# Nan(chosera) pro 2000



## Mike Shults (Apr 20, 2021)

I need some of the experienced people to give me some advice. This is concerning bevels setter for my straight razor. I like to set bevels with stones that are fast enough but do not scratch deep, because if so they can not be removed in higher grits. I actually just bought a Shapton pro 2k and I don't like it, the reason is because is scratches deep, meaning by the time I go through my progression my Shapton 2k pro, shapton glass 4, 6, 8, and Nan/12k it still leaves rouge scratches from the 2k pro. It also loads up very quick and feels kinda gummy, not bad but in a way. The reason I bought it was because most everyone's benchmark for good bevels setter is Chosera 1k, and some guys said the shapton 2k pro is pretty close to a Chosera 1k as far as the finish it leaves.. Anyways I would like to know if anyone has any experience with the Chosera/Nan/2k. If so does it finish finer and faster than the Shapton 2k? I am also worried about cracking, although some people have issues while others don't. It must be the climate certain people live in that causes the issues. I live in a dry climate.I would like to safe myself some grief and frustraion.. Shapton Pros don't play well when mixed with some other manufacture/brands Every manufacturers grit system can vary a little.
Suggestions will be greatly appreciated. .


---Mike


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## Rangen (Apr 20, 2021)

My pre-JNat synthetic sequence (for whatever low grits may be needed) is SG500-SG1000-SG2000. No experience with the Pros, but the hard creamy nature of the SG stones seems to suit razors very well.


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## PappaG (Apr 20, 2021)

Can't really help you and Can't speak to sharpening razors. With that said... the cho 2000 is a "nicer feeling stone" and creates more mud compared to the Shapton Pro 2k. The Shapton Pro 2k is a no messing around, no nonsense hard quick stone in my experience. Good stone but would not describe it as "enjoyable" to use. It was just no-nonsense. The cho 2k is more enjoyable for whatever that is worth. Both produce good edges in my limited experience....


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## M1k3 (Apr 20, 2021)

Have you lapped off the top layer of the stone?


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## Mike Shults (Apr 20, 2021)

Rangen said:


> My pre-JNat synthetic sequence (for whatever low grits may be needed) is SG500-SG1000-SG2000. No experience with the Pros, but the hard creamy nature of the SG stones seems to suit razors very well.


When I finish with naturals my sequence is bevels setter shapton glass HC/4k then Jnat with komo, then tomo and last sometimes clear water..

My synthetic progression now is shapton 2k pro Shapton HC 4, 6, 8 Nan/12k, but again those pro 2k scratches haunt me in later grits..


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## zizirex (Apr 20, 2021)

that's weird. i have SP2K for bevel setter for my Straight Razor. I don't have any problem that will cause an unremovable scratch.

Have you tried to lap the Shapton pro? sometimes when it's new, it still has those weird coating/layers on top.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 20, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Have you lapped off the top layer of the stone?


Yes I lap about every 3-4 razors.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 20, 2021)

wHen I finish on Jnat the pro 2k works fine, because the cutting power of the asano komo removed about everything. 

When I aim for a mirror and finish with synths not so good..


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## Checkpure (Apr 20, 2021)

I haven’t put my kamisori to the stones yet but I can tell you the naniwa pro 2k is my favorite stone.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 20, 2021)

Had you had any hairline cracking issues?


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## inferno (Apr 20, 2021)

Mike Shults said:


> I need some of the experienced people to give me some advice. This is concerning bevels setter for my straight razor. I like to set bevels with stones that are fast enough but do not scratch deep, because if so they can not be removed in higher grits. I actually just bought a Shapton pro 2k and I don't like it, the reason is because is scratches deep, meaning by the time I go through my progression my Shapton 2k pro, shapton glass 4, 6, 8, and Nan/12k it still leaves rouge scratches from the 2k pro. It also loads up very quick and feels kinda gummy, not bad but in a way. The reason I bought it was because most everyone's benchmark for good bevels setter is Chosera 1k, and some guys said the shapton 2k pro is pretty close to a Chosera 1k as far as the finish it leaves.. Anyways I would like to know if anyone has any experience with the Chosera/Nan/2k. If so does it finish finer and faster than the Shapton 2k? I am also worried about cracking, although some people have issues while others don't. It must be the climate certain people live in that causes the issues. I live in a dry climate.I would like to safe myself some grief and frustraion.. Shapton Pros don't play well when mixed with some other manufacture/brands Every manufacturers grit system can vary a little.
> Suggestions will be greatly appreciated. .
> 
> 
> ---Mike



the naniwa pro finishes at about 3k when its slurried a little. speed is exactly the same as shapton pro 2k.
the solution is not getting another 2k imo. but to use the 4k stone more before moving on.

shapton pro 2k is finer than naniwa pro 1k. and almost as fast.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 20, 2021)

inferno said:


> the naniwa pro finishes at about 3k when its slurried a little. speed is exactly the same as shapton pro 2k.
> the solution is not getting another 2k imo. but to use the 4k stone more before moving on.
> 
> shapton pro 2k is finer than naniwa pro 1k. and almost as fast.


Is the Nan pro finer than Shapton 2k pro, in your experience? It does sound a little silly to buy another 2k, but I am a peculiar guy, lol, I admit. . A good bevels setter is real important to me, even the way the scratches show up. Anyways it is between a Shapton glass 2k or a Naniwa pro 2k. I have read that type SG/2k finishes fine above 2k. Hard to decide, but a 'thicker' bevel setter would be nice..


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## Mike Shults (Apr 21, 2021)

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't sealing and mounting a Chosera/Nan/2k with 2 part epoxy, and also mounting the stone on glass to stabilize it, to combat the crazing?


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## Bigbbaillie (Apr 21, 2021)

Np2k and sp2k felt fairly similar to me, np2k maybe seemed lightly finer, but I really don't think it's a big enough difference to feel like you absolutely NEED the np2k. 
I would agree with @inferno that you should probably try to spend more time on the 4k or try lapping the 4k more often because I find that the 4k can load up pretty fast in my experience.


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## Benuser (Apr 21, 2021)

Chosera 2k and Naniwa Pro 2k compared


Just got the NP2k while I still have the Chosera. A few very first impressions. Have often described the Chosera 2k as quite aggressive. Very fast. Feeling very different from the silky NP3k. Well, the NP2k is closer to the NP3k as far as the feeling is concerned. Not sure if the grit has...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com




In end result the Shapton Pro 2k delivers a JIS1.5k-like pattern, the NP2k a 3k one.


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## inferno (Apr 22, 2021)

i feel the shappro is a true 2k. 
nanipro2k is 3k but thats just because the abrasive breaks down. its 2k fast. 
nanipro1k is a quite slow 1k. finishes at 1500 or so.
the 800 finishes at 1200 or so. still 1k fast.

ymmv of course.

still the problem here is quite obvious. the 2k scratches are not "erased" by the following stone. the solution is to spend more time on the following stone. 
and its also the only solution.

i have mirror polished several monosteel blades on stones only. and there is no other way. you have to put in more time on the following stone otherwise you will see those coarser scratches in the final finish. easy as that.


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## Benuser (Apr 22, 2021)

@inferno 
"still the problem here is quite obvious. the 2k scratches are not "erased" by the following stone." 
It's the Shapton 2k you're referring to?


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## inferno (Apr 22, 2021)

i guess.

benuser. he has to spend more time on the 4k after the 2k.
it wont matter if he gets another 2k. the 2k naniwa is a good stone though. for completely different reasons.


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## Benuser (Apr 22, 2021)

I see, my poor reading, thanks!


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## Mike Shults (Apr 22, 2021)

inferno said:


> i feel the shappro is a true 2k.
> nanipro2k is 3k but thats just because the abrasive breaks down. its 2k fast.
> nanipro1k is a quite slow 1k. finishes at 1500 or so.
> the 800 finishes at 1200 or so. still 1k fast.
> ...


I went ahead and ordered it...
Later on if if don't crack, (I am not going to soak, and probably pat dry with a towel and then let air dry on a rack.) i will most likely have a piece of glass cut for the bottom and epoxy it on with Devcon 2 ton epoxy, and then seal the sides with the same epoxy..


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## Checkpure (Apr 22, 2021)

Just let the NP2k dry standing up on one side and switch sides halfway through (not tall way long way). The NP2k isn't thirsty and doesn't need anything more than a quick 30 second soak at most before use.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 22, 2021)

I typically rinse my other stones and clean them with a nagura, and then pat dry with a towel and let dry on a rack..
So would it cause harm to Chosera to dry with a towel slightly? Or do I need to leave it dripping wet and let it dry naturally?


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## Checkpure (Apr 22, 2021)

Mike Shults said:


> I typically rinse my other stones and clean them with a nagura, and then pat dry with a towel and let dry on a rack..
> So would it cause harm to Chosera to dry with a towel slightly? Or do I need to leave it dripping wet and let it dry naturally?


I don't think that routine would cause you any problems.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 22, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> I don't think that routine would cause you any problems.


Thanks for reaching out to me and helping, through pm. What are you Thought with sealing with 2 part epoxy? I am going to use it for a while and see if it acts up, because the stone may have a limited warranty. Anyways stones expand when wet, so epoxy drys semi-hard, I don't think stones expand all that much, and epoxy would probably be just as good as spar varnish, or maybe even better??


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## Benuser (Apr 23, 2021)

I don't think sealing is a good idea, as it will hinder even drying.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 23, 2021)

Benuser said:


> I don't think sealing is a good idea, as it will hinder even drying.


I may for may not seal, some folks seem to think it hinders cracking and others think differently, but I am open to all suggestions, and value each one. I will definitely epoxy it to glass though. With my Naniwa 12k ss I had trouble with warping and not staying flat, so I epoxied it to Glass with Devcon 2 ton epoxy 30minute cure type. I first lightly frosted both side of the glass for better bond, but the outside I frosted too juts to make it look kinda like a SG stone, and I also chamfered all edges and corners with a belt sander. Stays flat now.

Yeah some guys use spar varnish, with good success on synthetic stones. My Jnat was sealed by a friend with cashew.. My only concern is with 2 part epoxy is it drys relatively firm/hard. So maybe that would be a bad idea because the way I understand it the stones expand while wet. So I dunno yet??


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## Cmfuen (Apr 23, 2021)

I wrap my Naniwa pro 800 & 3k stones in paper towels until dry before re-boxing them. For what it’s worth, they are fine.


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## branwell (Apr 23, 2021)

Mike Shults said:


> Had you had any hairline cracking issues?



I have the Chosera 400, 800 and had a 3K which I traded for a Naniwa Pro 2k. Poor little buggers haven't had an easy life with me. They get used in my sharpening side business so get used a lot and also travel around in the back of my car. They have seen the heat of Virginia summers and the cold of up state NY winters. No special water, no special drying. All I do is not soak them. I should add that I took a heat gun to the Chosara 400 and 800 to get the basses off to make them more compact, so lots of heat expansion and prying force. So far, no issues.

From what I've heard, the cracking issue is more frequent with the 10K and 5K and reduce as the grits go down but given how I treat stones, I think as long as you don't soak them, cracking is the exception to the rule.


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## branwell (Apr 23, 2021)

Mike Shults said:


> My only concern is with 2 part epoxy is it drys relatively firm/hard. So maybe that would be a bad idea because the way I understand it the stones expand while wet. So I dunno yet??



I took the bases of my Choseras to make them more compact. The glue is flexible. Behaves like hot glue.


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## Checkpure (Apr 23, 2021)

I was going to seal one but chose not to. I also think it would hurt the stones ability to dry evenly. If you dry these as evenly as you can on all sides I think you'll be safe.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 23, 2021)

I should have added, that 'if' I decide to seal (all the sides) I will be sealing with the same epoxy (Devcon 2 ton) I use to attach the glass to the bottom of the stone. It's water proof definitely, but it dries semi-hard, so that may or may not be good. I think it would be good because it will bind everything up good and it will keep the stone from expanding too much during wet and dry cycles.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Apr 23, 2021)

You might hold off on the glass until the stone gets thin. I have marble tile on my 8k and 12k 1cm super stones, but I don't intend to mount my Chosera/Pro stones until they get thin enough that I'm worried about breaking them. They are much more dimensionally stable than the 1 cm super stones.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 23, 2021)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> You might hold off on the glass until the stone gets thin. I have marble tile on my 8k and 10k 1cm super stones, but I don't intend to mount my Chosera/Pro stones until they get thin enough that I'm worried about breaking them. They are much more dimensionally stable than the 1 cm super stones.


Hey Victor!
Thanks for the help!


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## kayman67 (Apr 24, 2021)

All sealed stones I have behaved better, so much so that eventually I've done most of them.


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## Benuser (Apr 24, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> All sealed stones I have behaved better, so much so that eventually I've done most of them.


Magnesia-bound amongst them?


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## kayman67 (Apr 24, 2021)

Yes, about 5-6.


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## Benuser (Apr 24, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Yes, about 5-6.


Thanks!


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## Mike Shults (Apr 24, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> All sealed stones I have behaved better, so much so that eventually I've done most of them.


Hi ,
What are your thoughts on using a 2 part epoxy to seal the sides?


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## kayman67 (Apr 24, 2021)

I use it everywhere. But, if you use the fast ones, they won't exactly bond with the stone. Fine for porous low grit ones, as you don't want to get into the stone too deep, not for the others. 
If you use slow curing mixture, make sure you apply right before it heats up. If it's too liquid and gets all over, might be a super hard job to remove completely. Also apply in small amounts, so keep track of weight as needed.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 24, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> I use it everywhere. But, if you use the fast ones, they won't exactly bond with the stone. Fine for porous low grit ones, as you don't want to get into the stone too deep, not for the others.
> If you use slow curing mixture, make sure you apply right before it heats up. If it's too liquid and gets all over, might be a super hard job to remove completely. Also apply in small amounts, so keep track of weight as needed.


 I have a little experience with the Devcon 2 ton epoxy (30 minutes) cure. I have epoxied quite a few pieces of glass on the bottoms of stones to stabilize them, in reality you only have about 12-14 minutes working time, I usually add 3-4 drops of Denatured alcohol to increase working time.

I have never sealed a stone with epoxy though.. What I am concerned about is, well epoxy dries hard, so I don't know if that will be bad or good for the stone, meaning I assume the stone expands when wet.. Anyways that's my only concern. So I dunno??


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## kayman67 (Apr 24, 2021)

I imagine that any ill effects would have manifested themselves already after so long.


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## Luftmensch (Apr 25, 2021)

@Mike Shults,

I'll echo some of the comments said here. Like @inferno says... if you want to remove all scratches from your bevel setting stone, you have to spend more time on the next stone. A new stone wont fix that! A stone that leaves shallower scratches may help... but you still have to spend enough time on the following grit.

That said, in my experience Shapton glass are scratchier than Chosera (chosera seems to break down into finer particles).


I have similar experience @branwell:



branwell said:


> I have the Chosera 400, 800 and had a 3K which I traded for a Naniwa Pro 2k. Poor little buggers haven't had an easy life with me. They get used in my sharpening side business so get used a lot and also travel around in the back of my car. They have seen the heat of Virginia summers and the cold of up state NY winters. No special water, no special drying. All I do is not soak them. I should add that I took a heat gun to the Chosara 400 and 800 to get the basses off to make them more compact, so lots of heat expansion and prying force. So far, no issues.
> 
> From what I've heard, the cracking issue is more frequent with the 10K and 5K and reduce as the grits go down but given how I treat stones, I think as long as you don't soak them, cracking is the exception to the rule.



I have the 400, 1000, 3000. Absolutely _zero_ issues. Literally splash and go - I just cover the surface with water and get going. When I am done I rinse the mud off and stand the stones up on their end to air dry. No cracking.

I have also read the problems are more associated with the 5k and 10K. I do have a Naniwa Snow White (Chosera-like) which is crazing. Even though it is crazing, it does not affect honing. The crazing also appears skin deep. If I spend enough time laping, the crazing disappears (only to reappear a month later or so...)

I would not bother sealing the stones if you are worried about cracking/crazing. Whether or not it provides other benefits 




kayman67 said:


> All sealed stones I have behaved better, so much so that eventually I've done most of them.



@kayman67, I'd be interested to hear more about this. How does their behaviour improve?


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## kayman67 (Apr 25, 2021)

No shifting with razors. Less water with/after soaking. But other things I like as well. Don't really care about hitting them anymore (that's on me), don't really care when they get thin, 99% usable. Cracks stopped developing after (I believe that cracking is an environmental issue to start with, I have mixed experiences with this, even Shapton did the same in some locations). I even saved completely split stones. They work seamlessly now for more than a year. 
Overall, less maintenance and keeping them in that sweet spot. Haven't seen anything bad happening. I use very slow curing epoxy. The biggest caveat is that with porous stones, this needs to be applied at the right time or you get a new type of stone.


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## Bart.s (Apr 26, 2021)

I've also have no problems with mine, have the 400, 800 and 3000. I never soak them and always clean them with the Naniwa dressing stone. I towel dry them and let them dry on an angle to dry them evenly.

At first I didn't like them, but the more I use them the more I love them. As a side question, is it worth having the 2000 if you already have the 3000, or is the difference negligible?


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## Benuser (Apr 26, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> As a side question, is it worth having the 2000 if you already have the 3000, or is the difference negligible?


The new Naniwa Pro 2k and 3k are very close, more than with the former Chosera. You may consider the Shapton Pro 2k instead, for example as a last stone with some stainless, where refining up to 4k (as with the NP3k) might be counterproductive.


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## Checkpure (Apr 26, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> I've also have no problems with mine, have the 400, 800 and 3000. I never soak them and always clean them with the Naniwa dressing stone. I towel dry them and let them dry on an angle to dry them evenly.
> 
> At first I didn't like them, but the more I use them the more I love them. As a side question, is it worth having the 2000 if you already have the 3000, or is the difference negligible?


Depends on if you're finishing on the 3000 or not. I'd rather finish on the 3000 vs the 2000 for carbons. However I really prefer the snow white 8k over the 3k for finishing and I the jump from 2k - 8k is really nice. The 3000 is nice to have but not necessary for me.


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## Bart.s (Apr 26, 2021)

Benuser said:


> The new Naniwa Pro 2k and 3k are very close, more than with the former Chosera. You may consider the Shapton Pro 2k instead, for example as a last stone with some stainless, where refining up to 4k (as with the NP3k) might be counterproductive.





Checkpure said:


> Depends on if you're finishing on the 3000 or not. I'd rather finish on the 3000 vs the 2000 for carbons. However I really prefer the snow white 8k over the 3k for finishing and I the jump from 2k - 8k is really nice. The 3000 is nice to have but not necessary for me.



Yes, the NP3000 is the last stone in my progression. I thought perhaps to use the NP2000 as a faster touch up stone before the 3000, or as a finisher for knives with lower HRC than don't really benefit from a NP3000 edge. In that context, worth having?


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## Checkpure (Apr 26, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> Yes, the NP3000 is the last stone in my progression. I thought perhaps to use the NP2000 as a faster touch up stone before the 3000, or as a finisher for knives with lower HRC than don't really benefit from a NP3000 edge. In that context, worth having?


Probably not but that has never stopped us has it? The np2k is my fav stone to use, something about the feel. Sell the 3k get a 2k and 8k


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## Bart.s (Apr 26, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> Probably not but that has never stopped us has it? The np2k is my fav stone to use, something about the feel. Sell the 3k get a 2k and 8k



No it hasn't . I'm in this hobby for about 2 years now and the NP's are my third set of stones, so the 'needing' station has passed and it's more what can I justify


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## Checkpure (Apr 26, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> No it hasn't . I'm in this hobby for about 2 years now and the NP's are my third set of stones, so the 'needing' station has passed and it's more what can I justify


get em! The snow white 8k is where its at IMO. fits right in with your other stones and leaves a wild edge.


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## kayman67 (Apr 26, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> I've also have no problems with mine, have the 400, 800 and 3000. I never soak them and always clean them with the Naniwa dressing stone. I towel dry them and let them dry on an angle to dry them evenly.
> 
> At first I didn't like them, but the more I use them the more I love them. As a side question, is it worth having the 2000 if you already have the 3000, or is the difference negligible?



Only if you look at things like this.
2000 is 2000, very fast, prone to some polish up to quite bright polish with some alloys.
3000 is more like 4000.
5000 is more like something above that.
8000 Snow white is really close to the 10k Chosera, so that takes care of business for far less money, but still has its own issues with surface webbing.
In my experience you never use all of them. If you have 3 and 8k, you just skip 2 and 5. If you use the 2k, no real need to use 3k and most of the time same goes for 5k (not always).
There are also a few variations of 4k stones that are pretty much Chosera like stones (I had some that even had the exact same stamp). I'm not sure where to find these. I just stumbled upon them. Searching Japanese pages is a huge pain.


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## branwell (Apr 26, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> As a side question, is it worth having the 2000 if you already have the 3000, or is the difference negligible?



I'm not a fan of the 3K. IMO it's too high for German stainless and isn't high enough to take advantage of what makes good carbon and stainless awesome.

2K stones are amazing. They leave awesome edges on German stainless and work great as progression stones for steels that work well at high grits.

Love 4K. Leave super aggressive and reasonably keen edges on carbons and good stainless.

5K / 6K stones are milk toast. Kind of this middle ground that isn't special in any regard. Not really that aggressive and not really that keen.

8K stones are getting into this eye poping sharp territory for steels that can manage it while still retaining some aggression ( assuming you have an 8K stone that leaves aggressive edges. I'm looking at you King 8K )


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## Bart.s (Apr 26, 2021)

If I would buy the NP2k it would it would indeed be as a finisher for german stainless. I sharpen some knives for friends and family that only have german stainless. For now, I always finish them on the NP800, so I guess the NP2k will have it's place.

While I like the edge from the NP3000 on my own knifes and I've always been let to believe that the NP3k would be plenty for most kitchen tasks, now I'm temped to try a 8k. The King 8k looks like a cheap option to try it, as I haven't seen a Naniwa 8k anywhere here in Europe. Thanks for the advice .


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## Benuser (Apr 26, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> If I would buy the NP2k it would it would indeed be as a finisher for german stainless. I sharpen some knives for friends and family that only have german stainless. For now, I always finish them on the NP800, so I guess the NP2k will have it's place.
> 
> While I like the edge from the NP3000 on my own knifes and I've always been let to believe that the NP3k would be plenty for most kitchen tasks, now I'm temped to try a 8k. The King 8k looks like a cheap option to try it, as I haven't seen a Naniwa 8k anywhere here in Europe. Thanks for the advice .


I don't think Krupp's 4116 will benefit from going up to the NP2k. It's end result is 3k-ish. Edge stability will suffer from any further refinement, as it weakens the already soft matrix while the carbides remain intact and are likely to break out.
I normally use 400 or 500 NP with those soft stainless and end by very light edge leading 'stropping' and deburring on the NP800, so no full sharpening. Perhaps a few last deburring strokes on the NP2k, but certainly nothing more.


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## Bart.s (Apr 26, 2021)

Benuser said:


> I don't think Krupp's 4116 will benefit from going up to the NP2k. It's end result is 3k-ish. Edge stability will suffer from any further refinement, as it weakens the already soft matrix while the carbides remain intact and are likely to break out.
> I normally use 400 or 500 NP with those soft stainless and end by very light edge leading 'stropping' and deburring on the NP800, so no full sharpening. Perhaps a few last deburring strokes on the NP2k, but certainly nothing more.



This is my usual progression also for the more cheaper german knives. But do you also use this progression for more premium german knives, Wüsthof Ikon for example? I thought those might benefit from a NP2k.


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## Benuser (Apr 26, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> This is my usual progression also for the more cheaper german knives. But do you also use this progression for more premium german knives, Wüsthof Ikon for example? I thought those might benefit from a NP2k.


What I described was how I handle the finest ones amongst the Krupp's 4116. The Victorinox doesn't see a NP800 and gets deburred with the green side of a kitchen pad.


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## Bart.s (Apr 26, 2021)

Benuser said:


> What I described was how I handle the finest ones amongst the Krupp's 4116. The Victorinox doesn't see a NP800 and gets deburred with the green side of a kitchen pad.



I didn't knew Krupp 4116 steel, so I googled it. Came across some $20 knives. Did some more searching and found out that Wüsthofs X50CrMoV15 basically is Krupp 4116 . Sorry, didn't know that. Anyway, thanks for the advice.


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## kayman67 (Apr 26, 2021)

It's not really that simple. Heat treatment and other things matter a lot. You can't judge all the knives as being the same based on generic alloy type. 
As far as how much such an alloy would benefit from a proper sharpening, has been talked about just too many times. They benefit even from 6k from example or whatever higher grit, but, as always, the question is if it's worth the effort to get them there or just put another working edge fast and keep cutting.


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## Luftmensch (Apr 27, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> If I would buy the NP2k it would it would indeed be as a finisher for german stainless. I sharpen some knives for friends and family that only have german stainless. For now, I always finish them on the NP800, so I guess the NP2k will have it's place.



I can't help you on the finisher for German stainless... I haven't sharpened one of them for years  But my gut says the 2000 and 3000 are so close, it wouldn't be a huge value add to your stone arsenal. Stropping might be a cheaper and more effective method for achieving what you need there??




Bart.s said:


> I thought perhaps to use the NP2000 as a faster touch up stone before the 3000



On the one hand yes! On the other hand... no. It would be faster than your 3000 but slower than your 800. Rather than the 2000, experiment with lighter pressure on your 800. Maybe even use the surface dry so that it glazes and acts finer. Of course, you can add the 2000... but that seems like a low return on investment type proposition to me!!




Bart.s said:


> While I like the edge from the NP3000 on my own knifes and I've always been let to believe that the NP3k would be plenty for most kitchen tasks, now I'm temped to try a 8k. The King 8k looks like a cheap option to try it, as I haven't seen a Naniwa 8k anywhere here in Europe. Thanks for the advice .



My opinion on this remains unchanged... *3000 is a good grit* to finish on for general use. Of course you can go higher! Decent steel will allow you to do that. Chasing that dragon can be fun and it may make you a better sharpener. But it isnt _necessary_. The amount of utility you get out of more refined edges depends on what you are doing and your cutting technique. If you take your edge up to 20K... great... but if you are a notorious board banger, those benefits won't last long. 

Rather than the 2K, i think the 8K would be a more 'fun' usage of your money. Note that the stone we are talking about is not a Chosera or Pro. Although it is not part of the Chosera line-up, it is _Chosera-like_. It is called Naniwa 'Junpaku' or 'Snow White'. Try those search terms.... If you are desperate for that stone... you could also try look in good carpentry stores.


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## Cloudsmoker (Apr 27, 2021)

Just picked up a NP 2000, mostly because I start with the NP 800 and wanted something in between before polishing on a JNat. It was really”sandy” for the first couple days, leaving more grit than slurry. Finally, that seems to be wearing off and is becoming an enjoyable atone. Hmmm? Curious in Dallas.


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## Checkpure (Apr 27, 2021)

Cloudsmoker said:


> Just picked up a NP 2000, mostly because I start with the NP 800 and wanted something in between before polishing on a JNat. It was really”sandy” for the first couple days, leaving more grit than slurry. Finally, that seems to be wearing off and is becoming an enjoyable atone. Hmmm? Curious in Dallas.


Lots of stones need a good lapping to remove the top layer before they settle in.


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## Cloudsmoker (Apr 27, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> Lots of stones need a good lapping to remove the top layer before they settle in.


Thanks. Wasn’t aware of, or encountered, that. Good to know.


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## Benuser (Apr 27, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Rather than the 2K, i think the 8K would be a more 'fun' usage of your money. Note that the stone we are talking about is not a Chosera or Pro. Although it is not part of the Chosera line-up, it is _Chosera-like_. It is called Naniwa 'Junpaku' or 'Snow White'. Try those search terms.... If you are desperate for that stone... you could also try look in good carpentry stores.


The 'Snow-white' is indeed a spectacular stone, adding bite to refinement, even when the blade got previously overly polished and lost bite.
But the small benefit it offers with carbons after the NP3k or directly after the 800 is very expensive. Small, very interesting improvement at high costs.
Just one warning: I don't know about the NP5k, but found the Chosera 5k most disappointing. Softer than I am used to, but above all: total absence of tactile feedback. Quite frustrating to have to guess whether a burr is gone or not, or whether you've reached the very edge. With a NP3k or the 'Snow-white' you feel, hear and often see it.
Would be glad to hear about members' experience with the new NP5k.


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## kayman67 (Apr 27, 2021)

Hm. Your experience points me towards Naniwa Super Stone 5000 rather than Professional 5000.


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## inferno (Apr 27, 2021)

i have sealed my naniwa pros. my thinking is: less sides open to leach out the magnesia binder = less chance of cracking. because the magnesia will definitely leach out if it can.


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## Luftmensch (Apr 27, 2021)

Benuser said:


> But the small benefit it offers with carbons after the NP3k or directly after the 800 is very expensive. Small, very interesting improvement at high costs.



True! One of the reasons I dont think higher grits are necessary (unless you want to have fun )

In some ways the Snow White is good value though... It is a little bit cheaper then the Chosera 5k and a helluva lot cheaper than the ridiculous Chosera 10K.




Benuser said:


> I don't know about the NP5k, but found the Chosera 5k most disappointing. Softer than I am used to, but above all: total absence of tactile feedback.



Thanks for that. That is disappointing to hear!





kayman67 said:


> Hm. Your experience points me towards Naniwa Super Stone 5000 rather than Professional 5000.



Hmmm... the Superstones are even softer and have a smoother feedback with more drag/friction. They arent terrible stones... I use them for razors - but I do strongly prefer Chosera for kitchen knives.

I compared Super stones and Chosera in this post. You may be interested? After re-reading it, I feel it still represents my thoughts. Although... it can be hard to describe sensations! I would like to add a little clarification about the Snow White though. While I mention that you can still keep cutting when there is swarf on the surface, i didnt mention that you can help prevent clogging by maintaining fresh water on the stone. If you let the slurry get too thick, it starts to clog. When it does, you can often rub the swarf off with your fingers. While it is similar to the Choseras... I pretty much dont have to think about clogging with the Chosera 3K and below. With the Snow White, it is something I find I have to actively manage just that little bit more.

I dont know how similar this is to the Chosera 5K (@Benuser ?) and 10K? It would not surprise me if it is just an inevitable consequence of higher grit stones...


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## Benuser (Apr 28, 2021)

@Luftmensch Haven't seen that clogging with other stones, but haven't much to compare with in those high grits. Haven't noticed any similar thing with the Chosera 5k. 
What you describe as clogging might explain the stickyness of the mud on the blade once finished. You can't just rinse it away. I go with my nail along the bevels. Only experienced the same with a very soft Coticule — but with that one I raise mud with saliva which gets only little by little diluted with water. 
Would the Junpaku contain some clay?


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## Benuser (Apr 28, 2021)

Got my Junpaku years ago here on B/S/T and paid only $70 all inclusive for a 2.5cm almost new one, when the € was at its top and my country's customs laxist.
Just verified today's prices: NP5k around €140(!), Junpaku €110, the Junpaku being 2cm thick.
Quite sure I won't give the 5k a second chance.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 28, 2021)

Hi all,
I lapped my new Nan/pro2k stone and man that thing is hard! I did my bulk lapping with a diamond plate and finished it on 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper.Used it once is definitely slick and quiet as far a feedback. I hate to make assumptions this early on, but first impressions it's not all that fast, and it's more like a 3k finish, and that's good, if it's fast. I maybe wrong but it didn't seem fast on the cheap chinese made gold Dollar razor, meaning it didn't seem to bite into the steel much.. I need to keep using it, but first impressions was not all that great, but I guess I need to learn the stone. Before I bought this Nan pro a buddy of mine tried to to me to get a Shapton Glass 2k, he said it was finer and faster than the Shapton pro 2k. I dunno??


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## branwell (Apr 28, 2021)

Mike Shults said:


> Shapton Glass 2k, he said it was finer and faster than the Shapton pro 2k. I dunno??



I have both. To me the Shapton Glass 2K is a little faster and the edge it leaves is definitely a little lower grit and more aggressive than the Nan Pro 2K.


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## kayman67 (Apr 28, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Got my Junpaku years ago here on B/S/T and paid only $70 all inclusive for a 2.5cm almost new one, when the € was at its top and my country's customs laxist.
> Just verified today's prices: NP5k around €140(!), Junpaku €110, the Junpaku being 2cm thick.
> Quite sure I won't give the 5k a second chance.



If you ever consider using a Chosera like 5k, maybe you might be able to find a cheaper Kramer 5k stone.


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## kayman67 (Apr 28, 2021)

Mike Shults said:


> Hi all,
> I lapped my new Nan/pro2k stone and man that thing is hard! I did my bulk lapping with a diamond plate and finished it on 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper.Used it once is definitely slick and quiet as far a feedback. I hate to make assumptions this early on, but first impressions it's not all that fast, and it's more like a 3k finish, and that's good, if it's fast. I maybe wrong but it didn't seem fast on the cheap chinese made gold Dollar razor, meaning it didn't seem to bite into the steel much.. I need to keep using it, but first impressions was not all that great, but I guess I need to learn the stone. Before I bought this Nan pro a buddy of mine tried to to me to get a Shapton Glass 2k, he said it was finer and faster than the Shapton pro 2k. I dunno??



Shapton Pro 2000 is haze(ish), Glass 2000 gets a bit brighter (and I remember that I liked the edge a bit more, I still have that stone), while Naniwa Professional 2000 gets even brighter. Glass did not seem finer on anything I have ever tried, though. I think that Naniwa won't work very well with an aggressive approach. Also, there is the chance of having a glazed surface while lapping. Maybe use a coarse dressing stone to resurface the stone and test it again.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 28, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Shapton Pro 2000 is haze(ish), Glass 2000 gets a bit brighter (and I remember that I liked the edge a bit more, I still have that stone), while Naniwa Professional 2000 gets even brighter. Glass did not seem finer on anything I have ever tried, though. I think that Naniwa won't work very well with an aggressive approach. Also, there is the chance of having a glazed surface while lapping. Maybe use a coarse dressing stone to resurface the stone and test it again.


What grits do you recommend I use to surface finish/dress the surface?

I finished with a piece of 400 grit sandpaper. I know 'hard' stones are particularly on how you lap them, because they don't settle in like a softer stone that releases abrasive.


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## Checkpure (Apr 28, 2021)

Mike Shults said:


> What grits do you recommend I use to surface finish/dress the surface?
> 
> I finished with a piece of 400 grit sandpaper. I know 'hard' stones are particularly on how you lap them, because they don't settle in like a softer stone that releases abrasive.


I think you’re right in your assessment. It finished around 3k and is as fast as that. Compared to Jnats it’s like warp speed but compares it to a shapton 2k and it’s slower.


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## Benuser (Apr 29, 2021)

I use an Atoma 140 with it and use the mud. No need for refining. The relatively rough surface makes it much faster. Sandpaper releases its own particles so the mud can't be used and needs rinsing.
I do the same with the 8k Junpaku, without any problem.


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## Mike Shults (Apr 29, 2021)

Yeah I lapped with Atoma 600 and dressed with 400 wet/dry. The Atoma isn't fully broken in yet, but I guess the plate equals to 220 grit/USA. On hard stones they can act like files if one finishes roughly. On softer stones it's not so big of a deal. With the pressure I am using, when sharpening razors, it's way way less than knife pressure, so the stone would stay rough for a bit, but with knife sharpening pressure a hard stone would settle in quicker. 

This stone takes a while to dry , for sure.. I can tell they are finicky.. They finish nice, but not fast even on simple carbon steel thin razors. I bought it an I am stuck .. Now I own two 2k's.. IMO - the Shapton pro 2k, is 'almost' twice as fast, as this one.. This Nan/pro does leave a straighter more refined apex under my Belemo 10x loupe. 
Yeah my buddy told me before I even bought the Shapton pro 2k , just buy the Shapton glass 2k it's finer and faster than the SP2k. I guess everyone is different when it comes to observing scratch patterns. One can't chase scratch patterns with a ultra thin razor at such an acute bevel angle, and it's very thin behind the bevel too. Meaning if one tried to get a 'scratchless bevel' and remove 'most of the previous stria, then he or she would cause the apex to crumble. Heavy pressure on a hollow ground razor is equal to drawing a dark pencil mark on paper, and erasing it. Some guys talk about weight of the blade, I may be wrong but I disagree with weight of the blade because when you stop undercutting, meaning if the water and swarf isn't riding up over the blade then you are not hitting the very tip of the apex, JMO ..


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## kayman67 (Apr 29, 2021)

Question answered above. Also any dressing stone that's good enough not to form a "shiny" surface, can change its behaviour to some extent, with or without slurry.


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## Mike Shults (May 9, 2021)

Hi all,
Is there a place on this forum to were you can buy and sell? Unfortunately -
I just not really feeling this Nan/pro2k.. I am going to keep using it for maybe a little bit just to give it the benefit of the doubt..


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## Checkpure (May 9, 2021)

Mike Shults said:


> Hi all,
> Is there a place on this forum to were you can buy and sell? Unfortunately -
> I just not really feeling this Nan/pro2k.. I am going to keep using it for maybe a little bit just to give it the benefit of the doubt..








Non Knife Buy/Sell/Trade


This forum is for the sale of non knife items. (30 days of membership/ 50 prior posts required unless Supporting Member)




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## Mike Shults (May 9, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> Non Knife Buy/Sell/Trade
> 
> 
> This forum is for the sale of non knife items. (30 days of membership/ 50 prior posts required unless Supporting Member)
> ...



Thanks. Looks like I have a few more posts and days to go before I can venture there.. Yeah the 2k Nan is pretty slow, to me..


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## Checkpure (May 9, 2021)

Mike Shults said:


> Thanks. Looks like I have a few more posts and days to go before I can venture there.. Yeah the 2k Nan is pretty slow, to me..


On what steel? Takes two to four passes on carbons for me to raise a bur. 4-6 on sld


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## Mike Shults (May 9, 2021)

Just plain carbon steel.. But pressure on a hollow ground razor is different from knife sharpening pressure.. Way less than half.


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## Mike Shults (May 11, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> On what steel? Takes two to four passes on carbons for me to raise a bur. 4-6 on sld


I am not counting the stone out yet.. The scratches are way less in depth compared to the Shapton Pro 2k, although the SP is a brighter finish, but it still scratches deeper, than the NAn pro, it leaves a more natural hazy finish if that makes sense, kinda like a natural stone in a way, like a Kasumi finish. No signs of cracks yet, I will give it a fare shake before I draw out any conclusions. . I use a Nan/brown biscuit 600 grit to deglaze/condition and keep fresh grit readily available on the surface between lappings, I lap my bevel setters about every 4 razors and on my 4khc 6khc 8khc and Nan 12k every dozen razors, although I do dress and clean the surfaces of these in-between lappings also.

---Mike


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## Checkpure (May 11, 2021)

Mike Shults said:


> I am not counting the stone out yet.. The scratches are way less in depth compared to the Shapton Pro 2k, although the SP is a brighter finish, but it still scratches deeper, than the NAn pro, it leaves a more natural hazy finish if that makes sense, kinda like a natural stone in a way, like a Kasumi finish. No signs of cracks yet, I will give it a fare shake before I draw out any conclusions. . I use a Nan/brown biscuit 600 grit to deglaze/condition and keep fresh grit readily available on the surface between lappings, I lap my bevel setters about every 4 razors and on my 4khc 6khc 8khc and Nan 12k every dozen razors, although I do dress and clean the surfaces of these in-between lappings also.
> 
> ---Mike


Have a 16k shapton glass on the way to try out with my kamisori. Been using a 12k pro and Jnat asagi. The asagi is huge and won’t travel well.


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## Mike Shults (May 11, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> Have a 16k shapton glass on the way to try out with my kamisori. Been using a 12k pro and Jnat asagi. The asagi is huge and won’t travel well.


Nice!! I also have a level 5+ asaigi , and also a Kiita a deep layer one it's about 5++, I just received it a friend gave it to me, I don't know if he is on this forum but in the razor forums he goes by Steve56, he is a knowledgeable guy with these stones.. My Jnats progression is I typically hone with synths up to 4k, after that I do a round of diamond slurry with a well worn 600 diamond and then move to asano komo nagura, then tomo, and last about 30 water clear water strokes, thankful my stones either of my Jnats do not scratch or skip on clear water strokes.i really like a good flax linen, imo it really bumps up the polish and keenness on the kasumi finish.. a lot of folks don't like the Kasumi finish, but I think it's beautiful, and don't let that bead blasted finish fool you, lol, IMO, it will compete or sometimes blow a synthetic shaving edge out of the water, you get 'Sharp' and 'smooth' with a razor grade Jnat..


Cheers,

Mike


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