# the 0-400 grit segment?



## inferno (Nov 22, 2018)

Whats the best stones in this segment? They all seem to wear pretty fast. 

I have the shapton glass 220, and while its faster than the atoma 400 and dmt C, it also wears quite fast. 
I have thinned/polished 4 knives now with it to make the concave machine ground sides of blades actually flat. 
In that time I think I have lost about 25-30% of the stone I'd say.

Now I'm thinking about the shapton pro 220 since its much thicker. 
Also the pink silicon carbide naniwa 220 "traditional stone"
naniwa "sharpening stone" 220 old super stone
naniwa chosera/pro 400 (i have read that this is very slow)
suehiro cerax 400 alox and 100 SiC
kunsuto 220 SiC (dictum)
Norton india 220 (de-oil it and use with water)
sigma select 2 240.

Some of these stones cost 10€ and some cost 40-50€

Whats the best stones out of these? lowest wear/fastest.
Best bang/buck ratio? At least to me it seems the norton would be good since its like 10€ and I could get 4 of those instead of a sigma select for instance.

anyone with experience with these stones?


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## Nemo (Nov 22, 2018)

A belt grinder works.[emoji6]

Failing that, sandpaper stays pretty flat. Feedback sucks though. I like the way the Kasfly holds sandpaper. It's a pretty versatile thinning "stone".


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## McMan (Nov 22, 2018)

All I can tell you is that the naniwa 220 is nothing to write home about... (The regular one, not the pro/chosera)


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## Nemo (Nov 23, 2018)

I did thin an AUS8 (or similar) monosteel Fujiwarra Kanefusa on Chosera 400. It did the job without needing flattening too often, but it took a while (over an hour IIRC). Maybe because it's alloyed monosteel. 

The thinning I have done on 180 or 240 grit sandpaper seemed MUCH faster. However I note that I have only thinned san-mai knives on sandpaper so far, so I don't know how directly comparable these experiences are.


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## panda (Nov 23, 2018)

i too had poor results with shap glass 220, there's no way it should dish that fast while being so thin!! i gave it away after one use, lol.

cerax 320 good feedback and it's huge so it wont make you cry that it dishes.
chosera400 feedback is amazing but is pretty useless for thinning, only use for sharpening.
sigma 240 is fast and does not dish too fast, but it feels awful.

i'm still in the search for perfect thinning stone, but the cerax is tops i have come across so far.

currently i have been using https://www.aframestokyo.com/gc-green-carborundum-220-rough-grit-whetst220.html
cuts fast, dishes a lot but its huge. my only gripe is that it's very thirsty stone.


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## Panamapeet (Nov 23, 2018)

I’m pretty happy with the jns300 (bit small though), chosera 400, shapton m24 120 grit (needs refreshing a lot but it eats metal) and shapton glass 320 and 500 double thick


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## panda (Nov 23, 2018)

..


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## GorillaGrunt (Nov 23, 2018)

Gesshin 400 is fast, feels great, leaves contrast, but I went through one rather quickly (NB - it was my only coarse stone when I began learning to sharpen, ate up a lot of it thinning a few knives).

Gesshin 320 splash n go is almost as fast and feels almost as good, doesn’t dish as quickly.

I agree with panda on the Chosera, good for sharpening, lasts long (used mine on a whole bunch of knives and it’s still half there) but not a good thinning stone and also on the Sigma 240 - great for grinding out chips, reprofiling, and repairing truly damaged edges, works ridiculously fast, dishes ridiculously fast, feels and sounds abominable. Nevertheless, I’d say this is the stone for doing work more suited too a belt grinder.

Shapton Glass 120 and 220 haven’t been as fast cutting or slow dishing as I had thought; I bought them for thinning and was, if not quite disappointed, not very impressed, though I had high expectations. Adequate.

“Pink brick” type 220 was a good thinning stone - it wasn’t very dish resistant but wasn’t the worst to flatten. Went through it at a moderate speed but it wasn’t very expensive so whatever.

Haven’t tried the Cerax 320, Shapton Pro 220, or JNS 300 but I’d like to.


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## panda (Nov 23, 2018)

i wish chosera would make a 120 grit. i just want a faster cho400, lol.


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## childermass (Nov 23, 2018)

I use Watanabe‘s AI220 for heavy jobs and am really pleased with the stone. It cuts decently fast, leaves surprisingly fine scratches for a stone that coarse and dishes very slow. I was able to thin a 'damaged' knife without flattering even once. 
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/edge-repair.38409/
Unfortunately I have nothing to compare it to, because it’s the only sub 400 stone I used so far.


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## Grunt173 (Nov 23, 2018)

childermass said:


> I use Watanabe‘s AI220 for heavy jobs and am really pleased with the stone. It cuts decently fast, leaves surprisingly fine scratches for a stone that coarse and dishes very slow. I was able to thin a 'damaged' knife without flattering even once.
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/edge-repair.38409/
> Unfortunately I have nothing to compare it to, because it’s the only sub 400 stone I used so far.


Would the Al 220 also be the same as the Shapton Pro 220 like the Al 1000 is like the Shapton Pro 1000 ?


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## panda (Nov 23, 2018)

no, it's a soaker and is much thicker than shap pro. the 2k is probably the same as sp2k though.


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## Grunt173 (Nov 23, 2018)

panda said:


> no, it's a soaker and is much thicker than shap pro. the 2k is probably the same as sp2k though.


Thanks Panda.I was just trying to get it straight because I didn't know for sure.I could have sworn that I read the 1k's were the same but maybe it was the 2k's I read about.


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## childermass (Nov 23, 2018)

panda said:


> no, it's a soaker and is much thicker than shap pro. the 2k is probably the same as sp2k though.



Thanks for saving me here, I would have had no idea [emoji4]


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## galvaude (Nov 23, 2018)

I thin/grind/repair on a imanishi 220 pink brick and a king 300

I sharpen on a DMT coarse 325, if you don’t thin with it and use light pressure it will last a very long time plus I like the feel of diamonds.


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## Ruso (Nov 23, 2018)

Thats an intrsting segment. Nothing really seems to be very nice.
I have shapton pro 320 and its an okay stone. The feedback is not even that horrible. But it feels a little slow for major thinning.
Norton India corse works nice for thinning, but once it’s cloaked its a ***** to clean. And flattening is aint easy as well.


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## galvaude (Nov 23, 2018)

I used quite a few coarse stones super stone 400, chosera 400, glass 500 and to me none were impressive. They wear way too fast and are too slow for anything than light sharpening, IMO they represent poor value and I now much prefer diamond I transition to waterstones after the DMT 325, either chosera 1k or shapton pro 2k. The DMT is flat and will set a very nice and even bevel


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## inferno (Nov 23, 2018)

Ruso said:


> Thats an intrsting segment. Nothing really seems to be very nice.
> I have shapton pro 320 and its an okay stone. The feedback is not even that horrible. But it feels a little slow for major thinning.
> Norton India corse works nice for thinning, but once it’s cloaked its a ***** to clean. And flattening is aint easy as well.



Supposedly the shappro 320 and the 1500 is for carbon steel only. they will glaze and clog up on SS.
I came very close to pulling the trigger on 2 indias today but didn't.


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## inferno (Nov 23, 2018)

I ended up ordering:
1 DMT diaflat 160 with hardcoat tech. (this is total beast supposedly, and will not wear out)
2 shap pro 220 that i will glue together to a double decker.
2 missarka eqv to 800jis (giving one away)
2 missarka eqv to 3k jis (giving one away of this one too)
1 chosera 800 (wanted to see what its all about)

really exited about these new stones. Especially the missarkas. Not much info out on these.


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## inferno (Nov 23, 2018)

galvaude said:


> I used quite a few coarse stones super stone 400, chosera 400, glass 500 and to me none were impressive. They wear way too fast and are too slow for anything than light sharpening, IMO they represent poor value and I now much prefer diamond I transition to waterstones after the DMT 325, either chosera 1k or shapton pro 2k. The DMT is flat and will set a very nice and even bevel



I have the glass 500 double thick. its one of my best stones imo. its so fast and efficient on stubborn r2 for instance. Its too slow for thinning though.

The dmt 325 is too slow too i think. mine has also gone quite smooth. its not very aggressive any longer. good for edges though.
tried the atoma 400 and its good for flattening stones but i feel its quite inefficient in thinning bevels. it has also lost its bite it had when it was new.

So i invested in a diaflat.  we'll see how it goes.

I actually think the glass 220 is good. its fast wearing but its very efficient. faster than the diamonds. So thats why i ot the pro 220ies hoping they will be similar but with more meat.


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## inferno (Nov 23, 2018)

panda said:


> i too had poor results with shap glass 220, there's no way it should dish that fast while being so thin!! i gave it away after one use, lol.
> 
> cerax 320 good feedback and it's huge so it wont make you cry that it dishes.
> chosera400 feedback is amazing but is pretty useless for thinning, only use for sharpening.
> ...



it seems all those SiC stones pretty much dont hold on to water. I have read this about the pink 220ies too. I think they originally were used with oil (nortons). but oil is too messy i think. 

This is what i like about the shaptons, the water seems to like being on top of the stone. some are better than others though.


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## dafox (Nov 23, 2018)

inferno said:


> I ended up ordering:
> 1 DMT diaflat 160 with hardcoat tech. (this is total beast supposedly, and will not wear out)
> 2 shap pro 220 that i will glue together to a double decker.
> 2 missarka eqv to 800jis (giving one away)
> ...



Let us know what you think about the SP 220. Thanks


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## Ruso (Nov 23, 2018)

inferno said:


> Supposedly the shappro 320 and the 1500 is for carbon steel only. they will glaze and clog up on SS.
> I came very close to pulling the trigger on 2 indias today but didn't.


I never heared about 320 being for carbon steel only. It works just fine for any steel when I need to expose fresh metal or set a bevel. 
As for thinning, unless it’s a monosteel balde, the clad is usually pretty soft. So I don’t see why this would be a problem.
But as I said, for thinning I find 320 kind of slow.

Let us know how do you feel abt your new stones, especially the DMT.


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## RDalman (Nov 23, 2018)

stainless - belt grinder
carbon/iron, king 300.
actually for any soft cladding, draw filing could be something to consider if you can clamp up your blade.


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## Grunt173 (Nov 23, 2018)

I have a King Deluxe 300 also and while I haven't used it much to really give a good review.I like that it is splash and go and holds water for such a low grit stone. I like the light gray color of the stone,you can see the swurf and know that you are removing steel.I think it cuts pretty fast but I am not sure how fast it will dish yet, so far,no more then any other stone I have.


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## Nemo (Nov 23, 2018)

Can anyone give an opinion on the Sigma stones in this grit range?


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## galvaude (Nov 23, 2018)

King 300 is slow to dish but also not the fastest in its grit range I like it quite a lot and it’s dirt cheap


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## foody518 (Nov 23, 2018)

I personally end up thinking of the Chosera 400 as more of a nice 600 grit.
The Gesshin 320 and JNS 300 type stones would not use as heavy lifting for thinning, vs cleaning up scratches
Gray King 300 resists dishing decently but doesn't seem to be particularly fast.
I have the Sigma 120 large and the Shapton M24 120 and the Sigma is much faster...provided it is flattened with 36 grit SiC on tile to keep the surface rough. Rinse the surface regularly when using to try and slow down its rate of loading. Flatten with above protocol when cutting speed drops off too much. Flattening with Atoma is not effective - just loads the spent grit in it.
The other 80-120 grit black brick styles I've tried, such as Naniwa's, are much more friable than the Sigma. Cuts aggressively while dishing. I would characterize the pink brick 220 style stones similarly.


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## Benuser (Nov 23, 2018)

If it isn't brand new the Atoma 140 works very well. Light touch, lot of water. The Chosera 400 should be able to deal with the scratches, perhaps with some pressure, but I've used a Shapton 220 in between so far.


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## Qapla' (Nov 23, 2018)

Benuser said:


> If it isn't brand new the Atoma 140 works very well. Light touch, lot of water. The Chosera 400 should be able to deal with the scratches, perhaps with some pressure, but I've used a Shapton 220 in between so far.



Dangit! I've actually been having that sort of problem too (though in my case it's about grinding out high/low spots when honbazuke'ing single-bevel knives) and I'd been finding the Atoma 140 to be frustrating and decided to add a Shapton Kuromaku 140 (currently in transit) to the collection for its even greater coarseness (though presumably lower abrasion-rate given that it's not diamond). Now I wonder if I had just wasted my money and had been using the Atoma 140 wrong all this time (been using too much force?).


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## panda (Nov 23, 2018)

inferno said:


> I ended up ordering:
> 1 DMT diaflat 160 with hardcoat tech. (this is total beast supposedly, and will not wear out)
> 2 shap pro 220 that i will glue together to a double decker.
> 2 missarka eqv to 800jis (giving one away)
> ...


where did you read that the diaflat will not wear out? $200 is a lot to shell out for a thinning stone..


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## inferno (Nov 23, 2018)

good enough for me https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/dmts-dia-flat-takes-a-crazy-beating/

but what actually sold me was that its not the regular crappy nickel plating but instead they employ a real industrial coating like they use for sharpening machine tools, like endmills. so it should last a lot longer than any nickel plated plates.


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## inferno (Nov 23, 2018)

Ruso said:


> I never heared about 320 being for carbon steel only. It works just fine for any steel when I need to expose fresh metal or set a bevel.
> As for thinning, unless it’s a monosteel balde, the clad is usually pretty soft. So I don’t see why this would be a problem.
> But as I said, for thinning I find 320 kind of slow.
> 
> Let us know how do you feel abt your new stones, especially the DMT.



I think shapton themselves used to provide this info in the past. that the 1500 and 320 were for high carbon and all the other ones were for any steel. Or at least the 320 and 1500 were formulated for carbon specifically. And several people on this forum have reported bad performance of the 320 and 1500 on SS i believe. or that it either clogs up or glazes over pretty fast.

They also have the shapton glass "hc" gray stones. And those are supposedly for carbon too. I have the 6k. and its different compared to the hr white stones. its not that it doesn't cut SS but it feels slower and more smeary/rubbery than the white stones and the high grit pros, and it polishes almost like the 12k pro. the regular pros and the white glass don't polish anything at all in my experience. except for the 12k.

can anyone translate this?


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## panda (Nov 23, 2018)

I wanna try the iwood #300 now lol


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## inferno (Nov 24, 2018)

i found this https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...-vs-shapton-glass-very-helpful-to-me.1475477/
and this https://www.fine-tools.com/shapton-instructions.html doesn't really explain much though
and this https://jendeindustries.wordpress.c...ional-vs-glass-stone-scratch-mark-comparison/


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## kkat (Nov 24, 2018)

inferno said:


> I think shapton themselves used to provide this info in the past. that the 1500 and 320 were for high carbon and all the other ones were for any steel. Or at least the 320 and 1500 were formulated for carbon specifically. And several people on this forum have reported bad performance of the 320 and 1500 on SS i believe. or that it either clogs up or glazes over pretty fast.
> 
> They also have the shapton glass "hc" gray stones. And those are supposedly for carbon too. I have the 6k. and its different compared to the hr white stones. its not that it doesn't cut SS but it feels slower and more smeary/rubbery than the white stones and the high grit pros, and it polishes almost like the 12k pro. the regular pros and the white glass don't polish anything at all in my experience. except for the 12k.
> 
> can anyone translate this?


The chart is for Shapton kuromaku stones. The first third or so seems to be the most relevant to members here. Attached is a quick and rough translation. For carbon steels knives I have had good success with the 320/2k/12k progression recommended for petty knives (and Swedish steel). I preferred the the 320 to 220 or 120 because the 320 is easier to deburr. Hope this helps!


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## Ruso (Nov 24, 2018)

Interesting, I will have to do a close comparison next time I sharepen to see if the difference is noticeable on a knife edge.


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## Benuser (Nov 26, 2018)

With really coarse stones I stay away from the very edge. Cut the bevel with a 400-500, and deburr with the next one — say a 800-1000 or so. Rough (split) leather in between may help.


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## inferno (Nov 28, 2018)

well well well





it appears my diaflat diamond plate arrived today. mine is the 160grit/95 micron, the fine one.

I immediately put it to the test.
I had this fiskars crap knife made out of [email protected] hrc (yes its true) laying around that i'm kinda pimping. making fiskars great again!

anyway I have turned the concave ground bevels to flats and now a few days ago i flattened the side of the blade. it took me about 1h to flatten 1 side. I used the atoma 400 but its kinda ineffective for the task. also the dmt C was not very fast. I used the glass 220 instead. much faster.

so today the first thing i did was to begin on the other side of the fiskars. using only the diaflat. I'm about 80% done i'd say. and the total time for that was about 15 minutes. 
---------------------------
compared to an atoma 160 or is it 140. i think the diaflat is probably faster. It also feels much much more aggressive. on the atoma it feels like you are just sliding around on top of the stone, this one feels like its digging in, abrading, like a fresh sandpaper.

it feels more aggressive than the glass 220 and that one is a beast. it also feels more aggressive to the touch, like 100% more kinda.

doing one side of this blade took 1/6 of my glass stone, thats about 10€. more than this knife cost!

i feel the diaflat did lose initial bite doing one side and flattening 1 shapton pro1k and 1 shapton pro 2k (it did the stones very very fast!). but its not like a regular dmt or an atoma where its just sliding on top of it after the first real thinning job. its about 80% as agressive feeling as brand new. i saved a small reference patch of the stone to judge how it wears, i will not use this patch. 

I also used the maximum amount of pressure i could when doing the side of the blade. which is a big nono for atomas and regular dmts. didn't seem to matter here.

the coating is completely different to regular dmts. it looks like the diamonds are deeply embedded in something where on the regular dmts it looks like they are sprinkled on top.

---------------------
i did a sharpening test.
i basically had the fiskars at a zero edge and did 5 swipes, and that created about a 2-3mm bevel, no sh1t.
then i "thinned" it out. thinning it out took about 3 minutes, as you can see its not all gone, next to the handle there is still bevel left. and you can also see how wide that bevel was. i did 70% of the blade, not towards the tip.
----------------------

flattening stones works very very fast.

-------------------------

water seems to disappear very quickly from the stone but on closer inspection there is a thin film of water coating the stone for quite a long time.

-----------------------

it abrades like crazy but you dont see much steel on the stone. it seems to be good at evacuating steel powder, it ends up in quite big piles under the stone.

------------------------

the stone is very large, maybe 2x the area of a dmt/atoma. so its not really expensive if you consider that. dictum charge 200€ for it. cleancut charge 100 for an atoma 140. I have no doubt this one will outlive several atomas or several regular dmts. but we will see in the future. if it sucks i will definitely post it here. make no mistake  

--------------------

i used one side/corner of the stone for about 50% of the sidejob on the fiskars and that side still feels a lot more aggressive than the 220 glass if i touch it. a regular dmt would be very different feeling if it had been used like this. much smoother.
----------------------

I got some pics. 

first we have the fiskars, on the stone. its underexposed to show the grit of the stone, half the stone is wet. and there is water on the blade. you can see in what direction i was grinding the blade, and then i did 1 swipe at a 90degree angle, you can see those scratches in the center of the blade. it was 1 single cycle on the stone. you ca also see that the metal likes to leave the stone with the water.

https://postimg.cc/4mn8hKcd






then we have a closeup of the stone at my maximum magnification ratio of this lens. half wet half dry.
https://postimg.cc/CnRKbHYJ





Verdict after just some brief use is; that its very fast cutting and unlikely to lose that ability quickly.

I'd say so far it seems to be worth it.

its a real beast of a stone that actually feels like its cutting steel unlike atomas.

it feels like a coarser glass 220 to me. and I'd say its faster than a glass 220, maybe not several 100% but maybe 50%.

It also feels faster than atoma 140, if it actually is i dont know since i dont own my own atoma 140 (but i have used a new atoma 140 for some time). it also feels like it has much more bite compared to an atoma.

------------------
yeah that all i have. hope you got wiser. i will report back when i have used and abused it more.


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## Ruso (Nov 29, 2018)

@inferno 
Thank you the detailed write-up. Waiting for a future update!


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## rick alen (Dec 1, 2018)

Since we're on the subject of cf coarse stones, is it normal for a King 300 to develop hair line cracks all over the used surface? One even seams to have penetrated down over a quarter inch.


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## Knife2meatu (Dec 1, 2018)

rick alen said:


> Since we're on the subject of cf coarse stones, is it normal for a King 300 to develop hair line cracks all over the used surface? One even seams to have penetrated down over a quarter inch.


Mine hasn't done anything of the sort, nor have I read anything about this prior to now. On the other hand, I believe the King is a resinoid-binder stone and as such one should expect there to be some risk of cracking if it is dried too quickly after having soaked.


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## Grunt173 (Dec 2, 2018)

rick alen said:


> Since we're on the subject of cf coarse stones, is it normal for a King 300 to develop hair line cracks all over the used surface? One even seams to have penetrated down over a quarter inch.


I am not sure of the type of binder in the King 300 but I have that stone,used only as splash and go and dried very carefully on a rack in a well ventilated area.The stone is practically new as I have only used it a few times.It too has spider web cracks just like those really good Naniwa Pros,that I also have.Ain't it fun? I bought a new roping saddle one time,paid like $1200 for it,darn saddle horn twisted the first time I dallied a steer.I had the same feeling as when my stones cracked.


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## Dave Martell (Dec 2, 2018)

Sandpaper


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## Marek07 (Dec 3, 2018)

Grunt173 said:


> Thanks Panda.I was just trying to get it straight because I didn't know for sure.I could have sworn that I read the 1k's were the same but maybe it was the 2k's I read about.


Late reply but...
I can't speak to the 2k stones but have both the Watanabe #2 Medium AI #1000 and the Shapton Pro 1k and they are the same stone apart from the base. Bloody great stone IMO.



childermass said:


> I use Watanabe‘s AI220 for heavy jobs and am really pleased with the stone. It cuts decently fast, leaves surprisingly fine scratches for a stone that coarse and dishes very slow. I was able to thin a 'damaged' knife without flattering even once.
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/edge-repair.38409/
> Unfortunately I have nothing to compare it to, because it’s the only sub 400 stone I used so far.


Just praised Watanabe's #2 Medium AI above but can't agree on your experience with the AI 220. I find it very thirsty, scratchy - nothing fine about the scratches - and quite quick to dish as well. However, like you I've had very little experience at this grit range.


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## Grunt173 (Dec 3, 2018)

Marek07 said:


> Late reply but...
> I can't speak to the 2k stones but have both the Watanabe #2 Medium AI #1000 and the Shapton Pro 1k and they are the same stone apart from the base. Bloody great stone IMO.
> 
> Just praised Watanabe's #2 Medium AI above but can't agree on your experience with the AI 220. I find it very thirsty, scratchy - nothing fine about the scratches - and quite quick to dish as well. However, like you I've had very little experience at this grit range.


Not to late.You just caught me passing time on the pooter.Thanks for the come back about the AI#1000 and the Shapton Pro 1000.


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## childermass (Dec 3, 2018)

Marek07 said:


> Just praised Watanabe's #2 Medium AI above but can't agree on your experience with the AI 220. I find it very thirsty, scratchy - nothing fine about the scratches - and quite quick to dish as well. However, like you I've had very little experience at this grit range.



Interesting...
Just a thought:
At the time I bought the stone Watanabe statedon his page that this is the second version of this stone and it’s denser and harder than before. Could it be that maybe you have the first version?


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## Marek07 (Dec 3, 2018)

childermass said:


> Interesting...
> Just a thought:
> At the time I bought the stone Watanabe statedon his page that this is the second version of this stone and it’s denser and harder than before. Could it be that maybe you have the first version?


Don't know. Mine was purchased in December '16. When did you get yours?


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## childermass (Dec 3, 2018)

Marek07 said:


> Don't know. Mine was purchased in December '16. When did you get yours?



Got mine last summer, so maybe that’s really the reason for our very different assessment of this stone.


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## Marek07 (Dec 3, 2018)

Grunt173 said:


> Not to late.You just caught me passing time on the pooter.Thanks for the come back about the AI#1000 and the Shapton Pro 1000.


For the record... only got to this point on the backs of others particularly @valgard's reviews.


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## diamond dogs (Dec 13, 2018)

I picked up a huge (12"!) cheap ($8!) double sided sic stone from the aisan grocerie, i think its 120 / 280. man its fast! wears actually not the worst ive seen but i am constantly flattning it and end up with a sink full of gray muck at the end.

Ive gotten tired of using my really worn out and rusted 140 atoma that is now quite slow, but dont have the funds for a dmt hard coat (next stone purchace). on another forum theres someone that raves about the speed of really coarse sic stones, was at the asian grocerie and i saw that stone and figured why not! cant beat the price.

I do a fair amount of chisel and plane blade restoring so the coarse stage is really important as im dealing with flattning some fairly large surfaces. honestly its the stage i really hate and i wish there was an easy fast and effective way to do it that would keep it flat. mabey ill get a sirface grinder here in the near future.....


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## Knife2meatu (Dec 13, 2018)

childermass said:


> I use Watanabe‘s AI220 [...]





Marek07 said:


> [...] experience with the AI 220. I find it very thirsty, scratchy - nothing fine about the scratches - and quite quick to dish as well. [...]



Any ideas as to which manufacturer's stone Watanabe is rebranding as the AI 220?

There's a weird over abundance of pink 220 grit bricks...


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 13, 2018)

joshana anderson said:


> I picked up a huge (12"!) cheap ($8!) double sided sic stone from the aisan grocerie, i think its 120 / 280. man its fast! wears actually not the worst ive seen but i am constantly flattning it and end up with a sink full of gray muck at the end.
> 
> Ive gotten tired of using my really worn out and rusted 140 atoma that is now quite slow, but dont have the funds for a dmt hard coat (next stone purchace). on another forum theres someone that raves about the speed of really coarse sic stones, was at the asian grocerie and i saw that stone and figured why not! cant beat the price.
> 
> I do a fair amount of chisel and plane blade restoring so the coarse stage is really important as im dealing with flattning some fairly large surfaces. honestly its the stage i really hate and i wish there was an easy fast and effective way to do it that would keep it flat. mabey ill get a sirface grinder here in the near future.....



The Ultimate Sandpaper Holder (215mm * 60mm) By Kasfly (CZAR Precision) may be a solution:




http://www.knivesandstones.com/the-ultimate-sandpaper-holder-215mm-60mm-by-kasfly-czar-precision/


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## Matus (Dec 13, 2018)

Knife2meatu said:


> Any ideas as to which manufacturer's stone Watanabe is rebranding as the AI 220?
> 
> There's a weird over abundance of pink 220 grit bricks...



Yes, there is Naniwa, Bester, Gesshin, Watanabe - the list goes on. I would not be surprised if these were made by one maker (I have no proof of that either), but based on some of my discussions, these are similar, nut not identical.


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## diamond dogs (Dec 14, 2018)

> The Ultimate Sandpaper Holder (215mm * 60mm) By Kasfly (CZAR Precision) may be a solution:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thats a cool idea, and looks like a quality product.

i have been thinking of making something verry similar actually but bigger and using a granite referance plate as a base, and able to take roll sandpaper with a holder for the roll.

i guarntee a piece of aluminum that thin with nothing supporting it is going to flex with the kind of pressure I use.


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## diamond dogs (Dec 14, 2018)

how about this one?

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/The-Grinder-Stone-P1655C282.aspx


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## Mucho Bocho (Dec 14, 2018)

joshana anderson said:


> thats a cool idea, and looks like a quality product.
> 
> i have been thinking of making something verry similar actually but bigger and using a granite referance plate as a base, and able to take roll sandpaper with a holder for the roll.
> 
> i guarntee a piece of aluminum that thin with nothing supporting it is going to flex with the kind of pressure I use.



Joshana, I have the Casfly. How can you be so confident if you've never used or handled one of these? Guarantee huh? There's nothing like this on the market and I guarantee that if used as suggested, the platform will not flex.

How much pressure are you using anyway?


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## Nemo (Dec 15, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Joshana, I have the Casfly. How can you be so confident if you've never used or handled one of these? Guarantee huh? There's nothing like this on the market and I guarantee that if used as suggested, the platform will not flex.
> 
> How much pressure are you using anyway?


What Mucho said

+1


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## Marek07 (Dec 16, 2018)

diamond dogs said:


> thats a cool idea, and looks like a quality product.
> 
> i have been thinking of making something verry similar actually but bigger and using a granite referance plate as a base, and able to take roll sandpaper with a holder for the roll.
> 
> i guarntee a piece of aluminum that thin with nothing supporting it is going to flex with the kind of pressure I use.


Have to agree with @Mucho Bocho and @Nemo. The Kasfly is not going to flex in normal use.

You piqued my curiosity though. The plate is ~10mm thick with an area near the brass knurls that is even thinner (~8mm?). I applied the maximum pressure I could imagine if I were thinning a knife. Result? No flex. Took it further and experimented with my son applying as much downward force with his palm in the middle of it. Again, no flex seen by my eyes - I didn't use instruments. One final test... I asked him to put his entire body weight on his palms. He lifted himself off the ground. Still no visible flex. He weighs 82kg - I don't see applying anywhere near that force while working on a knife.

If you ever build anything like it but bigger, let me know. I'd love one.


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## diamond dogs (Dec 16, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Joshana, I have the Casfly. How can you be so confident if you've never used or handled one of these? Guarantee huh? There's nothing like this on the market and I guarantee that if used as suggested, the platform will not flex.
> 
> How much pressure are you using anyway?



i have a piece of 1/2" x 4" cold rolled steel plate that i use sandpaper on and when i first started using it, i had it suspended on 2 points about 10" apart, it flexed enough that i noticed my backs were not coming out flat. i actually positioned it with the (slight) bow facing up and it flexed enough to make the face i was flattning convex. so i assume a thinner narrower piece of aluminum would do the same. unless aluminum is more ridged than steel? seems counter intuitive. perhaps its compressing the sandpaper and not actually flexing?

i use allot of pressure when im flattning, esp for plane irons theres just so much surface that it needs allot of pressure for the abrasive to work it seems. and im impatiant. i really need to invest in a surface grinder.


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## diamond dogs (Dec 16, 2018)

Marek07 said:


> Have to agree with @Mucho Bocho and @Nemo. The Kasfly is not going to flex in normal use.
> 
> You piqued my curiosity though. The plate is ~10mm thick with an area near the brass knurls that is even thinner (~8mm?). I applied the maximum pressure I could imagine if I were thinning a knife. Result? No flex. Took it further and experimented with my son applying as much downward force with his palm in the middle of it. Again, no flex seen by my eyes - I didn't use instruments. One final test... I asked him to put his entire body weight on his palms. He lifted himself off the ground. Still no visible flex. He weighs 82kg - I don't see applying anywhere near that force while working on a knife.
> 
> If you ever build anything like it but bigger, let me know. I'd love one.



so many things in my head to build, so little time and currently dont have the shop set up to do allot of it.

actually a big one i have been thinking about is a motorized horizontal disk sander, with a variable speed foot controll. this way. you could place the object to be sharpened or flattned on the abrasive, get your angle right, and then slowly increse speed with the foot pedal. i think most of the problem with these types of things is that the belt or disk or whatever is already moving when you apply the thing to be ground, and thus you have to either be right on or adjust after contact.


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## diamond dogs (Dec 16, 2018)

Marek07 said:


> Have to agree with @Mucho Bocho and @Nemo. The Kasfly is not going to flex in normal use.
> 
> You piqued my curiosity though. The plate is ~10mm thick with an area near the brass knurls that is even thinner (~8mm?). I applied the maximum pressure I could imagine if I were thinning a knife. Result? No flex. Took it further and experimented with my son applying as much downward force with his palm in the middle of it. Again, no flex seen by my eyes - I didn't use instruments. One final test... I asked him to put his entire body weight on his palms. He lifted himself off the ground. Still no visible flex. He weighs 82kg - I don't see applying anywhere near that force while working on a knife.
> 
> If you ever build anything like it but bigger, let me know. I'd love one.


well its surdier than i thought it would be. but i honestly dont think youd actually see the flex, rather it would show up in an out of flat surface you were working on. would be intresting to put a dial indicator under it and see how much it flexes


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