# That which shall not be named



## CompE (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm curious about the stones that cannot be named from the site that cannot be named. Every attempt that I have made to search I get a flood of known fanboys and promoters. Can anyone point me to any honest reviews?


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## tkern (Sep 12, 2013)

Has it gotten this far already?holy **** people's personal vendetta's are stupid. 

Korin's combination stones are good for the money, dave or marks suehiro 1200k stone will put you knife in a good place. The "bricks" dish a lot and i"ve never reallly had a use for them.


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## tripleq (Sep 12, 2013)

Opinions are based upon how people sharpen, what they sharpen and what products they have used in the past. Best thing to do is pick up a stone and try it. Make the opinion yours.


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## CompE (Sep 12, 2013)

tripleq said:


> Opinions are based upon how people sharpen, what they sharpen and what products they have used in the past. Best thing to do is pick up a stone and try it. Make the opinion yours.



I don't really need another stone right now, and I don't want to spend the cash just to try one. I'm just curious and would like to find a good honest review by someone other than the guys pushing the products.


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## RLParker (Sep 12, 2013)

it would seem as if the question is automatically set up to solicite a given response. Any positive opinion would automatically be deemed fanboyism and discredited. Hardly a way to reach a rational decision.

BTW, one only needs to lurk for awhile to learn that calling one set of enthusiasts fan boys is the pot calling the kettle black to the 10th degree.


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## Flyingpigg (Sep 12, 2013)

Are you talking about Latte 400? If so, I have one, and I'm willing to give an honest review of it. However, it's the only coarse stone (by which I mean 400-600 grit range) that I've owned as I've only been sharpening knives for the past half year or so, and I can't really give you any comparison to other coarse stones. I'm considering doing a passaround to get other people's opinion, and if you're interested, I'd even be willing to temporarily swap this stone with you for another coarse stone so we both get some experience. 

As of right now, my opinion of it is that it's decent. It cuts at an okay rate, but I wouldn't call it amazingly fast. It seems to dish pretty quickly though as I've gotten some noticeable dishing after an hour of sharpening a really dull German steel knife, but I've read that coarse stones tend to dish pretty quickly no matter what. I may also be using too much pressure on it.


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## labor of love (Sep 12, 2013)

the stones ive used/owned from both the bamboo and *** series are overpriced for what they are. they are priced pretty similar to gesshin and chosera and they arent half as good.


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## daveb (Sep 12, 2013)

I've found that if a specific product question is posed, that responses are pretty unbiased (though they still are opinions). If question is linked to a vendor then responses may skew a little. Which stone is being considered?


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## labor of love (Sep 12, 2013)

FWIW my experience is mainly with the low grit stones in kens line, the green 400 grit is one of them.


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## ThEoRy (Sep 12, 2013)

CompE said:


> Every attempt that I have made to search I get a flood of known fanboys and promoters.



Why do you think that is?


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## JDA_NC (Sep 13, 2013)

At the risk of getting in some hot water....

I really, really like a certain 'speckled' 1k stone.

It's the only stone I've tried from the line but it's a very nice feeling stone and it cuts very fast.

I have not used the Gesshin 2k or Bester 1.2k which are probably my next moves in that grit range (the JNS 800 looks awesome too... so little money, so many stones) - but I am very happy with the purchase.

It dishes fairly quick in my experience so it requires constant flattening but it is by no means a 'bad' stone.

I use it & a Suehira Rika 5k as my standard 1-2 punch for my work knives and I personally find it very effective. But I am not in the business of sales and I understand and respect why people would not wish to do business with certain folks - but objectively, as far as stones go, I am a fan of this 1k stone. My two cents.


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## DSChief (Sep 13, 2013)

It's a fact of life that retailers would push their own house labels, For some, thats good they invest the time & money
to test and in some cases tweak formulas for the stones. That being said, there are only a finite number of
companies that do the actual production. Googling "japanese whetstones" or something as germane as 
'Bladeforums" will result in tons of hits to mine for info. 
The names that come up most often indicates basic truths, they work & people like them.

My shopping list of "Generic" must haves { Every body sells them, even Amazon } so nobody gets offended.

Naniwa chosera 400 & Bester 1200 { "MY" perfect starting kit, One could survive with just these 2 }

Next Suehiro Rika 5k

Gesshin 1 K extra large This is a luxury item, but I love to use it. { before the bester if I'm stopping there. or the Rika. }

The rest you can live with out, But they are fun to play with:
Naniwa Snow White 8k & a Kitayama

a Jumbo JNS Binsui I'm sorry I mentioned this by retailer. But this thing is a beast


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## Culverin (Sep 16, 2013)

Hi guys,

I'm new here. I've been using some Chinese stones for sharpening.
I have a combination stone for rough work from Chan Chee Kee.
Then I move up to some generic Chinese stones at 3000 and 5000 to finish.

At each stage, I notice an improvement in blade performance.
Are generic stones that bad?

I presume that a nicer branded stone may cut nicer and work faster and probably last longer, but generic stones won't hurt my knives will they?


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## ThEoRy (Sep 16, 2013)

The stones wont hurt the blade unless they have toxic inclusions or lines in them. Human error will though. Say you have an extremely slow cutting stone, it takes longer to cut the bevel, therefore more time on the stones, more room for error, hands/arms get fatigued etc.


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## CompE (Sep 16, 2013)

RLParker said:


> it would seem as if the question is automatically set up to solicite a given response. Any positive opinion would automatically be deemed fanboyism and discredited. Hardly a way to reach a rational decision.
> 
> BTW, one only needs to lurk for awhile to learn that calling one set of enthusiasts fan boys is the pot calling the kettle black to the 10th degree.



I wrote "that which shall not be named" because any attempt to name the line of stones that I'm referring to or the place that sells them is replaced with ***** on this site. I can understand not allowing links to non-approved vendors, but sometimes this site's rules make it difficult to have serious discussions.

I am not discrediting any positive review. I say that I can only find fanboy and pusher's reviews because I can mostly find dozens if not hundreds of reviews from a few people. Two of those most prolific sources sell the stones (Ken and Mark), and the third gives glowing reviews of absolutely everything sold at that place (**************). There are some vendors that I would trust because I know that they have heavily tested their products before they will consider putting it on their site. Back at the old site, you can read how Dave tested some stones for months and sent them to independent testers before making them available on his site. At the other place, dozens of stones suddenly became available in a very short period of time. That doesn't mean that they are all junk, but I'm going to want to see some independent 3rd party reviews. And sorry **************, but if in your reviews you love (or hate) EVERYTHING, your opinion is useless to me.

I can only recall a couple of reviews that weren't made by one of the 3 reviewers mentioned above. Cliff Stamp gave a review of a 24 grit stone. (Everyone seems to either love him or hate him, but my google search of his name was entertaining.) Personally, I'm not sure what to make of a guy whose stone holder doubles as his left hand. I also found a review comparing a 320 vs. the Beston 500. That particular review was interesting, but I didn't think that the two stones were close enough in grit to compare, and the pro's and con's that the reviewer listed led me to the opposite conclusion that the reviewer made. There are a handful of other reviews done by people who clearly had nothing else to compare against. "I needed to compliment my *** stone with something coarser/finer so I contacted Mark (or Ken) and he hooked me up with *** which I like just as much as the first".

I'm most curious about the 150 grit stone from the same line, how it compares against using an Atoma plate for rough work, and how the Latte 400 compares vs. the Gesshin 400 (is i the same stone?) Beston 500 and Chosera 400. Based on what I've seen, I would stick with my Atoma plate, and I would probably go with a Chosera or Gesshin 400 if/when I'm ready to move on from my Beston. But, really I'm curious about the entire lineup. Some of the offhand comments here would give you the impression that you are better off picking up bricks from Home Depot. I really don't doubt that they are serviceable, even if overpriced. With the size of the lineup, you'd think that one or two of them might even be worth the price. Has anyone here found a stone from that line that they really like?

EDIT comment:

One name that I tried to type (didn't edit out myself) was edited out. I can't even mention "that guy" to say that I don't trust his reviews!


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## CompE (Sep 16, 2013)

DSChief said:


> It's a fact of life that retailers would push their own house labels, For some, thats good they invest the time & money
> to test and in some cases tweak formulas for the stones.



You are absolutely right that retailers will push their own products. However, some retailers invest time and money to test their products, others do not. I've been around long enough to form my own opinions regarding which vendors fall into which category.


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## Justin0505 (Sep 16, 2013)

I don't really understand what you're getting at / your logic.

On one hand you've got unknown quality product from a site with known paid or solicited reviews that appears disreputable to you and on the other hand you've got dozens of alternatives in the form of well known, excellent products from honorable retailers that support this community. 

Are you asking just out of curiosity or would you seriously consider buying the stones from a source where you couldnt even trust the reviews just to save yourself a buck?


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## chinacats (Sep 16, 2013)

Justin0505 said:


> I don't really understand what you're getting at / your logic.
> 
> On one hand you've got unknown quality product from a site with known paid or solicited reviews that appears disreputable to you and on the other hand you've got dozens of alternatives in the form of well known, excellent products from honorable retailers that support this community.
> 
> Are you asking just out of curiosity or would you seriously consider buying the stones from a source where you couldnt even trust the reviews just to save yourself a buck?



lus1: this makes no sense to me either...


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## CompE (Sep 16, 2013)

Justin0505 said:


> I don't really understand what you're getting at / your logic.
> 
> On one hand you've got unknown quality product from a site with known paid or solicited reviews that appears disreputable to you and on the other hand you've got dozens of alternatives in the form of well known, excellent products from honorable retailers that support this community.
> 
> Are you asking just out of curiosity or would you seriously consider buying the stones from a source where you couldnt even trust the reviews just to save yourself a buck?



Mostly curiosity. There are certain stones that I would not buy from that site because I know that they didn't do their own research on them and I have spent a couple of extra dollars at other sites where they did the original research. The stones from that site's in-house lines appear to be unique to them, where they actually did the research themselves. If they found a real winner on their own (accidentally or as a result of real research), then why not buy it? The problem with untrustworthy people is that you can't trust them to lie or be wrong 100% of the time.


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## bahamaroot (Sep 16, 2013)

But the fact that they are untrustworthy people to begin with is exactly why you stay away from them 100% of the time, even if they do actually have a quality product. They can't be trusted and don't deserve the business.


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## daveb (Sep 16, 2013)

So if Tony said all Fiats were great. And Tony's friends said all Fiats were great. And then one day Tony built a Fiat that was OK. And they all said it was really really great. Would you believe them or just buy a Toyota?


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## Midsummer (Sep 17, 2013)

I like the new Hyundai genesis.


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## ThEoRy (Sep 17, 2013)

I drive a Dodge Charger RT.


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## JohnnyChance (Sep 17, 2013)

CompE said:


> I'm most curious about the 150 grit stone from the same line, how it compares against using an Atoma plate for rough work, and how the Latte 400 compares vs. the Gesshin 400 (is i the same stone?) Beston 500 and Chosera 400. Based on what I've seen, I would stick with my Atoma plate, and I would probably go with a Chosera or Gesshin 400 if/when I'm ready to move on from my Beston.



I just upgraded from a Chosera 400 to a Gesshin 400 and I like just about everything about the Gesshin better. Bigger, feels much, much nicer, clogs less, and so far seems to cut similar & dish less.


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## Justin0505 (Sep 17, 2013)

I didn't mean to say that the CKTG was, by any means the worst of the worst, but it's just that there are so many other really fantastic options, especially when it comes to stones. IMO the worst part of CKTG is their association with Ken S. as their sharpening expert -the guy is terribad (this is judging from posts, videos, and examples of his work that I've seen 1st hand). The knowledge, experience, and research that Dave, Jon, and Marko have behind the products that they sell is so much better that it's not even comparable. -and that's not even considering the issue of honor, respectability, and plain ol' like-ability. 

There are some knives that CKTG sells that are not readily available elsewhere or for even close to the same price and are known and established to be very good, but as far as stones go, I've never even been tempted.

I'm basing my opinions on "alternatives" for my experience that the Gesshin 400, 4k, and Dave's monster blue synth aoto all perform better than advertised. The Takishima from Jon has to be the best value in jnats currently going. I have 3 others that originated with Maxim that are excellent and very true to his descriptions. I've also got a 140 atoma from Dave and a custom 8k diamond from Marko. I dont feel like I have a NEED for more stones, but I often consider new stuff and will probably buy more just because the experience with what I've got so far has been so enjoyable.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 17, 2013)

bahamaroot said:


> But the fact that they are untrustworthy people to begin with is exactly why you stay away from them 100% of the time, even if they do actually have a quality product. They can't be trusted and don't deserve the business.



So I'm assuming you also refuse to shop at Walmart or basically any other major corporation? I don't understand why a significant number of people on this forum seem to believe that capitalism shouldn't apply to the knife world. Competition is good, except when it effects you (or your friends in this case), right?

We've seen two ways of dealing with competition. You could constantly complain about how unfair and 'evil' the other guy is, then take your ball and go home, and build your own fantasy world where you can pretend he doesn't exist. Or you could build a brand that features unique products and distinguishes itself on quality... which approach has been more successful? 

And speaking of trust, this blind hatred for Mark seems to have influenced some formerly trustworthy people's judgment. I own an Artifex in aeb-l (I'm poor and it was a gift), and yes it's thick as a brick behind the edge and inconsistently ground, but it does have very good steel. If some people can't admit that, then they're just as partisan and untrustworthy in my book.


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## jaybett (Sep 17, 2013)

Isn't being curious a good enough reason to pick up a stone? Try it out, share what you find out with the forum. Want a second opinion? Do a pass around. 

Jay


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## Justin0505 (Sep 17, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> So I'm assuming you also refuse to shop at Walmart or basically any other major corporation? I don't understand why a significant number of people on this forum seem to believe that capitalism shouldn't apply to the knife world. Competition is good, except when it effects you (or your friends in this case), right?
> 
> We've seen two ways of dealing with competition. You could constantly complain about how unfair and 'evil' the other guy is, then take your ball and go home, and build your own fantasy world where you can pretend he doesn't exist. Or you could build a brand that features unique products and distinguishes itself on quality... which approach has been more successful?
> 
> And speaking of trust, this blind hatred for Mark seems to have influenced some formerly trustworthy people's judgment. I own an Artifex in aeb-l (I'm poor and it was a gift), and yes it's thick as a brick behind the edge and inconsistently ground, but it does have very good steel. If some people can't admit that, then they're just as partisan and untrustworthy in my book.




I think you're missing an important distinction between aggressive capitalism (trying to game supply and demand, corner markets, etc.) and being deceitful. Capitalism isn't "wrong", just a bit tactless when you use the free exchange of knowledge and experience in a small community to do it and the people you're undercutting are some of it's members (and also the ones that supplied that info). That will piss some people off and might not make you many friends, but it is, as you put it, good for the undiscerning consumer and maybe even good for the market as a whole to make more products available to more people and at a lower cost. 

However, I think that the stuff that really gets people fired up is the sense that (intentionally or not) some of the marketing on social media and descriptions listed on his site are misleading, inaccurate, or just plain wrong.
This is exemplified with the Artifex: none of problems with thickness bte, or the grind are mentioned in the description or any of the reviews on the site. The truth is that it's a $90 knife with good steel and terrible finish grinding that needs a few hours of pretty skilled work in order to really make it a decent knife. Now, for someone who has more time and skill than money, that might be an attractive proposition. But the problem is that the potential customer is not made aware of that when they're making the decision to buy one. 
It's a knife that's clearly marketed to poor and inexperienced students and kitchen pros, who are the least likely to have the knowledge, skills, or equipment to fix the poor-performing knife effectively or the money to send it to someone (or even the knowledge of who to send it to).
Another problem is that AEB-L was popularized by one of the best kitchen knife makers and heat-treat wizards in the world. It's a steel that really takes some knowledge and small, very well controlled batches to get all of the legendary performance out of it. So, people have heard that AEB-L is great (and it is when used in 4-figure custom by Devin Thomas) but the same qualities will not necessarily transfer well to a full production/factory batch-heat-treat environment. 

It would be one thing if he sold / market the AEB-L like some custom car shops sell their kits / replicas: "here's what you're getting, and here's the work it will require." If you want box of parts and raw materials and to do the assembly and finished work yourself, great! here's what that will cost. But, if you want something finished with all the work done except adding fuel and turning the key, they here's the addition labor cost to have us to that for you."

If the Artifex was really ground, finished, and sharpened properly, it would have to cost more, maybe more than it's intended customer could afford. But the problem is that he's passing off rough finish as final finish. 
Yeah, he offers "special sharpening" at an added cost, but that doesn't even begin to address the problems with the blade and from what I have seen first-hand and in pictures, the premium sharpening job is inconsistent at best and comically bad at worst. 

Walmart intentionally prays on the poor and the ignorant. They sell crappy products to people too ignorant to know better and/or too poor to afford better and in many cases with no other alternative close by because Walmart has intentionally driven them all out of business. But the main reason why I don't shop there isn't because I don't like their business practices; it's because I don't want to risk spending my money on crap, when there's non-crap available elsewhere at a price that I can afford.
Even if some of what they sell isn't crap, I doubt it's as good or better than the alternatives. 

I think that comparing Mark to Wally is a bit harsh, but you're the one who brought it up and you seem just as clueless about each of them and what possible objections anyone could have to them.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 17, 2013)

Justin0505 said:


> I think that comparing Mark to Wally is a bit harsh, but you're the one who brought it up and you seem just as clueless about each of them and what possible objections anyone could have to them.



Really? I think it's an apt comparison, given the limitations of the knife world. Your 2nd to last paragraph is a good description of both, although I wouldn't say 'prey,' because poor and ignorant people genuinely WANT what they're both selling... As to how clueless I am, all I can say is 

Do you remember when Mark first joined the boards? I remember him as seeming to be a decent guy, had his own small retail operation, and seemed to be genuinely interested in the how and the why of steel, sharpening, etc. I don't believe Mark started with deceit in his heart, like he wanted to use our collective knowledge to further his career... Maybe he was a con artist from the beginning and maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to believe that he was a genuine enthusiast who happened to be in a position to make a profit, and so he did. If anyone's to blame, I'd point my finger at the consumer, who has continued to reward him for questionable behavior.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 17, 2013)

Justin0505 said:


> Another problem is that AEB-L was popularized by one of the best kitchen knife makers and heat-treat wizards in the world. It's a steel that really takes some knowledge and small, very well controlled batches to get all of the legendary performance out of it. So, people have heard that AEB-L is great (and it is when used in 4-figure custom by Devin Thomas) but the same qualities will not necessarily transfer well to a full production/factory batch-heat-treat environment.



And how is this exactly? I've read this before, but no one can seem to explain the physics behind it. Does heat treating with fewer knives make you inherently more in control of the temperature? Is DT manipulating the temperature during the process based on some sort of spidey sense? Seems like some kool-aid drinking bull to me


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## JBroida (Sep 17, 2013)

in heat treating, there are steps which dont lend themselves well to large quantities due to time constraints, the amount of work involved in each step, tight tolerances, and so on. On the other hand, there are steps which lend themselves very well to large batch heat treating. Depending on the kind of steel, the results you are looking for, etc, the ideal process will vary. Its not magic, just reality. It also generally happens to be true that the more you try and push the limits of the steel with which you are working, the more attention to detail in each step, and the more time sensitive each step is.

Take AEB-l for example... on paper, its a truly unremarkable steel... not a high amount of carbon, no crazy alloying, etc... just a pretty simple steel. I get the sense that people feel like its a super steel, but in reality, its got less than 0.7% carbon, which most users here would generally scoff at. As a comparison, 440c, which is a steel that nearly everyone here thinks of as subpar, looks a lot better on paper. The fact is that both steels have potential to be great (yes, there are good knives out there with composition like 440c), and both can be crappy. It depends on the makers knowledge of the steel and abilities in heat treating. As i said before, you will find that some steels lend themselves better to small batch heat treating (when you are looking for specific results and are pushing the boundaries of what that steel can do), while others work great in large batches.


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## toddnmd (Sep 17, 2013)

JDA_NC said:


> At the risk of getting in some hot water....
> 
> I really, really like a certain 'speckled' 1k stone.



I wish I had an idea of the product you're referring to. I'd guess a good number of other people are confused as well.

I don't like the sense that we can't have an open, honest discussion on here.


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## Justin0505 (Sep 17, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> Really? I think it's an apt comparison, given the limitations of the knife world. Your 2nd to last paragraph is a good description of both, although I wouldn't say 'prey,' because poor and ignorant people genuinely WANT what they're both selling... As to how clueless I am, all I can say is



With Walmart, I think that the customers' expectations for quality are lower: they know they're buying cheap crap for the most part. Where Walmart is deceitful is in how it portrays itself as a benevolent and altruistic organization with the best interest and well-being of it's employees and it's customers' communities in mind. 
In the case of CKTG, I think that the customer wants value and the DESCRIPTION of what Mark's selling. With the exception of perhaps Moritaka and some of the Richmond brand, I'd say that what he's selling is actually pretty clear and is no different than any other retailer other than lower prices and sometimes better availability of exclusive or hard to get items (sometimes this is actually due to special agreements between Mark and the supply source to make CKTG the only US retailer of a particular product). The vast majority of what he sell is not crap. 
But again, where Mark deviates from just plain ol' capitalism is when he attempts to pass off flawed and inferior products as equivalent to something of much higher quality. 



spaceconvoy said:


> Do you remember when Mark first joined the boards? I remember him as seeming to be a decent guy, had his own small retail operation, and seemed to be genuinely interested in the how and the why of steel, sharpening, etc. I don't believe Mark started with deceit in his heart, like he wanted to use our collective knowledge to further his career... Maybe he was a con artist from the beginning and maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to believe that he was a genuine enthusiast who happened to be in a position to make a profit, and so he did.


Yep, I thought the same thing and still do. It was clear that his enthusiasm far out-paced his knowledge and his desire to make money is stronger still. Certainly nothing to damn him for, and he had a dorky, enthusiastic likeability to him. I think that initial problems with the Mori and Richmond knives came from his own lack of knowledge and listening to bad advice and feedback from people who either knew even less than him or where flat-out bullshite artists (Kenny S.). However, how long does that excuse really last for? How many years in the business and how hard is it to hold a crap knife next to a good knife and see / feel the difference? Yeah there are excuses like CKTG grew too fast and his margins and turn-around times are too razor thin to do proper quality control, but it doesn't make it right. At some point he had to realize that there where serious problems with some of the knives going out his door and he chose to do nothing (or not enough) about it. I'm sure the way that he justified it and still doesn't feel like hes doing anything wrong is because people keep buy the crap and saying that it smells like roses.


spaceconvoy said:


> If anyone's to blame, I'd point my finger at the consumer, who has continued to reward him for questionable behavior.


couldn't agree with you more


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2013)

whoops


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2013)

JDA_NC said:


> At the risk of getting in some hot water....
> 
> I really, really like a certain 'speckled' 1k stone.


the 1k that mark tried to claim was the same stone that maxim carries? i think in a video comparision it was decided that they cut much differently.


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## Ruso (Sep 17, 2013)

Did you know that the majority of Amazon comments are fake and paid for? I mean, common, capitalistic practices are ruining small shops, you want it or not. And how they say it - it's all fair in love and war - and capitalism is essentially a war between competitors. 
I really liked this comment:


> Competition is good, except when it effects you (or your friends in this case), right?



Unfortunately the cookie crumbles not like we would love it to sometimes


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## mhlee (Sep 17, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> Do you remember when Mark first joined the boards? I remember him as seeming to be a decent guy, had his own small retail operation, and seemed to be genuinely interested in the how and the why of steel, sharpening, etc. I don't believe Mark started with deceit in his heart, like he wanted to use our collective knowledge to further his career... Maybe he was a con artist from the beginning and maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to believe that he was a genuine enthusiast who happened to be in a position to make a profit, and so he did. If anyone's to blame, I'd point my finger at the consumer, who has continued to reward him for questionable behavior.



Yes. I remember. He pushed Shapton Glasstones, didn't know how to flatten a stone, or sharpen until Dave Martell showed him how. 

He also started selling all of Dave's recommended stones and sold them at a discount versus Dave's prices to take away Dave's stones sales, which he did, took Dave's reviews as his own, and began selling many other products sold by others vendor that were popular, e.g. Fujiwara Teruyasu, Sakai Yusuke, etc. - or openly copying products - e.g., Gray Kunz spoon. 

If he were a "genuine enthusiast" as you put it, you would think he would know more about geometry - which he apparently doesn't based on the various knives in his own line that he sells that have horrible geometries based on reviews here, that he would have gone to Japan years ago - he's only gone once, he would have learned more about knife making, sharpening or grinding that he would at least understand or be able to do some work on his own - he doesn't, etc. 

And, based on reviews I've read here about the AEB-L of the Artifex, it's not a good steel. Some of the great qualities of properly heat treated AEB-L, e.g., ease of sharpening, carbon steel-like performance, are absent from the Artifex AEB-L.

And, if you're going to continue shopping him, then you too are continuing to reward him for questionable behavior. It's your choice. But, you're exactly the type of consumer you just criticized.


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## SpikeC (Sep 17, 2013)

I don't know why anyone bothers to respond to the ranting of this "cowboy". He wants to shill for the other guy and makes up arguments that are pretty absurd. This thread is now in my kill file.


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## Culverin (Sep 17, 2013)

I picked up both a Tojiro DP and the Artifex 210 gyutos.

While I like the feel of the Artifex in my hand over the Tojiro, the blade doesn't seem to bite into the food.
Compared to that, the Tojiro seems to laser through everything.
It's weird, if I use just a little force, the Artifex works great, but if I am gentle, it doesn't catch.

Is this a matter of steel? Did I get duped?

I sharpen all 4 of my knives the same way from a rough all the way to 5000, the Tojiro, Yoshikane and the Artifex all get the same treatment.
But the the Artifex doesn't bite?


Is there a specific way to sharpen the Artifex that I'm doing wrong?


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 17, 2013)

Culverin said:


> I picked up both a Tojiro DP and the Artifex 210 gyutos.
> 
> While I like the feel of the Artifex in my hand over the Tojiro, the blade doesn't seem to bite into the food.
> *Compared to that, the Tojiro seems to laser through everything.*
> ...



That would be because the stock geometry is crap.


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## chinacats (Sep 17, 2013)

Best comparison yet is Mark to wallyworld. They both sell crap and count on their customers to either not know or not care. I don't/won't shop at either of those crappy retailers. I do feel sorry for those duped by either as I have been duped by both in the past myself. 

Cheers


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## Baby Huey (Sep 17, 2013)

Not to slam anyone on this thread or forum I have found that those that embrace capitalism in this fashion (by using examples like Wal-Mart) are usually for capitalism for their own gain. I am aiming this at the consumer as if prices drop in the throes of competition then they end up paying less for what they want. Most people are too narrow minded to see that this is why our economy is in a downward spiral. More Mom and Pops cannot afford to buy small quantities and resell at a profit because the larger organizations are paying people minimum wage and buying in ultra bulk amounts to get the pricing at absolute rock bottom. Which is all well and good as long as it does not affect your specific profession. Too many people these days are me me me and want to work less to afford things. That situation is understandable, but comes at a price. I know I am fairly new here, but enjoy this community for what it is and personally choose to help support this community. 

Now I am sure I will get slammed back by people explaining themselves again and how that is the way to do it because that is the way it is done in other larger sectors of the economy. I choose to support people that deserve to be supported. The way it used to be in the old days. Just remember the only reason the old days are the old days is that common practices and courtesies have been put to the wayside to save a buck here and there. If saving that buck here or there is more important to you, then you are part of the problem, no matter how you try to convince me or others why it is ok to do it.

Don't mistake my input into this conversation to be any form of fanboyism or whining, as I was not around when the actions discussed here happened. This can be the same conversation on any number of forums in any number of languages world wide. 

Now it is time for people to get defensive and lash out.

FLAME ON!!!
:angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode:


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## CompE (Sep 17, 2013)

I don't think that comparing Mark to Walmart is fair to Walmart. Although Walmart sells some low quality house-branded items, everyone knows that they are lower quality and they charge a lower price for them. At CKTG, the house branded products are priced similar to well-known premium products and he advertises them as though they are premium products. For various reasons, I won't trust many of reviews that I've seen; and even if I could trust them they are short on comparisons to known products. But bad data is bad data, not a proven lie. Unfortunately, it is difficult to get any idea if these products are any good because it is taboo to discuss them here. Sorry, I'm not in the habit of shelling out $100 out of curiosity. I consider this a (unfortunately not very active) hobby and I do my research before I make a purchase. For the record, based on the what little information that I have gleaned, there aren't any house-brand stones over that that would give me a compelling reason to try them. Thank you to those who provided real information on the products, not just rehashed information on people and business practices.

I don't mean to defend or demonize Mark. If you recall (some of you may not have even been around that far back), the community encouraged Mark to start carrying knives from various Japanese makers that were relatively difficult to acquire, often needing to be shipped direct from Japan after a multiple month wait. Mark made those knives immediately available to the community. Things went sideways when he started carrying sharpening supplies. Dave spent months researching products like the Atoma plates and Suhiro Rika 5K, and Mark immediately started carrying them for a discount. Then he started carrying the Immanishi 10K stone and letting people think that it was the same as Dave's JKS 10K (Dave verified that his 10K stone was unique and will no longer be made). I would pay Dave double for those products before I would ever consider looking at CKTG for them. I also know that there was some bad blood between Keith of HA and Dave; I never found out why or what happened there, but I can only imagine it was also related to some stolen research. And then Mark went off the deep-end, pushing products like the "Gizmo" and Edge-Pro while failing to warn customers about the caveats of such devices; "designing" and selling knives without any apparent review or refinement process while marketing them as beyond incredible. Those practices are not only unfair to the competition, but they do a disservice to his customers as well.

Yes, what happened sucks. And no, I have no intention of rewarding them where he crossed the line. I would never send anyone over there for advice. But you know what? I would still buy a CCK cleaver from him; he did the work to contact CCK so that he could import them and make them readily available to the US market because we asked him to do it. But, it's been 2+ years since this started and I still can't even try to get a little information about products that they are exclusively offering, products that they haven't stolen any research on, without starting more of this nonsense on this site.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 17, 2013)

I've been reading this post, Question, does anybody have any popcorn?


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 17, 2013)

toddnmd said:


> I don't like the sense that we can't have an open, honest discussion on here.



Yes! This is the heart of the problem



JBroida said:


> in heat treating, there are steps which dont lend themselves well to large quantities due to time constraints, the amount of work involved in each step, tight tolerances, and so on. On the other hand, there are steps which lend themselves very well to large batch heat treating. Depending on the kind of steel, the results you are looking for, etc, the ideal process will vary. Its not magic, just reality. It also generally happens to be true that the more you try and push the limits of the steel with which you are working, the more attention to detail in each step, and the more time sensitive each step is.
> 
> Take AEB-l for example... on paper, its a truly unremarkable steel... not a high amount of carbon, no crazy alloying, etc... just a pretty simple steel. I get the sense that people feel like its a super steel, but in reality, its got less than 0.7% carbon, which most users here would generally scoff at. As a comparison, 440c, which is a steel that nearly everyone here thinks of as subpar, looks a lot better on paper. The fact is that both steels have potential to be great (yes, there are good knives out there with composition like 440c), and both can be crappy. It depends on the makers knowledge of the steel and abilities in heat treating. As i said before, you will find that some steels lend themselves better to small batch heat treating (when you are looking for specific results and are pushing the boundaries of what that steel can do), while others work great in large batches.



Thanks for the explanation Jon. I can imagine that a small batch of aeb-l from Devin would have better performance than an Artifex, but I'm curious how significant the difference actually is (probably hard to find anyone who owns both a DT custom and an Artifex). I still think that many here reflexively crap on Mark's aeb-l due to biased reviews from particular people. It's not super steel, but very decent, especially for the price.

I don't have much experience with different steels, but I've owned an Aritsugu A-ko, Konosuke regular stainless and HD, and Misono swedish. Mark's aeb-l is better than Konosuke's regular stainless, harder, better edge retention, easier to sharpen and deburr. Significantly enough that I can say so with confidence even though it's been a while since I owned the Konosuke. I'm hesitant to compare the HD, because it's much closer to Mark's aeb-l. My impression is the HD was slightly harder to deburr and had slightly better edge retention, but either way it's definitely similar in quality.

So based on my experience, I get suspicious when certain people with skin in the game say Mark's aeb-l is gummy, hard to deburr, has bad edge retention, etc. Maybe I lucked out and they got a bad one... Kinda sad that it's hard to trust anyone anymore, which is probably the worst effect of the Great Schism of '11.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 17, 2013)

mhlee said:


> If he were a "genuine enthusiast" as you put it, you would think he would know more about geometry - which he apparently doesn't based on the various knives in his own line that he sells that have horrible geometries based on reviews here, that he would have gone to Japan years ago - he's only gone once, he would have learned more about knife making, sharpening or grinding that he would at least understand or be able to do some work on his own - he doesn't, etc.
> 
> And, based on reviews I've read here about the AEB-L of the Artifex, it's not a good steel. Some of the great qualities of properly heat treated AEB-L, e.g., ease of sharpening, carbon steel-like performance, are absent from the Artifex AEB-L.
> 
> And, if you're going to continue shopping him, then you too are continuing to reward him for questionable behavior. It's your choice. But, you're exactly the type of consumer you just criticized.



I said he WAS a genuine enthusiast 

Either those reviews are biased, I got an excellent Artifex, or they got crappy ones... I really wish I knew. I can say with confidence that the aeb-l of my particular Artifex is very decent steel, is easy to sharpen, somewhat carbon-like, easy to deburr, and has decent edge retention. 

I don't remember saying I was going to continue shopping there though... My next purchase is probably going to be a baseless Suehiro Rika, which I'm planning to get from Tools from Japan, because I do feel dirty giving my money to Mark.

But I would have gladly bought another Artifex if he made a 240 gyuto in 52100 (before I found out about the Lamson collaboration knife). Why? Because I love the narrow sabatier profile, which no one else is doing. And I actually prefer the balance and feel of bolster-less full-tang knives. Wa handles are too blade heavy and don't feel as sturdy, bolstered knives are too handle heavy... The point is, he was the only one offering the kind of knife I wanted, so I wouldn't have minded rewarding him for it. Now thanks to Pierre and Tom, I will gladly pay extra for a knife I don't have to spend hours thinning.


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2013)

toddnmd said:


> I wish I had an idea of the product you're referring to. I'd guess a good number of other people are confused as well.
> 
> I don't like the sense that we can't have an open, honest discussion on here.


what are you talking about? seems to me people are being brutally honest here, almost too honest. i think its funny that the original point of this thread was to hear honest feedback about marks stones, yet nobody besides me and One other person have chimed in with an opinion. to the OP,that should really tell you something.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 17, 2013)

SpikeC said:


> I don't know why anyone bothers to respond to the ranting of this "cowboy". He wants to shill for the other guy and makes up arguments that are pretty absurd. This thread is now in my kill file.



Nice attitude. Just dismiss what I'm saying and don't bother responding to any of my points. Since you're not going to do it, would anyone else care to explain how exactly I'm shilling for Mark or making up absurd arguments?



Timthebeaver said:


> That would be because the stock geometry is crap.



Correct! The Artifex needs hours of thinning to make it into a decent knife. OOTB bevel is too steep, and thick behind the edge. If we could talk about these problems reasonably, without partisanship or resorting to code words, more noobs would know what they're getting into.


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## Talim (Sep 17, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> Correct! The Artifex needs hours of thinning to make it into a decent knife. OOTB bevel is too steep, and thick behind the edge. If we could talk about these problems reasonably, without partisanship or resorting to code words, more noobs would know what they're getting into.



I been to other forums where none of those are talk about and yet they still recommend the Artifex for noobs who have no ideas about bevels, thinning, or even sharpening. Why would anyone recommend a knife that needs a ton of work to noobs is beyond me. Thankfully I found this forum before I fell into that trap.


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## ar11 (Sep 17, 2013)

As a relatively new member, interesting to hear some of the backstory. Everytime CKTG pops up people crap all over it and I never understood why. If I'm putting the pieces together right Mark and everyone else use to be on a forum board in the past, but shady business practices blew that apart and KKF was formed? I did buy something from Mark recently, but all this has made me hesitant to do so again.


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2013)

you guys do realize that many of the forum members here are here because we dont like mark, we dont like his phony marketing and his insincerity, and his awful customer service. i would much prefer to let laying dogs lie, but some new forum member, or some new thread appears almost monthly making it necessary to rehash this old crap. if you want to rave about how awesome your artifex is around here, you should really be prepared for criticism or anti mark comments, thats the way things have been for a while and i dont see any reason why that would change.
also, wouldnt it make more sense to simply go to marks forum to discuss his knives? especially how they need to be fixed,lol? im pretty sure most noobs that stick around this forum should know better than to pick up an artifex,if they do their research.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm going to be brutally honest here. I've stayed out of this discussion because the only thing I have to input to it might bend the rules just a bit (Dave, please feel free to remove this if it does). You guys see on my avatar that I'm a hobbyist knifemaker. I only started making kitchen knives relatively recently (within the last three months). Before I begin making ANY new style of knife (or sword)...I research. A lot. If I can get good examples in hand, I do that. I pore over the internet for any reference to the kind of knife I'm wanting to make. The better the reviews, the more eager I am to pick one up just to see what a properly performing knife of the type I'm intending to design should look like.

I think you can see where I'm going here.

In my research I found this forum...but I also found a TON of references to the Artifex as THE EPITOME of a high performance kitchen knife. On forums, youtube, everywhere. And the price! I thought to myself...'Wow, I'm going to pick one of these up...if they perform like these guys say, this will be a great example to show me (a guy who had never used a better kitchen knife than a 'Good Cook' from WalMart) what a proper high end gyuto should look like!!'. Thank God I ran into Son first...and found this forum...or I literally might have thought that a high performance kitchen knife should be thicker behind the edge than my all purpose prybar EDC.

:eyebrow:

Again...I don't know Mark...I barely know Dave. But I know what I've seen in the marketing for the Artifex...and I know enough (through having made, and used enough kitchen knives that WORK now) to know that the broadhead arrow geometry in the Artifex just doesn't live up to that hype. This is regardless of steel, heat treat, or anything else. I can't stand when people take others for money, and it pisses me off even worse when being open and trusting to a normal degree can get you taken like that. Being ill informed in an arena of flooded marketing hype does NOT give license to someone to screw you for your money.

:rant: off.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 17, 2013)

I don't feel like I'm raving about my Artifex. That's the problem I have with the attitude around here. If Mark did somehow find a good stone, we would never know because anyone who said a kind word about it would be dismissed outright.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 17, 2013)

Labor is right on here. 



labor of love said:


> you should really be prepared for criticism or anti mark comments, thats the way things have been for a while and i dont see any reason why that would change.


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## jaybett (Sep 17, 2013)

CompE said:


> ....Sorry, I'm not in the habit of shelling out $100 out of curiosity. I consider this a (unfortunately not very active) hobby and I do my research before I make a purchase. For the record, based on the what little information that I have gleaned, there aren't any house-brand stones over that that would give me a compelling reason to try them. Thank you to those who provided real information on the products, not just rehashed information on people and business practices.



Most of the knives and stones, that people are aware of on the forum, are because somebody took a chance and bought one. On the old ITK, Fish and Lee, use to send international postal money orders, to Japan, and then have to wait months, and hope that a knife would show up. I believe it was Lee, who either discovered Takeda or was a very early user. CCK became known, because a knife nut, out of Utah, went into an Asian market and bought one. The Suehiro Rika stones were found by users on Foodie Forum. Heck even the infamous Ken, was an early user of Chosera.




CompE said:


> ....But, it's been 2+ years since this started and I still can't even try to get a little information about products that they are exclusively offering, products that they haven't stolen any research on, without starting more of this nonsense on this site.



It's common knowledge that the forum has a negative view of CKTG, and yet you hope to get information on a product that they sell? Some how that doesn't quite add up. 

The forum has a lot of good information on popular topics, try to get information on something more obscure and you have to do your own research, as in buying the product. 

Jay


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2013)

​who cares dude?who freakin cares if by some miracle mark happened to discover something on his own instead of copying what other vendors do? again, mark has his own forum, and it really makes more sense to discuss his products there.


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 17, 2013)

So............ does anyone know if Black Steel is better than White or Blue?


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## jaybett (Sep 17, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> I don't feel like I'm raving about my Artifex. That's the problem I have with the attitude around here. If Mark did somehow find a good stone, we would never know because anyone who said a kind word about it would be dismissed outright.



The ironic side of me, says that he finally had a product, that his competitors would find worth stealing. 

If the stone was good, it might take the forum a little longer to acknowledge it. If three or four members were to make positive comments, that would get peoples attention. A sharpening guru, who is positive about the stone, would probably create a run. 

Jay


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## jaybett (Sep 17, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> So............ does anyone know if Black Steel is better than White or Blue?



Black duh? It says so right in the description.

Jay


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## Flyingpigg (Sep 17, 2013)

I think a lot of people who had issues with the Richmond Artifex's AEB-L knives got it when they first came out. If you look at most of the negative reviews regarding gummy burrs on this forum, they're from about 2 years ago. There's been some changes to it compared to the first release, but it appears as if these changes are mainly cosmetic and with heat treatment, not geometry; for example, there's been a light curve added to the choil to make it more comfortable to hold. I purchased a 240 mm AEB-L gyutoback in July before I really started reading this forum, and retrospect, I would have just payed the extra money to get a CarboNext or Gesshin Uraku. However, I put quite a bit of work into the Artifex to thin it down, and it's performing pretty well for me. I also got a good amount of experience thinning and sharpening knives when I was doing this so I consider the experience a plus, and I feel like it's made me better at sharpening knives. I currently use this knife as my beater knife, and I'll loan it to people when necessary. I haven't had enough experience with knives to speak for the edge retention compared to other knives in a similar price range, but I need to sharpen the Artifex every 3 weeks or so using a Suehiro Rika 5k to get the performance that I want from it. I hone using the Messermeister 1200 grit ceramic rod with light pressure, 4-5 strokes a side (8-10 total), on a day to day basis. I work about 60 hours a week in various kitchens and cut mostly on plastic boards. I do keep the knife as clean as I can, but one of the places I work at is a cramp, high volume gastropub so things don't always work out for me. The convex grind that this knife is suppose to have doesn't seem to make a very big difference in terms of food release, but it maybe due to the fact that I ruined it while I was thinning the knife. Even if this is the case though, the fact that the knife necessitates a lot of thinning kind of defeats the purpose of the convex grind. I also notice an overgrind on the knife, although there's a slim chance that this was due to my improper sharpening and thinning, although I don't think that this is the case. I did not know how to spot overgrinds when I first purchased the knife. Either way, there's this small section near the heel where my knife has a small hole in the edge, and it definitely affects cutting performance and ease of sharpening. 

I bought a Delbert Ealy 240 mm gyuto made with AEB-L recently, and I've found that it's a bit easier to sharpen and the geometry is much better. It's thinner, wedges less, and food release is really nice. However, it also costed 450 dollars for me as oppose to the 95 that I payed for the Artifex. I don't use this knife as much as I do the Artifex, so I can't speak for edge retention yet. 

Ultimately, I think that the Artifex isn't as bad as many people try to make it out to be, and it's not a terrible purchase. It's definitely an upgrade over the classic German knives that many cooks and chefs work with. However, there are definitely better options out there unless you're looking for the experience of thinning a knife down and learning about how to sharpen knives.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 17, 2013)

The prow of the Titanic would have had excellent food release as well :l.


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## CompE (Sep 17, 2013)

This site has the greatest concentration of knowledge regarding kitchen knives and kitchen knife sharpening on the internet, which is why I look here for reviews and advice. I appreciated the few opinions that were offered. You tried some coarse stones, they aren't as good as others and they are overpriced. That was worth more to me than all the videos and the love-ins at other forums, not because I'm looking for bad reviews of the products, but because I trust the opinions of the people on this site as real experts who gained that expertise through research and trial-and-error, not self proclaimed experts in an echo room.

Honestly I didn't expect to get too many reviews because I didn't expect too many people here to patronize CKTG. I would consider the discussion so far to be a step forward compared to where things were two years ago. Maybe we can try again in a while... about never years from now sounds good to me.


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## Mrmnms (Sep 17, 2013)

Mucho Bocho said:


> I've been reading this post, Question, does anybody have any popcorn?



Mucho, do you sous vide popcorn too?


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 17, 2013)

People carp on about the great value of the Artifex, but for less money you can get a Sugimoto 210 which cuts great straight out of the box, is a piece of piss to sharpen and, most tellingly, doesn't have a grind/geometry that looks like it was set by a chimp.


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> People carp on about the great value of the Artifex, but for less money you can get a Sugimoto 210 which cuts great straight out of the box, is a piece of piss to sharpen and, most tellingly, doesn't have a grind/geometry that looks like it was set by a chimp.


but the sujimoto isnt made from the aebl super duper steel.


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## Justin0505 (Sep 17, 2013)

My lay-understanding of AEB-L is that the ingredients don't sound remarkable, but the way that they combine with each other and are arranged (when the steel is properly HT'ed) is what makes the magic happen. 
Carbon and rockwell can be deceiving, because AEB-L forms extremely hard, very fine, and very evenly dispersed carbides. These carbides are harder than any blade will ever measure on the RHC scale. As a side note this is also my understanding as to what made the original damascus / wootz steel so special: it could be relatively soft and very durable and strong, but was hundreds of years ahead of every other metal on the planet in terms of sharpness because of it's carbides / very unique grain structure which was created by forging and heat treat. 

I just remembered that I shouldn't have even tried to explain this because THE Hoss himself has already done it better than I ever could: http://www.devinthomas.com/faq.cfm

You can give 2 bakers the identical cake-mix and one will create something moist and airy and perfect and the other will cast a cinder block. 

My experience with 3 different AEB-L blades made by DT and one made by WillC is that the steel has an ability like none other to take a crazy fine, very polished edge (to the point where other steels would lose all their teeth) and still maintain a frightening level of bite and aggression. Overall edge retention is very good, but where it really shines is the amount of time that it can hold onto the first 100-95% sharpness. 
It easily makes my list of top 3 kitchen knife steels (certainly the best stainless). 

Many of the descriptions of the steel by Artifex owners sound like they aren't even talking about the same steel as my experienceS: "Gummy" feeling, problems with wire edge, problems with the edge running / not biting. 

This has gone a bit OT , but I think that it all just goes to the point of the trustworthiness of CKTG in representing their own products accurately.


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## Culverin (Sep 17, 2013)

So If I fix my edge,

The Artifex should in theory perform better than my Tojiro DP?


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2013)

CompE said:


> I wrote "that which shall not be named" because any attempt to name the line of stones that I'm referring to or the place that sells them is replaced with ***** on this site. I can understand not allowing links to non-approved vendors, but sometimes this site's rules make it difficult to have serious discussions.



I'm frustrated! Is there a way for someone to tell me what the unnameable stones are called? Seems like everyone else on this thread knows, and I really don't feel like poking around the unnameable website to find it.


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## labor of love (Sep 17, 2013)

nuuuu baaaa taaaaaaa maaaaa stones


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## DitmasPork (Sep 17, 2013)

labor of love said:


> nuuuu baaaa taaaaaaa maaaaa stones



Cheers!


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## James (Sep 17, 2013)

Going to stick my toe in here WRT the artifex. I bought the knife for my gf; good profile imo (direct copy of the masamoto vg), but THICK behind the edge for the bulk of the knife. The ~1.5" towards the tip were usable and ground pretty thin, but the rest was something else. It did not cut as well as my old henckels pro-s and frankly, it reminded me of that time I used an old henckels meat cleaver to cut an onion. 

Significantly better knives out there for another $20-25.


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## brainsausage (Sep 18, 2013)

Culverin said:


> So If I fix my edge,
> 
> The Artifex should in theory perform better than my Tojiro DP?



Nope


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## Gravy Power (Sep 18, 2013)

With my skill, I would never underpay for a knife that needs thinning and grinding. I'll happily pay the extra cash for a product that's done right, plus doesn't look like a total piece of ****.


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## brainsausage (Sep 18, 2013)

Gravy Power said:


> With my skill, I would never underpay for a knife that needs thinning and grinding. I'll happily pay the extra cash for a product that's done right, plus doesn't look like a total piece of ****.



There's some old adage about getting what you pay for, or something.. Can't quite recall...


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## Culverin (Sep 18, 2013)

brainsausage said:


> Nope



Why not?


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 18, 2013)

Culverin said:


> Why not?




Apologies is this comes across as harsh, but are you experienced at grinding knives? If the answer is no, you are not going to have the necessary skill to modify the artifex to a good standard. The geometry of the blade is incredibly poor - that is the whole grind, not just the edge bevels.


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 18, 2013)

The Tojiro geometry is markedly superior (because it was made by someone who knew what they were doing) - and that's why it cuts better. It has f-all to do with steel. People getting hung up on steel type and believing steel hype is without doubt the cause of the biggest misinformation problems. Unfortunately people like things they can categorise when evaluating performance - numbers and letters, hence the obsession with steel types, Rockwell hardness etc. 

The skill of the smith/maker is paramount. Unfortunately this cannot be easily categorised or placed on a scale. If a knife has crap geometry, even if it's made from black unobtainium megasteel, it will cut like crap. Period.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 18, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> The Tojiro geometry is markedly superior (because it was made by someone who knew what they were doing) - and that's why it cuts better. It has f-all to do with steel. People getting hung up on steel type and believing steel hype is without doubt the cause of the biggest misinformation problems. Unfortunately people like things they can categorise when evaluating performance - numbers and letters, hence the obsession with steel types, Rockwell hardness etc.
> 
> The skill of the smith/maker is paramount. Unfortunately this cannot be easily categorised or placed on a scale. If a knife has crap geometry, even if it's made from black unobtainium megasteel, it will cut like crap. Period.



:goodpost:

All good steel does is helps a good knifemaker make a better knife overall. A good bladesmith can make a knife that will cut properly and repeatably out of mild steel. The edge won't last, and so will need sharpened constantly...but when it cuts it will cut well. The hair splitting sharpness attainable with good steel (assuming its properly heat treated) is definitely an aid to cutting ability...but that's not what makes the knife cut, and many (if not most) people wouldn't even be able to feel the difference until the mild steel knife started to dull. That's where the quality steel and heat treat really come in. Carbide formation, refinement, and distribution play HUGE roles in making that sharp edge last in any steel with alloying agents...be it carbon or stainless. But all the knowledge of metallurgy in the world, with the ultimate blend of carbon, iron, and alloys...will not make a butter knife cut anything but butter.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 18, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> Apologies is this comes across as harsh, but are you experienced at grinding knives? If the answer is no, you are not going to have the necessary skill to modify the artifex to a good standard. The geometry of the blade is incredibly poor - that is the whole grind, not just the edge bevels.



Who actually makes the Artifex knife? The unnameable is quite obviously a dealer/entrepreneur/enthusiast, rather than a knife makerhe designs, brands, markets, sells the knives, but someone else manufactures [factory] them for him.

Have there been grind/performance issues with the other knife lines, like the Laser, Ultimatum, Addict, Fanatic or Kohetsu.

Just trying to understand knife manufacturing. Example, if I approached a reputable knife manufacturer with an idea for 'The DitmasPork Super Gyuto,' giving them a desired profile and specifications, wouldn't the manufacturer tweak my idea, and make modifications to improve my edge geometry and design based on their knife making expertise?


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 18, 2013)

Mark's Artifect/Ultimatium knives are manufactured by Lamson & Goodnow. His Lasers and AS knives are manufactured in Japan (probably KANESHIGE CUTLERY CO)


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## Baby Huey (Sep 18, 2013)

You know...... I was thinkin.......
For a forum that does not like so and so and what so and so sells, I sure do seem to see a ton of chat about it. 
Any thoughts on whether trolls may be involved in some way shape or form? 
An ongoing thread like this is bound to spark more interest in new players whether it is positive or not. 
Just sayin. 
Seems like advertising for that company is not hard to generate here.
Seeing as there are a fair number of new members coming in on what seems like a daily basis. Some of those might be frugal or just plain hard up on cash. I would think constantly talking about said company would peak some interest enough to check the site out and maybe steer someone that direction by the offerings they may come across while there.
Now I know that is not what most people are aiming for, but that is just what these long debate/bashfests are capable of doing.
When I joined I was curious and asked for a PM for some insight and after that it was over as I did not want to continue talking about things that obviously upset people in the viewing eye of everyone on the forum.
That being said I think (My opinion only) that if people ask about certain things that are better off left unspoken here, that someone take the reigns and maybe inform them privately so as not to encourage these situations.

Look at Charlie Sheen......... Bad publicity is still publicity.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 18, 2013)

CompE said:


> This site has the greatest concentration of knowledge regarding kitchen knives and kitchen knife sharpening on the internet, which is why I look here for reviews and advice. I appreciated the few opinions that were offered. You tried some coarse stones, they aren't as good as others and they are overpriced. That was worth more to me than all the videos and the love-ins at other forums, not because I'm looking for bad reviews of the products, but because I trust the opinions of the people on this site as real experts who gained that expertise through research and trial-and-error, not self proclaimed experts in an echo room.



This is why I think this topic is important - I want this to continue to be the place you're describing, but it takes effort to point out the bull and keep things honest. When I see so many people bash a knife *they've never used*, based on biased reviews from people with an axe to grind, it bothers me. This place can be just as much a fan-boy echo chamber sometimes, when it comes to certain products. 

And btw, does anyone remember this? http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/850519/



Dave_Martell said:


> ... I've decided to only continue to sell the Arashiyama 6k version as this seems the more honest thing to do.
> 
> To be truthful I'm more than a little pissed off about being somewhat duped and thus duping my customers in return. I'm not upset about selling this stone labeled as 8k because I still feel it's a great stone that could easily be an 8k and those who bought the Takenoko version got a great stone. I'm upset with the fact that I sold one of each to some customers meaning that they bought two of the same stones from me and that's just not good.



So by his own admission, Dave apparently doesn't mind "duping" his customers now? - http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Takenoko-sharpening-stone-8000x-8k-p/tak8000.htm

This, combined with the self-serving censorship and hyperbolic negative reviews of anything Mark sells, is why I have lost almost all respect for him. I might get banned for this, but so be it - either way, I think people should know that it's not as cut and dry as Dave=good, Mark=evil. Dave is just the lesser of two evils.


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## Baby Huey (Sep 18, 2013)

You seem to have left out the good part where he tries to make good by offering a refund after admitting his mistake publicly.




spaceconvoy said:


> And on that note....I want everyone to know that if you purchased both stones from us (JKS) then we will take back one of them for a full refund even if the stone has been used. Please contact me if this applies to you and we'll straighten things out.
> 
> Also, while I have your attention, please beware when stone shopping because there's a few vendors who sell both of these stones and one even states the Arashiyama is a 7k. Caveat Emptor!
> 
> ...


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 18, 2013)

Yes, he did good in the past - past-Dave was great and still has my respect. You're missing the point. Today he continues to sell the stone as Takenoko 8000, even though he said selling it as Arashiyama was the honest thing to do. Apparently he doesn't mind now if people are tricked into buying two of the same stones.


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## mhlee (Sep 18, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> This is why I think this topic is important - I want this to continue to be the place you're describing, but it takes effort to point out the bull and keep things honest. When I see so many people bash a knife *they've never used*, based on biased reviews from people with an axe to grind, it bothers me. This place can be just as much a fan-boy echo chamber sometimes, when it comes to certain products.
> 
> And btw, does anyone remember this? http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/850519/
> 
> ...



First, your comparison is stupid. You're cherry picking one thread as an example of one vendor's business practices and applying that to generalize one vendor's business practices as a whole. So, if, just as an example, Jon, Devin, Bill Burke, sell one bad knife, that makes all of them bad vendors? 

Second of all, what's your point about bringing up a thread from the past? Self aggrandizement? Dave doesn't even sell the Arashiyama any more. He only sells the Takenoko. (And your response is pointless. Dave's post notes that they are both made by the same OEM. Arashiyama is not the maker. It's a rebranded stone as well. Many Japanese stones are rebranded. And, on top of that, maybe there's a reason why Dave isn't selling the Arashiyama.) 

For someone who apparently likes bringing back old threads from the grave, you should maybe also look at how many threads deal with members' problems with Mark's customer service. It's not just Mark's products that people here do not like - many people have commented how poor his customer service is, including me. For someone who apparently cares about facts and not "biased reviews," you make illogical comparisons and analogies that are not factually supported beyond one example.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 18, 2013)

Way to completely miss the point as well. He *does* sell the Arashiyama, branded as Takenoko purposely to convince the uninformed that he's selling a unique stone. It's. the. same. stone.

I'm not generalizing his business practices at all. Where do I say anything like that? I'm giving one concrete reason why I personally don't trust Dave's opinion anymore


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## JDA_NC (Sep 18, 2013)

labor of love said:


> the 1k that mark tried to claim was the same stone that maxim carries? i think in a video comparision it was decided that they cut much differently.



I don't know the back story behind Maxim & him with regards to that stone (or the video comparison) - but yes, they look almost exactly alike. 

I know the 'other website' offers the stone in 3 different levels of hardness - medium, hard, & extra hard - but the 'medium' is the default, and the one I own.

I feel the same about the stone as most of the reviewers on JNS, with the exception that mine dishes fairly fast and needs constant flattening. So maybe the one Maxim sells is one of the harder varieties. I actually like the softer feel of mine but I can tell that I am going to burn through it fairly quickly.

I appreciate that this thread is still open - even if it has gone way off topic from its original purpose. I've been lurking long enough to understand why there are the feelings there are here, but I think this website is great. It is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to knives and sharpening so I really appreciate it. I just wish we could fairly acknowledge and review these stones. Like I said before, I understand why people would not want to give them their business at all - but it is an entire range of stones that have almost zero unbiased reviews. All you have are youtube videos and CKTG forum posts.


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## labor of love (Sep 18, 2013)

spaceconvoy, it looks like dave was forthcoming and completely honest about the whole situation. im not sure why exactly you decided not to trust him, and it seems to me like youre on a witch hunt.
you claim to love this site because of the valueable information that can be found here, unfortunately all that youve decided to contribute is mudslinging and all around trolling.


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## Vic Cardenas (Sep 18, 2013)

jaybett said:


> CCK became known, because a knife nut, out of Utah, went into an Asian market and bought one.



Can you point me in the direction of who this user is? I'd like to ask them where. Because I'd like to buy one locally but all of the asian markets I've been to don't sell knives. I'm in SLC.


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## labor of love (Sep 18, 2013)

JDA_NC said:


> . I just wish we could fairly acknowledge and review these stones. Like I said before, I understand why people would not want to give them their business at all - but it is an entire range of stones that have almost zero unbiased reviews. All you have are youtube videos and CKTG forum posts.


get over it. this forum has its own vendors that carry stones, instead of trying to figure out whether or not marks stones are a rip off, you should really just find a better vendor with better stones. shouldnt be that hard.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 18, 2013)

labor of love said:


> spaceconvoy, it looks like dave was forthcoming and completely honest about the whole situation. im not sure why exactly you decided not to trust him, and it seems to me like youre on a witch hunt.
> you claim to love this site because of the valueable information that can be found here, unfortunately all that youve decided to contribute is mudslinging and all around trolling.



It's not that hard to understand, so why does no one seem to get it? Seems like you guys are blinded by loyalty and are just seeing what you want to see. Let me spell it out in chronological order:

- Dave carries the Takenoko
- Dave starts selling the Arashiyama
- In Japan, I find out (from MetalMaster, actually) that they're the same stone
- I tell Dave about this via PM
- Dave tests and confirms they are the same stone
- Dave does the stand-up thing, tells everyone the story, and offers to refund people who bought both
- Dave says "I've decided to only continue to sell the Arashiyama 6k version as this seems the more honest thing to do."
- At some point later, he switches back to selling the Takenoko, without any indication that it's the same stone as the Arashiyama

Michael, this is not the same thing as someone selling one bad knife. It is the same as Mark claiming something that's not true just to make a profit. I'm not saying this is what Dave does all the time. I'm also not defending Mark's shady business practices. This is the extent of my argument, so stop putting words in my mouth.

I generally agree that Mark sells overhyped and overpriced crap to the uninformed consumer, who is fooled into believing they're worth more based on his rock bottom prices for widely respected items... But Dave has used his formerly well-earned reputation to convince the kool-aid drinkers of this forum that he sells unique stones and his competitor's products are worse than they are in reality.

And here's why I think this isn't off topic. We're talking about why we can't discuss a certain brand of stones on this forum. The majority have claimed it's because Mark is evil and they're probably crap stones because he lies all the time. My argument is it's because of a personal grudge between Dave and Mark, and Dave's own lies have poisoned this forum against everything that Mark sells, deservedly or not.


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## labor of love (Sep 18, 2013)

if youre waiting for all the oohs and aahs and gasps you think are about to commence because of your phony bombshell, you really need to grow up alittle. nobody cares if dave rebands a stone or not, all thats important is tht he stands behind his products. rebranding of stones is pretty common anyway.
so how are you not a troll again? this thread is supposed to be about stones mark carries, yet youve seem to found it necessary to bash dave and his business, the reason being he may or may not rebrand stones? your inability to stay on topic leads me to believe your motives here are to sling mud. and for what? how about you get off your pedistal before you lose what little credibility you have left.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 18, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> - At some point later, he switches back to selling the Takenoko, without any indication that it's the same stone as the Arashiyama



It only seems to me that this would be an issue IF he sold both stones to the same person after beginning to offer the other stone again...which personally I don't believe he would do. I have had very little interaction with Dave, and one of those interactions some people would consider negative. The one negative interaction was simply Dave enforcing the rules of the forum...of which I wasn't aware at the time. In all of the other times we've had contact, he's been honest, open, and friendly.

When I owned my racing engine business...we became vendors for two separate brands of high end forged aluminum pistons. When the first order from the second company came in...we saw that they were the SAME pistons, and I verified through BOTH of my reps that the first company (the manufacturer) sold the blanks to the second company, and even lasered their name on them for them. Thing is...the second company gave us an INCREDIBLE price break, and so I did the majority of my business through them. Some customers however REQUIRED the first companies pistons, despite our assurances that they were the same. So in those cases I gave them what they wanted. And yes...on our website, we still offered both. Being able to increase the listed offerings on your store will often bring in more customers who are searching for one particular item, that you may have missed otherwise. When someone ordered a set of the first manufacturers pistons, I ALWAYS followed up (before charging) with an email offering the second piston at the lower price after explaining the situation. 

So my friend, what you're complaining about is pretty much a common sense business practice.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 18, 2013)

labor of love said:


> if youre waiting for all the oohs and aahs and gasps you think are about to commence because of your phony bombshell, you really need to grow up alittle. nobody cares if dave rebands a stone or not, all thats important is tht he stands behind his products. rebranding of stones is pretty common anyway.
> so how are you not a troll again? this thread is supposed to be about stones mark carries, yet youve seem to found it necessary to bash dave and his business, the reason being he may or may not rebrand stones? your inability to stay on topic leads me to believe your motives here are to sling mud. and for what? how about you get off your pedistal before you lose what little credibility you have left.



 I've explained why I think my arguments are on topic. You're the one who is ignoring what I say, putting words in my mouth, and resorting to personal attacks.


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## chinacats (Sep 18, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> I've explained why I think my arguments are on topic. You're the one who is ignoring what I say, putting words in my mouth, and resorting to personal attacks.



I disagree, you are the one resorting to personal attacks. If not, why didn't you just pm Dave and see if he has what you would consider to be a reasonable explanation rather than slamming him behind his back over one stone. Mark has bs'd people over every item he sells and will continue to do so--to try to equate one with the other is less than honest.


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## Paradox (Sep 18, 2013)

chinacats said:


> I disagree, you are the one resorting to personal attacks. If not, why didn't you just pm Dave and see if he has what you would consider to be a reasonable explanation rather than slamming him behind his back over one stone. Mark has bs'd people over every item he sells and will continue to do so--to try to equate one with the other is less than honest.



I'm sure that Dave can chime in if he feels he needs to. Openly making this discussion on his forum is not anything like slamming him behind his back. Dave's a big boy and can speak for himself though. Now compare that to the attacks you make at Mark whenever he is mentioned, THAT is attacking behind the back. At least spaceconvoy is playing in Dave's own sandbox. 

Clearly you guys are missing the fact that the continued Mark bashing at every mention of him and his stuff from the same usual suspects here on KKF is hurting the credibility of KKF as a whole. I'm not even a player in any of this and I get PMs from people on other boards asking about it all. LOL!


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## Frater_Decus (Sep 18, 2013)

Paradox said:


> Clearly you guys are missing the fact that the continued Mark bashing at every mention of him and his stuff from the same usual suspects here on KKF is hurting the credibility of KKF as a whole. I'm not even a player in any of this and I get PMs from people on other boards asking about it all. LOL!



+1!


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## mhlee (Sep 18, 2013)

Uh . . . you've obviously missed how complaints of Mark or his products are criticized by the moderators of other forums (several are Mark's fanboys - see KKF (Antonio Luiz) and Foodie Forums (MadRookie)) and how those threads are modified or deleted. I've personally seen a member on KKF be strong armed into accepting blame for an issue, the title of his thread changed from being critical to praiseworthy of Mark, and critical posts deleted. 

This forum has way more credibility than the other forums. The fact that so many members from other forums come here to learn how to fix Mark's deficient knives says enough about by his forum.


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## mhlee (Sep 18, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> I generally agree that Mark sells overhyped and overpriced crap to the uninformed consumer, who is fooled into believing they're worth more based on his rock bottom prices for widely respected items... But Dave has used his formerly well-earned reputation to convince the kool-aid drinkers of this forum that he sells unique stones and his competitor's products are worse than they are in reality.
> 
> And here's why I think this isn't off topic. We're talking about why we can't discuss a certain brand of stones on this forum. The majority have claimed it's because Mark is evil and they're probably crap stones because he lies all the time. My argument is it's because of a personal grudge between Dave and Mark, and Dave's own lies have poisoned this forum against everything that Mark sells, deservedly or not.



You blaming Dave for this is stupid. I have enough personal experience with Mark to never trust him or buy anything from him ever again and I will openly say as much to anyone who asks me. Dave didn't cause me to feel this way about Mark; Mark did. 

Many other members feel the same way. Do some research. Get a brain.


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 18, 2013)

Frater_Decus said:


> +1!



Excellent early posting.

Why does shyte like this always result in no-marks coming out of the woodwork?


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## labor of love (Sep 18, 2013)

go run and play at the cktg forum already. no one hear is crying over marks hurt feelings.


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## Dave Martell (Sep 18, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> This is why I think this topic is important - I want this to continue to be the place you're describing, but it takes effort to point out the bull and keep things honest. When I see so many people bash a knife *they've never used*, based on biased reviews from people with an axe to grind, it bothers me. This place can be just as much a fan-boy echo chamber sometimes, when it comes to certain products.
> 
> And btw, does anyone remember this? http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/850519/
> 
> ...





spaceconvoy said:


> Yes, he did good in the past - past-Dave was great and still has my respect. You're missing the point. Today he continues to sell the stone as Takenoko 8000, even though he said selling it as Arashiyama was the honest thing to do. Apparently he doesn't mind now if people are tricked into buying two of the same stones.





spaceconvoy said:


> Way to completely miss the point as well. He *does* sell the Arashiyama, branded as Takenoko purposely to convince the uninformed that he's selling a unique stone. It's. the. same. stone.
> 
> I'm not generalizing his business practices at all. Where do I say anything like that? I'm giving one concrete reason why I personally don't trust Dave's opinion anymore





spaceconvoy said:


> It's not that hard to understand, so why does no one seem to get it? Seems like you guys are blinded by loyalty and are just seeing what you want to see. Let me spell it out in chronological order:
> 
> - Dave carries the Takenoko
> - Dave starts selling the Arashiyama
> ...





Wow, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I had overlooked the admission of the two stones being (what I feel are) the same into the product description. I've corrected that....

http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Takenoko-sharpening-stone-8000x-8k-p/tak8000.htm



> From my own testing I believe this stone to be the same as the Arashiyama 6k




As for why I sell the Takenoko vs the Arashiyama....it's simple it's the one that I can get easier and cheaper.

Conway, while I appreciate you bringing this oversight to my attention I would ask in the future that you might send me a Pm or email if something like this comes up again so as I might have a chance to fix the problem as I easily just did prior to you becoming so upset over nothing.


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## mzer (Sep 18, 2013)

Knife Geekery does not need to be a team sport, but this forum, and frankly a good bit of this is from Dave's actions, seems to treat it as such. I really like Maxim and Jon, and they have both supplied me with great knives, great stones and even better information. I've purchased from Mark as well, mainly in the past and without the same level of service, but always happily and with good results. If this forum is actually going to be respectable then it is time to leave the petty b.s. behind and stop talking about Mark Richmond as though he was some bigger than life monster who eats the heads off of puppies. It is lame and most of the members here are better than that.

Oh, fwiw, the Dave stone thing seems like a total non issue, if we are counting hands.


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## Dave Martell (Sep 18, 2013)

For those of you who are wondering why the word ******** (Nuuuuuuuuuuu Buuuuuuuuuuuuu Taaaaaaaaaaaaaa Maaaaaaaaaaaaaa, as Ken says it) has been blocked or why these stones do not get talked about here, well, the word is blocked because of links - not censorship - and the stones aren't talked about because no one has them.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 18, 2013)

mhlee said:


> You blaming Dave for this is stupid. I have enough personal experience with Mark to never trust him or buy anything from him ever again and I will openly say as much to anyone who asks me. Dave didn't cause me to feel this way about Mark; Mark did.
> 
> Many other members feel the same way. Do some research. Get a brain.



I've said it before, several times in this very thread, but apparently I need to say it again... I haven't shopped at CKTG for years, and I feel the same way about Mark as you do! I'm not blaming Dave for Mark's well deserved bad business reputation. I'm blaming Dave for exaggerated negative comments on all of Mark's products, based on a personal grudge rather than an objective review of those products.



Paradox said:


> Clearly you guys are missing the fact that the continued Mark bashing at every mention of him and his stuff from the same usual suspects here on KKF is hurting the credibility of KKF as a whole.



Yes! This is why it bugs me so much. Bash his business practices all you want. Bash the overgrinds and terrible geometry of his knives, assuming you've had first hand experience with them... I have a problem in general with forum members who parrot the common wisdom on products they've never used. Saying "I've heard from Dave that the Artifex's aeb-l is crap" is fine. Saying "the Artifex's aeb-l is crap" without any first hand experience is not. Unfortunately, that's human nature and will probably never change.

The problem is compounded when common wisdom is being driven by someone with an agenda. I don't trust any reviews on Mark's forum, that's a given, but I also don't trust the excessively negative reviews here. That's a credibility problem. And the fact that we can't even discuss certain brands is self-defeating. It guarantees that if a noob searches for ******** on google, they will only see the skewed positive reviews. How is any of this good for the community?


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## JDA_NC (Sep 18, 2013)

labor of love said:


> get over it. this forum has its own vendors that carry stones, instead of trying to figure out whether or not marks stones are a rip off, you should really just find a better vendor with better stones. shouldnt be that hard.



Relax buddy.

I am quite happy with my current stones and have already mentioned my next purchases will mostly like be some Gesshins & possibly Maxim's JNS 800. Does that make you a little less defensive?

I'm a line cook and I make line cook wages in the South. I don't base my purchases (which are part of my livelihood) off group-think or certain website's vendors. I happen to like the vendors for this website quite a bit - mostly because they have helped me become better educated about multiple things - but I have ZERO bias towards them or any other vendor. When I was down in your neck of the woods cooking a few years back, all my fellow cooks told me that CKTG was *the* website for knives. I have bought multiple knives, stones and bags through them - all at an affordable price, with ridiculously quick, free shipping, and everything received safely and in good condition.

I am not a fanboy. I understand completely why Mr. Martell feels the way he does - and stated each time in this thread that I respect it. That he doesn't want to send any sort of business their way makes complete sense to me. Why other people in this community don't want to spend their money there, I get that too. But for me, I have spent hundreds of dollars there and had zero problems - so I will continue to keep an open mind about their products. Simple as.

Edit: Ken Schwartz is obviously a bit of a buffoon. Just listening to him talk for more than 5 minutes or his sales pitch for his 'swordsmith' knives confirms that. And a lot of the CKTG videos are cringeworthy. But that doesn't change that I feel my Nuuubbaaaattaammma 1k stone is a very good stone or that they have a wide and affordably priced selection


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 18, 2013)

Dave Martell said:


> Wow, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I had overlooked the admission of the two stones being (what I feel are) the same into the product description.



Dave, they ARE the same stone. Why can't you admit that straight up?

And I did bring it to your attention discretely via PM years ago. You had the chance to fix the problem, but apparently you never felt the need to tell the truth to consumers.

If this didn't reek of the same evasion and tortured truth bending as the whole JKS/Imanishi 10k debacle, I'd be much more inclined to believe this was an innocent mistake.


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## Dave Martell (Sep 18, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> Dave, they ARE the same stone. Why can't you admit that straight up?
> 
> And I did bring it to your attention discretely via PM years ago. You had the chance to fix the problem, but apparently you never felt the need to tell the truth to consumers.
> 
> If this didn't reek of the same evasion and tortured truth bending as the whole JKS/Imanishi 10k debacle, I'd be much more inclined to believe this was an innocent mistake.





I have never received confirmation from either of my sources of these stones that they are the same so all I can say is that they sure seem to be to me and let people do what they will with this info. I'm sorry that this doesn't work for you.

I'm not supposed to be talking about my products that I sell outside of my forum so I'll have to make this my last reply here.


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## mhlee (Sep 18, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> I've said it before, several times in this very thread, but apparently I need to say it again... I haven't shopped at CKTG for years, and I feel the same way about Mark as you do! I'm not blaming Dave for Mark's well deserved bad business reputation. I'm blaming Dave for exaggerated negative comments on all of Mark's products, based on a personal grudge rather than an objective review of those products.



Are you blaming Dave for causing others to write any "exaggerated negative comments" about Mark's products? 

If you're just talking about Dave's opinion alone, what's wrong with that? Mark openly bashes Dave on his forum. And like Mark or his beggars would ever praise the product of someone else. Have you seen any of Jon's, Dave's knives praised there?

Get back to us when you see a thread praising Dave's or another KKF vendor that doesn't sell through Mark. In the meantime, get a brain.


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## NO ChoP! (Sep 18, 2013)

Although Dave may take great pleasure in others slamming Mark, I feel he has resisted the temptation himself for a good while. Maybe it's true that we learn from our mistakes, and most of us know these posts don't usually end very well. For most, I don't even think the topic matters, it's more the feelings that are conjured. It's like bringing up cheating in a marriage....


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## bahamaroot (Sep 18, 2013)

> Get back to us when you see a thread praising Dave's or another KKF vendor that doesn't sell through Mark. In the meantime, get a brain.


I've seen Gesshin knives, Gesshin stones and David Smiths cutting boards all praised on CKTG's forum.


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## labor of love (Sep 18, 2013)

JDA_NC said:


> Relax buddy.
> 
> I am quite happy with my current stones and have already mentioned my next purchases will mostly like be some Gesshins & possibly Maxim's JNS 800. Does that make you a little less defensive?
> 
> ...


im very relaxed. thanks for asking. it doesnt matter who you are or what your background is. i was giving you advice, not insulting you. just find a vendor you can trust and use him to your advantage.


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## labor of love (Sep 18, 2013)

bahamaroot said:


> I've seen Gesshin knives, Gesshin stones and David Smiths cutting boards all praised on CKTG's forum.



ive seen artifex, ultamatums, and richmond lasers spoken of highly here.


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## mhlee (Sep 19, 2013)

bahamaroot said:


> I've seen Gesshin knives, Gesshin stones and David Smiths cutting boards all praised on CKTG's forum.



Do a search of Gesshin. I just did. There are 5 posts. Praise? Hardly. And no posts about Gesshin knives except for someone who owns one and listed it among the knives he owns.

If they were praised as you put it, those posts aren't there anymore.


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## knyfeknerd (Sep 19, 2013)

Sometimes it burns when I pee.


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## knyfeknerd (Sep 19, 2013)

knyfeknerd said:


> Sometimes it burns when I pee.


Yep 
I'll bet it's Dave Martell's fault.
If KKF didn't suck so bad, my peepees wouldn't hurt.
Screw this place, I'm a gonna go help Kenny out with the KF revival.


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## labor of love (Sep 19, 2013)

kf has awesome BST deals, i still lurk there.


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## brainsausage (Sep 19, 2013)

I'm gonna blame the full moon for all the craziness around here lately. It's tried and true. Maybe tomorrow this place will be back to 'normal'.


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## chinacats (Sep 19, 2013)

Paradox said:


> blah, blah, blah...Now compare that to the attacks you make at Mark whenever he is mentioned, THAT is attacking behind the back...blah, blah, blah...



Just to finalize my position here...I've told Mark directly that he has a lack of scruples as well as a lack of knowledge about knives...so there.




brainsausage said:


> I'm gonna blame the full moon for all the craziness around here lately. It's tried and true. Maybe tomorrow this place will be back to 'normal'.



gotta' love it...and I'm done with my current rant about the lack of quality of Mark's gear and his total ignorance of quality customer care

Cheers


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## Frater_Decus (Sep 19, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> Excellent early posting.
> 
> Why does shyte like this always result in no-marks coming out of the woodwork?



Excellent rude behavior. I've commented in several threads already, including an introductory post of my own, and this was my support of a comment. If you have a problem with someone writing "+1," what are you doing on a forum? There's no need to be inhospitable, especially when I'm not even bring inflammatory. Save the snark for those deserving of it, if you don't mind.


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## tkern (Sep 19, 2013)

This thread is pretty amazing. You have new comers just looking to get started in a community being crapped upon. You have tried and true members be crapped upon because of their experience. There are egos galore being hurt.


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## ecchef (Sep 19, 2013)

[video=youtube;y-vBJ8cS08U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-vBJ8cS08U[/video]


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## Asteger (Sep 19, 2013)

I've casually followed KKF for a while and have noticed that these types of threads come up every month or two, with the same vitriol as a result. I think some of the old-timers forget that new people, even infrequent users, might be involved and basically can exhibit knee-jerk reactions at times as though 'here we go again' and the argument is against the same old foe. I don't know if it's ever been described this way, but I'd say a bit of 'thread rage' then results. Kind of ugly. 

No problems with people having a debate, even an argument. Can't stand some of the rudeness, though. Old-hand or not, aren't there forum rules about stuff like this?



mhlee said:


> ... your comparison is stupid .... You blaming Dave for this is stupid.... Do some research. Get a brain. ... In the meantime, get a brain. (Etc, etc....)


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## RJD55 (Sep 19, 2013)

I'm one of the newcomers to this forum reading this thread, this is actually my first post. I don't know either Dave or Mark and have no interest in getting sucked into the love or hate relationship with either that so many posters on this thread seem to have. I have purchased from CKTG but my real interest is in getting the product I want at a decent value. 

I have purchased an Artifex from CKTG and it was a good value out of the box. It's definitely thick behind the edge and is a serviceable but not high performance knife. I also use a Watanabe and the Artifex grind is inferior, but it's also a lot cheaper at $75 than the Watanabe. However, the Artifex becomes a great value if you are willing to put in a little bit of effort to thin the blade. The AEB-L steel is not difficult to work with and thinning a blade is not a high skill task or that difficult with the right stone set. I will say that I've also thinned an Artifex in M390 steel and that it was a more difficult but still manageable project. If you are willing to put in the effort the Artifex becomes a very good knife with excellent steel at a very low price. If you want to pay more CKTG also offers in house lines with much better grinds at much higher prices, consumer can make their own choice.

I'm not sure I can relate to the fury about Mark's business ethics. The only concrete issue I saw in the thread was that Mark starting carrying product that Dave already carried but at a lower price. It seems to me that the Japanese suppliers have the right to expand their products to more retailers if they want and retailers have the right to include those products in their store. Dave may have done initial research on the product but that just means he gets to be first on the market with them, I don't see how he is entitled to any long term monopoly. Business is not a gentleman's club, this is just business. 

My interest is as a consumer. Right now CKTG has an extensive collection of different knives from a wide range of small Japanese craftsman and large scale manufacturers at a decent price point. Their service has always been excellent for me. That said, in a year or several years another company will come along and offer better value than CKTG and most of the customers, including me, will shift to them. This is the way the competitive free market system works.


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## labor of love (Sep 19, 2013)

Asteger said:


> I've casually followed KKF for a while and have noticed that these types of threads come up every month or two, with the same vitriol as a result. I think some of the old-timers forget that new people, even infrequent users, might be involved and basically can exhibit knee-jerk reactions at times as though 'here we go again' and the argument is against the same old foe. I don't know if it's ever been described this way, but I'd say a bit of 'thread rage' then results. Kind of ugly.
> 
> No problems with people having a debate, even an argument. Can't stand some of the rudeness, though. Old-hand or not, aren't there forum rules about stuff like this?



but really there were several people looking to cause disturbances as far back as page 3. every action has a reaction.


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## Baby Huey (Sep 19, 2013)

No offense RJD55, but as another new member here I would have to say as your first post seems very suspect. Pardon me for jumping to conclusions, but coming in out of the blue as your first post and going into that much depth to explain and somewhat protect/advertise for said company seems to be a little farfetched if you ask me. Seems like you are pushing CKTG. Now though I only heard about this problem recently, it is not my battle but if you really created an account just to come push the products and troll this thread then that is just wrong. 

Again if I am mistaken I apologize, but I doubt that I am.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 19, 2013)

Dam Huey, You're on a roll today. How many more rounds are you going to fire today? I'm half kidding but In the post above I think you're being a little too protective and a tad bit parnoid. 

remember we're in America where you're susposed to be innocent before proven guilty. And even when you're guilty, everyone deserves a second chance. Dave will usually give a third and fourth until he blows, and when he does, he usually comes across as sharp as his knives. 

Many on this site are justified in their contempt for CKTG, "it is what it is."


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## RJD55 (Sep 19, 2013)

Baby Huey - Disagreement is not trolling and there is nothing suspect about my post. I have no connection with Mark and CKTG except as an occasional customer. The total extend of my direct communication with Mark is a couple of email questions on availability of product. I'm not a supplier or employee and I don't do reviews for them, and I've never given a comment on any of their product pages. I am a user of some of his products (primarily the Artifex and some of the sharpening items) and I fail to see how a different viewpoint from the overboard bashing is somehow "just wrong". Let me repeat this again, I'm an actual user not just an "internet expert" that doesn't have any experience with the product.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 19, 2013)

RJ. Some of us would like to welcome you to KKF. Some of the guys on this forum can be a little cantankerous at times but for most of the folks with a decent # of posts, you'll find honest feedback and lots of wisdom. I'm a little tired of this KKF CKTG hatfield and McCoy fued too, thus my reference to popcorn in one of my earlier post. 

BTW, Huey's not a bad guy at all, he's just put his underwear on backwards today


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## Baby Huey (Sep 19, 2013)

If I was wrong I apologize. I am mot a long time customer of either place. Guess just seeing the reactions it brings up in fellow members kinda gets to me. Along with a rough day at work. No offense intended though I think that saying that was pointless attached to what I said. 

Welcome to KKF.


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## RJD55 (Sep 19, 2013)

Thank you for the welcome, I look forward to learning more about and from the community. Hopefully on less of a hot button issue. As an explanation I'm part of an older generation and while I recognize the "volatile " nature of internet forums I still have a hard time adjusting.


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## Justin0505 (Sep 19, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> Really? I think it's an apt comparison, given the limitations of the knife world. Your 2nd to last paragraph is a good description of both, although I wouldn't say 'prey,' because poor and ignorant people genuinely WANT what they're both selling... As to how clueless I am, all I can say is
> 
> Do you remember when Mark first joined the boards? I remember him as seeming to be a decent guy, had his own small retail operation, and seemed to be genuinely interested in the how and the why of steel, sharpening, etc. I don't believe Mark started with deceit in his heart, like he wanted to use our collective knowledge to further his career... Maybe he was a con artist from the beginning and maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to believe that he was a genuine enthusiast who happened to be in a position to make a profit, and so he did. If anyone's to blame, I'd point my finger at the consumer, who has continued to reward him for questionable behavior.





spaceconvoy said:


> And how is this exactly? I've read this before, but no one can seem to explain the physics behind it. Does heat treating with fewer knives make you inherently more in control of the temperature? Is DT manipulating the temperature during the process based on some sort of spidey sense? Seems like some kool-aid drinking bull to me





RJD55 said:


> I'm one of the newcomers to this forum reading this thread, this is actually my first post. I don't know either Dave or Mark and have no interest in getting sucked into the love or hate relationship with either that so many posters on this thread seem to have. I have purchased from CKTG but my real interest is in getting the product I want at a decent value.
> 
> I have purchased an Artifex from CKTG and it was a good value out of the box. It's definitely thick behind the edge and is a serviceable but not high performance knife. I also use a Watanabe and the Artifex grind is inferior, but it's also a lot cheaper at $75 than the Watanabe. However, the Artifex becomes a great value if you are willing to put in a little bit of effort to thin the blade. The AEB-L steel is not difficult to work with and thinning a blade is not a high skill task or that difficult with the right stone set. I will say that I've also thinned an Artifex in M390 steel and that it was a more difficult but still manageable project. If you are willing to put in the effort the Artifex becomes a very good knife with excellent steel at a very low price. If you want to pay more CKTG also offers in house lines with much better grinds at much higher prices, consumer can make their own choice.
> 
> ...



Welcome! I don't think that anything that you've said is wrong, but just that you're missing a few things. Mark being a capitalist and selling an identical product that was popularized by someone else for less or even seeking to get exclusive rights to sell those products is a bit of a dick move, but not what causes people to get the pitch-forks and torches.
What really gets people in a burning kinda mood is Mark selling sub-par products and calling them premium. (like selling a stone that's NOT the JNS 1k as the JNS 1k). I think that some people would even tolerate that to some extent, because that's what we've come to expect from "bargain" deals in the US. However, I think that the final hard-line for most people is when Mark and his side-Ken attempt to manipulate and suppress the negative feedback while simultaneously seeding more bogus praise via shills and pet forum trolls. It's this attempt to invade or corrupt a community that many of us are very passionate about that creates a guttural and vicious response. 

Also, this is a largely virtual community and industry that's based on trust and reputation far more than the general consumer market where customers take their trusted vendors "at their word" as well as on the voucher of the community. The standards are much higher here and any sign of poor quality product or anything other than complete honesty and impeccable, ridiculously good customer service can be a kiss of death. 

All this talk of CKTG made me go back and check it out just to see what other new developments there might be and I came across a new line of Richmond knives named after the wavy line created by differentially HT'ing high carbon knives using clay and water.... and they're even supposedly made from blue #1 steel!
Normally the mizu-honyaki's that exhibit this are in the $1000+ price range, and those in blue #1 are pretty rare as it's a difficult steel to work, but this line starts at like 1/10th that price... hmmmm....
then I looked at the pictures and read a bit more carefully: "san mai" with a "real forged hamon" huh? :scratchhead:......LOL.
If this isn't a line designed to sucker people with some, but not enough knowledge, who are shopping based on specs, buzzwords, and price, then I don't know what is...

reminds me of this:
http://mashable.com/2012/02/27/china-istove-seize/

and this: 
http://thechive.com/2013/08/28/chine...iar-28-photos/


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## RJD55 (Sep 19, 2013)

Justin - I have to agree that differential HT and san mai don't seem consistent.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 19, 2013)

RJD55 said:


> Justin - I have to agree that differential HT and san mai don't seem consistent.



That's because they're not even within 100 miles of being the same thing. Traditional Japanese swords were often of san mai construction (there were a few reasons for this, none of which are really relevant here), and were also differentially heat treated with a coating of clay. They were also folded many times. All of these processes were performed for a specific purpose, only one of which has any minor value for the end user beyond aesthetics in the modern kitchen knife (and that's only if the cladding is stainless). Today, these methods (when applied to our modern steels, using modern metallurgically derived heat treat practices) produce nothing more than an aesthetically pleasing blade, and basically are there only to showcase the skill of the craftsman making them. Now...while this may still make them desirable...using the words that have come to define these processes to sell knives that weren't made using the methods described, shows either a complete lack of morals, or a complete lack of knowledge regarding the items you're selling.

Take your pick, but either way I wouldn't buy Kleenex from the guy...based on the rather high likelihood that I'd be shipped box of packing paper.


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## brianh (Sep 19, 2013)

What about the brands of knives he carries that are from other, well-known makers? Is there any reason to believe those are of dubious origin or quality? I've never purchased knives from him FWIW, only diamond spray once.


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## Justin0505 (Sep 19, 2013)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> That's because they're not even within 100 miles of being the same thing. Traditional Japanese swords were often of san mai construction (there were a few reasons for this, none of which are really relevant here), and were also differentially heat treated with a coating of clay. They were also folded many times. All of these processes were performed for a specific purpose, only one of which has any minor value for the end user beyond aesthetics in the modern kitchen knife (and that's only if the cladding is stainless). Today, these methods (when applied to our modern steels, using modern metallurgically derived heat treat practices) produce nothing more than an aesthetically pleasing blade, and basically are there only to showcase the skill of the craftsman making them. Now...while this may still make them desirable...using the words that have come to define these processes to sell knives that weren't made using the methods described, shows either a complete lack of morals, or a complete lack of knowledge regarding the items you're selling.
> 
> Take your pick, but either way I wouldn't buy Kleenex from the guy...based on the rather high likelihood that I'd be shipped box of packing paper.



Yeah... and did you actually look at the pictures of the things? LOL, the "hamon" (which I'm guessing is just the cladding) is almost all the way down to the cutting edge. If that was actually the line where the hard and soft steel met in a mono-steel knife then the knife would have a very short life before you sharpened up into the soft steel. To anyone that actually knows what a good mizu-honyaki looks like, this is pretty laughably bad. 

As for differential heat treat and clad blades, I don't think that the two are not completely mutually exclusive. AFAIK the really dramatic effect that Bill Burke is famous for in his "Hon warikomi" style comes from some pretty special HT.... but then again those are multi-thousand dollar customs from one of the greatest kitchen knife makers in the world... not a hundred buck special made by a mysterious "3rd generation bladesmith" to Mark's spec... 

I might trust that something sold by him as Kleenex to actually be Kleenex, but something sold as "Richmond super ultra premium deluxe extra soft and strong face-tissues made from green materials" I'd suspect might just be worn out sheets of sandpaper... with holes in it.



brianh said:


> What about the brands of knives he carries that are from other, well-known makers? Is there any reason to believe those are of dubious origin or quality? I've never purchased knives from him FWIW, only diamond spray once.



The simple answer is NO. For the most part, if he's selling something like a Takeda, a Kikuichi, Shun, Victorinox, etc it's going to be the same as anywhere else, but maybe a few bucks cheaper. But where that get's a bit misleading is when the popular version sold on another site is actually made to that other site's spec.
For example the Gesshin knives that Jon sells are all made to Jon's specs and pass his QA, so even if CKTG where to sell a knife by the one of the same makers like Heji, it would not be the same knife. This has already happened with the Kato. The version of the knife popularized and sold by Maxim / JNS are custom for that vendor and not the same as what CKTG sells.


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## Ruso (Sep 19, 2013)

When I joined this forum I could not imagine how much drama can it generate:-/ It reminds me of Bill Gates vs Hobbyists at Homebrew Computer Club story of the 70th.


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## Asteger (Sep 20, 2013)

Maybe discussions of re-handles, grinds, and stones only go so far before people crave some action!


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## maxim (Sep 20, 2013)

I think many of you miss the point here. And maybe forgot what happened

It is not becoase some sell product cheaper then us we are disappointed.

it is because deliberately name the product same names and hide it behind Meta data so in search results they come up first, even if product is not same ! 
Also clamming on forums that they are totally same and they sell them cheaper then his competitors. 

I have to defend Dave a bit too, i remember what happened and how it happened maybe many of you forgot but it is maybe good reminder for all of us !

On KF there was some vendors that posted they links in EVERY EVERY new thread that was made by new member with they products ! Then when it was banned to do that he payed people to do it for him !
After Dave made a list of stone that he recommended First and best what he knew, the vendor made that SET of stones cheaper and called it also same name SET as Dave.

So it is not because he started to sell same stones cheaper, it is because he took the knowledge and research Dave did and just copy it. When he and Dave was very good Friends !!
And there is much more behind the scenes that you also dont know about 

Can you imagine Some of our vendors here will start to act same way !!! Do you really want that here ????
In every new thread i will start post my links of my knives and stones and say they have to buy from me because i am cheaper


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## RJD55 (Sep 20, 2013)

Guys, what I've learned about the Richmond Hamon knife from your posts is that you can have a differential heat treat with a hamon and san mai. I've also learned that you don't seem to own or have any direct knowledge of the knife. The best of the internet is knowledgeable people sharing what they know and I think you have some real knowledge to offer, but when you just go on a hate rant none of that knowledge comes into play.


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## RJD55 (Sep 20, 2013)

Maxim - I understand that you consider Mark's business practices to be cutthroat and to have crossed the line. It's clear that you consider him to have betrayed a friendship.But it's also clear that Dave and others like yourself have used their position with this forum to foster a hate filled lynch mob mentality against a competitor. There isn't any high moral ground evident anywhere.


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 20, 2013)

To a knowledgeable observer, those Hamon knives were created to mimic (expensive) Mizu-Honyaki blades - and, as pointed out in post #132, will be attractive to those who have done some rudimentary research and are led by buzzwords and steel hype.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 20, 2013)

RJD55 said:


> Maxim - I understand that you consider Mark's business practices to be cutthroat and to have crossed the line. It's clear that you consider him to have betrayed a friendship.But it's also clear that Dave and others like yourself have used their position with this forum to foster a hate filled lynch mob mentality against a competitor. There isn't any high moral ground evident anywhere.



This is almost insulting in a way. I have my own free will. I have my own ability to look at things objectively. I have the ability to look at two sides of a story, and make my own choice based on my own morality. I don't know, or care about what the past history is between the members of this forum and Mark. All I know is what I've seen, and what I almost experienced myself first hand. THANKFULLY I did find this forum, and the good information presented here. Funny thing is, if it hadn't been for the pictures and video examples posted here...I might have believed the hype anyway. EVERYWHERE you go the Kool-Aid on the CKTG products is force fed, except here. Here, in its place is...what? A few vendors politely advertising their own wares in their own subforums? I'll take some ranting about the past (which to be honest seems to be 99% accurate...odd huh?), with honest answers and product descriptions over flat out lies and marketing hype any day.

How does that measure out on your set of 'moral ground scales'?

Understand also here, I'm not trying to be rude, but your defense of Mark and his products are honestly pretty sketchy. High moral ground? Assuming we as individual members of a forum don't have the ability to judge for ourselves in a clear minded fashion? Turning the issue back on the vendors in this forum...when NONE of the obviously ridiculous sales tactics used by 'the competitor' are used here?

Sketchy at best my friend.


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## bahamaroot (Sep 20, 2013)

Cris you like to bash Mark and his forum but you don't mind using his forum for your personal gain, seems a little two faced. Do you post your opinions over there?


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 20, 2013)

bahamaroot said:


> Cris you like to bash Mark but you don't mind using his forum for your personal gain, seems a little to faced.



When was my last post on that forum? I joined there prior to joining this forum, and since I've learned the things I've learned, haven't posted since.

Aside from that...if you want to speak of 'gain' lol...you're talking to the wrong guy. I don't make money on these knives. The 210 gyuto I'm making right now is down to about $3/hr after materials, and still has a good bit of work left in polishing and handle finishing. I make them because I love making them, not for 'gain'.

...and to be honest, even if I DO post my knives on that forum (which I haven't since my suji...and have been debating how to proceed since)...its to share my work, not to support Mark or his business practices.

-ETA ~ Where did I bash his forum? The Kool-Aid I was speaking of is on a number of forums, not just his.


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## bahamaroot (Sep 20, 2013)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> When was my last post on that forum? I joined there prior to joining this forum, and since I've learned the things I've learned, haven't posted since...


You joined here in June and there in Aug and you visited that forum today. Your last post was Aug 29. Doesn't quite fit with what you just posted.


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## ar11 (Sep 20, 2013)

I really think this thread should be a sticky. So everytime C K T G pops up every 2 months people don't freak out and noobies get confused. In all honestly this thread cleared up a lot things for me.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 20, 2013)

bahamaroot said:


> You joined here in June and there in Aug and you visited that forum today. Your last post was the end of Aug 29. Doesn't quite fit with what you just posted.



I just logged in to that forum to see when I posted last, you're 100% correct. Prior to that my last post was the 29th, as you said.

I joined here in June the FIRST time. I was banned within 10 minutes of making my first post for breaking the rules (which at the time I wasn't aware of). I then spent two months trying to contact Dave regarding my ban without success. I then found and joined CKTG (which in my introductory post I asked that if my post was out of line or against the rules...please don't ban me, due to my experience here), on the suggestion of some of the people I know outside of this forum. The day I joined I was in contact with Myron of Dream Burls to purchase a piece of Stefan's wood. He suggested I post pictures of the finished knife here, I told him I couldn't due to being banned. He talked to Dave, we worked out the issue, and I was allowed back on here. At that point I began to really learn about the things Mark does...and how they almost affected myself and the knives I make, along with how they've affected many others.

So yes...the story does match up.

Look...I pride myself on honesty and integrity, and don't mind being questioned regarding my actions. I don't hold any hard feelings towards you for questioning those things either. But if you have any doubts, talk to Dave, or even Myron. The facts are the facts.


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## bahamaroot (Sep 20, 2013)

Cris I have no problem with you or care if you have dealings with Mark or his forum, I'm sure your a good guy. To be honest I find this whole Mark/Dave thing comical. I wasn't around when all this happened. I have bought things from Mark and from venders from this forum. I have gotten great service and products from them all. Most of the small business owners I have met in the past will smile and shake your hand and then stab you in the back as soon as you turn around. Just a fact of life. As long as I get good service for my dollar I'm happy. I think there is a lot more of playing both sides of the fence by a lot of members that would hate to admit it. I apologize for calling you out, really.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 20, 2013)

bahamaroot said:


> Cris I have no problem with you or care if you have dealings with Mark or his forum, I'm sure your a good guy. To be honest I find this whole Mark/Dave thing comical. I wasn't around when all this happened. I have bought things from Mark and from venders from this forum. I have gotten great service and products from them all. Most of the small business owners I have met in the past will smile and shake your hand and then stab you in the back as soon as you turn around. Just a fact of life. As long as I get good service for my dollar I'm happy. I think there is a lot more of playing both sides of the fence by a lot of members that would hate to admit it. Sorry for calling you out, really.



I can absolutely appreciate that, and no need for an apology. As I've said earlier in this thread...I don't know Dave very well, we haven't interacted much. I don't know Maxim or the other vendors pretty much at all. But from all I've seen the differences are pretty clear.

That's not to say that Mark is the devil on earth and every transaction with him is endangering your soul. I don't even go out of my way to damn the guy. But when points come up that touch on my experiences, I speak up. Add to that when RJD55 came on, defending Mark's behavior and accusing others here of the same behavior, again...I had to speak up.

I also know that a lot of the members here are members there. I don't read around there enough to know about whether they're playing both sides or not...but I can see how it might appear that way.


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## labor of love (Sep 21, 2013)

im a member at the cktg forum. however, i never go there and stir up drama(hint hint).


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## bahamaroot (Sep 21, 2013)

Just here.


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## labor of love (Sep 21, 2013)

bahamaroot said:


> Just here.


not at all.


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## mr drinky (Sep 21, 2013)

knyfeknerd said:


> Sometimes it burns when I pee.



That's it. I've been gone for a while and I miss an ol' fashioned post-KF catharsis. Man, I need (or don't need) to poke my head in more.

Here's my input: 

Spaceconvoy, I do remember that thread about the takenoko and arahiyama and I think I just looked it up within the last few months when I forgot what grit the stone was. Yes, I forgot. I bought the takenoko...or was it the arashiyama...anyhow I like the stone FWIW. That post is great institutional knowledge for those that have those stones, and I am one of them.

I also remember Mark when he was getting into things on KF and remember that he used to have excellent customer service when he was small -- now he is bigger. Other businesses are also going in that direction. There may even be a day when Jon Broida doesn't wrap his knives likes gifts, have his wife Sara write personal letters to you, and respond to your drunken PMs in the late hours. I think I will cut him some slack when his service 'slides' -- he is simply one of the best. 

Business practices aside, Mark's business has grown and changed, but he also sells knives from many respected knife makers on this site. I always try to keep that in mind when saying anything good or bad about this company. In the end, I usually choose silence and reflect on this one point: Mark's last business was selling futon couches.

k.


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## chinacats (Sep 21, 2013)

mr drinky said:


> Business practices aside, Mark's business has grown and changed, but he also sells knives from many respected knife makers on this site. I always try to keep that in mind when saying anything good or bad about this company. In the end, I usually choose silence and reflect on this one point: Mark's last business was selling futon couches.
> 
> k.




:lol2:
Drinky, I miss your insight! Wine forum? This place is full of wino's, you should hang out more.


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## Admin (Sep 21, 2013)

I'm closing this thread. I've let it go on, everyone has had their say, and I've heard it all.

At this time there will be no change in our policy. There's a deep seeded history here that goes beyond the typical forum feud, and as I said when I spoke to many of you on the phone, this policy is not changing.


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