# Can't get shaving sharp. Where am I going wrong?



## Mugflub (Jan 18, 2020)

I'm having a rough time getting my knives shaving sharp. They're fine for most practical uses, but I want to understand why I can't hit this mark. I'm suspecting it might just be that I move the knife back and forth rather quickly on the stone and don't have the most consistent angle, but it's not grossly inconsistent either (I don't think). Below is a photo of the most recent knife I sharpened. I find narrower knives are much more challenging, too.

My general progression looks like this: 

- Reprofile on Norton 220 using lower angle. I don't pick a specific angle, I just try to keep it shallow and consistent. Back and forth motion until burr forms on one side. Repeat on the other. Alternate edge-leading strokes on each side (20ish) and finish with edge-trailing strokes on each side (10ish)
- Repeat same process of creating burr on each side, but with Norton 1000 grit.
- 4000 grit Norton stone, roughly 20 careful edge-leading and edge-trailing strokes on each side.
- 8000 grit Norton stone, roughly 20 careful edge-leading and edge-trailing strokes on each side.
- Leather strop, edge-trailing, 20ish strokes, slightly higher angle than sharpening, low pressure.







I'm aware this is a pretty wavy bevel. I think I went a little too fast and rough on the lower grits. Not sure how much that would affect final sharpness.


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## Garner Harrison (Jan 18, 2020)

From my little experience, it seems like you are not actually contacting the edge when sharpening. Cause I can see polish/shine on the upper parts of the bevel but not towards the actual edge.

Maybe you left it out, but are you sharpening via getting a burr on one side, flipping it then doing the same until you get a burr on that side and then removing the burr. Then stropping the blade to get the final edge.

The sharpie trick should help with knowing where you are removing material! 

Also are you sure you are not rounding your edge on the strop? Because leather can bend around the blade and remove the cutting edge if you are not careful.


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## Mugflub (Jan 19, 2020)

Garner Harrison said:


> From my little experience, it seems like you are not actually contacting the edge when sharpening. Cause I can see polish/shine on the upper parts of the bevel but not towards the actual edge.
> 
> Maybe you left it out, but are you sharpening via getting a burr on one side, flipping it then doing the same until you get a burr on that side and then removing the burr. Then stropping the blade to get the final edge.
> 
> ...



I used the sharpie trick once and was contacting the edge. I think the problem is remembering that angle and keeping it consistent. I think I just suck at maintaining an angle properly and have no clue how to improve. 

I don't think the strop is causing an issue. My understanding is it should be shaving sharp even after the 1000 grit if done properly. I test sharpness at every stage. It usually catches on my fingernail, but generally won't shave unless I use some pressure.

I mention the creation of a burr on the 220 and 1000 stone. I stop looking for a burr after 1000 grit.


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## Garner Harrison (Jan 19, 2020)

For me, I make a little burr on every stone moving up normally when I'm not rushing it and I get wicked razor sharp edges.

Don't forget you can take sharpening slowly, and increase your speed with confidence. You may see experts going really fast and feel pressured to go as fast as them but remember you can take it slow. I for awhile and still do, count my strokes on each part of the knife. Sometimes I pause in between each section to make sure my angle is still right.

Also with the curve of the blade, are you sure you are applying even pressure?


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## Mugflub (Jan 19, 2020)

Garner Harrison said:


> For me, I make a little burr on every stone moving up normally when I'm not rushing it and I get wicked razor sharp edges.
> 
> Don't forget you can take sharpening slowly, and increase your speed with confidence. You may see experts going really fast and feel pressured to go as fast as them but remember you can take it slow. I for awhile and still do, count my strokes on each part of the knife. Sometimes I pause in between each section to make sure my angle is still right.
> 
> Also with the curve of the blade, are you sure you are applying even pressure?


I am fully, completely, 100% not sure 

Good advice, thanks. Do you use less pressure as you move up in grit?


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## Garner Harrison (Jan 19, 2020)

I use generally the same pressure throughout but I do lighten a bit every stone I move up, I do even lighter pressure for removing a burr or final edge strokes.

Another perhaps tip is to not too apply too much pressure and instead take more passes on the stone. But pressure is something you will need to play around with to find what works for you. The most important thing is being consistent with it!


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## The Edge (Jan 19, 2020)

I would worry less about counting strokes, and more about feeling the edge as I go along. Building a burr, flipping it, and then working both sides gradually to reduce and remove the burr. If you are raising a burr at the beginning, then I suspect you are not completely removing it by the end, and have a wire edge that is "being a bugger." Work at the lowest grit stone until you can get the blade feeling sharp on that alone.

You're right that keeping a consistent angle is key, so pay attention to how high the spine is off the stone as a guide, and try to maintain that. But the key into knowing what's going on, is to pay attention to every step. You'll know the burr is gone when the blade bites aggressively into your finger pads.


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## Garner Harrison (Jan 19, 2020)

Or you can use your finger nails, a tip I learned from Jon.


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## TB_London (Jan 19, 2020)

Looks like a pretty thick knife made out of run of the mill stainless. The stones after the 1k aren’t going to be going you any favours on that knife. Try a 1k edge, deburred and then stropped. I’d also focus more on having a working edge that cuts well rather than sharpness tests.


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## Kristoffer (Jan 19, 2020)

Could be that you are seeing the Elsa effect: Your edge shows bling bling, but is too rounded to shave.


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## lemeneid (Jan 19, 2020)

Good technique is important and the fundamentals have been covered by posters above, but I just want to add one more thing, that knife in the picture looks like some no brand knife made from cheap stainless steel, if so, good luck getting it shaving sharp. Cheap stainless are notoriously difficult to get sharp because they're soft the edge can roll, even on stones and while stropping, so whilst flipping the burr, you are rolling the edge so you can never get it clean off. Nothing to do with lack of skill, but even experienced guys find it frustrating to sharpen cheap stainless. Cheap stainless won't easily take or hold a good edge over 600-800 because they are so difficult to sharpen and deburr, every stone progression just introduces a whole level of difficulty.

Try sharpening on better quality stainless or carbons and you'll notice how much easier it will be to get them silly sharp.


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## Ochazuke (Jan 19, 2020)

As an extra thought to Lemeneid’s post: I appreciate that your trying to learn good technique. But kinda like with musical instruments, it’s hard to work on the fundamentals if your tools aren’t so great. You _can_ do it, it’s just that much harder though. 

It’s easier to learn good technique fundamentals on carbon, even if it’s cheap carbon. If you like more western style knives and don’t wanna break the bank, I think the Old Hickory knives are usually carbon (and like $10).


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## Xenif (Jan 19, 2020)

Agree to most of above, except the reality is if you ever sharpen other peoples knives, its gonna be crap stainless, so be patient and keep practicing (with carbon so you see *** you are doing right/wrong) and then apply those skills to stainless.


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## daveb (Jan 19, 2020)

Lot of good advice above. Technique is a learned thing and involves muscle memory. If your knife is sharper when you're done than it was when you started you've started to become proficient.

Will caution that with any knife, especially those with soft steel, that stropping at the end can easily round the edge and undo what you've accomplished on the stones. Suggest you lose the strop until you've become more proficient with the stones.


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## Jville (Jan 19, 2020)

Agree with what has been said. What is the knife you are sharpening. If it some BS stainless, you could be banging your head against the wall for no reason. Not that it's impossible, because you can get some of them to shave. But it's not really worth the headache, especially when you are learning. Also if a knife is not damaged, like having chips or at least microchips, you can often start higher like a 1k. This could help some if you are producing a bad wire edge. I haven't used Norton 1k, so I'm not sure about their cutting speed. I use shapton 1k, so consider that in my advice.


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## kayman67 (Jan 19, 2020)

How was this technique developed? Doesn't seem to work in general for you.


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 19, 2020)

Try the DMT angle guide, great for beginners to stay at a constant angle.


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## Mugflub (Jan 19, 2020)

To clarify, it's a Wusthof, but I'm not sure if that means much by itself. It's my dad's and I borrowed it from him because I'm running out of things to sharpen.


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## Mugflub (Jan 19, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> How was this technique developed? Doesn't seem to work in general for you.


It's an attempt to utilize the info I've learned from roughly eight million YouTube videos. Is there any part of the technique that seems glaringly bad?


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 20, 2020)

In the first Karate Kid Movie Daniel is worried that he has not learned enough moves to survive in the tournament next day. 

Mr. Miyagi tells him it's not quantity it's quality. True in Karate and in sharpening.


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## DisconnectedAG (Jan 20, 2020)

It's almost always, almost almost always, pressure. Your angle is probably fine-ish, although you admit it may be inconsistent. But your progression looks like a classical 'i'll round the edge later'. I've done thee same many times.

I would say skip the 8k and the strop for now. You should be practicing until you get shaving sharp off the 1k and 4k stones. Some users will probably say shaving off 1k but personally I find that a lot of work. Your 1k should set the bevel. The knife should be sharp and cut after that. Pass the tomato test, easily cut newspaper, etc. 4k is just refining the edge. Should easily cut kitchen roll after 4k.

Lastly, we're all learning, so don't get disheartened. I can personally report heaps of mistakes. And when you fix one, new ones open up. It's a lovely journey.


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## DisconnectedAG (Jan 20, 2020)

Garner Harrison said:


> From my little experience, it seems like you are not actually contacting the edge when sharpening. Cause I can see polish/shine on the upper parts of the bevel but not towards the actual edge.
> 
> Maybe you left it out, but are you sharpening via getting a burr on one side, flipping it then doing the same until you get a burr on that side and then removing the burr. Then stropping the blade to get the final edge.
> 
> ...


Exactly this. People shouldn't strop until they're really proficient. I've only recently started stropping, only in very limited cases when I have a stubborn burr or wire edge that shows during final cut testing.


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## rob (Jan 20, 2020)

Also try stropping at a slightly lower angle. Usually the knife edge tends to slightly "sink" into the strop and it's really easy to roll the edge.


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## vicv (Jan 20, 2020)

I agree you're going too high in grit. 8k is only necessary for a yanigiba IMO. My advice is practice till you can shave at the 220 grit stage. Once you've got that consistent then move up to higher grits. A strop can help shaving edges but generally it rounds it a bit after more than 2-3 strokes per side which is great for shaving but bad for cutting things


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## PappaG (Jan 20, 2020)

I will echo what disconnect said. How long have you been sharpening? My first 3 months of sharpening were spent on Forgecrafts. The problem with Forgecrafts is that they are kind of thick to start with. I was having the same trouble as you and quickly learned from this forum that I was not using enough pressure. Once you thin a knife, or buy a knife that is much thinner, I suspect your results will quickly improve. Until then, use more pressure on lower grit stones with those cheaper knives. when you get a thinner knife, you won't have to use so much pressure..... GL.


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## Midsummer (Jan 20, 2020)

I can get good steel so sharp the hair on my arm jumps off to avoid being cut. I had some old wusthofs (45 years old stainless) that I could not get to take an edge. Maybe this one is better. Work on a knife you know you can get sharp. And don't listen to Dad if he says it was once really sharp.


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## Nemo (Jan 20, 2020)

Lots of good advice here. I'll echo some of it and add a few of my own.

1) 8k is too fine for most kitchen use. Definitely too fine for Krupps stainless steel (i.e.: most Wustoff et al) knives FWIW, I also find it much more difficult to make these knives shaving sharp).

2) No point going beyond 1k if your knife is not sharp at 1k. Get good on your medium stone before going further. Each extra stone is an opportunity to round the edge if you are not careful.

3) A flexible strop (like leather) can flex around the edge and potentially round it, especially if you are stropping at a higher angle than your bevel. A firmer strop (such as balsa) is less likely to do this. Cereal box cardboard (not the shiny side) on a firm backing (I use my chopping board ot the bench) is a great strop, especially when laoded with diamond paste.

4) A strop can also elongate the burr (depending on the stropping medium, angle and the abrasive).

5) Burr control is essential to razor-like performance. Pressure control plays a big part here. See Pete Nowlan's (@Sailor 's) vids on the knifeplanet.net Sharpening School.

6) Are you doing a full progression with every sharpening? Sounds like a good way to waste a lot of steel. Most of my sharpenings would be a touch-up on the finest stone I will use (probably around 3-4k for fine grained steels, 1k for coarser steels like Krupps). Only when I can no longer raise a burr in short order would I add a medium stone to my progression. Only when a medium stone will no longer raise a burr in short order would I add a coarse stone to my progression.


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## chinacats (Jan 21, 2020)

Go slow...use less pressure than you think...pay attention to the sound as you progress...finally, try to relax your muscles.


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## vicv (Jan 21, 2020)

And use the force.....follow your feelings


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## gman (Jan 21, 2020)

i'm all for polishing to insanely high grits, but only for refinement, not sharpness. shaving sharp can be achieved on even the lowest grit stone if you are patient and careful enough, using progressively lighter pressure and consistent angle.  your goal should be to achieve sharpness on the first stone in your progression, not the last.


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## Desert Rat (Jan 24, 2020)

I think the bolster on that knife is a problem and causing some issues.


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## Benuser (Jan 24, 2020)

Desert Rat said:


> I think the bolster on that knife is a problem and causing some issues.


The protruding heel and front part of the blade make keeping an angle hazardous.


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