# Best finishing stone for a toothy but polished edge?



## gic (Feb 16, 2015)

I'm curious as to what stone people use for this.

For me, I have fallen in love with Jon's Takashima Awasedo and use it as the last stone for all my sharpening sessions. I just love the edge it gives... (Although I wish he would sell a baseless model...)

TIA


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## Benuser (Feb 16, 2015)

I use a Naniwa Junpaku (AKA snow-white) 8k. Very hard, still an excellent feedback. Isn't produced anymore, so if you find one, don't hesitate.


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## schanop (Feb 16, 2015)

Benuser said:


> I use a Naniwa Junpaku (AKA snow-white) 8k. Very hard, still an excellent feedback. Isn't produced anymore, so if you find one, don't hesitate.



The stone is now limited to just domestic market AFAIK. James, our local vendor source such stone through Aoki Hamono and has it available on his web shop: http://www.knivesandstones.com/naniwa-snow-white/ .


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## Dardeau (Feb 16, 2015)

Love the base. Accept the base. With natural stones the base is your friend and companion. It will get you through hard times without tears.


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## daveb (Feb 16, 2015)

Mine got a little too wet once upon a time and the base popped off. Didn't like it without, so I got out the gorilla glue. Embrace the base.


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## mkriggen (Feb 16, 2015)

gic said:


> Although I wish he would sell a baseless model...)



Ah-hem...http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...l-stones/takashima-awasedo-large-no-base.html

Be well,
Mikey


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## Mr.Wizard (Feb 16, 2015)

I think a case can be made for diamond coated plates. The science of sharp has some wonderful SEM micrographs that relate to this.

we have side view and edge-on images of an edge finished on a DMT 1200 (nine micron) plate:












Noteworthy is the toothy profile combined with a surprisingly narrow (minimum) apex.



> The Chosera 1k produces an edge width in the range of 0.5 &#956;m, while the DMT 1200 produces a much keener edge, in the range of 0.1 &#956;m. In both cases, there is significant variation in this width along the edge.



Another entry shows edges from Shapton Glass Stones through 16K that you can compare. At least with the methods used by the author of that blog it seems clear that the DMT produces a "toothier" profile and a narrower apex than synthetic water stones of a similar grit.


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## gic (Feb 16, 2015)

Mine just came off as well, I was thinking hot melt glue, can you clamp it without damaging it??


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## Seth (Feb 16, 2015)

One vote for baseless. Like painting one side of a board is my theory. No coatings, no base allows evaporation of moisture evenly on all sides. My only evidence; my tackashima (base and varnish) split horizontally and is now finger stones. Just a theory; like evolution .................


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## daveb (Feb 16, 2015)

gic said:


> Mine just came off as well, I was thinking hot melt glue, can you clamp it without damaging it??



I used cheap Irwin clamps, did not get stupid with pressure and let it cure for couple days. Everybody is fine.

@ Whiz, Have you ever used the plates you describe? You + Plate + Knife? Seems counter-intuitive that diamond plates would provide smoother finish that a stone that will wear away while polishing.


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## Mr.Wizard (Feb 16, 2015)

daveb said:


> @ Whiz, Have you ever used the plates you describe? You + Plate + Knife? Seems counter-intuitive that diamond plates would provide smoother finish that a stone that will wear away while polishing.



No, I have never used the DMT 1200 plate. I do not see why you infer a smoother finish as that is rather the opposite of how I interpret it. The DMT edge appears to have rougher (and therefore toothier) finish but a narrower, sharper apex (or as the scienceofsharp author distinguishes it: "keener"), compared to the synthetic water stones. I hypothesize that this is because there is no loose grit rolling along the surface of the plate to impact the edge, and possibly because of the harder nature of diamond.


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## Eric (Feb 17, 2015)

Sorry but the finish of the Snow White is not "toothy" at all. For that I think of my red aoto or a stone in the 1-5k range. IMO nothing great about the Snow White, I used to own one, but gave it away. Much prefer Chosera 10k or naturals for polished fine, slippery edge, which is appropriate classification of the Snow White, none of which are "toothy". Maybe an a blue aoto but anything higher is just polished. Just my experience. Lots of choices either way, call Jon or check out maxims stuff. Personally, for most home tasks I stop at red aoto, sometimes 5k. I take care to really get rid of the wire edge, and get a long lasting sharp toothy edge on most steels (swedish, white 1, blue 2, ginsanko ). Higher is fun to see mirror finish, but don't find the effort worth it in terms of function. Good luck


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## gic (Feb 17, 2015)

I find the finish on Jon's natural awasedo to be pretty toothy and I think the effective grit on the awasedo is about 8-10k. Are some naturals an exception to Eric's claim?

I also have been experimenting with astropping on a piece of Balsa wood that mixes 1 and 3 micron diamond spray to increase toothiness, still experimenting with that...


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## Adrian (Feb 17, 2015)

To answer the OP question, on my J knives I also use a Naniwa 8,000 grit snow white. I also have a Naniwa pro 10,000 grit that (purely subjectively as I have not microscopically examined the edges) polishes more but does not necessarily result in a better practical edge than the snow white for food cutting. On my German knives I stop at well below 8,000. I do a final strop on leather (as I don't have hard felt) with a commercial stropping compound if I am feeling fastidious. 

You have to hunt for it but the snow white can still be had. I live in London and I imported mine from an Australian supplier called Knives & Stones. Took only a few days.


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## schanop (Feb 17, 2015)

schanop said:


> The stone is now limited to just domestic market AFAIK. James, our local vendor source such stone through Aoki Hamono and has it available on his web shop: http://www.knivesandstones.com/naniwa-snow-white/ .



LOL, James just told me that he no longer sources naniwa through aoki hamono.

Back on topic, nowadays I quite like my hard aoto got from AFrames, for which he claimed that it is kouzaki. It is quite a fine stone, quite hard too, probably about 5k-6k. Kinda my prefer stone to finish a lot of my double bevel knives with.


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## Eric (Feb 17, 2015)

I guess toothy is a matter of opinion. Thinking about it, all edges will be "toothy" if viewed under high enough magnification. Those images of the edge from the dmt are pretty cool. I was referring to what I and I think others typically refer to as a toothy edge, but to each his own, and have fun regardless


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## Framingchisel (Feb 17, 2015)

Can you please provide the source of these images.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Feb 17, 2015)

Framingchisel said:


> Can you please provide the source of these images.



Just right-click on the image and copy the address.

First image is http://scienceofsharp.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/dmt1200_p.jpg?w=600.

Second image is http://scienceofsharp.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/dmt1200_e.jpg?w=600.

The website URL is https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/


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## Ruso (Feb 18, 2015)

I use Bester/Imanishi 8000 on some knives and I like the results. Still toothy with a nice sharp edge.


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## Framingchisel (Feb 18, 2015)

Thanks for the citations above.
*1 to imanishi 8k which I have perma soaked and in some cases sigma power select II 13k used splash and go. I still have trouble using these stones lightly enough and not trying to "sharpen" on them. I am trying for an edge which cuts phone book paper easily, while still having some tooth.


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## Dardeau (Feb 18, 2015)

What policy? I just see a blog with nothing for sale, looks like fair game to me.


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## Dave Martell (Feb 18, 2015)

What's an Imanishi 8k? I never heard of this before.


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## Dave Martell (Feb 18, 2015)

Dave Martell said:


> What's an Imanishi 8k? I never heard of this before.




Never mind, I just got my answer.


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## Ruso (Feb 19, 2015)

Dave Martell said:


> Never mind, I just got my answer.


Does it go by any different name out there by any chance?


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## dream816 (Feb 19, 2015)

After some experimentation, I finish my single bevel knives on either the Hideriyama or Haka stones. It has a nice bite to it that I like.


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## Matus (Feb 19, 2015)

dream816 said:


> After some experimentation, I finish my single bevel knives on either the Hideriyama or Haka stones. It has a nice bite to it that I like.



I do have a Hieriyama and Hakka too (from Maksim) - both very different stones - but I do seem to have problems to get edges that do not slide on tomatoes. Probably wrong technique/deburring I guess.


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## Mangelwurzel (Feb 19, 2015)

Hey Matus - I used to have this problem because I was trying to raise a fresh burr with each stone in my progression and think I must have ended up rounding the edge. When I focussed on simply trying to reduce and remove the burr, while refining the edge, I found this problem went away completely. 

Not sure whether you've also got this problem but thought I'd share in case this helps.


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## Matus (Feb 19, 2015)

Yes indeed - I am trying to raise a burr with each stone (even though I do not try to remove the burr in every step). This works OK up to Gesshin 6000 and if I stop there I get edge that cuts well and still has some bite, but while I do seem to manage to raise a little burr on the Hakka or Hideriyama, I must do something wrong during the burr removal (I try to use the technique Jon shows in his videos) as the edge looses the bite afterwards.


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## dream816 (Feb 19, 2015)

Mangelwurzel said:


> Hey Matus - I used to have this problem because I was trying to raise a fresh burr with each stone in my progression and think I must have ended up rounding the edge. When I focussed on simply trying to reduce and remove the burr, while refining the edge, I found this problem went away completely.
> 
> Not sure whether you've also got this problem but thought I'd share in case this helps.



lus1:

Once I raised a fresh burr on the lower grit stone, I tend to use lesser and lesser pressure on the higher grit stones. I find that the edge at this point is already sharp and excessive pressure may crush the edge.


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## Benuser (Feb 19, 2015)

You raise a burr once, and once only, on your coarsest stone. Then you know sides have met. After that you only refine the edge and make the remaining burr smaller.


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## gic (Feb 19, 2015)

+1 to BenUSer and I note that boy is it easier feeling the burr created on a 240 or a 400 then on a 5000


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## Matus (Feb 20, 2015)

I guess my sharpening process needs a make-over. But I have taken this thread off the topic, sorry for that. Jon is going to get a call soon


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