# Needle Files?



## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 31, 2022)

Do you folks have a brand of needle files that hold up better or do you generally go for the lower cost and replace approach?

Specifically talking handle making and hard woods, like filing out the tang slot.


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 31, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Do you folks have a brand of needle files that hold up better or do you generally go for the lower cost and replace approach?
> 
> Specifically talking handle making and hard woods, like filing out the tang slot


I use a broach for opening up tang slots it removes material much more quickly and I can upkeep it with EDM stones.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 31, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> I use a broach for opening up tang slots it removes material much more quickly and I can upkeep it with EDM stones.



Yeah, I have a few different saw blades and use them. I'm using the needle files to kinda tune things in. Reckon I'm worried about over doing the slot with the blades and screwing things up.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 31, 2022)

@Troopah_Knives I was eyeing this guy but it ain't cheap:









Handle Broach


This handle broach was designed by our friend, Neels Van Den Berg of Black Dragon Forge and is made in South Africa. It is utterly essential when making knifes of a hidden tang or integral bolster construction for cutting out the slot your tang fits into. It works as a thick but narrow saw...




alecsteeleshop.com


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## Hockey3081 (Oct 31, 2022)

If you’re mostly focusing on the tang slot, Jason Knight has a trick to use a couple of sawzall blades. Been a while since I saw the video but I think it goes through quite quickly compared to a broach which has fewer teeth.


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 31, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> @Troopah_Knives I was eyeing this guy but it ain't cheap:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I made mine with a leftover worn-out file on my belt grinder. If you don't the tools to make one I'd highly recommend purchasing one if you aren't fitting a lot of handles with metal in the tang slot. I find needle files are very poor choices for removing wood as they tend to clog up very quickly and their material removal rates are slow.


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## Dan- (Oct 31, 2022)

Rifflers





Rifflers - Lee Valley Tools







www.leevalley.com





Rasps





Search - Lee Valley Tools







www.leevalley.com


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 31, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> I made mine with a leftover worn-out file on my belt grinder. If you don't the tools to make one I'd highly recommend purchasing one if you aren't fitting a lot of handles with metal in the tang slot. I find needle files are very poor choices for removing wood as they tend to clog up very quickly and their material removal rates are slow.



That's what I'm finding as well. I'll focus on saws going forward.


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## ian (Oct 31, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> @Troopah_Knives I was eyeing this guy but it ain't cheap:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have one of those. Works well.


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## superworrier (Oct 31, 2022)

Do you use the broach just like a file? It looks kinda saw-like


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## Troopah_Knives (Oct 31, 2022)

superworrier said:


> Do you use the broach just like a file? It looks kinda saw-like


exactly!


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## superworrier (Oct 31, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> exactly!


It seems like this is useful for making a slot "taller" or cutting the piece between the drilled part of the tang slot, but would not really be useful for "widening" a slot, correct? (because it seems like you'd have to turn it sideways)


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## bsfsu (Oct 31, 2022)

superworrier said:


> It seems like this is useful for making a slot "taller" or cutting the piece between the drilled part of the tang slot, but would not really be useful for "widening" a slot, correct? (because it seems like you'd have to turn it sideways)


That's correct, great for making a slot in a custom handle or extending the length of the hole but they're not great for widening the hole.

I use mini rasps to widen the hole and a broach to lengthen or deepen it.


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## bsfsu (Oct 31, 2022)

Here's a Southern Hemisphere snap I just took for you "up the right way people".


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## superworrier (Oct 31, 2022)

Does anyone have an example of a mini rasp good for this? I've been using Amazon needle files and they suck.


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## tostadas (Oct 31, 2022)

Here's a sample of some of the tools I like to use.






The left is a set of mini files from big box store. The benefit of these is the low form factor. You can make a hole to barely the size you need without extra. I like this husky brand one because it comes with a handle that's wider than the cheap Amazon ones. However these are very slow to remove material.

The one on the right you might recognize as from the set of Amazon mini rasps that are sold under various China brands. They remove material fast, but if you want a narrow tang hole, like 3mm, you probably won't be able to get it due to the thickness of the tool. 

The final one in the middle was my splurge. This is a handle broach from John perry. They remove material fast, can be made narrow, and are deep enough for longer tangs. Length from front of handle to tip of broach is just over 140mm. Compared to the one linked above which is only about 90mm long. (for reference, I've had knives I rehandled that had tangs up to about 115mm). John makes these in 3/32, 1/8, 3/16, and 1/4. Very high quality steel and a lovely walnut handle to go with it. Downside is that this will set you back about $100 before shipping.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Oct 31, 2022)

tostadas said:


> Here's a sample of some of the tools I like to use.
> 
> View attachment 206233
> 
> ...



Great info, thank you. And also thank you @superworrier for the excellent questions.


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## superworrier (Oct 31, 2022)

tostadas said:


> Here's a sample of some of the tools I like to use.
> 
> View attachment 206233
> 
> ...


I can’t attest to the fast bit for the Amazon ones but perhaps I need to clean off the buildup/ perhaps just buy a new set


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## Troopah_Knives (Nov 1, 2022)

superworrier said:


> It seems like this is useful for making a slot "taller" or cutting the piece between the drilled part of the tang slot, but would not really be useful for "widening" a slot, correct? (because it seems like you'd have to turn it sideways)


Mine only has barbs on one side and my tangs tend to be pretty thick so I can actually turn them sideways and open up the hole.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 1, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Mine only has barbs on one side and my tangs tend to be pretty thick so I can actually turn them sideways and open up the hole.



I'm working on one now where the tang at it's widest point is under 3mm. About 2.3mm". I did decide to burn it in some but still some east-west filing. That's what prompted the question.


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## JoBone (Nov 1, 2022)

I used the split dowel method, so a cheap set of files is all that’s needed. In addition to those, I like corradi files as they are harder and last longer.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 1, 2022)

JoBone said:


> I used the split dowel method, so a cheap set of files is all that’s needed. In addition to those, I like corradi files as they are harder and last longer.



Thank you sir. I'm using Colton's method with the hole in the dowel.


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## JoBone (Nov 1, 2022)

This is my basic handle design - hidden split dowel. Once the shaping is complete, I start filing the ferrule with a dremel. After it’s roughed out, I finish with cheap Chinese files.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 1, 2022)

JoBone said:


> This is my basic handle design - hidden split dowel. Once the shaping is complete, I start filing the ferrule with a dremel. After it’s roughed out, I finish with cheap Chinese files.



Very cool. Thank you.


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## tostadas (Nov 1, 2022)

JoBone said:


> This is my basic handle design - hidden split dowel. Once the shaping is complete, I start filing the ferrule with a dremel. After it’s roughed out, I finish with cheap Chinese files.


Which dremel attachment do you use for that?


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## JoBone (Nov 1, 2022)

tostadas said:


> Which dremel attachment do you use for that?


Dremel 561 Multipurpose Cutting Bit, Medium​


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## birdsfan (Nov 1, 2022)

As far as rasps go, I had the same issue as you with the ones from Amazon. I bought a couple from Woodcraft retail store that are much better, a little longer, and they seem to have more bite. I know they have an online site as well.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 2, 2022)

birdsfan said:


> As far as rasps go, I had the same issue as you with the ones from Amazon. I bought a couple from Woodcraft retail store that are much better, a little longer, and they seem to have more bite. I know they have an online site as well.



Thanks! Turns out there's an outlet near my work so I made a run at lunch.


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## birdsfan (Nov 2, 2022)

Did they have them there? Mine carries a set (which is pretty pricey) and individual files in several useful shapes....thin round, flat square, and flat tapered.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 2, 2022)

birdsfan said:


> Did they have them there? Mine carries a set (which is pretty pricey) and individual files in several useful shapes....thin round, flat square, and flat tapered.



They had quite a variety and I'll have to go back when I can spend some more time perusing but today I picked up this set of large files:









WoodRiver - Rasp Set - 7" - 3 Piece


The WoodRiver® 3 piece rough cut rasp set contains a round, half round and flat (no safe edge) rasps. Rough cut rasps are aggressive and remove material quickly. Use them to do preliminary shaping of rough stock an example of which would be in shaping a chair or table leg or in carving for...




www.woodcraft.com





EDIT: Whoops that's to a rasp set and I got files. Basically the same set in terms of size and shape.


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## birdsfan (Nov 2, 2022)

These are the ones that I use, but my store sell individual rasps, like those in the set for $8.99 each









Corradi - Needle Rasp Set w/Handle


Small, quick cutting rasps are highly valued by woodworkers, sculptors and miniature builders for adding fine detail and intricate shaping to their work.




www.woodcraft.com


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 2, 2022)

birdsfan said:


> These are the ones that I use, but my store sell individual rasps, like those in the set for $8.99 each
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Cool thank you. Like I said, I will definitely be going back when I have some more time! Just saw those larger ones and that's a gap I decided to fill. Most of my larger files are decades old and have seen a lot of metal so they aren't so crisp any more.


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## northside (Nov 3, 2022)

I know the topic is on files but I’ve not seen anyone mention long shank drill bits so I’ll throw it out that and perhaps it may help someone. 

I rarely use stock much thinner than 4mm these days so a long shank drill bit makes very fast work of tang holes. It’s also incredibly cheap to buy jigsaw blades and make a cheap and cheerful handle - that is all those rather expensive Dragons Fangdangle broach tools are. (Not the same design as Troopah’s broach tool)

I hog everything out with the LS drill. Then depending on the materials use a combination of light burning (never leave the tang in for longer than a second or two), files and broach tools. I always bed my tang too.


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## martchap (Nov 4, 2022)

JoBone said:


> This is my basic handle design - hidden split dowel. Once the shaping is complete, I start filing the ferrule with a dremel. After it’s roughed out, I finish with cheap Chinese files.


Thanks for your 'process' photos — very interesting/informative! Looks like some beautiful wood, and unique.


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## jwthaparc (Nov 14, 2022)

Ive been using one of the coarse replacement blades for my coping saw. It works ok, the main complaint is it's more flexible than I'd personally like. I just snapped off one of the ends end use that. I should make one from an old file eventually. 

There is a cheap broach set I've been eyeing on Amazon, it doesn't have a good picture I can see details in, and it says in the description it's "5 sided" which I have no idea what that means when it comes to broaches, I would have thought there was just a single or double sided option for a broach, unless they are completely different than the normal broaches I see being used.


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## JoBone (Nov 25, 2022)

Corradi has a Black Friday sale going on.

https://www.corradishop.com/application/woodworking
The 8.5” are 10x2.5mm, great for tang slots. I use the smaller ones to make way for the larger ones, clear out debris and refining the corners. Cut 2 removes more material, cut 0 for final look. 

These are the ones that I am pickup up


Handy Rasps with Square Handle - Hand - 8.5″ - cut 2

Needle Rasps 6.3″ - cut 2 set of 6

Handy Rasps with Square Handle - Hand - 8.5″ - cut 0


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## Dan- (Nov 25, 2022)

Hey guys, do you just not use the higher end stuff like Liogier hand-stitched rasps because of the unit economics (not a lot of margin in knife handles) and that you’re using them where the user can’t see? For stuff like saw handles and especially furniture they’re the gold standard.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 25, 2022)

Dan- said:


> Hey guys, do you just not use the higher end stuff like Liogier hand-stitched rasps because of the unit economics (not a lot of margin in knife handles) and that you’re using them where the user can’t see? For stuff like saw handles and especially furniture they’re the gold standard.



Do they make needle files?

As to price, I'm making zero dollars as this is just my own exploration.


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## Dan- (Nov 25, 2022)

Well you say needle file, but for wood we use rasps not files (mostly). What I’d understand you are talking about is a thin triangular or round rasp.


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## tostadas (Nov 25, 2022)

Dan- said:


> Well you say needle file, but for wood we use rasps not files (mostly). What I’d understand you are talking about is a thin triangular or round rasp.


For handles, the rasp is mainly for shaping the tang hole. So it needs to be thin enough such that you don't end up with a ginormous hole.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 25, 2022)

Dan- said:


> Well you say needle file, but for wood we use rasps not files (mostly). What I’d understand you are talking about is a thin triangular or round rasp.



I get the difference and do have some rasps but as @tostadas points out, what I'm looking for is small and thin. Something that slips into say a 10mmx3mm slot and just cleans things up without hogging off too much material.


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## Bensbites (Nov 25, 2022)

I have been refining what works for a couple years. I tend to build handles with a hidden slotted dowel. I open up the tang hole on the ferrule with a milling machine (now). Not many years I would create the slot on my drill press with a number of holes in a line. Then I would angle the handle and keep drilling. Wiggle the handle back and forth until the tang slot was opened up. Once I can get files in the hole, Amazon a number of cheap mini wooden files sets that will last 99% of people years. As far as a broch tool, I use a jigsaw blade in a small vice grip. I am tempted to grab a longer sawsall blade and grind the back down to fit my needs. 

Occasionally the 6 inch drill bit (as suggested above) comes out.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 25, 2022)

Bensbites said:


> I have been refining what works for a couple years. I tend to build handles with a hidden slotted dowel. I open up the tang hole on the ferrule with a milling machine (now). Not many years I would create the slot on my drill press with a number of holes in a line. Then I would angle the handle and keep drilling. Wiggle the handle back and forth until the tang slot was opened up. Once I can get files in the hole, Amazon a number of cheap mini wooden files sets that will last 99% of people years. As far as a broch tool, I use a jigsaw blade in a small vice grip. I am tempted to grab a longer sawsall blade and grind the back down to fit my needs.
> 
> Occasionally the 6 inch drill bit (as suggested above) comes out.



Since I don't have a powered saw, I'm using a method the utilizes a shorter dowel (~40mm) with a .25" hole drilled in it. This means I do need to remove more material inside. I'm also using jigsaw blades and narrow drywall saw I've had for ages for the "rough" work. So the trick with this method is opening up the hole below the face slot in a mostly uniform way with the slot. If that makes sense...


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## jwthaparc (Nov 26, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Since I don't have a powered saw, I'm using a method the utilizes a shorter dowel (~40mm) with a .25" hole drilled in it. This means I do need to remove more material inside. I'm also using jigsaw blades and narrow drywall saw I've had for ages for the "rough" work. So the trick with this method is opening up the hole below the face slot in a mostly uniform way with the slot. If that makes sense...


You could probably use something like a dovetail saw to put the slit in the dowel by hand. Or even a coping saw if your good enough at keeping it straight.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 26, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> You could probably use something like a dovetail saw to put the slit in the dowel by hand. Or even a coping saw if your good enough at keeping it straight.



Yeah, I'm not.


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## inferno (Nov 26, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Do you folks have a brand of needle files that hold up better or do you generally go for the lower cost and replace approach?
> 
> Specifically talking handle making and hard woods, like filing out the tang slot.



i like the swiss files. vallorbe brand. 
or swedish öberg/portugeese bahco ones (same ****) they moved the factory to portugal.

to be honest i use mostly *rasps* for handles. and neither bahco nor vallorbe makes needle rasps.






Files & Rasps


Knife making supplies. Knives and Puukko. Wide selection of materials and tools including knife blades, knife steels, wood, leather, antler and synthetic materials for knife handles.




www.brisa.fi





these are good.


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## inferno (Nov 26, 2022)




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## inferno (Nov 26, 2022)

this one is also good.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 26, 2022)

inferno said:


> this one is also good.




Why? What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Sorry, but I'm not tripping so I guess I don't get it.


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## jwthaparc (Nov 26, 2022)

inferno said:


> this one is also good.



Ive never seen a needle file quite like this one.


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## inferno (Nov 26, 2022)

almost nothing i guess.

you wanna know something trippy?? go to this site with a new browser, with no adblock. yeah thats some trippy **** 4 ya.

mother of ****ing god.

-----------------

just get rasps. forget about files. files are for metals. rasps are for wood.

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if i was tripping i would have posted **** like this. 

and then again i wouldn't have posted **** here at all then. yeah.

and i'm obviously not.


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## inferno (Nov 26, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Ive never seen a needle file quite like this one.


these are the best ones.


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## jwthaparc (Nov 26, 2022)

I just want a good broach. I should make one, but it seems like a pain in the ass.


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