# chinese cleaver questions



## r0bz (Nov 20, 2021)

do you sharpen a chainese cleaver the same way you sharpen a regular chefs knife ? the japaneese way ?
please send videos of how to sharpen Chinese vegetable cleavers
like in the vid

i am asking as i have never owned a Chinese vegetable cleaver
like this shiba


also how do you store your Chinese cleavers ?


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## cotedupy (Nov 20, 2021)

Yes, I do. Kind of...

Note that the sharpening angle tends to be a bit higher than Japanese knives, though I like to take it down to about 15 - 18 degs. Rather neatly I find that my preferred edge angle is usually about the width of my thumb at the spine, as here: Chan Chi Kee vs Leung Tim (a two-part comparison)

Also - you don't need to go any higher than about 1k, and because the profile is almost completely flat it's a bit difficult to do full edge length deburring passes, which is how I normally deburr. For larger or heavier versions it can be easier to control the angle by holding it with both hands on the blade, i.e. not touching the handle.

But yeah - it's like sharpening a big nakiri basically.


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## r0bz (Nov 20, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Yes, I do. Kind of...
> 
> Note that the sharpening angle tends to be a bit higher than Japanese knives, though I tend t take it down to about 15 - 18 degs. Rather neatly I find that my preferred edge angle is usually about the width of my thumb at the spine, as here: Chan Chi Kee vs Leung Tim (a two-part comparison)
> 
> ...


higher than 1k stone ? its a 55-58 rockwell cleaver the shiba
i made the link with the time he talks about the hrc


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## cotedupy (Nov 20, 2021)

r0bz said:


> higher than 1k stone ? its a 55-58 rockwell cleaver the shiba
> i made the link with the time he talks about the hrc




Yeah, you shouldn't need to go any higher than 1k. I tend to sharpen mine on a King 800.


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## r0bz (Nov 20, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Yeah, you shouldn't need to go any higher than 1k. I tend to sharpen mine on a King 800.


how do you store your cleaver ?
i currently sharpen on the sun tiger 800


Amazon.com


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## cotedupy (Nov 20, 2021)

r0bz said:


> how do you store your cleaver ?
> i currently sharpen on the sun tiger 800
> 
> 
> Amazon.com



I just have them in a drawer tbh, though you can get some quite cool blocks specially designed for cleavers.

Sun Tiger 800 I think is the same stone as the King Deluxe 800 that I use, so that should be perfect .


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## r0bz (Nov 20, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I just have them in a drawer tbh, though you can get some quite cool blocks specially designed for cleavers.
> 
> Sun Tiger 800 I think is the same stone as the King Deluxe 800 that I use, so that should be perfect .


if you store in drawer do you put a gurd on the blade tho ?
your cck looks beautiful what hrc is it ?


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## tostadas (Nov 20, 2021)

r0bz said:


> if you store in drawer do you put a gurd on the blade tho ?
> your cck looks beautiful what hrc is it ?


This is how I store mine in the drawer. "custom" sayas


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## cotedupy (Nov 20, 2021)

r0bz said:


> if you store in drawer do you put a gurd on the blade tho ?
> your cck looks beautiful what hrc is it ?



I don't really use blade guards apart from when transporting or sending knives, no. But if I did I would do something like @tostadas above. Those kinda felt lined ones that you can buy are very good at rusting a blade if used for long term storage, whereas a homemade cardboard one would be better as it's more 'breathable'.

Dunno what the HRC of the CCK is, it'll be around the same as the Shibazi though. If you ever try to thin a caidao they're actually a bit harder than you might expect, ime. I guess around 58.


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## r0bz (Nov 20, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I don't really use blade guards apart from when transporting or sending knives, no. But if I did I would do something like @tostadas above. Those kinda felt lined ones that you can buy are very good at rusting a blade if used for long term storage, whereas a homemade cardboard one would be better as it's more 'breathable'.
> 
> Dunno what the HRC of the CCK is, it'll be around the same as the Shibazi though. If you ever try to thin a caidao they're actually a bit harder than you might expect, ime. I guess around 58.


DO YOU THINK I CAN USE THE WUSTHOF HONING ROD ON THE SHIBAZI ?





Wüsthof Honing Steel 23cm 4460/23 3049700223 Sharpening Steel - Teddingtons Australia


Buy Wüsthof Honing Steel 23cm. Order online. Fast delivery Australia-wide. Easily maintain the edge of your kitchen knives with this honing steel. Re-aligns the microscopic teeth on the blade edge without grinding material away. Chromium plated high carbon steel hardened to 65° Rockwell...




www.teddingtons.com.au


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## cotedupy (Nov 20, 2021)

r0bz said:


> DO YOU THINK I CAN USE THE WUSTHOF HONING ROD ON THE SHIBAZI ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It'd be very difficult indeed because of the size/weight/shape of caidao.


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## r0bz (Nov 20, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> It'd be very difficult indeed because of the size/weight/shape of caidao.


what do you do between sharpening sessions in order to keep your cai dao sharp ?


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## SirCutAlot (Nov 20, 2021)

r0bz said:


> what do you do between sharpening sessions in order to keep your cai dao sharp ?


Just don`t use it, so it will stay sharp


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## r0bz (Nov 20, 2021)

SirCutAlot said:


> Just don`t use it, so it will stay sharp


XD i mean do you hone it on a rod or strop on leather ??? or something else


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 20, 2021)

At that hardness you could almost just strop it on your cutting board but I'd use some cardboard.


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## cotedupy (Nov 20, 2021)

I'd just touch it up on a stone if it's getting blunt, and then strop on cardboard as @HumbleHomeCook said ^. I always strop any knife on cardboard anyway tbh.

It's probably not something to overthink. They're not massively expensive, and you could sharpen one on a paving slab and get it very useably sharp. 

(I know people joke about paving slabs, but frankly you can sharpen a knife on just about any stone you ever find, paving slabs are just quite coarse usually. Though I've made some very good whetstones out of slate paving, and there are villages in the UK where paving is made out of Charnley, Idwal or Melynllyn stone. So don't write it off eh!)


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## tostadas (Nov 20, 2021)

r0bz said:


> what do you do between sharpening sessions in order to keep your cai dao sharp ?


I do a couple quick swipes on my 1k stone and it's good to go.


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## r0bz (Nov 21, 2021)

tostadas said:


> I do a couple quick swipes on my 1k stone and it's good to go.


you mean stropping on the stone ?


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## r0bz (Nov 21, 2021)

also at what angle would you sharpen a cai dao ?


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## tostadas (Nov 21, 2021)

r0bz said:


> you mean stropping on the stone ?


Yes, you could call it that.



r0bz said:


> also at what angle would you sharpen a cai dao ?


I put a pretty aggressive angle on mine, probably 10-12deg if I were to guess. It doesn't last too long on the steel, but it's so easy to touch up.


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## r0bz (Nov 21, 2021)

do you know if this shiba has a symetrical grind ?
or a single bevel grind ?


https://sharpyknives.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Snimek-obrazovky-2021-05-17-202028.png.webp


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## tostadas (Nov 21, 2021)

r0bz said:


> do you know if this shiba has a symetrical grind ?
> or a single bevel grind ?
> 
> 
> https://sharpyknives.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Snimek-obrazovky-2021-05-17-202028.png.webp



It's a symetrical grind. I had a similar one, the F208-2





Cleaver Thinning Project


I picked up a Shibazi F208-2 stainless cleaver to try out the knife, and also test out a few things for thinning. Out of the box, the knife was actually not too bad. 333g on the scale. The stickers were a little annoying. A tip to remove the goop, rub a bit of oil on it and let the oil sit...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## r0bz (Nov 21, 2021)

tostadas said:


> It's a symetrical grind. I had a similar one, the F208-2
> 
> 
> 
> ...


he reccomends to reprofile it to an asymetrical grind what's your opinions on it ?


did you like the F208-2 ?


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## spaceconvoy (Nov 21, 2021)

I have a CCK stainless I sharpen the same as my other knives, Shapton 2K followed by an Aizu. It holds the edge just fine, certainly better than my Misono moly.

I keep it on my magnetic rack, hanging over the side so it takes up less space. I use it so often I wouldn't consider keeping it in a drawer.


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## tostadas (Nov 21, 2021)

r0bz said:


> he reccomends to reprofile it to an asymetrical grind what's your opinions on it ?
> 
> 
> did you like the F208-2 ?



There's no need to reprofile it. I don't think there's a lot to be gained with a cleaver by doing an asymmetrical grind. It probably won't hurt, but you need to ask yourself if it's worth your time.

Regarding the F208-2, it's a decent cleaver for the price. However, I think it's worth it to pay a little extra for the CCK 1302 or 1911. The F208-2 is about 25% heavier, and out of the box it's pretty uncomfortable. The edges along the spine and choil are all really square and sharp, so you definitely need to smooth them out. Also, the handle is way too fat for me to get a good grip around it. Performance is OK, but it's also kinda thick behind the edge. It's good if you want a cleaver you can really beat on without worrying about stuff, but it will not feel as nimble as one of the lightweight CCKs. For about $30 on aliexpress, you get a lot of knife with the Shibazi, as long as you can deal with some of the things I mentioned.


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## KingShapton (Nov 21, 2021)

r0bz said:


> he reccomends to reprofile it to an asymetrical grind what's your opinions on it ?


Counter question - do you already have experience with asymmetrical grinds? Both, sharpening and cutting food?


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## r0bz (Nov 21, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> Counter question - do you already have experience with asymmetrical grinds? Both, sharpening and cutting food?


i dont have experience with asymmetrical grinds ? i only know about them theoretically


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## r0bz (Nov 21, 2021)

tostadas said:


> kinda thick behind the edge


how do you deal with that ?
from what he measures here the shibazi is 2mm thicker


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## tostadas (Nov 21, 2021)

r0bz said:


> how do you deal with that ?
> from what he measures here the shibazi is 2mm thicker



I meant behind the edge for the first cm or 2, not the spine (well yes, the spine too). You can thin the knife if you want, but the soft stainless on the shibazi is not the most fun thing to grind away at.


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## r0bz (Nov 21, 2021)

tostadas said:


> I meant behind the edge for the first cm or 2, not the spine (well yes, the spine too). You can thin the knife if you want, but the soft stainless on the shibazi is not the most fun thing to grind away at.


is the shibazi thick behind the edge like a chunky wusthof tho ?




this cck 1103 is 2.5 cm at the heel | and the shibazi f208-1 is 2.3 cm| cck KF1912 thickness at hell 2.0 cm at middle and the front its 1.5 cm
the cck 1103 weighs 394 gr | and the shibazi f208-1 weighs 350 gr according to them | the cck KF1912 weighs 270 gr

the shibazi f208-1 has no distal taper tho


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## r0bz (Nov 21, 2021)

r0bz said:


> is the shibazi thick behind the edge like a chunky wusthof tho ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



is the shibazi thick behind the edge like a chunky wusthof tho because those chunky wusthofs perform bad at root vegetables ?
how does the shibazi F208-1 perform on root vegetables like a carrot do you know ?


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## KingShapton (Nov 21, 2021)

r0bz said:


> i dont have experience with asymmetrical grinds ? i only know about them theoretically


I suspected something like that, then such a cleaver (at this price) would be a good opportunity to make your own first practical experiences and impressions with an asymmetrical grind.

Even better, order this cleaver twice, sharpen one conventionally and reprofile the other to an asymmetrical grind - this way you can best experience the differences for yourself and find out which grind suits you better.



r0bz said:


> DO YOU THINK I CAN USE THE WUSTHOF HONING ROD ON THE SHIBAZI ?


With such a honing rod you can easily keep a cleaver with 55-58 rockwell sharp. But like most of the people here, I also find that it is not necessary, a quick strop on an stone, on leather or cardboard as suggested or a quick touchup is completely sufficient and is done in a very short time.

In addition, the handling of a honing rod has to be learned, if you do not know what you are doing or the necessary motor skills and the necessary sensitivity are missing then keeping sharp with a honing rod does not work.


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## KingShapton (Nov 21, 2021)

@r0bz 
One more small, not meant to be angry note from me ...

Most of your questions are very theoretical, that's basically ok and the members here do their best to help with such questions.

But from a certain point it just makes more sense to try things out and experience things for yourself. For example, it is very difficult to compare the cut of a Wüsthoff with that of a cleaver, regardless of how chunky or thick the knives behind the edge are - the cutting technique with a cleaver is completely different and due to its size (if used correctly) it cuts completely differently also through hard root vegetables.

By the way, on the topic of sharpening and storing cleavers, you can use the search function to find some fantastic, detailed threads where such questions are answered broadly and in detail.


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## r0bz (Nov 21, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> @r0bz
> One more small, not meant to be angry note from me ...
> 
> Most of your questions are very theoretical, that's basically ok and the members here do their best to help with such questions.
> ...


thank you for the info if you can send a good video on the cutting technique with a cleaver it will be great!!


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## r0bz (Nov 21, 2021)

i am used to sharpen knifes like in the video using the dominant hand holding the knife with the dominant hand and flipping it insted of sharpening while holding the knife at the right hand and holding the knife with the left hand


in this video vincent says you should switch hands in order to sharpen a vegetable cleaver


can i sharpen the cleaver the way im used to with flipping the knife insted of sharpening holding the knife at the right hand and holding the knife with the left hand?


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## Tristan (Nov 21, 2021)

You can sharpen any way you want on any stone you have.
I don’t change hands. 
stop at 1k, occasionally do a full progression just for kicks. Prefer chosera pro.

The price of a cck allows you to buy one and see if it meets your preferences with use.
You don’t HAVE to alter anything like symmetry out of the box, just touch up the edge on a relatively cheap 800/1000. There are a bajillion threads on the best 1000 synth stone too if you are curious that way.

Youtube has loads of cleaver videos, by Chinese chefs. No language appreciation necessary to see the methods employed.
Iirc Kamon just posted a cleaver carrot cutting vid on his Instagram a short while back.


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## daniel_il (Nov 21, 2021)

r0bz said:


> is the shibazi thick behind the edge like a chunky wusthof tho because those chunky wusthofs perform bad at root vegetables ?
> how does the shibazi F208-1 perform on root vegetables like a carrot do you know ?



CCK is a thin laser, very delicate knife and poor food release. the carbon one is very fun to sharpen.

i much prefer the robust shibazi. good convex, the extra weight help force through ingredients and food release is decent. i think it cut little better than wusthof, it doesn't have the huge bevel and the extra weight is important in this kind of blades.

also, shibazi cost less and have better f&f.


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## Jville (Nov 21, 2021)

r0bz said:


> is the shibazi thick behind the edge like a chunky wusthof tho ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The spine is completely different than behind the edge, so those measurements don’t necessarily mean much. The cck is thin behind the edge and just thin overall and light and nimble for a cleaver. They are thinner than other inexpensive cleavers that I’ve come across. If you are doing a lot of root veg, I think cck would be a good choice. They will shine on root veg. Their weakness is food release, but you really don’t need that aspect in root veg imho.


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## Oshidashi (Nov 21, 2021)

I just happened to use my CCK 1303 thin carbon vegetable cleaver for hours today on a bunch of ginger, garlic and a ton of beef, which it can slice paper thin with ease. I really enjoy using this knife. I am not a sharpening pro, but 30 seconds on a leather strop loaded with 1 micron diamond spray brought it back to hair shaving sharpness, to which my left forearm can attest. On occasion I'll bring the edge back on a Chosera 800, and perhaps a few finishing swipes on a 3000, sharpening just as I would any other relatively flat edged blade. It's not rocket science. I store it on a magnet strip.


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## r0bz (Nov 22, 2021)

may i ask how do i find the 20 degree angle with the chinease cleaver ?
when sharpening a regular western chefs knife i use the 3 penny method in order to find the angle


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## Jovidah (Nov 22, 2021)

You can fold some guides out of pieces of paper to give you a rough indication. If you're 2 degrees off it's really not a big deal.


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## Jville (Nov 22, 2021)

r0bz said:


> may i ask how do i find the 20 degree angle with the chinease cleaver ?
> when sharpening a regular western chefs knife i use the 3 penny method in order to find the angle


They actually sell a set of guides with all the different angles. I don’t usually use them while sharpening, but they can be great for just dialing in your angle to get started. To me it’s kind of tricky to tell the difference between say 11 and 13 degrees. It’s not that they are necessary, but they are cheap and a nice tool to have IMO. I had already learned how to sharpen, when I got them. I had been maybe 6 years into the hobby. I got them to just help me with a quick reference.


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## r0bz (Nov 22, 2021)

Jville said:


> They actually sell a set of guides with all the different angles. I don’t usually use them while sharpening, but they can be great for just dialing in your angle to get started. To me it’s kind of tricky to tell the difference between say 11 and 13 degrees. It’s not that they are necessary, but they are cheap and a nice tool to have IMO. I had already learned how to sharpen, when I got them. I had been maybe 6 years into the hobby. I got them to just help me with a quick reference.


do you guides work for cleavers tho ?


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## Jovidah (Nov 22, 2021)

Arguably even better since the profile is flat. Angle guides are actually complete crap for blades with a curved profile like gyutos.


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## tostadas (Nov 22, 2021)

r0bz said:


> may i ask how do i find the 20 degree angle with the chinease cleaver ?
> when sharpening a regular western chefs knife i use the 3 penny method in order to find the angle



You can measure the height of the cleaver, then calculate how high you need to lift it for a certain angle. Quick trig gives you these approx numbers you can use as a rough estimate:

1/3 spine height: 20deg
1/4 spine height: 15deg
1/5 spine height: 12deg
1/6 spine height: 10deg


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## Jville (Nov 22, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> Arguably even better since the profile is flat. Angle guides are actually complete crap for blades with a curved profile like gyutos.


Yeah curve can make it trickier to use them, but you can still get a starting angle from them.


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## r0bz (Nov 22, 2021)

tostadas said:


> You can measure the height of the cleaver, then calculate how high you need to lift it for a certain angle. Quick trig gives you these approx numbers you can use as a rough estimate:
> 
> 1/3 spine height: 20deg
> 1/4 spine height: 15deg
> ...



1/3 spine height: 20deg you mean the height of the blade ?


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## tostadas (Nov 22, 2021)

r0bz said:


> 1/3 spine height: 20deg you mean the height of the blade ?


Yes, height from edge to spine


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## Oshidashi (Nov 22, 2021)

Take your three pennies, find 22 more under the sofa cushion, trade them for a quarter, place the quarter upright at the spine, and that'll be around 20 degrees. Or simply lift the spine till the sharp edge first starts to bite the stone and start sharpening.


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## r0bz (Nov 23, 2021)

Oshidashi said:


> lift the spine till the sharp edge first starts to bite the stone


i heard mulitple guys say it in youtube i tried it and didnt know what am i searching for exactly if you can expand on that as it has been unclear subject for me for a long time hahahahah


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## da_mich* (Nov 23, 2021)

r0bz said:


> how do you store your cleaver ?
> i currently sharpen on the sun tiger 800
> 
> 
> Amazon.com



I store it simple on a magnetic knife holder. The sharpening of a cleaver is very easy. In my opinion a cleaver or nakiri knife is the best knife for practice sharpening because you have a very wide blade. Whitch a wide blade you can see the sharpening angle very easy.
In my case the sharpening angle is about 10 degrees according to the manufacturer. I don´t know the sharpening angle of the Shi Ba Zi Zuo Cleaver but it will be higher because it´s stainless steel with less quality. I think it´s ~20 degree.

I use this stones for *my *cleaver:
Sharpening: Cerax 1000 or Chosera 800
Pre Finish: Chosera 3000
Finish: Japanes Natural Stone Awasedo Mizukihara

For the Shi Ba Zi Zuo is a single ~1000 grit stone maybe enough. You have the King 800 -> it´s perfect


This is a cleaver restoration/sharpening video from me:


My knife storage(simple and cheap):


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## r0bz (Nov 23, 2021)

da_mich* said:


> I store it simple on a magnetic knife holder. The sharpening of a cleaver is very easy. In my opinion a cleaver or nakiri knife is the best knife for practice sharpening because you have a very wide blade. Whitch a wide blade you can see the sharpening angle very easy.
> In my case the sharpening angle is about 10 degrees according to the manufacturer. I don´t know the sharpening angle of the Shi Ba Zi Zuo Cleaver but it will be higher because it´s stainless steel with less quality. I think it´s ~20 degree.
> 
> I use this stones for *my *cleaver:
> ...



very nice 
what are you doing with the towl at the end ?


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## da_mich* (Nov 23, 2021)

Only polishing with Mizukihara mud. It is not necessary


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## r0bz (Nov 23, 2021)

btw what is do you think about using a honing rod with edge trailing strokes insted of edge leading like in the video ?


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## da_mich* (Nov 23, 2021)

I always use it against the edge. The classic way.


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## stringer (Nov 23, 2021)

r0bz said:


> btw what is do you think about using a honing rod with edge trailing strokes insted of edge leading like in the video ?



If it's a non-abrasive steel then it wouldn't be too much different one way or the other. If you are using a diamond or a ceramic steel then you are much more likely to raise a burr. The knife will feel sharp but the edge won't be durable and five minutes later you'll be doing it again.


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## r0bz (Nov 23, 2021)

stringer said:


> If it's a non-abrasive steel then it wouldn't be too much different one way or the other. If you are using a diamond or a ceramic steel then you are much more likely to raise a burr. The knife will feel sharp but the edge won't be durable and five minutes later you'll be doing it again.


with this wusthof steel rod
Wüsthof Honing Steel 23cm 4460/23 Sharpening Steel - Teddingtons Australia
its okay to do edge trailing storkes like in the vid ?


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## r0bz (Nov 23, 2021)

da_mich* said:


> I always use it against the edge. The classic way.


towards your hand ?

its quite intimidating


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## spaceconvoy (Nov 23, 2021)

Oshidashi said:


> lift the spine till the sharp edge first starts to bite the stone
> 
> 
> r0bz said:
> ...


I wouldn't recommend using a honing rod until you can confidently feel the edge on a stone


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## r0bz (Nov 23, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I wouldn't recommend using a honing rod until you can confidently feel the edge on a stone


i use honing rod between sharpening in order to keep the knife in shape ...
i am using it like in his video
i was wondering if its okay as its edge trailing and not leading ....


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## stringer (Nov 23, 2021)

r0bz said:


> i use honing rod between sharpening in order to keep the knife in shape ...
> i am using it like in his video
> 
> i was woudering if its okay as its edge trailing and not leading ....




It would work fine if your technique is good. Edge leading will generally cause less problems.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 23, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I wouldn't recommend using a honing rod until you can confidently feel the edge on a stone



Agreed. If you're using a rod and maintaining a _proper _edge, then you should be able to transfer that over to a stone. Both methods require you to hold a certain and consistent angle.

When working with a stone, don't feel like you have to go fast, especially if you're using classic back and forth strokes. mark your edge with Sharpie and run it down the stone. Observe the marker and your edge. Re-mark, adjust your angle if necessary and do it again. Maybe make two or three strokes. In the beginning, you're trying to educate yourself about how your holding the knife but also recognizing that there is likely some inconsistencies in the "factory" grind.

Don't stress out over it. Relax and take your time. It'll come.


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## r0bz (Nov 23, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Agreed. If you're using a rod and maintaining a _proper _edge, then you should be able to transfer that over to a stone. Both methods require you to hold a certain and consistent angle.
> 
> When working with a stone, don't feel like you have to go fast, especially if you're using classic back and forth strokes. mark your edge with Sharpie and run it down the stone. Observe the marker and your edge. Re-mark, adjust your angle if necessary and do it again. Maybe make two or three strokes. In the beginning, you're trying to educate yourself about how your holding the knife but also recognizing that there is likely some inconsistencies in the "factory" grind.
> 
> Don't stress out over it. Relax and take your time. It'll come.


thank for info

should i sharpen the heel and tip of the vegetable cleaver more like vincent shows in this video ?
btw i am asking all this questions because i dont have any experience with sharpening chinese vegetable cleavers


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 23, 2021)

As others have said, just sharpen it like you do any other knife. Keep it simple.

After you've sharpened your clever about a hundred times and consistently get excellent edges, then maybe come back and see what a master sharpener does.


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## Oshidashi (Nov 23, 2021)

r0bz said:


> i heard mulitple guys say it in youtube i tried it and didnt know what am i searching for exactly if you can expand on that as it has been unclear subject for me for a long time hahahahah



If you slide a knife gently along the wetted stone, edge leading, at a very low angle so that the very edge does not yet contact the stone it will slide easily. If you then gradually lift the spine as you are sliding the knife forward, the very edge at some point will make contact with the stone and will slow down because the friction increases when the sharp edge starts to bite, and the sound will also get louder, and thats your angle. That's what I do, anyway, though I'm not an expert. I make a mental note of that angle and try to maintain that through the process, though by feel and sound you'll know you are there. After a while you'll automatically do that trick to find the edge without even realizing that's what you're doing because with practice it only takes about a second.


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## r0bz (Nov 24, 2021)

btw if you do edge leading strokes where will the burr be ?
i know where to search when doing edge trailing strokes its on the opposite side


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 24, 2021)

r0bz said:


> btw if you do edge leading strokes where will the burr be ?
> i know where to search when doing edge trailing strokes its on the opposite side



The burr always forms on the opposite side of the abrasive regardless of direction of travel. The burr is just a very thin layer of metal that doesn't quite get abraded away so it rolls over.


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## M1k3 (Nov 24, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I'd just touch it up on a stone if it's getting blunt, and then strop on cardboard as @HumbleHomeCook said ^. I always strop any knife on cardboard anyway tbh.
> 
> It's probably not something to overthink. They're not massively expensive, and you could sharpen one on a paving slab and get it very useably sharp.
> 
> (I know people joke about paving slabs, but frankly you can sharpen a knife on just about any stone you ever find, paving slabs are just quite coarse usually. Though I've made some very good whetstones out of slate paving, and there are villages in the UK where paving is made out of Charnley, Idwal or Melynllyn stone. So don't write it off eh!)


Where is this magical land of sharpening stone paved streets?


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## stringer (Nov 24, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Where is this magical land of sharpening stone paved streets?


I fixed the tip of my work knife on the sidewalk outside yesterday.


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## M1k3 (Nov 24, 2021)

stringer said:


> I fixed the tip of my work knife on the sidewalk outside yesterday.


Is your sidewalk made of arks?


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## stringer (Nov 24, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Is your sidewalk made of arks?



It's either concrete or cement I can never remember the difference. About 25 grit or so. Leaves some pretty deep scratches.


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## tostadas (Nov 24, 2021)

stringer said:


> I fixed the tip of my work knife on the sidewalk outside yesterday.


Gives new meaning to the term "street food"


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## cotedupy (Nov 24, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Where is this magical land of sharpening stone paved streets?



Haha! May be more common that you think, particularly in Europe; many, maybe even most, of the world's natural sharpening stones were quarried alongside the far larger and more profitable business of quarrying building stones. Screenshots below nabbed from various places...

Llyn Melynllyn stones line the streets of north Wales:








Charnleys make nice houses for the living:






And Hindostans for the dead:







May god have mercy on your soul however, should you use the Wastikivi stone for your garden path:








---

And as a special bonus... this is probably the best whetstone I've found/made. I'm pretty sure it was a piece of paving slate originally:


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## r0bz (Nov 25, 2021)

.


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## r0bz (Nov 25, 2021)

any tips on how to sharpen the tip of a rounded knife such as a regular wusthof


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 25, 2021)

r0bz said:


> any tips on how to sharpen the tip of a rounded knife such as a regular wusthof



Sharpie and raising your elbow as you moving into the curve.


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## r0bz (Nov 25, 2021)

3 questions i have been woundering about
1. it it a must to raise a burr in order to have a sharp knife?
2. on symetrical grind knifes how do you make sure you sharpen the same at both sides?
3. if you sharpened a couple of time and failed to raise a burr do you switch sides to keep the amount of sharpening on both sides the same ?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 25, 2021)

1. Yes. There can be some exceptions but that is more advanced stuff so don't worry about it. The burr is your signal that you've apexed the edge on that side and can progress to the next side.

2. Don't get hung up on counting strokes or trying to keep everything super even. This is more important in a lot of thinning but in not basic sharpening. Struggling to find the burr because you aren't sure what you're doing is going to result in a lot more material loss than understanding things and then achieving them. Once you know what you're feeling for, with most steels, achieving an apex (burr) on both sides comes pretty quickly so material loss isn't generally a big issue.

3. There are some exceptions, but again, more advanced stuff, so for right now, raise the burr before you switch. Right now, you're trying to understand what that burr feels like, the look of the angle, etc.

Focus on the basics and don't let things overcomplicate the task. If you're flustered, walk away. You'll get it.


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## r0bz (Nov 26, 2021)

Oshidashi said:


> If you slide a knife gently along the wetted stone, edge leading, at a very low angle so that the very edge does not yet contact the stone it will slide easily. If you then gradually lift the spine as you are sliding the knife forward, the very edge at some point will make contact with the stone and will slow down because the friction increases when the sharp edge starts to bite, and the sound will also get louder, and thats your angle. That's what I do, anyway, though I'm not an expert. I make a mental note of that angle and try to maintain that through the process, though by feel and sound you'll know you are there. After a while you'll automatically do that trick to find the edge without even realizing that's what you're doing because with practice it only takes about a second.


is this the method you are reffering to ?


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## Oshidashi (Nov 26, 2021)

r0bz said:


> is this the method you are reffering to ?




That's pretty much the idea.


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## r0bz (Nov 27, 2021)

Oshidashi said:


> That's pretty much the idea.


does this method work also ?


----------



## stringer (Nov 28, 2021)

stringer said:


> It's either concrete or cement I can never remember the difference. About 25 grit or so. Leaves some pretty deep scratches.



Here are some shots of the tip I fixed on the sidewalk. I should have thought to take a before shot. I leave this knife on the station for anyone to use. Someone had dropped it tip first onto the floor. The last quarter inch was both badly chipped and bent. Ground through the damage on the sidewalk in a couple of minutes.


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## r0bz (Nov 30, 2021)

Oshidashi said:


> That's pretty much the idea.


i did this method on my strong side it worked like magic on the other side my weak side (the side i find harder to sharpen ) it was very hard to find the angle with this method
do you also find it harder to find the angle on your nondominant side (when you flip overr the knife)?


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## Oshidashi (Nov 30, 2021)

I find it pretty easy unless the knife is extremely dull. Maybe you're overthinking it. Anyway, once you have the angle on one side approximate the same angle on the other side (assuming a 50/50 bevel).


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## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

i do all my sharpening with the 800 grit stone...
after i establish burr on both sides i wash the stone to remove the sludge and metal particles in order to strop on the stone to deburr
is it bad to do that is it good ?
i do that because i remember someone in the forum told me to do so i dont remember who


----------



## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

i have an ikea knife that is simmilar to a wusthof in the design and this thing is awfull to halve sweet potato but cutting things like cucumbers tomato potato its very good. ive sharpened it and the edge is very sharp
why is it so bad for cutting hard things like carrots sweet potatoes and butternut squash espicially for halving them (cutting them in half) also sometimes when dicing onions?
link to knife





IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de: Everything Else


IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de: Everything Else



www.amazon.de


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> i have an ikea knife that is simmilar to a wusthof in the design and this thing is awfull to halve sweet potato but cutting things like cucumbers tomato potato its very good. ive sharpened it and the edge is very sharp
> why is it so bad for cutting hard things like carrots sweet potatoes and butternut squash espicially for halving them (cutting them in half) also sometimes when dicing onions?
> link to knife
> 
> ...


My guess is it's very fat behind the edge.


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## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> My guess is it's very fat behind the edge.


for doing this it feels like its stuck the tip of knife is sharp but once it gets inside the onion it gets hard to push it when it getts to the middle of the onion even more so


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## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> My guess is it's very fat behind the edge.


from what bensur says its Krupp's 4116 steel you think thinning can be done?





question about a sharp knife that cant cut tomatoes well


i want to thinn a knife ... i was asking about that at what grit to start i have a 400 gritstone and a 800 So what steel is the knife?




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> from what bensur says its Krupp's 4116 steel you think thinning can be done?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure. You can thin anything. Just sharpen at an angle that's flatter than your cutting bevel and you are thinning.


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## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> Sure. You can thin anything. Just sharpen at an angle that's flatter than your cutting bevel and you are thinning.


should I try to do it evenly like do 2 passes on 1 side flip over and do the same on the other side?
should I do it with the ambidextrous method of switching hands or do it like I sharpen holding the knife in my dominant hand?
how do I know that I thinned enough?
how do I know if I didn't thin enough?
should I do the thinning with the 100/200 gritstone or the 800 gritstone?

asking all those questions because I have no experience thinning a knife


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> should I try to do it evenly like do 2 passes on 1 side flip over and do the same on the other side?
> should I do it with the ambidextrous method of switching hands or do it like I sharpen holding the knife in my dominant hand?
> how do I know that I thinned enough?
> how do I know that I didn't thin enough?
> ...



Give me a minute. I'll show you. Easier than typing.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> Give me a minute. I'll show you. Easier than typing.


thank you for all the information


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## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

The video is uploading. I'll post a link when it's done. In regards to how to know when you are finished, don't try to get there all at once. Test the knife. Thin for a few minutes on each side. Touch up your micro bevel and test the knife again. Go for a few more minutes, test the knife. If you go too far the worst thing that will happens is your edge will be fragile. But then you can just reverse the process a little and thicken it up by being a little more heavy handed with your microbevel.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> The video is uploading. I'll post a link when it's done. In regards to how to know when you are finished, don't try to get there all at once. Test the knife. Thin for a few minutes on each side. Touch up your micro bevel and test the knife again. Go for a few more minutes, test the knife. If you go too far the worst thing that will happens is your edge will be fragile. But then you can just reverse the process a little and thicken it up by being a little more heavy handed with your microbevel.


what is the microbevel ?
i remember the nice diagram you showed me but I don't think i know what you refer to as the micro bevel


https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/attachments/pxl_20211018_122244232-jpg.147493/


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## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

How to thin a chef knife.


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## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> How to thin a chef knife.



thanks for the explanation
you generally don't sharpen knives with the push and pull method?
what is the microbevel ? there is an angle for sharpening and an angle for thinning I understand


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> thanks for the explanation
> you generally don't sharpen knives with the push and pull method?
> what is the microbevel ? there is an angle for sharpening and an angle for thinning I understand



I'm not sure what the push pull method is. Generally I do thinning with what I have heard people describe as scrubbing. Then I do micro bevel work by sweeping the knife along the edge. The micro bevel is the shiny part at the edge here:


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> what is the microbevel ?
> i remember the nice diagram you showed me but I don't think i know what you refer to as the micro bevel
> 
> 
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/attachments/pxl_20211018_122244232-jpg.147493/



In this diagram the "cutting bevel" is the same thing as the micro bevel


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## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> I'm not sure what the push pull method is. Generally I do thinning with what I have heard people describe as scrubbing. Then I do micro bevel work by sweeping the knife along the edge. The micro bevel is the shiny part at the edge here:
> 
> View attachment 154503


most of the people on the forum refer to this as the push and pull method (working section by section applying pressure on the edge trailing strokes)

what is the advantage of the single stroke method you showed in the video?
how can you check for burr if you alternate from side to side ?


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> most of the people on the forum refer to this as the push and pull method



Yes, this is what I call scrubbing. I use this method for thinning. Or removing material from the sides of the knife. When doing this I don't really pay attention to the burr until the end. When I'm done thinning I should be able to raise a burr with one light stroke in either direction.



> what is the advantage of the single stroke method you showed in the video?
> how can you check for burr if you alternate from side to side ?



When doing apex work I do a sweeping method because I feel I'm more accurate and precise with it. Because you are dealing with such a small contact area any force is amplified so it pays to be as precise as possible. I do my sweeping strokes edge leading and alternating. This means I raise a burr with every stroke. But I also erase completely the previous burr with every stroke. As I get closer to finishing I use a lighter and lighter touch and finer and finer stones. At a microscopic level there is always a burr. But the goal is to abrade and minimize it as much as possible. I feel this is a better strategy than "ripping" the burr off. I will sometimes do this in between thinning and sharpening. Especially with soft stainless there is often a lot of debris and fatigued steel that can hang on. So to save time I will try and rip some of it off after thinning and before building a microbevel. Drag it through cork or some end grain wood.


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## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> Yes, this is what I call scrubbing. I use this method for thinning. Or removing material from the sides of the knife. When doing this I don't really pay attention to the burr until the end. When I'm done thinning I should be able to raise a burr with one light stroke in either direction.
> 
> 
> 
> When doing apex work I do a sweeping method because I feel I'm more accurate and precise with it. Because you are dealing with such a small contact area any force is amplified so it pays to be as precise as possible. I do my sweeping strokes edge leading and alternating. This means I raise a burr with every stroke. But I also erase completely the previous burr with every stroke. As I get closer to finishing I use a lighter and lighter touch and finer and finer stones. At a microscopic level there is always a burr. But the goal is to abrade and minimize it as much as possible. I feel this is a better strategy than "ripping" the burr off. I will sometimes do this in between thinning and sharpening. Especially with soft stainless there is often a lot of debris and fatigued steel that can hang on. So to save time I will try and rip some of it off after thinning and before building a microbevel. Drag it through cork or some end grain wood.


I sharpen the edge using the push and pull method
I sharpen 1 side until I can feel a good burr along the whole edge then I flip sides until I get a good burr on the whole edge
then I strop on the stone edge trailing and the last few strokes I do edge leading as u suggested in order to deburr

I was asking this because if you do your single stroke method how do you know you are finished sharpening and ready to deburr if you alternate from side to side and cant check for the burr?


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> I sharpen the edge using the push and pull method
> I sharpen 1 side until I can feel a good burr along the whole edge then I flip sides until I get a good burr on the whole edge
> then I strop on the stone edge trailing and the last few strokes I do edge leading as u suggested in order to deburr
> 
> I was asking this because if you do your single stroke method how do you know you are finished sharpening and ready to deburr if you alternate from side to side and cant check for the burr?




I only use the push pull method for pretty serious thinning. Most of the rest of the time i only sharpen the micro bevel. I know when I need to thin when I can't feel a burr after one sweeping stroke on a 1000 grit stone.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> I only use the push pull method for pretty serious thinning. Most of the rest of the time i only sharpen the micro bevel. I know when I need to thin when I can't feel a burr after one sweeping stroke on a 1000 grit stone.


hmmm okay would you refer to the sweeping stroke as stropping edge leading ?


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## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> hmmm okay would you refer to the sweeping stroke as stropping edge leading ?


I only use edge trailing strokes on strops. I only use edge leading strokes on stones.


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## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> I only use edge trailing strokes on strops. I only use edge leading strokes on stones.


okay for deburring you use the edge leading strokes on the stone?
cant they create a new burr?


----------



## rmrf (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> How to thin a chef knife.


I really, really liked this video. I just started on my thinning adventures so I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

What changes when thinning as the stone gets dished? Or, how bad does the stone need to be dished before it needs to be flattened? It feels wasteful to flatten each time I notice my stone dishing. 


I think you said you go up to 2000 with thinning. Why is that? If it was just surface finish, I would think you would use sandpaper or something? 

Or, are you always thinning to the point that you hit the edge? You then add a "micro" bevel at an angle that you like sharpening at and an even smaller "nano" bevel to stabilize / deburr? Is the point of the "micro" bevel so that you don't have to thin every time you sharpen or is it mostly so that the edge isn't too thin / weak? 


A similar question: Lets say you finished thinning to your satisfaction, used the knife and now it is dull but not thick behind the edge. Would you sharpen at the micro bevel angle with the alternating edge leading strokes, then add the nano bevel? Does the micro bevel grow in size the more times your sharpen without thinning? Does a large micro bevel (bevel at the "sharpening angle") size basically tell me that I should (or could) thin my knife?


Does food release depend on convexing the thinning bevel / changing the thinning angle? I think kipp had some long description of that, maybe I should read that again...


----------



## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> I only use edge trailing strokes on strops. I only use edge leading strokes on stones.


i do the apex work with the push and pull method
thats what i meant to say


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> okay for deburring you use the edge leading strokes on the stone?
> cant they create a new burr?



Yes. I intend for them to create a new burr on every stroke. Just a smaller and smaller one with each stroke. I go to finer stones and use less pressure. Edge trailing draws a burr out with every stroke making it bigger. Edge leading knocks it down to the other side every time. I would rather minimize it than make it bigger.




r0bz said:


> i do the apex work with the push and pull method
> thats what i meant to say



I have tried working this way and it doesn't work for me. I don't feel like i have any precise motor control when using this method. It's just for hogging material on a knife that needs a lot of work. For me.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 2, 2021)

What @stringer is saying is, when he thins the blade, the edge is already so thin that he doesn't need to make multiple strokes on one side to raise the burr. He is still raising one, he can just do it with that single stroke.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> What @stringer is saying is, when he thins the blade, the edge is already so thin that he doesn't need to make multiple strokes on one side to raise the burr. He is still raising one, he can just do it with that single stroke.


hmmm do you think he can he feel it with the thumb if he tries to ?


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> hmmm do you think he can he feel it with the thumb if he tries to ?



I think I'll let @stringer answer that.


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

rmrf said:


> I really, really liked this video. I just started on my thinning adventures so I have a few questions, if you don't mind.
> 
> What changes when thinning as the stone gets dished? Or, how bad does the stone need to be dished before it needs to be flattened? It feels wasteful to flatten each time I notice my stone dishing.




For major thinning a little dishing doesn't bother me. I am going for a convex grind most of the time so dishing and wobbling really aren't enemies until I get to the apex work. They should be done on very flat stones for best results. But that work isn't hard on stones so higher grit stones don't dish much.





> I think you said you go up to 2000 with thinning. Why is that? If it was just surface finish, I would think you would use sandpaper or something?




I am too lazy for sandpaper most of the time. 2k is a nice finish for food release. 



> Or, are you always thinning to the point that you hit the edge? You then add a "micro" bevel at an angle that you like sharpening at and an even smaller "nano" bevel to stabilize / deburr? Is the point of the "micro" bevel so that you don't have to thin every time you sharpen or is it mostly so that the edge isn't too thin / weak?




I only do serious thinning on a knife once unless there is damage. Any amount of damage repair requires some thinning in my book. You are raising the apex above whatever chip you are getting rid of, you need to shift the rest of the geometry too or the knife will lose performance. The micro bevel makes the edge tougher and more durable. Prevents chipping and rolling. I prefer knives that are very thin behind the edge for performance with a micro bevel for durability.



> A similar question: Lets say you finished thinning to your satisfaction, used the knife and now it is dull but not thick behind the edge. Would you sharpen at the micro bevel angle with the alternating edge leading strokes, then add the nano bevel? Does the micro bevel grow in size the more times your sharpen without thinning? Does a large micro bevel (bevel at the "sharpening angle") size basically tell me that I should (or could) thin my knife?





I would sharpen at the micro bevel angle for as long as possible with alternating edge leading. The micro bevel does grow over time. But you can only tell if a knife is performing how you want it to by using it. There are many factors with geometry, profile, blade thickness, grind, etc that influence the size of the micro bevel. You can't tell just by looking.



> Does food release depend on convexing the thinning bevel / changing the thinning angle? I think kipp had some long description of that, maybe I should read that again...



Convexity is good for food release. I prefer convex to flat or concave in general but this is another one of those things where it's very complicated. There are a lot of ways to grind a knife.


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> hmmm do you think he can he feel it with the thumb if he tries to ?



Sure I can feel it with my thumb.


----------



## boomchakabowwow (Dec 2, 2021)

dont laugh. i just rub my cleavers on a Spyderco Sharpmaker. it works fine. my ancestors are rolling in their graves tho.

i recently just took off my middle finger's print when i was drying my 1303. i didnt even feel it..till later. then i felt my heartbeat in the tip of my finger while i was yelling.."yah yah yah get yah yah, me a..yah yah. bandaide...yaaaaah!"


----------



## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> Sure I can feel it with my thumb.



I do the apex work with the push and pull method as i mentioned
I have a few questions

I use the 800 gritstone although I have 3000/1000 and 100/200 grit 
1. would you say after raising the burr on both sides before deburring I should wash the stone from all the sludge and metal particles (i do that because someone in the forum told me to do so wondering what's your opinion on that)?
2. should I deburr with edge leading or edge trailing in your opinion with the stropping on the stone what you call the swiping stroke?


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> I do the apex work with the push and pull method as i mentioned
> I have a few questions
> 
> I use the 800 gritstone although I have 3000/1000 and 100/200 grit
> ...



Yes it's a good idea to rinse the knife off frequently. Debris will keep you from being able to see what you are doing. I always use edge leading strokes when I do the sweeping motion.


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## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> I always use edge leading strokes when I do the sweeping motion.


in order to ger rid of the burr ?(or minimize it)


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## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> in order to ger rid of the burr ?(or minimize it)


Exactly


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## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> Exactly


its okay to do those edge leading strokes with the 800 gritstone in order to deburr ?


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> its okay to do those edge leading strokes with the 800 gritstone in order to deburr ?



Sure you can start there. But I normally would start around 1-2k for the micro bevel.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 2, 2021)

stringer said:


> Sure you can start there. But I normally would start around 1-2k for the micro bevel.


i do all the sharpening on the 800 grit because many of the members told me there is no benefit for me to go higher than that with the cheap ikea knife because its a low rockwell hrc






question about a sharp knife that cant cut tomatoes well


I sharpened the knife on an 800 gritstone made burr then deburred on it and then moved to 8000 gritstone and deburred on that stone sharpening angle approx 17degrees, the knife is very sharp it cuts through paper with ease but through tomatoes it doesn't work pretty well what might be the...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com




" For German stainless I'd just end on the 800 grit stone. "


----------



## stringer (Dec 2, 2021)

r0bz said:


> i do all the sharpening on the 800 grit because many of the members told me there is no benefit for me to go higher than that with the cheap ikea knife because its a low rockwell hrc
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes that's true. I wouldn't spend much time on finer stones for soft stainless but for the last couple of strokes you can really get rid of the burr if you hop up a little.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> Yes that's true. I wouldn't spend much time on finer stones for soft stainless but for the last couple of strokes you can really get rid of the burr if you hop up a little.


so you suggest I do a couple of strokes on the 3000 gritstone for deburring?
how many strokes do I need to do in your opinion in order to not get rid of the teeth


----------



## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> so you suggest I do a couple of strokes on the 3000 gritstone for deburring?
> how many strokes do I need to do in your opinion in order to not get rid of the teeth


This is another one of those things where you are going to just have to practice and figure out what works best for you. When I was sharpening cheap stainless for a whole army of cooks I liked to do most of the work on a 500 with about 6 strokes on a 2k to complete the deburring.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> This is another one of those things where you are going to just have to practice and figure out what works best for you. When I was sharpening cheap stainless for a whole army of cooks I liked to do most of the work on a 500 with about 6 strokes on a 2k to complete the deburring.


what I meant is i don't want to lose the teeth because then I cant cut tomato
and if i do too many strokes on the 3k stone i lose teeth


----------



## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> what i meant is i dont want to loose the teeth because then i cant cut tomato



I know what you mean. It's just that there are too many variables with technique and which stones you are using and what the knife is and how you use it. What works for me won't necessarily work for you. You just gotta try it out and compare. See what your knife does after just the 800. Then do a couple strokes on your 1000 or 3000 stone and try cutting again. See if it feels the same or different. Try stropping on some cardboard or newspaper. Try cutting again, etc. A lot of it is stuff you have to figure out yourself.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> This is another one of those things where you are going to just have to practice and figure out what works best for you. When I was sharpening cheap stainless for a whole army of cooks I liked to do most of the work on a 500 with about 6 strokes on a 2k to complete the deburring.


the fine stone i have is either a 6000 grit or 8000 grit i dont know 
i didnt keep the packaging and bought it a long time ago


----------



## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> the fine stone i have is either a 6000 grit or 8000 grit i dont know


Try it out see what happens. Just a couple of strokes can help refine the burr without losing too much tooth. If you don't like it then a couple of strokes on the 800 brings you right back where you were.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> Try it out see what happens. Just a couple of strokes can help refine the burr without losing too much tooth. If you don't like it then a couple of strokes on the 800 brings you right back where you were.


edge leading stropping strokes yes ?


----------



## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> edge leading strokes yes ?


That's how I do it. Edge trailing if you try to stropping on newspaper or cardboard


----------



## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

btw i think you are right the cheap ikea knife when cutting stuff like carrots at the end they break insted of get cutt simmilar to an axe splitting a tree


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> How to thin a chef knife.



you have sanded the knife with the belt sander 
as i don't have a belt sander do you think the thinning work with the stone will have anyeffect or it will be benign?


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## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> you have sanded the knife with the belt sander
> as i don't have a belt sander do you think the thinning work with the stone will have anyeffect or it will be benign?



Don't even think about the belt sander. Just put it out of your mind, lol. I just picked that knife because it's the most similar thing I have to what you are working with. But it's irrelevant to what I was showing you. You can target any part of the knife or cleaver you want to remove metal from. For the type of thinning you want to do the angle should be pretty flat so you are hitting the area behind the edge. That's a very easy on the stone way to sharpen. Not much risk of gouging or anything. I can show you on a cleaver if you want. But the one I have on hand at the moment has also seen a lot of the belt sander lately.


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

after you marked the area with the marker did you change your angle? or the same angle flat on the stone


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## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> after you marked the area with the marker did you change your angle? or the same angle flat on the stone



Not quite flat. A little angle so I only catch that strip where the ink is.


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> Not quite flat. A little angle so I only catch that strip where the ink is.



how do i know where to mark ?


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## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> how do i know where to mark ?


You can mark the entire blade. Or at least the bottom half. That way you can tell exactly where you are making contact. Whatever's there after you sharpen can be wiped away with rubbing alcohol


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> You can mark the entire blade. Or at least the bottom half. That way you can tell exactly where you are making contact. Whatever's there after you sharpen can be wiped away with rubbing alcohol


okay 
how do i know the angle for the thinning if completely flat is not good


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## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> okay
> how do i know the angle for the thinning if completely flat is not good


By looking at where the marker is being rubbed away. That will tell you if you're angle makes contact in the spot you want


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> But looking at where the marker is being rubbed away. That will tell you if you're angle makes contact in the spot you want



how do i know how much behind the apex do i want to thinn?
i know on the Japanese knifes you have the shinogi line so its easier to tell what part you want to thinn...


----------



## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> how do i know how much behind the apex do i want to thinn?
> i know on the Japanese knifes you have the shinogi line so its easier to tell what part you want to thinn...



Trial and error. This is another personal preference thing.


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> Trial and error. This is another personal preference thing.


it has to be symmetrical the thinning on both sides yes?
when sharpening the apex I do the trick @Oshidashi mentioned in order to get the same angle on both sides but with the thinning, I don't know the method to get the same angle on both sides also do you recommend thinning using the ambidextrous way of switching the hands?


----------



## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> it has to be symmetrical the thinning on both sides yes?
> when sharpening the apex I do the trick @Oshidashi mentioned in order to get the same angle on both sides but with the thinning, I don't know the method to get the same angle on both sides also do you recommend thinning using the ambidextrous way of switching the hands?



I do everything based on feel. Does it feel right when it's cutting? Does it steer? If it doesn't feel right then I make another adjustment and try again. It's a muscle memory thing you have to practice and develop.

I switch hands. Some people flip. Personal preference.


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> I do everything based on feel. Does it feel right when it's cutting? Does it steer? If it doesn't feel right then I make another adjustment and try again. It's a muscle memory thing you have to practice and develop.
> 
> I switch hands. Some people flip. Personal preference.


if one side is ground more than the other where will the knife steer?


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## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> if one side is ground more than the other where will the knife steer?


It depends on your technique and what you are cutting and the knife but yes that's a possibility.


----------



## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> It depends on your technique and what you are cutting and the knife but yes that's a possibility.


By steer I mean when you try and push straight down the knife tries to steer left or right instead.


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> By steer I mean when you try and push straight down the knife tries to steer left or right instead.


if the left side from the above view of the knife is ground more where will it steer ?


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

what i am meaning to ask is if i thin the knife and it starts steering one way how do i fix it


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## M1k3 (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> what i am meaning to ask is if i thin the knife and it starts steering one way how do i fix it


If it steers to the left, increase your sharpening angle on the left side. 

If it steers right, higher angle on the right side.


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

ive seen couple of guys do that why do they cutt onto something like a brick before sharpening


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## M1k3 (Dec 3, 2021)

I've done that before doing major thinning. Helps save the fingertips. But never before only sharpening.


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

an important question can steering be dangerous ?


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## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> an important question can steering be dangerous ?


No. Not really. Single bevel knives steer like crazy. But in a pinch you can still make adjustments to your technique to make then usable without hurting yourself.


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## r0bz (Dec 3, 2021)

stringer said:


> No. Not really. Single bevel knives steer like crazy. But in a pinch you can still make adjustments to your technique to make then usable without hurting yourself.


yes but you have a single bevel knife for a righty and a single bevel knife for a lefty
so let's say a righty uses a lefty single bevel knife will it be dangerous ?


----------



## stringer (Dec 3, 2021)

r0bz said:


> yes but you have a single bevel knife for a righty and a single bevel knife for a lefty
> so let's say a righty uses a lefty single bevel knife will it be dangerous ?


I've never tried that or heard of anyone trying that but it would be an interesting experiment. Probably still not very dangerous. Just inconvenient and annoying.


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## Oshidashi (Dec 4, 2021)

How about just go ahead and sharpen your cleaver and let us know how it turns out.


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## r0bz (Dec 4, 2021)

Oshidashi said:


> How about just go ahead and sharpen your cleaver and let us know how it turns out.


sharpening is okay thinning I am not completely sure about


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## Oshidashi (Dec 4, 2021)

Oy vey


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## r0bz (Dec 4, 2021)

Oshidashi said:


> Oy vey


?


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## Benuser (Dec 4, 2021)

stringer said:


> I've never tried that or heard of anyone trying that but it would be an interesting experiment. Probably still not very dangerous. Just inconvenient and annoying.


Have never tried, but I see a serious problem whith a right-hander handling a leftie single bevel. We are used to compensate for steering, and now it operates it the other way around, and the handling we are used to makes it even worse. In my country, pupils at the culinary school learn a very firm grip, especially with an unknown knife. Firm grip + unexpected anti-clockwise steering is asking for surprises, to say the least. Better take care.


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## r0bz (Dec 5, 2021)

do you do the same adjustment for the tip of the knife for thinning as when you are sharpening ?


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## r0bz (Dec 5, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Have never tried, but I see a serious problem whith a right-hander handling a leftie single bevel. We are used to compensate for steering, and now it operates it the other way around, and the handling we are used to makes it even worse. In my country, pupils at the culinary school learn a very firm grip, especially with an unknown knife. Firm grip + unexpected anti-clockwise steering is asking for surprises, to say the least. Better take care.


the thing is I want to thinn and to end up with a 50/50 bevel (a knife that doesn't steer)
by anticlockwise, you mean that for a righty the knifes edge will steer towards your guide hand ?


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## r0bz (Dec 5, 2021)

stringer said:


> How to thin a chef knife.
> 
> 
> why at the start you were grinding the knife at completely flat 0 degrees ?


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## r0bz (Dec 5, 2021)

does it matter if you get scratches up on the blade?
fixing those scratches is just for the esthetics?
how do you bother to fix em scratches


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## Benuser (Dec 5, 2021)

r0bz said:


> by anticlockwise, you mean that for a righty the knifes edge will steer towards your guide hand ?


No, the other way around.


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## Benuser (Dec 5, 2021)

r0bz said:


> the thing is I want to thinn and to end up with a 50/50 bevel (a knife that doesn't steer)


What kind of knife is involved? How does it behave now? And why would one aim for a symmetric edge? When you start sharpening behind the edge on one side, and only little by little raise the spine until the very edge has been reached, before doing the same on the other side, you may splendidly ignore angles, proportions and other figures.


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## r0bz (Dec 5, 2021)

Benuser said:


> What kind of knife is involved? How does it behave now? And why would one aim for a symmetric edge? When you start sharpening behind the edge on one side, and only little by little raise the spine until the very edge has been reached, before doing the same on the other side, you may splendidly ignore angles, proportions and other figures.


its this ikea knife





IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de: Everything Else


IKEA GYNNSAM Cook's knife 'Carving Knife in Gastronomy Quality – 16 cm blade 12 Inch Length – 15 Year Guarantee – Molybdenum Vanadium Steel : Amazon.de: Everything Else



www.amazon.de





it behaves very bad when trying to cut hard veggies like carrots what many people in the forum call wedging
what I meant is I want to thin the knife and not make it steer but cut straight
please ignore what I've said about the 50/50


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## Benuser (Dec 5, 2021)

r0bz said:


> its this ikea knife
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In fact, any sharpening at a lower angle than the one you use for the final edge, is a form of thinning. E.g.: if you sharpen at 15 degree per side, a backbevel of 10 degree would already give a boost in performance. I don't know the knife or its steel, but wouldn't be surprised if it were very abrasion resistant. Don't be afraid to use a really coarse stone. It's often the case with soft stainless. You may progress by little steps. First I would remove the shoulders, i.e. where bevel and face meet. Go on until the original bevel is barely visible. You may do so equally on both sides.


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## r0bz (Dec 9, 2021)

something i have been thinking about for some time
when honing with the steel isnt enough i go to the stone i Create burr on one side with push and pull method then create on other side then deburr 
what do the guys on youtube mean when they say a touch-up on the stone?


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## M1k3 (Dec 9, 2021)

I use this method for touch ups.

@TSF415


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## r0bz (Dec 9, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> I use this method for touch ups.
> 
> @TSF415



okay but how do you know if this "touch up" isnt enough ?
i do this to deburr what you sent the video


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## M1k3 (Dec 9, 2021)

If after 2-5 or passes per side, the knife doesn't get to "acceptable" sharpness.


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## r0bz (Dec 9, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> If after 2-5 or passes per side, the knife doesn't get to "acceptable" sharpness.


okay so if you strop the knife
and do 2-5 or passes per side, and the knife doesn't get to "acceptable" sharpness.
then you do the push and pull method and start raising a burr on both sides and deburr ?


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## M1k3 (Dec 9, 2021)

r0bz said:


> okay so if you strop the knife
> and do 2-5 or passes per side, and the knife doesn't get to "acceptable" sharpness.
> then you do the push and pull method and start raising a burr on both sides and deburr ?


Yes.


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## r0bz (Dec 10, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Yes.


you do the stropping with edge leading strokes?
on a coarse stone or a fine stones ?:


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## M1k3 (Dec 10, 2021)

r0bz said:


> you do the stropping with edge leading strokes?
> on a coarse stone or a fine stones ?:


If a few edge leading passes don't work, I then get out my Shapton Glass 500. Splash some water on it. Hold my knife firmly, but not to firmly. And not loose. Wouldn't want to drop it. Because if we did, then we'd have to start a new thread. Or continue this. But I egress. Anyway, back on topic...

Rub knife back and forth until burr is fully formed.

Switch sides. Create burr on this side.

Flip knife over. Do a few stropping/edge trailing passes.

Flip knife. Repeat.

Flip knife. Do a few edge leading passes.

Flip knife. Do a few edge leading passes.

Check burr. If still there, do some more edge leading passes. Repeat until it's gone.

Once burr is gone, go onto a finer stone. Or just use the knife.


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## r0bz (Dec 10, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> If after 2-5 or passes per side, the knife doesn't get to "acceptable" sharpness.


the thing is I thought you should always go through the process of creating the burr on both sides with the push and pull method then deburr in order to sharpen

how does the "touch-up method" work?


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## Benuser (Dec 10, 2021)

r0bz said:


> the thing is I thought you should always go through the process of creating the burr on both sides with the push and pull method then deburr in order to sharpen
> 
> how does the "touch-up method" work?


I touch up to recover the fresh-of-the-stone, crisp feeling that got lost after a few days of home use. I don't wait for serious dulling. With a few edge leading passes on a Belgian Brocken — some 4k — followed by deburring along the edge the feeling I'm looking for is restored. Just verified with a simple carbon steel blade: already after the first stroke a burr is perceptible, although not even along the entire edge. That's only the case after the second one.
My idea of touching up is to do it very early, long before the loss of performance makes the need obvious.
It allows to postpone a full sharpening until the moment fatigued steel needs to get removed — which takes months of home use.


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## r0bz (Dec 10, 2021)

Benuser said:


> I touch up to recover the fresh-of-the-stone, crisp feeling that got lost after a few days of home use. I don't wait for serious dulling. With a few edge leading passes on a Belgian Brocken — some 4k — followed by deburring along the edge the feeling I'm looking for is restored. Just verified with a simple carbon steel blade: already after the first stroke a burr is perceptible, although not even along the entire edge. That's only the case after the second one.
> My idea of touching up is to do it very early, long before the loss of performance makes the need obvious.
> It allows to postpone a full sharpening until the moment fatigued steel needs to get removed — which takes months of home use.


hmm sounds very interesting thank you for that comment!!!!


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## Benuser (Dec 10, 2021)

r0bz said:


> hmm sounds very interesting thank you for that comment!!!!


You're most welcome. My pleasure.


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## r0bz (Dec 10, 2021)

Benuser said:


> leading passes


by the way when you say edge leading passes you mean edge leading stropping strokes on stone ?
like in the vid?


----------



## Benuser (Dec 10, 2021)

r0bz said:


> by the way when you say edge leading passes you mean edge leading stropping strokes on stone ?
> like in the vid?



Yes. I used pass instead of stroke because with a long blade you can't always do it in one, single motion.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 10, 2021)

Benuser said:


> I touch up to recover the fresh-of-the-stone, crisp feeling that got lost after a few days of home use. I don't wait for serious dulling. With a few edge leading passes on a Belgian Brocken — some 4k — followed by deburring along the edge the feeling I'm looking for is restored. Just verified with a simple carbon steel blade: already after the first stroke a burr is perceptible, although not even along the entire edge. That's only the case after the second one.
> My idea of touching up is to do it very early, long before the loss of performance makes the need obvious.
> It allows to postpone a full sharpening until the moment fatigued steel needs to get removed — which takes months of home use.


would you say for a low hrc knife a honing steel will do the same thing as the touchup on the stone ?
and when the honing steel dosnt get the knife to its optimal sharpness would you try a touchup on the stone or create burr both sides with push and pull method then deburr


----------



## Benuser (Dec 10, 2021)

r0bz said:


> would you say for a low hrc knife a honing steel will do the same thing as the touchup on the stone ?
> and when the honing steel dosnt get the knife to its optimal sharpness would you try a touchup on the stone or create burr both sides with push and pull method then deburr


You may compare the touching-up to the use of a very good honing steel. The only one I would recommend is the Dickoron Micro, if used with great care and the lightest possible touch. Most common steels create a new edge out of fatigued steel, while fatiguing the steel bit more. The new edge will hardly hold.
When honing doesn't work any longer it's really time for a full sharpening, where the fatigued steel gets abraded and an entirely new edge gets built. As the new edge comes in a thicker part of the blade you should start by thinning behind the edge and only little by little raising the spine until the very edge got reached. I start a full sharpening with a relatively coarse stone, 600 or lower.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 10, 2021)

Benuser said:


> You may compare the touching-up to the use of a very good honing steel. The only one I would recommend is the Dickoron Micro, if used with great care and the lightest possible touch. Most common steels create a new edge out of fatigued steel, while fatiguing the steel bit more. The new edge will hardly hold.
> When honing doesn't work any longer it's really time for a full sharpening, where the fatigued steel gets abraded and an entirely new edge gets built. As the new edge comes in a thicker part of the blade you should start by thinning behind the edge and only little by little raising the spine until the very edge got reached. I start a full sharpening with a relatively coarse stone, 600 or lower.


so you do not recommend this honing rod ?


Amazon.com


this is what i have and i use what are the downsides of it ?
btw if you use a honing steel do you apply little force onto it or alot ?


----------



## r0bz (Dec 10, 2021)

Benuser said:


> You may compare the touching-up to the use of a very good honing steel. The only one I would recommend is the Dickoron Micro, if used with great care and the lightest possible touch. Most common steels create a new edge out of fatigued steel, while fatiguing the steel bit more. The new edge will hardly hold.
> When honing doesn't work any longer it's really time for a full sharpening, where the fatigued steel gets abraded and an entirely new edge gets built. As the new edge comes in a thicker part of the blade you should start by thinning behind the edge and only little by little raising the spine until the very edge got reached. I start a full sharpening with a relatively coarse stone, 600 or lower.


would you suggest I use my 6000 gritstone for the "touch-ups" or my 800 gritstone if my knife Rockwell HRC is between 55-58


----------



## Benuser (Dec 10, 2021)

r0bz said:


> so you do not recommend this honing rod ?
> 
> 
> Amazon.com
> ...


With pressure: you mill a new, coarse edge at a probably much higher angle on top of the old one without deburring it, so it's life span will be very short. 
With little pressure you create a wire edge, a special case of a burr, on top of the old edge. Very sharp, until it comes into contact with the board and folds over the edge, which is instantly blunt like a butter knife, or breaks leaving a moonscape-like edge behind.


----------



## Benuser (Dec 10, 2021)

r0bz said:


> would you suggest I use my 6000 gritstone for the "touch-ups" or my 800 gritstone if my knife Rockwell HRC is between 55-58


Your knife needs a good sharpening, including thinning. I guess it's a soft stainless, so polishing makes no sense. 
Once a proper new edge installed, we may discuss how to maintain it. Touching-up with the finest stone is no option in this case. Stropping on cardboard can be helpful. Now you are able to recognise a burr you may try to abrade it with a longitudinal pass, along the entire blade, with the lightest possible pressure at the sharpening angle or slightly higher. Here again, a marker and a loupe are helpful to make sure you hit exactly the edge. With a bit of exercise and experience, you will be able to feel the burr through the blade. The contact with the stone feels buttery. 
But for now: give that blade a good sharpening. Sharpening out what the rod left is quite a job. Again: permanent marker and loupe. Before that, have a look with your loupe what the rod has caused. Warning: is no fun.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 11, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Your knife needs a good sharpening, including thinning. I guess it's a soft stainless, so polishing makes no sense.
> Once a proper new edge installed, we may discuss how to maintain it. Touching-up with the finest stone is no option in this case. Stropping on cardboard can be helpful. Now you are able to recognise a burr you may try to abrade it with a longitudinal pass, along the entire blade, with the lightest possible pressure at the sharpening angle or slightly higher. Here again, a marker and a loupe are helpful to make sure you hit exactly the edge. With a bit of exercise and experience, you will be able to feel the burr through the blade. The contact with the stone feels buttery.
> But for now: give that blade a good sharpening. Sharpening out what the rod left is quite a job. Again: permanent marker and loupe. Before that, have a look with your loupe what the rod has caused. Warning: is no fun.


so you do not recommend I use this rod?
from what i understand from your answer honing on honing steel is very bad for your knife and is pretty much useless? even if the knife is a soft knife between 55-58 Rockwell HRC


----------



## Benuser (Dec 11, 2021)

We had that honing rod discussion before, @r0bz 
Do you really want me to answer the same question for the third time?


----------



## r0bz (Dec 11, 2021)

STEELING


it seems like the smooth steel is better than the grooved steel as you said


----------



## r0bz (Dec 11, 2021)

Benuser said:


> We had that honing rod discussion before, @r0bz
> Do you really want me to answer the same question for the third time?
> View attachment 155577


what other fellows say compared to what you say contradicts for example what ryky is sayin here i am fairly confused

also bob kramer


----------



## Benuser (Dec 11, 2021)

r0bz said:


> what other fellows say compared to what you say contradicts for example what ryky is sayin here i am fairly confused
> 
> also bob kramer



Don't worry, I won't bother you any further.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 11, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Don't worry, I won't bother you any further.


you are not bothering me i am just confused i think you are right but i dont know what shall i do between my sharpenings in order to keep my knife sharp what i was doing for some time now is use the honing steel but now i dont know what can replace the space that the honing steel leaves if i dont use it
did i waste my money buying that honing steel as its useless ?

for keeping the knife sharp between sharpening sessions
should i strop on the 800gritstone?
should i strop on the cardboard?
should i strop on leather?


----------



## stringer (Dec 11, 2021)

r0bz said:


> you are not bothering me i am just confused i think you are right but i dont know what shall i do between my sharpenings in order to keep my knife sharp what i was doing for some time now is use the honing steel but now i dont know what can replace the space that the honing steel leaves if i dont use it
> did i waste my money buying that honing steel as its useless ?
> 
> for keeping the knife sharp between sharpening sessions
> ...



Rough honing steels are no good. They foul up the edge. You should try your stones, cardboard, leather etc. They are so much better. Find out what works for you. We can only help you so much with theory and info. You gotta try it for yourself and start building the muscle memory and practicing and figure out what works for you and your knives.


----------



## r0bz (Dec 11, 2021)

stringer said:


> Rough honing steels are no good. They foul up the edge. You should try your stones, cardboard, leather etc. They are so much better. Find out what works for you. We can only help you so much with theory and info. You gotta try it for yourself and start building the muscle memory and practicing and figure out what works for you and your knives.


the thing is I used the rough steel hone and it seemed it worked well
when knife started to cut tomatoes bad i honed it on the steel and it cut tomatoes like razor-sharp
that's why i don't understand why the honing steel is bad

also, why do many people recommend it ?
they don't have a deep understanding of what it does to their knives?


----------



## stringer (Dec 11, 2021)

r0bz said:


> the thing is I used the rough steel hone and it seemed it worked well
> when knife started to cut tomatoes bad i honed it on the steel and it cut tomatoes like razor-sharp
> that's why i don't understand why the honing steel is bad
> 
> ...



People have different opinions about stuff. @Benuser and I agree about 99% of the time but we still have different opinions on ceramic rods for instance. I am much more of a fan than he is. Anyone can make a YouTube video, it doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. And even if whatever they do works for them, it doesn't mean it will work for you. Usually when people are making videos on the internet they are selling stuff. So keep that in mind too.

But ultimately how you use and maintain a knife is an intensely personal thing. We can give you all the theory but people are going to get exasperated with you if you don't go try some things for yourself and stop asking the same questions over and over. Be brave. Go try some different techniques. Compare the results. Report back and then ask more questions.


----------



## Michi (Dec 11, 2021)

I'm surprised to see Kramer endorse a honing rod, and a metal one, at that. Even the Zwilling Kramers would be too hard to benefit, I would think. Not to mention a lot of the 62+ Japanese steels.

But then, I guess an edge with a lot of micro-chips from the honing rod will indeed cut tomatoes better than it did before…


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## r0bz (Dec 11, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Don't worry, I won't bother you any further.


i wish i knew it before that the honing steel is bad for the knives and pretty much useless !!!!
thank you for throwing light at the subject


----------



## sumis (Dec 11, 2021)

r0bz said:


> i wish i knew it before that the honing steel is bad for the knives and pretty much useless !!!!
> thank you for throwing light at the subject



I'm an (advanced) newbie  Mostly lurking. Learned heaps of stuff from the guys in this thread. My first real lesson was to understand that there comes a time where answers are less important than experience, trial and error. The fact is that only you yourself can decide and develop your style and skill. From a humble beginner to another: I do think you have more information than anyone would need in order to just try out stuff and see what happens. Change **** around. A honing rod won't destroy your knife. Might give you a good reason to put a new edge on though 

I've learned a lot from all the generous answers to your questions in this thread, and elsewhere. But there's not a 100% objective protocol to follow (afaik). My theory is sooo far beyond my practice. And I don't think I can fix that through more theory.

With that said, in my limited experience: 
– a fine ceramic honing rod occasionally is not a problem (Depending on the knife and steel). On the contrary – I've taken care of micro-micro-chips with one.
– Stropping on leather is to me convenient and effective – depending on knife, steel and application.
– Stropping on a fine stone is also great – but to me, that becomes a touch-up

I use all of these methods – with success – and perhaps I'll gravitate more towards one of them with experience. But I need to develop that experience before that can happen – if it will.

.


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## r0bz (Dec 11, 2021)

sumis said:


> I'm an (advanced) newbie  Mostly lurking. Learned heaps of stuff from the guys in this thread. My first real lesson was to understand that there's a time where answers are less important than experience, trial and error, and the fact that only you yourself can decide and develop your style and skill. From a humble beginner to another – you have more information than anyone would need to just try out stuff and see what happens. Change **** around. A honing rod won't destroy your knife. Might give you a good reason to put a new edge on though
> 
> I've learned a lot from all the generous answers to your questions in this thread, and elsewhere. But there's not a 100% objective protocol to follow (afaik).
> 
> .


i do use the honing rod and try stuff it worked okay for me ..... but they say its very bad so i dont know if i will continue to use it


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## KingShapton (Dec 11, 2021)

sumis said:


> My first real lesson was to understand that there comes a time where answers are less important than experience, trial and error. The fact is that only you yourself can decide and develop your style and skill.






sumis said:


> i do think you have more information than anyone would need in order to just try out stuff and see what happens.


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## r0bz (Dec 11, 2021)

KingShapton said:


>


nice cat man


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## KingShapton (Dec 11, 2021)

stringer said:


> We can give you all the theory but people are going to get exasperated with you if you don't go try some things for yourself and stop asking the same questions over and over.


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## r0bz (Oct 6, 2022)

Benuser said:


> With pressure: you mill a new, coarse edge at a probably much higher angle on top of the old one without deburring it, so it's life span will be very short.
> With little pressure you create a wire edge, a special case of a burr, on top of the old edge. Very sharp, until it comes into contact with the board and folds over the edge, which is instantly blunt like a butter knife, or breaks leaving a moonscape-like edge behind.


and how does that happen exactly if in microscopic testing, both fine steel and grooved steel and ceramic steel make the knife sharp again by creating a micro-bevel.?








What Does Steeling Do? Part 1


It is a common misconception that steeling does not remove metal, but simply “re-aligns the edge.”




scienceofsharp.com


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## r0bz (Oct 11, 2022)

returning to thread after some time would you say it is better to use the ambidextrous method of switching hands to sharpen large blades such as the Chinese slicer/vegetable cleaver?
i sharpen using the same hand holding the knife and i flip it...


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## stringer (Oct 13, 2022)

r0bz said:


> returning to thread after some time would you say it is better to use the ambidextrous method of switching hands to sharpen large blades such as the Chinese slicer/vegetable cleaver?
> i sharpen using the same hand holding the knife and i flip it...


100% up to you. Whatever makes you happiest.



switching flipping site:kitchenknifeforums.com - Google Search


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## r0bz (Oct 14, 2022)

for those who flip hands how do you keep the wooden handle clean and don't get stone mud in it when sharpening?
with what do you wrap it?


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## M1k3 (Oct 14, 2022)

Plastic wrap.


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## Wagnum (Oct 15, 2022)

Sometimes when I'm sharpening a large heavy cleaver like a Moritaka when I go to sharpen the backside of the blade I'll flip the knife so the handle is facing up and just grip the knife at the spine so I can still use my dominant hand. I'll take some pics later if I remember


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## M1k3 (Oct 15, 2022)

Wagnum said:


> Sometimes when I'm sharpening a large heavy cleaver like a Moritaka when I go to sharpen the backside of the blade I'll flip the knife so the handle is facing up and just grip the knife at the spine so I can still use my dominant hand. I'll take some pics later if I remember


Mazaki, is that you?


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## BillHanna (Oct 15, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Plastic wrap.


I let it get dirty, then send it to you


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## Wagnum (Oct 16, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Mazaki, is that you?


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## Wagnum (Oct 16, 2022)

I.... I mean Mazaki does it at around two minutes into this video


I'm pretty sure this is where I got the idea from


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## r0bz (Oct 16, 2022)

Wagnum said:


> Sometimes when I'm sharpening a large heavy cleaver like a Moritaka when I go to sharpen the backside of the blade I'll flip the knife so the handle is facing up and just grip the knife at the spine so I can still use my dominant hand. I'll take some pics later if I remember


please take some pics 
also why does it help to do it the mazaki method instead of just gripping the handle ?


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## Kawa (Oct 16, 2022)

Its all about being able to put the right pressure at the right places. 
If you can do that with the knive between your toes, do it. It doesn't matter.

Just have an open attitude in trying what works for you. Copying someone and holding to that doesn't expand the horizon.


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## mengwong (Oct 16, 2022)

Kawa said:


> Just have an open attitude in trying what works for you. Copying someone and holding to that doesn't expand the horizon.



The idea of "FAFO" has gotten a bad rap lately, but it's the most basic way of learning things: even before a toddler can ask a question, a baby already knows how to probe the world. Never forget how to be like a little baby. Especially when your hands are already covered in mud.


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## stringer (Oct 16, 2022)

mengwong said:


> The idea of "FAFO" has gotten a bad rap lately, but it's the most basic way of learning things: even before a toddler can ask a question, a baby already knows how to probe the world. Never forget how to be like a little baby. Especially when your hands are already covered in mud.


F*** around and find out?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 16, 2022)

stringer said:


> F*** around and find out?



If only there was more of that happening.


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## Wagnum (Oct 16, 2022)

r0bz said:


> please take some pics
> also why does it help to do it the mazaki method instead of just gripping the handle ?


I posted a video. It helps me because I have a hard time keeping a consistent angle on the backside if I just flip the blade normally and I'm not amazing at switching hands so it allows me to continue using my dominant hand and because cleavers are so blade heavy the weight of the handle not being in your hand is negligible. It works for me but definitely isn't the only way to skin this cat


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## TokushuKnife (Oct 17, 2022)

Wagnum said:


> Sometimes when I'm sharpening a large heavy cleaver like a Moritaka when I go to sharpen the backside of the blade I'll flip the knife so the handle is facing up and just grip the knife at the spine so I can still use my dominant hand. I'll take some pics later if I remember


Nice! Man, whatever you can make work with these beasts. I use the Bob Kramer sweep method on them. Really easy to lose your angle on these otherwise. Interested to see your photos.


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## r0bz (Oct 17, 2022)

TokushuKnife said:


> Nice! Man, whatever you can make work with these beasts. I use the Bob Kramer sweep method on them. Really easy to lose your angle on these otherwise. Interested to see your photos.


what is the bob kramer sweep ?
video


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## TokushuKnife (Oct 17, 2022)

r0bz said:


> what is the bob kramer sweep ?
> video



Bob Kramer Sharpening


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## r0bz (Oct 17, 2022)

TokushuKnife said:


> Bob Kramer Sharpening



I remember seeing it a long time ago
how does he develop a burr if he is doing edge leading and trailing?
the edge leading degrades the burr


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## TokushuKnife (Oct 17, 2022)

r0bz said:


> I remember seeing it a long time ago
> how does he develop a burr if he is doing edge leading and trailing?
> the edge leading degrades the burr


Good question lol. I form the burr in my first sweep pitting pressure on the edge with my fingers like normal. On the other side I do the sweep edge leading and trailing. I assume the original burr is mostly removed, and you can visually account for stock removal on the back. End of the day there is a nice apex and it performs well in my opinion.


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## Wagnum (Oct 23, 2022)

TokushuKnife said:


> Nice! Man, whatever you can make work with these beasts. I use the Bob Kramer sweep method on them. Really easy to lose your angle on these otherwise. Interested to see your photos.


Here's a poorly lit photo but you get the idea. Bonus points if you can guess what's in the takeout container


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## TokushuKnife (Oct 23, 2022)

Wagnum said:


> Here's a poorly lit photo but you get the idea. Bonus points if you can guess what's in the takeout container


Mexican rice with queso


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## Wagnum (Oct 23, 2022)

TokushuKnife said:


> Mexican rice with queso


Chana masala. Unfortunately there's no real Mexican food near me but there are lots of Indian places


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## TokushuKnife (Oct 23, 2022)

Wagnum said:


> Chana masala. Unfortunately there's no real Mexican food near me but there are lots of Indian places


We have no Indian food here so had to shoot my shot lol


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## r0bz (Oct 23, 2022)

Wagnum said:


> Here's a poorly lit photo but you get the idea. Bonus points if you can guess what's in the takeout container


what method do you use to sharpen this beauty ? 
regular flip or switch hands or mazaki method ?


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## Wagnum (Oct 23, 2022)

r0bz said:


> what method do you use to sharpen this beauty ?
> regular flip or switch hands or mazaki method ?


The photo shows how I grip while sharpening the backside. I just grip it normally by the handle on the front


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## Wagnum (Oct 23, 2022)

I should point out that I'm securing it by pushing up with the three fingers that are on the back and locking it in with my thumb and pointer finger


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