# Length of "Workhorse" Knife



## toddnmd (Dec 4, 2014)

Does a knife being considered a "workhorse" affect your preference in terms of length? (I'll leave it to people to just answer with whatever they define as a workhorse in mind, since it's not a strictly defined term.) Do you prefer something longer, shorter, or about the same as what you'd normally go with in a thinner knife? 
Or are there times where the type of ingredient has a significant impact on the preference?


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## mhpr262 (Dec 4, 2014)

toddnmd said:


> Or are there times where the type of ingredient has a significant impact on the preference?



I do prefer a 20cm blade for dicing onions over a 240/260/270mm blade. the fine lengthwise vertical slices are a lot easier to do with the tip of a shorter blade. When I have to cut 1kg of onions into fine dice I'd definitly go with a shorter knife, like my JCK Kagayaki Basic.


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## Matus (Dec 4, 2014)

My personal preference for cutting stuff like onions, zucchini, carrots, etc a blade with length about 180 works really well. Knife type something along the lines of Carter knives or a bunka or a gyuto with enough height. For slicing meat or cutting large vegetables (cabbage, pumpkin, etc) a 240mm blade seems enough. The smaller of the knives should definitely be thin, the large around middle (for example Kato 240 I am playing with at the moments feels a bit too thick for hard and large vegetables). One could do both with 210mm knife without all that much of sacrifice, I guess, if space or budget is tight. I personally find a 240 knife too large for some tasks, but I am not a pro user and my cutting technique could use some improvement.


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## King_Matt (Dec 4, 2014)

I think 210mm is a nice rounded length for a gyuto, Id rather get a suji for anything longer.


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## krx927 (Dec 4, 2014)

I am always using my selection of 200-210 Gyutos. I find them perfect for everything, from onion and garlic to other veggies and meat. The only exception is when I am deboning some meat or filleting fish. Then I am using Honesuki (I do not use this knife for anything else!).

But lately I am also thinking about Gyuto in 240. Like Matus wrote 210 is not long enough for things like cabbage and pumpkins. Lately I had quite some issues with cabbage 

But I am reading that majority of pro chefs go for 240 or even longer.


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## WildBoar (Dec 4, 2014)

To me (home cook), workhorse is when I have to plow through 7 lbs of onions, fine dice a big pile of carrots, cut up a bag of russet potatoes, dice a bunch of large tomatoes, etc. -- nothing like the pros here have to do. But for that stuff I usually always go to a gyuto between 225 and 255. I do not have a thicker 'workhorse' gyuto though -- they are all pretty normal thicknesses.


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## Jgillis86 (Dec 4, 2014)

I think workhorse and I think #200 lbs of produce, meats and herbs, and 3-5 hours to process and prepare. I 100% prefer the 240-260 length if its a variety. On the other hand, if I see #50 onions and two no.1 pans of mushrooms and nothing else I go way small, 165-210.


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## panda (Dec 4, 2014)

If it were practical I would use 270 for everything.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 4, 2014)

toddnmd said:


> (I'll leave it to people to just answer with whatever they define as a workhorse in mind, since it's not a strictly defined term.)



workhorse (wûrk&#712;hôrs&#716
n.	Something that performs dependably under heavy or prolonged use.

So, wouldn't edge retention and comfort during extended use be more important than arbitrary length for a workhorse knife?


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 4, 2014)

240mm doing banquet prep. Sometimes 270mm. Like the speed of smaller 240mm blade. Thin behind the edge lighter Japan knives for 90% of prep. Thicker gyuto & cleavers for harder tasks.

Now retired still use a couple cleavers, 240mm Konosuke, 180mm yoshimitsu. Have a 270mm Takeda mostly for watermelons & pizza.


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## daveb (Dec 4, 2014)

1 stalk - 210
1 bunch - 240
1 case - 270


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## cclin (Dec 5, 2014)

for workhorse, weight & edge retention is more important to me. I use it when cutting large quantities of hard stuffs (pumpkin, carrot, pineapple, cartilage...). I use Watanabe pro Gyuto 240(250+ g) & Chinese all purpose cleaver(280+g) as my workhorse kitchen knives.


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## toddnmd (Dec 5, 2014)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> workhorse (wûrk&#712;hôrs&#716
> n.	Something that performs dependably under heavy or prolonged use.
> 
> So, wouldn't edge retention and comfort during extended use be more important than arbitrary length for a workhorse knife?



Thanks to everyone for the input.

PT, I think your definition hits at some of the inherent confusion in the term "workhorse." Some people use it to refer to "heavy" use (for harder/tougher ingredients), while others think of "prolonged" use (large quantities). Or maybe that's just my perception. I'm a home cook, so the scenario of dicing 50 pounds of something is never going to be an issue.

I wanted to leave the question pretty open, but I was trying to make a decision about Katos, since 210s were available yesterday.


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## chinacats (Dec 5, 2014)

toddnmd said:


> Thanks to everyone for the input.
> 
> PT, I think your definition hits at some of the inherent confusion in the term "workhorse." Some people use it to refer to "heavy" use (for harder/tougher ingredients), while others think of "prolonged" use (large quantities). Or maybe that's just my perception. I'm a home cook, so the scenario of dicing 50 pounds of something is never going to be an issue.
> 
> I wanted to leave the question pretty open, but I was trying to make a decision about Katos, since 210s were available yesterday.



So, what was the decision?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 5, 2014)

toddnmd said:


> Thanks to everyone for the input.
> 
> PT, I think your definition hits at some of the inherent confusion in the term "workhorse." Some people use it to refer to "heavy" use (for harder/tougher ingredients), while others think of "prolonged" use (large quantities). Or maybe that's just my perception. I'm a home cook, so the scenario of dicing 50 pounds of something is never going to be an issue.
> 
> I wanted to leave the question pretty open, but I was trying to make a decision about Katos, since 210s were available yesterday.



I've owned a Kato Workhorse (not the variant from CKtG), and although it is a heavy blade with a thick spine, it is a "workhorse" in terms of the definition I cited. Using this terminology to describe a knife like a Western deba or a "lobster splitter" is a misnomer. Unfortunately, many make the mistake of equating spine thickness with the ability to withstand use with harder/tougher product, when nothing could be further from the truth. An comparison of geometry between a Western deba and a "normal" gyuto will show this clearly. Note the greater amount of metal behind the edge of the Western deba. It is this aspect of the geometry that gives it the ability to withstand use with hard product.





The same confusion exists with the term "laser". Originally, it was used to describe a knife that had the ability to "cut like a laser" or just glide through product effortlessly. Now, the knives that had this capability were much thinner behind the edge than knives they were compared to. Since many of these knives also had thin spines and/or were lightweight (the Tadatsuna and Suisin Inox Honyaki were the first knives to be described this way), many made the incorrect assumption that a "laser" had to be a thin knife. Most of us can think of knives that had a thin spine, but cut poorly because they were not thin behind the edge. 

In my estimation, based on actual use, the Kato can be described both as a "workhorse" and a "laser".

Rick


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## Matus (Dec 5, 2014)

You make some good points Rick.


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## chinacats (Dec 5, 2014)

Matus said:


> You make some good points Rick.



+1

PT, what are the two knives pictured?


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## KitchenCommander (Dec 5, 2014)

that western deba is THICK!!

what is the knife beside it? looks to have great geometry.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 5, 2014)

Rick is correct you do not want to cut hard objects with thin edged gyutos or cleavers for obvious reasons. This workhorse discussion comes up quite a bit. JMO workhorse does not mean a heavy blade that can take more abuse. The knife you use the most to go through large quantities of prep. because it cuts so well is to me a workhorse.

Most all prep is softer food fruit, vegetables, meat with out bone. For this thin edged knives rule. I would consider Konosuke Fujiyama Blue as a workhorse. You do not have to baby them quite capable of taking on massive amounts of prep. Just don't cut the hard stuff it is common sense.


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## chinacats (Dec 6, 2014)

So I'm a home cook and this isn't relevant to me, but wouldn't edge retention almost be the single biggest factor for a workhorse if you're a pro?


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 6, 2014)

Edge retention is important, but so are geometry(cutting characteristics), ability to take a very sharp edge, & ease of sharpening. For me that was carbon steel at work. However some of the quality stainless steels have all these traits + stain resistance.


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## chefcomesback (Dec 6, 2014)

Pro chef here , workhorse is a knife for me that I use in busier times of the week or the year , my main criterias are ;
Low maintenance ( you can interpret lack of reactivity or edge retention or both)
cutting performance ( ease of cutting and food release , if I have to keep wiping
food of the blade it doesn't qualify )
Comfort ( most of the workhorse knives are 220-240 gr for 240 gyutos , I want the blade heavy knife and the momentum the do most of the cutting not me pushing the super thin blade and feeling fatigued a shorter knife , so these are my personal preferences , my description of a workhorse is 270 gyuto with a thicker spine but thin behind the edge with a good edge retention


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## Geo87 (Dec 6, 2014)

For me personally weight is so important with a "workhorse" without weight you don't have the same effortless ease of cutting. A good weight with decent height at the heel, thin behind the edge and thick at the spine. Longer gyutos have extra weight and height than shorter. 
A year ago I would have said you have more control and nimbleness with a shorter blade but since trying some 270's out I've changed my mind. For work 270 all the way... For home 240 . Couldn't imagine using a gyuto any smaller than that.


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## CoqaVin (Dec 6, 2014)

270, with a stiffer blade, to get through a lot of prep FAST


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## chefcomesback (Dec 6, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> 270, with a stiffer blade, to get through a lot of prep FAST



+1


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## toddnmd (Dec 6, 2014)

chinacats said:


> So, what was the decision?



Ordered the 210. Looking forward to getting my hands on a Kato. Though after reading the thoughts posted here, not sure if it was the right decision. Sounds like the 210 and 240 may not be the brothers I was thinking they were, but rather distant cousins.


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## SolidSnake03 (Dec 6, 2014)

For me, weight and profile matter quite a bit in this regard. Given that your knife is sufficiently sharp, have the space and proper grip/control/skills I find that a larger and heavier knife makes the cutting seem "easier". By this I mean, My Suisin Inox Western 270mm Gyuto has the sensation of falling through food largely under it's own weight once the cut is actually started compared to say the Kono HD2 I had or the Gesshin Ginga Wa-Petty. That isn't to say the Suisin is the better cutter or anything like that but simply that the significantly greater weight of this knife makes my cutting tasks feel much easier as long as I'm not trying to "over-muscle" the bigger knife to compensate either for poor sharpness or poor technique/grip.

Regarding profile, if it's a gyuto I like something tall enough that I don't feel the need to curl my finger/fingers into a knot just to avoid having them too close to the edge. Not saying this is correct or right just that it's what works for me, this usually means I'm looking at a 240-270mm knife unless it's a Kramer....in that case an 8inch is fine. Actually, the Z Kramer series (Carbon 52100 and Essential) are the only chef's knives I have tried in 8' size and been completely happy with the size, feel and weight. The 10' surprising feel a bit too unwieldy for me. Everything else I have tried (Tojiro, Fujiwara, Kohetsu, Takamura, Kono, Masamoto, MAC, Miyabi etc...) at this length is either too light and whippy or too short for my tastes....


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## ChipB (Dec 10, 2014)

Weight is only part of the equation and needs to be considered alongside all the various aspects that make the knife what it is. All else equal, the idea that weight allows a blade to drop through produce and provide an excellent cutting action is ********. If you are cutting on a wood board, with a knife that gets very thin behind the edge, letting a heavy knife do all the work will result in board stick unless perfectly timed resistance is applied. I do own Katos (W#2 versions not Workhorse) and while the weight of the knives plays a roll, it is the holistic construct of the blade that makes it perform so fantastically. 
That aside, the notion that Katos are "Workhorse" knives is simply crazy. Maybe Maksim knows a thing or two about knife making that Kato doesn't, but from what I've found, Kato's knives are aggressively treated, and while unique performers, should not be applied in the same way one might a Forschner or even a Hiromoto.


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## Timthebeaver (Dec 10, 2014)

Still got that Chip on your shoulder about your Katos i see.

One of the problems with the term "workhorse" is that it is (incorrectly) synonymous with "beater" for the nescient.


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## James (Dec 10, 2014)

ChipB said:


> Weight is only part of the equation and needs to be considered alongside all the various aspects that make the knife what it is. All else equal, the idea that weight allows a blade to drop through produce and provide an excellent cutting action is ********. If you are cutting on a wood board, with a knife that gets very thin behind the edge, letting a heavy knife do all the work will result in board stick unless perfectly timed resistance is applied. I do own Katos (W#2 versions not Workhorse) and while the weight of the knives plays a roll, it is the holistic construct of the blade that makes it perform so fantastically.
> That aside, the notion that Katos are "Workhorse" knives is simply crazy. Maybe Maksim knows a thing or two about knife making that Kato doesn't, but from what I've found, Kato's knives are aggressively treated, and while unique performers, should not be applied in the same way one might a Forschner or even a Hiromoto.



Where have you seen JNS Katos aggressively treated? If it really is the case, I think the problem lies with the change in the terminology of workhorse over the past few years not JNS or Kato. It's come to mean a thicker knife that can stand up to some abuse; iirc, it used to designate a reliable knife with good cutting performance. If it really is the case that people are buying the JNS workhorse knives with the expectation that they would stand up to abuse, perhaps a name change would be appropriate. 

Chip, I remember the thread in which Mark had said something similar (but less provocative) about the difference between the two lines. It was something along the lines of "I trust the smith since he's been doing this for 40 years so I kept his original profile, blade height and grind". I think it's funny, however, that the Kato damascus listed at CKTG more resembles the workhorse than it does CKTG's Kato.

Anyways, congrats on the purchase; let us know how you like it


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## Sporks (Dec 11, 2014)

I like big knives and big cutting boards, so at least 240 for me, but I prefer 270s for most things.


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## toddnmd (Dec 14, 2014)

So far, I am really enjoying this knife (Kato 210 gyuto). It cuts very well, and has been fun to use. I haven't done a lot with it, but so far it's been great. It's not a particularly tall knife, so it does have some heft, and is probably more blade heavy than anything else I have. I can only imagine that the longer and heavier 240 (by ~90g/3.1 ounces, roughly 50%) is that much more powerful. Hopefully I'll get to try that one out some day.
It did very well on the first cut through a gigantic Fuji apple. Sometimes I find that first cut needs more pressure when I'm using my other knives.
The blade on this is about 215mm straight from heel to tip--I'm glad it didn't run small. Looking forward to using it more.


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## maxim (Dec 14, 2014)

> Quote Originally Posted by ChipB View Post
> Weight is only part of the equation and needs to be considered alongside all the various aspects that make the knife what it is. All else equal, the idea that weight allows a blade to drop through produce and provide an excellent cutting action is ********. If you are cutting on a wood board, with a knife that gets very thin behind the edge, letting a heavy knife do all the work will result in board stick unless perfectly timed resistance is applied. I do own Katos (W#2 versions not Workhorse) and while the weight of the knives plays a roll, it is the holistic construct of the blade that makes it perform so fantastically.
> That aside, the notion that Katos are "Workhorse" knives is simply crazy. Maybe Maksim knows a thing or two about knife making that Kato doesn't, but from what I've found, Kato's knives are aggressively treated, and while unique performers, should not be applied in the same way one might a Forschner or even a Hiromoto.





James said:


> Where have you seen JNS Katos aggressively treated? If it really is the case, I think the problem lies with the change in the terminology of workhorse over the past few years not JNS or Kato. It's come to mean a thicker knife that can stand up to some abuse; iirc, it used to designate a reliable knife with good cutting performance. If it really is the case that people are buying the JNS workhorse knives with the expectation that they would stand up to abuse, perhaps a name change would be appropriate.
> 
> Chip, I remember the thread in which Mark had said something similar (but less provocative) about the difference between the two lines. It was something along the lines of "I trust the smith since he's been doing this for 40 years so I kept his original profile, blade height and grind". I think it's funny, however, that the Kato damascus listed at CKTG more resembles the workhorse than it does CKTG's Kato.
> 
> Anyways, congrats on the purchase; let us know how you like it



I did cover it before many times 
I really don't sell that many knives  no Forschners or even Hiromotos, My main is Shigefusa and Kato 
Shigefusa is a buiety and Kato is a workhorse it is a name  I reach my self most for Kato and i don't mind to abuse it compared to Shigefusa, thats what name coming from. 

For the Workhorse line i also explain it before it is not my design, it is simply upgrade i asked for best of the best he could offer with kasumi with more care for detail better heat tread steel etc.. And i pay more for it then his standard lines. !!


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 14, 2014)

James said:


> Where have you seen JNS Katos aggressively treated? If it really is the case, I think the problem lies with the change in the terminology of workhorse over the past few years not JNS or Kato. It's come to mean a thicker knife that can stand up to some abuse; iirc, it used to designate a reliable knife with good cutting performance. If it really is the case that people are buying the JNS workhorse knives with the expectation that they would stand up to abuse, perhaps a name change would be appropriate.



Rather than a name change for Maksim's knives, let's return to using the term "workhorse" as *correctly* defined, and not to mean a "beater".


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## James (Dec 14, 2014)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Rather than a name change for Maksim's knives, let's return to using the term "workhorse" as *correctly* defined, and not to mean a "beater".



no time like the present I guess


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## Chuckles (Dec 14, 2014)

A workhorse for me is 250-260 on the edge. Needs to hold a serviceable edge for a long time. Food release needs to be excellent. Weight distribution needs to naturally lead the cut to a sweet spot of the profile. Has to be comfortable in multiple grips without sharp angles at pressure points.

I recently used a gyuto that is very comfortable under light work loads to dice 25# of pancetta. The knife I was using stood up to the cutting great but I needed to switch knives afterwards because the ferrule was tearing up the callouses on my hand. 

It is like choosing shoes to work on your feet all day on concrete floors.


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## toddnmd (Dec 15, 2014)

Thanks for all the replies. I hope I didn't contribute to the confusion. I do think this discussion at least helped build my understanding, and hopefully it will for others as well.


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