# New vs Vintage Sabatier



## Kane06 (Jan 27, 2014)

Hello, I've been lurking on the forum for some time and have been interested in your beautiful array of kitchen knives. I have wondered however about the lack of posts on current production sabatiers, has there been a reduction in quality amongst the major brands (K-sabatier, elephant, etc.)? thanks for your help!


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## Benuser (Jan 27, 2014)

Haven't seen recent Thiers-Issard for years. Are they still being produced? Didn't note anything special about Sabatier Aîné & Perrier, makers of the K-Sabatier. Some people prefer old ebony handles over POM, I guess, and some salesman has introduced a myth about recycled steel being used since the 1980's. As by accident he happened to have built a large stock of blades from before that time.


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## longhorn (Jan 27, 2014)

I believe there has been some loss in quality over the years, but I have never handled a vintage Sabatier that had not been used for decades by professional cooks who knew how to sharpen and get the most out of a knife. I have never handled an unused/barely used vintage Sabatier. That being said I have owned a K-Sabatier slicer I believe it was 23 or 24cm, as well as two paring knives both 9cm one stainless the other au carbone. All knives performed well, and the price point is very reasonable. 

I believe the knives definitely haven't improved, but I cannot say if they have gotten worse. Maybe try some vintage ones you can buy for a steal and see what you think before springing for a brand new one.


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## Dave Martell (Jan 27, 2014)

New Sabatiers are junky. They feel cheap/clunky, they're often bent/twisted NIB, and worst of all - stainless. :vmc:


Welcome to KKF!


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## Benuser (Jan 27, 2014)

Sorry Dave, K-Sabatier still produces carbons. Not specially clunky as far as I've seen. As for warped, twisted and bent blades, the old ones were much worse.


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## Dave Martell (Jan 27, 2014)

Benuser said:


> Sorry Dave, K-Sabatier still produces carbons. Not specially clunky as far as I've seen. As for warped, twisted and bent blades, the old ones were much worse.




I didn't know they still made carbons, that's good to hear.

On the warps (etc) I've seen the complete opposite of what you mention.


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## Benuser (Jan 27, 2014)

Sure you've seen much more vintage French carbons than I ever did. I've never seen one with a straight spine, but most of the time, the warps etc were ground out, and they had got a more or less straight edge.


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## Canadian (Jan 28, 2014)

I've handled a few new "carbone" K-Sabatier knives and they are good. With a good thinning they cut just as well as my Misono swedish--they take as sharp an edge. Contrary to popular belief, the steel they use in France for most production knives is pretty good. 12C27 is one of the most popular "Stainless" steels and their carbon steel is usually 1075, which is a mighty fine grained and pure carbon steel. Based on my experience with the K-sabs I would guess they were either 1075/1095.


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## Benuser (Jan 28, 2014)

K-Sabatier use XC75 as it is called following the French standardization AFNOR.


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## Kane06 (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks very much once again!


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## Benuser (Jan 28, 2014)

Canadian said:


> Contrary to popular belief, the steel they use in France for most production knives is pretty good. 12C27 is one of the most popular "Stainless".


As for the stainless, I know only Opinel for using the Sandvik, others still use soft German steel or worse.


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## joetbn (Jan 29, 2014)

Last year i bought a carbon K sab 8" chefs knife for my roommate, a store in Cambridge sells them. Fit and finish were very inconsistent, the guy at the store let me pick from 6 he had in stock and each one was different, particularly the bolster thickness and how well (or not) the handle fit. I picked the one with the best handle fit and straightest blade, and ground down the finger guard/bolster enough with a hand file to let me thin and sharpen all the way to the heel. For a $60.00 knife and a couple hours work, it's pretty decent now. I like the steel, it sharpens up well and seems to have pretty good edge retention and isn't too terribly reactive. It's a good fit for her because she is a fan of European style knives, and in general a fan of all things French in the kitchen. All said and done though, a 210mm Fujiwara FKH is only a few bucks more and much much much better fit and finish, thinner behind the edge, no finger guard, and comparable if not better steel and HT. I've heard good things about the "Elephant" Sab's being sold buy The Best Things, including some newly ground Nogent's from 60 year old forgings, but I haven't seen one in person yet. The thing about Sab's is it's hard to make blanket statements on quality, there are two or three separate companies making carbon Sab's now, and pre-WWII there were dozens.


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## Canadian (Feb 1, 2014)

Benuser said:


> K-Sabatier use XC75 as it is called following the French standardization AFNOR.



1074/1075 are same damn thing.

XC75 is the french standardization term for the aforementioned steels.

It's a great steel for kitchen cutlery.


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## CoqaVin (Feb 1, 2014)

Canadian said:


> 1074/1075 are same damn thing.
> 
> XC75 is the french standardization term for the aforementioned steels.
> 
> It's a great steel for kitchen cutlery.



Is that the steel you see labeled on most German made knives wusthoff henckles etc?


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## Canadian (Feb 1, 2014)

Benuser said:


> As for the stainless, I know only Opinel for using the Sandvik, others still use soft German steel or worse.



Doesn't line up with my experience. Have you been to Laguiole? Theirs? The most common steel I came across from knife makers both small and large was 12C27. I've also seen certain tool steels and the rare powder steel being used in some of the smaller workshops. Maybe K-Sab uses so-called "soft" stainless, but they are not the rule.

What's with the characterization of all Solingen steel being soft or "worse"? This is predicated upon the steel used and the heat treat. I've encountered "chippy" white II steel, but I don't characterize all Japanese steel as "chippy". 

I have a knife made from German "silver steel"--look it up. Hardened to about 59-61 HRC it is the best steel I have ever used. 

I think the requisites that make a good kitchen knife steel (for western cooks) is one that take a very keen edge easily, holds it for a decent amount of time (SV30 not necessary) and possesses some degree of toughness (for cutting through soft joints, squash, etc.).


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## Canadian (Feb 1, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> Is that the steel you see labeled on most German made knives wusthoff henckles etc?



No, I don't beleieve the big conglomerates make knives in carbon steel. We are talking about French carbon steel knives--particularly K-Sabatier.


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## CoqaVin (Feb 1, 2014)

oh my fault what is the name of that steel anyways? xrmo or whatever it is


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## Canadian (Feb 1, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> oh my fault what is the name of that steel anyways? xrmo or whatever it is



X50CrMoV15 or some variation of it.


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## CoqaVin (Feb 1, 2014)

what is that anyways and what the avg HRC


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## DSChief (Feb 1, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> what is that anyways and what the avg HRC



http://www.zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/articles/kkchoser/kksteelp2.shtml#X50CRMOV15

Hrc is usually in the 55-57 range


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