# Espresso at home: worth it?



## damiano (Sep 30, 2020)

Since we have had a few coffee threads recently, I was wondering how people here think about making espresso at home. Do you use a Bialetti moka, automatic machine, e61, lever? Or do you think it’s not possible to make good espresso and you can’t be bothered? There are a few vocal baristas who are of the opinion that it’s impossible to make great espresso at home. What say ya?


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## MarcelNL (Sep 30, 2020)

Pah, poppycock, espresso at home is every bit as good as pro espresso...rather it CAN be every bit as good as pro espresso CAN be.

Faema Urania, Faema Faemina and Cafelat Robot here, but you should rather ask what grinder folks use and what beans as the machine itself does not affect the result as much as Grinder Beans and person operating the machine.


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## slickmamba (Sep 30, 2020)

A good grinder, beans, and solid e61 machine does wonders at home for a solid price.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 30, 2020)

I avoid Starsux like the plague.


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## slickmamba (Sep 30, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> Pah, poppycock, espresso at home is every bit as good as pro espresso...rather it CAN be every bit as good as pro espresso CAN be.
> 
> Faema Urania, Faema Faemina and Cafelat Robot here, but you should rather ask what grinder folks use and what beans as the machine itself does not affect the result as much as Grinder Beans and person operating the machine.View attachment 96921


 
This very much. If you don't have the technique down, it will be a bad time even if you have a $4000 rocket, $1000 grinder, and $30/lb beans


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Sep 30, 2020)

While I love talking about coffee, it's futile to suggest coffee/espresso at home isn't as good as shops. Consider this: most, not all, coffee shops employ people that aren't passionate about the nuances of coffee and its equipment. If you have a machine and grinder at home (assuming it's the real deal and not bought at Walmart), you probably are pretty passionate. I'd rather have a cup from the latter.


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## damiano (Sep 30, 2020)

Maybe I should have added my own set up. I use an e61, Vibiemme Domobar, with a Macap grinder. Typically I’d buy beans along the lines of Hausbrandt, Mokaflor, Passalacqua, Diemme.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 30, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> Pah, poppycock, espresso at home is every bit as good as pro espresso...rather it CAN be every bit as good as pro espresso CAN be.
> 
> Faema Urania, Faema Faemina and Cafelat Robot here, but you should rather ask what grinder folks use and what beans as the machine itself does not affect the result as much as Grinder Beans and person operating the machine.View attachment 96921


I would argue it can be significantly better since at home I have control of the beans, grind and extraction. Helps to have a pro grade espresso maker and grinder.


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## MarcelNL (Sep 30, 2020)

@Wahnamhong try some fresh roasted beans, as in less than a month from roast date...Koffielab, stadsbranderij Noord, Fascino, plenty available!


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## damiano (Sep 30, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> @Wahnamhong try some fresh roasted beans, as in less than a month from roast date...Koffielab, stadsbranderij Noord, Fascino, plenty available!


I’ve tried some local (for me) Man met bril coffee but have to admit not being overly impressed. Am I missing something? Meanwhile I never tire of Mokaflor. Am I just a conservative Italian espresso drinker?


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## MarcelNL (Sep 30, 2020)

Wahnamhong said:


> I’ve tried some local (for me) Man met bril coffee but have to admit not being overly impressed. Am I missing something? Meanwhile I never tire of Mokaflor. Am I just a conservative Italian espresso drinker?


you probably should look for a medium to dark roast as that is the typical Italian roast pattern which is not what most roasters do anymore as it kills the origin flavors of every bean, OR you go with a lighter roast and change your extraction by increasing temperature, grinding finer and dosing less. Going from rustic Italian blends with Robusta (which I hate for their burnt tire taste) to a third wave lightish roast will result in battery acid in the cup.


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## damiano (Sep 30, 2020)

It’s funny you mention the burnt rubber taste of robusta, as I had this discussion with someone else too. 

To me, a good blend with say 20% robusta results in a chocolately, sweetish taste, whereas a 100% arabica I would typically find being too bitter. I’ve tried a lot of Italian 100% arabica melanges including expensive ones but never really warmed to them. 

I will try one of the coffees you mention upthread.


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## MarcelNL (Sep 30, 2020)

while we are at it, I'd like to know how many restaurants serve a decent coffee/espresso...I usually gently decline any offers as I have learnt that at best it's a watery drink made from beans roasted months ago at best by someone who was taught to push 'this button'. Probably need a separate poll...


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## MarcelNL (Sep 30, 2020)

Wahnamhong said:


> It’s funny you mention the burnt rubber taste of robusta, as I had this discussion with someone else too.
> 
> To me, a good blend with say 20% robusta results in a chocolately, sweetish taste, whereas a 100% arabica I would typically find being too bitter. I’ve tried a lot of Italian 100% arabica melanges including expensive ones but never really warmed to them.
> 
> I will try one of the coffees you mention upthread.



play with ratio, weigh grounds going in aim for 14g 30g out in 30-40seconds, play with temperature, pick a nice bean or a blend. Darker Italian blends are what you describe but there is more to be had!


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## damiano (Sep 30, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> while we are at it, I'd like to know how many restaurants serve a decent coffee/espresso...I usually gently decline any offers as I have learnt that at best it's a watery drink made from beans roasted months ago at best by someone who was taught to push 'this button'. Probably need a separate poll...


Oh we can do it here  Typically I prefer my own espresso at home over at least 90% of the espresso I’m being served outside. Regardless of venue: from local bar to Michelin starred restaurants.


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## Bear (Sep 30, 2020)

I'm sure that there are allot of baristas that can do better extractions than me, they do it day in and day out, dial in there grinders every morning, pull as many shots they need to get every thing set for the day. I don't live in LA, Seattle, or NYC, if I did I would probably still do it at home, its a passion just like my knives.
I've got a Izzo Alex Duetto (E61) with a with a Ceado E37 Grinder


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## Bear (Sep 30, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> play with ratio, weigh grounds going in aim for 14g 30g out in 30-40seconds, play with temperature, pick a nice bean or a blend. Darker Italian blends are what you describe but there is more to be had!


Me, I like a good lightly roasted natural a little on the funky side


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Sep 30, 2020)

Bear said:


> I'm sure that there are allot of baristas that can do better extractions than me, they do it day in and day out, dial in there grinders every morning, pull as many shots they need to get every thing set for the day. I don't live in LA, Seattle, or NYC, if I did I would probably still do it at home, its a passion just like my knives.
> I've got a Izzo Alex Duetto (E61) with a with a Ceado E37 Grinder


You give them a lot of credit...yeah some higher end coffee houses may, but most places hire Joe off the street. Its not a high paying job, so unless the owner is pulling your shot I wouldn't give them too much credit. Living in NYC or Seattle, your chances for a great shot go up, but random places in small town USA the chances are pretty low.


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## Tristan (Sep 30, 2020)

Yes of course. At home you extract the way you like it. Acidity temp grind etc.
why not just do what I do, buy a genecafe and roast your own greens?


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## Runner_up (Sep 30, 2020)

I'm fully manual over here, and far prefer the espresso I am able to pull at home compared to the majority of Cafes here in Boston. (That being said there is great coffee to be had here, and many skilled/knowledgeable baristas)

I use a Cafelat Robot along with a 1Zpresso JE Plus grinder. Using a Stagg EKG kettle I can set everything up, boil water, grind beans, pull the shot, and then wash and put everything away in 6 minutes or less. Not too shabby. On the weekends I use a bellman stovetop steamer so I can froth milk for cappuccinos/lattes/flat whites for the lady and I.

With this set up I want for nothing:
- Doesn't take up much counter space
- Quiet (I pull my first shot at 5am - neighbor's bedroom is right under my kitchen, and my girlfriend is still asleep)
- Quick, with very streamlined workflow compared to some other lever machines
- Little maintenance needed when compared to a traditional espresso machine
- The cost of the Cafelat Robot + kettle + grinder + milk steamer is still less expensive than a fairly entry level espresso machine, and you would still have to add a quality grinder to that. I consider this setup a huge value for the quality of espresso one is able to pull.


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## WildBoar (Sep 30, 2020)

There is already a big espresso thread on KKF, but what the hey. Home-brewed is definitely worth it, even if the machine and grinder cost you $10k. Still.Worth.It!

(get a great grinder, and if possible a 'real' espresso machine)


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Sep 30, 2020)

Not that I have an issue with this topic here, look at my avatar, but this is the key website to get any answers you need.









Home-Barista.com - Espresso Machine & Coffee Grinder Reviews, How-Tos and Discussion Forums


Reviews of coffee, espresso machines and grinders, how-tos, and resources for the home espresso and coffee enthusiast. Discuss barista techniques, get buying advice, and share opinions with other espresso fans.




www.home-barista.com


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## Moooza (Sep 30, 2020)

It's a great hobby, and what I find amazing if just how much more there is still to learn.

I have a Cafelat Robot like some others on the forum, and a Niche Zero grinder. Incredible combination. My espresso is better than I can buy at a cafe in most cases.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 30, 2020)

You guys with the robot. Do you think it can be used successfully in a campervan? Asking for a friend


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## Moooza (Sep 30, 2020)

Just need boiling water. Pair with a hand grinder for basically off-grid usage.


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## Runner_up (Sep 30, 2020)

^ What he said. 

@Moooza What color is yours? I have the retro green but wish I could've gotten one of the early aluminum ones. I met Paul, the owner of Cafelat, when he came to Boston a few years ago for SCE.


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## Moooza (Sep 30, 2020)

I have the green too. I love it. Paul seems like a great guy. There may be more aluminium ones on his site eventually. They take much longer to produce with all the manual polishing.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 30, 2020)

I've sent Paul a couple emails over the last few weeks and never got a response. Has Cafelat shutdown for Covid?


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## MarcelNL (Oct 1, 2020)

Tristan said:


> Yes of course. At home you extract the way you like it. Acidity temp grind etc.
> why not just do what I do, buy a genecafe and roast your own greens?


Huky 500 roaster here, roasting is great but yet another rabbit hole!


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## MarcelNL (Oct 1, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I've sent Paul a couple emails over the last few weeks and never got a response. Has Cafelat shutdown for Covid?


Usually Paul is pretty good at getting back, commerce runs through the cafelatstore though and he temds to be travelling for business regularly


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## MarcelNL (Oct 1, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> You guys with the robot. Do you think it can be used successfully in a campervan? Asking for a friend


I use it when camping, like mentioned, all you need is some boiling water and beans ground at home or using a hand grinder. (heck you could even use the preground supermarket stuff with the pressurized basket in the Robot)


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## Matus (Oct 1, 2020)

If @FoRdLaz enters this discussion, you will be in a deep trouble 

I went from dreaming about a nice espresso machine (I never got one prior to Corona & HomeOffice because it would not make sense financially) to a french press, manual coffee grinder (I WILL be buying an electric one soon though, the manual grinding got old pretty fast) and a Ottoni lather maker and found that I just LOVE the taste if the fresh coffee with some Oatley Hafer milk. I completely lost interest of making expresse or proper cappuccino at home - in spite of the fact that even most decent restaurants or coffee bars can't make a good espresso around here (just a bitter/sour dark liquid).


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## MarcelNL (Oct 1, 2020)

PLenty of great ways to enjoy coffee, and all of them can get you results that are far better than what is usually served commercially. Even a cheap vintage lever machine such as an Arrarex Caravel does the trick and can compete with multi $$ new machines.

BTW:
Coffee Sterols are a repeating debate in th community, a combination of a high LDL and high consumption of French press coffee may warrant using a paper filter.


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## Tristan (Oct 1, 2020)

Who wants to live forever. 
pour some milk into your coffee and give it more dimensions.
Oh and make it look like a painting while you pour.


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## Nagakin (Oct 1, 2020)

Y'all have me questioning if I even have a good reference point for tasty coffee.


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## damiano (Oct 1, 2020)

The reason for me starting this thread is that I'm having a discussion with a friend, who claims that making espresso at home isn't easy. 

He points to experts, like James Hoffmann, Scott Rao, Matt Perger, Tim Wendelboe, and Nick Cho. Has anyone read something by these people who could disprove his claim?


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## Moooza (Oct 1, 2020)

All incredible World Barista Champions or contenders. And never, have any said that great espresso at home is impossible.

Good grinder, good machine and you'll be fine. James Hoffman on YouTube is a fantastic starting point.

But it's definitely easier and cheaper to get great results with filter coffee using a hand grinder and a V60 or Hario drip.


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## MarcelNL (Oct 1, 2020)

Once you cut through the weeds it boils (pun intended) down to the info Jim Schulman collated on HB:
Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

is that impossible at home? Hardly I'd say, do folks struggle? Yes, and mostly because they do not follow the steps outlined in the article and start messing around with more than one parameter. A bit like as if I would start buying a J Knife, and immediately try to thin it, sharpen it, reprofile it and polish it without even knowing what stone to use how and when...is it impossible to do all that at home, nope.


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## Lars (Oct 1, 2020)

Wahnamhong said:


> The reason for me starting this thread is that I'm having a discussion with a friend, who claims that making espresso at home isn't easy.
> 
> He points to experts, like James Hoffmann, Scott Rao, Matt Perger, Tim Wendelboe, and Nick Cho. Has anyone read something by these people who could disprove his claim?


It's easy to make bad espresso anywhere, but making good espresso is both possible and basically requires the same things no matter if you are at home or at a coffee shop.
Capable gear, good water and beans and the skillset to make it happen.


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## Tristan (Oct 1, 2020)

Honestly my tastebuds don’t run into the same problems some of the coffee forum geeks do. They speak of off tastes and taints from grinds and rituals, static and poorly applied WDT grinds and what type of water is used to spritz etc.
I get the love of detail, but my tongue tells me when it’s good or not. And maybe my tongue isn’t as talented as the world barista cupping judges. But that’s ok too. 
Long winded way of saying hell yes great espresso is possible at home


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## Corradobrit1 (Oct 1, 2020)

Moooza said:


> There may be more aluminium ones on his site eventually. They take much longer to produce with all the manual polishing.


Don't hold your breath. Paul confirmed he will not be making any more polished aluminium versions.


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## LostHighway (Oct 1, 2020)

Since no one else has addressed this a moka pot is *not* espresso, it doesn't generate enough pressure for one thing.
As everyone else has already noted you absolutely can get espresso at home that equals or exceeds in quality that of 99% of the coffee shops out there. The only catches are that there is a learning curve and that you will have to throw some money at the project, probably a minimum of $1k+ if you're buying new in the USA (scale, grinder and espresso machine). 
Given my tastes, budget, and personality I decided not to buy an espresso set-up for home. Even judiciously buying used gear I'm certain I would soon be in the multiple thousands of dollars bracket and that just doesn't make sense for me. I'm fairly happy drinking pour over, AeroPress, or vacuum siphon coffee. I will gladly drink someone else's excellent or even decent home espresso, just as I will gladly go out for an afternoon on their sailboat While I have an investment in makers, a decent grinder, scale, Thermapen, and water filtration it still is a fraction of the buy-in for good home espresso.
If you can afford it and enjoy and drink enough espresso to make it worth while for you by all means go for it but don't let the notion that you can't make good espresso at home dissuade you because that simply isn't a valid reason.


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## WildBoar (Oct 1, 2020)

LostHighway said:


> Since no one else has addressed this a moka pot is *not* espresso, it doesn't generate enough pressure for one thing.


I gave up pointing that out to people years ago. Whatever makes them happy... 

In Italy it seems pretty common for people to use moka pots at home -- and to consider the finished product an espresso -- even though it is really not. Whatever floats their boat.

I don't get the 'can't make good espresso at home' claim that caused the OP to start this thread. You can get the same (and often far better) beans then many of the coffee shops, buy the same commercial grade grinders (used Mazzer Super Jolly, etc.), and buy a commercial-grade espresso machine. You can even have better control over the water filtering. Now is it financially feasible to do this? Probably not for many people, but if you make a couple a day at home you will be ahead financially vs going to a coffee shop daily after a few years.


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## Goorackerelite (Oct 1, 2020)

yeah espresso at home can be much better. Cause you can control the temp, extraction time, grind size, roasting choice and most importantly, water quality. most cafes use R.O water that is pure but has no minerals for that mouth feel.


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## Luftmensch (Oct 2, 2020)

You've asked two separate questions in your post.

Espresso at home: worth it?
Do you think it’s not possible to make good espresso
The first question is subjective. There is no right answer. It depends completely on who you are asking.

The second question is clearly false. Lets answer it with logic. There is nothing industrial or specialised about making espresso. You don't need $20M equipment or a bespoke production line. If the world's best barista is wealthy enough, they can buy all the equipment they use at work and make exactly the same coffee at home.

From all the responses here... it is clear that if you value espresso, you can make a bloody good drink at home. I would say there is one advantage to cafe espresso and an opposing advantage to home espresso. 

At a cafe, a good barista will be constantly adjusting the grind in response to the beans and atmosphere. On average this means customers will be getting great espresso - there might be one or two unfortunate souls whose coffee is slightly sub-optimal (but still good enough). At home, you don't put out the same volume, so it is harder keep chasing the optimal grind settings with small adjustments. If you only make 3 espresso a day, either you will waste more beans per cup adjusting or accept slightly sub-optimal espresso.

The opposing advantage is that when you make espresso at home... if you don't like the shot, just keep pulling shots until you do. You don't have to kick up a fuss and send the coffee back or put up with a bad cup.

I choose the 'sub-optimal' coffee route. Why? I don't like waste and can't be bothered being neurotic about settings. I adjust the grinder for a new set of beans and leave it until the beans are gone. Despite changes to the temperature, humidity and age of the beans. This means the grind is only really 'optimal' for a narrow combination of those parameters. But what does it mean to be 'sub-optimal'? You might not be constantly pulling 'god-shots', but you are likely always making excellent espresso.


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## Tristan (Oct 2, 2020)

Fine grinder adjustment. one notch every other day to compensate for beans degassing. Nothing else needed.
like knives, just buy, cut sharpen repeat and you’ll know the truth more than 99.9% of the people out there


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## damiano (Oct 2, 2020)

@Luftmensch Thanks for the detailed and analytical reply! I chose the "sub-optimal" route as well, but just like tristan's post above I feel I'm perfectly able to judge for myself if I like an espresso or not.


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## MarcelNL (Oct 2, 2020)

IMO there is just more room for folks to live out their OCD traits with espresso, you really see the same with every hobby; polish my knives ? heck no, I'm using them....(no offense to anyone who wants a shiny knife)
I am following a middle road between comfort and consistency; 

I'm using a timer on my grinder to prep consistent doses to avoid single dosing, I do clean out the throat of the grinder and I'm using an ultra- mini hopper to avoid beans going stale in it, grinder adjustments are minimally required -I haven't had to tweak the grind for over a week now (using three different single origins in parallel).


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## Luftmensch (Oct 2, 2020)

Wahnamhong said:


> I feel I'm perfectly able to judge for myself if I like an espresso or not.



So you should!  




MarcelNL said:


> IMO there is just more room for folks to live out their OCD traits with espresso, you really see the same with every hobby



I guess that is the thing! There is soooo much room for OCD in espresso! Everybody gets to choose how much care they put into the experience. It is easy enough to have really great espresso at home without much fiddling. But if a person finds joy in chasing the dragon, more power to them!


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## WildBoar (Oct 2, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> At a cafe, a good barista will be constantly adjusting the grind in response to the beans and atmosphere. On average this means customers will be getting great espresso - there might be one or two unfortunate souls whose coffee is slightly sub-optimal (but still good enough). At home, you don't put out the same volume, so it is harder keep chasing the optimal grind settings with small adjustments. If you only make 3 espresso a day, either you will waste more beans per cup adjusting or accept slightly sub-optimal espresso.
> 
> The opposing advantage is that when you make espresso at home... if you don't like the shot, just keep pulling shots until you do. You don't have to kick up a fuss and send the coffee back or put up with a bad cup.


First point -- many cafes don't have good baristas who constantly adjust grind. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen a barista time a pour, inspect the crema or look at the puck for channeling, etc. before knocking it into the trash. I'm sure there are places with baristas who actually do this stuff, but here in the DC area most are about keeping production up with the demand.

Second point -- there is no reason to continuously fiddle if you pull shots daily. As Tristan said, just a minor tweak every couple of days should easily keep ours within a second or two if you are still drawing from the same batch of beans. I buy 5 lb bags of beans, and vacuum seal/ freeze in batches that last about one week each.


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## Tristan (Oct 2, 2020)

I think home roasting is very underrated or rarely considered. A small batch roaster handles 250g which is about 14 or so drinks. That’s 3 days for a couple.
Takes literally minutes.
Get lots of bang for your buck too, since greens are so much cheaper than roasts.
if you go single origin arabica you don’t even need to mess with blends.


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## gregfisk (Oct 2, 2020)

If you’re someone who buys a fancy coffee drink every morning then I do think it makes since. There are maintenance issues with espresso machines and if you can’t fix them yourself you’ll need to factor that in. Gaskets wear out and leaks happen but I really enjoy making my own coffee and you can definitely make a better cup than you can normally buy.


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## WPerry (Oct 2, 2020)

My best at home is not as good as the very best that I have available locally, but it's still good and definitely better than anything within caffeine-depraved stumbling distance. Waking up and walking to the kitchen in my boxers is way better than getting dressed and driving 20 min round trip for something that might be marginally better. 

Currently using an HX e61 (Quickmill Anita) and Mazzer Mini. Thanks to recently finding James Hoffman on YouTube, among other things, I'm considering some upgrades.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 2, 2020)

My Robot came in yesterday
Takes up tiny amount of counter space. Like it's quality build & simplicity.

That said haven't used it don't have a grinder yet. My Camano hand crank no way. Have espresso grinder on order.

Do have good source for beans. Didn't want to go cheap espresso machine market is loaded with those. Like you want quality espresso at a reasonable price.


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## WildBoar (Oct 2, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> If you’re someone who buys a fancy coffee drink every morning then I do think it makes since. There are maintenance issues with espresso machines and if you can’t fix them yourself you’ll need to factor that in. Gaskets wear out and leaks happen but I really enjoy making my own coffee and you can definitely make a better cup than you can normally buy.


I hear you, but I think if you are on a kitchen knife forum, and can sharpen knives, you can easily replace gaskets in an espresso machine and tighten the odd weeping nut/ bolt.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 2, 2020)

Keith Sinclair said:


> My Robot came in yesterday
> Takes up tiny amount of counter space. Like it's quality build & simplicity.
> 
> That said haven't used it don't have a grinder yet. My Camano hand crank no way. Have espresso grinder on order.
> ...


My favorites outside of Seattle:




__





Red Bird Coffee







redbirdcoffee.com








__





Caffe Fresco Specialty Coffee Roaster - Testimonials







caffefresco.us


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## Runner_up (Oct 2, 2020)

^^Funny you say that- today I've had 5 shots of Redbird's blue jaguar blend. Really yummy. I have another 4 lbs in the freezer and consider it a go-to.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 2, 2020)

Good to have local roasters. Pea berry Kona medium roast considered good for espresso & can get it much cheaper than on the internet 10 minute drive from my house.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 2, 2020)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Good to have local roasters. Pea berry Kona medium roast considered good for espresso & can get it much cheaper than on the internet 10 minute drive from my house.


I'm seriously jealous. I have about 4 lbs of kona from Sweet Marias in my freezer, but wish I could get pea berry kona (green so I can get a lot).


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## Luftmensch (Oct 3, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> First point -- many cafes don't have good baristas who constantly adjust grind. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen a barista time a pour, inspect the crema or look at the puck for channeling, etc. before knocking it into the trash. I'm sure there are places with baristas who actually do this stuff, but here in the DC area most are about keeping production up with the demand.
> 
> Second point -- there is no reason to continuously fiddle if you pull shots daily. As Tristan said, just a minor tweak every couple of days should easily keep ours within a second or two if you are still drawing from the same batch of beans. I buy 5 lb bags of beans, and vacuum seal/ freeze in batches that last about one week each.



In other coffee posts i have gone out of my way to bring attention to cultural differences. I guess I should do that again. I can only speak for Australia and more specifically: Sydney. Again... I am not saying coffee here is better or worse than any other country. Just a different culture and a palate.

My experience is that on average, Sydney cafes produce _decent_ espresso. Many restaurants as well. They might not be sublime drinks but it would be dramatic to recoil from them in disgust. Just like you can choose to go to good restaurants, you can choose to go to good cafes! Metropolitan Sydney has a lot of cafes that make decent espresso.

As I have said previously, Australia benefited from Italian (and Greek) immigration after WWII. Immigrants found themselves in a country without deep traditions. We're also a wealthy country. So although our coffee culture inherits from Italian traditions - we were 'free' to experiment with it. I believe we use lighter, more caramely roasts and MILK. Aussies and Kiwis fight over who invented the flat-white. Suffice to say, it is an Antipodean 'invention'. Thanks to cashed up bohemians, yuppies and hipsters, coffee culture here is pretty serious - particularly in the inner city where there is urban renewal.

I wouldnt be surprised if Australia has played a disproportionate role in shaping the 'third wave'. Coffee and brunch are a very Australian institution. Just like you can meet up with a friend for a drink, here you can meet up with a friend for a "coffee". The term is so ubiquitous it is used as shorthand for socialising over a non-alcoholic drink, generally before the evening. It is not unusual for participants socialising over "coffee" to have a tea or juice. Since we're pretty tea mad as well, cafes are fairly competent in that department!

So I think it is a different story here. Baristas _will_ adjust grinds here. Previously I chose the word constant... I agree that gives the wrong impression. In the transitional seasons there can be a temperature swing from the pre-work morning rush to the post lunch haze. Decent baristas will compensate for that. It definitely wont be after every shot but it wouldnt be unusual for the grinder settings to be different across the day. And like you say, in minor tweaks. I think it is just a different cultural standard. More is expected from our baristas here. For instance, basic coffee art (hearts, leaf) is another common skill here. While I wouldn't say it is done at the majority of cafes, it is common enough that it is unsurprising.

Now; super artisan coffee? Of course you can find it here! But like everywhere else, it is a niche.


Ozzies (@Moooza, @friz, @Michi, @Nemo, @juice). I'd be keen to hear your perspective?



Back to the second point. At home: i agree. I only make 3 doubles a day. The routine is just to set and forget (unless things get really out of whack). But if I were a commercial barista, I would watch my shots and make small adjustment every couple of hours if required.


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## friz (Oct 3, 2020)

Thanks @Luftmensch for tagging me.
To this thread I can't be of huge contribution, but I try to put down few points that I consider interesting.

I have been living in Canberra for 3 years now, before I was in Sydney and before that I was in Italy, where I come from.

As an Italian, the way I grew up, coffee is a reason and an excuse to invite people over, or to visit friends/relatives. It is very common to enjoy coffee at home rather than having to go to a coffee shop/bar. Coffee at the bar was for breakfast outside, when we are lazy preparing it at home, for a boost of caffeine on the go (we Italians we do not take away coffee to my knowledge, we actually consume it on the bar bench, standing), or to digest, after any meal of the day.
Other than that, it is consumed at home.

At home we use the Italian coffee pot, works on the gas stove (not ideal with the induction). Ground coffee and water, that's it. I am not a fan of the coffee machine for home use. Coffee machines for home are very practical and faster and cleaner than the coffee pot, but the quality is not the same, to me at least. 

To answer "Espresso at home: worth it?", for me it is totally. First it is much cheaper than having coffee outside, you also get to drink from your favourite ground coffee and you can add how much you desire of GRAPPA!!! or PRUGNA!!! - which are liquors commonly add to the coffee, for real men. Secondly, as I said, it is nice to invite friends over your place, and what is better than a good coffee to get all together.


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## Moooza (Oct 3, 2020)

Coffee in Melbourne is life...

Of course good cafes change grind throughout the day! Matt Perger works closely with St Ali. Au43 has the new Victoria Arduino Eagle One and were trained by James, Market Lane coffee has someone who previously worked for Square Mile, it goes on and on. These guys absolutely know what they are doing and basics like dose, extraction and timing are always considered. You can always tell the 'good' places in Melbourne, they generally have EK43 grinders. These places also usually roast their own coffee too.

A few years ago it used to be hard to find good coffee in Sydney, but is now easy enough to find if you know where to look.

There's talk of what the fourth wave of coffee will be. Matt Perger's got a new puck prep technique based on that recent paper that suggested a coarser grind will help with extraction. Ben from Sub-Zero coffee is freezing coffee properly so it becomes like wine vintages which can be stored indefinitely or the new wild species of beans bringing new flavours (like Yemenia).

But I think the fourth wave is already happening - crowdsourcing good equipment to the home user. Niche Zero, The Decent espresso machine, Robot, Kafatek, etc. Excellent home espresso is so accessible now, not to forget the incredible info available via Youtube.

But honestly, most of the time, a great V60 or Hario cloth drip pot is something else and my preferred way to drink coffee.

Oh, and I should say, I single dose and have an infinitely variable grinder. I adjust my grinder after almost every shot. Usually it's very small changes, but coffee does change over time, and my puck prep changes as I 'learn' how to get the most out of that bean.


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## friz (Oct 3, 2020)

Moooza said:


> Coffee in Melbourne is life...
> 
> Of course good cafes change grind throughout the day! Matt Perger works closely with St Ali. Au43 has the new Victoria Arduino Eagle One and were trained by James, Market Lane coffee has someone who previously worked for Square Mile, it goes on and on. These guys absolutely know what they are doing and basics like dose, extraction and timing are always considered. You can always tell the 'good' places in Melbourne, they generally have EK43 grinders. These places also usually roast their own coffee too.
> 
> ...


@Luftmensch What he said!


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## Marek07 (Oct 3, 2020)

To specifically answer the OP's thread title "Espresso at home: worth it?" *Abso-bloody-lutely!*
As many have mentioned, a great espresso can be made at home. And one needn't take out a mortgage for the privilege - even a modest set up will do the job admirably. A few judicious choices around beans, roast, grinder, grind, water, dose and tamping and you're set.

As @Luftmensch mentioned, "going for a coffee" with people is a synonym for socialising. And that's the only reason I drink coffee outside of home. Or rather it was when we were allowed to go out for one! I'm from a very locked down Melbourne.


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## friz (Oct 3, 2020)

Why no Italian moca pot? What do you think about it?


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## friz (Oct 3, 2020)

@crocca86


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## Luftmensch (Oct 3, 2020)

Thanks @friz, @Moooza, @Marek07!

I steered the thread off-course - so sorry to the OP! Coffee culture interests me, I couldn't pass the opportunity to discuss it. In my limited travels, I have come to appreciate coffee from here more so. But I also simultaneously recognise this is cultural.



friz said:


> As an Italian, the way I grew up, coffee is a reason and an excuse to invite people over, or to visit friends/relatives. It is very common to enjoy coffee at home rather than having to go to a coffee shop/bar. Coffee at the bar was for breakfast outside, when we are lazy preparing it at home, for a boost of caffeine on the go (we Italians we do not take away coffee to my knowledge, we actually consume it on the bar bench, standing), or to digest, after any meal of the day.



I suppose here we do the English "come over for tea" and we go out for "coffee". It is interesting about take away coffee. I think I noticed the same in Spain? People would consume coffee at the bar. I once saw a person in Sydney order a takeaway macchiato. It seemed so silly to me! He walked away with this tiny takeaway cup and saved himself at most two minutes.



Marek07 said:


> As @Luftmensch mentioned, "going for a coffee" with people is a synonym for socialising. And that's the only reason I drink coffee outside of home. Or rather it was when we were allowed to go out for one! I'm from a very locked down Melbourne.



 Soon! Its been bad for you guys. Good to see the numbers coming down.




friz said:


> Why no Italian moca pot? What do you think about it?



I am curious about this as well. My sister happily uses one of these. The only thing she misses is the ability to make decent flat whites or piccolos.






Moooza said:


> A few years ago it used to be hard to find good coffee in Sydney, but is now easy enough to find if you know where to look.



If I had to choose a decade, I would say 'decent' coffee started in the 90's (yuppies?). Maybe it lagged the decline of the tuck shop and milk-bar by a decade or so? But my memory could be failing me here? By modern standards the coffee of then might be a bit crude. But I think there was a proliferation of cafes catering to the brunch crowd. At that time it was probably seen as decent and maybe it was!

I would say decent coffee is mainstream in the 2000's and artesanal coffee is budding but fringe. By 2010 I would say that artesanal coffee is a recognised minority finding a market in trendy, gentrified areas (hipsters?).

I could be wrong... that is my rough recollection. And I suppose it depends on how you define 'good' - but I would say it is worth recognising that our standards have increased with our understanding.

I dont know how home coffee features in this? When did espresso at home become more mainstream??



Moooza said:


> But honestly, most of the time, a great V60 or Hario cloth drip pot is something else and my preferred way to drink coffee.



I have been meaning to explore drip coffee more... Cold drip sounds really appealing on those 30+ days!!


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## friz (Oct 3, 2020)

Good point there @Luftmensch . At home with coffee pot we only make espresso. You don't do macchiato capuccino with those. 

NOW, why in Australia I order capuccino and there is literally only half a centimetre of foam? Isn't capuccino supposed to be with lots of foam? 99% of the times Australia disappoints me with their capuccino......


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## camochili (Oct 3, 2020)

To answer to the initial question: yes, no doubt about it. 
I love to wake up, getting started slowly and having my first espresso without leaving home. Especially on weekends it's my first task... ok, second. Cats won't wait untill machine heated up 

I agree with the posts before, that a grinder and beans are more important than the machine. In fact it takes a lot of try and error to get the right coffee, but when you got it, it's great. 
The grinder might not even be the most important, but the grind itself. I would suggest to speak to a barista of trust to get a first indication of how to do it.
But anyway, go for it. I'm sure you won't regret it.


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## damiano (Oct 3, 2020)

friz said:


> To answer "Espresso at home: worth it?", for me it is totally. First it is much cheaper than having coffee outside, you also get to drink from your favourite ground coffee and you can add how much you desire of GRAPPA!!! or PRUGNA!!! - which are liquors commonly add to the coffee, for real men. Secondly, as I said, it is nice to invite friends over your place, and what is better than a good coffee to get all together.



Grappa! Yes, that's another good reason to have espresso at home. Though I have become partial to the Spanish 'carajillo' as I have them in Barcelona. It's an espresso with a shot of simple Baileys - really good!

I also love the coffee from a moka pot, but not as much as from my Vibiemme, plus the moka is more work. I do have a Bialetti at home for when my machine needs service. Typically when I holiday in Italy the coffee in small airbnb or b&b is from a moka pot.


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## friz (Oct 3, 2020)

Wahnamhong said:


> Grappa! Yes, that's another good reason to have espresso at home. Though I have become partial to the Spanish 'carajillo' as I have them in Barcelona. It's an espresso with a shot of simple Baileys - really good!
> 
> I also love the coffee from a moka pot, but not as much as from my Vibiemme, plus the moka is more work. I do have a Bialetti at home for when my machine needs service. Typically when I holiday in Italy the coffee in small airbnb or b&b is from a moka pot.


Baileys is for women.


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## damiano (Oct 3, 2020)

@friz Lol! Look, I love grappa. I have a bottle of Marolo grappa di moscato sitting here. But I much prefer to drink grappa on its own, especially this quality. You should try the Baileys - it's an underrated classic drink. In an espresso it's like adding a little bit of cream. I also like it straight on the rocks.


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## daveb (Oct 3, 2020)

friz said:


> Baileys is for women.



I like women


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## Chuckles (Oct 3, 2020)

The biggest win for me making espresso at home is being able to choose the beans myself. I don’t think my tastes are mainstream enough to get fully satisfied at a coffee bar. If you have specific tastes you will be rewarded by taking plunge into DIY.

It is like learning to free hand sharpen knives. If you have a specific edge you prefer you will be much better off sharpening yourself so you can choose your own stone progression and process for each stone.

Trying to explain the flavor profile I am chasing with espresso is like trying to tell a coworker about the dream I had last night. Their eyes just glaze over and they are instantly bored. Best off just figuring it out myself and cherishing the quiet moment when I get the first sip of victory to start the day while everyone else is still sleeping.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 3, 2020)

Sounds like down under has good coffee culture. 

Been told by roaster guy that Hawaii has a growing number of Barista. I'm just not in touch with it yet.

I once bought a bottle of Italian Amaretto put in my coffee. Must have liked it, used it all up.


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## MarcelNL (Oct 3, 2020)

Australia is like an espresso Haven when compared to all countries except Italy, coffee is a rapidly growing market almost everywhere, some of it is really good but food companies gobble up a large share without any real change other than different marketing nonsense....(preground) barista coffee, barista milk, etc etc


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## Lars (Oct 3, 2020)

Italy is the epicenter of poor espresso. Dark roast robusta-blends and under-dosed shots. Doesn't matter that they have a great culture around coffee, they drink pretty bad stuff.
I do agree that cappuccino should only be enjoyed in the morning though.


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## Rotem Shoshani (Oct 3, 2020)

For what it's worth, I was into coffee long before the kitchen and Jknives.
The only downside to a high end setup is that it really takes the fun out of drinking coffee outside.
Beans I'm getting from Colonna in the UK. I get em in Israel in less than a week.
Me and my wife consume about 1.5kg/m
Little more during the pandemic. 

Rocket Evo with rotary pump.
Grinder is Eureka Mignon Speacialita.

Worth every single penny. Take good care of it, it'll outlast every knife you own. I've seen machines of the caliber of up to 15 years and still kicking ass.

Technique is everything, good setup is a bonus (58mm grouphead of course, not your office Nespresso crap).


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## Dakota Day Trader (Oct 3, 2020)

Here's a quick shot of my humble at home setup, as well as my thoughts on home coffee:






A while back I used to shoot IDPA. With any kind of shooting sport, there are people who buy ammo and people who reload their own ammo. I was talking with a great shooter (who also reloaded) one day about how much you can save going that route, and his answer was:

*"You don't really save money. You just shoot more on the same money."*

I didn't truly understand what he meant until I got into home brewing. Here's the math that made the lightbulb go off for me.

Let's say I go to Starbucks 3 times a week (not uncommon), and spend an average of $4 each time. I drink Flat Whites, which are just espresso and milk - no flavor. This ran me about $12 each week. Some weeks were more, some less, sometimes I got a free drink, etc. Regardless, the average was about $12 a week.

When I bought my Breville espresso maker, which was just over $500 on sale at Kohl's a few years ago, I figured out that I could *make* my own Flat Whites at home for just over $1 each. In my mind, that was saving me about $9 a week _in theory._..

The reality was much different.

Why? Because now that I have this super awesome, incredibly convenient espresso maker right in my own kitchen, I have a Flat White EVERY day. It's part of my morning routine. Sometimes I even have a second one when I'm dragging butt later on in the day. For arguments sake, let's say that I make a second Flat White 3 times a week. Now I'm just over $10 a week with my home machine.

And *THAT* is when I understood what "You just shoot (drink) more on the same money" meant. Because of the convenience and lower cost, you do it more often.

That said, I have been extremely happy with my purchase, and have told my kids that if the house was on fire and everybody was safe, if I could go back in for something it wouldn't be a computer or money - it would be the damn espresso maker!!!

Also I use Death Wish Valhalla Blend coffee exclusively in it. I've tried Starbucks brand (actually from the store) as well as Lavazza, Kicking Horse, and a few others I can't remember, and for me, DW is hands down better than all of them, so put me in the "I can make it cheaper AND BETTER at home" camp.

Finally, I can even make it quicker. If you look at my setup, there is a Breville "Frother" next to the espresso maker. My wife got this a while back for making hot chocolates and heating up stuff, but then stopped using it. I use it to heat the whole milk I use to the perfect temperature while I'm pulling the espresso shots. The frother also has 2 mixers, one for regular froth, and one for Extra froth (which is WAY too much froth, if that's possible), so the milk is perfect and consistent time after time as well!

All in all, I started brewing at home and have never regretted it for a minute.


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## WildBoar (Oct 3, 2020)

Lars said:


> Italy is the epicenter of poor espresso. Dark roast robusta-blends and under-dosed shots. Doesn't matter that they have a great culture around coffee, they drink pretty bad stuff.
> I do agree that cappuccino should only be enjoyed in the morning though.


It's been 10+ years since I last visited Italy, but back then it was definitely the dark roast blends and a lot of hit-you-over-the-head robust shots. While I have ordered some beans like that here in the States I prefer some of the much more flavorful roasted beans I can get from smaller US roasters. Italy was a great introduction to espresso for me, and I hope it has evolved there over the last 10 years.

As far as cappuccinos go, I have no problem drinking them in the afternoon, or even after dinner. And I have ordered them after dinner in Italy. I really don't care what the 'rule' is about it -- that's pretty silly in my opinion.


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## MarcelNL (Oct 3, 2020)

I don't agree that Italy is the epicenter of poor espresso, that epicenter MUST be the US ;-)
In Italy I have had horrible espresso too, yet on average they do OK, not stellar but OK. Sure they love their dark roast with a pinch of Robusta, not roasted anytime recently...but still...setting my own preference for single origins, of a recent medium roast aside, they do what they do pretty well. With a dark roast 14 gram simply works, it;s the Italian official norm, like the US claims the 'world series'they claim the standard espresso recipe for the world


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## camochili (Oct 3, 2020)

ever tried the "bica" in Portugal? People may not see it as the first or best Espresso that comes into everybodys mind, but it has a long tradition, too. Dark and strong... Love it.


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## WildBoar (Oct 3, 2020)

Hey now!

We also claim World Champions for the teams that wins the SuperBowl and NBA championships. We might claim it for NHL (hockey) as well.


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## Rotem Shoshani (Oct 3, 2020)

Regarding Italy.. the coffee culture has largely changed over the decades and what used to be the coffee capital of the world is no more. Most of that due to the second wave of coffee and the fact the coffee industry had to change due to competitive pricing, eventually affecting quality and control to mass produced product.

You can rarely find a decent cup of coffee, but when you do, it's marvelous.

Also, they're still the kings of machines and hold the world's best brands when it comes to machinery as the knowledge they gained over the years is light years ahead of what any other culture could posses.

One of my wet dreams is a bag of Gardelli Speacilty, but even I can't justify the overall cost of a shipped bag.

The sensual black liquor called espresso is still theirs to claim, and we owe it all to Italians.

And let's face it, when traveling, they still offer one of the best coffee experiences in the world. No hotel that I ever went to in Italy has served me an American diner style black coffee


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## WildBoar (Oct 3, 2020)

All this talk about quality espresso at home guilted me into giving the machine a good cleaning earlier this afternoon


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## MarcelNL (Oct 3, 2020)

american and style and coffee in one sentence....hmmm


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## WildBoar (Oct 3, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> american and style and coffee in one sentence....hmmm


Yes, unfortunately we were the launching pad for Starbucks. I don't think we will ever recover from that.


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## parbaked (Oct 3, 2020)

FWIW, one can argue that the US is the epicenter of 3rd wave coffee...


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## gregfisk (Oct 3, 2020)

So, in 1982 I started my company installing, servicing and monitoring alarm systems. This is the same year Howard Schultz started working at Starbucks. Shortly after, we installed the alarm system in their commercial building on Airport Way So. in Seattle. This was a very old wooden building that was in pretty bad shape located in the industrial part of Seattle. This is also the building where they roasted the beans and it was before they had retail coffee shops which was Shultz’s idea. I was fortunate and was able to watch and talk to their one coffee roaster who was roasting coffee daily for the couple of weeks I was there. It was a large roaster with a chimney that was about 3 story’s high. Our office was fairly close to theirs and when the wind was blowing in the right direction the smell was fantastic. Every couple of months, or at least it seemed like that, you would hear the fire engines heading towards the Starbucks building because the chimney was on fire. This went on for some time until they finally fixed the problem. A few short years later Howard Shultz bought the company, they started opening coffee shops and the rest is history.


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## Tristan (Oct 4, 2020)

Coffee in Italy was largely awful As mentioned above, though espressos after meals at good places was still ok.
The dedicated coffee and cafe subculture in countries like Australia has elevated it far beyond the origin of the food.
A busy street kerb cafe in Sydney or Melbourne would be Far more likely to serve a good coffee than a busy place in Italy.
Increasingly Singapore is taking after that AU cafe trend too. Though I’ve not checked recently I’m sure the same would have been going on in London and NYC/SF et al

Also I’m a huge fan of milk based espresso variants, which is a newer thing vs the Italian pot. 
I give mad props to Starbucks for creating a food culture, then leaving so much headroom for improvement that cafes flooded in to fill the vacuum.
Without Starbucks, it would be 2 more decades before great coffee is ubiquitious


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## ref (Oct 4, 2020)

Wahnamhong said:


> There are a few vocal baristas who are of the opinion that it’s impossible to make great espresso at home. What say ya?



They are incredibly wrong. You can get shots _at least _as good as most cafes easily, and you can get shots as good as most good cafes. However, it is _not _a cheap hobby, and unless you're drinking a couple doubles a day, it will be more expensive than it's worth (in terms of monetary value). But the point of the hobby is not to save money.

Here's a summary:

- To get a [automatic, not manual lever] real espresso, you need to spend roughly at least $500 (and this comes in the form of a machine like the Barista Express, which is technically real espresso because you're using a non-pressurised portafilter combined with a grinder that can match it, the downsides is that it's a cheap machine, there are no readily available spare parts, and the warranty is 1yr. But still a great option). But to get _great _espresso, you're looking at >$1500 (~$1000 for something like the Lelit Mara, $500 for a grinder. Or a cheaper machine and more expensive grinder, but it's around there).

- You then need to factor in the price of the coffee, and you absolutely need fresh beans. You then need to factor in waste dialing in a shot (which can be very wasteful when you're learning). There's also electricity costs (some machines need a lot of preheating), water costs (ideally you would use soft filtered water), and general maintenance of the machine (even cheap machines like the BE need back flushing/descaling; grinders need cleaning somewhat often.

It's an expensive hobby. But if you love espresso, and you're not near a cafe, there's no alternative.

But remember that $1500 is 5 $300 knives.


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## gregfisk (Oct 5, 2020)

ref, you are absolutely correct in that it’s not a cheap hobby. Maintenance on an espresso machine is a must. Gaskets and O rings fail and you really need a filtration system on the water that you use in your machine. We have a LaSanMarco that is plumbed in and we have two filters that we replace once a year. Even with good water scale builds up in time. Plus you must keep your machine clean and back flush on a regular basis. The burrs on the grinders also need to be replaced at some point.


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## WildBoar (Oct 5, 2020)

I didn't look into the boilers of my La Marzocco until the machine was about 7 years old. I was very happy to see they were scale-free. Our water is not hard, and the filtration consists solely of a Brita pitcher/ filter. At that ~7 year period I replaced a handful of copper crush washers and some gaskets. The pressure relief valve craps out ever couple of years, but other than that I haven't had to put much time into maintenance. The first few years I would turn the machine on in the morning, and off after I pulled the shots, but ever since I have left it running 24/7.


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## Moooza (Oct 6, 2020)

I think this question has been answered. 

Now I really want to use espresso in a good tiramisu recipe. Anyone got a good one?


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## damiano (Oct 6, 2020)

Moooza said:


> I think this question has been answered.
> 
> Now I really want to use espresso in a good tiramisu recipe. Anyone got a good one?


Tiramisu recipe? This one follows the Carluccio recipe I use. Classic Tiramisu Make sure to get good quality lady fingers as they won't break up easily when coming into contact with the espresso.


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## Tristan (Oct 6, 2020)

I like the tiramisu recipe from Bravetart.


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## MarcelNL (Oct 6, 2020)

Wahnamhong said:


> Tiramisu recipe? This one follows the Carluccio recipe I use. Classic Tiramisu Make sure to get good quality lady fingers as they won't break up easily when coming into contact with the espresso.


Funnily that is the exact same recipe as I learned when doing a series of workshops by a Sicilian chef some 15 years or so ago


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## MarcelNL (Oct 6, 2020)

Scale? you can avoid it withour filtration units, I'm using R Pavlis recipe to buffer mineral free water to avoid the pH to eat away on the boiler using a rotation pump to fill the boiler every two three days, never had to descale in over 3 years now.

to maintenance, sure maintenance is required but: gaskets don't break the bank, I replaced the group seal and piston gaskets last summer for the first time in 2 years. Backflush? Whatsthat,
Levers stay cleaner than pump machines, no backflushing needed or possible.
Burr sets, life expectancy depends on what grinder and which burrs you use, my SSP 84mm discs will not likely wear down in my lifetime or I will have to open a coffee shop. Lifespan: over 10.000 pounds, a double espresso is a14-15 grams. Over 300.000 shots, or like 90 years @10 doubles a day.


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## Honerabi (Oct 6, 2020)

You guys haven't even mentioned roasting your own coffee beans. Sick!


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 6, 2020)

Honerabi said:


> You guys haven't even mentioned roasting your own coffee beans. Sick!


Quite a few on here do, including yours truly. Just roasted some Rywanda coffee today, will try tomorrow doing pourover.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 7, 2020)

Yep this and other threads home roaster guys.here.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 7, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> Hey now!
> 
> We also claim World Champions for the teams that wins the SuperBowl and NBA championships. We might claim it for NHL (hockey) as well.



Don't forget women's world champions football. The round ball


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## Honerabi (Oct 7, 2020)

Have been on the verge of picking up a roaster. More equipment! Considering the Gene Cafe, Hottop, or AWC BK. On the fence.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 7, 2020)

Honerabi said:


> Have been on the verge of picking up a roaster. More equipment! Considering the Gene Cafe, Hottop, or AWC BK. On the fence.


You didn't even mention not having a roaster. Sick!


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## MarcelNL (Oct 7, 2020)

Honerabi said:


> Have been on the verge of picking up a roaster. More equipment! Considering the Gene Cafe, Hottop, or AWC BK. On the fence.



the difference between most gas and electric heated roasters is large, in the end it depends on budget and batch size you are looking for...my tip would be to think bigger than you'd expect as in no time you have a bunch of folks wanting your beans, you can buy greens far cheaper than roasted product, and consumption likley goes UP. 
A roaster typically is good for about 80% of rated capacity, don't make the misstake many do and by too small.

MacGyvering roasting also works great for smaller batches; hardly any investment and pretty decent -if not very repeatable- results! (I've been using a converted Illy can on a cordless drill over a propane stove for almost two years, cranking out 130-150g batches with good to great results)


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## Chuckles (Oct 7, 2020)

Man, yet another rabbit hole.

First knives, then stones, then razors, then espresso, now roasting coffee....

What’s next? Where does it end!!!


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 7, 2020)

It doesn't end...this is one of my cheaper hobbies...help us all...


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## MarcelNL (Oct 7, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Man, yet another rabbit hole.
> 
> First knives, then stones, then razors, then espresso, now roasting coffee....
> 
> What’s next? Where does it end!!!



Easily Audio....you cut only so much stuff while cooking, you drink only so much coffee a day, did you ever consider how many hours you listen to music? Per hour audio is easily my cheapest hobby


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 7, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Quite a few on here do, including yours truly. Just roasted some Rywanda coffee today, will try tomorrow doing pourover.


BTW, the Rwanda is smooth and fruity...love it. Roasted it to city+.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 7, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> Easily Audio....you cut only so much stuff while cooking, you drink only so much coffee a day, did you ever consider how many hours you listen to music? Per hour audio is easily my cheapest hobby


My Sonus Fabers are about paid for 8 years later.


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## MarcelNL (Oct 7, 2020)

Rwanda is not my cup of tea, very personal. My current favorites are a Papua New Guinea and a Colombian, usually I keep like 4-5 different greens in stock.

Hmm my speakers were already paid for decades ago...why are they still so expensive?? SF, great choice, I used a setup quite similar to their Extrema's for a good while before going full range.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 7, 2020)

Haha I'm joking they were paid for when I bought them. Rywanda is just something I tried. My favorite cheaper coffee is Costa Rican, but gotta love kona, JBM, and I have some rare Panama geisha greens too.


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## MarcelNL (Oct 7, 2020)

I was joking too, I'm using vintage -used- speakers chassis that have been paid for now at least twice and te last time they cost nowhere near what they likely did cost when brand new.


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## WPerry (Oct 7, 2020)

I used to work in audio, so I'm thankful to have scratched that itch with industry discounts and hook-ups. 

Now I just need to figure out where to get a job in cutlery or espresso.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 7, 2020)

WPerry said:


> I used to work in audio, so I'm thankful to have scratched that itch with industry discounts and hook-ups.
> 
> Now I just need to figure out where to get a job in cutlery or espresso.


Hey I'm retired military and still can't get a decent discount on another hobby, firearms. lol


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## WildBoar (Oct 7, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Man, yet another rabbit hole.
> 
> First knives, then stones, then razors, then espresso, now roasting coffee....
> 
> What’s next? Where does it end!!!


Buying your own plantation so you can grow your own beans.

(yeah, I know a couple who did this about 5 years ago -- they gave up their businesses, relocated from US down to Costa Rica and took over a plantation.


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## Chuckles (Oct 7, 2020)

That sounds hard. I think I would rather just spend the money on a week taking baths with Murray Carter.


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## parbaked (Oct 7, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> I think I would rather just spend the money on a week taking baths with Murray Carter.


I think you have to help him build the bath first, or at least pay for it before you can enjoy it...


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## Chuckles (Oct 7, 2020)

Another rabbit hole. Bath building.

I get it on the audio thing. I have actually picked up some great headphones from this forum over the years. I have never hesitated to invest in sound. Biggest bang for buck upgrade to any living situation for me.

Sorry for derailment, I haven’t learned enough about beans yet to really contribute on topic.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 7, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> Another rabbit hole. Bath building.
> 
> I get it on the audio thing. I have actually picked up some great headphones from this forum over the years. I have never hesitated to invest in sound. Biggest bang for buck upgrade to any living situation for me.
> 
> Sorry for derailment, I haven’t learned enough about beans yet to really contribute on topic.


I think roasting is the cheapest; as most outcome of any hobby of mine. Get a Behmor and your off and ready to go. For under $500 initial costs you are in business for a long time, 5-10 years at least...here is a good source:






Behmor 2000AB Coffee Roaster Bundle | Roastmasters.com


Behmor 2000AB Coffee Roaster Bundle - Roastmasters.com is proud to carry the Behmor 2000AB Coffee Roaster Bundle.




www.roastmasters.com


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## Chuckles (Oct 7, 2020)

I think it’s only a matter of when. That Behmor is one knife. Ugh. What to sell..


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## 4wa1l (Oct 8, 2020)

I've found that a manual Flair lever machine with a hand grinder makes a pretty good espresso for not too much outlay. Certainly better than much of what you will have at a cafe. Not quite at the level of the best shots that you can find though. This setup does have it's cons though. You're limited to darker roasted beans, it takes a fair bit more work than a standard espresso machine and no milk unless you add on a stand alone stovetop boiler with wand.

For my tastes a V60/pour over setup is where home coffee really shines. With a V60, filters, hand grinder and narrow spout kettle, you can make very good coffee at home for relatively little money compared to a high end espresso machine setup. Of course it's different from espresso, but it's pretty amazing the sorts of flavours you can get from two ingredients. Furthermore you can geek out and tinker as much or as little as you want with grinds, ratios, timing etc...

Just to add on about a grinder. I have an older version of the Aergrind here (Aergrind Grinder for Aeropress). I've found it to give a pretty consistent grind and when I purchased it, it represented great value. Not too sure how it stacks up now.


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## Luftmensch (Oct 9, 2020)

ref said:


> It's an expensive hobby. But if you love espresso, and you're not near a cafe, there's no alternative.



Fully agree! The entry price is high but the running costs are fairly low. I was lucky to get a good deal but if I had to replace my machine or grinder I think I'd easily be able to justify it. It is just too embedded in our daily routine to give up (and doubly so with CoVID working from home).




gregfisk said:


> Maintenance on an espresso machine is a must. Gaskets and O rings fail and you really need a filtration system on the water that you use in your machine. We have a LaSanMarco that is plumbed in and we have two filters that we replace once a year. Even with good water scale builds up in time. Plus you must keep your machine clean and back flush on a regular basis. The burrs on the grinders also need to be replaced at some point.



Good points! And it is expensive if you outsource this to a commercial technician. Most of it is pretty simple stuff and within anybody's capability after an hour or so of Googling (or less). If you don't value your labour... this cuts the costs down to raw parts - which are fairly in expensive.


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## Luftmensch (Oct 9, 2020)

Lars said:


> Italy is the epicenter of poor espresso. Dark roast robusta-blends and under-dosed shots. Doesn't matter that they have a great culture around coffee, they drink pretty bad stuff.





WildBoar said:


> back then it was definitely the dark roast blends and a lot of hit-you-over-the-head robust shots





MarcelNL said:


> In Italy I have had horrible espresso too, yet on average they do OK, not stellar but OK. Sure they love their dark roast with a pinch of Robusta, not roasted anytime recently





camochili said:


> ever tried the "bica" in Portugal? People may not see it as the first or best Espresso that comes into everybodys mind, but it has a long tradition, too. Dark and strong... Love it.





Rotem Shoshani said:


> Regarding Italy.. the coffee culture has largely changed over the decades and what used to be the coffee capital of the world is no more. Most of that due to the second wave of coffee and the fact the coffee industry had to change due to competitive pricing, eventually affecting quality and control to mass produced product.
> 
> You can rarely find a decent cup of coffee, but when you do, it's marvelous.



I guess this is what I mean about cultural awareness! On average, we grow up with a palette that is shaped (and continually adjusted) by the foods in our respective cultures. 

I mirror the observations of Italian espresso but am not willing to say it is 'bad' (or even American coffee ). As far as value judgements, I think it is only fair to say "it is not what I like in an espresso". If an Italian came here, they might find our coffee weak and overly milky?





Lars said:


> I do agree that cappuccino should only be enjoyed in the morning though.





WildBoar said:


> As far as cappuccinos go, I have no problem drinking them in the afternoon, or even after dinner. And I have ordered them after dinner in Italy. I really don't care what the 'rule' is about it -- that's pretty silly in my opinion.





I agree... rules!? Pah! You like what you like! Personally, I only have cappuccinos after meals. Typically not before noon. I treat them as a transition to dessert since they are commonly served with a garnish of coco powder here. But that is just me. I have friends and family that will have them anytime they choose. 





Tristan said:


> Coffee in Italy was largely awful As mentioned above, though espressos after meals at good places was still ok.
> The dedicated coffee and cafe subculture in countries like Australia has elevated it far beyond the origin of the food.
> A busy street kerb cafe in Sydney or Melbourne would be Far more likely to serve a good coffee than a busy place in Italy.
> Increasingly Singapore is taking after that AU cafe trend too. Though I’ve not checked recently I’m sure the same would have been going on in London and NYC/SF et al



Definitely. I wouldnt be surprised if trained baristas are a minor export of Australia? Australia has many migrant workers taking up jobs in hospitality. Many of them would take those skills/culture home. There is a lot of exchange between Australia/NZ and her geographic neighbours (Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, HK). Also her cultural neighbours (UK, Canada, USA) - I know London has a small bubble of Ozzie caffes in Soho and Kangaroo Valley.


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## WildBoar (Oct 9, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> I guess this is what I mean about cultural awareness! On average, we grow up with a palette that is shaped (and continually adjusted) by the foods in our respective cultures.
> 
> I mirror the observations of Italian espresso but am not willing to say it is 'bad' (or even American coffee ). As far as value judgements, I think it is only fair to say "it is not what I like in an espresso". If an Italian came here, they might find our coffee weak and overly milky?


3 out of my 4 grandparents were Italian, born in Italy. So I am well with in my cultural bounds  to say I think the espresso is very bold/ rustic, and short on nuanced flavor. And that has it's place. I drank enough of it in a couple trips to Italy to appreciate it for what it is.

But I also know there can be a lot more to it. I started ordering from Counter Culture shortly after getting an espresso machine. The flavors that came out of those beans were a significant difference (and, to me, an improvement) to that I drank in Italy. After a couple of years CC beans had gotten so expensive I needed something a little more economical. A DC-area roaster that had mainly services office buildings resurrected their long-departed coffee shop, and they started roasting a lot of single-origin beans. Since they sold in 5 lb bags, and I could easily drive over and pick them up, I switched to them for a couple of years. Their two espresso blends were fairly one-note and very robust, very much like what I had in Italy. I got these beans for about 2 years before switching back over to something a bit more flavorful, and I have stuck with this other roaster now for 3-4 years (Ceremony Coffee Roasters out of Annapolis). It is just more enjoyable to slowly drink this while reading the paper in the morning than drinking the robust stuff (which you want to drink fast to get it over with).


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## Rangen (Oct 9, 2020)

Never had espresso as good as what I can make at home. Everything has to be just right, though. Grinder is the most important part. I like using Yemen beans (I roast), roasted not over two weeks ago. Older coffee can pass with other brewing methods, but espresso is merciless, exposing any flaws.

Then there's the technique. I was getting oranging until I got a leveler and a convex tamper. I had to use a scale to figure out the right tamping pressure.

When it all came together, it was glorious.


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## Rangen (Oct 9, 2020)

Honerabi said:


> Have been on the verge of picking up a roaster. More equipment! Considering the Gene Cafe, Hottop, or AWC BK. On the fence.



Roasting is indeed a rabbit hole. After cast iron pan (don't recommend) and hand-cranked popcorn popper (worked until the cast metal gears broke, decent results), I got a Hot Top and put 300 roasts on it. It worked well, for an appliance roaster with a 1/2 lb capacity. It's sitting in a cabinet now (I could be persuaded to sell it), because I got a real roaster.

Definitely check out home barista and more dedicated forums if you want to go down the path. There's a very interesting roaster, made by a guy in Taiwan, which uses an induction burner. Name escapes me. But some people who are very serious about roasting have been using one for years. That's if you're inclined toward the managing-it-yourself route.


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## MarcelNL (Oct 12, 2020)

Rangen said:


> Definitely check out home barista and more dedicated forums if you want to go down the path. There's a very interesting roaster, made by a guy in Taiwan, which uses an induction burner. Name escapes me. But some people who are very serious about roasting have been using one for years. That's if you're inclined toward the managing-it-yourself route.



You may be looking for the Huky 500, it comes from Taiwan, and is using an infrared burner.

OR

The Aillio Bullet roaster is using induction, Danish design, Taiwan production (a bit more expensive than the Huky).


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## Rangen (Oct 12, 2020)

MarcelNL said:


> You may be looking for the Huky 500, it comes from Taiwan, and is using an infrared burner.



Yes, thanks, the Huky is the one I had in mind.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 14, 2020)

Just got this in yesterday, looking forward to getting it dialed in.


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## WPerry (Oct 14, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Just got this in yesterday, looking forward to getting it dialed in.



Let us know how it goes. Also, do you have any beans that you've had difficulty with that you plan to try again? I gave up on lighter roasts on my HX, but if I didn't have to temp surf and added pressure profiling, I'd want to give them another whirl.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Oct 14, 2020)

These are the beans I use and never had any issues:




__





Red Bird Espresso


Red Bird Espresso is blended from a collection of top-grade coffees from both sides of the equator. All the component coffees come from farms that are Rainforest Alliance Certified™; Rainforest Alliance Certified™ farm and forest operations meet comprehensive standards that protect the...




redbirdcoffee.com




&




__





Caffe Fresco - Suggested Espresso - Ambrosia Espresso Blend







www.caffefresco.us


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## WildBoar (Oct 14, 2020)

That machine looks sweet! And my grinder says 'hi'.


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