# Kato geometry



## mark76 (Jan 8, 2016)

I was wondering what you impression is of the geometry of a Kato knife. They are usually described as convex, but I view many of their geometries as full flat grinds. I realize they differ somewhat due to being handmade, but still..

This is my Kato:





On the left side it is somewhat (slighty) convex, on the other side it might even be concave.

What are your experiences?


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## Asteger (Jan 8, 2016)

I think if you look at Kato from heel to tip you miss the boat, because the geometry isn't consistent along the blade. It's more convex in the middle and less so at heel and tip. Perhaps you see a flat grind looking right at the heel, but that doesn't capture it. 

I'll re-use something I wrote earlier, although you contributed on that thread too and maybe have already read it:



Asteger said:


> ... the grind is inconsistent. I haven't really heard people say this aside from talk of Kato 'hoodoo-voodoo' .... I don't mean inconsistent as in 'bad' and under/overground. Rather, on the front/right side I think the convexity is more pronounced and seems to come closer to the edge in the middle of the blade, with less convexity towards the heel and tip, and so when the knife goes through food ... there's this sort of 'V' wedging effect ... pushing food away from the middle of the blade to either end, in addition to just away from the blade ... You see it when you thin and your stone rides up much higher around the heel especially when compared to the middle ...


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## XooMG (Jan 8, 2016)




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## Asteger (Jan 8, 2016)

Photos and no words :scratchhead: so profound ... Nice demonstration and, yes, very convex there, definitely


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## Matus (Jan 8, 2016)

The one in my possession looks like the photos above - strong convex.


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## Chuckles (Jan 8, 2016)

Many knives that are described as convex or very convex have most of their convexity on the edge half of the blade face and are noticeably flatter up on the spine third of the blade face. The convex grind on a Kato starts at the spine and as a result is more subtle in appearance. At least that is how I see it. 

Here is a Mizuno Honyaki to compare.


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 8, 2016)

that being said the "left" side of mark's photo (technically that'd be the right side of the bade..?) does display a convexity that I'm able to see. 

I like XooMG post  haha not many words needed there methinks...


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## XooMG (Jan 8, 2016)

Sorry for the rushed pic.


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 8, 2016)

this thread has risen to the level of pornography


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## mark76 (Jan 9, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> this thread has risen to the level of pornography



Nothing wrong with that, I guess, with the number of knife lovers here  .

Thanks gents for your pictures. If anyone has more of them: highly appreciated!


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## Matus (Jan 9, 2016)

I only have a choil shot at the moment, I could take a few more photos that show the bevels if necessary 

Kato next to prototype Sakai Takayuki Siousin (swedish stainless) - I find the difference quite striking - two extremes one could say.


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 9, 2016)

Holy cow - two extremes - you can say that again!


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## mark76 (Jan 10, 2016)

Thanks again, gents. I repeated Roberts "trick" with the ruler. And guess what? My Kato is convex on both sides. It gets more convex towards the middle of the blade. And the right side is a bit more convex than the left side. Choil shots can be deceiving...


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## Benuser (Jan 10, 2016)

I don't understand. XooMG shows a convexed left face, on Mark's figure it's concave.


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## Asteger (Jan 10, 2016)

Benuser said:


> I don't understand. XooMG shows a convexed left face, on Mark's figure it's concave.



Hard to tell in a photo, but at heel the geometry is quite different from mid-blade where it is very convex on the front side. Have a look at my first post above. I don't know what to call it ... the 'V grind' maybe? as when facing the front side it has that sort of shape, pronounced convexity mid-blade which tapers off toward the heel and tip. This has to be the 'secret' to the good performance of such a fat blade. On the front side, food's pushed away from the blade but also away from the middle of the fat spot 'V' towards the heel and tip. I don't remember anyone noticing or explaining this before, maybe because we tend to imagine geometry will be similar along the length of the blade


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## Asteger (Jan 10, 2016)

Asteger said:


> Benuser said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand. XooMG shows a convexed left face, on Mark's figure it's concave.
> ...



... Here, this might help explain it a bit more and dispell some of the Kato 'hoodoo-voodoo'. Sorry for the simple graphics, but it goes something like this:


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## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 10, 2016)

Asteger said:


> ... Here, this might help explain it a bit more and dispell some of the Kato 'hoodoo-voodoo'. Sorry for the simple graphics, but it goes something like this:



This grind is an evolution of what you get when a guy who makes Japanese swords starts making kitchen knives, :wink:


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## XooMG (Jan 10, 2016)

Maybe when I have some time, I'll show mine from heel to tip. Mine is not totally uniform, but it doesn't vary immensely.


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## mark76 (Jan 11, 2016)

I think that's a pretty good explanation of the grind, Asteger. Though to complicate matters the left side is a bit different from the right side (at least on my Kato).


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## F-Flash (Jan 11, 2016)

Kato kikuryu gyuto 240mm











And comparison with toyama gyuto with same handle. Kato weights 277g, toyama 227g.






Kato





Toyama


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Jan 11, 2016)

some more pictures of 180mm Kato (near the heel, mid blade and near the tip):

left side:














right side :














I needed to repair a few big chips on the edge once and had to thin the blade afterwards. While on the stones I immediately noticed much more pronounced convexity on the right side.


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## Benuser (Jan 11, 2016)

Thanks, guys.


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## Asteger (Jan 11, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> This grind is an evolution of what you get when a guy who makes Japanese swords starts making kitchen knives, :wink:



Hi Cris - curious to know more about what you meant by this. Obviously you meant it in a good way, that Kato's well-informed by his sword background. However, does this kind of 'v' grind have a precedent in swordmaking? 

I don't know, but can't imagine it would. I'd be surprised as Kato gyuto/petty seem designed so that stiffer, thicker knives can be made, but with a different sort of geometry & food release dynamic to compensate for the thickness. I can't think of another knifemaker or sword/knife-maker that takes this approach with gyuto/petty and I've also been surprised for a while that it wasn't more openly discussed here. There are loads of knives out there I'm not familiar with, though.

More generally, would be interesting to hear insights on why people imagine Kato went this route. (A few KKF members have visited Kato, though maybe were unable to communicate other than watch.) For example, I wonder if this approach might be harder to grind, considering that others don't seem to do it this way. I think there's also the issue that the geometry might be harder for users to maintain over time, partly also because the geometry's unconventional and less obvious to the user. I've said elsewhere that maintainability is not really discussed often and so seems an under-appreciated characteristic of good knives, if you consider that good ones should function well and require easy maintanence over the years.


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## XooMG (Jan 11, 2016)

(removed to avoid conflict)


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## Asteger (Jan 11, 2016)

XooMG said:


> (removed to avoid conflict)



XooMG, you often post this instead of comments, so not sure why. Discussion here so would be interested in your ideas


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## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 11, 2016)

It will be difficult for me to reply in any depth due to my position in this forum, but I will try.

Yes, it was meant positively. His geometry/grind is absolutely based off of his sword making experience. I only know one other maker who is using similar concepts and education/experience, though he is applying them a bit differently.

It's also not a 'v' grind at all. The curvature in the sides of the blade is called 'niku', and how the blade cuts is absolutely a function of it. Even completely dull that blade will still cut better than many (if not most) sharpened knives. With an edge it's something else entirely. A good maker will often check his blades by cutting food before putting an edge on them for that very reason. If it won't cut cleanly before sharpening (and by 'cleanly' I don't mean drop through a tomato, though with a proper grind on it before sharpening it may actually do that), then the edge is just a band-aid/crutch for an inferior knife.

As for maintainability, you're right in some ways. Thinning should be performed in a different manner than you would on a typical 'v' grind knife as you put it. More of a blending than a true thinning, and starting higher on the blade. Most guys in the kitchen knife world think of everything in terms of flat angles. Sharpening/thinning is strictly a matter of scrubbing away on a stone while holding the spine of the knife at a precise distance from the stone. Thinning this is a bit different, but everything in this world is a compromise. That's one I think is well worth it.

One last thing. If you want to check the grind on a blade, hold it horizontal in a dim room, pointed towards a set of blinds or other horizontal light source. With a sword you can do so like this:






With a kitchen knife, it's likely too thin (yes, even a Kato lol) to do it like that, so you would do it as I explained above:










You can learn the same amount about a sword by doing the same thing. If you tip it up and down in the light, you can see the reflection of the blinds change along the blade, showing you how the grind changes.

Hopefully that helps fill in some blanks.


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## MAS4T0 (Jan 11, 2016)

What you're seeing is "niku" literally "meat" which refers to a cross sectional geometry best described as appleseed shaped. Imagine an appleseed with the pointed side down compared to the diamond like shape you usually see on knives.
This isn't convex bevels, but full face convexity (or rather up to the shinogi). This is vital on swords as it supports the edge on off angle cuts, helping to prevent bending or breaking due to lateral stress (as it allows the blade to be THICK behind the edge without wedging).

Edit: Chris, how would you sharpen a kitchen knife with full niku? Is it a case of "polishing" the blade (as in the case of nihonto) and then adding a (micro)bevel below or is the blade sharpened as one would ordinarily sharpen a kitchen knife.


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## Matus (Jan 11, 2016)

I am wondering whether we do not see here a tendency to 'overthink' the matter at hand (and I mean that only as personal opinion of someone with still rather limited experience and knowledge). It is obvious that the Convex grind of the Kato (and probably some others as well) knives is a complex one - the curvature of the convex grind chances quickly from edge towards the spine. Of course - such a transition only becomes more obvious and observable in actual use with not too thin knives. I would also add that while I find the cutting abilities of the Kato to be good, it is a knife that wedges rather easily, at least in my experience with one. It is the relatively large weight of the knife together with strong front-forward weight distribution that is up to large part responsible for its cutting properties. If the knife was half the weight, I doubt it would be too enjoyable to use.

Just my honest, personal opinion.


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 11, 2016)

I was wondering if someone could help me understand the Kato "v grind"...


I saw Asteger's picture: I was wondering if the picture implies that the knife is ground more thinly at the tip and heel than in the middle?


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## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 11, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> What you're seeing is "niku" literally "meat" which refers to a cross sectional geometry best described as appleseed shaped. Imagine an appleseed with the pointed side down compared to the diamond like shape you usually see on knives.
> This isn't convex bevels, but full face convexity (or rather up to the shinogi). This is vital on swords as it supports the edge on off angle cuts, helping to prevent bending or breaking due to lateral stress (as it allows the blade to be THICK behind the edge without wedging).
> 
> Edit: Chris, how would you sharpen a kitchen knife with full niku? Is it a case of "polishing" the blade (as in the case of nihonto) and then adding a (micro)bevel below or is the blade sharpened as one would ordinarily sharpen a kitchen knife.



Honestly it's easier to just maintain a primary bevel like most knives...so you would sharpen normally. If the maker did his job though, the bevel will be very thin, very durable, and easy to maintain for a very long time just stropping with high grit touch up stones.


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## Asteger (Jan 11, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> I was wondering if someone could help me understand the Kato "v grind"... I saw Asteger's picture: I was wondering if the picture implies that the knife is ground more thinly at the tip and heel than in the middle?



Hi SB,. Please look above as I explained it 2x and there was another thread  My name, for better or worse. Looking straight on at the blade and seeing the contours, I always thought this because of the greater/lower convexity in the middle front. 

Yes, I know some Japanese and 'niku' is 'meat' (CrisA brought this up) - which makes sense if you imagine the 'meat' of the blade. That's the idea though, meat. ... Sorry, great discussion above but where I am time for sleep. Keep it coming


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## cheflivengood (Jan 11, 2016)

Let's get some choil shots of these rulers


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 11, 2016)

cheflivengood said:


> Let's get some choil shots of these rulers


laughed out loud in the doctor's office at that one!


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## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 11, 2016)

cheflivengood said:


> Let's get some choil shots of these rulers



Only some rulers tell you anything about the geometry of the rest of the ruler from the choil shot.

Err...


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## Matus (Jan 11, 2016)

I am appreciating the new twist of this thread


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## mark76 (Jan 11, 2016)

This is utterly serious business, gentlemen.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 11, 2016)

Matus said:


> I am wondering whether we do not see here a tendency to 'overthink' the matter at hand (and I mean that only as personal opinion of someone with still rather limited experience and knowledge). It is obvious that the Convex grind of the Kato (and probably some others as well) knives is a complex one - the curvature of the convex grind chances quickly from edge towards the spine. Of course - such a transition only becomes more obvious and observable in actual use with not too thin knives. I would also add that while I find the cutting abilities of the Kato to be good, it is a knife that wedges rather easily, at least in my experience with one. It is the relatively large weight of the knife together with strong front-forward weight distribution that is up to large part responsible for its cutting properties. If the knife was half the weight, I doubt it would be too enjoyable to use.
> 
> Just my honest, personal opinion.



There is much, much more to this than you're understanding (not a slight in any way! Just an observation), but you're still right in many ways. I agree that the weight and forward balance helps quite a bit with Kato's knives. That's a lot of steel to push through anything more dense than a tomato. But think...to make the knife half the weight, or to decrease forward balance, what would you have to do to it?

Hmm...


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## Matus (Jan 11, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> There is much, much more to this than you're understanding (not a slight in any way! Just an observation), but you're still right in many ways. I agree that the weight and forward balance helps quite a bit with Kato's knives. That's a lot of steel to push through anything more dense than a tomato. But think...to make the knife half the weight, or to decrease forward balance, what would you have to do to it?
> 
> Hmm...



... one could make a hollow blade :angel2: 

But seriously, that proposition of mine (with half the weight) was only a 'Gedankenexperiment', so to speak. I do realise that my opinion is based on less then full knowledge of the subject.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 11, 2016)

Matus said:


> ... one could make a hollow blade :angel2:
> 
> But seriously, that proposition of mine (with half the weight) was only a 'Gedankenexperiment', so to speak. I do realise that my opinion is based on less then full knowledge of the subject.



ForgeCraft did that...and it works .

I understand what you meant...but my point is that in order to decrease weight (or forward balance, you can do them independently to an extent), you must adjust other things as well. I understand that your point was more of an 'if it were made of some crazy aluminum that would hold an edge' type scenario...but your point is what spurred my point. Nothing on these knives works in a vacuum...and the parameters are all known. Weight is a function of mass...forward balance is a function of mass divided...ease of cutting, anti-stiction/wedging etc are all functions of physics. It's just a matter of mixing them until you find the best (for you...that's the one parameter that a maker has no control over) mix of functions. Each maker has their own interpretation of what's going on. Some do testing and development to get there, others copy the work of makers who are established and try to pretend it's a new wheel. Regardless of the how, it's up to the consumer (you) to find the maker whose interpretation works best with your needs. 

Remember my first comment? The Kato is just one point in the evolution of a kitchen knife made by a swordsmith. There's a lot of directions one can go, with that same beginning point being the only established parameter.


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## marc4pt0 (Jan 11, 2016)

Cris, you are always a wealth of knowledge! Thank you for sharing. When my head stops spinning, I'll be back with some questions. 
Great read so far for sure


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## Yamabushi (Jan 12, 2016)

Very interesting thread! I plan on visiting Kato-san next month. His workshop is in Yamanashi-ken, but my wife's family's house is only about 45 minutes away in Nagano-ken. In addition to being a dedicated home cook I'm also an avid practitioner of traditional Japanese martial arts, which is why I moved to Japan 16 years ago, so am interested in both his kitchen knives and swords. If I make it as planned, I'll try to take plenty of photos and perhaps do a little write-up.


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## vl_kolokotronis (Jan 12, 2016)

XooMG said:


> Maybe when I have some time, I'll show mine from heel to tip. Mine is not totally uniform, but it doesn't vary immensely.


The philosophy of the Japanese knife (sword) - the creation of the structure of carbon nanotubes began. What you see, this may be the marks of this technology.:running:

DISCOVERY OF NANOTUBES IN ANCIENT DAMASCUS STEEL
http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/...880__springer_proceedings_in_physics_127_.pdf

NANOWIRES IN ANCIENT DAMASCUS STEEL
http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/3//4170/4170637_kochmann2004.pdf


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## vl_kolokotronis (Jan 12, 2016)

Yamabushi said:


> Very interesting thread! I plan on visiting Kato-san next month. His workshop is in Yamanashi-ken, but my wife's family's house is only about 45 minutes away in Nagano-ken. In addition to being a dedicated home cook I'm also an avid practitioner of traditional Japanese martial arts, which is why I moved to Japan 16 years ago, so am interested in both his kitchen knives and swords. If I make it as planned, I'll try to take plenty of photos and perhaps do a little write-up.



Could you a little to make a video, the Master wears away (polish) knives.


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## MAS4T0 (Jan 12, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> Honestly it's easier to just maintain a primary bevel like most knives...so you would sharpen normally. If the maker did his job though, the bevel will be very thin, very durable, and easy to maintain for a very long time just stropping with high grit touch up stones.



Thanks Chris!

_IF_ you were a knife maker, would you forge kitchen knives more like hira zukuri or shobu zukuri or a more complex asymmetrical grind?

I ask because hira zukuri seems more logical for this application (in my mind), but upon analysing my Suminigashi Mizuno it seems basically shubu zukuri (but with a very high shinogi, which is lost towards the tip as the mune curves down) on the near side and hira on the offside (with more slightly heavier niku). The grind is magic.

It go me thinking which would work best on a symmetrical grind and if a symmetrical grind is always a trade off between food release and wedging when compared to asymmetrical.

I'm sorry for the convoluted phrasing.

For anyone interested in niku, here's an article by Keith Larman who is one of the best American sword polishers:
http://www.bugei.com/niku.html


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## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 12, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> Thanks Chris!
> 
> _IF_ you were a knife maker, would you forge kitchen knives more like hira zukuri or shobu zukuri or a more complex asymmetrical grind?
> 
> ...



I appreciate the care with which you phrased your question my friend!...but, with respect to the forum moderators...I'm not sure how I could safely answer this. They've been very generous with me in this thread (and in general)...and I don't want to overstep any more than I already may have .


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## Chuckles (Jan 12, 2016)

This is interesting but hard for my little chef brain to follow the terminology. For those in a similar situation. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_swords


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## CrisAnderson27 (Jan 12, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> This is interesting but hard for my little chef brain to follow the terminology. For those in a similar situation.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_swords



Sorry lol...it's very easy to get lost reverting to Japanese sword terminology in discussions like this .

Hira - flat of the blade
Mune - spine
Zukuri - basically geometry

Hira zukuri is basically a geometry where the convex runs all the way from edge to spine. Shobu zukuri has a shinogi.

Hope that helps!

Eta - thelse are broad definitions to clarify the terminology as it applies to our discussion lol.


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## MAS4T0 (Jan 12, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> This is interesting but hard for my little chef brain to follow the terminology. For those in a similar situation.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_swords



I'm sorry. It wasn't intentional.

It wasn't until I read that back that I noticed how much Japanese was mixed in. It wasn't intentional, I just don't know the English words (if they even exist)!



CrisAnderson27 said:


> I appreciate the care with which you phrased your question my friend!...but, with respect to the forum moderators...I'm not sure how I could safely answer this. They've been very generous with me in this thread (and in general)...and I don't want to overstep any more than I already may have .



I apologise Chris. Would it be ok for me to contact you through another channel regarding this as I am very curious?


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## Dan P. (Jan 12, 2016)

Asteger said:


> ... Here, this might help explain it a bit more and dispell some of the Kato 'hoodoo-voodoo'. Sorry for the simple graphics, but it goes something like this:



There is avery simple reason why knives exhibit this geometry;
The distal taper on the knives is not straight, by design, which shows up in the grind.
It is likely as simple as that! Indeed it's not uncommon to see this geometry in hand forged knives.
Caveat; I have no first-hand experience of this maker's work, which I'm sure is excellent, and what I have written here is in no way a comment on the quality of the makers knives or process.


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## vl_kolokotronis (Jan 12, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> Thanks Chris!
> 
> _IF_ you were a knife maker, would you forge kitchen knives more like hira zukuri or shobu zukuri or a more complex asymmetrical grind?
> 
> ...



:knife: Blade shape
http://vl-kolokotronis.livejournal.com/4817.html


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## vl_kolokotronis (Jan 12, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> This is interesting but hard for my little chef brain to follow the terminology. For those in a similar situation.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_swords



Encyclopedia of Japanese Swords, Markus Sesko, 2014 (https://books.google.ru/books?id=ew-QBwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=ru#v=onepage&q&f=false)


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## MAS4T0 (Jan 12, 2016)

vl_kolokotronis said:


> :knife: Blade shape
> http://vl-kolokotronis.livejournal.com/4817.html



Thank you.


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## vl_kolokotronis (Feb 16, 2016)

[video]https://youtu.be/TgtFgJR-U_E?t=757[/video]


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## CrisAnderson27 (Feb 17, 2016)

vl_kolokotronis said:


> [video]https://youtu.be/TgtFgJR-U_E?t=757[/video]



LOVE watching a master use a sen. That little tool is both a godsend and the devil incarnate at the same time, lol.


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## Asteger (Feb 18, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> LOVE watching a master use a sen. That little tool is both a godsend and the devil incarnate at the same time, lol.



A sen - is that the name for the scrapping tool used to shape the blade? Quite amazing to see and imagine the skill needed to pull it all off


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## XooMG (Feb 18, 2016)

edit: Self-censored. Sorry.


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## MAS4T0 (Feb 18, 2016)

XooMG said:


> edit: Self-censored. Sorry.



I'm curious what you wrote or were thinking.


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## Asteger (Feb 18, 2016)

XooMG said:


> edit: Self-censored. Sorry.



XMG does this from time to time, I've seen. Probable mis-attempt at a post he's decided to abandon before it's known to the world for eternity. (I do this all the time, esp late at night. Start to write something then realise I don't know what I'm talking about.) 

But _edit: Self-censored. Sorry._ always makes you wonder... Must've been something expletive-laden... He probably hit the roof... Something so controverstial we'd all surely be banned! He has to tell us now :angel2:


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## XooMG (Feb 18, 2016)

It was a poem about a transgender crocodile. Deleted when I realized it wasn't my mom's Facebook page.


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## daveb (Feb 18, 2016)

He/she was species content though? So many crocodiles want to self identify as alligators. (Or is it the other way around?)


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## Marko Tsourkan (Feb 18, 2016)

Kato is a fully convex blade, from spine to the edge. I even measure the degree of convex ))) and can confirm that there aren't many people who grind like that. Just a handful, but they use thinner stock, so the performance of their knives seems to be different. I think Kato can be explained in simple terms - degree of convex + height+ thickness of the blank on the spine (which relates to the weight of the knife) + thickness at 40mm above the edge + thickness at the edge.


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## buttermilk (Feb 18, 2016)

XooMG said:


> It was a poem about a transgender crocodile. Deleted when I realized it wasn't my mom's Facebook page.



This was definitely the hardest I've laughed at my computer today.


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## preizzo (Feb 18, 2016)

How do you sharp a kato so?


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## Asteger (Feb 18, 2016)

XooMG said:


> It was a poem about a transgender crocodile. Deleted when I realized it wasn't my mom's Facebook page.



I knew it!


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## TheDispossessed (Feb 18, 2016)

Ignore all this talk and just sharpen it like any other knife basically.


preizzo said:


> How do you sharp a kato so?


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## preizzo (Feb 18, 2016)

&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;


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## CrisAnderson27 (Feb 18, 2016)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Kato is a fully convex blade, from spine to the edge. I even measure the degree of convex ))) and can confirm that there aren't many people who grind like that. Just a handful, but they use thinner stock, so the performance of their knives seems to be different.



Agreed.

And yes Astegar, the tool is called a 'sen' lol. I've made them out of used up files...and while the form factor is different, the net result is the same. Once you learn how to hold the pitch right so that it doesn't bite or slip...the thing is a dream to remove metal.

Not quite 2x72 level...but still effective :doublethumbsup:.


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## mark76 (Feb 20, 2016)

Thanks a lot, guys, for you extensive contributions to his topic. 

First, about my original question (with the choil shot): my Kato is convex, also right behind the choil. Maybe not much, but it is. I think my original picture either gave the wrong impression in that it is concave or v-grinded (at the right side) or maybe it is convex only directly at the choil. 

For example, F-Flashs Kato pic also seems a bit concave right at the choil  at the left side in this case.

Other photographs made it clear Katos are definitely convex. (Thanks Robert, Chris and Anton).

Let me try to make clear what I dont understand.


How does the amount of convexity vary over the blade? It is clear to me that the convexity gets less towards the tip. I can also measure that on my Kato. But what I dont understand is people saying the knife has a belly where it is more convex. My Kato seems even more convex towards the choil (or is this the belly youre referring to). The knife is also quite a bit thicker there and not just at the spine.

What do you mean exactly with the red line in the picture, Asteger? Do you mean it has a V-grind above the red line and a convex grind below it? (I measured it on my Kato and Im not sure its a V-grind. It could simply be a straight grind.) 
In a pm, Chris also wrote to me he thought Katos where 100% convex, from edge to spine. Marko also wrote that.


Asteger said:


>



If so, what would the purpose be of a V-grind or a straight grind near the spine? Make the knife less thick at the spine?

Thanks again for your answers!


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## CrisAnderson27 (Feb 20, 2016)

I think...that we have a tendency on the forums to over analyze each individual knife. Realize that these blades are hand made, and while there is a general 'grind' target, they are made with the very 'pragmatic' Japanese mindset of 'Does it cut food? Does it hold an edge? Yes? It is a good knife.' Understand also, that is no slight. I had lunch with Murray Carter a few years back, and that is a direct quote from him. I think the Japanese are just much less anal about variances in their product, as the end result is going to perform its task of cutting food one way or the other. If you take five Murray Carter knives and put them side by side, they will all very likely be quite different from each other in the grind. Similarly, you also hear a lot of guys talking about having a 'good' Kato. Again...these aren't negatives so to speak...just the way things are.

I only say this to hopefully dissuade people from looking at each individual knife and trying to deduce the purpose of its specific grind, as I think it is an exercise in futility, lol.


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## Asteger (Feb 20, 2016)

I kind of agree with Cris above. However, I think it's all fine because it keeps a lot of us going. Some people are trained to or will naturally seek clarity and so like their measurements, clear definitions, certainties, etc. Others are more comfortable with grey. 

In another sense, I see this with stones. One thing I like about nats is there's no 'grit' and even if you think you know it, it changes, each is different, and things aren't pinned down. Maybe this doesn't appeal to some and so they never end up with one. Just another example.

With knives I tend not to pay attention to steels and HRC (or is it HCR? whatever) figures, so long as things seem in the right area. I also don't worry too much if the knife is made by a single person or a small number of craftspeople who collaborate. Etc, again. 

I do think it's important to know the general concepts with different knives - single/double-bevels, s-grinds, convex, sanmai, honyaki... etc. Often this sort of knowledge takes care of most needs. Regarding the Kato, they have been discussed a few times recently in 2 or 3 threads, but from what I can tell not quite in the same way going farther back. Anyway, I do think they're bit different and interesting and so am still happy to hear more if anyone else has more thoughts.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Feb 20, 2016)

Asteger said:


> I kind of agree with Cris above. However, I think it's all fine because it keeps a lot of us going. Some people are trained to or will naturally seek clarity and so like their measurements, clear definitions, certainties, etc. Others are more comfortable with grey.
> 
> In another sense, I see this with stones. One thing I like about nats is there's no 'grit' and even if you think you know it, it changes, each is different, and things aren't pinned down. Maybe this doesn't appeal to some and so they never end up with one. Just another example.
> 
> ...



Oh absolutely! I'm not saying not to break them down and look more closely...I'm just saying I see a tendency to say 'Kato does xxxxx', or 'Kato uses xxxxx grind'...based on one knife. After handling 5 or 10, you may be able to get a feel as to what his 'target' grind is...but based off one, or two, or even three? Probably not. Marc Dixon has had something like 92 of them lol, and has narrowed his collection down to just one that he says easily outperforms all of the others. That is sort of my entire point right there.


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## Asteger (Feb 20, 2016)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> Marc Dixon has had something like 92 of them lol, and has narrowed his collection down to just one that he says easily outperforms all of the others.



Oh no, Cris. With this kind of example, you might be giving fresh impetus to the current wave of Shig-o-mania  Surely 1/2 a dozen of one maker's enough? 

Definitely, I do like the idea that blades you or Kato, etc, make always have an individual, intanglible quality - even where this Marc fellow's 1/92 might not be my or your 1/92 if given the chance.


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## mark76 (Feb 20, 2016)

Yeah, maybe we (I  ) are overanalyzing this. Still I find it interesting to see which properties of a knife make it such a good cutter. But thanks a lot guys for the info!


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## Smurfmacaw (Feb 20, 2016)

Asteger said:


> Surely 1/2 a dozen of one maker's enough?



Baker's dozen minimum....


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## mark76 (Mar 1, 2016)

Asteger said:


> .



Asteger, may I ask one more question about this picture? Do you mean that above the red line the Kato is convex and below the red line it has a V-grind? (All approximately, of course.)


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## Asteger (Mar 1, 2016)

If you were to put the blade on a stone above the edge bevel, as though you were looking to thin on the wider bevel above the edge, the red line is roughly where a 'shinogi' would be, if you see what I'm saying, and that's really where the convexity occurs. So the convexity is closer to the edge in the middle part ('shinogi' comes down) and higher up toward the heel and tip. I don't have this particular knife (my old 240 in the photo) anymore, but have a 180 here (same geometry in miniature) and looking at the heel portion, at the choil between the edge and 'shinogi', the bevel looks pretty flat about half of the way up towards the spine, and so the main feature for me really is the convexity occuring along the 'shinogi' I think, closer to the edge in the middle and farther back at the tip and heel. Other knives (and M.Tsourkan said above that this is basically the case in comparison) don't do this and so just tend to be more uniform in the distance from the edge to where the wider bevel ends. (Note: I've been putting 'shinogi' in quotes for lack of a better word. Of course there's no clear ridge-like shinogi line because the blade is contoured there and convex, but you know what I mean and seems people sometimes call it that here.)


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## CrisAnderson27 (Mar 1, 2016)

I believe he's referring to the red line as the effective 'shinogi'. From my understanding he's calling it a 'V' because of the shape it makes when looking at it from the side, not from the shape it would make when looking from the choil. He could call it a 'U' grind as well, or a 'curve' etc. V grind is confusing because that indicates a completely flat grind on a knife, when looking from the choil.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Mar 1, 2016)

Asteger said:


> If you were to put the blade on a stone above the edge bevel, as though you were looking to thin on the wider bevel above the edge, the red line is roughly where a 'shinogi' would be, if you see what I'm saying. So the convexity is closer to the edge in the middle part ('shinogi' comes down) and higher up toward the heel and tip. I don't have this particular knife (my old 240 in the photo) anymore, but have a 180 here (same geometry in miniature) and looking at the heel portion between the edge and 'shinogi' the bevel looks pretty flat, and so the main feature for me really is the convexity occuring along the 'shinogi' I think, closer to the edge in the middle and farther back at the tip and heel. Other knives (and M.Tsourkan said above that this is basically the case in comparison) don't do this and so just tend to be more uniform in the distance from the edge to where the wider bevel fades. (Note: I've been putting 'shinogi' in quotes for lack of a better word. Of course there's no clear shinogi line because the blade is contoured there and convex, but you know what I mean and seems people sometimes call it that here.)



Lol, I posted right with you


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## Asteger (Mar 1, 2016)

Yes, we're an outstanding team!



CrisAnderson27 said:


> ... could call it a 'U' grind as well



Yeah, 'u' works well too and is less angular. But maybe I just like 'v' more (my 2nd initial) :scratchhead: and it looks more cutting. Yes, that red line is like a big wide v or u seen from the side. It's not something seen at the choil.


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## mark76 (Mar 1, 2016)

Thanks, guys! This clarifies it.


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## jacko9 (Mar 5, 2016)

After all of this clarification about geometry, how much does this grind differ between the JNS Workhorse and the thinner knife at other retailers like Tosho?


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## Asteger (Mar 6, 2016)

I think it's Dispossed that has several Kato from various sources, if you could get his attention here


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## chefcomesback (Mar 6, 2016)

I found the pic that explains the geometry of Kato from the reflections , I can't post pics but send emails if anyone interested


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## Asteger (Mar 6, 2016)

Asteger said:


> I think it's Dispossed that has several Kato from various sources, if you could get his attention here



Oops, 'Dispossessed' sorry


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## Furminati (Mar 6, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> After all of this clarification about geometry, how much does this grind differ between the JNS Workhorse and the thinner knife at other retailers like Tosho?



I'd like to know about this too. The jns is taller I don't think


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## TheDispossessed (Mar 6, 2016)

Asteger said:


> Oops, 'Dispossessed' sorry


Ok now I'm only gonna clear this up for guys if someone can guess where my username is from.


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## MAS4T0 (Mar 6, 2016)

TheDispossessed said:


> Ok now I'm only gonna clear this up for guys if someone can guess where my username is from.



The book?


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## Asteger (Mar 6, 2016)

TheDispossessed said:


> Ok now I'm only gonna clear this up for guys if someone can guess where my username is from.



Your original name was stolen, this is the replacement. Or some knife was stolen, or your girlfriend? At any rate, don't deprive us of your Kato knowledge.


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## TheDispossessed (Mar 6, 2016)

The Dispossessed by Ursula K LeGuin is one of my favorite books. 
Also,
From The Silmarillion:
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever. ..."
This is the Doom of Mandos proscribed to the Northern Elves for their Kinslaying in Eldamar.



MAS4T0 said:


> The book?


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## TheDispossessed (Mar 6, 2016)

I currently own for Kato gyutos and have one on the way.....I have a JNS 210 and a 'stock' 210 i will be happy to make some brief comparisons on, but allow me some time I just woke up.


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## jacko9 (Mar 6, 2016)

Yes a comparison of your two 210 Gyuto's would be very interesting.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Mar 6, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> I found the pic that explains the geometry of Kato from the reflections , I can't post pics but send emails if anyone interested



If you physically can't post it brother, send it to me and I will. If you mean you can't withing staying in the site rules...my understanding is that as long as it's not your work, or in comparison to your work etc, you can post pictures as you like.


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## jacko9 (Mar 14, 2016)

I would still like to hear from anybody that now owns or has owned a Kato Workhorse and a Kato non-workhorse if they can explain how much of a difference there are in the two geometry of these knives in how they perform, etc.


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## glestain (Mar 14, 2016)

I would like to hear too if the Damascus finish is the same? Cool it be one is etch and the other is polish?


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## jacko9 (Mar 14, 2016)

glestain said:


> I would like to hear too if the Damascus finish is the same? Cool it be one is etch and the other is polish?



I was thinking about the Kato Workhorse specified by Maksim http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/yoshiaki-fujiwara-240mm-gyuto/

vs 

The Kato supplied by other vendors like Tosho

http://toshoknifearts.com/shop/knives/kato-240mm-gyuto


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 14, 2016)

I'm sure this been covered before, but what it the difference between the standard and work horse? My impression was that it was a higher heel height, different core steel, a less finished polish and some additional kanji. Things are confusing there and he's never really answered my questions.


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## jacko9 (Mar 14, 2016)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I'm sure this been covered before, but what it the difference between the standard and work horse? My impression was that it was a higher heel height, different core steel, a less finished polish and some additional kanji. Things are confusing there and he's never really answered my questions.



I know that much as Maskim has stated that a few times. I was wanting to hear from somebody that has both versions of the knife to see if there is an actual difference in user performance/feedback, etc.


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 15, 2016)

Well, I spent the evening doing a fair bit of veggies with both a 240 workhorse gyuto and a 240 damascus gyuto. Difference was fairly significant. Will post pics and detailed thought over the next couple of days. I need to measure both but first impressions are that the damascus gyuto is significantly thinner and you can definitely tell it. Noticeably less effort to cut anything. Bell peppers, damascus will cut through completely with absolutely no pressure. Workhorse takes some slight pressure. Carrots, damascus cuts with no wedging at all or maybe just a very slight crack on a really thick one, not so much with the workhorse.

The damascus is much more "laser" like while still having a significant heft. I'm definitely not saying the workhorse is a lesser knife, it's just thicker and has less distal taper and you can definitely tell it in the effort required to cut things. Still better than 90% of the knives I've tried but not as sweet as the damascus one. 

Again, sorry for the teaser but I'll get the camera and calipers out and provide some further details over the next couple of days.

cheers

Mike

PS - I have some other non-workhorse Kato's and they are thicker than the damascus but still cut remarkably well.


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## mikedtran (Mar 15, 2016)

Are you implying the non-workhorse Kato's (original) are better cutters than the workhorse? I have a couple originals on order from japan directly so I'm curious how that is.

Also guessing the 240 damascus is a original vs. a workhorse damascus (or is there even such a thing?)

Cannot wait for this detailed comparison =)



Smurfmacaw said:


> Well, I spent the evening doing a fair bit of veggies with both a 240 workhorse gyuto and a 240 damascus gyuto. Difference was fairly significant. Will post pics and detailed thought over the next couple of days. I need to measure both but first impressions are that the damascus gyuto is significantly thinner and you can definitely tell it. Noticeably less effort to cut anything. Bell peppers, damascus will cut through completely with absolutely no pressure. Workhorse takes some slight pressure. Carrots, damascus cuts with no wedging at all or maybe just a very slight crack on a really thick one, not so much with the workhorse.
> 
> The damascus is much more "laser" like while still having a significant heft. I'm definitely not saying the workhorse is a lesser knife, it's just thicker and has less distal taper and you can definitely tell it in the effort required to cut things. Still better than 90% of the knives I've tried but not as sweet as the damascus one.
> 
> ...


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 15, 2016)

Surf,
Your Damascus is the Togo version correct? I think they are specked a little thinner, shorter in length and at the heel although they can all vary somewhat. I have a the Togo Std and its about 230mm, and 46-47 at the heel and almost transparent at the tip. It has the thinnest tip portion of any knive I've owned.


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 15, 2016)

I stand corrected. My std heel height is 50mm and not 46-47mm my bad.


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 19, 2016)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Surf,
> Your Damascus is the Togo version correct? I think they are specked a little thinner, shorter in length and at the heel although they can all vary somewhat. I have a the Togo Std and its about 230mm, and 46-47 at the heel and almost transparent at the tip. It has the thinnest tip portion of any knive I've owned.



Took me a second to think about the Togo reference lol. Yes, you got it in one. To compare with the Workhorse, the thicknesses are:

WH Damascus
Height at heel 50mm 48.5mm
Spine Thickness
Heel 5mm 4.5mm
1/4 blade 3.25mm 3.1mm
1/2 blade 2.85mm 2.5mm
3/4 blade 2.75mm 1.9mm
10mm from tip 1.0mm 0.7mm

Thickness 10mm from edge
heel 1.9mm 1.78mm
1/4 blade 1.7mm 1.68mm
1/2 blade 1.8mm (not a typo) 1.5mm
3/4 blade 1.6mm 1.25mm

Overall, the damascus blade is just a little slimmer. Don't know if a weight is really informational since the handles are so different (stabilized koa, copper and muskox vs burnt chestnut and horn). The workhorse is a great cutter but definitely not a laser and wedges ever so slightly in taller root veg. The damascus cuts like more like a laser. The tip flies through onions and this morning I cut up a bunch of potatoes and the slices just fall off the blade with zero sticking. 

Additional benefit is the damascus is way less reactive than the standard kato cladding. I'll post the obligatory choil shots shortly.


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 19, 2016)

Ok, Damascus choil. Damascus has a rounded choil and better finish.


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 19, 2016)

Workhorse choil.


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 19, 2016)

A shot of the spines side by side. Damascus on the left. The damascus blade is actually 10mm shorter than the workhorse.


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 19, 2016)

and the blades side by side. They cut the same thing, same amount and same care. I wipe often with a damp handy wipe and then wash in warm soapy water and dry thoroughly before putting up. Since they are in the daily rotation I didn't oil them. The workhorse is noticeably more reactive and wants to make an orangish patina.


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## jacko9 (Mar 19, 2016)

Smurf, Thanks for the comparison - it is a great pictorial and informational comparison. Now, If only you could tell me where I can pick up a Damascus 240 Gyuto for a reasonable price ;-)


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 19, 2016)

Smurf,
This is great info. Basically confirmed what my speculations were. My STD 240 is also patina resistant and very hard, almost a Honyaki feel to it. BTW, your knife probably has the nicest Damascus pattern I have ever seen. Nice score!


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 19, 2016)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Smurf,
> This is great info. Basically confirmed what my speculations were. My STD 240 is also patina resistant and very hard, almost a Honyaki feel to it. BTW, your knife probably has the nicest Damascus pattern I have ever seen. Nice score!



I was incredibly happy with the damascus when I opened the package. I just did a quick measure of the blades but I suspect the are convex in two dimensions. The damascus knife, although thinner, seems at least as stiff as the workhorse even though it's thicker. Can't say for sure but it seems that way. Also, the damascus knife was one of the sharpest out of the box Japanese knives I've had. On par with Shigefusa's without the super chippy edge. I wonder if he uses a different cladding for the workhorse's. I've got a 180 standard kato and it seems a little less reactive too. I should have them all back this week so I'll post a family shot next Friday. Two of them still need new furniture though lol.


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 19, 2016)

jacko9 said:


> Smurf, Thanks for the comparison - it is a great pictorial and informational comparison. Now, If only you could tell me where I can pick up a Damascus 240 Gyuto for a reasonable price ;-)



Lol, define reasonable. I'd love to get a couple more with this quality of damascus. Pricey though.


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## jacko9 (Mar 19, 2016)

Smurfmacaw said:


> Lol, define reasonable. I'd love to get a couple more with this quality of damascus. Pricey though.



Actually the prices listed on JNS seem reasonable other vendors however seem to be looking for a premium markup. I agree that knife is one of the best I've seen, quite remarkable.


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 19, 2016)

I'm really interested to see the damascus on the 210 that TJ got in the last frenzy. I'm on the west coast so the email came out while I was still sleeping :curse: The pic in the email is pretty low res but it looks like a nice one. If it cuts anything like the 240 I have he's got a winner.


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## jacko9 (Mar 19, 2016)

Smurfmacaw said:


> I'm really interested to see the damascus on the 210 that TJ got in the last frenzy. I'm on the west coast so the email came out while I was still sleeping :curse: The pic in the email is pretty low res but it looks like a nice one. If it cuts anything like the 240 I have he's got a winner.



I just looked at my Konosuke Fujiyama Blue #2 Gyuto in 210 and even thought I like it for some things, I think I'm going back to the 240mm length. Now, getting a Kato in damascus in either length is going to be problematic since I'm also on the West Coast and I would have to get out of bed during one of my "old man" nature breaks and check my computer instead of going right back to sleep - you young guys will find this out years from now ;-)


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 19, 2016)

Actually he varies the times he sends the emails out. I've been sitting there at 0630 drinking my coffee and seen them come in so it really is just kind of a luck thing.


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## jacko9 (Mar 19, 2016)

Smurfmacaw said:


> Actually he varies the times he sends the emails out. I've been sitting there at 0630 drinking my coffee and seen them come in so it really is just kind of a luck thing.



Yes luck and a readiness to spend the amount these cost. I have actually been looking at the email and they were available but, I was not as informed as I needed to be to pull the trigger so fast and while I mulled it over (30 minutes) they were gone!

Now that I have learned that lesson, I won't hesitate next time.


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## Chicagohawkie (Mar 20, 2016)

Ha ha! If you don't pull the trigger immediately you will miss out. Any hesitation will mean thinking about the next batch for months!


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## mark76 (Mar 20, 2016)

It's weird. I live in the same time zone as Maxim. He usually sends out his mails when I'm at work. I get them on my phone and my phone does "ding". So quite often I'm able to reply just 10 seconds after receiving his mail. But every time I click on the link in the mail, the knives have sold out. Am I doing something wrong? (Since some of you guys still see the knives listed half an hour later.)


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## Smurfmacaw (Mar 20, 2016)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Ha ha! If you don't pull the trigger immediately you will miss out. Any hesitation will mean thinking about the next batch for months!



Exactly, buy first think later. If all else fails you can sell it on BST in about 8 seconds for what you paid for it.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Sep 6, 2018)

I might meet Kato soon, so I will ask him about his grind. Find this thread mildly amusing. ))

I think we sometimes look for things that are not there. Every maker finds a geometry that he is comfortable with working and sticks with it. Some pick fancy geometry - like Shigefusa, that require forging geometry in and then at least partially shaping the blade by hand. It's not because they like to overkill it, it is because that is the most efficient way of doing it - take a look at the transition from the tang to the spine near the handle and also note the thickness of the blade at the heel, and try to do it on a belt grinder.)) Shigefusa clearly prefer S grind (to lighten the blade below the spine - axes and razors are often ground that way too) over other geometries, but with a caveat - it has to be san mai, mild carbon steel clad. That stuff one can shape by hand with a scraper. Can't do this on a fully hardened steel efficiently - hence, you won't see Shigefusa doing it.

Kato knives are thick convex and he is found of this geometry. Each knife I have seen was slightly different, which is not unusual for hand-made knives, but in a nutshell, they all are ground in similar fashion - convex that follows thickness of the spine. There are nuances to Kato geometry, which I won't discuss, but things are not as complicated as seem to appear in the posts. The convex geometry makes Kato knives cut they way they cut, fascinating many in the process.

Mizuno knives are asymmetric convex - I have only seen them ground for right-hand users though I am sure he can grind for left-hand users as well. That's why two sides look different - they are ground differently. Again, there are nuances to Mizuno geometry as well, and it might slightly vary from knife to knife, but overall, all carbon blades I have seen from Mizuno, san mai and honyaki, were asymmetric convex. Stainless I think were symmetric convex, but I don't believe they were made by Mizuno, though they stamped them and marketed them as Mizuno.

Things that are common to all Japanese knives, hand-made knives that is, they are all thinned by hand and sharpened by hand.


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## valgard (Sep 6, 2018)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> I might meet Kato soon, so I will ask him about his grind. Find this thread mildly amusing. ))


I would love to hear what he has to say about it himself.


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## jacko9 (Sep 6, 2018)

Hello Marko, Are you meeting with Hiroshi Kato from Echizen, Japan or Kiyoshi Kato of Yoshiaki Fujiwara who makes the Kato Workhorse sold by JNS? The one purchase I made a few years ago was the Kato Workhorse by Kiyoshi Kato. There is a distinct difference between these two masters.


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## parbaked (Sep 6, 2018)

^ Which knife is this thread about...there's you answer...


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## jacko9 (Sep 6, 2018)

@parbaked - this thread is about the Kato Workhorse from JNS (Kiyoshi Kato). So if Marko was going to be meeting with Kato I was just wondering which master he was going to be meeting with? I was told that Kiyoski Kato was tending to his aging mother lately. I could be wrong so, I just asked who he was meeting with.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Sep 6, 2018)

I am not sure, I think I will meet one of Kato masters. If they are related, I am pretty sure that the process of grinding is the same, if not, then I ask the other Kato how he grinds his knives))


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## Marko Tsourkan (Sep 6, 2018)

If he is the maker of the "workhorse Kato" I will definitely tell him about this threat.. )) I think he will be pretty amused.


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## valgard (Sep 6, 2018)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> I am not sure, I think I will meet one of Kato masters. If they are related, I am pretty sure that the process of grinding is the same, if not, then I ask the other Kato how he grinds his knives))


Where are you meeting him? if it's anywhere but Sanjo Hokuto I think it's very likely not the Kato this thread is about.


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## Legumez (Sep 6, 2018)

valgard said:


> Where are you meeting him? if it's anywhere but Sanjo I think it's very likely not the Kato this thread is about.


Isn't Kiyoshi Kato in Hokuto? That's quite a ways off from Sanjo.


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## JBroida (Sep 6, 2018)

The two kato knifemakers are not related as far as I know... relatively common name in Japan, but the one from takefu does not share much in common with the one being talked about here (good knives nonetheless and a very nice guy)


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## valgard (Sep 6, 2018)

Legumez said:


> Isn't Kiyoshi Kato in Hokuto? That's quite a ways off from Sanjo.


 Upsies, that's correct.


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## Jville (Sep 7, 2018)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> It will be difficult for me to reply in any depth due to my position in this forum, but I will try.
> 
> Yes, it was meant positively. His geometry/grind is absolutely based off of his sword making experience. I only know one other maker who is using similar concepts and education/experience, though he is applying them a bit differently.
> 
> ...


Cool tip on how to see the grind. Thanks Cris


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## Marko Tsourkan (Sep 17, 2018)

Well, I am hereby to report that Kato I met this past weekend was indeed the other Kato, not one discussed here. 

However, I was able to take a good look at the Kato gyuto (one discussed here) and so here are some quick thoughts on geometry. When people look at Kato knives they start with a heel, which is pretty impressively thick. I wonder if people have noticed that from half way onto the tip, Kato knives resemble most Japanese workhorses, that are symmetrically ground? The secret of Kato performance lies in the cross-section. Beautiful grind and forging.


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## Daizone (Apr 17, 2019)

Just wondering for other Kato 240 standard owners what’s the weight of your 240 knife? Assuming it’s stock and not thinned could post the thinned weight too or custom handles could make a large difference too. Do they tend to average around 230g stock and run short? Do the standard tend to have thicker spines compared to the wh and shorter heels too?


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## valgard (Apr 17, 2019)

Kato STD 240. Run short, mostly around 230mmm and almost exactly 50mm at the heel (taking into account 3 of them). Weight varies, the current one I have is 235g, one was almost 250g, the other one was a bit lighter but I don't have a record.

Kato WH (have had 2) both almost 250mm long but the weight difference is a whooping more than 20g with the heavier (older) one at 256g.


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## thebradleycrew (Apr 17, 2019)

I have a 240 WH and 240 STD Blue 2. Mine have differences in weight and length. My 240 WH from JNS is 236 grams, 53mm heel, 245mm blade, 406mm OAL. My 240 STD Blue 2 is 226 grams, 51mm, 233mm, 397mm. Surprisingly, the Blue 2 STD is only 10 grams lighter but 12mm shorter and 2mm less at the heel. I'm still trying to get my hands on a 240 KU and 240 dammy.


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## bahamaroot (Apr 18, 2019)

I have two 240 STDs. One is 230mm x 50mm and 225g. They other other is 235mm x 50mm and 220g.


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## Daizone (Apr 18, 2019)

Thanks for the replies very interesting to see the variance out there.


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## Daizone (Apr 18, 2019)

Measurements of my 240std. 234ish length x 50. 230g on the dot with about 6mm thick coming out of the handle. BNIB so not thinned or modifies at all.

210 WH is 215 x 49. 190g with 5mm at spine out of the handle and about 4mm over the heel. 

I do find the D handle on mine feels significantly larger than my 210WH D handle not sure if that’s just because it’s a 240 vs 210.


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