# Naniwa Chosera 3000 cracking?



## tbott

Soooooooo what gives? Seem to be getting hairline cracks in the stone. There also seems to be some kind of dark spot/stain in the other side. I treat it exactly the same as my Chosera 1000, and nothing has happened to that stone. Am I doing something wrong? I soak the stone for about 30 minutes, flatten probably every other time I use it with a DMT XX course, and when I'm done I let the stones dry completely. Any suggestions would be nice, not trying to destroy an expensive stone. Thanks!

T


----------



## tagheuer

There was a recent discussion about the same topic recently.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/16295-Snow-white-developing-loads-of-cracks

See Dave's suggestions in post #5 and #11.


----------



## bahamaroot

Seems to be becoming a more common problem with Chocera.


----------



## Dave Martell

I'm positive that these problems (cracking Choseras) are due in great part to them being baseless. You see the based version was all that was sold until an fake surgeon (AKA - an idiot) came along and convinced the first US retailer to order a batch of baseless Choseras. This then set the precedence of baseless Naniwas being sold in the US as demand (and competition) was high. Now the customers are paying the price of the stupidity of others.

These stones flex and warp and even disintegrate if soaked long enough. They are so much more stable if mounted to a base. Only order Choseras that are mounted on a base OR mount them immediately!


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

Dave Martell said:


> I'm positive that these problems (cracking Choseras) are due in great part to them being baseless. You see the based version was all that was sold until an fake surgeon (AKA - an idiot) came along and convinced the first US retailer to order a batch of baseless Choseras. This then set the precedence of baseless Naniwas being sold in the US as demand (and competition) was high. Now the customers are paying the price of the stupidity of others.
> 
> These stones flex and warp and even disintegrate if soaked long enough. They are so much more stable if mounted to a base. Only order Choseras that are mounted on a base OR mount them immediately!



Dave, is that also true of the Superstones?


----------



## Dreezzzzz

The Chosera's are splash and go stones. They should not be soaked. I know some people think it works better when soaked. According to the vender I bought them knives & tools. Dutch branch of Eden webshop Naniwa states these stones should not be soaked. This could explain the cracking. The 3000 seems to be softer than the 1000. This could explain the 3000 crash cracking earlier. 
Off coarse I haven't sold them like Dave, so mounting sounds like a "stable" thing to do! All my chosera's are with a base


Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


----------



## Benuser

The base won't prevent them from cracking, but will make the consequences less dramatic.


----------



## Ruso

I've seen a lot of posts about choseras cracking. So seems like a common thing. The only one that seems to be less likely to crack is Chosera 800. I would follow Dave advice and mount it. For myself I made a decision that if I buy another chosera (unlikely atm) it will be a mounted one.



> Dave, is that also true of the Superstones?


While Dave will have better info. Superstones seems to be pretty crack resistant. Do not soak them for more then 5 minutes though.


----------



## Dreezzzzz

I read this on Fine-Tools:

IMPORTANT NOTE on storage and lubrication: Chosera sharpening stones are bound with magnesium and so have more cutting particles per unit of surface than resin-bound stones. But magnesium-bound stones are much more sensitive to prolonged exposure to water as other types of stones. So Chosera stones should NOT be left to soak in water for prolonged periods and must be stored dry. If this advice is not followed the stones can develop hairline cracks or the binding material can be leached out of the stone. It is more than enough to pour a little water on the surface or briefly dip the stones in water, they do not need to be soaked. If you are not sure that you can keep this always in mind, perhaps because you have a number of different kinds of sharpening stones, it may be better to opt for the more tolerant Super Stones. 

From a other forum I read that it could also be caused by not drying evenly. To prevent the outside drying much faster than the inside you can dry the stone with a microfiber cloth after sharpening. Then wrap the stone with this damp cloth to prevent the outside drying much faster.

You should flatten your stone to get rid of the hairlines and stop them getting any bigger


----------



## Dave Martell

Dave Martell said:


> I'm positive that these problems (cracking Choseras) are due in great part to them being baseless. You see the based version was all that was sold until an fake surgeon (AKA - an idiot) came along and convinced the first US retailer to order a batch of baseless Choseras. This then set the precedence of baseless Naniwas being sold in the US as demand (and competition) was high. Now the customers are paying the price of the stupidity of others.
> 
> These stones flex and warp and even disintegrate if soaked long enough. They are so much more stable if mounted to a base. Only order Choseras that are mounted on a base OR mount them immediately!





Pensacola Tiger said:


> Dave, is that also true of the Superstones?




I can't recall ever hearing about a Superstone cracking although maybe I have and just forgot, sure doesn't ring a bell as being a problem like the Choseras are.


----------



## tbott

Thanks all! I'm glad this seems to be a recurring problem and not just user stupidity (though there's still some of that). I'll work on getting it mounted. Can one buy empty bases and just glue them one, or is the same time and effort to just make one? Also I'll stop soaking them. Is the DMT xx coarse too rough to flatten a 3000 grit stone? Should I look for something finer? I'm about to make a higher grit stone purchase, and I think I'll opt for the 5000 super stone instead of Chosera. Thanks for all the help!

T


----------



## berko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4i8W3ZGgHE


----------



## Dave Martell

berko said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4i8W3ZGgHE




Thanks for posting this.


----------



## bahamaroot

*tbott - "* I soak the stone for about 30 minutes." 

Choceras are suppose to be slash-n-go, I think people are soaking them to long. To many long soaking and long drying sessions.


----------



## Drayquan

I had this for a few weeks then this happened. I never soaked it, and I let it dry properly after using.


----------



## Knife2meatu

Drayquan said:


> I had this for a few weeks then this happened. I never soaked it, and I let it dry properly after using. [snip]



That's sucks.

Out of curiousity, what's the date printed on the stone? How long were your sharpening sessions? How, exactly, did you let it dry?

In the second picture, at the bottom of the stone, where there's a gap between the base and the stone, it looks a little shiny and there's what looks like a dark line made by water/slurry coming off the stone -- would you say that liquid pooled there and soaked into the stone for prolonged periods?


----------



## Grunt173

I have a Chosera 400,800 and 3k pros and they have all cracked. Have only just briefly splashed and go,no soaking whatsoever.I have three more,a 400,800 and a 3k but they have the base and have never been out of the box yet.Don't know if they will be either.Might even end up selling them if I get the notion.


----------



## Drayquan

Knife2meatu said:


> That's sucks.
> 
> How, exactly, did you let it dry?
> 
> In the second picture, at the bottom of the stone, where there's a gap between the base and the stone, it looks a little shiny and there's what looks like a dark line made by water/slurry coming off the stone -- would you say that liquid pooled there and soaked into the stone for prolonged periods?



I treated this as a finishing stone for everyday stainless, so it really didn’t get that much use before these cracks appeared. Just light burr removal, light edge refinement / stropping on this one.

I did use it on some higher end carbon blades 62-64hrc as a progression towards 8k, but even then it was used gently, with a little squeeze bottle of water to splash n’ go.

After using it, I’d dab it with a dry towel (not rub, just lightly dab), then store it on a shelf at room temperature.

I suppose it’s possible that moisture may have pooled slightly in that bottom area of the chosera plastic base around the edges.


----------



## Nemo

Out of interest, was the stone sealed?


----------



## Drayquan

Do sharpeners “seal” stones? Is that a thing? What kind of sealant?


----------



## kdeleon

Drayquan said:


> Do sharpeners “seal” stones? Is that a thing? What kind of sealant?


I haven't done it with artificial stones but with naturals, I know many use shellac to prevent cracking.


----------



## Drayquan

Shellac around the base/sides of the stone? I can’t imagine anyone using shellac on a chosera’s surface....?


----------



## kdeleon

Drayquan said:


> Shellac around the base/sides of the stone? I can’t imagine anyone using shellac on a chosera’s surface....?



Correct, side and base. Well this one has the plastic base so that side is covered. And yes, not the surface.


----------



## Knife2meatu

kdeleon said:


> [...] this one has the plastic base so that side is covered. [...]


I think a lot of the problem is the adhesive under the stones doesn't actually cover the entire surface. Every Chosera/Superstone which I've removed from their base has had, at most, maybe 50% of the interface covered in adhesive: the adhesive is applied along the long axis of the stone, toward the center; and has some significant thickness, perhaps 1/32". So there's a void along the edges of the undersides of the stones, where water will enter, remain, and absorb into the stone unless some little effort is made to remove it. This is compounded by the small lip molded around the top of the base, which catches water.

Furthermore, from what I've seen, Naniwa's production process always places the stones off-center prior to gluing; which means that although one side is right against the lip, the other side has a wider opening. This wider-open side happens to be the one above pictured.

Now consider how the stone dries if water pools under it -- it will have time to thoroughly soak in, and dry very slowly -- while the top, most exposed to air, has water drawn down and away from it by gravity: the top will be totally dry as the bottom will still be quite saturated. Or so it seems to me, anyway.

For what it's worth, I've been using Choseras with bases (400 to 5000 + baseless 8k Snow White) for around 18 months now, systematically drying them upside down, and have seen virtually not a single sign of even minor crazing -- the single exception being a tiny spider web once on my 3K.


----------



## Nemo

I sealed mine with marine grade lacquer. It would have sealed the interface between the base and the sides. I have had zero cracking (but I don't know whether the sealing is responsible for this or not).


----------



## kdeleon

Knife2meatu said:


> I think a lot of the problem is the adhesive under the stones doesn't actually cover the entire surface. Every Chosera/Superstone which I've removed from their base has had, at most, maybe 50% of the interface covered in adhesive: the adhesive is applied along the long axis of the stone, toward the center; and has some significant thickness, perhaps 1/32". So there's a void along the edges of the undersides of the stones, where water will enter, remain, and absorb into the stone unless some little effort is made to remove it. This is compounded by the small lip molded around the top of the base, which catches water.
> 
> Furthermore, from what I've seen, Naniwa's production process always places the stones off-center prior to gluing; which means that although one side is right against the lip, the other side has a wider opening. This wider-open side happens to be the one above pictured.
> 
> Now consider how the stone dries if water pools under it -- it will have time to thoroughly soak in, and dry very slowly -- while the top, most exposed to air, has water drawn down and away from it by gravity: the top will be totally dry as the bottom will still be quite saturated. Or so it seems to me, anyway.
> 
> For what it's worth, I've been using Choseras with bases (400 to 5000 + baseless 8k Snow White) for around 18 months now, systematically drying them upside down, and have seen virtually not a single sign of even minor crazing -- the single exception being a tiny spider web once on my 3K.



I have two of their stones and haven't tried to seal it. Actually didn't even know cracking was a problem for these stones until I started seeing these threads. But how did you remove the base? I would think, for me, that would introduce more risk of cracking than just chancing it as is.

Finally, I do dry my stones out on their sides. So I wonder if that helps some of the pooling issues you mention. Maybe at least partially.


----------



## Grunt173

I also stack and dry my baseless pro choseras on their sides in a drying rack,still cracked. I have since started drying my Choseras with a damp towel around them so the drying is slowed down and evenly dried, hoping that it helps.


----------



## kwk1

Nemo said:


> I sealed mine with marine grade lacquer. It would have sealed the interface between the base and the sides. I have had zero cracking (but I don't know whether the sealing is responsible for this or not).


Lacquer sounds like a good idea.
I wonder if silicone would work around the base.


----------



## Knife2meatu

Seeing this thread pop back up reminds me of something I saw a couple months back, related to Japanese Youtube sharpening enthusiast virtuovice, whose cracking Choseras it was which were mentioned higher up in this thread:


berko said:


>



I was watching one of his recent Japanese videos (www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-GEZmNIMf4&feature=youtu.be&t=423) and noticed that his green Shapton 2k has some pretty significant cracking running across its surface:




It doesn't seem to hurt his use of the stone too much however. He follows up the 2k Shapton with a 3k Chosera which also shows significant cracking, but occurring in more of a spider web pattern which I recognize from my own Choseras.


----------



## Nemo

kwk1 said:


> Lacquer sounds like a good idea.
> I wonder if silicone would work around the base.


The lacquer seems to do a good enough job.


----------



## kwk1

Nemo said:


> The lacquer seems to do a good enough job.


Just might go the lacquer route, thanks.


----------



## Nemo

kwk1 said:


> Just might go the lacquer route, thanks.


I advise thar you put masking tape over top surface of the stone first.


----------



## chinacats

Nemo said:


> I sealed mine with marine grade lacquer. It would have sealed the interface between the base and the sides. I have had zero cracking (but I don't know whether the sealing is responsible for this or not).




I think this says it all... either remount the chosera corerectly, mount it yourself or buy different stones.


----------



## kwk1

Nemo said:


> I advise thar you put masking tape over top surface of the stone first.


Good advice.


----------



## LucasFur

mounting wont really do much ... it will still have water get in ... into the cracks at the top of the stone where your sharpening no? 

Mounting and lacquer are from the natural stone world i would say ... lacquer is to protect the side strata from getting water in and mounting is to have a flat surface when sharpening if it wont fit in a stone holder. 

My 4k lobster naniwa stone split in half about a month ago. Those cracks eventually go through the stone and will cause it to split. 
Im not sure if sealing the sides that arent used for sharpening will help ... because it will leave the water in the stone to dissolve the binder longer. OR to leave it and continue with the cracking issue. 
real problem is with my 10K naniwa Chosera ... it has serious cracking ... but i love the stone. 

-L


----------



## kwk1

LucasFur said:


> mounting wont really do much ... it will still have water get in ... into the cracks at the top of the stone where your sharpening no?
> 
> Mounting and lacquer are from the natural stone world i would say ... lacquer is to protect the side strata from getting water in and mounting is to have a flat surface when sharpening if it wont fit in a stone holder.
> 
> My 4k lobster naniwa stone split in half about a month ago. Those cracks eventually go through the stone and will cause it to split.
> Im not sure if sealing the sides that arent used for sharpening will help ... because it will leave the water in the stone to dissolve the binder longer. OR to leave it and continue with the cracking issue.
> real problem is with my 10K naniwa Chosera ... it has serious cracking ... but i love the stone.
> 
> -L


Got my stones, they are mounted against 2 sides with gaps on the other 2 sides as was mentioned here.
They look good.
I think I am going to use them as is, and just rest them on end with a damp towel over them to dry.


----------



## GoodMagic

I sealed mine with polyfinish (didnt have shellac). Will see what happen, but so far so good.


----------



## kwk1

GoodMagic said:


> I sealed mine with polyfinish (didnt have shellac). Will see what happen, but so far so good.


Maybe changing my mind.
I don't have anything on hand.
Would this stuff work?
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/armor-coat-spar-varnish-0489829p.html


----------



## Grunt173

kwk1 said:


> Maybe changing my mind.
> I don't have anything on hand.
> Would this stuff work?
> https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/armor-coat-spar-varnish-0489829p.html


That should work just fine.According to what is written on the can it is a Marine grade varnish and a marine grade varnish is what is usually recommended. I'd go with it if it were me.


----------



## GoodMagic

Yes that will work fine. Make sure the stone is dry when you seal it and put on 4 coats at least, letting it dry in between. Good luck!


----------



## kwk1

Grunt173 said:


> That should work just fine.According to what is written on the can it is a Marine grade varnish and a marine grade varnish is what is usually recommended. I'd go with it if it were me.


Thanks!


GoodMagic said:


> Yes that will work fine. Make sure the stone is dry when you seal it and put on 4 coats at least, letting it dry in between. Good luck!


Will tape up the tops and go 4 coats.
Thanks!


----------



## Nemo

FWIW, I only used 2 coats and it's been fine.


----------



## Grunt173

I did 5 coats of lacquer on my J-Nats and it dried fast between coats. Varnish takes considerably longer but make sure it is totally dry before you add any more coats.


----------



## inferno

LucasFur said:


> Im not sure if sealing the sides that arent used for sharpening will help ... because it will leave the water in the stone to dissolve the binder longer. OR to leave it and continue with the cracking issue.
> real problem is with my 10K naniwa Chosera ... it has serious cracking ... but i love the stone.
> 
> -L



I'm thinking the same! Or maybe there some known unknowns at work here? Maybe the stone dries more evenly or something if water can only evaporate from one single side?

Too bad about your 10k. Thats like 250 bux down the drain. I got my shappro 12k for about 85 €-bux, I have a feeling it will not crack anytime soon. Could be a usable alternative.


----------



## inferno

if doing lacquer you must make sure its japanese cashew lacquer otherwise the stones will crack from humiliation! trust me.

To be honest the easist way to seal a stone is to just spray it with any type of spray paint from a rattle can. I have Würth clear coat and it dries in 5 minutes  why make stuff more complicated then they need to be?


----------



## LucasFur

inferno said:


> I'm thinking the same! Or maybe there some known unknowns at work here? Maybe the stone dries more evenly or something if water can only evaporate from one single side?
> 
> Too bad about your 10k. Thats like 250 bux down the drain. I got my shappro 12k for about 85 €-bux, I have a feeling it will not crack anytime soon. Could be a usable alternative.




I'm thinking I'll nail polish 1/2 the stone and see what happens. 
All these guys buying Marine Epoxy ... my wife has enough nail polish for me to seal a few dozen stones.


----------



## inferno

I say use what you have! as long as it works.


----------



## kwk1

Well I did 3 coats.
Just a question for any of you that did this.
When drying the stone, are you still placing it on its side and covering with a damp cloth?
Thanks!


----------



## Grunt173

I am not convinced one way or the other that covering with a damp towel will work or not. It has been recommended in stone descriptions and care by JKI so that is what I do with stones that are prone to cracking if dried to fast and unevenly.With that said,since buying such a stone and a very lovely stone,the Synthetic Natural,it has developed such crack even with extreme care.So I guess there are no guarantees.I would still cover with a damp towel because it just makes good sense to me.


----------



## doudou

No worry man, the cracking wont affect the perfermance, however, from our experience, the cracking stones have better performance than those will not


----------



## Benuser

Haven't seen cracking with the new Naniwa Pro so far.


----------



## Nemo

kwk1 said:


> Well I did 3 coats.
> Just a question for any of you that did this.
> When drying the stone, are you still placing it on its side and covering with a damp cloth?
> Thanks!


Yes.... and no.

Stone goes on its side, no damp cloth,


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Anyone have information to the question on how to mount a stone? I would think a piece of wood rough sanded for glue, you should not soak it anyway. Mist bottle is fine while sharpening on a hard stone like the chosera. 

Do you need to prep the stone and what is a good water proof glue. Does epoxy stick to a stone?


----------



## Mjdavid

This looks like a design flaw based on the various cases I’ve seen. Also, did I understand correctly that Japanese market only sells Based Stones? Interesting


----------



## kwk1

Nemo said:


> Yes.... and no.
> 
> Stone goes on its side, no damp cloth,


I was wondering about it but you are in Aus which is very humid.
If you run A/C then it wouldn't matter.
Canada where I am is not that humid plus with furnace and A/C running most of the year, it's fairly dry in side.


----------



## Nemo

kwk1 said:


> I was wondering about it but you are in Aus which is very humid.
> If you run A/C then it wouldn't matter.
> Canada where I am is not that humid plus with furnace and A/C running most of the year, it's fairly dry in side.


Like Canada, Australia is a pretty big country. It's not so humid here 400 km from the coast and thousands of km from the tropics. The only aircon we have here is the humble swampy (evap cooler). It's pretty uncommon that it's too humid for it to do the trick up to about 40 degrees. I do wish it worked a bit better on 45 degree days though.


----------



## slickmamba

I have the chosera 800, 3k , and 10k with about 20-40 uses(10k the least, 800 the most) for each and haven't seen any cracks yet. I have the mounted japanese versions, only apply water on top, and dry them on their sides. 

That being said, seeing this does scare me, especially for 3k and 10k. How are you guys applying the lacquer/varnish? Should I attempt to remove the mount, lacquer/varnish, then remount?


----------



## kwk1

slickmamba said:


> I have the chosera 800, 3k , and 10k with about 20-40 uses(10k the least, 800 the most) for each and haven't seen any cracks yet. I have the mounted japanese versions, only apply water on top, and dry them on their sides.
> 
> That being said, seeing this does scare me, especially for 3k and 10k. How are you guys applying the lacquer/varnish? Should I attempt to remove the mount, lacquer/varnish, then remount?


I just taped the top of the stones and used a foam brush to coat the sides. I let them dry 24 hours and repeated for a total of 3 coats. I tried to get more on the bottom 2 sides where there is a gap. I have not used them yet!


----------



## slickmamba

maybe we can fill the gaps at the base with some silicone, or fill it with whatever we're using.


----------



## kwk1

slickmamba said:


> maybe we can fill the gaps at the base with some silicone, or fill it with whatever we're using.


I'm just going to place them on their side with the long side gap at the bottom.
They should air out okay.


----------



## inferno

And info on the new pros?? do these crack too? i have a feeling when naniwa released the almost identical pro versions they made them so they wouldn't crack. Thats at least what i would have done.


----------



## Benuser

The Naniwa Pros are thinner and unmounted, can dry more evenly and so they do.


----------



## railrus

Benuser said:


> Haven't seen cracking with the new Naniwa Pro so far.



me too. 3k namiwa pn: P3000-001K826 used over a year. fantastic stone


----------



## Grunt173

What do we mean by new Naniwa Pro ? Did they do something different to them since I bought mine a year ago? I have a 400,800 and 3000 that all have those spider web cracks.All used as spray and go and laid on their sides in a rack to dry. I'm here to tell ya,they crack.


----------



## kwk1

Grunt173 said:


> What do we mean by new Naniwa Pro ? Did they do something different to them since I bought mine a year ago? I have a 400,800 and 3000 that all have those spider web cracks.All used as spray and go and laid on their sides in a rack to dry. I'm here to tell ya,they crack.


I'm guessing Chosera mounted on a base are the old ones and non-mounted with a plastic case to use as a base are the new ones.


----------



## Grunt173

kwk1 said:


> I'm guessing Chosera mounted on a base are the old ones and non-mounted with a plastic case to use as a base are the new ones.


I have the non mounted ones.I keep reading that the new ones do not crack and since I have the unmounted Naniwa Pros that are cracked,I just wanted to throw that out there in case some believe what they read.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Bought a couple 10,000 grits a used Chosera that had a chip on it got it cheap. While I had it developed spiderweb cracks eventually over the entire surface. Didn't effect the sharpening though. Other was the Naniwa Super If you want a high polish was good for that. I sold both of these stones because liked the Kitayama for my single bevels & at the time preferred stones on wooden bases. Both 10,000 had no base. 

Still have a Chosera 400 one of the better coarse stones I have used. Very dish resistant for such a coarse stone.

These days use gesshin soakers. Like that you can get xtra large in the 400 & IK suits my needs perfectly. Like my old big Kings. I have numerous medium stones, the King Hyper is a good one.


----------



## kwk1

Grunt173 said:


> I have the non mounted ones.I keep reading that the new ones do not crack and since I have the unmounted Naniwa Pros that are cracked,I just wanted to throw that out there in case some believe what they read.


I'm sure I read too that the new ones without base crack.
If they didn't, I would have got them instead of the Chosera with base.
I figured if either are susceptible to cracking, I might as well get the ones with bases and cleaning stones.


----------



## Grunt173

kwk1 said:


> I'm sure I read too that the new ones without base crack.
> If they didn't, I would have got them instead of the Chosera with base.
> I figured if either are susceptible to cracking, I might as well get the ones with bases and cleaning stones.


I like the Chosera stones for their feel and effectiveness so when a deal came along for a Choe with bases in the 400,800 and 3000,I purchased them so they are still unused and in their original boxes and never taken out of the boxes actually.They are out of harms way on my top shelf.They are there to MAYBE be used at a later date or sold,one or the other.


----------



## kwk1

Grunt173 said:


> I like the Chosera stones for their feel and effectiveness so when a deal came along for a Choe with bases in the 400,800 and 3000,I purchased them so they are still unused and in their original boxes and never taken out of the boxes actually.They are out of harms way on my top shelf.They are there to MAYBE be used at a later date or sold,one or the other.


So you have a cracked set of Pros, and a new set of Choseras. Been so many posts here, are your Pros cracked but still usable? I specifically got the choseras from reports that they have good feedback. I was almost set on Shapton Glass then I heard they have poor feedback. Being new to sharpening I didn't think the SG would have been the best choice for me. If mine fair well I'll pick up a 400 later on as well.


----------



## Grunt173

kwk1 said:


> So you have a cracked set of Pros, and a new set of Choseras. Been so many posts here, are your Pros cracked but still usable? I specifically got the choseras from reports that they have good feedback. I was almost set on Shapton Glass then I heard they have poor feedback. Being new to sharpening I didn't think the SG would have been the best choice for me. If mine fair well I'll pick up a 400 later on as well.


Oh yes,even though my 400,800 and 3k choes have spider webbing cracks,they in no way affect the feel or sharpening.You can't even feel them.I just know they are there throughout the stone as they appear when you wet the stone.


----------



## kwk1

Grunt173 said:


> Oh yes,even though my 400,800 and 3k choes have spider webbing cracks,they in no way affect the feel or sharpening.You can't even feel them.I just know they are there throughout the stone as they appear when you wet the stone.


Perfect!


----------



## MashMaster

Anybody heard about a Zwilling Kramer Glass Stones cracking. I am thinking they might be a good option, although the recipe his according to some slightly different 5K better harder more abrasive less polishing, 3K softer not as good. I wonder if you adhered a series of professional stones to glass plates if that would help. Strength so less flex both in pressure on the holder but also expansion and contraction when wet / dry cycle.


----------



## kayman67

They do exhibit some edge cracking or spider webbing, just not as obvious as Chosera. Makes no difference while using, can't feel a thing with razors.


----------



## MashMaster

Magnesium oxychloride (MOC) stones, it is not the fact they are water soluble, although I had read that a number of places. It is the hydration of free MgO causes an increase in its volume, thereby leading to the generation of cracks

Some reading for those who care, anybody that has more than high school chemistry will get more out of it than me.
https://www.jocpr.com/articles/the-application-review-of-magnesium-oxychloride-cement.pdf
Using the Egyptian magnesite for preparation of some types of grinding stones
A nice review of https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acs.chemrev.5b00463
Checkout section 5.2 Chlorocarbonate: Relation to Strength and Durability 

Do if you have low humidity and use the stones dry they should never crack, back in the real world this splash and go should be called a mist and go and like your powder should be kept dry. 

knivesandtools have the most pragmatic advice. ...
For that reason we strongly advise against exposing magnesium bound sharpening stones to (a lot of) water. If you do decide to sharpen using water it is important to properly let the stone dry after use. First you need to rinse off the remaining slurry. Please note: rinse it off with a little bit of water, do not submerge the stone. Afterwards dry the stone with a microfiber cloth. This material is great because it easily absorbs water.
slowly let it dry
Now it is key to let the sharpening stone dry gradually. In this case there is no sense in rushing things. Put the stone on its side to make sure any remaining water can drip off. Make sure the stone won’t dry in the sun or on the heater. After all, the heat of the sun or heater will cause the surface to dry faster than the core of the stone. The tension that is created could cause small cracks in the sharpening layer. We call these cracks hairline cracks. You can reduce the chance of these cracks by wrapping the stone in the microfiber cloth you also used to dry off the stone. As a result the surface and the rest of the stone dry at approximately the same speed.
Is it a bad thing if you do happen do come across hairline cracks? No, it isn’t. A smooth sharpening stone will, of course, look better and water could seep in the cracks which means that it could take a little longer for the stone to dry. But considering the fact that you already need to be patient when it comes to drying the stone, this shouldn’t be an issue. The hairline cracks will – as mentioned before – not affect the sharpening results, which is also something Naniwa confirmed. However, if these cracks do affect your sharpening process you could, of course, always appeal to the guarantee Naniwa hands out with their stones.

I felt cracks not spider cracking and only with edge leading strokes.


----------



## Bear

I went through 3 3000 grit base mounted Chosera's before I gave up on them and went with SG, the first cracked in half and the other two just spider cracked, I did not keep them long enough to break. I've had my 800 for a few years now with no problems but I really miss that 3000 it's a great stone, I've been thinking of trying another one.


----------



## MashMaster

Bear said:


> I went through 3 3000 grit base mounted Chosera's before I gave up on them and went with SG, the first cracked in half and the other two just spider cracked, I did not keep them long enough to break. I've had my 800 for a few years now with no problems but I really miss that 3000 it's a great stone, I've been thinking of trying another one.


How do you find the SG stones. I have never used them. I know different grits some will be better than others. Just general feedback


----------



## inferno

i have the 800 and 2k NP. the 2k has no cracks but the 800 is starting to show a few. the stone has never been soaked, only used as a splash and go.
if the kramers are similar to these then they will also crack sooner or later. its just how these types of stones work.

stones that dont crack easily. shapton pro and glass. besters/imanishis dont seem to crack easily either.
ceraxes/traditionals dont crack afaik. but these are of course soakers. 

of all the stones i've tried i like the the shaptons the best. they are the most all round, splash and go, slow wear. it just works. and they are relatively inexpensive too. my favorites are the 220 pro/glass, 500 double thick glass, 1k pro, 2k pro, 2k glass, 3k glass, 4k glass, 6k gray glass, 8k pro, 12k pro. have not tried the 10k glass but i guess its good too.


----------



## Bear

MashMaster said:


> How do you find the SG stones. I have never used them. I know different grits some will be better than others. Just general feedback


I like them allot but they have a different feel to them, they are fast but they don’t last as long as the Choseras. The Choseras I have tried (800, 3000) feel very smooth to me and have great feedback but I really don't have anything other than the SG to compare them to.


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

My 3k Chosera is riddled with white lines where the cracks used to be. The previous cracks seemed to fill in with dissolved binder and the cracks healed them selves. I was hoping that my 5k Chosera would do the same thing, but it wasn't changing. I started using my well water which is saturated with soluble minerals on my 5k to see if that would fill in the cracks. It's a slow enough process that it's hard to tell whether it's working, but it seems to be.

I have zero cracking on my 1k Chosera and 600 Pro.


----------



## dafox

Still a mystery to me why some have problems with this and others dont. I have Choseras 400, 800, and 3000 base mounted, use them a fair bit, I even use the 3000 under other thinner stones and have never had any problems. Hmmm...


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

dafox said:


> Still a mystery to me why some have problems with this and others dont. I have Choseras 400, 800, and 3000 base mounted, use them a fair bit, I even use the 3000 under other thinner stones and have never had any problems. Hmmm...


Well, my 3k arrived used with cracks and healed itself. My 600 and 1k never had problems.

So you're going to have to buy a 5k 'For science' as we live in the same climate.


----------



## Benuser

Not sure whether one misses so much when skipping the 5k. I've found the Chosera soft, and lacking in tactile response. Had to guess whether a burr was gone. Very different in that regard than the other ones.
If you aren't afraid of a spider web, better consider the Naniwa Junpaku 8k 'snow-white'. Lot of feedback, offering a remarkable refined kind of bite. I use it with carbons after the NP3k. No real need, just fun. And for maintenance.


----------



## ModRQC

I used to soak NP400 about 5 minutes before using it, every time after couple initial tests. Always abundantly rinsed or briefly soaked NP800 before using it. NP3K rinsed enough. Always rinsed them clean after use, too, or briefly soaked again. Used hot water more than once in doing so. Always proceeded with a 10 minutes soak first time use OOTB. You could catch me flattening any of them immersed in water completely. Sharpen with them laying on a wet cloth. NP800 has been with me for close to a year now, and used more than any other stone. 

One thing is that they are always uniformly exposed to water when I use them. Another thing is that they are never in a place that doesn't get at least basic air circulation. These stones still feel cooler than they should after 12-24 hours of drying open air depending on how fine they are and relative climate. You can feel it. I wouldn't put any of them to be dry within 48 hours after use, wouldn't be surprised to learn it's even longer, wouldn't change a thing to my system would I learn they all get fully dry within 24 no matter the climate. 

They are dense stones, but not almost water repellent like Shapton Pro. They take some of any amount of water in, and don't readily let it out. Makes them tremendously nice feeling S&Gs. Might make them very vulnerable to enclosed spaces, unthorough cleaning (some layer of mud still clinging on the sides or worse surface will prevent normal drying to some extent I guess) and more arid climates possibly. Avoiding any longer soak than 5 minutes in normal use is probably warranted with magnesia bound stones like these - but I would be inclined to say, water in copious amounts or relatively short lived submersion is not a problem of itself. Believing they are dry because they look or even feel so I would say is much more dangerous. My experience being far from an arid climate, in this case I would be very very tempted to have them dry within a damp cloth.

I'm not all convinced by the advice I often read of using minimal water, only on the sharpening surface side if possible. Rather, I would always have them have water uniformly from all sides. Even where the center will take longer to dry, having the outer layer damp all around will help with regularizing the relative humidity all through the stone as it dries from outside to inside, a bit like wrapping in a damp cloth in arid climates...


----------



## Kawa

Have a chosera 600 and professional 400. So not the higher gritt, which seem to crack more often.

I've been using both stones for over 3 years now, they have both seen about 100 knives so far.
I soak them both for about 10 minutes, completely under water. Sometimes I even forget about them and the soaking might be closer to 30 minutes.
Which means they saw about 100 times soaking/drying cycles.

Neither one of them has cracked so far, not even hairline cracks. Rational enough to admit this might be pure luck.

What I do however, is dry them very carefully.
I have a huge history in the bowlingsport and I've learned (the hard way) that hard, purous materials never like tension differences in a short timespan (meaning, hot to cold of visa versa in a short time). I've also learned you need to dry those things slowly and evenly.

I dry my stones by putting them diagonally against the wall, in about 45 degrees angle. Therefor I have the least amount of contact with stuff, so air can reach the biggest surface.
More importanly, I turn my stones very often. When I put a wet stone against the wall, you can see that in 5 minutes the water has gone to the lowest point, meaning the concact point at the table (not the wall), and the bottomside of the stone is wet while the topside already starts to dry. So I turn my stone that way, that the wettest point becomes the highest point (contact with the wall).
My theorie is the remaining water can flow through the stone this way more evenly, instead of having a low point where all the water assembles/ runs towards.
Think about it, no matter how you put your stone (on the side or flat), if you dont turn your stone you will always have that lowest point which has the most water for the longest time.

I keep flipping them for quite some time, first time after 5 minutes, then after 10, then after 20 etc. Untill they are dry.

If it doesnt help, it doesnt harm you either i guess.


----------

