# 52100 vs blue and white?



## inferno (Sep 26, 2020)

i dont have any 52100 steel knives yet but i'm planning on making a few. 

those of you that have them, do you notice any difference between 52100 and blue/white?


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## M1k3 (Sep 26, 2020)

I'd liken 51200 to White steel. Very similar in use and sharpening, slightly less reactive than White steel.


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## Alder26 (Sep 26, 2020)

I have only used Tsourkan’s 52100 so I don’t know everything. That said, I would say 52100 falls somewhere between white #2 and blue #2 leaning more on the side of b#2. I tend to like blue steels better and I really like 52100 a lot. Enough to have 2 Tsourkan’s


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Sep 26, 2020)

Alder26 said:


> I have only used Tsourkan’s 52100 so I don’t know everything. That said, I would say 52100 falls somewhere between white #2 and blue #2 leaning more on the side of b#2. I tend to like blue steels better and I really like 52100 a lot. Enough to have 2 Tsourkan’s


I agree with this. It's my favorite steel.


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## inferno (Sep 26, 2020)

i really like blue 2 and super personally. so this might be good if 52100 is similar.


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## ma_sha1 (Sep 26, 2020)

Toughness! My fave Shi.han 52100 cut through fronzen  without chipping. Otherwise feels like AS.


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## Bensbites (Sep 26, 2020)

I think it has more to do with quality heat treatment.


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## Alder26 (Sep 26, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> I think it has more to do with quality heat treatment.


definitely, any steel is only as good as the smith that works it


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Sep 26, 2020)

Alder26 said:


> definitely, any steel is only as good as the smith that works it


I was just going to respond this. This is an assumption, all my 52100 are premier bladesmiths.


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## LostHighway (Sep 26, 2020)

I haven't owned a 52100 knife yet but going by Larrin's data and *assuming* all else is equal it appears that 52100 should be fairly close to the Aogami steels in edge retention and a bit tougher than either Shirogami or Aogami steels.


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## daveb (Sep 26, 2020)

At some point all these steel comparisons eventually get to "it's the maker". That's been my experience, a couple three Markos, a couple of Haburns, from 52100 are among my favorites. I had a 52100 from another maker that I didn't care for - don't remember why. When I decide on a maker I want them using the steel that they like best.

And these discussions always remind me of our friends at Bloodroot. A new knife made from a scrapped submarine door with a bolster from a John Deer tractor blade and a handle made from cat litter would have a crowd trying to win the lottery for it. And I would be in that crowd.


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## Barmoley (Sep 26, 2020)

This is the conundrum, you can't discuss differences in steels if you don't assume good heat treat for the steels you discuss. Good heat treat is not a solid definition though, so makes it even harder to compare. For example munetoshi white 2 is very hard, honyaki might be even harder. Toyama blue 2 is very hard too. Shihan 52100 is very tough, but not as hard. Tsourkan 52100 seems to be a little harder. Tansu 52100 at 64 HRC is very hard, but yet seems to still be tough and tougher than blue 2 on toyama. Kippington 52100 felt similar to me. To me 52100 is closer to blue 2, but tougher at high hardness, can support thinner edges without chipping. I think 52100 gives you more range, can be extremely tough or hard, but still tougher than blue 2. Wear resistance to me is very similar to blue 2, but because you can get thinner edges at high hardness without chipping, might give you more at extremes. Hard to say really, but definitely good steel when done right for your application.


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## Matus (Sep 26, 2020)

@Barmoley you’ve nailed. I can only add that my BloodrootBlade knife from 552100 at 64.5 hrc (the value I was told) is surprisingly resistant to chipping even though is used for fairly tough work. I would not expect white2 with similar hardness to be quite as tough (just a gut feel, not a measurement-based statement)


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## ModRQC (Sep 26, 2020)

Matus said:


> @Barmoley you’ve nailed. I can only add that my BloodrootBlade knife from 552100 at 64.5 hrc (the value I was told) is surprisingly resistant to chipping even though is used for fairly tough work. I would not expect white2 with similar hardness to be quite as tough (just a gut feel, not a measurement-based statement)



The confusing aspect about such assumptions, and I'm not saying they're wrong but probably misinformation/misinterpretation on my behalf, is that the finer grained and low alloyed a steel, the more it should resist chipping (not much carbides creating "stress points" at the edge) but tradeoff would be lesser wear resistance and edge retention. That was my understanding. And as such White #2 is among the simplest carbons out there, shouldn't it be quite resistant to chipping? I'd expect it at least to be on par with 52100, for the matter of that discussion, if pure science as I understood it applies?

Any rectifying of my own assumptions will be appreciated.


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## M1k3 (Sep 26, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> The confusing aspect about such assumptions, and I'm not saying they're wrong but probably misinformation/misinterpretation on my behalf, is that the finer grained and low alloyed a steel, the more it should resist chipping (not much carbides creating "stress points" at the edge) but tradeoff would be lesser wear resistance and edge retention. That was my understanding. And as such White #2 is among the simplest carbons out there, shouldn't it be quite resistant to chipping? I'd expect it at least to be on par with 52100, for the matter of that discussion, if pure science as I understood it applies?
> 
> Any rectifying of my own assumptions will be appreciated.











History and Properties of 52100 Steel - Knife Steel Nerds


A history of 52100, where it came from and how it has been used in knives. And all about the effect of the chromium addition on final properties.




knifesteelnerds.com


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## ModRQC (Sep 26, 2020)

Aaaaaah I see, I should have looked closely to the properties of 52100 of itself. Thanks @M1k3


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## inferno (Sep 26, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> The confusing aspect about such assumptions, and I'm not saying they're wrong but probably misinformation/misinterpretation on my behalf, is that the finer grained and low alloyed a steel, the more it should resist chipping (not much carbides creating "stress points" at the edge) but tradeoff would be lesser wear resistance and edge retention. That was my understanding. And as such White #2 is among the simplest carbons out there, shouldn't it be quite resistant to chipping? I'd expect it at least to be on par with 52100, for the matter of that discussion, if pure science as I understood it applies?
> 
> Any rectifying of my own assumptions will be appreciated.



they pretty much alloy steel to get them tougher and more wear resistant vs the old plain carbon steels. 1095 and similar steels are fairly low toughness at high hardness in general. but it could still be enough toughness for the intended use.

cr, mo, v and ni are usually used to increase toughness. in low amounts, in high amounts it can have the exact opposite effect.


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## Twigg (Sep 26, 2020)

I think what often gets overlooked is the right steel for the job. White #1 can achieve very high hardness with fine grain, thus its able to be incredibly sharp. It is a great choice to slice raw fish. White can handle a big range of uses, but if the job is loads of prep or tougher meats, blue may be the better choice for the job due to greater edge retention and less need for Supreme sharpness.. To tie in the 1095 example above, I would chose it over 52100 or any of the high alloys for bushcraft or camping in general. 1095 works great with a ferro rod, is tough with hrc in the 58 range and you can sharpen it on a rock. 

Having said that, a lot of the various steels we discuss are good for a range of uses, but we should sometime include the specific job or duty it will perform.


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## DevinT (Sep 27, 2020)

52100 has the smallest grain and the smallest carbides of any steel which allows for the keenest edge possible with very good toughness.
Hoss


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## Twigg (Sep 27, 2020)

What would you say is the right or best job for 52100 steel? I mean, what would be its ideal application in the realm of knives?


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## M1k3 (Sep 27, 2020)

Twigg said:


> What would you say is the right or best job for 52100 steel? I mean, what would be its ideal application in the realm of knives?


Cutting stuff.


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## Twigg (Sep 27, 2020)

Funny. 

I meant what application does it excel at for the desired result? Would it make a supreme sujihiki and be an arguably better choice than most other steels? Would it be ideal for a yanagiba, besting white steel for the necessary sharpness?


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## daveb (Sep 27, 2020)

The makers that use it are usually pretty good at what they do and knives made by these makers are likely good at what they do. That said, I'm not aware of any western makers that make a yanagiba that I would want - not saying they're not out there but my experience is that single bevels remain the province of Japanese makers.


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## M1k3 (Sep 27, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Funny.
> 
> I meant what application does it excel at for the desired result? Would it make a supreme sujihiki and be an arguably better choice than most other steels? Would it be ideal for a yanagiba, besting white steel for the necessary sharpness?


I'd say it make a good choice as daily driver in a pro environment. Tough enough to withstand poly boards and other hazards. Slightly less reactive than simple steels like White. Holds an edge really good considering how easy it is to sharpen.

It's not a magical steel. It's just another good one.


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## pennman (Sep 27, 2020)

Consider W2. Not white #2, but W2 steel.


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## Carterwhopkins (Sep 27, 2020)

Post removed....was flagged as promoting my services as a regular member. Sorry.


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## Twigg (Sep 27, 2020)

Thanks @daveb @M1k3 & @Carterwhopkins for the responses. My take aways are that 52100 is a highly regarded carbon steel that is used by several Western makers and liked by users. It would seem to have proven itself with gyuto and probably petty and suji, but has not been taken up by the single bevel masters yet. This is what I was looking for, the application(s) in which it really shines. Too bad we don't really know how it would work in practice with single bevel applications. Based on what I have gathered, it could possible do very well sliding betwixt white and blue. Maybe one day we will find out.


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## M1k3 (Sep 27, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Thanks @daveb @M1k3 & @Carterwhopkins for the responses. My take aways are that 52100 is a highly regarded carbon steel that is used by several Western makers and liked by users. It would seem to have proven itself with gyuto and probably petty and suji, but has not been taken up by the single bevel masters yet. This is what I was looking for, the application(s) in which it really shines. Too bad we don't really know how it would work in practice with single bevel applications. Based on what I have gathered, it could possible do very well sliding betwixt white and blue. Maybe one day we will find out.


Mainly single bevels being common in Japan while 52100 is more common in the Western world.


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## Carterwhopkins (Sep 27, 2020)

It would work well for a single bevel....main thing is grind and HT. The Hitachi steels are harder to get in the US and 52100 or W2 is fairly similar in chemical makeup to the Hitachi steels, so they are more frequently used by Western makers. I am not sure many users could tell the difference between any of these steels and pick them out in a blind cutting scenario. If you give sample blanks of any of these steels to four makers (US or Japanese) and let them grind and HT each blade, you will end up with four different feeling knives.


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## Barmoley (Sep 27, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Thanks @daveb @M1k3 & @Carterwhopkins for the responses. My take aways are that 52100 is a highly regarded carbon steel that is used by several Western makers and liked by users. It would seem to have proven itself with gyuto and probably petty and suji, but has not been taken up by the single bevel masters yet. This is what I was looking for, the application(s) in which it really shines. Too bad we don't really know how it would work in practice with single bevel applications. Based on what I have gathered, it could possible do very well sliding betwixt white and blue. Maybe one day we will find out.


It would do very well in any kitchen knife application in which a good maker that knows this steel would apply it to. It is tougher and more fine grained than any of the commonly used white or blue Hitachi steels, so it would excel in any of the applications where these steels are used.


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## Kippington (Sep 27, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> The confusing aspect about such assumptions, and I'm not saying they're wrong but probably misinformation/misinterpretation on my behalf, is that the finer grained and low alloyed a steel, the more it should resist chipping (not much carbides creating "stress points" at the edge) but tradeoff would be lesser wear resistance and edge retention. That was my understanding. And as such White #2 is among the simplest carbons out there, shouldn't it be quite resistant to chipping? I'd expect it at least to be on par with 52100, for the matter of that discussion, if pure science as I understood it applies?


In hot steel, chromium atoms are _phat and slow_ in comparison to the quick little carbon atoms which zip around and latch onto irregularities in the steel. Chromium atoms move slowly enough that they themselves can be viewed as irregularities from a carbon atom's point of view. Carbon will latch onto these irregularities to create new carbides (nucleation), which results in finer and more numerous carbides over a situation where the carbon was left to it's own devices - where it would quickly wonder further around till it found a large group to join.

Carbon moves so quickly through these low alloy steels (e.g. White#2) that they're known as fast water quenching steels. Too _slow_ a quench would allow the carbon to quickly move out of solution and find a carbide to call home before the steel cooled down enough to slow the atom down and hold it in place. That kind of required quench speed is a good indication of how quickly things are changing inside the steel, and may help in understanding why carbides can get larger in a lower alloyed steel. And of course, as you said yourself, larger carbides will lower the toughness of the overall product.


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## panda (Sep 27, 2020)

of the various 52100 ive tried, i only REALLY like shihan's version of it. it is indeed feels more a cross between white and blue steel.


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## ModRQC (Sep 28, 2020)

Kippington said:


> In hot steel, chromium atoms are _phat and slow_ in comparison to the quick little carbon atoms which zip around and latch onto irregularities in the steel. Chromium atoms move slowly enough that they themselves can be viewed as irregularities from a carbon atom's point of view. Carbon will latch onto these irregularities to create new carbides (nucleation), which results in finer and more numerous carbides over a situation where the carbon was left to it's own devices - where it would quickly wonder further around till it found a large group to join.
> 
> Carbon moves so quickly through these low alloy steels (e.g. White#2) that they're known as fast water quenching steels. Too _slow_ a quench would allow the carbon to quickly move out of solution and find a carbide to call home before the steel cooled down enough to slow the atom down and hold it in place. That kind of required quench speed is a good indication of how quickly things are changing inside the steel, and may help in understanding why carbides can get larger in a lower alloyed steel. And of course, as you said yourself, larger carbides will lower the toughness of the overall product.



Thank you for that!


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## AT5760 (Oct 7, 2021)

Bumping this one to ask about reactivity compared to blue and white steels. From what I've read here, it seems to be less reactive than those steels, but not quite in the semi-stainless category. Is that right? The only 52100 that I've tried was the Kip chevron and that one seemed less reactive than blue 2. 

Second question, is Shi Han pretty much the only maker that has 52100 knives generally available (kicking myself for missing that 180 in BST earlier this week)?


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## esoo (Oct 7, 2021)

Steelport, Marko, Markin (with the equivalent he works with). Been a while since I've seen a Devin Thomas posted in 52100


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## tcmx3 (Oct 7, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> Bumping this one to ask about reactivity compared to blue and white steels. From what I've read here, it seems to be less reactive than those steels, but not quite in the semi-stainless category. Is that right? The only 52100 that I've tried was the Kip chevron and that one seemed less reactive than blue 2.
> 
> Second question, is Shi Han pretty much the only maker that has 52100 knives generally available (kicking myself for missing that 180 in BST earlier this week)?



I dont think it's at semi-stainless level. Just not quite white level. 

There's 52100 stuff out there, just not from places Ive tried. Then there's 52100 from places I have tried but seem hard to get these days (Tsourkan, DT)


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## Matt Jacobs (Oct 7, 2021)

I have always wanted to try a good 52100 like Shihan. I have owned many white and blue steel knives and have always been very happy with them.
White sharpening very easily up to AS with great edge retention and still easy to sharpen. On the other side the worst knife I have owned was in 52100.
it took forever to get a nice edge and then seemed to lose all toothiness overnight without even cutting anything. My assumption is that the white and blue steel knives have all been from very competent Japanese makers where as the 52100 I had was from an "Instagram" knife maker who clearly had a bad heat treat.
It seems like everything keeps going back to the maker being the most important aspect of a knife.


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## parbaked (Oct 7, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> Second question, is Shi Han pretty much the only maker that has 52100 knives generally available (kicking myself for missing that 180 in BST earlier this week)?


Alex Horn works with 52100 and his books are open…


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## ModRQC (Oct 7, 2021)

It does. Shi.Han’s 52100 is fabulous. Didn’t try another one. 52100 is relatively easy to find with custom makers outside of Japan.


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## M1k3 (Oct 7, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> Bumping this one to ask about reactivity compared to blue and white steels. From what I've read here, it seems to be less reactive than those steels, but not quite in the semi-stainless category. Is that right? The only 52100 that I've tried was the Kip chevron and that one seemed less reactive than blue 2.
> 
> Second question, is Shi Han pretty much the only maker that has 52100 knives generally available (kicking myself for missing that 180 in BST earlier this week)?


Way less reactive than White, less reactive than Blue. But still reactive. It's NOT semi stainless.


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## IsoJ (Oct 7, 2021)

Agreed with @Matt Jacobs . I've tried 7-8 different makers 52100 and they all felt different to me. Difference with sharpening, edge retention and "peak" sharpeness. Only thing that was pretty close was the reactivity, all off them way less reactive than white or blue.


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## captaincaed (Oct 7, 2021)

I've had ~4 knives in 52100, and to me it feels more similar to V2 than either White or Blue. I will admit the maker effect is real. Rader's edge lasted a bit longer than Mert's, and Don's. However, they're all in the same ballpark. I think some of the talk is a distinction without a difference, or shades of the same paint color. But then again I have everything from vintage Sab to ZDP, so I tend to think in broad strokes.


Composition Comparison Graph For The Knife Steels AISI 52100, Takefu V2 Version 4.36


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## MowgFace (Oct 7, 2021)

Hmm ill have to snap some pictures when i get home. From my memory, my Gengetsu SS patinates faster and more than than my Shi.Han


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## inferno (Oct 8, 2021)

i now makle **** out of 52100 or 100c6 as we call it here. but its only for personal consumption. so far i like it. i use reclaimed roller and ball bearings. skf mostly.


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## refcast (Oct 8, 2021)

Joe Calton 52100 is available to order... Couple months to make though


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2021)

There’s like 4+ of them on BST every other day and Zwilling Kramer up to v2.0 on top of what is readily available or askable of 52100. I mean are we suddenly calling 52100 units out along with X-maker alert threads which are getting the more ridiculous as prices go up each alert? Not against any replier here; just surprised by the turn in 52100 conversation. It’s nothing rare. It’s just not out of Japan except ZKramers.


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## EricEricEric (Oct 9, 2021)

Reminds me of really high end well treated B1

He did an amazing job on this knife


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2021)

Shi.Han 52100 FTW


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## stringer (Oct 9, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Shi.Han 52100 FTW



My all-time favorite knife steel. Way tougher than my Wat blue. Still gets plenty sharp enough. Monosteel stability. Near stainless. Mine has some pretty crazy patina at this point but it has taken real work to develop it. This is my main knife in the home drawer.


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## Nemo (Oct 9, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Way less reactive than White, less reactive than Blue. But still reactive. It's NOT semi stainless.


The patina that forms on mine is a very light grey (mainly used on veggies).


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## stringer (Oct 9, 2021)

Nemo said:


> The patina that forms on mine is a very light grey (mainly used on veggies).


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2021)

stringer said:


> My all-time favorite knife steel. Way tougher than my Wat blue. Still gets plenty sharp enough. Monosteel stability. Near stainless. Mine has some pretty crazy patina at this point but it has taken real work to develop it. This is my main knife in the home drawer.




It's mine favorite steel as well. Or favorite knife, which makes it favorite steel. IDK... Shi.Han is such a genuine knife, there isn't much separating the steel experience of the whole thing to me. 

I like to think it feels dense on stones like a mother******. Don't think any other knife ever felt that way, even other blade heavy units like it. And I mean it in a good way. It feels on stones as it feels in cutting: unmovable and indestructible.

Reactivity to me is way more than A2, way less than your typical Carbon J-knife. I get nice almost uniform blues out of it with garlic and onions combined. It's somewhat slow moving there, but nothing like almost stainless. But I guess you also meant "in comparison" with typical Carbon behavior. I guess it also depends of level of polish on the edge and bevels.

I mean, I made a lot of good comments about Shi.Han in the almost full year it's been with me so far (which by far outstrips my time with any other knife but a few Victos) and really one shouldn't give me pretext to talk about it.

Suffice it to say it's the only knife that I ever rehandled for better balance which was the only off point it ever had (Old stock - Ho handle) instead of sending it to BST which to me is a better investment than rehandling, and that I queried Sheehan directly so that he could make me one of HIS handles, keeping it 100% genuine.

Suffice it to say it's the only knife I ever gave like a 12-15 _inclusive_ edge with confidence, and after a lot of beating it, all I could say is it was not a good range for having it shine with retention - but impressive still. Only time in my life I actually got worried about damage the knife could impart to my boards... not the other way around.

Suffice it to say... oh God... there I go again.


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## ModRQC (Oct 9, 2021)

Sorry but I thinned it incrementally too often to ever get much more than that formed.


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## rogue108 (Oct 9, 2021)

I was told the small amount of Chromium in 52100 (higher than Blue steels) slows the overall reactivity but it's not even close the percentages that would qualify it for a semi-stainless. Again this is what I was told...


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## M1k3 (Oct 10, 2021)

rogue108 said:


> I was told the small amount of Chromium in 52100 (higher than Blue steels) slows the overall reactivity but it's not even close the percentages that would qualify it for a semi-stainless. Again this is what I was told...


And is true.


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## Sdo (Oct 10, 2021)

I have a Kippington in 52100 and it is amazing. Crazy sharp and excellent edge retention. It is quite reactive. Not semi-stainless at all. Don't think I will ever let it go.


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## ModRQC (Oct 10, 2021)

Don't know that it would show all that much on the kitchen knife end user side though? 

Rating for corrosion resistance tested by Larrin as appropriated to typical kitchen knife (with coarser stock finish) for 52100 is still quite low. Quite better than Carbon steels without Cr addition, but much lower than A2 or D2. Comparable to 5160 which has little more than half the Cr content. 

Cr addition in 52100 is towards slower quenching/ease of forging and HT, and better carbide refinement for higher volume improving toughness and wear resistance.

If your going to cut real acidic foods, 52100 won't fare any much better than Aogami Super IME. We're nowhere near A2 resistance there. Both however will fare much better than Shirogami. 

In general food cutting, 52100 is still the easiest Carbon I've worked with so far. As a mono it competes easily with AS in its typical SS cladding, both with direct reactivity/discoloration and general maintenance. Which I guess is saying something after all. But when I hit onions or tomatoes, 52100 resembles more and more a typical carbon steel. 

I would like to think AS retains an edge as well as 52100: slightly worse corrosion resistance but higher wear resistance seem to almost be equivalent in my use.


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 15, 2021)

Three days worth of patina on my new Markin in ШХ15 [SHKH15] (52100)

Based on previous comments about muted gray patina, I'm a little surprised at the blues that are appearing - this is from cutting potatoes, green peppers, kale, garlic, and lemon. I would say it patinas most similarly to my blue 2 Watoyama, but more slowly. Definitely not semi-stainless but noticeably less reactive, by maybe less than half? Like roughly 40% slower, but that's a completely unscientific feeling and also just a first impression.

Am I crazy for thinking this steel has a subtly more 'industrial' smell? While the odor is lower overall (proportional to its slower patination), I'm picking up tangy under-notes that seem 'chemically' in an undefinable way.


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## ModRQC (Oct 15, 2021)

Not surprised at all, slower blue #2 is how I described it myself and you have my pic a few posts above… it cannot get more blue than that.


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 15, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Not surprised at all, slower blue #2 is how I described it myself and you have my pic a few posts above… it cannot get more blue than that.


I was assuming you must have been cutting a lot of meat to get that color, considering Nemo's comment about cutting mostly veggies and Stringer's reply with the exact same knife as yours with no blue at all. So either the initial blue settles down to gray over the long term, which you don't reach because of your thinning routine, or there's some serious variation even with the same maker.


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## ModRQC (Oct 15, 2021)

As for the smell I always thought it was more definite in some way. However I never experienced mono Aogami or otherwise compared to the Shi.Han. Perhaps that's the reason in my case?

BTW that seems to be a beautiful knife. If you ever accidently let a full picture slip here, I won't be mad at you


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## ModRQC (Oct 15, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I was assuming you must have been cutting a lot of meat to get that color, considering Nemo's comment about cutting mostly veggies and Stringer's reply with the exact same knife as yours with no blue at all. So either the initial blue settles down to gray over the long term, which you don't reach because of your thinning routine, or there's some serious variation even with the same maker.



Nope. Most often none at all in fact, but if so, sporadically. Meats are usually dealt with a different set of knives than my main Gyutos, since I usually prepare them in advance. It's garlic and onions that get me there. However I can't seem to be sure but IIRC storage time helps with transforming the color pattern. The "fume" pattern color beyond the blue is more how it might start with. But I'll try to pay more attention now that it's just about fresh out of the stones again and report back.


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## stringer (Oct 15, 2021)

This little guy is also 52100 monosteel. My partner and I are hard on our knives. I've seen her make stainless clad VG-10 rust. I guess the reason I consider 52100 semi stainless is because it patinas so slowly if you stay on top of it. And if you leave it on the counter to air dry or leave pizza sauce on it for a few hours there won't be any real ill effects. If you do that several hundred times it will start to look like my Shi.han. Which is actually better behavior for me than a lot of "semi-stainless" knives I own. Some of them tend to rust like crazy if you wash them and leave them to air dry.


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## ModRQC (Oct 15, 2021)

Ah yes I entirely agree now. As I said earlier it’s by far the easiest carbon I own for that. It’s like SS clad carbon but with patina. Rust would need a tremendous deal of carelessness. Although old Shi.Han’s cork edge protector was somewhat renowned to cause rust, and had a deal on mine unit for such small pitting because of it.


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 15, 2021)

stringer said:


> This little guy is also 52100 monosteel. My partner and I are hard on our knives. I've seen her make stainless clad VG-10 rust. I guess the reason I consider 52100 semi stainless is because it patinas so slowly if you stay on top of it. And if you leave it on the counter to air dry or leave pizza sauce on it for a few hours there won't be any real ill effects. If you do that several hundred times it will start to look like my Shi.han. Which is actually better behavior for me than a lot of "semi-stainless" knives I own. Some of them tend to rust like crazy if you wash them and leave them to air dry.
> 
> View attachment 147263
> View attachment 147264


That must be the difference. My wife doesn't touch my knives because she prefers her 'less scary' Wusthofs, which is fine by me, and I tend to clean my knives constantly. Maybe we need a different category for 52100 (semi-semi-stainless? demi-carbon?) because mine still patinas much more than the only "true" semi-stainless I've tried, an old Aritsugu A petty. I don't own that more anymore so it's hard to say, but I'd put 52100 slightly closer to blue 2 than A-ko. Not sure that comparison is useful to anyone nowadays


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## LucasFur (Oct 15, 2021)

Could buy a zkramer carbon version and see for yourself.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Oct 15, 2021)

I'm just finishing up a razor in 52100. Can't wait to see how it responds to the strops.


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## MowgFace (Oct 15, 2021)

Veggies mostly, but have cut everything from raw to cooked meats, and citrus you name it.


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## MowgFace (Oct 15, 2021)

Double post.


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## Barmoley (Oct 15, 2021)

52100 is one of my favorite low alloy steels, but it is definitely not semi stainless. It patinas right away if you cut an onion or citrus or even a tomato. It is not as reactive as white class steels or iron cladding some Japanese makers use, but you can't get much more reactive than that. Z-wear is semi stainless. A2 sort of is. Gokinko in old a-type is also semi stainless since it is in cruwear class of steels. There is no definition of what semi stainless is anyway, but 52100 would not be it.


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## justaute (Oct 15, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> 52100 is one of my favorite low alloy steels, but it is definitely not semi stainless. It patinas right away if you cut an onion or citrus or even a tomato. It is not as reactive as white class steels or iron cladding some Japanese makers use, but you can't get much more reactive than that. Z-wear is semi stainless. A2 sort of is. Gokinko in old a-type is also semi stainless since it is in cruwear class of steels. There is no definition of what semi stainless is anyway, but 52100 would not be it.


How would you compare 52100 to Z-wear/A2 performance wise?


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## Barmoley (Oct 15, 2021)

justaute said:


> How would you compare 52100 to Z-wear/A2 performance wise?


Z-wear edge holding is significantly better than 52100 or a2. Z-wear is also significantly more corrosion resistant. Z-wear is harder to sharpen, but not too bad, harder though.

A2 vs 52100 is harder to compare. A2 technically holds an edge better, but by how much in real use is harder to tell. A2 is slightly harder to sharpen and is more corrosion resistant.


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## justaute (Oct 15, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Z-wear edge holding is significantly better than 52100 or a2. Z-wear is also significantly more corrosion resistant. Z-wear is harder to sharpen, but not too bad, harder though.
> 
> A2 vs 52100 is harder to compare. A2 technically holds an edge better, but by how much in real use is harder to tell. A2 is slightly harder to sharpen and is more corrosion resistant.



Thanks. Have a Shi'han A2 gyuto coming my way next month -- can't wait to try it.


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## tomsch (Oct 18, 2021)

I have been thinking about selling my Tsourkan 240mm WH in 52100 but seeing these patina pictures makes me want to put it to use to watch how it develops.


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