# Takefu Steel Company History and Reputation



## Troopah_Knives (Oct 17, 2022)

I was recently looking into some different Takefu steels and was wondering if anyone knew a bit more about the company more specifically in comparison to Hitachi. Some questions I have:

1. Do the two companies have significantly different business models (I haven't seen many modern tool steels from Takefu)?
2. Do the two companies have different reputations among Japanese smiths?
3. Are White and Blue used as generic names (ex it some White2 Shiro2 from Takefu and some Shirogami 2 from Hitachi or does it always refer to the same thing)?
4. Is Takefu the only provider of prelam stock in Japan?

Any additional knowledge or interesting articles or thoughts on Takefu steels as well as experiences with them would be appreciated!


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 17, 2022)

@JBroida?

@Larrin?


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## HSC /// Knives (Oct 17, 2022)

#4 , I would say no, because Murray Carter gets prelaminated with Hitachi white #1

As far as experience, I first used the Takefu laminated Suminagashi steel in December 2015 in a class with Murray Carter, that’s the first time I forged and quenched it, and I’ve been using it on and off ever since. For me it’s a very friendly steel to work with. 

They are on Instagram, you could ask them, or ask Alex Bazes.


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## HSC /// Knives (Oct 17, 2022)




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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 17, 2022)

HSC /// Knives said:


> View attachment 203649


Oh, right I forgot about that Dictum stuff. I actually have some in my shop. Although it seems like the only stuff available I've found from Hitachi is like 30mm wide. While Takefu seems to have a much larger selection. Although that doesn't necessarily reflect what is available in Japan.


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## jwthaparc (Oct 17, 2022)

Just looking at the takefu site. It definitely seems like a company that caters directly to bladesmiths. Or at least making materials specifically for cutting tools. 

Also not sure what you meant about the shiro2 thing. I know that is a different steel than shirogami 2. The takefu shiro2 has a small amount of chromium, and also nickle.


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 17, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Also not sure what you meant about the shiro2 thing. I know that is a different steel than shirogami 2. The takefu shiro2 has a small amount of chromium, and also nickle.


Often knife stores will state that a knife is white steel. Is this a generic name that can refer to either Takefu or Hitachi or is it only one?


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## Qapla' (Oct 17, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Often knife stores will state that a knife is white steel. Is this a generic name that can refer to either Takefu or Hitachi or is it only one?



I'm guessing that people picked up on the Hitachi names (which refer to the paper they were stored in, not to any color of anything related to the metals themselves) and have been using them as a way of categorizing them more generically (e.g. 1095, 26c3 as "white" steels, or 1.2519 as "German blue"). 

However, I think it's limited to white and blue; I've never heard of anyone referring to AUS-10 (similar to ginsan, i.e. Hitachi Silver 3), AEB-L (of which gin-5, i.e. Hitachi Silver 5, is a clone), or A2 tool-steel (of which V-Gin-1, i.e. Takefu V-Silver-1, is a clone) as being "silver steels". And German Silberstahl ("silver steel") is completely unrelated to any of them. Nor have I heard anything about something being a "yellow steel" in the fashion of Hitachi kigami.

However, everything I wrote here is just a guess.


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## blokey (Oct 19, 2022)

Compare to Takefu, Hitachi is much larger and produce basically every range of industrial steel. White, blue and yellow tho are specifically referred as Yasuki steel, refers to the city it is produced, those were produced with the intention of recreating traditional carbon steel used in sword making and other cultural activities, Hitachi acquired the plant and continue to produce them. At least that's what I heard.


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 19, 2022)

blokey said:


> Compare to Takefu, Hitachi is much larger and produce basically every range of industrial steel. White, blue and yellow tho are specifically referred as Yasuki steel, refers to the city it is produced, those were produced with the intention of recreating traditional carbon steel used in sword making and other cultural activities, Hitachi acquired the plant and continue to produce them. At least that's what I heard.


Very interesting so would that imply that white and blue always refer to Hitachi steels? Part of why I ask is as mentioned previously in this thread Takefu and Hitachi's white and blue steel differ somewhat in composition and in my experience retailers often only post that a knife is made with "blue 1" or "white 1" and to me, this is somewhat vague.


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## Matt Jacobs (Oct 19, 2022)

I have no real input but I have had a couple of knives in stainless clad V-toku2 from Takefu and it is one of my favorite steels I have had on a knife. Easy to sharpen, holds and edge and holds an etch forever.


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## refcast (Oct 19, 2022)

Searching up the names in Japanese is where it's at to get the best primary source info






TAKEFU SPECIAL STEEL CO., LTD.


We produce laminated metal sheets (roll -bonding different types of metal). Takefu Special Steel takes pride in being one of the original steel makers in Japan, to widely supply original steel products for knives (from household use to industrial machinery), industrial blade steels, and craft...



www.e-tokko.com


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## EShin (Oct 19, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> I was recently looking into some different Takefu steels and was wondering if anyone knew a bit more about the company more specifically in comparison to Hitachi. Some questions I have:
> 
> 1. Do the two companies have significantly different business models (I haven't seen many modern tool steels from Takefu)?
> 2. Do the two companies have different reputations among Japanese smiths?
> ...


Very interesting topic, hope to find out more!
1. As others already mentioned, business models are very different with Hitachi basically producing the steels as CSR rather than as business. However, with Hitachi having sold their steel business, it’s still unsure if the production will continue or not.
2. I don’t think there’s many smiths in Japan who have experience with both as basically only the smiths in Takefu work with their steel, but perhaps @ABazes knows more?
3. Some names are similar and it can easily lead to confusion, especially with their “Shiro2”, but not so much with blue steels.
4. I don’t think so but i don’t actually know. Would be very interesting to find out.


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## ABazes (Oct 19, 2022)

As @blokey mentioned, Hitachi is a larger industrial firm and produces steels for many industries whereas Takefu specializes in cutlery steels. In addition to using their own steels in the laminated stock they manufacture, they also use Hitachi steels. So, you could have prelaminated Blue Super stock from Takefu. Given that their Shiro2 is a completely different steel from Hitachi shirogami (white paper) #2, it can be a little confusing. I’m not sure why Takefu chose the name for that steel, but I have always taken it as “White Steel: TNG.” It’s a lovely steel. The nickel addition gives it greater toughness and edge stability and the chromium improves the size and heat treatment response of the carbides (which are comparatively few).

Their VToku steels are similar in composition to the Hitachi blue/aogami series, but (according to Larrin’s article on tungsten steels) they have better toughness for a given hardness and wear resistance. I think the steel should actually score even higher in his calculations because he doesn’t include the vanadium content. (I understand why he doesn’t: the specs for the steel say “less than 0.2% V,” but if you look at their other steels that have no vanadium, they don’t even list it. So, at the least, I think it always has a small but significant vanadium addition). What I CAN say with certainty is that it’s really, really nice steel for kitchen knives.

Edit: Although Takefu has a reputation for quality, it doesn’t have the brand recognition that the Hitachi steels have, so many smiths prefer to work with those to increase salability. Takefu also does not make its mono steels as widely available as its preclad, whereas the Hitachi mono steels come in stock sizes that lend themselves more to forge welding work.


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## Delat (Oct 19, 2022)

ABazes said:


> As @blokey mentioned, Hitachi is a larger industrial firm and produces steels for many industries whereas Takefu specializes in cutlery steels. In addition to using their own steels in the laminated stock they manufacture, they also use Hitachi steels. So, you could have prelaminated Blue Super stock from Takefu. Given that their Shiro2 is a completely different steel from Hitachi shirogami (white paper) #2, it can be a little confusing. I’m not sure why Takefu chose the name for that steel, but I have always taken it as “White Steel: TNG.” It’s a lovely steel. The nickel addition gives it greater toughness and edge stability and the chromium improves the size and heat treatment response of the carbides (which are comparatively few).
> 
> Their VToku steels are similar in composition to the Hitachi blue/aogami series, but (according to Larrin’s article on tungsten steels) they have better toughness for a given hardness and wear resistance. I think the steel should actually score even higher in his calculations because he doesn’t include the vanadium content. (I understand why he doesn’t: the specs for the steel say “less than 0.2% V,” but if you look at their other steels that have no vanadium, they don’t even list it. So, at the least, I think it always has a small but significant vanadium addition). What I CAN say with certainty is that it’s really, really nice steel for kitchen knives.
> 
> Edit: Although Takefu has a reputation for quality, it doesn’t have the brand recognition that the Hitachi steels have, so many smiths prefer to work with those to increase salability. Takefu also does not make its mono steels as widely available as its preclad, whereas the Hitachi mono steels come in stock sizes that lend themselves more to forge welding work.



I feel like I’ve been seen Takefu-specific steels more often from smiths on social media this year. Newham recently released a couple that I think were Takefu prelams with copper and vtoku2 for one, I forget the core of the other. I feel like I’ve been seeing more vtoku2 cores popping up, generally.


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## ABazes (Oct 19, 2022)

Delat said:


> I feel like I’ve been seen Takefu-specific steels more often from smiths on social media this year. Newham recently released a couple that I think were Takefu prelams with copper and vtoku2 for one, I forget the core of the other. I feel like I’ve been seeing more vtoku2 cores popping up, generally.



Quite likely. They send representatives with stock for sale to most of the major knife making and cutlery conventions.


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 19, 2022)

ABazes said:


> As @blokey mentioned, Hitachi is a larger industrial firm and produces steels for many industries whereas Takefu specializes in cutlery steels. In addition to using their own steels in the laminated stock they manufacture, they also use Hitachi steels. So, you could have prelaminated Blue Super stock from Takefu. Given that their Shiro2 is a completely different steel from Hitachi shirogami (white paper) #2, it can be a little confusing. I’m not sure why Takefu chose the name for that steel, but I have always taken it as “White Steel: TNG.” It’s a lovely steel. The nickel addition gives it greater toughness and edge stability and the chromium improves the size and heat treatment response of the carbides (which are comparatively few).
> 
> Their VToku steels are similar in composition to the Hitachi blue/aogami series, but (according to Larrin’s article on tungsten steels) they have better toughness for a given hardness and wear resistance. I think the steel should actually score even higher in his calculations because he doesn’t include the vanadium content. (I understand why he doesn’t: the specs for the steel say “less than 0.2% V,” but if you look at their other steels that have no vanadium, they don’t even list it. So, at the least, I think it always has a small but significant vanadium addition). What I CAN say with certainty is that it’s really, really nice steel for kitchen knives.
> 
> Edit: Although Takefu has a reputation for quality, it doesn’t have the brand recognition that the Hitachi steels have, so many smiths prefer to work with those to increase salability. Takefu also does not make its mono steels as widely available as its preclad, whereas the Hitachi mono steels come in stock sizes that lend themselves more to forge welding work.


Hmm okay, that makes sense their Shiro2 spec is very interesting you don't often see nickel addition in these 1% C steels. It makes sense that they focus more on cutlery stuff now that you say it. 

Their V-Toku line is part of what got me interested (I have some on the way) It seems like a straight improvement on the Aogami steels the lower carbon probably helps (and maybe they balance their steels toward the lower end of carbon and the higher end of Cr compared to the Hitachi stuff). I interpreted the Vanadium in the spec as pointing toward the fact that it is used as a gain-pinning mechanism to improve forging. As with many Japanese steels its a shame that they don't publish more specific specs (SG2 is a good example of this mess)

It seems like Takefu really pushes people to buy their preclad stuff. It would be great if they had a bit more of a variety of cores steels available.


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## superworrier (Oct 19, 2022)

It's very peculiar that Takefu has a ton of their original core steels listed on their website but you can't find many of them anywhere.


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## superworrier (Oct 19, 2022)

Perhaps if Hitachi is actually discontinuing the blue/white/yellow product lines as rumored we will see more.


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 19, 2022)

superworrier said:


> It's very peculiar that Takefu has a ton of their original core steels listed on their website but you can't find many of them anywhere.


It's possible that some or many of them are discontinued and simply posted for comparison or to hook buyers into chatting with them so they can recommend the improved steel


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 19, 2022)

Qapla' said:


> A2 tool-steel (of which V-Gin-1, i.e. Takefu V-Silver-1, is a clone) as being "silver steels"


This one too I wonder if SKD referred to only Hitachi or also the Takefu equivalents


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## superworrier (Oct 19, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> This one too I wonder if SKD referred to only Hitachi or also the Takefu equivalents


SKD is just a standard JIS grade to my understanding so it’s not specific to Hitachi


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 19, 2022)

superworrier said:


> SKD is just a standard JIS grade to my understanding so it’s not specific to Hitachi


Yes but my understanding was that Hitachi was the main supplier.


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## ABazes (Oct 19, 2022)

superworrier said:


> It's very peculiar that Takefu has a ton of their original core steels listed on their website but you can't find many of them anywhere.



It’s possible that a lot of knives made with VToku are just being sold as aogami. 



Troopah_Knives said:


> It seems like Takefu really pushes people to buy their preclad stuff. It would be great if they had a bit more of a variety of cores steels available.


I agree. I wish they made their mono steels more available, and in forms other than plate.


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## stringer (Oct 19, 2022)

I have


blokey said:


> Compare to Takefu, Hitachi is much larger and produce basically every range of industrial steel. White, blue and yellow tho are specifically referred as Yasuki steel, refers to the city it is produced, those were produced with the intention of recreating traditional carbon steel used in sword making and other cultural activities, Hitachi acquired the plant and continue to produce them. At least that's what I heard.


I can add a little bit to this because it intersects with stuff I have learned about razors. Hitachi started as a steel-making collective smelting Yasuki iron sands in tatara ovens. Think tamahagane style. Eventually it became a modern behemoth corporation and Yasuki became the marketing term for white paper steel before being mostly displaced by the white label itself. I don't know anything about Takefu.









Hitachi – Y.S.S. (Yasuki Speciality Steel)


IMPORTANT: If you want to use information of this site, please use a link to my page instead of copying parts of my pages. In that way the information will be the most up-to-date! Please als…




historyrazors.wordpress.com


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## superworrier (Oct 19, 2022)

ABazes said:


> It’s possible that a lot of knives made with VToku are just being sold as aogami.
> 
> 
> I agree. I wish they made their mono steels more available, and in forms other than plate.


Yeah I was suspicious of this. There was a whole debacle on CKTG where they sold knives as some steel but it turns out it was a different Takefu steel because they ran out of the Hitachi. Unfortunately, I cannot find the thread.


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 19, 2022)

ABazes said:


> It’s possible that a lot of knives made with VToku are just being sold as aogami.


Yes, I think so too!


stringer said:


> I can add a little bit to this because it intersects with stuff I have learned about razors. Hitachi started as a steel-making collective smelting Yasuki iron sands in tatara ovens. Think tamahagane style. Eventually it became a modern behemoth corporation and Yasuki became the marketing term for white paper steel before being mostly displaced by the white label itself.


Hmm thanks for this this is exactly the sort of info I was looking for!


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## zizirex (Oct 19, 2022)

Takefu V-Gin-1/V Silver 1 or Chromax is another name for SKD 12, which Yoshikane made famous with.

My guess is All the V Toku Steel is their generic version of Hitachi Blue steel.

IIRC, The Rainbow Damascus only comes with V-Toku, but some vendors sell it as a Blue, and some sell it as a VToku 2.


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## Strozzi (Oct 19, 2022)

@superworrier, Makoto Kurosaki had an AS line and it is now VG7. Don’t think Mark sold any VG7 as AS, just had to pivot hard and try to explain the change.


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## superworrier (Oct 19, 2022)

Strozzi said:


> @superworrier, Makoto Kurosaki had an AS line and it is now VG7. Don’t think Mark sold any VG7 as AS, just had to pivot hard and try to explain the change.


You're right! Here's the thread in question How should I do this? - ************** Forums

Guess I remembered wrong


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 19, 2022)

zizirex said:


> My guess is All the V Toku Steel is their generic version of Hitachi Blue steel.


Yeah it fills the same role but the spec has some significant differences.


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## M1k3 (Oct 19, 2022)

Some background is on their About page





About us｜TAKEFU SPECIAL STEEL CO., LTD.


We produce laminated metal sheets (roll -bonding different types of metal). Takefu Special Steel takes pride in being one of the original steel makers in Japan, to widely supply original steel products for knives (from household use to industrial machinery), industrial blade steels, and craft...



www.e-tokko.com


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 19, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Some background is on their About page
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, they really are tiny. They roll about 2000 tons of steel year to give you a sense of scale Crucible who I would consider a very small specialty steel maker make ~45,000 a year.


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## blokey (Oct 19, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Wow, they really are tiny. They roll about 2000 tons of steel year to give you a sense of scale Crucible who I would consider a very small specialty steel maker make ~45,000 a year.


Probably less than all the Aliexpress VG10 knives sold in a year.


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## M1k3 (Oct 19, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Wow, they really are tiny. They roll about 2000 tons of steel year to give you a sense of scale Crucible who I would consider a very small specialty steel maker make ~45,000 a year.


Yeah, they're main focus is Takefu/Echizen knife makers.


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## Kippington (Oct 19, 2022)

I really enjoy working with Takefu steels, both as a maker and a knife user.

Hitachi steel always felt slightly worse to me - like they take the slightly safer route. Steels that are a bit more generalised, rather than specialised... which makes a lot of sense once you see everything that Hitachi manufactures for general use.









Hitachi - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





My conformation bias tells me this is the reason why the general public complain about VG-10 being chippy.


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## Qapla' (Oct 20, 2022)

Kippington said:


> I really enjoy working with Takefu steels, both as a maker and a knife user.
> 
> Hitachi steel always felt slightly worse to me - like they take the slightly safer route. Steels that are a bit more generalised, rather than specialised... which makes a lot of sense once you see everything that Hitachi manufactures for general use.
> 
> ...


Which Takefu steels do you most often use?


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## Kippington (Oct 20, 2022)

Qapla' said:


> Which Takefu steels do you most often use?



I've forged, heat treated and used Shiro 2 (and done the same with Hitachi Shiro 2).

To answer the same question as a knife user... VG10 all day baby!!!


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## blokey (Oct 20, 2022)

Kippington said:


> I've forged, heat treated and used Shiro 2 (and done the same with Hitachi Shiro 2).
> 
> To answer the same question as a knife user... VG10 all day baby!!!


I saw some non-Japanese makers got their hands on copper Sanmai SG2, those looks pretty nice.


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 20, 2022)

blokey said:


> I saw some non-Japanese makers got their hands on copper Sanmai SG2, those looks pretty nice.


I just got some stainless sg2 Sanmai and V-toku. The same place had the mokume clad v-toku.


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## M1k3 (Oct 20, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Wow, they really are tiny. They roll about 2000 tons of steel year to give you a sense of scale Crucible who I would consider a very small specialty steel maker make ~45,000 a year.


And rumor is SG2/R2 is actually made by Kobelco.


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 20, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> And rumor is SG2/R2 is actually made by Kobelco.


Good point it's possible that Takefu itself produces very little steel and most of their steel is made under license.


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## zizirex (Oct 20, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> And rumor is SG2/R2 is actually made by Kobelco.


R2 is made by Kobelco.

SG2 is made by Takefu. I guess R2 came first, but i guess SG2 is what makes it popular.


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## M1k3 (Oct 20, 2022)

zizirex said:


> R2 is made by Kobelco.
> 
> SG2 is made by Takefu. I guess R2 came first, but i guess SG2 is what makes it popular.


I just assumed they contracted out or bought powder metallurgy steel(s), while making their own ingot steels.


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## ABazes (Oct 20, 2022)

I wouldn’t say “generic,” since I feel the alloys are actually an improvement over Hitachi blue. But no doubt it’s used as a substitute.


zizirex said:


> My guess is All the V Toku Steel is their generic version of Hitachi Blue


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## superworrier (Oct 20, 2022)

People have theorized before they don't make any steel, just roll/laminate it. The original blade steel could possibly just be ordered from an actual manufacturer. If you look at their "Major Equipment" page, it all seems like stuff for rolling and heat treating.


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## M1k3 (Oct 20, 2022)

I wouldn't be surprised if they buy in bulk from outside, then roll and laminate in their facility.


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## JBroida (Oct 20, 2022)

sorry for not reading through the rest of this, but just responding to the OP question.
Different companies entirely. Hitachi actually produces steel. Takefu has steel produced for them by various other companies (sometimes proprietary) and their main business is laminating the steel for direct use by makers.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 20, 2022)

zizirex said:


> R2 is made by Kobelco.
> 
> SG2 is made by Takefu. I guess R2 came first, but i guess SG2 is what makes it popular.





M1k3 said:


> I just assumed they contracted out or bought powder metallurgy steel(s), while making their own ingot steels.



Here's what ZKnives shows:

_SG2(Takefu) - Apparently Kobelco Steel R2 steel is supplied to Takefu, which then sells it under SG2 name. Used by Shun, Fallkniven and a few other makers. Working hardness up to 64HRC. Quite popular, high end alloy.
Manufacturing Technology - PM

Country - Japan(JP)_


_




Takefu SG2 and equivalent steel knives reviews_
_Known Aliases:
Kobelco Steel - R2, Takefu - SGPS, Takefu - MC63, Takefu - 3G_

SOURCE:


Takefu SG2 Knife Steel Composition Analysis Graph, Equivalents And Overview Version 4.36


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## ABazes (Oct 20, 2022)

Fascinating. I had assumed Takefu would manufacture its own proprietary steels, but it makes sense that they don’t, considering their business model. This also explains why they can only provide plate for their mono steel: that’s how they get it from the mill (for use in producing laminates).


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 20, 2022)

JBroida said:


> sorry for not reading through the rest of this, but just responding to the OP question.
> Different companies entirely. Hitachi actually produces steel. Takefu has steel produced for them by various other companies (sometimes proprietary) and their main business is laminating the steel for direct use by makers.


Thank you! That checks out with alot of what I've read so far!


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## jwthaparc (Oct 20, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Very interesting so would that imply that white and blue always refer to Hitachi steels? Part of why I ask is as mentioned previously in this thread Takefu and Hitachi's white and blue steel differ somewhat in composition and in my experience retailers often only post that a knife is made with "blue 1" or "white 1" and to me, this is somewhat vague.


Yeah. Usually if a store is referring to those, they will be talking about hitachi. Otherwise they generally will specifically that it's takefu.


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## jwthaparc (Oct 20, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Wow, they really are tiny. They roll about 2000 tons of steel year to give you a sense of scale Crucible who I would consider a very small specialty steel maker make ~45,000 a year.


Well. Crucible honestly aren't just a knife steel manufacturer. most of their business is in other industry.


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 20, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Well. Crucible honestly aren't just a knife steel manufacturer. most of their business is in other industry.


Sure! My point was just that even compared to other small specially steel providers they are very small.


jwthaparc said:


> Yeah. Usually if a store is referring to those, they will be talking about hitachi. Otherwise they generally will specifically that it's takefu.


I think this is of some debate in the thread some have said that they think both Takefu and Hitachi steels are sold as blue and white steel.


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## jwthaparc (Oct 20, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Sure! My point was just that even compared to other small specially steel providers they are very small.
> 
> I think this is of some debate in the thread some have said that they think both Takefu and Hitachi steels are sold as blue and white steel.


That could probably happen. I was specifically talking about whether it's the shiro2 steel or shirogami. whether they're selling one of the others as hitachi. Thats not something I'm sure about


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## jwthaparc (Oct 20, 2022)

Reading this thread though takefu seems to be more like the Niagra specialty metals than a crucible. I had no idea they were that kind of an operation, though I guess I've never looked that far into it.


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## M1k3 (Oct 20, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> That could probably happen. I was specifically talking about whether it's the shiro2 steel or shirogami. whether they're selling one of the others as hitachi. Thats not something I'm sure about


I think Hitachi has a patent or Trademark on their steel. Would be very unwise for a Japanese maker or retailer to lie about that.


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## Lurkernomore (Oct 20, 2022)

Most if not all hitachi laminate isn’t rolled by hitachi but by independent tiny shops. You can’t buy blue one Damascus laminate or stuff like that directly from them as far as I know. Smiths also order too little steel for direct orders.


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