# A 100$~ Wa-Gyuto



## guyskr (Sep 19, 2013)

Hi everybody,
I'm interested in purchasing a Wa-Gyuto for around 100-120$.
I already have a ARCO's knife, and want to go another direction.

I'm working at a restaurant, doing staff from cutting tomatoes or sweet potato to cut off the fat from a 7 pound piece of meat.
I need a true working horse, so a stainless steel is looking only logical to me, because I'm sure that in the stress of work I won't have the time to clean my knife after every other cut.

I did a little bit of research, and came back with two options, the Tojiro DP and the Richmond Artifex, but if you have other recommendation that will be great! 

In the subject of sharpening, I don't have any experience in this field, but don't have a problem learning, but I don't want to spend more then like 30 dollar for a sharper (I do have the accesses to one just like this http://spatulascorkscrews.typepad.com/.a/6a00e54fc0864288330112791e6be128a4-pi), but I do know a place that sharp knifes for around 6 dollars!


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## Dusty (Sep 19, 2013)

Ok. A wa-gyuto is a gyuto with a Japanese handle. Both of the knives you listed are yo-gyutos: western handled knives. 

Let me start by saying that I'd avoid an artifex, without a significant tune-up by an experienced sharpener, they are not great cutters. 

If you're happy with a western handled knife have a look into the fujiwara fkm. A fujiwara will out perform a Tojiro dp and is a little cheaper. Where are you located?


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## NO ChoP! (Sep 19, 2013)

A coworker of mine has a wa Artifex. It has a very nice handle for the price point. It did have a pronounced belly. It was relatively a thin knife, but I thought the edge was quite ax like, surprisingly. Also the giant Richmond logo is oft putting to me.

The wa Tojiro fit and finsh and handle may leave a little to be desired, but overall it should be a good cutter, and they know what they're doing with the steel.

An honest assessment, with no grudge towards CKTG, I would go for the Tojiro. If it turns out you love it, you can rehandle it down the road with a nice burnt chestnut or something from Jon or Maxim.

Also check out Sugimoto and Yoshihiro. They both make affordable wa's...


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## Lefty (Sep 19, 2013)

My ticket reads, "Row 7, Seat 16". Should provide a nice view....


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## NO ChoP! (Sep 19, 2013)

:rofl2:

and you should be safe from flying objects seven rows back....


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## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

NO ChoP! said:


> A coworker of mine has a wa Artifex. It has a very nice handle for the price point. It did have a pronounced belly. It was relatively a thin knife, but I thought the edge was quite ax like, surprisingly. Also the giant Richmond logo is oft putting to me.
> 
> The wa Tojiro fit and finsh and handle may leave a little to be desired, but overall it should be a good cutter, and they know what they're doing with the steel.
> 
> ...



I think you're being too nice about the logo on the wa artifex. If I bought the wa artifex, I'd definitely sand it off asap. I thought Fujiwara made the knives and the edge on the FKH I had was decent OOTB.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 19, 2013)

Dusty said:


> Ok. A wa-gyuto is a gyuto with a Japanese handle. Both of the knives you listed are yo-gyutos: western handled knives.
> 
> Let me start by saying that I'd avoid an artifex, without a significant tune-up by an experienced sharpener, they are not great cutters.
> 
> If you're happy with a western handled knife have a look into the fujiwara fkm. A fujiwara will out perform a Tojiro dp and is a little cheaper. Where are you located?



Dusty,

Just want to let you know that both the Artifex and the Tojiro are available as a wa-handled knife. The forum software won'e allow linking to the former, but here's a link to the Tojiro:

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/tojiro-hammered-black

Regards,

Rick


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## kartman35 (Sep 19, 2013)

but that's carbon and he said he wants stainless..


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## NO ChoP! (Sep 19, 2013)

It is hands down the largest logo I've ever seen.

And Tojiro does make DP wa gyutos in vg10....


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## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

There is a Tojiro DP wa-gyuto you can find on the site that's not allowed to be linked. I thought Korin sold Tojiros but I couldn't find them on their site.


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## daveb (Sep 19, 2013)

You could prob do worse than one of Jon's Gesshin stainless series. Marketed as filling a niche for an inexpensive work knife with a little QC thrown in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwj7ABLWpVY#t=100


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## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

guyskr said:


> Hi everybody,
> I'm interested in purchasing a Wa-Gyuto for around 100-120$.
> I already have a ARCO's knife, and want to go another direction.
> 
> ...



My advice to you is don't use the sharpener you linked. As for the place that sharpens knives for 6 bucks I can't say if its a good idea or not, but it would be preferable if you learned to maintain your own knife. The cheapest solution is a king combo stone, but it'll still be over your 30$ limit.


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## joetbn (Sep 19, 2013)

I really, really hate to say it, but isn't it possible that since the wa-artifex is made by Fujiwara it might be pretty good? I can't them screwing up the grind as much as the western handle one everyone here says is an axe. Handle does look nice, sand off that awful logo on the blade of course. I bet it's thinner behind the edge than your average German knife that costs three times as much.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 19, 2013)

joetbn said:


> I really, really hate to say it, but isn't it possible that since the wa-artifex is made by Fujiwara it might be pretty good? I can't them screwing up the grind as much as the western handle one everyone here says is an axe. Handle does look nice, sand off that awful logo on the blade of course. I bet it's thinner behind the edge than your average German knife that costs three times as much.



You might think so, but sadly, that's not the case. And the logo is not screened on like a Sakai Yusuke, but etched in so that significant metal must be removed to get rid of it.





Rick


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## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

I'd spend a little more and get the Gesshin Uraku then.


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## guyskr (Sep 19, 2013)

Is the Gesshin Uraku really worth those extra bucks?
I'm pretty short in cash and would prefer to pay 120$ top.


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## Dusty (Sep 19, 2013)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Dusty,
> 
> Just want to let you know that both the Artifex and the Tojiro are available as a wa-handled knife. The forum software won'e allow linking to the former, but here's a link to the Tojiro:
> 
> ...



Cheers Rick,

Happy to stand corrected. 

In that case I think the Tojiro would probably be a fit in this case.


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## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

guyskr said:


> Is the Gesshin Uraku really worth those extra bucks?
> I'm pretty short in cash and would prefer to pay 120$ top.



The Tojiro DP with wa handle is $99. You can find the link by doing a google search.


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## MowgFace (Sep 19, 2013)

guyskr said:


> Is the Gesshin Uraku really worth those extra bucks?
> I'm pretty short in cash and would prefer to pay 120$ top.



The Gesshin Uraku is definately worth the extra bucks. Think of it $125 for the knife $30 for the saya.

Mowgs


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## Baby Huey (Sep 19, 2013)

MowgFace said:


> The Gesshin Uraku is definately worth the extra bucks. Think of it $125 for the knife $30 for the saya.
> 
> Mowgs



Thought all the Gesshin Uraku came with sayas. Unless I read wrong.


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## MowgFace (Sep 19, 2013)

Baby Huey said:


> Thought all the Gesshin Uraku came with sayas. Unless I read wrong.



All except the new Kurouchi ones. I was just trying to put the price in perspective. Buying a saya for a knife that does not come with one runs about $30. So i try to take that into account when a knife comes with one.

Mowgs


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## Baby Huey (Sep 19, 2013)

MowgFace said:


> All except the new Kurouchi ones. I was just trying to put the price in perspective. Buying a saya for a knife that does not come with one runs about $30. So i try to take that into account when a knife comes with one.
> 
> Mowgs



Ahh kk think he wanted the stainless which would be 155, but the price is pretty much the same as the stainless comes with the matching saya.


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## MowgFace (Sep 19, 2013)

Baby Huey said:


> Ahh kk think he wanted the stainless which would be 155, but the price is pretty much the same as the stainless comes with the matching saya.



Agreed. $125 (knife) $30 (saya) = $155 :cool2:


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## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

Baby Huey said:


> Thought all the Gesshin Uraku came with sayas. Unless I read wrong.



I think the 240mm is 155 bucks.


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## Ruso (Sep 19, 2013)

What if OP does not want a saya. He better save this $30 and buy some beers or a better stone for example.


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## MowgFace (Sep 19, 2013)

Ruso said:


> What if OP does not want a saya. He better save this $30 and buy some beers or a better stone for example.



Very good point. Guyskr, what are your thoughts on a saya? Still, I think the Uraku is worth the extra money.


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## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

MowgFace said:


> Very good point. Guyskr, what are your thoughts on a saya? Still, I think the Uraku is worth the extra money.



THE OP hasn't addressed how he will maintain his knife yet, might have to budget in some stones also.


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## mhlee (Sep 19, 2013)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> You might think so, but sadly, that's not the case. And the logo is not screened on like a Sakai Yusuke, but etched in so that significant metal must be removed to get rid of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rick - Did you take that picture of the wa-Artifex?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 19, 2013)

mhlee said:


> Rick - Did you take that picture of the wa-Artifex?



Guilty as charged. Yes, I did.


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 20, 2013)

Guyskr No matter what you pay for a knife it will get dull.If you want to learn freehand on a whetstone,you can for free watching U-Tubes.Using you knife on the job,it is your most important tool,ease of use with a good workhorse knife is huge.

Having someone else sharpen your knife instead of learning to freehand puts you at a big disadvantage.All you need is a knife ,stone & skill.

The Gesshin Uraku is a no frills all around workhorse knife.At 155.00 wt. a Saya is a good deal.


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## guyskr (Sep 20, 2013)

Thanks to you all for your help.
I do thinking about buying myself a water stone with my knife, whichever he'll be.
Does one king 1000 stone is enough or should I get another one?

About the saya, it's isn't something I meant to buy, or I would have bought otherwise, but it's pretty nice thing to have!


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## chinacats (Sep 20, 2013)

you could always start with a king 1k/6k as it has been a very good beginner water stone for many around these parts...it probably costs about the same as the 1k


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## panda (Sep 20, 2013)

get a fujiwara fkm and a king 1000, call it a day.


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## scotchef38 (Sep 20, 2013)

I just received a Masamoto 270mm stainless in the mail.It was bought through ebay and wasnt advertised as a Masamoto but i recognised the Kanji.I dont know what steel it is made from ,but it has a western grind,i.e. quite thick on the spine but it is quite thin on the edge.It was $60 AUD inclusive of postage so I couldnt resist.Havent used it yet but it looks ok.I dont know how to post a link to an ebay item or i would.If someone can tell me how i will be happy to share.


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## James (Sep 20, 2013)

Tanaka gin3 and vg10 are pretty decent from what I've read.


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## Pdksays (Sep 21, 2013)

Gesshin uraku stainless 210 or 240 wa-gyuto, I bought the 240 and it's my workhorse, it's $35 more than you want to spend but it's a great knife, nice edge retention, sharpens well, and super thin behind the edge.


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## guyskr (Sep 22, 2013)

I know someone who have this kind of shaper: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00005OL3L/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
I saw that Mac is the manufacturer, so is this sharper good enough for Japanese knifes?


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## guyskr (Sep 23, 2013)

bump


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## harlock0083 (Sep 23, 2013)

guyskr said:


> bump



Well it depends on what you mean by good enough. If you're going to spend 40 bucks on that sharpener you're better off getting a combo stone.


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## guyskr (Sep 23, 2013)

I know someone who have one of those, so it wouldn't cost me a dime.
This sharpener will give me good results?


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## Dusty (Sep 23, 2013)

There are big advantages to freehand sharpening on waterstones. A minosharp will sharpen the edge of the knife - albeit poorly. Sharpening freehand on waterstones allows you to slowly thin your knife with each sharpening, to maintain the knifes geometry. A knifes geometry is the single biggest contributing factor to a knifes performance, after repeated sharpenings with the minosharp, the edge will be substantially thicker and the knife won't cut as well as it did when it was new.

Pick up king 1000 grit stone on ebay, cheaper than the minosharp and you'll be able to maintain your knife a lot better, and gain a really cool skill, that most here probably find very enjoyable.


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## chinacats (Sep 23, 2013)

No to minosharp, it is bad for your knives.


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## guyskr (Sep 23, 2013)

So a 1000+6000 king's water stone is a good starting point, which will give me good results?
Sharpening do seems like a nice art to learn, but not the kind i'm willing to pay 150$ in advance.


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## NO ChoP! (Sep 23, 2013)

I think the king 800/4k is a better combo than 1.2/6k....they just seem like better stones.


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## harlock0083 (Sep 23, 2013)

guyskr said:


> So a 1000+6000 king's water stone is a good starting point, which will give me good results?
> Sharpening do seems like a nice art to learn, but not the kind i'm willing to pay 150$ in advance.



It doesn't cost 150 bucks for a king combo stone, atleast not the ones I've seen.


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## guyskr (Sep 23, 2013)

I know they don't cost that much, my question is if they are good enough, or does I need to spend something like 150$ to get nice stones.


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## MowgFace (Sep 23, 2013)

guyskr said:


> I know they don't cost that much, my question is if they are good enough, or does I need to spend something like 150$ to get nice stones.



It depends on how you plan to use them. If sharpening is something that you are interested in or can see yourself getting interested in, it might be worth your time and money to invest more in the beginning then to drop $30-40 on a stone you plan on replacing.

King stones are very usable, and good to learn on. I myself started with a king 800/4000 and i still use it today! I have gotten stones since, but theres nothing wrong with a little king love.

Mowgs


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 23, 2013)

Yes. Your knife will get just as sharp on a cheaper stone. The reason people shell out for fancy stones is they might cut faster, dish slower, feel better, make mud, or are splash and go. They'll make the process of sharpening easier or more enjoyable, but you'll get the same results (unless you want to split hairs, literally and/or figuratively).


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## harlock0083 (Sep 23, 2013)

guyskr said:


> I know they don't cost that much, my question is if they are good enough, or does I need to spend something like 150$ to get nice stones.



It'll be more than good enough with a king combo stone. IMO


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## ar11 (Sep 23, 2013)

Agree on trying a cheap stone first. My first stone was a King 1/6k which works just fine, as many have mentioned before slower cutting helps when you are learning. Hell I've done thinning and repairs on the 1k side that worked out fine, just took longer.


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## guyskr (Sep 23, 2013)

Thanks to you all for your help!
So here is the final question, which one should I buy, the 800/4000 or the 1000/6000?


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## chinacats (Sep 23, 2013)

I've only used the 1/6k which was decent, but would defer to No Chop who said the 800/4k is a better stone as I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.


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## MowgFace (Sep 23, 2013)

I got the 800/4000 over the 1000/6000 for two main reasons.

1.)I had heard about the King 800s legendary ability to create contrast in clad knives.
2.)I bought it knowing i was going to replace it. So when i got a 1k and, in my case, a 5k i ended up with 800-1000-4000-5000. Instead of a combo 1000/6000 and the individual stones as well.

Mowgs


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## mhlee (Sep 23, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> The reason people shell out for fancy stones is they might cut faster, dish slower, feel better, make mud, or are splash and go. They'll make the process of sharpening easier or more enjoyable, but you'll get the same results (unless you want to split hairs, literally and/or figuratively).



That's not true. Different stones of the same numerical grit can create different edges; certain stones work better on certain steels.


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## labor of love (Sep 23, 2013)

if youre low on money just go with king stones, you will get great results, as long as you practice and use proper technique. i must say though, that the variety of knifes to choose from increases in the $140-160 range and usually the overall quality of these knives are much improved too. sugimoto wa gyuto is pretty cheap and stainless, and may fit in your price range i believe. those wa handle artifex knives seem kind of short almost sujihiki looking, i wouldnt enjoy using a profile like that as an all arounder.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 23, 2013)

mhlee said:


> That's not true. Different stones of the same numerical grit can create different edges; certain stones work better on certain steels.



The certain stones/certain steels thing is effectively the same as saying 'speed'. In practice, you might get a keener edge off a Chosera 1k than a King 1k, but that's because extra time spent on the King 1k will magnify imperfect technique, and mud buildup will subtly round the edge. In theory you _could_ have perfect technique, keep flushing the surface with water, and get the same results.

If you're talking about stones with a range of different grit sizes, or abrasives that break down while sharpening, then that's not the same grit... If you're talking about the particular shape of the abrasive (jagged diamonds vs rounded garnets at the extreme ends), then you're technically correct, but the majority of synthetic waterstones are made with aluminum oxide. 

So like I said, same results unless you want to split hairs


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## mhlee (Sep 23, 2013)

spaceconvoy said:


> The certain stones/certain steels thing is effectively the same as saying 'speed'. In practice, you might get a keener edge off a Chosera 1k than a King 1k, but that's because extra time spent on the King 1k will magnify imperfect technique, and mud buildup will subtly round the edge. In theory you _could_ have perfect technique, keep flushing the surface with water, and get the same results.
> 
> If you're talking about stones with a range of different grit sizes, or abrasives that break down while sharpening, then that's not the same grit... If you're talking about the particular shape of the abrasive (jagged diamonds vs rounded garnets at the extreme ends), then you're technically correct, but the majority of synthetic waterstones are made with aluminum oxide.
> 
> So like I said, same results unless you want to split hairs



Your response includes numerous inconsistent statements. 

Want to try again and back your statements up with some facts?


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## harlock0083 (Sep 24, 2013)

At this point I think getting a King combo would be great for Guyskr to learn on and not worry about the different stones that are available until his sharpening technique has improved.


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## guyskr (Nov 3, 2013)

Hey everybody, I'm just about to buy my knife, and I found this one: http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/aritsugu-astyle-240mm-blade-wa-gy240.html
Does anyone here have any expirence with this brand? There aren't much info, but all I could find was good.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Nov 3, 2013)

guyskr said:


> Hey everybody, I'm just about to buy my knife, and I found this one: http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/aritsugu-astyle-240mm-blade-wa-gy240.html
> Does anyone here have any expirence with this brand? There aren't much info, but all I could find was good.



I have one.

It is very short at the heel - 44 mm - where most 240 wa-gyutos are 50 mm or more. If you want a gyuto that narrow, great. Otherwise ...

The stock handle is of poor quality, and, at least on mine, there was a gap where the tang entered the handle that would allow water to enter. (I have since had mine rehandled by Mike Henry.)

These knives gained a reputation when users altered the geometry to 90/10 or more to get an extremely acute edge. Of course, steering can become an issue to work around with a geometry like that. If you maintain the stock geometry, it is just an average performer.

Although a decent performing knife, I think there are better ones for the same or less money. Have you looked at the Gesshin Uraku? Less money and comes with a saya, an option that will cost another $29 for the Aritsugu saya.

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...u/gesshin-uraku-240mm-stainless-wa-gyuto.html


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## guyskr (Nov 3, 2013)

Everybody is recomending this knife over and over again, so I guess I'll go with it.
Thank you for your comment.


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## chuck239 (Nov 3, 2013)

Are you very comfortable with free hand sharpening? I had a 270 and a suji. I liked them both but felt they took a TON of work to cut well. Is that something you are comfortable with?

-Chuck


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## JBroida (Nov 3, 2013)

You mean the a type, right?


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## chuck239 (Nov 3, 2013)

Yes. I mean the A-type. Sorry that may have read confusing because I didn't quote the post I was responding to. I totally missed the link and recommendation to for the Gesshin Uraku. I agree with pensacola tiger's comments. Go with the Gesshin Uraku! It's great out of the box.

Sorry for the confusion.

-Chuck


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## kpnv (Nov 3, 2013)

i own an a type gyuto and a few of my friends/colleagues also have one. i can't say i'd recommend them to someone starting out. they're not that cheap, relatively difficult to sharpen and maintain and aren't finished that well. also, depending on the fates, your knife could be spotty all the time like mine or near stainless like my friend's. that said, if you're into a little masochism in terms of learning how to thin/sharpen, the a type is a nice little wall to climb. once you're over it, it's a decent working knife, no more no less.

i also bought an uraku for my girlfriend. it's an ok knife and much friendlier. i don't care for the steel but i think that's a personal preference. between the uraku and the a type, i'd recommend the uraku to a beginner. for what it's worth my girl's now using a ginga which she much prefers over the uraku.


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## guyskr (Nov 4, 2013)

I'm sorry I keep pushing new knifes in, but this is the last time, I swear!
http://www.**************.com/satadagy240.html look great but how does it preform?
http://www.**************.com/wagyuto.html 
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKIVG-10.html#KAGAYAKIVG-10 to me looks the least appealing, but wanted to know what you guys think.

Sorry if I drill a hole in your head with all those questions, but I really want to get the best knife that I can for the bucks.


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## chinacats (Nov 5, 2013)

Best for the money will be from JKI...


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## guyskr (Nov 5, 2013)

Oh I see that those links didn't work.
The first one was the kai Takayuki Damascus Wa-Gyuto, and the second was Takayuki Grand Chef Wa-Gyuto


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## guyskr (Nov 5, 2013)

Bumping it,
does anybody knows somthing about the Sakai Takayuki Damascus or the Takayuki Grand Chef?
I want to buy my knife tomorrow and need some final help.


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## Lefty (Nov 5, 2013)

The Grand Chef(f) is a really solid knife. It was well loved a few years ago, when it was the Grand Cheff. The wa version is apparently thinner than the Western, but it's not a "laser". I think you'd be happy with it, for sure.

I have to ask: where are you finding it for $100?


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## Frater_Decus (Nov 5, 2013)

guyskr said:


> Bumping it,
> does anybody knows somthing about the Sakai Takayuki Damascus or the Takayuki Grand Chef?
> I want to buy my knife tomorrow and need some final help.



I own and love the Grand Chef Wa as well as the Hammered Damascus Yo, so I am quite familiar with both. What would you like to know? 
Here's a low-light photo of my GCW, next to my Zwilling Kramer 52100 utility:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1274582_10151685946939716_2142713792_o.jpg
Here is a better pic, from my initial sharpening:






Fair disclaimer: some people recommend the Sakai Yusuke over the GCW, but I can't comment from personal experience on that. 

De gustibus non est disputandum!


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## guyskr (Nov 6, 2013)

Frater- The prices of the knifes are about the same, and they're supposed to be made from the same kind of steel (if you got the 45 layers model), so how much of diffrent there is between them, aside from the fact that one is semi-laser and one isn't.
would you recommend me the Hammered Damascus? I really dig his style, but don't know too much about him.

Thank you in advance, Guy


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## Frater_Decus (Nov 6, 2013)

guyskr said:


> Frater- The prices of the knifes are about the same, and they're supposed to be made from the same kind of steel (if you got the 45 layers model), so how much of diffrent there is between them, aside from the fact that one is semi-laser and one isn't.
> would you recommend me the Hammered Damascus? I really dig his style, but don't know too much about him.
> 
> Thank you in advance, Guy



The Grand Chef Wa-handled is made from AEB-L steel with HRC of ~58 & the "damascus hammered" yo-handled which I have has a core of VG-10 and HRC ~61 (this is the one with 17 layers on each side), so this is likely a different model than you are referring to. The core steel of the 45-layer Silver-3, it has a HRC of ~60. 

I would recommend the 45-layer hammered if that aesthetic is important to you -- it's definitely a good entry level J-blade if you're not looking for sheer performance above all else. I've personally gravitated to monosteel gyutos for their superior feedback on the cutting board and thinness. I believe all three styles mentioned here are made by Aoki Hamono.


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