# Gesshin 8k Opinions



## robenco15 (Nov 18, 2018)

I own a Beston 500, Bester 1200, and a Suhiro Rika 5000. Looking to add Jon’s Gesshin 8k to that lineup. Any reason why this wouldn’t be a good idea? Thanks!

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/gesshin-8000-grit-stone


----------



## refcast (Nov 18, 2018)

The Gesshin 8000, when I owned it, cuts really fast and is on the medium-softer side, and so it can dish -- but at such a high grit, that's a good thing so that it doesn't clog. It was really, really fast. . . it almost worked like the Gesshin 6k in speed. If you want a 8k edge, yeah, it will produce an edge that isn't polished over. But at that grit, I'd rather have a finisher Jnat for around the same price or save up for it. Bernal Cutlery or Aframes, for instance. And they won't need to soak. . . they cut a little slower but feel a lottt finer of an edge.. . because where soaking synthetic stones have pores to hold water, japanese natural stones are pretty darn dense (even the softer ones), and so they have more even surface contact and cut effectively finer .. . or so I think. Jnats do not clog though unless they are razor hard stones . . . at which point they burnish shiny more than load black.

Otherwise, Gesshin stones are good in my experience testing them in store and having bought a few.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 18, 2018)

I don’t know a thing about Jnats. Would something like this be good? 
http://bernal-cutlery.shoplightspeed.com/stone-201.html


----------



## Matus (Nov 18, 2018)

The Jnat stone you really want is a nice Ohira Suita Aka Renge lv3 - lv3.5, the most reliable source is Maksim, but it will cost you. There surely are lower priced stones that will give you comparable edge for less money, but I have yet to see Ohira Suita from Maxim that did not deliver.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 18, 2018)

Yeah I'm not interested in spending $300-$1200 on a stone. I'm just a home cook. Looking to get one more finer grit finishing stone and thought the 8k would be a reasonable choice given the price and the simplicity behind it.


----------



## refcast (Nov 18, 2018)

Would you be okay spending $30 more than Gesshin 8k to get a Jnat from JKI?

https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/tennen-toishi-natural-stones/products/oouchi-medium

I mean it's non soaking, so you can do edge touch ups whenever you want without having to wait. It is actually stone shaped (as opposed to koppa, which are non-regular shapes) but the dimensions are smaller than the 8K. 

(mm) (l) (h) (w)
8K : 210 x 23 x 75
Oouchi: 182 x 22 x 64

My belief is that even for lower grit natural stones-- I like that edge and I feel it slides through food better than the equivalent synthetic grit or even higher.

When I had the 8K, I wouldn't really use it after I finished on the 1k/6K combo stone from JKI. I didn't really feel the edge helped much in terms of performance . . . and it was extra time to deburr and get the edge nice and finished, because the 8K still can cut a new bevel. I liked that the 6K was harder.

Otherwise, the 8K performs the role of higher grit synthetic, non-polishing edge-maker really well.


----------



## Grunt173 (Nov 18, 2018)

Well,I have the Gesshin 400,2000 and the Gesshin sythetic natual and they are wonderful stones that I enjoy using.I can see no reason that the Gesshin 8000 wouldn't live up to par. However,with that said,I just sharpened a bunch of knives with my Gesshin 400,Bester 1200 ,a Rika 5k and finished with just a few passes with my Kitayama 8000 grit stone. I usually just stop at the Rika or my Synthetic Natural but on these knives I wanted to get the 8000 wet.It did a fine job.The Gesshin will too.I don't see where it is necessary to spend a lot of knife to stone time with the 8000 grit.I don't like to refine my edge to the point where I get rid of those nice teeth I like to put on the edge.That's why I only do a few light passes with the 8000 grit.My Kitty 8000 is a magnesia base stone so it is finicky on drying and if not dried slowly,could get cracks.I am not sure how the Gesshin is made but I think it is better at drying without worry of cracks.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 18, 2018)

Refcast, yes. That is an awesome recommendation. Thank you!


----------



## refcast (Nov 18, 2018)

Now the last thing is the stone is pretty muddy, which may or may not be your thing cause you gotta find something to do with leftover mud or wash it off. The mud can be used to finger polish on the knife -- you can use cork or rubber or a cloth and polish surfaces, which is pretty cool. But it will release grit/cut differently. 

To use the stone, add water until it darkens and you have a little water that stays on the surface and sharpen. More water means the sharpening takes place on the stones peaks and valleys. Just enough water to form a viscous film means you float and only sharpen on the peaks, and the peaks are smaller and more uniform. This happens because the viscous film acts to make the scratch pattern finer and more shallow. Too little water and it will feel too sticky, or dusty, and jerky in motion while sharpening.

The higher performance Jnats have more extreme desirable characteristics or a more complete set of characteristics: 
they are finer, cut faster, leave a nicer or more uniform finish, are bigger, are prettier, work on harder steels, are softer yet fine at the same time.

I tried the Jnats at JKI a while back and they still feel nice compared to the more expensive ones I have. It doesn't really matter to me much; if I had only a muddy finished from JKI, I would be fine . . . my continued curiosity didn't really get me anywhere nicer, functionally, in razors and in knives. 

Uhh, people recommend to not soak jnats, so don't do that. Temperature cycles and wet/dry cycles can lead to cracking, so people say to avoid those, but as a weird aside, the older synthetic stones that I let go through these cycles cut better in speed, feel, and finish than ones I let soak, so that's something I experienced as well, however damaging it is to the stone. 

You can check out Jon doing a comparison of synthetic (gesshin 4k) and natural (suita). The suita should be a little harder than the oouchi.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 18, 2018)

Do I use a stone flattener on it?


----------



## daveb (Nov 18, 2018)

robenco15 said:


> Yeah I'm not interested in spending $300-$1200 on a stone. I'm just a home cook.



The majority of JNat users are "just home cooks" - It's an expensive and time consuming rabbit hole that I like to poke into but am careful not to slip in. 

Will suggest to you that a 6K stone (or in your case the 5K Rika) is as fine as you will find effective. The 8K for me was most effective on single bevel Yani and Usaba and as a prelude to a JNat. If you're looking to play with more stones then one of the synthetic naturals from JKI or JNS are a nice addition.


----------



## refcast (Nov 18, 2018)

You can if you want. . . and if dishing becomes a problem for you. 

But many people do not for the finer stones because they dish much more slowly than the lower grits, and dishing is usually a problem when there's heavy stone wear-- again for lower grit stones, largely 2k and below. 

Flatten it if the stone doesn't come flat.. . but it should. . . and all natural stones I've bought have. You might also hear about nagura and diamond plates to start slurry -- that's only for hard stones when the cutting action is too slow. Because the stone is softer, it will cut immediately. It also won't chip knives. . . just makes sure that if you somehow get hair or sand on the stone, to take it off if you see it or feel it while sharpening.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 18, 2018)

OP...the oouchi is a nice jnat. I’m not real into jnats myself but I found it to be quite easy to use. You can always just reach out to Jon about questions comparing the jki 8k and oouchi. Good luck with that.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 18, 2018)

daveb said:


> The majority of JNat users are "just home cooks" - It's an expensive and time consuming rabbit hole that I like to poke into but am careful not to slip in.
> 
> Will suggest to you that a 6K stone (or in your case the 5K Rika) is as fine as you will find effective. The 8K for me was most effective on single bevel Yani and Usaba and as a prelude to a JNat. If you're looking to play with more stones then one of the synthetic naturals from JKI or JNS are a nice addition.



Thanks. Experiences/thoughts on the Oouchi? Looks like the direction I’ll be going.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 18, 2018)

I’m not qualified to speak with authority on jnats 
But many of them take some experience and know how to work with. Oouchi was straight forward. Leaves a crazy good edge, feedback felt wonderful.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 18, 2018)

labor of love said:


> I’m not qualified to speak with authority on jnats
> But many of them take some experience and know how to work with. Oouchi was straight forward. Leaves a crazy good edge, feedback felt wonderful.



Awesome.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 18, 2018)

For real though-pm Jon or shoot him an email. He’s really great about pairing up the right product with the right customer. 8k synth may be better suited for you.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 18, 2018)

Yep I emailed him.


----------



## daveb (Nov 18, 2018)

labor of love said:


> I’m not qualified to speak with authority on jnats
> But many of them take some experience and know how to work with. Oouchi was straight forward. Leaves a crazy good edge, feedback felt wonderful.



I think I bought this from Craig. Oouchi is straight forward and leaves.......


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 18, 2018)

Not sure if this makes a difference with that Oouchi or the Gesshin 8k but these are my knives:

300mm Toyama Kasumi Sujihiki
240mm Konosuke HD2 Gyuto
150mm TF Nashiji Petty
Shun Classic Paring

Zwilling JA Henckels Four Star Knives


----------



## HRC_64 (Nov 18, 2018)

None of those knives really scream out for 8k finish...

HD2 is tool steel and probably cannot take>5k
Suji is meat cutter and usually finished ~3-5k for teeth
TF can take refinement (its wht1) but its a petty knive...
...so not really useful...etc

I'll let other experts chime as I'm sure others have differnt opinions.
in but its worth thinking about what you really want to do to those knives,
and think about if the stone is strategically suited to you end use/s.

Good luck either way of course.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 19, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> None of those knives really scream out for 8k finish...
> 
> HD2 is tool steel and probably cannot take>5k
> Suji is meat cutter and usually finished ~3-5k for teeth
> ...



Ugh I must have been half asleep. I completely forgot about one. Here is what I own:

300mm Toyama Kasumi Sujihiki Blue Steel
240mm Konosuke HD2 Gyuto
210mm Gesshin Kagekiyo White#2
150mm TF Nashiji Petty White #1
Shun Classic Paring VG-10

Zwilling JA Henckels Four Star Knives

Now even with the addition of the Gesshin Kagekiyo your point may still stand, but I wanted to be sure that was added. Sorry about that and thanks for your reply. 

I thought you wanted Sujihikis to be incredibly sharp for fish as well. The Konosuke really can’t benefit from an 8k?


----------



## refcast (Nov 19, 2018)

I think that the Konosuke should be able to take 8k and have some improvement. . . at least in terms of refinement. If that's the right thing for the task at hand, that's different consideration. I can coax the (*****) steel of a Henckels santoku to take and keep a 6k edge that feels more refined than a 1K edge, but it took some practice and some other stuff (stupid experiential stuff).

*I like the steel for what it is though. Just in relative, casual, patronizing terms.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 19, 2018)

refcast said:


> I think that the Konosuke should be able to take 8k and have some improvement. . . at least in terms of refinement. If that's the right thing for the task at hand, that's different consideration. I can coax the (*****) steel of a Henckels santoku to take and keep a 6k edge that feels more refined than a 1K edge, but it took some practice and some other stuff (stupid experiential stuff).
> 
> *I like the steel for what it is though. Just in relative, casual, patronizing terms.



And when you say "take the 8k" you're referring to both the Gesshin 8k and the Oouchi as the Oouchi is a 8k stone, just not in actual name?

Between the Konosuke, Kagekiyo, and T-F, that is 3 knives that benefit from the 8k. I'm still confused as to why putting the Sujihiki on the 8k wouldn't be beneficial. The Henckels I probably wouldn't bother with, but I wanted to list them for completion's sake. I'll be sure to talk this over with Jon at JKI too. Thanks!


----------



## refcast (Nov 19, 2018)

Yeah I mean 8K in general, assuming the stone actually cuts at that grit instead of polishing over and clogging, which can happen with very cheap stones (at least on one I had).

Many people here like lower grit than 8K for convenience and cutting feedback. That is, making sure the knife actually cuts into the food instead of being overpolished and sliding off, which is a big issue when cutting though sinewy meats. And I guess the feeling of floating and tearing/cutting through food as you slide the knife. But you can decide what you like. I do like to finish on the jnats, and they are around 8k or whatever (or higher), and I find them fine for whatever task I'm doing. It takes less force to slide the knife through, and it doesn't slip so long as I actually still cut in an edge. 

So yeah, try it out. I mean you can try something somewhat similar right now, by stropping on newspaper or any smooth paper, really, and see if you like that extra refinement on your knife. Strop slow and with different amounts of cushion (or not) on the newspaper and see how that changes the edge.

But otherwise, most prefer not to take regular german stainless past 1K because it's not worth the edge that steel obtains.


----------



## Grunt173 (Nov 19, 2018)

I am of the belief that the Rika 5k is more like a 3 or 4k stone,which is probably why I like it so well for finishing.So,knowing that,twer it me,I'd check out one of Jon's 6k stones instead of a 8k. Even though I already have an 8k,I have thought seriously of sending an order into JKI for one of those 6ks,just don't know which one yet.If I do that though,my 8k just might become more obsolete then it already is.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 19, 2018)

I’ve owned both jki 6ks. I like them both. But they do different things. The soaker is softer, faster and feels better.
The splash and go is harder, polishes and leaves a very nice finish along with sharpening.


----------



## Grunt173 (Nov 19, 2018)

labor of love said:


> I’ve owned both jki 6ks. I like them both. But they do different things. The soaker is softer, faster and feels better.
> The splash and go is harder, polishes and leaves a very nice finish along with sharpening.


I thank you for that Labor. I think I like the idea of the soaker feeling better.I like to keep my sharpening enjoyable or I won't have a desire to sharpen . I like keeping it fun.


----------



## valgard (Nov 19, 2018)

refcast said:


> Now the last thing is the stone is pretty muddy, which may or may not be your thing cause you gotta find something to do with leftover mud or wash it off. The mud can be used to finger polish on the knife -- you can use cork or rubber or a cloth and polish surfaces, which is pretty cool. But it will release grit/cut differently.
> 
> To use the stone, add water until it darkens and you have a little water that stays on the surface and sharpen. More water means the sharpening takes place on the stones peaks and valleys. Just enough water to form a viscous film means you float and only sharpen on the peaks, and the peaks are smaller and more uniform. This happens because the viscous film acts to make the scratch pattern finer and more shallow. Too little water and it will feel too sticky, or dusty, and jerky in motion while sharpening.
> 
> ...


I lost sight of the OP when you posted this video and have been drooling at Jon's suita since then [emoji23].


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 19, 2018)

refcast said:


> Many people here like lower grit than 8K for convenience and cutting feedback. That is, making sure the knife actually cuts into the food instead of being overpolished and sliding off, which is a big issue when cutting though sinewy meats. And I guess the feeling of floating and tearing/cutting through food as you slide the knife. But you can decide what you like. I do like to finish on the jnats, and they are around 8k or whatever (or higher), and I find them fine for whatever task I'm doing. It takes less force to slide the knife through, and it doesn't slip so long as I actually still cut in an edge.



Is that why my Kagekiyo after doing a great sharpening session slides over folded paper towel when I try to test its sharpness? But then slices food no problem? Oddest thing. 

So are we saying that JNat isn’t a good idea anymore? A 6k stone instead? I gotta give Jon a call.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 19, 2018)

robenco15 said:


> Is that why my Kagekiyo after doing a great sharpening session slides over folded paper towel when I try to test its sharpness? But then slices food no problem? Oddest thing.
> 
> So are we saying that JNat isn’t a good idea anymore? A 6k stone instead? I gotta give Jon a call.


Okay, basically all the stones we’ve been talking about are good stones. What you need to figure out is what you want out of a finishing stone. There’s attributes like great feedback, fast cutting, dish resistance that you can place in some order of importance. Then there’s the question of whether or not you prefer splash and go or soaker or if you don’t care either way(personally I don’t care).
Figure out what means the most to you and talk to Jon. Or you can talk to me but Jon’s answers will be more approximate.
Side note:8k edges are fun but so many people prefer to stay in the 4-6k range for multiple reasons. I believe even Jon usually finishes gyutos around 6k when professionally sharpening gyutos for customers.


----------



## refcast (Nov 19, 2018)

valgard said:


> I lost sight of the OP when you posted this video and have been drooling at Jon's suita since then [emoji23].



Dude you have massive stone lust. TheJapanStone videos do for me though. But it's really interesting to see "desirable" stone qualities being different from vendor to vendor, video to video. But yeah, that suita makes a nice gel-like sharpening swarf its cool.



robenco15 said:


> Is that why my Kagekiyo after doing a great sharpening session slides over folded paper towel when I try to test its sharpness? But then slices food no problem? Oddest thing.
> 
> So are we saying that JNat isn’t a good idea anymore? A 6k stone instead? I gotta give Jon a call.



Jnat is fine -- cutting tests for food, paper towels, standing hair, cardboard, etc are all different and rely on different edge characteristics. For instance a microchipped edge may still cut food great but suck and catch while cutting paper. Or an edge doesn't immediately split hair but cuts through food like no ones business. Or an edge that whittles hair but struggles to cut into food.

Cutting paper towels does rely on edge stability, so you might want a microbevel for that, for me it helped.

Also for finishing sharpnening, go supeeerrrr slowww and ligggghtttttt for your final strokes. You could gradually go down to that. I found this gets me the best edge. And if you want maxxxximum agression, do edge forward strokes, perpendicular to the edge, section by section. Wheras if you want a continuous edge with no teeth for maximum refinement, do parallel to the edge.

This is if you want to tune your edge character. . . cause the stones you chose are good stones. They meet all the necessary criteria for good and even great.

But in regular bulk sharpening it doesn't matter.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 19, 2018)

This^^^
My most common sharpening mistake is NOT using light pressure on finishing stones.


----------



## valgard (Nov 19, 2018)

refcast said:


> Dude you have massive stone lust.



[emoji850]


----------



## Ruso (Nov 19, 2018)

I only had good experience with Gesshin soakers. I have no doubt 8K soaker is a great stone.


----------



## daveb (Nov 19, 2018)

refcast said:


> Dude you have massive stone lust.



Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I think most go through pretty much the same thing when first rubbing steel on rocks and steel gets sharp. When I started I was working on the knife blade of a waiters corkscrew - trying to "improve" it up to 8K. Found out a friend was working on a pizza wheel at 20K.


----------



## JBroida (Nov 19, 2018)

hey... i think sara respond to your e-mail before i saw it... let me know if you have any follow up questions


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 19, 2018)

JBroida said:


> hey... i think sara respond to your e-mail before i saw it... let me know if you have any follow up questions



Never got an email. Called earlier and left my number.


----------



## JBroida (Nov 19, 2018)

yup... just saw the note on my desk and also found the email... just sent a response. I can call you tomorrow if you'd prefer though.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 19, 2018)

JBroida said:


> yup... just saw the note on my desk and also found the email... just sent a response. I can call you tomorrow if you'd prefer though.



Got it! Will follow up through email. Thanks!


----------



## refcast (Nov 19, 2018)

daveb said:


> Not that there's anything wrong with that.
> 
> I think most go through pretty much the same thing when first rubbing steel on rocks and steel gets sharp. When I started I was working on the knife blade of a waiters corkscrew - trying to "improve" it up to 8K. Found out a friend was working on a pizza wheel at 20K.



I meant it as a joke, and sorry for not being clear that I was joking about myself, too.

I mentioned liking TheJapanStone, and if there is any stone enthusiast on the internet, he's pretty far up there. Friends with mine owners and family, characterizing stone skins, microscopic viewing of finishes left by stones, deep woodworking enthusiast, huge compendium of stone blog posts and videos, huge inventory of stonessssss, some of the most expensive I've ever seen in English, aside from Japan-Tool.

And some damn exotic planes he sharpens. . . he would casually mention, oh I'm sharpening this togo reigou plane . . . on like a nakayama suita and you get to watch the swarf and steel just shedddd offff. I have too many stones from him that I don't use cause I'm a bit more practical now with my time.


----------



## foody518 (Nov 20, 2018)

robenco15 said:


> Is that why my Kagekiyo after doing a great sharpening session slides over folded paper towel when I try to test its sharpness? But then slices food no problem? Oddest thing.



Based on your current stones, I would look to technique/improving sharpening technique for that outcome. Maybe inconsistent angle holding, rounding over the edge, or not complete deburring.



valgard said:


> I lost sight of the OP when you posted this video and have been drooling at Jon's suita since then [emoji23].



Got the right priorities


----------



## Hanmak17 (Nov 20, 2018)

robenco15 said:


> I own a Beston 500, Bester 1200, and a Suhiro Rika 5000. Looking to add Jon’s Gesshin 8k to that lineup. Any reason why this wouldn’t be a good idea? Thanks!
> 
> https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/products/gesshin-8000-grit-stone



I have a Naniwa Jyunpaku (Snow White - 8k) that I am getting ready to sell. Have collected a handful of Jnats and it never gets used anymore. It's the older version and barely used. Probably sell for $80 plus shipping. PM me if interested. Its a great stone and has a good reputation, search the forum there's a lot of info on it.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 20, 2018)

Hanmak17 said:


> I have a Naniwa Jyunpaku (Snow White - 8k) that I am getting ready to sell. Have collected a handful of Jnats and it never gets used anymore. It's the older version and barely used. Probably sell for $80 plus shipping. PM me if interested. Its a great stone and has a good reputation, search the forum there's a lot of info on it.



Thanks. After talking to Jon today I think I’m going to hold off on any stones at all though. I seems to have what I need.


----------



## JBroida (Nov 20, 2018)

See how awesome I am at making sales... I’ll be swimming in money in no time if I keep this up


----------



## labor of love (Nov 21, 2018)

robenco15 said:


> Thanks. After talking to Jon today I think I’m going to hold off on any stones at all though. I seems to have what I need.


Only buying the stuff you need is a rare virtue around here. Good move.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 21, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Only buying the stuff you need is a rare virtue around here. Good move.



Yeah you should give my wife a call and let her know that in fact I am practicing self control.

That being said, I have a sharpening stone sized gap that I feel I still need to fill with something, haha. Christmas is coming. Gotta find something else...


----------



## labor of love (Nov 21, 2018)

robenco15 said:


> Yeah you should give my wife a call and let her know that in fact I am practicing self control.
> 
> That being said, I have a sharpening stone sized gap that I feel I still need to fill with something, haha. Christmas is coming. Gotta find something else...


Stone fixer or stone flattener?


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 21, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Stone fixer or stone flattener?



I have a stone flattener and not interested in a stone fixer. I’ll take a look at Jon’s website. Maybe I’ll be able to find something else.


----------



## Grunt173 (Nov 21, 2018)

robenco15 said:


> I have a stone flattener and not interested in a stone fixer. I’ll take a look at Jon’s website. Maybe I’ll be able to find something else.


I like spending other people's money,please let me know if you need any help.


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 21, 2018)

Grunt173 said:


> I like spending other people's money,please let me know if you need any help.



Have a go. Hobbies include cooking and golf.


----------



## daveb (Nov 21, 2018)

Jon's discouraged me in the past when I wanted to buy stones I didn't need. Said something to the effect that I should learn to use the ones I have before buying new. The thing to do is go on the website after hours and order it up. He'll never know


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 21, 2018)

daveb said:


> Jon's discouraged me in the past when I wanted to buy stones I didn't need. Said something to the effect that I should learn to use the ones I have before buying new. The thing to do is go on the website after hours and order it up. He'll never know



Right? Who is he to tell me how to spend my money?


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 22, 2018)

Grunt173 said:


> I like spending other people's money,please let me know if you need any help.



Happy Thanksgiving! Broke the tip off my T-F 150mm Nashiji because I’m an idiot. What’d ya got? 

And yeah I’ll fix it, but the blade height was about as short as I wanted it.


----------



## foody518 (Nov 23, 2018)

robenco15 said:


> Happy Thanksgiving! Broke the tip off my T-F 150mm Nashiji because I’m an idiot. What’d ya got?
> 
> And yeah I’ll fix it, but the blade height was about as short as I wanted it.


Is the break in such a way that you can just do a repair from the spine? Then you might not have to appreciably touch blade height/thickness


----------



## robenco15 (Nov 23, 2018)

foody518 said:


> Is the break in such a way that you can just do a repair from the spine? Then you might not have to appreciably touch blade height/thickness



It was and I did. I posted another thread about it.


----------

