# Vintage european knives (old carbon steel)



## Aaroncini (Apr 5, 2018)

Hi guys, I developed an interest in, followed by a bug and then leading to a collection of vintage carbon steel european knives, mostly german and french (Wusthof, Henckels, Sabatier, Herder) which i directly attribute to using Japanese carbon steel and seeing how good it was, just wondering if anyone else on here has an interest and/or an opinion on these older knives? Ive personally used them in a professional kitchen and found them really nice to use.
cheers
Aaron


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## HRC_64 (Apr 5, 2018)

I love seeing the old/western knives


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## GorillaGrunt (Apr 6, 2018)

I like em. I have a big Sabatier (K-Sab) that I like to use at home; its soft for work though. Love the Sabatier (T-I) utility knife too, the equal of any J-knife. At my second job (BBQ joint) my favorite blade to use is a Latham & Owen tall slicer/narrow chef; Sheffield steel is harder than the French stuff and the geometry just works for what I do.

These are also fun and educational to repair and restore, and you end up with something way more useful than a cheap stainless knife.


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## Benuser (Apr 6, 2018)

Same here, with vintage Sabs, Sheffields and new Herders.
The Herder 1922 @60Rc has an almost French profile, lower tip than modern French, very thin behind the edge. A good alternative to vintages.
Oldies do often need a lot of work: profile correction, as a reverse belly, protruding fingerguard, damaged tip. Fatigued steel by oversteeling. Prices have risen far beyond what's reasonable as they have become collectors' items and aren't used in the kitchen anymore. Market manipulation by disinformation, e.g. about recycled modern vs. old virgin steel.


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## Benuser (Apr 6, 2018)

Amongst the oldies, still very interesting, NOS (new old stock) Nogents with a rat tail tang. Very light handle, forward balance. The French makers were the last ones to introduce the modern full tang. Nogent handles are very comfortable. 
http://www.cookfoodgood.com/?p=409


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## Jovidah (Apr 6, 2018)

K-Sabatier still makes new carbon ones in case you want a 'safer' bet. Not entirely sure how they match up to their older models, but at least they're ready to go instead of a project knife.
Not sure how much of the good vintage stuff is still left. I think most of the dusty closets and basements have been cleared out and picked clean by now. 

For me, they always pose a bit of a dilemma. On the one hand I really love the look, the profile and the 'charm'. And on the other hand I hate knives with bolsters going all the way to the edge, and hate having to use a steel because the steel is so soft. So far that has kept me in a persistent cycling of looking into them, and turning them down again knowing it's not for me.
The Herder is a great choice if you want an 'old fashioned carbon' without the softness. If that thing came without a bolster it would have flown into my kitchen years ago.


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## Benuser (Apr 6, 2018)

The Herder 1922 fingerguard is quite narrow, and C75 not very abrasion resistant. It comes out of the box a few millimetres shorter than the blade. With the chef's knife it only requires some little work once in the few years.


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## Jovidah (Apr 6, 2018)

I know... but with my technique - or lack thereof - it just gets in the way both when cutting and when sharpenening. Certainly might not apply to everyone if your technique is different. But I've had some knives with a full bolster before and I always found them to be a nuisance. And if anything, getting used to bolster-less gyutos has only made me lazier / sloppier in that regard. 
A theoretical option would be to get some professional to ground it off entirely... but at that point it's probably easier / cheaper to just get something else entirely, or fork out the extra 50 euros for the new Herder K Chef.

I do agree though that if you actually are looking for a 'classic' carbon it's probably the best thing you can get.


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## shownomarci (Apr 6, 2018)

I've got a big old carbon Sabatier chef knife, what i bought at a carboot sale. 
Had quite a bit of rust pitting a big f*kin bolster, what is a PITA to grind down. I've put some blood, sweat and elbow grease into it and now it's quite usable.
Takes a good edge fairly quickly (loses it quickly as well), develops patina in no time, but i like it. 
Wouldn't buy anymore knives with bolster, that's for sure.


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## Benuser (Apr 6, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> I know... but with my technique - or lack thereof - it just gets in the way both when cutting and when sharpenening. Certainly might not apply to everyone if your technique is different. But I've had some knives with a full bolster before and I always found them to be a nuisance. And if anything, getting used to bolster-less gyutos has only made me lazier / sloppier in that regard.
> A theoretical option would be to get some professional to ground it off entirely... but at that point it's probably easier / cheaper to just get something else entirely, or fork out the extra 50 euros for the new Herder K Chef.
> 
> I do agree though that if you actually are looking for a 'classic' carbon it's probably the best thing you can get.



The Herder K lack the Jugendstil / Art nouveau character, and are made of 1.2519 instead of C75. Good stuff for sure, but not that easy sharpening. And far too expensive.


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## OliverNuther (Apr 6, 2018)

Aaroncini said:


> just wondering if anyone else on here has an interest and/or an opinion on these older knives



Nope. Sorry OP, seems like no one knows much about them&#128521;


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## jferreir (Apr 6, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> K-Sabatier still makes new carbon ones in case you want a 'safer' bet. Not entirely sure how they match up to their older models, but at least they're ready to go instead of a project knife...



You can get new carbons from k-sab, but I wouldn't call them a safe bet -- the QA is downright terrible. Out of the four that I've handled, only one blade was straight. The others had a very pronounced bend to the left, which apparently is quite common with the carbon line. 

The steel is stupid soft (~54), so you'll need to keep a honing rod nearby at all times. Sharpens up quick though, and it takes a nice patina.


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## Gregmega (Apr 6, 2018)

I think to really put it all in perspective, you need to split out what has happened with modern steel versus the prewar steel on the topic of hardness. A lot of the knife makers now are using steels and recipes that can take a heat treatment easily to the top of the scale, and that can be good or can be bad based on your usage or feel. I personally like the the feel of white 2, it notoriously has a shorter edge life, but also can take a crazier edge, so you're trading that ability for maintenance. These older knives remind of of just those attributes. 

I have a handful of super old carbon sabs, prewar and post, and also work with a guy who found a cashé of blanks from the era that heat treats them into honyakis. Most people will say they just don't get hard, but to that I say it's fine. Simply because once you know how to handle these knives, it makes sense. I also know people who don't like how hard new makers are taking their HT's, in the end it's all personal (I have a halcyon forge that sharpens fairly easily, but it is treated right up to the limit of its ability). 

These blades are also more forgiving when it comes to treatment, and that goes a long way in a pro kitchen. I've chipped countless knives for seemingly innocuous activities in a pro setting, angrily. One of my old prewar sabs (that I picked up at a flea market for 5$ and rehabbed) stayed in my kit as my primary butcher knife for years, despite my trying to replace it with a 'fancier' knife in the same profile. You can knock it against bones while breaking lamb loins off saddles all day. Couple quick swipes on a steel and you're back. 

I went super deep into that hole, and I love it. I actually have a piece with Jon (JKI) right now that we are doing a project with, knocking off the bolster, lightly modifying the profile, light thinning and easing the spine. It's a workhorse if I've ever seen one, might land in that Kato-esque territory once it's done. Go team Sab!


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## Benuser (Apr 6, 2018)

Which brings me on the next discussion point: for good reasons, people dislike fingerguards. With narrow ones, all you have to do is cutting off a few millimetres, or make a diagonal cut which is even easier. 
Some get excellent results by removing it entirely. Very effective, but quite disfiguring.
I feel a bit uneasy about changing so drastically the appearance of a historic design. Any thoughts?


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## Jovidah (Apr 6, 2018)

Benuser said:


> The Herder K lack the Jugendstil / Art nouveau character, and are made of 1.2519 instead of C75. Good stuff for sure, but not that easy sharpening. And far too expensive.


Yeah it definitly has a different look and profile. But in the end of the day it probably fits better to my pecularities - as individual as they may be.  
Didn't know about the difference in steel. I always thought C75 was what they used on the cheap carbons? Do they simply give it a different heat treatment on the higher HRC models? For me it's mostly been clouded in mystery what most of their stuff is made from, only encountering the occasional tidbit of hearsay. 

I do agree it's rather pricey - and that's also why I don't have it yet. No idea why they are so much more expensive than the 1922; you'd think with the simple stamped construction and the cheap wooden scales they'd be easier (and thus cheaper) to make? 
If that thing was a 100 euros cheaper, it would be a great deal. We could recommend them to anyone in Europe who's simply looking for a simple knife that cuts well, and they'd be flying out of the shops. 



jferreir said:


> You can get new carbons from k-sab, but I wouldn't call them a safe bet -- the QA is downright terrible. Out of the four that I've handled, only one blade was straight. The others had a very pronounced bend to the left, which apparently is quite common with the carbon line.
> 
> The steel is stupid soft (~54), so you'll need to keep a honing rod nearby at all times. Sharpens up quick though, and it takes a nice patina.



Wow, didn't expect that. So far, whatever else you may say of them, my usual experience was that all the factory made European stuff was at least... straight. Boring, soft and built much too thick, but at least straight and 'clean'. Didn't know they had such issues. 
I do agree they are incredibly soft, but I think that's part of the rationale; it also makes them so easy to steel. Can imagine that makes it work well for stuff like boning, or for people who are used to that kind of routine. Less well for people who don't use it enough to get proficient at steeling, or who hate using a steel all the time.



Benuser said:


> Which brings me on the next discussion point: for good reasons, people dislike fingerguards. With narrow ones, all you have to do is cutting off a few millimetres, or make a diagonal cut which is even easier.
> Some get excellent results by removing it entirely. Very effective, but quite disfiguring.
> I feel a bit uneasy about changing so drastically the appearance of a historic design. Any thoughts?



I kinda see your point there, and to some extent I agree with you. Maybe thats why I haven't bought that 1922 yet and ground it down? I could imagine it would look a lot less good. It's also somewhat pricey for a project knife requiring a lot of work. At that point you might as well get something that's good out of the box. If it was a 100 euro's cheaper I'd give it a go, but it isn't... and trying to remove the entire fingerguard isn't as trivial as cutting off a corner of the handle from a 10 Herder peeling knife. 
It also doesn't inspire any confidence that last time I brought a knife with a bolster to some 'professional sharpener' in hopes of taming that bolster, he effectively ruined the knife... Thank god it was cheap!


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## Gregmega (Apr 6, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Which brings me on the next discussion point: for good reasons, people dislike fingerguards. With narrow ones, all you have to do is cutting off a few millimetres, or make a diagonal cut which is even easier.
> Some get excellent results by removing it entirely. Very effective, but quite disfiguring.
> I feel a bit uneasy about changing so drastically the appearance of a historic design. Any thoughts?


 I think for me it depends on the piece, the older ones that hold more historical value, I'd not consider changing anything about them other than cleaning them up. 

Sadly a lot of them over time were pretty abused. If it's in rough shape already, I'll just take advantage and make it into a performer as required. The one I'm working on with Jon at the moment looks to be one of the late 60's/early 70's NOS that has seen a fair number of hands since being rediscovered, and I don't feel as fondly about it as I do my prewar sabs. It's the perfect piece to turn into a gnarly workhorse, kinda the proverbial marble slab from which David was carved. It was also a gift from a friend who saw the potential for a sab nerd like me[emoji12]. 

Unless you're willing to shell out the dough for a good specimen that won't require a rehab (side note, that market has turned a corner I don't like), that's one of the awesome things about these pieces, finding one at a decent price, seeing what's inside it, and giving a new life. 

On another side note, a buddy found me a super old masamoto for the same function, it's likely late 70's/ early 80's when they started putting western handles on and it's a project I'm pretty amped on as well!


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## Jovidah (Apr 6, 2018)

Where do you even find such hidden treasures? Anytime I'm in a thrift store all I find is cheap stainless crap.  My only lucky find was a really old German carbon meat cleaver, but that's it.


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## Gregmega (Apr 6, 2018)

I live in LA, and we have a ton of flea markets in the area, that's where I've had most my luck... but in the last few years it's become a secondary market of its own. Guys like upbeatvintage on IG have dramatically exposed the market and now auctions on eBay have turned into last minute bidding wars leading to the market essentially doubling in the last five years. Pretty much every sale lands north of 100$ now, and more in the 125-50 neighborhood. Full retail prices I guess, and in turn that's raised the profile even at the flea markets. I know that some people hit estate sales, a lot of luck there. Also little thrift shops along the side of the road turns up some weird stuff too, if you have the bandwidth to do so.


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## sachem allison (Apr 7, 2018)

How is mine treating you, brother?


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## sachem allison (Apr 7, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Which brings me on the next discussion point: for good reasons, people dislike fingerguards. With narrow ones, all you have to do is cutting off a few millimetres, or make a diagonal cut which is even easier.
> Some get excellent results by removing it entirely. Very effective, but quite disfiguring.
> I feel a bit uneasy about changing so drastically the appearance of a historic design. Any thoughts?



How is mine treating you, brother?


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## Gorrion (Apr 7, 2018)

I don't see much on this forum about Eskilstuna knives. I have one from the '60s which I bought in Port Stanley and used for gutting seals in the Antarctic. It's still in my drawer and I get it out occasionally and cut something with it just for old times' sake.


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## Benuser (Apr 7, 2018)

sachem allison said:


> How is mine treating you, brother?



The Sheffields are still my most used knives! What makes them different from Sabs is, apart from spear point and typical handle, higher hardness and use of some spicy steel, I can only compare with a 1890 Trompette, whose steel probably originated from Sheffield as well.
Of course it's all Swedish ore, but in those days it were probably contaminants or impurities who gave a steel it's character. With both Sheffields and the very best French you may encounter some surprises, as a big carbide...
So it doesn't only contain iron and carbon.
Meanwhile this steel provides some unexpected abrasion resistance and more bite than other carbons.
Here two Sheffields:
Note the typical spear tip, and the characteristic handle.



From top to bottom: Latham & Owen, ca. 1948, unknown Sheffield, 1920's. On the last one the tip got slightly rounded -- my fault. Aesthetically disappointing, but rather functional, as the tip doesn't get damaged that easily anymore.


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## HRC_64 (Apr 7, 2018)

Looks more like a KS than alot of clones :rofl:



Benuser said:


>


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## Benuser (Apr 7, 2018)

Never looked at it that way! Thanks.


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## Gregmega (Apr 7, 2018)

From top to bottom: Latham & Owen, ca. 1948, unknown Sheffield, 1920's. 

So nice.


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## Jovidah (Apr 8, 2018)

Daaamn those Sheffield knives look awesome! Why haven't we heard of those before? Like HRC said; it's almost like a perfect KS profile!
Also looks different than anything I've seen seen so far sold under a 'Sheffield' name - although I never dug into it. All I saw was silly Chinese made knives with a bit of a German profile.  Anyone still making them like this?


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## Benuser (Apr 8, 2018)

Haven't seen any of them from after the 40s.


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## Gregmega (Apr 8, 2018)

A lot of forges were repurposed during the war, and all the steel was moved into wartime production. The only reason sab survived (and why so many mystery blanks resurfaced) was that the original partners of the Thierres factory stashed a massive amount of the drop forged blade blanks so that when the war finished, they could begin finishing those blades while recuperating and hopefully not lose too much ground. This was highly frowned upon by allied forces, because to stash steel was rather anti-patriotic. So as a result of the steel 'famine', most forges (or at least their original make-up, didn't ever recover. Sheffield included. Even sab couldn't pull out of it and that factory and its partners were forced to walk away.


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## Benuser (Apr 8, 2018)

Curious this story reappears from time to time. Sure, the Thiers makers have hidden their stocks during the war, but so they prevented requisition ... by the Germans. Thiers was occupied until the end of August 1944.


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## Gregmega (Apr 8, 2018)

I know a guy who has the largest pile of old stamped stock I've ever seen, and his connection said basically this: with the factory's future in mind, the stash was moved away from the factory. They had planned on moving the steel back into the factory piece by piece after the war, so as not to alert officials that they'd moved so much steel underground. The goal was to slide these pieces into production slowly as a way to generate a little capitol while getting the 'machine' back up and working. Apparently they were too far out to fully get back up and operating and one of the partners upon recognizing this moved the blanks to America with the attempt to eventually have them finished in the states. Here they lay for decades until someone who saw them realized what the were and their value. But that's another story, and still suspect at best. But it's all I've been able to dig up over the years...


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## Jovidah (Apr 8, 2018)

Gregmega said:


> A lot of forges were repurposed during the war, and all the steel was moved into wartime production. The only reason sab survived (and why so many mystery blanks resurfaced) was that the original partners of the Thierres factory stashed a massive amount of the drop forged blade blanks so that when the war finished, they could begin finishing those blades while recuperating and hopefully not lose too much ground. This was highly frowned upon by allied forces, because to stash steel was rather anti-patriotic. So as a result of the steel 'famine', most forges (or at least their original make-up, didn't ever recover. Sheffield included. Even sab couldn't pull out of it and that factory and its partners were forced to walk away.



That's a damn shame.  I've heard something similar about the cheese industry in the UK; they had a lot more different cheeses but a lot of these dissapeared during the war as production was streamlined on a national level to produce just a few types. After the war most of the others never returned. 
Still a shame... if you just look at those knives with that KS-y profile, it's hard to imagine there isn't some kind of market for that, especially if you make them in a decent steel.


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## Gregmega (Apr 8, 2018)

There's another aficionado (don't recall the name atm) on I think the historical page that also has a pretty in-depth series of convos on this subject, I'll see if I can find it. Such cool history though.


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## Gregmega (Apr 8, 2018)

Jovidah said:


> That's a damn shame.  I've heard something similar about the cheese industry in the UK; they had a lot more different cheeses but a lot of these dissapeared during the war as production was streamlined on a national level to produce just a few types. After the war most of the others never returned.
> Still a shame... if you just look at those knives with that KS-y profile, it's hard to imagine there isn't some kind of market for that, especially if you make them in a decent steel.



Wow, what an awesome line to draw in the things we lost to history. That's half the reason I'm still obsessed with these beauties.. thanks for sharing!!


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## Benuser (Apr 8, 2018)

If some form of cutlery industry has survived in France, it has all to do with the large, very conservative domestic market. Hardly depending on export, much less exposed to international competition.


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## chinacats (Apr 8, 2018)

As to Sabs, the steel seems to be a bit harder in the nogents than in the newer versions. Also, in general I prefer the 4star elephants to the k-sab. Still like to find a decent older Sheffield.


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## dafox (Apr 8, 2018)

Who are the current manufacturers of quality knives in England?


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## Aaroncini (Apr 10, 2018)

definitely struggled to find decent Sheffields without a bone handle, got one nice carving knife but thats about it, nice steel though


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## Benuser (Apr 10, 2018)

Aaroncini said:


> definitely struggled to find decent Sheffields without a bone handle, got one nice carving knife but thats about it, nice steel though



Carbon steel I hope?
Asking because the Brits were a bit early in using stainless, and early stainless looks great but doesn't cut.


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## Dan P. (Apr 11, 2018)

I went to visit the place where stainless was invented about 18 months ago. Still a working forge, making wood working tools, etc. Very cool! Andy Cole Tools, aka Wigfull Tools in Portland Works, Sheffield.

Hiding steel and iron from the war effort was common practice, I'm afraid. Smiths are miserly bastards. Ask me how I know!


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## Benuser (Apr 11, 2018)

I don't see any reason to blame the Thiers guys for hiding it from the German war effort...


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## Noodle Soup (Apr 11, 2018)

Benuser said:


> I don't see any reason to blame the Thiers guys for hiding it from the German war effort...



Totally agree with that one.


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## Gregmega (Apr 11, 2018)

Dan P. said:


> I went to visit the place where stainless was invented about 18 months ago. Still a working forge, making wood working tools, etc. Very cool! Andy Cole Tools, aka Wigfull Tools in Portland Works, Sheffield.
> 
> Hiding steel and iron from the war effort was common practice, I'm afraid. Smiths are miserly bastards. Ask me how I know!



How do you know... [emoji23][emoji851][emoji851]

I agree, I'm super happy they did. I have four of my prewar blanks arriving home today that will soon be back on the boards[emoji95]


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## Aaroncini (Apr 11, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Carbon steel I hope?
> Asking because the Brits were a bit early in using stainless, and early stainless looks great but doesn't cut.



yes of course, only on the lookout for carbon !


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