# Tennis elbow



## GorillaGrunt (Aug 31, 2017)

Looks like I have tennis elbow from sharpening, flattening stones, and doing repair work. I got one of those compression bands that seems to help somewhat. Has anyone else had this problem, and the important question is, am I probably doing something with bad form/technique that contributes to repetitive stress injury?


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## unprofessional_chef (Aug 31, 2017)

For me knife sharpening is relaxing. But I like to do it sitting down at my desk. Sharpening is very precise work, I need a stable base and good lighting so I can see what I'm doing. I'm also very conservative with metal removal and stone wear. Meaning I don't remove a lot of metal if I don't have to. Just enough to expose new steel.

I rarely have to flatten my stones because I try to wear them down evenly. Just let the weight of the stone do the work.


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## foody518 (Aug 31, 2017)

what height are you and your arms relative to your sharpening surface?


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## kurwamac (Aug 31, 2017)

I have strained my arms and wrists before after sharpening dawn till dusk over my collection and those of plenty of friends and colleagues
Nowadays I stick to doing a couple of my own quite regularly (5 minutes on each in the morning) due to having far more manageable hours and less of a masochistic approach to knives
I believe that putting pressure through ones wrists, especially when locked in is liable to cause injury and pain in excess, but unless yr doing it professionally or grinding a shitton of bevels I cannot see this being too much of an issue


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## Salty dog (Sep 1, 2017)

Have to wonder how much pressure you use?


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## GorillaGrunt (Sep 1, 2017)

Well, on the height question, I've been using a utility table 29" high so the stone and base bring the working height to 31-32". When sitting in my chair (standard folding chair, about 17" seat height) my shoulder is 39" from the floor. I notice that in videos the sharpener is usually standing at a standard height workbench or countertop (36" so about 38-39" work height and my shoulder is 57") with the wrists and elbows relatively a lot lower.

On the pressure issue, I've been sharpening a lot of other people's knives including a lot of Western-type stainless, many of which were very poorly maintained and into the "damaged" category. I doubt my maintaining of my own tools has much to do with it. I've also done a few major repairs in the last week and a half or so involving a lot of grinding on coarse stones and a lot of subsequent flattening, three or four cycles. Possibly of note is that I've been using the Beston 220 pink brick, an inch taller than other stones, and my Atoma plate was pretty worn (just got a new one).

I've not bought a belt grinder because I haven't needed one, but it may simply be that if I'm going to be doing the amount of rough work I've been doing by hand, repair and modification, even on a hobbyist basis, it's now warranted - if nothing else, it might be not that much more costly than wearing out another couple coarse stones and plates.


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## foody518 (Sep 2, 2017)

Any chance to try standing next session and seeing if the different angle to the stone + angles of arm bending make a difference?


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## TurboScooter (Sep 2, 2017)

I aggravated my elbows from (I think) doing pull ups every time I went to the gym instead of just on back days. They were fine until then.

I found that this helped them out, even though I am really bad at doing them consistently. If I did them more regularly I'd probably see better results. I do the twists both ways for both arms when I do it.

[video=youtube;A2QQaVfeI4U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2QQaVfeI4U[/video]


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## rick alen (Sep 2, 2017)

This doctor is a complete a-hole. It's the pronator muscles you need to exercise. What a complete idiot!


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## RDalman (Sep 3, 2017)

I think belt sander is the reasonable approach by the sound of it. Listen to your body a bit. And as you're on to, don't work in a awkward height/stance. I try to vary my work as soon as I feel it may be needed, and it helps alot. My only long time concern is hurting hands and fingers.


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## natto (Sep 3, 2017)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Well, on the height question, I've been using a utility table 29" high so the stone and base bring the working height to 31-32". When sitting in my chair (standard folding chair, about 17" seat height) my shoulder is 39" from the floor. I notice that in videos the sharpener is usually standing at a standard height workbench or countertop (36" so about 38-39" work height and my shoulder is 57") with the wrists and elbows relatively a lot lower.



Elbow height is a good orientation. With my hands a bit below elbow height I can work relaxed. When I was sharpening sitting down I stacked blankets on my chair until my upper legs touched the table. A relaxed upright carriage helped me a lot.


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## GorillaGrunt (Sep 4, 2017)

The way I was doing it didn't seem immediately awkward or uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean it was ergonomic. I might try putting something like boat or stadium cushions on the chair to keep my wrists relatively lower, or standing up with one knee on the chair. Unfortunately I don't really have a place at this time where I can do it in a standing position because of the gritty mess, but it sounds like that might be important to get set up.


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## natto (Sep 7, 2017)

It's not only ergonomics, an upright carriage also supports precision.


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## shipbuilder (Sep 10, 2017)

My suspicion would be that you are using your arms/hands to do the "work", as opposed to using them to just hold the knife and letting your entire body provide the "oomph". Just as pitchers use their whole body to throw, I find that standing while sharpening and subtly rocking my body into/away from the stone works better; legs, feet are all involved. Not only are the hand/arms not strained, but the stone/blade angle is easier to maintain. And for me this is really important - I have severe osteoarthritis and have already had five replacements because of it, including two shoulders.
Tom


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## TurboScooter (Apr 5, 2018)

Timestamp 39m40s if the timecode doesn't work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsR9ohalUp0&t=39m40s


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## HRC_64 (Apr 5, 2018)

have you tried the angle modification for the stones on the work surface? 

I seem to recall there was a debate about flat vs incline (with higher near edge, lower far edge)
angles for sharpening bridges do to "ergonomics"...wonder if these are related issues.

may be worth a look. Jon from JKI built a bridge for this and many of the JDM sharpeners
use the bridge with some angle at their workstations (fixed water boxes or whatever they are called).


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## FoRdLaz (Apr 5, 2018)

I also tried sharpening while seated once. Probably was behind the stones for 2-3 hours. I messed up my right elbow which previously had never given me any hassles. Probably aggravated some arthritis that was subclinical. My elbows never been the same since. Now I sharpen standing and my back takes the strain!


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## panda (Apr 5, 2018)

youre probably only bending your elbows for the action instead of moving your whole arm. you want a swinging motion with shoulder joint being primary pivot point NOT the elbow.


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## Chef Doom (Apr 5, 2018)

When you actively try to be conscious of your body when sharpening you will be surprised as to where all of the stress and tension is going. Also the way you stand is important. Your feet should not be making an upside down T with the stone. Instead you should stand in more of a boxers stance.


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## Chef Doom (Apr 5, 2018)

And you should keep your sharpening sessions brief....&#128514;&#128514;&#128514; get it? Boxers, briefs....I kid I kid.


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## GorillaGrunt (Apr 6, 2018)

Its gotten a lot better since I started using my whole upper body for leverage, applying pressure with the left hand rather than the right, and sitting higher relative to the stone or standing with one knee on the chair. I suppose that if Im going to be doing this all the time I might want to look into constructing a purpose built workstation for the most comfortable position.


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## zitangy (Apr 6, 2018)

I did some readings on this matter... when i ha dot resolve my frozen shoulder problem... do google on trigger points / tennis elbow.. it could be some muscles that is in a state of tension and the pain is at the elbow region.. 
For relief you may want to look into this topic. Posture, height way you work is to prevent a repeat situation.

rgds
z


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## galvaude (Apr 6, 2018)

This is where switching hands has its merits. I don't switch hands when sharpening the primary edge as I don't use a lot a pressure when doing so, but when doing any thinning or geometry work I switch hands. Took me forever to feel confortable but now I really like it and it's a lot better on the hands/elbow and especially fingertips. What I also found out by switching hands is that you don't have to worry as much about using the whole stone, it wears more evenly.

As stated by others, if you do a lot a heavy thinning and repair work, get a powered equipments like a belt sander or the rotationg horizontal wheel made by Naniwa.


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## rick alen (Apr 7, 2018)

zitangy said:


> I did some readings on this matter... when i ha dot resolve my frozen shoulder problem... do google on trigger points / tennis elbow.. it could be some muscles that is in a state of tension and the pain is at the elbow region..
> For relief you may want to look into this topic. Posture, height way you work is to prevent a repeat situation.
> 
> rgds
> z



I believe I already mentioned in here going to a good deep-tissue sports massage therapist. The so-called trigger points are actually fascial nodules, aberrations in the muscle tissue, and also ligaments, that have to be physically broken up. Find a therapist who understands what I've said here and you will likely be golden.

Shoulders are another thing. Sometimes things get out of place, and it is just a matter of manipulating the shoulder till they pop back. Happened to me, was in lots of pain for years. With arm hanging at side and pronated inward a bone doctor pulled my arm back to check for what they call an impingement. Turns out I did not have that, but whatever it was simply disappeared after this! I said , "Gee thanks doc, I'm cured." Doc said he didn't have any idea what he did for me.


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## Chef Doom (Apr 11, 2018)

galvaude said:


> This is where switching hands has its merits. I don't switch hands when sharpening the primary edge as I don't use a lot a pressure when doing so, but when doing any thinning or geometry work I switch hands. Took me forever to feel confortable but now I really like it and it's a lot better on the hands/elbow and especially fingertips. What I also found out by switching hands is that you don't have to worry as much about using the whole stone, it wears more evenly.
> 
> As stated by others, if you do a lot a heavy thinning and repair work, get a powered equipments like a belt sander or the rotationg horizontal wheel made by Naniwa.


This is pretty solid advice. I don't do a lot of thinning but I may start switching hands with a practice knife in order to get used to it.


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## McMan (Apr 11, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> have you tried the angle modification for the stones on the work surface?
> 
> I seem to recall there was a debate about flat vs incline (with higher near edge, lower far edge)
> angles for sharpening bridges do to "ergonomics"...wonder if these are related issues.
> ...




Interesting. I was wondering the same thing... I figured a tipped stone was a way to facilitate constant angle/constant pressure. But perhaps it also has a purpose to lighten the physio load too?


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 11, 2018)

Have always done sharpening standing. Have watched master Katana sharpener work a sword from a seated position.

Teaching sharpening often it is easier for most beginners to keep the blade 90% to the stone as they do finger progression heel to tip. I point out that after the handle is out of the way on one side to progress to a 45% angle for both sides. You can tell doing 90% your elbow is away from your body at 45% it is tucked into your side.

Tip sharpening teach sweep both thinning a little behind the edge and final micro bevel. For this encourage a loose stance twisting torso to get clean sweeps the tip of blade in contact with the stone. Some knives have much more sweep at the tip than others adjust to the blade at hand. Is same lateral burr removal sweep twisting torso making sure blade is in contact with stone heel to tip in one sweep.

With a little practice most can get an even burr heel to tip on micro bevel and remove it with a lateral sweep. They have a knife without high heels and bird beak tips caused by sloppy sharpening. Also show them newspaper stropping to remove any residual burr


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