# question about troubles when raising burr



## r0bz (Mar 18, 2022)

i have a few questions about raising burr
1. what are the reasons behind being unable to raise a burr?
2. why is it easier for me to raise a burr on one side than the other?
3. why is it hard for me to feel the burr ?
4. how do I know if I established a big enough of a burr ? sometimes I can feel something but is it good enough
5.I am only using a sun tiger 800# stone maybe I am not getting burrs because the stone is too high of grit to start with?


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## Infrared (Mar 18, 2022)

*1.* There are two main factors in raising a burr, the sharpening angle and edge thickness. For example, if you sharpen a Wusthof at a five degree angle, it will probably take over 20 minutes to get a burr. Raise the angle to 40 degrees and you'll raise one in a minute or two. 

On the other hand, a very thin knife like a Takamura will only take a few minutes at the five degree angle.

*2*. The simple answer is because the second side takes less work. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

*3.* Assuming you actually are raising one, try using you index and middle finger to feel for one. They are generally more sensitive than the thumb. 

If you still can't feel one, keep grinding and pay attention to the bevel and make sure it's nice and even.

If you still can't feel one, try raising the angle very high (like 30 or 40 degrees) and see if you can feel one after a minute or two. 

*4. *As long as the burr and bevel are even, it should be ok. And there's nothing wrong with making it a little bigger (although it might be hard to deburr).


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## Kawa (Mar 18, 2022)

#2 might also be that you don't put pressure on the right place while doing your 'weaker' side.
You might be hitting the shoulders with more pressure then the very edge.
The niext time you start a knife, try focussing on pressure more towards the edge, putting more pressure 'into'(downwards) the stone. See if it helps. Im not saying more pressure overal, but to change the pressurepoints.

You might be able to see a larger (wider) edge on the side you dont get a burr on, but I dont think that is a law, since you might compensate that by sharpening your 'better' side for a longer time. That way both bevel remain equal.


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## r0bz (Mar 18, 2022)

Kawa said:


> #2 might also be that you don't put pressure on the right place while doing your 'weaker' side.
> You might be hitting the shoulders with more pressure then the very edge.
> The niext time you start a knife, try focussing on pressure more towards the edge, putting more pressure 'into'(downwards) the stone. See if it helps. Im not saying more pressure overal, but to change the pressurepoints.
> 
> You might be able to see a larger (wider) edge on the side you dont get a burr on, but I dont think that is a law, since you might compensate that by sharpening your 'better' side for a longer time. That way both bevel remain equal.


On this side I get a burr easily

this side I have hard time getting burr


I think you are right I sharpen my "weak side" at a lower angle than my "strong side" 
when applying pressure you mean applying pressure closer to the edge?


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## Benuser (Mar 18, 2022)

Use a sharpie and a loupe to find out whether you've reached the very edge. If you're abrading behind the edge there's no burr to be expected — the bevels don't meet yet.


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## r0bz (Mar 18, 2022)

if my stone isn't completely flat will raising burr be impossible or difficult?


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## r0bz (Mar 18, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Use a sharpie and a loupe to find out whether you've reached the very edge. If you're abrading behind the edge there's no burr to be expected — the bevels don't meet yet.


if its behind the edge then I must increase my sharpening angle yes ?


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## Kawa (Mar 18, 2022)

r0bz said:


> On this side I get a burr easily
> 
> this side I have hard time getting burr
> 
> ...




Yes, but also check how you put your pressure. I can have my fingertips as close to the edge as possible, if the direction I put pressure towards to is not enough downwards (into the stone), but 'away from the edge'/towards the spine, you will still dont raise a good burr. You will probably round the shoulder or convex the bevel.
Its not only about the amount of pressure, or the pressurepoints on itself, the direction is also important.


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## r0bz (Mar 18, 2022)

i don't remember what video it was or who said to do that but I apply pressure with only the hand that is not holding the knife (the hand that is holding the knife the only thing I do with it controls the angle but I do not apply pressure with it only at the heel section)
is it okay?


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## Kawa (Mar 18, 2022)

That should be correct.
Just don't translate that into 'the holding hand should be like a loose elastic'. You need to lock it, so you can keep your edge flat on the stone and in the same angle.
If the holding hand is too loose, you will be very wobbly.

I think a nice tip for you is (I watched the movies, so the edge-away side is your hard side): with your holding hand, try to put some pressure 'as if you close the gas throttle of a motor cycle'. Dont raise the angle that way, just feel the pressure balance towards the very edge that way. That way you compensate for hitting the shoulder too much instead of the edge.
Might feel unnatural in the beginning, but you get used to it. It helps you grind the very edge instead of going to flat


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## Pie (Mar 18, 2022)

r0bz said:


> if my stone isn't completely flat will raising burr be impossible or difficult?


Not impossible, but when you’re starting out a dished stone has a good chance of messing with you. Say for example you’re on the backside (difficult?) side of the knife, and the knife edge is perpendicular (across) the stone - you may only make contact on the high spots of the stone, which may severely screw with what you’re trying to do. 

When starting out, keeping them flat is a good idea unless you know how dished your stone is, and how to manage where you’re grinding. 

Good luck!


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## Forty Ounce (Mar 18, 2022)

__


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## captaincaed (Mar 19, 2022)

Ignore ryky


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## r0bz (Mar 19, 2022)

Forty Ounce said:


> __



i already watched it but thanks


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## natto (Mar 19, 2022)

Using pessure on the edge leading stroke raises less burr than pressure on the edge trailing stroke. Mud reduces burrs. This way edges can be ground without noticeable burrs.


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## Benuser (Mar 19, 2022)

r0bz said:


> if its behind the edge then I must increase my sharpening angle yes ?


No.
If the bevel has been rounded by poor stropping or there's a microbevel, you better go on until the very edge has been reached. 
If the blade is the same soft stainless one we have been speaking about before you better first get rid of the actual edge before setting a bevel. Have the blade flat on a relatively coarse stone — I would take a 320 or so — and go on until the bevel is entirely gone. Again, check with a marker and a loupe. Soft stainless tend to be highly abrasion resistant so doing this with a 800 makes no sense. It will take forever and with the time, errors are more likely to occur. Removing the original edge will get you fresh steel that's more likely to hold. Once the original edge removed making a new one will only require a few strokes. 
About your burr problem: first get the coarse stone flat. If the dishing is visible with a naked eye it has come much too far. And remember: burrs aren't always a reliable criteria. They may occur before the very edge has been reached. With some steels, like Global's Cromova, they are hard to raise and hard to get rid of. And if you believe you're done, a new one will pop up after a while in an unexpected place. 
I don't know whether it's your case, but poor steel with clustering carbides is likely to behave unexpectedly. Sharpening it on stones is a nightmare. Send it out. Where I live a decent sharpening will cost about €7. From then on you may try to maintain it yourself on a flat medium-coarse stone.
Better start your sharpening journey with a simple, inexpensive, thin carbon steel blade to get the basics: raising a burr, chasing it, getting rid of it.


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## r0bz (Mar 19, 2022)

Benuser said:


> but poor steel with clustering carbides


what is that exactly ?


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## r0bz (Mar 19, 2022)

natto said:


> Using pessure on the edge leading stroke raises less burr than pressure on the edge trailing stroke. Mud reduces burrs. This way edges can be ground without noticeable burrs.


my stone is a sun tiger 800# it produces a lot of stone mud and I saw korin knifes sharpener saying to leave the mud on the stone...
i put pressure only on the edge trailing strokes when trying to raise the burr

Do you mean if I sharpen with the mud I won't be able to feel a burr or get it?


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## Benuser (Mar 19, 2022)

r0bz said:


> what is that exactly ?


Carbides are hard particles, in a soft environment. Their volume and sometimes grouping together has to do with the heat treatment and with the steel composition. In the case of Cromova makers were obviously looking for a soft steel with a lot of bite — what the general public will feel as 'sharp'. In other cases it is caused by poor control over the steel's composition as it was quite common with early Chinese knives on the European market. Expect chipping even when being soft, edge instability and very difficult stone sharpening. All reasons to have them sharpened with powered tools.


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## natto (Mar 19, 2022)

r0bz said:


> Do you mean if I sharpen with the mud I won't be able to feel a burr or get it?


I like to debug problems step by step. What about painting the edge and let it dry. A few strokes, on either side will show where material is removed. A clean stone with enough water is needed. Mud removes paint all over the place.





r0bz said:


> I saw korin knifes sharpener saying to leave the mud on the stone...


Mud and pressure speed up material removal, thats fine. A clean stone with less pressure is more precise.


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## r0bz (Mar 19, 2022)

natto said:


> Mud reduces burrs.


can you explain please what exactly you mean by that it will be gladly appreciated (I am confused)


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## Pie (Mar 19, 2022)

Mud consists of abrasive particles, water and bits of metal. It helps with abrading material (such as burrs) along with the fresh exposed abrasive attached to the stone. The mythical “3 body abrasion”. 

Idk, this is almost besides the point/too much info if you’re still looking for your burr. Mud or not, your stone should be able to remove enough material to create a burr as well as remove it. 

If you’re not getting the burr, or inconsistently, the sharpie on the edge will help a lot. Make sure to check after each stroke and remember which angle hits the whole bevel.

Tbh the whole thing is only as complicated as you want to make it out to be. The actual idea and concept of sharpening is very simple, but the execution is the tough part. Try not to get hung up on the details until the basics are solid. Keep at it my friend!


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## Bico Doce (Mar 19, 2022)

When I started out sharpening I felt like I couldn’t raise a burr. I watched videos (some from Ryky ) and each person in the video is flying thru the sharpening process, like 10 strokes in a few seconds fast. So I thought I had to do it as well. I think that tripped me up. Once I slowed down and focused on precision strokes, constant checking for feedback on angle consistency I got much better. Going fast ended up taking me longer to achieve the intended outcome. The saying “slow is smooth and smooth is fast” definitely applies to sharpening, at least at the beginning


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## Delat (Mar 19, 2022)

Raising that first burr was also a mystery for me, but it turned out I was trying to do it on a stone that was both dished and loaded and much finer than I thought (I was using an old stone and had no clue what I was doing). When I tried with a fresh, flat coarse stone the burr popped up pretty quickly ( I bought an SG500 and Atoma 140). 

So for me, throwing money at the problem bridged the gap caused by my lack of experience. You don’t have to do what I did, but make sure your stone is flat and the surface is clean and not loaded. I think you’ve gotten advice on how to do that on other threads already.

Ideally you want to do want @Benuser said and get a fresh clean bevel… but when you’re a complete novice looking for feedback (a burr) that can be both tricky and frustrating if it takes a while. If your knife is just a tester and you want the feedback and satisfaction of raising a burr without getting super frustrated, then sure go ahead and raise the angle. Just realize it might not be a useful long term edge and you’ll eventually have to cut a fresh, real bevel.


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## r0bz (Mar 19, 2022)

Pie said:


> Mud consists of abrasive particles, water and bits of metal. It helps with abrading material (such as burrs) along with the fresh exposed abrasive attached to the stone. The mythical “3 body abrasion”.
> 
> Idk, this is almost besides the point/too much info if you’re still looking for your burr. Mud or not, your stone should be able to remove enough material to create a burr as well as remove it.


I was able to create a burr on my "strong side" of the sharpening at 3 passes pretty fast but this was when the stone was not muddy (I started the sharpening at the strong side) but when I switched sides to the "weak side" the stone was muddy and I wasn't very successful at creating a consistent burr I could feel at some parts of the blade but not on the whole length
does this having hard time raising the burr on that side have to do something with the mud ?


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## Pie (Mar 19, 2022)

More likely consistency and pressure, although I have no way of knowing for sure. You can cheat by using your thumb as an angle guide with the non-knife hand. It works pretty well but try not to abrade your thumb.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 20, 2022)

Simple answer. You aren't reaching the edge. Either the knife was so rounded it needs to be ground down until an apex is formed. Or your sharpening angle is off, and its leading to you not grinding any metal on the apex.


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## r0bz (Mar 20, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> the knife was so rounded it needs to be ground down until an apex is formed.


if that's the case should use a coarser stone than my 800#?


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## Bico Doce (Mar 20, 2022)

r0bz said:


> if that's the case should use a coarser stone than my 800#?


You could use a 800 but it will take longer than say a 400. The courser you go the less forgiving it can be when sharpening because you’re removing metal faster/making deeper scratches


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## r0bz (Mar 22, 2022)

is the q tip method he shows reliable identifying a burr ?
should I try it


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## jwthaparc (Mar 22, 2022)

I've never tried the qtip thing, but it should work.

I say go for it with the 400, it will make it easier for you to know what you're looking for in the future. 400 isn't crazy coarse or anything, but it should make things a bit easier for you.

You can get it done with the 800 though.


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## big_adventure (Mar 22, 2022)

If you feel a burr on one side but can't raise on from the other, it's basically guaranteed that you are sharpening at too low of an angle. If you feel the burr at some points along the edge but not at other points, it means that your angle isn't hitting the edge along the entire surface. This might be because you are changing your angle, and it might be because the existing bevel isn't exactly even.

Given that it's on your weak side, and that you are a somewhat inexperienced sharpener, it's likely that your angle isn't consistent.

The best thing to do, if you don't want to take "chances" on your good blade, go down to the dollar store or a supermarket, pick up a cheap blade, and go to town on it. Just practice angle retention and consistent burr raising. You don't care about the blade, this is all about developing your skills.

The sharpie trick is really useful for ensuring you are getting the bevel. But you probably shouldn't _need_ it for more than a handful of reps before you can feel what you are doing.

Once you get good, you can raise a burr on a well-maintained knife in seconds even on a high-grit stone (3K+). 800 is fine.


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## r0bz (Sep 19, 2022)

i find this also myself that i have hard time feeling for burrs because of that


Vertigo said:


> I've found the swarf buildup on my fingers from certain stones can greatly dampen my ability to feel burrs, especially smaller ones, and often have to scrub my fingertips clean to check my progress. Only with really muddy stones though and only because after 20 years of manning a flattop grill, my fingers are pretty much numb anyways.


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## Benuser (Sep 19, 2022)

Use your nails.


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## M1k3 (Sep 20, 2022)

Swipe the edge across a towel with a lot of lint.


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## r0bz (Sep 21, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Swipe the edge across a towel with a lot of lint.


what is lint ?


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## Kawa (Sep 21, 2022)

I guess it the fluffy hairy stuff that a towel distinguishes from any other cloth.

I'm guessing, but what other property can a towel have


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## Benuser (Sep 21, 2022)

Earlier I've suggested the use of a permanent marker and a loupe. A very reliable method to make sure you've reached the very edge. Even if for some reason you can't feel the burr you may sure it's there if the very edge has been reached on the opposite side. It's even more reliable then looking for a burr, as with some steels burrs occur even before the very edge got reached. As for abrading the burr: you may use the marker and loupe again. It sounds fastidious but is a very safe method.


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## Benuser (Sep 21, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I guess it the fluffy hairy stuff that a towel distinguishes from any other cloth.
> 
> I'm guessing, but what other property can a towel have


A linen towel is slightly abrasive. Not enough to be helpful with soft stainless, though.


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## Bolt Thrower (Sep 21, 2022)

r0bz said:


> i have a few questions about raising burr
> 1. what are the reasons behind being unable to raise a burr?
> 2. why is it easier for me to raise a burr on one side than the other?
> 3. why is it hard for me to feel the burr ?
> ...


1. Sharpening at an incorrect angle. Your sharpening angle is too acute if you are unable to effectively raise a burr.

2. You are hitting the correct angle on one side, and not getting it on the other. Many knives come with edges that are not perfectly even, i.e. one side could be ground at 12 degrees and the other 16. Or it can be user error.

3. I'm not sure. I will say the higher grit stone you use, the harder burrs are to detect. There are different methods you can try. I rub my thumb down the edge, spine to edge direction.

Under 1,000 grit is easy to detect by feel. For higher grits I prefer looking for burrs instead of feeling for them. For this a loupe is invaluable.

4. There is no need to ever raise a large burr. The point of raising one is to make sure you are consistently grinding the full length of the edge. This can be checked by any burr large enough to be detected.

Raising one larger than needed means you'll waste steel grinding it off later. In fact, once you are at a comfortable level of experience, you may choose to intentionally avoid raising a burr. I do. I have knives I've sharpened at the same angles for 5-10 years. I can tell by audio feedback and the feel on the stones if I'm hitting the apex or not. I try to avoid raising burrs during touch-ups because it takes longer than not raising one. I only use them when setting an edge or reprofiling an edge to a new angle.

5. 800 grit stone should be fine for being able to detect the burr. Coarser stones make it easier to detect but 800 isn't so high that it'll make it impossible.

One last thing:

Don't get overly reliant on burrs. Just because you raise one doesn't mean you've established a clean bevel. One stroke that's at too obtuse of an angle and you've raised a good burr, even if your bevel isn't fully set. Assuming you aren't doing convexed edges or microbevels, the full width of the bevel, from apex to the shoulder transitioning into the primary grind, it should be a flat, clean surface.


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## r0bz (Sep 22, 2022)

Bolt Thrower said:


> 1. Sharpening at an incorrect angle. Your sharpening angle is too acute if you are unable to effectively raise a burr.
> 
> 2. You are hitting the correct angle on one side, and not getting it on the other. Many knives come with edges that are not perfectly even, i.e. one side could be ground at 12 degrees and the other 16. Or it can be user error.
> 
> ...


very interesting 
how do you sharpen without relying on burrs if you can expand on that it is very interesting


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## Benuser (Sep 22, 2022)

Only possible with very well maintained knives and a lot of experience, and depending on the steel and the stone. The auditory and tactile feedback will indicate when the very edge has been reached. However, the preconditions don't seem fulfilled. In your case, the use of a permanent marker and a loupe are an alternative.


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## Kawa (Sep 22, 2022)

Use the loupe under a source of light and look for that shiny flash on the edge, like @Benuser has in his avatar.
Then walk the knive from heel to tip.
A burr isnt the size of a microbevel, it's more like a hair thickness or even less. But when you have the light spot on the edge and turn the knight little by little, you can see it when the light spot is almost 'over' the edge.
You can also easily see this way if the edge is nice and straight. A few misspots can still give and very sharp edge, but if you were all over the place, back to the coarse stone.


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## Bolt Thrower (Sep 22, 2022)

r0bz said:


> very interesting
> how do you sharpen without relying on burrs if you can expand on that it is very interesting


like benuser said, it comes down to maintaining your knives well, and general experience.

for example I have a small pairing knife I sharpened at about 8 degrees per side, then applied a 15 degrees per side microbevel. lets say its dulled to the point I can roughly scrape off arm hairs.

through a combination of years of experience sharpening at that same angle, and knowing how sharpening at too acute of an angle gives a slicker feel like the knife is skating across the stone vs biting into it when I'm hitting the apex, I can tell by feel if my angle is good.

So I'll take a slightly dulled but still useable knife and touch it up quickly by feel on the line, and get it to cleanly shaving sharp.


minimizing burr formation is the key to a clean apex. whether you raise one or not, whether you polish up to 10,000 grit or use a rough 200 grit edge, the quality of your cutting edge comes down to minimizing the presence of a burr.

There are various schools of thought of how best to do this. Some rely on strops. Some cut into cork to try to remove the burr.

*What I have found works best for me and my sharpening technique, is to finish my sharpening session with the absolute lightest stroke I can manage while still making full contact with the cutting edge.*

for those familiar with the spyderco sharpmaker, to give some perspective, my final strokes on one are using a feather light touch to the point I don't have to secure the base in any way (left hand holding it down, a clamp, not even a wet towel under it) and it won't move. I'm using such light pressure I can take my left hand off the base.

Using a bench stone free hand the same concept applies. My last few strokes are using the lightest pressure I can, *using less than the weight of the knife itself*.

Doing that and alternating sides each stroke is how I finish every edge.

Another thing that helps once you've got the basics down, is learn to sharpen to shaving sharpness at a lower grit than you can today. Once you do that, repeat at a lower grit. 

You may surprise yourself down the road. The first time I achieved a shaving sharp edge, it took a stone in the 1,200-1,500 grit range. Than I did it on 1,000 grit. Then 800. Then 500. 400. 300. Eventually I got to the point where I could make a 200 grit edge sharp enough to roughly shave, no stropping or refining of the edge.

Here is an image of a finely sharpened razor blade right out of the box VS my favorite pocket knife sharpened to a (roughly) shaving sharp 200 grit edge:







Despite the incredibly coarse finish I managed to refine the apex fairly well by using an extremely light touch.

Here's a few more 200x images of that edge. I really like coarse edges for utility knives, and rarely take any cutting tool past 800-1,000 grit these days aside from culinary knives.











and a quick video of it scraping away some arm hair - Vidsli - Simple video sharing

TLDR - Burrs are an invaluable tool for learning or ensuring your new bevel was properly set, but 90% of achieving the sharpest edge possible comes down to minimizing burr formation as best as possible.


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## Bolt Thrower (Sep 22, 2022)

Kawa said:


> Use the loupe under a source of light and look for that shiny flash on the edge, like @Benuser has in his avatar.
> Then walk the knive from heel to tip.
> *A burr isnt the size of a microbeve*l, it's more like a hair thickness or even less. But when you have the light spot on the edge and turn the knight little by little, you can see it when the light spot is almost 'over' the edge.
> You can also easily see this way if the edge is nice and straight. A few misspots can still give and very sharp edge, but if you were all over the place, back to the coarse stone.


I agree with everything you wrote but what I bolded. Microbevels are about the same size as a burr, a hairs width. Hence the micro in their name. I've seen a lot of folks grind secondary bevels into their edge and call it a microbevel, so I wanted to point that out.


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## r0bz (Sep 22, 2022)

Bolt Thrower said:


> TLDR - Burrs are an invaluable tool for learning or ensuring your new bevel was properly set, but 90% of achieving the sharpest edge possible comes down to minimizing burr formation as best as possible.


if that is the case then why every single how to sharpen video goes like this
1. set burr on one side
2. set burr on opposite side
3. deburr
.... ?


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## Bolt Thrower (Sep 22, 2022)

r0bz said:


> if that is the case then why every single how to sharpen video goes like this
> 1. set burr on one side
> 2. set burr on opposite side
> 3. deburr
> .... ?


because most people are not very good at sharpening and need to rely on a burr to determine whethet they're grinding the full edge or not. 

It's counter productive on a well maintained knife once you reach a certain skill level. It's really only needed when reprofiling or establishing a new edge, not for touch-ups or simple sharpenings.

If I have a work knife sharp enough to cut but dull enough it isn't at peak performance, I'll touch it up. I'll use one light stroke then alternate to the other side, trying to actively avoid raising a burr. I can tell whether or not I have the right angle with visual inspection and feeling the edge for increased sharpness. 

Raising a burr then eliminating it takes more time and can leave the apex weaker.

There is a lot of bad info on the internet when it comes to sharpening. I taught myself how to sharpen in the late 90's / early 2000's by using books and internet guides. I had to unlearn a lot of bad habits, like using too obtuse of an angle (most guides suggest 20 degrees per side which is thicker than I run my hatchets), relying on strops to deburr, and putting mirror edges on every cutting tool out there. Most cutting tools work better 10-15dps, you can deburr on stones, and coarse 100-600 grit edges have superior edge retention for many applications. But most guides won't tell you these things. I had to figure them out through trial and error over 25 years.


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## Benuser (Sep 22, 2022)

r0bz said:


> if that is the case then why every single how to sharpen video goes like this
> 1. set burr on one side
> 2. set burr on opposite side
> 3. deburr
> .... ?


One wants to make sure the bevels actually meet. Only once that concept is understood, you may aim for reducing an unnecessary big burr, and, under some special conditions, sharpen without raising one on purpose. As said before, that requires some experience — and sensitivity — and will work only with some steels and some stones. You're not there, yet.
Your problem was if I remember correctly in sharpening a soft stainless on a 800 stone. If you're unable to feel a burr exploring burr-less sharpening isn't the first remedy I would be looking for, as you won't notice the difference. I'm wondering why you prioritise side roads and erect obstacles instead of just learning sharpening with a simple carbon steel knife, a marker and a loupe. The basics are raising a burr, chasing it, and getting rid of it.


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## Kawa (Sep 22, 2022)

If you can't feed a burr and you don't mind exposing your cheap stainless steel as a practising tool:
Increase the angle by a lot, to like 30 degree per side or so.
Use enough pressure on a coarse stone.
Sharpen like a few minutes on one side. I bet you can feel a difference with your fingers when checking the left and right side of the edge. 

Thats your burr.


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## Benuser (Sep 22, 2022)

Bolt Thrower said:


> It's counter productive on a well maintained knife once you reach a certain skill level.


This is not exactly the case, here.


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## Bolt Thrower (Sep 22, 2022)

Benuser said:


> This is not exactly the case, here.


agreed, which is why I gave OP suggestions for creating and detecting burrs. Sorry if I sidetracked things a bit.


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## r0bz (Sep 22, 2022)

Bolt Thrower said:


> ike using too obtuse of an angle (most guides suggest 20 degrees per side which is thicker than I run my hatchets),


(english not primary language) does too outbuse angle mean that you sharpen at a much lower angle than 20 degrees ? at what degree do you sharpen stainless knives comared to a higher rockwell knifes ?



Bolt Thrower said:


> It's counter productive on a well maintained knife once you reach a certain skill level. It's really only needed when reprofiling or establishing a new edge, not for touch-ups or simple sharpenings.


what does establishing a new edge mean ?
do you do your touchups with edge leading stropping motions ?
isnt at some point you need to establish a burr because the tuch ups dont return the knife to peak sharpness ?
how does stroping at edge leading when the knife is already sharp but you want to "touch it up" return the sharpenss? (by abrading the burr ?) ?

when would you want to establishing a new edge, ?


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## mengwong (Sep 22, 2022)

Dude, you should really pick up something like this, you will get a lot of visibility and feedback. The questions that you are asking, you will be able to answer for yourself.



https://www.amazon.com/JARLINK-Illuminated-Jewelers-Magnifier-Foldable/dp/B078N34WZR


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## Benuser (Sep 22, 2022)

Obtuse: the contrary of sharp. Far above what's needed. Here 20° per side when much lower would give a better result.
On Blue Belgian — 4k, not to be used with soft stainless — I can restore a fresh from the stones level of sharpness, provided it is done in time. Light edge leading strokes, followed by a few ones along the edge. Minimal burr formation. Due to the character of the abrasives the minimal burr is abraded without creating a new one as is common with synthetics. The very edge is only refreshed. If you don't do it in time, you have to abrade more steel: the steel is fatigued and the edge is rounded, apart from all kind of damages. This is when touching up makes little sense and a full sharpening is needed, beginning with re-establishing the geometry by thinning behind the edge with a coarse stone.
This information will hardly be helpful to the OP who is struggling with sharpening a soft stainless, a 800 stone and above all his own procrastination. There is no deburring method against that.


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## r0bz (Sep 23, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Obtuse: the contrary of sharp. Far above what's needed. Here 20° per side when much lower would give a better result.
> On Blue Belgian — 4k, not to be used with soft stainless — I can restore a fresh from the stones level of sharpness, provided it is done in time. Light edge leading strokes, followed by a few ones along the edge. Minimal burr formation. Due to the character of the abrasives the minimal burr is abraded without creating a new one as is common with synthetics. The very edge is only refreshed. If you don't do it in time, you have to abrade more steel: the steel is fatigued and the edge is rounded, apart from all kind of damages. This is when touching up makes little sense and a full sharpening is needed, beginning with re-establishing the geometry by thinning behind the edge with a coarse stone.
> This information will hardly be helpful to the OP who is struggling with sharpening a soft stainless, a 800 stone and above all his own procrastination. There is no deburring method against that.


I have successfully sharpened the knife i can shave hairs with it ...... cuts tomatoes very nice .... i did not overrefine the edge which i used to do before and then the tomatoes cant be cut 
i used to strop on the leather too much
it's just that my burr sensing game is not so good when my hands are wet ......


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## Bolt Thrower (Sep 23, 2022)

I never even thought about that. I use my stones dry. I have a lot harder of a time feeling a burr with wet hands too.


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## r0bz (Sep 23, 2022)

Bolt Thrower said:


> I never even thought about that. I use my stones dry. I have a lot harder of a time feeling a burr with wet hands too.


what kind of stones are they that you can use em dry ?


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## Benuser (Sep 23, 2022)

Expect waterstones to get glazed and loaded when used dry. The idea of waterstones is to deliver permanently fresh abrasives of the original grit. If used dry, the particles will rapidly refine. Have often used a Chosera 2k dry to refresh carbon edges. End result not 3k as when used wet, but in the 6k-range. 
No good idea with soft stainless, as it doesn't hold any polished edge. Another side road that won't help you.


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## mengwong (Sep 23, 2022)

Dhrystones


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## r0bz (Sep 23, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Expect waterstones to get glazed and loaded when used dry. The idea of waterstones is to deliver permanently fresh abrasives of the original grit. If used dry, the particles will rapidly refine. Have often used a Chosera 2k dry to refresh carbon edges. End result not 3k as when used wet, but in the 6k-range.
> No good idea with soft stainless, as it doesn't hold any polished edge. Another side road that won't help you.


i am not planning to use the whetstones dry...
that is stupid


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## Bolt Thrower (Sep 23, 2022)

r0bz said:


> what kind of stones are they that you can use em dry ?


ceramic and diamond stones are all I use, and they can be used dry. I compared various oil and water based stones to stones capable of being used dry and decided I preferred the convenience of the latter.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Sep 23, 2022)

I use my diamonds wet.

My diamonds only see use when it is applicable for the steel or perhaps a rough task in the lower grits. I only have plated diamonds so no high speed stuff and they wear faster so no sense using them when they aren't needed and surely not dry.

To each their own.


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## Bolt Thrower (Sep 24, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I use my diamonds wet.
> 
> My diamonds only see use when it is applicable for the steel or perhaps a rough task in the lower grits. I only have plated diamonds so no high speed stuff and they wear faster so no sense using them when they aren't needed and surely not dry.
> 
> To each their own.


I have DMT stones and spyderco ceramics that have been used dry for 20 years and still work great. They both seem to do fine dry or wet.

When it comes to kitchen knives the diamond stones are only for setting the initial edge, repairing damage or reprofiling to a thinner angle. I use 800-5,000 grit ceramics to maintain the edge. Coarse diamond stones remove metal fast.


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## jwthaparc (Sep 25, 2022)

Bolt Thrower said:


> I never even thought about that. I use my stones dry. I have a lot harder of a time feeling a burr with wet hands too.


I'm hoping you're talking about diamond plates, or Spyderco stones. 

Otherwise use some water or oil!


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## jwthaparc (Sep 25, 2022)

Bolt Thrower said:


> I have DMT stones and spyderco ceramics that have been used dry for 20 years and still work great. They both seem to do fine dry or wet.
> 
> When it comes to kitchen knives the diamond stones are only for setting the initial edge, repairing damage or reprofiling to a thinner angle. I use 800-5,000 grit ceramics to maintain the edge. Coarse diamond stones remove metal fast.



That's what I get for not scrolling lol.

I will add. I do find my diamonds will get clogged if I don't at the very least rinse them off during use. 

I get better results just starting with water on them.


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## Bolt Thrower (Sep 25, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> That's what I get for not scrolling lol.
> 
> I will add. I do find my diamonds will get clogged if I don't at the very least rinse them off during use.
> 
> I get better results just starting with water on them.


I keep a wet rag with me and wipe the diamond stones down when they start getting loaded with bits of steel.


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## Benuser (Sep 25, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> That's what I get for not scrolling lol.
> 
> I will add. I do find my diamonds will get clogged if I don't at the very least rinse them off during use.
> 
> I get better results just starting with water on them.


Add a drop of dish soap.


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## M1k3 (Sep 25, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Add a drop of dish soap.


Like magic on Venev diamond stones.


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