# petty vs specialized knives (deba, honesuki etc)



## rickg17 (Apr 30, 2019)

OK, fine, you got me. I need.... more... knives. 

Current stock are some German steel stuff (a chef's and 6" utility) plus a 210mm Wakui Gyuto and a 165 Tadefusa hiraki (think petty, but thicker) and a 165mm TF nakiri. 

Occasionally I'll be using the Tadefusa for something and want the same basic profile but for another ingredient that I can't cut without washing it (i.e. I'll be cutting raw chicken and then need to slice some veggies). 

One thought is to get specialized knives... but I'm a home cook and not breaking down multiple chickens or whole fish daily. So as cool as a nice deba or honesuki sounds, I wonder if other home cooks just use multiple Pettys when they want to use smaller knives than their gyuto.


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## Paraffin (Apr 30, 2019)

(raises hand)

I'm a home cook and I don't even use a gyuto (horrors!). I like a nakiri for veg prep, and dedicated slicers for soft protein.

Because it's home cooking and I'm not breaking down anything huge, I don't need a long knife. I do have a long, old Wusthof slicer for things like turkey carving, but here are my two main soft protein knives:

1) Yoshikazu Ikeda 190mm petty in Aogami/Blue #1 carbon steel.

I think of it as a "mini sujikiki." I can get it super sharp, and it has great edge retention because I only use it for soft protein. It's just long enough to draw-cut sideways through a boneless skinless chicken breast for cutlets. I buy fresh seafood at the local market like halibut and salmon, and this is also great for skinning and slicing smaller fish filets where you're not working near bones (where I'd use a Deba instead).

2) Kohetsu honesuki 150mm in Aogami Super carbon steel, stainless clad.

A much less expensive knife with a good grind. I use this for breaking down chicken, trimming fat and silverskin from beef and pork before grinding. Anything where I want a more robust knife than the long Ikeda petty knife. It's not "surgical" like the Ikeda petty, but it's a good tough knife that's easy to sharpen.

I have other knives for different things, like two matched cheap Chinese cleavers for chopping pork or fish for Chinese meals. But those two knives above get constant use for anything I'm cooking with boneless chicken, fish, pork, or beef. I'm a huge fan of the "big petty knife" for that kind of thing.


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## btbyrd (May 1, 2019)

If I don't want to use a gyuto, I use a 180mm bunka (which is pretty much a small gyuto). I use petties primarily for butchery tasks or doing precision quasi-paring work. I can take down a 20lb turkey with a 120mm petty. But using a garasuki is much more elegant.


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## rickbern (May 1, 2019)

Rick, I don’t see a lot of different use cases between most petties and your existing 6” utility knife. If that knife is serviceable maybe better to diversify. 

I find my honesuki gets a lot of use, first around bones like lamb or pork loins or roast chicken but also as a short knife I can use on a board. 

And I’m with bt on this. I use a long 240 gyuto for most things, supplement it with a short gyuto (165) and look at petties and honesukis as useful specialized knives.


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## Carl Kotte (May 1, 2019)

For breaking down chicken (and the like) I use an old sharpened cleaver. It is nice, elegant and fun. I can make precise cuts and I can smash into bone without worrying about chipping. I bought the cleaver second hand. 
Might a cleaver be something for you too?


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## Patrick Gilmartin (May 1, 2019)

I am a pro, and I use a 180mm gyuto for those tasks. Broke down a case of ducks with it yesterday. Specialized knives are cool, but I'd say spend your money on the km knives you'll be using 75% of the time, and make due for those other rare projects


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## Ochazuke (May 1, 2019)

Yeah... I also think most home cooking could be done with just a petty. A 180 gyuto sounds like a decent choice. This might be a nice opportunity to try a bunch of petty knives from different makers! I know Watanabe has a bunch of unique petty knives up. While you’re at it snag a Heiji, a Ginga. Then send me whichever one you like the least.


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## Cashn (May 1, 2019)

I love my specialized butcher knives but, in reality, at home anything sharp will get the job done just fine on one chicken or fish. At work a 240mm yo deba does most of the heavy lifting, but I don’t really do much prep anymore so that rarely comes out. If you want something cheap to try out that I thought was excellent at a lot of tasks I’d get one of the forgecraft “slicers” its 8inches with a decent curve at the tip. Like a mini scimitar. Not as nimble as a dedicated boning knife when you can’t see what your doing but it’ll fillet fish and portion protein much better than a boning knife.


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## rickg17 (May 1, 2019)

Thanks all. 

I do use the Wakui a lot but right now my knife types fall into basically this... 210mm or so chef/gyuto or 165mm/6" utility/petty. Outliers are the TF nakiri and a cheap cleaver plus a bread knife which, face it, ain't a prep knife. 

It's not so much that I *need* more knives but that sometimes I find myself wanting to reach for another knife if the petty is dirty, etc and... should that be another petty? Maybe a smaller one (120mm?) or a more specialized knife. Or maybe I just realize that I don't actually need one and live with these...


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## fimbulvetr (May 1, 2019)

The munetoshi petty from JNS is inexpensive, basically a small gyuto in shape (so, a different critter than your current petty), and might cheaply satisfy your desire for a new knife while being a great addition to prep. It’s all I need to cook a small meal for two, but it’s also great for disjointing and boning out chicken, taking pork loin off the bone, etc.


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## rickg17 (May 1, 2019)

This one? http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/munetoshi-kurouchi-petty-165mm/ 

or this one http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/munetoshi-kurouchi-170mm-wa-butcher/ ?


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## rickbern (May 2, 2019)

I have the first one, the 165. That’s the one I called a short gyuto above. Great knife to have around the house. It’s not enough to get free shipping, I paid maybe thirty bucks to ship it to the USA, still a screaming deal.


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## rickg17 (May 2, 2019)

Enabler! I ordered it this AM.


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## rickbern (May 3, 2019)

Wow, nobody’s ever called me that before! Hope you enjoy it.


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## rickg17 (May 3, 2019)

well I have to blame someone for my lack of self-control . Thanks for the pointer.


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## gman (May 3, 2019)

specialized knives are awesome and you want them all, eventually, but as a home cook, to cover your bases you really only need 3 knives:

240mm gyuto for most of your chopping and slicing
150mm petty for trimming
and a cheap western cleaver for bones and hard ingredients like nuts and chocolate


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## rickg17 (May 3, 2019)

Yeah, got those. With another petty on the way.


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## Carl Kotte (May 4, 2019)

gman said:


> specialized knives are awesome and you want them all, eventually, but as a home cook, to cover your bases you really only need 3 knives:
> 
> 240mm gyuto for most of your chopping and slicing
> 150mm petty for trimming
> and a cheap western cleaver for bones and hard ingredients like nuts and chocolate



Three is a magic number, but I am not sure about the suggested size of the Gyuto, nor am I sure about the need for a petty and a cleaver. Needless to say, these suggestions should be taken as rules of thumb (and the fact that people tend to vary in what they cook complicates things), still I would hesitate to offer that trio as the obvious choices.


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## Matus (May 4, 2019)

I like to use specialized knives - if not for anything else, than for the excuse to buy more knives. But I did went from a honesuki to the 165 Mazaki petty (the pointy one) for deboning. It really works well for that purpose.


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## gman (May 5, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> Three is a magic number, but I am not sure about the suggested size of the Gyuto, nor am I sure about the need for a petty and a cleaver. Needless to say, these suggestions should be taken as rules of thumb (and the fact that people tend to vary in what they cook complicates things), still I would hesitate to offer that trio as the obvious choices.



is your objection to the 240 gyuto that it is too big for a home kitchen? the advantage of a longer gyuto is that it alleviates the need to add a dedicated knife for slicing. if somebody wanted to stick to a 180 or 210 gyuto for chopping, then they'd probably want to look at adding a suji for slicing tasks.

what magical 3 knife combo would you suggest?


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## Carl Kotte (May 5, 2019)

No, I wouldn’t say that it is too big for a home in general (although that might certainly be the case in some instances), and I agree about the good making features you highlight. And personally, I am with you. I use a 240 for almost every task (perhaps more than I should actually). It is just that I know from experience that many find a 240 off putting for several reasons - because of length, size, weight - and find no use for it. That is what I objected to. The ’all you need’-talk sounds a bit like a solid recommendation. But it would be sad if someone took that recommendation to heart and ended up with three knives only using one of them (petty 150 mm).

All things considered, it may not be wise to come with sweeping generalisations about these things, but if I were forced to answer (I somewhat hesitatingly say) my 3 knife combo would be: chef knife/Gyuto of appropriate size, serrated knife (for bread and all kinds of crazy stuff) and something small and sharp like a 80-120 mm for various tedious tasks.
That trio kept me going when I was working professionally, and I have heard similar recommendations from others.
I am not claiming that you can do everything with this 3 knife combo, but it takes you far. In addition, I think this combo would result in a fairly even use (in the sense that one does not end up doing everything with a Gyuto).
But as said, not super comfortable in offering this 3 knife combo.


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## Stonetherapy (May 5, 2019)

I currently use several three knife combos all the time in some sort of random rotation, lol...


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## Carl Kotte (May 5, 2019)

Stonetherapy said:


> I currently use several three knife combos all the time in some sort of random rotation, lol...



Haha, me too!


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## rickg17 (May 5, 2019)

Rather than list specific knives I think of it like this - A home cook really just needs 1) something to break down meat and veggies into the shapes you need for a dish, 2) you need a smaller version of this to do finer work like removing silverskin, etc and for some people a truly small knife for things like trimming fruit and the like. So... a gyuto/santoku/chef's, a petty/utility and a paring knife. 

This assumes we're talking knives needed to prep meals vs serving knives like a bread knife. 

Past that, it's all personal preference and what an individual cooks. If you break down fish regularly then yeah, a deba will be nice. Completely unneeded, though, if you buy fillets for dinner. Same for a honesuki etc. Most home cooks don't break down whole animals into their parts but if you do, specialized knives are both useful and fun.


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## Carl Kotte (May 5, 2019)

rickg17 said:


> If you break down fish regularly then yeah, a deba will be nice. Completely unneeded, though, if you buy fillets for dinner. Same for a honesuki etc. Most home cooks don't break down whole animals into their parts but if you do, specialized knives are both useful and fun.



Yeah, that sounds right to me. I like specialized knives a lot, debas in particular. But debas are bit demanding. If the goal is to break down fish many will find a thin flexible knife easier to use. They are not obvious collector’s items though.


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## chinacats (May 5, 2019)

gman said:


> specialized knives are awesome and you want them all, eventually, but as a home cook, to cover your bases you really only need 3 knives:
> 
> 240mm gyuto for most of your chopping and slicing
> 150mm petty for trimming
> and a cheap western cleaver for bones and hard ingredients like nuts and chocolate



Who's home? I own a 12" chef that isn't too big... but is too big for my home... and for that matter so is a 240... last custom was 190. As to 3 knives necessary some would add a bread knife, others a parer. My current 3 would be a gyuto (sized accordingly), veg cleaver and a paring knife (ok 4 counting my new nakiri)


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## rickg17 (May 5, 2019)

I think we're talking about 3 different categories: I'd call them "need" vs "can work with" vs "No real compromises"

Need: Face it, for most of us we could get by with a single knife in the gyuto range (could be a santoku, etc) for the vast majority of what we do at home. It wouldn't be optimal and some tasks would be more awkward but... we could make it work.

Can Work With: This is where I think most of the "you only need these 3 or 4 knives" comes in. I can work with a gyuto, petty and maybe a paring for almost everything I do and be OK.

No real compromises: Here's the sky is the limit thing. Where we have a deba for the once or twice a month fish breakdown, a honesuki to butcher that weekly chicken etc. Sure we could use a petty or whatever but there's joy in using a purpose built tool and satisfaction in being able to use it well.


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## Carl Kotte (May 6, 2019)

rickg17 said:


> This assumes we're talking knives needed to prep meals vs serving knives like a bread knife.



To lump serrated knives together with serving knives seems wrong. Hey, you can use some bread knives for slicing and dicing. You can even handle whole fish with a bread knife with OK results (as always it depends on who holds the knife). I wouldn’t, but that is another story. Serrated knives can easily be used in prep.


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## Carl Kotte (May 6, 2019)

rickg17 said:


> I think we're talking about 3 different categories: I'd call them "need" vs "can work with" vs "No real compromises"
> 
> Need: Face it, for most of us we could get by with a single knife in the gyuto range (could be a santoku, etc) for the vast majority of what we do at home. It wouldn't be optimal and some tasks would be more awkward but... we could make it work.
> 
> ...



This tristinction is good and clarifies things. Well done!


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## Michi (May 6, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> This tristinction is good and clarifies things.


As best as I know, "tristinction" is not a word. But it does work, congratulations!


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## Carl Kotte (May 6, 2019)

Michi said:


> As best as I know, "tristinction" is not a word. But it does work, congratulations!



Haha, thanks! You are right, I guess, but - and this is anecdotal evidence - I have seen that word in print somewhere. Would ’threefold distinction’ be better? Or am I simply missing some obvious idiomatic expression for slicing a matter into three?


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## rickg17 (May 6, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> To lump serrated knives together with serving knives seems wrong. Hey, you can use some bread knives for slicing and dicing. You can even handle whole fish with a bread knife with OK results (as always it depends on who holds the knife). I wouldn’t, but that is another story. Serrated knives can easily be used in prep.



I suppose, but people always call the serrated knife in these discussions a bread knife, indicating use as well as style and for me a serrated knife used to slice bread isn't really part of prep, but of serving. It's an artificial distinction in many ways (is a paring knife used to slice strawberries for a dish prep or serving), but that's how I think of it.


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## Carl Kotte (May 6, 2019)

rickg17 said:


> I suppose, but people always call the serrated knife in these discussions a bread knife, indicating use as well as style and for me a serrated knife used to slice bread isn't really part of prep, but of serving. It's an artificial distinction in many ways (is a paring knife used to slice strawberries for a dish prep or serving), but that's how I think of it.



Fair enough! I was unaware of that terminological point. Thanks for the info.


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## Geigs (May 6, 2019)

My needs as a home cook are really pretty basic- I use a petty for prep of small vegetables and fruit. I use a Takeda 270 for slicing most proteins and larger vegetables/fruit. And a cheap Boning Knife for breaking down chickens and deboning legs of lamb. I have a cleaver, santokus, bread knife, a heavy deba (almost no use, I use it to crush garlic as I prefer to fillet fish with a thinner knife and my fish are never big enough to need a deba). I have 4 gyutos from 210-270 that are really surplus to requirements, but I Need a couple more to play with different steels....


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