# Why all the hype on JNat?



## Martyn (Jan 20, 2021)

Just curious. Wondering what are their advantages compared to manmade whetstones? 
I use whetstones made of white corundum and ceramic and they seem to be working fine. Or am I missing something?


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## GBT-Splint (Jan 20, 2021)

The "hype" is easily explainable by the fact that Jnats have been around and used for hundreds of years and therefore can be referred as the original way, which is super awesome. 
Also they smell like earth, were form millions of years ago, are all unique pieces and leave unique kasumi finishes.


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## Martyn (Jan 20, 2021)

GBT-Splint said:


> The "hype" is easily explainable by the fact that Jnats have been around and used for hundreds of years and therefore can be referred as the original way, which is super awesome.
> Also they smell like earth, were form millions of years ago, are all unique pieces and leave unique kasumi finishes.


so in terms of performance, how do jnats compare to man made stuff?


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## daveb (Jan 20, 2021)

From a strictly sharpening performance viewpoint the syn win hands down. Almost all makers / sharpeners use synthetic over nat.

The right nats can be better polishers. Their strenght is the uniqueness and allowing the user "to become one with the stone".

If I'm sharpening for effectiveness I use synthetic, s&g or soakers depending on knife and preference. If I have plenty of time, and relaxing, and sharpening an appropriate knife, I'll use nats or finish on nats.


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## GBT-Splint (Jan 20, 2021)

Martyn said:


> so in terms of performance, how do jnats compare to man made stuff?


It's more about the experience while sharpening than performance to me.

If you just want to get your knives sharp coticules will do just fine. 
Most people start using Jnats after some time sharpening on synthetics, looking for a new feeling.

Also Jnats are a bit more difficult to use, you have to really understand what you are doing regarding slurry formation and pression on knife which would ultimately take your sharpening skills one step higher.


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## Matt Zilliox (Jan 20, 2021)

Polishing Soft cladding details. Thats it. I think I get better refined edges too. But who knows, no real way to test that.
Really im spending for them because of romance and polishing nuance potential.


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## KKL81 (Jan 20, 2021)

I find mid-grit naturals _easier_ to use as edge finishers on soft stainless butchery knifes.


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## Rangen (Jan 20, 2021)

I really enjoy sharpening, and I find that I enjoy it a lot more on JNats. The feedback can be really expressive in a way I have not found from synthetics, and I think that helps me develop my skills.

Really like the edges I get from them, too, when testing on my thumb, especially with white and blue steels.

They are also much more interesting than synthetics. There's more to learn about your individual stone, and you come to have a relationship with it over time. The smell when sharpening is evocative and individual. JNats seem more likely to have multiple personalities, depending on your use of water, slurry, and pressure.


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## KingShapton (Jan 20, 2021)

Natural stones, not just jnats, can, under certain circumstances, produce a completely different kind of sharpness. Plus, there's a different feeling when sharpening.

Personally, I found what I was looking for in Arkansas stones ... after many attempts.


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## Benuser (Jan 20, 2021)

There are a lot of naturals. Not just Japanese. Some plenty available. A serious problem for an outsider is the opacity of the market when mines are closed and old stocks are hidden.


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## captaincaed (Jan 20, 2021)

At some point, sharpening goes from "wow I'm learning this!" to "huh...this is a bit of a chore." When that moment hit me, I became more interested in naturals (of all origins), for variety and romance. When you want an edge with a subtle difference in bite/refinement for a different task, sometimes a natural will do that job very well (e.g. I like a really toothy, coarse edge for beef jerky, but like a mostly refined, but moderately toothy edge for veggie skins, and I heard raw fish benefits from a highly refined and _slightly_ toothy edge). For a razor, I want a completely toothless, smooth edge with no bite at all. The naturals help with those shades of nuance, especially if it's a repeated cutting task where the enjoyment from a small difference adds up over time. 

I've found simpler carbon steels with minimal alloying and very fine grain structure benefit most (White/Blue/52100/ others?). The following is pure speculation, but a pattern I've noticed: if you've got a steel that's manufactured and treated in a way that leaves larger ____-carbides, you don't get the same benefit from a natural stone - they're not really hard enough to abrade the large carbide chunks embedded in the larger steel matrix. If you were polishing concrete, it's possible to shape it pretty easily. However, embedded rocks (carbides) are a challenge. You can pop them out and leave a hole. If you have a really hard abrasive (diamond, CBN), you can abrade them and leave them sharp as opposed to pulling them out or abrading away all the material around it. But if you have a softer, natural stone, you don't really see the benefit on a highly alloyed steel (in my experience). I think there are some exception stainless steels like AEB-L from a high-quality maker, that can have a very fine grain structure, but I haven't been lucky enough to get my hands on one.

From what I've seen, they're very helpful for a refined, frosty kasumi finish. If all you want is jigane/hagane contrast, a King 1000 will do great, but leave a very visible scratch pattern.



KingShapton said:


> Natural stones, not just jnats, can, under certain circumstances, produce a completely different kind of sharpness. Plus, there's a different feeling when sharpening.
> 
> Personally, I found what I was looking for in Arkansas stones ... after many attempts.


I'd love to know which one you enjoy. I've been experimenting with Arks for a while. Want to love one, but haven't quite landed on one I like for knives. Old black Norton is pretty nice for my razor.

Edit: sorry for the overly long essay. Was sitting through a boring meeting.


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## daveb (Jan 20, 2021)

Was I in the same meeting?


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## Benuser (Jan 20, 2021)

Found a Hard Arkansas providing a refined though very toothy edge. After that only very few strokes needed to remove the last burr remnants with a Hard Black one. Both used with saliva.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 20, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> Natural stones, not just jnats, can, under certain circumstances, produce a completely different kind of sharpness. Plus, there's a different feeling when sharpening.
> 
> Personally, I found what I was looking for in Arkansas stones ... after many attempts.




I've been using Arkansas stones for forty odd years. There are some steels that just do really well off of them. I don't have experience with Blue and White steels as I've long been a pocket and sporting knife guy who used primarily Wusthoff in the kitchen. But I have used them on my BD1N gyuto at 63HRC and VG10 from 58-60HRC and really like the edge. On simple steels I love a soft Arkansas and then strop.

I also love my blacks but just don't use them that much any more as I lean so much to less polished edges. Although, I will likely be playing around with mine on my new knife just to see what I think.



captaincaed said:


> ...
> I'd love to know which one you enjoy. I've been experimenting with Arks for a while. Want to love one, but haven't quite landed on one I like for knives. Old black Norton is pretty nice for my razor.
> 
> Edit: sorry for the overly long essay. Was sitting through a boring meeting.



You may well know but Dan's Whetstones are top of the line. I've also had good luck with Natural Whetstone Company. 

Washitas are essentially gone now or prohibitively expensive. Before I started playing with water stones, I would generally turn to a Crystolon or India if I needed to set an edge and then go to a good soft Ark. While I've never really had a bad soft Ark, I do have a favorite and it was my go-to. I could get by just fine right there and honestly have never warmed up to hard Arks. For me, the beauty is in the softs and the blacks. Well, translucent as well but they are essentially the same as blacks and just cost more.

Sorry to stray OT.


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## Kentos (Jan 20, 2021)

I found straight razors off of Jnats more comfortable and pretty sharp. Stropping on CBN brought the edge up to par with synths. Admittedly rubbing a four nagura progression on the stone is a lot more time consuming than running the razor on a synth progression, but it’s fun when I have the time. Gonna put the jnats to work on the knives soon so from that angle I have no experience, but looking forward to it.


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## JDC (Jan 20, 2021)

Is there hype in JNats? Probably. But when you encounter a good JNat, it's usually unexplainably good... You spend so little effort but achieve so much, in polishing or sharpening.


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 20, 2021)

KKL81 said:


> I find mid-grit naturals _easier_ to use as edge finishers on soft stainless butchery knifes.


Same for me. I have stainless knives and I find burr removal more difficult on synthetic stones. They're too fast, and unless you're super consistent and go heel-tip on every pass, it's likely that more burr will pop up while you're trying to reduce burr someplace else. For finishers the slowness of a natural stone is an advantage, and allows you to hone rather than sharpen.

I could improve my technique, but I'm a home cook sharpening once every few months, and I'm just not that invested. You could ask the same question about carbon knives - why the hype? And it would boil down to the same answers: aesthetics, specialness, and they're both more forgiving of mediocre sharpening technique.


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## captaincaed (Jan 20, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Found a Hard Arkansas providing a refined though very toothy edge. After that only very few strokes needed to remove the last burr remnants with a Hard Black one. Both used with saliva.


Still missing a hard ark. Back to the hardware store.


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## Badgertooth (Jan 20, 2021)

I think about the best analogy is digital music vs Vinyl. There’s a certain romance and some stuff only jnats can do.


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## ian (Jan 20, 2021)

Martyn said:


> Wondering what are their advantages compared to manmade whetstones?



They are more expensive.


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## KingShapton (Jan 21, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I'd love to know which one you enjoy. I've been experimenting with Arks for a while. Want to love one, but haven't quite landed on one I like for knives. Old black Norton is pretty nice for my razor.


It's also difficult to find the right ark.
At the end of the day, we're talking about natural stones and each stone can be slightly different.

I have had good experiences with Norton's NOS stock, as well as with Dan's, and sometimes with RH Preyda. I also tried Natural Whetstone Company but based on my own experience I cannot recommend this seller.



HumbleHomeCook said:


> For me, the beauty is in the softs and the blacks.


That is also the case with me. With the black arks there are still differences, depending on the desired result (suitable for the application) you have to find the right one.

I'm still looking for the right Hart Arkansas, but it won't be anything this year. My shoulder surgery 8 months ago was a success, which means that I will be investing significantly more money in my home gym this year than in stones. And I'm very happy about that too.


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## simar (Jan 21, 2021)

Some like the edge you can get off a jnat, others like to spend the time polishing on a jnat for varied finishes you can get.


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## Barry's Knives (Jan 21, 2021)

Natural stones leave very different edges to synths imo. You can have something extremely refined but toothy. Toothy edges tend to bite into product easier and stay sharper longer. You can effortlessly shave whilst also gliding through tomato skins. Naturals last substantially longer than synths too. When I first got a suita I thought it was far coarser than it was because of how toothy the edge was, but when I actually used the knife I immediately saw how good it was. I agree they work best on simpler steels, but I'm surprised not more people have this experience with the actual difference in sharpness and edge performance.


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## ian (Jan 21, 2021)

Barry's Knives said:


> You can have something extremely refined but toothy.


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## Barry's Knives (Jan 21, 2021)

ian said:


> View attachment 110843


Exactly!


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## Garm (Jan 21, 2021)

I agree with @spaceconvoy regarding burr removal and characteristics of the burr.
Even on very fast cutting Jnats, like a Shobu I have, burr production, reduction, and removal is very different from any synthetic fine stone I've tried.

Many people talk about toothy yet refined edges. I agree they feel and act a little different, but I would say grabby more than toothy. Personally, I think it has more to do with the surface texture on the edge rather than teeth at the very apex.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 21, 2021)

There are definitely ways in which synths are better than jnats: thinning, faster sharpening.

I enjoy jnats for several reasons: 

1. toothier yet refined edges (as already discussed);
2. less clogging, in general;
3. less dishing, in general;
4. tend to raise a smaller burr (easier deburring - more life out of the blade);
5. they usually are S&G;
6. better at polishing.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 22, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> Natural stones, not just jnats, can, under certain circumstances, produce a completely different kind of sharpness. Plus, there's a different feeling when sharpening.
> 
> Personally, I found what I was looking for in Arkansas stones ... after many attempts.


Really? I haven't had a chance to try Arkansas stones. Do you use them with oil?


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## jwthaparc (Jan 22, 2021)

ian said:


> View attachment 110843


Now I want a new tattoo


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 22, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Really? I haven't had a chance to try Arkansas stones. Do you use them with oil?



Yes. Some people say they are okay with water, others use soapy water, but mineral oil is the absolute best for Arkansas stones. It will keep the swarf floating and some will soak into the surface to help prevent clogging. Honing oil is the best as it is highly refined mineral oil and has almost no resistance when sharpening.


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## Rangen (Jan 22, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Yes. Some people say they are okay with water, others use soapy water, but mineral oil is the absolute best for Arkansas stones. It will keep the swarf floating and some will soak into the surface to help prevent clogging. Honing oil is the best as it is highly refined mineral oil and has almost no resistance when sharpening.



This is good to know. I've been sitting on a small Arkansas combo stone I got in BST with another stone I wanted. I absolutely intended to sharpen on it, but I got some "honing oil" and I just cannot stand the awful smell of the stuff. I thought I had to use it. Mineral oil is no problem, being odorless. But why would highly refined mineral oil stink, if the less-exalted version does not?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 22, 2021)

Rangen said:


> This is good to know. I've been sitting on a small Arkansas combo stone I got in BST with another stone I wanted. I absolutely intended to sharpen on it, but I got some "honing oil" and I just cannot stand the awful smell of the stuff. I thought I had to use it. Mineral oil is no problem, being odorless. But why would highly refined mineral oil stink, if the less-exalted version does not?



It shouldn't. I've never had honing oil that had an odor. Try some Norton or Smith brand.

You can also use laxative grade mineral oil from the pharmacy section of the grocery store. It's thicker and alright for courser grits but you do lose feedback as you move up but it will work.


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## KingShapton (Jan 23, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Really? I haven't had a chance to try Arkansas stones. Do you use them with oil?


I use petroleum


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## KingShapton (Jan 23, 2021)

Rangen said:


> but I got some "honing oil" and I just cannot stand the awful smell of the stuff.


Honing oil shouldn't have an unpleasant smell. I don't know whether honing oil can go rancid or bad, but I wouldn't use that anymore!


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## Rangen (Feb 3, 2021)

Random thoughts left over from this thread.

- Part of the appeal of JNats, for me is this: When I get a synthetic stone, my feeling is that I need to learn what it is good for. When I get a JNat, my feeling is that I need to live up to it. Could be just me.
- My stinky honing oil, now in a landfill, was "Dan's Honing Oil," bought from Amazon so conceivably suspect. The reason I assumed it was normal was that it was the exact smell of what my Boy Scout mentor used to sharpen his pocketknife. Mineral oil can't go bad, so I assume it's the smell of whatever was used to thin it out. 

I remember buying my Boy Scout knife at the store. I decided to get the "best" one, and paid $1 extra for the stainless steel version. At some point, I noticed that the others' carbon steel knives were just better.

I had to learn the lesson over again; stainless steels have gotten much better since then, but I still prefer simple carbon steels for most uses.


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