# A Bread Thread



## ian (Nov 7, 2020)

I thought it would be nice to have a thread where we can ask technical questions about bread baking, since it seems like there’s a fair amount of expertise on here. It takes too much effort to click in the search bar and find an actual bread forum.

Anyway, not so infrequently I have this problem where the crumb is very uneven, and has much larger holes toward the bottom of the loaf than the top. What’s up with this? Is it a problem with my shaping? This is Hamelman’s Vermont Sourdough, btw. It’s 65% hydration.

I scored this one rather unevenly, so it’s kind of lopsided. Feel free to ignore that.


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## Michi (Nov 7, 2020)

ian said:


> Anyway, not so infrequently I have this problem where the crumb is very uneven, and has much larger holes toward the bottom of the loaf than the top. What’s up with this? Is it a problem with my shaping?


I can think of two reasons:

Temperature a little too high at the bottom.
Too much flour on the bench when shaping, which can cause air bubbles to get trapped when you stitch the bottom of the loaf once it is in the banneton.
It's hard to tell from the photo what's going on with temperature. But it doesn't look like it's way too high, so my money is on the second point.


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## ian (Nov 7, 2020)

Thanks, @Michi.

Hmm, I’m usually baking at 460 while letting the stone preheat for some time (30 min?) beforehand. I’d be willing to believe that a lot of the heat comes through the bottom, since I open the door to spray a few times.

I don’t think I’ve been using a ton of flour, just enough to keep it from sticking, but that’s possible too. I’ll keep an eye on that.

Btw, how much is too much re steam? I usually do the hot half sheet pan at the top of the oven with a cup or so of boiling water trick in addition to spraying the sides of the oven every minute and a half or so for the first six minutes. Think I should forget about the spray and just leave the damn door closed?


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## Michi (Nov 7, 2020)

It's really hard to tell what's happening, and I'm not an expert, either. I had this happen to me once and ended up reducing the temperature a bit, from 250 ºC to 240 ºC for the next bake. That fixed it, but I can't really draw conclusions from one experiment. It may have been something else, for all I know.

For steam, if you want to bake on a stone, sit a skillet in the bottom of the oven and pre-heat it together with the stone. Then, just after you have placed the loaf on the stone, throw a handful of ice cubes into the skillet and leave the door closed. Every time you open the door, you are likely to let out more steam than what you are adding with the spray, and the temperature will drop a fair bit.

I usually bake my bread in a pre-heated dutch oven, using just the moisture in the dough for steam. The first 30 minutes at 240 ºC (or, for darker, more robust breads, 250 ºC) with the lid on, then drop the temp to 220 ºC (or 230 ºC for dark breads) and bake for 20 minutes more without the lid. I pull the loaf when the colour looks right, and I double-check the internal temperature, which should be 97–99 ºC. (It almost always is in that range once the bread looks right.)

If you want to get an extra-crispy crust with tiny crusty bubbles on top, spray a tiny bit of water onto the loaf before putting the lid on.


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## M1k3 (Nov 7, 2020)

I've heard, never actually measured, just opening the oven to check really quick drops the temp 25°F.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 8, 2020)

I'm no expert either! Now that we have that out the way... 

That is not a bad crumb! Don't sweat it. I think it is fairly normal? 

It does not look like you have any obvious signs of poor gluten development or under/over fermentation. If you are adamant about 'rectifying' it... you could try baking without a hot stone? One hypothesis might be that you have a large transfer of heat when you transfer the boule to the hot stone (conduction). This causes a rapid expansion of gas at the heat source (the base) and hence the large bubbles. Meanwhile the other surfaces of the boule heat up more slowly through exposure to the oven air (convection).

I agree that opening the oven often is counter productive. I put a tray in the bottom of the oven and preheat to 250 ºC. When the oven is at temperature I put my boules in there and pour boiling water into the tray. Close the door as quickly as possible! Leave it shut for 20mins. Pull out the water and change the temperature to 200 ºC. Leave for _about_ 20mins. I do the last part by colour... When I am happy I turn the heating elements off but keep the fan on. Open the oven door to let some heat out and check on everything. Then partially close the door and leave a gap of maybe 10cm-20cm at the top. Leave for another 10-15mins to develop a little extra crust crunch.

One of these days I am going to measure how much water evaporates from the tray and only chuck that amount into the oven. That will save a small step...


Other notes:

I have shifted to mixing everything together for the autolyse. That is; flour, water, starter and salt... altogether for a mix, crude shaping into a dough mass and then 30min rest before stretching and folding.
Gentle stretch and folds every 15-30mins. I used to try and keep the interval exact but have gotten more relaxed about it
Bulk rise for maybe 4 hours
Do some amateur shaping. I can sort of do ok on <70% bread... For the past few months I have been doing 70%-80%. The bread turns out fine but the shaping would look slapstick to an external observer.
Into the fridge for 18~24hours... basically whenever baking suits me.... 
Out of the fridge while I am preheating the oven <1hr
Onto a room temperature oven tray when the oven is at temperature
Oven routine as described above...


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## Michi (Nov 8, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> That is not a bad crumb! Don't sweat it.


I should have mentioned that, too, my apologies. It's a fine bread as is and, if you were to put that on my plate, I certainly wouldn't exclaim "what went wrong near the bottom there?"

But then, there is always the quest for perfection. If @ian wants smaller bubbles at the bottom, it's _his_ bread!


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## ian (Nov 8, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Out of the fridge while I am preheating the oven <1hr



I’ve wondered about this. Think it makes a difference? This one was baked straight out of the fridge.


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## Kippington (Nov 8, 2020)

How long did you wait between mixing the dough and knocking it back? This will affect the air pockets.

If the crumb is uneven, maybe you are mixing the dough in the wrong order. Do you use a machine and a hook?

These are just other factors, I'm betting the problem is actually with the pre-heated stone as mentioned above.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2020)

Usually what I am doing is:

Mix (sometimes leaving out the salt till the next step)

Wait 20 min or so

Knead a bit

Bulk ferment a couple hours (folding twice)

Preshape, rest for 15 min, shape

Proof (often overnight in the fridge)

Bake (straight from fridge)


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## Kippington (Nov 8, 2020)

I'd ask for the ingredients and offer to make the same thing with my own processes to see if it works any better, _but..._ I don't have a mixer - I've only ever made breads in professional environments. 

I've never baked dough straight out of the fridge. It's always been brought up to at least room temp. Might help with consistency.
Also, if you add oil, mix it in after the dry ingredients and water (and yeast if you use wet yeast) have already come together into a dough. Otherwise it can cause problems in the initial mix.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2020)

Heh, no worries. This just spares me from you making it perfectly and saying “I dunno what’s wrong with you, dude.” I didn’t use a mixer for this one, actually. Just hand mixed and briefly kneaded instead. 

Yea, I was always a little skeptical of baking straight out of the fridge, but Ken Forkish stresses multiple times in his books that this is just fine and you don’t have to wait, so I started doing that...


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## Kippington (Nov 8, 2020)

Yeah I was careful with the wording, coz I've never tried it out of the fridge. Could be good for all I know, sounds a little iffy though.

If you did it by hand, gimme the recipe, I'll try it too.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2020)




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## rmrf (Nov 8, 2020)

I'm also a home baker so take my advice with a grain of salt....

As some previous posters said, I would try not opening the oven every few minutes to add water. Its probably dropping the oven temperature fairly drastically. For water, I usually add 2/3-3/4 of a wine bottle of hot water (tap is fine). I have a stack of baking trays with some broken pizza stones in it at the bottom of my oven that I pour the hot water into. It generally is gone by 20 minutes so I leave it at that. If I were to do it again, I would by a few feet of heavy stainless steel chain or something. I've also heard volcanic rock works well. If you do end up leaving trays on the bottom of your oven, I highly recommend stacking a few cheap ones... I've burned / corroded / warped until it broke through a few. I used to use ice, but I found a larger quantity of water works just as well and its easier for me.

However, I have doubts that the source of the crumb inhomogeniety is the steam or temperature. I suspect its the exact way you are doing pre-shaping and final shaping. If this problem is sporadic, I would guess that it is not your oven / steam setup because that is pretty constant. 

Another thing to track is how "done" your bulk ferment is. I am also in the north east and I find my bulk ferment time depends highly on weather even if my thermostat reads the same number. I look for $ V_{new} = 1.5*V_{old} $ instead of time now and I've gotten more predictable results.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 8, 2020)

Michi said:


> But then, there is always the quest for perfection. If @ian wants smaller bubbles at the bottom, it's _his_ bread!



Definitely! Just want to be encouraging 





ian said:


> Knead a bit
> 
> Bulk ferment a couple hours (folding twice)
> 
> ...



 hhmmmmm.... I dont think this is your problem _at all_ but my gut feeling is you may benefit from a wee bit more time (i.e. ferment) before the fridge? Indeed the recipe may call for it:



ian said:


> View attachment 102137



Unless I am reading it wrong... I see:

Bulk ferment for 2 hrs
Fold twice 1.25 - 1.66hrs
So that is approximately 3-4 hours of fermentation before the fridge? Although maybe steps 3&4 are supposed to be simultaneous? I follow the 50% dough rise rule of thumb. Currently I 'eyeball' it... I might actually start to measure it (either in a marked container or by setting aside a small piece of dough to observe). Anyway... I don't think this really addresses the question you asked... nor does your crumb look under-fermented! Just an observation.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Definitely! Just want to be encouraging
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In Hamelman, he always means for the folds to happen during bulk ferment. It is a little confusing that he labels it as the step after bulk ferment, though.


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## rmrf (Nov 8, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Definitely! Just want to be encouraging
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree, it probably depends on the temperature of his room. The plastic container I use just happens to have volume measurements which makes things easy.

I find folding during bulk fermentation degasses slightly so I have a chance of overproofing if I fold too late. I usually fold at +30 and +60 minutes and leave 2 hours after that for the dough to double. Bulk fermentation is very temperature (maybe humidity too...) dependent so I think these times are just guidelines. 

I also think baking times are guidelines, but I like my bread almost black on the outside


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## Luftmensch (Nov 8, 2020)

ian said:


> In Hamelman, he always means for the folds to happen during bulk ferment. It is a little confusing that he labels it as the step after bulk ferment, though.



Ahh gotcha. The recipe does also use a higher proportion of starter than I usually do (I think). So the rise should be faster than I am used to! 




rmrf said:


> I agree, it probably depends on the temperature of his room. The plastic container I use just happens to have volume measurements which makes things easy.



So true! Although I checked... and our cities are only about 1 degree apart. 

I should really get one of these containers. I think it would streamline my clean up as well!


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## rmrf (Nov 8, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> I should really get one of these containers. I think it would streamline my clean up as well!


In order of how easy it is to clean, highest easiest:

Dried dough on plastic
Wet dough on metal
Wet dough on plastic
dried dough on metal.
Dried dough on metal might be the third worst thing in the kitchen I had to clean, after the 1/16in thick black burned crap on the bottom of my enameled cast iron pots and jam that I burned to solid black tar. (maybe thats a little of an exaggeration...) I pretty much have to re-hydrate the dough to get it off. Maybe if I used steel wool or something more abrasive.

Dried dough on plastic is trivial to clean. Most of it just flakes off, and then a little hot water and soap and its good as new.

edit: I got a cambro tub from a kitchen supply store. 6 L is enough for 2 kg of flour.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2020)

rmrf said:


> owever, I have doubts that the source of the crumb inhomogeniety is the steam or temperature. I suspect its the exact way you are doing pre-shaping and final shaping.



That’s very possible. I still feel really incompetent at shaping.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2020)

I find dried dough pretty annoying whether it’s on plastic OR metal. Maybe I have the wrong kind of plastic. I’ve started washing my dough containers immediately after emptying them for that reason. Another good tip is to only wash wet dough with COLD water, because hot water makes it into a stringy substance that gets stuck on everything.


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## Bensbites (Nov 8, 2020)

ian said:


> I find dried dough pretty annoying whether it’s on plastic OR metal. I’ve started washing my dough containers immediately after emptying them for that reason. Another good tip is to only wash wet dough with COLD water, because hot water makes it into a stringy substance that gets stuck on everything.


I let dough containers soak in how soapy water. Then scrape the damp mess out with a flexible spatula. The last film can be cleaned with a soapy sponge.


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## rmrf (Nov 8, 2020)

ian said:


> I find dried dough pretty annoying whether it’s on plastic OR metal. Maybe I have the wrong kind of plastic. I’ve started washing my dough containers immediately after emptying them for that reason. Another good tip is to only wash wet dough with COLD water, because hot water makes it into a stringy substance that gets stuck on everything.



I have the exact opposite approach  For metal, I do exactly what you do, but with warm water because I like having warm hands. If you let it dry, it sucks and you have to soak it. Washing plastic for me sucks unless I wait 24-48 hours for it to *completely* dry and flake off. I found this because I used to retard my bulk fermentation in the fridge overnight and the dough on the edge of the container dried out.



ian said:


> That’s very possible. I still feel really incompetent at shaping.


Same. I'm not sure I'll ever feel competent at shaping. I also hate having dry or raw flour in my bread so I avoid using it until the end of the final shape when I know none will end up inside the loaf. One trick that has really helped me recently is to focus on developing gluten. I don't start bulk fermentation until the dough passes the windowpane test, but that's probably a little overboard. After I did that, shaping and manipulating the dough became a lot easier. Thin crust pizza was very hard without enough gluten, for instance. I like to think of fermentation and gluten development as separate things to optimize, despite the fact that many recipes develop gluten as you ferment.

However, I don't know if the windowpane test is applicable at 65% hydration.


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## ian (Nov 8, 2020)

rmrf said:


> Washing plastic for me sucks unless I wait 24-48 hours for it to *completely* dry and flake off.



Ah, I see. That makes sense. I can’t stand having a dirty dough tub around for that long.


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## rickbern (Nov 8, 2020)

About humidity in the oven...

I don't make that kind of bread, I'm more of a focaccia guy, but I don't think spraying water as you put bread in the oven helps that much. I put a cast iron skillet on a rack under the bread filled with water as I'm preheating the oven and then squirt some water in from a squeeze bottle as I'm putting the bread in. I think it keeps more moisture in the environment for a longer time that way.

Bread looks great though, staff of life stuff right there.


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## rmrf (Nov 8, 2020)

ian said:


> Ah, I see. That makes sense. I can’t stand having a dirty dough tub around for that long.


Yep! Its a pick your poison sort of deal. I think of it as, if I do decide to not wash a container with dough on it, it must be plastic.


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## Chuckles (Nov 8, 2020)

If you are baking straight from the fridge that could be an issue. The dough will benefit from tempering before going in the oven. just enough to get a even temp throughout. When it hits the oven and before the spring it is basically proofing. The top part of your dough might be overproofing in the oven before it springs due to the colder temperature of the center of the loaf. Opening the oven in the first part of the bake would exacerbate this issue. I wouldn’t open the oven for at least the first 20 minutes.
Even if you do temper the dough it could be worthwhile to check the temp at the top and in the middle of the bottom to see what your temperature differential in the loaf is prior to loading.


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## 4wa1l (Nov 8, 2020)

Could it be due to the efficient transfer of the heat through the hot metal/stone at the bottom vs hot air at the top? Could it make the gas expand more quickly near the bottom before the bread sets? Complete guess here though. 

Anyway that loaf looks exceptional to me.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 8, 2020)

ian said:


> I still feel really incompetent at shaping.





rmrf said:


> I'm not sure I'll ever feel competent at shaping.



 Haha... great! I feel better being in good company!




rmrf said:


> I also hate having dry or raw flour in my bread so I avoid using it until the end of the final shape when I know none will end up inside the loaf.



Me too! When I started upping the hydration, I started having problems with sticking. In a desperate attempt to stop ruining my boules when I removed them from the bannetons, I started using a lot of flour on their surface. Too much. It does the job... but I don't like the amount I am leaving on the surface. Recently I started stitching the bottom of my boules after transferring them into the banneton. The hypothesis was that I might prevent the sides sticking by developing more tension at the bottom/sides via the stitching. I also expected it would result in flour inclusions in the crust or crumb.... I was surprised to be wrong! I think at higher hydration, the dough has some capacity to absorb fresh flour into the dough with a long retard.

I dropped back down to 70% from 80% because i felt my shaping needed more practice before handling wetter dough. This one** is a recent 70% hydration loaf (50% wholewheat, 25% rye, 25% plain):









You can see how much flour is on the surface. None inside the bread though!

(**I have been using the term 'boule' loosely for the shaped, fermented dough. I have one boule and one batard shaped banneton By stitching the bottom of the batard, I found it held its bottom more strongly and came out more like a rugby ball. Perhaps a flatter bottom is more desirable....).


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## ian (Nov 8, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> Haha... great! I feel better being in good company!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hmm, so you put them in the bannetons upside down? I usually do them right side up so that the bottom can hold together a little better. I feel like it'd spread out slightly more if it was upside down. Probably your shaping's better than mine though.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 9, 2020)

ian said:


> Hmm, so you put them in the bannetons upside down? I



Thats right! Top surface of the boule/batard is on the bottom of the banneton and .... the bottom surface of the boule/batard facing up. I _believe_ (and could be wrong!!) this is the common approach?

It is also how you get those characteristic rings on the top crust if you use a textured banneton. I couldn't get hold of a rattan banneton so I use a couple of plastic ones with an oven towel liner.


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## tcmx3 (Nov 9, 2020)

rmrf said:


> I agree, it probably depends on the temperature of his room. The plastic container I use just happens to have volume measurements which makes things easy.
> 
> I find folding during bulk fermentation degasses slightly so I have a chance of overproofing if I fold too late. I usually fold at +30 and +60 minutes and leave 2 hours after that for the dough to double. Bulk fermentation is very temperature (maybe humidity too...) dependent so I think these times are just guidelines.
> 
> I also think baking times are guidelines, but I like my bread almost black on the outside



Just another home baker here, but I think this post contains a lot of wisdom.

Where I live the weather is just completely nuts sometimes, and we keep the house relatively cool. I have recently been converted to the church of cambro, and I just love them for proofing. Ive more or less completely given up on timing, and just check the volume in the container.

Im a "well done" bread fan as well. Was given some advice years ago by a professional baker when I asked about baguette cooking to REALLY cook them which I have kind of taken to the rest of my bread making.


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## ian (Nov 9, 2020)

Here’s another question: have any of you tried overnight room temp rise sourdoughs, like the Country Blonde/Brown ones from FWSY? I feel like it worked for me a couple times, but for the most part I just ended up with unworkable overproofed dough when I went to shape it.

(After autolyze you mix in the salt and start an overnight bulk ferment at room temp, folding 4 times or so in the first couple hours.)


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## rmrf (Nov 9, 2020)

ian said:


> Here’s another question: have any of you tried overnight room temp rise sourdoughs, like the Country Blonde/Brown ones from FWSY? I feel like it worked for me a couple times, but for the most part I just ended up with unworkable overproofed dough when I went to shape it.
> 
> (After autolyze you mix in the salt and start an overnight bulk ferment at room temp, folding 4 times or so in the first couple hours.)


My bulk fermentation has gone on for over 6 hours to double in volume at room temperature (68 F) and I've refrigerated my dough for a segment of the bulk ferment overnight, but I've never done a fully room temperature bulk ferment for 12-15 hours as in overnight country blonde (FWSY). I think it would just over proof if my room was too warm. 

I'm guessing Forkish is trying to develop more flavor with the long ferment? If thats the objective, I would just cheat, do 2-3 hours (or until the dough gets to 1.25x or 1.5x volume) at room temperature and throw it in the fridge overnight. The next day, shape and let it rest for longer because it started cold. I used to do this all the time. Personally, I never observed an improvement in flavor and I didn't get as good of oven spring in this method, but it sounds safer than an overnight room temperature rise. Its probably different if your kitchen stays cold, 60F?

Its not quite the same, but I do a 12 hour autolyze without levain in my weekly bread. Its probably not useful in a white bread, but I find it softens the whole wheat bran and makes gluten formation a little easier. It also works well with porridge.


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## Macaroni (Nov 9, 2020)

I have done the overnight room temperature rise, but only with cold starter and water. To be more specific.. when doing it this way I would feed the starter (letting it rise and fall), then back in the fridge for day, and then (on the third day) into the dough COLD (straight from the fridge). I also use 65 degree not 85 degree water, and leave it in a cold spot in the house (vs next to the range where its warmer). What this gets you is a longer slower rise, which creates more flavor development. Important to start this later in the day and get a few hours of stretch and folds as well as a couple of shaping’s in before going to sleep.


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## ian (Nov 9, 2020)

Yea, the FWSY recipes call for a 78F temp at the beginning of the bulk ferment. Def not cold. I could certainly see starting it cold just to retard the fermentation a little, but it’s probably going to come up to room temp in a couple hours or so, so idk how much of a difference that really makes. Using underdeveloped starter probably delays things too, though.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 9, 2020)

ian said:


> Here’s another question: have any of you tried overnight room temp rise sourdoughs, like the Country Blonde/Brown ones from FWSY? I feel like it worked for me a couple times, but for the most part I just ended up with unworkable overproofed dough when I went to shape it.



Never tried... How much starter does the recipe call for? I guess you could always use half... a quarter... a tenth of the amount if you thought the fermentation was happening too quickly in your kitchen??


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## ian (Nov 10, 2020)

If made another loaf of the Vermont sourdough today, and it turned out a bit better. I proofed it a bit longer and may have shaped it more gently. However, this time I baked it in a Dutch oven (20 min covered, 20 uncovered). I think the crust is better this time too. Thinner, but nicely crisp and delicious. Probably still need to work on my shaping though.


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## rmrf (Nov 10, 2020)

Looks great! Dutch ovens are hard to beat for round loaves! 

Do you use a knife to score? I use a stainless razor blade, but I just realized that people on this forum probably have knives sharper than that.


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## tcmx3 (Nov 10, 2020)

rmrf said:


> Looks great! Dutch ovens are hard to beat for round loaves!
> 
> Do you use a knife to score? I use a stainless razor blade, but I just realized that people on this forum probably have knives sharper than that.



fwiw the best edge I've ever put on a knife isnt even in the same universe as something like a KAI razor blade. the geometry will just never work out in favor of a knife, and tbh the really good razor blades (KAI, feather) have machine made edges that are extremely consistent (the included picture is a feather under magnification). your choice to use a razor blade is a perfectly fine one.


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## rmrf (Nov 10, 2020)

redisburning said:


> fwiw the best edge I've ever put on a knife isnt even in the same universe as something like a KAI razor blade. the geometry will just never work out in favor of a knife, and tbh the really good razor blades (KAI, feather) have machine made edges that are extremely consistent (the included picture is a feather under magnification). your choice to use a razor blade is a perfectly fine one.


Good to know, thank! I'm glad I didn't start trying to sharpen a knife that could score bread better than my razor blade


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## ian (Nov 10, 2020)

rmrf said:


> Good to know, thank! I'm glad I didn't start trying to sharpen a knife that could score bread better than my razor blade



Yea, I think it’s all about being super thin right behind the edge. Helps if you use the point of the razor blade too, rather than the straight part of the edge.

I score somewhat frequently with a cheap Tojiro bread knife, though, and that works too. I’ve tried with other knives, but it doesn’t work as well.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 11, 2020)

ian said:


> made another loaf of the Vermont sourdough today,



Nice! 

The crumb is more even!


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## Chuckles (Nov 11, 2020)

That loaf looks really great.


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## AT5760 (Nov 11, 2020)

In the words of a somewhat infamous, occasional forum member - "I will buy this."


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## Bensbites (Nov 11, 2020)

ian said:


> Here’s another question: have any of you tried overnight room temp rise sourdoughs, like the Country Blonde/Brown ones from FWSY? I feel like it worked for me a couple times, but for the most part I just ended up with unworkable overproofed dough when I went to shape it.
> 
> (After autolyze you mix in the salt and start an overnight bulk ferment at room temp, folding 4 times or so in the first couple hours.)




I am trying this today. I had a problem recently where my starter was in a state where it would rise but the gluten would be destroyed. This sounds like that situation. It took another week of feeding 100 whole wheat flour feedings to strengthen/ the starter to up the activity more and solve my issues. It almost sounds like your starter is having similar issues. 

I will start this dough today and report back. I tend to use cold filtered water.


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## ian (Nov 11, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> I am trying this today. I had a problem recently where my starter was in a state where it would rise but the gluten would be destroyed. This sounds like that situation. It took another week of feeding 100 whole wheat flour feedings to strengthen/ the starter to up the activity more and solve my issues. It almost sounds like your starter is having similar issues.
> 
> I will start this dough today and report back. I tend to use cold filtered water.



Hmmm. I didn't think of it being a problem with the starter. I'm kind of confused about starter, actually. What aspects of a starter's state matter except # of live yeast cells? It's strange to me that there would be a situation where the starter would function in a different manner (not just slower or faster) when added to the rest of the dough.


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## Bensbites (Nov 11, 2020)

ian said:


> Hmmm. I didn't think of it being a problem with the starter. I'm kind of confused about starter, actually. What aspects of a starter's state matter except # of live yeast cells? It's strange to me that there would be a situation where the starter would function in a different manner (not just slower or faster) when added to the rest of the dough.



There is more than my feeble brain can explain. Starter is a mix of yeast and bacteria. The bacteria break down come wheat parts that the yeast can then eat... if I remember correctly... the bacteria definitely play a role in flavor, as does the yeast/bacteria balance.


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## ian (Nov 11, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> There is more than my feeble brain can explain. Starter is a mix of yeast and bacteria. The bacteria break down come wheat parts that the yeast can then eat... if I remember correctly... the bacteria definitely play a role in flavor, as does the yeast/bacteria balance.



Sounds like some bedtime reading is in order. After last week, I’ve fallen into this habit of just checking my phone every 5 minutes throughout the day for news updates and memes, so it’ll be good to get to a place where I can do some more meaningful reading about something, e.g. yeast or Larrin’s book.


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## Bensbites (Nov 11, 2020)

Larson’s book is good.


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## rmrf (Nov 11, 2020)

ian said:


> Hmmm. I didn't think of it being a problem with the starter. I'm kind of confused about starter, actually. What aspects of a starter's state matter except # of live yeast cells? It's strange to me that there would be a situation where the starter would function in a different manner (not just slower or faster) when added to the rest of the dough.





Bensbites said:


> There is more than my feeble brain can explain. Starter is a mix of yeast and bacteria. The bacteria break down come wheat parts that the yeast can then eat... if I remember correctly... the bacteria definitely play a role in flavor, as does the yeast/bacteria balance.



I've heard that different sourdough starters can impart different flavors. I've never observed this. I subscribe to the "bacteria/yeast are in the flour and only need a wet environment with the right pH to grow" instead of the "bacteria/yeast are in the air" theory. The difference is that I believe that the micro-organism composition of your sourdough starter is highly dependent on what you feed your starter. I feed my starter with a mix of flours that I want to get rid of and that are roughly what I use in my bread (rye, spelt, whole wheat, white, oats). I use a pure rye levain for flavor.

Regarding gluten, you don't need a levaining agent to develop gluten. If you food-process flour + water, you can develop gluten. It is also true that over-proofed dough in bulk fermentation appears to have risen well but there is not enough gluten structure left. I don't know if there are strains of bacteria that consumes gluten as opposed to sugar or wheat bran or whatever sourdough usually consumes. I would blame it more on over-proofing. That said, I would naively expect a sourdough starter to consume more gluten than commercial yeast as commercial yeast is closer to mono-culture and I think yeast preferentially consumes sugar.

I don't have a good book or reference for any of this. I would recommend Modernist Bread, but that's like recommending an encyclopedia. Also, its behind a paywall. For other studies, you could try food science journals. I found Thiele et al 2004, where the authors measure gluten for dough with acid, with various types of sourdough bacteria, and a control. They find that gluten develops more in an acidic environments and with sourdough bacteria, but the difference between sourdough bacterias are small and the difference between bacteria and acid is small. This suggests that the acidic environment plays a more major role than the strain of sourdough bacteria. However, in Clarke et al 2004, it seems like gluten deteriorates in the presence of acid or bacteria. The difference here probably is that Thiele does some biology measurement of the protein gluten while Clarke measures viscosity and some sort of elasticity.

I also should point out that the time scale in these studies are different than what most of us (measurements every 6 hours for 24 hours). Clarke says that after 24 hours, most of your viscosity and elasticity is gone no matter what you do. That surprises me, as I do a 12 hour autolyze and haven't observed reduced viscosity.


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## LostHighway (Nov 11, 2020)

ian said:


> Here’s another question: have any of you tried overnight room temp rise sourdoughs, like the Country Blonde/Brown ones from FWSY? I feel like it worked for me a couple times, but for the most part I just ended up with unworkable overproofed dough when I went to shape it.
> 
> (After autolyze you mix in the salt and start an overnight bulk ferment at room temp, folding 4 times or so in the first couple hours.)



I was baking bread more regularly when we lived in Maine. The drafty old Maine farmhouse had along list of negatives but the basements (mysteriously there were two separate basements, the product of New England farmhouses tending to grow by accretion over time) offered a range of temperatures over the seasons. The "warm" basement, which was unheated but contained the furnace, would get down into the mid 50s F/13 - 14C in the dead of winter and I did successfully do overnight ferments there. It was also my beer fermenting space, most top fermenting yeasts prefer ambient temps in the 60s but tolerate the upper 50s. From both bread making and beer brewing I learned that different fermentation temps significantly affect flavor, all other variable save time remaining constant.

You might find interesting the research into microbial communities in coolship/koelschip beers, example here. This data set is from the Allagash Brewing Company in Portland, Maine. There may be similar data from the Belgian breweries along the Zenne/Senne but I don't have a link.

Since it hasn't been mentioned here, to my knowledge, I refer you to The Fresh Loaf which is sort of the KKF of home bread making. Sourdough is also worth a look.


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## Bensbites (Nov 18, 2020)

If anyone wants, here is my tweaked SD recipe.


1)Feed started every night. Approximately 1:1:1 starter:water:flour. 

2) mix a spoonful of starter with water (100 g) and flour (100 g). I like whole wheat flour here, but any will work. Let this sit overnight. 

3) next morning add water (300 g) and salt (10-12 g) mix this well. Add flour (400 g). Mix this until all there is no loose flour. You can have dough coated with flour, or mix it further if you like. This is the bulk rise

4) option: stretch and fold every 30 min for 2-3 hrs. I rarely do this, but some people swear by it. 

5) let the bulk rise go until the dough is 1.5-2x in size. 

6) shape. 

7) refrigerate proofed dough for 12-72 hrs. About 48 seems ideal.


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## ian (Nov 30, 2020)

Fyi I made a couple loaves of the overnight room temp proofed breads from FWSY. I think my failures before were because it was too hot inside my house at night during the summer. These turned out great! Amazing flavor.


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## 4wa1l (Nov 30, 2020)

ian said:


> Fyi I made a couple loaves of the overnight room temp proofed breads from FWSY. I think my failures before were because it was too hot inside my house at night during the summer. These turned out great! Amazing flavor.
> 
> View attachment 104817


That looks great! What percentage of levain do you use to let it rise so long?


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## ian (Nov 30, 2020)

12%. Used cooler water than the recipe called for though. Like cool tap temp rather than 90F.

It does rise a lot. Probably almost triples in size. But it’s not overproofed!


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## Dc2123 (Dec 13, 2020)

Anyone have any good bao bun recipes?


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## 4wa1l (Jun 30, 2021)

@ian This thread and @Michi 's efforts in the what's cooking thread inspired me to make another starter and jump back on the sourdough train.

My first loaf was ok. I used a mix of flours ending up with about 40% wholewheat flour. A few mistakes and came out a bit dense but tastes good enough. 

I do have one question. I've always baked boules using a Le Creuset or lodge combo cooker but am eventually interested in making other shapes as well as trying some big miche style loaves. Is it possible to get enough steam in a fan forced oven in which the fan can't be switched off?


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## Michi (Jun 30, 2021)

This looks like pretty bloody nice bread to me! 

I bake my bread in a 7.25 qt Le Creuset dutch oven. That's big enough for even a quite large (28 cm) batard. All of the oven spring happens in the first 30 minutes while the lid is still on the pot, so whether there is a fan running or not won't make any difference.

Once you have the lid off, how much longer the loaf stays in the oven depends largely on browning. If you find that the loaf browns too quickly with your fan running before you reach core temperature (about 98 ºC/ 208 ºF), just drop the oven temperature a bit more next time during the final browning stage.

If you want batards even larger than what will fit into your dutch oven, I'd consider a Challenger bread pan. By all accounts, it works really well. Only down-side with this is that it is a single-purpose utensil that isn't much good for anything other than baking bread. A more versatile option would be to get a large oval dutch oven, or an extra-large round one. (Or just bake bread to the size of the dutch oven you already have and save yourself a lot of money  )


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## Mlan (Jun 30, 2021)

My favorite Ratio
400g KAB
100G Spelt
400g Water (80% hydration)
12.5g salt
75g Rye starter


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## ian (Jun 30, 2021)

Gotta start baking again. My starter has been languishing in the fridge since before we moved a month ago….


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## 4wa1l (Jun 30, 2021)

Ah sorry I should've clarified a bit. I was thinking of using a baking steel and something to hold water underneath (all of which I have already). So no dutch oven setup. 

What size or dough weight batard can you manage in your Le Creuset? Also which size banneton?

I have the same 7.25qt size Le Creuset but I have damaged the enamel on a smaller one in the past baking bread and am not keen to repeat that on such a nice pot. Still good to visualise so I can get an idea of the dough size. 

I've seen the Challenger and also the Brisbane Sourdough Pan but you're right that they are expensive for a single purpose item. I think that both are still too small for the big miche boules I would love to try one day


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## Michi (Jun 30, 2021)

ian said:


> Gotta start baking again. My starter has been languishing in the fridge since before we moved a month ago….


Make sure to at least feed it!


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## 4wa1l (Jun 30, 2021)

ian said:


> Gotta start baking again. My starter has been languishing in the fridge since before we moved a month ago….



I left my old one in the fridge for too long and it got mouldy. At least give it a feed or two : ) Such a pain getting a new one going again and while it works ok, mine doesn't yet have the activity of my old well established starter.


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## Michi (Jun 30, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> What size or dough weight batard can you manage in your Le Creuset? Also which size banneton?


I use a 28 cm banneton, and the Le Creuset is about 30 cm interior diameter, I think. Basically, that batard just fits into the pot. Dough weight is a fraction under 1200 g before baking.


4wa1l said:


> I think that both are still too small for the big miche boules I would love to try one day


Maybe you just think they are that large? It can be difficult to judge scale from a photo. This one was made using this recipe for sourdough rye beer bread.


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## Michi (Jun 30, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> I left my old one in the fridge for too long and it got mouldy. At least give it a feed or two : ) Such a pain getting a new one going again and while it works ok, mine doesn't yet have the activity of my old well established starter.


Feed it once a day for a few days. By weight, 1 part old starter, 1 part flour, 1 part water. It'll spring back to life again in no time.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 1, 2021)

ian said:


> Gotta start baking again. My starter has been languishing in the fridge since before we moved a month ago….



Hows that workshop going?  



4wa1l said:


> I left my old one in the fridge for too long and it got mouldy. At least give it a feed or two : ) Such a pain getting a new one going again and while it works ok, mine doesn't yet have the activity of my old well established starter.



Starter is pretty hard to kill. You can safely abuse the stuff with neglect. I have given mine CPR several times. Wanna know how bad it can get? Here is one for the Aussies**:



International folk; let @Michi or @4wa1l know if you need a translation. Caveat emptor... What you put in your stomach is your own responsibility!!

Everytime mine has gone crook, I do similarly to @Michi - rigorous feeding cycle for a week (twice a day if I can be bothered). Give the yeast and lactobacillus a chance to outcompete any nasties and get back in fighting form...

** It was the last video he ever posted. I dont know why?


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## ian (Jul 1, 2021)

I think I’ve left this one in the fridge for three months with no feedings before. Been too overwhelmed to bother this time. But yea, I guess I’ll feed it now while I’m thinking of it.

The workshop is in the “buying materials for a table and sink” phase… hopefully I can get the sharpening station set up before too long. Had a couple long time sharpening clients ask me to do their knives and I couldn’t refuse, so I ended up doing them on my knees in the basement. (Yes, @M1k3, I know.)


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## Michi (Jul 1, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> ** It was the last video he ever posted. I dont know why?


Probably got bored with watching his rotten starter come back to life…

The best thing about this video is the sound of the bell birds in the background 

I’ve never allowed my starter to deteriorate to this extent. But it’s good to see that, if I lapse for a few months, it’ll be fine. I sure wouldn’t be squeamish about it. I bake with drain cleaner, remember?


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## Luftmensch (Jul 1, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> I do have one question. I've always baked boules using a Le Creuset or lodge combo cooker but am eventually interested in making other shapes as well as trying some big miche style loaves. Is it possible to get enough steam in a fan forced oven in which the fan can't be switched off?



I've gotten a bit rusty... I should get flour under my fingernails again!

In our rental we have a mediocre oven. While I can turn the fan off, it leaks heat and vapour like a sieve! I did start by making my bread in a dutch oven. But I have found that a large baking dish of water works just fine. I have tended towards higher hydration recipes which also helps with oven spring.

Before I preheat the oven, I put a metal baking tray (actually a Gastronorm) on the bottom level. I also stuff the top level with all the cast iron I can fit in - the idea is to give the oven a large thermal mass so the temperature is stable and does not dip too much when I reopen the door. When the oven is at temperature and the boules/batards are ready to go, quickly whisk them into the oven. Then pour some boiling water on the metal baking tray. At preheating temps it should hiss and boil off a whole lot of steam into the oven cavity. Whether you do this with one door openings or two... try to minimise the amount of time the door is open!

It would be nice to experiment with what volume of water to put in the baking tray so that it completely evaporates by about 20mins. Currently at the 20min mark I remove the tray so that the oven can start to dry out. I suppose that act also evacuates steam from the oven. 

A final possible tip... at the end of the baking cycle, instead of taking the loafs out, leave them in the oven with the fan on and the elements off. Crack open the door a few centimetres so that the oven is forcing hot air out into the kitchen. This can help develop a crusty exterior. Just make sure you have managed the temperatures right so you don't overshoot your prefered crust colour!


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## Luftmensch (Jul 1, 2021)

Michi said:


> The best thing about this video is the sound of the bell birds in the background



Bellbirds! Beautiful. 

We dont have dem roun these parts  Have to drive a fair bit before they have a viable habitat again. In a few bushy pockets we are lucky to have the Eastern Whipbird. Not quite the same... but a similarly high whistle. I suppose we'll have to make do with all the boring cockatoos, kookaburras, lorikeets, magpies, currawongs, butcherbirds... the sounds space is so dull . Actually I shouldnt joke... the metropolitan areas in Oz have been disastrous for some birds. I never see finches/wrens in the urban areas anymore.




Michi said:


> I’ve never allowed my starter to deteriorate to this extent. But it’s good to see that, if I lapse for a few months, it’ll be fine. I sure wouldn’t be squeamish about it. I bake with drain cleaner, remember?



But thats the genius of it!! The drain cleaner keeps the nasties away!

I confess: I am in the same boat as @ian. I haven't baked for about three months.... though I did start reviving my starter last Sunday. It is pretty good now - almost ready to go. It had a pretty gnarly dried out cap on the surface and some small spots of either mould or severely oxidised dough at the edges. Like the video, I just scraped away all the bad stuff and used a small amount of clean looking starter to inoculate some fresh starter dough.


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## 4wa1l (Jul 1, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Hows that workshop going?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow! Mine wasn't that bad but it got quite mouldy so I got rid of it. This was over a year ago so long gone now. Thinking about it now if I had fed it several 5:5:1 (flour:water:starter) feedings then there would probably be very little of the original mix and the concentration of any nasty compounds would be so low. I guess like you say the new yeast and lactobacillus should hopefully outcompete any remaining nasties too. Oh well : /



Luftmensch said:


> I've gotten a bit rusty... I should get flour under my fingernails again!
> 
> In our rental we have a mediocre oven. While I can turn the fan off, it leaks heat and vapour like a sieve! I did start by making my bread in a dutch oven. But I have found that a large baking dish of water works just fine. I have tended towards higher hydration recipes which also helps with oven spring.
> 
> ...



I've tried using a very similar setup before for pan loaves and they spring ok but they always seem to come out slightly too dense. Maybe if I can somehow block the fan it might help? The oven does seem to remain pretty steamy when I have a tray of water in there but hard to know for sure.

I've also seen people covering their loaf with a bowl or deep roasting tray. If I can find a big enough bowl I should be able to make some pretty big loaves that way. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them but I would like to create my own version of the Sonoma Miche loaf. I think I've read in the past that it's around 2kg of dough. They're awesome and last for days. Screenshot from instagram.


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## Mlan (Jul 1, 2021)

A loaf that I baked today
Same ratios as last time


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## ian (Jul 2, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> Thinking about it now if I had fed it several 5:5:1 (flour:water:starter) feedings



I find that a lot of the time now I just upend my jar of starter over the garbage until it doesn’t drip anymore, then add 100g each of flour/water. I don’t feed very frequently, though. I’m kinda lazy, so I mostly keep it in the fridge and just feed it once or something before I use it.


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## ian (Jul 2, 2021)

Starter revived. Time for pizza and bagels.


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## Michi (Jul 2, 2021)

I found that it pays to feed a starter well for a day or two before using it. The few times I had lacklustre results with my breads, it was always because the starter wasn't active enough.

If I want bake on Sunday, I usually feed it on Friday night and again on Saturday night. Then another feed on Sunday morning, to bring up the total amount to starter to the amount I need for the recipe, plus some to keep. Then, about three or four hours later, that starter really rocks.

For maintenance, I keep it in the fridge and feed it once a week.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 10, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> I'm not sure if you're familiar with them but I would like to create my own version of the Sonoma Miche loaf.



Hey man! Sure. Sonoma is our favourite 

We get the soybean & linseed sourdough as our general purpose bread for the week:







Good to know there is a Sonoma in Braddon!


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## Luftmensch (Jul 10, 2021)

ian said:


> Starter revived.



Similarly!

From meh to ok:






I kept the original jar (left) in case the new starter (right) didnt bounce back... Having another look at the original jar, I dont think there was mould. It looks like it was just very oxidised, gnarly starter:






You can see that the starter below the oxidised cap (not pictured, thrown away) doesnt look too bad!


(Antipodeans: how active is your starter? The winter is making mine sluggish - to be expected. @4wa1l, @Michi how long does your starter take to double in size? Mine is maybe taking 6 hours in the kitchen? I can speed it up by incubating it in the microwave with a hot jug of water.)


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## Michi (Jul 10, 2021)

4-6 hours sounds about right, depending on temperature. A lot quicker in summer, of course.


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## 4wa1l (Jul 10, 2021)

I've been maintaining a small starter and it's definitely a bit slower right now. 7g of starter with 15g each of flour and water. I'd say the peak is about 6-8 hours at ~18°C. I've been feeding it morning and night to try and get some good activity going.


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## Michi (Jul 10, 2021)

I found that making bread (and baking in general) is a lot harder in winter than in summer. It's dry and cold here in winter, neither of which are conducive to the dough.

I've heard of many tales of bakers adjusting recipes and fermentation times to account for the weather. Similarly, of sushi chefs who do the same, and also take into account the weather during the year the rice was grown and harvested. A lot of the sklll of a chef is being able to produce the same dish, repeatedly and reliably, despite the inevitable variation in availability and quality of ingredients.

I do some baking and, generally, I'm very happy with the results. But I quietly suspect that much of that success isn't due to my skill, but due to all the science and engineering that go into producing flour at the same protein content and texture year after year, even if this year's harvest was a complete disaster…

I meekly stand on the shoulders of giants.


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## cawilson6072 (Jul 10, 2021)

These are about what our standard weekly boules come out like. I feel like I have some more work to do on gluten structure and crust for the adults, but these work nicely for the kids lunch sandwiches. Simple enough: 75% hydration with a locally ground AP bread flour, salt, olive oil.


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## cawilson6072 (Jul 10, 2021)

And…sourdough “Challah”. Same starter as the boules, but of course enriched with eggs and honey. These are more of a show stopper in our kitchen than the sourdough, but generally reserved for when we have family visiting to help consume.


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## cawilson6072 (Jul 10, 2021)

Michi said:


> I meekly stand on the shoulders of giants.



On the shoulders of giants indeed. It’s amazing what can be practically accomplished with a good source of ingredients (by true experts), some simple guidance from the likes of Mark Bittman, and willingness to hold instructions as more of a guidance than a set of hard rules (and adjust based on how things are coming together).


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## Miso-Mustard91 (Jul 10, 2021)

My wife often questions me why I obsess over baking SD boules especially over the winter period when the challenges of temperature for a newbie can be hard to understand.

Ive tried my hand at sourdough for the last few years and found with the urge to constantly improve and gather more knowledge comes understanding and consistency.

This is my most recent bake (I dare say my 8th attempt)







Things that I have certainly paid more attention to is:
-starter needs to be fully active, used when it has a little bit more to give
-temperature formula is a must in winter
-an esky with a hot water bottle and small bucket of hot water can hold good temperatures of 24-27C
-baking schedules are not gospel
-gut instinct or “feel” often helps troubleshoot
-I kept a little journal of the steps through out the whole day and thoughts to see where I can improve 

I’d be pretty happy to improve on my current loaves.

@Luftmensch if you like Sonoma I also recommend brasserie bread, personally I find the flavour of brasserie is a little more sour, their plain boulot is delicious, sometimes local markets have a stand (pre covid lockdowns)


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## ian (Jul 10, 2021)

I keep telling myself that I will start a bread journal, but it turns out I’m too lazy


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## Luftmensch (Jul 10, 2021)

Miso-Mustard91 said:


> @Luftmensch if you like Sonoma I also recommend brasserie bread, personally I find the flavour of brasserie is a little more sour, their plain boulot is delicious, sometimes local markets have a stand (pre covid lockdowns)



True! Brasserie Bread is great. Sonoma are just more available for us. We can get their bread at our local supermarket. I went to a bread making class at Brasserie Bread in 2018(?). It was a lot of fun - we ended up with two full bags of bread to take home. The following week was bread heavy (in a good way)!

My next step in bread making was going to a sourdough class at Staple Bakery in the Northern Beaches (2019). It was pretty good timing actually. It prepared me for 2020 . If you are ever in the area, checkout Staple. The bread is great. The baker is a real hoot - a fun guy. He gave the students in his class a dollop of his starter... though I am sure mine has changed in the three years since I have used it!

During the sourdough class he introduced us (or at least me) to Pepe Saya butter. @Miso-Mustard91 - you'll definitely be able to find it. @4wa1l, @Nemo... you _should_ be able to get some...I am not sure how big their distribution network is? @Michi, I am not sure if they ship it that far north... you probably can get it. It is _expensive_ butter... but man.... It is almost like a light cream/cheese. I recommend giving it a try. I think it is too nice (expensive) for general use - if you are going to crowd it out by other flavours. But freshly baked bread with some of that butter is one of those wonderful, simple pleasures.


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## coxhaus (Jul 10, 2021)

I think butter should be a part of a bread thread. This is what I have found in the US. Anybody know of a better butter in the US?


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## parbaked (Jul 10, 2021)

You can buy great French butter online. Search for Beurre de Baratte or churned butter.

For US made, Straus is local to me and excellent. Really good people too!








Sustainable Organic Dairy - Straus Family Creamery


Straus is committed to crafting premium certified organic milk, yogurt, ice cream, milk, butter, and sour cream with sustainable practices.




www.strausfamilycreamery.com





These guys have national distribution if you want salted, cultured butter. We use this sometimes on good bread…


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## coxhaus (Jul 10, 2021)

I found Straus within 22 miles so I will try it some time. Thanks.

PS
It is listing Wholefoods in Austin TX as having Beurre de Baratte butter. I will buy some of it also if I find it.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 11, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I think butter should be a part of a bread thread.



100% agree. Bread baking reignited my relationship with butter... From something I barely ever used... to something I now use rarely but with joyous abandon when I do

I would be keen to hear about French butters... With the recent trend of local boutique production, I wonder if they are head and shoulders above our domestic boutique production (or just marginally tastier). I have no doubt French butter is grand... I would like to test some of this 'nice stuff' against Australia's local choices. Australia is solidly a dairy country. We have good quality produce that doesnt have to travel halfway across the world to get to our plates. Some butter here probably doesnt even have to enter the cold chain!


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## Michi (Jul 11, 2021)

I've bought the President (French brand) butter a few times over the past year. It's good. But not noticeably better than some of the other Australian brands, such as Western Star.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 11, 2021)

Michi said:


> I've bought the President (French brand) butter a few times over the past year. It's good. But not noticeably better than some of the other Australian brands, such as Western Star.



Western Star is our default.... but we are fairly promiscuous with our general purpose butter. It depends on what is on special and whether we are in Coles or Woolies. We are currently near the end of a block of Mainland butter.

I had a look... You should be able to find Pepe Saya in Brisbane. Woolies has it listed online (but unlikely available in every store). There seem to be some BrisVegas butchers that stock it. I don't want to set unreal expectations... but it is a nice treat. If you havent tried it and happen to stumble across it.... Give it a go


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## MarcelNL (Jul 11, 2021)

Beppi Ocelli makes some nice butter, and cheeses, my absolute fave is alpine butter...cows eating alpine herbs and grass resulting in these flavors trickling through in the milk/cream/butter. There ought to be farms near you where they keep cows on organic pastures with their natural herbs in them...try it and see how much more flavor butter can have !
(Kerry Gold is nice but a starting point IMO)


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## Miso-Mustard91 (Jul 11, 2021)

@Luftmensch Pepe saya is good stuff, I remember my old restaurant use to haves box of single serves for functions, needless to say I would use them on my toast haha!

I was working at a fairly well known gastro pub in Sydney a few years ago and we would whip the very best double cream we could order from our suppliers along with some creme fraiche with a little Tasmanian sea salt flakes through it also….delicious!

@Michi present is so-so you’re right, if you can get your hands on some Lescure or Beurre d Isigny, either is beautiful, also can’t go wrong with LURPAK


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## 4wa1l (Jul 11, 2021)

@Luftmensch you mentioned things going slowly in the cold. My last few loaves have definitely been under proved and today I set out to make a properly fermented dough. With 20% levain, 2% salt and 81% hydration the dough still took over 8 hours to bulk. The dough started at about 26°C (79°F) and using the oven light I maintained a temp around 24°C (75°F). This seemed very slow to me. Is this sort of timing normal for anyone else at these temps? I used an organic stoneground white flour so no wholewheat or rye.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 13, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> @Luftmensch you mentioned things going slowly in the cold. My last few loaves have definitely been under proved and today I set out to make a properly fermented dough. With 20% levain, 2% salt and 81% hydration the dough still took over 8 hours to bulk. The dough started at about 26°C (79°F) and using the oven light I maintained a temp around 24°C (75°F). This seemed very slow to me. Is this sort of timing normal for anyone else at these temps? I used an organic stoneground white flour so no wholewheat or rye.



I wanted to wait to reply. I had some 70% wholewheat, 30% rye, bulk fermenting yesterday. My kitchen wavers between 17°C and 20°C depending on whether we are running the heaters (mostly on the 17-18°C end). Unfortunatly I got distracted during dinner - so my dough had 8-9 hours to bulk ferment. It double in size which is more than I like to let it achieve - so I actually think this bread is over fermented... we'll see. I would have preferred 5-6 hours. In summer... when I do most of my baking (for some reason) i bulk for 2ish hours.

I should have given myself a softer introduction! At 82% hydration and 30% rye... shaping was a farce . This might lend some evidence that I the dough over fermented and actually broken down the gluten... we'll see. I am havent decided if I will bake it tonight or let it proof until tomorrow - I should probably bake tonight.


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## Lars (Jul 13, 2021)

+1 Lurpak. Or any danish butter really, it's all nice stuff..


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## 4wa1l (Jul 13, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> I wanted to wait to reply. I had some 70% wholewheat, 30% rye, bulk fermenting yesterday. My kitchen wavers between 17°C and 20°C depending on whether we are running the heaters (mostly on the 17-18°C end). Unfortunatly I got distracted during dinner - so my dough had 8-9 hours to bulk ferment. It double in size which is more than I like to let it achieve - so I actually think this bread is over fermented... we'll see. I would have preferred 5-6 hours. In summer... when I do most of my baking (for some reason) i bulk for 2ish hours.
> 
> I should have given myself a softer introduction! At 82% hydration and 30% rye... shaping was a farce . This might lend some evidence that I the dough over fermented and actually broken down the gluten... we'll see. I am havent decided if I will bake it tonight or let it proof until tomorrow - I should probably bake tonight.



That sounds delicious, hopefully it turns out well. I know flours are different everywhere but I'm always amazed at the 85%+ hydration country style loaves some people seem to shape with ease. Also 2 hours is super fast! Don't think I've ever managed much under 4 hours for a bulk ferment even when very hot in the summer.

I found out that 8 hours probably was a bit long and I went too far in the bulk. I also had to retard in the fridge for 24 hours. I think if I had baked sooner it may have been ok but unfortunately wasn't able to do so. The loaf ended up very flat but tastes pretty good at least. Hoping next time I hit the sweet spot. Probably could've baked a bit longer/hotter too.


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## ian (Jul 13, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> I know flours are different everywhere but I'm always amazed at the 85%+ hydration country style loaves some people seem to shape with ease.



I guess when it’s totally whole wheat that’s a slightly more reasonable percentage. But yea, some people make it look like pure witchcraft. I’m in awe.




4wa1l said:


> Also 2 hours is super fast! Don't think I've ever managed much under 4 hours for a bulk ferment even when very hot in the summer.



Probably depends on the amount of starter, too. 2-3 hrs is a standard recommendation for bulk ferment in Hamelman’s book. The final dough below calls for 6.4 lbs of levain to 16 lbs of flour.


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## rmrf (Jul 13, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> the dough still took over 8 hours to bulk. The dough started at about 26°C (79°F) and using the oven light I maintained a temp around 24°C (75°F).


8 hour bulk is a long time at around room temperature for me but if it rises enough (I do 1.5x but most people say 2x volume) then its fine. I've done 6 hour bulk ferment at ~70F room temperature.



Luftmensch said:


> I should have given myself a softer introduction! At 82% hydration and 30% rye... shaping was a farce


Damn, 30% rye? You're brave. I've never done more than 15-20 and the texture was really hard for me to work. Rye and high hydration is just tough. I'd recommend a 100% rye starter, very high protein flour, and gentle gluten development.




ian said:


> I guess when it’s totally whole wheat that’s a slightly more reasonable percentage. But yea, some people make it look like pure witchcraft. I’m in awe.


I saw someone shaping >100 hydration on youtube. Amazing. I think that for similar protein, white develops stronger gluten than whole wheat. However, the bran in whole wheat absorbs water so it feels drier. I find I just need to trust my percentages and make small adjustments after seeing the results.



Michi said:


> I found that making bread (and baking in general) is a lot harder in winter than in summer. It's dry and cold here in winter, neither of which are conducive to the dough.


Dry and cold is so annoying. To cope with winter, I bought a proofing box. Expensive, but totally worth reliable proof times. I also use a container with volume measurements so I don't have to guess on volume. Its still a pain for final proof, after shaping, though.


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## MrHiggins (Jul 18, 2021)

I'm still experimenting with my sourdough loaves. I started mixing rye flour into my feeder (about 20%), which I think works well. Here's this morning's loaf: mostly AP flour, but with a bit of wheat germ and honey. The butter is from a local dairy ranch and is 85% European style. This is the best loaf I've made so far.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 19, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> Also 2 hours is super fast! Don't think I've ever managed much under 4 hours for a bulk ferment even when very hot in the summer.



Really!!?? If you are ACT/NSW, ambient temperatures ought to be conducive to fast bulk fermentation... Unless you run AC at a low set point? The two things I do to time my bulk fermentation are:

Over specify the recipe by 50-100g of flour (match water and salt etc to the flour increase). When you get to bulk ferment, tear out 100-200g of mixed dough and put into your starter jar. You can now use this as a 'timer'. Squash the dough level into the bottom and put a rubber band around the jar at the dough line. You can now easily see how much it has risen. I am for 1.25 - 1.5x
When stretching and folding the dough, watch out for little gas blisters - if the dough feels elastic and silky, this might be a good time to shape the boules.
The combination of these two means it is imprecise - and I decide based on when I could be bothered... but that is about 2 hours in summer (a bit more after faffing about cleaning etc).



ian said:


> I guess when it’s totally whole wheat that’s a slightly more reasonable percentage. But yea, some people make it look like pure witchcraft. I’m in awe.



Not me... I look like a cat that stepped on a post-it note.... 





rmrf said:


> Damn, 30% rye? You're brave.



I think stupid is a better adjective....



rmrf said:


> I've never done more than 15-20 and the texture was really hard for me to work. Rye and high hydration is just tough. I'd recommend a 100% rye starter, very high protein flour, and gentle gluten development.



I routinely do an 80% whole wheat, 20% rye mix. Like @ian says... I am sure the bran helps soak up the water... so the effective hydration is probably lower than what I calculate.

I havent tried a 100% rye starter! I might give that a go. I am also pretty lazy... I haven't gone out of my way to find a high protein flour. I just use what I can buy at my local grocery... (Aussies, it is golden shore flour)


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## Luftmensch (Jul 19, 2021)

Just came out the oven!

Less ambitious: 75% whole wheat, 25% rye, 75% hydration






Okay ear on the batard:






Okay score/ear on the boule:






Still a room for improvement in keeping tension in the dough. And still too eager with dusting the dough... I have been bitten by dough sticking to my baskets too many times!

@4wa1l bulk ferment was 4-5hrs. Again, my kitchen was probably bouncing around 17°C and 20°C.


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## Michi (Jul 19, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Just came out the oven!


Looks great! How is the crumb?


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## Luftmensch (Jul 19, 2021)

Michi said:


> Looks great! How is the crumb?



Thank you @Michi!

I am trying to be patient! Will update (probably tomorrow) when the bread has cooled down.


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## Michi (Jul 19, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> I am trying to be patient! Will update (probably tomorrow) when the bread has cooled down.


I usually cut the first slice after an hour and fifteen minutes, because I cannot control myself for any longer than that


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## ian (Jul 19, 2021)

I love the taste after an hour out of the oven. I mean, ok, maybe it'll improve after a day or something, but there's still gonna be some left then anyway!


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## Michi (Jul 19, 2021)

It’s hard to think of something better than a slice of bread that‘s still slightly warm from the oven with a bit of butter and a few flakes of sea salt.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 19, 2021)

Michi said:


> Looks great! How is the crumb?



Really nice and spongy. Soft!










Michi said:


> I usually cut the first slice after an hour and fifteen minutes, because I cannot control myself for any longer than that



I'm usually less patient than that! Turns out - baking just before dinner is a good way of distracting yourself! 



ian said:


> I love the taste after an hour out of the oven. I mean, ok, maybe it'll improve after a day or something, but there's still gonna be some left then anyway!



That is a benefit of baking two at a time! You can greedily rip into one and let the other one cool properly. I think it is more about moisture content control rather than taste? I find that if I lack any patience, the crumb can still be tacky. I think the bread also dries out quicker?


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## Michi (Jul 20, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Really nice and spongy. Soft!


That looks really nice! Good oven spring, too!


> That is a benefit of baking two at a time! You can greedily rip into one and let the other one cool properly.


I'm too lazy to knead two lots of dough by hand, and two lots won't fit into my stand mixer. On the other hand, I could make the doughs back-to-back, stretch and fold, etc, etc, and then stick both of them into the fridge overnight. Then bake one after the other.

Doh! I feel like beginner now… 


> I think it is more about moisture content control rather than taste? I find that if I lack any patience, the crumb can still be tacky. I think the bread also dries out quicker?


Yes. If you cut the loaf too soon, it'll still be doughy inside and, because it's hot, more moisture will escape. It's a good idea to wait for at least an hour before cutting into a loaf. But, as I said, and hour and fifteen minutes is my personal limit


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## 4wa1l (Jul 20, 2021)

@Luftmensch they look excellent! Do you use any particular brand of wholewheat flour?

I find that you get a more pronounced acidity if you can wait for a day before cutting into the bread. I have to bake two loaves or I can never wait that long though


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## Luftmensch (Aug 4, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> @Luftmensch they look excellent! Do you use any particular brand of wholewheat flour?



Thanks you!  

I suppose the answer is: no?? I just buy what is available. That tends to be Golden Shore (mostly) or White Wings (less often). I should go on an ingredient adventure and experiment.

Bob's Red Mill has some interesting options that I haven't played with yet.





Michi said:


> That looks really nice! Good oven spring, too!
> 
> I'm too lazy to knead two lots of dough by hand, and two lots won't fit into my stand mixer. On the other hand, I could make the doughs back-to-back, stretch and fold, etc, etc, and then stick both of them into the fridge overnight. Then bake one after the other.
> 
> Doh! I feel like beginner now…




Beginner? Nup! You're a talented guy! Totally within your capabilities

Two is my limit. Fridge and oven space are the limiting factor. I wouldn't enjoy baking one after the other. Two can only _just_ fit into my oven side-by-side. They tend to expand into each other - it makes them a little ugly but they are fine! At a stretch, I could do four small loaves, a pair on two separate levels.

I treat the dough the same for one or two. Stretch and fold or coil fold. Both are pretty scalable. But true; vigourous kneading would be tough for multiple loaves!


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## ian (Aug 4, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Thanks you!
> 
> I suppose the answer is: no?? I just buy what is available. That tends to be Golden Shore (mostly) or White Wings (less often). I should go on an ingredient adventure and experiment.
> 
> ...



My problem is we can't eat two loaves before they go stale!


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## Luftmensch (Aug 4, 2021)

ian said:


> My problem is we can't eat two loaves before they go stale!



True that... 

It depends on what we are eating. We can easily do two in a soup week. This week our second loaf is looking like it will be going stale.

Since you raised it, do you find your bread goes stale much quicker than store-bought? I know mass-market bread is pumped full of preservatives. But I get the impression the bakery bread we get is wholesome... It seems to stay fresh longer...


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## ian (Aug 4, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> True that...
> 
> It depends on what we are eating. We can easily do two in a soup week. This week our second loaf is looking like it will be going stale.
> 
> Since you raised it, do you find your bread goes stale much quicker than store-bought? I know mass-market bread is pumped full of preservatives. But I get the impression the bakery bread we get is wholesome... It seems to stay fresh longer...



I don't know, we don't really get good bread from the store. My wife just likes to buy sliced sourdough and keep it in the fridge for toast. Probably the answer is yes tho.

Speaking of staling, I was noticing this week that my non-sourdough bagels have (not surprisingly) gone stale faster than my usual sourdough ones. Sourdough ftw!


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## Luftmensch (Aug 4, 2021)

ian said:


> I was noticing this week that my non-sourdough bagels have (not surprisingly) gone stale faster than my usual sourdough ones. Sourdough ftw!



It would be interesting to know the mechanisms at play there!

I don't know about stale... but apparently sourdough has an advantage when it comes to mould. Apparently the bacteria in sourdough produce compounds during fermentation that inhibit fungal growth. Go figure! The yeast certainly don't mind. The slight acidity is also a mild preservative


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## coxhaus (Aug 4, 2021)

I take left over bread and cut it up into 1-inch cubes then I fry it in olive oil with coarse salt in the pan to where the outside bread cubes are light brown. It makes great croutons for salads.


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## rmrf (Aug 5, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Since you raised it, do you find your bread goes stale much quicker than store-bought? I know mass-market bread is pumped full of preservatives. But I get the impression the bakery bread we get is wholesome... It seems to stay fresh longer...





ian said:


> Speaking of staling, I was noticing this week that my non-sourdough bagels have (not surprisingly) gone stale faster than my usual sourdough ones. Sourdough ftw!


I think it is important to distinguish between stale and dry. I use "stale" as a taste and is not reversable. "Dryness" is a texture and is generally reversable by adding water to the surface or soaking for a few minutes in extreme circumstances. In my experience, almost all bread goes dry before it goes stale. Some bread obviously goes stale (a baguette from france) and will be unpalatable a day after purchase no matter how much soaking and baking you do.

My sourdough basically never goes stale. A week after baking, it is still fine after heating in an oven for 5-15 minutes. After that, it is a little dry so I add some water to the outside of the bread before reheating. After 2-3 weeks, it is too dry and refreshing the bread requires soaking, slicing, and baking into croustini. However, the bread doesn't really get "stale". These numbers change depending on loaf dimensions (baguette drys faster than a loaf) and if you have a porridge (~2x).

On the flip side, when I used to bake 100% white yeasted breads, it would dry out faster and within a week, would taste stale even if refreshed with water. Doughs with both a yeast poolish and a levain get stale within a week or two so I suspect the stale flavor comes from degrading yeast byproducts. Preservatives or flavorings can probably cover up that taste or alter the texture to keep the bread soft and pillow-y for longer.



Luftmensch said:


> I don't know about stale... but apparently sourdough has an advantage when it comes to mould. Apparently the bacteria in sourdough produce compounds during fermentation that inhibit fungal growth. Go figure! The yeast certainly don't mind. The slight acidity is also a mild preservative



I found mould to be very salt-dependent. I ended up raising my salt percentage (baker's percentage) from 1% to a little less than 2%. At 1%, my bread moulds in about a week in humid summertime weather. At 2%, it very rarely moulds in a 3 week interval. I don't really notice a significant flavor difference until below 1% salt. Then again, I usually eat bread with cheese or something salted.

For the longest lasting bread, I bake at ~2% salt, use a porridge, and store at room temperature uncovered. I try and have the bread only touching wood in a few places (I prop the bread up on wood chopsticks). The air flow I think helps. In my opinion, bread stored in the fridge is never quite as good; my pizza (which needs to be refrigerated after baking) dough is never quite as tasty as the bread from the same batch stored at room temp.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 7, 2021)

rmrf said:


> I think it is important to distinguish between stale and dry. I use "stale" as a taste and is not reversable. "Dryness" is a texture and is generally reversable by adding water to the surface or soaking for a few minutes in extreme circumstances. In my experience, almost all bread goes dry before it goes stale. Some bread obviously goes stale (a baguette from france) and will be unpalatable a day after purchase no matter how much soaking and baking you do.





Good point! 

I think this is more of a modern cultural thing though? Stale has never meant rancid or "off". It implies food is past its prime but is still edible... At least in my interpretation.

My sourdough gets "dry" pretty quickly - within a few days. It is fine to eat! If you dont mind drier bread or are happy to make toast... no problems. Our bread always gets eaten. I doubt we have taken longer than a week... maybe 12 days at the worst??

Kind of makes me think... we are probably too accustomed to eating 'perfect' food. In the grand scheme of things, this is a recent phenomenon. For most of our history we were routinely eating stale food. To your point Ruisreikäleipä is a great example of bread that is designed to have a long shelf life - although it is "dry" it is not "off".


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## M1k3 (Aug 7, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Good point!
> 
> I think this is more of a modern cultural thing though? Stale has never meant rancid or "off". It implies food is past its prime but is still edible... At least in my interpretation.
> 
> ...


Panzanella.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 7, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Panzanella.



Ha! True!


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