# Post your favorite thinned knives



## GeneParmesan

There is an easy cutting knive in each european knive.
You just have to carve it out.

My reason for doing this is that I like knives that easily go through hard vegetables. But I prefer knives out of steels that can be sharpened with a sharpening steel.
Firthermore I enjoy the design of knives from european manufacturers.

As my first post I want to show you my Wusthof Chai Dao 14cm.




Right now I like it a lot to prepare my dinner when I'm in homeoffice, i.e. cutting some salad, vegetables and protein.
Compared to a petty of a similar size I like the much higher blade.


As with most other knives from wusthof the knive fits good in my hand and feels komfortable to use.


As usual I thinned the knive in the first fev centimeters behind the edge in a convex way with sandpaper.

Feel free to also post your thinned european knives.
If thinned properly they can be a lot of fun to use.


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## btbyrd

I didn't do the thinning, but I'm quite fond of this ZKramer I picked up on the forum. Previous owner bought the knife new and sent it to JKI for severe thinning and for a saya to be made... and then once all that was done, he sold it here to me for a loss (bless his heart). It had never even cut food. Anyway, I don't have a "before" pick, but this thing is definitely the thinnest blade in this neck of the woods.







Though the blade is at 61 HRC and the knife was made in Japan, so I guess I'm not sure if this knife fits within the OP's parameters.


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## Jovidah

Just buy Robert Herder if you want a European knife that doesn't need thinning.


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## Benuser

Jovidah said:


> Just buy Robert Herder if you want a European knife that doesn't need thinning.


Exactly. A Herder 1922 chef's comes with a decent 0.2mm thickness above the bevel, and 0.5mm at 5mm. Even less if you get the Herder 1922 Tranchelard. Values a Wüsthof user can only dream about. Home users maintain a Herder 1922 chef's during a year with a Dickoron Micro. Or look at a K-Sabatier 200-series in 14C28N, also around 60Rc, even thinner than the Herder chef's. 
By the way, a Misono Swedish Carbon or 440 stainless have equally a hardness that allows maintenance with a quality rod. Both will benefit from some thinning out of the box, but it's nothing compared to what a Wüsthof requires. The only difference with a European knife is the edge being off-centered to the left to improve food release. The Japanese yo-knives are developed from the Sabatier from the end of the 19th century. If Japanese makers do use a better steel than Krupp's 4116, it isn't necessarily extremely hard.


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## GeneParmesan

I am well aware of the herder knives.

Those that are happy with the available stock knives that are thin and easy to sharpen by a honning rod maybe should maybe stick to these knives.

There is a number of knives out there that are often overlooked that are good cutting tools in their core and from their overall design really fun to use.

This thread should be an inspiration for those that are interested in such knives.

.


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## esoo

(somebody has to say it based on the rumors)

Every TF...


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## Benuser

GeneParmesan said:


> There is an easy cutting knive in each european knive.
> You just have to carve it out.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 186361
> 
> Right now I like it a lot to prepare my dinner when I'm in homeoffice, i.e. cutting some salad, vegetables and protein.
> Compared to a petty of a similar size I like the
> View attachment 186360
> 
> As usual I thinned the knive in the first fev centimeters behind the edge in a convex way with sandpaper.


As another member once said, all happens in the first 5mm behind the edge. The modern Wüsthof come with straight bevels, at an angle the steel hardly takes, with protruding shoulders. First thing I do is removing the shoulders and increasing the angle at the very edge, aiming for a convexed bevel. I wonder why you use sandpaper instead of stones. It's quite hard not to overly round the very edge with sandpaper. As for deburring: a serious problem with this steel: how do you perform it with sandpaper?
On a side-note: symmetry is fine, but avoid to go as far as to create faces who are each other's mirror image, as it would result in serious wedging.


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## GeneParmesan

Benuser said:


> I wonder why you use sandpaper instead of stones. It's quite hard not to overly round the very edge with sandpaper. As for deburring: a serious problem with this steel: how do you perform it with sandpaper?


When I teached thinning to myself the information on thinning knives was very scattered or focused on thinning japanese knives in order to maintain their original geometry.
Therefore I had to start somewhere.
There were some videos on convex grinding that recommend sandpaper with a mousepad underneath.
A mousepad gives a to convex grind. To achive a more flat convex grind I am using sandpaper with cleaning rags underneath.
For deburring/adding of a microbevel/removing eventuell scratchmarks from my primary bevel I do use whetstones.

If you are interested in the detailled process, I posted detailed instructions on how I thinn my knives in a german forum a while ago.
[Anleitung] Ausdünnen Küchenmesser von Hand
In the future I want to translate my guide as there are very little tutorials out there regarding this topic.
But for now maybe the link plus google translate can give you a more detailled picture of what I am doing.
The only change that I've done in the meantime is to get some quality sandpaper as it is not much more expensive than the cheap stuff and works much better.
And I don't grind to zero anymore as I have the feeling that the little increase in cutting performance does not justify the loss in stability, i.e. increased risk of small chips.

Could you elaborate what you mean when you say that it is hard not to overly round the edge with sandpaper?



Benuser said:


> On a side-note: symmetry is fine, but avoid to go as far as to create faces who are each other's mirror image, as it would result in serious wedging.


Could you also elaborate this a little more? I do not fully understand what you mean and if there are possible things that can be done better I'd love to learn about them. 

In order to not become completely off topic:

Wusthof Epiqure Slate 20cm
I bought if for around 100 Euro. For this price it is okay. At the normal retail price of around 160 Euro I would think twice or trice about buying this knive. 
If found cheap enough this can be a fun knife to use.


Due to the two relatively flat areas (parallel to the green/blue line) it feels a little like a large nakiri although being more of a generall purpose knive that allows for rock cutting.






The handle allows to hold the knife comfortable in the hammer grip as well as in pinch grip.


Out of the box the knive was 0.2 mm thick behind the primary bevel.
Allthough this sounds not that bad it did not cut good out of the box. Therefore I thinned it a little behind the edge to give it some convex form.
As a side note:
With this knife I performed a very flat convex grind that reaches the cuttong edge/that goes to zero.
I then added a microbevel.
By going to zero I overdid it a little.


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## Benuser

Q.: Could you elaborate what you mean when you say that it is hard not to overly round the edge with sandpaper?
Well, you've found the solution by first setting a secondary bevel before starting the thinning, as I read in your contribution to messerforum.net
Please note the terms primary and secondary bevel are used differently in different fora. Primary/Secondary Bevel Discrepancy
I'm wondering about setting the bevel with a 4000 stone though. With me , a Wüsthof — or any Krupp's 4116 — doesn't see anything above JIS 1200, and that only for the lightest deburring. I do the sharpening on a Chosera 400, JIS 600. A 4k polished edge makes little sense with a steel showing a lack of edge stability as Roman Landes puts it: the tendency of large carbides to break out from a soft matrix. Using a high grit stone which leaves the carbides untouched but weakens the soft matrix around them a bit more won't contribute to a stable edge, even with the reasonably conservative edge of 17° you've chosen.


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## Benuser

About strict symmetry causing wedging: if both sides, both faces are each other's mirror image the knife will operate as a wedge. That's the idea behind the model by Auguste Sabatier in the 1880's, copied by all makers of his time, with a subtle difference in grinding between both sides: the right face being convexed over the entire width, while the left one is flatter, and shows only a curve in the lowest part where the face joints the edge.


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## Jovidah

I don't think I'd take a Wüsthof for a thinning project. No amount of thinning will fix the overly rounded profile, and when it comes to the Ikon series the handle on the bigger knives is just not ergonomical to me. Also too butt-heavy for my taste. They're not overly cheap either.
Were I to pick something for a thinning project I think I'd go for something cheap from either Spain or France. Arcos, Pallares Solsona, one of hte Sabatiers...maybe a Victorinox.

But unless you're on a strict budget I think I'd lean to thinning out an entry-level J-knife like a Carbonext instead. Personally I find even the mundane pakkawood standard handles a significant ergonomical step up from all the POM and other plastics.


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## Nemo

Yeah, a Vic.


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## Benuser

Jovidah said:


> I don't think I'd take a Wüsthof for a thinning project. No amount of thinning will fix the overly rounded profile, and when it comes to the Ikon series the handle on the bigger knives is just not ergonomical to me. Also too butt-heavy for my taste. They're not overly cheap either.
> Were I to pick something for a thinning project I think I'd go for something cheap from either Spain or France. Arcos, Pallares Solsona, one of hte Sabatiers...maybe a Victorinox.
> 
> But unless you're on a strict budget I think I'd lean to thinning out an entry-level J-knife like a Carbonext instead. Personally I find even the mundane pakkawood standard handles a significant ergonomical step up from all the POM and other plastics.


The high tip will only work with tall people behind too low a board. Unusable for short people like me. The heavy handle works only for rock-choppers.
And I'm not exactly a fan of Krupp's 4116.
A cheap carbon Kanetsune, €70 with Amazon FR, will, after half an hour of work, easily outperform any Wüsthof, tweaked or not. The same with a €40 Pallarès Solsona of C60 @60Rc, if you can live with its profile. 
If it has to be a stainless, a Misono 440, at the same price level as a Wüsthof, requires only some thinning right behind the edge.


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## Benuser

Nemo said:


> Yeah, a Vic.


An excellent performer at that price point. Removing the shoulders is all you need.


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## Jovidah

I'm pretty tall with low countertops and I'm still not a fan of the massive curve and higher tip. Most of all I just don't see the point; who pulls up their knife 45 degrees to cut?! For me, all that extra curve in the profile actually makes it worse _even for rockchopping. _
And it's even worse on the shorter 20 cm / 8 inch version; those are basically all curve. I honestly don't understand why that's still the general 'go-to normy recommendation'. No wonder santokus became so popular...


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## Jovidah

Arcos 263600 koksmes, acier_inoxydable : Amazon.nl: Wonen & keuken
Arcos Atlantico 250.
30 bucks for a 250mm with a not too terrible looking profile. As cheap as the plastic Victorinox but at least it has a wooden handle. No full bolster that's getting in the way....


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## Benuser

Jovidah said:


> Arcos 263600 koksmes, acier_inoxydable : Amazon.nl: Wonen & keuken
> Arcos Atlantico 250.
> 30 bucks for a 250mm with a not too terrible looking profile. As cheap as the plastic Victorinox but at least it has a wooden handle. No full bolster that's getting in the way....


Any idea about the steel / hardness?


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## Jovidah

Some proprietary steel called Nitrium supposedly containing some nitrogen. I half expect it to be similar to the usual X50ChroMobyDick, but I really couldn't find any specifics.

They have a ton of different lines, all in the same steel covering different price ranges... but I haven't found any specifying hardness or composition.

https://www.arcos.com/en_OC/knives


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## GeneParmesan

@Benuser 
Thanks for your explenations.


Benuser said:


> I'm wondering about setting the bevel with a 4000 stone though. With me , a Wüsthof — or any Krupp's 4116 — doesn't see anything above JIS 1200, and that only for the lightest deburring. I do the sharpening on a Chosera 400, JIS 600. A 4k polished edge makes little sense with a steel showing a lack of edge stability as Roman Landes puts it: the tendency of large carbides to break out from a soft matrix. Using a high grit stone which leaves the carbides untouched but weakens the soft matrix around them a bit more won't contribute to a stable edge, even with the reasonably conservative edge of 17° you've chosen.


When I am setting the bevel before the thinning with the 4000 grid stone the goal is not to achieve sharpness.
While thinning the knife the remaining bevel can be used as an simple indicator of the progress of the thinning along the complete cutting edge.
It is easier to spot the remaining bevel when the bevel is polished. You then get a distinct mirror like reflection on the bevel compared to the scratch-pattern on the areas that are already thinned.
My 1000 grid stone is to coarse to polish the edge so I take the 4000 grid stone at hand.

When setting the bevel after thinning a 1000 grid stone could be used instead.
I am using a 4000 grid stone because it reduces the risk to accidentially take away to much material.
Because I hone my knives with a dick micro and dick polished steel to keep it sharp I am adding a micro bevel on the blade.
Therefore the stone used in the final step should not matter too much anyways.


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## GeneParmesan

Jovidah said:


> I don't think I'd take a Wüsthof for a thinning project. No amount of thinning will fix the overly rounded profile, and when it comes to the Ikon series the handle on the bigger knives is just not ergonomical to me. Also too butt-heavy for my taste. They're not overly cheap either.
> Were I to pick something for a thinning project I think I'd go for something cheap from either Spain or France. Arcos, Pallares Solsona, one of hte Sabatiers...maybe a Victorinox.
> 
> But unless you're on a strict budget I think I'd lean to thinning out an entry-level J-knife like a Carbonext instead. Personally I find even the mundane pakkawood standard handles a significant ergonomical step up from all the POM and other plastics.


My thinning projects start with knives that have a design that appeales to me.
if I can not be buy something similar that is already thinn enough for my needs I adapt the geometry by myself.
+1 on thinning Sabatiers. I like them a lot.


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## Benuser

GeneParmesan said:


> My thinning projects start with knives that have a design that appeales to me.
> if I can not be buy something similar that is already thinn enough for my needs I adapt the geometry by myself.
> +1 on thinning Sabatiers. I like them a lot.











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Could interest you. C75 @ 60Rc. Can be maintained with your Dickoron and will benefit from some good thinning.


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## Benuser

By the way, when thinning with sandpaper it's an option to round the spine, at least on the right side. Not only for comfort. When going a bit further, food release will benefit from taking away a bit more steel, as in the 'Kesselscher Walkschliff'.



I don't round the left side, as I want the spine to remain square to allow better sliding of produce on the board.


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## Benuser

Jovidah said:


> Some proprietary steel called Nitrium supposedly containing some nitrogen. I half expect it to be similar to the usual X50ChroMobyDick, but I really couldn't find any specifics.
> 
> They have a ton of different lines, all in the same steel covering different price ranges... but I haven't found any specifying hardness or composition.
> 
> Kitchen knives and accesories | Arcos® Official


Recieved the Arcos today. Well made, huge, nice rosewood handle, balance point at the absent bolster, so a tad behind the heel. Home user in mind: rounded, seriously thickened tip. Handsharpened, not fully deburred: could easily deburr on a Chosera 2k (!) Not what I expect with a soft stainless. Most of them are very abrasion resistant, have large, if not clustering carbides. Not this one. Sharpens like carbon. Now removing the shoulders and thinning with a Chosera 400. Still don't know what the steel is: anyway, it's finely grained and far from abrasion resistant.


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## Wagnum

Sorry it's not European but here's my Moritaka after thinning 



Before thinning this thing couldn't make through an old soft potato without splitting. I tried to give it some convexity but ended up just rounding the shinogi for the most part. Cuts like a dream now


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## HansCaravan

I don't have pictures, but I've been slowly working down the shoulders on two Zwillings. One is my Pro 20cm chef and the other the 18cm rocking santoku. The aren't in the same league as my knives with zero grinds, but they cut significantly better after a couple of sessions on the King 300.


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## HumbleHomeCook

Jovidah said:


> I don't think I'd take a Wüsthof for a thinning project. No amount of thinning will fix the overly rounded profile, and when it comes to the Ikon series the handle on the bigger knives is just not ergonomical to me. Also too butt-heavy for my taste. They're not overly cheap either.
> Were I to pick something for a thinning project I think I'd go for something cheap from either Spain or France. Arcos, Pallares Solsona, one of hte Sabatiers...maybe a Victorinox.
> 
> But unless you're on a strict budget I think I'd lean to thinning out an entry-level J-knife like a Carbonext instead. Personally I find even the mundane pakkawood standard handles a significant ergonomical step up from all the POM and other plastics.



I thinned and relieved the shoulders on a Wusthof Gourmet 8" chef's knife and it dramatically changed it and it's actually a nice performer, relatively speaking. I don't use it much anymore but it was a project that gave me the confidence to jump into Japanese knives.


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## Jovidah

Unironically I think the cheaper Wusties might be better balanced because they're less rear heavy. Still has a similar crap profile tho. Plenty of other European alternatives exist.


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## Jovidah

Benuser said:


> Recieved the Arcos today. Well made, huge, nice rosewood handle, balance point at the absent bolster, so a tad behind the heel. Home user in mind: rounded, seriously thickened tip. Handsharpened, not fully deburred: could easily deburr on a Chosera 2k (!) Not what I expect with a soft stainless. Most of them are very abrasion resistant, have large, if not clustering carbides. Not this one. Sharpens like carbon. Now removing the shoulders and thinning with a Chosera 400. Still don't know what the steel is: anyway, it's finely grained and far from abrasion resistant.


I assume you bought the 250 Atlantico?
How is it in actual use? 
I've seen the 'relative thickening' of the tip on a LOT of factory knives. I think it's not so much a deliberate design choice as it is a limitation of the cnc machines doing the grinding.


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## Benuser

Jovidah said:


> I assume you bought the 250 Atlantico?
> How is it in actual use?
> I've seen the 'relative thickening' of the tip on a LOT of factory knives. I think it's not so much a deliberate design choice as it is a limitation of the cnc machines doing the grinding.


In this case it's no relative thickening, as with a Herder chef's or a Misono, where the distal taper stopped, but a real thickening of the spine.



The tip's asymmetry is due to my sharpening. Quite sure I will remove the thickening as it hinders with any tip work. The tip itself was cut off, but was an easy fix: it took me two minutes with a nail file.


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## Jovidah

So...negative taper? I guess that means tip performance is poo poo?


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## Benuser

A bulge just before the tip. Never seen before.


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## Jovidah

On the positive side, I guess that does make it quite stiff all the way to the tip? Would make for a good slicer.


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## Benuser

I guess the idea was to avoid broken tips or so.


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## Benuser

Jovidah said:


> So...negative taper? I guess that means tip performance is poo poo?


I knocked-off the shoulders prior to any use. OOTB it would probably have been terrible.


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## Jovidah

Still a great thinning candidate considering the price though. 25-30 euros for a 25 cm with a half-decent looking wood handle... anything else you get for that kind of price will be ultracheap with plastic handles. You don't even get a Victorinox fibrox for that price anymore.


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## Benuser

Jovidah said:


> Still a great thinning candidate considering the price though. 25-30 euros for a 25 cm with a half-decent looking wood handle... anything else you get for that kind of price will be ultracheap with plastic handles. You don't even get a Victorinox fibrox for that price anymore.


Nothing half-decent about the handle! It's actually very nice.








If one can live with a vintage Sab this is a good option. Hardness is similar, and the steel is similarly finely grained, with little abrasion resistance, taking and holding a fine polished edge. In that respect very different from other budget stainless. Someone suggested it could be N680 by Böhler-Uddeholm. Keep a very fine steel or a piece of Belgian Blue nearby, and you'll be fine.


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## HumbleHomeCook

Jovidah said:


> Unironically I think the cheaper Wusties might be better balanced because they're less rear heavy. Still has a similar crap profile tho. Plenty of other European alternatives exist.



I agree 100% on the cheaper ones feeling nicer. I've never liked the Ikon and similar series. Pure marketing BS in my mind.


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## HansCaravan

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I thinned and relieved the shoulders on a Wusthof Gourmet 8" chef's knife and *it dramatically changed it and it's actually a nice performer, relatively speaking.* I don't use it much anymore but it was a project that gave me the confidence to jump into Japanese knives.



This has been my experience as well


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## Jovidah

Benuser said:


> Nothing half-decent about the handle! It's actually very nice.
> 
> View attachment 187888
> 
> 
> 
> If one can live with a vintage Sab this is a good option. Hardness is similar, and the steel is similarly finely grained, with little abrasion resistance, taking and holding a fine polished edge. In that respect very different from other budget stainless. Someone suggested it could be N680 by Böhler-Uddeholm. Keep a very fine steel or a piece of Belgian Blue nearby, and you'll be fine.


How's the profile / tip height? More German or more French?


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## Benuser

Jovidah said:


> How's the profile / tip height? More German or more French?


This very short guy can just use the tip!
Herder, Arcos, Misono.


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## 4wa1l

Benuser said:


> Nothing half-decent about the handle! It's actually very nice.
> 
> View attachment 187888
> 
> 
> 
> If one can live with a vintage Sab this is a good option. Hardness is similar, and the steel is similarly finely grained, with little abrasion resistance, taking and holding a fine polished edge. In that respect very different from other budget stainless. Someone suggested it could be N680 by Böhler-Uddeholm. Keep a very fine steel or a piece of Belgian Blue nearby, and you'll be fine.


Actually I'm pretty sure a friend of mine has one of these. I've sharpened it a couple of times and used it briefly. I like it a lot and the steel seemed easy to work with even compared to carbon. It took a nice edge off a chosera 800. Next time I sharpen it I'll take a closer look and maybe thin it a little for him.


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## Benuser

4wa1l said:


> Actually I'm pretty sure a friend of mine has one of these. I've sharpened it a couple of times and used it briefly. I like it a lot and the steel seemed easy to work with even compared to carbon. It took a nice edge off a chosera 800. Next time I sharpen it I'll take a closer look and maybe thin it a little for him.


The same day I did about the same work on the Arcos with a Chosera 400 and a Böker C75 chef's with a SG220. The Arcos was much easier.
By the way: no reason to stop at Chosera 800 with it. My deburring of the factory edge was with a Chosera 2k (JIS3k), and I can maintain a much thinner edge with Belgian Blue. No reason to avoid high grits like with German soft stainless.


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## Heckel7302

A few mentions of Victorinox in this thread. Before I learned to sharpen, I’d buy a new Vic every year or two after they got so dull that they couldn’t even cut butter anymore, no matter how much I steeled them. Staring at a drawer of six dull Vics is what pushed me into this wonderful world of knives and sharpening. Four of them landed (freshly sharpened) with friends and family. Two I kept. One I kept stock, and the other I used as my first thinning/refinishing project.

Here they are. Both are great, but you can guess which one has the distinct performance advantage. The thinned one gets a lot more use and is actually 1.5mm shorter than the stock one.


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## sumis

Benuser said:


> Nothing half-decent about the handle! It's actually very nice.
> 
> View attachment 187888
> 
> 
> 
> If one can live with a vintage Sab this is a good option. Hardness is similar, and the steel is similarly finely grained, with little abrasion resistance, taking and holding a fine polished edge. In that respect very different from other budget stainless. Someone suggested it could be N680 by Böhler-Uddeholm. Keep a very fine steel or a piece of Belgian Blue nearby, and you'll be fine.



i once severed a fingertip (my own) with one of those …

.


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