# What to do?



## James (Apr 9, 2013)

I'm in a bit of a pickle. So I bought a knife from a vendor (MR) and the blade was left alone for 5 months before I started thinning it. I found some pretty bad grind issues (quite a nice divot 1" in diameter causing part of the knife face to be a bit concave), tried to fix them, couldn't and then and emailed the vendor. The vendor referred me to someone (SF) who works for him and SF wants to charge me to regrind the knife.

Now, I don't really mind paying to fix issues if I caused the problem, but this was a factory issue. Should I just flat out email the vendor back after he referred me to SF and ask for a refund 5 months after I purchased and worked on the knife?


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## El Pescador (Apr 9, 2013)

Yes, or ask them to do the work for free.


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## Salty dog (Apr 9, 2013)

5 Months? SOL.


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## El Pescador (Apr 9, 2013)

IF the maker stands behind his work then you should be covered.


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## labor of love (Apr 9, 2013)

It doesn't hurt to ask. Maybe you can get atleast a partial refund.


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## heirkb (Apr 9, 2013)

If I'm understanding the post correctly, this is a vendor and not a maker. And if I understand the abbreviations correctly, this is someone who does not necessarily stand behind replacing defective products (think Moritaka). Not sure what you can do if that is the case.


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## Justin0505 (Apr 9, 2013)

5 months does cause quite a bit of an issue, and so does the fact that you already did some work on it. However, it's pretty common knowledge that over grinds like the one that you mentioned can take some time to show up. The vendor's response is not to the high standards of the vendors on here, but then again I'm guess that this wasn't a semi-custom or rare blade. What was is the knife? 
If it's what I'm suspecting, then you it's kind of a situation of buying a raffle ticket and getting what you paid for... 
Last thing I'd do though is pay that goofball money to try and "fix" anything.


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## labor of love (Apr 9, 2013)

Are you certain this defect can be fixed? I would like to see the divot in question. Can you take pics?


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## kalaeb (Apr 9, 2013)

I see this quickly becomming a us v. them arguement, but it should not be. No vendor (short of some custom makers).....or at least most that I can think of would take care of full refunds or free fixes that long after the transaction. 

5 months...I think you have failed your due diligence of inspecting the knife to make sure it fit your needs. 

I know the particular vendor will take back and refund items within a reasonable amount of time. I have personally returned two items... but 5 months is a bit much.


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## WildBoar (Apr 9, 2013)

Since it truly looks like something that could have only happened during the fabrication process you would hope that they would be willing to address a defective product. But I agree w/ heirkb -- 5 months is a long time to wait before contacting a vendor and telling them a manufactured product you bought (which has a minimal warranty) is defective


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## Mrmnms (Apr 9, 2013)

I agree. 5 months and your attempts to alter the knife kind of stick a fork in returns and credits.


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## James (Apr 9, 2013)

Yeah, I messed up. I should have checked it sooner or even just given the knife a run on a high grit stone. 

My camera skills are pretty lackluster, but I'll post a pic after dinner. 

Nope, not a moritaka, but it's an artifex. As for whether it can be fixed, who knows. If it can be, it'll need a heckuvalot of grinding. I'll contact them again and see what can be done. I'll keep you guys updated. Thanks for the responses so far.


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## James (Apr 9, 2013)

Well here it is.


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## chinacats (Apr 9, 2013)

If I was going to pay to fix it, it wouldn't be someone the vendor recommended, especially if it's his name on the knife and he won't at least offer some aid, especially on a type of issue that is known to possibly take time to show. 

I do agree that 5 months _may_ be pushing it, but I would be curious how it would be handled by a maker here that put his name on that blade? The other side is that good money would be on not having this be an issue with any makers here.

:2cents:


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## Squilliam (Apr 9, 2013)

I had something similar on a tojiro DP. It is no longer affecting the edge or right behind the edge because of the thinning, so what's the problem, apart from looks?


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## mhlee (Apr 9, 2013)

Squilliam said:


> I had something similar on a tojiro DP. It is no longer affecting the edge or right behind the edge because of the thinning, so what's the problem, apart from looks?



Based on the picture, from what I can tell, I think the problem is that the divot goes from just above the edge to, potentially, the spine. Consequently, in order to correct the overgrind, the OP has to regrind/thin the entire face of the blade. 

If he sharpens up to where the divot starts without regrinding the entire surface, he'll have a BIG hole in his edge and it'll continue well up the face of the blade.


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## El Pescador (Apr 9, 2013)

To truly fix the issue, he'd probably lose most of the tip.


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## cwrightthruya (Apr 9, 2013)

But, if he continues thinning as he sharpens, will he not eventually work part of that divot out before the edge ever hits it? It won't fix the problem, but in a home environment it should give him years of use before he ever develops a hole in the edge. My thought is that if he tries grinding that divot out all at once he is going to destroy the geometry of the tip. But, I could be wrong...

Haha ElPescador beat me to it...


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## Dave Martell (Apr 9, 2013)

I'm always in for taking a stab at Richmond but in this case I'm not going to be able to. I've seen this type of thing on a whole slew of Japanese knives so I'm not going to be able to point the finger as this being an issue that is only seen on a Richmond knife. Yes it's crappy but not at all uncommon, just ask anyone who's ever laid a knife down on a flat stone and they'll tell you a story. 

As for sending it to his guy, that may actually be a good thing if you can get him to accept liability for any screw ups he causes but if not then you can most certainly do better by blindly picking a name out of a phone book.

Funny but if this came to me to work on I'd be reluctant to touch it simply because it's setting up the craftsman for failure and no amount of $$ is worth taking the chance of screwing up a customer's knife. I hate to find myself in a position where I'm looked at as the one who screwed upa knife when it was already screwed up to begin with, I was just trying to work a miracle is all.


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## James (Apr 9, 2013)

To throw a wrench in the gears, there's another one, nowhere near as bad, towards the heel. Luckily, however, that area is quite beefy. 

I didn't realize that this was that common Dave. Surprising. Looks like I'll be sending MR and SF a long email tonight. Here's to being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

@ElPescador and mhlee - this is exactly what I'm afraid of. Holes in the edge and losing the tip.


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## mr drinky (Apr 9, 2013)

Yeah, 5 months is a long time. I think you have to eat it. 

And you missed the opportunity to 'launder' your purchase by buying a new one (as your replacement) and sending in the old one as faulty. Of course, by posting here you have completely eF-ed yourself. You could have gotten something in writing from MR that the SF work would 'fix' it, and if it didn't work (which it likely wouldn't), then you would have had a second chance at getting your money back or some other discount -- but I don't think that is going to happen now. 

Sorry bud, but I look forward to the WIP about you reprofiling/grinding it. 

k.


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## Squilliam (Apr 9, 2013)

Unless the overgrind is deeper than half the thickness of the knife, then you wont get holes in the edge. IMO it doesn't look that deep, so I wouldn't expect to see holes in the future. If you have a right hand asymmetric edge, then it's even less likely.


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## labor of love (Apr 9, 2013)

Squilliam said:


> Unless the overgrind is deeper than half the thickness of the knife, then you wont get holes in the edge. IMO it doesn't look that deep, so I wouldn't expect to see holes in the future. If you have a right hand asymmetric edge, then it's even less likely.


your really turning lemons into lemonade at that point!


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## chinacats (Apr 9, 2013)

^^ yes, but if there is ever a lemon shortage you will know where to stock up...


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## labor of love (Apr 9, 2013)

lol!


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## WiscoNole (Apr 9, 2013)

Considering we (most of us) live in a country where 90+% of businesses have a 30 day return/exchange policy, I think 5 months is a little long to be upset about it. It's part of American retail that is almost ingrained in us via it's popularity amongst businesses.


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## labor of love (Apr 10, 2013)

i see both sides. personally i think a partial refund/replacement is the best thing in this situation for both parties involved.


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## Jmadams13 (Apr 10, 2013)

Okay... SF?


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## Squilliam (Apr 10, 2013)

labor of love said:


> your really turning lemons into lemonade at that point!



I'm just saying that I don't think it's a problem beyond aesthetics.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 10, 2013)

James said:


> I didn't realize that this was that common Dave. Surprising. Looks like I'll be sending MR and SF a long email tonight. Here's to being stuck between a rock and a hard place.




Sorry, I should have been more clear in my explanation, the overall problem of low and high spots on knives is commonly seen when trying to flatten or thin with stones but this specifically is unique in how it's showing up on your knife, it's a tad more serious or problematic than I normally see. 

To give an example, when I thin Hiro AS knives I often find big lows right in front of the bolster where the factory ground the welds down. I also sometimes see lows right behind the tip too on these knives. Tojiro DPs also have this same sort of thing but so do Ichimonji and so on. None are exactly the same though.


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## labor of love (Apr 10, 2013)

Squilliam said:


> I'm just saying that I don't think it's a problem beyond aesthetics.



im sure it would affect the performance. ive seen stuff like this before.


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## toddnmd (Apr 10, 2013)

I don't mean to pile on, but 5 months is a long time. Although some manufacturers (not necessarily of knives) would stand by their product.

On the other hand, it does still look like a defect from original construction. 

I think you have more negotiating room if you use the vendor's recommended sharpener (I understand numerous members here have concerns). Maybe the buyer and maker/vendor could split the repair cost, and perhaps an agreement for replacement in case it is too difficult to fix (which would tilt the balance more clearly as the maker's responsibility). 

It would be nice if this could be resolved in a way acceptable to everyone, acknowledging some kind of fault on both sides, and the conditions for repair or replacement would somehow reflect everyone's responsibilties.


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## knyfeknerd (Apr 10, 2013)

I would just ditch the knife and never look back.
Been there done that.
All of the options sound like a lot more trouble than the knife is worth.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Apr 10, 2013)

James said:


> I'm in a bit of a pickle. So I bought a knife from a vendor (MR) and the blade was left alone for 5 months before I started thinning it. I found some pretty bad grind issues (quite a nice divot 1" in diameter causing part of the knife face to be a bit concave), tried to fix them, couldn't and then and emailed the vendor. The vendor referred me to someone (SF) who works for him and SF wants to charge me to regrind the knife.
> 
> Now, I don't really mind paying to fix issues if I caused the problem, but this was a factory issue. Should I just flat out email the vendor back after he referred me to SF and ask for a refund 5 months after I purchased and worked on the knife?



Find out if the maker guarantees his knives against defects (materials and workmanship). If he does, this issue should fall under warranty - over-grind is not a result of misuse. Time has nothing to do with this - most makers guarantee their products for life. Plus, finish on a knife can hide overgrinds pretty well, so it's not surprising that folks find them when they start thinning knives. 

Keep the community posted about what you find out. This stuff should be aired, so others don't end up in your shoes.


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## NO ChoP! (Apr 10, 2013)

It's a $70 knife. Polish it back up, keep using it, if a performance issue arises, toss it in the trash. Next time, we will help guide you to a proper purchase....


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## mkmk (Apr 10, 2013)

I don't think 5 months is actually too long, given that this would be a matter of warranty, not a return of a new purchase. But...

I'm having a very hard time seeing this as a serious issue. The hollow spot is several years of use away from showing up, and unless it's quite deep, it's unlikely to be an issue even then (the fact that it wasn't noticeable before suggests that it's fairly shallow, and would disappear as the knife is thinned/sharpened). Especially on a $70 knife, your expectations may be a little excessive.


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## chinacats (Apr 10, 2013)

mkmk said:


> Especially on a $70 knife, your expectations may be a little excessive.



A $70 knife with a maker's (retailer's) name attached. Wouldn't want my name on that pos. Seems since it is so inexpensive, it would be easier to replace or partial warranty just to promote good will--and not come off like you don't give a crap about your product once it leaves your store. Reputation would be better served to just suck up the loss and move on--again only if you really give a s%#t. Besides how much does he have invested in a $70 retail knife? Enough to take the heat for not just replacing it? Shows what his warranty is worth...my 2 cents.

This goes to the heart of why he has never been welcomed here and why people recommending his products catch such grief.


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## mkmk (Apr 10, 2013)

Sure, the seller should have probably done that -- better to just eat it and move on. That doesn't change the fact that it really looks from here like an imaginary problem.


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## franzb69 (Apr 10, 2013)

i have cheaper knives that have better grinds than that.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Apr 10, 2013)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Find out if the maker guarantees his knives against defects (materials and workmanship). If he does, this issue should fall under warranty - over-grind is not a result of misuse. Time has nothing to do with this - most makers guarantee their products for life. Plus, finish on a knife can hide overgrinds pretty well, so it's not surprising that folks find them when they start thinning knives.
> 
> Keep the community posted about what you find out. This stuff should be aired, so others don't end up in your shoes.



I guess I didn't read it correctly. I thought (SF) made the knife. In the case of $70 knife, I would say trash it or gift it so somebody less scrupulous, and learn your lesson - you get what you pay for. 

M


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## Sarge (Apr 10, 2013)

James said:


> Well here it is.



Personally I would thin from the back of the divot forward. It doesn't look terribly deep shouldn't cause a hole. I wouldn't do that thinning until I got to that point anyway. So you have plenty of time to not worry about it. And in the end you'll learn a few things sounds like you already have. Worst case you lose some of the tip area, best case it really isn't bad and you end up with a knife that is thinner at the tip. It is a big area but the fact that you are already seeing scratch pattern develop in that area tells me you could fix it with minor hassle. As is the knife didn't cost much and can now provide a value as a learning experience on and off the stones


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## Dave Martell (Apr 10, 2013)

It's a $70 knife? Well that sort of changes things at least from the standpoint of paying for a repair which I feel would be sort of dumb to do. So if you're stuck with the knife then maybe you should either keep grinding or forget about it and move on to something better having learned from the experience.


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## mhlee (Apr 10, 2013)

Knowing that there are knowledgeable people who have already chimed in here, are people not bringing up the really wavy looking grind away from the tip because it would just be piling on? Or am I missing something? (I understand that it could be caused by other things, but, assuming the grinding surface was flat, isn't this another grind issue?)


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## Dave Martell (Apr 10, 2013)

mhlee said:


> Knowing that there are knowledgeable people who have already chimed in here, are people not bringing up the really wavy looking grind away from the tip because it would just be piling on? Or am I missing something? (I understand that it could be caused by other things, but, assuming the grinding surface was flat, isn't this another grind issue?)




I noted that but I figured that it could be damage from use.


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## James (Apr 10, 2013)

It's the $120 m390 iteration of the artifex, but not a big difference. The wavey grind before the tip is actually caused by an uneven undergrind about 3" long. When placed flat on a surface, the knife does not stay flat, rather it has a rather interesting see-saw effect. 

I figure, worst comes to worst, I'll grind away. That wouldn't be too bad I guess, and heck, I'll learn some things. Thanks for all of the responses and suggestions. I love this forum


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## knyfeknerd (Apr 10, 2013)

Isn't that M390 steel supposed to wicked hard to move too?
Were these contracted out to Lamson as well?
Good luck James, let us know how it goes. 
Would you ever buy a MR line of knife again?


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## chinacats (Apr 10, 2013)

knyfeknerd said:


> Isn't that M390 steel supposed to wicked hard to move too?
> Were these contracted out to Lamson as well?
> Good luck James, let us know how it goes.
> Would you ever buy a MR line of knife again?



I think we now have a member from Lamson, maybe he can chime in?


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## Johnny.B.Good (Apr 10, 2013)

knyfeknerd said:


> Were these contracted out to Lamson as well?



According to the description on the site, yes.


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## Justin0505 (Apr 10, 2013)

A lot of people have already touched on this but this is clearly a case of you get what you pay for. 
I'm pretty picky too, so I understand why knowing this is there would bother you, but if you hadn't tried to thin it, you may have gone another 5mo or 5yrs (depending on use and how efficient you are with sharpening) before you noticed it and it may never actually cause a performance problem. 

I'd be really pissed if I found something like that on a $500 knife and would probably see if I could work anything out with the maker (certainly not a full refund if I'd been using the knife for months), but for a $120 knife made out of exotic steel... meh, not so much. I'd say that you could certainly get $120 of use out of this thing. You could use it as a grinding / thinning practice project and burn through a bunch of steel (and service life) all at once, or you could just thin it BTE, and proceed as you would with any other knife. When you finally wear down enough steel to where you're near the "hole" you would have had to be thinning / removing more metal from the rest of the blade by then anyway. 

Still, if you just can't stand the thought of it / knowing that it's there and want to cut your losses, you could dump it on BST at a discounted price and a link to this thread and I'm sure someone (maybe me depending on price)would take it off your hands.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 10, 2013)

James said:


> It's the $120 m390 iteration of the artifex, but not a big difference. The wavey grind before the tip is actually caused by an uneven undergrind about 3" long. When placed flat on a surface, the knife does not stay flat, rather it has a rather interesting see-saw effect.
> 
> I figure, worst comes to worst, I'll grind away. That wouldn't be too bad I guess, and heck, I'll learn some things. Thanks for all of the responses and suggestions. I love this forum




You're thinning an M390 knife with stones? :rofl2:

So the rippled section in the edge behind the tip is actually a flat spot in the profile? Now this is potentially bad news when seen combined with an over grind from the blade face, you may already have a hole showing here.


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## andygraybeal (Apr 10, 2013)

As a spectator, thank you for this thread! I'm still learning and this is great. My Hiromoto AS has exactly the same looking divot, in generally the same location ... like what Dave already mentioned about Hiromoto AS knives. I didn't know it was called an overgrind, if I'm understanding correctly.


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## franzb69 (Apr 11, 2013)

I hope this doesn't mess up the Lefty / Pierre / Lamson collab....


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## NO ChoP! (Apr 11, 2013)

Marko, I think the sf your thinking of is fowler maybe. I think he's referring to the renowned house sharpener Mr. Knifefanatic himself...


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## knyfeknerd (Apr 11, 2013)

NO ChoP! said:


> I think he's referring to the renowned house sharpener Mr. Knifefanatic himself...



Hey that guy "makes" knives now too!
I'm ready for a review!


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## olpappy (Apr 11, 2013)

I don't think you have the right to expect anything from the vendor because when you tried to "fix" it and found out you couldn't bascially you started something that you can't finish.

When you buy an item you should inspect it right away. Leaving it in the box for 5 months you missed the boat on being able to complain about it and return it. If you can get an M390 knife at a relative bargain price you should be willing to live with some imperfections. If you find imperfections that you cannot live with you should return it, assuming of course that you inspected the knife when you received it. Otherwise you could just live with it as is, find someone to refinish it for you at a price you can live with, or sell it to someone else who wants to fix it up.


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## mhlee (Apr 11, 2013)

olpappy said:


> If you can get an M390 knife at a relative bargain price you should be willing to live with some imperfections.



Inexpensive materials? Yes. Imperfections? No. 

That's like saying that because you're buying a less expensive car, you should be willing to live with a car that has some imperfections or, rather, defects.  Even if I'm buying something less expensive, I expect it to work and not have any imperfections or defects. I wouldn't expect a less expensive car to have leather, nice wood, or a high end stereo system, but I expect it to be well made, albeit with some less expensive materials, to work as intended, as long as expected of other products, without any "imperfections" or defects. This overgrind is a defect. 

I do sympathize with the OP, not just because of who he purchased the knife from, but because I still, to this day, find it difficult to notice some overgrinds. I can see moderate to serious overgrinds, but smaller ones require a level of knowledge and concentration and observation that I have yet to master.


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## olpappy (Apr 11, 2013)

So you expect perfection? Nothing is perfect. Perfection is an ideal that knifemakers try to achieve but never can be achieved. If you expect perfection, I suggest you make some knives yourself and see how that goes for you. When you can grind a knife blade perfectly without overgrinds, only then should you make them available to consumers.

From the picture that was posted I can't tell if there was any imperfection to begin with, the original finish is no longer visible. All I can see is abrasions from stones. No knife has a perfectly flat face unless it is a custom, any knife made with grinding wheels will have irregularities show up if you start rubbing the face of it on stones. This is not a Doi yanagi we're talking about. Sharpening stones are made for sharpening, not for flattening gyutos. You CAN flatten the face of your gyuto and polish it, I have done it. OP, your knife will be fine, start flattening with 150 grit water stone, once that is completely flat then 220, 320, 400, 600, 1000, 2000, 4000, 6K, 8K, 10K etc. You can do it in about 2 weeks of grinding by hand. I have done it myself.


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## panda (Apr 11, 2013)

call me insensitive but i find it comical someone would complain about a purchase 5 months after the fact... i still have no clue what the frig an over/undergrind is. does it affect performance? it's not even near the edge so why fuss about it in the first place.


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## stevenStefano (Apr 11, 2013)

I think overgrinds go way beyond imperfections. If you think it isn't gonna affect performance for a while then it ain't so bad. I'd email the vendor and explain the situation very politely and see what happens, it wouldn't do any harm anyway. Detecting overgrinds is tricky. It isn't like you're gonna thin a knife OOTB and it can be tricky to see them by eye


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## labor of love (Apr 11, 2013)

panda said:


> call me insensitive but i find it comical someone would complain about a purchase 5 months after the fact... i still have no clue what the frig an over/undergrind is. does it affect performance? it's not even near the edge so why fuss about it in the first place.



I think if you reread some of the earlier posts you will find that the OP never complained about purchasing this knife. He also admitted that it was unwise to wait 5 monthes before inspecting the knife. Just because its not near the edge doesnt mean it will affect performance in its current state. Since I havent used the knife in question myself I really cant comment about its performance. But there are numerous performance setbacks that could potientally arise from divots of this nature.


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## James (Apr 11, 2013)

Actually, the factory finish is still visible on the overground sections with some errant scratches from stone mud (can't really tell due to my camera skills). Mark said to call him, so I'll do that tomorrow. Anyways, I think Dave stated the issue best - holes in the edge later on.

Olpappy, the knife was quite far from evenly ground, and admittedly, I expected a bit better, even at the price point. I'll see if I can polish it up and take a picture to show you guys.

Steven, YEP. I agree. I briefly inspected the knife beforehand and found no issue, but they popped up when I put it to the stones.


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## mhlee (Apr 11, 2013)

olpappy said:


> So you expect perfection? Nothing is perfect. Perfection is an ideal that knifemakers try to achieve but never can be achieved. If you expect perfection, I suggest you make some knives yourself and see how that goes for you. When you can grind a knife blade perfectly without overgrinds, only then should you make them available to consumers.
> 
> From the picture that was posted I can't tell if there was any imperfection to begin with, the original finish is no longer visible. All I can see is abrasions from stones. No knife has a perfectly flat face unless it is a custom, any knife made with grinding wheels will have irregularities show up if you start rubbing the face of it on stones. This is not a Doi yanagi we're talking about. Sharpening stones are made for sharpening, not for flattening gyutos. You CAN flatten the face of your gyuto and polish it, I have done it. OP, your knife will be fine, start flattening with 150 grit water stone, once that is completely flat then 220, 320, 400, 600, 1000, 2000, 4000, 6K, 8K, 10K etc. You can do it in about 2 weeks of grinding by hand. I have done it myself.



Wow. You're kind of an ass. I didn't say I expect perfection nor did I say I was a maker or was going to do anything of the sort. Maybe my comments hit a little too close to home because you drive a POS. I don't know, but you completely misunderstood my post. 

Whatever the reason, one should still be able to expect a high level of quality regardless of price. That's what I wrote - I didn't say anything about perfection. 

Nonetheless, except for you and a few others, it seems that most people who have seen this objectively think that this is not a trivial defect. And, whether it's knives, food, giving legal advice, or whatever, the purchaser has a right _by law_ to expect a certain standard of quality (not taking into consideration the length of time that has passed or the fact that he tried to thin it). 

My point was, as a purchaser, he has a right to expect a certain level of quality in manufacture that includes receiving a knife that does not have such a large overgrind. (It is quite clear where the original finish is versus the area that he tried to thin. The fact that you cannot tell really hurts whatever argument you are trying to make.) For that matter, I have knives around that price that clearly don't have anything similar to this overgrind. 

By your logic, if you're getting a deal on any knife and it's a good price, you should expect some defects, and this overgrind is an acceptable defect? Right?

Wabi Sabi, bro?


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## olpappy (Apr 11, 2013)

labor of love said:


> But there are numerous performance setbacks that could potientally arise from divots of this nature.



I don't think it would affect performance much. A situation similar to this would be a Granton edge knife with cullens. If they are halfway up the blade,you won't get into the cullens until a substantial portion of the blade is abraded away.

Some new knives actually have cullens extending into the edge area, see these pics:

http://www.granton-knives.co.uk/granton_edge_knives.html

http://www.stoddards.com/granton-10-inch-beef-slicer-w-granton-edge/

These knives were made this way deliberately, not by mistake.


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## olpappy (Apr 11, 2013)

James said:


> I briefly inspected the knife beforehand and found no issue, but they popped up when I put it to the stones.



If you put the sides of a chef knife on stones it will almost never be completely flat, although they may look that way. Usually the small imperfections are blended together in the final stages of the finishing process so that they won't be visible, and make it look better. Same with single bevel knives, a yanagi may look flat but if you put it on stones often the blade road is concave but you can't see it.


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## heirkb (Apr 11, 2013)

If the vendor himself does not have the skill to simply look at the reflections of light to be able to detect over/undergrinds, how can he expect his customers to have the same skill? All the people complaining about the 5 months stuff are acting like the OP bought some toilet paper, wiped his a**, and then tried to return it. What is actually the case is that most people can't spot overgrinds without thinning. Look at mhlee's post, he sure as hell knows more about knives than I do, and even he admits to struggling with just seeing these issues by eyesight alone. That doesn't mean that the product wasn't defective from the beginning. If you put your name on a product and market it as a good product, then be willing to answer to that. Otherwise, tell people you may be selling them crap that has a high likelihood of defects (because you don't know how to spot such defects) as a disclaimer at the beginning.


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## olpappy (Apr 11, 2013)

mhlee said:


> Wow. You're kind of an ass. I didn't say I expect perfection nor did I say I was a maker or was going to do anything of the sort. Maybe my comments hit a little too close to home because you drive a POS. I don't know, but you completely misunderstood my post.
> 
> Whatever the reason, one should still be able to expect a high level of quality regardless of price. That's what I wrote - I didn't say anything about perfection.
> 
> ...



Well, I don't usually like to compare knives to cars, but to me this is sort of like, my car looked OK when it was new but I took a grinder and ground off the paint, underneath I found a low spot on the door that was uneven, now I can't get it to look nice like it did before.


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## labor of love (Apr 11, 2013)

olpappy said:


> Some new knives actually have cullens extending into the edge area, see these pics:
> 
> http://www.granton-knives.co.uk/granton_edge_knives.html
> 
> ...


no...James didnt purchase a granton knife...and FWIW atleast granton has some kind of pattern going on. That divot can most certainly create wedging problems down the road if its deep enough.


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## cwrightthruya (Apr 11, 2013)

olpappy said:


> Well, I don't usually like to compare knives to cars, but to me this is sort of like, my car looked OK when it was new but I took a grinder and ground off the paint, underneath I found a low spot on the door that was uneven, now I can't get it to look nice like it did before.




Actually, It is more like I bought a car that looked ok new. Took some of the paint off and found that the door was dented from the factory and instead of replacing it like they should have, they just took a pound of bondo and made it look like nothing was there. Thats terrible QC, and quite dishonest.


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## chinacats (Apr 11, 2013)

cwrightthruya said:


> Actually, It is more like I bought a car that looked ok new. Took some of the paint off and found that the door was dented from the factory and instead of replacing it like they should have, they just took a pound of bondo and made it look like nothing was there. Thats terrible QC, and quite dishonest.



+1

I think this says it all. I also think that part of the price you pay for any item includes the QC that should be done before the product gets to the customer...*for this I blame the manufacturer and the retailer*...neither should be proud of selling a piece of crap like that. Both should be willing to stand behind the product, no matter who has the legal responsibility.


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## capid1 (Apr 11, 2013)

It is interesting MR did not replace your knife. I had an incident with my M390 Artifex and replaced it without question. I'm interested in what you wrote to him to get a "no" response. Attitude and perception can go a long way.

Pics of my incident. I was hand sanding with diamond pads and pop... (yes I had the blade on the board and about 5lbs of pressure on the handle to keep it steady)


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## Squilliam (Apr 11, 2013)

That blade snap is quite interesting! It does look like it had a crack for quite some time, where it had rusted though. Could you see the crack before it broke?

Someone said the overgrind could create wedging. Could you explain this to me? I can't see how making a knife too thin in one spot would cause it to wedge. And people saying to throw it out? That doesn't make sense at all.


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## capid1 (Apr 11, 2013)

It most likely had a hairline crack before HT. I didn't see or feel the crack before thinning it.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 11, 2013)

How hard do they make these knives?


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## labor of love (Apr 11, 2013)

Squilliam said:


> Someone said the overgrind could create wedging. Could you explain this to me? I can't see how making a knife too thin in one spot would cause it to wedge. And people saying to throw it out? That doesn't make sense at all.


wasnt talking about the overgrind. the divot above the edge if deep enough could cause problems with wedging.


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## capid1 (Apr 11, 2013)

My blade tested out at 61rc so give or take .5


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## mkmk (Apr 11, 2013)

heirkb said:


> If the vendor himself does not have the skill to simply look at the reflections of light to be able to detect over/undergrinds, how can he expect his customers to have the same skill? All the people complaining about the 5 months stuff are acting like the OP bought some toilet paper, wiped his a**, and then tried to return it. What is actually the case is that most people can't spot overgrinds without thinning. Look at mhlee's post, he sure as hell knows more about knives than I do, and even he admits to struggling with just seeing these issues by eyesight alone. That doesn't mean that the product wasn't defective from the beginning. If you put your name on a product and market it as a good product, then be willing to answer to that. Otherwise, tell people you may be selling them crap that has a high likelihood of defects (because you don't know how to spot such defects) as a disclaimer at the beginning.



Oh, good lord. 

The "problem" was unnoticeable for five months, but somehow it's now a terrible defect? Really?

If this knife is truly going to encounter dropouts in the edge with subsequent sharpening (at which point it will lose at least a quarter inch of profile, if not more, while the area above it will be significantly thinned, too), then I guess you could ask for an exchange/refund. So far, I haven't seen anything yet to justify such a thing, other than the fact that a bunch of you dislike the vendor, and thus are predisposed to judge the product. Take any ten ~$100 knives from one of the preferred vendors here -- perhaps Hiromotos, Tojiros, etc. -- run them flat against a coarse stone, and I'll bet you a nickel at least half of them will show spots like those in the OP's pics. 

Before you accuse me of being a shill, note that Dave said the same thing on page 2.

And what person encounters a problem with wedging an inch from the tip?

Silliness.

If you've got champagne tastes, great -- but don't complain about the PBR (or, to dial it back, the IPA).


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## chinacats (Apr 11, 2013)

I don't seem to have any such issues on victorinox...oh yeah, I don't buy them from ****.


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## labor of love (Apr 11, 2013)

mkmk said:


> Take any ten <$100 knives from one of the preferred vendors here -- perhaps Hiromotos, Tojiros, etc. -- run them flat against a coarse stone, and I'll bet you a nickel at least half of them will show spots like those in the OP's pics.
> 
> .


i call BS on this hypothetical. If thats the case, why arent their more threads about stuff like this? where are all the post for screwed up hiromotos, carbonexts and tojiros? not that they dont have their factory flaws, but to say half of them will have defects like this knife? BS


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## mkmk (Apr 11, 2013)

Well, several people have said they've seen similar things on their own knives, and Dave -- whose opinion is gospel here -- said it's common. If you don't believe me -- believe him:



Dave Martell said:


> I'm always in for taking a stab at Richmond but in this case I'm not going to be able to. I've seen this type of thing on a whole slew of Japanese knives so I'm not going to be able to point the finger as this being an issue that is only seen on a Richmond knife. Yes it's crappy but not at all uncommon, just ask anyone who's ever laid a knife down on a flat stone and they'll tell you a story.




So much handwringing.


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## cwrightthruya (Apr 11, 2013)

He also said this was worse than common...if I am not mistaken.


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## labor of love (Apr 11, 2013)

no one is disputing that it doesnt happen. but to say divits this large are on HALF of all hiromotos, tojiros etc etc etc is reaching.


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## James (Apr 11, 2013)

Mkmk, I did not use the knife during the period and left it in the box after initial inspection (in which I failed to see the flaw). 

Capid1 - WOW, your knife had a far more serious problem than mine. I'll let you know how this one is handled. Hoping for the best 

It seems like this thread is getting a bit heated, so I'm just going to ask everyone to cool it down a bit. I'll report back tomorrow with good news hopefully


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## Dave Martell (Apr 11, 2013)

Here's a video from one of Richmond's boys that pretty clearly shows (by using the belt to grind away at the high spots) how these knives are ground. Normally I'd suspect that the person working the grinder might be making things worse but since this guy told me that he's an expert I'll remove him from the equation and let the results speak for themselves. 

The good stuff starts @ around 5:00 and @ 6:40 on you can see the lows and highs showing up. 


[video=youtube;dpZjPUAffZI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpZjPUAffZI[/video]


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## panda (Apr 11, 2013)

lol, i love the 'whoops, gonna pretend you didn't see that' moment in the vid.


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## mkmk (Apr 11, 2013)

Definitely not crazy about that finger.


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## knyfeknerd (Apr 12, 2013)

Ummm Finger Platen................
..........Awesome.


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## franzb69 (Apr 12, 2013)

hope your knife gets replaced james


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## NO ChoP! (Apr 12, 2013)

Ok, most knives in this price range need a little work. I would expect that. Rounding, thinning flattening, etc... For the average purchaser many of these nuances would go unnoticed; for most of us, any Artifex would need some serious tuning. That being said, a steel known for being extremely wear resistant, even experimental, sounds like a terrible idea. Right?


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## Benuser (Apr 12, 2013)

If you want to know what has to be done to transform an Artifex into a decent blade:

http://www.This Site Not Allowed Hereforum.com/post17150.html#p


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## chinacats (Apr 12, 2013)

Benuser said:


> If you want to know what has to be done to transform an Artifex into a decent blade:
> 
> http://www.This Site Not Allowed Hereforum.com/post17150.html#p



God, that looks like crap out of the box...good to see Taz is still working w/ knives, a shame that he has crossed over to the dark side though.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 12, 2013)

Benuser said:


> If you want to know what has to be done to transform an Artifex into a decent blade:
> 
> http://www.This Site Not Allowed Hereforum.com/post17150.html#p




This link shows how thick these knives are when new (VERY thick) but it also shows us how not to grind the shoulders off of bevels. To me the idea is to thin and blend without transforming an originally symmetric wedgey knife into an asymmetrical mess. Good idea - poor execution.


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## panda (Apr 12, 2013)

what's wrong with that execution? i've never tried a blade with the shoulders ground off like that before, so curious as to the performance implications here. 

does asymmetric edge on a symmetric grind blade cause steering?


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## Dave Martell (Apr 12, 2013)

panda said:


> what's wrong with that execution? i've never tried a blade with the shoulders ground off like that before, so curious as to the performance implications here.
> 
> does asymmetric edge on a symmetric grind blade cause steering?




It can.


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## Twistington (Apr 12, 2013)

Turning my phone upside-down sitting on the can and being a hair drunk: it looks(atleast to me) that the edge is off center on this, as I understand it 50/50 knife?

(Knife in the link a few posts up)


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## Benuser (Apr 12, 2013)

I must admit in all humility I haven't ever handled an American blade. Is this kind of axe-like grinding considered as normal by American customers?


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## olpappy (Apr 12, 2013)

Link doesn't work, " this site not allowed here " is not a valid URL.


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## Benuser (Apr 12, 2013)

Here is the first pic

http://postimg.org/image/cma6nezdv/


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## Benuser (Apr 12, 2013)

And here the second one

http://postimg.org/image/dgxh1xclz/


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## K-Fed (Apr 12, 2013)

The second pic doesn't look terrible. The first one however. Yikes.


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## stevenStefano (Apr 12, 2013)

In the first pic it looks like one of those Pakistani damascus blades


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## schanop (Apr 12, 2013)

hard work, ehh? That's an understatement.


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## mhlee (Apr 12, 2013)

schanop said:


> hard work, ehh? That's an understatement.



These pictures reminded me of this quote by our dear friend, Ken:

"Some makers who only recently began to know how to cut out a knife from a blank or just get a blank handed to them to sharpen, put a handle on it and grind it down . . . ."

Ken. I'd like to introduce you to the Artifex, made by a certain Mr. Richmond.


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## clayton (Apr 12, 2013)

I wonder if they trained at Wildfire cutlery.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 12, 2013)

mhlee said:


> These pictures reminded me of this quote by our dear friend, Ken:
> 
> "Some makers who only recently began to know how to cut out a knife from a blank or just get a blank handed to them to sharpen, put a handle on it and grind it down . . . ."
> 
> Ken. I'd like to introduce you to the Artifex, made by a certain Mr. Richmond.




:thumbsup:


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## Dave Martell (Apr 12, 2013)

You guys must be bad sharpeners because this guy can get his "Richmond _Artif*L*ex M390 Go..Toe"_ to "zip zap and go through anything"...must be the stones he's using. LOL 

[video=youtube;ddDOSgw4X5Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddDOSgw4X5Y[/video]


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## hutchla (Apr 12, 2013)

If a hole shows up I think MR should take it back, then auction it off as the prototype Richmond Chop.


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## sudsy9977 (Apr 12, 2013)

I've had a ton of knives that could zip thru stuff but have never been able to get one sharp enough to zap thru something....ryan


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## panda (Apr 12, 2013)

squished onion squirting juices all over the board, zippity zap!


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## panda (Apr 12, 2013)

live action artiflex, just absolutely awesome!!


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## pumbaa (Apr 12, 2013)

panda said:


> live action artiflex, just absolutely awesome!!



that guy lives in huntersville, he is actually a pretty cool guy but him and MR are good friends so the bias is strong with this one. and yeah i gave my artifex away to a line cook it was a tragic knife. the aeb-l as knerd can be witness to had rust stains. it felt like rubber sharpening it. glad its gone. i loved it at first since all i knew was shun and such but after getting a hold of hattori and others they are pretty MEH at best.


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## mzer (Apr 12, 2013)

It may just be me, and I have had fine experiences with CKTG for minor things, but n-u-b-a-t-a-m-a sounds like NAMBLA for the 21st century.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 12, 2013)

mzer said:


> .....but n-u-b-a-t-a-m-a sounds like NAMBLA for the 21st century.



NAMBLA-tama :lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:


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## CompE (Apr 15, 2013)

Dave Martell said:


> This link shows how thick these knives are when new (VERY thick) but it also shows us how not to grind the shoulders off of bevels. To me the idea is to thin and blend without transforming an originally symmetric wedgey knife into an asymmetrical mess. Good idea - poor execution.



I've been trying to figure out specifically and objectively what's wrong with the geometry of both the before and after photo's of this Artifex. This is what I see, correct me if I'm wrong:

The original blade is a fairly fat wedge, with both faces completely flat, which then has a bevel at the edge. The edge looks very slightly asymmetrical, maybe 55/45, but not apparently intentionally asymmetrical. When I compare this to my kitchen knives, a kitchen knife shouldn't be symmetrical, and the faces shouldn't be flat. For a righty, the left face should be relatively flat, and the right face should be relatively convex. i.e. A good kitchen knife isn't a wedge with an edge. This knife is. Also, this knife looks very thick at the shoulders of the edge bevel.

Then we move on to the "fixed" blade that had the shoulders ground off. The problem that I see is that they didn't consider what the overall geometry of a knife should be. They focused on grinding off the shoulders and blending it into the faces, as a result it looks like they only hit at most 20% of the knife's faces, but more of it needed to be thinned. They also shouldn't have ground the faces all the way down to the edge. By doing that, they left it so thin that it will never hold an edge. Once they get a bevel on it with enough steel behind it that the edge won't just chip off, they will be left with a slightly shorter knife that has a slightly (if at all) improved geometry. It probably won't be quite as thick behind the edge, but it will get thick quickly.

As far as "an asymmetrical mess" goes, it looks to me that they (unintentionally) left the right face slightly flatter than the left, but still not the ideal geometry for a lefty. I would guess that they intended to make it symmetrical, but didn't get it quite right.

Am I on the right track here, or is there something else that's horribly wrong with this knife that I'm just not seeing?


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## labor of love (Apr 15, 2013)

As far as i can tell, in the first pic there is barely a grind at all to speak of. The knife looks like a blank. Im not sure what you mean when you say the faces shouldn't have been ground all the way to the edge. A thinner edge is a more delicate edge for sure but it shouldn't effect edge retention.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 15, 2013)

CompE said:


> I've been trying to figure out specifically and objectively what's wrong with the geometry of both the before and after photo's of this Artifex. This is what I see, correct me if I'm wrong:
> 
> The original blade is a fairly fat wedge, with both faces completely flat, which then has a bevel at the edge. The edge looks very slightly asymmetrical, maybe 55/45, but not apparently intentionally asymmetrical. When I compare this to my kitchen knives, a kitchen knife shouldn't be symmetrical, and the faces shouldn't be flat. For a righty, the left face should be relatively flat, and the right face should be relatively convex. i.e. A good kitchen knife isn't a wedge with an edge. This knife is. Also, this knife looks very thick at the shoulders of the edge bevel.
> 
> ...




You nailed my thoughts on this and I may have overstated the asymmetrical mess part, maybe it's not a mess, yet I do believe that a knifemaker should be able to do a lot better in thinning while keeping an symmetrical knife symmetrical. Of course it's always possible that the owner of the knife asked for an asymmetrical mess, I have no info on that.


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## CompE (Apr 16, 2013)

labor of love said:


> As far as i can tell, in the first pic there is barely a grind at all to speak of. The knife looks like a blank. Im not sure what you mean when you say the faces shouldn't have been ground all the way to the edge. A thinner edge is a more delicate edge for sure but it shouldn't effect edge retention.



What I meant was that I believe that when thinning the faces of the knife, they should have left some of the original bevel intact, even 1 mm probably would have been enough. The angle of the edge could then be lowered if desired without appreciably reducing the height of the knife. By grinding the faces all the way down to a very acute edge, when an edge bevel is added it will shorten the knife more than it would have if they left just 1mm of the original bevel. Even a 15 degree included angle put on that edge will shorten the height of that blade by 2-3mm at least. Maybe it's just me, but I find the lower the bevel, the larger my micro-bevel needs to be or else the entire micro bevel will chip off.


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## Benuser (Apr 16, 2013)

Excuse my ignorance, but could you explain how building a 15 degree inclusive edge may cost 2-3mm blade width?


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## CompE (Apr 16, 2013)

Benuser said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but could you explain how building a 15 degree inclusive edge may cost 2-3mm blade width?



The knife that we were looking at had an extremely low angle, under 5 degrees I'd say at the very tip, but let's stick with 5 degrees for the estimate. Say that you want to put a 15 degree micro bevel on it, and make the thickness at the point where you transition from 15 to 5 degrees 1mm thick (this is to make the math easier, I know that's thicker than necessary). Imagine that your tip is an isosceles triangle with the top point 5 degrees. tangent (5/2 degrees) ~= .0437, so your triangle with a 1mm base is 1/.0437 * (1mm/2) ~= 11.5mm tall. Now you want to draw a triangle with a 15 degree tip but a 1mm base on top of that. tangent (15/2) degress ~= .131, so that triangle would have a height of only 3.8mm tall. So, to put a 15 degree bevel on a 5 degree wedge with a 1mm base, you'd have to shave 11.5-3.8mm off your knife or ~7.7mm.

The above were just estimates to make the point. Sure, you could make the steel behind the edge less than 0.5mm thick, but maybe that bevel is less than 5 degrees. You'd have to leave only 0.26mm thickness behind the bevel if you want to take off only 2mm from the blade's height. I think that the estimate that 2-3mm will come off that knife isn't way out there. That could have been avoided if, when thinning, just a little bit (1mm or less) of the original 30 degree edge was left of the blade when it was thinned.


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## Benuser (Apr 17, 2013)

Thank you, CompE, after some playing with pencil and calculator I got your point!


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## Squilliam (Apr 17, 2013)

CompE said:


> The knife that we were looking at had an extremely low angle, under 5 degrees I'd say at the very tip, but let's stick with 5 degrees for the estimate. Say that you want to put a 15 degree micro bevel on it, and make the thickness at the point where you transition from 15 to 5 degrees 1mm thick (this is to make the math easier, I know that's thicker than necessary). Imagine that your tip is an isosceles triangle with the top point 5 degrees. tangent (5/2 degrees) ~= .0437, so your triangle with a 1mm base is 1/.0437 * (1mm/2) ~= 11.5mm tall. Now you want to draw a triangle with a 15 degree tip but a 1mm base on top of that. tangent (15/2) degress ~= .131, so that triangle would have a height of only 3.8mm tall. So, to put a 15 degree bevel on a 5 degree wedge with a 1mm base, you'd have to shave 11.5-3.8mm off your knife or ~7.7mm.
> 
> The above were just estimates to make the point. Sure, you could make the steel behind the edge less than 0.5mm thick, but maybe that bevel is less than 5 degrees. You'd have to leave only 0.26mm thickness behind the bevel if you want to take off only 2mm from the blade's height. I think that the estimate that 2-3mm will come off that knife isn't way out there. That could have been avoided if, when thinning, just a little bit (1mm or less) of the original 30 degree edge was left of the blade when it was thinned.



I don't know why you would be wanting anything near a 1mm base. It's fine to grind the face of the knife to a 'zero edge' at 5 degrees per side. In fact I have done that and then made a pass or two at 15 degrees on an 8k stone. The base of that bevel is 20 microns, and is strong enough to cut wood without plastic deformation. There is barely any loss of blade height, maybe 100 microns at the most, which won't be missed.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 17, 2013)

James said:


> Actually, the factory finish is still visible on the overground sections with some errant scratches from stone mud (can't really tell due to my camera skills). Mark said to call him, so I'll do that tomorrow. Anyways, I think Dave stated the issue best - holes in the edge later on.




Did you get a resolve on this James?


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## Marko Tsourkan (Apr 17, 2013)

schanop said:


> hard work, ehh? That's an understatement.



Wow.


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## James (May 27, 2013)

Sorry for leaving you hanging guys. I've been a bit busy making preparations for professional school this fall. Yay for apartment hunting craziness.

The vendor stuck with his original offer (he would pay half the cost of thinning and repair) and made it very clear to me that the issues were caused by me. Apparently these are issues caused by laying the knife flat on the stone and thinning. I'm sure as hell that he did not believe this and was trying to pull a fast one on me. Why would he offer to pay half the cost of repair and thinning otherwise?

Anyways, continuing on, Shaun F offered to do the work for the amount Mark offered him and return shipping. He received the knife last week and shipped it off this weekend so I'm expecting to see it this Friday. Hopefully the issue has been corrected, but my hopes aren't high.

After this, I do fully understand why people have such strong opinions about that vendor. It's left a bad taste in my mouth and I will stick with forum approved vendors from now on. One thing of note is that Shaun F was very responsive, accommodating and willing to help and in general, I found him to be a very pleasant person; I will post pictures of his work when I receive the knife. Until then, I've got my fingers crossed.


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## labor of love (May 27, 2013)

its good to hear youve found some resolution, though it may not be quite what you wanted. so if i understand you correctly, mark payed for half the costs of fixing the blade and you paid for the other half? how much more did you have to pay?


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## James (May 27, 2013)

Sorry, I realize I wasn't clear. Mark paid half the normal cost of the work and I just paid for shipping. Shaun ate the rest of the cost


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## James (Jun 9, 2013)

Pics as promised, although a bit late. IMO, the issue is much less of a problem now. Shaun definitely did a good job working on it given the severity of the issue.





Here's a choil shot to show the combined thinning efforts:


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## franzb69 (Jun 9, 2013)

looks pretty good now


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