# Anyone else moving toward All American Makers?



## 29palms (Sep 6, 2014)

I dunno - have a lot of J-knives, but am enjoying the American makers take on them and other classic shapes. While my J-knives are resting my rotation is: HHH, Ealy, Carter, Carter, Marko, Devin, Rader, and a rehandled Japanese bread knife. Two actually one went to a charity auction where it fetched it's cost less all the work I did to it. Gotta be careful with those if you are looking for value.


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## CutFingers (Sep 6, 2014)

I would like to try one when I get the money. I think the forged knives are fun to tinker with, the imperfection in forging,grinds etc...

The American knives I think are amazing in precision. When I am ready to stop tinkering I'll settle on something like a Marko...I think he's got the most interesting grinds and stunning handles.


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## Lefty (Sep 6, 2014)

I have noticed a similar trend in my personal collection, or rather what I actually use from what I own. My only real exception is Will Catcheside, it seems. My knives that I still pull out are: Rader, Harner, Harner, Carter, Rodrigue, Catcheside, in no particular order. Come to think of it, my next purchases/dream purchases will/would be another Rader, Wilburn, DT, Kramer, Burke, Bloodroot Blades (Snyder and Van Wyk) and Maumasi.


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## Mrmnms (Sep 6, 2014)

I like your list Lefty. I wish I had a little more time to use them all.


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## panda (Sep 7, 2014)

i have zero interest in ANY of the american knives.


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## citizenY (Sep 7, 2014)

why would the origin of the knife carry more weight than all of the other (more practical) variables?

like who is the maker (experience), what steel, profile,


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## marc4pt0 (Sep 7, 2014)

Huh?


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 7, 2014)

I think once you go north of $500 (for e.g. a 240 gyuto) you have some serious (Japanese) benchmarks to compare to - Shigefusa, Heiji, Yoshikane, Kato, Mizuno, Hide, Ino etc. If fancy handles/materials aren't your thing, I don't really see any reason to get a custom. 

I understand the attraction of purchasing a local product, but tend to treat claims of marked superiority as bluster.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Sep 7, 2014)

Lefty said:


> My knives that I still pull out are: Rader, Harner, Harner, Carter, Rodrigue, Catcheside, in no particular order.


How come you haven't mentioned Billipp here?


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## mistascoopa (Sep 7, 2014)

I've only had limited experience with customs, their F&F and aesthetics are real nice. Can't argue with that. It's always nice to own something exclusive as well.

As for real world performance, they fell short. Disappointingly and laughably short. Hopefully, others can change my mind in the future.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 7, 2014)

mistascoopa said:


> As for real world performance, they fell short. Disappointingly and laughably short. Hopefully, others can change my mind in the future.



Mistascoopa that's a pretty bold broad statement given your admitted limited experience with full custom knives. Curious what customs you've handled and what specifically what is it about American Knife makers that don't meet your standards?


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## cheflarge (Sep 7, 2014)

It's kind of a salt of the earth, grass roots thing for me..... Most of the custom guy's I support, I have been fortunate enough to meet and watch work/work with. That being said I have a wide variety in the work rotation: Suissin, Miyabi custom, Tojiro, Kramer by Shun, Sakai Yasuki, HHH, Lauderjung custom, Itonomin, Gesshin Ginga.

Additionally, I have been fortunate enough to demo several customs, over the last couple of years, and the real world performance has been nothing short of stellar! IMHO

I can see owning: HHH, Ealy, Davis, Ingoglia, Scorpion Forge, Dabney, Chefcomesback, Haburn...... I'm sure I missed someone.

I would have to say I would much rather support our local knife makers!


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## marc4pt0 (Sep 7, 2014)

My "huh" was in response to this:



panda said:


> i have zero interest in ANY of the american knives.



Not this, just to be clear:



citizenY said:


> why would the origin of the knife carry more weight than all of the other (more practical) variables?
> 
> like who is the maker (experience), what steel, profile,



I'll admit that my experience is somewhat limited when it comes to high-end Japanese knives, but what I have handed I thought to be quite impressive. For me it's also about the comfort/feel of a knife. Not just in hand but also in performance as well. I'm also pretty keen on the grass roots of good Ol'American made beauties. It's no secret that I'm a big fan of the American custom. I'm a huge fan boy of Delbert Ealy, as well as Andy Billipp. Makers like Devin Thomas, Joel, Ian (which I'm waiting to finally try out), Randy from HHH, Cris Anderson (also still waiting to try), Marko Tsourkan, Mario, and of course Kramer, are all producing world class works that just speak to me. I'm sure I'm forgetting others here, but man, to just say Zero interest any Any American makers it's just odd to me. Sure,I believe in traditionalism, and personal preference, but I would never just disregard talent and craft so blatantly flat out. Ew.

Yet each to their own, and I'm always pleased to see others express this openly on the forum.


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## toddnmd (Sep 7, 2014)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Mistascoopa that's a pretty bold broad statement given your admitted limited experience with full custom knives. Curious what customs you've handled and what specifically what is it about American Knife makers that don't meet your standards?



I read the original comment as acknowledging its own limitations--only based on a few examples, not a wholesale indictment of customs.

I have yet to get a custom, or even handle one, but I found the info helpful. As my concept for what is "reasonable" or "justifiable" to pay for a knife has grown (quite significantly), I'm approaching the realm of customs, and I do truly wonder if I would find the performance worth the money.

I'm curious to hear more ideas in this thread. It also seems like the way many Japanese knives is made is quite a different process from what these small independent makers are doing.


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## Ruso (Sep 7, 2014)

Not being American, helps me to not have that patriotic feeling towards the US made goods. Said that, I do not have any preference in terms of where the blade is made.
Most of the American blades I am interested in are quite up high in the price and could have quite a long wait time. As somebody mentioned earlier there are some well renown Japanese made blade at this price or even slightly cheaper. 
So it becomes a tough decision...


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## Lefty (Sep 7, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> How come you haven't mentioned Billipp here?



I knew I was forgetting someone! Haha. Because I was sneaking in a peek at the forums, and I forgot. I still love my Billipp. You want flat out cutting fun? Call Andy, and he'll hook you up!


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## LKH9 (Sep 7, 2014)

panda said:


> i have zero interest in ANY of the american knives.



If it's hunting knife, folding knife, combat knife/ western-style kitchen knives, then it's good to be American-made. Traditional Japanese style knives? NO. I prefer them to be made by some traditional Japanese artisans, each knife they make has a character.:no: I'm more proud of Japanese products.


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## chefcomesback (Sep 7, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> If it's hunting knife, folding knife, combat knife/ western-style kitchen knives, then it's good to be American-made. Traditional Japanese style knives? NO. I prefer them to be made by some traditional Japanese artisans, each knife they make has a character.:no: I'm more proud of Japanese products.



Can you tell me if you have used any of the custom makers? If so which maker? 


Sent from my iPhone using Kitchen Knife Forum


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## XooMG (Sep 7, 2014)

I don't really care unless the maker does something that I like. I've picked up some Carters though I'd been reluctant for a while, and am taking a few risks on Butch Harner and Cris Anderson, looking for something a little different in which I can participate actively without cramping up the maker's style too much.


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## mistascoopa (Sep 7, 2014)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Mistascoopa that's a pretty bold broad statement given your admitted limited experience with full custom knives. Curious what customs you've handled and what specifically what is it about American Knife makers that don't meet your standards?



As I stated, I was speaking only in my own limited experience with customs, not custom makers as a whole. Believe me, I was not trying to be bold. If I was, I would have blasted some makers, which would have been foolish of me with my limited experience with their knives. I also stated that I am hopeful to run into some great ones in the future.

It is not so much that they didnt meet my standard, but the Japanese standard that I am readily familiar with. Its one thing for you to test cut a few ingredients in your home kitchen, its another thing for me to ask a knife to perform in the maw of pro use, day in and day out, where shortcomings and flaws are more readily identifiable. 

Also, as with all things knife related, personal taste is taken into account as well. 

I dig the grass roots view on this subject, which is why my interest will always be there.


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## Burl Source (Sep 7, 2014)

My kitchen knives are all American made but that is not intentional or I should say not the primary motive for getting them.
My thoughts are that mass produced knives will not have the refinements or fit and finish you get with a custom knife made by one person.
I know that is kind of a broad statement and can be incorrect in some situations.
I currently own knives by Butch Harner, Delbert Ealy and Mike Davis.
Each of these were made with the focus being to make them just right instead of good enough like you see with mass produced knives.


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## cheflarge (Sep 7, 2014)

Three killer makers, Mark, that, frankly I would put up against any knife maker in the world! JUST SAYIN!!!


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## Sabaki (Sep 7, 2014)

I would pick American made any day of the week if i only could afford it

These American makers many of them already mentioned make the most amazing "true" damascus steel in a super high grade, they also understand and take the time to properly heat-treat their steel pre and after hardening in a controlled way to make the best of the steel.

I cant say the same about many of the Japanese makers... microshipping and shipping of the blade seems common and acceptable among these?
How many of the japanese artisan make "true" damascus anymore" as far i understand most of them buy factory readymade cheap damascus bars and forge this and call it handmade?

Read an article about a swedish businessman selling japanese knives that where so extraordinary... but one should always have an extra set of cheap knives every time you cut something hard?

Laminated blades i dont get
why would i use a knife in the kitchen that can not withstand bending? 
the only benefit is when it needs thinning? how often is that? once a year, every 5 year?

maybe a bit harsh but it´s how i feel:angel2:


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 7, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> I would pick American made any day of the week if i only could afford it
> 
> These American makers many of them already mentioned make the most amazing "true" damascus steel in a super high grade, they also understand and take the time to properly heat-treat their steel pre and after hardening in a controlled way to make the best of the steel.
> 
> ...



I started writing a reply but there is so much nonsense in this post I gave up.


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## MAS4T0 (Sep 7, 2014)

I don't have the experience necessary with American made knives to really comment. I've had knives from 2 of the makers on this forum and they have really impressed me.

Some of the comments do make me wonder though if people are making fair comparisons. The price of a piece reflects the standing of the maker and the time that has gone into the knife.

It's hardly fair to be comparing knives of vastly differing price ranges. $2k+ US made custom should not be directly compared to a $600 J-knife; comparisons between Japanese made knives and US made knives are only really valid within the same price range.

Both of the U.S. knifes I've owned had noticeable shortcomings when compared to J-knives which were significantly more expensive, but compared favourably to ones in the same price range.

My take is that Japanese makers are more efficient and can offer a competitive product more cheaply. With the exception of makers like Marko who are underselling their work, you generally get more for your money with a Japanese knife.

I'd really appreciate it if anyone who's transitioned from J-knives to almost entirely US made knives would state which J-knives they've owned/ used in the past, how they compared and the relative prices. 

I see the appeal of selecting the profile, dimensions, steel, Damascus pattern, handle material and the improved F+F, but I'm having difficulty imagining a blade which is functionally superior to a high end J-knife.


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 7, 2014)

^ This guy gets it.


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## erickso1 (Sep 7, 2014)

I'm not transitioning to American, I just happen to be starting there.


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## MAS4T0 (Sep 7, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> These American makers many of them already mentioned make the most amazing "true" damascus steel in a super high grade



If that's the case I'd appreciate details, I've always been curious to try real authentic Damascus steel; I was under the impression that it was a lost art.

I didn't know any of the makers here made "true" Damascus steel. I was under the impression that everyone was using pattern welding to create the Damascus effect.


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## Sabaki (Sep 7, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> ^ This guy gets it.



Well... 2k Devin or 2k high end J-knife... i would easy pick Devin because i now i have a durable knife i would dare to use
same goes for 5-600$ range seven days a week

I´ll give J-knifes cred for their edgegeometry but their set to go by quantity instead of quality really gets to me


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## WillC (Sep 7, 2014)

Original Damask, was a crucible steel, something like what has been more modernly recreated by the name of wootz. Best name ever. Wooootz.


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## Sabaki (Sep 7, 2014)

MAS4T0 said:


> If that's the case I'd appreciate details, I've always been curious to try real authentic Damascus steel; I was under the impression that it was a lost art.
> 
> I didn't know any of the makers here made "true" Damascus steel. I was under the impression that everyone was using pattern welding to create the Damascus effect.





"True" cause the maker himself does his own pattern welding not someone elses


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## MAS4T0 (Sep 7, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> du har sågspån i ditt huvud:doublethumbsup:
> 
> "True" cause the maker himself does his own pattern welding not someone elses



I have sawdust in my head?

If that's an insult, it seems quite low to write it in a foreign language. Hint: If you want to insult someone, it helps if they can understand what you're saying.

So a knife made by Marko using a billet forged by Devin is not true Damascus in your mind?


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## Sabaki (Sep 7, 2014)

MAS4T0 said:


> I have sawdust in my head?
> 
> If that's an insult, it seems quite low to write it in a foreign language. Hint: If you want to insult someone, it helps if they can understand what you're saying.
> 
> So a knife made by Marko using a billet forged by Devin is not true Damascus in your mind?



sorry for my bad English, i couldn´t help myself

yes of course it is true, Devin makes his own by hand so therefor it is true!

you do know that most japanese knifemakers buy factorymade damascusbillets right?

if i had said "original" damascus, i too would be very impressed


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## MAS4T0 (Sep 7, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> sorry for my bad English, i couldn´t help myself
> 
> yes of course it is true, Devin makes his own by hand so therefor it is true!
> 
> you do know that most japanese knifemakers buy factorymade damascusbillets right?



Yes, I am well aware of that; it's cost prohibitive to pattern weld individual billets by hand for low end knives. This approach is not universal and is not generally used on high-end knives which are anywhere near approaching the price of an American Damascus blade. Do you really think that Hattori KD, Shigefusa Kitajei or Mizuno Suminigashi are made like that, and if they are does it make any difference?

In any case, the pattern welding is just as real. The pattern was created by the same process (forge welding). It's only through powder metallurgy that they could possibly fake the forge welding (by sintering layers of different steels together) and even then it makes no difference. It's not as though they've drawing the pattern on with a sharpie and then etching the blade to etch a fake pattern.

Ah, but in the scenario outlined before, the knife maker didn't make the billet himself.


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## MAS4T0 (Sep 7, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> if i had said "original" damascus, i too would be very impressed



True: accurate or exact.

True Damascus comes from Damascus or is at least created using the techniques developed there. Pattern welded steel which is made in house is no more "true" Damascus than that which is bought in.

True Damascus is original Damascus...

My apologies everyone for derailing the thread.


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## Sabaki (Sep 7, 2014)

MAS4T0 said:


> Yes, I am well aware of that; it's cost prohibitive to pattern weld individual billets for low end knives. This approach is not universal and is not used on high-end knives which are anywhere near approaching the price of an American Damascus blade. Do you really think that Hattori KD, Shigefusa Kitajei or Mizuno Suminigashi are made like that, and if they are sites it make any difference?
> 
> In any case, the pattern welding is just as real. It was created by the same process. It's only through powder metallurgy that they could possibly fake the forge welding by sintering layers of different steels together.
> 
> Ah, but in the scenario outlined before, the knife maker didn't make the billet himself.




I cant answer for these Japanese makers you mention if they make true or not

There is many Japanese makers that produce amazing knives but it feels like a lottery and i´m done gambling


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## Sabaki (Sep 7, 2014)

MAS4T0 said:


> True: accurate or exact.
> 
> True Damascus comes from Damascus or is at least created using the techniques developed there. Pattern welded steel which is made in house is no more "true" Damascus than that which is bought in.
> 
> ...



you are about to bring out my swedish words again:biggrin::biggrin:

so you think forge welding is all the same no matter how or by who it is prodused?

Handmade forge welded damascus by a skilled craftsman has a much higher value and is more beatiful sharper than a machine spitting out 300yards an hour if you ask me

i rest my case


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## knyfeknerd (Sep 7, 2014)

I'm about to go to 100% Richmond knives made by Lamson.
Will you guys please take my crappy Japanese made knives from me?


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## Twistington (Sep 7, 2014)

knyfeknerd said:


> I'm about to go to 100% Richmond knives made by Lamson.
> Will you guys please take my crappy Japanese made knives from me?



Sounds like someone forgot... http://www.rhinoknives.com/

NEEDS MORE SPEEDHOLES!


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## Lefty (Sep 7, 2014)

I'm going to go back and read from Sabaki's comments, but I want to make it clear that I do not dislike Japanese knives, and I, in fact, still love them. I've just noticed that my knives are slowly but surely becoming more and more "American Made" (except Will and Pierre). It's not been something I've done intentionally, but rather something that has just happened. Great knives are great knives, regardless of where they are made. Without the Japanese kitchen knives we so often discuss and heap praise upon, the American makers of today would still be making fancy versions of German knives. 

A Shigefusa is an incredible knife, as is one made by Michael Rader. A Heiji is great, much like a Harner. Tanakas are wonderful pieces, as are Tsourkans. Place of origin doesn't matter, in the grand scheme of things, but what does matter is the understanding and skill of the smith making your piece.


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## panda (Sep 7, 2014)

the american makers focus more on fit & finish and look than anything else. grind to me is the key to cutting performance and domestic stuff falls short in that department.


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## Mrmnms (Sep 7, 2014)

Is Ginsu made in America. "Cuts through a tin can and slices a tomato this thin!" I guess I could throw in a few Japanese Gyutos with Chris then .


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 7, 2014)

panda said:


> the american makers focus more on fit & finish and look than anything else. grind to me is the key to cutting performance and domestic stuff falls short in that department.



What knives are you basing that conclusion on?


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## MAS4T0 (Sep 7, 2014)

Sabaki said:


> you are about to bring out my swedish words again:biggrin::biggrin:
> 
> so you think forge welding is all the same no matter how or by who it is prodused?
> 
> ...



If there are no weld flaws there's no functional difference. 

I do like the option to select a pattern of my choosing, but I am also very fond of the pattern on my Stainless Z-Kramer parer. 

Hand made Damascus is an expensive thing to produce, if you want a cheap knife with Damascus it will invariably be machine made or of incredibly low quality. I'd prefer cheap machine made Damascus then cheap hand made Damascus.


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## JohnnyChance (Sep 7, 2014)

I agree with MAS4T0 and panda/mistacoopa to an extent. I have a ton of knives, both American and Japanese made. I have bought more Japanese knives of late than American, but I also started buying customs too early in my collecting. Once I was comfortable spending more than $300 or so on a knife, I thought, why not spend a little bit more and get a custom instead? Sure, the Japanese make really nice knives in the $100-250 range, but with at least a few makers, once you are in that $350-500 range, you get some amazing performers that are finished really nicely as well. I skipped those the first time around and went back recently and bought them. And for the most part, yes, they do the job better than most of their American counterparts. I thought I had knives that cut really well, but until you use one (and are capable of noticing/appreciating its capabilities) you don't realize what a really excellent cutter feels like. 

It can also be very hard to be objective about your new & expensive purchase. You want it to be amazing. That combined with the fact that not everyone is as skilled at evaluating a knife as everyone else, I frankly don't trust most people's assessment of their knives. That includes people on and off this forum.

There is obviously value in custom knives, you get steel, configuration, handle material, etc options that you normally don't from a Japanese maker. And some of them do cut as good as anything out there. It is just a different set of expectations and value from the Japanese perspective. When it comes down to cutting ability & value, especially for a pro cook, Japanese wins every time.


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## marc4pt0 (Sep 7, 2014)

Lefty said:


> I'm going to go back and read from Sabaki's comments, but I want to make it clear that I do not dislike Japanese knives, and I, in fact, still love them. I've just noticed that my knives are slowly but surely becoming more and more "American Made" (except Will and Pierre). It's not been something I've done intentionally, but rather something that has just happened. Great knives are great knives, regardless of where they are made. Without the Japanese kitchen knives we so often discuss and heap praise upon, the American makers of today would still be making fancy versions of German knives.
> 
> A Shigefusa is an incredible knife, as is one made by Michael Rader. A Heiji is great, much like a Harner. Tanakas are wonderful pieces, as are Tsourkans. Place of origin doesn't matter, in the grand scheme of things, but what does matter is the understanding and skill of the smith making your piece.




I like everything this guy just said.

I will also agree with much, but not all, of Johnnychance just said. 
My Kochi, Konosuke Fujiyama, Moritaka, and Shig all performed on levels that are hard to beat. Now these are the highest I've gone with Japanese knives, and I'm aware there are many great, if not better ones out there. In fact, the 240 Sakai Yusuke I picked up off the Bay was down right amazing. And that was like what, $250 shipped? 

A good knife is just that,a good knife. What I think might be the bee's knees, one might think is crapolyaye. 

And I'm glad to see WillC chime in, this guy is making amazing stuff and he's in the UK. So take that, America and Japan...


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## Zwiefel (Sep 7, 2014)

I will do this for you...but only b/c I love you want you to be happy. Send me that Takeda/Caviar Server right away. 



knyfeknerd said:


> I'm about to go to 100% Richmond knives made by Lamson.
> Will you guys please take my crappy Japanese made knives from me?


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## labor of love (Sep 7, 2014)

panda said:


> the american makers focus more on fit & finish and look than anything else. grind to me is the key to cutting performance and domestic stuff falls short in that department.



Sorry guys, but Panda is correct here. When it comes to actual good grinds and cutting performance american makers have alot of catching up to do. I know its wrong to bite the hand that feeds, and this forum probably wouldnt even exist without all the american vendors but its the truth as Ive experienced it.


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## Von blewitt (Sep 7, 2014)

You can't lump all US makers in one box, some make knives with exceptional grinds others not so much. The same can be said for Japanese makers. I'll agree that on a Dollar for Dollar basis Japanese knives offer better value. But I don't base my purchases soley on value for money. And am happy with the range of knives I have at the moment which is a mix of both.


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## labor of love (Sep 7, 2014)

Von blewitt said:


> You can't lump all US makers in one box, some make knives with exceptional grinds others not so much. The same can be said for Japanese makers. I'll agree that on a Dollar for Dollar basis Japanese knives offer better value. But I don't base my purchases soley on value for money. And am happy with the range of knives I have at the moment which is a mix of both.



Youre right. However this thread seems to be founded on generalizations about makers based on their nationality. So if others are willing to speak generally then so am I. And generally speaking American makers fall behind in practically every category with the only exception being custom handles.


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## Von blewitt (Sep 7, 2014)

I don't agree with that.... Different strokes


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## Chuckles (Sep 7, 2014)

For me, one you get to the $500 mark in a gyuto you are buying something that goes beyond getting a tool to cut food. You are just indulging past that point and you should be able to get what you want for special features.

At $600-700 range I have had a Rader 'mid tech' and a Watanabe Honyaki. Both were great knives. My opinion was that I would probably rather have a cheaper Watanabe that I wouldn't mind being a little harder on and that I would like a more expensive Rader to get his full F&F shock and awe routine. It all depends on what you are looking for from a knife or from the maker.

I have found that I really favor weight distribution in a knife. So many japanese knives come with generic handles that throw off the balance too much for me. I like that many of the American makers put so much thought into the handle and the whole package of the knife often saya included.

That being said my Itou knives with western stag handles hit me right in my spot the same way the American makers do with weight distribution, comfort and aesthetics. And my Devin ITK has one the best simple, elegant, precisely crafted Wa handles I have used.

If you know what you want you can find a Japanese maker that is making exactly that and doing it very well. Depending on what you are looking for you may be able to find an American maker that does it every bit as well as his/her Japanese counterpart.


And to answer the question: I am leaning towards American made knives at work lately. Marko, 2 Mario, 2 Ealy, 2 Harner. At home it is 2 Itou, Takeda, Watanabe.

Go figure.


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## MikeHL (Sep 8, 2014)

labor of love said:


> Youre right. However this thread seems to be founded on generalizations about makers based on their nationality. So if others are willing to speak generally then so am I. And generally speaking American makers fall behind in practically every category with the only exception being custom handles.



I hate to generalize but I have to agree, most of the American blade making talent is making hunting knives and fighters. While they look cool I don't think they make good kitchen knives. Of course are are exceptions but we are speaking generally. Tho once we get up to the the high $ customs its more about the skill of the maker then his/her nationality. 

That being said, the Japanese are light years ahead of anyone in producing high quality mid range $ (2-400) cutlery. They still having a cutlery industry amazing blades in vast quantities. What would be awesome if there was a North American Manufacturer that can go toe to toe with the Japanese.


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## Chuckles (Sep 8, 2014)

> That being said, the Japanese are light years ahead of anyone in producing high quality mid range $ (2-400) cutlery. They still having a cutlery industry amazing blades in vast quantities. What would be awesome if there was a North American Manufacturer that can go toe to toe with the Japanese.



Yup.


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## Chefu (Sep 8, 2014)

This is a great thread -- provoking a lot of good debate. Without our fine Japanese cutlery we wouldn't have the later "Western makers" getting into the kitchen knife business. I wish I could say which I like better, but unfortunately I'm still waiting for a chance to own most of the American made knives. The "best can only be objective to a point", and then, like food itself, it becomes subjective. Besides the fact that so many of us on the forums look for performance, there are many more that weigh that performance along with the pure art or craftsmanship of the knife itself. If not, we wouldn't be shelling out more than $400 for any given knife. One thing I can say is, that after seeing what both the high level Japanese and American makers put out, it's hard to see how they are getting rich on such fine tools. O.K. except Mr. Kramer  I applaud both Eastern and Western makers for what they do.


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## CB1968 (Sep 8, 2014)

Everyone has a different opinion of a great knife, I love my Japanese knives but I also love my US and European knives, they are all different and have pros and cons, i have a nice selection of different knives from various makers and I honestly enjoy using all of them, when I am done I pass the knife on and try something different this is a great way of trying different grinds, steels, profiles etc without going broke, I take my hat off to the craftsmen that make these awesome tools and I only wish I had half their talent.


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## Salty dog (Sep 8, 2014)

Where to start? 

I wouldn't generalize. Most of the makers I've used, both foreign and domestic have specific characteristics. If you're familiar with those characteristics you can choose a knife that will fit your specific need. 
I also will say the North American makers have come a long way in the last few years. Especially with cutting performance.
In my top five two are Japanese and three North American. I think it would be reasonable to say I've used a few.
I also agree in the sub $400 category Japanese stands out.


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## XooMG (Sep 8, 2014)

I have had issues with email correspondence with many makers and vendors about details, both in Japanese and English. Those details help me figure out whether a particular purchase is up my alley or not. I'm not particularly keen on waiting several months on a gamble for a blade that might not suit my cutting style because the maker couldn't be arsed to talk a bit about their geometry.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 8, 2014)

I was just curious was Misacoopa didn't like about Non-Japanese made knives. I'm not arguing because I agree with him to an extent. 

I liken American knives to American craft beer. Anyone can buy brewing equipment and develop their own recipe and can brew beer. It might even get it to taste pretty good. Then compare that same style of beer to one that has been brewed for hundreds of years. You'll find that on the surface they both taste similar, the much older recipe will have greater depth of character, subtle nuance that make it far superior. 

I'll admit to not having owned many us Knife Makers I've used Haburn, Marko, Forgecraft, MAC). 

So far the only custom I can justify is my DT ITK. I have a WS Kramer Meiji too but I'm not sure you can call that American made. The DT is my reference cutter however, on par are my Kono. Wide Double Bevel Ginsan's, the Yusuke Sakai. 

Most of my knives are Japanese for a reason, because I believe that they have mastered a craft that is not easily reproduced.


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## WiscoNole (Sep 8, 2014)

panda said:


> i have zero interest in ANY of the american knives.



same. they just don't have the same allure and mystique.


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## cheflarge (Sep 8, 2014)

So let me get this staight...... even though I agree with the two thousand years of tradition..... to say that, with the advancements in technology, all customs are inferior & have absolutely no place in a j-knife conversation, to me is just stupid & closed minded. IMO


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## daveb (Sep 8, 2014)

Whoa, the OP solicited opinions and opinions are what he's getting. Lots of them. Don't think that anyone's opinions are stupid or that opinions of opinions are whats being asked for.

For me, stainless clad knives work best and I find these mostly available from Japanese makers. This is where I'll start looking when considering future purchases. That's not to say I'm giving up my Marko petty, Ealy "line" knife and parers, Carters or Harners. Nor Shigs, Tads or Suisins.


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## JohnnyChance (Sep 8, 2014)

cheflarge said:


> So let me get this staight...... even though I agree with the two thousand years of tradition..... to say that, with the advancements in technology, all customs are inferior & have absolutely no place in a j-knife conversation, to me is just stupid & closed minded. IMO



I don't think anyone said they have no place in the conversation. In fact, we are having a conversation right now that includes them. I have a pile of custom knives. Nearly one from every maker. Ones I don't have, I have handled or used in most cases. I like them all, I love some of them and others I would never part with. But I love them for entirely different reasons than why I love my Japanese made knives. And for me, which is personal opinion, when it comes down to value and cutting performance, the Japanese do have American makers beat. That is why I love them. I love my American (or Western) made knives for their customization, working with the craftsman to get what I want, for usually cutting very, very well, for their modern steel, uniqueness, etc, etc. They are great in a different way and usually cost more, sometimes 2, 3, 4 times as much. But again for me personally, after collecting for a long time as a professional cook, I have decided that the value offered by Japanese knives in terms of functionality and cutting performance is unmatched. So far.


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## cheflarge (Sep 8, 2014)

Yea, you're right..... That is why I usually don't respond to these threads..... TOTALLY one sided and NEVER constructive.


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## JohnnyChance (Sep 8, 2014)

This thread is totally not one sided and there have been a lot of great points raised on both sides, so I think it has been constructive. I actually received a comment from someone remarking on how civilized this thread was for the debate it generated.


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## The Edge (Sep 8, 2014)

I'm leaning more and more towards American makers. That's not to say that I find Japanese knives inferior, or vice versa. If I were a professional chef, I would probably go more towards Japanese right now, for the main reason, that I would be sharpening the knife to the point where, given ten or fifteen years, it would be worn to a nub. My own belief right now is that, since my sharpening is limited to every few months right now, I know the knives I have will last my lifetime, and I'll probably get to pass them down. I'm taking a gamble in thinking that the American knives will be worth more in the future (I believe this due to cultural differences that I won't get into right now). So for my lifestyle, I'm justifying that move. We all have different criteria for picking a knife, and nothing is right or wrong, as long as it makes sense to you. 

This is not to say that I won't ever buy a Japanese blade again, but for the time being, my focus is pointed elsewhere.

That being said, I don't think a country of origin marks whether a knife is good or bad, but the maker's own determination in creating a blade from scratch.


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## cheflarge (Sep 8, 2014)

Amen


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## panda (Sep 9, 2014)

here's one for extreme - if you put a zakuri and one of the murcan customs in front of me, guess which one i would pick up to use? hint: not the pretty one.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Sep 9, 2014)

panda said:


> here's one for extreme - if you put a zakuri and one of the murcan customs in front of me, guess which one i would pick up to use? hint: not the pretty one.


Unless you also specify the reasons behind this decision, it sounds pretty fanatical. I'm a big fan of Zakuri knives myself, but there's a big difference between high end custom US knives (I'm referencing to Rader, Burke, Marko, DT or many others). 

If I pay over 400$ for a custom kitchen knife, I expect it to both perform flawlessly and have a great F&F. No matters where this knife was made. 

Speaking on the thread topic, I think all generalizations are pretty inaccurate (including this one). "moving All Amerikan Makers" is a very broad statement I haven't seen many KKF members moving to All American  Rada cutlery for example  Being a non US member, I'm lacking any patriotic feelings about US makers (or any other makers for that matters), so my choice is based purely on the expectations about performance and look&feel. So far I have only one custom knife, and it was made by Canadian maker, so it's too early for me to talk about them. But I'm currently waiting to get knives from DT and Marko. There are also custom knife makers from Russia and Poland that I'd like to get knives from one day, so for me country of origin isn't a deciding factor.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 12, 2014)

This is a REALLY interesting topic to me...but since I'm kind of a biased party, I don't feel it's really right to give my opinion lol. Suffice it to say I'm curious what all of your opinions are (and why)...and am content to follow along .

Carry on!


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## marc4pt0 (Sep 12, 2014)

Good to see ya, Cris!


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 12, 2014)

marc4pt0 said:


> Good to see ya, Cris!



Thanks!

I've been around, mostly lurking and enjoying the chit chat .


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## chinacats (Sep 14, 2014)

What a great thread!

I'm with Panda, the performance of J-knives overall (in comparable price range) is much better than their North American counterparts. 

My favorite knife from outside of Japan is actually German (Tilman Leder). Not saying better, but every bit as good in the performance as well as fit and finish as any NA knife I've had the pleasure to own or use (OK, Marko has the best fit and finish, but other than that...). Seriously, Leder makes one of the best performers period, and his price and turnaround exceeds everyone except maybe Heiji who can pump out a knife...speaking of performance we wind up back in Japan.

Not to say that the NA makers aren't putting out great products, hopefully they will stay inspired to match or even exceed their counterparts in Japan. Just trying to keep it real here. :running:


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## Vesteroid (Sep 14, 2014)

Have been holding off this thread, because I am new to the technical side of knives, but it's hard to argue with generations of training and an apprenticeship system as compared to many who are simply self taught. 

Very general statement and I see no reason on a case by case basis there is any correlation between county and quality.


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## Chuckles (Sep 14, 2014)

I think the existence of a forum like this one puts the 'simply selt taught' aspect into a grey area. New ways for rapid sharing and demonstration of knowledge make the development of these new 'modern' makers a fascinating process to watch. It is like watching evolution through time lapse photography. Someone like Marko has an army of Chef's for critical feedback, Devin for coaching on heat treat, Shigefusa and Mizuno to inspire grinds, Carter and Kramer to unlock the American market, and a whole internet community to egg him on. 

I think this is actually the reason I am leaning toward American makers right now.


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 14, 2014)

Salty dog said:


> Where to start?
> 
> I wouldn't generalize. Most of the makers I've used, both foreign and domestic have specific characteristics. If you're familiar with those characteristics you can choose a knife that will fit your specific need.
> I also will say the North American makers have come a long way in the last few years. Especially with cutting performance.
> ...



Agree I never had a do it all knife, found several different blades for various tasks. All my work knives were Japanese as said because not willing to spend big bucks when had good performing blades that I wore down with use. I know am biased toward Japanese knives for how well they cut.

I have not owned any American customs. Have sharpened a couple Carters. Was pretty impressed with those knives. Know you use knives a lot, so having a few American blades in your kit says it. If someone wants a really nice custom and has the money go for it. Nothing wrong with pride of ownership of a stunning blade & handle.


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## panda (Sep 15, 2014)

keith what is the most fancy japanese one you have, is it that tamahagane one? how are you liking that one still?


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 15, 2014)

Still do like my Yoshimitsu Tamahagane. It is high bevel super thin below the bevel glides through food. I noticed A-Frames sold out of the 210 wa gyuto's but ordered two more. So I guess someone else out there has a Yoshimitsu. They are relatively rare as Tamahagane kitchen knives nobody goes to that much labor & the brothers are very old.

The knife use the most is Konosuke Fujiyama blue#2 240mm gyuto. Another high bevel knife. Like the geometry of the carbon high bevel blades. Bought a couple more carbons at good price on BST here. An older Takeda 270mm which rehandled and a Singatirin V2 Honyaki. Everyone has different likes in knives respect that. I lean toward Japanese hand forged carbons.


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## 29palms (Sep 26, 2014)

This has been a great thread and very civil thank you. I enjoyed the discussion volley and the diversity of opinions and seriously I never meant to ruffle anyone's feathers. Tho some of y'all did tip your hands. :groucho:


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 26, 2014)

Chuckles said:


> I think the existence of a forum like this one puts the 'simply selt taught' aspect into a grey area. New ways for rapid sharing and demonstration of knowledge make the development of these new 'modern' makers a fascinating process to watch. It is like watching evolution through time lapse photography. Someone like Marko has an army of Chef's for critical feedback, Devin for coaching on heat treat, Shigefusa and Mizuno to inspire grinds, Carter and Kramer to unlock the American market, and a whole internet community to egg him on.
> 
> I think this is actually the reason I am leaning toward American makers right now.



For reasons I can't go into here, I feel this is one of the most astute observations I've ever seen on the forums. I've handled a few Japanese knives in the last year, and honestly they're relatively impressive given their price point. Simple, but still impressive. The truly funny thing is, it's the simple qualities in them that ALLOW them to be impressive. Ultra thin core steel with soft iron cladding doesn't warp in the heat treat the way monosteel blades do. This means they can beat them thin thin thin with a hollow behind the blade road, heat treat them (no need to spend hours straightening them after heat treat, or lose 3 of 5 blades to warpage), then grind a secondary bevel/edge on them in 15 minutes and bam...you have a stiff knife that's ultra thin and nothing sticks to it...for far less than a similarly performing blade from a non-Japanese maker. Most non-Japanese custom makers have a far, far different process, and the price reflects it. Add to that, that a number of the custom makers are a one man show, supporting their family off of their work, as compared to a small business venture with employees and far greater volume capabilities, and the pricing suddenly makes sense.

If you'll note, I never said 'American' makers. I think the real comparison here is the Japanese vs everyone else. Makers like Will and Pierre face the same issues that custom American makers do. Custom knives from outside of Japan are all going to be similar in terms of fit and finish and overall quality. This isn't the sole province of American smiths, whereas the 'small factory' mindset...regardless of the end quality of the knife...is really very Asian.

Though, Murray is currently pushing a similar methodology here in the US. But...then again, he learned it somewhere...where was that again...?


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## JBroida (Sep 26, 2014)

I think you'd be surprised by how much time is spent straightening... even on clad blades. I swear i straighten when making knives more than anything else that i do. Clad knives, mono steel, etc. Just different ways everyone straightens there than here.


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## 29palms (Sep 26, 2014)

So Jon are you saying the small American "crafters" are paying more attention to detail and craft than the Japanese production shops?


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## JBroida (Sep 26, 2014)

29palms said:


> So Jon are you saying the small American "crafters" are paying more attention to detail and craft than the Japanese production shops?



No... Rather that straightening processes are different and Japan does indeed spend a lot of time straightening too


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## Vesteroid (Sep 26, 2014)

I'm sorry but do we really believe reading something here translates to the equivalent of having a master craftsman teaching you for a generation?

In a craft manufacturing system, there is no substitute for an apprenticeship.


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## Chuckles (Sep 26, 2014)

I guess my take on the impact of a forum like this one goes beyond just reading posts. It includes developing relationships, exchanging ideas and experiences, get togethers, hammer-ins, visits to master smith shops, trips to japan etc... These are things the makers here do and the internet and this forum definitely help foster these relationships and experiences. 

Other aspects like the modern heat treat oven help take a step like heat treating and make it executable without needing to spend years learning how to judge the color of the steel while in the coals of the fire. 



> In a craft manufacturing system, there is no substitute for an apprenticeship



I would be one of the last people to devalue apprenticeship as a valuable learning process. I learned my craft (which is not knife making) through low wage apprenticeship style work and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I do also credit Julia Child with Master Chefs videos (from the internet) as playing a role in my development years. 

The overhead costs incurred by utilizing new technologies available to the modern knife maker play a large part in why custom knives from outside Japan often have a higher price point. A coal forge, a hammer, a sen, a grinding wheel, some stones, and a few apprentices definitley helps drive prices down when compared to multiple 2X72 grinders, an evenheat oven, power hammer, dust extraction, cryo materials, and a solo head of household maker. The current exchange rate certainly helps the american and european customer as well.

Please do not take this as me being against non american makers. I have my first Shigefusa on the way and I am very excited to get it into rotation!


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 27, 2014)

Chuckles said:


> I guess my take on the impact of a forum like this one goes beyond just reading posts. It includes developing relationships, exchanging ideas and experiences, get togethers, hammer-ins, visits to master smith shops, trips to japan etc... These are things the makers here do and the internet and this forum definitely help foster these relationships and experiences.
> 
> Other aspects like the modern heat treat oven help take a step like heat treating and make it executable without needing to spend years learning how to judge the color of the steel while in the coals of the fire.
> 
> ...



Again, spot on. Every single bit of it. 

Particularly the part in bold though. I wanted to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. I have an immeasurable level of respect for the Japanese culture and their results in just about every arena...not just bladesmithing. Some of the ways the Japanese are doing things are definitely ways non-Japanese smiths could learn to emulate to their benefit. As Jon mentioned, straightening for example. Two edge slotted 2x4's, and a 2x4 with a hole slotted in the center (all three with handles roughed in on them) can be a game changer for a non-Japanese smith who is used to straightening with a vice. You can remove twists, bends, waffled edges...etc, all with the strength of your own hands. Generations of learning passed down that started with straightening swords that had taken a set...aren't to be discounted. That said (and I know Jon mentioned straightening monosteel blades as well...I'm not entirely sure how this applies to that in a Japanese smithy), straightening a monosteel blade out of a high carbon US steel...at the level of hardness we require for performance...is something you do at tempering heat, and not below...unless you like your blades in pieces. We all just have different methods developed from different experiences...and everyone is trying to apply them to the same end goal.



Vesteroid said:


> I'm sorry but do we really believe reading something here translates to the equivalent of having a master craftsman teaching you for a generation?
> 
> In a craft manufacturing system, there is no substitute for an apprenticeship.



Honestly, this is completely untrue when taken on an individual basis. I know a couple of American makers whose work I'd put up against the best Japanese made blades out there...with money on the outcome, both in and out of the kitchen. None of them had anyone to teach them but the internet, and their own hard work and dedication. Some of the American swordsmiths working in the Japanese style have done so much to further the performance of those blades its not even funny...all without the benefit of an apprenticeship system. Added to that, some of the most ridiculous forging and heat treating methods I've ever heard have come from American smiths trained by Japanese masters. I can name two specifically, though I won't out of an abiding respect for the men themselves. Both are considered masters in their own right, by the way.

Traditions formed by the apprenticeship system can often be a shackle...probably in equal measure to how much experience passed on in the same systems can be a benefit. In my opinion this applies universally.


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## cheflarge (Sep 27, 2014)

Wow, superbly stated, Cris.


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## Vesteroid (Sep 27, 2014)

Let me expand. I have 3 ealys, I have two hhh ordered, I am going to get a dt, and a haburn.

That being said, I still stand by my statements. A few of the thousands of American makers that had great personal skill, who put in the work to learn, and who screwed up and learned from it, thus improving each time is not evidence that a highly technical skill is best learnd from the Internet vs the apprenticeship. 

If you lumped all j knives in a pile and all American knives In a pile, I suspect there would be substantial tidally higher quality from the j knives.


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## Chuckles (Sep 27, 2014)

> untrue when taken on an individual basis





> If you lumped all j knives in a pile and all American knives In a pile



We are getting into apple and oranges territory here. I would agree that while it is certainly possible for a hyper-motivated individual to become a first class bladesmith with just internet based learning if the goal is many many competent bladesmiths than the apprentice system is much more effiecient.


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## 29palms (Sep 27, 2014)

Just a couple of thoughts - 

1 - I think of "custom" in terms of a one off custom order. That said I have acquired knives from some great makers here in the states and I would include Pierre and anyone in North America as "American" What got me started was a Carter I got for 25% off, then Del Ealy ran a special run, then I picked up a used Devin in AEB-L then one in 52100, then a HHH, then a Marko "practice gyuto", then a Rader (thank you Chuck). Not "custom" work, but everyday production work where the rubber meets the road. Besides a slew of vintage carbon I have these guys are really taking kitchen cutlery in a new direction both aesthetically and performance wise. I would love to try a Burk, Mario, Martell, and a few others, but I'm not resource rich. 

2 - Look how the members of this forum have inspired many to attempt a rehandle, buy equipment, set up home shops and really explore the tools we use in the kitchen every day. Look at Stereo Pete - what a nice garage space shop he has now - and he's doing it, getting feedback from every action, discovering the craft. I recently purchased a 2x72 belt grinder and am looking for a decent anvil and will probably build a forge next year and who knows. The limit is the desire to commit to the learning curve and that has been tempered some thanks to the internet and the professionals and amateurs willing to share what they know and love.


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## TDj (Sep 27, 2014)

This is a fascinating thread. As someone who came over from the old KF/FF days, back when we were still buying knives from korin and jck, when the big dogs people aspired to were primarily Shigefusa and Itou and Hattori KD (and waiting for a powdered steel Hattori FH), when Suisin IH was "the" laser (Tadatsana was the newfound upstart) while Aritsugu A-type was "the" thick knife ... those were the days, right? I imagine I'll always have that nostalgic feeling when I see the kanji on the sides of a knife. While my American knife exposure is limited, there is something to be said about J knives that strikes an inexplicable chord with me. I liken it to how different old world and new world wines are to me: the new world has some great wines ... but there's something about the old world that gives it a bit of an edge for me.


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## Chuckles (Sep 27, 2014)

I think the wine analogy is very apt.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 27, 2014)

Vesteroid said:


> Let me expand. I have 3 ealys, I have two hhh ordered, I am going to get a dt, and a haburn.
> 
> That being said, I still stand by my statements. A few of the thousands of American makers that had great personal skill, who put in the work to learn, and who screwed up and learned from it, thus improving each time is not evidence that a highly technical skill is best learnd from the Internet vs the apprenticeship.
> 
> If you lumped all j knives in a pile and all American knives In a pile, I suspect there would be substantial tidally higher quality from the j knives.



My internet is out from the storms, and going into any real depth on my phone will take more effort than I'm willing to input tonight . 

To hit the key points though: 

First, how many Japanese makers do you think there are? This is an honest question, because I genuinely don't have the first clue. I can't imagine there's more than a couple hundred though. Maybe not even that. As a matter of fact, in my mind I imagine it to be substantially less than that. Regardlessfor argument's sake, let's say 100. Of those, I only ever hear of a handful that stand out. This is important to my point. 

Now, you mention thousands of American makers. I'm pretty active in those circles, and couldn't name 1000 proficient makers. I'm sure you're right that there is, but we both know we're not discussing every last American smith here. We're talking the well known, the guys you're willing to give more than $700 to for a gyutothe top say100? Of those, there's more than a handful that I hear about regularly. But that's probably a matter of where I am and my exposure. 

Anyhow, THOSE are the guys I'm comparing, not the general population of US blacksmiths that have banged out a knife. And honestly, very few of those guys I'm talking about have had any benefit from even being second generation bladesmiths, much less thousands of years of tradition. The fact that they're even being compared says a hell of a lot about the benefits of being free to learn and explore without the shackles of tradition. One generation of American bladesmithing tradition, and there they are, within a hair's breadth of a culture that's been producing this product since whatthe 1300's?

Now, understandI'm being the devil's advocate here to an extent. With the attention to detail, and absolute focus that's part and parcel of the Japanese cultureif they WERE free to explore things as the US makers dowow. But the bonds of tradition (as maintained by the apprenticeship system in place) still have them cold forging, edge packing, and heat treating by eye. 

I firmly believe that with the rate of improvement even the last five years have shown in high end US kitchen cutlery, you guys will be in for some real treats in the next five. You mentioned Ian's knives as one of your intended future purchases. Look at the grind on his latest tall gyuto. Pretty cool, and I know first hand that he's not the first to do it . 

Just some things to thin about. 

Oh, and Charlie, you're absolutely right. Apprenticeship will push out proficiency in volume, for certain. However, I still believe that being free to learn without the binding of that system will produce a higher level of proficiency, although likely with a more limited volume.


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## panda (Sep 28, 2014)

old world: all the work has already been done, and it's a matter of refining the knowledge and techniques already laid out.

new world: gonna make an unpopular opinion here and just say it 'posers', deviate as much as you want and call it 'freedom' but just because it's something new does not mean it's any good let alone better than an original that has been fine tuned.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Sep 28, 2014)

panda said:


> old world: all the work has already been done, and it's a matter of refining the knowledge and techniques already laid out.
> 
> new world: gonna make an unpopular opinion here and just say it 'posers', deviate as much as you want and call it 'freedom' but just because it's something new does not mean it's any good let alone better than an original that has been fine tuned.



Unless the knowledge and techniques in place are in fact metallurgically or otherwise wrong, you bet. And just because its something new does not mean it sucks and is at all worse than an original that has been fine tuned. 

Here's the thing though, you speak of refining knowledge and techniques already laid out, as though it would be impossible for an American smith to take those same techniques and do the same. That makes zero sense. 

Honestly, look at it like this. Charcoal forges are great. Propane forges are more efficient, and PID controlled heat treat ovens or high temperature salts are superior to both, in virtually every aspect. But by your logic, a bladesmith is a 'poser' for taking advantage of those tools. Because that is exactly the kind of improvements I'm talking about. Another example. Jon just bought about the best 2x72 belt grinder money can purchase. Does that make him a 'poser' as well? Good logic holds up across the board, you can't pick and choose where its applied. If by your commentary one is a 'poser' for exploring new (sometimes radically so) technology to improve upon old, we're all posers. 

And seriously, using thecword 'poser' to describe a person is more of a blatantly 'rude' comment, rather than just 'unpopular'. Not saying that's how you meant it, but that's how it comes across. Where I'm from calling someone a 'poser' is about the same as spitting in their faces. Its combative in a rather aggressive way. 



I should probably duck out of this one guys. Its obvious I'm being misunderstood. I have nothing against tradition and even holding to it when warranted. I've also said that I feel that non-Japanese smiths could take many lessons from their Japanese counterparts. 

That doesn't make the fact that they could do the same any less true, nor does it take away from the huge leaps westerners have taken in the last however many years in improving this art. 'Posers' or not.


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## 29palms (Sep 28, 2014)

I think there are those that use and have a great knowledge of what they use and there are tinkerers who see the potential in 'READY MADE' work and a lot of us fall into that category. Then there are those of us who genuinely want to learn the trade, but our only avenues are things like forums and video.


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## CB1968 (Sep 28, 2014)

A good knife is good knife, buy more knives so you can make your own founded judgements and opinions, sell the ones you don't like and buy some more eventually you will end up with a collection of knives that you will have issues as to which one to use (because they are all so awesome), I love some of my Japanese knives but I also love some of my non Japanese knives, notice I have included the word *some, that is because it is difficult to heap everything into Japanese and non Japanese, I have had crap Japanese knives and I have had crap non Japanese knives, go out investigate and try different steels, makers and grinds you will soon know what and where your preferences lie.*


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## Casaluz (Nov 13, 2014)

My only experience has been with Carter and it was almost by chance. I am very happy I did it


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