# Just Another Dam Project - Pass HHT on your kitchen knife



## captaincaed

The Hoover Dam was completed on 01 March 1936. It was a monumental effort using yet unproven techniques. The dam now provides power for much of Arizona, Nevada and Southern California.

In honor of achievement bought with persistence, get out your stones and your finest kitchen knife, and let's get to HHT sharpness together by March 1st.

I've gotten to HHT sharpness on my razor recently, and I know it should be possible even on a mid-grit benchstone, around 1-2k. I've heard @stringer and @Kippington talk about it. Recently, @Deadboxhero got some CATRA coupons to HHT with a 400 grit stone. Damn. I'm happy with my edges, but I think I can clean them up with some practice. If they can do it, so can I.

I'm pushing my self to sharpen once per day during February, with a goal of passing an HHT on March 1st. Is anyone interested in joining the challenge? Share your weekly progress, and offer tips and pitfalls you find.

There's no practical reason to do this for a kitchen knife, but I think it's a good exercise in making sure you've removed your burr completely. In practice, this should help dial in technique over a focused period, with some peer support. At the end, hopefully we'll all have a better understanding of the sharpening and deburring process.

I'm shooting for HHT-2 or HHT-3. I think more than that is unhelpful for a knife. Anyone up for a challenge? Put some energy back into this place?


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## captaincaed

Some particulars: 


HHT-0 - shave: The hair can be shaved immediately at the holding point. This is strictly spoken not a true HHT, but it does tell us that the edge is capable of shaving. [all other attempts must be made at least half an inch from the holding point]
HHT-1 - violin : The hair doesn't cut, but it "plays violin" with the edge. This is due to the shingles catching the edge, but it's not sharp enough to penetrate. On a full hollow razor, a faint ringing sound can be heard. On all razors it can be felt with the fingertips that hold the hair.
HHT-2 - split: When it is dragged across the edge, the edge catches the hair and splits it lengthwise.
HHT-3 - catch & pop: When it is dragged across the edge a bit, the edge catches the hair and pops it. The severed part will jump away.
HHT-4 - pop: The hair is popped immediately when it touches the edge. It still jumps away.
HHT-5 - silent slicer: The hair falls silently as soon as it touches the edge.

From: Hanging Hair Test - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone

And if you're wondering, yes, I struggled to come up with a good March 1st event to go with the challenge.


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## DavidPF

I wonder whether an HHT-5 knife might cleanly slice a shell-on hard boiled egg 
(But it would be just as impractical, because what could you even do with shell-on egg slices if you had them)


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## captaincaed

OK for personal accountability, here's my Day 1. Lots of room to improve, just how I like it.

I meant "subtle convex" not "subtle micro bevel"


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## captaincaed

DavidPF said:


> I wonder whether an HHT-5 knife might cleanly slice a shell-on hard boiled egg
> (But it would be just as impractical, because what could you even do with shell-on egg slices if you had them)


I think you need an actual light saber for that trick. Shell on Obi Wan.


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## KingShapton

An interesting challenge. I'm watching the progress but I've just started too many projects to participate.


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## Carl Kotte

Hanging huevo test?


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## DavidPF

Carl Kotte said:


> Hanging huevo test?


Some things are better left as they are.


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## luuogle

Seems like an interesting concept to test edge sharpness by cutting a piece of hanging hair.


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## DavidPF

luuogle said:


> Seems like an interesting concept to test edge sharpness by cutting a piece of hanging hair.


It's something almost everyone can find, and is fairly uniform - but I do think that on average a hair from me was stronger a long time ago than it is now.


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## captaincaed

luuogle said:


> Seems like an interesting concept to test edge sharpness by cutting a piece of hanging hair.


My read on this so far is you can pop hair on a medium edge if it's very clean. If you continue to sharpen you lose that ability for a while. When you get up near 10-12k and a very clean polish, it comes back and then some. 

Just an experiment!


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## Kawa

Although I like the challenge, and it is surely a goal to be able to achieve the HHT for the longer term, but

What makes you think you can get as good as a Kippington in a month time, just by being persistent?
If you can get this good in 30 days time, you are already nearly as good as the top sharpeners.

If you are new, low skilled, medium skilled or even fairly high skilled, you will not get there in a month time, just by wanting it and trying to sharpen better.
If it was that easy, we wouldnt be looking up to those Kippington kind of level sharpeners/knifemakers.



So, you made a challenge for those almost God-tier sharpeners, who were always to lazy to get the max out of themselves


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## MarcelNL

Kawa said:


> Although I like the challenge, and it is surely a goal to be able to achieve the HHT for the longer term, but
> 
> What makes you think you can get as good as a Kippington in a month time, just by being persistent?
> If you can get this good in 30 days time, you are already nearly as good as the top sharpeners.
> 
> If you are new, low skilled, medium skilled or even fairly high skilled, you will not get there in a month time, just by wanting it and trying to sharpen better.
> If it was that easy, we wouldnt be looking up to those Kippington kind of level sharpeners/knifemakers.
> 
> 
> 
> *So, you made a challenge for those almost God-tier sharpeners, who were always to lazy to get the max out of themselves *


phew, that gets me excused, not having enough/long enough hair to attempt this is another reason to pass


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## stereo.pete

I'm not going to be able to commit to sharpening every day, but I'll definitely get in as much as I can in the month of February. I've just recently gotten back into sharpening and I am practicing as much as I can to regain my lost skills and hopefully exceed where I was at before. I still can't get a shaving sharp edge, but I'm focusing on one stone (Shapton Pro 1k) and working on consistency and slowly getting better. I won't even pretend to get to anything on the above scale, I'm just looking for good quality consistent edges. I just had a minor break through, and that was staying at the 1k level, and not stropping / transitioning to higher grit stones. Every time I did that I noticed my edges would be dull and no where near as sharp using Carter's three finger method so clearly my muscle memory isn't there yet.


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## DavidPF

Kawa said:


> a challenge for those almost God-tier sharpeners, who were always to lazy to get the max out of themselves


It does sound like a select little group.  (I mean, it's hard to be both that good at it and also lazy.) 

Some may say it's just determination and persistence, but that's not true. The determination and persistence only pay off when they're combined with being observant, understanding the materials, understanding how the process works, having the physical skills needed, and being always willing to learn and to admit mistakes when they happen. Some pretty good sharpeners deny that so many things are important, but that's because they've never known what it's like to not have one of them. They may say something like "Sharpening is simple, I don't pay attention to all that stuff, I just go by feel", forgetting that the fact they have any "feel" to go by proves they're using a specific physical skill, and so on. It's only simple if you already know how, and if it's always been simple for you then you started out already having particular skills that other people will have to spend time learning. It definitely doesn't automatically happen with just persistence.

Perfect makes practice.


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## stringer

I will play. I have some knives that need work anyways.


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## Kawa

MarcelNL said:


> phew, that gets me excused, not having enough/long enough hair to attempt this is another reason to pass



Dont forget that hair where the sun doesnt shine.
Untangle them and be surprised how long they are!


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## choochoochop

I'm curious what type of progression you guys use, if any, to achieve these kind of edges.


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## KingShapton

I would also be very interested in the progression of the individual participants.


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## captaincaed

I hear a lot of excuses out there. I have no idea if I can get there or not in a month, but it's something to focus the mind. 

So, come give it a try. Sharpen 15-30" per day for one month. See how far you can go. Group support to improve. Throw up an initial video, then post progress. You'll be surprised what you can do.


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## DavidPF

captaincaed said:


> 15-30" per day


This would really add up after a while - in a week you could have as much as 3½ minutes!


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## ian

I think he means inches. Ie, remove between 15 and 30 inches of height from your knife each day. With that much practice the goal does seem achievable even for the novice sharpener.


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## Chuckles

I will try this. There is a good chance tho that I end up not practicing at all and just go for it on March 1st. Couple thoughts:

-For this test removing the burr isn’t really that important.
-Loaded strops make this test way easier. I will try and pass without them.
-I am far more confident in the sharpening than my ability to capture the HHT on video
-I should probably by a new knife for this challenge.


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## ian

Yea, I need a beater or something. All my knives are in current use and I don’t want to lose a lot of steel trying to create HHT passing edges.

Hmmm, or maybe I could try with this Heiji ss I have lying around. That could be fun.

Should we make the challenge to first split a spaghetti squash and then immediately pass HHT5?


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## DavidPF

ian said:


> I think he means inches. Ie, remove between 15 and 30 inches of height from your knife each day. With that much practice the goal does seem achievable even for the novice sharpener.


But if I did that, I'd very soon have to buy a ...

Oh. Hmmm. Maybe it IS a good idea.


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## DavidPF

ian said:


> Should we make the challenge to first split a spaghetti squash and then immediately pass HHT5?


Not everyone can easily obtain a spaghetti squash, but nearly everyone can get a hard boiled egg. Just saying.


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## LewRob80

Sounds like a good little lockdown challenge as well! I’m in


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## M1k3

ian said:


> Should we make the challenge to first split a spaghetti squash and then immediately pass HHT5?


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## captaincaed

Chuckles said:


> I am far more confident in the sharpening than my ability to capture the HHT on video
> -I should probably by a new knife for this challenge.


I agree on both of these. 

I got me a 1micron strop ready and waiting. And braaaand new Yoshi. 

...

And poor camera skills


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## ian

Chuckles said:


> I am far more confident in the sharpening than my ability to capture the HHT on video



No joke. I completely failed, despite multiple attempts, so you'll just have to trust me that it worked. It wasn't as consistent as in Kipp's video, but that's not a surprise. I also cheated and used a 16k stone.

You know, though, I kind of think I could have done just as well on this challenge 6 months ago as now, even though I think I'm a much better sharpener than I was then. I feel like most of the skills I've acquired are irrelevant to this test. But whatever. I still have a lot to learn. I'm not sure I see the point of striving to get this kind of edge off of a mid grit stone, but there's also no point in making the videos below, so who gives a f.

Anyway, here's me treetopping arm hairs, and cutting pt and a single ply of tp, for some reason.





Maybe we also need to document our journey in learning to film HHTs.

Anyway, I think the most interesting content in the thread will be the stories of everyone’s progress sharpening. Looking forward to reading some. Maybe eventually I’ll see if I can do a HHT vid without cheating with a 16k.


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## captaincaed

Here's day 2, stopping at 2k unlike the filthy cheater Ian. Love you. P.s. Your **** is looking good. Hats off, really.

The new Yoshi had a silly edge out of the box. Wrecked it cutting onions, on an end grain board. That's a first for me. Ever.

Better paper towel today.


Boring process vid coming later.

I had best luck minimizing the burr leading into the stone, "kissing" the apex. More like a friend zone peck honestly. Just enough that the “Nick Nick” sound smooths out and goes away when doing the strokes.
I didn’t really improve things with the Ark or the strop today. Tomorrow is another day.


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## captaincaed

First day of partial success, makes me believe it's a climbable mountain.

2k edge, nothing after

I went over yesterday's edge a bit more, just "friend zone kissing" the apex until it sounded as clean as I could make it.
I'm using hair from my shave brush. My own hair is very fine, do it doesn't really go. Doesn't cut along the whole length yet of the edge yet, but it's a start.

The real hero of this story is Yoshikane's steel. Can't do this with Cutco.


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## ian

Nice. You make great vid.


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## tostadas

Does the source of hair make a difference?


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## cotedupy

I'm really liking this! Great experiment, and looks like you're pretty handy already 

I've no idea how my edges compare at this kind of mega-high level, but I shouldn't have thought even close. I may have to try later, though I shan't post any videos of my terrible failure I'm afraid.


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## Kippington

captaincaed said:


>



Oh jeez, I made that video 9 years ago. Now I feel old...
I should make a new clip with one of my own knives.



I find this pretty easy to achieve. Should I give some advice? Or would that be against the spirit of the competition...


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## Kentos

tostadas said:


> Does the source of hair make a difference?



Yes it does. Some hair is very good for the test, some won’t work at all. This is why for razors the HHT doesn’t work as a universal test for sharpness. It would only work if everyone had the same source for hair.


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## captaincaed

tostadas said:


> Does the source of hair make a difference?


Coarse hair seems to be a lot easier than fine for me. Getting it warm and wet helps, just like shaving. Holding the tip is easier than holding the root. Check out a microscope image of a hair and you'll see why.


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## captaincaed

Kippington said:


> Oh jeez, I made that video 9 years ago. Now I feel old...
> I should make a new clip with one of my own knives.
> 
> 
> 
> I find this pretty easy to achieve. Should I give some advice? Or would that be against the spirit of the competition...



Hey I'm all ears. It's not about beating my head against the wall just for the sake of it. That's what the 4:30am workouts in the PNW rain are for...

I'm sure even knowing the trick it'll take some practice.


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## tostadas

Kentos said:


> Yes it does. Some hair is very good for the test, some won’t work at all. This is why for razors the HHT doesn’t work as a universal test for sharpness. It would only work if everyone had the same source for hair.





captaincaed said:


> Coarse hair seems to be a lot easier than fine for me. Getting it warm and wet helps, just like shaving. Holding the tip is easier than holding the root. Check out a microscope image of a hair and you'll see why.



I need to source some of this hair that you guys use.


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## captaincaed

tostadas said:


> I need to source some of this hair that you guys use.


I used the badger from my brush. Plenty of it.


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## Kippington

captaincaed said:


> Hey I'm all ears. It's not about beating my head against the wall just for the sake of it. That's what the 4:30am workouts in the PNW rain are for...


You know the three finger sharpness test? A knife that passes the HHT test will feel blunt because it's too fine for your skin to feel.

Early on the stones, sharpen the knife too shallow (too acute an edge). I'm guessing like 10 degrees each side or something. Every time you move up to a finer grit or strop, increase the angle slightly so you end up at a reasonable angle along the edge.



Kippington said:


>




To get this edge (52100 steel), I used a 4000 grit Shapton Glass stone and a paper strop with hard backing, loaded with a 0.1 micron grit Cubic Boron Nitride compund.
Generally speaking. steels with less large carbides will be easier to sharpen for a HHT.


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## captaincaed

Kippington said:


> You know the three finger sharpness test? A knife that passes the HHT test will feel blunt because it's too fine for your skin to feel.
> 
> Early on the stones, sharpen the knife too shallow (too acute an edge). I'm guessing like 10 degrees each side or something. Every time you move up to a finer grit or strop, increase the angle slightly so you end up at a reasonable angle along the edge.
> 
> 
> 
> To get this edge (52100 steel), I used a 4000 grit Shapton Glass stone and a paper strop with hard backing, loaded with a 0.1 micron grit Cubic Boron Nitride compund.
> Steels with less large carbides will be easier to sharpen for a HHT.


That's a great tip thank you. Also for what feedback to expect from the edge. 

So you're essentially thinning on low grits, at a shallow angle. As your grit increases, so does your angle. You're hitting the apex at 4k, then stropping with very fine compound on hard backed paper?

I've shifted a bit back toward finer gained steels for this reason. More edges are possible.


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## Kippington

captaincaed said:


> So you're essentially thinning on low grits, at a shallow angle. As your grit increases, so does your angle. You're hitting the apex at 4k, then stropping with very fine compound on hard backed paper?


Yep. You gotta hit the apex every time you change grit. If you do that with your normal angle from the start, the final angle at the end will be quite a bit more obtuse than you had planned.
I guess you could keep the same angle the whole time, but it takes way too long by hand. Using my method, I had this knife pass the HHT after like 5 minutes.


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## captaincaed

I have a project for tomorrow. Only have 1micron spray though...

I'm also curious to see Stringers HHT straight off the 2k. It's an alluring idea


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## Kippington

captaincaed said:


> Only have 1micron spray though...


For some reason at home I have 45 micron Kemet diamond compound in a syringe. That's like 320 grit.
It's... crunchy.


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## captaincaed

Eeeewwwwww


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## cotedupy

Well isn't this an interesting test eh!

I tried this afternoon on a knife I had to sharpen and send to an old friend. A relatively inexpensive, but not too bad A2 Tosa. A few mins of my normal technique on a 1k/3k Suehiro Combi, and then stropped on phone book paper as I always do...

I wasn't cutting through a hair, but it was splitting/shaving them. Which I see is at least on the scale, so I must be doing something right  I reckon with some practice on one of my better knives and finer stones I might get there. (And if I do I shall try to take a victory video, but i doubt my phone is up to it).

p.s. - I do sharpen these knives quite a lot, and know their grinds quite well. It wasn't just a complete bit of junk.


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## Kawa

I've apologized to the wife in advance. 
'whatfor'
'For the neglection the next few weeks. I need to sharpen more. I ain't there yet.'

Yes, this topic is feeding me so much.


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## stringer

captaincaed said:


> The real hero of this story is Yoshikane's steel. Can't do this with Cutco.




Actually you can. Like @Chuckles said earlier, there are some things that are a little counter intuitive about this task. In a lot of ways doing this to some soft cheap stainless is easier than on some 75HRC beast that is going to be a lot less forgiving.

I remember one time I was goofing around during a slow period in the banquets department. I brought a bunch of stones to work and decided to sharpen my whole kit with a full progression. I don't remember exactly, but probably something like SP1k SG2k-4k-8k SP12k. 

Of course my Watanabe, Gingas, Shi.han etc got very sharp. Soon I had no arm hair left. But I was also sharpening a couple of these:



https://uedata.amazon.com/Montana-Knife-Works-10-Chef/dp/B00LBOETPG/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_i



They aren't available any more which makes me sad. I probably bought 100 of them over the last five years. An absolutely terrible knife but completely serviceable. The hotel didn't provide knives and my cooks lived on tight budgets so I would buy tons of these things from Amazon and sell them to them for cost ($11) as they needed them. The knife grinder guys tried to sell the exact same knives for $40 and then ground them to dust and sparks every other month. So I just cut out the middle man.

Anyways, I go to do a three finger test on one of these after the 12k and sliced three fingers. Went to do HHT and the hair jumped apart before you could even see it touch the blade. I scratched my head and did another one, same thing. My more expensive blades had similar results but not nearly as just stupidly impressive. 

Then I tried to use one on a board. The last 0.5 mm of the edge felt amazing for one slice then crumpled like aluminum foil. 

A soft foil edge is terrible for cooking with but it could actually be pretty good for HHT. You will just have to rebevel the knife if you want to use it on food again.


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## captaincaed

I wrote that little throwaway comment and immediately thought "a professional cook is going to correct me - I'm leaving this in because it's going to be fun"

I see what you're talking about with the soft steel and the foil edge. I've done something similar with a relative's knife, but at the time I was scratching my head a bit. 

So there's plenty of evidence about a highly polished edge passing the HHT, but I'm still interested in the mid-grit sweet spot that's been alluded to. One where you stop on the 1-3k stone and still split/pop hairs. 

Also it is too bad those knives are gone. My old cheap favorite was the Winco white handled thing.


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## Luftmensch

captaincaed said:


> I'm pushing my self to sharpen once per day during February, with a goal of passing an HHT on March 1st.



Are you hoping to see people cut a hanging hair by any means - loaded strops... 16K stones? Or....



captaincaed said:


> I've gotten to HHT sharpness on my razor recently, and I know it should be possible even on a mid-grit benchstone, around 1-2k. I've heard @stringer and @Kippington talk about it. Recently, @Deadboxhero got some CATRA coupons to HHT with a 400 grit stone.



I find this more interesting. Like you I hone razors and cutting a hanging hair is par for the course. I don't see why that would not be possible on kitchen knives when applying the same care and grit progression.



captaincaed said:


> So there's plenty of evidence about a highly polished edge passing the HHT, but I'm still interested in the mid-grit sweet spot that's been alluded to. One where you stop on the 1-3k stone and still split/pop hairs.



Definitely. That would impress me! Is unloaded stropping allowed? Or straight off the stone?



What is your target? HHT by any means or HHT straight off a low/mid-grit?


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## cotedupy

Luftmensch said:


> Are you hoping to see people cut a hanging hair by any means - loaded strops... 16K stones? Or....
> 
> 
> 
> I find this more interesting. Like you I hone razors and cutting a hanging hair is par for the course. I don't see why that would not be possible on kitchen knives when applying the same care and grit progression.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely. That would impress me! Is unloaded stropping allowed? Or straight off the stone?
> 
> 
> 
> What is your target? HHT by any means or HHT straight off a low/mid-grit?



I'm going to keep trying on 1k and 3k I think, with stropping on a phone book. It's how I do most of my normal sharpening, so would be fun to see if I can get that _really_ good...


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## jwthaparc

Seems like a fun challenge. I'll post a video of my attempt tonight. Carbon steel is the way to go here. Does it matter what grit I finish on?


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## jwthaparc

Well I figured out a couple things tonight. One is that the hht is very hard on superfine blonde hair like mine. I was able to shave with the knife, but it was rare for it to catch on the hanging hair. I will try again directly after showering in the morning and shampooing. (You aren't supposed to shampoo every day, it depletes the natural oil from your hair) I have a feeling it may go better after that.


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## Kentos

jwthaparc said:


> Well I figured out a couple things tonight. One is that the hht is very hard on superfine blonde hair like mine. I was able to shave with the knife, but it was rare for it to catch on the hanging hair. I will try again directly after showering in the morning and shampooing. (You aren't supposed to shampoo every day, it depletes the natural oil from your hair) I have a feeling it may go better after that.



Are you holding the hair root end out?


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## jwthaparc

Kentos said:


> Are you holding the hair root end out?


I'm not sure. I have a ton of hair, so I just run my fingers through my hair until I get a loose one. So I'm not positive which end is which.


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## Luftmensch

jwthaparc said:


> One is that the hht is very hard on superfine blonde hair like mine.



Unfortunately for blondies, I believe lighter coloured hair tends to be finer than dark hair on average.




tostadas said:


> Does the source of hair make a difference?



Definitely As @Kentos puts it:



Kentos said:


> Yes it does. Some hair is very good for the test, some won’t work at all. This is why for razors the HHT doesn’t work as a universal test for sharpness. It would only work if everyone had the same source for hair.



The hair on my head is fine to medium. It is maybe half as thick as my partners hair. Her hair is quite luscious in comparison. On the other end of the scale is cat hair which is so fine it literally floats in the air...

But then again, my body has a mix of 'sources'.... beard (very wiry and thick) > pubes  > chest > head ~= arm/legs


I can just about split my beard hair off a 1K stone.... but that is a fair way off splitting my head hair. Maybe I should see if I can get there off a 3K....





Edit: Wikipedia has section on hair variation:



> There are ethnic differences in several different hair characteristics. The differences in appearance and texture of hair are due to many factors: the position of the hair bulb relative to the hair follicle, size and shape of the dermal papilla, and the curvature of the hair follicle. The scalp hair follicle in Caucasians is elliptical in shape and, therefore, produces straight or wavy hair, whereas the scalp hair follicle of people of African descent is more curvy, resulting in the growth of tightly curled hair.
> 
> Terminal Scalp Hair Characteristics by Ethnicity
> 
> ethnicitydiameter
> (micrometers)cross-sectional shapeappearanceBlonde-haired Caucasian40–80ellipticalstraight or wavyDark brown/black haired/red haired Caucasian50–90ellipticalstraight or wavyBlack60–100elliptical and ribbon-likecurlyAsian80–100circularstraight


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## jwthaparc

Luftmensch said:


> Unfortunately for blondies, I believe lighter coloured hair tends to be finer than dark hair on average.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely As @Kentos puts it:
> 
> 
> 
> The hair on my head is fine to medium. It is maybe half as thick as my partners hair. Her hair is quite luscious in comparison. On the other end of the scale is cat hair which is so fine it literally floats in the air...
> 
> But then again, my body has a mix of 'sources'.... beard (very wiry and thick) > pubes  > chest > head ~= arm/legs
> 
> 
> I can just about split my beard hair off a 1K stone.... but that is a fair way off splitting my head hair. Maybe I should see if I can get there off a 3K....


Yeah. My hair is on the finer end of the spectrum, it almost has a frizzy appearance if left naturally, it's not curly, just wavy, but it's so light that it gives it a bit of volume if that makes sense. 

I definitely won't be testing on my pubes, but that would be the easiest for me, as I stay shaved, and am relatively babyfaced in general.


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## Luftmensch

jwthaparc said:


> I definitely won't be testing on my pubes, but that would be the easiest for me, *as I stay shaved*, and am relatively babyfaced in general.



Shaved in both departments 




jwthaparc said:


> I'm not sure. I have a ton of hair, so I just run my fingers through my hair until I get a loose one. So I'm not positive which end is which.



You can't see the follicles on the root side? I suppose it might be difficult on lighter coloured hair?

You could potentially find the root end by pulling the hair through your pinched thumb and index finger. It is more likely to vibrate (feel like it is rubbery) if you pull from tip to root. If you pull from root to tip, it is more likely to glide through your pinch and feel smooth.


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## Kentos

jwthaparc said:


> I'm not sure. I have a ton of hair, so I just run my fingers through my hair until I get a loose one. So I'm not positive which end is which.



If you run the hair through your fingers one end will usually have the root stick to it and you will feel it.
Hair is covered with scales and normal HHT tests rely on the edge catching on those scales. When it hits the scales but doesn’t catch you get the “violin”, and when it catches it pops, though I don’t know if cuts. My thoughts are that it breaks it at that point.
When I strop my razors on CBN it will cause catch/cut the hair both ways root in and out. In theory the thinner the apex the easier to catch the scales, and polishing thins the edge by virtue of leveling/removing whatever scratches are left leaving an increasingly thin apex. Of course the edge is so thin cutting paper will destroy the edge of a razor astonishing easily. I can’t imagine how long such an edge would last in a kitchen knife. Sorry to bring in useless straight razor opinions on a kitchen knife forum .


----------



## jwthaparc

Luftmensch said:


> You can't see the follicles on the root side? I suppose it might be difficult on lighter coloured hair?
> 
> You could potentially find the root end by pulling the hair through your pinched thumb and index finger. It is more likely to vibrate (feel like it is rubbery) if you pull from tip to root. If you pull from root to tip, it is more likely to glide through your pinch and feel smooth.


I will take a closer look. I didn't know it made such a difference on the test. I will see tomorrow. Friday is the day I flatten all my stones for the week (during the weekend I'm out sharpening knives for people, so I like to do it before then). Before i do that i will give it another go so i dont have to reflate all over again.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

I'll throw my hat in the ring. Out of practice since AS keeps its edge for so darn long, but here's where I'm at after a few swipes.

TF Denka Aogami Super. Edge from Suehiro 3k, suita koppa, no strop. Hair from head.


----------



## Kawa

I once read a tip for HHT.

Get a patch of hair of a source and keep it in an envelope or something.
One patch is probably enough for a lifetime and that way you always have the same hair.
Your hair will change as you get older etc.



On the other hand,
Back to pratice boys. I bet Kippington splits and pops all hairs on his knives 
No more excuses about blond hair


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

One pack of hair extensions would supply everyone on the forum for life.


----------



## captaincaed

I’m shooting for cutting hair off a 1-3k stone, without using fine-grit abrasives. 

HOWEVER! This is a choose your own adventure. If you want to get to HHT by any means necessary, go for it. If you’ve never done it before, it’s empowering to know that you can. Love to hear what progressions you find work well.

I agree with @Luftmensch that sharpening and stropping with fine abrasive is par for the course when preparing razors. I’m looking for something a little different. 

No progress for me personally yesterday! Will post another update when I do.


----------



## captaincaed

cotedupy said:


> Well isn't this an interesting test eh!
> 
> I tried this afternoon on a knife I had to sharpen and send to an old friend. A relatively inexpensive, but not too bad A2 Tosa. A few mins of my normal technique on a 1k/3k Suehiro Combi, and then stropped on phone book paper as I always do...
> 
> I wasn't cutting through a hair, but it was splitting/shaving them. Which I see is at least on the scale, so I must be doing something right  I reckon with some practice on one of my better knives and finer stones I might get there. (And if I do I shall try to take a victory video, but i doubt my phone is up to it).
> 
> p.s. - I do sharpen these knives quite a lot, and know their grinds quite well. It wasn't just a complete bit of junk.


Throw up a quick vid! Pics make everything more fun


----------



## captaincaed

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> View attachment 111868
> 
> 
> I'll throw my hat in the ring. Out of practice since AS keeps its edge for so darn long, but here's where I'm at after a few swipes.
> 
> TF Denka Aogami Super. Edge from Suehiro 3k, suita koppa, no strop. Hair from head.


Nice! Can you get there without the suita....?


----------



## inferno

i want to see people shave their genitalia after "sharpening" on an atoma 140


----------



## ian

I don’t.


----------



## inferno

thats the real test imo.


----------



## Kentos

So no abrasives and mid grit finishing stone. I’ll give it a noob try.


----------



## M1k3

inferno said:


> i want to see people shave their genitalia after "sharpening" on an atoma 140


@Carl Kotte Hanging Huevo Test?


----------



## juice

Kawa said:


> neglection


File this under "words that should be used more often"


----------



## Kawa

I know, I'm a trendsetter 

Very handy when solving crossword puzzles btw!

(I assume the word doesnt exist?)


----------



## juice

Kawa said:


> (I assume the word doesnt exist?)


It's a real word, just significantly underused (i.e. basically never) and we need to change that.


----------



## Kippington

We're all at fault for its neglection.


----------



## ian

Kippington said:


> We're all at fault for its neglection.



Seriously. Let’s never neglect shun again.


----------



## M1k3

ian said:


> Seriously. Let’s never neglect shun again.


Yeah! Don't neglect @ian!


----------



## ian

M1k3 said:


> Yeah! Don't neglect @ian!



Is a neglectian someone from planet Neglect? #mychildhood


----------



## M1k3

I didn't record it, but, I got hht-1 off of King 1k with my own thin hair. I'll try my wife's hair when I get around to it.


----------



## Carl Kotte

M1k3 said:


> I didn't record it, but, I got hht-1 off of King 1k with my own thin hair. I'll try my wife's hair when I get around to it.


----------



## jwthaparc

Out of curiosity I tried the hht on my straight razor. It needs a honing, but is still fairly sharp. It's a cheap pos. George Washington "The First Mason President" Straight Razor in Orig. Box | eBay that's what I have. 

Anyway even with all that, it was still able to do the hht. I didn't hear a pop, but that was likely just because how thin my hair is, not a testament to the sharpness of this particular blade.


----------



## M1k3

Carl Kotte said:


>


I didn't have that same reaction. Laughed at my hair bouncing. Shrugged. Then cleaned up.


----------



## captaincaed

I feel like I'm cheating using badger hair, but here's progress day 5. Not soooper obvious on camera but the feel of the edge is different, improved. 

I've been stopping on the 2k all week. Next week I'll do the same all over on the 1k. I wonder if the low grit island of stability for this test is better there. Maybe the hairs can get caught between the micro teeth a bit better?


----------



## M1k3

captaincaed said:


> I feel like I'm cheating using badger hair


CHEATER!

I feel like 1k isn't easier than 2k or higher. Or maybe I'm just not getting as crisp edges on the King? It feels sharp but not crisp enough


----------



## Luftmensch

We haven't had anyone pop a hair off a low-mid grit stone yet?

You can add me to the list of 'cheaters' though. I tried to cheat as little as possible. I thought I would increase my odds by using a 'wide' bevel. I lowered the angle of my Ginga (AEB-L) to about 10 degrees. It is ugly and wider than I'd like now.

Steps:

Thinned/lowered angle on a Chosera 400
Chosera 1K
Chosera 3K
Snow white 8K
Stropped on felt (No compounds)
Stropped on leather (No compounds)
It could shave arm hair by 1K, albeit a bit rough. I suppose the rest is edge refinement. The end result is hair popping with a nice 'ping'.






I _might_ be able to do it off 3K with careful unloaded felt/leather stropping. Doubt I'll get there _without_ stropping. Not sure I want to chase that either!!


----------



## captaincaed

M1k3 said:


> CHEATER!
> 
> I feel like 1k isn't easier than 2k or higher. Or maybe I'm just not getting as crisp edges on the King? It feels sharp but not crisp enough


Yeah that crisp feeling is what I'm really chasing. I figured if I learned how to get to that HHT reliably, then I could get to crispy edge more reliably as well. 



Luftmensch said:


> Not sure I want to chase that either!!



Oh come on you really do! OK, first 3k with stops, then take off the training wheels. Badger hair is acceptable


----------



## Luftmensch

captaincaed said:


> Oh come on you really do! OK, first 3k with stops, then take off the training wheels. Badger hair is acceptable


----------



## captaincaed

Aaaand that edge failed tonight. Apparently it wasn't a sturdy edge. Back to the drawing board.

Learning is fun, but failing publicly is less fun.

To quote Thomas Edison, I'm discovering 990 ways not to sharpen a knife


----------



## Luftmensch

captaincaed said:


> Aaaand that edge failed tonight. Apparently it wasn't a sturdy edge. Back to the drawing board.
> 
> Learning is fun, but failing publicly is less fun.



Doh! What do you mean? Chipping on the board?

I am going to use my Ginga to cook dinner tonight. I am a little apprehensive. I thinned it out so that it would stand a better shot at passing HHT. This is probably unnecessary if you are a boss-level sharpener. Anyway... the end result is a knife sharper than I generally use in the kitchen *and* a thinner edge than i'd like. 

Suffice to say... board-banging it won't be on the menu!!


----------



## big_adventure

captaincaed said:


> Aaaand that edge failed tonight. Apparently it wasn't a sturdy edge. Back to the drawing board.
> 
> Learning is fun, but failing publicly is less fun.
> 
> To quote Thomas Edison, I'm discovering 990 ways not to sharpen a knife



Or, in case any youngsters are reading:

Your knife has 99 problems but a lasting edge ain't one.

I kid of course: I tested my two "sharpest" knives on HHT, both of which effortlessly shave hair from skin: one I sharpened can get 2, another is somewhere between 3 and 4 - but I can take no credit for that, it came from the maker that way and even hours of prep with it doesn't seem to want to dull it. What witchcraft???? Ah well, it's good to be humbled by your tools now and again.


----------



## Kawa

Luftmensch said:


> Doh! What do you mean? Chipping on the board?
> 
> I am going to use my Ginga to cook dinner tonight. I am a little apprehensive. I thinned it out so that it would stand a better shot at passing HHT. This is probably unnecessary if you are a boss-level sharpener. Anyway... the end result is a knife sharper than I generally use in the kitchen *and* a thinner edge than i'd like.
> 
> Suffice to say... board-banging it won't be on the menu!!



Curious how the edge holds. Please tell us.

Maybe it still holds and you have found a way to get your knife sharpen and still usable?


----------



## Kawa

Note to myself:

_You are among people who actually worn complete stones, and not just the 200 gritt soft ones,
some even multiple times,
while using and rotating through multiple 'same but different' stones,

You are among people who think splitting a hair after 16k is cheating,
who excuse themselves if they only treetop hair after thinning a knife too much,
and encourage themselves to play Beethoven' 7th at only 1k or 2k gritt.

It's hard to put into perspective where you stand at sharpening knives.
Your friends say you do good,
the family is impressed.
Even I was pretty satisfied myself lately,

Last year i found out
I climbed to the top of my ladder,
step by step
only to find out it was a housewives kitchenladder,
Not the one the window washer uses to go where mom can't reach.

Those guys are truly at a total different level

So, Dennis. What are you goint to do today? Paint and decorite the babies room??? 
Or back to grinding on the stones??

---

Sorry, Honey. Ill finish the room tomorrow, or the day after that._




Cheers guys, great topic


----------



## Luftmensch

Kawa said:


> Curious how the edge holds. Please tell us.
> 
> Maybe it still holds and you have found a way to get your knife sharpen and still usable?



Had burritos for dinner - a lot of dicing involved 

First up let me just say... preparing one meal for two people is hardly endurance testing. If you want to be generous, you could count it as two or three meals - the ingredients should last another night or two. Also consider:

I believe the stainless Ginga is AEB-L which is supposed to be a reasonably tough steel. 
I use an Asahi cutting board which is a fairly forgiving cutting surface. 
Main prep involved:

Dicing 2 onions. 
Pretty standard oño prep. Most similar to @stringers vertical method. I keep the root on so that it holds the pieces together.

Mincing 4 cloves of garlic.
Start by thinly slicing. Near identical to @stringer's garlic video. I cut slices from the top to the bottom of the cloves (perpendicular to @stringer). The slices are the width of the clove. Then power mince. I only use a single action chop (heel up & down) - and of course... @stringer is more awesome!

Preparing 4 capsicums. 
Pretty similar to @stringer's second technique in this video (barrel roll). The main difference is that when I dice the capsicum, I dont slide/guillotine back and forth on the front 1/4 of the blade. Instead I do push chops - probably more forgiving on the front 1/4 but worse for the last 3/4 of the blade

Preparing tomatoes. 
We had cherry tomatoes.... so i used cherry tomatoes (250g). I sliced them into eighths (rather slow and fiddly) and then rock chopped that mass into a rough dice

Shredding some lettuce
Not much interesting to say. Chop, chop...

My quick thoughts are:

Lets start with the obvious. There was no discernible advantage during food prep. Nor did I really expect there to be. But we are doing this for sport; right? I didn't feel the knife cut any better than my normal routine which stops at 3K. Perhaps there might be some advantage to super precise work with protein? With vegetables? I dont think there is. Any gains in sharpness moving from a 3K edge to HHT are negligible in comparison to everything else that is going on (at least in my case). For instance, when cutting a nice juicy onion in half, the Ginga is prone to stiction. That 'drag' is going to drown out any perceptible increase in sharpness - and it did. 
My main concern was how fragile the edge might be. I was initially careful when cutting but then relaxed to normal. The only thing I would note is that the edge grabbed the board more than usual. I would say this put the edge at slightly more risk to failing under torsional or shear forces when in contact with the board. I have tried to eliminate this in my technique - I attempt to keep all the cutting forces co-planar with the edge. Prep involved a fair amount of responsible and controlled board-banging. No visible damage. I am impressed!
Sharpness... I suppose this is the main one eh?? I thought it would remain 'sharp' but lose HHT. I have never done this so I was surprised to find the knife can still pop hairs! But I would say it is doing it less reliably. Some dont 'pop' quite as well. They split instead - HHT2. In some regions the hair violins instead (although this is HHT1... I dont consider it to be a worthwhile category - cut or nothing right?). All areas seem to shave as nicely as I would expect from a kitchen knife.
I guess I learned:

Acute angles can withstand responsible use
Very sharp edges aren't necessarily taken back to 'normal' after one meal


----------



## Luftmensch

Kawa said:


> I climbed to the top of my ladder,



I bet your ladder is pretty tall


----------



## big_adventure

Luftmensch said:


> Had burritos for dinner - a lot of dicing involved
> 
> First up let me just say... preparing one meal for two people is hardly endurance testing. If you want to be generous, you could count it as two or three meals - the ingredients should last another night or two. Also consider:
> 
> I believe the stainless Ginga is AEB-L which is supposed to be a reasonably tough steel.
> I use an Asahi cutting board which is a fairly forgiving cutting surface.
> Main prep involved:
> 
> Dicing 2 onions.
> Pretty standard oño prep. Most similar to @stringers vertical method. I keep the root on so that it holds the pieces together.
> 
> Mincing 4 cloves of garlic.
> Start by thinly slicing. Near identical to @stringer's garlic video. I cut slices from the top to the bottom of the cloves (perpendicular to @stringer). The slices are the width of the clove. Then power mince. I only use a single action chop (heel up & down) - and of course... @stringer is more awesome!
> 
> Preparing 4 capsicums.
> Pretty similar to @stringer's second technique in this video (barrel roll). The main difference is that when I dice the capsicum, I dont slide/guillotine back and forth on the front 1/4 of the blade. Instead I do push chops - probably more forgiving on the front 1/4 but worse for the last 3/4 of the blade
> 
> Preparing tomatoes.
> We had cherry tomatoes.... so i used cherry tomatoes (250g). I sliced them into eighths (rather slow and fiddly) and then rock chopped that mass into a rough dice
> 
> Shredding some lettuce
> Not much interesting to say. Chop, chop...
> 
> My quick thoughts are:
> 
> Lets start with the obvious. There was no discernible advantage during food prep. Nor did I really expect there to be. But we are doing this for sport; right? I didn't feel the knife cut any better than my normal routine which stops at 3K. Perhaps there might be some advantage to super precise work with protein? With vegetables? I dont think there is. Any gains in sharpness moving from a 3K edge to HHT are negligible in comparison to everything else that is going on (at least in my case). For instance, when cutting a nice juicy onion in half, the Ginga is prone to stiction. That 'drag' is going to drown out any perceptible increase in sharpness - and it did.
> My main concern was how fragile the edge might be. I was initially careful when cutting but then relaxed to normal. The only thing I would note is that the edge grabbed the board more than usual. I would say this put the edge at slightly more risk to failing under torsional or shear forces when in contact with the board. I have tried to eliminate this in my technique - I attempt to keep all the cutting forces co-planar with the edge. Prep involved a fair amount of responsible and controlled board-banging. No visible damage. I am impressed!
> Sharpness... I suppose this is the main one eh?? I thought it would remain 'sharp' but lose HHT. I have never done this so I was surprised to find the knife can still pop hairs! But I would say it is doing it less reliably. Some dont 'pop' quite as well. They split instead - HHT2. In some regions the hair violins instead (although this is HHT1... I dont consider it to be a worthwhile category - cut or nothing right?). All areas seem to shave as nicely as I would expect from a kitchen knife.
> I guess I learned:
> 
> Acute angles can withstand responsible use
> Very sharp edges aren't necessarily taken back to 'normal' after one meal



Beautiful write-up.


----------



## ian

Kawa said:


> Note to myself:
> 
> _You are among people who actually worn complete stones, and not just the 200 gritt soft ones,
> some even multiple times,
> while using and rotating through multiple 'same but different' stones,
> 
> You are among people who think splitting a hair after 16k is cheating,
> who excuse themselves if they only treetop hair after thinning a knife too much,
> and encourage themselves to play Beethoven' 7th at only 1k or 2k gritt.
> 
> It's hard to put into perspective where you stand at sharpening knives.
> Your friends say you do good,
> the family is impressed.
> Even I was pretty satisfied myself lately,
> 
> Last year i found out
> I climbed to the top of my ladder,
> step by step
> only to find out it was a housewives kitchenladder,
> Not the one the window washer uses to go where mom can't reach.
> 
> Those guys are truly at a total different level
> 
> So, Dennis. What are you goint to do today? Paint and decorite the babies room???
> Or back to grinding on the stones??
> 
> ---
> 
> Sorry, Honey. Ill finish the room tomorrow, or the day after that._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers guys, great topic



Well that was eloquent! Personally I’m not sure that passing a HHT indicates much about your sharpening other than what your priorities are. And anyway, sharpening’s a personal thing. If your knives get sharper and satisfy the people who use the knives, that’s all that matters. This is at least what I tell myself all the time, and how I justify charging people for my work.


----------



## stringer

I got to HHT-3 with my little nakiri off of naniwa superstone 2k. (And a couple swipes on a loaded denim strop)

I know from experience that this kind of edge on this thin nakiri is not very durable on the board. I always add a micro bevel, but it worked for this challenge just fine. 

The first video I tested on badger hair



Then I snipped some beard hairs. My beard hair is fairly coarse. So easier than a lot of hair.


----------



## Luftmensch

big_adventure said:


> Beautiful write-up.



Thank you! Very kind  



ian said:


> Well that was eloquent!



Indeed. There isnt much poetry on KKF!


----------



## Kawa

I get knives plenty sharp for me to be satisfied. Not to be able to achieve HHT gives me a conclusion about my edges: they aren't there yet.
Sometimes I feel a have a knife sharper then before, 'a new record' if you want to give it a name. But I've never succeeded on a hanging hair. The only sound I hear is a hair laughing  Passing a HHT isnt a goal per se, but to me it feels like you need a almost perfect edge to pass this test. All other tests will settle for less. So if I start succeeding on hair, I figured, it's some kind of 'proof' I'm getting better.

If I philosophize this wrong, let me know.


----------



## captaincaed

Kawa said:


> Note to myself:
> 
> _You are among people who actually worn complete stones, and not just the 200 gritt soft ones,
> some even multiple times,
> while using and rotating through multiple 'same but different' stones,
> 
> You are among people who think splitting a hair after 16k is cheating,
> who excuse themselves if they only treetop hair after thinning a knife too much,
> and encourage themselves to play Beethoven' 7th at only 1k or 2k gritt.
> 
> It's hard to put into perspective where you stand at sharpening knives.
> Your friends say you do good,
> the family is impressed.
> Even I was pretty satisfied myself lately,
> 
> Last year i found out
> I climbed to the top of my ladder,
> step by step
> only to find out it was a housewives kitchenladder,
> Not the one the window washer uses to go where mom can't reach.
> 
> Those guys are truly at a total different level
> 
> So, Dennis. What are you goint to do today? Paint and decorite the babies room???
> Or back to grinding on the stones??
> 
> ---
> 
> Sorry, Honey. Ill finish the room tomorrow, or the day after that._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers guys, great topic


You are a huge dork, I love this.


----------



## captaincaed

stringer said:


> I got to HHT-3 with my little nakiri off of naniwa superstone 2k. (And a couple swipes on a loaded denim strop)
> 
> I know from experience that this kind of edge on this thin nakiri is not very durable on the board. I always add a micro bevel, but it worked for this challenge just fine.
> 
> The first video I tested on badger hair
> 
> 
> 
> Then I snipped some beard hairs. My beard hair is fairly coarse. So easier than a lot of hair.



I'm beginning to get that sense. Still, a fun exercise. Thanks for throwing vids up too. Seems like you have had somewhat similar returns on investment. It'll pass HHT-3, not as easily as a razor, and be pretty fragile on the board. I can't imagine using an edge like that in a production environment.


----------



## M1k3

captaincaed said:


> I'm beginning to get that sense. Still, a fun exercise. Thanks for throwing vids up too. Seems like you have had somewhat similar returns on investment. It'll pass HHT-3, not as easily as a razor, and be pretty fragile on the board. I can't imagine using an edge like that in a production environment.


Sometimes it's surprising what can and CAN NOT survive in a production environment.

Like a 10k edge isn't to high of a grit to use, depending on steel. Sharpness doesn't disappear the second it touches a poly board. It will cut crusty roasts followed by cutting cucumbers and tomatoes. I will say it's quicker/easier to refresh edges that are 6k and under though.


----------



## stringer

Kawa said:


> I get knives plenty sharp for me to be satisfied. Not to be able to achieve HHT gives me a conclusion about my edges: they aren't there yet.
> Sometimes I feel a have a knife sharper then before, 'a new record' if you want to give it a name. But I've never succeeded on a hanging hair. The only sound I hear is a hair laughing  Passing a HHT isnt a goal per se, but to me it feels like you need a almost perfect edge to pass this test. All other tests will settle for less. So if I start succeeding on hair, I figured, it's some kind of 'proof' I'm getting better.
> 
> If I philosophize this wrong, let me know.



Passing the HHT is mostly about having a very refined apex. Only a very thin apex can slip into the gap between the hair scales and make them pop. An edge like this is not very useful for food. The nakiri I sharpened is not very useful for food. I mostly use it to test new stones and it is ridiculously thin behind the edge. If I needed to actually cut food with it I would have to add a micro bevel or contact with the board will cause it to roll and chip.



captaincaed said:


> I'm beginning to get that sense. Still, a fun exercise. Thanks for throwing vids up too. Seems like you have had somewhat similar returns on investment. It'll pass HHT-3, not as easily as a razor, and be pretty fragile on the board. I can't imagine using an edge like that in a production environment.



This nakiri never gets used in a professional environment. I will try again with a less ridiculous knife when I get a chance.


----------



## ian

stringer said:


> Then I snipped some beard hairs.



Time to update your profile pic!


----------



## Kawa

Just curious,

Would anyone of you be able to achieve a HHT on, lets say, a Wusthof or Zwilling chefsknife?
I'm meening, not adjusting the edge to super thing or anything crazy.
Just to get it all in perspective: only achievable with decent and/or fine grained (carbon) steel? Or also with decent or moderate knives?


----------



## stringer

Kawa said:


> Just curious,
> 
> Would anyone of you be able to achieve a HHT on, lets say, a Wusthof or Zwilling chefsknife?
> I'm meening, not adjusting the edge to super thing or anything crazy.
> Just to get it all in perspective: only achievable with decent and/or fine grained (carbon) steel? Or also with decent or moderate knives?



I can do the same thing with any knife. But the thicker the knife is behind the edge the harder it's going to be. That's actually the determining factor for this kind of thing, not the quality or hardness of the steel. It's just that better steel makes the task of creating a refined crisp apex easier. 

A thicker behind the edge knife with a coarse grain and soft steel is much less forgiving, but it can be done. Especially if you finish with some edge trailing strokes to deliberately raise a wire edge. The wire edge would be useless on a cutting board but will pass the HHT.


----------



## M1k3

Kawa said:


> Just curious,
> 
> Would anyone of you be able to achieve a HHT on, lets say, a Wusthof or Zwilling chefsknife?
> I'm meening, not adjusting the edge to super thing or anything crazy.
> Just to get it all in perspective: only achievable with decent and/or fine grained (carbon) steel? Or also with decent or moderate knives?


Thin edge will help tons. With those steels, I wouldn't be surprised if resin bonded diamond stones would help achieve a cleaner edge


----------



## big_adventure

Kawa said:


> Just curious,
> 
> Would anyone of you be able to achieve a HHT on, lets say, a Wusthof or Zwilling chefsknife?
> I'm meening, not adjusting the edge to super thing or anything crazy.
> Just to get it all in perspective: only achievable with decent and/or fine grained (carbon) steel? Or also with decent or moderate knives?



I'm a newb at sharpening myself, and I can't as yet sharpen (with good technique, not by leaving a wire) well enough now to go HHT 5 with any blade. That said, I have a 17 year old Mundial Olivier chef's knife that I use as a beater or a high-risk cutter. After I sharpen it, it's absolutely sharp enough to shave hair off your arm easily - just as easily as my high-end blades. It just won't hold that edge for long, and it's super wedgy and heavy compared to my finer knives. The issue isn't making an edge that can cut something once, it's making one that can keep cutting it. 

I would imagine that the badasses here on the board who have forgotten more about sharpening than I know could pass an HHT with a butter knife, given the time. You just wouldn't want to try to cut food with it after, because the edge wouldn't last past half the cut. You wouldn't try to cut a watermelon with a straight razor, and that's using high-quality steel!


----------



## ian

Nice pic, @stringer


----------



## Luftmensch

stringer said:


> I snipped some beard hairs





ian said:


> Time to update your profile pic!





ian said:


> Nice pic, @stringer



You guys crack me up!


----------



## IsoJ

Kikumori and Naniwa 3k and 2 passes with unloaded leather. I have no hair so cheated and used beard.


----------



## juice

ian said:


> Nice pic, @stringer


I like your "super-pale from living in my maths dungeon" image too


----------



## ian

More like super pale from living in Boston in the winter...


----------



## jwthaparc

Just an update. I got my superfine hair to catch and pop. I finished my gyuto on my king 4000, and stropped on leather with green compound. It's what I would consider to be the upper limit of a kitchen knife edge. (Unless you are cutting fish or something)


----------



## jwthaparc

I wanted to ask. Does it have to be the hht on 1000ish grit. Or are we going for just arm hair shaving, because I just feel like that would be the better kitchen edge tbh.


----------



## Luftmensch

jwthaparc said:


> I wanted to ask. Does it have to be the hht on 1000ish grit. Or are we going for just arm hair shaving, because I just feel like that would be the better kitchen edge tbh.



I asked a similar question... I think the thread is really just a vehicle and challenge for us to strive for better technique. From @captaincaed 



captaincaed said:


> HOWEVER! This is a choose your own adventure. If you want to get to HHT by any means necessary, go for it. If you’ve never done it before, it’s empowering to know that you can. Love to hear what progressions you find work well.



That said, the lower the grit and the higher the HHT will get you the most street-cred . If you can slice hairs silently off tarmac in under 30 seconds, you will ensure your place in the vast halls of Valhalla feasting and drinking mead with Odin.


----------



## juice

ian said:


> More like super pale from living in Boston in the winter...


My narrative is way more interesting.


----------



## captaincaed

How cool would it be if every portrait in this thread was diagonal hairy faces?


----------



## M1k3

captaincaed said:


> How cool would it be if every portrait in this thread was diagonal hairy faces?


And 1 with a 5 o'clock shadow?


----------



## big_adventure

So...

Consider this an hommage to the OP and the concept and the great people commenting here. You have inspired me to get better, and to use my tools in the way I want to. 

I have a Moritaka AS Nakiri. I love the shape of the knife: for my purposes, a very flat nakiri is exactly what I want. Out of the box, the knife was quite sharp, and I got it as I was still learning about grinds, so I couldn't really judge the form that well yet.

Thing is, after two moderate prep sessions, it was already significantly duller. Brand new, it would slice cleanly through a tomato just on weight of the blade with slight movement. After an hour of use, it wouldn't cut a tomato cleanly at all.

I didn't want to mess with a relatively new, relatively expensive knife's original form - I was this way until, well, this week - so I tried to polish it on a Chosera 3k, and stropped it on leather, and it was pretty sharp again.

Two more preps (granted, one was extreme), it was again struggling. Not terribly, but it wasn't great. So this time, I redid the primary edge on the Chosera 1k, polished it on a Suehiro Debado 6k, stropped. And it was sharper than new. Shaving hair, paper curlies, etc. 

This thread started! I lightly stropped it into form, and it would violin a bit on my hair. Wouldn't cut it, but, you know, not too bad, and I don't generally cut hair in the kitchen. I was happy with that result.

After two prep sessions where it was only a guest star, however, it again seemed to lose cutting power extremely rapidly. Other knives right next to it in my kitchen: an S2/RG2 Kurasaki bunka, a ZDP K-Gyuto, even a 100 dollar vg10 "maybe" chinese beater were all perfectly sharp doing the same things, so it's not _me._ 

Anyway, I said screw it and went hard core on this blade. I always knew the blade was a bit hollow ground on the secondary bevel, so I sharpied up and went to work on the 1K. Well, it wasn't a LITTLE hollow: It took _at least_ 300 heavy strokes per side to get rid of the hollow grind and flatten the secondary. I then carefully constructed the primary at, I dunno, 22 inclusive maybe on the 1K, deburred, polished on the 1K (10-8-6-4-3-2-1 edge leading), polished (same routine) on the 3k, polished on the 6k (yes, same routine), stropped with very fine and ultra fine compounds (don't know the microns) on smooth leather.

It now is a solid HHT4 - cleanly cuts hair with a slight audible pop, and does it basically every time. It's the sharpest I've ever made something. I don't know how it will hold up when actually doing prep for cooking, and no, I didn't do this on a 2K stone only , but it feels great, and I wouldn't have even had the idea without the thread, the comments, the support, etc.


----------



## ian

captaincaed said:


> How cool would it be if every portrait in this thread was diagonal hairy faces?



You're the OP. You gotta keep the trend going.


----------



## Kippington

Kawa said:


> Last year i found out
> I climbed to the top of my ladder,
> step by step
> only to find out it was a housewives kitchenladder,
> Not the one the window washer uses to go where mom can't reach.


The trick is to ignore what other people say is important - Find what's important to you.

If someone offers your a 10 story ladder to see into the kitchen cupboard just above your head, you'd have no problem laughing at them.
Care about your own ladder.


----------



## Luftmensch

big_adventure said:


> It now is a solid HHT4 - cleanly cuts hair with a slight audible pop, and does it basically every time. It's the sharpest I've ever made something. I don't know how it will hold up when actually doing prep for cooking, and no, I didn't do this on a 2K stone only , but it feels great, and I wouldn't have even had the idea without the thread, the comments, the support, etc.



Nice one! Thats an awesome result 

Congrats!


----------



## Carl Kotte

Kippington said:


> The trick is to ignore what other people say is important - Find what's important to you.
> 
> If someone offers your a 10 story ladder to see into the kitchen cupboard just above your head, you'd have no problem laughing at them.
> Care about your own ladder.


You mean I don’t need such a Ladder for my kitchenette? Then why did I buy one?


----------



## big_adventure

Luftmensch said:


> Nice one! Thats an awesome result
> 
> Congrats!



Thank you! It felt really good - lowered the hair, it popped and cut clean, I kind of didn't believe it and repeated 3 more times. Good feeling.


----------



## big_adventure

Carl Kotte said:


> You mean I don’t need such a Ladder for my kitchenette? Then why did I buy one?



Same reason you likely own many many extra knives?


----------



## Luftmensch

Carl Kotte said:


> You mean I don’t need such a Ladder for my kitchenette? Then why did I buy one?



You know.... just because you live in the 10th level of an apartment... doesn't mean you need a 10-story step ladder to reach your kitchenette...


----------



## Carl Kotte

Now I feel bullied. I’m going to complain in the big thread of insults.


----------



## big_adventure

Carl Kotte said:


> Now I feel bullied. I’m going to complain in the big thread of insults.



It's definitely important to properly lodge your complaints there. Can you also make some voice recordings of random swearing and such? I've heard it works better.


----------



## Luftmensch

captaincaed said:


> OK, first 3k with stops, then take off the training wheels. Badger hair is acceptable



I'll raise you a 1K edge on beard hair. This is a one-stone sharpening job from 'dull' to sharp. No attention paid to aesthetics of the job:







Gihei santoku in @Larrin's favourite _stainless_ steel  : ZDP189.

This is both fair and unfair... the knife was woefully dull by the standards of this forum (note the subheadline: The Sharpest Place on Earth). Yet it would probably still be considered 'sharp' for a domestic kitchen knife. It has been 6 months or more since it was sharpened. It had microchipping and would struggle on a tomato skin but was still good enough for vegetable prep. The reason you might consider it unfair is that I have aggressively thinned out the steel behind the cutting edge over the years. This is also why it remains serviceable for vegetable prep when dull. The knife already operates at an acute angle.

I used a Chosera 1K as the only stone:

Reset the primary bevel using high pressure, working in sections at a low angle and with high pressure. Torque the edge into the stone and take note of burr formation (very tiny). Probably about 10 minutes.
Raise the angle a bit. Form a small secondary bevel using both edge leading and edge trailing strokes in continuous sweeps (as opposed to working in sections). Regular pressure. Less than 5 minutes
Clean the surface of the stone. Same angle, a few very light pressure edge leading strokes. Probably unnecessary. 
Raise the angle very high. Maybe 60 degrees. A few very, very light pressure edge trailing _strops_. Possibly less pressure then blade weight. Watch for parts of the burr coming off (very tiny).
Strop on unloaded felt
Strop on unloaded leather
At this point the edge is very sharp and has that toothy quality. It was catching beard hairs and splitting them length-ways (HHT-2). I was a bit disappointed but it was dinner time so I didn't go further.

After dinner I decided to do another few very, very light pressure, edge trailing strops on the now _dry_ 1K stone. I clean stones after each session so it was a nice fresh surface to work off. After a few swipes the edge was in the HHT-3 (70%) to HHT-4 (30%) range.

I used one lowish grit stone. On the other hand I stropped and used beard hair, not head hair (although... at least beard hair is still _my_ hair). I suppose the purists would claim this is a cheat. Maybe still no Valhalla for me


----------



## jwthaparc

Wow I just looked up how to do a proper hht, I didn't know I was supposed to wet the hair first! 

I'll give it a try with a wet hair, and see how that goes.


----------



## stringer

I've never noticed wet/dry making a difference but cutting angled toward the root works better than cutting toward the tip. You can see in my video that I struggle for a second until I turn the hair around and then it pops two or three times in a row.


----------



## jwthaparc

Tried again, I just can't get past violining, or whatever you call it on my chosera 800 or my aoto (on the coarser end of aotos)

This challenge is literally going to drive me crazy. I feel like I've tried everything. I thinned my tojiro santoku until the blade flexes if I put to much pressure on it. I've tried stropping strokes, both ways. With barely any pressure, one handed, raising my angle for the last couple with barely any pressure. I keep getting the same results. A reasonably sharp edge, it will cut paper towels, phone book paper, shave my arm. NP. But it will not pop my hair, i tried going both ways with it, wetting it, praying that this time it will pop, coming off my medium stone. 

Nope. Guess I just suck.


----------



## stringer

jwthaparc said:


> Tried again, I just can't get past violining, or whatever you call it on my chosera 800 or my aoto (on the coarser end of aotos)
> 
> This challenge is literally going to drive me crazy. I feel like I've tried everything. I thinned my tojiro santoku until the blade flexes if I put to much pressure on it. I've tried stropping strokes, both ways. With barely any pressure, one handed, raising my angle for the last couple with barely any pressure. I keep getting the same results. A reasonably sharp edge, it will cut paper towels, phone book paper, shave my arm. NP. But it will not pop my hair, i tried going both ways with it, wetting it, praying that this time it will pop, coming off my medium stone.
> 
> Nope. Guess I just suck.



Cut yourself a little slack. 800 is pretty tough lol.


----------



## ian

stringer said:


> Cut yourself a little slack. 800 is pretty tough lol.



@jwthaparc, you sure you can cut slack with that kind of edge? #sickburn #butonlykidding

Fwiw, I tried a few nights ago to get a hair popping edge on my pretty thick BTE Gesshin Uraku stainless (Aus-10) using only a 3k stone. It was amazing. Just when I thought I'd never get there, I finally didn't get there again, and went to bed.


----------



## jwthaparc

ian said:


> @jwthaparc, you sure you can cut slack with that kind of edge? #sickburn #butonlykidding
> 
> Fwiw, I tried a few nights ago to get a hair popping edge on my pretty thick BTE Gesshin Uraku stainless (Aus-10) using only a 3k stone. It was amazing. Just when I thought I'd never get there, I finally didn't get there again, and went to bed.


Yeah. That's looking like my night. I just drank some decently strong valerian root tea, and I'm going to relax, and try again sometime tomorrow.


----------



## captaincaed

ian said:


> You're the OP. You gotta keep the trend going.


I'm camera shy


----------



## captaincaed

OK humble pie today, good for learning. That hair popping edge is super weak. Might do tender cuts on a Hi Soft board, but no good for produce.

Trying again today to get a clean hair popping edge that's still durable. Last time had a super small bevel after a convex thinning, basically as small as I could manage. Today will be larger, we'll see how it performs.


----------



## captaincaed

Luftmensch said:


> I'll raise you a 1K edge on beard hair. This is a one-stone sharpening job from 'dull' to sharp. No attention paid to aesthetics of the job:
> 
> View attachment 112614
> 
> 
> Gihei santoku in @Larrin's favourite _stainless_ steel  : ZDP189.
> 
> This is both fair and unfair... the knife was woefully dull by the standards of this forum (note the subheadline: The Sharpest Place on Earth). Yet it would probably still be considered 'sharp' for a domestic kitchen knife. It has been 6 months or more since it was sharpened. It had microchipping and would struggle on a tomato skin but was still good enough for vegetable prep. The reason you might consider it unfair is that I have aggressively thinned out the steel behind the cutting edge over the years. This is also why it remains serviceable for vegetable prep when dull. The knife already operates at an acute angle.
> 
> I used a Chosera 1K as the only stone:
> 
> Reset the primary bevel using high pressure, working in sections at a low angle and with high pressure. Torque the edge into the stone and take note of burr formation (very tiny). Probably about 10 minutes.
> Raise the angle a bit. Form a small secondary bevel using both edge leading and edge trailing strokes in continuous sweeps (as opposed to working in sections). Regular pressure. Less than 5 minutes
> Clean the surface of the stone. Same angle, a few very light pressure edge leading strokes. Probably unnecessary.
> Raise the angle very high. Maybe 60 degrees. A few very, very light pressure edge trailing _strops_. Possibly less pressure then blade weight. Watch for parts of the burr coming off (very tiny).
> Strop on unloaded felt
> Strop on unloaded leather
> At this point the edge is very sharp and has that toothy quality. It was catching beard hairs and splitting them length-ways (HHT-2). I was a bit disappointed but it was dinner time so I didn't go further.
> 
> After dinner I decided to do another few very, very light pressure, edge trailing strops on the now _dry_ 1K stone. I clean stones after each session so it was a nice fresh surface to work off. After a few swipes the edge was in the HHT-3 (70%) to HHT-4 (30%) range.
> 
> I used one lowish grit stone. On the other hand I stropped and used beard hair, not head hair (although... at least beard hair is still _my_ hair). I suppose the purists would claim this is a cheat. Maybe still no Valhalla for me


Nice series of notes, and vid. Great to see people making progress


----------



## DavidPF

ian said:


> Nice pic, @stringer





juice said:


> I like your "super-pale from living in my maths dungeon" image too





ian said:


> More like super pale from living in Boston in the winter...


Perhaps the best thing about these two images is that if you scroll *very* quickly through a discussion involving them both, you realize that there's only _one_ dark-haired guy with his head tilted to the left - he just keeps switching expressions, and keeps repeatedly shaving off his beard and growing it back.


----------



## Runner_up

Fun thread, haven't gotten through all 5 pages yet. I pass go. I collect $200.


----------



## ian

Runner_up said:


> Fun thread, haven't gotten through all 5 pages yet. I pass go. I collect $200.




****, we get money for this?


----------



## Runner_up

ian said:


> ****, we get money for this?



Time to up the ante a little


----------



## jwthaparc

Runner_up said:


> Fun thread, haven't gotten through all 5 pages yet. I pass go. I collect $200.



What did you finish that on?


----------



## Runner_up

jwthaparc said:


> What did you finish that on?



I just pulled this off my rack, has probably been 2 weeks since I've used it. I use this knife at work a lot, so shapton pro 1.5k is my go to.


----------



## 4wa1l

I've managed to get my knife sharp enough to do some hair tricks using high grit stones and loaded strops but looking to improve my technique on lower grits. When it comes to sharpening and deburring only with a 1K stone my method is as follows. 

- Back and forth motions with pressure on edge trailing stroke, easing off edge leading.
- Continue until burr has formed along the whole edge. Flip and repeat.
- A few edge trailing strokes on both sides with lighter pressure to weaken burr. 
- Light edge leading strokes to remove burr.
- If there's still any burr I do a couple of very light edge trailing strokes on one side then flip and remove burr using a horizontal stroke a la @JBroida. 
- 2 strokes max either side on leather strop loaded with Cr2O3 Pressure is minimal, weight of the knife only. Any higher grit and I don't use the loaded strop but it seems to have a nice effect off the chosera 800. Just seems to add a touch more refinement without losing any of the bite if that makes sense.

I know I need to work on things like producing a smaller burr and maintaining angles but any tips regarding my process? I'm not at HHT sharpness with this method but it should be possible to do off a 1K stone right?


----------



## big_adventure

4wa1l said:


> I know I need to work on things like producing a smaller burr and maintaining angles but any tips regarding my process? I'm not at HHT sharpness with this method but it should be possible to do off a 1K stone right?



That routine looks pretty solid to me. And yeah, you can probably get there with a 1K, pretty sure @stringer showed that in one of his clips above. I haven't tried anything that daring yet - my two knives that I've brought to HHT level were both polished on a 6k followed by stropping.

To "hone" your technique, you could try finer angles or get out a loupe/strong magnifying glass and examine the edge to ensure that it's clean as can be.


----------



## Kawa

Tip: keep practising for the next 4 years.

Just kidding..
and not...

It's not that your technique needs improvement to get to HHT.
You will get better over time doing the same thing over and over.

Brings me to how this topic started:
You can't get to HHT just by trying hard for a month (februari challenge right?)
At januari 31th you were allready at the level to be able to do the trick, or you were not.
Ofcourse sharpening everyday for a month will improve your sharpening, but if it was that easy to get a really straight/steady edge in a months practise, everyone had sharp knives in their drawer, right?

There are a lot of ways to get to Rome in sharpening.
Some swear you never do edge trailing when deburring, some swear the exact opposite.
They are both right because they master what they do.

----

Doing HHT of a 1k stone is endgame level. It's beating Shao Kahn, being faster then Hamilton or Rossi in his glory days, or running through a Champions League teams defense in Messi style.


----------



## Ruso

Kawa said:


> Tip: keep practising for the next 4 years.
> 
> Just kidding..
> and not...
> 
> It's not that your technique needs improvement to get to HHT.
> You will get better over time doing the same thing over and over.
> 
> Brings me to how this topic started:
> You can't get to HHT just by trying hard for a month (februari challenge right?)
> At januari 31th you were allready at the level to be able to do the trick, or you were not.
> Ofcourse sharpening everyday for a month will improve your sharpening, but if it was that easy to get a really straight/steady edge in a months practise, everyone had sharp knives in their drawer, right?
> 
> There are a lot of ways to get to Rome in sharpening.
> Some swear you never do edge trailing when deburring, some swear the exact opposite.
> They are both right because they master what they do.
> 
> ----
> 
> Doing HHT of a 1k stone is endgame level. It's beating Shao Kahn, being faster then Hamilton or Rossi in his glory days, or running through a Champions League teams defense in Messi style.



I think that you assume that sharpening is harder than what it is. Creating a sharp apex is fairly easy. Given enough time each day and good stones even a novice will be able to achieve to pass HHT in 30 days. Perhaps not on 1K stone, but pass the test.
It is much harder to understand and mantain the geometry, understand how to blend the bevels, understand the difference in grits/performance and keep the knife cutting ability top notch. This is what takes the most time to master - understaning of the knife and not the repetetive motions.


----------



## ian

Yea, I don't think of HHT as a sign that you're an amazing sharpener. It's certainly not an end goal like defeating the big boss. It's an amusing pursuit that can earn you $200.


----------



## Kawa

Ruso said:


> I think that you assume that sharpening is harder than what it is. Creating a sharp apex is fairly easy. Given enough time each day and good stones even a novice will be able to achieve to pass HHT in 30 days. Perhaps not on 1K stone, but pass the test.
> It is much harder to understand and mantain the geometry, understand how to blend the bevels, understand the difference in grits/performance and keep the knife cutting ability top notch. This is what takes the most time to master - understaning of the knife and not the repetetive motions.



I think it is _easy to learn, hard to master_

I dont believe any novice that starts today will be able to get that perfect clean edge to do a solid HHT in 30 days. Just look at all the sharpening problem topics popping up every day. Those arent all question from people who started max 30 days or so ago.
You might have forgotten how it all started for you, many many years ago .


Things like, keeping the exact angle every time you check and put the knife on the stones again, isnt as simple as it sounds.
Even with sharpy, you can check and see if you did right or wrong, but the moment you put the knife on the stone again you can only hope your adjustment (or not) has the right effect.
Feeling what a stone does or should do, on different knives and such, is something that comes with years, not with days.

edit: 
another thing crossing my mind is the transition towards the belly of a knife. 'Raise your holding hand'. The theory is clear. Practise shows the belly remains hard for quite a long time.


----------



## ian

I imagine passing HHT on a mid grit stone is mostly about making the stone behave like a higher grit stone, by controlling the conditioning of the surface and pressure. I don't understand how you can create that kind of refined apex otherwise.

And you're equating a HHT edge with "perfection". It's not perfection, it's a HHT edge. You can have non-HHT passing edges that are better for kitchen work.

That said, I'm no expert sharpener.


----------



## Kawa

You all are right about me probably romantising the HHT too much.

Might be because I dont get there yet.


----------



## Kawa

ian said:


> I imagine passing HHT on a mid grit stone is mostly about making the stone behave like a higher grit stone, by controlling the conditioning of the surface and pressure. I don't understand how you can create that kind of refined apex otherwise.
> 
> And you're equating a HHT edge with "perfection". It's not perfection, it's a HHT edge. You can have non-HHT passing edges that are better for kitchen work.
> 
> *That said, I'm no expert sharpener.*



But you can become one, in only 30 days if I read correctly


----------



## captaincaed

Kawa said:


> You all are right about me probably romantising the HHT too much.
> 
> Might be because I dont get there yet.


I think you're making it out to be a bridge too far. I didn't expect to get there for a couple weeks. However, thinking about these things ...


ian said:


> I imagine passing HHT on a mid grit stone is mostly about making the stone behave like a higher grit stone, by controlling the conditioning of the surface and pressure. I don't understand how you can create that kind of refined apex otherwise.



... I could actually start to get it to work.

Steady hand angle is key, pure muscle memory, and that's one reason I set this as a daily goal for a month. As a home cook, I just don't do that many reps normally, but I knew I would if I made it a priority (and sacrificed my beater for the trial).

I'd say give it a go, 15" per day. Get used to staring at the knife, the stone, the angle, your hand placement. Use the same knife all month so you get used to seeing the same darn thing. Even if you're not HHT-Stringer, you're going to be a mile ahead of old Kawa. Also, I stupidly just realized your image is a bike, and not a frog 

Personally, I had another edge failure. Got it back to HHT-2/3, cutting waves in paper towel. Cut some bread, edge rolled. I'm learning a ton about how far I can push my microbevel angle! I'm internalizing the idea that an HHT edge is a cool trick but not useful for bulk veg prep. Maybe sushi, but I don't make that at home.


----------



## Kawa

A succeeding HHT isnt a goal per se.
Its 'prove' that you are able to get a very clean refined edge.
From there it is easy to roughen the edge a bit on a medium stone to get it grabby enough for food prep.

A regular coarse (or medium edge with enough bite) can mask the fact that your edge isnt great/clean enough. The 'saw' will cut food anyway.

That's probably why I lean towards 'if you are able to get a knife HHT sharp, you are able to create a perfect edge'. The refinedness of a HHT edge isnt good for normal food prep I know, but it's all in the 'being able to'.
From there it is only choosing/touching with the right finishing stone. Atleast you know for sure you have the skills to create the perfect edge.

Maybe I should let this theory go...


----------



## jwthaparc

Kawa said:


> A succeeding HHT isnt a goal per se.
> Its 'prove' that you are able to get a very clean refined edge.
> From there it is easy to roughen the edge a bit on a medium stone to get it grabby enough for food prep.
> 
> A regular coarse (or medium edge with enough bite) can mask the fact that your edge isnt great/clean enough. The 'saw' will cut food anyway.
> 
> That's probably why I lean towards 'if you are able to get a knife HHT sharp, you are able to create a perfect edge'. The refinedness of a HHT edge isnt good for normal food prep I know, but it's all in the 'being able to'.
> From there it is only choosing/touching with the right finishing stone. Atleast you know for sure you have the skills to create the perfect edge.
> 
> Maybe I should let this theory go...


If it's as simple as refinement on the edge. I will give it a try again, with the idea of refinement in mind. Condition the surface after raising a burr, raise some slurry, and work it like a natural stone.


----------



## Kawa

Clearly you need a perfect apexed edge aswell, not just refined.
(refined for me means highly polished/ without teeth/ slick/ smooth) but meaning of these words may differ due to translation. English is not my main.


----------



## jwthaparc

Kawa said:


> Clearly you need a perfect apexed edge aswell, not just refined.
> (refined for me means highly polished/ without teeth/ slick/ smooth) but meaning of these words may differ due to translation. English is not my main.


Thats what refinement means to me too.


----------



## KingShapton

jwthaparc said:


> Thats what refinement means to me too.


----------



## Luftmensch

Kawa said:


> That's probably why I lean towards 'if you are able to get a knife HHT sharp, you are able to create a perfect edge'. The refinedness of a HHT edge isnt good for normal food prep I know, but it's all in the 'being able to'.
> From there it is only choosing/touching with the right finishing stone. Atleast you know for sure you have the skills to create the perfect edge.
> 
> Maybe I should let this theory go...



I agree with your sentiments.

Perfect is a slippery concept. It means different things to different people. I wouldnt cast HHT as a 'perfect' edge. Instead i view it more as a measure of how much control you have during sharpening. If you can pass HHT on a kitchen knife it could indicate an degree of skill/finesse. That said, I wouldnt argue that ability is important or useful in kitchen knives.

I was thinking about the grit at which you can pass HHT.

The razor community emphasises different things to the kitchen knife community. One point I took away from the razor community is the importance of setting a bevel. Put another way - you cant polish a turd. If you havent done your job at 1000 grit, you aren't going to be able to fix it by moving up to 3000 or 5000 grit (as a general rule). Being reductionist, 98% of the job is done at low grits. All the higher grits are polishing (refinement if you will). I don't think the kitchen knife community is as militant about emphasising that point of view. Similarly, the razor community is also more militant about advising sharpeners not to progress to the next grit until you have completely removed the scratch pattern from the previous grit.

The importance of low grits for kitchen cutlery is alluded to when we talk about burr formation. It is a solid indicator that an apex has been formed. But you dont necessarily have to raise a visible or easily detected burr. The size of the burr depends on steel, pressure and technique. In fact, one definition of 'perfect' sharpening might include using the highest pressure possible without raising a 'large' burr. If that sounds silly, consider this: the razor community see burrs as a symptom of honing with _too much_ pressure. Again; different tools, different community, different perspective - but useful in recognising there are many routes to a useful result.

Bouncing off those ideas; passing HHT may show you how much performance you can extract out of your grit progression. The lower the grit you pass HHT, the less you may need higher grits (depending on your objectives). It may also be an indicator that your skill _is_ capable of taking advantage of the next grit.


But yeah... do HHT for fun! If you have no complaints in the kitchen... then regardless of HHT, you are sharpening right!


----------



## jwthaparc

I finally got it to catch and pop. Using my chosera 800, followed by light stropping with green compound at a very low angle. However I had a really hard time with getting it on video. So I finally just ended up filming this. 



Edit: if you wonder whats up with my chosera in the background, I had to epoxy butchers twine around the outside to make sure it held together tightly after it cracked in half. When I dropped it from about 4 inches onto its face on cement.


----------



## captaincaed

That's what I'm talking about, nice clean edge. How's it feel?

Also, write back how it holds up in the kitchen afterward!


----------



## jwthaparc

captaincaed said:


> That's what I'm talking about, nice clean edge. How's it feel?
> 
> Also, write back how it holds up in the kitchen afterward!


Feels good right now. I will use it today, so we'll see. I'll post another video of the edge after I'm done cooking. I dont expect today will be particularly hard on the edge or anything. I'm mostly planning to cut up some potatoes. 

Btw, I just realized your thing under your name was a cigarette.


----------



## Kawa

I keep on thinking..

How can one see a frog in my avatar


----------



## jwthaparc

Kawa said:


> I keep on thinking..
> 
> How can one see a frog in my avatar


Lol


----------



## KingShapton

Kawa said:


> I keep on thinking..
> 
> How can one see a frog in my avatar


I can't explain it to you either ... but I also have to plead guilty ... I also saw the frog in your avatar ...

Now, on closer inspection, I of course recognize the bike ... Sorry


----------



## RDalman

Had a thought as I was stuck on 60 grit at work. See if that does it. But mayyybe that's more like a 10k deburr 



Edit And a choil shot 




And some banging.. Yup that's a bit fragile


----------



## Garm

RDalman said:


> Had a thought as I was stuck on 60 grit at work. See if that does it. But mayyybe that's more like a 10k deburr
> 
> 
> 
> Edit And a choil shot View attachment 113728
> 
> And some banging.. Yup that's a bit fragile



Cool, I'll just sent you a new padded envelope in stead of the one you cut, and a box, so you can ship the knife to me


----------



## jwthaparc

Ok, so I used that knife for dinner tonight. It mostly cut potatoes, I used the tip to slice open some meat, and minced some garlic. The results were about what I expected, the edge is not nearly as clean now. It did still cut the paper towel, just more rough. When touching the edge it still has that grabby sharp feeling.


----------



## Luftmensch

RDalman said:


> Had a thought as I was stuck on 60 grit at work. See if that does it. But mayyybe that's more like a 10k deburr
> 
> 
> 
> Edit And a choil shot View attachment 113728
> 
> And some banging.. Yup that's a bit fragile




Awesome video content!

"Ok... Hello"


----------



## cotedupy

I haven't been trying this in earnest yet, but do now occasionally try a hair after sharpening stuff (usually just on my King 1.2k for a couple of mins). No cutting of hair to be had at all I'm afraid, but usually 'violin-ing', or splitting the hair.

Though I have just got a diamond plate so my stones are all now properly flat for the first time in a while, so I may have to try properly. Whilst I'm pretty happy with the edges I get and their durability, this is definitely a fun experiment!


----------



## jwthaparc

cotedupy said:


> I haven't been trying this in earnest yet, but do now occasionally try a hair after sharpening stuff (usually just on my King 1.2k for a couple of mins). No cutting of hair to be had at all I'm afraid, but usually 'violin-ing', or splitting the hair.
> 
> Though I have just got a diamond plate so my stones are all now properly flat for the first time in a while, so I may have to try properly. Whilst I'm pretty happy with the edges I get and their durability, this is definitely a fun experiment!


It's fun, until it's frustrating. 

The diamond plate will be a huge help though.


----------



## cotedupy

jwthaparc said:


> It's fun, until it's frustrating.
> 
> The diamond plate will be a huge help though.



Haha! Yeah, I suspect I might have to go to quite a fine grit to do it, and pay more attention to stropping rather than just kinda wiping blades on a phone book. And even then I wouldn't have much confidence in my ability to be able to get there! Vamos a ver...


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

RDalman said:


> Had a thought as I was stuck on 60 grit at work. See if that does it. But mayyybe that's more like a 10k deburr




 baby nakiri


----------



## captaincaed

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> baby nakiri


No no no, it's a test coupon with a convenience handle, right?


----------



## RDalman

captaincaed said:


> No no no, it's a test coupon with a convenience handle, right?


Broken knife with broken handle


----------



## RDalman

Luftmensch said:


> Awesome video content!
> 
> "Ok... Hello"


Actually it was swedish, ok... Hej då, but maybe the quicker spoken version.. Hejrå.


----------



## Kawa

Are you telling me the knives you make are normally able to withstand the torture you did to that little nakiri? 



(Or are all properly balanced knives able to withstand that? Then I'm way too carefull with my stuff...)


----------



## Kippington

Kawa said:


> Are you telling me the knives you make are normally able to withstand the torture you did to that little nakiri?


The knife held up fine. It was only the edge that didn't hold, and seeing that the edge was tailored for a HHT, it makes sense that it didn't like getting slammed onto a wooden board.



Kawa said:


> (Or are all properly balanced knives able to withstand that? Then I'm way too carefull with my stuff...)


You should sharpen (and grind) for the job the blade was designed for.

One of the perks of being a bladesmith is that we have loads of spare knives to mess around with and test the limits of the steel. We're much more willing to over-stress a blade than a collector.


----------



## Kawa

Kippington said:


> The knife held up fine. It was only the edge that didn't hold, and seeing that the edge was tailored for a HHT, it makes sense that it didn't like getting slammed onto a wooden board.
> 
> 
> You should sharpen (and grind) for the job the blade was designed for.
> 
> One of the perks of being a bladesmith is that we have loads of spare knives to mess around with and test the limits of the steel. We're much more willing to over-stress a blade than a collector.



Ty for the reply.

Truth is, I know very little about knives.

I started restoring bowlingballs many years ago, which involves sanding, grinding and polishing (320-8000 range)
From there I started sharpening my 3,- knives when I started living on my own in my college time, many many years ago.
From there I learned about better stones, better steels -> getting better sharpening results
From there I started to cook at home, because your edges need to get worm, to be able to keep sharpening  (no-one around me has Japanese knives, quality Germans at top)
Since 'ze Corona haz arrived' I stepped up my game and sharpening became a more serious hobby. Untill then it was something I did a few days/weeks per year in a hype, to lay down the stones for several months after.

I have very little field experience in all this. Sometimes I dont know what to expect, what I may expect and what not.


----------



## RDalman

Kawa said:


> Are you telling me the knives you make are normally able to withstand the torture you did to that little nakiri?
> 
> 
> 
> (Or are all properly balanced knives able to withstand that? Then I'm way too carefull with my stuff...)


I would say no, I make my knives with probably thinner edges than is reasonable for most, because it's much easier to "thicken" a edge up to preference for the user, than it is to thin out. But I do microbevel them on whetstones much better edge imo than that 60 grit hht crap-edge


----------



## stringer

I have been using that nakiri every night for dinner for a few weeks. I have been pleasantly surprised how it's held up. The only real visible damage is near the choil. It wouldn't pop a hair anymore but still no trouble shaving arm hair. Before the end of the month I'll try some other knives. I bet my monster Sabatier will pop hairs. Might try a real cheap one too if I get to it.


----------



## big_adventure

stringer said:


> I have been using that nakiri every night for dinner for a few weeks. I have been pleasantly surprised how it's held up. The only real visible damage is near the choil. It wouldn't pop a hair anymore but still no trouble shaving arm hair. Before the end of the month I'll try some other knives. I bet my monster Sabatier will pop hairs. Might try a real cheap one too if I get to it.




That video was extremely relaxing.


----------



## captaincaed

Man there's nothing wrong with that edge. 

I'm just hung up on bare hands with raw habenero. I touch my face too much to get away with that.


----------



## big_adventure

captaincaed said:


> I'm just hung up on bare hands with raw habenero. I touch my face too much to get away with that.



You don't think that once would be enough?


----------



## M1k3

captaincaed said:


> Man there's nothing wrong with that edge.
> 
> I'm just hung up on bare hands with raw habenero. I touch my face too much to get away with that.


Go to the bathroom after.


----------



## captaincaed

I'm a very slow learner...


----------



## ian

My son has been making jokes about jalaPAINyos constantly for the past few days.


----------



## big_adventure

ian said:


> My son has been making jokes about jalaPAINyos constantly for the past few days.



Ah, kids, once they find a joke they like, they will stick with it until the UN signs a formal resolution banning it and sends in a multinational peacekeeping expedition.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

captaincaed said:


> Nice! Can you get there without the suita....?



Yes on a SG4000, really pushing the borders of "mid grit"

My phone camera doesn't want to focus right now, but <insert HHT here>


----------



## captaincaed

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Yes on a SG4000, really pushing the borders of "mid grit"
> 
> My phone camera doesn't want to focus right now, but <insert HHT here>


Baller! So far I haven't seen one pass in this thread without a strop yet, I don't think. 

I'm still fighting this 1k...


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

captaincaed said:


> Baller! So far I haven't seen one pass in this thread without a strop yet, I don't think.
> 
> I'm still fighting this 1k...



Thanks.
@Kippington and @stringer are a few HHTs above me, so I still have further to go. My edge won't hold the HHT after a few weeks of use like stringers either.

I made a major change to my sharpening technique a while back when I realized I wasn't getting any nail bite. I just make stropping motions now (instead of typical push pull), and if I want to remove more metal I'll go down in grit rather than spending more time on the stone. I'm not a good sharpener, so the more time I spend on the stone the more wobble I will introduce.

This time I spend around 30 swipes on the 4k stone, deburring included.

I've heard what Kip said be described as "kissing" or "riding" the apex, and that's what I do: every time I go up in grit, I raise the angle slightly so I feel it encroaching a little more on the apex.

1k is hard. I will not even try that 
Would you need to force a wire edge if you wanted to pass it at that grit? I would have assumed that the theoretically finest non-wire edge from a 1k wouldn't be thin enough to get in between the discs of the hair to split it.

Here's my best effort to capture it after 20 minutes of trying to get my camera to focus...


----------



## captaincaed

Nice work man!

So full disclosure, I'm trying the 1k, and a wider inclusive angle. Stringer's been talking about how a narrow angle is pretty key for this test, and I'm starting to feel the truth in that. No luck at all. I even flipped the stone over to the 4k side, no luck. Then dropped back down to 1k for a couple passes. No luck. Still working on the Mac to reduce the number of variables I'm juggling. I can get some fairly clean cuts in paper towel, but not quite as nice as before. 

Here's another little thing I've noticed. That JKI 2k stone is stunning. Great feedback, and what feels like very consistent particle size. I can see flecks of sh*t in this Togiharu 1k/4k I have. It doesn't feel as consistent when sharpening, now that I'm really paying attention. Even though it's straddling both sides of the JKI 2k, I don't think it's got a better edge today than last week. It's too bad, because it _feels_ nice to use and has good feedback.

Next week I'm switching to a finer grained carbon steel and see how that goes.

What does the forum think, which knife should I work on next?

Kochi Takefu V2
Bazes Takefu Shiro2
Fujiwara Hitachi aogami super
Murata Hitachi aogami 1 (if I even get it back from the shop...)
After all this, I'm going to give the Yoshikane A2 a shot, but I want to cover both extremes first.


----------



## ian

You're going off the deep end! We can help you stop, you just need to want to be helped.

Do the Takefu Shiro 2, if you refuse.


----------



## Luftmensch

captaincaed said:


> What does the forum think, which knife should I work on next?
> 
> Kochi Takefu V2
> Bazes Takefu Shiro2
> Fujiwara Hitachi aogami super
> Murata Hitachi aogami 1 (if I even get it back from the shop...)



Not that I am saying you should... but if *I* had to focus on one 'number'... it would be the hardness. Maybe choose the hardest of those listed??


----------



## stringer

Those names mean very little to me. They sound authentically Japanese and probably suitable to the task. I don't very much think that the steel matters among those choices (My tosa nakiri is 36$ iron clad mystery core). I would pick whichever one is thinnest 15mm behind the edge and I would shoot for a clean micro convexed apex.

If you can get that straight off of a mid range stone freehand then that is truly impressive in my book. I don't expect even my straight razors to get much past violin stage until I do a clean leather strop. I always strop my kitchen knives on something after the stones. Even if that's just a kitchen rag or a bit of cardboard or the palm of my hand.

But if I had to pick from those choices I would go with whichever one is thinnest 15 mm behind the edge. Put a very clean 2k apex on it around 25 degrees inclusive and it will pop hairs whether it's HRC 55 or 75.


----------



## Luftmensch

stringer said:


> it will pop hairs whether it's HRC 55 or 75.



I agree with everything you have said. Primarily; popping hairs is more easily done at acute angles. 

On the topic of hardness. While I agree... 55 HRC steel is no less capable of popping hairs than 75 HRC steel... I think it is _easier_ to finesse harder steels. In practice, I find that although harder steel takes more work to abrade, I feel it is easier to prevent the very edge from rolling/foiling. For me, ZDP189 at ~66HRC produces very tiny (negligible) burrs. I _feel_ like it is easier to sneak up on a finer, less fatigued apex... but that is just anecdotal!


----------



## captaincaed

I'm a


ian said:


> You're going off the deep end! We can help you stop, you just need to want to be helped.
> 
> Do the Takefu Shiro 2, if you refuse.



I'm avoiding my thesis like the plague


----------



## captaincaed

I really appreciate how you're all in on old dirty carbon. I'd work up my Sab in your honor but that thing is chonky, and my hard duty knife. Don't want to thin it too much.

Maybe I'll do the kiwi nakiri...



> Those names mean very little to me.


----------



## big_adventure

In honor of iron clad mystery core (which sounds like a good name for a heavy post techno electronic music style) I'm going to set to work on an aliexpress "67 layer damascus vg10" knife lying around here, purchased a while back as an experiment. Full disclosure, it's not one of the brutally cheap ones, it was around a hundred bucks, but it's obviously of mysterious provenance. Even more full disclosure, it's not a bad knife. There, I said it. I hope I don't get banned. Results to follow.


----------



## big_adventure

Well, so far it's a failure for me on phase two of "Why the hell are we doing this?"

Here is the victim...






It's a 210 ktip gyuto from something called Hehzen on aliexpress. Allegedly, it's 67 layers, damascus, VG10 core. Now, I know that billets of pre-made damascus clad VG10 are easily available, but that doesn't mean that this is definitely that. the core is visible under the cladding layers on both the choil and the spine. It cost about a hundred bucks IIRC. The handle is allegedly horn and ebony. Weight is 173g, it came pretty sharp, dulled quickly by my standards (this is like almost every knife I've ever owned), and took quite a decent edge in my early days of sharpening, and it's held it since in very limited use. It came with a leather sheath/saya that makes it the general beater I bring to other peoples' houses when I don't trust the situation. Height is 48mm, spine is 2.2 at the heel, 2 mid-blade, 1.6 right at the top of the K-tip. The blade is pretty flexible. It's really not a bad cutter, though it's definitely at the very bottom of my choices, and as such, doesn't rate valuable mag strip space, living in the cupboard in its saya. It has it's place as an experimental toy, however. For example, I've never really abused a dammy knife before, and wouldn't want to with a nice one, so I abused the other side, wanting to see what would happen. Well, it has shiny spots of metal now, I guess like one would figure. Now I'll see if I can re-etch it.

For today's adventure, step one, I checked it and it's still sharp. The edge wasn't perfect, but I've improved a lot as a sharpener since the last time working on this edge. I decided that, for the first round, I'd just hammer it on the 3K Chosera and see what we get. So, sharpie on, edge trailing on the stone to build a burr, high angle passes to remove, edge leading to strop/polish. Nice slightly convex edge at probably 28 ish or so degrees incl. Then stropped on green infused leather, just 10 strokes each direction. And... it's sharp. It will shave arm hair without any pressure at all, will push cut tissue and paper towels. But... no HHT. It will snag a tiny bit once in a while, but it would be a stretch to even call it HHT1. The hair seen on the paper is either from using a finger on the other side to guide the hair and add resistance, or when I cut a swath of hair off my arm. 

Back to the trying board.


----------



## big_adventure

EUREKA! 

So, after lunch and playing cards with the kids, we went back to project mode. 

I rebuilt the edge completely at about 22-24 degrees inclusive, starting on Chosera 400, then Chosera 1K, then Chosera 3k, then stropping. 






And it works! Ish... It took a solid 15 or 20 tries to get 2 cuts, but whatever, I'll take it.

I have no idea if this edge will hold up - the edge I, first did this with, on a Moritaka AS nakiri, has actually held up amazingly though a ton of prep, but that knife is a very different beast than this one.

Ironically this is now probably the sharpest knife I own, at least for today.


----------



## captaincaed

Yeah, it may not last, but well done! You know you can get there.


----------



## big_adventure

So - man being stuck at home with covid leaves an insane amount of idle time - since the stones were out I checked the edges on my rotation knives, and, well, they were all in great shape, EXCEPT there was a minuscule tiny maybe chip maybe reflection on the edge of the aforementioned Moritaka AS nakiri. Yes! something to do! Since the 3K was already on the workspace (just a bamboo board that serves as a sharpening station really), it was time for some sharpening just to ease that guy out. The knife was still capable of push cutting tissue and paper towels, cutting through cherry tomatoes on weight alone and shaving arm hair, but... AS is just so damn easy to sharpen: in about 5 minutes, I'd reset the edge, deburred, polished, microbeveled, deburred that and stropped. And damn if this knife isn't HHT3/4 again, just like that. Last time, I had to go to the 6K stone to get to this level, so I see this as personal improvement.

Sorry-not-sorry for the extended travelogue today.


----------



## jwthaparc

big_adventure said:


> So - man being stuck at home with covid leaves an insane amount of idle time - since the stones were out I checked the edges on my rotation knives, and, well, they were all in great shape, EXCEPT there was a minuscule tiny maybe chip maybe reflection on the edge of the aforementioned Moritaka AS nakiri. Yes! something to do!


I seriously feel that.


----------



## big_adventure

jwthaparc said:


> I seriously feel that.



How are you guys holding up there? Texas seems like the apocalypse at the moment.


----------



## jwthaparc

big_adventure said:


> How are you guys holding up there? Texas seems like the apocalypse at the moment.


Yeah it was a rough week down here. We lost power a few times. Lost water for a bit. We are still on a boil advisory for the water atm. Things are getting a bit better.


----------



## big_adventure

jwthaparc said:


> Yeah it was a rough week down here. We lost power a few times. Lost water for a bit. We are still on a boil advisory for the water atm. Things are getting a bit better.



Glad to hear you are pulling through. Stay warm and stay safe.


----------



## stringer

Ok new video. I cut up some chickens tonight with the thin little nakiri for giggles.


----------



## ian

stringer said:


> Ok new video. I cut up some chickens tonight with the thin little nakiri for giggles.




1) Does it still pass HHT?

2) Why are you cutting up so many chickens? Aren't you out of kitchens now?


----------



## stringer

ian said:


> 1) Does it still pass HHT?
> 
> 2) Why are you cutting up so many chickens? Aren't you out of kitchens now?



1. It doesn't pass hanging hair test. But it still shaves fine. Damage is becoming more obvious. 

2. Two chickens is too many? I'm not working kitchens at the moment but never say never, gotta keep up my skills.


----------



## ian

stringer said:


> 1. It doesn't pass hanging hair test. But it still shaves fine. Damage is becoming more obvious.
> 
> 2. Two chickens is too many? I'm not working kitchens at the moment but never say never, gotta keep up my skills.



 I may not have watched the entire video and I may have assumed there were more. You know how it is with chickens. That said, 2 is a lot in my house. We're a "chicken a week" family.


----------



## captaincaed

stringer said:


> Ok new video. I cut up some chickens tonight with the thin little nakiri for giggles.




Ffs.

I'm slowly raising my angle to get get a usable edge. Keeps rolling. Maybe this Mac steel just needs a beefier edge. Definitely not passing hht any more. 

Learning a lot about angles this month.


----------



## big_adventure

stringer said:


> Ok new video. I cut up some chickens tonight with the thin little nakiri for giggles.




Next challenge for you: traditional french chicken debone with the nakiri.


----------



## big_adventure

After some extensive testing (this kept going and kept going and kept going)...

Getting a knife to HHT on a 3K stone plus strop on leather is very consistently doable with a patience and practice. Yesterday and the day before, I'd pushed the edges on 5 of my knives to HHT levels between 2 and 4, all on a Chosera 3K. The aforementioned AS Mori (HHT4), the equally aforementioned Hehzen whatever-the-hell-it-is (HHT2/3) plus a Shig Ku nakiri (HHT2/3), a Sukenari ZDP189 k-tip (HHT3) and a Hinoura AS gyuto (HHT4). Yes, being stuck inside with Covid and 3 pretty big kids leaves me far too much time to obesess and play.

Notes: 
1. Angle is critical - this shocks nobody, but the angle of the edge is as important as a clean edge. Edges done over about 25 degrees inclusive are going to have much more difficulty passing this test. 

2. Clean deburr and polish are also important - but there are exceptions. Burrs are sharp, after all, and a foil burr can pass HHT. It just won't cut food, and it may actually break on a hair. 

3. Microbevel isn't important and might actually get in the way: it's increasing the angle, obviously. If you are REALLY good, and confident you can put one on that is less than a micron wide, go for it, if not, it's probably best to not microbevel the edge for this test. OTOH, do the test, then microbevel if you want a more durable edge. The obvious exception would be for a really hard steel: I put a small micro on the ZDP189 guyto, but that steel is so hard I was quite confident that a couple of light passes wouldn't wear even close to a micron-wide bevel into it.

4. How well the edge holds depends on just how narrow it is of course, how hard you use the knife (of course number 2) and, woohoo, "of course" 3, the steel. I decided to do this to a selection of knives exactly because the Mori held up so well the first time I managed an HHT edge. It didn't maintain HHT for more than two light preps, but it was still the sharpest knife on my strip for a number of sessions, including some decently hard plus not-hard stuff (leeks, carrots, onions, potatoes, shallots, garlic, radishes, cucumbers, tomatoes, squash). It was still gliding through tomatoes and whole unpeeled onions after at least 6 or 7 sessions. People are going to be amazed, I know, that AS takes a great edge and holds it pretty well. ZDP189 too - I pushed it to HHT3 + yesterday, did a full prep session, and it was still passing the test after.

Anyway, just my notes from my illness-fueled addiction. Better than going all Shining on the family.


----------



## jwthaparc

stringer said:


> Ok new video. I cut up some chickens tonight with the thin little nakiri for giggles.



Yes officer that's the man right there!


----------



## Kawa

Nakiri: Vegetable meat knife


----------



## captaincaed

@stringer off topic but related: do you find that some grit/specific stone gives you a non-draggy feeling after thinning? I'm trying not to get fussy, looking for a practical stopping place. Seems like 2k and above is pretty good, and below that I start to feel it.


----------



## stringer

captaincaed said:


> @stringer off topic but related: do you find that some grit/specific stone gives you a non-draggy feeling after thinning? I'm trying not to get fussy, looking for a practical stopping place. Seems like 2k and above is pretty good, and below that I start to feel it.



Not really. I pretty much hate the sticky suction feeling no matter what. For carbon/iron clad nothing beats patina. Nature's kasumi. I'll stop at 500-1k and then chop a couple pounds of onions. Monosteel a little further 1-4k depending on how the particular knife feels in use.


----------



## jwthaparc

captaincaed said:


> @stringer off topic but related: do you find that some grit/specific stone gives you a non-draggy feeling after thinning? I'm trying not to get fussy, looking for a practical stopping place. Seems like 2k and above is pretty good, and below that I start to feel it.


I know you weren't asking me but. I honestly feel like 4k is really where it starts to improve. Possibly some 3ks. Above that as far as performance it's just diminishing returns. However it won't hurt any, and it looks nice.


----------



## captaincaed

stringer said:


> Not really. I pretty much hate the sticky suction feeling no matter what. For carbon/iron clad nothing beats patina. Nature's kasumi.


Yeah I found this too. One knife I had was jekyll and Hyde depending on patina. Hot beef roast seems pretty nice too. 

I'm working on one that looked good on paper but needs some 220 grit love before it's serviceable.


----------



## captaincaed

jwthaparc said:


> I know you weren't asking me but. I honestly feel like 4k is really where it starts to improve. Possibly some 3ks. Above that as far as performance it's just diminishing returns. However it won't hurt any, and it looks nice.


My Aizu seems to leave a nice finish, first time I've messed with Jnats and polishing


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## Desert Rat

I got there with a coticule to black ark progression on AS steel. It took a few tries, I'm just not as steady as I used to be that's for sure.


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## captaincaed

Hot dang. Arguably higher grit stones, but if I'm honest I was going to try the same thing. I knew Moritaka has some wonky grinds but I did like the steel 

Also my thesis is kicking my ass, and I haven't sharpened much this week.


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## Desert Rat

I tried pretty much the same progression on a Higonokami pocket knife. I couldn't get past a fiddle but the hair I have to work with is very fine.


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## big_adventure

captaincaed said:


> Hot dang. Arguably higher grit stones, but if I'm honest I was going to try the same thing. I knew Moritaka has some wonky grinds but I did like the steel
> 
> Also my thesis is kicking my ass, and I haven't sharpened much this week.



My Moritaka required a faire bit of work out of the box, but it's simply amazing now. It's so thin that it feels like it would be fragile, but it's simply not. Crazy sharp edges last and last. Fit and finish are... rustic... to say the least, but the knife does knife things incredibly well.


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## jwthaparc

Desert Rat said:


> I tried pretty much the same progression on a Higonokami pocket knife. I couldn't get past a fiddle but the hair I have to work with is very fine.


Do you have a zero grind on you higonokami? That definitely helps a lot.


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## Desert Rat

jwthaparc said:


> Do you have a zero grind on you higonokami? That definitely helps a lot.


Kind of, I finish it with a micro bevel though. When the micro bevel becomes to big for quick and fast touch ups I take it back down to zero and start the process all over.
I discovered that it's actually my wife's knife after not returning it to the bowl that has some pens, tape and odds-n ends. Apparently it's her go to for mail and boxes. The sharpest letter opener on the block...

Was you able to pass an HHT with yours and if so what did you use?


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## Desert Rat

I went back to my wife's Higonokami. I failed with a Nakayama Kita, coticule and an old JNAT barbers hone. I could get them to fiddle but just needed a little more. I even tried stropping on newspaper and that usually gives me a little bump but no dice. I then went to a vintage translucent ark on soap and water and it started whittling hairs. A newspaper strop might move the needle a bit from there I don't know.

Are all these Higonokami carbon knifes the same steel? I heard they were blue steel but what one?


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## captaincaed

Nice work. I had set my arks aside until I got a razor, then they came right back out and are here to stay

I think you must have a steady hand to whittle hair finishing a curved knife edge like so


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## Kawa

Desert Rat said:


> I went back to my wife's Higonokami. I failed with a Nakayama Kita, coticule and an old JNAT barbers hone. I could get them to fiddle but just needed a little more. I even tried stropping on newspaper and that usually gives me a little bump but no dice. I then went to a vintage translucent ark on soap and water and it started whittling hairs. A newspaper strop might move the needle a bit from there I don't know.
> 
> Are all these Higonokami carbon knifes the same steel? I heard they were blue steel but what one?




No, there are at least 3 different kind of steels available.

SK-carbonsteel (whatever that is) @ 59 HRC
there is Aogami @ ? Hrc
And there is Shirogami @ 64 HRC






69 producten gevonden







www.knivesandtools.nl






Arent they all very thick behind the edge? Even a zero grind still makes a big angle inclusive. That, from what I read in this topic, doesn't help if you want to split hairs.


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## Desert Rat

Kawa said:


> No, there are at least 3 different kind of steels available.
> 
> SK-carbonsteel (whatever that is) @ 59 HRC
> there is Aogami @ ? Hrc
> And there is Shirogami @ 64 HRC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 69 producten gevonden
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.knivesandtools.nl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arent they all very thick behind the edge? Even a zero grind still makes a big angle inclusive. That, from what I read in this topic, doesn't help if you want to split hairs.


 Perhaps the thickness behind the edge and the more obtuse edge angle with a micro bevel results in more split hair vs cutting them out right?

The knife I was using is the lowest cost one I could find on ebay, so maybe the SK steel.


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## stringer

The inclusive angle and the cleanness of the apex work together I think. I have seen people split hairs with axes and chisels and plane irons, etc. Especially if you use a guided system to really help control the apex. There isn't any reason why you couldn't achieve the same results free hand. It is just a heck of a lot easier if you are dealing with a smaller inclusive bevel angle. Straight razors typically have a Goldilocks inclusive bevel angle of something like 14-18 degrees. Smaller than 14 degrees tends to peel your skin off with hardly any contact. Greater than 18 degrees has a tougher time popping hairs so you have to use a more aggressive cutting angle which also irritates the skin. The cutting edge of a knife is a little thicker. More like 20-25 degrees inclusive for even the most aggressive flat ground zero bevel. But it will still get you there if the apex is nice and clean. Go up past 25 degrees and the job becomes more difficult freehand but I don't think impossible. I have definitely gotten my deba there. The finer grained and harder the steel the easier it is to get a knife to develop and hold a nice crisp hair popping apex. Japanese paper steel should work well (regardless blue/white/yellow, zero bevel/micro bevel/convex bevel) because it is generally hard enough and finely grained enough to get there.


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## Desert Rat

Stringer, I never get to splitting hairs with razors and I didn't with the Moritaka either. The thinner blades simply cut the hair. Maybe it's all about bevel angle I don't know?

Aren't most kamisori's a little over twenty degrees? They are among the most reliable razors I have for passing HHT's and delivering smooth comfortable shaves. Half of that sentence is completely subjective though.


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## Desert Rat

OK I measured some Kmaisori's. They ranged form 17 to 21 so I think most are probably under twenty.


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## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> Stringer, I never get to splitting hairs with razors and I didn't with the Moritaka either. The thinner blades simply cut the hair. Maybe it's all about bevel angle I don't know?
> 
> Aren't most kamisori's a little over twenty degrees? They are among the most reliable razors I have for passing HHT's and delivering smooth comfortable shaves. Half of that sentence is completely subjective though.



I'm just speculating mainly. I don't really know what's going on at the edge. I have honed about a 100 or so fleabay specials up. I very rarely get one that passes fiddling without going to the strop first. But then I can get it to pass HHT off of my bevel setter (Shapton Pro 1500), though I haven't tried to shave with it. From there 50 strokes on a coticule and I have a very comfortable shave.

I haven't done any kamisoris yet. I own one that someone sent me with a stone one time, but I never did anything with it. In general though, any loss of sharpness from a wider bevel is probably made up for with harder more refined steel.


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## Desert Rat

stringer said:


> I'm just speculating mainly. I don't really know what's going on at the edge. I have honed about a 100 or so fleabay specials up. I very rarely get one that passes fiddling without going to the strop first. But then I can get it to pass HHT off of my bevel setter (Shapton Pro 1500), though I haven't tried to shave with it. From there 50 strokes on a coticule and I have a very comfortable shave.
> 
> I haven't done any kamisoris yet. I own one that someone sent me with a stone one time, but I never did anything with it. In general though, any loss of sharpness from a wider bevel is probably made up for with harder more refined steel.



I'm going to experiment a little with HHT's and coarser stones, but I will be pretty much limited to naturals. I don't have much confidence that I can do it. I'm also going to look for an alternative to my wife's fine hair. I know my hair will pass a HHT much easier than hers but mine is in short supply.


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## Doug

Bess edge yet. Thought I’d give this a try since I’ve only achieved hair whittling edges. Was able to get a hair popping edge. Jki permasoaked 2000, 6000, coticule and stropped on kangaroo leather.


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## stringer

So I used my "scary little cleaver", as my wife has dubbed it, for all dinner prep since I sharpened it. Including splitting chicken carcasses and chopping hard squash and butchering pork loins. The edge is still pretty good. Starting to get a little hesitant on the push cut. Definitely past the point where I would normally do some sort of strop or touchup. It has been fun but I'm ready to put it to a rest for awhile and go back to my gyutos.

Two last videos for fun.

Pineapple salsa and cabbage slaw


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## jwthaparc

stringer said:


> So I used my "scary little cleaver", as my wife has dubbed it, for all dinner prep since I sharpened it. Including splitting chicken carcasses and chopping hard squash and butchering pork loins. The edge is still pretty good. Starting to get a little hesitant on the push cut. Definitely past the point where I would normally do some sort of strop or touchup. It has been fun but I'm ready to put it to a rest for awhile and go back to my gyutos.
> 
> Two last videos for fun.
> 
> Pineapple salsa and cabbage slaw



These were so satisfying to watch for some reason.

Edit: I like a bit more onion in my pico de gallo. Especially if I'm doing mango, or pineapple pico to balance it. to each there own though.


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## cotedupy

So earlier this evening my wife picked up our Blenheim Forge Nakiri and started hacking into a piece of _frozen_ beef... "This one's alright to use for this, yeah?"

Luckily I shouted quickly and loudly enough that no actual damage was done, in fact it was still reasonably sharp (I'd sharpened it on a slate a couple of days previously). So I thought I'd give a go on my posh Maruoyama to tidy it up. Seemed pretty good after a couple of mins, so I thought I'd try the hair thing... And it worked! Afraid I only have pictorial rather than video evidence:


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## big_adventure

cotedupy said:


> So earlier this evening my wife picked up our Blenheim Forge Nakiri and started hacking into a piece of _frozen_ beef... "This one's alright to use for this, yeah?"
> 
> Luckily I shouted quickly and loudly enough that no actual damage was done, in fact it was still reasonably sharp (I'd sharpened it on a slate a couple of days previously). So I thought I'd give a go on my posh Maruoyama to tidy it up. Seemed pretty good after a couple of mins, so I thought I'd try the hair thing... And it worked! Afraid I only have pictorial rather than video evidence:
> 
> View attachment 116881



Nice work on both the save and the sharpen! Quel succès !


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## cotedupy

big_adventure said:


> Nice work on both the save and the sharpen! Quel succès !



Merci!


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## jwthaparc

I've been getting quite good results lately, and I feel I can thank this thread for it. One thing I will add though. Is I did this with stropping with green compound following all of these stones. 

HHT following the dmt coarse (about 325 grit)





HHT following the dmt fine (if I had to guess about 600 grit)





And just now after the green brick if joy. It was violining after the stone, and would split, and cut hairs after stropping


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## Kawa

February the 151th: finally succeeded 

I was close with my own knives for a while. My chesthair catched into the edge and when i pulled or dragged a bit, the hair would split or cut in half. So not really a hht.

Today I sharpenend my newest knife for the first time, Yoshikane bunka in shirogami2 steel. Bester 1200 -> Kitayama 8000 -> stropped on firm leather with 0,5 micron spray. My chesthair popped easily when hitting the edge. I borrowed some hair of the couch from my wife (much thinner then my own chesthair) and these do also cut when I hit the edge with a little tap. 


I've been focussing much more on proper deburring lately. It took me a while to stop ruining edges when doing an edge leading stroke from heel to tip in one complete motion (I sharpen in sections like most of us do, not in a complete motion). Using a flashlight (put the light on the spine, aimed towards the edge) to shine on the edge showed me the edge wasnt always clean, even though I couldnt feel burr anymore. You can easily see burr remnants this way, much easier then feeling.


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## captaincaed

That's a clever trick, I'm going to give that a try


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## Kawa

captaincaed said:


> That's a clever trick, I'm going to give that a try



I've read it around here somewhere, but only once. Most of the tips/suggestions you see more often in muliple threads, but not this one?

Because the light is flat on the side of the knife, the remaining burr will light up like you hit a wall.
It's nice to see that you can have a clean part for like a few cm, then you have a few cm of burr on that side and the rest is clean again. Very much noticable!


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## Delat

OMG finally achieved this feat! I was just refreshing the edge on this little petty on an SG4k and figured what the hell (I’d long since given up). Sharpened at my usual 15 dps and stropped on leather with green compound.


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## cotedupy

After seeing this thread again this evening I thought I'd give it another go for fun. On the few previous occasions it's worked for me it wasn't top level - I kinda had to drag the hair along the edge a bit til it caught and then cut, not just resting it on and falling apart. So I was trying for that...

No dice.

I concentrated more, and stropped as best I could; a fresh piece of newspaper, hot off the press and flat as a pancake. I was bringing my A-game...

Nada.

I gave up and reverted to stropping how I usually do - on my sleeve...

Bingo! Popping hairs happily. How peculiar.

Is this particular brand of cotton jersey the Holy Grail of edge refinement? Or am I just incredibly bad at regular stropping? Who knows. But cold, hard, objective, empiricism leads me to believe that I am indeed wearing a magic jumper.


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## captaincaed

I tried stropping razors on only flat leather for a while, both clean, loaded with 1m diamond and green compound. Nada. Throw a linen strop in first? Magic. I think a little texture helps quite a bit. Feel like I'm reinventing what B&B had known all along. Derp.


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## jwthaparc

I can say this thread really did a lot for my sharpening game. Thanks to this thread, I'm able to pretty reliably get a hair splitting (not popping but still) edge on my dmt fine (about 600 grit) followed by stropping with compound, and semi reliably using clean leather. With compound I've even been able to whittle hair after my dmt coarse, or fine india. Not to mention my king 1200, or other stones in the range (followed by stropping). 

I know this thread was intended to get us to straight up pop hairs with a mid grit stone, but I'm pretty content with the hair whittling results I'm getting. If I really want to pop a hair I'll go up to my 4,5, or 8k followed by 1, then .5 micron diamond spray.


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## cotedupy

jwthaparc said:


> I can say this thread really did a lot for my sharpening game. Thanks to this thread, I'm able to pretty reliably get a hair splitting (not popping but still) edge on my dmt fine (about 600 grit) followed by stropping with compound, and semi reliably using clean leather. With compound I've even been able to whittle hair after my dmt coarse, or fine india. Not to mention my king 1200, or other stones in the range (followed by stropping).
> 
> I know this thread was intended to get us to straight up pop hairs with a mid grit stone, but I'm pretty content with the hair whittling results I'm getting. If I really want to pop a hair I'll go up to my 4,5, or 8k followed by 1, then .5 micron diamond spray.



Definitely - leaving aside whether such an edge is actually useful - just the act of trying to get there has certainly given me a greater understanding of geometry, deburring and how stone progressions work .


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## Desert Rat

I don't have much in the way of mid grit stones. I keep thinking I will get a synthetic water stone and I find another natural instead.
Going to try a hindostan to washita progression. Probably won't get there but I'm going to try....


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## cotedupy

Desert Rat said:


> I don't have much in the way of mid grit stones. I keep thinking I will get a synthetic water stone and I find another natural instead.
> Going to try a hindostan to washita progression. Probably won't get there but I'm going to try....



I've been using my large Hindostan a bit recently - really nice stone and surprisingly fine - I'd guess around 4k.

I imagine that a harder Washita that's a bit worn in / burnished might work. Mine's a bit softer I think and I tend to keep the surface relatively fresh, but might have to try sometime if you have success. (If you don't then I'm pretty certain there'd be zero hope for my abilities!)


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## captaincaed

jwthaparc said:


> I can say this thread really did a lot for my sharpening game. Thanks to this thread, I'm able to pretty reliably get a hair splitting (not popping but still) edge on my dmt fine (about 600 grit) followed by stropping with compound, and semi reliably using clean leather. With compound I've even been able to whittle hair after my dmt coarse, or fine india. Not to mention my king 1200, or other stones in the range (followed by stropping).
> 
> I know this thread was intended to get us to straight up pop hairs with a mid grit stone, but I'm pretty content with the hair whittling results I'm getting. If I really want to pop a hair I'll go up to my 4,5, or 8k followed by 1, then .5 micron diamond spray.


Amen. This was a little "kick my own butt to improve" project, I'm super happy it's been motivating for you as well.


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## captaincaed

Speaking of nattys, I'm going shale hunting in the back woods this weekend. Have no idea what I'm looking for, but I hope to find at least one interesting thing to try.


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## Desert Rat

cotedupy said:


> I've been using my large Hindostan a bit recently - really nice stone and surprisingly fine - I'd guess around 4k.
> 
> I imagine that a harder Washita that's a bit worn in / burnished might work. Mine's a bit softer I think and I tend to keep the surface relatively fresh, but might have to try sometime if you have success. (If you don't then I'm pretty certain there'd be zero hope for my abilities!)


I tried with three different pocket knifes and didn't get close. I have taken razors to the lower end of a HHT off of a Washita before though so I think it can be done.
You do more knife sharpening than I do so I suspect your better at then me, give it a go.


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## jwthaparc

Desert Rat said:


> I don't have much in the way of mid grit stones. I keep thinking I will get a synthetic water stone and I find another natural instead.
> Going to try a hindostan to washita progression. Probably won't get there but I'm going to try....


I can say that mid grit, and low grit naturals just don't touch the speed of synthetics. I love my aoto and hard ark, they're great to finish on. I just would hate to have to do any real work with those though.


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## cotedupy

Desert Rat said:


> I tried with three different pocket knifes and didn't get close. I have taken razors to the lower end of a HHT off of a Washita before though so I think it can be done.
> You do more knife sharpening than I do so I suspect your better at then me, give it a go.



Yes, perhaps greater quantity, though I wouldn't guarantee quality . And I certainly don't have as much experience with Washitas! Though it'll be fun to try, will update if I get anywhere...


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## cotedupy

Desert Rat said:


> I tried with three different pocket knifes and didn't get close. I have taken razors to the lower end of a HHT off of a Washita before though so I think it can be done.
> You do more knife sharpening than I do so I suspect your better at then me, give it a go.



My Washita is still out on loan atm, but I did it off a Turkish last night, which finishes pretty similarly.

It felt a bit like cheating though... I was using the same knife as in the picture above, which I had thinned extensively. It was too thin / fine really, so I sharpened a more pronounced secondary/micro bevel into it on a King 1200 and then the Turkish. The issue, which I imagine will be the same with a Washita, is that they leave seemingly quite aggressive edges for something relatively fine, so it took a lot of jumper stropping to get the knife to the stage where it'd cut a hair being pulled across it (not popping immediately anymore). Still I think I probably now have a sturdier edge that will hold up properly in use.


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## stringer

cotedupy said:


> My Washita is still out on loan atm, but I did it off a Turkish last night, which finishes pretty similarly.
> 
> It felt a bit like cheating though... I was using the same knife as in the picture above, which I had thinned extensively. It was too thin / fine really, so I sharpened a more pronounced secondary/micro bevel into it on a King 1200 and then the Turkish. The issue, which I imagine will be the same with a Washita, is that they leave seemingly quite aggressive edges for something relatively fine, so it took a lot of jumper stropping to get the knife to the stage where it'd cut a hair being pulled across it (not popping immediately anymore). Still I think I probably now have a sturdier edge that will hold up properly in use.
> 
> View attachment 136867



I tried my Turkish with some knives. I had really only tried it with razors in the past. And while I wasn't able to split any hairs, I'm much more impressed with the knife edges it creates than the razor edges I remember.


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## cotedupy

stringer said:


> I tried my Turkish with some knives. I had really only tried it with razors in the past. And while I wasn't able to split any hairs, I'm much more impressed with the knife edges it creates than the razor edges I remember.
> 
> View attachment 137140



Ah I remember you saying a while back you didn't think much of it, which surprised me, but makes more sense now. Mine leaves pretty much my favourite edge for a knife of all the things I have. But it'd be much too grabby for a razor. I have another which is a bit slower and finer, but I still wouldn't use for razors I don't think.

(Also strong recommend for using with oil rather than water.)


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## Desert Rat

How does the currently mined Turkish compare to the vintage? Anyone have both?


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## cotedupy

Desert Rat said:


> How does the currently mined Turkish compare to the vintage? Anyone have both?



I do (as of a few days ago). I'm going to do post with a proper in-depth comparison in the next day or two. Want to wait for that, or have a spoiler now...?


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## Desert Rat

cotedupy said:


> I do (as of a few days ago). I'm going to do post with a proper in-depth comparison in the next day or two. Want to wait for that, or have a spoiler now...?


I have the patience to wait, never in a hurry for anything these days.


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