# Need Kasumi stone progression



## Logan A. (Jul 20, 2021)

I want to start by stating that I have no idea what I’m doing in regards to stones. I have a king 1000/6000 that I’ve used and learned on. I’m ready to move on and get into some kasumi/polishing action. Therefore I need some more serious stones.

I have made extensive efforts to find a single brand that fits my needs for a stone progression, but that doesn’t seem to be a common theme. I instead have gathered note of some of what I’ve read are good stones for Kasumi finish. The knives I am trying to achieve kasumi on are generally going to be iron clad carbon. Blue/white usually. Though I do have a 1.2519, and a stainless clad carbon. 

The progression I was thinking would go
Morihei 500
(Suggestions for a 1K?)
Chosera 3000
Morihei 6000
Kitayama 8000

The questionsI’m asking is would this be a good progression for a kasumi finish? What suggestions would you have otherwise? 
Again, I’m not very knowledgeable on stones, and reading threads on them still leaves me unsure. Any help or advise would be appreciated!
I would also like to note that atop the kasumi capability there would need to also be the ability for the stones to give a nice toothy edge. Thanks!


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Jul 20, 2021)

Logan A. said:


> I want to start by stating that I have no idea what I’m doing in regards to stones. I have a king 1000/6000 that I’ve used and learned on. I’m ready to move on and get into some kasumi/polishing action. Therefore I need some more serious stones.
> 
> I have made extensive efforts to find a single brand that fits my needs for a stone progression, but that doesn’t seem to be a common theme. I instead have gathered note of some of what I’ve read are good stones for Kasumi finish. The knives I am trying to achieve kasumi on are generally going to be iron clad carbon. Blue/white usually. Though I do have a 1.2519, and a stainless clad carbon.
> 
> ...


Is this list of stones what you're considering to buy or what you already have?
Also, do all of the stones need to give a toothy edge?


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## Logan A. (Jul 20, 2021)

Considering! I only own a king 1000/6000. They don’t all need to give a toothy edge. Just the capability of having one with that set of stones.


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## Logan A. (Jul 20, 2021)

I also want to note that if there is a single line/brand of stones that I can buy to achieve good results then I’d go with that. There’s no logical reason for me to want a single brand, but the desire is there.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Jul 20, 2021)

Other nice and muddy stones for kasumi are King 800, Suehiro 3k (grits aren't particularly even; gives easy contrast and a really nice edge); JNS Red Aoto Matsukuskusiuguisyama (spelling), gesshin Jinzo aoto

And if I may interest you in some naturally flavored kool aid, the natural progression that I liked best:

Tanba aoto (2k)
Takashima (4k)
Okudo Suita (6k+)
Then Suita or Aizu for edge


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## Logan A. (Jul 20, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Other nice and muddy stones for kasumi are King 800, Suehiro 3k (grits aren't particularly even; gives easy contrast and a really nice edge); JNS Red Aoto Matsukuskusiuguisyama (spelling), gesshin Jinzo aoto
> 
> And if I may interest you in some naturally flavored kool aid, the natural progression that I liked best:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the input!!! As much as I would love some naturally flavored cool aid; I don’t think my bank account feels the same way.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 20, 2021)

Logan A. said:


> Thanks for the input!!! As much as I would love some naturally flavored cool aid; I don’t think my bank account feels the same way.



some of the stones youve listed cost as much as a small tomae though.


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## Cliff (Jul 20, 2021)

Have you tried with your current set up? It should work pretty well.


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## applepieforbreakfast (Jul 20, 2021)

I'll second trying the stones you already have.
If you don't like the results, pick up the Ouka/Suehiro 3k to start. It's comparatively inexpensive, and leaves a nice, all-around edge too.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 20, 2021)

Cliff said:


> Have you tried with your current set up? It should work pretty well.



a single king 1000/6000 is not really sufficient for a kasumi progression IMO.

mostly because you need lower grits.


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## dafox (Jul 20, 2021)

I was in your position just a few months ago, for a one brand kasumi finish set I went with Suehiro cerax 320, 1000, 3000, 5000, reported to give a good kasumi finish, readily available, inexpensive.


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## tostadas (Jul 20, 2021)

The king 800 is a good start to a progression. It's super soft and muddy and only costs about $20.


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## Pie (Jul 20, 2021)

I’ll be honest, for a the longest time I thought some of my stones were crap in the polish progression, then I did other stuff for a few months, and now they seem decent at worst. Could be worth a revisit to your current stones. I definitely don’t do that many stones in the progression either, although that might be causing my unimpressive results. For what it’s worth, Naniwa pro mid grits might be also worth looking into, I find them easy to manage and agreeable to polishing. Just pricey. 

also Hideriyama. All day.


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## Logan A. (Jul 20, 2021)

Thanks for all the input guys! I’ll definitely revisit my current stones before jumping too much further into purchasing, but I’m definitely still interested in hearing all the options and thoughts everyone’s putting out there! It’s very helpful.


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## Pie (Jul 20, 2021)

… but Hideriyama tho


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## Logan A. (Jul 20, 2021)

Pie said:


> … but Hideriyama tho


That is definitely in consideration!


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## zizirex (Jul 20, 2021)

Morihei 500
King Hyper 1k/Arashiyama 1k/ New Kent 1k
Shapton Pro 2k/Suehiro Ouka 3k or Morihei 4k
Morihei Hi 6K
Kitayama 8k/Karasu 9K or Morihei 12K if you have budget.

Optional, Uchigumori for final contrast, but it won't work if you have a rough finish on your blade.


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## Cliff (Jul 20, 2021)

If you're looking to add to your collection -- my King 800 is terrific -- I would look at Cerax 3K and/or Rika 5K. If you buy from JNS, the big, red 3K and 6K are both great. I'm less sold on the 800.


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## cotedupy (Jul 20, 2021)

As above... King 800 and 1200 both _superb_, and I also like the Cerax 3k.


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## Kawa (Jul 21, 2021)

I see you are still open to a 1k suggestion. Consider the Naniwa superstone 1000. Very soft and muddy and rather cheap. It gives a very hazy/dark result. *Don't* consider higher gritt superstones for kasumi, since they start to mirror polish from 2k and upwards (thats where this series shines)

I can also confirm that the kitayama 8k gives a toothy edge on carbons (blue2 and white2), while the appearance is shiny (as far as you can actually judge this, looking at the small edge alone). Very nice and usable edge for a usually ''to high gritt for a kitchen knife'' gritt stone. Haven't used the kitayama 8k on a knives finish, so can't tell you how polished/matte the finish would look on a bigger surface than the edge.


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## Matus (Jul 21, 2021)

There are most likely multiple really options for the 1k stone. JNS 1k stones is really good. Shapton Pro 1k or Shapton Glass 1k - not so much.


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## dafox (Jul 21, 2021)

dafox said:


> I was in your position just a few months ago, for a one brand kasumi finish set I went with Suehiro cerax 320, 1000, 3000, 5000, reported to give a good kasumi finish, readily available, inexpensive.


Finished with a Kitayama 8000.


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## WifeNotUnderstand (Jul 21, 2021)

I found this a while ago on IG


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## Kawa (Jul 21, 2021)

I understand that pressure, amount of water and amount of mud alter the end result.

Can someone explain why a long or short stroke or a slow and fast stroke alter the end result aswell? Is it temperature?


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## applepieforbreakfast (Jul 21, 2021)

Kawa said:


> I understand that pressure, amount of water and amount of mud alter the end result.
> 
> Can someone explain why a long or short stroke or a slow and fast stroke alter the end result aswell? Is it temperature?



My guess would be that short strokes would result in a more random scratch pattern.


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## Pie (Jul 21, 2021)

Kawa said:


> I understand that pressure, amount of water and amount of mud alter the end result.
> 
> Can someone explain why a long or short stroke or a slow and fast stroke alter the end result aswell? Is it temperature?



I can’t imagine temperature being affected unless your long/fast stroke is crazy fast. I think it might be easier to manage the same small amount of mud with a short stroke. Also conditions vary across the face of the stone, so possibly shorter strokes provides more consistency?


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## Cliff (Jul 21, 2021)

WifeNotUnderstand said:


> I found this a while ago on IG




Interesting that this advice is the opposite of Josh's, from Bernal. Josh says small, gentle strokes on dryish mud produce mirror on the core, rather than haziness. Am I missing something?


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## jwthaparc (Jul 21, 2021)

I was able to do this with the king 6000. It was a while back, before I joined this forum. 







The point is. The stones can't do the work for you. With that said, some will make your life easier. 


So what I recommend is getting a decent low grit for thinning 120. 320ish grit to remove those scratches. From their you can move up to 1000ish level stones. At this point I recommend you have one soft one, and one hard one. The hard one will show you any imperfections you still have on the bevel, the soft will smooth out any peaks you may have on the bevel.

Then go 3000, 8000 you can stop there, or go on to high grit naturals.


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## Logan A. (Jul 21, 2021)

This is all great to know guys! I’m likely going to practice with my King 1000 and my “throw away” single bevel. If I got way the morihei 4000, then could I jump straight from any 1k to the 4K and effectively erase all the scratches? Or would I be better of going 2k->4K. Perhaps instead making the jump from 320/500 -> 2k instead of 1k.
Hope the way I wrote that makes sense!


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## Cliff (Jul 21, 2021)

Either is fine, but you already have the 1K, and it should be a pretty good one.


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## Logan A. (Jul 21, 2021)

Cliff said:


> Either is fine, but you already have the 1K, and it should be a pretty good one.


That was the idea. Instead of going and buying multiple stones, I could just implement that one into my current set to establish likes/dislikes. While also being able to work towards a kasumi finish. Then of course I’d move on to other stones that have been recommended


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## Logan A. (Jul 21, 2021)

It seems like it’s impossible to pick the “best stone” (best being relative of course) until I have experienced what I prefer in a sharpening stone.


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## Steampunk (Jul 21, 2021)

Stones only play a part. It's about the process.

Kasumi finishing is an aesthetic finish, that is a secondary part of the process when thinning/regrinding san-mai/laminated steel knives and tools. Either you need to start on blades that were sharpened/finished masterfully so they are perfectly ground and only need to be worked aesthetically (If you're only using medium/fine stones, with the intent of refining the blade finish alone.), or you need to plan on doing the finish-grinding work on the blades yourself to get them evened out before you can even think of creating the beautiful Kasumi's you see.

I've started many a knife, with the intent of making it pretty on a 1K stone, only to learn that I'd just gotten myself into a major regrinding project.

Before Kasumi, comes the grind. This requires at least moderately coarse stones, and some imagination of the geometry you want to create. By making the blade road even, and shaped well, you make a knife that cuts well, and can later be made beautiful.

Learn about creating a 'Hamiguri' (Clamshell) grind, before you focus on making it pretty. 'Pretty' is something of a side-effect, of a knife that cuts well. 'Pretty' cannot happen without an even, and well shaped initial grind.

Use some cheaper knives, and regrind them on coarse stones to thin and convex them, pretending you are a knife maker. That will give you the foundational skills to create an even blade road on your better knives.

Once you've ground your san-mai knives well, you can start to finish them. Here's a general breakdown...

<300-600 grit (<300 for knives with very uneven grinds, or ones which need a lot of thinning. 600-ish for ones that are already thin, and were ground very well by the sharpener.) - At this level, you create facets. You zero the edge by pressing low on the blade, then you thin the grind up by pressing higher towards the shinogi line; maybe a middle one by pressing on the center of the blade road on a very high grind.

~1000-2000 grit - At this level, you can start blending the facets together using a rocking motion as you sharpen. First, start on the Jigane (Cladding) by pressing higher up on the blade towards the shinogi. Get some mud built up, because the cladding will help the stone release abrasive. Then move onto the Higane (Core Steel), by pressing your fingers towards the edge. Polish this awhile. Then, press between the two, to generate a finer third facet. Finally, twist your wrist to rock between them. This will start to blend the grind between the facets.

~ 3000-6000+ grit - At this level, you're just further smoothing the blend of those facets, and polishing the Jigane and Higane. Where you start depends upon the stone; whether you start on the upper part of the grind (Jigane), which you've convexed, or the lower part of the grind (Higane), before you start rocking between them.

There's a ton of different stones that can build a beautiful contrast. Some rely on a sound 'foundation' for the contrast created by a coarser stone, being built up, more than others. Without an even blade road, though, these stones will just create an ugly finish.

For the initial grind, I find that Shapton Pro 220, JNS 300, Naniwa Pro 600, and Shapton Pro 1000 are great depending upon how much cut you need. For really messed up grinds, you start needing to break out coarse sandpaper, or a belt-grinder. When working by hand, you'll develop the virtue of patience.

For the foundational kasumi/blending stage, Naniwa Pro 600, Suehiro Cerax 1000, and JNS Red Aoto are amazing kasumi-creators/grind blenders (Depending upon how much cut you want to achieve, and how coarse your previous stone was. The finer the previous stone, the finer the following stone can be.). The JNS Red Aoto is fairly fine-cutting, so cannot really do much for the grind, but it'll polish well enough you'll ask yourself twice whether or not you need to take the refinement higher. The Naniwa Pro 600 to JNS Red Aoto is a nice progression. The Suehiro 1K can progress up to a 6K stone.

For the final polish, there are some synthetic stones to refine the blend and the scratch pattern... However, I find a Belgian Blue Whetstone (Yes, it is a natural, but a cheap natural that typically costs the same or less than a good synth, and cuts really well with some mud.) with a slurry stone is a really fool-proof kasumi-polishing stone on a budget. It won't polish super high, but it will create and maintain a halfway decently polished contrast, and the edge it leaves is killer in the kitchen. Short of this, something like the orange Suehiro Cerax 6K, or the JNS 6K would be a good choice to get some polish on the core steel, and refine the cladding a bit.

After you create the finish, you micro-bevel on a very fine and hard stone of your choice... Maybe it's a 6K synth, or a natural...

Hopefully this helps. Just remember, to focus on the grind first, and then the finishing second. As soon as you start touching the primary grind, you start having to think like a knife-maker.


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## inferno (Jul 21, 2021)

i like these for kasumi.

1k shapton pro/naniwa pro 800 (very good)
2k naniwa pro (very good)
3k ouka/cerax (streaky)
4k cleancut kitayama (so-so)
8k cerax/traditional (streaky)
8k green suehiro (very very good)
9k karasu (almost identical to the 8k green, but splash and go)

these days i just make a flat bevel then any 1k, 3-4k, then the 8k green or the karasu. done.


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## inferno (Jul 21, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> I've started many a knife, with the intent of making it pretty on a 1K stone, only to learn that I'd just gotten myself into a major regrinding project.


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## Jurrian (Jul 22, 2021)

Hi, 
A lot of of good suggestions here. This is what I do.
make an even scratch pattern from low grit and up. A Shapton 320 will leave be helpful in recognizing if the scratch pattern is even because it leaves a bit of dark scratches. Especially helpful in convex grinds. If the pattern is not even, it will show on higher grits. Repeat the process with 1k and 3k. I use naniwa pro or super stone, results are pretty much the same, moving towards mirror polish.
Then I use jnats, different steels will react differently.
I use and like natsuya (1-2k), aizu (3-4K) and if I’m not satisfied maruoyama shiro suita.
check out Milan’s video


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## daveb (Jul 22, 2021)

The cheap answer is to add a King 800 to your setup.

For a single vendor lineup for sharpening and polishing it would be hard to beat the Gesshin series.

How is your sharpening game? Suggest you focus your resources there until proficient, and then take on polishing.


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## milangravier (Jul 22, 2021)

A lot of the time, when you find info about stones for making kasumi, advises are about getting a kasumi with this particular stone. For exemple King 800 will give you a finish close to kasumi (means iron dark, steel bright). But actually you don't really want to have a kasumi finish at 800 grit if you're gonna go all the way up to 6k or 8k. Actually it is counterproductive as giving a kasumi, the stone will hide your bevel that you try to make clean to get the best finish you can at 8K.

I have done some video on my instagram you can look about stone polishing, and will go on about that.
About a selection of stone here is what I am using or what I would advise to someone : 
Most important : good coarse stones.
Debado 180 : for shaping and giving your bevel the main plans, lines, curves. This will do about 60% of the job.
Hard coarse stone to check your bevel for low spot or uneveness : I use diamond stone but they are expensive. So you can get : shapton glass 320, nano hone 400 or jns 300, any hard stone with 220/400 grit around.
Naniwa pro 400 : it is great for erasing all the previous scratches and give your bevel the final shape. After this you'll be polishing, meaning you'll grind almost nothing on the knife, just erasing scratches.
(Naniwa pro 600 : hard stone that will erase your 400 grit scratches. Not necessary but it is faster to use it than jump to 2k directly)
Bester 2K and Naniwa 2k : Bester is hard, so will erase 400 scratches on iron, checking you got no low spot. If there is, go back to naniwa pro 400 at least. Naniwa pro 2k is softer, pretty fine and will work good on your hard steel to erase 400 scratches and for your iron to erase the bester scratches that are deeper.
Naniwa super 3k : this is a scratch eraser on hard steel. Need refresh often but work great to be sure any previous scratches are erased. Work for hard steel with this one.
Naniwa super 5k or pro 5k : will give your hard steel a fine miror finish. Work for hard steel, forget about your iron 
Last stone in a synthetic progression : I will go for morihei 6 or 8k. but there is a lot that can give you a nice kasumi if your bevel is fine : bester 6k, jns 6k, naniwa pro 5k. Be good at 6k and later on your go finer synthetic or maybe naturals...!

Oh, and don't forget about an atoma 140, just necessary tool if you want to stone polish.


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## Cliff (Jul 22, 2021)

I am amazed how clean the bevel looks when you worked it with the Atoma 140. I've only used it for thinning, but it has left serious scratches that are difficult to get out. Are you using very light pressure to shape the bevel?


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## milangravier (Jul 22, 2021)

I am no more using atoma 140 for shaping because it worns too quickly... But it works fast, just you can only do about 6 or 8 blades before the plate is worn.
But yeah, I am always using low pressure when shaping because it help not to create low spot or uneveness. I put pressure only where I am sure there high spot, too much material


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## Cliff (Jul 22, 2021)

That was my next question -- about burning through the plates. Thinning really took a lot of life out of it.


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## milangravier (Jul 22, 2021)

Cliff said:


> That was my next question -- about burning through the plates. Thinning really took a lot of life out of it.


That's why I advise debado 180 now. 
The diamond plate I got is 6mm vitrified diamond plate, 400 grit. I just got it recently. It is really good but expensive


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## dAtron (Aug 30, 2021)

milangravier said:


> A lot of the time, when you find info about stones for making kasumi, advises are about getting a kasumi with this particular stone. For exemple King 800 will give you a finish close to kasumi (means iron dark, steel bright). But actually you don't really want to have a kasumi finish at 800 grit if you're gonna go all the way up to 6k or 8k. Actually it is counterproductive as giving a kasumi, the stone will hide your bevel that you try to make clean to get the best finish you can at 8K.
> 
> I have done some video on my instagram you can look about stone polishing, and will go on about that.
> About a selection of stone here is what I am using or what I would advise to someone :
> ...




Hello Milan, Thank you for this detailed answer. I have watched both of your videos and something that is still not clear to me is when do you start blending in the two bevels to form one smooth convex one? If i got this right, you use atoma and geshhin 220 to form two different bevels and then jump to a 400 to even both of them out and erase the scratches?


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## milangravier (Aug 30, 2021)

dAtron said:


> Hello Milan, Thank you for this detailed answer. I have watched both of your videos and something that is still not clear to me is when do you start blending in the two bevels to form one smooth convex one? If i got this right, you use atoma and geshhin 220 to form two different bevels and then jump to a 400 to even both of them out and erase the scratches?


Hey,
I will make other video to give those answer and more details about how I work as it has evolved since the first video about shaping bevels.
Right now I can say I am blending the two faces I make with coarse stones on each bevels when I am at 2k (naniwa pro for me). I feel it is good time for me for blending. If you blend too early (like 400 grit), it means you loose the benefit of having two faces to work them differently (with different stones, and scratch direction), and you will be slower. If you blend later, you can be faster I think, but I felt the blending was not enough when made with let say a soft natural prefinisher, so my finisher did not have the perfect field to run.

Nowadays, I am no more working with atoma 140. I work with debado ld 180 only or with gesshin 220 for the edge. Then I work with a 400 grit vitrified diamond plate to check and finish to shape the bevel perfectly. After 400 diamond plate, I will use 400 naniwa pro on the edge to erase quickly the diamond scratches, then I will use naniwa pro 600 on the entire bevel to get ready to jump to 2k (naniwa pro). Work for me.

Be welcome to ask for more details


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## dAtron (Aug 30, 2021)

milangravier said:


> Hey,
> I will make other video to give those answer and more details about how I work as it has evolved since the first video about shaping bevels.
> Right now I can say I am blending the two faces I make with coarse stones on each bevels when I am at 2k (naniwa pro for me). I feel it is good time for me for blending. If you blend too early (like 400 grit), it means you loose the benefit of having two faces to work them differently (with different stones, and scratch direction), and you will be slower. If you blend later, you can be faster I think, but I felt the blending was not enough when made with let say a soft natural prefinisher, so my finisher did not have the perfect field to run.
> 
> ...




Thank you! this is really helpful. Cleared up my question. Looking forward to the second video.


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