# Thinking about doing a 1k shootout.



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

I recently acquired a few new 1k's.

So far i have:
chosera/pro 800
shapton glass 1k
shap pro 1k
naniwa hibiki 1k
kunsuto 1k from dictum
king hyper 1k

Thinking about doing some edge work on r2/srs-15, some thinning/flattening on ss and iron. and then maybe some polishing on cheap ss to show the scratch pattern. Then device some test to test speed. Here I'm thinking about rounding off a spine and kinda judge how fast that goes. Since its very easy to see how a chamfer grows.

One can never have too many stones (old samurai saying).


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

I also have 3 different 2k's to test. glass/pro/naniwa pro. 

and also 2, 3k's, naniwa hibiki and glass. 

and then 2, 12k's, shappro and superstone 12k.


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 18, 2019)

I would like to see some results from the naniwa hibiki and the kunsuto. They are interesting stones but i've never found an review of them.


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

Me neither, thats why I got them!


----------



## esoo (Apr 18, 2019)

You need some Suehiro...


----------



## Knife2meatu (Apr 18, 2019)

I'm curious about the Hibiki line. 

Is your King Hyper 1k the standard or the soft?


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

the standard i think. according to this i have the standard. https://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/king-stones.html


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

esoo said:


> You need some Suehiro...



Yes I do but then I have to order them from japan since the good/premium lines seems to be scarce here in the west. They indeed have some very interesting lines. Not talking about the cerax/rika. I'm talking the high end ones.
From europe I can get stones in 1-2 days. and sometimes in 30 minutes. And from japan its a always a fukn hassle no matter how you put it. 

I also have no sigmas. and I have about zero interest in trying them.


----------



## Barclid (Apr 18, 2019)

inferno said:


> Yes I do but then I have to order them from japan since the good/premium lines seems to be scarce here in the west. They indeed have some very interesting lines. Not talking about the cerax/rika. I'm talking the high end ones.
> From europe I can get stones in 1-2 days. and sometimes in 30 minutes. And from japan its a always a fukn hassle no matter how you put it.
> 
> I also have no sigmas. and I have about zero interest in trying them.



Sigma 400, 1k and 13k are worth trying. And which high-end are you talking about? Debado MD/LD/SNE? You can find those except LD in America. Gokumyo you can find as well, but not as prevalent. 

Edit: Just saw you said Europe so never mind on the America bit. Not sure who carries them in Euro-land.


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

I sp


Barclid said:


> Sigma 400, 1k and 13k are worth trying. And which high-end are you talking about? Debado MD/LD/SNE? You can find those except LD in America. Gokumyo you can find as well, but not as prevalent. Most places are just carrying the 20k Gokumyo. The dual stones are compositionally the same as the other Gokumyo lines, just differently sized.
> 
> Edit: Just saw you said Europe so never mind on the America bit. Not sure who carries them in Euro-land.



i spent a long time trying to decipher the whole suehiro lineup over a week or so. and this is what i came up with. 
read post 5 in this thread. https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/about-the-rika-5k-suehiros-more-generally.39626/
I think i break it down quite well how they regard/market their different lines.


----------



## Barclid (Apr 18, 2019)

I've spoken with Okumura-san personally and had him answer direct questions about each line, so I'm not going based on inference and testimonial. I also have/have tried most of the stones you're talking about, as has Jon Broida. After reading through that other post, though, I'm not really interested in getting into this conversation. I'll echo what Jon said in the other post; just e-mail Okumura-san and talk to him. He's a really nice guy.


----------



## Barclid (Apr 18, 2019)

Double post.


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

I'm just saying thats there are nicer stones than ceraxes. But here in europe none of these are sold. So I have none of them.


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

this is whats available
https://www.fine-tools.com/suehiro-stones.html
https://www.dictum.com/en/suehiro-cerax-shaped-stones-eac?p=1&followSearch=9712&o=1&n=48

Trust me if the good sh1t was available to buy here I would have owned them all already. most likely at least.
At least the whole taiga line. And most likely most of the dual stones. But since this is not happening I simply go with the most available brands. And I don't feel naniwa and shaptons "popularity" is unjustified. They make very good stuff. Just look at the glass stones.


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

here we have the contenders.


----------



## slickmamba (Apr 18, 2019)

excited to see the results!


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

the hyper and kunsuto are completely unused so this is gonna be interesting. the hibiki i used today for about 5 minutes. but i'm keeping secretive for now.


----------



## Ivan Hersh (Apr 18, 2019)

I don’t think i will ever use a 1k again its 2k to my 8k for a fairly sharp knife.


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

Ivan Hersh said:


> I don’t think i will ever use a 1k again its 2k to my 8k for a fairly sharp knife.



yeah but if you get a sh1tty knife from the factory or accidentally run you honyaki through a lawnmower? or listen to this; you need to sharpen your friends/familys/coworkers knives??
yeah? then not even 1k gonna save you i can tell you that. unless you have like an hour to spare.

*The 1k is the base stone for a good reason*. if you dont have a 1k then you dont know jack imo. unless you have a 4-500 and a 2k instead of the 1k. I have like 25 stones. so I dont really need more 1k's but i still think this is the most valuable stone. its the fukn base of everything. thats what it is. you can skew it though. its only costing you one extra stone.


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

I think i will commence my testing at dawn tomorrow. I will soak myself in sake and then do a fake santoku harakiri/seppuku to set it off. keepin it real.


----------



## Ivan Hersh (Apr 18, 2019)

inferno said:


> yeah but if you get a sh1tty knife from the factory or accidentally run you honyaki through a lawnmower? or listen to this; you need to sharpen your friends/familys/coworkers knives??
> yeah? then not even 1k gonna save you i can tell you that. unless you have like an hour to spare.
> 
> *The 1k is the base stone for a good reason*. if you dont have a 1k then you dont know jack imo. unless you have a 4-500 and a 2k instead of the 1k. I have like 25 stones. so I dont really need more 1k's but i still think this is the most valuable stone. its the fukn base of everything. thats what it is. you can skew it though. its only costing you one extra stone.


I have a 400 a 800 a 1k 6k two 2ks and my 8k along with my Coors stone.


----------



## Grunt173 (Apr 18, 2019)

Can't wait to see your results.Looks like fun. I have the Cho 800,Shapton pro 1k and a King Hyper 1k. I am really liking the hyper.


----------



## Qapla' (Apr 18, 2019)

inferno said:


> I think i will commence my testing at dawn tomorrow. I will soak myself in sake and then do a fake santoku harakiri/seppuku to set it off. keepin it real.



I recommend that getting soaked on sake should be done AFTER the blade sharpening test, not before.


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2019)

Ivan Hersh said:


> I have a 400 a 800 a 1k 6k two 2ks and my 8k along with my Coors stone.



well then you know. no further exp required


----------



## Grunt173 (Apr 19, 2019)

Qapla' said:


> I recommend that getting soaked on sake should be done AFTER the blade sharpening test, not before.


+1


----------



## jaknil (Apr 19, 2019)

Looking forward to the results
Thanks for doing this...


----------



## Tanalasta (Apr 19, 2019)

Would be nice to do the JNS and JKI synthetics 1000 stone as well ...


----------



## inferno (Apr 20, 2019)

White2/iron

Kunsuto
Feels quite rough. At first its smooth but after maybe 5 seconds it turns rougher. Its the abrasive hanging out on top I guess.
Releases abrasive medium fast.
Medium hard.
No real soaker. Quite light weight, I'm guessing its resin bonded.
Quite fast working.
Good contrast. And it made this quite fast too. Good polish.






-------------------------- 

Shapton pro
Feels coarse but smooth
Releases no or almost no abrasive.
Very hard.
Splash and go.
Very fast working.
So so contrast. It looks better in the pic than it was.




-------------------------------

Hibiki
Feels quite rubbery and aggressive but still quite smooth.
Releases no abrasive.
Very hard.
Definitely a soaker, very slow drying
Seems to be fast working. But maybe slower than the shaptons
Removes contrast. No contrast at all.






-------------------------------------
Hyper 1k standard
Quite smooth feeling.
Releases abrasive quite fast.
I'd say its medium hard at most.
Long soaker and will most likely take forever to dry.
Fast abrading.
Gets you a very dark gray color on the jigane very quickly.

However, you get many bright silver lines in the finish, like there was some stray bigger grits in there.
This stone also had some pinholes in it (doesn't really matter though) and also some spiderweb cracks, or at least crack start sites. It does not seem to be cracked yet but in the future who knows?






-----------------------------------------
Glass
Feels smooth and nice
Releases no abrasive.
Very hard feeling.
Splash and go, very fast drying.
Abrades very quickly. Possibly the fastest.
Removes contrast like the hibiki. No contrast at all.






----------------------------------------------
Chosera/pro 800
Feels quite abrasive and effective, not smoother than anything else at least.
Releases quite a bit of abrasive. Less than kunsuto and king though.
Very hard.
1-3 minute soak. Medium fast drying.
It abrades steel very fast.
Creates a light gray color on the jigane, at least you get something. It also seems to leave the highest polish, and also very consistent.






-----------------------------

On this knife there was almost no difference in cutting speed imo. They are all quite fast.
I think the best all round stone for simply abrading steel is the shapton pro. Its fast, hard, and dish slowly, and you get more material than the glass.
The glass might feel just a bit better and wear a little slower.

The kunsuto and hyper made some good contrast but the hyper produces some deeper scratches unfortunately. Best contrast was the hyper. The chosera was ok with contrast.

The hyper and hibiki are soakers and they will dry very slowly.
The kunsuto and chosera wants a short soak but thats it.
The glass/pro are true splash and go.

Its hard for me to choose the hibiki over the shapton pro since they basically feel the same and pretty much do the same, but one needs several hours of drying.

Chosera vs the rest? Well it does release some abrasive and its not quite as hard as the shaptons or the hibiki so you dont need 100% flat surfaces for this to make an even finish on something.
Its a quite a good allround stone and it dries quite fast. The kunsuto is also quite good for the same reasons.

The kunsuto being the cheapest stone did quite well actually. It just feels a little less refined than the rest.

I would have done some more tests but I accidentially cut my thumb. So I had to glue it up with cyanoacrylate for now.


----------



## Marek07 (Apr 21, 2019)

inferno said:


> White2/iron
> 
> Kunsuto
> Feels quite rough. At first its smooth but after maybe 5 seconds it turns rougher. Its the abrasive hanging out on top I guess.
> ...


Thanks for the great write up. Lots of info to help future decisions.

Sorry to hear your thumb was sacrificed in the process.


----------



## Grunt173 (Apr 21, 2019)

inferno said:


> White2/iron
> 
> Kunsuto
> Feels quite rough. At first its smooth but after maybe 5 seconds it turns rougher. Its the abrasive hanging out on top I guess.
> ...


Where is that darn like button?


----------



## inferno (Apr 21, 2019)

For this test I chamfered some pieces of talonite (Cr/Co superalloy).
Chamfered a cutoff steel for a lathe (unknown HSS, correctly hardened).
Then I went on to thinning and sharpening a Kurosaki in SS/R2 and an Akifusa in SRS-15.

I saw no real difference on the talonite, maybe the kunsuto/hibiki/king were slightly slower.

On the HSS cutoff steel I think the shapton pro and the chosera was the fastest. The hyper and glass were very fast too, no big difference really.

Is there a winner stone here? Not really. They are all quite different though. 


On rs/srs-15:

Kunsuto
Feels a bit rough.
Not the fastest, medium speed.
So so contrast.







-------------------------

Chosera
Feels quite smooth but effective. Not super smooth though.
Fast.
Quite good contrast.
Good polish on edge.






-------------------------

Hibiki
Feels very smooth and refined.
Medium/low speed.
No contrast at all.
Good polish on edge.
This stone is probably finer than 1k.

No pic here. Nothing to see!

------------------------

Hyper standard
Smooth and nice, maybe mixed with bit gritty feeling.
Seems quite fast.
Quite dark contrast. But with silver scratches just like on carbon.






---------------------------

Shapton pro
Feels rough/very rough but effective.
Very fast comparatively.
Light gray contrast, very consistent finish, similar to chosera.






---------------------------

Glass
Feels smoother than the pro but not as smooth as the hibiki.
Cuts about as fast as the pro.
Could produce same contrast as pro but could also completely remove it I found. Very hard to get repeatable results.
Here you can see how it can look. 1 side quite dark and next to it contrast gets removed.


----------



## HRC_64 (Apr 21, 2019)

Interesting thread, the scratches on the king hyper cladding are very noticible in your pics
but it looks like a good stone regardless...question: do these come out with a 3k? or is there
a need to mess about more complext ways (for those who care)...


----------



## inferno (Apr 21, 2019)

I dont have any softer type of 3k's but I did test this with the 4k kitayama. And yes they did disappear. But I also lost some contrast doing this. So I'd say its possible.


----------



## mikaelsan (Apr 22, 2019)

Did you try giving the hyper a proper lapping to see if it would make it less streaky? I don't own the stone, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall some people having this issue, and that a good lapping helped.


----------



## Garm (Apr 22, 2019)

Thanks for taking the time to do a test like this!
For what it's worth, my standard King Hyper was a real pain to open up. I think I spent about half an hour with my Atoma before I had gotten through the "crust". Never experienced this with any other stone. After that it felt much better. I'm not sure, but it could explain some of the scratching like mikaelsan mentioned.
I actually greatly prefer the softer Hyper, both in feel and speed. Also, much easier and faster to flatten.


----------



## inferno (Dec 9, 2019)

I have now had the jns 1k since july or so. I have done a lot with it to test it. to see if its any better than any of the other 1k's i already had.
To be honest, for me its a specialized stone. Its a soaker and therefore takes several days to dry out. Definitely nothing I bring out to just do 1 slightly chipped edge.

Ok.
Very grabby feeling somehow. Not gritty though
ultra hard feeling. hardest stone except spydercos I think of the ones i have tried.
Dish very slow, if ever..
Its wide and thick.
Soaker, soaks faster than the king though. And dries faster too.
Very fast stone on all steels.
Removes all contrast on all clad knives. Both SS and iron clad.
Its impossible to break it so you can push down really really heavy to hog some steel. Works faster than a typical 1k then.
Release no abrasive, or next to nothing at least.

Whats it good for?
Well imo its good for when you know you will be using a flat/hard 1k for an entire day. As a flat reference or mid grit in between other stones and so on. 
Since its stays flat and wear so slow its perfect for this. You might be using a 220 and the 1k and then a 4k or something, you can check your work off the 220 on this. And see when its time to put the 220 away. and when its time to flatten the 220 and so on. Its also good for heavy material removal on rusty work knives like the Hultafors SS mora here that I sharpened on machines and sandpaper for several years. It was my prying bar.


----------



## PappaG (Dec 9, 2019)

Edit: Referring to the JNS. THANKs!

Very interesting write up. I've been eyeing this stone a long time, finally bought it and it is in a box in my basement. Very sad on my part.
So my one line interpretation of your summary is that is a very good stone, but has inferior tactile feedback?


----------



## inferno (Dec 9, 2019)

the jns??

its a ultra hard and slow wearing but still fast acting somehow.
needs soaking unfortunately.
takes ages to dry.

its a good stone for when you need to use a 1k for an entire day or so off and on imo. otherwise the naniwa/shappro/glass are better imo. since these dry fast. and you can put them away.

its good at removing metal yet staying flat. but so is the nanipro800 and the glass1k. and the shappro. for example. also this one removes all contrast.

its just another good 1k. if i were to choose 1 single 1k this would not be it. but as no3 or so. why not. the king is also another thick soaker but it creates contrast, and slurries. but wears faster. same speed.
the hibiki is very similar to this. but the hibiki felt very nice and smooth compared to this. also removed all contrast. also ultra hard. and slow wearing. also a soaker. the hibiki could load up while the jns never loads up, well it does but it still keeps on cutting like new. however all soakers load up very little if any generally.


----------



## big D (Dec 9, 2019)

Thank you for the reviews. Appreciated.
D.


----------



## jaknil (Dec 9, 2019)

The JNS 1000, is a ´Splash and go´ stone.
It´s not a soaker.
I don´t know why you think so.

Please look at the description as made by Maxim on his website, that clearly states this.
https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/jns-1000-matukusuyama/

I think it´s a really good stone with a very fast result and good feedback.


----------



## inferno (Dec 10, 2019)

the new one yes. not this one. completely different stone.


----------



## Grunt173 (Dec 11, 2019)

Good stuff. Thanks inferno.


----------



## madelinez (Dec 12, 2019)

Nice comparison, especially doing carbon and stainless.
I haven't seen the scratching you saw with your hyper, I agree it needs a very long soak and days to dry though. Still my favorite starting stone but not great if you don't want to wait.


----------



## inferno (Dec 12, 2019)

my king might be a dud but i have read others having the same problem. so i think its like a 50/50 problem. 

yeah i felt it was necessary to do both SS/SS and carbon/iron. 

I sold my my jns today to my neighbor. and i could just as well have sold the king. but i felt the jns was the most foolproof stone. its indestructable. 
i'm now down to only 4, 1k stones. shappro/glass/nanipro/king. those are my keepers. but if you dont try stuff yourself you will never know...

nanipro 1k i gave to my brother, kunsuto sold, jns sold, missarka 800 given away. probably forgetting some other ones too. it is what it is. 

hope you liked the test.


----------



## jaknil (Dec 14, 2019)

PappaG said:


> Edit: Referring to the JNS. THANKs!
> 
> Very interesting write up. I've been eyeing this stone a long time, finally bought it and it is in a box in my basement. Very sad on my part.
> So my one line interpretation of your summary is that is a very good stone, but has inferior tactile feedback?


How do you like the stone?


----------



## inferno (Dec 14, 2019)

regarding tactile feedback of the jns. its pretty much non existant. but so were almost all the other ones too. Almost no 1k stones feel particulary good imo.

Maybe the chosera has a bit of it and then the king. but thats it.

But it doesn't really matter imo. the 1k stones are the "coarse" stones for the japanese knives. its the stone you put on basic bevels, minor thinning, minor chip repair on so on with. so what you really want its the stone just abrading steel. with as little as possible extra fuzz required from the user.

all these stones are about the same speed. on all types of materials. talonite/ss/carbon/soft ss/iron. there is basically no difference. they just feel slightly different (and some are soakers), and wear/dish faster or slower. but not enough to get one over the other if you are just getting 1 1k stone.

probably the best overall stone in the lineup is the shapton glass. or the shapton pro. since the shapton pro is thicker. so it better bang/buck ratio. if you just want to abrade steel that is. the glass feels a bit creamier but its very minor.

the chosera is the only stone that makes good contrast between jigane/hagane (no streaks and consistent finish) without any whatsoever user skill though, and its super duper repeatable and basically if you rub steel long enough on it (which is not very long at all) you will get the same result each and every time. but its known to crack. and mine is starting to crack too. and i use it as a s&g stone only.


----------

