# Which knife...?



## MaggieG (Jun 19, 2017)

FYI- I am very open to guidance and recommendations.

LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chef &/or Utility Knife to start

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese: Shun D, my Henckels handles are uncomfortable.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
~6"

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
Absolute is $400, prefer less



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing, chopping, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, +/- trimming meats

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Shun Classic

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch, finger

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Rock, push cut, slice

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Layered/Damascus

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
Example-D handle, like my Shun- fits my small hand. Good balance,

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Want to use it right out of the box, smooth chopping, push-cutting, slicing, and much better food release than I have now.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
At least until I learn how to sharpen a knife by hand.



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes, wood.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes, technically. Trizor 15
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes



SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
Clearance is not an issue, I have small hands. My shoulders feel the work of lifting the knife so high. Perhaps a smaller distance from edge to spine would help??? I'm interested in anything that will be more efficient and less work. I am short, counters are high, cutting board is thick, and both rotator cuffs are crap. Anything that reduces the effort I expend is helpful. I'm willing to invest in my tools and definitely want to learn how to sharpen a knife properly. The Chef's Choice Trizor doesn't seem to be as helpful as the previous iterations I had for Western and Japanese blades.


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## fujiyama (Jun 20, 2017)

My quick recommendation would be a Harukaze AS 180mm Gyuto (it has a stainless cladding) or Takamura Migaki 180mm Gyuto. 

Neither have a damascus finish.. look into the Takamura Uchigumo 180mm Gyuto. 

Consider selling the Trizor and buying a couple Japanese whetstones. 

Wooden cutting boards should be end grain; cleaned and oiled regularly.


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## daveb (Jun 20, 2017)

Greets,

I'm going to take your "very open to suggestions" literally and offer the following thots. Worth at least twice what you pay for them.

You understand that a dammy finish at the 400 and under price point is pure cosmetic? No performance increase. No food release benefit. It will add cost to the knife without adding any value. Nothing wrong with going for the look but understand that's all it is. Suggest that you reconsider this requirement and if you've gotta have it then go for it. If it's a "want to have" pls note as such"


The "D" handle on the Shun classic is small, I'm not and it feels comfortable to me. The more common octagon handle is also comfortable and will open up your choices more. Suggest you look at either. Some of the vendors here offer rehandling services and may well put a smaller than standard handle on it for you.

What Shun calls a Utility, knife people call a Petty. American housewives don't know Petty but they know Utility is good. The Shun Classic Utility is a 150mm Petty. Nice knife. Tenderloin skinning machine. With small hands there's really no reason to replace it - that and the 3.5" parer are Shuns that I actually like.

The "rocking" cutting motion favored by Western cooks is very compatible with Western (read German) knives with pronounced bellies along the edge. Not so compatible with the flatter Japanese knives. A Jknife will have enough rock to mince herbs but I would not rock carrots or similar veg. And rocking will put the thinner, harder, less flexible blade at risk of chipping. Push cutting is much more compatible with Jknives.

Most if not all of the knives that will be suggested here will be sharpened for you upon request and will come out of the box ready to go. We will largely suggest retailers that do this as a matter of course. You won't see many recs for Amazon, WS, SLT or Wally Mart.

To replace a 6" knife with a similar size you'll be looking at 180mm or 210mm. Note that the 210 Jknife will likely be lighter than a 6" Shun and better balanced for better handling. There will also be more choices in the 210 knives than in the 180s. Suggest you focus on 210 but if you see a 180 that appeals then you may want to go for it.

Lose the Trizor Blade Eating Model 2.0 tomorrow. As soon as the Goodwill opens. Bury it in the backyard if necc.

Finally will suggest that you spend some time perusing the offerings of our sponsoring vendors. They are top notch or they wouldn't be here.

I'll come back and suggest some specific knives. I'm sure others will join in as well.

Have fun shopping.


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## MaggieG (Jun 20, 2017)

Ahh, but which Japanese whetstones? I was trying to figure that out since since getting the Trizor, I know I could learn to do a better job. Ended up on Jnat site looking at Ohira Suita Lv 3,5. A pittance @ $1,873.75. Definitely need help w stones. I know nothing. But at least I know I know nothing.&#128522; I'll oil my end-grain boards more often.


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## MaggieG (Jun 20, 2017)

Thanks. I meant it. l appreciate the help/education.

Don't want a pretty only. Just curious, what's the entry fee for a real Damascus?
I'm very open to a different handle for comfort.
I'm frustrated w my chef & parer after using the Trizor. Definitely made them worse. Saw a WS sale on Shuns and was interested in the "Knife of the Year" Hikaris. I have the Classic parer, chef knife, & slicer. Figured the 6" utility/ petty knife would be the narrower blade I think I need. Research took so long, I missed the sale.
I've been morphing to push-cut in response to effort required. I can learn not to rock at all.
Noted review criteria of "sharpness out of the box". Thought better knives possibly shipped not completely sharpened. 

The 210 sounds like the size I'm looking for- big enough to do the job and smaller than my chef knife. Might make it easier to transition to a push-cut only style.
Approved vendor/ list member sounds much better for sharpening & buying new/used knife than what I have here. 
Re: learning to sharpen- Any Youtube video suggestions, who to follow?
Suggestions on stone sets will be appreciated. I can learn by sharpening "garden" knives. Can't make them worse&#128516;
Thanks,
Maggie


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## fujiyama (Jun 20, 2017)

Ohira Suita seems legendary but starting on more affordable synthetic stones is a better idea. Natural stones are another world. I recommend looking into Naniwa Professional, Shapton Glass, Gesshin, & King. 

It's all subjective but here's my ideal grits: 

Shapton 500 / 2000 / 8000
Naniwa 400 / 1000 / 3000
Gesshin 500 / 2000 / 4000
King 1200 / 6000

A set of whetstones should last a lifetime; do some research and you'll only buy it once. Don't bother with 'starter' stones. Stones are available in sets which can save you money, but sometimes the set doesn't include your ideal grits so shop around because retailer offers can differ. If you can't find a set, build your own by purchasing individual stones - it'll be worth the few extra dollars. I suggest an Atoma diamond plate to flatten your stones and a leather strop.

Being open to 210 gyutos gives you plenty more options! Good luck on your journey!


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## Mucho Bocho (Jun 20, 2017)

Great advise Fuiji but I think you're making Maggies head spin. She's got to learn the alphabet before being able to read. 

Maggie, Please understand, most of the members on this board are passionate knife lovers, collectors/experts/makers and users. Some think nothing of owning using and selling $1K knives all day long. they have annual gatherings all across the world, whole heartedly celebrating their love of Kitchen Cutlery and everything that goes with it. They stand at their sinks for hours rubbing a piece of steel on a rock--and love doing it. Their called Knife-nuts, and I consider myself one of them. Just wanted to put that into perspective whom your seeking advise from. 

Here is my advise, that worth just about as much as Dave's. 

You need to educate yourself before spending any money. I'd suggest you find a mentor/sensei that understand where you are in your knife acquisition journey. For many of us here, his name is Jon Brodia at Japanese Knife Imports. 

He's a member of this forum but more importantly is open to discussing your needs over the phone. He can provide you with a knife, a stone and the advise to get the best out of both of them.

Review Jon's sharpening play list. Over the years, I've spent hundred of hours watching them and practicing. Do exactly what he says and do nothing else. 

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/pages/about-knife-care

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/blogs/media

Here's the thing, forget what you know, think you know, and want to know about knives. There are a bewildering combination of knife styles and stones out there and just buying without educating yourself is wasting $. Call Jon and get his FB or roll the dice. Its your $.

I've been looking to buy a hand gun for home protection for over a year now. My wife and I have taken courses, tried lots of models and viewed hundreds of hours youtube reviews and such. I still haven't pulled the trigger, but I'm getting close. Guess sometimes you can get wiser and older at the same time. 

Oh, Welcome to the forum!


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## MaggieG (Jun 20, 2017)

"I think you're making Maggies head spin."

&#129315;Actually, I do that all by myself! That's how I ended up looking at that 2K Jnat Suita stone- before I ever asked a question here. 

"Maggie, Please understand, most of the members on this board are passionate knife lovers, collectors/experts/makers and users. .....Just wanted to put that into perspective whom your seeking advise from."

Knife Geeks! Precisely why I'm here&#128522; I appreciate the responses. 

"Here is my advise,......You need to educate yourself before spending any money. I'd suggest you find a mentor/sensei that understand where you are in your knife acquisition journey. For many of us here, his name is Jon Brodia at Japanese Knife Imports. 

He's.....open to discussing your needs over the phone. He can provide you with a knife, a stone and the advise to get the best out of both of them.

Review Jon's sharpening play list. Over the years, I've spent hundred of hours watching them and practicing. Do exactly what he says and do nothing else. 

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/pages/about-knife-care

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/blogs/media

Here's the thing, forget what you know, think you know, and want to know about knives. There are a bewildering combination of knife styles and stones out there and just buying without educating yourself is wasting $. Call Jon and get his FB or roll the dice. Its your $."

Thanks, that's exactly the kind of integrated mentoring I need to start. I appreciate the links too. 

"I've been looking to buy a hand gun for home protection for over a year now. My wife and I have taken courses, tried lots of models and viewed hundreds of hours youtube reviews and such."

Exactly. I understand completely. Took me a while to find one that met my needs as far as fit, balance, reliability, and power. The training was much longer and intense, staying competent is an ongoing journey. Definitely some parallels.

"Oh, Welcome to the forum!"

Thank you. I do appreciate the help. Will definitely follow up w Jon and also stick around to learn more.&#128522;

Maggie


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## Panamapeet (Jun 20, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Great advise Fuiji but I think you're making Maggies head spin. She's got to learn the alphabet before being able to read.
> 
> Maggie, Please understand, most of the members on this board are passionate knife lovers, collectors/experts/makers and users. Some think nothing of owning using and selling $1K knives all day long. they have annual gatherings all across the world, whole heartedly celebrating their love of Kitchen Cutlery and everything that goes with it. They stand at their sinks for hours rubbing a piece of steel on a rock--and love doing it. Their called Knife-nuts, and I consider myself one of them. Just wanted to put that into perspective whom your seeking advise from.
> 
> ...



This is some solid advice. Don't get too intimidated by the vast amount of information available and just try too learn


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## MaggieG (Jun 20, 2017)

&#128522;&#128579;


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## daveb (Jun 20, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> I've been looking to buy a hand gun for home protection for over a year now. My wife and I have taken courses, tried lots of models and viewed hundreds of hours youtube reviews and such. I still haven't pulled the trigger, but I'm getting close. Guess sometimes you can get wiser and older at the same time.



Damn Dennis, I thought about a hand gun for maybe 30 min, bought a Glock, and was not late to dinner. A couple more have followed me home but my favorite still holds 13 rounds of "go rob someone else".


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## JaVa (Jun 20, 2017)

The Takamura Migaki (red handle) really seems like a perfect fit. Thin, light, small well made handle, the blades not too tall, modern impeccably treated steel, very good edge retention, not too difficult to sharpen and really cuts like a dream. if you feel the 210 could be pushing it, it can be found in 180 size too. I'd recommend checking that out. 

If you want a semi budget option for nice synthetic stones to go with the Takamura, Sigma select II 1000/6000 grit combo stone does a nice job for a reasonable price.

Although calling Jon @ JKI is never a bad idea and the JKI stones are definitely some of the best out there.


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## foody518 (Jun 20, 2017)

Based on my experience with Takamura gyuto and petty, wouldn't recommend to someone who doesn't already sharpen as the initial edge is quite acute and brittle. Especially for someone coming from a rocking profile of a Shun Classic.

The flatter, lower tip profiles of the knives being recommended here will be nicer for your relative height to your cutting surface and board (coming from another shorter person)

Something like the Gesshin Stainless Wa Handle 210mm could be a great knife to start out with. Good looking grind, nice fit and finish, and a more forgiving steel.


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## MaggieG (Jun 20, 2017)

Very nice! No real belly at all to have to stand on my toes for. The sintered edge is something that attracted me to the Hikari. 
Foody518, I like the octagonal handle, looks comfy. Do they spin at all when working w/ greasy food? I'm thinking of what it's like slicing Cuban roast pork. You are very right about my inability to sharpen if I need to. Somewhere I caught some up close photos of the chipping that can happen to that kind of blade improperly used. Looked like they'd been cutting rocks w it. ?Used as a boning knife? Or would it have to be dropped?
Dave B suggested I forget everything I know about knife sharpening. No problem there, I know nothing-yet&#128522;
As far as I understand so far, I'd like a clad knife w a CPM edge soon. If I initially have to send it out to be sharpened, so be it. I'm that frustrated w what the Trizor did to my knives. I can continue using my Euro knives for bony meats.
I checked out Jon's site and his YouTube page. I'll get a sharpening set & watch the videos. I can practice on my garden knives until I'm worthy of food knives&#128522;


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## foody518 (Jun 21, 2017)

MaggieG - not sure about spinning handles - haven't ever had that issue, but I don't work much with greasy ingredients on the board and tend to pinch/pointer grip (and keep the knife hand clean)

I put a tiny microbevel on a Takamura I sent off to a family member and it got small but visible chips within the weekend, home use, not abusive technique relative to probably a typical decent home cook... Had to take off more steel and really put a much more conservative edge on it after that. It's definitely a great cutter but as mentioned previously, not keen on recommending it to be used OOTB

If you wanna really step it up, you could take a look at Gesshin Kagero and request initial sharpening from JKI

Dunno your location, but you might check if you have a Japanese Knife retailer or good sharpener nearby


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## MaggieG (Jun 21, 2017)

YIKES! A weekend!? Sounds like a good knife at this point would end up the same place as a Maserati in my hands. 
I live in Jacksonville, Fl. The best professional knife sharpener locally and apparently in all of N. Fl. uses a belt for kitchen knives. Never heard of that. It's tools and shears here. I used to pay the Sushi Chefs at our favorite restaurant to sharpen my Shuns but management changed. He disallowed it even though it wasn't on company time. 
Clearly, I'm not ready for a good knife. I'll cease and desist torquing & rock chopping and send them to Jon to sharpen. Perhaps he can reduce the bellies of the chef knives too. Properly sharpened, they will definitely be more useful than they are now. 
Meanwhile, I can watch his videos, buy whatever stone he says, study my butt off, practice on my garden knives, and learn everything I can on KKF.
My ideas and desires usually get way ahead of my abilities. If I can learn from a book to do drywall flawless enough to pass a light test, I can learn this. It just won't be tomorrow. Dammit!&#129315;


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## Mucho Bocho (Jun 21, 2017)

Maggie you've got a great attitude toward this. But give yourself some credit. You've learned many skills in life that you've had to work at to become better. This is just another one of those but enjoy the process. However most folks on this forum would suggest that you get a decent carbon steel knife to practice on


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## foody518 (Jun 21, 2017)

MaggieG - I think something like Gesshin Stainless 210mm wa handle would still work as a good buy now. Nice looking grind and a tougher, more chip resistant steel treatment. The Takamura experience was out of the norm for knives I've gifted...usually go with something not so stupid thin and usually a more forgiving steel.
You'd still have a technique adjustment going from your current knives to something like that on account of the difference in profiles and tip placement and probably thickness/thinness of grind. 

Darn, I'm bad at Florida geography. Probably a few folks in Pensacola who would sharpen on stones, no clue who's in Jacksonville.


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## MaggieG (Jun 21, 2017)

@MB. Thank you. This is the universe teaching me patience and presence. The sharpening motions seem very meditative to me. I dont understand- are you saying practice on a carbon knife instead of my "demoted to garden" knives? If so, how would it differ and what is the advantage?


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## K813zra (Jun 21, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> @MB. Thank you&#128522; This is the universe teaching me patience and presence. The sharpening motions seem very meditative to me. I dont understand- are you saying practice on a carbon knife instead of my "demoted to garden" knives? If so, how would it differ and what is the advantage?



I don't know that you have to go carbon but a decent stainless knife at the very least is a plus when it comes to sharpening practice. To answer your question, you will be able to raise and identify a burr with much less work on carbon. Removing that burr is a lot easier as well. I say less work and not easier because the reality is that it is simply less time consuming. I suppose that could translate to ease, though. 

The thing with cheap stainless knives is that they are often soft and thick behind the edge. This makes removing steel harder and takes a lot longer to get results. On the other hand you have steels such as VG-10, in most makers heat treat, which are quite cumbersome to deburr. It isn't a bad steel it is just not the best steel to practice on as it will lead to frustration. 

There are very cheap options out there but they may not give you practice with the profile you are used to. Old Hickory knives are some 10xx carbon steel and around $15. You can sharpen them up in no time. Sticking in the realm of Japanese you can go with Tojiro Shirogami, that is, were you to want a dedicated knife for sharpening practice. A lot of fellows do not like these knives but that is besides the point, they sharpen up easily and you won't care if you mess them up on the stones. Regardless, I can not see you doing any damage that is irreversible. 

For what it is worth, that is what I have to add but I am still in the fledgling stage myself.


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## MaggieG (Jun 21, 2017)

@foody518.
There is no one here. This is Jacksonville. Thats why the sushi chefs were sharpening my knives. We came to fill a family need. We are preparing to move in a year or so. &#128522;&#128516;&#128579;&#129419;


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## MaggieG (Jun 21, 2017)

How do I make the reply window bigger?! It's only 2 lines tall on my screen so I don't realize how much unnecessary train of thought is in there and I have to edit it after it's posted. I and Im sure everyone who doesn't have time to read War & Peace will be very grateful&#128516;


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## MaggieG (Jun 21, 2017)

@K813zra"Regardless, I can not see you doing any damage that is irreversible."
You underestimate me good person!&#129315;
Seriously, thank you for the information. I'll definitely look into that. Wouldn't hurt to have at least one, though cheap, carbon knife.


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## K813zra (Jun 21, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> How do I make the reply window bigger?! It's only 2 lines tall on my screen so I don't realize how much unnecessary train of thought is in there and I have to edit it after it's posted. I and Im sure everyone who doesn't have time to read War & Peace will be very grateful&#128516;



Click "go advanced" under the text window.


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## MaggieG (Jun 21, 2017)

Thank you so much!


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## Nemo (Jun 21, 2017)

I moved from Edgepro sharpening to freehand sharpening abbout 9 months ago. It's really not anywhere near as intimidating as I feared. Look at Jon's videos a few times. The way he holds the knife helps you maintain the angle. Give it a go.

FWIW, i sharpen with Naniwa Chosera/pro stones.

I do find carbon knives the easiest to sharpen and deburr. PM stainless (sg2/r2, srs1t and hap40) is generally not much harder (assuming a good HT). Most semistainless is also pretty easy. I've sharpened AUS8 (low end Japanese stainless) without difficulty, but never sharpened VG10 (which is reputed to be difficult to deburr in some HTs) or ginsanko (which isn't).
Aebl is a Swedish stainless, reputed to be very easy to sharpen (when well HT'd) but I havent sharpened my only Aebl knife yet.

Are you seeing a pattern with the HT? - make sure you buy a knife from a reputable knifemaker, preferably from a reputable vendor or direct from the maker) 

Western stainless is quite a bit harder to sharpen and especially deburr. The cheaper it is the harder it is to sharpen and deburr in general.

Happy to explain why if it matters to you.


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## MaggieG (Jun 21, 2017)

Yes, thank you. Why always helps. So, per your example, the Proper HT makes edges easier to sharpen and deburr. What defines a good HT and does each particular HT have a "brand" name?


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jun 21, 2017)

Hi Maggie, as others said, call Jon (JKI). 

Anyway, if you still want a suggestion before talking to Jon, i would go with the Gengetsu 210mm semi-stainless:

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...oducts/gengetsu-210mm-semi-stainless-wa-gyuto

I haven't used the semi-stainless one, only the stainless clad white #2 and i love it. I found it specially great to dice onions.


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## foody518 (Jun 21, 2017)

HT is heat treatment


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## K813zra (Jun 21, 2017)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Hi Maggie, as others said, call Jon (JKI).
> 
> Anyway, if you still want a suggestion before talking to Jon, i would go with the Gengetsu 210mm semi-stainless:
> 
> ...



I think any Gesshin (or any product from Jon) is a good one. Though, I agree that calling Jon is best. I enjoy my W#2 Ginga and my wife loves her SS Ginga. Onions almost dice themselves.

Jon does a great job of listening to what you have to say and then asking questions before suggesting different knives to you. He has patience and seems to rather enjoy talking knives/stones with his customers.


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## daveb (Jun 21, 2017)

I was thinking either the Gesshin Ginga or Gengetsu would be a game changer for you. I like the laser because it would be easiest to maintain sharp. Another laser that merits consideration is the Tadasuna INOX from A Frames Tokyo, and a more mid weight is Itinomonn from Japanese Natural Stones. Free hand sharpening can be a little intimidating at first but it gets comfortable quickly.

There are a few members here from the sunshine (yeah right) state. Tampa, Orlando, Pens, West Palm and I think there's one in Gainesville. Might be worthwhile to reach out for a loaner knife so that you can try a couple.


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## MaggieG (Jun 22, 2017)

@Marcelo- the onions don't stick to the blade?


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## MaggieG (Jun 22, 2017)

@Daveb
So many knives, so little knowledge&#128514;! The sharpening is beginning to seem the simplest (not necessarily the easiest), most Zen of it all. I'm glad I made contact w Jon as you, and pretty much everyone else, suggested.


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## Nemo (Jun 22, 2017)

Sorry, "HT" is "heat treatment". Basically, the knife maker gets raw steel from the factory. (s)he needs to heat it up and then cool it down in specific ways to change the microscopic structure (and atomic level crystalline structure) of the steel into a structure that is favourable for an edged tool. Hammering (forging) the steel can also help with this. A good HT will often contain a lot of steps at precisely controlled temperatures for precisely controlled durations. On the other hand, a lot of smiths apparently do HT by "eye". Some of these will be good HT but some may not. You really need to go by a smith's reputation for HT.

The aspects of the steel that are affected by the HT are (these aspects are also somewhat affected by the chemical composition of the steel being used, but a good HT on an ordinary steel is much better than a poor HT on a great steel):
1) The grain structure and grain size.
2) The type of iron carbide alloy in the grain (for almost all knifes, the maker looks to maximise the iron carbide called "martensite" in the steel, as this is the hardest iron carbide).
3) It may also affect the type and distribution of other carbides (such as Cr carbides) in the steel.

The upshot is that a poor HT will yield:
1) Large grain size in the steel. So it is difficult to sharpen the steel to a fine edge.
2) Soft steel. So the burr tends to bend rather than snap off. Also won't hold an edge as long.

The reason that simple carbon steels are easier to sharpen is that the don't have lots of alloyed carbides (Cr, Va, Mo and W are probably the commonest, Cr being the element responsible for corrosion resistance) embedded in the steel matrix. During sharpening, these carbides can be pulled out if the edge is too acute ("carbide pull out"), resulting in loss of sharpness. Also, the carbides increase the steel's abrasion resistance, which means that metal is removed more slowly while sharpening.

But carbides can also increase both the hardness and the wear resistance of the steel, so they hold an edge longer. So in general, simple steels get sharper and are easier to sharpen while alloyed steels stay sharp longer. Some alloyed steels are made with a "powder metallurgy" (PM) technique which results in smaller grain size and possibly smaller carbide size. It's not quite the best of both worlds, but they are in general easier to sharpen than non-PM alloys yet retain the hardness and wear resistance of alloyed steels.

Western stainless (such as Krupps, which you'll find in Wustof and many other Western knives) Is much softer than Japanese stainless because it has less carbon in it, so makes less martensite. It also has a lot or Cr and forms very large Cr carbides. These tend to form a tenacious burr that just bends from side to side rather than snapping off. The more expensive versions are forged, so have a smallish grain size, less expensive versions (including I think Victorinox) aren't, so the grain size is probably larger. Cheaper Western knives (I'm thinking supermarket knives) probably have even less appropriate alloys with worse HTs, resulting in worse sharpening properties.


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## Matus (Jun 22, 2017)

I would only comment on the counter-top height. If you feel it is taller than you find comfortable, then to remedy that partially you should be looking for a knife that has a relative flat blade, so that when you are using the tip, you do not have to raise the heel too high to get a proper angle between the cutting edge and the cutting board. I am also not too tall, but our counter-top is - and I realised that I prefer flatter blades (my gyuto is Munetoshi 240 currently). 

Along the lines above I would advice that you have a look at some bunka knife (or K-tip santoku or similar) as those usually have flatter profiles. As a matter of example look at Kotetsu knives, or bunka from Masakage or similar. Or even a custom knife. Carter has knives along those lines too (though not stainless, some are stainless clad though)


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## MaggieG (Jun 22, 2017)

[/QUOTE]
QUOTE=Matus;494913]... If you feel it is taller than you find comfortable, then to remedy that partially you should be looking for a knife that has a relative flat blade, so that when you are using the tip, you do not have to raise the heel too high to get a proper angle between the cutting edge and the cutting board.

Thank you Mattus, I didn't have the right words to describe the problem or the potential solution of a flatter blade. Narrow is not the same&#128522;

.....flatter blades (my gyuto is Munetoshi 240 currently).....have a look at some bunka knife (or K-tip santoku or similar) as those usually have flatter profiles.......example look at Kotetsu knives, or bunka from Masakage or similar. Or even a custom knife. Carter has knives along those lines too (though not stainless, some are stainless clad though)[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the examples to look at. That helps.
Maggie


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## foody518 (Jun 22, 2017)

Sometimes I think of it in terms of 'low to the board', referring to the edge as you go along the blade


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 22, 2017)

Maggie, the first _nice_ knife I got was a 240mm Tanaka Blue2 gyuto from James at Knives & Stones (also a vendor here, and also a heckuva great guy). In all honesty, there is 0 I've gained, functionally, from the dozen or so more I've bought - they're nice, and different, but none had anything like the boost over my old crummy Target knives that the Tanaka did. It was easy to sharpen, held an edge well, and could neatly cut everything I needed. All the others have just added fun and enjoyment.

The one thing I did NOT like about that knife was its reactivity - the iron cladding turned orange if you looked at it wrong. Forget "taking care of it", it would be orange by the time I finished cutting a couple of peppers. If you can live with that, it'd be a great knife in 210mm for you. There is a stainless-clad version that won't react like that, but unfortunately it is out of stock at the moment.

http://www.knivesandstones.com/tana...uto-210mm-with-custom-octagonal-ebony-handle/

For another option, my current most-used knife is a Sukenari, and it is fantastic but not a beginner's knife (very hard Blue Super steel, tricky to sharpen). They also have a Ginsanko line, however, and I have no reason to believe the quality is any lower. Ginsanko is a stainless steel, but much nicer than the stainless crummy Target knives are made out of, fine-grained and easy to sharpen. You might like this one.

http://www.knivesandstones.com/sukenari-ginsanko-ginsan-gyuto-210mm/

James sends his knives out with a VERY nice edge. I'd get a 1k/6k combo stone from somewhere (Jon has a very nice one, last I looked), watch lots of videos, and pick a time you have an hour or two to practice, going slowly, maybe with a glass of wine or similar if it helps you relax. I find that stropping on unloaded denim is the quickest, easiest way to deburr, One of those knives, that stone, some videos, and a leg panel of an old pair of jeans will have you wondering how you ever survived with crummy knives.


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## Nemo (Jun 22, 2017)

The Tanaka Ginsanko would also be a good option.


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## foody518 (Jun 22, 2017)

I find mine to be on the curvy side for gyuto... Definitely a preferences thing


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## daveb (Jun 22, 2017)

I like curvy:groucho:

My Tanaka G have a good flat spot to the rear, nice tips (though not the best I have) and a little bit of belly. And I think a little belly is a good thing when transitioning into JKnives from the more classic western profiles. Certainly a winner. Still like a laser better for you.

That's one of the nice things here - you have several choices among good choices. (Unlike our political spectrum but I'll quit before I digress)

Interesting segue on height and counters. A recent move has me with slightly lower than standard counter tops I have "Wellness" mats for the kitchen that I've used forever and like a lot. But they add about an inch of height. Had to store em with new counters. I would guess that they would give you a little height as well as being comfortable.


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## K813zra (Jun 22, 2017)

foody518 said:


> I find mine to be on the curvy side for gyuto... Definitely a preferences thing



Doesn't everyone love curves? :O


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## foody518 (Jun 22, 2017)

I use anti-fatigue mat for the extra lil bit of height. Steel toed boots when I wanna use my Chinese cleavers XD


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## K813zra (Jun 22, 2017)

foody518 said:


> I use anti-fatigue mat for the extra lil bit of height. Steel toed boots when I wanna use my Chinese cleavers XD



That is the third time I have heard that, I am short and will have to give it a try! That said, I wear flip flops so I hope I don't drop a knife...I have dropped a few synthetic stones over the years but never on my foot.


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## daveb (Jun 22, 2017)

I'm getting the Julia Child counter tops next time.


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## MaggieG (Jun 22, 2017)

Thanks Dave. I hadn't thought of the mats. I looked up laser knives- hadn't heard of them before KKF. Do you have recommendations? Found a pic associated w Chef Knives to Go but couldn't upload it and the web page was a busy ad. Pic was along spine to point. Looked wicked. Are they all mostly as I described?


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## K813zra (Jun 22, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> Thanks Dave. I hadn't thought of the mats. I looked up laser knives- hadn't heard of them before KKF. Do you have recommendations? Found a pic associated w Chef Knives to Go but couldn't upload it and the web page was a busy ad. Pic was along spine to point. Looked wicked. Are they all mostly as I described?



I am not Dave, however I do have a few lasers. I love my Gesshin Ginga, I still laugh every time I use it. It just glides through product. I have a Konosuke HD as well that I like near as much but being a carbon love I prefer my Ginga W#2. My wife has a 180mm Ginga western in stainless, which I just recently got her so she would stop stealing my Ginga, and she uses it for everything! 

Typical recommendations are as follows:

Gesshing Ginga
Konosuke
Tadatsuna 
Suisin Inox Honyaki 
Sakai Ysuske
Takamura R2

I don't think you could go wrong with any of them but I am partial to shopping with Jon.


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## daveb (Jun 23, 2017)

I have had and like the GG, and the Suisin IH (Korin). Quite similar though Suisin has bumped their prices a couple times and the GG is more attractive that way. I've a couple other Tads and keep thinking I'll try their Gyuto - just haven't got to it yet. Mine are stainless across the board.


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## MaggieG (Jun 23, 2017)

Nice compact list! Thanks.
Re: shopping, been poking around to kind of get my bearings. I've heard nothing but respect for Jon. He significantly lowered a price on a large, expensive stone after finding a previously undetected defect. I like his ethics.


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## MaggieG (Jun 23, 2017)

Tads??

Never mind. Tadatsuna. Couldnt figure out how to just delete post.


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## Nemo (Jun 23, 2017)

Would people consider the Tanaka R2 to be a laser?


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## Matus (Jun 23, 2017)

The one I had (WA version, 210 mm, 135g or 145 g) was definitely a laser.


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## sharptools (Jun 23, 2017)

Going with your original request and answers with the questionnaire. Some of the Ryusen options JKI seem to be what you're looking for.
You should contact Jon, he's a vendor here and stands by his products. He is incredibly knowledgable and I have never regretted going with his suggestions.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/ryusen


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 23, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Would people consider the Tanaka R2 to be a laser?



It is a most lasery of lasers. It's not one I'd recommend for her though - it's a touch fragile for general use. Earlier this week I had to take a couple of chips out of my wife's...


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## MaggieG (Jun 23, 2017)

Thanks Nemo for the suggestion and Dan for keeping me out of trouble&#128516;


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## MaggieG (Jun 23, 2017)

@Sharptools: I agree. I've started a conversation w him, initially re: sharpening stones.
Waiting for his advice on sharpener and getting input on knives instead of trying to compensate for lack of skill with top of the line tools. Its a character defect. Buying his Ohira Suita and gorgeous purple renge would not have helped me learn to sharpen and I'd likely have ruined the stones.


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## MaggieG (Jun 23, 2017)

I love the shape of these knives:
https://m.facebook.com/JapaneseKnif...479678859/10154064523448860/?type=3&source=44
My thought is the flatter blade in a petty size would fill a hole in my collection.
This blade
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/sample-bontenunryu-150mm-stainless-damascus-petty-1
seems too wide for what I think I need. Also, I don't like the handle at all.
Other than the handle, I'd like your opinion on these knives. He has several Yanagiba I like but by definition, they're too long for me. 

Still trying to work on mincing technique. Having difficulty turning the herbs without making a mess so I can finish w/o resorting to rock-chopping.


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## foody518 (Jun 23, 2017)

[video=youtube;6c4RD5E4vcs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c4RD5E4vcs[/video]

[video=youtube;Jab6ovIU_HI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jab6ovIU_HI[/video]

yanagiba is not an all rounder knife unless you wanna take over for those sushi guys near you


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## MaggieG (Jun 23, 2017)

&#129315;No, I just liked the flatter blade. Those are way to long for me.


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 23, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> @Sharptools: I agree. I've started a conversation w him, initially re: sharpening stones.
> Waiting for his advice on sharpener and getting input on knives instead of trying to compensate for lack of skill with top of the line tools. Its a character defect. Buying his Ohira Suita and gorgeous purple renge would not have helped me learn to sharpen and I'd likely have ruined the stones.



Re: stones, while I wouldn't tell you to drop the money right away, Jon's 1k/6k diamond stone set is the best sharpening money I've spent. They're so fast, and so flat, that that I get a better edge (because it's fast enough that there's less time to introduce a wobble or change angle) in less time, than with any synthetic stone I've tried, let alone natural. It's an "easy button" for sharpening in a way that nothing else I've found is. If I'm feeling fancy I'll use some others for deburring and a finisher (and I might even convince myself it gets a 1% better final edge, or maybe that's placebo), but if I had to use a small stone set, it would be those two and nothing else. They're simply outstanding.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jun 23, 2017)

Dan, I agree with you in every way about Jon's diamond stones except one, recommending these stones to a new sharpener. 

I have the Jon's diamond stones, but the cut so aggressively that, Maggie will chew up her knives in short order. I don't think Jon would recommend them either. Maggie should consider a Gesshin two sided soaking stone maybe a 1/6K combo. That way she can learn how to hold the knife on the stones with much less cutting speed that a Diamond stone. Just my thoughts...


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## MaggieG (Jun 23, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> Re: stones, while I wouldn't tell you to drop the money right away, Jon's 1k/6k diamond stone set is the best sharpening money I've spent. They're so fast, and so flat, that that I get a better edge (because it's fast enough that there's less time to introduce a wobble or change angle) in less time, than with any synthetic stone I've tried, let alone natural. It's an "easy button" for sharpening in a way that nothing else I've found is. If I'm feeling fancy I'll use some others for deburring and a finisher (and I might even convince myself it gets a 1% better final edge, or maybe that's placebo), but if I had to use a small stone set, it would be those two and nothing else. They're simply outstanding.



Thank you for the suggestion. I understand about decreasing the wobble by cutting faster. I tend to go full tilt at most things. I think those would be dangerous to any knives, even the hard to sharpen ones. I could make a wide blade narrower though.&#128514;


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## JBroida (Jun 23, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Dan, I agree with you in every way about Jon's diamond stones except one, recommending these stones to a new sharpener.
> 
> I have the Jon's diamond stones, but the cut so aggressively that, Maggie will chew up her knives in short order. I don't think Jon would recommend them either. Maggie should consider a Gesshin two sided soaking stone maybe a 1/6K combo. That way she can learn how to hold the knife on the stones with much less cutting speed that a Diamond stone. Just my thoughts...



yeah... i usually dont recommend them to new sharpeners


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## MaggieG (Jun 23, 2017)

In one of his videos about stones he was clear about starting w a medium grit. In the description, he said this is a nice start for beginners:
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...bo-stones/products/king-1000-6000-combo-stone


I was also looking at these to have a set with a larger range but it might not be necessary for a long time. I don't know the average duration of the learning curve to become above average but not a master.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co.../products/stone-set-splash-and-go-limited-run

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...s-and-combo-stones/products/gesshin-stone-set

And this:
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...g-accessories/products/stone-holder-with-base

Do I really need a strop set? Would I even be able to tell the difference at this point? I'm biased to get this at a later date.

Any opinions on the cost:benefit of these things? 

Thanks,
Maggie


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## JBroida (Jun 23, 2017)

no, you dont need a strop kit... they can help improve edges, but are far from necessary.


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## MaggieG (Jun 23, 2017)

Thanks. It seems not all carbon knives rust @ the same rate. I definitely don't want one that rusts in between strokes for sure. I was thinking it might increase my ability to find a shorter blade w the narrower width and a flatter blade if I considered some carbon knives. Suggestions on such a knife?


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## foody518 (Jun 23, 2017)

I tend to like the feedback of soakers, and it certainly felt better for beginning sharpening.
Strop kit not necessary, you can always use denim/newspaper/cardboard now as free options. I almost never feel the impulse to do loaded stropping. 
You can be on the road to competent sharpening in a few hours if you find good tutorials (which you have done)

You don't necessarily want a too short (not tall) blade for an all rounder because the grind will thicken more quickly as you reach the spine


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## K813zra (Jun 23, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> Thanks. It seems not all carbon knives rust @ the same rate. I definitely don't want one that rusts in between strokes for sure. I was thinking it might increase my ability to find a shorter blade w the narrower width and a flatter blade if I considered some carbon knives. Suggestions on such a knife?



I've not had an issue with rust. Reactivity on a fresh blade, sure but just keep up with it. I do what Jon suggested to me, wipe the blade with a wet towel and then a dry towel between product change. In fact, the first few uses I do this after every few cuts until a patina sets in and then it is not usually an issue. Particularly with mono carbon and specifically white steel, which I do not find very reactive at all. Just use it at home a few times on a bag of onions or something and you are set. 

Carbon suggestion, I still say Gesshin Ginga. Stainless, carbon it doesn't matter it is simply a great knife for the money. 

As for stropping, I just do it on the stones.


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## MaggieG (Jun 23, 2017)

@foody518, thickening on a short blade is a good point. Thanks.


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 23, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> Thanks. It seems not all carbon knives rust @ the same rate. I definitely don't want one that rusts in between strokes for sure. I was thinking it might increase my ability to find a shorter blade w the narrower width and a flatter blade if I considered some carbon knives. Suggestions on such a knife?



To be clear, "reactivity" is different from "rust". What I got was orange discoloration, which is unsightly but not damaging. The impression I've gotten around here is Shigefusas, which are very highly-regarded, also have extremely reactive iron cladding. Rust does take longer than in between slices to form.

That said, I'd probably go elsewhere if I were you, it drove me up the dman wall despite taking care of the thing!


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## Mucho Bocho (Jun 23, 2017)

Maggie, if your still hanging around after 70 posts, you're going to get more than one knife anyway. Ask Captain. Get to what's is all about. A bad ass carbon cutter that might not be aesthetically what you'd envisioned but will open a door to a world you've only read about. Then the journey begins.


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## K813zra (Jun 23, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Maggie, if your still hanging around after 70 posts, you're going to get more than one knife anyway. Ask Captain. Get to what's is all about. A bad ass carbon cutter that might not be aesthetically what you'd envisioned but will open a door to a world you've only read about. Then the journey begins.



Then three months down the road she will find herself with 30 knives and 300 stones? Been there...:biggrin:


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## gic (Jun 23, 2017)

One of the various style 7" inch Kramers, you can try them out at Sur La Table??


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## MaggieG (Jun 24, 2017)

Earlier in the thread when I was focused on learning to sharpen, a couple inexpensive carbon knives were suggested. Reviews on one of the knives said it rusted so quickly, it was staining shallots or garlic and had to be dried in between strokes. But I understand now that some are worse than others and adding a carbon that doesn't do this to my stainless knives would broaden my range and experience. So that's why I'm a little crazy focused on how fast it rusts. I'm willing/ able to take reasonable care & time w my knives but every stroke is a deal breaker. Bottom line, I would like to add a carbon knife and need guidance on ones that aren't self-destructing. Another question later in the thread.


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## MaggieG (Jun 24, 2017)

Yup, I see it coming&#128516; The right tool is worth it's price their price in dollars and storage space. No point in 10 knives, 6 unused requiring a second knife block. I was just looking at Kramers and Watanabes his morning. I knew this would happen, it always does&#128516; This is where I started:

https://shun.kaiusaltd.com/blog/shun-hikari-wins-2016-kitchen-knife-of-the-year

The idea of the two core metals wearing differently and apparently adding some toothiness to the blade attracted me. I've read somewhere about true Damascus is repeatedly layered, rolled, and ?forged together to do the same thing but better. So they would not be core metals surrounded by pretty cladding but an integral part of the blade? Is that correct? Thoughts on all this?


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## daveb (Jun 24, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> Thanks. It seems not all carbon knives rust @ the same rate. I definitely don't want one that rusts in between strokes for sure.





DanHumphrey said:


> To be clear, "reactivity" is different from "rust".....
> 
> That said, I'd probably go elsewhere if I were you, it drove me up the dman wall despite taking care of the thing!






Mucho Bocho said:


> Maggie, if your still hanging around after 70 posts, you're going to get more than one knife anyway. Ask Captain. Get to what's is all about. A bad ass carbon cutter that might not be aesthetically what you'd envisioned but will open a door to a world you've only read about.



M, One of these proffers good advice. But. Orange is the old black, not the new one. Luv ya Dennis.



K813zra said:


> Then three months down the road she will find herself with 30 knives and 300 stones? Been there...:biggrin:



Took me longer. 100 days?


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## Bodine (Jun 24, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> Bottom line, I would like to add a carbon knife and need guidance on ones that aren't self-destructing. Another question later in the thread.



Last fall I was looking to upgrade my Shun, I found this site and filled out the form.
This knife was suggested and I could not be happier. No rust issues, holds an edge, and sharpens easily.
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/kochi/products/kochi-240mm-kurouchi-wa-gyuto


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## K813zra (Jun 24, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> Earlier in the thread when I was focused on learning to sharpen, a couple inexpensive carbon knives were suggested. Reviews on one of the knives said it rusted so quickly, it was staining shallots or garlic and had to be dried in between strokes. But I understand now that some are worse than others and adding a carbon that doesn't do this to my stainless knives would broaden my range and experience. So that's why I'm a little crazy focused on how fast it rusts. I'm willing/ able to take reasonable care & time w my knives but every stroke is a deal breaker. Bottom line, I would like to add a carbon knife and need guidance on ones that aren't self-destructing. Another question later in the thread.



I would think what was being said earlier was that you will get orange or black discoloration between strokes on a knife fresh out of the box. I have had more than a few iron clad knives like this but it does not last long. Cook up some steak or chicken on the grill and slice it up first off and you will jump start your patina and help avoid this. Even some higher end knives come with very, very reactive iron cladding. That does not mean it is something you have to like or dislike, different strokes and all that. 

That said, you are going to get discoloration from many knives before your patina forms. Take my Ginga in white #2 for example, no iron cladding and not overly reactive once a patina sets in and it does so quickly. However, the first thing I cut with it was garlic and it would drag purple goo through the cut. Red onions would show black discoloration and white onions would show orange discoloration. This is on the product being cut not the blade itself. That calmed down a lot after session one. After session 3/4 it saw no discoloration at all. Sure, it is still slightly reactive and the color of the patina will change but lightly. Something to keep in mind is that you will see this again to a lesser extent every time you sharpen but again, that will go away quickly. When you thin a blade and take away all of the patina it is like starting fresh and you will be back at square one. It is just part of owning carbon. Don't let that intimidate you but it is something to keep in mind as well. 

Now you can heavily mitigate this by going with stainless clad carbon as only the very edge is reactive and will patina very quickly. There are semi stainless steels out there as well which offer a lot of advantages of both carbon and stainless while not really being either. Everything will have a trade off, it is just about finding which ones you are willing to put up with. 

Overall I think the maintenance require of carbon knives is much lower than often made out to be. Yes it is there, no it isn't a nightmare and it is easily manageable at least from my perspective as a home cook. Maybe carbon is not for everyone and iron clad carbon even less so but I still feel it is blown out of proportion. Anyway, that is just my opinion.

I do think that having stuck around this long you will end up with at least one carbon knife at some point.


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## foody518 (Jun 24, 2017)

You can always just go stainless clad carbon to start out which is quite easy to manage. Ikazuchi from JKI would get ya a nice cutter at a good price point

As you're just starting out in this madness, I would suggest that the interactions between two possible folded steels in the core in a given knife makes less of a difference than everything else which may differ compared to other choices- handle heft, blade profile and height, grind/geometry, stainless vs carbon, HT, etc.
If you want another geeky topic to browse - Wootz Damascus


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 24, 2017)

foody518 said:


> You can always just go stainless clad carbon to start out which is quite easy to manage. Ikazuchi from JKI would get ya a nice cutter at a good price point
> 
> As you're just starting out in this madness, I would suggest that the interactions between two possible folded steels in the core in a given knife makes less of a difference than everything else which may differ compared to other choices- handle heft, blade profile and height, grind/geometry, stainless vs carbon, HT, etc.
> If you want another geeky topic to browse - Wootz Damascus



That's the spot I wound up at - my current daily cutter is the Sukenari AS. Wonderful patina on the exposed core (except on the sharpened bevel), stainless cladding to keep my OCD at bay. Part of my wants to get a Gesshin Ginga white monosteel from Jon, which would probably develop a nice patina all over instead of orange. But then I'm not sure it would actually gain me anything.

Maybe I should just sell my Dalman and do it; I'm not such a fan of AEB-L.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jun 25, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> @Marcelo- the onions don't stick to the blade?



So far, it was one of the best on that regard (together with Takeda). Keep in mind i'm using those smaller onions 7cm (little shy of 3 inch) diameter recently, due to the late onion season around my neck of woods.


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## MaggieG (Jun 25, 2017)

A few quick questions: 
Why are some grits extremely more expensive than others? A 240 grit was more than double the cost of a 6000, same maker & size. Different seller but that was in line w usual variations in markups. 

Is there any reason Camellia oil would be better than food grade mineral oil for knives/boards? Since it's organic like a cooking oil, wouldn't it turn rancid and sticky also?


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## daveb (Jun 25, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> Is there any reason Camellia oil would be better than food grade mineral oil for knives/boards? Since it's organic like a cooking oil, wouldn't it turn rancid and sticky also?



Yet another reason for stainless:groucho:

FWIW I've a few carbon and have used the same food grade mineral oil I use on knife handles and cutting boards. But camella oil comes in a cool little atomizer dispenser.


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## MaggieG (Jun 25, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> A few quick questions:
> Why are some grits extremely more expensive than others? A 240 grit was more than double the cost of a 6000, same maker & size. Different seller but that was in line w usual variations in markups.
> 
> Is there any reason Camellia oil would be better than food grade mineral oil for knives/boards? Since it's organic like a cooking oil, wouldn't it turn rancid and sticky also?



To clarify:

Why are some grits extremely more expensive than others? A 240 grit was more than double the cost of a 6000, same maker & size.
Two stones w same grits, different mfgrs and sellers had price variations about what I'd expect in any market.


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## MaggieG (Jun 25, 2017)

gic said:


> One of the various style 7" inch Kramers, you can try them out at Sur La Table??



3.5 hour drive to Tampa for SLT.&#128533;


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## K813zra (Jun 25, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> A few quick questions:
> Why are some grits extremely more expensive than others? A 240 grit was more than double the cost of a 6000, same maker & size. Different seller but that was in line w usual variations in markups.
> 
> Is there any reason Camellia oil would be better than food grade mineral oil for knives/boards? Since it's organic like a cooking oil, wouldn't it turn rancid and sticky also?



I do not have a clue as to why some stones cost more than others.

As for oil, I do not think that mineral oil will go rancid but I am no authority. But I would ask why you intend to use it on your blade. Unless I am storing my blades I find no need to oil them. Even then I just use rust inhibitor paper and have never had an issue. Maybe I just live in a forgiving climate. Or again, as I stated before, my environment is temp controlled so that might have something to do with it. 

To add, even with oils that will go rancid I would not think it an issue if you use them regularly. An example would be, I spent a lot of years in Spain, as such I had a lot of carbon steel pans for cooking Paella and the like. These pans are quite susceptible to rust, more so than any knife I have ever owned. Anyway, I was taught to use olive oil and I thought that would be an issue because it goes rancid, however if it is an object you use often enough it never has that chance because you are removing the oil and applying new frequently. Not that I would put it on my board or anything that actually sucks up the oil.


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## foody518 (Jun 25, 2017)

Were the dimensions of those stones the same? I wouldn't be surprised if that 240 was a bigger brick than the 6k

Edit - read your post more carefully. Sometimes same maker has different level lines. Do you have a link?


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## MaggieG (Jun 25, 2017)

foody518 said:


> .....As you're just starting out in this madness, I would suggest that the interactions between two possible folded steels in the core in a given knife makes less of a difference than everything else which may differ compared to other choices- handle heft, blade profile and height, grind/geometry, stainless vs carbon, HT, etc.
> If you want another geeky topic to browse - Wootz Damascus



I did read the Wootz Damascus! Started looking up a term on Wiki and kept clicking links all the way down the rabbit hole. It always happens w Wiki and somehow always ends up in physics. I regret not taking that and typing in high school.&#128516;


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## MaggieG (Jun 25, 2017)

So, this SKD11 is reputed to be fine grained with excellent edge retention and easy to sharpen-if PROPERLY heat treated. The importance of the skill in HT has been mentioned before here and in Wiki since the temp and method affect at least the grain size.
So. How does one know/find out which makers are good at HT, other than custom knives of course? I have 22 tabs open trying to find a trustworthy site that names names. Except for a few sites, based on referrals here, I have a bias against seller's statements.


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 25, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> I did read the Wootz Damascus! Started looking up a term on Wiki and kept clicking links all the way down the rabbit hole. It always happens w Wiki and somehow always ends up in physics. I regret not taking that and typing in high school.&#128516;



Typing? That was my bugaboo, that and penmanship. I had teachers (right about 1990) who insisted that beautiful penmanship was essential to a good job. Then it was a matter of no-look typing speed as if my best career was to be in the typing pool. I know fantastic developers who hunt and peck and make twice as much as I do, or more...

But physics, that would have been great! I should have done chemical engineering, which would also be relevant to knives! My college friend did chemical engineering and has literally worked for (the parent company of, but actually worked on) Trojan, and now works for Hershey. Sounds a lot more fun than my career...


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## daveb (Jun 25, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> So, this SKD11 is reputed to be fine grained with excellent edge retention and easy to sharpen-if PROPERLY heat treated. The importance of the skill in HT has been mentioned before here and in Wiki since the temp and method affect at least the grain size.
> So. How does one know/find out which makers are good at HT, other than custom knives of course? I have 22 tabs open trying to find a trustworthy site that names names. Except for a few sites, based on referrals here, I have a bias against seller's statements.



If it says Yoshikane it's good SKD.


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## daveb (Jun 25, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> 3.5 hour drive to Tampa for SLT.&#128533;



You could buy me lunch....

And I've got better knives than slt:sly:


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## MaggieG (Jun 25, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> I know fantastic developers who hunt and peck and make twice as much as I do, or more...
> 
> ....Yes, but they didn't have to write as many papers as in healthcare, no more than 3 corrections/page- back when home computers were 3K. I bit the bullet and picked up extra hours. Still spent less time than retyping pages.
> 
> ...



Hershey?! Sign me up for the dark chocolate division&#128516;


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## MaggieG (Jun 25, 2017)

For an in service on HT? Cheap @ twice the price. Re: SLT, I'm certain of that!


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## MaggieG (Jun 25, 2017)

Thank you.&#128522;


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## Nemo (Jun 25, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> So, this SKD11 is reputed to be fine grained with excellent edge retention and easy to sharpen-if PROPERLY heat treated. The importance of the skill in HT has been mentioned before here and in Wiki since the temp and method affect at least the grain size.
> So. How does one know/find out which makers are good at HT, other than custom knives of course? I have 22 tabs open trying to find a trustworthy site that names names. Except for a few sites, based on referrals here, I have a bias against seller's statements.



That's what this forum is for (amongst many other things) 

I can attest to Yoshikane's HT of SKD12. I can't personally comment on their SKD11 (aka SLD) although I have read many reports that they also give it a very good HT. IIRC, SKD12 is semistainless, with a Cr content of around 6%. SLD is also semistainless but with a Cr content closer to 12%, so should be more stain resistant (but doesn't quite qualify as stainless). SKD12 sharpens very easily. I obviously can't offer personal experience on sharpening SLD.

In my kitchen, SKD12 has been effectively stainless but note that I do live in an area with a fairly dry climate.


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## MaggieG (Jun 25, 2017)

Hi Nemo, thanks for the info. Poked around and found this post. If the edge is super thin-which I equate w sharp, it doesn't stay smooth. 
How could I sharpen to avoid the problem w the burr? I didn't quite get the bottom line of that conversation.
What is a "hard" draw? I tend to be "quite enthusiastic", AKA aggressive &#128516; so some kind of measure for that would be good.

http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/...shikane-180mm-skd-11-d2-64-hrc-petty.1019267/

Thanks


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## Nemo (Jun 26, 2017)

Maggie,

They are discussing a SKD11 (SLD) Yoshikane, so I have no direct experience with this steel. Also, I do not consider myself an expert sharpener, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Maybe a sharpening expert can chime in if I'm going off track?

They are talking about sharpening to quite low angles, as low as 8 degrees per side (dps). Tool steels like SLD are moderately alloyed and have some large carbides so will suffer carbide pullout below a particular angle. Maybe this was the problem. I suspect (but am not sure) that this is less of a problem with SKD12, although I have never sharpened my Yoshi at such an acute angle (and I'd probably use a microbevel if I did).

I have sharpened at about 15 dps without problem and with great edge retention.

I wonder if you are overthinking this. I suspect the best idea is to get a knife which is not too hard to sharpen (the Yoshi would be fine, but so would many others that have been suggested) and learn to sharpen it (at the edge). Then start to research (or post a Qn about) how you will take care of the geometry of that particular knife (aka "thinning", which will maintain the geometry over time and sharpenings). The thinness behind the edge is probably as or more important than the acuteness of the edge for the performance of the knife.


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## MaggieG (Jun 26, 2017)

Overthinking? Moi? Actually it's my specialty. Or largest character defect depending on how you look at it &#128514; With some final advice from Jon, I finally made a decision.

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/gesshin-ginga-180mm-white-2-wa-petty


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## K813zra (Jun 26, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> Overthinking? Moi? Actually it's my specialty. Or largest character defect depending on how you look at it &#128514; With some final advice from Jon, I finally made a decision.
> 
> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/gesshin-ginga-180mm-white-2-wa-petty



Don't worry, I have that same character defect. I have been overthink about a natural stone that I want to buy for about 9 months now. 

You will be happy with your Ginga, or at least I think so. I love my Ginga knives. Easy to sharpen and are not really that reactive, which is particularly true after you have a nice patina.


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## MaggieG (Jun 26, 2017)

Thanks. With new to me subjects I get analysis paralysis, especially when I see folks selling catch & release. 

I am deeply appreciative of all the friendly people here who patiently followed this 90+ posts thread and answered all my questions. 

Maggie&#128522;


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## Salty dog (Jun 27, 2017)

daveb said:


> Damn Dennis, I thought about a hand gun for maybe 30 min, bought a Glock, and was not late to dinner. A couple more have followed me home but my favorite still holds 13 rounds of "go rob someone else".



Sig all day.


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## DanHumphrey (Jun 27, 2017)

MaggieG said:


> Thanks. With new to me subjects I get analysis paralysis, especially when I see folks selling catch & release.
> 
> I am deeply appreciative of all the friendly people here who patiently followed this 90+ posts thread and answered all my questions.
> 
> Maggie&#128522;



You're almost talking like you think you're done.


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## MaggieG (Jun 27, 2017)

Only on this thread&#128516; I'll create a new one for the next knife&#128514; 
In retrospect, a spreadsheet would have helped me compare knives. Is there one already on KKF?


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## Mucho Bocho (Jun 27, 2017)

Maggie, Something magical happens when you start handling knives 210 to 240mm. They have more weight, height and length to work with. Usually have larger flat spots and more room in the emoto/choil area making them more comfortable. They weigh more, giving more momentum through cuts. Kinda like driving on autopilot. 

You got a nice safe first knife, now look for something with a little more to hang on to. Sometimes sometime bigger is better (to an extent).


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## MaggieG (Jun 27, 2017)

MB! What an enabler you are!! I haven't even gotten the first one OR learned to sharpen it yet! 
&#128516;


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## dafox (Jul 3, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> Maggie, the first _nice_ knife I got was a 240mm Tanaka Blue2 gyuto from James at Knives & Stones (also a vendor here, and also a heckuva great guy). In all honesty, there is 0 I've gained, functionally, from the dozen or so more I've bought - they're nice, and different, but none had anything like the boost over my old crummy Target knives that the Tanaka did. It was easy to sharpen, held an edge well, and could neatly cut everything I needed. All the others have just added fun and enjoyment.
> 
> The one thing I did NOT like about that knife was its reactivity - the iron cladding turned orange if you looked at it wrong. Forget "taking care of it", it would be orange by the time I finished cutting a couple of peppers. If you can live with that, it'd be a great knife in 210mm for you. There is a stainless-clad version that won't react like that, but unfortunately it is out of stock at the moment.
> 
> ...



The Tanaka ss clad blue 2 gyuto is back in stock at K+S.
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-blue-2-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-stainless-clad/


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