# JNat Question - 2nd opinions



## JGui (Apr 16, 2017)

My current stones are:
JNS300
Shapton 2000
1000/6000 Mizuyama
Kitayama

I'm about to buy my first JNat. I'm currently in the talks with Shinichi Watanabe. With research and questioning a lot of people, I have come to conclude that I would like a medium and a finishing stone to somewhat complete my progression. I decided to go with a softer aizu and an ohira renge suita.

I consulted with him.

He told me that the best way to akarenge was this progression:
AI1000
AI2000
Kitayama 8000
Ohira Hazuya Uchigumori
Ohira akarenge suita

I now feel somewhat empty in knowing that I do not know what I am doing (again).


----------



## foody518 (Apr 17, 2017)

What's your biggest question? Why Shinichi gave the progression that he did?
And were you asking with regards to final edges or also for polishing n stuff?


----------



## JGui (Apr 17, 2017)

I was just asking him if i could jump from aizu to ohira. He said that aizu is a stone for hobbyists and that a synthetic can do better. Then he proceeded to give me that progression.

I wasnt even asking anything about polishing or edges. I think he's answering in general.


----------



## Badgertooth (Apr 17, 2017)

Don't feel disheartened, he just wants you to be happy with your purchase and to get what he thinks is the most out of the final stone. Reading between the lines, and from correspondence we've had, I think he is less enamoured by Aizu than we are as enthusiasts and sees it as an idiosyncratic indulgence (he describes them as difficult to use for novices). He loves natural stones but he is also quite pragmatic in his outlook, he advocates finishers because,rightfully, the have certain qualities which are inimitable by synthetics. But I think for everything other instance, he more-or-less thinks the synth outperforms the midgrit natural.


----------



## JGui (Apr 17, 2017)

That was exactly what I got from his messages. I got somewhat confused in a need to buy a uchigumori. If i had the budget then I would buy one, sadly I do not. But all this confusion somehow makes me more excited in owning one. For a time I was sure of the Aizu. Now, I THINK the ohira is the one to pop the cherry


----------



## Krassi (Apr 17, 2017)

Hi!

Shinichi is a craftsmen and time is money! All his Knifes are sharpend with a low Grit belt grinder , Ai1000 and Kitayma and thats it.
He allways told me that low and medium jnats are just fun stuff but always inferior to good synthetics. The Synthetics are simply faster and remove the scratches faster than the more gentle jnats.
you can actually skip the ai2000 .. His progression is spot on and i would also recommend it... Well i dondt know if it needs that Uchigumori.. as a pre finisher it is still one of the best choices.

Still.. i like my Aizu and i will allways use it between ai1000 and kitayama (well i gotta try combining my 24 jnats with the synthetics )
Ok i got a very good vintage Aizu and Aizu's can also be different from stone to stone.

Actually with a Aizu or Kitayama your kitchen knife is insanly sharp.. the rest is fun  and wih not a stable angle the hyper sharpness will be gone after some meals.
Also Ohira is just a name of a mine.. i guess there is too much hype about those stones.. well they are perfect for chiselplanes and Kitchenknives.. well the good ones! every mine diggs out very good but also very average stones.. so the name alone is just a proof of the location but no quality sign.. 

... and thats why you ask shinichi! 

Seeja, daniel


----------



## K813zra (Apr 17, 2017)

Maybe I am weird but I prefer to use either a Jnat as a finisher or the Kitayama but not both. I really don't find using both necessary. Honestly, I typically use a mid range natural such as Aizu, Tajima, or a finer example of Aoto as a stopping point to begin with. 

As the others have said, I was told the same thing, more or less, when I contacted Mr Watanabe the first time but after we got to talking he always suggests different mid range naturals to me because he knows that I enjoy using them. I think for most that it is important to have a solid lineup of synthetic stones and though I don't use them often (almost never) after 1000 grit there are times when I am not in the mood and I just want a sharp knife. In that case it is directly to the synthetics and I call it a day. 

Mr Watanabe is a good guy and a realistic one. He wants people to be happy with their purchase rather than disappointed.


----------



## foody518 (Apr 17, 2017)

tbh the Ohira Renge Suita I got from Shinichi is significantly finer and not as fast cutting as I had thought based on the impression of Ohira Suita I'd gathered from reading about it on the forums. That's neither good nor bad, but just pointing out it is possible to 'misinterpret' what the stone (at least Shinichi's stock might tend to be) is based on other descriptions. Especially if what you're getting the stone for is to have an edge with scratch pattern *only* reflective of that stone, and not a mix of that plus lower grits from not having them totally worked out from too large jumps in a progression. If your initial thought was to go softer Aizu to the Ohira Suita (and not supplement with a coarser nagura slurry or rough up the surface with diamond plate slurry) in one jump, I don't know if that'll happen in a timely manner.

Synths tend to cut more aggressively with deeper scratch pattern compared to naturals that get estimated to be around a similar 'starting grit'.

Maksim has also suggested something like bridging from a 6-8k synth into a higher end of knife friendly finisher Jnat that I asked him about on an earlier occasion (in the event that finer stone is the only natural in one's possession).


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Apr 17, 2017)

I agree with Watanabe-san that mid range naturals are better suited for hobbyists. Once you can take the time, though, Aizu is an interesting stone as it leaves a pretty good edge that is resonably refined, but not too polished for a typical KKF gyuto (60-62 hrc) in my opinion.


----------



## Sharpchef (Apr 17, 2017)

I got around 200 or more sharpening stones.... (full chosera set benchstones and EP version), nearly full Shapton Pro set... (any stone over 1500 grit), some Suehiro Gokuyos up to 20k, EP and Benchstone....) any coticule layer vintage and new, JNats out of nearly any interessting mine, and much more naturals like frankonians, pierre la lune, Arkansas etc.....
some DMT`s, Atoma......

What i would really need for freehand kitchen knife sharpening and flattening is DMT 325, Chosera 1k, Chosera 5k/or a Suita stone...... That`s it.

Here is an example i do today for another forum: Used stones where Shapton Pro 2/5/8/12/30k and Lapping Film with 0,3my
2k 100 strokes





5k 100 strokes




8k 100 strokes




8k 200 strokes




12k 100 strokes




30k 100 strokes




0,3my Lapping Film ca. 50 strokes





so a quite nice edge... now watch this!

Edge after 50 strokes on Nakayama with tomo slurry (very good and fast nakayama btw.....):
about 50 strokes.....





To check this i went back to Shapton 2k, till the grindmarks occur all over:






going to the same Nakayama Nakayama with Atoma Slurry and done in 5 minutes.....





results in the same sharpness.....

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Apr 17, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> What i would really need for freehand kitchen knife sharpening and flattening is DMT 325, Chosera 1k, Chosera 5k/or a Suita stone...... That`s it.



If i had to go for only what's needed, i would choose today an ara toishi and Jon's 1k & 6k diamond stones for a gyuto. However, i think we are way past that point for some time now. I love the toothy edge a soft aoto leaves on an aeb-l gyuto used to slice tomatoes.


----------



## ecrphoto (May 2, 2017)

Love the close up photos...one of the best lessons I've gotten in sharpening was to use a microscope while learning microbevals...


----------



## nutmeg (May 2, 2017)

Hi Jgui, 
actually you can jump from a Kitayama to a very fine natural, you don't "need" the uchigumori.
For you I would see two otptions: 

_one Suita but a good one. Soft (around hs50-hs55) but with fine grit (around 3&#956;m)

_one softer stone like Shiro Suita from Maruo Yamma. A soft uchigumori is also an option between hs45 and hs50.
and a hard suita like hs 55 - hs 65.

Anyway if I had to spare money a bit I would always take a small stone over compromising quality. Eg with the time you can easily sharpen your 300mm blade on a stone like 50mm*50mm.
Quality is important for stones lasting a lifetime. One always forget the price but the quality stays.


----------



## Krassi (May 2, 2017)

Hiho!

regarding finishers often thin ones (well not paper thin but 15mm-20mm) can often be cheaper but of very high quality. i recently sold a small nakayama that was always my benchmark for nakaymas..this thing was so fast that you could go from a 1000 stone on it and no need for anything between.
After your Kitayama you can jump to anything because it removes scratches very good.

A good suita is the only real jnat you need if you are looking for a japanese Natural stone.

The Uchigumori is ..well it can even make nicer finish maybe, but actually its not really needed here. but super fun for great finish.. a hard stone is not the bomb for nice kasumi finish.
Also yellow/red stones are pretty sick pre finishers like uchigumoris..i got so many now that i havent used my ohira uchigumori for ages.

but as nutmeg say "quality oder quantity"...or youll end up like me with to many stones 
seeya,daniel


----------



## JGui (May 21, 2017)

Thank you all.

I am in the works of buying this from maxim http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/ohira-range-suita-lv-3-5-a1240/


----------

