# Best ways to round the spine and ease the choil?



## crlums (Sep 8, 2017)

Im looking to buy some knives that give me the best value. I've read several comments suggesting that buy high quality blades with lesser fit and finish, and then work on them to make improvements by rounding the spine and easing the choil. The Tanaka "light" from K&S currently has caught my eye but I'm not committed a particular knife at this point. 

What are the best ways to do this on my own? Any sanding/grinding I do would have to be done by hand since I dont have access to a workshop. What sort of results can I reasonably expect if I commit some time to making improvements?


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## Silky (Sep 8, 2017)

I usually use a bench vise, some sandpaper, and a cheap diamond file (a few dollars at most) to do most of my rounding. If I just want to ease the spine or choil, I'll clamp the knife with some protective cardboard and sand the knife with a shoe shiner's motion. If I really want it rounded, I'll start with the file to do most of the work and then sand it smooth. You can pretty dramatically improve the fit and finish of a knife with 15-30 minutes of work.


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## KimBronnum (Sep 8, 2017)

I pretty much do it the same way as you, Silky. This works well most of the time. One disclamer though: when rounding around the curve behind the heel of my Toyama suji the file somehow slipped and I made a handfull of chips in the first centimetres of the edge. A damn shame to do on a brand new knife. 
- Kim


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## Benuser (Sep 8, 2017)

I do it on a coarse stone, same motions as with normal sharpening. At a much higher angle, of course.


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## crlums (Sep 8, 2017)

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll definitely give these methods a try once I pick the knife.


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## nevrknow (Sep 9, 2017)

" Shoe shine " method with sandpaper. I'm afraid I do not have the guts/nor skill to put a file near a new blade.


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## K813zra (Sep 9, 2017)

crlums said:


> Im looking to buy some knives that give me the best value. I've read several comments suggesting that buy high quality blades with lesser fit and finish, and then work on them to make improvements by rounding the spine and easing the choil. The Tanaka "light" from K&S currently has caught my eye but I'm not committed a particular knife at this point.
> 
> What are the best ways to do this on my own? Any sanding/grinding I do would have to be done by hand since I dont have access to a workshop. What sort of results can I reasonably expect if I commit some time to making improvements?



Typically I use sandpaper and as others are saying the shoe shine method. If it is really bad I will use a round file and just a few light strokes. You know, those that come with burrs on the choil! Anyway, a few people who recently bought the Light version said that the spine and choil were comfortable out of the box. I assume they are eased and not rounded and for me, as a home cook, that is more than enough. 

James has a hell of a price on his Tanaka knives. A few other vendors just raised their prices this week and they still have stock handles! Anyway, a Tanaka is a hell of a knife in general not just for its price point.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 9, 2017)

Lots of good advise here. Use files, 3m we/dry, and scotchbrite. 
If its a fully hardened monosteel, abrasives only for shaping (stone, diamond, sandpaper).

In general, just use what is most easily available and learn
how to use what you have correctly.

Many ways to de-burr an edge (which is all this is)


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## Silky (Sep 9, 2017)

Benuser said:


> I do it on a coarse stone, same motions as with normal sharpening. At a much higher angle, of course.



I've done this method when I had to round off a lot of tough metal. I took a 300 grit stone and put the knife on the stone like I was sharpening the spine. Started at a 30 degree angle and gradually kept with the sharpening motions until it was 90 degrees to the stone. Then did the other side. Last, I smoothed it over with some fine sandpaper. It's a little dangerous since the edge is in the air, just be careful not to slip.


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## labor of love (Sep 9, 2017)

I'm too lazy to even use the shoe shine method. I just hold the knife in one hand and use a sawing motion with a file. I do shoe shine with sand paper.


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## Benuser (Sep 10, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Many ways to de-burr an edge (which is all this is)



No.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 10, 2017)

Benuser said:


> No.



LOL. You guys must be fun at parties. 

Relieving (chamfering) a 90* unfinished edge is commonly referred to as de-burring.

Here: >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamfer
Here: >http://www.google.com/search?q=deburring+tool
Here: >[video=youtube;0feWN6hIH2w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0feWN6hIH2w[/video]

etc.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamfer#/media/File:PCBChamfer.PNG

This is the transitional phase before rounding. 
Basically smarter method than putting a soft stone or sandpaper directly on a 90* square edge.


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## Benuser (Sep 10, 2017)

Why would one follow an improper or poor usage?


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## dominasia (Sep 10, 2017)

I have a cheapo Chinese Dremel tool from Fasttech with one of the many grinding heads. followed by wet and dry. Gets the job done on cheap knives. I might go for a bit more refinement if i was doing a pricey knife, but it works well enough on CCK cleavers and Thai knives.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 10, 2017)

Benuser said:


> Why would one follow an improper or poor usage?



Is english your first language?


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## malexthekid (Sep 10, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Is english your first language?


Why does that matter... and sorry but chamfering and de-burring are nowhere near similar.

Consider a burr is a technical term, de-burring purely meaning removing the burr.

Chamfering is to removing a corner by "slicing" off the corner to create a bevelled face. Typically done at 45 degrees but can by any angles.

In no way the same.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 10, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Why does that matter... and sorry but chamfering and de-burring are nowhere near similar.



round 2...


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## HRC_64 (Sep 10, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> In no way the same.



Technically incorrect...my favourite kind of incorrect


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## malexthekid (Sep 10, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Technically incorrect...my favourite kind of incorrect


You mean where you are consistently proven wrong?

Feel free to show me how I'm technically incorrect.


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 10, 2017)

You need a vice. You can get the clamp on table kind. Back sandpaper with duck tape & cut into strips. Use shoeshine method.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 10, 2017)

Two guys in a hot-air balloon near Seattle encounter some dense fog and quickly become lost. After several minutes of panic, they find themselves floating next to a large building where they can see a guy in his office, sitting at his desk.

They frantically get his attention, and shout WHERE ARE WE?" 

The officeworker grabs a sheet of paper off his desk, scribbles quickly, and holds up his response: "YOU ARE IN A HOT-AIR BALLOON."

One guy looks at the other and says, I know where we are! Were at Microsoft!

How do you know? says the second guy.

His answer was technically correct, but totally useless..


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## HRC_64 (Sep 10, 2017)

Communicating clearly-- being literally correct, and idiomatically correct, and technically correct-- is usually a good starting point if you're going to be a wise ass. Otherwise you just look like an ass...and none the wiser.


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## ThEoRy (Sep 10, 2017)

Rounding or easing a spine is in no way deburring an edge. 

A burr in relation to our little knife world is defined as:

a rough edge or ridge left on an object (especially of metal) by the action of a tool or machine.

Chamfer is defined as:

in carpentry, cut away (a right-angled edge or corner) to make a symmetrical sloping edge.

And:

a symmetrical sloping surface at an edge or corner.

Deburring is when you remove that excess material that has been pushed over the other side of the edge.

While rounding or chamfering there is no excess material curled over the edge. It's just a 90 degree angle that needs to be chopped down. 

The techniques for solving both scenarios are in no way similar. With deburring you simply pull the blade in an edge trailing motion along a medium like leather or felt until the burr is pulled off the edge and is stripped away.

With rounding/easing I use a Harbour Freight 1 x 30 belt sander with a progression of belts. I'll grind the edges off at a bit lower than a 45 degree angle. Then I work my way from handle to tip, lift up the angle make another pass and continue this way until I make my way up and over the spine through to the other side. When I have enough material removed I move up in grit until I get the polish I desire. Usually a satin finish. This takes less than 5 minutes and usually only takes 2 belts to accomplish.


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## malexthekid (Sep 10, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Communicating clearly-- being literally correct, and idiomatically correct, and technically correct-- is usually a good starting point if you're going to be a wise ass. Otherwise you just look like an ass...and none the wiser.


So far you have been none of them in any of your comments so I fail to see their relevance to this discussion.

And I'm still waiting for you to somehow tell me how I was wrong on your grit discussion let alone this topic.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 11, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> So far you have been none of them in any of your comments so I fail to see their relevance to this discussion.



This is called argument from ignorance. 
As in "I don't understand topic X, therefore I'm an expert."

Its more excusable from Benuser, 
being that he's not a native english speaker.

But given that Australian also isn't a language, 
you might want to be careful here.

Extrapolating from (what may be) a regional dialect 
and smart-mouthing
people over the internet gets old
pretty fast.

And winning fights about the correct use of the 
english language with people who don't speak it
either natively or technically, is both

1) a waste of time; and
2) disrespectful to the OP 

(whose thread ya'll are crapping up).


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## malexthekid (Sep 11, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> This is called argument from ignorance.
> As in "I don't understand topic X, therefore I'm an expert."
> 
> Its more excusable from Benuser,
> ...


Who ever said I don't understand, I merely asked you to prove you assertion that I am incorrect.

In the scientific world, evidence is required to disprove someone, not the other way. Perhaps you should start with what a burr is, technically, and then work back through to chamfering.

I'll just wait here to be "proven" wrong. Since I'm still waiting from the last thread. I'll take a punt that I should check back in in a month or so?

Also what is disrespectful to the OP is spouting misinformation and opinion as fact and then name calling/insinuating other members lack an understanding of language when they are correcting your opinion.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 11, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Who ever said I don't understand



---


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## malexthekid (Sep 11, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> ---


I appreciate your attempts to disparage me through insult but unfortunately I'm used to people with wit and you really are just failing.

So noting that, I'd appreciate some of your superior understanding of the English language to explain your superiority on this, and other topics.

Note: Admins sorry I'm being an a$$ apologies and feel free to delete my posts if they are not seen as appropriate.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 11, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> Rounding or easing a spine is in no way deburring an edge.



Theory, I think you are making a simple mistake here with this formulation. 
A 90* angle on a piece of metal (as on a spine of a knife) is by definition an 'edge' (geometric edge).

[edit:I'm not sure if you've actually read through this thread but this has already been discussed.]

That's not me being dismissive, its just to avoid repetition. 
There are citations and examples if you care to look into it further.

Good examples of very sharp geometric 90* edges are on alpine skis.
Very easily capable of causing grievous bodily harm as well as cutting blue ice.

And yes, they are commonly de-burred (as are many, many other 90* un-finished edges)


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## HRC_64 (Sep 11, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Note: Admins sorry I'm being an a$$ apologies and feel free to delete my posts if they are not seen as appropriate.



Mate you are being an A$$, and I suggest you consult a dictionary before shitting up the thread any more.


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## malexthekid (Sep 11, 2017)

F#ck me why do I bite....

But it seems you fail to grasp that Theory doesn't assert that an 90 degree angle isn't and edge.... he merely asserts that rounding or easing of said edge isn't DEBURRING an edge


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## malexthekid (Sep 11, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Mate you are being an A$$, and I suggest you consult a dictionary before shitting up the thread any more.


Maybe I am, maybe I'm not I'll let the mods, admins and other members let me know about that. 

Like I said, how about you tell me why I am wrong instead of attempting to insult me.


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## ThEoRy (Sep 11, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Theory, I think you are making a simple mistake here with this formulation.
> A 90* angle on a piece of metal (as on a spine of a knife) is by definition an 'edge' (geometric edge).
> 
> I'm not sure if you've actually read through this thread but this has already been discussed.
> ...



I haven't made any mistakes. I know what an edge is. Do you think I'm a ******* simpleton? Any time two surfaces converge they create an edge regardless of angle. 

I'm not sure you've read my earlier post. If so, please return to it so you can absorb the information properly. I couldn't have stated more clearly the definitions of burr vs chamfer and the completely different techniques I've personally employed countless times to address both situations. I don't need your citations and examples. I have decades of sharpening and carpentry experience. 

At this point I've concluded you're either:
A. A troll
B. Enjoy arguing semantics 
C. Purposely obtuse 
Or D. Out of your depth 
Possibly a combination of any of the above. 

You're not convincing anyone of anything in this thread. 
Just take the L bro.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 11, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> I haven't made any mistakes. I know what an edge is. Do you think I'm a ******* simpleton?



Are you seriously gonna get into a pissing match about whether or not a chamfer will remove a burr?


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## HRC_64 (Sep 11, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> But it seems you fail to grasp ... that rounding or easing of said edge isn't DEBURRING an edge



This is actually the textbook definition of "deburring".


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## HRC_64 (Sep 11, 2017)

---


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## malexthekid (Sep 11, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> This is actually the textbook definition of "deburring".


 Funny. I thought the definition of deburr was to "remove a burr" or to "neaten or smooth the rough edges or ridges..."


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## ThEoRy (Sep 11, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Are you seriously gonna get into a pissing match about whether or not a chamfer will remove a burr?



Please quote the part where I said a chamfer will not remove a burr so I can recall where I said that. 

You're really stuck on this "edge of a spine is nothing but a burr" thing. There's more to it than that. A burr is unwanted residual material that has raised up or curled over the edge due to the material being machined with tools. If that spine has that residual material curled over the edge from being machined and you chamfer it only then it has been de-burred. Because there was an actual ******* burr there to begin with. 

But if it's like just about every knife I've handled and it's just a regular spine with hard angles that are sharp against your skin during use so you round/chamfer/ease it in any way, you are not de-burring it, you are rounding/chamfering/easing it. 

L bro. L.


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## mikaelsan (Sep 11, 2017)

I think you might be using your knives wrong man, try turning it the other way


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## StonedEdge (Sep 11, 2017)

mikaelsan said:


> I think you might be using your knives wrong man, try turning it the other way


Ha! Amazing post! I'm with PTiger et al on this one. Sure a chamfered plane could be argued to be technically burr removal. For our intents and purposes with kitchen knives however it's totally different.


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## Razor (Sep 11, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Two guys in a hot-air balloon near Seattle encounter some dense fog and quickly become lost. After several minutes of panic, they find themselves floating next to a large building where they can see a guy in his office, sitting at his desk.
> 
> They frantically get his attention, and shout WHERE ARE WE?"
> 
> ...



Now we're partying.


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## Razor (Sep 11, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> LOL. You guys must be fun at parties.
> 
> Relieving (chamfering) a 90* unfinished edge is commonly referred to as de-burring.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately none of your links support your assertion. But it is a bit of semantics. We all get what you are trying to say, but still, a 90 degree edge is not a burr.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 12, 2017)

> Relieving (chamfering) a 90* unfinished edge is commonly referred to as de-burring.





Razor said:


> Unfortunately none of your links support your assertion.



Google: Deburring and Edge Finishing Handbook (400 pages)
Page: 1

On the use of 45* chamfers on 90 degree unfinished stock:

[From: The basics and benefits of modern deburring]

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/finishing/the-basics-and-benefits-of-modern-deburring



> "Typically, the [tool is set] at an angle from 30 to 60 degrees. Thirty degrees is better for light finishing, while 60-degree serration is more aggressive, often used for stock removal or heavy dross removal from plasma cutting."



Note that "edge finishing" and "deburring" are synonyms in this basic sense 

opp cit: Deburring and Edge Finishing Handbook

again:



> Relieving (chamfering) a 90* unfinished edge is commonly referred to as de-burring.





> de·burr
> d&#275;&#712;b&#601;r/
> verb
> verb: deburr; 3rd person present: deburrs; past tense: deburred; past participle: deburred; gerund or present participle: deburring; verb: debur; 3rd person present: deburs
> ...



Again, "rough" and "unfinished" edges are synonyms.

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/rough

And lastly, the main point: the set of "all burrs" includes many more types of "rough edges" than wire burrs or foil burrs.


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## labor of love (Sep 12, 2017)

crlums said:


> Im looking to buy some knives that give me the best value. I've read several comments suggesting that buy high quality blades with lesser fit and finish, and then work on them to make improvements by rounding the spine and easing the choil. The Tanaka "light" from K&S currently has caught my eye but I'm not committed a particular knife at this point.
> 
> What are the best ways to do this on my own? Any sanding/grinding I do would have to be done by hand since I dont have access to a workshop. What sort of results can I reasonably expect if I commit some time to making improvements?



Sorry man. Hope it works out for you.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 12, 2017)

One other note, just to add to the discussion: 
From a metalworkers perspective, and relavant to this thread, 
there are (5) exposed geomertic edges that require finishing 
on a cook's knife. 

cutting edge x1
spine x2
choil x2

With respect to default techniques, methods, terminology, and the 4x relevant edges are ~trivial metalworking problems.


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## malexthekid (Sep 12, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Google: Deburring and Edge Finishing Handbook (400 pages)
> Page: 1
> 
> On the use of 45* chamfers on 90 degree unfinished stock:
> ...



Sorry but from what I read, and yes I only skimmed but the topic on that link is in no way related to what you are saying.

That link talks about cleaning cut edges of metal (which typical have residual burrs from the methods required for cutting steel). And discuss methods of deburring. Which in some cases discussed also may result in chamfering the cut edge. They are in no way the same thing but as witnesses in those example may occur when attempting to do one or the other.

Also you are referencing very specific technical terminology in metal fabrication that has very specific meaning which does not necessarily translate exactly or even consistently across industry or sub industries.

And yes while I agree that rough and unfinished can be synonyms. 

A 90 degree edge is not by definition rough or unfinished (unless it is in fact a rough or unfinished edge). Hence why you chamfer, or round, a 90 degree edge to remove the edge whereas if said edge was unfinished with a burr present you could deburr it to finish the edge to a clean edge... or I would just chamfer and round it doing both at the same time.


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## malexthekid (Sep 12, 2017)

And funnily enough the article you linked does not mention chamfer once only talking about deburring cut edges (drilled etc) which just seems to reinforce mine, and several other's point.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 12, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> And funnily enough the article you linked does not mention chamfer once only talking about deburring cut edges (drilled etc) which just seems to reinforce mine, and several other's point.



Desperately trying to save face LOL.

If you actually understood what you think you understood, 
you'd understand there is nothing to discuss here.
You're like a two year old.

Clearly without any experience.

I mean, if the edges were "finished" we wouldn't still be working on them? 
If they weren't "rough" we wouldn't be easing them and rounding them?

If we put a 45* angle on an edge, do we need to tell you its a 

A) a chamfer? 
B) deburr?
C) a bevel/microbevel?

Of course, we don't need to explain that all can result simultaneously...
because you already know that? 

Right?


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## HRC_64 (Sep 12, 2017)

It amazes my still that a throwaway comment 
about "there are many ways to de-burr" 

started this thread cancer....

The fact that there exist 400 page books
on the subject is evidence of the obvious.

I guess we all learn something everyday.


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## malexthekid (Sep 12, 2017)

Since you know so much about me, feel free to tell me what my experience is, what my background is... 

Also maybe use proper grammar when attempting to question a person's understanding of English.

And no you don't need to tell me that installing a 45 degree bevel on a formally 90 degree edge is anything because that is a chamfer. That is the definition of a chamfer.

It is not the definition of deburring. Or are you attempting to say that a neatly finished 90 degree edge (which is undesirable on a spine as it creates a sharp edge that digs into hands) is in fact rough and unfinished?


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## malexthekid (Sep 12, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Desperately trying to save face LOL.
> 
> If you actually understood what you think you understood,
> you'd understand there is nothing to discuss here.
> ...


And also just because things occur simultaneously doesn't mean they are the same thing. If I rub my freshly sharpened cutting edge, prior to deburring, on the stone at 90 degrees, I'll take the burr off but you wouldn't call that deburring would you? 

Or being facetious, if I go and place said knife in a forge reheat it, reforge it yada yada yada, I'll be removing the burr but you wouldn't call it deburring would you?


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## Benuser (Sep 13, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Is english your first language?



No, not mime. But yours??


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## HRC_64 (Sep 13, 2017)

Benuser said:


> No, not mime. But yours??



Don't worry mate, english is a funny language. 
Somethings are "literally" true, even when they are not true in every literal sense.

Just as an example? you can never "sharpen" something with a micro-bevel.
That's literally a non-sensical construct.

But people use the term all of the time.
That type of phrase has an Idiomatic meaning, 
that most everyone understands.

eg "sharpen a knife using a microbevel as part of the finishing process" 
is simply turned into the idiomatic contraction
"sharpen...using...a microbevel" (or whatever).

This is the same reason why 
you can land an aeroplane on the tarmac,
even tho the runway is concrete (not tarmac).

The other thing to consider here is that
idiomatic meanings are usually technically correct, up to a point
at which they are sometimes more loosely used.

The machinist's and plain english meaning of de-burr 
including the idiomatic use, roughly translates as "to dull",
as opposed of meaning "to sharpen".

In a similar manner, "raising a burr" implies creating a sharp edge. 
And "removing a burr" idiomatically means removing a "sharp" edge.

This is why the literal definitions of deburr 
are more than adequate to cover the topic here.

But if there was any doubt, understanding their idiomatic usage
hopefully helps understand how these words are used.

t. native english speaker


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## StonedEdge (Sep 13, 2017)

I don't understand this thread..is it an English lesson for us ESL's or some type of sales pitch for champfering equipment?


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## HRC_64 (Sep 13, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> I don't understand this thread..is it an English lesson for us ESL's or some type of sales pitch for champfering equipment?



I think the ESL's were the ones trying to turn this thread in into an english lesson. 
That worked about as well as one would predict.


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## StonedEdge (Sep 13, 2017)

https://youtu.be/zNPc6xBBiLk

Around the 5:50 mark is this deburring or champfering. My popcorn is almost ready


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## HRC_64 (Sep 13, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> https://youtu.be/zNPc6xBBiLk
> 
> Around the 5:50 mark is this deburring or champfering. My popcorn is almost ready



Better double-butter that popcorn. I think that video was discussed in this thread.

>How do you sharpen your microbevel?

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/archive/index.php/t-140.html


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## TB_London (Sep 13, 2017)

The preparation of a cabinet scraper gives a good overview of what most people (except HRC) are describing as a burr
E.g http://woodgears.ca/scraper/

Here a 90 degree edge is created first and then the edge deformed to form a burr.

When you machine steel this same deformation occurs as a side effect meaning you don't have a true 90 degree corner- plastic deformation. Removing this deformed material is deburring, and hence you can deburr back to a 90 angle. If you look at the picture of the burr in the link above, it should help to visualise this. Often it's easier to chamfer and most often deburring is achieved by chamfering. To relate this back to knives and the common usage of a burr on this forum, you can deburr by adding a microbevel, which is chamfering the edge.


This type of argument is a major buzzkill though.


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