# JNat recommendation - medium-fine finisher



## Choppin (May 22, 2017)

Hi all -

I'm planning my first JNat purchase and was initially looking for a medium-fine finisher. Something to use after a Gesshin 2000 or JNS 1000 as my last stone in a 2-stone routine set-up, also for touch ups. 3.5-6k grit range, I don't think I need to go much higher than that for now and I like a toothy edge. 

Something softer, that creates mud easily - as I understand would be better for JNat beginners - and leaves a toothy edge. Under US$250. Would be used on a Toyama and a Shig mostly. 

These are my initial options:
Aoto
Aizu - maybe too hard / not so user friendly for beginners?
Takashima - there's a lv 2.5 at JNS that would be my best choice I think... 

Am I missing something? JNS has some inexpensive Aiiwatani Koppas, would these fit my purpose? Or too fine to jump after a 1000-2000 synth?

Thank's in advance!


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## K813zra (May 22, 2017)

Well, I have not been at this as long as the others but I do have two of those.

The Aoto is most likely to be closer to the low end of the numbers you quote. All three of mine are soft and muddy and in the 2-4k range, most closer to 2k. All have great feedback and medium abrasion speed. The Tanba from Watanabe leaves the cleanest looking finish. The Kouzaki leaves the smoothest edge but not by much. The aono is the fastest and leaves the most toothy edge. 

Aizu, I have two and yeah they are harder but not hard like a finishing stone. One, a small stone, is much softer than the other. They are a bit more tricky in that it takes awhile to kick up some slurry but I would not say that they are overly difficult to learn. I find the smaller softer stone to leave an edge just south of your bottom end and the larger harder one to leave an edge maybe at or just above it. 3-4k range as you said. Both are fairly quick cutting stones. Both of mine seem dense and are not overly thirsty but I have heard others say that they had a thirsty Aizu so YMMV.

I have not really ventured into the realm of finishers yet. I do have a few harder stones that I find too refined for a gyuto but that is neither here nor there. From my perception of the finishing stones that I have used and the information give to me while searching for more I figure the Takashima is going to start at the top end of your search and go higher. 6k+ When I started asking questions like this one of the suggestions was for me to look into Uchigumori. While I have not bit that bullet yet, maybe it is something for you to keep in mind. 

No worries, I am sure one of the more experienced regulars will be along to help! Good luck in your search.


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## foody518 (May 22, 2017)

JKI Oouchi can be had for $200 USD. It's a little finer than the grit range you state, but the Aiiwatani Koppas Maksim has are finer than that too, and IMO you'd want to give them a bridge or some heavy slurry boost if bridging from 1k or aggressive 2k synth, or use in such a way that you're okay with not actually fully reaching the fineness of those stones. 
The one Aizu I have is a fairly dense feeling stone that does not particularly self mud, nor will it register on the 'creamier' side of things. Maybe a softer and lower grit one more on the 3k end of things could?
Have you ever used a Suehiro Rika? Or are you specifically looking at splash and go and naturals here?


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## K813zra (May 22, 2017)

foody518 said:


> JKI Oouchi can be had for $200 USD. It's a little finer than the grit range you state, but the Aiiwatani Koppas Maksim has are finer than that too, and IMO you'd want to give them a bridge or some heavy slurry boost if bridging from 1k or aggressive 2k synth, or use in such a way that you're okay with not actually fully reaching the fineness of those stones.
> The one Aizu I have is a fairly dense feeling stone that does not particularly self mud, nor will it register on the 'creamier' side of things. Maybe a softer and lower grit one more on the 3k end of things could?
> Have you ever used a Suehiro Rika? Or are you specifically looking at splash and go and naturals here?



My softer Aizu is much softer than the other and it still does not auto slurry nor does it feel creamy. It does not feel like glass either. More like a very hard chalk? Well, something like that. 

Your post gets me thinking, though. Maybe the OP will actually like the Oouchi if jumping directly from a 1k because of it not reaching its full potential finesse?


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## Choppin (May 22, 2017)

foody518 - Thank's. I want to try a natural stone, so I'm looking specifically for that. I'm currently using a JNS 6000 as my last stone and I want something to replace it in the progression (after a 1000-2000 synth)

K813zra - Thank's. I will take a look into the Uchigumori as well, wasn't on my radar. 

From your descriptions, I guess an Aizu is not exactly what I'm looking for, in terms of hardness / mud / ease of use... And the softer ones would maybe be close too my Gesshin 2000 in terms of abrasion and finish. An aoto is a better fit in terms of hardness / mud, but maybe also too close to the 2000...

Regarding the Oochi, I like the description on JKI... and the medium-sized is US$150. Can anyone compare these with Takashima, Hideriyama (also from JKI), and Aiiwatani Koppa from JNS? Using any of them without reaching the full potential finesse is also an interesting idea!


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## KimBronnum (May 22, 2017)

@Choppin. The Aiiwatani would be fine after the 6000. If you prefer to skip the 6000, a softer (like LV2,5) Takashima or a Hakka would be fine, too. The JNS koppas are usually very usable and fairly prized IMO. 
- Kim


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## foody518 (May 22, 2017)

The Lvl 3 Aiiwatani Koppa I have is finer and harder than my Oouchi
If Maksim finds some lvl2-2.5 (by his rating system), that might be similar. 

If you're going to be doing some wide bevel polishing I'd recommend the large over the medium for the extra stone width. I have the large with no base, but upon reflection, should have paid the extra $10 and gotten the version mounted on a base

From the Oouchi listing on JKI website-
"Like the new Hideriyama we have introduced, these are similar to our takashima awasedo. They are equally muddy, about the same in terms of hardness (a little softer actually, but close), and about the same in terms of finish. I have found them to leave a slightly smoother looking finish, and a bit more contrast on kasumi finishes. They are a bit more porous than the takashima awasedo."


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## Choppin (May 22, 2017)

@KimBronnum - Thank's, I guess a lv2.5 Hakka or Takashima would be better than the Aiiwatani as I would like to skip the 6000 synth. A Hakka Koppa seems like a great first JNat, ~US$100 at JNS, too bad they are all sold out...

@foody518 - Well the large Oouchi is still in my budget, could do that. How would you describe it in terms of ease of use, slurry production (fast, or requires a nagura?), toothy or polished edge, etc?


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## foody518 (May 22, 2017)

I haven't typically seen Hakka of nice width in a $200 or so price range. Have a couple of those 20-30mm off-cuts from JNS, from what I've used it's a lower grit and visually scratchier finish than Oouchi

I wrote a bit about my thoughts on the JKI Oouchi here
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...d-starter-jnat?p=489210&viewfull=1#post489210
It can self slurry, and personally, I would have a hard time describing something that can't self-slurry as 'muddy'


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## Choppin (May 22, 2017)

The Hakka I was refering to is one of these:
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/hakka-koppa-lv-2-5-a552/


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## foody518 (May 22, 2017)

Choppin said:


> The Hakka I was refering to is one of these:
> http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/hakka-koppa-lv-2-5-a552/



I almost bought one like that haha. I think he's put up one this year with nice width dimensions like that which wasn't a full sized stone in the $200-400+ range, and it sold within the hour
I guess I should have amended to say 'haven't typically seen them available/in stock/purchasable'


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## Choppin (May 22, 2017)

foody518 said:


> I almost bought one like that haha. I think he's put up one this year with nice width dimensions like that which wasn't a full sized stone in the $200-400+ range, and it sold within the hour
> I guess I should have amended to say 'haven't typically seen them available/in stock/purchasable'



Oh I see. Seems like a good deal really!


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## foody518 (May 22, 2017)

Get on the email list and stalk your email


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## Krassi (May 22, 2017)

Aiiwatanis are kind of nice. i sold my fullsize Aiiwatani Karasu with hyper Namazu and it gave a nice edge! The yellow ones are much softer and good for anything and super easy to use.. well i did not like the edge it left so i sold my koppa.
But there are so many cool softer stones around that its hard for me tell them apart.. the more red the more soft and Muddy often.


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## Mute-on (May 22, 2017)

JNS Takashima or Hideriyama (koppa) 2.5. The Aiiwatani are much harder and finer, even at 3.0, as others have said.


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## Choppin (May 24, 2017)

So I asked Shinichi for a recommendation on this. 

He pointed me to the Amakusa #12 in the link below. According to him, it starts at ~2k grit and gets finer as you sharpen. Easy to use according to him and can be used after my Gesshin 2000 as a last stone for a toothy edge. 
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/amakusa.htm

Does anyone have experience with this stone? Seems a bit cheap at 35 dollars...


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## foody518 (May 24, 2017)

Interesting. I haven't used an Amakusa or Binsui that I could conservatively rate as significantly over 2k, but obviously haven't tried near so many stones as Watanabe san. If you want toothy why not stop at the Gesshin 2k?


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## Choppin (May 24, 2017)

According so Shinichi, the #12 is a "hard" Amakusa, which would explain its 2k or so grit

The Gesshin 2k leaves a pretty good finish for a medium grit stone TBH, and regarding edge toothyness I could stop there (I actually don't spend too much time on the JNS 6000 after it, just do some quick sharpening and stropping with very light pressure). But I want to try out a JNat and, using mostly a Shig KU Nakiri and Toyama Kasumi knives, I believe the finish I could get with a JNat would be a great match for these knives.


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## K813zra (May 24, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Interesting. I haven't used an Amakusa or Binsui that I could conservatively rate as significantly over 2k, but obviously haven't tried near so many stones as Watanabe san. If you want toothy why not stop at the Gesshin 2k?



Yeah, my Amakusa might be around the 1200 mark give or take, take is more likely. It leaves fangs, not teeth.


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## Badgertooth (May 25, 2017)

And Toyama is quite a particular variant of blue 2, he seems to push it quite hard in terms of HT, and matching it to the right stone was a little trickier than I thought. It loves Aizu and slightly harder stones for the edge. But then maruoyama aren't particularly hard and it really sings with these.


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## TheLimpWhisk (May 25, 2017)

How does the koppa play into the medium/fine range? After say a 3k stone?


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## Choppin (May 25, 2017)

@Badgertooth - hah, I just googled Maruoyama and came upon your thread comparing it to other stones. Loved the description. I found one at Bernal but its close to US$400, a bit out of my budget (I will look better at other retailers). How would you estimate its grit?

I guess the main point for me here is: can I jump from the Gesshin 2k stone to a Jnat in the 6-8k (or higher) grit range - like a Takashima lv 2.5 from JNS or JKI's Oouchi/Hideriyama? Or would an Aoto or Aizu do better after the 2k? Would it be a bit redundant to use an Aoto/Aizu after the G2k since they are not so far in terms of grit (I understand JNat don't have a "fixed" grit, but anyway)?


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## foody518 (May 25, 2017)

@choppin so are you wanting a certain type of visual finish as well? Because that hard of an Amakusa dunno how accommodating it'll be on visuals
Aizu isn't going to have the muddy feel you want. Aoto are variable and you're probably gonna need to do some digging to find the one that fits for your purposes
I like using a stone in between or jumping from a higher grit synth because it saves time on the finer stone. Maybe would make the straight jump if I'm in a mood where quickly getting to the full fineness of the Oouchi doesn't matter. At any rate i guess, be more active about deburring as much as possible after the Gesshin 2K and minimize your chances of feeling of any small crunch or crumble on the fine Jnat

@TheLimpWhisk which koppa?


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## TheLimpWhisk (May 25, 2017)

@foody518 The AIIWATANI KOPPA LV 3 is what I had in mind, the one's on JNS. What kind of refinement are you gaining from this, and what is an achievable in terms of grit?


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## Choppin (May 25, 2017)

@foody518 - TBH my priority is the edge quality (toothy), but a hazy Kasumi finish would be great. The ideal would be a stone that can give me both - I guess that wouldn't be the Amakusa...

How exactly would I use the Oouchi in order not to achieve its full fineness? Wash out the mud from time to time, so that it doesn't break down that much? I like the idea of keeping my set up simple (for now), jumping from the 2k to the Jnat, and later on add a stone between both. Not worried too much about saving time TBH


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## Badgertooth (May 25, 2017)

Hey, if you don't mind a dropped corner from a stone that broke in shipping you can have an Ikarashi, there's still plenty of usable surface area. I will speak to the recipient to see if we can arrange it. That should see you through after Gesshin 2K and free you up cash and headspace wise to decide on a finer grit


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## foody518 (May 25, 2017)

TheLimpWhisk said:


> @foody518 The AIIWATANI KOPPA LV 3 is what I had in mind, the one's on JNS. What kind of refinement are you gaining from this, and what is an achievable in terms of grit?



Not too big a fan of trying to relate to synthetic grit range on account of the different feel and edges as you go finer and finer. Let's say if Oouchi Softer Takashima and Hideriyama are roughly equated to 6-8k+ grit, expect Maksim's lvl 3 Aiiwatani koppa to easily be a stage finer than how those finish edges. And his lvl 4 Aiiwatani koppa plus tomonagura slurry is kickass


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## Choppin (May 25, 2017)

@badgertooth - wow, would love to try that Ikarashi. Leave let me know if it works out with the recipient. Thank's!


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## Matus (May 25, 2017)

It would be a long shot, but I would try to find some smaller Ohira Suita. From the (not that many I digress) natural stones I have tried the Ohira Suita (from Maxim at about twice your budget) felt the nicest and leaves a fantastic refined yet bity edge. Best used after about 6000 grit stone


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## TheLimpWhisk (May 25, 2017)

Thanks for the info foody, would you use it after a 3-4k stone, or after say a 6k stone?


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## TheLimpWhisk (May 25, 2017)

Ohira suita seems to be where its at for many people


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## Choppin (May 25, 2017)

@Matus - an Ohira Suita is in my wish list as well... I figured I would be better off starting with a softter stone though. Eyes open for a small Ohira Suita in the meantime...


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## Krassi (May 26, 2017)

Ohira Suita, Okudo Suita, Nakayama Suita or Maruayma Suita.. works all pretty good.
The more vintage and older the stone the better often.


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## mikaelsan (May 26, 2017)

I have no way near the experience with nats as some of the guys here, but I did recently get the aiwattani koppa lvl 3 you considered as well, with tomo nagura, just wanted to point out that the nagura might be able to polish a little as well, this is what my iron cladding looks like with it


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## Matus (May 26, 2017)

The Ohira I have used briefly was lv 3.0 and was definitely not too hard. So if you find an Ohira that is around that hardness you should have no problem.


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## Choppin (Jun 5, 2017)

Thank's guys. Badgertooth was kind enough to set me up with a Maruoyama - can't wait to try it.

I have another basic question. Supose I'm going to sharpen my Toyama (or any other Kasumi knife). It isn't particularly dull or too scratched, I just want to make it sharp and restore the kasumi finish / improve contrast. 

My plan is to start on the Gesshin 2000, sharpening only a small area near the edge (1-3mm), and then progress to 1-2 Jnats, working on a larger area (going over the clading for finish / contrast). Does this make sense, or should I also use the Gesshin 2000 on this larger area? I don't want to thin the knife, but maybe the G2k could help flatten the blade and make the job easier for the Jnats, idk...

Thank's


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