# I just wanna say



## gaijin (Feb 1, 2017)

I just wanna say that learning to sharpen a japanese knife on a whetstone is really really fun. It takes a little while, but is pure meditation. Working with your hands Getting results. Mindfulness. And you end up with a screaming sharp edge *looking at bandaid on thumb*


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 1, 2017)

Some say a knife has to taste your blood to be yours.
Some say it has to taste your stone.
Some say it has to taste both, some say one of them is enough.
You played it really safe.



....

Tried some crox yet?


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## gaijin (Feb 1, 2017)

Crox?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 1, 2017)

Chromium oxide paste  stropping compound usually used for razors... and it does just the same to knives made of razor-suitable steels


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## gaijin (Feb 1, 2017)

Well, I did finish the sharpening by using a preloaded strop... and it got sharp. Really sharp.


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## Ruso (Feb 1, 2017)

Sniff Sniff, Corx  :tease:
Sharpening is really enjoyable experience. And the end result makes this activity quite meaningful.


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## miggus (Feb 3, 2017)

Hey Gaijin, I totally agree  Especially since i'm working with my head all day, it's such a great contrast to finally be able to do something manually. A while ago, I got a gyuto which was too thick behind the edge, and the experience of thinning by hand made that knife really special for me. Same goes for hand-sharpened knives. And it is really a lucky coincidence that our pull-trough sharpener inexplicably disappeared recently :whistling:


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## Sharpchef (Feb 3, 2017)

using a paste loadet strop kills the signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only.... sorry for saying that but this is the truth!

Cromox or Diamond compounds do also kill edge retention.... So don`T use this useless stuff!

Greets Sebastian.


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## alterwisser (Feb 3, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> using a paste loadet strop kills the signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only.... sorry for saying that but this is the truth!
> 
> Cromox or Diamond compounds do also kill edge retention.... So don`T use this useless stuff!
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



Not use it after final stone in progression, or not use it AT ALL (e.g.: not even for touch ups in between sharpenings?)


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## gaijin (Feb 3, 2017)

miggus said:


> Hey Gaijin, I totally agree  Especially since i'm working with my head all day, it's such a great contrast to finally be able to do something manually. A while ago, I got a gyuto which was too thick behind the edge, and the experience of thinning by hand made that knife really special for me. Same goes for hand-sharpened knives. And it is really a lucky coincidence that our pull-trough sharpener inexplicably disappeared recently :whistling:



I also have an office job, so sharpening a knife or washing my 1999 SLK both have a good feeling: doings something with my hands that also gives visible results.


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## gaijin (Feb 3, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> using a paste loadet strop kills the signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only.... sorry for saying that but this is the truth!



Don't apologize for telling the truth. I'm still a beginner.


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## Jovidah (Feb 3, 2017)

Whatever you do, research the grit size of the compounds and your stones before you buy. You wouldn't be the first one to end up using some compounds that are coarser than your finest stone, essentially rendering at least one of the two rather pointless.


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## Sharpchef (Feb 4, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> Not use it after final stone in progression, or not use it AT ALL (e.g.: not even for touch ups in between sharpenings?)



Not at all!... If you use it within the honing progression, you will built a secondary bevel, and even if this is tiny, you have to raise the angle on the finer stones... So not at all.

Chromox used on a toothy edge (less then 4k maybe) just makes the saw blunt........ Imagine a rounded sawtooth.

To deburr while honing (depends very much on used pressure) you may use cork or wood, that can help.

Greets Sebastian.


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## RDalman (Feb 4, 2017)

Til every knife I ship out is a blunt saw. :stinker:


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## Sharpchef (Feb 4, 2017)

RDalman said:


> Til every knife I ship out is a blunt saw. :stinker:




If you are using chromox pastet strop, then yes, but not in terms of blunt edge, it seems and is sharp for shure, but the edge retention suffers....

German knife industry like WMF or Zwilling use coarse wheels (lets say about 400 Grit JIS) and then polishe the edge, for better edge retention, so there it is like a blunt saw that has big teeth that get polished, and cut lets say ok, this gives a better edge retention.

But if you go beyond 3000 Grit JIS, and use Chromox after this the edge retention suffers badly.

It is the same with straight razors, a pure Jnat Edge will outlast any pastet Synthetic or natural one.

I sharpened one of a german forum private PA Knive made by you, and the edge lasts for about 4 members. (Without stropping and HHT-5 Level). What is your experience there?

So any experienced sharpener has his own method, and most neewbys don`t touch the edge with the finer stones, but get good results with too much stropping on pastet strops..... The next sharpening is much fun, with roundet bevels....... 

You should see my statements as a warning for beginners (like the thread starter)..... Not for experienced sharpeners.

Greets Sebastian.


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## RDalman (Feb 4, 2017)

What is sharpening, and what is "sharp" is also a interesting subject. Chances are your truths are not necessarily someone elses truth, helpful advice here is difficult to give imo. Because I'm "into" freehand sharpening and consider fixed angle gizmos to hurt "performance" as well as make impossible assumptions. A good sharpener (imo) will maintain profile, as well as geometry, in addition to putting a sharp edge on the knife.


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## Sharpchef (Feb 4, 2017)

RDalman said:


> What is sharpening, and what is "sharp" is also a interesting subject. Chances are your truths are not necessarily someone elses truth, helpful advice here is difficult to give imo. Because I'm "into" freehand sharpening and consider fixed angle gizmos to hurt "performance" as well as make impossible assumptions. A good sharpener (imo) will maintain profile, as well as geometry, in addition to putting a sharp edge on the knife.



In my opinion after 15 years of freehand sharpening (that always leads to a more or less convexe edge)... 

The main consence about sharpening kitchen knifes (especially Gyuto`s) is that anything over 6k is waste of time, right?

As you know, i sharpen on a very special gizmo, and this leads to ultimate edge retention, and i can always remain geometry with this tool. Even better i can totally control my honing action. And i can sharpen controlled convexe edges with this tool "gizmo"...


Look at this article about stropping (and what happens on the edge!)

https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/03/31/the-pasted-strop-part-3/

As you can see the Bevel getting convex very fast with only a few laps, and there is still a burr..... And this shows straight razor edges, with kitchen knives there is nearly no control while stropping and almost everybody uses too much pressure on strops (no matter if it is a hanging strop or a strop mounted on wood....

And nowbody has to believe my thoughts, but i have tried it about 60 times now, cutting in pro environment for at least 150 meals per day, and with Chromox edges (no matter how they where sharpened before) the edge retention suffers badly.

Just for comparison, The same knife sharpened up to Naniwa Chosera 10k lasts for about 100 meals (freehand), with chromium oxide (mounted on wood leather strop) it lasts for about 20 meals. With the same knife sharpened with a pressure control gizmo, the edge last for about 250 meals (without Choromox), with Chromox it lasts about 25-30 meals.....

I think we should lead the discussion some where else..... To not demoralize the starters here.

Greets Sebastian.


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## merlijny2k (Feb 4, 2017)

All very interesting. Starts to sound somewhat convincing. Double blind test?


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## Krassi (Feb 4, 2017)

of course i believe it because i have ordered one of those "gizmos" 
I think this is like high preformance tuning for experienced sharpeners that want to go beyond. But as mentioned no one need 100% to be happy. 70-90% will blow you away at the beginning and will do.
As a starter you are happy to get the same result as you bought it.
I am also still a beginner.. with a jnat collection fetish of doom  but still a beginner. And its good to know to accept that you are a beginner and always focus on improving!


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## daveb (Feb 4, 2017)

Hope that the old farts will take away from this that they're are many roads to the top of the mountain.

And the newer guys take away that sharpening is as subjective as knives and that this is a collection of usually well reasoned opinions

Except the guy with the rock, a piece of string and the coconut.:what:


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## gaijin (Feb 4, 2017)

daveb said:


> Except the guy with the rock, a piece of string and the coconut.:what:



Ah, you just need a lime. And put it in the coconut. And drink it all up. 

As the original poster, I'm just enjoying the show.


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## Benuser (Feb 4, 2017)

A strop is very useful for fast deburring, pushing debris on one side where you can easily abrade them. Strop at a lower angle than your sharpening angle, which is again lower than the 'bite' angle.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 4, 2017)

"signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only"

That would only be of concern if the sharpener owns a stone whose signature is desirable to keep, and that is fine enough for the desired sharpness.

Also, the intended result might be to get the d... knife sharp now not be ultra-perfect with a finishing stone 

"Cromox or Diamond compounds do also kill edge retention...."

OK, explain to me how crox or even diamond loaded on a moderately hard, even surface (not a hanging strop) is different from a finishing stone of the same grit? (Not saying you're wrong! This is a request for discussion not a rebuttal).

"Imagine a rounded sawtooth."

Imagine a sawtooth with a polished apex?

"you will built a secondary bevel"

Which would be the exact intention both on finishing stone and loaded strop, unless you insist on a zero-microbevel edge that will in some cases be thicker than it needs to be?


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## Nemo (Feb 4, 2017)

Krassi said:


> of course i believe it because i have ordered one of those "gizmos"
> I think this is like high preformance tuning for experienced sharpeners that want to go beyond. But as mentioned no one need 100% to be happy. 70-90% will blow you away at the beginning and will do.
> As a starter you are happy to get the same result as you bought it.
> I am also still a beginner.. with a jnat collection fetish of doom  but still a beginner. And its good to know to accept that you are a beginner and always focus on improving!



Where did you get this Gizmo from? Can you link it?


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## RDalman (Feb 4, 2017)

https://youtu.be/xgxGzBr5vTY


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## Benuser (Feb 4, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> German knife industry like WMF or Zwilling use coarse wheels (lets say about 400 Grit JIS) and then polishe the edge, for better edge retention, so there it is like a blunt saw that has big teeth that get polished, and cut lets say ok, this gives a better edge retention.


I respectfully disagree. With the stainless steel they use a complete deburring @400 is just impossible -- as with any other steel I know, by the way. Chromium oxide buffering may help a bit, but will not result in full deburring. The poor edge retention of stainless Germans out-of-the-box is basically due to that poor deburring.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 4, 2017)

@Benuser or due to utopic initial edge angles that seem to be meant as relief bevels to put an actual bevel on  You know which maker I am talking about I think... OTOH, you could call a 10dps edge on sub-60HRC stainless a failure to deburr indeed


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## Benuser (Feb 4, 2017)

Yeah, I recently got two Wüsthof that weren't properly deburred, and the first one failed after four cuts. The nicest wire edge -- still don't know the German term for it -- I've ever seen. The second one had just an irregular fat burr on one side. You just can't deburr that steel at 14dps.


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## Krassi (Feb 4, 2017)

Hi @nemo new fresh video with the "light" system.. there is also a robust with extra pressure control (it full hardcore german but you will see the full functionality https://youtu.be/cCi6Q-aWpws the robust one looks like this http://up.picr.de/28147903ja.jpg )


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 4, 2017)

@Benuser the term for the wire edge is "10dps asian-style PETEC bevel", as advertised on some nakiris.

I think I've by accident gotten to the core of the varying experiences of Wüsthof users. Was bored, went to a german knife store and watched how they sold a few people Wusties. Noticed they tend to sell ceramic hones to new users, and demonstrate them in store on the knife bought - actually doing exactly what needs to be done initially, setting an obtuse microbevel and probably ripping most of the burr off in the course.


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## Krassi (Feb 4, 2017)

@LifeByA1000Cuts i love those german knifestores.. you have lots of fun and laugh your ass of when you listen to the sellers .. and most knifes they sell are crap


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 4, 2017)

The seller was puzzled when I told him enigmatically "he'll come for that tomorrow" when a customer declined purchasing a ceramic rod with his knife.


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## malexthekid (Feb 4, 2017)

daveb said:


> Hope that the old farts will take away from this that they're are many roads to the top of the mountain.
> 
> And the newer guys take away that sharpening is as subjective as knives and that this is a collection of usually well reasoned opinions
> 
> Except the guy with the rock, a piece of string and the coconut.:what:



What I take away from this is that confirmation bias is a beautiful thing.


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## Benuser (Feb 4, 2017)

With mine it was a 14dps Cordon Bleu, and I know how to sharpen, but an average consumer will wonder about it. But in your case they've sold a very coarse ceramic rod as well -- the blue one, sold as an 800, starting at 120JIS, I guess??


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## panda (Feb 4, 2017)

ya'll are nuts, i've always hated sharpening and still do. the whole reason i'm obsessed with finding the right stones is to make the experience suck less.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 4, 2017)

@Benuser white one, probably like the IKEA rod - which I think is exactly smack in the middle of OK .... btw, any of you abrasiveS geeks got any idea why it seems to be ultra-effective on AUS-8 in the upper 50s (apart from that being a possible material behind the 365+ metal handled, but didn't test on these)?


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## Krassi (Feb 4, 2017)

of course we are nuts!  i would be offended if someone declares me normal )


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## Benuser (Feb 4, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Benuser white one, probably like the IKEA rod - which I think is exactly smack in the middle of OK .... btw, any of you abrasiveS geeks got any idea why it seems to be ultra-effective on AUS-8 in the upper 50s (apart from that being a possible material behind the 365+ metal handled, but didn't test on these)?



Wüsthof 's 3k rod is white indeed. The blue one is supposed to be 1k but comes from the factory at some 120. Not so sure that will be that helpful to the consumer willing to abrade an initial Wüsthof burr.


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## Benuser (Feb 4, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> using a paste loadet strop kills the signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only.... sorry for saying that but this is the truth!
> 
> Cromox or Diamond compounds do also kill edge retention.... So don`T use this useless stuff!
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



With soft stainless you indeed better not use a high polishing. With soft carbons you can and should, but with the stainless it will invariably lead to edge instability. Carbides breaking out. Keep it rough. But this is true only for soft stainless like the Krupp 4116.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 4, 2017)

panda said:


> ya'll are nuts, i've always hated sharpening and still do. the whole reason i'm obsessed with finding the right stones is to make the experience suck less.


:rofl2:

My favorite honing rod is the smooth oval Dickoron Dick polish boldly displayed in gold letters on the blue handle:O


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 4, 2017)

@keithsaltydog and probably one of the few that you can *correctly* call a honing rod.


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## Nemo (Feb 4, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Hi @nemo new fresh video with the "light" system.. there is also a robust with extra pressure control (it full hardcore german but you will see the full functionality https://youtu.be/cCi6Q-aWpws the robust one looks like this http://up.picr.de/28147903ja.jpg )



Thanks Krassi and also Robin. I'm quite curious but I suspect I shoul just focus on my freehand techniqe. Where would one find such a device and what's the cost?


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## Sharpchef (Feb 5, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "signature of the used finishing stone and just covers your unability to do real sharpness with stones only"
> 
> That would only be of concern if the sharpener owns a stone whose signature is desirable to keep, and that is fine enough for the desired sharpness.
> 
> ...



Ok, a good finisher is needed, no question here....

A knife has to be sharp, there are many ways to do this.

crox and other compounds on a hard surface like a metal polish plate, work fine, like a stone, you are right here, Chromox finish is like a coticule finish, less teeth less bite, diamond compound is better there, but should not be used with edge leading strokes, that might harm the edge (some kind of slurry dulling effect, some might know from razor honing with coticules...). But if the compound is on a only moderate hard medium, it will cause a convex micro bevel. 

So most of you guys sharpen with lets say a 20 Degree total edge, and then make a one or two sided microbevel, with about 40 Degree total angle? right?

Resulting in a slightly better cut then a 40 degree edge without microbevel. But it is a little weaker for lets say cutting hard things like parmesan or rosemary stem especially when you accidentely jam the knife.

The Sawtooth thing.... Is a little hard to explain, take an ordinary new Woodsaw, that cuts very well because of very sharp and sawteeth that got massive burr. If you use this saw for quite a while, the sharpness/easy cut will suffer, not because the teeth are gone, only the burr will be lost over a little time frame.... And this is exactly what happens when you treat your blades with cromox loadet strops.

What i need for my cutting (and i am talking about knives beyond 60 HRC), mostly rock chopping, is a edge that holds up and is less sensitive.
Therefore i don`t sharpen microbevels, i only sharpen one bevel with 36 degree, sometimes the first part of the knife is done with 38 degree, this is why there is the most impact on the board while cutting Onions etc.

The Blade is polished to maybe 20k Level (Gokumyo) and sometimes a little Arkansas session after this. To create a bevel that got nearly no teeth left, that could be harmed my jamming on maybe Rosemary wooden stem....
And as every experienced sharpener knows, this should be a very sharp but short cutting edge. If this is done by hand, or Edge Pro.....
So not the thing we want. But with the Bogdan Gizmo, it is possible, because it takes very much weight away from the edge while sharpening...

So i can sharpen a high quality hard gyuto like a straight razor, or even sharper (With Diamond lapping Film, that even cuts through carbides as well....) And it will outlast every edge that was done by hand and an usefull edge, lets say at 5k level.

I would like to prove it, for you, so i would need a trusted member here, that lives in EU, and i will sharpen a knife from me or him, too prove this theory.

Greetings Sebastian.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 5, 2017)

20k gokumyo is far above the standard usually practiced even here, no argument with that 

So would you have the same advice for users that prefer (or are relearning to) wrist pivoted technique instead of rock chopping? If I am not mistaken, that translates to "need a balance of slicing (teeth) and push cutting (keenness), and a different one than for tip-pivot technique like rock chopping or guillotine and glide. Need less crush resilience, more straight on impact resilience."

"but should not be used with edge leading strokes", "...coticule..."

Which I'd not do with neither a balsa strop nor a coticule - Something the weight of a kitchen knife will all too easily bite both with the slightest slip of attention


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## Ruso (Feb 5, 2017)

I am quite sceptical about all this.


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## bennyprofane (Feb 5, 2017)

I recommend Matus as the person who should test one of sharpchefs sharpened knives, he is also s knife maker, is respected around here and lives in Germany, so no issues sending back and forth easily...


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## Sharpchef (Feb 5, 2017)

Ruso said:


> I am quite sceptical about all this.



And you are right! i was absolutely sceptical! Till the time it was proved to me.....

@LifeByA1000Cuts: You know there are coticules that are not easy to cut into ....

@bennyprofane: @Matus might be a good choice. I just PM`d Matus and ecchef and they may test my sharpening if they like.

Greets Sebastian.


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## fatboylim (Feb 6, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Hi @nemo new fresh video with the "light" system.. there is also a robust with extra pressure control (it full hardcore german but you will see the full functionality https://youtu.be/cCi6Q-aWpws the robust one looks like this http://up.picr.de/28147903ja.jpg )



Where can you get one of those? That's mighty interesting.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 6, 2017)

@Sharpchef in a way, I appreciate that the BBW (blue coticule) forces one to think before doing anything edge leading...


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## malexthekid (Feb 6, 2017)

Ruso said:


> I am quite sceptical about all this.



100% agree. Afterall I still see all the same downfalls with this system as any other. Doesn't take into account of blade geometry, at least for a blade with any curve.

As for edge retention that still doesn't add up to me, i still believe it is that you are setting for a more obtuse angle (and holding it better) with this system. Which us leading to more material behind the edge and therefore a more stable edge.

Of course the higher grit you go the more your technique flaws show, so I still suggest it isn't the machine creating the best edge retention, just a more consistent result than you can produce by hand, the key opperative being you.

As for the stropping rubbish... its all sharpening, a harder material being scratched against a softer material. If product builds up infront of the edge that may cause an issue, logically of course, but that is less to do with stropping but rather choice and application of materials.

Plus most stropping is edge trailing so less of an issue.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 6, 2017)

Well, an unloaded strop is more of a hone?

Now has anyone gotten into how the swarf particles a particular steel produces on a certain abrasive might take part in the process - there should be carbide bits with an abrasive effect, same-hardness particles with a burnishing effect...


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 6, 2017)

My guess is that detriment to an edge with a strop is due more to poor technique. Using too much pressure or rolling the blade off the leather. Burr removal on a stone, stropping on stone, newspaper, leather or whatever is a light touch. Pressure is for cutting bevels.

Never used strops at work. Like to use leather when sharpening others knives as a finishing touch. I recommend stashing a small splash go at work. If your knife is trained to your sharpening style a few strokes will put the edge right. Certainly better than wailing away on a grooved steel.

Edge retention JMO is due more to Knife geometry, type of steel, heat treatment, & a free handers skill than sharpening equipment.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 6, 2017)

"If your knife is trained to your sharpening style a few strokes will put the edge right"

So it's not an illusion that stropping a factory edge, loaded or unloaded, usually worsens it, even if it seems to have the same angle you'd put on it


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## Sharpchef (Feb 7, 2017)

keithsaltydog said:


> My guess is that detriment to an edge with a strop is due more to poor technique. Using too much pressure or rolling the blade off the leather. Burr removal on a stone, stropping on stone, newspaper, leather or whatever is a light touch. Pressure is for cutting bevels.
> 
> Never used strops at work. Like to use leather when sharpening others knives as a finishing touch. I recommend stashing a small splash go at work. If your knife is trained to your sharpening style a few strokes will put the edge right. Certainly better than wailing away on a grooved steel.
> 
> Edge retention JMO is due more to Knife geometry, type of steel, heat treatment, & a free handers skill than sharpening equipment.



The poor technique is the main cause for failure, for sure. But believe me i try so many different strops and compounds and all of them harm the edge in sence of edge retention Deteriorate `s extremely.

I think all expierencend sharpeners would call a stropping is less effective then a touchup on stones. So when i was in work, in my long freehand sharpening phase, i had to touch up the knife after a thinning, and sharpening about once a day in pro business, using various stones like Coticule, Jnat or Chosera 5k.
With the same knife (1.2562/F2 Toolsteel HRC 67) i can work now for about 1 week. Then i do a touchup with the system at home, and it will last one week again. I never go below Chosera 5k, mostly a Jnat Suita is enough. And this takes less then 5 minutes for one knife.

Edge retention is a mix of mainly sharpening angle, used steel (including heat treatment) and sharpening equipment that have to fit the knifesteel. For freehanding experience is really important for sure.

I habe tested some other sharpening systems as well.... And i always compared the same angle of sharpening with the same stones (Chosera 5 and 10 k in this test) with Edge Pro/some clones, the Scorpion, and freehand. Same level of sharpness (HHT-2 @ 5k, HHT-5 @ 10k)
The edge retention compared to freehand sharpening was about 10% better with the EP, with the Skorpion it was about 200% better.

So what is the difference? What makes it so much better?..... While freehanding we have to control the angle, and even if i hit it perfectly there is much pressure on the stone (about 700g on maybe 2,5 inches of the blade). With EP Systems it is more about the pressure (about 600g per Inch of edge), with the Skorpion it is about (at finish stage! with pressure control!) 50-150 g on about 2,5 inches of the blade....

This is the only reason i can imagine.

Greets Sebastian.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 7, 2017)

"1.2562/F2 Toolsteel HRC 67"

Did you mainly make the experiences you describe (limited edge retention from strops) on such radically hard, probably brittle knives? I did notice unloaded (newspaper) works a lot less repeatably on ZDP, AS etc compared to eg Shirogami...


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## malexthekid (Feb 7, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> The poor technique is the main cause for failure, for sure. But believe me i try so many different strops and compounds and all of them harm the edge in sence of edge retention Deteriorate `s extremely.
> 
> I think all expierencend sharpeners would call a stropping is less effective then a touchup on stones. So when i was in work, in my long freehand sharpening phase, i had to touch up the knife after a thinning, and sharpening about once a day in pro business, using various stones like Coticule, Jnat or Chosera 5k.
> With the same knife (1.2562/F2 Toolsteel HRC 67) i can work now for about 1 week. Then i do a touchup with the system at home, and it will last one week again. I never go below Chosera 5k, mostly a Jnat Suita is enough. And this takes less then 5 minutes for one knife.
> ...



You do understand that even 700g of pressure on 2 inches, or 50mm, is basically non-existent to the steel. Aka assuming your are working a bevel in the range of 0.5mm thick, tje pressure experienced is 280 kPa (or to put it in perspective 0.28 MPa when your yield of steel is 500MPa).

Yes pressure spikes will occur due to the thinness but they will basically occur no matter what pressure you use. But even then. You are talking about a 1600 times increase to approach yield, which is highly unlikely.


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## malexthekid (Feb 7, 2017)

As a side note that was just a straight bearing pressure calc, the shear stress at the edge is probably higher if you are hitting that small a bevel but still unlikely to be at any level close to critical.


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## Sharpchef (Feb 8, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "1.2562/F2 Toolsteel HRC 67"
> 
> Did you mainly make the experiences you describe (limited edge retention from strops) on such radically hard, probably brittle knives? I did notice unloaded (newspaper) works a lot less repeatably on ZDP, AS etc compared to eg Shirogami...



This steel with good heat treatment is probably less brittle than any japanese knife i try`ed so far.

And yes i did some tests on ordinary steels like shirogami, aogami etc. and it works.
With this expierience i can say that the effect is transferable.... to other steels... My Munetoshi white 2 is now cabable to do 2 Weeks of homecooking with Gokumyo 20k finish. Without the system the edge is killed about 2-8 meals....

Matus will test this.

Greets Sebastian.


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## RDalman (Feb 8, 2017)

With super high hardness like that you have to sacrifice alot on thickness to get a edge that holds up, hurts performance more than I like.


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## Jovidah (Feb 8, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> This steel with good heat treatment is probably less brittle than any japanese knife i try`ed so far.
> 
> And yes i did some tests on ordinary steels like shirogami, aogami etc. and it works.
> With this expierience i can say that the effect is transferable.... to other steels... My Munetoshi white 2 is now cabable to do 2 Weeks of homecooking with Gokumyo 20k finish. Without the system the edge is killed about 2-8 meals....
> ...



If your knife edge only lasts 2-8 meals, it's time to throw away the glass cutting board...


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## Sharpchef (Feb 8, 2017)

We will see..... .

Gretings.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 8, 2017)

A meal can translate to a few cuts in a steak and peeling a few spuds or "bowlloads of fine diced aromatics, ten kinds of veg plus herb garnish plus maybe some protein, 5 portions" .... razor sharp after 8 of the latter (without abrasive maintenance) is beyond the average persons knives


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## natto (Feb 9, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> My Munetoshi white 2 is now cabable to do 2 Weeks of homecooking with Gokumyo 20k finish. Without the system the edge is killed about 2-8 meals....



You can sharpen anything freehand, a chef, did that many years, and a Munetoshi holds up two meals on a bad day:scratchhead:


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## Sharpchef (Feb 9, 2017)

I did my tests, with each sharpening (Chosera 5k /10k / Jnat) 11times for each with freehand sharpening, (Chosera 10k with EP) 11 times, and Chosera 10k, Jnat with scorpion system 11times.
All of this tests where made with about the same amount of vedgetable, fruit and meat, cheese and herbs.

I work as headchef in a school and a hotel. In the school i use almost the same ingredients (ok some are cut more some less....) and in the hotel i use the same menu in 2 week exchange.

If i take only the outcome with Naniwa 10k sharpening : it was the following in average (as said tested 11times) . The test was stopped when it was no more possible to cut an ripe tomato without efford.

cooked meals 10k finish by hand:max 110, 123, 145, 122, 130, 99, 117, 125, 110, 121, 134
cooked meals 10k finish with EP:max 115, 124, 167, 155, 134, 114, 117, 167, 156, 134, 145
cooked meals 10k finish with scorpion:max 350, 325, 345, 405, 378, 399, 425, 359, 412, 434, 389

With Jnats and the scorpion system it was nearly double.....

I will prove this for anybody how doupt it. And it seems that even with pure carbon steels like Shirogami etc. the effect is the same, with much less edge retention for shure, but 4times better with really shaving sharp kinves (and yes they get dull within time, it is only steel!).. And it only shows the outcome with my cutting technique on my plastic boards.

Greets Sebastian.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 9, 2017)

meal = portion, one person served lunch?


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## Sharpchef (Feb 9, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> meal = portion, one person served lunch?



Please PM me, it might be a total translation damage ????? As you can speak and read german?


Greets Sebastian.


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## natto (Feb 10, 2017)

Sebastian, some people might be offended by your posts, like Mune not holding an edge, TF being crap, ...


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## malexthekid (Feb 10, 2017)

No one can dispute your numbers but they still are not proof that your jig provides the ultimate edge retention... just more a potential reflection on your handsharpening in comparison...

It also does not answer rhe issue that it still doesn't allow for following the geometry and profile of the blade and you are actually getting a continuous angle change across the blade.


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## Sharpchef (Feb 10, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> No one can dispute your numbers but they still are not proof that your jig provides the ultimate edge retention... just more a potential reflection on your handsharpening in comparison...
> 
> It also does not answer rhe issue that it still doesn't allow for following the geometry and profile of the blade and you are actually getting a continuous angle change across the blade.



There may be a better thing than this system, i don`t doupt this.....

Another Jiig Manufacturer that offers a free sharpening service, observed my handsharpening and it was about 90% (if we count the Magna Tec Jiig as 100%  )... He stated that there is no need for me to use a sharpening system.
So if i can reach razor sharp level by hand, why i should use a Jiig.... Because the real razor sharp edges '(again HHT-5 level without loadet strops!) are not good in terms of edge retention, especially when cutting on hard plastic boards.

So can anybody of you, sharpen a knife freehand to this high sharpness with a usefull outcome in kitchen? After rock chopping maybe 10 onions the most knifes will not cut ripe tomatoes anymore....... So this is not usefull. Therefore the common conclusion is, sharpening at about 5-6k level is enough to keep the bite.

And this is for sure only the potential reflection of my handsharpening VS the different Jiigs... 

This can also be proven with rope cutting tests, like many russian guys do, maybe with paper cutting tests, but it don`t reflect the edge retention in the kitchen.

So if you got any idea, for a better testing, let me know.

@natto: If they are offended, btw. i don`t know why? who is offended? The manufacturer, the dealer?...... My Munetoshi complaint was like, the edge retention is not better then Kato out of the same steel.... ? And i think this is what a forum like this meant for... Discussion about knives.... If not, sorry. Is it just about, i bought a knife, like it, and some german guy states it is not (in his opinion)? I see no offence here, sorry.

This may also be a problem, because i dislike most japanese knifes, because they don `t fit to my cutting technique, and the reactivity of most San Mai knifes with pure iron is too much for western pro business.... At Home i can life with this disadvantage, and like them, because of their sometimes unique grind (especially Kato san), but from the technical point of view, the most used japanese steels are not good enough (in edge retention mainly/and not because the steel is bad, the heat treatment doesn`t fit my demand!). If i would compare maybe my new Catcheside SC125 San Mai with Kato, WillC is the winner for sure (and this with comparable steel and price).
And there are japanese knifes that can hold up in pro business (again only my opinion, with my cutting motion etc.....) like Watanabe Pro series with stainless San Mai Aogami 2....
And his knifes (with the right/fitting sharpening angle) can compare to western ones.

Greets Sebastian.


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## natto (Feb 10, 2017)

Your statement to the Mune can't be knife discussing, because we never discuss knives that only last 2-8 meals.


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## Salty dog (Feb 10, 2017)

This discussion reminds me of a similar one we had about five years ago.

Bottom line is what ever works for the individual. For me, I'm happy with the results I achieve hand sharpening.


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## Sharpchef (Feb 10, 2017)

natto said:


> Your statement to the Mune can't be knife discussing, because we never discuss knives that only last 2-8 meals.


 :dazed:

Sorry,

Hier auf Deutsch:

Es geht darum, das eine Klinge wie z.B. das Munetoshi aus Shiro 2, geschärft mit sehr hohen Körnungen, mit einem flachen Winkel (also ca. 12-15 Grad) nach 2 Mahlzeiten keine reife Tomate mehr schneiden kann! nicht mehr und nicht weniger! Und das hat nichts damit zu tun das ich zu dumm zu schärfen währe!

translation:

It is all about, a blade like the munetoshi (shiro2) , sharpened by hand with 10k + with a angle like 12-15 degree, is no longer sufficent to cut a ripe tomato. Nothing more, and this is the reality, but has absolutely nothing to do with munetoshi knives, just used as an example! because they are good heat treated (in your opinion, and not bad in my opinion, just stated that my Kato lasts longer!).

And this is no more a discussion this is like "talk to my hands, face don`t listen"......

Any discussion, that is made by one (like me, and i really try to see all arguments... :surrendar: , ) is no discussion, when everybody seems to be better in handsharpening, feel lucky and do it. This is not wrong, i still do handsharpening and i still dont like Jiigs like EP, to slow, less control no thinnning etc...., Handsharpening with knowledge is superior to that no question.

Robin and Matus will test my edges and then we can talk about advantages....

Greets Sebastian.


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## Sharpchef (Feb 10, 2017)

Salty dog said:


> This discussion reminds me of a similar one we had about five years ago.
> 
> Bottom line is what ever works for the individual. For me, I'm happy with the results I achieve hand sharpening.



Thanks for that, and this is for sure the answer! I don`t know the discussion mentioned but i can say for me this special jiig work better, and so this is my way. Nothing else.

Greets Sebastian.


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## guari (Feb 10, 2017)

Salty dog said:


> Bottom line is what ever works for the individual. For me, I'm happy with the results I achieve hand sharpening.



Thank god someone said this. Whatever works & be happy about it.


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## bennyprofane (Feb 10, 2017)

In case some people missed sharpchefs point (lost in translation): Usually it is said that there is no point in going to very high grits like 20.000 because the edge won't last, his point is that with pressure control (very light pressure) and perfect angle control, this not only works but gives a razor edge which will last considerably longer than a normal edge at 5000-6000 grit.

That is also one of the reasons the Edge Pro will fail at this: These very light pressures are not possible.


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## Chuckles (Feb 10, 2017)

> I just wanna say that learning to sharpen a japanese knife on a whetstone is really really fun.



Wow. We started there and ended with the most pedantic guided device sales pitch I've ever read. I don't really enjoy hand sharpening anymore but guided devices look like a miserable way to pass time. Of course my opinion and to each their own. 

No offense intended, I like seeing the passion.


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## gaijin (Feb 10, 2017)

Chuckles said:


> Wow.



lus1:


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## natto (Feb 10, 2017)

Sorry Sebastian, I have totally missed the 20k grit in your original post. I am sorry for taking another thread off the rails.


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## Sharpchef (Feb 10, 2017)

natto said:


> Sorry Sebastian, I have totally missed the 20k grit in your original post. I am sorry for taking another thread off the rails.



No Problem ..... I don`t think you are the only one . Without this information my whole writting makes really no sence.

Greets Sebastian.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 11, 2017)

Discussions? on a DISCUSSION FORUM?!


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## Chuckles (Feb 11, 2017)

Go for it. Not trying to stop anybody. :whiteflag:


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## Sharpchef (Feb 15, 2017)

I am on the way to sharpen a blade of Robin Dalman and of Matus, lets see what they think about it....

Greets Sebastian.


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## Krassi (Feb 15, 2017)

And i am pretty sure ill go for the "robust version" of that bogdan3000  muahaha

only trouble will be that my knifes will last too long and i only got 30 ..meeeh 
I guess there is a lot like religious stuff regarding handsharpening.. well since i got way too many jnats i got to the point were my hand sharpening lacks the skills to fully unleash the power of the stones i have. And i hate this! 

Also i guess Sharpchef treats his knifes like you would treat a car in a crashtest .. so if something lasts longer than thats interesting..
As you might guess there is a big sharpeningsystem virus infecting us here in germany.. so more stuff to come muahahahaha! 

Seeya, Daniel


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## Jovidah (Feb 15, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Also i guess Sharpchef treats his knifes like you would treat a car in a crashtest .. so if something lasts longer than thats interesting..
> As you might guess there is a big sharpeningsystem virus infecting us here in germany.. so more stuff to come muahahahaha!
> 
> Seeya, Daniel



Oddly enough it seems to be the same in the Netherlands; on a Dutch knifeforum almost everyone is using jigs and guided system. Maybe they're more useful with outdoor knives and folders? As that seems to be all they're interested in...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 15, 2017)

Doing small blades on a bench stone feels like it takes a lot of effort per inch of edge sharpened. Same with large blades and guided systems


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## Benuser (Feb 15, 2017)

Outdoor knives and folders users don't seem to give a clue about geometry.


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## Eloh (Feb 15, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Doing small blades on a bench stone feels like it takes a lot of effort per inch of edge sharpened. Same with large blades and guided systems



I feel like this system is a bit different compared to the edge pro etc though. You pretty much ARE 'freehand' sharpening, just with a fixed angle. Everything else is virtually identical..


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## Jovidah (Feb 15, 2017)

Benuser said:


> Outdoor knives and folders users don't seem to give a clue about geometry.



No kidding... I guess it's less important when you're not using them to actually cut and seem more interesting in polishing bevels into mirrors. I guess they might actually prefer a knife that's thick behind the edge because it allows for bigger bevels to make shiny.



LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Doing small blades on a bench stone feels like it takes a lot of effort per inch of edge sharpened. Same with large blades and guided systems



Have to agree there. I hate sharpening smaller knives, and I always get impatient.


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## Benuser (Feb 15, 2017)

+1!
Believe me, you will get used to small knives as well! But I do remember very well working on friends' SAKs...


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## Jovidah (Feb 15, 2017)

I'm not sure I'll ever get any good at them... I don't use them much.... therefore I don't sharpen them much...therefore I keep disliking sharpening them... leading me to use them even less. Thank god for speed peelers.
With cheapo Robert Herder parers I just don't really care and put the handle straight against the side of the stone. Makes them look horrible but I can't be arsed to care.


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## Benuser (Feb 15, 2017)

Just as with any form you don't know yet: start with the sharpie trick. And so you will recognise the big micro-bevel on the left side with Herder's peelers.


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## Jovidah (Feb 15, 2017)

That micro-bevel is long gone. And I'm not THAT bad at them... I can get them sharp. I just hate doing it and in the case of the Herders just rub the start of the handle against the stones, as I hate fussing around to get all of the blade sharp. The worst IMO are really round tips, like on Opinel pocket knives. I know the technique and can do it, but it takes me ages to get it right and gives me no joy. Thank god for I have a honesuki... much more useful tip and so much easier to sharpen!


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## Benuser (Feb 15, 2017)

Take a bit from the handle to free the heel.


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## Benuser (Feb 15, 2017)




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## Jovidah (Feb 15, 2017)

How did you do that? Saw? File?
Right now the corner of the handle is wearing away... just rather slowly.


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## Benuser (Feb 15, 2017)

Cutting with an Opinel. Birch is rather soft. And smoothen a bit with sandpaper


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## TheCaptain (Feb 16, 2017)

Brilliant! Never thought of that. Bookmarked this for later.


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## Jovidah (Feb 22, 2017)

Well the Opinel is blunt, the Herder isn't looking any prettier, and I've proven beyond a doubt that I shouldn't pursue a carreer in wood carving... but it's certainly a lot more functional! Thanks again for the tip! This will become standard on all my Herders.


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## Benuser (Feb 22, 2017)

You're welcome, Jovidah! I certainly should have warned it does blunt the Opinel, but sharpening it is always fun to me. Enjoy!


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## Jovidah (Feb 22, 2017)

Although I can't say I enjoy sharpening the Opinel much, getting blunt, beaten and otherwise maltreated is exactly what it's there for.  If it wanted to be treated nicely, it shouldn't have been so cheap!


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## Benuser (Feb 22, 2017)

Once you know you will damage an edge, there are two options: have the blade with the least damage, or have the one with the easiest repair. I prefer a carbon with easy repairing.


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## gaijin (Feb 25, 2017)

This thread has gotten further than I hoped. And now I'm looking for more stones rather than more knives.  

Even the first carbon knife i got, the loathed Tojiro Shirogami, gets screaming sharp on several combinations of stones and strops in my unskilled hands. And the better knives just scream louder.


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## Eloh (Feb 27, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> I am on the way to sharpen a blade of Robin Dalman and of Matus, lets see what they think about it....
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



Any progress or feedback on that matteR?


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## Sharpchef (Mar 18, 2017)

I am waiting also.... They got their knifes back so.... guess they are shocked ..

Greets Sebastian.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 18, 2017)

@gaijin I wonder if it is loathed because it is really bad, or because it is actually too demanding for users buying knives in that price segment  Mine is... well, it is what you'd expect of non-handforged shirogami at traditional hardness, no more no less....


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## Benuser (Mar 18, 2017)

bennyprofane said:


> In case some people missed sharpchefs point (lost in translation): Usually it is said that there is no point in going to very high grits like 20.000 because the edge won't last, his point is that with pressure control (very light pressure) and perfect angle control, this not only works but gives a razor edge which will last considerably longer than a normal edge at 5000-6000 grit.
> 
> That is also one of the reasons the Edge Pro will fail at this: These very light pressures are not possible.



The only advantage can be in a further reduced or almost inexistant burr, while the comparison edge hasn't been fully deburred.


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## banjo1071 (Mar 18, 2017)

And whoever tried one of the knives sharpend by Seb ( as i did just recently) can testify that this is true!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Mar 18, 2017)

@Benuser could a very closed edge, with very little to offer in terms of stress concentrators or points where a tough cutting medium can snag and rip metal off, not be very durable indeed - though it would lack even a ghost of a bite?


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## Benuser (Mar 18, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Benuser could a very closed edge, with very little to offer in terms of stress concentrators or points where a tough cutting medium can snag and rip metal off, not be very durable indeed - though it would lack even a ghost of a bite?



Not sure I even understand a single word of what you're saying.


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## RDalman (Mar 19, 2017)

You'll have some feedback when I have got to use it. So long you can have some pics; it's a very well done microbevel (and I sort of expected that since it took you a month) https://imgur.com/gallery/XjtOc

Just a little bit of wireedge.


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## Matus (Mar 19, 2017)

Sharpchef said:


> I am waiting also.... They got their knifes back so.... guess they are shocked ..
> 
> Greets Sebastian.



Ha, I read this thread pretty much by accident. The knife is waiting for its use - that will happen over the next few days. What I can say already is that you did a great job thinning and adjusting the geometry. The edge as it is now does not want to shave, but seems it is going to have quite some bite. I will share more in a few days.


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## Matus (Mar 19, 2017)

OK, the knife from Sharpchef just proved itself. The grind is great, the knife cuts very well - pretty incomparable to its original condition. I have quickly taken it to a Uchigumori stone and then fingerstones - now it also looks beautifully  (OK, I may need to take it to a 2k and 4k stones to take out some scratches as the Uchigumori is of course a rather fine stone, but still).

So, Sharpchef, job well done :thumbsup:

I bought this blade as a project knife (I did the handle, now Sharpchef upped the grind) to play with and sell later, but now it turned into quite a performer, so I am not su sure anymore about the selling ...


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## Sharpchef (Mar 19, 2017)

Ok so the Uchigimori session worked (maybe you killed the sharpness while doing this ?), so i succeedet in dug out the Impuritys of the iron.... This is good to hear.

I was confused by the grinding of Tanaka in this case, this was really bad.

Greets Sebastian.


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## Matus (Mar 19, 2017)

No no, I did not touch the edge at all. The knife cuts great, no need to sharpen it yet


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## gaijin (Mar 20, 2017)

And I, the original poster just made a freehand touchup on a regular stone and was very happy with the results.


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## Matus (Mar 20, 2017)

:thumbsup: (and sorry for a slight derail of your thread)


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## gaijin (Mar 21, 2017)

Don't be sorry, it's one of the best derails yet.


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