# Gesshin Kagero and Masamoto VG



## fergie (Mar 17, 2014)

These came in today.. first 2 of the 5 I ordered. look for pics and my synopsis/feedback coming probably this evening !!

The Hiromoto, Sakai and the tojiro will all be here by Wed. So ill have the complete analysis and the Winner then


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## MowgFace (Mar 17, 2014)

Good luck on your testing! Cant wait to hear the results!

Mowgs


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## fergie (Mar 17, 2014)

MowgFace said:


> Good luck on your testing! Cant wait to hear the results!
> 
> Mowgs



Ok here we go.. Three came in.. Hiromoto, masamoto and Gesshin

Hiromoto:
Very comfortable handle..medium size
Overall weight feels medium/light and the balance is toward the handle
very even symmetric blade profile
Choil feel is on the harsh side with little comfort and the butt of the blade angles toward you so you can knick yourself.
Blade to bolster transition quality is lacking. visible marks which look like weld marks.

Masamoto:

Larger handle than Hiromoto that has a much better feel, if you like large handles or have larger hands this handle is spectacular(I don't have large hands)
Overall weight is heavy but has Absolutely perfect balance.
Much more comfortable choil and back of blade is 90 degrees to handle.
Significantly better Fit/finish then Hiro.. however, the tang does have a large knick at butt of handle (see pic later)
Blade profile is flatter from mid blade to tip

Gesshin Kagero.

A straight up work of art.. I said wow when I opened the awesome padded case.
Overall weight feels medium..but balance is much more toward the blade.
by far the smallest handle which is thicker at the bolster and tapers to the back.. A nice touch actually
By far..like not even remotely close.. the most comfortable choil area. Double the space and its rounded. blade butt angles toward you , but the clearance is perfect.
easily the best fit/finish
by far the flattest profile, and least overall blade height.
seems the sharpest on the finger test.

Conclusions.

The hiro has a great handle.. but is completely outclassed in every other respect. it will be going back.

The Masamoto easily has the best balance. it has an unbelievably comfortable handle, even for small hands like myself. If you have large hands, this should be in your top 2 choices. It is easily the heaviest knife. If you like a heavy perfectly balanced knife.. This is it.
fit and finish are top notch. ( Im assuming the knick is a fluke)

The gesshin is hands down the best overall fit/finish and best looking. it has a small handle, but the comfort of the choil area is so far and away superior to the others, that alone compensates for lack of handle comfort. if you like a flatter profile and blade height.. this has it.
It is not as balanced as the masamoto.. if you like to feel the blade weight though, then the gesshin is it.

I have 2 more coming, but if I were to pick now.. it would be an easy win for the gesshin with 50% of that reason being the spectacular feel in the handle to choil transition.

more to follow !!


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## MowgFace (Mar 17, 2014)

Thanks for taking the time to write this up!


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## labor of love (Mar 17, 2014)

So youre not going to compare their performance, i take it? Ive heard very good things about the masamoto vg as a performer. The blade height should be much taller than kagero too, have you figured out a preference for taller knives or shorter knives?


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## fergie (Mar 17, 2014)

im moving this post.. I didn't notice I had it in the wrong spot


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## fergie (Mar 17, 2014)

labor of love said:


> So youre not going to compare their performance, i take it? Ive heard very good things about the masamoto vg as a performer. The blade height should be much taller than kagero too, have you figured out a preference for taller knives or shorter knives?



as far as actually using.. I cant.. then I couldn't return 4 of them. They are all great performers im sure, but if If I love the feel/balance/comfort etc, and have preference for profile, then that knife will perform for me.

And yes, the height is shorter on the kagero, which I prefer as does the wife.. she LOVED the kagero


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## labor of love (Mar 17, 2014)

Based on your criteria for judging knives You may as well not even bother with tojiro or sakai grand chef. I promise neither will be as comfortable in the choil area, which seems to be more important to you over handle, grind, steel, etc....


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Mar 18, 2014)

fergie said:


> as far as actually using.. I cant.. then I couldn't return 4 of them. They are all great performers im sure, but if If I love the feel/balance/comfort etc, and have preference for profile, then that knife will perform for me.



Why can't you actually cuts food with your knives? How does it affects returning? I'm asking just because I really don't understand how a knife can be different after cutting a few carrots and onions. The all stainless. And you can clean them after cutting, so that they would be exactly as new.

Choosing a knife is a personal thing of course, but I find it really hard to justify your craters. While it's nice to have good fit and finish, IMHO it's the cutting ability that really differentiates good knife from so-so knife. And I can't believe it you aren't really cutting with your new knives to choose the best performer


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## ThEoRy (Mar 18, 2014)

If you use the knife, it is no longer new and can not be sold as such. Cut a few onions and you've degraded the edge. We have a saying here, "break it you bought it". 

Even if it is unused I still feel this creates more work for the vendor. Now they have to recieve the package, inspect it, clean it up, repackage it etc. This is assuming nothing happens in transit of course. I suspect this is the reason for the 10% restocking fee and the shipping insurance requirement. Don't think these apply? Better check. Both JKI and and ckayteegee have one or both.


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## rodneyat (Mar 18, 2014)

ThEoRy said:


> If you use the knife, it is no longer new and can not be sold as such. Cut a few onions and you've degraded the edge. We have a saying here, "break it you bought it".
> 
> Even if it is unused I still feel this creates more work for the vendor. Now they have to recieve the package, inspect it, clean it up, repackage it etc. This is assuming nothing happens in transit of course. I suspect this is the reason for the 10% restocking fee and the shipping insurance requirement. Don't think these apply? Better check. Both JKI and and ckayteegee have one or both.



That's definitely JCK's policy. Which is where I am assuming the Hiromoto AS came from. They will charge a restocking fee for sure and only if it is new and unused. That said, it is a well documented that the handles on the Hiromoto AS line tend to be inconsistent. But, with a little "elbow grease" ie: sanding. They are fine. If the one you have is really bad. Don't hesitate to send Koki an email. He will definitely resolve any issues. His customer service is top notch. I had an issue with another knife I received from them (not a Hiromoto AS) and he took it back without any issues and sent me a new knife.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Mar 19, 2014)

ThEoRy said:


> If you use the knife, it is no longer new and can not be sold as such. Cut a few onions and you've degraded the edge. We have a saying here, "break it you bought it".



Just to be sure we understand each other properly I'll express my point in more details.

First, my logic: knife is a tool which purpose is to cut things. So when I buy a new knife I'd expect it to cut things. There's no other way to test knife other cut something with it. 

Using this logic, when I buy knew knife and open package, I'd first inspect fit and finish and so on. If I'm satisfied with how it looks  I'll try cutting some food with it. I don't understand how could I degrade knife edge by cutting few tomatoes or apples. If knife edge really degrades after such a simple test I'll return knife because it's quality just sucks. 

While making those cutting tests I do make sure I'm accurate enough, so that I wouldn't put scratches or chips on the edge. If I'm satisfied with knife, I'll keep it. If I'm not satisfied with it  I'll decide if I can sharpen/tune edge myself and keep it, or return immediately. If I happen to return it immediately, I'll clean it and make sure it looks exactly like new. There's NO way you could tell differences between OOTB knife and the knife that I used to cut some food other then by using microscope (even then it's a gamble).

In Russia we have rules which allow us to return purchase back to shop even after some use (in some situations I could use purchase up to 2 weeks before returning it). Of course those rules wouldn't apply for online purchases, but I remembered them just to help you understand why I'm sure I have full right to put my purchase under real world test (in case of knife  cutting test).

So with all my knives purchases I'll stick to that behavior: cutting food is a normal test that can't affect possible return (again, ensuring that I knife looks like OOTB). 

Different online shops have different return policies and I'm fine with it. 
So far I've returned knife only once, when ebay seller sent me completely different knife. And even in this case I still cut some food out of pure curiosity with it before sending back. Carefully cleaned and packed knife before returning it and everyone went happy in the end.

Just my 2 cents.


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## rodneyat (Mar 19, 2014)

A carbon knife or one with a carbon core. Like the Hiromoto AS that the OP is looking at will discolor as soon you cut any vegetable with it.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Mar 19, 2014)

rodneyat said:


> A carbon knife or one with a carbon core. Like the Hiromoto AS that the OP is looking at will discolor as soon you cut any vegetable with it.


Do you mean it could be a problem to clean blade? 
Btw my Watanabe is build similar to Hiro AS: carbon core with stainless clad. No discoloring of edge even with daily use.


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## JBroida (Mar 19, 2014)

FWIW, i would not have accepted a used knife in a return. Consider this... we sell new knives. I do not have any outlet on my website for used knives. My customers have the reasonable expectation that they are paying for new knives when buying things from us. Most, if not all, would be disheartened to hear that the "new" knife they just bought had actually be used by one or more customers before making its way to them. The use of a knife decreases the value of said knife much in the same way driving a new car off the lot after purchasing does (which i know is not the best example, as people get to test drive cars before buying... but often, the car they test and the one they buy are not the same).

Also, being set up in such a way that would allow customers to buy, test, and possibly return all of our products would be amazingly expensive and time consuming for us.


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## jamaster14 (Mar 19, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Just to be sure we understand each other properly I'll express my point in more details.
> 
> First, my logic: knife is a tool which purpose is to cut things. So when I buy a new knife I'd expect it to cut things. There's no other way to test knife other cut something with it.
> 
> ...



I have to agree with this. thats like buying a car, starting it up to drive it, have the engine not work and then having the dealership tell you they wont take it back cause its no longer new now that you drove it.

a knifes job is to cut, if ootb it immediately doesnt cut right, then it should be able to be returned as new.


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## jamaster14 (Mar 19, 2014)

JBroida said:


> FWIW, i would not have accepted a used knife in a return. Consider this... we sell new knives. I do not have any outlet on my website for used knives. My customers have the reasonable expectation that they are paying for new knives when buying things from us. Most, if not all, would be disheartened to hear that the "new" knife they just bought had actually be used by one or more customers before making its way to them. The use of a knife decreases the value of said knife much in the same way driving a new car off the lot after purchasing does (which i know is not the best example, as people get to test drive cars before buying... but often, the car they test and the one they buy are not the same).
> 
> Also, being set up in such a way that would allow customers to buy, test, and possibly return all of our products would be amazingly expensive and time consuming for us.



i like the car ana;ogy and think it fits... if the customer drove off the lot, and 10 feet down the road the engine failed, i would think you would be responsible for taking it back.... where as if the customer drove the 25 miles, and simply didnt like it, then that is on the customer.

if a knife is damaged out of the box, or from the initial cut, id think that would need to be taken back? if after using it for prep and it just isnt liked, thats different


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Mar 19, 2014)

JBroida said:


> FWIW, i would not have accepted a used knife in a return.



I'm was probably surprisingly unclear Jon my point was: if I were to buy a knife from you, test it and for some reasons decide to return it, you'd receive it in "like new" condition. If there are any differences after cutting few fruits, they would virtually undetectable. 

What makes a knife a new knife? Only the fact that you've wrapped and sold it? Some guys in Japan may have cut with it, how can you tell? 
Some makers would test how well their knives cut prior to selling them. Does that makes their knives less new? On any knives shows I've visited users could touch and test knives and still buy them as new. So what really makes a knife a new knife?

You can't buy a car with 0 mileage in Russia. There's ALWAYS some mileage 5, 15, or 150km, never zero. Maybe situation is different in US, I have no idea. Anyway, I haven't yet seen any person who would complain about their car having 15km of mileage when they bought it. I consider knives to be in similar situation. 

I understand why you are having the policy you have, but that your point of view, as a vendor's point of view, which is a bit different from mine (as a consumer).


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## JBroida (Mar 19, 2014)

if there's a defect... sure. No problem. . What we were talking about here would be akin to you buying 5 cars, driving each for a week, and then returning the non-defective cars for a full refund as if they were now. Also, most japanese knives arent set up to be 100% sharp ootb, so testing cutting also means testing sharpening... and a knife that has been sharpened is most assuredly not new any more. Again, if there's something wrong with the knife, thats a whole different story, but that was not the case here.


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## panda (Mar 20, 2014)

buy 5, test drive in every way, then sell on BST. best way if you ask me. you would not lose much value selling here unless you seriously mess up the knife/s.


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 20, 2014)

panda said:


> buy 5, test drive in every way, then sell on BST. best way if you ask me. you would not lose much value selling here unless you seriously mess up the knife/s.



lus1:

I can see both sides of this. A knifes job is to cut, if it doesn't meet your expectations then you're left with an expensive piece of equipment you're not going to use because it's non returnable. That being said, a new knife means it's not been used by another person, once it's been through a performance test it then becomes used. Granted, a n00b such as myself may not know but as a consumer we have to trust that when we buy something classified as new, we are getting just that. 

It's an expensive quest finding the knife that feels and performs perfectly for you but, I'm very very glad we have a B/S/T that we can either pick up a used knife to test out for a discounted price or we can sell off the ones that didn't make the cut. We may lose a bit of the initial investment but a bigger loss would be the knife just sitting in the drawer unused.


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## Lizzardborn (Mar 20, 2014)

A knife that has been owned is not new. Depending on jurisdiction it could be sold as refurbished or used, but not as new. 

It just shows that there is a demand for service try before you buy. You pay X$ and you receive several loaner knifes that you can play with for a week (or whatever duration). You decide, pull the trigger on the purchase and return the knifes while your shining new arrives. 

There probably will be of any mass produced knife a few in the batch that will be a hard sale. The vendor could use the worst as a loaner - and that knife could see 20 different people for an year. The user gets professionally sharpened knife that shows its full potential. No abuse of return policies and trying to figure out what to do with the refurbished, and if the demand is high enough be on profit from the service. It will be a good way to introduce people to entry and mid range knifes.


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## Matus (Mar 20, 2014)

Just to offer a slightly different point of view: 

Here in EU goods (with some exclusions) that are bought online can be returned within 14 days no-questions-asked - as long as there is no damage to the goods. And yes - the goods can be used. There are goods that with slight use may not show any signs of actually being used (electronics) and there are goods that will. I would expect problems returning jeans that I have wore and washed already. So - this is not a black-or-white policy, but it is there. The logic is that the customer does not really know what he/she is buying. I as a customer expect that the price of the goods reflects the fact that certain fraction of the goods will be returned what causes cost to the seller. For example - buying cloths online - one has no chance to check the real look, material quality or size. I usually send back 80% of what I ordered - most of these do not even get unpacked, those that will are just checked for material and size. After all - that is the same what one would do in a normal shop - try something on and if ti fits and you like the look and material - you buy it. This does not put any usage or damage marks on the goods and the goods after being returned will be sold again. Indeed - these are large companies and this is the hearth of their business model.

Yes - there are people that try to take advantage of such a system because there are goods that can not be put to "new" condition once used (e.g. water bed) or will show clear usage marks once put into use (e.g. tires) so here and then the dispute ends in a court. The regulations on this issue are still being developed.

The example with cars is a bit unfortunate - there one has the option of test driving a car at a dealer and decide whether to buy or not. 

There are few decent knife stores - some of them online only or have just very few stores where the customer would have the chance of actually take the knife in hand - maybe even have a chance to cut with one. So it is a bit of blind purchase. At which point the a bad design or blade profile can be interpreted as defect and be eligible for a return may be a subject of a dispute between buyer and the seller.

But I agree with Jon - a small scale seller would get quickly overloaded (time and financially wise) if he were to accept returns. Since you guys in US do not have a legislation that would force you to do so - you can decide for yourself whether or not a product can be returned and if yes under what conditions. 

If there is a shop that does accepts returns and the customer complies with the conditions - there is no discussion needed whether it is right or wrong to do.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Mar 20, 2014)

Lizzardborn said:


> A knife that has been owned is not new. Depending on jurisdiction it could be sold as refurbished or used, but not as new.


Hm following this logic when you buy knives from JCK you aren't buying new knives  They are already owned by Mr Koki (the guy behind JCK), as he bought them from manufacturers. So Mr. Koki owned them for some time and then sold them as new. Bad bad boy 

I'm only partly trolling here just to give some thoughts that terminology may not be the same for everyone.


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## WarrenB (Mar 20, 2014)

In the UK we have the Distance Selling Regulations, basically you can return almost anything that you bought at a distance, such as online or mail order catalogue, they say you have the the right to see if the item is suitable once it arrives and return it within 7 working days if it doesn't meet your expectations. I believe there are few exceptions such as hand made one off items made to order, cd's, dvd's and software if the packaging has been opened, perishable goods such as food and flowers, underwear for obvious hygiene reasons.
However I can see how this would be problematic for smaller businesses that do not have the time and finances to deal with multiple returns, quite a difficult area I would guess.


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## Lizzardborn (Mar 20, 2014)

Mr. Koki did not owned the knives. His company owned them. The company is retailer/seller/distributor (depending on the arrangements). A he is not end user of the knives when usually legally the item as new cease to exist, at least where I live. 

But anyway my opinion is that if you want to test a couple of knives just fire email to the vendor and work with him - these are not huge operations, so you are at most a hop away from the person that could say yes, and probably you will be able to work something out on conditions that are acceptable for both sides.


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## Mateyhv (Mar 20, 2014)

In Spain you can return everything before 7 days or 14 days depending on the sellers regulation, sometimes even more. The only exception being safety items like climbing carabiners, harnesses and so on as they might have hidden damage and be a life hazard.

I can see both points of view and I think they can be merged. If a seller charges 10% restocking fee he can then list it at a 10% discount price as a "like new" condition and there will be 3 happy persons, the original buyer who received something that was not up to his expectations, the seller who will have zero loss, and the final customer who would be happy to have a product with a discount. :bliss:


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## dannynyc (Mar 21, 2014)

Mateyhv said:


> I can see both points of view and I think they can be merged. If a seller charges 10% restocking fee he can then list it at a 10% discount price as a "like new" condition and there will be 3 happy persons, the original buyer who received something that was not up to his expectations, the seller who will have zero loss, and the final customer who would be happy to have a product with a discount. :bliss:



From a layperson/customer point of view, this seems like a very sensible idea.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 21, 2014)

The seller still loses his time in dealing with packing the knife an extra time (that's twice for one sale), then unpacking/inspection/restocking, plus all of the time for communications for the return, time spent issuing refunds, and then possibly also packing material loss as well. IMO, the seller needs to charge a restocking fee to recover his losses, he will not break even if he then passes his loss onto the next customer in the way of a sale, he needs to keep that 10% or whatever it is. Personally I don't like the practice of buying multiple items to test out and return and I think a customer who wants this privilege should pay for it as a service.

BTW, I've had customers try to return used wet stones to me when they didn't like the way they worked, the color changed when wet, there are dark streaks in the surface after using, and all kinds of other crazy reasons. Sorry, once they're wet they're yours.  

I don't regularly sell knives but if I did my return policy would be similar to what Jon described above.


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## Timthebeaver (Mar 21, 2014)

Buying five knives with the intention of returning four of them is ridiculous. If everyone took such a profligate approach, the best operators (Jon, Maksim etc.) would basically cease to exist, as they'd be snowed under the weight of returns, for the reasons outlined above.

The charge 10% restocking fee, then resell for 10% less that the original price is poorly thought out too. You are essentially saying the vendor's labor is of virtually zero value, and that's ridiculous too.


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## dannynyc (Mar 21, 2014)

What do you really think Tim?


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## Timthebeaver (Mar 21, 2014)

I think if everyone adopted this approach the vendors that I purchase from, respect and trust, and who carry the best products would be hit the hardest.


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## mhlee (Mar 21, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> The charge 10% restocking fee, then resell for 10% less that the original price is poorly thought out too. You are essentially saying the vendor's labor is of virtually zero value, and that's ridiculous too.



+1


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## mhlee (Mar 21, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> I think if everyone adopted this approach the vendors that I purchase from, respect and trust, and who carry the best products would be hit the hardest.



Agreed.

Some of the arguments and proposals in this thread are nearly thoughtless to the vendors and absurd.

For knives, the vendor may have to do all of the following to sell a returned or used knife:

1. Resharpen the knife, which changes the original geometry of the knife, so it can never be "new" again;
2. Refinish/polish the knife to take off any superficial stains, or possibly more if there are any surface scratches;
3. Clean the handle;
4. Verify there hasn't been any type of water intrusion in the handle;
5. Verify that the knife has no bends in it, and, if so, fix them - knives regularly get bent in transit through the mail if not properly packaged; and
6. Repackage the knife. 

I've seen a vendor here do all of these things as part of a service. It could easily take half an hour to do all of these things depending on the condition of the knife. On top of all of these things, it reduces the actual "new" inventory of a vendor.


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## Talim (Mar 21, 2014)

People seem to forget that once you use a knife you are already dulling the edge and therefore damaging the knife. You're essentially returning damaged goods.


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## JBroida (Mar 21, 2014)

hey guys, i didnt mean to start an argument about this... quite frankly, it can be solved quite simply though

If everyone acts like a reasonable and respectful person, problems rarely occur. Problems occur when one side has a sense of entitlement, a lack of respect, or no patience. Customers need to understand that as vendors, we have a business to run, and our time is valuable. Try not to be overly demanding, but if you need something or are curious, just ask. As vendors, we need to be able to be understanding and sympathetic to our customers needs within reason.

In this case, the customer contacted me and explained his situation and what he was trying to do. I understood and explained that as long as the knife was unused, he could return it (and i would even waive the restocking fee as he was courteous enough to ask if what he wanted to do was ok). However, i also stated that if he used the knife, it would no longer be considered new, and thus i could not accept it as a return. Quite frankly, once the knife is used by the customer, it is a used knife, regardless of the extent to which it was used.

Anyways, the gist of it is this... i call my philosophy the "dont be a dick" method of living
-the customer has to realize that they are not god... they have a responsibility to be respectful, understanding, and reasonable
-the vendor has to understand that their job is customer service and that customers should be treated with respect
-as long as no one acts like a dick, than there is no reason for either side not to act this way, but when someone does, one or both sides often loose the respect side of this deal, which often causes problems

#commonsense

/rant


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## cheflarge (Mar 21, 2014)

I frickin' love it: "DON'T BE A DICK" method of living! Should be the new KKF motto.


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 21, 2014)

Jon, I chuckled when I read your post because my husband subscribes to the same philosophy especially at work.


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## insomniac (Mar 21, 2014)

It is ludicrous for a seller to be held accountable to accept returns for a product that carries no defect per manufacturer standard. Obviously there is something to discuss if the selling process involved deception or the product has suffered apparent damage prior to receipt. But I completely disagree a customer should be allowed to return a product because they find they just don't like it after using it for awhile. That is a decision you're supposed to make before you buy it. No seller should be allowed to force you to click that button, but once you click it, you're accountable for the decisions you make. If you choose to buy something based on online reviews and/or a friend of a friend of a friend's opinion, you're under the gun, not the seller.

Buying an item without ever seeing it in person is risky (a la online shopping). To me, this should be common sense. Protecting people from common sense prevents them from developing it. Real modern world problem.

Above does not apply to infants and small children or anyone else under mental circumstances justifying why they have no idea what they're doing.


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## JBroida (Mar 21, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> Jon, I chuckled when I read your post because my husband subscribes to the same philosophy especially at work.



its been working for me so far  Glad i'm not the only one


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## Mute-on (Mar 21, 2014)

JBroida said:


> If everyone acts like a reasonable and respectful person, problems rarely occur. Problems occur when one side has a sense of entitlement, a lack of respect, or no patience.



I think these two sentences show a very clear understanding of self knowledge, and one's place in a community of people coexisting with each other. These sentiments can be applied to pretty much all personal and commercial relationships with great success.

I think Jon has shown his true mettle here, and I applaud it :thumbsup:

Cheers,

J


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## ThEoRy (Mar 22, 2014)

Take a chance and buy a knife.

Use it.

Like it? Keep it.

Don't like it?

BST.


Simple. And doesn't put anyone out of their way.


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## labor of love (Mar 22, 2014)

I buy knives i know im gonna sell again for a loss all the time. But to me its worth it, as i find it helps me understand more what i want out of a knife. The experience is worth it.


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## jared08 (Mar 22, 2014)

Bst value on certain models is pretty good too.


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## dannynyc (Mar 22, 2014)

Off topic, but I have to say it. I think the level of civility on KKF is starting to slip noticeably -- there is no need to characterize anyone's opinions as "ridiculous," "ludicrous," or "absurd." If you have a substantive disagreement with what someone has said, by all means say so, and explain why, and chances are good that you will influence that person's point of view and maybe lots of other people's as well. But the discourse here is supposed to be respectful, and I personally feel that that basic maxim has been ignored too much of late.

I would point to Dave M. and Jon's responses as models of polite discourse -- they explained the basis for their opinions (which were often quite different from those to which they were responding) and offered a perspective that some (myself included) had perhaps not considered, without trying to malign anyone else's opinion.

So in general, I'd ask everyone to be a bit more mindful of how they phrase their disagreements to ensure that this forum retains its lively spirit without denigrating any points of view.

Thanks, Danny


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## mhlee (Mar 23, 2014)

dannynyc said:


> Off topic, but I have to say it. I think the level of civility on KKF is starting to slip noticeably -- there is no need to characterize anyone's opinions as "ridiculous," "ludicrous," or "absurd." If you have a substantive disagreement with what someone has said, by all means say so, and explain why, and chances are good that you will influence that person's point of view and maybe lots of other people's as well. But the discourse here is supposed to be respectful, and I personally feel that that basic maxim has been ignored too much of late.
> 
> I would point to Dave M. and Jon's responses as models of polite discourse -- they explained the basis for their opinions (which were often quite different from those to which they were responding) and offered a perspective that some (myself included) had perhaps not considered, without trying to malign anyone else's opinion.
> 
> ...



Your, "Your website is broken!" comment certainly showed no civility toward Dave, yet you defended it to the bitter end. Now that you've been called out for a thoughtless proposal, you're crying foul?


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## dannynyc (Mar 23, 2014)

mhlee said:


> Your, "Your website is broken!" comment certainly showed no civility toward Dave, yet you defended it to the bitter end. Now that you've been called out for a thoughtless proposal, you're crying foul?



Seriously, this is your response? This is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. Why treat the forum as a battleground? Why attack people? There are better ways of venting anger or frustration: go hit the bags or run around the block or something. 

I'm sure if you think about it, you'll see that how I interact with a vendor has pretty much nothing to do with how we treat each other's opinions on this forum.


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## dannynyc (Mar 23, 2014)

mhlee said:


> Your, "Your website is broken!" comment certainly showed no civility toward Dave, yet you defended it to the bitter end. Now that you've been called out for a thoughtless proposal, you're crying foul?



Ps it wasn't my proposal anyway. I was just expressing an opinion.


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