# power amp on a budget?



## inferno (Mar 13, 2020)

so my trusty behringer ep1500 died a few days ago. it was a straight up copy of a qsc amp down to the board. i think it delivered 2x200 or so W at 8 ohms. i used it bridged for a peerless xls 10 incher 2 ohm (prototype) for about 2-3 years with the fan unhooked  and after maybe 30 minutes it would cut out and it smelled like burnt transistors.

but now for the last 2 years i have been very kind to the amp. i built a new bassbox, now it sees 8 ohms per channel. but still i didn't want that jet plane fan running 24/7. but now last week it just died. dafuq...

and to be honest i dont know if its worth fixing. i basically fried it for several years. and i knew i was doing this.

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so now i'm looking for a new amp. preferably some cheaper but good studio amp. maybe (real) [email protected] ohm or more. preferably no class D/pwm ****. preferably real analog class a/b. i think i can pay 500€ for this. the behringer was like 200€. and the real qsc was about 1 grand. not getting a real qsc though. nor a bryston...

i'm overheating my backup NAD 2x40 watter now fairly easily. so i need beefier than this. maybe 10db hotter.

any brands to look into? what do you recommend?


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## GoodMagic (Mar 13, 2020)

Get an old hafler dh200 or old classe. Tons of good old audio gear around.


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## inferno (Mar 13, 2020)

i dont know if i want to get an old one. if i burn out a new one in like 2 years or less i have warranty.

but yeah of course you are right about used stuff. it cost like 10% of new. no cheap brystons though. 

my brother had a hafler. 

i want the juice so i can play loud. my woofers have the capacity for about 120db or so at 20hz. +-3cm stroke linear, and then double distorted. so they move lots of air. and i run 2 now. the distortion at 20 hz is very low, i think someone measured them at less than 1% at xmax. and he was a real engineer/physicist that actually design speakers for a living. thats good enough for me. 

now i need to feed these babies. they eat electrons.


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## inferno (Mar 13, 2020)

i have an 18 incher at work as backup. a b&c 18ps100. https://bcspeakers.com/en/products/lf-driver/18-0/8/18ps100
but it needs a 250l box. very efficient. i think i can max it with the nad. but 250l is 250l. and now i can play that same spl with only 70l. 
i pay with juice though. and i'd prefer to not build a new box.


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## Bill13 (Mar 13, 2020)

How about a used Bryston? A 20 year warranty is tough to beat, and Audiogon is your friend with the usual caveats.


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## gregfisk (Mar 13, 2020)

I know you said no class D but bang for buck and on your budget you can't beat a Crown XLS1500. It will run circles around your Behringer. You will not burn up the Crown either as they are stable down to 2 ohms and they have a ton of power. I have an old Hafler which I love the sound of and they are also work horses but they are hard to find for the kind of money you want to spend. I'm a hard core audiophile who has been taking a break after a dear friend and fellow audiophile took his own life. That's why I've gotten into knife making. Well that and I retired and needed something else to do.


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## panda (Mar 13, 2020)

Bill13 said:


> How about a used Bryston? A 20 year warranty is tough to beat, and Audiogon is your friend with the usual caveats.


brystons are great but not exactly budget friendly. he's talking about NAD which are like victorinox of amps.


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## Corradobrit1 (Mar 13, 2020)

These are great amps for the money. High current so will drive even inefficient speakers. Used in a lot of commercial settings. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ADA-PF-201...774388?hash=item4214617b34:g:mfYAAOSwX5heL00o


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## inferno (May 29, 2020)

so. i have been running the nad 2x40w for a few months. and while its ok. when i want some real juice it will simply overheat in about 2-3 minutes. i have a feeling the nad can deliver several 100 watts for about 1,5 minutes though. but in the long term over lets say a full tune. maybe i want to hear a full electronic tune (6-10min) at full blast. well then the nad cant deliver. i can deliver for a minute though.

i think i have decieded on getting the exact same amp that the behringer was copied from. but now the real deal.
its just 4x as expensive.... RMX 1450a

yeah gonna get that for the bass. yeah i ran the behringer with the fan cable detached for maybe 4 years and it still lasted 4 years. thats good.
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but now i started to reconsider my monitor situation. to be honest i have never been satisfied with my current monitors. i have the jbl 305's
and while these are good if youre coming from computer speakers. i came from dual 6,5 inchers in each box as monitors. so the jbls i feel they compress the sound when playing loud and they also sound very uninspiring. and dull. i think it has to do with their pwm/class D amps, almost 99% sure it it is.

i mean with my old speakers, the "mains" 2x6,5 inch and alu tweeters. 60 liter enclosures, i could play as loud as i managed to hear it. the speakers were not the limiting factor (with the nad 2x40w amp). and i think i simulated them to like 10db lower than the jbls max spl (yeah right), as "max spl". but these actually play loud without distorting nor compressing. so in reality they play louder since they are clean.
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so now i have to build new mains too. **** that jbl ****. **** it. its not clean/good enough and its definitely not clean enough at high spl.

i'm gonna go with a slit cone scan speak hemp cone woofer (or dual) woofers, and then probably the older scan speak alu dome full size tweeter.
yeah now were ****ing talking.

i bought a measurement mic, a really good one. QTC50 — Earthworks Audio
you can put this mic *inside* the box if you want, i like that.

yeah, well, its gonna be some redecorating going on here. and its gonna kick ass!


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## gregfisk (May 29, 2020)

If you’re talking about getting another class D amp you owe it to yourself to look into the crown xls1500 I mentioned earlier in this thread. They are very stable and and can handle even the heaviest loads. They sound a LOT better than the Behringer amps and best of all.....wait for it..........no fan! They are dirt cheap used since the new version came out a couple of years ago now, the xls1502. My understanding is that they don’t sound any better but I’ve not heard them.


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## WildBoar (May 30, 2020)

What price range are you looking in? I know of a pair of ~25-year-old Bryston amps for sale in the DC area. They are 40 WPC if I remember correctly, but bridged (used as monoblocks) they are 100 WPC. They are listed for $600 for the pair. One has a slightly hissing transistor that is reportedly just slightly audible if no music is playing. Bryston is great to deal with if someone wanted to send the amps in for overall inspection and any needed minor repairs or updating. I sent in a 21-year-old 4BST a couple years ago that got fried by power spikes and they did the repairs and updated it to as new as they could (one step below the current model at the time) for about $750, including shipping. And that was when the US dollar was a bit weaker compared to the Canadian dollar.


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## turko (Jun 15, 2020)

Check out Monopices Monolith series. Word is they're made by ATI and are solid.


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## BazookaJoe (Jun 16, 2020)

Not sure why you don't want a class D. I've done a lot of research lately when I needed to replace an amp I had that failed. The class d technology has come a long way. This amp tested very good and for the price per watt, can't be beat.









Behringer A800 Stereo Amplifier Review


This is a review and detailed measurements of the Behringer A800 Class D Stereo Amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The A800 costs US $299 including free shipping from multiple sites. The member who loaned it me has done a youtube video of it which you can see by clicking on this...




www.audiosciencereview.com













Home


Behringer A800 800 Watt Professional Reference Class Studio Power AmplifierThe Behringer A800 professional grade reference power amplifier delivers unparalleled, efficient sonic performance without a steep price tag. Producing stunningly accurate audio reproduction while remaining noise free...




www.parts-express.com


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 8, 2020)

inferno said:


> so. i have been running the nad 2x40w for a few months. and while its ok. when i want some real juice it will simply overheat in about 2-3 minutes. i have a feeling the nad can deliver several 100 watts for about 1,5 minutes though. but in the long term over lets say a full tune. maybe i want to hear a full electronic tune (6-10min) at full blast. well then the nad cant deliver. i can deliver for a minute though.
> 
> i think i have decieded on getting the exact same amp that the behringer was copied from. but now the real deal.
> its just 4x as expensive.... RMX 1450a
> ...



Why don't you get yourself a half decent powered subwoofer, and off-load the bottom-end (low frequencies <100Hz) to THAT unit. Sure beats putting up with"burnt-transistor smell",,, or high-spl for "a few minutes". Subs are omni-directional, and you can use a single sub, placed anywhere in the room, without directionality. You can also increase your spl (sound-pressure level) by placing it in half-space, or quarter-space, or eighth-space location, etc. without the need for a more powerful amp. Efficiency is the name of the game.

Look around, and see if you can find a Yorkville Sound NX700P or LS 700P,,, or if you really wanna go nuts on SPL, a Yorkville LS801P.


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## inferno (Aug 8, 2020)

I am running a separate subwoofer. and separate active crossover. is has 2 10 inchers. back to back. and the drivers are good. there is 25-30mm xmax or similar on tap linear one way. they are quite efficient in box, in room. i get 2 reflections so that is 6db extra.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 8, 2020)

inferno said:


> I am running a separate subwoofer. and separate active crossover. is has 2 10 inchers. back to back. and the drivers are good. there is 25-30mm xmax or similar on tap linear one way. they are quite efficient in box, in room. i get 2 reflections so that is 6db extra.



Bottom line though,,, your present rig is simply not doing it for you. The low-end (100Hz and below) is what's sucking all your "juice",,, HF's (high frequencies) require a LOT less power. Your cross-over won't help here. Use your NAD for the tops ((40w left /40w right) for your smaller speakers.

With a powered sub-woofer, you can run a line-level signal to the sub, which will have its' own active cross-over and power-amp. The sub will probably have a hi-pass filter, which will allow you to run everything below 100Hz,,, or 120Hz, etc, by the subs' built-in power-amp. There will also be a line-out on the sub, and everything above 100Hz, will go to your tops (run by your 2x40w NAD).

What's the application? Are you doing this for home listening? Studio work? Live-sound for bands, etc?

Don't bridge your NAD.


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## inferno (Aug 8, 2020)

i have active monitors, 3way xover but running it 2way now, and then an amp and then a passive sub.
basically i fried my good amp. and now i have to use the nad for the sub. which it can do. for a while.
sometimes i think my whole house is a studio.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 8, 2020)

inferno said:


> i have active monitors, 3way xover but running it 2way now, and then an amp and then a passive sub.
> basically i fried my good amp. and now i have to use the nad for the sub. which it can do. for a while.
> sometimes i think my whole house is a studio.



I'm going to go back to the start of this thread and re-read it. I should have read it all in the first place,,,,, my bad.

That said, everything I said so far, applies.

When you say you have "active monitors", what exactly are they?

Also, in post #15, just above, you said you're getting "2 reflections for a 6dB gain". Can you clarify? Are they on stands away from a wall/floor/or ceiling (full-space)? Are they close to the floor(1/2 space)? on the floor next to a wall (1/4 space)? in a corner near a floor or ceiling (1/8 space)? If you're listening at home for example, each reduction in space will give you roughly a 3db gain step-up. That said,,,, if your active monitors are simply firing toward a wall,,,,, then "reflections" can be a bad thing.(time distortion) Depends on how reflective and how large the "room" is.

Also, your Behringer EP1500, is a "Live Sound" amp,,,, that's partially why the fan is so loud. In Live sound applications and environments, fan noise is virtually irrelevent.

I'm curious,,,, where precisely was the "burnt smell" coming from? If it's coming from your speakers, you may have fried the voice-coils. If it's from the amp,,, you probably fried some capacitors. Doesn't your amp have a fuse?


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## inferno (Aug 10, 2020)

well the sub is on the floor, next to a wall. so that gives me some boost.

i have jbl 305s. they kinda suck. 

the burnt smell came from the transistors in the poweramp. it usually smelled like that shortly before the thermal shutdown circuits kicked in. that was the signal to connect the fan again. the amp have a fuse and i have not investigated further. the amp it still turns on, it just doesn't provide any power.


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## Lars (Aug 10, 2020)

Please don't listen to studio monitors for pleasure. They are not designed for that, but for analytical purposes. 
Also, please revisit your opinion of Class D. It can be wonderful when done right, for example the stuff by Bruno Putzeys and Hypex.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 10, 2020)

Hypex is good enough for most, you probably want to look at some high efficiency speakers so you can use lower powered amps.
Currently playing with a vintage amp probably not capable of more than 20W p Ch using 4 13" high efficiency broad band speakers (think Klangfilm) in an infinite baffle, 2 Ohm or so per channel, easily loud enough and low distortion and no need for filtering.


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## Lars (Aug 10, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> Hypex is good enough for most


Why only most?


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## MarcelNL (Aug 10, 2020)

haha, because it's horses for courses, as with knives ;-)


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## Lars (Aug 10, 2020)

So you don’t like flawless audio reproduction?


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## MarcelNL (Aug 10, 2020)

Lars said:


> So you don’t like flawless audio reproduction?


I'm not sure I understand what you mean, it's not as if the Hypex amps are the non plus ultra in performance?


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 10, 2020)

inferno said:


> well the sub is on the floor, next to a wall. so that gives me some boost.
> 
> i have jbl 305s. they kinda suck.
> 
> the burnt smell came from the transistors in the poweramp. it usually smelled like that shortly before the thermal shutdown circuits kicked in. that was the signal to connect the fan again. the amp have a fuse and i have not investigated further. the amp it still turns on, it just doesn't provide any power.



Inferno, in order to help, I need clear and concise information. I'm still not clear what your set-up is. All I have so far, is your JBL monitors (JBL 305s),,, and your power-amp model (Behringer EP1500).

You've mentioned 2 x 10" speakers back-to-back,,,,, what is that??? Is that what you're using for a subwoofer??? Are those 10" drivers in an enclosure??? You've also mentioned another speaker with 6" speaker with an aluminum tweeter (?????) You've also mentioned a 3-way cross-over that you're currently using as a 2-way. Is that an active or passive cross-over? What's the brand and model?

Cause and Effect:

Bottom line here, you're basically experiencing a type of distortion known as "listener fatigue". This is the root cause of why you're having issues. Basically, it goes like this: your ears and brain have an expectation of hearing sound in a "natural" and predictable balance. The brain "knows from experience" when that "balance" is not "correct",,, the listener makes a "correction" usually by turning up the "missing frequencies or overall volume",,,, and for most home-audio set-ups, that's usually to get the bottom end.(Frequencies below 120 Hz,,, but more typically, below 100 Hz. You then try to "boost" that bass-end by turning up the volume,,,, often resulting in overdriving the mains,,, and adding even more distortion (clipping). When you over-drive, the protection circuits will kick in, and shut-down occurs. (hopefully just the fuses,, sometimes component thermal overload protection,,, or output-stage components such as capacitors). When those fail,,, you overload the drivers, and can burn the voice-coils in your speakers.

Now, getting back to your specific components,,, your JBL305s are powered monitors (85 w in "marketing-speak"). They're most likely 20w "continuous"/ 85w total peak. So far, those are the only components I;ve been able to find info on, aside from your power-amp. Please fill in the blanks. I need specific brand-names and model numbers of your 10" speakers,,, and the enclosures,,,, as well as your cross-over. Same goes for the 6" speakers.

Now, I'm no EE (electrical engineer),,, but I do know a few who might be able to help. I ran pro-sound rigs for a few years (Live sound applications for "Live" performance,,,, bands,,, musicians, etc. I have over 18,000 watts of pro-audio gear here,,, six mixers, analog and digital,,,, up to 24 channels each, and over 70 mic's for various "Live" or studio-sound applications. I have roughly 16 powered (active) speakers, and can handle crowds up to roughly 300 spectators,,, outdoors... with plenty of "thump". I also have three or four studio-rigs.


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## Lars (Aug 10, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you mean, it's not as if the Hypex amps are the non plus ultra in performance?


Well, I happen to think they are..


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## juice (Aug 11, 2020)

inferno said:


> i want the juice


I'm here, baby!


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 11, 2020)

juice said:


> I'm here, baby!


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## gregfisk (Aug 11, 2020)

Bruno is doing a lot of great things for class D but for me, and I own one of his amps I enjoy my Hafler more. Now one thing is for sure, class D amps are crystal clear and pretty much distortion free but for me they are just too clinical. I have a very clean set up with tubes in my dac. It has a volume control so I don’t have a preamp in the chain. I run a Mac mini as my source. The op is looking for a lot of power with a light budget which is why I suggested class D. You can’t beat the bang for buck but I don’t think they are the holy grail.


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## panda (Aug 11, 2020)

Lars said:


> Please don't listen to studio monitors for pleasure. They are not designed for that, but for analytical purposes.
> Also, please revisit your opinion of Class D. It can be wonderful when done right, for example the stuff by Bruno Putzeys and Hypex.


i beg to differ, color the sound upstream to your liking and let the amp/speaker just be a vehicle


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

Hypex don’t sound clinical to me, they just amplify the signal whithout artifacts which is what an amplifier should do imo. 
The recording is already made to sound the way it does by the recording/mixing/mastering process and thats what I wan’t to hear.


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## gregfisk (Aug 11, 2020)

Lars said:


> Hypex don’t sound clinical to me, they just amplify the signal whithout artifacts which is what an amplifier should do imo.
> The recording is already made to sound the way it does by the recording/mixing/mastering process and thats what I wan’t to hear.


When I listen to my system with any of my class D amps and compare that to my Hafler amp I much prefer the latter. For me there is a lack of soul if you will or depth or body, it’s hard to explain. I’m not drawn in as much and the vocals and instruments don’t sound as real or as full bodied, like an intimate live show would sound. The clarity is there in spades but there is definitely something missing. At least that’s how it is for me.


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

panda said:


> i beg to differ


Good! You like what you like.


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> When I listen to my system with any of my class D amps and compare that to my Hafler amp I much prefer the latter. For me there is a lack of soul if you will or depth or body, it’s hard to explain. I’m not drawn in as much and the vocals and instruments don’t sound as real or as full bodied, like an intimate live show would sound. The clarity is there in spades but there is definitely something missing. At least that’s how it is for me.


That sounds like audiophile bs to me, but I respect your opinion.


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

i dont like class d for high freq. over lets say 2-300hz. i dont think it sounds as good as A or A/B amps. lots of reasons but i'm not going to get any class d amp for main speakers or new monitors with class d amp in them. the only reason the put class d in stuff today is that the power supplies gets cheaper and lighter/smaller than linear ones, since big transformers cost lots of money. but in practice they dont get any cheaper if they do all the shielding and filtering and such that is required to get good quality.

i try to avoid pwm powersupplies as much as i can. it spreads lots of high amplitude hf crap both in wires and through the air. very easy to see on a spectrum analyzer (built in in most DAWs).


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## panda (Aug 11, 2020)

ICEpower class d amps sound pretty good, such as a rowland 102
but i'm all about self powered monitors, because you know, synergy. atc scm-10 for example.


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

inferno said:


> i dont like class d for high freq. over lets say 2-300hz. i dont think it sounds as good as A or A/B amps. lots of reasons but i'm not going to get any class d amp for main speakers or new monitors with class d amp in them. the only reason the put class d in stuff today is that the power supplies gets cheaper and lighter/smaller than linear ones, since big transformers cost lots of money. but in practice they dont get any cheaper if they do all the shielding and filtering and such that is required to get good quality.
> 
> i try to avoid pwm powersupplies as much as i can. it spreads lots of high amplitude hf crap both in wires and through the air. very easy to see on a spectrum analyzer (built in in most DAWs).


300hz is low mids, not hi freq. 
And my class D amp has a very capable linear psu.


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

the thing i have noticed with class d is that compared to class a/b when you turn up the volume i feel a/b gets better the louder you play basically (until it starts distorting), but not so with class d, sure it gets louder, but i cant really say it sounds better the louder you play. i dont know why this is. or if its possible to measure it. 

for me personally i turn the volume up because it sounds better, and if i dont get that, but only a louder sound then whats the point?


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## panda (Aug 11, 2020)

that just means AB is not efficient, it needs more juice to be at its best. class d is already at its peak regardless of volume


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

inferno said:


> the thing i have noticed with class d is that compared to class a/b when you turn up the volume i feel a/b gets better the louder you play basically (until it starts distorting), but not so with class d, sure it gets louder, but i cant really say it sounds better the louder you play. i dont know why this is. or if its possible to measure it.
> 
> for me personally i turn the volume up because it sounds better, and if i dont get that, but only a louder sound then whats the point?


Now you are just trolling, right?


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

Lars said:


> 300hz is low mids, not hi freq.
> And my class D amp has a very capable linear psu.



its where voices start. 
most ("consumer") class d stuff does not have linear psus.
as i said i'm not gonna go all in and spend lots of money on this. getting 2-3k€ amps and such is not on the table.
and i'm not really interested in building them myself either. even if its a complete kit. there is still many hours of testing and measuring.


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## panda (Aug 11, 2020)

i used to be into audiophile gear, then one day i saw through the ******** and realized pro audio sounds just as good if not better for fraction of the cost. the home use stuff youre just paying for a fancy case like that rowland i mentioned.

i use small jbl active bookshelves and got them used from a recording studio for $500. which replaced an atc standmount and a coda class ab amp.


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

..


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

panda said:


> that just means AB is not efficient, it needs more juice to be at its best. class d is already at its peak regardless of volume



kinda doubt that. from what i have seen class d can not really handle high freqs as good as AB, more distortion and such. at least it was like this a couple of years ago. and many many people measured the stuff. 

and i'm not even sure all things _can_ be measured. our brains filter out much information.

there are some things that you really can't point a finger at and say *that* is what i'm hearing straight away. but in the long run, over weeks you notice that it just doesn't sound very nice.


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

inferno said:


> its where voices start.
> most ("consumer") class d stuff does not have linear psus.
> as i said i'm not gonna go all in and spend lots of money on this. getting 2-3k€ amps and such is not on the table.
> and i'm not really interested in building them myself either. even if its a complete kit. there is still many hours of testing and measuring.


Trolling it is, then.


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

panda said:


> i used to be into audiophile gear, then one day i saw through the ******** and realized pro audio sounds just as good if not better for fraction of the cost. the home use stuff youre just paying for a fancy case like that rowland i mentioned.
> 
> i use small jbl active bookshelves and got them used from a recording studio for $500. which replaced an atc standmount and a coda class ab amp.



i have never been in to audiophile gear. i believe in measurements and science. thats why i got the behringer amp in the first place. 
look at the specs page here. RMX 1450a
this is really good performance.


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

Lars said:


> Trolling it is, then.



what are you talking about??
just because you like class d stuff and i dont like class d?? is that trolling?
am i trolling my own thread?

if you like class d i think you should use class d.
but since i dont like class d, why should i get class d?
i already have class d stuff, that i'm not happy with.


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## WildBoar (Aug 11, 2020)

No need to defend yourself. You can hear and have other products in the chain that allow you to hear, or you can't. If you can't, you will save loads of $$$.


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

inferno said:


> kinda doubt that. from what i have seen class d can not really handle high freqs as good as AB, more distortion and such. at least it was like this a couple of years ago. and many many people measured the stuff.


Yes, we all know about the oscillation @ 400khz. You can see it on your oscilloscope and so what?
That is so far out of the audible range, that it is completely irrelevant and totally inaudible.


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

Damn, took the bait again.


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

here is the specs for my current monitors guys  its even worse than i thought.

electrical distortion for the amps:
0.2% THD @ 1kHz / 2.83VRMS output;
<1% THD @ 1kHz, full rated output

whole system:
<10% THD  at maximum output (this is not uncommon for small speakers imo)
max spl cont 94dB
max spl peak 108dB (C weighted, measured with noise)

-------------------

the old behringer amp: 

_Power per Channel, Stereo Mode (both channels driven)_i have this model8Ω, FTC 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.1% tdD185 W260 W450 W800 (650**) W1050 W8Ω, EIA 1 kHz, 0.1% tdD200 W300 W500 W850 W1100 W4Ω, FTC 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.1% tdD280 W400 W650 W1300 W1600 W4Ω, EIA 1 kHz, 0.1% tdD300 W500 W (0.5% tdD)800 W1400 W1800 W2Ω, FTC 20 Hz–20 kHz, 1% tdD–––1600 W2000 W2Ω, EIA 1 kHz, 1% tdD430 W700 W1200 W2000 W2500 W
 


Frequency Response20 Hz–20 kHz: +0/-1 dB. -3 dB points: 5 Hz and 50 kHz (LF filter bybassed, 8Ω)
 


Distortion (SMPTE-IM) (intermodulation distortion)< 0.01%

Distortion (typical)
20 Hz–20 kHz, 10 dB below rated power
1 kHz and below, full rated power
< 0.03% tdD, 4Ω and 8Ω
< 0.03% tdD, 4Ω and 8Ω


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## MarcelNL (Aug 11, 2020)

as an outsider and the risk of being accused of the same I get the faint impression that the accusation of trolling is being used only because someone does not agree with you Lars. Am I correct (similar to your response when I said that Hypex is not the non plus ultra)?
Oscillations on a scope at 400K may be irrelevant yet they can be relevant as they may cause TIM and al that, no way to dismiss them like that just because they are out of the audible spectrum for us humans.

No offense, I am a strong believer in 'to each his own', it's just that I feel as strongly that all deserve the same.

I'm with WildBoar on this one, be happy if you don't hear the difference, it gets costly real fast...no different with knives or anything else.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 11, 2020)

your first Watt is what makes the most difference and is what you use most, anything over that IMO just means you need higher efficiency designs or more speakers/surface area to get more oomph.


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> as an outsider and the risk of being accused of the same I get the faint impression that the accusation of trolling is being used only because someone does not agree with you Lars. Am I correct (similar to your response when I said that Hypex is not the non plus ultra)?
> Oscillations on a scope at 400K may be irrelevant yet they can be relevant as they may cause TIM and al that, no way to dismiss them like that just because they are out of the audible spectrum for us humans.
> 
> No offense, I am a strong believer in 'to each his own', it's just that I feel as strongly that all deserve the same.
> ...


I don’t think that’s fair and I’m only calling trolling because @inferno is talking out of his ass to a point that seems only to attempt to stir up emotions. 

You offer valid(and Interresting) points that adds to the topic and that’s great!


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 11, 2020)

This entire thread has become pointless. Pointless meandering and lack of specific information,,,, what a great way to "trouble-shoot". We don't even know what components are involved, and we're already at the end of page 2.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 11, 2020)

Lars said:


> I don’t think that’s fair and I’m only calling trolling because @inferno is talking out of his ass to a point that seems only to attempt to stir up emotions.
> 
> You offer valid(and Interresting) points that adds to the topic and that’s great!


fair enough, I somehow still do not agree that saying inferno is talking from an alternative orifice helps an open conversation. I DO get his point, my best friend, who is DEEP into what you call audiophile BS (you DO NOT want to KNOW what we do to improve SQ) uses a cheap class D amp and it does sound good on his vintage Klangfilm setup.
However, the times he has A tube amp in workin order (his are usually in some state of improvement and not in working order most of the time) things just sounded better, more slam, better weight, more speed, less fatigue, more open, better time aligned/more realistic in 3D. Nothing you can attribute to measurements, as a tube amp typically measures like ****, yet it;s there.

just keep in mind transistors were only invented for convenience, using less space and less power, NOT for better SQ.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 11, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> This entire thread has become pointless. Pointless meandering and lack of specific information,,,, what a great way to "trouble-shoot". We don't even know what components are involved, and we're already at the end of page 2.




I read in the first post:

so my trusty *behringer ep1500* died a few days ago. it was a straight up copy of a qsc amp down to the board. i think it delivered 2x200 or so W at 8 ohms. i used it bridged for a* peerless xls 10 incher 2 ohm (prototype)* for about 2-3 years with the fan unhooke


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> fair enough, I somehow still do not agree that saying inferno is talking from an alternative orifice helps an open conversation. I DO get his point, my best friend, who is DEEP into what you call audiophile BS (you DO NOT want to KNOW what we do to improve SQ) uses a cheap class D amp and it does sound good on his vintage Klangfilm setup.
> However, the times he has A tube amp in workin order (his are usually in some state of improvement and not in working order most of the time) things just sounded better, more slam, better weight, more speed, less fatigue, more open, better time aligned/more realistic in 3D. Nothing you can attribute to measurements, as a tube amp typically measures like ****, yet it;s there.
> 
> just keep in mind transistors were only invented for convenience, using less space and less power, NOT for better SQ.


Thanks! You would be suprised how many tl072 and lm5534 we use before you get to play around with your tubes.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 11, 2020)

so low end only, 2 Ohm. My thought would be to indeed use a class D power amp to deliver enough current, OR rethink the whole setup and go for something like a horn system that you can power using flea powered amps.(provided you have space to trade for power). What enclosure do the Peerless live in, what T-S parameters do they have?


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## MarcelNL (Aug 11, 2020)

Lars said:


> Thanks! You would be suprised how many tl072 and lm5234 we use before you get to play around with your tubes.


be my guest, just don't ask or expect me to do the same


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> be my guest, just don't ask or expect me to do the same


I don’t get it.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 11, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> I read in the first post:
> 
> so my trusty *behringer ep1500* died a few days ago. it was a straight up copy of a qsc amp down to the board. i think it delivered 2x200 or so W at 8 ohms. i used it bridged for a* peerless xls 10 incher 2 ohm (prototype)* for about 2-3 years with the fan unhooke



Which tells me nothing, other than the fact the raw driver is inefficient (83dB/2.83vrms/1m). Where do the "mains" come into play here? Why is a 6" speaker mentioned? Why is the JBL305s mentioned? Why is a 3-way crossover mentioned? Why are two 10" back-to-back mentioned? What's driving what?


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

Lars said:


> I don’t think that’s fair and I’m only calling trolling because @inferno is talking out of his ass to a point that seems only to attempt to stir up emotions.



REALLY?? maybe you read too much into stuff you read on the internet??


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Which tells me nothing, other than the fact the raw driver is inefficient (83dB/2.83vrms/1m). Where do the "mains" come into play here? Why is a 6" speaker mentioned? Why is the JBL305s mentioned? Why is a 3-way crossover mentioned? What's driving what?



the peerless is dead since long. melted voice coil. 

now i'm running 2x of these. https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/manuals/293-656-tc-sounds-3369-00-manual-43417.pdf
was driven by the behringer, until it died. now driven by my nad.

the 305s are up for replacement too. do you know any monitors that dont use class d amps, and dont cost over a grand/pair?


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## Lars (Aug 11, 2020)

inferno said:


> REALLY?? maybe you read too much into stuff you read on the internet??


I think you are right!


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## MarcelNL (Aug 11, 2020)

I would not trust those specs one bit, power handling and Xmax does not say anything about power output, 85W/m is not a lot...any woofer or broadband speaker that does 88 doubles the SPL. 3 more dB double SPL again...look for something well over 94dB.Watt/m


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

the specs are correct. sensitivity does not say everything for bass boxes imo. i'm trying to get a simulation program up and running. but since i'm not currenctly on windows i cant get it to work. i'll se if i can do an online one.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 11, 2020)

inferno said:


> the peerless is dead since long. melted voice coil.
> 
> now i'm running 2x of these. https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/manuals/293-656-tc-sounds-3369-00-manual-43417.pdf
> was driven by the behringer, until it died. now driven by my nad.
> ...



OK,,, so now we're getting somewhere.

Bottom line Inferno,,, I think you need to take a cold hard look and reassess your needs. Do you "really" need "studio monitors"??? Forget the "specs bull**it" from consumer-audio components, and let your ears guide you. I get the impression you need a rig that can provide consistent high spl as you walk around the house. Studio monitors are "near-field" devices,,,,, not meant to be listened to from a distance. I also get the impression you want to be "rocked" from time to time, and you simply won't get there without a decent "tight sounding" (not muddy) subwoofer.

I wish I could recommend some kick-a$$ studio monitors, but it's been quite a while since I looked at that consumer-audio world. I have some large control-room hard-wired bi-amped monitors from Spendor Audio, plus a pair of Adam A7's which I haven't even opened the boxes. I've also got some B&W 110's, and Monitor Audio 8" monitors, plus a pair of Morduant-Short Signifers. I've also got a couple of sets of computer-monitors (Altec-Lansing and Logitech surround-sound system). I've also got a Velodyne ULD-15 subs that sounded VERY good with some of those set-ups,,, 

These days, when I wanna hear some serious house-rockin' thump, I go to my pro-audio gear, and that's basically powered mains with horn-loaded tweeters, paired with a good sub. My P/A small subs are 15" Yorkville Sound LS-700P's, and my larger 18" subs are 1500w Yorkville LS-801P's. (sensitivity on those is 105dB/1w/1m). Those are way too powerful for the house. I can't really go beyond level 2, or the dishes are bouncing in the kitchen cupboards. I used those primarily for outdoor gigs. The smaller LS-700P will easily rock a small blues-bar with 800-100 spectators, and are tight/ clean/punchy subs.

The Logitech system I mentioned earlier, was a system I bought at Costco, to pair with a new iMac that I had bought for watching on-line movies at the time. It's a small surround-sound rig with 4 mains, and a sub. As I recall, it was marketed as a 400w system. It actually gets pretty loud and sounds decent even when we're sitting outside on the patio, and the speakers are inside the house. I think I paid roughly $400. Canadian($300.U'S.) on-sale, maybe less, over 10-15 years ago.

My P/A mains are all Yorkville, and I have six NX-55P's,, two U15P's,,,, and four EF-500P's. I NEVER use any of those mains without their matching subs, otherwise you're removing a full octave of bottom-end. These subs have excellent blending control for mating to a variety of tops.

That said, I think you need to decide what type of system you're shooting for. Will a near-field set-up satisfy your desire for house-rockin' thump? You can't beat a decent active P/A set-up for listening at a distance, with enough thump to re-awaken the teenager inside you. Get a decent EQ, and you're off and running. I'm pretty happy with my dBX 1231 EQ's.

If you want to trouble-shoot your Behringer EP-1500, you might want to check out Harmony Central Live Sound and Production forum. I believe that forum is still in operation,,, but almost completely in archive mode nowadays. There's PLENTY of guys with blown Behringer gear that show up there, looking for help. Look specifically for posts by "Aged Horse",,, and Don Boomer. Both those guys are EE's, and they've run shows for major National acts. When I was last there, Don Boomer was designing gear for Line6, and Andy (Aged Horse) had just moved to designing gear for Mesa-Boogie.

FWIW, my favourite small studio monitors are by Klein & Hummel,,,, but there's no point in going further there. ($$$$$)


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## inferno (Aug 11, 2020)

the reason i run studio monitors is that i live quite compact, and they take up little space.
i run synths and drum machines through the system and also all playback from computer gets routed through it.

the sub is very tight. its a closed box with 2 of the woofer above in it. 70-ish L, almost full packed with wool. with "room gain" i should have a pretty linear response down to subsonics. i run the voice coils in series so 4ohm per woofer.

I'm consider just buying a cheap new behringer amp, and the only cheap ones they make now are the class d's, and thats ok with me for bass duties.

klein and hummel you say. yeah those are one of the best i guess. i have been thinking about the KH 120 A G EU
1200€ for a pair.

and it says those have a/b amps. and the limiters seems to be bypassable. and thats good for me since i would be highpassing them from my dbx crossover anyway. thats one of the probelms with the jbls i have. even if i filter out all the bass before them they still wont play any louder than they do in full range.

i would like a 6,5 incher really. since you cant fool physics. it would be nice if i could find a monitor that could match the subwoofer in max spl. but i'm guessing i would have to need 2x6,5 inchers per box for that in reality.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 11, 2020)

The Klein & Hummel model 0 300 is what I was referring to. Here's an old review dating back to 2007. Back then, those were $6,995./pair.









Field Test: Klein + Hummel O 300 Studio Monitors


ACCURATE, REVEALING, TRI-AMPED NEAR-FIELDS WITH ROOM CORRECTION



www.mixonline.com





Now, I'm probably the LAST guy you'd want to talk to about loudspeaker design. I'd have a hard time spotting the difference between a transistor,,,, and a Twisted Sister. I also stopped running P/A gigs at least 10-12 years ago,,, and I'm just not up to date on what's out there these days. I believe Klein & Hummel were bought out over a decade ago,,, and they may be labelled Neumann nowadays. I believe they're distributed by Sennheiser now. Things change fast sometime.

I just got back from shopping at Costco a few minutes ago, so I'll relax a bit, then I'll dig around tonight and see what's currently available.

Where are you located Inferno? Looks like you're in Europe??? I'll try to see what's available in your market. There's a ton of great gear available in Europe,,, but most of the stuff I'm familiar with, is the commercial-audio gear,,, line arrays and such,,, Nexo,,, L'Acoustic,,D+B Audiotechnik, etc. Brands you've probably never heard of. Those are mega-buck systems, designed primarily for large venues. That said,,, some are very compact, and they're fully scalable modular designs. Nexo for example, has some superb compact monitors that are great for smaller shows. The D+B Audiotechnik Q7 is a breathtaking performer. The active boxes tend to sound best.


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## juice (Aug 11, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> I'd have a hard time spotting the difference between a transistor,,,, and a Twisted Sister.


Perms. Perms is the obvious difference.


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## M1k3 (Aug 11, 2020)

juice said:


> Perms. Perms is the obvious difference.


But not the makeup?


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## juice (Aug 11, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> But not the makeup?


Dee Snyder wore makeup?


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## Luftmensch (Aug 11, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Use your NAD for the tops ((40w left /40w right) for your smaller speakers.
> 
> With a powered sub-woofer, you can run a line-level signal to the sub, which will have its' own active cross-over and power-amp. The sub will probably have a hi-pass filter, which will allow you to run everything below 100Hz,,, or 120Hz, etc, by the subs' built-in power-amp. There will also be a line-out on the sub, and everything above 100Hz, will go to your tops (run by your 2x40w NAD).



+1

I have this setup... similar to the extent that am using a NAD!! Albeit 50W~60W per channel.

For twenty years I had been running the NAD through a pair of mid sized bookshelf speakers. I was pleased as punch when I got the setup and there was no way in hell I could have afforded anything better at the time. The setup was hardly audiophile but in no way prevented me from enjoying the music I played - bar one aspect: the bass. The bookshelves were pretty anaemic at producing some bass punch.

With more cash in pocket and more space, five years ago I decided to add two active subwoofers to offload the low frequencies. I do this by running the line level through a miniDAC which acts both as an active crossover and flattens the room response. It splits the signal to the NAD and each of the subwoofers.

It is nice. Again, not audiophile but meh... I don't have the energy for that! I always had a long-term plan to upgrade the bookshelves to get better mids. That will probably be stalled for a decade . Currently I don't even run the subs (yet the cross-over is still splitting the input)! Our walls are paper thin (seriously, you can hear conversations through them). Good headphones would be a better fit for my current circumstances....



I suffer from paralysis by analysis. Fortunately I am also aware that once I make a decision, I usually cease to care. That means unless the purchase is something I truly care about, the decision is not so important within a range of tolerance. I am trying to be more mindful of this to make my life easier. If you are not completely obsessed by the amps/speakers and just want a decent solution, chose the decent and easy solution. Maybe a new Behringer is the answer?


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## juice (Aug 11, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Good headphones would be a better fit for my current circumstances....


Yeah, but they're not cheap, either, even used. But a good headphone setup is pretty damn awesome. Mine is really good, but not great, but trying to emulate it via speakers would be very difficult here in the apartment. (I'd rate my headphone setup ahead of my speaker setup by a decent margin, but mostly it's the speakers that get used.)



Luftmensch said:


> I suffer from paralysis by analysis. Fortunately I am also aware that once I make a decision, I usually cease to care. That means unless the purchase is something I truly care about, the decision is not so important within a range of tolerance. I am trying to be more mindful of this to make my life easier.


Me too. Mostly, it doesn't work.


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## M1k3 (Aug 12, 2020)

juice said:


> Dee Snyder wore makeup?


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> +1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
A single sub, properly cross-overed, is really all you need; they're omni-directional, so it doesn't really matter where you place it in the room. Nice part about a decent sub is,, even at very low volume,,, the extended frequency response allows you to feel the "weight" of the orchestra. It's really noticeable with symphony orchestras.




Luftmensch said:


> Good headphones would be a better fit for my current circumstances....



Yeah, good headphones are a joy to have, but there can be lots to consider when buying. I tend to prefer open-backed for casual listening, and you can still hear what's going on in the room. Closed-back headphones are great for isolation monitoring while you're in a noisy environment. I have three sets, a very old Stax electrostatic (notoriously unstable,,,, but what a sound); I have a pair of Sennheiser HD-pro for mixing/monitoring on a sound-stage, and a pair of AKG Reference K-702.


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## juice (Aug 12, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> A single sub, properly cross-overed, is really all you need; they're omni-directional, so it doesn't really matter where you place it in the room. Nice part about a decent sub is,, even at very low volume,,, the extended frequency response allows you to feel the "weight"


+1


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

I should add that I stay away from those "extended-bass" muddy-sounding crapola headphones that you so often see these days. Hyped-up boom-boxes. I like a full frequency response, but the bottom end has to be tight/clean/natural, and punchy.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

While we're at it,,, here's a few fun tunes to listen to on a dynamic system.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 12, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> A single sub, properly cross-overed, is really all you need



But why stop there ?

There are some arguments for stereo-subs... I think there is subtle directionality. I cross them over high. Whether I am hearing the attenuated higher frequencies coming through the crossover or some out-of-phase effect.... I dunno? Maybe it is just a psychological trick! Whatever the truth, it is going way beyond what is sufficient. There is no doubt, I never needed it.

It is hard not to sound like a wanker when talking about sound systems... but I would say on certain tracks, stereo-subs can make the room sound 'bigger' than it is. I am normally not a soundtrack kind of person, but the Interstellar soundtrack has some pretty ludicrous low frequency content thanks to the organ:



It fills the room (or at least used to... thin walls ).






Bobby2shots said:


> there can be lots to consider when buying. I tend to prefer open-backed for casual listening, and you can still hear what's going on in the room. Closed-back headphones are great for isolation monitoring while you're in a noisy environment. I have three sets, a very old Stax electrostatic (notoriously unstable,,,, but what a sound); I have a pair of Sennheiser HD-pro for mixing/monitoring on a sound-stage, and a pair of AKG Reference K-702.



I hear ya.... This IS one of those decisions I couldn't let go of. I am not interested in turning headphones into a hobby. I wanted to make a single decent decision once and be done with it. This is ridiculous, but I am pretty sure if I read enough reviews and gained an aggregate opinion on a selection of well regarded headphones, i'd be content choosing the one that I thought suited my tastes. I know that is counter to the very good advice of "listen and see what you like" - but that is not so easy here. Further, I dont doubt I would be happy with any headphones above a particular quality (particularly if I wasnt comparing it to anything else!). Long story, short: poured over too many reviews, detected an internal confirmation bias and got fatigued by the whole process. Several times now I have lost countless hours trying to make a decision and given up


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## MarcelNL (Aug 12, 2020)

if your sub crosses over higher than let's say 100Hz and it is not filtered very steeply directionality may come into play. Phase shifts and reflections can play funny tricks with our mind, keep in mind that all our ears are 'designed' for is to pinpoint sounds using volume and phase differences. I like my soundsystems phase linear, AKA with minimal or no filtering at all to preserve an as natural soundstage as possible, long tinkering with systems eventually led me to high efficiency broadband speakers. 

some pointers is this article; All You Wanted To Know About Subwoofers


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## LostHighway (Aug 12, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> A single sub, properly cross-overed, is really all you need; they're omni-directional, so it doesn't really matter where you place it in the room.



None of this matches my experience with subwoofers in high end audio systems. Yes, they are more-or-less omni-directional in the lowest octaves but they become increasingly directional as frequencies increase. I can't remember ever hearing an entirely successful speaker plus subwoofer(s) system, regardless of crossover slopes, where the low pass frequency hinge was higher than 60Hz. Main speakers with greater bass extension are almost always easier to to integrate with subs than small monitors. Mini monitors which are often -3dB at 80Hz are IME almost impossible to integrate well with subwoofers. The directionality or lack of it does not mean that positioning doesn't matter. The subwoofers are not operating in a free air environment and distance to room boundaries definitely does alter in-room response and excitation of room nodes. Multiple subs allow the user to smooth in-room response by creating multiple peak-to-trough patterns relative to the listening position.


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

for good sub integration the i have read the monitors need to have a -3dB point at least 1 octave below the crossover for sub/sat, but preferably 2 octaves below! basically both speakers should be linear below and above the crossover point by a good margin, since the monitors have a slope all on their own 6dB/oct or more/weirder for vented monitors (extended shelf and so on).

also many home systems have these tiny 3 inch woofer and then thats gonna be mated to a 10 incher... well if anyone have simulated the bass capacity of any 3 or 4 incher you will quickly find out you would need to cross these over at like 300hz or so for them to be able to match the spl (they run out of xmax very fast when they play bass). so when you play 80dB spl it all sounds good, but at like 90-95dB you have a 5-10dB hole from 100-300hz or so 

the specs of my jbls are 

Frequency Response (±3 dB)49Hz – 20kHzFrequency Response (-10dB)43Hz – 24kHz
most music dont have all that much output below like 40hz, but they sound extremely anemic on their own vs with the sub even at lowish volume. and if you play loud the response would change to something similar to 85hz-20khz -3dB, thats just how it works when you dont have unlimited xmax or cone area.


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> if your sub crosses over higher than let's say 100Hz and it is not filtered very steeply directionality may come into play. Phase shifts and reflections can play funny tricks with our mind, keep in mind that all our ears are 'designed' for is to pinpoint sounds using volume and phase differences. I like my soundsystems phase linear, AKA with minimal or no filtering at all to preserve an as natural soundstage as possible, long tinkering with systems eventually led me to high efficiency broadband speakers.
> 
> some pointers is this article; All You Wanted To Know About Subwoofers



i'm not so sure linear phase "works". if you record something there are coils/caps in the mics and the micamps, the mixers, the input stages of the soundcard/recorder. then its going to be processed 10000 times over with both inboard and outboard gear. so when its all in a file or on a disc, then the phase has taken so many twist and turns it doesn't really matter anymore.

also i have oscillators in my system that have adjustable phase, +-180deg, sweepable, or you can put an lfo on there or even fm it up to 30khz. and imo phase shift/distortion/modulation is a very subtle effect at least compared to am/fm. now combining fm with pd and am then you can get really whacky sounds. but pm by itself does not change the sound very much. even at the source. imo.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> also many home systems have these tiny 3 inch woofer and then thats gonna be mated to a 10 incher... well if anyone have simulated the bass capacity of any 3 or 4 incher you will quickly find out you would need to cross these over at like 300hz or so for them to be able to match the spl (they run out of xmax very fast when they play bass). so when you play 80dB spl it all sounds good, but at like 90-95dB you have a 5-10dB hole from 100-300hz or so
> 
> the specs of my jbls are
> 
> ...


very true observations, keep in mind that 3dB less means half the perceived volume, 6dB is half of that etcetera.
Matching the (undistorted) volume between monitors and sub is difficult enough even wen leaving the whole time issue aside.

I beg to differ on the effects of phase not being audible -time travel differentiation is what the brain does best when processing sound- there are good ways to record sound and bad ways...on a messed up recording it does matter less or not at all, with a good recording it makes a world of difference when you can play it back with as little as possible added phase distortions.

BTW; another nice bass heavy track, beware ; check your volume before playing!


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> if your sub crosses over higher than let's say 100Hz and it is not filtered very steeply directionality may come into play.



Bang on. Another contributor is cabinet resonance.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

LostHighway said:


> None of this matches my experience with subwoofers in high end audio systems. Yes, they are more-or-less omni-directional in the lowest octaves but they become increasingly directional as frequencies increase. I can't remember ever hearing an entirely successful speaker plus subwoofer(s) system, regardless of crossover slopes, where the low pass frequency hinge was higher than 60Hz. Main speakers with greater bass extension are almost always easier to to integrate with subs than small monitors. Mini monitors which are often -3dB at 80Hz are IME almost impossible to integrate well with subwoofers. The directionality or lack of it does not mean that positioning doesn't matter. The subwoofers are not operating in a free air environment and distance to room boundaries definitely does alter in-room response and excitation of room nodes. Multiple subs allow the user to smooth in-room response by creating multiple peak-to-trough patterns relative to the listening position.



Go to any large show, and watch how the sound-guys set up their rigs. You'll virtually ALWAYS find a multiple subs clustered to perform as a single unit. The reason;,,,,, to eliminate phase cancellation. You may sometimes see a L+R flown array system, with separate L+R sub-woofer banks,,,, but that's done to create or reduce power-alleys in specific zones. FWIW, pro-rigs ALWAYS run mono,,,, not stereo.

I'm not clear on what you're talking about insofar as integrating small monitors to a sub,,, it just has to be done properly. You most certainly do NOT want to cross-over at 60Hz, Don't believe that consumer-audio bullsh*t that the small monitors are down only 3dB at 85Hz. A well-constructed (non-resonant) sub, should be voiced to match the tops. Crossover point should be roughly 100Hz- 120Hz. You can't go by "specs",,,, you have to trust your ears.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 12, 2020)

trust your ears is sound advice ;-)

A while ago a friend of me made a subwoofer array (long story inolving 10 or so 10inch drivers p channel) and found he could not control the time travel differences between the woofers for each channel good enough to make the thing sing... it did ROCK however.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> for good sub integration the i have read the monitors need to have a -3dB point at least 1 octave below the crossover for sub/sat, but preferably 2 octaves below! basically both speakers should be linear below and above the crossover point by a good margin, since the monitors have a slope all on their own 6dB/oct or more/weirder for vented monitors (extended shelf and so on).
> 
> also many home systems have these tiny 3 inch woofer and then thats gonna be mated to a 10 incher... well if anyone have simulated the bass capacity of any 3 or 4 incher you will quickly find out you would need to cross these over at like 300hz or so for them to be able to match the spl (they run out of xmax very fast when they play bass). so when you play 80dB spl it all sounds good, but at like 90-95dB you have a 5-10dB hole from 100-300hz or so
> 
> ...



Those "3" and 4" sub-drivers can/DO work,,,, but not as a "per unit" set-up. There are pro rigs that have large bass flat-panels, with hundreds of small 3"-4" and even smaller drivers mounted to single panels. Those multiple tiny drivers "combine" to act as a single large driver. I'll find a link and repost it.

Regarding "specs",,,,, you just simply can NOT trust consumer-audio gear "specs". I don't care what they "claim",,,,.. Unless you have complete details on how their gear was tested,,,, with actual "measured" specs,,, at precisely what power-level and distance the tests were conducted,,,, and over what duration,,,,.. Any vendor can claim certain "specs",,,, but the consumer has NO idea if those specs even remotely apply. Are they giving you the "specs" for a raw driiver??? Are they giving you the "design specs"??? It's just a bloody minefield out there, and because it falls into the "consumer-audio" domain, they're free to claim whatever they want,,,, and it's simply put down to "marketing".


----------



## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> trust your ears is sound advice ;-)
> 
> A while ago a friend of me made a subwoofer array (long story inolving 10 or so 10inch drivers p channel) and found he could not control the time travel differences between the woofers for each channel good enough to make the thing sing... it did ROCK however.



Yeah,,, time alignment issue. Probably sounded loud, but muddy as heck.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> for good sub integration the i have read the monitors need to have a -3dB point at least 1 octave below the crossover for sub/sat, but preferably 2 octaves below! basically both speakers should be linear below and above the crossover point by a good margin, since the monitors have a slope all on their own 6dB/oct or more/weirder for vented monitors (extended shelf and so on).
> 
> also many home systems have these tiny 3 inch woofer and then thats gonna be mated to a 10 incher... well if anyone have simulated the bass capacity of any 3 or 4 incher you will quickly find out you would need to cross these over at like 300hz or so for them to be able to match the spl (they run out of xmax very fast when they play bass). so when you play 80dB spl it all sounds good, but at like 90-95dB you have a 5-10dB hole from 100-300hz or so
> 
> ...



Look into Butterworth filters.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 12, 2020)

Using good quality speakers helps, their T-S parameters actually make sense, check out Scan Speak or Dynaudio units at a DIY shop, you'd be surprised how many famous speaker brands rely on their products.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> Using good quality speakers helps, their T-S parameters actually make sense, check out Scan Speak or Dynaudio units at a DIY shop, you'd be surprised how many famous speaker brands rely on their products.



I'm glad you mentioned DynAudio. They've been making well-reputed small monitors forever it seems.

Focal is another brand that some might want to look into.


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

i simulated my subwoofer. 2 woofers. 70l. 800w in like the behringer had.
i also simulated it with 2000w input.

i will only show spl and cone excursion at the stated powers. at 32mm one way we reach the mechanical limit and the voice coil hits the pole piece 
800w first. now remember that with typical in room gain that slope is almost a flat line with sealed boxes.










the 2k


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> Using good quality speakers helps, their T-S parameters actually make sense, check out Scan Speak or Dynaudio units at a DIY shop, you'd be surprised how many famous speaker brands rely on their products.



thinking about using scan speak drivers and building a pair of monitors. probably the "slit cone" 6,5 inchers, and the older alu dome tweeter D2904/980000
i have a mic to measure with and soundcards and all i need. need more knowhow though.


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

now i'm gonna simulate an 18 incher that i also happen to have. gonna do it in the manufacturer recommended box. its a good 18 incher, made for deep bass unlike most of them. not top of the line stuff like phl / jblpro / electrovoice but 1 step below that.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> now i'm gonna simulate an 18 incher that i also happen to have. gonna do it in the manufacturer recommended box. its a good 18 incher, made for deep bass unlike most of them. not top of the line stuff like phl / jblpro / electrovoice but 1 step below that.



Are you thinking of using that B&C driver you posted earlier? B&C make some phenomenal sub drivers.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> thinking about using scan speak drivers and building a pair of monitors. probably the "slit cone" 6,5 inchers, and the older alu dome tweeter D2904/980000
> i have a mic to measure with and soundcards and all i need. need more knowhow though.


Although I've considered DynAudio in the past, I never took the plunge because I found their tweeter to be a bit too bright for my taste, and even a tad strident with certain installations. Good speaker,,,just not my taste. Last time I looked though, would be well over 20 years ago.


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## LostHighway (Aug 12, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Go to any large show, and watch how the sound-guys set up their rigs. You'll virtually ALWAYS find a multiple subs clustered to perform as a single unit. The reason;,,,,, to eliminate phase cancellation. You may sometimes see a L+R flown array system, with separate L+R sub-woofer banks,,,, but that's done to create or reduce power-alleys in specific zones. FWIW, pro-rigs ALWAYS run mono,,,, not stereo.
> 
> I'm not clear on what you're talking about insofar as integrating small monitors to a sub,,, it just has to be done properly. You most certainly do NOT want to cross-over at 60Hz, Don't believe that consumer-audio bullsh*t that the small monitors are down only 3dB at 85Hz. A well-constructed (non-resonant) sub, should be voiced to match the tops. Crossover point should be roughly 100Hz- 120Hz. You can't go by "specs",,,, you have to trust your ears.



Of course you have to trust your ears, that is a given. Home audio and large venue sound reinforcement are really two different disciplines. Yes, the physics remains the same but most home systems are operating with a small fraction of the total room volume and aren't trying to achieve 100dB+ SPLs. How did you arrive at 100 to 120Hz crossover points as being some sort of universal optimum? At that high a crossover point you're going to need multiple subwoofers because you're asking them to not just be subwoofers but to also play midbass into lower midrange. frequencies. Humans can localize sound down to 80Hz - 100Hz.


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Are you thinking of using that B&C driver you posted earlier? B&C make some phenomenal sub drivers.



yes


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

so i simulated the 18sp100 vs the the box i already have. the makers recomended vented box is 250l tuned to 29hz or similar.
now they dont actually state the xmech, for this one. but if i read their faq it says: above xmax the distortion kinda makes the driver unusable.
"xvar" is 8mm.

_The “X var” value reported in our data (generally after the traditional “Xmax” value) is measured this way. Beyond this excursion limit, the magnetic field seen by the voice coil, or the total suspension compliance, or both, drops to less than 50% of their small signal value, producing high distortion levels, strong variations from small signal behavior and power compression. The new technique yields different results from the standard measurement based on THD. B&C Speakers believes that this added information gives a more accurate and reliable description on loudspeakers behavior in actual operating conditions._

while the 10 inchers are made for extreme excursion. way beyond the linear xmax. the magnet system, voice coil, surround, spider etc its all optimized for this.

--------

so first i tried inputting 800w into both systems (the 18incher is 8ohm so the behringer bridged would output this).
as we can see the 18 incher will be louder. quite a lot actually. but i have a feeling it will simply hit the pole pieces at 12mm max stroke. so this is not realistic.











then we lower the power input so the excursion is 10mm, this might be a realistic xmech for this driver. then is takes 570w to get there. we might still need to highpass filter this at 20hz as we can see.









and then if we simply follow what the maker of the 18incher thinks its "the best" we can limit the system to 8mm excursion.
and then it looks like this.

here i have marked the lin xmax of the 10 inch box, 18mm @ 800w input. xmax vs xmax, linear.
in the the case of the 10 inchers it really doesn't matter there is no extreme increase of distortion unlike the 18 incher just beacuse you exceed xmax.
at 28mm or so i would start to worry about distortion 









conclusion: well the 18 incher will probably beat the dual 10 incher box no matter how you put it. BUT it has a linear response quite far down so it will in reality be somewhat boomy sounding in a regular room due to room gain.

it also takes 250Liters to build it. vs 70L.

the driver is much more efficient. 1,7% vs 0,2% for the 10 inchers.

i went for the smaller size! but i think the tradeoff is quite good anyway. 116dB in room down to like 10Hz is not that bad. i could have done a lot worse here i feel.


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

LostHighway said:


> most home systems are operating with a small fraction of the total room volume and aren't trying to achieve 100dB+ SPLs.



i am  i actually need/demand more like 110dB, my synths need it. they crave it. they told me. they feel i'm not worthy of using them unless they can sing as loud as they want.

and to be honest there is a shitton of difference playing analog synths from the source at 90dB and 100dB. these things are alive!! and after a few conversions and whatnot all the magic is gone. unfortunately.


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## LostHighway (Aug 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> i am  i actually need/demand more like 110dB, my synths need it. they crave it. they told me. they feel i'm not worthy of using them unless they can sing as loud as they want.
> 
> and to be honest there is a shitton of difference playing analog synths from the source at 90dB and 100dB. these things are alive!! and after a few conversions and whatnot all the magic is gone. unfortunately.



I value my hearing. In any situation where I'm likely to encounter sustained levels over 95dB I wear hearing protection. I know far too many musicians and a few construction workers with tinnitus and either notched hearing and/or limited ability to hear much above 5kHz.


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

LostHighway said:


> I value my hearing. In any situation where I'm likely to encounter sustained levels over 95dB I wear hearing protection. I know far too many musicians and a few construction workers with tinnitus and either notched hearing and/or limited ability to hear much above 5kHz.



i always wear hearing protection, safety glasses, and gloves at work. has been since i was 15. always.

i dont play continually at high levels. but when i want to hear something LOUD. i want it to be loud. really loud. and clean.


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

ok guys i simulated a 5 inch woofer. or actually 2 of them to simulate a pair of consumer speakers/monitors. and just overlaid them in the other simulations.
3dB is twice as loud, but 10dB is 10 times as loud. its logarithmic.

and the woofer i chose was a random 5 incher from SEAS. seas is a good brand. actually very good. i guess this woofer is better than everything one would find in speakers under lets say 2-3 grand. its probably much much better than my jbl woofers!




__





H1216-08 CA15RLY


THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS




www.seas.no











so here it is.
at max power for the 2 5inchers at 60 watts each we get this response and spl. look at the difference at 30hz. its like 30dB and thats 1000times less!




then we have cone excursion at 120w. the 5 inchers dont reach xmech but they do reach xmax and exceed it and will distort by quite much maybe ever 10-15% thd. who knows. xmax is 5mm. 10mm is xmech and i marked this with a white cross.





then we look at the maximum theoretical spl (vs frequency). now this is not really a problem with the 10 and 18 inchers. but with the 5 inchers you will encounter this limit quite often. just as i did with my jbl 5 inchers. remember these drivers are much better than the jbls. and most likely 10x as expensive.
this is calculated off the linear xmax and long term power handling. and as we can see its almost a difference of 25dB at 30hz. for the 10 inch box vs the 5 inchers. that like 100times as loud at this frequency!


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

LostHighway said:


> Of course you have to trust your ears, that is a given. Home audio and large venue sound reinforcement are really two different disciplines. Yes, the physics remains the same but most home systems are operating with a small fraction of the total room volume and aren't trying to achieve 100dB+ SPLs. How did you arrive at 100 to 120Hz crossover points as being some sort of universal optimum? At that high a crossover point you're going to need multiple subwoofers because you're asking them to not just be subwoofers but to also play midbass into lower midrange. frequencies. Humans can localize sound down to 80Hz - 100Hz.



It's not just about the speakers,,,, it's about the instruments and voices that are being projected through those speakers. A kick-drum for example will generate a couple of primary frequencies,,, one is the "thump" of the kick-drum, which is generally around 75-80 Hz, and that's best handled by the sub. The other tone, which sound guys generally refer to as the "click", is actually more of a "snap", and that's from the foot-pedal beater striking the kick-drum. That occurs typically around 4KHz.

!00Hz is generally used as a standard, but of course it varies with the speakers involved,,,, but not by much.

By the way, here are a couple of test-tone generators, 100Hz, and 1 kHz.





I'll let you decide where voices and instruments fit best within that zone. FWIW, it's generally accepted that the human voice, as well as the acoustic guitar, fall into the 100Hz-1kHz region. There are exceptions where a baritone will get into the mid 80's.









Different frequencies of musical instrument | Music mixing, Recorder music, Music theory


Feb 21, 2014 - Different frequencies of musical instrument




www.pinterest.ca


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

i have 3 dedicated modules just for kicks. actually i make kicks from scratch with like 5-6 modules. its not really money efficient. though. 
need an osc, 2 envelopes, 1 amp, 1 trigger.

trhis is the tune where i have triggered the thermal circuits the most times. 
i dont know what but its full range. its a replica of the older moog modular. and just now it kinda killed my nad. 
its the best synth demo in the world.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> i have 3 dedicated modules just for kicks. actually i make kicks from scratch with like 5-6 modules. its not really money efficient. though.
> need an osc, 2 envelopes, 1 amp, 1 trigger.
> 
> trhis is the tune where i have triggered the thermal circuits the most times.
> ...




77Hz at the 0:17 mark????


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

no the amps die a few mins in  they dont like this tune at high volume i can tell you that.


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## panda (Aug 12, 2020)

idgaf about measurements, it comes down to how it sounds at the end. just like measuring specs of a knife means jack diddly squat.


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## inferno (Aug 12, 2020)

well if you ask me a pair of good monitors should be withing +-2dB 100-20khz and really good stuff is within 1 dB. and you probsbly have to build those yourself. and they should be fairly linear off axis too. because the off axis sound will sooner or later hit your ears too.

THD distortion should be low. preferably below 0,5% 100-20k

and THEN we can talk about the esoterics imo. how it "sounds". but unless they can fulfill this criteria then its not even worth trying imo. because then its 100% guaranteed it wont sound "good".


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> well if you ask me a pair of good monitors should be withing +-2dB 100-20khz and really good stuff is within 1 dB. and you probsbly have to build those yourself. and they should be fairly linear off axis too. because the off axis sound will sooner or later hit your ears too.
> 
> THD distortion should be low. preferably below 0,5% 100-20k
> 
> and THEN we can talk about the esoterics imo. how it "sounds". but unless they can fulfill this criteria then its not even worth trying imo. because then its 100% guaranteed it wont sound "good".



Sorry to say this, but,,, you're dreaming in technicolor. At what amplitude do you expect to get those results? How does the sound-field change when you leave that "ideal" listening spot in the room and walk around the house as you stated earlier? What's your desired *CONTINUOUS SPL*? What will be the duty-cycle? How much will the components that deliver those results cost? I sincerely wish you luck though.


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## WildBoar (Aug 12, 2020)

+-2dB 100-20khz measured where? And in what setting? And set up how?

Do you think you can build a pair of speakers that will measure this well when tested at an appropriate listening distance? Do the drivers even exist? Are these measurements to be obtained in an anechoic chamber? Do you have access to one? Can I invest in your company?????


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## panda (Aug 13, 2020)

there's also the huge variable of different tastes. some gear is biased toward tonal color, others are better at dynamics. i fall into strictly the dynamics ladder. a bit of a 'flat earther' in the audio world.


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## inferno (Aug 13, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> +-2dB 100-20khz measured where? And in what setting? And set up how?
> 
> Do you think you can build a pair of speakers that will measure this well when tested at an appropriate listening distance? Do the drivers even exist? Are these measurements to be obtained in an anechoic chamber? Do you have access to one? Can I invest in your company?????



on axis of course 1m. 
this is for the speakers only of course.

i dont think* I *can build speakers like this but i have seens 20-30 builds at least that does this easily. measured. 

now in the end it doesnt really matter since you will have to tweak the speakers anyway to your liking. so some people might roll off the highs, more than 2-3dB, or raise the lows or whatever. but that "tone control" is done after its all finished in the most critical passband. from like 500-10k 
you dont want any peaks or valleys in this passband. as flat as possible. the rest is up for discussion. and it depends on your room and preferences. 

you can build this with almost any drivers. the filters might become overly complex though. since you will have to compensate for all the nonlinearities. 
and the less of them there are the less complex it gets. 

you can measure this in ananechoic chamber or a "gated measurment" that is you only measure for short time before the reflections have time to reach the mic. this is how 99,9% of all speakers are measured. you can do this at home, down to maybe 2-300hz it will be accurate. and below that you can put the mic inside the speaker and measure. then you will have to merge these measurements. 

if you can do measurements out in a field or something with less reflecting stuff you can get cleaner measurements. 

i have never built filters and measured on my own but i have been present in the lab of one major speaker company when we measured and built filters for and older speaker i built. so i know how the process works. and have seen it first hand.


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## inferno (Aug 13, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Sorry to say this, but,,, you're dreaming in technicolor. At what amplitude do you expect to get those results? How does the sound-field change when you leave that "ideal" listening spot in the room and walk around the house as you stated earlier? What's your desired *CONTINUOUS SPL*? What will be the duty-cycle? How much will the components that deliver those results cost? I sincerely wish you luck though.



the reference is 94dB spl or 1 Pascal pressure usually. it also happens to be 1N/square meter. and thats a good start imo.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 13, 2020)

Inferno, You seem quite happy playing with your synth,,, so why not approach your end-goal in steps? Work on a mono set-up for the synth for now,,,, get your amp fixed, install a quieter fan.and stay away from 2-ohm operation. If you did that, your new fan would probably rarely need to kick in. There's no point in going stereo on the synth. You'll reduce costs for now, and you can add on later. And,,,, stay away from running that Behringer in bridge mode. Get a more efficient speaker if you need the volume.

P.S. I admire your tenacity.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 13, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Crossover point should be roughly 100Hz- 120Hz.



This is what I did... 120Hz.



MarcelNL said:


> if your sub crosses over higher than let's say 100Hz and it is not filtered very steeply directionality may come into play. Phase shifts and reflections can play funny tricks with our mind, keep in mind that all our ears are 'designed' for is to pinpoint sounds using volume and phase differences.





MarcelNL said:


> I beg to differ on the effects of phase not being audible -time travel differentiation is what the brain does best when processing sound-



Clearly at the higher frequencies >80Hz directionality starts to come into play. I'd say below that, phase gives more of a concert hall effect? I dunno... like I say, its not that I can hear where it is. But as opposed to one, I felt the room some how sounded larger. Again... could be psychological



inferno said:


> THD distortion should be low.



I guess this is one of the benefits of multiple subs. If not stereo subs, dual-subs can help lower distortion in the sub-bass. Each would be driving half as hard. With stereo-subs, when you cross-over high you are offloading bass from the woofers to the subwoofers. The woofers wont have to move as much and will have lower distortion. Probably not so necessary when you have a large mains. Whilst not tiny, mine are two-way and only have 5" woofers - so crossing over high seemed to be sensible.






Bobby2shots said:


> let your ears guide you





MarcelNL said:


> trust your ears is sound advice ;-)





panda said:


> idgaf about measurements



I almost entirely agree. It was a lot of fun using the minDAC and REW to apply the active crosser and room treatment. Seeing the frequency response on the screen, mucking around with the filters and listening to music allowed me to fairly quickly correlate what I was hearing with something quantifiable and visual. I played around for a bit for fun and then tried to get the response response as flat as I could. From there I tweak equaliser settings to my taste.

But yeah... you aught to be moving towards something your ears enjoy!


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## MarcelNL (Aug 13, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Inferno, You seem quite happy playing with your synth,,, so why not approach your end-goal in steps? Work on a mono set-up for the synth for now,,,, get your amp fixed, install a quieter fan.and stay away from 2-ohm operation. If you did that, your new fan would probably rarely need to kick in. There's no point in going stereo on the synth. You'll reduce costs for now, and you can add on later. And,,,, stay away from running that Behringer in bridge mode. Get a more efficient speaker if you need the volume.
> 
> P.S. I admire your tenacity.



That is some solid advice if you ask me, and on two accounts; first -stay away from that Behringer in bridged mode, it likely killed your previous speakers due to clipping and is likley to do so again (the power rating is inflated through the roof IMO) and secondly; look for high efficiency speakers with more surface area if you need more SPL.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 13, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> That is some solid advice if you ask me, and on two accounts; first -stay away from that Behringer in bridged mode, it likely killed your previous speakers due to clipping and is likley to do so again (the power rating is inflated through the roof IMO) and secondly; look for high efficiency speakers with more surface area if you need more SPL.



Thanks MarcelNL,

I should have added that doubling the amp output, only gives you a theoretical 3dB gain,,, barely perceptible,, minus the thermal losses, and we've all seen how that's worked out so far. A more efficient speaker is definitely in order here.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 13, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> This is what I did... 120Hz.
> 
> Let your ears be the best guide there. Fine-tune to see what sounds best. With small monitors, you could try up to 160 HZ if need be. A lot could depend on the resonance of your monitor cabinets.
> 
> ...


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## inferno (Aug 13, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Thanks MarcelNL,
> 
> I should have added that doubling the amp output, only gives you a theoretical 3dB gain,,, barely perceptible,, minus the thermal losses, and we've all seen how that's worked out so far. A more efficient speaker is definitely in order here.



while the high efficiency speaker might be nice. its also occupies more than 3 times the volume than the one i built. this is how it works. its is efficient because it uses a very big enclosure. 

the one i built is actually high efficiency if you compare it pretty much all home/studio subs. 
just look at this one KH 870 G
its a 4000€ sub! mine was very cost efficient compared to this one too.

*Maximum SPL at 1m (Red: 3% THD, Blue: 1% THD)*


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 13, 2020)

inferno said:


> while the high efficiency speaker might be nice. its also occupies more than 3 times the volume than the one i built. this is how it works. its is efficient because it uses a very big enclosure.
> 
> the one i built is actually high efficiency if you compare it pretty much all home/studio subs.
> just look at this one KH 870 G
> ...


Inferno, I have no doubt that the 4000€ KH 870 G is a fine sub, for what it is, but at a max spl of 118dB, it's not exactly going to "rock the house". That particul speaker should really shine in frequency-response however. Pretty well anything that K&H produces, are exceptional in performance.

I would think that the K&H 870 G would probably find a happy home in a studio environment, but not necessarily in a very large studio. Don't forget those measurements are "Max SPL @ 1m. At a greater distance, the inverse-square law will reduce output by half at every doubling of distance. With MAX SPL at [email protected], this becomes [email protected], and [email protected], and [email protected], and [email protected], and so on.

For comparison sake, my Yorkville LS801P is 1500w , 2500w peak, has a sensitivity of 105dB at 1w/1m with 134dB continuous/140dB Max measured at 1m in half-space. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the K&H 870 G sounded better (tighter/cleaner) at rated output. The Yorkie however. would blow it away in total output-level. A lot would depend on the room.


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## inferno (Aug 13, 2020)

how big is one of those yorkvilles?


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 13, 2020)

Dimensions (DWH xbackW, inches)23 x 27.5 x 32Dimensions (DWH xbackW, cm)58.4 x 70 x 81.3Weight (lbs/kg)



The cabinet is very heavily braced 11-ply 5/8" Russian Birch plywood.
The 18" driver is by B+C,,,, but, Yorkie at one point was going with a similarly spec'd in-house design. B&C have a LOT of models, and they provide bass-drivers for MANY companies. Very highly regarded in the industry.

The Yorkie is a rear-horn loaded design. The cabinet is also a tilt-back design with casters.137.3 / 62.3


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## MarcelNL (Aug 13, 2020)

think big inferno, big sound needs big speakers...Horns, open baffles it's all too large for comfort, yet too good to live without. 
I integrated the open baffles in a wall, it does not get more infinite for a baffle, you can build corner horns but for low frequency they still end up being large...


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## Lars (Aug 13, 2020)

I liked the K&H O300D. Pretty workable nearfield.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 13, 2020)

Lars said:


> I liked the K&H O300D. Pretty workable nearfield.



Yep,,, it's an INCREDIBLE monitor. One of the best I've ever heard. Crazy expensive, but what a sound. The resolution is uncanny. Imaging is virtually holographic. Mated to it's matching sub, you simply would not want "better",,, nor would I think it exists.


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## Lars (Aug 13, 2020)

Yeah, I didn’t really like the sub. And they were a littte too hyped for me but still workable


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 13, 2020)

Lars said:


> Yeah, I didn’t really like the sub. And they were a littte too hyped for me but still workable



You really have to be conservative with the subs,,,, you don't want those low frequencies colouring the highs. Just bring up the sub's output level very gradually, until you get a natural-sounding blend. Nothing sounds worse than a disproportionate blend of highs vs lows. BooMMM,,,BooMMM,,,BooMMMMM. A lot of folks just go too crazy when apllying subs, and it sounds like crap. It's got to be "natural",,,, not hyped.


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## Lars (Aug 13, 2020)

I could do a session on them without subs, but they are still not my first pick.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 13, 2020)

Lars said:


> I could do a session on them without subs, but they are still not my first pick.



Maybe so,,, depends what you're playing in that session. In a full-range application, you could be missing out on an entire octave of low-end frequency response. A synth for example, is capable of very deeeep lows.


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## Lars (Aug 13, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> you don't want those low frequencies colouring the highs.


You and @inferno should start a club called “the highs start at 300hz”


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## Lars (Aug 13, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Maybe so,,, depends what you're playing in that session. In a full-range application, you could be missing out on an entire octave of low-end frequency response. A synth for example, is capable of very deeeep lows.


Nah..


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 13, 2020)

Lars said:


> You and @inferno should start a club called “the highs start at 300hz”


That's a bit of a silly response, isn't it?


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## Lars (Aug 13, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> That's a bit of a silly response, isn't it?


Sure. What’s your point?


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## inferno (Aug 13, 2020)

Lars said:


> I liked the K&H O300D. Pretty workable nearfield.



have you heard any dynaudio active monitor? are they good?


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## inferno (Aug 13, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Maybe so,,, depends what you're playing in that session. In a full-range application, you could be missing out on an entire octave of low-end frequency response. A synth for example, is capable of very deeeep lows.



everything sounds good on small monitors. and its really not until you add a sub you notice what you have missed all that time. i can hear the bass on the jbls when i run them full range but i can't really feel it.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 13, 2020)

Inferno, don't forget the smaller Yorkies I mentioned earlier. (Yorkville NX720P). Much smaller than my LS801P, and excellent output. Here's a link to a few more by TurboSound and ElectroVoice.


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## Lars (Aug 14, 2020)

inferno said:


> have you heard any dynaudio active monitor? are they good?


Have used the Air-6 near fields for some sessions and they are great. Have also used some of their passive stuff, the M-1 mains and BM-15 midfields. Really like them.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 14, 2020)

Dynaudio makes great stuff, so does Scan Speak, DIY-ing near field monitors is very doable if you like to tinker, still costly but you end up with pretty much double the sound quality when compared to buying off the shelf.

Used to play with a Podszus-Görlich- Scan Speak modded esotar combo until I went for full range, now using 4 13" Klangfilm era speakers as 'near field monitor'.

BTW; for the 'high starts at 300Hz' club; try Mika Vainio (or here with Pan Sonic);


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## gregfisk (Aug 14, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> This is what I did... 120Hz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


IMO the one thing that people don’t spend enough time on is room treatment. You can measure your speakers all day long and I commend you for that but if you don’t have good room treatment it’s not going to matter when you turn that music up loud.

I personally use servo controlled woofers. My speakers have two 12” servo subs each. I can’t recommend them enough if you like clean bass. No more muddy bass since they start and stop instantly. I also have a lot of room treatments so that the bass doesn’t bounce all over the room.


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## gregfisk (Aug 14, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> think big inferno, big sound needs big speakers...Horns, open baffles it's all too large for comfort, yet too good to live without.
> I integrated the open baffles in a wall, it does not get more infinite for a baffle, you can build corner horns but for low frequency they still end up being large...


My speakers are open baffle and I really like how they interact in my room. They aren’t huge but with two 12” servo subs per speaker they aren’t small either.


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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)

Lars said:


> Have used the Air-6 near fields for some sessions and they are great. Have also used some of their passive stuff, the M-1 mains and BM-15 midfields. Really like them.



what about these? the bm5 mk3 is 800€ a pair and the bm6a is twice the price. 
the cheap one has 100w class d and the other one 200w a/b. 






BM5 mkIII - Two-way active nearfield speakers - Dynaudio


The Dynaudio BM15 mkIII monitors with ultra-high dynamic range and hand-crafted drivers deliver performance superior to many larger and more expensive monitors.




www.dynaudio.com









Near field monitors - Classic BM6A professional monitors - Dynaudio


The Dynaudio BM6A monitors deliver neutral and uncolored sounds when mixing, due to our unique driver technology. Dynaudio - All there is!




www.dynaudio.com


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## Lars (Aug 14, 2020)

inferno said:


> what about these? the bm5 mk3 is 800€ a pair and the bm6a is twice the price.
> the cheap one has 100w class d and the other one 200w a/b.
> 
> 
> ...


Never heard either of those.


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 14, 2020)

Here's a sub for you;









Horn Subwoofer Takes Up Crazy Man's Entire Basement


While you might think you have a pretty sizable subwoofer, when it's compared to this crazy Italian man's subwoofer, it's downright pathetic. That's because he essentially converted his entire basement into one ridiculously large subwoofer.Update: OK, so this is a few years old (circa 2000), but...




gizmodo.com


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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)

bobby for me i feel the 116 or so spl i have (corr: had) is good. this is basically as loud i want or need to play. and the problem i have now is that to get that spl back i need to spend way more than 200€. the behringer amp was 180€ when i bought it like 10 years ago. and its a carbon copy of the qsc 1450 i think. an 800€ amp. no nonsense "no audiophile" construction too. just clean(ish) power.

i have 2 more unused subwoofers though. should i want to increase my spl by 3dB.

i think the real problem when the behringer worked was that the jbls were simply too weak. and not only that the pwm amps in them did not make the speakers sound better the louder it got. it just got louder.

i think of it like a digital picture. its a good comparison i think. with an a/b amp the more you turn up the vol the finer and finer (more and more of them) the pixels get. but with the jbls you have like this fixed rez, and when you get to a certain magnification the pixels just get bigger. and the sound dont get "better", yeah thats what i'm hearing.

i have never ever heard this with any a/b amp so i guess this is a characterisic of a class d amp (a cheap one at least). i mean the jbls sounds linear enough and (almost) loud enough but that loudness does not correspond to increased "goodness" somehow.


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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)

btw what i'm thinking about now is simply getting a new qsc 1450 (800€) and simply mount a very big black alu heatsink to the stock one. my brother thinks this a good solution too. and he built one of the first fully passively cooled computers in the world so he knows a good deal about passive cooling.

why black?? thats why Kirchhoff's law of thermal radiation - Wikipedia

and then for monitors i'm thinking about either getting the dynaudio i posted above the 6whatever model (1600€) or the k&h 5 incher. but i think the k&h will not in reality be able to play louder than the jbls i already have. because there is no free lunch with physics. so a 5 incher is a 5 incher. and 40w is 40w. and 10w extra will not make it louder, neither will 1 or 2 liters extra box size. but a 7 incher, yeah thats 3dB across the board. and 100w instead of 50w is 3dB extra right there across the board. i have simulted maybe 30-40 5-7 inchers (seas/scanspeak/morel etc etc). and there is simply no free lunch. and if there is i have not found it. the only free lunch there is, is that woofers designed for bigger boxes will play louder. and that not really a free lunch.

and you cant really take a short cut like my subwoofers do by simply increasing xmax by 100% or so. since these smaller woofers still need to play 3khz or so. and they need to have a certain dispersion sideways that matches the tweeter at crossover. and you simply need bigger voice coils for that, with more thermal mass, and then they simply wont have good dispersion at 2-3khz.


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## gregfisk (Aug 14, 2020)

I know I’ve already mentioned this twice but you’re right back where you started buying a $800.00 amp that doesn’t hold a candle to a $350.00us Crown xls1500. I’ve heard them side by side and the Crown will run circles around that Behringer amp. And it doesn’t have a noisy fan in it. In fact it doesn’t have a fan at all. A lot of guys were running these Crown amps in audiophile systems and liked them. I purchased a couple but ended up using them in my 5.1 surround sound system because I didn’t like them near as much as my class a and ab amps in my good two channel system.


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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)




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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> I know I’ve already mentioned this twice but you’re right back where you started buying a $800.00 amp that doesn’t hold a candle to a $350.00us Crown xls1500. I’ve heard them side by side and the Crown will run circles around that Behringer amp. And it doesn’t have a noisy fan in it. In fact it doesn’t have a fan at all. A lot of guys were running these Crown amps in audiophile systems and liked them. I purchased a couple but ended up using them in my 5.1 surround sound system because I didn’t like them near as much as my class a and ab amps in my good two channel system.



the behringer amp is just a qsc 1450 amp. that they ripped off, they also ripped off the ep2500 construction. and its the 2450a here RMX 1450a it had dual feed rail from the psu. at a certain power it switches rails. and you can tune the crossover distortion to very very low thd% but i was cheap when i bought my ep1500 the 250 was like 100€ more. but its almost twice the power. 
almost nothing runs circles around these amps.


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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)

crown xls 1500 Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): < 0.5%. the behringer/qsc is like 100 times better.

thats not good.

its also a class D, so the power figures don't reallt impress me at all. if i wanted a class D i would buy a lab gruppen.


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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)

also if one takes the time to look at the data of the qsc and the crown amps you will see how unserious crown is with their specs/measurements. while qsc provides pretty much everything you need to know crown simply pull some numbers out of their ass. thats not serious if you ask me. i mean i can pay, but i cant pay for "mystery stuff". its just not gonna happen. owners manual Crown XLS 1500


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 14, 2020)

The way I see you going at this moment, you don't appear to have a clear picture of what it is that you want/need. I'm not referring to audio components,,,, I'm referring to the tasks you wish to accomplish. Small monitors are probably fine for listening to music,,,,, using your synth as a dedicated instrument however, might present a very different set of issues.

The VERY FIRST thing I'd do if I were in your shoes, is get myself to a pro-audio store, and have a talk with a "competent" sales-person/dealer. Explain precisely what it is you wish to accomplish. Bring your synth with you. Listen to as many systems as you feel necessary,,, even if you have no intention to buy at that moment. Just assess the impact of those various choices/options vs how well the various systems meet those specific needs. Ask if you can try this gear at home for a day or two. You might also be able to rent that gear by the day/week. etc.

Don't be too reliant on 'specs"; remember, a speaker manufacturer may be using a little creative marketing to achieve those "great looking paper-specs",,,, that's what "sells" gear. Just trust your ears, and consider warranty and after-sale parts and service availability.... and their return policy. Make a check-list before going to the store,,,, listing everything you want to consider when auditioning that gear.This is something you're going to have-to do.(listening in person) At the end of the day, even if you decide you don't need "new gear", and you decide to repair what you do have,,,, you'll at least know what the possibilities were, and there's "no-charge" for that.


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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)

bobby i know what i "need" and thats 2x6,5 inch in the mids, 50-70 liters. i have had that and its sounds wonderful. i have those speakers as decoration now. i simply dont have the space for them. i live ultra compact. my whole house is 25m2. i cant have 60 liter monitors longer. i can have 15 liter ones at most. or else i have to move my fridge. yeah it was a joke but space is at a premium. if i can achieve the spl i want at only 15-20l per box its nice. but 50-60l is wont work, there is simply no space. 

i'd love to recommision my old monitors at 60l each, they had real physical punch up to 1k. but its simply not possible.


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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)




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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)

mother of ****ing god!! this tune/vid is good. tbis is a typical song that i woul pretty much max out the system at.


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## inferno (Aug 14, 2020)

thuis one is for you lars, danish!! and badass!


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## Luftmensch (Aug 15, 2020)

inferno said:


> this tune/vid is good



Some nice ~45~50Hz bass guitar in there...


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## Luftmensch (Aug 15, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> A lot depends on the rigidity of the mains, (cabinet resonance).



They aren't too bad. Its all the other stuff in the room around them!



gregfisk said:


> I personally use servo controlled woofers. My speakers have two 12” servo subs each. I can’t recommend them enough if you like clean bass. No more muddy bass since they start and stop instantly.



Same as my subs! Very 'clean'. Not flabby at all...



gregfisk said:


> I also have a lot of room treatments so that the bass doesn’t bounce all over the room.



Nice one. It cant be ignored if you are striving for a really clean experience... Our space is too multipurpose to optimise it for our sound system...  Maybe one day!


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 15, 2020)

inferno said:


> crown xls 1500 Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): < 0.5%. the behringer/qsc is like 100 times better.
> 
> thats not good.
> 
> its also a class D, so the power figures don't reallt impress me at all. if i wanted a class D i would buy a lab gruppen.


Uli owns Lab Gruppen now (Uli Behringer) He also bought Midas (consoles), Klark-Teknik, Lake, Tannoy, and TurboSound.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 15, 2020)

inferno said:


> its the best synth demo in the world.




Reminds me of Vangelis


(Edit... some of those notes are poo inducing... 35Hz...)


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 15, 2020)




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## panda (Aug 15, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> The way I see you going at this moment, you don't appear to have a clear picture of what it is that you want/need. I'm not referring to audio components,,,, I'm referring to the tasks you wish to accomplish. Small monitors are probably fine for listening to music,,,,, using your synth as a dedicated instrument however, might present a very different set of issues.
> 
> The VERY FIRST thing I'd do if I were in your shoes, is get myself to a pro-audio store, and have a talk with a "competent" sales-person/dealer. Explain precisely what it is you wish to accomplish. Bring your synth with you. Listen to as many systems as you feel necessary,,, even if you have no intention to buy at that moment. Just assess the impact of those various choices/options vs how well the various systems meet those specific needs. Ask if you can try this gear at home for a day or two. You might also be able to rent that gear by the day/week. etc.
> 
> Don't be too reliant on 'specs"; remember, a speaker manufacturer may be using a little creative marketing to achieve those "great looking paper-specs",,,, that's what "sells" gear. Just trust your ears, and consider warranty and after-sale parts and service availability.... and their return policy. Make a check-list before going to the store,,,, listing everything you want to consider when auditioning that gear.This is something you're going to have-to do.(listening in person) At the end of the day, even if you decide you don't need "new gear", and you decide to repair what you do have,,,, you'll at least know what the possibilities were, and there's "no-charge" for that.


genelecs sound pretty damn good at the guitarcenter (poor conditions) with the treble turned down a bit


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 15, 2020)

panda said:


> genelecs sound pretty damn good at the guitarcenter (poor conditions) with the treble turned down a bit


Yep, Genelec has many models too. Focal is yet another brand in that price-range. They both have their quirks though. The listening/monitoring sweetspot is VERY TIGHT on some models. I had to move my head vertically to get the sweetspot, which is very unusual. Even a tiny up/down movement made a big difference. If I remember correctly, the Focals were using an inverted-dome tweeter on some models,,, and I believe the Genelecs were using a wave-guide. My clear favourites though, were the Klein & Hummel 0 300 (now called Neumann). I've got a pair of Spendor SA3's which I've had since the early 80's. That's a large control-room monitor, originally custom-designed by Spencer Hughes, an engineer formerly with the BBC, for radio-station WDR Cologne, in Germany.

I've also got a pair of Adam A-7's which also gets pretty good reviews, and not very expensive. I haven't even tried those yet. I'm getting lazy, or suffereing from speaker-overload. (33 in all, plus 3 headphones)

ADAM A7X (Price is in Canadian dollars)


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## MarcelNL (Aug 15, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Here's a sub for you;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



haha, yeah I know of this, there is a guy in the UK doing the same, built his house around the design of his horns and his horns enter the living room in the corners, Japanes bloke doing similar but in a hill side....(don't want to wind up the horn if you don't have to.

how about this, it's a near field solution that goes LOW and does not need a gazillion over-inflated Watts to power. Life is about making choices you know ;-)

ANd BTW; THD numbers alone are pretty pointless as it's easy to get THD way down at the cost of increasing TIM (Transient InterModulation). In the end the amp looks good on paper but sounds like S%&t


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## MarcelNL (Aug 15, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> (Edit... some of those notes are poo inducing... 35Hz...)


that is a hoax ;-)
Can vouch for it as my system does 30 -32 Hz as lowest freq, and Myth busters did an episode or two on the topic.


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## LostHighway (Aug 15, 2020)

A bit more on horn loaded systems here


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## Luftmensch (Aug 15, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> that is a hoax ;-)
> Can vouch for it as my system does 30 -32 Hz as lowest freq, and Myth busters did an episode or two on the topic.



Oh yeah?.... Well.... you aint seen my couch...


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 15, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> haha, yeah I know of this, there is a guy in the UK doing the same, built his house around the design of his horns and his horns enter the living room in the corners, Japanes bloke doing similar but in a hill side....(don't want to wind up the horn if you don't have to.
> 
> how about this, it's a near field solution that goes LOW and does not need a gazillion over-inflated Watts to power. Life is about making choices you know ;-)
> 
> ANd BTW; THD numbers alone are pretty pointless as it's easy to get THD way down at the cost of increasing TIM (Transient InterModulation). In the end the amp looks good on paper but sounds like S%&tView attachment 90484



Boy oh boy, you've gotta wonder where these guys' heads were at. Great "cool looking factor",,, but I can't even turn up a single cabinet of my 18" Yorkville LS801P's beyond level 2 without the dishes in my kitchen bouncing around in the cupboards, and my L-shaped living-room measures 36' x 32'.

Even when I step outside the house and listen by standing in my driveway to see if it's too loud for the neighbours, it sounds like I'm listening to a "Live" band from a hotel parking lot. Most of the time now, I tend to use my 15" Yorkville LS700P's because the 801P is just tooo muchhhh.

FWIW, we were having "jams" here on a fairly regular basis; up to 12 musicians/vocalists at a time. I provide the "venue" and the front and back-line equipment. I tend to prefer the acoustic jams and we mic the vocals. When we're "rockin' though, the electric gear comes out. (Keyboards, fully-mic'ed acoustic Drum-kit, Latin Percussion, Guitars, Bass, and sometimes horns. We do the "Full Monty, complete with lights, lasers, etc. People driving by often stop their cars and watch us through the living-room windows, to see " what's happenin' "

One thing I'm very proud of;,,,, as loud as we can be,,, we virtually never have feedback.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 15, 2020)

those 'guys' were the engineers of KLangilm, a Siemens-Halske operation back in the day when cinema got audio. These (and many more systems by them and Western Electric) are now highly sought after bits of kit. In the 20-ies and 30-ies they had few measurements, but folks knew how things should sound, and they did not give up until they got very very close!
Powered by a couple of low power tube amps, speakers in the wall behind the screen and you;re ready to go. Best audio reproduction I ever heard was made based on this sort of equipment, pls don;t make the misstake to compare PA with reproducing sound at home, while there are similarities there are some vast differences too!


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## Lars (Aug 15, 2020)

Edit; It seems I have become irrelevant.


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## WildBoar (Aug 15, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> One thing I'm very proud of;,,,, as loud as we can be,,, we virtually never have feedback.


I'm surprised your neighbors did not provide you with any


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## Lars (Aug 15, 2020)

..he said virtually..


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 15, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> those 'guys' were the engineers of KLangilm, a Siemens-Halske operation back in the day when cinema got audio. These (and many more systems by them and Western Electric) are now highly sought after bits of kit. In the 20-ies and 30-ies they had few measurements, but folks knew how things should sound, and they did not give up until they got very very close!
> Powered by a couple of low power tube amps, speakers in the wall behind the screen and you;re ready to go. Best audio reproduction I ever heard was made based on this sort of equipment, pls don;t make the misstake to compare PA with reproducing sound at home, while there are similarities there are some vast differences too!



Oh, I agree 100% Marcel,,, the point I was making, but didn't specifically mention was, why "dual" monster subs? Completely pointless and unneccesary other than the "cool-looking factor".

By the way, do you remember the Altec-Lansing A7 "Voice-of-the-Theater"? How about the ElectroVoice Patrician? If I remember correctly, the A7's ran a 25w amp. The Patrician had a version with 30" subwoofer, and also ran on very little juice.


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## MarcelNL (Aug 15, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> (Edit... some of those notes are poo inducing... 35Hz...)





Bobby2shots said:


> Oh, I agree 100% Marcel,,, the point I was making, but didn't specifically mention was, why "dual" monster subs? Completely pointless and unneccesary other than the "cool-looking factor".




AHA, well, these are not subs, this is full range.
Think full range horns with a super tweeter, both capable of fierce dynamics with very little coloration!
The surface area of the horn mouth sets the lowest frequency, when you don't fall into the trap of time misalignment due to bends and twists, vibrations etc its wide band up to the limit of the driver in use, usually around 5-7k


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## Bobby2shots (Aug 15, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> I'm surprised your neighbors did not provide you with any



They've all moved away!!!!! (just kidding.)

The lots where I am are fairly large, and my closest neighbour is mostly away at his lake cottage in summer time.(when windows might be open). We also do more acoustic jams than we do loud club-level electric-jams.


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## inferno (Aug 21, 2020)

Bobby2shots said:


> Uli owns Lab Gruppen now (Uli Behringer) He also bought Midas (consoles), Klark-Teknik, Lake, Tannoy, and TurboSound.



just as volkswagen owns porsche, and fiat ferrari,  how the F could we all let this happen?? the horror


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## inferno (Aug 21, 2020)

panda said:


> genelecs sound pretty damn good at the guitarcenter (poor conditions) with the treble turned down a bit



i have read this about genelecs for maybe 10 years, many people think they are too bright and fatigueing. i think the real "problem" is that they have have quite a linear response off axis (like 30 deg ou)t, and thats whats causing it. they have a waveguide for the tweeter and a waveguide is used to increase dispersion up top.


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