# Kkf just a place for knife sale profit?



## chinacats (Aug 1, 2019)

Just curious what others think...I'm rather bothered by bst becoming a place for people seemingly just trying to earn a second income...community aspect is toast...imo reselling unused knives (often multiple) is for commercial entities not hobbyists...these sales should be moved to Ebay...seems the paying vendors here should be the ones making money...i see individuals making a couple hundred percent profit on some sales while paying vendors make what? (sorry, that's what minus expenses including kkf vendor fees) wonder how that sits with those guys? Members have no business overhead and this not only seems unfair but imo pointless for those vendors to remain since they can't compete fairly.

Cheers


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## Elliot (Aug 1, 2019)

I have my issues with some of the sellers on BST for sure. I do think some pricing is a bit cut throat and there are people I wouldn't buy from if they were selling at a fair price simply because of my own biases toward their practices.
However, I still find value in BST from LOTS of other people and have acquired some great knives from some nice people at very fair prices. 
I think the flippers are the minority. An annoying minority? Sure. But not enough to stop looking.


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## Andrew (Aug 1, 2019)

I'm more or less in alignment with Elliot, though agree that at the higher end of the knife spectrum there are some folks behaving in ways I don't personally respect.

Not to drag any specific post in BST, but I've started to wonder if GLWS means something more like "good luck swindling someone"


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## Carl Kotte (Aug 1, 2019)

I don’t know, but if @chinacats is right I think it is a bit sad (and then the point is well taken). I have been around here for such a short time that I’m unqualified to judge, one way or the other. But to answer the OP question ’Is KKF only a...’ in the affirmative seems inaccurate. It is not only a place for making extra money on knives (which is of course consistent with the fact that it may be for some).


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## bkultra (Aug 1, 2019)

GLWS


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## chinacats (Aug 1, 2019)

bkultra said:


> GLWS



LOL


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## HRC_64 (Aug 1, 2019)

This is always gonna be a tricky conversation.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 1, 2019)

"Kkf just a place for knife sale profit?"

Click baity title 

No... Please refer to Betteridge's law of headlines. 

I joined for the community discussion (after a long time lurking) in the hope of learning a little more. And I did! I have only had one really great experience on B/S/T - but it wasnt even 'on the radar' when I joined.

I take your point though. Many sales look like trade in an imperfect market rather than enjoying a hobby with a community of like minded folk... but c'est la vie - thats increasingly the world we live in.


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## F-Flash (Aug 1, 2019)

GLWS for flippers


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## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Just curious what others think...I'm rather bothered by bst becoming a place for people seemingly just trying to earn a second income...community aspect is toast...imo reselling unused knives (often multiple) is for commercial entities not hobbyists...these sales should be moved to Ebay...seems the paying vendors here should be the ones making money...i see individuals making a couple hundred percent profit on some sales while paying vendors make what? (sorry, that's what minus expenses including kkf vendor fees) wonder how that sits with those guys? Members have no business overhead and this not only seems unfair but imo pointless for those vendors to remain since they can't compete fairly.
> 
> Cheers



Capitalism at work. Free market. Buyer and seller agree upon price, transaction made, both are satisfied. Valuation is very subjective, a buyer will purchase something at the price that it's worth to them—if someone splurges $1.6k on a bloody Kato chicken knife, then good on them and the seller—despite the collective KKF cringe. It's their business, no one else's.

Capitalism is not utopia, BST is far from it, just a marketplace. Fair price vs fair market value don't always match up. I paid about $500 for a new Kato WH, and will likely sell it for more than I paid, if I sell it. By contrast, I paid $120 for a new Kikuichi suji, and would be happy to take $60 for it. My like new 10.5 inch Wustof, which I think I paid $150, I'd gladly give it away to someone I liked.

If a knife is being sold at an inflated price, by someone who'e perceived as a flipper or one who is making a secondary income from selling—then buyer's who have issue should just not make a purchase. Simple.

I know sellers who catch and release at a loss, and those that have a 'pay it forward' attitude just to see the knife enjoyed by another, as well as those who hope to make a good profit—from a buyer's perspective, it's just a product with a price slapped on, whether or not to buy is motivated by need, desire, peer pressure, hype or whatever.

Full disclosure, I've never tried to sell a knife on BST. The knives that I bought on BST were at fair prices, bought from people I trust, under retail—it's like buying anything else, just use your judgement. If there's something fishy about a knife listed as "BNIB" or "flawless," KKF members will often chime in to point out the mis-information or at worse the deception. For buyer and seller, every knife has it's price.

Last thing I'd like to see on BST, are rules imposed by mods dictating valuation or selling intentions.

Regarding vendors—BST is not their place. They have their own platforms from which to sell. The majority of my knives are from vendors.


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## daveb (Aug 1, 2019)

Some valid points in here and the subject comes up regularly. From the cheap seats it appears that 90% of bst is simply one member moving one knife along to another member, usually at an attractive price. 

The other 10%? Yes it's abused. But it's not flipped until someone buys it.

@ CC, How's fishing


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## chinacats (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Capitalism at work. Free market. Buyer and seller agree upon price, transaction made, both are satisfied. Valuation is very subjective, a buyer will purchase something at the price that it's worth to them—if someone splurges $1.6k on a bloody Kato chicken knife, then good on them and the seller—despite the collective KKF cringe. It's their business, no one else's.
> 
> Capitalism is not utopia. Fair price vs fair market value don't always match up. I paid about $500 for a new Kato WH, and will likely sell it for more than I paid, if I sell it. By contrast, I paid $120 for a new Kikuichi suji, and would be happy to take $60 for it. My like new 10.5 inch Wustof, which I think I paid $150, I'd gladly give it away to someone I liked.
> 
> ...



I disagree...capitalism is jki in a legitimate business. These people are using an unfair advantage. They pay no taxes on their profits, no vendor fees, no business overhead...just profit due to greed... must be nice to compete in a market where you play by different rules than those you're 'competing against'...make that no rules.


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## chinacats (Aug 1, 2019)

daveb said:


> Some valid points in here and the subject comes up regularly. From the cheap seats it appears that 90% of bst is simply one member moving one knife along to another member, usually at an attractive price.
> 
> The other 10%? Yes it's abused. But it's not flipped until someone buys it.
> 
> @ CC, How's fishing



Fishing has been good locally (my understanding)...vision still ass... been scared of my dbs and not even tried the sb (depth perception issues). I actually got a lot out of just checking them out and plan on picking up a cheap Wat. I'll return soon


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## chinacats (Aug 1, 2019)

I believe that in the spirit of capitalism that maxim should start auctionning (sp?) off any future katos or shigs...fair market value and all that...


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## GeneH (Aug 1, 2019)

I just learned what GLWS means...


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## Matus (Aug 1, 2019)

Thank you for starting this thread. I strongly dislike the flipping attitude of some members. 

Let’s just mention the Kato triplet. Those knives are offered at about double what they were bought for - and most likely via HK or some other tax free zone. 

I personally would not mind to - based on my personal perception and mood - boot a flipper here and there  but that may not sit well with many other members.

However DaveB made a very, very valid point. It takes two to flip and buyers are as responsible for the flipping as are sellers.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I disagree...capitalism is jki in a legitimate business. These people are using an unfair advantage. They pay no taxes on their profits, no vendor fees, no business overhead...just profit due to greed... must be nice to compete in a market where you play by different rules than those you're 'competing against'...make that no rules.



You're missing the whole point I made regarding vendors. Businesses like JKI, CKTG, K&S, JNS all have their own platforms from which to conduct commerce. BST is a place for people (collectors, cooks, etc.) to off-load used knives—even knives listed as BNIB are used, it's like cars, the moment it leaves the lot, it's used.

It would be absolutely horrible if vendors would be allowed to sell on BST, awful idea! Think of cause and effect—businesses with the most resources would dominate BST, you'd have Sur la Table and Cutlery and More posting their products.

As for taxes, many sellers on KKF does have a legal responsibility of reporting profits to the IRS—same as if selling through eBay, Craig's List, etc. The law is a little tricky, but if it's used and selling for less than what was paid for it when new, then you'd likely not need to report it. For those selling "BNIB" knives, or selling for more than what was paid, then technically you're on the hook to pay taxes. It's the same with individuals selling art, collectables, antiques—for instance all the Katos on BST are considered Taxable Income by the IRS, and likely whichever state the seller is in.

And yeah, as a small business owner—taxes, rent, insurance, inventory costs just comes with the territory. Competition from individuals selling a similar product, not an issue, drop in the bucket.



Matus said:


> I personally would not mind to - based on my personal perception and mood - boot a flipper here and there  but that may not sit well with many other members.



If you boot these so called "flippers," you'd boot most if not all of the sellers. Defining "flipper" becomes murky at best.


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## GorillaGrunt (Aug 1, 2019)

Part of the issue is that there are really two markets: the users, whether pro or home, and the collectors, without any clear distinction between the two or definition of either, and plenty of crossover both with respect to the people and with respect to the knives.


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## JBroida (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> You're missing the whole point I made regarding vendors. Businesses like JKI, CKTG, K&S, JNS all have their own platforms from which to conduct commerce. BST is a place for people (collectors, cooks, etc.) to off-load used knives—even knives listed as BNIB are used, it's like cars, the moment it leaves the lot, it's used.
> 
> It would be absolutely horrible if vendors would be allowed to sell on BST, awful idea! Think of cause and effect—businesses with the most resources would dominate BST, you'd have Sur la Table and Cutlery and More posting their products.
> 
> ...



I think you’d be surprised by the impact and volume of private sales


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## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

JBroida said:


> I think you’d be surprised by the impact and volume of private sales



Good to hear your perspective—I know little of the knife selling business! With my business, the internet is both curse and blessing—we're always trying to modify our business model.


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## Wdestate (Aug 1, 2019)

I just want to know how disappointed people are when they receive a Kato or Shig for 1000+ dollars just to realize it’s no better then like 80% of the knives offered at half the price (or less)


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## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

JBroida said:


> I think you’d be surprised by the impact and volume of private sales



I guess one of the difference between your business and my business is that the people making what I sell are locked down to exclusive contracts, not allowing them to sell independently or through a vendor in an agreed upon region. I also don't deal in as large a volume as you probably do.


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## McMan (Aug 1, 2019)

Wdestate said:


> I just want to know how disappointed people are when they receive a Kato or Shig for 1000+ dollars just to realize it’s no better then like 80% of the knives offered at half the price (or less)



They’d have to use it first to come to that conclusion...


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## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

Wdestate said:


> I just want to know how disappointed people are when they receive a Kato or Shig for 1000+ dollars just to realize it’s no better then like 80% of the knives offered at half the price (or less)



If the collector is passionate about Katos or Shigs, I'm sure they're delighted to possess it at whatever cost. Supply and demand.


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## AT5760 (Aug 1, 2019)

I haven't used BST, so my perspective is just that of an observer. There are several people here that seem to be moving knives all of the time. I don't perceive them as flippers - to me it looks like they enjoy trying out lots of knives and are moving along those that don't fit their style. That seems to be totally in line with this forum's spirit (to the extent that an internet forum can have a soul), and those people often share their enthusiasm for the knife and provide a mini-review. Educational and hopefully puts knives in the hands of people that will use them. As for "flippers," I don't know enough about the markets to know if someone is "flipping" or not. BUT, if people are scooping up desirable knives from vendors without using them, merely to turn a quick buck, that seems to really go against the spirit of this forum. To me, that seems akin to ticket scalping.


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## JBroida (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Good to hear your perspective—I know little of the knife selling business! With my business, the internet is both curse and blessing—we're always trying to modify our business model.



Yeah... I think that’s a healthy and accurate view that closely mirrors my own


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## maxim (Aug 1, 2019)

yep yep


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## milkbaby (Aug 1, 2019)

It's a matter of perception IMHO. Although I do not buy knives anymore, almost all the ones I see on BST that I personally find desirable are being sold at a loss, and sometimes a considerable loss at that.

Or maybe it's because I don't really care about Katos with the kanji chiseled like a 5 year old?


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## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> It's a matter of perception IMHO. Although I do not buy knives anymore, almost all the ones I see on BST that I personally find desirable are being sold at a loss, and sometimes a considerable loss at that.
> 
> Or maybe it's because I don't really care about Katos with the kanji chiseled like a 5 year old?



Look up prices for Fujiyamas, Katos, Shigs. Though true that knives that aren't rare, made by revered makers with low-production output, still available, often sell for a loss, no one would buy them otherwise.


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## Jville (Aug 1, 2019)

Why cant there be a flipper ALERT thread?


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## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

Jville said:


> Why cant there be a flipper ALERT thread?



Problem is how to define a "flipper." Many sellers on KKF can be considered "flippers." I "flipper" is just another name for a seller.


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## daveb (Aug 1, 2019)

Ummmmm, cause you haven't started it.........?

Of course you would have to volunteer to moderate it, fact check prices paid vs prices for sale, , mediate any disputed "facts", establish mark up thresholds not to be exceeded, substantiate all accusations and calculate future value of said knife. If you're in I'll pitch it to Angie

In all seriousness there have been flipper alerts in the past on a case by case basis. Most have had positive outcomes.


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## McMan (Aug 1, 2019)

Jville said:


> Why cant there be a flipper ALERT thread?


I think there is now... F-Flash just re-purposed "GLWS".


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## McMan (Aug 1, 2019)

I think there are two BSTs really—
(1) the BST of people who contribute actively, of known names who buy and sell so they can use new knives, who view KKF as a community and contribute, and 
(2) the BST of people trying to profit (or post WTB Kato/Shig/Fujiyama) without contributing to the forum.

From here, it seems to me that it boils down to two ways of viewing/using BST:
Either as 
(1) as a place for enthusiasts/hobbyists/knifenerds (whatever you want to call “us”) to sell things (usually below cost) so that others can give new stuff a try, or 
(2) just as a marketplace, akin to free online classifieds—a Craigslist for knives.

I think it’s fair to view the forum as a community with norms as opposed to just an online bulletin board marketplace. I share Chinacats apprehension about flipping/profiteering. Sure, it always takes two to Tango on BST… but if BST just becomes a space for people to buy and sell with no intention of contributing to the forum, then this is a bummer of a direction for the forum to be heading...


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## bahamaroot (Aug 1, 2019)

This has been hashed out so many times now. As long as there are rare and low supply items there will be flipping. It's like that with every commodity, hobby and collectable. Always been that way and always will. On my "things to worry about in life" list, this one doesn't make it.


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## Matus (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> If you boot these so called "flippers," you'd boot most if not all of the sellers. Defining "flipper" becomes murky at best.



I try to word my reply in a way that it would not sound very serious. It is impossible to draw a line. But if someone is shooting for the stars, than you know it.

And I would definitely not call a flipper every person who sells an item for more they bought it. One example could be buying natural stones from unreliable sources (buyee, etc), testing them and selling them for more if they are really good. Doing so adds value for the buyer. Of course selling them for several times as much and failing to mention that that “Maruoyama Suita” (just an example I just made up) was actually a noname stone off buyee and is only considered to be one is, well, lying. If someone does this on a regular basis and us pricing the stones in a way to make up for the losses from bad stones and still wanting to make a profit. Well - such a person should register asva small business owner and come to KKF as a wendor.

I know I get worked up too much over this, but that is apparently a part of who I am. I get therapy sessions from Dave regularly to stay in line.


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## milkbaby (Aug 1, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Look up prices for Fujiyamas, Katos, Shigs. Though true that knives that aren't rare, made by revered makers with low-production output, still available, often sell for a loss, no one would buy them otherwise.



Yup, that's basically what I'm saying: other than a few Katos, the original sharpener Fujiyama, or fancy Shigs (the readily available KU nakiri/santoku no), flipperitis is not a big problem on BST here. I agree with you that BST is best left mostly hands off as a marketplace by the KKF administration. The current rules are sufficient to protect the value of the vendor memberships and to keep things civil among forumites IMHO.

Edited to add: Some variation on this thread has occurred plenty times before, and it doesn't seem like there's anything new to add? LOL


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## Chicagohawkie (Aug 1, 2019)

Same dumb ****, different day. Who cares!


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## DitmasPork (Aug 1, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> Yup, that's basically what I'm saying: other than a few Katos, the original sharpener Fujiyama, or fancy Shigs (the readily available KU nakiri/santoku no), flipperitis is not a big problem on BST here. I agree with you that BST is best left mostly hands off as a marketplace by the KKF administration. The current rules are sufficient to protect the value of the vendor memberships and to keep things civil among forumites IMHO.
> 
> Edited to add: Some variation on this thread has occurred plenty times before, and it doesn't seem like there's anything new to add? LOL



The value of KKF BST for me is mainly educational, learning about knives and their valuation, as well as window shopping, the knives I've bought and traded aren't rare. Katos/Shigs far beyond my economic reach at current prices—I like looking though.


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## Cyrilix (Aug 1, 2019)

How about no rules on what people can post or buy on BST, but we are allowed one sticky thread in the Kitchen Knives sub forum or another subforum where discussion of any listing is allowed? People are allowed to ask questions on a listing as well as mention that something is unfairly priced or not. It's up to the buyer to check this thread if they want this type of discussion.

This would be very in the spirit of the community (because people clearly want to point out listings that don't make sense to them) but would avoid this type of discussion in the BST subforum.


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## Xenif (Aug 1, 2019)

How about this? Self Goverence 

When we see a Matsumi Hinoura marketed as a Tsukasa, call it out. If you see a $30 crap stone being sold for $600, call it out. If you see a phony picture,call it out. If you see someone selling a reprofiled knife as a BNIB, call that out. When you see someone call something out when they shouldn't, call them out nicely (with reason). Im not saying its always malicious (most of the time it isnt).

I came, I learned, I stayed. All because I feel this was a good "community", where people learned knowledge and passes it on to others seeking the same, asking nothing in return. A community will have its ups and downs; disagreements, as-wipe memembers, DBs, and abusers are a part of any community. If we want to rise above it, then members should take pride, ownership, and leadership of their community.

KKF should be an oasis of knife knowledge, facts and ideas. Not a cheap sleazy bus stop motel where people pass on through, read old posts like cheap pamphlets and made shady deals in the BST parking lot.


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## Cyrilix (Aug 1, 2019)

Xenif said:


> How about this? Self Goverence
> 
> When we see a Matsumi Hinoura marketed as a Tsukasa, call it out. If you see a $30 crap stone being sold for $600, call it out. If you see a phony picture,call it out. If you see someone selling a reprofiled knife as a BNIB, call that out. When you see someone call something out when they shouldn't, call them out nicely (with reason). Im not saying its always malicious (most of the time it isnt).
> 
> ...



Totally agree, hence my suggestion above. You want to keep BST neutral, but if you want to **** on someone else's pricing, there is a separate room for that.


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## daveb (Aug 1, 2019)

Xenif said:


> DBs, and abusers are a part of any community. If we want to rise above it, then members should take pride, ownership, and leadership of their community.



Careful how you use DB here. I get enough grief already


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## Gregmega (Aug 1, 2019)

Eitan78 said:


> View attachment 58015



Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism- at least it’s an ethos...


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## WildBoar (Aug 1, 2019)

There are definitely more than a few serial sellers on KKF that I would never in a million years buy anything from. BST is not a convenience for members anymore -- some are using it as a quasi-business platform. While there have always been resellers, etc. on the various knife forums, many stayed in the background and conducted business via PMs, etc. but these days there are a crop of people who have no hesitation to sell in a manner that shows they seek to profit only, and not to trade with fellow enthusiasts/ pro users -- and that is very apparent by the jacked-up prices.


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## JChooMtl (Aug 1, 2019)

I am for the most part a lurker on this forum and I see this subject come up on a semi regular basis and I don’t understand why. Live your life and let others live theirs. If somebody wants to sell a knife at whatever price they want and somebody else is willing to pay that price, how is that your business? There is nothing you can do to stop it and from what I can see, it doesn’t hurt the spirit of this forum which is the exchange (or in my case, absorption) of information between enthusiasts. If it means so much to you, don’t sell to nor buy from these people that you find so repugnant.


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## Cyrilix (Aug 1, 2019)

JChooMtl said:


> I am for the most part a lurker on this forum and I see this subject come up on a semi regular basis and I don’t understand why. Live your life and let others live theirs. If somebody wants to sell a knife at whatever price they want and somebody else is willing to pay that price, how is that your business? There is nothing you can do to stop it and from what I can see, it doesn’t hurt the spirit of this forum which is the exchange (or in my case, absorption) of information between enthusiasts. If it means so much to you, don’t sell to nor buy from these people that you find so repugnant.



I think people agree. They just want to be able to provide disclosure at their leisure. In other words, they want to be allowed to call it out.


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## JChooMtl (Aug 1, 2019)

I am for the most part a lurker on this forum and I see this subject come up on a semi regular basis and I don’t understand why. Live your life and let others live theirs. If somebody wants to sell a knife at whatever price they want and somebody else is willing to pay that price, how is that your business? There is nothing you can do to stop it and from what I can see, it doesn’t hurt the spirit of this forum which is the exchange (or in my case, absorption) of information between enthusiasts. If it means so much to you, don’t sell to nor buy from these people that you find so repugnant.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 1, 2019)

I don't think people agree at all...

KKF enables this cancer by providing a high visibility, low cost, therfor high-profit platform for activities that are arguably sketchy and even illegal (tax evasion, money laundering, customs fraud, etc)...especially with international buyers/sellers and market arbitrage (eu/VAT taxes etc).

Flipping is a "community" problem because the items are not commodities and the markets are not truly competitive (econo 101)...there is a zero sum game for the production runs of certain makers, so every knife a flipper secures from a maker's limited run is another chef/cook/professional that is excluded if not by simply the economics of huge markups, even just from the waitlist (see abolishment of waitlists for shigefusa and others).

Since all of these low-paid professionals contribute alot of the content to KKF, its a sort of "spitting in the face" to them and a sign of general dis-respect.

Like many here I'm not really interested in re-hashing the arguments, but its always worth restating why there are in fact multiple sides to the issue. Even if you want to "agree to disagree" its better to not have your head stuck in the sand of what you are agreeing to ignore.

That's my $0.02

Oh, and GLWS


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## JChooMtl (Aug 1, 2019)

So essentially knives are not immune from the market forces that rule every other aspect of our lives?

I have long been priced out of an authentic Kramer, or a Shigefusa and Kato for that matter so I will have to just make do with my Mazakis, and Wakui, and Kochi, and Munetoshi, and Kaeru, and whatever your high value, readily available knife of choice is. Anybody in a similar situation who feels they are being disrespected or are being spit in the face might need to evaluate their sense of entitlement.


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## Cyrilix (Aug 1, 2019)

JChooMtl said:


> So essentially knives are not immune from the market forces that rule every other aspect of our lives?
> 
> I have long been priced out of an authentic Kramer, or a Shigefusa and Kato for that matter so I will have to just make do with my Mazakis, and Wakui, and Kochi, and Munetoshi, and Kaeru, and whatever your high value, readily available knife of choice is. Anybody in a similar situation who feels they are being disrespected or are being spit in the face might need to evaluate their sense of entitlement.



And market forces include discussion on the topic, which is currently not allowed.


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## Barclid (Aug 1, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> And market forces include discussion on the topic, which is currently not allowed.



Not allowed? Nah, **** that. Be the change you want to see in the world. And if that doesn't work... make your own BST... with hookers and blow.


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## Gregmega (Aug 1, 2019)

Once upon a time a chicken knife sold for 1600 on bst. And everyone lived happily ever after. The end.


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## Carl Kotte (Aug 2, 2019)

daveb said:


> Careful how you use DB here. I get enough grief already



I had no idea what it stands for. This https://www.acronymfinder.com/Slang/D_B.html made even unwiser.
The list doesn’t say that DB abbreviates daveb though [emoji39]


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## Luftmensch (Aug 2, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> My like new 10.5 inch Wustof, which I think I paid $150, I'd gladly give it away to someone I liked.



PM!!!


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## daddy yo yo (Aug 2, 2019)

Well, here's my 0.02$:

I think KKF is a great community and also its spirit on BST works quite well. I think, you can see mostly reasonably priced transactions. It gets a little tricky with rare knives, collectors items, if you want to call it that. I'd say Kato, Shig, those are priced above their value or purchase price. While this isn't exactly the KKF spirit, it is understandable. This is a hype or bubble at the moment, and maybe prices will go down again, maybe not. Who knows?

See it from a seller's point of view: why sell a knife cheap and see it pop up maybe even on BST some days later for double or triple its selling price?

If somebody is willing to pay high prices just for the sake of collecting, so be it. This is just capitalism/supply&demand, whether we like it or not. Most buyers, believe it or not, are adults who can make their own decisions, deciding whether they want something for price x, or not... See it from the buyer's perspective: you see a knife (or are offered one) for a certain price: it is up to you to decide if that asking price is what you are willing to pay for it. If yes, fine, you got what you wanted. If not, walk away. No need to be offended or angry.


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## ecchef (Aug 2, 2019)

I think everybody overlooked what I consider the most important 4 words in the OP: "Community aspect is toast". The debate about who's legal, who's grey, who's flipping, who's shilling, etc....all this centers around BST. As does a lot of moderation.
If I had better IT mojo, I'd look at the daily % activity among all the sub-forums. If BST is way more active than all the other subs, then I would say that chinacats has a legitimate argument regarding the community aspect. It would also make me sad. 
If vendors are being marginalized or are leaving, that would be a damned shame since the vendors were an integral part of the KKF community at its inception, and not just because they sold stuff.


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## Chicagohawkie (Aug 2, 2019)

We all could make an epic South Park episode here.


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## Elliot (Aug 2, 2019)

ecchef said:


> I think everybody overlooked what I consider the most important 4 words in the OP: "Community aspect is toast". The debate about who's legal, who's grey, who's flipping, who's shilling, etc....all this centers around BST. As does a lot of moderation.
> If I had better IT mojo, I'd look at the daily % activity among all the sub-forums. If BST is way more active than all the other subs, then I would say that chinacats has a legitimate argument regarding the community aspect. It would also make me sad.
> If vendors are being marginalized or are leaving, that would be a damned shame since the vendors were an integral part of the KKF community at its inception, and not just because they sold stuff.



I am honestly curious about statistics. I have a feeling BST is garnering the vast majority of clicks, views and attention. Just a guess.


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## ecchef (Aug 2, 2019)

About 30% behind the front runner & 50% above the #3 spot.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 2, 2019)

ecchef said:


> If vendors are being marginalized or are leaving, that would be a damned shame since the vendors were an integral part of the KKF community at its inception, and not just because they sold stuff.



In the “community sprint” I’d be very interested in hearing honest feedback from vendors on what aspects of KKF they like and dislike, from both vendors that are on KKF and those that have left. Transparency is a good thing.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 2, 2019)

Barclid said:


> Not allowed? Nah, **** that. Be the change you want to see in the world. And if that doesn't work... make your own BST... with hookers and blow.


“Hookers & Blow,” good name for a forum—Wags from Billions will be its poster child.


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## Xenif (Aug 2, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> In the “community sprint” I’d be very interested in hearing honest feedback from vendors on what aspects of KKF they like and dislike, from both vendors that are on KKF and those that have left. Transparency is a good thing.


Yes I would love to hear from them, the makers and the vendors are a key component of this community.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 2, 2019)

Xenif said:


> Yes I would love to hear from them, the makers and the vendors are a key component of this community.



Agreed. More active vendor engagement with the threads would benefit the forum greatly. Vendors are uniquely positioned to contribute a valuable perspective—mainly from often being the first point of contact to makers, and understanding the knife market more than anyone else. 

Most useful are the occasions when a knowledgeable vendor interjects in a thread to correct a longtime KKF member spouting off incorrect or misleading information.


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## RDalman (Aug 2, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> In the “community sprint” I’d be very interested in hearing honest feedback from vendors on what aspects of KKF they like and dislike, from both vendors that are on KKF and those that have left. Transparency is a good thing.



Yes the vendor list is pretty short all of a sudden. For me, and I believe others as well, it was too provocative the yearly fee at xxx usd, while clearly over half the vendors was not paying this for a long time, or ever(?) When I stopped paying they still let my sub remain for over a year. I like the community side of kkf though.


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## Matus (Aug 2, 2019)

RDalman said:


> Yes the vendor list is pretty short all of a sudden.



Well, it was cleaned up mainly because you pointed it out several times (yes, we should have kept it more up to date). But we also got some vendors back and I hope to see some new ones in the future. We are trying to be more flexible and are always opened to suggestions. As was mentioned already - vendors are one of the cornerstones of KKF especially when they find the time to share their knowledge and perspectives.


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## Sharpchef (Aug 2, 2019)

So where are all the vendors gone ??

Still a base for knowledge, but many members just watch the BST section... And there is nothing wrong with it.

Shig and Kato knives are way overpriced, but imagine you bought one (especially years ago) for maybe 400 for an 240mm one, only used it a handfull of times, like new condition.... What would you do ? sell it for 350 ? or maybe watch the market price and sell it for 1200 ?

What would happen, if anything went bad the one you sold it for 350 sell it for 1200 or even more ? Who made the mistake there ?

If an Vendor here gives an discount for KKF Members for Knife X maybe 20% off.... Imagine that this would be sought after knifes... And a few weeks later the knives pop up for regular sale price... Or even more ? Not good i think, this is one thing i forbid on my own forum in germany...
Vendors like Xerxes made some bunches of knifes with very good prices, and i don`t like them to be sold at higher rates, as xerxes also do not like this.
Our KMS Knife has also a price stop at 300 (depends on the handle....).

I hate myself for writing this, and i`am far away from making profits with trades etc.... But if i could i would do...

Greets Sebastian.


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## Edge (Aug 2, 2019)

Robin is right. Many Vendor forums were left too long. Some of it was for technical reasons and some was when I started to delete a few a year or more ago, people were using them for reference. Or so I was told. And as time has gone on, I've learned more and am in a position to listen to some folks here from all levels of participation.

And at this time, I am in a better position to work with anyone that wants to be a vendor and get a forum. I did offer to work with Robin, but he does like his status as it is. And as long as he does not advertise or sale we are on good footing with him.

But the mods/admins and I will be soft deleting any sales posts that is obviously more than a member selling a knife or two in other places and working with that member to become a Hobbiest or Pro/Vendor.


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## Matus (Aug 2, 2019)

@Sharpchef that is a very interesting policy. How do you control snd enforce it? Is the seller obliged to disclose how did he acquire the knife he wants to sell? Maybe we could learn something from you here.


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## WPerry (Aug 2, 2019)

I haven't (yet) participated in BST, but I understand where some of the frustration is coming from as I've run in to similar (admittedly first-world) problems with other hobbies. Sometimes, as a grateful member of the hobby, you want to do a good turn and pass something along to someone like-minded that will appreciate it. To see your piece relisted a week or two later for 50% more is a kick in the nuts that has nothing to do with the extra profit that you could have made.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 2, 2019)

WPerry said:


> I haven't (yet) participated in BST, but I understand where some of the frustration is coming from as I've run in to similar (admittedly first-world) problems with other hobbies. Sometimes, as a grateful member of the hobby, you want to do a good turn and pass something along to someone like-minded that will appreciate it. To see your piece relisted a week or two later for 50% more is a kick in the nuts that has nothing to do with the extra profit that you could have made.



Yeah, that sucks. But it's a marketplaces, capitalism, things bought and sold—whatever the intention or objectives of the seller is irrelevant, so long as the product matches the description, and both buyer and seller fulfill their end of the bargain. If I see something for sale on BST at a price I like, that's all that matters—I really couldn't give a hoot if the $300 knife was bought by the seller a week earlier for $150. I believe many buyers on BST probably would do the same. If a BNIB Shig gyuto came up for $800, people jumping on it are unlikely to care if it's sold by a "flipper" who scored it for $600.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 2, 2019)

I find it amusing all the "free market" people hate this idea of selling on ebay...


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## WPerry (Aug 2, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> But it's a marketplaces, capitalism, things bought and sold—whatever the intention or objectives of the seller is irrelevant, so long as the product matches the description, and both buyer and seller fulfill their end of the bargain.



Oh, is that how these things work? Thanks.


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## Barmoley (Aug 2, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> I find it amusing all the "free market" people hate this idea of selling on ebay...


I am not opposed to eBay in general. As a buyer I'd rather knives were offered here first though at whatever price, less competition. Still gives me an option of buying or not. eBay also requires more time and effort for the buyer, sometimes. Many sellers avoid eBay because of the fees involved and eBay in most cases taking buyers side in any dispute. Buyer can claim that the knife was not as described and eBay will almost always take the buyer's side, since there is no way for them to check. Just some of the reasons people don't like eBay regardless of their feelings on free markets.

I think this is still a great community, there are more people now than there were years back so ofcourse we see different behaviors from when it was a tiny group of super enthusiasts. There are some abuses for sure, but these seem tiny in comparison to the knowledge shared and great members that offer trades or just lend knives to others. Without BST on this forum I, for better or worse, would not be able to try all the different knives and figure out what I like....


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## DitmasPork (Aug 2, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> I find it amusing all the "free market" people hate this idea of selling on ebay...



BST is as much a "free market" platform as eBay. I've never bought a knife from eBay, just find KKF to carry more trustworthy and carrying of what I'm interested in. For me there's too much crap on eBay to slog through.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 2, 2019)

AFAIK "free market" socieities regulary ban the sale of certain goods for the benefit of the larger community aspect...eg, we ban the sale/trade of endangered species....all the time...think Ivory and Brazillian Rosewood, etc.

There are other classes of products we ban the general trade of but still allow, eg you cannot buy (sell).... stocks/bonds/derivatives... on craigslist or ebay but you can (trade freely) using markets designed fro these products...(nyse/nasdaq, etc)

That's no different than KKF allowing the sale of many if not most knives here in a community spirit.......and still banning flippers/arbitrageurs and telling them to take a hike to ebay.

Your just treating those transactions like the trade in "endangered species"....and not providing the platform (KKF/BST) for their continued exploitation... that are potentially toxic to the community

Whether or not ebay is a hassle or has fees etc is nothing different than trading on a formalized exchange like NYSE. 

IMHO, There is nothing "anti-free market" about this kind of management of one market in relation to the existence of others.


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## ian (Aug 2, 2019)

My turn to make some noise in this thread, with minimal new content. #winning



DitmasPork said:


> BST is as much a "free market" platform as eBay.



It feels different to me, since it’s just one forum in a wonderful community of people all interested to the point of absurdity in tools used to cut strawberries, carrots, chicken, and bread. (That essentially covers it, right?)

Personally, I just ignore any thread with BNIB in the title. However, it does wreck the illusion that everyone here has your back, and wants to make sure you get a good price, when people post here looking to make a profit. By contrast, all my purchases felt like:

Other person: “Dude, I got this knife I’m not using!”

Me: “Dude/girrl!”

Other person: “It’s awesome and I want you to try it. I just want to make enough so that I can keep buying more knives!”

Me: “****ing solid! I would like to facilitate this behavior!”

Other person: “Sold!”

As many have said, I imagine this type of interaction is more the norm than the other kind. It would be great if it were the only type of interaction on BST, and if people looking to profit went over to eBay or something. However, that seems impossible for the mods to enforce, and maybe then KKF members would miss out on some rare knives that they want...

What would be nice, though, is if the rules about negative comments on BST could be relaxed a bit in this situation, just so that buyers will go into the transaction with more information. Maybe this is a slippery slope, but it seems like something that could be reasonably enforced. Others with more experience may know better though.


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## Barmoley (Aug 2, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> AFAIK "free market" socieities regulary ban the sale of certain goods for the benefit of the larger community aspect...eg, we ban the sale/trade of endangered species....all the time...think Ivory and Brazillian Rosewood, etc.
> 
> There are other classes of products we ban the general trade of but still allow, eg you cannot buy (sell).... stocks/bonds/derivatives... on craigslist or ebay but you can (trade freely) using markets designed fro these products...(nyse/nasdaq, etc)
> 
> ...



Mods said it many times that it is impractical, expensive to do. Someone needs to police this stuff and make a judgement call what is or isn't a flip. Unless you ban sales of classes of knives, e.g no sales of Kato knives of any kind. I don't know how this will improve the community, but something like that is doable.


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## Cyrilix (Aug 2, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Mods said it many times that it is impractical, expensive to do. Someone needs to police this stuff and make a judgement call what is or isn't a flip. Unless you ban sales of classes of knives, e.g no sales of Kato knives of any kind. I don't know how this will improve the community, but something like that is doable.



I've already presented a halfway solution. Allow people to post in a sticky in a sub forum to criticize a listing, for any reason (knife sucks, price too high, used but marked as bnib, seller has a track record of profiteering, etc.). People that want to not give a **** and "free market" can do so, buyer and seller alike. People that want to "assist in the free market" by discouraging profiteering can also do so. @Matus @daveb You guys takers on this idea?


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## ian (Aug 2, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> I've already presented a halfway solution. Allow people to post in a sticky in a sub forum to criticize a listing, for any reason (knife sucks, price too high, used but marked as bnib, seller has a track record of profiteering, etc.). People that want to not give a **** and "free market" can do so, buyer and seller alike. People that want to "assist in the free market" by discouraging profiteering can also do so. @Matus @daveb You guys takers on this idea?



That does seem more compatible with current rules concerning negative comments on BST posts, but it just seems to me like a workaround to that rule, rather than an idea you would promote from the get-go. Allowing these types of comments on BST posts directly (if the mods deem them appropriate) makes more sense to me, as noted above. Why deliberately make it harder to find this info, if you’re going to allow it to be posted on the site? That’s like saying: it’s ok if newcomers to the site are duped, we just want to prevent *us* from being duped.


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## Midsummer (Aug 2, 2019)

In terms of the downside to vendors; I suspect that it is not a zero sum game. I believe that BST helps to showcase knives that are out there and it presents them in an appealing way generating interest. This interest helps to increase the total number of knives that are sold. 

I think the biggest threat to the KKF vendors are the plethora of new vendors opening their doors.


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## Cyrilix (Aug 2, 2019)

ian said:


> That does seem more compatible with current rules concerning negative comments on BST posts, but it just seems to me like a workaround to that rule, rather than an idea you would promote from the get-go. Allowing these types of comments on BST posts directly (if the mods deem them appropriate) makes more sense to me, as noted above. Why make a buyer have to search for this info?



That might be a next step, but these are fairly significant changes that need a mindset change and community acceptance. A community's culture is just like a company's culture, in some ways. It embodies what the community values. Clearly, a lot of us value goodwill and sharing with other fellow enthusiasts, so maybe we'll get there. There needs to be some guidelines as to what type of criticism posts are allowed.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 2, 2019)

ian said:


> That does seem more compatible with current rules concerning negative comments on BST posts, but it just seems to me like a workaround to that rule, rather than an idea you would promote from the get-go. Allowing these types of comments on BST posts directly (if the mods deem them appropriate) makes more sense to me, as noted above. Why deliberately make it harder to find this info, if you’re going to allow it to be posted on the site? That’s like saying: it’s ok if newcomers to the site are duped, we just want to prevent *us* from being duped.



Most of my transactions on BST have been very similar, I've been a happy customer. I tend to buy/trade with people I like and trust. 

My main issue is that additional rules, would just be an additional hurdle for perceived flippers to hop over, and they will. 

I'm into transparency, and a free flow of information that could potentially help newbies not get duped. I've seen a good person get banned from pointing out issues worth discussing, I've seen valid comments deleted from BST posts that were simply pointing out misleading information.


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## Steel+Fire (Aug 2, 2019)

I mostly use the forum for reference as you all have put a ton of info out that is readily searchable. I have been a member at other types of forums where this issue has also been discussed. My personal feelings are pretty much that BST is fine as is but given the discussion I thought I would ask. Why are BST for sale posts not limited to contributing members who have financially supported the site? Just a question as this often seems to keep drive by flippers to a minimum if someone has to pay a monthly fee to be able to sell on BST.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 2, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Unless you ban sales of classes of knives, e.g no sales of Kato knives of any kind...



This seems to be how the endangered species rules work...you just identify the "endandgered species"


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## Barmoley (Aug 2, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> That might be a next step, but these are fairly significant changes that need a mindset change and community acceptance. A community's culture is just like a company's culture, in some ways. It embodies what the community values. Clearly, a lot of us value goodwill and sharing with other fellow enthusiasts, so maybe we'll get there. There needs to be some guidelines as to what type of criticism posts are allowed.



It is also hard on the mods, because they need to vet negative comments which after all are opinions and not facts. If I say that a knife is BNIB it is because I bought it from a vendor looked at it, held it and decided it is not for me. Or I bought it intended to use it, but because I bought multiple knives I didn't get to it in month and later decided to sell it. Someone might question my statements, but they have no information to back up their claim, but now there is a doubt in potential buyers' mind. So whom should the mods believe? Whom will pay for all this extra work that the mods now have to do?


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## tgfencer (Aug 2, 2019)

Apologies for the long post, but given this conversation repeatedly comes up, I want to give it a bit more attention. For the sake of transparency, I will say (not for the first time) that I have both profited from sales and lost money from sales. Furthermore, I have given discounts to those who I thought deserved it or made reasonable arguments, accepted an offer above my sales price, and refused an increased offer from a buyer I didn't respect/trust. Make of that what you will.

To start, I think it's a mistake to conflate BST practices with any kind of degradation of the KKF community. Maybe because I prefer to be a rose-tinted glasses sorta guy, but I tend to think that rather than most of the community suddenly losing it's moral fiber, there are a small segment who might be trying to find ways to exploit others (although it bears repeating that you still have to allow yourself to be exploited aka 'it takes two to flip'). It happens, but not so much that I find it unbearable, and certainly much less than in other parts of the internet. 
The vast majority of people I've had decent amounts of contact with on the forum have been stand up folks, and have given many of them my trust and been trusted in return. In fact, right now I have about 2-3K worth of knives sitting in my house for a member for whom I offered to act as a shipping intermediary. I also have a knife I own on the way back from a roughly 1.5 month testing session with a member from NYC. The operation of BST in no way impacts these relationships and interactions that KKF has served to introduce me to.

Ultimately, how other people choose to spend their money is not my concern. We're all adults here-hopefully even friends- and so should be able to exercise good judgement, safe financial practices, and be willing watch out for each other in the rare event of a true scammer. I'd much rather apologize for respectfully questioning a BST post I find suspicious, then hold my tongue and find out someone's been cheated after the fact. However, while I'm more than willing to keep an eye out for suspicious activity and also willing to admit that the protocol for how to publicly address this activity on BST is vague and confusing, I also expect newcomers to do an appropriate amount of research, information gathering, and to utilize the search function. To my mind, someone buying a $1-2k BNIB Kato or Shig does not constitute scamming (unless that knife was altered, defective, or in some way substantially misrepresented in the post). It may however, depending on the buyer, end up representing a poor investment.

The BST subforum is undeniably one of the big draws of KKF. Unfortunately, it's also a lodestone for trouble. Whenever money is involved, things can get complicated, opinions can be strong, and people can get upset. To my mind, much of this existing tension is down to two conflicting sentiments. No buyer wants to feel like they're getting taken advantage of and no seller wants to think that they are selling below what they personally deem to be a fair value. Unfortunately, given that these are both personal opinions based upon numerous factors, there is no real universal way to ease the tension.
BST can really only operate effectively in one of two ways: either as a 'free market' or as a 'regulated market'. Both have issues, but to my mind the problems with adding restrictions are myriad (who decides what they are?, would they be voted in? if so, what system would be used?, how far reaching would the rules be?, how would they be policed/enforced? etc). A free market is essentially 'self-regulating', choosing not to limit user participation via rules, but rather to allow users active decision-making to reduce undesirable practices and expel those who try to game the system. A regulated market, however, would effectively prevent users from participating based on certain criteria (such as, just for an abstract example, imposing a regulation limiting the dollar value of sales). Personally, I would rather have the option to ignore a member whose actions I don't agree with, than to prevent others from having the opportunity to buy or sell with mutual agreed upon prices.

For what its worth, I also think too much is expected of the moderators sometimes. A community shouldn't need the presence of police to stop them going around robbing each other. The mods aren't perfect, but they aren't unfeeling monsters either. I have my disagreements and opinions the same as anyone else, but I think the stewardship of KKF is, overall, fairly respectable. I certainly would not want to be a moderator, and having been in similar positions elsewhere, I can reassure anyone who thinks otherwise that the job is much more difficult than you might suspect. All that said, I respect those on this thread who are attempting to work with mods to propose solutions to what they see as problems. I may not agree with all the ideas, but the spirit of cooperation is infinitely more laudable than just complaining. 

As for our community as a whole, the fact is, KKF has a lot of competition these days. Places like Instagram/Facebook combine fluid posting of pictures, a worldwide community, and direct access/conversation with makers, vendors, and other knife users. If I want to post a comparative series of choil shots, I can do it in a sixth of the time via instagram than through KKF and still reach some, if not most of the same audience. I can also chat and exchange information with my favorite custom makers or jnat nerds with ease. Even so, I think KKF is a wealth of information and good resources. I won't ever leave, even if I choose to take certain types of posts or conversations elsewhere.

To quickly address the issue of vendors/makers, I think asking small businesses to pay for vendor status is understandable, but likewise, it's also understandable that these folks might choose to spend or invest their limited overhead/marketing time and money into other outlets, such as social media platforms. I hope they stick around and that new ones arrive, but for those that do leave or have already left, I wish them the best of luck and will continue to follow those I like elsewhere. Ultimately, their work speaks for itself and their livelihoods and personal/professional wellbeing are more important than any sort of sense of loyalty to KKF.


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## ian (Aug 2, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> It is also hard on the mods, because they need to vet negative comments which after all are opinions and not facts. If I say that a knife is BNIB it is because I bought it from a vendor looked at it, held it and decided it is not for me. Or I bought it intended to use it, but because I bought multiple knives I didn't get to it in month and later decided to sell it. Someone might question my statements, but they have no information to back up their claim, but now there is a doubt in potential buyers' mind. So whom should the mods believe? Whom will pay for all this extra work that the mods now have to do?



I don't think the mods would necessarily have to vet everything said. In the image I have in my mind, they would just take something down if they deemed it misleading or completely unsubstantiated. This might result in there being threads on BST in which people present conflicting arguments, but I don't think that would be the worst thing in the world, if it helped prospective buyers. There should still be a standing norm that first contact about such an issue should be a PM, though.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 2, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> It is also hard on the mods, because they need to vet negative comments which after all are opinions and not facts. If I say that a knife is BNIB it is because I bought it from a vendor looked at it, held it and decided it is not for me. Or I bought it intended to use it, but because I bought multiple knives I didn't get to it in month and later decided to sell it. Someone might question my statements, but they have no information to back up their claim, but now there is a doubt in potential buyers' mind. So whom should the mods believe? Whom will pay for all this extra work that the mods now have to do?




You make a very good point. I appreciate the challenges that the mods face deciphering between someone who wants to sell a new knife that's just not for them vs someone who's profiting from flipping (which is discouraged, but in no way forbidden as per BST rules).

It's my belief and practice, that "BUYER BEWARE" when shopping on KKF BST, unless you know and trust the seller. Sellers are independents, using caution is common sense. At least on eBay there are "seller rating" where one can get an idea of track record, etc.

Probably 95% of my knives were bought from vendors. I'd gladly pay more for a BNIB knife from a trusted vendor who puts their reputation behind their product—money saved might be a false economy.

Personally, "BNIB" is a term that I take with a big grain of salt on BST. Once it's in someone else's hands, it's used in my book. Try selling a new car after accepting ownership of it. Whereas with vendors, I trust that it's never been used, received direct from the maker—if I'd a major quality issue, they'd make good on it.

BST is a useful platform, but a little knowledge and care should be used when buying.


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## pete84 (Aug 2, 2019)

Quite a few members on KKF now appear to question the rights of an individual (or of particular individuals) to conduct what are essentially private transactions of private property between consenting adults and turning it into a public debate over price inflation and re-sellers, which in my mind is ridiculous. Further, the cries for regulation and supervision goes to show many "adults" never really learned how to be one and expect "big brother" to make things "right" or" fair", which frankly is pathetic.

The BST forum at its essence is a place to post and view and contact other members for the exchange of secondary market knives. (Secondary being defined as _pre-owned_ items, regardless of use/disuse/condition). Terms are to be defined on a case by case basis by the individuals involved, until a mutual agreement is reached. Bear in mind that pre-owned items are more often than not bought from a "real" vendor at retail when new, so the business that distributed and sold it already got its share of profit on that item before it ever enters the secondary market.

BST rules are clear that regulation of pricing is nobody's business and that horse has been beat to death. It cannot be simpler than "if you don't like the price, don't buy it", can it? It is baffling to me how some people feel the need to concern themselves with and complain about _things belonging to other people, being bought by more other people. _

I like the comparisons to vintage Rolex and classic cars. Rare, sought after, highly valued _because of demand_.
*
The same supply/demand dynamic that drives prices up on rare/desirable items is what allows many of us here on KKF to purchase secondary knives at a significant savings*. Yet I don't see anyone complain they didn't pay enough last time there was a smoking hot B/S/T deal. The vast majority of items I have seen sold in B/S/T during my time here are sold below their cost to owner and prices often continue to drop until item sells. Personally, I've "lost" money on almost every knife I've sold here, sometimes a significant amount if a knife is not popular or of a specialized use (i.e. usuba). Therefore, if I am subject to losses from devaluation, low demand and market oversupply on some knives I sell, how am I not entitled to profits when the market determines someone is willing and able to pay the asking price?


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 2, 2019)

Custom Wa handle venders have disappeared because they make way less than minimum wage to make those things. Its more about the lust for seeing how nice exotic woods look. 

Can't see how anyone trying to flip knives could think of it as a income stream. Maybe naïve but thought most knives on BST were bought because of knife lust, the popular maker. When they begin to stack up unload on BST.


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## ian (Aug 2, 2019)

pete84 said:


> Quite a few members on KKF now appear to question the rights of an individual (or of particular individuals) to conduct what are essentially private transactions of private property between consenting adults and turning it into a public debate over price inflation and re-sellers, which in my mind is ridiculous. Further, the cries for regulation and supervision goes to show many "adults" never really learned how to be one and expect "big brother" to make things "right" or" fair", which frankly is pathetic.
> 
> The BST forum at its essence is a place to post and view and contact other members for the exchange of secondary market knives. (Secondary being defined as _pre-owned_ items, regardless of use/disuse/condition). Terms are to be defined on a case by case basis by the individuals involved, until a mutual agreement is reached. Bear in mind that pre-owned items are more often than not bought from a "real" vendor at retail when new, so the business that distributed and sold it already got its share of profit on that item before it ever enters the secondary market.
> 
> ...



I don’t think anyone’s asking for Katos that were bought for $400 years ago to be sold at that price. Long term price fluctuations are totally fine. People are upset about people finding deals somehow, and then immediately selling for a significantly higher price. 

It strikes me that in asking for less regulation of negative comments on BST posts, I’m actually promoting a more free market than currently exists...


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## Barmoley (Aug 2, 2019)

Cars are not knives. A knife can be BNIB if it hasn't been used. It all boils down to trust. I will trust a member until proven otherwise, or if something is very off. I am willing to take that risk in order to not suspect everyone. So far I haven't had bad transactions on BST. I also had members loan me knives for free, some of which were very expensive. Knives are not ruined by looking at them or even using them a little. Knives can be ruined by abuse or total neglect, but I haven't seen such knives being sold as new. We all want good deals, but it is unreasonable to expect someone to sell you a new knife at a steep discount just because they looked at it. A little lower sure, but very few people will try many knives if they lost significant amount just by looking or using a knife a little. The community would be poorer as a whole if knives didn't change hands as often as they do. Very few can try all these knives if they lost much on each of them. Besides what happens as the knife changes hands, do you expect it to loose same % as it changes hands?


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## pete84 (Aug 2, 2019)

ian said:


> I don’t think anyone’s asking for Katos that were bought for $400 years ago to be sold at that price. Long term price fluctuations are totally fine. People are upset about people finding deals somehow, and then immediately selling for a significantly higher price.
> 
> It strikes me that in asking for less regulation of negative comments on BST posts, I’m actually promoting a more free market than currently exists...



The existence of serial "flippers" is a problem that comes with the internet and globalization. Any and every marketplace will suffer from prospectors and flippers if the opportunity exists. Getting worked up over it, making broad generalizations about the degradation of KKF and demanding regulation from already busy mods is not the way to go. Being a smart shopper and doing your homework, and avoiding getting on any hype train ie shig/kato/honyaki etc (even TF and Kono had its moments recently) is really the only way to not be "taken advantage of".


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## WPerry (Aug 2, 2019)

pete84 said:


> Quite a few members on KKF now appear to question the rights of an individual (or of particular individuals) to conduct what are essentially private transactions of private property between consenting adults and turning it into a public debate over price inflation and re-sellers, which in my mind is ridiculous. Further, the cries for regulation and supervision goes to show many "adults" never really learned how to be one and expect "big brother" to make things "right" or" fair", which frankly is pathetic.



If that's your understanding, I think you're misunderstanding.


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## pete84 (Aug 2, 2019)

WPerry said:


> If that's your understanding, I think you're misunderstanding.



Explain.

And who are you?


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## McMan (Aug 2, 2019)

I don’t know why I’m taking the bait on this one, but I will… plus, I need an excuse for another coffee…

This isn’t a debate about price structures or what people do with their money to get something useful or make themselves happy (or both).
Rather, it’s a debate about how people with nine posts that never contribute to our discussions are using BST as a side hustle by flipping knives--using BST like an online bulletein board (think Craigslist). My thinking is that allowing a free flow of information in BST posts helps.


pete84 said:


> Quite a few members on KKF now appear to question the rights of an individual (or of particular individuals) to conduct what are essentially private transactions of private property between consenting adults and turning it into a public debate over price inflation and re-sellers, which in my mind is ridiculous. Further, the cries for regulation and supervision goes to show many "adults" never really learned how to be one and expect "big brother" to make things "right" or" fair", which frankly is pathetic.


All societies and cultures have regulations—they can be norms or policies or laws. Regardless, there is nothing “pathetic” about discussing them. Nor is it a sign that “people have not grown up”. Quite the contrary. It’s a sign that people are invested in their community. Calling people that take a different perspective from you childish is not a counterargument (or a point); it’s just an insult and an irony.


pete84 said:


> It is baffling to me how some people feel the need to concern themselves with and complain about _things belonging to other people, being bought by more other people._


Why? It shouldn’t be baffling—this is how all economies work. In fact, this is one of the fundamental ways price structures are determined over time—by people observing “_things belonging to other people, being bought by more other people.”_—hence the BST policy that sellers must keep their prices up and not delete them.

All economies are regulated one way or another, formally and informally. It shouldn’t be “baffling” at all that you can’t sell meth out of your driveway even if you can buy all the pre-cursor ingredients legally. It's not going to be "baffling" next week when you buy a plastic bucket made in China from the dollar store that costs $1.99 even though the Chinese producers would wish for that price to be lower but that bucket got hit with tariffs...


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## Cyrilix (Aug 2, 2019)

pete84 said:


> Explain.
> 
> And who are you?



I think the ask is freedom of speech in BST. Calling out behaviour.


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## WildBoar (Aug 2, 2019)

ecchef said:


> I think everybody overlooked what I consider the most important 4 words in the OP: "Community aspect is toast". The debate about who's legal, who's grey, who's flipping, who's shilling, etc....all this centers around BST. As does a lot of moderation.
> If I had better IT mojo, I'd look at the daily % activity among all the sub-forums. If BST is way more active than all the other subs, then I would say that chinacats has a legitimate argument regarding the community aspect. It would also make me sad.
> If vendors are being marginalized or are leaving, that would be a damned shame since the vendors were an integral part of the KKF community at its inception, and not just because they sold stuff.


It has seemed lately when I click on "New Posts" BST are the majority -- and often by a large margin.


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## Nemo (Aug 2, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> I've already presented a halfway solution. Allow people to post in a sticky in a sub forum to criticize a listing, for any reason (knife sucks, price too high, used but marked as bnib, seller has a track record of profiteering, etc.). People that want to not give a **** and "free market" can do so, buyer and seller alike. People that want to "assist in the free market" by discouraging profiteering can also do so. @Matus @daveb You guys takers on this idea?


Not only is this allowed, it's been done (minus the sticky part):

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/index.php?threads/36865/

Post to your heart's content.


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## Cyrilix (Aug 2, 2019)

Nemo said:


> Not only is this allowed, it's been done (minus the sticky part):
> 
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/index.php?threads/36865/
> 
> Post to your heart's content.



I did not know this. Thank you.


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## pete84 (Aug 2, 2019)

McMan said:


> I don’t know why I’m taking the bait on this one, but I will… plus, I need an excuse for another coffee…
> 
> This isn’t a debate about price structures or what people do with their money to get something useful or make themselves happy (or both).
> Rather, it’s a debate about how people with nine posts that never contribute to our discussions are using BST as a side hustle by flipping knives--using BST like an online bulletein board (think Craigslist). My thinking is that allowing a free flow of information in BST posts helps.
> ...



Hope that coffee was good, could use a cup myself 

I see this issue being the most divisive (only divisive?) topic on KKF currently. It polarizes people, and I think that is because it has to do with fundamental views of individual freedoms and community responsibilities, markets and economies, and esp. the role "governing structures" play in that scheme. Much akin to the debate we have in our society in general, "liberal" vs "conservative". In the end, everybody is seeking the same goal: a "fair" marketplace that is in line this community's ethical guidelines. But what is "fair"? And what are the ethics that this community, and by extension BST, believes in and decides to encourage/enforce? No clear cut answer there, because there are as many people in the "private transaction" camp as the "flippers are the new scourge" camp and both sides have valid arguments.

Because you deny it or haven't read it doesn't change the fact this debate encapsulates all three topics you mention: price structures of retailers and private sellers, what choices private individuals are making with their money, and the existence of new member "flippers" who many feel take advantage of BST. All those topics have been mentioned and discussed at length on the forum, in this thread and others.

Yes, societies and cultures have norms/laws/regulations/etc... because they are in place to protect the individuals and the society as a whole from the abuses or harms caused by the excess of individual freedoms. The moral and ethical justification is the intent to balance the rights of the individual vs the safety and stability of that society.

However, in the microcosm that is KKF and BST, the potential harms to the society of allowing the "flipping" to continue are quite limited: some people do get upset but I find it hard to believe people get hurt or die from not buying a Kato or Shig because its overpriced. People get hurt and die from meth and the harms to society are real, so your comparison is foolish and false.

Something which I prefaced as my opinion; I never said discussion of this topic is pathetic. You didn't fully read or comprehend my statement. I find it pathetic how some members believe the answer to flipping is to "tell the teacher" and have more regulation and rules put in place in BST. Asking the Admins and Mods to play police so they can try and hopefully ban or discourage the people who flip is pointless because this is the internet, and usernames/emails are free and limitless. Plus, are you going to compensate for their time and effort? *I see a lot of newer, non-supporting members who have a lot to say about what goes on around here. Have YOU invested in your community? Paid your dues? Put your money where your mouth is. *

I already stated that profiteering and "flipping" are as old as commerce and trade itself and as long as opportunities exist, there will be unscrupulous opportunists. The internet makes it worse. I remember the $100 bottles of drinking water in Houston or New Orleans after the floods. Now that is truly evil opportunism, because it is capitalizing on peoples NEEDS. These knives are WANTS and NOBODY NEEDS a Kato or Shig or whatever hype knife. So again I ask, what are the harms to the society of KKF or in general that are severe enough to justify limiting individual rights to have transactions in private, regardless of who the individual is? Rights cannot be applied unequally; otherwise they are not rights at all.

People who cry and complain about what other people do, when it has no direct impact on their quality of life or well-being, and can't mind their own business are truly pathetic and need to grow up. If a politician does something, or your employer does something, and it pisses you off because it affects your life, you have every right to say or do whatever you feel necessary. But whining because of BST posts? C'mon.


For example, if it hurts you and upsets you enough *to complain publicly* that I sold my knife for $1000 when I bought it for $600, to someone who happily wants to pay $1000 for it today, you are *PATHETIC* and need to get a life. It doesn't matter if it was bought 6 years ago or 6 days ago. The part I find "baffling" but you didn't understand is how people are so concerned and involved (emotionally it seems, masked as ethical concerns) in the private dealings of other people, when that transaction has no direct impact on the outside party's quality of life or well-being. I understand and fully support people not liking things and having strong opinions; however, when an opinion becomes a contention that something is wrong with the society and needs systemic regulatory correction, when there are no clear harms justifying that regulation on balance, it is absurd.

You are correct, market conditions are determined by regulating factors, either external or internal. Internal is the supply/demand dynamic and external being government or social controls. However, all economies do not work how you describe; price and transaction transparency is not a fundamental characteristic of just any "economy". It is the characteristic what are considered "free market" economies. And BST is now and is intended to be a "free market" type scenario. Where prices ought to be recorded after sale. Where supply and demand ought to dictate prices. If someone does not like that price, it does not matter.

And what does an overpriced bucket from China have to do with anything?


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## labor of love (Aug 2, 2019)

The online kitchen knife community seems to be growing more and more each year. Seems inevitable that a competing forum will emerge that may form a different value system than this one. 
Oh btw a schism in knife users is how this forum came to be. Wouldn’t surprise me if it happens again.


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## McMan (Aug 2, 2019)

pete84 said:


> Hope that coffee was good, could use a cup myself
> 
> I see this issue being the most divisive (only divisive?) topic on KKF currently. It polarizes people, and I think that is because it has to do with fundamental views of individual freedoms and community responsibilities, markets and economies, and esp. the role "governing structures" play in that scheme. Much akin to the debate we have in our society in general, "liberal" vs "conservative". In the end, everybody is seeking the same goal: a "fair" marketplace that is in line this community's ethical guidelines. But what is "fair"? And what are the ethics that this community, and by extension BST, believes in and decides to encourage/enforce? No clear cut answer there, because there are as many people in the "private transaction" camp as the "flippers are the new scourge" camp and both sides have valid arguments.
> 
> ...



GLWS


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## pete84 (Aug 2, 2019)

McMan said:


> GLWS



I guess reading isn't everybody's cup of tea


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## JChooMtl (Aug 2, 2019)

Pete84’s post is the embodiment of how I feel about this subject and life in general. Except for the coffee part. I hope it was cold and bitter and made your teeth brown.


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## McMan (Aug 2, 2019)

pete84 said:


> I guess reading isn't everybody's cup of tea


I drink coffee.


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## pete84 (Aug 2, 2019)

Hahaha yeah it does a number on my teeth, whitening toothpaste is terrible for them but oh well gotta do what ya gotta do

McMan, hope you aren't put off by some light sparring? You picked up the gauntlet sir


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## McMan (Aug 2, 2019)

pete84 said:


> Hahaha yeah it does a number on my teeth, whitening toothpaste is terrible for them but oh well gotta do what ya gotta do
> 
> McMan, hope you aren't put off by some light sparring? You picked up the gauntlet sir



Nah, you and I talking any more will go nowhere. I took the bait this afternoon. 
I will say this, though: Don’t feel that you can be disrespectful to me simply because you disagree with me.


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## WPerry (Aug 2, 2019)

McMan said:


> Nah, you and I talking any more will go nowhere. I took the bait this afternoon.



That his idea of a rational argument read like a winning Breitbart Bingo card should have been sufficient warning. Shame on you.


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## pete84 (Aug 2, 2019)

Breitbart? You are laughable, don't pretend you know me

Disrespect? Anyone who can read can see it all for themselves. I never said anything about you sir. And again, you are the one who picked up the gauntlet. Sorry you can't handle it


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## ian (Aug 2, 2019)

labor of love said:


> The online kitchen knife community seems to be growing more and more each year. Seems inevitable that a competing forum will emerge that may form a different value system than this one.
> Oh btw a schism in knife users is how this forum came to be. Wouldn’t surprise me if it happens again.



I’m continually impressed that there seem to be multiple “first posts” every day. 

Curious to know how many “last posts” there are a day.


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## WildBoar (Aug 2, 2019)

Be careful what you say, he has a knife!

And so does he!

And her!

And the guy over there!

Screw it -- I despise people who score a desirable product and then turn right around and sell it for a lot higher price to the people in the 'community' they are supposedly part of. I deal with it by not interacting with those asshats. Easy enough. Except when I hit "New Posts", and most of what I see are FS posts, with several of those types of listing included. I have zero issues with people who bought a knife, and values of that maker's work have climbed a lot, so when they eventually go to sell they can sell for more than they paid. But go and snatch a handful of knives from a maker that is in demand, and then turn around and list them for 25-50% more, and you are nothing but a piece of poop in my book -- and you definitely are not part of any 'community' I want to be part of. It isn't just here -- I see it on some watch and car forums as well, and ignore those people (frankly people like that never seem to contribute any usable content to the forums anyway). The frustration is when the forum software does not allow one to 'ignore' specified members. I wish all forum software had 'ignore' features that could not be disabled by the forum owners.

Ah, I feel better now.


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## ian (Aug 2, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> Be careful what you say, he has a knife!
> 
> And so does he!
> 
> ...



However, all their knives are BNIB $1000+ Katos, so none of them will use them in a fight!


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## WildBoar (Aug 2, 2019)

BTW, this thread sorely needs commentary from ChefDoom and Panda...


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## WPerry (Aug 2, 2019)

ian said:


> However, all their knives are $1000+ Katos, so none of them will use them in a fight!



In fairness, they were $600 Katos when they bought them, but they're BNIB $1000 Katos now.


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## pete84 (Aug 2, 2019)

Yes, pieces of poop. Pieces of poop, unfortunately, are a fact of life. Should we allow them to dictate the rights and privileges of the rest of us who respect the rules and are playing fairly in ways most would consider "ethical"?


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## labor of love (Aug 2, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> BTW, this thread sorely needs commentary from ChefDoom and Panda...


@Chef Doom 
There, fixed it for you.


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## WildBoar (Aug 2, 2019)

pete84 said:


> Yes, pieces of poop. Pieces of poop, unfortunately, are a fact of life. Should we allow them to dictate the rights and privileges of the rest of us who respect the rules and are playing fairly in ways most would consider "ethical"?


While they do not dictate anything, I believe it has impact the spirit of the forums and driven some long-time members away. In talking with some others, their views are similar to mine -- KKF seems at times to be more about selling that anything else.


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## Cyrilix (Aug 2, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> While they do not dictate anything, I believe it has impact the spirit of the forums and driven some long-time members away. In talking with some others, their views are similar to mine -- KKF seems at times to be more about selling that anything else.



I think this really hits at the heart of what it's about. What do the owners and administrators of the forum want KKF to be? This is the most important question. If they want it to be a specific type of community, then they have to set policies and guidelines that will work towards that goal. If they want it to be entirely user driven, then not setting any policy or guidelines will achieve that goal.


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## milkbaby (Aug 2, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> While they do not dictate anything, I believe it has impact the spirit of the forums and driven some long-time members away. In talking with some others, their views are similar to mine -- KKF seems at times to be more about selling that anything else.



I read it more that a lot of people are broke azz and need to sell. A minority of the BST posts are the "flipper" type, most are "oh s&it I have to pay for this other knife now, but how"... Where can I find a bunch of other crazy kitchen knife addicts? If only I knew... 

I do agree that the last month or two there's been a crazy amount of BST action compared to normal, not sure exactly why.

There are also 30+ pages on the Mazaki thread, something I find somewhat incredible. Is there really that much to discuss? But it's cool, that's just how I feel but I'm not annoyed by it, just amused...


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## pete84 (Aug 2, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> While they do not dictate anything, I believe it has impact the spirit of the forums and driven some long-time members away. In talking with some others, their views are similar to mine -- KKF seems at times to be more about selling that anything else.



I agree. The spirit of community and the wealth of knowledge that brought me here 7 years ago has definitely suffered as a result.

It appears in my livid defense of individual liberties I ignored the elephant in the room. I said that there were no major societal or communal harms resulting from the activities of flippers and profiteers. I was wrong. The major communal harm from this type of activity is actually evidenced by this very thread and the many others like it in the recent months/years. The activity of the unscrupulous is splitting the forum apart and causing discord. 

In the end, I can see why the admins and mods decided there is not much they can really do other than make a separate thread for venting/self-policing by members - there is no clear cut answer.

And my apologies if I offended anyone, we are all entitled to our views and I don't mean to delineate anyone else's opinion as inferior or flawed.


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## never mind (Aug 3, 2019)

Maybe a reasonable, temporary experiment with a ban, free-BST and premium paid-BST’s would help to begin with, and see how it goes in this stage of our KKF community?


First, I feel what Robin has said as a passionate, fair-minded individual (see page 3, #66, ...also at minimum...the economic beast has to work out, so the forum goes on and investors/stake-holders are happy). Thank you for your contribution.


Second, to hatch good solutions, I start by an honest assumption that this is a for-profit organization with owners and many not-for-profit, passionate participants and content creators. At this point, for-profit users are a minority.


It is a private company needing no financial disclosure with a product that is this leading, successful social platform in kitchen knives and beyond.


BST was an icing but now being a thing evolving fast enough to a point that perhaps a new consensus needs to be made about BST.


Third, to work things out in this given situation and time, let’s transition to the next phrase of community with more diverse people and intentions, while maintaining the original spirit as best as we can for the world. It is practical.


How about posting for free on BST for a knife less than ($350)?


Details of premium paid-BST’s: 1. Over that amount, if it is less than $500, you pay $5.00 via paypal or amazon pay to post with more bells & whistles at the BST page, e.g. more colors & badges. No refund. 2. Over that amount, if it is less than $1000, you pay $10.00 to post. 3. Over that amount, if it is less than $1500, you pay $50.00 to post. 4. Over $1500, you pay $100 to post (6.67% of that $1.5k). You help KKF and also knife vendors, see below.


The increase is progressive from free to $100. Don’t complicate it too much. 


Desire for the majority of people to post for free with maximum fun (e.g. below $350), but has a space for pricier knives for a minority of people. That majority will buy/sell average priced knives or pass on really good knives they don’t use anymore at a deep discount price and it is good and fun. KKF heirlooms.


For the price threshold (say $350), it is an imaginary price of a knife, where perhaps an honest middle man like (Larrin or someone with statistic training) can help sampling regular knives being sold/talked about on here and find a mode/median/mean or use other appropriate statistical methods, for a good, reasonable starting price for a fun transaction that will be free to post in BST.


A bonus: any premium paid-BST post of our KKF vendor knife, the vendor like Devin Thomas (a KKF knife-maker/retailer) gets (50%) of that fees-to-post on BST immediately, where KKF owners keep (50%) for administration or whatever costs. If the BST knives are not KKF vendors, 100% of the progressive fees-to-post goes to the administration or for KKF community building expenses.


What is a BST knife ban aforementioned? At the beginning phrase of this temporary experiment, there is a ban of regular flipper knives (flipped items are perhaps a distraction and complication at the start), say a 90-day ban, in order to see that this experiment works out or not. Let’s say 10 most-flipped brands (non-KKF vendor brands).


For example, everyone begins posting on BST with 2 inputs: 1. An item price, and 2. The item from the KKF vendors or not, check one box (once paid to post, an email notifies the vendor of his 50% part of the money and his product being on BST to track it).


What is this for? For the community.


For me, I’m glad there are some good ideas emerged, converged and exchanged in this thread. It’s how many extraordinary problems are solved in communities and the public square.


KKF will likely be a technology company with a social media platform and various KKF community activities. Or someone will. ...How long can one keep it up the old-fashion way? Manufacturing consent? ...It is already very complicated technologically at this point.


I’m sorry that there were some heated arguments. But thank you for the time spent to explain yourself and repeat your good thoughts. It is helpful to get to know one another through dialogues over time in the communities, I believe. Peace


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## Chicagohawkie (Aug 3, 2019)

^ lol! Close the doors and turn off the lights!


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## HRC_64 (Aug 3, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> ^ lol! Close the doors and turn off the lights!



Na, just start a "endangered species" forum for the "flippers" and sandbox its activity stream (from "new posts" )
People can then figure out pretty easily who does and doesn't do what...


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## Chicagohawkie (Aug 3, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Na, just start a "flippers" forum for the "endangered species" and don't update the "new posts" with its activity stream.
> People can then figure out pretty easily who does and doesn't do what...


Once again, who cares. It's always the same miserable usual suspects that start these mindless threads. See it all before in several forums before this.


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## Jville (Aug 3, 2019)

I think the biggest complaint "generally" is the sterilization of not being able to say anything about knives that are seemingly flipped, often quite blatantly. This is a part of free market. An important part of the free market that has been nuetered to sort of encourage or at least help flipping be worse than if there was an opposing force to help lessen or balance it a bit. Of course I'm not suggesting it would eliminate totally, but it would work to lessen the severity some. And I think it would be more effective than what it is credited. People, especially , new people would become perhaps a little savier, and flippers might think a little bit about their prices. If the product is going to sell anyways, as said, why not allow actual free market principles in play. If you think a restaurant, product, etc is a rippoff or bad for whatever reason you are allowed to say so.


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## WildBoar (Aug 3, 2019)

I agree. The inability to post negative comments means new people who do not know enough yet may get taken advantage of. And that is what screws up the community aspect. I see both sides of the debate, and my choice is to ignore those flippers, but I still think it is shi tty that they cannot be called out.


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## Chicagohawkie (Aug 3, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> I agree. The inability to post negative comments means new people who do not know enough yet may get taken advantage of. And that is what screws up the community aspect. I see both sides of the debate, and my choice is to ignore those flippers, but I still think it is shi tty that they cannot be called out.


People call out those who are scammers quite often. Perhaps you should case used car lots or new for that matter, people get roto rooted far worse than here. Love how everyone wants to save the world one knife transaction at a time.


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## labor of love (Aug 3, 2019)

Jville said:


> I think the biggest complaint "generally" is the sterilization of not being able to say anything about knives that are seemingly flipped, often quite blatantly. This is a part of free market. An important part of the free market that has been nuetered to sort of encourage or at least help flipping be worse than if there was an opposing force to help lessen or balance it a bit. Of course I'm not suggesting it would eliminate totally, but it would work to lessen the severity some. And I think it would be more effective than what it is credited. People, especially , new people would become perhaps a little savier, and flippers might think a little bit about their prices. If the product is going to sell anyways, as said, why not allow actual free market principles in play. If you think a restaurant, product, etc is a rippoff or bad for whatever reason you are allowed to say so.


I was shocked that #flippergang came out of the woodworks to chastise an old school member for selling a kato with incorrect finish. On his BST thread. 
Much of the same crowd posts for profit stuff all the time in BST with no chirps from the anti profit people.
Kinda bizarre that flippers will break rules to look out for each other.
This community casts a pretty large tent in hopes of giving everybody their own section for interests, but some interests are really starting to contradict others.


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## WildBoar (Aug 3, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> People call out those who are scammers quite often. Perhaps you should case used car lots or new for that matter, people get roto rooted far worse than here. Love how everyone wants to save the world one knife transaction at a time.


Eh, I don't hang out on used car sales forums... It's back to the 'is this a community of people with a shared interest in knives' or is it something else. I frankly don't give a crap about saving the world, but I also do not enjoy being part of something where a few people try to 'corner the market' by jumping in to buy desirable knives before other members have a chance, and then they turn around and sell them on to those same people for substantially higher prices. Stuff like that rubs me the wrong way, and in everyday life I avoid associating with people like that.


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## Barmoley (Aug 3, 2019)

I didn't want to participate in this anymore because as usual it gone off the deep end. This happens every few months. In any case just one comment, many here feel like they need to protect "new" people from being taken advantage of. It is a noble cause and comes from a good place, but don't you think that any new person that is willing to spend over a thousand dollars on a kitchen knife without knowing anything about it doesn't need our help. Shouldn't we have respect for people and their decision making abilities. People who spend this much either know what they are buying or have enough money that this is not a big deal for them. In either case it is pretty direspectful to treat them like children and try to protect them.


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 3, 2019)

People need protecting free medical for all including illegals. Free collage, give everyone 1K a month for life, tax the hell out of the rich to pay for it. 

Sorry been watching the debates illegal post


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## DitmasPork (Aug 3, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I didn't want to participate in this anymore because as usual it gone off the deep end. This happens every few months. In any case just one comment, many here feel like they need to protect "new" people from being taken advantage of. It is a noble cause and comes from a good place, but don't you think that any new person that is willing to spend over a thousand dollars on a kitchen knife without knowing anything about it doesn't need our help. Shouldn't we have respect for people and their decision making abilities. People who spend this much either know what they are buying or have enough money that this is not a big deal for them. In either case it is pretty direspectful to treat them like children and try to protect them.



Gotta say that I wholeheartedly agree with you. Not into the idea of mollycoddling perceived 'newbies'—they have a brain with which to make a decision. Anyone delving into the secondary market, even for BNIB knives should do a little research on their own, conduct their due diligence. I often see conflicting advice from members.

I'd also like to suggest eliminating the feature allowing comments on BST altogether. If someone has issue with a BST post, bring it up with the mods or start a thread. That could go some way to get people to put away their torches and pitchforks on BST.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 3, 2019)

If you don't believe in "babying people", just let BST get strafed with open-moderation comments...LOL
Thats the open market right there...

But no, we only believe in the open market where the scam artists and undesirables can hide,
and no reviewers of sellers is allowed, no data on transaction history is allowed, etc

Thats not an open market, its a rigged market...


BTW



> Art is another commodity in which speculation and privileged access drive prices, not intrinsic value. In November 2013, hedge fund manager Steven A. Cohen of SAC Capital was selling at auction artworks that he had only recently acquired through private transactions....In reporting the sale, The New York Times notes that, "Ever the trader, Mr. Cohen is also taking advantage of today’s active art market where new collectors will often pay far more for artworks than they are worth."



Once the original newbies become "suckers", the next steip is usually they "suckers" learn the game and become "********"...in short order...But since the game is "greater fool theory" a fresh supply of "suckers" is required and so the cycle repeats itself

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory


You don't protect new people getting "suckered'" out of some kind of weak-willed morality, 
you prevent it because it breeds generartions of douchebags...

And 'protecting' successive generations of new-members from greater-fool-theory scams 
...thus deprives the oxygen for this negative feedback loop and improves cohesiveness of "the community".

....



Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...


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## Barmoley (Aug 3, 2019)

Oh please... seriously have some respect for people. No one is suckering anyone into anything. Where are these newbies that come in and without reading anything, asking any questions, filling out questioner are suckered into spending $1500 into buying a Kato? Does this actually happen or do we just like throwing out hypothetical situations out there? Then magically these same gullible people turn around and become savvy asshats who sucker the next newbie into paying $2500 for the same Kato. I love discussing philosophical dilemmas as much as the next guy, but let's be serious this just doesn't happen. Can we stop blowing this small issue out of all proportions every few months.

By the way I am all for seller and buyer feedback and reviews. Good idea, this would be a great feature. It would be great to have track record for people who sell and buy.


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## Chicagohawkie (Aug 3, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I'd also like to suggest eliminating the feature allowing comments on BST altogether. If someone has issue with a BST post, bring it up with the mods or start a thread.



Good idea! Most of the comments are unneeded to begin with.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 3, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Good idea! Most of the comments are unneeded to begin with.



What do you think of the eBay feature that has seller ratings, etc.?


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## ian (Aug 3, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I'd also like to suggest eliminating the feature allowing comments on BST altogether. If someone has issue with a BST post, bring it up with the mods or start a thread. That could go some way to get people to put away their torches and pitchforks on BST.



I wouldn’t be on board with this. I think it’s really useful to see how interested people are in a knife, and to see their requests for additional info, etc. You can really get a sense that a price is fair if many people comment saying as much too. Otherwise, it can be hard to value a knife, especially if it’s used. It also gives me the confidence to buy something knowing that it’ll resell should it not fit my needs.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 3, 2019)

ian said:


> I wouldn’t be on board with this. I think it’s really useful to see how interested people are in a knife, and to see their requests for additional info, etc. You can really get a sense that a price is fair if many people comment saying as much too. Otherwise, it can be hard to value a knife, especially if it’s used. It also gives me the confidence to buy something knowing that it’ll resell should it not fit my needs.



See your point. Lotta ideas, opinions floating about, pros/cons with all.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 3, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Good idea! Most of the comments are unneeded to begin with.



LOL



> The efficient-market hypothesis (EMH) is a theory in financial economics that states that asset prices fully reflect all available information.



Surely if we stop the spread of information we will make the market efficient !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis


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## Chicagohawkie (Aug 3, 2019)

^ Hope your life improves at some point! You are one miserable curmudgeon. One of the usual suspects!


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## WildBoar (Aug 3, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> ^ Hope your life improves at some point! You are one miserable curmudgeon. One of the usual suspects!


See, if it can be said here, we should be able to say similar things to sellers in BST threads. If you can call people names, etc. not sure why it is not okay there as well.


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## never mind (Aug 3, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> ^ lol! Close the doors and turn off the lights!



Go back to the white house


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## never mind (Aug 3, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Love how everyone wants to save the world one knife transaction at a time.



Love? You say love?? what you do, write, say is love? What kind of love is that?


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## bahamaroot (Aug 4, 2019)

This whole argument that "newbies" are coming in and being suckered into spending $1500 on a knife is a joke. It's seasoned buyers buying from flippers and we all know it. They are buying because they have the money and it's the only way that they will ever get their hands on these rare knives. If there was another way to buy these knives they would but there isn't so they can't. It's buy from a flipper or do without and there are many out there that refuse to do without. And all the pissing and moaning about it will never change that.


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## lemeneid (Aug 4, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> This whole argument that "newbies" are coming in and being suckered into spending $1500 on a knife is a joke. It's seasoned buyers buying from flippers and we all know it. They are buying because they have the money and it's the only way that they will ever get their hands on these rare knives. If there was another way to buy these knives they would but there isn't so they can't. It's buy from a flipper or do without and many out there refuse to do without. And all the pissing and moaning about it will never change that.


actually there are many ways of obtaining unicorns. You just need to search hard enough. You just won’t find those sources on KKF unfortunately. And if you’re a collector with serious cash, it doesn’t matter if a Kato costs $700 from Japan or $1500 from a KKF flipper.


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## inferno (Aug 4, 2019)

after reading this thread i'm now planning on spending all my money on katos and shigs. and then becoming a flipper.


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## ian (Aug 4, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> This whole argument that "newbies" are coming in and being suckered into spending $1500 on a knife is a joke. It's seasoned buyers buying from flippers and we all know it. They are buying because they have the money and it's the only way that they will ever get their hands on these rare knives. If there was another way to buy these knives they would but there isn't so they can't. It's buy from a flipper or do without and there are many out there that refuse to do without. And all the pissing and moaning about it will never change that.



Fair enough, although in the past we’ve also seen some high prices for something like a KS, which a newbie might actually buy.

I think this argument about newbies kind of misses the point, though. Maybe it’s my fault for bringing it up when saying why it would be better to have negative comments in BST threads directly, rather than in a separate thread. But really, the current situation is just weird, and makes no sense!

What’s the point of prohibiting negative comments in BST threads? I’m guessing it’s because the community/admins value sales enough that they don’t want them brought into jeopardy. Personally, I don’t think that would really be a problem, but if you think that’s the case, why do you allow these comments in another thread? It seems like the only point is that most people won’t bother to look at the other thread, and so the BST thread won’t be harmed as much. So, you’re creating this disparity of information between people who look at the flipper thread, and people who don’t, for no good reason. 

Can anyone give a real reason why it’s good to contain the negativity in a separate thread?

Edit: playing devil’s advocate, let me try. 

1) Maybe it creates an air of civility, like “I respect your thread, so I’ll leave it alone and gripe somewhere else.” But then again, you obviously don’t respect the thread in that case. 

2) It allows the OP of the BST thread to not respond to the accusation, in a way that would be suspicious if the criticism was on the thread directly. So, we don’t have as many heated arguments. But then again, don’t you want the person to respond? And if you’re relegating negative comments to a different thread, what happens if someone posts a misleading negative comment? The seller may not even see it, and so can’t contest it! I certainly won’t be checking the “Flipper Alert” thread when I’m selling, so I won’t know if someone dislikes my price.


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## Michi (Aug 4, 2019)

ian said:


> People are upset about people finding deals somehow, and then immediately selling for a significantly higher price.


I don't get this aversion to "flipping". It looks like envy to me: someone buys a knife for X dollars and then sells it for X+Y dollars, and someone else doesn't like that. Why is the seller a "flipper"? Why is this considered somehow objectionable? How long do I need to keep a knife for before someone will concede that I'm not a "flipper"?

Come to think about it, every commercial vendor is a "_serial_ flipper". After all, these people do nothing all day long but buy knives at some price and then try to sell them again as quickly as possible for a higher price. Does that make commercial vendors the absolute worst despicable people of all? Never mind that someone who buys a knife in order to sell it again takes a risk, may make a loss, has to advance the capital, etc.

Get over it: a knife, by definition, is worth what a buyer is willing to pay. Selling a knife isn't some morally reprehensible action. Don't buy a knife if you think it's too expensive. End of story.


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## lemeneid (Aug 4, 2019)

Threads like these are the reason KKF members don't deserve nice stuff and why the forum will die soon enough.

FYI, I've seen more unicorns change hands privately or through other platforms than through KKF. If collectors and "flippers" aren't welcome here, vendors won't give this place a rat's ass as collectors usually get dibs on their nicest stuff anyway. No point paying vendor fees here if no one is going to see your stuff posted here. Its a vicious cycle which will lead to the dearth of this place.


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## Ochazuke (Aug 4, 2019)

Michi said:


> I don't get this aversion to "flipping". It looks like envy to me: someone buys a knife for X dollars and then sells it for X+Y dollars, and someone else doesn't like that. Why is the seller a "flipper"? Why is this considered somehow objectionable? How long do I need to keep a knife for before someone will concede that I'm not a "flipper"?
> 
> Come to think about it, every commercial vendor is a "_serial_ flipper". After all, these people do nothing all day long but buy knives at some price and then try to sell them again as quickly as possible for a higher price. Does that make commercial vendors the absolute worst despicable people of all? Never mind that someone who buys a knife in order to sell it again takes a risk, may make a loss, has to advance the capital, etc.
> 
> Get over it: a knife, by definition, is worth what a buyer is willing to pay. Selling a knife isn't some morally reprehensible action. Don't buy a knife if you think it's too expensive. End of story.


I was going to stay out of it until this comment, but there are many differences in that vendors pay taxes, they directly support the makers and manufacturers, and they provide a stable and reliable source of information (as opposed to random people on the internet). Vendors are at the heart of the industry and the community.

Flippers support themselves. I'm not morally invested in calling flippers evil, but please please don't conflate the actions of vendors with the actions of flippers.


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## Michi (Aug 4, 2019)

Ochazuke said:


> Flippers support themselves. I'm not morally invested in calling flippers evil, but please please don't conflate the actions of vendors with the actions of flippers.


In case you missed it, I was being sarcastic. I am well aware of the fact that vendors add value, take risks, pay taxes, etc.

"Flippers" take risks too. For example, a knife that is expected to rise in value may do the opposite. "Flippers" also pay taxes, at least if they are honest. How many knives does a "flipper" have to sell each month before they become a vendor? I'd say there is a lot of grey in between, and I suspect that there are some vendors who started out as enthusiasts, simply trading more and more actively. Nothing wrong with that.

But the whole flipping thing is moot to me. People buy and sell things. It's how the world works. If I don't like that someone makes a profit on the sale of a knife (professionally or not), I can choose to not support them by not buying from them.


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## lemeneid (Aug 4, 2019)

Ochazuke said:


> I was going to stay out of it until this comment, but there are many differences in that vendors pay taxes, they directly support the makers and manufacturers, and they provide a stable and reliable source of information (as opposed to random people on the internet). Vendors are at the heart of the industry and the community.
> 
> Flippers support themselves. I'm not morally invested in calling flippers evil, but please please don't conflate the actions of vendors with the actions of flippers.


How sure are you that vendors are paying their taxes and filing them legitimately every year? How sure are you they aren't cutting shady deals with the makers or getting kickbacks to support another blacksmith as opposed to another. How would you know if they are buying their nats off buyee for $20 and selling them for $2000. And how would you know the information they are giving to you is truthful and their chain of trust is reliable??


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## ian (Aug 4, 2019)

I don’t think many people are saying that there’s something morally wrong about selling knives for profit, whether you’re a vendor or not. (At least I’m not saying that.) Some people are just wondering whether they want that to be a primary function of the BST forum in their community, which is a legitimate question, whichever side you’re on.

Actually, after reading so many posts I don’t think I even care that much anymore. I’ll still lobby for allowing negative comments in BST, though, since the current rule seems weird.

For all the “threads like this are the reason KKF will die” people, though: “if you don’t like it, don’t buy (er, I mean read) it.”


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## Midsummer (Aug 4, 2019)

Flippers are akin to scalpers. They have inserted themselves into the chain of transaction with the sole purpose of profit. They seem to add no value.

In both cases(flipper and scalper) neither the artist or the consumer of the art is benefitted. In the case of vendors, most would say that they add some value to the transaction. Beyond the increased transactional costs brought by the flipper, there may be some other negative aspects to their actions. By interceding between the artist appointed vendor and the ultimate consumer there is no relationship for returns or other services often thought to apply to that relationship.

On the other side, maybe there is some value in what the flippers do. You could argue that the flipper does get the cash to the vendor quickly. That the flippers push the limits of what will get paid for a knife. I imagine that this allows the legitimate merchant to more easily inflate their own pricing- this of course presumes limited quantities precluding competing vendors.

And flippers also take a risk that the product will not sell or will sell at a loss. While the artist and the vendor have already been made whole.

You could also argue that they bring more product to market. I suspect that guys have scoured all of Japan for old stock that is sitting in some hardware store collecting dust so they can bring it to your table or "vault". I am sure that these vendors are happy to unload some of these items and to not have to be searching for markets such as BST.

What I dislike is only being able to write positive comments in BST threads. That seems to me to be actually favoring flipping. I would rather have all comments or no comments at all. That said BST works for me and has been an asset (I take full blame for my foolish spending- if you don't own it you can't change it).

To answer the inevitable objections to the no comments at all plan, I suggest a standard list of measurements should be included in the listing. A standard group of photos should be included. Periodic bumping of unsold listings should be automated. All other questions could be addressed by pm and the seller may add pertinent information to the listing by editing of the original post.

Some would say, "if it ain't broke don't fix it"- and I would ask myself "do I really give a ****". Have a nice Sunday.


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## Ochazuke (Aug 4, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> How sure are you that vendors are paying their taxes and filing them legitimately every year? How sure are you they aren't cutting shady deals with the makers or getting kickbacks to support another blacksmith as opposed to another. How would you know if they are buying their nats off buyee for $20 and selling them for $2000. And how would you know the information they are giving to you is truthful and their chain of trust is reliable??


Casting aspersions on vendors is a terrible argument tack. Using fear that people maybe are shady isn't a convincing argument and in no way effects my basic premise: vendors, by nature of the way in which they operate, are designed to provide benefit to both manufactures, community, and consumers (not just in selling price). Flippers, while acknowledging that there's a broad spectrum, operate for their own benefit. 

Again, I'm not here to accuse flippers of being bad - everybody does things for their own gain. Just don't pretend like they're the same thing.


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## ian (Aug 4, 2019)

Midsummer said:


> Flippers are akin to scalpers. They have inserted themselves into the chain of transaction with the sole purpose of profit. They seem to add no value.
> 
> In both cases(flipper and scalper) neither the artist or the consumer of the art is benefitted. In the case of vendors, most would say that they add some value to the transaction. Beyond the increased transactional costs brought by the flipper, there may be some other negative aspects to their actions. By interceding between the artist appointed vendor and the ultimate consumer there is no relationship for returns or other services often thought to apply to that relationship.
> 
> ...



I’d argue again that I get a lot of good feedback on the value of a knife from the positive comments people leave. Many times, positive comments push me over the edge to a purchase, and testimonials about the great value of the knife or the quality of the seller are great to have! #allowthemall

(That’s allow them all (the comments) not allow the mall.)


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## HRC_64 (Aug 4, 2019)

Flippers are toxic ... and owning/buying nice stuff isn't the issue at all...

>You must allow us to be FLIPPERS as its the ONLY WAY to avoid: THE BOOGEYMAN


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## nonoyes (Aug 4, 2019)

I enjoy this thread and I'm with the op and others worried about the community fabric, so to speak. 

Okay worried is too strong a word but still.

I am curious how a two-tiered BST by price would work, while as someone suggested sandboxing the >800 USD or whatever from showing up in new posts lists.

If someone travels to Japan and brings back some cool stuff to sell, that's fun. Other types of flipping I find distasteful but it's none of my business, really. Relegate them to their own section and I would find kkf more interesting overall.

Also vote for allowing more substantive comments despite the occasional hiccup where a good knife is cast into doubt.

As it is I don't check BST much in part because if the pollution from BNIB luxury items and because of all the weird cheerleading. I guess it's part of the culture here?

All that said I still appreciate what the mods have accomplished.


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## ian (Aug 4, 2019)

nonoyes said:


> All that said I still appreciate what the mods have accomplished.



+1

After all this griping, maybe we should stop for a moment of silence to appreciate the mods.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 4, 2019)

I dig and get the "community" stuff that comes with KKF. There're a bunch of peeps here that I PM to have convo about knives and stones, even some I don't know have messaged me with offers to borrow stones of test out knives. 

That said. BST is just a platform for secondary market sales where a diverse range of sellers/buyers do business. It's difficult at best to define what "community spirit" means within BST, and impossible to enforce. Many long-time members who're vocally anti-flipper have posted knives to sell on BST for inflated prices (aka market value)—they's be foolish not to, unless wanting to help someone a skint knife enthusiast out.

Many are kvetching about so called "flippers," turning a profit. Put away those torches and pitchforks, "flippers" are impossible to identify without knowing the seller's intentions, provenance of knife, etc. So called "flippers" are also an important part of the BST ecosystem. "Flippers" who are probably the majority of KKF also have a positive impact on the knife market—creating buzz and bringing attention to makers, increasing valuation of knives that people own, etc.

In many respects, BST is a microcosm of our wonderful country. Ideally, BST should embrace diversity, opening its gates to all individuals selling knives, so long as it's done in an ethical manner, following the rules of BST. Makes no sense, complete idiocy to erect a virtual wall forbidding "flippers" from entering BST. The "community" aspect as the dialogue generated by knives on sale. The concept of "community" should have nothing to do with valuation, seller's objectives, profit made—no one's business except between buyer and seller.


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## Chuckles (Aug 4, 2019)

Can we just post ‘above current retail price’ in a thread? Or ACRP or something. It is annoying now that when I see a knife on bst that I like I have to go and find the retailer and check to see if the seller is a hobbyist or a profiteer. It would be nice to know. People who are collectors and not put off by inflated pricing shouldn’t find that too objectionable right? And the community should be able to assume that people selling for profit are not trying to do so through deception but just reflecting market trends.


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## ian (Aug 4, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I dig and get the "community" stuff that comes with KKF. There're a bunch of peeps here that I PM to have convo about knives and stones, even some I don't know have messaged me with offers to borrow stones of test out knives.
> 
> That said. BST is just a platform for secondary market sales where a diverse range of sellers/buyers do business. It's difficult at best to define what "community spirit" means within BST, and impossible to enforce. Many long-time members who're vocally anti-flipper have posted knives to sell on BST for inflated prices (aka market value)—they's be foolish not to, unless wanting to help someone a skint knife enthusiast out.
> 
> ...



Maybe part of the problem here is the labeling of some people as flippers, and others as community members. We must not be divided!

If we rephrased this discussion as a brainstorm about what small modifications could be made to encourage people not to sell for prices too far about current market trends, would it be less contentious? In the interest of changing to this perspective, I propose that we ban from this thread all talk of banning people.

Edit: maybe the above is too limited. More broadly/vaguely, “how can we encourage best practices in BST, both from sellers and buyers?” The current system seems to give the sellers a lot of leeway. Allowing negative comments might swing the balance a bit and encourage sellers not to overprice. After all, if we start making money on this hobby, how will we ever be able to stop? It’s not healthy.


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## M1k3 (Aug 4, 2019)

*popcorn.jpg*


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 4, 2019)

I think a 50 or 100 post minimum to access BST as a seller might deter some of the hit-and-run flippers. Works well on the watch forums. Alternatively a pay-to-play format could also benefit the KKF forum.


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## Matus (Aug 4, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I think a 50 or 100 post minimum to access BST as a seller might deter some of the hit-and-run flippers. Works well on the watch forums. Alternatively a pay-to-play format could also benefit the KKF forum.



We have pretty much those rules. It takes 50 posts or a payed membership to be able to post a thread in BST


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## DitmasPork (Aug 4, 2019)

ian said:


> Maybe part of the problem here is the labeling of some people as flippers, and others as community members. We must not be divided!
> 
> If we rephrased this discussion as a brainstorm about what small modifications could be made to encourage people not to sell for prices too far about current market trends, would it be less contentious? In the interest of changing to this perspective, I propose that we ban from this thread all talk of banning people.
> 
> Edit: maybe the above is too limited. More broadly/vaguely, “how can we encourage best practices in BST, both from sellers and buyers?” The current system seems to give the sellers a lot of leeway. Allowing negative comments might swing the balance a bit and encourage sellers not to overprice. After all, if we start making money on this hobby, how will we ever be able to stop? It’s not healthy.



"Maybe part of the problem here is the labeling of some people as flippers ..." is kinda what I've been saying over the course of my comments. Defining "flipper" is an impossible task. I'm all for transparency on what the product it, i.e. how many times it's been sharpened/thinned, if they are the original owner, listing any flaws. However, I really don't give a **** if the seller bought it for $10 and selling it for $300—that's none of my or anyone else's business.

To your point of "current system seems to give the sellers a lot of leeway ..."—I'd just hate to see "cluster****" of everyone ganging up on a seller ignited by a KKF member's assumption. If there's an issue, report it.

How I make a living is selling, both on the primary and secondary market. A bit part of my job is establishing prices. The beauty of things is that the market tells me if I've over or underpriced what I sell. If someone posts a Kato for 2K that goes unsold, then they've simply misread the market—and shouldn't be ridiculed, admonished or shamed.

Wholeheartedly agree with you that "We must not be divided!"


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 4, 2019)

Matus said:


> We have pretty much those rules. It takes 50 posts or a payed membership to be able to post a thread in BST


If KKF places more emphasis on 'community' how about removing the option to 'buy' into BST.


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## Matus (Aug 4, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> If KKF places more emphasis on 'community' how about removing the option to 'buy' into BST.



That would be something worth considering. But most 'flipping' seems to come from members that have long passed the 50 posts limit.


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## bahamaroot (Aug 4, 2019)

Flipping is such a small part of the B/S/T forum it's hard to believe so many people get so worked up over it. How many threads are active flipping right now?


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## ian (Aug 4, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Flipping is such a small part of the B/S/T forum it's hard to believe so many people get so worked up over it. How many threads are active flipping right now?




I chalk it up to boredom. Got anything else we can fight about?


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## DitmasPork (Aug 4, 2019)

I’ve yet to hear a buyer come forward to express unhappiness on buying from a “flipper.” Do they exist?


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## Elliot (Aug 4, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> I’ve yet to hear a buyer come forward to express unhappiness on buying from a “flipper.” Do they exist?



This is a good point. So, overall, I am incredibly new to the knife game, having bought my first “quality” Japanese knife maybe just more than a year ago. 

As such, the vast majority of my Kato’s, Shigs, old Fujiyama, etc., have been purchased on the secondary market. A few from buddies or other people who were maybe just done with the knife or looking to reposition money to try something else. A few 100% were from flippers. 

Unhappiness isn’t really fair to gauge. I knew the reputations of the sellers, knew they were making money off me and I knew that I could afford to pay to get my hands on that special piece. Since I’m so new, I was not able to acquire Kato’s and Shigs at the old prices before the boom and have been led into the four digit territory for quite a bit of my stuff. 

For my own comfort as a person, I have never listed a knife on BST for more than I paid for it. Will I ever? I can’t say, but it certainly won’t be a regular thing. I use all my knives and currently only have one “BNIB” knife in my house... and that’s because it just came this week. What’s more, it ain’t fancy at all. 

But at the end of the day, every time I said “OK” to paying above market for a knife that’s hard to find or unavailable via typical retail avenues, I knew what I was getting into. 

Have I regretted a couple, buyers remorse and all? Sure.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 4, 2019)

Elliot said:


> Have I regretted a couple, buyers remorse and all? Sure.


Would love to know what they are/were. PM me


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## HRC_64 (Aug 4, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Would love to know what they are/were. PM me...



This is why we need the "entreprenuers" forum (or sub forum)


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## DitmasPork (Aug 4, 2019)

Elliot said:


> This is a good point. So, overall, I am incredibly new to the knife game, having bought my first “quality” Japanese knife maybe just more than a year ago.
> 
> As such, the vast majority of my Kato’s, Shigs, old Fujiyama, etc., have been purchased on the secondary market. A few from buddies or other people who were maybe just done with the knife or looking to reposition money to try something else. A few 100% were from flippers.
> 
> ...



Cheers, good post. I believe this is the first actual buyer's experience I've read in the 176 posts of this thread.


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## Elliot (Aug 4, 2019)

Oh, and, for those that have taken offense to the term "flipper" or see this as a completely derogatory term, I guess a more politically-correct term might be "investor." So, I have never purchased a knife simply because the price was good or because I knew it would appreciate in value over time and, therefore, net me some sort of profit down the line. Of course, we all know there are those that do that. 

If I buy a knife, it's because I want to try it, use it, curious about it, whatever. If I sell a knife, it's because I want to buy a different knife and am trying to use existing knife money. I have never sold a knife (all have been at a "loss," mind you) and then simply put the money in my checking for groceries, gas, mortgage, etc. It's *always* because there's another knife I want. The endless circle.


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## ian (Aug 4, 2019)

Elliot said:


> If I buy a knife, it's because I want to try it, use it, curious about it, whatever. If I sell a knife, it's because I want to buy a different knife and am trying to use existing knife money. I have never sold a knife (all have been at a "loss," mind you) and then simply put the money in my checking for groceries, gas, mortgage, etc. It's *always* because there's another knife I want. The endless circle.



Wait, are you me?


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## JChooMtl (Aug 4, 2019)

But how do you feel about this thread? Or the assumption that because you were new, you must have been taken advantage of?

Personally, i don’t think that was the case, I don’t think you think that was the case, nor do I believe anybody believes that that was the case. But I believe that angle is being weaponized in order to add legitimacy to what is essentially a bogus argument. There are people in this world who need to feel morally superior and to do so, they will sit around observing the actions of others and decide what might be passable for moral outrage if they speak out against it.

Or I am blind to opposing viewpoints, do exactly the same thing, and am everything I despise. And for the record, I think we should be able to comment on BST about outrageous prices or calling out “flippers”. And they in turn should be able to respond and defend their position. Or just say “Get a life, *********.”


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## JChooMtl (Aug 4, 2019)

Holy ****. We can’t say d*****bag in this forum?


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## JChooMtl (Aug 4, 2019)

Nor sh*t


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## Elliot (Aug 4, 2019)

JChooMtl said:


> But how do you feel about this thread? Or the assumption that because you were new, you must have been taken advantage of?
> 
> Personally, i don’t think that was the case, I don’t think you think that was the case, nor do I believe anybody believes that that was the case. But I believe that angle is being weaponized in order to add legitimacy to what is essentially a bogus argument. There are people in this world who need to feel morally superior and to do so, they will sit around observing the actions of others and decide what might be passable for moral outrage if they speak out against it.
> 
> Or I am blind to opposing viewpoints, do exactly the same thing, and am everything I despise. And for the record, I think we should be able to comment on BST about outrageous prices or calling out “flippers”. And they in turn should be able to respond and defend their position. Or just say “Get a life, *********.”



Assuming these questions were directed at me as I mentioned being new... I have no issues with this thread or people thinking I (and people like me) was being taken advantage of. The thoughts of others is not often of importance to me and they’re entitled to their thoughts, as are you, as am I. For me, the dialogue of this forum, and yes, even those I may disagree with, is among its valuable features. I have had my mind changed on things, I have seen my opinions supported and reaffirmed and I have learned an incredible amount. 

As I mentioned very early in this thread, I completely understand the viewpoints of those that don’t like the so-named “flippers.” Sure, it isn’t a great situation. I wish I had the connections they do, but I also wish I had the connections Jon Broida or James from KnS do. 

I truly do see both sides. I wish I had endless cash to buy at any price. I wish people selling were selling at a more “reasonable” up charge. But, who gets to define reasonable in this context anyway? Sure as hell ain’t me—what do I know? 

Sorry if this seems like talking in circles.


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## Elliot (Aug 4, 2019)

And... in some cases, “flipping” is about availability. Take the Hiromoto honyaki as a case study. It’s a $500 knife.

However, on the forum, they’re typically listed for $700, $800 or even more.

Now, there are all kinds of causes to consider.

- Is this the first owner just trying to see a big ROI?
- Was it bought from a “flipper” for $600 and now this person is trying to make a little dough?
- Could it have been bought for $700?
- $800!?!?

So... how did we arrive at the price?

I know people selling knives that are “BNIB” but have been bought and sold multiple times as “bnib.” So... if each of these sellers is trying to make even a little profit, let’s say $30-$50 (keep in mind shipping and PayPal fees here too), it could easily be up $200-300 over “retail” by the third or fourth trade.


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## JChooMtl (Aug 4, 2019)

It was directed at you but it was laughable for me to call you “new” considering your 460 messages to my 21.


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## Elliot (Aug 4, 2019)

JChooMtl said:


> It was directed at you but it was laughable for me to call you “new” considering your 460 messages to my 21.



I’ve been busy.


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## milkbaby (Aug 4, 2019)

What if I paid $1500 for a Kato and then list it for $1200 on BST? If we allow negative comments, are other forumites going to be able to s**t on my post? 

What if somebody posts a Teruyasu Fujiwara knife, am I going to be allowed to post, "These are known to be of highly variable quality and this one looks especially crap, not hardly worth half the asking price"?


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 4, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> I paid $1500 for a Kato and then list it for $1200 on BST?


GLWS


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## HRC_64 (Aug 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> GLWS


LOL


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## bahamaroot (Aug 5, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> actually there are many ways of obtaining unicorns. You just need to search hard enough. You just won’t find those sources on KKF unfortunately. And if you’re a collector with serious cash, it doesn’t matter if a Kato costs $700 from Japan or $1500 from a KKF flipper.


If only it were that simple we'd all have a Kato for $400. It takes a very long time and usually a lot of invested money to forge the kind of relationship you have to have with an overseas retailer or dealer to offer you a unicorn.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 5, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> If only it were that simple we'd all have a Kato for $400. It takes a very long time and usually a lot of invested money to forge the kind of relationship you have to have with an overseas retailer or dealer to offer you a unicorn.


And I think most of us have tried.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 5, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> What if I paid $1500 for a Kato and then list it for $1200 on BST? If we allow negative comments, are other forumites going to be able to s**t on my post?
> 
> What if somebody posts a Teruyasu Fujiwara knife, am I going to be allowed to post, "These are known to be of highly variable quality and this one looks especially crap, not hardly worth half the asking price"?



So... 

1) Example #1: if you buy a couple lemons, what's wrong with selling them for a loss?
2) Example #2: whats wrong will selling a lemon with full disclosure "hey this is a lemon" bid appropriately?

The answer to this always seems to be obvious but its worth asking...


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## bahamaroot (Aug 5, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> What if I paid $1500 for a Kato and then list it for $1200 on BST? If we allow negative comments, are other forumites going to be able to s**t on my post?
> 
> What if somebody posts a Teruyasu Fujiwara knife, am I going to be allowed to post, "These are known to be of highly variable quality and this one looks especially crap, not hardly worth half the asking price"?





HRC_64 said:


> So...
> 
> 1) Example #1: if you buy a couple lemons, what's wrong with selling them for a loss?
> 2) Example #2: whats wrong will selling a lemon with full disclosure "hey this is a lemon" bid appropriately?
> ...


Example #1 - Who said anything about buying a lemon? He's talking about selling for what looks like a flipper price but is a price that is lower than he paid and people might unjustly dog the ad.
Example #2 - What if the knife is not a lemon but in a picture only looks that way to someone so they crap all over the ad driving off buyers?


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## lemeneid (Aug 5, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> If only it were that simple we'd all have a Kato for $400. It takes a very long time and usually a lot of invested money to forge the kind of relationship you have to have with an overseas retailer or dealer to offer you a unicorn.


That’s why I said, you need to put in the hard work and graft to obtain those unicorns. No one starts with that relationship from day one. So if you’re a serious collector, you either put in that work, or pay an inflated price on BST.

No one will ever sell a unicorn for under 1k to a stranger. So if anyone lists their unicorns for inflated prices, they’ve probably worked for it. “Flippers” included.


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## jacko9 (Aug 5, 2019)

I personally only buy knives from businesses because of this "flipper mentality". I refuse to get into the "rare item inflated price" knife buying mode. If it's not available from the vendors I'll wait or buy something else.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 5, 2019)

...


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## ecchef (Aug 5, 2019)

ian said:


> Fair enough, although in the past we’ve also seen some high prices for something like a KS, which a newbie might actually buy.
> 
> I think this argument about newbies kind of misses the point, though. Maybe it’s my fault for bringing it up when saying why it would be better to have negative comments in BST threads directly, rather than in a separate thread. But really, the current situation is just weird, and makes no sense!
> 
> ...



Ian, the main reasons to disallow negative comments is to: 

Prevent personal grudges from being brought up to the detriment of the sale/seller; 
To discourage someone who may have undervalued a sold knife from expressing their 'sour grapes'; 
To mitigate 'steering' a potential buyer to another seller's listing;
To prevent troll and fanboy nonsense.

All of these things have surfaced in the past, and the Administrators & Moderators have yet to find a better solution other than "no negative comments" period.


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## Marek07 (Aug 5, 2019)

This topic comes around every few months. While flipping for profit is definitely not what we want to see here, it's relatively infrequent and usually very obvious. As @Nemo pointed out, we have an existing thread to voice our concerns - mind you, there wasn't a new entry there in the last 14 months. Sometimes there are compelling reasons to make negative comments in BST - and embrace the consequences. I recall a 17 page shitstorm in May last year before it was taken down.

On a personal note, I have bought many items from BST; more than I feel comfortable disclosing. If I've been disappointed, it was with my expectations and not because of what I paid or the description not being accurate. Most of the time, I've had the opportunity to try used items at a decent price point. Have I ever paid too much? Possibly - usually when my desire was stronger than my sensibilities. Have I ever regretted it? Never. On just one occasion I felt that the specs listed were not what was received. This related only to blade length and was not the end of the world. It was still a knife I wanted to try, albeit a tad shorter than what I'd expected.


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## Midsummer (Aug 5, 2019)

ecchef said:


> Ian, the main reasons to disallow negative comments is to:
> 
> Prevent personal grudges from being brought up to the detriment of the sale/seller;
> To discourage someone who may have undervalued a sold knife from expressing their 'sour grapes';
> ...



Admirable goals and so much better attained if no comments at all are allowed..


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## Luftmensch (Aug 5, 2019)

ian said:


> I chalk it up to boredom. Got anything else we can fight about?



Yeah... Now I dislike the like button and want it removed...


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## Luftmensch (Aug 5, 2019)

One passing thought nobody has mentioned yet...

If we are talking about the "endangered species", perhaps the remarkable thing is that it appears the blacksmiths are being not 'greedy'. They can see a market capable of supporting higher prices and yet the retail prices remain lower (albeit with solid growth over the years). Surely large waiting lists and shelf lives similar to a sub-atomic particle are indications that the market would support a higher retail price. Go figure...


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Once again, who cares. It's always the same miserable usual suspects that start these mindless threads. See it all before in several forums before this.



Thanks *********...not sure what your problem is but take it to pm if you have one... and don't bother w contributing to a thread that seems to bother you so much. To everyone else, thanks for your contribution/thoughts.

After staying away a couple days it's been an interesting read. Only one point to add for those that seem to miss the point...i could give a **** about the guy who bought a kato for 400 and decided to now sell for market value...congrats on a wise purchase/hold/sell. I'm mad about the people running a side business buying 3 new katos and flipping them to people who may not know better (screwing the entire community concept all to hell).


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> This whole argument that "newbies" are coming in and being suckered into spending $1500 on a knife is a joke. It's seasoned buyers buying from flippers and we all know it. They are buying because they have the money and it's the only way that they will ever get their hands on these rare knives. If there was another way to buy these knives they would but there isn't so they can't. It's buy from a flipper or do without and there are many out there that refuse to do without. And all the pissing and moaning about it will never change that.



Have to disagree here, seasoned buyers have already tried all these knives and those that like them held on for use... again if they sell later, more power to them.


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> ^ Hope your life improves at some point! You are one miserable curmudgeon. One of the usual suspects!



Oops, forgot this one... somehow you seem to be the only person in this thread that's miserable... having a bad day, week, life? I ***** all the time in hopes of making things better...makes me feel good


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## DitmasPork (Aug 5, 2019)

There's a difference between "want" and "need" with regards to knives. I'm perplexed by the obsession with "fair prices" and abhorrence against seller's making a profit.

If a cook needs a knife for use in the kitchen and values performance, best buy, bang-for-buck, there're options galore in the sub-$500 range. Mazaki, Watanabe, Tsourkan, Hinoura, Wakui, etc.

Anything above $500 is rightly the domain of collectors. No one "needs" a Kato or Shig—they're not worth the money if based on a price-performance ratio. However, Katos and Shigs are worth every penny to a collector that "wants" to have it. If someone "needs" a Kato or Shig, they should be prepared to pay what the going rate is—it's a "sellers market" for them. If a collector can't afford a Kato or Shig, too bad, you're priced out, move on—if they must have it, pay up. I was lucky enough to buy one new when in stock for around $500—couldn't afford and wouldn't buy one these days, I'm priced out.

The company I own (how I've made a living for more than a decade) sells things exclusively to collectors, on both the primary and secondary market. Generally, once a collector has something they desire in their sights, it becomes an obsession to acquire it. All of my collectors are knowledgeable, savvy and shrewd—always looking for good deals or a fair price, though a "fair price" for each collector depends on how badly they desire something and what they can afford. If I were talking with a collector, and a stranger interjected saying "it's over priced," I'd likely escort them out, that is just bad etiquette and an insult to my integrity.

Many collectors value rarity—and more than willing to pay over the odds for it. If Kato produced as many knives as Mazaki, prices would likely be a third of what they are.

With knives on BST, many on this thread have cited Katos priced well over a grand—that's the going rate, "fair market value." My feeling is that any newbie or experience collector will likely understand that they're dealing with the top end of collectible J-knives, swimming with the biggies—and if wise, will do their due diligence researching the knife, of buy from someone they trust, or seek advice from someone they trust. As @lemeneid mentioned, sellers who possess rare knives often had to work hard at acquiring them, hence the premium price.

Personally, I enjoy the diversity of BST. It has everything from great deals on typical workingman's knives, to rare awe inspiring unicorns. I've learned much, and have had much pleasure window shopping unicorns that I can't afford.

Pretty much all my purchases/trades on BST are in the $300–$350 range. Things like the $1.6 Kato chicken knife certainly perks up my day.


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

Sorry, duplicate post...


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> You make a very good point. I appreciate the challenges that the mods face deciphering between someone who wants to sell a new knife that's just not for them vs someone who's profiting from flipping (which is discouraged, but in no way forbidden as per BST rules).
> 
> It's my belief and practice, that "BUYER BEWARE" when shopping on KKF BST, unless you know and trust the seller. Sellers are independents, using caution is common sense. At least on eBay there are "seller rating" where one can get an idea of track record, etc.
> 
> ...



Point somewhat taken but I'm guessing that you actually pay taxes on your profits? You have some type of legit expenses to cover before you make profit, you have some scruples to protect your reputation, yours is not a side game strictly about profit at others expense? Oh and I'm guessing you don't sell too many things at nearly 100 percent profit?


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## ian (Aug 5, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> The company I own (how I've made a living for more than a decade) sells things exclusively to collectors, on both the primary and secondary market. Generally, once a collector has something they desire in their sights, it becomes an obsession to acquire it. All of my collectors are knowledgeable, savvy and shrewd—always looking for good deals or a fair price, though a "fair price" for each collector depends on how badly they desire something and what they can afford. If I were talking with a collector, and a stranger interjected saying "it's over priced," I'd likely escort them out, that is just bad etiquette and an insult to my integrity.



This is a really interesting perspective. 

What kinds of things are you selling, mostly?


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## DitmasPork (Aug 5, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Point somewhat taken but I'm guessing that you actually pay taxes on your profits? You have some type of legit expenses to cover before you make profit, you have some scruples to protect your reputation, yours is not a side game strictly about profit at others expense? Oh and I'm guessing you don't sell too many things at nearly 100 percent profit?



Man, every year I get bloody killed by both State and Federal Taxes, in addition to insurance, rent, marketing, etc. Profits are nowhere near 100% with each thing.

Technically, much sold on KKF BST is taxable, seller is responsible to pay taxes. Generally, knives that sell for above what was originally paid is taxable, especially anything called BNIB—same as antiques, artworks, products on any online platform like eBay, Craig's list, etc.


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Man, every year I get bloody killed by both State and Federal Taxes, in addition to insurance, rent, marketing, etc. Profits are nowhere near 100% with each thing.
> 
> Technically, much sold on KKF BST is taxable, seller is responsible to pay taxes. Generally, knives that sell for above what was originally paid is taxable, especially anything called BNIB—same as antiques, artworks, products on any online platform like eBay, Craig's list, etc.



Technically taxable from people that already prove themselves scum is likely not gonna happen... but you get my point... it's not a fair free market vs those such as Jon, Maxim, James have to compete in...

I'll just say that in 7 pages I've not read one compelling argument why these deals are good for the community. Free market is not even a legit argument no matter how often it is made.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 5, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Technically taxable from people that already prove themselves scum is likely not gonna happen... but you get my point... it's not a fair free market vs those such as Jon, Maxim, James have to compete in...
> 
> I'll just say that in 7 pages I've not read one compelling argument why these deals are good for the community. Free market is not even a legit argument no matter how often it is made.



Regarding "community," suppose it depends on how that's defined—all the so called "flippers" are members of the "community."

I'm such a minuscule part of BST, only bought/traded a handful of time.

I'd be fascinated to hear more from buyers that have bought more than a certain number, especially those buying high ticket items (Katos/Shigs)

And also from sellers.

Would mostly like to hear from vendors on what the impact of BST is on their biz.


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

Chuckles said:


> Can we just post ‘above current retail price’ in a thread? Or ACRP or something. It is annoying now that when I see a knife on bst that I like I have to go and find the retailer and check to see if the seller is a hobbyist or a profiteer. It would be nice to know. People who are collectors and not put off by inflated pricing shouldn’t find that too objectionable right? And the community should be able to assume that people selling for profit are not trying to do so through deception but just reflecting market trends.



Something like this would be helpful...


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## parbaked (Aug 5, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I'll just say that in 7 pages I've not read one compelling argument why these deals are good for the community.



I'll give it a shot:
Most transactions involving overpriced Katos and Shigs result in a satisfied buyer and seller. 
Doing the same transaction on eBay would incur more selling fees and open the opportunity to competition from buyers outside the KKF community. The price to acquire these knives could be even higher outside of KKF BST.

If you consider collectors and enthusiasts to be part of the KKF community, one can argue that they benefit by having access to knives they would never otherwise be able to acquire at a price where the seller has the minimum amount of fees to pass on.


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

There have always been 'overvalued' knives around kkf... those that commanded a higher price for no apparent reason (though many love these knives...thinking tf) but these knives were never sold at markups... I'm talking ancient history to many of you but I'll argue that the community was much stronger.

The first Kato and Shig i ever tried cost nothing but postage. I decided i liked both of these enough to purchase them at retail...then decided i liked other knives more and sold them. THIS WAS A COMMUNITY OF ENTHUSIASTS.

If community means having to spend 2 to 2-1/2x retail just to try a knife then I'm afraid that's the sign of a ****** community and probably signs of major moral decay in our overall society...irrelevant but troubling as well.

Again, if you want to **** people then good for you...do it on Ebay...or crapknivestogo...


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## Carl Kotte (Aug 5, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Regarding "community," suppose it depends on how that's defined—all the so called "flippers" are members of the "community”.


So, this is a comment from the bench, but:
I think this ’depends on how you define it’ card has been played one time too many. It doesn’t exactly contribute anything substantive, and it certainly does not make discussion easier. A discussion about community and flippers can certainly be had without it being a prerequisite that the definitions of ’community’ and ’flipper’ are given in advance. Sure, the terms are vague, but that is not obviously a problem here.
These words, as well as many others of course, have pretty stable meanings. And competence with them is sufficient for understanding them. So, in the absence of evidence to contrary (there is none), I think it is fair to assume that ’community’ and (perhaps, I’m less certain about this) ’flipper’ is used with their conventional meaning.
Sum up: ditch the semantics and go straight to the real matter!


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

As to vendor impact let's say your yearly knife budget is 2k (rather low by some standards here but likely higher than many). That'd be ONE 'bnib' 600 used kato for your 2k (600 is a stab as i haven't shopped for one since they were an overpriced 400 dollar knife imo)...one previously owned blade from kkf bst or 5-6(+) badass new knives from JKI, JNS, KNS or maybe 2-4 customs from a couple kkf makers... impactful, I'd say very much so.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 5, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> So, this is a comment from the bench, but:
> I think this ’depends on how you define it’ card has been played one time too many. It doesn’t exactly contribute anything substantive, and it certainly does not make discussion easier. A discussion about community and flippers can certainly be had without it being a prerequisite that the definitions of ’community’ and ’flipper’ are given in advance. Sure, the terms are vague, but that is not obviously a problem here.
> These words, as well as many others of course, have pretty stable meanings. And competence with them is sufficient for understanding them. So, in the absence of evidence to contrary (there is none), I think it is fair to assume that ’community’ and (perhaps, I’m less certain about this) ’flipper’ is used with their conventional meaning.
> Sum up: ditch the semantics and go straight to the real matter!



Fair enough. 

The real matter is that if the powers that be want to rid BST of "flippers," or knives selling for a profit, then they need to implement rules, and enforcing them. Flippers and flipping is not currently forbidden on BST.

I dig the "community aspect" of KKF, which has been useful and educational for me.

However, KKF is not a democracy, members can express opinions, but don't have a vote or any real power to change BST policy—nor should they.

Personally, I feel that BST is fine as is, if flippers are an annoyance, don't buy from them. Simple.


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Same dumb ****, different day. Who cares!



Sorry... just to point out that you obviously do care which is proven because you posted so many times in this thread...


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## JChooMtl (Aug 5, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> What if I paid $1500 for a Kato and then list it for $1200 on BST? If we allow negative comments, are other forumites going to be able to s**t on my post?
> 
> What if somebody posts a Teruyasu Fujiwara knife, am I going to be allowed to post, "These are known to be of highly variable quality and this one looks especially crap, not hardly worth half the asking price"?



Hi. Not sure if this was directed at me but if it was, I meant the allowing of the bad comments in this way:

I won’t be making any negative (or any) comments in other people’s BST threads because, as it should be clear by now, I couldn’t care less about flippers. But if there are people so bothered by somebody else making a profit or somebody willing to pay more than they are willing to or can afford to, let them knock themselves out. It is called freedom of speech.

What I suspect will happen, is that they will just expose themselves, nobody else will care enough to jump in, and it will just peter out and this subject will die until they find another angle to complain about it. Kind of like that deluded ultra leftist nutjob who accosted the older man wearing a maga hat in Starbucks expecting everybody to join in but it just blew up in her face instead.


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## JChooMtl (Aug 5, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Technically taxable from people that already prove themselves scum is likely not gonna happen... but you get my point... it's not a fair free market vs those such as Jon, Maxim, James have to compete in...
> 
> I'll just say that in 7 pages I've not read one compelling argument why these deals are good for the community. Free market is not even a legit argument no matter how often it is made.



Wow. So now they are “scum”?

Nobody ever said it was good for the community. The guy always in front of my liquor store trying to guilt people for money, I don’t think he is necessarily good for my community. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the right to be there.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 5, 2019)

JChooMtl said:


> I won’t be making any negative (or any) comments in other people’s BST threads because...



because you're post count is too low...



> Joined: Nov 27, 2017
> Messages: 25


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

I don't dispute anyone's right to be here... but you just told a long story about freedom of speech...do i need to point out the hypocrisy here or do you see it? Freedom of speech isn't free if it only applies to those you agree with...though I'm guessing we could find plenty of things to disagree about


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## JChooMtl (Aug 5, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> because you're post count is too low...



I said in my original post that I have been a lurker for the most part. So what is your point?


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## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

He was making a funny...


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## HRC_64 (Aug 5, 2019)

JChooMtl said:


> I said in my original post that I have been a lurker for the most part. So what is your point?



...its not a personal thing, but the fact of somebody not even allowed to post in BST sitting here giving advice about how to set up BST 

...specifically a conversation about how to keep around the longer term members with long track records of making posts and contributing skills/contect (often for free) ... 

Hopefully you're really a sock-puppet account... it would probably be more credible and relevant to the discussion...

That's all.


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## JChooMtl (Aug 5, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I don't dispute anyone's right to be here... but you just told a long story about freedom of speech...do i need to point out the hypocrisy here or do you see it? Freedom of speech isn't free if it only applies to those you agree with...though I'm guessing we could find plenty of things to disagree about



Didn’t you though? When you talk about the “scum” that is ruining the community, what is the endgame? If you can’t live in peace with them, don’t you want them out?

I never questioned your right to speak as you please, by all means, continue to do so as you see fit. But I too, have the same rights to call out what I see as bullsh*t.


----------



## HRC_64 (Aug 5, 2019)

JChooMtl said:


> I too, have the same rights to call out what I see as bullsh*t.



You're contributions to this thread are bull.sh!t...half of them are trash talking profanity or involve "your liquor store" and "pan-handlers".


----------



## HRC_64 (Aug 5, 2019)

Maybe mods should ban peopele from even SEEING 
BST until they have 50 or 100 actual posts contributing 
to the forum?


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## JChooMtl (Aug 5, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> ...its not a personal thing, but the fact of somebody not even allowed to post in BST sitting here giving advice about how to set up BST
> 
> ...specifically a conversation about how to keep around the longer term members with long track records of making posts and contributing skills/contect (often for free) ...
> 
> ...



I love it when people use “that’s all” to end their argument as if to indicate the reason they won’t respond to any subsequent responses is because they have had enough and the other person is just a moron (or mor*n, I’m not sure what will be censored).

You believe this thread is about how to set up BST or how to keep long term members contributing? Or I am spending all this time writing these responses bc I care how BST is set up?

Either you are really, really, REALLY stupid, or you are just being disengenuous in the way that makes me want to retire to a farm and hang out with just animals. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is the latter. That’s all. See what I did there?


----------



## chinacats (Aug 5, 2019)

Yep, you just doubled your post count...


----------



## ian (Aug 5, 2019)

K, thinking the discussion has taken a counterproductive turn.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Aug 5, 2019)

ian said:


> K, thinking the discussion has taken a counterproductive turn.


He started it


----------



## ian (Aug 5, 2019)

Btw, seeing the examples @ecchef included above, and especially seeing a recent negative comment on BST, have made me question my commitment to turning BST into a commenting free-for-all. Now I don't know what to think. Nevertheless, it has been an entertaining 233 posts.


----------



## JChooMtl (Aug 5, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Maybe mods should ban peopele from even SEEING
> BST until they have 50 or 100 actual posts contributing
> to the forum?



But .... I would .... still see these posts.

Holy f**kballs! I take back what I said in my previous post. Definitely the former.


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## JChooMtl (Aug 5, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> You're contributions to this thread are bull.sh!t...half of them are trash talking profanity or involve "your liquor store" and "pan-handlers".



I never used the term pan handler. And if I did, they need knives too.


----------



## HRC_64 (Aug 5, 2019)

JChooMtl said:


> I never used the term pan handler....



...its almost like "quotes" were used..."properly"


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Aug 5, 2019)

I think animals can show more intelligence than humans.  Then again we are just maladjusted monkeys.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Aug 5, 2019)

Keith Sinclair said:


> we are just maladjusted monkeys.


Excuse me, apes.


----------



## bahamaroot (Aug 5, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Excuse me, apes.


Well, some of us.


----------



## ThinMan (Aug 5, 2019)

Fancy monkeys.


----------



## ThinMan (Aug 5, 2019)

With knives.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Aug 5, 2019)

Progressive monkeys


----------



## daveb (Aug 5, 2019)

I wanna be an Orangutan....

Some of this is useful. Some is funny. Some is frustrating A lot is a real yawner. And this one is wrong.



HRC_64 said:


> because you're post count is too low...



Post count matters to initiate a thread in bst. To offer to buy or sell something. Once the thread is up, anyone can comment on it.

As for the rest, the fundamental issue still has not been addressed. If negative commentary is allowed, who determines if it's factual? Who plays the role of the KKF Snopes? Not me! Nor are any other moderators willing. Too much ado about nothing.

It remains that most of the bst activity is someone passing along a 2 - 500 knife that doesn't suit them but may suit another.
It remains that most of the bst activity is positive, with both parties benefiting.
It remains that "flipping" occurs, in a small percentage of the threads, usually one collector to another. If you don't know what you're doing in these waters, you'll probably learn fast cause education is not cheap. But it's not going to kill you either.
And my mantra: It's not flipped until someone buys it.

ECChef is right.


----------



## Barmoley (Aug 5, 2019)

Thanks a lot Dave here I wrote this long post addressing every point in detail and you come here and say basically the same thing in a much more succinct form, thanks a lot! In the famous words of Urkle "I don't have to take this I am going home...."


----------



## Michi (Aug 6, 2019)

Once upon a time, people bought things from classified ads in newspapers. They didn't have a comment feature either…


----------



## daveb (Aug 6, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Thanks a lot Dave here I wrote this long post addressing every point in detail and you come here and say basically the same thing in a much more succinct form, thanks a lot! In the famous words of Urkle "I don't have to take this I am going home...."



I've likely had more practice with this type of thread


----------



## Nemo (Aug 6, 2019)

Michi said:


> Once upon a time, people bought things from classified ads in newspapers. They didn't have a comment feature either…


What's a newspaper? 

[emoji1]


----------



## Michi (Aug 6, 2019)

Nemo said:


> What's a newspaper?


A newspaper is an ingenious device that allows you to access any part of a data stream at will. You can rewind, fast forward, set bookmarks, jump backwards and forwards by an arbitrary amount, or consume the stream in sequential order. Newspapers are read-only (but do permit annotations), and they have no limit on the number of times the information can be read. (There are no problems with wear, so there is no need for wear levelling, such as with SSDs, and the information remains accessible indefinitely, even for centuries; no current server certificate or website is needed.) A newspaper does not require any batteries or internet connection. (It does not even require an initial download). In fact, it works indefinitely without any internal or external source of power. The only thing required for correct operation is a modicum of ambient light. (No additional hardware or reading device is needed.)

A newspaper is organised into informational units known as "pages" (similar to disk blocks). Pages are made from a durable, light-weight, and flexible material (a large part of which is cellulose, which is renewable), and hold a flexible amount of information, up to a limit that can be set by the publisher by selecting the appropriate information density (font size). Pages are very thin, so many of them can be stacked together into layers without noticeably increasing thickness of the overall device. Pages are non-magnetic and immune to high levels of radiation (such as an EMP), which allows them to survive even a nuclear holocaust. If pages are stacked to the extent that their thickness adds up to an appreciable amount (say, half an inch or more), the resulting device is known as a "book" (which is otherwise much like a newspaper, except that the pages are physically held together by stitching or glue along one edge, instead of being merely folded along one side).

Newspapers are transferable, so you can pass the device to a friend, who can consume the data stream without incurring additional license fees or having to create an account first. In fact, the data stream of a newspaper can be consumed in complete anonymity, without the need for a VPN or a Tor network. (Newspaper streams cannot be tracked, there are no cookies, and cross-scripting attacks are impossible.)

Besides being a wonderful device for consuming information (newspapers even support high-resolution colour images, although they do not support audio or video), they have a number of other, sometimes surprising uses. For example, if you find yourself stuck in the wilderness on a cold night, a newspaper can help you start a fire, cover you to protect you against the cold, shield you from rain and, during the hot parts of the day, can be used to provide shade or as a fly swat (or a mosquito swat at dusk). In a true emergency, with the addition of a little bit of salt or stock, a newspaper can even be used to supplement nutrition (although the caloric value is low, so it is used in that role mainly when there is no other readily available source of ballast).

If nature calls, a newspaper can be extremely useful to deal with an unpleasant aspect of being alive (having to consume nutrients and excrete their undesirable contaminants). It also (whether used in such a manner or not) makes for a fine addition to whatever compost and/or fertiliser one wants to apply to one's organically-grown produce. In fact, newspapers are completely recyclable and have a near-zero carbon footprint. Newspaper lends itself as an excellent stropping material after finishing on a 5000-grit (or finer) stone, and a stack of it can be used as a convenient stool to sit on while sharpening (as well as an anti-slip mat to place underneath the stone, and to clean swarf from the stone afterwards).

The advantages of newspaper are too numerous to mention here. (There are many more, such as the use of newspaper for making paper mâché masks, lanterns, filling the voids in over-sized boots or gloves, as cat litter, as sound insulation, as a wound dressing, etc.) Suffice it to say that newspapers are a revolutionary device that will change the world as we know it, to the point of empowering the masses to take control of their own destiny, topple governments, and create a better future for us all…


----------



## Chuckles (Aug 6, 2019)

Is it possible this is really a thread about performance centric KKF members being bummed that it is Katos bringing the big money? I know I am. When it is a knife I am not indifferent to but actually actively dislike that is the big winner of the hype competition it makes me feel like the forum is failing somehow. 

Also,

This thread gives me a lingering thought that Kato San would probably prefer to retire but all the capital is being put into the secondary market instead of going to him. I know the story of a 75 year old man doing all the work himself is romantic and all but when he is sore at the end of the day and he is in bed thinking about the Americans and Europeans not using his knives but selling them to each other for 2k each I wonder what he would contribute to this conversation. 

He probably thinks the same things I do at this hour. ‘How am I not qualified to do anything else?’ And then, ‘My feet hurt.’


----------



## NBrewster (Aug 6, 2019)

As a relatively new user here (and a lurker on BST) I'd say that it's really obvious which knives are getting flipped vs which are not. 

I don't click on shig or kato threads. Even when "reasonably" priced they're far more than I would ever consider spending on a knife. I learned that in the first 2 hours of browsing there. I do look at brands that I know to be reasonably priced and have almost pulled the trigger on a ginga, a DP, and a couple others that seem interesting from the "100 knives to try" thread. 

I haven't read this whole thread because it's full of rants that I don't really care about, but the passion that everyone here feels about the community is part of what makes it great and keeps me - a serious home cook and the owner of a measly 4 gyutos (I know, hardly enough to make a salad) - coming back almost daily to see what's going on.

BST isn't broken, though the flippers can sometimes clog up the first page of BST and that is annoying. I honestly don't think there are any (unwitting) suckers who are casually dropping 1500 bucks on a knife. Just click "next" and dig for the good stuff!


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 6, 2019)

Chuckles said:


> Is it possible this is really a thread about performance centric KKF members being bummed that it is Katos bringing the big money? I know I am. When it is a knife I am not indifferent to but actually actively dislike that is the big winner of the hype competition it makes me feel like the forum is failing somehow.
> 
> Also,
> 
> ...



Cheers. You make some good points.

I'm sure Kato-san is absolutely delighted at the much deserved recognition, status and current secondary market prices realized with his coveted knives. Pure conjecture on my part having never met the guy. Surely preferable to just being lost in the dark pit of obscurity, as someone producing great knives to little fanfare and respect. It's my guess that many ambitious, up-and-coming knife maker have similar aspirations.

For those that can't afford a Kato at current prices, sorry, you missed the boat—I can't afford an apartment in Manhattan, I missed that boat.

"Performance" is just one part of collecting—other reasons for a collector to acquire a knife might be rarity, valuation, provenance, hype, aesthetics, mystique, etc. Why someone buys or what they do with it is irrelevant. If someone buys a rare knife just to sit on it for the future fine, if it's to be used in a busy pro environ that's also fine.

It's like if a "newbie" wine enthusiast drops $3.5k on a 2010 Chateau Petrus for their first bottle—wine snobs might cringe, citing the drinker doesn't posses a palate that's developed or deserving enough for it. If the "newbie" has the funds, and a passion for wine, so be it.

There's no entitlement with great knives. Not everyone that wants a Kato or Shig will ever have one, nor should they. If it's that important to have a Kato, then you gotta beg, borrow, steal, sell the rest of your knives or a kidney, do whatever it takes to land one—welcome to the world of collecting. These days it's sooooo easy to find a superb, unique handmade knife in the $400–$700 price point. Think of Comet, Halcyon Forge, Marko Tsourkan, Shihan, Kippington, Evan Anzenberger—not too late to jump on those fine knives, before they slow down production many decades from now and become the next Katos and Shigs.


----------



## HRC_64 (Aug 6, 2019)

Rumor has it, there are a bunch of Kato's on the summit of Mt Everst...












#douchebaggoals


----------



## inferno (Aug 6, 2019)

_*They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning,
No-one you see, is smarter than he,
And we know Flipper, lives in a world full of wonder,
Flying there-under, under the sea!*_


​


----------



## chinacats (Aug 6, 2019)

NBrewster said:


> I honestly don't think there are any (unwitting) suckers who are casually dropping 1500 bucks on a knife.



I'm not sure what else you'd call them? They're certainly not folks that have been around for any amount of time as they used to sit unsold on jns for long periods while the Shigs were being snapped up...at least the Shigs are made by folks that care what they look like when finished. Only reason these are rare is because they're all being held for investment...yeah, good luck making profit on that 400 dollar knife you spent 1500 on...buy high sell low?


----------



## Barmoley (Aug 6, 2019)

It doesn't work like that. They must be pretty good knives, you can't horde any run of the mill knives and create an exclusive market for them, can't be done. Not commenting if Kato are worth the price, to me they are not worth it, but that's my personal opinion. To me honyaki are not worth the price either, but that has nothing to do with anything. The buyers of these knives are not (unwitting) suckers, they just have their own reasons and value measures. We don't have to agree or even understand them, but we should also not disrespect or save them. Noone is being hurt by this, maybe annoying to some, but noone is being duped or hurt.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 6, 2019)

I understand what you're saying but again I'd suggest at least the following are 'hurt' by this:

Vendors who compete for same knife $

Taxman who gets nothing out of these sales which increases everyone elses tax burden in one way or another.

Ripple effect of pricing on other knives. This effect is felt directly by anyone who buys knives.

Maker who sees none of these profits.

KKF which doesn't get these sellers as vendors but is used as free marketing source by these folks.

List could easily go on by i feel this is a decent start... should i continue?

Bottom line is ****ing the system and ****ing the community...


----------



## dwalker (Aug 6, 2019)

chinacats said:


> ...at least the Shigs are made by folks that care what they look like when finished.




Ha!


----------



## thebradleycrew (Aug 6, 2019)

Some thoughts: like just about anything in life, too much or too little of something can be a bad thing. Balance is tricky. Every action also creates a reaction. The internet has given us this great forum. On KKF there are many good people sharing knowledge, knives, and experiences. There are also trolls, flippers, and other users of said internet and thus this forum. As in life, we should all use good judgement when reacting to things, assuming things, making blanket statements, or calling things out. I respect others opinions on things and know that many differ from my own. The kind moderators who help run this site cannot and should not be responsible for baby sitting the folks around the world using this site. I try and utilize good judgement, make choices for myself and not others, and let the good BE and the occasional bad just BE. They we can all choose what to enjoy and what to pass over and rather than try and control too tightly, we might find enjoyment in just letting go.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 6, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> The buyers of these {things} are not (unwitting) suckers, they just have their own reasons and value measures.



Do you know how many "high IQ" people are captured in that mt everst traffic jam (above 8,000 meters)?
....Bankers, doctors, laywers, industrialists, tech executive...loads of them...


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 6, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I understand what you're saying but again I'd suggest at least the following are 'hurt' by this:
> 
> Vendors who compete for same knife $
> 
> ...





Vendors who compete for same knife $:
*Yeah, sucks, competition is fierce in all businesses because of the internet. That's just a fact of life. *

Taxman who gets nothing out of these sales which increases everyone elses tax burden in one way or another.:
*Knives selling for more than purchase price, or as BNIB is taxable and should be reported to the IRS by the seller—same as if one were selling antiques, artworks for profit on any online platform.*

Ripple effect of pricing on other knives. This effect is felt directly by anyone who buys knives.:
*IMO. The "ripple effect" is a very positive thing! It enables knife makers (and vendors) to charge enough to make a living from knife making. I remember when I thought $200 was crazy money for a chef's knife. 
The "ripple effect" has also created much buzz, bringing well deserved recognition to knife makers. Murray Carter, Bob Kramer, et al have also created a "ripple effect," setting the bar, etc. Though BST is among my fave sites to visit, there're many other places where fine J-knives are sold on the secondary market—KKF BST is a reflection of the current knife market. 
There are still good knives galore available for under-$250. *

Maker who sees none of these profits.:
*Makers shouldn't see any of the profits from secondary market knife sales—not how it works. Should a knife maker reimburse a buyer if it greatly depreciates in value? No.
If a makers knife quadruples in value on an auction, great news for anyone that owns a knife by that maker. *

KKF which doesn't get these sellers as vendors but is used as free marketing source by these folks.:
*Yes. BST is a marketplace, purpose it to offer individuals a selling platform—vendors already have a platform to sell, via internet or brick and mortar space. Why I feel vendors shouldn't be allowed on BST, even to comment, conflict of interest IMO.*

List could easily go on by i feel this is a decent start... should i continue?:

Bottom line is ****ing the system and ****ing the community...:
*I do agree with @Barmoley that "No one is being hurt by this, maybe annoying to some, but no one is being duped or hurt." BST is quite a diverse place, which is part of its beauty—everything from cheap workingman's knives to $2k unicorns. BST is the "community"—all sellers are members of the KKF community.*


----------



## WildBoar (Aug 6, 2019)

Ultimately it really boils down to what behaviors, etc. attract, or drive away, paying members and vendors. Since the site owners need the site to generate enough revenue to cover their costs, salaries/ benefits, etc., they likely pay pretty close attention to the vendor and membership numbers. If certain behaviors drive away ling-paying members or vendors, it will be in their best interests to make changes. If certain behaviors increase the paid membership, or bring in more paying vendors, than they will support/ encourage those behaviors. We all have personal preferences and points of view here, and it is great that so many have voiced them, but the need for action would likely only occur if there was a drop in the site's revenue. That is the reality of it (and I am fine with that).

I have my own notion of what a flipper is, and I avoid that type of person. There will always be another knife to buy, and I don't need to deal with people who operate in a manner where I feel they don't give a crap about anyone and would take advantage of their own mother. Going forward I am going to utilize the 'ignore' feature so I do not see posts from these people.

Now I just need to find a feature that will alert me every time Panda, 'Doom and a few others post, so I do not miss their philosophical musings. Those guys always provide interesting perspectives on topics under debate, and they do not mince words. Hell, I'm happy to see the posts by Chuckles on this thread -- he is another no-BS person.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 6, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Do you know how many "high IQ" people are captured in that mt everst traffic jam (above 8,000 meters)?
> ....Bankers, doctors, laywers, industrialists, tech executive...loads of them...



Just not many mountaineers... and IQ aside these folks certainly have an apparent lack of common sense. You wanna do something special go climb K2 you can realize achievement and solitude...and likely quite a few less dead bodies to negotiate.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 6, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> Ultimately it really boils down to what behaviors, etc. attract, or drive away, paying members and vendors. Since the site owners need the site to generate enough revenue to cover their costs, salaries/ benefits, etc., they likely pay pretty close attention to the vendor and membership numbers. If certain behaviors drive away ling-paying members or vendors, it will be in their best interests to make changes. If certain behaviors increase the paid membership, or bring in more paying vendors, than they will support/ encourage those behaviors. We all have personal preferences and points of view here, and it is great that so many have voiced them, but the need for action would likely only occur if there was a drop in the site's revenue. That is the reality of it (and I am fine with that).
> 
> I have my own notion of what a flipper is, and I avoid that type of person. There will always be another knife to buy, and I don't need to deal with people who operate in a manner where I feel they don't give a crap about anyone and would take advantage of their own mother. Going forward I am going to utilize the 'ignore' feature so I do not see posts from these people.
> 
> Now I just need to find a feature that will alert me every time Panda, 'Doom and a few others post, so I do not miss their philosophical musings. Those guys always provide interesting perspectives on topics under debate, and they do not mince words. Hell, I'm happy to see the posts by Chuckles on this thread -- he is another no-BS person.



Very fine point, i need to start using that feature myself...and big plus one on Panda and Doom's contributions...often highlights in my daily internet dose.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 6, 2019)

I'm kind of puzzled peopel can't see this part that is obvious.

Just one example: No comments in BST posts.

I highlighted this earlier...not because I think the mods will or can implement it. I'm quite aware of all this historical issues and way this can be gamed abused and otherwise make a mess of the seller's BST listing. 

The reason I raised it, is that this is a quick way to point out that BST is in no way a free/fair or efficient market.

That's not throwing shade at the admins or BST, it was simply an effective counter-argument 
to those who want to dress up all the crappy BST behaviour as "muh free market" ("...live with it bro")

Which brings me to my second major point, which is that whenever you see people dressing uo
shady behaviour in "morality" (LOL) you should duck and expect you're about to get sucker-punched.

And that's just what we see next...when people lose the "muh free market" is morality,
they immeditately start trash-talking ("doode you're a loser...you're poor...etc)...

This jus shows us the true colors of people who want to do shady /harmful behaviour...
the morality play about "live free or die" (but please don't call me mean names)...
OMG you cannot possibly call me a FLIPPER...think of muh children....youre so mean...etc

This kind of head-twisting hypocrisy is the sign someting is truly wrong.

What the heck is so DANGEROUS to partitioning the BST forum into a "Above retail" (insert euphasmism here) and "Normal BST" sections?

This is pretty easy and doesn't need alot of moderation.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and this would add alot of transparency.


----------



## JChooMtl (Aug 6, 2019)

^^^ *sighs* .... there is so much strawman going on this post .... *facepalm*


----------



## Barmoley (Aug 6, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> I'm kind of puzzled peopel can't see this part that is obvious.
> 
> Just one example: No comments in BST posts.
> 
> ...



You are absolutely right that BST is not a true free market example. None of the regulated markets are by the very definition. This does not preclude us from treating and discussing them as such. As far as name calling and all that, you've done a fair share of that too, so let's just drop that since none of it should've been done from anyone.

My argument is that the problem that bugs you, even though exists is not a large enough problem to do anything about. The cost benefit analysis just doesn't work in favor of changing anything. The logical jump from a few flippers to moral decline of this community and society as a whole is also a bit of a stretch. Most transactions on BST are fine.

Now, the two potential solutions to the flipper problem are deficient.

1. Allowing negative comments in sale threads.
Just happened to my thread, a well meaning, but misguided member expressed his opinion about my knives and in the process questioned one of the very knowledgeable and experienced members. I don't mean misguided as an insult, but as most of us know even though a choil shot is liked and tells you something about the grind, it tells you very little about how the knife cuts. Moreover, without knowing the thickness of the blade no judgement can be made at all. Now, newer members don't know this, so a disservice was done to both seller and buyers.
2. Splitting forum into normal and above retail.
Sounds interesting until you think about it. Retail is meaningless for knives that are not sold in retail. Old prices are useless. So this suggestion is impossible to implement.

The flipper problem is caused by buyers not sellers in this particular case. You can't as a seller increase prices on a major scale, just too many alternatives.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 6, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Now, the two potential solutions to the flipper problem are deficient.
> 
> 1. Allowing negative comments in sale threads.
> 2. Splitting forum into normal and above retail.



1) As stated earlier, this just highlight BST needs rules (generally)
2) 95% of the problem is trading in a small bunch of brands/names/pricepoints. easy to define, measure, implement. There isn't need for "policing the threads", if all shig/kato, etc are already in the sub-forum...

If you put all the "endangered species" into a single forum (call it what you will), you can regulate the "big game hunters" a bit more closely. This doesn't even mean changing BST rules, simply carving out an area for people to do these trades....Kind of like Euros allowing a "red-light district" but saying no whores in Church. 

You can take this kind of step whilst keeping diversity of the site intact.


----------



## Barmoley (Aug 6, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> 1) As stated earlier, this just highlight BST needs rules (generally)
> 2) 95% of the problem is trading in a small bunch of brands/names/pricepoints. easy to define, measure, implement. There isn't need for "policing the threads", if all shig/kato, etc are already in the sub-forum...
> 
> If you put all the "endangered species" into a single forum (call it what you will), you can regulate the "big game hunters" a bit more closely. This doesn't even mean changing BST rules, simply carving out an area for people to do these trades....Kind of like Euros allowing a "red-light district" but saying no whores in Church.
> ...



1. BST has rules, not all follow these rules, but the rules are there and work well most of the time. There is no need for more rules.
2. There is cost associated with this, who will pay it and for what benefit? The endangered species list is not static. Someone has to put more items on it or remove names from it. Price point doesn’t work as there are legitimately expensive knives that are not flips. Someone needs to police regular BST, to make sure no endangered species are on it. It is expensive and not needed.


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## daveb (Aug 6, 2019)

On or about April 1st I proposed a special, subscription only forum for buying and selling Shigs and Katos as well as others to be named. Initial membership would be 1K to enable international background checks. The subscription would drop to $500/yr for subsequent years. Posts would cost $20/each. 

Only got 3 takers.


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## parbaked (Aug 6, 2019)

If KKF really wants to discourage flipping knives, the powers that be can make it a rule in the BST Guidelines.
Then calling out flippers will be acceptable under the "no negative comments" guidelines just like calling out other infractions such asking for PayPal fees or removing selling price.

Other sites have rules like this on their BST forums:

_*Commercial sales and "Flipping"*
The classifieds are for personal, non-commercial non-profit sales.

Buying and selling items on the forums for the express purpose of making a profit is not allowed. Buying an item to immediately resell at a profit is known as "flipping." People found to be using the forums or private messaging system for this purpose may have their account banned. 

However, items purchased some months or years prior to the sale for private use, the market value for which has changed, can be sold at their current market value. We ask that you please contact a moderator before posting these listings to make sure everything is in order.

Items sold in discount sales, such as Amazon specials, cannot be sold at market value immediately afterwards, as this is definitely flipping._


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## HRC_64 (Aug 6, 2019)

2. You can crowd-source a list of "endangeres species"...make up a list/vet it/consensus etc.
1. Keep the rules of bst and "endangered species" forum ~same as now (no comments,etc)

as for other costs, I'm not sure creating an "extra" foum is that resource intensive for the KKF owners.
see, eg> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forums/kitchen-classifieds.102/

Remember this isn't meant to be a "perfect" idea, just something that is doable
and would make incremental progress (again, not "perfect")


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## daveb (Aug 6, 2019)

@parbaked I don't want to repeat what I've already said on this thread. IMO (mod hat off) you're offering a $20 solution to a 10 cent problem. Alas you're not the only one.

It's not flipped until someone buys it.


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## parbaked (Aug 6, 2019)

daveb said:


> @parbaked I don't want to repeat what I've already said on this thread. IMO (mod hat off) you're offering a $20 solution to a 10 cent problem. Alas you're not the only one.
> 
> It's not flipped until someone buys it.



I don't disagree. If you guys don't think it's a problem, then it's not a problem...I was just proposing a $0.50 solution in case you thought it was a problem.


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## milkbaby (Aug 6, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> My argument is that the problem that bugs you, even though exists is not a large enough problem to do anything about. The cost benefit analysis just doesn't work in favor of changing anything. The logical jump from a few flippers to moral decline of this community and society as a whole is also a bit of a stretch. Most transactions on BST are fine.



^This...

To be frank, it seems like people's feelings of fairness are what is being hurt when they see knives being sold for a certain price on BST. So far, the KKF admins/owners do not see this as very damaging to the community. And I would agree, as I pretty much ignore BST except to look at the pretty pictures of pretty knives. If you think the community is being some how damaged from expensive knives sold on BST, then perhaps you are ignoring the vast number of contributions and discussions on other parts of the forum and maybe should spend more time there rather than wringing your hands over the minor number of flippers on BST.

On a side note, about supporting the community, it appears that quite a few number of people commenting on this thread are not "supporting members" who pay the very minor membership fee at KKF. For all the people worried about the "community" maybe you can also put your money where your mouth is... Just think of all the starving children you can save at just the cost of just pennies a day!


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## chinacats (Aug 7, 2019)

Hey wait, i represent that comment

I'm old and grumpy and stuck in my ways (some would say a cheap hippy though I'm not really all that cheap)... still believe chatting on internet should be free...bbs days.

I like to think i make my contribution in other ways...though I'm sure many would disagree

I tend to purchase new J-knives from forum vendors...legit BNIB

My idea of community doesn't involve money... at least the types of community i take pleasure in... must say that is what I've found here. This is why i find people that essentially prey on this community as such a blemish that can spread like a cancer into other parts of the forum.

FWIW, while I've not sold a knife in some time i always make a point to donate a small portion of my sale back to kkf for the sake of my karma

Oh i do try to help those in need...starving children included...feel it's a great use of funds...wish more people felt the same way.

Cheers


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## Matus (Aug 7, 2019)

daveb said:


> On or about April 1st I proposed a special, subscription only forum for buying and selling Shigs and Katos as well as others to be named. Initial membership would be 1K to enable international background checks. The subscription would drop to $500/yr for subsequent years. Posts would cost $20/each.
> 
> Only got 3 takers.



This is actually a better idea than it may sound at first  Most collectors buy their stuff through galleries or other 3rd parties that source the stuff for them, check the quality, etc. And none of that comes for free - as we have hear here already in this very thread. One would have to work on the fee structure and services a bit, but hey, why not  Plus it would create an unprecedented amount of threads discussing it


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## GorillaGrunt (Aug 7, 2019)

I’ve just been reading along, but an interesting point came up about a page and a half ago. Besides Shig and Kato what else is really being flipped? I’m not asking this rhetorically. I know people use bots to snipe those two from JNS, and I’d love to at least try a Kato at work (probably not a KU or western though!); I remember a bit of this going on during the KS frenzy before the new batch about a year and a half ago, but besides that is there much overlap between users and collectors, i.e. a knife in high demand by chefs that collectors bogart and/or ratchet up the price? Fujiyama, I suppose?

I wanted a Raquin for a while, and finally got one from a member of the community and therefore thanks to the community. Someone here put me in touch with TL, I got my Martells on here, a few sold out J-knives... when I finally get a Dalman it will probably also be through here rather than by being lucky enough to catch it on his site. So there are lots of knives in short supply because there aren’t a ton made and people are buying them, holding on to them, and presumably using them, but when I stopped to think about it everything I couldn’t get my hands on wasn’t listed BNIB on BST for an exorbitant price, either.


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## dwalker (Aug 7, 2019)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Besides Shig and Kato what else is really being flipped? .



Various Sakai honyaki knives are often flipped.


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## Matus (Aug 7, 2019)

dwalker said:


> Various Sakai honyaki knives are often flipped.



This is true. Part of the reason why this goes often under the radar is, that prices for honyaki knives are pretty high from western vendors. So if you get one ordered from Japan for say $700 and sell it for $1000+, then the price is still very comparable to what one would pay from a vendor.


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## dwalker (Aug 7, 2019)

Matus said:


> This is true. Part of the reason why this goes often under the radar is, that prices for honyaki knives are pretty high from western vendors. So if you get one ordered from Japan for say $700 and sell it for $1000+, then the price is still very comparable to what one would pay from a vendor.


Exactly. There is often a very long wait for some of these so you can look at it as a buy it now price.


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## osakajoe (Aug 7, 2019)

I’m going to chime in because I’ve had a few. 

I never look at the thread because of these reasons:
1) I have access to most knives I want here. Will never buy online. 

2)Buying a knife online is the same as buying shoes online. Unless you are buying the same pair, it makes no sense to buy unless you’ve tried them on. 

3) a used knife, IMO, decreases in value 50% once bought. Users can F a knife up by so many ways and can take so much work to fix. OR it’s faulty and they’re passing it off as new and perfect. 

4) it’s a used knife. And most chefs F up knives. 

5) it’s a used knife and should never be expensive.

In closing I want more people calling people out. I just took a quick look at the buy trade thread and could easily call BS on many knives for above reasons.


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## Barmoley (Aug 7, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> I’m going to chime in because I’ve had a few.
> 
> I never look at the thread because of these reasons:
> 1) I have access to most knives I want here. Will never buy online.
> ...



Thank you for your input. You've seen more knives than I'll probably see in my life, so I am not going to pretend to know more about them than you do. A few comments though...

I never look at the thread because of these reasons:
1) I have access to most knives I want here. Will never buy online.

That's great for you, the rest of us don't have direct access to all these knives, so what do we do? We buy knives from all over the world, how do you suggest we try these directly?

2)Buying a knife online is the same as buying shoes online. Unless you are buying the same pair, it makes no sense to buy unless you’ve tried them on.

Absolutely, factually correct and pretty useless as a recommendation, no disrespect meant, but how do we find a knife that works without trying and how do you try without buying?

3) a used knife, IMO, decreases in value 50% once bought. Users can F a knife up by so many ways and can take so much work to fix. OR it’s faulty and they’re passing it off as new and perfect.

50% without qualifications? Any knife, a knife that was used and sharpened in a pro kitchen for 5 years and a knife that a home cook bought and used twice rotating among the other 50 gyutos he has? Or a suji that get used once a year, so 50% off? Users can ruin knives, but it is pretty hard to do for home cooks with a bunch of knives that get used very rarely or maybe not at all. Passing on faulty knives, could happen, but again would be hard to figure out a faulty knife unless it was used a lot. The faults are usually not obvious because if they were most would send the knife right back after they bought it from a retailer or custom maker. Most knives are sold because they don't work for that particular user, because of what you pointed out in 1 and 2.

4) it’s a used knife. And most chefs F up knives.

Many here are not pros and even many pros here have many knives, but sure the knife can be messed up...

5) it’s a used knife and should never be expensive.

If an expensive knife was barely used why would it not be expensive?


You being able to spot BS on many for sale knives.... I don't know, maybe you can spot it with your experience, but I am sure even the sellers can't, so how is it BS? Sellers are not lying to buyers if they themselves don't realize there is a problem.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 7, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> I’m going to chime in because I’ve had a few.
> 
> I never look at the thread because of these reasons:
> 1) I have access to most knives I want here. Will never buy online.
> ...



Cheers! I appreciate your buying sensibilities, which are closely aligned with my own. I don't consider myself a 'collector,' buy all my knives for use in the kitchen, and have never paid over the odds for a used knife—mainly because I never seem to have enough expendable income to do so.

However, I do admire 'collectors' that have acquired impressive collections of coveted and rare knives. I also understand to some degree the mentality and objectives of 'collectors' since I make a living dealing with 'collectors.'

Valuation is a fickle thing, for a 'collector' that really wants a Kato, the value is how much they are willing to pay for it. Simple. Eating at Masa for $400 a person might seem ludicrous to some if viewed within the context of other great NYC sushi joints, but worth every penny to many diners who eat there. Paying more than $1k or a $400 meal at Masa is not wrong, it's just a value system different from your own. The current high prices for knives like Kato/Shig are good for the knife market as a whole, enabling younger knife makers to charge high prices so they can make a living from their craft—a custom honyaki by Evan Antzenberger can be viewed as a bargain compared to a Kato.

Katos are not egalitarian knives, nor should they be.

It's like shopping in Macy's or Bloomingdales—some shoppers gravitate to the floor selling discounted items, while others take the escalator to the top floors with haute couture and higher priced merchandise. FWIW, I'm a discount shopper, not bothered if buying a pair of trousers that's so last year.

Never? A used knife can be expensive if the market allows it to be. Few used knives if any on BST sell for more than 50% off retail—unless undesirable, faulty, or overly sharpened/thinned. If I decide to sell my Kato, in great condition, only touched a 6K stone—would I price it below the $550 I paid when new? Not a chance in hell. I highly doubt anyone else on KKF would sell it below retail. My family's Buddhist and always had a "things are what they are" sensibility.

To your last point regarding "people calling people out," I highly disagree with that. It's simply bad etiquette, and unprofessional, though possibly well intentioned, it puts the seller at a distinct disadvantage from potential misinformation muddying the interaction of a sale. If there is an obvious inaccuracy, best to PM the seller for clarification—if it's a deception that can be substantiated, message one of the mods. I've sadly witnessed KKFers throwing down personal opinions on BST posts, possibly killing a sale, not cool IMO. I trust that anyone buying knives on the secondary market will do their research, etc.


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 7, 2019)

I will buying used knives from OsakaJoe in future. Got any unloved Kato's knocking around?


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## bahamaroot (Aug 7, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I will buying used knives from OsakaJoe in future. Got any unloved Kato's knocking around?


I'll just get him to pick me up knives I can't find. It must be nice to have access to most knives locally.


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## chinacats (Aug 7, 2019)

...yep, just stop by his local walmart for most makers knives from all over Japan

That aside I love his thoughts on bst.


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## osakajoe (Aug 7, 2019)

chinacats said:


> ...yep, just stops by his local walmart for most makers knives from all over Japan
> 
> That aside I love his thoughts on bst.



Drunk post FTW!

I actually don’t have access to a lot of the knives people rave about here. Those tend to be the sellers who’s main focus is export and and selling online in other countries. They are hard to find inside Japan. I saw Kurosaki at a knife event in Kobe this year and he didn’t even have kitchen knives at his booth, only outdoor knives. And he wasn’t even bothering sitting there but had his sales guy at the booth while he walked around talking to his friends. Haven’t touch a kurosaki kitchen knife in a few years. 

Honestly just trying to say I resharpen about 30-50 knives week. These are from home to professionals and from what I see I just don’t see a used knife selling close to what it’s originally worth. Everything from rust, chips, and improper sharpening. The sharpening is what usually is the worst. Most people can’t sharpen properly or at least keep the curvature of their blade correct. This is something i always have to fix and in my opinion is the biggest factor in devaluing the knife. 

On another personal preference, in magnolia wood handles. I know they get weathered and discolored, but is rather it be my sweat and dirt than another hahaha

All in all If someone is willing to buy it I say have at it. Takes two. But don’t mind us all chirping in to call BS here and there


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## captaincaed (Aug 7, 2019)

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but are people mainly upset they can't afford a price that others are willing to pay for something?

There are lots of great knives to choose from. My best-performing gyuto cost $250 new from a relatively high-end retailer. I have more expensive ones, and I've turned down knives that seemed overpriced. You can usually find someone to pay a high price for a reputation. Fighting that is like fighting gravity. 

Sometimes you don't get to date Penelope Cruz, and you have to settle for the LL Bean sweatshirt model. Like in Friday the 13th (2009).


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## chinacats (Aug 7, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but are people mainly upset they can't afford a price that others are willing to pay for something?
> 
> There are lots of great knives to choose from. My best-performing gyuto cost $250 new from a relatively high-end retailer. I have more expensive ones, and I've turned down knives that seemed overpriced. You can usually find someone to pay a high price for a reputation. Fighting that is like fighting gravity.
> 
> Sometimes you don't get to date Penelope Cruz, and you have to settle for the LL Bean sweatshirt model. Like in Friday the 13th (2009).



Being that I'm the op i don't mind explaining again briefly my gripe. 

I've used a few katos and owned a 240 workhorse. I sold it because i preferred watanabe in this class of knife. I have zero desire to own another.

I'm bothered that bst has in fairly recent history become a place where people are not selling their used knives but coming in with multiple bnib knives at much higher than retail price. I believe these folks to be using sketchy (illegal) business practices, driving up market prices, hurting legit vendors, hurting kkf, not paying taxes on retail sales, and taking advantage of those not fortunate enough to have tried these knives at their market value...and then some.

Biggest issue imo is ****ing up a solid community strictly due to greed. At this point i wouldn't give you $100 for a bnib kato.


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## milkbaby (Aug 7, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I'm bothered that bst has in fairly recent history become a place where people are not selling their used knives but coming in with multiple bnib knives at much higher than retail price. I believe these folks to be using sketchy (illegal) business practices, driving up market prices, hurting legit vendors, hurting kkf, not paying taxes on retail sales, and taking advantage of those not fortunate enough to have tried these knives at their market value...and then some.



As other folks and I have said, it's not so bad in reality... here is the current BST that will fit on my screen:






Some of these are BNIB or "BNIB" (i.e. "I cut one apple"), something which always puzzles me as when I was buying knives, one of the first things I would do is use it a bunch as much as possible in the first week or two to see how much I actually liked it. But whatever...

Not sure which ones are at an asking price much higher than retail, but I'd bet it's a tiny minority. Most look like knives people used and some that people collected and are now selling to fund the next addition to the collection.


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## captaincaed (Aug 7, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Being that I'm the op i don't mind explaining again briefly my gripe.
> 
> I've used a few katos and owned a 240 workhorse. I sold it because i preferred watanabe in this class of knife. I have zero desire to own another.
> 
> ...


That's a great summary, thanks. I walked in relatively recently so I'm not sure what it used to be like. I've been a fan of being able to try things that aren't available from retail. I've tried to start at retail if at all possible. Sometimes things just aren't around.

Plus it was an excuse to make a funny F13 joke.


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## chinacats (Aug 8, 2019)

milkbaby said:


> As other folks and I have said, it's not so bad in reality... here is the current BST that will fit on my screen:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wasn't trying to trash bst...overall it's a big and important part of kkf. One specific post led me to start this thread but in general this is a rather new thing. There are only a few doing it but that will just lead to more...reminds me very much of s0real...arealpos...


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## Corradobrit1 (Aug 8, 2019)

chinacats said:


> reminds me very much of s0real...arealpos...


Ahh the archetypal knife flipper from Down Under


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## DitmasPork (Aug 8, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> 1. BST has rules, not all follow these rules, but the rules are there and work well most of the time. There is no need for more rules.
> 2. There is cost associated with this, who will pay it and for what benefit? The endangered species list is not static. Someone has to put more items on it or remove names from it. Price point doesn’t work as there are legitimately expensive knives that are not flips. Someone needs to police regular BST, to make sure no endangered species are on it. It is expensive and not needed.



I apologies for my laziness—but without combing through past comments on this thread, can you explain the general concept of the "endangered species list ," and what parameters are used for determining what's included? Are "endangered species" knives that are no longer in production (i.e. Kikuichi TKC, Watanabe iron clad gyutos); or knives whose valuation has spiked dramatically; or knives that sell far above retail; or knives that are still being made but highly coveted and often out of stock (Jiro); or rare limited edition knives (Nenox blue handle gyuto)?

I ask simply because seeing the high-priced, rare knives are one of my fave things about BST for the following educational reasons:
• Seeing how the big boys buy and sell on BST. Gasping, oohing and aahing at knives selling for astronomical prices instantly, or watching price reductions when buyers are hesitant at a price. Also, gives me context, of where my collection is positioned in the pecking order of other people's collections—my collection probably ranks similar to the Bhutan National football team on the FIFA rankings.
• On BST I get exposure to knives that I'm unlikely to see in my local knife shop. BST is infinitely more interesting to me than the "Show your newest knife buy" thread, perhaps because of the commerce element of BST. The rarer and pricier, the better from a BST window-shopper like me.
• Seeing which knives create the most buzz on BST, and the ensuing relevant conversations.


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## ian (Aug 8, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> BST is infinitely more interesting to me than the "Show your newest knife buy" thread, perhaps because of the commerce element of BST.



It’s the drama! Ain’t no drama in a bought knife.


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## dwalker (Aug 8, 2019)

I am only speaking for myself but others may have similar feelings. When I see a knife being obviously flipped for ridiculous money, I do have an emotional reaction at first. It isn't anger. It is envy or jealousy I think. It's kind of hard to explain, but it's almost like I would like to buy a couple of honyaki knives for a good price, flip one for 2x what I paid and essentially have a free one to use. I could do that if my conscience would allow but it just feels wrong to me. On Ebay it would be different. I'm not here to make money and I've been fortunate to get some great deals off BST. When I sell a knife, I pass on my good fortune to the next person. 

Just to be clear, I don't really care that flipping does not violate any BST rules. I don't really begrudge those that participate. I think the flippers are only hurting themselves in the long run as more people who care about the community aspect of KKF will refuse to do business with them. Like some others, I like to see what's out there on BST and also get a chuckle out of the going prices for some of these knives. That may be easier for me due to having owned both Kato and Shig knives early in my collecting when they were gettable and affordable and not having either one blow my skirt up. I understand the shig thing but I think Kato benefits greatly from a well made hype video but I digress...

Anyhow, I prefer to keep karma on my side and be part of something instead of profiteering off of a group of people that share my passion for this hobby.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 8, 2019)

dwalker said:


> I am only speaking for myself but others may have similar feelings. When I see a knife being obviously flipped for ridiculous money, I do have an emotional reaction at first. It isn't anger. It is envy or jealousy I think. It's kind of hard to explain, but it's almost like I would like to buy a couple of honyaki knives for a good price, flip one for 2x what I paid and essentially have a free one to use. I could do that if my conscience would allow but it just feels wrong to me. On Ebay it would be different. I'm not here to make money and I've been fortunate to get some great deals off BST. When I sell a knife, I pass on my good fortune to the next person.
> 
> Just to be clear, I don't really care that flipping does not violate any BST rules. I don't really begrudge those that participate. I think the flippers are only hurting themselves in the long run as more people who care about the community aspect of KKF will refuse to do business with them. Like some others, I like to see what's out there on BST and also get a chuckle out of the going prices for some of these knives. That may be easier for me due to having owned both Kato and Shig knives early in my collecting when they were gettable and affordable and not having either one blow my skirt up. I understand the shig thing but I think Kato benefits greatly from a well made hype video but I digress...
> 
> Anyhow, I prefer to keep karma on my side and be part of something instead of profiteering off of a group of people that share my passion for this hobby.



Exactly...

1) If you're "broke" (or in over your head financially) flipping ...helps you finance new knives.
2) People who rely on this for liquidity are scared of getting rid of it.
3) All the hate at the "haters" for "being broke" ...is them looking in the mirror

I think this is (one of many reasons) why its such a problem...


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## HRC_64 (Aug 8, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but are people mainly upset they can't afford a price that others are willing to pay for something?



See discussion above..

BST exists, because it allows SELLERS to liquidate assets (invested capital) and avoid book writeoffs (losses/ expenses). This balance sheet optimatzztion is a critical function to providing liquidity into the broader market, and it is this liquidity function is also why its imporant part of the broader community (relevant to retailers, pro craftsman, hobbyist sellers, etc). 

Its not counter intuitive that people can wish to keep this broad function in place, while at the same time modify its operational paramters (rules) to make it healthier and less dysfunctional. Because a well operating BST is in the normal course "functional" and broadly synergistic for the community.


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## bahamaroot (Aug 8, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> See discussion above..
> 
> BST exists, because it allows SELLERS them to liquidate assets (invested capital) and avoid book writeoffs(losses/ expenses). This balance sheet optimatzztion is a critical function to providing liquidity into the broader market, and it is this liquidity unction is also why its imporant part of the broader community (relevant to retailers, pro craftsman, hobbyist sellers, etc).
> 
> Its not counter intuitive that people can wish to keep this broad function in place, while at the same time modify its operational paramters (rules) tomake it healthier and less dysfunctional. Because a well operating BST is in the normal course "functional" and broadly synergistic for the community.


The first thing I think after reading a post like this is "this person takes this **** far too serious". If something like a BST forum causes you this much distress I don't think the forum is the real problem.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 8, 2019)

BST is fine as is. I like it.


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## Chicagohawkie (Aug 8, 2019)

Huff and Puff..... here’s your chance big bad wolves.......


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## HRC_64 (Aug 8, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Huff and Puff..... here’s your chance big bad wolves.......



Na dude....those who need to know, already know.


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## milkbaby (Aug 8, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Huff and Puff..... here’s your chance big bad wolves.......



Okay after today I changed my mind now, off with their heads!


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## DitmasPork (Aug 8, 2019)

Poll
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/poll-current-state-of-kkf-b-s-t.42836/


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## captaincaed (Aug 8, 2019)

I keep thinking that high-end knives are not an essential part of life, mostly a luxury item. I gave my SO a Shun that changed her world. I remember being that excited when I first picked it up. Now I'm just chasing the dragon.


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## captaincaed (Aug 8, 2019)

I agree with Osakajoe that people pay way too much for used ****. Once it's in a nerd's hands, speaking of myself, there's no telling what's happened to it.


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## chinacats (Aug 8, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Huff and Puff..... here’s your chance big bad wolves.......



I thought we agreed that this thread was a waste of your time...but yet you still keep chiming in...you should find a thread you like...


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## Chicagohawkie (Aug 8, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I thought we agreed that this thread was a waste of your time...but yet you still keep chiming in...you should find a thread you like...


What we all thought.


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## chinacats (Aug 8, 2019)

What's w this we ****?

I happen to enjoy this thread...almost as much as i enjoy trashing you for your obvious interest which you've denied multiple times. Guess you just enjoy reading/commenting about things you have no concern with?

Do you actually have a viewpoint on this or just a bad attitude about life in general? Oh sorry, I'm sure it's simply "free market, love it or leave it..."

Peace


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## slickmamba (Aug 9, 2019)

Man this thread is wild. I've been part of several forums with BSTs, and it seem inevitable that big money players comes in that change up the dynamic of trading/selling, and can definitely affect how members interact with the forum/community.


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## DitmasPork (Aug 9, 2019)

JChooMtl said:


> Holy ****. We can’t say d*****bag in this forum?



Lol. Just saw this! It there a thread by the mods on officially banned words? Honest question. I remember getting scolded by a mod years ago for mentioning some midwestern takeout knife dealer.


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## WildBoar (Aug 9, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Lol. Just saw this! It there a thread by the mods on officially banned words? Honest question. I remember getting scolded by a mod years ago for mentioning some midwestern takeout knife dealer.


I'm pretty sure it still blocks their URL.


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## ian (Aug 9, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Lol. Just saw this! It there a thread by the mods on officially banned words? Honest question. I remember getting scolded by a mod years ago for mentioning some midwestern takeout knife dealer.



Yes! They are:

***
****
****
****
****
*****
********
*******
******-******
****-*******

and

Mr. ****-***-******


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## HRC_64 (Aug 9, 2019)

Free markets BTFO


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## DitmasPork (Aug 9, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> I'm pretty sure it still blocks their URL.



Speaking of tech. I'm sure some techie can design a BST app that when someone posts a knife for sale, if it's over-price, it automatically corrects it to 35% below retail. Just like 'auto-correct" for spelling. Shig posted for 1k, will sell for 500. [Said jokingly, as sellers would revolt.]

My Kato WH would sell for $358.


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## Barmoley (Aug 9, 2019)

No techie in the world can design an app that figures out retail price without current retail sales or design an app that can figure out what is overpriced and by how much. This is not a mathematical problem and as such cannot be solved by current computers. You can collect data and make models, etc but at the end of the day some human would have to figure out if it makes sense. Then you still have to find a human to agree to sell for this theoretical price and another to buy..... After this you will have to retrain your models to include more recent sales. At the end you will be no better off than when you started in a meantime wasting a bunch of money.


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## labor of love (Aug 9, 2019)

There’s bluebooks for all sorts of things these days not just vehicles, but records, bikes etc...
It’s not too crazy to imagine a knife bluebook.


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 9, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> No techie in the world can design an app that figures out retail price without current retail sales or design an app that can figure out what is overpriced and by how much. This is not a mathematical problem and as such cannot be solved by current computers. You can collect data and make models, etc but at the end of the day some human would have to figure out if it makes sense. Then you still have to find a human to agree to sell for this theoretical price and another to buy..... After this you will have to retrain your models to include more recent sales. At the end you will be no better off than when you started in a meantime wasting a bunch of money.



Agreed. My post was a joke. One person’s unicorn is another’s donkey. It’s like when someone gets a house valuation, much based on comps, but that model not entirely accurate. 

Some knives are a buyers market, with some it’s a sellers market. Can change at an instant. If Kato announced that he’d been quietly working, and released 2000 gyutos selling for $450—prices of Katos on BST would take a nose dive.


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 9, 2019)

labor of love said:


> There’s bluebooks for all sorts of things these days not just vehicles, but records, bikes etc...
> It’s not too crazy to imagine a knife bluebook.



If someone respected, void of conflicts, puts time and expertise into it, it’ll become an instant reference point for many. IMO

Though it’s such a niche market, that anyone doing a Kitchen Knife Blue Book, would likely be doing it as a labor of love. No pun intended.


----------



## HRC_64 (Aug 9, 2019)

labor of love said:


> There’s bluebooks for all sorts of things these days not just vehicles, but records, bikes etc...
> It’s not too crazy to imagine a knife bluebook.



Agree with this...


----------



## daveb (Aug 9, 2019)

ian said:


> Yes! They are:
> 
> ***
> ****
> ...




The list is way longer than that. Even some of my favorites are censored.

"VG10 is a ***** (female dog) to sharpen."


----------



## ian (Aug 9, 2019)

daveb said:


> The list is way longer than that. Even some of my favorites are censored.
> 
> "VG10 is a ***** (female dog) to sharpen."



Yea, I got tired of writing *’s.

Female dog was on there though.


----------



## dmonterisi (Aug 9, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Lol. Just saw this! It there a thread by the mods on officially banned words? Honest question. I remember getting scolded by a mod years ago for mentioning some midwestern takeout knife dealer.





WildBoar said:


> I'm pretty sure it still blocks their URL.



seriously? can someone share the backstory maybe via PM?


----------



## WildBoar (Aug 9, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> No techie in the world can design an app that figures out retail price without current retail sales or design an app that can figure out what is overpriced and by how much. This is not a mathematical problem and as such cannot be solved by current computers. You can collect data and make models, etc but at the end of the day some human would have to figure out if it makes sense. Then you still have to find a human to agree to sell for this theoretical price and another to buy..... After this you will have to retrain your models to include more recent sales. At the end you will be no better off than when you started in a meantime wasting a bunch of money.


One word: AI

There. Done. See how simple it is?


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 9, 2019)

dmonterisi said:


> seriously? can someone share the backstory maybe via PM?



Let sleeping dogs lie. I'm new enough here to have missed the origins of some of the bad blood held by some.

As Steven Seagal famously said: "I'm just a (home) cook."


----------



## bahamaroot (Aug 9, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> One word: AI


Isn't that most of the members here?


----------



## Barmoley (Aug 9, 2019)

labor of love said:


> There’s bluebooks for all sorts of things these days not just vehicles, but records, bikes etc...
> It’s not too crazy to imagine a knife bluebook.


A genuine question, do people still use blue books? I haven't been able to sell a car or buy a car at blue book since Internet became a thing. I ignore it these days, for cars. Popular cars don't match it, unique, rare cars don't match it. Maybe unpopular common cars, but I guess I haven't been interested in those.


----------



## labor of love (Aug 9, 2019)

I’ve personally used online bluebook prices for negotiating used car prices and used bicycle prices.
I don’t collect records anymore but I have quite a few friends that rely on discogs for figuring out value of rare records


----------



## Edge (Aug 9, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Let sleeping dogs lie. I'm new enough here to have missed the origins of some of the bad blood held by some.
> 
> As Steven Seagal famously said: "I'm just a (home) cook."



I love what that cook can do in that movie.


----------



## Zweber12 (Aug 10, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> If someone respected, void of conflicts, puts time and expertise into it, it’ll become an instant reference point for many. IMO
> 
> Though it’s such a niche market, that anyone doing a Kitchen Knife Blue Book, would likely be doing it as a labor of love. No pun intended.



For Shigs I have a database of over 750 sales, kato only 125. Check my gallery page for occasional stats..


----------



## HRC_64 (Aug 10, 2019)

Zweber12 said:


> For Shigs I have a database of over 750 sales, kato only 125. Check my gallery page for occasional stats..





bahamaroot said:


> The first thing I think after reading a post like this is "this person takes this **** far too serious"...



I love this thread....


----------



## HRC_64 (Aug 10, 2019)

@Zweber12... somebody may soon accuse you of being able to balance a blance sheet


----------



## Zweber12 (Aug 11, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> @Zweber12... somebody may soon accuse you of being able to balance a blance sheet



Probably.. do have an accounting a degree..


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 11, 2019)

Zweber12 said:


> For Shigs I have a database of over 750 sales, kato only 125. Check my gallery page for occasional stats..


 How do 2019 prices compare to 2018, 2017, 2016? Based on your data, what was the year the experienced the steepest hike in secondary market Shig sales?


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## chinacats (Aug 11, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> How do 2019 prices compare to 2018, 2017, 2016? Based on your data, what was the year the experienced the steepest hike in secondary market Shig sales?



You can see foeyourself as he's posted it before... don't think it's all vendor inclusive but decent attempt at tracking things for those that give a ****.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 11, 2019)

One final note for me as i had a bit of time to contemplate these things (a few days in the mountains...)

My conclusion about why this irks me so much is that i grew up understanding that you can often be defined by the company you keep and i don't feel like some of these folks are people I'd feel good about hanging out with even just to drink a ****ing beer... whereas I've always felt in the past like the folks here would be mostly people you would enjoy meeting (and been proven true through many interactions in the outside world).


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 11, 2019)

chinacats said:


> One final note for me as i had a bit of time to contemplate these things (a few days in the mountains...)
> 
> My conclusion about why this irks me so much is that i grew up understanding that you can often be defined by the company you keep and i don't feel like some of these folks are people I'd feel good about hanging out with even just to drink a ****ing beer... whereas I've always felt in the past like the folks here would be mostly people you would enjoy meeting (and been proven true through many interactions in the outside world).



I feel the same way towards people I give time to, unless it's a client, which is work.

With KKF there're 22,453 members, would gladly have drinks with many, would happily cook for a bunch—still there are some that I'm not keen on ever meeting, but would surely do business with on BST if they had a knife I wanted at a price I agreed with.

Just being honest, with such a large, diverse membership, it's not a little club where everyone has the same viewpoints on knives, knife commerce—the commonality is a passion for cooking knives. If in a bar, I wouldn't care if someone I drank with was a Global knife using "flipper" that collects Chelsea Miller knives, so long as they had a good sense of humor, was an interesting person, and knew when it was their turn to buy a round of drinks.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 11, 2019)

Ditmas I'd buy you a beer...

I've blocked the worst offenders (only a couple but most of their posts are bst-- they don't really contribute at all to the forum itself but are always posting new j-knives, hmmm) which will certainly make me happy...still say they're ****ing the community and also pretty sure anyone could easily guess who they are...

Cheers


----------



## DitmasPork (Aug 11, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Ditmas I'd buy you a beer...
> 
> I've blocked the worst offenders (only a couple but most of their posts are bst-- they don't really contribute at all to the forum itself but are always posting new j-knives, hmmm) which will certainly make me happy...still say they're ****ing the community and also pretty sure anyone could easily guess who they are...
> 
> Cheers



I'd buy you a beer too. I know I've said a lot on this thread, often disagreeing with you, but hey, I've learned a lot of viewpoints that I wouldn't have considered. The banter on KKF is part of the fun.


----------



## JoBone (Aug 11, 2019)

There are small dealers who offer services to get hard to find knives. I’m good with that.

Its the bot buyers that irk me. Bot buyers and flippers are an annoyance; they offer nothing and suck money from the rest of us.

You have a knife or two to flip, sure go ahead, it’s all good. But please don’t snag a nice knife under me by a minute than charge me more for the same thing.


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Aug 11, 2019)

JoBone said:


> Its the bot buyers that irk me.


While thats a different subject I totally agree. Would be nice if JNS could implement a fairer system, like a lottery for hard to find/popular pieces, a sales strategy that Bloodroot employs.


----------



## Zweber12 (Aug 11, 2019)

JoBone said:


> There are small dealers who offer services to get hard to find knives. I’m good with that.
> 
> Its the bot buyers that irk me. Bot buyers and flippers are an annoyance; they offer nothing and suck money from the rest of us.
> 
> You have a knife or two to flip, sure go ahead, it’s all good. But please don’t snag a nice knife under me by a minute than charge me more for the same thing.



I still have to find a shred of evidence that bot buyers are out there. If you have any evidence, please DM me, or post here. Until I see any, bot buyers are a fable.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 12, 2019)

Depends on how exactly you define a bot...i don't really pay much attention but there have been threads here about people using software to snag hot items from jns. I think it would be rather naive to think it doesn't happen...in fact you are good w numbers, how do we know you're not a bot...or me?


----------



## Customfan (Aug 12, 2019)

Cyberdyne Systems and $kynet are in control!

Ohhh no!..... The Rise of the JNS buying bots.... ! ;-)

No Gyuto is safe..... hide your unicorns... No one can be trusted......


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Aug 12, 2019)

Customfan said:


> Cybedyne Systems and $kynet are in control!
> 
> Ohhh no!..... The Rise of the JNS buying bots.... ! ;-)
> 
> No Gyuto is safe..... hide your unicorns... No one can be trusted......


Where's that aluminum hat when you need it? The Bots have also taken over sneaker world. Not even a pair of Nike's are safe


----------



## slickmamba (Aug 12, 2019)

Zweber12 said:


> I still have to find a shred of evidence that bot buyers are out there. If you have any evidence, please DM me, or post here. Until I see any, bot buyers are a fable.


You mean in general or just for knives? Cause they are used very heavily for clothes and shoes


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Aug 12, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> I love this thread....



Had a couple beers have lost bids on coins by auto even in final 5 seconds.

Have not bought many knives off bst the five have bought got for way under new price still have a small Carter got years ago and a TF white #1 that people wanted to know it's grind etc. Jumped on it. Nice knife. I have missed some others that's ok.


----------



## JoBone (Aug 12, 2019)

As I think of it, Bot buyers (if they exists) or just good snipers and resellers may not be bad. I am not the type who is going to look at JNS enough to ever score a rare knife. If I can pay someone else the extra they charge, I am good with that. I guess it all depends on how much extra.


----------



## ian (Aug 12, 2019)

JoBone said:


> As I think of it, Bot buyers (if they exists) or just good snipers and resellers may not be bad. I am not the type who is going to look at JNS enough to ever score a rare knife. If I can pay someone else the extra they charge, I am good with that. I guess it all depends on how much extra.



I guess the main point is that you look at KKF more than JNS and you’re willing to pay a fee to have the knife listed here instead of there? Fair enough for you, although I don’t think this necessarily adds up to something good for the knife world. But whatev, bots be bots.


----------



## erbw02 (Mar 9, 2020)

Now the Wall Street journal has picked up on this thread and are writing an article on inflated prices in BST and the health of the knife community 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/would-why-pay-24-000for-a-kitchen-knife-11583416574


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## Dhoff (Mar 9, 2020)

Die thread die.


----------



## M1k3 (Mar 9, 2020)




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## LucasFur (Mar 9, 2020)

Actually no. Posting in a current thread is always favourable to starting a new one. 

Perfectly revelant and informative post in the right place. Thanks Erbw.


----------



## Dhoff (Mar 9, 2020)

LucasFur said:


> Actually no. Posting in a current thread is always favourable to starting a new one.
> 
> Perfectly revelant and informative post in the right place. Thanks Erbw.



I hate the thread, it brings nothing positive. Ironically i keep it more Alive by posting this. 

The poster i have nothing against and the article is likely fine though i cannot read it. Last post in this thread.


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## Michi (Mar 9, 2020)

Dhoff said:


> Ironically i keep it more Alive by posting this.


Don't post then!


----------



## erbw02 (Mar 9, 2020)

LucasFur said:


> Actually no. Posting in a current thread is always favourable to starting a new one.
> 
> Perfectly revelant and informative post in the right place. Thanks Erbw.



Thanks for the support 

But it might have been relevant to check the time stamp of the last post (in this case august last year...) before adding semi-relevant half-jokes to a thread haha


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## chinacats (Mar 9, 2020)

Relevant! Thanks for posting...and i like the thread even more knowing it bothers some people so much...kind of the point of the thread since the rip off artists piss me off


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## DitmasPork (Mar 9, 2020)

erbw02 said:


> Now the Wall Street journal has picked up on this thread and are writing an article on inflated prices in BST and the health of the knife community
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/would-why-pay-24-000for-a-kitchen-knife-11583416574


Wish I could read the article, but the damn fire wall came up!!! Sadly, I don't subscribe to WSJ. Very relevant subject here.


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## M1k3 (Mar 9, 2020)

chinacats said:


> Relevant! Thanks for posting...and i like the thread even more knowing it bothers some people so much...kind of the point of the thread since the rip off artists piss me off



Just don't buy. Then ripoff artists have no market.

"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about."- Oscar Wilde


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## chinacats (Mar 9, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Just don't buy. Then ripoff artists have no market.
> 
> "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about."- Oscar Wilde



Funny but i don't buy...in fact ive owned most of the knives that people get screwed on and found little interest in most...though the right Shig (think old school, thick spine kasumi) is a pretty good knife.

My perfect knife is a dammy Tanaka blue2...though the older ones were better balanced here as well...

On a lighter note i love the fact that someone is doing a kato passaround...likely save a few peeps a bunch of $. Of course the only reason i ever bought a Shig was trying one in a passaround...kato was decent but lost it's place because a Wat kicked it's ass...


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 9, 2020)

I could care less if its used by vendors, I only get annoyed by members trying to up their post count i.e. GLWS.


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## M1k3 (Mar 9, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I could care less if its used by vendors, I only get annoyed by members trying to up their post count i.e. GLWS.



GLWS!


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 9, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> GLWS!


Up that post count here brother, although I'm not selling anything!


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## M1k3 (Mar 9, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Up that post count here brother, although I'm not selling anything!



Don't need to, I'm past the requirement for post count. I'm not selling anything either, unless you're interested in some beach front property in Arizona.


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## M1k3 (Mar 9, 2020)

P.S. when flippers and anti-flippers go at each other, I make popcorn. Sometimes stir the pot.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 9, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> P.S. when flippers and anti-flippers go at each other, I make popcorn. Sometimes stir the pot.


Me too, this thread is a ***** thread so thought I'd contribute. A couple of years ago it was a topic to stop meaningless posts in bst, but it didn't work.


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## chinacats (Mar 9, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> P.S. when flippers and anti-flippers go at each other, I make popcorn. Sometimes stir the pot.



I pack the pot and stir the popcorn...


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## chinacats (Mar 9, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Me too, this thread is a ***** thread so thought I'd contribute. A couple of years ago it was a topic to stop meaningless posts in bst, but it didn't work.



Since i started this thread I'm a bit confused as to what you're referencing re meaningless posts in bst...just to be clear, I was bitching about the ******** who's only contribution to the forum is reselling bnib knives strictly for profit...

It was intended to be a ****** thread...

Edit to add that many of those 'members' were only here long enough to make a bunch of money off new users and then disappear...**** those people


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 9, 2020)

chinacats said:


> Since i started this thread I'm a bit confused as to what you're referencing re meaningless posts in bst...just to be clear, I was bitching about the ******** who's only contribution to the forum is reselling bnib knives strictly for profit...


Nothing against you, just read a lot of complaints so took my turn. I know what you meant and can see why it's not healthy for the site.


----------



## chinacats (Mar 9, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Nothing against you, just read a lot of complaints so took my turn. I know what you meant and can see why it's not healthy for the site.



Cheers


----------



## bahamaroot (Mar 10, 2020)

chinacats said:


> ...many of those 'members' were only here long enough to make a bunch of money off *new users* and then disappear...**** those people


That "new users" claim is such BS. Many of the knives flipped were bought by longtime members and seasoned buyers. I know of several guys that had been around for years that bought knives being flipped because at one time that was the only means of getting one. How many well known members have sold a Kato or Shig for near 1k and more? Most are flipping their older knives or bought from a flipper posting that they are selling for less than they paid.


----------



## chinacats (Mar 10, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> That "new users" claim is such BS. Many of the knives flipped were bought by longtime members and seasoned buyers. I know of several guys that had been around for years that bought knives being flipped because at one time that was the only means of getting one. How many well known members have sold a Kato or Shig for near 1k and more? Most are flipping their older knives or bought from a flipper posting that they are selling for less than they paid.



That claim is about 1% of my statement...take that out if you must (though i believe new users account for a high number) and the rest is still the main point. Not sure why you're so bothered...none of this is ditected at you...or any other buyer...


----------



## bahamaroot (Mar 10, 2020)

chinacats said:


> That claim is about 1% of my statement...take that out (if you must (though i believe new users account for a high number) and the rest is still the main point. Not sure why you're so bothered...none of this is ditected at you...or any other buyer...


I know that wasn't directed at me or anything it's just I've heard this "new users" thing over and over with flipping like all these buyers are victims or something. Most are seasoned users and buyers and know what they're doing. Most newbies won't up 1k for any knife.


----------



## rob (Mar 10, 2020)

Not for me, i haven't sold anything, only bought. So I'm definitely not making a profit.


----------



## ynot1985 (Mar 10, 2020)

Was just in thailand.. knives are not worth flipping.

Better off flipping face masks, toilet paper and hand sanitisers instead


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Mar 10, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> Most newbies won't up 1k for any knife.


Guess this was one of those exceptions
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/ashi-honyaki-santoku.45160/


----------



## TSF415 (Mar 10, 2020)

I’ve come to learn that only the cool kids are allowed to flip... and gymnasts


----------



## bahamaroot (Mar 10, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Guess this was one of those exceptions
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/ashi-honyaki-santoku.45160/


I did say "most"...


----------



## Acidwash (Mar 10, 2020)

Everyone is always mad at flippers,
but what about the flipper that made the knife itself? I mean a little bit of steel doesn’t cost much, and the hunk of wood on the bottom doesn’t either. Just because somebody hits it with a hammer and grinds it does not make it worth hundreds of dollars. Let’s look at where the problem really starts.


----------



## M1k3 (Mar 10, 2020)

Acidwash said:


> Everyone is always mad at flippers,
> but what about the flipper that made the knife itself? I mean a little bit of steel doesn’t cost much, and the hunk of wood on the bottom doesn’t either. Just because somebody hits it with a hammer and grinds it does not make it worth hundreds of dollars. Let’s look at where the problem really starts.



Are we talking 1 man operation, maybe 2 with an apprentice? Or more like Sakai style? Or factory production? Anyway, how much are you willing to get paid, sporadically, to bang on metal while being next to something radiating heat?


----------



## Garner Harrison (Mar 10, 2020)

Acidwash said:


> Everyone is always mad at flippers,
> but what about the flipper that made the knife itself? I mean a little bit of steel doesn’t cost much, and the hunk of wood on the bottom doesn’t either. Just because somebody hits it with a hammer and grinds it does not make it worth hundreds of dollars. Let’s look at where the problem really starts.



If the knife was priced on how many hours were put into making it a good knife from scratch it'd still end up pretty expensive. Like sure there are a lot of knives that goes for crazy prices because of supply and demand which is pretty basic knowledge. 

This point is pretty silly. Nothing has value until we put a value on it


----------



## Acidwash (Mar 10, 2020)

Is was just a joke, since there is so much butt hurt going down in this thread. Probably should have thrown an emoji on it for the literal types. They clearly suffer enough.


----------



## Garner Harrison (Mar 10, 2020)




----------



## M1k3 (Mar 10, 2020)

Garner Harrison said:


>


----------



## TSF415 (Mar 10, 2020)

I’m almost interested to go back and actually read this thread. Almost


----------



## M1k3 (Mar 10, 2020)

TSF415 said:


> I’m almost interested to go back and actually read this thread. Almost



Cliff notes: Flippers bad, or not. Anti-flippers bad, or not. Maybe a few Naokibot Toyomanabe comments. Lot's of popcorn. Many circles made. In the end, a lot of words were said to have stuff stay the same.


----------



## ian (Mar 10, 2020)

Acidwash said:


> Is was just a joke, since there is so much butt hurt going down in this thread. Probably should have thrown an emoji on it for the literal types. They clearly suffer enough.



I thought it was funny.


----------



## Michi (Mar 10, 2020)

Let's have a few hundred more posts about the fact that quite a lot of people around me don't behave the way I think they should behave. It's sooo interesting to talk about that…


----------



## ian (Mar 10, 2020)

Let’s have a hundred more posts about how this thread is flogging a dead horse!  

This is very meta. I like.


----------



## milas555 (Mar 10, 2020)

Hi, I'm new to the forum ...
On B/S/T I see knives that I can't buy from suppliers for years.
And here they are, high price, but they appear! They can be mine! FINALLY!!!
I don't know if this is a chance, but is for me. Quick, because someone else will buy ...

I think new members (like me) are the driving force behind "morally bad" transactions - they give too much money to pseudo-collectors.

Here is a great request for old and experienced enthusiasts: if you see an interesting knife at a high price, do not swear in spirit, just write "justify the high price".

The new member will think twice before buying - he can wait, maybe it would be better to buy another knife (there are so many ;-))
regards


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## Matus (Mar 10, 2020)

Such comments are not allowed in a BST thread, @milas555 , otherwise every other BST thread would be a blood bath. There is a thread named 'flipper alert' (which also gets a lot of hate from many sides, as flippers do not like to be called ... flippers). The whole think with selling for more than actual prices from makers has been a hot topic for a while and I do not see that changing anytime soon. It is most certainly not unique to kitchen knives.


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## milas555 (Mar 10, 2020)

Sorry, I thought it was okay to ask the seller about the price justification if it is high. I didn't mean to offend anyone.


----------



## daveb (Mar 10, 2020)

It's not. BST threads belong to the OP. 

Glad to sort it out here rather than in a BST thread. No worries.


----------



## Pachowder (Mar 10, 2020)

i didn't know there was a flipper alert thread. That should be some fun reading. I must have been doing it all wrong, i lost money on every knife i sold...


----------



## Matus (Mar 10, 2020)

Pachowder said:


> i didn't know there was a flipper alert thread. That should be some fun reading ...



You have no idea


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## milas555 (Mar 10, 2020)

If someone wants to earn, I don't mind.
If someone knowingly gives someone money, no problem.
But why can't you help those who do not know (who unknowingly and unnecessarily overpays)?
I mean, if I buy a knife that doesn't suit me and sell it, I don't want to be a flipper at the beginning ;-(


----------



## Corradobrit1 (Mar 10, 2020)

milas555 said:


> But why can't you help those who do not know (who unknowingly and unnecessarily overpays)?


Thats what the search button is for. Do your homework. You'll quickly know if the prices being asked are market value or someone taking advantage. This is exactly the reason why sellers are required to leave prices on BST listings to maintain a historical record.


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## parbaked (Mar 10, 2020)

One can also question pricing, provenance, condition and any other concerns via PM...


----------



## milas555 (Mar 10, 2020)

Yes I tried and when I was sure that I would buy knife was already sold 
I understand that the new must learn and have reflexes ;-)
I do not understand that the comment "ah, ah - why no one has bought yet?" is acceptable, and the comment "oh, oh I wonder if anyone will buy?" is not allowed.
But I am really happy to be with you and greet ALL


----------



## parbaked (Mar 10, 2020)

milas555 said:


> I do not understand that the comment "ah, ah - why no one has bought yet?" is acceptable, and the comment "oh, oh I wonder if anyone will buy?" is not allowed. ALL



Positive comments are acceptable. "I am surprised this hasn't sold yet" implies that the the item is an attractive purchase.


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## chinacats (Mar 10, 2020)

parbaked said:


> Positive comments are acceptable. "I am surprised this hasn't sold yet" implies that the the item is an attractive purchase.



I'd weigh that on who makes the comment...but more or less valid.


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## WildBoar (Mar 10, 2020)

parbaked said:


> Positive comments are acceptable. "I am surprised this hasn't sold yet" implies that the the item is an attractive purchase.


Perfect! I'll use that whenever I see someone flipping. Thanks!


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## M1k3 (Mar 10, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> Perfect! I'll use that whenever I see someone flipping. Thanks!



GLWS


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## milas555 (Mar 10, 2020)

I know what this means, but it is a price comment (hidden) and allowed. Why is the delicate "I wonder who will buy at this price?" is already angry and unacceptable.
BST regulations do not allow price comments, but not all ?
If it's so good, why this thread? - in Poland it is called "foam beating".


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## Barmoley (Mar 10, 2020)

milas555 said:


> I know what this means, but it is a price comment (hidden) and allowed. Why is the delicate "I wonder who will buy at this price?" is already angry and unacceptable.
> BST regulations do not allow price comments, but not all ?
> If it's so good, why this thread? - in Poland it is called "foam beating".


Because comments about price are an opinion. Negative comments are not allowed in BST, for many reasons, even thought they can be helpful in rare situations, on a whole they are a net negative to all parties. Positive comments are allowed because they provide a service to both parties and in most cases are net positive. New members are at a disadvantage when it comes to buying rare, sought after knives, this is as it should be. Having more knowledge and experience should give one an advantage. New buyers should not be buying very expensive knives unless they know exactly what they want and if they *choose *to still buy for the asking price they can't expect to be taken seriously or protected once they realize they "overpaid".


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 10, 2020)

Personally I always found the comments in bst annoying because it's in the way of purchasing info. I really do not think private messaging is used enough. Research is second nature to me, so maybe I'm being too critical.


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## milas555 (Mar 10, 2020)

It is obvious! I agree to 100% (and I humbly accept it) when it comes to the principles of KKF.
But when it comes to thread ( Ias a reminder "Kkf just a place for knife sale profit?") stopped understanding.


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## Barmoley (Mar 10, 2020)

milas555 said:


> It is obvious! I agree to 100% (and I humbly accept it) when it comes to the principles of KKF.
> But when it comes to thread ( Ias a reminder "Kkf just a place for knife sale profit?") stopped understanding.


Oh, this particular thread is just some people venting their frustration that people are different and have different goals and values, that the world changes, that good old times are gone forever, that all new knives are worse than old knives by the same makers, that knives that are not made anymore used to be much better than what is currently available, that TF is the best or the crappiest knife ever made, that Kato and Shig are not as good as they used to be and even when they used to be good they were not that good and are not worth more than $300-$400, that KS used to be the best knife ever at $250, but is horrible now that it is closer to $500. It is possible that I am combining multiple threads, but you get the idea. 

You have to look at it from the old members' perspective, when this was a small community people shared knives in passarounds, they bought then heavily discounted and sold knives, just so others could try them. Now, that the community is much larger the behavior is different to a degree. You deal with more people, so you get different behaviors it is not a tiny group of like minded people that knew each other well anymore. So you get some bad with the good. The good stuff still goes on, there are deals to be had, there are passarounds, there are people letting others borrow knives and stones. You also get rare occasions when knives were stolen in passarounds or you get a few people who just want to make a quick buck. Overall the community is still healthy and great, my opinion ofcourse.


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## M1k3 (Mar 10, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Oh, this particular thread is just some people venting their frustration that people are different and have different goals and values, that the world changes, that good old times are gone forever, that all new knives are worse than old knives by the same makers, that knives that are not made anymore used to be much better than what is currently available, that TF is the best or the crappiest knife ever made, that Kato and Shig are not as good as they used to be and even when they used to be good they were not that good and are not worth more than $300-$400, that KS used to be the best knife ever at $250, but is horrible now that it is closer to $500. It is possible that I am combining multiple threads, but you get the idea.
> 
> You have to look at it from the old members' perspective, when this was a small community people shared knives in passarounds, they bought then heavily discounted and sold knives, just so others could try them. Now, that the community is much larger the behavior is different to a degree. You deal with more people, so you get different behaviors it is not a tiny group of like minded people that knew each other well anymore. So you get some bad with the good. The good stuff still goes on, there are deals to be had, there are passarounds, there are people letting others borrow knives and stones. You also get rare occasions when knives were stolen in passarounds or you get a few people who just want to make a quick buck. Overall the community is still healthy and great, my opinion ofcourse.



P.S. Toyomanabe


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## daveb (Mar 10, 2020)

milas555 said:


> I know what this means, but it is a price comment (hidden) and allowed. Why is the delicate "I wonder who will buy at this price?" is already angry and unacceptable.
> BST regulations do not allow price comments, but not all ?
> If it's so good, why this thread? - in Poland it is called "foam beating".



Foam beating can be fun and is useful when frothing drinks

If you've not read the bst rules yet, they are located here:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/guidelines-for-b-s-t.23206/

You're welcome to post questions to individual moderators, through the support section or within the forum.


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## milas555 (Mar 10, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Oh, this particular thread is just some people venting their frustration that people are different and have different goals and values, that the world changes, that good old times are gone forever, that all new knives are worse than old knives by the same makers, that knives that are not made anymore used to be much better than what is currently available, that TF is the best or the crappiest knife ever made, that Kato and Shig are not as good as they used to be and even when they used to be good they were not that good and are not worth more than $300-$400, that KS used to be the best knife ever at $250, but is horrible now that it is closer to $500. It is possible that I am combining multiple threads, but you get the idea.
> 
> You have to look at it from the old members' perspective, when this was a small community people shared knives in passarounds, they bought then heavily discounted and sold knives, just so others could try them. Now, that the community is much larger the behavior is different to a degree. You deal with more people, so you get different behaviors it is not a tiny group of like minded people that knew each other well anymore. So you get some bad with the good. The good stuff still goes on, there are deals to be had, there are passarounds, there are people letting others borrow knives and stones. You also get rare occasions when knives were stolen in passarounds or you get a few people who just want to make a quick buck. Overall the community is still healthy and great, my opinion ofcourse.


*I think so too, I hope so.
Greetings to everyone again.*


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## chinacats (Mar 10, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> You have to look at it from the old members' perspective, when this was a small community people shared knives in passarounds, they bought then heavily discounted and sold knives, just so others could try them. Now, that the community is much larger the behavior is different to a degree. You deal with more people, so you get different behaviors it is not a tiny group of like minded people that knew each other well anymore. So you get some bad with the good. The good stuff still goes on, there are deals to be had, there are passarounds, there are people letting others borrow knives and stones. You also get rare occasions when knives were stolen in passarounds or you get a few people who just want to make a quick buck. Overall the community is still healthy and great, my opinion ofcourse.



There were still a shitton of members in the 'old days'...i believe a few bad apples wound up spoiling a bunch of others...and ****ing the community in the process.

As to old knives being better it's just s matter of perspective...old Tanaka dammy was best cutter of 5 or so I've owned...but so damn reactive i couldn't deal w it and sold...new ones are fine (much less reactive) just not the same cutting ability...one man's improvement is another's disappointment (or both in my case w Tanaka). Old Shigs definitely better, new ones feel almost machined...old katos too damn thick but cut well. Old ks and new ks all overpriced due to ****** qc...but insane profile and if you spend the time to fix them they're great cutters.

If you tried old and new it's hard not to compare...and if newbs want to find out for themselves it just takes a bit of effort but you'll likely find knives you really enjoy rather than shelling out a bunch of money because something is 'popular'...how many bought a bnib kato for 1k plus and actually think it's the best damn knife they ever used...if they even used it? Maybe they're better than the old 400 dollar ones but I'm not so interested in trying...mine was outperformed (imo of course) by a similarly priced (maybe 350?) Watanabe...

...I'm just saying...it's knife related though...old phones sucked compared to new ones

I am very happy to see more passarounds and actually think it will help keep ripoffs in check. I was fortunate enough to try Kato, Shig and many others this way before buying (or deciding not to buy)...when i was debating a ks purchase a couple members were kind enough to offer a 'loaner'. I call this community spirit and don't think it needs to die just because there are more members now...

...and things weren't perfect then...i remember getting passarounds that started as fairly new showing up looking like someone's first time sharpening had occurred or knives straight up being ripped off (stolen)...but overall things worked really well...

...I'll add that imo more members is a good thing but older members need to speak up if they'd like the community to stay strong...point out the bs and praise the awesomeness...


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## Matus (Mar 10, 2020)

For what it's worth - there are fora where there are NO comments or replies of any form possible in BST threads. If anyone has a question they must PM it to the seller and he may or may not decide to update the description. But the forum in question is about not too expensive car and there really is nothing to flip, so that is not an issue there.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 10, 2020)

chinacats said:


> There were still a shitton of members in the 'old days'...i believe a few bad apples wound up spoiling a bunch of others...
> 
> As to old knives being better it's just s matter of perspective...old Tanaka dammy was best cutter of 5 or so I've owned...but so damn reactive i couldn't deal w it and sold...new ones are fine (much less reactive) just not the same cutting ability...one man's improvement is another's disappointment. Old Shigs definitely better, new ones feel almost machined...old katos too damn thick but cut well. Old ks and new ks all overpriced due to ****** qc...but insane profile and if you spend the time to fix them they're great cutters.
> 
> ...


 I've never even tried Kato, so I don't know what the big deal is. This coming from a guy that's tried everything else x2.


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## Barmoley (Mar 10, 2020)

chinacats said:


> There were still a shitton of members in the 'old days'...i believe a few bad apples wound up spoiling a bunch of others...
> 
> As to old knives being better it's just s matter of perspective...old Tanaka dammy was best cutter of 5 or so I've owned...but so damn reactive i couldn't deal w it and sold...new ones are fine (much less reactive) just not the same cutting ability...one man's improvement is another's disappointment. Old Shigs definitely better, new ones feel almost machined...old katos too damn thick but cut well. Old ks and new ks all overpriced due to ****** qc...but insane profile and if you spend the time to fix them they're great cutters.
> 
> ...




I was just trying to explain to the new member what this thread is about. New vs old, unless you have both in hand at the same time, better yet multiple examples of both you can't really tell. I know it is absolutely not realistic and not the point, just saying. People tend to romanticize "the good old days", we were all younger, the world seemed brighter and better somehow, not always, but in general.

Now, to derail this thread even more, as is customary to KKF. In general, people get better at tasks the longer they do them. In general, improvements in technology improve processes. We have more steels to use for knives now, we have computer controlled ovens for more precise heat treatments. We have better and more available information on heat treats and steels. We have better grinding and sharpening compounds and tools. We have more knife makers making kitchen knives. We have more people using expensive kitchen knives and giving their feedback to the makers. We have better understanding of which grinds and profiles work for what. Yet older knives are better than new ones¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Some older knives are undoubtedly better than new, but on average we have more and better choices now than ever before. 

My point is, there isn't a problem that needs fixing. The community is fine, it hasn't been ruined by a few bad apples that turned everyone evil. People are people, some good some not so good, the more we take responsibility for our own actions and the less we blame others, the better everyone will be, this applies to buyers, sellers, collectors, users, whatever.... If a knife is too expensive for you, don't buy it, if you are not interested in selling, don't, if you haven't done your research and jumped on an expensive knife, don't cry after. If you took time to do your research and missed a good deal because of it, tough, wait for next time or buy something else.


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## inferno (Mar 10, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Now, to derail this thread even more, as is customary to KKF. In general, people get better at tasks the longer they do them. In general, improvements in technology improve processes. We have more steels to use for knives now, we have computer controlled ovens for more precise heat treatments. We have better and more available information on heat treats and steels. We have better grinding and sharpening compounds and tools. We have more knife makers making kitchen knives. We have more people using expensive kitchen knives and giving their feedback to the makers. We have better understanding of which grinds and profiles work for what. Yet older knives are better than new ones¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Some older knives are undoubtedly better than new, but on average we have more and better choices now than ever before.



no this is completely false. everything was better in the good old days. 
steel was harder, steel was tougher, shigs were 300. never rusted. and the damascus was better.


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## M1k3 (Mar 10, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> I was just trying to explain to the new member what this thread is about. New vs old, unless you have both in hand at the same time, better yet multiple examples of both you can't really tell. I know it is absolutely not realistic and not the point, just saying. People tend to romanticize "the good old days", we were all younger, the world seemed brighter and better somehow, not always, but in general.
> 
> Now, to derail this thread even more, as is customary to KKF. In general, people get better at tasks the longer they do them. In general, improvements in technology improve processes. We have more steels to use for knives now, we have computer controlled ovens for more precise heat treatments. We have better and more available information on heat treats and steels. We have better grinding and sharpening compounds and tools. We have more knife makers making kitchen knives. We have more people using expensive kitchen knives and giving their feedback to the makers. We have better understanding of which grinds and profiles work for what. Yet older knives are better than new ones¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Some older knives are undoubtedly better than new, but on average we have more and better choices now than ever before.
> 
> My point is, there isn't a problem that needs fixing. The community is fine, it hasn't been ruined by a few bad apples that turned everyone evil. People are people, some good some not so good, the more we take responsibility for our own actions and the less we blame others, the better everyone will be, this applies to buyers, sellers, collectors, users, whatever.... If a knife is too expensive for you, don't buy it, if you are not interested in selling, don't, if you haven't done your research and jumped on an expensive knife, don't cry after. If you took time to do your research and missed a good deal because of it, tough, wait for next time or buy something else.



Maybe not necessarily older is better. But some makers/brands change over time. Like Takeda. Where'd the wide bevel go? Or the KS. And so on. I think older isn't necessarily better. Just depends on what it is. 

Like Radio Shack. The old Radio Shack was an electronics nerds store. Then they pushed cell phones and made hobby electronics an afterthought.


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## TSF415 (Mar 10, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> I was just trying to explain to the new member what this thread is about. New vs old, unless you have both in hand at the same time, better yet multiple examples of both you can't really tell. I know it is absolutely not realistic and not the point, just saying. People tend to romanticize "the good old days", we were all younger, the world seemed brighter and better somehow, not always, but in general.
> 
> Now, to derail this thread even more, as is customary to KKF. In general, people get better at tasks the longer they do them. In general, improvements in technology improve processes. We have more steels to use for knives now, we have computer controlled ovens for more precise heat treatments. We have better and more available information on heat treats and steels. We have better grinding and sharpening compounds and tools. We have more knife makers making kitchen knives. We have more people using expensive kitchen knives and giving their feedback to the makers. We have better understanding of which grinds and profiles work for what. Yet older knives are better than new ones¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Some older knives are undoubtedly better than new, but on average we have more and better choices now than ever before.
> 
> My point is, there isn't a problem that needs fixing. The community is fine, it hasn't been ruined by a few bad apples that turned everyone evil. People are people, some good some not so good, the more we take responsibility for our own actions and the less we blame others, the better everyone will be, this applies to buyers, sellers, collectors, users, whatever.... If a knife is too expensive for you, don't buy it, if you are not interested in selling, don't, if you haven't done your research and jumped on an expensive knife, don't cry after. If you took time to do your research and missed a good deal because of it, tough, wait for next time or buy something else.



You just ruined my want for some popcorn. I’m going to go eat something healthy like a carrot stick now.

Very well said


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## inferno (Mar 10, 2020)

back in the good old days they didn't have carrot sticks, so why should you TSF415??? they had popcorns. and they were better then, i tell ya!


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## WildBoar (Mar 10, 2020)

Pffft. In the good old days cutting boards were made out of stone. And so were the knives.


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## inferno (Mar 10, 2020)

and glass!


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## TSF415 (Mar 10, 2020)

inferno said:


> back in the good old days they didn't have carrot sticks, so why should you TSF415??? they had popcorns. and they were better then, i tell ya!


You’re right. Anyone have some vintage popcorn they forgot in a cupboard somewhere that I can buy for 5x the price?

ok I’m going to stop now because I’m not really on either side and I’m just trying to stir the pot but now I’m even lost with what pot I’m stirring.


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## milkbaby (Mar 10, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> Pffft. In the good old days cutting boards were made out of stone. And so were the knives.



LOL post of the day


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## daveb (Mar 10, 2020)

In the good old days, I wasn't nearly so old....


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## Bodine (Mar 10, 2020)

I've been enjoying this discussion, even though it has nothing to do with me.
I collect nothing, except money, I may be a minimalist, but what I have, is nice.
I read this site daily; ok more than that, as a method of learning about knives I will not eventually buy.
All I can say about flippers, is that it seems like a lot of work for the percentage gained. I am happy to place my money in holdings that accrue nicely without having to lift a finger to do so. This makes me think it is an ego thing if you follow my drift.
But it makes no difference to me, I really enjoy watching the for sale section every day, I dont know what I would do if I wanted to buy a piece, I have no PayPal account.
My best to you all.


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## inferno (Mar 10, 2020)

the only real money is gold. and has been for like 3000 years. get gold.


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## Gregmega (Mar 10, 2020)

Hey guys what’re y’all taking about in here 


Oh wait nvrmnd [emoji1322]


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## bahamaroot (Mar 12, 2020)

Where is that dead horse anyway...


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## esoo (Mar 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> the only real money is gold. and has been for like 3000 years. get gold.



HRC is too low...


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## wind88 (Mar 12, 2020)

esoo said:


> HRC is too low...


Easier to polish tho


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## esoo (Mar 12, 2020)

wind88 said:


> Easier to polish tho



Workhorse grinds get quite heavy though...


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## crockerculinary (Mar 12, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> Pffft. In the good old days cutting boards were made out of stone. And so were the knives.


I ONLY use stone knives. It’s just so much more... pure, y’know?


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## lemeneid (Mar 13, 2020)

Geez, if you thought BST was bad. You should see the flipping going around in other hobby forums. Case in point, Supreme  just seven words which make you the biggest ********* on the planet but people still lap that sh1t up.

It’s not the end of the world if you can’t afford a knife anymore but people are making mountain out of molehills here.


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## pjotr (Mar 13, 2020)

Yo, why the hate man? How else am I gonna catch the drip from my fresh outfits


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