# Wow these look awful



## johndavid (Apr 18, 2017)

So I saw this as an ad for quick books for small business loans. The profile on the law knives look horrendous and the blade aesthetics are uncomprehendable. What is this ? 

http://www.chelseamillerknives.com/shop-kitchen-knives/chef-knife-maple


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## DaveInMesa (Apr 18, 2017)

"...I encourage you to experience these knives as living art."

Translation: don't expect them to cut anything.


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## StonedEdge (Apr 18, 2017)

*** is that! lol I'm also interested in carbon steel for it's "otherness"...puke


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 18, 2017)

Has anybody here actually tried how the cutthingsinhalfness of these is?

Though I am doubtful, seeing all the food pictures showing nothing that would even incorporate a slice of tomato or a diced onion... and neither can any youtube review by a cook be found ...?


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## Matus (Apr 18, 2017)

I think we had a thread about this lady here before, it was kind of mix of fun and strong anti-sexism. I would only say - she really knows how to advertise and sell here knives and the whole story around them. Everyone can make their opinion why she is so successful - I would suggest to check out some of her videos. I would not buy one unless it was held to my neck though. I just stop here.


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## StonedEdge (Apr 18, 2017)

I just can't get past those profiles (or lack thereof). 800 bones for someone's art class project? Don't think so. You know what they say... Fools and their money are, well, you get the idea.

There's a fine line between being an artist and a marketer/con artist.


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## labor of love (Apr 18, 2017)

Hehehe the knife that zests!


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## cheflivengood (Apr 18, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Hehehe the knife that zests!



I'm going to make a knife thats kind of like a nakiri but at the front is punched out to be a bottle opener. Sell that **** to corona for mad cash.


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## dwalker (Apr 18, 2017)

cheflivengood said:


> I'm going to make a knife thats kind of like a nakiri but at the front is punched out to be a bottle opener. Sell that **** to corona for mad cash.



If the price was right, I'd buy that.


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 18, 2017)

Oh yea, A sharp knife used an obligatory alcoholic drink opener. Reminds me of Steve Martin's The Jerk


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## aboynamedsuita (Apr 18, 2017)

dwalker said:


> If the price was right, I'd buy that.



If you REALLY want it, you can even pay extra for faster delivery lol.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 18, 2017)

@Mucho Bocho I was thinking of how stubborn nuka-cola caps can make a bottle opener jump. Then I thought of what edge cheflivengood would be capable of putting on such a tool. Then I remembered that what goes up with a jump, must come down with a slam.


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## johndavid (Apr 25, 2017)

just dont see the point in this. Microplane makes some great products, no need to produce two crappy ones.


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## johndavid (Apr 25, 2017)

aboynamedsuita said:


> If you REALLY want it, you can even pay extra for faster delivery lol.



if we are setting money on fire we might as well opt for the faster shipping


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## johndavid (Apr 25, 2017)

I guess what makes me so upset about this is .. there are some makers out there doing some serious respectable work. Someone buying knives like this, expecting to get a quality product, gets a bad taste in their mouth and might not return to the market or respect the craft ... that stinks


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## Bromo33333 (Apr 25, 2017)

johndavid said:


> So I saw this as an ad for quick books for small business loans. The profile on the law knives look horrendous and the blade aesthetics are incomprehensible. What is this ?
> 
> http://www.chelseamillerknives.com/shop-kitchen-knives/chef-knife-maple



There is a whole "craft" movement that repurposes (for lack of a better term) Junk into things of utility with a rustic repurposed look (you can see the knives have cosmetic elements similar to what they used to be which of course is a delberate choice). It's also supposed to be handmade, and with all the pictures of the process, that's driven home, too. 

I suspect the typical customer is attracted to the obviousness of that process with the product, and will proudly display it in their kitchen, and then go use another knife.

Nice work if you can get it.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 25, 2017)

"There is a whole "craft" movement that repurposes (for lack of a better term) Junk into things of utility with a rustic repurposed look"

Usually at prices and inefficiencies that make people who have been upcycling or refurbishing stuff for ages search for their jaw on the floor.


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## milkbaby (Apr 25, 2017)

She also benefited from a New York Times (or some similar media outlet) feature. It looks cool to some people, has the recycling old stuff into new stuff thing going, I can definitely see how it appeals to people with money to burn interested in shabby chic and other home stuff like that.


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## Customfan (Apr 26, 2017)

:scratchhead:


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## Anton (Apr 26, 2017)

Some very nice margins with those prices. Presumably.

I think we know the kitchen knife market is much bigger in the looks/marketing department than the function one. LIke in many other things offered.


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## Customfan (Apr 26, 2017)

Anton said:


> Some very nice margins with those prices. Presumably.
> 
> I think we know the kitchen knife market is much bigger in the looks/marketing department than the function one. LIke in many other things offered.



Agreed, bigger cake than we give credit for and maybe getting bigger? If you add the culinary craze that seems to continue + forging shows + "craft" repurposing market, there is an untapped group out there, that is... if they do well of course. A lot of those still for sale at $800 a pop. 

But I agree with johndavid when he says that: "there are some makers out there doing some serious respectable work"... and I feel for them. Makes you think there are various needs that are being satisfied: utilitarian, aesthetics, etc. But also a provenance, a story, the origin and destination of the materials used, of course, we could argue that someone like Bloodroots or other of our very own makers that can do ALL of THAT....AND do a cool blade that kicks a$$ for maybe even less Mulah!!!! :wink:


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## Bromo33333 (Apr 26, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "There is a whole "craft" movement that repurposes (for lack of a better term) Junk into things of utility with a rustic repurposed look"
> 
> Usually at prices and inefficiencies that make people who have been upcycling or refurbishing stuff for ages search for their jaw on the floor.



It does seem to be a strange time. Some folks successfully "testing" prices by wrapping some clever marketing around something.
My other hobby is audio, and some of the pricing in that arena is every bit of the "head scratching" seen here.


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## alterwisser (Apr 26, 2017)

I don't get the hate here, sorry. 

She found her niche, and she did a great job marketing her products. Just like Joel did from Cut Brooklyn. Why do we always have to be so snobby here about knives that fall outside of our "approved" list of makers?

It's probably not a knife I would buy either, but I for one don't think that she hurts other small makers, quite the opposite actually. Every piece of media or other mainstream exposure that a small craftsman or woman gets will open eyes of outsiders and will create opportunities. 

I, for example, "found" her and Joel way before I found this forum and it's makers. But it was a path that led me here. 

Chelsea surely found a market. Maybe she lucked out, maybe she looked at a specific target group and demand and tailored a product to it. I don't know. But I personally cannot hate or diss someone for doing that. Hats off to that person.

And to the fact that she is a woman, and a good looking one at that... well, if any of you would look like Brad Pitt, don't tell me you'd wear a hoody all day and hide your face because you want your work do all the talking.

I sure wouldn't. If you wanna be successful you gotta leverage all assets you have. Not saying Chelsea does, but I sure would [emoji6]


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## milkbaby (Apr 26, 2017)

I don't think people here are necessarily being snobby. I think the main objection most people may have is that the knives look like a Toyota Yaris and are selling at Mercedes S-class prices.


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## dwalker (Apr 26, 2017)

If someone is into repurposing and upcycling, and buying those kind of products, I believe Bloodroot uses recycled materials and has similar prices. There is nothing unethical about what she is doing unless she knows she is passing off inferior product at premium prices. I don't think this is the case but, that is speculation on my part.


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## alterwisser (Apr 26, 2017)

milkbaby said:


> I don't think people here are necessarily being snobby. I think the main objection most people may have is that the knives look like a Toyota Yaris and are selling at Mercedes S-class prices.



I don't disagree about the looks.

Just let me ask you: if you'd be making a $200 product and you could sell it for $1000 because that's what the market is willing to pay, would you still sell it for $200?

I most certainly wouldn't.


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## Matus (Apr 27, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> I don't disagree about the looks.
> 
> Just let me ask you: if you'd be making a $200 product and you could sell it for $1000 because that's what the market is willing to pay, would you still sell it for $200?
> 
> I most certainly wouldn't.



I might be a little snobby, but I certainly feel no hate. I admire here skills, but just not the knifemaking ones. 

You are absolutely right - the right price for a given product (from the point of view of the seller) is the one that maximises you profits (that is how capitalism works). The buyer will buy a product if to him or her the price to vlaue ratio is OK. If you sell something for too little, than you are loosing potential profit. If you put your price too high - you will loose again. But what the right price (thus how much the customer ready to pay) depends on the value of the product to the customer and that is a very subjective perception of the customer and can be influenced greatly with various means (marketing being one of the most important ones).

As a matter of example - does anyone around here wants to know what is the actual cost of ceramic break disc for a Porsche? Hint - it is a fraction of the price the customer is ready to pay for them


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## milkbaby (Apr 27, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> I don't disagree about the looks.
> 
> Just let me ask you: if you'd be making a $200 product and you could sell it for $1000 because that's what the market is willing to pay, would you still sell it for $200?
> 
> I most certainly wouldn't.



I agree with you, but I can only guess what others here are thinking. I think there's some incredulity and astonishment that people are lining up to buy these homely to ugly looking knives, or even paying a huge premium to cut in line, i.e. the rush job upcharge.

Even if the price were $10, I think a lot of people here would still have the same opinion, that of the thread title: "Wow these look awful"...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 27, 2017)

@alterwisser if the same number of people are willing to pay $1000 as there would be ones willing to pay $200? Or independent of that?


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## alterwisser (Apr 27, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @alterwisser if the same number of people are willing to pay $1000 as there would be ones willing to pay $200? Or independent of that?



That would be getting too much into economic details, I guess.

But Chelsea can only make X knives a day/week/month .... and I assume she realized that she can sell the same amount for the higher price as the lower one. Or close to it.

Maybe at the current price she sells 70% of what she was able to sell at 30% of the price?! She would still come out on top AND would spend less time making the knives she needs to make to earn a living.

From in depth conversations i had with 3 makers I know how difficult it is to make a living doing this. And how much some if not most makers are struggling with finding the right price point.

At the end of the day we should not forget that scarcity and high prices can actually have an effect of increasing demand (the "want" factor).

For more mass produced products this all might look different. But there's an interesting trend here based on our shift towards online shopping. Analytics are getting so advanced that prices soon will be very individualized, based on what the product is worth to a specific customer at a specific time. Based on previous purchases, location, time of day, weather etc. It already happens with flights. I live in a more affluent area... but work(ed) in a less affluent, more blue collar area. Flights were regularly 20-30% more expensive when I shopped for them from home compared to work (same day, same flights, same search engine.... different locations and different computers).

I assume late night (drunk) knife shopping will be even more expensive in the future LOL


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## johndavid (Apr 27, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> I don't disagree about the looks.
> 
> Just let me ask you: if you'd be making a $200 product and you could sell it for $1000 because that's what the market is willing to pay, would you still sell it for $200?
> 
> I most certainly wouldn't.



Actually I think we are being particular. 

"Wow these look aweful" is what I meant. They look aweful. Our job as knife enthusiasts is to advocate for good quality products, sounds consumer purchasing decisions, preservation of the craft, and to warn others about ... well knives that also grate cheese 

Her ability to market her products has little correlation with the quality of the knife. If they were synonymous we would all own shuns, or Cutcos and this site wouldn't exist. 

We are knife snobs because, thank goodness, we have knives worth being snobby about. That is a good thing.


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## alterwisser (Apr 27, 2017)

johndavid said:


> Actually I think we are being particular.
> 
> "Wow these look aweful" is what I meant. They look aweful. Our job as knife enthusiasts is to advocate for good quality products, sounds consumer purchasing decisions, preservation of the craft, and to warn others about ... well knives that also grate cheese
> 
> ...



I might've had the previous thread in mind as well when answering .... iirc that was quite sexist as well, as Matus stated ...


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 27, 2017)

So, if a woman is, COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT OF EACH OTHER FACT, a probably competent smith (or any other kind of competent professional), a bad designer, and attractive (or even expressing that in less restrained terms), how is stating any or all of these facts sexist?


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## alterwisser (Apr 27, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> So, if a woman is, COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT OF EACH OTHER FACT, a probably competent smith (or any other kind of competent professional), a bad designer, and attractive (or even expressing that in less restrained terms), how is stating any or all of these facts sexist?



I didn't say that. I said that iirc, the previous thread about her was quite sexist (as Matus stated). [emoji6]

I think it's totally fine to say that she's a bad smith (although no one here seems to have any experience with her knives).

I think it's also totally fine to say she's a (very/somewhat/incredibly) attractive woman. I personally think she's hot (there I said it) and it might or might not have something to do with the fact that she makes knives LOL


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## milkbaby (Apr 27, 2017)

Knife goggles :lol2:


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## johndavid (Apr 27, 2017)

id say someone could reach out and request a pass around ... but I dont think id be willing to pay to ship it to me or anyone else honestly.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 28, 2017)

"I don't like the knives" wouldn't mean "the smith is bad" in my view ... I'd reserve that for a case of finding out that the knives break or do not cut well...


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## Matus (Apr 28, 2017)

Just an observation (NOT a judgement): 
If those knives were made by a male smith this thread would most probably not exist and if yes, it would be just a few short comments on their design and usability and that would be it. But it is very obvious that we (male dominated KKF community) have hard time discussing this particular topic and trying (and often failing in a funny/awakward way) to somehow ignore and not-ignore at the same time the fact, that these knives are made by a female smith. I just find it intetresting and positively amusing how deep is sexuality rooted in our minds and way we think/react.

Now hand everyone up who understood what I was trying to say :scratchhead: ... :wink:


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## Dan P. (Apr 28, 2017)

milkbaby said:


> I don't think people here are necessarily being snobby. I think the main objection most people may have is that the knives look like a Toyota Yaris and are selling at Mercedes S-class prices.



I love my Yaris. I love the way she shivers and moans when we're doing 110 mph down the M5.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 28, 2017)

@Matus interesting how it is the combination of "prejudice" ("wonder if knives a woman makes will be impractical") and "prejudice confirmed" ("looks like they are impractical indeed") that adds so much fuel to it....


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## Dan P. (Apr 28, 2017)

Matus said:


> Just an observation (NOT a judgement):
> If those knives were made by a male smith this thread would most probably not exist and if yes, it would be just a few short comments on their design and usability and that would be it. But it is very obvious that we (male dominated KKF community) have hard time discussing this particular topic and trying (and often failing in a funny/awakward way) to somehow ignore and not-ignore at the same time the fact, that these knives are made by a female smith. I just find it intetresting and positively amusing how deep is sexuality rooted in our minds and way we think/react.
> 
> Now hand everyone up who understood what I was trying to say :scratchhead: ... :wink:



It is interesting indeed.
Cf the wonderful looking knives from Orchard Steel, which coincidentally were made by a person who is not a man.


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## alterwisser (Apr 28, 2017)

Dan P. said:


> I love my Yaris. I love the way she shivers and moans when we're doing 110 mph down the M5.



110? You're lying LOL


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## Dan P. (Apr 28, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> 110? You're lying LOL



It's a bad idea but it can be done.


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## Bromo33333 (Apr 28, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> So, if a woman is, COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT OF EACH OTHER FACT, a probably competent smith (or any other kind of competent professional), a bad designer, and attractive (or even expressing that in less restrained terms), how is stating any or all of these facts sexist?



Why can your assessment be considered sexist? 

To me, the fact that her looks came up at all means you are judging her in part on being an attractive woman rather than a good, bad or indifferent knifemaker. This makes me think you might be sexualizing her by making her looks in this regard one of the criteria you are judging her work in a way that you do not the males making knives. I am thinking anyone else that says something along those lines, could be pretty much that. 

I put the shoe on the other foot, and noticed that on a lot of sites there are pictures of men making knives, and I haven't seen any comments made on their looks, attractiveness, etc. And I would imagine that comments along those lines might be met with confusion by others. So I am concluding that there might be a double-standard at work.

I will agree that I am not a big fan of the designs, I don't like the price, and don't think the steels she is using are likely to be that good. But that's just me.


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## alterwisser (Apr 28, 2017)

Bromo33333 said:


> Why can your assessment be considered sexist?
> 
> To me, the fact that her looks came up at all means you are judging her in part on being an attractive woman rather than a good, bad or indifferent knifemaker. This makes me think you might be sexualizing her by making her looks in this regard one of the criteria you are judging her work in a way that you do not the males making knives. I am thinking anyone else that says something along those lines, could be pretty much that.
> 
> ...



Well said!


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## jessf (Apr 28, 2017)

In most fields that are historically male dominated, females wanting to break into that field need to often overachieve and in many cases outperform their male counterparts in order to recieve the same level of monitary success and recognition. To impress a prejudiced mindset requires a great deal of effort. As a result, workplace sexism can produce lazy males and super females both receiving the same compensation. In general terms of course sexism lowers everyone's standards. 

I don't think that's the case here. What seems to bother many about these knives is they don't reflect a high standard of craftsmanship. Design is a separate issue and one i wouldn't bother tackling. So, the fact that the knives are made by a female is second only to the fact that they don't reflect overarchieving yet command a high price point. Tells me that the crowd buying them is likely inexperienced with knives but is enthralled with the storey and the maker. Which for some people might be her looks alone.


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## alterwisser (Apr 28, 2017)

Would it confuse people here if someone said that Andy Billipp is a good looking dude?

(Just picking a random maker....!)


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## alterwisser (Apr 28, 2017)

jessf said:


> In most fields that are historically male dominated, females wanting to break into that field need to often overachieve and in many cases outperform their male counterparts in order to recieve the same level of monitary success and recognition. To impress a prejudiced mindset requires a great deal of effort. As a result, workplace sexism can produce lazy males and super females both receiving the same compensation. In general terms of course sexism lowers everyone's standards.
> 
> I don't think that's the case here. What seems to bother many about these knives is they don't reflect a high standard of craftsmanship. Design is a separate issue and one i wouldn't bother tackling. So, the fact that the knives are made by a female is second only to the fact that they don't reflect overarchieving yet command a high price point. Tells me that the crowd buying them is likely inexperienced with knives but is enthralled with the storey and the maker. Which for some people might be her looks alone.



True. And we can't discount that she's been getting quite a bit of mainstream media attention.... something she most likely would not have gotten if not for 

A) being female (in a male dominated industry)

B) being based in Brooklyn/NYC


A good comparison might be Dana Patrick or other female race car drivers (Leah Vaughn in drag racing maybe).


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## Bromo33333 (Apr 28, 2017)

> As a result, workplace sexism can produce lazy males and super females both receiving the same compensation.



Worse than that, the lazy men paid 30% more than the super females doing the same job, which is typical.


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## alterwisser (Apr 28, 2017)

Bromo33333 said:


> Worse than that, the lazy men paid 30% more than the super females doing the same job, which is typical.



And if the woman is attractive and does something the male peers don't agree with, it's often implied that she didn't get to where she is because of her work and skills....

Oh yes, and she's a bi***


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## Bromo33333 (Apr 28, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> And if the woman is attractive and does something the male peers don't agree with, it's often implied that she didn't get to where she is because of her work and skills....
> 
> Oh yes, and she's a bi***



It sure does seem that way, doesn't it?


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## dwalker (Apr 28, 2017)

I think lots of people are missing the the reason for her success. It is because hipsters will buy anything that goes against convention.


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## StonedEdge (Apr 28, 2017)

dwalker said:


> I think lots of people are missing the the reason for her success. It is because hipsters will buy anything that goes against convention.



Hipsters, and morons.


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## stuplarosa (Apr 28, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Hipsters, and morons.



*"Due to high demand, please allow 10-12 weeks production time."*

High demand. Somebody is buying, or maybe that's more marketing?


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## Bromo33333 (Apr 28, 2017)

stuplarosa said:


> *"Due to high demand, please allow 10-12 weeks production time."*
> 
> High demand. Somebody is buying, or maybe that's more marketing?



Lots of people in the NYC area don't think twice about spending $800 for something. Plus there probably isn't a lot of volume, it could be done "on the side" since at $800 a knife, there still isn't enough to live on by itself, so could have a "day job" factor to it.


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## milkbaby (Apr 28, 2017)

Dan P. said:


> milkbaby said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think people here are necessarily being snobby. I think the main objection most people may have is that the knives look like a Toyota Yaris and are selling at Mercedes S-class prices.
> ...



There's always gotta be somebody stirring the s* up! LOL


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## milkbaby (Apr 28, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> Would it confuse people here if someone said that Andy Billipp is a good looking dude?
> 
> (Just picking a random maker....!)



Since this is the way the thread is going, I'll just put it out there that Ian Roberts is a really attractive dude. And that's coming from a totally hetero dude... :running:


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## milkbaby (Apr 28, 2017)

Matus said:


> Just an observation (NOT a judgement):
> If those knives were made by a male smith this thread would most probably not exist and if yes, it would be just a few short comments on their design and usability and that would be it. But it is very obvious that we (male dominated KKF community) have hard time discussing this particular topic and trying (and often failing in a funny/awakward way) to somehow ignore and not-ignore at the same time the fact, that these knives are made by a female smith. I just find it intetresting and positively amusing how deep is sexuality rooted in our minds and way we think/react.



So do I need to start a separate thread to discuss this knife:







Seems like a screaming deal for only $599.95 from Williams Sonoma in comparison to the knives this thread is about?
http://www.williams-sonoma.com/prod...nut-handle/?pkey=ccutlery-chef-knives&isx=0.0


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## alterwisser (Apr 28, 2017)

milkbaby said:


> Since this is the way the thread is going, I'll just put it out there that Ian Roberts is a really attractive dude. And that's coming from a totally hetero dude... :running:



Who's Ian Roberts and why don't I own one of his knives????


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## alterwisser (Apr 28, 2017)

Bromo33333 said:


> Lots of people in the NYC area don't think twice about spending $800 for something. Plus there probably isn't a lot of volume, it could be done "on the side" since at $800 a knife, there still isn't enough to live on by itself, so could have a "day job" factor to it.



$800 in NYC is a night out. Two, if you're frugal [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 28, 2017)

"It is because hipsters will buy anything that goes against convention."

I constantly fail at hipsterism because of being too ignorant about the convention about what is and is not against convention.


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## milkbaby (Apr 29, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> Who's Ian Roberts and why don't I own one of his knives????



Dang autocorrect! It should've been Ian Rogers. My tablet just typed Roberts again, lol.


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## mhpr262 (Apr 29, 2017)

I remember those knives popping up on here a couple of years ago. I reposted the pics (together with a link) in the "VV T F Pictures" thread on my old motorcycle forum and got a few pages of similar discussion, lol.


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## natto (Apr 29, 2017)

She sells beginner stuff at a premium. At least it looks like that. That is perpendicular to our view of knives. 

I'd like to understand why it works, but in English I miss some subtleties. Maybe she lives the dream of some people? Maybe people who don't dare to live this dream buy her knives? Then she would be paid like an actor. 

The last knife I bought was an usuba, me dreaming of great food! This reminds me of our relatives, their look at our obsession, our look at this project...

Is the NYT article online?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 29, 2017)

@natto Interesting theory.. and an interesting concept of people having their dreams lived for them and living dreams others dreamt... I guess one can react with envy, or think of the concept with a HUGE zen smile


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## ob-gym (Apr 29, 2017)

natto said:


> Maybe she lives the dream of some people? Maybe people who don't dare to live this dream buy her knives? Then she would be paid like an actor.



https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/dining/chelsea-miller-most-treasured-cooking-tool-knife.html

A lot of people in the USA (especially major cities) believe working with your hands to make a physical "product" is the best way to show your individuality. I see the word "hipster" being thrown around a lot, but most people who think this way are normal working people like you and me. They just work in accounting or programming, where anyone else who has the skills can produce the same results - they feel less like a person and more like a machine

For these people who crave "humanity," Chelsea Miller has a nice story for them to feel good about supporting. They're buying a story and a conversation starter, not a knife


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 29, 2017)

Oh, I can well understand that, and certainly resemble that in some ways. This whole forum is an artisan support support group.

ADDON: And cookery is just that "hands-on" therapy for many urbanites. But then, I still think the most interesting artisans are the Anryus, the Carters, the Schanzes who supply that market with seriously great tools instead of trying to kind of stand outside that market.


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## alterwisser (Apr 29, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> But then, I still think the most interesting artisans are the Anryus, the Carters, the Schanzes who supply that market with seriously great tools instead of trying to kind of stand outside that market.



This is certainly true .... for us Knife nuts.

The question is: what's smarter from an economical standpoint? Trying to break into this tough market and trying to overcome the unspoken obstacle of being a woman who's probably seen more critical just because of that..... OR finding a niche and a unique selling point?

We all know that some of the artisanal knife makers we love struggle to make ends meet with their craft. I don't know if that's the case for Chelsea .... but to me it looks like she found a way to make it work, better than others


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## Bromo33333 (Apr 29, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> This is certainly true .... for us Knife nuts.
> 
> The question is: what's smarter from an economical standpoint? Trying to break into this tough market and trying to overcome the unspoken obstacle of being a woman who's probably seen more critical just because of that..... OR finding a niche and a unique selling point?
> 
> We all know that some of the artisanal knife makers we love struggle to make ends meet with their craft. I don't know if that's the case for Chelsea .... but to me it looks like she found a way to make it work, better than others



Everyone likes to compare and try to choose what's best. Finding a niche means you can go ahead and make a living without worrying too much about all that malarky. More power to her.

But trying to judge this product in absolute terms kind of misses the point. It's clear her goal is to make something that's an upcycled steel knife, handmade not-industrial in NYC (Brooklyn has a large 'cottage industry' handmade/crafted presence with tons of boutiques selling all kinds of consumer goods) - interesting story. That's a cool niche. If she has a 10-12 week backlog, then clearly it's a winning formula!

I think comparing her knives, to, say a Shig, would be like trying to compare a Jeep Wrangler to a Formula 1 car. You really can't without considering the goal of the whole design.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 29, 2017)

"The question is: what's smarter from an economical standpoint? Trying to break into this tough market and trying to overcome the unspoken obstacle of being a woman who's probably seen more critical just because of that..... OR finding a niche and a unique selling point?"

Let's say she was japanese and made perfectly standard, good, bona fide $150 class gyutos - I don't think she'd be received at all more critically here  It's more the one square foot "unique selling point!!!" sticker these knives carry, along with some people here having the prejudice they won't cut well (I do not know if they do - I already stated the reason why I tend to think "maybe not", and that has all to do with the web presentation and nothing with her).

I think some people here do not exactly like the cooking knives by Rhino or by Jay Fisher, for similar reasons, and these are dudes.


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## Bromo33333 (Apr 29, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "The question is: what's smarter from an economical standpoint? Trying to break into this tough market and trying to overcome the unspoken obstacle of being a woman who's probably seen more critical just because of that..... OR finding a niche and a unique selling point?"
> 
> Let's say she was japanese and made perfectly standard, good, bona fide $150 class gyutos - I don't think she'd be received at all more critically here  It's more the one square foot "unique selling point!!!" sticker these knives carry, along with some people here having the prejudice they won't cut well (I do not know if they do - I already stated the reason why I tend to think "maybe not", and that has all to do with the web presentation and nothing with her).
> 
> I think some people here do not exactly like the cooking knives by Rhino or by Jay Fisher, for similar reasons, and these are dudes.



I think you undermined your own credibility in your criticism when you were talking about her attractiveness. It now becomes really difficult for me to think your critique is simply motivated by the product itself - it seems that there is an element of sexism in there and that makes the critique unreliable.

I appreciate what you are trying to say. And if I were to try to tease out the non sexist meaning, you are basically saying if she was making a $150 Japanese Gyuto you might like it? All you have revealed, really, is the type of knife preference you have and the price point that you prefer, so even the other stuff doesn't hold water very much.

But she's in a niche and successful. So that's good. She doesn't need our money to be successful, so she should absolutely carry on as long as she can!

(And for the record, I am skeptical that it can be a really high performing kitchen knife. But lots of people cook successfully with inferior knives, so ultimately that may be just our criteria)


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 29, 2017)

@Bromo33333 If I had really been critiqueing instead of trying to see how all the shoes in this thread fit, sometimes playing devils advocate  The only things that I truly meant as critique in this thread were: a) the knives are presented with food that isn't cut much and in some cases wouldn't benefit from cutting, and b) assumedly intentional non-comparability of the product. Actually, critiqueing the marketing more than the knife.


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## natto (Apr 29, 2017)

ob-gym said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/dining/chelsea-miller-most-treasured-cooking-tool-knife.html
> 
> A lot of people in the USA (especially major cities) believe working with your hands to make a physical "product" is the best way to show your individuality. I see the word "hipster" being thrown around a lot, but most people who think this way are normal working people like you and me. They just work in accounting or programming, where anyone else who has the skills can produce the same results - they feel less like a person and more like a machine
> 
> For these people who crave "humanity," Chelsea Miller has a nice story for them to feel good about supporting. They're buying a story and a conversation starter, not a knife


Thank you


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## ob-gym (Apr 29, 2017)

Bromo33333 said:


> I think you undermined your own credibility in your criticism when you were talking about her attractiveness. It now becomes really difficult for me to think your critique is simply motivated by the product itself - it seems that there is an element of sexism in there and that makes the critique unreliable.
> 
> I appreciate what you are trying to say. And if I were to try to tease out the non sexist meaning, you are basically saying if she was making a $150 Japanese Gyuto you might like it? All you have revealed, really, is the type of knife preference you have and the price point that you prefer, so even the other stuff doesn't hold water very much.
> 
> ...



I think that's a rather uncharitable interpretation of what he had to say. I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but I don't see where her attractiveness was brought up in that post. Simply acknowledging that she is a woman, and the context of this thread being critical of her craftsmanship isn't in itself sexist. 

My interpretation of what LifeByA1000Cuts is saying is roughly "she relies on marketing rather than her skills as a blacksmith, and *as a knife enthusiast board* we would judge a man harshly for that as well." The $150 gyuto is just an example of what her Chef's knife might be worth - implying the value of the knife reflected her skill level as a knifemaker, meaning $800 is far overpriced for the quality of knife. Cut Brooklyn faced very similar critique on this forum for being overpriced and over-marketed stock removal knives.

She is highly successful and plays very well to the rich "culturally conscious" crowd in NYC, a lot of whom have serious $$$ and aren't afraid to throw it at people they support. Just because she has a market and uses it well, doesn't mean that she has integrity as an artisan - at least not at the same level as Iizuka-san (Shigefusa). Her prices are pure marketing and the make up of her sex chromosomes doesn't change that either way.


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## alterwisser (Apr 29, 2017)

ob-gym said:


> Her prices are pure marketing and the make up of her sex chromosomes doesn't change that either way.



You make it sound as if marketing was something evil.

No product has ever been sold without Marketing. The best product these days doesn't do sh** if you don't know how to market it. 

There are probably a million drinks that are better (tasting and for your health) than Red Bull. But it's been successful because of a marketing strategy that I consider pure genius. 

I personally see it this way:

1) I want to use great products. But it's also MY responsibility to determine what is and what isn't.

2) I highly respect someone who is able to build a successful business.... and while ideally it's a great product combined with a great Marketing strategy .... I also respect a great Marketing strategy in itself. Because that ain't easy to create and implement either


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## ob-gym (Apr 29, 2017)

Marketing is a tool, it's neither good nor evil. Her knives are selling for more than they are worth due to marketing, and that's an amazing achievement as a business owner. She's playing her cards brilliantly, and I have nothing but respect for that. 

Please read my post above, she isn't selling knives, she's selling her story and the romance of an "artisanal" hand-made product - that's marketing. As a knife forum, pointing out that her knives are not performing at an $800 level isn't sexist. Cut Brooklyn does the same thing and is equally ignored around here

I would love to own some stock in Red Bull, but I wouldn't buy the drink. I'm pretty sure we agree here


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## alterwisser (Apr 29, 2017)

ob-gym said:


> .
> 
> Please read my post above, she isn't selling knives, she's selling her story and the romance of an "artisanal" hand-made product - that's marketing. As a knife forum, pointing out that her knives are not performing at an $800 level isn't sexist. Cut Brooklyn does the same thing and is equally ignored around here



I agree (at least I think because I never tried one of her knives)

I'm going to say something blasphemous though in that regard. Most $800 and above knives that are held to high regard here (by myself included) do not perform at an $800 level. Because they don't really outperform a great $300 knife. 

Craftsmanship, F&F, materials.... those all might warrant a higher price. But performance IMHO doesn't. Quite a few of us would whole heartedly agree, others would consider me a sacrilegious fool.... but I also think some of us are lying to ourselves to justify spending that much dough on knives (myself included).

I have about 50 knives and my best cutter cost about $180.... [emoji6]


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## jessf (Apr 29, 2017)

check out Moriah. I think these are approaching a $800 price. 

https://www.orchardsteel.com/


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## alterwisser (Apr 29, 2017)

jessf said:


> check out Moriah. I think these are approaching a $800 price.
> 
> https://www.orchardsteel.com/



Probably.... I like the looks better though (knife, not maker!)


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## ob-gym (Apr 29, 2017)

alterwisser said:


> Craftsmanship, F&F, materials.... those all might warrant a higher price. But performance IMHO doesn't. Quite a few of us would whole heartedly agree, others would consider me a sacrilegious fool.... but I also think some of us are lying to ourselves to justify spending that much dough on knives (myself included).
> 
> I have about 50 knives and my best cutter cost about $180.... [emoji6]



100% agree, as you said marketing done right is everything. Maksim's downright pornographic videos of Kato and Shigefusa forging and finishing is just marketing to us knife nuts, and it works like a charm. We all love the story of the Japanese bladesmith channeling millennia of ancient metallurgical knowledge into something we get to hold in our hands and melt onions with :knife:



jessf said:


> check out Moriah. I think these are approaching a $800 price.
> 
> https://www.orchardsteel.com/



Everything done in house, definitely legit. I remember an old thread where Tojiro had a female blacksmith "Sayaka-san" who apparently does their higher end stuff.

More knifemakers = more knives to lust after. Male or female, that's a win in my book :doublethumbsup:


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## alterwisser (Apr 29, 2017)

ob-gym said:


> 100% agree, as you said marketing done right is everything. Maksim's downright pornographic videos of Kato and Shigefusa forging and finishing is just marketing to us knife nuts, and it works like a charm. We all love the story of the Japanese bladesmith channeling millennia of ancient metallurgical knowledge into something we get to hold in our hands and melt onions with :knife:



Yep....


See, I love the story of the good looking (see what I did here lol) organic farmer making knives during Connecticuts harsh winters [emoji12]


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 29, 2017)

@ob-gym I commented on the gender aspect in another post on this thread, and someone conflated views that were from two very different angles.

"well executed $150 gyuto" was an example I chose because it is a knife style that I think a lot of users here appreciate, of which tens of stellar brands exist, and which I would also assume several users here could competently compare and critique. There are days here when you think this whole forum is about $100-$350 gyutos


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## Bromo33333 (Apr 29, 2017)

ob-gym said:


> My interpretation of what LifeByA1000Cuts is saying is roughly "she relies on marketing rather than her skills as a blacksmith, and *as a knife enthusiast board* we would judge a man harshly for that as well." The $150 gyuto is just an example of what her Chef's knife might be worth - implying the value of the knife reflected her skill level as a knifemaker, meaning $800 is far overpriced for the quality of knife. Cut Brooklyn faced very similar critique on this forum for being overpriced and over-marketed stock removal knives.
> 
> She is highly successful and plays very well to the rich "culturally conscious" crowd in NYC, a lot of whom have serious $$$ and aren't afraid to throw it at people they support. Just because she has a market and uses it well, doesn't mean that she has integrity as an artisan - at least not at the same level as Iizuka-san (Shigefusa). Her prices are pure marketing and the make up of her sex chromosomes doesn't change that either way.



As long as what's between her legs isn't influencing the decisions, then all's fair.

I agree that that knife isn't one I'd want to own, even for $50 let alone $800. But given there was a small thread of sexism running through this (and the other) thread, I felt it important to answer the question asked of why commenting on appearance of her was sexist. And if sexism is part of the equation, then it undermines any important critique.

But it appears that I misunderstood his comment, and appreciate you pointing out my misunderstanding. Peace.


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