# Fake knives?



## mille162 (Apr 5, 2018)

It seems wherever there is demand/limited supply and high prices, there are scammers with fake products in the market.

While searching recently for more of an investment knife, Ive been looking at ebay as a possible marketplace and it dawned on me that it would be fairly easy to fake a Kramer knife, and at $10,000-$25,000 auction prices that it would be a pretty big payoff for very little effort.

In the watch world, Rolex considers anything not sold by an AD as not authentic. A factory worker on the line takes a single spare part home each day and builds an identical watch as he built at work with authentic parts; that is a fake. You have older or less rare authentic models updated with authentic parts to make newer designs or rarer pieces (think Newman Daytona), and those are considered fakes. Its near impossible to tell those models as fake so it all comes down to matching serial #s, COAs and paperwork...but there are no serial #s on knives.

Using Kramer as an example, someone with forging capabilities could take a mass produced Zwilling model in carbon steel (his shape and 52100 carbon steel), remove stock handle and replace it with a more premium wood, the 3 dot pins seem to be readily available to fake his trademark logo, and with basic forging equipment, could reproduce his stamp and add it to the blade. Give it a bit of use and aging and its believable that youve owned/used it for 10 years and it's real. 

Now I know Bob is offering a reconditioning service and new issued COAs for his knives, which helps address this potential issue, but still doesnt eliminate it (or prevent a dishonest person from reproducing his real one and real certificate to make 10 fakes sold privately).

I recently communicated with someone on ebay who had 3 total Kramers for sale with a believable backstory of why they were for sale. He removed the listing stating he was sending back to Kramer to get the COA done and theyd be relisted. An email to him a few months later got a response that he had already sold them without COA...that really got me worrying about buying a fake 

Has anyone here had experiences in fakes of higher end, rare, valuable blades? Id love to hear about how you determined it was a fake and where you came across it.

-Ron


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## Jovidah (Apr 5, 2018)

Why invest in knives? Given how erratic the market is it'll always be a bit of a gamble, with a relatively small market of 'appreciators'. There's far more sensible things to invest in. Weaponry, renewable energy, artificial intelligence, yadda yadda...


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## HRC_64 (Apr 5, 2018)

oh, god


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## ThEoRy (Apr 5, 2018)

What the hell is an investment knife? Is that like an investment screwdriver?


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## dwalker (Apr 5, 2018)

I've often wondered the same thing about counterfeit knives, Shigs in particular. Since almost nobody uses them, how would the buyer know they were fake?


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## mille162 (Apr 5, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> Why invest in knives? Given how erratic the market is it'll always be a bit of a gamble, with a relatively small market of 'appreciators'. There's far more sensible things to invest in. Weaponry, renewable energy, artificial intelligence, yadda yadda...



sorry, maybe "investment knife" is the wrong term, I am not "investing" as in hoping to make money or increase in value; I'm merely referring to the price being paid being of a higher value. It's a knife I plan on keeping through my career/life and I'm investing a considerable sum (to me) in it.


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## Chef Doom (Apr 5, 2018)

Just when you are looking for a scammi*cough* investment opportunity.


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## StonedEdge (Apr 5, 2018)

If you buy something without any hopes of making your money back (and perhaps more), then it's simply not an investment at all. Also why would you pick up a "investment grade" knife, a.k.a a very expensive one, to work with?


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## mille162 (Apr 5, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> If you buy something without any hopes of making your money back (and perhaps more), then it's simply not an investment at all. Also why would you pick up a "investment grade" knife, a.k.a a very expensive one, to work with?



again, I was referring to investing in myself, investing in the right tools, investing in something special to me and of value to me. I am not referring to putting something in a box and letting it appreciate in value for resale. Please excuse the wrong term and lack of original explanation.

why am I willing to buy an expensive knife? Well, that's because I want something more than what's being delivered with mass produced knives, I want something special to me, and quite frankly I think investing in the right tools is worth the money. I've been trying to buy something that meets my specific criteria for a while now and have yet to find the right deal. Although I'm on the list for two makers whose work I admire, it's a 2+ year wait, and the price is $3,000+ for each...which brings me back to my original question about fakes. I've seen a few of their pieces offered up here when someone isn't happy with the final product, or is in need of funds, or whatever, and that raises the question for me, how worried should I be about buying a fake?

Not that I'm saying someone on here would knowingly sell a fake, but what if they bought it at a knife show where a dishonest seller misrepresented a well made fake? Damascus blanks are readily available for a cheap price, and with basic skills you could shape it and fake the handle. All that's missing is stamping a logo of whatever maker you're trying to fake, and now you have a blade that would sell for several thousand $'s. Maybe someone here bought it years ago from someone else who thought it was real and honestly believes it to be a real piece from that maker.

I recently bought a pair of higher end used speakers, the owner offered to also sell me the speaker cables that he had hooked up. The speakers retailed for $10,000 (Egglestonworks Rosa's) and the cables had a retail of $3600 (Transparent Audio Ultra's). He had a beautiful listening room, great equipment that is on the level that you'd expect of those pieces, and everything was in perfect condition. I almost bought the cables, but didn't have the cash. They looked perfect, I'm very familiar with the brand and have several of their other cables purchased from AD's, I just didn't have the cash with me for both. After I got home, I did an ebay search to check the used value and found a listing and the 2nd picture showed same serial #'s on the back ! These fakes were PERFECT, except for the serial #'s being used somewhere else...such a small detail. I called the guy back and told him what I found and he swore he had no idea, he had bought them off of another enthusiast on a respected audio forum...I would have probably never known had I not found the duplicate pair for sale from Asia. So maybe it's just this recent experience that has me doubting the authenticity of higher priced items, but I go back to my original question, is the high end knife market large enough that buyers should be weary of fakes?

So, the questions I was hoping to open up for discussion:

-Is the kitchen knife market at the point where we need to be concerned about purchasing a fake?

-Are there certain brands more likely to be faked than others?

-Has anyone had experience in purchasing a fake, and if so, how did you determine it was not authentic?


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## Noodle Soup (Apr 5, 2018)

dwalker said:


> I've often wondered the same thing about counterfeit knives, Shigs in particular. Since almost nobody uses them, how would the buyer know they were fake?



No body uses them? I've been using my two for a number of years.


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## Jovidah (Apr 5, 2018)

-If you're so worried about fakes, buy straight from the maker. Seems like you've got the budget for it.
-You're pretty far into diminishing returns territory as it is... if you haven't found what you're looking for (yet), maybe ask for directions here on where to get what you're looking for. I honestly can't imagine that your tastes are so extravagant that it's impossible to satisfy them for less than 4 figures. 
-Distinguish between whether you want something to collect or something to use. The more you invest in it, the less likely you are to use it as intended. In the end it's a tool to be used. That also means sharpening it - and thereby essentially expending it in the long term. A knife that lasts 50 years is IMO either un-maintained, or un-used.
-Also keep in mind that quality and performance are not necessarily directly related to price. Many here will readily admit that their best performing, or favorite knives, are not their most expensive ones. Throwing more money at it is not necessarily the best solution.


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## dwalker (Apr 5, 2018)

Noodle Soup said:


> No body uses them? I've been using my two for a number of years.


I think you are in the minority. Almost every one I see for sale on the secondary market is NIB.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 5, 2018)

Years ago fake Globals were everywhere on the ebay.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 5, 2018)

To the OP, yes a Kramer could be easily faked and I believe it'd be a really good one to do if someone was going to try this out.


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## Jovidah (Apr 5, 2018)

Or get some Vietnamese kid to grind half an edge on an old horse grater and sell them as knock-off Chelsea Miller knives for 900 dollars. Ka-ching!
Or knock-off Moritakas... who will notice the difference regardless of quality?


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## StonedEdge (Apr 5, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> Or get some Vietnamese kid to grind half an edge on an old horse grater and sell them as knock-off Chelsea Miller knives for 900 dollars. Ka-ching!
> Or knock-off Moritakas... who will notice the difference regardless of quality?


Hahahaha but to have that CM "otherness" that kid would have to adhere to strict Brooklyn hipsterism and make sure the handle scales are glued on with the poorest attention to detail.


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## parbaked (Apr 5, 2018)

Problem with faking a Kramer is that any buyer can get Kramer to "authenticate" the knife...then you end up in the big house making shivs from stolen spoons...


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## mille162 (Apr 5, 2018)

parbaked said:


> Problem with faking a Kramer is that any buyer can get Kramer to "authenticate" the knife...then you end up in the big house making shivs from stolen spoons...



and after bob sends it back to you with a note saying "sorry, this is a fake", you're fighting with PayPal or your cc company trying to get a refund...I've been there with other goods and I know that once you've sent the money, the odds of you getting it back are slim...and if they're dishonest enough to fake a product and rip you off, they've probably planned appropriately with hiding their identity and cleaning out accounts for cash asap.


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## ThEoRy (Apr 5, 2018)

parbaked said:


> shivs from stolen spoons...



I prefer melting now and laters into a long sharp point. You'd be surprised at how much damage they can do!


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## Jville (Apr 6, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> Or get some Vietnamese kid to grind half an edge on an old horse grater and sell them as knock-off Chelsea Miller knives for 900 dollars. Ka-ching!
> Or knock-off Moritakas... who will notice the difference regardless of quality?



I know moritaka has his haters, but grouping him with Chelsea Miller is harshirate1:


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## Timthebeaver (Apr 6, 2018)

Buy a pile of cheap, thick sanmai white steel knives and get a 5 year old to chisel the kanji = ersatz Katos


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## milkbaby (Apr 6, 2018)

You can lessen the issue by trying to buy a knife with certificate from a known good collector or retailer. Or maybe offer to pay to have the knife certified by Kramer beforehand.

Counterfeiting is a potential issue for any expensive collectible. Known provenance can help, basically if there has always been evidence the knife is an original. Like if it was shown by Kramer on his website at auction, and then it was displayed by the original purchaser online and bought directly from that person. That way it's known and can be traced back to Bob Kramer. May be worth being patient when it comes to a Kramer.

Also, I bet that almost anybody who is charging $3k for a knife (and successfully selling them) and has a two year wait is going to make a totally awesome knife for you.


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## welshstar (Apr 6, 2018)

I am a wine collector and anyone from that field will tell you that anything and everything can be and is regularly faked. There will be numerous fakes flying around this forum, a lot of them will not even be identified as fake by their owners. 

Only way to be sure is the same way as wine, you have to buy from the maker or very reputable reseller


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## parbaked (Apr 6, 2018)

Yeah fake wines are huge problem in China.

In the 1980s I worked for the company that was Moet Hennessy's agent in Asia. In China, we made bars smash the empty bottles and return the used bottle caps before getting more inventory. It was the only way to stop empty bottles being recycled as counterfeit product.

The only reason they're not faking Kramer's is that the Chinese aren't dumb enough to pay over $15K for knife....


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## milkbaby (Apr 6, 2018)

parbaked said:


> Yeah fake wines are huge problem in China.
> 
> In the 1980s I worked for the company that was Moet Hennessy's agent in Asia. In China, we made bars smash the empty bottles and return the used bottle caps before getting more inventory. It was the only way to stop empty bottles being recycled as counterfeit product.
> 
> The only reason they're not faking Kramer's is that the Chinese aren't dumb enough to pay over $15K for knife....



They're too busy buying fake wine and $1 million dollar beds made of critically endangered Siamese rosewood instead: http://www.newsweek.com/2017/08/18/siamese-rosewood-tree-thailand-poachers-646904.html


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## mille162 (Apr 7, 2018)

welshstar said:


> I am a wine collector and anyone from that field will tell you that anything and everything can be and is regularly faked. There will be numerous fakes flying around this forum, a lot of them will not even be identified as fake by their owners.
> 
> Only way to be sure is the same way as wine, you have to buy from the maker or very reputable reseller



Speaking of counterfeits, heres a great documentary every fine wine purchaser should be aware of!

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/c...bout-the-con-that-shook-the-world-of-wine/amp


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## Chef Doom (Apr 12, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> Or get some Vietnamese kid to grind half an edge on an old horse grater and sell them as knock-off Chelsea Miller knives for 900 dollars. Ka-ching!
> Or knock-off Moritakas... who will notice the difference regardless of quality?


There are things I would like to knock-off regarding Chelsea Miller, but it isn't her knives.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 14, 2018)

I guess nihonto swords would be the more interesting investment - and no one will insist that you should use them as intended instead of collecting them.


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