# What's your favourite workhorse?



## Nemo

Which workhorses do you like and why? Any price, any steel.

Not looking to buy a knife, just want to get an idea of who makes great workhorses and what is good about them.

Thanks.


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## bkultra

First define workhorse... Are we just talking thick knives or are you referring to a knife that can handle most tasks without a problem... Or perhaps a knife that you would choose to get through a ton of prep?


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## Nemo

I guess in part, the question was, inan oblique way, aimed at helping formulate this definition in my mind.
Most important for me is a knife with good food release that gets through prep quickly. Is this also the type of knife to handle most tasks well? I really don't know how important thickness is to this. I guess a certain amount of thickness is required to allow convexity for good food release? But if it's too thick behind the edge, it will not get through many ingredients quickly?


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## bkultra

lets take a Heiji for example... Its a thicker knife at the spine, but is very thin behind the edge and is also very hard. So i would not use this for some of the harder tasks, but it does excel at food release. If I was going to have a ton of prep to get through I would not want a heavy knife, instead I would want a mid weight kinfe that was longer in length. 

If you want to compare food release look at this thread (videos)

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/13910-Food-Release-Videos


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## dwalker

My best, all around, handle almost everything well, good food release, rarely reach for another for lots of prep, comfortable to use, good edge retention knife is my Toyama 240 kasumi.


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## malexthekid

Out of the knives I own my Ealy 270 gyuto is my "workhorse" i have a feeling thw grind on this is slightly thicker at the edge than his usual grind... the knife will wedge in denser product, crack thick cut carrots... but it gets razor sharp and after adapting to its personality... it can handle anything. What I would call a work horse.


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## bkultra

malexthekid said:


> it can handle anything. What I would call a work horse.



This is my definition of workhorse as well and both Kato & Heiji do not meet this criteria, yet they are some of the most referenced knives when talking about "workhorses". This is the problem with the term (even "laser" suffered from this problem). Laser originally referred to knives that would cut through material with little effort or resistance and later became a term that referred to thin knives.


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## khashy

bkultra said:


> This is my definition of workhorse as well and both Kato & Heiji do not meet this criteria, yet they are some of the most referenced knives when talking about "workhorses". This is the problem with the term (even "laser" suffered from this problem). Laser originally referred to knives that would cut through material with little effort or resistance and later became a term that referred to thin knives.



What would be your fav workhorse knife with that definition?


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## chinacats

I believe I've held one true workhorse knife and that was Salty's Mizuno honyaki gyuto that he was gracious enough to pass around a few years back. Damn thing was not thin behind the edge but balanced perfectly and cut like a ************. Sweet profile to boot.


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## khashy

chinacats said:


> I believe I've held one true workhorse knife and that was Salty's Mizuno honyaki gyuto that he was gracious enough to pass around a few years back. Damn thing was not thin behind the edge but balanced perfectly and cut like a ************. Sweet profile to boot.



Was that different from the honyaki Mizunos that are available for purchase now?


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## Nemo

chinacats said:


> I believe I've held one true workhorse knife and that was Salty's Mizuno honyaki gyuto that he was gracious enough to pass around a few years back. Damn thing was not thin behind the edge but balanced perfectly and cut like a ************. Sweet profile to boot.



I don't know if the grind is similar to my Miz hontanren B2, which is the one of my knives that I'd identify as the best workhorse.


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## scott.livesey

my idea of workhorse would be the knife most used in the kitchen. I am usually only cooking for 3 or 4 people and don't care for big knives. here is my go to knife, 



cutting edge is 3.875" long, 1.675 at the widest point. 0.06 at the spine, 0.005" at the edge, 0.02" 1/4" up and 0.03" 1/2" up. Handle is book matched red oak. I use a 10dps microbevel.
scott


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## Pensacola Tiger

khashy said:


> What would be your fav workhorse knife with that definition?



My current "workhorse" by that definition is a Scorpion Forge 240 in AEB-L.


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## bkultra

khashy said:


> What would be your fav workhorse knife with that definition?



My Masamoto, but keep in mind I'm not a professional. I don't come across nearly the same amount or verity of prep.


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## Eric

Tanaka ginsanko 210, home use.


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## Casaluz

For me, my workhorse is a knife that can handle any task without being afraid of chipping it or breaking the tip if I am not careful, that is to say, it is robust, and not too thin behind the edge. I would use it without thinking too much regardless if it is a block of cheese, a steak, fish for ceviche, a bunch of parsley or a tomato. It is large enough for most tasks but not so large that I would not use it for a bit of precision work mincing shallots for example. It can hold an edge for a long time, and not too sensitive to patina development. The profile has a long flat edge as I do not do rocking cuts very often (rarely I do) and instead I do push/pull cuts most of the time. It has a confortable handle, pleasant to the touch and not slippery when wet. It is the knife I reach for when I have people around that are not knife-aware in case they use it when I am distracted. This knife is my Aritsugu A type 210 mm Wa-Gyuto with white color buffalo horn bolster and ho wood octogonal handle.


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## spoiledbroth

Casaluz said:


> For me, my workhorse is a knife that can handle any task without being afraid of chipping it or breaking the tip if I am not careful, that is to say, it is robust, and not too thin behind the edge. I would use it without thinking too much regardless if it is a block of cheese, a steak, fish for ceviche, a bunch of parsley or a tomato. It is large enough for most tasks but not so large that I would not use it for a bit of precision work mincing shallots for example. It can hold an edge for a long time, and not too sensitive to patina development. The profile has a long flat edge as I do not do rocking cuts very often (rarely I do) and instead I do push/pull cuts most of the time. It has a confortable handle, pleasant to the touch and not slippery when wet. It is the knife I reach for when I have people around that are not knife-aware in case they use it when I am distracted. This knife is my Aritsugu A type 210 mm Wa-Gyuto with white color buffalo horn bolster and ho wood octogonal handle.



What's it like to sharpen that bad boy?


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## cheflarge

HHH San Mai 210mm blue #2 core, stainless clad gyuto.


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## Nemo

spoiledbroth said:


> What's it like to sharpen that bad boy?



Whats it like to THIN that bad boy?


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## malexthekid

spoiledbroth said:


> What's it like to sharpen that bad boy?



I have a 240 a-type gyuto and it isn't hard at all. But i do use the JKI diamond set.


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## TheCaptain

Ok spill. Where did you source that beauty?


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## chinacats

TheCaptain said:


> Ok spill. Where did you source that beauty?



If you're referring to my friend Casaluz's A-type, I would imagine A-Frames Tokyo...source of all kinds of goodies at most fair prices. Not a vendor here but seems to be trusted by most who've done business with him (Takeshi). Very solid source of quality natural stones as well.


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## Casaluz

My friend chinacats has it correctly in all counts and I echo his opinion. i use my stones to sharpen without issues or pain ( it is likely that I do not know what I am doing as well as many of you)


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## XooMG




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## Nemo

Ok, it took me a while to get it (I was thinking... what is XooMG getying at). Then.... oh yeah... that's funny.


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## JaVa

To me too workhorse always meant a middleweight no frills knife that can do it all and even take some abuse while never missing a beat. In a pro kitchen those to me would be the yo Tojiros, Misonos, Macs, Brietos etc. Those I see most in pro kitchens and those can take the beating that dumb cooks (like I used to be) put them thru everyday. 

After ten years of everyday pro use and my Mac Pro still does everything just as well as the first day I got. That's not to say the performance is great, but it's good. The first two years I even put it thru the restaurants dishwasher about twice a day. That's how ignorant i was back then. These days the Mac does look used but still not bruised. I have semi retired it to beater duties and these days my "workhorse" is the Itinimonn StainLess. 

But the way I see it, the "workhorse" fraise has changed thanks to JNS and Kato Workhorse knives. Now guys seem to use that term to describe fat bastards that cut like a dream. Meaning a knife that is a very powerful cutter, but performs with finesse and has good food release properties. Those would be the Katos, Watanabes, Toyomas etc. I don't own any of the "new" kind of workhorse knives yet, so I can't comment about them. One will be coming in in the very near future. I just need to make up my mind which one I want to get. 

I think it is kind of confusing at times with the meaning changing from one post to another about which kind of "workhorse" is being discussed. Usually it does become clear from the content, but I feel recently "workhorse" related threads has been more and more about the fat bastards kind of workhorse knives.


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## LucasFur

If I were employed to chop for many hours a day i would probably use my takeda. but at home for the last couple months I have been using strictly my carter. Might crack out my teruyasu soon though hmmm


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## panda

Work horse to me is just your main gyuto, which mine is masamoto ks.


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## bkultra

panda said:


> Work horse to me is just your main gyuto, which mine is masamoto ks.



I thought you preferred American maker, San Mai construction, with a core steel of AEB-L, and a length of 210mm or less? :biggrin:


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## panda

Oh yeah but that's supposed to be kept a secret. You forgot low HRC damascus with shiny handle.


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## Marek07

Casaluz said:


> For me, my workhorse is a knife that can handle any task without being afraid of chipping it or breaking the tip if I am not careful, that is to say, it is robust, and not too thin behind the edge. I would use it without thinking too much regardless if it is a block of cheese, a steak, fish for ceviche, a bunch of parsley or a tomato. It is large enough for most tasks but not so large that I would not use it for a bit of precision work mincing shallots for example. It can hold an edge for a long time, and not too sensitive to patina development. The profile has a long flat edge as I do not do rocking cuts very often (rarely I do) and instead I do push/pull cuts most of the time. It has a confortable handle, pleasant to the touch and not slippery when wet. It is the knife I reach for when I have people around that are not knife-aware in case they use it when I am distracted. This knife is my Aritsugu A type 210 mm Wa-Gyuto with white color buffalo horn bolster and ho wood octogonal handle.


lus1:
I think the many criteria listed by Casaluz are as good a definition of workhorse as you're ever likely to get.


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## labor of love

For what it's worth I suspect the Mizuno San Mai Gyuto with shinogi is similar to miz honyaki(besides the obvious). Miz honyaki is much taller ootb.


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## labor of love

My definition of a workhorse is a knife that's pretty damn good at just about everything. Gengetsu would be my workhorse. Fave "heavy" knives so far are all well known(watanabe,Toyama, heiji) also Yoshikane v2 Damascus.


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## Nemo

labor of love said:


> For what it's worth I suspect the Mizuno San Mai Gyuto with shinogi is similar to miz honyaki(besides the obvious). Miz honyaki is much taller ootb.



Thanks Labor, useful info.


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## Nemo

JaVa said:


> To me too workhorse always meant a middleweight no frills knife that can do it all and even take some abuse while never missing a beat. In a pro kitchen those to me would be the yo Tojiros, Misonos, Macs, Brietos etc. Those I see most in pro kitchens and those can take the beating that dumb cooks (like I used to be) put them thru everyday.
> 
> After ten years of everyday pro use and my Mac Pro still does everything just as well as the first day I got. That's not to say the performance is great, but it's good. The first two years I even put it thru the restaurants dishwasher about twice a day. That's how ignorant i was back then. These days the Mac does look used but still not bruised. I have semi retired it to beater duties and these days my "workhorse" is the Itinimonn StainLess.
> 
> But the way I see it, the "workhorse" fraise has changed thanks to JNS and Kato Workhorse knives. Now guys seem to use that term to describe fat bastards that cut like a dream. Meaning a knife that is a very powerful cutter, but performs with finesse and has good food release properties. Those would be the Katos, Watanabes, Toyomas etc. I don't own any of the "new" kind of workhorse knives yet, so I can't comment about them. One will be coming in in the very near future. I just need to make up my mind which one I want to get.
> 
> I think it is kind of confusing at times with the meaning changing from one post to another about which kind of "workhorse" is being discussed. Usually it does become clear from the content, but I feel recently "workhorse" related threads has been more and more about the fat bastards kind of workhorse knives.



I tend to think of a workhorse as your second definition (fat knife that cuts well, with great food release). But I get that this is a confusing term.


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## Nemo

If we limit the discussion to this category of workhorse (fat knife that's thin behind the edge with good food release), which are the blades to consider? Kato? Watanabe? Heiji? What else?


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## malexthekid

Kochi from JKI. Though i would say that description is more fitting or better used for a good wide bevel.


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## Badgertooth

Eric said:


> Tanaka ginsanko 210, home use.



For me too, and unexpectedly, this is a knife that has really grown on me and that I reach for a lot. When I want to do bulkier (albeit homecooking) prep,
Toyama 270 kasumi gyuto


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## Nemo

I thought that the Tanaka ginsanko was a pretty thin knife?

Is the Toyama a fat knife but thin behind the edge?


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## Evilsports

XooMG said:


>



I couldn't hear you, you must be a little ho(a)rse.


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## JaVa

Nemo said:


> I thought that the Tanaka ginsanko was a pretty thin knife?
> 
> Is the Toyama a fat knife but thin behind the edge?



I'm guessing they are talking about the the original nashiji version and not the K&S Migaki. The Nashiji is supposed to be the thickest line of knives from Tanaka. It's also a wide bevel knife and not convex grind like the migaki.


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## XooMG

Evilsports said:


> I couldn't hear you, you must be a little ho(a)rse.


I think the horse might sneeze because he's missing a-a-a-a...a-shoe.
I'll let myself out, thanks.


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## XooMG

I agree mostly with folks defining workhorse as a more durable knife that can handle tougher tasks without worry about damage, but curiously I don't have such a knife that I actually use.

Since 99% of what I do is vegetables, fruits, and boneless meat, I think my Yongli slicer currently gets the nod for a "get on with it" knife that makes me feel efficient:




(check out that etched core)


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## Nemo

Xoo, how is the food release on that cleaver?


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## XooMG

Nemo said:


> Xoo, how is the food release on that cleaver?


I ground the edge very thin and the bevel rather high, so it does not forcefully separate ingredients and thin sticky slices can climb. However, it is pretty easy to manage due to the height and sticking is generally weak due to convexity, finish, and near-edge thinness.

Performance in that regard really depends on how you set up the bevels.


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## TheCaptain

Why do I feel like a day with XooMg teaching me how to sharpen/polish would be like a kid in a candy store?


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## XooMG

TheCaptain said:


> Why do I feel like a day with XooMg teaching me how to sharpen/polish would be like a kid in a candy store?


Because I work in a candy store.

Seriously though, I am in the same boat as everyone else...a bit of pseudoknowledge, presumption, and self deception; and a bunch of feeling around in the dark.


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## Evilsports

XooMG said:


> Seriously though, I am in the same boat as everyone else...a bit of pseudoknowledge, presumption, and self deception; and a bunch of feeling around in the dark.



Sounds like my love life. :IMOK:


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## Salty dog

Work horses: Delbert Ealy Gyuto and the two pictured below. I don't have a photo of the Ealy but it's a big knife with pronounced geometry and good steel. Used for a large amount of carrots, onions, celery, potatoes etc.
Top photo is a Masashi. I think I got it from CKTG but haven't seen it listed since. Tall mirror polished stainless that keeps the edge a long time. The polish hasn't lost it's luster either. A good one for the above tasks and low maintenance.
The Mizuno suminigashi is my all around favorite but will choose one of the above listed knives for heavy tedious work.
As the Tiger said the honyaki version of the Mizuno is a good work horse as well. It's bigger and thicker than the sumi version.


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## Nemo

Thanks Salty.

Miz honyaki is getting a lot of love!


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## Salty dog

I was surprised when I got mine. A different animal than the suninigashi. A lot more steel.


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## Nemo

Salty dog said:


> I was surprised when I got mine. A different animal than the suninigashi. A lot more steel.



In a good way, by the sounds if it?


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## stuplarosa

Salty dog said:


> I was surprised when I got mine. A different animal than the suninigashi. A lot more steel.



Anything like the Mizuno Honyaki with a western handle?


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## stuplarosa

Nemo said:


> If we limit the discussion to this category of workhorse (fat knife that's thin behind the edge with good food release), which are the blades to consider? Kato? Watanabe? Heiji? What else?



So far, other than Kato which has become nearly impossible to get, nobody is mentioning any Western-handled workhorses. Do reasonable ones exist that a normal human can actually purchase?


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## cheflarge

HHH San Mai blue #2, asymmetric workhorse grind......... I have a 210mm version & have to say it is my best one yet!


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## pleue

TF Denka 270


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## labor of love

Gesshin ittetsu. I don't really wanna say it's a "workhorse" but it's big, tall, heavy and it cuts great.


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## Badgertooth

pleue said:


> TF Denka 270



That must be terrifying piece of steel


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## pleue

Yep she's a beast. I'll snap a photo when I get a chance. I got it with most of the kurouchi worked off so I got it for a song.


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## jbart65

Tanaka Sekiso. I evidently got an outstading rendition. Does everything well and now that it has a patina it's easy to care for. Edge retention gives it the edge over the KS.

That said, a friend who has used my Sekiso says his Toyama is like the Sekiso turned up to 11.


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## Badgertooth

jbart65 said:


> ...
> That said, a friend who has used my Sekiso says his Toyama is like the Sekiso turned up to 11.



Not a bad shout that. I have both and adjusted the geometry of the Tanaka a little by thinning it so it pips the Toyama on moving through food. It'll also take a finer edge but won't hold it as long. I still reckon a group buy of an Honyaki batch by Shigekisaku via K&S would be awesome.


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## khashy

Badgertooth said:


> Not a bad shout that. I have both and adjusted the geometry of the Tanaka a little by thinning it so it pips the Toyama on moving through food. It'll also take a finer edge but won't hold it as long. I still reckon a group buy of an Honyaki batch by Shigekisaku via K&S would be awesome.



I'd be up for it. Definitely.


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## Customfan

I´d be tempted as we´ll... 

I reach for my kikuichi 240mm western stainless quite a bit these days, also a kono HD 240mm gyuto with tactical micarta handle, but I go through waves...


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## labor of love

Customfan said:


> I´d be tempted as we´ll...
> 
> I reach for my kikuichi 240mm western stainless quite a bit these days, also a kono HD 240mm gyuto with tactical micarta handle, but I go through waves...



Oh man, how embarrassing!


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## Iggy

Catcheside 270 SC125 Honyaki and Xerxes 1.2419.05 Sanmai Custom... 

No chance for my Kato... so I sold it :cool2:


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## Matus

I have not used that many workhorses - Kato 240 was a bit 'too much' for me, Watanabe 240 is a very nice knife too. But I am enjoying my Munetoshi 240 immensly now. I do not use it for tall hard vegetables - I have thinner knives for that, but for everything else it is a joy to use. And the flat profile suits me and my kitchen counter (me - small, kitchen counter - tall) very well. I do wish it was a little bit taller, but the height of 50 or 51 mm is still OK.


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## khashy

Badgertooth said:


> Not a bad shout that. I have both and adjusted the geometry of the Tanaka a little by thinning it so it pips the Toyama on moving through food. It'll also take a finer edge but won't hold it as long. I still reckon a group buy of an Honyaki batch by Shigekisaku via K&S would be awesome.



@BT, is this something we could actually do or a kind of 'wouldn't it be nice to...' ?


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## jbart65

Matus said:


> But I am enjoying my Munetoshi 240 immensly now. I do not use it for tall hard vegetables - I have thinner knives for that, but for everything else it is a joy to use. And the flat profile suits me and my kitchen counter (me - small, kitchen counter - tall) very well. I do wish it was a little bit taller, but the height of 50 or 51 mm is still OK.



I recently tried a Munetoshi on a passaround but there were clearly some quality control issues. The knife was reprofiled by a pro sharpener after the problems were noted. There was much about the profile I liked but it was hard to get past the uneven grind. Perhaps it's worth another shot.


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## Noodle Soup

Mine is an old carbon steel F. Dick 10-inch chef a friend gave me for Christmas a few years ago. It was all hollowed out in front of the bolster like most pro carbon knives end up after years of use so I sent it to Seattle Edge for regrinding and thinning. He did a great job on it. I have a fairly large collection of Japanese blades every one here loves here but that old German blade is good as any of them. Cuts great, holds an edge for reasonable amounts of time and resharpens with ease. Everything Japanese gyuto knives try to be.


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## Matus

Well, the uneven grind of the Munetoshi probably starts as uneven forging. The bevels are ground on a wheel under fixed angle (my interpretation) so they are slightly hollow (on the other side of the spectrum of evenness of hollow grind bevels would be Kochi - mine es ground very evenly). When one starts to work them flat on stones it turnes out, that these are not 100% even and some spots will stay visible for longer. Still - these are rather shallow and it is only a matter of optics, not performance. None of them on my knife was deep enough to be a cause for a concern. But I have accepted that given the price category.


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## scott.livesey

my blades don't have name brands. for working large items, I use a thin(1/16" at spine) 8" chef's knife or a small, 7" x 2 1/2", cleaver. for everything else, a 4" ajikiri/utility knife.


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## Benuser

For me a work horse is the knife I want to go at war with, not knowing what to expect or what will be needed. I've an old Sheffield that's a great candidate, has lost some width, though. A Herder 1922 chef's is a fantastic all-rounder but sometimes a bit short. My recent Masahiro 240 probably wins.


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## StonedEdge

By that definition my Tojiro DP 240 western deba would be the kitchen tool I'd bring to battle haha.....I know what you actually mean though


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## Benuser

If I have to lend out a knife and can't refuse I indeed choose a Western deba, a Misono Swedish, so repair is very easy.


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## StonedEdge

Agreed!


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## Benuser

StonedEdge said:


> By that definition my Tojiro DP 240 western deba would be the kitchen tool I'd bring to battle haha.....I know what you actually mean though



A want a stout knife with a good distal taper and a fine tip, thin behind the edge but with a robust edge. Forward balance and a large flat spot. Tip not too high nor too low.
So a good old Sab with a decent retention.


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## K813zra

For me it used to be a Tojiro 165mm Shiro Santoku. Now, I realize this will not appeal to most but I cook for only my wife and I most of the time and need nothing larger. I have since upgraded to a Watanabe Santoku and I can not put it down. I am sure that there are things that I would not want to do with this knife but then they are the same things I would not want to do with a knife at all. 

I go with previously posted definition here, my go to knife. Of course I am paraphrasing.


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## chefs-edge

I love I.O. Shen for work. Really durable, solid san mai construction, good edge retention and not chippy at all. Best thing they look nice but I don't have to worry about them like other J knives.


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## khashy

chefs-edge said:


> I love I.O. Shen for work. Really durable, solid san mai construction, good edge retention and not chippy at all. Best thing they look nice but I don't have to worry about them like other J knives.



I have a 300mm giant gyuto by I.O.Shen. I cannot figure out what the core steel is for the life of me


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## Pamarill0

My workhorse is Richmond gt artifex 210 mm wa gyuto


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## chefs-edge

I can't find that information either. I think they keep it secret. I know whatever it is it does a great job been using mine for 6 years in fast paced kitchens.


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## inzite

hiromoto honyaki 270mm and TF denka 175mm cleaver


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## valgard

@inzite tease!


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## fatboylim

Nemo said:


> If we limit the discussion to this category of workhorse (fat knife that's thin behind the edge with good food release), which are the blades to consider? Kato? Watanabe? Heiji? What else?



Perhaps add: munetoshi, Toyama, mizuno, yoshimune.


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## labor of love

fatboylim said:


> Perhaps add: munetoshi, Toyama, mizuno, yoshimune.



Ittetsu. Don't tell anybody. It's my secret.


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## fatboylim

labor of love said:


> Ittetsu. Don't tell anybody. It's my secret.



Very interesting and not as heavy as my favourites. How does it compare to your newly reacquainted Toyama?


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## JBroida

fatboylim said:


> Very interesting and not as heavy as my favourites. How does it compare to your newly reacquainted Toyama?



for what its worth, he got a thicker than average one... thats what he was looking for at the time and I had a couple on the thicker side around


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## fatboylim

JBroida said:


> for what its worth, he got a thicker than average one... thats what he was looking for at the time and I had a couple on the thicker side around



A great match up once again Jon, no wonder that he is a happy man!


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## Customfan

Interesting!...... I'm very curious on the Toyama, I should open a thread...


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## labor of love

fatboylim said:


> A great match up once again Jon, no wonder that he is a happy man!



Definitely. The particular one I own is close in specs and measurements to Toyama but it's a diff knife altogether. And the prior ittetsu gyuto I owned was probably the thinnest gyuto I've ever used. So yeah, ittetsu isn't synonymous with thick knives necessarily I just happen to track down an individual gyuto that I favor.


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## admissioninfo

my favorite is machine or person both .
a person or machine that dependably performs hard work over a long period of time.

JSS Academy of Technical Education Bangalore admission
CMR Institute of Technology Bangalore 
St. Josephs College of Business Administration direct admission


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