institution.

They keep the market and its participants from 
eating itself.


----------



## daveb

Welcome to the party CD.


----------



## HRC_64

Chef Doom said:


> Wait, dick isn't being edited???
> 
> Everyone pull your dicks out for Harambe!



:rofl:


----------



## bkultra

Chef Doom is very passionate about dicks, noted.


----------



## buffhr

I see many valid points made in this thread...

However having been a mod in many forums for varying lengths of time the first thing id suggest thinking about is how anything could be done about this scenario and how much policing do you want to have to do, whilst remaining fair to everyone and not overwhelming the mods, but still establishing rules/guidelines that are clear and minimize "gray" area as everyone interpretations is different and right there is a big source of mixed feeling and potential situation to deal with...


Being fairly new to the forum and mainly a lurker (have been lurking for many years before joining), Id have to agree with chinacats that I have always seen this as a "gentlemans" area and hence why i joined here instead of xyz forums...
Also have to side with Dave M. that its alot about mindset and that is something that is practically impossible to judge from behind a keyboard and screen... Some people also intend to just test the waters or may see it as "helping the members out" and to be fair IMHO if someone goes to Japan and brings back a few knives and were to offload them at no profit fairly sure not many would bat an eye at this as this person is just helping others get what they want.

However in the case where someone buys low and sells high and that this is the intent all along is the scenario that seems to irk most people, e.g. profiting off of others and well like many I see this as an "annoyance", however if someone is willing to pay xxx price well did that seller not fulfill someones expectations...

The one thing that is clear in my mind is that if someone is intending to profit, the forum should have its share as they have now turned this into somewhat a "makeshift" business. And by this I dont mean member y selling is 5 yr old shig that he paid 250 for 5 years ago for 700 because thats just inflation/market value... OTOH where do you draw the line on this as well as not everyone is into Jknives to use them, some like the looks (drawer queen anyone...) and that knife would still be bnib in 2/5/15 years.

just my 0.02...


----------



## Bill13

Chef Doom said:


> Wait, dick isn't being edited???
> 
> Everyone pull your dicks out for Harambe! May the poor gorilla rest in peace. Can't even get your knuckle dragging swag going without being shot. THEY SAID THE ZOO WAS A SAFE SPACE &#128543;&#128546;&#128557;



Damn CD - took you long enough to find this thread and make me laugh, yet again.


----------



## Bill13

Kingkor said:


> It's not that only the flipping or selling drove prices up, BUT and a big BUT at that the prices have gone up because people feel like they can drive them up{both individuals and some vendors}(it's not necessarily bad it's and there's not much to do about it), demand hasn't gone up so much like I stated in my first post like the prices have it's just that the market has gotten crazy(I haven't ever bought a knife for those crazy prices it's not my style). And I totally agree with selling at market value just not jacking the prices up(I admit I too have done this with a kato a long time ago and took advantage of the market and i'm not ashamed of it in any way but I haven't pushed it as far as it is today).
> 
> Other than that the community can survive anything it's more of what type of community we want to be than what we can do or survive. Why would anyone want to stay here and contribute time/knowledge when he can do so in other places that give him back alot more than a place that censors commentary and opinions, and lets newcomers buy knives/stones at a crazy markup because : "It's that simple. If it is purchased then the purchasee thought the asked for price was acceptable."
> 
> I think your first sentence is incorrect. The seller on BST has no power over the rising costs. The vendors, maybe, if they also have control of all the supply like in the diamond market. It is the purchaser who has all the power. If no one is interested the price will be dropped or removed.
> Trying to manipulate this supply and demand equation never works - even in countries where the power of the government is almost absolute. Just look at the latest example Venezuela, the black market there is flourishing in response to the governments attempts to control pricing.


----------



## WildBoar

I spend time on another forum where there is a nice B/S/T subforum for the members to use to sell from their collections to other collectors. It is pretty well moderated. And then they also have a separate subforum for resellers/ flippers, that people who are not really members of the community and just want to make a buck off the membership can post for sale ads in. That one has very little moderation, as the trade-off for the people who sell there profiting off forum members is they posts can get crapped on if they make false claims, etc.

But the other aspect to this discussion is the fact that legitimate knife sellers/ vendors who pay to use KF as a vendor are subjected to competition from people who pay no fees.


----------



## Chef Doom

HRC_64 said:


> The terms "free market" and "black market"
> are not synonyms, and they don't share the
> same levels of governance.
> 
> I think this is confounding a lot of people.
> 
> Wall street is a free market, one of the most Iconic,
> but it has a-lot of professional constraints on who can trade
> and how.
> 
> Thats what makes it an enduring institution.
> 
> They keep the market and its participants from
> eating itself.



That may be true but you have to keep in mind that the rules put in place around Wall Street are out of the government's desire to control outcomes and to make sure contracts are upheld (most of the time), as well as installing barriers of entry so that commoners can not rise up in the ranks too high too quickly. Every thing here is done with a verbal handshake and controlling outcomes is a daunting and unforgiving task.


----------



## Chef Doom

WildBoar said:


> I spend time on another forum where there is a nice B/S/T subforum for the members to use to sell from their collections to other collectors. It is pretty well moderated. And then they also have a separate subforum for resellers/ flippers, that people who are not really members of the community and just want to make a buck off the membership can post for sale ads in. That one has very little moderation, as the trade-off for the people who sell there profiting off forum members is they posts can get crapped on if they make false claims, etc.
> 
> But the other aspect to this discussion is the fact that legitimate knife sellers/ vendors who pay to use KF as a vendor are subjected to competition from people who pay no fees.


I can see your point. I would not care either way but at a minimum you could say anyone who sells used knives above market value has to pay a fee. But then you need a rule around a scenario where said object is discontinued and no longer available. The question would be should there be a special case for vintage or antique items?


----------



## Bill13

Chef Doom said:


> I can see your point. I would not care either way but at a minimum you could say anyone who sells used knives above market value has to pay a fee. But then you need a rule around a scenario where said object is discontinued and no longer available. The question would be should there be a special case for vintage or antique items?



Right, and who spends the time tracking down the list price of every knife? I kinda like the separate BST idea but still prefer the way it is and letting the "market" figure things out. But I'm a fan of Milton Friedman, Art Laffer, and Thomas Sowell, so it's their fault.


----------



## Anton

getting complicated


----------



## McMan

[video=youtube;RWsx1X8PV_A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A[/video]


----------



## panda

dicks on dicks on dickks yeah


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

Another forum (Badger and Blade, a shaving forum) has these guidelines:

_*Pricing*. 

Sellers: You can set any price you want, but if you price high, do not be surprised when other members point that out. 

Buyers: You may comment on prices as long as it's done in a gentlemanly, non-accusatory, non-sarcastic fashion. 

Sellers: If someone comments on your price, accept it. That is a cost of using the BST. Be confident in your pricing and adapt it if you want or need to. We're not interested in back and forth or arguments. 

Buyers: If someone has commented on the price, consider the point made. No piling on. 

Individuals who we find to not be abiding by this simple rule will likely find themselves unable to access the BST.
_

Any thoughts on using it here?


----------



## daveb

You sir are the sage of this forum.


----------



## pete84

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Another forum (Badger and Blade, a shaving forum) has these guidelines:
> 
> _*Pricing*.
> 
> Sellers: You can set any price you want, but if you price high, do not be surprised when other members point that out.
> 
> Buyers: You may comment on prices as long as it's done in a gentlemanly, non-accusatory, non-sarcastic fashion.
> 
> Sellers: If someone comments on your price, accept it. That is a cost of using the BST. Be confident in your pricing and adapt it if you want or need to. We're not interested in back and forth or arguments.
> 
> Buyers: If someone has commented on the price, consider the point made. No piling on.
> 
> Individuals who we find to not be abiding by this simple rule will likely find themselves unable to access the BST.
> _
> 
> Any thoughts on using it here?



Amen.


----------



## chinacats

Yep!


----------



## Matus

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Another forum (Badger and Blade, a shaving forum) has these guidelines:
> 
> _*Pricing*.
> 
> Sellers: You can set any price you want, but if you price high, do not be surprised when other members point that out.
> 
> Buyers: You may comment on prices as long as it's done in a gentlemanly, non-accusatory, non-sarcastic fashion.
> 
> Sellers: If someone comments on your price, accept it. That is a cost of using the BST. Be confident in your pricing and adapt it if you want or need to. We're not interested in back and forth or arguments.
> 
> Buyers: If someone has commented on the price, consider the point made. No piling on.
> 
> Individuals who we find to not be abiding by this simple rule will likely find themselves unable to access the BST.
> _
> 
> Any thoughts on using it here?



And how does that work in real life? It sounds reasonable, but the reality may be different.


----------



## mise_en_place

It makes me laugh thinking about the 270 kasumi Shig I got from Mert a couple of years ago for $500 and resold for that price or slightly cheaper. Now I see kasumi 240s go for like $7-800?

****'s crazy.


----------



## Chef Doom

Matus said:


> And how does that work in real life? It sounds reasonable, but the reality may be different.


That is always the sticking point. Rules are pointless without some form of consistent enforcement.


----------



## Anton

Matus said:


> And how does that work in real life? It sounds reasonable, but the reality may be different.




I say we try it, what we got to loose other than more arguing? there will be no right or wrong there will always be two or three sides and arguing, stupidly. 

Put to vote - Community right?.. 

If I owned this place I'll frankly be fed-up and just shut it down, and y'all be spinning, so there is that. This is not a co-op nobody is forcing anyone to work or stay here.


----------



## StonedEdge

As long as HRC gets the first chance at posting the one and only price-whining post per BST thread this system could work.......lol


----------



## Jville

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Another forum (Badger and Blade, a shaving forum) has these guidelines:
> 
> _*Pricing*.
> 
> Sellers: You can set any price you want, but if you price high, do not be surprised when other members point that out.
> 
> Buyers: You may comment on prices as long as it's done in a gentlemanly, non-accusatory, non-sarcastic fashion.
> 
> Sellers: If someone comments on your price, accept it. That is a cost of using the BST. Be confident in your pricing and adapt it if you want or need to. We're not interested in back and forth or arguments.
> 
> Buyers: If someone has commented on the price, consider the point made. No piling on.
> 
> Individuals who we find to not be abiding by this simple rule will likely find themselves unable to access the BST.
> _
> 
> Any thoughts on using it here?



I had wrote a comment originally that was saying something similar but I wasn't logged in. Frustrated, I didn't rewrite it. I think this is one of the most concise answer with offering a practical "solution" or at least a valid, reasonable attempt.

I have one major concern about the piling on section. How is that define. Is a plus one, piling on. Is having a similar opinion piling on. Is making a comment after someone has made a comment piling on. Things are established by majorities, number, or strong evidence. 

If only one person is to make a comment and it's quitely buried by others not being able to express discontent in line with the rest of the rules. It becomes somewhat worthless. If you have one bad review of a restaurant in a sea of good ones. It isn't going to hold ANY weight. Reviews or in forum matters comments are part of regulating the free market. If they are censored it becomes sort of propaganda or at least vulnerable to ignorance. There has been a lot of sensitivity regarding protecting a free market, but not as much of protecting freedom of speech or opinion. This is important aspect of free market.


----------



## mille162

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ...and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it," -Supreme Court Justice Stewart, 1964

we have moderators for a reason, and I personally feel the distinction between a forum member selling/flipping a knife vs. being labeled a vendor should be left to them to decide. Let's let the moderators continue to police the listings and react at how they see fit. Hard fast rules & definitions just create loopholes for someone those rules apply to to discover and exploit those loopholes.

In my personal experience, I found a knife I was unsure of at Korin, but it was on sale and I had a gift card to use so I bought it. The salesmen even told me "you could list it tomorrow online and make money on it". It was a no-risk purchase for me. After almost a year of never using it, I decided I'd rather have the cash to purchase something else I would use. I listed it here on the forum and it sold for slightly more than I actually paid for it, but less than the original retail. The maker of the knife had since retired and stopped making knives and I probably could have listed it better and asked for more than the retail, and that would have been a fair market value. A forum member bought it and responded later he was enjoying the knife and was happy with the purchase. I've sold maybe 6-8 total knives here since joining 3 years ago, but I'm sure i've bought more than that here.

For the moderators consideration, I think it comes down to two criteria:

Activity on the forum: a widely active poster with lots of insight and helpful posts who is a very prominent member would obviously have more knives come across their cutting board, and have more to offer for sale. You upgrade and sell the older, you buy new brands/styles to test knowing you can always relist if you don't like, etc. That would be normal behavior. If you've recently joined, only post the minimum to get B/S/T access and always has 1-2 knives listed for sale, you're a business. 

Volume: If 1 person finds a close-out sale somewhere on a popular knife, buys 2-3, and sells them (either all for profit, or sells 2 to essentially get his 3rd for free), that's not a vendor, that's a well educated and enthusiastic knife guy with a hobby he's smart about. If he does it once a week, or even once a month, well that's approaching a business. Make a trip to Japan once a year and bringing home a few hard to get knives to resell on the forum and pay for your own purchases is more acceptable and doesn't make you a business. It's that large grey area between once and once a week that we should be rely on the moderators to police.

The one consideration I would make those (as a moderator) is new members and what they're listing. When I first joined, I had a very quick re-education on knives in general, and determined that most of what I currently had were not the best choices for me. I had an immediate urge to purge my entire roll and replace with all new brands and styles I had been exposed to. I listed a bunch of knives I no longer wanted, and was shopping for other models. I would think this would be normal behavior for someone just falling into this black hole of a hobby, lol.

Again, thank you moderators for doing such a good job keeping this forum of value and the right balance of commercial support (needed to survive) and hobbyists interacting with each other...as well as the long-time members and regular posters offering so many interesting and valuable posts on a variety of topics!


----------



## parbaked

^ Well put...thanks!

I would add another consideration when valuing "collectable" knives is replacement cost.
If I had to sell a Yo Shig to pay bills, I'd try to sell it for what it would cost me to replace it when i could afford to.
That to me is more important than what i paid for it...


----------



## StonedEdge

Seems to me the old system ain't broken. People just enjoy complaining about anything they possibly can


----------



## Jovidah

Or maybe some of us just have a different concept of 'community'... :disdain:


----------



## HRC_64

Jovidah said:


> Or maybe some of us just have a different concept of 'community'... :disdain:



+1 :rofl:


----------



## Gregmega

StonedEdge said:


> Seems to me the old system ain't broken. People just enjoy complaining about anything they possibly can



Where there's smoke... and there's been a lot of smoke. Maybe it's not the system but the people 'using' the system.


----------



## Nemo

Gregmega said:


> Where there's smoke... and there's been a lot of smoke. Maybe it's not the system but the people 'using' the system.


I guess in the end, the system's rules need to be able to cope with how people are actually using the system.

I suspect that there will always be some poeple who don't follow the unwritten "gentleman's rules". So either the rules need to be explicit around what is OK and what isn't or the rules should allow someone to be called out when they are not following "gentleman's rules".

A "free market" will tend to favour the side that has more information. If we retrict the flow of information, for example with BST rules which prohibit calling out high prices or flipping and similar business practices, there is potential to make the "free market" unfair in the seller's favour. Well may we say "caveat emptor", but how can a low information buyer be fully aware if we ban anyone from warning them of a problematic price or business practice?

FWIW, I support a free market, it's really the information assymetry in the context of that free market that I have a problem with.


----------



## ynot1985

Nemo said:


> I guess in the end, the system's rules need to be able to cope with how people are actually using the system.
> 
> I suspect that there will always be some poeple who don't follow the unwritten "gentleman's rules". So either the rules need to be explicit around what is OK and what isn't or the rules should allow someone to be called out when they are not following "gentleman's rules".
> 
> A "free market" will tend to favour the side that has more information. If we retrict the flow of information, for example with BST rules which prohibit calling out high prices or flipping and similar business practices, there is potential to make the "free market" unfair in the seller's favour. Well may we say "caveat emptor", but how can a low information buyer be fully aware if we ban anyone from warning them of a problematic price or business practice?
> 
> FWIW, I support a free market, it's really the information assymetry in the context of that free market that I have a problem with.



+1, it's only really free market if there is perfect information. By limiting opinions to one side of the equation reduces the notion of this free market principle.


----------



## Panamapeet

StonedEdge said:


> Seems to me the old system ain't broken. People just enjoy complaining about anything they possibly can



This discussion was going pretty amicably but your comments really start to annoy me. Not that you have to care or anything, but can you honestly not understans that people may have a different opinion than you?


----------



## Jville

ynot1985 said:


> +1, it's only really free market if there is perfect information. By limiting opinions to one side of the equation reduces the notion of this free market principle.



+1 to this and the comment that was qouted with it.


----------



## toddnmd

I think the last few quotes have captured some of the thoughts--people need information to make good decisions, and there is so much information out there that it's sometimes too difficult to find it.
I wouldn't mind people being able to respond to an offered price with a question or additional information. Buyers can choose to explain/justify or not. In the end, buyers have the choice of whether to buy or not.
To me, maintaining the connection between members of the community is more important than helping people maximize profits. It's not a common issue of people selling for high profits, or buying low here and selling high elsewhere, but I think the forum shouldn't necessarily be neutral about the transactions that occur here.


----------



## Gregmega

toddnmd said:


> I think the last few quotes have captured some of the thoughts--people need information to make good decisions, and there is so much information out there that it's sometimes too difficult to find it.
> I wouldn't mind people being able to respond to an offered price with a question or additional information. Buyers can choose to explain/justify or not. In the end, buyers have the choice of whether to buy or not.
> To me, maintaining the connection between members of the community is more important than helping people maximize profits. It's not a common issue of people selling for high profits, or buying low here and selling high elsewhere, but I think the forum shouldn't necessarily be neutral about the transactions that occur here.



Whole heartedly agree. But being neutral is different than bending the bias through control of censor. As with Nemo, that's a very astute observation. There's only so much you can discern from the many sales on many platforms to know a knife's provenance so-to-speak, let alone its seller, as I'm sure everyone who uses bst keeps an eye up for as many sales that happen as possible. It makes sense that any form of censorship limits a less informed buyer of knife X's true value, and by and large I'd bet those are the people buying these inflated knives. Those who are inclined and more aware of general values immediately smells a rat, isn't able to comment freely, and then suffers when a new price precedent is set. Back to those gentleman's rules though, to express those thoughts respectfully and freely to generate a more open dialogue to combat a very obviously predatory practice.


----------



## Chef Doom

There have been interesting studies done that show when people are given too much information and or too many options they either make poor decisions, no decision or make a wild guess. Maybe restricting information isn't all that bad.


----------



## Jville

Chef Doom said:


> There have been interesting studies done that show when people are given too much information and or too many options they either make poor decisions, no decision or make a wild guess. Maybe restricting information isn't all that bad.


I think this is a different situation than 4 types of mayonnaise to choose from


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## bkultra

Chef Doom said:


> There have been interesting studies done that show when people are given too much information and or too many options they either make poor decisions, no decision or make a wild guess. Maybe restricting information isn't all that bad.



Decision fatigue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_fatigue


----------



## milkbaby

There should be a separate sister forum called Kitchen Knife Buy/Sell/Trade Forums then we won't have to worry about it here anymore.


----------



## fujiyama

daveb said:


> To me, re-sellers provide an opportunity for people to buy knives that they would not otherwise encounter. And a consensual transaction between buyer and seller is between them and not for others to judge. I'm not going to judge others that marked it up to market value.



I wholeheartedly agree, Dave. 



YG420 said:


> I also dont like when people are hypocrites and only call out certain individuals and not their buddies when they do the same. There needs to be some consistency with the WTT threads as well, some ppl get called out for not listing a price, and others dont.



+1 

This post hit home to me; I can't believe no one else commented on it!


----------



## fujiyama

I'm only here to contribute a big factor that's been left out of this discussion - with a worldwide membership, how do you know what someone paid for an item?

For example, the Province I live in imposes a 15% sales tax on goods. 

Generally, U.S. customers receive free shipping. I pay $30 USD for shipping on average. When importing, I also get dinged with fees for that (which can vary depending on the shipper). 

Oh, PayPal! When making a purchase in foreign currency (eg. USD or JPY), a 2.5% fee is imposed. 

Now let's look selling internationally with PayPal. :cool2: PayPal charges 2.9%, plus 2.5% when a currency conversion is involved, plus 1.5% for an international transaction, plus $0.30 flat fee. Plus other hidden discrepancies - for example, their currency conversion rates are famous for being higher than XE or Google. 

That's 6.9% in PayPal fees plus $0.30. Oh, plus the 2.5% fee I paid to purchase the product = 9.4% in PayPal fees plus $0.30

9.4% fees plus 15% provincal taxes = 24.4% price difference ++. Anyone following my shady math? 

*So potentially, someone could have paid over 25% more than you for the same product to land in their hands. *


----------



## Gregmega

I don't generally think that's what the gripe is that folks here are speaking to. Though I think everybody understands that, I don't think it's discouraged to recoup if it's fairly done. 

To make it clear, at least for myself, I believe it's the practice of sniping Katos or Shigs or knives of the like and immediately selling them at a massive mark up- in a community that's by and large benevolent and not out to take advantage of each other, but here to support each other. It's especially discouraging because most people here see and are aware of where they are coming from, what they cost, and when they've been sold. It's a kin to your neighbor peeking over you fence and seeing you like to BBQ, but then jumping in front of the meat truck and grabbing the brisket before you have a chance and then selling it to you at a super premium. 

Everyone pays shipping, but I count that as the convenience of having it brought to me, not a burden for the next guy to shoulder. Your geography is your choice, not the guy you're selling to.


----------



## tgfencer

Hey folks, I just wanted to say that I for one appreciate the general candor and respect that everyone who has contributed to this thread has shown while discussing a hot topic. The circumstances that lead to its creation aside, I actually think this thread has shown a great deal of community spirit despite differing opinions. I'll admit I winced a bit at first when I saw the title thinking this could go very badly, but I've been pleasantly surprised. I like being a part of a forum that can have an adult conversation without it flying off the rail and descending into accusation and name calling.


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## welshstar

Wine berserkers has a strict no comments about pricing policy, seems to work well


----------



## charlesquik

This is an interesting thread. Being kind of new here I see a lot of flipper and can't help to think they are toxic to this community.


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## chinacats

charlesquik said:


> This is an interesting thread. Being kind of new here I see a lot of flipper and can't help to think they are toxic to this community.



Well put my friend.


----------



## Andreu

Profit by definition is a financial gain. With this in mind, what if John Doe bought his Shigefusa 240 gyuto kasumi 5 years ago and decided to sell it today. We all know that the knife prices had increased. If he decides to sell it at the current retail price, wouldnt you think that he would have profited from the knife given that most likely he bought the knife cheaper than the current retail price? Would you then condemn him from profiting? Would you have taken a different approach and be honest with the sale price and sell it at your original cost?

I am staying neutral on this subject. I am merely putting the question out there for the other members to ask themselves this question and honestly answer it.

How would you police this situation if you are against making profit in BST?


----------



## chinacats

Andreu said:


> Profit by definition is a financial gain. With this in mind, what if John Doe bought his Shigefusa 240 gyuto kasumi 5 years ago and decided to sell it today. We all know that the knife prices had increased. If he decides to sell it at the current retail price, wouldnt you think that he would have profited from the knife given that most likely he bought the knife cheaper than the current retail price? Would you then condemn him from profiting? Would you have taken a different approach and be honest with the sale price and sell it at your original cost?
> 
> I am staying neutral on this subject. I am merely putting the question out there for the other members to ask themselves this question and honestly answer it.
> 
> How would you police this situation if you are against making profit in BST?




I believe this discussion is more related to flipping knives than turning profit.

In my opinion a knife you spent 500 bucks for a few years back that now generally goes for 700 it's acceptable to sell it for that though I personally feel it goes against the general spirit. There are often examples of gentlemanly sales including a Shig on the market now...and I often see these offerings...again, if you want to sell that knife for 700 go for it...doesn't make you a bad person just one with a different opinion

Flipping is an entirely different deal...there have been quite a few recent examples and what I believe to be part of the inspiration in starting this discussion. As an aside, the actual source thread is much less offensive imo than the ones not specifically pointed to in this thread.

It was rather amusing a few years back to see Forgies start to go for so much cash on the bay likely driven in large part by the hype created here. EBay is where that behavior makes sense...specifically a free market...to me these markets should remain distinct from each other...not so amusing when it occurs in a forum setting.

I've had my say more than once in this thread but I've really enjoyed hearing others thoughts/opinions.


----------



## welshstar

Another thought

If someone is flipping, dont buy from them. Will soon stop the flipping

No demand, no flipping


----------



## Jville

The difference between flipping and a knive appreciating has been talked about and I think people can tell the difference. I don't think anyone is really complaining about selling a knife at new market value that someone bought previously. The people who are upset are upset about taking knives off the market from people who would actually like to own them, just to resell it those same people here for an inflated price.


----------



## charlesquik

Jville said:


> The difference between flipping and a knive appreciating has been talked about and I think people can tell the difference. I don't think anyone is really complaining about selling a knife at new market value that someone bought previously. The people who are upset are upset about taking knives off the market from people who would actually like to own them, just to resell it those same people here for an inflated price.



That it! They only buy these knives faster than other people forcing them to buy at a higher price. This is what we are talking in this thread. 
We don't care if you resell your knife that you don't like or you sell it after some time.

Exemple you buy the whole shig shipment preventing anyone to buy and then sell 1 by 1 here at a premium price because demand drives price up. That is flipping


----------



## Gregmega

Exactly. Buying 3 or 5 Masamoto KS and immediately selling them here for 100$ more is flipping. There 10 people in his forum that would have genuinely liked to have ONE of those knives in their collection for USE.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

Still amazes me why anyone cares what someone else does with their own property.


----------



## HRC_64

Chicagohawkie said:


> Still amazes me why anyone cares what someone else does with their own property.



"property"? :rofl:


----------



## Wdestate

Chicagohawkie said:


> Still amazes me why anyone cares what someone else does with their own property.



Could not agree more with you


----------



## HRC_64

Wdestate said:


> Could not agree more with you



Tell me more ... how you "own" the market you sell on?
Do you "own" the NYSE when you sell a stock?


----------



## Chef Doom

Jville said:


> I think this is a different situation than 4 types of mayonnaise to choose from


But in a true free-market there will be over a dozen brands to choose from.

Of course every brand will eventually consolidate into 2 major corporations which is also allowed under free market guidlines.


----------



## Chef Doom

Jville said:


> I think this is a different situation than 4 types of mayonnaise to choose from


But in a true free-market there will be over a dozen brands to choose from.

Of course every brand will eventually consolidate into 2 major corporations which is also allowed under free market guidlines.


Jville said:


> I think this is a different situation than 4 types of mayonnaise to choose from


----------



## Chef Doom

fujiyama said:


> I wholeheartedly agree, Dave.
> 
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> This post hit home to me; I can't believe no one else commented on it!


I have come to accept that most people are hypocrites one way or another and people will find any means necessary to justify their double standard and even triple standard mentality


----------



## rick_english

welshstar said:


> Another thought
> 
> If someone is flipping, dont buy from them. Will soon stop the flipping
> 
> No demand, no flipping



Problem is, there's ALWAYS someone who will buy a rare/popular/collectible knife, no matter what the price. Economists talk about "willing seller and willing buyer," but that works better in theory than in real life. If there's a hurricane coming and there's one 5-gallon bottle of water left in the store and the price is $50, someone will buy it. No threats or coercion involved, just a thirsty buyer and a greedy seller.


----------



## Anton

Chef Doom said:


> I have come to accept that most people are hypocrites one way or another and people will find any means necessary to justify their double standard and even triple standard mentality



yup, unfortunately. 

This thing called capitalism is live and strong, everywhere not just here; universalization of money-based social relations


----------



## Chef Doom

rick_english said:


> Problem is, there's ALWAYS someone who will buy a rare/popular/collectible knife, no matter what the price. Economists talk about "willing seller and willing buyer," but that works better in theory than in real life. If there's a hurricane coming and there's one 5-gallon bottle of water left in the store and the price is $50, someone will buy it. No threats or coercion involved, just a thirsty buyer and a greedy seller.


Speak for yourself. I'm taking the water today and apologizing to the store owner after the crisis is over....assuming we are both alive.

Otherwise I will apologize at his funeral, he/she can spit on my grave, or we can have a duel in the afterlife to clear the negative Feng Shui


----------



## StonedEdge

Wake the rest of us up when y'all reach a decision on this "issue"


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## Matus

We have heard the words free market a lot here. Maybe it is time to remind people, that there are no free markets out there. There are tons of regulations and laws in place, otherwise we would be able to buy shares of production companies making child pornography or heroine , because for both there would certainly be customers. 

Going back to our case, I do mot see how admins could stop flipping even if they wanted to. But I think the community should have the possibility - always in a respectful manner - to discuss the issue when it occurs. In particular since it appears that many consider flipping unwanted around here, although if it only has a status of a cavaliers delict.


----------



## LucasFur

Thanks Matus, but were not talking about Illegal items here. 

The market must set it's self on these knives. 

If you want a knife bad enough, well to bad. Buy early or buy high. 

I know for my Kono honyaki, I get offers monthly, sometimes Bi-weekly. And Ya'll are savages for it. (Still not for sale, Dont PM me) -- (I know I'll get a Pm still :nunchucks


----------



## bkultra

LucasFur said:


> Thanks Matus, but were not talking about Illegal items here.
> 
> The market must set it's self on these knives.
> 
> If you want a knife bad enough, well to bad. Buy early or buy high.
> 
> I know for my Kono honyaki, I get offers monthly, sometimes Bi-weekly. And Ya'll are savages for it. (Still not for sale, Dont PM me) -- (I know I'll get a Pm still :nunchucks



PM sent 8)


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## YG420

Savages &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


----------



## labor of love

LucasFur said:


> Thanks Matus, but were not talking about Illegal items here.
> 
> The market must set it's self on these knives.
> 
> If you want a knife bad enough, well to bad. Buy early or buy high.
> 
> I know for my Kono honyaki, I get offers monthly, sometimes Bi-weekly. And Ya'll are savages for it. (Still not for sale, Dont PM me) -- (I know I'll get a Pm still :nunchucks



But thats just it. Does the community here overall favor a free market approach where theres profit to be made flipping or should we try and find a way to discourage such behavior?
People will buy and sell rare knives at twice the price of retail I agree. Its inevitable. But sellers are coming to this forum over eBay because the market is here. Why shouldnt we push for profitable flipping back to eBay?
Ive been following this thread since the beginning and I still havent heard a decent counter argument to my earlier point: It seems odd that the forum facilitates a atmosphere for people to flip knives and profit (sometimes $200-300 from just a single knife) for free. If people are using this forum to profit and flip knives, shouldnt the forum at the very least find a way to profit off the profiteers?


----------



## Chicagohawkie

labor of love said:


> But thats just it. Does the community here overall favor a free market approach where theres profit to be made flipping or should we try and find a way to discourage such behavior?
> People will buy and sell rare knives at twice the price of retail I agree. Its inevitable. But sellers are coming to this forum over eBay because the market is here. Why shouldnt we push for profitable flipping back to eBay?
> Ive been following this thread since the beginning and I still havent heard a decent counter argument to my earlier point: It seems odd that the forum facilitates a atmosphere for people to flip knives and profit (sometimes $200-300 from just a single knife) for free. If people are using this forum to profit and flip knives, shouldnt the forum at the very least find a way to profit off the profiteers?



I hear where your coming from in terms of the flippers. However, Id be careful for what you wish for. There are secondary and tertiary markets with the social media outlets and theres the other forum thats pretty hands off. Id say only a small percentage of sales are these high end knives so not sure you want to abandon the viewership for them simply go somewhere else. The soreals will sort themselves out. If I find a knife I want and I want to pay a little more to get it, then so be it. I dont want someone to tell me what I can or cant pay for something.


----------



## labor of love

The flippers hardly contribute to the forum outside of flipping as far as I can tell. Most have very few posts and those posts are usually in threads related to knives that are flippable (shig alert). This forum seems pretty dominant as far as kitchen knife forums go. Marks traffic seems to be mainly centered around noob stuff, konosuke updates, And his upcoming inventory. Social media alternatives will only increase overtime regardless of whatever this forum wants to do I think. 
I dont see any negative repercussions happening by asking flippers to flip elsewhere as they werent contributing here in any way.
Honestly, Im not even convinced of my own argument. But its argument that I think is worth hearing and debating. Consider this a mental exercise.


----------



## crockerculinary

I notice nobody has really mentioned how this affects the makers, just the buyers. Maybe some makers can chime in but I would think if a knife you sold for 400 was going for 6 because its in demand, you would be pretty happy and take it as a sign that you could raise your prices a bit, and hopefully make a little money out of this hard ass business. Ive watched this pattern happen with a number of makers, and Im all for the makers doing better, even if it costs me, the buyer, a little more.
I realize the comments are mostly about gouging on limited production runs and not one of a kind customs like Im interested in, but I would think the same would apply to those makers/manufacturers. Maybe not.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

labor of love said:


> The flippers hardly contribute to the forum outside of flipping as far as I can tell. Most have very few posts and those posts are usually in threads related to knives that are flippable (shig alert). This forum seems pretty dominant as far as kitchen knife forums go. Marks traffic seems to be mainly centered around noob stuff, konosuke updates, And his upcoming inventory. Social media alternatives will only increase overtime regardless of whatever this forum wants to do I think.
> I dont see any negative repercussions happening by asking flippers to flip elsewhere as they werent contributing here in any way.
> Honestly, Im not even convinced of my own argument. But its argument that I think is worth hearing and debating. Consider this a mental exercise.



Well, since it really doesnt apply to most. I really find it trivial. Its always the same knives and many times the same people. Way too many variables to even consider controlling. Some of the Harley sites I buy and sell parts on require a wait to be allowed to sell, that lets people get to know each other and their first transactions are moderated. Another thing I find ironic is much of the hype and run up occurs right here. So, you really have to hate the game and not the player.


----------



## labor of love

Mods,
Is there anyway we can put this up for vote on the forum?



Pensacola Tiger said:


> Another forum (Badger and Blade, a shaving forum) has these guidelines:
> 
> _*Pricing*.
> 
> Sellers: You can set any price you want, but if you price high, do not be surprised when other members point that out.
> 
> Buyers: You may comment on prices as long as it's done in a gentlemanly, non-accusatory, non-sarcastic fashion.
> 
> Sellers: If someone comments on your price, accept it. That is a cost of using the BST. Be confident in your pricing and adapt it if you want or need to. We're not interested in back and forth or arguments.
> 
> Buyers: If someone has commented on the price, consider the point made. No piling on.
> 
> Individuals who we find to not be abiding by this simple rule will likely find themselves unable to access the BST.
> _
> 
> Any thoughts on using it here?


----------



## labor of love

crockerculinary said:


> I notice nobody has really mentioned how this affects the makers, just the buyers. Maybe some makers can chime in but I would think if a knife you sold for 400 was going for 6 because its in demand, you would be pretty happy and take it as a sign that you could raise your prices a bit, and hopefully make a little money out of this hard ass business. Ive watched this pattern happen with a number of makers, and Im all for the makers doing better, even if it costs me, the buyer, a little more.
> I realize the comments are mostly about gouging on limited production runs and not one of a kind customs like Im interested in, but I would think the same would apply to those makers/manufacturers. Maybe not.



I think it would be a lot cooler if Kato/Shig just sold knives for hundreds more. Flippers are potentially making more in profit from these knives than the actual bladesmiths.


----------



## Chicagohawkie

labor of love said:


> I think I would be a lot cooler if Kato just sold his knives for hundreds more.



I thought about this years ago. I too wish there was a Japanese ecommerce group that catered to these craftsmen and set them up to maximize their dollar potential. But then again, who knows if many of them would be discovered? All the custom guys do their own thing set own price.


----------



## milkbaby

Chef Doom said:


> I have come to accept that most people are hypocrites one way or another and people will find any means necessary to justify their double standard and even triple standard mentality



My multiple personality disorder doesn't feel like there's a need to justify my triple standard mentality! Unless we do, so there.


----------



## crockerculinary

labor of love said:


> I think I would be a lot cooler if Kato/Shig just sold knives for hundreds more. Flippers are potentially making more in profit from these knives than the actual bladesmiths.



oh absolutely, but this may prove my point. forgive me for not being educated on the matter, but have they not increased their prices after the secondary market prices went up?


----------



## daveb

Am I the only one that's thinking those that buy from "flippers" are for the most part buying for the "next Kramer" and are motivated by the flipping (they would call it investment) potential themselves?





labor of love said:


> I think I would be a lot cooler if Kato/Shig just sold knives for hundreds more. Flippers are potentially making more in profit from these knives than the actual bladesmiths.


----------



## minibatataman

I think the issue comes from people using it to make a buck out of it, like being a highly sought after knife off of BST just to resell it for more. For me it's important to differentiate between those and people who buy to try and then quickly sells


----------



## HRC_64

daveb said:


> Am I the only one that's thinking those that buy from "flippers" are for the most part buying for the "next [brand x]" and are motivated by the flipping (they would call it investment) potential themselves?



No, you're not the only one that sees this,
it's perceived as ~risk-less arbitrage.

On the topic of transparency,
its also important to think about
these things.

cheers


----------



## Gregmega

Whatever side of the fence you're on or even straddling the subject, you have to ask yourself what kind of community you're comfortable perpetuating. While there's no way to enforce it realistically, you certainly can do something to help protect the gentlemen's agreement, or trust factor, that many have spoken so highly of in the past of the good people of this community.


----------



## milkbaby

daveb said:


> Am I the only one that's thinking those that buy from "flippers" are for the most part buying for the "next Kramer" and are motivated by the flipping (they would call it investment) potential themselves?



There are probably many different motivations, although I'm sure there's at least a few who fit the profile above.

I'm also sure there's some people who are just interested due to hype and rarity. When something gets good rep and is scarce, it tends to drive up demand. Knife nuts are a relatively small community, but look how just getting some hype sells some knives -- which may be great knives to be fair, but probably others that are just as nice aren't in as great a demand. How many pages are there on the Mazaki forged knife thread which was started less than 2 months ago?

I know it's approaching beating a dead horse territory... But I think the best way to discourage activities against the spirit of the forum or for better community is already under the current restrictions on kkf. Basically, small number of private message storage allowed, no posts to b/s/t until 50(? or whatever number) of "good" forum posts allowed, no resellers/retailers without proper membership level, etcetera. I know these restrictions are waived for site supporters, but that's fair for paying customers so to speak, in my opinion. BTW, how many of y'all complaining have that little banner under your name, eh? :scratchhead: 

Maybe an additional case-by-case restriction that the privilege of posting to b/s/t can be suspended for abusing it. There is some grey area on who is a reseller/retailer. One might not have a brick and mortar store or even a website, but if somebody is regularly buying knives and reselling knives, in my opinion that is a reseller. The grey area may be where somebody likes to catch and release just out of curiosity as a collector or enthusiast. But in those cases, it's probably at a level less than a dedicated flipper, plus the knives will probably be from a wider variety of blacksmiths.


----------



## Marek07

Gregmega said:


> Exactly. Buying 3 or 5 Masamoto KS and immediately selling them here for 100$ more is flipping. There 10 people in his forum that would have genuinely liked to have ONE of those knives in their collection for USE.


Must stress the overall integrity of this forum. When the KS hype hit, a forumite secured one for me at *below current retail*. Not only did he not make money on the deal, he helped me get an exceptionally good deal. Kudos to you kind sir!


----------



## LucasFur

It would be pretty ****** if somebody bought all the collectible knives and then just sold them all at inflated prices. 
I guess when the car community does it, its ok on the down low. But the guys that make it a business with high volume of purchases/Sales, register it as a business. 

I know people also, myself included go out and hunt down the blades. Then they go and sell them here at the inflated price. This practice should be fine, hourly it pays less than minimum wage and is really just good at trying different blades. 

Would everybody agree that selling over say 6 knives a year at OBVIOUS profits should be a business account? 
Problem is sellers would just sell on Ebay, or other forums. All any enforcement would do is push profiteering sellers to other platforms.


----------



## chinacats

LucasFur said:


> It would be pretty ****** if somebody bought all the collectible knives and then just sold them all at inflated prices.
> I guess when the car community does it, its ok on the down low. But the guys that make it a business with high volume of purchases/Sales, register it as a business.
> 
> I know people also, myself included go out and hunt down the blades. Then they go and sell them here at the inflated price. This practice should be fine, hourly it pays less than minimum wage and is really just good at trying different blades.
> 
> Would everybody agree that selling over say 6 knives a year at OBVIOUS profits should be a business account?
> Problem is sellers would just sell on Ebay, or other forums. All any enforcement would do is push profiteering sellers to other platforms.



Exactly...push them somewhere else...please.

I still think that what PT posted is a good solution...at least let them be called out here.


----------



## HRC_64

chinacats said:


> Exactly...push them somewhere else...please.



+1

Don't sh!t where you eat.


----------



## labor of love

Chicagohawkie said:


> Another thing I find ironic is much of the hype and run up occurs right here. So, you really have to hate the game and not the player.



Good point and a better analogy. Im floating the idea that the game be moved to a different arena.


----------



## LucasFur

Same people commenting here are asking for lists of what's still avaliabe here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/35307-Konosuke-Fujiyama-Knives -- a(from what I see) flipper that bought a whole line of knives.


----------



## Dave Martell

LucasFur said:


> Same people commenting here are asking for lists of what's still avaliabe here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/35307-Konosuke-Fujiyama-Knives -- a(from what I see) flipper that bought a whole line of knives.



That same member had a Kato sale too - http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/35306-Kato-Gyutos?p=525897#post525897


----------



## labor of love

LucasFur said:


> Same people commenting here are asking for lists of what's still avaliabe here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/35307-Konosuke-Fujiyama-Knives -- a(from what I see) flipper that bought a whole line of knives.



Which names? I dont see any of the same names at all. I do see lots of people with 37-150 post counts(as usual).


----------



## Chicagohawkie

Dave Martell said:


> That same member had a Kato sale too - http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/35306-Kato-Gyutos?p=525897#post525897



Yup, hes right up there with soreal! There have been plenty others as well!


----------



## Salty dog

Looks like a vendor to me.
Back in the day this type of behavior would be unacceptable.
The fact that there is even a debate about it boggles my mind.
Just my two cents.


----------



## gic

It seems to me that management needs to set some sort of mental threshold and once someone's passes that for selling nib stuff, they have to justify not being charged the vendor price for membership. Note I'm not saying there should be a hard and fast rule though and people offering lots of nib stuff for trade obviously are different. (Heck, I'm thinking of offering most of the shig single bevels I've acquired over the years for trade for interesting double bevels. I just never used most of them-turns out except for yanis I'm a double bevel guy!)


----------



## Matus

Maybe we just need a 'flipping alert' smiley and re-wrtie the BST rules that make FS threads basically untouchable.


----------



## LucasFur

I dont know guys. You guys with 1000's of posts have invested more time into this community than i have. 
BUT, as soon as you push the flippers away, it will push the buying traffic market to another location. And im very happy with this forum being among the top places for knife purchases. I wish it was THE world wide undisputed top admittedly (might be) . All kato/shig/kono sales will just be held somewhere else. You cant stop them, inevitably the forum runs the risk of being killed like the fora because people purchasing will go somewhere else for their knife inquiries, and information sharing. If we are going the route of stopping flippers, which is a fair idea, please let me and others know so i can start building my reputation on other sites. 
Maybe Taxing them? But then how do you track it? ... bad news all around.


----------



## Chef Doom

The very people here complaining about flippers will never call their cable company to have infomercials removed from your favorite network nor would you have the cops remove the Jehovah's witness that knocks on your door every morning. 

I remember when food trucks first became popular, the general public was in an uproar that any city official was hassling these hard working people. Even though they were not paying property taxes, sales taxes, and any other tax that burdens the common brick and mortar establishment. 

Nobody really cares about the evils of Amazon, Wal-Mart, or kitchen knife flippers.


----------



## StonedEdge

Let's get real, this thread will have reached six digit page count in twenty years time and still nobody will have made an actionable decision on the matter. Just hot air. These flippers don't hurt anyone other than people too naive or impulsive to do their due diligence.


----------



## HRC_64

StonedEdge said:


> Let's get real, this thread will have reached six digit page count in twenty years time and still nobody will have made an actionable decision on the matter. Just hot air. These flippers don't hurt anyone other than people too naive or impulsive to do their due diligence.




The admins can easily lock threads for technical but non-toxic technical errors, 
like "please pay my paypal fees" and "WTT, no price specified"...

Not sure what is so hard about this?


----------



## StonedEdge

HRC_64 said:


> The admins can easily lock threads for technical but non-toxic technical errors,
> like "please pay my paypal fees" and "WTT, no price specified"...
> 
> Not sure what is so hard about this?


I guess the upside is that it gives some an avenue to wave their fists

What I'm getting at is that this thread is literally useless unless a decision is reached.


----------



## HRC_64

StonedEdge said:


> What I'm getting at is that this thread is literally useless unless a decision is reached.



This thread is a Q&A thread for discussion





Better to fix properly
than be in a rush.





cheers


----------



## StonedEdge

This thread is a microcosm of how governments function. That in itself is worth the price of admission.


----------



## ashy2classy

Spipet said:


> I think we should make a clear distinction between people who flip knives, and people who do not. I see people here giving examples like 'I bought this knife in 2014 for 300$ but will sell in 2018 at fair market value'. This is NOT flipping. Flipping is buying a Shig from JNS, and selling it within a very short period. And I am the first to admit that there will be situations where it is not clear cut like this, but lets take this as an example.
> 
> Now for the question of whether to allow this or not. To me, the 'flipping' example is a clear sign of someone acting as a business and/or selling for a profit. In my opinion, this behavior should not be supported by KKF (through BST) as (i) it ruins the opportunity for people to buy a knife at a decent price (I think most of the time this regards knives that are generally available) and (ii) it leads to an unequal treatment of 'normal' vendors on KKF (who do pay a fee for being on here).
> 
> Finally, to everyone who is using the 'free market' argument: that may be true for eBay or some other auction site, but I like to think that KKF is a more close knit community where we can help each other out, instead of trying to make money at every opportunity. I know it may be hard to understand for some, but sometimes a little guidance is not too bad for a market.



Way late to this thread, but this is all that needs to be said, IMO. There needs to be a distinction between flipping (buying and immediately selling for a profit) vs buying a knife for his or own use, then deciding to sell later at market prices. If the seller buys the knife for the sole purpose of selling it, then it shouldn't be allowed, based on the goal of BST. As was said, it's not always easy to determine, but there's a pretty clear line to be drawn, IMO.


----------



## Andreu

ashy2classy said:


> Way late to this thread, but this is all that needs to be said, IMO. There needs to be a distinction between flipping (buying and immediately selling for a profit) vs buying a knife for his or own use, then deciding to sell later at market prices. If the seller buys the knife for the sole purpose of selling it, then it shouldn't be allowed, based on the goal of BST. As was said, it's not always easy to determine, but there's a pretty clear line to be drawn, IMO.



Not that I am arguing with these statements as I am still neutral on this subject. But what do you base it on to decide if one is flipping? Are the admins going to start requesting proof of purcahases to verify the date and amount paid for the knife to make sure the member is not flipping the knife? If not, then all were doing is speculating and accusing the member. Im sure there a few examples out there that are pretty obvious. But some are hard to discern if they are filppers or just honestly trying to sell the knife and recoup what they invested without much loss.


----------



## labor of love

Numerous people have commented that flipping isnt obvious, but it is. Anything that is purchased usually very recently and is then resold on BST listed as brand new inbox with a significant markup of $100 or more is flipping. The reason the item is sold as brand new inbox is no accident. Its to maximize profit from the resale.


----------



## Andreu

labor of love said:


> Numerous people have commented that flipping isnt obvious, but it is. Anything that is purchased usually very recently and is then resold on BST listed as brand new inbox with a significant markup of $100 or more is flipping. The reason the item is sold as brand new inbox is no accident. Its to maximize profit from the resale.



With all do respect, Craig I am now a bit concern. I am concern because I had acquired a BNIB Shigefusa Kitaeji from another member to whom I respect and will remain nameless. While I have no intention of selling the knife, I will use it as an example. 

If for some reason this BNIB knife that I paid over $100.00 over retail was not what I had expected and didnt use it nor sharpen it, it is still considered BNIB. If I post it in BST to sell for the same amount that I bought the knife for, which is over your $100.00 threshold, and my description of the knife states BNIB, will you then label me as a flipper unjustly?

As you can see, it is not that simple. You can quickly jump to conclusion that based on my pricing and description, that I am a flipper without knowing exactly the story behind it. On the other hand, how will you know if the member is telling the truth or just copy my scenario and lie so he can lawfully flip the knife?

I am not questioning your positioning on this issue nor defending any flippers. I am merely stating my concern.


----------



## HRC_64

> hard to discern if they are filppers or just honestly trying to sell the knife and recoup what they invested without much loss.



Worst case is sales happen on e-bay?
Still don't see this as a problem.


----------



## Chef Doom

labor of love said:


> Numerous people have commented that flipping isnt obvious, but it is. Anything that is purchased usually very recently and is then resold on BST listed as brand new inbox with a significant markup of $100 or more is flipping. The reason the item is sold as brand new inbox is no accident. Its to maximize profit from the resale.


I'm sorry but a $100 markup is far from flipping. You clearly have either

A. Never been in the dope game.
B. Was in the dope game and went broke due to your poor flipping practices.


----------



## ynot1985

labor of love said:


> Numerous people have commented that flipping isnt obvious, but it is. Anything that is purchased usually very recently and is then resold on BST listed as brand new inbox with a significant markup of $100 or more is flipping. The reason the item is sold as brand new inbox is no accident. Its to maximize profit from the resale.



I'm with Andreu on this.

I'm not embarrassed to say I collect shigs and Kato. I even have spares/doubles that I purchased with the intention to use as trade bait (sometimes a knife is a better enticement for people to part with their knife rather than money). I do use some of my Shigs/katos but as a home cook, there is no way I can cycle through enough of them hence why a fair amount of them are still BNIB. I don't think BNIB is a good indication that a seller is a flipper. I have never sold a knife on BST but if one day, financial circumstances change (touchwood it won't happen) and I need to sell my collection, I certainly do not see myself as a flipper as I never intended to sell my collection in the first place.

Let me just add. I have never purchased a shig/kato at inflated prices so I am not a contributor to the price hike that people call 'market'.


----------



## fujiyama

I can think of at least one chef who buys existent collections of rare knives and then flips them on us for a profit. Often times offering a custom handle, but other times just selling for a mark up because the knife isn't available elsewhere. I think it's a classic case of double standards. 




Andreu said:


> With all do respect, Craig I am now a bit concern. I am concern because I had acquired a BNIB Shigefusa Kitaeji from another member to whom I respect and will remain nameless. While I have no intention of selling the knife, I will use it as an example.
> 
> If for some reason this BNIB knife that I paid over $100.00 over retail was not what I had expected and didnt use it nor sharpen it, it is still considered BNIB. If I post it in BST to sell for the same amount that I bought the knife for, which is over your $100.00 threshold, and my description of the knife states BNIB, will you then label me as a flipper unjustly?
> 
> As you can see, it is not that simple. You can quickly jump to conclusion that based on my pricing and description, that I am a flipper without knowing exactly the story behind it. On the other hand, how will you know if the member is telling the truth or just copy my scenario and lie so he can lawfully flip the knife?
> 
> I am not questioning your positioning on this issue nor defending any flippers. I am merely stating my concern.



Great post Andreu.


----------



## labor of love

Gentlemen Gentlemen!
Allow for my retort&#128578;... Which I will offer shortly. Glad were having healthy debate with what I hope includes mutual respect.


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## Andreu

labor of love said:


> Gentlemen Gentlemen!
> Allow for my retort&#128578;... Which I will offer shortly. Glad were having healthy debate with what I hope includes mutual respect.



No debate on my part, my good sir. Just a few concerns and a healthy dose of respect to each KKF members. &#9996;&#65039;&#128512;


----------



## JDA_NC

LucasFur said:


> I dont know guys. You guys with 1000's of posts have invested more time into this community than i have.
> BUT, as soon as you push the flippers away, it will push the buying traffic market to another location. And im very happy with this forum being among the top places for knife purchases. I wish it was THE world wide undisputed top admittedly (might be) . All kato/shig/kono sales will just be held somewhere else. You cant stop them, inevitably the forum runs the risk of being killed like the fora because people purchasing will go somewhere else for their knife inquiries, and information sharing. If we are going the route of stopping flippers, which is a fair idea, please let me and others know so i can start building my reputation on other sites.
> Maybe Taxing them? But then how do you track it? ... bad news all around.



Fair points and to me this kind of touches on the heart of the issue.

I didn't join this forum because it's the top online market place for hard to acquire knives (or even knives in general - I've only purchased one knife from a member here excluding vendors) and it's not why I continue to read it. I'm here because I like geeking out about knives and sharpening them. And so far, to me at least, this has been the best English language source for that. I've read and learned about a lot, even going beyond knives themselves. 

I own a bunch of knives but my collection doesn't happen to contain any Katos, Shigs, Konos (or Burkes, Haburns, Raders etc etc etc). And that's not to say I see a problem with people who love and actively pursue those knives. I would love to try some of them out. I also don't begrude anyone who wants to collect knives for financial/investment, rarity, or bragging reasons. It's not where my interests lie or what my financial situation affords me. But hell, your money is your money. Do what makes you happy.

But I do find the idea sad of this community (not just KKF but knife forums online in general) becoming less about an open, warm, fun, place to share information about knives and instead becoming more of a commercialized, feeding-frenzy for certain knives that are perceived to be "the best."


----------



## labor of love

Andreu said:


> With all do respect, Craig I am now a bit concern. I am concern because I had acquired a BNIB Shigefusa Kitaeji from another member to whom I respect and will remain nameless. While I have no intention of selling the knife, I will use it as an example.
> 
> If for some reason this BNIB knife that I paid over $100.00 over retail was not what I had expected and didnt use it nor sharpen it, it is still considered BNIB. If I post it in BST to sell for the same amount that I bought the knife for, which is over your $100.00 threshold, and my description of the knife states BNIB, will you then label me as a flipper unjustly?
> 
> As you can see, it is not that simple. You can quickly jump to conclusion that based on my pricing and description, that I am a flipper without knowing exactly the story behind it. On the other hand, how will you know if the member is telling the truth or just copy my scenario and lie so he can lawfully flip the knife?
> 
> I am not questioning your positioning on this issue nor defending any flippers. I am merely stating my concern.



So, you bought a knife you wanted...you paid over retail to come into possession of it...and in order to protect its resale value you havent used it. If you decide this knife isnt right for you youre bummed out at the idea that you cannot resale the knife for what you paid for it here(hypothetically speaking).
Youre not a flipper, just a guy that bought a knife off a flipper...or a guy that bought a knife off a guy who bought a knife off a guy that bought a knife off another guy that was a flipper.
I get it. I understand. But I dont want BST to turn into a speculative market where were always buying and trading based on future returns. This reality is best left to eBay or cktg or some other place.
Your investment is good. You will not have a problem reselling it privately here or publicly somewhere else. 
This forum and its BST ultimately shouldnt be a representation of a speculative market but instead should take on the spirit of a high end flea market.


----------



## panda

why would you buy a knife above retail if you had no intention of using it? collectors ruin it for the rest of us who actually use these things, you guys are annoying.


----------



## Gregmega

Amen


----------



## Andreu

panda said:


> why would you buy a knife above retail if you had no intention of using it? collectors ruin it for the rest of us who actually use these things, you guys are annoying.



I cannot speak for everyone here but believe it or not, all the knives that I bought, whether below retail or above retail, were intended to be used. Its a different story if you buy a knife and when you recieved it, you know its not for you. I see some knives for sale that says catch and release. Maybe you can enlighten me on that term.



panda said:


> you guys are annoying.



And you think with this type of comment doesnt ruin this community? And here I am thinking that this is supposed to be a close knitted community.


----------



## DamageInc

Yeah guys stop ruining the community by announcing your annoyances. This is a friendly family forum.


----------



## Andreu

labor of love said:


> So, you bought a knife you wanted...you paid over retail to come into possession of it...and in order to protect its resale value you havent used it. If you decide this knife isnt right for you youre bummed out at the idea that you cannot resale the knife for what you paid for it here(hypothetically speaking).
> Youre not a flipper, just a guy that bought a knife off a flipper...or a guy that bought a knife off a guy who bought a knife off a guy that bought a knife off another guy that was a flipper.
> I get it. I understand. But I dont want BST to turn into a speculative market where were always buying and trading based on future returns. This reality is best left to eBay or cktg or some other place.
> Your investment is good. You will not have a problem reselling it privately here or publicly somewhere else.
> This forum and its BST ultimately shouldnt be a representation of a speculative market but instead should take on the spirit of a high end flea market.



Thanks for replying to my comment, Craig. I just wanted to state my concerns. 

Also, I dont buy knives based on future returns. I buy knives with the intention of using them regarless of the price. I even made a comment on a previous post where the OP stated that he bought a knife and couldnt use it because it was beautiful and using it will ruin the purpose of the knife. I made a respectful comment stating that I thought the original intended purpose of a knife is to cut things.

Im fairly new here but with other members being here for a while now, why has this been alowed in the first place and why has this been allowed to continue if this was really a concern? Why just now? Why is it that some respected and long time known members were allowed to buy/sell knives at above retail price unmolested while new or fairly new members are being targeted by saying ruining it for everybody?

I reiterate that I am not siding with anyone here. I am speaking for myself only. Not as a flipper, but as a concerned member.


----------



## chinacats

Andreu said:


> I cannot speak for everyone here but believe it or not, all the knives that I bought, whether below retail or above retail, were intended to be used. Its a different story if you buy a knife and when you recieved it, you know its not for you. I see some knives for sale that says catch and release. Maybe you can enlighten me on that term.



I bought a ks recently as a catch and release...I wanted to see how different the new ones were from the old ones... sold it for what I had in it after one use...catch and release is fine imo, it's the catch, markup, and release that annoys me.


----------



## Andreu

chinacats said:


> I bought a ks recently as a catch and release...I wanted to see how different the new ones were from the old ones... sold it for what I had in it after one use...catch and release is fine imo, it's the catch, markup, and release that annoys me.



Thank you, sir. I wanted to make sure that I am on the same page as most of you. 

But that brings me back to my concern. Others maybe thinking that some of the members are buying marked up knives for collecting purposes and ruining it for everybody. There are members, such as myself, buy marked up knives to give it a try and to find out what the hype is all about. How can one member try a knife if its rare and not readily available through a vendor? Its not that I am supporting these flippers or members who are not flippers but selling knives at a market value. It just so happen to be that the knife that I want to try is available only in BST with a marked up price. I know that I am not alone on this as I had seen other long time member buy knives at a marked up price.

Members here have different opinions on this matter. Some members will choose not to buy a knife because its inflated. Some members will choose to buy a knife only because it is only available through BST and are willing to pay the premium. I have done both. Does this mean Im a collector? No. Does this mean Im ruining it for everybody by buying a marked up knife? My answer is no but others may think otherwise.

If you wont buy a marked up knife, then you know where you stand. But that doesnt mean other members are annoying (not your opinion but someone elses opinion) just because they decide to buy an inflated knife. For all we know, they truly just want to try the knife or had tried it and want a different knife made by the same bladesmith that is only available through BST.

Believe me, I even tried helping other members (not just a couple) look for knives and try to get a better deal regardless whether through a vendor or private party. I could have made some money as a flipper but for the sake of my integrity and for the spirit of helping others within our KKF community, I chose not to.


----------



## Chef Doom

panda said:


> why would you buy a knife above retail if you had no intention of using it? collectors ruin it for the rest of us who actually use these things, you guys are annoying.


For the same reason i go to Gentleman's Clubs with no hope of fornication.


----------



## panda

i go to those purely for entertainment purposes. i end up more enamored with the waitresses than the talent themselves. but i see your point.


----------



## Chef Doom

I knew you would see the light.


----------



## HRC_64

The question is do you go to the strip club
feel entitled to be entertained for free :rofl:


----------



## StonedEdge

HRC_64 said:


> The question is do you go to the strip club
> feel entitled to be entertained for free :rofl:


Usually there's a mandatory coat check and/or drink minimum. Nothing in life is free, not even a peek at some tt's


----------



## Chef Doom

HRC_64 said:


> The question is do you go to the strip club
> feel entitled to be entertained for free :rofl:


I tried to a few times and felt like a cheap jerk lol. The ladies don't get a dime of admission fees or drink minimums. I visit less frequently but bring more money with each visit. No point in going with $40 in your pocket.


----------



## Chef Doom

StonedEdge said:


> Usually there's a mandatory coat check and/or drink minimum. Nothing in life is free, not even a peek at some tt's


 There is all always the nude beach.


----------



## daveb

This has made the rounds and we (mod team) think everyone that's going to comment has. A couple times. The members seem to gravitate towards one of three groups:


1) Leave BST as is. Rationale being: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The "flipper" posts are a small minority of the many posts in bst. Terms like "free market" and "let the buyer beware" get tossed around a lot and while not completely applicable, do have some merit.

2) Make BST wide open as best described in PT's post re "Badger and Blade" Members are free to "call out" over-pricing, flipping, (or anything else that floats their boat) Rationale seems to be: Let the members do their own policing. The mod team likes this approach but recognizes that the difficulty here is that unless it was largely not moderated at all this would place an undue burden on the moderators - checking prices, verifying claims of "profiteering", etc. This also has the potential of turning into a huge sh!t show. Not me thanks.

3) Make BST a one and you're done type sub-forum. No comments. I've asked if it is possible to allow a member to post a knife, then auto close the thread? (We all know the member won't close it himself) and the answer was not with current software. It is also not possible for member to be the only one who can edit so they can update thread as necc. The only way this could be feasible is for mods to close threads after posting and update at members behest. And that ain't happening.

Elements that were part of the decision included: We are not going to spend more time on BST than we already do - it is by far the most resource intensive subforum. We're not going to arbitrate who is a seller with a lower case "s" as opposed to someone who should be a sorta vendor. We're not going to price check back to who sold it for what and when. We're not going to count how many knives a member sold last month to see if they've exceeded some quota.

The mods have determined that the best fit for all concerned is leaving bst the way it is. Anyone meeting entry criteria can post what they will for whatever price they deem reasonable. It is not for other members to comment on price or quality of product. Responses will be limited to questions, favorable experiences with similar knives or "pm sent". Other responses will be deleted without explanation and posters WILL have a 30 day vaca from bst. For those that simply must save the world from an overpriced knife I suggest you drink a big ole glass of S*T*F*U first. 

All that said, the mods also recognize that some abuse of the spirit / intent of bst may take place from time to time. Reporting a post is one form of relief available - be sure to include all pertinent info and supporting links. And I don't care (speaking for myself here) if a thread based on "Flipper alert" is started and updated - but not within BST. (Of course civility would be a requirement.)

Hope everyone understands how we got to this decision. I've no intention to argue it further but did want to explain it.

Thanks to all that contributed to this thread. Except StonedEdge.

Cheers.


----------



## brainsausage

Stonededge. Hah. I gettit.


----------



## Anton

^thanks for putting up with us, mods. 

Glad this is done for now


----------



## Gregmega

Aaaahhh come on, stonedge has a valid POV... I found the glib and thoughtless commentary as a real window into the other side as rather illuminating, and roundly flat. B for participation.


----------



## labor of love

Out of curiosity, would it be acceptable for a member to lock their own BST thread voluntarily if they would prefer not to have comments?


----------



## Matus

Works for me. I did not expect that any complicated policing to be applicable as it would be very resources heavy and would still probably yield more discontent than the current situation. Enouradging users to report BST threads if the flipping gets unbearable should be sufficient measure. I am curious how many I going to have the gut to point fingers in a 'Flipper alert' thread though 

BTW, I do not think that locking a BST thread is such a great idea as it does not allow relevant questions to be asked - it is quite common that a potential buyer wants to ask about some aspects of the knife (more detailed measurements or such).


----------



## Nemo

The "polite flipper alert" thread is perhaps not a bad solution to this problem given the difficulty that Dave has outlined with the other options. Or maybe it should be called "is this a flip?"


----------



## daveb

labor of love said:


> Out of curiosity, would it be acceptable for a member to lock their own BST thread voluntarily if they would prefer not to have comments?



I think the OP can lock their own bst thread at any time but will defer to BK for the final answer.


----------



## bkultra

daveb said:


> I think the OP can lock their own bst thread at any time but will defer to BK for the final answer.



Yes the OP can lock their own thread at any time, if they so wish. They can do it by checking the "close this thread" when they post or when making a new post.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

Matus said:


> BTW, I do not think that locking a BST thread is such a great idea as it does not allow relevant questions to be asked - it is quite common that a potential buyer wants to ask about some aspects of the knife (more detailed measurements or such).



That can be handled via PM.


----------



## toddnmd

Pensacola Tiger said:


> That can be handled via PM.



I agree with Matus. Yes, it can be handled by PM, but it makes more sense to keep the thread open and add additional information. If someone asks for a particular specification, or wants an additional photo, it makes the most sense for the seller to add that in the thread. 

And bumps and price drops can't happen in a locked thread. Given that the decision was made to continue with the current rules, there's very little need to lock a thread until the sale is complete.


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## Christian1

Whenever I sell something for good price on a forum I usually try to make sure item goes to good home. Although not always easy to tell if someone who is going to flip item when selling


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## Chef Doom

Dave, you should have avoided the long post and took the Starbucks approach.

"We are currently reviewing the situation"

And then actively never referencing any policing regarding BST ever again.


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## daveb

Ha! I loathe Starbucks.


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## Miles

BST is a forum to facilitate personal sales and purchases. It isn't a forum to conduct business. Anyone showing up with a pile of brand new knives which were obviously purchased with resale in mind is certainly violating the spirit of the forum. If you're a dealer you shouldn't be selling on BST. I think we all generally can recognize when someone is using BST in a way that doesn't fit with the mission of the forum. I've noticed at least one instance where someone has set up a virtual booth at the BST swap meet. It bothered me and still does. I don't begrudge anyone the opportunity to make a profit if they have something particularly desirable, but if you're operating a business then you shouldn't be doing it on BST. Just my $.02...


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## daveb

No disagreement here. If you see such a thing report it. For rocks as well.


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## swarth

Bringing negotiations out of PMs will help. Knowing what stuff actually sells for keeps the fishing in check. This has worked in a couple other non-knife hobbyist forums I occasionally participate on.


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## Neko

This is a rare hobby - if you can purchase something thoughtfully, use it with reasonable care, then you won't lose money. If users can buy and sell knifes for more than they paid, all the power to them. 

If you purchase something with the intent of just flipping it, then that ain't a hobby - its a business. Maybe flippers should pay a listing fee.

irate1:


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## ptolemy

Great discussion 

A short story - about 20 years ago, I played a lot of diablo 2 and sold virtual items on ebay. Many sold for $50-200 range. This one time, I had a message via ebay asking if I can end auction early on this rare item I spend few weeks trading for to get it. I had bid to around $100-120 for it and the person offered me $400. He said that he needed a gift for his 12 year old son and this would be perfect. I agreed, and he paid me and I gave him the item. For the next 5 years I told this story to many people as a point to illustrate that dad's stupidity - paying $400 for a virtual item that 6 month later became useless as company released better items for free .

20 years later - now. I work many hours and I play diablo 3 for a bit and my friends have 500x more time in it than me. Right now, I would pay $500 to blizzard to get me on the same level as them, because when I do get free time, I want to play with them at max level. Sadly, right now, I cannot, because for them, I became a liability (low level, not doing enough damage). So, what does it say about me from 20 years ago and now. I am a hypocrite? Perhaps, or maybe I am older and wiser and are willing to pay for things that take time to acquire, even if it's overpriced.

To take a devil's advocate side (and to be clear, I actually never seen any case of flippers here myself, until it was pointed out, but I also admit, I am kinda oblivious to it). About 10-15 years (about 5-8 years after diablo 2) I what some may claim is that I used to buy watches to flip. Is it flipping? I didn't think so but I'll let you decide for the sake of this discussion. I would sit on yahoo.jp auctions sometimes for hrs per day (between writing my school papers) and look for watches to buy to bring to USA to flip. There was no sniping, all manual bid and I paid 8% fee to a proxy. From my part it required 3 elements: 1 knowledge of the watch and the market. 2 spending time figuring out the auction/translation/condition of the watch (they all were used) 3. taking the risk and paying intermediary fees + waiting for month to get it, with no recourse if I got was a dud/misrepresented piece and then trying to sell. 

Why did I do so? Well, I was a student then, not a lot of spare cash and those few years allowed me to learn/have 3 things: 1. watches/brand I was familiar with. 2 - be able to afford 1-2 watches, I would otherwise not let myself buy, 3 bring certain watches to USA that other people would not have otherwise gotten it. The process was long and risky and due to weak yen then, I probably made 20-25% on resale after all fees. I wonder if this audience thinks what I did was flipping?

Now, to the situation at hand here. I did see a link earlier of someone having multiple kato's and shigefusa's and such and it does seem like their profit around 15-20% if they sell. There is 1 other difference I suppose - my risk and commitment was much greater than this person's (is it fair to give someone a pass who had more risk or dedicated time? maybe I was inefficient at my end), who probably just spend time waiting for them to become available vs me researching, buying used, etc... With that in mind, if someone who works 60+hrs a week and comes home and last thing he or she want to do in to turn on the computer, then on a weekend see a knife they wanted $100-150 more than it's usual going price, I personally see no issue with them buying it. Should the flipper be rewarded for being there on time to buy and then to reseller, thus depleting the inventory from others who genuine want the knife, thus benefiting from the scarce resource? That's a tough question - I dont have the answer, but my gut saying is, unless it becomes a pattern for that person, I think first few should be OK. 

I actually own a DT knife that I bought directly from DT and have it for a year now, and never used it. I didn't buy it to flip but I know I can prob make $100 on it easily. I bought it because if I were to have 1 $500 knife, that would be it. I have shown it to several of my friends and we compared it to kramers and others and all told me 1 thing: it's SO much lighter and thinner and just looks nicer (profile). Mind you it's his basic model ITK with basic handle... Imagine if they seen his higher end ones. 

I also tend to buy random cookware stuff just because I don't know enough about it and it's so hard to learn as I don't have a professional kitchen available or friends who have many of the higher end equipment at home. Last few month I tried to play with cast iron enamel cookware as many felt it didn't impact on tomato sauce flavors as most other surfaces did. I played with cutting boards, trying to find the perfect one. I have a 18x24 one before but it was way too big for me. I also had 12" square one from original Boardsmith but it was too small. I think I found a perfect one now, but alas I decided to keep my rubber ones. I got a 24" carving one, but then I foolishly didn't realize how big and heavy it is (it's a beast). That's how I learn, often by trying and buying and then obviously selling to try and recoup some of my investment. I have few carbon skillets and I prefer my old cast iron and so on. 

I want to end this with a thought - I think this forum for the most part is fairly small and pretty tight, so I think we can police ourselves (for the most part). I comment from an oldschooler in BTS thread can not only be helpful to potential buyer and seller, but also to produce some history behind the knife (if it exist), thus let buyer come it with some clarity. I kinda like the razor forum rules, but I do agree, that they can be hard to implement.


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## zetieum

Very good decision to leave it like that: there was not other practical choices. 
Although I will remain pissed when I see people making profit (ie flipper type) or selling overpriced crap on BST. I do not believe in the "free market" thing.


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## panda

i cant believe people pay not just chump change but large sums for 'virtual items'. that's like paying $100 to watch a single exclusive pornhub video. insanity.


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## Anton

panda said:


> i cant believe people pay not just chump change but large sums for 'virtual items'. that's like paying $100 to watch a single exclusive pornhub video. insanity.



crazy mofos out there. With an easy credit card


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## panda

actually, i would pay $5 for a print out of a really good meme. but its still physical media since its a print, not frigging 'virtual item' lol


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## ptolemy

panda said:


> i cant believe people pay not just chump change but large sums for 'virtual items'. that's like paying $100 to watch a single exclusive pornhub video. insanity.



I am glad I wasn't aware of this until I read it, lol. But, I imagine it's same thing as that cage movie... 8mm... same principle, I guess... as long as it's legal, to each his/her own 

But, ya, after a long week, if that's what lets you relax and have fun, it's the same as going out to a local bar an dropping $50-100 on drinks/food...


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## inzite

ahh, there is another post about flippers (didn't see it as i just clicked the link from the main page), i think i meant to post it here but anyhow...

People should be required to sign a form (with scan of ID) and provide employment information that they work in a pro environment and/or provide photos of their vast collection that they are collectors and not flippers, this prevent flippers from participating in lotteries.

Also I think the mods should expand the mod team to constantly monitor online stores for prices for different knives/products and include them in a sticky post here so everyone can see the price of the product more or less live - this way folks can identify flippers vs non flippers. Also would be cool if we can have the vendors here constantly supply the knives in demand to the mods and admins and they list them in BST at same vendor prices (there should be a tracking system as to who has bought one recently vs one who has not, we should beef up the forum sign up to include IDs required to avoid dupe accounts as well). This way folks don't need to risk buying from a mystery reseller and possible flipper prices.


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## harlock0083

inzite said:


> ahh, there is another post about flippers (didn't see it as i just clicked the link from the main page), i think i meant to post it here but anyhow...
> 
> People should be required to sign a form (with scan of ID) and provide employment information that they work in a pro environment and/or provide photos of their vast collection that they are collectors and not flippers, this prevent flippers from participating in lotteries.
> 
> Also I think the mods should expand the mod team to constantly monitor online stores for prices for different knives/products and include them in a sticky post here so everyone can see the price of the product more or less live - this way folks can identify flippers vs non flippers. Also would be cool if we can have the vendors here constantly supply the knives in demand to the mods and admins and they list them in BST at same vendor prices (there should be a tracking system as to who has bought one recently vs one who has not, we should beef up the forum sign up to include IDs required to avoid dupe accounts as well). This way folks don't need to risk buying from a mystery reseller and possible flipper prices.



That's nuts...


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## Pensacola Tiger

harlock0083 said:


> That's nuts...



I assumed it was just sarcasm, or a post written while under the influence (PWI).


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## harlock0083

Pensacola Tiger said:


> I assumed it was just sarcasm, or a post written while under the influence (PWI).



I thought so too, but pretty much the same thing was posted in the "flipper warning" thread. I guess I need what he's drinking.


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## swarth

Dudes willing to pay is why flippers flip. 2K offered up for a Shig yo in BST right now. Them's who need run off.


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## Panamapeet

harlock0083 said:


> I thought so too, but pretty much the same thing was posted in the "flipper warning" thread. I guess I need what he's drinking.



Its pretty difficult to come up with a new funny act that quickly


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## FunkyLuxury

swarth said:


> Dudes willing to pay is why flippers flip. 2K offered up for a Shig yo in BST right now. Them's who need run off.



It's me posting 2k for a Shig Western. I have been looking for one for over a year now (mostly on IG and reddit). That is more or less the going rate in those markets (I am new here, so not sure what they go for in these walls, but nobody seems to be biting even at 2k). 

Why should I not offer what the market says they are worth?

EDIT: Someone selling a knife that is rarely produced and over a year wait to get even if you know the right people is not really flipping in the general sense of the term. The ones I have been looking at are several years old, that is just appreciation in value given the circumstances.


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## panda

why did you get one in the first place? and how much did you pay for it? if you are listing for a lot more than you got it for then it is absolutely flipping.


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## FunkyLuxury

panda said:


> why did you get one in the first place? and how much did you pay for it? if you are listing for a lot more than you got it for then it is absolutely flipping.



Just an example, one of the people I have been [begging] to sell me one, bought his over three years ago. He is the original owner. He loves the knife, he says he doesn't want to part with it but he is going to think about it because of the high offer. 

That's not flipping at all. He has a knife he has used faithfully for years. He bought it for retail, treated it with love. If he does decide to sell it to me, he is not a flipper, he is making an informed decision based on his want for the knife vs. his want for $2000.00 - that is literally how economies work.

On the flip side (no pun intended), if he listed it for retail right now, it would be gone in a fraction of a minute, people would call him an idiot for doing so, not everyone of course, but they would be thinking it. We all love knives and they are works of art. Art appreciates in value along with supply and demand.


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## Chicagohawkie

FunkyLuxury said:


> It's me posting 2k for a Shig Western. I have been looking for one for over a year now (mostly on IG and reddit). That is more or less the going rate in those markets (I am new here, so not sure what they go for in these walls, but nobody seems to be biting even at 2k).
> 
> Why should I not offer what the market says they are worth?
> 
> EDIT: Someone selling a knife that is rarely produced and over a year wait to get even if you know the right people is not really flipping in the general sense of the term. The ones I have been looking at are several years old, that is just appreciation in value given the circumstances.



You are spot on my friend. This type of fuzzy logic isnt much understood around here.


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## Chicagohawkie

FunkyLuxury said:


> Just an example, one of the people I have been [begging] to sell me one, bought his over three years ago. He is the original owner. He loves the knife, he says he doesn't want to part with it but he is going to think about it because of the high offer.
> 
> That's not flipping at all. He has a knife he has used faithfully for years. He bought it for retail, treated it with love. If he does decide to sell it to me, he is not a flipper, he is making an informed decision based on his want for the knife vs. his want for $2000.00 - that is literally how economies work.
> 
> On the flip side (no pun intended), if he listed it for retail right now, it would be gone in a fraction of a minute, people would call him an idiot for doing so, not everyone of course, but they would be thinking it. We all love knives and they are works of art. Art appreciates in value along with supply and demand.




I wouldnt get caught up in this convo. Trust me it aint worth your time or aggravation.


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## FunkyLuxury

Chicagohawkie said:


> I wouldnt get caught up in this convo. Trust me it aint worth your time or aggravation.



Haha thanks man, but I like to hear other peoples' perspectives as well. I am much more active in the Wristwatch world, and this goes on there as well. There are great points on both sides of the discussion and flippers are definitely a real thing. I was just defending my $2000.00 offer (I don't think I should have to), particularly because I am new here. Nothing about my offer is fueling flipping in my opinion, in this particular case. 

I try not to let my hobbies aggravate me, plenty of time for that at work!


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## Chicagohawkie

FunkyLuxury said:


> Haha thanks man, but I like to hear other peoples' perspectives as well. I am much more active in the Wristwatch world, and this goes on there as well. There are great points on both sides of the discussion and flippers are definitely a real thing. I was just defending my $2000.00 offer (I don't think I should have to), particularly because I am new here. Nothing about my offer is fueling flipping in my opinion, in this particular case.
> 
> I try not to let my hobbies aggravate me, plenty of time for that at work!




I hear ya! Good luck on your search. Your looking for a hard to find unicorn. Theyre out there, but its what your willing to pay.


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## FunkyLuxury

Chicagohawkie said:


> I hear ya! Good luck on your search. Your looking for a hard to find unicorn. Theyre out there, but its what your willing to pay.



Haha thanks again, my will is strong for this one. Wait until my wife finds out I paid $300.00 for a Shig Yo, if she only knew... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


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## chinacats

FunkyLuxury said:


> It's me posting 2k for a Shig Western. I have been looking for one for over a year now (mostly on IG and reddit). That is more or less the going rate in those markets (I am new here, so not sure what they go for in these walls, but nobody seems to be biting even at 2k).
> 
> Why should I not offer what the market says they are worth?
> 
> EDIT: Someone selling a knife that is rarely produced and over a year wait to get even if you know the right people is not really flipping in the general sense of the term. The ones I have been looking at are several years old, that is just appreciation in value given the circumstances.



Because this isn't reddit...it's a community of somewhat like minded individuals...money kind of ruins that vibe. Plus the fact that if you're willing to pay 2k for one, you've obviously not used one...


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## FunkyLuxury

chinacats said:


> Because this isn't reddit...it's a community of somewhat like minded individuals...money kind of ruins that vibe. Plus the fact that if you're willing to pay 2k for one, you've obviously not used one...



I take your point, but if we are a collective of the nerdiest knife enthusiasts, I would argue that we are also the collective of people that appreciate these knives more than any other group. We have assigned the value, collectively.

I tend to get salty when people assume things about me, but I totally get your point. I have, however, owned and used several Shigs over the years, never had a Western one though. I am passionate about my knives, want one in my collection and am willing to pay for it. I have exhausted other means to get one, so at this point I am going to throw money at my "problem".

If I could pay Iizuka-San directly I would in a heartbeat because I think he deserves the cash himself. Hell, I'd pay even more, so that I know it was made for me, and wait a year for it just to know I have one coming. Hook me up with his PayPal if you have it


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## Dave Martell

I hate to say it but maybe Shigs are worth more than 2k if a 2k offer doesn't get it done.

Personally, I'd sell a Shig for $2k in a nano-second! :wink:


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## FunkyLuxury

You're a legend, mate!


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## McMan

A ticket from Ontario to Tokyo is $900. It may well be more economical to fly to Japan to buy this Shig than to throw money at the problem here...


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## dwalker

Wait til you pay 2k and then realize..................nevermind.


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## FunkyLuxury

McMan said:


> A ticket from Ontario to Tokyo is $900. It may well be more economical to fly to Japan to buy this Shig than to throw money at the problem here...


From what I have read, it is not possible to buy a Yo-handled Shig in person. I have friends in Japan looking around


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## labor of love

FunkyLuxury said:


> From what I have read, it is not possible to buy a Yo-handled Shig in person. I have friends in Japan looking around



You have to know the secret password though.


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## daveb

If a Shig suji will fetch 2K, I'll be flipping like Mary Lou Retton :cool2:


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## HRC_64

labor of love said:


> You have to know the secret password though.



an australian ?


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## Mute-on

HRC_64 said:


> an australian ?



We all have ours already


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## labor of love

Mute-on said:


> We all have ours already



Haha. Thats so true!


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## Dave Martell

daveb said:


> If a Shig suji will fetch 2K, I'll be flipping like Mary Lou Retton :cool2:




:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## Kingkor

Probably not the right friends :rofl2:


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## Badgertooth

Ok. Just checking weve got a tight enough lid on the demand side of the problem thats causing this whole ruckus:


1. Thou shalt have only enough knives to qualify as a rounded working set. Anything in excess thereof is a bourgeois frippery like shoes and universal suffrage. Transgressors shall be paraded naked through Kings Landing with bilge water and rotten scraps thrown at them and shamed with taunts of 
COLLECTOR!!
COLLECTOR!!


2. Thou shalt desire a knife only in an amount deemed appropriate by the council of the like-minded.


Because I wouldnt want this thread to get silly.


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## K813zra

Mute-on said:


> We all have ours already



I have three.


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## panda

collectors annoy the piss out of me, they ruin it for the rest of us without huge budgets cause they are willing to pay way above market for anything rare. this is the reason people are even able to flip knives in the first place. but this holds true for anything where there are collectors.

also, this is the most civil discussion i have seen with multiple participants, guess its a hot topic lol


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## daveb

Aren't you supposed to be eating Ramen?


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## panda

next week, i shall post pics


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## WildBoar

panda said:


> collectors annoy the piss out of me, they ruin it for the rest of us without huge budgets cause they are willing to pay way above market for anything rare.


Pffft! I buy the stuff you can't afford anyway


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## Chicagohawkie

I’m mad at all the Ferrari GTO owners. I think everyone should have one!


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## tgfencer

Badgertooth said:


> 2. Thou shalt desire a knife only in an amount deemed appropriate by the council of the like-minded.



New forum motto right there! Somebody pump out some t-shirts and bumper-stickers. 




panda said:


> collectors annoy the piss out of me, they ruin it for the rest of us without huge budgets cause they are willing to pay way above market for anything rare.



Personally, I dislike everyone who makes more money than me. And as a farmer/self-employed editor, that means almost literally everybody. 

"WTT- Looking for Shig Kitaeji 300mm Yo-handled Gyuto, Offering Piglet of your choice, shipped priority." 

Anybody think this would work....?


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## WildBoar

Hmmm, maybe if you wait until the piglet grows a bit and offer it at that point... (bundled into freezer-friendly packages)


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## Barmoley

If it wasn't for the collectors, we wouldn't have the choices we have today. If it was all performance and need based, how many knives and choices do you really need. The reason we have so many makers, artists, etc is because of the collectors not the professionals in the industry. Also, you can't pay way above market for something rare, if it is truly rare there is no market and the price is whatever someone is willing to pay for it. If it is somewhat rare, then the market is what it is, because there are enough people that pay the price. It might not be the price I can or want to pay, but that doesn't make it overpriced, just overpriced for me


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## WildBoar

Panda, another way of looking at this is to think of knives like cars. Nothing worse then, say, Honda S2000s being snapped up by people who do not drive them on the track, while many who can drive really well on the track cannot afford to buy one


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## Xenif

tgfencer said:


> New forum motto right there! Somebody pump out some t-shirts and bumper-stickers.



Make sure you do this: 
KKF TShirt #000, signed by a bunch of our fav smiths. One of a kind, collectors item, framed behind glass, no one would seriously wear it, priceless. 

#001-10 Premium special edition, replica of #000, super rare, comes in a Kiri box. Mostly for display purposes: $299 

#11-100 Special edition, Numbered: $99 

Regular edition, no signature, $29


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## jaybett

Isn't this a forum for people who collect high end kitchen knifes? 

Jay​


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## labor of love

I think everyone needs to be more polite to Mr. Panda, he’s always a gentleman and super respectful.


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## labor of love

All the rare stuff blows anyway. Except for Damascus v2 and wh2 Yoshikanes.


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## tgfencer

labor of love said:


> I think everyone needs to be more polite to Mr. Panda, he’s always a gentleman and super respectful.



I don't think anyone was intending on being disrespectful. Certainly it wasn't the case for me. I simply think people are being humorous because the situation is one of endless debate and largely zero progress one way or the other.


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## Jville

I'm sensing there was a little sarcasm in his comment


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## Jville

tgfencer said:


> I don't think anyone was intending on being disrespectful. Certainly it wasn't the case for me. I simply think people are being humorous because the situation is one of endless debate and largely zero progress one way or the other.





Jville said:


> I'm sensing there was a little sarcasm in his comment


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## panda

dave, my next goal is to obtain a 1st gen nsx hopefully in black to match my s2k.


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## WildBoar




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## brainsausage

Barmoley said:


> If it wasn't for the collectors, we wouldn't have the choices we have today. If it was all performance and need based, how many knives and choices do you really need. The reason we have so many makers, artists, etc is because of the collectors not the professionals in the industry. Also, you can't pay way above market for something rare, if it is truly rare there is no market and the price is whatever someone is willing to pay for it. If it is somewhat rare, then the market is what it is, because there are enough people that pay the price. It might not be the price I can or want to pay, but that doesn't make it overpriced, just overpriced for me



I’d highly disagree with your collectors vs pros stance. It’s quite the opposite. Without the pros there’s be no need for the fine tuned instruments available. Now if we’re talking fit and finish, yes I’d agree. This market doesn’t exist as it stands now without the pros using these tools day in and day out. Period. The market isn’t that simple. There’s many factors that come into play beyond rareness. Perceived value being a big one.


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## Matus

I tend to agree with Brainsausage. On top what he said - collecting is first and foremost about possession it does not create any value and is not necessarily centered around quality of the items being collected. Rarity does play a role. Collectors will notice given item usually after it starts to become ‘desirable’ and hyped.


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## Barmoley

I am not saying that pros are not important. I would guess that most pros that are on these forums are also collectors whether they admit it to themselves or not. Once you have more than a few knives of the same type and size you are a collector. I am simply pointing out that without collectors there would not be all the choices and makers we have today. These forums would likely not exist if the membership included only pro cooks. Of course collectors increase the average prices of things because they increase the demand for them, but this also allows more makers to come in and sell their creations. Do you honestly think that we would have the number of makers we have if the market was only composed of pros?

Stepping away from knives, many markets would not exist if it wasn't for the collectors. Mechanical watch market, classic car market, and many others.

As far as not creating value, I would disagree. Collectors don't just buy rare or hyped objects to hold on to and not use. They buy all sorts of things and buy a lot of them and in that they create value. They are passionate about whatever it is they are collecting, they spend time and money researching the smallest details and differences, finding new examples. To take a recently "hyped" maker as an example, would Mazaki be able to sell as many knives as he did if only pros bought his knives?


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