# Set of 3-4 stones on a budget (EU)



## Karnstein (Feb 16, 2015)

I'm pretty sure all the data I need is out there somewhere on this board, but my google-fu skills are still suffering from the ongoing German carnival season. 

Right now I'm at a point where I fleshed out my collection of knives. I know what kind I knives I like to use and how often the different blade styles get used in my home kitchen. There a few knives I'm going to sell without replacing them and then there are some that I want to replace with superior versions. Like swapping both my inexpensive Herder petty and nakiri for knifes with a better F&F, octagonal handles and at least similar if not superior cutting performance. But that's not something I have to rush...

What I neglected a bit during the knife shopping spree of the last few months is my sharpening setup. I'm still working with the same cheap stones I bought some times ago to fix my parents collection of completely dull Henckels knifes. But all of them are flawed enough in some aspects, that I don't want to use them on my more expensive Japanese knives. Some are too small to be of much real use, some are too narrow (2inches of less) to make me feel comfortable working on them and some take ages to soak and dry. Except for one, no stone cost me more than 20 bucks... 

Sadly most of the common options mentioned here on the board are not feasible for me. Jons Gesshin line has a good rep, but shipping&German import fees (esp. with the current exchange rate) turns them into a prohibitive choice. Pretty much anything that can't be bought in Europe is a no-go for me. Same goes for stones that costs more than 70-80, since I don't have the funds to spend 300-400 on my setup. 

Right now my knife collection looks like this (to give you some scope what kind of steels I use right now and intend to buy in the near future):

270mm W#2 Konosuke k-tip gyuto
210mm Swedish Stainless Ashi Hamono Wa-Petty (without the extra hardness option that would make it a gesshin ginga)
210mm Aogami Super Gyuto (but that may end up in BST, since I prefer working with the 210 Petty)
165mm Herder, Solingen Nakiri and 130mm Petty, made from C75 carbon steel...both will most likely be replaced with other knifes in the long run...the 130 petty with another Ashi petty (150, not sure if I go for w#2 or swedish steel with the extra hardness option), the nakiri with a bigger one (180mm) either made from V2 or W#2 steel.
a bunch of small Herder carbon peeling knifes in different shape flavors, all made from 59 HRC C75 carbon steel. 

So basically bunch of paper steels (mainly Shirogami), some cheap Euro carbon steels and Swedish Stainless. No cheap moly steel, no intention to buy PM steel...

For the stones I'm looking for the following characteristics:

- either S&G or small soaking time, don't want stones that take ages of soaking until they can be used
- won't dissolve/die on me if I get a call and forget them in the sink for an hour or two
- won't dish fast, don't need to be flattened too often (so no King stones)
- at least 70mm (more if possible) of width 
- good feedback from the stone
- street price here in Europe of 40-80 per stone, would like to stay below 60 for the low/mid grit ones. Don't mind going up to 80 for the final finishing stone. 

From the information I gathered on my own, what I at least need is a 3 stone setup. One low grid (300-500), one medium grid stone (1000-1200) and a high grit finishing stone(4-6k). After the third stone I could go even further and either add fa very fine stone (8-10k synthetic, or a small natural stone that's not too expensive...) or strop on leather that has been treated with either a diamond spray or chromium-oxide pigments. 

Brands I have looked at so far are chosera (look a bit finicky to me due to oversoaking issues and the high grid ones are pricy), Bester and Shapton pro. Bester looks like a nice "bang for your buck" line, esp. the finer grits. The 6k Bester is ~60 here in Germany, the 8k one only costs around 70...compared to 90 for a 8k Shapton pro or the 133 for a 5k chosera.

Anyone from Europe, who has some good recommendation for a 3 stones setup that's less than 150-175 Euros?


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## cheflarge (Feb 16, 2015)

King 1200 & King 6000. If you are trying to stay on a "tight" budget, this will be more than ample until you want to add on.

FYI: Chosera are my favorite stones. Remember in our little "knife nut" arena, "you get what you pay for" really does hold true. Meaning: chances are if you spend a little more money, you are getting a little better product.


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## psfred (Feb 16, 2015)

A Bester 1000 and a Suehiro Rika 5000 is about as cheap as you are going to get if you don't want King stones. If money is really tight, you can substitue a King 6000 for the Suehiro, but you probably won't save much, neither is horribly expensive.

Eventually you may want to add a coarser stone, and a Beston 500 or 700 will do fine as a fairly inexpensive setup.

Most other options are more expensive, and in many cases much more expensive, but those two will get your knives sharp, and you can always replace them later. I'm happy with my Bester stones, in particular because they wear slowly, a great advantage when sharpening woodworking tools.

Peter


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## Matus (Feb 16, 2015)

Check out fine-tools - a German online shop - they have quite a few different stone available.


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## TB_London (Feb 16, 2015)

Choseras from knivesandtools used to be pretty reasonable, dictum is another supplier and +1 to dieter Schmidt suggested by Matus


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## Benuser (Feb 16, 2015)

+1 on the Choseras with knivesandtools.de
If I had to restart I would get only the 800 and 3k -- equivalent to JIS 1200 resp. 4k. Together about 125. Get them if possible with a base.
The 800 will be very helpful with thinning carbons as well. A bit slower than the 400, but with less dishing.


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## KimBronnum (Feb 16, 2015)

contact Maksim at www.japanesenaturalstones.com and check out his site. Talk to him regarding your needs and I´m sure you can work something out. 
- Kim


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## Matus (Feb 17, 2015)

And of course +1 on Maksim. His stones (though not all) are a bit more expensive, but are truly excellent. He offers bundles where you can save some cash. Dropping him an email or calling him is indeed a good idea. At the total price you are looking at you are getting free DHL Express shipping too.

Still - fine-tolls have incredibly good price on Atoma diamond plates (if you need one for flattening).


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## Charon (Feb 17, 2015)

Hi Matus 

This is a really cheap setup I own. I believe Murray Carter used to promote a simple 1000 and 6000 grit stone setup. 
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/710990/Suehiro-Coarse-Shaping-Stone-Grit-100.htm 13.9
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/711548/Coarse-Shaping-Stone-Cerax-with-Base-400-Grit.htm 29.3
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/711011/King-Sharpening-Stone-Grit-1000.htm 22.9 
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/711003/King-Honing-Stone-Grit-6000.htm 24.9
total price 91 Euros + shipping 


You may also try to get a Shapton glass stones as they are splash and go I believe.
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/category/Shapton-4934_4938.htm

and as a flattening stone a DMT plate
http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/705382/DMT-Dia-Sharp-Bench-Stone-Extra-Extra-Coarse.htm


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## Karnstein (Feb 17, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies so far... 

Let me provide a picture of the setup I want to replace, before I go on and start replying to your comments:





From left to right, incl. a short reason what I like/dislike:

- Nameless 400/1000 combistone from the local art store. Like the width, hate how long it takes to soak&dry... also not a great cutter for the grit size. Bought it for 20 to restore my parents Henckels knives and that what it is only good enough for. 
- missarka ultra red 1000 FEPA (3-4k grit using JIS grading). My most expensive stone so far (30)... Cuts well, doesn't take more than a few minutes of soaking. But with 5cm/2" width it is too small for my liking. 
- small Roszutec natural stone. Again too small to make me feel comfortable working on, it also is extremely slow...so I don't really get a good visual feedback if close to over-polishing the edge or not compared to the missarka and the coticule
- tiny coticule I bought years ago when I had absolutely no clue about sharpening. Love how the stone behaves, but with less than 7x4cm of usable surface it's not the real tool to polish a big knife. 
- leather strop loaded with chromium-oxide, glued on on piece of balsa wood for better handling. Does okay, but again it feels a bit small to me (esp. in terms of width). 

The strop might be reusable and the cheap combistone will stay in my parents kitchen, so that I can resurrect their knives when I visit after moving out later this year. 



cheflarge said:


> King 1200 & King 6000. If you are trying to stay on a "tight" budget, this will be more than ample until you want to add on.
> 
> FYI: Chosera are my favorite stones. Remember in our little "knife nut" arena, "you get what you pay for" really does hold true. Meaning: chances are if you spend a little more money, you are getting a little better product.



Well, I'm working on a small budget, but not a tight one. The price for those two Kings (which are too soft for my liking) combined ranges from 45 to 66, depending of the dimensions of the 6k stone. And that's what I'm perfectly willing to pay for each stone, not just for the whole setup.

I do understand the "you get what you pay for" approach. Which is why I mentioned brands like chosera, bester or shapton...anything below that quality isn't big enough of a jump from my existing gear worth spending money on. I'm just not sure, if the convenience of the fast-cutting/Splash&Go choseras is worth the possible downfall of the brand: cracking from improper storing or exposure to too much water...compared to say the Imashi Bester line, who needs some minutes of soaking but is more maintenance-friendly, cuts quite well too and doesn't dish as fast as a King or my cheap combi stone does. 



psfred said:


> A Bester 1000 and a Suehiro Rika 5000 is about as cheap as you are going to get if you don't want King stones. If money is really tight, you can substitue a King 6000 for the Suehiro, but you probably won't save much, neither is horribly expensive.
> 
> Eventually you may want to add a coarser stone, and a Beston 500 or 700 will do fine as a fairly inexpensive setup.



Haven't seen a EU seller for the rika, but given my 150-175 budget I don't see any issues that would force me to downgrade a stone from a Bester or Rika to a King. A 1k bester is ~45, a 4k bester is only 10 more (55) ...a 6k bester is ~60 and the 8k bester is only 73. A 300-500 grit coarse stone costs between 30-50, depending on the grit and brand... a 320 shapton pro for example costs ~45, a 400grit chosera roughly the same and a 400 grit bester with an extra 10mm of height costs 50 at another German vendor. And as Charon said a Suehiro cerax 400grit costs less than 30. 

So it pretty much depends if I want to setup that goes way up to 8k, or if I want to stop at 6... If I stop at 6k (and then strope on the chromium-oxide leather I already own), my budget would easily allow for a low grit stone, a 1k or 1.k bester and a 6k bester as the final finishing stone. That would be between 135 and 160, depending on the brand of the coarse stone and the choice between a 1k and 1.2k bester.

If I want to go beyond that, I would swap the 6k bester for a 4k bester and then move up to either a moderately expensive 8k or a small (130x80) natural stone, which can be bought from two different german vendors for less than 80 (Dictum and Mr. Horie from japan-messer-shop ). And of course either add the 8k+ or the low grit stone somewhat later, because 4 decent stones won't sum up to 150... would be doable with a ~200 budget... 30 for the coarse stone, 100 for the 1k and 4k bester, leaving ~70 for either a 8k bester or small natural stone. 



TB_London said:


> Choseras from knivesandtools used to be pretty reasonable, dictum is another supplier and +1 to dieter Schmidt suggested by Matus



Yeah, I know...that's where I got the prices from for the bester stones in my entry post (Schmidt). I've also seen the prices on knivesandtools for the choseras, but as stated above I'm not sure if the time-saving convenience of being splash&go is worth the risk of misuse. Soaking time for the Imashi bester looks like something I'm would fine to live with... after all I'm a student and a hobby cook, so I can spare those minutes... also really like that the Bester stones have the biggest width of all the stones mentioned so far. 



Matus said:


> And of course +1 on Maksim. His stones (though not all) are a bit more expensive, but are truly excellent. He offers bundles where you can save some cash. Dropping him an email or calling him is indeed a good idea. At the total price you are looking at you are getting free DHL Express shipping too.
> 
> Still - fine-tolls have incredibly good price on Atoma diamond plates (if you need one for flattening).



Yeah, checking maksims page was the first thing I did...sadly even a three stone set (300/1200/6K) would sum up to 231, which is more than I can afford.


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## psfred (Feb 17, 2015)

Welcome to the world of sharpening stones!

You will do fine with a Bester 1200 (or 1000, they aren't that different) and a 6k stone of some sort, plus a coarse stone for thinning and repairs and a flattening system of some sort. I use a Naniwa flattening stone, which I will eventually replace with an Atoma plate -- too many other things eating up money at the moment, like cars needing repair!

A 6k stone is perfectly adequate for kitchen knives, although I stop at a synthetic blue aoto for German stainless -- I get a better edge for those knives that way. My Japanese knives usually get run up to 8K and stropping on chromium oxide on a piece of wood. In particular my Korean cheapo made of spring steel takes a marvelous edge from that progression, and the Tojiro works out nicely too. Very sharp.

The King 6000 is a much better stone than the lower grit ones -- it's harder, wears less, and cuts fast, I've only now upgraded, I've had it for at least 15 years now. Sharpens woodworking tools all the time, pretty well.

Have fun with it -- there are ALWAYS more stones to try, they are like knives!

Peter


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## ziotore (Feb 18, 2015)

Hello. I ' m in your same situation and the same your budget . In Europe it is more difficult to buy at a good price , but not impossible. 
I decided to buy a Chosera 600 grit stone for 49 euros,Bester 1200 for 48 and 10 euro shipping cost (for you in Germany 5 euros) . Plus Rika 5000 from Japan for 65 dollars (55 euros shipping cost included) .The sum is about 160. For the moment i don't need up 5000~6000 grit.


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## krx927 (Feb 25, 2015)

I bought a set of choseras (400 / 1000 / 3000) from knivesandtools for around 150 EUR. I also bought Naniwa snow white on amazon.de. Couldn't be happier!


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## Benuser (Feb 25, 2015)

A great set, congratulations!


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## Keith Sinclair (Mar 4, 2015)

You like wide stones the Bester 1200 is a very good stone for the money. The Shapton pro's are S&G a bit harder, dish slower. You don't have to soak them at all just run some water on it. You can use a spray bottle of water while sharpening to mist the stones.

Looking at those European sites you have some good choices.


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## chinacats (Mar 4, 2015)

You can skip the 8k...the 6k will be a nice finisher.


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## Karnstein (Jun 2, 2015)

Okay, folks going to bump that thread again...

Been quite a while since my last posting... managed to rack up some hours at a second part time job (playing bar keeper/waiter at a new small Italian restaurant in my part of town...), earned some money and finalized my knife stock plans for the new future. Going to buy the last knife for quite a while later this month, while trying to get rid of all the inexpensive knifes I started with except for some kind of small paring knife. So now is good time to start working on upgrading my stones 

So at the end of the month my collection will looks like this and I don't expect it to grow for the remainder of the year:

*Stainless:* 150 Ashi Ginga Wa-Petty, 210 Ashi Ginga Wa Petty, 240 JCK Fu-Ri-Ka-Zen Wa-Sujihiki (60-61 HRC)...all some kind of Swedish Stainless steel hardened to either 58-59 or 60-61 HRC.

*Carbon:* 180 V2 Itonomonn Kasumi Nakiri, 210 Kohetsu AS Gyuto, 270 W#2 Konosuke Wa-Kiritsuke/K-tip Gyuto... 

The Kohetsu is on its way for a thinning job to a German knife maker, may or may not make the cut in the long run... so I'm either having a 3:3 parity between stainless and carbon, or a slight 3:2 advantage... 

I'm going to order a JNS 1200 Matukusuyama from Maxim along with the Nakiri and I have a offer from a fellow board member to buy a slightly used Chosera 400. Both choices are pretty much set in stone... The JNS isn't that more expensive than a Chosera or Shapton of similar grit, Maxim has quite a reputation here on the board and from the video of him I watched on YT it seems to work fast enough for my liking and has a very nice size and width to it. The 400 Chosera won't be needed much, only if I have to do some repair work, set a new bevel on completely dull knife or do some serious thinning...which shouldn't be needed on my "Laser"-type knifes in the near future anyway... given that I'm just a home cook (3-4 pax /4-5 days a week) rotating between all those knifes and not putting too much abuse on them (cutting on wooden boards, not whacking through ingredients in a hurry). 

So what left are the 1-2 stones above the JNS Matukusuyama... 

My thoughts so far were to add one 4-5k stone as a finisher for all the stainless knives and maybe those carbons I want a bit more bite on the edge. And then maybe one not overly expensive 8k+ stone to get the most out of the w#2 knife and maybe the nakiri (no experience so far with V2 steel). 

For the 8k I'm looking at the Imanishi Kitayama or the 8k Imanishi bester... would be around 70 for either of those (assuming that they are not the same stones), which is cheaper than a 8k shapton (~90) or a decent sized belgian coticule (135)....from what I've seen from a review of a guy on a German board and Dave Martells page, the Kitayama isn't a bad choice...but often used combined with further high grit stones (which is what Dave does according to his blog). 

For the 4-5k I'm either looking at a Suehiro Rika or a 4k Bester... Rika would be a tad cheaper than a Bester if I go with non-traceable SAL shipping from Japan (45 vs 55), with EMS and German import fees it would be slightly more expensive than a 4k Bester (62 vs 55). The Bester could be bought along with the Kitayama or a 8k Bester from a German vendor...which would result in less delivery time, no possible hike to the local customs office, and most likely having better customer service in case something goes wrong... 

So for me it comes down to three questions

a) is there much of a difference in quality between the 4k bester and the 5k rika to either pay the extra costs for traceable and ensured shipping from japan or go for the risk of a untraceable shipping, that may take weeks until it arrives at my home. 
b) does my small collection of carbon knives merit adding a dedicated finishing stone for those and if so would a Kitayama or 8k bester be a bad choice given it's very competitive price... 
c) are there any stones or possible combination with that 1200 JNS I overlooked (like say jumping directly from the 1200 to some kind of 6k stone)?


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## daveb (Jun 2, 2015)

Have you considered the JNS 6K instead of the Suehiro or Bestor? I like the Suehiro 5K, esp the way it gives a mirror polish on stainless, but would go for the JNS 6K in your place. The convenience of just adding it to your order from Maxsim has got to be worth any price difference.

With either the JNS 6K or the Suehiro 5K, I don't think you would need a higher grit stone (not the kitayama or bestor 8K) unless/until you add a Yanagiba to your knife collection and even then neither of those stones would be on my list. If you wanted something higher for that "wow" polish I suggest you consider an inexpensive JNat. 

Good luck.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jun 2, 2015)

+1 on what daveb said. If you are set on getting an 8k stone to use only on gyutos and nakiris, a Takenoko 8K would be my choice instead of Kitayama 8k.


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## Karnstein (Jun 3, 2015)

daveb said:


> Have you considered the JNS 6K instead of the Suehiro or Bestor? I like the Suehiro 5K, esp the way it gives a mirror polish on stainless, but would go for the JNS 6K in your place. The convenience of just adding it to your order from Maxsim has got to be worth any price difference.
> 
> With either the JNS 6K or the Suehiro 5K, I don't think you would need a higher grit stone (not the kitayama or bestor 8K) unless/until you add a Yanagiba to your knife collection and even then neither of those stones would be on my list. If you wanted something higher for that "wow" polish I suggest you consider an inexpensive JNat.
> 
> Good luck.



I briefly thought about it, hence question c) ... what turned me off was the triple digit price of the stone. But you're right...it may be worth considering. Esp. given the fact that the 2 stone combo costs noticeably less than the 3 stone ones I mentioned (165 vs ~190-200).

And guess I should have better clarified my needs and intentions....

First of all I don't intend to dabble with single-bevel knifes of any kind, period. I don't do enough Sushi or Sashimi or work whole fish to turn a Deba or Yanagiba into more than just a cabinet showpiece and I have a policy to only collect knives I end up using more than just once or twice a year (which wouldn't be the case with any kind of single bevel knife). I also don't intend to purchase any kind of superbly handcrafted traditional 3-layer knives with iron cladding. No Shig, no Kato... no Syousin Sakura or Konosuke Fujiyama. So no knives where one may feel the need for synthetic or even JNAT stones that are able to bring back or exceed the OOTB Kasumi-finish on the blade.

So any further knife purchases that may or may not happen in the future are bound to be a) medium high hardness (59-62 HRC) and b) either monosteel or stainless-clad 3 layer constructions... regardless of the flavor of the steel used...could be a inexpensive Tanaka Ginsanko for a rehandling project or going all out and ordering a custom monosteel carbon gyuto (1.3505 aka 52100 steel) from a German bladesmith, just to have one unique personal knife... which means any stone combination that works with the knives I already own, should also work with pretty much anything I may acquire in the future. 

On top of that I'm quite pragmatic when it comes to making food. I do like to cook and I do like cutting, but I'm not on the quest for the perfect cut...If I make a simple pasta dish with asparagus, salmon and tomatoes for just two personsn that takes less than 10 minutes from heating up the oil in the pan to mixing the cooked pasta with the fish&vegetable sauce, I don't intend to spend 30 minutes on the board switching between a plethora of knives and celebrating each cut like some kind of Zen master. I also don't go around trying to split hairs with my knives or try to shave other persons while sleeping without waking them... 

So as long as a knife is sharp enough that I can prep dinner with it, incl. cutting tomatoes instead of crushing them or grabbing a serrated knife to do so, I'm perfectly fine.... if that kind of sharpness can be achieved on all those knives in my collection with a "simple" 2 stone combination and maybe some stropping on either newspaper or that chrome-oxide leather strop I already own, that's just fine with me...in which case I wouldn't mind paying 100+ Euros for the finishing stone (which would be the one used the most, like gently touching up edges). After all my sharpening skills are mediocre at this point anyway, not that I would be able to get the full potential out of a shirogami blade even with the biggest stone collection of the planet... :lol2


It's not that I need to have a 3 stone setup or a 8k stone, just that I wasn't sure if two are enough...


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jun 3, 2015)

I know what you mean, but i feel that it's more a matter of curiosity and pleasure with the tools than necessity. I still remember the feeling the first time i cut a tomato with a great knife. Don't need that to cook though, but it's fun, nonetheless.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...better-to-add-more-stones-in-your-progression


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## Karnstein (Jun 15, 2015)

Just to wrap the topic up...

I ended up with the 1k and 6k stone from Maksim. Had the Nakiri, the 1200 and 6000 JNS in my cart on Wednesday, but didn't manage to complete the check-out before I had to leave for work. On Thursday I couldn't go through with the order, due to the 6k now being out of stock. Called Maksim on the phone (very nice and friendly guy to talk to), according to him the 6k should be back in stock today (which it is). On Friday he started a sale for both the 1000 and 1200 JNS, which lead to the 1200 being out of stock today. 

And with both stones being on Sale for the price, I went for the 1k instead... bought the last one, which are now not only out of stock but also discontinued according to the JNS homepage. 

So thanks for all the help, I will do a short review about the stones at some point in the future.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jun 15, 2015)

I think you'll be pleased with the 1k Matukusuyama. I used to sharpen with the 1k Mizuyama, which is still like due to its feedback, but the Matukusuyama is harder and dishes less. Waiting for your review!


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 16, 2015)

Tools from Japan, Stu hooked me up with 5-6 shapton pro stones. Under 300 U.S. . He offers the best price I have seen for shapton pro.


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## berko (Jun 16, 2015)

> He offers the best price I have seen for shapton pro.



i think this shop has the best prices. few days ago i got two 320# for 48  (53$) shipped to germany, including taxes.


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## cave_dweller (Jun 16, 2015)

berko said:


> i think this shop has the best prices. few days ago i got two 320# for 48  (53$) shipped to germany, including taxes.



Serious question - how on earth do you good folk find stuff on Rakuten? I've spent hours at it, and only ever find stuff when it's linked directly from this site! I'm guessing that the on-site search doesn't work too well on the translated pages? (Sorry for going off topic, but global.rakuten.com is sending me nuts!)


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## Dardeau (Jun 16, 2015)

Type your query into google translate, then cut and paste the characters. This isn't near perfect but works better than searching English terms.


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