# Naniwa pro400 or shapton glass500



## IsoJ (May 16, 2020)

Hoping to get a few opinions .

I would like to try Naniwa pro400 or Shapton glass 500 double thick(around the same price). Planning of using the stone as a starter and jump to shapton pro2000. Maybe use the stone for thinning/reprofiling progress too as a second or third stone.

My main sharpening setup at the moment is Naniwa pro800,3000 and Kitayama 8000. 

Other stones that I have:
Shapton glass 320, I use it mainly for my softer Zwillings etc., Feels a bit coarse as a starter stone for my other knives
Shapton Pro 120 used it few times for thinning 
Cerax 320 used it few times for thinning.
Cerax 1000 and Rika 5000, havent used them yet.

Which one would you get or neither and why?


----------



## M1k3 (May 16, 2020)

I haven't used that Naniwa. That said, I really like my Glass 500.


----------



## Doffen (May 16, 2020)

I have both (Chosera and standard GS500). Difficult to tell which are best. I like Naniva on white and blue steel, and shapton on pm steel. 
I think Naniwa have better feel and feedback.


----------



## IsoJ (May 16, 2020)

Doffen said:


> I have both (Chosera and standard GS500). Difficult to tell which are best. I like Naniva on white and blue steel, and shapton on pm steel.
> I think Naniwa have better feel and feedback.


Thanks. Does the naniwa feel coarser than sg or are they about the same?


----------



## Doffen (May 16, 2020)

I think they are similar.


----------



## daveb (May 16, 2020)

I'm a fan of the SP1000, 2000 and done progression. When I need the coarser grit I drop to the SG500. The 500 makes me want to try some of the other glass stones.


----------



## M1k3 (May 16, 2020)

daveb said:


> I'm a fan of the SP1000, 2000 and done progression. When I need the coarser grit I drop to the SG500. The 500 makes me want to try some of the other glass stones.


I like the 4k also..


----------



## Ruso (May 16, 2020)

Naniwa Pro 400 should be around 600grit. Naniwas Pro are finer than the regular JIS scale. I do not have SG500 but I like Pro 400 for what it is. If I have to speculate, SG 500 is faster and more aggressive. Naniwa prolly has better feedback and feel.


----------



## Runner_up (May 16, 2020)

Agree with the above that the Naniwa has better feedback and feel. I do think the SG500 is a fast stone and I overall really like it. It is one of my most used stones and will always be a fixture in my lineup.


----------



## nevrknow (May 16, 2020)

Nothing wrong with these recs. Personally, I love the glass stones for my PM Steel EDC knives.

I like some of the Naniwas for my kitchen knives.


----------



## bahamaroot (May 16, 2020)

The Naniwa has better feel and feedback and they are very similar in speed.


----------



## IsoJ (May 17, 2020)

I like the feel and feedback a bit more than the speed at least for now, mind may change in time. So propably going to get the Naniwa from Dictum.


----------



## Scooter (May 17, 2020)




----------



## IsoJ (May 18, 2020)

Thanks for the opinions, I ordered the Naniwa


----------



## Doffen (May 18, 2020)

You will not be disappointed. For my most used knives, and I want some speed, this is what I bring up.


----------



## inferno (May 26, 2020)

IsoJ said:


> Hoping to get a few opinions .
> 
> I would like to try Naniwa pro400 or Shapton glass 500 double thick(around the same price). Planning of using the stone as a starter and jump to shapton pro2000. Maybe use the stone for thinning/reprofiling progress too as a second or third stone.
> 
> ...



the correct answer here is "both"


----------



## zizirex (May 27, 2020)

I have both, the Naniwa pro cuts faster but the feedback and feel are not as nice as Shapton Glass especially when it's new, the first layer is horrible as a brick. The Shapton Glass is slightly slower but finishes nicer than the Naniwa. Naniwa Pro is better if you want to create a new bevel or sharpen a really dull knife, but if you want a nicer progression, SG is more versatile.

For me the Inbetweeners is the Morihei Hi 500, it cuts as fast as Naniwa Pro, but finishes like Shapton Glass. the downsides are it will soak up water for the first sharpening and dishes faster than all of three but still not as crazy as Cerax (which is super duper king of dishes).


----------



## inferno (May 28, 2020)

i dont actually have the naniwa/chosera but i have had the 500 glass for several years and i noticed that when it was brand new it cut like crazy. and then after the first flattening it cuts maybe half as fast. but finer.

same thing but even worse with the glass 220 and pro 220. 

so these stones really need to be flattened and resurfaced with loose grit SiC powder on glass plates. only then will you get the speed back. otherwise the 220 behaves likes a quite fast 500. and the 500 like a slightly faster 1k. when i reality they are at the very least twice as fast.

so with stones under 1k, especially harder stones, its very important to get the surface roughness right, because this is basically whats doing the actual cutting, not the grit number. 

a shapton pro 220 will eventually assume the really agressive surface condition if you just work it and leave the slurry on there. maybe takes 10 minutes.
but after 10 minutes its time for flattening since the stone dishes. and if you do this with diamonds then youre back to square one again. i only have the 220 glass and pro and no other really coarse ones (except diamonds), but i guess its the same with all of them. loose grit...


----------



## inferno (May 28, 2020)

and the diamond stones gets finer too. my diaflat plate feels like a 3-400 or so now. and my dmt 325 feels like a 1k, and my atoma 400 just feels slow. and quite ******.


----------



## Ruso (May 28, 2020)

I heard there are some health concern with SiC grits. What’s your take on it? Do you have a dedicated sharpening place like garage or basement?


----------



## M1k3 (May 28, 2020)

Ruso said:


> I heard there are some health concern with SiC grits. What’s your take on it? Do you have a dedicated sharpening place like garage or basement?


Loose SiC isn't Skittles.


----------



## Ruso (May 28, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Loose SiC isn't Skittles.


I don't eat either. Care to elaborate?


----------



## M1k3 (May 28, 2020)

Ruso said:


> I don't eat either. Care to elaborate?


Don't eat loose SiC. Or grind it up into a fine powder and throw it into the air.


----------



## Ruso (May 28, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> .....Or grind it up into a fine powder and throw it into the air.


You do this with Skittles?


----------



## M1k3 (May 28, 2020)

Ruso said:


> You do this with Skittles?


Yeah and citric acid....


----------



## Ruso (May 28, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Yeah and citric acid....


I think you are doing it wrong


----------



## M1k3 (May 28, 2020)

Ruso said:


> I think you are doing it wrong


How else will the Skittles and citric acid burn the eyes of those around me?


----------



## inferno (May 29, 2020)

Ruso said:


> I heard there are some health concern with SiC grits. What’s your take on it? Do you have a dedicated sharpening place like garage or basement?



you basically sprinkle the powder on a wet glass surface so i'd say the risk of inhaling the powder is pretty slim. all ceramics are dangerous to inhale but its not very easy to do when working with wet stones. its the same as stone slurry, same "risks" involved.

after the sound changes to a smoother sound the grit is worn out and you add more (edit: well the grit gets finer, it breaks down). this can take as little as 30-60 seconds with some very hard stones (spydercos).

user stefan wolf on youtube has many videos where he flattens and conditions stones with SiC.
skip to 5 minutes in to see how it works.


----------



## inferno (May 29, 2020)

i think it might be *relatively* safe to eat it. or it might not. its a very inert chemical. takes about 2500 deg C to kill it with fire at least


----------



## Ruso (May 29, 2020)

inferno said:


> you basically sprinkle the powder on a wet glass surface so i'd say the risk of inhaling the powder is pretty slim. all ceramics are dangerous to inhale but its not very easy to do when working with wet stones. its the same as stone slurry, same "risks" involved.
> 
> after the sound changes to a smoother sound the grit is worn out and you add more (edit: well the grit gets finer, it breaks down). this can take as little as 30-60 seconds with some very hard stones (spydercos).
> 
> ...



I still have SiC powder and I used SiC before. I use glass plate as well for this. The problem is that I sharpen using sink bridge and by proxy I was using SiC in the kitchen. 
After reading about SiC and safe handling I decided to stop using it in the Kitchen. Also many guidelines allude to possible cancer concerns even just by being in contact with SiC powder, let alone inhaling ( the worst) or eating eat.

So dunno, I kinda thinking to move SiC operation to balcony and use gloves which would suck when using SP 120 :/ so many trips to refresh the stone.


----------



## Knife2meatu (May 29, 2020)

Ruso said:


> [...] using SP 120 :/ so many trips to refresh the stone.



What are thinning that your SP120 needs refreshing? Oh wait, I'm thinking Shapton Pro, but perhaps you meant Sigma Power?


----------



## M1k3 (May 29, 2020)

Shapton Pro 120 basically needs refreshing on everything except stainless cladding. Stainless cladding causes the stone to release grit.


----------



## inferno (May 29, 2020)

i just dont understand how you would get "exposed" in any kind of way to SiC when you sprinkle it on a wet glass plate. 

also i dont think its more or less dangerous than aluminum oxide powder (any synth stone slurry) cbn/diamond/SiN/boron carbide/etc etc etc
and also jnats are silicon crystals if i'm not mistaking, and its not good either.

from what i've gathered, all sharp crystals and fibers (such as carbon/kevlar etc) that enters your lungs can cause cancer by prolonged irritation of the outer layer of the lungs. but if you can sharpen your knives on water stones and not die from that, i guess its safe to flatten on wet SiC too. 

SiC stones have been used for millions of years  ok not really but at leasty for 100 or so. sure they have been traditionally used with oil. and thats a petroleum product. and almost all petroleum products such as oils and greases are known to cause cancer with skin contact. i'd say this is much much more likely to kill you. by a factor of like 10-100x.

---------

i work with hydraulic stuff and at work most of the people work without gloves. but i read the msds for hydraulic oil. and its a known carcinogen. as all petroleum oils are. and they are readily absorbed too. so i always work with nitrile gloves. always. 

-----------

either way, stefan wolf has been using loose grit SiC for probaly at least 10 years and he's still alive. so i guess its kinda safe


----------



## inferno (May 29, 2020)

Ruso said:


> Also many guidelines allude to possible cancer concerns even just by being in contact with SiC powder,



this is most likely complete BS, like you would get cancer by touching SiC. its one of the most inert chemicals in the entire universe!!


----------



## inferno (May 29, 2020)

ruso you probably dont need to run in and out of the balcony with the pro120 every 5 minutes. 

if you get the coarse surface on there and keep at least some of the 120 stone slurry on the stone while sharpening the stone will basically condition it self with that slurry. and you keep that aggressive surface.

but you need to use the blade to direct the wear on the stone. you use the parts that are higher. until the stone is flat (-ish) again. 

if i dont need a truly flat coarse stone (and i very seldom do) i just flatten the stone by sharpening on different parts of it, since coarse stones basically just melt away in front of you anyway, its not so hard to see where you need to use the stone.

but sometimes you still need to flatten it, and then it turns to a 500 in speed. and then you need to get the powder out. to "resurface" it. and then its the same sh1t all over again. use the parts thats higher, but sooner or later you have to flatten it. 

all coarse stones work like this. they are fast because they shed the blunt abrasives fast. to expose sharp fresh abrasive. there is no free lunch.


----------



## big D (May 29, 2020)

inferno said:


> i dont actually have the naniwa/chosera but i have had the 500 glass for several years and i noticed that when it was brand new it cut like crazy. and then after the first flattening it cuts maybe half as fast. but finer.
> 
> same thing but even worse with the glass 220 and pro 220.
> 
> ...


SiC powder is probably less expensive, but reading this makes me wonder if after flattening, would using another flat stone of same grit against the flattened one bring it back to prime?
Edited to add: Perhaps with coarse stones there is something to consider flattening between 3 identical stones. Use each and then flatten between them to a workable flatness on all 3?
Thoughts?
D.


----------



## inferno (May 29, 2020)

using even the same grit stone on a coarse stone will not bring it back to original state imo. it will become way way too fine. 

you need 50-60-80 grit powder to get a 220 going well imo. the 220 will still work when flattened with a diamond stone but it will be ultra slow compared to new.


----------



## big D (May 29, 2020)

I was thinking the coarseness of the flattening plate was the issue. Interesting that something coarser is needed. I shall have to experiment some. Thank you.
D.


----------



## Ruso (May 29, 2020)

inferno said:


> using even the same grit stone on a coarse stone will not bring it back to original state imo. it will become way way too fine.
> 
> you need 50-60-80 grit powder to get a 220 going well imo. the 220 will still work when flattened with a diamond stone but it will be ultra slow compared to new.


I have the same exact experience. Flattening plates or same grit SiC wont refresh the surface. It just keeps feeling mellow. 80-90 SiC does the trick for me.


----------



## zizirex (May 30, 2020)

My buddy Francis from Knifewear told me to use this thing to refresh a rough stone. it works great and it's cheap if it's mess up.


----------



## KingShapton (May 31, 2020)

zizirex said:


> My buddy Francis from Knifewear told me to use this thing to refresh a rough stone. it works great and it's cheap if it's mess up.


Can't find it online, can you post a link?


----------



## stringer (May 31, 2020)

big D said:


> SiC powder is probably less expensive, but reading this makes me wonder if after flattening, would using another flat stone of same grit against the flattened one bring it back to prime?
> Edited to add: Perhaps with coarse stones there is something to consider flattening between 3 identical stones. Use each and then flatten between them to a workable flatness on all 3?
> Thoughts?
> D.



This is my philosophy. I use SiC on granite of they get really bad but mostly I just rub stones together. I group them into categories. I have about a half dozen 5$ Chinese diamond plates. They are rarely used and I've never purchased an atoma. I just segregate my stones by category and I have at least 3 in each category so that by rotating them I keep them all relatively flat. Synthetic oil stones with other synthetic oil stones, Japanese soakers with other soakers, Shapton Glass and pro with each other. I have tomo nagura for my finishers. Jasper to clean and condition my jasper. A little piece of surgical black ark to treat my translucent Ark. Coticules with coticules, etc. With some I use the slurry. But for other it's just to keep the surface fresh and clean and to aid some in extending the period between flattenings.

Here's my Ark with Ark nagura.


----------



## inferno (May 31, 2020)

KingShapton said:


> Can't find it online, can you post a link?



its a truing/dressing tool for grinding wheels.





Diamond grinding wheel dressing tool at DuckDuckGo


DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.




duckduckgo.com





now these are actually the not so good ones for truing grinding wheels. you want ones with maybe 5-20 longer diamond sticks embedded in steel. they last longer. they are called multipoint dressing/truing tools. 

the plated ones will be better for stones obviously since the other ones below would most likely be almost useless.


----------



## inferno (May 31, 2020)

btw for higher grit stones, you can use whatever to clean/flatten them. from maybe 1k and up it doesn't really matter. i usually rub a 1k on a 4k and similar to expose fresh abrasive/clean them before use.


----------



## zizirex (May 31, 2020)

inferno said:


> its a truing/dressing tool for grinding wheels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the reason I use it is that it is 36 grit that could scratch a surface of the rough whetstone and help it cut again. It cost CAD $13 at Lee Valley and probably less in Amazon. I have a 200 grit SC stone that starts to clog up, and refresh it with this one and viola!! it starts to cut perfectly again.


----------



## inferno (May 31, 2020)

i'm gonna try one too. a coated coarse one.


----------



## robrpb (May 31, 2020)

POWERTEC 71003 Diamond Grinding Wheel Dresser. Both Amazon and Home Depot sell it for $9.97.


----------



## big D (May 31, 2020)

stringer said:


> This is my philosophy. I use SiC on granite of they get really bad but mostly I just rub stones together. I group them into categories. I have about a half dozen 5$ Chinese diamond plates. They are rarely used and I've never purchased an atoma. I just segregate my stones by category and I have at least 3 in each category so that by rotating them I keep them all relatively flat. Synthetic oil stones with other synthetic oil stones, Japanese soakers with other soakers, Shapton Glass and pro with each other. I have tomo nagura for my finishers. Jasper to clean and condition my jasper. A little piece of surgical black ark to treat my translucent Ark. Coticules with coticules, etc. With some I use the slurry. But for other it's just to keep the surface fresh and clean and to aid some in extending the period between flattenings.
> 
> Here's my Ark with Ark nagura.
> 
> View attachment 82317



Rubbing stones together is all I have been doing so far also. Got an atoma and have yet to use it. Actually was considering getting a duplicate, one for shapeing and the other for flattening, but going to have to get some SiC and give it a try.. Heck Just sharpened and forgot I had a new 220 sitting there...gettin old and feeble minded. )


----------



## kayman67 (Jun 13, 2020)

So I've changed my routine a bit. Instead of Naniwa Professional 400, I used Nanohone 400 and instead of jumping to Naniwa Professional 2000 first, I was able use the Naniwa Professional 5000 and get a rather clean almost mirror finish bevel. Not possible to same effect directly from Naniwa Pro 400. This fine texture was right away one of the reasons I liked Nanohone 400 so much. 
Still, Naniwa was more focused, more predictable, with better control. I had to be more careful and manage slurry a lot more with Nanohone. 

Now, for my application here, I've done about a dozen knives, but can't compare with Shapton as for recurve blades it is rather useless.


----------



## Bobby2shots (Jun 13, 2020)

Ruso,

SiC may be an eye or nose "irritant" if air-borne particles permeate the atmosphere in which you're working, and you inhale enough of those particles. (as ANY substance would). This certainly would not apply to using heavy-grit and wet SiC that you'd be using for flattening stones on plate glass.

Where does your reference to SiC being a possible carcinogen come from? The only evidence I've seen was from the New Jersey Dept. of health, in which they state something along the line of "MAY POSSIBLY cause cancer in animals,,, and they go on to say "but there is no actual evidence of this", nor how an animal would come into contact with, or have the desire to, inhale or ingest SiC.


----------

