# Which German knives are of the highest quality?



## nugnugs (Jun 3, 2018)

Hello all,

I did extensive Google searches last night to try to find this answer, but I'd like to confirm with you guys.

A lot of folks who aren't into into knives do not know of these master blacksmiths from Japan who create Japanese knives of superior quality. Many think brands like Shun are top of the line. Before I stumbled across these forums, I was actually in that camp. Since then I feel like I've learned a lot from the countless discussions here.

However, I've found that there's very little discussion on German knives. All discussions I've found point to brands such as Wusthof, Messermeister, Henckels, etc. being the apex of quality German knives. You know, brands you can purchase in your local Williams and Sonoma. Like Shun.

I'm just wondering if there exists any analogs to the Kurosakis, Sajis, Masamotos, etc. in the German knife community that the mass public may be unaware of, that would make a Wusthof seem subpar in comparison. Because if there is, I couldn't find anything.


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## parbaked (Jun 3, 2018)

Gude and Herder still make good knives:
https://www.windmuehlenmesser.de/en/
http://www.guede-solingen.de/en/


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## daveb (Jun 3, 2018)

Of the commonly available I like the Messermeister Meridian Elite. Would rather have a good Sabatier if looking for Euro (not German) knife.

Our European members will be along shortly and probably provide you better answers. There is a "which knife" questionnaire at the top of this forum that will help them provide recommendations tailored to your requirements.


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## Benuser (Jun 3, 2018)

Herder, especially their 1922 series. Old school, Art déco, traditionally forged, with a narrow fingerguard, simple carbon steel C75W, but hardened at 60Rc. Excellent thin grinding. Their 23cm chef's and 23 slicer are amongst my favourites at home.


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## HRC_64 (Jun 3, 2018)

No, german industry has been industrialized for a long time.


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## parbaked (Jun 3, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> No, german industry has been industrialized for a long time.



You miss the point which is that in spite of industrialization, there are still a handful of German manufacturers hand making (not robots) good knives with traditional techniques. 
Two examples are Gude and Herder. Herder in fact has an apprenticeship program to try to preserve these skills.


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## StonedEdge (Jun 3, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> No, german industry has been industrialized for a long time.



must by why their cars suck so much *sarcasm


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## eaglerock (Jun 3, 2018)

Only my Razors can be German


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## nugnugs (Jun 3, 2018)

Thank you all for generating discussion, I'll fill out the questionnaire so we have more to work with.



LOCATION
What country are you in?
*USA (nyc)*


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
*Chef's knife*

Are you right or left handed?
*Right*

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
*Western only*

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
*8-10. I'm used to 8, but have a 240mm gyuto which I have gotten used to. Judging by what people say, once you get used to 10, you'll never go back to 8. So maybe longer than 8.*

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
*Highly preferable. This will be a 'beater', something that can take abuse, and something I wouldn't mind letting friends use if they want to cook in my house.
I already have a high-maintenance gyuto, and am in the market for something that is the exact opposite of high-maintenance, yet still of superb quality.*

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
*Cost is no issue, but I don't want to spend extra $$ for non-functional upgrades. ie. I would not get a Wusthof Ikon blackwood over a Wusthof Classic Ikon, since the difference is only the handle material.*


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
*Home*

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
*Ideally it should do be able to do everything short of butchering. I got a cleaver for that. Something that can handle breaking down a chicken, maybe?*

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
*Not replacing a knife, just want a new one that can take abuse. For the record I DO have a J.A. Henckels 4 star lying around somewhere.*

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
*Pinch grip*

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
*Pushcut, but I'd like something can can handle rocking and drawing.*

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
*I want something with a half-bolster, for ease of sharpening. Other than that, I don't care much for aesthetics, but better stain resistance would be nice for the lower maintenance.*

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
*I would definitely like something balanced for a pinch grip.*

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
*Less reactivity to food, smoother rock chopping*

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
*I kind of like sharpening, so I dont care. Nothing more frequent than once a week though. That's excessive.*


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
*Wood*
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
*Yes*
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
*Yes*
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
*Already have a 1000/6000 Cerax combo, with a diamond plate. Not really interested in purchasing more than that, Kind of hoping this knife wouldn't need any more special considerations*


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
*I have a chinese cleaver and a japanese gyuto. I kind of want something top of the line from Germany, to flesh out my collection of the different chef knives from across the world. I want this to be the quintessential European knife. I've been eyeing the Wusthof Classic Ikon 9 Inch, but I'd like to know if there's better out there.*


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## daveb (Jun 3, 2018)

The 4 Star was the last good knife line Henckels produced. Still have an 8 and 10 inch around somewhere. 

I've worked with newer Henks and Wusties Classic and Ikon, and there's not a lot of difference - all very average knives. Both brands are evenly balanced to appeal to housewives. The Messermeister suggested above is a little blade heavy which makes working with it (seem?) easier. And you don't have to pay the premium to not have a bolster.


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## nugnugs (Jun 3, 2018)

Meridian Elite looks good actually.

Is there a difference between the Meridian Elite and the Olive Elite, besides the handle?


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## Grunt173 (Jun 3, 2018)

I have one 4 star Henckels 8 inch and one Wussie Classic 8 inch and I like them both,yes,even with the bolster but it sounds like I am the only one on the planet who does.Hey,I think that makes me special.:biggrin:


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## daveb (Jun 3, 2018)

nugnugs said:


> Meridian Elite looks good actually.
> 
> Is there a difference between the Meridian Elite and the Olive Elite, besides the handle?



Not to my knowledge.


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## HRC_64 (Jun 3, 2018)

Just get a wustoff and pair it with a j-knife and you're fine.


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## Benuser (Jun 3, 2018)

If you insist on getting a German knife: some models of the former Wüsthof Cordon Bleu series have now migrated to the Classics:
https://www.wuesthof.com/internation...-knife-4581-23
Lighter, balance point at the bolster, no fingerguard.
Out of the box, the will need a bit of work: working away the shoulders, convexing the bevels, putting a realistic edge on it. I use a Chosera 400 for that purpose. Be aware that soft stainless is very abrasion resistant and doesn't hold highly polished edges. So you need a medium coarse stone and may strop and deburr with your 1k.
The factory edge is thinner than the steel can hold or even take: have seen a few that weren't deburred. Behind the edge they are as all stainless Germans twice as fat as desirable. 
No big deal, but it needs some light work before the first use.


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## nugnugs (Jun 3, 2018)

Thank you all.

I managed to find a Wusthof half bolster LCB 9 inch for $100. It is to my understanding that the Meridian Elite and the Classic Ikon are very similar, and seeing as how they are respectively $150 and $200, I've elected to purchase the Le Cordon Bleu verson.


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## daveb (Jun 3, 2018)

103 for the Meridian Elite. Better knife. Just sayin.

http://www.cutleryandmore.com/messe...lkW22DGHTpfIt0M2FVDe0rOAeEJrFzghoC-NMQAvD_BwE


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## chinacats (Jun 3, 2018)

What's your current knife and why do you call it high maintenance?

Forthe record, most Euro stainless kind of sucks.


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## nugnugs (Jun 3, 2018)

Oh I messed up...

That price is for the stealth though, is the stealth better than the non-stealth version? I figured a bulkier blade = more durable and able to take more abuse, so for my purposes i don't want stealth.


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## nugnugs (Jun 3, 2018)

chinacats said:


> What's your current knife and why do you call it high maintenance?
> 
> Forthe record, most Euro stainless kind of sucks.



I currently have a Kurosaki Syousin Migaki AS. I suppose it's not so high of a maintenance, but I'm still looking for something that can be neglected.


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## Benuser (Jun 4, 2018)

nugnugs said:


> Thank you all.
> 
> I managed to find a Wusthof half bolster LCB 9 inch for $100. It is to my understanding that the Meridian Elite and the Classic Ikon are very similar, and seeing as how they are respectively $150 and $200, I've elected to purchase the Le Cordon Bleu verson.



I have the same, my last stainless chef's. Wüsthof had to abandon the name of this series since Le Cordon Bleu went into business with Zwilling / Henckels. That's why they integrated them in their Classics, and you may get some old stock much cheaper. 
The best Wüsthof you can get IMHO. The work to be done I've described is the same with all German stainless, I'm afraid. This one is a bit lighter and thinner, though.

Can't tell anything about the Meridian. Is made by Burgvogel, Solingen, who is slightly differently positioned abroad than in the European market. With us it's a reliable, cheaper and slightly softer alternative to Wüsthof and Zwilling / Henckels.


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## HRC_64 (Jun 4, 2018)

Benuser said:


> With us it's a reliable, cheaper and slightly softer alternative to Wüsthof and Zwilling / Henckels.



+1


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## mhpr262 (Jun 5, 2018)

If you want something extraordinary you could get a handmade knife from Jürgen Schanz. He is one of the best custom knife makers in Germany and worldwide (among other things he was the youngest person to ever earn an official certified German "Meister" status in his line of work. He is also the official purveyor of all edgy shharp things to the Royal Family of Qatar who like to give away his knives as presents of state). The prices are pretty reasonable because the knives are relatively simply made and he doesnt use exotic supersteels but they all perform extremely well:

https://www.schanz-shop.de/de/handgefertigte-messer/kochmesser/


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## zoze (Jun 5, 2018)

You may also want to consider Tilman and Xerxes.


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## banjo1071 (Jun 5, 2018)

double post


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## banjo1071 (Jun 5, 2018)

mhpr262 said:


> If you want something extraordinary you could get a handmade knife from Jürgen Schanz. He is one of the best custom knife makers in Germany and worldwide (among other things he was the youngest person to ever earn an official certified German "Meister" status in his line of work. He is also the official purveyor of all edgy shharp things to the Royal Family of Qatar who like to give away his knives as presents of state). The prices are pretty reasonable because the knives are relatively simply made and he doesnt use exotic supersteels but they all perform extremely well:
> 
> https://www.schanz-shop.de/de/handgefertigte-messer/kochmesser/



He uses mainly Niolox...


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## mhpr262 (Jun 5, 2018)

banjo1071 said:


> He uses mainly Niolox...


Yes, there is a whole page on his website where he describes the steel:
https://www.schanz-shop.de/de/messermacherbedarf/stahl/sb1-niolox/

If he likes the steel I am sure it is just fine. Not sure what you are hinting at otherwise


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## banjo1071 (Jun 5, 2018)

mhpr262 said:


> Yes, there is a whole page on his website where he describes the steel:
> https://www.schanz-shop.de/de/messermacherbedarf/stahl/sb1-niolox/
> 
> If he likes the steel I am sure it is just fine. Not sure what you are hinting at otherwise



I would rate Niolox (aka SB1) as an exotic steel, though....


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## Benuser (Jun 5, 2018)

mhpr262 said:


> The prices are pretty reasonable because the knives are relatively simply made and he doesnt use exotic supersteels but they all perform extremely well


I either wouldn't call Niolox a very simple steel that explains Schanz' moderate prices.


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## Nomsdotcom (Jun 5, 2018)

Xerxes, one of the few non-Japanese makers I want to try


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## merlijny2k (Jun 9, 2018)

K-sab 200 with the G10 handles. Neglectible, better steel, forward balance, no nonsense. Not from Germany though. 

I had a Wusthoff Cordon Bleu for a while. Still quite heavy. If only they would make the Grand Prix with half crop and a reasonable price...


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## HRC_64 (Jun 9, 2018)

merlijny2k said:


> If only they would make the Grand Prix with half crop and a reasonable price...



Its easily done with a $6 file


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## Benuser (Jun 9, 2018)

A few figures regarding Wüsthof 20cm chef's. 
Former LCB, now Classic 4581, half crop, 212g
Classic 4582, full crop, 263g
Grand Prix II 4585, FULL crop, 260g
Ikon Classic 4596, half crop, 270g
Ikon 4996, half crop, 250g

The GPII chef's has a full fingerguard. And the Ikon Classic , without one, still is the heaviest. Strange you've found the LCB that heavy.


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## panda (Jun 9, 2018)

the hell with german get this instead
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...nal-high-end-knives-gyuto?variant=29464980227
it is tough as hell and those dimples actually work

if you HAVE to go german meridian elite is way to go as they are the least porky and dont have stupid finger guards


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## dafox (Jun 9, 2018)

Benuser said:


> A few figures regarding Wüsthof 20cm chef's.
> Former LCB, now Classic 4581, half crop, 212g
> Classic 4582, full crop, 263g
> Grand Prix II 4585, FULL crop, 260g
> ...



Regarding the Former LCB, now Classic 4581, half crop, I had one but didn't keep it because of the profile and handle combination. The heel had an abrupt stop when you rocked it, needed a touch of back belly, and the handle comes straight off of the knife, when you rock the knife the end of the handle comes too close to the board, feels like it's tipped too much towards the handle. When you look at the knife sideways at the end of a rock the spine is parallel to the board but it doesn't feel that way. It also had down right sharp edges on the spine and half bolster, very uncomfortable. 
Also, got to handle a Messermeister meridian elite10 inch chef, liked the stealth best, the regular one is a beast. Had a surprisingly normal to smaller diameter handle that I like. Would like to check out the 9 inch version. 
Also checked out the Wustof Ikon and classic, and the Henckles 4star and pro. So, so far my favorite German knife is the Messermeister. 
Wonder which Japanese knife would be the most similar to it???


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## HRC_64 (Jun 9, 2018)

If you cannot round the (square) spine or choil german knife, especially one at 54-56hrc,
you should not even be allowed within a 10 block radius of a japanese knife.

:lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## merlijny2k (Jun 9, 2018)

Benuser said:


> A few figures regarding Wüsthof 20cm chef's.
> Former LCB, now Classic 4581, half crop, 212g
> Classic 4582, full crop, 263g
> Grand Prix II 4585, FULL crop, 260g
> ...



I didnt't own the GP. In the shop where I held it, it seemed pretty OK. Probably the difference in time handling it skewed my perception. Thanks for the info and interest though.


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## merlijny2k (Jun 9, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> Its easily done with a $6 file



I actually have removed a bolster twice. Not all bolters can be filed with a regular file though and i think it wouldn't work on the wusthof. Haven't actually tried it on that knife though. So far the score is: 2Lion Sabatier Itl: hardened, shortened it with course stone. Lot of work. Carl Schmidt Santoku: softsteel, IKEA, hardened. Removed with belt grinder.


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## HRC_64 (Jun 9, 2018)

If a german knife is hard enough to not use a file
it's hard enough no to ***** about.


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## Benuser (Jun 9, 2018)

Soft stainless can be very abrasion resistant. Removing a fat Wüsthof fingerguard is no fun.


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## rick alen (Jun 9, 2018)

Files are hardened to 70rc, German stainless should be no match.


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## merlijny2k (Jun 10, 2018)

Yes, there are 70HRC files, no, they do not sell for 6$. Give it a try with any file under $25 and we'll talk again. Even with an expensive file chances are it will take a long time. Even if the file is harder than the knife it will just slip on the metal.


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## HRC_64 (Jun 10, 2018)

merlijny2k said:


> Yes, there are 70HRC files, no, they do not sell for 6$. Give it a try with any file under $25 and we'll talk again. Even with an expensive file chances are it will take a long time. Even if the file is harder than the knife it will just slip on the metal.



Common files are approx hrc 60, and yes they cut steel in a messermeister ...no problem.
But I think we are gettting away from ourselves here.

My earlier comment was simply made to be humble - you don't need a fancy this or that when common tools can save you a headache.
If you think the bolster is worth modifying to make sharpeneing easier, just modify it.

Don't need to buy a new knife or pick a knife with other flaws, like a worse profile or a softer (?) steel, etc
Of course some people may not see these things as flaws either...thats why many different brands and profiles exist.

Sometimes the glass is half full....
if you don't mind some elbow grease.


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## merlijny2k (Jun 10, 2018)

We need a pre agreed knife, file, camera and timer to settle this


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## coxhaus (Dec 17, 2020)

Removing the bolster is not hard but I don't know about a file. I used a Norton stone and a Work Sharp. Here is my 30 year Henckels 4-star.

I like a bolster as that is mainly what I have used all my life. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. It's because my finger is against the bolster when I hold the knife.


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## daveb (Dec 17, 2020)

Easy button is to buy Messermeister Meridian. Semi bolster for about 20 years.


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## Benuser (Dec 17, 2020)

daveb said:


> Easy button is to buy Messermeister Meridian. Semi bolster for about 20 years.


Messermeister is known in Europe as Burgvogel.


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## Campbell (Dec 17, 2020)

Wusthof had a 200th anniversary limited edition 9" chef a few years ago. Just search for "Wusthof limited edition" on ebay and you'll see a few options. One of my family members has had one for a couple years and it's held up nicely to regular family use and abuse. It's not stainless, but it hasn't been a problem as the steel is not that reactive and it developed a nice stable patina.

Here are a few pics I pulled off google to give you an idea.


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## Campbell (Dec 17, 2020)

*actually looks like there is just one option on eBay at the moment but looks like Amazon has five in stock.


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## coxhaus (Dec 17, 2020)

It has the wrong color knife handle for me but looks like a nice knife. I think Williams Sonoma has the best deal.

Wüsthof Crafter 8" Chef's Knife | Williams Sonoma (williams-sonoma.com)


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## Jovidah (Dec 17, 2020)

Best German knives that can actually cut? Robert Herder... by far. The handles are simple at best... and they're not necessarily the most comfy knives to hold (no rounded spine or choils). But they're the only larger-scale produced knives that I've ever seen that are actually proper thin behind the edge.
Stuff like Wüsthofs serves its purpose... its nice to have at least something in your kitchen that can serve as an axe to go ham on stuff like chocolate, nuts, the occasional bone, parmiggiano cheese, or just to rockchop a pile of something and not give a damn.

There's a few custom guys and small operations that also produce high quality stuff; Schanz was mentioned and I've only read positive things about him on the German forums (from knife snobs). Who knows, I've never seen anything from Güde or Messermeister up close, so I'm willing to be surprised, but nothing I've seen of them so far looked like it was anywhere near as thin as the Herders.

Agree with what Benuser said about soft stainless not necessarily being trivial to thin or file. Soft stainless = tough stainless.


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## M1k3 (Dec 17, 2020)

Zwilling Pro is pretty nice also. ZWILLING Pro 8-inch, Chef's knife | Official ZWILLING Shop


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## Ericfg (Dec 17, 2020)

I'm very happy to see informed talk about German steel here.


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## Ericfg (Dec 17, 2020)

edit: double post.


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## ragz (Dec 17, 2020)

Xerxes is the peak german knife of highest quality


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## daveb (Dec 17, 2020)

ragz said:


> Tillman is the peak German knife of highest quality



FTFY

But I think thread was more about the household knives.


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## KenHash (Dec 17, 2020)

Both Zwilling/Henckels and Wustoffs are very popular in Japan. Fujitora (Tojiro) used to be the Japan distributor for F.Dick.


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## ecchef (Dec 20, 2020)

Back in the pre-gyuto era, I came across Eberhard Schaaf Goldhamster knives. Double bolstered and heavy as a Cadillac, but were considered to be a step up from the usual suspects. Not sure about the steel, but they did seem to take and hold a somewhat better edge. I believe they are still in production and with a half bolster line now. 
I always liked the look of the F Dick 1905 line as well.


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## inferno (Dec 20, 2020)

what about these? mac, cryoed steel, beefy, german style, japanese made.
60-ish hrc instead of 55.. anyone tried these?








Ultimate Series


The Ultimate Series uses 2.5-3.0mm blades and larger bolsters than our Professional Series to mimic the weight and heft of a traditional European, forged knife while maintaining a thin, Japanese-style stamped blade. These blades are made with our sub-zero tempered Superior steel for better edge...



www.macknife.com


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