# Polishing stones



## TheCaptain (Jan 1, 2017)

Looking for suggestions for koppa stones for polishing. I have a pretty good range of sharpening stones and am getting somewhat decent at putting on an edge. 

Also looking for suggestions for naguras. It's absolutely fascinating the different feel and results you can get on the same stone with slurries from different naguras.

Once I get some ideas I'll put a post in non knife BST for these an maybe splitting on a few big stones to make finger stones.

Thanks all!


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## Smashmasta (Jan 1, 2017)

Polishing double bevel edges or single bevels kirehas?


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## TheCaptain (Jan 1, 2017)

At the moment only double bevel edges. I don't know if I'll ever get into single bevels.


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## chinacats (Jan 1, 2017)

This may be somewhat blasphemous but my favorite stone for working with naguras is a cheap Chinese stone from the hardware store. I use this combination on razors but pretty sure it would serve it's purpose. Mine cost roughly ten dollars a few years ago.


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## Nemo (Jan 1, 2017)

chinacats said:


> This may be somewhat blasphemous but my favorite stone for working with naguras is a cheap Chinese stone from the hardware store. I use this combination on razors but pretty sure it would serve it's purpose. Mine cost roughly ten dollars a few years ago.



Got a photo CC?

Anyone else had experience with cheap Chinese naturals? I heard that some Chinese grocers sell them but no idea if/how they perform.


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## foody518 (Jan 1, 2017)

Wide bevel clad knives? Polishing for visual effect primarily?


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## Marek07 (Jan 1, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Got a photo CC?
> 
> Anyone else had experience with cheap Chinese naturals? I heard that some Chinese grocers sell them but no idea if/how they perform.


I've got a Chinese natural from a local chef supply store. They are OK for reasonable results - certainly best bang for buck you can imagine. They come in a standard stone size of around 200mm x 65mm and in three thicknesses, the thickest is ~20mm. The price point is seriously low - (in US$) $2, $4 & $7. They are sold in a fairly rough condition but flatten easily in a few minutes. Badgertooth is pretty sure they are slate.


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## TheCaptain (Jan 1, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Wide bevel clad knives? Polishing for visual effect primarily?



Polishing is for visual effect primarily. Also if I wasn't a newbie I'd be embarassed to admit I don't know what you mean by a wide bevel.

But hey, no pride here and you guys are awesome.


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## Marek07 (Jan 1, 2017)

@Nemo, as CC is probably asleep, here's a couple of photos of my cheap C-nat:
http://s86.photobucket.com/user/Marek-07/media/C1_zpsc4ospcpx.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s86.photobucket.com/user/Marek-07/media/C2_zpshavxzhpq.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0


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## khashy (Jan 1, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Polishing is for visual effect primarily. Also if I wasn't a newbie I'd be embarassed to admit I don't know what you mean by a wide bevel.
> 
> But hey, no pride here and you guys are awesome.



Here is wide bevel:







Compared to a non-wide:


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## Smashmasta (Jan 1, 2017)

Pretty much anything over 4-5k will start to give a polish of some sort. Generally, the harder and finer the stone, the higher the polish (decent hazy polish to mirror). I think you're progressing to the point where you can start looking more towards what stratas the stone comes from, rather than the mine. Of course there are famous mines that are known to produce more consistent stones suitable for polishing than others, some of which I have listed below, but many mines produce good polishing stones. Generally, although there are some examples from the Tenjyou suita strata that can polish, most polishing stones will start to originate from the Tomae strata downward, especially once you get to the Namito strata (of course there are exceptions to this as well). I mention razor stones below, but to quickly elaborate - the harder the stone, the greater the polish. Jnats are almost always siliceous shale, which is softer than slate, the next metamorphic stage of sedimentary et al stones. Razor stones are generally a form of slate or even harder metamorphic stones, a and thus tend to be much harder than Jnats for the most part. Just a quick FYI.

You likely know, but koppa refers to a smaller, sometimes irregularly shaped stone that isn't symmetrical eg bench stone, so when asking about stones, just asking for the characteristics should suffice. There aren't really any stones that always come 'koppa' size, thus asking for koppa stones isn't the most clear thing. It will be up to you to find the suggested stones in koppa size. JNS and Aframes typically have koppa sizes.

Anyways, considering the above, in no particular order, some standby stones that give good polishes would be from - Aiiwatani, Atagoyama, Hakka, Yaginoshima, Narutaki, Oozuku, , Shinden, Oohira, Okudu, Nakayama, Shoubudani, Mauroyama, Hideriyama, fine Tamba and Kouzaki Aoto, Mizukihara, Takashima. Some 'lesser' known mines that produce fine polishing stones are Wakasa, Ozaki, Kizuyama, Kokurayama, and this list goes on and on.

Stones from around the world, pretty much anything used in the razor world - Coticules and most other Belgian stones, all sorts of slates, black and translucent Arkansas stones, Thuringian stones, etc, etc. I've been diving into the razor rabbit hole lately, so I can give you more suggestions if you PM, as they can number in the dozens. In fact, if you're looking for polishing and smaller sized stones, you might want to direct your attention to razors stones... 

As far as nagura, are you looking for naguras that help with polishing, or just naguras to try out? If the latter, ANYTHING can be used as a nagura, as I imagine you know. The most common nagura is the Tsushima, which many vendors carry, and is great for polishing. The classical Mikawa nagura sets - Botan, Tenjyou, Meijiro, and Koma are famous for their progressives effects especially in razors, but are more expensive, especially if Asano stamped. Many people actually use koppa sized stones as nagura, even sometimes whole bench stones on other bench stones. I know Aframes has a number of suita nagura, which would be good for polishing, so that could be a good place to start.


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## Smashmasta (Jan 1, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Polishing is for visual effect primarily. Also if I wasn't a newbie I'd be embarassed to admit I don't know what you mean by a wide bevcel.
> 
> But hey, no pride here and you guys are awesome.



This wide bevel is a characteristic of single bevel knives - Kataba or Kataha, vs double bevels - Ryoba. The wide bevel is called a Kireha or Kiriba, roughly translated to 'blade road' or 'blade path'. Unless they're honyaki blades (one type of steel), single bevel knives have a lamination line, or Hazakai, where the jigane, the softer outside cladding steel meets the harder hagane steel that makes up the cutting edge. Polishing wide bevels is a big thing, which is why you were asked by a couple people to clarify single for double bevel knives. You've probably seen the word Kasumi thrown around here, and that's the classic 'mist' finish on the bevel. To learn more, hit the kitchen knife part of the forum.


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## khashy (Jan 1, 2017)

Smashmasta said:


> Pretty much anything over 4-5k will start to give a polish of some sort. Generally, the harder and finer the stone, the higher the polish (decent hazy polish to mirror). I think you're progressing to the point where you can start looking more towards what stratas the stone comes from, rather than the mine. Of course there are famous mines that are known to produce more consistent stones suitable for polishing than others, some of which I have listed below, but many mines produce good polishing stones. Generally, although there are some examples from the Tenjyou suita strata that can polish, most polishing stones will start to originate from the Tomae strata downward, especially once you get to the Namito strata (of course there are exceptions to this as well). I mention razor stones below, but to quickly elaborate - the harder the stone, the greater the polish. Jnats are almost always siliceous shale, which is softer than slate, the next metamorphic stage of sedimentary et al stones. Razor stones are generally a form of slate or even harder metamorphic stones, a and thus tend to be much harder than Jnats for the most part. Just a quick FYI.
> 
> You likely know, but koppa refers to a smaller, sometimes irregularly shaped stone that isn't symmetrical eg bench stone, so when asking about stones, just asking for the characteristics should suffice. There aren't really any stones that always come 'koppa' size, thus asking for koppa stones isn't the most clear thing. It will be up to you to find the suggested stones in koppa size. JNS and Aframes typically have koppa sizes.
> 
> ...




I'm taking a screenshot of this post and setting it as the background of all my devices

:thumbsup:


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## foody518 (Jan 1, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Polishing is for visual effect primarily. Also if I wasn't a newbie I'd be embarassed to admit I don't know what you mean by a wide bevel.
> 
> But hey, no pride here and you guys are awesome.



Asking to understand exactly what you're wanting to do. For example if you just care about the shiny-ness of the ~1mm primary bevel on a narrow beveled knife, a 6-8k hard synthetic stone is going to do just fine of a job. If you're thinking of shiny-ing up the blade face of a knife or something like that, that's different. If you got bit by the kasumi contrast/polish bug, wanted to ascertain you have the right kind of knives for that


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## Smashmasta (Jan 1, 2017)

khashy said:


> I'm taking a screenshot of this post and setting it as the background of all my devices
> 
> :thumbsup:



Haha, I'm honored and humbled. :rolleyes2:


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## khashy (Jan 1, 2017)

Smashmasta said:


> Haha, I'm honored and humbled. :rolleyes2:



Please don't be surprised or mad if you see an unsolicited message from me in your inbox asking for help :wink:


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## Nemo (Jan 1, 2017)

Marek07 said:


> @Nemo, as CC is probably asleep, here's a couple of photos of my cheap C-nat:
> http://s86.photobucket.com/user/Marek-07/media/C1_zpsc4ospcpx.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
> http://s86.photobucket.com/user/Marek-07/media/C2_zpshavxzhpq.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0



Thanks Marek. It was your suggestion that made me curious about these stones.

Yes, they do look like skate don't they?


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## chinacats (Jan 1, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Got a photo CC?
> 
> Anyone else had experience with cheap Chinese naturals? I heard that some Chinese grocers sell them but no idea if/how they perform.





Marek07 said:


> @Nemo, as CC is probably asleep, here's a couple of photos of my cheap C-nat:
> http://s86.photobucket.com/user/Marek-07/media/C1_zpsc4ospcpx.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
> http://s86.photobucket.com/user/Marek-07/media/C2_zpshavxzhpq.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0



So mine looks a bit different but likely behaves similarly. The five smaller stones are all nagura. In my understanding only the 2 small dark colored stones are technically nagura as there cut from the same stones they're meant to be used on. My preference is using the large yellow one (actually half size of original--it broke) followed by the two white ones if I'm going through a 'full progression' on a razor. I don't use these on knives but thought I'd add a couple knife pics since you asked about wide bevel knives...the first is a wide bevel Kochi and the second is not a wide bevel--not sure what it's called but this one's a Watanabe. The C-nat is under the blade, the largest stone is a J-nat from Maxim, the 2 dark color ones are Welsh stones. 












Not sure what's up with the pics but they're not oriented as posted?


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## XooMG (Jan 1, 2017)

Smashmasta said:


> The wide bevel is called a Kireha or Kiriba, roughly translated to 'blade road' or 'blade path'.


Be careful what you regurgitate. Those are not even remotely accurate translations.


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## Nemo (Jan 1, 2017)

Nice collection CC. Both the knives and the stones.

Sorry for the slight detour fron topic, but are they the same handles on both knives. I like. Is it maple ferrule? What's the darker wood?


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## chinacats (Jan 1, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Nice collection CC. Both the knives and the stones.
> 
> Sorry for the slight detour fron topic, but are they the same handles on both knives. I like. Is it maple ferrule? What's the darker wood?



Thanks, both handles are done by Mikey. Kochi is in blue dyed maple with black oak ferrule/buttcap, Watanabe is redwood with same combination of black oak. Both handles are built to the same spec...there's a third in the set as well. 

Where/how is Mikey, long time no see:scratchhead:?

Sorry for more detour...back to polishing stones


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## daveb (Jan 1, 2017)

Marek07 said:


> @Nemo, as CC is probably asleep, .....



CC never sleeps.


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## Nemo (Jan 1, 2017)

daveb said:


> CC never sleeps.



This made me chuckle.


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## Smashmasta (Jan 1, 2017)

XooMG said:


> Be careful what you regurgitate. Those are not even remotely accurate translations.



Interesting. If you have a better translation, please share. I don't mean to sound snarky, but I disagree with you. Here are some sources (search for kiriba, kireha): Korin and a slightly different version here, the well known Zknives site used often as reference on this forum (more expansive glossary here) and a mention of 'blade road' here, and one from Yoshiro's site. Both words have passed translation from Forvo.com's Japanese admin who I talk with about words I upload (Forvo is a super useful site if anyone wants to take a look). A very useful book that everyone should get that has it translated is Japanese Kitchen Knives: Essential Techniques and Recipes. See below for a picture of the translation. 

I could certainly be wrong, and I don't mean to sound rude, but if you're not going to provide an alternate translation that you think is correct, but just say "be careful what you regurgitate," you come off a little abrasive, which doesn't help anyone. Again, I'm only going with what I've studied, and conversed with people about, so here are a few of my sources; I could still be wrong. But please provide your sources or thoughts so we can work on ironing it out so everyone can be using the correct translation.


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## XooMG (Jan 2, 2017)

Basic Japanese literacy explains why accurate translation is avoided: it causes ambiguity in English.

I guess I just disagree over how "rough" a "rough" translation can be. Nevertheless, I will concede it is a translation, in that it is an English attempt, albeit a poor one, to describe the same thing.

I apologize for sounding rude. There are reasons so many of us who use Japanese do not contribute, but the authority vacuum it creates can lead to trouble.


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## Badgertooth (Jan 2, 2017)

Smashmasta said:


> This wide bevel is a characteristic of single bevel knives - Kataba or Kataha, vs double bevels - Ryoba.




There are also significant double bevel styles which are ground with a higher wider bevel which is what most folk round here would understand as wide bevel. It serves as a handy differentiator from those ground with smaller bevels. That distinction doesn't need to be made with single bevel because it's implicit.




Smashmasta said:


> the harder the stone, the greater the polish.



... In that this generally correlate with fineness - sure. But there is a more complex interplay of other attributes such as fineness, cutting speed and the ease with which little abrasive chunkies are released which determines suitability for polishing. I gave away an Ozuku which was destroying finishes i'd hoped it would polish simply because it was too hard and tugged at cladding and I now know behaved fairly typically of Ozuku asagis. I'd steer well clear of Ozuku and other known hard stones favoured by the razor and tool crowd. They could well be a jarring immersion into the world of polishing. The skating, tugging and faceting can be deeply frustrating. I know you lucked out with a knife-suitable wakasa but I think it'd take tremendous luck for The Captain to obtain a similar one.

As it's the captain's first polishing stone, I'd be inclined to recommend a softer stone. As we're in the realm of aesthetics here and not the pure function of a cutting edge I'd want to recommend something that is pleasurable and meditative to use and can far more easily provide a consistent finish on account of the cushion of mud it provides even if it foregoes outright shine. Hakka, Hideriyama and softer Aiiwatani would all do just fine


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## aboynamedsuita (Jan 2, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> I gave away an Ozuku which was destroying finishes i'd hoped it would polish simply because it was too hard and tugged at cladding and I now know behaved fairly typically of Ozuku asagis. I'd steer well clear of Ozuku and other known hard stones favoured by the razor and tool crowd. They could well be a jarring immersion into the world of polishing. The skating, tugging and faceting can be deeply frustrating.



Do you think eliminating the soft cladding would help mitigate the problem? I plan to try out an Ozuku Asagi with koma nagura on blue2 honyaki my thoughts are since there is no soft cladding it may be okay if used with lighter pressure and slurry buffer


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## Badgertooth (Jan 2, 2017)

tjangula said:


> Do you think eliminating the soft cladding would help mitigate the problem? I plan to try out an Ozuku Asagi with koma nagura on blue2 honyaki my thoughts are since there is no soft cladding it may be okay if used with lighter pressure and slurry buffer



Only one way to find out! 

I'm afraid I have no experience with honyaki so couldn't offer any insight in that regard


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## Smashmasta (Jan 2, 2017)

XooMG said:


> Basic Japanese literacy explains why accurate translation is avoided: it causes ambiguity in English.
> 
> I guess I just disagree over how "rough" a "rough" translation can be. Nevertheless, I will concede it is a translation, in that it is an English attempt, albeit a poor one, to describe the same thing.
> 
> I apologize for sounding rude. There are reasons so many of us who use Japanese do not contribute, but the authority vacuum it creates can lead to trouble.



No worries. Sorry if I came off rough myself - I just moved and have been pulling some late nights hauling things back and forth.

Although I don't speak Japanese, I totally agree with you from what I've read and heard that Japanese is one of those (very) difficult languages to translate, especially with the Kanji having so many different meanings for one symbol and being so contextually based. That being said, some translations become established over time in their respective contexts and become the norm, even if the translation isn't perfect, and this is one of those cases.

Like I said, we all want to be using and saying the right words, so please feel free to tweak something you see that doesn't quite make sense. But thanks for elaborating on what you meant; the Japanese - English translations is something we should all be aware and a bit weary about, you're totally right. Thanks! :biggrin:


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## Smashmasta (Jan 2, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> There are also significant double bevel styles which are ground with a higher wider bevel which is what most folk round here would understand as wide bevel. It serves as a handy differentiator from those ground with smaller bevels. That distinction doesn't need to be made with single bevel because it's implicit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha, don't forget that I said 'generally' or typically in most of my statements (a little lesson I learned in a law class in college - covers one's behind a bit by avoiding explicitness and including hazy general-ness, haha). 

As the Captain (I think) insinuated - she's looking to polish just the edge bevel on ryoba blades and not messing with any cladding, but I certainly could be wrong. If this is the case, then I standby my suggestions, but you're right, I could have listed some more approachable stones that could be safer to use if she does happen to come into contact with some cladding more explicitly than group them altogether, so your clarification is a good one.


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## foody518 (Jan 2, 2017)

Smashmasta said:


> As the Captain (I think) insinuated - she's looking to polish just the edge bevel on ryoba blades and not messing with any cladding, but I certainly could be wrong.



This is what I was trying to figure out as well. For that purpose, something like a Naniwa Snow White or Fuji 8k or a Sigma Power 6k will do a pretty decent job for not too much $$ if it is preceded by a medium fine stone. I have a 4k stone that is pretty shiny too, such that a natural that gets you a similar shine is much harder and finer and very possibly a fair bit pricier


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## Smashmasta (Jan 2, 2017)

tjangula said:


> Do you think eliminating the soft cladding would help mitigate the problem? I plan to try out an Ozuku Asagi with koma nagura on blue2 honyaki my thoughts are since there is no soft cladding it may be okay if used with lighter pressure and slurry buffer



Like Badger, I don't have any Honyaki (yet), but since it can be considered all hagane, it should likely make things more straight forward. Is it a wide bevel you're after, or just the edge? Are you committed to using the Oozuku as your awesado? As Badger mentioned, maybe using something like a Hideriyama instead at first will give you a bit more safety in this attempt, and then you could work your way up to something harder.


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## Smashmasta (Jan 2, 2017)

foody518 said:


> This is what I was trying to figure out as well. For that purpose, something like a Naniwa Snow White or Fuji 8k or a Sigma Power 6k will do a pretty decent job for not too much $$ if it is preceded by a medium fine stone. I have a 4k stone that is pretty shiny too, such that a natural that gets you a similar shine is much harder and finer and very possibly a fair bit pricier



I think she's after naturals (she's a self proclaimed addict at this point, haha), but you're right, maybe starting with a synthetic with clearly defined grit could be of assistance in painting a picture of what grits start yielding certain polishing affects, and then try and find naturals with roughly corresponding grit values, etc. But I think she's already at that point.


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## chinacats (Jan 2, 2017)

Smashmasta said:


> Like Badger, I don't have any Honyaki (yet), but since it can be considered all hagane, it should likely make things more straight forward. Is it a wide bevel you're after, or just the edge? Are you committed to using the Oozuku as your awesado? As Badger mentioned, maybe using something like a Hideriyama instead at first will give you a bit more safety in this attempt, and then you could work your way up to something harder.



I've never seen a wide bevel honyaki. For honyaki polishing (faces) I believe it's best for either fingerstones, sandpaper/micromesh or maybe powders/slurries. Stones will really accentuate any high/low spots.


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## Smashmasta (Jan 2, 2017)

Honyaki blades can come in all sorts, although are most commonly found in yanagi-bas likely due to their intended use of low impact/soft protein work. A good deal of reputable smiths make them. Carter, Toyama, several on JCK, a bunch on JCKTG, JKI, Korin, Watanabe takes custom blade types in Honyaki, etc, etc.

But I would agree with you that it would be 'safest' and easier to use finger stones or the like. Plus, kyomen finishes are really done by machines, ie, buffing wheels. Perhaps tj wants to practice using a whole stone regardless.


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## chinacats (Jan 2, 2017)

All sorts maybe but I've yet to see a wide bevel. As to most reputable smiths making them, that's just wrong. The honyaki I owned didn't get polished


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## TheCaptain (Jan 2, 2017)

Pictures of sample knife. Top picture shows the edge which I got nice and shiny on a thuringian slurry stone. The second picture shows the side of the edge I haven't polished yet. The bevel is making me stabby - it's needs a nicer hazy polish (kasumi?)

The cladding is very rough and I know that's intentional. One day I'd like to take one of these to a mirror finish or is that just ruining the knife?


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## Smashmasta (Jan 2, 2017)

chinacats said:


> All sorts maybe but I've yet to see a wide bevel. As to most reputable smiths making them, that's just wrong. The honyaki I owned didn't get polished



Not trying to sound aggressive, but please see above post with 5 links, and some more here (some brands are more 'reputable' than others): Masamoto, Mizuno, Konosuke wide bevel gyuto, Yoshikazu Ikeda, Jikko, Hide, Sukenari, Mamiya, Kumagoro, Nenohi,
Aritsugu, Tesshu, Yoshikane, Genkai, Tatsuo Ikeda, Sakai Takayuki (Aoki Hamono), etc.

And those are just 'larger'/established Japanese brands - individual custom makers who have more time/care for a single knife tend to have honyaki blades in wide bevel format. It may take some shopping around online, but they're certainly out there; and although most of those links only have one example as demonstration, if they have one type of honyaki wide bevel, they typically have a few others as well. Perhaps I could have said, "some brands/smiths have a few examples of wide bevel honyaki knives," to be a bit more clear, sorry


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## TheCaptain (Jan 2, 2017)

So the more I experiment the more I want to try something new. 

While I don't see myself using a single bevel knife I could see trying to take a KU finish to a mirror polish sometime in the future. Not sure if that's a good idea or not but it seems like it would be an interesting exercise. That would be done with various grits of sandpaper.

As far as the bevel and the edge, I like my knives to look polished. There's been some postings of the harmon difference between the two (do I have that right?) and that's something I'd like to be able to accentuate more when I get some skill. 

At least two folks recommended Aiwatani and Hakka. I already have one of the first stones on order but can't seem to source any Hakka or Hideriyama stones (except for one large one on JNS). Source suggestions would be appreciated.


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## foody518 (Jan 2, 2017)

I think part of the confusion is that since this thread was started specifying usage on double bevel knives whether there are wide bevel honyaki double bevels. Like Badger said above, wide bevel is effectively implicit when talking about single bevel knives


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## chinacats (Jan 2, 2017)

Some would have been correct but you initially said most which is just plain wrong...most don't want to mess with the headache of lost material/time, those that do charge accordingly. And not that it hasn't been done but wide bevel honyaki just doesn't really make sense.


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## K813zra (Jan 2, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> So the more I experiment the more I want to try something new.
> 
> While I don't see myself using a single bevel knife I could see trying to take a KU finish to a mirror polish sometime in the future. Not sure if that's a good idea or not but it seems like it would be an interesting exercise. That would be done with various grits of sandpaper.
> 
> ...



I don't know where you can find a Hakka but you can get Hideriyama from Japanese Knife Imports or Aframes Tokyo.


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## Badgertooth (Jan 2, 2017)

Smashmasta said:


> Not trying to sound aggressive, but please see above post with 5 links, and some more here (some brands are more 'reputable' than others): Masamoto, Mizuno, Konosuke wide bevel gyuto, Yoshikazu Ikeda, Jikko, Hide, Sukenari, Mamiya, Kumagoro, Nenohi,
> Aritsugu, Tesshu, Yoshikane, Genkai, Tatsuo Ikeda, Sakai Takayuki (Aoki Hamono), etc.
> 
> And those are just 'larger'/established Japanese brands - individual custom makers who have more time/care for a single knife tend to have honyaki blades in wide bevel format. It may take some shopping around online, but they're certainly out there; and although most of those links only have one example as demonstration, if they have one type of honyaki wide bevel, they typically have a few others as well. Perhaps I could have said, "some brands/smiths have a few examples of wide bevel honyaki knives," to be a bit more clear, sorry



It's my birthday and I'm trying not to get wound up but are we really going to have to preface every instance of "wide-bevel" with "wide-bevel, double-bevel" in order not to be corrected. Thank you for the thorough linking (though Tamamoku V2 is an intricately processed interplay of soft and hard iron). And possibly I have CC's statement about wide bevel honyaki completely wrong, which I completely accept if I am, but it's really only the Konosuke B2 gyuto which holds water in this context.

Sorry Captain let's get back on topic.


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## chinacats (Jan 2, 2017)

Badger, again not saying it doesn't exist, just that it doesn't make sense to me. Can you link me a pic of that konosuke wb honyaki? 

As to V2, it makes for a very nice honyaki blade though I only recall one maker using it.


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## Badgertooth (Jan 2, 2017)

chinacats said:


> Badger, again not saying it doesn't exist, just that it doesn't make sense to me. Can you link me a pic of that konosuke wb honyaki?
> 
> As to V2, it makes for a very nice honyaki blade though I only recall one maker using it.



And I agree completely that it doesn't make much sense which is why the Konosuke sorta stands out as a bit of an exception. PM to follow


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## labor of love (Jan 2, 2017)

Would someone please just tell me whether or not jki synth nat finisher is a good stone for polishing blade and finisher?


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## TheCaptain (Jan 2, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> It's my birthday and I'm trying ...
> 
> Sorry Captain let's get back on topic.




1. Happy birthday!

2. It's not a party until the thread goes off the rails. It's all good.

3. As usual I'm learning stuff


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## aboynamedsuita (Jan 2, 2017)

chinacats said:


> Thanks, both handles are done by Mikey. Kochi is in blue dyed maple with black oak ferrule/buttcap, Watanabe is redwood with same combination of black oak. Both handles are built to the same spec...there's a third in the set as well.
> 
> Where/how is Mikey, long time no see:scratchhead:?
> 
> Sorry for more detour...back to polishing stones



I'm also wondering he and I are overdue for an email. 





tjangula said:


> Do you think eliminating the soft cladding would help mitigate the problem? I plan to try out an Ozuku Asagi with koma nagura on blue2 honyaki my thoughts are since there is no soft cladding it may be okay if used with lighter pressure and slurry buffer





Badgertooth said:


> Only one way to find out!
> 
> I'm afraid I have no experience with honyaki so couldn't offer any insight in that regard





Smashmasta said:


> Like Badger, I don't have any Honyaki (yet), but since it can be considered all hagane, it should likely make things more straight forward. Is it a wide bevel you're after, or just the edge? Are you committed to using the Oozuku as your awesado? As Badger mentioned, maybe using something like a Hideriyama instead at first will give you a bit more safety in this attempt, and then you could work your way up to something harder.



The all hagane is what made me think it'd be viable. I have four honyaki knives, three double bevel and one single bevel 330 kensaki yanagi (not pictured, still fitting it to the K&S handle)





Since it's purportedly very hard and fine, my plan was to try it as a finisher for SB, or for the back side. I have plenty of other jnats I can use that are slightly softer and a bit less fine such as Ao renge Suita, aka suminagashi renge Suita, okudo momiji Suita, Shinden Suita koppa, nakayama kiita













I just need the time to use them holidays did not go as planned and I'm still lapping the cashew lacquer off the stones I didn't mask the surface on :doublebanghead:

And happy BD Badgertooth!


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## Nemo (Jan 2, 2017)

Happy Birthday, Badger!

And thanks everyone for the informative discussion. I'm also learning a lot.


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## tgfencer (Jan 2, 2017)

Beautiful stones, love that ao renge suita from watanabe.


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## foody518 (Jan 2, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> So the more I experiment the more I want to try something new.
> 
> While I don't see myself using a single bevel knife I could see trying to take a KU finish to a mirror polish sometime in the future. Not sure if that's a good idea or not but it seems like it would be an interesting exercise. That would be done with various grits of sandpaper.
> 
> ...



If you polish off the KU then it will be gone and look like a non-KU knife taken to whatever level of finish you take it to.

If you want the whole blade to be shiny, sandpaper and micromesh and other such abrasives are better at doing that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamon_(swordsmithing) it comes out of differential hardening on monosteel knives.
What I think you're aiming for is the contrast at the lamination line of clad knives. With some naturals and some muddier synths, the same stone can cloudy up the cladding while shiny-ing up the core steel. That said, are you looking for a stone to go more shiny and mirrored on the core steel polish, or darker and more cloudy on the cladding? I can get one of my 4-8k synthetic stones to deliver a darker mirror polish to the core steel than most of my naturals (mostly knife-friendly no super hard ones), which tend to finish hazy or frosted mirror on the hagane.


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## chinacats (Jan 2, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> And I agree completely that it doesn't make much sense which is why the Konosuke sorta stands out as a bit of an exception. PM to follow




Thanks! And now that I've seen it, I'm even more confused...

And of course, Happy Birthday!


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## Badgertooth (Jan 2, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> 1. Happy birthday!
> 
> 2. It's not a party until the thread goes off the rails. It's all good.
> 
> 3. As usual I'm learning stuff



Thanks! And back on track...

If it's outright shine you're after, you can take it right up with synths and maybe come over the top of that with a piece of good ol' Nakayama. Leaves a brilliant and shiny finish on both core and cladding. (And a batshit edge)





If you want to delve into the world of kasumi finishes and want that classic gradation from spine to edge of black, misty gray, silver then there's some nice ways to get there. This would be a particularly buzzy, mellow way to do it and achieve great contrast

King 800
JKI jinzo aoto/JNS Red Aoto Matukusuyama
Hakka/hideriyama/Mizukihara
Uchigumori


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## labor of love (Jan 2, 2017)

Badger, could you possibly compare king 800, jki jinzo and red aoto? I already own the king 800 but I'm
Curious how the others compare, or if it's even much of an improvement in finish.


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## Badgertooth (Jan 2, 2017)

I will do when I have it in hand as I treated myself to the 15% offer at JNS (and a munetoshi petty to save my Watanabe from oversharpening). I usually step to Aoto, Monzento or Aizu after the King and then the softer pre-finishers I mentioned in the post but that's not something everyone has lying around. So my aim is to have a synth progression that cosmetically mimics it that goes 
King 800 > JNS red Aoto > Takenoko 
Before finishing with a jnat. That could be a great setup for people looking to dabble or pragmatically achieve great finishes and still get use from a jnat at the end if they're feeling fancy.


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## labor of love (Jan 2, 2017)

Gracias. I know so little about polishing, I just use king 800 and call it a day. I had no idea takenoko could be used as a blade polisher! Thank you!


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## Badgertooth (Jan 2, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Gracias. I know so little about polishing, I just use king 800 and call it a day. I had no idea takenoko could be used as a blade polisher! Thank you!



King 800 leaves one of my favourite finishes. I often leave it there if I'm not going full progression. Super easy, tonnes of contrast and super consistent scratch pattern.


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## foody518 (Jan 2, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> If you want to delve into the world of kasumi finishes and want that classic gradation from spine to edge of black, misty gray, silver then there's some nice ways to get there. This would be a particularly buzzy, mellow way to do it and achieve great contrast
> 
> King 800
> JKI jinzo aoto/JNS Red Aoto Matukusuyama
> ...



For the kasumi finish - is the goal for the hagane to be very reflective dark mirror polish, or more of a bright silvery/frosty mirror? Or, either is applicable/situationally desirable?


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## XooMG (Jan 2, 2017)

foody518 said:


> For the kasumi finish - is the goal for the hagane to be very reflective dark mirror polish, or more of a bright silvery/frosty mirror?


The goal is whatever you like. Darker finishes will be less smooth in general, but some people like the contrast. I tend to lean towards a light fog with less drag.


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## nutmeg (Jan 2, 2017)

Turning a KU to a mirror finish, I didi it once and promised to never do it again!
It is really a lot of time, work, sandpapers...
You could try first starting from a kasumi finish.

Also on an other thread but this is the ex-KU spoon
https://s16.postimg.org/u4dc7wbth/IMG_0980.jpg
then turned into uchigumori finish
https://s30.postimg.org/dp72663kx/IMG_1239.jpg
https://s24.postimg.org/srxfhhb7p/IMG_1232.jpg


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## Krassi (Jan 2, 2017)

Hiho and happy b-day Badger! 

i find it interesting that my different stones also tend to make more contrast or hazy finish.
it s crazy that even the 800grit orange Thai stone already gives an instant "Contrast on" finish.

But turning a KU into a mirror is "the godfather of pain in the ass"
i did this with a Shiro Kamo Nakiri and you will find out very fast that Benchstones dondt work as you wish, because the knifes are never really flat and you have some spots that are lower and wont polish unless you flatten the knife to death like i did.. also then you will find out that a mirror will give you the worst possible food release.. its a black hole like food sucking surface that sucks 
So i prefer 220# Sponge stripe finish and Jnatslurry polishing on the sides of the knife.


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## labor of love (Jan 2, 2017)

Would it be practical to just jump from king 800 to takenoko? I'm prob not dedicated enough quite yet to use 3 or more stones just for polishing, but something after king would be nice.


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## nutmeg (Jan 2, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Hiho and happy b-day Badger!
> 
> But turning a KU into a mirror is "the godfather of pain in the ass"



:thumbsup:


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## Smashmasta (Jan 2, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Would someone please just tell me whether or not jki synth nat finisher is a good stone for polishing blade and finisher?



It has some polishing effects, but is definitely a friggin fantastic finisher. I don't have all of JKIs synthetic line, but everything I have is outstanding. No offense to Maxim, of which I have the full line of and certainly enjoy, but I largely prefer the the JKI stones.

Re: polishing, it's a complicated function, which this thread is doing a good job sussing out. There's the hardness and fineness factor for sure, but there's also the uniformity factor, and the main reason the JKI synth nat is only ok at polishing as it's a mix of grits. For polishing, it's important to have all the scratch marks as close in depth/width as possible so light bounces off of the patterns at the same 'rate'; scratch patterns of different depths and widths will not reflect light as equally. This can be visualized on the difference of hazy vs shinier contrast when polishing bevels - the softer jigane gets scratched deeper than the harder hagane, and thus 'absorbs/scatters' light at different rates vs the shinier flatter surface of the harder hagane. Make sense? 

So while the JKI synth nat is one of my favorite of the bunch, since it's like 3-6K or something, the variation in scratch depths and widths make for a generally uniniform scratch pattern in terms of polish, but a wicked edge.

Also, Happy Birthday, Badger! :joec:


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## foody518 (Jan 2, 2017)

XooMG said:


> The goal is whatever you like. Darker finishes will be less smooth in general, but some people like the contrast. I tend to lean towards a light fog with less drag.



Thanks for the response, and GORGEOUS pics


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## Badgertooth (Jan 3, 2017)

XooMG said:


> The goal is whatever you like.


100% this.


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## foody518 (Jan 3, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Would it be practical to just jump from king 800 to takenoko? I'm prob not dedicated enough quite yet to use 3 or more stones just for polishing, but something after king would be nice.



If you have a Rika 5k, it can get something like this after a 1-1.2k stone 
https://goo.gl/photos/Vrmf8vG1TjsPnhTZ8


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