# I am not the main person in the kikchen



## Bolek (Dec 8, 2014)

I do not want to argue on the Is freehand sharpening worth it? thread so I start a new one. I like knifes for years but I just started to by some high end steel (AUS10, VG10, ZDP189) knifes.
My wife is make 90% cooking at home  so I only do 10%. She do not use my knifes. The deal is: the cheap Pradel SS set (15 for a wooden block with 5 knifes) can go through dishwasher, the Global knifes waits to be hand washed by me. Up to now no chips nor rusting, so it is the way to go.
Then I sharpen Pradel knifes every two days, and Global (RHC 57) twice a month, my VG10 knifes every 3 months and I have not yet sharpen my ZDP189 knifes. That is to explain that my sharpening set is only adapted to my needs, Japanese stones being far betters for a standard KKF man (or women:O). I sharpen on Spyderco ceramics (mostly fine but also medium and ultrafine) with no wear and then no stone flattering; or on ceramic steels (one from IKEA and the EP 1200 grit one). I urge knifes on the ceramic with little pressure and get quite sharp edge.
My questions :1. I do not get a bur being at the apex. Is there a problem?
2. How can I improve cheap knifes sharpening? 
3. Do you recommend micro bevel on said cheap knifes ? What is the difference between micro bevel and double bevel?
TIA


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## mhpr262 (Dec 8, 2014)

if you do not get a burr, you may not have fully reached the apex.

Sharpening every two days seems abit excessive, I'm thinking you might make your life a lot easier by getting a smooth polishing steel (F. Dick "Dickoron") or Idahone or other brand ceramic honing rod. I think your edge is just rolled after two days, not worn.

Micro bevel serves to make the very apex more rugged to prevent microchipping in very hard blades. Double bevel thins the edge behind the "real" bevel so the knife won't wedge so much. In principle it's the same, just grinding at two different angles. Both serve different purposes though.


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## James (Dec 8, 2014)

Sharpie along the bevel should show you where you're sharpening and if you need to change your angles


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## CoqaVin (Dec 8, 2014)

sharpening stainless is a PITA


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## Zwiefel (Dec 8, 2014)

James said:


> Sharpie along the bevel should show you where you're sharpening and if you need to change your angles





CoqaVin said:


> sharpening stainless is a PITA



Both of these.


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## Timthebeaver (Dec 8, 2014)

Sharpening decent stainless is nowhere like the chore some like to make out it is.


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## daveb (Dec 8, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> sharpening cheapass, wallyworld, stainless is a PITA



Fixed that for you Vin.


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## CoqaVin (Dec 8, 2014)

Was just about to say that, thank you sir, but there are alternatives to sharpening them, like and Arkansas stone


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## psfred (Dec 8, 2014)

Very hard stones and soft stainless can be a problem as a very large burr can form that is difficult to remove, it's quite soft and will bend back and forth but not break off. I've seen this, and it's a real pain.

Use a black Sharpie, and I also recommend a magnifier of some sort to examine the edge. A 20x loupe will let to easily see if you have actually reached the apex and if there is a burr or folded edge. Being able to see the edge will take much of the guesswork out of sharpening.

I'd not be surprised that you felt the need to sharpen inexpensive stainless steel knives every couple days. Being run through the dishwasher won't help, either. I only get a few uses out of my Chicago Cutlery knives before they start to show shiny spots, and I need to sharpen every couple weeks. Used every day, probably at least once a week to keep a decent edge.

A smooth honing rod will help quite a bit, but it won't actually sharpen the edge, just push it back up where it belongs.

I definitely prefer my Tojiro and Korean gyutos to cheap stainless.....

Peter


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## daveb (Dec 8, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> ... but there are alternatives to sharpening them, like and Arkansas stone



Or round filing them....:cool2:


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## LKH9 (Dec 8, 2014)

I've explained enough before and also got heavily shot down. I will always modify the crap factory edge from crap stainless and give them a double-bevel, after that I will only need to touch that microbevel to sharpen again or touch-up. Sharpen maybe every 3 days for home use. I will be happy to show you face to face, words can't explain certain things. Sharpening for friends and family is the case. Sharpening knives or maintaning tools is a man's job.


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## labor of love (Dec 9, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> I've explained enough before and also got heavily shot down. I will always modify the crap factory edge from crap stainless and give them a double-bevel, after that I will only need to touch that microbevel to sharpen again or touch-up. Sharpen maybe every 3 days for home use. I will be happy to show you face to face, words can't explain certain things. Sharpening for friends and family is the case. Sharpening knives or maintaning tools is a man's job.



Do you mean like $20-30 knives when you say "crap stainless"? I understand the benefits of tweaking a bad factory edge and awful geometry. But is it really worth investing your time and effort into such a project for a very cheap knife? Whenever I thin and sharpen my knives I feel like im maintaining an investment Ive made...Most knives Ive owned are in the $200-$400 range, and very often I find $100ish knives that are well made enough to justify the attention also. But with something like a cheap stainless dexter for example, thinning that steel would take quite a while to get it nice. It just seems to me that the labor of tweaking a cheap knife would would outweigh the value of the knife itself.


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## LKH9 (Dec 9, 2014)

By crap I mean 2$ stuff, it's more crap than the craps that you think are crap. These knives are usually very thin bladed, so it's not hard. Double-bevelling is the only way to make these useable at all. I even grind stainless cleavers like this, stainless cleavers are the most painful thing to freehand. It's a lifelong practice, it's my hobby afterall. It's not a chore when you enjoy it.

It's impossible to find a 30$ kitchen knife here unless you order through the net, cuz the majority won't buy an expensive knife. 100$+ knife to me is already the best. My most beloved Shimatani yanagiba is 150$, merely a collection item.


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## Bolek (Dec 9, 2014)

mhpr262 said:


> if you do not get a burr, you may not have fully reached the apex.
> 
> Sharpening every two days seems abit excessive, I'm thinking you might make your life a lot easier by getting a smooth polishing steel (F. Dick "Dickoron") or Idahone or other brand ceramic honing rod. I think your edge is just rolled after two days, not worn.
> 
> Micro bevel serves to make the very apex more rugged to prevent microchipping in very hard blades. Double bevel thins the edge behind the "real" bevel so the knife won't wedge so much. In principle it's the same, just grinding at two different angles. Both serve different purposes though.



Thanks, all.
1.My English is not good enough to be fully understand. Ill be as clear as I can. Up to now I have no pb to sharpen good knifes, i.e. they are sharp enough. In the future Ill have to learn how to fine them.
I love my wife, so changing wife is not an option. My wife SHALL put HER knifes in the dishwasher. It is better for my mental health that the knifes washed in the dishwasher get as little damages as possible and that they are crap enough to avoid any heart attack. This lead directly to my wifes full steel (handle included) Pradel set (15 for an office, a petty, a slicer, a bread and a chef knifes + a nice block). At the same time my wife wants sharp knives. Conclusion : I shall sharpen her knives as son as needed i.e. every couples of days for the office and the petty.
2.My first level sharpening (big touch up) is done with my ceramic rods. The Edge Pro rod is a #1200 so I call it honing rod. BTW the edge wear quit quick. An optical inspection with a magnifier do not show any rolling.
3. « In principle it's the same but in practice what is the difference between the micro bevel and double bevel ? I sharpen at about 30°; should I make a 40° micro bevel ? What length do it have ?


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## Bolek (Dec 9, 2014)

James said:


> Sharpie along the bevel should show you where you're sharpening and if you need to change your angles


Thanks for the advise but : I know where I am sharpening. I do not know where I have to. In other words I can reproduce the angle/ bevel which is on the edge. I do not know what angel/angels are the best for MY very special needs.


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## Bolek (Dec 9, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> sharpening stainless is a PITA


What does PITA means (google translation : flat hollow unleavened bread that can be split open to hold a filling) ?


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## Timthebeaver (Dec 9, 2014)

pain in the a$$.


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## Bolek (Dec 9, 2014)

psfred said:


> Very hard stones and soft stainless can be a problem as a very large burr can form that is difficult to remove, it's quite soft and will bend back and forth but not break off. I've seen this, and it's a real pain.
> 
> Use a black Sharpie, and I also recommend a magnifier of some sort to examine the edge. A 20x loupe will let to easily Being able to see the edge will take much of the guesswork out of sharpening.
> 
> ...


I use a x5 (big) x10 smal and x 20 magnifiers. I see that I have actually reached the apex and that there is no burr nor folded edge. I rather sharpen/hone every 2 days than let the knives be dull. Then it takes much more trouble to sharpen them.


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## Bolek (Dec 9, 2014)

daveb said:


> Or round filing them....:cool2:


What does it mean ?


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## Bolek (Dec 9, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> I've explained enough before and also got heavily shot down. I will always modify the crap factory edge from crap stainless and give them a double-bevel, after that I will only need to touch that microbevel to sharpen again or touch-up. Sharpen maybe every 3 days for home use. I will be happy to show you face to face, words can't explain certain things. Sharpening for friends and family is the case. Sharpening knives or maintaning tools is a man's job.





Both of us have specific needs not corresponding to the mainstream of this forum. At the same time I got such a friendly and useful help (first by reading then by asking and being replied). Ill not hesitate in the future to here come here and ask to improve the sharpening of my premium steel knives but up to now I am interested in experience with sharpening crap knives and in this field your experience (or at least your understanding of MY problems)is higher than that of the expert of sharpening of real knives.:wink:
The factory bevel was about 40°. Now it is about 30°. What bevel / micro bevel is good for me ?


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## Bolek (Dec 9, 2014)

labor of love said:


> It just seems to me that the labor of tweaking a cheap knife would would outweigh the value of the knife itself.


Yes but it make my wife hapy and as her knives are sharp enough she do not take my knives (avoiding them the dishwasher torture). BTW said Pradelsknives are quite thin (but not laser thin).


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## Bolek (Dec 9, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> pain in the a$$.


I'll improuve my English here :laugh:


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Dec 9, 2014)

Bolek said:


> Thanks for the advise but : I know where I am sharpening. I do not know where I have to. In other words I can reproduce the angle/ bevel which is on the edge. I do not know what angel/angels are the best for MY very special needs.


There could be nothing wrong with your sharpening technique. Maybe the steel on your wife's knives is just that soft and can't stay sharp longer then 2 days. You could lower the angle and see if it helps. Using a steel instead of stones might also save you some time. Also you could watch how your wife cut to get an idea about all the abuse that her knives have to withstand. 

I was in the similar position a year ago, but only when I started cooking myself more, my wife started listening to my advices about cutting technique and proper knives care. So maybe it would work for you as well: use your good knives when she can see you


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## LKH9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Bolek said:


> Both of us have specific needs not corresponding to the mainstream of this forum. At the same time I got such a friendly and useful help (first by reading then by asking and being replied). Ill not hesitate in the future to here come here and ask to improve the sharpening of my premium steel knives but up to now I am interested in experience with sharpening crap knives and in this field your experience (or at least your understanding of MY problems)is higher than that of the expert of sharpening of real knives.:wink:
> The factory bevel was about 40°. Now it is about 30°. What bevel / micro bevel is good for me ?



I don't exactly know the angle, but I use a disposable chopstick to measure. Rest the stick at the spine of your knife and grind from that angle. For the micro bevel, I use an officepaper clip to replace the chopstick.

The reason I use these is because I always take the blade up from the stone to make sureI don't overgrind the steel. And after taking the knife up, I lose the angle. Now this is where the "angle guides" will help. This is my own way of sharpening knives. 

Ok, measured the clip for the sake of you. It's 20/20, the microbevel.. Don't worry too much about cheap knives, they dull like no tomorrow the moment it touches stuff. You have to sharpen very often anyway.

Do you strop with metal polishing compound? Want to add that silicon carbide stone is a good friend to these crap knives.


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## daveb (Dec 9, 2014)

Bolek said:


> What does it mean ?



Round File

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=round+file

An easy alternative to sharpening cheap stainless.

Pita

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pita

The urban dictionary will "improve" your English quick.:angel2:


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## Bolek (Dec 9, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> There could be nothing wrong with your sharpening technique. Maybe the steel on your wife's knives is just that soft and can't stay sharp longer then 2 days. You could lower the angle and see if it helps. Using a steel instead of stones might also save you some time. Also you could watch how your wife cut to get an idea about all the abuse that her knives have to withstand.
> 
> I was in the similar position a year ago, but only when I started cooking myself more, my wife started listening to my advices about cutting technique and proper knives care. So maybe it would work for you as well: use your good knives when she can see you


She is cuting on wood, plastic or bamboo cuting board. She scraps but it is OK with her knives. I avoid scraping and bamboo bords. I use my knives with her. She thinks that my knives are too big and not robust enough.
So not getting a bur is OK as long as the knife is sharp ?


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## Bolek (Dec 9, 2014)

daveb said:


> Round File
> 
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=round+file
> 
> ...



Thanks it is interesting.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Dec 9, 2014)

Bolek said:


> So not getting a bur is OK as long as the knife is sharp ?


nope. Burr should be there. If it's not there, or if's not consistent, then you probably aren't hitting the edge, or don't provide enough pressure, or don't spend enough time sharpening (hint for using coarser stone)


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## gregg (Dec 11, 2014)

Bolek said:


> She is cuting on wood, plastic or bamboo cuting board. She scraps but it is OK with her knives. I avoid scraping and bamboo bords. I use my knives with her. She thinks that my knives are too big and not robust enough.
> So not getting a bur is OK as long as the knife is sharp ?




I do a fair few of these for kitchen staff here in france. They don't hold up for long unless you really go high on the bevel angle. I don't like to, but the guys usually want to wait a month between sharpenings! (The opposite of deep pockets £$!) I actually take them right up to 25° per side, (I know, I know), and they don't seem to worried about the reduced performance. Maybe if your wife had to pay, she wouldn't "_need_" them so sharp all the time. :cool2:.

By the way, even at 1000 grit JIS, they raise a huge burr!


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## Bolek (Dec 21, 2014)

Honing on ceramic steel and stroping on cardboard helped a lot. Thanks for advises.


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