# Need more people, can't find them anywhere.



## PalmRoyale (May 18, 2018)

For decades there's been a habit in the Netherlands of looking down on people who work with their hands. Society told kids they need a higher education and an office job because that's when they know they've made it. Technical companies haven't invested in people or offered any kind of training and kept the wages low. Afterall, someone who works with their hands isn't that important. As a result there are now some 65,000 jobs (and the number keeps growing) that these companies can't fill because young people are doing exactly what society told them to do, avoid manual labour. They don't want to be a plumber, carpenter, painter, mechanic or get their hands dirty in any way. This also has an effect on my company. I have loads of work and I need at least 2 more good shipwrights but I can't find them anywhere. Shipyards all over the country have started to hand out steady jobs again so they all have work and nothing to worry about. The shortage of experienced shipwrights is bigger than it's ever been and inflow of young people into this line of work has never been lower. It's gotten so bad that I'm looking for people in other EU countries. It's either that or turn down a lot of work.


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## apicius9 (May 18, 2018)

I see this from the other side. As a teacher at a US university, I often see students who, for whatever reason, think they need to get a college degree. And many of them are totally overwhelmed and just not made for an academic institution. If there were more oportunities for apprenticeships etc., lots of these kids could bloom in work fields that dont require academic degrees. 

That said - and please dont take this personally - I have also seen many cases where employers were surprised that they did not find qualified and experienced personnel when they offered minimum wage and few benefits... 

Stefan


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## PalmRoyale (May 18, 2018)

apicius9 said:


> If there were more oportunities for apprenticeships etc., lots of these kids could bloom in work fields that dont require academic degrees.


I'm actually in the process of forming a working group with 4 other shipyards to make our trade more attractive for kids. We want to do more with the trades school and form a closer working relationship.



> That said - and please dont take this personally - I have also seen many cases where employers were surprised that they did not find qualified and experienced personnel when they offered minimum wage and few benefits...


I'm more than willing to pay a fair wage and benefits are regulated by the law and collective labour agreements. But it doesn't matter I'm willing to pay a fair wage. All the other shipyards across the country do the same. It's either pay up or they move on to someone else. The problem for me right now is that every experienced shipwright has a steady job and they're not going to leave that to come work for me.


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## milkbaby (May 18, 2018)

I agree in the US this is a major issue too. I've worked at at the same university for 21 years now and seen that many of the students are ill prepared to be in college. But everybody keeps going because it's supposedly the way to success. Meanwhile, a friend of mine is willing to hire kids out of high school for $25-30k a year with NO experience, teach them, and then raise them to $70k+ a year after just 2 years on the job if they're good. And they have the potential to double that if moving on, but he has little luck convincing kids to join his company.


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## osakajoe (May 18, 2018)

You see this in Japan with your beloved knife industry. The old business model first destroyed the craftsman (or should say allure for training new craftsman). Middle man were raising prices to earn more money all the while driving prices down on craftsman. 

So of course no one wants to join an industry where you put your heart and soul into something for pennies. This lead to many younger potential craftsman seeking other jobs. 

Now with a resurgent in good quality knives. Youre seeing the results of a generation gap in craftsman. High demand an no supply of good quality knives. So you do see some new young people getting back into it. 

The problem is there little to no one masterful to learn from. And it takes usually more than 3-5 years before someone does any real good work. Very few people want to apprentice this long on the minimal wages most offer. 

When it comes to Japan and knife craftsman you have the business model, lack of incentives, lack of promoting, lack of educators, and lack of proper wages that almost killed of the craft (well serious reduced the numbers from what they use to be).


Commenting on US, I feel you will start seeing a shift from people feeling they need to go to a 4 year university. The crippling debt most students put themselves into is making headlines and starting to see more vocational and hand skilled jobs with good salaries being promoted.


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## PalmRoyale (May 18, 2018)

Dutch society as a whole has convinced kids they have to be a manager in order to be successful. Doesn't even matter what kind of manager as long as it's a managing position. They can earn a good living as a shipwright, have lots of freedom once they have experience, they get to do something different every day and they even stay in shape because it's a very physical job. But it's manual labour so it's beneath them. This forces me to look in other EU countries and then I have to deal with family and friends who tell me Dutch people should come first. Well, maybe don't be so short sighted and start teaching your kids there's nothing wrong with working with your hands.


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## S-Line (May 18, 2018)

I've been having that issue even in the restaurant industry. So many want to work front of house where less physical labor is involved. Chefs, especially sushi chefs are now so hard to find... to the point where I'm offering 52k - 60k/yr just to lure some talent.

I have high school kids come in, with no work experience what so ever asking $11/hr to wash dishes. What's sad is I actually hired the kid since I needed some help desperately at that point and you know what he said to me? He quit after 1 shift and said he can't be doing this, it's too much work for only $11/hr. That he's got a full life ahead of him, he's going have his own clothing line and his own music label one day. So dishwashing is below him. That was a good laugh.


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## OliverNuther (May 19, 2018)

Ive had exactly the same experience in Australia. I used to work for a labour hire company. We provided labourers, mostly unskilled, to industry. You didnt need any experience; just a good attitude and a strong back and we would employ you. But younger applicants, school leavers in particular, would turn up their noses at being asked to get their hands dirty. They all wanted to start midway up the food chain somewhere despite having no experience. The concept of starting at the bottom and working your way up was completely foreign to them.


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## PalmRoyale (May 19, 2018)

Some trades schools over here have seen the number of students cut in half during the past 10 years and some even had to scrap courses completely. The school my apprentice goes to is dealing with the same thing. 10-15 years ago there still were a good number of kids who wanted to become a shipwright, classes were full for the most part each year but the numbers have dropped drastically. She's in a class of 12 people while 10 years ago it would have been at least double that. To make matters worse a lot of old timers will retire in the next couple of years and there just isn't enough new inflow to replace them. The shortage will only rise and we'll have no other choice but to look in Eastern European countries. Young people over there will jump at the chance to have a good job with me.


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## milkbaby (May 20, 2018)

On the plus side, the supply versus demand may make the pay for some of these jobs rise.


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## PalmRoyale (May 20, 2018)

Not really a plus for me as an employer :lol2:


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## Keith Sinclair (May 20, 2018)

Like to watch NHK World. There are many talented crafts persons in Japan making different items in a traditional way. Many are seniors still working while the kids go to the cities to work. Saw this show about women Abalone divers in their 60's & 70's still free diving at that age.

Could draw well from small kid time. Worked fishing boats, airbrushed surfboards, ended up working nights in kitchens. Ice carving business grew from word of mouth as a second job kept me busy over 30 yrs. Always worked with my hands. Now retired, teach, do yardwork (3 yards), some babysitting nieces kids, oil painting mainly to get creative juices going. Try to stay busy

Younger brother talented with music, guitar, piano, tenor sax. He pays the bills as an electrician. Plays gigs with a band on the week ends.


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## aaamax (May 20, 2018)

an interesting slant to this topic is what I have seen here in Sweden.
As a foreigner to this land I am constantly taken aback by some of the hiring practices here. Mainly, the paper that shows you have any given education is MUCH more valued than experience. The cook is my favorite example. I'm old, I have worked in and out of restaurants across the globe since I was 15 holding just about every position. A kid, fresh out of culinary school with the ink still not dry on his diploma is much more attractive to employers. I don't want to denigrate the free schooling afforded students in this country, but lets just say that what is called culinary school is far, far, far, from what most of us would consider as a comprehensive education in how to be a bloody cook... lol. But damn if they don't know all about vegan, lactose intolerance, gluten free... but hygiene, not, Lol! Don't cut bread near your station is all the buzz, but handle chicken and then go direct to veg... I have worked with several of these graduates and DAMN, if I don't get a good laugh on a regular basis... Ouch.
Scary, dangerous, hilarious all at the same time.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 20, 2018)

Why don't you offer them a job profile where they can both craft and manage 50/50? You will need supervisors skilled in the craft anyway once you get big enough to have a mix of variedly qualified personnel at work ... build on that 

It tends to be wise to find any excuse to put a soldering iron or hacksaw into an IT trainee's hands ... so it might be wise to do it the other way around too


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## PalmRoyale (May 21, 2018)

If I can find 2 more shipwrights there will be 10 of us. I'm not growing any larger than that (once employed 23 people, never doing it again) so I won't need multiple supervisors. There's me and I'm training my apprentice who will take over the company in the future.


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## buffhr (May 25, 2018)

It is indeed a sad situation for manual labor, havent really looked into it since I have moved to Europe, however in the part of Canada I was you could make a decent living with manual labor in some trades, however in plenty of them you end up having to work 50-60+hrs a week and for some people that is just too much. I spent 18 months making curved hardwood stairs and tbh I would never do it again for under 50k a year (was making like 38k), long hrs, very physical work, stressful with deadlines...

After that I moved into the IT world and never looked back at manual labor, as a job, I still do everything I am legally allowed to do around the house and stuff and for me it is "soothing" and rewarding. I would much rather be "brain dead" when coming home at night but still having energy to play with my kids, then come home physically dead tired for usually less money.

Granted I am not specialized in any trade (and salaries vary tons country to country so hard to gauge), however personally I feel that labot work is underpayed for the work you need to do and the toll alot of it takes on your body, while someone could be a manager in a temperature controlled building.

Not sure how it is in NL but here in Finland specializing in some trades is as long as taking a bachelors...


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## erickso1 (May 25, 2018)

An excavation company in Austin, TX has recognized the need for skilled labor and has started a summer camp for kids 13 - 15 to explore construction, excavation, etc. It might not work for you in your situation, but I thought it was a creative idea to try to spur more entrants into their labor force. You can read about it here.

http://www.kxan.com/news/local-news/why-new-camp-creators-wants-your-teen-to-consider-construction-jobs/1196169969


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## PalmRoyale (May 25, 2018)

buffhr said:


> Not sure how it is in NL but here in Finland specializing in some trades is as long as taking a bachelors...



It takes at least 10 years to gain enough work experience so that you can say you're an all-round shipwright.



erickso1 said:


> An excavation company in Austin, TX has recognized the need for skilled labor and has started a summer camp for kids 13 - 15



I'm actually in the process of setting up something similar together with 4 other shipyards. We want to offer summer jobs to kids and give them some training so they can see what this work is all about.


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## buffhr (May 25, 2018)

PalmRoyale said:


> It takes at least 10 years to gain enough work experience so that you can say you're an all-round shipwright.



Yea not surprised about that at all, it's a very intricate and multi faceted job. In 10 years of higher education most people will end up with a fairly higher end salary, the only difference is that in 1 field you get to start about 5-7 years earlier and work your way up to it.

Hope you can attract talented and dedicated kids to replenish some talent!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 25, 2018)

@PalmRoyale find the others something to supervise then - just so they can be confident that they will have it in their CV in case they want to step away from all-manual labour career later.


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## PalmRoyale (May 26, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> find the others something to supervise then



In a company with 8 people? And how well do you think that's going to work?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (May 27, 2018)

Doesn't have to.


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## dizzyingheights (May 27, 2018)

There's not really an accredidation body for culinary schools, is there? Most of the good chefs i've worked with have neved gone to much school, the culinary school chefs tended to be full of ****. 

I'm having a lot of trouble finding another apprentice chef. Fifteen months ago I staged for a few days and was offered $250/week to do this job, and it was 50hrs/week on paper, but no one does less than 60, chef is at just under 90, I work at least 70, but I started as a live-in, up to 100+ hrs a week i was required to be at the restraunt (not working the whole time, but i still had to be there). I knew it was going to be hard and that all the other chefs would give me a ton of ****, and all the **** work, and I was going to spend all of my first few paychecks just to get the equipment I needed. I'm making 450$/week plus tips, still 70+ hours a week, but i have no tuition debt, everything i have i earned with my own hands, my crew are all great reliable dudes, and i make great product. I can't imagine having the same pride and job satisfaction anywhere else. I will be promoted and my salary doubled for doing almost the same work--- if only i can find someone else to become an apprentice. I've been ready and looking for months already and i've only had three candidates so far.


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## Juztian (Jun 2, 2018)

I'm a cabinetmaker, this is THE problem in Denmark right now, society said "you need to get a higher education" and companies wouldn't take apprentices only wanted educated craftsmen, but now we have a worker shortage and now companies can't get any apprentices because they don't want to do manual labor, this with combined with new laws that forces companies that uses manual labor to take a number of apprentices depending on the number of educated craftsmen they employ or else they face fines, the companies are offering people "on the street" to get into a trade school where there is a 20 week introduction while the companies pay them salary so that they are insured of getting apprentices when they are done, because there aren't enough who "freely" go to a trade school. also the salaries are insane for carpenters 35 usd an hour for a freshly minted carpenter.


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## Juztian (Jun 2, 2018)

dizzyingheights said:


> There's not really an accredidation body for culinary schools, is there? Most of the good chefs i've worked with have neved gone to much school, the culinary school chefs tended to be full of ****.



There is definitely a culinary accreditation body in Denmark at least but i don't know if it is as strict as for craftsmen, the union(3F) will go apesh*t if you use uneducated workers or foreign helpers (polish, romanians etc.). you can't get apprentices if there isn't a educated craftsman in the company who will oversee the apprentices education.


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## PalmRoyale (Jun 2, 2018)

Juztian said:


> I'm a cabinetmaker, this is THE problem in Denmark right now, society said "you need to get a higher education" and companies wouldn't take apprentices only wanted educated craftsmen


This is exactly the problem here as well. From north to south and east to west, shipyards and furniture makers all over the country have an extremely tough time finding young people who want to get into wood working. I've been warning this would happen since the early 2000's but none of them wanted to listen to me. They all said it will be okay, we will still be able to find people. And now look where we are. It's the same with plumbers, electricians, automotive mechanics, painters, you name it. If it involves manual labour, there's a big shortage of people. But I'm working on something just for me and if it all goes according to plan I won't have to worry about finding good employees.


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