# Masakage Shimo Demo Knife, I purchased, flaws exposed...



## Umberto

I bought this knife with the impression that I was getting a basically flawless knife that was lightly used in a demonstration video. It was advertised on the site as a demo knife. However when I got the knife I noticed a crack in the cladding toward the tip of the blade. 

MrKinfeFanatic goes on in his video raving about the fit and finish yet fails to expose this somewhat major flaw. Although it is likely only a cosmetic blemish it is on the knife and should have been spoken about in the video. Pause the video at 18 seconds. Look towards the rockwell specs and half an inch from the tip. There is a little black line that looks like some dirt or hair. That's a crack in the cladding. I attached a photo, it's not easy to photograph, it looks worse in person than the photo suggests. 

Isn't it funny how he disabled comments? After pointing this out and expressing disappointment on the forum I was issued a permanent ban. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X65dA9waTk

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1ftisy&s=8#.U6xjM-hRfIU


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## WildBoar

Did you contact them directly and ask to return it based on them providing incomplete information on the condition of the knife?


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## Umberto

I was offered a refund however, I wanted to try the white steel again one more day and had an accident at work. The blade chipped and had to be repaired, so I kept it simply because it wouldn't be right returning a re-shaped knife. I just want to point out that the behavior of a particular vendor, doesn't take kindly to criticisms of his products.

If you aren't shilling for him on his forums, you'll likely be banned. It should be noted that reviewer of the knife obviously did not discuss the crack in the top of the cladding. As small as it is, we are talking about a three hundred dollar knife.


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## erikz

Masakage are great knives. I own a shimo 150mm petty and its without any imperfections. 

I do agree they should have mentioned the defect in the cladding.


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## WildBoar

Umberto said:


> I was offered a refund however, I wanted to try the white steel again one more day and had an accident at work. The blade chipped and had to be repaired, so I kept it simply because it wouldn't be right returning a re-shaped knife. I just want to point out that the behavior of a particular vendor, doesn't take kindly to criticisms of his products.
> 
> If you aren't shilling for him on his forums, you'll likely be banned. It should be noted that reviewer of the knife obviously did not discuss the crack in the top of the cladding. As small as it is, we are talking about a three hundred dollar knife.


This forum largely exists due to issues with that vendor, so at the end of the day it is no great surprise. But he did offer a refund so he was willing to make you whole. The banning due to comments on the forum is a crappy way to operate, but as a businessman at least he offered to make things right with you. The issue of whether or not he was being deceitful depends on whether or not one believes the reviewer checked the knife thoroughly enough to pick up on the issue. Good chance they did not.


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## Umberto

To Marks defense he did try to make it right and also tried to prevent a forum ban however the 7 other inmates at the asylum decided to give me the boot. Personally I think product shilling ought to be done independently of business owners. I'm just a bit irked that the reviewer had my knife, the same very knife and failed to mention the imperfection in the cladding. Perhaps the crack is from the hammering process, or maybe when it was quenched...I don't know.

I like the knife enough but will hopefully sell it to somebody at a good discount in hopes they will gain a good appreciation of Hitachi steels.


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## lucabrasi

People who have seen enough of your posts here can likely deduce that refusing to shill was not what got you banned there.


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## daveb

I'm somewhat surprised you didn't get the boot here after your thread disparaging Mr. Martell. You don't need to kick sand everywhere you go.


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## Boondocker

Umberto, let me be blunt here. I hope I don't offend the forum members either, but you earned a ban there - nothing anybody else did.

You have a habit of running around laying blame on everybody else but yourself. How many knives is this now? 3? 4? that have gotten messed up by you at work, but its always somebody elses fault? I can think of at least two on the other forum, this and maybe another here. Also your thread lambasting Dave Martell.

"If everybody else is always the problem, perhaps its time to look in the mirror"

You want to make it in the industry? Either be prepared to work at a hack joint, get fired from high quality places repeatedly, or look up the term humble. Learn to put your ******* head down and shut up kid.


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## Umberto

Accidents happen with knives, they are meant to be used. Personally I still would like to see some evidence that Moritaka has terrible holes and grinds. The lack of supporting evidence just doesn't exist. I find it funny that Dave Martell said he would no longer sharpen Moritaka then he changes his tune and say's he'll sharpen them for an inflated fee. Either you sharpen knives, or you don't. 

I think it's dishonest to denigrate a company for bad products on a forum and not even provide one iota of visual proof of anything being flawed. Where are the holes in the grind? I'm not buying it. Is it so much to ask for proof of overgrinds and holes in the blade? A good digital camera should be able to capture these problems. Dave also went on to say a Takeda knife was not able to be sharpened...then the knife goes and get's sharpened by another guy and the client is happy.

So either he's lying or his isn't. I am not inclined to believe Moritaka knives are as bad as he says.


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## erikz

He did not state Takeda's couldn't be sharpened, he said his current output needed a lot of thinning.

The only thing you seem to do is bashing others, be it vendors, be it knife makers who's skills you're shilling etc. etc. 

Im with Boondocker on this; get your act together and stop spreading your negative vibe.


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## MowgFace

[video=youtube_share;OSf13E71cWQ]http://youtu.be/OSf13E71cWQ[/video]

I never thought i would be linking a video of this guy. Skip to 9:41 and pause it, there appears to be almost an inch long section of cladding near the heel that extends to the edge.

Seems like a hole to me.


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## Umberto

So basically he didn't want to waste his time on thinning because it would take to long for him to justify the labor and make a profit. Ken obviously didn't mind doing it and the customer is happy. 

Second of all. I don't think it is so much to ask that some real verifiable proof be provided for the Moritaka problems. If they are so obvious why aren't they documented. It's basically Dave's word and nobody else has anything to go on but what Dave says. That's a red flag for me. I think it's entirely possible that Dave got a statistically low quantity of bad knives from a producer who makes so many knives. 

There is a probability there...But why do we not see these so called holes? Heck some dial caliper measurements would be pretty simple...if the grinding is that bad. Dave should have better evidence.


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## Lizzardborn

So some guy on the internet said something you don't agree with. World first.

If you don't trust Dave - buy a Moritaka. If you are a stakeholder in Moritaka sales - state clearly your interest and politely ask for clarification if you think Mr. Martell opinion is both so wrong and valuable. 

The community here is awesome, helpful, everybody loves good knives and I have yet to see a knife bashing out of spite. People here have given advice, tips and tricks free of charge that contains years of learning and discovery. It is up to you to decide what to trust or not. This is the second topic going down the drain about someone's opinion you don't agree with - can you say at least why it is so important for you?


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## Boondocker

Isn't making a profit the point of running a business or am I missing something here.


Also how did your knife accidentally end up in a vice grip and snapped in half while you were working? Did you accidentally bend the other knife beyond repair while cutting carrots or something?


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## lucabrasi

I like how you took this as an invitation to bring back up your nonsense about Dave Martell. Because it went over so well before.

Seriously guy, it's probably time for some Dexter-Russell sani safe.


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## matt79

dude no wonder you are sending dodgy food to customers obviously your busy breaking knives whilest at work.No seriously though i have got to admit you are the most entertaining moron on kkf at the moment.Really at work I dont have the patience for people like you ;i just tell them to get the **** out my kitchen and never come back, but after a couple of glasses of malt I find it thoroughly amusing how you manage to get egg all over your face each time you post here.Keep it coming
cheers


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## mhlee

Umberto said:


> So basically he didn't want to waste his time on thinning because it would take to long for him to justify the labor and make a profit. Ken obviously didn't mind doing it and the customer is happy.
> 
> Second of all. I don't think it is so much to ask that some real verifiable proof be provided for the Moritaka problems. If they are so obvious why aren't they documented. It's basically Dave's word and nobody else has anything to go on but what Dave says. That's a red flag for me. I think it's entirely possible that Dave got a statistically low quantity of bad knives from a producer who makes so many knives.
> 
> There is a probability there...But why do we not see these so called holes? Heck some dial caliper measurements would be pretty simple...if the grinding is that bad. Dave should have better evidence.



OK. Go buy a Moritaka. Tell us how it is.

There are enough threads here of owners talking about overgrinds. If you don't want to believe those owners, again, go buy one and tell us how it is.


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## Lizzardborn

A little offtopic but since this is going down the drain - what is overgrind (and I assume undergrind) - google image search didn't manage to answer me.


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## Pensacola Tiger

Lizzardborn said:


> A little offtopic but since this is going down the drain - what is overgrind (and I assume undergrind) - google image search didn't manage to answer me.



This is an overgrind on a new Moritaka that has become apparent while flattening the blade road. 





It was not deep enough to produce a hole, as this next pic of the flattened blade road shows.





If it had been deep enough, a "hole", or area where the edge does not make contact with the board, would have formed as the knife was sharpened over time.


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## Boondocker

The Dexter Russell would indeed survive dropping "heavy plastic film on it" much better.


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## erikz

Umberto said:


> So basically he didn't want to waste his time on thinning because it would take to long for him to justify the labor and make a profit. Ken obviously didn't mind doing it and the customer is happy.


Do you actually understand what business is about? Not about going out of business is it? Every business needs to turn a profit, and if Dave thought it wouldnt be profitable, who are you to judge that call and spreadimg unjustified slander?


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## Umberto

Slander? Dave Martell has insulted the Moritaka brand as being poorly ground and having holes in blades...Is asking for verifiable proof so much to ask?

Why should Dave Martell be given a free pass to insult the Moritaka brand without providing proof. Dave goes on to say he no longer sharpens Moritaka, then he say's he'll do it at an increased cost. He refuses to work on a Takeda because he doesn't want to spend the time on the blade...

That's not slander, that's fact...Dave obviously likes to make excuses to his clients why he can't do his job as a professional sharpener.

I'm asking for some reasonable documentation...If Moritaka are so horrible and Dave has seen so many bad blades where is the evidence?


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## daveb

Google is your friend. Maybe.


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## Pensacola Tiger

Umberto said:


> Slander? Dave Martell has insulted the Moritaka brand as being poorly ground and having holes in blades...Is asking for verifiable proof so much to ask?
> 
> Why should Dave Martell be given a free pass to insult the Moritaka brand without providing proof. Dave goes on to say he no longer sharpens Moritaka, then he say's he'll do it at an increased cost. He refuses to work on a Takeda because he doesn't want to spend the time on the blade...
> 
> That's not slander, that's fact...Dave obviously likes to make excuses to his clients why he can't do his job as a professional sharpener.
> 
> I'm asking for some reasonable documentation...If Moritaka are so horrible and Dave has seen so many bad blades where is the evidence?



Okay, since you are unable or unwilling to do a basic search of KKF, I'll do it for you.

*How to identify grind issues*

The proof you so vociferously demand is on the last page.

I think an apology is in order.


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## erikz

So there it is.

Oh wait, the overgrind is probably Dave's doing right?


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## jai

This might aound uncalled for but kkf was a peaceful relaxing place for the knife nut to chill after work. Since you arrived I cant fking stand it go ruin someone elses life you tosser. All you do is go on about things that we have already discussed and understand and try and prove us wrong. From your posts about sharpening you obviouslly know very little about sharpening and even if you want to wank off about how good you are the point is you SERVED **** FOOD SO **** OFF. you are a discrace to being a chef and are what makes this industry so annoying. maybe you should learn to understand things before you open your ******** mouth. Just because you point some things out and they are valid doesent mean you need to constantly change subjects to start fights. PLEASE **** OFF AND DONT COME BACK.


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## brainsausage

Anybody else hear crickets...?


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## erikz

He'll be back bashing someone else, don't worry.


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## jai

I hope so hes probably sitting in a room with all our names written on the walls and everything hes found that he can dog us for.


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## DDPslice

I agree with the general statement that umberto is rude and and a tinge annoying (airing dirty laundry rather than handling the problem honestly and privately). But I see his point that there is a severe bias on this forum, whether earned or paid for I'm still trying to decide. Sometimes it is confusing. An analogy: NPR receives donations from Putnam investments, yes the journalists tell stories that are generally connected and most of the time it is positive. But you don't see Teri Gross rubbing her balls fawning over every investor like I see here as much as they have a right to be. But where is the pursuit to find better investments and advancing horizons? I read a thread of DT talking/teaching and comparing different steels, however a little biased but only a little. The thread was informative and helpful and I appreciated it. But when people rep EE, JNS, or Japan tool and all the others (no offense guys)I feel like people here are saying "take my money, I don't want it!" and for the prices hell you guys could fund a US university. I found that different dealers have the same knives at drastically different prices (shig for an example). Where is the competition? Also why do people here hate CKTG? Umberto, are you that sinical that you think the guy you bought your knife from is wringing his hands, cackling and counting his gold, reminesing how he sold a knife with a crack to one person? Reading your post made me think; if i was in his position i might, but probably not. For the most part I enjoy reading what people have to say here and I've learned a lot but only so much. There is an invisible wall here that no-one dares to piss on, and I find that to be limiting me in my pursuit of knowledge about my tools.


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## Lizzardborn

Use paragraphs. Helps with readability. 

Now for bias - if you read a bit more you will see that there are a lot of vendors and products that are often recommended that have no official rep or financial interest here.


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## Boondocker

Did he get banned or chased off?

Either way, its rather peaceful now.


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## JDA_NC

DDPslice said:


> But when people rep EE, JNS, or Japan tool and all the others (no offense guys)I feel like people here are saying "take my money, I don't want it!" and for the prices hell you guys could fund a US university. I found that different dealers have the same knives at drastically different prices (shig for an example). Where is the competition? Also why do people here hate CKTG?



I feel this is the most unbiased kitchen knife forum on the internet. That I've found at least. There are vendors here and the general collective body of posters certainly have their preferences when it comes to different vendors, stones, and knives - but that's true everywhere I've seen and it's less blatant here.

It's hard for me to read the CKTG forum these days. I just feel there is a very, very strong marketing push. It's attached to a vendor so it's understandable. But if you read, say, the sharpening section - you are almost guaranteed to see Ken pushing his Nummmbattamma (word is banned here) stones [I actually own one], or one of the natural stones he sells, or Shaun/************** promoting his 'stone set' (Latte/Iman, Naniwa Green Brick, and Snow White) in a thread. Unless you're reading a vendor subforum you will not see that being done here and even in those, they tend to be less pushy.

I feel like in many ways that can be misleading to new people. 90% of people do not need a Naniwa Snow White [own one of those too]. Owning a different Nummmbattamma stone for every 500 grits is not productive or even helpful. The forum seems much bigger on Shapton Pro stones these days and I think those are solid options, but for a long time they were really big on the Shapton GS 1k+4k combo [own that as well]. I think the Shapton 4k GS is a horrible, horrible stone for someone new to sharpening.

I own a Richmond Artifex and while I think it's a decent knife, there are better options for that price point IMO. I bought the CKTG diamond plate and it was so unbelievably warped that it was useless for flattening stones. Their videos have gotten better recently but for a long time the technique as far as sharpening & testing/using a knife was atrocious. Really, really cringe-worthy.

I've only had experience with two vendors here (JKI & JNS) but my experiences with them has been wonderful. All the products I've received have been exceptional at worst and I've found them to be open and approachable. They've also both been very helpful in increasing my knowledge about knives, stones, and sharpening. More so than anywhere else. So yeah, it might cost a little bit more, but I'm a believer in putting my money where my mouth is and I'm completely happy to support businesses that I really like. And I'm confident it'll be a good experience. If I'm a vocal supporter of some of their products it's only because I really believe in them. I think that's the case for most of what you read here.

Just my take.


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## Mute-on

jai said:


> This might aound uncalled for but kkf was a peaceful relaxing place for the knife nut to chill after work. Since you arrived I cant fking stand it go ruin someone elses life you tosser. All you do is go on about things that we have already discussed and understand and try and prove us wrong. From your posts about sharpening you obviouslly know very little about sharpening and even if you want to wank off about how good you are the point is you SERVED **** FOOD SO **** OFF. you are a discrace to being a chef and are what makes this industry so annoying. maybe you should learn to understand things before you open your ******** mouth. Just because you point some things out and they are valid doesent mean you need to constantly change subjects to start fights. PLEASE **** OFF AND DONT COME BACK.



Makes me proud to be an Aussie :doublethumbsup:


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## DDPslice

JDA_NC said:


> I
> 
> I've only had experience with two vendors here (JKI & JNS) but my experiences with them has been wonderful.
> 
> Just my take.



Yea I would agree, I have had good experiences and most people and vendors here are helpful and contribute to a good topic. I like this forum and maybe because i haven't bothered with other forums that I don't know the other side(whoops! ;p). The grass feels fuzzy and the sun is shining, I think I'll pull up a grill and have a beer. And hope that my time here I haven't stepped on too many toes. Can this thread die now?


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