# A better stone lineup? Two questions...



## hmansion (Feb 6, 2017)

My current stone lineup is:

500 Beston (thinning & establishing new edge only)
1200 King
6000 King
10000 Naniwa

These give good results with both white steel & VG-10 gyutos, yanagibas, honesuki, deba...

I have a Hattori Forums 150mm petty (VG-10), however, that has been a challenge. I frequently catch the edge in the 6000 King and 10000 Naniwa, gouging the stone. This petty is long, thin and narrow so it flexes easily and is prone to roll over when under pressure on the stones.

I guess I have two questions: 1) any recommendations on a better stone lineup? Have never loved the feel of the 6000 King in particular. 2) any tips on sharpening the flexible petty?


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## daveb (Feb 6, 2017)

Welcome to the forum. 

You should consider replacing the 6K with a 5K Suehiro, (still a little soft), a JKI 6K or JNS 6K.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 6, 2017)

@daveb curious, are the two stones you mention better (in sharpness or finish) than the king, or just more gouge proof (which the king is, compared to the BBW  )

Does the gouging happen on edge trailing or leading strokes?


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## daveb (Feb 6, 2017)

I'm not a fan of King (well the 800 is ok) so I may be wrong person to ask. Sounds like you're not much of a fan of the King 6K - the finishing stone should be the sexiest one in your lineup. The JNS and JKI will be harder stones and so more resistant to gouging if you wobble a bit on a leading stroke. But gouging can still happen.


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## ecchef (Feb 6, 2017)

The Suehiro is a very good stone and was pretty much de rigueur before the introduction of the JCK & JKI options. I continue to use mine although it can be prone to gouging if you break concentration. Either of the other 6k stones would be an excellent choice based on user feedback I've read.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 6, 2017)

@daveb me? Nah, I think the King 6K is alright, just wondered if the stones you recommended to the OP are worth trying if one is not dissatisfied with the king....


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## foody518 (Feb 6, 2017)

Used a King 6k briefly on one occasion, found the edge it left toothier than what I expected for a synth 6k rated stone. 
Sigma Power 6k is much the other way - has a denser feel, should not gouge, more polished


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## Jovidah (Feb 6, 2017)

Which Naniwa 10 000? The professional / chosera? Or the super / sharpening stone?
Because the later is notoriously soft. Razor guys seem to love it. Knife guys always seem to hate it.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Feb 6, 2017)

hmansion said:


> I have a Hattori Forums 150mm petty (VG-10), however, that has been a challenge. I frequently catch the edge in the 6000 King and 10000 Naniwa, gouging the stone. This petty is long, thin and narrow so it flexes easily and is prone to roll over when under pressure on the stones.
> 
> I guess I have two questions: 1) any recommendations on a better stone lineup? Have never loved the feel of the 6000 King in particular. 2) any tips on sharpening the flexible petty?



1) My current polishing stone is a Scorpion Forge natural. Very hard, but it produces a very nice polished edge. 

2) Flexible knives need to be sharpened with very little pressure. It's a technique issue. Let the stone do the work. 

Rick


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## hmansion (Feb 6, 2017)

@LifeByA1000Cuts The gouging occurs on edge leading strokes. This smallish knife is difficult to hold angle with on these strokes as I don't have the option of steadying with the right-hand index finger (I'm right handed) along the spine. Additionally, I have to keep the knife 90°/perpendicular to the stone on these strokes to avoid scratching the bolster, so this, too, is contributing to rolling the knife and gouging the stone.

@Jovidah It's the Naniwa Super and that's very interesting feedback you've shared. I've not heard it before about the two Naniwa 10k stones.

@Pensacola Tiger Yes, I believe I'm using too much pressure and will have to use more finesse & patience with this petty. Thanks for the input!

I appreciate all the replies so far and it sounds like I have some solid alternatives to try in both 6k and 10k.


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## Jovidah (Feb 6, 2017)

hmansion said:


> @Jovidah It's the Naniwa Super and that's very interesting feedback you've shared. I've not heard it before about the two Naniwa 10k stones.


Well the Naniwa Super and the Naniwa Chosera are basically completely different stones, with entirely different characteristics.
The chosera is a lot harder and better at grinding tougher & high-alloy steels. It's also a lot faster.

The super is a lot slower and softer... but a much better polisher. 

The easiest solution to me seems to be to use the stone only with edge trailing strokes. Some people seem to make it work with that stone so it's not entirely impossible.
Turning at an angle also seems to lessen the problem. If the standard position doesn't work, just keep turning the stone untill you find a position that does. There's always one. Nowhere does it say that your stone always has to be perpendicular to your belly button. 
But I have no experience with the actual stones or sharpening fancy yanagiba's, so take that for what it is: just an uninformed suggestion.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 6, 2017)

I thought edge leading is always best avoided on a true finisher, unless you are, say, polishing a kireba?

Are the polishing-grit choseras as extremely pressure dependent in their speed as their low grits?


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## hmansion (Feb 6, 2017)

Jovidah said:


> Well the Naniwa Super and the Naniwa Chosera are basically completely different stones, with entirely different characteristics.
> The chosera is a lot harder and better at grinding tougher & high-alloy steels. It's also a lot faster.
> 
> The super is a lot slower and softer... but a much better polisher.
> ...



Thank you for the helpful suggestions. You've helped me a couple of times today on this forum! :beer:


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## hmansion (Feb 14, 2017)

To follow up, I ordered the JNS 6000 Matukusuyama. To qualify for free shipping, I also ordered the JNS 1000 Matukusuyama. I revisited sharpening the Hattori Forums 150mm petty and it now has a keen edge. I took the opportunity to A/B compare my old King 1200 vs the JNS 1000 and my old King 6000 vs the JNS 6000.

The King 1200 is thicker but less wide than the JNS 1000. The King is more hard than the JNS, which felt slightly "chalkier". I found little difference in speed between the stones and think they're both good options in this range. I probably actually slightly prefer the King.

I mentioned I wasn't thrilled with my King 6000 and found it a bit soft. The JNS 6000 was a great recommendation, I found it to be a harder stone, and I did not have issues with gouging on it. I didn't notice a difference in speed, but the JNS was a nice improvement in feel. To quantify the intangible, I'd say I'm 50% happier with the JNS. Definitely glad I picked this one up!

Based on some of the reviews I read for the JNS stones, I almost expected a life-changing experience with sharpening on them. Of course, this didn't happen.

Of all my knives, this petty has been the most stubborn on the stones for me, due to its flexibility and being VG-10. And to be honest, the biggest improvement in this most recent sharpening session was less from the stones and more from my resolve to bring patience, presence and concentration. Thanks again for the helpful recommendations and feedback!


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## foody518 (Feb 14, 2017)

As you continue to use them, see if you notice differences in wear rate


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## bennyprofane (Feb 14, 2017)

hmansion said:


> To follow up, I ordered the JNS 6000 Matukusuyama. To qualify for free shipping, I also ordered the JNS 1000 Matukusuyama. I revisited sharpening the Hattori Forums 150mm petty and it now has a keen edge. I took the opportunity to A/B compare my old King 1200 vs the JNS 1000 and my old King 6000 vs the JNS 6000.
> 
> The King 1200 is thicker but less wide than the JNS 1000. The King is more hard than the JNS, which felt slightly "chalkier". I found little difference in speed between the stones and think they're both good options in this range. I probably actually slightly prefer the King.
> 
> ...



I remember reading an older post here by Dave Martell, saying that the King 1200 is one of his favourite stones in this range and much better than the rather mediocre King 1000.

A "life changing" 1000 experience might be the Watanabe AI 1000, it's faster than my JNS 300. The Kitayama 8000 is also very fast (you can even sharpen to a burr easily), faster than my JNS 6000 but I like the feedback of JNS 6000 better.


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## fatboylim (Feb 17, 2017)

+1 for King deluxe 1200 particularly for stainless steel.


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## Badgertooth (Feb 17, 2017)

I am all about the King Hyper now. Zip zap, new fresh edge and a perfect cosmetic finish


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Feb 17, 2017)

Worth trying the hyper if you already have a standard (home grade) 1000? "slightly softer binding", says the Dictum catalogue ... I thought you'd end up with an ink eraser if you made a king any softer?


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## Badgertooth (Feb 17, 2017)

Na, I think Dictum is doing its classic "this Nakiri is a Usuba" no-clue-switcheroo . They come in three grades of hardness:
Soft, regular & hard.
I got the regular and it's palpably harder than a King Deluxe. It feels like a slightly harder, 1000 grit Takenoko. These were designed specifically to deal with harder steels.


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## fatboylim (Feb 17, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> I am all about the King Hyper now. Zip zap, new fresh edge and a perfect cosmetic finish



If only it were splash and go! Although, can this be soaked for 15 minutes then left to dry out for storage?


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## hmansion (Feb 17, 2017)

This thread:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/30768-1k-stone-hunt

and $55 have resulted in a King Hyper (regular-medium) 1000 on the way from eBay seller japanissimo.

Thankfully, I'm satisfied with the Beston 500 and JNS 6000 in their respective ranges.

I'll live with the Naniwa Super 10k. At $275, I can't justify trying the Naniwa Pro Chosera 10k...


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## Badgertooth (Feb 17, 2017)

fatboylim said:


> If only it were splash and go! Although, can this be soaked for 15 minutes then left to dry out for storage?



I hope so.. that's kinda how I plan on using it. Gave it a 20 min soak last night and it was enough that I could use it as S&G this morning still.


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