# I can't get really sharp



## guari (Oct 19, 2016)

So I love cooking and have loved knives from a long time. I discovered Japanese knives this last year and it's been addictive, if not hard on the wallet :lol2:

Anyhow, I moved onto J's because I was frustrated with blunt knives in the kitchen, I decided I'd go for it.

Now, it's all been a learning and discovery thing, using the whetstones, getting the knives sharp. But it is so frustrating, because I simply don't achieve an edge that will cut hair. And I'm sure it's not because of subpar knives, as they are lovely. Don't get me wrong, I get them sharp enough to slice open a finger easily (not that it ever happened, that's for another topic). But they just won't shave hair of my arm no matter what. They rather pick up superficial dermis but not the hair.

Yesterday I received a Masakage Yuki Honesuki for my chickens and guess what? I open up the package, and voila, it shaves hair from my arm. 

For instance, my Gyuto, I will take it to the 2000 stone, do one side until I can feel a burr (hear it when scraped), then I go for the other side of the knife until I raise a burr there. I use the sharpie marker to see that I'm indeed hitting the edge. 

Once the burr was lifted on the second side, I go to the 5000 stone, then hit it on the first side until I raise a burr (barely perceptible as it is a 5000 stone though), then the other side until I feel a burr, then trailing edge side swaps to deburr, and that's it. I have a 8000 stone in the mail but at the moment 5000 is the highest I have. I rarely use the 600 stone as I never let the knives get that dull. 

I have seen the youtube videos on how to sharpen single and double bevels, I know I'm hitting the right spots as I can see the sharpie marker, I let my whetstones soak for 5 minutes, I flatten them before sharpening. My stones are generic japanese whetstones from amazon, and knives range from za-18, white #2, and AS.

But then, I can't shave hair off after I resharpened them from factory.

Anybody have any idea or chance a guess at what I may be doing wrong? At which stone grit can you shave hair arm off? I can't even with the 5000 stone. 

Do you always have to go to a low grit stone (say the 600) when sharpening? That's the only thing I don't do regularly? Is it possible I may have messed with the edge angle and that's why it's sharp, but can't shave hair?

Thanks for any pointers!


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## chinacats (Oct 19, 2016)

arm hair is a pretty much useless test...that said, you probably are just rounding your edges...or never actually creating an apex...or not getting rid of the burr;-)

skip random videos and watch these...patience is key here...you'll improve, just need to find your zen

[video=youtube;GB3jkRi1dKs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB&v=GB3jkRi1dKs[/video]


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## Jacob_x (Oct 19, 2016)

2000# is plenty fine enough to shave on. It sounds to me like you are possibly moving to a higher grit too soon. Spend more time on the lower stones, don't just flip the burr once before rushing to a higher grit. Be sure to use gentle pressure also, you could be using too much pressure and fatiguing/crushing your edge. 
Not definite by any means, just a couple ideas!


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## bennyprofane (Oct 19, 2016)

Chinacats, why is armhair a useless test?


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## guari (Oct 19, 2016)

chinacats said:


> arm hair is a pretty much useless test...that said, you probably are just rounding your edges...or never actually creating an apex...or not getting rid of the burr;-)
> 
> skip random videos and watch these...patience is key here...you'll improve, just need to find your zen
> 
> [video=youtube;GB3jkRi1dKs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB&v=GB3jkRi1dKs[/video]



Thanks for the kind reply!

I have thought of those options, rounding or not creating an apex. I think that I should give it a try from the 600 stone and really feel for a big burr. I haven't done such low a grit as the knives haven't gotten that dull, but on the other hand, maybe the edge has gone round so all I'm doing is polishing a round thing..

Thanks for the video. I've seen it and now it's once more. The only thing I do see I do differently is that I only do the sharpening in one direction, and not back and forth. I only do pushing into the edge, lift the knife onto position, and repeat and repeat. I have tried the back and forth and it just doesn't come naturally, I feel as there is too much wobble.


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## foody518 (Oct 19, 2016)

If you're using your 2k stone and going until you can hear/feel the burr scraping then that should be enough. Try doing some edge trailing strokes before moving onto the 5k to weaken the burr more. And arm hair tests can be passed with a less than 5k edge.
With good fast 2k stones you can undo a rounded edge to J-knives/not chunky knives, no need to go to 600 grit
Also give edge trailing sharpening another try (back and forth strokes but mainly trying to apply pressure on the edge trailing side). Especially starting out, by only doing push strokes it's possible you're rounding the apex. It's hard to always place the knife right back at the same angle after every time you lift up, particularly working around the curvature and near the tip

For clarification, can you verify what you mean by pushing into the edge? The edge (as opposed to the spine) leads in the direction of the motion? Or it follows?


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## guari (Oct 19, 2016)

Jacob_x said:


> 2000# is plenty fine enough to shave on. It sounds to me like you are possibly moving to a higher grit too soon. Spend more time on the lower stones, don't just flip the burr once before rushing to a higher grit. Be sure to use gentle pressure also, you could be using too much pressure and fatiguing/crushing your edge.
> Not definite by any means, just a couple ideas!





foody518 said:


> If you're using your 2k stone and going until you can hear/feel the burr scraping then that should be enough. Try doing some edge trailing strokes before moving onto the 5k to weaken the burr more. And arm hair tests can be passed with a less than 5k edge.
> With good fast 2k stones you can undo a rounded edge to J-knives/not chunky knives, no need to go to 600 grit
> Also give edge trailing sharpening another try (back and forth strokes but mainly trying to apply pressure on the edge trailing side). Especially starting out, by only doing push strokes it's possible you're rounding the apex. It's hard to always place the knife right back at the same angle after every time you lift up, particularly working around the curvature and near the tip
> 
> For clarification, can you verify what you mean by pushing into the edge? The edge (as opposed to the spine) leads in the direction of the motion? Or it follows?



Thanks for the insights. Good to know you can shave hair with a 2000. I didn't know that and thought that I could have needed a higher stone for that to happen. Also good to know that a 600 is not always necessary. 

With the pushing to the edge, sorry if it came convoluted. I meant to say that I only sharpen away from the spine, in the direction of the edge. Then I lift, move, place back onto the stone, and repeat. I will give the back and forth another try just for the sake of it. 

I know that there's surely room to improve on my technique, though I don't feel I'm that far off from doing it right. It's just this thing about knowing that I can't replicate the edge qualities as they arrived from factory; for instance, my latest addition cut's hair like butter.


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## foody518 (Oct 19, 2016)

I'm not saying it'll be a totally comfortable shave... But you can do it XD. There are reasons why the razor guys tend to work up very fine abrasives
I would give edge trailing (which is spine leading) another try. And then the other half of the motion is just to return you to the starting place without having to lift the knife off the stone. No need for too much pressure. Want to make sure you're not digging into the stone over and over with edge leading pressure

Keep practicing, you'll get it!
Also when you get to the arm shaving, make sure you can do it on both sides of the knife (that you're able or not able to do it on one side because of folded over burr)


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## panda (Oct 19, 2016)

Because a kitchen knife is for cutting food not shaving hair. you probably have weak steel at the edge and are getting rounded on 5k. Drop to a lower grit and get fresh steel. Don't spend much time on the 5k either.


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## James (Oct 19, 2016)

Fwiw, you can shave hair at 1k too. Take your time and keep a consistent angle. Like panda said don't spend too much time on the 5k


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## Ruso (Oct 19, 2016)

Make sure you are keeping your angle consistent. That's probably the most important thing in sharpening.


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## jaybett (Oct 19, 2016)

If you can feel the burr at the lower grit stone, but the knife edge feels smooth after using a higher grit stone. It probably means that you are creating multiple bevels on the edge. Lifting the knife after each stroke increases the chances for a multi-bevel edge. A knife is going to wobble with free hand sharpening. The trick is minimize it. Jon from JKI videos are a good resource on how to hold and move a knife across a stone. 

Cutting hair is a fun test. It doesn't evaluate the knife's overall performance. A knife can shave hair, but still wedge in food. 

Jay


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## daveb (Oct 19, 2016)

Hell, you can shave hair after a JNS 300 - but suggest you use someone else's arm... I'm with CC and Panda about how effective a gage it is.

One of many things I got from Jon's videos is that pressure is applied at the edge on edge trailing strokes and the return stroke was to return the knife to battery and used less if any pressure. (If I'm completely wrong it would not be the first time) Saves you from having to lift the knife off the stone to return it and from having to lay the knife back down again. (Seems like this would lead to rounding the edge)

Be patient. The only way to get good at it is to suck at it for a little while.


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## guari (Oct 19, 2016)

I'm sure this won't be a first for the forum, but the advice served it's purpose!

Thanks for the kind advice all.

I went and started from scratch with the 600, then the 2000 then a few passes with the 5000. The only difference was doing the back and forth movement rather than just in one direction, and now I can shave my arm hairs for the first time with my own sharpening!

I suppose the main culprit was not being consistent with the angle as it would change ever so slightly every time I lifted the knife from the stone.

Thanks again!


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## foody518 (Oct 19, 2016)

Very nice, same day progress!


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## Ruso (Oct 19, 2016)

Gongrats!


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## AllanP (Oct 19, 2016)

Congrats, I think I had a lot of problems with rounding over the edge with higher grit stones too.

The angle is more important than anything imo, and it doesn't hurt to go slow. I think the Korin sharpening videos really helped me


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Oct 20, 2016)

Arm hair test could still hide: Too thick behind the edge, sharp but bent edge, friction-causing shoulders (or the sharp microbevel on a barb wire fence scenario pull through devices are great at creating)....


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## guari (Oct 26, 2016)

Rather than opening a new thread, I thought if asking here. 

Last week I ordered a 8000 naniwa super stone. It hasn't been opened. It was a bit of an impulse buy as I thought I needed such a high grit to get a very sharp edge. Now, I know that I can get a great edge with the 5k I already have. 

I have a generic 5000 stone from Amazon that I'm already using. Is the step from 5k to 8k even necessary? Would I notice any benefit from the 8k vs the 5k?I'm just unsure if I should return it and use the 5k as my highest grit stone. 

This is all for the house cooking. 

Thanks

Edit: my stones are

220 naniwa ss

600/2000 amazon generic stone

2000/5000 amazon generic stone

8k naniwa ss wrapped as new


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## WingKKF (Oct 26, 2016)

Grit wise I doubt there is going to be much difference especially if you are getting good results with a 5K edge. The sharpening experience might be different however.


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## daveb (Oct 26, 2016)

Probably don't need it. I don't go above 6K for anything but Yanagiba. But this is from someone who sharpened the knife blade on a waiter's corkscrew to 8K+ when I started this.

If you want it that's another story. You may be better served with a solid 1.2K (Bestor), or G2K.


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## guari (Oct 26, 2016)

WingKKF said:


> Grit wise I doubt there is going to be much difference especially if you are getting good results with a 5K edge. The sharpening experience might be different however.





daveb said:


> Probably don't need it. I don't go above 6K for anything but Yanagiba. But this is from someone who sharpened the knife blade on a waiter's corkscrew to 8K+ when I started this.
> 
> If you want it that's another story. You may be better served with a solid 1.2K (Bestor), or G2K.



I am thinking along those lines. I'm now failing to see the real need for a stone that high; but I wanted to double check with folk with more experience than mine.

Thanks!

Edit: Are the naniwa's specialty stone well regarded? I can source them locally here in the UK. Buying outside is not at it's best with the £ so low..


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## Ruso (Oct 26, 2016)

I have two naniwas SS (Super Stone) 5 and 10K. I like both, but 10K does not get used much.


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## guari (Oct 26, 2016)

Ruso said:


> I have two naniwas SS (Super Stone) 5 and 10K. I like both, but 10K does not get used much.



Good to know, thanks!


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## copperJon (Oct 26, 2016)

I use my naniwa 10k on my Suisin Inox Honyaki deba, but otherwise, I have no use for shiny.


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## guari (Oct 27, 2016)

copperJon said:


> I use my naniwa 10k on my Suisin Inox Honyaki deba, but otherwise, I have no use for shiny.



Thanks Jon,

On the basis of the suggestions I received, I sent the 8K back in exchange for a 800 and a 2K naniwa SS. 

That way I'll replace the generic 600/2K combo stone I have, as it is extremely soft and does not seem to have undergone good quality control. I've found very large abrasive grains embedded in the matrix of those. 

Thanks!


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## foody518 (Oct 27, 2016)

If you're using your 600/2k combo for bevel setting and not thinning, consider the Gesshin 2K as a one-stone badass alternative. It works FAST for this purpose


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## Factotum (Oct 29, 2016)

Sounds like you've been guided in the right direction here; the 8k is overkill in most situations. One thing that I was told and found very helpful in the beginning days of sharpening was this: if your edge is not sharp off the first stone you use, there's no sense in moving up. So if you can't shave at 1k, don't expect the 2k or 5k to magically turn your bad 1k edge into something great. Now, you COULD achieve shavability this way just by virtue of polish (especially if you strop), but in terms of best functional and lasting edge, it's gotta be right from the start. Also, FWIW, I can shave off Naniwa Chosera 400 and Shapton 500.


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## guari (Oct 29, 2016)

Factotum said:


> Sounds like you've been guided in the right direction here; the 8k is overkill in most situations. One thing that I was told and found very helpful in the beginning days of sharpening was this: if your edge is not sharp off the first stone you use, there's no sense in moving up. So if you can't shave at 1k, don't expect the 2k or 5k to magically turn your bad 1k edge into something great. Now, you COULD achieve shavability this way just by virtue of polish (especially if you strop), but in terms of best functional and lasting edge, it's gotta be right from the start. Also, FWIW, I can shave off Naniwa Chosera 400 and Shapton 500.



Good stuff, definitely makes sense! 

Thanks for the info.


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## tgfencer (Nov 2, 2016)

Factotum said:


> Sounds like you've been guided in the right direction here; the 8k is overkill in most situations. One thing that I was told and found very helpful in the beginning days of sharpening was this: if your edge is not sharp off the first stone you use, there's no sense in moving up. So if you can't shave at 1k, don't expect the 2k or 5k to magically turn your bad 1k edge into something great. Now, you COULD achieve shavability this way just by virtue of polish (especially if you strop), but in terms of best functional and lasting edge, it's gotta be right from the start. Also, FWIW, I can shave off Naniwa Chosera 400 and Shapton 500.



This! And don't get discouraged. Even when you get good at it, you will still screw up occasionally. I do....hope its not just me :O


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## jimmy_d (Nov 4, 2016)

Factotum said:


> Sounds like you've been guided in the right direction here; the 8k is overkill in most situations. One thing that I was told and found very helpful in the beginning days of sharpening was this: if your edge is not sharp off the first stone you use, there's no sense in moving up. So if you can't shave at 1k, don't expect the 2k or 5k to magically turn your bad 1k edge into something great. Now, you COULD achieve shavability this way just by virtue of polish (especially if you strop), but in terms of best functional and lasting edge, it's gotta be right from the start. Also, FWIW, I can shave off Naniwa Chosera 400 and Shapton 500.



That sounds like some good advice there!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 5, 2016)

"don't expect the 2k or 5k to magically turn your bad 1k edge"

Probably with the exception of the lackluster 1k edge just being a vehicle for a microbevel set with a finer stone, with the microbevelling also being the final deburr. But this is more something to do to average quality VG-anything than to a fine knife


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## Benuser (Nov 5, 2016)

Normally you go to a next stone if you can't get the burr any finer with the previous one, and the lightest stroke only makes the burr to flip. Don't go to the next one without deburring as much as possible.


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## Mika (Nov 7, 2016)

You are not setting the bevel properly. I can cut arm hair straight off my most coarse stone. and if the bevel isn't set then you're just polishing a dull edge.

Edit. I only read the first couple of post. Apologies if my answers all ready has been written. didn't realise how long the post was.


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## guari (Nov 7, 2016)

Thanks for all the new insights. Haven't had the chance to play with the stones over the last few days.


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## Nemo (Nov 8, 2016)

Factotum said:


> Sounds like you've been guided in the right direction here; the 8k is overkill in most situations. One thing that I was told and found very helpful in the beginning days of sharpening was this: if your edge is not sharp off the first stone you use, there's no sense in moving up. So if you can't shave at 1k, don't expect the 2k or 5k to magically turn your bad 1k edge into something great. Now, you COULD achieve shavability this way just by virtue of polish (especially if you strop), but in terms of best functional and lasting edge, it's gotta be right from the start. Also, FWIW, I can shave off Naniwa Chosera 400 and Shapton 500.



I'm still learning freehand (picking it up faster than I expected though&#128522. What determines whether your 1K edge is good or bad? Is it simply a matter of consistent bevel angle and propper deburring? Or is there something else to look out for?


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## James (Nov 8, 2016)

Nemo said:


> I'm still learning freehand (picking it up faster than I expected though&#128522. What determines whether your 1K edge is good or bad? Is it simply a matter of consistent bevel angle and propper deburring? Or is there something else to look out for?



Consistent bevel angle, proper deburring and ensuring that you're hitting the edge (if you're not, thin the knife out or adjust your angle).


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## Nemo (Nov 8, 2016)

James said:


> Consistent bevel angle, proper deburring and ensuring that you're hitting the edge (if you're not, thin the knife out or adjust your angle).



Thanks James.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 9, 2016)

1K should do arm hair after deburring and an unloaded strop.


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## fatboylim (Nov 9, 2016)

Light pressure stropping motions worked we for me when trying to discover that razer edge. 5 to 10 edge leading strokes each alternating each time works well and usually deburrs the knive to a razor edge! I now do it between each stone to ensure it is shape before progressing. It was the missing last step for me!


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## Benuser (Nov 9, 2016)

I guess you mean edge trailing strokes.


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## zitangy (Nov 9, 2016)

Edge trailing strokes.... it will uncurl the burr (if any) . Thats why it will feel sharp but it will be a weak edge. More strokes, it will get thinner and thinner and till it breaks and will not break evenly and the tiny curls will hv an edge debris.

If i am correct, a true edge will be formed when the burr is broken off, leaving a very slightly flat blade edge which is tiny and a further light ( abt just weight of knife pressure) refining strokes wld be required to form an apex at the edge. Overshoot adn you have a burr again but it shld be tiny as only light pressure is required when chasing for the ultimate apex...

that why I prefer edge leading strokes ( cutting into stone) for the finishing strokes. I believe I can get away with at least one side with edge leading strokes.

rgds d


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## milkbaby (Nov 9, 2016)

I've seen videos of people that like edge leading "no pressure" for deburring. Though I think the issue in question Benuser was responding to was about a stropping motion, which shouldn't be edge leading...


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## Benuser (Nov 9, 2016)

Exactly


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## fatboylim (Nov 10, 2016)

My error on terminology, I do mean edge leading without pressure but using the same angle as you might do for Stropping.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 10, 2016)

See the scienceofsharp blog, there's a few EM photos and texts that confirm the suspicion that too much edge trailing can give you a wire edge.


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## Nemo (Nov 10, 2016)

I found the scienceofsharp experiments to be very interesting. Not sure if it makes any difference that they were done mainly on razors (with higher polish and narrower angles) rather than kitchen knives.


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