# What Happens When You Abolish Tipping



## mano (Sep 30, 2013)

Interesting read:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2013/08/tipless_restaurants_the_linkery_s_owner_explains_why_abolishing_tipping.single.html


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## labor of love (Sep 30, 2013)

making gratuity mandatory(server charge)? sounds good to me. the disparity between what FOH takes home and BOH takes home needs to change, thats for sure.


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## mkriggen (Sep 30, 2013)

As someone who has worked as a server and in a kitchen, lus1:


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## tk59 (Sep 30, 2013)

I think the idea of splitting the "service charge" amongst all the employees is a good idea. However, as someone who was forced to go to The Linkery three times in three different years, I have to say, the service was spotty and while there were a few tasty dishes, they weren't surprising (delicious sausages and cheese aren't hard to come by) or imaginative in flavor, composition or appearance. I always got the feeling it was the "coolness" (large open windows on the corner of a busy street in the fashionable part of town) that sold the place. I won't miss it. The $2 taco shop down the street is much better in every respect other than the wine list.


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## marc4pt0 (Sep 30, 2013)

When I opened our place I flat out made it policy that a small percentage of FOH gratuity went to the BOH. It only amounts to $20-$30 extra on my cooks paychecks, but Heck that's gas money! plus I also thinks this helps tear down the "wall" between the front and back, which I absolutely despise. 
I'm on the fence when it comes to mandatory grat though. Too many issues with that. Will the severs start becoming less outgoing? And of course guests will certainly argue it. pros and cons I guess


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## mzer (Sep 30, 2013)

This is a subject that is interesting and worth exploring, but is often overly reduced when it comes to the social and inequality outcomes of tipping, and also when trying to pinpoint which incentives are actually at play. It's way too simplistic to compare incentives by saying "look, they still exist!" rather than to understand why and how they work, and how the different models of employee pay change not only the customer/server dynamic, but also the employee/employer dynamic and the relation of the server in question to his ability to own his work product, in other words, server as deploying capital versus as working for a wage. Anyway, in a world of ossified ideology it is as disconcerting to see such an unnuanced view of an important topic as it is hopeful to see people thinking about it and discussing it.


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## Zwiefel (Sep 30, 2013)

What about adding a second gratuity line, for tipping BOH? Let the diner choose where the money goes.


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## Lefty (Sep 30, 2013)

I worked both front and back of house. My rule was give $5 per line cook, $10 per chef. It isn't much, but once I started doing it, the other servers followed suit pretty quickly. All in all, I'd be out about $30 per shift, in tips, but that pales in comparison to the $200 I'd take home. With 5 servers doing the same, it was a decent little take home for the cooks. Not great, but ok. 

Needless to say, my heart was always with the BOH and I always felt like a trader when I worked up front.


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## franzb69 (Sep 30, 2013)

> the disparity between what FOH takes home and BOH takes home needs to change, thats for sure.



most absolutely.


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## JBroida (Oct 1, 2013)

i've been pushing the concept of tipping out back of the house here in LA among chefs for about 2 years... either that or having a way to tip them separately.


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## brainsausage (Oct 1, 2013)

A couple of Oregonites just moved to Maine, and starting working at our new joint. They were utterly shocked that tipping out the BOH wasn't SOP. I'm not a big fan of forced gratuity. I am a big fan of sharing the fecking wealth. I've worked both sides, and know the weight they both carry. One isn't necessarily more than the other. Lots of factors to consider on both sides. But no matter how you break it down- there's a huuuuuge disparity of wealth. It's effed up.


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## mzer (Oct 1, 2013)

It's important to realize, or remember, that pay is never related to amount of labor or hardness of work, it is related to marginal product. In a lot of cases the simple fact that front of the house is customer facing means that they add more value to the business even if they don't work that hard, and in back of the house hard work doesn't change the fact that many line positions are basically plug in. Not saying it is how we would like things to be if we were benevolent gods, just that it is important to understand things through the lens of how we understand compensation on a larger scale.


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## labor of love (Oct 1, 2013)

mzer said:


> In a lot of cases the simple fact that front of the house is customer facing means that they add more value to the business even if they don't work that hard, and in back of the house hard work doesn't change the fact that many line positions are basically plug in.



at the same time viewership of pseudo chef/foodie shows is at an all time high. not trying to get in a pissing contest over whos job is more important in any particular restaurant, but people dine out primarily for the food,not the service. i think its pretty respected among the civilians that the BOH talent is a better gauge of the percieved quality of a restaurant rather than the service. then again, im sorta biased :biggrin:


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## gic (Oct 1, 2013)

Chez Pannise in Berkeley where I live has been doing this more or less forever however I don't know if any of it goes to the BOH, does anyone know...


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## mzer (Oct 1, 2013)

labor of love said:


> at the same time viewership of pseudo chef/foodie shows is at an all time high. not trying to get in a pissing contest over whos job is more important in any particular restaurant, but people dine out primarily for the food,not the service. i think its pretty respected among the civilians that the BOH talent is a better gauge of the percieved quality of a restaurant rather than the service. then again, im sorta biased :biggrin:



Yeah, I'm not trying to argue, because I don't disagree with you in theory and because I spent a good part of my younger adult years on a line and none in the front of the house, so I obviously agree in some way there too. However, read Yelp! reviews and others and see if you think most people have any damn clue about what makes food good. I think that most watchers of Top Chef or whatever are watching for sporting and drama reasons, but what do I know, I can't stand them. What I am saying, I guess, is that people might think they care about the food more, but they often can't tell, whereas they can tell about good service, and money spent tends to be a better indicator of reality than words, especially when sticking to words reflecting something less than truth gives off a good bit of connoisseurship and social cache.


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## Korin_Mari (Oct 1, 2013)

Zwiefel said:


> What about adding a second gratuity line, for tipping BOH? Let the diner choose where the money goes.



lus1: Definitely. Food can be great, service can be questionable. No need to make both sides suffer.


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## mzer (Oct 1, 2013)

FWIW, the history of gratuity is that it is paid in personal service encounters and not for products. I don't see how adding gratuity to a product, say food, is going to work. Social norms can certainly be created, but this seems like kind of a clumsy one.


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## Zwiefel (Oct 1, 2013)

mzer said:


> FWIW, the history of gratuity is that it is paid in personal service encounters and not for products. I don't see how adding gratuity to a product, say food, is going to work. Social norms can certainly be created, but this seems like kind of a clumsy one.



That's a good point...and BoH isn't likely to know which item was sent to your table, nor even that this is your 25th visit to the restaurant. Seems like that would have to be addressed for there to be a service opportunity there.


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## mano (Oct 1, 2013)

People don't see going to a restaurant as buying a product; it's "entertainment." Tipping is usually based on satisfaction with the server, but sometimes the food (it's a product, but I don't think it's perceived the way you mean) affects the tip.

BOH should get a cut of the action.


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## JMJones (Oct 1, 2013)

I don't understand the whole tipping thing anyway. I have never worked in a restaurant, so I may not have a full perspective. I am not socially expected to tip my electrician, children's daycare provider, my doctor, person who helps me find something at the store ect. Why is it tied to the one service of taking my order, bringing it out and keeping my drink full? 

That being said, I typically tip a standard 20% when eating out. Even if the service is not great, I figure that the restaurant it not paying the servers a living wage and there is a very good chance were not trying to provide inadequate service or being lazy , stuff just happens. 

Having to rely on "gracious" tippers and getting stiffed by cheapskates must suck.


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## labor of love (Oct 1, 2013)

JMJones said:


> I don't understand the whole tipping thing anyway. I have never worked in a restaurant, so I may not have a full perspective. I am not socially expected to tip my electrician, children's daycare provider, my doctor, person who helps me find something at the store ect. Why is it tied to the one service of taking my order, bringing it out and keeping my drink full?
> 
> That being said, I typically tip a standard 20% when eating out. Even if the service is not great, I figure that the restaurant it not paying the servers a living wage and there is a very good chance were not trying to provide inadequate service or being lazy , stuff just happens.
> 
> Having to rely on "gracious" tippers and getting stiffed by cheapskates must suck.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ


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## Asteger (Oct 1, 2013)

labor of love said:


> people dine out primarily for the food,not the service. i think its pretty respected among the civilians that the BOH talent is a better gauge of the percieved quality of a restaurant rather than the service.





JMJones said:


> I don't understand the whole tipping thing anyway. I have never worked in a restaurant, so I may not have a full perspective. I am not socially expected to tip my electrician, children's daycare provider, my doctor, person who helps me find something at the store ect. Why is it tied to the one service of taking my order, bringing it out and keeping my drink full?



Both good points. Agreed. 

Myself, I don't live in the States and so don't have to worry about the 20% so much. I think if service is good then, fine, perhaps round up the bill when you pay. But 20%? That's a lot. And of course it all depends on where you are.

Of course there are many countries where you never tip in restos and where service can be perfectly fine. Must be a breath of fresh air if you're not used to that and, whoa, you suddenly find that you've just eaten and that you only need to pay what you're supposed to. To me the mandatory tipping culture that exists in North America is pretty odd indeed.


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## WildBoar (Oct 1, 2013)

The 'mandatory' tipping in the US is because the servers are typically paid around/ less than minimum wage. In many other countries the servers are paid better (which is reflected in the cost of the entrée, etc.) and tipping is not normal.


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## labor of love (Oct 1, 2013)

the government also taxes tips in the US. which means very often servers dont actually recieve any income through their paychecks and live enirely on their tips/tip share.


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## Asteger (Oct 1, 2013)

WildBoar said:


> The 'mandatory' tipping in the US is because the servers are typically paid around/ less than minimum wage. In many other countries the servers are paid better (which is reflected in the cost of the entrée, etc.) and tipping is not normal.



Yes, of course  I'm not so sure about servers being paid better in many other places, however. I think I they often still tend to get paid minimally, more along the lines of the crew in the kitchen.


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## bahamaroot (Oct 1, 2013)

WildBoar said:


> The 'mandatory' tipping in the US is because the servers are typically paid around/ less than minimum wage. In many other countries the servers are paid better (which is reflected in the cost of the entrée, etc.) and tipping is not normal.


It is because of tips that they are only paid around/ less than minimum wage with tips making up the difference. Do away with tips and pay them a living wage would be the way to go.


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## mzer (Oct 1, 2013)

bahamaroot said:


> It is because of tips that they are only paid around/ less than minimum wage with tips making up the difference. Do away with tips and pay them a living wage would be the way to go.



Explain why it is the way to go. Most servers, given the choice, would probably pick tips because the average pay is higher. People other than the servers don't really matter in the calculus.


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## franzb69 (Oct 1, 2013)

> Do away with tips and pay them a living wage would be the way to go.



from the stuff i've watched minimum wage in your country is $7-$12 dollars an hour, depending on the state. and if it were an ideal world, it would be $22 dollars an hour by now, according to someone i watched on video that computed everything including inflation and stuff. 

i'd like to think, with the standard of living on your country among other things. it would be a very liveable wage indeed and eliminating tips altogether.


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## bahamaroot (Oct 2, 2013)

mzer said:


> Explain why it is the way to go. Most servers, given the choice, would probably pick tips because the average pay is higher. People other than the servers don't really matter in the calculus.


They would chose tips over minimun wage but no one said pay them minimum wage. I said pay them a living wage. You can't live on minimum wage. I wouldn't want my pay dependent on someones generosity at a given moment.


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## stevenStefano (Oct 2, 2013)

Where I work BOH gets a little tip money but we all share it equally and generally only get about £10 a week. The dishwashers get the same. I get the feeling the minimum wage over here in the UK is higher than that in the US though. I understand that FOH are responsible for a lot of how happy a customer is, but at the same time to get the damn food out there takes a lot of sacrifices FOH doesn't haven't to make, FOH basically have a much cushier job to be honest. I'm glat to get any extra money, but it is still a little grating when someone works about 8 hours a week and gets like 3-4 times the tips I get for a 50 or 60 hour week. Basically I think it should be more equal


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## Asteger (Oct 2, 2013)

I've worked out front and in back. I found it to be way harder in the back. Yet, generally it seemed servers figured they deserved all the extra $ they'd make and that they were somehow superior to the kitchen plebs. I hated almost the entire FoH. 

To be fair, though, there is often also an annoying pecking order in the kitchen, where anyone who cooked would then look down on the poor dishwashers, who were often the nicest staff in my experience. No justice in the world it seems.

I'm all for tips being shared equally amongst all the staff or, better, fair wages being paid and a no-tipping policy.


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## Vic Cardenas (Oct 3, 2013)

I'm all for a no tipping, living wage being paid to all the staff. I feel BOH deserves to make more money than FOH because they tend to work much harder and need more skill. Often times, this is not the case. Wages are all over the map all across the country for FOH positions but typically are the same all across the country for BOH. In a place like california, where the minimum wage for everybody, including servers, is $8 an hour. You have servers making their $8, plus whatever they pocket. Cooks in california, in alot of restaurants probably start at $8/hour and probably get no tips in in most cases. How is this remotely fair when you have two guys with no experience getting different jobs in a restaurant and the lucky guy who gets the FOH job ends up taking home 2,3,4 times as much? These servers in busy california restaurants probably make more than the chefs. Then you have a place like my state, Utah, where servers minimum wage is $2.13 an hour. $7.25 for BOH. In a slow restaurant, an experienced veteran server can be working for $7.25 an hour after mandatory tip credits, or what, maybe $9 an hour after figuring in their dismal tips for the day, which happens to be the same wage the chef is paying his new, inexperienced line cook. Maybe in this same restaurant, the chef (who obviously doesn't work very hard in a slow restaurant) is making $40,000 a year, for example. 

One place I worked here, at a ski resort, everybody all pretty much made the same wage. The FOH started at $8/hour and cooks started at 8/hour. I was the sous chef and I was making $10.50, I believe. The bartenders here started at $7.25 an hour. The way it was set up, the FOH would get tips and we would pool it and split it up evenly among FOH and BOH (my policy). One time, I had a big problem with one FOH that refused to give up her tips. She was probably making $20-30 an hour these few days this went on. My manager would not support me at first when I brought this to his attention. I was irate and almost quit because of his lack of support. Finally, he gave in and made her give them up. I always suspected she was pocketing about half of it after that. (Karma got her very quickly. She fell through a pocket in the snow and broke her ankle. LOL)... 

Also, our bartenders would participate in the pool. They made their $7.25/hour but they made more money then everybody else there with their tips. On busy days, which we would have quite often, they would take home $400-600 a night. They would cut me about 10-20% of their take for me to split up with the BOH because they did not have a bar back. Whenever they would get a food order, I would personally deliver the food to the guest in the bar in my chef's whites because the bartender's hands were usually full and they had no help. We ended up hiring a new bartender and I explained to her the (unofficial) policy about giving BOH a cut, since we were really helping them out when they got a food order. She refused to give me any money. I decided to show her exactly why she should stop being so greedy. Whenever she was working and I got a food order from her, I would cook the food, then I'd set it in the pass, only to let it die. 15-20 minutes would go by and of course when she was busy, I was usually very busy too. So, it's not like I was just letting her food die and I was just staring at it with nothing to do. I would let it sit. She would come rushing back, wondering what happened to her order. I would point to it and then she would have to take it shamefully to the guest. She never once asked me to re-fire it. I probably would have if she just asked. I did this a few times and then I started to take orders out to the guests for her just to show her what I normally do for the other bartenders. After that, she started tipping out the BOH like a good girl. We were still making much less money than her. If she had $600, she would give me $60 to split between 4-5 of us.


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## cnochef (Oct 3, 2013)

The fairest restaurant I ever worked at, servers made minimum wage and the cooks made about $7 more per hour. Even though that was the case, we tipped out a large percentage to the house, I believe it was 6% of our sales as a server. At that time, 15% tipping was the standard. So that was quite a substantial tip out and a great incentive to work your butt off to get better tips. The tip out was distributed to the bus people, hosts, bartenders and cooks based on hours worked and seniority. The managers also got a cut, but it was a much smaller share than the others, more symbolic than anything. Also, the cooks got free staff meals and a beer every night, whereas servers paid 50%. I think this was the best system I've seen so far as it promoted more kinship between the front and back of the house, rather than the typical animosity that results from servers earning so much. Basically, each department came to realize that they depended on the other for a living. When I opened my own restaurant, I copied this model with great success and low employee turnover.


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## cheezit (Oct 4, 2013)

I don't know, it's all good unless you're the server who sold only $1000 over 7 hours, received $180 in tips, and after tipping out bar, runner, s.a, BoH, hostess, and manager, you may be walking with $110, maybe? With so many hands in the pot taking the money you earned (let's be honest, people tip on the service of the restaurant provided by the server) for the restaurant, I can imagine it gets tough wanting to give it 100%.


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## Vic Cardenas (Oct 5, 2013)

Yeah, but poor Javier in the back was working those same 7 hours and gets paid $9 an hour 9x7= $63 take home pay - taxes. Poor Javier also has forgotten more about food than that server taking home $110 (not taxed since that's up to the server + hourly rate) will ever learn their entire life. I'd say the server can easily afford to tip out Javier a few bucks.


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## Midsummer (Oct 5, 2013)

cheezit said:


> I don't know, it's all good unless you're the server who sold only $1000 over 7 hours, received $180 in tips, and after tipping out bar, runner, s.a, BoH, hostess, and manager, you may be walking with $110, maybe? With so many hands in the pot taking the money you earned (let's be honest, people tip on the service of the restaurant provided by the server) for the restaurant, I can imagine it gets tough wanting to give it 100%.



I will be honest, I tip based on the cost of the meal (ie. I pay a percentage). I eat out where the meals are costly because of the quality of the product is superior. If I do eat somewhere less expensive; I pay the same percentage; even if the same amount of work was done and the last FN thing I want to think about on my evening off, where I am coughing up a boat load of money, is whether or not the wait staff is "being taken care of properly". One of the big reasons I go out is so I can *Forget these type of considerations*. I would be much happier if I did not even have to do the percentage math. And yes I would frequent a place with good food and marginal service way over a place with good service and poor product.


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## franzb69 (Oct 5, 2013)

> Yeah, but poor Javier in the back was working those same 7 hours and gets paid $9 an hour 9x7= $63 take home pay - taxes. Poor Javier also has forgotten more about food than that server taking home $110 (not taxed since that's up to the server + hourly rate) will ever learn their entire life. I'd say the server can easily afford to tip out Javier a few bucks.



amen to you sir!



> I would be much happier if I did not even have to do the percentage math. And yes I would frequent a place with good food and marginal service way over a place with good service and poor product.



i am the same, even after moving over to the back of the house after being in sales for years and years. (i still moonlight in sales every now and again! being a family business and all)


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## cheezit (Oct 5, 2013)

Its all about what you provide for the company and how many capable people are out there willing and able to do the same work. Servers do get taxed on credit transactions, you barely get cash now days. Anyway, differing opinions are fun.


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