# Japanese stainless steels



## Addict (May 9, 2016)

Hey, I just joined this forum out of interest and I've read threads and posts that really help me before so I decided to join.
So I'm looking for a new stainless steel knife.
I've used Japanese carbon steels more than Japanese stainless steels, so I'm looking for a new taste of steel.
I know about some Japanese stainless steels but I don't know much about them anyway.
So if you have experience with them please give me a perspective of them.

Thanks


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## osakajoe (May 10, 2016)

Most Japanese stain resistant steels used sre VG10, AUS8, AUS10, GIN3, and R2. Look them up on zknives


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## ThEoRy (May 10, 2016)

R2/SG2 win.


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## Pensacola Tiger (May 10, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> R2/SG2 win.



That's just because you're in love with your Tanaka. :biggrin:


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## panda (May 10, 2016)

hap40


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## richard (May 10, 2016)

Also a fan of R2/SG2 here. Should be relatively easy to transition to from carbon steels, I imagine. Another one is AEB-L/13C26. Fine grained and sharpens easily, though not the same edge retention of R2/SG2. Also suggest this video, the second half Jon covers some well known Japanese stainless steels.

https://youtu.be/jkLsLst8qMc


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## Steampunk (May 11, 2016)

There are lots of nice Japanese stainless steels...

Akifusa's heat treatment of SRS-15 is pretty amazing... Holds a hair-shaving edge for an outstanding period of time, but is amazingly easy to sharpen and de-burr for such a wear resistant powdered-metal steel, and actually doesn't feel as bad as some stainless's on the stones. First knife I've ever owned that actually holds an edge for a month of daily home use, but you would never know it when sharpening; the edge comes back to life with a few strops on a finishing stone almost like carbon. 

Hitachi Ginsan/Ginsanko steel can be quite special depending upon the heat-treat... Some say that it's the Shirogami of stainless steel's, and whilst the iteration I have tried doesn't _quite_ match that description, I have found it an enjoyable steel to work with. Nice to sharpen when paired with the right stones; it's pretty fine-grained, and doesn't feel 'rubbery', or 'crunchy' like some SS can. It takes a good edge, although not exactly like carbon. Edge retention is 'good'; I can get about a week out of it in a home kitchen between sharpening without a touch-up. It does sharpen nicely on J-Nats, though, which is nice; not all SS's do due to their carbide structure. 

VG-10 is a love it or hate it kind of steel, and it all depends upon the heat treat... Sadly, the company who's heat treat of this steel I like the best of the makers I have tried just makes pocket knives out of it (Spyderco), but when it's done right it's a nicely balanced steel. Not a super steel, nor a flavor of the month, or a carbon wannabe, but just a nice reliable stainless. I've also tried versions that are just kind of mediocre, and some versions sold at popular kitchen stores are supposed to be downright nasty, so it really depends upon who's working with it.

ZDP-189 is another love it or hate it steel... I prefer SRS-15 slightly, but ZDP-189's still a great PM steel by most standards. Its corrosion resistance is more 'semi stainless' than 'stainless', and it's a little harder to sharpen than SRS-15, but the version I have tried @ 64-65hrc is not a pig on the stones by any stretch of the imagination. Compared to most western SS, it's actually pretty joyous to work with, and takes/holds a superb edge. 

If you're interested in also playing with some semi-stainless steels, SLD (Hitachi's refined version of D2) is almost stainless, and the iteration I own (Hiromoto) is surprisingly nice. Durable, has great edge retention, doesn't feel bad on the stones... It doesn't get quite as sharp as carbon, or even some of the SS's listed above, though. You can still get it to shave hair (Which according to most D2 users, is a miracle.), but you'd never want to use a razor made of the stuff. It's a tool steel, and feels like it. 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## jacko9 (May 11, 2016)

Konosuke HD2 - see Tosho Knife Arts


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## chinacats (May 11, 2016)

Only two I've tried are Ginsanko and SRS-15. Biggest and only real problem is that they are stainless. 

I would agree w/ Steampunk assessment of SRS-15 but perhaps that is because I have what I believe to be a similar (same?) knife (Gesshin Kagero). Holds a solid edge for a prolonged period and easy to sharpen.

Ginsanko I really like and the knife I have has held a decent edge for a longer time than many knives I use (maybe it's because it's stainless and I don't pick it up as often?). Mine is a Tanaka gyuto and I've still not sharpened it...it was from the last round of Tanaka G3 so it's not new and I'm not exactly easy on edges...still silently slices phone book paper. I'll likely sharpen it just to thin it sometime soon but really doesn't 'need' that. Did I mention how much I like Tanaka knives?


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## Lizzardborn (May 11, 2016)

richard said:


> Also a fan of R2/SG2 here. Should be relatively easy to transition to from carbon steels, I imagine. Another one is AEB-L/13C26. Fine grained and sharpens easily, though not the same edge retention of R2/SG2. Also suggest this video, the second half Jon covers some well known Japanese stainless steels.
> 
> https://youtu.be/jkLsLst8qMc



AEB-L is technically speaking Swedish.


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## Addict (May 11, 2016)

Thanks for the replies guys!


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## toddnmd (May 11, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> Konosuke HD2 - see Tosho Knife Arts



Technically, HD/HD2 is semi-stainless. Yes, it performs much like stainless, but IIRC the chromium content is ~8%.


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## DanHumphrey (May 11, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> R2/SG2 win.



This very much.


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## jacko9 (May 11, 2016)

toddnmd said:


> Technically, HD/HD2 is semi-stainless. Yes, it performs much like stainless, but IIRC the chromium content is ~8%.



Yes you're correct but, I have been using my 240mm HD2 Gyuto for the past 18 months and I haven't seen any reactivity at all so far.

Jack


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## richard (May 11, 2016)

Lizzardborn said:


> AEB-L is technically speaking Swedish.



Yes, one of a few Swedish steels commonly used by Japanese knife makers is what is meant


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## andur (May 11, 2016)

So if I'm used to white and blue steel gyutos (and yanagibas) will I see a difference in edge retention if I get a silver steel mioroshi? My experience with stainless is limited but I recently got a tojiro gyuto in VG10 which has absolutely amazing edge retention but is difficult to sharpen compared to carbon steel.


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## dough (May 11, 2016)

not many people have used hap40 in kitchen knife world... i would love to hear how it compares to sg2/r2


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## DanHumphrey (May 11, 2016)

dough said:


> not many people have used hap40 in kitchen knife world... i would love to hear how it compares to sg2/r2



My impression is it's fairly new. There are a few out there, but it's nothing like as readily-available as the other steels, and since the knives that use it are new, they aren't on the common list of suggestions when people ask what to get, so that means even fewer get them.


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## Pensacola Tiger (May 11, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> My impression is it's fairly new. There are a few out there, but it's nothing like as readily-available as the other steels, and since the knives that use it are new, they aren't on the common list of suggestions when people ask what to get, so that means even fewer get them.



HAP40 knives have been around since early 2013, but up until recently the longest gyuto available was a 210. Now the Kohetsu (CKtG) and the Kazan (Chubo) lines have 240 gyutos. I think you'll see more word-of-mouth recommendations as the 240's are acquired by the "knife knuts".


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## DanHumphrey (May 11, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> HAP40 knives have been around since early 2013, but up until recently the longest gyuto available was a 210. Now the Kohetsu (CKtG) and the Kazan (Chubo) lines have 240 gyutos. I think you'll see more word-of-mouth recommendations as the 240's are acquired by the "knife knuts".



Well, that is newer than the whites, blues, VG10, and R2, right? Or am I totally off-base on that assumption.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 11, 2016)

andur said:


> So if I'm used to white and blue steel gyutos (and yanagibas) will I see a difference in edge retention if I get a silver steel mioroshi? My experience with stainless is limited but I recently got a tojiro gyuto in VG10 which has absolutely amazing edge retention but is difficult to sharpen compared to carbon steel.



I can see using only carbons Vg10 might seem not as easy. I only used carbons for years too. VG10 has Cobalt, Vanadium, & Molybdenum I am surprised how easy it is to sharpen considering the larger carbides. Everything is relative I find VG10 much better than cheaper stainless that I have to sharpen.

The powder steels, AEB-L, Japanese sweetish steel are finer grained and actually sharpen more like carbon. SRS-15 can take a highly refined edge & very sharpening friendly. Hap40 is semi stainless has superior edge retention. Have only used the western handles, waiting to see if anyone here picks up the Kohetsu wa 240 gyuto it is a little cheaper & looks to have a decent grind.


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## spoiledbroth (May 11, 2016)

Kohetsu also make a 270 hap40... Cktg just got them in recently


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## jonnachang (Jul 24, 2016)

I love my R-2/ SG-2 knives: Itou and Tanaka! Would like to hear more about HAP40.


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## supersayan3 (Jul 24, 2016)

How does R2 compare to SRS15? 
Anybody who has experience with both?


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## JaVa (Jul 24, 2016)

I have the Kohetsu 240 wa hap40. I´ve had for few months. Still haven not been able to get a good work out out of it so my experience is still too limited to give a fully knowledgable feedback but my impressions so far is very conflicted.

Yes the grind would be decent, (actually even great) if it would be everything it tries to be. Either I got a lemon or who ever grinds and sharpens them does not yet have the skills to do what he is trying to accomplish. 

There are two over grinds on the left side of the blade, tip was severely curved to the left and the whole blade is slightly bent to the left too. All the corners were eased but it still had very sharp burrs all over the place from the grind. Oob edge was ok but steered to the left like it was on rails. There´s a noticeable ''speed'' bump at the heel which drives me nuts. (it´s actually shown in their promo video.) Left face of the blade is ground almost flat (or I guess is supposed to be as mine is not straight) and theres only a micro bevel. The right side has a convex grind but the bevel is ground uneven. There is no distal taper and the tip is clumsy because the grind of the knife starts too late.

One major selling point of this knife was that great f&f. :rofl2:
...and the seller could not care less!!! Hooorrrible customer service!

But the knife is light, quite thin, it´s in the laser-ish territory. It has good edge retention and actually is fine to sharpen with stones. The metal has a nice feel when cutting on the board and handle was well finished. I´m surprised after all that headache I do like using it? Hence the mixed feelings?

If everything they tried to do was done any better, this could a special performer, but as it stands it´s just a major migraine with great potential.
I will post a full review after I get the last issues sorted and get more time with it at work.

Nutshell: Great steel, knife not so much!
I would suggest to look else where for a better knife and most of all a better vendor!


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## panda (Jul 24, 2016)

are you going to fix it up? or send in for spa treatment?


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## JaVa (Jul 24, 2016)

I´ve been fixing it up slowly when ever I found some time for it. I got it almost sorted. 

I had the handle in an oil bath for five days and now just have to wait for a few days for it to dry. Then all that´s left is taking down that bump at the heel and to fix the uneven bevel. after all that I am expecting for the sun to shine, birds to sing, rainbows and unicorns to appear when I make the first cut. :cool2: 

As I´m from Finland I would not have known where to send it for spa treatment?

I´m on vacation for a few weeks and when I get back to the nut house I´ll get better acquainted with the Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde to make the full review. It seems to be a knife that raises some interest. 

More about the steel: 
Hap40 is a semi stainless but maybe more on the reactive side. There´s no rust issues but the core took a very dark patina in just a couple of prep days. It feels slightly harder on the board than similar hrc rated carbon steels (IMO) and with my still limited experience it is surprisingly chip resistant.


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## Krassi (Jul 25, 2016)

supersayan3 said:


> How does R2 compare to SRS15?
> Anybody who has experience with both?



hiho.. i got some sg2 koTetsus (not kohetsu!) and an Srs-15 Akifusa.. 

You can sharpen both very easy and sharpness is awesome on both.. i just can not give you any long term experience, since i bought knifes and didnt use em often in the past 

Hap 40 is said to be not good for sharpening and actually not as suitable for kitchenknifes as zdp189.. well havent tried both so its just rumors i can talk about.

Since iam only doing pullcut with only knifecontact on the tip of the blade, it should last sharp for ages.. some strokes on a good ohira and its maximum sharp again.. i really like those powder steels a lot.
akifusa knife just has very polished sides so food will stick on it like hell, so i had to give it a nice scratch finish.


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## frog13 (Jul 26, 2016)

JaVa said:


> I have the Kohetsu 240 wa hap40. I´ve had for few months. Still haven not been able to get a good work out out of it so my experience is still too limited to give a fully knowledgable feedback but my impressions so far is very conflicted.
> 
> Yes the grind would be decent, (actually even great) if it would be everything it tries to be. Either I got a lemon or who ever grinds and sharpens them does not yet have the skills to do what he is trying to accomplish.
> 
> ...



I bought the Kohetsu 240 wa HAP 40 several months ago as did a good friend of mine. I believe we probably used the same vendor and am surprised, I have had nothing but good experiences over the last year or so with them. Several knives, several stones and various other supplies, great prices, fast shipping and responsive customer service. Maybe it's because I live in Wisconsin. :biggrin: As far as the Kohetsu goes, out of the box sharp, no doubt. Fit and finish was excellent so sorry to hear your experience was different. I honed it a bit on a 5000 grit stone, went to balsa with 1 micron paste and finished on bovine leather. My friend did something very similar. We talked and agreed, these knives were very, very sharp, right up there, even better than some of the others I own. (Tojiro, Tanaka, Kohetsu, Miyabi, etc,) So far it has done a lot of work with nothing more than a touch up on the balsa and leather.


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## Matus (Jul 26, 2016)

I disliked the VGB-10 in Shun Classic knives and found it much better on Tojiro DP.


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## supersayan3 (Jul 26, 2016)

In my opinion, from mass produced knives that I had met in kitchens and are commonly available almost in every country Masahiro MVH> Mac Pro(gyuto 20cm dimples is very nice)> Global > Shun VG10, which Shun I do not like at all, and I think they cannot become really sharp.

SG2/R2 amazing steel, responds on touch ups, reaches top sharpness levels.
From the more brittle steels


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## richard (Jul 26, 2016)

Some of Shun's higher end stuff in SG2 is quite good. You might be surprised if you tried them out.


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## rick alen (Jul 27, 2016)

As regards SG2/R2 and SRS-15 I'll echo some of the comments here. SG2/R2 gets sharper, much like carbon, and is easy to sharpen. SRS-15 sharpens easier, practically no burr removal, and it holds a sharp edge much longer, not at all chippy for PM steel.

You do need to micro-bevel both these steels if you are going to work on the board.

Haven't tried HAP-40 yet but would certainly like to.


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