# Vine Wood WIP



## cotedupy (Dec 14, 2020)

So I found these at a friend's house at the weekend (he's a winemaker and uses them for firewood). They're 60 year old Syrah (Shiraz) vines that have been pulled up for re-planting, either with other varieties or with more Syrah because the old vines aren't producing enough fruit any more. Apparently the wood is quite nice; very twisted/knotty and lots of eyes as you can see:












They're well cured but obviously not stabilized. Still I thought I'd have a play and see what they looked like. The trunk wood is much denser than I expected, and interestingly coloured. Tho this picture possibly exaggerates it, as I think some bits had been burned by the belt sander:






I carved it out and did a resin fill. TBH I'd quite like to do a clear fill that kept the colour of the wood, but the epoxy I have isn't crystal clear. So I went with a two part blue and aquamarine fill, as the initial experiment:


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## cotedupy (Dec 14, 2020)

And here's how it came out today. Quite cool I think . We'll see how it goes with warping or cracking, this might be the final push I need to set myself up to for stabilizing things!

Anybody else have any experience or tips for working with vine wood...?


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## cotedupy (Dec 15, 2020)

And today trying with a clear, neutral fill (still Araldite 5 min). The faults I didn't carve out too much, which has left most of them very dark looking, tho the epoxy is colourless. Think I prefer this over the coloured version...


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## juice (Dec 15, 2020)

cotedupy said:


> So I went with a two part blue and aquamarine fill


No way! You used blue?

Looks great.


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## Dhoff (Dec 15, 2020)

cotedupy said:


> And today trying with a clear, neutral fill (still Araldite 5 min). The faults I didn't carve out too much, which has left most of them very dark looking, tho the epoxy is colourless. Think I prefer this over the coloured version...
> 
> View attachment 106467
> 
> ...



I agree, this one looks very sleek, elegant and nice  

The other one is also nice, but this one is a ringer.


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## cotedupy (Dec 15, 2020)

juice said:


> No way! You used blue?
> 
> Looks great.



Are there other colours...?


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## cotedupy (Dec 15, 2020)

Dhoff said:


> I agree, this one looks very sleek, elegant and nice
> 
> The other one is also nice, but this one is a ringer.



Ta! Yeah I was really pleased with how that second one came out. Just need to wait a bit now and see how stable the wood is...


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## Geigs (Dec 15, 2020)

they look great, but it makes me super sad that old vine shiraz was ripped out for any reason at all, the drop in production means way better wines.


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## cotedupy (Jan 18, 2021)

Geigs said:


> they look great, but it makes me super sad that old vine shiraz was ripped out for any reason at all, the drop in production means way better wines.



As an interesting postscript to this - I was making a handle from the wood the other day and noticed that the pattern and colouration to me looked a lot like spalting...











And sure enough when I asked my friend who I got them from he said the vineyard had been taken up because of Eutypa, or Dead Arm, which is a fungal disease that affects and kills a certain portion of the vine. You might for instance get one dead arm, while the other is alive. Though it is insidious, and will eventually kill the entire vine. The colour differences here then are between darker dead wood and lighter living wood... We have spalted vine wood! And the Syrah wasn't grubbed up for no reason


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## cotedupy (Jan 18, 2021)

I've now made quite a few handles from this, it's remarkable looking wood, and fairly unique. The combination of eutypa and the natural twisted nature of the vine creates something fairly special...


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## Geigs (Jan 18, 2021)

Those handles look awesome. And glad to hear that the old vines weren't sacrificed needlessly! Dead arm is something I know about only through D'Arenberg's shiraz of the same name, I pray this disease doesn't spread!


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## juice (Jan 19, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> fairly unique


No no no no no. "Unique" is binary - things are either unique or they're not. If they're not, I guess they're some sort of rare, although probably not medium-rare


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## cotedupy (Jan 19, 2021)

juice said:


> No no no no no. "Unique" is binary - things are either unique or they're not. If they're not, I guess they're some sort of rare, although probably not medium-rare



Ha! I need to dig out my old style guide clearly...


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## cotedupy (Jan 19, 2021)

Geigs said:


> Those handles look awesome. And glad to hear that the old vines weren't sacrificed needlessly! Dead arm is something I know about only through D'Arenberg's shiraz of the same name, I pray this disease doesn't spread!



Cheers! It is really interesting stuff 

It's not something I've come across much before either, other than the background story of the D'Arenberg cuvee. I think the disease is much more prevalent in South Austalia than it is in Europe.

(You also in SA?)


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## Dhoff (Jan 19, 2021)

Now I want one of your handles :*(

Why is australia so freaking far away from everything


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## cotedupy (Jan 19, 2021)

Dhoff said:


> Now I want one of your handles :*(
> 
> Why is australia so freaking far away from everything



 I do have some friends in Copenhagen, so I'll give ya a shout if ever I'm sending anything over to them!


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## gregfisk (Jan 19, 2021)

I think it’s great that you’re trying out different wood(s) for handle materials. These look great and I would guess very unique as far as handles go. Don’t listen to juice, he’s a communist.


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## juice (Jan 19, 2021)

gregfisk said:


> Don’t listen to juice, he’s a communist.


Sure, but so is Cotedupy now he lives here


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## gregfisk (Jan 19, 2021)

Well, I spent a few weeks in Victoria  and now I’m a big fan.


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## gregfisk (Jan 19, 2021)

So, did that handle come front the center of that big piece of knot you posted a picture of?


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## juice (Jan 19, 2021)

gregfisk said:


> Well, I spent a few weeks in Victoria  and now I’m a big fan.


Did you become a communist? (We moved on the weekend to central Victoria, and I do like this living in the outback thing


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## cotedupy (Jan 19, 2021)

gregfisk said:


> So, did that handle come front the center of that big piece of knot you posted a picture of?



Good q... no. I haven't tried that bit yet, but I'm fairly sure it wouldn't work. The best, densest, wood comes from the trunk before the arms split into a v-shape and gets trained off. I have made a couple from arm wood, but they're rarely straight enough to get particularly long bits, and it's less dense, though the wood looks the same. I've used it for a couple of pettys. In the last picture above the bunka is trunk wood and the petty is from the arm.


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## gregfisk (Jan 19, 2021)

juice said:


> Did you become a communist? (We moved on the weekend to central Victoria, and I do like this living in the outback thing



perhaps I did. We stayed in Brighton Beach across the street from the water by the Brighton beach houses. So amazing! If that’s communist living I’m all in. Loved the town with the butcher and the baker down the street from each other and the people were so friendly. They kept asking if we were from the States or Canada. I live in Seattle so just a few hours from the Canadian border. I guess we sound similar.

Sorry cotedupy for getting so OT.


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## gregfisk (Jan 19, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Good q... no. I haven't tried that bit yet, but I'm fairly sure it wouldn't work. The best, densest, wood comes from the trunk before the arms split into a v-shape and gets trained off. I have made a couple from arm wood, but they're rarely straight enough to get particularly long bits, and it's less, though the wood looks the same. I've used it for a couple of pettys. In the last picture above the bunka is trunk wood and the petty is from the arm.



I’m really interested in trying different woods and doing epoxy fillers if needed. It seems like root wood could be interesting if you can get larger pieces to work with.


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## juice (Jan 19, 2021)

gregfisk said:


> perhaps I did. We stayed in Brighton Beach across the street from the water by the Brighton beach houses. So amazing! If that’s communist living I’m all in


Ah, the flash end of town, eh!



gregfisk said:


> They kept asking if we were from the States or Canada. I live in Seattle so just a few hours from the Canadian border. I guess we sound similar.


People down here are likely to think someone from Tennersee or Georgah could be from either...

Maybe even Bawstahn.



gregfisk said:


> Sorry cotedupy for getting so OT.


He's a communist now, he's not about efficiency or rule-following.


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## cotedupy (Jan 19, 2021)

gregfisk said:


> I’m really interested in trying different woods and doing epoxy fillers if needed. It seems like root wood could be interesting if you can get larger pieces to work with.



Yeah I've thought that. Occasionally you see large trees round here that have fallen, or been blown, over if the ground beneath them has given way. And they tend just to stay there until I assume someone decides to come along and grab them for firewood. I'm slightly tempted to keep a chainsaw in the boot of the car to rescue some in such a situation... Though I fear it would go down like a cup of cold sick with the wife


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## cotedupy (Jan 30, 2021)

[Apologies for shoddy night pics. I will update when I've put it on something.]

Today I created a world-first 'Full Moon Mt Fuji' spalted vine wood knife handle. Which will doubtless become incredibly highly sought after, and worth more than its weight in gold / saffron / cocaine.

I noticed that quite a few of the pieces I've used have this kind of feature; a small knot that needs carving and filling, and below it - a wavy line of the grain that also does:






'Aha!' I said. 'This reminds me quite precisely of the moon rising over Mt. Fuji. And will surely bring me respect, adoration, and untold riches.'

So I filled it with coloured epoxy, as is my wont:






Came out alright, it's a bit tricky to get an impression of the colour at night but here we go:











The other side is darker, and has no colour:






It actually looks loads nicer than these pictures suggest  Now to find something to put it on...


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## gregfisk (Jan 30, 2021)

I see what you’re going for, the handle looks great. What do you use for a finish?


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## cotedupy (Jan 30, 2021)

gregfisk said:


> I see what you’re going for, the handle looks great. What do you use for a finish?



My usual process is the following, I don't really know why I do it like this apart from that it works for me, especially on wood like this that is completely dry, but not stabilized so not the densest...

I apply mineral oil after the initial shaping which I do on a belt sander to 80 or 120 grit, then hand sanding up to 400. Then I apply something called Evolution Hardwax Oil Classic. I like this stuff a lot - you can control the finish level by either; leaving it to dry completely, or rubbing in / buffing when partially dried. Once it's dry I then sand again from 400 to anywhere between 800 - 2000 depending on the handle. And then apply another 2 or 3 coats of hardwax oil to finish.

Seems to work


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## inferno (Jan 31, 2021)

hey man. you should look into "tung oil", i use pure tung oil from liberon. its a hardening oil. 
you need to dilute it to 50% with either acetone or white spirit/paint naphta the first few rounds. then you can put 3 coats of pure oil on there. it will last for years. wait 24h between applications.

you want to dilute it the first rounds so it sucks in deep in the wood. then after the solvents have evaporated the oil hardens and polymerizes, stabilizing the wood and turns it waterproof. 

tung oil is similar to linseed oil but it wont turn yellow. 

i however have found a cheaper diluted oil (60%) that i simply dunk handles in for a few h. then let dry 1-2 days. then start applying 100% oil coats to for 3 days. i have handles that are 5-6 years old and they still look like new. tung oil is the ****!

danish oil/gun stock oil/furniture oil is usually diluted tung oil. but its better to simply get the pure stuff from the start imo. because with the diluted stuff you never get 100% oil that you want for the top coats.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 31, 2021)

inferno said:


> hey man. you should look into "tung oil", i use pure tung oil from liberon. its a hardening oil.
> you need to dilute it to 50% with either acetone or white spirit/paint naphta the first few rounds. then you can put 3 coats of pure oil on there. it will last for years. wait 24h between applications.
> 
> you want to dilute it the first rounds so it sucks in deep in the wood. then after the solvents have evaporated the oil hardens and polymerizes, stabilizing the wood and turns it waterproof.
> ...



Agreed! I am a Tung oil evangelist. 

I feel it is worth adding... it is food safe ONLY if you use pure Tung oil. 'Tung oil' that you buy at hardware stores (Bunnings ) will likely have really, really nasty drying agents in them. Same goes for linseed oil. I am not claiming these are bad products - they are just not intended for food contact.

In NSW these guys deliver in reasonable time frames (I believe they are wing of The Wood Works). As per their recommendation, I dilute the tung oil with citric turpene (also food safe) - the smell.... the smell! Beautiful!

Highly recommended.


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## Luftmensch (Jan 31, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> This reminds me quite precisely



Hey @juice... how does "quite precisely" resonate with your style guide?


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## cotedupy (Jan 31, 2021)

inferno said:


> hey man. you should look into "tung oil", i use pure tung oil from liberon. its a hardening oil.
> you need to dilute it to 50% with either acetone or white spirit/paint naphta the first few rounds. then you can put 3 coats of pure oil on there. it will last for years. wait 24h between applications.
> 
> you want to dilute it the first rounds so it sucks in deep in the wood. then after the solvents have evaporated the oil hardens and polymerizes, stabilizing the wood and turns it waterproof.
> ...



Ta for the reminder! I've was meaning to get some for a while, but keep forgetting... I've used it a couple of times before when I nabbed a bit from a friend, and yeah - really liked it, tho I hadn't thought about letting it soak in to harden. It's kinda my thinking with the oil and hardwax applications early, as well as for finishing, so glad my random hunch is actually a thing! The hardwax oil I used I think has a lot of Tung oil in it, but is quite thick, so won't penetrate as deeply.

Will pick some soon, that soaking when diluted sounds ideal for a lot of the wood I use


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## cotedupy (Jan 31, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Agreed! I am a Tung oil evangelist.
> 
> I feel it is worth adding... it is food safe ONLY if you use pure Tung oil. 'Tung oil' that you buy at hardware stores (Bunnings ) will likely have really, really nasty drying agents in them. Same goes for linseed oil. I am not claiming these are bad products - they are just not intended for food contact.
> 
> ...



Actually sorry - now that you mention Bunnings and citric turpene - I _have_ bought tung oil a couple of times before. I believe this stuff is mostly, or completely Tung oil, diluted with citric turpene... https://www.bunnings.com.au/feast-watson-250ml-kitchen-timber-oil_p1520221

It was very good. And yeah... the smell is ace!


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## juice (Jan 31, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Hey @juice... how does "quite precisely" resonate with your style guide?


It's better than "fairly unique"


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## Luftmensch (Jan 31, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Actually sorry - now that you mention Bunnings and citric turpene - I _have_ bought tung oil a couple of times before. I believe this stuff is mostly, or completely Tung oil, diluted with citric turpene... https://www.bunnings.com.au/feast-watson-250ml-kitchen-timber-oil_p1520221
> 
> It was very good. And yeah... the smell is ace!



You could checkout the MSDS for more information - I am mediocre at reading them.

I err on the side of paranoid for things near food. Once handles are dry, it probably doesnt matter what product was used (aka Feast Watson shouldnt be a worry). For a food preparation surface (e.g. cutting board)... I would stick to 100% pure tung oil - (assuming those products can be taken at face value).


Edit:

The marketing brief says:



> With a clear, natural Tung oil, Kitchen Timber Oil is perfectly designed to nourish and protect your kitchen benches, cutting boards, salad bowls and all interior timber against water and spill damage.



Unless they are being naughty, that would mean the product is rated for contact with food once dry. Looking through the MSDS, they don't say how much Tung oil is in there. The listed composition is: Naphtha 30-60%, Turpentine 1-10%, d-Limonene 1-10%. The remaining is 20-68% could be Tung, wouldn't be surprised if it were closer to the 20% side


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## gregfisk (Jan 31, 2021)

Pretty much none of the products you buy off the shelf actually have tung oil in them. It’s just marketing to confuse people. They are all basically wiping varnishes. Pure tung oil will say pure tung oil on the label, the rest of the products are varnish or a varnish oil blend. They don’t even have tung oil in them. Pure tung oil takes days to dry unlike wiping varnish. Some common wiping varnish brands are Watco danish oil, Formsby’s tung oil, General finishes arm r seal, Minwax tung oil finish and pretty much every brand you see on the hardware store shelves. I’ve been using a varnish oil blend from Minwax but I’m going to try General Finishes arm R seal next which is a varnish finish. My understanding is you can put them on thicker and they dry faster. It seems like everyone has there favorite combination that works for them. I personally put on 6 or 7 coats of Minwax tung oil, sand that down with 200 grit sandpaper until smooth then wipe on one more light coat. Then I hand apply Minwax paste wax in a thick fashion and heat it until it melts with a heat gun. Wipe it off with a soft rag and it’s done. Heating the wax makes it grippy so the handle doesn’t slip in your hand. I really like the feel of it. This process gives me a high gloss finish. If you want a less shiny finish you can either wipe it off at each coat or don’t do as many coats in the first place.


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## juice (Jan 31, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Unless they are being naughty


Which is the default behaviour for corporations, especially in countries that have extremely lax laws around this sort of thing (possibly due to a recent president doing favours for people who he thinks can do him favours at some point...)


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## Luftmensch (Jan 31, 2021)

juice said:


> Which is the default behaviour for corporations, especially in countries that have extremely lax laws around this sort of thing (possibly due to a recent president doing favours for people who he thinks can do him favours at some point...)



Definitely... I have used hardware store danish oil and linseed oil on various woodwork projects. No problems.

I wanted to seal a huon pine board for use in the kitchen. I was going to make it a cutting board but the grain is nice, i couldnt bring myself to use it. It is more charcuterie board now. I spent a long time reading about wood sealing products rated for food contact. My conclusion was that i didn't have full confidence in the lack of information surrounding the products that hardware stores commonly stock.

In the end, 100% tung oil thinned with citric turpene and rubbed down with bees wax rose to the top of my list for food-safe options. Of course... you have to assume those products are being sold honestly! But at least you know what the ingredients are...




gregfisk said:


> Pure tung oil takes days to dry unlike wiping varnish.



Yup! To anyone who is interested, I would say this is the main downside. Apply a coat... wait two days for it to dry... Apply another coat... and so on. It is time intensive (although... not really... a few minutes of work followed by lots of waiting). If you have the patience to do it, you are rewarded with an extremely durable and beautiful finish.

I have never used 100% pure linseed oil but I imagine it is similar...




gregfisk said:


> My understanding is you can put them on thicker and they dry faster



I know you are talking about another product, but with tung oil, thick coats are ill-advised. It really is a 'go slow' product

I used to do a couple of base coats of 75%/25% (turpene/oil), a couple of coats of 50%/50% and then a couple of 100% tung. If the wood is sucking up the thinned oil, you can put down thick coats. As soon as the wood fibers start to become saturated and you are using pure tung oil, you really have to use thin coats otherwise the drying times are ridiculous. Worse, you also risk creating gummy, resin-like spots on your surface - these can be irritating to work with and rectify (they just clog sandpaper etc...)


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## cotedupy (Jan 31, 2021)

I shall have to get some and see how it compares to the Feast Watson. I actually used it for other things (chopping board, magnetic knife rack, &c.) rather than handles, but I'm pretty sure didn't take days to dry, so obviously has other stuff mixed in.

It does sound like it might try my (lack of) patience a bit though!


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## Luftmensch (Jan 31, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I shall have to get some and see how it compares to the Feast Watson. I actually used it for other things (chopping board, magnetic knife rack, &c.) rather than handles, but I'm pretty sure didn't take days to dry, so obviously has other stuff mixed in.
> 
> It does sound like it might try my (lack of) patience a bit though!



Like I say... hardware store brands are fine for most project! They are designed to be effective and convenient. I use them in most projects. 

The only thing that gave me pause was wooden food preparation surface. If you don't want a 'wet' finish (mineral oil), food-safe drying oils and wax are a good substitute. Since I had the oils and wax... I decided to extend that paranoia to knife handles!


In the end the health risk from using general/furniture products on knife handles is probably very low once the products have set. The responsible thing to do is make sure you know what you are putting on them and understand the risks and exposure involved.


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