# Which Takeda is which?



## Jville (Nov 16, 2021)

So I hear a lot of this concept that the classic are somewhat superior to the NAS Takedas. Sometimes as if the NAS are like clunky or wedges. So here is two choil shots, which one is which. Both are cleavers.


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## M1k3 (Nov 16, 2021)

Probably the first one. As far as I remember, the old "good ones" were ground with a wider bevel.


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## ian (Nov 16, 2021)

Little hard to compare since the choil shots are taken from different distances, but the top one looks like it'd move through food a little better? Idk, though. These differences are often so slight that it's hard to tell anything from a choil shot.


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## btbyrd (Nov 16, 2021)

Looks like 1) AS, 2) NAS.

I want a Takeda cleaver real bad.


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## Jville (Nov 16, 2021)

ian said:


> Little hard to compare since the choil shots are taken from different distances, but the top one looks like it'd move through food a little better? Idk, though. These differences are often so slight that it's hard to tell anything from a choil shot.


Yeah, it’s a little tricky getting them to focus. So once it got focused, I just took the shot. If you tap and zoom in it kind of negates that. But I’m looking at them on my phone.


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## Pie (Nov 16, 2021)

My guess would be first one AS, second NAS. The first one looks like it’s ground quite wide, playing into the “less wedgy” lore of classic Takeda. Next clue is the s grind, NAS I believe is extra thin in the middle, with a more pronounced hollow. This may be due to the crazy flexiness of the old iron clad ones, as NAS is reported to be stiffer. For the record, new grind NAS does wedge significantly. 

I have 3 NAS takeda, but no classics . That first shot just screams NAS to me. Don’t get me started on how bad I want the cleaver.


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## Jville (Nov 16, 2021)

I think this is a better choil shot.


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## Mlan (Nov 16, 2021)

I am going the opposite way of most and saying the first one is NAS and the second one is AS. I am just basing this off of which one looks most similar to my AS cleaver.


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## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

i just wonder if any of it really matters? dont we all have stones/angle grinders?


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## McMan (Nov 16, 2021)

Let me throw a wrench in the works... There've been a few incarnations of the AS versions regarding grind...


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## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

yeah well i'm not really a pro knife maker or anything. but for me when i'm actually making something, which happens maybe every 6 months or so.
i just cut out a profile, more or less (gotta save some **** to break off to check grain), but then i harden it. rough grind it. 

and i kinda stop where/when i feel its good. i dont actually have a goal. i just know when i'm kinda done for this knife. 
i dont follow any kinda recepie/mold/measurements for this. i just ****ing *DO*, until it looks/feels good. and thats just ****ing it.

i think a lot of these makers do just the same. and thats why you will have some sample variation. no one really gives a ****. 
you want same **** over and over? get a global or misono.


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## why-am-i-bleeding (Nov 16, 2021)

inferno said:


> yeah well i'm not really a pro knife maker or anything.


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## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

exactly


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## ian (Nov 16, 2021)

inferno said:


> yeah well i'm not really a pro knife maker or anything. but for me when i'm actually making something, which happens maybe every 6 months or so.
> i just cut out a profile, more or less (gotta save some **** to break off to check grain), but then i harden it. rough grind it.
> 
> and i kinda stop where/when i feel its good. i dont actually have a goal. i just know when i'm kinda done for this knife.
> ...



Kinda doubt this logic applies to Takeda. They're probably not checking everything with a micrometer, but I bet once they make the first couple hundred knives their process is pretty set. Going about it like you (and I) do is stupid inefficient.


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## inferno (Nov 16, 2021)

yeah who knows. if they wanted to make everything exactly identical they would put these in cnc machines. 0,01mm tolerance each and every part.

i dont want to make **** identical. i mean if i realize that this way is better than that way 5 blades in. should i still keep doing the **** the first way then? 
who does this benefit? no one. 

to be honest i can change my mind *while* i'm ****ing making the knife. to the better.


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## Pie (Nov 16, 2021)

heres a choil shot of an NAS example (gyuto)- note the somewhat chunkier arrowhead sort of grind. Not sure how applicable this is to the cleaver, so i might be more inclined to defer to @Mlan.

In regards to the processes of the specific maker, I recently watched Takeda’s YouTube videos and he’s seems like a pretty fly by the seat of your pants kind of guy. The wild variation in his knives reflects as such. As an enthusiast, there’s a certain thrill in finding/owning something at the end of the spectrum or undeniably unique among its own kind. 

Side note, I can’t even begin to understand the asymmetry that goes on in these things.


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## Mlan (Nov 18, 2021)

Here is a choil shot of my AS Chuka if anybody wants to reference it when comparing.


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## Jville (Nov 22, 2021)

btbyrd said:


> Looks like 1) AS, 2) NAS.
> 
> I want a Takeda cleaver real bad.


Takeda cleavers are becoming my favorite and most used knives. Part of it, is that I cut a lot of bulk onions and peppers, and I find them the best for it. But also they are just very versatile and fun to use. They give you the nimbleness of something like a CCK with magical food release, a tough heat that does not seem to chip, pretty good edge retention, and plenty of blade for scooping. Also, food separation is really good. While I will admit they aren’t as laserish as something like an FM, when you put them up against a lot of workhorse grinds they can be better. And some workhorse grinds that might be more laserish usually don’t have the type of food release. Of course, there are some s grinds out there that are very slippery through product with great release, but imho the Takeda wedging factor gets a little idk, perhaps, exaggerated at times. I understand sone people are going to love them and sone hate them. They are fairly polarizing. Personally, I’m on team love. 

So most of you got it right. The first one is the classic and the second one is the NAS. One thing to keep in mind is that the classic I got used and may have been sharpened(thinned some). When you look at the two in person the differences are quite subtle, but subtle differences can change performance. The bevel on the left(upside down) of the NAS was about 6mm and the classic it was closer to 8mm. The classic is better through real dense product like sweet potatoes. If I was doing a case of them, I could break out the classic but I would probably not break out the NAS. But after a few sharpening of the NAS that may be different. Don’t get me wrong the NAS is not that bad through sweet potatoes, but not good enough to do a lot of them like a case. I find myself reaching more and more for the NAS. The NAS is large and the classic is small. That extra size and the stainless aspect come in handy.


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## tostadas (Nov 22, 2021)

Jville said:


> Takeda cleavers are becoming my favorite and most used knives. Part of it, is that I cut a lot of bulk onions and peppers, and I find them the best for it. But also they are just very versatile and fun to use. They give you the nimbleness of something like a CCK with magical food release, a tough heat that does not seem to chip, pretty good edge retention, and plenty of blade for scooping. Also, food separation is really good. While I will admit they aren’t as laserish as something like an FM, when you put them up against a lot of workhorse grinds they can be better. And some workhorse grinds that might be more laserish usually don’t have the type of food release. Of course, there are some s grinds out there that are very slippery through product with great release, but imho the Takeda wedging factor gets a little idk, perhaps, exaggerated at times. I understand sone people are going to love them and sone hate them. They are fairly polarizing. Personally, I’m on team love.
> 
> So most of you got it right. The first one is the classic and the second one is the NAS. One thing to keep in mind is that the classic I got used and may have been sharpened(thinned some). When you look at the two in person the differences are quite subtle, but subtle differences can change performance. The bevel on the left(upside down) of the NAS was about 6mm and the classic it was closer to 8mm. The classic is better through real dense product like sweet potatoes. If I was doing a case of them, I could break out the classic but I would probably not break out the NAS. But after a few sharpening of the NAS that may be different. Don’t get me wrong the NAS is not that bad through sweet potatoes, but not good enough to do a lot of them like a case. I find myself reaching more and more for the NAS. The NAS is large and the classic is small. That extra size and the stainless aspect come in handy.


Have you taken any measurements behind the edge to see how significant that "arrowhead" change is compared to the classic?


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## Jville (Nov 22, 2021)

tostadas said:


> Have you taken any measurements behind the edge to see how significant that "arrowhead" change is compared to the classic?


No but that is a pretty good idea. I have some digital calipers. I’ll make that happen.


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## tostadas (Nov 22, 2021)

Jville said:


> No but that is a pretty good idea. I have some digital calipers. I’ll make that happen.


5mm/10mm/20mm generally gives me a pretty good idea of how something performs, of course not talking about the little nuances


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## Pie (Nov 22, 2021)

Jville said:


> Takeda cleavers are becoming my favorite and most used knives. Part of it, is that I cut a lot of bulk onions and peppers, and I find them the best for it. But also they are just very versatile and fun to use. They give you the nimbleness of something like a CCK with magical food release, a tough heat that does not seem to chip, pretty good edge retention, and plenty of blade for scooping. Also, food separation is really good. While I will admit they aren’t as laserish as something like an FM, when you put them up against a lot of workhorse grinds they can be better. And some workhorse grinds that might be more laserish usually don’t have the type of food release. Of course, there are some s grinds out there that are very slippery through product with great release, but imho the Takeda wedging factor gets a little idk, perhaps, exaggerated at times. I understand sone people are going to love them and sone hate them. They are fairly polarizing. Personally, I’m on team love.
> 
> So most of you got it right. The first one is the classic and the second one is the NAS. One thing to keep in mind is that the classic I got used and may have been sharpened(thinned some). When you look at the two in person the differences are quite subtle, but subtle differences can change performance. The bevel on the left(upside down) of the NAS was about 6mm and the classic it was closer to 8mm. The classic is better through real dense product like sweet potatoes. If I was doing a case of them, I could break out the classic but I would probably not break out the NAS. But after a few sharpening of the NAS that may be different. Don’t get me wrong the NAS is not that bad through sweet potatoes, but not good enough to do a lot of them like a case. I find myself reaching more and more for the NAS. The NAS is large and the classic is small. That extra size and the stainless aspect come in handy.


Agree with all of this. Harder product is when I pull out something else off the block, but big takeda’s are undeniably useful and fun to use for me. They really are like no other knives.


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## Jville (Nov 22, 2021)

tostadas said:


> 5mm/10mm/20mm generally gives me a pretty good idea of how something performs, of course not talking about the little nuances


So I measured the thickest part of the arrow headish bevel on both. They both measured exactly 1mm. Sometimes the NAS came up as .95 mm. When you look at them in person they look quite similiar. Of course, the classic thickest point was a little higher up.


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## tostadas (Nov 22, 2021)

Jville said:


> So I measured the thickest part of the arrow headish bevel on both. They both measured exactly 1mm. Sometimes the NAS came up as .95 mm. When you look at them in person they look quite similiar. Of course, the classic thickest point was a little higher up.


How far up is the 1mm thickness that you measured? If its not until 10mm or more from the edge, then that's pretty thin, but if it's more like 5mm from the edge, then I'd expect serious wedging.


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## Jville (Nov 23, 2021)

tostadas said:


> How far up is the 1mm thickness that you measured? If its not until 10mm or more from the edge, then that's pretty thin, but if it's more like 5mm from the edge, then I'd expect serious wedging.


So the NAS is about 7.5 mm and the classic about 9.5 mm.


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