# Aogami super honyaki



## khashy (Feb 9, 2017)

Just wondering if anyone makes honyaki AS blades?

Is this even possible/practical/a good idea?


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## jklip13 (Feb 9, 2017)

Yusuke san from Nenohi said something like "we can do it, but it's going to be very delicate and the Hamon won't be very distinct."


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## bkultra (Feb 9, 2017)

Blue steel contains very little P and S, but W (tungsten) and Cr (Chromium) are added to make the hardening temperature less critical and to increase wear resistance for longer- lasting sharpness. Super Blue Steel, with more W and Cr, plus Mo (molybdenum) for additional toughness and wear resistance. This also widens the hardening step; it can be cooled in oil instead of water.

It would seem that super blue wouldn't be ideal for Mizu Honyaki considering the above.


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## khashy (Feb 9, 2017)

jklip13 said:


> Yusuke san from Nenohi said something like "we can do it, but it's going to be very delicate and the Hamon won't be very distinct."



Delicate in what sense? Chippy?


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## khashy (Feb 9, 2017)

bkultra said:


> Blue steel contains very little P and S, but W (tungsten) and Cr (Chromium) are added to make the hardening temperature less critical and to increase wear resistance for longer- lasting sharpness. Super Blue Steel, with more W and Cr, plus Mo (molybdenum) for additional toughness and wear resistance. This also widens the hardening step; it can be cooled in oil instead of water.
> 
> It would seem that super blue wouldn't be ideal for Mizu Honyaki considering the above.



Right, I think I understand. But does anyone do it at all, oil or water?


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## Sharpchef (Feb 9, 2017)

What about high quality western steels that can are like Aogami Super? There are many makers ho can do you monosteel blades..... ?

Steels like 1.2442, Catcheyblue.....

Greets Sebastian.


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## khashy (Feb 9, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> What about high quality western steels that can are like Aogami Super? There are many makers ho can do you monosteel blades..... ?
> 
> Steels like 1.2442, Catcheyblue.....
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



I'm infected with Japanese-maker-fetish.........

:O


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## jklip13 (Feb 9, 2017)

khashy said:


> Delicate in what sense? Chippy?



I don't like the term "chippy" the vast majority of chips in knives come from misuse . But yeah my guess would be that the chip that would occur in a blue supper honyaki would be a lot bigger than a white 2 honyaki. Just a guess though


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 9, 2017)

Did that smith estimate what hardness could be reached if meaning business?


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## Sharpchef (Feb 9, 2017)

khashy said:


> I'm infected with Japanese-maker-fetish.........
> 
> :O




Because of what? performance?, f&f, price?.... I think most of the good western makers can do this much better! And the price will be almost the same...... especially with these monosteel, honyaki'`s.......

Greets Sebastian.


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## bkultra (Feb 9, 2017)

khashy said:


> Right, I think I understand. But does anyone do it at all, oil or water?



I'm sure it's done or can be done at least, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Super blue was designed to be more forgiving during heat treatment, and also allowing you to take it to a higher hardness for a longer lasting edge. Why double down on the same idea of hardness and edge holding, and at the same time eliminate the advantage of it being easier to make?


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## khashy (Feb 9, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> Because of what? performance?, f&f, price?.... I think most of the good western makers can do this much better! And the price will be almost the same...... especially with these monosteel, honyaki'`s.......
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



I don't know, I can't explain it, just is (kind of like all other fetish)


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## khashy (Feb 9, 2017)

bkultra said:


> I'm sure it's done or can be done at least, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. Super blue was designed to be more forgiving during heat treatment, and also allowing you to take it to a higher hardness for a longer lasting edge. Why double down on the same idea of hardness and edge holding, and at the same time eliminate the advantage of it being easier to make?



Right, now it makes sense. 

Wouldyou say the same thing about blue #1 too?


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## bkultra (Feb 9, 2017)

khashy said:


> Right, now it makes sense.
> 
> Wouldyou say the same thing about blue #1 too?



Similar but to a lesser extent. You often see white #2 and blue #2 used for a reason... they strike a good balance of edge holding and not being to brittle. People tend to like extremes, but some times balanced is the better option.


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## Sharpchef (Feb 9, 2017)

Just to clarify.... i am a little bit confused....

Lets say any maker makes a monosteel knife out of Super blue... there is only one disadvantge, the blade can`t be fixed (in cold condition) after hardening. That`s it. Any San Mai knife can be fixed, and this is why japanese blacksmiths sell these cheaper.... In europe monosteel knives are cheaper... because of known (written in many books) heat treatment "rules"....

Greets Sebastian.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 9, 2017)

And european monosteel is not often differentially tempered?


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## Matus (Feb 9, 2017)

Steels with higher alloy contents are in general deep hardening and do not need to be cooled super fast during the quench to fully harden (some tool steels harden just when cooling in air). That makes in for (nearly) impossible to get any hamon. At the same time (here I am pushing the limits of my theoretical knowledge of the subject) these steels will react worse to fast quench in water. Just have a look at blue #2 or blue #1 honyaki knives - these are usually considerably more expensive than white steel. The reason is the process is harder to get right.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 9, 2017)

So the philosophy behind eg Takagi's knives must be to put in as little effort as possible pre-tempering so the losses are more economically bearable?


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## Oh_Toro (Feb 9, 2017)

bkultra said:


> Why double down on the same idea of hardness and edge holding...?



Infatuation with extremes without consideration of practicality. I admit I'm guilty of this thought.

Something something so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didnt stop to think if they should :rofl2:


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## khashy (Feb 21, 2017)

Right, so they do exist

http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/matsuohamono/item/0231/

I would only expect someone like Shiraki-san to be able to pull this off


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## pkjames (Feb 21, 2017)

Masamoto recently came up with a 50yr annuversary honyaki in AS.


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## khashy (Feb 21, 2017)

pkjames said:


> Masamoto recently came up with a 50yr annuversary honyaki in AS.



Thanks James. Do you happen to have a picture that we can gawk at?


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## supersayan3 (Feb 22, 2017)

Open the link at post 20 in this thread to see it
Reads hardness 67 plus/minus 1!!!! 
Wow


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## khashy (Feb 22, 2017)

supersayan3 said:


> Open the link at post 20 in this thread to see it
> Reads hardness 67 plus/minus 1!!!!
> Wow



Post 20 is the one I put up from Matsuo hamono. It's a yanagi. 

Is that the same as the masamoto?


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## pkjames (Feb 22, 2017)

I can't find my masamoto catalog yesterday. I will upload once I find it.


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## khashy (Feb 22, 2017)

pkjames said:


> I can't find my masamoto catalog yesterday. I will upload once I find it.



Thank you sir.


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## khashy (Mar 7, 2017)

pkjames said:


> I can't find my masamoto catalog yesterday. I will upload once I find it.



Did you ever manage to find the catalogue James?


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## Lazarus (Mar 7, 2017)

Mert Tansu does honyaki in AS if I'm not mistaken.


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## Nemo (Mar 7, 2017)

Really? I've seen his aogami 2 honyakis but didn't realise he did aogami super.


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## pkjames (Mar 7, 2017)

failed to upload from phone the other day then I forgot about it, sorry


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## khashy (Mar 8, 2017)

pkjames said:


> failed to upload from phone the other day then I forgot about it, sorry
> 
> View attachment 34813
> 
> View attachment 34814



Thank you for this. The deeper hardening steels have much less pronounced hamons, this one you can barely make out where the hamon is.


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