# A brine for a bone in pork rib chop



## Bill13 (Dec 23, 2016)

So, i picked up the above and am planning on cooking it in a water bath for 4 hrs at 140 with some sage, thyme, salt, pepper, and then finishing it in peanut oil. I'm looking for a brine and was thinking of salt, garlic, crushed juniper berries, peppercorns but need help with ratios or other, better options. 
A side sauce of apricots and dates is part of the plan.

Any ideas are welcome, including constructive criticism.


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## Nemo (Dec 23, 2016)

I must say that for reasons of food safety, I prefer my pork to be 70-75 celcius (about 160-170 I think), although the temp at which parasites are killed probably does depend on duration of exposure, so it may be OK.

FWIW, I'm not not a pro chef but I do have a fairly solid grounding in microbiology.


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## ThEoRy (Dec 23, 2016)

You absolutely can kill pathogens at lower temperatures. It just takes longer. 140 is fine. For the brine I just use water salt and brown sugar.


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## strumke (Dec 23, 2016)

Nemo, take a look at Douglas Baldwin's Guide to Sous Vide:
http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

Bill, for brining, additional spices/aromatics don't enter the tissue, it's just the salt/water. I'd brine with salt and then sous vide with the additional flavors. If you do some googling you can see the science/experiments people have done to show that the other flavor molecules are generally too large to pass into the meat (with some exceptions like cloves).


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## Nemo (Dec 23, 2016)

Thanks strumke, that's an interesting resource and I'll definitely have a closer look at it when I get a chance.

My main concern with pork is not pathogenic bacteria which are present on the surface of most meat (as reference in Baldwin's article), it is with a couple of parasites that are common within the flesh of pork, which are not as common in other farmed meats.

Looking at the recommendations of various government bodies in various countries, it seems that the 71 celsius recommendation allows a fairly wide safety margin to allow for cooking methods which produce variable heating (indeed, there was one recommendation that 145f was adequate). I agree that this is unlikely to be required in Sous Vide, especially with a 4 hour cook, so I suspect that in I may well be being over-cautious as ThEoRy has suggested.

On the marinading/ brining, I thought that Heston did some experiments showing that brining did allow marinade molecules to penetrate the surface to an extent. However, I could definitely be wrong about this (as well).


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## wellminded1 (Dec 23, 2016)

3.5% salt to water weight, aromatics and you are good to go. We cook at 57c and then a nice hard sear or quick roast.


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## daveb (Dec 23, 2016)

SV pork likes 140F. A lot.

I don't have references with me (holidays) but recall that salt weight should be 5% of product weight for osmosis to happen. Water to cover. Additional flavorings as desired. I like "raw" sugar and black peppercorns rough crushed, mustard seed and whatever else is handy.


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## Bill13 (Dec 24, 2016)

Thanks everyone, 5% sounds good as I have a salt tooth. If I have the containers maybe I'll do 1/2 with the extra aromatics and 1/2 just with salt and sugar.


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## DaveInMesa (Dec 24, 2016)

On the subject of safety in pork, one of the benefits of modern factory farming in the US is that trichinosis is no longer a threat. Back in the days when hogs were allowed to wallow in mud, they could pick up that pathogen from the soil. Now that they're raised on concrete, with more antibiotics than food in their food, the only thing to fear from pork is whatever was on the butcher's hands when the meat was packed. I'm not really surprised that the FDA still recommends 160-170F, but even when trichinosis was an issue, it was _completely _eliminated by the time the temperature reached 153F. 

But, it's not an issue in the US, any more, so enjoy your pork cooked to medium or medium rare. No more shoe leather chops! :doublethumbsup::hungry: THIS MAY NOT APPLY TO THOSE OF YOU IN OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE FARMING IS MORE HUMANE.


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## Brucewml (Dec 24, 2016)

Oh really???!!!!!!! I should try the pork in us now. I never eat medium or medium rare pork. Lol


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## Nemo (Dec 24, 2016)

This could explain the discrepancy in temp recommendations. I must say, the flavour of free range Berkshire pork slow roasted to an internal temp of 70C is amazing.
I don't find the texture at this temp to be rubbery but maybe I don't even know what I'm missing out on.


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## Nemo (Dec 24, 2016)

@ Aussie chefs: what do you guys do here in terms of pork internal temps (slow cooked)?


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## toddnmd (Dec 25, 2016)

Pork cooked to 140/medium is sooooooo much juicier than that cooked to higher temps. 

The 160-170 recommendation is based on the meat hitting that temp for a second. You can most certainly go lower if you hold it at the temp for a while. Four hours is more than generous (even if it might take the first hour for the very center to get to the target temp).

Let us know how it goes.


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## panda (Dec 25, 2016)

salt + sugar brine, rinse well, SV w/ cracked pepper+coriander, rosemary, apple slice, smashed garlic & olive oil to 135F (save the liquid from bag for sauce), sear in cast iron finish with butter
cook shallots/star anise/bay leaf/orange zest/sv liquid/madeira wine with drippings in a separate pan to make sauce

disregard the fuss about 'safe cooking temps for pork', let the foreigners worry about that.


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## strumke (Dec 25, 2016)

Brined a 2.5lb pork loin in 1.75% salt (of the meat + water weight) for 24 hours as an equilibrium brine (no need to worry about over salting and timing the brine right). Sous vide at 140 for 5 hours with time, sage, S&P, and garlic. Seared in cast iron and finished with a pan sauce from vermouth, shallots, mustard, pepper, paprika, and the sous vide juices.

Prob could have gone a few degrees lower, but there was little to complain about during dinner.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 25, 2016)

ThEoRy said:


> You absolutely can kill pathogens at lower temperatures. It just takes longer. 140 is fine. For the brine I just use water salt and brown sugar.



Is this true? Like you can kill botulism without boiling under pressure??


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## ThEoRy (Dec 25, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Is this true? Like you can kill botulism without boiling under pressure??



Absolutely. Think about pasteurization. Lower temps absolutely do kill bacteria but it just takes longer. Not a problem when long cook times are generally done for SV cooking anyway. Botulism? Shouldn't come into play unless you are cooking with dented cans or rancid garlic oil. Botulism does take higher temps to kill though. So high your food would be inedible anyway.


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## malexthekid (Dec 25, 2016)

Of you want more info on killing micro organisms etc google legionella control. One of the nastiest and quite common in hot and warm water systems so lots of info... most stop growing aftet 30 or 35C and then start to die over 50C and at somehwere between 60C and 70C you got almost instaneous killing of them.... of course there are always out liers but for those that are common these is basically true.


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## Nemo (Dec 25, 2016)

I hope we aren't hijacking this thread too much. If so, I'm sorry as I started this debate.

Should we move it to another thread?

Spore forming bacteria such as _Clostridium botulinum_ and _Bacillus cereus_ are a special case. They absolutely do require wet heat at over 100 celsius (i.e.: under pressure) to kill the spores. This is critical in sterilising surgical instruments. There are a limited number of situations where this is important in food preparation and these can usually be managed by taking simple precautions (such as appropriate refrigeration).

My understanding is that the reason that pork in particular has a higher recommended temperature in some countries is the risk of two specific parasites.

_Trichanella spiralis_ (pork roundworm) is a worm which causes devastating infestations of the neurological and other systems. _Toxoplasma gondii_ is a parasite which also causes neurological infestations. This causes developmental abnormalities in unborn children and possibly young children. There is a bit of debate about the extent to which it causes subtle neuropsychological abnormalities in adults. Many authorities postulate that pork is a more important vector than cats for _T. gondii_ in human populations.

As ThEory has stated, the kill temperatures for these parasites are very time dependent. Also, as stated, the 71 celsius recommendation allows a fair bit of leeway for techniques producing uneven cooking and for rapid cooking techniques. Sous vide is obviously neither of these, so in theory (and I assume, but don't know, in practice) would be safer than other techniques. One USDA resource specifically mentioned that microwave cooking was particularly uneven and couldn't guarantee killing _T. spirals_ even at 71 celsius.


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