# Any F1 fans here?



## Bart.s

Me, being from holland, really got excited yesterday. Max Verstappen got a good start to the season, being the fastest in all training sessions and getting pole position . Honda seems to have got their act together, the Alphatauri's also being fast.

Would this finally be the season where the dominance of Mercedes ends?


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## Moooza

I really hope Verstappen wins the title this year


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## Bart.s

Moooza said:


> I really hope Verstappen wins the title this year



Hope so too. While I love F1, it has gotten somewhat boring, Mercedes being so dominant the last years. Hope to see a fight for the title this year .


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## Moooza

What a race! 

So much potential for this season even after last season which I think was the best ever.


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## Corradobrit1

Close race. Great to see after so much Merc domination. Clearly RB still has reliability issues and I hope that doesn't bite them in the ass through the season. I can't see Max staying if they screw this up. The Aston Martins (even the AM safety car is cool) look good. And Mclaren are racy this year too.


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## Bart.s

Nice to see that RB can fight Mercedes now from the beginning of the season instead of playing catch up. Don't know what happened to Perez in the formation lap, but drove a solid race after that. If RB keeps this up, we are in for an exciting season  .


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## Keith Sinclair

My favorite F1 was early 1960's when rear engines were just catching on. Open wheel racers most beautiful F1 race cars.


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## Keith Sinclair

Few of my 1/18 scale 60's F1. Sorry to get a little off topic


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## Bart.s

Cars of that era are really beautiful and elegant. Those guys had guts, because deaths were very common. Luckily we have come a long way, just look at the crash of Grosjean last year in Bahrein.

If I had to pick some favorites from the 60s, I'd say the Lotus 49 and the Eagle mk1. Modern cars would be the '91 jordan and the '92 Williams. They even sounded beter than present day cars.


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## Bobby2shots

Heckuva drive by Checo,,,, starts from pit-lane (last) and finishes 5th,,,,,,,Wow!! I can't wait to see how he fares vs Max this season. Yuki Tsunoda was also VERY impressive.


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## Bart.s

To quote Perez: "It’ll take me five races to get the best out of Red Bull". One thing is for sure, once he is used to the car, he won't be giving any presents to Verstappen (as he shoudn't). Also very interested on how it plays out.


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## LostHighway

Bart.s said:


> Cars of that era are really beautiful and elegant. Those guys had guts, because deaths were very common. Luckily we have come a long way, just look at the crash of Grosjean last year in Bahrein.
> 
> If I had to pick some favorites from the 60s, I'd say the Lotus 49 and the Eagle mk1. Modern cars would be the '91 jordan and the '92 Williams. They even sounded beter than present day cars.



I was fan of the Honda 3.0 liter cars of the late '60s with John Surteees at the wheel in addition to the Lotus and the Eagle


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## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> To quote Perez: "It’ll take me five races to get the best out of Red Bull". One thing is for sure, once he is used to the car, he won't be giving any presents to Verstappen (as he shoudn't). Also very interested on how it plays out.



Checko was also voted "Driver of the Day" after the race.

Lando finished just one position short of a podium (4th). Great drives from both McLaren drivers. Like Checko, this was Ricciardo's first race with a new team.(7th)

Sad to see what's happening with Seb. (grid penalty/started last/finished 15th) Only 16 cars finished the race.


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## Bart.s

The mclarens are definitely fast this year, having the mercedes power. Although I think they are still missing speed to be a serious treat to RB or mercedes.

Seb had the wrong strategy, going for an one-stop and staying out way too long on those tires. The crash and penalty didn't help either.


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## Keith Sinclair

I'll have to check what sports channel. I get TDF
& World surfing so sure I have it.

I bet most on this thread have seen John Frankenheimer Grand Prix that came out in 1966. It's the kind of movie that needs a good home sound system.

In early 2000's went to Vegas with some Bartenders at work. I'm not a gambler but played same # on 100 dollar games & won on one of them. So did things like go to the auto displays. Saw a Lotus 25 was a work of mechanical art at its finest. Came back home go my first 1/18 die cast Lotus 25 # Dutch GP
1962.


















The Ferrari 500 F2 1953 was my first CMC model German company made with cheap labor in China top of the line diecast. After collected many of the open wheel CMC racers.
For example this F2 has 1,463 parts, (1,150 are metal) four wheel working suspension.



]1


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## Keith Sinclair

OK I found it second round April 18 Imola Italy. 
On ESPN2 I will put the series on timer boy they do a lot of races in a season.

Little info above cars silver Auto Union type C
1936 V16 cylinder powerhouse able to hit speeds of over 200mph in 1936. Built by Ferdinand Porsche. It didn't handle well at time on winding courses the Alfa Monza's still won races. 

The blue car is the Bugatti type 35 the most winning gran prix car of all time. It dominated the 1920's winning over 600 races up into early 30's when Alfa Romeo Monza's dethroned it.

Bugatti was way ahead of his time. Light weight
Race cars, aluminum alloy wheels in 1920's!
Straight 8 supercharged engine. 

Watch the car channel saw episode of Wayne Carini driving a replica type 35 made by Pursang in Argentina. Didn't even know about them. Jay Leno owns Bugatti type 35 & Alfa Romeo Monza hand built with english wheels & hammers shaping bodies by Argentine craftsmen. UTube has quite a few guys driving these true replicas. Leno can't take his 8 million dollar Bugatti on the road but these Pursang he cracks them open on the freeway.

Somehow think the world is a better place with 
companies like Pursang.


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## Moooza

The power in those old cars, with such thin wheels, nothing even resembling safety, absolutely incredible.


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## Bart.s

Those old cars are beautiful. Fast also, even by today's standards. All of them deathtraps.

I have been watching a lot of old seasons on the F1 TV Racing archive.

Link archive

They go back to 1970. Even back then, racing was very dangerous.


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## Corradobrit1

Bart.s said:


> Those old cars are beautiful. Fast also, even by today's standards. All of them deathtraps.
> 
> I have been watching a lot of old seasons on the F1 TV Racing archive.
> 
> Link archive
> 
> They go back to 1970. Even back then, racing was very dangerous.


Jim Clark would agree. A promising career cut way too short by a V8 powered Cosworth Lotus 48. Arguably considered by many to be the best F1 driver of all time.


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## Keith Sinclair

Moooza said:


> The power in those old cars, with such thin wheels, nothing even resembling safety, absolutely incredible.



I noticed the tires are thicker on the pursang from what have seen in archival pictures & restored type 35. Also plain bearings better metals in engine making it more reliable & diff firing order for more HP. And cooling fan.


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## Koop

I've been a F! fan since the 60s and attended several races.

Not trying to raise fireworks, but I have to say the bureaucrats that currently run F1 are killing the sport. Lewis Hamilton exceeds track limits 29 times on turn 4, but is ruled to "not have gained an advantage." If he wasn't gaining an advantage, he wouldn't be using that line. Max does it as he passes Lewis and is immediately told to relinquish the position. Hmmm....


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## Corradobrit1

Koop said:


> I've been a F! fan since the 60s and attended several races.
> 
> Not trying to raise fireworks, but I have to say the bureaucrats that currently run F1 are killing the sport. Lewis Hamilton exceeds track limits 29 times on turn 4, but is ruled to "not have gained an advantage." If he wasn't gaining an advantage, he wouldn't be using that line. Max does it as he passes Lewis and is immediately told to relinquish the position. Hmmm....


He was warned by race direction not do it but continued without repercussions. Stinks tbh


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## Bart.s

The rules were very sketchy about turn 4. They couldn't go wide in P or Q, but they wouldn't monitor it during the race. When taking the wider line, it can save 0.1/0.2 sec a lap and puts less load on the tires. 

I do think that Masi should have been on top of this, giving a warning to Hamilton after the third or so time.


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## Keith Sinclair

In many sports bureaucrats may overthink situations. American football is example. Most changes are for a reason like opening up the passing game by limiting the tackle tactics severely. It's smart though safety is important 
or mom's will not let their kids play football.

Even in 1994 Senna of Brazil was killed when a wheel came off & hit him in the head. That's why safety skirts over front wheels now.

The cars are not sexy as in the golden years in the 1960's. But they were death traps. Even gas tanks on Lotus wrapped around the driver's seat. Even so they were beautiful machines.


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## panda

Hamilton is the worst dominant athlete, no charisma what so ever lol


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## mauichef

The turn 4 issue was a typical Masi mess. Lewis did not gain an advantage? How's that? Of course he did. 29 times!!!! I have been a passionate fan of the sport since the late 50's and have been involved in racing most of my life. But this recent decade of F1 has left me feeling very sad for the sport. I thought that Liberty were going to get things sorted but looks like its all about the money and not the racing.


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## mauichef

Keith Sinclair said:


> OK I found it second round April 18 Imola Italy.
> On ESPN2 I will put the series on timer boy they do a lot of races in a season.


Make sure you record the program after as they always run long and you will miss the end for sure! The best way is to spring for ESPN+. Its so worth the money if you love racing. The F2 races are brilliant...way better than F1. Plus it's all on demand so no stupid recording needs. And they show more stuff in the build shows up too.


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## mauichef

My painting of my favorite driver of all time. Jim Clark. 
*The Flying Scotsman*
Acrylic on Canvas
40" x 30"


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## mauichef

Another great!
Fangio's finest and last victory.


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## mauichef

But not to forget Michael.........


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## Keith Sinclair

mauichef said:


> Make sure you record the program after as they always run long and you will miss the end for sure! The best way is to spring for ESPN+. Its so worth the money if you love racing. The F2 races are brilliant...way better than F1. Plus it's all on demand so no stupid recording needs. And they show more stuff in the build shows up too.


 
Thanks Bro do that with boxing after watching pre fights only to run out of time in the main event. 

Jim Clark drove that #4 diecast model above at Dutch GP 1962. Car was low, driver was laying down in the driver tub. Was far stiffer & only weight 995 lbs. 

Next year he dominated winning many races & the F1 world championship.

Later he died driving the Ford Cosworth V8 Lotus 48. I have that model too.


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## mauichef

I was at Brands Hatch that day watching the BOAC 500 which he was supposed to be driving in. But some of the top F1 guys decided to race in the F2 Hockenheim race so he had to go there instead


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## Koop

Bart.s said:


> The rules were very sketchy about turn 4. They couldn't go wide in P or Q, but they wouldn't monitor it during the race. When taking the wider line, it can save 0.1/0.2 sec a lap and puts less load on the tires.
> 
> I do think that Masi should have been on top of this, giving a warning to Hamilton after the third or so time.


This. When rule enforcement becomes arbitrary and seemingly uneven, the integrity of the sport suffers. Hamilton went beyond track limits deliberately until his team told him he should stop doing it before the stewards took action. Changing the rules on the fly and making lame excuses for not taking action sooner is not the way forward.


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## Corradobrit1

Keith Sinclair said:


> Even in 1994 Senna of Brazil was killed when a wheel came off & hit him in the head. That's why safety skirts over front wheels now.


Thats not what killed him. He hit a concrete wall at over 140mph, parts of the vehicle penetrated his helmet and he died from skull fractures and a burst cerebral artery. I think there have been other incidents over the years involving wheels which resulted in the tethering system being implemented.


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## Keith Sinclair

Could be mistaken thought I read when he hit the wall front wheel came off & hit his head.


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## mauichef

Keith Sinclair said:


> In many sports bureaucrats may overthink situations. American football is example. Most changes are for a reason like opening up the passing game by limiting the tackle tactics severely. It's smart though safety is important
> or mom's will not let their kids play football.
> 
> Even in 1994 Senna of Brazil was killed when a wheel came off & hit him in the head. That's why safety skirts over front wheels now.
> 
> The cars are not sexy as in the golden years in the 1960's. But they were death traps. Even gas tanks on Lotus wrapped around the driver's seat. Even so they were beautiful machines.



Yes he did get hit by the right front wheel and then a piece of suspension and a piece of the upright punctured his helmet. Apparently the wheel drove his head into the headrest which was displaced due to the original impact, that then caused massive skull fractures. So while there were 3 different things that could have resulted in his death. The wheel and headrest were apparently the actual reason. At least that is what I always understood.

Safety skirts in F1, no. Wheel tethers, yes.


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## Bart.s

Again, what a qualification .
1, 2 and 3 within a tenth of a second.

Perez suprised me with his last lap, but good to see he is getting used to the car. Max wil be sick about it .

It is going to be an exciting race tomorrow, with 2 RB's hunting Hamilton. Max is on the same tyre strategy as Hamilton. And he finally has what he needs, a wingman that can keep up. Can't wait for tomorrow.


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## osakajoe

Had plans to go to suzuka race last year and this year, but COVID...


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## Bart.s

osakajoe said:


> Had plans to go to suzuka race last year and this year, but COVID...



F1 was supposed to come to Zandvoort last year. They come this year, but unsure if public is allowed.


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## Keith Sinclair

Bart 
Do they do vintage & special races like Porsche GT4. Seems I saw couple races on TV from track in Holland.


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## Corradobrit1

McLaren are looking racy. Shame about Norris' last lap. Not sure what's up with Bottas.


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## SeattleB

panda said:


> Hamilton is the worst dominant athlete, no charisma what so ever lol



Raikonnen or Schumacher might win that particular competition. Vettel wouldn't be my first choice for a dinner party. Hamilton may not be the most charismatic guy in the world but he gives a good interview with thoughtful rather than stock answers. I'd love to have a beer with the guy.


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## Bart.s

Keith Sinclair said:


> Bart
> Do they do vintage & special races like Porsche GT4. Seems I saw couple races on TV from track in Holland.



Must have been the Historic grand prix at Zandvoort. It's an event they organize each year, they get on the circuit with old sportcars, touringcars, GT's and F1 cars, dating back to the 60's, some even older.


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## Keith Sinclair

Well I'm taping the series live 3am you when wake up in Hawaii can watch it & skip commercials.


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## Bart.s

Miami Grand Prix to join F1 calendar in 2022, with exciting new circuit planned | Formula 1®


Formula 1 is heading back to Florida, with the news that the brand-new Miami Grand Prix will join the F1 calendar in 2022.




www.formula1.com


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## Keith Sinclair

Flashing rain lights plenty crashes. I'll have to research the cars & driver's so know more about modern F1.


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## Corradobrit1

Great race. I love these old school race tracks like Imola, Spa and Monza.


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## Keith Sinclair

It was exciting race. Hamilton falling way back from close 2nd place when he spun out to 9th. Racing back to second place at finish.

Max won by a large margin in a Red Bull Honda.

Interesting the modern F1 engines. 1.6 liter V6
with turbocharging & hybrid electric energy recovery systems. Amazing the HP they can get out of a 1.5L V6. 

I read today that only engine makers are Mercedes, Honda, Ferrari, & Renault.
They are complex and expensive to build.

Honda is considering dropping out of F1 engine 
production. That is not good Honda being a leader in racing & engines for vehicles.

I read somewhere that the Japan government wants all Japanese car companies to only produce electric vehicles in coming decades.

There has been push back from Toyota & Honda. Folks are saying all road vehicles will be 
electric sooner than you think. I'll believe it when I see it. Nickel Cad. batteries have to get better if they can produce better batteries at reasonable cost then electric will expand quickly.


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## Corradobrit1

Hopefully I'm of an age that I'll never have to endure that nightmare. Now if hydrogen becomes mainstream for consumer vehicles I may reconsider. Not so much a Tiger in your tank but a Zeppelin.......


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## Koop

Honda announced their withdrawal already, however an agreement was reached with Red Bull to continue to develop the powerplant with Honda advisors. I don't know how Red Bull will brand their power unit next year, but it won't be branded Honda.
Lewis Hamilton was down a lap which he was allowed to take back after the red flag restart. His result is artificial in my opinion.


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## Koop

I should add - Max Verstappen and Lando Norris drove a master class race. It's exciting to see young talent showing their mettle.


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## Bobby2shots

SeattleB said:


> Vettel wouldn't be my first choice for a dinner party.


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## Bart.s

What a race, max had a great start. Norris also had a solid race. Was a little disappointed in Perez however. After het qualification, I thought he would do better on sunday. Overtaking during the SC is just a rookie mistake.

And Hamilton. Coming from P9 back to P2, where Bottas couldn't get it done in the same car. But the luck on that guy, spinning off the track and seconds later Russell and Bottas crash, A SC and thereby not losing to much time and getting his pitstop basically for free .

On electric cars; my sister had a small one. With a range of about 250km (155 miles). However, this winter, when below 0°c, the thing would not charge fully anymore because of the cold. Range dropped down to about 150km (93 miles). Also, when below 50km (31 miles) things like the heater would turn off to safe battery. While it was ok to drive, I don't think that, at this moment, electric cars are that practical. Not to mention if you had to drive a long distance. Anyway, my sister traded it and is back to petrol.


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## Keith Sinclair

Agree hybrids maybe. Don't you know charging stations will be all over LOL. As said batteries not good enough yet to replace ICE. 

Self driving computers so you don't even have to drive. Just sit back. 

Rode Motorcycles most my life. At least have a 6-speed manual in my Subaru.


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## panda

Bart.s said:


> Miami Grand Prix to join F1 calendar in 2022, with exciting new circuit planned | Formula 1®
> 
> 
> Formula 1 is heading back to Florida, with the news that the brand-new Miami Grand Prix will join the F1 calendar in 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.formula1.com


totally gonna go see it


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## SeattleB

F1 in Miami? Ugh. Course plonked down at what looks to be a parking lot surrounding a stadium. Dead flat track with no natural features. Blazing hot and humid to make the drivers and crowd miserable. I wish F1 wouldn't just sell races to high bidders.


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## Bart.s

The tracks seems indeed to be a streetcircuit, a little like Albert Park Australia. While there are tracks in the US that I like more (Sonoma, Laguna Seca for example), the reality is that in the US there are almost none Grade 1 circuits for F1, COTA and miami being the only ones now. That, of course, limits the options.

As for the climate, can't be worse than Singapore


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## Keith Sinclair

Tracks like Laguna Seca & Watkins Glen stay afloat with many types of track day events. Guess it's the same with tracks in other countries. 

It would be good if F1 racing could get more popular in USA. It's like Cycling didn't know much at all about it. When Greg Lemonde started winning got some coverage in USA. back in late 1980's. 

Now can get the major tours on TV here but don't think it is that popular. (Soccer) another non US sport has caught on big time. My niece was a good player in woman's game. 

I liked Motorcycle racing back from American Kenny Roberts days, others like Eddy Lawson & Wayne Rainey. The Australian Mick Doohan. In later years the great Valentino Rossi.

Huge Boxing fan.

Mario Andretti who was champion in many types of American car racing considered F1 the top of the sport. He is a living legend in USA.

Never watched much F1. Been reading quite a bit last week how the cars work the functions on the steering "wheel". Didn't even know Hamilton had won so many. Seems like this present engine & car technology he has been dominate. It's like other sports people don't like winners that dominate. Like Tom Brady, Eddy Merckx, even so can't deny greatness of those two in their sports. 

Looking forward to following this season because of this thread.


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## Bart.s

Well, it's a good F1 season to begin following. Mercedes is, for quite some years, been the dominant team with the best cars. This season however, RB seems to have an answer. In the past seasons, they have been able to keep up/win after car updates in the late season. This season they seem to be able to keep up from the beginning, so it is going to be an exciting season.

As to cycling, I'm not really a fan, but didn't it catch on in the US when Lance Armstrong was champion?


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## Keith Sinclair

Well Greg was first that's around time I was doing cycle to the Sun races on Maui. Got interested in Cycling couldn't get much at all in coverage in US. Of coarse Lance Armstrong changed that. After his lies & cheating got turned off the sport myself for a while. Started watching again few years ago. There are so many sports channels now can find what you like. Things like Cycling, F1 & surfing are not followed like Nascar, Football, Basketball. They get small % of watchers. Just glad can watch world surfing tour another small % watched sport that like.


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## Bart.s

Last couple of years the more American sports like basketball, Nascar and Indy became somewhat easier to watch in Europe. But very small % of watchers, as soccer and F1 are more popular here. But I do watch the big races like the Indy 500. Too bad Alonso didn't do so well at the Indy. Don't think he'll be racing it this year, as he now races for Alpine F1.


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## Jaszer13

I think most people here know, I work for Honda F1.


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## Corradobrit1

Jaszer13 said:


> I think most people here know, I work for Honda F1.


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## Bart.s

Jaszer13 said:


> I think most people here know, I work for Honda F1.



Wow, serious?  Never would have imagined that on this forum. I'd love to hear some more about your job and the engine. Don't spare me any boring detail .


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## Jaszer13

Bart.s said:


> Wow, serious?  Never would have imagined that on this forum. I'd love to hear some more about your job and the engine. Don't spare me any boring detail .



Unfortunately due to NDA's we can't say much. But in my department we handle intercompany technology transfer between HRD-MK, HRD, HPD, AMS and AHM/HM.

Basically we make sure that all that we learn from either simulation or actual test data are shared across F1, INDYCAR, IMSA, SCORE, WEC, MOTOGP/X and finally Production.


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## Bart.s

Jaszer13 said:


> Unfortunately due to NDA's we can't say much.



Thought as much, but you can't blame a guy for trying, right?  

But could you tell me something about the future of Honda in racing in general? They seem to leave F1 in favor for more hybrid/electric engines. Will this be true for more racing categories?


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## Jaszer13

Bart.s said:


> Thought as much, but you can't blame a guy for trying, right?
> 
> But could you tell me something about the future of Honda in racing in general? They seem to leave F1 in favor for more hybrid/electric engines. Will this be true for more racing categories?



The issue with F1 isn't really the Engine emissions it's the carbon emissions that's produced while participating in the sport. Boats full of cargo, jets full of cargo, non-stop 24 hour Dyno's running, WindTunnel Testing... I mean the list goes on. Honda is very cautious of respecting the world and being a company that civilization wants to exist.

We made a goal many years ago to aim to be carbon-free and collision-free (you can read more about it by searching Honda 2030 vision). Unfortunately F1 is a big part of what would be considered "unnecessary emissions".

Believe me... we all feel the pain. We love racing. It's in our DNA and to compete and win at the highest level after so many years is a truly proud feeling.

We currently have plans to continue in INDYCAR for the foreseeable future and we have recently announced that we will race in the new LMDh series in IMSA with Acura Motorsports.


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## Bart.s

I can imagine that you feel the pain, Honda is a company with a rich racing history. But I hope that Honda, RB and Max can keep it going this season and who knows, perhaps even win the championship. Would be a beautiful end for Honda. While I also think it's a pity that Honda stops, I can appreciate that, as a company, they take a stand and sticking with it.

But going into 2022, is that really the end or will you guys stick around somewhat as advisors to Red Bull?


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## Jaszer13

Bart.s said:


> I can imagine that you feel the pain, Honda is a company with a rich racing history. But I hope that Honda, RB and Max can keep it going this season and who knows, perhaps even win the championship. Would be a beautiful end for Honda. While I also think it's a pity that Honda stops, I can appreciate that, as a company, they take a stand and sticking with it.
> 
> But going into 2022, is that really the end or will you guys stick around somewhat as advisors to Red Bull?



Unfortunately I am not authorized to discuss such matters as things are still very fluid. We are currently working on a full withdrawal by the end of the season.

I know a lot of us are discussing our options with Honda post F1 departure and there's plenty of possibilities for staff to move to RB and other racing programs within Honda. So some faces in the paddock may not change... just the name on the paycheck.


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## Bart.s

Jaszer13 said:


> Unfortunately I am not authorized to discuss such matters as things are still very fluid. We are currently working on a full withdrawal by the end of the season.
> 
> I know a lot of us are discussing our options with Honda post F1 departure and there's plenty of possibilities for staff to move to RB and other racing programs within Honda. So some faces in the paddock may not change... just the name on the paycheck.



I can image that it will be an insecure time for you guys. I really hope some of you guys will stick around in F1 or other racing categories. It would be a shame to lose such talent and know-how.

What Honda has achieved in F1 since 2015 is really quite remarkable. I'd have to admit, when RB made the switch to Honda engines I was a bit skeptical at first. But the progress you have made the last couple of years, I take my hat off for you guys!

I've been a F1 (Max and RB) fan for some time, really cool to be able to talk to someone who is a part of it. If there are things in the future that you are allowed to share, I would love to hear them!


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## Keith Sinclair

Soichiro Honda is in automotive hall of fame.
One of the best starting off putting small motors on bicycles. The rest is history. 

My first Japanese bike was a Honda CL 350 Scrambler. Had upswept pipes, blue paint early 1970's.

It was more of a road bike too heavy for true off 
road. I sold my now classic 441 BSA Victor to get it. It was a good bike & had electric start.
Looked cool & reliable.

When I was able to get a Honda CB 750 at a good price used got it. Motorcycle bliss.
Both the 350 & especially the CB 750 are classics. Many have been modified stripped down popular as cafe racers.

My last bike was a Kawasaki 650 R ninja. water cooled, 3/4 faired twin. Thin light standard position handle bars for older folks another very nice Japanese bike.

Had a Vtec Honda car put coilovers racing brace, short shifter on the 5 speed manual.

I'm new to modern F1 have been reading quite a bit this week. When Ferrari put paddle shifters
on its cars was much faster than a stick. Computers may not be good enough to make it full automatic in demanding racing conditions.
Even if it can racers are driving the car by active
feel shifting with paddles. 

I hope F1 can get more popular in US. They spend a lot of money to keep those cars going.


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## SeattleB

Bart.s said:


> What Honda has achieved in F1 since 2015 is really quite remarkable. I'd have to admit, when RB made the switch to Honda engines I was a bit skeptical at first. But the progress you have made the last couple of years, I take my hat off for you guys!



Ever since the Honda 250 MotoGP bike in the 1960s, the world has learned never to underestimate the engineering prowess of Honda.


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## Keith Sinclair

Yeh when found out this is Honda's last year after so many years of engine excellence.

Know very little of modern F1, but can't help but root for Honda to win in it's last year. Looks like Max has best chance to break the Hamilton Mercedes dominance.


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## Jaszer13

Bart.s said:


> I can image that it will be an insecure time for you guys. I really hope some of you guys will stick around in F1 or other racing categories. It would be a shame to lose such talent and know-how.
> 
> What Honda has achieved in F1 since 2015 is really quite remarkable. I'd have to admit, when RB made the switch to Honda engines I was a bit skeptical at first. But the progress you have made the last couple of years, I take my hat off for you guys!
> 
> I've been a F1 (Max and RB) fan for some time, really cool to be able to talk to someone who is a part of it. If there are things in the future that you are allowed to share, I would love to hear them!



I've been with Honda for about 10 years now and integrated in engine development since the inception of an F1 return. Reality is that due to the lack of on-track testing allowed by F1 its utterly impossible to enter the series with a rocket ship. 

I too think that the amount of time it took us to get to the "top" was pretty accelerated compared to the competition. 

If I would've done anything different, it would be to delay the program a year. Unfortunately we couldn't get much data the first year of competition due to the DNF's. If only we would've waited another year, I think we would've had a better shot at developing something better. But as I said before, on-track testing is key to a healthy development and well... you can only get so much out of simulation.


----------



## lemeneid

Honda is probably the only Japanese production car that has a great engine, or a GTR or WRX STI.

F1 ia a joke now IMO, if anyone thinks ESL is rigged towards richclubs, the situation in F1 is worse.


----------



## Bart.s

Jaszer13 said:


> If only we would've waited another year, I think we would've had a better shot at developing something better.



If my memory serves right, wasn't it Honda's plan to wait a year and keep developing and Mclaren pushed for a year earlier? 

And that Mclaren was really difficult to deal with in terms of available space in the chassis/body for the engine and components?



lemeneid said:


> F1 ia a joke now IMO, if anyone thinks ESL is rigged towards richclubs, the situation in F1 is worse.



While it is true that if a team has a lot of money to burn, they are more likely to win, as in many other sports. Ofcourse, there was a huge budget gap between teams. This year however, there is a budget cap for all teams to promote a level playingfield, which I think is a step in the right direction.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Honda was a motorcycle co. that produced first two cars for Japanese market in 1963. T360
was a mini truck & S500 a sports car.

That same year 1963 Jim Clark WON 7 grand prix races dominated the field winning the world championship in the Lotus 25.

Honda could see that the Lotus was a game changer. So the next year 1964 he entered his race car to F1. Like Lotus monocoque chassis,
Double wishbone suspension front & rear.

Lotus & Ferrari were running 1.5L 8 cylinder engines. Honda had 1.5L transverse mounted
V12.

First year didn't win any races learning on the fast track. 1965 entered the second car RA272 
It won the Mexican grand prix with American driver. It is my only Honda diecast. Later John Surtees 4 time 500cc world motorcycle champion drove for Lotus, Ferrari, & later the Honda 3L F1 had quite a few victories.


----------



## Koop

Last year I saw a couple of awesome F1 cars at the Phoenix Museum of Art Legends of Speed exhibit.

Dan Gurney's All-American Eagle - Westlake





Jimmy Clark's Lotus - this was his Indy 500 car, not F1




Mario Andretti's John Player Special Lotus


----------



## Keith Sinclair

That's cool is that Legends of Speed a on going 
exhibit? That's what got me into vintage 1/18 F1 race cars. A museum in Vegas. The Lotus 25
Blew me away.


----------



## Koop

Keith Sinclair said:


> That's cool is that Legends of Speed a on going
> exhibit? That's what got me into vintage 1/18 F1 race cars. A museum in Vegas. The Lotus 25
> Blew me away.


No, it was only for a few months last year. They had a bunch of cool cars.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Yeh can see some cool cars in background,
mechanical art.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Portugal this weekend F1 grand prix & World Surf League kicks of the men & woman's season in good surf at Margarite River Pro
Down Under.


----------



## Bart.s

Keith Sinclair said:


> Portugal this weekend F1 grand prix & World Surf League kicks of the men & woman's season in good surf at Margarite River Pro
> Down Under.



Max finished second in both practice runs, very close after a Mercedes. Can't wait to see what he does in the qualification.


----------



## SeattleB

A question for you, Jaszer13. Mechanics argue about tool brands the way this forum discusses knives. What is popular in F1 these days? Do the teams all have tool sponsors? That doesn't seem as common as the old days of bright orange Beta cars. Do the teams buy their own tools now? Or do the technicians supply their own? And what brand(s) is popular?


----------



## Jaszer13

SeattleB said:


> A question for you, Jaszer13. Mechanics argue about tool brands the way this forum discusses knives. What is popular in F1 these days? Do the teams all have tool sponsors? That doesn't seem as common as the old days of bright orange Beta cars. Do the teams buy their own tools now? Or do the technicians supply their own? And what brand(s) is popular?



Good question and as odd as this may sound. There are no free tools in F1. We receive discounts from all of the tool manufacturers and sometimes receive free tools when we collaborate on themed kits, but we go through so many of them that by the time the season is over we have almost every brand in the tool kit. 

It's also worth noting that we all have our own preferred tools. In Honda US we use Snap-on. Honda JP uses mostly Kyoto, Redbull uses Wera.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Looking forward to street racing at Monaco.
Lando Norris been driving good see if he can move up.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Keith Sinclair said:


> Looking forward to street racing at Monaco.
> Lando Norris been driving good see if he can move up.


He better do it in Quali as overtaking on that course is limited to say the least


----------



## Bart.s

I'll also be watching, but can't say I'm a fan of the Monaco circuit. The race most often than not ends up being a parade. 

It is so narrow that overtaking is next to impossible, so everything is won and lost at the quali or pitstop. There are no runoffs, so 1 mistake and you're done. 

But do hope that Max will win it, just to keep the championship exciting


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> Looking forward to street racing at Monaco.
> Lando Norris been driving good see if he can move up.



Monaco is one of my favourites,,, although it can sometimes be a "parade". The race is often "won" in quali.

Look out for an early safety car. Turn 1 should be "hairy" if both Max and Lewis start on the front row, and at the back-end, a lot of the new drivers who haven't raced here before, will be hard pressed to make it beyond lap 1. An early crash could force a re-start, and that could really upset things in a hurry.

Lando's team-mate (Danny Ricciardo) has won here before. Max's best finish was 4th.(P2, and a penalty knocked him down to 4th)

I'm hoping Leclerc can do well in his "home" race. I'd like to see Ferrari starting to score podiums this year. Only 5 points separating McLaren and Ferrari.

I'd also like to see Checo doing well in this one. He's got the car, and the experience. It'll be interesting to see how the old-guard fare as well,,, Fernando, Kimi, and Seb.

Monaco is "Camelot",,,,, *Lights Out,,,,go,go.go.go,GO!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Koop

Early safety car as Mazepin is sure to put it into the barriers.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

What do I know just like it because was in Grand Prix movie that came out in 1966 filmed in 1965 season. One of best racing films of all time.

Yeh Max was leading the whole race in Spain.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Koop said:


> Early safety car as Mazepin is sure to put it into the barriers.



I'll be surprised if he even makes it to the race starting grid. (107% rule in quali)


----------



## Bart.s

Keith Sinclair said:


> What do I know just like it because was in Grand Prix movie that came out in 1966 filmed in 1965 season. One of best racing films of all time.



The circuit itself is really quite beautiful and I also like the layout. It's also one of the most demanding circuits for the drivers, as you have zero margin for error.

I just think it's too narrow for modern F1 cars. Overtaking is very difficult here. Only place really is at the end of the tunnel, before the chicane. But if you have a driver in front of you who knows what he's doing, even there it's difficult. Sure, you could try to overtake on other parts of the circuit, but it usually ends up in tears (just look at Leclerc 2019).

Also, there is no rain forecast. The Monaco F1 2016 was one I did enjoy .


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> The circuit itself is really quite beautiful .



Yes,,,, EVERYTHING is beautiful there,,,,, especially the Casino showgirls who go to work on their,,,, ahem,,,, "even sun tan" at the beach ("Promenade des Anglais").


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bummer; Looks like TSN is not carrying Friday practice (FP2). They will be carrying quali as usual, as well as the race on Sunday.

Thursday practice saw Tsunoda and Schumacher kissing the ARMCO,,, and Ferrari were 1 and 2 in the afternoon session, with Leclerc leading Sainz.

Check out Leclerc's lap here,,, I think I'd need to be wearing several pairs of Depends if I were a passenger.








WATCH: Ride onboard with Ferrari's Charles Leclerc for the fastest lap of day one in Monaco


He had a miserable first practice session, thanks to a gearbox issue, but home favourite Charles Leclerc ended the first day of action in Monaco in style by going fastest of all in FP2.




www.formula1.com


----------



## Bart.s

Bobby2shots said:


> Bummer; Looks like TSN is not carrying Friday practice (FP2). They will be carrying quali as usual, as well as the race on Sunday.



Both FP1 and FP2 were on thursday, FP3 is on saturday, so no friday practice this weekend .

Hope Leclerc will do well this weekend, as he is yet to finish his home race. (Well, technically it's a home race for several drivers, as a lot of them live there)

A fast onboard in monaco is really hypnotizing. I'd also be sh****ng myself .


----------



## Bobby2shots

Leclerc has a new name;,,,,Charles *L‘Eclair *(Charles lightning).

re "the accident", let's hope his gearbox survived the crash, otherwise he'll start P6 (5 place grid penalty for gearbox change)

Anybody watch the slo-mo of that crash???? It almost looks like he deliberately steered VERY sharply into the armco, taking out his right front, and ending the session prematurely with seconds to go, and no chance for a session restart, cementing his pole position. At the moment of impact, Max was on his flying lap, and was already fastest in sectors 1 and 2. Hmmmm. I've not seen any sign that the stewards are looking at it, but this could be interesting. I'd hate to be the steward who decides against Charles in his hometown race.


----------



## Bart.s

I hope Leclerc has more honour than that, but I had memories of '06 all over again  :



I don't know where the Ferrari's suddenly got their pace, but they were fast. Max also was fast, and it isn't Hamilton's weekend, could get very interesting for the championship.

I was however disappointed in Ricciardo. He usually does very well at monaco, but didn't reach Q3. I really hope he does well tomorrow.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Well Bart you can eat your popcorn now. Max won his first Monaco. Good to see Lando Norris make the podium.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Keith Sinclair said:


> Max won his first Monaco.


And leading the championship. 
Bottas just can't catch a break. Vote for Mclaren best looking car on the grid.


----------



## Bart.s

Championship


Keith Sinclair said:


> Well Bart you can eat your popcorn now. Max won his first Monaco



Yeah, it was a pretty uneventful race for him. Now 4 points ahead of Hamilton. A weekend to quickly forget for Mercedes. Norris also a good race, now 3th in the championship. And indeed, those Mclarens looked beautiful.

Too bad for Leclerc though, again a DNF in his hometown. That's 3 in a row now for him. 

Next race also a streetcircuit, Baku.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I kind of got the feeling with the larger F1 cars in a place like Monaco it is a challenge to race 
those laps with out crashing into something other than a car. At least with the protruding down force front sections. Are they called wings? 

I saw somewhere on line a overhead picture of the red bull Honda next to the 1.5L Honda RA 272 from 1965. It looked tiny next to Red Bull.
It is much wider of coarse, but longer too.

Harder to navigate at speed in tight street conditions.


----------



## Bart.s

Keith Sinclair said:


> I kind of got the feeling with the larger F1 cars in a place like Monaco it is a challenge to race
> those laps with out crashing into something other than a car. At least with the protruding down force front sections. Are they called wings?
> 
> I saw somewhere on line a overhead picture of the red bull Honda next to the 1.5L Honda RA 272 from 1965. It looked tiny next to Red Bull.
> It is much wider of coarse, but longer too.
> 
> Harder to navigate at speed in tight street conditions.



Yes, they are called front wings. The width of a modern F1 car is 2m, where the Honda RA 272 was about 1.6m.

That makes narrow streetcircuits like Monaco indeed difficult to race, as overtaking is difficult, so no real action on the track. That's why the quali and pitstops are so important there, and if nothing happens, the startgrit is more or less how the race will end.

EDIT: here is a page with max driving the Honda RA272 and you can see them side by side. Big difference indeed.








A Taste Of Honda's History


Ahead of the Japanese Grand Prix, Max got a taste of Honda’s racing history and the golden age of Formula One as he got behind the wheel of the Japanese manufacturer’s first Grand Prix winner.




www.redbull.com


----------



## MarcelNL

The excitement of the races is something of the past on most current tracks IMO.
I've driven some pretty fast cars but a passenger ride in an F1 car is the 2nd on my thrillseekers list, a night cat shot from an air craft carrier is nr 1  , flying a wingsuit at low altitude nr 3...probably that F1 co-ride is the most feasible one.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Yes the modern car is much safer than in 60's.
Max mentioned didn't have seat belts.

In movie Gran Prix Blu ray special features interviewed old race drivers like sterling Moss.

He said that if you crashed it was a 50/50 chance the car would blow up in fire. That's why didn't like seat belts better to be tossed from the car you might survive.


----------



## Bart.s

MarcelNL said:


> I've driven some pretty fast cars but a passenger ride in an F1 car is the 2nd on my thrillseekers list, a night cat shot from an air craft carrier is nr 1  , flying a wingsuit at low altitude nr 3...probably that F1 co-ride is the most feasible one.



I think there are some companies at Zandvoort who offer rides in duo f1 cars.


----------



## Bart.s

Keith Sinclair said:


> He said that if you crashed it was a 50/50 chance the car would blow up in fire. That's why didn't like seat belts better to be tossed from the car you might survive.



Haha nice quote from Sterling Moss. Different era, and F1 has come a long way. Just look at the crash of Grosjean last year. He wouldn't have survived it if it was in the 60's.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Proximity wing suit flying has a high death rate
compared to other sports. I got hooked into watching utubes imagining what that must feel like.


----------



## MarcelNL

yeah, live life dangerously and all that..I must have been borne with a low blood pressure together with little patience, which makes it a very tedious thing to engulf myself in the learning process for wingsuit flying that probably takes hundreds of hours to master well enough to fly downhill in mountains without adding to the statistics immediately.

the YT footage is awesome, I watched some 4K stuff that was dazzling


F1 rides in older two seat cars are manageable, probably a reason not to pursue it too hard...that cat shot is nr 1


----------



## Keith Sinclair

They have a trainer version of the Soviet Mig 15
Thought to be the most produced jet. 13,000 & 
built elsewhere as much as 18,000 total.

Near end of war Germans made wind tunnel .model of Fock Wolf jet to succeed Me 262.
The Russians got all that & some German scientist just like the US did. The Mig 15 looks a lot like that German model. Right after war Rolls Royce had best turbo jet engine. Russians went to England bought a jet engine copied & manufactured it.

Operational 1949. In Korea the little swept wing fighter was shooting down B29 bombers
& straight wing American jet fighters.

Americans brought in F86 swept wing that dominated after that.

Aviation Museum at Pearl Harbor has F86 & 
Mig 15. The Mig is smaller like a little sports car.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Thumbs up for McLaren's livery,,, superb job from Lando. Outstanding performance from Sainz as well. Very happy that Seb got "Driver of the Day", and Checo also had a VERY strong showing. As for Gasly, he's been consistently better than his car.

and now,,,, for something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT (as Monty Python would say),,,,What the heck is up with Mercedes and their pit strategy? (and I'm not talking about Valteri's pit stop). They attempt to pull an "undercut" with Lewis at lap 30 in a 78 lap race ????????????? WTFWT??????? Lewis lost 2 positions to Seb and Gasly due to that "brain-storm". Even if that undercut had worked,,, it would have pretty well guaranteed the Lewis would have to pit again before race end.

Max deservedly 'won" that race,,,, but I wouldn't call it a "victory" when the cars that should have started in front, as well as the car behind are DNF's.

So now we wait to see what happens to 'Limbo Wing". Baku has one of the longest straights in F1, and if Red Bull are forced to withdraw their design, I presume Mercedes will once again dominate.

Ferrari's "faux pas" regarding Leclerc's gearbox is completely inexcusable. They performed a WHAT??? (visual check of the gear box itself) and not the driveshaft??????? Was the fear of losing pole position to a 5-place grid penalty worth hiding their head in the sand and "not taking necessary precautions", especially when drive-train issues are such a well known consequence with a side-impact like Leclerc had suffered in quali????

I thought today's race "sucked". Thank God Mickelson cheered me up. Goooo Lefty!!!! (oldest player ever to win a major PGA tournament,,,,50 years,11 months, 8 days


----------



## DrEriksson

@Bobby2shots It did seem like the problem for Hamilton was a slow out lap and not being able to get the tires working. The teams and Pirelli seemed to not be concerned about tire wear and a long stint. Due to difficulties of overtaking, some degradation towards the end might not have made a big difference.


----------



## Bobby2shots

DrEriksson said:


> @Bobby2shots It did seem like the problem for Hamilton was a slow out lap and not being able to get the tires working. The teams and Pirelli seemed to not be concerned about tire wear and a long stint. Due to difficulties of overtaking, some degradation towards the end might not have made a big difference.



Yes, they said the tires were not up to working temperature,,, but Good God,,,,, have they not figured out by now that this is usually the case when coming out of the pits? They took a chance, and the outcome was predictable, with a margin of risk, and ultimately a fail. I just find that all too often, Mercedes non-driver strategists decide what's best for Lewis, without allowing Lewis the leeway to decide. Lewis was NOT happy, and there was a lot of chatter over team radio, but I couldn't really make out what Lewis was saying. Surely they were not expecting to put Lewis on the podium,,,when Lewis boxed, he was running 7th I believe. They must have been expecting an undercut, and they got outfoxed by an overcut. Seb and Gasly were on softs at that point. and Lewis came out on cold hard tires.

I realize that Monaco is the shortest track on the calender, and that tires can last the race with a wide margin for tire change, but the way I see it, it's not solely a question of how long a tire lasts, but rather, what condition your tires are in, relative to your opponent at a given point in the race. There was no questioning that Lewis would have to finish the race on those slower hard tires,,,, with 48 laps to go.










2021 Monaco Grand Prix: Hamilton rages at Mercedes engineers over lost places


Lewis Hamilton criticises his Mercedes engineers after losing places to Aston Martin’s Sebastian Vettel and Red Bull’s Sergio Pérez after the first round of pit stops at the 2021 Formula 1 Monaco Grand Prix.




www.formula1.com


----------



## DrEriksson

@Bobby2shots 

We're in agreement. I think it was strange they didn't have that data. Clearly they had some issues. Perhaps slow speed and not generating enough downforce, who knows? But looking at earlier sessions last week, they should've factored that into the undercut strategy. 

It seems like a fun season though. I've not followed as closely for a few years. Started watching about 20 years ago, but recently the excitement has wore off. But this season is shaping up and it's cool with Hamilton approaching 100/100.


----------



## Bart.s

I've found this mini serie on youtube of Guy Martin, training and doing a pitstop with the Williams F1 crew. It's amazing how much time, money and effort goes in those 2 seconds. Some nice behind the scene footage and shows how much of a team effort F1 really is. Enjoy!

Video 1:


Video 2:


Video 3:


Video 4:


Video 5:


Video 6:
Guy's Race Pit Stop During The Belgian GP | Guy Martin Proper


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I watched some of this a week ago. Could not 
believe how fast the pit stops in modern F1 so 
researched it. Amazing the teamwork.


----------



## Bart.s

Fastest pitstop ever, RB, 2019 Brazilian GP, Max Verstappen, 1.82sec


----------



## Keith Sinclair

What a race. Max with another victory blows out a tire. Then Hamilton burns up his brakes on restart. I ran out of time on recording because of long delay. 

That track puts tires under stress at least you could see the cars going flat out on long straight. 

I was sorry to see Max out of the race the leaders were taking a gamble because only pit stop was early in the race. At least Hamilton went out too. Lot of races to go long season.

I used to be pretty good at geography. Somehow couldn't place Azerbaijan. The buildings & castles placed into ages long past.

Looked it up & read about it. Part of old Persian empire. Invaded by Russians in 1920 for it's oil
and gas. I knew it must've been one of those Soviet bloc countries.


----------



## Koop

Keith Sinclair said:


> What a race. Max with another victory blows out a tire. Then Hamilton burns up his brakes on restart. I ran out of time on recording because of long delay.
> 
> That track puts tires under stress at least you could see the cars going flat out on long straight.
> 
> I was sorry to see Max out of the race the leaders were taking a gamble because only pit stop was early in the race. At least Hamilton went out too. Lot of races to go long season.
> 
> I used to be pretty good at geography. Somehow couldn't place Azerbaijan. The buildings & castles placed into ages long past.
> 
> Looked it up & read about it. Part of old Persian empire. Invaded by Russians in 1920 for it's oil
> and gas. I knew it must've been one of those Soviet bloc countries.



Messages like this should be prefaced with "Spoiler Alert!" Luckily I had already watched the race.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> I used to be pretty good at geography. Somehow couldn't place Azerbaijan. The buildings & castles placed into ages long past.



Baku is just north of Iran, on the Caspian sea, where the world's best caviar can be found. It's situated 92 feet below sea level, and is over 5,500 years old.


----------



## Bobby2shots

I'm so happy for Checo,,,, absolutely wonderful drive,,,, and what a comeback for Seb. I believe he was voted "Driver of the Day". Pierre Gasly outdrove his car once again,,,,,,, and although Ferrari weren't very lucky today, they were MUCH stronger than their results would indicate. They'll be a force at the next GP.... 3 weekends-in-a-row coming shortly, the French GP, then back-to-back races in Austria.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Koop said:


> Messages like this should be prefaced with "Spoiler Alert!" Luckily I had already watched the race.



Out in middle of Pacific I'm the last to see it.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Good race you can see how the Honda engine has caught up with Mercedes. It seems to have very slight edge in flat out straights.

Max drove a good race, Norris too I thought he might make podium again from way back. Just missed it.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Toto's gotta go.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

With Ferrari & now Mercedes domination. It's good to see Honda winning in it's last year of F1. Two Red bull Hondas on podium today.

Deff. Biased love Honda as a motor company.
Cars & Motorcycles. Even have a Honda lawn mower. I turn off the gas supply when almost finished to run it dry. Use special gas a station in Kalihi carries it because yard workers buy it.


----------



## Jovidah

I don't think Honda has necessarily caught up. Red Bull was just driving with less wing to compensate for the lower output. Hamilton was also talking nonsense about losing time on the straights; they were losing time in the corners... at the straights they were still keeping up just fine - with more wing than the RBs.

I don't know why Toto should go? Sure, Mercedes made a bad call on the strategy this race, and it looks like they're slowly losing their dominance, but that doesn't mean he's doing a bad job. It's not like the team has devolved into a total joke of utter incompetence like Ferrari...


----------



## Bart.s

Was a nice race, exciting till the end. I must admit, didn't expect RB to win. Last 2 races were street circuits with little rubber on the track and Mercedes were obviously struggling with those conditions. Racing on a racingtrack, I thought Mercedes would have the upper hand again. But RB pulled of a brilliant strategy, copying Mercedes in Barcelona.

Too bad for Ferrari. They've had 2 good last races, but being on racetracks again, they just can't keep up. Going to be a long season for them.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

At least Mercedes has some competition. That's a good thing. Seems they have total domination in the 1.6L hybrid stage of F1.

Max made mistake first part of race giving Hamilton chance to take the lead. His exit from the pits was good & with new tires did what he had to & got his victory. After last circuit with the race all but won he blew a worn tire. Still his team mate won with a Honda. 

Plenty Season left we will see if Honda can finally give Mercedes a run for the money.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> With Ferrari & now Mercedes domination. It's good to see Honda winning in it's last year of F1. Two Red bull Hondas on podium today.
> 
> Deff. Biased love Honda as a motor company.
> Cars & Motorcycles. Even have a Honda lawn mower. I turn off the gas supply when almost finished to run it dry. Use special gas a station in Kalihi carries it because yard workers buy it.



Honda motors seem bullet-proof. My last 6 cars have been Honda's (2 Acura Legends and 4 Acura RL's). I've got two Honda snowblowers that always start on the first pull, regardless of how cold it is, and several of my lawnmowers have Honda engines. You can't kill these things.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Jovidah said:


> I don't know why Toto should go? Sure, Mercedes made a bad call on the strategy this race, and it looks like they're slowly losing their dominance, but that doesn't mean he's doing a bad job. It's not like the team has devolved into a total joke of utter incompetence like Ferrari...



Mercedes,,, like recent Ferrari, just don't listen to their drivers. Toto really didn't "develop" the 2021 car, concentrating the development budget to the 2022 car instead. There's a lot of personnel changes going on for next year,,, including James Allison, their chief technical director, leaving the team. The mindset in the garage appears to be "*we know better than the drivers*". Mercedes sucks at strategy.


----------



## Bart.s

Bobby2shots said:


> including James Allison, their chief technical director, leaving the team.



Haven't heard that he was leaving the team. Last thing I've heard he was being promoted to chief technical officer and that Mike Elliot was becoming the new technical director, but I could be wrong.

I do know that Bottas is going to be replaced in favor for Russell. Bottas doesn't seem to be happy at Mercedes anymore.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> Haven't heard that he was leaving the team. Last thing I've heard he was being promoted to chief technical officer and that Mike Elliot was becoming the new technical director, but I could be wrong.
> 
> I do know that Bottas is going to be replaced in favor for Russell. Bottas doesn't seem to be happy at Mercedes anymore.



Hi Bart.s, you're correct,,,, partly (mind you, it is I who may be wrong here). You're correct about Elliot replacing Allison with the Mercedes F-1 racing team,,, but from what I read, or have heard in interviews, Allison is being promoted to Chief Technical Officer for Mercedes the "company" (not specifically the F-1 team.) It's my understanding though, that the AMG Petronas Mercedes F-1 team falls under that umbrella, although he won't be directly involved. 

I recently saw an interview with Toto,,, maybe after Baku??? where Toto appeared to be uncertain where the not too distant future leads for him. I got the distinct impression he was about to announce an imminent departure from F-1.

As for Valtteri, I wouldn't be surprised if he retires, and frankly, I don't blame him. When I see how the drivers are treated lately, I get flashbacks of 2016 when Lewis's car mysteriously developed "reliability issues", race after race, and Nico, whose car became somehow "totally reliable", won the championship. If you remember that 2016 period, Lewis felt that someone in the team was directly involved in scuttling his races. At that time, Toto had given Lewis's mechanics to Nico,,,, and Nico's mechanics to Lewis. Apparently, Toto likes to shuffle the personnel periodically, which in his view, gives broader experience to those involved. But,,,,,, what a helluva time to do that this year, when he also decided to channel development money away from the 2021 car and dedicate it to the 2022 car. Hmmmm.

Something's in the works, but I'm not too sure what that is at this point. Lewis only signed 'til the end of this season, so we should know soon enough. How many times this season have we seen Lewis being told to pit, when he clearly disagrees with the call. The pit wall doesn't seem to ask for, or consider driver input, and using that info as the determinant factor for proceeding with the call,,,, ill-timed undercuts,,, overcuts,,, wheel-nut issues, one-dimensional strategy considerations, etc. 

As for Valtteri, I hope he's not "muzzled" by the team for his team-radio pit-strategy outburst..... but sadly, he probably will be.


----------



## Bart.s

I do remember the 2016 season and that the mechanics were switched between Lewis and Nico. I still think it's a strange move and not something you hear about in other teams. Lewis didn't say much about it, but if I remember correctly, he was going to write a book when he retires and tell more about it. 

There are so much politics involved within F1, and what we are hearing is probably only the tip of the iceberg. Has been this way for a long time. With F1 teams being worth hunderds of millions, I'll guess there is just too much money involved not to.

As for the mistakes this season from Mercedes, my theory is that they have became a victim of their own succes. When you are that dominant for years, winning races so easily with no real external challenge, I think they have become somewhat complacent. They didn't have to push their limits last couple of years. And now, with RB and Max in hot pursuit, everything has to be ramped up to the limits. I think this is why you see both driver and team making mistakes.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> I do remember the 2016 season and that the mechanics were switched between Lewis and Nico. I still think it's a strange move and not something you hear about in other teams. Lewis didn't say much about it, but if I remember correctly, he was going to write a book when he retires and tell more about it.
> 
> There are so much politics involved within F1, and what we are hearing is probably only the tip of the iceberg. Has been this way for a long time. With F1 teams being worth hunderds of millions, I'll guess there is just too much money involved not to.
> 
> As for the mistakes this season from Mercedes, my theory is that they have became a victim of their own succes. When you are that dominant for years, winning races so easily with no real external challenge, I think they have become somewhat complacent. They didn't have to push their limits last couple of years. And now, with RB and Max in hot pursuit, everything has to be ramped up to the limits. I think this is why you see both driver and team making mistakes.



Well said.

And, to give Red Bull their due,,, their "Limbo Wing" was a stroke of genius from Adrian. Their speed on the straights has improved significantly. They just never give up on finding even the most miniscule improvements. I also think Christian Horner is without a doubt, the finest team principal in the business. He's supportive of his staff and drivers, and comes off as being less of a control-freak than Toto. He's a superb communicator, and has the knack for extracting excellence from all his personnel.


----------



## Bart.s

I've always liked Red Bull as a team. One of the few teams that gives young drivers, that are not being backed by big money, a chance to F1 via their junior program/academy. This season, there are 6 drivers that have come to F1 via Red Bull, most of any team. They are, however, quick to change drivers if the results aren't there, but hey, it's F1, not kindergarten.

The Limbo wing is indeed genius. Mercedes was already complaining about it. Same story as DAS last year.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Lando Norris has a sense of humor. He said when he saw all those orange T shirts figured
they were rooting for him.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> Lando Norris has a sense of humor. He said when he saw all those orange T shirts figured
> they were rooting for him.



Yes,,, that was funny. Things is, many of those Max fans *were *rooting for Lando too. They cheered him enthusiastically on the podium. Even Fernando Alonso commented on how good a driver Lando is, as Lando was passing him. I was pulling for Lando all the way in that race. I believe he was also voted 'Driver of the Day", and that was despite a 5 second time penalty. Lando just seems to have so much fun out there, and he's immensely popular and liked among the other drivers.

On the other hand, I found the race to be a real yawner, and I hope we'll see some tighter competition in the next race at Silverstone. (July 18th). James Allison said that Mercedes has some "new parts" on the way.

I hope someone higher-up, has a talk with Michael Masi , the FIA race director, and I hope it'll be sooner than later. I thought the stewards were getting too hasty in dishing out some of the penalties. LET THEM RACE!!!!!! This is F-1,,,, not Miss Congeniality.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Yeh like him too. Thought all the Dutch fans were cheering him for knocking Hamilton off the podium.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Yes, Hamilton had aero issues after coming into heavy contact with the kerbs at corner 10 on lap 29. Hamilton said the loss of downforce was costing him half a second per lap, and Mercerdes trackside engineer Andrew Shovlin, said it was more like 6 to 7 tenths lost per lap.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

The fast way quotes get on line before the race
when he made the joke, the Dutch fans appreciated his humor. Gave him the greatest reception & esp. when he got driver of the day.


----------



## Bart.s

Keith Sinclair said:


> Lando Norris has a sense of humor. He said when he saw all those orange T shirts figured
> they were rooting for him.



Haha if you thought this was crazy, just wait for Zandvoort .

But again, Max drove into the sunset, even having time to pit again and still win with a 18 sec lead. Sure, the race was unenventful, but as a Max/RB fan I'll take it. 

Also really liked that Lando got to the podium, well deserved. I don't think he deserved that 5 second penalty however, just as Checo didn't deserve them. It's always a gamble taking the outside line, and when you are not past your opponent and he keeps his line, you know you are f***ed. Every driver would have kept his line. If a driver still wants to take the risk by going outside, it should be on them.


----------



## Jovidah

Perez is really underwhelming so far in my opinion. He just... keeps having these screwups, and has had so many dissapointing weekends so far, and often it was his own fault. Personally I'd really love to see Lando Norris taking the seat next to Verstappen; I think that would really be an awesome dream team.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Jovidah said:


> Perez is really underwhelming so far in my opinion. He just... keeps having these screwups, and has had so many dissapointing weekends so far, and often it was his own fault. Personally I'd really love to see Lando Norris taking the seat next to Verstappen; I think that would really be an awesome dream team.



I certainly wouldn't describe Perez's performance so far as "underwhelming",,, he's currently third in the driver's championship standings, behind Max and Lewis, and that's despite being new to the team, as well as the car. In 9 races so far this season, he's chalked up a win, two podiums, and finished 1 position off the podium in three races. Many drivers go their entire career without getting on the podium. I'd say Checo has adapted very quickly to his new team. When you factor in his role as supporting a Max win, it's all the more amazing.


----------



## Bobby2shots

One team that;s really going to make waves over the next little while, is Aston Martin. Lawrence Stroll seems to be pulling out all the stops in getting his team on the podium. They're opening a new factory shortly, and he's hiring some of the best engineers in the industry.


----------



## Jovidah

Bobby2shots said:


> I certainly wouldn't describe Perez's performance so far as "underwhelming",,, he's currently third in the driver's championship standings, behind Max and Lewis, and that's despite being new to the team, as well as the car. In 9 races so far this season, he's chalked up a win, two podiums, and finished 1 position off the podium in three races. Many drivers go their entire career without getting on the podium. I'd say Checo has adapted very quickly to his new team. When you factor in his role as supporting a Max win, it's all the more amazing.


There's some caveats to that though. His only win was due to a tire failure from Verstappen, and Bottas had bad luck several times where he had a DNF due to circumstances outside of his control (for example getting rammed off at Imola, and tire issues in some other race). Perez on the other hand has had several races where he lagged behind just like Albon did last season, and a few races already where he basically made himself irrelevant due to his own screwups (going wide in Imola knocking him down the pack, and now this race in Austria that was just one giant sequence of self-inflicted injuries). Especially last race really felt like... rookie mistakes from an eager new driver...except that he's not a rookie anymore.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Here's another perspective from the parts point of view. Max will get newly developed parts before Perez does.









TECH TUESDAY: The two key Red Bull upgrades that helped Verstappen pull even further ahead of Mercedes in the Austrian GP | Formula 1®


Max Verstappen's dominant display in the Austrian Grand Prix may have seemed like a repeat of his Styrian GP triumph, but his Red Bull RB16B was sporting a markedly different package last weekend to the weekend before. Mark Hughes explains what Red Bull brought to win the final race of F1's...




www.formula1.com


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I was reading about changes in F1 for 2022.
The front wing will be standard on all & body itself will be designed for greater down force.

My first year of watching modern F1. Plenty Season left. It has sparked my interest of learning about cars.


----------



## Bart.s

Have to say that i'm pleasantly surprised with the sprintrun format. Top 3 as expected, but some nice racing in the midfield.

If the 2022 aero regulations work as intended, it could be a great format.


----------



## Bobby2shots

I've got to agree 100%. The Sprint adds a whole n'other dimension. I wonder though, how Friday qualifying will impact fan attendance since most Fridays may not include a long holiday weekend with Fridays off. Looks like they may have to stay with the current format of only a few weekends with the quali/sprint/race format. I believe today was the first of three scheduled for this season.


----------



## Corradobrit1

I'm sure Perez isn't so chuffed with the new format


----------



## Bobby2shots

Corradobrit1 said:


> I'm sure Perez isn't so chuffed with the new format



Yeah, a little too quick on the throttle coming out of the corner. That said, I'd be willing to bet that even though he's starting from the rear, he at least finishes in the points,. Probably somewhere around P5, P6.

Because he's starting from the rear, I believe he also gets to set-up the car the way he likes, and choose whatever tire he wants. The rest have to go with the tires they used for setting their fastest lap in Q2. Mind you, that may depend on the new-format requirements.

Russel may also score a point or two,,,, a first for Williams in quite a while. He's starting P9 I believe, and seems to be VERY motivated.


----------



## Jovidah

Bobby2shots said:


> Yeah, a little too quick on the throttle coming out of the corner. That said, I'd be willing to bet that even though he's starting from the rear, he at least finishes in the points,. Probably somewhere around P5, P6.
> 
> Because he's starting from the rear, I believe he also gets to set-up the car the way he likes, and choose whatever tire he wants. The rest have to go with the tires they used for setting their fastest lap in Q2. Mind you, that may depend on the new-format requirements.
> 
> Russel may also score a point or two,,,, a first for Williams in quite a while. He's starting P9 I believe, and seems to be VERY motivated.


But because he's starting from the rear it's going to be another race where Verstappen is basically driving alone without any support, and where Mercedes can do what they want strategy-wise. Perez just keeps shooting himself in the foot. 

So far I'm not really sure what to think of the sprint race format. Admittedly, I never really watch qualifying because I always considered it kind of boring, but it just feels kind of weird how quickly they are already starting to determine the grid order - as starting position for the sprint race already largely determines where you're going to end up.


----------



## Bart.s

Yeah, Perez, rookie mistake, too hard on the throttle while in dirty air. Going to be Max vs 2 Mercs (again). But if he keeps his head cool and doesn't do anything rash he can still score some good points.

But did you see his re-entry to the track? Really too close for comfort with tsunoda .









Sergio Pérez spin onboard & very dangerous re-entry


Watch "Sergio Pérez spin onboard & very dangerous re-entry" on Streamable.




streamable.com


----------



## Bobby2shots

The big gainers from the Sprint, were Alonso and Raikkonen. They'll each move up 4 positions on the starting grid. Russel drops from 9th to 12th after being called to the stewards regarding contact with Sainz. 3 place penalty.


----------



## Bart.s

Yeah Alonso had a great start, passing 6 cars in 9 corners. 
The old dog still got it .


----------



## Koop

Bobby2shots said:


> Because he's starting from the rear, I believe he also gets to set-up the car the way he likes, and choose whatever tire he wants. The rest have to go with the tires they used for setting their fastest lap in Q2. Mind you, that may depend on the new-format requirements.



The cars have all been under parc ferme restrictions since the end of FP1, meaning the only set up changes allowed are wing angle adjustments - grid position doesn't change this. Under this weekend's format, everyone has a free tire choice to start the race on.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Hamilton "I always race fair", "I was ahead of Max", "I was alongside Max". My estimation of Hamilton has plummeted. Desperate measures calling for desperate actions. Only dirty tricks will beat Max and RB this season.


----------



## Koop

Hamilton said Max was aggressive and didn't leave him room. The replay shows otherwise - Max left more than a car width inside. Hamilton stuffed his car in an impossible position to overtake, he couldn't make the apex. He wasn't along side or his front wheel wouldn't have hit Max's right rear wheel. It's never Hamilton's fault in his mind.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

When Hamilton said Max was driving aggressive I had already seen start to contact
that sent Max into the wall several times even
in slow motion.

It was Hamilton from the start driving very aggressive trying to take lines to pass with no success until the crash.


----------



## Koop

Hamilton's line wasn't possible - he would run wide regardless. LeClerc took the proper line and immediately blew by Hamilton.

Hamilton's inability to acknowledge his mistakes is evidenced in Austria where he stated he didn't understand why he had an aerodynamic problem from floor damage. He said he didn't abuse curbs any more than any other drivers. The video shows clearly where Hamilton ran wide on turn 10, slamming the floor of his car and damaging the undertray. Toto Wolf even acknowledged the fact that the team knew when Hamilton damaged the car. But Hamilton said he did nothing wrong and didn't understand why he had trouble - he was tacitly blaming the car.

This has been Hamilton's response for years now - not my fault, I didn't do anything wrong. I lost all respect for him eight or nine years ago when he claimed he was being unfairly penalised because he was black.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Koop said:


> The cars have all been under parc ferme restrictions since the end of FP1, meaning the only set up changes allowed are wing angle adjustments - grid position doesn't change this. Under this weekend's format, everyone has a free tire choice to start the race on.



I believe the "free" tire choice was only for the Sprint, was it not?

Regarding Parc Ferme restrictions,,, a Sky Sports commentator stated that because Checo had not posted a time in that particular qualifying session. that his car could be set-up as he liked if he pitted and ended his session, and this is why Christian Horner told Checo to abort his quali lap. Checo could then start from pit-lane with mods, while those starting on the grid, had to adhere to Parc Ferme rules...
*.*


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> When Hamilton said Max was driving aggressive I had already seen start to contact
> that sent Max into the wall several times even
> in slow motion.
> 
> It was Hamilton from the start driving very aggressive trying to take lines to pass with no success until the crash.



Wheel-to-wheel racing,,,,, I LOVED it!!! Too bad it didn't last for the entire race. Surely, no-one would expect either of these two 'Alpha-Drivers' to back down.

Next race; Hungary,,,, then it's a 4-week summer break.


----------



## Koop

Bobby2shots said:


> I believe the "free" tire choice was only for the Sprint, was it not?
> 
> Regarding Parc Ferme restrictions,,, a Sky Sports commentator stated that because Checo had not posted a time in that particular qualifying session. that his car could be set-up as he liked if he pitted and ended his session, and this is why Christian Horner told Checo to abort his quali lap. Checo could then start from pit-lane with mods, while those starting on the grid, had to adhere to Parc Ferme rules...
> *.*



He was refering to the replacement of major parts with "like" parts - changing a transmission for example without penalty. No changes to the car set-up are allowed. Also, no restrictions under this format for starting tire choice. During the race each car had to use use two of three available tire compounds - that was not the case for the sprint.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Bobby2shots said:


> Surely, no-one would expect either of these two 'Alpha-Drivers' to back down.


The issue was the reckless nature of the passing moves in corners that are generally accepted as non passing ones like Copse, especially from behind. Guess Hamilton thought he knew better.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Corradobrit1 said:


> The issue was the reckless nature of the passing moves in corners that are generally accepted as non passing ones like Copse, especially from behind. Guess Hamilton thought he knew better.



Hamilton is a racer,,, not a doorman. It's not up to Hamilton to step aside and allow Max to waltz through. In replay after replay, including all the slow-mo analysis, you clearly see Max's hands turning into Lewis on that corner. In my opinion, this was clearly a racing incident.


----------



## Bart.s

I think the crash was inevitable and was simply a matter of where and when. Both drivers pushed hard, knowing the race would likely be decided in de opening fase.

Was a high risk move by Hamilton though. Ultra-fast corner where overtaking is rare. As the aggressor, I would say that Hamilton was more at fault, but both contributed to the crash. I'd also call it a racing incident.


----------



## Koop

What would you have Max do - go straight off the track? He was in a corner, of course his steering wheel moved. His line left more than car's width on the inside, but Hamilton was going way too fast to hold that line. Hamilton was the aggressor, he took an impossible entry to the corner. He couldn't properly apex the turn and running to edge of track through Max was inevitable. As I posted earlier, he wasn't alongside Max or his left front tire wouldn't have punted Max's right rear. It was Max's corner and boneheaded driving on Hamilton's part.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Bobby2shots said:


> waltz through???


Max was ahead and by some margin. Hamilton should never have been there in the first place. He came in too fast as evidenced by the massive punt he gave Max across the kitty litter and into the tyre barrier. That wasn't a glancing blow and was forceful enough to break Hamiltons rim.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Don't mind Hamilton from the start aggressively taking lines to pass Max. It makes for good racing. Better than pole position leading whole race.

Where I have problem is approaching at flat out
speed right hander Copse corner for Hamilton
to take inside at those speeds was dangerous to say the least. 

Hamilton then put blame on Max. It's not because I'm rooting for Max & Honda, even that have anything against Hamilton. But his actions
caused that accident.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Max could easily have taken that corner a LOT wider than he did, but,,,, he opted not to, and,,,,,,, at the same time he tried to close the door to a faster-moving Lewis. Slow-motion replays show Max turning hard-right for a moment, then sees Lewis is right there and does a quick correction left, then immediate hard-right. He assumed he'd shut the door on Lewis and, that Lewis would back out.

Lewis didn't "hit" Max,,,,, Max's tire contacts Lewis's tire and Max jumps and drove over the edge of Lewis's front wing.

You can see the slo-mo replay on Sky Sports if it's available in your area. The replay analysis is done by Karun Chandhok. The slo-mo view is a cockpit close-up, and shows what both drivers' hands were doing up to and at the point of impact.


----------



## Koop

Bobby2shots said:


> Max could easily have taken that corner a LOT wider than he did, but,,,, he opted not to, and,,,,,,, at the same time he tried to close the door to a faster-moving Lewis. Slow-motion replays show Max turning hard-right for a moment, then sees Lewis is there and does a quick correction left, then immediate hard-right. He assumed Lewis would back out.
> 
> Lewis didn't "hit" Max,,,,, Max's tire contacts Lewis's tire and Max jumps and drove over the edge of Lewis's front wing.



This is delusional. If you anything about racing lines, Hamilton had no chance of cleanly getting through Copse. If hadn't punted Max, he would have run wide.

I roadraced motorcycles for two decades - I know a bit about racing lines. I've been following Formula One since the 1960s. Argue all you want, the evidence is there refuting your satements.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Bobby2shots said:


> Max could easily have taken that corner a LOT wider than he did, but,,,, he opted not to, and,,,,,,, at the same time he tried to close the door to a faster-moving Lewis. Slow-motion replays show Max turning hard-right for a moment, then sees Lewis is right there and does a quick correction left, then immediate hard-right. He assumed he'd shut the door on Lewis and, that Lewis would back out.
> 
> Lewis didn't "hit" Max,,,,, Max's tire contacts Lewis's tire and Max jumps and drove over the edge of Lewis's front wing.
> 
> You can see the slo-mo replay on Sky Sports if it's available in your area. The replay analysis is done by Karun Chandhok. The slo-mo view is a cockpit close-up, and shows what both drivers' hands were doing up to and at the point of impact.


Clearly we were watching different races. The Stewards penalized Hamilton after examining the incident in minutia. Thats good enough for me and only confirmed my evaluation based on the numerous angles from broadcast, onboard and overhead shots.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Koop said:


> This is delusional. If you anything about racing lines, Hamilton had no chance of cleanly getting through Copse. If hadn't punted Max, he would have run wide.
> 
> I roadraced motorcycles for two decades - I know a bit about racing lines. I've been following Formula One since the 1960s. Argue all you want, the evidence is there refuting your satements.




Before the start of the season, all of the team principals met to discuss various racing scenarios, and how best to handle those. They unanimously agreed that the drivers should be allowed to race wheel-to-wheel, especially on the first lap, and very early laps, because the fans want a RACE,,,, not a parade.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Corradobrit1 said:


> Clearly we were watching different races. The Stewards penalized Hamilton after examining the incident in minutia. Thats good enough for me and only confirmed my evaluation based on the numerous angles from broadcast, onboard and overhead shots.



FIA race director Michael Masi said; the "outcome of an incident, can NOT be taken into consideration by the stewards,,, and, that the stewards can only determine "if" an infraction occurred", then penalize accordingly for that specific infraction". Had the stewards seen something that was in clear violation of the rules,,,, then they could even have disqualified Lewis. The stewards struggled with this one, and penalized Lewis strictly on a technicality. Otmar Szafnauer, team principal for Aston-Martin, called it a racing incident,,,, so did Jenson Button, Karun Chandhok, Damon Hill, Martin Brundle, and a few others.


----------



## Koop

Bobby2shots said:


> FIA race director Michael Masi said; the "outcome of an incident, can NOT be taken into consideration by the stewards,,, and, that the stewards can only determine "if" an infraction occurred", then penalize accordingly for that specific infraction". Had the stewards seen something that was in clear violation of the rules,,,, then they could even have disqualified Lewis. The stewards struggled with this one, and penalized Lewis strictly on a technicality. Otmar Szafnauer, team principal for Aston-Martin, called it a racing incident,,,, so did Jenson Button, Karun Chandhok, Damon Hill, Martin Brundle, and a few others.



Blah,Blah, Blah. The stewards penalized Hamilton for "Causing an accident." The penalty was too light IMHO, but there it is. It's supposed racing at the highest level, not bumper cars.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Koop said:


> bumper cars.


More like demolition derby


----------



## Koop

Regarding first lap leniency, the intent was not to penalize drivers that are arriving at the first corners clustered three or more abreast. Some contact may be unavoidable in those instances. It wasn't intended to make it okay to blow the corner entry and punt another car. Wheel-to-wheel racing in this instance would have meant Hamilton maintained control of his car, hit the apex and raced _inside_ of Max's line. His entry speed and trajectory made that an impossible task.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Koop said:


> Regarding first lap leniency, the intent was not to penalize drivers that are arriving at the first corners clustered three or more abreast. Some contact may be unavoidable in those instances. It wasn't intended to make it okay to blow the corner entry and punt another car. Wheel-to-wheel racing in this instance would have meant Hamilton maintained control of his car, hit the apex and raced _inside_ of Max's line. His entry speed and trajectory made that an impossible task.


Especially fully loaded with fuel and on cold tyres.


----------



## Bobby2shots

The moment of impact.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Exactly. Hamilton was way behind. But you need to see the whole curve and the setup for the next to understand how its negotiated at 180mph.


----------



## Corradobrit1

This explains it pretty well. Nobody hits Copse at the angle of attack Hamilton was attempting at that speed. You can see Hamiltons last second deviation to complete an impossible undercut. That was Verstappen's corner as he was ahead throughout the manoever and Hamilton had no chance of hitting the apex without colliding with Verstappen on cold tyre's and at maximum weight.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Corradobrit1 said:


> Exactly. Hamilton was way behind. But you need to see the whole curve and the setup for the next to understand how its negotiated at 180mph.



Not quite,,,,, Hamiltons' left front wheel was at one moment, right behind Max's right front, and in fact, Toto referenced that very point,,, that once a car's "front axle" (his words) are past mid-ship on the other car, it's either cars' option to contest the corner.

Now,,, how much room is available to Max's left, vs Lewis's right? Who had the most leeway for avoiding contact, especially at 180 mph.?

Earlier, I said Max's hands had steered right, but he immediately corrected to the left, and that was because Lewis was right there (past Max's mid-ship). He then decided to "shut the door anyway" on Lewis by turning in on him with a hard right, and "kaboom".

So, what "propelled" Max air-borne? Well, as you can see, the front edge of Max's right rear, is thrusting/rotating downward,,,, while the back of Lewis's front tire is rotating upward. When the two oppositely rotating tire surfaces touch, Max goes airborne, and the rest is history. It was Max who hit Lewis. Max was the maker of his own demise.


----------



## Corradobrit1

The stewards don't see it your way....Hamilton was penalized. His car should never have been where it was given the state of his tyre's and the weight. He tried to stuff it where he had no chance of making a clean pass. Max was following the racing line. Hamilton was getting desperate after several failed passing attempts earlier in the lap. It was completely Lewis' fault.


----------



## Bobby2shots

There was no "clear" leader at that point. Each and every corner was contested as your own diagram shows.

And regarding "the state of Lewis's tires????? It was the first lap,,,,, the tires were only 9 corners old. Both cars had the same tire condition and fuel-load.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Regarding the stewards' decision,,,, Lewis should not have been penalized, and Max owes Lewis an apology. The racial slurs that came Lewis's way after the race, were nothing short of appalling. The stewards went against what all the team principals had agreed upon at the start of the season, which allowed the cars to race wheel to wheel until there is a clear uncontested leader. "Technically" speaking, Max was ahead by a wheel, so they penalized Lewis based on that factor, hence the decision to give a 10-second time penalty, and not a disqualification.

One subject we haven't yet touched on. is motivation. Think about it a bit. Who "wins" if one does what to the other guy????? Max had everything to gain, even if he took both cars off,,,, Lewis had all to lose if he took both cars off.


----------



## Koop

Bobby - give it up. You obviously are a Hamilton fan-boi and can't accept the reality. The race stewards had much more data and evidence than any of us fans and ruled Hamilton was at fault. Accept it.


----------



## Koop

Yeah, once again Mercedes gets a break. Clearly Bottas took several teams out of points contention. A race ban is the minimum penalty in my view.


----------



## Jovidah

Mercedes = professional bumper cars. I guess Bottas secured his seat for next year. I used to think when Mercedes engineers said 'keep pushing' they meant to go faster. It's getting a whole new meaning the last few races...


----------



## Corradobrit1

I think Merc drivers are confusing F1 racing with skittles. F1 Demolition Derby


----------



## Keith Sinclair

That's how to win use #2 to take out the competition.

Seriously the roads were damp as motorcyclist
most my life that is the most hazard, puts a slippery sheen over what ever on road surface.
Not enough water to wash it away.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Vettel has been disqualified, and loses his P2 finish result. All cars who finished behind Vettel, will now be awarded one position higher. Hamilton is now awarded P2 and 18 championship points, Sainz is now P3, Alonso P4. Gasly is P5, and Tsunoda P6. Both Williams drivers finished in the points, P7 for Latifi, and P8 for Russel. Max finishes 9th, and Kimi, 10th.

Seb was disqualified after the race and podium presentation, because Aston-Martin were unable to extract and provide to race officials, the mandatory 1 liter of fuel for after-race analysis. They could only extract .3 liters. Aston-Martin has announced they will appeal the stewards' decision, and they claim that the car finished with 1.44 liters of fuel in the tank.

Great result for Alpine and Ferrari. I thought Seb did a great job too. Hamilton was amazing, especially considering the fact that he was the only car that didn't pit after the start was red-flagged, and he had to run an extra lap on intermediate wet tires, and later forced to pit form dry's while the race was full-on. Hamilton now leads the drivers' championship standings by 8 points.


----------



## WiriWiri

Gawd, I‘m no Hamilton or Mercedes fan, but some of the conspiratorial stuff on this thread is verging on tin foil wearing tomfoolery.

I’m enjoying Hamilton being seen as somehow more reckless and ruthless tbh. For far too long he’s been seen as far too clean and boring and I’m enjoying his new, laughable panto villain status tbh. I’ve warmed to him in recent years - undoubtedly he‘s never going to be as popular as a reckless, obnoxiously white prick like Mansell or Hunt in the UK, but he kept his head down and succeeded by being just damn good for years, And now he’s enough power to feel entitled to speak out on BLM and political issues, which wins him even fewer friends in the media, so fairplay to him.

I’m struggling to have too much sympathy for Verstappen, a man not always known for his responsible driving style in the past, for objecting for someone else driving mildly aggressively. And gawd knows what pant wetting hysterics this thread would been in during the days of Schumacher or Senna unapologetically taking out the competition on more than a few occasions, A elbows-out racing incident and another crash caused by a teammate are not cause for alarm imo


----------



## Bart.s

Schumacher was indeed a dirty dog when driving, if he could drive you off the track or crash during a qualifying to ruin someone else's, he would.

Don't think Bottas has the chops for this. In fact, he's just a very poor wet driver. Last weekend he went bowling, Imola '21 had a crash with Russell (ok maybe not his fault, but Russell was about to overtake him, not a position you should be in when driving a Mercedes ) and Turkey '20 he spun like 6 times.

Hope Russell gets a chance in the Mercedes. Much better racer. He was in tears after the race, for both Williams cars scored points this weekend. Nice to see such passion. But I'm not too sure Toto will put him next to Hamilton, as I don't think he wants another Hamilton/Rosberg situation in the team.

Also enjoyed the Alonso Hamilton fight last couple of rounds. What an absolute legend.


----------



## Bobby2shots

I think Bottas will wear a Mercedes uniform for a while yet. It's looking to me that Valteri is settling into his role as a No.2, much as Eddie Irvine was for Schumacher.


----------



## Koop

WiriWiri said:


> I’m enjoying Hamilton being seen as somehow more reckless and ruthless tbh. For far too long he’s been seen as far too clean and boring and I’m enjoying his new, laughable panto villain status tbh.



How long have you been watching Hamilton race? In 2011 he was penalized twice in the Monaco Grand Prix for causing collisions - first with Felipe Massa (drive through penalty) then with Pastor Maldonado (another drive through). The same year in Malaysia he was given a drive-through for making more than one move to prevent being overtaken. Then in Spain he was reprimanded for speeding past yellow flags. Then in Canada he caused a collision with Jenson Button and stopped on track in an unsafe manner. In the British Grand Prix he used DRS while it was "disabled," but received no penalty. In Belgium he again caused a collision with Pastor Maldonado. He again collided with Felipe Massa in Japan. In India he had a three-place grid drop for ignoring yellow flags and endangering track marshalls.

This was all in one season - and he remarked about being unfairly singled out because of his skin color.

He was hit with drive-through penalties in 2013 and 2015. How he got away with a 10-second penalty at Silverstone is beyond explanation. He has a history of receiving drive-throughs.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Koop said:


> How long have you been watching Hamilton race? In 2011 he was penalized twice in the Monaco Grand Prix for causing collisions - first with Felipe Massa (drive through penalty) then with Pastor Maldonado (another drive through). The same year in Malaysia he given a drive-through for making more than one move to prevent being overtaken. Then in Spain he was reprimanded for speeding past yellow flags. Then in Canada he caused a collision with Jenson Button and stopped on track in an unsafe manner. In the British Grand Prix he used DRS while it was "disabled," but received no penalty. In Belgium he again caused a collision with Pastor Maldonado. He again collided with Felipe Massa in Japan. In India he had a three-place grid drop for ignoring yellow flags and endangering track marshalls.
> 
> This was all in one season - and he remarked about being unfairly singled out because of his skin color.
> 
> He was hit with drive-through penalties in 2013 and 2015. How he got away with a 10-second penalty at Silverstone is beyond explanation. He has a history of receiving drive-throughs.



Sadly, it's all too easy to see where you're coming from....... Pastor Maldinado???? Really????? The man that BBC Sports referred to as "Crashtor Maldinado"???? GMAFB.


----------



## Bart.s

I heard that Mercedes are going to bring updates to Spa after the summer break.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> I heard that Mercedes are going to bring updates to Spa after the summer break.
> 
> View attachment 136928



Essential Survival gear; Oh goodie,,,, wrap-around protection from hot-headed over-aggressive corner-divers.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Bart.s said:


> I heard that Mercedes are going to bring updates to Spa after the summer break.
> 
> View attachment 136928


Plenty of room for elbow extensions


----------



## Bobby2shots

Corradobrit1 said:


> Plenty of room for elbow extensions


----------



## WiriWiri

Koop said:


> How long have you been watching Hamilton race? In 2011 he was penalized twice in the Monaco Grand Prix for causing collisions - first with Felipe Massa (drive through penalty) then with Pastor Maldonado (another drive through). The same year in Malaysia he was given a drive-through for making more than one move to prevent being overtaken. Then in Spain he was reprimanded for speeding past yellow flags. Then in Canada he caused a collision with Jenson Button and stopped on track in an unsafe manner. In the British Grand Prix he used DRS while it was "disabled," but received no penalty. In Belgium he again caused a collision with Pastor Maldonado. He again collided with Felipe Massa in Japan. In India he had a three-place grid drop for ignoring yellow flags and endangering track marshalls.
> 
> This was all in one season - and he remarked about being unfairly singled out because of his skin color.
> 
> He was hit with drive-through penalties in 2013 and 2015. How he got away with a 10-second penalty at Silverstone is beyond explanation. He has a history of receiving drive-throughs.



As long as he’s raced tbh, although I’m no huge F1 fan, particularly in the current era. I don’t share your encyclopaedic, some would say borderline obsessive, knowledge of Hamilton‘s race incidents a decade ago, but consider myself well placed to have a good feel for how Hamilton was (and Is) perceived in the UK. Let’s just say that he was not known for excitement.

My memory of Verstappen‘s earliver years is different - he was seen as exciting, albeit a reckless overtaker. He was commonly tagged by the nickname Crashstappen and seem to remember him threatening to headbutt a reporter asking about his 6th crash or spin in as many races at the start of 2018. Verstappen’s high horse on these type of incidents is more Shetland pony to me.

I am quite old and memory is admittedly poor, but you’ll excuse me wondering about the balance of some your posts.


----------



## WiriWiri

Corradobrit1 said:


> Plenty of room for elbow extensions



Pah. If it was Schumacher there’d be a seperate button that revealed the chariot-wheel style spikes to shred a rival’s tyres. As a bonus, the same button could also be used to disguise the illegal performance enhancing devices he commonly cheated with


----------



## Bart.s

WiriWiri said:


> Pah. If it was Schumacher there’d be a seperate button that revealed the chariot-wheel style spikes to shred a rival’s tyres. As a bonus, the same button could also be used to disguise the illegal performance enhancing devices he commonly cheated with



Second bonus, if he would push that button, he would suddenly lose control of the car during qualifying, while being on P1 and compromise everybody's else's fast laps


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Mercedes going back in time 1924













Leather seats, handbrake actually works, steering wheel & brake wrapped in thin waxed thread.


----------



## Keith Sinclair




----------



## Keith Sinclair

Germans painted it Red to fool the hot headed
Italian fans who threw rocks at the German cars.


----------



## Bart.s

Keith Sinclair said:


> Germans painted it Red to fool the hot headed
> Italian fans who threw rocks at the German cars.



Seriously? Not while driving I hope?


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Are you kidding of coarse when driving those were the days


----------



## Corradobrit1

Bart.s said:


> Seriously? Not while driving I hope?


No for real. The Florio is raced in Italy. Italian fans have no qualms. 








Mercedes "Targa Florio" racing car, 1924 | marsClassic


Mercedes "Targa Florio" racing car, 1924




mercedes-benz-publicarchive.com


----------



## Bart.s

Damn, as if driving 75 mph without seatbelts and on chariot wheels wasn't dangerous enough.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Corradobrit1 said:


> No for real. The Florio is raced in Italy. Italian fans have no qualms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mercedes "Targa Florio" racing car, 1924 | marsClassic
> 
> 
> Mercedes "Targa Florio" racing car, 1924
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mercedes-benz-publicarchive.com



Thanks the site. If you hit specs button can read about car. Hit the pictures can see photos
of racing 1924. Link on each picture tells drivers place etc. 

Those cars didn't just race on paved roads & tracks
They had to have ground clearance & underneath protective shield.


----------



## LostHighway

Keith Sinclair said:


> View attachment 136937



Very cool! Do you have an Alfa Romeo P3 or 12C in your collection?


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Not yet haven't bought a diecast in about 10 yrs. When got my first CMC model 1953 Ferrari
500 F2, it was so superior to other diecast just bought CMC after that. German Co. made in China early to mid 2,000's labor was cheap models very reasonable for the over 1k metal pieces put in some of them. 

Have 11 CMC models all grand prix race cars
except 1938 Bugatti Atlantic Coupe, Aston Martin DB4 Zagato 1961, Maserati 300S 1956.

The Maserati with it's aluminum birdcage frame is made from 1,838 single parts.

Have seen some of my models listed on eBay
for quite a bit more than I bought new. Some are missing parts. Mine pristine in display case 
Led lights. 

The Alfa Romeo Monzas dethroned the Bugatti type 35 Grand Prix cars. In early 1930's
the Alfa's dominated.
The straight 8 engines in those cars were works of art. 

If I knew how to post utubes would great shows of Jay Leno driving Argentine made
Pursang exact replicas made by hand as they were originally. He has Bugatti Type 35 & Alfa
Romero Monza. 

CMC finally making a Gran Prix Alfa Romeo Monzas not out yet but can pre order. There are 
plenty cheap Alfa Romeo Monzas diecast some are just awful.


----------



## Kippington




----------



## Corradobrit1

Kippington said:


>



And at 17 or 18 years of age. Pure talent


----------



## Bart.s

Kippington said:


>




Brazil 2016, what a race.

Max said in an interview once he learned how to drive in the wet in his karting days. When practicing on track and it started to rain, everybody else would pack in and call it a day. But not Jos and Max. Jos would put some wet tires on the kart and send him on the track. Jos would even stand on the middle of the track whilst Max was racing, just to point out what lines to take and find grip.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Ettore Buggatti
Ferdinand Porsche
Soichiro Honda

Automotive & mechanical genius


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Bart.s said:


> Damn, as if driving 75 mph without seatbelts and on chariot wheels wasn't dangerous enough.



No helmets, a mechanics dude sitting next to driver partly to use hand pump in cockpit to pump oil into engine on tight turns the oil in pan would fly to one side. Smoking cigars & cigarettes, getting drunk after the races.


----------



## Bart.s

ONBOARD: Full Hamilton and Alonso's battle


Watch "ONBOARD: Full Hamilton and Alonso's battle" on Streamable.




streamable.com





Onboard montage of the Hamilton Alonso fight Hungarian GP. If this doesn't pump your racing heart


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Nice like the shifting with paddles so fast.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

At least Max Verstappen won after couple unfortunate races. I thought Monza in Italy first modern F1 I watched was the best. It was raining pretty hard didn't delay or shorten race.
Next is Dutch GP 

CMC models finally making a early 1930's Alfa Romeo P3 single seater. The engine in that racing car was a work of art. I pre ordered one
I installed led lights in the two wood mirror back cases last year. 8 cars each. So 16 models. Had 4 1960's F1 racers already two in box because not enough room. So got one more case wired up the lights dedicated it to 
1960's race cars. Looking on eBay can't believe
asking prices on CMC cars I own. Went to look
on eBay for quality 1/18 60's racers. Discouraged at first prices on those are way up
too. They say because limited # made & long
out of production models. So I found few models I like & search on Google for that car only. Did same thing buying CMC years ago. 
Prices vary a lot when you get same model available from around the world. So was able to 
score 3 models at much cheaper prices than others were asking. One was 800.00 - 500.00
other places. I found one starting bid 200.00
No one bid waited final seconds got it for 200.00. if go buy preferred vendors on eBay 
You don't find them on broader search. Must
be very specific to that one car. 

























The figure is Enzo Ferrari next to 1961 Sharknose his first rear engine car 1.5L six
very fast.


----------



## Keith Sinclair




----------



## rstcso

Beautiful collection and spectacular display. Thank you for sharing.


----------



## Bart.s

Keith Sinclair said:


> At least Max Verstappen won after couple unfortunate races. I thought Monza in Italy first modern F1 I watched was the best. It was raining pretty hard didn't delay or shorten race.
> Next is Dutch GP



Can't really speak of a 'win' for Verstappen after 2 laps behind the SC and calling it a race, but at least he closed the gap to Hamilton. It's pretty rare that a race gets cancelled due to rain, can't remember the last time. But on a track like Spa, I think it was the right call, especially with al the recent accidents at Eau Rouge/Raidillon (most recent W series, a Dutch female driver was involved, pretty scary accident).

And yes, this weekend Zandvoort. Been a while since they have been there. They have done modifications to the track, they have added substantial degrees of banking in 2 corners. But still, it's a narrow track and I suspect overtaking will be difficult because of the width of modern F1 cars. There is a nice onboard from max driving there:



Oh and BTW, love your collection! The details of those models are amazing.

EDIT: for anyone that is interested, Netflix will be releasing a documentary of Schumacher's career on September 15th. Not sure this is a worldwide release.


----------



## big_adventure

Awesome collection @Keith Sinclair !


----------



## MarcelNL

big_adventure said:


> Awesome collection @Keith Sinclair !


and so nice to see they already made them wearing face masks


----------



## Keith Sinclair

but they were not effective either when 
cars caught on fire.


----------



## Jovidah

Even though I'm Dutch I'm struggling to get excited about the Zandvoort GP next weekend. I'm afraid it's going to be another one of those Hungaroring tracks that is too slow and too narrow for any interesting racing or overtaking. I hope I'm wrong but consider me a skeptic...
It's really a shame we didn't get an actual race on Spa. Always one of my favorite tracks on the calender. They just don't build them like that anymore.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Jovidah said:


> Even though I'm Dutch I'm struggling to get excited about the Zandvoort GP next weekend. I'm afraid it's going to be another one of those Hungaroring tracks that is too slow and too narrow for any interesting racing or overtaking. I hope I'm wrong but consider me a skeptic...
> It's really a shame we didn't get an actual race on Spa. Always one of my favorite tracks on the calender. They just don't build them like that anymore.



Anything,,,,, will be better than last weekends' farce. Shame on F1 and the FIA.

I too, always look forward to Spa as one of the highlight races of the year. What I didn't expect this year was, the FIA's race to get out of town, and pay the contractors, and, to hell with the fans. This race should have been re-scheduled. This was worse than the 2005 U.S. Grand Prix where the drivers went on strike, and only six cars raced. At least, they raced. Spa gets a 2-lap parade behind the safety car, with no passing allowed. Why bother? (yeah, it's declared "a race" because the minimum required of "laps" were completed, so the contractors get paid)


----------



## Jovidah

I can actually understand the reluctance from the organization when you consider a few events:
-On Saturday the quali had to get red flagged due to Norris's accident in Eau rouge that he was lucky to walk away from. The accident happened when people were already asking them to stop the session.
-One of the other races earlier on Sunday - on a dry track - also saw a big crash in Eau Rouge that actually did send someone into the hospital.
-It's been only 2 years since Hubert's fatal accident in Eau Rouge.

These things start stacking up. Spa is already one of the more dangerous tracks even in good conditions. I just think they legit didn't dare to start the race in those conditions, no matter how much they may have wanted to; if anything had gone wrong everyone would have blamed them for letting them drive in those conditions. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Rescheduling isn't much of an option considering how full the calendar already is.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Jovidah said:


> Rescheduling isn't much of an option considering how full the calendar already is.



Yeah, rescheduling is not easy, especially with another race this weekend, but they could have raced Monday. Regarding future dates, Japan has already cancelled, and there'll probably be others due to Covid outbreaks.

What disappoints me most, is that the fans have waited a month for the summer break to end, and we get,,,,,, a 2-lap "parade".

What a shame about Lando. Vettel even said over team radio that the track was too wet, and that the race should be red-flagged. Seconds later, Lando crashes. Vettel was "pissed" and I don't blame him.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I couldn't believe it, as you know my first season of watching modern F1. I agree they could have tried to run it next day there already.


----------



## Koop

It's all about money. Getting two "race laps" met the sporting regulations and they essentially awarded half-points for qualifying.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Koop said:


> It's all about money. Getting two "race laps" met the sporting regulations and they essentially awarded half-points for qualifying.



Yeah,,, and they ultimately want to go pay-per-view. Who wouldn't be happy paying to watch a 2 lap parade???

They should have called the race,,,, with no points awarded. As it stands, Lando Norris will get a grid penalty in the next race, and it's all because Michael Masi, the race director, didn't have the gonads to call the race. Lando was set to start on the front row, or close by. I believe he was P2 at the moment of the crash. As a result, he gets ZERO points, plus it costs the team to fix the car, plus the grid penalty in the next race. This was another case where the guys in the booth, "know more" than the drivers. Of course, they won't "review" Masi's call,,, after all,,,, they "met the requirements" for a "race". How convenient that such a "rule" even exists.

FIRE Masi. Let the FIA pay for Lando's crash. In my eyes, the FIA was directly responsible (irresponsible) for the crash.


----------



## Jovidah

Koop said:


> It's all about money. Getting two "race laps" met the sporting regulations and they essentially awarded half-points for qualifying.


I'm not sure that was about the money though? Most events usually have some force majeur clause to protect themselves for these kind of extreme cases. At worst it's an insurance matter.

The decision to award points or not is controversial no matter what you do. It's silly to award points for not racing, but at the same time it's also silly to not have any reward in the championship for the drivers and teams that did actually perform well for the rest of the weekend and as a result got a good grid position. Half points is kind of splitting it down the middle. If they had actually raced in those conditions the results would probably have been very similar to the starting grind... minus a few pretty much guaranteed DNFs due to crashes.

I agree that weird 'negative exceptions' like the one you described for Norris deserve some kind of special treatment or exception here, especially considering the conditions of his crash (several drivers were already calling for red flags when he went off). Lately it feels like a lot of the 'rules' are having effects beyond their original purpose. There's a similar problem with the engine and gearbox regulations etc, where having a crash in one race that causes a total writeoff basically forces you to ruin another race later in the season because you're you incur a penalty for exceeding the limit of allowed parts swaps.


----------



## Bart.s

As for refunds for ticket holders, they are already reviewing that. There should be more news on that the coming week:









F1 provides update on Belgian GP refunds


Hamilton called for refunds for fans after what he described as a "farce"




www.google.com





The half point situation is indeed a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing. Racing on Monday would have been impossible. F1 events are organised with a lot of volunteers, including trackside marshals, who likely had to go to work the next day. Also, the teams had to be on their way to the next GP. So I do think that rewarding half points was the good call, as all the F1 teams did spent money to get there and race. And it's not something they could do anything about.

Indeed a shame how it ended for Norris. But it's not that anyone forced him to go out and race in those conditions? As a team or driver, you could have made the call not to race if you think it's too dangerous? Both team and Norris were willing to take the chance, then also live with the consequences, also if this includes totalling a car and getting a grid penalty.

I do however believe the rules of swapping parts because of an accident caused by someone else should be reviewed. I get that there should be a limit on how many parts a team can use during a season. But I do think that changing parts because of an accident caused by someone else should not be added to the total. Just look at Max, on his third engine, with the half of the season remaining. He is going to have to take a grid penalty somewhere and who knows, it might even cost him the championship.


----------



## Bobby2shots

How about this for a solution to points awarded for no race;,,,, divide the damned money equally among ALL the teams, so the bottom-feeders at least get SOME chance of recouping their losses/expenses. They're always left holding the bag,,,,, no money for development, etc. Let's face it, under the current points system, there's only 6 teams that should be racing, and the rest are merely "fillers" to create the image (illusion) of an internationally significant sport.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

This was Stirling Moss second consecutive 
win at Monaco driving Lotus 18. Behind is Sharknose first rear engine Ferrari in third
grey Porsche. 1961 these cars were really small. The drivers prone position inches off the 
pavement. 1.5L hitting speeds of 160mph.

One of the 60's models I bought had a few of these Lithographs signed by Sterling Moss.
My phone camera can't capture rich color.
The great driver with many victories in the very 
dangerous golden age of F1 died in 2020 at age 90


----------



## LostHighway

Keith Sinclair said:


> This was Stirling Moss second consecutive
> win at Monaco driving Lotus 18. Behind is Sharknose first rear engine Ferrari in third
> grey Porsche. 1961 these cars were really small. The drivers prone position inches off the
> pavement. 1.5L hitting speeds of 160mph.
> 
> One of the 60's models I bought had a few of these Lithographs signed by Sterling Moss.
> My phone camera can't capture rich color.
> The great driver with many victories in the very
> dangerous golden age of F1 died in 2020 at age 90
> View attachment 140670



An unusually American field: Phil Hill (3rd), Richie Ginther (2nd) in Ferraris and Dan Gurney (5th) driving for Porsche. Wolfgang von Trips was fourth, also driving a Ferrari, von Tripps died in an accident at Monza that year.
I love the tiny Enzo among your models!


----------



## Keith Sinclair

You know your F1 history


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Heads up for anyone who maybe interested.
Hadn't bought models almost 10 years when
pre-ordered CMC early 30's Alfa Romeo.

Looking on eBay all my cmc 1/18 were asking
3-4 times as much prices I paid. 

Searched cars one at a time for best deals on 60's GP racers found some good sites.

One was wholesale_diecast-models got good price & free shipping to Hawaii.

One of my first CMC models was Bugatti 35
1920's It won more races than any car in history. Reason why is Bugatti was way ahead
of his time. Lightweight race car, aluminum alloy wheels, straight eight supercharged engine. It was best technology, fastest car.
So other countries esp. Europe just bought the
35's & painted their own country colors on them. This is a 1/18 CMC as only they can do it.
The model is like a Swiss watch.

If you want to check them out google 1/18 CMC Bugatti 35

The seller I mentioned has best price new mint
models around 300.00. I paid 280.00 over 10 years ago so that's a damn good deal.










He has many countries colors. Following 
pictures from CMC catalogue.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Well I enjoyed the race it is interesting track challenging banked curves. In this covid resurgence a large dutch crowd. Even the Royal
Family. Max drove a smart race he had to get a pass after pit stop or be boxed in between two 
Mercedes. Passing difficult but other red bull
Honda had good race starting from back of the field.


----------



## Bobby2shots

I watched the race, but unfortunately, I found it to be one of the most boring races of the 2021 season. Great drives by Pierre Gasly, as well as Checo.
Zandvoort gets a thumbs down from me; it's narrow, and a "follow-the-parade" track, with not enough straights, so little if any chance to pass. That should be an entirely different story next weekend, when they go to Monza. Let's hope it's a good one.

Get well soon Kimi (tested positive for Covid-19). Kimi's retiring at the end of this season.


----------



## Jovidah

Yeah even tho I'm Dutch it felt a lot like another Hungaroring to me. Just not enough opportunity for actual racing on that track. 
I don't have best hopes for Monza either; that tends to be one of those 'may the best engine win' snoozefests.


----------



## Koop

Bobby2shots said:


> I watched the race, but unfortunately, I found it to be one of the most boring races of the 2021 season. Great drives by Pierre Gasly, as well as Checo.
> Zandvoort gets a thumbs down from me; it's a "follow-the-parade" track, with not enough straights, so little if any chance to pass. That should be an entirely different story next weekend, when they go to Monza. Let's hope it's a good one.



Tell that to Perez. Started from pit lane and finished in the points after several great overtaking maneuvers.


----------



## Jovidah

It's hard not to end in the points when you have a car that's faster than pretty much 15 of the other cars anyway. It's sad enough he didn't get through Q1 in the first place.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Felt like a race on my old scalectrix track. Nice novelty experience thanks to the banking but I don't think this will be a regular fixture in future seasons.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Corradobrit1 said:


> Felt like a race on my old scalectrix track. Nice novelty experience thanks to the banking but I don't think this will be a regular fixture in future seasons.



They've either got to add another straight (or two),,,, or widen some areas,,,,, or if we want some REAL excitement, how about 2-way traffic. top 10 qualifiers go clock-wise, bottom 10 go anti-clockwise.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

That track would be good for short wheelbase
racing cars or motorcycles cornering machines. Many of these tracks were made when F1 cars were much smaller.


----------



## MarcelNL

F1 game of chicken, first a stare down, followed by a 1-1 chicken run. The driver who breaks off last (timed) gets pole.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Monza in the rain first race saw this season.
Deff. one of best races. The Red Bull Honda guy
said Mercedes favorites on this type of circuit.

Don't know if that's true or just talk to make it sound good esp. if you win. Max won that race 
in the rain. 

Monza has that big banked oval track too. That's what F1 cars in grand prix movie raced on. Read that it was restored 2010. Wonder what type of racing they use it for now.


----------



## Jovidah

The old Monza track would be interesting, but pure suicide with current cars. Monza tends to go to whatever team happens to have the best engine since it's basically nothing but straights with a few chicanes in between. Currently that's Mercedes, hence they're the favorite on that track. But rain is the great equalizer and can spice things up.
I don't think Max ever won Monza? Last year Gasly won, but that was largely due to a lot of weird stuff happening and him ending up being the lucky one.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

My mistake thought second round this year in Italy was Monza, it was Imola. Makes since they don't repeat on same tracks. Was looking at the Monza track just now should be interesting. Type of circuit where strongest engine wins. Hope the Honda tuners are on their game.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> My mistake thought second round this year in Italy was Monza, it was Imola. Makes since they don't repeat on same tracks. Was looking at the Monza track just now should be interesting. Type of circuit where strongest engine wins. Hope the Honda tuners are on their game.



Actually, they do repeat tracks,,,sometimes. Red Bull's home track (The Red Bull Ring) is in Austria, and this year, they ran back-to-back races there,,,, The Austrian Grand Prix, and, the Styrian Grand Prix.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Driver market's heating up. Kimi is retiring,,, Bottas is taking his place at Alfa Romeo (long-term contract signed yesterday),,, and it looks like Toto has opened the door for George. That opens seats at Williams and possibly a few more. Who partners' Latifi in 2022??

Will Giovinazzi hold his seat at Alfa? Zhou (China) brings a lot of financial backing, so he's an interesting prospect for some of the back-marker teams. Gasly has been strong and consistent and I don't see him moving,,, unless he goes to Williams. Capito seems intent on turning that team around.

Honda's gone next year, and Red Bull will be building their own engines, as well as becoming an engine supplier, so that should be interesting.

What's up with Haas? How can a driver like Niko Hulkenberg sit on the sidelines, and Nikita Mazepin hold a seat??? As for Mick Schumacher, name-recognition is one thing. but does Zhou's money-backing outweigh wishful thinking? Then there's Alex Albon,,,, hmmm. I wouldn't be surprised if Eugene Haas sells the team.


----------



## Koop

Giovinazzi is probably the most "at risk" driver. Albon is facing contract demands by Mercedes to cut all ties with Red Bull before he can drive at Williams - we'll see how that plays out. Mazespin brings too much money to Haas for them to release him.

Just my thoughts - it's called silly season for a reason.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Koop said:


> Giovinazzi is probably the most "at risk" driver. Albon is facing contract demands by Mercedes to cut all ties with Red Bull before he can drive at Williams - we'll see how that plays out. *Mazespin brings too much money to Haas for them to release him.*
> 
> Just my thoughts - it's called silly season for a reason.



There seems to be trouble in the Haas hen-house. Lots of friction off-track between Mick Schumacher and "Mazespin". It has also spilled out onto the track now, so something's gonna break there sooner than later.









2021 Dutch Grand Prix: Haas team mates Schumacher and Mazepin make contact


Ride onboard with Mick Schumacher as the Haas driver makes contact with his team mate Nikita Mazepin during the early stages of the 2021 Formula 1 Dutch Grand Prix at Zandvoort.




www.formula1.com


----------



## Bart.s

Mercedes announce George Russell will partner Lewis Hamilton in 2022 as Briton signs long-term deal | Formula 1®


George Russell will line up alongside Lewis Hamilton in 2022 after the Briton signed a long-term race deal with Mercedes.




www.formula1.com


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Sorry here I go again. Found pictures on eBay
Many of my models in action back in the day.
They weren't much most all under 4.00$ except
Monaco 17"x11" were 9.00$ all free shipping.


























I could not resist French beauty BB 1956


----------



## MarcelNL

the duck face was not invented recently, so much is clear


----------



## Bobby2shots

MarcelNL said:


> the duck face was not invented recently, so much is clear



Oh yes, I see it now. I was too busy looking elsewhere.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Nothing wrong with soft suggestive cleavage.

Back when racers would drive in the rain. Photo copy of painting by Peter Helicopter 1893-1988


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Keith Sinclair said:


> Helick


----------



## Bobby2shots

Albon signs with Williams as George Russels' replacement.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Got a resin painted figure of Bugatti from 1920's era. Also ordered one of Ferdinand Porsche take a while coming from EU. So with Enzo Ferrari will have three of the greatest automotive figures in history. Have several 1930's CMC German race cars with his engine work and design.

I put Mr. Honda up there with the rest but no 1/18 figures of him.

Had been thinking of getting a different country painted Bugatti 35. Hard to choose.
Liked the orange dutch model, the blue & yellow Sweden, settled on solid yellow Belgian looks awesome. 300.00 free shipping. Have had some stocks do really well in retirement accounts at age where by law have to take money out every year even if don't need it.










Most successful grand prix race car of all time.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Jeez any pre halo days Hamilton would likely be killed in that pileup. Those things really work for safety.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Yep, and Max not only scuttles Lewis's race, knowing full well the Red Bull couldn't keep up for the race distance,,, and he gets away with a 3-position grid-penalty in the next race???????. And of course, when Max got out of his car, he walks away without even checking to see if Lewis was O.K. Total lack of class on his part, and just what you'd expect from that self-entitled narcissist.


----------



## Koop

Bobby2shots said:


> Yep, and Max not only scuttles Lewis's race, knowing full well the Red Bull couldn't keep up for the race distance,,, and he gets away with a 3-position grid-penalty in the next race???????. And of course, when Max got out of his car, he walks away without even checking to see if Lewis was O.K. Total lack of class on his part, and just what you'd expect from that self-entitled narcissist.



Realistically this is a very hard call. Remember Bahrain? Max drove over the curbs to avoid contact and damaged his car - costing him at least a tenth of a second per lap. So, I can see him avoiding a trip right through the curbs.

On the other hand, Lewis just came out on fresh tires, not fully up to temperature or pressure. Maybe he had no option to tighten his line. I've watched the replay several times and really can't fault either guy, but the stewards have more data than me and made a decision.


----------



## krx927

It was not just the crash, Max pushed Hamilton wide in the first lap. He did not give him any room in the second chickane. Like so many times in this and previous years...

He is playing it dirty since the beginning of his career


----------



## Bobby2shots

Koop said:


> Realistically this is a very hard call. Remember Bahrain? Max drove over the curbs to avoid contact and damaged his car - costing him at least a tenth of a second per lap. So, I can see him avoiding a trip right through the curbs.
> 
> On the other hand, Lewis just came out on fresh tires, not fully up to temperature or pressure. Maybe he had no option to tighten his line. I've watched the replay several times and really can't fault either guy, but the stewards have more data than me and made a decision.



Max should have backed out. There's no other way to look at it. The fact that Max didn't even check to see if Lewis was OK tells me a lot about Max's character (or lack thereof) Max deliberately took Lewis out, and he was happy about it. How many more times has this sort of thing got to happen before the FIA clamps down really hard on Max's recklessness. Someone is going to get killed by his selfish stupidity. Christian Horner should lead the charge here. Does Red Bull Racing need that type of behavior as part of their public image? Once again, the fans get ripped off from watching a race in order to satisfy Max's over-inflated ego and reckless self-entitlement. A full race suspension should be the minimum applied here, with an increment for further incidents. Max is not a "racer",,,, he's a whining henchman.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

He did turn his head to see if Hamilton was alright then kept walking.


----------



## Koop

Bobby2shots said:


> Max should have backed out. There's no other way to look at it. The fact that Max didn't even check to see if Lewis was OK tells me a lot about Max's character (or lack thereof) Max deliberately took Lewis out, and he was happy about it. How many more times has this sort of thing got to happen before the FIA clamps down really hard on Max's recklessness. Someone is going to get killed by his selfish stupidity. Christian Horner should lead the charge here. Does Red Bull Racing need that type of behavior as part of their public image? Once again, the fans get ripped off from watching a race in order to satisfy Max's over-inflated ego and reckless self-entitlement. A full race suspension should be the minimum applied here, with an increment for further incidents. Max is not a "racer",,,, he's a whining henchman.



Gee, what an unbiased opinion.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Open wheel racing, is much more dangerous with contact than say Nascar with wheels under body. That's why all the safety measures
built into modern F1 cars.

Back in 60's racing was exciting to say the least
many drivers died or were maimed for life.

Perhaps because of effective safety features like Halo drivers more aggressive in tactics. Cutting off someone's line, making moves that will force car off track. That seems to be the case with alpha male drivers like Hamilton & Max expecting other to give way not to crash.


----------



## Lakeshow

yeah, both aggressive drivers that were at a pivotal point in the race that neither wanted to give up. but i'd lean towards max getting more of the blame since earlier in the race in a similar situation, hamilton came up to challenge and decided to back off to avoid the crash knowing max wasn't gonna give him room. it's too bad this incident overshadows a great race by ricciardo, well deserved, and bottas getting podium from last. exciting race overall


----------



## Bobby2shots

Koop said:


> Gee, what an unbiased opinion.



"un-biased" means telling it like it is. "Biased" means sharing the blame equally, to lessen the flagrant disregard for sportsmanship from the perpetrator. Max T-boned Lewis. He didn't steer away. He didn't brake. It was purely intentional, and his team-radio message confirmed it. He said immediately "there, that's what you get when you don't leave space".

Leave space?????? is Lewis now expected to become a doorman for Max?


----------



## Koop

Bobby2shots said:


> "un-biased" means telling it like it is. "Biased" means sharing the blame equally, to lessen the flagrant disregard for sportsmanship.



It's called sarcasm (i.e. the use of irony or humor to mock or convey contempt.)


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Those two both want the championship aren't speaking to each other. icy cold baby. Gives the remaining season some spice.


----------



## Bart.s

Well, those were some crazy last 6 laps. Congrats to LH, for winning his 100th race, what an achievement! Also solid race from max, ending 2th. Too bad Mclarens/Norris gamble didn't pay off. Was really hoping Norris could take his first win. He's also lucky he didn't get a time penalty for crossing the line at pit entry. Normally it would have been a 5sec penalty and he would have ended 9th. So far, the '21 season is still delivering and I'm liking it. Most exciting season I've watched in years.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Wow, what a spectacular finish that was. Great decision by Max to be the first to pit for intermediates. That shot him up from 7th to 2nd I believe. Valtteri (who started 16th) was told by the team to stay out for 1 more lap on slicks,,, the team wasn't ready for him. He would have easily finished on the podium. Raikkonen did quite well, finishing (P8) in the points right behind Lando (P7). My heart sank when I saw Stroll bang wheels with Seb, and the Aston Martins finished 10th and 11th. Alonso also did well (6th). Checo was told to stay out on slicks after Max came in for inters, so that was his race scuttled (finished 9th) Russel took the last point (P10).

Another great result from Lewis. Historic 100th win. I believe that's the first time ever that a driver starting below P3 has ever won Sochi.

Lando,,,, what can I say. He'll see his share of P1's soon. I was absolutely gutted for him. Daniel finished P4, so quite a result there.

A well deserved podium for Sainz. Carlos has adapted to his new team very well over the last while.


----------



## Bart.s

LINK

Onboards and radio's from Lewis and Norris last laps. Onboards of Lewis aren't the best. McLaren made a costly mistake by not pitting Norris.


----------



## Lakeshow

it's gonna be quite the finish between lewis and max for the chip. hoping for fair, hard racing by both.


----------



## Bart.s

Hope so too. Next up Istanbul. RB has a special livery, to honor Honda for their last season in F1. And possible an engine change for Hamilton, if so he would get a grid penalty and start last.


----------



## Bobby2shots

81% chance of showers for qualy,,, 31% chance of showers for the race.


----------



## Lakeshow

Bobby2shots said:


> 81% chance of showers for qualy,,, 31% chance of showers for the race.


wow...F1 cannot avoid the rain...


----------



## Bobby2shots

I've just looked at a few more forecasts from different sources, and it should be a dry race; just a sprinkle in the morning. 0.1mm


----------



## Keith Sinclair

New to watching modern F1 this year my favorite race was second one in Italy. Raining, flashing rain lights, spinouts, crash. Drivers moving up places in the rain.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Keith Sinclair said:


> New to watching modern F1 this year my favorite race was second one in Italy. Raining, flashing rain lights, spinouts, crash. Drivers moving up places in the rain. ⛈🌩🌧


If you thought that race was exciting watch the men's Paris Roubaix 2021 cycle race last weekend. Absolute carnage,.........


----------



## Bobby2shots

Seems like Hamilton not only has to fight off the Red Bulls,,,, he also has to fight off his own engineers who call him in for a tire change with only 13 laps to go, despite Lewis telling them he was fine. That move not only cost Lewis the Championship points, but it also cost the team points. Once again, the engineers "know better than the driver",,,,,, What is with those guys????


----------



## Bart.s

Bobby2shots said:


> Seems like Hamilton not only has to fight off the Red Bulls,,,, he also has to fight off his own engineers who call him in for a tire change with only 13 laps to go, despite Lewis telling them he was fine. That move not only cost Lewis the Championship points, but it also cost the team points. Once again, the engineers "know better than the driver",,,,,, What is with those guys????



Ocon finished the race on 1 set of tires, so it could be done. However, Hamilton was much harder on his tires, having to charge through the field. I'm not sure Hamilton would have made it till the end, and if so, how much risk there was for being overtaken by the drivers behind him on fresh tires. He was told to pit earlier, but he refused. So I don't think this is all on the team, but a joined decision with a poor outcome. 

Radio transcript: How Hamilton's plan to delay his pit stop backfired · RaceFans

Other than that, it was a pretty uneventful race, expected more action in the wet. Even Bottas did well. And you gotta give points to Vettel for trying


----------



## JaVa

I bet the risk for tyre failure with Hamilton was too big of a gamble. It's calculated risk/reward. If the tyres would have failed before the finish line, that would've been catastrophic for Hamiltons championship fight. Now his still close enough. 

And I'm just guessing, but with all the data in the engineers disposal andwith their experience they probably had an idea what was the best solution. 

Even if someone else managed with one set doesn't meen it would've worked with Hamiltons run down tyres. He'll be back stronger like always.


----------



## Jovidah

Not sure Hamilton can blame his team for the end result; he himself wanted to remain out. My guess is they had to pull him in at the end because either he was at risk of tire failure, or simply would have been too much of a sitting duck in the last few rounds. Though I don't put a lot of credit in Ferrari tactical deicision making, the fact that Leclerc also gave up his P1 to come in says something. If he had come in straight after Perez when his engineers first told him to he'd most likely have finished third. 

Agreed on it being a surprisingly boring race given that it was a wet track.


----------



## Bobby2shots

When Lewis pitted, it was on lap 51 of a 58 lap race. He was P3 at that point. Lewis was also 13 seconds ahead of Perez. That pit stop probably cost him 24 seconds or so. Had he not pitted, he could have reduced his speed by 2 full seconds per lap, and still finished right behind Max in P3. Even if he reduced speed by 3 seconds per lap, Perez still would have to get by Lewis, and that would have been a helluva task at best. Add the fact that Lewis's car was the fastest car out there, and I can understand why he was soooo frustrated at the end. You don't become a 7 time world champion without taking calculated risks. Third place would have resulted in a 1 point spread between him and Max, going into Austin for the next race.

Lewis is a "Master" when it comes to tire preservation, and as far as track conditions went, a dry(drier) line had definitely emerged for the final 10 laps. There were no puddles, no standing water, no aquaplaning. he could (and did) cool his tires on the straights whenever he needed to, without losing time. His race engineer told him he would have probably lost the position anyway,,,,, and pitting him with only 6 laps to go, simply "ensured" he lost the position. The guys with the laptops beat their own driver once again.

Ocon went the full race without pitting, and Ocon is no Lewis Hamilton.

FWIW, I just re-watched the end of the race (last 10 laps actually) Lewis finished just over 8 seconds behind Perez, despite having lost 24 seconds in the pits.


----------



## Bart.s

I'll seriously doubt on whether Hamilton would have made it till the end. This is a picture from Ocon's tire at the end:


Ocon didn't had to charge through the field and was also lapped, so had to do 1 round less. Could Hamilton have made it to the end? Sure, he could have. But he also could have had a puncture and falling even further behind. I don't think Mercedes was going to take that chance.


----------



## Lakeshow

hard to say what would have been the best decision for lewis/merc towards the end of that race but at least the two contenders got their engine penalties outta the way and we can watch them battle it out rest of way for the title. exciting stuff


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> I'll seriously doubt on whether Hamilton would have made it till the end. This is a picture from Ocon's tire at the end:
> 
> 
> Ocon didn't had to charge through the field and was also lapped, so had to do 1 round less. Could Hamilton have made it to the end? Sure, he could have. But he also could have had a puncture and falling even further behind. I don't think Mercedes was going to take that chance.




After the race, there was a Sky Sports segment that showed Hamilton walking by his stack of tires. The cameraman took a close-up look, and Lewis's tires were in FARRRRR bettter condition. No blistering,,,, no cord showing through the rubber. Lewis had actually been nursing his tires through the whole race, because he was on a possible no-stopper right from the very beginning.

Red Bull's team boss, Christian Horner said after the race that Mercedes had so much more raw pace than the Red Bulls,,,, up to 15 km/h difference on the straights. He was also amazed how much downforce Lewis's car was running, and commented that even with no DRS, the Mercedes was faster than "with" DRS open. He probably meant faster than "other" cars with DRS open.

When Lewis pitted, he was 42 seconds ahead of Ocon.


----------



## Bart.s

Bobby2shots said:


> After the race, there was a Sky Sports segment that showed Hamilton walking by his stack of tires. The cameraman took a close-up look, and Lewis's tires were in FARRRRR bettter condition. No blistering,,,, no cord showing through the rubber. Lewis had actually been nursing his tires through the whole race, because he was on a possible no-stopper right from the very beginning.
> 
> Red Bull's team boss, Christian Horner said after the race that Mercedes had so much more raw pace than the Red Bulls,,,, up to 15 km/h difference on the straights. He was also amazed how much downforce Lewis's car was running, and commented that even with no DRS, the Mercedes was faster than "with" DRS open. He probably meant faster than "other" cars with DRS open.
> 
> When Lewis pitted, he was 42 seconds ahead of Ocon.



Mercedes had indeed the upper hand for raw pace, those mercs were fast. But looking at Lewis' tires:

They look dodgy to me. Could he have made it till the end? He very well could have. But there also was a big risk of a DNF, and that would have ruined Lewis' championship, so they played it safe. IMO, they should have pitted earlier, so lewis could have taken more advantage of the new tires, or not at all. But we'll never know


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> Mercedes had indeed the upper hand for raw pace, those mercs were fast. But looking at Lewis' tires:
> 
> They look dodgy to me. Could he have made it till the end? He very well could have. But there also was a big risk of a DNF, and that would have ruined Lewis' championship, so they played it safe. IMO, they should have pitted earlier, so lewis could have taken more advantage of the new tires, or not at all. But we'll never know




The reason they didn't pit earlier was twofold,,,, 1. they were hoping the track would dry and that they'd be able to go to slicks, and 2. team radio reports that even switching to new intermediates was not working, and those drivers who had switched, were actually losing time after the switch.

I don't know why Karun Chandhok would have resorted to posting such an extremely high-contrast image to try to show an exagerrated view of "some" degree of degradation. If you've recorded the race, take a look at the Sky Sports cameraman's "live" view of the tires, and you see virtually zero blistering. There was only 6 or 7 laps left in the race when they called Lewis in. (end of lap 51). The track had no standing water at that point. It was too dry for new inters, and too "damp" for full slicks. Humidity was remaining steady at 94%, so there was no indication the track would dry farther, and Lewis was on the podium (P3) at that point, and leading Perez by 13 seconds.

Overall, Mercedes still outscored Red Bull in this race (35 points vs 33), and that was all they cared about. They sacrificed 5 team-points, but Lewis got screwed for 5 additional points in the driver's standing. Toto always says "we are racers",,,,,,, I think he should change that to "we are an insurance company". This only reinforces my belief that Christian Horner is by far,,,, the best team boss out there. Would Horner have called in Max in this same scenario??? I think we both know the answer to that one.


----------



## VicWire

This analys shows Hamilton (and @Bobby2shots ) was wrong and the team was right when they called him in the first time, and that P5 was where he would finish, late tire change or not. He might have been able to hold Leclerc of for forth , bit pushing thoose old tires to do that would have been a huge risk.


----------



## Lakeshow

nice video, good analysis to help understand all the possible scenarios. no pit def looks to carry the biggest risk for potentially not the greatest reward.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Oh really?? I seem to hear a lot of "maybe if this happens,,,, and possibly that happens,,,,, or might have so and so happen, or could have done this or that. Go to the 10:53 point in your video, where you get a freeze frame of Lewis's rears in pit lane, and you tell me if those tires couldn't have last 6 laps. Even Jolyon's own graph shows Perez "possibly" catching up to Lewis on lap 58, the final lap. Good luck getting by though.

In your video, Toto says he saw a "dramatic drop off" in Lewis's tires,,,, the graph shows clearly that this was NOT the case,,,, there was a "gradual" drop-off, but that was the same for the other cars as well. The graph was basically showing how the tires were responding to emerging track conditions. The final 10 laps were on a "damp" track,,, with a slowly emerging "dry line",,, no standing water. Wets were not good, but still too wet for full slicks. A bald intermediate was ideal in that scenario.

I'll try to find the video of Hamilton looking at his tires after the race. Unfortunately, I don't get Sky Sports in my region. I've got it on my TV recording, but no way to transfer that at the moment.


----------



## Bart.s

I think Palmer's analysis is pretty solid. Whether Hamilton would have made it till the end and what position he would have been in is going to be up for debate. I think Mercedes made the right call the first time, pitting in lap 41, so Hamilton could have gotten through the graining phase and fight for positions.

At this point in the championship, you just can't gamble anymore.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> I think Palmer's analysis is pretty solid. Whether Hamilton would have made it till the end and what position he would have been in is going to be up for debate. I think Mercedes made the right call the first time, pitting in lap 41, so Hamilton could have gotten through the graining phase and fight for positions.
> 
> At this point in the championship, you just can't gamble anymore.



I gave your post a "like", because I agree with the first call-in,,,, to a degree. Other cars which had pitted at that same point, were reporting over their team radio that they were getting "no gain in performance", and, some reported actually dropping in performance.

I disagree completely on the "gamble". Would Max have pitted under those circumstances? What about Ayrton, or Michael Schumacher? Hamilton was not reporting an issue with his tires,,, it was the engineers who said they saw a "temperature drop in the rears". 7 laps left, and Hamilton was P3,,, a full 13 seconds ahead of Perez. Hamilton could have reduced his lap time by 2 seconds per remaining lap, and still kept the position. Mercedes conceded 10 points, 7 laps before the end of the race. 

P.S. I edited out Shovlin's comment about "risk of a puncture". Apparently, the site that posted that puncture quote, was was reporing on the 2020 Turkish GP.

I agree that the team "played it safe". The issue I have is "the spirit of racing". As Toto always says "we, are racers". Bull. With a 13 second lead, and only 7 laps to go, they throw in the towel.


----------



## Bart.s

I do agree with you with Mercedes always being very conservative when it comes to taking a gamble, but then again, they didn't had to the last couple of years. Last couple of years, Mercedes had the championship in the pocket by this time in the season. RB did like to take a gamble, but usually didn't have anything to lose.

@Bobby2shots Mercedes now even predicting possible P8  








Mercedes predict Hamilton would have finished P8 without late tyre stop in Turkish GP | Formula 1®


Finishing P5 and losing the lead of the championship to Max Verstappen – the Turkish Grand Prix could have gone better for Lewis Hamilton. But according to Mercedes, it could have gone a lot worse, with the team reckoning Hamilton could have finished as low as P8 had he run to the end without...




www.formula1.com


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> I do agree with you with Mercedes always being very conservative when it comes to taking a gamble, but then again, they didn't had to the last couple of years. Last couple of years, Mercedes had the championship in the pocket by this time in the season. RB did like to take a gamble, but usually didn't have anything to lose.
> 
> @Bobby2shots Mercedes now even predicting possible P8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mercedes predict Hamilton would have finished P8 without late tyre stop in Turkish GP | Formula 1®
> 
> 
> Finishing P5 and losing the lead of the championship to Max Verstappen – the Turkish Grand Prix could have gone better for Lewis Hamilton. But according to Mercedes, it could have gone a lot worse, with the team reckoning Hamilton could have finished as low as P8 had he run to the end without...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.formula1.com



Toto's covering his a55.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> I do agree with you with Mercedes always being very conservative when it comes to taking a gamble, but then again, they didn't had to the last couple of years. Last couple of years, Mercedes had the championship in the pocket by this time in the season. RB did like to take a gamble, but usually didn't have anything to lose.
> 
> @Bobby2shots Mercedes now even predicting possible P8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mercedes predict Hamilton would have finished P8 without late tyre stop in Turkish GP | Formula 1®
> 
> 
> Finishing P5 and losing the lead of the championship to Max Verstappen – the Turkish Grand Prix could have gone better for Lewis Hamilton. But according to Mercedes, it could have gone a lot worse, with the team reckoning Hamilton could have finished as low as P8 had he run to the end without...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.formula1.com



Nowwwww it comes out,,,,Bart.s, did you read some of the quotes in the post you entered above? Check this out,,, this is from James Allison, Mercedes chief engineer;

Even following his Lap 50 pit stop,* Hamilton remained frustrated by the decision to stop, telling engineer Pete Bonnington over team radio: “We shouldn’t have pitted… I told you!”* But while Allison did believe the seven-time champion’s original starting set of tyres _could_ have made it to the end of the race, he added that Hamilton’s pace would have been “dismal” by that point… *“Yes, in all likelihood, we would have got to the end of the race on one set of tyres, **able to circulate without difficulty**,” said Allison.

Ocon did that for example, and our car typically runs its rubber better than many of our competitors. So yes, we would have got to the end of the race. The question is, how quick would we have been? And the evidence there is pretty clear: We would have been very slow." *
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, go back to Jolyon Palmer's chart and analysis. Check where Perez "possibly" catches Hamilton for P3, and it shows lap 58,,,, the final lap......................................
I rest my case,,,let's have a beer... You can pick up the tab


----------



## Bart.s

Haha well, yeah, like I said before, he could have made it till the end, Ocon did, so Hamilton also could have made it, albeit I still think it was a risk.

Allison also predicted P8 on those tires, so pitting and P5 isn't such a bad deal in that case


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> Haha well, yeah, like I said before, he could have made it till the end, Ocon did, so Hamilton also could have made it, albeit I still think it was a risk.
> 
> Allison also predicted P8 on those tires, so pitting and P5 isn't such a bad deal in that case



I suppose you noticed that virtually all of the after-race interviews dealt with Hamilton, and his tire issues. Valtteri won, but that got very little attention after the race. The Mercedes engineers gave me the impression they were trying to cover their own butts for a crappy, gutless call.

Jolyon Palmers' graph had to come from somewhere, and I presume it came from Mercedes' data. The graph clearly shows "actual current time",,, plus the "probable" future results with a pit-stop,,, and, "probable" future result without a pit-stop. There were zero,,,, i repeat ZERO other cars projected to catch Hamilton before lap 58,,, the final lap,, and that car was Perez. Hamilton was 13 seconds ahead of Perez when he was called in. Perez "might" have caught Hamilton, but then, he'd have had to get by. Good luck with THAT one.  Worst case scenario, Hamilton would have been P4.

When Hamilton came out of the pits, he almost immediately called in over team radio that he was experiencing severe graining on the new intermediates,,,, and that was because the track was too dry for new inters. He should have stayed on the older tires because they were perfect for those specific track conditions. There were plenty of team-radio messages from the other teams who had stopped,,,, and they ALL complained about performance drop-off after pitting for new inters. 

When Hamilton got on team radio and said "We shouldn't have pitted,,,,, I TOLD you", that occurred "after" the pit stop. No wonder he was pissed. Mercedes gave away Hamilton's 13 second lead with only 7 laps left. Look at Hamilton's pit-stop video again. At the 3:09 point in the video, you get a clear view of Hamiltons' rear tire, and they're smooth, with no graining, no blistering. 

Allison, gave two very different and conflicting messages. Why do you suppose that happened? I suspect one message was the honest truth, and the other was the corrected-truth "cover the team's a$$" message. Someone must have "set Allison straight",,,, and the only person who could do that, is Toto. This is starting to smell like 2016 all over again, when Hamilton's car was suffering seemingly mysterious issues and DNF's on a regular basis, while Nico Rosberg's car had virtually no issues. If you recall, in 2016 Toto had switched all of Hamilton's mechanics over to Nico's side of the garage,,, and Nico's mechanics over to Hamilton. He's done it this year as well, as far as I know.


----------



## Jovidah

How is it the engineers fault??? If Hamilton had come in when they originally told him to when Perez did he would have easily secured third. Was only a matter of time before he'd have passed him if they pitted at the same time. 
The whole situation at the end could have been completely avoided... at the end they were just stuck between a rock and a hard place having to choose between essentially keeping fingers crossed or limiting damage. 
What kind of conspiracy BS reasons could the engineers have to _deliberately sabotage their own team_?


----------



## Bobby2shots

Jovidah said:


> How is it the engineers fault???
> 
> Allison confirmed that they could have finished with "no issues"
> 
> If Hamilton had come in when they originally told him to when Perez did he would have easily secured third.
> 
> Other teams who had pitted, were reporting s drop in performance due to graining.
> 
> Was only a matter of time before he'd have passed him if they pitted at the same time.
> 
> As it turns out, Hamilton was P3,,,, already AHEAD of Perez by 13 seconds.
> 
> Forget about the fact they pitted him late,,,, they put on the WRONG TIRES when they did pit him. There were all sorts of team radio messages saying inters were NOT the way to go due to the current track conditions. Did you not actually watch the race??? Or, listen to team radio???? Did you record the race?


----------



## JaVa

Hamilton ignored the first call to pit, He could have ignored the second one. He made the choice to turn the wheels towards the pit entry. 

And yes Merc is easy on the tires and yes Hamilton is THE wizard in tire care and he probably could have made it to the finish line. But even more so, if he felt it was better not to pit just ignore the radio like he did before and he's done so many times. 

But, he is also sensational at regrouping and coming back stronger. He'll take the pole next race and in the race drive to a dominant win. That's how he always deals with setbacks.


----------



## Jovidah

I watched the race, and heard Hamilton go out of his way to overrule his engineers when they called him in. Had he listened to them in the first place the whole situation would have been avoided. 

And ask Vettel how well it went without inters... He could barely keep it on the track.


----------



## Bart.s

Bobby2shots said:


> Allison, gave two very different and conflicting messages. Why do you suppose that happened? I suspect one message was the honest truth, and the other was the corrected-truth "cover the team's a$$" message. Someone must have "set Allison straight",,,, and the only person who could do that, is Toto. This is starting to smell like 2016 all over again, when Hamilton's car was suffering seemingly mysterious issues and DNF's on a regular basis, while Nico Rosberg's car had virtually no issues. If you recall, in 2016 Toto had switched all of Hamilton's mechanics over to Nico's side of the garage,,, and Nico's mechanics over to Hamilton. He's done it this year as well, as far as I know.



I do remember the 2016 season, where indeed, Hamilton had quite some trouble with the car. Also remember the mechanics switch and Hamilton not being happy about it. If I remember correctly, he said he would elaborate about it in a book when he retires. On the other hand, I've also read that it is not uncommon in F1 teams to switch mechanics, to create harmony and not an us vs. them within the team. I haven't heard anything about a mechanics switch this year though.

I've read the last part of your post a couple of times, but still not sure what you are hinting at. Mercedes working against Hamilton?


----------



## Bobby2shots

Jovidah said:


> I watched the race, and heard Hamilton go out of his way to overrule his engineers when they called him in. Had he listened to them in the first place the whole situation would have been avoided.
> 
> And ask Vettel how well it went without inters... He could barely keep it on the track.



You're not getting it..... Hamilton was going for the win,,,, right from the start of the race. That meant he was running a no-stopper. He was .4 of a second per lap faster than anyone else all weekend. Had he not been held up by Tsunoda for a while, Hamilton would have been P-1 by lap 44. Because of that, Hamilton was nursing his tires throughout the race,,,, he simply didn't need to pit. They were aware that the tires could go the full distance, as Ocon proved. There's more;,,,,

Those cars that HAD pitted, were reporting over their team radio that they were experiencing severe graining, and a drop in performance. After the drop-off, they started improving their times as their tires wore. This was an indication that worn intermediates were the way to go at that stage of the race and existing track condition., and Hamilton realized this. As the track dried in the latter half of the race, there was no standing water,,,, only dampness. Too damp for full-on slicks, but ideal for worn intermediates with a narrower band of "slickness", and still having tread at both edges of the tires. Vettel's slicks simply put too much bald surface on the damp track to shed water and he was aquaplaning. Hamilton, had just the right ratio of tread and "slick surface".


----------



## Jovidah

Are you delusional? Going for the win? How? Bottas was miles ahead in a similar car. Same with Verstappen. Leclerc _tried _going for the win on one set of tires and guess what... it failed miserably. And you can't both run faster than everyone else and nurse your entires the entire race. Please... I get it, you're a Hamilton fanboy, he's the next coming of christ who can do no wrong and if he ever makes a bad call himself a scapegoat must be found, but please... this is just getting stupid. P3 would have been pretty solidly secured if he pitted along with Perez, and it's his own fault for trying to gamble by staying out that it backfired.

'Worn interemediates were the way to go'.... have you actually watched the race yourself? Leclerc was a sitting duck. He pitted late as well... and it was similarly a bad call that lost him positions.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Jovidah said:


> Are you delusional? Going for the win? How? Bottas was miles ahead in a similar car. Same with Verstappen. Leclerc _tried _going for the win on one set of tires and guess what... it failed miserably. And you can't both run faster than everyone else and nurse your entires the entire race. Please... I get it, you're a Hamilton fanboy, he's the next coming of christ who can do no wrong and if he ever makes a bad call himself a scapegoat must be found, but please... this is just getting stupid. P3 would have been pretty solidly secured if he pitted along with Perez, and it's his own fault for trying to gamble by staying out that it backfired.
> 
> 'Worn interemediates were the way to go'.... have you actually watched the race yourself? Leclerc was a sitting duck. He pitted late as well... and it was similarly a bad call that lost him positions.



You argue "opinions and beliefs". Try arguing on data and facts. Bottas was on a one-stopper. He was also running a low-downforce set-up, which was harder on the tires.


----------



## Bobby2shots

JaVa said:


> Hamilton ignored the first call to pit, He could have ignored the second one. He made the choice to turn the wheels towards the pit entry.
> 
> And yes Merc is easy on the tires and yes Hamilton is THE wizard in tire care and he probably could have made it to the finish line. But even more so, if he felt it was better not to pit just ignore the radio like he did before and he's done so many times.
> 
> But, he is also sensational at regrouping and coming back stronger. He'll take the pole next race and in the race drive to a dominant win. That's how he always deals with setbacks.



Hi JaVa,

Actually, Hamilton didn't ignore the call to "box,box,box",,,, he said "Why???, I'm doing fine?". Bono, his race engineer said he thought it was best, based on the data. Lewis in return said, "one more lap???? Bono said"OK, we'll rethink it on this end while you go around", and he never came back to Lewis until lap 51. Those weren't Bono's exact words, but you get the idea.


----------



## JaVa

Yeah, true. Didn't really mean it that literally. They said box, he didn't. Hamilton made that decision. not the team.

And sure the next time he was pushed harder to pit, but if he was so sure and would've not come in, what could they do? Hamiltons race craft is probably best in the business and he has a history of disregarding any requests or commands if he felt it was not catering to his career. Think of all the times he butted heads with Rosberg and Alonso. All the times he was told to back down, but he never did. A sure cine of a champion. 

Not saying it Was Hamiltons fault, just that if he felt that strongly, why come in and regret later?

Good thing Bottas got his act together and came thru for the team when it was needed the most. He was like a machine that day and obliterated the competition (Hamilton included). Just look at his quickest laps. He just wanted to show how he was just controlling the race and wanted everyone to see how much he had pace in store if needed. Where has that guy been the whole season?

I think a lot of things still went Hamiltons way even if they might (or not?) have made a mistake pitting?

If anyone else has a bad day, they end up in the bottom half. When Hamilton has a bad day he is fifth. I think over all decently managed damage control from Merc. And like it's been said before, as MB has been dominating so long that they are used to playing it safely the long game rather than risking anything. It's served them pretty darn well so far. 

So fun and exciting season IME.


----------



## Bobby2shots

JaVa said:


> Yeah, true. Didn't really mean it that literally. They said box, he didn't. Hamilton made that decision. not the team.
> 
> And sure the next time he was pushed harder to pit, but if he was so sure and would've not come in, what could they do? Hamiltons race craft is probably best in the business and he has a history of disregarding any requests or commands if he felt it was not catering to his career. Think of all the times he butted heads with Rosberg and Alonso. All the times he was told to back down, but he never did. A sure cine of a champion.
> 
> Not saying it Was Hamiltons fault, just that if he felt that strongly, why come in and regret later?
> 
> Good thing Bottas got his act together and came thru for the team when it was needed the most. He was like a machine that day and obliterated the competition (Hamilton included). Just look at his quickest laps. He just wanted to show how he was just controlling the race and wanted everyone to see how much he had pace in store if needed. Where has that guy been the whole season?
> 
> I think a lot of things still went Hamiltons way even if they might (or not?) have made a mistake pitting?
> 
> If anyone else has a bad day, they end up in the bottom half. When Hamilton has a bad day he is fifth. I think over all decently managed damage control from Merc. And like it's been said before, as MB has been dominating so long that they are used to playing it safely the long game rather than risking anything. It's served them pretty darn well so far.
> 
> So fun and exciting season IME.



Hamilton, as well as being so fast,,, has always been a gentleman on track. 7-times world champion,,,, a record nobody thought could ever be achieved after Schumacher/Ferrari era. I get a kick out of watching Jenson Button talking/reflecting about his time as Lewis's team mate, Jenson just smiles and shakes his head in amazement of just how fast Lewis was.

Lewis pitted because he is a team player. They called him in, and despite the fact that he knew it was the wrong call, he came in anyway. Losing 2 positions was on the team,,,, not Lewis.

Although Lewis had started P11, he made it to P5 by lap 14, then P4 by lap 34 after being held up for quite a while behind Tsunoda,,, then Lewis was P3 (podium) by lap 48. (10 laps to go at that point)

Valtteri, who started the race on the front row, remained P1 until lap 37, then dropped to P2 until lap 46. He retook the lead from Leclerc after Leclerc pitted on lap 46. By lap 48, Leclerc had dropped by 3 positions, and stayed there 'til the end of the race.

The race data clearly showed that those drivers who had pitted, lost time and position by switching to new intermediates,,, especially in the latter stages of the race when a drier line was starting to emerge.

Carlos Sainz also put in a heck of an effort. He started from the back row and was P9 by lap 16. He finished P8. He had a terrible pit-stop and lost approximately 6 seconds in the pits.

Most of the pit stops occurred between lap 34 and lap 38.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

On from Turkey to the USA in Nov. we will have 
our   turkey's.


----------



## Bart.s

Yeah, COTA. Usually a Mercedes/Hamilton stonghold. Next 2 races after that, Mexico and Brazil, are both high altitude circuits where RB usually had the upper hand. Last 3 races, a toss up. Anyway, next season you US guys will have 2 races, as Miami is being added.


----------



## Bobby2shots

F-I-N-A-L-L-Y,,, we got to see a full race,,, no safety cars. What a great drive by Max, and a superb job by team Red Bull.

One thing mystifies me though; how did Max have DRS in the final laps, when he was in the lead? Hamilton's DRS didn't open at the end of lap 55/beginning of final lap 56, but Max's did. How is that possible???? Hmmmm. I think Max was less than one second ahead at that point. I'll replay it to check the gap.

Yep, at the start of lap 56 (Final lap) Lewis was .879 behind Max. You see Max's DRS activate, but not Lewis's;,,,, ***????


----------



## Koop

Max had DRS because he was less than 1 second behind a back marker in the detection zone. I guess Hamilton didn't get under one second until he was past the detection zone. No conspiracy here.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Koop said:


> Max had DRS because he was less than 1 second behind a back marker in the detection zone. I guess Hamilton didn't get under one second until he was past the detection zone. No conspiracy here.



I'm not thinking "conspiracy",,, I simply want to know how Max's DRS would work when he's in the lead. Can the lead car use DRS on a backmarker that he's lapping? He's not passing for "position" at that point.

I can understand Hamiltons' DRS not working if he had already resigned himself to finishing second,,, but that doesn't make sense either, given the .879 second gap, with 1 lap remaining.


----------



## Koop

Bobby2shots said:


> I'm not thinking "conspiracy",,, I want to know how Max's DRS would work when he's in the lead. Can the lead car use DRS on a car that he's lapping?



Yes.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Well I was expecting Hamilton to go more aggressive & try to pass Max in final laps, he had fresher tires. Max must have had good tire management to keep the lead & win the race.

Excuse my ignorance but what is DRS 

My nephew who was just here on his honeymoon is F1 fan & went to this race. He is a car guy I'm leaving him my 1/18 model collection. He & Janice are Hamilton fans, I'm rooting for Max this was a good win for him.
Like to see two red bull Hondas on podium again. 
Perez had a lot of Mexican fans there today in Texas. Good to see him put another Honda engine on the podium .

Hopefully he can do it again next race is Mexico.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart S.,,,,, what say you?? Enquiring minds wanna know.  (referring to DRS to pass back-markers when you're P1 and not passing for track position)

According to Wikipedia it's OK. I wonder if the FIA agrees. I trust Wiki about as much as I trust a used-bridge salesman.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> Well I was expecting Hamilton to go more aggressive & try to pass Max in final laps, he had fresher tires. Max must have had good tire management to keep the lead & win the race.
> 
> Excuse my ignorance but what is DRS
> 
> My nephew who was just here on his honeymoon is F1 fan & went to this race. He is a car guy I'm leaving him my 1/18 model collection. He & Janice are Hamilton fans, I'm rooting for Max this was a good win for him.
> Like to see two red bull Hondas on podium again.
> Perez had a lot of Mexican fans there today in Texas. Good to see him put another Honda engine on the podium .
> 
> Hopefully he can do it again next race is Mexico.



DRS is *D*rag *R*eduction *S*ystem. There are designated areas on the track where DRS can be used to reduce drag from the rear wing. A flap will open, allowing some air to pass through the opening in the wing, reducing drag, and increasing that car's speed, and increasing the chances of passing the car in front. Once you reach the end of the DRS zone, the wing-flap closes, increasing that car's downforce. There has to be a gap of no more than 1 second between cars, in order for DRS to be activated. Typically, under normal conditions, DRS is not permitted on the first 3 laps of a race.









DRS: The Drag Reduction System explained - Racecar Engineering


Formula 1's new adjustable rear wings explained, the thinking behind them and the mechanical systems that operate them




www.racecar-engineering.com


----------



## Jovidah

DRS on back markers has been a thing for quite some time (could be since its introduction, not sure on that). It's nothing out of the ordinary.


----------



## Bart.s

Yes, you will get DRS if you are behind any car and has been since the introduction of DRS. It doesn't matter if this are back markers.


----------



## mgardiner

It was a great race! And put my team back on top in my Fantasy F1 league.


----------



## JaVa

Such a great race. Loved all the wheel to wheel action. 
Sensational defensive last few lap run from Max for the win. Couldn't believe he made it.
Mad rush for the lead from Hamilton in the start and exciting pressure at the end. 
Steady form from Perez for once. 
What the... happened to the last race winner? It's always so up and down with Bottas. 
Too bad for Kimis spin and missing the points, but still some very entertaining driving from him until then. 
Alonso was just all over the place, pointless, but engaging. 
All in all good stuff. So much fun to watch.


----------



## Bobby2shots

JaVa said:


> Such a great race. Loved all the wheel to wheel action.
> 
> What the... happened to the last race winner? It's always so up and down with Bottas.


The finish result wasn't very different from the starting grid. Considering that Bottas started 9th because of an engine swap grid penalty, he did reasonably well by moving up three positions; from P9 to P6.

Vettel did reasonably well and was one of the biggest track position gainers; started 18th, and finished in the points , P10

Regarding Alonso,,,, both of the Alpine cars were DNF, along with Gasly at Alpha Tauri. Yuki Tsunoda, his team-mate, finished 9th.


----------



## Lakeshow

Yeah, great race overall and red bull once again successfully used the undercut. Wouldn’t mind max and lewis swapping wins next few races so that the championship comes down to the last race.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Lakeshow said:


> Yeah, great race overall and red bull once again successfully used the undercut. Wouldn’t mind max and lewis swapping wins next few races so that the championship comes down to the last race.



100% agree. The next two races favour Red Bull, then the last three favour Mercedes. Could be interesting, but if Red Bull wins both Mexico and Brazil, it's basically over. It may already BE over.


----------



## Lakeshow

Agreed, momentum certainly seems red bull way. Hard to imagine max finishing off the podium right now other than a DNF. Merc and lewis have very little room for error.


----------



## Koop

JaVa said:


> Such a great race. Loved all the wheel to wheel action.
> Sensational defensive last few lap run from Max for the win. Couldn't believe he made it.



I didn't see any defensive lines from Max. Lewis wasn't close enough to make Max alter his lines. He maintained optimal braking points and corner entry to keep Lewis outside of DRS range where it counted. Sensational drive by both drivers - they extracted all they could from their cars on this difficult track.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Max got really lucky on the final lap. Hamilton had narrowed the gap to under 1 second by the start of the final lap, (.879 actually) Max's DRS engaged because he was close enough to Mick Schumacher, and that's what allowed Max to get DRS and gain just enough time,,, less than 1/8th of a second,,,, to open the gap over the 1 second mark between himself and Hamilton, and that meant Lewis's DRS would not/could not open. When they crossed the finish line, Max was ahead by 1.333 seconds. Hamilton was quicker leading up to the final lap, having made up over 6 seconds in the previous few laps. That was a nail-biter.


----------



## JaVa

Koop said:


> I didn't see any defensive lines from Max. Lewis wasn't close enough to make Max alter his lines. He maintained optimal braking points and corner entry to keep Lewis outside of DRS range where it counted. Sensational drive by both drivers - they extracted all they could from their cars on this difficult track.



Everyone expected Lewis to catch Max about three laps before the finish line and just fly by Max with much fresher tires and being so much faster in the last laps. Max had to drop his lap times to manage his tires and let Lewis catch him. Lewis did catch Max as expected with his aggressive attack, but by some miracle Max was able to hold Lewis off with just absolutely a brilliant drive to maintain first place. No one expected that. Not even Max. 

So I meant he was able to defend his position against a faster car pressuring him during the last laps. And yes he did get a bit lucky with Lewis driving a bit wide in that corner and Mick giving him the DRS help. Not sure Lewis could have passed either way, but it would've been interesting to see. They would've touched for sure with neither backing down.


----------



## Bobby2shots

It'll be interesting to see how engine reliability factors in to the 5 remaining races. I believe Mercedes have added 3 over the last 2 races (2 for Valtteri, and 1 for Lewis), so they have spares in the bank to finish the season. I think Red Bull took 2,,, I'll have to check. I'd hate to see the season end based on DNF's.

Now I can't say for certain,,,, but,,,, there's a rumour afoot that Lewis will be packing a Glock-19 for the final race in Abu Dhabi.


----------



## Bart.s

Can Hamilton's Mercedes engines last the rest of the season? – MPH


Lewis Hamilton is now on his fourth Mercedes engine – with strange noises coming from its power units, can he make it through six more races without using another? asks Mark Hughes




www.motorsportmagazine.com





Article about the engines. It's from October 15th, so doesn't include bottas' 6th engine from last weekend. I wouldn't be surprised if Hamilton also takes another ICE at Mexico, where Mercedes is usually less competitive.

Also found an interesting article from a Brazilian site, it's unconfirmed, but an interesting read nonetheless:









EXCLUSIVO: 630 gramas podem mudar o destino da UP Mercedes


Por: Adauto Silva 630 gramas. Esse pode ser um peso mágico para o motor de combustão interna da Mercedes.




www.autoracing.com.br


----------



## Keith Sinclair

What a Show in Mexico Same podium as Texas.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> What a Show in Mexico Same podium as Texas.



Yes, and what an excellent showing , not only for Red Bull, but for Honda as well. (P1, P3, and P4 Gasly) Glad to see Checo on the podium,,, his dad was sooo proud of his son. Too bad about Valtteri being taken out by Ricciardo. Looks like Ferrari has also overtaken McLaren in the team championship race. Max pulled a great move in turn 1 by out-braking Lewis, and that was race-over from that point.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Really want Honda to win in their last year in F1.

Yeh he came within less than second behind Hamilton the Mexican crowd was going 
Nuts. Not that easy to pass him though. Wasn't going to let Max get extra points by getting bumped to third.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> Really want Honda to win in their last year in F1.
> 
> Yeh he came within less than second behind Hamilton the Mexican crowd was going
> Nuts. Not that easy to pass him though. Wasn't going to let Max get extra points by getting bumped to third.



I believe Honda said it will be working closely with Red Bull next year at Red Bull's new engine-building facility. Honda won't be an engine-supplier, but they'll be doing design and development work I believe. Bart S probably has the specific details on that.


----------



## JaVa

Yeah Max and Red Bull were unstoppable. 
Hamilton gave a good effort just wasn't enough, But that's what everyone expected from this track anyway.
Nice to see Checo start to be more comfortable in the team and car more consistently and that's starting to show in his results. 
Bad luck just keeps hunting Bottas.
Gassly giving yet another stellar performance proving his future worth for the big team. 
Would've liked to see more action from Vettel, Räikkönen and Alonso trio rather then just securing points safely. Still job well done.
Crazy good atmosphere.


----------



## Bart.s

Bobby2shots said:


> I believe Honda said it will be working closely with Red Bull next year at Red Bull's new engine-building facility. Honda won't be an engine-supplier, but they'll be doing design and development work I believe. Bart S probably has the specific details on that.



Yes, Honda will indeed be working closely with Red Bull Powertrains for the first year. Honda will continue to assist building the engine and give trackside and race support. RBP will also take over employees in the UK from Honda. In 2023, RBP will take full responsibility.

SOURCE

Also enjoyed the race yesterday, albeit it was a bit uneventful. Brilliant overtake by Max though. Also happy to see Checo got the podium. And Bottas... can't seem to catch a break... first lap spin, stuck behind Ricciardo for the whole race and a slow pit stop. 

But what I really enjoyed was Bottas being called in for softs to take the fastest lap, Max slowing him down in his fast lap, he then overtakes Max and Max starts playing politics, saying over the onboard how Bottas is slowing him down, got him blue flagged and having to pit again. Absolutely brilliant


----------



## JaVa

Bart.s said:


> But what I really enjoyed was Bottas being called in for softs to take the fastest lap, Max slowing him down in his fast lap, he then overtakes Max and Max starts playing politics, saying over the onboard how Bottas is slowing him down, got him blue flagged and having to pit again. Absolutely brilliant



Yeah true. An absolutely brilliant and fun game of chess. Red Bull almost got away with it, but Bottas got it at the very last lap.


----------



## Corradobrit1

I loved the radio comms on the cool down lap. Congrats Max, you won the race and got the extra point for fastest lap. Correction, Bottas got it on the final lap. Consolation for a miserable race for Bottas. 
Was hoping Perez could have done more towards the end. He certainly had the legs but the aero behind Hamilton prevented any further advancement.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Last race in Texas Hamilton was hunting down 
Max couldn't quite do it. 

This race Perez was hunting down Hamilton when he got within a second behind thought maybe had slight chance.


----------



## Jovidah

Yeah the last few rounds showed the exact same problem Hamilton had last race; it's one thing to drive towards a car, it's another to get past it. The closer you get the more the aerodynamics of the current cars start working against you. Looks like the backmarkers weren't exactly working in Perez's favor this time either... though it's hard to say if things would have worked out differently without them.


----------



## Bart.s

It's indeed a common problem. Getting close is no problem, but when drivers get within the dirty air of the car in front of them, they lose down force up to 50% and tires and engine will overheat, making overtaking difficult. F1 also knows this to be a problem, so on the new '22 cars a lot of the down force will come from the ground effect instead of wings, giving cleaner air behind the car and thus should make overtaking easier.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I wasn't aware that so much vintage races on famous EU tracks. My brother when he was here installed a Roku stick on our big screen TV. Now we get so much stuff. Watching races at Spa, Silverstone, Monaco etc. on UTube 
Most in 2000's up to 2018. 20's, 30's, 50's, 60's.
Camera's mounted so have cockpit view in these vintage race cars. The sounds, visuals are awesome. Guys actually racing & passing at 
Monaco going through the tunnel a lot didn't count the laps. In a 1957 Maserati 250F. When race is over winner takes off his helmet & does a victory lap waving to the crowds. When he pulls into a narrow access road other cars are lined up for the 60's era racing. My better half asked what kind of cars are those?


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Stirling Moss won at Monaco 3 times. 1956 in the Maserati 250F. He praised the car saying it handled so well at Monaco not faster than Ferrari but handling gave him the Victory. 
Won in 1960 & 1961 in the Lotus 18. It is said 1961 was one of greatest victories getting the win in slower lotus 18 than the Ferrari Sharknose making it's debut in 1961 winning many races that year.


----------



## Bart.s

F1 TV is also a great source to watch the old races. They have a racing archive. Season summaries '70 - '80, and from the '80's full seasons and races. Great stuff.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

In 1961 American Phil Hill won the F1 world Championship. Did it in the excellent first Ferrari rear engine Sharknose.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

1.5L six to think that modern F1 is 1.6L highly 
complex hybrid.


----------



## Bart.s

Sweet, nice ones!


----------



## Bart.s

Hamilton risks qualifying exclusion after Brazil F1 DRS infringement


Lewis Hamilton faces a stewards' investigation over a DRS technical infringement following Formula 1 qualifying for the Brazilian Grand Prix on Friday.




au.motorsport.com





Would mean a start from the pitlane. Sure, would be a slam dunk for max, but as a fan, it would be an horrible ending to this brilliant season if true.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Not over till it's done. Max has to finish high in remaining races, these two have tangled several times this season resulting in crashes.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> Hamilton risks qualifying exclusion after Brazil F1 DRS infringement
> 
> 
> Lewis Hamilton faces a stewards' investigation over a DRS technical infringement following Formula 1 qualifying for the Brazilian Grand Prix on Friday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> au.motorsport.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would mean a start from the pitlane. Sure, would be a slam dunk for max, but as a fan, it would be an horrible ending to this brilliant season if true.



*Max has now also been called to the stewards;*

*UPDATE*
At just before 10pm local time the stewards announced there would be no decision until Saturday morning.

"The Stewards have adjourned the hearing relating to Document 18 of the 2021 FIA Formula 1 São Paulo Grand Prix as they await further evidence that will not be available until the morning," an FIA spokesman said.

They also confirmed the rear wing assembly of Hamilton's car will be removed and impounded overnight.


*The story then took another turn as at 10.30pm local time the stewards announced that they had summoned Max Verstappen and a Red Bull representative to appear before them at 9.30am local time on Saturday for an "alleged breach of Article 2.5.1 of the FIA International Sporting Code".*

*That article states that "in the Parc Ferme, only the officials assigned may enter. No operation, checking, tuning or repair is allowed unless authorised by the same officials or by the applicable regulations."

Verstappen was seen approaching Hamilton's car in Parc Ferme after qualifying, with a video taken by a fan at the circuit apparently showing him touching the rear wing of the Mercedes - possibly the alleged breach for which he has been summoned.*

*It means both title contenders could face penalties this weekend, but no decisions will be made until Saturday.*


----------



## Bart.s

Streamable Video


Watch this video on Streamable.




streamable.com




The video, where Max was checking Lewis' wing and why Max also had to report to the stewards. Supposedly it was Adrain Newey and Paul Monoghan from RB who visited the FIA one hour before quali to report Mercedes. That new Netflix drive to survive season is basically writing itself .


----------



## Lakeshow

the drama is just crazy right now. hopefully lewis and max still get a chance to race each other and it doesn't turn into a one sided affair.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

So many rules hard to keep track, penalty for dropping a new ICE in the car.


----------



## MarcelNL

I am baffled by how much fuzz is created over anything in F1, give all the same car that team mechanics prepare and adjust within certain limits, the cars rotate per race. Currently there are so many rules that violating one seems a matter of time. I want to see drivers race not 'legal' teams, I'll read CNN when I want some of that...


----------



## Bart.s

MarcelNL said:


> I am baffled by how much fuzz is created over anything in F1, give all the same car that team mechanics prepare and adjust within certain limits, the cars rotate per race. Currently there are so many rules that violating one seems a matter of time. I want to see drivers race not 'legal' teams, I'll read CNN when I want some of that...


True, F1 is 50% politics and drama. Sometimes it's annoying, but sometimes it's part of the fun.


----------



## big_adventure

Keith Sinclair said:


> So many rules hard to keep track, penalty for dropping a new ICE in the car.



Well, that's been the case for a long time. Back in 2014, when Honda first came back, their driver got a 60 place grid penalty for too many engine swaps. They also handed out a few 30 and 35 place penalties. I love useless penalties.


----------



## Bart.s

€50k fine for max. Verdict on Lewis' wing still to come.


----------



## Bart.s

And that's Hamilton disqualified. Starts from pitlane during the sprint race. And he still has to eat the 5 grid penalty on Sunday. Slam dunk for max. What a way to end this season.


----------



## MarcelNL

I wonder by how much they missed that 85mm...


----------



## Bart.s

MarcelNL said:


> I wonder by how much they missed that 85mm...


Could be as little as 1mm. They use a tool for this, a 85mm circle on a wand that also measures NM. The circle can't go through gap, even when pushed at 10NM.


----------



## MarcelNL

I read that, I still wonder how much they missed it...not that it matters, because they failed the regulation, just curious by how much...I assume it was no accident.


----------



## Bart.s

MarcelNL said:


> I read that, I still wonder how much they missed it...not that it matters, because they failed the regulation, just curious by how much...I assume it was no accident.


Not sure by how much they missed it. I have found a video when they were measuring the gap. Not the best video, but if you look at the right side of the wing, you can clearly see the circle going through.








Mercedes illegal rear wing


Watch "Mercedes illegal rear wing" on Streamable.




streamable.com


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Think I read somewhere that next year will have standard wings on all the cars. 

In cycling they have a tablet that reads the frames of the bikes to detect any magnetic force. I wonder if any pro cyclist actually put small motor in frame. I've never heard of it.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Electric bikes is good idea for senor citizens.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Keith Sinclair said:


> I wonder if any pro cyclist actually put small motor in frame. I've never heard of it.


Its a thing.


----------



## Bobby2shots

MarcelNL said:


> I read that, I still wonder how much they missed it...not that it matters, because they failed the regulation, just curious by how much...I assume it was no accident.



The standard test requires that an 85mm disc can not pass vertically between the upper and lower wing sections. The wing is tested at various points across its' width. In Hamiltons' case, the wing conformed to standards, and was ok across most of its' width. The disc only passed through one specific area across its' width, which Toto claimed was damaged during qualifications.

The wing was exactly the same part as had been used, and previously tested multiple times during the entire season, and the wing passed all previous tests. The FIA said in a statement, "There was obviously no "intent" on breaking the rules. It must have been very close, because the scrutineers used four different gauges to test that area.

It may be noteworthy that in Mexico, and at the USA Grand Prix's, Red Bull (Max's car), had an issue with the rear wing. The FIA decided to allow Red Bull to repair the wing during Parc Ferme restrictions. This is usually not permitted.

In Lewis's case, the FIA seized the wing, and did not allow Mercedes to repair their wing, and, the stewards only notified Mercedes of their ruling two hours before the start of the sprint race.

During the sprint, I believe Toto said something along the lines of "F--k them all, and their politics"


----------



## Bart.s

I also don't believe there was intent in breaking the rules, as the disc only passed trough at the outer sections of the wing, not the inner sections. And the wing was indeed replaced by a same spec one, hence Hamilton could start from p20 instead of the pitlane. But IMO it's was damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for the punishment.

But wow, remind me again to never write of Hamilton, the pace on that guy during the sprit race. I was thinking p7 - p8 maximum. He is starting p10 now and podium should be possible. Keeps the WDC interesting. And toto said indeed at the end: "brilliant job, damage limitation, f*** them all"


----------



## Bart.s

Keith Sinclair said:


> Electric bikes is good idea for senor citizens.


You would like it in Holland


----------



## big_adventure

Keith Sinclair said:


> Think I read somewhere that next year will have standard wings on all the cars.
> 
> In cycling they have a tablet that reads the frames of the bikes to detect any magnetic force. I wonder if any pro cyclist actually put small motor in frame. I've never heard of it.



Yup, it happened in the Tour de France and the Giro a few years back - that's why the test the bikes with MADs now.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

After the Sprint & race today hard to count Hamilton out. You know he wants greatest # of 
F1 championship wins. 

I saw a UTube of Hamilton & Tom Brady after they had both won their 7th championships. I guess they follow each other.

It was older saw it after found out about Hamilton's dominance because of this thread. 

I think it will be tough for Brady to repeat esp. 
how Rams are beefing up their team around Stafford. 

Three in races to go I hope Honda can get more juice out of their engine to stay in the race for the championship.


----------



## Bart.s

Yeah, great race. Happy that the FIA didn't interfere with Lewis his first overtake attempt and just let them race. I thought with all the penalties from Lewis, this weekend would be a slam dunk for Max. But with the Mercs showing this pace, WDC is wide open again. It's been a long time since the season was this exciting.


----------



## Bobby2shots

MarcelNL said:


> I read that, I still wonder how much they missed it...not that it matters, because they failed the regulation, just curious by how much...*I assume it was no accident.*



The wing was fine on one side, and in the center. On the damaged side, it was off by 0.2mm. (1/127th of an inch.









Mercedes: Hamilton’s F1 wing failed tests by just 0.2mm


Mercedes has revealed that Lewis Hamilton’s disqualification from qualifying at Formula 1’s Brazilian Grand Prix was triggered by his DRS failing tests by just 0.2 millimetres.




www.motorsport.com


----------



## Bobby2shots

Hamilton I presume, will be happy to get out of Brazil. Check this out;









Hamilton summoned over seat belt rules breach in Brazilian GP


Lewis Hamilton has been summoned to the stewards following his victory in Formula 1's Brazilian Grand Prix following a potential seat belt rules breach.




us.motorsport.com


----------



## Moooza

It was an incredible race. I really want Max to win the championship, but Hamilton just figured out that last corner and how to use his superior top speed down the straight - awe-inspiring.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Lewis did drive well but he and Bottas were also assisted by some convenient virtual and actual safety car activity. The new engine was demonstrating its advantage on Sat and Sun. Its going to be an exciting finale and my gut feeling is that barring DNF's, Hamilton has this championship wrapped up and will pip Max at the post


----------



## tomsch

Great weekend of racing! It's going to come down to the wire between Max and Lewis. With only rounds 20-22 it's going to be an amazing season ending and I'm happy not to see Lewis simply dominate. This is why I record every FP, Quali, and race on my DVR


----------



## tomsch

Oh and I love Seb's radio comment about touching Lewis' wing LOL


----------



## Bobby2shots

The "Turn 4" incident may not be over quite yet. Michael Masi has confirmed that the stewards did not have the forward view from Max's cockpit camera when rendering their decision,,,,, but,,,, they have requested it from the television broadcaster. Something's not quite right here. It might be noteworthy that Liberty Media, the television rights owner, who also happens to own Formula 1, has that footage. Why was it not provided to the stewards? You've got to ask yourself, was this a "good for TV ratings" decision?


----------



## Bart.s

Bobby2shots said:


> The "Turn 4" incident may not be over quite yet. Michael Masi has confirmed that the stewards did not have the forward view from Max's cockpit camera when rendering their decision,,,,, but,,,, they have requested it from the television broadcaster. Something's not quite right here. It might be noteworthy that Liberty Media, the television rights owner, who also happens to own Formula 1, has that footage. Why was it not provided to the stewards? You've got to ask yourself, was this a "good for TV ratings" decision?


Yes, I read that. Apparently, due to bandwidth limitations on the live system, they can't have every camera on every car active. Which cameras are live at any moment is decided by a director and FIA only has access to the cameras that are live at the moment. The rest of the footage has to be downloaded from the car's onboard storage after the race.

But I'll doubt anything comes out of it, as it was noted but not investigated.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> Yes, I read that. Apparently, due to bandwidth limitations on the live system, they can't have every camera on every car active. Which cameras are live at any moment is decided by a director and FIA only has access to the cameras that are live at the moment. The rest of the footage has to be downloaded from the car's onboard storage after the race.
> 
> But I'll doubt anything comes out of it, as it was noted but not investigated.



Well, Toto looks very pissed off at the moment, and he said "Diplomacy is over". Toto is not one to make frivolous talk, and I don't blame him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he decides to put a brand new ICE in each car, and each race from now until it's all over. There's at least 35 million Pounds at stake here.

I don't "buy" the bandwidth limitation argument for one moment. How convenient that the two front runners going neck and neck for the lead, would have either camera not operating at that very moment. Outrageous.


----------



## Bart.s

Bobby2shots said:


> I don't "buy" the bandwidth limitation argument for one moment. How convenient that the two front runners going neck and neck, would have either camera not operating. Outrageous.


Both rear cameras were turned on. The bandwidth limitation is what I've been reading and sounds plausible to me. However, it doesn't really matter, as all the footage in stored in the car and can be downloaded after a race for review.


Bobby2shots said:


> Well, Toto looks very pissed off at the moment, and he said "Diplomacy is over". Toto is not one to make frivolous talk, and I don't blame him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he decides to put a brand new ICE in each car, and each race from now until it's all over. There's at least 35 million Pounds at stake here.


Well, I'm a max fan, but I think he does have a point for what happened at turn 4. Penalties have been given for this in the past. As the incident was only noted, the stewards only look at the footage that's available at the time. When investigated, they also look at telemetry, steering input and brake points. IMO, it should have at least be investigated.

On the whole 0.2mm gap debacle, don't tell me that Toto wouldn't have done the exact same thing when given the chance. Mercedes arguing about the RB flexiwing and that sub 2 sec pitstops are 'unsafe' come to mind.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> Both rear cameras were turned on. The bandwidth limitation is what I've been reading and sounds plausible to me. However, it doesn't really matter, as all the footage in stored in the car and can be downloaded after a race for review.
> 
> Well, I'm a max fan, but I think he does have a point for what happened at turn 4. Penalties have been given for this in the past. As the incident was only noted, the stewards only look at the footage that's available at the time. When investigated, they also look at telemetry, steering input and brake points. IMO, it should have at least be investigated.
> 
> On the whole 0.2mm gap debacle, don't tell me that Toto wouldn't have done the exact same thing when given the chance. Mercedes arguing about the RB flexiwing and that sub 2 sec pitstops are 'unsafe' come to mind.



I agree about the pit-stops. Mercedes sucks, not only in duration, but also the call-to-pit. They're not pro-active,,,, they simply react to what others are doing.

That said, Max was allowed to repair his broken wing under Parc Ferme conditions, twice,,,, both in Texas and in Mexico. Why was this even permitted by the FIA, let alone the fact that he nor the team were penalized? Mercedes on the other hand, had their wing immediately seized by the FIA, and Merc was not even allowed to see the wing, nor, did they get the ruling that they were being disqualified until 2 hours before the sprint. Do you see a little disparity here???? Also, on what basis did Adrian Newey and Paul Monaghan base their investigation request to the FIA, before being allowed to see the wing themselves???? Why would the FIA even entertain such a request??? Granted on "suspicion" from a competitor ??????

Then,,, why did Christian Horner immediately call the stewards after Max forced Lewis off the track???? Horner KNEW at that precise moment, that his driver had f--ked up, and could possibly get a "race-over-for-him" penalty. In a court of law, that's known as "consciousness of guilt".

So to cap it off, the FIA sees fit to "fine" Lewis for unfastening his shoulder harness in order to reach for a flag that someone trackside is giving him "after the race",,,, a rule that supposedly has not been enforced in over 20 years,,, but Max gets no penalty for turn 4???????? No wonder Toto's pissed.


----------



## Bart.s

Bobby2shots said:


> I agree about the pit-stops. Mercedes sucks, not only in duration, but also the call-to-pit. They're not pro-active,,,, they simply react to what others are doing.
> 
> That said, Max was allowed to repair his broken wing under Parc Ferme conditions, twice,,,, both in Texas and in Mexico. Why was this even permitted by the FIA, let alone the fact that he nor the team were penalized? Mercedes on the other hand, had their wing immediately seized by the FIA, and Merc was not even allowed to see the wing, nor, did they get the ruling that they were being disqualified until 2 hours before the sprint. Do you see a little disparity here???? Also, on what basis did Adrian Newey and Paul Monaghan base their investigation request to the FIA, before being allowed to see the wing themselves???? Why would the FIA even entertain such a request??? Granted on "suspicion" ??????
> 
> Then,,, why did Christian Horner immediately call the stewards after Max forced Lewis off the track???? Horner KNEW at that precise moment, that his driver had f--ked up, and could possibly get a "race-over-for-him" penalty. In a court of law, that's known as "consciousness of guilt".
> 
> So, the FIA sees fit to "fine" Lewis for unfastening his shoulder harness in order to reach for a flag that someone trackside is giving him "after the race",,,, a rule that supposedly has not been enforced in over 20 years,,, but Max gets no penalty for turn 4???????? No wonder Toto's pissed.


From what I've read, both in Austin and Mexico, max's wings were cracked, but still met regulations, hence they were permitted to change under parc ferme. Lewis' wing did not met regulations.

On what basis did Adrian and paul base their request? I'm really not sure, but my best guess would be: RB has, like every other major F1 team, a photographer that takes HD images of the cars when passing the straight. This is mostly used for checking tires and damage during a race, stuff like that. But it is ofcourse, also used to spy on other teams. They initially went to the FIA with the complaint that the Mercedes wing was bending too much under speed and came with 'evidence' (my guess, photos from their photographer). It was only during the inspection that the FIA found out of the gap being too big.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Yes, the gap was too big,,,, by 0.2mm,,, and you're telling me that a photographer would see this miniscule issue as a hi-speed car passes by? I think that would be impossible,,, and, since the wing passed all tests on one side, and in its' mid-section,,, why would Mercedes not be allowed to see why their own wing didn't comply,,, specifically, caused by an accident during qualifying. Even the FIA stated after doing the tests, that there was no evidence of "intent". So,,,, why wait 'til 2 hours before the sprint the next morning, to tell Mercedes why the wing didn't comply, nor did Mercedes get the chance to fix it like Max did in Texas and Mexico? And the biggest laugh of all,,, why was Mercedes disqualified.

Regarding Parc Ferme , from what I've seen, nobody other than FIA officials can enter Parc Ferme,,,, not even to check something, nor do repairs of any kind. Max "checked" Lewis's wing after quali, and got a 50,000 Euro fine for his trouble, plus a few points on his license. Somethings' not jiving here. How can Red Bull determine their wing was "cracked" without "checking"???


----------



## MarcelNL

Could it be that the discussion about the implications and hence a penalty, and if so which one, or not... took FIA long?
I mean, regardless of when you hear you're disqualified, you're there already and it's a post facto.


----------



## Bobby2shots

MarcelNL said:


> Could it be that the discussion about the implications and hence a penalty, and if so which one, or not... took FIA long?
> I mean, regardless of when you hear you're disqualified, you're there already and it's a post facto.



Mercedes still has not gotten their wing back from the FIA as of the finish of yesterday's race, despite the stewards specifically stating that there was no "obvious intent" to break the rules. So which is it? Cause for DSQ??? or get permission to repair the wing. Without the wing, it is impossible to mount a defense. Mercedes specs for their wing is posted in their library, and has been checked many times throughout the season, and always approved by the FIA.


----------



## MarcelNL

so what, I suspect they'll get it back at some point....if they want it -and need it....for now, that wing is no good as it's out of spec..Mercedes obviously has more than one or they would not have raced. How is the intent or not to break rules relevant for giving that wing back? Did Merc ask for it yet? I mean...I do not follow F1 closely at all, yet a defense is also going to be post facto, and still an avenue open to Merc...so where is the rush?


----------



## Bobby2shots

At two hours before the Sprint, Mercedes was unaware of what the exact problem was with the wing. Since they've used the same wing design all season long, and since all their replacement wings were identical, and since the FIA had already tested and approved them many times throughout the season , what do Mercedes do insofar as a legal replacement goes? Will the wing need to be repaired? re-designed? 2 hours to race-time????


----------



## big_adventure

Bobby2shots said:


> Yes, the gap was too big,,,, by 0.2mm,,, and you're telling me that a photographer would see this miniscule issue as a hi-speed car passes by? I think that would be impossible,,, and, since the wing passed all tests on one side, and in its' mid-section,,, why would Mercedes not be allowed to see why their own wing didn't comply,,, specifically, caused by an accident during qualifying. Even the FIA stated after doing the tests, that there was no evidence of "intent". So,,,, why wait 'til 2 hours before the sprint the next morning, to tell Mercedes why the wing didn't comply, nor did Mercedes get the chance to fix it like Max did in Texas and Mexico? And the biggest laugh of all,,, why was Mercedes disqualified.
> 
> Regarding Parc Ferme , from what I've seen, nobody other than FIA officials can enter Parc Ferme,,,, not even to check something, nor do repairs of any kind. Max "checked" Lewis's wing after quali, and got a 50,000 Euro fine for his trouble, plus a few points on his license. Somethings' not jiving here. How can Red Bull determine their wing was "cracked" without "checking"???



When RB replaced parts in Parc Fermé, both times they had reported the break BEFORE the car was in Parc Fermé, and, both times, the part was checked and found to be legitimately broken. By rules, you can replace those parts, and both the outgoing and the incoming part will be checked for compliance _if possible._ Here, Merc never reported anything, then were caught in violation. Hence the penalty.


----------



## big_adventure

Bobby2shots said:


> At two hours before the Sprint, Mercedes was unaware of what the exact problem was with the wing. Since they've used the same wing design all season long, and since all their replacement wings were identical, and since the FIA had already tested and approved them many times throughout the season , what do Mercedes do insofar as a legal replacement goes? Will the wing need to be repaired? re-designed? 2 hours to race-time????



That is not true. The wing was known to have failed well prior to two hours before. The official ruling came down 2 hours before. But everyone knew that the wing had failed the post-session test. 

They have not used the exact same wing or even the exact same wing design all season - teams change wings all the time. They use different configurations for different circuits. They just have to respect the rules of the Formula, which includes precise measures for DRS opening.


----------



## MarcelNL

big_adventure said:


> They use different configurations for different circuits. They just have to respect the rules of the Formula, which includes precise measures for DRS opening.



ultimately Merc is responsible to use a wing that is compliant, for this one that was broken and for whatever others they have in stock. I really do not see the issue other than a long wait but I may be missing parts as I am not that interested in all the faff around the F1.


----------



## big_adventure

MarcelNL said:


> ultimately Merc is responsible to use a wing that is compliant, for this one that was broken and for whatever others they have in stock. I really do not see the issue other than a long wait but I may be missing parts as I am not that interested in all the faff around the F1.



Of course - this wasn't some new rule that was sprung on them. They decided to push the limits, and if you do that, you run the risk of violating a rule, whether intentionally or not. If I were designing a mechanical thing that had to respect 85mm of tolerance, I'd either (and most likely) build in a hard stop at 84.5mm OR set it for 83 if there is a risk of it loosening somewhat during the race. Not having the hard stop, to me, opens the door to cheating, letting the system open further then permitted guessing that you might slip through the check. Unfortunately, the car's performance was _soooooo_ much better than every other car on the track in the straights (and that's all car, has nothing to do with the driver) that they were basically guaranteed to get this checked. Merc has tried to claim that they were just 0.2mm over the limit, but that's their marketing department talking. F1 has not made any such announcement. They don't actually test exactly how far the thing opens, they just push through a fixed-size ring. If it passes through, the win fails. It could pass by a mm, or by a meter, it's just a fail.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Mercedes: Hamilton’s F1 wing failed tests by just 0.2mm


Mercedes has revealed that Lewis Hamilton’s disqualification from qualifying at Formula 1’s Brazilian Grand Prix was triggered by his DRS failing tests by just 0.2 millimetres.




www.motorsport.com













Toto Wolff fumes over Red Bull's parc ferme wing changes | PlanetF1


Mercedes boss Toto Wolff spoke of double standards after Red Bull made wing changes again under parc ferme conditions.




www.planetf1.com





Bottom line; Mercedes won the race,,,, and with a legal wing. Was there a difference in performance or results between the race wing and the quali wing? NO!!!!!


----------



## Bobby2shots

Turn 4 incident video released;









F1 releases Verstappen’s Brazil GP onboard footage


Formula 1 has finally released the onboard footage from Max Verstappen's RB16B during that contentious move against Mercedes' Lewis Hamilton




www.motorsportweek.com





Toto asks for review after new evidence released by F-1;









Mercedes request review of Max Verstappen/Lewis Hamilton incident in Sao Paulo


Mercedes have requested a review into the Turn 4 incident between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton at Interlagos.




www.planetf1.com





Jolyon Palmers' analysis;









Jolyon Palmer's Analysis: Did Verstappen deserve a penalty for clash with Hamilton at Interlagos?


Former F1 driver and analyst Jolyon Palmer dissects all angles, telemetry and archive footage to understand Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton's clash on Lap 48 at the 2021 São Paulo Grand Prix. Check out the full episode on F1TV.Formula1.com




www.formula1.com


----------



## Keith Sinclair

These two are both excellent drivers. Expect more blocking cutting off lines all kinds of stuff to blab about. 

Three more races to decide championship


----------



## Bobby2shots

Yep, exciting season for sure. I just wish there was a bit more depth in F-1, so we'd see perhaps 3-4 teams fighting it out each race, instead of the same two all the time. All too often, the TV directors are covering some inconsequential battle for p-16 vs P-17, etc, because it's the only real "battle" on the track at that moment. We need more teams with deeeep pockets, competing at the front.

One future improvement I can see, would be to completely re-structure the start. As it stands now, the fastest qualifiers start in front, and the back-markers have to travel quite a distance just to get to the line where P-1 started. What they should do in my opinion, would be to start even more separated on the track, and time their laps from each of their start positions,,,, not a specific finish line. There would be in effect, 20 finish lines. They have the technology now to do that. There'd also be less danger going into turn-1. (less traffic)

Apparently, the 2022 cars will have re-vamped air-flow out the back-end, reducing turbulence for cars that are behind. This hopefully will allow more passing, and less tire degradation from following in "dirty air".

I also think DRS needs to be re-evaluated.

That said,,, what about that Pierre Gasly;, he's been doing an incredible job for Alpha Tauri this season. Apparently, Horner's taking a second look at Pierre as a possible promotion to the big team.


----------



## Bart.s

Agreed that F1 definitely could use more depth in terms of teams competing for the championship. Ferrari and McLaren always used to be a forces to be reckoned with, sadly this hasn't been the case last couple of years. I hope they can step up next year, as they certainly have the resources and drivers to do so.

From what I read, DRS is going to be re-evaluated. If the new '22 cars aero packages work as desired, there wouldn't be a need for DRS, as overtaking should be easier. But, without sounding too negative, when there are new technical regulations being introduced, usually 1 or 2 teams will get it right from the start, while others are playing catch-up. Just look at the whole hybrid engine era and how long it took RB. Really hoping that won't be the case this time.

And true, Gasly is driving one hell of a season in the Alpha Tauri. Nice to see he has gotten another chance there. Wouldn't be surprised if he would end up with Alpine.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Agree that the start could use some work. Guys 
starting from the back have much more difficult 
passing to do. 

Then again what Hamilton did Sunday coming from 10th to 2nt made it look easy. Maybe the 
new ICE they dropped in for Brazil. If Mercedes 
kicked it up a notch Honda has to adapt so Max 
has a chance to be world champion.


----------



## Bart.s

RB is banking on the engine drop off from the Mercs. The Mercedes engines seem to have difficulties with the engine performance once wear and tear have set in. Honda on the other hand, are much more consistent.


----------



## Bart.s

I heard Mercedes are going to introduce a new wing for Bahrain:


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> RB is banking on the engine drop off from the Mercs. The Mercedes engines seem to have difficulties with the engine performance once wear and tear have set in. Honda on the other hand, are much more consistent.



Let's not forget that Toto announced at the end of last year, that Mercedes was going to allocate most of their 2021 development budget to developing the 2022 car. The current Merc is basically their 2020 car with very few developments, so it's no surprise that when they do add a new development that there's a significant performance increase. In fact, I criticized Toto's decision several times earlier in this thread about ignoring the current season. Red Bull on the other hand, was continually developing their 2021 car.

There's also been much info posted on a bad batch of engine blocks that Mercedes has had to contend with this year. Apparently, that problem has now been identified and resolved. Supposedly, their old engine blocks were developing hairline cracks as the season wore on, resulting in a gradual and premature drop-off in performance. Their wing has nothing to do with their performance increase as we've seen in the Brazil race result.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again; don't be surprised if Toto opens up his 2021 development-wallet and adds a few more new ICE units before the end of the season, possibly to both cars. The performance gain would outweigh any grid penalties incurred, and, the cost would be easily outweighed by the potential prize-money involved.. This could boil down to budget-cap restrictions. If Mercedes pulls off a 1-2 in Qatar, we might be down to 3 points separating Max and Lewis for the last two races in Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi. If Lewis wins Qatar, and Max finishes 4th, we're essentially tied going into the last two races. The "fastest-lap point" could play a significant role in deciding this years' championship.

Let's also keep an eye on what happens with Toto's appeal and the stewards' review regarding the Brazil Turn 4 incident. A 5-second time-penalty for Max could swing 3 points less for Max, to a 3 point gain for Valtteri. Valtteri finished just over 3 seconds behind Max in Brazil. (3.08 seconds)

The new Saudi Arabia street circuit, is being billed as the world's fastest street race,,, fasten your seatbelt baby,,,, this is going to get hot.
Lights out,,,,, go, go, go, go goooooo!!!!!


----------



## Bart.s

I don't think that the FIA will give max a 5 sec penalty. This would indeed put max at P3 in Brazil. But then RB would, quite fairly, open a protest that Max was just cruising the car home. Bottas got the call to 'go get him', so he was going all out. But would Max have known at the moment he got a 5 sec penalty, he would have done everything to keep the gap over 5 sec and probably could have done it. If a penalty comes out of this, a grid penalty for next race would sound more reasonable to me.

But yeah, if Mercedes keeps this pace up, the tracks don't favour Max. Bahrain has a lot of straights with slow corners, jeddah a fast circuit with a 1km straight. This could very well be decided in Abu Dhabi.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Bart.s said:


> I don't think that the FIA will give max a 5 sec penalty. This would indeed put max at P3 in Brazil. But then RB would, quite fairly, open a protest that Max was just cruising the car home. Bottas got the call to 'go get him', so he was going all out. But would Max have known at the moment he got a 5 sec penalty, he would have done everything to keep the gap over 5 sec and probably could have done it. If a penalty comes out of this, a grid penalty for next race would sound more reasonable to me.



It's possible also, that the FIA might reject the "Right to Review" request; but I'd imagine all hell will break loose if that happens. If they do proceed with a time penalty, it would have to be consistent with past incidents and rulings,,, although this particular incident was quite unique, given that both cars left the track, and to the extremes of that departure.

So far, all we (the public) are seeing is the onboard video. We've yet to see the onboard telemetry. (steering input, ,brakes,,"G" forces, etc.

If Max slowed in the final laps, I can't see how this would have any baring on a penalty decision. When assessing a penalty, the stewards are not allowed to consider the consequences of that penalty,,,, only whether an offense had occurred.


----------



## Bart.s

I'll guess we find out today. The hearing is today at 17:00 local. This is to review if 'the right to review exists' and whether 'a significant and new element is discovered' (Max's onboard).


----------



## Bobby2shots

Yes, the request is under "Right of Review; article 14.1.1 of the International Sporting Code". There's also the fact that the incident was not investigated to begin with. (Stewards declare "no investigation necessary")

Bottom line here is, the FIA has got to come to terms with consistent application of the rules. It's the inconsistency that is causing this uproar. Decisions such as was handed down, strongly suggest favouring one team over another. If this incident had occurred with back-markers, would the decision to not investigate have been the same?

From the FIA;
An International Automobile Federation (FIA) statement said: “In accordance with Art. 14 of the International Sporting Code (ISC), and following the petition for review by Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1 Team, lodged on 16 November 2021, the Team Manager and such witnesses as the Competitor may request, up to three, are required to appear via video conference (invitation by separate cover) at 17:00 hrs Local (Qatar) on Thursday, November 18 2021.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Don't know much about last modern decades, but brand dominance is nothing new. Bugatti in 1920's, Alfa Romeo early 1930's. Mercedes Silver Arrows & Auto Union mid to late 1930's. 
Post war 1940's Alfa Romeo then Ferrari & Maserati. Mercedes countered Italian dominance with Hi tech cars early 1950's. In 1955 Mercedes dropped out of racing after one of their cars killed 83 people.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> In 1955 Mercedes dropped out of racing after one of their cars killed 83 people.



Yep, that was LeMans, 1955. Terrible event. The magnesium bodied Mercedes went up in flames like a blow-torch.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Yes by early 1950's the cars were fast & crowds
we're packed by the thousands near the road as if it was a bicycle race.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Qatar Grand Prix news;

Max Verstappen (P2) is summoned to the stewards Sunday, for ignoring double-waived yellow flags in Qatar qualifying.

Bottas (P3) and Sainz (P7) also summoned to the stewards for not slowing for single yellow flags in quali.

Hamilton starts on pole (P1),,, clean side of the track. Lewis has approx a .45 second gap to P2. Amazing laps from Gasly (P4) Alonso (P5), and Ocon (P6). Not sure what happened to Ocon, because he's now shown as starting (P9)

Perez didn't make it into Q3, and will start 11th. If Verstappen, Bottas and Sainz get grid penalties, Gasly will likely start P2.

Ironically, it was Gasly who went off the track, exploding his front wing, and causing his right front tire to explode just as qualifying was ending, scuttling Verstappen's Bottas's, and Sainz's last flying laps.

Norris starts P6, ahead of Sainz's Ferrari,, Tsunoda was also very fast, and starts P8, and Vettel P10. Those positions will likely change depending on what the stewards decide.

Interesting scenario develops;

Gasly has been on quite a tear lately,,, performing VERY strongly on a regular basis. For those who are new to F-1, Gasly's team (Alpha Tauri), are a Red Bull sister team, and Gasly would desperately like to be promoted to the big team. If Gasly starts P-2 next to Lewis,,,, what do you think will be going through his mind as he comes into turn-1 with Lewis, when Perez is starting 11th????? A once in a lifetime career opportunity for Gasly by taking out Lewis??? If I've thought about it. you can bet your booty he has as well, and it won't be lost with Horner either.


----------



## Bart.s

Bobby2shots said:


> Gasly has been on quite a tear lately,,, performing VERY strongly on a regular basis. For those who are new to F-1, Gasly's team (Alpha Tauri), are a Red Bull sister team, and Gasly would desperately like to be promoted to the big team. If Gasly starts P-2 next to Lewis,,,, what do you think will be going through his mind as he comes into turn-1 with Lewis, when Perez is starting 11th????? A once in a lifetime career opportunity for Gasly by taking out Lewis??? If I've thought about it. you can bet your booty he has as well, and it won't be lost with Horner either.


Hahaha I'm sure Horner, and Max for that matter, wouldn't mind this outcome. Gasly is indeed driving a solid season in the AT. I hope he will be given another chance in one of the major teams. I said it before, but I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up with Alpine. 

Perez couldn't get close in Q2, even with soft tires. He said on the team radio that they went in the worst possible window, so perhaps he was struggling with traffic? He also said that apparently RB had a new method of getting the tires in the right window .

And Hamilton's merc again being the fastest with 0.45sec. I'm really not sure where they suddenly have found the pace last couple of weekends. I'm having a hard time believing this is all engine.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Unfortunately, Alpha Tauri did not fare well today, thanks especially to Fernando, who drove a MasterClass race today. Great points for Alpine.

Horner got called into the stewards after the race, and was issued a "warning" about criticizing the FIA and the marshals who waved the yellow flags, resulting in a penalty to Max. I wouldn't be surprised if Helmut Marko also get summoned at one point; after he was very critical of the FIA in an interview with the Spanish Press. We've just gotta "Love" the FIA,,,,,,, don't we????

As for Lewis,,,, what can you say??? . Lewis was just being the 7-time World Champion that he is,,, for the 102nd time.

On to Saudi Arabia. If Lewis and Max finish as they did today, and Lewis takes fastest lap, they'll be tied,,, dead even going into Abu Dhabi for the season finale.

Great showing from team Red Bull, who outscored team Mercedes (31 points to 25 ) despite Lewis's win. (Bottas DNF) Hat's off to Checo as well, who drove a great result (P4) considering yesterday's qualifying result (P11)


----------



## Keith Sinclair

If Max can win one race he has it. Hamilton must win both. His Honda had fastest lap today. Perez passed plenty cars today having to do it again as he made pit stops. Came in forth place. 

Mercedes & Hamilton have the charge at end of season.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> If Max can win one race he has it. *Hamilton must win both.* His Honda had fastest lap today. Perez passed plenty cars today having to do it again as he made pit stops. Came in forth place.
> 
> Mercedes & Hamilton have the charge at end of season.


Actually, if Lewis wins with a Mercedes 1-2 in Saudi Arabia, he'll be in the lead, then, he'd have to finish in any position that's ahead of Max in Abu Dhabi. If they somehow end up tied at the end of the season, then whoever has the most wins, wins the championship.

Valtteri's performance will be crucial in Saudi Arabia. Don't be surprised if Mercedes drops a new ICE in Valtteri's car for the Saudi G.P. They could even add one to Lewis's car.

By the way, construction at the Saudi circuit is still not fully completed, but the race is expected to run on time. I believe Michael Masi visited the Saudi circuit this past weekend, to see how work-completion is coming along.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

It is exciting I'm rooting for Max, but Hamilton has the bit between his teeth.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> It is exciting I'm rooting for Max, *but Hamilton has the bit between his teeth*.



Maybe more importantly, so does Toto. This is the most passionate I've ever seen him. He's going to pull out all the stops. Alonso was once quoted as saying "Don't ever bet against Toto".


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Bobby2shots said:


> Actually, if Lewis wins with a Mercedes 1-2 in Saudi Arabia, he'll be in the lead, then, he'd have to finish in any position that's ahead of Max in Abu Dhabi. If they somehow end up tied at the end of the season, then whoever has the most wins, wins the championship.
> 
> Valtteri's performance will be crucial in Saudi Arabia. Don't be surprised if Mercedes drops a new ICE in Valtteri's car for the Saudi G.P. They could even add one to Lewis's car.
> 
> By the way, construction at the Saudi circuit is still not fully completed, but the race is expected to run on time. I believe Michael Masi visited the Saudi circuit this past weekend, to see how work-completion is coming along.



It seems like the penalty for dropping new ICE 
In Brazil was worth it. Why not do it again. I'm 
not really up on what is legal to do with existing ICE in the car between races. Can't they do engine overhauls using same block?


----------



## Corradobrit1

Keith Sinclair said:


> Can't they do engine overhauls using same block?


HIGHLY unlikely. Have to assume the engines are sealed at the beginning of the season to prevent shenanigans.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> It seems like the penalty for dropping new ICE
> In Brazil was worth it. Why not do it again. I'm
> not really up on what is legal to do with existing ICE in the car between races. Can't they do engine overhauls using same block?



The "block" in the older Mercedes engines was the problem,,, and was the reason they added a new engine to their engine-pool in Brazil. Mercedes had found that the older block's performance were dropping off prematurely, and they discovered that this was due to the blocks developing hairline cracks. Apparently, they had received a batch of those blocks, which were due to bad castings.

Mercedes has already stated that they'll be using the new engine again in Saudi Arabia;,,,, the same engine they used in Brazil. Mercedes did not use that new engine in Qatar. This time however, there won't be a grid penalty involved..

I know that Valtteri received a new engine a short time ago,,, but I'm not sure if that was the newest version... nor do I know if they've actually used that engine yet. I believe that was either at the U.S. Grand Prix, or perhaps Mexico. I'd have to check.

OK, I just checked, and it was at the U.S. Grand Prix.


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## Bart.s

In season engine upgrades are forbidden this season and next year there will be an engine freeze. However, there are still ways to squeeze more performance out of them. More aggressive engine mapping, more efficient battery, losing some weight somewhere to increase the BHP to KG ratio, stuff like that.

Enjoyed the race. Really, Max and Lewis are in a league of their own. It still amazes me how much faster those guys are then their teammates. With the mercs pace, Saudi should be a slam dunk for Lewis. It's going to get down to the wire.


----------



## Bobby2shots

I just checked Valtteri's performance over the last few races prior to Qatar where he DNF'd;

finished 6th at U.S. GP, started 9th
finished 15th at Mexican G,P., started on pole
finished 3rd in Brazil, started on pole

Valtteri also took engine penalties at Monza and Russia


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Don't get it your saying Hamilton can put in Ice for Saudi race with no penalty. 

What if Honda wanted to change to new engine
for Max they would get penalty.


----------



## Moooza

The max number of changes per item is below, once they exceed the max. allowed, they incur grid penalties. Timing a penalty seems to be a new strategic element, as the five grid position loss is nothing compared to the additional power of a new engine.

Internal Combustion Engine – 3
MGU-H – 3
Turbocharger – 3
MGU-K – 3
Energy Store – 2
Control Electronics – 2


----------



## Bart.s

Keith Sinclair said:


> Don't get it your saying Hamilton can put in Ice for Saudi race with no penalty.
> 
> What if Honda wanted to change to new engine
> for Max they would get penalty.


This is the new ICE for which he took the penalty in Brazil. But you take that penalty only once, after that the new ICE is in roulation and can be used whenever.


----------



## Lakeshow

lewis and max are so in sync with their cars right now it's great to watch. they've really separated themselves from the rest of the field. hopefully nothing unlucky happens in Saudi and we get to watch the championship come down to the last race.


----------



## Koop

I know some of you following this thread are fairly new to F1. This YouTube video does a great job of explaining the technical features of an F1 car. F1 Cars Explained


----------



## Bart.s

Koop said:


> I know some of you following this thread are fairly new to F1. This YouTube video does a great job of explaining the technical features of an F1 car. F1 Cars Explained


Great video. Thanks @Koop


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Thanks Koop I watched some short vids to learn about modern F1. This video was by far best I've ever seen.


----------



## Bart.s

Following up @Koop Post, here is a short video on the new F1 '22 design and the changes made to improve racing:
LINK


----------



## Lakeshow

thx for two great videos, learned a lot. the engineering is crazy


----------



## MarcelNL

Just read that Frank Williams died, a true F1 legend he was....


----------



## Bart.s

MarcelNL said:


> Just read that Frank Williams died, a true F1 legend he was....


Yeah, just read it. F1 lost a legend. Glad that he got to see a Williams on the podium one last time this year.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Amen to that. Frank led his team to 16 F-1 World Championship titles. I was a staunch Williams fan back in the days of Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve.


----------



## Bobby2shots

9 hours to go before qualifying in Saudi Arabian G.P. Ultra-fast circuit. This could be very interesting,,,, who'll emerge on pole after quali? After FP-2, Max has the best 1-lap quali-simulation over Lewis, by .01 second. Mind you, those FP-2 times can be so misleading, due mostly to unknown fuel-loads.

FP-2 Race-pace simulations show Mercedes ahead of Ferrari by .50 seconds, and ahead of Red Bull by 0.58 seconds.

The Red Bull was pretty fast today, clocking the highest speeds I've seen from them all year. I believe they hit 319 KPH through the speed trap at one point. They're probably going with a low downforce set-up, which is often problematic for the high-rake RB insofar as tire degradation is concerned. Hmmm. That might have been their quali-simulation lap.

I've got a feeling that safety-cars will play a big role in this G.P.


----------



## Bobby2shots

Well,,, what can you say? Pierre Gasly 6th in quali, and may start 5th,,,, if Max needs a new gearbox. Tsunoda also did well, and may start 7th.

The Ferrari's have also raised their game over the last few races, and Leclerc starts 4th,,, or possibly 3rd.

Wouldn't you know it, before the quali session even starts, Lewis is called to the stewards again,,,, for TWO yellow flag infractions in the practice sessions that ended up being no infraction at all. The FIA even said that the yellow flag was "accidental" (their fault). Then,,,, after closing the case without penalizing Lewis, they later re-open the case, and notify the other teams that they can protest the decision,,,, if they want to. Is there something wrong with this picture????? Why would they wait until minutes before quali to call Lewis in when the "supposed infractions" occurred in the practice sessions?????? Something smells pretty bad there.

The Honda powered cars are doing really well. The Red Bulls are faster than I've ever seen them, and so are the Alpha Tauri's.

As for the track,,, I thought at first that it would be a great track, however, I think passing will be next to impossible. I hope we're not going to be watching a "Monaco-style Parade". At the moment, it's looking like the championships will be decided next weekend at the season finale, in Abu Dhabi.


----------



## Bart.s

Yeah, what a quali. My remote almost went trough the room when max crashed that last corner. He was 0.3 ahead of Hamilton. Suprised though, the Honda's being so fast here. Thought for sure this was going to be a slam dunk for Mercedes/Hamilton. 

Just in, max's gearbox does not need replacing, so no grid penalty. When looking at the pace of those Honda's, we could be in for an exciting race. With the long straight, overtaking should be possible with DRS. For the rest of the circuit, I also think it's going to be hard.

Hamilton was indeed summoned for 2 incidents. Have to admit that I've been busy this weekend, so haven't followed everything, but one incident wasn't even a double yellow and the other incident the yellow went out a couple of hundred meters before Hamilton was there? Lot of drama because of nothing if you ask me.....


----------



## Corradobrit1

Bart.s said:


> Yeah, what a quali. My remote almost went trough the room when max crashed that last corner. He was 0.3 ahead of Hamilton. Suprised though, the Honda's being so fast here. Thought for sure this was going to be a slam dunk for Mercedes/Hamilton.


Christian Horner's expression said it all. So close yet so far. Seems like an exciting high speed track...... so long as there's at least one good overtaking spot. The downforce they are generating is incredible judging by the suspension compression and fireworks show (even with DRS activated)


----------



## JaVa

What a race!


----------



## Bobby2shots

Sad day coming up next weekend,,,, Kimi Raikkonen will be running in his final race as an F-1 driver.


----------



## Moooza

Terrible track, it made it a spectacle. Super interesting because of how tight the championship is, but no excuse, that track is not right for F1


----------



## Corradobrit1

Moooza said:


> Terrible track, it made it a spectacle. Super interesting because of how tight the championship is, but no excuse, that track is not right for F1


For me the F1 organization (Masi et al) were a major contributing factor. They didn't seem to be in control throughout the race. Sets us up for a potentially explosive final round. If both drivers fail to finish, Verstappen takes the championship. Who said F1 was boring and predictable.


----------



## tomsch

Yes that track looks more like Indy or Formula-E. It's almost like they designed the track to ensure that next weekend will even more explosive between Max and Lewis.


----------



## big_adventure

What happens, though, if Hammy takes fastest lap and they both crash out? Does he keep that point?

If I were Verstappen, given the advantages in speed the Merc cars obviously have at the moment combined with his win advantage, I'd take Hamilton out in the first corner à la Schumi. And I can't imagine that Verstappen isn't already considering this.


----------



## big_adventure

tomsch said:


> Yes that track looks more like Indy or Formula-E. It's almost like they designed the track to ensure that next weekend will even more explosive between Max and Lewis.



They didn't design the track - they just counted the piles and piles of money SA paid to hold the grand prix. Hence an obviously dangerous track and race.


----------



## Bobby2shots

big_adventure said:


> What happens, though, if Hammy takes fastest lap and they both crash out? Does he keep that point?
> 
> If I were Verstappen, given the advantages in speed the Merc cars obviously have at the moment combined with his win advantage, I'd take Hamilton out in the first corner à la Schumi. And I can't imagine that Verstappen isn't already considering this.



Yes, good point; I believe he would keep that fastest-lap point.

That said, Max has already tried taking Hamilton out,,,, on multiple occasions,,, and Masi has done nothing about it.. Max brake-tested Lewis, and what did he get in return???,,,, a ten second penalty, which was absolutely meaningless in terms of points , nor finishing position. The stewards investigation showed that Max pulled 2.4G's on his brake-test, and Max said after the race, "I don't know what happened there". So, Max has added "liar" to his growing list of "talents".

Don't get me wrong here,,, I want Max to win races,,, lots of them,,,,, it's great for the sport,,,,, but, I want him to win on merit,,, not thuggery.

I believe Masi carries much of the blame here, by letting things get wayyyy out of hand. Someone said after the race, "Formula-1 misses Charlie Whiting right about now".


----------



## Bobby2shots

Corradobrit1 said:


> For me the F1 organization (Masi et al) were a major contributing factor. They didn't seem to be in control throughout the race. Sets us up for a potentially explosive final round. If both drivers fail to finish, Verstappen takes the championship. Who said F1 was boring and predictable.



Agreed 100% about Masi.

Mind you, if both cars are taken out,,,, Mercedes wins the Constructors' title. They currently lead by 28 points. Even if Checo were to take the win, and Valtteri DNF's, Mercedes still wins the Constructors' title, and that's worth over $35 million. Horner would not be very happy with Max.


----------



## big_adventure

Bobby2shots said:


> Yes, good point; I believe he would keep that fastest-lap point.
> 
> That said, Max has already tried taking Hamilton out,,,, on multiple occasions,,, and Masi has done nothing about it.. Max brake-tested Lewis, and what did he get in return???,,,, a ten second penalty, which was absolutely meaningless in terms of points , nor finishing position. The stewards investigation showed that Max pulled 2.4G's on his brake-test, and Max said after the race, "I don't know what happened there". So, Max has added "liar" to his growing list of "talents".
> 
> Don't get me wrong here,,, I want Max to win races,,, lots of them,,,,, it's great for the sport,,,,, but, I want him to win on merit,,, not thuggery.
> 
> I believe Masi carries much of the blame here, by letting things get wayyyy out of hand. Someone said after the race, "Formula-1 misses Charlie Whiting right about now".



I can't argue with some of that - Max, as Hamilton says, pushes and goes beyond the limits sometimes.

On the specific case of the braking-induced impact, there, RB instructed Max to let Hamilton go by (Max's tires were shot and there was no way he was going to hold the lead). It had apparently been communicated to Merc, but Hamilton either didn't get the message or it wasn't sent, so Max braking was a "surprise" to Lewis. That's actually the one place I don't think the stewards should have acted. Max giving back the place for hopping the kerb... that's fair, and by the book, though still stupid to me - hopping the kerb / agressively cutting the apex was always legal back in the day (I've been watching F1 since 80) and racing never suffered for it. If you are willing to risk damage to your own car only for an edge, freaking go for it in my book.

I don't think that Max has actually tried to take Hamilton out as much as used somewhat questionable / agressive tactics to gain or hold position. I'm talking about a full-on Schumi move of just instantly crashing out your opponent in the title chase on the first lap. It's an entirely viable, if a bit dirty, way to win a championship, but it's existed as long as racing has. In the modern race game, they'd probably do some chicanery to give the title to the "victim" of the move, despite the absence of any rule justifying said action.

OTOH, they should never, ever have a GP at Jeddah again. God, what a disaster is that track.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

Max is a skilled driver even if got penalty for going off track in one of his passes. They gave him driver of the day. He made those medium tires last almost the whole race although it might have been a detriment final laps. 

Everything on the line final Abu Dhabi won't be boring.


----------



## Bobby2shots

big_adventure said:


> OTOH, they should never, ever have a GP at Jeddah again. God, what a disaster is that track.



They'll probably modify a few corners next year, in order to increase down-the-track ,,, or, around-the-bend visibility. At the very least, they'd have to upgrade the early-warning lights located before the most dangerous bends, especially the hi-speed "S" bends in sector 2. It's a miracle that there were no major pile-ups.


----------



## big_adventure

Bobby2shots said:


> They'll probably modify a few corners next year, in order to increase down-the-track ,,, or, around-the-bend visibility. At the very least, they'd have to upgrade the early-warning lights located before the most dangerous bends, especially the hi-speed "S" bends in sector 2. It's a miracle that there were no major pile-ups.



Yeah, they DID have a major disaster in the F2 race. I hope they straighten it out. Unfortunately, I think a briefcase of cash from the Saudi organizers is what's going to be done.


----------



## krx927

Bobby2shots said:


> Yes, good point; I believe he would keep that fastest-lap point.
> 
> That said, Max has already tried taking Hamilton out,,,, on multiple occasions,,, and Masi has done nothing about it.. Max brake-tested Lewis, and what did he get in return???,,,, a ten second penalty, which was absolutely meaningless in terms of points , nor finishing position. The stewards investigation showed that Max pulled 2.4G's on his brake-test, and Max said after the race, "I don't know what happened there". So, Max has added "liar" to his growing list of "talents".
> 
> Don't get me wrong here,,, I want Max to win races,,, lots of them,,,,, it's great for the sport,,,,, but, I want him to win on merit,,, not thuggery.
> 
> I believe Masi carries much of the blame here, by letting things get wayyyy out of hand. Someone said after the race, "Formula-1 misses Charlie Whiting right about now".



Nicely said! We could say more about Max, but let's stay polite.

Karma at the end catches everybody.


----------



## Bobby2shots

big_adventure said:


> What happens, though, if Hammy takes fastest lap and they both crash out? Does he keep that point?



Update; 

No,,,,only cars that finish in the top 10 qualify for the Fastest Lap Award.


----------



## Keith Sinclair

I wouldn't even want to see all the rules & regulations in modern F1 it must be pages long. Like when Max got penalized for passing using side area not considered track. The cars
are wider & longer than older grand prix racers.

Esp. on that track last week that had long fast straights going into tight turns just let them race.


----------



## big_adventure

Keith Sinclair said:


> I wouldn't even want to see all the rules & regulations in modern F1 it must be pages long. Like when Max got penalized for passing using side area not considered track. The cars
> are wider & longer than older grand prix racers.
> 
> Esp. on that track last week that had long fast straights going into tight turns just let them race.



Yeah, the whole "respect white lines" thing in modern racing is kind of crazy to me. It's gonna sound pretty boomer, but "back in my day" you drove pretty much where you wanted to drive. Wanna cut the apex by 10 feet? Go for it. You are driving over kerbs or through "non maintained surfaces" that might damage the car or blow a tire, but you are a big person, you can choose that risk.

And it's not "pages" long except if you put the "thousands of" before "pages." It's long.


----------



## big_adventure

Bobby2shots said:


> Update;
> 
> No,,,,only cars that finish in the top 10 qualify for the Fastest Lap Award.



Thanks for the update. I also went back and checked and found that, but forgot to come in with the update.

Max was lightning fast in quals today, but did it on softer rubber than Lewis, thus Max has to start on softs tomorrow as well. Which means he's highly likely to keep the lead at the start, but he's going to have to pit earlier.

Strategy idea! AlphaTauri driver (or the spectacularly worthless Perez, who should top out at "AlphaTauri driver" level) smashes out around lap 20 or so, causing a red, Max can re-tire in the pits. I don't want this to happen, but it would be funny if it did.


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## Bobby2shots

Mercedes sucks at tire strategy,,,, they go in with a "plan",,, but as soon as someone undercuts them, they panic, and throw their original strategy out the window. Lewis is easy on his tires, and quite often the call to "box,box,box" goes against what Lewis wants,,, or needs.

Red Bull seems to be running an extremely low downforce set-up, and in the past, that has not worked out so well for them because of increased tire degradation. Should be interesting to see the different strategies play out.

If Lewis and Max make it around turn-1 intact, Lewis will be hard pressed to keep within DRS range by lap 3 when DRS becomes available.

Max will definitely have to pit by lap 18 at the very latest, but his new set of hard tires should be shot by the final lap (58 lap race). If Lewis pits before lap 23, I'll be surprised, and Max will probably win. That said, Mercedes can "turn up" the engine a notch or two if they're behind in the later stages of the race. They'd have nothing to lose at that point.

Mercedes leads the Constructors' Championship by 28 points; they need 17 more points to clinch that title.

In the Drivers' Championship, the DHL Fastest Lap award will be meaningless. Both cars would have to finish P9 and P10 for a potential "tie" in points, but only if,,, P10 takes Fastest Lap, then the driver with the highest number of wins would determine who'd be awarded the Championship.


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## Bart.s

Yes


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## Bart.s

YESSS


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## Moooza

Bart.s said:


> Yes


Understatement. YYESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


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## Bart.s

F******G YESSSS


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## Bart.s

What a race!!!!!


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## Bart.s

10 years of my life


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## Bart.s

What a race! RB didn't win on speed, but on brilliant strategy.  to RB!!


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## Bart.s

Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## big_adventure

It was a pretty amazing race and season. From the controversy in lap 1 (If Max had to give the lead back last week, Lewis definitely did this week) to the generally bad communication leading to conspiracy theories among Hamilton fans for the crazy ending, it was dramatic as hell. It's pretty sad that it had to come down to that - it would have been better to watch Max come back on Lewis using fresh rubber for 6 laps rather than having 5 laps of safety car - but this did give us probably the most exciting and dramatic final lap of the season in F1 history.


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## Keith Sinclair

Shouldn't look at KKF before watch the race. 
Looking forward to watching it.


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## Corradobrit1

Merc has taken a lawyer into a meeting with the Race Director. This has still got legs.


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## WiriWiri

Ach well, congrats to Verstappen on clinching his first title. Been an exciting season

Farcical ending mind. I can understand the want to have a racing finish, but everything was so garbled and unclear at the end that you can’t blame Mercedes for being aggrieved

Hamilton‘s a better man and more gracious in defeat that I’ll ever be for sure. If I’d led the race throughout, driven beautifully, overcome a spirit Perez resistance (and the uselessness of his own teammate) and unquestionably been the fastest man I’d have been spitting feathers at such an arbitrary and farcical end, An end that wiped out his carefully accumulated advantage and put his rival right next to him, only with much fresher tires and an inevitable income. Short of attaching a comedy sized Acme anvil to the back of Hamilton’s car and asking a passing Death Star to gift wrap and tractor beam Verstappen into the lead the end couldn’t have been more manufactured.

Luck eh. But also a competition with some dubious integrity issues and something to clearly sort out. Congrats Verstappen regardless - it was a genuinely thrilling season, even if the end needed some script work


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## big_adventure

Corradobrit1 said:


> Merc has taken a lawyer into a meeting with the Race Director. This has still got legs.



Nah, it doesn't. Protest 2 refused as well. That isn't going anywhere. In any case, the only argument would be that they should have passed the other three lapped racers in front as well, but there was no competitive reason to do that, and only risks of further incidents if they did. 

The things that would have been better are:

1. Faster decision making.
2. Better communication.

But Masi isn't great at those things. Not that it's an easy job, but it's a job for which he's enormously well compensated.


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## big_adventure

WiriWiri said:


> Ach well, congrats to Verstappen on clinching his first title. Been an exciting season
> 
> Farcical ending mind. I can understand the want to have a racing finish, but everything was so garbled and unclear at the end that you can’t blame Mercedes for being aggrieved
> 
> Hamilton‘s a better man and more gracious in defeat that I’ll ever be for sure. If I’d led the race throughout, driven beautifully, overcome a spirit Perez resistance (and the uselessness of his own teammate) and unquestionably been the fastest man I’d have been spitting feathers at such an arbitrary and farcical end, An end that wiped out his carefully accumulated advantage and put his rival right next to him, only with much fresher tires and an inevitable income. Short of attaching a comedy sized Acme anvil to the back of Hamilton’s car and asking a passing Death Star to gift wrap and tractor beam Verstappen into the lead the end couldn’t have been more manufactured.
> 
> Luck eh. But also a competition with some dubious integrity issues and something to clearly sort out. Congrats Verstappen regardless - it was a genuinely thrilling season, even if the end needed some script work



TBF Hammy should have had to give the lead back in lap 1, when he did the exact same thing Max did last week and for which he DID have to give the place back. So it's not like he "deserved" his placement all that much in any case.

It was also the most thrilling last lap in the history of F1. If it had ended with the SC out, it would have been a terrible joke and _really_ unsatisfying for anybody except staunch Hamilton fans (or Merc fans, but who the hell likes a racing team? Ugh. They won the constructors cup anyway.)


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## VicWire

big_adventure said:


> It was also the most thrilling last lap in the history of F1.



Did we watch the same race?
It was obvious that Hamilton wouldn’t be able to defend when the safety car ended. Last lap was  imo.

It would have been thrilling to se Verstappen hunt down Hamilton and trying to pass him on the last laps, or if they would have been on equal tires for the last lap after the safety car and had a fight about it.

Sad way to end the best F1 season for a long time.


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## WiriWiri

big_adventure said:


> TBF Hammy should have had to give the lead back in lap 1, when he did the exact same thing Max did last week and for which he DID have to give the place back. So it's not like he "deserved" his placement all that much in any case.
> 
> It was also the most thrilling last lap in the history of F1. If it had ended with the SC out, it would have been a terrible joke and _really_ unsatisfying for anybody except staunch Hamilton fans (or Merc fans, but who the hell likes a racing team? Ugh. They won the constructors cup anyway.)



Fake drama entirely though. Always going to be an unfair fight given the difference in grip and wear - it was a foregone conclusion as soon as they ended up virtually next to each other

I’d like to have seen an exciting racing finish too. Sadly that wasn’t it - felt all so shoddy and unsatisfactory really, Agree on the inconsistency of the judgments, but random farce is no way to conclude a great contest


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## Keith Sinclair

Hamilton took the high road on camera didn't complain about finish. 

Anyway congratulations to Max & Honda


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## Bobby2shots

Latest news I've heard is that Mercedes' protest was rejected by the stewards, and Mercedes has apparently stated they're filing for an appeal at the International Court of Sport Arbitration. Apparently, they have until Thursday to file the appeal.

Hey,,,, anyone know if Masi gets a trophy too??? Afterall, he's determined the outcome.


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## Keith Sinclair

Think it's a done deal. Noticed during this season that Honda & Mercedes camps have totally different takes on things that happen on the tracks. It's about being biased to your driver. Kind of like politics in America.


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## Bobby2shots

Keith Sinclair said:


> Think it's a done deal. Noticed during this season that Honda & Mercedes camps have totally different takes on things that happen on the tracks. It's about being biased to your driver. Kind of like politics in America.



It's always about "the money", and in F-1, that means BIG money. Those championship points are worth a fortune. For example, if Mercedes had not won the Constructor's Championship, they would have lost a minimum of 35 million Euros (or perhaps dollars) in one category alone. There are several catogories in the distribution of money to the teams. Ferrari gets more money than anyone else, regardless of where they finish. That was an arrangement Bernie Eccelstone agreed to when he enticed Ferrari to come race in his newly created Formula 1.


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## tomsch

Redbull won this year because of their strategy. Even look at how Max won pole in quali with the Checo draft. Lewis is an amazing driver but you can't beat Max on the last lap with beat hards vs. fresh softs.


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## Bobby2shots

Michael Masi , now the "former" F-1 race director, is "no more",,,,, gone!!!. Poof,,,,reassigned. Gee, I wonder why.


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## Koop

Scapegoat.


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## mauichef

Because the cry baby said he would not come out of his bedroom unless Masi was history.


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## Jovidah

Yeah that's mostly a commercial decision. He just got sacrificed to appease all the Hamilton fanboys and crybabies.


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## Koop

He still has a position with the FIA. The race director function will now be split between two people - not sure if that's good or not.


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## Jovidah

If I didn't know any better I'd have thought the function was already split between Masi and Toto last year...

What I'm more curious about though is how F1 is going to handle the Russian GP that's still on the calender.


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## mauichef

The whole F1 thing is becoming a very sad joke. Between the clowns at Liberty and a few overly egotistical team owners and drivers, it is no longer a fun experience. I'm really enjoying IndyCar and will get my racing enjoyment there, plus F2 and SportsCars which still are about racing and not crying and moaning. After 60+ years, its going to be strange not watching a full season for the first time. Just cannot stomach any more of the bellyaching and hypocritical back stabbing.


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## mauichef

Koop said:


> He still has a position with the FIA. The race director function will now be split between two people - not sure if that's good or not.


Ironic considering how everyone is calling for consistency in stewards and race directors!!!!! They have probably been hand selected by Toto and Lewis! And I am not kidding! I think those 2 have pushed the FIA and Liberty into a very tight corner with threatened legal action and this is probably the only way out for them without getting really bloodied in a long ugly battle..


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## Bobby2shots

mauichef said:


> The whole F1 thing is becoming a very sad joke. Between the clowns at Liberty and a few overly egotistical team owners and drivers, it is no longer a fun experience. I'm really enjoying IndyCar and will get my racing enjoyment there, plus F2 and SportsCars which still are about racing and not crying and moaning. After 60+ years, its going to be strange not watching a full season for the first time. Just cannot stomach any more of the bellyaching and hypocritical back stabbing.



That's basically what Juan Pablo Montoya said when he quit F-1.


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## Koop

mauichef said:


> The whole F1 thing is becoming a very sad joke. Between the clowns at Liberty and a few overly egotistical team owners and drivers, it is no longer a fun experience. I'm really enjoying IndyCar and will get my racing enjoyment there, plus F2 and SportsCars which still are about racing and not crying and moaning. After 60+ years, its going to be strange not watching a full season for the first time. Just cannot stomach any more of the bellyaching and hypocritical back stabbing.



Sad commentary. I've been following F1 since the 1960s. I won't stop now - it's still the technical pinnacle of auto racing. Bickering, cheating and such always happens in motorsport at every level. I know, I was involved both as a racer and crew chief for 30 years. I'm most interested in Moto-GP today - motorcycle racing is 80% rider, 20% bike. Formula 1 is 80% car, 20% driver.


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## Keith Sinclair

The top level moto gp bikes have gotten faster last decade hitting speeds over 200mph.


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## mauichef

I feel sad saying it. I have also been involved in racing for much of my life and agree it has always had its dark side. But the constant whining from the two top teams especially has reached a point where I just want to turn off.
So what did you race and crew chief? I spent my early years building FF cars (worked on the Merlyn 11a Emmo first drove when he came to Europe!) and wrenching on some cool machines including GT40,s, a Lola T70 and lots of Chevrons and BTCC cars. I drove FF, Autocross/rally cross, dragsters and some rallying.
I spent the past 30 years as an automotive Artist working for INDYCAR, IMSA, NASCAR and many of the top teams and drivers in those series. We owned the merchandise rights to many tracks and big races In those series too.
While I agree there has always been lots of BS it has never reached the pitch it is at in F1 right now.


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## Keith Sinclair

So the paintings of earlier F1 cars you put on first page of this thread were yours, very cool. 

You & Koop involved in racing. Also a modern Honda F1 engine guy. Interesting folks on this F1 thread. 

I could draw from small kid time never took classes but always involved in one way or another. Airbrushing designs on surfboards in 1970's. Learning to carve ice that turned into a good side business mostly hotels in Waikiki. 

Now retired trying oil painting. Was inspired by painting. The artist had passed away it was done with pallet knife. So bought a book on knife painting. Not doing it for money most my relatives and friends get my paintings. It's challenging keeps my mind going otherwise just watch TV all the time.


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## Koop

Keith Sinclair said:


> The top level moto gp bikes have gotten faster last decade hitting speeds over 200mph.



True. The Ducatis and Hondas had a massive straight line speed advantage, but skill, consistency and clever racecraft brought the championship to Fabio Quarteraro and Yamaha.


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## Koop

mauichef said:


> I feel sad saying it. I have also been involved in racing for much of my life and agree it has always had its dark side. But the constant whining from the two top teams especially has reached a point where I just want to turn off.
> So what did you race and crew chief? I spent my early years building FF cars (worked on the Merlyn 11a Emmo first drove when he came to Europe!) and wrenching on some cool machines including GT40,s, a Lola T70 and lots of Chevrons and BTCC cars. I drove FF, Autocross/rally cross, dragsters and some rallying.
> I spent the past 30 years as an automotive Artist working for INDYCAR, IMSA, NASCAR and many of the top teams and drivers in those series. We owned the merchandise rights to many tracks and big races In those series too.
> While I agree there has always been lots of BS it has never reached the pitch it is at in F1 right now.



@mauichef - you were involved at a much higher level than me. I participated in SCCA, mostly at Holtville, California and NHRA at Carlsbad, CA, Orange County, CA and Pomona,CA when I was still a teen. I got into motorcycle road racing with WMRRA, OMRRA, WERA and CCS as a rider for about 20 years. Then I was crew chief for the G2 Moto CCS/AMA Roadracing team out of Phoenix, Arizona for three years.


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## Keith Sinclair

Yamaha has rich racing history going back two stroke motors. 

Sounds like you did a lot of motorcycle racing over the years.


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## Koop

True - I started out on a Yamaha RD350 ring-a-dinger.


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## Bobby2shots

Mazepin,,,, gone. Contract terminated with "immediate effect". Contract with Russian GP promoter also terminated.


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## Corradobrit1

Bobby2shots said:


> Mazepin,,,, gone. Contract terminated with "immediate effect". Contract with Russian GP promoter also terminated.


Sponsor of Haas is a Russian chemical company whose owner is also Maze.spin's Dad. Inevitable and justified.


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## Bobby2shots

I'm wondering if Dany Kvyat will be forced out. He was with Alpine as a test driver(?) last year, and this year, I believe he's supposed to race in WEC (World Endurance Championship).


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## Bobby2shots

Looks like Otmar Szafnauer is going to Alpine. Mike Krack takes over as team principal at Aston Martin.


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## Keith Sinclair

Guess I'm hooked on another sport watched a series of episodes on Netflix about F1 seasons I think from 2016. A lot of team & driver focus, so little more knowledge of different drivers still in it & those who are not. 

Now new season here already with newly modified bodywork.


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## Keith Sinclair

Last year wondered why Mercedes had been so dominate for so many years, then Red Bull Honda gave it a run to Championship. 

Ferrari & Mclaren seemed pretty good but not at level of two top teams. 

Then just making top ten Alfa Tauri & Alpine 

Out of top ten Aston Martin. In the basement teams like Williams, Alfa Romeo, & worse Hass. After watching the Netflix series understand why some teams are out of the running. Makes you wonder how long they can compete before dropping out of F1 even for losing teams it's a lot of money & staff to keep it going. Esp. not bringing in the money like top teams.


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## Keith Sinclair

Then the engines most used by teams Mercedes, then Ferrari. Two with Honda who knows how long that will last without Hondas full commitment to continued money and research on it's F1 engine. Renault only one team. Not in the running. 

It's not new when Grand Prix had countries going against each other different engines ruled supreme. Bugatti, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes silver arrows after WW2 Mercedes again & rise of Ferrari. 60's Lotus changed the game with rear engine double wishbone light weight low to the ground IMO best looking pure racecars ever.


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## Bobby2shots

great job Valtteri,,,, Bottas starts P6 for Alfa Romeo,,,, two positions ahead of George Russel. Amazing lap.


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## Keith Sinclair

It looks like the Ferrari engine has a good showing in prelims.
1: Leclerc Ferrari 
3: Sainz Ferrari 
6: Bottas Alfa Romeo 
7: Magnussen Hass 

All Ferrari engines. 

We will see if Ferrari can make the podium Sunday.


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## Keith Sinclair

Just read that Honda will be making F1 engines in Japan for Red Bull & Alpha Tauri untill 2025 when another engine design is scheduled for F1 in 2026. 

So Honda is still making engines for F1.


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## Keith Sinclair

Well Ferrari is off to a good start First & Second on podium. Red Bull no points.


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## Keith Sinclair

Just watched movie Rush about Niki Lauda & Jim Hunt. F1 in the seventies. Good movie.


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## Corradobrit1

Didn't anyone watch the Miami race?


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## Corradobrit1

Verstappen is on fire. Leclerc is making a good fist in what is arguably an equal if not better car. Good thing the RB was fast in a straight line. Maclaren should be doing better.


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## Keith Sinclair

Yes watched Miami was amazed how they built that track tucked in between Hard Rock stadium & other venues all around. Overhead 
cable cars & freeway overpasses. 

The stands were packed to capacity. Honda last couple races seemed to have addressed 
reliability issues. Ferrari still running strong.


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## Koop

I don't think Checo very impressed with the reliability after his horsepower was de-rated. It cost him a chance at the final podium step.


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## Keith Sinclair

At first thought they would race in the rain at Monaco. I guess too dangerous. No room for error. That beautiful street circuit is narrow for modern F1. Almost impossible to pass as blocking is easier & cannot make a move. It's more about pole position & pit stops that decide the race.


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## Keith Sinclair

Max looks strong far ahead in points. This thread has died. Reason I revive it is because watching YouTube streaming on our TV. A British series about famous Brit & Scotch drivers. Graham Hill, Sterling Moss, Jim Clark. One hour specials on each driver.

All were great drivers only Sterling Moss was still alive when series made. Graham Hill won world championship in 1968 only because Jim Clark died in same Lotus with powerful cosworth Ford engine earlier that year.
All the drivers say the Clark was the best even when series made in 2,000's many still consider him best of all time. There were other greats certainly through time. He was a born gifted driver. Intuitive, hyper tuned to the race car and the track. A shy Scot who didn't like speeches or the press was at home peaceful back on the sheep farm when not racing. He was always in the front or winning outright from very beginning. He went to America for Indy 500 in a Lotus almost won but had car trouble. Came back again won buy a huge margin in 1965. He became first England driver in a English car to win the Indy 500. Later Graham Hill in 1966 became second Brit. to win at Indy. Hill said before his death that Clark was a god given talent.

Clark won two GP World Championships 1963 & 1965. At the time of his death in 1968 he was at top of his game no one could beat him. 1963 in the Lotus 25 he dominated winning 7 races in the season.
Spa Belgian 1963 in rainy foggy conditions.
Starting at 8 pole position he passed cars in front of him. With 17 laps to go in pouring rain Clark had lapped rest of field except .Maclaren who finished 5 minutes back.

It is true that Clark's tires, brakes, & transmissions would have less wear than other drivers. Sir Jackie Stewart said of Clark he was so smooth, drove with such finesse. He never bullied a racing car he caressed it. 

All this in cars that were death traps & demanding to drive.

Images Graham Hill 1968 Lotus Cosworth V8. Hill type Lotus Indy 500 winner 1966. White car. Lotus 25 car Clack dominated in 1963.


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## LostHighway

Keith Sinclair said:


> Max looks strong far ahead in points. This thread has died. Reason I revive it is because watching YouTube streaming on our TV. A British series about famous Brit & Scotch drivers. Graham Hill, Sterling Moss, Jim Clark. One hour specials on each driver.
> 
> All were great drivers only Sterling Moss was still alive when series made. Graham Hill won world championship in 1968 only because Jim Clark died in same Lotus with powerful cosworth Ford engine earlier that year.
> All the drivers say the Clark was the best even when series made in 2,000's many still consider him best of all time. There were other greats certainly through time. He was a born gifted driver. Intuitive, hyper tuned to the race car and the track. A shy Scot who didn't like speeches or the press was at home peaceful back on the sheep farm when not racing. He was always in the front or winning outright from very beginning. He went to America for Indy 500 in a Lotus almost won but had car trouble. Came back again won buy a huge margin in 1965. He became first England driver in a English car to win the Indy 500. Later Graham Hill in 1966 became second Brit. to win at Indy. Hill said before his death that Clark was a god given talent.
> 
> Clark won two GP World Championships 1963 & 1965. At the time of his death in 1968 he was at top of his game no one could beat him. 1963 in the Lotus 25 he dominated winning 7 races in the season.
> Spa Belgian 1963 in rainy foggy conditions.
> Starting at 8 pole position he passed cars in front of him. With 17 laps to go in pouring rain Clark had lapped rest of field except .Maclaren who finished 5 minutes back.
> 
> It is true that Clark's tires, brakes, & transmissions would have less wear than other drivers. Sir Jackie Stewart said of Clark he was so smooth, drove with such finesse. He never bullied a racing car he caressed it.
> 
> All this in cars that were death traps & demanding to drive.
> 
> Images Graham Hill 1968 Lotus Cosworth V8. Hill type Lotus Indy 500 winner 1966. White car. Lotus 25 car Clack dominated in 1963.View attachment 196025
> 
> View attachment 196020
> View attachment 196026


If they didn't include John Surtees I find it a bit surprising. Hawthorn and Hunt deserve mention too although both had relatively short careers.


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## Keith Sinclair

Yes Surtees good two & four wheels. Also put Honda GP race cars on the map. Honda engines are doing well in modern F-1. 

There maybe more just ones I saw on YouTube.


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## Keith Sinclair

Max Verstappen domination this year wrapped up championship before end of season. Japan & Texas exciting races. Largest crowd in Texas.

Looks like Honda's decision to stick around till 2025 payed off why quit when you are winning.


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## Jovidah

I honestly thought this season was going to be a lot more exciting than it ended up being. Was expecting an intense Max-Leclerc battle for the title, but in the end Ferrari ended up providing more of a comedic relief than an actual challenge. I really feel sorry for Leclerc and especially Sainz; they're both talented drivers but they can't seem to get a break.
Japan could have been far more exciting if they hadn't started it early. Could have been 2 hours of rainy fun but instead all we got was a wet sprintrace.


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