# Tanaka, Konosuke, or Kikuichi?



## Legion

Celebrating my kitchen remodel with my first Gyuto. After doing some research I've got myself narrowed down to a few choices.

Tanaka Blue 2 Damascus Gyuto 
Tanaka R2 / SG2 Damascus Gyuto 
Konosuke NT Damascus Gyuto
Kikuichi Swedish Warikomi Damascus Gyuto 210mm
Obviously I have an infatuation with appearance of Damascus.  Aside from which knife to go with I'm looking for recommendations on what size would one recommend for a first gyuto that will be used as the main workhorse. Seems to me that 210 & 240 are the most popular. Appreciate any & all recommendations.


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## chinacats

I'd suggest the Tanaka...the damascus is a bit nicer on the R2. Size is rather personal...to me anything less than 240 feels small but again that's highly personal. What size and type knife are you currently using?


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## Marcelo Amaral

Tanaka R2.


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## Jovidah

So essentially you're asking us to pick between a carbon knife, a PM steel knife, a mystery stainless and swedish stainless steel?
Did your research consist of only looking at pictures? The selection could hardly be more diverse...

By the way, are you aware the damascus is only cosmetic?


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## Legion

chinacats said:


> I'd suggest the Tanaka...the damascus is a bit nicer on the R2. Size is rather personal...to me anything less than 240 feels small but again that's highly personal. What size and type knife are you currently using?



Currently just a moderately inexpensive knife set from Kitchen Aid. Chef knife in that set is 8". So I'd probably feel fairly at home with a 210.

PS. The pup in your profile wouldn't happen to be a Jindo?


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## Legion

Jovidah said:


> So essentially you're asking us to pick between a carbon knife, a PM steel knife, a mystery stainless and swedish stainless steel?
> Did your research consist of only looking at pictures? The selection could hardly be more diverse...
> 
> By the way, are you aware the damascus is only cosmetic?



My research involved searching for Damascus knives on this forum and cheftalk's forum. Seeing what seemed to get recommended more consistently from regular members of those forums. Look up external reviews of said (written & video) to see if there were any serious red flags that would turn me off from a particular knife. And yes, I am aware that Damascus steel is purely cosmetic which is why I prefaced this discussion that I was infatuated with the *appearance* of Damascus steel. I like the bling as I believe it is more commonly referred to on this board.


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## panda

just pick the shiniest one from your local sur la table


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## Jovidah

panda said:


> just pick the shiniest one from your local sur la table



x2... if you only care about the looks... just pick whatever you think look best. Performance, utility and suitability be damned. 
If you actually care about getting the right knife for you and your situation, start with the questionaire...


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## Legion

It sounds like you guys think Damascus steel knives are worthless. While aesthetics are clearly a part of my selection process they certainly aren't the only factor. Which is exactly why I haven't just tossed a few hundred bucks at some overpriced Shun knives or questionable Dalstrong knives. 

LOCATION
What country are you in?
US


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? *gyuto*

Are you right or left handed? *right*

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? *Japanese*

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? * 210 or 240*

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) *Would need more info as to what are the pros and cons*

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? *$400-500*



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? *home*

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.) *slicing vegetables & meats, chopping vegetables *

What knife, if any, are you replacing? *basic 8" kitchen aid chef knife*

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) *finger point*

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) *draw, push cut*

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.) *edge retention, aesthetic, ease of use*

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? *note sure what's reasonable, several months for use preparing one meal a day*



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) *Yes*

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) *yes but would need to seriously improve before sharpening an expensive knife*

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.) *yes*

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) *yes*


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## panda

dalstrong actualy not bad


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## Legion

I might give them a try for something like a pairing knife to test out. Makes me nervous that they seem to be only sold on Amazon and analysis of their reviews has quite a few red flags insinuating fake reviews.


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## labor of love

Normally Id recommend Gonbei but its out of stock. You can find swedish stainless Damascus gyutos for $150ish, thats what I would go with if I were in your shoes.


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## chinacats

Filling out the questionnaire helps. 

As to carbon vs stainless, if you clean and completely dry the knife after use then it won't matter...if you tend to leave the knife on the board while you eat, get stainless. Check out the thread 'my favorite color blue' it's a sticky with some nice pics of what carbon knives will look like in use.

If I were looking for cool damascus in a J-knife, my personal favorite is Watanabe but I think it may cost a bit more than budgeted. Aside that, I like both of your Tanaka thoughts...the blue2 is much less reactive than it was in the past (good for a first carbon knife) and it's a great cutter, the R2 looks particularly nice and will hold it's edge for a very long time. If you buy the Tanaka I'd
definitely recommend buying from James @ knivesandstones.com.

If you don't already have a nice end grain cutting board then perhaps I'd put a bit of the budget toward one. They're really nice on your edges (you'll need to sharpen less) and feel great when you cut.

As to the dog, that's a good guess...she's what I call a Samoyador (Samoyed x Lab) but I usually just call her Stella


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## daveb

Jovidah said:


> So essentially you're asking us to pick between .........





Jovidah said:


> x2... if you only care about the looks...



Back the truck up son. Glad you weren't on my welcoming committee - I would have a drawer full of Richmonds and this place would be a distant memory.


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## Ivang

you won't go wrong with a tanaka, I have knives in both his damascus lines and they are both awesome, the convex in them is really well done. the dammy in the r2 is very textured, and you can feel it dragging on your fingers while using it. the b2 is much cheaper, and the fact that they are made from carbon and pm steels is less relevant than their similitudes performance wise if you don't mind full reactive.


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## Legion

Thanks for the input guys! I am leaning towards the Tanaka R2. I'll be putting in an inquiry with James! :thumbsup: I've got a edge grain maple cherry butchers block currently. Not too bad. I'm trying to find an end grain cutting board that's 17" to fit my new sink.


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## panda

this one is hella sexy http://bernal-cutlery.shoplightspeed.com/yoshikane-sld-240mm-wa-gyuto-suminagashi.html


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## Jovidah

panda said:


> dalstrong actualy not bad


So far I can't say I've been enthused by what I saw. Chinese knock-off VG-10... Actual detail pictures didn't look very promising (both in regard to profile & grind) and all 'reviews' I've seen are just paid advertisements (like that oh so 'reliable' Burrfection guy...). 



daveb said:


> Back the truck up son. Glad you weren't on my welcoming committee - I would have a drawer full of Richmonds and this place would be a distant memory.


Sorry if I came off as overly harsh... but after basically being asked to pick between the knife equivalent of a red Ferrari, a red Volvo SUV and a red Fiat hatchback, all selected only by virtue of being red, I had some difficulty to restrain my cynicism. 



Legion said:


> Thanks for the input guys! I am leaning towards the Tanaka R2. I'll be putting in an inquiry with James! :thumbsup: I've got a edge grain maple cherry butchers block currently. Not too bad. I'm trying to find an end grain cutting board that's 17" to fit my new sink.


Fit in it or on it? And getting an end grain board will certainly help edge retention, regardless of the knife you're using on it.



Legion said:


> It sounds like you guys think Damascus steel knives are worthless.


It's not so much that they're worthless, it's just that they're a non-determinant factor in a knife's performance. They're basically a paintjob. They're like racing stripes. You can put racing stripes on a big freight truck, a racing car, an SUV, or a simple grocery shopping hatchback, but they'll have 0 degree on how they perform as a vehicle. It's the same with damascus.... it's okay to use it as one of the filters, but it's not exactly a good starting point. Especially since the big avalanche of crappy mainstream Chinese-made damascus knives.



> Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) *Would need more info as to what are the pros and cons*


This one is far more important. Roughly speaking carbon steels give you much easier and faster sharpening... at the cost of having to baby them more. You can also theoretically sharpen them to a higher degree, but I'd say that's rather academic. By having to baby I mean having to wipe them after use, and not leaving them dirty on the board after dinner prep while having dinner... It's not like you have to oil them after every use, but you don't want to leave them wet and/or dirty. If you're the type who tends to 'forget' their knife after use, or doesn't want to fuss with at least some minimal caretaking then carbon probably isn't for you. 
Carbon will also take a patina over time, which will make them less reactive and discolour the blade (sometimes in fancy ways). Whether you appreciate a patina or not is up to personal taste.
Dishwashers and throwing them around sinks is out of the question for both stainless (Japanese) and carbon so there's no difference there.
Also keep in mind that while harder metals are great for getting sharper edges and higher edge retention, they do go hand in hand with a higher brittleness. If you're the type who's abusive to their gear...well... you might want to steer towards softer steels.




> What knife, if any, are you replacing? *basic 8" kitchen aid chef knife*


Whatever you do, hang on to the old knife. As I said the higher end blades can be more fragile. It's good to have an older beater blade for jobs that are inherently abusive (chopping through bone, cutting frozen foods, cutting lobsters, yadda yadda)



> Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) *yes but would need to seriously improve before sharpening an expensive knife*


What's your current sharpening setup? Keep in mind that getting a high end knife only makes sense if you are able to keep it in top form. While there's always the option of sending it out to get that done by a professional...that does add a running cost to the use of the knife. 
Depending on what you have now you might have to reserve part of your budget for getting sharpening gear.

I'd also keep in mind that that I know almost no novice sharpeners who _don't_ negatively impact the aesthethics of their knife while they're learning to sharpen. While it is generally possible to correct these little mistakes, scratches, knicks and whatnot, I can't help but think that getting the prettiest most expensive knife you can afford as your 'starter knife' to start your sharpening carreer isn't necessarily the best idea. Even if you can afford it I would consider starting off with something on the simpler and affordable side...


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## WifeNotUnderstand

great knife, fantastic cutter and looks good

Damascus is dark and you can feel it. because it is etched so well it can drag a little on onions

KNS version with an upgraded handle 210 in length, a good size to start with





[/QUOTE]


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## chinacats

As to a cutting board, make sure and check out boardSmith...he'll make any size and the work is top notch.


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## Legion

Jovidah said:


> Sorry if I came off as overly harsh... but after basically being asked to pick between the knife equivalent of a red Ferrari, a red Volvo SUV and a red Fiat hatchback, all selected only by virtue of being red, I had some difficulty to restrain my cynicism.


 Approx same size and type of knife. I'd say it's at least a choice between several sedans. Not being well versed as to what is under the hood I might be dealing with a few different engine sizes or transmission types but that's why I got on this website to gain a better understanding of the unknown complexities of these knives.[/quote]




> Fit in it or on it? And getting an end grain board will certainly help edge retention, regardless of the knife you're using on it.


 Fit in. Ruvati RVH8300 to be specific.




> It's not so much that they're worthless, it's just that they're a non-determinant factor in a knife's performance. They're basically a paintjob. They're like racing stripes. You can put racing stripes on a big freight truck, a racing car, an SUV, or a simple grocery shopping hatchback, but they'll have 0 degree on how they perform as a vehicle. It's the same with damascus.... it's okay to use it as one of the filters, but it's not exactly a good starting point. Especially since the big avalanche of crappy mainstream Chinese-made damascus knives.


 Beyond the aesthetic, I appreciate the craft that goes into creating Damascus which is another reason I'm particularly fond of that type.




> This one is far more important. Roughly speaking carbon steels give you much easier and faster sharpening... at the cost of having to baby them more. You can also theoretically sharpen them to a higher degree, but I'd say that's rather academic. By having to baby I mean having to wipe them after use, and not leaving them dirty on the board after dinner prep while having dinner... It's not like you have to oil them after every use, but you don't want to leave them wet and/or dirty. If you're the type who tends to 'forget' their knife after use, or doesn't want to fuss with at least some minimal caretaking then carbon probably isn't for you.
> Carbon will also take a patina over time, which will make them less reactive and discolour the blade (sometimes in fancy ways). Whether you appreciate a patina or not is up to personal taste.
> Dishwashers and throwing them around sinks is out of the question for both stainless (Japanese) and carbon so there's no difference there.
> Also keep in mind that while harder metals are great for getting sharper edges and higher edge retention, they do go hand in hand with a higher brittleness. If you're the type who's abusive to their gear...well... you might want to steer towards softer steels.


 I'd probably lean towards a stainless steel knife and focus on babying it like it were made out of carbon. R2 is a stainless steel from what I'm gathering being 14-16% chromium, correct?




> Whatever you do, hang on to the old knife. As I said the higher end blades can be more fragile. It's good to have an older beater blade for jobs that are inherently abusive (chopping through bone, cutting frozen foods, cutting lobsters, yadda yadda)
> 
> 
> What's your current sharpening setup? Keep in mind that getting a high end knife only makes sense if you are able to keep it in top form. While there's always the option of sending it out to get that done by a professional...that does add a running cost to the use of the knife.
> Depending on what you have now you might have to reserve part of your budget for getting sharpening gear.
> 
> I'd also keep in mind that that I know almost no novice sharpeners who _don't_ negatively impact the aesthethics of their knife while they're learning to sharpen. While it is generally possible to correct these little mistakes, scratches, knicks and whatnot, I can't help but think that getting the prettiest most expensive knife you can afford as your 'starter knife' to start your sharpening carreer isn't necessarily the best idea. Even if you can afford it I would consider starting off with something on the simpler and affordable side...



Definitely plan on keeping my old knife around for more abusive tasks, like you mentioned, but also for practicing sharpening with until I become more proficient. All I have for sharpening currently is the sharpening steel that came with the Kitchen Aid set.


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## chinacats

Whatever you do, please don't use that 'sharpening steel' on your new knife...it's designed to straighten a rolled edge...the knives you're looking at have steel that is too hard to roll and instead will microchip.


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## Legion

Definitely, perish the thought.


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## HRC_64

are any of those claddings hand forged? I'd do some home-work on that if that's what you think you are paying for.


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## ThEoRy

Tanaka r2. Win.


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## Legion

The people have spoken! Ordered place for a Tanka R2 210mm!


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## K813zra

Legion said:


> The people have spoken! Ordered place for a Tanka R2 210mm!



Please come back and share your experiences after you use it for a few weeks or whatnot. Would love to hear how you like it!


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## Nomsdotcom

HRC_64 said:


> are any of those claddings hand forged? I'd do some home-work on that if that's what you think you are paying for.


I'd think the denoting of Warikomi would imply that the Kikuichi cladding is hand forged? but I don't actually know. I had one for a bit, but loaned it to a girl I was seeing when I went to Thailand. I think the Tanaka will serve you much better than the Kikuichi would have, though the Aeb-l was actually nicely heat-treated if I recall


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## StonedEdge

ThEoRy said:


> Tanaka r2. Win.


Full disclosure: I've never used this knife, but from the list it would also be my pick


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## Legion

K813zra said:


> Please come back and share your experiences after you use it for a few weeks or whatnot. Would love to hear how you like it!



Will do! :doublethumbsup:


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## NO ChoP!

Pick Tanaka, based simply on, I know Shigeki personally and he is an awesome dude, working his ass off in a small family run shop. Konosuke is a bit bigger animal, and they farm a bunch of stuff off. Kikuichi...meh.


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## rickg17

panda said:


> just pick the shiniest one from your local sur la table



Way to be welcoming. I mean, that right there is a really valuable contribution. 

OP - Probably the Tanaka, but the questionnaire will focus you a bit more and get, hopefully, less snotty replies.


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## panda

i was minding the impression of the OP, it appeared that he had little interest in any aspect of the knife besides looks. i didn't think it was snotty, was a legitimate suggestion. i saw later on i was wrong and offered another option slightly above budget but one that i myself would have interest in as well.


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## chinacats

rickg17 said:


> Way to be welcoming. I mean, that right there is a really valuable contribution.
> 
> OP - Probably the Tanaka, but the questionnaire will focus you a bit more and get, hopefully, less snotty replies.




You obviously don't know Panda...and if you'd bothered to read the entire thread before posting you'd of realized that the op filled out the questionnaire and has already made his purchase...and I happen to enjoy Panda's snotty (based on knowledge) replies.


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## daveb

chinacats said:


> ...and I happen to enjoy Panda's snotty (based on knowledge) replies.



He's my favorite turd, I chit you not...


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## panda

:rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2:


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## Jovidah

Legion said:


> Fit in. Ruvati RVH8300 to be specific.


Not sure about the wisdom of that idea... but I'd certainly mention it to the boardmaker before ordering to let him judge on that.



> Beyond the aesthetic, I appreciate the craft that goes into creating Damascus which is another reason I'm particularly fond of that type.


I hate to break your bubble... but 'real damascus', where the smith actually folds his own steels is really rather the exception - and usually found at a much higher pricepoint. All the lower end damascus is basically made by grinding down pre-laminated billets that are ready made in the steel factory. They just make one big slab with a core steel and all the cladding layers already in there, and the smith just grinds it down. From a nice makers view there isn't a huge amount of difference between grinding a pre-laminated billet that only has 3 layers (core + cladding on both side) versus one that has 130 layers... apart from maybe an acid etch at the end to increase the layer contrast.



> Definitely plan on keeping my old knife around for more abusive tasks, like you mentioned, but also for practicing sharpening with until I become more proficient. All I have for sharpening currently is the sharpening steel that came with the Kitchen Aid set.


The 'sharpening steel' doesn't sharpen... it's just used to straighten out a bent edge on softer steel knives. It's wholly inadequate for harder steels. At best it will do nothing... but more likely you'll just damage / chip the knife.
For these knives handsharpening on water-stones or diamond stones is by far the preferred option. Welcome to rabbit hole number 2...


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## Legion

NO ChoP! said:


> Pick Tanaka, based simply on, I know Shigeki personally and he is an awesome dude, working his ass off in a small family run shop. Konosuke is a bit bigger animal, and they farm a bunch of stuff off. Kikuichi...meh.


 Going with the R2! I take it then you've traveled out to Japan. Somewhat random question, know of any good knife making classes in Japan? Hoping to travel out there later this year and I thought taking a knife making class in Japan could be a real experience. 



panda said:


> i was minding the impression of the OP, it appeared that he had little interest in any aspect of the knife besides looks. i didn't think it was snotty, was a legitimate suggestion. i saw later on i was wrong and offered another option slightly above budget but one that i myself would have interest in as well.


Admittedly, after your original reply, I was unsure if your follow-up comments were genuine. Just honest feedback from a newbie who wouldn't know the dynamics of the various forum members. Not that I don't appreciate receiving or dolling out a bit of sass. :spiteful:



chinacats said:


> You obviously don't know Panda...and if you'd bothered to read the entire thread before posting you'd of realized that the op filled out the questionnaire and has already made his purchase...and I happen to enjoy Panda's snotty (based on knowledge) replies.


Shame one can't go back and edit the OP to indicate that they've already ordered one of the options.


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## Legion

Jovidah said:


> Not sure about the wisdom of that idea... but I'd certainly mention it to the boardmaker before ordering to let him judge on that.


Basically it extends counter space and makes it a bit easier to simply discard trimmings down the disposal. And just to be sure I'm being clear, by fit in, it will fit in an upper tier of the sink so that with a 2" thick cutting board it will be flush with the countertop. 



> I hate to break your bubble... but 'real damascus', where the smith actually folds his own steels is really rather the exception - and usually found at a much higher pricepoint. All the lower end damascus is basically made by grinding down pre-laminated billets that are ready made in the steel factory. They just make one big slab with a core steel and all the cladding layers already in there, and the smith just grinds it down. From a nice makers view there isn't a huge amount of difference between grinding a pre-laminated billet that only has 3 layers (core + cladding on both side) versus one that has 130 layers... apart from maybe an acid etch at the end to increase the layer contrast.


In this case with Tanaka, I'm going to keep my bubble and believe that Shigeki folds his own steel. Stop trying to tell me Sanata isn't real! :running:



> The 'sharpening steel' doesn't sharpen... it's just used to straighten out a bent edge on softer steel knives. It's wholly inadequate for harder steels. At best it will do nothing... but more likely you'll just damage / chip the knife.
> For these knives handsharpening on water-stones or diamond stones is by far the preferred option. Welcome to rabbit hole number 2...


 Yeah, I expected the sharpening steel wasn't the proper method for sharpening. I'll be looking into some sharpening stones to start learning on with the Kitchen Aid knife. Might look into some local classes as well.


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## Midsummer

Legion said:


> I'll be looking into some sharpening stones to start learning on with the Kitchen Aid knife. Might look into some local classes as well.



Why not start with some of the information from Jon. It is probably many times better than anything you can find locally and it serves Japanese knives, which have a higher rockwell value to the general knife. He has a whole series.

[video=youtube;GB3jkRi1dKs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB3jkRi1dKs&list=PLEBF55079F53216AB[/video]


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## parbaked

Legion said:


> In this case with Tanaka, I'm going to keep my bubble and believe that Shigeki folds his own steel.



I believe that Tanaka, Watanabe, Shiro Kamo and a number of other smiths still fold their own damascus as opposed to buying predominated billets.


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## Jovidah

Legion said:


> Basically it extends counter space and makes it a bit easier to simply discard trimmings down the disposal. And just to be sure I'm being clear, by fit in, it will fit in an upper tier of the sink so that with a 2" thick cutting board it will be flush with the countertop.


There's a few issues I would see with that construction; whether they also apply to you depends on your own length, the height of your countertops and how fantastic your lower back is:

-Putting a cutting board on top of a countertop (instead of lowered into the sink railing) effectively gives you a couple of centimeters of extra height. For me these are crucial as standard height countertops are always too low for me.
-Putting it in the sink effectively moves it quite a bit from the edge of the counter-top, thus leading to a position where you'd be leaning forward slightly constantly. For me this is a recipe for lower back pain in no-time.
-This positioning tends to put your fancy board in a rather humid and moist environment. That tends to not play well with end-grain wood... The same advantages of 'easy access to disposal' can be gained by just placing it next to the sink, just like 'extra counter space' can be gained by just tossing any kind of cheap wood on there.
If you want to go cheap you can just go to Ikea, buy the cheapest solid wood countertop, saw it to size, and you'll get several of those boards out of 1 countertop. 

Your mileage might vary, and I guess someone who actually makes boards might have a more refined opinion on them... but for the above reasons I would personally just toss the end-grain cutting board on the counter-top instead...


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