# Nano Hone 200 vs Suehiro debado 180/200 or Shapton 220s



## mrmoves92 (Feb 27, 2022)

Hello! 

Quick summary:
I am in the market for another splash and go coarse stone. I really like my Nano Hone 200, and I am wondering how it compares to the Suehiro debado ld-21 or md-20, Shapton Kuromaku 220, or Shapton Glass 220. I care most about how deep the scratches are when polishing bevels, how fast the stone dishes, how long the stone lasts (stone life/$), and maybe cutting speed.

Longer Explanation:
My first coarse stone was a Gesshin 220 pink brick. I generally liked that stone (well enough to use it until it got to ~1 mm in thickness), but I didn’t like how fast it dished or how it would leave very coarse and very deep scratches while thinning and polishing.

I got the Nano Hone 200 because I was running out of Gesshin 220, and I wanted a splash and go coarse stone that I could take on the go. After using the Nano Hone 200 for a while, I realized that I really like it, and it did not have the same issues as the Gesshin 220. It did not dish super quickly or leave super deep/coarse scratches while thinning or polishing. I am very happy with this stone.

After thinning and polishing several knives and sharpening numerous knives, I have 3-4 mm left, which seems fair, but I am realizing that I need to find a replacement soon because I don’t have that much stone left. While thinking about replacement, I thought that maybe a different coarse splash and go stone could offer the same performance and characteristics that I like about the Nano Hone 200 while offering a better value of stone life/thickness to $. I will happily repurchase the Nano Hone 200 if other stones do not offer the same properties, so I am hoping to learn how other stones compare to it in this thread. I am wondering how the Nano Hone 200 compares to the Suehiro Debado ld-21/md-20, Shapton Kuromaku 220, and the Shapton Glass 220. Also, if you have any other suggestions, I would love to hear them.


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## Garm (Feb 27, 2022)

Of the stones you mention I've only used the Shapton Glass, so I can't be of much assistance.
Here's a video @Matus made comparing the SG with Nanohone and Bester stones.


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## Matus (Feb 27, 2022)

Sorry for all that shaking. I don't have a proper equipment to make at least a half decent videos. Just a phone on a wonky table-top tripod.


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## M1k3 (Feb 27, 2022)

4 layered 70 micron (200 grit range) Sharpening Stone


FOR POWER USERS! Same quality as single Nano Hone 70 micron sharpening stone. Cuts fast, last longer satisfaction guaranteed. Sink bridge and stage shown for reference; not included in purchase of stone.




nanohone.com


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## EricEricEric (Feb 27, 2022)

IMO anything below 600grit should be diamond 

I hate my shapton 150, and the 320 is just ok for me while the 1k-5k are just amazing

Their 1k is actually more around 800 from my understanding


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## Rangen (Feb 27, 2022)

EricEricEric said:


> IMO anything below 600grit should be diamond



You have excluded the magnificent Shapton Glass 500.

I do not have tons of experience in the lower grits, say 400 and below, but what I have says that diamond stones are slower than friable bond stones, except for vitrified diamond stones, which are really productive under pressure.


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## Cliff (Feb 27, 2022)

I am very, very impressed by the Debado 180. I prefer it to Nubatama Platinum 220 and Shapton Pro 120, which are my other options.


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## Rangen (Feb 27, 2022)

Cliff said:


> I am very, very impressed by the Debado 180. I prefer it to Nubatama Platinum 220 and Shapton Pro 120, which are my other options.



Any details about what you like about it?


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## tcmx3 (Feb 27, 2022)

Rangen said:


> Any details about what you like about it?



hard, fast, doesn't gouge, easily dressed, minimal dishing, splash and go, acceptable price


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## mrmoves92 (Feb 27, 2022)

Cliff said:


> I am very, very impressed by the Debado 180. I prefer it to Nubatama Platinum 220 and Shapton Pro 120, which are my other options.





tcmx3 said:


> hard, fast, doesn't gouge, easily dressed, minimal dishing, splash and go, acceptable price


Does the debado 180 leave any really deep/coarse scratches when thinning?


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## sansho (Feb 27, 2022)

The Greatest Sharpening Stone in the World


Right, now that I have your attention... I am not going to disappoint. Here is a picture of it: And another: Doesn't look like much does it? But those in the know, will know. This is an 8x2" vitrified Aluminium Oxide combination stone rolling at around 140 grit on one side and 600-800...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





could be worth a look. cheap and slow to dish. idk about the rest yet.


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## tcmx3 (Feb 27, 2022)

mrmoves92 said:


> Does the debado 180 leave any really deep/coarse scratches when thinning?



compared to what? it's a 180 grit stone.

but no, at least compared to SP120 (which is obviously coarser) or Atoma (which I DESPISE for thinning)


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## mrmoves92 (Feb 27, 2022)

tcmx3 said:


> compared to what? it's a 180 grit stone.
> 
> but no, at least compared to SP120 (which is obviously coarser) or Atoma (which I DESPISE for thinning)


Good question! Compared to the Gesshin 220 pink brick (or the other 220 pink bricks) and the Nano Hone 200, if possible.

If you don’t have experience with those stones, then maybe we could compare it to how long the next stone took to remove those scratches. My next stone in my progression is a SG500, and if I remember correctly, you also use this stone. After thinning with the Suehiro Debado 180, how long does it take you to get out all of its scratches with the SG500?

For me, the Nano Hone 200 leaves appropriately coarse, ~200 grit scratches that probably take ~5 minutes to get rid of with the SG500. The Gesshin 220 would leave ~220 grit scratches, but it would also leave stray scratches or groups of scratches that were very deep, similar to ~60-120 grit, and these would probably take at least 20 minutes to completely get out on the SG500. I just refinished a Wakui stainless clad white #2 gyuto. I previously left some of the very deep scratches from the Gesshin 220, and when I started on the Nano Hone 200, those deep scratches still took a little while to get out, even with the NH200.


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## tcmx3 (Feb 28, 2022)

mrmoves92 said:


> Good question! Compared to the Gesshin 220 pink brick (or the other 220 pink bricks) and the Nano Hone 200, if possible.
> 
> If you don’t have experience with those stones, then maybe we could compare it to how long the next stone took to remove those scratches. My next stone in my progression is a SG500, and if I remember correctly, you also use this stone. After thinning with the Suehiro Debado 180, how long does it take you to get out all of its scratches with the SG500?
> 
> For me, the Nano Hone 200 leaves appropriately coarse, ~200 grit scratches that probably take ~5 minutes to get rid of with the SG500. The Gesshin 220 would leave ~220 grit scratches, but it would also leave stray scratches or groups of scratches that were very deep, similar to ~60-120 grit, and these would probably take at least 20 minutes to completely get out on the SG500. I just refinished a Wakui stainless clad white #2 gyuto. I previously left some of the very deep scratches from the Gesshin 220, and when I started on the Nano Hone 200, those deep scratches still took a little while to get out, even with the NH200.



I haven't tested that extensively. I would ask @Badgertooth he polishes more than I do.

fwiw I have done it once and it turned out fine but it was just 1 knife. Instead I purchased a Chosera 400 to go inbetween the two and the results have been really fantastic. it may seem a bit overkill but the earlier you are in your progression the more important it is to keep it tight. also the Cho 400 does feel better for a second, slower shaping step than SG500 which I mostly use to check for flatness and to get things ready for 1k.


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## Cliff (Feb 28, 2022)

mrmoves92 said:


> Does the debado 180 leave any really deep/coarse scratches when thinning?



These things are relative, and I have not tried stainless yet. But I would say no: the scratches have been very easy to get out with a JNS 320. It's an expensive stone, but, so far, it does everything well. It's fast, really doesn't need to soak, and the scratches are not too deep to get out with other stones I have. Feel isn't a huge consideration to me, especially at this grit range, but even on that score I would give it high marks.


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## mk4pi (Mar 1, 2022)

mrmoves92 said:


> Does the debado 180 leave any really deep/coarse scratches when thinning?


It's take me around 5-8 min on SG500 to completely remove the mark from the Debado 180, per side, on a Moritaka Cleaver. Not so bad i would say.


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## hmh (Mar 1, 2022)

I am also hesitating between the Nano Hone 200 and the Suehiro Debado 200 (MD-20). Anyone has tried both of these and likes one better than the other?


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## mrmoves92 (Mar 1, 2022)

Thank you for the helpful responses!

I called MTC Kitchen yesterday to try to get a direct comparison between the Nano Hone 200 and the Suehiro Debado MD-20. I was told that the quality is about the same, that the Debado is larger and does not come with a base, and that the manager prefers the Debado (I think that is what the person on the phone said). I asked about the depth of scratches while thinning/polishing, but I didn’t really get an answer. I might try emailing them to get a more detailed answer to my scratch depth question.


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## zizirex (Mar 1, 2022)

Get the Debado, you'll not be dissapointed. If you want something faster, get SP120. the load up is annoying but it's hardly dishes. i suggest you buy the Shapton lapping disc, it's very useful to clean up a coarse stone.


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## milangravier (Mar 3, 2022)

Hey, 
I have shaped about 200 knives in two years. I have try about all coarse stones in the market (actually I missed the shapton pro 120). I am working with Debado 180. Great stone. It is working fast, not too soft, not too hard, sweet spot. It is splash n go. It will wear but slowly, it doesn't really stop cutting. It is a big stone.
Just beware of something (I want to do a post about it) : there is some non consistency on the stones. I am using my third Debado 180. First one was great. Second it is little bit harder on one end. Third was too hard, mean it behave very different from the two others. I open a fourth one that is good hopefully. I still use that hard one for control (because it is harder you better check you eveness on the bevel). I may contact Suehiro but I don't know (two people report me they had same behavior of a hard Debado)


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## Kiru (Mar 9, 2022)

mrmoves92 said:


> Good question! Compared to the Gesshin 220 pink brick (or the other 220 pink bricks) and the Nano Hone 200, if possible.
> 
> If you don’t have experience with those stones, then maybe we could compare it to how long the next stone took to remove those scratches. My next stone in my progression is a SG500, and if I remember correctly, you also use this stone. After thinning with the Suehiro Debado 180, how long does it take you to get out all of its scratches with the SG500?
> 
> For me, the Nano Hone 200 leaves appropriately coarse, ~200 grit scratches that probably take ~5 minutes to get rid of with the SG500. The Gesshin 220 would leave ~220 grit scratches, but it would also leave stray scratches or groups of scratches that were very deep, similar to ~60-120 grit, and these would probably take at least 20 minutes to completely get out on the SG500. I just refinished a Wakui stainless clad white #2 gyuto. I previously left some of the very deep scratches from the Gesshin 220, and when I started on the Nano Hone 200, those deep scratches still took a little while to get out, even with the NH200.


Are you using the LD180 for blade polishing or edge sharpening?
If you're using it for blade polishing I will have to suggest having a stone in between, 180 to 500 is a pretty big jump and personally I think the SG500 is slightly finer than 500 as well.

That being said, I've been using the Suehiro SNE 320 after the 180, and it's working very well for polishing application.


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## spaceconvoy (Mar 9, 2022)

milangravier said:


> there is some non consistency on the stones


I've experienced this with Shaptons. I think it's a more widespread problem than we realize, since most people don't buy multiples of the same stone. After all, stones have something similar to a 'heat treat' and anyone who's fired pottery can tell you how much variation can happen between different spots in a kiln.

I also wonder if supply chain issues have made this more of a problem in recent years. Maybe they can't afford to discard the duds anymore? This is a speculatory, but sometimes I'll read someone's take on a particular stone and wonder if they got the same stone as I did.


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## mrmoves92 (Mar 9, 2022)

Kiru said:


> Are you using the LD180 for blade polishing or edge sharpening?
> If you're using it for blade polishing I will have to suggest having a stone in between, 180 to 500 is a pretty big jump and personally I think the SG500 is slightly finer than 500 as well.
> 
> That being said, I've been using the Suehiro SNE 320 after the 180, and it's working very well for polishing application.


I will be using the ~200 grit stone for both blade polishing and edge sharpening, but my main concerns are about blade polishing. I think that this thread has convinced me to try the Suehiro Debado MD-20. I am looking for another stone to get free shipping from MTC Kitchen, so maybe I could get a stone between 200 and 500 grit (although, I was thinking of buying/trying the arashiyama 6k for polishing between my JNS red Aoto and Morihei 9k). I do have a Naniwa Pro 400 that I have been using interchangeably with the SG500. Would that still be too fine to be next in the progression after the ~200 grit stone?

As I said in one of the posts above, I have no issues moving from the Nano Hone 200 to the SG500 while polishing. Would you expect this to be different with the jump from the MD-20 (or your 180) to the SG500 or the NP400?

Thanks!


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## zizirex (Mar 9, 2022)

there wouldn't be any issue from Debado to NP400 or SG500, but it will take slightly longer to remove the scratch


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## mrmoves92 (Mar 9, 2022)

zizirex said:


> there wouldn't be any issue from Debado to NP400 or SG500


Thank you!


zizirex said:


> but it will take slightly longer to remove the scratch


With the Debado to NP400 or SG500, it will take longer to remove the scratches than what? Than with the Nano Hone 200? Than a ~320 grit stone? Or something else?

I am sorry if my questions are annoying, but I wasn’t sure exactly what you meant, and I wanted to clarify.

Thanks!


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## zizirex (Mar 9, 2022)

from Debado 200 to NP/SG compare NH200 to NP/SG.
If you go with tighter progression 200, 320, 400, 500 it will take less time for each stone.


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## Kiru (Mar 9, 2022)

mrmoves92 said:


> I will be using the ~200 grit stone for both blade polishing and edge sharpening, but my main concerns are about blade polishing. I think that this thread has convinced me to try the Suehiro Debado MD-20. I am looking for another stone to get free shipping from MTC Kitchen, so maybe I could get a stone between 200 and 500 grit (although, I was thinking of buying/trying the arashiyama 6k for polishing between my JNS red Aoto and Morihei 9k). I do have a Naniwa Pro 400 that I have been using interchangeably with the SG500. Would that still be too fine to be next in the progression after the ~200 grit stone?
> 
> As I said in one of the posts above, I have no issues moving from the Nano Hone 200 to the SG500 while polishing. Would you expect this to be different with the jump from the MD-20 (or your 180) to the SG500 or the NP400?
> 
> Thanks!



As @zizirex said, tighter progression will make your sharpening shorter for each stone.
To answer your question, I think 200 -> 400 is quite reasonable, I like to keep the progression tighter especially under 1K that's all  

I am unsure with the MD-20 tho, I've never tried that one, the one I was referring to is this one
Migoto Cutlery | Suehiro LD #180 Grit 

The arashiyama is a great stone, a little thirsty for me but finish is great.


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## zizirex (Mar 10, 2022)

Kiru said:


> As @zizirex said, tighter progression will make your sharpening shorter for each stone.
> To answer your question, I think 200 -> 400 is quite reasonable, I like to keep the progression tighter especially under 1K that's all
> 
> I am unsure with the MD-20 tho, I've never tried that one, the one I was referring to is this one
> ...


Both Debado LD 180 and MD 200 are the same stone. Just different dimension, one is wider, one is thicker. I got the confirmation from Suehiro directly.


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## milangravier (Mar 10, 2022)

Kiru said:


> Are you using the LD180 for blade polishing or edge sharpening?
> If you're using it for blade polishing I will have to suggest having a stone in between, 180 to 500 is a pretty big jump and personally I think the SG500 is slightly finer than 500 as well.
> 
> That being said, I've been using the Suehiro SNE 320 after the 180, and it's working very well for polishing application.



I can confirm that SG500 will be a bit too weak for erasing the debado 180 scratches. I use a diamond vitrified 400 just after the Debado. Those things are expensive but you don't regret it. Then I use Naniwa pro 400 that is quite fine, almost as fine as SG500.
If I was to go for a 320 or 400 right after Debado 180, I would go for a fast one like Gesshin 400, or maybe just go Naniwa pro 400. I tried Debado sne 320 and I am not a fan (did not feel super fast, wear quite fast, and was a little pain to flatten).
When you're shaping your bevels, it really doesn't matter to use like 3 or 4 coarse stones one after the other, you will generally work faster and cleaner than doing a huge gap.
If I want to make a perfect work, I use Debado 180, then a 180 very hard (namikawa or the hard debado I got), then 400 diamond vitrified, then naniwa pro 400, then naniwa pro 600. After that all is clean and shaped to go mid great with no issue at all.


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## Garm (Mar 10, 2022)

spaceconvoy said:


> I've experienced this with Shaptons.


My Shapton Glass 220 feels very coarse and gritty the last 3-4cm in one end, while the rest of the stone feels noticeably smoother.
This persists after several lapping sessions.
Only stone aside from a natural I've experienced this with.


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## lane (Mar 10, 2022)

spaceconvoy said:


> I've experienced this with Shaptons. I think it's a more widespread problem than we realize, since most people don't buy multiples of the same stone. After all, stones have something similar to a 'heat treat' and anyone who's fired pottery can tell you how much variation can happen between different spots in a kiln.
> 
> I also wonder if supply chain issues have made this more of a problem in recent years. Maybe they can't afford to discard the duds anymore? This is a speculatory, but sometimes I'll read someone's take on a particular stone and wonder if they got the same stone as I did.



I had to create specialized sintered ceramics and metals for several years in highly technical applications (aircraft engines, nuclear reactors, etc.), so I can tell you that there are all kinds of skin effects and inconsistencies through even a fairly thin piece of sintered or compressed ceramic (including SiO and AlO). That's clearly a problem in waterstones. One of the key early successes Norton had with their India and Crystolon stones was creating a composite stone that was consistent all the way through. It brought compromises, but it was a huge step forward and was responsible for making the machining and tooling industry what it is today. However, stones like SG's are a higher technical challenge. If you own a double SG500, you've noticed that it looks from the side like two single stones bonded together. That's exactly what it is. You can only assemble a stone like that to a certain depth without expensive technologies. Just putting the oxide into a press and heating and pressing it addresses the outer 1-2 mm almost immediately and does little for the middle. If you have reason to use a stone like the SG500 heavily, you may notice that it starts out hard, slow, and non-slurrying, almost as if it were glazed, and once you've reduced the thickness it picks up a lot of speed and slurries much faster. The quality of the grind is unchanged because it's still the same size grit, but the quality of the stone manufacture has changed a few millimeters in. If you take a double SG500 and work all the way through to the midpoint, you'll find a point where it again becomes slower and harder to sharpen on; then it eases up as you go into the next layer of the stone. The only way to avoid this problem in most cases is to do extremely slow heating and pressure (Arkansas Stones had a couple hundred thousand years to do it and the better Japanese natural stones had some forty thousand years or so) or to use a process where one applies a thin film of grit, heat and compress, then repeat several times. These are both very expensive processes.

The process from batch to batch is also extremely variable and thus stones are highly inconsistent. I've found that especially the case on inspection and testing with some of the minor brands and with Suehiro. Shapton, love them or not, do have pretty good consistency, partly because they do some very expensive, very high precision grinding products for the fine machine tooling industry. It's the nature of a Naniwa Pro (Chosera) that it simply isn't compressed with that much heat, so it doesn't develop much differentiation through the depth of the stone. Some of this comes about from the choice of cementitious aggregate (the stuff that actually holds the stone together) -- some is very heat tolerant, some is not, so the stone undergoes different amounts of compression and heating (less with the Chosera).

So yes, if you have different experiences with a stone from another user, it's not unlikely. And if you get jaded on a stone (pardon the pun) that's not just because you have a wandering eye. Many of them really do change behavior as you work through even a couple millimeters of depth.


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## Kiru (Mar 10, 2022)

milangravier said:


> I can confirm that SG500 will be a bit too weak for erasing the debado 180 scratches. I use a diamond vitrified 400 just after the Debado. Those things are expensive but you don't regret it. Then I use Naniwa pro 400 that is quite fine, almost as fine as SG500.
> If I was to go for a 320 or 400 right after Debado 180, I would go for a fast one like Gesshin 400, or maybe just go Naniwa pro 400. I tried Debado sne 320 and I am not a fan (did not feel super fast, wear quite fast, and was a little pain to flatten).
> When you're shaping your bevels, it really doesn't matter to use like 3 or 4 coarse stones one after the other, you will generally work faster and cleaner than doing a huge gap.
> If I want to make a perfect work, I use Debado 180, then a 180 very hard (namikawa or the hard debado I got), then 400 diamond vitrified, then naniwa pro 400, then naniwa pro 600. After that all is clean and shaped to go mid great with no issue at all.


Hey Milan, I’m surprised you found the SNE wears fast! From my experience the SNE 320 is quite wear resistant, maybe it’s due to the quality varies from different batches… or simply because you use the stone more than I do


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## inferno (Mar 11, 2022)

mrmoves92 said:


> Hello!
> 
> Quick summary:
> I am in the market for another splash and go coarse stone. I really like my Nano Hone 200, and I am wondering how it compares to the Suehiro debado ld-21 or md-20, Shapton Kuromaku 220, or Shapton Glass 220. I care most about how deep the scratches are when polishing bevels, how fast the stone dishes, how long the stone lasts (stone life/$), and maybe cutting speed.
> ...



i have owned the glass 220. pro 220 and pro 120, sigma 240. bester 400.

pro 220 is 7-8/10 fast. dishes at 5-6/10 (lower is better)

glass 220 is 8-9/10 fast. dishes slower, maybe 3-4/10 its about 7-8mm thick.

pro 120 could be very very fast. like 10/10 and also a lot slower like 3/10 dependiong on the steel. i dont recommend this stone. its very specialized. basically you cant push as hard as the stone needs. usually

sigma 240. depending on steel type if could be 10/10 or 5/10. wears faster than the shaptons. can't hold water unless you seal it.

i find the sigma better for very hard steel monos and the 220 pro better for everything else carbon/ss/clad etc.

the glass is better than the pro but its less stone on there. overall its a better faster stone. will probably last the same amount of time. when the pro/glass works slow its time for the sigma. and vice versa. they are pretty much the exact opposite in steel preference. so you need both.

scratches - the pro 120 leaves atoma 140 like scratches. and so does the sigma. you need to follow up with a good 500 or so like the glass 500. gonna take ages to get rid off with a 1k.


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## milangravier (Mar 15, 2022)

Kiru said:


> Hey Milan, I’m surprised you found the SNE wears fast! From my experience the SNE 320 is quite wear resistant, maybe it’s due to the quality varies from different batches… or simply because you use the stone more than I do


Maybe it is because I am mostly using the stone for shaping, polishing, so I work more iron than hard steel. Actually, iron make some stones wear faster than grinding steel paradoxally.


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## AlexZin (Jul 10, 2022)

Hello,

I plan to buy a coarse stone mostly for knife repairs. I am between NanoHone 200 and Shapton Pro (Kuromaku) 220. If someone tried both (or has experience with both), I would appreciate your advise which one shall I go for ?

-Alex-


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## EricEricEric (Jul 10, 2022)

Shapton 120 with your choice of loose abrasive, ie Sic, AlumOx, Diamond


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## milangravier (Jul 11, 2022)

I did not try a hard coarse stone with Sic like Eric suggest, but I am often working with hard stones, surfacing them with the diamond plate and leaving the abrasive on the stone to profit from the extra speed. Too much mud is not really good too, but loose abrasive on the surface surely help.
Comparing Nano vs Shapton on 220 grit, I would go nano hone I think. More precise, less dishing. I don't use it because of the ratio thickness/cost and I think some cheaper bigger stones can do the job (to my point of view). I used a lot Debado 180 (still using it, but combined with some others). I use now a lot the pink 200 grit from imanishi, little harder, great abrasion. Little finer than Debado so not as fast though. I also use the kongo stones from namikawa : better to get two soft and one hard : soft for the main grind, hard to check and finalize. Anyway, I use a lot the combinaison of a soft and a hard coarse stone, I think it's great to have both to do fast and precise work.


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