# Knife sharpening issues for a newbie



## ar11 (Aug 20, 2013)

Just bought a king 1k/6k combo stone. I'm trying my hand at sharpening. Have a couple knives with problems, trying to figure out the best way to tackle the issues

Shun Santoku - If you can see in the photo the edge is TORN! If i shot the edge from straight above, the tear is not in alignment with the rest of the edge and drags ferociously on the stones. How do i remedy this issue? I was thinking about trying to bend it back somehow but either way looks like that piece of metal has been compromised. This will be the last Shun I own. their VG10 is crap, chips so easily.







Tanaka 210 Gyuto - Arrived in the mail with some small chips. If you look very closely looks like small bits of the edge are in the process of tearing away. Does this mean the angle is too low? Any recommendations on how to sharpen to fix? Im not even sure if the 1k stone is coarse enough, or maybe it'll take a REALLY long time


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## spaceconvoy (Aug 20, 2013)

Holy crap! How'd that happen to the Shun?


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## Miles (Aug 20, 2013)

Wow. What SC said... How on earth did that happen?


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## Talim (Aug 20, 2013)

Probably used it to cut thru bones. That Tanaka looks like it's rusting.


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## pkjames (Aug 20, 2013)

i don't think they are easy to fix on the 1K King.


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## TheDispossessed (Aug 20, 2013)

that could be carbide fallout on both knives but i suspect not on the shun. the king 1k, being slow cutting for a stone in that grit, which is too high to begin with for those fixes, is certainly not ideal. realistically speaking, it will take quite a while to fix those knives on that stone and it will be severely dished by the time you're finished so i do hope you have a stone fixer as well. if you are determined to attempt a repair with the king, i'd recommend using light pressure and try to get some practice using the whole surface of the stone to reduce dishing. allow yourself 30min-1hr per knife. also get a can of bar keepers friend and clean up the tanaka.


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## NO ChoP! (Aug 20, 2013)

Yah, Tanaka blue are super reactive. Like more so than anything else I've ever used....


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## ar11 (Aug 20, 2013)

The tear in the Shun, not sure how it happened it's my wife's knife. I don't think she tried going thru bone, she usually uses the cleaver for that, but probably tried to go thru something hard or frozen. Rust developed on the Tanaka while I was sharpening, its super duper reactive and I was too lazy to remove before photo. I already have barkeepers friend handy to clean it up. I have to acid dip the knife as it's super reactive. So I guess i probably have to get a 400-500 grit stone. I have a flattening brick I bought which says it's 220 grit, would it be stupid to try to correct the chips on that?


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## echerub (Aug 20, 2013)

NO ChoP! said:


> Yah, Tanaka blue are super reactive. Like more so than anything else I've ever used....



There are others more frustratingly reactive  The Tanaka blue cladding is on the more reactive half of the range, but definitely not at the top I'd say.


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## Talim (Aug 20, 2013)

I have a Tanaka too and mine doesn't rust like that while sharpening. And I don't think mine is super-reactive although the only thing I have to compare it too is a Takeda.


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## brainsausage (Aug 20, 2013)

The 220 sounds like your best bet. Just take it slow, and check your work often, as it will remove material pretty quick.


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## zitangy (Aug 20, 2013)

1. I wld remove the chips /nicks on a say 200 grit either sandpaper or stone by using an angle of abt 60 degrees with only long strokes so as not to compromise the shape/ profile of the knife. Sort of scraping motion ( spine leading on both sides) Follow the shape of the edge Take note that towards the heel, the blade is thicker and may need more work than the front portion. At all times be aware that you need to maintain the integrity of the profile.

Check constantly how much steel and where you are removing!

2. AS the edge wld have receded guite a fair bit on the shun, you may need to then thin the egde as it wld have become slightly thicker by using a lower angle and put a slightly higher angle later. I prefer to do this on a slightly higher grit say 400grit as pnce you remove metal you cant put it back.

It shld still be able to cut paper if the 2 angles have met and thin enough.. but rough.

3.Once it is thin enough use the combo stone. 

Have fun..

rgds
d


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## mhlee (Aug 20, 2013)

ar11 said:


> Shun Santoku - If you can see in the photo the edge is TORN! If i shot the edge from straight above, the tear is not in alignment with the rest of the edge and drags ferociously on the stones. How do i remedy this issue? I was thinking about trying to bend it back somehow but either way looks like that piece of metal has been compromised. This will be the last Shun I own. their VG10 is crap, chips so easily.



Those aren't "chips" or a "torn" edge. That's bad use. I think this has very little to do with the steel, and mostly to do with whoever used that knife.

I think it's very presumptuous to blame the steel and say that the VG10 is crap and "chips so easily." In fact, if that steel was chippy, instead of bends in the edge, you should have HUGE chips. 

But, that edge is chipped AND bent. Normal, correct use would not generally cause that kind of damage, e.g., cutting forward and back, vertically, not forcing the edge through something too hard, etc. There's no reason for the edge of a knife to be that bent if correct technique were used.

Based on those two things, I think the knife was either used for something frozen or hard, causing the actual chipping, but also pushed with significant force onto something hard when it was used, or used in a striking motion at an angle, or it got stuck and was twisted (toward the left?) when it was pulled out. It looks like a Dexter stainless Chinese Cleaver I saw recently that had similar damage. 

While I've never owned a Shun, I've seen several Shuns that have had carbide fallout. That doesn't look like carbide fallout as explained to me by Jon Broida. 

That's also not a simple fix from what I understand. You can't bend the edge back straight, so you'll likely have to either (1) grind away that entire portion that was damaged and re-profile the knife (I've done this on my own knife), and then recreate the edge or (2) sharpen both sides and hope until that portion is ground down. You're better off sending that knife to a pro unless you have a grinder and want to spend some time on it.


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## Zwiefel (Aug 20, 2013)

Might use a cinder block to knock out the bulk of the work, then do the thinning + bevel reset with your expensive stones. I did a more extreme repair this way a while back:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/10784-Sharpening-advice?highlight=cinder


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## EdipisReks (Aug 20, 2013)

I've seen knives used on frozen food that looked just like that Shun.


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## ar11 (Aug 20, 2013)

mhlee said:


> Those aren't "chips" or a "torn" edge. That's bad use. I think this has very little to do with the steel, and mostly to do with whoever used that knife.
> 
> I think it's very presumptuous to blame the steel and say that the VG10 is crap and "chips so easily." In fact, if that steel was chippy, instead of bends in the edge, you should have HUGE chips.



I blame my wife for the damages! She's an excellent cook but could care less about kitchen tools. She thinks im an idiot because im buying all these fancy japanese knives. But I'll change her mind .. one day. So I respect that point about the tear or whatever it is, I supposed the whole thing would've chipped away if it were too brittle. But on the other hand this Shun, my mom's Shun, my sister's Shun have all developed small chips doing easy cutting on just vegetables and soft meats. That bugs the crap out of me, hate that think what I'm eating has small flecks of metal. 

The Tanaka I sharpened out the small chips this morning in about 45min with the 1k stone. Watched Jon's vids and used the sharpie trick. It's probably nowhere are good as most members here, but as my first full sharpening job felt quite proud of myself. I'll post some photos when I get home. I'm going to give that Shun no mercy. Take it to some rough sandpaper or the fixer brick and beat it up some. It's seen several years of use already so wont feel too bad about making it a project


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## EdipisReks (Aug 20, 2013)

I have owned and used many Shuns, and I've never gotten chips on them. "easy cutting" for most people is hammering the damn thing into the board and throwing it into the sink.

If you don't think that Shun, it's going to cut like crap, just FYI. If the finish matters to you, Shun's etch well.


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## Mrmnms (Aug 20, 2013)

Maybe listen to your wife. Give her something that will take abuse that suits her. You'll save a lt of money and aggravation .There are plenty of great cooks who don't share our enthusiasm for crazy knives. My wife would never use one of my good knives. No desire at all, but I keep her cheap knives as sharp as she likes them.


ar11 said:


> I blame my wife for the damages! She's an excellent cook but could care less about kitchen tools. She thinks im an idiot because im buying all these fancy japanese knives. But I'll change her mind .. one day. So I respect that point about the tear or whatever it is, I supposed the whole thing would've chipped away if it were too brittle. But on the other hand this Shun, my mom's Shun, my sister's Shun have all developed small chips doing easy cutting on just vegetables and soft meats. That bugs the crap out of me, hate that think what I'm eating has small flecks of metal.
> 
> The Tanaka I sharpened out the small chips this morning in about 45min with the 1k stone. Watched Jon's vids and used the sharpie trick. It's probably nowhere are good as most members here, but as my first full sharpening job felt quite proud of myself. I'll post some photos when I get home. I'm going to give that Shun no mercy. Take it to some rough sandpaper or the fixer brick and beat it up some. It's seen several years of use already so wont feel too bad about making it a project


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## EdipisReks (Aug 20, 2013)

that should have been "don't think that Shun," not don't think it. But you should think about thinning it before you thin it.


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## brainsausage (Aug 20, 2013)

Mrmnms said:


> Maybe listen to your wife. Give her something that will take abuse that suits her. You'll save a lt of money and aggravation .There are plenty of great cooks who don't share our enthusiasm for crazy knives. My wife would never use one of my good knives. No desire at all, but I keep her cheap knives as sharp as she likes them.



Sage advice.


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## EdipisReks (Aug 21, 2013)

EdipisReks said:


> that should have been "don't think that Shun," not don't think it. But you should think about thinning it before you thin it.



argh, my iPad did the same thing twice! "_thin_ the Shun," _thin_.


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## banjo1071 (Aug 21, 2013)

ar11 said:


> I blame my wife for the damages! She's an excellent cook but could care less about kitchen tools. She thinks im an idiot because im buying all these fancy japanese knives.



We have gone down THAT road, brother...


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## zitangy (Aug 21, 2013)

ar11 said:


> The Tanaka I sharpened out the small chips this morning in about 45min with the 1k stone. Watched Jon's vids and used the sharpie trick. It's probably nowhere are good as most members here, but as my first full sharpening job felt quite proud of myself. I'll post some photos when I get home. I'm going to give that Shun no mercy. Take it to some rough sandpaper or the fixer brick and beat it up some. It's seen several years of use already so wont feel too bad about making it a project




That sounds challenging:thumbsup: and I am sure tht yu will gain/ learn much from it. Whilst showing no mercy.. don't over shave the steel

You can only improve on yr skill.

rgds d


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## ar11 (Aug 21, 2013)

The Tanaka, sharpened the nicks away with the 1k King. Wasn't as hard as I thought it'd be. Probably gonna thin before I etch






Shun WIP, only half way thru the repair. Spent a while scraping the edge of the blade against a 220 grit fixing stone, but it was probably hurting the edge more anything as several spots began to roll. I went to thin on the 1k King, and slowly but surely it's getting there. Wife came in mid-repair "*** are you doing with MY KNIFE!" I was deer in the headlights, but finally convinced her to check back later in the day. If anyone has suggestions to better fix the mess i've begun, I'm all ears.


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## swarth (Aug 27, 2013)

Tight work on the Tanaka...


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## ramenlegend (Aug 27, 2013)

that "tear" looks pretty deep, tough fix there


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## CrisAnderson27 (Aug 27, 2013)

I would have replied with 'WHAT the *** were YOU DOING with YOUR KNIFE?!?!'

Seriously...ouch...!


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## Melampus (Sep 19, 2013)

Just keep grinding away past the crack your wife caused.





My progression: 
Steel wool with abrasive powder...
Stainless wire brush with metal polish... 
Atoma 140...
Atoma 600...
Atoma 1200...
Nubutama Bamboo 1200...
Suehiro Rika 5000...
Yaginoshima Jnat...
Ozuku Asagi Jnat...
Microfiber polish with Wenol...


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 19, 2013)

Melampus said:


> Just keep grinding away past the crack your wife caused.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice work, but shouldn't you have moved the shinogi line up to preserve geometry?

Rick


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## gic (Sep 19, 2013)

Get her a dexter russell or equivalent from your local restaurant supply store, cheap, soft forgiving steel and easy to repair....


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## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

I'd check Shun's warranty policy, perhaps you can get a new knife or keep grinding away as Melampus (looks like another 2mm or so). The Shun looks like my mother-in-law's Dexter Russell cleaver (she goes through a lot of chicken bone).


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## ar11 (Sep 19, 2013)

I eventually ground out all the damage on that Shun, with a King 1000! Took forever and pretty much turned it into a tall petty. Only unfortunately part is the balance point of the blade has moved behind the metal bolsters, so the knife feels slightly floaty when cutting. But against everyone's advice got her a NICE Tanaka R2 Santoku :knife: She knows now for any hard/frozen stuff we have the el' cheapo Martin Yan cleaver to smash through it.


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## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

ar11 said:


> I eventually ground out all the damage on that Shun, with a King 1000! Took forever and pretty much turned it into a tall petty. Only unfortunately part is the balance point of the blade has moved behind the metal bolsters, so the knife feels slightly floaty when cutting. But against everyone's advice got her a NICE Tanaka R2 Santoku :knife: She knows now for any hard/frozen stuff we have the el' cheapo Martin Yan cleaver to smash through it.



Wow! You have a lot of patience my friend.


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## daveb (Sep 19, 2013)

ar11 said:


> I eventually ground out all the damage on that Shun, with a King 1000! Took forever and pretty much turned it into a tall petty. Only unfortunately part is the balance point of the blade has moved behind the metal bolsters, so the knife feels slightly floaty when cutting. But against everyone's advice got her a NICE Tanaka R2 Santoku :knife: She knows now for any hard/frozen stuff we have the el' cheapo Martin Yan cleaver to smash through it.



New knives - much cheaper than new wives.


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 20, 2013)

daveb said:


> New knives - much cheaper than new wives.



:lol2:


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## Melampus (Sep 20, 2013)

I don't want anyone to feel like this has been




, but...



Pensacola Tiger said:


> Nice work, but shouldn't you have moved the shinogi line up to preserve geometry?
> 
> Rick


I realize it's only one comparison photo, but if you study it, you can see I only cut off the slightest of angle at the last few mm's of tip. I didn't tap out & just grind it off to save labor, I employed a flat grind on the entire blade road - effectively raising the shinogi from heel to tip. By studying the cladding line, you can see the consistency is carried throughout... clad line to edge - heel to tip. I took off a lot of steel. So much, my Atoma 140 actually feels different after all the removal. Of note, the Urasuki is extremely pronounced on the Suisin. Going in, I was particularly concerned about retaining proper geometry considering how much height I had to grind off the knife, but I'm relatively pleased with how little I took off the back... it feels proportionate. It feels pretty much in line to where a knife would be after having I'd guess the equivalent of 7 years of professional use ground off it. Man, did I have to take off a lot of steel. 

If you look at the Shinogi at the heel on the "after", you can see indications of the rise...





*BEFORE*










*Four friggin hours later...*








It's sharp now...  
[video=youtube_share;bzSX1oEH8U0]http://youtu.be/bzSX1oEH8U0[/video]


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 20, 2013)

Melampus said:


> *Four friggin hours later...*



Only four? That's pretty damn good considering!


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## Melampus (Sep 20, 2013)

*CRIS <>* Four for what's pictured. I spent another 30 minutes sanding/polishing/oiling the Wa & ferrule a day or two later...


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## panda (Sep 20, 2013)

that looked like melted tinfoil, jesus, haven't even seen interns do that kind of damage. don't give up on the shun, you removed the weak part of the steel. a lot of knives wear two layers of socks, you gotta take off the first set before it gets comfortable.


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## Lefty (Sep 20, 2013)

Melampus, that looks amazing, in my books. 

As for forgiving steel, and a knife that cuts pretty well, I'd say your best options are Henckels, when on sale, or a Sabatier stainless. We have a Henckels at work that I will use, occasionally. To be honest, it's better than most knives anyone else uses. They're kind of ridiculed on the forums, because of cost and the fact that they are only ok, will being "the best", according to the Martha Stewarts of the world. With that being said, they're tough, thicker, and durable. You could do a lot worse.

Edit * Globals are good for this, as well.


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## Melampus (Sep 20, 2013)

*LEFTY <>* :beer:


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## ar11 (Sep 22, 2013)

nothing like what melampus did, but here's the fixed shun. still some scratches from thinnin'


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## Melampus (Sep 23, 2013)

It's EXACTLY what I did... fix the blade.:doublethumbsup:


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## Mrmnms (Sep 23, 2013)

Lefty said:


> Melampus, that looks amazing, in my books.
> 
> As for forgiving steel, and a knife that cuts pretty well, I'd say your best options are Henckels, when on sale, or a Sabatier stainless. We have a Henckels at work that I will use, occasionally. To be honest, it's better than most knives anyone else uses. They're kind of ridiculed on the forums, because of cost and the fact that they are only ok, will being "the best", according to the Martha Stewarts of the world. With that being said, they're tough, thicker, and durable. You could do a lot worse.
> 
> Edit * Globals are good for this, as well.


OMG, a voice of reason! I congratulate you>


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