# Question about TF Maboroshi



## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

I recently bought a TF Maboroshi 240 Gyuto. Its pretty thin behind the edge, but to my surprise it wedges on larger vegetables. I was cutting a large white onion at work, when i tried to cut the onion in half, it stop complete half way through. Did i get one with a bad grind? or is this normal for TF Maboroshi?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Post some pics including the choil. That could be quite informative. 
Have you put your own edge on the blade or still working with the factory edge?
Did you buy from TF direct or one of the US/Canada retailers?


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

I bought it from Knifewear, and i have not sharpen it yet. It came sharp ootb. Whats the best way to upload pics?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

I use imgur. Copy the link into the reply.

Whats the weight of your 240, Wa or Yo?


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

It weights 227g
https://imgur.com/a/fdPTnDn


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## nyc (Sep 16, 2019)

I’m very interested in the views here as I’m considering picking up one when I’m in Tokyo year end.
I’ve read that TFs need to be thinned. That said there was another opinion I read where thinning was discouraged and that it should be left more as a “workhorse”.


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## nyc (Sep 16, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> It weights 227g
> https://imgur.com/a/fdPTnDn


Looks thin. I wouldn’t expect wedging. But the grind looks convexed on the right, and slightly flat on the left.


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## M1k3 (Sep 16, 2019)

Are the sides to rough? If they aren't smooth enough, the knife will grab onto product and not move easily.


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

It does not feel rough. Although as I tried to feel for the blade after i wash it with soap, it feel a bit sticky to the touch. Not sure if that was the cause for wedging.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Curious why the kanji is different. Thats not standard TF Mab marking.
Edit. Looks like Knifewear have spec'ed a diff marking for their Mabs. 

Maybe the pic but the edge profile doesn't look right. Does it hit the board smoothly without holes as you progress from heel to tip?


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

I did a google search on TF Maboroshi to see what the normal marking looks like and it looks like its stamped. The one i have looks more chiseled. Maybe its a knifewear thing?


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Curious why the kanji is different. Thats not standard TF Mab marking.
> Edit. Looks like Knifewear have spec'ed a diff marking for their Mabs.
> 
> Maybe the pic but the edge profile doesn't look right. Does it hit the board smoothly without holes as you progress from heel to tip?


Good eye, it does have a bit of gap on the flat spot.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

That could be indicative of poor grind further up the blade and that could be contributing to the problem. When did you receive the knife. I would call Knifewear tomorrow and discuss the problem. Insist on a replacement.


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## M1k3 (Sep 16, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> It does not feel rough. Although as I tried to feel for the blade after i wash it with soap, it feel a bit sticky to the touch. Not sure if that was the cause for wedging.



Maybe there's lacquer or something on it?


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

Its about 3 weeks. I went and polished and rounded the spine tho. i wander if that would cause some problem for replacing. This knife have the roughest spine I've ever seen.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> Maybe there's lacquer or something on it?


TF doesn't use lacquer. Its SS clad.


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> Maybe there's lacquer or something on it?


I dont remember if I removed the lacquer on it or not. I'll try to remove it again and see if there is any difference.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> Its about 3 weeks. I went and polished and rounded the spine tho. i wander if that would cause some problem for replacing. This knife have the roughest spine I've ever seen.


That could be an issue. They should be able to fix the edge though and ensure any low spots in the blade road are removed. Its probably a good experience to always check blades for overgrinds, edge weirdness and ensure the blade is straight OOTB.


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

I'll contact them tomorrow and see what they will be able to do. Thanks


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Just be aware that to fix holes/overgrinds the height of the blade may be reduced and you might lose some length if the blade road is reprofiled.


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Just be aware that to fix holes/overgrinds the height of the blade may be reduced and you might lose some length if the blade road is reprofiled.


Thanks for the heads up.


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## Garm (Sep 16, 2019)

It's very difficult to say from just these pictures, as the light can play tricks on you, but to me it almost looks like it was ground to accommodate a left handed user.
In the pictures the grind looks mirrored compared to every example of a TF I've handled, with a flatter right face and more convexed left face.
As to your original question, a Maboroshi should absolutely NOT wedge much or at all when halving an onion, so I would definitely talk to Knifewear about it.


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

Update: I contacted Knifewear and they are fine with me returning or exchange it even with the polished spine. Great customer service over there.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> Update: I contacted Knifewear and they are fine with me returning or exchange it even with the polished spine. Great customer service over there.


Superb service. Have you decided to get a replacement?


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

I think I’ll probably just return it and hoping to buy one in person down the line.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> I think I’ll probably just return it and hoping to buy one in person down the line.


If you like the TF aesthetic and Ht, but feel burned by the poor grind, which your example clearly exhibited, take a look at the Morihei Hisamoto W#1. Its basically a rebadged Maboroshi from TF with a Jnat edge and blade road polish (by Morihei). This eliminates those frequent 'oddities' that come out of the TF factory. I have a 240 with Ku finish arriving tomorrow and I'll report back once I've used it for a bit and compare to my 210 Denka and Nashiji.

https://carbonknifeco.com/products/morihei-hisamoto-white-1-gyuto-240mm-fine-finish


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## CiderBear (Sep 16, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> If you like the TF aesthetic and Ht, but feel burned by the poor grind, which your example clearly exhibited, take a look at the Morihei Hisamoto W#1. Its basically a rebadged Maboroshi from TF with a Jnat edge and blade road polish (by Morihei). This eliminates those frequent 'oddities' that come out of the TF factory. I have a 240 with Ku finish arriving tomorrow and I'll report back once I've used it for a bit and compare to my 210 Denka and Nashiji.
> 
> https://carbonknifeco.com/products/morihei-hisamoto-white-1-gyuto-240mm-fine-finish



That looks lovely. Do they have wa handles?


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## Koakuma (Sep 16, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> If you like the TF aesthetic and Ht, but feel burned by the poor grind, which your example clearly exhibited, take a look at the Morihei Hisamoto W#1. Its basically a rebadged Maboroshi from TF with a Jnat edge and blade road polish (by Morihei). This eliminates those frequent 'oddities' that come out of the TF factory. I have a 240 with Ku finish arriving tomorrow and I'll report back once I've used it for a bit and compare to my 210 Denka and Nashiji.
> 
> https://carbonknifeco.com/products/morihei-hisamoto-white-1-gyuto-240mm-fine-finish


Oh wow, that’s good to know. I might have to try that. Too bad it’s oos. I would love to hear from you how it compares to your proper TF.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> That looks lovely. Do they have wa handles?


Unfortunately only Western handle in 2 flavors. The one above with the polished/hammered finish and this one which is the knife I'll be receiving.

https://hitohira-japan.com/products/aaa-020-fa240?variant=6946416099381


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## CiderBear (Sep 16, 2019)

@Corradobrit1, cool, thank you for letting me know. Is this a new line?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Its a fairly obscure variant that flew under the radar. I don't think many were produced. Most of Hitohira's western distributors got a couple of each version and length.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 16, 2019)

Oh one is SS clad and the other soft iron which is really rare for TF


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## lowercasebill (Sep 17, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> I did a google search on TF Maboroshi to see what the normal marking looks like and it looks like its stamped. The one i have looks more chiseled. Maybe its a knifewear thing?





Koakuma said:


> I did a google search on TF Maboroshi to see what the normal marking looks like and it looks like its stamped. The one i have looks more chiseled. Maybe its a knifewear thing?






TF engraving my knife


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## Koakuma (Sep 17, 2019)

lowercasebill said:


> View attachment 61271
> TF engraving my knife


did you bought yours in person?


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## CiderBear (Sep 17, 2019)

@Koakuma looks like Ai&Om has an iron clad 240mm in stock for even cheaper than a normal TF. Jump on it (before I do ) https://www.aiandomknives.com/produ...lue-2-yo-gyuto-240mm-pakka-handle-fine-finish


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Its a fairly obscure variant that flew under the radar. I don't think many were produced...



AFAIK there is nothing unqiue or rare about them, they are just TF's OEM configuration(s). You can also find them at Tsubaya, althought Tsubaya lists the Gyuto in stainless, they sell other shapes in both stainless and the KU iron cladd. TF webstite's retail prices were generally used/matched by the OEM dealers for many years. The KU irond clad are basic, entry level versions sold at low prices. Makes sense for TF as the OEM stuff therefore does not compete as much with his own-name versions directly on either price/features, and the knives are more plausibly 'hosue' brand in trade dress (no finger choils, etc).


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## lowercasebill (Sep 17, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> did you bought yours in person?


No. Gaku at TF was kind enough to send me the pictures.


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## CiderBear (Sep 17, 2019)

@HRC_64 any idea where/ if I can find a Tsubaya KU iron-clad with wa handle? I'd love to give it a try


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> AFAIK there is nothing unqiue or rare about them, they are just TF's OEM configuration(s). You can also find them at Tsubaya, althought Tsubaya lists the Gyuto in stainless, they sell other shapes in both stainless and the KU iron cladd. TF webstite's retail prices were generally used/matched by the OEM dealers for many years. The KU irond clad are basic, entry level versions sold at low prices. Makes sense for TF as the OEM stuff therefore does not compete as much with his own-name versions directly on either price/features, and the knives are more plausibly 'hosue' brand in trade dress (no finger choils, etc).


You may well be right. I can only go by what I see on other vendor websites. What seems to be the USP is the Morihei Jnat finish that really helps to eliminate the biggest issue with TF ie inconsistent grinds. For this alone I think they are worth seeking out. Mine is on the USPS truck today, and its one of my most keenly anticipated knife purchases. TFTFTF


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## Koakuma (Sep 17, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Koakuma looks like Ai&Om has an iron clad 240mm in stock for even cheaper than a normal TF. Jump on it (before I do ) https://www.aiandomknives.com/produ...lue-2-yo-gyuto-240mm-pakka-handle-fine-finish


Thanks


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Koakuma looks like Ai&Om has an iron clad 240mm in stock for even cheaper than a normal TF. Jump on it (before I do ) https://www.aiandomknives.com/produ...lue-2-yo-gyuto-240mm-pakka-handle-fine-finish


Its their last one. Actual specs are a little different to the ones they pulled from the Hitohira website. The one Ai and Om have is 248x55 and weighs 257g. Those specs might be more appealing to some. It does seem to have above average handle F&F.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @HRC_64 any idea where/ if I can find a Tsubaya KU iron-clad with wa handle? I'd love to give it a try



Tsubaya is a store...


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Its their last one. Actual specs are a little different to the ones they pulled from the Hitohira website. The one Ai and Om have is 248x55 and weighs 257g. Those specs might be more appealing to some. It does seem to have above average handle F&F.


And sold. Someone made a wise choice.


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## CiderBear (Sep 17, 2019)

Nice!! I hope it's @Koakuma


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## Koakuma (Sep 17, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Nice!! I hope it's @Koakuma


Its me  thanks again


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## CiderBear (Sep 17, 2019)

Awesome. I hope you like this one 

@HRC_64 so they don't sell online? :/


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## Koakuma (Sep 17, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Awesome. I hope you like this one
> 
> @HRC_64 so they don't sell online? :/


I will update when the knife comes in.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @HRC_64 so they don't sell online? :/



They have a website and sold online for many years.


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## parbaked (Sep 17, 2019)

[QUOTE="CiderBear, post: so they don't sell online? :/[/QUOTE]

They do not sell directly online anymore. You have to visit the store or buy from one of their retailers.
https://tsubaya.co.jp


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## parbaked (Sep 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> They have a website and sold online for many years.


They stopped selling online a while back, but their website with prices and products is still online to view.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 17, 2019)

parbaked said:


> They stopped selling online a while back...



Just around the time other middlemen started to sell them online


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 18, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> I will update when the knife comes in.


Just got mine. I'll post some pics later along with my other 'unique' Ku finished TF knives. At first look its a really nicely finished blade. 247x53 240g. No holes, low spots or sharp edges (except the cutting edge). Balances perfectly at the 2 finger pinch grip. Morihei did a nice job on the Jnats which I think takes the regular TF Maboroshi line to a new level.


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## wind88 (Sep 18, 2019)

The Hisamoto stainless is Maboroshi.

The Hisamoto ku ironclad is Nashiji?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 18, 2019)

wind88 said:


> The Hisamoto stainless is Maboroshi.
> 
> The Hisamoto ku ironclad is Nashiji?


No. Confirmed by TF directly. Morihei Hisamoto Ku is just soft iron cladding in lieu of the SS. Same core steel and HT. In other words the Ku is not prelaminated bar stock but is forge welded in-house by TF. The final blade aesthetic is 'nashiji' though as opposed to the semi-polished/hammered Maboroshi


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## wind88 (Sep 18, 2019)

good to know i got a 240 ku a few months ago too!


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 18, 2019)

wind88 said:


> good to know i got a 240 ku a few months ago too!


How do you like it?


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## wind88 (Sep 18, 2019)

I haven’t had the chance to use it yet and it’s not with me currently. I liked the profile and looking forward to put it in action once it comes back to me.


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## Koakuma (Sep 24, 2019)

Just got the knife in today. Did a quick test on an apple, no wedging yet. The grind looks good too. I’ll post pics later.


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## Koakuma (Sep 24, 2019)

Here are some pics. https://imgur.com/a/b2x1si0

The handle remind me of the Maboroshi that I had. This is the first knife where I can actually see the San mai construction on the spine. The spine itself is a little bit better polished than the Maboroshi but that isn’t great since Maboroshi’s spine was one of the worst I’ve seen. Because it’s ku finish, I don’t think I should polish it. This blade is thinner than Maboroshi, spine at the heel is 2.9mm. Does not have much of taper at all. Will update more after taking it to work and see how it performs.


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## CiderBear (Sep 24, 2019)

@Koakuma thank you! Keep us posted

I was told by a vendor that morihei will not be producing the 240mm variation of this knife anymore. If so you truly got the last one


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## Koakuma (Sep 24, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Koakuma thank you! Keep us posted
> 
> I was told by a vendor that morihei will not be producing the 240mm variation of this knife anymore. If so you truly got the last one


If that is the case, then i have you to thank for letting me buy the last one.


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## CiderBear (Sep 24, 2019)

@Koakuma haha, I was just teasing you. At the specs @Corradobrit1 posted it was way too chunky for me. How do you like it so far?


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## Koakuma (Sep 24, 2019)

I am very happy with it so far. Test cut an onion and a big carrot with it. It cuts like dream. I can tell the grind is a lot better than the Maboroshi that i got. Sharpness is just as good as the Maboroshi. can't wait to take it to work and put it through the pace.


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## lemeneid (Sep 24, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> No. Confirmed by TF directly. Morihei Hisamoto Ku is just soft iron cladding in lieu of the SS. Same core steel and HT. In other words the Ku is not prelaminated bar stock but is forge welded in-house by TF. The final blade aesthetic is 'nashiji' though as opposed to the semi-polished/hammered Maboroshi


The Ku Morihei is Blue2 IIRC. The non-Ku version is White1.


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## wind88 (Sep 24, 2019)

It was mislabelled as blue 2 but is actually white 1 for all the TF Hisamoto.


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## lemeneid (Sep 24, 2019)

wind88 said:


> It was mislabelled as blue 2 but is actually white 1 for all the TF Hisamoto.


my mistake then, always assumed it was a blue2 "denka"


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## lemeneid (Sep 24, 2019)

wind88 said:


> It was mislabelled as blue 2 but is actually white 1 for all the TF Hisamoto.


also, i rather get the SS morihei version. TF's cladding isn't gummy at all, and real easy to thin with too


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## nyc (Sep 25, 2019)

I’m thinking of picking up a TF Maboroshi when I’m in Tokyo year end. The options are either from TF direct or via Tsubaya. Maybe Morihei if they have any. 
Thing is, I’m keen on the finger rest at the choil and a Wa handle and it does appear that the OEM ones via Tsubaya for instance don’t have it - at least that’s what it appears to be on their website. Anyone familiar with the variations of TF available at either Tsubaya or Morihei?


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## CoteRotie (Sep 25, 2019)

Never mind. (No option to delete a post?)


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

nyc said:


> I’m thinking of picking up a TF Maboroshi when I’m in Tokyo year end. The options are either from TF direct or via Tsubaya. Maybe Morihei if they have any.
> Thing is, I’m keen on the finger rest at the choil and a Wa handle and it does appear that the OEM ones via Tsubaya for instance don’t have it - at least that’s what it appears to be on their website. Anyone familiar with the variations of TF available at either Tsubaya or Morihei?


Any reason you want the finger notch? In my experience it provides little to no functional benefits and merely reduces the length of useable cutting edge effectively rendering a 210 gyuto to a 195-200. Go to the shop and pick out a special local sale-only version. It will be a neat souvenir, plus you may get a chance to say hi to TF IV himself and the shop dog.


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## Koakuma (Sep 25, 2019)

I think one reason to want the TF notch is its iconic to TF knives. If I get the chance to go to Japan, I will definitely make a trip to buy a TF in person.


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## parbaked (Sep 25, 2019)

The TF notch doesn't make the effective length any shorter unless you choose to use it that way.
It provides a place for your middle finger so that you can choke up on the blade even more than without it.
One can still use a regular pinch grip, on the emoto, without using the notch. 
I don't see any negative.
I like!


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## parbaked (Sep 25, 2019)

If you like TF knives, visit the shop. 
There are usually unique handles and old stock that didn't sell to peruse. (excuse the bad phone pics)


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

parbaked said:


> The TF notch doesn't make the effective length any shorter unless you choose to use it that way.
> It provides a place for your middle finger so that you can choke up on the blade even more than without it.
> One can still use a regular pinch grip, on the emoto, without using the notch.
> I don't see any negative.
> I like!


What I mean is that when you choke up in a 2 finger pinch grip the heel is pushed further back when the blade has the notch. Edge length with and without the finger notch is the same.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

parbaked said:


> If you like TF knives, visit the shop.
> There are usually unique handles and old stock that didn't sell to peruse. (excuse the bad phone pics)
> View attachment 61784
> View attachment 61785


Yes, red handles and urushi are the typical shop-only offerings. Then there are those little one-off specials that have been gathering dust for years, waiting to be discovered. I think I could spend hours in the shop and workshop area out back.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> I think one reason to want the TF notch is its iconic to TF knives. If I get the chance to go to Japan, I will definitely make a trip to buy a TF in person.


Thats as good a reason as any


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## parbaked (Sep 25, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> What I mean is that when you choke up in a 2 finger pinch grip the heel is pushed further back when the blade has the notch. Edge length with and without the finger notch is the same.


You miss my point.

With the notch , you can still pinch grip in the same place as if the knife didn't have a notch.
The notch doesn't impact the regular pinch grip except that your middle finger isn't rubbing against the choil.
You don't have to choke up. It's an option.

The notch ALSO allows you to choke up, in addition to the regular pinch grip.
Therefore one can pinch grip in two places instead of just one.
You get more choices..win win.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

parbaked said:


> You miss my point.
> 
> With the notch , you can still pinch grip in the same place as if the knife didn't have a notch.
> The notch doesn't impact the regular pinch grip except that your middle finger isn't rubbing against the choil.
> ...


Yes, that is true. I usually choke up with middle finger as far as the blade allows, so it all depends how you address the knife.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 25, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> I think one reason to want the TF notch is its iconic to TF knives. If I get the chance to go to Japan, I will definitely make a trip to buy a TF in person.



Gyutos are traditonally western handled in Japan because they are "western knives" (ryo).

TF notch is was originally an 'innovation' since it mimic the emoto grip (from a wa-handle)
on a knife without an emoto---ie, TF's standard western-handled knife--

IMHO if you order a WA handle get without a notch since its useless.
IMHO if you order a YO handle get WITH a notch in larger sizes (like 240)

On smaller YO-knives its not standard (see his 150), 
for reasons mentioned above by CorradoBriit.


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## nyc (Sep 25, 2019)

Thanks for the feedback.
I think the finger notch is distinctively TF. That’s the main reason I would have it. Looks like I’ll be heading to his store then.


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## nyc (Sep 25, 2019)

parbaked said:


> If you like TF knives, visit the shop.
> There are usually unique handles and old stock that didn't sell to peruse. (excuse the bad phone pics)
> View attachment 61784
> View attachment 61785


Nice! That’s quite a lot of choice. Is that the old stock display?


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## parbaked (Sep 25, 2019)

1st picture are red handled Denkas on the top shelf and regular Maboroshi on the bottom shelf.
The 1st knife on the left on the bottom shelf is a Maboroshi santoku with handle from a magnolia tree growing outside the shop.
TF took me outside to show me where he cut a branch off. I didn't buy it because it was not stabilized and had huge gaps!

2nd picture are single bevel knives. the old stock and urushi handled Denkas were in boxes under the single bevel knives.

I always call ahead to see what days TF is in the shop (the factory is in a completely different location).
If TF is there he will also scratch your name in your knife:


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## nyc (Sep 25, 2019)

@parbaked would you say that there’s a fair amount of stock to choose from to enable one to choose a knife without any (or as little as possible) fit and finish issues?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

I've not heard of any personal visitors who have complained about the lack of choice. When Inzite went he said they brought out over 5 red handled 240 Denka's. You will NOT have a problem finding a 'good' one, so long as you know what to look for.


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## wind88 (Sep 25, 2019)

Yeah, he also busted in and screamed “money no problem”.


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## nyc (Sep 25, 2019)

@Corradobrit1 I figured if they let me have access to something flat to lay the knife on, I may have a chance of spotting any issues. But what should I keep a look out for? From what I read here, it’s the grind issues that have become legendary. Besides that handle install as well if memory serves me well.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

wind88 said:


> Yeah, he also busted in and screamed “money no problem”.


LOL Yeah he saw the mini choppa Denka and it was all over. Game face gone...... I like how Ricky (Inzite) rolls.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

nyc said:


> @Corradobrit1 I figured if they let me have access to something flat to lay the knife on, I may have a chance of spotting any issues. But what should I keep a look out for? From what I read here, it’s the grind issues that have become legendary. Besides that handle install as well if memory serves me well.



Exactly. Roll the edge on a flat surface and look for holes. Thats easy. Then angle the edge of the knife against a light source and look for unusual light reflections. This would indicate if there are overgrinds further up the blade road that may not be evident until you sharpen (if you're a home user I don't think these should concern you too much).

I like thinner grinds behind the edge so get them weighed and check how thin they are. The agricultural ones are easy to spot.

Check spines and choils for sharp edges. If you find the perfect knife but there is a sharp area ask if they will ease that area in the workshop outback. They have grinding equipment there so shouldn't be an imposition.

Alternatively get a Morihei Hisamoto W#1 (aka the pimped out TF Maboroshi).......


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> I am very happy with it so far. Test cut an onion and a big carrot with it. It cuts like dream. I can tell the grind is a lot better than the Maboroshi that i got. Sharpness is just as good as the Maboroshi. can't wait to take it to work and put it through the pace.



I have to agree with your experience. I've been getting to know my 240 gyuto over the past few days and it takes the Maboroshi to a new level. I *love* the reactive iron cladding. Never thought I would say that but its so much more aesthetically pleasing compared to the SS. It takes a patina like I've not seen before with other san-mai, although thats probably not saying much as I've only used a Konosuke Fujiyama FM and Mazaki. I'm getting light irridescent blues and oranges both in the core steel and cladding. No splotchy blacks and grays. Hope you're finding your tip as good as mine.
I touched up the edge for the first time on a Gesshin 4K stone this evening as the factory edge wasn't toothy enough for me. Took to the stone like butter. Couple of passes and it was razor sharp. Edge retention should be up there with Mab as they are both TF W#1 to 65HRC, but we will see.

I'm really having a hard time finding fault. Only F&F issue is a slightly rough choil which I'll ease at some point with emery paper. Price is unbelievable considering the amount of work done on the Jnats by hand. About 50-60% of the price of a regular TF Mab.

Overall I'm impressed enough that I bought the 210 version just in case this was a one-off collaboration with Morihei. I got the last one I could find.


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## nyc (Sep 25, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Exactly. Roll the edge on a flat surface and look for holes. Thats easy. Then angle the edge of the knife against a light source and look for unusual light reflections. This would indicate if there are overgrinds further up the blade road that may not be evident until you sharpen (if you're a home user I don't think these should concern you too much).
> 
> I like thinner grinds behind the edge so get them weighed and check how thin they are. The agricultural ones are easy to spot.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the pointers.
The Hisamoto is very tempting. A rebadged TF as it were ... with better fit & finish. And that kasumi looks great. For myself, I wonder just how important having a TF is or should I just go the Hisamoto route. Tsubaya have their own TF version as well. 
One wonders if TF is aware of the issues, and if he does, does he even care.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

Thats a good question. I asked Gaku why they couldn't offer a 'fine finish' option to those willing to pay for a Jnat Kasumi edge. Currently it seems they don't have the time and experience to make that happen on a large scale.
tbh I don't think there are many Morihei/TF Hisamotos out there. I would not be surprised if its less than 20-30, and its probably a number that the sharpener at Morihei could handle. Most secondary dealers for Hitohira only seemed to offer 1-2 of each size and finish (Ku and SS) and some only Ku or SS. Not sure how many Hitohira sold direct through their website. The 210 and 240 I bought were the models for the online sales page but were not sold to me by Hitohira.


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## nyc (Sep 25, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Thats a good question. I asked Gaku why they couldn't offer a 'fine finish' option to those willing to pay for a Jnat Kasumi edge. Currently it seems they don't have the time and experience to make that happen on a large scale.
> tbh I don't think there are many Morihei/TF Hisamotos out there. I would not be surprised if its less than 20-30, and its probably a number that the sharpener at Morihei could handle. Most secondary dealers for Hitohira only seemed to offer 1-2 of each size and finish (Ku and SS). Not sure how many Hitohira sold direct through their website. The 210 and 240 I bought were the models for the online sales page but were not sold to me by Hitohira.


Fine finish is a bonus. I’d be happy if they could just get the grind and handle install right and consistent throughout their production. The man’s 4th generation. That’s gotta mean something. He ought to have this down to a pat.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

nyc said:


> Thanks for the pointers.
> The Hisamoto is very tempting. A rebadged TF as it were ... with better fit & finish. And that kasumi looks great. For myself, I wonder just how important having a TF is or should I just go the Hisamoto route. Tsubaya have their own TF version as well.
> One wonders if TF is aware of the issues, and if he does, does he even care.


If the Tsubaya version is SS clad without the Kasumi Jnat finish, definitely get the TF badged version from the shop as you can inspect it. No brainer. I wish the Hisamoto had TF markings, but unfortunately it doesn't. I think you'll also have more of a connection with the knife after buying it direct from TF (or Gaku) himself.
TF knows about the issues. They've been ongoing and reported repeatedly over the years. I think his regular customers don't care and wouldn't know an overgrind if it bite them in the butt. I hope with the future organizational changes in the company that they will understand there is a market for fine finished blades from knowledgeable consumers and endusers. I would happily pay $100+ for a high quality kasumi finish on my Denka.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

nyc said:


> Fine finish is a bonus. I’d be happy if they could just get the grind and handle install right and consistent throughout their production. The man’s 4th generation. That’s gotta mean something. He ought to have this down to a pat.


Well if enough people demand it they will respond. As I understand it TF is run more like a cooperative nowadays than when TF IV was in control.


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## Koakuma (Sep 25, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I have to agree with your experience. I've been getting to know my 240 gyuto over the past few days and it takes the Maboroshi to a new level. I *love* the reactive iron cladding. Never thought I would say that but its so much more aesthetically pleasing compared to the SS. It takes a patina like I've not seen before with other san-mai, although thats probably not saying much as I've only used a Konosuke Fujiyama FM and Mazaki. I'm getting light irridescent blues and oranges both in the core steel and cladding. No splotchy blacks and grays. Hope you're finding your tip as good as mine.
> I touched up the edge for the first time on a Gesshin 4K stone this evening as the factory edge wasn't toothy enough for me. Took to the stone like butter. Couple of passes and it was razor sharp. Edge retention should be up there with Mab as they are both TF W#1 to 65HRC, but we will see.
> 
> I'm really having a hard time finding fault. Only F&F issue is a slightly rough choil which I'll ease at some point with emery paper. Price is unbelievable considering the amount of work done on the Jnats by hand. About 50-60% of the price of a regular TF Mab.
> ...


Even tho the F&F isn’t the best, it didn’t bother mean as much as I thought it would. Still haven’t had the chance to put it through prep session yet, but I did cut a cabbage with it. It just fall through the cabbage like hot knife on a butter. It’s one of most satisfying feeling ever.


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## CiderBear (Sep 25, 2019)

@Corradobrit1 do you have any pictures of the patina? I'd love to see them please!


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

The blade isn't very reactive so the patina is quite faint. I'll try and get some tomorrow though if the light cooperates.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 25, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> Even tho the F&F isn’t the best, it didn’t bother mean as much as I thought it would. Still haven’t had the chance to put it through prep session yet, but I did cut a cabbage with it. It just fall through the cabbage like hot knife on a butter. It’s one of most satisfying feeling ever.


Very satisfying. Its got that dense, honyaki-like feel on the board.


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## lemeneid (Sep 26, 2019)

nyc said:


> Thanks for the pointers.
> The Hisamoto is very tempting. A rebadged TF as it were ... with better fit & finish. And that kasumi looks great. For myself, I wonder just how important having a TF is or should I just go the Hisamoto route. Tsubaya have their own TF version as well.
> One wonders if TF is aware of the issues, and if he does, does he even care.


They're all Maboroshi so it doesn't really matter. Unless you're lusting over a Denka.


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## nyc (Sep 26, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> They're all Maboroshi so it doesn't really matter. Unless you're lusting over a Denka.


The Denka premium is hard to swallow. So a Maboroshi it is.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

nyc said:


> The Denka premium is hard to swallow. So a Maboroshi it is.


Agreed. Maboroshi is the sweetspot for price vs performance at the expense of a little better edge retention.


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## lemeneid (Sep 26, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Agreed. Maboroshi is the sweetspot for price vs performance at the expense of a little better edge retention.


Denka also has a little more sharpness and bite, when finished on the same stone


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## CiderBear (Sep 26, 2019)

@Koakuma please elaborate on the F&F. I assumed that it would be better than a direct order TF since someone at Morihei also worked on it, but you don't think so?


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## Koakuma (Sep 26, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Koakuma please elaborate on the F&F. I assumed that it would be better than a direct order TF since someone at Morihei also worked on it, but you don't think so?


The F&F on Morihei is better than TF for sure. The spine feels it has been polished a bit. its more smooth than TF. It has edge on the spine but they aren't sharp. On the choil, the edge feels sharp. It might be eased a bit but not noticeable. Its one area I will definitely try to polish myself. But i learn my lesson not to polish until I'm sure I am keeping the knife. I'm pretty sure i am keeping it tho. I had only used the knife for a little bit so i can't say how comfortable after a prep session. Will definitely update that after I get more time with it.


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## Eitan78 (Sep 26, 2019)




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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

I think the point is the Ku Morihei is still a rustic knife. Its going to have a few edges that might need a little finessing. From what I can tell the only work Morihei sharpeners did was give it a Kasumi edge. For me thats enough of a selling point as it eliminates the risk of overgrinds. Koakuma's recent experience tells me thats still a big problem with TF. 

You can't order soft iron clad knives direct from TF. That may or may not be a consideration. Personally I would go reactive cladding every time for my applications. Maybe not in a busy professional setting. 

It also looks like there is an even cheaper bolsterless Ku version available
https://hitohira-japan.com/collections/morihei/products/aaa-021-fa210?variant=28851575685173


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

Eitan78 said:


> View attachment 61837


I don't think TF does any work in the factory these days. He's all but officially retired. tbh, I think the handle F&F on my Morihei 240 is pretty darned good. I can only compare with my 210 Denka at the moment but its more substantial in the grip position and there are no gaps. The bolster area is smoother too. Like I said the only part that needs work is the choil. With a heavy blade any discomfort in that area is magnified. I'm hoping the Morihei 210 is more like the 240 than the Denka. I have smallish hands and still find it a little svelte.


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## wind88 (Sep 26, 2019)

My Hisamoto ku 240 handle is slimmer than my 210 red handle denka. The finish on the bolster is a lot better than the denka (which i find always have worse finish than mab).


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## DitmasPork (Sep 26, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I don't think TF does any work in the factory these days. He's all but officially retired. tbh, I think the handle F&F on my Morihei 240 is pretty darned good. I can only compare with my 210 Denka at the moment but its more substantial in the grip position and there are no gaps. The bolster area is smoother too. Like I said the only part that needs work is the choil. With a heavy blade any discomfort in that area is magnified. I'm hoping the Morihei 210 is more like the 240 than the Denka. I have smallish hands and still find it a little svelte.



If TF doesn't work on the knives anymore, the pricing of TF seems to justify the higher price of Jiro, where there's authorship from a single maker. More hands involved, the lower the price, which is often the case.

Curious on why there're so many f&f issues considering TF is such a well known maker—is it as simple as not training his staff properly or cutting corners in production?


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## Koakuma (Sep 26, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> If TF doesn't work on the knives anymore, the pricing of TF seems to justify the higher price of Jiro, where there's authorship from a single maker. More hands involved, the lower the price, which is often the case.
> 
> Curious on why there're so many f&f issues considering TF is such a well known maker—is it as simple as not training his staff properly or cutting corners in production?


I don't want to this thread to become another Jiro pricing thread, so please don't bring Jiro into this. thanks.


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## Eitan78 (Sep 26, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> I don't want to this thread to become another Jiro pricing thread, so please don't bring Jiro into this. thanks.



You don’t want it to become a JIro thread?
What does it mean?
Like when users give their opinion based on experience and than comments get erased by Mods?

Both Jiro and TF are subpar imo and not worth the price.

There you go, you can remove this comment later just before you decide to close the thread.

Jiro was a bad cutter and poor finish in all 3 knives I have tried. 
With TF I took a shortcut and tried someone else’s knife, ain’t gambling with my money on those mediocre knifes.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> If TF doesn't work on the knives anymore, the pricing of TF seems to justify the higher price of Jiro, where there's authorship from a single maker. More hands involved, the lower the price, which is often the case.
> 
> Curious on why there're so many f&f issues considering TF is such a well known maker—is it as simple as not training his staff properly or cutting corners in production?


I think its been this way for many years. Yes, F&F could be improved (quite a bit in some cases) and more attention given to issues like overgrounds. Several western dealers have given up stocking them altogether, another pays extra for better examples (and passes those charges on in the selling price) and others just accept a certain number will be returned and don't cause a fuss when the customer complains eg Knifewear. TF is more of a high volume rather than artisanal small batch maker of knives. Just go in knowing there could be QC issues and you won't be disappointed. There's a reason why the best advice is to go to the shop and hand select a knife.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

Eitan78 said:


> Both Jiro and TF are subpar imo and not worth the price.


Fully agree, but its not hard to find good ones. Its the bad ones that are more likely to end up on BST


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## DitmasPork (Sep 26, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Fully agree, but its not hard to find good ones. Its the bad ones that are more likely to end up on BST


Suppose the challenge for someone like my that's never touched a TF, is knowing what to look for that differentiates a good one from a faulty one.


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## Eitan78 (Sep 26, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Fully agree, but its not hard to find good ones. Its the bad ones that are more likely to end up on BST



Nothing is really hard to find, it’s only a question of the price you are willing to pay for it.

The problem I that %95 of TF are ****, great steel and HT perhaps but everything else’s is a mess, if you have a Good TF you probably belong with the other 5%.

As for Jiro , considering he made about 40 knives so far under the new brand, I say give it a good 12 months before you can see any consistency showing, maybe than it will be worth its price.
The problem is that he doesn’t sell his own knives and leaves the vendors in this case to market the knives at a very high entry point.
So he will definitely get better at making knives and will improve in the future, 
but at those entry prices which btw were already raised one time since the first batch...
I think it will be a hard pill to swallow.
I saw the same thing with mazaki, over the first year it was inconsistent and definitely got better the second year, but mazaki was a fair price.


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## parbaked (Sep 26, 2019)

Whatever they're doing wrong at TF, every one of their knives that I have owned or tried cut great.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Whatever they're doing wrong at TF, every one of their knives that I have owned or tried cut great.


I've owned 4 (still have 3) and they have ALL been excellent. Only sold the 4th, a Nashiji, as it was too light for me. No intentions to sell what I have left.... ever. And now I have 2 more in the guise of Morihei's. TFTFTF


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## DitmasPork (Sep 26, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I've owned 4 (still have 3) and they have ALL been excellent. Only sold the 4th, a Nashiji, as it was too light for me. No intentions to sell what I have left.... ever. And now I have 2 more in the guise of Morihei's. TFTFTF



Have you noticed any difference between the older and newer TFs? I remember with some other knives (KS, Gengetsu, Fujiyama) there have been people searching for older ones.


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## Koakuma (Sep 26, 2019)

Eitan78 said:


> You don’t want it to become a JIro thread?
> What does it mean?
> Like when users give their opinion based on experience and than comments get erased by Mods?
> 
> ...


I just don’t want this thread spiral into another if Jiro is worth the asking price thread. Obviously I have somehow offended you. If you want to discuss Jiro I cannot stop it. I am not a mod. If I have offended anyone with my comment I apologize.


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## Eitan78 (Sep 26, 2019)

You have not offended me at all, no hard feeling, just bring some light of the topic, since some members comments were erased, I’m simply pointing out some facts .


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## Koakuma (Sep 26, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I think its been this way for many years. Yes, F&F could be improved (quite a bit in some cases) and more attention given to issues like overgrounds. Several western dealers have given up stocking them altogether, another pays extra for better examples (and passes those charges on in the selling price) and others just accept a certain number will be returned and don't cause a fuss when the customer complains eg Knifewear. TF is more of a high volume rather than artisanal small batch maker of knives. Just go in knowing there could be QC issues and you won't be disappointed. There's a reason why the best advice is to go to the shop and hand select a knife.


I had ask Ellie from Knifewear to pick out the best ones they have. It still turns out to be bad grind. She even suggested to me to pick a different knife as most of TF have similar issues


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Have you noticed any difference between the older and newer TFs? I remember with some other knives (KS, Gengetsu, Fujiyama) there have been people searching for older ones.


The only way I can distinguish between 'old' TF and new is the extra tou cou (sword maker) kanji and unfortunately I only have one Denka with those markings. The rest are Maboroshi or Nashiji that don't have it, so its comparing apples and oranges. My gut tells me there is little difference. Based on pic comparisons with my Denka I would say the cladding line is a little more integrated but I'd be splitting hairs. Basic grind is identical and I imagine steel and HT are consistent.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> I had ask Ellie from Knifewear to pick out the best ones they have. It still turns out to be bad grind. She even suggested to me to pick a different knife as most of TF have similar issues


Wonder if they are just rotating returns. Clearly Ellie doesn't know much about knives. Your issue was glaring and a reason to stay clear of Knifewear for TF. I would only buy from Epic Edge outside of TF direct.


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## Koakuma (Sep 26, 2019)

Eitan78 said:


> You have not offended me at all, no hard feeling, just bring some light of the topic, since some members comments were erased, I’m simply pointing out some facts .


Are you talking about deleted comment in the Jiro thread or this one? I haven’t pay too much attention on the Jiro thread as it just sort of repeat the same point over multiple posts.


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## Koakuma (Sep 26, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Wonder if they are just rotating returns. Clearly Ellie doesn't know much about knives. Your issue was glaring and a reason to stay clear of Knifewear for TF. I would only buy from Epic Edge outside of TF direct.


Probably, they accepted my return, if anybody got a TF from them with polished and rounded spine. That’s mine


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> Probably, they accepted my return, if anybody got a TF from them with polished and rounded spine. That’s mine


As an aside what did you use to ease the spine?


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## Koakuma (Sep 26, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> As an aside what did you use to ease the spine?


I used redline sandpaper starting at 220 goes to 800 grit.


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## Eitan78 (Sep 26, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> Are you talking about deleted comment in the Jiro thread or this one? I haven’t pay too much attention on the Jiro thread as it just sort of repeat the same point over multiple posts.



I’m talking about this entire forum, 
Many times ppl have posted comments on different topics, completely legit questions and such, jiro thread was definitely wasn’t the first time.

If there is a public discussion and a Healy dialog there is no reason to remove anything.

Ppl should be allowed to voice their opinions.
This is a public website!

This is not some action movie where the commander tells his soldiers “if I want your opinion I will give it to you”....

Now , back to the real topic of discussion, 
Again, based on my own experience only,

TF sucks and doesn’t with the price 
Jiro has time to improve.


Take it or leave it


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## parbaked (Sep 26, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I would only buy from Epic Edge outside of TF direct.



Bernal also has good examples. I've handles dozens there and they are much better F&F than at the TF shop in Tokyo. 
A few of the sharpeners use TF at home and can definitely help pick out a good one.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

Eitan78 said:


> Ppl should be allowed to voice their opinions.
> This is a public website!


The discussion spiraled into personal attacks. Had it been kept civil that thread would still be open.



Eitan78 said:


> Take it or leave it


I'll leave it thanks. Saying 95% of TF's are crap is not believable or mildly close to reality but you're entitled to your opinion.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Bernal also has good examples. I've handles dozens there and they are much better F&F than at the TF shop in Tokyo.
> A few of the sharpeners use TF at home and can definitely help pick out a good one.


Forgotten about Bernal. So even better than the red handled versions? I wonder if they pay the premium like EE to get a little more attention to F&F. Its not a coincidence you saying this. Shame Inzite isn't around any longer to throw in his tuppence.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Corradobrit1 do you have any pictures of the patina? I'd love to see them please!


Here you go. And this is why I prefer the reactive cladding......


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## Garm (Sep 26, 2019)

I've ordered several knives direct from TF, but it's been a few years since the last.
One Nashiji gyuto and petty I've kept to myself, while others(both Mab and Nashiji) have been gifted.

The "worst" one is simply a good knife with stellar steel, while two of the gyutos are probably my favourite ever knives, because of their combination of features that strike a superb balance between sharpness, effortless cutting power that maintains a good degree of finesse, very good food separation and release, all the while feeling very "alive" on the board. Many of these features are due to the superb(yes I said it..) grinds.

I'd also venture to say that the performance of the steel is, if not inextricably linked, at least highly correlated with this style and execution of the grind. The way the height of the main convexity varies along the edge on the right side, being higher at the heel and towards the tip makes for excellent cutting in a draw or push motion. This feature also allows for more "meat" behind the edge to support the hard steel , while still maintaining cutting performance. Making even, flat bevels on a bench stone will be a chore I imagine, but if I did that to at least three of the gyutos I've tried then I would most likely lose some of the attributes behind how and why they perform so damn well.

When I do "blind tests" with friends coming over and we prep dinner, I let them try different knives, which they know nothing about, be it price point or construction. To date I think one of about ten has preferred a Takamura, while my other knives(who are almost universally celebrated at this forum)have all been rated lower than the TF's, which in turn so far have been the favourites of 9/10 people who are decent/good cooks, but have never used anything more fancy than a Global.

To be clear, Im not negating the fact that knives from TF can come with overgrinds near the edge, and I'm especially not touting the fit and finish on these knives. Fine with me, because I care more about performance and happen to think they look cool.

As a final thought in this way too long post, I'm also of the opinion that TF knives get scrutinized in a manner and scale few other makers endure. Interestingly, in several threads I've seen when people complain about some issue with their TF, they bring out rulers and calipers and end up finding all kinds of faults in their other blades as well. The issues with TF knives are most of the time left very "naked" due to how the blade road is finished. With many other makers these issues hide behind etched or sandblasted finishes.

Again, not denying there are obvious faults with some of the knives from TF, not to be confused with f&f issues which there are a lot of, but the formentioned faults get way more attention than knives from any other maker I've seen. Even when knives from other makers display serious construction flaws they somehow get downplayed or judged as a freak occurrence, even when you start tallying them up.

Please excuse my late night rant...only one tired home cook's opinion.


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## zizirex (Sep 26, 2019)

If TF is Overprice? How about Shigefusa and Kato then? I could consider them the "Hypebeast (Off-White and Supreme)" section of a Knife World. Also, about overprice knife? we all know nothing beats Chels*a Miller (This forum's favourite).

The Morihei TF was done by Oguro-san if I remember, and he kinda regrinds the knife geometry to make it better.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 26, 2019)

zizirex said:


> The Morihei TF was done by Oguro-san if I remember, and he kinda regrinds the knife geometry to make it better.


You are correct
https://www.instagram.com/p/B2AEju

If anyone is looking to get a Morihei SS 210, ai and om have the last of their allocation up on their site. No more will be produced.


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## Koakuma (Sep 27, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> You are correct
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B2AEjulh6dD/
> 
> If anyone is looking to get a Morihei SS 210, ai and om have the last of their allocation up on their site. No more will be produced.
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B22ReoRBABT/


Just to add to that, CKC also has Morihei SS 210.
https://carbonknifeco.com/collectio...ihei-hisamoto-white-1-gyuto-210mm-fine-finish


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## HRC_64 (Sep 27, 2019)

What/whre is the quote/source of the notion the knife is somehow "re-ground"?



> Shiage Toishi (Fine Stones)


Fine finish almost surely means something 6-8k



> These knives are sharpened by the president of Morihei Oguro-San with a fine finish.


The standard practice in japan is of the retailer "finish-sharpening" the knife, no?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 27, 2019)

He gives it a kasumi finish. I doubt its reprofiled, but it's definitely more than just 'sharpening'


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## lemeneid (Sep 27, 2019)

I don't get the fascination with overgrinds. I got a mazaki which was supposedly finished on nats with overgrinds. And I've seen them on a couple of Kurosakis. But TF's seem to get the brunt of the criticism with overgrinds.

I have 2 TF's one with a slight "overgrind" near the tip that isn't noticeable and still cuts like hell.


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## Keat (Sep 27, 2019)

Not to go astray with the thread, but to clarify something mentioned several times. When people refer to overgrinds are they referring to a low spot on an otherwise generally flat bevel (or if not flat, just one having an otherwise consistent geometry)? I've always suspected this, but would like to confirm.


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## lemeneid (Sep 27, 2019)

basically if you lay your knife bevel flat on stones when you thin, if there is a hollow, that’s an overgrind. You can’t ever touch that spot unless you thin it to hell
Of course there are knives which are concave throughout, but those are by design.


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## CiderBear (Sep 27, 2019)

Thanks @lemeneid. The only TF I've owned (very briefly) was a used 210mm Nashiji from Bernal. It was in really poor shape (unlike their website description of "lightly used, lightly sharpened) that I returned right away without even using it. They made me whole though, so no harm, no foul.

I really want to try a Maboroshi (or Morihei). since @Corradobrit1 and you keep mentioning how special they are 

I was always under the impression that White #1 would always get sharper but have worse edge retention than Aogami Super, is that not the case re: Maboroshi vs Denka?


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## DitmasPork (Sep 27, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> basically if you lay your knife bevel flat on stones when you thin, if there is a hollow, that’s an overgrind. You can’t ever touch that spot unless you thin it to hell
> Of course there are knives which are concave throughout, but those are by design.



Out of curiosity, when and why did you begin buying TF? And what do you love about TF compared to other makers knives? Honest question—since many here deem TF to by hyped, dodgy f&f, overrated and overpriced. Full disclosure—I’ve never held a TF.


----------



## Garm (Sep 27, 2019)

Keat said:


> Not to go astray with the thread, but to clarify something mentioned several times. When people refer to overgrinds are they referring to a low spot on an otherwise generally flat bevel (or if not flat, just one having an otherwise consistent geometry)? I've always suspected this, but would like to confirm.


A more serious overgrind means that too much material has been removed at a certain spot in the grind, so that after normal sharpening you will gradually move up into a section that basically has no material to make up the cutting edge. You will have a hole in the profile, a point that doesn't make contact with the board. These are very rare though.

Many people used to complain about "overgrinds" on the right side of TF knives, near the heel far up from the edge.
They used to be quite consistent, depending on blade thickness etc, and IMO were actually a grind feature rather than a flaw that aids performance by moving the convexity further up near the back of the blade.
They don't seem that common anymore, perhaps due to complaints, but that's just speculation on my part.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Sep 27, 2019)

Seems to me the overgrinds can occur anywhere. I don't think unevenness further up the blade is at all important as most (home) users will never reach that point if they are sharpening infrequently. In fact it may aid food release 

The lemons are the ones that have 'holes' when new as this indicates the overgrind is much lower down and will get worse over time even with casual sharpening regimes. Just put the edge against a flat surface like a chopping board and look for light leakage as you roll the edge from heel to tip. Koakumas was a particularly bad example. 

And yes, even the revered Western makers who are producing knives one-by-one let examples with serious over grinds out into the wild. I won't mention who but this knife should never have gone to a customer. I sent it back and he fixed the issue but the reprofiling changed what was otherwise my perfect knife (profile, weight, balance) into something less. I'm sure it was just an anomaly but worth mentioning with all the TF bashing that goes on.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 27, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Thanks @lemeneid.
> I was always under the impression that White #1 would always get sharper but have worse edge retention than Aogami Super, is that not the case re: Maboroshi vs Denka?



The way I see it comparing TF W#1 (Maboroshi) and AS (Denka)

W#1 easier to sharpen. Gets to razor edge without too much effort. Very good edge retention. Microchipping minimal to non existent after factory edge smoothed.

AS harder to sharpen, but takes a more acute angle without compromising stability ie can get sharper. Class leading edge retention. Microchipping minimal to non existent after factory edge smoothed.


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## lemeneid (Sep 27, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Thanks @lemeneid. The only TF I've owned (very briefly) was a used 210mm Nashiji from Bernal. It was in really poor shape (unlike their website description of "lightly used, lightly sharpened) that I returned right away without even using it. They made me whole though, so no harm, no foul.
> 
> I really want to try a Maboroshi (or Morihei). since @Corradobrit1 and you keep mentioning how special they are
> 
> I was always under the impression that White #1 would always get sharper but have worse edge retention than Aogami Super, is that not the case re: Maboroshi vs Denka?


Nope, I think this is one prime example where everything else equal, good heat treat is more important than good steel. Of course, we will never know how special TF's AS formulation is but to me it feels sharper, with a more aggressive bite. And mind you, my Denka petty is a real fatty, but it really shines when finished on a good jnat  Basically, with the Denka, you get sharpness AND edge retention.


DitmasPork said:


> Out of curiosity, when and why did you begin buying TF? And what do you love about TF compared to other makers knives? Honest question—since many here deem TF to by hyped, dodgy f&f, overrated and overpriced. Full disclosure—I’ve never held a TF.


https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/tf-or-watanabe.38102/
Yup, I started that crap storm so there ya have it.
I was simply looking for a good 240 after owning a 210 Mazaki. I didn't have a lot of cash at the time, so I picked the cheaper option which was a 240 TF on BST. I lucked out because the knife was almost perfect, but I did some more thinning on it and improved the profile to suit my tastes, and its now a hell of a knife. The only upgrade to my 240 Maboroshi right now is a 240 Denka, and this is considering all the other knives I've tried and owned during this period (Toyamas, Fujiyamas, Tanakas, Katos, the good stuff.)
Yes, it looks like total ass, but its really special. Food release is decent, not the best, but the cutting feel is something else. It ghosts through food, some people like that feeling, some people don't. I personally love it. Its difficult to put in words how special the knife feels when cutting.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Sep 27, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> the cutting feel is something else. It ghosts through food, some people like that feeling, some people don't. I personally love it. Its difficult to put in words how special the knife feels when cutting.


My sentiments exactly. And this is something that the Morihei Hisamoto has too without the pain to my wallet or the considerable time spent on the Jnats to get a perfect Kasumi finish (something I could never achieve myself anyway). All the positives and very few of the negatives


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## parbaked (Sep 27, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> He gives it a kasumi finish. I doubt its reprofiled, but it's definitely more than just 'sharpening'



Are you sure about a kasumi finish? Maybe yours looks different because it's iron clad??
My understanding is that Oguro-san only sharpens and polishes the edge...like a higher end finish sharpening.
This makes sense given that the Morihei TF coasts less than a regular Maboroshi.
Also hand kasumi finish on the SS cladding would be a pain...


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 27, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Are you sure about a kasumi finish? Maybe yours looks different because it's iron clad??
> My understanding is that Oguro-san only sharpens and polishes the edge...like a higher end finish sharpening.
> This makes sense given that the Morihei TF coasts less than a regular Maboroshi.
> Also hand kasumi finish on the SS cladding would be a pain...


For me its Kasumi. Clear differentiation between cladding polish and shinier core steel edge. But it could also be Jnat edge polish. Doesn't change the real world benefits which is to even out any uneven grinds. The rest is just aesthetics.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 27, 2019)

Keat said:


> When people refer to overgrinds are they referring to a low spot on an otherwise generally flat bevel?



A true over-grind (over the centreline) more correctly refers to a low-spot that goes thru the centre-line of the knife.


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## parbaked (Sep 27, 2019)

I consider kasumi finish to be done by hand on stones. 

I think the Morihei blade is machine finish by TF. 
The edge is hand sharpened and polished on stones by Morihei.

Maybe your Morihei looks different because it's iron clad??


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## HRC_64 (Sep 27, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Doesn't change the real world benefits which is to even out any uneven grinds.



True overgrinds cannot be fixed, thus why they are a problem.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 27, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I consider kasumi finish to be done by hand on stones.
> 
> I think the Morihei blade is machine finish by TF.
> The edge is hand sharpened and polished on stones by Morihei.
> ...


I think its a little more than what you are inferring. But without seeing what was delivered to Morihei its hard to know.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 27, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> True overgrinds cannot be fixed, thus why they are a problem.


Well they can be but it requires reprofiling the blade, as I mentioned earlier in the case of the Western maker.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 27, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Well they can be but it requires reprofiling the blade, as I mentioned earlier in the case of the Western maker.



Reprofiling is too innocent a word, you're talking a "salvage" operation like a totalled car.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 27, 2019)

Overgrinds are "fixed" at the inventory stage by identifying them and removing them from inventory.


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## Marek07 (Sep 27, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Overgrinds are "fixed" at the inventory stage by identifying them and removing them from inventory.


Correct! Or at least, they should be.


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## Gregmega (Sep 27, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Overgrinds are "fixed" at the inventory stage by identifying them and removing them from inventory.



And for TF ‘removing them from the inventory’ means selling to the public, am I right or am I right...


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## DitmasPork (Sep 27, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Overgrinds are "fixed" at the inventory stage by identifying them and removing them from inventory.



Are you implying that TF's quality control is not up to the standards that a maker of his reputation should be? When TF knives are completed, do the workers simply look them over and say "good enough"?


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## HRC_64 (Sep 28, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Are you implying...



Discussion about the geometry of overgrinds is a simple geometry problem...
...one that needs to be understood before it can be talked about intelligently.


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## Gregmega (Sep 28, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Are you implying that TF's quality control is not up to the standards that a maker of his reputation should be? When TF knives are completed, do the workers simply look them over and say "good enough"?



From the ones I’ve seen, I’d say so. But probably in Japanese.


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## lemeneid (Sep 28, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> A true over-grind (over the centreline) more correctly refers to a low-spot that goes thru the centre-line of the knife.


That I’ve never seen in any TF or other knife out there. But definitely agreed, those should be taken out and never sold. Don’t think I’ve seen a knife like that.


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## suntravel (Sep 28, 2019)

TF Nakiri White Steel, grind was king of low spots, and HT.....

... well made the customer a soft cuttingboard, so it could hold the edge longer then TU after each homecooking session.

But the only white with decent performance i ever had was from Watanabe, Carter also not better than TF 

















Regards

Uwe


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## Garm (Sep 28, 2019)

I've seen overgrinds like these(crossing the centerline) on forums maybe a handful of times over the years, never in real life.
One was a TF I believe, a couple of Tanakas and Masakages, and a Sakai made Honyaki are the ones I recall.


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## Garm (Sep 28, 2019)

suntravel said:


> TF Nakiri White Steel, grind was king of low spots, and HT.....
> 
> ... well made the customer a soft cuttingboard, so it could hold the edge longer then TU after each homecooking session.
> 
> ...


If I understand you correctly, M. Carter and TF can't properly heat treat white steel?
I think I've heard it all now..


----------



## suntravel (Sep 28, 2019)

Well i know two TF Denkas wich are very well done on HT and grind, one of them hand selected in his store 

Watananbes HT is very good, he studied metalurgie and uses an modern aproach on HT that make his egdes consitent on top level.

I have tested a lot of Watanabes, maybe 15 from TF and only one Carter, so do not see this global on the makers just a personal impression on a few knifes 

Regards

Uwe


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## Koakuma (Sep 28, 2019)

https://imgur.com/a/eDZvAHK
Got it through a light prep, a case of broccoli, carrot, celery, onion and a 5lbs lamb. The F&F holds up, did not irritate my hand after the prep. Slicing and dicing everything with ease and no wedging. The iron clad isn’t very reactive but the patina it developed was great. My experience reflects @Corradobrit1


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 28, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> https://imgur.com/a/eDZvAHK
> Got it through a light prep, a case of broccoli, carrot, celery, onion and a 5lbs lamb. The F&F holds up, did not irritate my hand after the prep. Slicing and dicing everything with ease and no wedging. The iron clad isn’t very reactive but the patina it developed was great. My experience reflects @Corradobrit1


That's some pretty impressive patina. Did you hone or touch up the edge. For me the cuts got even better with a little toothier bite. How was edge retention?


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## DitmasPork (Sep 28, 2019)

The TF Maboroshi Gyuto 240mm are priced in the $500–$600 range.

Considering both the impassioned praise and criticism of the knife—I'm just wondering how it compares to other knives in that price bracket.

For instance, other knives around the same, or less in price range ($500–$600) are Shi.Han, Kagekiyo, Tsourkan, Comet, Watanabe, etc.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 28, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> The TF Maboroshi Gyuto 240mm are priced in the $500–$600 range.
> 
> Considering both the impassioned praise and criticism of the knife—I'm just wondering how it compares to other knives in that price bracket.
> 
> For instance, other knives around the same, or less in price range ($500–$600) are Shi.Han, Kagekiyo, Tsourkan, Comet, Watanabe, etc.


Even higher at EpicEdge $679, although you'll have more confidence of getting one thats without issues. $500 direct from TF (was 20% cheaper until recently). Or $310 for the Morihei Ku 240. With such a broad spread I don't think I'd be paying more than $500. Or I'd make the 210 work for me, which is significantly cheaper ($398 at EE and $320 at TF). Thats almost $100 extra per cm. Crazy.

The comparisons you mention aren't altogether fair as its not the same steel and HT. Its the latter that makes the TF and Morihei standout and worth considering.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 28, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Even higher at EpicEdge $679, although you'll have more confidence of getting one thats without issues. $500 direct from TF (was 20% cheaper until recently). Or $310 for the Morihei Ku 240. With such a broad spread I don't think I'd be paying more than $500. Or I'd make the 210 work for me, which is significantly cheaper ($398 at EE and $320 at TF). Thats almost $100 extra per cm. Crazy.
> 
> The comparisons you mention aren't altogether fair as its not the same steel and HT. Its the latter that makes the TF and Morihei standout and worth considering.



Why do prices vary so much? Don't they have MSRP? They should.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 28, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Why do prices vary so much? Don't they have MSRP? They should.


Not only that but the massive price hike from 210 to 240 is also not consistent. Knifewears pricing is much closer. Same with the Morihei. I really have heard no logical explanation why the 240 is SO much more expensive.


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## parbaked (Sep 28, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Why do prices vary so much? Don't they have MSRP? They should.


Because TF doesn't see the need to increase the prices they charge in Japan just because a US retailer has to charge more to cover the cost to import and resell the knives. TF sell their knives for a similar price to a US retailers as direct to customers. Shops like EE and Bernal have to pay for shipping and also import duties on the TF knives, so they charge more to cover those costs. Why should TF also charge more in Japan when he doesn't have those costs. He doesn't feel any need to "protect" his overseas retailers by overcharging his local customers. This is not unusual in Japan where consumers are used to paying more for imported products than those products sell for in the home country.


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## Koakuma (Sep 28, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> That's some pretty impressive patina. Did you hone or touch up the edge. For me the cuts got even better with a little toothier bite. How was edge retention?


Yes, I have lightly touch up on a 1k grit stone. The edge retention is great, after the prep it is still sharp for any task I throw at it.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 28, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Because TF doesn't see the need to increase the prices they charge in Japan just because a US retailer has to charge more to cover the cost to import and resell the knives. TF sell their knives for a similar price to a US retailers as direct to customers. Shops like EE and Bernal have to pay for shipping and also import duties on the TF knives, so they charge more to cover those costs. Why should TF also charge more in Japan when he doesn't have those costs. He doesn't feel any need to "protect" his overseas retailers by overcharging his local customers. This is not unusual in Japan where consumers are used to paying more for imported products than those products sell for in the home country.



Quite silly and idiotic of TF not to standardize pricing—making is cheaper to buy direct, undercutting his own vendors, not cool IMO. Surprised vendors even carry his knives.


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## McMan (Sep 28, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not only that but the massive price hike from 210 to 240 is also not consistent. Knifewears pricing is much closer. Same with the Morihei. I really have heard no logical explanation why the 240 is SO much more expensive.



Even pre-price increase, TF had a huge price jump from 210 to 240mm. The jump from 180 to 195 was--and still is--tiny. The jump from 195 to 210 was reasonable. Then--BOOM!--the jump from 210 to 240 was huge. It's weird.

I picked up a 195mm Maboroshi a few years ago, and a 180mm Nashiji before that.
My way of viewing TF is that they make the most sense economically at 180-195mm, maybe stretch to 210mm. The prices are a great value for what you get--provided you get a good one. If you get a dud, then it's 2 $200 dud not a $500 dud. This said, I've been fortunate to get good blades with absolutely atrocious western handles. Others have gotten ones with functional problems--the overgrind issues are well-documented.

Long story short, my thinking is that a 240 TF is a risk if buying direct and too expensive if paying for the EE or Bernal quality-check premium. Taking the risk makes more sense when it's not a bank-buster.

Here's current direct pricing for Nashiji and Maboroshi:


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## labor of love (Sep 28, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Quite silly and idiotic of TF not to standardize pricing—making is cheaper to buy direct, undercutting his own vendors, not cool IMO. Surprised vendors even carry his knives.


Yeah but direct order TF is a gamble. Touching base w bernal or whoever before you buy is a more certain way of knowing youre not going to get some messed up knife.
Yes, Im aware that some of you guys have great experiences with direct ordering from TF, but also the majority of the complaints ive heard are also from direct orders.


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## labor of love (Sep 28, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> The TF Maboroshi Gyuto 240mm are priced in the $500–$600 range.
> 
> Considering both the impassioned praise and criticism of the knife—I'm just wondering how it compares to other knives in that price bracket.
> 
> For instance, other knives around the same, or less in price range ($500–$600) are Shi.Han, Kagekiyo, Tsourkan, Comet, Watanabe, etc.


Maboroshi is just a beater knife with really great steel. TF, Wat and Toyama gyutos are about the last thing I would buy with a $500-$600 but to each their own.


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## parbaked (Sep 28, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Quite silly and idiotic of TF not to standardize pricing—making is cheaper to buy direct, undercutting his own vendors, not cool IMO. Surprised vendors even carry his knives.



I'm surprised that you think you should be able to buy something that is made in Japan for the same price in the US as it costs someone in Japan.

Let me try to explain it so you don't feel anyone is being idiotic or unfair, because they are not.

Company A makes and sells a knife in Japan. Knife costs $50 to make.
Company A sets a wholesale price of $100 and an MSRP of $200.
This means they wholesales the knife to retailers for $100, but sell direct to customers for $200 to protect its retailers.
I get that this is how you think it should work.

New US retailer comes along that wants to sell the knife in the US.
If they buy the knife for the same $100 as Japan retailers, they also have to spend $25 shipping cost and 25% customs duty to import the knife to US for resale.
As such their cost is $150, not $100.
They will have to sell the knife for $300 in the US to make a fair profit and justify the cost of inventory invested in the knife.

This is how differentiated global pricing happens. No one is trying to be idiotic or cheat anyone.
Sometime the costs of goods are different in different countries under different circumstances.

Do you think Company A should increase the MSRP in Japan to $300 to protect that new retailer in the US?
That is what you are suggesting TF do.
That seems unfair to their local retailers and customers, even though they could make more money...


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## Gregmega (Sep 28, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I'm surprised that you think you should be able to buy something that is made in Japan for the same price in the US as it costs someone in Japan.
> 
> Let me try to explain it so you don't feel anyone is being idiotic or unfair, because they are not.
> 
> ...



While very nuanced, this is a speculative breakdown and inherently flawed. You’d be surprised to know that most vendors/makers create a relationship with msrp at the base of the agreement, and it stands as a trust between the 2 so that one doesn’t fk the other over. By and large these agreements protect all parties. So while your statement rings of ‘fairness’, it’s just not so simply put. If I sell in Hong Kong at one of my retailers, I have promised not to undercut his pricing in the states so that people won’t go in his store, and instead come to my website. Otherwise I may as well sell wholesale to the whole planet and screw over my vendors.


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## ian (Sep 28, 2019)

There are other examples besides TF, too. Heiji direct is much cheaper than Heiji at JKI, for instance. But you (or at least I) have to wait months for a direct order, I’m sure there’s extra qc at JKI, and there may be differences in the product too. (I’m not sure how Gesshin Heiji compares to direct Heiji.)

You do get extra kanji at Knifewear on a TF, don’t you? Maybe that’s worth an extra $100 vs direct. Don’t remember how pretty it is.


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## parbaked (Sep 28, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> While very nuanced, this is a speculative breakdown and inherently flawed. You’d be surprised to know that most vendors/makers create a relationship with msrp at the base of the agreement, and it stands as a trust between the 2 so that one doesn’t fk the other over. By and large these agreements protect all parties. So while your statement rings of ‘fairness’, it’s just not so simply put. If I sell in Hong Kong at one of my retailers, I have promised not to undercut his pricing in the states so that people won’t go in his store, and instead come to my website. Otherwise I may as well sell wholesale to the whole planet and screw over my vendors.



Yes, but you seem to have built that cost into your business model so you are not faced with the conflict of having to increase your price at home because someone overseas wants to sell your product and their costs are higher.

Hong Kong is not a great example because there are no duties, unlike the US or Japan.
What happens if a knife shop in Thailand wants to sell your bags, but there is a 70% duty on goods to protect Thai workers. Australia is another country with high protective tariffs.
Are you going to increase your US MSRP to protect those markets?

Another example might be Watanabe who seems to mostly sell direct.
He sells his famous 180mm Nakiri for Y28000 or $260 + shipping.
What if a shop in the US want to retail that knife and their COG includes 25% duty.
I doubt Watanabe can wholesale the knife cheap enough to subsidize shipping cost to US, import duties and the US retailer's profit margin.
Where does their profit margin come from unless they charge more than $260.
Should Watanabe increase his direct price to protect that new retailer? It's not that simple.

Look at Heiji. Their direct price is different from JKI for example.

Others like Ashi or Takeda don't sell direct, so it's less complicated.

I'm just saying that it's unfair to call people idiotic or uncool because they don't have uniform pricing around the world...sh*t happens...


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## Gregmega (Sep 28, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Yes, but you seem to have built that cost into your business model so you are not faced with the conflict of having to increase your price at home because someone overseas wants to sell your product and their costs are higher.
> 
> Hong Kong is not a great example because there are no duties, unlike the US or Japan.
> What happens if a knife shop in Thailand wants to sell your bags, but there is a 70% duty on sen goods to protect Thai workers. Australia is another country with high protective tariffs.
> ...



Boom. All great examples- it’s just such a nuanced and complex game- while I won’t bore anyone with too many details of how I operate, those are conversations that happen at such an deep & odd place before the sales contract even begins. Especially with how often tariffs change these days. 

If TF wants to sell blindly to the public at a greatly reduced rate and let the public take the Russian roulette odds, it’s certainly their prerogative...


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 28, 2019)

ian said:


> You do get extra kanji at Knifewear on a TF, don’t you? Maybe that’s worth an extra $100 vs direct. Don’t remember how pretty it is.


Thats a fairly new feature and tbh I prefer the original stamped marks. They are too faint. And it certainly doesn't guarantee above average F&F or consistent grind, ask Koakuma.


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## ian (Sep 28, 2019)

Yea, that was a joke. 

I made the point about qc etc.. since parbaked was making a more general argument than just TF at knifewear.


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## lemeneid (Sep 28, 2019)

Guess TF is sorta like Marmite. Some love it, some don't.

I love it though and I'll take its HT and cutting performance over some F+F any day. All my knives are "project knives" anyway so they get worked on in some way or other before they become perfect.

TFTFTFTFTF


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 28, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Guess TF is sorta like Marmite. Some love it, some don't.
> 
> I love it though and I'll take its HT and cutting performance over some F+F any day. All my knives are "project knives" anyway so they get worked on in some way or other before they become perfect.
> 
> TFTFTFTFTF


Me too. F&F is easily improved. HT not so much. If I could only keep one it would be my Denka and Morihei Hisamoto's a close second. TFTFTFTFTF


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## CiderBear (Sep 28, 2019)

All this talk made me order a 210mm


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## PappaG (Sep 28, 2019)

All this talk makes me want one too, but man that price point is too much for me.


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## wind88 (Sep 28, 2019)

I was told there could be another price hike with TF starting next month.


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## CiderBear (Sep 28, 2019)

I got a 210mm Morihei without bolster. With shipping it came to about 270 bucks. The vendor I got it from has 2 left


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 28, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> I got a 210mm Morihei without bolster. With shipping it came to about 270 bucks. The vendor I got it from has 2 left


Good choice and if you don't like the scales its easy to upgrade. Look forward to hearing what you think. My 210 is en route from Australia


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 28, 2019)

wind88 said:


> I was told there could be another price hike with TF starting next month.


Tis the season. I was told future Morihei's are going up 40%. *cough*


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## wind88 (Sep 28, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Tis the season. I was told future Morihei's are going up 40%. *cough*


The 240 stainless hisamoto was originally priced at $300 a pop. It was a steal.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 29, 2019)

wind88 said:


> The 240 stainless hisamoto was originally priced at $300 a pop. It was a steal.



Now we know why the pricing shills are in this thread LOL


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## CiderBear (Sep 29, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Good choice and if you don't like the scales its easy to upgrade. Look forward to hearing what you think. My 210 is en route from Australia



Haha nice. Mine is coming from Protooling from Australia as well. 



HRC_64 said:


> Now we know why the pricing shills are in this thread LOL



Pricing shills?? What do you mean?


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## wind88 (Sep 29, 2019)

That makes 3 of us. I bought mine from pro tooling as well. Great guys. I have purchased more after such great customer service


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## DitmasPork (Sep 29, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Pricing shills?? What do you mean?


 +1


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 29, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Haha nice. Mine is coming from Protooling from Australia as well.


Nope. Same country different vendor. I got my 210 and 240 gyutos from The Blade Runner


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## Foltest (Sep 29, 2019)

My tf nashiji petty, if you look closely, you might be able to spot areas without overgrind


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## CiderBear (Sep 29, 2019)

@wind88 yeah, I can't say enough good things about Paul. What other knife did you order from him?


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## wind88 (Sep 29, 2019)

A Jiro and a kikuchiyo gyuto


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## captaincaed (Sep 29, 2019)

TF Steel is legit. Never had a knife eat into the board like my Denka. Crazy acute angles and just great retention. TFTFTF
That said, yeah the finish is rough. The two examples I compared were clearly different in terms of weight and thickness, but the overall design leaves things pretty close.


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## lemeneid (Sep 30, 2019)

The grinds on my Maboroshi gyuto and Denka petty even. I can achieve a pretty even kasumi with not much problem. Trick is to use a nice muddy stone with slight concavity. Its actually pretty easy to thin their stainless cladding and it doesn't feel gummy at all.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 30, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Yes, but you seem to have built that cost into your business model so you are not faced with the conflict of having to increase your price at home because someone overseas wants to sell your product and their costs are higher.
> 
> Hong Kong is not a great example because there are no duties, unlike the US or Japan.
> What happens if a knife shop in Thailand wants to sell your bags, but there is a 70% duty on goods to protect Thai workers. Australia is another country with high protective tariffs.
> ...



Undercutting one's own vendor is not cool. The world is a tiny place with because of the internet.

I know that retail is complex with a lot of different business models—vendors sometimes needing to raise prices to cover costs. Just saying, generally, that for a knife maker to sell direct for much less than what a vendor charges is not ideal.

On another thread, someone mentioned that if one wanted to really support knife makers, that they should buy direct. That sentiment is naive—and a collection would be extremely limited if one only bought direct from the maker. Most makers have no interest in selling direct—using a vendor to avoid the hassle of dealing with customers, shipping, answering emails, etc. Watanabe, Hide, Heiji, TF are exceptions. A Shi.Han knife is priced the same direct or from through his vendors—which is good.

Even the playing field.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 30, 2019)

I just found out there is also a Morihei W#1 Hisamoto 270 gyuto and a Nakiri with soft iron cladding. I've not seen any sites offering these versions online though, but they have been produced. There is also a petty too. The TF/Morihei connection goes way back and even though its small volume, TF will continue to produce these knives.


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## Alder26 (Sep 30, 2019)

iI have owned a 210 Maboroshi (which i sold) and I currently own a morihei 210. I sold the Maboroshi because fit and finish was so bad and the edge was very chippy. I am keeping the morihei because for 200$ the bevels are flat, the steel is fantastic, and the finish of the blade is a unique rustic KU. I think TF is overpriced when the morihei option is available


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 30, 2019)

Alder26 said:


> iI have owned a 210 Maboroshi (which i sold) and I currently own a morihei 210. I sold the Maboroshi because fit and finish was so bad and the edge was very chippy. I am keeping the morihei because for 200$ the bevels are flat, the steel is fantastic, and the finish of the blade is a unique rustic KU. I think TF is overpriced when the morihei option is available


Unless you really need stainless cladding, the Morihei is the way to go. I'm a total convert. This line really gives you the best of everything (price, performance, aesthetics, even/consistent grind and better F&F) so long as you like Western handles. Now if only they could offer a 240 or 270 sujihiki.....


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## parbaked (Sep 30, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Undercutting one's own vendor is not cool.
> Even the playing field.



I can't understand why you keep complaining about this.
EE and Bernal and other TF retailers don't care. They do business with TF knowing his direct prices.
The retailers who don't like it stopped selling TF.
This is how the free market works.
Calling this idiotic, naive or undercutting is wrong.

Do you really think it would be better if TF increased his prices so we couldn't buy direct cheaper?
Who would that help?
Are you equally upset by Heiji "undercutting" JKI?
Is that ok because Jon ads value with his QC and service.
EE and Bernal ad value to their TF price too by offering free initial sharpening , QC, easy returns etc.
Why are you ok buying Heiji from JKI but think the TF model is unacceptable?

Having the same price everywhere in the world is not an even playing field. Costs are different everywhere.
Retailers fix their prices based on a large number of criteria including their actual costs as well as any contractual pricing agreements. It doesn't always equal the same price in all world markets.

Consider the "Big Mac index" which measures the cost of living in different markets based on the price of a Big Mac in different countries. Costs and therefore prices are different everywhere.

Japanese consumers are used to paying more for imported items than those items' cost in the items home country.
They are not offended. It's one reason they love to travel and shop...to get "bargains".
If you ever get to Japan, go price brands like Alden shoes or Leica or Haliburton...you'll see how it works.

I'll give you a simple example since you have a Leica.
Price the little Q2 (model 19050) direct from Leica Germany. Price is 4995 Euros
https://www.leica-store-muenchen.de/en/product/15155/leica-q2-black

Same camera from Leica direct in Japan is 748000 Yen or 6345 Euro
https://store.leica-camera.jp/products/detail/883

So Leica sells the same camera in Germany for over 20% less than it sells for in Japan.
Is Leica idiotic and undercutting its Japan retailers?
BTW this same camera is only $4995 MSRP in the US.
Would you be happier if Leica charged the Japan price in the US ($6900) so we have an "even playing field"?

It's great that some knife brands have pretty uniform pricing, but it's not the only correct way to do business.
Please try to be more open minded and less judgmental...


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## CiderBear (Sep 30, 2019)

@Corradobrit1 oh my gosh, a nakiri version exists?? You're killing me!

Mine should get here next week. I'm very excited for it. I should thank you again for telling me about it  I'm sure @Koakuma is thankful also. Always happy to see a thread with a happy ending


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## Koakuma (Sep 30, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Corradobrit1 oh my gosh, a nakiri version exists?? You're killing me!
> 
> Mine should get here next week. I'm very excited for it. I should thank you again for telling me about it  I'm sure @Koakuma is thankful also. Always happy to see a thread with a happy ending


I am very grateful for sure  Super happy I was able to get a hold of a 240mm ku Morihei. Glad that you were able to grab a 210mm as well.


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## CiderBear (Sep 30, 2019)

@Koakuma have you had more chance to play with it yet? Do you like it more than your old TF?


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## Koakuma (Sep 30, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Koakuma have you had more chance to play with it yet? Do you like it more than your old TF?


I haven't used it since last prep. I did however sharpen it with 1k and 3k stones. Right now this knife is hair shavingly sharp. Definitely loving the KU way more than the old TF haha. I love the the fact this knife isnt very reactive yet takes on great patina. I can say for sure that I am very comfortable using it in professional kitchen.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 30, 2019)

Koakuma said:


> I haven't used it since last prep. I did however sharpen it with 1k and 3k stones. Right now this knife is hair shavingly sharp. Definitely loving the KU way more than the old TF haha. I love the the fact this knife isnt very reactive yet takes on great patina. I can say for sure that I am very comfortable using it in professional kitchen.


I concur it gets wicked sharp with virtually no effort. I was using a Gesshin 4K which is on the more abrasive side of 4K, more like a 2-3K. Easily passes my leg hair shaving test
Its reactivity characteristics are what really endear me to the Ku finish. Its also got the most perfect profile and tip for the how I use a 240 gyuto in the home.


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## Garm (Sep 30, 2019)

I'm on the lookout for a new 240 with a little weight to it as well.
These seem like a great alternative.
@Corradobrit: Do you contact thebladerunner for shipping outside Australia, since international is not an option on their site?


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 30, 2019)

Garm said:


> I'm on the lookout for a new 240 with a little weight to it as well.
> These seem like a great alternative.
> @Corradobrit: Do you contact thebladerunner for shipping outside Australia, since international is not an option on their site?


Yes, contact them directly. They will send you a quote incl shipping to your country. I paid $40 Aussie for the 240 Ku shipped EMS to USA. For the 210 they threw in shipping for free as I was a returning customer. Super easy to work with
https://www.facebook.com/thebladerunner.newcastle/.

With the exchange rate, buying from Australia is a no brainer.


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## Garm (Sep 30, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Yes, contact them directly. They will send you a quote incl shipping to your country. I paid $40 Aussie for the 240 Ku shipped EMS to USA. For the 210 they threw in shipping for free as I was a returning customer. Super easy to work with
> https://www.facebook.com/thebladerunner.newcastle/.


Much appreciated!


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 30, 2019)

Garm said:


> Much appreciated!


I don't think they have anymore 240 Ku's but it may be worth contacting Hitohira who are the primary conduit through which these knives flow overseas. Morihei doesn't sell via mailorder


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## DitmasPork (Sep 30, 2019)

Deleted, double post.


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## DitmasPork (Oct 1, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I can't understand why you keep complaining about this.
> EE and Bernal and other TF retailers don't care. They do business with TF knowing his direct prices.
> The retailers who don't like it stopped selling TF.
> This is how the free market works.
> ...



Just my opinion of a peculiar way of selling knives that goes counter to what I believe are good business practices. Calling a knife maker choice of undercutting his/her's vendor as "idiotic or naive" is certainly not "wrong," but simply one valid viewpoint among many.


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## Marek07 (Oct 1, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> _<snip> _With the exchange rate, buying from Australia is a no brainer.


Unless you're an Australian...


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## lemeneid (Oct 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Just my opinion of a peculiar way of selling knives that goes counter to what I believe are good business practices. Calling a knife maker choice of undercutting his/her's vendor as "idiotic or naive" is certainly not "wrong," but simply one valid viewpoint among many.


At the same time, distributor/wholesaler cost is always much lower than retail. TF definitely falls in this category. Bernal, etc are retailers, so their prices are definitely much higher. Sure, you can buy direct from TF at a much lower cost, but you have to deal with language differences, problems with warranty, etc. Of course you can visit the TF shop and get it there but you need to pay for a nice plane ticket. If you buy retail, you get english speaking staff, warranty, and QC. Thats the benefit and thats why retail is always going to be slightly higher.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 1, 2019)

Marek07 said:


> Unless you're an Australian...


And if no-deal Brexit happens we can add the UK to the list.


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## McMan (Oct 1, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> And if no-deal Brexit happens we can add the UK to the list.


Catchesides and DPs for all!


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 1, 2019)

McMan said:


> Catchesides and DPs for all!


You know it. And gallons of Scotch Single Malt.


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## McMan (Oct 1, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> You know it. And gallons of Scotch Single Malt.


Isn't most of that stuff just from Canada anyway?


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## DitmasPork (Oct 1, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> At the same time, distributor/wholesaler cost is always much lower than retail. TF definitely falls in this category. Bernal, etc are retailers, so their prices are definitely much higher. Sure, you can buy direct from TF at a much lower cost, but you have to deal with language differences, problems with warranty, etc. Of course you can visit the TF shop and get it there but you need to pay for a nice plane ticket. If you buy retail, you get english speaking staff, warranty, and QC. Thats the benefit and thats why retail is always going to be slightly higher.



Cheers. Yes, I do understand the mechanics of how things work—I’m under do allusion that it’ll change, but just don’t view it as ideal.


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## CiderBear (Oct 12, 2019)

I tried to put a new edge on the Morihei last night with a set of Gesshin 2k and 4k I'm borrowing, and that knife put a stupid grin on my face. 

Maybe that was because I worked on it after struggling with a White #2 knife that shall not be named for a good chunk of time, but holy crap, TFTFTFTFTFTF


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 12, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> I tried to put a new edge on the Morihei last night with a set of Gesshin 2k and 4k I'm borrowing, and that knife put a stupid grin on my face.
> 
> Maybe that was because I worked on it after struggling with a White #2 knife that shall not be named for a good chunk of time, but holy crap, TFTFTFTFTFTF


Welcome to the club. TFTFTF Club


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## CiderBear (Oct 12, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Welcome to the club. TFTFTF Club


Honestly though, it's it just White 1? or is it TF's special White 1?
@lemeneid I'm guessing Denkas don't feel as nice on the stone... right? (please say yes. I'm so broke)


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 12, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Honestly though, it's it just White 1? or is it TF's special White 1?
> @lemeneid I'm guessing Denkas don't feel as nice on the stone... right? (please say yes. I'm so broke)


According to TF the steel is NOT white 1. Its a special order steel with slightly more carbon content than W#1. Suits their manufacture processes better apparently. Denka's take more work but the advantage is the edge lasts longer. In the home kitchen I don't think you'd notice much of a difference tbh. Your wallet can relax.....


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## CiderBear (Oct 12, 2019)

@Corradobrit1 All I can hear is that my rule of one knife one steel each rule can be relaxed since the Morihei isn't true White 1. So I still have room for a White 1


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 12, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Corradobrit1 All I can hear is that my rule of one knife one steel each rule can be relaxed since the Morihei isn't true White 1. So I still have room for a White 1


There you go.... Start saving for the BF/CM sales with clear conscience. You can also get a Denka and still not break your rule by getting another AS blade


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## CiderBear (Oct 12, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> There you go.... Start saving for the BF/CM sales with clear conscience. You can also get a Denka and still not break your rule by getting another AS blade



Is the Denka a special version of AS?


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 12, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Is the Denka a special version of AS?


Indeed.


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## CiderBear (Oct 12, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Indeed.



That is not advantageous information for me.


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## Matus (Oct 12, 2019)

I am having hard time believing that one single maker would be able to get a special composition steel from Hitachi. I mean, it is not impossible, but I keep hearing that quite some JP makers have hard time ordering ‘normal’ white or blue steel because they are not ordering large enough quantities.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 12, 2019)

Matus said:


> I am having hard time believing that one single maker would be able to get a special composition steel from Hitachi. I mean, it is not impossible, but I keep hearing that quite some JP makers have hard time ordering ‘normal’ white or blue steel because they are not ordering large enough quantities.


No reason for my source to exaggerate, and TF is a big enough producer to justify large orders of steel. I know the Nashiji gyuto W#1 does not behave like Maboroshi and Morihei Hisamoto W#1, so I'm falling on the side of truth.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 12, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Fully agree, but its not hard to find good ones. Its the bad ones that are more likely to end up on BST



I got my hammer finish stainless clad TF white #1 on BST for around 100.00 less than new. It had never been sharpened or used at all. Maybe just to cut a few items. A few members were concerned about the grind. I jumped on it chance to try a TF. It is 54mm at heel, 213mm long. Wa handle just how I like them not to long not to thin have large hands.

Sometimes use the notch, not always. The grind is thicker up top & thins to the edge starting right below the hammer marks. It is a good cutter.

Keep seeing folks wondering if full carbons work well in pro kitchen. That's where a full carbon works best hours a day every day. At home still have KU carbons. Since retired most gyuto carbon core stainless clad like the TF. I will not sell this knife it's a keeper.


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## Matus (Oct 12, 2019)

I am only wondering, not questioning your source. 

I would not put too much weight in ‘different feel’ though as even the same steel could feel very different if the HT differs.


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## parbaked (Oct 12, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> According to TF the steel is NOT white 1. Its a special order steel with slightly more carbon content than W#1.



I think something was lost in translation.

I have a different understanding based on my conversation with TF when I met him at his shop.
TF showed me the steel he uses in the Maboroshi and Nashiji lines.
He also showed me their composition in a Hitachi catalog. It is was not a special formulation.
The only thing he said was special is that he's hoarded some nice old stock.

Hitachi makes two types of White #1: Type A & B which differ in carbon content.
TF use Type A, which has more carbon content, for the Maboroshi and Type B, with less carbon, for the Nashiji.
So the steel used in the Maboroshi has more carbon, but it is not proprietary to TF.

Maybe the Denka use a proprietary AS, I didn't ask.
But the white steel that TF showed me is off the shelf...

I think what's special about TF white steel is the heat treat and the stainless cladding process he developed. 
These are both different on the Maboroshi and the Nashiji, which might explain why they feel different on the stones...


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 12, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I think something was lost in translation.
> 
> I have a different understanding based on my conversation with TF when I met him at his shop.
> TF showed me the steel he uses in the Maboroshi and Nashiji lines.
> ...


Could be. If there is more than one type of W#1 with A having more C content then that could explain the difference. I understand Nashiji is prelaminated bar stock, whereas Mab is inhouse forged and the W#1 differences between the 2 would explain their performance variation.


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## parbaked (Oct 12, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Could be. If there is more than one type of W#1 with A having more C content then that could explain the difference.



These are the compositions of Type A and Type B:
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/Hitachi/shirogami_1a.shtml
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/shirogami_1b.shtml

You can see that A has slightly more carbon than B.


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## HRC_64 (Oct 12, 2019)

parbaked said:


> These are the compositions of Type A and Type B:
> http://zknives.com/knives/steels/Hitachi/shirogami_1a.shtml
> http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/shirogami_1b.shtml
> 
> You can see that A has slightly more carbon than B.



Wow, 1.4 carbon is ALOT of carbon


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## parbaked (Oct 12, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Wow, 1.4 carbon is ALOT of carbon


It's to compensate for carbon that burns off in the forging process...


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## Garm (Oct 12, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Could be. If there is more than one type of W#1 with A having more C content then that could explain the difference. I understand Nashiji is prelaminated bar stock, whereas Mab is inhouse forged and the W#1 differences between the 2 would explain their performance variation.


Are you sure the Nashiji line is pre-laminated?
That's interesting news to me. 

The version a and b of white # 1 steel makes sense, and I suspect it could apply to several other cutlery steels when you see the tolerance window for alloying elements in different steel compositions. 

I'm almost certain my next knife will be a western TF 240 of some kind, be it Mab or Morihei.


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## parbaked (Oct 12, 2019)

Garm said:


> Are you sure the Nashiji line is pre-laminated?
> That's interesting news to me.



TF only told me it's the lower carbon Type B Shirogami 1B, but it's been posted here that Kevin Kent's (Knifewear) book states that the Nashiji line use pre-laminated billet.


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## lemeneid (Oct 12, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Honestly though, it's it just White 1? or is it TF's special White 1?
> @lemeneid I'm guessing Denkas don't feel as nice on the stone... right? (please say yes. I'm so broke)


The Denka are just as nice on stones as the regular Maboroshi but come out even sharper and more aggressive 

I do sharpen on jnats though, not sure if the end result is the same on synths


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 12, 2019)

parbaked said:


> TF only told me it's the lower carbon Type B Shirogami 1B, but it's been posted here that Kevin Kent's (Knifewear) book states that the Nashiji line use pre-laminated billet.


You can also see in the knives themselves that the Nashiji are pretty consistent in thickness. Its the Mabs and Denka's that have a bit more variability.


----------



## bruce8088 (Oct 12, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I think something was lost in translation.
> 
> I have a different understanding based on my conversation with TF when I met him at his shop.
> TF showed me the steel he uses in the Maboroshi and Nashiji lines.
> ...



200% correct - this is also why nashiji is so much less exp than a maboroshi. Pretty significant difference between the two.


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## Garm (Oct 13, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> You can also see in the knives themselves that the Nashiji are pretty consistent in thickness. Its the Mabs and Denka's that have a bit more variability.


I only asked because this hasn't been my experience with the Nashiji line, but then again it's been a few years since I bought anything from TF.


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## Matus (Oct 13, 2019)

General remark - most Japanese samai knives are forged from prelaminated stock. And apparently the only way to tell is if you find a defect in the lamination, as the industrial lamination has much smaller defect rate than forge welding. So unless you know for sure that the blade was forge welded, than you are better to assume that it was not.


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## nyc (Oct 15, 2019)

From a retailer’s post on IG recently - Nashiji is pre-laminated White #1 with HRC ~ 63. Maboroshi is forge welded White #1 with HRC ~ 65.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 15, 2019)

nyc said:


> From a retailer’s post on IG recently - Nashiji is pre-laminated White #1 with HRC ~ 63. Maboroshi is forge welded White #1 with HRC ~ 65.


Certainly matches my experiences with both blade types. Do you have the link on IG?


----------



## GoodMagic (Oct 15, 2019)

What are the rebranded morhei hisimotos?


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 15, 2019)

GoodMagic said:


> What are the rebranded morhei hisimotos?


In-house forged soft iron clad Ku finish Mabs


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## GoodMagic (Oct 15, 2019)

Thank you! These are nice blades! I have two 210s. Both nicely finished blades, no grind issues, wicked lamination lines. Not much in the way of distal taper, but thin behind edge, gets very sharp. Integral a bit on th sloppy side, but I can deal with it. Love the feel, solid and balanced for my pinch grip.


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## WPerry (Oct 15, 2019)

Ugh. My itch for a TF Maboroshi is just not going away. The main thing staying my hand at this point is the promise of Black Friday - a decent deal, from a reputable dealer, on a wa-handled 195 or 210 gyuto might be irresistible. 

The Morihei Hisamoto look interesting, but I really want a wa with the TF signature finger notch; not sure that the work/expense involved in converting would be worth it in the end.


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## labor of love (Oct 15, 2019)

WPerry said:


> Ugh. My itch for a TF Maboroshi is just not going away. The main thing staying my hand at this point is the promise of Black Friday - a decent deal, from a reputable dealer, on a wa-handled 195 or 210 gyuto might be irresistible.
> 
> The Morihei Hisamoto look interesting, but I really want a wa with the TF signature finger notch; not sure that the work/expense involved in converting would be worth it in the end.


I felt the same way before I took the dive. Follow your instincts and wait until you find the one you really want.


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## parbaked (Oct 15, 2019)

Unless your instinct is to buy the Morihei and grind your own finger notch...


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 15, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Unless your instinct is to buy the Morihei and grind your own finger notch...


Morihei TF's are only available with western handles, at least the ones available from 3rd parties that ship.


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## parbaked (Oct 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Morihei TF's are only available with western handles, at least the ones available from 3rd parties that ship.


I know...I was referring to WPerry's comment of converting a Morihei to a wa-handle with finger notch.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 15, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I know...I was referring to WPerry's comment of converting a Morihei to a wa-handle with finger notch.


Guess I wasn't reading into his aim as much. I've not heard of anyone converting a western handle knife to Wa. Better to have them custom make a knife to your specs.


----------



## WPerry (Oct 15, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I know...I was referring to WPerry's comment of converting a Morihei to a wa-handle with finger notch.





Corradobrit1 said:


> Guess I wasn't reading into his aim as much. I've not heard of anyone converting a western handle knife to Wa. Better to have them custom make a knife to your specs.



Yup, that's what I was insinuating. The models without the bolster don't _seem_ like they'd be that tough to mod, but still more faff than worthwhile.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Oct 15, 2019)

Read about the TF's few years on this forum. Wanted a wa handle. Held back because talk of bad grinds F&F issues etc. Checked out BST until found a good deal on the Maboroshi.

I'm not as anal retentive about F&F as long as the knife works well. The hammer marks have some areas of light & dark grey from the forge, like that. The blade is straight, grind is good, & it has good edge retention pretty sure it is my first knife with W#1 steel. Have had & still do plenty W#2 blades.


----------



## nyc (Oct 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Certainly matches my experiences with both blade types. Do you have the link on IG?


Here you go: https://www.instagram.com/p/B3ZZCPfjwhK/?igshid=1mbj17avhuim2
It’s a little further down the post.


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## SilverSwarfer (Oct 16, 2019)

How could one be sure in determining Denka vs Maboroshi:

Is there a way to visually positively identify Denka vs Maboroshi? My experience suggests the Denka are more kurouchi while Maboroshi are (more) polished. I do not recognize different kanji.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 16, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> How could one be sure in determining Denka vs Maboroshi:
> 
> Is there a way to visually positively identify Denka vs Maboroshi? My experience suggests the Denka are more kurouchi while Maboroshi are (more) polished. I do not recognize different kanji.


(Most) Maboroshi style blades have a hammered polished finish. I have a 135 petty that has the Denka-like blackened finish but its not hammered. The Denka has the hammered Ku finish still intact. The kanji are the same.

You can see some of the various TF/Morihei Ku finishes here
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/show-your-newest-knife-buy.7655/page-483#post-644563


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## Ivang (Oct 16, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> How could one be sure in determining Denka vs Maboroshi:
> 
> Is there a way to visually positively identify Denka vs Maboroshi? My experience suggests the Denka are more kurouchi while Maboroshi are (more) polished. I do not recognize different kanji.




I have a red handled denka 210 that has already lost most of its kurouchi, when it finishes fading away it will look exactly the same as a mabo.

In my very limited experience, denkas are thinner at the spine, and feature a less pronounced distal taper than mabos.


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 16, 2019)

Ivang said:


> I have a red handled denka 210 that has already lost most of its kurouchi, when it finishes fading away it will look exactly the same as a mabo.
> 
> In my very limited experience, denkas are thinner at the spine, and feature a less pronounced distal taper than mabos.


Based on my limited experience I think you are right. But they are hand-forged and there is considerable blade to blade variation with TF's. My Ku finishes have held up extremely well but I only wash with water and wipe them dry with a cloth towel.


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## SilverSwarfer (Oct 16, 2019)

Is this a Moboroshi or a Denka? Or neither:?


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 16, 2019)

Def Denka

Here's another handleless one from Bernal
http://bernal-cutlery.shoplightspeed.com/fujiwara-210mm-gyuto-aogami-super-wa-un-handled.html


----------



## nyc (Oct 17, 2019)

Is that rust in the kanji? Looks cool though.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 17, 2019)

nyc said:


> Is that rust in the kanji? Looks cool though.


Cladding is stainless steel so not rust. Its a residual effect from the forging process. Cool.... yes


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 17, 2019)

Is that yours? You're lucky, thats a VERY thin Denka.


SilverSwarfer said:


> Is this a Moboroshi or a Denka? Or neither:?


----------



## RDalman (Oct 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Cladding is stainless steel so not rust. Its a residual effect from the forging process. Cool.... yes


Stainless can indeed rust in the right conditions. I wouldnt think they're forged after getting the kanji/logo stamps? The ones I've handled have definately looked like rust there. Maybe some chemical process is used in finishing that causes it.


----------



## captaincaed (Oct 17, 2019)

StainLESS not stainFREE. Enough heat and other chemicals, it can happen. It's wabi sabi brand, may be worth cleaning carefully even if the KU finish suffers a bit. Not sure how much rust will progress in that stainless, but as a sailor I don't trust rust anywhere. YMMV


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 17, 2019)

Its not rust as it doesn't rub off. Probably some residual artifact from one of their manufacturing
processes. Here are some extreme but IMO beautiful examples of the discoloration.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 17, 2019)

RDalman said:


> Stainless can indeed rust in the right conditions. I wouldnt think they're forged after getting the kanji/logo stamps? The ones I've handled have definately looked like rust there. Maybe some chemical process is used in finishing that causes it.


They get their stamp markings fairly early in the manufacture process


----------



## captaincaed (Oct 17, 2019)

Wow nice research!


----------



## RDalman (Oct 17, 2019)

Unusual process for sure


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Oct 17, 2019)

As I mentioned my stainless clad hammer finish specks of darker color looks like pitting in the cladding. I like it adds to the forged look of the blade.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 17, 2019)

https://www.teruyasu.net/whoweare/howto2.html

Not sure I'd want a 600-650deg bladed tool sitting between my legs while I hammer in the kanji.


----------



## inferno (Oct 17, 2019)

of course its rust, what else would it be? the stamp is most likely made out of carbon steel and then it will rust where the stainless is stamped. the carbon particles rub off and embed in the stainless and then the ss is compromised.

its a BIG nono using carbon steel brushes/tools etc on stainless, since they stop being stainless. also you keep your stainless tools separate from carbon such as grinding discs, cutoff discs etc so you dont contaminate the ss. extremely important when welding for instance.

in pretty much all industries that work with ss you usually use an acid to etch the carbon particles off, hydrofluoric acid paste.

I tried to heat up 2 blades by simply boiling in water to get the handles off. 1 kurosaki ss clad r2 and and 1 yoshikane ss clad skd11. these are both "hammered" in one way or another. they rusted like hell all over! and they started rusting very quickly too. in less than 30 seconds they were completely red/brown.

anyone wanna guess why?


----------



## M1k3 (Oct 17, 2019)

inferno said:


> of course its rust, what else would it be? the stamp is most likely made out of carbon steel and then it will rust where the stainless is stamped. the carbon particles rub off and embed in the stainless and then the ss is compromised.
> 
> its a BIG nono using carbon steel brushes/tools etc on stainless, since they stop being stainless. also you keep your stainless tools separate from carbon such as grinding discs, cutoff discs etc so you dont contaminate the ss. extremely important when welding for instance.
> 
> ...



Salty water!?!?


----------



## HRC_64 (Oct 17, 2019)

inferno said:


> of course its rust, what else would it be? ...



This comment shouldn't be controversial, but just wait...


----------



## HRC_64 (Oct 17, 2019)

"Its rust coloured patina"


----------



## ian (Oct 17, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> Salty water!?!?



Totally. Everyone knows that you have to salt the water when boiling knives. I also add a few drops of olive oil to keep the knives from sticking together.


----------



## M1k3 (Oct 17, 2019)

ian said:


> Totally. Everyone knows that you have to salt the water when boiling knives. I also add a few drops of olive oil to keep the knives from sticking together.



Then once your done, add a splash of your knife boiling water to your stone water. Bon appetit!


----------



## inferno (Oct 17, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> Salty water!?!?



No. they use carbon steel tools on the SS to make the hammered patterns. And then obviously didn't etch the carbon steel particles off. Thats why the they rusted. The boiling water just sped the process up.


----------



## inferno (Oct 17, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> This comment shouldn't be controversial, but just wait...



Its not really controversial since this phenomenon has been well known for over 100 years now. its acually just common sense.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 17, 2019)

So the orange on a large proportion of the blade in the 3rd picture I posted is rust?


----------



## inferno (Oct 17, 2019)

most likely. 

My boiled SS yoshikane looked like the nakiri you posted above but it had that rust color all over. and it did not rub off with a sponge.
had to sand it off with fine sandpaper which took about 1,5h. i had to do each little dimple separately with my thumb to get it off.

However i think that rust layer thickness is very thin, since the underlaying ss is still stainless. the surface was obviously not though.


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 18, 2019)

Why are you boiling knives? Boiling them won’t make them al dente.


----------



## HRC_64 (Oct 18, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> So the orange on a large proportion of the blade in the 3rd picture I posted is rust?



Yes...its red (iron) oxide..

Keep in mind the black is "black" oxide


----------



## HRC_64 (Oct 18, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Why are you boiling knives? Boiling them won’t make them al dente.



Ironically, this is one of the ways you get a KU finish
like on the denka we are talking about

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_oxide#Hot_black_oxide



Let that sink in for a second.


----------



## inferno (Oct 18, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Why are you boiling knives? Boiling them won’t make them al dente.



I tried to warm the blade to get the tang warm the glue would soften. So i could remove the handle. turned out both of them were epoxied.. so i had to crack them off.


----------



## inferno (Oct 18, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Ironically, this is one of the ways you get a KU finish
> like on the denka we are talking about
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_oxide#Hot_black_oxide
> ...



I have made my own "rust bluing". i used hydrogen peroxide/ table salt and an acid to create red rust. then i boiled it in water to convert it to black oxide. 

But my yoshikane/kurosaki blades never got to the black state since i removed them as soon as i noticed that they started to rust. and they weren't supposed to rust at all, they are stainless, _austenitic_ stainless too, which is 10 times more stainless than hardenable SS.


----------



## inferno (Oct 18, 2019)




----------



## TSF415 (Oct 18, 2019)

This forum is like the group of friends my mom told me not to hangout with. Lol

The activity of this thread influenced my impulse buy on a maboroshi from instagram today.


----------



## CiderBear (Oct 18, 2019)

The homebutcher one ?


----------



## M1k3 (Oct 18, 2019)

TSF415 said:


> This forum is like the group of friends my mom told me not to hangout with. Lol
> 
> The activity of this thread influenced my impulse buy on a maboroshi from instagram today.



When are you going into the TF shop and picking out a Denka or five?


----------



## TSF415 (Oct 18, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> The homebutcher one ?


 @CiderBear yup. That’s the one. I had rationalized getting a knife that size being that I have mostly 240’s 270’s. And then that popped up and boom. Impulse buy away


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 18, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> When are you going into the TF shop and picking out a Denka or five?


Next Friday or Saturday, TF Denka calls out to me 

TFTFTFTFTFTFTFTF 

If anyone’s interested, I can open up a Telegram group or something so you can ask questions on the spot. Just here to help the folks who can’t make it there out


----------



## CiderBear (Oct 18, 2019)

@TSF415 congrats!! That's an interesting size, my guess is that it's an oversize 195mm  I hope you enjoy yours.

@lemeneid that's a very generous offer, thank you. I'm just really curious about these elusive "store exclusives" that people keep mentioning yet nobody seems to have decent pictures of  please make a photo-heavy post (if you're allowed to take pictures and such) for us at home


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 18, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @TSF415 congrats!! That's an interesting size, my guess is that it's an oversize 195mm  I hope you enjoy yours.
> 
> @lemeneid that's a very generous offer, thank you. I'm just really curious about these elusive "store exclusives" that people keep mentioning yet nobody seems to have decent pictures of  please make a photo-heavy post (if you're allowed to take pictures and such) for us at home


There are pics of store exclusives, I’ve seen them floating around here. The ones of stag handles, red handles and honyakis. And for sure, I’ll take as many pics as I can of the place 

I’m on the plane now though, headed to Hokkaido before going to Tokyo and visiting TF. If anyone is around in Tokyo next week, maybe we can grab a drink together or something too


----------



## CiderBear (Oct 18, 2019)

Have a safe flight and fun trip!


----------



## TSF415 (Oct 18, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> When are you going into the TF shop and picking out a Denka or five?


Haha. At this rate probably next week.


----------



## IsoJ (Oct 18, 2019)

This thread has made me looking for a TF...I know I shouldn't...


----------



## SilverSwarfer (Oct 18, 2019)

TSF415 said:


> This forum is like the group of friends my mom told me not to hangout with. Lol
> 
> The activity of this thread influenced my impulse buy on a maboroshi from instagram today.


Me too. It happened to me too. I got my Denka today. Just finished handle install. Haven’t cut anything but it feels pretty awesome on the stones!


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 18, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> Me too. It happened to me too. I got my Denka today. Just finished handle install. Haven’t cut anything but it feels pretty awesome on the stones!


Let us know how it cuts


----------



## SilverSwarfer (Oct 20, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Let us know how it cuts


I’ve put a tiny bit of work in, with the TF. Also spent some time on the stones. 

This is not a miracle knife. Nor is it head and shoulders above other well-regarded AS core SS clad Gyuto (I have a few that qualify IMO Takeda, Hinoura, Masakage Koishi). 

It is definitely an excellent knife. The heat treat, in my opinion earns its well regarded status honorably. The F&F in my case: I can only partially comment because I bought a blade only, without handle. The blade road has low spots, some relatively significant but none are catastrophic. I think all my knives came with low spots and I’m not displeased with my TF in the least. It will take a lot of time and effort to flatten but I’m not concerned with the imperfections.

I bought the knife to perform; not pretend. And it certainly delivers so far. 

Overall I’m really happy with the purchase. This is not a high value bargain knife. It’s expensive for what it is, but it’s unique enough to appeal. 

YMMV: you don’t have to spend this much to get good performance. For this price, however I got what seems like it will prove to be an elite performer. Keep in mind this is not a complete assessment but an initial impression. 

The pic is a bit of scallion I cut after breaking down and dicing 2 whole pineapples, fruit for 4 smoothies, and a basic dinner for 2. Kirenaga is impressive! The edge still has enough bite to shave scallions without any touch ups on the stones or strop.


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 21, 2019)

That’s gr


SilverSwarfer said:


> I’ve put a tiny bit of work in, with the TF. Also spent some time on the stones.
> 
> This is not a miracle knife. Nor is it head and shoulders above other well-regarded AS core SS clad Gyuto (I have a few that qualify IMO Takeda, Hinoura, Masakage Koishi).
> 
> ...


thats awesome. Now thin the knife and put a good jnat edge on it. TF of all knives benefit most from a jnat edge, especially the Denka which becomes insanely sharp and aggressive after. Synths really don’t do Denkas any justice, or any knife for that matter. But once you put a good Aizu or Aoto, or even finer edge on it, it really shines!

And definitely the Denka has the best heat treat in the industry. The edge is so stable even with such acute angles and it takes and holds that edge for the longest time. I’ve a Maboroshi and Denka side by side for a while now. And I’m giving both 50/50 duties for them. The Denka definitely has held up against the Maboroshi and against other knives.


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 21, 2019)

Anyway, an update from Gaku, he's going to set aside some knives for me when I visit the store. Says stock is a little low now, but I should be able to grab one to my liking I guess. I'll probably pick a 240 denka and maybe a 180 nakiri if budget permits. I'll probably also grab a kamisori if they have nice ones.

BTW, if anyone wants a "live stream" PM me your telegram and I'll put as many pics as I can when I visit. If anyone has any questions they would like fielded, do let me know too. Just trying my best to get the TF name out there and help the folks out here who can't visit a little.

TFTFTFTFTFTFTF


----------



## nyc (Oct 21, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Anyway, an update from Gaku, he's going to set aside some knives for me when I visit the store. Says stock is a little low now, but I should be able to grab one to my liking I guess. I'll probably pick a 240 denka and maybe a 180 nakiri if budget permits. I'll probably also grab a kamisori if they have nice ones.
> 
> BTW, if anyone wants a "live stream" PM me your telegram and I'll put as many pics as I can when I visit. If anyone has any questions they would like fielded, do let me know too. Just trying my best to get the TF name out there and help the folks out here who can't visit a little.
> 
> TFTFTFTFTFTFTF


I emailed the store some weeks back but got a reply from Naoko. How did you reach Gaku? I’m hoping to have some samples to choose from when I drop by in December.


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 21, 2019)

nyc said:


> I emailed the store some weeks back but got a reply from Naoko. How did you reach Gaku? I’m hoping to have some samples to choose from when I drop by in December.


Should it matter? Its a common email we're emailing, and anyone can respond to it I guess.
Anyway I do hope you get a nice knife too


----------



## nyc (Oct 21, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Should it matter? Its a common email we're emailing, and anyone can respond to it I guess.
> Anyway I do hope you get a nice knife too


Actually it shouldn’t. But we went round in a bit of a circle regarding VAT and de-taxing. So I never ventured further to talk about stock to choose from- at least not until I firm up my date to visit the shop. So I thought Gaku might be the go-to person since he’s always mentioned. But never mind. I was just wondering if Gaku could be reached directly instead of via the common shop email.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 21, 2019)

nyc said:


> Actually it shouldn’t. But we went round in a bit of a circle regarding VAT and de-taxing. So I never ventured further to talk about stock to choose from- at least not until I firm up my date to visit the shop. So I thought Gaku might be the go-to person since he’s always mentioned. But never mind. I was just wondering if Gaku could be reached directly instead of via the common shop email.


Gaku isn't always available. Sometimes he's in the Tokyo store sometimes like this week he's at the factory in Ibaraki. His responses to me often correlate to his availability at the store. And he doesn't have a personalized contact email.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 21, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> That’s gr
> 
> thats awesome. Now thin the knife and put a good jnat edge on it. TF of all knives benefit most from a jnat edge, especially the Denka which becomes insanely sharp and aggressive after. Synths really don’t do Denkas any justice, or any knife for that matter. But once you put a good Aizu or Aoto, or even finer edge on it, it really shines!
> 
> And definitely the Denka has the best heat treat in the industry. The edge is so stable even with such acute angles and it takes and holds that edge for the longest time. I’ve a Maboroshi and Denka side by side for a while now. And I’m giving both 50/50 duties for them. The Denka definitely has held up against the Maboroshi and against other knives.


Good to know. I've reached a point in my knife buying collection that I'm shifting focus now to upping my sharpening game. Jnat buying is such black art from what I can tell. Plenty of fake ones, stones with poor sharpening performance etc. Any guides besides buying from a trusted seller you can offer?


----------



## CiderBear (Oct 21, 2019)

Speaking of sharpening, I just ordered a Gesshin Synthetic Natural from Jon. I can't wait to try it with the Morihei. I have a feeling they'll like each other a lot


----------



## tgfencer (Oct 21, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Jnat buying is such black art from what I can tell. Plenty of fake ones, stones with poor sharpening performance etc. Any guides besides buying from a trusted seller you can offer?



In short-no. Everybody who has gone deep into jnats has their own guidelines, little tips and tricks, an eye developed by personal experience, etc, etc, but none of it is foolproof. If you can't see it and test it beforehand, you won't know for sure. That's why trusting the seller/vendor is important, they're essentially doing testing and inspecting for you and then turning around and telling you on their reputation that it's a good stone. Even then, different expectations, skill levels, personal preferences, and other factors can impact perceptions.

If you want a sure thing, stick to synthetics. With jnats, the closest you can get to a sure thing is trusting the seller. Otherwise, speculation, guesswork, and luck while exploring other avenues of acquisition may well lead you to disappointment, success, and the increasingly rare bargain.


----------



## Marek07 (Oct 21, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> BTW, if anyone wants a "live stream" PM me your telegram and I'll put as many pics as I can when I visit.


You have my Telegram so please click and send to your heart's content... and mine too!


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 21, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> In short-no. Everybody who has gone deep into jnats has their own guidelines, little tips and tricks, an eye developed by personal experience, etc, etc, but none of it is foolproof. If you can't see it and test it beforehand, you won't know for sure. That's why trusting the seller/vendor is important, they're essentially doing testing and inspecting for you and then turning around and telling you on their reputation that it's a good stone. Even then, different expectations, skill levels, personal preferences, and other factors can impact perceptions.
> 
> If you want a sure thing, stick to synthetics. With jnats, the closest you can get to a sure thing is trusting the seller. Otherwise, speculation, guesswork, and luck while exploring other avenues of acquisition may well lead you to disappointment, success, and the increasingly rare bargain.


That’s one way to look at it. The other way is that there is no bad stone, only bad ones with lots of lines and inclusions. 

I just buy tons of stones on ebay and buyee and make them work for me. If all you want is to sharpen, just buy cheap nats. No point buying from Maxim or Takashi unless you want to drop some cash on a unicorn stones which are valued purely on asthetics.


----------



## tgfencer (Oct 21, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> That’s one way to look at it. The other way is that there is no bad stone, only bad ones with lots of lines and inclusions.
> 
> I just buy tons of stones on ebay and buyee and make them work for me. If all you want is to sharpen, just buy cheap nats. No point buying from Maxim or Takashi unless you want to drop some cash on a unicorn stones which are valued purely on asthetics.



That is also entirely valid. No one needs a $500 dollar stone anymore than they need a $500 dollar knife.


----------



## inferno (Oct 21, 2019)

or you can just buy 2 synths like shapton pros. cost almost nothing.


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 21, 2019)

inferno said:


> or you can just buy 2 synths like shapton pros. cost almost nothing.


Can’t get a sharp and aggressive edge with a synth though. And a Shapton Pro which will do justice to a TF costs $300 so you’re still better off getting a jnat for $200 and spending the other $100 on a kiridashi to practice with.


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 21, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> That is also entirely valid. No one needs a $500 dollar stone anymore than they need a $500 dollar knife.


But, but, but. Teeeeee Eeeffffffffff.........


----------



## Alder26 (Oct 21, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> That’s one way to look at it. The other way is that there is no bad stone, only bad ones with lots of lines and inclusions.
> 
> I just buy tons of stones on ebay and buyee and make them work for me. If all you want is to sharpen, just buy cheap nats. No point buying from Maxim or Takashi unless you want to drop some cash on a unicorn stones which are valued purely on asthetics.



I have to say that I just bought a jumble of left over pieces of nats from watanabe and one of them is a new favorite stone for me. It's probably the most inconvenient shape ever but it works great, and a square peice of the same stone wouldve been 4-6x the price


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 21, 2019)

Yup


Alder26 said:


> I have to say that I just bought a jumble of left over pieces of nats from watanabe and one of them is a new favorite stone for me. It's probably the most inconvenient shape ever but it works great, and a square peice of the same stone wouldve been 4-6x the price


yup, koppas are a great way to start if you can’t afford a full sized stone or if the full sized stone is impossibly expensive.


----------



## CiderBear (Oct 30, 2019)

Looks like this will be available during the upcoming KW garage sale.

Me likey







https://knifewear.com/products/fujiwara-denka-wa-gyuto-240mm


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 30, 2019)

$1357 (thats about $600 for a fancy Urushi handle and saya) way out of my budget for a knife like that.

And then there's this. Whata crazy shape


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 31, 2019)

that description on knifewear sounds almost unbelievable. did TF really invent forge welding for stainless steel? any steel nerds care to chime in?


----------



## captaincaed (Oct 31, 2019)

I’m not convinced all the legends are true. Performs like a champ tho.


----------



## SilverSwarfer (Oct 31, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I’m not convinced all the legends are true. Performs like a champ tho.


Agree. Legends are “dope,” but ultimately have no bearing on actual performance. 

Speaking of performance, I’ve had my Denka in hand for 6 shifts now. Using Asahi boards and working through some heavy production, this blade really _does_ have outstanding edge retention. Also not challenging to sharpen. Thinning and regular maintenance are not so pleasant (thanks, ss cladding), but overall this is a real deal worthy performer. 

By now I’ve worked through about 80% of the overground kireha, just for my personal preference of presentation. Ultimately I don’t want to hog through dozens of sharpenings’ worth of steel just to get a clean surface. I’ve come to accept this as just a rustic tool. 

I will have a 240 and/or 270 eventually, price be damned. It’s worth the investment for me. I’ll work around catastrophic F&F issues by purchasing through a vendor and communicating my expectations clearly before I pay. It is a bit frustrating that kind of coin gets relatively rough looking products, but for me what’s lacking in aesthetics is made up in performance. 

I’m having tons of fun with my TF! Thanks to the vocal supporters for vocalizing your opinions. This time the curiosity paid off.


----------



## inferno (Oct 31, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> that description on knifewear sounds almost unbelievable. did TF really invent forge welding for stainless steel? any steel nerds care to chime in?



its quite a simple process and i guess it would have been invented about 100 years ago or so. but you never know...
maybe they were the first to emply it for knives??


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 31, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> Agree. Legends are “dope,” but ultimately have no bearing on actual performance.
> 
> Speaking of performance, I’ve had my Denka in hand for 6 shifts now. Using Asahi boards and working through some heavy production, this blade really _does_ have outstanding edge retention. Also not challenging to sharpen. Thinning and regular maintenance are not so pleasant (thanks, ss cladding), but overall this is a real deal worthy performer.
> 
> ...


Buy direct from TF, don't waste time with vendors. I was in Japan recently and aside from Morihei, everyone else who had OEM TFs were all trash and I suspect western vendors would be the same. Get yours from TF direct and you will end up with a killer blade like I did.


----------



## lemeneid (Oct 31, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Looks like this will be available during the upcoming KW garage sale.
> 
> Me likey
> 
> ...


Also, this pic just confirms my suspicions all TF vendors get stuff that looks like ass. The urushi lacquer knives I saw at TF looked nothing like that.


----------



## inferno (Oct 31, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Buy direct from TF, don't waste time with vendors. I was in Japan recently and aside from Morihei, everyone else who had OEM TFs were all trash and I suspect western vendors would be the same. Get yours from TF direct and you will end up with a killer blade like I did.



checked out the morihei site yesterday for several hours and i saw no TF knives at all. what are they called on the morihei site?? maybe i'm just blind.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 31, 2019)

Morihei Hisamoto


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Oct 31, 2019)

IMO Urushi is awful as a handle material. Way to slippery, especially when wet.


----------



## J.C (Dec 10, 2019)

Anyone tested both morihei hammered finish and KU finish? Is the food release better on the stainless clad or the iron clad?


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 10, 2019)

Inzite is the only person i know who could answer that, but as far as i know the hammered SS clad Moriheis are sold out. There's a Ku finish 210 on sale in Australia but it has a couple of major issues and were the reason I returned it.


----------



## J.C (Dec 10, 2019)

Major issues like?


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 10, 2019)

I'll pm you


----------



## parbaked (Dec 10, 2019)

I don't like TF Ku, especially not at Denka prices.
I much prefer the Maboroshi and Nashiji finishes...


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 10, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I don't like TF Ku, especially not at Denka prices.
> I much prefer the Maboroshi and Nashiji finishes...


Morihei/TF Ku is MUCH cheaper than Denka. I paid $280 for my 240.


----------



## parbaked (Dec 10, 2019)

I think Ku on stainless cladding is silly...
I went to TF shop to buy a $500 Denka and left with a $180 Maboroshi gyuto.
Took wifey out to our favorite restaurant in Kamakura with the savings...


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 10, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I think Ku on stainless cladding is silly...


Its reactive soft steel, The polished and hammered Moriheis are the SS clad versions


----------



## refcast (Dec 10, 2019)

I sanded my ku off, too. i like it better that way too. unless you want it for the look . .


----------



## parbaked (Dec 10, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Its reactive soft steel, The polished and hammered Moriheis are the SS clad versions



I think you have it backwards. Morihei may have some reactive clad TF knives, but the TF Denkas are stainless clad Ku which IMO is silly.
What's the point of a less durable Ku finish on a more expensive knife if the cladding is stainless??


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 10, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I think you have it backwards. Morihei may have some reactive clad TF knives, but the TF Denkas are stainless clad Ku which IMO is silly.
> What's the point of a less durable Ku finish on a more expensive knife if the cladding is stainless??


Ah OK. In support of the Denka, the Ku finish is quite different between it and Morihei Ku. Its also very stable in my experience with a sheen rather than matte surface. I like it much more than the polished Mab giving Denka some additional character.


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## lemeneid (Dec 11, 2019)

If you thought the Maboroshi was good, the Denka is a world of difference. It was for me. Much sharper, more aggressive, even crazier.
If you thought it was just a difference in steel, think again.


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## labor of love (Dec 11, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> If you thought the Maboroshi was good, the Denka is a world of difference. It was for me. Much sharper, more aggressive, even crazier.
> If you thought it was just a difference in steel, think again.


How is that even possible?


----------



## lemeneid (Dec 11, 2019)

labor of love said:


> How is that even possible?


I did ask Inzite about this. He thinks my Maboroshi could have been crap, so when a perfect Denka lands in my hands, it could be that difference. 
But hey, even a crap Maboroshi was my fav knife along with my Toyama honyaki, until the Denka came along, and I think that speaks volumes about how good it is.

Btw, it is lefty ground specially for me, you'll love it too


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## labor of love (Dec 11, 2019)

I’m not sold on Denka, sometime in the next month or 2 I’ll try and grab another maboroshi.
Maybe I’ll get a chance to try one someday.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 11, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I’m not sold on Denka, sometime in the next month or 2 I’ll try and grab another maboroshi.
> Maybe I’ll get a chance to try one someday.


Understandable. It took me a couple of years to talk myself into a Denka. I've no need for another 210 sanmai gyuto now.


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## labor of love (Dec 11, 2019)

Yeah, the TF maboroshi already has super nice steel. I don’t need forever edge retention, I dunno.
Maybe one day you can say “ I told you so”


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## refcast (Dec 11, 2019)

It's not a world of difference. it's noticeably better in many respects though. . . so assume the positive jump from ashi ginga to tf maboroshi in terms of steel use properties in everything except toughness. . . the denka is like an extra 10% of that jump.

Really, it feels like a steel with more alloying elements and more carbon with a heat treat that is really hard and fine grain and fine-ish carbide -feeling, with the same tf ballpark feeling while sharpening just a tad glassier. This is speaking as someone who started with a lot of tf and uses mainly other stuff now.

I'm interested in shi.han, if that means anything, cause the edge feels like heiji. And I like both heiji steels better than denka.

So compared to the heiji semistainless, the denka feels a good bit harder with more carbon and a little less refined in carbides or something. The heiji feels like its actually more alloyed (which it probably is) with less carbon and more refined feeling.

so tf is a tad harder, heiji is more refined. i like the heiji kind of biteyness, cause the tf bitiness can feel too smooth sometimes and then it suddenly cuts.hard.


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## labor of love (Dec 11, 2019)

Shihan 52100? Yes, the man is an animal.


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## labor of love (Dec 11, 2019)

Also, yes I agree w heiji steels and TF maboroshi steel description. Overall I’m not sure I find any of them more or less enjoyable to use.
I guess a denka petty would be a cheap way to test the steel


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 11, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Also, yes I agree w heiji steels and TF maboroshi steel description. Overall I’m not sure I find any of them more or less enjoyable to use.
> I guess a denka petty would be a cheap way to test the steel


I think you need to try a gyuto to get the full Denka experience. I just love the way the steel interacts with produce and the board. My Kato WH gives me the same visceral feedback. They both make me smile when I use them.


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## labor of love (Dec 11, 2019)

@Corradobrit1 have you tried a shihan?


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 11, 2019)

Not yet but would love to try one. Just can't decide which steel, sanmai or monosteel.


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## labor of love (Dec 11, 2019)

I highly recommend his mono 52100. But now it seems he’s doing new stuff w w2, maybe wh2 and blue2.
But 52100 is his bread and butter.


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## krx927 (Dec 11, 2019)

Another flawed TF...


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## TSF415 (Dec 13, 2019)

I picked up a thinned 240mm maboroshi from knifebag on ig. Got a pretty sweet deal on it and am happy I get to try out this knife. I also have a 200mm wa handle and it’s so thick but I’m not confident in thinning it yet myself. Anyways I know I’ve read about it a million times but I was surprised at how bad the f&f actually is on the handle. 

Has anyone replaced the handle on theirs? Any suggestions? Just live with it?


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## J.C (Dec 15, 2019)

A quick question before i pull the trigger on the denka. Is it better with WA or YO handle? haven’t tried a YO handle before, so im a bit curious.

thanks


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## lemeneid (Dec 15, 2019)

Yo handle is a winner for me. Better balance with the knife. You do gamble a bit with f&f issues though but for me the grind and balance are far more important in a good knife.


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## McMan (Dec 15, 2019)

J.C said:


> A quick question before i pull the trigger on the denka. Is it better with WA or YO handle? haven’t tried a YO handle before, so im a bit curious.
> 
> thanks


Wa for sure. Fit and finish on TF western handles is atrocious. 
I had a maboroshi where the bolster was crooked and the tang was crooked and dented--all of which was just filled in with gobs of black epoxy. The blade was great! The handle was junk.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

Get a red handle Yo Denka. MUCH better F&F.

The Morihei Hisamoto Yo handle is actually a step up over the regular Mab/Denka version. No sharp edges and chunkier in hand. Shame they can't spend a few mins extra just to finesse things.


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## labor of love (Dec 15, 2019)

Do Denka Yo handles have a better quality control than maboroshi? maboroshi yo handles are notoriously awful.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Do Denka Yo handles have a better quality control than maboroshi? maboroshi yo handles are notoriously awful.


No.....unless they're red


----------



## J.C (Dec 15, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Yo handle is a winner for me. Better balance with the knife. You do gamble a bit with f&f issues though but for me the grind and balance are far more important in a good knife.



i will keep that in mind, hoping to receive some photos tomorrow. finger cross.



McMan said:


> Wa for sure. Fit and finish on TF western handles is atrocious.
> I had a maboroshi where the bolster was crooked and the tang was crooked and dented--all of which was just filled in with gobs of black epoxy. The blade was great! The handle was junk.



Wow. Didn’t expect to hear this. i have heard a lot regarding “not perfect” f&f on the handle but this is new level.
I will see the photos tomorrow and make my decision by then.


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## J.C (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> No.....unless they're red



any idea on how to get these one? Is there any way to request or i need to buy in person?


----------



## labor of love (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> No.....unless they're red


Even my wa handle was crooked and had uncentered install. Screw it.
TFTFTFTFTF


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

J.C said:


> any idea on how to get these one? Is there any way to request or i need to buy in person?


Owners I know picked these up in person at the shop in Tokyo


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Even my wa handle was crooked and had uncentered install. Screw it.
> TFTFTFTFTF


Its not uncommon to see this even for higher priced Japanese knife brands renowned for superior F&F. I've seen it myself.


----------



## labor of love (Dec 15, 2019)

I’m not really complaining.


----------



## McMan (Dec 15, 2019)

J.C said:


> i will keep that in mind, hoping to receive some photos tomorrow. finger cross.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One thing to keep in mind...
Straightening a wa handle or replacing it (with a custom later if that's your thing) is easy enough.
Very little can be done to address problems with a Western handle. Some of these problems won't show up in photos (like crooked bolsters or rough edges, high rivets, etc.)


----------



## TSF415 (Dec 15, 2019)

McMan said:


> One thing to keep in mind...
> Straightening a wa handle or replacing it (with a custom later if that's your thing) is easy enough.
> Very little can be done to address problems with a Western handle. Some of these problems won't show up in photos (like crooked bolsters or rough edges, high rivets, etc.)


Well I guess that answers my question about whether or not it’s possible to regardless the western handle. 

For me the yo makes more sense. The little notch makes sense. It just feels more balanced and purposeful.


----------



## wind88 (Dec 15, 2019)

TFTFTF


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

McMan said:


> Very little can be done to address problems with a Western handle.


Not true. There are plenty of options. Its just a matter of finding someone willing to do the work. Here's a very good example
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/teruyasu-fujiwara-denka-no-hoto.44604/#post-658650


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## McMan (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not true. There are plenty of options. Its just a matter of finding someone willing to do the work. Here's a very good example
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/teruyasu-fujiwara-denka-no-hoto.44604/#post-658650



Sure, you could send it out to be repaired. But that’s not ideal, won’t be cheap, and there is no guarantee it can be done in the first place. 
Plus, you can’t put metal back on where it’s not (if the tang is dented or the bolster is crooked or differently sized on each side). The point is that it is much easier and cheaper to deal with an issue with a wa handle than a western.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

Repair?....hardly. Sure, not as easy or as cheap as a Wa rehandle but not crazy and when you find a great example well worth the investment IMO. Ultimately TF's are all about the grind and HT.

Here's another beautiful example


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## McMan (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Repair?....hardly.
> 
> Here's another beautiful example
> View attachment 66875



I dont think OP is in the market for a custom re-handle of a brand new knife. At least he didn’t say so in the post.
I’m speaking from experience with just how bad TF western handles can be.
Dave re-handled one for me years ago, and he had to convert it to hidden tang.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

Here is my Ebony handle Denka. I consider this to be 95% perfect. Yes, a couple of edges around the bolster but they don't bother me enough to break out the emory paper. Choil is nicely eased. No gobs of filler and pins are flush. To suggest Yo handle TF's are likely to be basket cases is incorrect and misleading to potential buyers. If the knife is purchased direct they are happy to ease the spine, bolster and choil at no cost. Just ask.


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## McMan (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> View attachment 66878
> 
> Here is my Ebony handle Denka. I consider this to be 95% perfect. Yes, a couple of edges around the bolster but they don't bother me enough to break out the emory paper. Choil is nicely eased. No gobs of filler and pins are flush. If the knife is purchased direct they are happy to ease the spine, bolster and choil at no cost. Just ask.
> View attachment 66876
> View attachment 66877


This thread might be helpful:
Dave saw fit to start a thread using my TF as an example of a re-handling headache 
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...a-knife.27844/?p=424689&viewfull=1#post424689


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## McMan (Dec 15, 2019)

And the end result...


----------



## HRC_64 (Dec 15, 2019)

LMAO how this thread turned from a TF problem knife thread into TF chearleading thread

As a side note, you can sandpaper yo handles with 400 grit and fix alot of that minor stuff....rough edges and whatever ar no match for 3m wet/dry autobody sandpapers...its just wood and metal after all no big deal...

IMHO real issue is these tf denka is like $800+ knife and for that money people want ego polish not just good HT
...of course people will still pay $2k for kato KU so its all relative


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> LMAO how this thread turned from a TF problem knife thread into TF chearleading thread
> 
> As a side note, you can sandpaper yo handles with 400 grit and fix alot of that minor stuff....rough edges and whatever ar no match for 3m wet/dry autobody sandpapers...its just wood and metal after all no big deal...
> 
> ...


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

McMan said:


> This thread might be helpful:
> Dave saw fit to start a thread using my TF as an example of a re-handling headache
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...a-knife.27844/?p=424689&viewfull=1#post424689


Out of curiosity was that a direct purchase from TF? If I'm spending this kind of money I want to see a full set of pics and specs for the knife I'll be receiving. Its the best way to avoid disappointment.


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## McMan (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Out of curiosity was that a direct purchase from TF? If I'm spending this kind of money I want to see a full set of pics and specs for the knife I'll be receiving. Its the best way to avoid disappointment.



Yup, direct from TF. About 5+ years ago. Upside, his prices were cheap then ($65 petties and $200 maboroshi 195). Downside, well you saw the pic [emoji23]


----------



## McMan (Dec 15, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> LMAO how this thread turned from a TF problem knife thread into TF chearleading thread
> 
> As a side note, you can sandpaper yo handles with 400 grit and fix alot of that minor stuff....rough edges and whatever ar no match for 3m wet/dry autobody sandpapers...its just wood and metal after all no big deal...
> 
> ...



The one thing sandpaper can’t do is put metal back where it’s missing...


----------



## labor of love (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Out of curiosity was that a direct purchase from TF? If I'm spending this kind of money I want to see a full set of pics and specs for the knife I'll be receiving. Its the best way to avoid disappointment.


So you like ordering direct right?


----------



## lemeneid (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not true. There are plenty of options. Its just a matter of finding someone willing to do the work. Here's a very good example
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/teruyasu-fujiwara-denka-no-hoto.44604/#post-658650





Corradobrit1 said:


> Repair?....hardly. Sure, not as easy or as cheap as a Wa rehandle but not crazy and when you find a great example well worth the investment IMO. Ultimately TF's are all about the grind and HT.
> 
> Here's another beautiful example
> View attachment 66875


Sorry but those I would consider bad examples.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

labor of love said:


> So you like ordering direct right?


All 6 of my TF's were ordered direct. 3 Yo and 3 Wa


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## valgard (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not true. There are plenty of options. Its just a matter of finding someone willing to do the work. Here's a very good example
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/teruyasu-fujiwara-denka-no-hoto.44604/#post-658650


That was basically a repair, and not a small one. Handle had to be converted to hidden tang because the issues were beyond repair to keep it full tang (dented and crooked), bolster had to be filed square too. The results are amazing, but that's lots of work and not everyone can do it well.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

valgard said:


> That was basically a repair, and not a small one. Handle had to be converted to hidden tang because the issues were beyond repair to keep it full tang (dented and crooked), bolster had to be filed square too. The results are amazing, but that's lots of work and not everyone can do it well.


There are always exceptions. My Yo's look nothing like that one.


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## J.C (Dec 15, 2019)

Can anyone tell if this is example of the good one / bad one?

Its a maboroshi 240mm 
Measurement: 242 x 53 x 2.9


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

Decent looking Mab. Whats the weight? Just make sure it rolls smooth from tip to heel and there are no 'holes'


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## J.C (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Whats the weight?


233 grams


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## valgard (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> There are always exceptions. My Yo's look nothing like that one.


Yes, no doubt. The problem is that the OK looking ones are the exception...


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

valgard said:


> Yes, no doubt. The problem is that the OK looking ones are the exception...


Guess Inzite, lemeneid and I are the 'lucky' ones. Squeaky wheels also make the most noise. Nothing I've seen or heard would give me a moments hesitation buying another.


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## wind88 (Dec 15, 2019)

add me to the above list. 5 TFs all yo handle and nothing I would consider a defect or requiring repairing.


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## labor of love (Dec 15, 2019)

wind88 said:


> add me to the above list. 5 TFs all yo handle and nothing I would consider a defect or requiring repairing.


Did you order direct?


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## wind88 (Dec 15, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Did you order direct?


 3 of them were.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

These can only be ordered direct
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/question-about-tf-maboroshi.43366/page-13#post-658639


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## labor of love (Dec 15, 2019)

I’m noticing a pattern.


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## lemeneid (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> These can only be ordered direct
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/question-about-tf-maboroshi.43366/page-13#post-658639


Nope. Those are custom cleavers made for Inzite and his friend. You’ll never be able to get them, together with the chiseled kanji on them. But those are great examples though. And I’ve been told there is only 1g variance between both of them.

TF lord is indeed TF lord.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 15, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Nope. Those are custom cleavers made for Inzite and his friend. You’ll never be able to get them, together with the chiseled kanji on them. But those are great examples though. And I’ve been told there is only 1g variance between both of them.


Only the chukka is custom. The other two are off the shelf.


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## labor of love (Dec 15, 2019)

What’s the magic word you guys use when ordering direct to ensure an 11 yr old doesn’t do the handle work?


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## lemeneid (Dec 15, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Only the chukka is custom. The other two are off the shelf.


Nope, it’s all custom. I can personally say this came from the horses mouth.


----------



## bruce8088 (Dec 15, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Nope, it’s all custom. I can personally say this came from the horses mouth.



came upon this one a while ago. recalled him saying large and small special custom orders.


----------



## J.C (Dec 16, 2019)

Just curious, what is the example of good spec on a maboroshi Yo 210mm? Like the length, spine thickness and the weight. Thanks


----------



## lemeneid (Dec 16, 2019)

J.C said:


> Just curious, what is the example of good spec on a maboroshi Yo 210mm? Like the length, spine thickness and the weight. Thanks


215mm length, 54mm height 225g for yo handle


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## lemeneid (Dec 16, 2019)

J.C said:


> Can anyone tell if this is example of the good one / bad one?
> 
> Its a maboroshi 240mm
> Measurement: 242 x 53 x 2.9


Your choil looks a little fat though, but otherwise it looks good. You should take a closer shot of the cladding so I can judge if this is a good piece or not.


----------



## panda (Dec 16, 2019)

bruce8088 said:


> came upon this one a while ago. recalled him saying large and small special custom orders.


That gyuto is beautiful


----------



## lemeneid (Dec 16, 2019)




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## Garm (Dec 16, 2019)

I continue to be both fascinated and at the same time somewhat puzzled by the level of scrutiny these knives are subjected to compared to any other maker I've seen, as well as by comments often posted providing the more or less definitive and highly specific guidelines as to what makes an ideal TF.

The ideal specs for a TF with regards to how the knife will actually perform, just like any other knife IMHO, will depend on what chunk of steel it started out as, how it developed during forging, and how it was ground to best accommodate the smaller or larger variations in shape, size, profile, spine thickness and geometry the forged blank had when it reached the sharpener. This is the charm, source of annoyance, pro or con, depending on point of view, with knives that have forged geometry and finishes.
Just my personal opinion.

By all means, poor workmanship in the handle/tang area, overgrinds, bumps in the profile etc. shouldn't be overlooked when buying a TF, just as with any other maker.

For the record, I really love these knives and have only ordered direct.
I'll join the chorus...TFTFTF


----------



## Ivang (Dec 16, 2019)

I've used 1 denka, 2 maboroshis, 2 nashijis.....

TFTFTFTFTF!!!!


----------



## lemeneid (Dec 16, 2019)

Garm said:


> I continue to be both fascinated and at the same time somewhat puzzled by the level of scrutiny these knives are subjected to compared to any other maker I've seen, as well as by comments often posted providing the more or less definitive and highly specific guidelines as to what makes an ideal TF.
> 
> The ideal specs for a TF with regards to how the knife will actually perform, just like any other knife IMHO, will depend on what chunk of steel it started out as, how it developed during forging, and how it was ground to best accommodate the smaller or larger variations in shape, size, profile, spine thickness and geometry the forged blank had when it reached the sharpener. This is the charm, source of annoyance, pro or con, depending on point of view, with knives that have forged geometry and finishes.
> Just my personal opinion.
> ...


I think everyone's "ideal knife" is dependent on one's preferences. But the big selling point for TF is their steel and HT that IMHO will allow for any knife possible to be made. The steel is so tough yet stable even with so high HRC you don't ever have to worry about tipping or microchipping. And the Denka gets so aggressively sharp as any steel out there. Thats why with all the wabi sabi, TFs are still every much project knives, it will take the profile you want, the grind you want and it'll be the best knife you've ever got. He makes blades of all weights and dimensions because precisely everyone has their own style. There is no one size fits all knife.

If you know what you want you should always order direct, and ask TF if they have a knife to your liking. Some like lasers, some like heavier workhorses, but they definitely have something for everyone.


----------



## labor of love (Dec 16, 2019)

As far as I can tell denka grinds look a lot nicer than Mab grinds. Is that true?


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 16, 2019)

labor of love said:


> As far as I can tell denka grinds look a lot nicer than Mab grinds. Is that true?


From what I've seen, the Mabs tend to be chunkier as a whole but obviously there are exceptions. I've seen some pretty thicc Denka's. Not sure if that is by design or that the AS can take a more acute grind before things get problematic. I wish I could believe the wide range of variation mentioned by Lemeneid was deliberate. I have a feeling its not, but more to do with who is doing the forging that day.


----------



## labor of love (Dec 16, 2019)

So I can order direct and request a thin one?


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 16, 2019)

Thats what I did. A lot can be inferred by the specs. Eg a 210x51 Yo Denka weighing in at 230g is not going to be thin.


----------



## labor of love (Dec 16, 2019)

Okay. Thanks


----------



## panda (Dec 16, 2019)

I asked heiji to make mine under 200g and he gave me a thin grind.


----------



## lemeneid (Dec 16, 2019)

labor of love said:


> So I can order direct and request a thin one?


I wouldn't order a thin one off the bat though, you can always remove metal but not put it back. Try a fat one then thin if necessary. TF's cutting ability is rather atypical though, I was rather disappointed my Denka petty is fat as hell but it out performs every other petty I have. My Denka 240 is perfect dimensions, weight and grind for me though I would have loved it a tad heavier.


----------



## labor of love (Dec 16, 2019)

Ive already owned a fattie Mab. It’s was actually 218gram 240mm( I still remember the weight). Wa gyuto.
TBH if I have to thin a grind, get it thinner behind the edge or whatever...it’s easier to do w a thinner knife overall.
Also, as a lefty I’ve noticed the thinner the TFs are the less asymmetrical they seem to be which also works in my favor.


----------



## lemeneid (Dec 16, 2019)

You can ask for lefty ground, they can be very attentive to detail. When I was selecting the blade it was symmetrical, I had vaguely mentioned I was a lefty and was holding the knives in my left hand, next thing I knew, my knife came, slightly lefty bias.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 16, 2019)

My 210 Yo Denka is ground thin with a clear righty bias. It weighs less than 180g


----------



## J.C (Dec 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> My 210 Yo Denka is ground thin with a clear righty bias. It weighs less than 180g



That’s sick man! Almost a laser


----------



## refcast (Dec 17, 2019)

My denkas were thinner than the maboroshi. Single bevel grinds for me have been bad. . . given the three single bevel's I've had from him. (Urasuki isn't even and is deeper toward the edge, uraoshi is also uneven and not at the edges, sometimes it dips into the urasuki, etc). Functional . . . in a hobbled kind of way. They all somehow don't bend at the spine and lay flat though, which is good i guess.


----------



## Henry (Dec 17, 2019)

TF


----------



## labor of love (Dec 17, 2019)

I can’t take people that buy western handle TF knives seriously.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Dec 17, 2019)

Esp. since his basic octagon wa has good feel. Not those skinny jobs. Only stock wa like better is the burnt chestnut on my Kochi. Similar on thickness & length.


----------



## nyc (Dec 17, 2019)

I picked up a Tsubaya branded Maboroshi on my recent trip to Japan. Really pleased it. It feels great in the hand (246gm; 242mm x 53mm). The White #1 edge is amazing. Good feedback when in use. Finely toothed with excellent bite! Here are some photos: https://imgur.com/gallery/ihLrHyt


----------



## Oui Chef (Dec 17, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I can’t take people that buy western handle TF knives seriously.


 Hahaha i felt this in my soul.
Buying a blade like that with a western handle is definitely the dark arts. And yall should have heavy consciences

Though I will say Penscola's denka is very slick.


----------



## Garm (Dec 17, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> I think everyone's "ideal knife" is dependent on one's preferences. But the big selling point for TF is their steel and HT that IMHO will allow for any knife possible to be made. The steel is so tough yet stable even with so high HRC you don't ever have to worry about tipping or microchipping. And the Denka gets so aggressively sharp as any steel out there. Thats why with all the wabi sabi, TFs are still every much project knives, it will take the profile you want, the grind you want and it'll be the best knife you've ever got. He makes blades of all weights and dimensions because precisely everyone has their own style. There is no one size fits all knife.
> 
> If you know what you want you should always order direct, and ask TF if they have a knife to your liking. Some like lasers, some like heavier workhorses, but they definitely have something for everyone.



I hear you, and pretty much agree with what you're saying(though I've never tried a Denka).
The point I was trying to make was that if people get overly hung up on very detailed specs prior to ordering, then the end quality and performance they receive may actually suffer for these kinds of knives, depending on many factors during the making process like I mentioned earlier.
If the maker tries to fit every knife into a highly specific and "ideal" mold at the end of a production process(i.e. a specific height, length, weight etc.), then the more important aspects, for me at least, like how it moves through ingredients, how it's balanced and so on may actually suffer.

As an example, say I request a 210 with a flatter profile. The knife I receive, or the examples I get to choose from, may have quite different specs than another forum member's iteration, who also requested a flatter profile. Yet they may cut and move through food in a very similar manner.

The TF gyutos I've tried have had quite different specs, but IMO well within reason for these types of knives, but they have all been highly consistent in EXPERIENCE. They cut like a TF. Some knives obviously do slightly better or worse through some ingredients, and some people are also obviously unlucky in getting a poorer performing knife where the maker missed the mark. So, while I believe you're right that they make knives with different specs to accommodate user preferences, I also believe they make them or let them "unfold", so to speak, in that manner with an idea in mind of how it should cut in the end according to what the maker(s) believe, rather than trying to force the forged blade into very specific parameters.

I own a 240mm gyuto, or 230 rather, from a Sakai maker who is highly regarded and popular on this forum.
I've seen his knives(from his house brand, not comparing other OEM work) have up to a 20% variance in weight. That is rather high for a wa-handle 240. Choil shots of these knives, which can of course tell either a lot or next to nothing about a knife, are also wildly differing in both thickness, as well as amounts of convexity and asymmetry. Yet I can't remember seeing anyone criticizing the maker on this forum for these variations and inconsistencies. I guess most people, like myself, must be satisfied with how the knives perform without getting too caught up in the detailed specs.

I'm just a home cook though, and my knives see limited time on the board.
I can definitely see a pro doing hours of prep being way more sensitive and demanding to many aspects of knives and their use.

Btw, this thread is making me yearn for a Denka!


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 17, 2019)

nyc said:


> I picked up a Tsubaya branded Maboroshi on my recent trip to Japan. Really pleased it. It feels great in the hand (246gm; 242mm x 53mm). The White #1 edge is amazing. Good feedback when in use. Finely toothed with excellent bite! Here are some photos: https://imgur.com/gallery/ihLrHyt


Wish the TF branded blades had that level of F&F. Morihei TF's are close second. Would shut up the naysayers.

Curious, what was the price?


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## Midsummer (Dec 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Wish the TF branded blades had that level of F&F. Morihei TF's are close second. Would shut up the naysayers.



There will always be naysayers.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 17, 2019)

3 TF threads on front page. Way to go TFTFTFTFTF.....


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## lemeneid (Dec 17, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Wish the TF branded blades had that level of F&F. Morihei TF's are close second. Would shut up the naysayers.
> 
> Curious, what was the price?


This one is an outlier. The ones I saw at Tsubaya were mostly trash. With worse F&F than TF. Price is about the same too IIRC.


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## panda (Dec 17, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> View attachment 66919
> 
> 
> View attachment 66918


i want a WA maboroshi that looks like that!!


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## toddnmd (Dec 17, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I can’t take people that buy western handle TF knives seriously.



I prefer the feel of the western handle with the finger notch. Enough that I’m going to hold on to my yo Mab, and let go of my wa Denka. And I generally prefer wa.


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## Barmoley (Dec 17, 2019)

toddnmd said:


> I prefer the feel of the western handle with the finger notch. Enough that I’m going to hold on to my yo Mab, and let go of my wa Denka. And I generally prefer wa.


Yeah, WA + finger notch make very little sense if WA is normal and not too big at the blade side or the neck/emoto too short.


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## toddnmd (Dec 17, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Yeah, WA + finger notch make very little sense if WA is normal and not too big at the blade side or the neck/emoto too short.



The neck on mine is pretty long, which felt better in the shop. But after some more at-home use, I prefer the yo.


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## labor of love (Dec 17, 2019)

I didn’t mind the wa + fingerslot honestly. I did mind that the finger slot was super sharp and not even remotely rounded. It felt like it had been a sharpened


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## Barmoley (Dec 18, 2019)

It's not that finger notch is bad with Wa it just doesn’t add anything significant to Wa handles, with Yo handles it can make them more comfortable, assuming it is not sharp


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## Marek07 (Dec 18, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I didn’t mind the wa + fingerslot honestly. I did mind that the finger slot was super sharp and not even remotely rounded. It felt like it had been a sharpened


TF's revenge!


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## labor of love (Dec 18, 2019)

Inb4 “my finger slot was perfectly rounded” not to be confused with such classics as “all my yo handle TFs are flawless” and “all my TFs have impeccable grinds.”


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## alex3245 (Dec 18, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> 3 TF threads on front page


Apparently there will be another price increase soon


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## J.C (Dec 18, 2019)

From what i heard, morihei hisamoto will increase 40% for new batch and will be available end of Feb next year.
Not sure about TF, will confirm with Gaku later


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## lemeneid (Dec 18, 2019)

Sure. Because Gaku definitely knows Morihei’s pricing strategy


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## lemeneid (Dec 18, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Inb4 “my finger slot was perfectly rounded” not to be confused with such classics as “all my yo handle TFs are flawless” and “all my TFs have impeccable grinds.”


That’s why you shouldn’t get from retailers, because you will never get options like eased spine and choil, friction fit saya, perfect handles, and proper even grinds. Buy direct, tell them what you want, solve your problem!

But hey, if you guys insist retailers get the best stuff instead of the trash like what the experienced folks tell you, who am I to stop you?


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 18, 2019)

J.C said:


> From what i heard, morihei hisamoto will increase 40% for new batch and will be available end of Feb next year.
> Not sure about TF, will confirm with Gaku later


I think I know who told you that

Hitohira are already showing prices with the increases


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## sleepy (Dec 18, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> That’s why you shouldn’t get from retailers, because you will never get options like eased spine and choil, friction fit saya, perfect handles, and proper even grinds. Buy direct, tell them what you want, solve your problem!
> 
> But hey, if you guys insist retailers get the best stuff instead of the trash like what the experienced folks tell you, who am I to stop you?



Wait, so if I order directly from TF, I can just request a perfect handle and even grind and it'll be fine? Also what does eased spine and choil mean?


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## ian (Dec 18, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Also what does eased spine and choil mean?



Easing means you soften the harsh right angles on the spine and choil, rounding them a bit so it’s more comfortable.

I also find this whole thing kind of unbelievable. It’d be nice if TF could just have multiple choice options on their website:

x Even grind
x Many overgrinds

x Good handle installation
x Crooked handle installation

Probably the retailers would catch on eventually and start selecting the first options in their own bulk orders, though.


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## J.C (Dec 18, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Wait, so if I order directly from TF, I can just request a perfect handle and even grind and it'll be fine?



You need to understand one thing. The definition of good and perfect (from TF side) might not be “good” and “perfect” for you


----------



## zeaderan (Dec 18, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> That’s why you shouldn’t get from retailers, because you will never get options like eased spine and choil, friction fit saya, perfect handles, and proper even grinds. Buy direct, tell them what you want, solve your problem!
> 
> But hey, if you guys insist retailers get the best stuff instead of the trash like what the experienced folks tell you, who am I to stop you?



This thread convinced me to go in on the vendor website and get a 210 mab... Just curious how have you worded your requests for eased spine, straight handle, proper grind etc without sounding rude? I love the good things being said so I just went for it but the same fear of getting a lemon which stopped me before still lingers


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## nyc (Dec 18, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Wish the TF branded blades had that level of F&F. Morihei TF's are close second. Would shut up the naysayers.
> 
> Curious, what was the price?


TF can and does produce consistent and defect-free work. Perhaps he’s held to a higher QC standard in a B2B situation. I figured that there would be very little chance that these customers would accept inferior workmanship. After all, they are putting their own names/brands on the knives. And selling them when they clearly have issues is just going to be damaging to their business/reputation as a whole.
I can’t comment on the quality of the stock that online retailers in the West carry. But Tsubaya and Morihei aren’t that far from TF’s shop in Meguro. Any quality issues can be quite easily dealt with (as compared to an online seller in the West). So I really can’t imagine TF sending over a box of duds to either Tsubaya or Morihei.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 18, 2019)

nyc said:


> TF can and does produce consistent and defect-free work. Perhaps he’s held to a higher QC standard in a B2B situation. I figured that there would be very little chance that these customers would accept inferior workmanship. After all, they are putting their own names/brands on the knives. And selling them when they clearly have issues is just going to be damaging to their business/reputation as a whole.
> I can’t comment on the quality of the stock that online retailers in the West carry. But Tsubaya and Morihei aren’t that far from TF’s shop in Meguro. Any quality issues can be quite easily dealt with (as compared to an online seller in the West). So I really can’t imagine TF sending over a box of duds to either Tsubaya or Morihei.


Lemeneid said your perfect Tsubaya TF was an outlier. And I had a 210 Morihei TF with significant issues and returned it.


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## nyc (Dec 18, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Lemeneid said your perfect Tsubaya TF was an outlier. And I had a 210 Morihei TF with significant issues and returned it.


Perhaps. There were then at least 5 outliers that day. Plus the display unit, the sales lady brought out another 4 for me to select from. All were fine.


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## lemeneid (Dec 19, 2019)

Tsubaya is tourist trap trash, the ones I saw when I was there were all crap. In any case, I have a trusted friend going to Japan again in March, we'll know if the OEM stuff is good or not. But I can definitely tell you the TF ones were all finished well.


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## HRC_64 (Dec 19, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Lemeneid said your perfect Tsubaya TF was an outlier. And I had a 210 Morihei TF with significant issues and returned it.



Morihei branded resold TF's are relatively low grade knives, not speacial editions....why are you suprised by this?



> Wanda: Let me correct you on a few things. Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not “Every Man for Himself”. And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked ’em up



Hope ya'll have a sense of humour about this


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## nyc (Dec 19, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Lemeneid said your perfect Tsubaya TF was an outlier. And I had a 210 Morihei TF with significant issues and returned it.


I had always thought that the Morihei TFs were without issues. Hope you managed to sort it out.
The take home point for me is that _*caveat emptor*_ applies, perhaps even more so with handmade items (I read on another thread someone receiving a bent Watanabe nakiri).
I may have got lucky with mine. All said and done, TF is something special. I thought I could close the door on a Denka by getting a 240 Maboroshi. Looks like it didn’t happen. So, I can’t say categorically at this stage, that I don’t want a Denka.


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## nyc (Dec 19, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Morihei branded resold TF's are relatively low grade knives, not speacial editions....why are you suprised by this?
> 
> 
> 
> Hope ya'll have a sense of humour about this


... for sure. I mean it’s completely laughable the amount of money spent on a kitchen tool ... don’t get me started on acquisitions that are only meant to be lovingly gazed upon


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## lemeneid (Dec 19, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Wait, so if I order directly from TF, I can just request a perfect handle and even grind and it'll be fine? Also what does eased spine and choil mean?


There is no knife out there with a even grind, but the chances of getting one by ordering direct are much higher if you do ask them for pics. Only way to get perfect grind and handle would be to personally visit and get one there.


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 19, 2019)

I am glad I ordered my Mab direct, it’s shipped EMS, not sure how long it’s take.

I asked for a 210 with Kato WH profile lol, they showed me a bunch of selections with multiple pictures each.

I was able to pick a good grind visually with spec close to WH, still 18g shy but much closer to WH profile than Wat & my Toyama 210.

Specs:
TF M.: 214/46mm; 179g/6.3Oz -shipped
Kato WH: 213/46: 197g/6.9 Oz -reference

Toyama: 214/51; 163g/5.8 Oz -own
Watanabe: 212/50; 172/6.1 Oz -reference

Cant wait!


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## CiderBear (Dec 19, 2019)

I think it makes no sense to buy a TF and expect a Kato


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## lemeneid (Dec 19, 2019)

Why would you want a Kato-like TF? All TFs cut so much better than Katos you're not doing any service to TF.

And its so short, you will never feel the height and weight of a workhorse. Also, if I recall, Kato WH are mostly taller than 50mm too.


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## Oui Chef (Dec 19, 2019)

Imagine being Teruyasu Fujiwara and getting asked to make a Kato


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## Foltest (Dec 19, 2019)

I would say, calling this an overgrind is major euphemism


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 19, 2019)

I agree that what I asked doesn’t seem to make sense, I have my reasons, but that’s not the point.

My point was to show that TF team is very accommodating for direct orders, which includes toleration to dumb requests etc., its a good choice going direct.


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## ian (Dec 19, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Wait, so if I order directly from TF, I can just request a perfect handle and even grind and it'll be fine? Also what does eased spine and choil mean?





Foltest said:


> I would say, calling this an overgrind is major euphemism



Shigefusa has clouds. TF has waves.


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## Matus (Dec 19, 2019)

ian said:


> Shigefusa has clouds. TF has waves.



Shigefusa has clouds, TF has Tsunami


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## lemeneid (Dec 19, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> I agree that what I asked doesn’t seem to make sense, I have my reasons, but that’s not the point.
> 
> My point was to show that TF team is very accommodating for direct orders, which includes toleration to dumb requests etc., its a good choice going direct.


I can ask Gaku to dress up in a Chun Li costume for Christmas, but should I?


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 19, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Why would you want a Kato-like TF? All TFs cut so much better than Katos you're not doing any service to TF.
> 
> And its so short, you will never feel the height and weight of a workhorse. Also, if I recall, Kato WH are mostly taller than 50mm too.


And don't forget the distal taper of which the TF has very little. Kato 240WH's are about 52/53 tall and the 210 WH is about 48/49. For me they are totally different animals.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 19, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Morihei branded resold TF's are relatively low grade knives, not speacial editions....why are you suprised by this


Not true IMO. The HT and core steel is the same as the Mab line. Based on the 2 examples I've held, many of the F&F issues that plague a lot of TF western knives are addressed. Plus the Jnat finish evens out a lot if not all of the grind irregularities of regular TF's, which are finished on a wheel. No microchipping either.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 19, 2019)

Foltest said:


> I would say, calling this an overgrind is major euphemism


Hiroshige would be honored to own such a knife.


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## Garm (Dec 19, 2019)

Wow.. This is starting to move beyond ridiculous.
I just hope that in a couple of years the craftsmen at TF's factory can actually still remember how to make a TF knife that looks and cuts like a TF knife, in line with how TF deemed through long training and experience what his designs for a TF knife should be, without curling up in a ball of anxiety if the digital calipers don't show the "correct" thickness 8mm above the edge measured three centimetres from the heel.


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## lemeneid (Dec 19, 2019)

Garm said:


> Wow.. This is starting to move beyond ridiculous.
> I just hope that in a couple of years the craftsmen at TF's factory can actually still remember how to make a TF knife that looks and cuts like a TF knife, in line with how TF deemed through long training and experience what his designs for a TF knife should be, without curling up in a ball of anxiety if the digital calipers don't show the "correct" thickness 8mm above the edge measured three centimetres from the heel.


Agreed, just buy the damn knife and stop whining like a little girl.

Every TF I bought was a great cutter and I only hand selected my 240 Denka gyuto. My 150 Denka petty and 240 Mab I bought in good faith the knives would perform well, and they did deliver. Each of them had their own bit of wabi sabi, but none of them had any problem exceeding my expectations when it came to cutting performance.


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## J.C (Dec 19, 2019)

honestly at first i am a bit worried to buy a TF knife after i heard all the news about the bad f&f and bad grind. but then, you never know until you give it a go right?
So i did give it a chance and voila! The knife came in this morning,
Measure at 213x53x2,6
Weight 218gr

very good balance, good shape, haven’t notice any overgrind so far. It might have couple of lowspot, but i will thin this knife later so no problem.
Handle has a bit of cosmetic problem but very comfortable, spine and choil eased and doesn’t feel sharp at all.
I agreed with @lemeneid that people need to buy with confidence.
Here’s a comparison with my toyama

TFTFTFTFTFTFTFTF


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## lemeneid (Dec 19, 2019)

J.C said:


> honestly at first i am a bit worried to buy a TF knife after i heard all the news about the bad f&f and bad grind. but then, you never know until you give it a go right?
> So i did give it a chance and voila! The knife came in this morning,
> Measure at 213x53x2,6
> Weight 218gr
> ...


There you go! Another satisfied TFer

TFTFTFTFTFTFTFTF


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## Xenif (Dec 19, 2019)

My take away from this thread, is that TF people are sticker people. Really love those stickers yah?

Also enough of the TFTFTF , make his face an emoji already


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## ian (Dec 19, 2019)

You TFers do know that every time we see TFTFTF we think “teff teff teff”, right?

Freakin’ squirrel sounds.

edit:  you know I’m going to buy a TF sometime soon..


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## parbaked (Dec 20, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Plus the Jnat finish evens out a lot if not all of the grind irregularities of regular TF's, which are finished on a wheel. No microchipping either.



Not sure that's true. You might be confused because TF site uses the word grinding to describe sharpening.

TF site describes their finishing process as "_fine grinding on an Omura stone" _before handle installation followed by _"final grinding"_ where they show a picture of a blade being hand finished on sharpening stones.
I understand that an Omura stone is a coarse natural stone approximately 300-800 grit.

As such, I assume the blades are finished by hand coarse and then fine natural stones.

Also, when I asked TF and Gaku for initial sharpening of the knives I bought at the TF store I was told the knives had already been hand sharpened on stones.

Link to info on TF site:
https://www.teruyasu.net/whoweare/howto3.html


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 20, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Link to info on TF site:
> https://www.teruyasu.net/whoweare/howto3.html


I'm not convinced the TF knives are given a final stone finish/edge as illustrated in the last pic. If they were the edge would be a lot more stable to microchipping which its not. In all my discussions with Gaku he has never mentioned Jnats as part of their process.


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## lemeneid (Dec 20, 2019)

I chatted with TF personally about this. They do not use jnats at all. The bevels are ground on a wheel, but the final edge is finished on a Chosera 8000.


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## parbaked (Dec 20, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> I chatted with TF personally about this. They do not use jnats at all. The bevels are ground on a wheel, but the final edge is finished on a Chosera 8000.



That makes total sense...I only referenced natural stones because of the information on the site. 
The blades I bought at the TF store had refined edges that did not need an initial sharpening.


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## lemeneid (Dec 20, 2019)

On a side note, I thought nats would be much more effective and cheaper than synths, seeing as they don't dish or wear down as quick, making them more economical. Anyone care to chime in on this?


----------



## labor of love (Dec 20, 2019)

Yeah, but synths usually cut quicker. I’d want the faster cutter if all I was doing was throwing an edge on a knife.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 20, 2019)

I'm willing to spend a little more time to get that toothy refined Jnat edge. Then again I only need to sharpen once a month if that as all my knives are HRC 63+.


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## labor of love (Dec 20, 2019)

Yeah I have no idea how many knives TF sharpens per day, but if it’s in the neighborhood of 30-50 I’d choose speed.


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## labor of love (Dec 20, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> On a side note, I thought nats would be much more effective and cheaper than synths, seeing as they don't dish or wear down as quick, making them more economical. Anyone care to chime in on this?


Never used a chosera 8k. But 400,800 and 3k wear extremely slow.


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## J.C (Dec 20, 2019)

I owned a 400,1000,3000 naniwa chosera for 3 years now. Lose about 0.5mm so far ( i use the stones every forthnight)


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## lemeneid (Dec 20, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Yeah I have no idea how many knives TF sharpens per day, but if it’s in the neighborhood of 30-50 I’d choose speed.


Yup, but his knives sharpen up really quickly when compared to other knives. On even my hardest jnat, all I need are a couple of swipes to get it stupidly sharp and aggressive. If I polished longer, it would certainly be more refined, but for Jnats, what you want for a good cutting edge on food is an aggressive edge, not polished.


----------



## Midsummer (Dec 20, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> On a side note, I thought nats would be much more effective and cheaper than synths, seeing as they don't dish or wear down as quick, making them more economical. Anyone care to chime in on this?



I think TF has had years to consider this question.


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## Xenif (Dec 21, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> On a side note, I thought nats would be much more effective and cheaper than synths, seeing as they don't dish or wear down as quick, making them more economical. Anyone care to chime in on this?


Couple of things: Consistency, whats when your jnat runs out? Two shaptons will be exactly the same but no two jnat will ever be the same. Cladding type: stainless clad usually not the greatest friend of jnats.


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## lemeneid (Dec 21, 2019)

Xenif said:


> Couple of things: Consistency, whats when your jnat runs out? Two shaptons will be exactly the same but no two jnat will ever be the same. Cladding type: stainless clad usually not the greatest friend of jnats.


Thats a fair point, totally forgot about the stainless clad part but its only for finishing the final edge, nothing to do with cladding at all, as I mentioned, everything else is done on sharpening wheels.
As for no two jnats are the same, I would say no customer would ever know stones were switched. Every Jnat behaves differently, but a polisher of his experience would also surely know how to handle his fair share of stones. As it is, his f&f, sizes and weights are all over the place, consistency is probably the last thing most people look out for in a TF even though I assure you they are upping their game on that.


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 21, 2019)

Just got my Mabo. 210 in, everything looks great to me, all eased without me asking except the exposed machi area is rough. I’ll be making a new handle & fix that at the same time, no complains. I like that it feels more hefty than my Toyama: here are pictures vs Toyama & Yoshikane:







[/URL]


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## labor of love (Dec 21, 2019)

Very cool handle on the Yoshi.


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 21, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Very cool handle on the Yoshi.



Thanks!

I like the handles on Miyabi birchwood but not the knife, so I made this handle myself using the same Karelian Birchwood. Plan do do the same for the TF.


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 21, 2019)

I compared the 3 knives on a big carrot about 1.5” diameter. Toyama felt easier going through carrot than TF. I was a bit surprised as the TF Felt much sharper than Toyama on my paper cutting test. Paper test: TF>Youshikane >Toyama.

I decided to do a quantifiable Carrot test, basically Tare the knife on postal scale blade side up, then push carrot down on the blade & see what’s the force needed for the carrot to go through the blade. I was surprised to see all 3 knife went through big carrot at about the same force, all were in the 1600g-1800g range. I wonder if the test design is flawed?


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 21, 2019)

You can see top picture how the TS wa handle is a little thicker and not too long. Comfortable IMO. 

I would think any J knife maker turning out 40 knives a day don't use Jnats. Even on small scale fixed finishing stones or even polishing wheels are used.


----------



## J.C (Dec 21, 2019)

It seems like the emoto(neck) on your TF is longer than normal. I wonder how it feels in hand.


----------



## ian (Dec 21, 2019)

Do they usually gap the machi? Looked flush on TF’s website pics.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Dec 21, 2019)

ian said:


> Do they usually gap the machi? Looked flush on TF’s website pics.


Its not usually that pronounced


----------



## ma_sha1 (Dec 21, 2019)

The neck machi gap is wider than normal, looks like handle didn’t get installed all the way in. I already took it apart working on making a new handle, so it does not bother me but it could be an issue for others. I am pretty happy as the grind is perfect, it’s an asymmetrical convex grind similar to my Anryu but I like TF better as it’s less boring looking. Plus, I got the custom Dragon Kanji for free.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 22, 2019)

Yes noticed the gap on yours. Mine is flush and works well with pinch grip. Looks like it is sealed with wax. As I've said like the handle because it is more robust. Some work gloves wear large some need X large esp. plastic throw all way kind. I was thinking to rehandle this knife, but the handle works for me so no need.


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## labor of love (Dec 22, 2019)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Yes noticed the gap on yours. Mine is flush and works well with pinch grip. Looks like it is sealed with wax. As I've said like the handle because it is more robust. Some work gloves wear large some need X large esp. plastic throw all way kind. I was thinking to rehandle this knife, but the handle works for me so no need.


The handle on my old Mab was nice and large too, it was the nicely finished actually.


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 22, 2019)

The gap is gone. Gentlemen dressed to kill


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## ian (Dec 22, 2019)

Phew. That’s a relief. #imindthegap

looks great!


----------



## CiderBear (Dec 22, 2019)

ma_sha1 said:


> The gap is gone. Gentlemen dressed to kill



Very nice handles


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 1, 2020)

This would be my first time ordering direct from TF. Was going to start a new thread but figured I would post here. Was looking at petties. Don’t have any smaller knives. Lately I’ve been wishing I had one. Instead of a petty I want a 180 gyuto. I was thinking either Watanabe or TF. I think this would be a good opportunity to give TF a shot. I’ve always wanted to. Im not handle picky. Wa or yo is fine. However, the last thing I want is a blade to show up with terrible issues. How exactly do you guys word these emails? If someone could walk me through it slightly, I would appreciate it. I think a denka is out of my price range so I would be going for a Mab. I’m not looking for a beefy 180. However I do want the heel height, an even grind ( obviously ), and one that’s going to be a touch on the thinner side when it comes to behind the edge. Do I just reach out to these guys and let them know exactly that? And am I betting off going for the wa or yo handle?


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 1, 2020)

MAb is a good pick, that’s what I got too. 

Just put your wishes in the note while ordering, they will email you & give you pictures to choose from, also info. on weight/length/height. You can select based on weight & heel height etc. from available stocks. 

You can’t really see how thin behind the edge but you can see the evenness of the grind, that should be a good indicator of the work.

I did had to thin mine but that’s because I requested heavy with low heel height for a WH version. Most of Higher blades tends to be thinner naturally & most of the current MAbs are light/medium weight.


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 1, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> MAb is a good pick, that’s what I got too.
> 
> Just put your wishes in the note while ordering, they will email you & give you pictures to choose from, also info. on weight/length/height. You can select based on weight & heel height etc. from available stocks.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for taking the time to reply


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 1, 2020)

I can’t decide if I should go wa or yo handle


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## Barmoley (Jan 1, 2020)

Depends on the balance you like, in a short knife Yo will be handle heavy, no way around it. Wa for me in a short knife like this.


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 1, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> I can’t decide if I should go wa or yo handle



Many have gone through the tough Yo to Wa transition process, me included.

Just do it! Once you go Wa, you never go back, lol 

p.s.

how come my emoji never shows up?


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 1, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Many have gone through the tough Yo to Wa transition process, me included.
> 
> Just do it!
> Once you go Wa, you never go back, lol
> ...


Oh I hear you man. 98% of my knives are wa handled. For some reason I do like the look of the TF yo handled knives as well which is rare for me. I probably will end up going Wa though.


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## labor of love (Jan 1, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> MAb is a good pick, that’s what I got too.
> 
> Just put your wishes in the note while ordering, they will email you & give you pictures to choose from, also info. on weight/length/height. You can select based on weight & heel height etc. from available stocks.
> 
> ...


This is good to know. I made an inquiry and requested preferences for a blade but didn’t actually purchase a knife about a week ago and haven’t heard back from them. They might be on vacation for the new year though...


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 1, 2020)

labor of love said:


> This is good to know. I made an inquiry and requested preferences for a blade but didn’t actually purchase a knife about a week ago and haven’t heard back from them. They might be on vacation for the new year though...



I’m guessing they are. I think a lot of places take off until around the 6th in Japan. Could be wrong though. I’ll go ahead with the purchase maybe this evening and leave what I want etc in the notes. I thought about trying to contact first myself. This will be a nice way for me to test the steel/process since it’s my first “smaller” knife. All these years never really needed one but lately we’ve been doing more and more off premise catering and I would rather have a smaller blade to use in people’s homes. I think spending more money though, I would kind of want to know my options before I pull the trigger.


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## parbaked (Jan 1, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Depends on the balance you like, in a short knife Yo will be handle heavy, no way around it. Wa for me in a short knife like this.



Wa handles make more sense in a petty knife and short gyuto, but I like my TF Yo with the finger choil.
My 180mm Maboroshi balances just in front of the bolster, which works for me:


181mm x 48mm 
162 grams


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 1, 2020)

In general I prefer Wa for longer knives and Yo for petties. However all my longer 210+ TF gyutos are Yo and i think this works great for the TF with finger notch.


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 1, 2020)

parbaked said:


> Wa handles make more sense in a petty knife and short gyuto, but I like my TF Yo with the finger choil.
> My 180mm Maboroshi balances just in front of the bolster, which works for me:
> View attachment 67817
> 
> ...


That sounds like it could work for me. Usually i’m not super picky with handles. I generally prefer wa but I have nothing against yo handles at all.


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## Barmoley (Jan 1, 2020)

parbaked said:


> Wa handles make more sense in a petty knife and short gyuto, but I like my TF Yo with the finger choil.
> My 180mm Maboroshi balances just in front of the bolster, which works for me:
> View attachment 67817
> 
> ...



That's actually not bad, helps that it is 48mm tall, still would feel handle heavy the way I pinch, but could be altered to feel neutral. The point still stands WA with ho wood will in general have balance more forward in otherwise identical knives.


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 1, 2020)

For the guys that did order direct did you guys do the economy shipping or pay extra for the standard shipping.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 1, 2020)

I think they only use EMS. Takes about 5 days to US


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 1, 2020)

Yeah, EMS only, no other options. 
Also, non EMS shipping from Japan tends to get caught by custom & run the risk of being slapped import tax so I’ve heard.


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## toddnmd (Jan 1, 2020)

IMO, finger notch yo is the way to go. 
Labor, the New Year’s holiday is indeed extended for a good number of businesses and restaurants, so that might explain the delay.


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## MarkC (Jan 2, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> This would be my first time ordering direct from TF. Was going to start a new thread but figured I would post here. Was looking at petties. Don’t have any smaller knives. Lately I’ve been wishing I had one. Instead of a petty I want a 180 gyuto. I was thinking either Watanabe or TF. I think this would be a good opportunity to give TF a shot. I’ve always wanted to. Im not handle picky. Wa or yo is fine. However, the last thing I want is a blade to show up with terrible issues. How exactly do you guys word these emails? If someone could walk me through it slightly, I would appreciate it. I think a denka is out of my price range so I would be going for a Mab. I’m not looking for a beefy 180. However I do want the heel height, an even grind ( obviously ), and one that’s going to be a touch on the thinner side when it comes to behind the edge. Do I just reach out to these guys and let them know exactly that? And am I betting off going for the wa or yo handle?


Thank you for creating these questions. Would it be possible for you to come back as you go through the process and update the forum? I am in the exact same boat and am curious if you get any response and what your final knife actually looks like in relationship to what you requested.


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 2, 2020)

MarkC said:


> Thank you for creating these questions. Would it be possible for you to come back as you go through the process and update the forum? I am in the exact same boat and am curious if you get any response and what your final knife actually looks like in relationship to what you requested.


I would be happy to if everyone is cool with that. I’m a little nervous myself haha. First time ordering direct period, let alone with TF. Maybe I should of emailed first. We’ll see. I did not end up seeing a note section while ordering. I filled out my shipping info etc and then paid with paypal. There are 4 “steps” it seems in his ordering process. The third one being confirm. It seems like paypal was the second step. So I figured the third step would have the note section or whatever and then some kind of confirm button. Unfortunately after I paid with paypal it seemed like it went past step 3 and right to step 4 which is complete lol. So i’m a little nervous I was not able to leave a note with the order. However I filled out the inquiry section as well as emailed the email I found through my paypal invoice. Luckily, its a 180 mab gyuto and not a larger purchase. For most chefs, including myself, almost $300 for a 180 gyuto I feel is still a good amount of money. So i’m hoping when they come back from the holidays they will see my message with my preferences and exactly what I’m looking for before they just ship a knife. Fingers crossed! I’ve been wanting to try a TF for too long now. I figured a smaller knife would be a nice chance to test the process. I’ll keep you updated if you would like.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 2, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> I would be happy to if everyone is cool with that. I’m a little nervous myself haha. First time ordering direct period, let alone with TF. Maybe I should of emailed first. We’ll see. I did not end up seeing a note section while ordering. I filled out my shipping info etc and then paid with paypal. There are 4 “steps” it seems in his ordering process. The third one being confirm. It seems like paypal was the second step. So I figured the third step would have the note section or whatever and then some kind of confirm button. Unfortunately after I paid with paypal it seemed like it went past step 3 and right to step 4 which is complete lol. So i’m a little nervous I was not able to leave a note with the order. However I filled out the inquiry section as well as emailed the email I found through my paypal invoice. Luckily, its a 180 mab gyuto and not a larger purchase. For most chefs, including myself, almost $300 for a 180 gyuto I feel is still a good amount of money. So i’m hoping when they come back from the holidays they will see my message with my preferences and exactly what I’m looking for before they just ship a knife. Fingers crossed! I’ve been wanting to try a TF for too long now. I figured a smaller knife would be a nice chance to test the process. I’ll keep you updated if you would like.


Did you choose Wa or Yo in the end? My first excursion into ordering TF direct (in fact my first ever Jknife's) were two 210 Wa Nashiji gyuto's. One with Machi and 46mm tall and the other a more laserish 50mm example without machi. One thing I regretted was not ordering them with upgraded octagonal Ho/horn handles. The basic freebie handles are trash.


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 2, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Did you choose Wa or Yo in the end? My first excursion into ordering TF direct (in fact my first ever Jknife's) were two 210 Wa Nashiji gyuto's. One with Machi and 46mm tall and the other a more laserish 50mm example without machi. One thing I regretted was not ordering them with upgraded octagonal Ho/horn handles. The basic freebie handles are trash.


I ended up going yo handled. All of my knives except one are wa handled. I kind of dig the yo handled TF look and I won’t mind the weight. I think if everything goes smooth and I like the knife I would grab a 240 with probably a wa handle. I saw the option for the standard Wa handle and then I think that ebony handle which seems beautiful but pricey. I think if there ever is a next time i’ll sit down on the computer and order rather than my cell phone. I know sometimes certain websites can vary when on a phone and I might of missed something. Does he contact you regardless about the name engraving service before he ships? I do not want my name engraved on the blade. I’m sure he will see my email before the knife ships. God forbid he doesn’t I figured if they contact me for the name engraving I can ask them if they saw it at that point.


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## J.C (Jan 2, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> I think if everything goes smooth and I like the knife I would grab a 240



there’s a 240 readily available at one of the oz vendor. I have seen the product and seems like it is a decent one. I was shown a comparison between a 240 and 210 and i choose the 210 because it fits like a glove in my hand, the weight, balance, agile all are perfect. 
I was getting excited about the TF amazing steel, i took the leap of faith to try get the denka. Contacted Gaku, he was nice enough to explain everything ( he typically reply within 1-3days) and he sent me the link including photos of the denkas that available at that moment. Seeing the shape and all, it doesn’t come close to my preference so i choose to hold my purchase until the next batch is available.


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## zeaderan (Jan 2, 2020)

"I’m sure he will see my email before the knife ships."

I sent an inquiry right after I did an online order too. It took Gaku about 4 days but he did respond before shipping anything. Each correspondence has taken about 48hrs afterwards but all were very accommodating. I was sent pics of 3 samples knives closest to what I was hoping for to chose from. None were quite the height I was looking for and Gaku even offered that if I could wait until March he could queue up one made closer to the 55mm heel I was asking for


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 3, 2020)

zeaderan said:


> "I’m sure he will see my email before the knife ships."
> 
> I sent an inquiry right after I did an online order too. It took Gaku about 4 days but he did respond before shipping anything. Each correspondence has taken about 48hrs afterwards but all were very accommodating. I was sent pics of 3 samples knives closest to what I was hoping for to chose from. None were quite the height I was looking for and Gaku even offered that if I could wait until March he could queue up one made closer to the 55mm heel I was asking for


Thank you for the reply. I’m sure they are on vacation for the new year until Monday so I’m expecting delays which is fine. This makes me feel better about the situation.


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## Horsemover (Mar 11, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> Thank you for the reply. I’m sure they are on vacation for the new year until Monday so I’m expecting delays which is fine. This makes me feel better about the situation.



Any update on this purchase? I am looking to order a Nakiri and curious how yours went?


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## panda (Mar 23, 2020)

i wonder if my custom order will be delayed..


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 23, 2020)

panda said:


> i wonder if my custom order will be delayed..


Factory is working at normal capacity.


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## BillHanna (May 24, 2020)

Robert Lavacca said:


> This would be my first time ordering direct from TF. Was going to start a new thread but figured I would post here. Was looking at petties. Don’t have any smaller knives. Lately I’ve been wishing I had one. Instead of a petty I want a 180 gyuto. I was thinking either Watanabe or TF. I think this would be a good opportunity to give TF a shot. I’ve always wanted to. Im not handle picky. Wa or yo is fine. However, the last thing I want is a blade to show up with terrible issues. How exactly do you guys word these emails? If someone could walk me through it slightly, I would appreciate it. I think a denka is out of my price range so I would be going for a Mab. I’m not looking for a beefy 180. However I do want the heel height, an even grind ( obviously ), and one that’s going to be a touch on the thinner side when it comes to behind the edge. Do I just reach out to these guys and let them know exactly that? And am I betting off going for the wa or yo handle?


How’d it go?


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