# Diamond stones



## Bolek (Nov 7, 2020)

I started using diamond stones for steel with hard carbides.

There are resinoid, vitrified, metallic bonded, others diamod stones.



I have DMD :

Feeling OK; about 1mm thick, wearing slowly; seams low diamond density; base Al; resinoid, slow; price $42 a pice. I have on the way a 400 vitrified diamond stone from Practical Sharpening. In the future some kind of #3000 to #5000 fast diamond stone.

What do you think about your diamond stones?


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Nov 7, 2020)

oh man...

I recently purchased a cheap #150/#400 grit combo diamond plate off of amazon like ~20 bucks. Broke both surfaces in by rubbing a scrap of metal against it for like 15 mins. Seems okay so far...

Flattened my 1k and 3k stones with it. Worked well, was convenient, I like it. But hmmmmmm...there sure were a lot of small gouges on my whetstones. Must be some proud diamonds hanging around the plate. No worries, 10 more minutes with the metal scrap should even it out.

I don't think anything of it and I go back to polish with my 3k stone and what do I see???????
GIANT GASHES
IT SEEMS THE DIAMOND ABRASIVE HAS EMBEDDED MANY CHUNKS OF DIAMONDS INTO MY STONE
I had to refinish the entire knife. Too scared to polish on my stones again...

Moral of the story, don't buy sh*tty cheap diamond plates.
Oh yeah and it's rusted after I patted it dry with paper towels.


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## Midsummer (Nov 7, 2020)

Jon has some great “stones” at JKI. I have his 1000 and 6000 set. The 6000 gives a beautiful fine tooth to an edge if you strop the edge after it is finished. 

They are kinda pricey. But my experience with diamond stones is that you get what you pay for.

Not quite like knives where you sometimes pay for a certain immeasurable characteristic.


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## KO88 (Nov 7, 2020)

I ve 1k VD practical and happy with it. Very quick and ok feeling on it. Also have two atomas but it just for flattening.

If dimond for knives only VD in my case...

Practical sharpening has great stuff. Waiting for 3k.
Also heart only good things about Jons 800...


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## Robert Lavacca (Nov 7, 2020)

I really would love some stones from practical sharpening. I have been really wanting to try different diamond stones lately. They are pricey though. I would love to have some in the 2k and under range that I could essentially use after flattening a bevel for scratch removal. I would rather have stones in that range that do not create any contrast between steels. Then pick back up with regular synthetics in the 3-5k range then onto naturals. I think i’ll go for some practical sharpening stones. I would love some from Jon but I think they are definitely out of my price range. I did pick up the new 25 micron diamond resin stone from nano hone after chatting with Hap for a few minutes just to try it out. Either that or I guess I could try and pick up the sigma 400 and 1k see how they do.

edit: thought jon’s were more pricey, maybe i’ll try the 1k from jon. Would love that 300 or 800 but those are unfortunately to steep for me.


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## inferno (Nov 7, 2020)

what about venev from gritomatic. anyone tried these?


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## kayman67 (Nov 8, 2020)

You guys are the worst! Now I feel the need to try the Nanohone plates. I was quite happy with their stuff so far. I have great expectations.


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## Robert Lavacca (Nov 8, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> You guys are the worst! Now I feel the need to try the Nanohone plates. I was quite happy with their stuff so far. I have great expectations.


Once I get the chance to play around with the 25 micron i’ll post some thoughts. I was going to go with practical sharpening first but because of the price I’ll probably go for them in the near future. Hap has only made like 3 different grits so far but he said he is going to be making more in the future.


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## JDC (Nov 8, 2020)

I'm always curious about how to flatten these stones, seems have only 1mm thickness?


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## Matus (Nov 8, 2020)

I have the 3k Practical Sharpening @KO88 is waiting for  and it is great. Can be used as 1 stone combo as the edge is aggressive, but already fine enough for kitchen to tasks.

These kind if stones are best flattened with SiC powder on glass or ceramic time. But one can also use coarse synthetic stone. I have used Bester 220 followed by Shapton pro 1k to ‘open’ the stone - as I was advised by the maker. It worked very well.

Sandpaper does not work at all on these and Atoma would have a very short life span.


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## Robert Lavacca (Nov 8, 2020)

Good to know. Hap told me most of his lapping plates would work and the newer surf stones. I’ve been meaning to given the surf stone a try when my atoma dies. I asked him if I could flatten the 25 micron with an atoma 140. He said he has never tried but also said he doesn’t see why it wouldn’t work. I’m not gonna be using this a ton so im not too concerned. Will probably pick a surf stone up soonish or the flattening plate with the stars. For now i’ll just use the 140 if I need to. Shouldn’t need flattening too often.

I need to take a look at the practical sharpening website. I would love that 400 and possibly another grit under 1k.


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## captaincaed (Nov 11, 2020)

Just started using the JKI 1k/6k set, pleasantly surprised so far. Didn't seem to need a break in period, consistent results, great utilitarian edge with tooth and refinement. I'm boring myself talking about this, because it's been all said before, but there's my towel in the ring.

I wish I still had this old Marko with some burly SS steel that would not ****ing sharpen on regular stones. I bet these would get that ****** sharp.


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## Barmoley (Nov 11, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> Just started using the JKI 1k/6k set, pleasantly surprised so far. Didn't seem to need a break in period, consistent results, great utilitarian edge with tooth and refinement. I'm boring myself talking about this, because it's been all said before, but there's my towel in the ring.
> 
> I wish I still had this old Marko with some burly SS steel that would not ****ing sharpen on regular stones. I bet these would get that ****** sharp.


Yeah, I think some of the higher wear resistance steels got a bad rap around these parts mostly due to people using inappropriate tools to sharpen them. Many stories of not seeing much improvement in edge holding, not getting to high sharpness or loosing initial sharpness quicker than simple carbon steels seem to mostly stem from not using correct stones.

It's been known for many years outside of kitchen knife realm that to get best results from stainless and other high wear resistance knife edges one needs to use CBN or diamond abrasives or at the very least silicon carbide.

JKI 1k/6k are very good in my experience too.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 11, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Yeah, I think some of the higher wear resistance steels got a bad rap around these parts mostly due to people using inappropriate tools to sharpen them. Many stories of not seeing much improvement in edge holding, not getting to high sharpness or loosing initial sharpness quicker than simple carbon steels seem to mostly stem from not using correct stones.
> 
> It's been known for many years outside of kitchen knife realm that to get best results from stainless and other high wear resistance knife edges one needs to use CBN or diamond abrasives or at the very least silicon carbide.
> 
> JKI 1k/6k are very good in my experience too.



The rule of thumb is, when you reach 4% or more vanadium carbides, then CBN or diamonds become essential. You can get by with ceramics under about 600 grit but not much beyond that.


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## Robert Lavacca (Nov 12, 2020)

Just picked up the JKI diamond set. 1/6k is all I could afford . I’m excited. This nano hone 25 micron stone i’m really liking so far. We’ll see how the material holds up over time though.


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## inferno (Nov 12, 2020)

i'm gonna do a test here. i have a microtech from 2004ish in s30v. its really hard, and almost impossible to sharpen on a sharpmaker. 

i'm gonna dull it on a SiC brick and see if i can resharpen it in a reasonable amount of time with my high grit glass stones.


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## inferno (Nov 12, 2020)

i can confirm that glass 500 and pro1k cuts s30v very well. 
glass 1k is slower and seems to clog quite fast but it keeps cutting. def more polishing going on here.
glass 4k seems to work too. but its slow, its slow on all steels though. very good polish. almost looked like mirror.

for the best experience i would do as much as i could on the low grits. saves a lot of time.
i now also understand who pocket knife people like 3-400 grit edges and so on. because it takes too long to go up to 4k and similar. and it might not be worth it.


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## kayman67 (Nov 12, 2020)

Yeah, takes time. 

I've started playing with the most unusual duo for knives (can't say I've seen it before). Atoma 1200 and Shapton Glass 16000 (this is taken straight out of the tools sharpening routine). Atoma can remove some chipping as well, if necessary and can sharpen anything I tried so far. It's more than fast enough. Also, something I didn't test long enough before, it delivers a very bright surface. With 16k I get it mirror like and surprisingly good cutter.


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## inferno (Nov 12, 2020)

lol sounds like a match made in heaven.

do you like the 16k? i've been thinking aboout getting one for about 10 years  but never actually got one.

i think i'm gonna put some dmt 325 edges on some stuff. its supposedly the best of the dmts for sharpness. and i have one.


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## kayman67 (Nov 12, 2020)

Yeah, the most unusual duo ever used  
But the monstrosity works. 

That 16k is a rather fast stone, but also very fine. I reckon anyone having trouble with burrs or getting knives very sharp, would get results with this one. Can't say it's exactly that expensive either. Just 16k sounds very crazy to use.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 12, 2020)

inferno said:


> i can confirm that glass 500 and pro1k cuts s30v very well.
> glass 1k is slower and seems to clog quite fast but it keeps cutting. def more polishing going on here.
> glass 4k seems to work too. but its slow, its slow on all steels though. very good polish. almost looked like mirror.
> 
> ...



High vanadium carbide steels like S30V and upward will have significant diminishing results with SiC and Al2O stones above about 600grit. The vanadium carbides are harder than those ceramics and above that grit rating, you're getting into the actual size of the carbides. Up to that, you're largely abrading the surrounding steel matrix and burnishing the carbides. So when you pass that point and need to actually start abrading the carbides it won't work well.

With CBN or diamond, you can take these steels up to whatever grit you desire and is available.

That said though, the reason most of us prefer a lower grit (and that's subjective) with these steels is they inherently lend themselves to it. With tiny bits of vanadium carbides "chipping" out through use they maintain a toothy aggressive edge that still lasts a good while.

To each their own of course, but running vanadium-rich steels on ceramics puts a lot of wear on the stones.


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## Matus (Nov 12, 2020)

@HumbleHomeCook has a point - there is an article about this on the blog ‘thescienceofsharp’ with excellent electron-microscope images.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 12, 2020)

Matus said:


> @HumbleHomeCook has a point - there is an article about this on the blog ‘thescienceofsharp’ with excellent electron-microscope images.



Todd's site is an amazing resource.


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## Bolek (Nov 18, 2020)

Got on BST from Matus (it is a pleasure to deal with him) the Practical Sharpening vitrified Practical Sharpening in 400 grit. Like it a lot. Very fast. With almost no pressure it is as fast on a soft SS as a worn out 120 grit sand paper with high pressure. In my experience it is better not to apply pressure on diamond based stones or plates. The feedback is OK to good, which is excellent for a diamond stone. Thirstier than expected. As Karolis Griskevicius from Practical Sharpening said diamond stones are not for polishing, but a 400 stone is not for polishing. I like it so much that I ordered from them a 2k and a 6k (a Christmas gift from children) for sharpening hard carbide steels knives (for carbons and other SS I use J Nats). I wanted to take a look at metallic bond diamond stone but I can’t have them all. Karolis Griskevicius explained: _They are very different stones. Vitrified is a porous ceramic diamond stone. Very fast cutter with a nice tactile feedback. It is more comparable to a traditional waterstone. The surface finish is between resin and electroplated. Because of the how aggressive it is and the ceramic bond they are not polishing stones. They are made for cutting and speed without sacrificing the feedback. Metallic bond is more similar to resin. They are more wear resistant but the tactile feedback is pretty bad. Also you need to etch it to open the new abrasive layer. Some people find it difficult and time consuming._


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## Robert Lavacca (Nov 18, 2020)

Put my name on the list for the 400. I think if I like it as much as I think I will, i’ll purchase either the 2k or 3k as well. Jon’s 1k and 6k diamond stones are being delivered today.


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## kayman67 (Nov 18, 2020)

Bolek said:


> Got on BST from Matus (it is a pleasure to deal with him) the Practical Sharpening vitrified Practical Sharpening in 400 grit. Like it a lot. Very fast. With almost no pressure it is as fast on a soft SS as a worn out 120 grit sand paper with high pressure. In my experience it is better not to apply pressure on diamond based stones or plates. The feedback is OK to good, which is excellent for a diamond stone. Thirstier than expected. As Karolis Griskevicius from Practical Sharpening said diamond stones are not for polishing, but a 400 stone is not for polishing. I like it so much that I ordered from them a 2k and a 6k (a Christmas gift from children) for sharpening hard carbide steels knives (for carbons and other SS I use J Nats). I wanted to take a look at metallic bond diamond stone but I can’t have them all. Karolis Griskevicius explained: _They are very different stones. Vitrified is a porous ceramic diamond stone. Very fast cutter with a nice tactile feedback. It is more comparable to a traditional waterstone. The surface finish is between resin and electroplated. Because of the how aggressive it is and the ceramic bond they are not polishing stones. They are made for cutting and speed without sacrificing the feedback. Metallic bond is more similar to resin. They are more wear resistant but the tactile feedback is pretty bad. Also you need to etch it to open the new abrasive layer. Some people find it difficult and time consuming._



A link for 6k, please.


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## kayman67 (Nov 18, 2020)

Triple B Handmade







www.triplebhandmade.com





Here are also some new stones, sold out rather fast. 
For me, they are just too expensive, considering all other options available. I am usually a buy it all kind of guy, but I do pass from time to time.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 18, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Triple B Handmade
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shawn is very focused and has a very specific goal in all that he does. He knows these won't be economically attractive to most buyers, but he also knows that he believes they will be the very best option for those seeking such solutions. He plays in a world of special steels at very high hardness.


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## Bolek (Nov 19, 2020)

I


HumbleHomeCook said:


> Shawn is very focused and has a very specific goal in all that he does. He knows these won't be economically attractive to most buyers, but he also knows that he believes they will be the very best option for those seeking such solutions. He plays in a world of special *steels at very high hardness.*


It is exactly what I use diamond for, hard steels with thngsten and/or vanadium carbides starting with D2 and ZDP189. Have not yeat tray it on super blue.
For the price take in to the account that you get 75 x 210 x *5* mm of diamonds. For lower prices look at DMD : 
Plate 400/1000 $40 with stone holder; ,resinoid (?) 200 x 75 x 1 mm $40 and 40 x 20 x ? mm is $10


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## kayman67 (Nov 19, 2020)

I know price is just a number that not everyone cares about, no matter what. But sometimes is really hard to justify various options. So unless the finish is like never seen before, for the money of one I think I can get 6 plates from Venev, that work just fine. Don't get me wrong, I might be one of very few that got CBN plates. Thing is, now options are getting better and better and prices very competitive. 
Anyway, isn't it 3mm?


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## Bolek (Nov 19, 2020)

Now it is 5mm.
How get plates from Venev ? Do you have a link ?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 19, 2020)

Understand and agree. I very much admire Shawn but his stones are well beyond my means. But I suspect he knows that. He was a professional sharpener before he started making knives. He posted videos of his worn out diamond plates from all the big names. He'd wear them out in days or weeks. So he set about to find a better solution. I think that is more who he is targeting.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 19, 2020)

Is it okay to post YouTube videos on the forum?


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## MontezumaBoy (Nov 19, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> Just started using the JKI 1k/6k set, pleasantly surprised so far. Didn't seem to need a break in period, consistent results, great utilitarian edge with tooth and refinement. I'm boring myself talking about this, because it's been all said before, but there's my towel in the ring.
> 
> I wish I still had this old Marko with some burly SS steel that would not ****ing sharpen on regular stones. I bet these would get that ****** sharp.



Have to agree 100% JKI/Jon's 1k/6K diamond changed everything for me with all the SS I have ... obviously works great on carbon as well but I also keep his 3K splash-n-go for those ... as you say nice refined toothy edge ...


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## Barmoley (Nov 19, 2020)

Bolek said:


> Now it is 5mm.
> How get plates from Venev ? Do you have a link ?


Shawn's website says 3 mm layer of diamonds on top of 2 mm stabilizing layer. So when you say it is 5 mm now is this for the future products? Practical sharpening recently increased his diamond layer to 5 mm, his stones are excellent. In any case 3 mm is plenty for most people for a very long time. Shawn's prices are in line with JKI 800 vitrified which is also 3 mm and by all accounts is excellent. It is expensive to produce high quality vitrified diamond stones, but with more players hopefully prices will go down.


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## Ruso (Nov 19, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> I know price is just a number that not everyone cares about, no matter what. But sometimes is really hard to justify various options. So unless the finish is like never seen before, for the money of one I think I can get 6 plates from Venev, that work just fine. Don't get me wrong, I might be one of very few that got CBN plates. Thing is, now options are getting better and better and prices very competitive.
> Anyway, isn't it 3mm?


How do you compare CBN to diamonds? Does it worth the extra cash?


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## Ruso (Nov 19, 2020)

Bolek said:


> Now it is 5mm.
> How get plates from Venev ? Do you have a link ?


In North America you can get some plates at Gritomatic - High precision knife sharpeners and sharpening supplies


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## kayman67 (Nov 19, 2020)

Bolek said:


> Now it is 5mm.
> How get plates from Venev ? Do you have a link ?



Gritomatic, as stated, would be the easy way.



Ruso said:


> How do you compare CBN to diamonds? Does it worth the extra cash?



For CBN plates, hard or soft bonded, at the moment, I don't feel like they are superior to what Venev did with the diamonds. But I guess they did offer a better higher grit finish for a good amount of time (and overall edge sometimes). 
As a side note, lapping those to perfection is a pain. 

On the other hands, I've seen some tests done in Germany that proved again how CBN coated plates are superior to diamond ones as far as useful life is concerned. The performance was the same. They just last a lot longer. So I would definitely be interested in Spyderco's plate or something similar, for some applications.


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## inferno (Nov 19, 2020)

to be honest 1 stone for 500 is very very expensive. even 400. 

you can get a fairly complete set of stones for that money and some diamond paste. 
you could get 1 or 2 atomas/dmts, and then 3-4-5 regular other stones, and a holder etc etc. or all the venev stones.


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## Barmoley (Nov 19, 2020)

inferno said:


> to be honest 1 stone for 500 is very very expensive. even 400.
> 
> you can get a fairly complete set of stones for that money and some diamond paste.
> you could get 1 or 2 atomas/dmts, and then 3-4-5 regular other stones, and a holder etc etc. or all the venev stones.


Expensive, yes. Can't really compare these though, vitrified diamond stones that are this expensive are true splash and go, cut all steels, stay flat for normal people for years and last years or decades. So you could buy 2-3 of these stones and never buy another stone ever again, not that this would work for this crowd  but you could.


To be honest 1 knife for $500 is very, very expensive. You could get a fairly complete set of knives for that money and some honing rod.......


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## inferno (Nov 19, 2020)

except that you get mediocre knives for 500 but you get the best there is on the planet with the stones.

you still only get 1 grit for 500. you better be really loving that single grit.

there is also the mystery as to what grit this will be equivalent to with regular waterstones.
its the same with all diamonds stones. plated, metal bond, resin bond etc etc. they all vastly differ in speed and scratch pattern compared to regular stones.

if you order any known good brands 1 or 4 or 6k or whatever stone you know pretty much what you will get. you know it will be about this fast and create this or that scratch pattern and get the knives about this or that sharp. 

but with the diamonds you dont. and its quite expensive just to take a chance on and hope it was what you wanted.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 19, 2020)

I hope this is okay to upload. A recent video Shawn put up on the stones:


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## JBroida (Nov 19, 2020)

for what its worth, i've had the company that makes them for us in japan make a 400 grit one and a 3000 grit one (some other grits over the years too).... didn't love them enough to sell. The 400 was awesome, but dished too fast for the price. The 3000 was not awesome... fast for sure, but felt like crap and the finish didn't look particularly nice. I keep trying new things, but for now, the 800 we sell has been my favorite. I need to get around to trying some of Shawn's stones though. They seem interesting for sure. There were some venev things I've enjoyed, but I was borrowing from friends, so I haven't had as much time with them as I would like.


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## panda (Nov 19, 2020)

JBroida said:


> for what its worth, i've had the company that makes them for us in japan make a 400 grit one and a 3000 grit one (some other grits over the years too).... didn't love them enough to sell. The 400 was awesome, but dished too fast for the price. The 3000 was not awesome... fast for sure, but felt like crap and the finish didn't look particularly nice. I keep trying new things, but for now, the 800 we sell has been my favorite. I need to get around to trying some of Shawn's stones though. They seem interesting for sure. There were some venev things I've enjoyed, but I was borrowing from friends, so I haven't had as much time with them as I would like.


the soaker 4k is my absolute favorite stone. if it were to exist, a gesshin 4k diamond would be the next best thing..


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## JBroida (Nov 20, 2020)

if i could get one to be made that I liked, I would let you know for sure

I know you wanted a 3k way back in the day too... i tried like 5-6, but I couldn't find one I wanted to sell


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## Bolek (Nov 20, 2020)

inferno said:


> to be honest *1 stone for 500 is very very expensive*. even 400.
> 
> you can get a fairly complete set of stones for that money and some diamond paste.
> you could get 1 or 2 atomas/dmts, and then 3-4-5 regular other stones, and a holder etc etc. or all the venev stones.


Which stone is $500 ?


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## Barmoley (Nov 20, 2020)

Shawn was selling his for $400-$450. With shipping to Europe probably ~$500. The argument stands regardless of the exact price. The point is if you want really good stones that work on any steel and last for a very long time, stay flat and feel decent, vitrified diamond stones are it. Many people like to play with different stones and finishes and for that regular stones are the way to go. For pure sharpening efficiency a few diamond vitrified stones can be it for many people and in the long run could even be more cost effective than buying many regular stones plus flattening plates.


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## Bolek (Nov 20, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Shawn was selling his for $400-$450. With shipping to Europe probably ~$500. The argument stands regardless of the exact price. The point is if you want really good stones that work on any steel and last for a very long time, stay flat and feel decent, vitrified diamond stones are it. Many people like to play with different stones and finishes and for that regular stones are the way to go. For pure sharpening efficiency a few diamond vitrified stones can be it for many people and in the long run could even be more cost effective than buying many regular stones plus flattening plates.


It is not my point of view : I also like stones that last for a very long time, stay flat and feel decent, but I only use diamond for steels with hard carbides. For carbon steels and ABE L I like use J Nats. Unfortunately my wife do not like me to cut stuff with carbons.


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## Barmoley (Nov 20, 2020)

Bolek said:


> It is not my point of view : I also like stones that last for a very long time, stay flat and feel decent, but I only use diamond for steels with hard carbides. For carbon steels and ABE L I like use J Nats. Unfortunately my wife do not like me to cut stuff with carbons.


I understand it is your preference and you can use jnats or synthetic water stones or oil stones or sand paper. Many people here enjoy sharpening and stones, some have more in stones than knives. All I am saying is that if all you want is get your knives sharp and keep them that way, vitrified diamond stones have their place and can be more cost effective and efficient than other options while being pretty good where the feel is concerned. 2-3 quality diamond stones can be a solution for most sharpening needs for many people.


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## Bolek (Nov 20, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> I understand it is your preference and you can use jnats or synthetic water stones or oil stones or sand paper. Many people here enjoy sharpening and stones, some have more in stones than knives. All I am saying is that if all you want is get your knives sharp and keep them that way, vitrified diamond stones have their place and can be more cost effective and efficient than other options while being pretty good where the feel is concerned. 2-3 quality diamond stones can be a solution for most sharpening needs for many people.


On that I can not agree more : so I have the 400diamond vitrified stone and 2000 and 3000 on the way. One day if there be any aviable I'll get a 12000+ one


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## Robert Lavacca (Nov 20, 2020)

This diamond set from Jon is beastly. The 1k is ridiculously fast. I really love the 6k though. Anyone who is on the fence should go for it!


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## Bolek (Nov 23, 2020)

fyi Karolis Griskevicius is making a new improved batch of vitrified diamond stones at the end of November. Do not hesitata to contact him. The practical chapening (as tripel b handmade) web seams not up to date but do not hesitate to use "Contacts" buton.


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## Matus (Nov 23, 2020)

I would only touch on the point Jon mentioned - Karolis did mention to me that he was also not happy with the properties of the higher grit vitrified diamond stones and also struggled to control the dishing properties of low (especially under 400) grit stones. He made a few 3000 grit stones (I like a lot the one currently in my possession) and he only made two in 6000 grit and stopped making them because they just did not feel good.

On a general note - whether it makes sense to purchase stones this expensive is always subjective as everyone not only has a different budget, but also different perception of their value.


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## Bolek (Nov 23, 2020)

Matus said:


> I would only touch on the point Jon mentioned - Karolis did mention to me that he was also not happy with the properties of the higher grit vitrified diamond stones and also struggled to control the dishing properties of low (especially under 400) grit stones. He made a few 3000 grit stones (I like a lot the one currently in my possession) and he only made two in 6000 grit and stopped making them because they just did not feel good.
> 
> On a general note - whether it makes sense to purchase stones this expensive is always subjective as everyone not only has a different budget, but also different perception of their value.


If I got it correctly:


Under #400 are fast dishing ;
#400, #1000, #2000 and #3000 are OK
#5000 and #6000 have bad feedback.
I’ll report as soon as I’ll get them.


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## Matus (Nov 23, 2020)

@Bolek that is approximately my understanding.


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## M-S-T (Nov 23, 2020)

Hello,

I will try to clear some misunderstandings regarding vit stones and superabrasives in general. If you have some specific questions- I will try my best to answer them. First of all, we should understand that there are no perfect abrasive. It is always a tradeoff. Always. Vitrified is not an exception. You can have a really wear resistant low grit vit matrix. It is not a problem at all. Same way you can have a super high grit vit stone, but it may not be as practical as you may think. IMHO there is a sweet spot range, where the vit stones perform the best. This would be 400-3000 range. You can go a little bit higher or a little bit lower, but thats about it. Again, thats my personal opinion. Many things changes when you are going into extreme ends of the particle size.


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## Bolek (Nov 24, 2020)

M-S-T said:


> Hello,
> 
> I will try to clear some misunderstandings regarding vit stones and superabrasives in general. If you have some specific questions- I will try my best to answer them. First of all, we should understand that there are no perfect abrasive. It is always a tradeoff. Always. Vitrified is not an exception. You can have a really wear resistant low grit vit matrix. It is not a problem at all. Same way you can have a super high grit vit stone, but it may not be as practical as you may think. IMHO there is a sweet spot range, where the vit stones perform the best. This would be 400-3000 range. You can go a little bit higher or a little bit lower, but thats about it. Again, thats my personal opinion. Many things changes when you are going into extreme ends of the particle size.


Do you know how the vitrified diamond stones dish? Is it the same explanation for under 400, 400 to 3000 and above 3000 grit stones? Is the pressure on the knife relevant (for the same amount of steel removed)? Is it drop out of diamonds? Does diamonds brakes? Does diamond wear out (I do not thinks so but I am not a specialist)? BTW incising the thickness of the diamond layer (from 3mm to 5mm) is the way to go. Would further increase of the thickness be very expensive? Thank you for making all this experiments for us.


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## Deadboxhero (Nov 24, 2020)

Bolek said:


> Do you know how the vitrified diamond stones dish? Is it the same explanation for under 400, 400 to 3000 and above 3000 grit stones? Is the pressure on the knife relevant (for the same amount of steel removed)? Is it drop out of diamonds? Does diamonds brakes? Does diamond wear out (I do not thinks so but I am not a specialist)? BTW incising the thickness of the diamond layer (from 3mm to 5mm) is the way to go. Would further increase of the thickness be very expensive? Thank you for making all this experiments for us.


The bonding is very hard but also wears like a traditional waterstone just not as dramatic because the bonding is more intense.

Since the diamond/cbn grains are so long lasting, expensive and effective you want the bonding to secure them as much as possible and manually dress as needed versus a more traditional ceramic abrasive waterstone to which matches the bonding strength to the abrasive so that the bond will shed dull abrasive properly during use and wear appropriately.

3mm vs 5mm is not always proportional to how long the stone lasts, the bonding strength/hardness/density is.

You can have a 3mm last way longer than a 5mm.

Not all 400 grit Vitrified stones will dish fast.

Depends on the bond.

On a side note,

Flattening should be done with all diamond waterstones regardless of bonding with a SiC or AlOx abrasive powder on a granite tile or plate glass or a SiC stone flattener. All you want to do is cut down the bonding without negativity impacting the diamond/cbn you're paying for.

It is erroneous to use a diamond plate to flatten since you're damaging the diamond grains in both the stone and the plate wasting both resources.

Dishing is so little on some stones that some folks will feel like they do not dish.


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## Bolek (Nov 25, 2020)

Deadboxhero said:


> The bonding is very hard but also wears like a traditional waterstone just not as dramatic because the bonding is more intense.
> 
> Since the diamond/cbn grains are so long lasting, expensive and effective you want the bonding to secure them as much as possible and manually dress as needed versus a more traditional ceramic abrasive waterstone to which matches the bonding strength to the abrasive so that the bond will shed dull abrasive properly during use and wear appropriately.
> 
> ...


1.I think that a vitrified diamond stone is sintered diamond powder with no bonding and some pores (empty spaces). In other words it is a more or less porous ceramic made of diamond powder.

2. For a given kind 3mm vs 5mm is *not* always proportional to how long the stone lasts. A 10mm stone last twice what a same stone with a 5mm layer does (as long as you do not brake it).

3. I hope that my 400 grit Vitrified stone will not dish fast, and last for years. BTW I’ll only use it when my other abrasive does not work.

4. Flattening if any should be done with diamond waterstones according to the bonding. With metallic bond diamond stone hotspot can be etched or on whole surface to open the new abrasive layer.


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## Deadboxhero (Nov 25, 2020)

Bolek said:


> 1.I think that a vitrified diamond stone is sintered diamond powder with no bonding and some pores (empty spaces). In other words it is a more or less porous ceramic made of diamond powder.
> 
> 2. For a given kind 3mm vs 5mm is *not* always proportional to how long the stone lasts. A 10mm stone last twice what a same stone with a 5mm layer does (as long as you do not brake it).
> 
> ...



1. That is incorrect, one does not Vitrify the diamond itself, it is the bonding material that is vitrified with diamond/cbn added inside. Different volumes of diamond/cbn can be added as well.

2. A soft stone can be thicker than harder stone and still wear out faster, so bonding is key for any stone.

3. Use and enjoy it whenever you like.

4.Metallic bonded stones still need to be flattened AND chemically dressed to revel the grit, it's why I like vitrified bonding more. They are simpler to use for lay people. With Metallic bonded stones it's a soft metal copper tin alloy with diamond/cbn inside so its not immune to dishing. The advantage of the soft metal copper tin alloy is it allows for the use of acid to burn down the bonding. If used heavily it will need to be both flattened than dressed.


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## Bolek (Nov 25, 2020)

Deadboxhero said:


> 2. A soft stone can be thicker than harder stone and still wear out faster, so bonding is key for any stone.


You are right but for same technology if you add thickness you extend lifespan (as doublethick Shapton500 or King last twice as the standart one).


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## Deadboxhero (Nov 25, 2020)

Bolek said:


> You are right but for same technology if you add thickness you extend lifespan (as doublethick Shapton500 or King last twice as the standart one).



Nah you misunderstand, there is variation between different manufacturers and stones with the same bonding technology. You can have a Vitrified bond on the softer side and one that's on the harder side and everything in between.

So saying "Vitrified bond" is not universal. Some will wear slower some faster.

So just because one is 5mm and one is 3mm it's not a guarantee that the thicker stone lasts longer.


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## Deadboxhero (Nov 25, 2020)

Thread needs some stone pics






Left base Naniwa Diamond Resin 3k, right base Poltava Metallic bonded 1k





CBN resin 400 and 1500





Vitrified CBN 1k





Super Vitrified Diamond 400 grit





Metallic bonded 1k


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## Bolek (Nov 25, 2020)

Deadboxhero said:


> Thread needs some stone pics
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing.

You have a large variety of diamond / CBN stones. Some overlapping. Can you tell us more? Wear, dishing and abrasive layer thickness? Prices? Speed on hard steel? The knife edge you get with? Feedback? Other comments? What do you use them for?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 25, 2020)

Bolek said:


> Thank you for sharing.
> 
> You have a large variety of diamond / CBN stones. Some overlapping. Can you tell us more? Wear, dishing and abrasive layer thickness? Prices? Speed on hard steel? The knife edge you get with? Feedback? Other comments? What do you use them for?[/URL]



Shawn's (Deadboxhero) YouTube channel is chock full of awesome information. I know he has videos discussing various diamond water stones: Big Brown Bear

I remember a few years ago watching one of his reviews on them. This was when he was just doing sharpening and he commented on that they are effective but expensive. Fast forward and he's way down the high-alloy rabbit hole and selling his own "expensive" stones.


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## M-S-T (Nov 25, 2020)

Bolek said:


> Do you know how the vitrified diamond stones dish? Is it the same explanation for under 400, 400 to 3000 and above 3000 grit stones? Is the pressure on the knife relevant (for the same amount of steel removed)? Is it drop out of diamonds? Does diamonds brakes? Does diamond wear out (I do not thinks so but I am not a specialist)? BTW incising the thickness of the diamond layer (from 3mm to 5mm) is the way to go. Would further increase of the thickness be very expensive? Thank you for making all this experiments for us.


Let's clear a few things out. First of all everything wears out. Unfortunately, Shirley Bassey was wrong, diamonds are not forever. Why does the coarse stones wears out the fastest? It applies to any bond type and any type of abrasive we tipically use in sharpening. Vit is not any different. It is just another type of bond. Sharpening in general is a very agressive and brutal act of steel removal. So yes, some of the abrasive particles will be ripped out of the matrix. Diamonds will fracture. You would be surprised how easy it fractures. When people think of diamond they think well...diamond is diamond. There is a huge range of diamond grades categorised by purity, shape, fracture rate, coating etc. Some are more suited for resin others are more suited for other type of bonds but they can be interchanged to get some specific results needed for specific task. As Shawn mentioned before vit bond can be anywhere from crayon soft to a really hard. Question is, where do you want it to be and why? That was probably the most difficult question for me. Hard matrix will stay flat longer. Softer matrix will have a nicer tactile feedback. It's not going to be gesshin type of nice of course, but it will be pretty nice. Something you are not going to get from any other type of bond. Softer bond is easier to lapp and maintain. For me personaly softer bond is the winner. But thats me. I have my own taste for things. I'm trading some of the wear resistance for some extra feedback. Some people just want a stone that has minimal maintenance required. If you are a pro you don't want to spend unnecessary time on lapping. Time is money. In this case you can trade some of the feedback to maximum wear resistance. Which technically is the way it should be.


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## M-S-T (Nov 25, 2020)

Now. If you are just a regular sharpening geek vit stones will last you a very long time. Even if it is on the softer side. Purely because it is so fast cutting. So no worries here. Let's talk about the price here. Yes, they are expensive. It is the most expensive type of abrasive. The grade of diamonds, volume of it and the bond itself. The vitrification temperatures are close to the themperatures of the diamond oxidation. It takes an insane amount of abrasive to make a standard 3x8 size plate. Also there are many other technicalities that makes it problematic to produce. Depending on the composition of the matrix it tends to change its geometry upon cooling. It can twist or go out of square. Basically you have to mold it oversized and surface grind to size. How are you going to surface grind it? With what? Very inefficient. Everything adds up. I always encourage people to see value in things. And I believe it has a great value.


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## Bolek (Dec 17, 2020)

My coming stone 2k will be over 6mm thick. Nice. As thick as a
Shapton Glass Stone!!!!

6mm of vitrified diamonds, what a nice idea.


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## M-S-T (Dec 18, 2020)

A little bit over 6mm. Overkill for that grit for sure, but why not, it's Christmas after all


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## Bolek (Dec 18, 2020)

I am so excited. Up to now my diamond stones was reserved for hard carbide steel knives. With a little bit over 6mm I can use it for all SS.

I am curious what the thickness of the 6k stone is.

For carbon knives the JNat is my way to go.


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## Jovidah (Dec 18, 2020)

Purely out of curiosity and maybe a silly question... but how do you flatten diamond stones? Can you just rub them with an Atoma? I know they have a reputation for wearing down extremely slowly but I can imagine that eventually you get some kind of height difference.


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## inferno (Dec 18, 2020)

believe it or not but you rub them on a slab of green kryptonite.


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## M-S-T (Dec 18, 2020)

SiC powder is your best friend here. Everything wears out. It's only a question of time. If we are talking about the really hard vit bond and you are one of those people who likes your stones perfectly flat, you have to keep an eye on the flatness of the stone. Don't let it dish too much otherwise it will take a lot of time to lapp it back. Give it a fast lapp with a soft Sic stone every now and then. But it must be very soft otherwise it will glaze over and do nothing. Sometimes you can find those oldscool double sided SiC stones in your local hardware store. They cost next to nothing. Never use the electroplated stones for that. You will kill it in a matter of minutes. Basically you are rubbing diamond against diamond and what happens is all the sharp edges polishes out. It looses all the cutting power.


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## kayman67 (Dec 18, 2020)

This


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## Hassanbensober (Dec 18, 2020)

Sanwa kenma 1000 not sure if vitrified or not? Love this stone, if a new edge needs to be cut this will produce a very fine burr in just a few minutes work.


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## kayman67 (Dec 18, 2020)

Where is this to be found?


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## JBroida (Dec 18, 2020)

Hassanbensober said:


> Sanwa kenma 1000 not sure if vitrified or not? Love this stone, if a new edge needs to be cut this will produce a very fine burr in just a few minutes work. View attachment 106897


i used to use the 500 grit version, but have since moved on. I prefer these to naniwa though. Solid options. The coarse one had been a recommendation of a sharpener in sakai almost a decade ago.


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## Hassanbensober (Dec 18, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Where is this to be found?


Lucky strike from a Japanese auction. Haven’t been able to find much information on it myself.


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## Deadboxhero (Dec 19, 2020)

Hassanbensober said:


> Sanwa kenma 1000 not sure if vitrified or not? Love this stone, if a new edge needs to be cut this will produce a very fine burr in just a few minutes work. View attachment 106897


Resin Stone


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## Bolek (Dec 29, 2020)

Received #2000 and #6000 from Practical Sharpening. I also asked him to give me a not good prototype diamond stone of a different grit to play with but it was not possible.

The #2000 is gorgeous and I shall learn how to use the #6000.

I do not like to sharpen a sharp knife (and dull it for that). The only not sharp knife at home yesterday was an OFTB not sharp VG10 Eden Classic suji with obtuse edge that I kept (the angle) during sharpening.

#2000 : I apply very low pressure on diamonds. With low pressure the speed is OK (it will be faster with normal pressure). No break in needed. I got the burr in 3 minutes directly on the #2000. I was not able to completely get rid of that burr on this stone. The stone is less porous and thirsty than the #400 and #6000. I do not know if the bonding is hard or soft but for a VD the feedback OK with me. Do not load, all swarf goes with the liquid (I use widows cleaner). About 6mm thick. Seems to be the sweet point for me.

#6000 With low pressure the speed is OK (it will be faster with normal pressure). Break in done directly with the knife.  Get rid of the burr from #2000 on this stone. The stone is porous and thirsty. I do not know if the bonding is hard or soft but for a VD the feedback OK with me. The stone loads. About 5mm thick. As good as can be now days.

I am happy.


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## Bolek (Dec 29, 2020)

A very small complain : the grit is not marked on each stone.


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## inferno (Dec 29, 2020)

what scratch pattern does the 1200/2k venev produce?
i read in the conversion chart that the grit is equivalent to 4k and 8k JIS. 
but do you get a typical ~4k and ~8k JIS finish from these?


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## M-S-T (Dec 29, 2020)

1200 gives a pretty good mirror. 2k is not great imho. Not consistent. Can give so random deeper scratches.


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## Deadboxhero (Dec 30, 2020)

M-S-T said:


> 1200 gives a pretty good mirror. 2k is not great imho. Not consistent. Can give so random deeper scratches.


Yea the 2k was a waste, had worse finish than the 1200. Dressing did not solve the issue either.


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