# Wanting to try another J-Nat. Saw this one.



## PalmRoyale (Oct 3, 2016)

I like the little Japanse polishing stone I bought recently so much that I want to try another J-Nat. However, I don't want to spend a lot of money on my fist big stone. I saw this stone that's being sold on a German site. It's described as a Yamaichi Toishi Shiageto and the size is very nice at 19x7x2.5cm. The price isn't too bad either at 120. Maybe someone here knows something about this type of stone? My own reasoning is they glued to a wooden base for a reason which would indicate it's a softer stone. But maybe I'm way off here :biggrin:


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## Pensacola Tiger (Oct 3, 2016)

Lots of reasons to glue a stone to a wooden base, the "softness" has little to do with it. Many times a stone is glued to prevent it breaking in two, or to give more effective height to a thin stone. Sometimes just "because". 

The best advice I can give is that which many other members have given - buy your Japanese naturals from a trusted source.


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 3, 2016)

The source is an official Robert Herder dealer, I'd say that's trustworthy.


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## Steampunk (Oct 3, 2016)

PalmRoyale said:


> The source is an official Robert Herder dealer, I'd say that's trustworthy.



The implication was not that the source you buy it from is merely_ financially trustworthy_, but that the source is trustworthy in selecting quality Japanese natural stones... The potential quality variation is quite high, some stones even containing 'toxic' defects that can make the stone unusable (Or at least in some cases requiring work to fix, like digging out isolated inclusion lines.), have poor cutting abilities, inconsistencies that would make them unacceptable for applications requiring a uniformly fine edge [razors], or make them more likely to crack/fissure. Buying from an expert in the field eliminates some of those risks, although some people still take that risk in the effort to find a deal, or a rare stone. I personally am not one of them. Maksim @ JNS is one of the most trusted sources on this forum for J-Nats; you buy some peace of mind that your stone is not going to be a dud. He also stands behind his products, which most natural stone sellers do not. 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 3, 2016)

I've sent an e-mail to the Robert Herder company to ask them if they selected the stone and if they did can they tell me more about it. Lets see what they say.


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## bennyprofane (Oct 3, 2016)

I recommend that you write Shinichi Watanabe, you tell him what you are looking for and how much you can spend and he might make you a good offer. He has been amazing in answering emails and I loved every single stone I got from him.

What I have come to learn its better to spend a little more than to spend twice. Personally, as a first stone I would get a Suita, I have quite a few jnats now but if I could only have one it would be my Suita. I got a Ohira Renge Suita (185x65x20) at Metalmaster for 80$ and it gave me amazing results (even though I have a nicer one now).
A vendor like Herder wont be able to tell you a lot about the stone so perhaps better to look around a little more.


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## Steampunk (Oct 3, 2016)

I would also look at an Aiiwatani Koppa from JNS, and maybe a tomo nagura (The fine slurry on J-Nats is the opposite of coticules, in and that the particles are worn and fractured in sharpening and this finer mud is used to refine the edge, whearas on Coti's the slurry mud is diluted to achieve that fine edge.); this should get you his free international shipping, and it is a trusted stone. I have one (A Lv.3), and can comment to its quality. It isn't a _super-fine_ razor finisher (Although it still may be a little finer than the J-Nat you currently own.), but for tools or knives (Chisel/plane iron microbevels, or Japanese knives/chisels with soft cladding in simpler carbon steels like Hitachi Shirogami. It also puts a nice edge on low-carbide European SS and carbon steels; I don't know if you carry a SAK or an Opinel, but this will but a shaving edge on it very efficiently.) it would be an excellent intro choice. My La Verte, La Veinnete, and La Dressante are all somewhat finer than the Aiiwatani, but it comes close inline with my La Gris with some mud breakdown, and is finer than my BBW's. It will auto slurry with soft cladding, but otherwise needs the nagura to help it do so. 

I like Coti's better on PM cutlery steels than J-Nats, but I've never sharpened PM-V11, and as far as I know it might be okay on this stone. It won't cut like a fast 6K synth, but it may have at least some effect on it (You never know until you try! I'm sometimes still surprised at what steels certain stones work well with.), although my money is still on Coti's. 

- Steampunk


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 3, 2016)

I've sent several e-mail to this Maksim dude from JNS but he's not answering. I'll try metal masters instead. I'm in The Netherlands so it has to be a good deal because of international shipping and customs.

And btw, Robert Herder is the company that makes the famous windmill knives. You'd think a company that has been making knives for as long as they have knows something about stones. But then again, maybe they don't, who knows.


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## bennyprofane (Oct 3, 2016)

Metalmaster doesnt answer emails but he sometimes has some really good deals. As Ive said, I recommend writing Watanabe, youll have an answer within a day, he has a lot of stones which arent on his site, so just tell him what you need. 

http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/mail/captmail.cgi

And btw that Herder store you refer to just deals with Herder knives but is not owned by Herder, its run by http://www.spielhagen.org


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## daveb (Oct 3, 2016)

Maxim isn't responsive enough so you're going in a snit to MM?

Somewhere the Gods are laughing:sly:


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 3, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Metalmaster doesnt answer emails but he sometimes has some really good deals. As Ive said, I recommend writing Watanabe, youll have an answer within a day, he has a lot of stones which arent on his site, so just tell him what you need.
> 
> http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/mail/captmail.cgi
> 
> And btw that Herder store you refer to just deals with Herder knives but is not owned by Herder, its run by http://www.spielhagen.org


And how am I supposed to know who this Watanabe is if no one tells me? I just thought he's the guy from metal masters. Japanese natural stones are new to me, keep that in mind.

And as fas as I know, that store is an official Herder dealer.


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## bennyprofane (Oct 3, 2016)

Yeah, it's a Herder dealer but it's not Herder, as you can see, they run lots of online shops: http://www.spielhagen.org/onlinehandel/

Also, I own a few Herder knives, it's probably the best traditional German quality knife company (which is of course debatable). But I wouldn't expect them to particularly savvy on jnats. 

Sorry, Watanabe is a renowned blade smith: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/biograph/

He has lots of jnats: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/ (scroll down)


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 3, 2016)

I've sent an e-mail to Watanabe. Lets see if he has something for me.


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 3, 2016)

daveb said:


> Maxim isn't responsive enough so you're going in a snit to MM?
> 
> Somewhere the Gods are laughing:sly:


I'm not going to wait forever you know.


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## bennyprofane (Oct 3, 2016)

PalmRoyale said:


> I've sent an e-mail to Watanabe. Lets see if he has something for me.



Cool, let us know...


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 4, 2016)

I've heard back from Watanabe. He recommended me a Shiro Suita for my chisels. The price is also very good. I've done some reading about the guy so I trust his reputation and I'm going to buy it.


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## bennyprofane (Oct 4, 2016)

Great, it would be nice to see it and know how you like it, once you have it.


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## Badgertooth (Oct 4, 2016)

You can't go wrong with Watanabe. I've never had a response from Maksim, I wouldn't take it personally, and it is 100% your prerogative to take your custom to someone who is willing to take the time with you. Would
Love to hear about your stone when it arrives


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 4, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> You can't go wrong with Watanabe.


I've specifically asked him for a fast stone for my chisels so if he selects this particular Shiro Suita I'm going to assume that's the best stone for the job. Now I just have to wait on Paypal to clear the payment and shipping from Japan.


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 6, 2016)

So this is the stone I ordered from Watanabe. It looks beautiful. I love the renge pattern. It's a thin stone at 14mm thick but this is reflected in the price. I will probably glue it to a piece of aluminium with some epoxy. But even tho it's thin, it's still twice as thick as any of my coticules.


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## bennyprofane (Oct 6, 2016)

Looks nice! Whats the size?


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## ynot1985 (Oct 6, 2016)

Shin is awesome to deal with.. I think I have like 5-6 stones from him biw


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## Badgertooth (Oct 6, 2016)

ynot1985 said:


> Shin is awesome to deal with.. I think I have like 5-6 stones from him biw



Wait till you kids see what our Tony is bringing back from his Japanese adventure


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 7, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> Looks nice! Whats the size?


145x80x14mm.


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## Badgertooth (Oct 7, 2016)

I got a really similar one from him. They could be brother and sister stones. It is awesome, and I think you've made a smart buy there.


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 8, 2016)

Is yours also a thinner stone?


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## Badgertooth (Oct 8, 2016)

Yeah about 15mm


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## Badgertooth (Oct 8, 2016)

It's one of my very best stones. Takes a little to get going if you use too much water or not using a nagura but if you are sharpening tools you should see black slurry very soon


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 8, 2016)

I really don't know what to expect in terms of hardness and speed because so far my only frame of reference with natural stones are my coticules. I do like how it looks though, it's not just plain boring yellow like my coti's.


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## Badgertooth (Oct 8, 2016)

I know almost nothing about cotis but I did get a Pierre dite levant recently and I love the edge it leaves.


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## Badgertooth (Oct 8, 2016)

Let us know what you think of your Ohira


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## PalmRoyale (Oct 8, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> I know almost nothing about cotis but I did get a Pierre dite levant recently and I love the edge it leaves.



Coticules really are superb stones. The edge my hard La Dressante leaves on my razor is just so smooth and enjoyable. My La Nouvelle Vein is perfect for knives because it's very fast and produces the right amount of bite. And then there's the La Dressante and La Veinette I use at work and they're perfect for tools.

And yes, I will let you all know how I like my Shiro Suita.


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