# Honyaki? I don't get it ...



## naifu

I am fairly new to JKKs so please forgive my ignorance. My question is, why are honyaki knives popular, and why would one pay $800-$1500 for a honyaki knife over say a $300-$400 knife? I get that honyaki is a more expensive process and they look nice, but is there any real value or advantage of a honyaki over some other type of steel combination/process?

The analogy that comes to my mind is someone who purchases an expensive Swiss made watch over a cheap digital watch. That is, some people like to spend the money on fancy things, crafted in a traditional manner, even if there is no practical reason to do so. Is this why people want honyaki knives?


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## dwalker

Yes


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## Mucho Bocho

No


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## TheCaptain

Maybe.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

No honyaki owner, but they strike me more as people that get a HP 5071A in addition to their digital watch


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## Wdestate

yes to all,generally because they are more difficult to forge then some, its a good craftsman makinga high quality blade and from my experience they generally keep it going and have skilled craftsman work on the grinding/polishing/sharpening, some people like the feel of monosteel blades, some like the aesthetics of the hamon and the idea of traditional arts being continued in a kitchen knife. for me personally its a combination of everything, i have a lot of honyaki knives, also if you are a good shopper you can find honyaki blades made by incredible makers for less than 800, i promise you that


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## F-Flash

Is there any of those in stock somewhere? For less than 800


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## Matus

F-Flash said:


> Is there any of those in stock somewhere? For less than 800



You can get to around 800 with direct orders I think - I have not seen a honyaki gyuto for that price in a shop - maybe some special discounts or such. 

I keep banging my head against the wall for not getting on of the Maxims Singatirin honyaki knives when he carried them. I think the sale price at the end was around 350. Oh well.


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## khashy

It's one of those things that I find hard to explain. As a knife geek, you will only realise why you 'need' a honyaki knife when you actually physically handle one.


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## Barmoley

Honyaki seems to be the pinnacle of blacksmith's forging skill. The ultimate control over the simple, carbon steel they work with. With that you also end up with the blade that has the hardest and longest lasting cutting edge the simple carbon steel can get. Because of this it also takes a skilled user to get the most out of such blade. People enjoy this, it makes them think that they own the best that the given smith can produce and that they themselves belong to a very special and unique group of people that can appreciate such tool and give it the care and use it requires. In that regard, it is somewhat similar to owning fine watches or high performance, purpose built cars.

Plus Honyakis just look bad-ass :rofl2:


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## khashy

I agree that it is a lot to do with knowing that the knife is as good as it can get for that particular smith.

However there is definitely an element of performance to it too. The Sakai honyakis that I have handled have been amongst the absolute best cutters.

The Shiraki White2 for example is unbelievably thin and yet beautifully stiff and it ghosts through everything, I mean everything.

So it's not like these knives are just to be looked at, they are fantastic performers.


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## parbaked

Matus said:


> You can get to around 800 with direct orders I think - I have not seen a honyaki gyuto for that price in a shop - maybe some special discounts or such.



Ikeda Yoshikazu honyaki gyuto can be found for under $800 at Epicurean.
http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=96590
The shop in SF has one on sale for under $700...


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## Wdestate

F-Flash said:


> Is there any of those in stock somewhere? For less than 800



you will have to wait a period while they make it generally takes 3-4 months for most my orders, but pm me if you would like to know where i get some of mine.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Isn't a honyaki gyuto or santoku - anything not a true to form wa bocho - kind of hipsterish in a way?


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## bryan03

> Honyaki seems to be the pinnacle of blacksmith's forging skill



well...not realy....

it's hard to make a nice and well placed hamon, but It is definitely no more complicated to forge a honyaki than a sanmai or complex damascus or mosaic.


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## panda

most people get honyaki cause it looks cool
for me it's about getting that extra hardness in the steel and the unique 'feel' that density in use gives you.


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## bryan03

yes it look's cool and sexy.

you can have same hardness with damascus cladding or sanmai , you just have to choose the good clad steel.


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## icanhaschzbrgr

F-Flash said:


> Is there any of those in stock somewhere? For less than 800


Robin Dalman offers short honyaki gyuto for less than 800. And Mario Ingoglia has a very nice 240 gyuto for way less than 800$.


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## daddy yo yo

F-Flash said:


> Is there any of those in stock somewhere? For less than 800



Hiromoto Western Honyaki 240mm at JCK for 500 $ + 7 $ shipping, white #2, handle made of pakkawood (240 and 270mm) or linen micarta (240mm).


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## akafat

No, because honyaki with a single piece of steel is more resistant to sideway-bending comparing to sanmai which is a combination of soft iron and steel.

But also yes, because I don't think we can use the knife as many times as professional Japanese chef. I only take my knife out and watch it for a while, then put it back. It makes me happy in a way I don't understand why.


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## malexthekid

akafat said:


> No, because honyaki with a single piece of steel is more resistant to sideway-bending comparing to sanmai which is a combination of soft iron and steel.



Sorry but can I say what you are describing is way to complex to simplify as you have described. And massively depends on type of metals involved and their similarities...

Also the risk with san mai is differential strain due to thermal expansion/contraction. Which can also occur in honyaki as you are insulating part of the blade.


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## labor of love

Mucho Bocho said:


> No



+1
I have a honyaki on order from a custom maker for a reasonable price. Otherwise, it takes a seriously high level of steel snobbery to want to pay the prices these things go for. Law of diminishing returns.


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## panda

i plead guilty to the charge of steel snobbery.


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## Marcelo Amaral

panda said:


> i plead guilty to the charge of steel snobbery.



Same here, but the fact that it is a honyaki doesn't guarantee it will perform better than a san mai(in terms of flying through food with less resistance). My hiromoto honyaki is great at meats and softer stuff, but can't touch a Watanabe pro san mai or a Yoshikane SKD when going through harder produce. One thing i found true so far for honyakis is that, in general, they can take a very polished edge and hold it (it doesn't mean a harder core san mai can't, of course).


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## Customfan

as long as were being honest... :angel2:

Wether its performance, looks or history..... if it makes you happy....

Does it really matter? :thumbsup:


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## Marcelo Amaral

Customfan said:


> as long as were being honest... :angel2:
> 
> Wether its performance, looks or history..... if it makes you happy....
> 
> Does it really matter? :thumbsup:



lus1:


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## Barmoley

Now we are talking. This I can agree with.


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## tsuriru

akafat said:


> No, because honyaki with a single piece of steel is more resistant to sideway-bending comparing to sanmai which is a combination of soft iron and steel.



It sounds so authoritative - almost like you have extensive experience in making both. Is that true?


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## dwalker

akafat said:


> No, because honyaki with a single piece of steel is more resistant to sideway-bending comparing to sanmai which is a combination of soft iron and steel.
> 
> But also yes, because I don't think we can use the knife as many times as professional Japanese chef. I only take my knife out and watch it for a while, then put it back. It makes me happy in a way I don't understand why.



Well, I'm the guy that has recieved more than one san mai knife with bends and twists that i easily remedied. I also have a honyaki from a very prominent maker that is warped and I can not straighten out myself. The knife is brand new and unusable. San mai knives are easy to straighten, honyaki not so much. So this resistance to bending aspect of a honyaki is not always a good thing.


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## Triggaaar

Customfan said:


> as long as were being honest... :angel2:
> 
> Wether its performance, looks or history..... if it makes you happy....
> 
> Does it really matter? :thumbsup:


No. But it's useful for those that are considering one to know what they're buying. Are they just getting loos and history, but with performance comparable to more affordable knives, or are they getting better performance too?


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## TheCaptain

dwalker said:


> Well, I'm the guy that has recieved more than one san mai knife with bends and twists that i easily remedied. I also have a honyaki from a very prominent maker that is warped and I can not straighten out myself. The knife is brand new and unusable. San mai knives are easy to straighten, honyaki not so much. So this resistance to bending aspect of a honyaki is not always a good thing.



That explanation is spot on! Now I get it.

The maker/seller isn't offering to replace the knife?


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## RDalman

I think construction doesn't necessarily make this or that. It's possible to make knives of better or lesser quality in both constructions, but yes a soft clad san mai is usually straightenable, some more than others, some may move around a little over time. Good advice could be get from trusted/well reputed sources with good customer service?


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## Matus

Two properties are being confused here. One is with how much force the blade would flex up to certain degree and the other - whether after the force was removed the blade returns to its original shape. In my experience monosteel blades (that is what a honyaki is after all) flex with less force, but do not deform, so they are next to impossible to straighten. On the other hands sanmai blades are often stiffer - this is because the cladding creates surface tension (like certain types of bridges). At the same time since most of the blade is not hardened, the blade is easier to bend permanently. I am not saying that this is a universal truth, just my impression and my attempt to understand/explain it.


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## dwalker

TheCaptain said:


> That explanation is spot on! Now I get it.
> 
> The maker/seller isn't offering to replace the knife?



I purchased it second hand, but am attempting to make arrangements to get it back to the smith. This is a VERY thin blade. Forcing it to bend is no problem but it immediately returns. It's killing me, i want to use it so much as the performance should be remarkable.


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## supersayan3

In terms of practicality, with let's say a Masahiro virgin carbon and a Ryusen Blazen, 
You are more than covered. 
I also, agree completely with everything those who support Honyakis have stated


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## Anton

panda said:


> most people get honyaki cause it looks cool
> for me it's about getting that extra hardness in the steel and the unique 'feel' that density in use gives you.



This 
Definetly a feel and density thing. But I have found that within the same maker, their honyaki always has a better if not more refined grind or ability to slide through food easier.


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## Drosophil

Anton said:


> This
> Definetly a feel and density thing. But I have found that within the same maker, their honyaki always has a better if not more refined grind or ability to slide through food easier.



I might be completely rambling here, but could it be that honyakis have a better grind because in awase knives you have to "work around" the cladding? Or do makers just invest more time in honyakis?

And another question: how much truth is there when people say that honyaki blades have better edge retention? Given the same steel and the same heat treatment from the same maker, shouldn't edges be pretty much the same? Or, to put it differently: how much difference is there between the hagane in a clad knife and the hard part of a honyaki?


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## malexthekid

The key there is that honyaki is a different HT... that is how you make it a honyaki as opposed to that monosteel.. and the Honyaki HT process gives a higher hrc at the edge and hence better edge retention


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## bryan03

:surrendar:


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## malexthekid

I also don't think san mai is any different to grind (pre HT) than honyaki and think grinds can be identical..


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## malexthekid

bryan03 said:


> :surrendar:



Did I say something wrong?


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## Obsidiank

I'm going to go super.meta and say that knife geeks all secretly imagine what it'd be like to be a samurai and the mythical blade that can cut through anything is akin to a super power. So yes, we all want super powers in the kitchen so a honyaki gets you there 1/1000th of the way.


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## bryan03

> the Honyaki HT process gives a higher hrc at the edge and hence better edge retention



with same steel, if the "honyaki" is harder , and have a better edge rétention than the "monosteel". its because the HT in the "monosteel" is wrong. 
same steel,same Ht : same **** ...

Whatever name you give it, if it's the same steel , nothing change. 
In the metallurgy nothing is magic.


Edit , sorry my english is not good at all.... i don't want to seem "rude". sorry if it's looks like.


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## Anton

malexthekid said:


> I also don't think san mai is any different to grind (pre HT) than honyaki and think grinds can be identical..



Agreed 

Predisposition?


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## fatboylim

I have always thought of honyaki and san mai in two completely different levels of maturity in the USER. 

Honyaki needs the expertise of a seasoned sharpener aware of the difficulty in thinning such hard steel yet maintaining the intended grind. Also a strong cutting technique to avoid torque in food to avoid risk of cracking the blade. And finally the awareness/experience of the feedback on the boards. 

San mai and monosteel are much easier to maintain, allow for lower/lazy levels of cutting technique and in some cases have similar board feedback (e.g. Kato and Masamoto KS). 

For the seasoned experts, honyaki is a natural progression and challenge that rewards their heightened skills. 

I'm squarely in the san mai monosteel camp as I'm too relaxed about my cutting technique and my sharpening is intermediate compared to the many experts on this forum. 

Cheers to those who can tame the honyaki, I learn from you with great interest; and from a far.


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## panda

You don't have to be a highly.skilled user to appreciate honyaki, nor do you need to be an expert sharpener. Just comes down to what you are looking for in a knife. I just don't think the advantages honyaki brings aligns with the interest of most users.


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## milkbaby

bryan03 said:


> :surrendar:



:lol2:


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## milkbaby

panda said:


> You don't have to be a highly.skilled user to appreciate honyaki, nor do you need to be an expert sharpener. Just comes down to what you are looking for in a knife. I just don't think the advantages honyaki brings aligns with the interest of most users.



I agree with panda... 

The difference in grinds that possibly exist are most likely due to the fact they put more care into crafting a US$1000+ knife than for a $100-$400 knife. Also, I bet only the best sharpener or the bladesmith himself grinds the honyaki versus say an apprentice who is allowed to grind the cheaper stuff.

I myself do not feel the difference between san mai, monosteel, or honyaki (or differentially hardened monosteel) when cutting on the board. This is not to say others don't, just myself. For me the benefit of honyaki is appreciation of the traditional, the looks, and the effort put into its making.


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## tsuriru

milkbaby said:


> monosteel, or honyaki (or differentially hardened monosteel)



What is the difference between monosteel, honyaki, and differentially hardened monosteel?


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## malexthekid

bryan03 said:


> with same steel, if the "honyaki" is harder , and have a better edge rétention than the "monosteel". its because the HT in the "monosteel" is wrong.
> same steel,same Ht : same **** ...
> 
> Whatever name you give it, if it's the same steel , nothing change.
> In the metallurgy nothing is magic.
> 
> 
> Edit , sorry my english is not good at all.... i don't want to seem "rude". sorry if it's looks like.



My understanding is that honyaki lets you push the hrc further whereas if you were taking normal monosteel to that hrc it is impractical due to an even high failure rate...

If I am wrong happy to be corrected. And you haven't offended me or anything, would just rather be corrected if I am spreading misinformation.


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## RDalman

malexthekid said:


> My understanding is that honyaki lets you push the hrc further whereas if you were taking normal monosteel to that hrc it is impractical due to an even high failure rate...
> 
> If I am wrong happy to be corrected. And you haven't offended me or anything, would just rather be corrected if I am spreading misinformation.



Yea generally that's not true. Though a differential hardening gives added straightenability, and the cosmetical hardening line, so it can be a benefitial process for some steels. However if I miss the hamon with a waterquench and make a full hardened blade that didn't bend or warp, I'm very ok with that.


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## malexthekid

RDalman said:


> Yea generally that's not true. Though a differential hardening gives added straightenability, and the cosmetical hardening line, so it can be a benefitial process for some steels. However if I miss the hamon with a waterquench and make a full hardened blade that didn't bend or warp, I'm very ok with that.



My impression was if you were going for a fully hardened bladed you would have an increase in the failure from what honyaki already is... hence the point of honyaki was to provide a "practical method" for creating high hardness blades.

And by practical I also include the fact you can straighten it.

Otherwise is the point of honyaki purely aesthetics? Why do makers then create differentially hardened bladed that don't have a visible hamon?


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## RDalman

Yes it is a practical method (still fiddly compared to how well san mai blades handle a aggressive quench) but the degree of practical I don't know. Diffhardened without hamon? I suppose a surface hardening then? Yes that one provides the straightening benefits, so I guess that would be it. 
I think the processes and reasons will vary alot maker to maker. For me, I want full through hardening lower section and minimal bend in quench, for a bunch of reasons, some for me and my process, some for my own set quality measures.


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## bennyprofane

The Xerxes Primus is a real honyaki, differentially hardened in a clay coat and it's only 420. Imho, Xerxes is one of the top blade smiths around at the moment.

http://messerkontor.de/produkt/xerxes-primus-gyuto-23cm/

Google translated description:



> The steel is the new special alloy sc125 from Achim Wirtz, an ultra-pure carbon steel based on Armco 4 Reineisen. It has a carbon content of 1.25% and a manganese content of 0.6% for better through-hardenability. The cutting hardness is approx. 63 HRC.
> The blade is differentially hardened in the clay mantle (as with Japanese swords) and soldered into the handle termination plate. She is pre-patinated.


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## panda

the primus looks great and i still want to try it. his other stuff looks like a gimmick to me, like the machined 'concave' in the middle of one side of the blade. but hey people are buying it and he's providing a niche.


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## labor of love

So if a San mai gyuto and honyaki gyuto were both higher hardness like 63-65 with the same steel, would there be any difference in how they sharpen, edge taking or retention?


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## Matus

labor of love said:


> So if a San mai gyuto and honyaki gyuto were both higher hardness like 63-65 with the same steel, would there be any difference in how they sharpen, edge taking or retention?



If the steal is the same and the HT is the same, than with the same edge geometry and sharpening the two will have the same edge retention.


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## RDalman

labor of love said:


> So if a San mai gyuto and honyaki gyuto were both higher hardness like 63-65 with the same steel, would there be any difference in how they sharpen, edge taking or retention?



With identical composition and HT no (there's more than the hardness, ie grain).


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## bennyprofane

labor of love said:


> So if a San mai gyuto and honyaki gyuto were both higher hardness like 63-65 with the same steel, would there be any difference in how they sharpen, edge taking or retention?



I read that the iron cladding absorbs some of the carbon of the core steel which reduces the edge retention a bit. But I don't know if this is true or actually measurable.


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## bennyprofane

panda said:


> the primus looks great and i still want to try it. his other stuff looks like a gimmick to me, like the machined 'concave' in the middle of one side of the blade. but hey people are buying it and he's providing a niche.



The 'concave' is a hollow grind which gives better food release. It's been tested throughly in a PA and it actually works. But you can get all of his knives without the hollow grind, there are quite a few users which don't like the looks at all. I don't mind and like the feature.


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## RDalman

bennyprofane said:


> I read that the iron cladding absorbs some of the carbon of the core steel and which reduces the edge retention a bit. But I don't know if this is true or actually measurable.



It's true, depending on core thickness and HT it can matter or not


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## RDalman

bennyprofane said:


> The 'concave' is a hollow grind which gives better food release. It's been tested throughly in a PA and it actually works. But you can get all of his knives without the hollow grind, there are quite a few users which don't like the looks at all. I don't mind and like the feature.



It (the concave on his knives) does look machined and not ground on most I've seen. Not that it matters for any practical reasons.


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## Matus

Yes, cladding does absorb some of the Carbon from hagane unless one uses another metal between the hagane and jigane (Will Catchside uses that technieque). The main reason is very high mobility of Carbon atoms in iron at forging / HT temerature.


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## sharptools

http://hides-export.blogspot.com/2011/06/q-with-iizuka-san.html?m=1

From an old interview with Iizuka-san from Shigefusa. Seems like one of the main reasons for honyaki is for anti-warping over a long period of time. The price accounts for the failure rate and what you pay for this particular solution to the problem. 

Also, the hamon just looks cool.


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## scott.livesey

this may be sacrilege, but what is the difference between honyaki and well done stock removal? I know the Rimbyo honyaki deba is forged one hammer stroke at a time, heated in pine charcoal harvested from the north side of Mt. Fuji, of steel made from ore harvested from the sea by magnet. so why is that a better blade than one of O1 or 1.2519, shaped from steel made by a ISO9000 compliant manufacturer, heated in a lab grade furnace, quenched in proper quench oil, and tempered. at this point, both blades will be finished with a belt and disc sander then hand sharpened. to repeat the thread title, "Honyaki, I don't get it"


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## Matus

Scott, how dare you


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## malexthekid

RDalman said:


> Yes it is a practical method (still fiddly compared to how well san mai blades handle a aggressive quench) but the degree of practical I don't know. Diffhardened without hamon? I suppose a surface hardening then? Yes that one provides the straightening benefits, so I guess that would be it.
> I think the processes and reasons will vary alot maker to maker. For me, I want full through hardening lower section and minimal bend in quench, for a bunch of reasons, some for me and my process, some for my own set quality measures.



Sorry by differential hardened I mean honyaki just on steels that don't readily display a hamon...

Again i could be butcher the term but in the truest sense I thought a hamon had to be present to be considered a honyaki blade.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@scott.livesey who is to say the two processes you describe will not each yield a great knife? However, your "modern" process doesn't say anything about how the shaping is taking place, and about presence of differential temper/hardening - one of the points of honyaki seems to be that you can, like in an awase knife, have the edge at a temper that would give you too frangible a blade if it was uniform.


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## scott.livesey

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @scott.livesey who is to say the two processes you describe will not each yield a great knife?both processes can yield a good knife  However, your "modern" process doesn't say anything about how the shaping is taking place[cutting, grinding, and or filing], and about presence of differential temper/hardening - one of the points of honyaki seems to be that you can, like in an awase knife, have the edge at a temper that would give you too frangible a blade if it was uniform[This makes no sense as I have several knives of 1.2519 where the entire blade from edge to spine(1/16" or 1.5mm at thickest) tested at Rc64-65. the knives have been in use for over two years and both are daily users. as with any knife with a very thin, very hard blade, they are only used to slice boneless proteins and soft veg.


1.2519 is a European tool steel in the O7 family. the composition is similar to Hitachi Blue #2 
I have also tested several blades made from 1/32"(0.75mm) O1 that tested Rc64-65. Again, they work well slicing boneless proteins and soft veg. 
I see nothing wrong with Honyaki blades, just that there are folks in USA and Germany making comparable knives that are hardly ever discussed.


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## milkbaby

tsuriru said:


> milkbaby said:
> 
> 
> 
> monosteel, or honyaki (or differentially hardened monosteel)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the difference between monosteel, honyaki, and differentially hardened monosteel?
Click to expand...


I wrote those three terms due to a discussion on another forum where a member felt that honyaki should be reserved as a term similar to designated geographical origin protected terms in EU like champagne which is only used for champagne made in the Champagne area of France by the traditional method; whereas say in USA, champagne could be any sparkling wine that tastes similar. Meaning, he felt unless differentially hardened by quenching a clay coated blade made by a Japanese bladesmith using traditional techniques, he didn't consider it honyaki. I don't agree, though if there was a strong movement by Japanese bladesmiths to claim the term for this, I would accept it. 

As you know, though for the edification of the others here that may not, quenching a clay coated blade is not the only way to achieve a differentially hardened blade nor to get some hamon-like activity. Most people wouldn't call a quench line a hamon, though they can be beautiful like the "rainbow" ones Don Carlos Andrade does. If thick enough towards the spine, there is also the possibility of "auto-hamon".

So I was just making a distinction between honyaki being monosteel differentially hardened by quenching a clay coated blade. So actually it would still be monosteel, but I'm guessing in the kitchen knife world, monosteel usually used to describe single steel knives not made as honyaki, i.e. then the vast majority of kitchen knives in the world are monosteel.

Apologies for the digression! :O


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## milkbaby

scott.livesey said:


> this may be sacrilege, but what is the difference between honyaki and well done stock removal? I know the Rimbyo honyaki deba is forged one hammer stroke at a time, heated in pine charcoal harvested from the north side of Mt. Fuji, of steel made from ore harvested from the sea by magnet. so why is that a better blade than one of O1 or 1.2519, shaped from steel made by a ISO9000 compliant manufacturer, heated in a lab grade furnace, quenched in proper quench oil, and tempered. at this point, both blades will be finished with a belt and disc sander then hand sharpened. to repeat the thread title, "Honyaki, I don't get it"



I think your question is begging the point, i.e. you already said they are different in your descriptions. Although that doesn't say anything as to quality of these knives at all. 

I have to admit that in my purchases of Japanese kitchen knives, I preferred to only buy forged blades. In reality as you noted, the quality and dimensions of steel available from factories now is such high quality forging is not necessary with the exception of wanting to do pattern welded steel. Although technically if you do that using only a hydraulic press and not a hammer, does it still count as forged? :groucho:


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## malexthekid

I think you have to realise that modern forging is typically taking bar stock from the steel manufacturer and forging that into shape. The other process is taking sheet steel cut to size and grinding it to shape.

I would suggest very few are using the forging process to refine the steel as traditionally was done.

And also... in what I consider honyaki you could still make a stock removal honyaki as it is more about HT than the shaping process.

And finally if you are going to that point of "why honyaki" then I ask why are you on this forum because a $30 victorinox is going to cut that onion for you.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

So is there any reason to assume that forging, even from bar stock, is not significantly improving conventional/carbon steels (there have been good reasons given why some highly engineered steels, PM and such, will rather degrade, not talking about them)?


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## scott.livesey

malexthekid said:


> I think you have to realise that modern forging is typically taking bar stock from the steel manufacturer and forging that into shape. The other process is taking sheet steel cut to size and grinding it to shape.
> I would suggest very few are using the forging process to refine the steel as traditionally was done.
> And also... in what I consider honyaki you could still make a stock removal honyaki as it is more about HT than the shaping process.
> And finally if you are going to that point of "why honyaki" then I ask why are you on this forum because a $30 victorinox is going to cut that onion for you.



to dig deeper, both bar stock and flat stock are forged from massive ingots of steel made by primary manufacturere. forging does not refine steel, it shapes it. forging is done because it is the most economical way to make large quantities of identical precision parts. at the office, we forge enough parts to make FWD drive axle assemblies for 250,000 vehicles a month. differential HT, where spine is softer than the edge, vs. thru HT, where the entire blade is the same hardness, can be debated forever with no clear winners. I enjoy a good kitchen knife. If all I wanted to do was cut onions, a $1 knife and $1 oilstone will work just fine, buy a new knife once a year. my questions are more "Why not an ajikiri instead of a "standard" paring knife?


----------



## malexthekid

You are paying for the skill and difficulty.

Same as why you pay more for difficult timbers in furniture making (thinking detailed carving).

Performance advantages will be debated until the cows come home with no actual answer.

Also just to correct you, modern forging doesn't refine steel, post industrial revolution/"creation of carbon steel" however traditional forging did refine iron products manipulating carbon content etc. (At least that is my memory on history of steel)


----------



## tsuriru

malexthekid said:


> You are paying for the skill and difficulty.
> 
> Same as why you pay more for difficult timbers in furniture making (thinking detailed carving).
> 
> Performance advantages will be debated until the cows come home with no actual answer.
> 
> Also just to correct you, modern forging doesn't refine steel, post industrial revolution/"creation of carbon steel" however traditional forging did refine iron products manipulating carbon content etc. (At least that is my memory on history of steel)



BRAVO! :goodpost:


----------



## labor of love

khashy said:


> I agree that it is a lot to do with knowing that the knife is as good as it can get for that particular smith.
> 
> However there is definitely an element of performance to it too. The Sakai honyakis that I have handled have been amongst the absolute best cutters.
> 
> The Shiraki White2 for example is unbelievably thin and yet beautifully stiff and it ghosts through everything, I mean everything.
> 
> So it's not like these knives are just to be looked at, they are fantastic performers.



This is most convincing thing I've read so far in this thread but I'm still skeptical somewhat(fear not I do have a honyaki on order so I'll find out for myself). I've read about higher hardness in honyaki being advantageous but there's many higher hardness San mai stuff too, so the advantage honyaki has is grain structure in this situation? Could someone explain.
Also, San mai can create stiff thin blades also, is a stiff thin honyaki blade even stiffer in use?
Panda and maybe some others have mentioned honyaki blades have more density. I'd like to hear how that attribute makes for a better blade.


----------



## khashy

labor of love said:


> This is most convincing thing I've read so far in this thread but I'm still skeptical somewhat(fear not I do have a honyaki on order so I'll find out for myself). I've read about higher hardness in honyaki being advantageous but there's many higher hardness San mai stuff too, so the advantage honyaki has is grain structure in this situation? Could someone explain.
> Also, San mai can create stiff thin blades also, is a stiff thin honyaki blade even stiffer in use?
> Panda and maybe some others have mentioned honyaki blades have more density. I'd like to hear how that attribute makes for a better blade.



Thanks Labour.

I think without photos, it's hard to realise what I am trying to convey in terms of thinness overall and specifically behind the edge. 
The thinnest san mai knife I have is probably a kotetsu. I'll try and get some decent shots for comparison tonight.


----------



## scott.livesey

instead of honyaki, let's use monosteel, a blade from one piece of steel. so one could begin the process of making a blade with a piece of 1/32"(0.75mm) precision ground flat stock. san mai,being 3 layers, will never be this thin. the advantage monosteel has is thinness. stiffness depends on the geometry of the blade. on a nakiri, the spine the spine is 1/16" from handle to point and will be relatively stiff. on my 8" chef's knife, the spin tapers from 1/16" at handle to 1/32" at 3" from point to 0.02 1/4" from the point. compared to the nakiri, this blade will flex more. on this knife, the edge is 0.0025", 0.015" 1/4" above the blade, 0.025 1/2" above the blade, 0.06" at the spine 2" above the edge at the widest spot. being this thin, the knife weighs 3 ounces. Since Hitachi cutlery steel is not imported to the US, the blade was made of O-1 from Sheffield UK. the blade was conventionally HT and is Rc63-64 edge to spine. It is not honyaki because it was shaped with files and grinders. But, the best attributes of a honyaki chef's knife were copied.


----------



## labor of love

Yeah. But why would San mai never be that thin? I understand why maybe a San mai blade may have more spine thickness but why couldnt a San mai blade be ground as thin as honyaki or mono blade?


----------



## tsuriru

Um....what is the difference between a honyaki and a monosteel ? Sorry, just trying to understand if it was shaped with files it cannot be a honyaki ?


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

I think he means honyaki as a monosteel blade that has diferential treatment? Correct me if i'm wrong.


----------



## limpet

Using Google with search term "kitchenknifeforums" followed by other useful words gave me these threads. Haven't read them (at least lately), but the topics look somewhat related to some questions posted in this thread.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/6868-Honyaki
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/22271-Honyaki-vs-Monosteel
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...on-discussions-part-1-Forged-vs-stock-removal


----------



## supersayan3

Man knives cut perfect, but Honyaki has a unique feedback feel to the cut


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

labor of love said:


> Yeah. But why would San mai never be that thin? I understand why maybe a San mai blade may have more spine thickness but why couldnt a San mai blade be ground as thin as honyaki or mono blade?



I agree. The thinness that matter (behind the edge) doesn't need to suffer because a blade is san mai. At that point there might be no cladding anymore. I also think a honyaki is not necessarily a better cutter only because it's honyaki. My Hiromoto honyaki's tip can't dice onions as smoothly because it's not the thinnest behind the edge when comparing to several san mais (after some light thinning, it improved considerably though).


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

One thing i like about honyakis (and very hard cored san mai) is that they can take more polished edges.


----------



## milkbaby

malexthekid said:


> You are paying for the skill and difficulty.
> 
> Same as why you pay more for difficult timbers in furniture making (thinking detailed carving).
> 
> Performance advantages will be debated until the cows come home with no actual answer.



^This...

Although put me down on the side that geometry and profile are a lot more important to performance than steel used or construction type (san mai, monosteel, whatever).


----------



## khashy

Okay, my best attempt given very poor lighting:

Kotetsu:





Shiraki honyaki:





Both pictures were taken at equal distance between the canera and the choil.

I hope it comes across just how ridiculously thin behind the edge the honyaki is. The kotetsu is thin BTE and I mean very thin but the honyaki takes it to a whole new level and absolutely no flex.

I am not sure this is achievable in a non-honyaki blade. I mean in a usable way - I'm sure any knife can be thinned enough and sharpened enough to look like this but that edge will not last at all. At least in my experience with what I have.

Long story short, honyaki knives rule.


----------



## malexthekid

tsuriru said:


> Um....what is the difference between a honyaki and a monosteel ? Sorry, just trying to understand if it was shaped with files it cannot be a honyaki ?



I think Scott refers to only forged knives as japanese made as honyaki????

Never responded to my comment that how blade is shaped is what makes a honyaki knife (or at least the true feature of it). Monosteel but soft spine from differential hardening.


----------



## malexthekid

labor of love said:


> Yeah. But why would San mai never be that thin? I understand why maybe a San mai blade may have more spine thickness but why couldnt a San mai blade be ground as thin as honyaki or mono blade?



In his example he might be right, however in practical terms, given spine thickness is 2+mm typical, that is plenty of thickness for 3 layers of metal. Especially with modern manufacturing techniques.


----------



## malexthekid

khashy said:


> Okay, my best attempt given very poor lighting:
> 
> Kotetsu:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shiraki honyaki:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both pictures were taken at equal distance between the canera and the choil.
> 
> I hope it comes across just how ridiculously thin behind the edge the honyaki is. The kotetsu is thin BTE and I mean very thin but the honyaki takes it to a whole new level and absolutely no flex.
> 
> I am not sure this is achievable in a non-honyaki blade. I mean in a usable way - I'm sure any knife can be thinned enough and sharpened enough to look like this but that edge will not last at all. At least in my experience with what I have.
> 
> Long story short, honyaki knives rule.



Easily achievable in non-honyaki.. check out Jon's insta page (i think) and look for pics of him thinning gingas... they start off crazy thin... when he is done it is unbelievable.


----------



## Omega

@Khashy Daaaamn that Shiraki Honyaki is beautiful. What brand is that through / who's the sharpener?


----------



## bennyprofane

@malexthekid

But Gingas are monosteel, no? So maybe not a suitable example...


----------



## dwalker

Well, here is my Yoshikazu Ikeda honyaki. Easily the thinnest knife I have ever handled.


----------



## labor of love

The choil shots are nice, but I've seen carter gyutos that thin(for example) and other stuff. Even shiraki San mai actually.


----------



## dwalker

labor of love said:


> The choil shots are nice, but I've seen carter gyutos that thin(for example) and other stuff. Even shiraki San mai actually.



That's true now that I think about it, I have seen Carters that are close to this one. Still can't say I've seen anything quite as thin. This one is thinner than any other honyaki I've seen as well. It is quite flexible though, especially at the tip.


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## malexthekid

There is no reason san mai can't be ground that thin or HT that high. You might just end up with the cladding halfway up the blade which defeats the purpose of san mai (at least in my mind).

But it also doesn't need to be that thin if a good grind is used... aka tanaka blue 2 line. Some of the best cutters out there.


----------



## Omega

@Dwalker Do you know the sharpener of your Ikeda? Also steel?


----------



## dwalker

Omega said:


> @Dwalker Do you know the sharpener of your Ikeda? Also steel?



I do not. I bought it second hand from someone who didn't know much about it. I should know soon as I am tracking down its origins now. It is a White 2.


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## scott.livesey

that is why I started saying monosteel. my guess is honyaki is a forged monosteel blade with differential hardening. one can find san mai for sale at 0.095" or 2.5mm, still a bit thicker than 0.0625"(1.6mm) i used in the knife shown or 0.03125"(0.08mm) I have used in test blades.


----------



## malexthekid

Just because it is readily available doesn't mean it is the smallest... You can buy .42mm sheet steel readily and I imagine it is possible to laminate that.. aka 1.2mm. Though don't know why anyone would want a floppy knife


----------



## labor of love

Omega said:


> @Khashy Daaaamn that Shiraki Honyaki is beautiful. What brand is that through / who's the sharpener?



I don't know where he purchased it, but aframes is very transparent about who does the forging and sharpening on their tesshu lines both honyaki and San mai.


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## Omega

@Dwalker Thanks man! Definitely interested to know. Seems a bit thinner than what I'm used to seeing from Kasahara-san.. so I was just curious. If you have any other pictures of it uploaded, I'd love to see

@labor of love Nods, oh for sure. That's part of why I was asking what the brand was- if it was Tesshu than I knew the sharpener. Wish it was possible to see a choil shot of a similarly lengthed honyaki gyuto by all the Master sharpeners.


----------



## milkbaby

scott.livesey said:


> one can find san mai for sale at 0.095" or 2.5mm, still a bit thicker than 0.0625"(1.6mm) i used in the knife shown or 0.03125"(0.08mm) I have used in test blades.



Is there some place in the USA that you're buying 0.095" thickness san mai billets? I've only seen 0.137" thick san man (eBay seller) readily available from US source, though maybe Bill Burke had some to sell via Epicurean Edge?





khashy said:


> Okay, my best attempt given very poor lighting:
> 
> Shiraki honyaki:



The core of a san mai knife could be hardened and ground just as thin as honyaki. But dang, that Shiraki is anorexic! Did it come new like that or was it thinned?!?


----------



## scott.livesey

the thinnest Aldo carries is 0.094, 52100 clad with 410 stainless. (http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/laminat/ ) as I said earlier, for whatever reason, Hitachi does not export cutlery steels like white#1 or blue#2 to the USA. That is why I have tried 1.2519 tool steel, it's composition is close to blue#2.
the picture would make more sense if there was a penny or dime on the blade for reference. the Shiraki is not anorexic, it is thin to win(should slice like a razor blade)


----------



## malexthekid

scott.livesey said:


> the thinnest Aldo carries is 0.094, 52100 clad with 410 stainless. (http://newjerseysteelbaron.com/shop/laminat/ ) as I said earlier, for whatever reason, Hitachi does not export cutlery steels like white#1 or blue#2 to the USA. That is why I have tried 1.2519 tool steel, it's composition is close to blue#2.
> the picture would make more sense if there was a penny or dime on the blade for reference. the Shiraki is not anorexic, it is thin to win(should slice like a razor blade)



Just cause it is the thinnest he stocks doesn't means its as thin as it gets. Could just be that the demand for thinner is minimal and therefore note commercial smart to stock.

As I stated, and while it seems you made a blade out of quite thin stock, 2+mm is the typical spine thickness hence the commonality of stock in that range.

Also as stated previously, honyaki isn't exclusive of forging. The differential hardening is a result of the HT process which is separate from the shaping... at least in modern knife making. Of course "traditional" or historic is different.


----------



## brainsausage

I've handled/used a couple honyaki from reputable makers and didn't feel any difference in terms of usability or 'feel' over any other well made $3-500 knife that was hardened and ground properly. Kato and Toyama come to mind. Aesthetically though...? Yeah honyaki are DAMN sexy. But if it it's too precious to actually use/beat on? Meh.


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## panda

anorexic thin grinds look like they would chip just from looking at it.


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## JayGee

malexthekid said:


> Also as stated previously, honyaki isn't exclusive of forging. The differential hardening is a result of the HT process which is separate from the shaping... at least in modern knife making. Of course "traditional" or historic is different.



But doesn't 'honyaki' translate to something like 'true forged' - so unless it's forged in a particular way, irrespective of the outcome, its not honyaki...?


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## malexthekid

I can't comment on the translation however just because that is the literal translation doesn't mean that is the intent of the term in it's native tongue


----------



## XooMG

JayGee said:


> But doesn't 'honyaki' translate to something like 'true forged' - so unless it's forged in a particular way, irrespective of the outcome, its not honyaki...?


&#26412;&#29138; Does not accurately translate as "true forged". It is the same "yaki" as teppanyaki, yakiniku, tamagoyaki, &c. More appropriately, consider the terms &#28988;&#20837;&#12428; "yakiire" used for hardening or "yakiba" &#29138;&#20995; applied to the hardened edge.


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Guys, this thread is useless unless you first agree on the meaning of honyaki term.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Just a couple observations I purchased a Maxim's Singatirin Honyaki 270mm from a forum member at a very good price. It had never even been sharpened like brand new. I sold it to a Banquet cook friend of mine who does massive amounts of cutting. He says by far the best knife he has owned. If you can find one snap it up Maxim does not carry them anymore.

The Ikazuchi at JKI is the thinnest san mai I have seen. Even the 240mm is Laser thin. The knife feels like nothing in your hand. Two of my students bought & are using them at work. To people in the industry anorexic thin grids are not suited for all work. That said I always liked having a laser in my kit. They were used a lot, but wore down faster after repeated sharpenings. not much steel there. Mine were mono steel carbons. When one wore out just get another. If I was still working would deff. have a 240 Ikazuchi. The cladding after a while takes a beating but as long as it still cuts well so what.

I screwed up my small thin Carter at home taking out a avocado seed. I still love my Carter just don't cut anything hard with it. :O


----------



## khashy

Omega said:


> @Khashy Daaaamn that Shiraki Honyaki is beautiful. What brand is that through / who's the sharpener?



Thanks. Sharpener is Kazumi Kawakita. It's from Takeshi


----------



## Matus

I would only state (probably) the obvious, that while honyaki knives can be made super thin, that does not mean that all are. In fact - when checking what is available online, quite a few in 240 size are 200+ gram. Certainly not in a laser category (in particular give the height of round 46 - 48 mm)


----------



## Omega

To mirror what Matus just posted, Honyaki definitely doesn't necessitate the blade being crazy thin.

There was a forum post by a member comparing two Shiraki honyaki; one sharpened by Kazumi Kawakita, and one sharpened by Hide-san. Incredibly different blades. While both are still amazing honyaki specimen.


----------



## dwalker

Omega said:


> To mirror what Matus just posted, Honyaki definitely doesn't necessitate the blade being crazy thin.
> 
> There was a forum post by a member comparing two Shiraki honyaki; one sharpened by Kazumi Kawakita, and one sharpened by Hide-san. Incredibly different blades. While both are still amazing honyaki specimen.



Yes, absolutely. I have another Ikeda on the way, this time finished by Kasahara. I expect it to be on the opposite end of the grind spectrum from my super thin Ikeda.


----------



## scott.livesey

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Guys, this thread is useless unless you first agree on the meaning of honyaki term.



I tried earlier when i posted Honyaki is a monosteel knife that is shaped by forging then Ht'd to give a differentially hardened blade.


----------



## scott.livesey

panda said:


> anorexic thin grinds look like they would chip just from looking at it.


a blade this thin is for slicing boneless proteins and soft fruit and veg, most sites have warnings about using thin grind blades for anything other than this. some sites even say cutting bone in meat voids the warranty


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

scott.livesey said:


> I tried earlier when i posted Honyaki is a monosteel knife that is shaped by forging then Ht'd to give a differentially hardened blade.



And earlier others wrote that forging isn't necessary these days to shape knife. One can grind blank into shape, or use bandsaw or even waterjet. And then do differential HT and still end up with Honyaki. Basically for me it's just differential HT on a monosteel knife. 

While reading this thread I have a feeling that other members often imply a bunch of different things into Honyaki term


----------



## Iggy

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> ...Basically for me it's just differential HT on a monosteel knife.
> While reading this thread I have a feeling that other members often imply a bunch of different things into Honyaki term



Same here...

"Honyaki" = differentially HT Monosteel blade

Nothing more. 
Compared to other monosteel knives only advantage I can see (I have 5 Honyakis from japanese, american, german and english smith and handled a few others) is the bigger resistance to break of the blade compared to the same blade beeing hardened through to the same level. Because of that, often Honyakis are hardened to a higher level than other monosteel knives and therefore then have better edge retention the the analogue monosteel or sanmai knife. But not necessarily!

Compared to sanmai... of course advantages are higher blade stiffness and (depending on steels and technique of the blade smith) reduced carbon diffusion at the edge. But again... theses advantages only apply with either big blades like swords and so on or on very delicate blades like a sharpened to the max yanagiba and you can get a similar result with a perfected sanmai technique.

On other blades, its just a gimmick really. But a nice looking one 

Regards, Iggy


----------



## Dan P.

I hope I'm not pointing out the obvious, but it occurs to me that honyaki and sanmai both derive from a time when steel was scarce.
Obviously there are differences in the mechanical properties of honyaki and sanmai, but it seem to me that the main difference between "common and accessible" and "rare and exclusive".
Now, if I were to speculate why "honyaki" is still a "thing" now that steel is no longer scarce, I guess that it is for the same reason that sanmai is still a "thing", i.e. a mix of tradition and marketing patter (which is not to say that either method of construction is inferior or superior to others).


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts

Steel ain't scarce - but aren't the abrasives, wear-sensitive tools and time that you need much more of to end-shape a hard monosteel compared to an awase?


----------



## RDalman

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Steel ain't scarce - but aren't the abrasives, wear-sensitive tools and time that you need much more of to end-shape a hard monosteel compared to an awase?



True indeed.


----------



## malexthekid

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Steel ain't scarce - but aren't the abrasives, wear-sensitive tools and time that you need much more of to end-shape a hard monosteel compared to an awase?



My understanding is that part of the skill with Honyaki (or super hard monosteel) is getting the forging or initial grinding to as close to final profile as possible to minimise that. I have seen several failures from custom makers where they pushed that too far.. Or were trying to really pull as much height or length out of their base stock as the possible could and get too fine at the edge.

And to Dan, I think you are pretty close, the reality in the world is, if you are just looking to chop some onions and a tomato, you really can get something for under $50 that will do that. We here are after fine tools, that are usually tuned one way or another for different aspects of cutting, but are also pieces of craftsmanship. The reality is, Honyaki is a skilled process, with a reasonably high failure rate (or at least long learning curve with many failures until you are tuned in to minimise your failures). Rightly so, customers will have to pay more for that skill. As I mentioned earlier, it is the same with all crafts, you pay for for the more difficult things, be it materials or processes, it isn't necessarily about performance. Though, you will typically find, given the effort that goes in to make honyaki, they tend to be some of the best examples of their work, as you don't go to all that effort in the HT, to just then bang on a quick edge and get her out the door.


----------



## Matus

Dan P. said:


> I hope I'm not pointing out the obvious, but it occurs to me that honyaki and sanmai both derive from a time when steel was scarce.
> Obviously there are differences in the mechanical properties of honyaki and sanmai, but it seem to me that the main difference between "common and accessible" and "rare and exclusive".
> Now, if I were to speculate why "honyaki" is still a "thing" now that steel is no longer scarce, I guess that it is for the same reason that sanmai is still a "thing", i.e. a mix of tradition and marketing patter (which is not to say that either method of construction is inferior or superior to others).



I think that getting good quality steel was only part of the equation. San Mai is probably the most practical construction (once you master forge welding) for a kitchen knife. It allows the knife to be straightened even after HT without risking breaking the knife. It can be ground and sharpened more economically as most of what is being ground is soft iron. Practical side effect is simple sharpening/thinning for the end user.

When it comes to honyaki I fully agree with what malexthekid said in the post *#75*


----------



## panda

unless it was forged and shaped from a single japanese master, i don't consider it a honyaki. if i'm paying those prices i want an original, not an interpretation. old school materials, old school process, old school technique. i'm willing to bet apprentices don't ever touch a honyaki because only the absolute best product is put out and that is reserved for the head knife maker.

i may be completely wrong but i am a believer after owning one.


----------



## jklip13

You can categorize Honyaki however you like. There is no consensus in even among knife makers. The word just means "forged in an authentic way"(although it could also mean "Grilled Book"). For some people It's Honyaki as long as it's monosteel, for others is has to be water quenched carbon steel. If you want to argue tradition, wouldn't the knife have to be Tamahagane? That would make basically all "Honyaki" misnomers. 
I think it makes for better reading if we argue and learn about the characteristics of the different manufacturing styles rather than this one word.


----------



## panda

i would love to try a tamahagane honyaki!


----------



## tsuriru

panda said:


> unless it was forged and shaped from a single japanese master, i don't consider it a honyaki. if i'm paying those prices i want an original, not an interpretation. old school materials, old school process, old school technique. i'm willing to bet apprentices don't ever touch a honyaki because only the absolute best product is put out and that is reserved for the head knife maker.
> 
> i may be completely wrong but i am a believer after owning one.



Let me just say, as someone who makes Honyaki exclusively, out of old school materials, using old school process and technique - that is a total crock! There are non-Japanese makers that adhere to Japanese customs, techniques, etc. and make some *phenomenal *Honyaki - yes very real HONYAKI - not knock-offs not interpretations, and no nonsense. Sorry if our eyes are not narrow enough to fit in with your narrow tunnel vision of "authenticity".


----------



## Iggy

panda said:


> unless it was forged and shaped from a single japanese master, i don't consider it a honyaki. if i'm paying those prices i want an original, not an interpretation. old school materials, old school process, old school technique. i'm willing to bet apprentices don't ever touch a honyaki because only the absolute best product is put out and that is reserved for the head knife maker.



Of course that's legitimate. There is kind of a philosophy going on with buying such a "masterpiece". 
Said that... my favorite of my Honyaki knives comes from England :angel2:


----------



## scott.livesey

some thoughts
blade stiffness is geometry, unless you were using aluminum as your outer sanmai layer
when discussing kitchen knives, honyaki having bigger resistance to break of the blade?? doubt you would ever see it unless the blade was being misused
different manufacturing styles?? they are all shaping forged steel. STAMPING you take forged steel stock, stamp it, HT, sharpen. 
FORGING you take a forged steel stock, forge it(whether you use a hand hammer or a 1000 ton press), Ht, sharpen. 
STOCK REMOVAL you take forged steel stock, shape with saw, grinder and files, HT, sharpen. the last method, any of us can do at home with very little equipment.


----------



## tsuriru

scott.livesey said:


> the last method, any of us can do at home with very little equipment.



We all know how a pencil is made but can most of us make a pencil? I think you are belittling the effort, knowledge, intuition, and dare I say experience needed to make a honyaki. It is wrong, on several levels, but it also begs the question: Have you made one yet?


----------



## scott.livesey

tsuriru said:


> We all know how a pencil is made but can most of us make a pencil? I think you are belittling the effort, knowledge, intuition, and dare I say experience needed to make a honyaki. It is wrong, on several levels, but it also begs the question: Have you made one yet?


Honyaki would be the second method listed. I am not belittling anyone, just trying to remove the mystery.
I do not have the equipment to forge. as mentioned in other posts, I do make blades using stock removal that are very hard(typically Rc63-65), very thin(thickness at spine as thin as 0.03" or 0.08mm), and very sharp. full flat grinds, secondary or micro-bevels of 7 to 10 dps, emphasis on balance, lowest possible overall weight, and comfort while using. 
I choose to use oil hardening steel. The HT is very consistent blade to blade and my failure rate is less than 1%. as mentioned earlier, Hitachi and other Japanese makers currently do not export their cutlery steels to the US.
My experience forging is 12 years operating and maintaining a 1600 ton Schuler Forgemaster where we made forged parts for 1.5 million FWD axle assemblies each year.


----------



## DaveInMesa

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Steel ain't scarce -



Just a minor quibble, from a historical perspective. Steel is not scarce, *now*. When these techniques were developed and (I assume) the terms coined, steel or, more precisely, iron ore _was_ quite rare in Japan. There simply are no large deposits of iron ore in Japan. What we now call "Japanese steel" is made from ore imported from, these days, most likely Australia. Or, possibly, Brazil. But, it's still "Japanese steel", because it's not steel until it's smelted, refined, and alloyed, and that happens in Japan.


----------



## tsuriru

scott.livesey said:


> Honyaki would be the second method listed. I am not belittling anyone, just trying to remove the mystery.
> I do not have the equipment to forge. as mentioned in other posts, I do make blades using stock removal that are very hard(typically Rc63-65), very thin(thickness at spine as thin as 0.03" or 0.08mm), and very sharp. full flat grinds, secondary or micro-bevels of 7 to 10 dps, emphasis on balance, lowest possible overall weight, and comfort while using.
> My experience forging is 12 years operating and maintaining a 1600 ton Schuler Forgemaster where we made forged parts for 1.5 million FWD axle assemblies each year.



That is very impressive. And in light of this it makes your earlier comment even more bewildering to me. I guess Im missing something. Sorry if I accused you falsely of belittling anyone.


----------



## scott.livesey

tsuriru said:


> That is very impressive. And in light of this it makes your earlier comment even more bewildering to me. I guess Im missing something.



If I gave you a piece of 80CrV2, a hacksaw, a file, a coarse/fine sharpening stone, a magnet, a bag of charcoal, and a gallon of canola oil, could you make a usable blade? that is what i meant by do at home with very little equipment. substitute a precision lab furnace for bag of charcoal and add a 2x72 belt grinder and assorted belts and you have my shop.


----------



## tsuriru

scott.livesey said:


> If I gave you a piece of 80CrV2, a hacksaw, a file, a coarse/fine sharpening stone, a magnet, a bag of charcoal, and a gallon of canola oil, could you make a usable blade? that is what i meant by do at home with very little equipment. substitute a precision lab furnace for bag of charcoal and add a 2x72 belt grinder and assorted belts and you have my shop.



You forget that most folks would not know where to start. You have both knowledge AND experience under your belt - so, simple setup? yes. Simple process? not really... you would need to know what you are looking at when firing that charcoal up and heating that steel. You would need to mess up quiet a few hacksaw blades to get it right, and yu would need a LOT of experience to reproduce favorable outcome over and over again.


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## Dan P.

panda said:


> unless it was forged and shaped from a single japanese master, i don't consider it a honyaki. if i'm paying those prices i want an original, not an interpretation. old school materials, old school process, old school technique. i'm willing to bet apprentices don't ever touch a honyaki because only the absolute best product is put out and that is reserved for the head knife maker.
> 
> i may be completely wrong but i am a believer after owning one.



Fair enough, but I think a honyaki blade made from only tamahagane (no kawagane), forged entirely using hand hammers in a fire made only of charcoal, shaped using only scrapers and natural stones, HT'd by eye (and using what seems to have been very wobbly to non-existant understanding of tempering) and polished entirely by hand, again using only natural stones and compounds, is going to make your piggy bank feel very empty inside!

Easy to forget sometimes that crucible steel, spring hammers, rotating abrasive stones, fossil fuels and a myriad of other things are pretty recent introductions to Japan. The conservatism of Japanese culture is part of what makes it so fascinating, particularly its kitchen knife culture. 
But... it has its idiosyncracies.


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## panda

Oh for sure prolly.cost 5 grand alone in labor. It would be a unicorn knife.


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## malexthekid

scott.livesey said:


> If I gave you a piece of 80CrV2, a hacksaw, a file, a coarse/fine sharpening stone, a magnet, a bag of charcoal, and a gallon of canola oil, could you make a usable blade? that is what i meant by do at home with very little equipment. substitute a precision lab furnace for bag of charcoal and add a 2x72 belt grinder and assorted belts and you have my shop.



And to forge all you need is that charcoal and a hammer plus some stones... what is your point?

Add some clay and you have a honyaki.. though add some clay to your mix and you can have a honyaki..

Also i highly doubt you make knives with 0.08mm stock.... even 0.8mm is stupidly thin and would give you a flimsy fillet knife. 

And finally your point about stiffness etc is true at pre yield stresses, however the point of san mai and honyaki is that the quenching process induces thermal stresses at close to or above yield by introducing the softer material allows for fixing those failures or minimising their occurrence.


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## malexthekid

I think panda likes the "romantic tradition" up until what his wallet can afford.


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## scott.livesey

malexthekid said:


> And to forge all you need is that charcoal and a hammer plus some stones... what is your point?
> 
> Add some clay and you have a honyaki.. though add some clay to your mix and you can have a honyaki..
> 
> Also i highly doubt you make knives with 0.08mm stock.... even 0.8mm is stupidly thin and would give you a flimsy fillet knife. Starrett makes O1 precision ground flat stock as thin as 1/64", so why not. you show your lack of knowledge about steel when you use the word stupidly and flimsy. 0.8mm worked well for paring knives in the 3 1/2" to 4" size. I have several from Opinel that are this thickness
> 
> And finally your point about stiffness etc is true at pre yield stresses, however the point of san mai and honyaki is that the quenching process induces thermal stresses at close to or above yield by introducing the softer material allows for fixing those failures or minimising their occurrence.



which is why I use O1 which is oil quenched and does not suffer as much from thermal stress. Additionally, samples of 1/32" O1 were quenched with chilled aluminum plates and tested at Rc64-65 following a temper at 275F.


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## malexthekid

I could respond but I am secure in my knowledge of steel, so no point. Stand by my comments though I will say I thought we were talking gyuto length not 90mm or less.

Still, what point have you been trying to make apart from blowing your own awesomeness?

Yes you can HT some modern steels in the 65 range but the simple carbons etc pose problems... hence the skill required.

Also in my experience honyaki are in the 65+ range i.e. above the range you yourself use. .

Or are you suggesting that you are some far superior to those makers that "have to use honyaki " for high hardness?

Sorry don't mean to sound like a d!ck but I still haven't seen you actually link anything you have said to the actual topic.


----------



## scott.livesey

I am not awesome, just a tired old sailor glad to be home from the sea. I am not superior to anyone, just a bearded old man who enjoys playing with steel.
the true Honyaki knife is work of art and product of a skilled craftsman. It is worth the price to pay for the time the craftsman has to spend to create it. but, it is just a cutting tool. can that sort of knife be duplicated by folks using more modern methods? yes, there are many makers outside of Japan who use the concept of honyaki as a model. when I began to journey to make good knives, I drew upon the ideals the honyaki represented and went my own way to try and make a similar blade. 
O-1 is the oldest oil hardened tool steel. the Hitachi White, is a modern, high purity, ultra-refined steel that is not exported from Japan. I use steel that I can heat treat to the the highest hardness available.
are honyaki blades made in Japan worth the price? sure, to recoop labor and such
is a honyaki blade a work of art? yes, no two are the same
are they the ultimate kitchen knife? eh, probably not
not trying to fight with man from oz, just sayin,...


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## panda

malexthekid said:


> I think panda likes the "romantic tradition" up until what his wallet can afford.



i may not be able to afford what i actually want, but the heart can still dream


----------



## Omega

@scott Oh dude what? Hitachi White 1 isn't exported from Japan? I never knew that. How does Murray carter get his?


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## malexthekid

panda said:


> i may not be able to afford what i actually want, but the heart can still dream



So says most of us


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## bryan03

Omega said:


> @scott Oh dude what? Hitachi White 1 isn't exported from Japan? I never knew that. How does Murray carter get his?



well it's harde to find ( in Eu) the shiro 1, but i can find everywhere the shiro 2....
and having 65hrc with O1 steel at only 275°F is not a "feat" , you keep a bunch of Residual austenite, keeping blade very hard like that is not at all the best way to have a good blade. the next step is forgeting to temper the blade and keep 67hrc 

sorry again my english is too limited to speak about that properly.


----------



## natto

Japanese cooking needs thin edges sharpened to high grits. To achieve the right texture of food, crazy thin cuts and more. Honyaki is one way to make such blades.

Fine grain and high hardness support thin edges. A hard quench from lower temperature should support fine grain and hardness. Tempering at low temperatures saves the hardness. The resulting edge would be good with a very brittle blade that likes to crack. To reinforce such blades a differential quench is used. Protected with clay the spine is quenched at lower speed than the edge and builds a tough structure that protects the edge.

Plain carbon steel takes the thinnest edge. Carbides weaken the steel structure. All this is well researched and documented, a nice way great knives can be made. I don't know whether a good honyaki could be made better with modern stuff, but I know it is a damn fine piece of craftsmanship.


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## tsuriru

Omega said:


> @scott Oh dude what? Hitachi White 1 isn't exported from Japan? I never knew that. How does Murray carter get his?



I'm guessing you dont really know much about Murray in terms of marriage, balde smithing education, and his connection to Japan in general etc. Being able to source a material through family ties is an exception to the rule here. Hitachi white is hard to come by as raw material outside of Japan for the average Joe, and Murray is anything but your average Joe.


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## bryan03

https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux/metal/aciers/719620/acier-papier-blanc-du-japon
https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux/metal/aciers/719621/acier-papier-bleu-du-japon-500-x-30-x-4-5-mm
https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux...is-couche-intermediaire-en-acier-papier-blanc
https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux...r-multi-couche-japonais-quot-suminagashi-quot


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## bryan03

and i spoke few months ago to Kijima Hiroaki, seller for hitachi, it was very easy yo buy 1000Kg , i remember the price : 11euros /kg. ( plus TVA , shipping etc etc etc )


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## bryan03

it was in 2015 :



> Material; Shirogami No.1 (white paper 1)
> Size ; 4.5t x 300w x 1500L
> Unit price ; 11,00EUR/kg
> Min Lots ; 1,400kg
> Date of delivery ; 12months after your P/O
> Payment terms ; ADVENCED PAYMENT
> 
> If you assent, please would you issue purchase order to us.
> 
> Best reards,
> H.Kijima


----------



## scott.livesey

Omega said:


> @scott Oh dude what? Hitachi White 1 isn't exported from Japan? I never knew that. How does Murray carter get his?



don't know. I do know that the suppliers of cutlery steel in small amounts have tried and can not get it. this would include Alpha Knife Supply, Jantz Supply, and New Jersey Steel Baron. some talk of buying from Dictum in Europe, but the cost of the material and shipping is very high.


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## Dan P.

bryan03 said:


> it was in 2015 :



And in 2012;



> Dear Dan san
> 
> Pls be informed as below.
> 
> Item1
> AOGAMI-2 T4xW35 Lenght between 2000 and 4500L MIN LOT 430kg CIF UK PORT 1410JPY/kg
> Delivery time to UK port 8.5 month after payment
> 
> Item2
> Shirogami T4xW35 Length between 2000 and 4500L MIN LOT 440kg CIF UK PORT 1140JPY/kg
> Delivery time to UK port 9.0 month after payment
> 
> PAYMENT CONDITION: PREPAYMENT
> 
> If JPY is not acceptable I will prepare EUR or GBP price. Pleaes kindly advise.
> 
> Best regards,



Not horrible, actually, but out of my budget at the time, especially when you add on import duty and weird port tax stuff.
And then there is the fact that Japanese steel comes with a lot of sizzle, but at the end of the day it is no better than equivalent steel from, for instance, Europe or the US.


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## Matus

Dan, I am not aware of any steel in active production that would directly compare to white or blue steel ind composition or purity. Maybe the UHB20C which is somewhere between white#2 and white#3


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## Dan P.

Matus said:


> Dan, I am not aware of any steel in active production that would directly compare to white or blue steel ind composition or purity. Maybe the UHB20C which is somewhere between white#2 and white#3



Matus, there are a few steels that are "equivalent" in the steel sense, i.e. low alloy cold work steels.
As for "purity", I'm afraid that is the Japanese sizzle right there; I don't know what the Japanese protocol is for generic (as opposed to batch assay) listings of impurities, but the European and US specs usually list "less than" what I believe is the maximum allowed by industry standards, if not by law.
Now, as for "purity" as in no manganese or silicon or chromium or whatever, I do know that below a certain amount alloys do not have to be listed in the EU, and I can imagine that this is true internationally as well. Thus small levels of silicon and manganese, which are essential to the modern steel production process, are absolutely, positively present in, for instance, "pure" shirogami, but it may not be listed because they are not obliged to (and it might effect that sizzle!)


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## Matus

Dan, thank you. I guess what wanted to say was the Japanese steels can be had since decades and fir decades to come in very high qualit (with impurity I meant mainly Phosphorus and Sulfur). In EU there steels like 1.2519, 125SC, 1.2442, 1.2513 and some others - but all of these (to my knowledge) are a remaining stock - more might be produced or alsi not - there is no continuous priduction. There is of course O1 (1.2510 - most if which comes from China) or 52100 (1.305) - none of which can oriduce hamon. Other then that, I was not able to find.


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## tsuriru

Matus said:


> none of which can oriduce hamon.



Matus, perhaps it would be more prudent to say that the hamon is not as accented on o1. At least this is my experience with it.


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## Matus

tsuriru said:


> Matus, perhaps it would be more prudent to say that the hamon is not as accented on o1. At least this is my experience with it.



I apologise. My understanding was that O1 does not really work well to show hamon. A quick browsing action yielded further evidence that I was indeed wrong.


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## natto

SC125 was made recently for knife makers by order from Achim. Sc145 was the first run. I guess he will provide it further! PM me for contact info.


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## tsuriru

Matus said:


> I apologise. My understanding was that O1 does not really work well to show hamon. A quick browsing action yielded further evidence that I was indeed wrong.



:thumbsup: Hamon on o1 is a very tricky thing to pull off, and they are seldom as dramatic as we would like them to be. I find that through careful etching and polishing o1 hamon can be "helped along" to a certain degree, but certainly, I can see where the misconception can arise from.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

I guess the dictum blanks would count as a semi-processed product, not a bulk export  Or might have been from some big batch of surplus stock from some stockist that went out of business in Japan or something - probably like the difference between getting some obsolete missile parts through a government bulk auction vs ordering some official spares for your old missile 

And yeah, I guess with Carter the situation is simple: Japan is where Carter says it is, period


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## JSCT

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> And yeah, I guess with Carter the situation is simple: Japan is where Carter says it is, period



Name any other maker outside of Japan making knives of white or blue made by hitachi corp. 



bryan03 said:


> https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux/...blanc-du-japon
> https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux/...-x-30-x-4-5-mm
> https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux/...r-papier-blanc
> https://www.dictum.com/fr/materiaux/...minagashi-quot



How do you know its been made by hitachi ? 
I ordered long ago but its made by takefu.


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## scott.livesey

the main reason I would like to obtain some Hitachi white or blue is to do apples to apples testing. I am currently making close to identical blades of O1, 52100, 8670, and 80CrV2. the blades will be same size, grind, and hardness, sharpened on the same stone, so any differences seen in use will be from steel composition.
I use tool steel from the same maker as the variation in composition lot to lot is kept to a minimum, so the heat treat procedure done yesterday will work tomorrow.


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## Marek07

Hope you get some soon. Look forward to seeing your comparisons when completed.


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## bryan03

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I guess the dictum blanks would count as a semi-processed product, not a bulk export  Or might have been from some big batch of surplus stock from some stockist that went out of business in Japan or something - probably like the difference between getting some obsolete missile parts through a government bulk auction vs ordering some official spares for your old missile
> 
> And yeah, I guess with Carter the situation is simple: Japan is where Carter says it is, period




did you forge ? if yes, i can send to you a small pièce of shiro 1.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

No, I do not forge or make knives - but I did see these dictum blanks since ... well, every german knife or tool nut has been through the dictum catalogs many times


----------



## Matus

natto said:


> SC125 was made recently for knife makers by order from Achim. Sc145 was the first run. I guess he will provide it further! PM me for contact info.



That is exactly what I meant. The steel is being mede in small (about 1000kg) batches - every few years some other steel. That means that a pro knifemaker either buys a stock that will last him several years (a large investment), or he may need to change steels every few years.

Thank you, I know Aachim and have some 125sc and 1.2442 waiting in line already


----------



## tsuriru

Matus said:


> That is exactly what I meant. The steel is being mede in small (about 1000kg) batches - every few years some other steel. That means that a pro knifemaker either buys a stock that will last him several years (a large investment), or he may need to change steels every few years.
> 
> Thank you, I know Aachim and have some 125sc and 1.2442 waiting in line already



So, I guess we found at least one aspect where there are better options than hitachi white. Availability.


----------



## Matus

tsuriru said:


> So, I guess we found at least one aspect where there are better options than hitachi white. Availability.



I am confused. Hitachi steels are available as long as one is ready to make a large enough order. The interesting DE/EU steels (with exception of O1 and some other tool steels) are very low volume and may or may not be produced again once the available stock is gone.

But there are some makers that apparently do manage to get their hands on Japanese steels. For example guys at Blenheimforge from UK use Blue#2 - I guess asking them whether one could get some steel from them (maybe with their next order) might work.


----------



## JSCT

Matus said:


> I am confused. Hitachi steels are available as long as one is ready to make a large enough order. The interesting DE/EU steels (with exception of O1 and some other tool steels) are very low volume and may or may not be produced again once the available stock is gone.
> 
> But there are some makers that apparently do manage to get their hands on Japanese steels. For example guys at Blenheimforge from UK use Blue#2 - I guess asking them whether one could get some steel from them (maybe with their next order) might work.



Are You sure they use steel made by hitachi and not an analogue by takefu or other company ?


----------



## tsuriru

Matus said:


> I am confused. Hitachi steels are available as long as one is ready to make a large enough order. The interesting DE/EU steels (with exception of O1 and some other tool steels) are very low volume and may or may not be produced again once the available stock is gone.
> 
> But there are some makers that apparently do manage to get their hands on Japanese steels. For example guys at Blenheimforge from UK use Blue#2 - I guess asking them whether one could get some steel from them (maybe with their next order) might work.



What you are describing is not considered "availability" in my book. You are describing a situation where a certain steel may or may not pop-up here or there at an unknown quantity and an unknown price. This might be OK for hobbyists but for a more professional setting, it is simply too unpredictable to depend on. In my part of the world it is especially hard to come by various materials, and importing anything is a nightmare due to our glorious postal service (probably the worst postal service on the face of the planet) so dependability of supply is an absolute MUST, and where it cannot be provided - thats a deal breaker. Also, in todays market it makes no sense to hoard a large stock of any material - especially steel which needs special attention when long term storage is concerned. The logical conclusion, at least here, and for me, is to rely on dependable time honored importers of dependable time honored materials wich, in the end, yield blades just as fine as the ones made of Hitachi white.


----------



## Dan P.

As has been said I'm sure a million times, it is 95% the smith, 5% the steel.

And I totally understand the mystique of a Japan made honyaki, but it is, was, and will remain true that the making of a high hardness mono steel knife with a hamon is not exactly rocket science.


----------



## Dan P.

Matus said:


> The interesting DE/EU steels (with exception of O1 and some other tool steels) are very low volume and may or may not be produced again once the available stock is gone.



I'm not sure what makes a steel interesting to you personally (I think we all, whether maker or user or both, have our personal preferences in this regard), but if it is hamon formation, there is 1.2210, BS1407, W2, as well as various flavours of 1095, i.e. 20C, CS100, etc. etc. (which being spring/washer steels seem to often have higher inclusions of manganese, which as you know will negatively affect Hamon formation).


----------



## Matus

Dan, I agree with your 95% / 5% statement completely. Well, to call a steel 'interesting' is arguably not the best wording. But yes - the steel you mention do all belong there, plus those with little more alloys (like some that I have mentioned earlier). Oh, and O1 definitely too. Tends to be underrated today as it somehow does not sound so cool, but if I am not mistaken, it was developed for knives (which most steels are not)

I do not see any 'mystique' in the japanese steels - but those are steels that are long in production, are being produced with constant quality and - if one has the means to order - also a good availability (well, I do not, but I am just a hobby maker).

There are definitely more steels available when one forges knives instead of doing stock removal. For example the 1.3505 (52100) can be had for forging, but is not available in thickness attractive for stock removal.

TC, I understand your point.


----------



## milkbaby

JSCT said:


> Name any other maker outside of Japan making knives of white or blue made by hitachi corp.



Both Weimy Cutlery and Rebelde Blades use Hitachi sourced white steel AFAIK. I believe it's through their connection to Murray Carter. It's been a while since I checked the details, but if you do the extensive bladesmithing school with Carter, at the end he provides you with a certain amount of Hitachi steel to continue your efforts.


----------



## panda

This thread got real boring real quick.


----------



## tsuriru

panda said:


> This thread got real boring real quick.



There are, so far, some very interesting insights to be had here. 

1) There is no clear consensus on the etymology of Honyaki.

2) There is no clear consensus on the specific attributes that need to be met to dub a knife "Honyaki"

3) Clearly there is a gap between what certain people WANT to hear about points 1 and 2, and what can actually be said about points 1 and 2 without slipping into magic lore and mythology.

4) There are several very interesting insights regarding materials, process, and technique that are sure to be less than boring for anyone dabbling in the arts - and that is always a great payoff.

Boring? I think not.


----------



## panda

Y'all just nerded it out which is fine for those involved but not quite entertaining for the rest of us who have no idea what is being talked about lol.


----------



## Anton

Agree with Panda 

I think we've beaten this one to death


----------



## Matus

And I apologise for being one of those who took this thread off topic. But I also think it was an interesting one.


----------



## daveb

Not every thread is a popcorn thread. 

Does Shun make any Honyaki???


----------



## fatboylim

I'm not sure how it got so over complicated. 

Isn't it just:
A ) honyaki = monosteel
B ) mizu honyaki = differentially hardened monosteel
C ) buy from a great blacksmith using one of their favourite steels; just like any knife. 

... or did I just reopen the wound...


----------



## Dan P.

Matus said:


> Oh, and O1 definitely too. Tends to be underrated today as it somehow does not sound so cool, but if I am not mistaken, it was developed for knives (which most steels are not)



O1 is a good example of a few things; Firstly it's an example of a sort of Darwinian selection of steels; it has survived where other steels have fallen by the wayside, and for good reason; Easy to HT, very fine grain, hard as woodpecker lips.
But, it's also a good example of how personal preference also effects steel choice; I know of a number of bladesmiths who will not use it because, to cut a long story short, it does not suit their process.
Similarly, Japanese blacksmiths will favour a steel like Shirogami because it suits their process. If we could imagine that cold planishing is a widespread practice amongst traditional Japanese blacksmiths, which I believe it is; Try cold planishing O1, for instance. It's not going to happen.
So, when, usually as part of a marketing ploy (which is fine), you are told that steel ABC is the best steel in the world, you can believe it, but understand that it is the best steel... for the maker.


----------



## RDalman

fatboylim said:


> I'm not sure how it got so over complicated.
> 
> Isn't it just:
> A ) honyaki = monosteel
> B ) mizu honyaki = differentially hardened monosteel
> C ) buy from a great blacksmith using one of their favourite steels; just like any knife.
> 
> ... or did I just reopen the wound...



I think honyaki = differentialy hardened mono
Mizu = waterquenched 

I got honyaki explained to me by a japanese as "true hardening" a monosteel.


----------



## Dan P.

Anton said:


> Agree with Panda
> 
> I think we've beaten this one to death



Don't like, don't read?


----------



## tsuriru

RDalman said:


> I think honyaki = differentialy hardened mono
> Mizu = waterquenched
> 
> I got honyaki explained to me by a japanese as "true hardening" a monosteel.



+1. 

I classify mine as Abura honyaki where Abura = &#27833; Oil = Oil quenched.


----------



## RDalman

Dan I think there are makers with a personal "taste" preference also when it comes to steel. It's that way for me with O1 (for chef knives). I sometimes wish I would have liked it better though :curse:


----------



## Dan P.

RDalman said:


> Dan I think there are makers with a personal "taste" preference also when it comes to steel. It's that way for me with O1 (for chef knives). I sometimes wish I would have liked it better though :curse:



Exactly. I love O1, but I can't use it because it doesn't love me back.


----------



## Matus

Now since two of you mentioned the same (and this thread went already off topic anyhow) - may I ask what issue you had with O1?


----------



## scott.livesey

O1 was the first widely used oil quenched tool steel. It also makes a good wood chisel, plane blade, wood carving tools and knives. in some industrial applications replaced by A2 because of heat treat. no one wants to maintain large oil quench system.


----------



## Anton

Dan P. said:


> Don't like, don't read?



It's an open forum, share at free will. But no need for passive aggressive comments.

All great info tho.

Feel this thread has deviated from its original intent tho and would be more useful if we break out the new subjects 

But as i said, very informative.


----------



## Dan P.

Matus said:


> Now since two of you mentioned the same (and this thread went already off topic anyhow) - may I ask what issue you had with O1?



I find it prone to cracking, while worked both hot and cold, probably because it has a more narrow working range than I am prepared to offer my steel. 
Nothing insurmountable, I'm sure, but it's something that put me off at a fairly early stage.


----------



## Dan P.

Anton said:


> Feel this thread has deviated from its original intent tho and would be more useful if we break out the new subjects
> 
> .



I'm not sure you can really discuss honyaki without discussing steels and process.


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## malexthekid

No need to fight guys.

Though i must admit sometimes it frustrates me that this forum has an aversion to threads naturally progressing topics. I understand if a thread just becomes chit chat. But this is still related to the original topic I see no harm. And its not like it matters from a searching point since the search function here is rubbish and can't even find things in titles.

I am loving the insight Dan.


----------



## Anton

Dan P. said:


> I'm not sure you can really discuss honyaki without discussing steels and process.



I don't disagree


----------



## chefcomesback

fatboylim said:


> I'm not sure how it got so over complicated.
> 
> Isn't it just:
> A ) honyaki = monosteel
> B ) mizu honyaki = differentially hardened monosteel
> C ) buy from a great blacksmith using one of their favourite steels; just like any knife.
> 
> ... or did I just reopen the wound...



Mizu honyaki = water quenched honyaki


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts

@scott.livesay DUDE, you'll never get me to leave if you bring in interesting materials history like that!


----------



## Matus

Thank you Dan.


----------



## akafat

No, I don't make knives for living. I just love knives. The theory is what I read when I'm planning to buy a honyaki, and it makes sense to me. I have a dozen of san-mai, but only one honyaki and none of them have any issues in years of use. But I do take my honyaki out of the drawer and look at it, not with the san-mai. So I guess it is a more "yes" answer to me than "no".:biggrin:


----------



## milkbaby

Dan P. said:


> I'm not sure you can really discuss honyaki without discussing steels and process.



Yup, well said, Dan! :doublethumbsup:

Going all the way back to the OP's initial question, I think it is a philosophical debate to an extent. Also a practical issue depending on whether you notice a difference in use between honyaki (however that is defined) versus non-honyaki knives.

As Scott mentioned the two steels O1 and A2,:O1 is oil quenched, "O" for oil; and A2 is air hardened, "A" for air... Trivia for y'all...


----------



## akafat

tsuriru said:


> It sounds so authoritative - almost like you have extensive experience in making both. Is that true?



No, I don't make knives for living. I just love knives. The theory is what I read when I'm planning to buy a honyaki, and it makes sense to me. I have a dozen of san-mai, but only one honyaki and none of them have any issues in years of use. But I do take my honyaki out of the drawer and look at it, not with the san-mai. So I guess it is a more "yes" answer to me than "no".:biggrin:


----------



## scott.livesey

Dan P. said:


> I find it prone to cracking, while worked both hot and cold, probably because it has a more narrow working range than I am prepared to offer my steel.
> Nothing insurmountable, I'm sure, but it's something that put me off at a fairly early stage.



never had an issue with cracking except when heat treating very thin(1/32") pieces. have you tried any doing stock removal?
on steel, I have contacted several EU steel makers who have long lists online of the low alloy, high carbon steels they make. most of the time all they have is O1 or O2 but would love to sell you A2 or D2 or their version of CPM20V.
I think that a honyaki or monosteel blade, forged or stock removal, would be better in some uses than clad blades. you can shape monosteel so it is thin yet rigid, so with a very thin edge would excel at slicing boneless protein and soft fruit and veg. In a home setting, a blade should last over 6 months between sharpening and never need more than a few passes on a ultra-fine diamond hone to maintain peak sharpness.


----------



## malexthekid

chefcomesback said:


> Mizu honyaki = water quenched honyaki



Mert out of curiosity what hrc do you aim for with your honyakis (Blue 2, W2, 52100)


----------



## RDalman

Matus said:


> Thank you Dan.


 
For me it's just I don't like how it is in use as a ready knife.


----------



## bryan03

> you can shape monosteel so it is thin yet rigid, so with a very thin edge would excel at slicing boneless protein and soft fruit and veg.



what make you think we can't make a sanmai thinner than a monosteel ?


----------



## tsuriru

RDalman said:


> For me it's just I don't like how it is in use as a ready knife.



Could you elaborate a little on this?


----------



## RDalman

tsuriru said:


> Could you elaborate a little on this?



What I mean is it's a personal taste thing where I prefer other steels for a carbon steel chefs knife. Nothing wrong or bad with the composition imo.


----------



## Dan P.

scott.livesey said:


> never had an issue with cracking except when heat treating very thin(1/32") pieces. have you tried any doing stock removal?



I'm not saying there's anything wrong with O1, quite the opposite, and I now it's highly regarded for good reasons, it's just that it does not suit my work methods which tend to be more blacksmith-y, such as radical change in section (e.g. integral bolster), cold straightening and being planished through into the black, and which don't really include stock removal.


----------



## tsuriru

RDalman said:


> What I mean is it's a personal taste thing where I prefer other steels for a carbon steel chefs knife. Nothing wrong or bad with the composition imo.



I understand, and I appreciate the fact that it's a matter of personal taste, but beyond this, can you say why you prefer other steels than carbon? Is it performance? Is it the relative ease of maintenance?


----------



## RDalman

tsuriru said:


> I understand, and I appreciate the fact that it's a matter of personal taste, but beyond this, can you say why you prefer other steels than carbon? Is it performance? Is it the relative ease of maintenance?



Yes percieved "performance". Tried it with a bunch of different HT, so I know where I feel it's best for me, I just feel better with other steels.


----------



## scott.livesey

RDalman said:


> Yes percieved "performance". Tried it with a bunch of different HT, so I know where I feel it's best for me, I just feel better with other steels.



by other steels, do you mean other high carbon like 80CrV2 and 1.2519 or stainless like 13C26 or 440C?


----------



## RDalman

scott.livesey said:


> by other steels, do you mean other high carbon like 80CrV2 and 1.2519 or stainless like 13C26 or 440C?



I work with many steels. Aeb-l, uhb20c, rwl34, Elmax, Rigor. About to try 125sc also as a honyaki option to the 20c, which have been my main carbon choice.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

No steel expert, just love carbon. My older Honyaki that I used quite a bit at work still a favorite. I had a Katana made for Tameshigiri. Forged out of a bar of W2. It has a beautiful Hamon. Any reason why W2 is not used much for Honyaki knives?


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

keithsaltydog said:


> No steel expert, just love carbon. My older Honyaki that I used quite a bit at work still a favorite. I had a Katana made for Tameshigiri. Forged out of a bar of W2. It has a beautiful Hamon. Any reason why W2 is not used much for Honyaki knives?


W2 is used pretty often for Honyaki knives. But you probably meant White #2


----------



## labor of love

Both steels are used. W2 is actually the steel for the honyaki I should be receiving soon.


----------



## dwalker

I have a Fowler W2 honyaki camp knife. It is bad ass. He makes honyaki gyutos in W2 as well.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I did mean W2 that's my Katana clay tempered with awesome hamon very sharp.

Now guess I will check out Honyaki blades made with W2 steel


----------



## Anton

keithsaltydog said:


> I did mean W2 that's my Katana clay tempered with awesome hamon very sharp.
> 
> Now guess I will check out Honyaki blades made with W2 steel



Gotta dig up some pics 
Please...


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Anton said:


> Gotta dig up some pics
> Please...



I know it sucks, using Janice's laptop cannot even load pics not my computer. It is a Jesus Hernandez katana he had it on his site for several years showing swords he had made, better pics. than I could take. Was looking for his site cannot find it. He was a Medical Doctor making katana as a passion. He even made hardware & saya. Maybe he is not making them anymore.


----------



## scott.livesey

most of the steels mentioned are carbon tool steel. these steels are iron, 1%-1.25% carbon, and 0.3% manganese. which one you use depends on where you live. In Japan, Hitachi Shirogami. In Europe, Uddeholm UHB20C. In North America, 1095 or W1. Add 0.2% vanadium, which helps keep grain fine and increases depth of hardening and you have W2. to achieve maximum hardness, these steels are quenched in water or very high speed oil.
52100, 100Cr6, 1.3505 or type 210 L1 is iron, 1% carbon, 0.3 manganese and 1.5% chromium. It will harden deeper than the first group and can be quenched in oil. used for bearing, high strength parts, and non-stainless razor blades.
O1 or 1.2510 is iron, 0.95% carbon, 1.2% manganese, 0.5% chromium, 0.5% tungsten, and 0.2% vanadium. deep hardening, oil quench, will have higher toughness and wear resistance than all listed above. 
In the quantities a small knife maker would use, O1 in US is the easiest to find. It is mostly sold as precision ground flat stock in thickness from 1/64" to 2".


----------



## fujiyama

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> W2 is used pretty often for Honyaki knives. But you probably meant White #2



How do W2 and White #2 differ? I generally write W2 or W#2 to abbreviate White #2; am I using the wrong context? 

I see White #2 honyaki offerings quite often. Yoshikazu Ikeda and Mizuno Tanrenjo are two who stand out to me.

I will not comment on the actual honyaki discussion yet...


----------



## RDalman

Aisi W2 is a different steel. Wide carbon content spec.


----------



## scott.livesey

fujiyama said:


> How do W2 and White #2 differ? I generally write W2 or W#2 to abbreviate White #2; am I using the wrong context?
> 
> I see White #2 honyaki offerings quite often. Yoshikazu Ikeda and Mizuno Tanrenjo are two who stand out to me.
> 
> I will not comment on the actual honyaki discussion yet...



biggest difference is W2 has 0.2% vanadium which is not present in Hitachi Shirogami, UHB20, W1, or 1095 steels. Hitachi shows carbon content spec with the number, White#1 having highest, White#3 the lowest.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

scott.livesey said:


> biggest difference is W2 has 0.2% vanadium which is not present in Hitachi Shirogami, UHB20, W1, or 1095 steels. Hitachi shows carbon content spec with the number, White#1 having highest, White#3 the lowest.


t's

Just looked it up also says that W2 is good for creating amazing Hamons. Guess that's why some sword and honyaki knife makers use it.


----------



## Nemo

Mert uses W2 for many of his honyakii. Many of them have cracking hamons.


----------



## Kippington

Hell yeah, 'cracking' is a great way to describe W2 hamons!
This can be done to W2 _without clay_:


----------



## Marek07

Kippington said:


> Hell yeah, 'cracking' is a great way to describe W2 hamons!
> This can be done to W2 _without clay_:


*Cracking *is an apt description indeed. Is this your work J?


----------



## Kippington

My work? Hah :laugh: I wish!

It's a Nick Wheeler.






And to throw fuel on the fire that is this thread, Wheel himself says on the topic of bringing out the hamon on this knife:

*"It's incredibly time consuming.... it takes longer for me to sand this blade to a clean enough 2500 and etch/polish it, than it does for me to forge a random pattern damascus blade, sand it to 600 grit and etch in Ferric Chloride."*

It's all part of the beauty and appeal (and price) of a Honyaki.

There's a very old thread about it on the Bladeforums: *Hey, why is your clay hardened blade so much $$$?*  (all the pics are gone)


----------



## zitangy

Very nice... the man spends alot of time extracting and coaxing out the hamon line and whatever surprises it may yield from the differential heat treatment after all the polishing and etching...

Sad to say.. on some honyakis i only see a dark patch with no white lines which i look for as it is a sign of good tempering done right. I suppose a fast and 'dirty' way to get a basic contrast... I hear that sort of "sand blasting technique ' Mild etching is fine with me as i am not a purist. I end up etching the to chase the hamon line and it does pop up

The best tht i have seen are from Ashi hamono... my view anyway....


----------



## Dan P.

Kippington said:


> This can be done to W2 _without clay_:



I'd be extremely surprised if that hamon was made without clay...


----------



## Matus

Dan P. said:


> I'd be extremely surprised if that hamon was made without clay...



Dan, talk to Robin. He does hamon without clay on UHB20C.


----------



## XooMG

he's probably talking about it in terms of the regularity of the pattern, the legs, and the turnback at the tip. It is probably doable though.


----------



## chefcomesback

XooMG said:


> he's probably talking about it in terms of the regularity of the pattern, the legs, and the turnback at the tip. It is probably doable though.



The spine thickness of the knives he is doing will make it possible, they are mostly fighter and Bowies with thicker spine where it will story hot long before the edge hardens during the quench


----------



## Kippington

Dan P. said:


> I'd be extremely surprised if that hamon was made without clay...



Prepare to be extremely surprised! :biggrin:

[video=youtube;aMxUp99Pnbc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMxUp99Pnbc[/video]

It's a different knife, W1 steel but roughly the same shape as the one above.

Wheeler shares almost every aspect of his knife making techniques online.
He has some fancy equipment to make the job a bit easier (salt baths, surface grinders, etc) but it's super impressive nonetheless.


----------



## labor of love

OP, you still here somewhere?


----------



## Dan P.

XooMG said:


> he's probably talking about it in terms of the regularity of the pattern, the legs, and the turnback at the tip. It is probably doable though.



I'm definitely probably talking about those things.

Mostly the "ashi"/legs though.


----------



## panda

labor of love said:


> OP, you still here somewhere?



Lol


----------



## OliverNuther

labor of love said:


> OP, you still here somewhere?



Probably wisely standing well back after throwing the petrol on this bonfire &#128293;. Certainly has been entertaining and informative though.


----------



## Nemo

OliverNuther said:


> Probably wisely standing well back after throwing the petrol on this bonfire &#128293;. Certainly has been entertaining and informative though.


Can you cook popcorn on a bonfire?


----------



## naifu

labor of love said:


> OP, you still here somewhere?



Yes, I am still here and glad that the subject received so much discussion.

I have read most of the posts, yet only understood about 25% of them because I know nothing about making knives out of steel. My initial assessment is pretty much the same now -- as it applies to my personal tastes and knife requirements. The analogy of expensive Swiss watch still applies from my perspective, but perhaps that will change some day. For now, my main objective is to become a better knife sharpener and a better home chef.


----------



## milkbaby

Dan P. said:


> I'm definitely probably talking about those things.
> 
> Mostly the "ashi"/legs though.



I didn't watch the video but I'd bet he leaves more variability in as forged thickness (maybe even pressing slight depressions in a press?), does the autohamon, then the even bevel grind shows up the legs. Like you, I was initially skeptical that this was done without clay, but I can see how it's possible...


----------



## Dan P.

milkbaby said:


> I didn't watch the video but I'd bet he leaves more variability in as forged thickness (maybe even pressing slight depressions in a press?), does the autohamon, then the even bevel grind shows up the legs. Like you, I was initially skeptical that this was done without clay, but I can see how it's possible...



Maybe, but I think it's more likely that "knifemaker who can do clayless hamon" somehow became "knifemaker who only does clayless hamon".

Personally I think the hamon shown is beautiful and shows the high skill level of the maker, however it was made- clay or no clay, water or oil, in a 500 yr old Japanese forge on a misty mountainside or in the parking lot of an Akron shopping mall.


----------



## Matus

naifu said:


> ... For now, my main objective is to become a better knife sharpener and a better home chef.



You have the right priorities :thumbsup:


----------



## Chef Doom

Buying a honyaki for the home is like buying a Nissan Z or Mazda Myata for grocery shopping.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Chef Doom said:


> Buying a honyaki for the home is like buying a Nissan Z or Mazda Myata for grocery shopping.



When does practical mean much. Many home cooks here have knife collections that would put a vast majority in the industry to shame. A Honyaki on a end grain board will still cut well & look cool, a sports car is pretty useless for a Costco run.


----------



## Chef Doom

keithsaltydog said:


> When does practical mean much. Many home cooks here have knife collections that would put a vast majority in the industry to shame. A Honyaki on a end grain board will still cut well & look cool, a sports car is pretty useless for a Costco run.


It's kind of like how many watch collectors can have dozens or hundreds of watches. At the end of the day, you only have two wrists and it is not practicle for the average person to drive a sports car, where a rolex everyday, or cook meals regularly with a hynoki. I don't care how many knife nerds browse this forum.


----------



## labor of love

Chef Doom said:


> Buying a honyaki for the home is like buying a Nissan Z or Mazda Myata for grocery shopping.



I mean I sorta agree with you but at the same time many if not most pros can't afford honyaki or don't want to spend that kind of bank on a knife, I'm still glad a market exists overseas(outside of Japan) anyway.


----------



## Chef Doom

labor of love said:


> I mean I sorta agree with you but at the same time many if not most pros can't afford honyaki or don't want to spend that kind of bank on a knife, I'm still glad a market exists overseas(outside of Japan) anyway.


Its like going to a strip club where the cover is $25 and the lap dances are $50 per song. It is not meant for the average Joe or even high paid white color employee. It is a place where lobbyests try to convince politicians to support or kill various legislation. I myself tend to avoid restaurants where most of the clientele has an expense account even if I can afford the food.


----------



## malexthekid

Chef Doom said:


> Its like going to a strip club where the cover is $25 and the lap dances are $50 per song. It is not meant for the average Joe or even high paid white color employee. It is a place where lobbyests try to convince politicians to support or kill various legislation. I myself tend to avoid restaurants where most of the clientele has an expense account even if I can afford the food.


 So McDonalds and Burger King are your restaurants of your choice?


----------



## scott.livesey

malexthekid said:


> So McDonalds and Burger King are your restaurants of your choice?



I prefer Wendy's myself. as I said in the sharpening thread about the $150 sandpaper holder, it is all in how you want to spend your money. Is a $1000 honyaki really going to cut that much better than a properly sharpened $5 Kitchen Essential? a chef friend said he had the money and bought 5 very nice, expensive knives to use at work. after two months, 2 were stolen, the others "borrowed" and tore up. His work knife roll now is Dexter or Mundial. when edge can no longer be sharpened using a steel, they go to thrift store and he buys a new one.
are honyaki examples of good craftsmanship and skill? is it ok to charge high prices so the craftsman is properly paid for his time? will a properly sharpened less expensive knife do kitchen tasks as well? yes to all


----------



## jessf

Chef Doom said:


> Its like going to a strip club where the cover is $25 and the lap dances are $50 per song. It is not meant for the average Joe or even high paid white color employee. It is a place where lobbyests try to convince politicians to support or kill various legislation. I myself tend to avoid restaurants where most of the clientele has an expense account even if I can afford the food.



That escalated to an oddly specific frame of reference.


----------



## Drosophil

The real question is: are they differentially naked strippers?


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I don't know about fast food, been eating it for years and seem to be getting slower.


----------



## Matus

jessf said:


> That escalated to an oddly specific frame of reference.


+1


----------



## panda

malexthekid said:


> So McDonalds and Burger King are your restaurants of your choice?



i love both big mac and whopper but have strong preference for big mac. plus mcdonalds fries are delicious and their system of dispensing coca cola is bar none the best tasting.


----------



## labor of love

Taco Bell has the best crushed ice and it's not even close.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Taco Bell once in a while, Mcdonalds have not been in one for 20 years. Eaten a quite a few Whoppers. At least they have some vegetables. These days they all have double beef patties, cheese, & bacon no vegetables if I ate one of those might keel over with a heart attack. :O

My fast food these days is L&L Drive Inn, I like their Shrimp Curry.


----------



## YG420

keithsaltydog said:


> Taco Bell once in a while, Mcdonalds have not been in one for 20 years. Eaten a quite a few Whoppers. At least they have some vegetables. These days they all have double beef patties, cheese, & bacon no vegetables if I ate one of those might keel over with a heart attack. :O
> 
> My fast food these days is L&L Drive Inn, I like their Shrimp Curry.



Loco Moco!


----------



## jessf

I think the last few posts demonstrate that conversations are easier, with fewer misunderstandings, when there is a clear set of terms and words everyone can refer to. Unless of course the conversation is about defined those words and terms.


----------



## Chef Doom

jessf said:


> That escalated to an oddly specific frame of reference.


I could have used a country club reference but I don't golf or play tennis.


----------



## Chef Doom

Forget about fast food. It is all about the fast casual. 

I know they are mostly the same but I want to mantain my stance of making superior health choices.


----------



## labor of love

....I'd like to hear from people that have used multiple honyakis and tell me which one is their favorite and why....(hold steady, just changing the direction of this thread some)....


----------



## Wdestate

labor of love said:


> ....I'd like to hear from people that have used multiple honyakis and tell me which one is their favorite and why....(hold steady, just changing the direction of this thread some)....



i currently got myself a collection of honyaki. makers are Ikeda(and his passed brother Tatsuo)/togashi/ashi/shiraki. My personal favorite are from Yoshikazu Ikeda and Kenji Togashi. The Togashi has more weight to it then all the others,which I like since most of the other are rather thin and light blades. I think the person who grinds it and finishes the profile changes it a lot for me and i just so happen to really like the Ikeda profiles i have. I got them in a widee range of steels to and in all honestly they all feel the same to me in all aspects, go figure.


----------



## labor of love

Cool. Thanks for sharing. If I ever have this kind of $$$ I'd go with this one
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...70mm-white-2-mizu-honyaki-wa-gyuto-in-ichii-1
Maybe one day I'll sell a few things and take a chance.


----------



## JBroida

labor of love said:


> Cool. Thanks for sharing. If I ever have this kind of $$$ I'd go with this one
> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...70mm-white-2-mizu-honyaki-wa-gyuto-in-ichii-1
> Maybe one day I'll sell a few things and take a chance.



too late... just went this afternoon


----------



## malexthekid

I'm waiting for Jon to get in one of those western Gingas I remember (at least I think I remember) from several years ago... hopefully by the time one comes back I have saved the coin for it


----------



## Chef Doom

labor of love said:


> Cool. Thanks for sharing. If I ever have this kind of $$$ I'd go with this one
> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...70mm-white-2-mizu-honyaki-wa-gyuto-in-ichii-1
> Maybe one day I'll sell a few things and take a chance.


If you were truly serious you would take out a personnal loan and put up some sort of collateral.


----------



## Omega

JKIs Blue#1 Honyaki by Shiraki/Hide has really been fascinating me.. Especially after that review on the forums comparing it to the Tesshu.


----------



## labor of love

Chef Doom said:


> If you were truly serious you would take out a personnal loan and put up some sort of collateral.



I'm not that serious. And I don't do credit or anything that involves interest. And I already have a honyaki on the way that has a much smaller price tag. The honyaki I linked is just a hypothetical honyaki unicorn.


----------



## Chef Doom

labor of love said:


> I'm not that serious. And I don't do credit or anything that involves interest. And I already have a honyaki on the way that has a much smaller price tag. The honyaki I linked is just a hypothetical honyaki unicorn.


Come on, join the rest of us credit based living sheep in our pool of life long debt. The water is just fine. Barely at a simmer.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Boiled Lamb :O


----------



## fujiyama

I've been trying or an hour to embed this photo.. because of that, I'm a bit impatient at the moment. :laugh:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BYyAQWwFYes/?hl=en&taken-by=fujiyama91

I've refrained from posting as I don't hold the knowledge and experience with honyaki blades as others. 

I received this honyaki some time ago and immediately returned it to the blacksmith to be replaced. According to the blacksmith the blade itself is straight and so is the edge. But because the left side is a bit thinner, it appears the blade is not straight when looking down the handle. :eyebrow:

It was very hard to capture in photos (and I wasn't able to capture the bend in the edge), but I'm certain this honyaki warped after quenching. What's your take?


----------



## HRC_64

fujiyama said:


> I wasn't able to capture the bend in the edge...
> What's your take?



edge? what edge?
Also, is that a hollow grind single bevel?


----------



## fujiyama

It is a double bevel gyuto (looking down the spine). 

I didn't include a photo of the edge, as I wasn't able to capture a good one.


----------



## dwalker

Could be it warped during quenching. Most do. Perhaps it wasn't straightened prior to grinding. This could cause a wavy spine while having a true grind. Did you confirm the edge and grind were good as the blacksmith claimed? It is hard to tell for sure from photos. But that looks pretty extreme.


----------



## JBroida

did you look at edge straightness?


----------



## fujiyama

Yes. When I was inspecting the edge for straightness, I observed a twist near the heel close to where you see it warped at the spine. As I said, I wasn't able to capture a photo of what I observed on the edge. 

I figured if only the spine was bent, it may be able to be bent back. But if the harder steel at the edge is also bent, bending it back will either a) cause a crack or b) weaken the integrity and shorten the lifespan 

Either way, I can't accept the gyuto in this condition. 

I don't understand the blacksmiths explanation at all. They essentially told me that the blade and edge are straight. He says that the spine is thinner on the left side, creating the optical illusion that it's bent.


----------



## HRC_64

Fujiyama, 
Apologies for thinking that was a choil shot. 
Just goes to show what kind of trick perspectives can play on you. 

0.O

Amazon has 150mm machinist rules for cheap money. 
Basically once you have a proper straight edge, 
you can document (for your own sanity ) 
where the blade is/is-not in planar alignment.

Good luck either way.


----------



## JBroida

fujiyama said:


> Yes. When I was inspecting the edge for straightness, I observed a twist near the heel close to where you see it warped at the spine. As I said, I wasn't able to capture a photo of what I observed on the edge.
> 
> I figured if only the spine was bent, it may be able to be bent back. But if the harder steel at the edge is also bent, bending it back will either a) cause a crack or b) weaken the integrity and shorten the lifespan
> 
> Either way, I can't accept the gyuto in this condition.
> 
> I don't understand the blacksmiths explanation at all. They essentially told me that the blade and edge are straight. He says that the spine is thinner on the left side, creating the optical illusion that it's bent.



japanese smith?


----------



## fujiyama

No worries 64. Thanks for the suggestion. The knife is no longer in my possession though. 



JBroida said:


> japanese smith?



Indeed.


----------



## JBroida

yeah... people underestimate the hardheadedness of craftsmen in japan


----------



## fujiyama

You got that right!

I can't believe the quality control .. this is the most expensive gyuto I've ever purchased. 

They should have never installed a handle on this blade, let alone sell it at a premium. It should have been scrapped.


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## Chef Doom

fujiyama said:


> You got that right!
> 
> I can't believe the quality control .. this is the most expensive gyuto I've ever purchased.
> 
> They should have never installed a handle on this blade, let alone sell it at a premium. It should have been scrapped.


Wabi-sabi bro!


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## HRC_64

I do sympathise with somebody doing all the work on a blade and having to roll the dice during HT.
Imagine having a batch of them go into the junk drawer for some minor flaw.

but yeah no winners either way.


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## Kippington

HRC_64 said:


> I do sympathise with somebody doing all the work on a blade and having to roll the dice during HT.
> Imagine having a batch of them go into the junk drawer for some minor flaw.
> 
> but yeah no winners either way.



It's still a cop-out. Those are some pretty low standards right there that someone was willing to try and push off as something done on purpose. Maybe it was done on purpose by someone that doesn't know what they are doing...
There are heaps of things you can do to improve your chances of a blade coming out of the quench straight. If all else fails and the blade bends in the heat treat, there's nothing stopping you from quenching it again.


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## fujiyama

I agree, we may sympathize but we also know the premium being paid is to cover those loses. If a whole batch goes into the junk drawer, that's the cost of business.

No master blacksmith should be rolling the dice on a quench and heat treatment. Many years of experience and skill should be applied at these times. 



Chef Doom said:


> Wabi-sabi bro!



:lol2: That brightened my night.


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## RDalman

fujiyama said:


> I agree, we may sympathize but we also know the premium being paid is to cover those loses. If a whole batch goes into the junk drawer, that's the cost of business.
> 
> No master blacksmith should be rolling the dice on a quench and heat treatment. Many years of experience and skill should be applied at these times.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol2: That brightened my night.



I agree about the cost of business and was sad to see your story. Just want to point out that as a customer you indeed want the blacksmith to "roll the dice" and make a aggressive quench on a knife like this. To get the best of these steels that's what it takes, there's no way of playing it safe and also get the steel to it's best.


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## Marek07

RDalman said:


> I agree about the cost of business and was sad to see your story. Just want to point out that as a customer you indeed want the blacksmith to "roll the dice" and make a aggressive quench on a knife like this. To get the best of these steels that's what it takes, there's no way of playing it safe and also get the steel to it's best.


Didn't realise that such risks were necessary. A complex business to be sure.


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## Kippington

Marek07 said:


> Didn't realise that such risks were necessary. A complex business to be sure.


You thought those broken blades lying around my garage were all _*fun and games*_? :shocked3:

:razz:


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## Marek07

Kippington said:


> You thought those broken blades lying around my garage were all _*fun and games*_? :shocked3:
> 
> :razz:


Well... you are learning *and *having fun. Perhaps too much at times? :wink:
But we're talking experienced blacksmiths here. Should they be sending out honyakis like this?


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## scott.livesey

Marek07 said:


> Well... you are learning *and *having fun. Perhaps too much at times? :wink:
> But we're talking experienced blacksmiths here. Should they be sending out honyakis like this?



that is on the blade smith. the knife that is my daily user in the kitchen had a 1/8" warp over the 12" of the blade. no way I would sell something like that. When you are trying to get maximum hardness from high carbon steel like Shirogami white, you must quench in water or brine. you literally have 5 or 6 seconds to cool the blade from 800C to room temperature. when you quench in water or brine, you must be prepared to hear the dreaded "tink" as half the blade you are quenching is now at the bottom of your tank. with a low alloy high carbon steel such as O1 or Aogami Blue 1, you can use high speed oil and have less chance of breaking or cracking. all just part of the joy of blade making


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## adam92

j


khashy said:


> Okay, my best attempt given very poor lighting:
> 
> Kotetsu:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shiraki honyaki:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both pictures were taken at equal distance between the canera and the choil.
> 
> I hope it comes across just how ridiculously thin behind the edge the honyaki is. The kotetsu is thin BTE and I mean very thin but the honyaki takes it to a whole new level and absolutely no flex.
> 
> I am not sure this is achievable in a non-honyaki blade. I mean in a usable way - I'm sure any knife can be thinned enough and sharpened enough to look like this but that edge will not last at all. At least in my experience with what I have.
> 
> Long story short, honyaki knives rule.


Just curious your shiraki with such a thin edge, does it chip easily? edge retention would be big different from your kotetsu?


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## khashy

adam92 said:


> j
> 
> Just curious your shiraki with such a thin edge, does it chip easily? edge retention would be big different from your kotetsu?



I have a really soft board and am careful about what I cut and how I cut it, so I haven’t experienced chipping thankfully.

As to comparison to the Kotetsu, I cannot really comment, I do not use the Kotetsu at all.


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## adam92

khashy said:


> I have a really soft board and am careful about what I cut and how I cut it, so I haven’t experienced chipping thankfully.
> 
> As to comparison to the Kotetsu, I cannot really comment, I do not use the Kotetsu at all.


I see, cutting board really important. Especially after using hi-soft & hasegawa.


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