# lets have a new razor thread.



## inferno

i'm thinking about trying shaving with razors again. so i dusted off the old iwasaki swedish steel kamisori and sharpened it up. and now its sharp as fuk. just like it was before i sharpened it  

difference being that i sharpened it on the shapton pro12k and also the SS 12k, instead of the spyderco UF.

i noticed both the pro12k and the SS 12k was extremely "grabby" feeling. didn't like it one bit i can tell you that. didn't slide good at all on those stones.

i think the pro12k was maybe a bit faster but not as sharp result as the SS 12k. the 12k pro is still a bit hazy if you look at it but the SS 12k was true mirror. and it got insanely/truly scary sharp. need to watch out now i guess.

Both stones seems to clog up visually very fast but they still continue to cut well i noticed.

my iwasaki is polished and not black anymore. because i like polished steel.

----------------------------

so what do you use when shaving and what stones do you have?


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## Matus

I must be one of the least experienced razor honers around here, so do not take what I say too seriously.

I have started shaving with a straight razor a few months ago. My honing procedure is as follows:


Shapton Pro 1k - only if the razor needs some repair (chips or edge rust)
Naniwa SS 5k (on a plastic base) - I normally start on this stone. I use the smallest finest (green) DMT diamond plate to raise a little slurry. I make sure the stone is under running water for 2-3 minutes (because its form changes slightly between dry and wet) and only then I check the flatness with Atoma 1200 (400 would make more sense, but I am yet to buy one). I hone on this stone until I get a ‘perfect’ 5k edge. 
Natural stone with tomo nagura. I had the best results so far with a little Nakayama HS62 from Watanabe, but I am experimenting with different stones. The best tomo naguras so far have been from uchigumori. I have not tried Asano naguras yet. I do start with a bit slurry and thin it on several steps.
I strop with 100 strokes on a linen and 40 on a lether strop made by Torolf of Scrupleworks.
With the above I get fairly good edge on the Japanese Starlet razor (the only I use at the moment) which I got from @Slipstenar. He also taught me most that I know about honing and shaving. I hope he will share his knowledge here (he also has some very helpful videos on YT).

@Mr.Magnus is another very experienced straight razor honer and user.

I also got a simple optical 100x microscope (about 130€ - metal and glass construction, with actual 100x enlargement factor) which is great to check the edge for damage and honing result.


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## PalmRoyale

I have a very nice Boker straight razor. I normally sharpen with a super nice La Veinette coticule. When it needs serious work I whip up a thick slurry with my La Veinette nagura and I slowly dilute the slurry and end on plain water. I don't strop after the La Veinette because it produces an extremely nice comfortable mellow edge. You can't beat a high quality La Veinette for shaving.

The edge is actually a bit too comfortable because my girlfriend often asks me to shave her legs


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## inferno

I can't shave off
my coticules. mine are newly mined from TSS. it feels like i'm tearing out my beard, even with the iwasaki.
the UF not so much. it just slides through.

I made this today at work. its my own thoughts on how i want a shaving knife. i dont want a long tang, but i want a short but grippy tang. its unhardened now. O1. its just rough cut basically. i made it with a die grinder and one of those small cylindrical stones. maybe 150 grit. its all handmade, freehand. and it shows. but this is what i can accomplish at max if i want a deep hollow grind so this is what i get.


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## inferno

PalmRoyale said:


> I have a very nice Boker straight razor. I normally sharpen with a super nice La Veinette coticule. When it needs serious work I whip up a thick slurry with my La Veinette nagura and I slowly dilute the slurry and end on plain water. I don't strop after the La Veinette because it produces an extremely nice comfortable mellow edge. You can't beat a high quality La Veinette for shaving.
> 
> The edge is actually a bit too comfortable because my girlfriend often asks me to shave her legs



for some odd reason i feel like i need one of these. they just look so bad ass. maybe with some gold inlays too.


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## inferno

Matus said:


> I must be one of the least experienced razor honers around here, so do not take what I say too seriously.
> 
> I have started shaving with a straight razor a few months ago. My honing procedure is as follows:
> 
> 
> Shapton Pro 1k - only if the razor needs some repair (chips or edge rust)
> Naniwa SS 5k (on a plastic base) - I normally start on this stone. I use the smallest finest (green) DMT diamond plate to raise a little slurry. I make sure the stone is under running water for 2-3 minutes (because its form changes slightly between dry and wet) and only then I check the flatness with Atoma 1200 (400 would make more sense, but I am yet to buy one). I hone on this stone until I get a ‘perfect’ 5k edge.
> Natural stone with tomo nagura. I had the best results so far with a little Nakayama HS62 from Watanabe, but I am experimenting with different stones. The best tomo naguras so far have been from uchigumori. I have not tried Asano naguras yet. I do start with a bit slurry and thin it on several steps.
> I strop with 100 strokes on a linen and 40 on a lether strop made by Torolf of Scrupleworks.
> With the above I get fairly good edge on the Japanese Starlet razor (the only I use at the moment) which I got from @Slipstenar. He also taught me most that I know about honing and shaving. I hope he will share his knowledge here (he also has some very helpful videos on YT).
> 
> @Mr.Magnus is another very experienced straight razor honer and user.
> 
> I also got a simple optical 100x microscope (about 130€ - metal and glass construction, with actual 100x enlargement factor) which is great to check the edge for damage and honing result.



have you tried "finishing" on synths? i will probably never get a big nat, at least not for razors. i just feel the synths are working. maybe i'm not a nat kinda guy?? will i get banned now for saying this?


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## Matus

inferno said:


> have you tried "finishing" on synths? i will probably never get a big nat, at least not for razors. i just feel the synths are working. maybe i'm not a nat kinda guy?? will i get banned now for saying this?



I actually would like to try it one day, but the SS5k is currently my finest synthetic stone, so I would have to borrow 1-2 finer ones to try it out.


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## inferno

matus i have to confess a thing here. 

i dont strop at all. stropping did not in any way kind or form enhance the sharpness nor comfort off my UF stone so i really dont see any need for it. (even though one can easily look up the positive results of stropping on the https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com blog but now it seems like its login only.) this guy did SEM micrographs of stones and strops and steel and whatever. really good stuff. he also cut up edges to analyse with a focused ion beam lol. 

but yeah i dont strop anything anymore i let the stones speak for themselves.


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## Nemo

IIRC, the Science of Sharp experiments showed that the results of stropping depended on the firmness or 'give' of the strop. Flexible media like leather tended to produce a burr which then took a hundred or more strokes to remove while firm media such as balsa were better at removing the burr in only a few strokes.

I think that there was something special about loaded linnen but I can't remember the details.


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## stringer

I have been playing a little the last few months. I have an antique straight razor and a cheap kamisori. I've tried several different sharpening options.
Coticules, saurat stone, Chinese 12k, Shapton Pro 12k, Hideriyama. I've had my best finishes by doing a synthetic progression to Shapton 12k and then going to a Okudo Suita koppa. Strop on a cheap leather Amazon strop. I usually have a beard so I'm mostly learning by shaving my neck which has been interesting.


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## Xenif

Ok ... i dont have manly viking beards like you folks here ... Im one of those hairless asian breeds .... I only shave like once every few days so I dont look scruffy, I hate having to go buy new blades every time they get dull .... Will I benefit from owning a Kamisori or straight razor, if I already own a wide variety of synths and jnats ?


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## The Edge

I go from an 8k grit stone to a cheapo Chinese 12k stone. Afterwards, I strop on a horse hair strop. Same setup I've used for the last 7 years. Works well, and supposedly I don't have super course hair, so the edges last the year. Granted I've got 2 that I cycle through (Mitsuon and a carbon wing).


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## inferno

stringer said:


> I have been playing a little the last few months. I have an antique straight razor and a cheap kamisori. I've tried several different sharpening options.
> Coticules, saurat stone, Chinese 12k, Shapton Pro 12k, Hideriyama. I've had my best finishes by doing a synthetic progression to Shapton 12k and then going to a Okudo Suita koppa. Strop on a cheap leather Amazon strop. I usually have a beard so I'm mostly learning by shaving my neck which has been interesting.



judging from the razor forums you will get the best results from the 12k pro and then strop, leather only i think. if you cant shave with this you probably cant shave at all.


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## inferno

The Edge said:


> I go from an 8k grit stone to a cheapo Chinese 12k stone. Afterwards, I strop on a horse hair strop. Same setup I've used for the last 7 years. Works well, and supposedly I don't have super course hair, so the edges last the year. Granted I've got 2 that I cycle through (Mitsuon and a carbon wing).



I happen to have that super coarse hair. i need the very sharpest you can get. my almost unused strop is kangaroo. because skippy the bush kangaroo was on tv when i was young. so i go for kangaroo if i can. kangaroo is also the thinnest leather. and i kinda like kangaroos.


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## zizirex

Does anyone ever try Sigma 13K? either for Razor or knife. I'm looking for a stone that is good for finishing razor, hand plane and knives.
Sigma 13K, Shapton Pro 12K, Shapton glass 16k and Morihei Hi 12k is on my radar for those tasks. I'm using Morihei Karasu right now, I can shave with it but it takes a long time to get where it's fine enough for a shave. I have 3 razors, my first Gold Dollar 66, for muscle memory training then Thiers Issard 7/8 and Dovo 5/8 for rescaling project.


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## stringer

inferno said:


> judging from the razor forums you will get the best results from the 12k pro and then strop, leather only i think. if you cant shave with this you probably cant shave at all.



It took me a while to get the razor into shape. It's a 100 year old $10 eBay special. My shapton Glass 8k produced a workable razor but it wasn't comfortable so I bought all the rest of that stuff but have pretty much settled on the shapton pro 12k. But I find the Suita finish a tad more smooth feeling even if not quite as sharp. Same thing with the strop, just makes it feel a little more comfortable. I am planning to do some more work to the strop to condition it's surface.
My sharpening technique is pretty good I think. My shaving technique leaves a lot to be desired. FWIW, I have medium hair in terms of both fine/coarse and thick/thin. I'm skinny, bony, and tall and haven't quite figured out how to navigate all the contours of my long angular neck. Especially in a timely fashion. I've saved practicing for my days off work when I have more time to administer first aid if need be.


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## Matus

About the strop - one of the first things I was warned about: if you buy a ‘ready to shave’ razor, do NOT strop it before first use. There is a very good chance that upon first time stropping one will damage the edge. 

While I do use strop I apply quite some tension by hand, so there is very little sag.

My understanding is that stropping on a linen or other tough cloth is supposed to remove last burr and stropping on a fine leather just ‘aligns’ the edge. That’s one often strops after every shave.

I have even seen a video how to strop on the palm of your hand. I tried, but it does feel dangerous


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## kayman67

There are so many paths leading to a proper shaving edge, that most people might overthink this.
And with today's CBNs or PCDs, even stones are left fairly unimportant. I still use them as I enjoy the feeling. To be honest, most stones will do the job. Sure there are differences, but eventually any will be gone with a strop progression. CBN is for a more comfortable edge, PCD for a more crisp one.

Finishing on Glass 8k (both) requires very very little pressure and plenty of water. Pretty much like using a coti. Should offer really nice sharp edges.


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## The Edge

I like my leather glued to a stiff backing like wood. Different leathers will give you different finishes. If you go with latigo tanned leather, the process removes any of the silicate, meaning you'll have to use another abrasive with the leather. Veg tanned leather will retain its natural silicates with horse hair being the equivalent of 50k, and veg tanned cow being about 40k grit levels. Stropping is all about no pressure. At this point, we're just trying to refine the edge as much as possible to take the bite out of the edge.


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## Slipstenar

Ohh, nice to have a nice thread about this crafty sharpy thing in the face  (Or different areas)

Well, about the stropping thingy, I have used both firm balsa but mostly a hanging strop with a linnen side and a leather side, I nowadays only use the hanging strop.. about 100 strops on the linnen and 20-50 strops on th eleather side.. BUT thats only when you just honed your razor. When its honed you just need to strop it on the leather side for 20-30 strops and then shave.. 

I havent had any issues with a leather strop, just put some tension on it so it doesnt hang freely, otherwise you will destroy your edge in 1 strop up and down the leather.


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## Jville

I've only been straight razor shaving for a little under 2 years. I believe I used some stones once when I first started, because I thought I messed up the edge with my poor technique. In the beginning I could not pass the hht test off of my regular strop. But after I started using cbn, I never had a problem. Ever since I have been maintaining with hanging leather strops, one loaded with .75 cbn and another with .25 cbn. The edges are really nice. My hair seems quite coarse.


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## Slipstenar

Jville said:


> I've only been straight razor shaving for a little under 2 years. I believe I used some stones once when I first started, because I thought I messed up the edge with my poor technique. In the beginning I could not pass the hht test off of my regular strop. But after I started using cbn, I never had a problem. Ever since I have been maintaining with hanging leather strops, one loaded with .75 cbn and another with .25 cbn. The edges are really nice. My hair seems quite coarse.




My opinion on the CBN is that it is crazy good.. BUT you look the smoothness of a natural edge. With CBN you get the sharpness 2 notches higher than with a natural stone.


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## stringer

Here's my razor with my coticule pair.


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## Juan

these are my primary 3, i have a few dozen razors i've picked up while antique shopping. soon i will start restoring them and maybe making some of the wedges hollow ground. i got into straights because multi blade new razors irritate my face no matter what preshave/shave products i used, also my kids love searching for them in old shops and searching for "history" on the razors. we've found some good ones so far, a few bokers, wade & butcher Sheffield's, double ducks, henkles. but i think the smaller brand razors are more interesting.


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## Desert Rat

I have been straight razor shaving and honing for a little over a year now. I started with an old kamisori off the bay and have a hand full of westerns but the kamisori is still by far my favorite. I had a pile of arks and those are what I use but have been playing around with a couple of coticules lately.


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## musicman980

I've been using straights for around 7 years now. After going through a bunch of straights and many different stones and a few strops, the culled herd is now a few big straights, a few coticules, and a shell/linen strop. I highly recommend restoring antique razors and strops if you can, as that has saved me a ton of money. I am currently only using the top right coticule and the strop to keep them all razor sharp - minimalism is best.


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## kayman67

Agree. I don't have any old strops unfortunately, but I did save old razors, regrinds included.


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## musicman980

stringer said:


> Here's my razor with my coticule pair.
> 
> View attachment 60694



Those are some really nice looking coticules.


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## Tim Rowland

This was the last one that I ground. No longer have it but wish that I kept it.
The only straight razor that I currently have is a simple Boker King Cutter,
I have an old horse hide strop I got from a pawn shop years ago and usually use my Shapton glass 10k and finish with .5micron diamond paste on the strop. I am still a complete novice at using a straight razor though and maybe only use it once a week.


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## Matus

Really enjoying this thread 

I have considered a coticule, but got confused by many online posts on razor fora and decided to stay away. I would love to try it though, but they are not cheap and I am not sure how would I pick the right one.

How does one restore an old strop? That sounds interesting. I would have an idea how to restore a razor, but no idea when it come to strops - and how to recognize what can be restored and what not.


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## kayman67

You can't do everything at home, but important parts are doable. I never restored one, but I've done some strop surfaces.

You will know the right coticule for you when you find it. They are notorious for being different and somewhat inconsistently annoying


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## musicman980

Matus said:


> Really enjoying this thread
> 
> I have considered a coticule, but got confused by many online posts on razor fora and decided to stay away. I would love to try it though, but they are not cheap and I am not sure how would I pick the right one.
> 
> How does one restore an old strop? That sounds interesting. I would have an idea how to restore a razor, but no idea when it come to strops - and how to recognize what can be restored and what not.



The least risky option is to feel the vintage strop in your hand before you buy it, rather than getting them on an online auction or something. It's hard to tell how stiff they are, if they are cracked or have too rough tissue damage to be salvaged. If you find a vintage strop that is supple enough that you can bend it around without it cracking, then that leather still has life left in it. Generally avoid deep nicks and cuts, shallow nicks can be sanded out. 

If it has nicks that you just can't stand, sand the surface with sandpaper under a flat block up to 4-600 grit, get quality stuff so grit doesn't shed into the leather and ruin your day  If random scratches appear on your blades finish after stropping, you'll know what you're up against and that is a separate, but manageable issue. The goal is to sand it high enough that the suede nap you develop goes mostly away, and then you can buff it with your hand to burnish the surface so it's nice and shiny. Don't sand too deep! If you can stand the nicks, go straight to some leather cleaner like Moneysworth & Best, and maybe some neatsfoot oil if it needs a little something extra, and you should have a rejuvenated strop. Be conservative with oil! 

As for coticules, they have the most personality of any type of stone I have tried. Really quite a romantic endeavor, coticule honing. The best advice I can give you is learn to use the intricacies of whatever coticule you get, rather than purchasing many stones chasing some ideal. It's been said that the vast majority of coticules can give just about the same finish, you just have to learn how to use it (that's been my experience too). Oh, and don't believe the "old ones are better than new ones" thing.


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## kayman67

Totally agree. 
Still, having many is really nice. If you like honing out of pure pleasure, at least from time to time.


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## musicman980

Oh absolutely lol, I get the coti itch all the time. They are all just gorgeous stones with so much personality that I can see how people want to collect them all. When I find them at antique stores I always buy them, because I know I'll never buy a _bad_ one. Then it's a personal journey, like I'm continuing the legacy of this coticule that someone else loved for such a long time before me.


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## kayman67

You said it really nice!


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## Desert Rat

Here are my two coticules which are new to me, one is not natural.




I just can't quite get there with either one of these stones. I just shaved with an edge off of the natural coticule with my kamisori, it wasn't up to going against the grain on my upper lip and on inspection it wouldn't pass a HHT either. I have kind of got away from the HHT because I don't really need a razor to pass one to get a good shave but I just honed the same razor on a black ark and it's now passing a HHT. Not feeling the coticule love right now.


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## musicman980

You say one of those is man made? Could you please post some pics of the sides of those stones, I'm sure we'd all love to see them. Some coticules can be difficult to get the most out of, for me it's the super hard ones than are tricky. Have you tried the unicot method?


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## Desert Rat

Xenif said:


> Ok ... i dont have manly viking beards like you folks here ... Im one of those hairless asian breeds .... I only shave like once every few days so I dont look scruffy, I hate having to go buy new blades every time they get dull .... Will I benefit from owning a Kamisori or straight razor, if I already own a wide variety of synths and jnats ?


I was in the much the same frame of mind as you last year and I do shave everyday but I have that first nation thing going on with my facial hair. I have no use for a western style big chopper. Try a couple and see what you like.


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## Desert Rat

musicman980 said:


> You say one of those is man made? Could you please post some pics of the sides of those stones, I'm sure we'd all love to see them. Some coticules can be difficult to get the most out of, for me it's the super hard ones than are tricky. Have you tried the unicot method?


Don't know what a unicot method is. Here are the side views. The crack in the man made stone came apart and now it is diamond shaped.


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## kayman67

Do you say "man made" as in not formed in a natural way, but someone put 2 natural layers together?


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## Desert Rat

kayman67 said:


> Do you say "man made" as in not formed in a natural way, but someone put 2 natural layers together?


I don't believe either layer is natural but they are put together with a glue joint.


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## kayman67

I've heard about some old completely articial "coticules" called "black and white". I don't have the experience to tell if it's one or not.


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## musicman980

kayman67 said:


> I've heard about some old completely articial "coticules" called "black and white". I don't have the experience to tell if it's one or not.



Yes the artificial coticules are what I meant by "man made" coticules, and they typically have the appearance of Desert Rat's bottom hone - very thick white and pure part glued to a much thinner black slate part. Their corners often look more rounded to me as well. I always thought they were ground up coti dust and mixed with a synthetic binder, but I could be wrong. 



Desert Rat said:


> Don't know what a unicot method is. Here are the side views. The crack in the man made stone came apart and now it is diamond shaped.



That's a pretty neat little one. The undulating separation line and the darker yellow layer remind me of la dressante au bleu, but it looks vintage so we'll never know for sure. 

The unicot method was created to test a coticule's keenness capability (see what that bad boy can do!). In a nutshell, you get your razor to cut arm hair, and then put one layer of tape on the spine and hone on your coticule a bit to form a microbevel. I've done it and it really works if you're having trouble doing dilucot or any other honing method. 
http://www.coticule.be/unicot.html


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## Luftmensch

Xenif said:


> Ok ... i dont have manly viking beards like you folks here ... Im one of those hairless asian breeds .... I only shave like once every few days so I dont look scruffy, I hate having to go buy new blades every time they get dull .... Will I benefit from owning a Kamisori or straight razor, if I already own a wide variety of synths and jnats ?



Don't leave a brother hanging! Nobody took the ball there... In my view there are two components to straight razor shaving: technique and sharpening/maintenance. 

Shaving technique. On one side, good technique can result in the best shave you are likely to ever experience. On the other side, poor technique and messing around can scar your face. Avoiding disaster is easy enough but your first few shaves are likely to be rough (mine certainly were). Depending on how often you shave, learning will take some time. Aside from safe angles, stretching the skin etc... it is an exploration of what works for you (steam your face before hand, cold water? hot water?).

Sharpening/maintenance. Sharpening a razor to a point of sufficiency can be easier than kitchen knives (the hollow in the razor acts as a built-in angle guide). On the other hand, chasing that sharpness dragon can be harder - the requirements are higher. Normally I would advise people who are curious about straight razors to forget about it and consider using a safety razor (double edged) _unless_ they are willing to learn how to sharpen/maintain their own straight razor (I'll get to that later). Safety razors offer a similar experience with practically no maintenance burden.

For those who are still keen? Start with a trusted straight razor brand and have it sharpened/maintained by somebody who knows what they are doing. Alternatively, consider starting with disposable straight razors. Either scenario will allow them to focus on their straight razor technique while knowing the blade is serviceable. After gaining confidence in shaving technique, then move on to sharpening. Sharpening whilst learning to shave is a lot of free variables to debug.

To your question: will you benefit? The benefits to straight razor shaving are few. Closest shave ever? Meh. Better for sensitive skin? Hmmm... maybe? More sustainable? I guess... (is that really why you want to do this). Save money? Once you go down that hole it'll take you a long time to make any savings. 

What _are_ the benefits? The primary benefit, in my opinion, is that straight razors can't clog. They can cut through hair that would clog a cartridge or safety razor. The other slight benefit is that they are good at shaving straight lines in a beard. Depending on what you want out of the situation these considerations might be rather inconsequential!

In the 21st century, straight razor shaving is an aesthetic (or a process/ritual). It is not necessary. There are easier routes to the same outcome. This is why I don't recommend it unless a person is willing to sharpen/maintain their own razor in the long run - it is an integral part of the process. You can't use a straight razor without maintaining it! Whilst I have confidence you would be up to the task, the only benefit you are likely to receive is the satisfaction of learning something new and 'badass'.

If you want to give up cartridge razors... give safety razors some thought!


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## Luftmensch

Apologies @Desert Rat, you did provide a reply (take the ball, so to speak)!


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## musicman980

Since it's not really possible for cartridge or safety razors to change the blade's angle against the skin (unless you have an adjustable safety razor), a straight razor shave can technically be more comfortable by controlling that angle to suit your needs. Not to mention you have complete control over what finish you put on your edge. A straight razor shave is a completely customizable experience, that is if you're willing to put in the time and effort to learn the skill. 

If you want to use way less plastic, lower the costs by likely substantial margins, retain some level of customizability in the type of edge you use, and NOT learn a skill that's all that different from cartridge shaving, pick up a safety razor and experiment with different blades. You'll still be "cool", just not as cool


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## inferno

Luftmensch said:


> Don't leave a brother hanging! Nobody took the ball there... In my view there are two components to straight razor shaving: technique and sharpening/maintenance.
> 
> Shaving technique. On one side, good technique can result in the best shave you are likely to ever experience. On the other side, poor technique and messing around can scar your face. Avoiding disaster is easy enough but your first few shaves are likely to be rough (mine certainly were). Depending on how often you shave, learning will take some time. Aside from safe angles, stretching the skin etc... it is an exploration of what works for you (steam your face before hand, cold water? hot water?).
> 
> Sharpening/maintenance. Sharpening a razor to a point of sufficiency can be easier than kitchen knives (the hollow in the razor acts as a built-in angle guide). On the other hand, chasing that sharpness dragon can be harder - the requirements are higher. Normally I would advise people who are curious about straight razors to forget about it and consider using a safety razor (double edged) _unless_ they are willing to learn how to sharpen/maintain their own straight razor (I'll get to that later). Safety razors offer a similar experience with practically no maintenance burden.
> 
> For those who are still keen? Start with a trusted straight razor brand and have it sharpened/maintained by somebody who knows what they are doing. Alternatively, consider starting with disposable straight razors. Either scenario will allow them to focus on their straight razor technique while knowing the blade is serviceable. After gaining confidence in shaving technique, then move on to sharpening. Sharpening whilst learning to shave is a lot of free variables to debug.
> 
> To your question: will you benefit? The benefits to straight razor shaving are few. Closest shave ever? Meh. Better for sensitive skin? Hmmm... maybe? More sustainable? I guess... (is that really why you want to do this). Save money? Once you go down that hole it'll take you a long time to make any savings.
> 
> What _are_ the benefits? The primary benefit, in my opinion, is that straight razors can't clog. They can cut through hair that would clog a cartridge or safety razor. The other slight benefit is that they are good at shaving straight lines in a beard. Depending on what you want out of the situation these considerations might be rather inconsequential!
> 
> In the 21st century, straight razor shaving is an aesthetic (or a process/ritual). It is not necessary. There are easier routes to the same outcome. This is why I don't recommend it unless a person is willing to sharpen/maintain their own razor in the long run - it is an integral part of the process. You can't use a straight razor without maintaining it! Whilst I have confidence you would be up to the task, the only benefit you are likely to receive is the satisfaction of learning something new and 'badass'.
> 
> If you want to give up cartridge razors... give safety razors some thought!




hehe i know that. personally i can shave about 10-15x faster with a mach3 razor than a straight of any type. no need to warm the skin up and and similar.

I think the disposable blade makes sense. then you simply remove one factor from the equation. and i think feather blades and "holders" is some of the sharpest that one will ever find. can't shave with that? then you can't shave. thats it.

for me though its not about efficiency. since this is so highly counter efficient and counter productive its almost insane. but its fun. its a hobby.

I actually can get a much "deeper" shave of a straight compared to the mach3s.


----------



## musicman980

No razor can glide without a good soap. What are you guys using? 

The Fat with a pure badger


----------



## podzap

inferno said:


> I actually can get a much "deeper" shave of a straight compared to the mach3s.



Sure because a straight razor also removes the outermost layers of skin from your face. I don't mess with straights myself, but I used to love to get a shave with a straight at the barber shop back in the day before HIV caused it to become illegal in most places.

Last time I had a shave with a straight razor was back in 2009 on a Greek island from a 98 year old Greek barber who was blind. No kidding. I watched him do somebody else first - he shaved in tiny little micro strokes and basically took almost an hour to do it. He was so damned old that he could only manage to serve 2 customers per day!


----------



## musicman980

podzap said:


> Sure because a straight razor also removes the outermost layers of skin from your face.



 Hey now! Not if you use a shaving soap and angle control, and not take 4 hours to do one customer haha. Dried lather = ouch


----------



## Matus

I am just starting to use soaps from Soap Commander and love that stuff!


----------



## Matus

My advice to anyone starting with straight razors - find an experienced user/honer who has dozens of them, befriended him, get him to sell you 2-3 ready-to-shave well under their market value (@Slipstenar , sounds familiar? ) and then use them to learn the technique. Then use one of them to learn to hone. Keep bugging the befriended pro for advice, stones or strops


----------



## Luftmensch

musicman980 said:


> a straight razor shave can technically be more comfortable by controlling that angle to suit your needs. Not to mention you have complete control over what finish you put on your edge. A straight razor shave is a completely customizable experience, that is if you're willing to put in the time and effort to learn the skill.



This is true... part of the frustration while learning and the eventual joy. I guess other razors are designed for the 90% - if you don't fall in that range there maybe a need for more customisability.



musicman980 said:


> pick up a safety razor and experiment with different blades. You'll still be "cool", just not as cool



True. Good advice 





inferno said:


> I think the disposable blade makes sense. then you simply remove one factor from the equation. and i think feather blades and "holders" is some of the sharpest that one will ever find. can't shave with that? then you can't shave. thats it.



Feather make some extremely sharp blades. I have tried the double edged razors. I am sure their straight razors are similarly sharp. 



inferno said:


> for me though its not about efficiency. since this is so highly counter efficient and counter productive its almost insane. but its fun. its a hobby.



Bingo! It is a hobby... it is fun. Its the journey and not the destination.



inferno said:


> I actually can get a much "deeper" shave of a straight compared to the mach3s.



A perfect against the grain, straight-razor shave is something hard to beat!


----------



## Luftmensch

musicman980 said:


> The Fat with a pure badger



Me too! Occasionally Proraso green for a minty feel


----------



## Luftmensch

Matus said:


> My advice to anyone starting with straight razors - find an experienced user/honer who has dozens of them, befriended him, get him to sell you 2-3 ready-to-shave well under their market value (@Slipstenar , sounds familiar? ) and then use them to learn the technique. Then use one of them to learn to hone. Keep bugging the befriended pro for advice, stones or strops



Youve done this before? 

Good advice


----------



## Matus

Luftmensch said:


> Youve done this before?
> 
> Good advice



Sure I did


----------



## musicman980

I started a shave with my Wacker Jungmeister today, but it wasn't up to par. Some antique American steel saved this shave. 

Torrey 7/8


----------



## inferno

bog oak??


----------



## musicman980

inferno said:


> bog oak??



That's some figured ebony I found at a certain craftsman shop, with a faux bone wedge. My father said it looks like an Oreo cookie.


----------



## inferno

what did you use for rivets/pins and discs?


----------



## musicman980

Oh that's just from a razor pinning kit from Maggard - 1/16" brass rod, small washers for the outside, big washers for inside if you need them.


----------



## Foltest

My current razor rotation. Razor on top has custom horn handles, made by me. Both of them have pivot pins instead of rivets. Redrilling the holes was major pain, some drills died, but it was totally worth it. Tightness is easily adjusted and I can take them apart and clean when I want to. Imo this is much better than normal rivets.

I usually finish sharpening on fine nakayama, then 2-3 passes on crox strop to deburr. I have tried shapton glass 30K, 10K naniwa and 12K naniwa. Didnt like any of them. My full sharpening progression: 1K bester, 4K takayuki sakai, okudo suita, nakayama asagi. I use 1K only when I need to set the bevel.

I use combination of linen and leather for stropping. Few pases on linen, 40 passes on leather.


----------



## Echotraveler

Now im looking for a japanese straight razor! 

can you guys recommend were to get one? I see many work with replaceable razor...id like to sharpen my blade


----------



## musicman980

I see NOS kamisori on the auction site all the time, have a look there. Foltest's kami looks NOS, really nice!


----------



## Desert Rat

Here are my razor strops. Vintage RW Sunasack and a Red Imp. The Sunasack was very dry and I oiled it out of fear that I would loose it if I didn't. I don't think it had many miles on it, it was just old. It keeps getting better. The linen side of it is also getting better as the natural oils have started to burnish and develop a gloss. The Red Imp is a newer to me strop. Very fast and slick. The linen that came with it was married to it some time in the past. It has been treated with something feeling like a varnish. Whoever did it made the hardware for it from a Hills Bros coffee can circa late thirty's early forties as near as I can tell. I end up in the same place with either set. The Imp is kind of stiff and fast with both leather and linen while the other one is supple with a heavy draw.


----------



## musicman980

Dude those Red Imp strops are one of my favorites. If I didn't already have a shell strop, I would probably be looking for one of them. NOS ones come up every now and then on the auction site.


----------



## Desert Rat

What is the linen strop like that came with the Imps. Them two sets of mine are just complete opposites of each other in feel. The linen with the Sunasack is very supple. The one that is paired with the Imp is thick, heavy and treated with something making it really slick.


----------



## musicman980

I know some linen strops were treated with a type of wax straight from the factory, a "silk finish" as some labeled it. Users might then put their own pastes on it, like green, red and white compound. If the Imp linen is _really_ thick, it might be filled with a cotton liner. Check out this vintage firehose linen strop I'm saving for a rainy day. It's got that liner, and it gives the strop a very substantial and slightly cushioned feel. I haven't used it yet but I assume it's like honing on a cloud. The other linen here is the one I use on the back of my current strop, and it is much more supple with no liner and a tighter weave.

Both of these were soaked many times in almost boiling water with oxiclean, which inadvertently removed the factory wax and some labels :/


----------



## Desert Rat

That is a really interesting linen, hadn't seen the liner before. Not sure on the effects of tighter vs coarser weaves either. There may well be one though.

Linen flax suitable for strops seems to be a thing of the past, even the flax canvas water bags are no more. I should probably pick up some of the older fire hose when I come across it.

This company is doing some interesting work with Kangaroo tail strops on knifes, which is kind of odd seeing a hanging strop used with a knife.


----------



## inferno

I have one of SRD strops, kangaroo and linen. these were actually quite cheap when they were available. very good quality imo. i can see no shortcuts taken. SRD also had the real hand american cro-ox 0,5 microns.

If i was to get a new strop i would probably get some dovo, they are cheap and no nonsense and i guess they work very well. since they have been making razors for some time now. so they should know.


----------



## Matus

I have a strop from scripleworks.com 2.5" wide. It is really nice, but since I was learning on it, it got sever cuts on edges until I found technique that works for me. I will keep using it, but will eventually get a wider one (so that full length of a straight razor fits on it). They also offer for a fraction of a full price "seconds" which one can get for learning or for travel. I got one too and gave it to a friend of mine who is like me also a beginner with straight razors.


----------



## Matus

A different question - do you guys have experience with Naniwa SuperStone 5k? I got one with the base (had to order from Japan) as I was told that the one without the base deforms when dry/wet. But I found out that mine does too. I only use it for razors, but it feels like it has different shape every time - very easy to see when I try to flatten it with a 1200 Atoma. Plus the stone loads surprisingly fast. It feels nice when freshly lapped with a little slurry, but that does not last long.

I am now considering to get a 2k, 4k and 8k Shaptons Pro. Th 5k Naniwa is sometimes just too slow if the edge needs a little more work.


----------



## inferno

it might or might not be beneficial to have a full width one. i mean it can warp widthwise. when you use it.


----------



## inferno

Matus said:


> A different question - do you guys have experience with Naniwa SuperStone 5k? I got one with the base (had to order from Japan) as I was told that the one without the base deforms when dry/wet. But I found out that mine does too. I only use it for razors, but it feels like it has different shape every time - very easy to see when I try to flatten it with a 1200 Atoma. Plus the stone loads surprisingly fast. It feels nice when freshly lapped with a little slurry, but that does not last long.
> 
> I am now considering to get a 2k, 4k and 8k Shaptons Pro. Th 5k Naniwa is sometimes just too slow if the edge needs a little more work.



all ss stones warp, you have to flatten before each use (these are **** stones). the higher grits are less affected though. i have not seen my 12k warp. but i dont soak it either. its flat as a mirror. 

a good combo for pro stones would be 2/5/12k
and for glass 2/6(hc preferably)/10k and NOT the 16k. the 16 k is mixed grit from 2 to 16k but the 10 k is only 10 k powder. 

i have most pro and glass stones and i think pro or glass 2k // then 5k pro/6k glass // 12k pro is a good combo. make no mistake the 12k pro is a very fast stone for its grit. and you can even do 1k to 12k with it, no problem.


----------



## inferno

But there is one stone that is better than both the SS12k and pro 12k , or maybe its not better it it gets **** much much sharper. and its the spyderco UF.

all UF stones come slightly warped though, and its not worth it to fix it since you will waste 2-3 dmts on this.

i simply took a white sharpmaker rod and smoothed the surface out heavily handed (the UF has lots of stray particles on the surface) and then its good to go. and you also need to chamfer it of course.

this makes a true mirror finish. unlike the ss12k and the pro12k. this is one whole step up. but since it a sintered stone its non porous and clogs extremely fast. but it gets sharp as hell, you dont a need a strop after this.


----------



## panda

how about electric razors? which one works the most efficiently? i am in need of ultra convenient and fast one.


----------



## M1k3

inferno said:


> all ss stones warp, you have to flatten before each use (these are **** stones). the higher grits are less affected though. i have not seen my 12k warp. but i dont soak it either. its flat as a mirror.
> 
> a good combo for pro stones would be 2/5/12k
> and for glass 2/6(hc preferably)/10k and NOT the 16k. the 16 k is mixed grit from 2 to 16k but the 10 k is only 10 k powder.
> 
> i have most pro and glass stones and i think pro or glass 2k // then 5k pro/6k glass // 12k pro is a good combo. make no mistake the 12k pro is a very fast stone for its grit. and you can even do 1k to 12k with it, no problem.



Didn't someone reach out to Shapton and Hap Stanley they both said that listing saying it's mixed grit is wrong?


----------



## Matus

Thanks @inferno but I actually do not plan to go past 6k or 8k on synthetics as I switch to natural stone(s) after that.


----------



## kayman67

Glass 16k is not a mixed grit, but it is quite difficult to understand and use. The surface is hard to condition as well. 
Dictum put some strange info on this about grit, never knew why on grit and it was never backed up by knivesandtools or by Shapton. But I do understand the idea. If used incorrectly, it will scratch the blade like crazy. I would say similar to other finishers like Yellow Lake. 

Those hanging Dovos are really soft and not very likeable. I'm not aware of variations. Could be some. 

Shapton Pros don't stay true flat as well. There might not be an improvement over SS regarding this. There is much more to talk about SS, since I had this weird behaviour where the 12k didn't warp at all on me, but it does for so many.
What I like is Hayabusa/Fuji duo or Glass series. Maybe 4 or 6k HC in this instance. 

Best experience with electric razors I had with Philips since 2002. Everything else proved bad for me. Might work for others though.


----------



## inferno

panda said:


> how about electric razors? which one works the most efficiently? i am in need of ultra convenient and fast one.



braun


----------



## inferno

Matus said:


> Thanks @inferno but I actually do not plan to go past 6k or 8k on synthetics as I switch to natural stone(s) after that.



then the 6k hc is a good choice (or 8k hc) but you are then already quite mirror and i kinda doubt you will add anything to it with naturals.


----------



## inferno

kayman67 said:


> Glass 16k is not a mixed grit, but it is quite difficult to understand and use. The surface is hard to condition as well.
> Dictum put some strange info on this about grit, never knew why on grit and it was never backed up by knivesandtools or by Shapton. But I do understand the idea. If used incorrectly, it will scratch the blade like crazy. I would say similar to other finishers like Yellow Lake.
> 
> Those hanging Dovos are really soft and not very likeable. I'm not aware of variations. Could be some.
> 
> Shapton Pros don't stay true flat as well. There might not be an improvement over SS regarding this. There is much more to talk about SS, since I had this weird behaviour where the 12k didn't warp at all on me, but it does for so many.
> What I like is Hayabusa/Fuji duo or Glass series. Maybe 4 or 6k HC in this instance.
> 
> Best experience with electric razors I had with Philips since 2002. Everything else proved bad for me. Might work for others though.



many people are reporting of trouble with the 16k and it being a mixed grit stone pretty much explains all their problems so i'd guess it actually is. 

pros maybe not stay true but you dont need to soak them either. probably all stones that go from dry to wet will warp somewhat. i mean why not?

i think the hibiki line is good if you like soakers. i dont think they wear at all, ever. gave both to my father...


----------



## Matus

Thanks for all the info guys. I plan to go with splash and go for razors. My main candidates are Shapton Pro and Glass snd after reading half of Internet I came to the conclusion that I might prefer Pro over Glass. Now you tell me that Pro will warp too. I read that Glass has a very weird feedback.


----------



## kayman67

HCs are more like Pro feeling than Pro themselves


----------



## kayman67

inferno said:


> many people are reporting of trouble with the 16k and it being a mixed grit stone pretty much explains all their problems so i'd guess it actually is.



Because it's not an accurate explanation. If I manage to get my microscope going again, I will show you the differences. 

This reminded me just how many people hate another fine stone, the Suehiro 20k, while others love it. That 20k has its own debate about swarf and how to handle the surface.


----------



## zizirex

Does anyone ever try the Sigma 13K? they said it is really good....


----------



## Luftmensch

Matus said:


> A different question - do you guys have experience with Naniwa SuperStone 5k? I got one with the base (had to order from Japan) as I was told that the one without the base deforms when dry/wet. But I found out that mine does too. I only use it for razors, but it feels like it has different shape every time - very easy to see when I try to flatten it with a 1200 Atoma. Plus the stone loads surprisingly fast. It feels nice when freshly lapped with a little slurry, but that does not last long.
> 
> I am now considering to get a 2k, 4k and 8k Shaptons Pro. Th 5k Naniwa is sometimes just too slow if the edge needs a little more work.



I have a set of the older super stones (Specialty stones; I don't think there is any difference). I have 1k, 5k, 8K and 12K. I haven't noticed any significant warping. Although... I think I had to spend a bit of time flattening them when they were new. I don't soak them - they are splash and go. After using them I wipe them down so that they are only damp (not dripping), let them air dry over night and then store them. 

True... they are slow. Before using the stones I flatten them which also refreshes the surface. In the beginning they cut fast but as the swarf breaks down they seem to get finer and (much) slower. Going slow with razors probably isn't a bad thing. The high grits (including the 5k) can produce quite a bright polish. The feed back is smooth. If the surface is overworked and a too much pressure is used it might feel more gummy.

Being a good consumer and doing research is in your best interests but I can suffer "paralysis by analysis". I didn't shop around and to do back to back comparisons - so take my impressions with that in mind. It probably doesn't matter what synthetic you buy so long as the manufacture is reputable, the grit falls where you expect it and you learn to use it.


----------



## kayman67

There are people that use only 8k SS and strop after. I've been hunting for a long time for as many different ways as possible, that people use and like, to test them for myself.
They get a bright edge that shaves nicely and it's all they require. But I guess it's a matter of habit, razor, need and so on. 
Most stones will work in one context or another. What I've seen is that some are just easier and this makes them better, but in a very different way than most anticipated.


----------



## Knife2meatu

@Luftmensch Are your stones the 20mm version or the thin 10mm? The only grief I've gotten is from a thin one. Of course, the thick ones are bound to become thin ones, eventually...

***

From removing a few off their integral bases, I figure the way the glue is applied is part of the issue; most likely if Naniwa spread a layer of glue to bond the entire underside, they couldn't warp in weird, funky ways.


----------



## Matus

Maybe one should do as Shapton did with their glass line - glue the stones to a thick piece of glass, or a floor tile or similar. The plastic base on the SS stones has little chance to withstand the tensions produced in the stone when it changes temperature or absorbs some humidity.

Maybe I will go with the Glass stones after all. They cost the same as Pros and I care little ablution the difference in thickness as I will use them only for razors.


----------



## Knife2meatu

Matus said:


> Maybe one should do as Shapton did with their glass line - glue the stones to a thick piece of glass, or a floor tile or similar. The plastic base on the SS stones has little chance to withstand the tensions produced in the stone when it changes temperature or absorbs some humidity.
> 
> Maybe I will go with the Glass stones after all. They cost the same as Pros and I care little ablution the difference in thickness as I will use them only for razors.



Nah, those good Naniwa bases, like the ones Choseras and Super Stones are attached to -- there's a second, flimsier purple-colored type --, are super stiff. The issue is the glue is usually applied in daubs and mainly toward the center, so the ends of the stone can bend up or down, depending how it gets wet, depending on where it's immobilized by the glue. But yeah, they'd be improved by being well affixed to something stable: glass, tile -- or even the actual Naniwa bases, if they'd only glue them properly!

This morning I touched up razor with a progression of SS1k, Hayabusa, Fuji, SS12k. Nice stones, I much prefer to grab them for this than I do Shapton Kuros. I prefer both the feeling honing and the edge. That said, I suspect the advantage lies with how they suit my honing technique, more so than anything inherent to the Shaptons themselves. I wouldn't be an *** and say the Shaptons were ****, or anything like that... Y'know?


----------



## Matus

I just took the SS5k in my hands and applied some torque to the ends of the base - and it would give quite a bit. The corners of the stone (as they are indeed not glued to the base) would move 1-2 mm relative to the base. So the base it not super stiff. Still - it would certainly add some stiffness.

I am now just thinking loud and wondering whether the reason why the stone is not glued over the whole surface is to allow the stone to 'work' as it absorbs humidity (or dryes) and so to decrease the risk of it cracking under its own tension.


----------



## musicman980

Hey Matus, maybe I missed this, what natural stone do you go to after the 5k?


----------



## Matus

A natural finisher. I am not settled yet. I got a huge super clean ‘buyee-asagi’  and have a near-finisher Ohira Asagi and now another stone on loan from a friend. I use a Tomonagura (usually an Uchigumori) with the natural stones


----------



## Knife2meatu

Matus said:


> I just took the SS5k in my hands and applied some torque to the ends of the base - and it would give quite a bit. The corners of the stone (as they are indeed not glued to the base) would move 1-2 mm relative to the base. So the base it not super stiff. Still - it would certainly add some stiffness.
> 
> I am now just thinking loud and wondering whether the reason why the stone is not glued over the whole surface is to allow the stone to 'work' as it absorbs humidity (or dryes) and so to decrease the risk of it cracking under its own tension.


You're right, the bases do have considerably more give against twisting forces. I was wrongly remembering that it was all like trying to bend them along the length or width. Regardless however, I doubt that forces involved would be sufficient to twist the base.

Besides, from the pictures I've seen, the way the stones move seems to be more like a banana, with the ends either both going up, or down, in matched fashion, or a pancake, with all the edges either up or down; it's visible when one laps over a new pencil grid, after having previously flattened the stone and then wet it. This behavior is what made me think it was due to the glue.

What I'm getting at is, based on what the problem is -- the ends curling up along the long axis -- I don't think countering twisting the issue. Whereas the bases are indeed super stiff in the direction which would seem most important.

I'm tempted to use a good layer of silicone to stick my bothersome 10 mm Super Stone Kagayaki to one of the bases, and see if that's enough to prevent warping and keep it flat-as-lapped. I've been using it as a rubbing stone for other high grits, but it's a little ridiculous.


----------



## Luftmensch

Knife2meatu said:


> @Luftmensch Are your stones the 20mm version or the thin 10mm? The only grief I've gotten is from a thin one. Of course, the thick ones are bound to become thin ones, eventually...



I cant remember how it goes... they are the 'old new' super stones - the 10mm ones with no base.

The base could be the problem. The stone expanding/contracting at a different rate to the plastic could cause uneven stresses - particularly considering the glue is not on the entire surface.

Is the warp you guys are seeing visible to the naked eye? I certainly do not get that. Like I said, I flatten each time I hone. If it is something you are detecting using the pencil trick whilst flattening (e.g. 0.2mm movement) - then perhaps. I just ascribed that to dishing from the previous sessiong (perhaps wrongly?).


----------



## Luftmensch

Knife2meatu said:


> Besides, from the pictures I've seen, the way the stones move seems to be more like a banana, with the ends either both going up, or down, in matched fashion, or a pancake, with all the edges either up or down; it's visible when one laps over a new pencil grid, after having previously flattened the stone and then wet it. This behavior is what made me think it was due to the glue.



Only visible with the pencil trick or by naked eye. I certainly don't have warping that I can eyeball... 

I'll have to look more thoroughly at the pencil grid again. Could be warping rather than dishing... In either case, the refresh is minor - though part of the routine.

I must admit... I haven't used them for quite some time now! I really don't feel the need to go lower than 8K... decent stropping and minor touch ups on a hard asagi or Gokumyo keep it in functional territory for a loooong time...


----------



## Knife2meatu

@Luftmensch The base doesn't cause it, I have one 10mm 12k, which in particular has given me grief, and it never had any base.

And yes, it is detectable with the pencil trick. As in, I can flatten using pencil. Set the stone aside without further use, then come back and find that if I were to check flatness again, using pencil and the same flattening stone, the stone would still seem to require flattening. The way I'd describe the symptom is "The ends either always seem to need lapping -- which would be normal if the middle dished --, or there seems to be a lot needing to be taken off the middle before it'll be flat with the ends -- which is odd, based on how stones wear.

The main drawback, beside the stone never quite being as flat as one would expect, is one spends an inordinate amount of time and stone, trying to keep it flat.

My 20mm 12k has no base and does not have this problem to any noticeable extent. In the meantime I use the 10mm as a rubbing stone.


----------



## inferno

Can you glue it to another stone??


----------



## Knife2meatu

inferno said:


> Can you glue it to another stone??


I'm sure I could. Whether I would want to, is another story.

But that's just me; somebody with a less raging addiction to getting stones, and who hence actually would care to use their own similar stone as a hone -- I guess making it into a thicker stone would certainly help prevent warping. Although attaching it to a tile cut to size and rounded over would make for a nicer solution, I think.

Nanohone has an interesting product with the aluminium plates they sell to make other stones compatible with their product -- shame that the price is bordering on criminal...


----------



## inferno

yeah one of those bathroom tiles would probably work. or a hard yellow firebrick (these are cheap).

I have glued stones with 1comp polyurethane and it works very good i can tell you.


----------



## M1k3

Just buy a cheap Chinese diamond plate to glue the stone to? They go less than $5 on the bay.


----------



## Knife2meatu

I'm not sure if the two preceding posts are aimed at me, but if so, like I said: were I to "glue" the stone in question to anything, it would likely be to one of the Naniwa bases I already have, which I deem plenty sturdy enough for the purpose; and it would be with silicone, because that would yield the least bothersome bond to break ulteriorly -- if for some reason I later wanted to go back to using the 10mm 12k as a nagura; which roll it fulfills with some aplomb, it bears mentioning.


----------



## kayman67

You are pretty much using the 12ks just like me and it works nicely


----------



## inferno

since i have both the 12k shapton and the SS they are both each others nagura 

xl nagura.


----------



## Slipstenar

Luftmensch said:


> Youve done this before?
> 
> Good advice



Yes he has


----------



## MindTone

So I got me my first razor stone a couple of weeks ago and I got around to flattening it today. Now I know what lv 5+ hardness is...







Took me a half hour, I think, to get this much of it flat


----------



## Slipstenar

hehe, thats what sucks when you are into the hard stuff


----------



## MindTone

Slipstenar said:


> hehe, thats what sucks when you are into the hard stuff


Guess I learned that the hard way


----------



## zizirex

Nice, I recently just bought this Ohira for my razor, I haven't been able to use it properly, but I guess there's a learning curve right.










and it's not flat, in order to flat it, I need to remove the stamp.. which is such a bummer.


----------



## MindTone

It's just ink you know, but yeah I'd have liked to keep my stamp too


----------



## Slipstenar

You need to flatten it... otherwise you can hone on the pavement outside the office..


----------



## Slipstenar

Still just a stamp... And directly from the stonecutter they are not even close to flat.


----------



## Matus

Unless you have the stone from a very reputable source, I would not put too much weight in the stamp anyhow.


----------



## M1k3

zizirex said:


> Nice, I recently just bought this Ohira for my razor, I haven't been able to use it properly, but I guess there's a learning curve right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and it's not flat, in order to flat it, I need to remove the stamp.. which is such a bummer.



Did you buy it with intentions of collecting it or using it?


----------



## zizirex

I'm going to use it, well the stamp already gone anyway. I'm going to flatten it again and try to play it again with other slurries.


----------



## kayman67

Lapping on a cookie sheet with powders is the way to go with these hard stones.


----------



## stringer

kayman67 said:


> Lapping on a cookie sheet with powders is the way to go with these hard stones.



I assume this is one of those times where I should get a nice used cookie sheet from the Salvation Army and not use one of my wife's? Ten years married but I'm learning.


----------



## kayman67

Actually I use a pizza tray )))


----------



## Luftmensch

Slipstenar said:


> You need to flatten it... otherwise you can hone on the pavement outside the office..





Cheaper too!


----------



## Luftmensch

stringer said:


> I assume this is one of those times where I should get a nice used cookie sheet from the Salvation Army and not use one of my wife's? Ten years married but I'm learning.



If you don't mind the neighbours thinking you are crazy... you could get in the 'ballpark' by flattening the stone on the road/pavement outside - save the wear and tear on your gear for the last little bit.

Carpentry folk sometimes use glass plates with lapping grit. Eventually the glass dishes... but it is cheap to replace.


----------



## Slipstenar

Honed some razors and had to try a little


----------



## stringer

I want to get an awasedo finisher. My next major sharpening purchase. I've been looking at Watanabe, Aframes, and JNS mostly. But I'm open to suggestions. Budget is probably about $400 all in. It doesn't have to be big and perfect but nothing too narrow. Right now I have a Suita koppa that's okay but not really fine enough. I have a hideriyama that's not really fine enough and a tad soft. My Chinese 12k is too slow. My coticules are great, but I need variety. I have a Shapton pro 12k which is my main finisher now. I want something that's hard and fast and doesn't require a lot of slurry generating. Mostly I'm honing vintage eBay $10 specials.


----------



## Matus

@Slipstenar , you have the coolest stuff.

@stringer - do talk with the shops you mentioned, tell them what kind of setup you have at the moment and ask for advice within your budget. I recall that JNS had some Wakasa that should be within your budget and others will surely have something too. And I agree about the size. I would take 80x140 over 60x200 any day (might be because as a beginner I find easier to hone on a wider stone)


----------



## stringer

I have another question for you razor honers. Has anyone used all of the different 30k shapton options and can tell me what their similarities/differences are? I would like to buy one of them. I am leaning toward the Seven Stone due to the fact that it is much cheaper. 

They have all three in stock at sharpeningsupplies.com. 

Seven Series 30k - $110
Glass 30k - $360
Pro 30k - $650

I don't think the thickness of the abrasive material matters too much for something like this in terms of function or longevity. For instance, my Shapton Glass 8k is more than ten years old and gets used a lot, but just for very final finishing on micro bevels and obviously for straight razors. I don't think I have used even a quarter of its life. But, more abrasive could explain why the Shapton Pro version is way more expensive. Are there other factors that I am not thinking of? Are there any major differences in performance? Would I be able to go from my Shapton Pro 12k to one of these 30k stones without buying an additional 16k type stone?


----------



## Matus

I have learned past weekend that once a razor has been honed property up to natural finisher, Ale can keep re-honing it on that finisher with a set of 2 Asano naguras.Before that I was about to get a set of glass stones in 2, 4 and 8 grits. Now I may just stick to my Naniwa Superstone 5k if I need to clean up the edge. At least that is where I stand at the moment. I will now try to go the ‘natural finisher only’ way a d see how it works for me.

Btw I have never heard of the ‘Seven’ stones.


----------



## kayman67

Jnats are the embodiment of the rabbit hole.
Make sure you get one that is well tested with razors by someone you are on the same page with.

For the synthetic route, well, it's complicated. People like them for shaving, in a very inconsistent way. Some would never touch them, others would never touch anything else. And even between these guys, the love is not the same for all. 

If I were to get a nice finisher set, now I would consider Suehiro Goku 10+20k as first option. That's 1 + 0.5 micron (pretty much same as Shapton 16+30k), but more importantly, considered true mirror finishers (the 10k is considered a full class above Shapton Pro 12k, but much more expensive). Goku 20k is a great stone, but needs an equally great stone before it. This is one of the main reasons some people can't get it to work. 
Looks like after Shapton Pro 12k it doesn't perform best. You could try and be satisfied, but who knows. 

For the Glass series, 30k could be used directly after 8k HC. 
The Pro 30k is somewhat smoother and maybe easier to use than Glass. 
*Source it from Japan if you want one. That price is crazy. 

There is a lot more love/hate relationship towards Shapton 30k than Suehiro 20k in general. 

One additional stone to consider would be the Sigma 13k. With a light touch and proper surface conditioning it should offer an edge between 16 and 30k (or 10-20k if you consider the Suehiros), at ~100-120$. It's also well liked for shaving by most, being compared a bit with a natural feeling.

Obviously the Naniwa Sharpening Stone 12k is still a solid performer for most. Needs a very good lapping while new, to get to the good stuff.


----------



## stringer

Matus said:


> I have learned past weekend that once a razor has been honed property up to natural finisher, Ale can keep re-honing it on that finisher with a set of 2 Asano naguras.Before that I was about to get a set of glass stones in 2, 4 and 8 grits. Now I may just stick to my Naniwa Superstone 5k if I need to clean up the edge. At least that is where I stand at the moment. I will now try to go the ‘natural finisher only’ way a d see how it works for me.
> 
> Btw I have never heard of the ‘Seven’ stones.



The seven stones are new. I don't know much about them. They look like Glass stones except a little smaller.

I've mostly been using Shapton Glass 4k and 8k for heavy lifting. For finishers I've been experimenting quite a bit. I've gotten decent results with coticules, the Chinese natural, a black ark, my pro 12k. Just always interested in trying more. And I like to setup several similar razors with different finishers so I can compare.


@kayman67 thank you. That's exactly the kind of info I needed. I always forget about those Sigmas.


----------



## Luftmensch

@stringer,

I forget the context. Are you new to razor honing? If so I would go the synthetic route to control all variables until you are confident with your technique. After that you can open the Jnat rabbit hole. 

On thing... You don't really need to use such high synthetic grits to get a great shave. You can create a very good edge by 8K. This is personal preference but in my experience these super high grit stones can create screaming edges that can be harsh. But that is not what you asked ... and experimenting is fun....



kayman67 said:


> If I were to get a nice finisher set, now I would consider Suehiro Goku 10+20k as first option. That's 1 + 0.5 micron (pretty much same as Shapton 16+30k), but more importantly, considered true mirror finishers (the 10k is considered a full class above Shapton Pro 12k, but much more expensive).



+1

I have a Gokumyo 20K as well. It is a very, very bright finish. Definitely a mirror finisher! I would add this one to your list for consideration. You can jump from an ~8K type polisher to it. I can't really comment on the others... I have not used them.



Matus said:


> I have learned past weekend that once a razor has been honed property up to natural finisher, Ale can keep re-honing it on that finisher with a set of 2 Asano naguras.



Hehe... but i suppose you needed something to properly setup the bevel . I definitely agree... I think the same could be said of synthetics. If you setup your bevel correctly you can get very far with good stropping technique and one or two high grit stones.


----------



## stringer

Luftmensch said:


> @stringer,
> 
> I forget the context. Are you new to razor honing? If so I would go the synthetic route to control all variables until you are confident with your technique. After that you can open the Jnat rabbit hole.



I'm a few months in to straight razors, but very experienced rabbit hole spelunker.



Luftmensch said:


> @stringer,
> 
> You don't really need to use such high synthetic grits to get a great shave. You can create a very good edge by 8K. This is personal preference but in my experience these super high grit stones can create screaming edges that can be harsh. But that is not what you asked ... and experimenting is fun....



I'm ready to try some screaming edges. I want to be able to trim my beard like the guy does in this video. Skip to about minute 13.






Luftmensch said:


> @stringer,
> 
> 
> 
> I have a Gokumyo 20K as well. It is a very, very bright finish. Definitely a mirror finisher! I would add this one to your list for consideration. You can jump from an ~8K type polisher to it. I can't really comment on the others... I have not used them.



The gokumyo is another one that I never really think of, I will definitely keep it in the list to try.



Luftmensch said:


> @stringer,
> 
> Hehe... but i suppose you needed something to properly setup the bevel . I definitely agree... I think the same could be said of synthetics. If you setup your bevel correctly you can get very far with good stropping technique and one or two high grit stones.



I'm well established for bevel setters and mid range. I have about 15 synthetic stones between 500-5k grit. That particular rabbit hole is well furnished. I just never bothered to get too much beyond that.

Thanks for your suggestions


----------



## inferno

stringer said:


> I have another question for you razor honers. Has anyone used all of the different 30k shapton options and can tell me what their similarities/differences are? I would like to buy one of them. I am leaning toward the Seven Stone due to the fact that it is much cheaper.
> 
> They have all three in stock at sharpeningsupplies.com.
> 
> Seven Series 30k - $110
> Glass 30k - $360
> Pro 30k - $650
> 
> I don't think the thickness of the abrasive material matters too much for something like this in terms of function or longevity. For instance, my Shapton Glass 8k is more than ten years old and gets used a lot, but just for very final finishing on micro bevels and obviously for straight razors. I don't think I have used even a quarter of its life. But, more abrasive could explain why the Shapton Pro version is way more expensive. Are there other factors that I am not thinking of? Are there any major differences in performance? Would I be able to go from my Shapton Pro 12k to one of these 30k stones without buying an additional 16k type stone?



when you go above 10-12k or so then its time for diamond/cbn/cr-ox paste of different grits, not more stones imo, its just a waste of money. i have both the naniwa 12k and the shappro 12k. and they give almost identical edges. tested them yesterday when i tried to make a gyuto to cut toilet paper. (its way way too fine for this btw, 2-3k is optimal).

one step up is the spyderco UF (if you condition it). but imo even that is a waste of time unless you already have it. get a strop, get some pastes, have some fun. because this is what they are made for!

btw the pro 30k is like 360€ from fine tools. i would never buy it though. i can get about a few hundred kilos of cr-ox for that money. and so can you. and its gonne be better.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> when you go above 10-12k or so then its time for diamond/cbn/cr-ox paste of different grits, not more stones imo, its just a waste of money. i have both the naniwa 12k and the shappro 12k. and they give almost identical edges. tested them yesterday when i tried to make a gyuto to cut toilet paper. (its way way too fine for this btw, 2-3k is optimal).
> 
> one step up is the spyderco UF (if you condition it). but imo even that is a waste of time unless you already have it. get a strop, get some pastes, have some fun. because this is what they are made for!
> 
> btw the pro 30k is like 360€ from fine tools. i would never buy it though. i can get about a few hundred kilos of cr-ox for that money. and so can you. and its gonne be better.



I already got all that stuff. Right now I have a couple kinds of green, a few white, a few grits of diamond spray, CBN paste, about "eleventy" (in my spouse's count) strops: shell, bovine, linen, denim, cardboard, wood, hanging, paddle, etc. They are all setup with different compounds. Maybe I will explore that world some more before I purchase an expensive synthetic. I'm still probably going to buy a JNat, just because I want one.


----------



## inferno

i want one too  a pretty one.

well, a guy at work likes his pastes at least, i think he tops out a 0,5 micron diamond. and its completely mirror and it wont get any sharper imo. no matter what stone. and it does not take any real skill either. 
so i'd say this is better than stones. and cheaper too. 

and even if the gokumyos would be theoretically better (they wont) they are still 300 bux or so. 

maybe you should try out they stuff you have? since you already have it i mean, then its for free. 

the old standard for like 100 years or so was cro-ox on leather then just leather. you probably cant beat it now either.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> i want one too  a pretty one.
> 
> well, a guy at work likes his pastes at least, i think he tops out a 0,5 micron diamond. and its completely mirror and it wont get any sharper imo. no matter what stone. and it does not take any real skill either.
> so i'd say this is better than stones. and cheaper too.
> 
> and even if the gokumyos would be theoretically better (they wont) they are still 300 bux or so.
> 
> maybe you should try out they stuff you have? since you already have it i mean, then its for free.
> 
> the old standard for like 100 years or so was cro-ox on leather then just leather. you probably cant beat it now either.



I definitely will. It's mostly setup for knife stuff so I'll have to make a few adjustments here and there and get some of them cleaned up. Razors are way more picky about cleanliness and grit cross contamination. I have one linen Strop pasted with I think .5 micron CBN paste. It works pretty good. Can't tell much of a difference in the shave between it and the SP 12k. Definitely more harsh and sharper than coticule. Passes HHT better. I'll get some test specimens rigged up.


----------



## kayman67

I agree that a maxed SS12k is a formidable stone. The best way I was able to do so, was actually using a piece of another SS12k with it.

This won't take anything from using stones that will push everything up. 
Obviously *diminishing returns will hit hard.* 
It will always be highly debatable if it's worth it or not. 
I could have settled a lot time ago for many things.


----------



## Slipstenar

Well I know that our opinions are split in a few different directions..

But my 2 cents here..

Most of the time its not the finishers fault that the shave is off.. Its the bevelsetting and the midgrit range.
The cheapest way to get those screaming edges is related to the above... Then a strop with cbn or diamondspray will make the edge more than sharp for anyone, but the tradeoff is the comfort. 

To be able to trim the beard like someone mentioned is no problem even after a 10k stone with proper stropping. I have a glass like beard and can do that without any problems at all, its about angles that you hold the razor. AND there is more to the angles, as you can see in his video, the angle is high and that will kill a edge like a brick will ruin a window  

The urge to go higher in grit than 10k or 12k is a big hit in the wallet and for most of the case you will not feel a difference in the shave. Technique is the key for 98% of the shaves and the honing, so its better to practice than go and buy new stuff ( I KNOW ITS FUN WITH NEW STUFF)


----------



## kayman67

It's not about results alone. Stopped being with lots of things around here a long time ago. If I were to be completely honest with myself, I already have several stones I could use as one stone honing along with a couple of strops and I would not need anything else for a comfortable keen edge. I think, despite having some great Jnats, I would actually go for a coticule (I would have never imagined myself saying this years ago). I have a few fine super fast ones that would get black in no time and bring back a razor from dead to popping hair. Took me some time to find them, but it's not impossible. Most will do, these are just faster and easier. 

The good part about setting a bevel is the consensus. There is always an emphasis on this in tutorials. Also there aren't that many stones people would love to use. It's a well known quantity. Same for most middle grits.
Things get really crazy after. That's why the debate. 

When I had to learn "razors", I actually had to learn 3 different things at once. They come in a sequence and will kill the entire previous work, if done wrong. Obviously honing gets the most attention. But after that, there's stropping. Well done stropping on its own can take a razor a long way, while at the same time, just one wrong turn and the edge is done for. Stropping looks easy and very straightforward, so most people won't focus on technique for a long time, trying to understand where the problem is and going back to honing a lot, searchingfor nnew stones and so on.
And there's the shaving part. Again, technique is essential. Even the best razor in the world won't be able to compensate for lacking it. I've adapted everything to my own needs, including the shaving technique. This is the only reason I am stubborn enough to use razors anyway.


----------



## Matus

I completely agree with the above. And the necessity to learn all 3 things in parallel makes it harder to nail down when things do not work as expected. The learning curve is much steeper than I anticipated.


----------



## Luftmensch

stringer said:


> I'm a few months in to straight razors, but very experienced rabbit hole spelunker.



Thats a dangerous mix of experiences!



stringer said:


> I'm well established for bevel setters and mid range. I have about 15 synthetic stones between 500-5k grit.



Holly **** man! That is a lot of synthetics!

Hehe... I was musing on the statement that once the bevel is set, you could go for a long, long (long) time with good stropping and a high grit stone. Maybe indefinitely? BUT obviously something has to set up the bevel! So a one stone 'zen' is not really practical (or fun... or remotely what you asked!).



inferno said:


> when you go above 10-12k or so then its time for diamond/cbn/cr-ox paste of different grits, not more stones imo, its just a waste of money.



This is probably true... it is much more cost effective.



stringer said:


> I definitely will. It's mostly setup for knife stuff so I'll have to make a few adjustments here and there and get some of them cleaned up. Razors are way more picky about cleanliness and grit cross contamination.



Once piece of advice I might offer is that I find it more efficient to use separate sets of stones for my razors and knives. Perhaps you already do this?

Like you observe, cleanliness and grit contamination is an issue. The bigger issue for me is keeping them flat. It is easier getting a good edge off flat stones. As I am sure you have noticed, razors will dish stones relatively slowly. Flattening that uneven wear with a diamond plate is trivial - only a few seconds work. If you mix it up with a kitchen knife, that will cause deeper dishing meaning more time required to flatten the stone. That said... this diminishes as you go up the grit range and the stones wear slower.




Slipstenar said:


> Most of the time its not the finishers fault that the shave is off.. Its the bevelsetting and the midgrit range.
> The cheapest way to get those screaming edges is related to the above... Then a strop with cbn or diamondspray will make the edge more than sharp for anyone, but the tradeoff is the comfort.



Extremely good advice. To put it more colourfully... "you cant polish a turd". But it does sound like you are doing all the foundation work:



stringer said:


> I have one linen Strop pasted with I think .5 micron CBN paste. It works pretty good. Can't tell much of a difference in the shave between it and the SP 12k. Definitely more harsh and sharper than coticule




Rethinking your situation, given how many synthetics you have, your best fun-per-dollar (subjective of course!) might be to: work with the synthetics you have... experiment with some compounds and save up for a J-nat!

This might inform your choice... I don't regret buying the Gokumyo 20K. But I wouldn't do it again. I 'had to know', so I empathise with the urge... it was part of the journey. But that moment passed very quickly. Yes the edges were that little bit sharper but they were also more uncomfortable. Feather disposable blades are a good analogy (if you've had experience with them?). Some people love them. Many think they are harsh and too demanding of technique. I fall in the later camp. But there is so much subjectivity in all this - so your journey may be different!


----------



## kayman67

Heh, "had to know" is my most expensive line. 

I can't say much about "indefinitely" as I haven't been around that long.

In my wild days, when I got a new razor, I used to clean it and all that and killing the edge to put it back with one stone. Sometimes it was quite a challenge. This made me also learn that 1 inch honing technique.


----------



## inferno

did you try some stropping stringer?? if you dont have a good strop to try your finest paste on you can just use some double folded copy paper or cardboard or similar i guess. just tape it to something and test it.

there is an alternative that i think is more liked that fine jnats in the razor community.

escher stones. or thuringians (from thüringen in the weimar republic).

all eschers are thuringians though. escher was a company that sold thuringians, but they selected the good magical ones supposedly. and yada yaada.
supposedly the edges get so sharp they can split atoms from at least 20 different chemical elements. because of this ability, eschers was the very core of the german ww2 nuke program.


----------



## kayman67

I had some military hones. All man made. Myth debunked I guess. 

But you might be on to something here. Most Eschers were exported to US and I see the connection now. 

I wonder if eating one would get me closer to Captain America of something. Hm... Note to self.


----------



## inferno

I dont know how these are. i just know its the holy grail for many razor users. so i guess they are quite good. and also expensive now. but i kinda doubt they are like a grand or so like some jnats. 
200 maybe?? i dont know.


----------



## kayman67

I have a few, but yeah, these days the prices are mad. This year seems like 1500$ is the norm for a small one with Barber's delight label. Bigger stamped ones I've seen gone for 1k more.


----------



## inferno

wow!! really?? i would have guessed 2-300 or so for a real escher but i guess there is the good old supply/demand/(hype) at work, as always. i should have known.


----------



## kayman67

Yeah. I couldn't touch one right now.


----------



## stringer

I think my honing and stropping technique is coming along much quicker than my shaving technique. eBay razors are so damn cheap. I bought a.....few of them. I get as much practice as I want. My shaves are adequate, but I can only shave once a day and I'm too compulsive to just stick with one so I'm rotating through all of them and some of them still aren't quite shave ready. Got some nicks I can't see but my neck can feel. I got some that are splendid. I'm sure I'll settle down a bit after a few months. Shaving skills are what they are. I'm still at the point where if I try to get real close I get a lot of irritation. But if I'm patient and attentive I can pull off a close comfortable shave in 2 passes. Which is really all I need. Trimming my mustache and beard with the razor would be cool. But I also am real good at doing that with little scissors and my electric trimmer. So I'll keep working on the skill of it over time. 

I've wanted a high grit synthetic for a long time but it does make sense that diamonds and pastes can scratch those itches with mostly stuff I have lying around the bench. I finished a little red Imp on the CBN strop last night. It was quite sharp this morning. 

That helps my budget for the JNat too. Although I did find out yesterday that I have to buy a new car, so I'll probably have to hold off a bit. Anyway, here's my little collection:
Strops


Shave ready rotation



A few more in works in progress stage


----------



## Luftmensch

kayman67 said:


> And there's the shaving part. Again, technique is essential.





Matus said:


> I completely agree with the above. And the necessity to learn all 3 things in parallel makes it harder to nail down when things do not work as expected. The learning curve is much steeper than I anticipated



Thats why I usually dispense this sort of this advice:



Luftmensch said:


> Start with a trusted straight razor brand and have it sharpened/maintained by somebody who knows what they are doing. Alternatively, consider starting with disposable straight razors. Either scenario will allow them to focus on their straight razor technique while knowing the blade is serviceable. After gaining confidence in shaving technique, then move on to sharpening. Sharpening whilst learning to shave is a lot of free variables to debug.



It _*is*_ possible to focus on shaving technique alone when starting straight razor shaving - particularly when using disposables. You can completely forget about honing and stropping! I don't know of anyone who has followed this advice .... so it must not be very good (... I know it is not 'glamorous' advice and tends towards the 'boring' )

Technique really is where it begins and ends. A razor is an inanimate object... it doesnt 'shave'... you do!




kayman67 said:


> Heh, "had to know" is my most expensive line.



Amen! 






stringer said:


> I think my honing and stropping technique is coming along much quicker than my shaving technique.



Good to hear! Keep at it!



stringer said:


> eBay razors are so damn cheap. I bought a.....few of them. I get as much practice as I want.



I am sure you have considered this... but be careful that you aren't getting razors with ****** steel. It might pay dividends to stick with one razor for a while so you can eliminate some variables and work on your shaving technique.

On the other hand it is good you are experimenting with different grinds. I have been sporting a shortish beard for a loooong time now. I am lucky to be in a position where I can look a bit like Grizzly Adams. I used to shave frequently but I only shave about once a month now - my neck and cheeks. I trim the beard at the same time with either the razor, scissors or trimmer... or a combination. It all depends on my mood! When I was shaving frequently I preferred hollow razors. Now that I need to cut through a dense forest I prefer razors that more ridged (less hollow and more wedge like). This is one of the advantages of a straight razor - you can get a close shave on long hair in one pass. A double edged razor or cartridge razor will clog up and a trimmer isn't as close.



stringer said:


> I'm still at the point where if I try to get real close I get a lot of irritation. But if I'm patient and attentive I can pull off a close comfortable shave in 2 passes. Which is really all I need.



It sounds like you are progressing quickly. Everybody has their own standard and reasons for shaving. A one or two pass shave is what I do to neaten up (with and across the grain). If I want to pamper myself or there is a special event I might finish off with an against the grain pass. It feels unreal but it is not practical - I tend to get ingrown hairs.



stringer said:


> A few more in works in progress stage



Ee bah gum lad!!! You don't do anything by halves do ye boyo!?


----------



## stringer

Luftmensch said:


> Ee bah gum lad!!! You don't do anything by halves do ye boyo!?



All in or nothing. My budget was $300. That was what was in my PayPal before the spending spree. I did get one at a flea market with cash for $50 on top of that I guess. It's a nice art deco shoulderless with a worked spine. Other than that, all those strops and razors for $300. And I only ended up with one strop and one razor out of the lot that's absolutely unfixable. I'm gonna make the razor into a really nice letter opener for someone. And I'm going to cannibalize the wrecked strop to repair some of the other ones.
And for the razor collection, I've got all of the grinds from wedge to bellied hollow and every major region. England, Germany, Sweden, France, Japan, USA, Soviet Union. And I have blades from 3/8-7/8 and from the 1830s-1960s. Some are in rough shape. But mostly just scales issues. I didn't buy any with large chips or crazy hone wear or lots of rust. I will buy nicer ones eventually and trade some of these out. I went through the same process with knives. I consider it part of the learning experience. Anyways, now you can see why I need more options to experiment with in terms of finishers.


----------



## kayman67

The advice for a "well proven" razor looks good, but might have some shortcomings. Who knows. I tried this a few times just to test my own level of sharpening and didn't go very well. Guys who work volume and also manage to do a great job, while understanding specifics, are rare.


----------



## kayman67

stringer said:


> All in or nothing. My budget was $300. That was what was in my PayPal before the spending spree. I did get one at a flea market with cash for $50 on top of that I guess. It's a nice art deco shoulderless with a worked spine. Other than that, all those strops and razors for $300. And I only ended up with one strop and one razor out of the lot that's absolutely unfixable. I'm gonna make the razor into a really nice letter opener for someone. And I'm going to cannibalize the wrecked strop to repair some of the other ones.
> And for the razor collection, I've got all of the grinds from wedge to bellied hollow and every major region. England, Germany, Sweden, France, Japan, USA, Soviet Union. And I have blades from 3/8-7/8 and from the 1830s-1960s. Some are in rough shape. But mostly just scales issues. I didn't buy any with large chips or crazy hone wear or lots of rust. I will buy nicer ones eventually and trade some of these out. I went through the same process with knives. I consider it part of the learning experience. Anyways, now you can see why I need more options to experiment with in terms of finishers.



This is a good approach. The more references you have, the better is the understanding. Still, you need to move up a bit as well or be extremely lucky. Also, you might find kamisori a lot more desirable.


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## musicman980

I’ve never had better edges than this progression: Coti slurry, Coti water, Nakayama w/ light Coti slurry, Nakayama water, Chrox balsa.


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## Desert Rat

I am starting to get some good edges off the natural coticule. A learning curve for sure not being familiar with slurry and water stones. It's been a fun journey though and a progression of Coticule to black ark is pretty sweet. Don't know what to make of the synthetic yet, it's still a mystery to me.


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## inferno

Coticules can be very different from what i have read. there are many different veins and they will finish at different grits for sure. i'd guess from 6-15k thats the range depending what stone you have. 
i have 2 coticules (newly mined ones) and i'd say they top out at about 6-8k or so. and for me shaving off them feels like i'm tearing my beard out with double sided tape or waxing it off  or something.

so they either work for you or they dont. and if they dont, then you can get another coticule to try. or synths.


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## musicman980

It’s funny how the razor community goes through phases. Zulu Grey stones trended for a couple years from 2013. Frankonians were the other one-stone solution back in 2014 or 15. A Belgian blue as a capable finisher entered the scene almost as fast as it left. Jnats were not well known in the early forum years. A nice finishing Nakayama was crazy expensive, and still is, and this was back in the day when an 8 x 3 natural combo La Veinette coticule could be had for what, $150? Arkansas stones were always “there”, but didn’t get much attention. This was probably because they were historically used with oil, were deemed slow, and cheaper alternatives were readily available.

Coticules, however, dominated from the beginning. It’s long history, one-stone capability, and a dedicated following kept its tradition alive. Folks collectively studied everything about them, most prominently vein identification and honing methods. There was even an entire forum dedicated to them - talk about a Shaolin Temple! These guys had coticules down pat, and they are prime evidence that nearly every coticule can achieve a similar result. I've had cotis that gave me the best shaves to date, and then after a second honing gave me mediocre and even bad shaves. It's all a game! Just keep chasing after what reliably works, and anything goes.

Only recently have Arkansas stones tried to eclipse the coticule. What the next phase will be, I don’t know, but it’s hard to beat the romance of a coticule. I mean just look at the undulating layers and creamy top of this recent find. Try finding an Arkansas stone with this much personality.


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## musicman980

On a side note, are big meaty choppers still trendy?


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## Matus

I would be curios about trying a coticule, but at least part of the reason is frustration, because after about 6 months of learning to hone I am still getting poor edges and as a result poor shaves. It varies, but actually never got past HHT1 and sometimes not even that.


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## kayman67

Poor edges after any stone? Do those edges cut arm hair after setting the bevel? If they don't, they should. As last few passes, try only edge leading and low even pressure. If they do, it's all about refinement after on synthetics. Make sure you have clean flat stones. 

I have rarely encountered that one BBW layer capable of shaving, real shaving, 'cos I imagine one could cut hair after most stones. And I've read about this old dense darker BBW layer, but these days it's so rare, it's more likely that I could find a pile of great coticules and not one with a layer like that.

Yeah, I guess the community gets crazy fast on two accounts, anything that is supposed to be amazing while being cheap or anything that is supposed to be better than anything before. Hm, this sounds familiar with many things...

So, I've said at some point that if I were to keep only one stone, the coticule might be that stone. And this is true. Now, coticules are demanding stones. Some less, some a lot more. This means they require adjustable technique and even some particularly effective gear after. When I first get one, I try to determine a behaviour pattern. Using the dilucote as a testing method several times, I place different characteristics and adjust accordingly. Obviously it wasn't always like that for me. 
After, the importance of the strop, mainly linen or whatever is used as first step, for some of them, is really high. What this means is that if you don't have something capable of dealing with that after edge, there might be no edge.


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## stringer

Matus said:


> I would be curios about trying a coticule, but at least part of the reason is frustration, because after about 6 months of learning to hone I am still getting poor edges and as a result poor shaves. It varies, but actually never got past HHT1 and sometimes not even that.



I can only tell you want has been working for me. But I'm definitely getting sharp HHT3+ edges easily with lots of different blades.

Shapton Glass 2k
Back and forth scrubbing motions until I raise a burr
Flip the razor or switch hands (doesn't seem to matter too much) scrubbing motions until I raise a burr on the other side
Then do alternating sweeping x strokes maybe 100 strokes
After this razor treetops easily. Shaves hair from arm. Sometimes I'm already getting HHT 1.
Then Shapton Glass 4k
100 alternating strokes
Shapton Glass 8k
60 alternating strokes
Pro 12k
40 alternating strokes
Plain leather
20 light laps

If I have trouble getting a clean HHT3+ after that then I go to .5u CBN pasted linen for 20 laps. Then strop on leather 20 laps. This always gets me to HHT 3+. But I'm dealing with vintage razors so still not always the smoothest shave. There's often invisible nicks and pitting that I don't find until the shave test. If that happens I'll start over with a 1k stone and do everything again.

Coticule edges work, but I still feel like the CBN improves them for me. They are slightly less harsh than finishing off the Pro 12k. Playing with honing media has really improved my results. Try glycerin, mineral oil, running water, wd40, dish soap, lather, etc. See what works for you. I have a tough time getting coticule edges to pass HHT, but then they do pretty well in the shave test. The combo with the pasted strop works well for me.

Next on my list to try is a real JNat awasedo and I'm going to make/buy a balsa strop after the holidays.

For shaving lately, I've been doing 1 pass on my neck with the grain. It's not that close but I have a full beard so who cares. Then I do a couple passes to trim up my lines around my cheeks, sideburns, mustache. So I'm also not shaving everything or worrying about getting real close. So YMMV.


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## inferno

the myth of the coticule is that "its sharp enough to shave, but will never cut your skin"

and imo this is true. but for some people they are not sharp enough. thats it. then you need a finer edge.
I can shave with my coticule no problem. but first i need to have very warm long shower (and i'm not on communal hot water, i had a 25l water heater until recently), then lots of lather. 
off my spyderco UF i can shave cold. with just some lather. thats it. it just slided right through. 

i would much rather get any synth than a coticule imo. if i wanted results.


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## inferno

also i hardened and tempered this guy yesterday. 01 165C temper.


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## kayman67

You reminded me that I need to finish that UF. Got caught up with work and I haven't.


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## Desert Rat

inferno said:


> Coticules can be very different from what i have read. there are many different veins and they will finish at different grits for sure. i'd guess from 6-15k thats the range depending what stone you have.
> i have 2 coticules (newly mined ones) and i'd say they top out at about 6-8k or so. and for me shaving off them feels like i'm tearing my beard out with double sided tape or waxing it off  or something.
> 
> so they either work for you or they dont. and if they dont, then you can get another coticule to try. or synths.


Are you still not stropping after honing? I'm not tough enough to go straight from a hone to my face.
I don't know what the standard result is for Coticule's but I can pass a HHT only after stropping, which is fine because that's the edge I am shaving with and how I'm maintaining the razor. 
I don't own any high grit synthetics other then the Coti I posted. I did order a JNAT hone a couple of days ago and it will be my first JNAT so looking forward to that experience.


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## inferno

i stop after the coticules. plain leather. kangaroo. 

if you got a known good razor jnat its probably gonna be twice as sharp compared to any coti *from what i have read* at least. 
"nakayamas" seems to be the best ones for razors. (but this is simply the name of a mine so...)


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## kayman67

Just a Roo strop might not be enough for most. You need to experiment with different linen. A lot of people use some green with that. 
Very hard and fine cotis are ultra rare stuff. They are on par with top Jnats.

Something I haven't noticed here yet. Any of you using ultra fine polishing iron oxide? Good stuff it's usually around 0.1 micron and gives a very high polished edge and maybe too keen for most people, if done right.


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## Desert Rat

inferno said:


> i stop after the coticules. plain leather. kangaroo.
> 
> if you got a known good razor jnat its probably gonna be twice as sharp compared to any coti *from what i have read* at least.
> "nakayamas" seems to be the best ones for razors. (but this is simply the name of a mine so...)


 I don't no what mine, it's just a small vintage razor hone that I thought would work for me because I like the kamisori's and honing in my hand. I really no nothing about JNAT's. I will post my results with it after I have had some time with it.


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## inferno

kayman67 said:


> Just a Roo strop might not be enough for most. You need to experiment with different linen. A lot of people use some green with that.
> Very hard and fine cotis are ultra rare stuff. They are on par with top Jnats.
> 
> Something I haven't noticed here yet. Any of you using ultra fine polishing iron oxide? Good stuff it's usually around 0.1 micron and gives a very high polished edge and maybe too keen for most people, if done right.



its usually called red rouge in the jewellery and optics field and "lapidary industry". its usually the finest polishing powder. 
there is also cerium oxide, this is very common for telescope mirrors. 

"lapidary powder" results. there is a whole fukn ocean of this. cheap too. 
https://www.johnsonbrotherslapidary.com/Polishing_Powders.html
https://kingsleynorth.com/lapidary-...Polish & Media&nR[visibility_catalog][=][0]=1
https://rocktumbler.com/polish/
http://www.amlap.com/alw/page18.html

and it goes on and on  these were just the first ones i found.


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## kayman67

I have some myself. I used it sometimes. Not too often thought.


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## inferno

Desert Rat said:


> I don't no what mine, it's just a small vintage razor hone that I thought would work for me because I like the kamisori's and honing in my hand. I really no nothing about JNAT's. I will post my results with it after I have had some time with it.



its easiest to just try stuff yourself. 

all i know is that a "koppa stone" of razor quality is like 150-300 or so. and full bench stone sized one is usually 500-2k or so if its known good mine/strata/tested good and so on. 

the guy at http://tomonagura.com/ i think only does razors on his jnats. look up that site for relevant info. if anyone knows about jnats and razors its him. he has lots of info on this on his site.


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## inferno

regarding bnats. my ones i have are probably of the coarser variety. but i have 1 bnat nagura and its like creamy white yellow in color ans smooth as F. and obviously this is not even close to my bnats. this is much much finer. and i'd guess if you have full sized stones like this well then yeah then its much better.

if i look at my coticules and my coti nagura i would not even classify them as the same type of stone if i didn't know they were both coticules. it would be like having a shappro 1k and somehow comparing it to a flattened tomato. and somehow thinking these were closely related.


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## Badgertooth

kayman67 said:


> It's not about results alone. Stopped being with lots of things around here a long time ago. If I were to be completely honest with myself, I already have several stones I could use as one stone honing along with a couple of strops and I would not need anything else for a comfortable keen edge. I think, despite having some great Jnats, I would actually go for a coticule (I would have never imagined myself saying this years ago). I have a few fine super fast ones that would get black in no time and bring back a razor from dead to popping hair. Took me some time to find them, but it's not impossible. Most will do, these are just faster and easier.
> 
> The good part about setting a bevel is the consensus. There is always an emphasis on this in tutorials. Also there aren't that many stones people would love to use. It's a well known quantity. Same for most middle grits.
> Things get really crazy after. That's why the debate.
> 
> When I had to learn "razors", I actually had to learn 3 different things at once. They come in a sequence and will kill the entire previous work, if done wrong. Obviously honing gets the most attention. But after that, there's stropping. Well done stropping on its own can take a razor a long way, while at the same time, just one wrong turn and the edge is done for. Stropping looks easy and very straightforward, so most people won't focus on technique for a long time, trying to understand where the problem is and going back to honing a lot, searchingfor nnew stones and so on.
> And there's the shaving part. Again, technique is essential. Even the best razor in the world won't be able to compensate for lacking it. I've adapted everything to my own needs, including the shaving technique. This is the only reason I am stubborn enough to use razors anyway.



Spot on. And also probably a fourth step/variable is trying to extricate your “knife” head from you razor head when honing. Because I’ve sort of fumbled my way to where I am with stone sharpening without much of a theoretical framework it clouds my experience with razors and I find it genuinely difficult.


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## kayman67

Going from knives to razors usually does seem harder than the other way around.


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## brooksie967

Slipstenar said:


> Honed some razors and had to try a little


Quite fond KP in that grind, i have two. Love them dearly.


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## musicman980

Classy shave this evening. Le Grelot Lotus in ivory scales.


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## Luftmensch

Matus said:


> I would be curios about trying a coticule, but at least part of the reason is frustration, because after about 6 months of learning to hone I am still getting poor edges and as a result poor shaves. It varies, but actually never got past HHT1 and sometimes not even that.





Badgertooth said:


> Spot on. And also probably a fourth step/variable is trying to extricate your “knife” head from you razor head when honing. Because I’ve sort of fumbled my way to where I am with stone sharpening without much of a theoretical framework it clouds my experience with razors and I find it genuinely difficult.





kayman67 said:


> Going from knives to razors usually does seem harder than the other way around.



I wonder why that is? I went from razors to kitchen knives.... I find razors a fair bit easier since they have a built in hone guide! Maybe it is pressure? For razors it has to be high enough to get steel removal but light enough to prevent the blade from deforming. As you progress up the grits the weight of the blade is sufficient (perhaps with a little bit of torque applied to push the edge into the hone). I had the opposite problem with knives! I was using too little pressure in my earlier days!

But yeah... the importance of setting the bevel cant be overstated. Don't progress too early. Once the bevel is set, the progression up the grits is relatively repetitive, uncomplicated zen...


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## Luftmensch

musicman980 said:


> On a side note, are big meaty choppers still trendy?



.... mmmm.... I don't know! I stopped following the trends! What I do 'works' well enough for me. As I said earlier - Im pretty into stiffer blades at the moment. Not full on wedges but less hollow grinds. For me it is a nice balance between feedback/stiffness and weight

But you got me thinking... I should give my more hollow grind another go!


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## Desert Rat

When I purchased my coticule it was a part of a three stone set with a soft ark and the synthetic coticule. Somebody's old razor hones for sure. I just figured that the synthetic would be the middle stone in the progression. That assumption is wrong with the synthetic perhaps being slightly finer. It doesn't seem to self slurry with light pressure, it's soft and forgiving and not as fickle as the coticule. I see them listed as black and white hones sometimes. Certainly capable of finishing to a shaving edge, but mine is a very slow stone, painfully so.


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## zizirex

I got this couple weeks ago, good enough for my razor.





slightly finer than my Ohira koppa


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## kayman67

Luftmensch said:


> I wonder why that is? I went from razors to kitchen knives.... I find razors a fair bit easier since they have a built in hone guide! Maybe it is pressure? For razors it has to be high enough to get steel removal but light enough to prevent the blade from deforming. As you progress up the grits the weight of the blade is sufficient (perhaps with a little bit of torque applied to push the edge into the hone). I had the opposite problem with knives! I was using too little pressure in my earlier days!
> 
> But yeah... the importance of setting the bevel cant be overstated. Don't progress too early. Once the bevel is set, the progression up the grits is relatively repetitive, uncomplicated zen...



Knives are much more forgiving in a way. You can use (and most people do) a knife without doing a great job sharpening it.


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## Luftmensch

kayman67 said:


> Knives are much more forgiving in a way. You can use (and most people do) a knife without doing a great job sharpening it.



Did you just subtly imply @Matus and @Badgertooth dont do a great job of sharpening their knives?


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## Matus

Luftmensch said:


> Did you just subtly imply @Matus and @Badgertooth dont do a great job of sharpening their knives?



I am fully opened to such a suggestion - as a home cook I do not sharpen knives super often, so I take no offence  As was already said by @kayman67 , so-so sharpened knife will still cut better than a dull knife, but with a razor you have a much less room of error to get a blade that will shave. And I can only openly admit, that at least when it comes to razors, my honing skills are not sufficient yet. 

Now when it comes to @Badgertooth , I would be more careful to make such a statement


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## kayman67

Luftmensch said:


> Did you just subtly imply @Matus and @Badgertooth dont do a great job of sharpening their knives?



No offence intended.


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## Luftmensch

I kid... I kid.... I have no doubt they are competent. 

True... the stakes are lower in the kitchen. You shoulda seen my face after 'honing' my first razor - talk about razor burn... It was pretty compelling motivation to do better. My bar in the kitchen is pretty low. Sharpening beyond a certain point is rather impractical - the edge gets dulled after a few contacts with the cutting board. 'Sharp enough' is sharp enough!


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## YumYumSauce

Lately Ive been getting the itch to learn to use a razor. Or maybe its just an excuse to get more sharp things and stones . I never learned because I scarred myself playing with one when I was like 5 lol.


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## musicman980

YumYumSauce said:


> Lately Ive been getting the itch to learn to use a razor. Or maybe its just an excuse to get more sharp things and stones . I never learned because I scarred myself playing with one when I was like 5 lol.



New steel, new stones, that would be reason enough for me. It’s also a journey that’s worthwhile in the end.


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## stringer

I am no longer an Arkansas Agnostic. I am a now a True Believer. I purchased two tiny little test specimens. A new Dan's surgical black which I glued to a piece of rubber for in-hand honing. And a vintage translucent pen knife hone. I've finished a couple of razors on each. The shaves are magnificent. They get sharper than the coticules easier and they are still buttery smooth. I'm going to pick up some more full sized specimens now that I know I like them, but if you're on a budget there are a lot of affordable little rocks out there.


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## kayman67

These work very well as last stage finishers. 
Did you use a soap and water finish with coticules?


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## stringer

kayman67 said:


> These work very well as last stage finishers.
> Did you use a soap and water finish with coticules?



Oh yeah. I've been playing with my two little vintage pieces for a few months. I've tried a lot of honing media. They produce pretty good shaves. I've had the best luck starting with very soapy water and gradually diluting to running water. But I haven't created anything as crisp as the Ark except on my 12k synthetic. Usually I feel the need to cheat with my coticules and do some stropping on diamonds, CrOx, or CBN. With the ark I just do leather and it's fine. And I don't have to think about it. I can just do a couple hundred laps with very little attention while watching TV and they come out perfect. With the coticules I feel like I have to be more perfect or else it doesn't get sharp enough. Hangs up on the coarse areas of my beard and tugs a little on my neck. And I can't ever really get coticule edges past violins on HHT but the ark goes straight to 3 or 4 even before stropping. I'm also working on cleaning up what I hope is a Washita. It was black when I bought it but I've been cleaning it and lapping it. Underneath it's coarse and tan with sparkly crystals. It puts a nice kasumi on my test nakiri.


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## stringer

kayman67 said:


> These work very well as last stage finishers.
> Did you use a soap and water finish with coticules?



Oh yeah. I've been playing with my two little vintage pieces for a few months. I've tried a lot of honing media. They produce pretty good shaves. I've had the best luck starting with very soapy water and gradually diluting to running water. But I haven't created anything as crisp as the Ark except on my 12k synthetic. Usually I feel the need to cheat with my coticules and do some stropping on diamonds, CrOx, or CBN. With the ark I just do leather and it's fine. And I don't have to think about it. I can just do a couple hundred laps with very little attention while watching TV and they come out perfect. With the coticules I feel like I have to be more perfect or else it doesn't get sharp enough. Hangs up on the coarse areas of my beard and tugs a little on my neck. And I can't ever really get coticule edges past violins on HHT but the ark goes straight to 3 or 4 even before stropping. I'm also working on cleaning up what I hope is a Washita. It was black when I bought it but I've been cleaning it and lapping it. Underneath it's coarse and tan with sparkly crystals. It puts a nice kasumi on my test nakiri. I'll put some pics when I have time.


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## stringer

Here's some pics of my mystery whetstone. It came in a primitive wood box. It looked and smelled like they soaked the whole thing in some kind of tar. I tried to pull the stone out and chipped it. Then I tried to sell it in eBay but nobody bought it. So I decided to try and fix it. I smashed it out of the box. And I've been lapping and cleaning it. Please help identify.


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## kayman67

Most likely it's Washita. 
It's usually easy to take it out if you put the box in water.


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## kayman67

Let me show you something. This is a clear mirror edge made with a coticule. Well as close as possible to clear mirror, since some scratches are here and there, because I don't have the means to make the stone perfect, even if I know the theory. 
The theory starts from this perspective. 

And it pretty much would make any coticule capable of this, but it's not really that easy or simple. Also the process needs a lot of understanding and practice since I have to adjust a lot. 
I did my best to capture the edge. The HHT of this, without stropping (and this is the edge right after the stone), is 4 to 5, being as comfortable as possible for me. 
First and only other stone used was Chosera 1000. 
I usually do things much faster on coticules and most people do the same as it's all they need. But good stropping is required after or it won't really work that well.


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## stringer

That's awesome. My coticules are definitely not that flat. I hadn't thought about it, but some of the difference in performance between my Arkansas stones/12k and my coticules might be attributed just to their relative flatness. I have spent a lot more time flattening the arks and the 12k. There is definitely room for easy improvement.


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## kayman67

Flatness is important, but also the surface itself. Since those garnets might be quite aggressive, you need to smooth them as much as possible and limit their cutting power with something more than water. Water works, but even a drop of soap in that water makes everything better.

Some people do not use slurry so they could just keep the surface as smooth as possible. If you make or use slurry, you expose new garnets that you need to deal with later. It's not wrong, it's just something to consider and adjust accordingly.
Others just try to keep the pressure to such a level that the edge barely touches the surface, almost gliding above those garnets.


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## stringer

What effect would one of those flat stones have on a razor? Like if you bought the ones that Toolworks sales on eBay. I assume that it would perform quite a bit better than an OOTB medium Norton India stone. But would it produce a shavable edge? It would probably make a crummy medium grit stone too, since it would have zero aggression. But what if you used it to deburr, so to speak, after your finisher?


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## kayman67

They should polish like nothing else. But as far as I know, you always need 2 of them to keep them working.


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## stringer

kayman67 said:


> They should polish like nothing else. But as far as I know, you always need 2 of them to keep them working.



Luckily they sell them in pairs. That will definitely go on the wish list.


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## kayman67

Mine as well, but there's always something else I want more.


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## Slipstenar

A coticule edge can be very keen and nice to shave with. But I have alsways gotten a better edge straight off a jnat and some good ol stropping ofcourse.
A coticule honing session can be a frustrating time for some reasons, but when you get there and it works as intended then its a good time


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## Desert Rat

stringer said:


> Here's some pics of my mystery whetstone. It came in a primitive wood box. It looked and smelled like they soaked the whole thing in some kind of tar. I tried to pull the stone out and chipped it. Then I tried to sell it in eBay but nobody bought it. So I decided to try and fix it. I smashed it out of the box. And I've been lapping and cleaning it. Please help identify.
> 
> View attachment 65517
> 
> View attachment 65518
> 
> View attachment 65519
> 
> View attachment 65520
> 
> View attachment 65521


You probably already know but a soak in Simple Green is the go to for degreaseing oil stones. Kerosene was a popular lubricant at one time for those. Might be what you are smelling.


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## Desert Rat

Here is my latest razor hone and my first JNAT. I have had it a few weeks now and have been honing on it pretty regular. Less of a learning curve than the coticule. I really like it, hard and fine. Probably be another JNAT in my future but not anytime soon.


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## kayman67

Looks very nice. Love that kamisori!


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## Spadazzo88

stringer said:


> It took me a while to get the razor into shape. It's a 100 year old $10 eBay special. My shapton Glass 8k produced a workable razor but it wasn't comfortable so I bought all the rest of that stuff but have pretty much settled on the shapton pro 12k. But I find the Suita finish a tad more smooth feeling even if not quite as sharp. Same thing with the strop, just makes it feel a little more comfortable. I am planning to do some more work to the strop to condition it's surface.
> My sharpening technique is pretty good I think. My shaving technique leaves a lot to be desired. FWIW, I have medium hair in terms of both fine/coarse and thick/thin. I'm skinny, bony, and tall and haven't quite figured out how to navigate all the contours of my long angular neck. Especially in a timely fashion. I've saved practicing for my days off work when I have more time to administer first aid if need be.


Hardness of the suita? Just for comparing. I finish on a narutaki lv4 and a nakayama lv4,5


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## Spadazzo88

Which is the Lowest level of hardness on a jnats stone for finishing a razor? Some say lv4,5 but I found a nice lv4 stone in my setup as finisher


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## kayman67

It's complicated. Ideally, for final steps, it should not auto slurry and the surface is really important. So how that develops, has a great impact. I have one Nakayama no one wanted, but it does something very interesting if used right. The surface gets glassy and makes a really beautiful shaving edge. Pretty much the best stone I ever found. I didn't know it right away though. And it's not that hard to expect that level of burnish. Slurry is easy to make, but doesn't auto slurry unless you press the razor into the stone to the other side. Even takes a bit of water. What's ironic is that no one would pay anything for it. A true gem.

Lvl 4 might auto slurry even with some low medium pressure. If it's fine enough and you adjust for this, should also work well. I had some like this and managed to get them working nicely.


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## Spadazzo88

kayman67 said:


> It's complicated. Ideally, for final steps, it should not auto slurry and the surface is really important. So how that develops, has a great impact. I have one Nakayama no one wanted, but it does something very interesting if used right. The surface gets glassy and makes a really beautiful shaving edge. Pretty much the best stone I ever found. I didn't know it right away though. And it's not that hard to expect that level of burnish. Slurry is easy to make, but doesn't auto slurry unless you press the razor into the stone to the other side. Even takes a bit of water. What's ironic is that no one would pay anything for it. A true gem.
> 
> Lvl 4 might auto slurry even with some low medium pressure. If it's fine enough and you adjust for this, should also work well. I had some like this and managed to get them working nicely.


Thanks. I have to try this thing of auto slurry.
Some say that I need the slurry to finish the razor before go only with water


----------



## kayman67

You might or might not need it, depending on how you want the stone to handle the edge. What you don't want is for it to keep making or start making slurry on its own too easy.


----------



## stringer

Spadazzo88 said:


> Hardness of the suita? Just for comparing. I finish on a narutaki lv4 and a nakayama lv4,5



My little suita is decently hard but not really fine enough. Edges tug. I have another few months experience since then. I don't use the suita much any more for razors. It is nice for knives. Lately for razors I've been focusing on Arkansas stones. A serious JNat finisher is still on my wishlist. My birthday is in a couple of months maybe I'll pull the trigger then.

My newest rock is a vintage butterscotch translucent Arkansas that somebody milled a custom case for out of a block of aluminum. I did my first test hone and shave today. I did 100 laps on my 1910s Wm. Elliott. It had a coticule/CBN edge with a dozen shaves on it. The shave was very good. A close shave with no irritation after two passes. BBS on my cheeks and most of my neck. Some stubble detectable if I run my fingers against the grain in the hollows. Which I'm fine with and don't press my luck on. 
The hardest test I give the razor is trimming between my nostrils and the top of my mustache. I trim about 1/4" of this because it comes in ragged, curly, and crazy colors and tries to curl up into my nose. To accomplish this I do a WTG pass stretching my upper lip down while pulling the the tip of my nose up. Then I do an ATG "fool's pass". I hold the razor flat against my mustache and push with a little bit of pressure and then do short vertical thrusts up and down several times working my way from the left corner of my mouth to the right. And bottom to top. If a knife is too harsh it will scalp my pores on this process and give me little pin prick looking bleeders. Mostly so far this has been an issue if I get carried away with the CBN. 
If it's not sharp enough then I get tugging and irritation. Sometimes I get my coticules to work great. Sometimes I have a stinging lip for a few days. The Arkansas stones so far are my best performers on the most difficult part of my shave. 

Wet. Left to Right
Vintage Coticule/BBW
Vintage Translucent Ark Pen Knife Home
Vintage Butterscotch Translucent Ark
Dan's Surgical Black Ark Pen Knife Hone
Vintage Coticule/BBW







The Butterscotch with the cover on





Butterscotch with light shining on the edge.
That's the normal Translucent on the left






This is the regular Translucent with light shining through it.






I can't tell much difference between the edges on the three arks. The bigger one is more comfortable to use and looks cooler. But I'm used to sharpening giant knives under all sorts of cramped conditions and with subpar equipment options so dealing with a small razor hone is not really an issue.


----------



## Spadazzo88

stringer said:


> My little suita is decently hard but not really fine enough. Edges tug. I have another few months experience since then. I don't use the suita much any more for razors. It is nice for knives. Lately for razors I've been focusing on Arkansas stones. A serious JNat finisher is still on my wishlist. My birthday is in a couple of months maybe I'll pull the trigger then.
> 
> My newest rock is a vintage butterscotch translucent Arkansas that somebody milled a custom case for out of a block of aluminum. I did my first test hone and shave today. I did 100 laps on my 1910s Wm. Elliott. It had a coticule/CBN edge with a dozen shaves on it. The shave was very good. A close shave with no irritation after two passes. BBS on my cheeks and most of my neck. Some stubble detectable if I run my fingers against the grain in the hollows. Which I'm fine with and don't press my luck on.
> The hardest test I give the razor is trimming between my nostrils and the top of my mustache. I trim about 1/4" of this because it comes in ragged, curly, and crazy colors and tries to curl up into my nose. To accomplish this I do a WTG pass stretching my upper lip down while pulling the the tip of my nose up. Then I do an ATG "fool's pass". I hold the razor flat against my mustache and push with a little bit of pressure and then do short vertical thrusts up and down several times working my way from the left corner of my mouth to the right. And bottom to top. If a knife is too harsh it will scalp my pores on this process and give me little pin prick looking bleeders. Mostly so far this has been an issue if I get carried away with the CBN.
> If it's not sharp enough then I get tugging and irritation. Sometimes I get my coticules to work great. Sometimes I have a stinging lip for a few days. The Arkansas stones so far are my best performers on the most difficult part of my shave.
> 
> Wet. Left to Right
> Vintage Coticule/BBW
> Vintage Translucent Ark Pen Knife Home
> Vintage Butterscotch Translucent Ark
> Dan's Surgical Black Ark Pen Knife Hone
> Vintage Coticule/BBW
> 
> 
> View attachment 66226
> 
> 
> The Butterscotch with the cover on
> View attachment 66227
> 
> 
> Butterscotch with light shining on the edge.
> That's the normal Translucent on the left
> 
> View attachment 66228
> 
> 
> This is the regular Translucent with light shining through it.
> 
> View attachment 66229
> 
> 
> I can't tell much difference between the edges on the three arks. The bigger one is more comfortable to use and looks cooler. But I'm used to sharpening giant knives under all sorts of cramped conditions and with subpar equipment options so dealing with a small razor hone is not really an issue.


Thanks a lot. Great reply


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## Luftmensch

So... @stringer... given experience from your quest... what is:

your most pleasurable stone to use
the one you find makes the most comfortable and sharp edge
Also... have you managed to get to the goal of shaving your moustache like the video you posted?




stringer said:


> Then I do an ATG "fool's pass".



Haha... yeah... the "fool's pass"... only on special occasions! Even when I do it well it causes ingrown hairs on my neck...



stringer said:


> small razor hone is not really an issue.



Not at all. That said, I prefer the luxury of a full-sized bench. It allows for longer strokes. Or a bigger swoop when doing X-strokes.


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## stringer

Luftmensch said:


> So... @stringer... given experience from your quest... what is:
> 
> your most pleasurable stone to use
> the one you find makes the most comfortable and sharp edge



I'm all about the Arkansas stones for balance of comfort and sharpness and my new 6"x2" butterscotch is the perfect size to use. I'm going to keep experimenting with the coticules and I find my coticule/CBN hybrid edges to be on par with my Ark edges they are just more finicky to achieve. It's kind of a toss up on time. Tortoise and hare kind of thing. I'm doing Shapton Glass 2-4-8 for most of the work. The finishers are just icing on the cake so my real MVP stone is the Glass 2k. 



Luftmensch said:


> So... @stringer
> 
> Also.. have you managed to get to the goal of shaving your moustache like the video you posted?



No. And my honing of bellied hollows has improved drastically. My edges sing like crazy and have no issues doing actual shaving activities. I think it must be a hair consistency thing. I just use the same little pair of Tweezerman scissors and electric trimmer that I've used for years when I need to pare back a bit or knock down some wild ones.


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## Luftmensch

Thanks for the reply!

Hmmm... damn you... maybe I should give this Arkansas nonsense a go then! All for the fun of course.

A hybrid edge is fine! My progression is through a Naniwa-SS set of: 1k-5k-8k-12k. That was back in the day. Since my bevels are all set, the reality is I don't need to go below 8k anymore. I have a couple of hard Nakayamas and a Shobudani to finish on. So 'heavy' maintenance might look like 8k-12k-Jnat-Strop. More routine maintenance might look like light passes on a Jnat then stropping.

I purchased a few Mikawa Nagura a while ago but I haven't invested the time into 'discovering' them... been preoccupied with other things I guess!




stringer said:


> I think it must be a hair consistency thing



Oh definitely... the hanging hair test is good to test the consistency of sharpness along a blade. It is good as a yard stick for an individual to gauge sharpness.... but that is within their own frame of reference. We all have different hair! What works on one person's hair might not work on another. So it is not much use as a global or absolute reference for sharpness.

My beard hair is pretty thick and wiry so passing the hanging hair test for me is relatively easy. They jump out the way like they had an electric shock! I can trim stray hairs by passing the razor over them in the air - usually. On the other hand, my shoulders have a mix of thick body hair and small, nearly blonde hairs. Those small hairs.... not a chance i'll be able to pop them in twain when suspended!


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## kayman67

You could try this, a set-up I've used, albeit with a fully burnished hard black ark, but should make very little difference.

SG 2k HR, 4k HC (HR works as well, had them both), 8k HC (maybe the nicest 8K stone for this and should give pretty much a mirror finish, while HR not, but delivers a good clean edge that will require more work after) and the ark with a mix of 1:1 water / ballistol. Even if slow, it should deliver a very good edge.
Instead of translucent, that are fairly expensive these days (and a pain to lap and burnish if necessary), some people use different stones, like charnley (unfortunately also getting pretty expensive, but mine is super nice to use and taking it to a perfect surface is really much easier) or some hard naturals from all over the world, like cnats (some are not really that good), ceramics. There are a variety of stones that actually work and I've tested as many as I could get. One of the nicest is a stone called _Special Stone only for Good Razors_. And this is so interesting as it looks like doing nothing under the microscope as far as I can see, but you get this great shave out of nowhere. It works in a very strange way, very strange particular stone maybe as I could find only one. To be noted that they are not all the same with La Lune for some reason, even if they are called the same a lot. The La Lune(s) that I've seen (purple, blue), were definitely different. I need to test this more to see what's what.


----------



## stringer

My mystery hone has been in the simple green for about 48 hours. It's now a light grey color. It's very coarse. Mottled. There's still some embedded oil and swarf, but not much.


----------



## Desert Rat

Reel coarse doesn't sound right but the surface of the stone can be dressed all kinds of different ways. The mottled appearance is unique to washita's I believe. If you have a scale a washita will come in under 2.300 SPG or maybe right around there if it has absorbed some moisture.
Left to right coarse to fine.


----------



## inferno

stringer said:


> I'm all about the Arkansas stones for balance of comfort and sharpness and my new 6"x2" butterscotch is the perfect size to use. I'm going to keep experimenting with the coticules and I find my coticule/CBN hybrid edges to be on par with my Ark edges they are just more finicky to achieve. It's kind of a toss up on time. Tortoise and hare kind of thing. I'm doing Shapton Glass 2-4-8 for most of the work. The finishers are just icing on the cake so my real MVP stone is the Glass 2k.
> 
> 
> 
> No. And my honing of bellied hollows has improved drastically. My edges sing like crazy and have no issues doing actual shaving activities. I think it must be a hair consistency thing. I just use the same little pair of Tweezerman scissors and electric trimmer that I've used for years when I need to pare back a bit or knock down some wild ones.



i have the spyyderco UF and according to people in the know its like an ark. but its a synth. ymmv.


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## inferno

a good trial run with razorz imo is shaving your head before moving onto you face. its much easier. and when you can do that very good then its time to move on to the hard stuff. 

i used to shave my head about 2x a week for several years. and it makes you sexy.


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## kayman67

Just had a strange experience these days. I've changed my mug (a less fancy word for shaving lather bowl). Not the brush or anything, just the mug itself. And got a different lather out of it and a crappy shave. Got my old bowl back, same razor without even stropping and got great shave. Went back to the mug, crappy... 
Honestly, something beyond unexpected. How the heck could such a simple thing matter this much?


----------



## Foltest

kayman67 said:


> Just had a strange experience these days. I've changed my mug (a less fancy word for shaving lather bowl). Not the brush or anything, just the mug itself. And got a different lather out of it and a crappy shave. Got my old bowl back, same razor without even stropping and got great shave. Went back to the mug, crappy...
> Honestly, something beyond unexpected. How the heck could such a simple thing matter this much?


Easy answer for that, mug texture makes lot of difference when preparing the lather. When I tried to make lather in smooth bowl it didn't do ****. I switched to rough ceramic bowl and since then I had no issues.


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## kayman67

Definitely something like the last thing to consider when using, but as it turns out, everything matters.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI

I use all of my soaps as sticks. The first time I face lathered was the last time that I used a bowl.


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## kayman67

A few more things to consider. 

For a month or so, I did a test with 2 razors and a b-hone (this is just a barber's hone).
In general b-hones do what they are supposed to do, but rarely are they worth mentioning. I might have one now.
I've been reading about how some Cattaraugus hones improve 8k edges and are quite competent. Now the problem with b-hones is that sometimes or maybe most of the time, they aren't exactly straightforward considering condition. So I took my time reading and doing this, to get as close as possible to that gummy feeling they wrote about.
Usually b-hones have a slower/finer side, even those that aren't double sided. And usually that site is the one with the label. But with Cattaraugus hones, the label side is the fastest. Keep this in mind if you have no papers for it. These papers are also interesting as they advise for stropping after every honing session and to finish with light short passes. This is a good approach for a variety of finishers (thuringians, coticules and so on).
With everything in good working order, I got my first razor and did 24 passes on each side. That's actually a number suggested for this particular hone at the top end. And ended up with the sharpest this razor ever been. To be fair, a razor I did struggle with sometimes, but easy-peasy now.
But just how fine is this hone? I can't tell. What I can tell is that I have a fine dressing stone and on anything similar to a Swaty, I get slurry from the dressing stone. With Cattaraugus I got slurry on both sides from the b-hone. This is what I usually use to determine if the b-hone would be interesting, as a first step, after making sure there are no integrity problems (some older hones have binder problems). This means it is quite fine on its own. Anyway, this old hone worked great again and again. For me was a bit of a disappointment really, because made my pile of stones look like completely unnecessary. And for the most part I am aware most of them are redundant, but being made so by a cheap old hone...

Second thing to consider is a bit different as well. I was wondering just what stones exactly would be a nice buy for knives (albeit for light usage) and could be used successfully for razors, too. And I found that the Chosera based Kramer stones do the job nicely. In fact I think I like more the Kramer 1000 (I also have the Chosera 1000).
Took an old razor (carbon) and established the bevel on the 1k. Got it to a very clean edge and shaving hair. Now the problem is that in a normal set, the next stone is the 5000. Most people would say that from 1 to 5 is a big jump, but didn't feel like it here. Took my time on the 5000 and for all intended purposes, the edge really started to shine. This takes a bit more because of the following. I am being asked a lot how do I know when to stop. There are markers. The sound changes. The feel changes. The swarf changes. If the stone remains as clean as possible and all is smooth, that's about it. Even if it's close to this and not the final stone, would still be enough. And finished on a coticule, soap&water, short passes, about 80 since the stone itself is slow. Coticules will make a scratch pattern of their own, but this is normal. The razor could pop hair mid air with no dragging whatsoever. Perfect shave after.
It is worth mentioning that I used no slurry on anything. I killed the edge once after setting the bevel on the 1k and did another 40 alternative passes on it. And once with the 5k. The 1k was conditioned with Atoma 400 and the 5k+coti with Atoma 1200. No stropping between them. No paste stropping done at all.


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## stringer

@kayman67 
Do you know which model number your Cattaraugus is?


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## kayman67

This one has nothing written, except Cattaraugus. 

I think I forgot to mention that on Kramer 5000 (it's the same for every single high grit stone), the surface should be cleaned as needed or after every side, with something like Atoma 1200 or a fine dressing stone. Don't over do it, doesn't take much. Sometimes my hand is just fine.


----------



## stringer

Fine. Twist my arm. There's a Cattaraugus on eBay BIN for not much. So I bought it.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI

kayman67 said:


> the surface should be cleaned as needed or after every side,


What do you mean by "after every side"?


----------



## kayman67

When flipping the razor, as previous swarf can limit the stone's capabilities to clean and polish the edge.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI

Thanks. I don't normally do half strokes, so that is what confused me.


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## kayman67

I think a clean surface gets critical the higher the grit, hitting maximum on 20k, but it does have an impact right away even on something as low as 5k, being related to how the stone would load with a particular razor.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI

No argument there. Just that 'after every side' would have meant 'after every stroke' for me. Seemed to be a bit excessive. I do use half strokes at times in the lower grits.


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## kayman67

I understand. By the time I get to that step, there's no swarf to make a difference.


----------



## stringer

I received my Cattaraugus today. Now I just have to be patient enough to let a razor get dull enough to need a touch-up. Making that job more difficult, I also got a very promising little chunk of jasper today.


----------



## kayman67

On this hone, as I read the papers, the lighter side (there is as white) is faster (more abrasive) and the darker side (there as black - is it black?) would be finer. The instructions are pretty much the same though.


----------



## stringer

So I've only tested one razor so far on the jasper. My normal test razor. Wm Elliott 1910 English steel, German ground. Full hollow. Early signs are promising. It reminds me of my translucent Arkansas. Except it's harder and finer and faster. Very impressive. It doesn't produce as smooth of a shave, but the edge is definitely more keen. I think that I will be able to dial edges in pretty nice with some loaded strops or even by finishing with a few mellowing strokes on a coticule. I don't know how this thing would do bringing a 5k edge up to finishing level or anything like that. But I can tell you that it took a very sharp and smooth Arkie edge and improved it.


----------



## kayman67

Using some water/ballistol mixture might improve the sharpness while keeping the aggressive side under control.


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

Where did the jasper come from?


----------



## stringer

eBay seller. They have a bunch of cool jasper stuff. Now that I know I like the little one I'll probably get one a little bigger. Not full size bench. But 6x2 or so. They have Owyhee jasper which is what the razor forums covet. And the prices are very competitive if you're looking for a finisher on a budget.

https://ebay.com/usr/custommadesharpenersandkinves

Hopefully their rocks are better than their spelling


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## kayman67

He's a very nice guy.


----------



## stringer

I did another 50 laps on the jasper and then another 50 laps on my fastest strop. I was much much more careful and methodical. I still managed to give myself three little weepers around my Adam's apple. Smooth, but dangerous. Especially if you have any lateral movement whatsoever.


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## kayman67

So true! It won't show mercy.


----------



## kayman67

Another way I get edges is like this. Did one today. 

Took a coticule and killed the edge (on the side of the stone passing once or twice, I did it twice). Made some medium thick slurry and did some back and forth half strokes until it got fairly darker. If it's fast, this doesn't take more than a minute. If not, well, it might take a while. And finished with alternative strokes edge trailing. Again, based on speed these may vary from just a few. After, paddle stropped on chromium oxide for 20 times (mine is quite fast, others might be slower) and iron oxide for polishing more about 40 times. Hand stropped a few times. That's all it took. 
And I have this strange edge I can't cut myself with, but I don't feel any pulling or dragging either and it's really comfortable. 

I was thinking about different ways of getting an edge and one thing that is almost always necessary and essential, seems to be stropping.
Stropping in itself is as demanding as sharpening or honing. I've been reading many times that it takes about a year or so to understand and master stropping, on a daily basis routine. That's some claim. I'm not sure how accurate it is, but the emphasis it puts on proper technique is real. At this level, poor stropping can undo anything good in a single pass. That's all it takes to ruin the edge. And stropping more, won't put the edge back. I've tried with a huge variety of strops. Never worked. It's always back to stone honing.
Hanging strops have the tendency to be more forgiving in some cases, while paddles in others. In my experience, if the paddle has even the slightest give, people are getting proficient with it faster. All it takes is to adjust the pressure not to flex the razor. With hanging strops is a bit more problematic keeping tension, pressure and rolling just right at the same time. But getting that much needed convexity is more natural with a hanging strop.


----------



## Desert Rat

stringer said:


> eBay seller. They have a bunch of cool jasper stuff. Now that I know I like the little one I'll probably get one a little bigger. Not full size bench. But 6x2 or so. They have Owyhee jasper which is what the razor forums covet. And the prices are very competitive if you're looking for a finisher on a budget.
> 
> https://ebay.com/usr/custommadesharpenersandkinves
> 
> Hopefully their rocks are better than their spelling


Not sure about the science behind it and I'm not a geologist but I never could get much benefit from jasper. Feels kind of like a hard Arkansas stone that has been burnished like a mirror only much slower.


----------



## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> Not sure about the science behind it and I'm not a geologist but I never could get much benefit from jasper. Feels kind of like a hard Arkansas stone that has been burnished like a mirror only much slower.



I'm not sure what to think of it. It is too slow to use without something else as a pre-finisher. I don't think you'd get very far very fast if you started with a 4k edge and then tried to go to the jasper for instance. However, I've tried it now as a finisher following several different pre-finishers (12k synthetic, translucent Ark and a fine coticule). In all cases the jasper increased keenness, and reduced smoothness. Lots of weepers and contact slices, like the first time I tried to shave with a Japanese wedge. Irritation that can probably be avoided with less pressure.


----------



## kayman67

Yeah, I've been writing this several times already. Not uncommon for me and sometimes I give up altogether as I just don't have the time to write everything in one go and by the time I read what I've written already, I must go again...

Anyway, it's a lovely afternoon here, I have a good feeling.

Today I'm rewriting about an unusual barber hone. I was actually surprised so few people knew about it.

S.R. Droescher was smart enough to establish a name for good quality shaving products that he never made (except maybe razors, but that's debatable). A true businessman.
SRD did this from 1891 until 1924, selling stuff from very reputable sources, under his own brands.

One of these products, is the Ambicut SRD. As far as I was able to find, it's one of a kind approach. Ambicut started as a synthetic part glued to a natural layer. And looked like it was made for a higher class. It had a nice wood box and a slurry stone (divided mind you), while most b-hones were cramped in much thinner cardboard boxes.

First about the synthetic part, as it seems it was common to all Ambicut hones. You might read about it as being the coarse side, but I am just not sure it ever was. My experience with this side was exactly the opposite. It polished very well. Nothing to call remotely coarse.

The natural side was a thuringian layer. SRD did sell stones directly from Escher, but not only and this makes impossible to know the exact manufacturer (well, manufacturer might not be the right word anyway). Because thuringian in general doesn't play nice with anything except water, I couldn't try the other side with something else.

Two types of layers were used, a light green one and a dark blue - black one. The first was as expected. I already had several light green and yellow green Eschers that covered anything I would expect. But those dark blue - black ones can be real gems. I read about them several times before I managed to find one (a really outstanding Escher in fact and never saw another since). When I found the Ambicut, I didn't think twice. I've read that barbers didn't care much about this layer as it was too fine and too slow for them. And so it was.

First time I used it, I killed the edge and tried to get it back. Took a lot of slurry plus another ~150 full x-strokes (just testing thuri side). That's slow, really slow. I got this beautiful fine delicate sharp edge. This might be the edge most people want from a thuringian. The finish looked more like from a very fine jnat.
Another way I used it, was with an edge from a 2k, just being there (I don't know if you guys do this thing when the edge just starts to cut arm hair, do usually 3-8 more light passes and move to the next stone so you get a buffer) and went to slurry and so on and so forth, finishing this time on the synthetic side, 60 times dry and 20 under running water. That's a lot of passes. I've checked the edge after every 20. The very edge got really polished.
Except these two times, I used it as pure finisher, after 8-12k, with water.

At some point, Ambicut changed the natural layer to a hard black arkansas. I'd say unusual for the period and for how the synthetic part performed. There's very little info about this, no one knows what slurry or dressing stone was used (looks like none survived). I would have liked to know what the surface was like when new and what the dressing stone was supposed to do.

I imagine that using a hard black ark wasn't the best idea (I would love one now though) and the hone was changed to both sides synthetic, also having a synthetic dressing stone. Again, I never used one, so I can't comment more about the performance.

The nice part is that the Ambicut is pretty much obscure. You might be able to find it for very reasonable prices. I have no doubt that only very good thuringian layers were used.


----------



## Desert Rat

Not sure how many of you lurk or participate on any straight razor forums but to me anyway they seem to perpetuate the myth that razor honing takes some kind of special talent or skill, like honing is some kind of black magic shrouded in mystery. There is a learning curve and I have had some problem razors and some challenges learning how to use new to me hones but had I paid attention to what was being said on straight razor forums I would have been really intimidated.

So I would like to know how the learning curve has been for you guys? Is it harder than sharpening knifes? Did you just get a dull razor hone it up and start shaving with a decent edge right away or did you need new equipment and have to learn how to use it ect?


----------



## Matus

I had a nice little Nakayma kamisori from Watanabe, really exciting stones and some synthetics and I got a strop from a small maker in Norway. But I got 2 lightly used and ready to shave from an experienced user (all these guys seem to have dozens of razors , don’t they, @Slipstenar). Still - with all the help and explanations I got I found the learning curve pretty steep. The main reason for that being, that you need to learn 3 things at the same time: shaving, honing and stropping. Failing one of them yields a poor shave. Plus having a relatively thick facial hair does not make it any easier. I am still experiencing with the setup I have and finding my way. I got better in all 3 categories, but still have a room for improvement. P. S. I do not use any compounds for the stripping, although they would probably make it easier to get a better edge, but I am trying to stay with just natural stones and cloth/leather strop.


----------



## stringer

I participate in B&B. I agree that the old timers make it seem like it's very difficult and don't try and learn to shave and hone at the same time and yada yada. I shaved with the first edge I sharpened. It went fine. Since then I've had trouble with a few where the shave was a little rough or harsh or the heel needed more work or whatever. So I gave those another round and they are fine. I thought maybe I just wasn't buying difficult enough razors. So I added some Japanese and Swedish and Pre-Civil War wedges because the old timers say they are harder to sharpen. They also get sharp really easily with whichever stone I hone them on. Granted I've been sharpening knives a couple times a week for for 15 years. But I think I could teach anyone to do it in about an hour. But...YMMV. As they like to say.


I was going to just do a 7 day set for myself. But things have got a little out of control. Luckily my wife is very understanding.

Here's the current daily rotation





On the workbench





And just a few others in the project pile.


----------



## Jville

Desert Rat said:


> Not sure how many of you lurk or participate on any straight razor forums but to me anyway they seem to perpetuate the myth that razor honing takes some kind of special talent or skill, like honing is some kind of black magic shrouded in mystery. There is a learning curve and I have had some problem razors and some challenges learning how to use new to me hones but had I paid attention to what was being said on straight razor forums I would have been really intimidated.
> 
> So I would like to know how the learning curve has been for you guys? Is it harder than sharpening knifes? Did you just get a dull razor hone it up and start shaving with a decent edge right away or did you need new equipment and have to learn how to use it ect?



I'll be honest, I was having a hard time getting the to pass the hht test until I started using cbn sprays on my strops. It really helped me. I've only sharpened once or twice. I'm still a little intimated by setting a bevel and doing the whole shabang, but I'm really comfortable with honing now. And as long as I hone I don't really have to sharpen much anyways. I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't have to sharpen for a year or so.


----------



## musicman980

I'm also at B&B. 

I started honing shortly after I started straight shaving, and luckily I had a razor with good geometry and a la grise coticule that was relatively straight forward to figure out. For me, nothing complicates learning to hone more than a razor with bad geometry. If the razor sits flat on the stones, most of the time you just hone it until it's done. If it has wonky geometry, then some parts don't touch the stone, some parts only touch the stone briefly as they pass over the side of the stone, pressure becomes uneven... It's just a hassle.

Currently I'm into localized pressure stropping on my coticule. It's working incredibly, and works very well for my razors with less than ideal geometry. All part of the journey.


----------



## stringer

As far as equipment. Here's what I've bought:
Tiny Surgical Black Ark - I use this as a swarf eraser
Tiny Translucent Ark - Travel Kit
4x2 Translucent Ark - I love this stone probably my favorite edge, with just a few swipes on CBN leather then clean leather
Tiny Jasper - sharper and harsher than the Ark, but similar
2 Tiny Coticules - I like them, don't love them. There is a little bit of voodoo with coticules and Jnats, I'm much more comfortable getting consistent edges with arks or synthetics
Shapton Pro 12k - easy peasy breezy. Kind of boring with all the other cool crap out there you can get, but affordable
Chinese 12k - I actually used it to deburr culinary edges sometimes, not much else.

I want to buy a serious awasedo finisher. But I mean a real serious collector grade one. I keep putting it off because life. I think the Jnats and coticules are a much trickier way to go personally. So much variability. And with the coticule, the stones' max potential just might not be good enough. Whereas a good ark or a good high grit synthetic is easier and will definitely be "sharp enough". Now what your skin and beard need...Who knows.


----------



## Desert Rat

musicman980 said:


> I'm also at B&B.
> 
> I started honing shortly after I started straight shaving, and luckily I had a razor with good geometry and a la grise coticule that was relatively straight forward to figure out. For me, nothing complicates learning to hone more than a razor with bad geometry. If the razor sits flat on the stones, most of the time you just hone it until it's done. If it has wonky geometry, then some parts don't touch the stone, some parts only touch the stone briefly as they pass over the side of the stone, pressure becomes uneven... It's just a hassle.
> 
> Currently I'm into localized pressure stropping on my coticule. It's working incredibly, and works very well for my razors with less than ideal geometry. All part of the journey.


That was the main thing I learned and probably the hard way, razors are not perfect. I have a couple of long western straights that gave me fits. Nothing is perfect and them longer straight bladed razors seem to be more prone to a bow or twist that give me problems. Had I started on one of those my frustration might have got the best of me.
Would you share with us how you deal with it through "localized pressure stropping" ?


----------



## musicman980

Desert Rat said:


> That was the main thing I learned and probably the hard way, razors are not perfect. I have a couple of long western straights that gave me fits. Nothing is perfect and them longer straight bladed razors seem to be more prone to a bow or twist that give me problems. Had I started on one of those my frustration might have got the best of me.
> Would you share with us how you deal with it through "localized pressure stropping" ?



That's funny you mention the length as being an issue with honing. I've heard many times that kamisori get sharper than western straights, or that you have to be extra careful with a kamisori or it will cut you (as if it's sharper). I think it's just the shorter length that leads to way better geometry. No wobble/no problem.

So I just made up the term localized pressure stropping, can't think of anything else to call it. Most of my honing was typically pulling a razor across a stone one handed, or two handed with both hands at either end of the razor. This often works out, but for razors with any degree of warp, often times parts of the edge don't contact the stone until they hit the very side edge of the stone. If you localize the pressure at the edge 3/4" of the stone and work your blade in sections, you can be sure you are contacting every bit of the edge. Just don't focus the pressure right on the edge of the stone! That might damage the edge. I am now trying this method on all of my razors and my edges have never been better.

Edge leading works fine, but I'm finding edge trailing to work wonders on my hard coticule. Something about edge leading on hard coticules taking a bit more effort to get good results, while stropping on it damages the edge apex less. Just a theory.

Here's a video I just took. First I do straight lines, then I blend them. I do this until I can treetop my hair at 3/8" above the skin.


----------



## kayman67

It's easy until it's not. Many variables at play that can change the outcome.

Let's consider one possible thing from the last example with spine leading passes on a coticule. Somewhere above I said something about doing this before starting stropping for the final edge. By pure chance was also on a coticule. 
Why this method works better sometimes is due to the fact that edge leading strokes, with some razors and stones, will generate micro chipping. This can occur even at a much later stage, but it can start very early and have no clue.
And we read about stones or razors people struggle with, but they never try something as unintuitively (is this adverb a word?) different as spine leading. Now, if you ever looked at honing sessions on YouTube, for instance, was this even mentioned somewhere, have you seen it?

PS. That's a nice coticule. I know people buying coticules for years and never been able to get a decent edge out of them.


----------



## Desert Rat

That's thinking outside the box. Thanks @musicman980 !

I learned to take a few spine trailing strokes as a way of finishing on Arks. Not sure how much merit it has but I still do it if I want all that I can get off that stone. If it works on Arks I would think it would be even better on softer stones. It's not common to see it used on razors but I know some do it.


----------



## stringer

Here are my questions @musicman980 or anybody else that's into restoration.

1. How can I drill straight pin holes with no drill press? Both on scales that I'm making and old ones that need new pin holes. Like for converting shorties. Mine are always crooked.

2. What do you use for finish on hardwood scales? And how do you set them up

3. Do you use internal washers when you rescale vintage razors?

I finally figured out a good method that works for me for getting scales off of razors after mutilating several. I bought a tiny little pair of end nippers from Amazon. They didn't cut flush enough to get under the pin. So I just smashed them against the belt sander a couple of times to give each side of the pliers a flush chisel grind. Now it pops those suckers right off. If I want to save the washers I drill it out. But that's a much bigger pain.


----------



## stringer

Here's a pic of the Swedish frameback with no back. Next to it I put one with the proper spine cladding so you can see what's missing. On the other one it appears to be a piece of brass plated steel that's clamped/forged down onto the spine

Edit* part of my message got lost. Can I fix this somehow? I have limited tools but a lot of willpower.


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## Matus

1) get a ‘machinist’s cube’ or how is that piece of steel full of holes of different sizes called

2) sand up to 1000 or even 2000 grit and finish with 0000 steel wool. Than mix some TruOil with , say, some Epifanes boat lacquer and thinner. Apply and once the whole scale is coated immediately wipe all the excess and polish a bit with a cloth or polishing paper towel. Repeat 5+ times.


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

2) I like Tru oil. A lot of people use CA. I think that some people use Ren wax.

3) I would use internal washers. I didn't use to, but then you will sometimes get scratching on the tang.


----------



## musicman980

kayman67 said:


> It's easy until it's not. Many variables at play that can change the outcome.
> ...
> 
> And we read about stones or razors people struggle with, but they never try something as unintuitively (is this adverb a word?) different as spine leading. Now, if you ever looked at honing sessions on YouTube, for instance, was this even mentioned somewhere, have you seen it?
> 
> PS. That's a nice coticule. I know people buying coticules for years and never been able to get a decent edge out of them.



I remember reading a thread or two on spine leading strokes several years ago, but never focused on the technique. One of a million techniques people throw out there. You’re absolutely right, every new technique we try is always the best thing ever, until it stops working and we search for a new technique. That’s the journey! And thank you, it’s a looker and a fast, hard, and fine coticule. 



stringer said:


> Here are my questions @musicman980 or anybody else that's into restoration.
> 
> 1. How can I drill straight pin holes with no drill press? Both on scales that I'm making and old ones that need new pin holes. Like for converting shorties. Mine are always crooked.
> 
> 2. What do you use for finish on hardwood scales? And how do you set them up
> 
> 3. Do you use internal washers when you rescale vintage razors?



1. I used to use a pin vise to drill and have had my fair share of failures with crooked holes. What I settled on was drilling the pivot hole prior to final shaping and thinning, and then sticking the full length (maybe 6”) 1/16” wire through the hole and commence the shaping and thinning. The long wire will help you see more clearly when the hole is straight in every which way, and you can sand down certain parts of the scales to correct for the inevitable wonky hole. 

2. I don’t  I use ebony, goncalo alves, pink ivory, and other hard oily woods that don’t necessarily need it. At least the scales I’ve made don’t seem to need it yet. I like the matte look so if I ever use my walnut, birdseye maple, or redbud I might apply a wax. 

3. If I can avoid them I do, because the friction between the wood/horn/ivory is best IMO. However if the blade doesn’t center properly I will use them accordingly. 

I love those DIY flush cutters btw. And sorry I don’t know how you would apply a new backing for that frame back...


----------



## Desert Rat

I finally got around to testing the synthetic coticule, black and white hone or whatever name it goes by. I took a proven razor and bread knifed the edge off of it brought it back and shave tested it. I use the broken corn off that stone to raise a slurry. It speeds it up some (still really slow). The stone has kind of a chalk like texture turning to a buttery smooth feel honing on it with water. The shave wasn't bad at all and I was able to go against the grain on my upper lip which is kind of my litmus test for an edge. A little more burn than I am accustomed to after I applied after shave but still not bad. I don't have a clue what that hone is made out of or how but I think it's capable enough hone has a finisher. I don't have the patience for it and it brings nothing to the table my other stones don't do better, my curiosity has been fully satisfied.


----------



## kayman67

This is so me!


----------



## stringer

I got a Shapton Pro 1500 and a new baby coticule. Now I have 3 little vintage Coticule/bbw combos. I've been messing with the jasper and Arks for a few weeks. Time for a little coticule shootout. I'll do pictures as I go along. I just spent the last couple of hours honing so it's not going to happen tonight. I'm just going to set the mood while my thoughts are fresh. I'll test one razor per day and let you know what I think.

All razors are in good shape. They came from my "No Major Issues" box. Which means they can just be cleaned and honed and used. Some have wonky bevels/chips/minor pitting or blemishes. But nothing that will affect shaving that can't be fixed on the stones. I did three razors on each coticule. Each razor has had the bevel fixed and set with the Shapton Pro 1500. After that each got the exact same progression, just with different coticules.

Dilucot
3 rounds
1. Medium slurry generated by the other coticules - 50 laps
2. Dilute by 1/2 - 50 laps
3. Flood with fresh water, drop of propylene glycol - 50 laps
4. Plain linen strop - 50 laps
5. Horsehide Shell Strop - 50 laps



Coticule #1 - 6 X 1 3/8 - Natural combo. Fast and hard. Visible grain. Creamy color with lateral streaks of BBW visible on the sides. One line that actually appears to be BBW material. Doesn't catch a fingernail or impact sharpening. The sound is higher pitched than the other 2. The edge feels like there is some bite to this stone. But it feels smooth and cold to the touch of your finger.

1. Oxford Germania Solingen 5/8 Hollow
2. Solingen Red Imp Wedge 5/8 Half Hollow
3. Torrey Our Beauty MA 4/8 Hollow

Coticule #2 - 4 3/4 X 1 1/4 - Glued combo. Softer and finer but still fast. No visible grain. Surface is kind of blotchy though. Patches where there is more yellow, blue, or pink. Smoother feedback, not as much feeling of bite. Lower pitch sound, more muffled. Generally I like the edges off this one better but I like the first one for being fast at the middle portion. This is the first time I'm using the third one so we'll see.

4. Union Razor Works NY 5/8 Hollow
5. Unknown Solingen 5/8 Half Hollow
6. New England Razor English Steel 5/8 Hollow

Coticule #3 - 5 X 1 - Glued combo. Very similar to stone #2 except more yellow. No pink and blue splotches. No visible grain. Seems finer and softer than the first one.

7. Genco Pyramid 6/8 Hollow
8. Solingen Red Imp 5/8 Hollow
9. Bowdin's Art MN 5/8 Hollow

To be continued...


----------



## brooksie967

Dig deep enough into B&B and straightrazorplace and you'll find me (same username). Used to be heavily into the forums but got out of there (thankfully) and found this place!


----------



## stringer

I belong to B&B but KKF is my home.

You never know what's going to set those guys off and there's a lot of weird factions.

Here's some more teaser pics.












And here's a video of a HHT. This is the one in the upper left of that picture. Union Razor Works NY (not to be confused with Union Cutlery Co., Olean, NY or Union Razor Cutlery, Union City, GA, or Union Razor Co., Tidioute, PA)


----------



## brooksie967

I love honing on coticules, I love their edges on kitchen knives but after trying about a dozen of them I learned their shaving edges aren't compatible with my face. Jnat all the way. I'd really like to get a large one for knives again.


----------



## brooksie967

Desert Rat said:


> I finally got around to testing the synthetic coticule, black and white hone or whatever name it goes by. I took a proven razor and bread knifed the edge off of it brought it back and shave tested it. I use the broken corn off that stone to raise a slurry. It speeds it up some (still really slow). The stone has kind of a chalk like texture turning to a buttery smooth feel honing on it with water. The shave wasn't bad at all and I was able to go against the grain on my upper lip which is kind of my litmus test for an edge. A little more burn than I am accustomed to after I applied after shave but still not bad. I don't have a clue what that hone is made out of or how but I think it's capable enough hone has a finisher. I don't have the patience for it and it brings nothing to the table my other stones don't do better, my curiosity has been fully satisfied.



Sounds like you've done your homework about it being a synth! Did you do the acid test?


----------



## stringer

Day 1
Oxford German





I deliberately picked my weakest finishing coticule first. I actually use this one the most. It's the larger one from the pic above. It's fantastically fast from bevel set to pre finish and then it never really gets any better. The shave was as I expected. Plenty of sharp enough for my cheeks and mustache. My neck was rough. I usually do one pass South and one pass North. With this coticule I always get a little worried because the south pass it seems to just barely get through. But then you do the other pass and a little tugging, but it's alright. Beats the hell out of contact slices from an ultra lively edge any day.
And then you think, well it's not really that close, it didn't feel that close. But you wash your face and it looks pretty good. And you think well it won't last. But it does. It just works. No thrills but no risks either.

Day 2 - This morning





This one is quality. I was impressed. The coticule plus a little heavier grind is a real winning combo for me. The red imp 132 wedge is about a half hollow. It has a sister the 133 that is about 3/4 hollow. They are great razors with terrible scales. I got lucky on this one, the scales are great. So was the shave. The extra weight eliminated the tugging problem I had with the lighter blade yesterday.

Tomorrow I'm using a Torrey "Our Beauty".

Coincidentally, I got a 1890s Torrey 4 Step Paddle Strop/Hone in the mail today and the hone portion is a coticule. So I'll have to pick out 3 more razors to hone and include it in the competition. I made a little video to show it off.


----------



## brooksie967

I've had a few imps and similar razors with different branding over the years; i've always been fond of the heavier grinds and square points on them. Simple no-nonesense razors.


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## brooksie967

I should have made mention on those scales too. The three pin are by far the most desirable for imps and yours are in great condition as you mentioned!


----------



## Desert Rat

brooksie967 said:


> Sounds like you've done your homework about it being a synth! Did you do the acid test?


No tests. It's just apparent after a little time with the stone.


----------



## Desert Rat

stringer said:


> Day 1
> Oxford German
> 
> View attachment 70783
> 
> I deliberately picked my weakest finishing coticule first. I actually use this one the most. It's the larger one from the pic above. It's fantastically fast from bevel set to pre finish and then it never really gets any better. The shave was as I expected. Plenty of sharp enough for my cheeks and mustache. My neck was rough. I usually do one pass South and one pass North. With this coticule I always get a little worried because the south pass it seems to just barely get through. But then you do the other pass and a little tugging, but it's alright. Beats the hell out of contact slices from an ultra lively edge any day.
> And then you think, well it's not really that close, it didn't feel that close. But you wash your face and it looks pretty good. And you think well it won't last. But it does. It just works. No thrills but no risks either.
> 
> Day 2 - This morning
> View attachment 70784
> 
> 
> This one is quality. I was impressed. The coticule plus a little heavier grind is a real winning combo for me. The red imp 132 wedge is about a half hollow. It has a sister the 133 that is about 3/4 hollow. They are great razors with terrible scales. I got lucky on this one, the scales are great. So was the shave. The extra weight eliminated the tugging problem I had with the lighter blade yesterday.
> 
> Tomorrow I'm using a Torrey "Our Beauty".
> 
> Coincidentally, I got a 1890s Torrey 4 Step Paddle Strop/Hone in the mail today and the hone portion is a coticule. So I'll have to pick out 3 more razors to hone and include it in the competition. I made a little video to show it off.



Good stuff Stringer. Love that Torrey paddle strop.
I seen one of those red imp razors today at a antique store. Wanted a little more then I was willing to pay but it was in real good condition and a handsome razor so perhaps it wasn't that far out there.

Are you using any particular honing method with the coticules or just winging it? Plain water?


----------



## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> Good stuff Stringer. Love that Torrey paddle strop.
> I seen one of those red imp razors today at a antique store. Wanted a little more then I was willing to pay but it was in real good condition and a handsome razor so perhaps it wasn't that far out there.
> 
> Are you using any particular honing method with the coticules or just winging it? Plain water?



Here's my progression after bevel set on SP 1500. This is a little bit overkill on purpose. You can't really overhone on coticules, but this should be enough strokes to get close to maxing out the potential of each stone.

Each razor has had the bevel fixed and set with the Shapton Pro 1500. After that each got the exact same progression, just with different coticules.

Dilucot
3 rounds
1. Medium slurry generated by the other coticules - 50 laps
2. Dilute by 1/2 - 50 laps
3. Flood with fresh water, drop of propylene glycol - 50 laps
4. Plain linen strop - 50 laps
5. Horsehide Shell Strop - 50 laps

The three coticules are described above.

Today I used a Torrey with faux tortoise scales. This one is a little bit of a lightweight for me. Everything about it is dainty. Thin spine, 9/16

, light scales. The shave was uneventful. Plenty keen enough. Very comfy, especially around the mustache. I would like to find one of these in 6/8. I have one but it's in really rough shape and by the time I get rid of all the rust and pitting it will probably end up a 4/8.







Tomorrow I move to coticule candidate #2. First test razor will be Union Razor Works, NY with bone scales.


----------



## stringer

Coticule #2 is a true finisher in my opinion. I would not hesitate to sell a razor finished on this hone so being shave ready. That first one is just not quite there. I get irritation from tugging on my neck and the against the grain pass on the mustache is not as close or as smooth cutting as I prefer. That is a delicate balance, because when you try to up the keenness it's difficult to maintain the smoothness. I really enjoyed my shave with the Imp wedge. But that's an exceptional razor in great shape with a heavier grind. The 1890s hollow grinds on the other two just didn't get enough firepower out of this stone to suit me. I don't think it would take much to bump them up. And back to that balancing act. I never get tugging with my Japanese razors finished on CBN. But I never get contact slices or weepers with a razor finished on a coticule. 
Candidate #2 gets razors plenty sharp. Still really smooth. Yesterday I used the Union Cutlery Works with bone scales. Heavy but even hone wear. The shave was excellent. No pulling. This stone feels creamier and finer when you are using it and the edge produced reflects that feedback. 






Today I used a stainless steel scaled razor that is simply marked "SOLINGEN". I think that these stainless steel versions were surgical razors. At least, I have a similar Heljestrand that I'm certain was a surgical razor. Heavier grind. I would call it half hollow. The blade width is less than 5/8 but it still feels substantial in your hand due to the grind and the heft of the steel scales. This thing is a precision instrument. I will probably sell all of these razors eventually but I predict I'll hold on to this one for quite awhile. It's pretty special. The grind is perfect for me and with this coticule edge it becomes the velvet squeegee. I did a rub with alum block after and there was no burn whatever.


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

stringer said:


> View attachment 71035


I would call that a near wedge or quarter hollow at most, not that there is anything wrong with heavy grinds. 

This is my type of grind.


----------



## stringer

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> I would call that a near wedge or quarter hollow at most, not that there is anything wrong with heavy grinds.
> 
> This is my type of grind.




That's a bellied double hollow. I like those too. They don't do so great off of coticules for me. Too much chatter. The classifications of the grind types are all pretty subjective, that's why I include the pictures. There are so many different ways of achieving the grind. And the words changed in meaning a lot over the years.

Here is 7/8 Hollow



I consider this one to be about a 3/4 hollow







I have stuff that's etched Extra Hollow Grind or Double Hollow Grind that has a heavier grind than that stainless one.








Half hollow












Here's what I would call a near wedge.


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

stringer said:


> The classifications of the grind types are all pretty subjective, that's why I include the pictures. There are so many different ways of achieving the grind. And the words changed in meaning a lot over the years.




My personal method of classifying a grind is to mentally place a straight edge on the hollow, if the sagitta is half way to the center line of the razor, then that grind would be ~ half hollow, etc... That at least takes the subjectivity out of it because these dimensions could actually be measured, but as you say the whole thing is so variable that it's pointless to argue about.


----------



## kayman67

I need more razors 

I found this No. 8 and it was so used that both sides were as one, really burnished and ultra smooth. I decided to experiment some things. I lapped the hone, started conditioning (it's still far from fully done). I had time to only test how fast this can recover a killed edge. From not cutting anything to shave capable took 40 passes on each side and another 40 on clean leather (I just decided to stay with 40 for a bit of symmetry, I did cut tests every few passes on the hone). Now, it wasn't the best shave that razor has to offer, but there's room for improvement since the hone was just starting to work. Under is the other one.


I'm curious what was the condition you found yours.

Moving on to coticules, these are just crazy stones. I would say more than Jnats. The big one right here gives such a comfortable shaving, it's on par with best Jnats I used or know to date. Such a good stone. And what's interesting is the fact that it shouldn't be, based on the noise it makes (you would think it's gravel even without slurry), unless under running water when gets dead silent. I've looked at the edge and the pattern is super fine with no scratches at all. Usually with coticules, the need for stropping is a given. So I tried something after this (I did it before many times, but not with the same results). I stropped on the finest Jende poly strop (with same compound obviously, as the strops are the same without the compound, being color coded just for convenience and not preloaded). That's 600k I think. I'm a bit sad I found out about the sales just too late. All out of stock now. I would have wanted to buy some more of this. Anyway, I did just 20 passes. After, I got maybe the closest shave possible with anything. Still very comfortable and no signs of being too sharp or aggressive. First pass was so close, I barely could feel anything left and I just didn't do the second. As a side note, it lasted longer than a 2 or 3 passes. I might have some idea why, but not entirely sure. Also, the edge was very resilient for some reason. I don't know what's with some naturals that have this effect to such a strong level.


Another reason coticules are crazy, is the small one. It just gets to a mirror like surface level on its own (that's why, while still dry, it reflected the light and my camera wanted to focus there all the time). It is super hard and very very fine. This tops anything I tried in terms of sharpness. Imagine something like a glassy translucent, only with the added benefits of a very very fine slurry to boot and high speed in general, plus just water. Gets back to being glossy very easy (doing the same with a translucent would be a pain in every way imaginable). As a particular behavior, on this razors stick like on nothing else, even with a very narrow bevel and taped. On the first one, nothing does, ever. And with this one stropping does pretty much nothing improving the edge.


----------



## stringer

There was some weird funk on my Cattaraugus when I got it. Nothing crazy, just years of dirt and swarf and oil. It doesn't feel like it would do great in any prolonged soak so I just scrubbed the black side with dish soap and a non scratch scotch Brite pad. I ignored the other side. Then I lapped the finishing side on synthetic stones. I tried sand paper at first but the binder kind of gummed it up. So I went to the Debado 200. Then a worn cheap diamond plate. Then a well soaked Rika 5000 to polish it out a bit. You can still see some of the white particles from the Rika. I'm happy with my progress with it so far. I use it with water. It can take an edge off of that gritty coticule and make it sharper without losing the comfort. And quickly. I see it as kind of cheating. It kind of feels like using a diamond coated steel on a kitchen knife a little bit. And then you are like, why I am using this silly thing when I have dozens of more appropriate tools. Why? Because it's convenient. And it's not really like using a diamond steel. Big sharp particles jammed together in a pretty firm binder. But polished and burnished so they don't scratch deep like diamonds. I don't know how long it would take to start seeing edge degradation. Probably not in a human lifetime if you supplemented it with a really good stropping routine. I haven't used any other barber hones but this one is definitely impressive.











It does absorb water a little too. There's only about 30 seconds between these photos


----------



## stringer

Today's razor was an 1890s New England Razor Co 5/8 Hollow with black rubber scales. 

I made a video too.


----------



## stringer

Here's my whole process start to finish.

Bevel Set on 1500


Dilucot


Stropping


HHT


----------



## Desert Rat

Good job on the videos and I enjoyed the history lesson too.
What do you know about the magnetic razors? I guess more than one company made them?


----------



## kayman67

I agree! It was like a journey. I really enjoyed it.


----------



## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> Good job on the videos and I enjoyed the history lesson too.
> What do you know about the magnetic razors? I guess more than one company made them?



Lots of razors were marketed as magnetic. Mostly seemed to be a Solingen thing but I've seen Sheffield and American razors with it too.
The most common ones
Griffon Carbo Magnetic - imported from Solingen by Silberstein of NY
I think that's the name, I would have to look it up. I also suspect these were made by Camillus/Germania/Imperial.
Boker Damascus Magnetic Steel - Solingen/USA. They also did lots of private label that had similar markings
EMDE Bros - Electro Magnetic
D. Peres - Magnet Diamond Steel

There were probably also steel manufacturers selling steel called Magnetic and so razors made with that steel would be Magnetic steel razors. 

And this is just off the top of my head.


----------



## stringer

kayman67 said:


> I agree! It was like a journey. I really enjoyed it.



Thank you. My goal is to demystify it a little. Compared to all the variables with knives, razors can be very simple and straightforward and fun if you keep it simple and straightforward and fun. No crazy formulas or millions of steps or expensive finishers or messing with compounds and sprays. 2 stones, 2 strops.


----------



## kayman67

True. This being said, I still find myself looking at some high end Jnats that I don't need... 

Speaking of expensive, the Norton hone just got over 1000$. 1125 if I remember correctly. I'm pretty sure that by now it's not used only for competition axes, as I've been reading more and more about it being considered the best 30k solution out there.


----------



## stringer

I'm not saying that I practice what I preach. Just that it's possible to have very simple solutions that work very well. I had to do a lot of testing to figure that out as I know you can relate.


----------



## stringer

I uploaded some more videos. 
The other two knives are
J. Wostenholm and Son EBRO
And a FrankenFriodur. I bought a 4 piece lot of Friodurs with no scales wonky bevels and heavily tapered toes. Good practice razors.

wostie bevel set


Wostie on Torrey coticule


FrankenFriodur bevel set


FrankenFriodur on Torrey coticule


----------



## Desert Rat

I wish I had them video's when I started. The first one you did Stringer I consider the most important because I think most of the problems are guys not getting the bevel set and then blaming the finishing stone ect. Plenty of discouraged guys out there.

Here is my Magnetic, It's a "Stone Fisher" which was a Seattle hardware store. Things are actually magnetic, odd...






I can't get over how well I like that little JNAT hone I bought from Alex. I still know next to nothing about JNATS but I am looking at another one trying not to spend money on other stones in the mean time.


----------



## stringer

I haven't come across that magnetic etch before. I looked up Stone Fisher. They were a dry goods store that became a department store chain. They started in Tacoma and didn't open a location in Seattle until 1900. It was there for a long time and the razor has pretty classic styling. Call it 1900-1930.

I don't think Stone Fisher manufactured anything. If it's not stamped Germany somewhere then I would guess it was made private label by some member of the Cattaraugus branch Case, Champlin, Korn, Robeson, Geneva, Kinfolks, etc or by Boker USA or some similar outfit. It's also very murky with all the shenanigans going on with people trying to avoid tariffs. In my research I've found ads where steel wholesalers are advertising in trade journals that they can sell you Sheffield steel German forged razor blanks that get shipped to Canada first to beat the tariffs. There's all kinds of crazy Congressional testimony where people are arguing for or against the tariffs. Saying that the Germans are undercutting the prices with their new machines that produce better razors cheaper. And the English are undercutting the prices by producing crappy razors cheaper. Frederick Reynolds is a frequent target of scorn. If I come across more info I'll let you know.


----------



## stringer

Here's the Stone Fisher Building


----------



## Desert Rat

stringer said:


> I haven't come across that magnetic etch before. I looked up Stone Fisher. They were a dry goods store that became a department store chain. They started in Tacoma and didn't open a location in Seattle until 1900. It was there for a long time and the razor has pretty classic styling. Call it 1900-1930.
> 
> I don't think Stone Fisher manufactured anything. If it's not stamped Germany somewhere then I would guess it was made private label by some member of the Cattaraugus branch Case, Champlin, Korn, Robeson, Geneva, Kinfolks, etc or by Boker USA or some similar outfit. It's also very murky with all the shenanigans going on with people trying to avoid tariffs. In my research I've found ads where steel wholesalers are advertising in trade journals that they can sell you Sheffield steel German forged razor blanks that get shipped to Canada first to beat the tariffs. There's all kinds of crazy Congressional testimony where people are arguing for or against the tariffs. Saying that the Germans are undercutting the prices with their new machines that produce better razors cheaper. And the English are undercutting the prices by producing crappy razors cheaper. Frederick Reynolds is a frequent target of scorn. If I come across more info I'll let you know.


Thanks for that Stringer.
Always been shady stuff going on and there still is. I have an older knife stamped "Green River" on the handle but Green River didn't make it. I guess at one time England tried to put Green River out of business by flooding the market with Green River stamped knifes sold at below cost. Not at all a bad knife for the period, fruit wood handle and a tapered tang.


----------



## vicv

I used to have a very hard time getting a good Edge on my razor that I could comfortably shave with. I tried Stones. I tried lapping film. Nothing ever seemed to work. I read the science of sharp blog and I tried his method
https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/04/14/simple-straight-razor-honing/

it's so simple and it works every time. It might not be as sexy as using a $700 natural Stone but it produces a better Edge than anything else that I've seen. And it doesn't have to be expensive stuff. For the metal polish I use autosol. For the diamond on leather I used the cheap .5 Micron Chinese paste. leather is just a couple pieces of 12 inch by 2 inch 3 mm veg tan I bought from my local leather supplier and glue down to a piece of glass
The stones I use are a combo 1k/6k king


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

vicv said:


> I used to have a very hard time getting a good Edge on my razor that I could comfortably shave with. I tried Stones. I tried lapping film. Nothing ever seemed to work. I read the science of sharp blog and I tried his method
> https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/04/14/simple-straight-razor-honing/
> 
> it's so simple and it works every time. It might not be as sexy as using a $700 natural Stone but it produces a better Edge than anything else that I've seen. And it doesn't have to be expensive stuff. For the metal polish I use autosol. For the diamond on leather I used the cheap .5 Micron Chinese paste. leather is just a couple pieces of 12 inch by 2 inch 3 mm veg tan I bought from my local leather supplier and glue down to a piece of glass
> The stones I use are a combo 1k/6k king


I have a razor that I finished on a 6k King followed by CrOx on a cotton belt laid on a table, just to see how simple and cheap it could be. The razor is very usable. Normally I use Naniwas and clean strops.


----------



## vicv

Once again I can't argue with a guy with such a great name. 
I've used crox too. Or in this case Lee Valley compound. It has some larger alox mixed in as well. I believe though it's important to have it as a hanging strop and it be denim. The abrasive type or size isn't important. I've also used cotton on a table and the results are not nearly as good
From my perspective the issue with just stones is it makes too sharp of an edge. Has too much bite and digs into skin as well and cutting hair. With a hanging pasted strop you're slightly rounding over the edge. Makes for a smoother shave. It's bad for knives good for shaving


----------



## Desert Rat

A new to me Kamisori. I wanted to do a full Arkansas stone progression with this one which is pretty normal for me. It wasn't in bad condition, just some very small chips and dings barley visible to the naked eye. I put it on a Washita to set the bevel and with some localized pressure had everything going in the right direction. Then I went to Kapton tape to finish things up. About an hour later and no less then four Washita stones it was apparent that I would be several hours just removing the small chips. Them Washita's wanted nothing to do with this steel. I switched to my little coticule on the manufactured coticule slurry and had the damage out in about fifteen minutes.




I wish I had a couple more inches to work with on that coticule but it never disappoints with a mid to upper level HHT and a real comfortable shave.

Does anyone know the maker of that kamisori or what the kanji says?


----------



## vicv

What is kapton tape?


----------



## Desert Rat

Polyimide tape. One mil thick so very little change to edge angle. I have a cheap knock off that works fine for my purposes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton


----------



## kayman67

Kapton tape is developed by Dupont which is a HN general purpose film with silicon adhesive. Kapton® polyimide films shows excellent electrical insulation properties, high temperature resistant, and excellent solvent resistant. Kapton tape combines excellent physical, electrical, and mechanical properties, and has been used in applications at temperatures as low as -273°C (-459°F) and as high as 400°C (752°F). 

end of quote 
But these days many Chinese manufacturers make something that looks like this and maybe mimics some of the behaviour, but for razors is not as resilient.


----------



## kayman67

Desert Rat said:


> Polyimide tape. One mil thick so very little change to edge angle. I have a cheap knock off that works fine for my purposes.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapton


 
The best thing over anything else, even with the knock offs, is that the thickness will be constant.


----------



## vicv

Ok I know what the tape is. I was wondering what it had to do with sharpening


----------



## kayman67

It's quite useful for razors.


----------



## vicv

How? I can't see how tape would be used for sharpening. Is this a special polishing tape like the edge pro uses? I've used lapping film before on glass


----------



## kayman67

You tape the spine. It protects the spine and also makes the razor glide better and not unnecessarily load some stones. Some people also use it just to change the angle even so slightly, but it does improve some edges.


----------



## kayman67




----------



## vicv

The spine is specifically designed to be the angle guide. You lay the razor flat on the abrasive so the edge and the spine abrade evenly. Putting tape on the spine will in time change the geometry. This is a very bad idea.


----------



## kayman67

Yes and no. It is routine dependent. 
Usually you should set the bevel without it. Unless it's a new razor and you just want to hone it and keep it like new for time being. On a very long run, I would agree. 

Later with highest grits, it won't make much of a difference regarding this. The removal is just isn't there as much. 
And since you should be able to keep an edge for months just by stropping on crox and plain leather, again the time frame is huge. You might not see significant changes for a decade.


----------



## kayman67

Another thing this is used for is making the bevel even, with different layers as needed.

Well, it definitely has its usages in all kinds of scenarios and it's a better tape for the job.


----------



## vicv

Fair enough. I don't see the point myself but with fine abrasives it shouldn't make a difference. And with a tiny angle change will cause a micro convex like a pasted strop will. Giving a smoother edge. I like the pasted strop myself


----------



## Desert Rat

Vic, if you look at the used kamisori razors on ebay you will notice the omote side being frequently wiped out. This is in part caused by the soft steel or iron body being forge welded to the hard steel edge. Had I not taped my washita's would have cut the soft body fine but not the edge, I would have ended up with a mess.

Kayman, I did have to change my knock off Kapton tape a couple of times. Is the real deal worth the extra cost?


----------



## Desert Rat

kayman67 said:


>



Humble guy, but I have picked so much by combing through his content. He recommended the Kapton tape to me also.


----------



## kayman67

I agree.

The "good" Kapton seems to be a lot more resilient. But changing the tape is easy and it's more of a inconvenience than a real problem. Applying it is very consistent and straightforward.


----------



## Desert Rat

Another Kamosori with a much different steel. I had never met a razor that a washita wouldn't cut before. This one looks like it could be from the same maker as the last one but the washita cut it fast and fine. Just for grins I took it as far as I could on the one stone and will try to shave off of it. It's kind of passing a HHT, more like able to whittle or split hairs so more on the low end but I will see how it goes.


----------



## Matus

I don’t tape the spine on my razors. The spine actually needs to loose material over time as that will help a little to keep the geometry of the edge (which wears and the razor slowly looses width, so it also needs to loose thickness). Plus if you do put the tape on the spine - you must keep it there until the finishing stone. But I want to enjoy the gliding of the blade on my Nakayama, not have a piece of plastic in the way.


----------



## Desert Rat

BTW shaving off a Washita is not a comfortable thing. I made it through a ATG pass and that is it. I had to try.....


----------



## Desert Rat

I took a chance on this little hone on the auction site. It was pretty rough and the label was almost completely covered in slurry. It could have turned out to be a carborundum it was so dirty. Looked like some kid tried to sharpen a chisel on it with deep gouges in the stone. I think it's a thuringian or maybe even an Escher? I came off a coticule with slurry and finished on it with out slurry. It's not fast but it is fine enough and the shave was exceptionally comfortable. Pretty good for a first go with the stone. I will probably see what it acts like with slurry next time.
It isn't going back in that box until it's cleaned up, nasty.


----------



## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> I took a chance on this little hone on the auction site. It was pretty rough and the label was almost completely covered in slurry. It could have turned out to be a carborundum it was so dirty. Looked like some kid tried to sharpen a chisel on it with deep gouges in the stone. I think it's a thuringian or maybe even an Escher? I came off a coticule with slurry and finished on it with out slurry. It's not fast but it is fine enough and the shave was exceptionally comfortable. Pretty good for a first go with the stone. I will probably see what it acts like with slurry next time.
> It isn't going back in that box until it's cleaned up, nasty.




Looks like a Thuringian to me. The Celebrated Razor Water Hone. Nice score. I've been hunting for one.


----------



## kayman67

It should be a Thuringian. I don't see the label very well. Some had an Escher logo. Looks like there's the cup and the Made in Germany. 
I had about 10 of these, various writings, but same type of box and size, mostly dark blue. All were nice stones, but some dark blue were finer than others, with no particular mark. So there's some variation. 
Pretty common format in Europe, especially in the UK. Due to the war and a ban on German products, Made in Germany was removed from some labels and some of these stones were even labelled as being made in the UK.

If you want to see a billion Eschers, this guy had some nice stuff, check the channel 
It's a bit disturbing that I know a few people that have even more, a lot more.


----------



## Desert Rat

Interesting finding on the thuringian. If I raise a slurry on it with a worn diamond plate like I sometimes do with a coticule the shave comfort and irritation goes way up. Dressed the stone on worn 1000 wet dry and the edge is back to being comfortable.


----------



## kayman67

I saw something similar with coticules. Even if they've been used for years, usually 600 and 1200 plates deliver very different slurry and edges.


----------



## inferno

vicv said:


> Once again I can't argue with a guy with such a great name.
> I've used crox too. Or in this case Lee Valley compound. It has some larger alox mixed in as well. I believe though it's important to have it as a hanging strop and it be denim. The abrasive type or size isn't important. I've also used cotton on a table and the results are not nearly as good
> From my perspective the issue with just stones is it makes too sharp of an edge. Has too much bite and digs into skin as well and cutting hair. With a hanging pasted strop you're slightly rounding over the edge. Makes for a smoother shave. It's bad for knives good for shaving



hand american was the source for all pure crox.


----------



## inferno

Desert Rat said:


> I took a chance on this little hone on the auction site. It was pretty rough and the label was almost completely covered in slurry. It could have turned out to be a carborundum it was so dirty. Looked like some kid tried to sharpen a chisel on it with deep gouges in the stone. I think it's a thuringian or maybe even an Escher? I came off a coticule with slurry and finished on it with out slurry. It's not fast but it is fine enough and the shave was exceptionally comfortable. Pretty good for a first go with the stone. I will probably see what it acts like with slurry next time.
> It isn't going back in that box until it's cleaned up, nasty.



if its a thuri/escher you can probably sell it for 500. and get real stones


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## kayman67

It is not that kind of Escher.


----------



## inferno

so guys have any of you tried the spyderco UF yet? the UF stone has several hundreds stray grit sticking up on the surface. and those can be easily knocked down with a spyderco white rod. done. 

then that stone becomes the finest **** in the entire world. no ****. you can shave straight off the stone. i can at least. and i have very thick stubborn beard. coti+strop will definitely not cut it, but UF will. ymmv.


----------



## inferno

kayman67 said:


> It is not that kind of Escher.



you are probably right. i know nothing of eschers and thuris to be honest, except i'm not getting one.


----------



## zizirex

My new toy and my first Kamisori. Iwasaki small size.


----------



## Desert Rat

inferno said:


> if its a thuri/escher you can probably sell it for 500. and get real stones


If it was worth that it would be gone and I would be shopping for a JNAT. It's probably worth 100 on a good day and at that price I might as well keep it because it is a pretty good finisher.


----------



## Desert Rat

zizirex said:


> My new toy and my first Kamisori. Iwasaki small size.


That's really nice. Interesting that the toe looks safe on that new one. Shaves are so good with the Kamisori's but it's challenging for me to keep flipping back and forth so I don't use the westerns that often.


----------



## pentryumf

@Mattus, wisdom written. 
"I want to enjoy the gliding of the blade on my Nakayama not have a piece of plastic in the way."
This matches my feeling in the tape discussion. Spine thickness must decrease with width of cutting face to remain a comfortable cutting experience.


----------



## kayman67

It's really not the issue is said to be. You are thinking years in advance or lots of honing sessions due to all kinds of reasons. I agree, but it's also usable. Because in a real life scenario, having a mint razor honed well would translate in using it for a very long time with the required strop maintenance. Guys did group tests for this a few years back.


----------



## Razor

There is so much misinformation on this thread I don't know where to start. The discussion on tape is so misguided and wrong; and the suggestion that stropping is not needed is laughable. I suggest sticking to knives on this forum where extreme expertise is abundant and leave razors to other forums where they have razor expertise.


----------



## kayman67

You could explain  

Sometimes I can get away without stropping. And I know a lot of people who "strop" in their hand after a Jnat and call it a day. But then again there are people that strop 100 times on 5 different strops and never imagine anything else or accept anything else. So, it is what it is. 

You know what the problem is with the "razor expertise" is? This post right here https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/lets-have-a-new-razor-thread.43148/page-10#post-673332


----------



## Razor

It is all relative. What one person considers shave ready is very different for someone else. But this forum is not the place for this discussion. There are many other forums that focus exclusively on the stropping, honing, stone selection, pasted strops, pasted balsa wood, film etc... I don't want to advertise another forum here, but if someone wants to know where to go PM me.


----------



## stringer

Razor said:


> It is all relative. What one person considers shave ready is very different for someone else. But this forum is not the place for this discussion. There are many other forums that focus exclusively on the stropping, honing, stone selection, pasted strops, pasted balsa wood, film etc... I don't want to advertise another forum here, but if someone wants to know where to go PM me.



We have one thread devoted to razors. If you don't like it then mute it or something.


----------



## kayman67

That's true. It's not all that black and white and the personal part is the foundation, sometimes pure subjective, sometimes based on specific needs. 
Where I am, there's some colective experience going around. And we might not agree on everything all the time, but we're friends. I see that as a very good sign of a healthy community. That experience happens nevertheless and is reference enough. So, we have a pretty good idea about what "shave ready" is for everyone. That's why I completely agree with you.


----------



## Razor

kayman67 said:


> You could explain
> 
> Sometimes I can get away without stropping. And I know a lot of people who "strop" in their hand after a Jnat and call it a day. But then again there are people that strop 100 times on 5 different strops and never imagine anything else or accept anything else. So, it is what it is.
> 
> You know what the problem is with the "razor expertise" is? This post right here https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/lets-have-a-new-razor-thread.43148/page-10#post-673332


Stropping in your hand is stropping on live leather. I have done that in a pinch, but nothing beats a good stropping progression. I use hard linen, Kanayama cotton and then Kanayama horse hide. You might get away without stropping, but I do it post shave just to get the moisture and crude off the edge.

Another word for taping in the coticule world is unicot. http://www.coticule.be/unicot.html. It is an easier way to get a good result, but eventually most folks abandon unicot and go back to dulicot because they learn their stone. - Another use for tape is for (new to you) razors that might have geometry problems and you don't want to remove too much steel on the spine. A Gold Dollar is a good example. So you sharpie the edge and try to get it in order with tape. Then you pull the tape and set the bevel. 

Can you shave off of a stone, sure, but do you always want to be honing your razor or would you rather remove less steel and just use a strop. One problem with stropping is it eventually convexes the edge, especially pasted strops with improper technique. But doing nothing after cutting the equivalent of hair size copper strands makes zero sense and would be a very rough shave.


----------



## kayman67

It won't necessarily be, as strange as this might sound. 

I feel like you might have skipped some parts.



Razor said:


> - Another use for tape is for (new to you) razors that might have geometry problems and you don't want to remove too much steel on the spine.



For example this
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/lets-have-a-new-razor-thread.43148/page-11#post-675056

And other stuff. It's like a couple of inches above when I mention stropping maintenance last time. 
But let's agree to disagree on this one.


----------



## Desert Rat

Razor said:


> There is so much misinformation on this thread I don't know where to start. The discussion on tape is so misguided and wrong; and the suggestion that stropping is not needed is laughable. I suggest sticking to knives on this forum where extreme expertise is abundant and leave razors to other forums where they have razor expertise.


It's a razor thread so it is the right place. So please expand on all that is wrong here...


----------



## stringer

Razor said:


> Stropping in your hand is stropping on live leather. I have done that in a pinch, but nothing beats a good stropping progression. I use hard linen, Kanayama cotton and then Kanayama horse hide. You might get away without stropping, but I do it post shave just to get the moisture and crude off the edge.
> 
> Another word for taping in the coticule world is unicot. http://www.coticule.be/unicot.html. It is an easier way to get a good result, but eventually most folks abandon unicot and go back to dulicot because they learn their stone. - Another use for tape is for (new to you) razors that might have geometry problems and you don't want to remove too much steel on the spine. A Gold Dollar is a good example. So you sharpie the edge and try to get it in order with tape. Then you pull the tape and set the bevel.
> 
> Can you shave off of a stone, sure, but do you always want to be honing your razor or would you rather remove less steel and just use a strop. One problem with stropping is it eventually convexes the edge, especially pasted strops with improper technique. But doing nothing after cutting the equivalent of hair size copper strands makes zero sense and would be a very rough shave.



The problem I mostly have with the razor forums is they are very clique-y. And the conversation is largely dominated by a couple of blowhards and their sycophants. There's a lot more people and moderators trying to control what you can talk about. And people are taught that beginners shouldn't mess with their own tools, which is something I fundamentally disagree with. I find all of these things highly annoying so when this thread kicked off at KKF I was very happy to participate. If you see above I did a whole series of different razors all on dilucot above. I actually agree with most of what you said. I finish on linen and shell leather. I find pasted strops to be unnecessary. I've never tried films nor have any desire to. I also like razors finished on arks, jnats, Jasper, synthetic stones, etc. I don't know everything. But I'm learning fast. I'm more than happy to have you join our conversation but please can the attitude. If you don't like the thread then I suggest you ignore it. I'm up to my neck in coronavirus right now and will not respond gracefully to trollish behavior.


----------



## vicv

kayman67 said:


> You could explain
> 
> Sometimes I can get away without stropping. And I know a lot of people who "strop" in their hand after a Jnat and call it a day. But then again there are people that strop 100 times on 5 different strops and never imagine anything else or accept anything else. So, it is what it is.
> 
> You know what the problem is with the "razor expertise" is? This post right here https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/lets-have-a-new-razor-thread.43148/page-10#post-673332


Was that response at me? Was there something wrong or mis informative about my post?


----------



## kayman67

No, it really wasn't. All good.

We are here to weigh info from different perspectives, but also to be a bit outside the box.


----------



## vicv

Oh I'm honestly wasn't looking for a fight or an argument. It was just a little ambiguous to me anyway what was meant as either a positive or a negative when you quoted me


----------



## kayman67

I understand now. You were a positive experience actually. The good reason and best positive example that popped into my mind at that time.


----------



## vicv

Ah ok. Thanks


----------



## stringer

That's what KKF is all about. Sharing simple solutions that work without reference to a bunch of dogma and superstition and questionable claims of expertise.


----------



## Desert Rat

I have revisited Jasper with not much success. Perhaps my surface isn't good enough I don't know. I know there is million different kinds of jasper. What I have at the moment is Owyhee picture jasper that I selected myself and not for beauty.


----------



## Desert Rat

With all the conflicting information out there on coticules I had to jump back in and see for myself what the deal is. I got a couple more to play with and I will decide for myself if only select ones are finishers.

This one is twice as slow as my first one on slurry which is a little disappointing because I was looking forward to the extra real estate of a bigger stone.


----------



## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> With all the conflicting information out there on coticules I had to jump back in and see for myself what the deal is. I got a couple more to play with and I will decide for myself if only select ones are finishers.
> 
> This one is twice as slow as my first one on slurry which is a little disappointing because I was looking forward to the extra real estate of a bigger stone.




My slower ones tend to produce better final edges. Lately my progression has been
Shapton Pro 1500 for bevel set
Fast coticule for mid range to pre finish
Finish on the slow coticule.

My slower ones are noticeably finer and produce keener edges. YMMV


----------



## Desert Rat

stringer said:


> My slower ones tend to produce better final edges. Lately my progression has been
> Shapton Pro 1500 for bevel set
> Fast coticule for mid range to pre finish
> Finish on the slow coticule.
> 
> My slower ones are noticeably finer and produce keener edges. YMMV


That's good information. I need to try another razor on this stone, I think this razor is one that is a problem child that has some warp to it and I had to hone it on a narrow hone to get a good edge. It took me a couple weeks with my last coticule to learn how to coax a shaving edge off of it, hopefully the learning curve with this one won't be near as steep.


----------



## kayman67

With wider stones, draw an imaginary 1 inch line from the side and concentrate your honing on that part. Consider that's your stone. It helps a lot with such razors. This is one way to manage them.


----------



## Simple27

Here are my two razors.


----------



## Desert Rat

I shaved off a razor honed on the new to me Coticule this morning. It was a good shave but I had to earn it, I got things figured out at 11.30 last night, I spent hours on that stone. I would like to think I am a little wiser but will find out pretty soon because I have a couple more hones I haven't tried. Going to give razor honing a break for a couple of days.


----------



## Luftmensch

Razor said:


> There is so much misinformation on this thread I don't know where to start. The discussion on tape is so misguided and wrong; and the suggestion that stropping is not needed is laughable. I suggest sticking to knives on this forum where extreme expertise is abundant and leave razors to other forums where they have razor expertise.



That is a bit hastily written and lacks generosity....


... The connection between razors and fine kitchen knives might not be one-to-one... but it does share a sharpening of steel. The first thing I learned to sharpen was razors. That knowledge made sharpening kitchen knives easier in my opinion (although some of the specifics were harder - like free holding an angle). I am sure the reverse is true.

In any community, the most annoying thing is gurus who consider their way the best or only way. Often in life, there are better ways and worse ways - but this is a function of personal preference and opinion. When it comes to sharpness (knife or razor).... almost any method (within reason) is better than no method!

Besides... most of the chatter in razor and knife communities is not necessary for basic function. And it is why both communities dive deep into the minutiae. It is for the joy, the hobby and building of skill.... not to 'get the job done'.

This is apparently "The sharpest place on earth" - surely we have room for a razor thread.


----------



## vicv

I agree with the above post. Everyone does things differently and that is not laughable. person I think using a coticule is ridiculous as I can do it in 1/10 the time with other means. Doesn't mean one way the other is wrong. I am still in the strong camp that taping the spine is absolutely wrong and should not be done. But I guess for people with a $500 razor with jimping on the spine they want to keep that original I guess. But to me razors are like knives they're just tools. And everyone has their own ways to maintain their tools and that's okay it's not right or wrong


----------



## kayman67

I did read something funny today (not laughable, just made me smile), about how finishing with edge leading was, well, not completely wrong but, let's say, the most difficult way all this time. I smiled even more when this was pretty much related to the need of complex stropping after. 

Would you have considered me a complete idiot if I would have been an advocate for this? From afar, how intuitive is this? I mean, just how many times have you seen this before?


----------



## vicv

I know edge leading will lead to micro chipping as the grit particles are going to be proud from the surface. But taping the spine....... If you are supposed to lay a razor flat on a stone then obviously the spine is your angle holder. If the edge moves towards the spine but spine thickness stays the same obviously edge will thicken. 
I do not think you are an idiot. I think you've been given bad advice from a razor forum. Be honest would you ever had came to taping the spine on your own...?


----------



## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> I shaved off a razor honed on the new to me Coticule this morning. It was a good shave but I had to earn it, I got things figured out at 11.30 last night, I spent hours on that stone. I would like to think I am a little wiser but will find out pretty soon because I have a couple more hones I haven't tried. Going to give razor honing a break for a couple of days.



What are you using for bevel set? I do my bevel set with Shapton 1500 (which could be 5 minutes to an hour of work for a massive chip or geometry issue).
After that I only do about 100 laps for the whole dilucot. If that isn't sharp enough then another 50 laps on Jasper or an Ark and it's golden. It took me about 50 razors to dial it in. But now after bevel set it's about a ten minute process to dilucot and strop.


----------



## kayman67

Yes. I've done tests of my own to the point where the spine was almost gone. I don't disagree with the effects, I'm just saying that in a normal usage scenario this would take a huge amount of time to become a real problem. But when this started, it was not about using tape or not. It was about what tape is best if you need it. To date, I don't know any respectable guy in the community (in the world) that doesn't use tape in one way or another. From what I've seen, most tapes are a problem on their own. 

It's not about micro chipping, it's about how edges develop in a natural way, not as we imagine they do. We can actually force them in a different direction, but that opens doors for new problems that we fix later and so on.


----------



## Desert Rat

stringer said:


> What are you using for bevel set? I do my bevel set with Shapton 1500 (which could be 5 minutes to an hour of work for a massive chip or geometry issue).
> After that I only do about 100 laps for the whole dilucot. If that isn't sharp enough then another 50 laps on Jasper or an Ark and it's golden. It took me about 50 razors to dial it in. But now after bevel set it's about a ten minute process to dilucot and strop.


I usually set my bevel on Washita's, if it needs chip repair I will take it to a diamond stone or two first.


----------



## Desert Rat

kayman67 said:


> I did read something funny today (not laughable, just made me smile), about how finishing with edge leading was, well, not completely wrong but, let's say, the most difficult way all this time. I smiled even more when this was pretty much related to the need of complex stropping after.
> 
> Would you have considered me a complete idiot if I would have been an advocate for this? From afar, how intuitive is this? I mean, just how many times have you seen this before?


More common in japan, sometimes with pull strokes or a variation to remove any bur. I routinely finish with some edge trailing passes a technique I learned in knife sharpening.
Just a couple examples...


----------



## kayman67

I know about it. I think I even wrote something about this. Can't remember when.


----------



## Desert Rat

kayman67 said:


> I know about it. I think I even wrote something about this. Can't remember when.


Have you tried it both ways and compared? Would genuinely be interested in your opinion, or from any one else as well that has tried edge trailing strokes. What type of stone, what it did or didn't do ect.


----------



## kayman67

Someone else said that his coticule was much better with edge trailing. I believe it was. It's definitely something worth trying.
I might be beyond saving at this point and beyond just staying for the results alone with something. I like to play around a lot. With everything and anything. And it's not always working or as expected, but definitely opened a few quite interesting doors for me.


----------



## stringer

@Desert Rat

Thank you very much for sharing the videos. They are very therapeutic. I think with some kinds of stones or if you are looking for some kinds of edges then very gentle delicate edge trailing strokes to finish would probably work great. With edge trailing the biggest risk is that you create a wire/fin/burr edge. But if you are using a very very fine finishing stone and taking very short low pressure strokes then the risk of generating a burr is extremely small. I haven't done a whole lot of experimenting with edge trailing on razors. But I definitely believe that you have to gradually diminish your pressure and stroke length until at the end you are taking much shorter lighter strokes. I like the "vibration" stroke that the Japanese guy uses in the first video. I will probably try and practice a little with that. I have a couple of vintage washitas that I have been cleaning up. I'm looking forward to testing them during my quarantine.

Here's a video of my finishing stroke strategy. I sharpened a Genco 6/8 with my dilucot strategy. The shave was passable buy unimpressive. So here I show how I touch up a razor that's slipping or not quite there on the jasper. The shave after this was much better.


----------



## Desert Rat

Stringer, I think some of that honing style is to minimize sticking, it's a real issue especially with the flatter side of Kamisori's. I know some just hone until a razor sticks but I think my hones have a little more to offer after that. There was a change in feed back on my last coticule that I believe was suction even though it didn't stick hard that caused my edge to go backwards (over honing?).

Your video is really interesting. Pretty sure we are playing with two different kinds of jasper even though both share the Owyhee connection. I am really interested in that second jasper hone, did it come from the same ebay seller?

Here is the Owyhee picture jasper that I have been playing with.


----------



## stringer

The big one came


Desert Rat said:


> Stringer, I think some of that honing style is to minimize sticking, it's a real issue especially with the flatter side of Kamisori's. I know some just hone until a razor sticks but I think my hones have a little more to offer after that. There was a change in feed back on my last coticule that I believe was suction even though it didn't stick hard that caused my edge to go backwards (over honing?).
> 
> Your video is really interesting. Pretty sure we are playing with two different kinds of jasper even though both share the Owyhee connection. I am really interested in that second jasper hone, did it come from the same ebay seller?
> 
> Here is the Owyhee picture jasper that I have been playing with.




Mine have definitely been flattened and prepared for razors. I'm glad to because these things are hard. They feel harder and finer than any of my Arkansas stones. I bought them from different eBay sellers and neither one of them has anything available at the moment.
That little green one came from 
https://www.ebay.com/usr/custommadesharpenersandkinves

The larger beige/gray (I'm real colorblind and it changes quite a bit depending on light) one came from
https://www.ebay.com/usr/sajohnso-960

I have finished about 10 razors on the green one. The feeling is keener than an Ark. WAAAYYY keener than coticule. Not as smooth as a coticule, but pretty close to smoothness of Arkansas. Dangerously sharp. I split my cheek open with a Japanese wedge just by going a little too quickly against the grain. Still have a tiny scar from a couple of months ago. 

I have only finished 2 razors on the beige/grey one. I haven't scared myself yet, but I also have only tried 2 kind of problem child razors so far. Haven't thrown anything real scary at it, but I have every reason to believe that it is just as capable as the little one. They look a lot different but they feel the same.
Jasper and novaculite are both made of microcrystalline quartz so it makes sense that they would have similar properties. Jasper isn't really a geological name like novaculite though so each piece is going to have a lot more variance than with Arkansas stones and my experience is only with these two pieces of jasper and about 6 pieces of hard Arkansas.


----------



## inferno

zizirex said:


> My new toy and my first Kamisori. Iwasaki small size.


looking good man. its your last razor, that you will _actually need_ at least.
i have a similar one. from aframes.


----------



## Desert Rat

stringer said:


> The big one came
> 
> 
> 
> Mine have definitely been flattened and prepared for razors. I'm glad to because these things are hard. They feel harder and finer than any of my Arkansas stones. I bought them from different eBay sellers and neither one of them has anything available at the moment.
> That little green one came from
> https://www.ebay.com/usr/custommadesharpenersandkinves
> 
> The larger beige/gray (I'm real colorblind and it changes quite a bit depending on light) one came from
> https://www.ebay.com/usr/sajohnso-960
> 
> I have finished about 10 razors on the green one. The feeling is keener than an Ark. WAAAYYY keener than coticule. Not as smooth as a coticule, but pretty close to smoothness of Arkansas. Dangerously sharp. I split my cheek open with a Japanese wedge just by going a little too quickly against the grain. Still have a tiny scar from a couple of months ago.
> 
> I have only finished 2 razors on the beige/grey one. I haven't scared myself yet, but I also have only tried 2 kind of problem child razors so far. Haven't thrown anything real scary at it, but I have every reason to believe that it is just as capable as the little one. They look a lot different but they feel the same.
> Jasper and novaculite are both made of microcrystalline quartz so it makes sense that they would have similar properties. Jasper isn't really a geological name like novaculite though so each piece is going to have a lot more variance than with Arkansas stones and my experience is only with these two pieces of jasper and about 6 pieces of hard Arkansas.


I think mine are not prepared, lapped correctly. They look smooth, feel smooth but are killing edges. Both of those guys that you bought stones from are local to me. I have some suspicions about the origins of that green one. Possibly a jasper that I have been trying to get my hands on for quite some time, I just didn't get a good enough look and even with one I might not be sure.


----------



## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> I think mine are not prepared, lapped correctly. They look smooth, feel smooth but are killing edges. Both of those guys that you bought stones from are local to me. I have some suspicions about the origins of that green one. Possibly a jasper that I have been trying to get my hands on for quite some time, I just didn't get a good enough look and even with one I might not be sure.



I bought them blind and got lucky I think. Both seem really well lapped and prepared and working great. I have seen people on YouTube who say that you can lap one side coarse and one side smooth and get some of the benefits of having a more versatile stone. Use the coarse side for more aggressive work and the fine side for finishing. I haven't tried this yet and frankly probably won't. I have plenty of coticules and synthetics that can do this work easily and lapping a piece of jasper does not seem like it would be easy. Good luck with your pieces, or contact one of those guys. I got both pieces for very reasonable prices, especially considering the cost of Arkansas stones.


----------



## inferno

Desert Rat said:


> Stringer, I think some of that honing style is to minimize sticking, it's a real issue especially with the flatter side of Kamisori's. I know some just hone until a razor sticks but I think my hones have a little more to offer after that. There was a change in feed back on my last coticule that I believe was suction even though it didn't stick hard that caused my edge to go backwards (over honing?).
> 
> Your video is really interesting. Pretty sure we are playing with two different kinds of jasper even though both share the Owyhee connection. I am really interested in that second jasper hone, did it come from the same ebay seller?
> 
> Here is the Owyhee picture jasper that I have been playing with.



imo there is no such thing as "overhoning" if you think about it how can this possibly happen on a flat surface?? it cant. unless you push it seriously hard and then it can and will happen all the time. 

"sticking" happens as soon as the blade gets close to the same flatness at the stone. i did a whole back side of an xl santoku and stiction started hapening at abnout 1k. it was so bad the blade would suck up the entire stone. 
its just a reciept that the stone and blade is tuned well. but it can happen at 1k and probably lower too.


----------



## inferno

Desert Rat said:


> I think mine are not prepared, lapped correctly. They look smooth, feel smooth but are killing edges. Both of those guys that you bought stones from are local to me. I have some suspicions about the origins of that green one. Possibly a jasper that I have been trying to get my hands on for quite some time, I just didn't get a good enough look and even with one I might not be sure.



forget about unknown stones imo. get a spyderco UF and mash it with a F rod to knock the particles off. thats a synth jasper or ark. as good as its gonna get imo. and very slow.


----------



## Desert Rat

inferno said:


> imo there is no such thing as "overhoning" if you think about it how can this possibly happen on a flat surface?? it cant. unless you push it seriously hard and then it can and will happen all the time.
> 
> "sticking" happens as soon as the blade gets close to the same flatness at the stone. i did a whole back side of an xl santoku and stiction started hapening at abnout 1k. it was so bad the blade would suck up the entire stone.
> its just a reciept that the stone and blade is tuned well. but it can happen at 1k and probably lower too.


I never could get my head wrapped around the term "over honing". I do believe suction is the devil though.


----------



## inferno

Desert Rat said:


> That's really nice. Interesting that the toe looks safe on that new one. Shaves are so good with the Kamisori's but it's challenging for me to keep flipping back and forth so I don't use the westerns that often.



they have been like that for several years.


----------



## inferno

yeah suction will happen as soon as the blade has the same surface roughness and curvature of the stone at hand.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> imo there is no such thing as "overhoning" if you think about it how can this possibly happen on a flat surface?? it cant. unless you push it seriously hard and then it can and will happen all the time.



I agree with this. The old timers who talked about over honing were just describing a wire edge in my opinion. The best way to avoid that is not use too much pressure and finish on a really fine stone. But I don't think you can have too many laps on a finishing stone.




inferno said:


> "sticking" happens as soon as the blade gets close to the same flatness at the stone. i did a whole back side of an xl santoku and stiction started hapening at abnout 1k. it was so bad the blade would suck up the entire stone.
> its just a reciept that the stone and blade is tuned well. but it can happen at 1k and probably lower too.



Propylene glycol helps with sticking. gives you a little bit of cushion without resorting to oil. Someone mentioned it on here or B&B, I've started using it mixed with water on lots of different stones, artificial and natural.


----------



## Desert Rat

inferno said:


> forget about unknown stones imo. get a spyderco UF and mash it with a F rod to knock the particles off. thats a synth jasper or ark. as good as its gonna get imo. and very slow.


It's way to late for me, I'm hopelessly lost in the world of natural stones, they are the only stones that interest me.


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## inferno

its a one way street and you probably know that.


----------



## inferno

stringer said:


> I agree with this. The old timers who talked about over honing were just describing a wire edge in my opinion. The best way to avoid that is not use too much pressure and finish on a really fine stone. But I don't think you can have too many laps on a finishing stone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Propylene glycol helps with sticking. gives you a little bit of cushion without resorting to oil. Someone mentioned it on here or B&B, I've started using it mixed with water on lots of different stones, artificial and natural.



baking powder seems to work too and it prevents rust. if doing carbons i mean. i did a carbon blade last time. and it literally started rusting in front of me. in real time. then i started putting some baking powder in there, voila no rust and no suction as a bonus.


----------



## Desert Rat

It seems that honing under running water works for some coticules. About that easy too.


----------



## kayman67

I'm adding to the list a 1:1 water ballistol mix and anyone should have now something to choose from, that works.


----------



## musicman980

kayman67 said:


> Someone else said that his coticule was much better with edge trailing. I believe it was. It's definitely something worth trying.



Just got an edge trailing coticule edge that can tree top top hair at 1/2 inch above the skin. Can't beat that I tell ya.


----------



## Desert Rat

My latest razor hone. Said to be a Fiddich river. Very nice edges, it took me a little while to get there with this hone because I don't use magnification as I should. It's a slow stone and at a little over five inches I have to put in work. It has really odd feedback, no sticking ever even with a Kamisori.


----------



## stringer

I put a couple of shaving videos on my youtube channel. I still have a lot to learn but I am feeling more confident. 

This one I shave off my beard. I used a Red Imp wedge.



3 pass shave with a Boker


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## musicman980

Nice, I imagine shaving in front of a camera is harder than in solitude.


----------



## stringer

musicman980 said:


> Nice, I imagine shaving in front of a camera is harder than in solitude.



Lol. For sure. You can see me shaking a little. The video with the beard is literally the first time I ever tried to shave my chin with a straight razor. The second video is a few weeks later.


----------



## inferno

stringer said:


> I put a couple of shaving videos on my youtube channel. I still have a lot to learn but I am feeling more confident.
> 
> This one I shave off my beard. I used a Red Imp wedge.
> 
> 
> 
> 3 pass shave with a Boker




i for one think you should shave your head 

its very rewarding and i did it for about 10 years. you feel so "clean" afterwards.


----------



## Luftmensch

stringer said:


> This one I shave off my beard.





stringer said:


> The video with the beard is literally the first time I ever tried to shave my chin with a straight razor. The second video is a few weeks later.



Cool videos! Nice job. Why did you decide to go clean?

I guess I am like you? I have only been shaving my cheeks and neck. Although I have been doing this for years (5-7?), I have never actually straight-shaved my chin or moustache... so i would feel very clumsy doing it! I'd probably look less confident and experienced!

I am far from a straight razor expert, so take this only for the inexperienced empathy it is; I got a little nervous for you in sensitive areas where you weren't stretching your skin!

One tip I learned is to rub an alum block on your non-razor hand fingers. This makes them super grippy - which is useful for stretching the skin. I thought this tip was creative. And it is cool... but I've probably only used it twice...


----------



## stringer

I'm trying to get better at skin stretching. I can get away with some stuff with a nice extra hollow like this little Boker in ways that get me into trouble with wedgier grinds. The alum block trick definitely works. I just like to have a very keen razor and use as little pressure as possible. If I can get a good stretch I do. But I don't push it. Because then I usually end up looking myself in the eye with my finger or lacerating my ear lobe.

I decided to go clean to practice straight razor shaving mostly. I always keep it real short in the summer, so figured I would try it while I have time to practice without having to worry about a few gushers here and there.


----------



## The Edge

Finally going to try making my own straights. Just finished heat treating these. After tempering, they're all coming in at ~65hrc. Done in AEB-L. After they're all ground, I've got someone else that's going to be doing the scales. I'm limited on wheels I can use to do the bevels, so we'll see what all I do. Definitely no full hollows at the moment though, but at least one wedge.


----------



## Desert Rat

The Edge said:


> Finally going to try making my own straights. Just finished heat treating these. After tempering, they're all coming in at ~65hrc. Done in AEB-L. After they're all ground, I've got someone else that's going to be doing the scales. I'm limited on wheels I can use to do the bevels, so we'll see what all I do. Definitely no full hollows at the moment though, but at least one wedge.
> 
> View attachment 80821


It looks very challenging, I would love to see them finished.
I don't have any first hand knowledge of AEB-L. What abrasives are required for sharpening?


----------



## The Edge

Desert Rat said:


> It looks very challenging, I would love to see them finished.
> I don't have any first hand knowledge of AEB-L. What abrasives are required for sharpening?



AEB-L is a stainless/semi-stainless with a very fine grain structure. Definitely more abrasion resistant than simple carbons, but not as ridiculous as some of the newer steels. Sharpens well on most abrasives, that I've found. Was working on a wedge on the stones yesterday, and while time consuming, it wasn't as bad as I was imagining. Does make me realize I need a better finishing stone though. My 12k Chinese stone left a deeper scratch pattern than my 8k. 

Here's where I'm at the moment. All need to see the stones, though one wedge is pretty much there. The other wedge is going to take some time to finish on the stones, but the slight hollows should be a quick to put an edge on. I'll most likely shave tomorrow to see how they're doing.






Here's the wedge.






Here's the slight hollow. I'm going to need more wheels to do 1/4 hollow or more, but wanted to test out with what I had.






Once they're done, I'll be sending them off to family/friend for them to put scales on for me. I'll show more pics when I have them, though it may be a while.


----------



## Dendrobatez

What size wheel did you use and what do you need to do it right?


----------



## The Edge

Dendrobatez said:


> What size wheel did you use and what do you need to do it right?



I used an 8" wheel to do the slight hollows. From my research, I've heard you need 2", 4", 6", and 8" to do most of the grinds, though this is brand new territory for me. I have a 2" wheel, so just need a couple more to be able to play around with more grinds.


----------



## The Edge

Shaved with one of the slight hollows yesterday. Sharpened up super easy, though I left it at 8k with a strop afterwards since finding my 12k leaves a courser scratch pattern. As you can see, the grind isn't perfect, with a little more hollow about 1/4 way from the tip. Was still able to get a great edge regardless. 

A bit awkward to shave without a handle, but the shave was smooth (especially since I ran out of shaving soap, and just used water). With the lock down, I haven't worried about shaving, and forgot to stock up on essentials. Guess it's time to order, and I can give an update when I get these back.


----------



## Chuckles

I have just read this whole thread again in preparation of honing a razor for the first time. I have been shaving for a little bit now working through 3 vintage razors and figuring out shaving technique. The hardest part so far for me has been the stropping. I have been getting good results recently. I have a horsehide strop and a flax linen strop. The flax linen doesn’t seem to help me out much so I try and avoid it. The razors are still shaving alright but need a little love. 

My highest grit synthetic stone is a 6k diamond stone from JKI. The only stones I have beyond that are jnats: Mizukihara, Ozuku, and a tomo nagura. I also have an Aizu and a red aoto. 

I tried the higher grit naturals and have not passed the HHT. The way it is shaving arm hair makes me think it will shave fine but I am disappointed that I didn’t crush the HHT first time out. I do have a balsa strop that for sure has .5 micron chromium oxide on it. The problem is a also have 1 micron and 3 micron diamond sprays and feel pretty confident that some time over the last few years I most likely sprayed one if not both of them on it. 

I am wondering if my naturals are not quite fine enough or if it is just technique? The motions don’t seem that complicated. Maybe I need to to drop down to the Aizu and work back up Mizukihara to Ozuku. Or should it be the other way around?

Anyway, I mostly want to thank everybody for contributing to this thread and for the help I have received so far. I’ll update either when I shave or go back to the stones. Any thoughts or pointers are appreciated.


----------



## musicman980

Shaving arm hair means you have some kind of bevel, so that is a great start. After that it is just refining that edge into something that will shave your face easily and comfortably (Not necessarily passing the HHT). Out of the jnats you've listed, I would assume your Ozuku is the finest? Since razor bevels are usually set with something around 4k synthetic, I would not drop down to the aizu or red aoto, maybe not even the mizukihara if you already have a working bevel. Try doing a couple tomo nagura refinements on your ozuku, slowly diluting the worked slurry until close to water. Once you register on the HHT, that's when pastes and sprays will start to take the edge up a notch. Good luck!


----------



## Chuckles

I took a second razor down to Aizu and back up. I had previously very successfully ruined the edge stropping with too much pressure. After the Ozuku and bare leather it did pass the HHT but barely. I would be generous to myself and say it is partly due to my very fine hair but I just got a chopper from Butch Harner and a hanging hair that enters the same room as that razor splits on it’s own.

When morning comes I will see how my honing actually performs.


----------



## XooMG

Most of my razors sharpen and polish nicely but cut whiskers like a deba cuts carrots. Might have to tweak them a bit more aggressively and see whether I like them more.


----------



## stringer

Chuckles said:


> I took a second razor down to Aizu and back up. I had previously very successfully ruined the edge stropping with too much pressure. After the Ozuku and bare leather it did pass the HHT but barely. I would be generous to myself and say it is partly due to my very fine hair but I just got a chopper from Butch Harner and a hanging hair that enters the same room as that razor splits on it’s own.
> 
> When morning comes I will see how my honing actually performs.



I think that when you are first starting out you should eliminate as many variables as you can and figure out a simple strategy that works for you. And once you get that down pat then you can start really experimenting changing one variable at a time. I would imagine that your 6k diamond stone is pretty much dead flat and probably pretty fast too. There isn't much reason to go beneath that unless you need to set a new bevel or repair a chip or something. I would start there. Do 50-100 laps just to reset the edge and clean up whatever damage and corrosion has accumulated on the bevel. Then do a 100 laps on whichever of your jnats seems to be the finest and hardest. Very light pressure, just enough water to keep it moistened, no slurry. Just using the jnat to polish up the 6k edge. Strop on bare leather. See how it feels in a test shave. If it feels rough, then try another 100 laps. 

*Edited for clarity

If you just want to bump up the keenness a little, especially on heavier old school Sheffield grinds, then a diamond or CBN loaded strop might be something to consider. If it feels sharp but irritating then try finishing it on the Jnat again, but try raising a little slurry first. Definitely work on your stropping technique. It is equally, if not more important than the honing. Don't worry about speed, just make sure that the razor feels and sounds the same going in both directions every time. Just enough pressure that you can feel the razor evenly making contact at both the spine and the edge. Hold the strop firm but not too taut. The bowing/flexing action is important for putting the perfect convexity on the apex, but it should be controlled and precise.

Shave a couple of times. Stropping between every shave. Then reset the bevel again on the 6k and add another stone into the progression and see how that behaves. You can also try other cloth based strops. I have tried several of lots of different materials. Some I hated. The one I now use is a women's woven belt made out of cotton or flax or something. I bought it at the Salvation Army for a dollar. If I don't use it between the stone and the leather then the edge does not seem to be as keen or comfortable. So keep trying different things.

Have fun.


----------



## inferno

i flattened one side of my UF stone. i decied to go with the loose grit/glass plate method since its the only one that works well on a sintered non porous stone.

so i didn't have any silicon carbide powder. and i dont want to waste a diamond plate on it either.

so i simply burned 3 a4 SiC sandpapers  ta-da, loose grit! i used 60 and 120 grit papers.

took me about 30 minutes to flatten the stone (about 1,5mm warp). 

then i put it on a worn dmt C 325. and used minimal pressure. and the end result was similar to the unflat side, that i have run white sharpmaker rods on to get rid of the stray grits sticking up. 

i also noticed after the 60 grit SiC spa treatment the surface was ultra rough and evil. and if it never wears down i think surface could be good. i think i'm gonna leave one side at 60 grit just for fun


----------



## Chuckles

The shaving went smooth off the natural. Definitely the most time consuming part of honing was flattening the stones to be appropriate for razors. The third razor in need of honing I put across the loaded balsa strop a few times and it immediately passed the HHT. So I bought a fine weave cotton strop from Tony Miller to put some paste on. I have .5 micron chromium oxide on hand. The razor forum seems to think that is not fine enough. To me it seems odd that half the crowd thinks 12k synthetic straight to leather is all you need and the other half thinks .5 micron is not fine enough for finishing. Wondering if anybody has an opinion?

I am going to focus on the Ozuku because I want to try holding it in my hand over the sink out of convenience sake. If I need to speed it up I will play with naguras on it. It took forever to flatten this stone so now I have to use it.

I am driven to figure out the honing because these three hollow ground 5/8” razors are phase one. Figure out shaving and maitenance. Phase two is the next four razors where the grinds get fuller and the sizes run up to 7/8” plus. Phase two looks really fun but in the interest of controlling variables and not ruining increasingly valuable razors I am trying to control myself.

**If any mods stumble across this I can’t seem to upload photos to this thread.**


----------



## Illyria

Waiting on my Nakayama Kan finishing stone. Going on 30 days of shipping so far. 

Damn the pandemic messing up shipping internationally, haha.


----------



## Slipstenar

Hahaha, yeah I know.. I waited on some flytying material from the US and it took almost 2 months...



Illyria said:


> Waiting on my Nakayama Kan finishing stone. Going on 30 days of shipping so far.
> 
> Damn the pandemic messing up shipping internationally, haha.


----------



## stringer

Chuckles said:


> The shaving went smooth off the natural. Definitely the most time consuming part of honing was flattening the stones to be appropriate for razors. The third razor in need of honing I put across the loaded balsa strop a few times and it immediately passed the HHT. So I bought a fine weave cotton strop from Tony Miller to put some paste on. I have .5 micron chromium oxide on hand. The razor forum seems to think that is not fine enough. To me it seems odd that half the crowd thinks 12k synthetic straight to leather is all you need and the other half thinks .5 micron is not fine enough for finishing. Wondering if anybody has an opinion?



I bought a Shapton Pro 12k a long time ago. Thinking I would eventually get the 16k and 30k stones. I never used it much. The edge it produces works fine for shaving. It isn't as comfortable as shaving off of natural stones. When I first started out I would do a whole progression of synthetics. Shapton Pro 1k - Shapton Glass 2k - 4k - 8k - Shapton Pro 12k. And then I would finish on Coticule, Arkansas, Jasper or Jnat. 

I did a bunch of experiments with many different coticules. I realized that pretty much any coticule can do the mid range work faster and with better results than a progression of synthetics. I also bought a Shapton Pro 1500 for bevel setting. I like it better than the 1000 or the Shapton Glass 2k. I haven't found a natural that sets a bevel fast enough for me yet. I probably spend 80% of my honing on the bevel setting stone already. So speed is extremely important. I also use the 1k and 2k a lot for kitchen knives so they are almost always are out of true. A razors only stone is easier to maintain. 

So my current progression is Shapton Pro 1500 - Coticule. I can stop there and be perfectly happy. Especially with hollow ground razors. But I usually finish from there on Ark or Jasper. For heavier grinds and wedges, I like to do a post finish step with a .25 micron CBN pasted nylon strop. A lot of people think that wedges are much more difficult to sharpen than hollow ground razors. The problem really isn't that they are difficult to get keen. It's a question of geometry and friction. Hollow grounds are, well, they are hollow. This creates an air gap between your face and the razor's face. Wedges lack this airgap and will tend to vacuum stick to your face if your technique isn't perfect.

One solution is taping the spine of wedges and near wedges to create a microbevel at the apex that has a different angle than the face of the blade. This slight thickening in the angle of the apex creates a bit of a shoulder/transition between the bevel and the razor's face which reduces the suction tendency. I don't like this solution. It will make the shave more comfortable, but it also diminishes the potential keenness of the razor by a bit, just like when you add a microbevel to a knife. You have taken a wedge shaped flat ground razor that had an apex of 12 degrees and added a microbevel that has an apex of 13 degrees, or something. 

You can achieve the same end result with a pasted strop. Instead of creating a microbevel, you are adding microconvexity. This means that the angle of the apex is still being thickened, but without going so far as being faceted into a shoulder. It will be gently convexed by the hanging strop instead of flat ground from spine to edge, which reduces the sticking. It will also be very smooth and comfortable. I have a cheap Pakistan nylon/leather combo strop that I reserve just for this task. The nylon side is treated with the cbn. A little dab will do you. I start with 20 or 30 laps on the nylon side. Then do 20 or 30 laps on the leather. Then I wash and dry the razor to avoid contaminating my main strops. And finish it on my normal naked linen and shell strops. I could probably maintain a razor indefinitely by doing periodic touchups this way. Don't tell my wife. 

Just like with the knife world, there are people who obsess over the grits and microns and whatever. And just like with the knife world, your technique in sharpening and your skill in use is far more important than what equipment you are using. My favorite finishers are my translucent Arkansas and a piece of Owhyhee Jasper. But I have gotten shave ready edges off of a half dozen different coticules, a $12 Chinese natural, a Shapton Glass 8k, a suita, a hideriyama, a rika 5000, several different varieties of hard Ark and even a lily white Washita.


----------



## kayman67

You just might. I'm in the fire hose challenge for 2 months maybe and we use a fire hose with one side diamond paste (I went for 0.1, most of the guys for 0.25, but I considered that my way will allow me to go lower if ever necessary) and the other clean. That's all. Right now I pushed down the number of passes to 30 only on the diamond side. Looks like this is the limit. Still going strong.


----------



## inferno

i'm slowly converting a SS mora companion to a shaver. need to figure out how to hollow it out in some precise and repeatable way.


----------



## Illyria

Got my Harner 52100 straight razor today. 

I love it.


----------



## Desert Rat

A new to me Diari kamisori honed on an unknown slate and a Genuine Water Hone. Hard little hone and very fine. Despite what the label says it does not self slurry at all. I don't know how the ones are that don't carry the E&S trade mark or if the green ones are finer but I am impressed with this little hone.


----------



## Illyria

40 days with no update on the finishing stone. Damned US cuatoms.

Absolutely loving the Harner straight razor. Cocobolo handle.


----------



## lechef

Going down this rabbit hole now too.. Straight razor, wanted to buy the "Iwaaki Kamisori 50mm" from Maksim. Any better for a beginner? In terms of easy use and price value. Think I would start practicing slowly on my days off, not in the middle of a caffeinated 90-hour work week. 

"*3: Straight Shaving Saves You Money.*" Haha don´t think so in our case


----------



## zizirex

lechef said:


> Going down this rabbit hole now too.. Straight razor, wanted to buy the "Iwaaki Kamisori 50mm" from Maksim. Any better for a beginner? In terms of easy use and price value. Think I would start practicing slowly on my days off, not in the middle of a caffeinated 90-hour work week.
> 
> "*3: Straight Shaving Saves You Money.*" Haha don´t think so in our case


it's pretty nice, but to be honest, Kamisori is a bit overrated. I have one, after using it for a couple of months, I still prefer my Thiers Issard. Maybe it's the length? or the grind? Maybe I just like the western style more.


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## kayman67

Who overrated it?


----------



## Matus

I can’t comment on kamisori, but my best for the buck razor is the pretty common, Filarmonica No. 13. It is a stainless one a takes the finest edge of all my razors (the rest is mostly Japanese). I payed some 60 or 80 € for it.
One of the most important parts of the finishing on a natural stone is to creat just a few drops of slurry. If you make too much it is faster in dulling the edge then it is abrading the bevel of the edge as with every stroke you are pushing the edge through the slurry.


----------



## lechef

Matus said:


> I can’t comment on kamisori, but my best for the buck razor is the pretty common, Filarmonica No. 13. It is a stainless one a takes the finest edge of all my razors (the rest is mostly Japanese). I payed some 60 or 80 € for it.
> One of the most important parts of the finishing on a natural stone is to creat just a few drops of slurry. If you make too much it is faster in dulling the edge then it is abrading the bevel of the edge as with every stroke you are pushing the edge through the slurry.



May I asked where you found this? Been looking around, seems to be no one selling it for under 100€, and also quite hard to come by.


----------



## Matus

I got one off eBay and one off one of the German FB groups. I might have been lucky though. I still think though that the best way to get a razor is from some razor groups - guys longer in the game have dozens of them and are often willing to sell some, so you can take the eBay or Buyee lottery out of it. With that said - if you are buying a razor from unknown source, than a Japanese razors are your best bet as they did not really make any low-end razors and the HT is great. I got razors for around 50 in a very decent condition.


----------



## Desert Rat

lechef said:


> Going down this rabbit hole now too.. Straight razor, wanted to buy the "Iwaaki Kamisori 50mm" from Maksim. Any better for a beginner? In terms of easy use and price value. Think I would start practicing slowly on my days off, not in the middle of a caffeinated 90-hour work week.
> 
> "*3: Straight Shaving Saves You Money.*" Haha don´t think so in our case


 I started with kamisori's and have no regrets. I got into straights to save money so my first razor wasn't near as nice or any that I own now for that matter. Start with what appeals to you and it might be best to get comfortable with it before you start bouncing back and forth between the two styles of razors.

Go ahead and treat yourself, that's why you work such long weeks.


----------



## captaincaed

Wondering if the collective wisdom can shine a light on something. I’m also interested in straight razors to reduce waste. I know the cost savings angle is self-deception.

Picked this up as a first to learn on. It’ll get shaving sharp, but doesn’t shave as well as a safety razor or a Harry’s. It eventually does the job, but not terribly comfortable. I’ve worked it over with blue, yellow coticules, black Ark, translucent Ark, wet and dry for all, leather strop with 1micron diamond, plain balsa. Can’t seem to get that HHT sharpness. 

I realize that I may have a lot more to learn on the sharpening, but also curious to know if anyone has an instinct on whether this razor is worth putting more work into, or maybe upgrading to something else.


----------



## Matus

I never got a shave with a straight razor that felt as smooth as a disposable, multi-bladed razor - irrespective from who honed it. The result can however be every bit as good. The feel can be improved a lot by giving your facial hair time to soften (warm shower does the best job) and by a well prepared lather.


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## captaincaed

OK that's nice to know. Helps to get some perspective on what to expect
@stringer how do your shaves compare?


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## zizirex

Make sure the bevel is properly set on medium stone. Also, leather strop matters if you want to have a nice edge.
if you having a hard time having an HHT on medium stone, you will have a harder time on Finer stone. I don't know how fine it is the razor could take since it's a stainless one.


----------



## captaincaed

OK, thank you. So you expect to pass an HHT on a medium stone? 

The razor was nicked when I received it, so I reset the bevel on a 1k stone (after flattening the stone). I tried for an even burr, then reduced the burr on finer stones. It doesn’t seem like I have a burr anymore. I can pull the edge thru balsa, and the edge feels clean, and shaves, but I could still need some practice. It just seems like it should be able to pass a HHT at this point.


----------



## Luftmensch

captaincaed said:


> It’ll get shaving sharp, but doesn’t shave as well as a safety razor or a Harry’s.





captaincaed said:


> Can’t seem to get that HHT sharpness.



I try to strive for HHT to get 'shaving sharp'.

There is some scepticism about how useful the HHT is. There is validity to those arguments. I don't think it is particularly useful as an absolute measurement of sharpness... nor a guarantee it will result in a nice/smooth shave. But there is use to the HHT in a relative sense. For instance, it is useful to know that you are passing HHT in the middle and nose, but not the heel. If you are able to get your razor to HHT, it is also at least an approximate performance reference for you to strive for - you will know you are in the ballpark




Matus said:


> I never got a shave with a straight razor that felt as smooth as a disposable, multi-bladed razor - irrespective from who honed it.



I haven't used multi-bladed razors in years. I used to get rashes from them. Truth be told... I probably didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't invest in reading about how to get the most out of them. So I cant really remember how they feel?

One thing that I think straight razors excel at; is shaving longer hair. You can shave a full beard off with a straight razor! Not something you can really do with a safety or multi-bladed razor. So if you like to shave infrequently (as I do) straight razors do what other razors cannot! I have pretty thick hair and straight razors are quite long (more surface area of contact) - so it never really feels effortless. There is always some feedback. I dont see that as a bad thing, it is just part of the tactile experience.


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## captaincaed

@Luftmensch I think we’re on the same page in both respects. I occasionally need to shave through longer hair, hence the interest. I’m also aiming for the HHT as a benchmark more than an absolute requirement. Feels like a box I _should _be able to check so I can assess how well my sharpening is going. I have read that some people prefer their razors not quite that sharp, and have a more comfortable shave. I’d love to know any tips/references for getting there myself.


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## zizirex

I don't expect to get HHT-5 on medium stone, but if you get HHT1/2 on mid grit that means you're going in the right direction.
It's also very hard to get HHT-5, HHT-4 is what I usually get. I don't have that patient LOL


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## Luftmensch

Badger and Blade is the KKF of the straight razor world. Lots of good info there. Haven't been there in years... so I dont know if the common wisdom has shifted in any particular direction.

I think some people use burr formation to set a bevel? I believe most do not. Raising a burr might imply a higher pressure than you need. Straight razor sharpening uses a very light touch. 

Personally I use the thumb nail test (TNT) to judge how even the sharpness is after setting the bevel. Using only the weight of the razor, drag it across your thumb nail (perpendicular). You should feel a nice even resistance as it bights into the nail. If it chatters, jumps or loses grip and glides, the bevel is not adequately set. Again, you may also find differences in the toe, heel and belly. 

Use X-strokes on the stone to get the toe, heel and belly. The stroke also encourages a smile in the razor rather than a frown over the long term. Watch how the water travels in front of the razor. When you get a nice wave travelling in front of the razor and it feels like it is pulling into the stone, you might be ready for the next stone. If you are setting the bevel, this would be a good time to try the TNT.

Over time you should be able to get some form of HHT off a middle grit stone. Some gurus might even get there at the lower grits! If you can't pass HHT on a middle grit, try stropping a bit and then trying HHT. Drawing the edge through balsa could be quite destructive to the edge. Strop on felt, then leather to clean up the edge instead. You might be surprised by the jump in sharpness.

Pressure control is more delicate in straight razors than kitchen knives. On your final polishing strokes you will want to be using blade only pressure - the lightest you can manage. Torque the edge ever so slightly into the stone. On your lower and mid grits you may choose to use the highest pressure you can before bending/flexing the razor. Clearly this means that you can use more pressure on a wedge over a full hollow! But this still isnt a lot of force. At the end of each stone, you can also lighten up and do a few strokes before the next stage. 

You'll get there!


----------



## Rangen

Out of curiosity, I succumbed to the pitch of the "ancient oceans" guy who sells Jasper stones. I got an interesting stone, for sure. But unless I'm missing some important detail of how to use the thing, I'd never use it for a razor. For me, it produced a very fine edge that was very toothy. Examination with a 20x glass revealed tons of very fine scratches. Not what I want in a razor, I like my facial skin too much, but it's about perfect for my pocket knives, so I'm happy I have it. Might be super-interesting on a kitchen knife, too, will have to see.


----------



## captaincaed

@Luftmensch thank you kindly for the primer! I've read a bit on B&B, but I think I walked away with some opposing viewpoints. Thanks for laying out a coherent A-Z process. I'll get practicing. 

I was doing a couple of things you suggested, but didn't understand the burr from the razor perspective. I'll work on minimal burr formation and minimizing possible tear out. I'm still thinking about knives where there's a little more room to play. Very cool. 

One more question for now, what do you consider a medium stone for a razor? My knife brain tells me that's 1-2k, but I realize it may Be different. Also do you tape the spine on lower grit stones? 

Many thanks
Cc


----------



## kayman67

There are more ways to get results than we might like. That's somewhat the curse here.

HHT is possible after setting the bevel (around 1000 grit, but saying 1000 is like saying "after using a stone", so I'll say after Naniwa Professional 1000 or Shapton Pro 2000 and the likes). And should happen at some level. A good bevel does this. Usually around HHT 3 is as good as it gets here. Based on some opinions, this is the true sharpening level.

Now, HHT isn't really a good marker for a comfortable shave. The good about razors is their or maybe, our ability to fine tune them to the desired level. But it's not always the razor itself or just the razor. Since the tools are kinda different, just changing one with another, isn't guaranteed to work (better). Think also in terms of new procedures, pre shave or shave oil, for example, some steam (so after shower shaving) and so on and so forth. Everyone is different or in a different category. There is no one way fits all. Takes a bit of time. Takes a bit of trial and error. 

About the jasper. Was it burnished? Was fine oil used?


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

captaincaed said:


> One more question for now, what do you consider a medium stone for a razor? My knife brain tells me that's 1-2k, but I realize it may Be different. Also do you tape the spine on lower grit stones?


I consider 4k-8k to be the midrange. As far as tape, it depends on the razor and its geometry.


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

Luftmensch said:


> Badger and Blade is the KKF of the straight razor world. Lots of good info there.



I'm bluesman 7 on B&B.


captaincaed said:


> @Luftmensch I've read a bit on B&B, but I think I walked away with some opposing viewpoints.


 Opposing viewpoints on a social media site? What kind of dystopia do you live in? Just kidding!


----------



## Rangen

kayman67 said:


> About the jasper. Was it burnished? Was fine oil used?



It was certainly lapped flat, and feels quite smooth to a finger. Does that qualify as "burnished?"

I used water, not oil.


----------



## kayman67

If you see a mirror like reflection, it's burnished to some degree. If not, some particles could still be working, thus scratches. 
But for stones like Translucent, Charnley Forest, Jasper, some light honing oil is a good thing. WD40 works well, if you have some. For example, with Charnley this made a huge difference in performance and finish.


----------



## Rangen

kayman67 said:


> If you see a mirror like reflection, it's burnished to some degree. If not, some particles could still be working, thus scratches.
> But for stones like Translucent, Charnley Forest, Jasper, some light honing oil is a good thing. WD40 works well, if you have some. For example, with Charnley this made a huge difference in performance and finish.



Oh. No, not burnished then, dull to the eye. How do I get from here to burnished? I'm guessing SiC particles on glass would be good, but at what size(s)?


----------



## kayman67

http://diamondtecusa.com/product/hand-pads-resin-diamond-3000-grit/



Try finding something like this. When new needs some usage before it starts to perform. 
You don't have to go crazy and make it 100% perfect. It will still improve the performance a lot. 
Another option is to use a very fine SiC stone (Carborundum made some of these and sold them as razor hones). 
There are other ways, but nothing as easy as these. 

But first, give the lubricant a go as well.


----------



## Luftmensch

captaincaed said:


> @Luftmensch thank you kindly for the primer! I've read a bit on B&B, but I think I walked away with some opposing viewpoints. Thanks for laying out a coherent A-Z process. I'll get practicing.
> 
> I was doing a couple of things you suggested, but didn't understand the burr from the razor perspective. I'll work on minimal burr formation and minimizing possible tear out. I'm still thinking about knives where there's a little more room to play. Very cool.
> 
> One more question for now, what do you consider a medium stone for a razor? My knife brain tells me that's 1-2k, but I realize it may Be different. Also do you tape the spine on lower grit stones?
> 
> Many thanks
> Cc



No problem-o! Thats just a rough guide to my approach... Like @kayman67 says:



kayman67 said:


> There are more ways to get results than we might like. That's somewhat the curse here.



I should add, there _is_ better advice out there than mine. Some people have engaged in razors deeply as a, long-term hobby. I did at the beginning when I was learning. Once I had a repeatable routine I was happy with, I got fatigued with all the options and pulled back from experimenting with the minutiae. Thats why I am not sure what the current common wisdom or trends in the community are? I can't imagine they have shifted much.



VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> I consider 4k-8k to be the midrange. As far as tape, it depends on the razor and its geometry.



Similarly... I would say approximately:

major chip repair < 800 (never done it)
800 < bevel set <= 2K
2K < polishing <= 8K
8K <= polish++

The boarders are fuzzy. It depends on what you find works. For what it is worth, from bevel set my routine would be:

1K Naniwa superstone (SS), 4K SS, 8K SS, 12K SS, maybe J-nat, strop

But in reality... once you have set the bevel, straight razor honing is really boring!! I haven't found much reason to dip below 8K for refreshing the edge - maybe add some slurry for a more aggressive cut.


Tape or no tape... bad geometry aside, it is really just a choice as far as I can tell. The last I left it, it was one of them-there debates with no end. Arguments against it are that it makes the edge ~1 degree less acute. Over time it changes the edge geometry since the spine is supposed to wear in sympathy with the edge. Arguments for it are that it protects the spine (e.g. fancy designs, gold leaf). It makes the edge ~1 degree more obtuse for more wear resistance and durability....

Basically.... you can swap between choices if you reset the bevel each time. I do tape...but maybe I should try without!!


----------



## Chuckles

So I haven’t had to drop below my Ozuku Jnat since I figured it out. I have a linen strip now that is loaded with chromium oxide. That seems to make a razor really great at cutting my face. The Jnat doesn’t take much time and is a much better shave. At 8k and above the flatness of the stone might be more important than what the stone is. It is soo important to get the stropping technique down. This cannot be over emphasized. 

I am loving the straight razor shaving. Way better than bic. Now that I have all the gear sorted it is just a thing running in the background and integrated into the routine. Haven’t been to B&B in a while. Used Proraso green for the summer it is now running out and I am going to switch to red for the cold months. 

I am growing the stupidest handlebar mustache right now. I wear a mask all day at work and I am enjoying knowing that I look ridiculous underneath.


----------



## captaincaed

This is such a nice response. 


Luftmensch said:


> Once I had a repeatable routine I was happy with, I got fatigued with all the options and pulled back from experimenting with the minutiae.



I'm aiming for this as well...



Chuckles said:


> Now that I have all the gear sorted it is just a thing running in the background and integrated into the routine.



Not looking to geek out at this point, but be nice and functional. May play around later. I don't have a stone any finer than 8k, only Jnat is an Aizu, which I'm fairly sure I don't want anywhere near my face. Sounds like the linen strop is also a no-go?

I know Jack **** about finer natural stones. Any tips on something to finish up on? I may go hunting for remnants. 
Like I said earlier, have yellow, blue coticules and both black and translucent Arks in the toolbox.



Luftmensch said:


> But in reality... once you have set the bevel, straight razor honing is really boring!!



I agree! What's your ballpark time for doing touch ups? Just trying to avoid the "too much" and "too little" time traps.


----------



## Luftmensch

captaincaed said:


> What's your ballpark time for doing touch ups? Just trying to avoid the "too much" and "too little" time traps.



Sure! Touch ups are pretty quick. I will do 10 laps on the 8K and another 10 on the 12K? Let say a couple of minutes on the stone and 10mins for set up and clean up? 

But @Chuckles had it:



Chuckles said:


> It is soo important to get the stropping technique down. This cannot be over emphasized.



Good stropping can take you very far! Once you have an edge you are satisfied with, you can go a long way with good stropping. It might be 3 months before you feel the need to do a touch up. Some folk out there use pastes... I do not. But I believe you can get away with stropping close to indefinitely if you use pastes?



captaincaed said:


> I don't have a stone any finer than 8k



Unless you have tree-trunks for hair or super sensitive skin, it is possible to shave off an 8K. In fact... it is probably a good way to learn and know you'll get the best out of anything higher. A 'bad' 8K might mean the bevel is not set properly or the 4K finish is off.



captaincaed said:


> Any tips on something to finish up on?



@kayman67 might have better advice? I am not expert on naturals. There is a pretty big universe to explore out there for straight razor shaving. When I want to 'play' I experiment with a couple of hard Nakaymas as the last step... not sure I can really say anything definitive though.




Chuckles said:


> Proraso green



Mmmmm... this and Mitchell's wool fat shaving soap are my default choices!


----------



## Rangen

Linen strop is great for cleaning up the edge after shave -- in more ways than one. Surprising the crap that comes off a razor I thought I cleaned up on my towel.

I'm still early in my straight razor shaving journey, and not decided on one routine. If I use the flattened, pasted balsa strops, down to 0.1 micron, then leather, I get a crazy sharp edge that shaves wonderfully, but needs a careful hand to avoid cuts. If I just hone on the Nakayama Maruka, and follow on denim pasted with Flitz, and then leather, the science of sharp routine, roughly, I get an easier shave, and a good shave. Not as keen, but very very functional. Haven't settled on one or the other; I have razors devoted to each. I admit more razors are devoted to the pasted strops.

I'd love to hear more about hanging strop technique from those that have mastered it. Haven't really had any trouble with it, but definitely flying blind. How taut should you pull the thing?


----------



## cotedupy

I had a quick q...

I don't use a straight razor, tho I may start sometime, and know absolutely fa about them. There are quite a few old ones I've noticed in antique shops around here and I was wondering if (from what you can see in these pics) any of these might be worth looking into for a bit of restoration? They run from about $20 - $45 USD equivalent.

I assume that when looking at the state of a blade it would be fairly similar things to watch out for as on an old knife...?







[EDIT - Sorry if that was a complete derailment. I confess I may have just skipped to the end of this thread, rather than reading all the way through. And have just noticed it's in the sharpening forum, so probably not just a general discussion. My bad!]


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

cotedupy said:


> There are quite a few old ones I've noticed in antique shops around here and I was wondering if (from what you can see in these pics) any of these might be worth looking into for a bit of restoration? They run from about $20 - $45 USD equivalent.


The main thing to watch for, IMO, would be corrosion near the cutting edge. Sometimes the pitting can go a lot deeper than it looks and then the edge turns to swiss cheese as you hone. After that I would avoid anything with heavy wear or looks like heavy buffing was done on it. Good luck.


----------



## cotedupy

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> The main thing to watch for, IMO, would be corrosion near the cutting edge. Sometimes the pitting can go a lot deeper than it looks and then the edge turns to swiss cheese as you hone. After that I would avoid anything with heavy wear or looks like heavy buffing was done on it. Good luck.



TY! This was something I noticed when restoring a single bevel knife recently. Luckily it wasn't too bad, and I managed to fix in the end, but it was deeper than I thought, and became apparent as I sharpened.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

To give creditability to Victor Creazzi (not that he needed any), here are two razors he made I'm buying from him.


----------



## captaincaed

OK I took the razor to the local shop, where the owner is a razor nut. He worked it over and said "it's not you, it's the steel.". Got a new one, it's tree topping arm hair. Boom.


----------



## captaincaed

cotedupy said:


> I had a quick q...
> 
> I don't use a straight razor, tho I may start sometime, and know absolutely fa about them. There are quite a few old ones I've noticed in antique shops around here and I was wondering if (from what you can see in these pics) any of these might be worth looking into for a bit of restoration? They run from about $20 - $45 USD equivalent.
> 
> I assume that when looking at the state of a blade it would be fairly similar things to watch out for as on an old knife...?
> 
> View attachment 101497
> View attachment 101498
> View attachment 101499
> 
> 
> [EDIT - Sorry if that was a complete derailment. I confess I may have just skipped to the end of this thread, rather than reading all the way through. And have just noticed it's in the sharpening forum, so probably not just a general discussion. My bad!]


GET CARBON. Old stainless is suspect (from my extensive experience with one razor ever.)


----------



## captaincaed

Rangen said:


> Linen strop is great for cleaning up the edge after shave -- in more ways than one. Surprising the crap that comes off a razor I thought I cleaned up on my towel.
> 
> I'm still early in my straight razor shaving journey, and not decided on one routine. If I use the flattened, pasted balsa strops, down to 0.1 micron, then leather, I get a crazy sharp edge that shaves wonderfully, but needs a careful hand to avoid cuts. If I just hone on the Nakayama Maruka, and follow on denim pasted with Flitz, and then leather, the science of sharp routine, roughly, I get an easier shave, and a good shave. Not as keen, but very very functional. Haven't settled on one or the other; I have razors devoted to each. I admit more razors are devoted to the pasted strops.
> 
> I'd love to hear more about hanging strop technique from those that have mastered it. Haven't really had any trouble with it, but definitely flying blind. How taut should you pull the thing?


After playing around with the two, I agree the crazy edge isn't the nicest on my skin. The stainless doesn't offer the greatest shave, but with some work it might do a bit better, and it won't make me look like I survived an assassination attempt.


----------



## jwthaparc

I've recently started using a straight razor. I just picked it up maybe a month ago, and it was mainly because I wanted to know for sure I could hone one if someone ever needed me to ( I do some sharpening on the side to supplement my cooking pay during the week). I got into wet shaving a year or two ago, so I figured even if I never have to hone anyone else's I still might enjoy having one. 

I bought this ultra cheap thing for 12 bucks, made in Pakistan of some mystery steel. It definitely isn't carbon steel, at the same time it does seem to stain a bit easily for a stainless steel. However it will hold a good enough edge to shave. The grind wasn't well done, and the bevel looks a bit off because of it, but it's just cosmetic. George Washington "The First Mason President" Straight Razor in Orig. Box | eBay this thing but in blue. It was the cheapest razor the knife shop i work with had, that seemed like could still be shaved with, which is what I wanted. A bit of a challenge. 

I was finishing on a razor asagi with a nagura progression, ending with clear water on the stone. Now I just got a piece of leather (well another one) that I'm putting white, and green compound on (white on the suede side, green on the smooth side). Using the strip with compound has taken it even to the next level now. Plus it makes the mirror finish look a little better. 

Anyway... I didn't really have much of a point I guess. Just felt like sharing what got me here, and what I'm doing for my honing routine. Actually, if anyone has any recommendations on how i can do anything different while honing, or maybe for another cheap razor that would be cool.


----------



## zizirex

Just finished playing around with a Cheap Amazon 0.5 micron diamond compound on a DIY leather strop. it's much nicer to use instead of ChromeOx, cuts faster and less messy. it really helps bring out the edge from my Iwasaki Kamisori and Thiers Issard.


----------



## kayman67

You can go one level up with poly or cbn. Two levels up is uncomfortable for most people.


----------



## pgugger

After a few years into Japanese knives and a few months into Japanese woodworking tools, I have now made the plunge into the world Japanese razors (must have something to do with pandemic lockdowns!). Just got this 45 mm Iwasaki Kamisori from Aframes:





I haven't used it nor honed it yet, and I have never even used a straight razor before, but I like the craftsmanship, tradition, and the idea of having quality tools that can be used a lifetime. 

I have skimmed this thread and seen talk of various honing routines... anyone use this method successfully on a kamisori? Simple Straight Razor Honing.

Any other thoughts, warnings, suggestions before I put this thing to work?


----------



## Moooza

pgugger said:


> After a few years into Japanese knives and a few months into Japanese woodworking tools, I have now made the plunge into the world Japanese razors (must have something to do with pandemic lockdowns!). Just got this 45 mm Iwasaki Kamisori from Aframes:



Wonderful! There is nothing like an Iwasaki. I went the other way, from Iwasaki, to all of his apprentices.

The only suggestion I'd give is to consider removing the handle wrap - if it gets wet, it can cause rust.


----------



## Rangen

pgugger said:


> Any other thoughts, warnings, suggestions before I put this thing to work?



Congratulations! I shave with kamisoris myself, and it's very rewarding. Um, expect some blood during the first 10 shaves, unless your hands catch on quicker than mine did. Get an alum block (much much better than a styptic pencil) for that. Think shallow angles, and just try to scrape the lather off at first; the whiskers will come with it. People usually get sort of comfortable at about 30 shaves in, and proficient in 100. But somewhere in there, you're likely to wonder why you ever shaved any other way.


----------



## jwthaparc

Is there a cheap way to get into kamisori's? Or does that defeat the point? I would love to get one at some point, but my funds are quite a bit lower than a lot of others here. I know there are some fairly cheap ways to get into straight razors, but I haven't seen them for kamisori razors.


----------



## pgugger

Moooza said:


> The only suggestion I'd give is to consider removing the handle wrap - if it gets wet, it can cause rust.



Thanks, I hadn't thought of that and chose this one with the handle because I thought it would be easier to hold.



Rangen said:


> Congratulations! I shave with kamisoris myself, and it's very rewarding. Um, expect some blood during the first 10 shaves, unless your hands catch on quicker than mine did. Get an alum block (much much better than a styptic pencil) for that. Think shallow angles, and just try to scrape the lather off at first; the whiskers will come with it. People usually get sort of comfortable at about 30 shaves in, and proficient in 100. But somewhere in there, you're likely to wonder why you ever shaved any other way.



Thanks, I was afraid there might be blood. I will find out for myself this weekend! I better pick up an alum block before then...


----------



## zizirex

jwthaparc said:


> Is there a cheap way to get into kamisori's? Or does that defeat the point? I would love to get one at some point, but my funds are quite a bit lower than a lot of others here. I know there are some fairly cheap ways to get into straight razors, but I haven't seen them for kamisori razors.


I haven't seen a much review of cheaper Kamisori but one of the knife shops I went, told me about cheap kamisori that customers brought in to sharpen were pretty messed up. the bevel needs to grind in the water wheel to be flat and even.
maybe buying cheaper kamisori is like buying a cheaper single bevel where it might warp and messed up ura. 
Maybe try Shigeki tanaka Kamisori if it's available.


----------



## DavidPF

jwthaparc said:


> I know there are some fairly cheap ways to get into straight razors, but I haven't seen them for kamisori razors.


What are the cheaper ways for other straight razors?


----------



## zizirex

Gold Dollar 66. need some works but good enough to practice some muscle memory.


----------



## Luftmensch

Moooza said:


> There is nothing like an Iwasaki. I went the other way, from Iwasaki, to all of his apprentices.



Haha! We're walking the same path. Me too. But then again.... I wouldnt be surprised if we have the same sensei




jwthaparc said:


> Or does that defeat the point? I would love to get one at some point, but my funds are quite a bit lower than a lot of others here.



Mmmm.... Yes/No. Maybe I can make you feel better? Getting an Iwasaki is like getting a shigefusa or Kato. You don't _need_ an Iwasaki. You also don't _need_ a kamisori. You have to make a value judgement as to whether or not you see fair value at the asking price. For five years now I have been drooling over Iwasaki kamisoris. But I recognise the majority of that lust is irrational - they are gorgeous and I find their story somewhat romantic. As a shaving _tool_, I think they would be more clumsy than a symmetric straight razor. After all, we need to shave both sides of our face! So I have held off... Maybe you can apply the same rationale  .

Don't get me wrong, Im not trying to make anybody with a gorgeous tool feel bad (@pgugger - I am jealous). Nor am I claiming kamisoris are inferior... Perhaps one day I will get one myself


----------



## DavidPF

Luftmensch said:


> ... Nor am I claiming kamisoris are inferior ...


They're single-bevel? I had no idea.

I'll make the claim then - single-bevel razors with the handle parallel to the blade are vastly inferior for the job, just because they're single-bevel. They may be worth having just to admire the skill of the maker, but I plan to continue shaving both sides of my face.


----------



## Luftmensch

pgugger said:


> I haven't used it nor honed it yet, and* I have never even used a straight razor before*, but I like the craftsmanship, tradition, and the idea of having quality tools that can be used a lifetime.


(emphasis my own)

Congratulations on the purchase. I know exactly how you feel about well made tools. Iwasaki razors are beautiful. Their Kurouchi is very refined.




pgugger said:


> I have skimmed this thread and seen talk of various honing routines... anyone use this method successfully on a kamisori? Simple Straight Razor Honing.
> 
> Any other thoughts, warnings, suggestions before I put this thing to work?



I think I learned enough from reading razor forums and got fatigued by the time I came across Science of Sharp. I stopped researching the topic when I started getting results I liked. So I cant comment on that advice specifically.

I like to try and 'respect' tools by learning how to maintain and use them. This respect is proportional to how sentimental I am about the tool. If **I** were you, oil up that kamisori and put it into hibernation!

Single edge shaving has a technique to it. Razor honing has a technique to it. Learning both at the same time is challenging but not impossible (I did but in retrospect I wouldnt). My recommendation to people starting out is to separate the two. I even challenge people's desire to use a straight razor. You can get a lot of the advantages and experience by using a double-edged safety razor with a lot less fuss and maintenance! But lets take the straight razor as a (obvious) given.

If you are in the position to do so, get yourself two things.

First purchase yourself a basic double edge razor. The blades will only cost a few dollars. Handles/bodies can be purchased relatively cheaply. Spend a while learning to wet shave with the double edge razor. This will allow you to take honing and sharpness for granted while learning how to manipulate the tool and your skin.

Secondly, get yourself the cheapest high quality straight edge razor you can find (preferably new so you don't have to debug a used one). Make sure it has *good* steel. Since you have an Iwasaki, skip stainless steels and find a good carbon steel razor. While you are practising wet shaving with the safety razor, you can start to practice honing on the cheap straight edge razor. If you screw anything up it wont matter so much. Chalk it up as part of your education  Razor honing requires a delicate touch - you can ruin the aesthetics of a razor quite quickly on low grit stones (which you shouldnt need). It is hard to destroy a razor completely but not difficult to implement bad practice.

When you are confident you have a good edge on the straight razor see if it rivals a fresh disposable safety razor in tests. Still good? Try it out! By now hopefully your shaving technique has been informed the safety razor. Using a cut-throat should be less daunting. How does it feel on the skin? A 'sharp' razor still might not feel good on your skin - this could indicate that you have not quite reached the level of sharpness you need. If you are uncomfortable stop - you don't need to give yourself a terrible shaving rash. Make sure you can get to a point where the edge provides a comfortable shave*. When you get there, think about using the kamisori.

You don't have to to all this... but if you care about the Iwasaki I strongly recommend _at least_ getting a cheap straight razor to practice honing on.


* A bonus exercise would be to 'bread-knife' the cheap razor on a glass bottle so that you are forced to create a shaving edge from a legitimately blunt edge.


----------



## Luftmensch

DavidPF said:


> They're single-bevel? I had no idea.


They are... They are effectively a little, hollow-ground usuba for your face... (but not for skin katsuramuki )




DavidPF said:


> I'll make the claim then - single-bevel razors with the handle parallel to the blade are vastly inferior for the job, just because they're single-bevel. They may be worth having just to admire the skill of the maker, but I plan to continue shaving both sides of my face.



I wouldnt say inferior... just different. The single bevel might force purists to go ambidextrous. I don't think that is necessary. I believe you can use both sides. I imagine you would just have to be more mindful about the angle of the blade on your face. You would need to adjust it depending on what side of the blade you are using.


----------



## DavidPF

There's logic in the grind of an usuba. But no usable logic in transferring that design to shaving.


----------



## pgugger

Moooza said:


> Wonderful! There is nothing like an Iwasaki. I went the other way, from Iwasaki, to all of his apprentices.



You got me wondering whether I have a razor from Iwasaki himself or from his apprentice Mizuochi who now makes most razors under the Iwasaki brand, at least as I understand from some quick Googling. Aframes doesn't make the distinction in their product blurb, but I am guessing mine is made by Mizuochi from the various descriptions on other sites. Anyone here know for sure? If not, I'll ask Takeshi. Not planning on replacing it either way, though!


----------



## pgugger

Luftmensch said:


> (emphasis my own)
> 
> Congratulations on the purchase. I know exactly how you feel about well made tools. Iwasaki razors are beautiful. Their Kurouchi is very refined.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I learned enough from reading razor forums and got fatigued by the time I came across Science of Sharp. I stopped researching the topic when I started getting results I liked. So I cant comment on that advice specifically.
> 
> I like to try and 'respect' tools by learning how to maintain and use them. This respect is proportional to how sentimental I am about the tool. If **I** were you, oil up that kamisori and put it into hibernation!
> 
> Single edge shaving has a technique to it. Razor honing has a technique to it. Learning both at the same time is challenging but not impossible (I did but in retrospect I wouldnt). My recommendation to people starting out is to separate the two. I even challenge people's desire to use a straight razor. You can get a lot of the advantages and experience by using a double-edged safety razor with a lot less fuss and maintenance! But lets take the straight razor as a (obvious) given.
> 
> If you are in the position to do so, get yourself two things.
> 
> First purchase yourself a basic double edge razor. The blades will only cost a few dollars. Handles/bodies can be purchased relatively cheaply. Spend a while learning to wet shave with the double edge razor. This will allow you to take honing and sharpness for granted while learning how to manipulate the tool and your skin.
> 
> Secondly, get yourself the cheapest high quality straight edge razor you can find (preferably new so you don't have to debug a used one). Make sure it has *good* steel. Since you have an Iwasaki, skip stainless steels and find a good carbon steel razor. While you are practising wet shaving with the safety razor, you can start to practice honing on the cheap straight edge razor. If you screw anything up it wont matter so much. Chalk it up as part of your education  Razor honing requires a delicate touch - you can ruin the aesthetics of a razor quite quickly on low grit stones (which you shouldnt need). It is hard to destroy a razor completely but not difficult to implement bad practice.
> 
> When you are confident you have a good edge on the straight razor see if it rivals a fresh disposable safety razor in tests. Still good? Try it out! By now hopefully your shaving technique has been informed the safety razor. Using a cut-throat should be less daunting. How does it feel on the skin? A 'sharp' razor still might not feel good on your skin - this could indicate that you have not quite reached the level of sharpness you need. If you are uncomfortable stop - you don't need to give yourself a terrible shaving rash. Make sure you can get to a point where the edge provides a comfortable shave*. When you get there, think about using the kamisori.
> 
> You don't have to to all this... but if you care about the Iwasaki I strongly recommend _at least_ getting a cheap straight razor to practice honing on.
> 
> 
> * A bonus exercise would be to 'bread-knife' the cheap razor on a glass bottle so that you are forced to create a shaving edge from a legitimately blunt edge.



Thanks for this sage advice. Much appreciated to hear from those with experience. It is certainly a little overwhelming - but exciting - to be learning so many things at once. My plan for now is to take it very slowly and carefully, with both the honing and the shaving. But... I can't resist the urge to at least give the Iwasaki one or two tries  before fully admitting that you are probably right!


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

DavidPF said:


> There's logic in the grind of an usuba. But no usable logic in transferring that design to shaving.


The asymmetry is designed with the idea that the razor is being used by a barber shaving another person, so it would be held in the correct orientation throughout the shave. Oddly this appears at first as backwards with the large hollow facing the barber. Many people do use kamisori on both sides without much issue.

There are 'western kamasori' that have symmetrical grinds called kamisortas by a friend of mine.


----------



## pgugger

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> The asymmetry is designed with the idea that the razor is being used by a barber shaving another person, so it would be held in the correct orientation throughout the shave. Oddly this appears at first as backwards with the large hollow facing the barber. Many people do use kamisori on both sides without much issue.
> 
> There are 'western kamasori' that have symmetrical grinds called kamisortas by a friend of mine.



I have been curious about how these single-bevels are used in practice and came across a thread on a shaving forum that points out several established traditional Japanese barbers using both sides on their customers: Japanese barber kamisori shave

I am not sure what the norm is or what is most preferable but at least it seems to work well enough to use both sides as convenient.


----------



## stringer

DavidPF said:


> What are the cheaper ways for other straight razors?



There is always the auction site. For western straights or kamisoris. There's one seller that always has vintage kamisori lots available at about 6 for $100. I've been tempted but I already have about thirty pounds of straight razors I shouldn't be buying more.


----------



## Luftmensch

pgugger said:


> You got me wondering whether I have a razor from Iwasaki himself or from his apprentice Mizuochi who now makes most razors under the Iwasaki brand



Takeshi may know. 

I believe Shigeyoshi-san is effectively retired. Mizuochi-san has been making the razors at Iwasaki for a while. And he is not all that young either!! I would think of him as the successor rather than an apprentice. Of course I cant say for sure, but I would say the overwhelming odds are: you have a Mizuochi razor. That is great! He is a very, very capable blacksmith - a link in the chain of great Japanese blacksmiths. His work will be held in just as high regard when his output fades 



VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> The asymmetry is designed with the idea that the razor is being used by a barber shaving another person



 Exactly!


----------



## Rangen

The asymmetry really affects the honing regimen, but I use both sides on my face without really thinking about it, and have from the very beginning.


----------



## zizirex

Got a new straight razor by Nigara Hamono, Blue 2 and a nice pakka wood scale.







This razor is pretty messed up though, need some work as you can see here:









Hopefully, I can make a video of fixing it to the proper razor geometry.


----------



## jwthaparc

DavidPF said:


> What are the cheaper ways for other straight razors?


Others have already answered this, but ebay, gold dollars. Then there are people that buy used razors on ebay, and refurbish them. There is a site, I wish I could remember the name, but the guy who owns it sells, refurbished razors. He has a site unseen deal as well.


----------



## Moooza

pgugger said:


> You got me wondering whether I have a razor from Iwasaki himself or from his apprentice Mizuochi who now makes most razors under the Iwasaki brand, at least as I understand from some quick Googling. Aframes doesn't make the distinction in their product blurb, but I am guessing mine is made by Mizuochi from the various descriptions on other sites. Anyone here know for sure? If not, I'll ask Takeshi. Not planning on replacing it either way, though!



Iwasaki hasn't made razors for a long time. Even at his peak, he had help from many apprentices who would have assisted with many aspects of producing the blades. I have some statement pieces from the 70's 80's in tamahagane, and it's possible that even those wouldn't have been 100% made by Iwasaki himself.

Mizuochi is working under his tutelage and is a tremendous smith, using Iwasaki's techniques and steel - it will be an amazing blade. There's a reason so many of Iwasaki's 'apprentices' are the best there are - like Shigefusa, Kunikei, Heiji, Tsukasa Hinoura, etc.


----------



## pgugger

Ah, ok makes sense. Beyond general high reputation for traditional kamisori, I didn't know much of the history or the connections to other famous blacksmiths. Very cool.



Luftmensch said:


> I believe Shigeyoshi-san is effectively retired. Mizuochi-san has been making the razors at Iwasaki for a while. And he is not all that young either!! I would think of him as the successor rather than an apprentice. Of course I cant say for sure, but I would say the overwhelming odds are: you have a Mizuochi razor. That is great! He is a very, very capable blacksmith - a link in the chain of great Japanese blacksmiths. His work will be held in just as high regard when his output fades





Moooza said:


> Iwasaki hasn't made razors for a long time. Even at his peak, he had help from many apprentices who would have assisted with many aspects of producing the blades. I have some statement pieces from the 70's 80's in tamahagane, and it's possible that even those wouldn't have been 100% made by Iwasaki himself.
> 
> Mizuochi is working under his tutelage and is a tremendous smith, using Iwasaki's techniques and steel - it will be an amazing blade. There's a reason so many of Iwasaki's 'apprentices' are the best there are - like Shigefusa, Kunikei, Heiji, Tsukasa Hinoura, etc.


----------



## DavidPF

Rangen said:


> The asymmetry really affects the honing regimen, but I use both sides on my face without really thinking about it, and have from the very beginning.


If it really works well this way, I should stop arguing.


----------



## DavidPF

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> There are 'western kamasori' that have symmetrical grinds called kamisortas by a friend of mine.


Either kamisorta, or kamisorryaboutthat


----------



## DavidPF

Moooza said:


> There's a reason so many of Iwasaki's 'apprentices' are the best there are - like Shigefusa, Kunikei, Heiji, Tsukasa Hinoura, etc.


To be both a great maker AND a great teacher takes two sets of skills, and doesn't always happen. We've all seen the type who does good work but who doesn't do well as a teacher. It sounds like this man deserves a lot of credit.


----------



## inferno

zizirex said:


> Got a new straight razor by Nigara Hamono, Blue 2 and a nice pakka wood scale.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This razor is pretty messed up though, need some work as you can see here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully, I can make a video of fixing it to the proper razor geometry.



did it come like that new??


----------



## Rangen

zizirex said:


> Got a new straight razor by Nigara Hamono, Blue 2 and a nice pakka wood scale.
> Hopefully, I can make a video of fixing it to the proper razor geometry.



So, you plan to turn that frown upside down?

Sorry, couldn't resist.


----------



## inferno

DavidPF said:


> If it really works well this way, I should stop arguing.



yeah there is no problem shaving with them using both sides.

buuut kamisoris were originally intended for barbers to shave other people. or so i've heard.


----------



## Rangen

inferno said:


> yeah there is no problem shaving with them using both sides.
> 
> buuut kamisoris were originally intended for barbers to shave other people. or so i've heard.



I heard it was wives mostly, not barbers, but who knows.


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

I was pretty attracted to the simplicity of kami style blades when I started straights, but then you have to add a way to store the razor and the simplicity is gone. Conventional scaled razors are like folding pocket knives. A fixed blade is arguably a better knife, but a folder is just too practical.


----------



## zizirex

inferno said:


> did it come like that new??


Yeah, Which is sad. I got some credit though.



Rangen said:


> So, you plan to turn that frown upside down?
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist.



turn it flat like how it should be


----------



## Luftmensch

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> I was pretty attracted to the simplicity of kami style blades when I started straights, but then you have to add a way to store the razor and the simplicity is gone. Conventional scaled razors are like folding pocket knives. A fixed blade is arguably a better knife, but a folder is just too practical.



Huh! It is obvious now that you say it... but I had never thought of that! Interesting. I guess a little box or saya would do the trick... still, that is an interesting practical consideration.




zizirex said:


> Yeah, Which is sad.



Wow! That is disappointing. Seems like pretty basic QA. Sorry about that. Hopefully the other geometry is ok!

☹


----------



## DavidPF

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> Conventional scaled razors are like folding pocket knives. A fixed blade is arguably a better knife, ...


For ordinary knives, this is usually true, in terms of stability and strength. But razors don't fold the same way as pocket knives, and a razor with scales is exactly as stable and exactly as strong as one without.


----------



## inferno

i actually prefer the kamisoris just because they dont fold. i feel its easier to handle it.
with the folders you always have those scales flopping around around somewhere.


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

inferno said:


> i actually prefer the kamisoris just because they dont fold. i feel its easier to handle it.
> with the folders you always have those scales flopping around around somewhere.


With the scales at 90º to the blade (at least the way I shave) the mass of the scales helps stabilize the shaving angle. Actually elegant IMO. I find the scales handy for safely closing the razor between passes. I'm either shaving, stropping, or the razor is closed.


----------



## zizirex

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> With the scales at 90º to the blade (at least the way I shave) the mass of the scales helps stabilize the shaving angle. Actually elegant IMO. I find the scales handy for safely closing the razor between passes. I'm either shaving, stropping, or the razor is closed.


+1


----------



## captaincaed

captaincaed said:


> Wondering if the collective wisdom can shine a light on something. I’m also interested in straight razors to reduce waste. I know the cost savings angle is self-deception.
> 
> Picked this up as a first to learn on. It’ll get shaving sharp, but doesn’t shave as well as a safety razor or a Harry’s. It eventually does the job, but not terribly comfortable. I’ve worked it over with blue, yellow coticules, black Ark, translucent Ark, wet and dry for all, leather strop with 1micron diamond, plain balsa. Can’t seem to get that HHT sharpness.
> 
> I realize that I may have a lot more to learn on the sharpening, but also curious to know if anyone has an instinct on whether this razor is worth putting more work into, or maybe upgrading to something else.



For posterity, wanted to follow up on this.
Listening to Chuckles and Stringer, I invested in an honest-to-goodness hanging razor strop with good cotton strip as well.

What a difference.

After some more careful work, the stainless razor is now tree-topping leg hair easily, and tree-topping arm hair, though I need to hold it a bit closer to my arm (no skin contact though). So yeah, lesson learned.


----------



## inferno

i finally finished my ultrafine. it was quite warped from factory, and it had tons of stray particles that i simply knocked off with a sharpmaker rod.

but now its completely flat on both sides, 1 side coarse, 1 side UF (dmt 325 as final finish). i did most of the work with SiC powder in different grits.
took maybe 15-20 minutes per side. and then like 30 minutes on the dmt. the stone makes a zing sound on the dmt.

the finish now on the fine side is shiny but not like a piece of glass.


----------



## 4wa1l

Two quick questions about razors.

Is there an equivalent razor to something like a Victorinox knife? Looking for a no-frills recommended starting point on a budget.

Also after watching some youtube videos about jnats it seems to me that when sharpening a razor, all that is required is to lay it flat so the edge and rounded spine section are both touching and just go from there. Even when "setting a bevel". Is there more to it when it comes to razors or are they relatively simple to sharpen?


----------



## DavidPF

4wa1l said:


> Is there an equivalent razor to something like a Victorinox knife?


Up this thread somewhere the "Gold Dollar" brand was recommended in that way.


----------



## kayman67

Gold Dollar, but it's a project razor most of the time, unless someone else did it first. 
I'd say older not so famous razors or kamisori are still better and affordable. 
About how the razor sits, if the razor has a decent geometry, you're in business. But often enough, that's not happening. So you might read about rolling X-s, one inch honing, convex stones and so on.


----------



## inferno

starting to think about shaving my head again. i used to have a shaved head for many years but now the last few years i just use the trimmer. 
i feel my iwasaki needs to be put to work.

also @stringer can you provide us with a list of your razors that you seem to have accumulated? and which ones you think are good?


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> starting to think about shaving my head again. i used to have a shaved head for many years but now the last few years i just use the trimmer.
> i feel my iwasaki needs to be put to work.
> 
> also @stringer can you provide us with a list of your razors that you seem to have accumulated? and which ones you think are good?



I like Japanese razors the best. They generally have harder steel and heavier grinders. But they are expensive. Sheffield razors look the most badass but don't shave that great for me and are also expensive. The bulk of my collection is turn of the century German blades. I also have a bunch of American blades from New England and New York. Here's a thread I did on my favorite brand on B&B.









Friedmann & Lauterjung / Electric Cutlery


J. Christopher Friedmann and Charles R. Lauterjung immigrated to New York City from Germany as young men in the 1860s. They established a cutlery importing business in 1864, branded as Friedmann and Lauterjung. I have not been able to find any proof, but it is theorized by various internet chat...




www.badgerandblade.com


----------



## Rangen

inferno said:


> starting to think about shaving my head again. i used to have a shaved head for many years but now the last few years i just use the trimmer.
> i feel my iwasaki needs to be put to work.



I'm impressed. I've read reports from seasoned straight razor shavers who draw the line at doing their heads. Any tips? I don't need to do that myself right now, but it doesn't take a futurist to predict this trend.


----------



## inferno

shaving your head is much much easier than shaving your face..

maybe start with a gillette 3-5blade the first 2 times to get a hang of it?


----------



## Rangen

inferno said:


> shaving your head is much much easier than shaving your face..
> maybe start with a gillette 3-5blade the first 2 times to get a hang of it?



But I can see my whole face.


----------



## inferno

the head is like a ball, and its easy to stretch the skin where needed. you can do it in complete darkness if you want. by feel. the face has lots of weird curves. and its not very easy to stretch all of it. i think its easier to do the head at least. but i did it for about 10 years almost daily.


----------



## Desert Rat

I plan to do more digging into the jaspers, agates and petrified woods, what I consider post finishers. I am surrounded with the natural occurring material. The biggest problem has been getting it flat enough but I am working on that as well. 
The more uniform colored material may be better as color change sometimes marks differences in the stone. Not unlike arks and other naturals. 
They produce very sharp and comfortable shaves.


----------



## captaincaed

I'd really love to try a jasper or the like someday soon. I'm still figuring out coticule and Arks, and when I feel like I get those down...


----------



## Checkpure

Any Kamisori recommendations (value exceeding price more important than price)? Also a good finishing stone for razors? I shave my head regularly and keep a groomed beard, love my nice trimmers (Babyliss Pros).


----------



## Rangen

Checkpure said:


> Any Kamisori recommendations (value exceeding price more important than price)? Also a good finishing stone for razors? I shave my head regularly and keep a groomed beard, love my nice trimmers (Babyliss Pros).



Iwasaki seems to have the "best kamisori" field all to himself these days. I don't even know who's in second place.

Finishing stone for razors is a much more complicated topic. Among the synthetics, there's a Naniwa 12000 that people like, and also a particular Suehiro 20K, for which the caveat is that, while it is supremely effective at the job, it has almost no feedback whatsoever.

Then we get to the naturals. I cannot speak with any authority about the Arkansas stones and Coticules and jaspers and such, I can only give a warning based on some experience with seriously hard stones: be careful that once you get your edge so perfect that it makes suction against the stone and the water, you do not let it chatter. I've done some edge damage that way.

I use a JNat, but it was seriously expensive, bought from one of the recognized experts on this forum because I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time when it was offered, and I feel fortunate to have it every time I use it, which is often. So that's no help.

There are people out there who say that you can take a green Asagi, a stone I love so much I somehow wound up with three of them, and slurry it with the Big 4 of Nagura types, and do as much with it as you could do with any Kiita or other JNat fine exotica, but I've personally never been able to make that work, try as I might. Maybe with the right tutorial...


----------



## Checkpure

Rangen said:


> Iwasaki seems to have the "best kamisori" field all to himself these days. I don't even know who's in second place.
> 
> Finishing stone for razors is a much more complicated topic. Among the synthetics, there's a Naniwa 12000 that people like, and also a particular Suehiro 20K, for which the caveat is that, while it is supremely effective at the job, it has almost no feedback whatsoever.
> 
> Then we get to the naturals. I cannot speak with any authority about the Arkansas stones and Coticules and jaspers and such, I can only give a warning based on some experience with seriously hard stones: be careful that once you get your edge so perfect that it makes suction against the stone and the water, you do not let it chatter. I've done some edge damage that way.
> 
> I use a JNat, but it was seriously expensive, bought from one of the recognized experts on this forum because I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time when it was offered, and I feel fortunate to have it every time I use it, which is often. So that's no help.
> 
> There are people out there who say that you can take a green Asagi, a stone I love so much I somehow wound up with three of them, and slurry it with the Big 4 of Nagura types, and do as much with it as you could do with any Kiita or other JNat fine exotica, but I've personally never been able to make that work, try as I might. Maybe with the right tutorial...


Thanks for the help! This guy Keith V. Johnson on youtube cracks me up and seems to know his **** well. Zero nonsense guy and gives good advice. I guess I have to find a decent deal on a Iwasaki.


----------



## captaincaed

Knowledgeable or not, that man is windier than Patagonia


----------



## Luftmensch

Keith a.k.a http://www.tomonagura.com is great!



Checkpure said:


> love my nice trimmers



I have an Andis. It is pretty great. I wanted to buy a Wahl but they only sell pet trimmers locally. 

I had several consumer brands that kept breaking after several years. I also dislike batteries running out during a trim - the teeth would bog on my beard. Pulling a bogged trimmer off your beard is always a little painfully funny! I went the other way and decided to try a corded 'commercial' model. The power of the Andis is nice!




Checkpure said:


> Any Kamisori recommendations (value exceeding price more important than price)?





Asking us to judge _value_ for you is somewhat irrational... You will find it difficult to find an Iwasaki that is 'good value'. The shaving community recognises Iwasaki as miniature pieces of high craftsmanship. Their price is set accordingly. For new and used....

Depending on what you mean, value exceeding price is more likely to happen buying a lesser known or unrecognised brand (possibly a second hand one).




Rangen said:


> Iwasaki seems to have the "best kamisori" field all to himself these days. I don't even know who's in second place.



There is clear consensus (through market pricing) that Iwasaki are desirable. In case @Rangen's point is not obvious, to make it clear for @Checkpure, 'best' is also a value judgement. Iwasaki are priced in the same way as Kato or Shigefua. You buy them out of an interest in the tradition and to celebrate a lineage of craftsmanship. Best performers? Not necessarily. Best availability? Definitely not. Best value? That is for you to judge... but likely not.


----------



## Luftmensch

4wa1l said:


> Is there an equivalent razor to something like a Victorinox knife? Looking for a no-frills recommended starting point on a budget.



Hey @4wa1l, my recommendation would be an entry line thiers issard or Dovo. They are not 'bottom of the barrel cheap'... but they are generally no-nonsense, use out the box razors.... (although you'd benefit from your own edge).


----------



## Checkpure

Well thanks to the help of an awesome forum member I’ve got a Iwasaki and accessories on the way. Nothing like this site to get you spending at all hours. Excited though!


----------



## Desert Rat

Checkpure said:


> Well thanks to the help of an awesome forum member I’ve got a Iwasaki and accessories on the way. Nothing like this site to get you spending at all hours. Excited though!


 Iwasaki, Mr. Ryoichi Mizuochi showing Iwasaki honing - YouTube


----------



## inferno

just got this one. very smooth and easy going with the feather blades. almost as a mach 3. almost. i started whipping this around like a mach3 after a while and i got about 50 or so minor cuts. but this one is very friendly. i assumed this would be like shaving with a straight. but its much much milder. and much faster, almost like a mach3.

i think i'm gonna shim mine with a used up blade when i have one. to make it cut deeper.
also probably have to drill out the handle to make it lighter. i want it at maybe half as heavy.

the head parts seems to be either cast or MIM. not machined from billet at least. i can see the cast/mim runners. 

it still feels like a very good razor. its my first DE razor though.


----------



## inferno

also that part that seems to be sticking out of the lower side of the head is actually the bottom side of the head resting on the stone you're seeing. i was shooting at an angle.


----------



## inferno

took some more pics. hope you can see what i see. those small rings. those are either some casting marks or marks from MIM manufacturing. 
and the branding itself is a dead giveaway.


----------



## Luftmensch

inferno said:


> this one is very friendly. i assumed this would be like shaving with a straight. but its much much milder. and much faster, almost like a mach3.





Thats why I try to convince people out of straight razor shaving and into double-edged shaving. When I was double-edge shaving, I think I prefered Astra blades? My memory is hazy maybe it was Merkur? What I do remember is that I found Feather blades to cause more skin irritation than the others! You can have fun trying out different razors. Shaving shops often sell sample packs


----------



## Checkpure

Been using a DE (safety razor) for years on my head. Sometimes I just use it to knock down longer hair when I go a while in between shaves (long hair clogs up multi blade disposables). Excited to try the straight edge soon though.


----------



## tcmx3

ooh I wasnt sure we could talk about DEs. I have a bunch, my daily drivers are the Blackland Blackbird and CG lvl 2, of which I own 3. I like the Personna med prep blades in all of these. 

what soaps do you guys like? right now Im enjoying some Declaration Grooming Mayflower, and up next I have a Barrister & Mann Vespers


----------



## Rangen

tcmx3 said:


> what soaps do you guys like? right now Im enjoying some Declaration Grooming Mayflower, and up next I have a Barrister & Mann Vespers



Declaration Grooming is great slick stuff; I like Massacre of the Innocents. 
Mike's lime is wonderful.
Tallow and Steel Sicily is great.
Mitchell's Wool Fat is a regular go-to
Saponifico Varesino Desert Vetiver is pricy, but a container lasts longer. Just wonderful, but not as full a lather as the first three. But shaving with a straight, I prefer my lather on the thin, very moist side.


----------



## inferno

i only have the klar soad as of now. heardhood things about haslinger so i ordered some fo that.


----------



## tcmx3

Rangen said:


> Declaration Grooming is great slick stuff; I like Massacre of the Innocents.
> Mike's lime is wonderful.
> Tallow and Steel Sicily is great.
> Mitchell's Wool Fat is a regular go-to
> Saponifico Varesino Desert Vetiver is pricy, but a container lasts longer. Just wonderful, but not as full a lather as the first three. But shaving with a straight, I prefer my lather on the thin, very moist side.



Havent tried Mike's Lime. Tallow & Steel Ive had varying success with over the years; some of the gens have been great others not to my preference.

My favorite bases Ive tried are 1. Barrister & Mann excelsior, 2. DG Icarus and 3. Arianna & Evans kaizen. But I havent bought a new soap in a while as I have a MASSIVE backlog. That said, B&M reserve Lavender is my all time favorite soap. Absolutely love it.


----------



## stringer

I use baum.be shaving cream. It was pretty much the first thing I tried after giving up the can of foam and I have stuck with it so I can't really compare it to anything else. I usually have a beard so the $25 container lasts me about a year for neck shaves and cheek cleanup. It is very slick and performs well with a wet loose lather or a big thick one depending on my mood. The smell is very mild and soapy.


----------



## inferno

so i shaved with the feather again today. it went better this time but i still cant get a really close shave with it. i have to practice some more with it i guess. 

also just shaved my dome with it. it works. a bit slow compared to mach3 types. maybe 5-10 times slower. a DE is really picky with angles i noticed. a straight will shave no matter what angle, it just hurts more/less  

i had to finish it with a disposable since when i shave my head i want it completely perfect. and to get it there it would have taken me at least 10 more minutes with the feather. but yeah 99% done is ok for the first try i think.

i have not given up on the feather just yet. i will try it with different blades and shims. just have to get the first one dull first.

also recieved another DE. the "gamechanger". wow this one is really machined well. tolerances are very tight. probably as good as its gonna get unless you pay a lot more. whenever you machine stuff to one tolerance level higher/tighter you basically double to the cost of the part.


----------



## inferno

tcmx3 said:


> ooh I wasnt sure we could talk about DEs. I have a bunch, my daily drivers are the Blackland Blackbird and CG lvl 2, of which I own 3. I like the Personna med prep blades in all of these.
> 
> what soaps do you guys like? right now Im enjoying some Declaration Grooming Mayflower, and up next I have a Barrister & Mann Vespers
> 
> View attachment 122595



so which is the best one out of those you think? 
anyone you dislike?
btw what models are these?


----------



## WPerry

inferno said:


> so i shaved with the feather again today. it went better this time but i still cant get a really close shave with it. i have to practice some more with it i guess.
> 
> also just shaved my dome with it. it works. a bit slow compared to mach3 types. maybe 5-10 times slower. a DE is really picky with angles i noticed. a straight will shave no matter what angle, it just hurts more/less
> 
> i had to finish it with a disposable since when i shave my head i want it completely perfect. and to get it there it would have taken me at least 10 more minutes with the feather. but yeah 99% done is ok for the first try i think.
> 
> i have not given up on the feather just yet. i will try it with different blades and shims. just have to get the first one dull first.
> 
> also recieved another DE. the "gamechanger". wow this one is really machined well. tolerances are very tight. probably as good as its gonna get unless you pay a lot more. whenever you machine stuff to one tolerance level higher/tighter you basically double to the cost of the part.
> 
> View attachment 122888
> 
> 
> View attachment 122889


Nice! I just saw your post on the previous page, about shimming the other razor, and I was going to mention the Gamechanger. I have a .68P that I really like.

I enjoy trying a bunch of blades but, so far, my overall favorites are Astra Platinum and Gillette Silver Blue.


----------



## Checkpure

inferno said:


> so i shaved with the feather again today. it went better this time but i still cant get a really close shave with it. i have to practice some more with it i guess.
> 
> also just shaved my dome with it. it works. a bit slow compared to mach3 types. maybe 5-10 times slower. a DE is really picky with angles i noticed. a straight will shave no matter what angle, it just hurts more/less
> 
> i had to finish it with a disposable since when i shave my head i want it completely perfect. and to get it there it would have taken me at least 10 more minutes with the feather. but yeah 99% done is ok for the first try i think.
> 
> i have not given up on the feather just yet. i will try it with different blades and shims. just have to get the first one dull first.
> 
> also recieved another DE. the "gamechanger". wow this one is really machined well. tolerances are very tight. probably as good as its gonna get unless you pay a lot more. whenever you machine stuff to one tolerance level higher/tighter you basically double to the cost of the part.
> 
> View attachment 122888
> 
> 
> View attachment 122889


I just use my DE to knock down long hair that would clog the disposable multi-blades up (on my head). If you have time you can re soap your head and do an against the grain pass that will leave it perfectly shaved otherwise I just do it quickly with the multi blade quickly. I'm hoping to replace this with the kamisori I have coming today but we'll see, i've let the head hair grow out for its first run.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> so which is the best one out of those you think?
> anyone you dislike?
> btw what models are these?



ikon twist slant, blackland blackbird, timeless 95 OC, charcoal goods lvl 2, raw shaving rs-10, paradigm 17-4, wolfman wr2, a different CG lvl 2

theyre all fine except the ikon which just isnt in the same league. the one I use the most is the Blackbird, good solid razor and not too much money. the best is probably the wolfman though.


----------



## tcmx3

also somewhere I have like every palladin brush ever made it feels like, but tbh I actually use a synthetic brush lol.


----------



## Ceriano

Does anybody have experience with Ralf Aust? How do they compare with Dovo and Thiers Issard?


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

I would rather have a Ralf Aust over a Dovo or TI. Plus, the Aust will come truly shave ready.


----------



## inferno

minor update. 

tried shaving with the gamechanger 0,84mm and that shave was A LOT better and closer than the feather. 

ground down 2 blades on a d-plate to use as shims under the blade for the feather. it looks like i might need 4 to get close the gamechanger geometry though. 

the feather is very "tight", not much room under the blade and not much above it either. and probably a neutral edge exposure. 
the gamechanger is at the very least double the room under and over the blade but the exposure might be neutral with this one too. i just eyeballed it. 

but there is a very big difference with these 2 razors. 

maybe i'll snap some pics. 

so, you guys think this would be a good time shaving my dong? what could possibly go wrong?


----------



## BillHanna

Who dares, wins.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> minor update.
> 
> tried shaving with the gamechanger 0,84mm and that shave was A LOT better and closer than the feather.



is it better because it's closer, or is it better because the feather has chatter, movement, etc? if I were actually to shave with Feather/KAI, and I do have some of both around most of the time, Id want a more mild razer for sure. I suspect their razer is made with that in mind.

part of why I use med preps is actually theyre a bit less aggro so I can safely use them even in my timeless and CG lvl 3 head, both of which are insanely aggressive


----------



## inferno

also got several unsolicited good responses on my headshave at work today. i usually just use the trimmer at 0. well well.


----------



## inferno

BillHanna said:


> Who dares, wins.


fukkin a


----------



## inferno

tcmx3 said:


> is it better because it's closer, or is it better because the feather has chatter, movement, etc? if I were actually to shave with Feather/KAI, and I do have some of both around most of the time, Id want a more mild razer for sure. I suspect their razer is made with that in mind.
> 
> part of why I use med preps is actually theyre a bit less aggro so I can safely use them even in my timeless and CG lvl 3 head, both of which are insanely aggressive



its better because it shaves much much closer. dont know how hard i would have to push the feather to get this close/smooth as i did with the gamechanger 84. but probably very very hard. too hard. also used another blade. some gillette 7 stainless, green pack. i did like 5-6 passes in my trouble areas. 

and after that i could only feel completely smooth skin. but i feel i can actually dig deeper with my mach3. since its so forgiving. and you can do 25 passes if you want to. cant beat that.. but its very unsexy.

both razors seems ultra solid. i dont feel any chatter or anything. but i'm also completely new to this. but i do have experience shaving with striaghts and kamisoris. not a pro though.

i use the the feather with feather blades. but the gamechanger with gillette 7. and the gamechanger produced a lot less irritation too. 

now i'm looking at an "above the tie" H1 razor. this is their most aggressive type, not open comb. any guesses how aggressive this will be? maybe i should just stick with the gamechanger 84. maybe i need that?

i think i'm gonna shim the gamechanger too and see what it can do.


----------



## inferno

yeah just wanted to add that its extremely obvious whats going on when you look at these 2 razors from the side. one is mild and one digs deep. and you can understand why very easily.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> its better because it shaves much much closer. dont know how hard i would have to push the feather to get this close/smooth as i did with the gamechanger 84. but probably very very hard. too hard. also used another blade. some gillette 7 stainless, green pack. i did like 5-6 passes in my trouble areas.
> 
> and after that i could only feel completely smooth skin. but i feel i can actually dig deeper with my mach3. since its so forgiving. and you can do 25 passes if you want to. cant beat that.. but its very unsexy.
> 
> both razors seems ultra solid. i dont feel any chatter or anything. but i'm also completely new to this. but i do have experience shaving with striaghts and kamisoris. not a pro though.
> 
> i use the the feather with feather blades. but the gamechanger with gillette 7. and the gamechanger produced a lot less irritation too.
> 
> now i'm looking at an "above the tie" H1 razor. this is their most aggressive type, not open comb. any guesses how aggressive this will be? maybe i should just stick with the gamechanger 84. maybe i need that?
> 
> i think i'm gonna shim the gamechanger too and see what it can do.



I havent played with ATT, but they have a great reputation and I think that if you get one at the level of aggression you like, it's hard to go wrong.

If you like aggression though, I would recommend Timeless .95 open comb. For me one pass on that guy is already really, really insanely close. Two passes only on special occasions. Amazing razer though, super super rigid blade clamping. Ti or Stainless, both are fantastic.


----------



## inferno

i shot some pics with my cameras. handheld. in available dark (indoors propped up right in front of my computer.) iso 3200. f11.
nikon d500 with a tamron 90mm macro. 
fuji h1 with fuji 80 macro. 
not an easy task. tried to focus on the actual blade.

left is feather. nikon pic first. its all just luck. 
as you can see i already mounted the spacers behind the feather blade in the feather razor. it is what it is. but you get the point. 
originally the blade would be in the position of the lowest spacer i guess for the feather. its not a big difference but it is a difference.


----------



## WPerry

inferno said:


> and after that i could only feel completely smooth skin. but i feel i can actually dig deeper with my mach3. since its so forgiving.



Carts often shave "closer" because, with multiple blades, they're lifting and cutting the hair. That's great if you want an immediately smooth shave, but it can also lead to irritation, ingrowns, etc. Going to a DE safety razor has been much, much better for my skin. 

Question though - what's your shaving process look like? With DE razors, it's common to do the first pass with the grain. After that, many will do a second pass across the grain. After that, some will do a third against the grain. It's all personal, though, and depends on how close you want to go, how much time you want to spend and how well your skin tolerates it. Personally, I usually just do a single pass on my head, two passes on my face (WTG, XTG).


----------



## inferno

tcmx3 said:


> I havent played with ATT, but they have a great reputation and I think that if you get one at the level of aggression you like, it's hard to go wrong.
> 
> If you like aggression though, I would recommend Timeless .95 open comb. For me one pass on that guy is already really, really insanely close. Two passes only on special occasions. Amazing razer though, super super rigid blade clamping. Ti or Stainless, both are fantastic.



for me i'd say the aggression of the GC84 is good enough. yeah this is good for me. it digs deep enough.

but i'm wanting to try out some soaps and i see one retailer has these soaps i want on sale. since these would be going across the pond i might just as well throw in a razor when i order. to soften the blow. i mean it would not be sane to buy only these soaps. but hey it would be even more insane to buy these soaps locally. like 10X as insane.  so yeah. so i figured why not order a razor too?

i feel i have room for another razor. and i feel like a need an aggressive one. but preferable not open. since my skin is full of scars. and i see this retailer carries this brand. above the tie. and also rockwell. but to be honest i'm not really sold on rockwell. its all 100% mim. mim is ****. but for this application i guess it wont matter at all. yeah i'll give them that. 

but i also read the rockwell heads are bulky. so no. i rather pay a bit more and get the ATT one. starting to feel like a real connoisseur


----------



## inferno

WPerry said:


> Carts often shave "closer" because, with multiple blades, they're lifting and cutting the hair. That's great if you want an immediately smooth shave, but it can also lead to irritation, ingrowns, etc. Going to a DE safety razor has been much, much better for my skin.
> 
> Question though - what's your shaving process look like? With DE razors, it's common to do the first pass with the grain. After that, many will do a second pass across the grain. After that, some will do a third against the grain. It's all personal, though, and depends on how close you want to go, how much time you want to spend and how well your skin tolerates it. Personally, I usually just do a single pass on my head, two passes on my face (WTG, XTG).



when i actually do shave i want to go as deep as possible. then i let it go for 2-3 days.

this last year it has been only philips trimmer on 0 (i threw out the height setting part 15 years ago). had this one for 20 years and had to resolder the cables 2 times. it was 25€. style.

my process is like this: 

mach3:
wtg
atg/xtg until completely smooth. it might take 10 passes but i dont stop until its completely done. 
this is how i do it both for the head and face. behind the ears might take 10 passes even with a mach3. to get it 100%

face is usually 3 regular passes. but this is very forgiving with a mach 3.
head is usually 2 passes and problem areas maybe 6-10 passes. 

i'm no stranger to danger though. thinking about shaving my whole body with the feather tomorrow. just to get a feel for it with the spacers. so i can get a feel for its preferred angle. just for fun.


----------



## inferno

tried out the feather with the spacers. its definitely a closer shave now. but its still quite picky with angles. the gamechanger is very forgiving with angles i feel. i think i like the gamechanger more.


----------



## inferno

i bought a razorock gamechanger jaws 0.84mm 





so after a few shaves with all the razors this is my results and thoughts (so far). and future plans.

the feather is very mild. it almost feels like it doesn't cut at all. the shave doesn't last very long. this gets better with spacers/shims to increase blade gap.
still the angle of operation is very narrow.

the gamechanger 84. dont really know what i should think of it. it cuts much deeper than the feather. but still i have problems under my jawline to get a truly clean shave. and its not like you can go over these parts very many times until its good. but i often try  and then i get quite irritated skin.
i feel no matter what i do with this one i will get irritated skin if i'm aiming for a fairly good clean close shave. i have not tried shimming it yet.

jaws. well this one digs even deeper than the regular gamechanger. i had read about open combs being aggressive shavers. but i also read about them getting more soap to the blade than a safety bar and that reduce irritation.
with this one i can actually get a really good close shave that lasts! and i dont have to go over the problem areas 20 times. so less irritation with this one.

today i shaved with my mach3 for reference. and its almost impossible to get cuts from it. and its very mild somehow. buuut i can push it hard into my skin so i can get a quite close shave with it. and i can go over my problem areas 10 times to get truly smooth without much irritation.

now all this got me thinking. first i'm thinking open combs is where i'm heading. then i'm thinking timeless titanium 0.95mm OC. its supposed to be smooth. and it looks kick ass!

then on the other hand i'm thinking about just starting pushing the feather harder like i do with a mach3. or even reverse shimming the gamechanger SB so i can push it harder.

anyone with experience? thoughts?


----------



## Lars

inferno said:


> anyone with experience? thoughts?



I tried a few different ones five years ago and open comb was way too agressive for me.
I settled on a Merkur 34C with Voskhod blades and have been shaving happily ever since.


----------



## WPerry

inferno said:


> anyone with experience? thoughts?



The only times that I've gotten sliced up good with a DE is when I put pressure on the razor; since finally learning that lesson, I generally don't go much beyond letting the weight of the razor do the work. That said, I like being smooth, but I'm not nearly as much of stickler for it as you seem to be.

Have you tried a number of different blades, yet? You can get variety packs from multiple vendors, even on Amazon. They can make quite the difference. In your position, I might take the time to play with different blades with the OC GC.


----------



## tcmx3

@inferno I dont feel that DEs ever match other razers for closeness unless you get a SUPER aggressive one, but because they are mild when used for what they do you get a good shave and skin that feels good afterwards.

as far as shaving around your jaw, I personally just pull my skin a bit so I can get a nice flat area to shave. it helps that Im still relatively young and quite thin so such things arent hard for me.

my next razor is the Blackland Tradere for sure. meant to get one ages ago but never got to it.


----------



## inferno

WPerry said:


> The only times that I've gotten sliced up good with a DE is when I put pressure on the razor; since finally learning that lesson, I generally don't go much beyond letting the weight of the razor do the work. That said, I like being smooth, but I'm not nearly as much of stickler for it as you seem to be.
> 
> Have you tried a number of different blades, yet? You can get variety packs from multiple vendors, even on Amazon. They can make quite the difference. In your position, I might take the time to play with different blades with the OC GC.



no only tried the gillette 7 days stainless so far, and the feather in the feather. 

i had a very rough shave just now with the jaws. i think i overdid it. gonna try some milder blades in all the razors next time.


----------



## inferno

tcmx3 said:


> @inferno I dont feel that DEs ever match other razers for closeness unless you get a SUPER aggressive one, but because they are mild when used for what they do you get a good shave and skin that feels good afterwards.
> 
> as far as shaving around your jaw, I personally just pull my skin a bit so I can get a nice flat area to shave. it helps that Im still relatively young and quite thin so such things arent hard for me.
> 
> my next razor is the Blackland Tradere for sure. meant to get one ages ago but never got to it.



i want a tradere too. at least the handle. i cut up some 6al4v ti rod today. gonna make my own tradere handle 

btw how do you like the blackbird? i've read it super aggressive and you have to be very careful with it. something i'm not very good at it seems.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> i want a tradere too. at least the handle. i cut up some 6al4v ti rod today. gonna make my own tradere handle
> 
> btw how do you like the blackbird? i've read it super aggressive and you have to be very careful with it. something i'm not very good at it seems.



well I have the solid bar one, and while it's more aggressive than say, a Charcoal Goods level 2, or that Feather you own (by a lot), it's NOTHING compared to a CG lvl 3, and it's definitely less aggressive than the Timeless 95 OC you also see in the picture I posted.

I *really* like the Blackbird and It's my favorite razer. For me it's just the right level of aggressive to do a single pass shave, and I can do a cross-grain pass if I wanna get closer.


----------



## inferno

i tried the feather again today with 2 shims/ground blades to make it more aggressive. and the shave was super good. no irritation. very happy. 
i could go over the trouble areas without getting totally destroyed. the feather is starting to grow on me. i'm glad i got it.

oh i also kinda went all in on a timeless. open comb, all ti. gonna look exactly like this i guess  this is gonna kick so much ass! i used to work in manufacturing. programming and running cnc machines but with a bit beefier parts. like 700kg up to 3-4 tons. so i really appreciate this all this cnc porn. a real piece of art.


----------



## inferno

today i shaved with the GC 84 SB with the gillette 7 o clock blade again. used the klar klassik soap. only used minor pressure. 3 pass. plus a bit extra where needed. this time i didn't go too far though. and it was a very good shave. no cuts. very minor irritation only.
so yeah the gamechanger will work.

recently i've been thinking about soaps. i need more soaps. thinking about getting the Truefitt and Hill sandalwood. kent/wool fat. and D.R Harris Marlborough. i also want to try try the golddachs lineup.

so far i think all my soaps have performed well. but some smell better than the others.

tabac - smells quite good, medium level. smells like classic shaving, soapy, unoffensive somehow. a bit too tame. scent power 5.

haslinger ringelblume - smells very good. much better than tabac. masculine flowers. power maybe 5-6.

haslinger sandelholz - smells good. not as good as the other haslinger though. but almost there. refreshing but not bland. power 5.

mühle buckthorn - smells very "soapy" and a bit fruity/flowery. "mild" somehow. scent power maybe 3-4. not used this one yet.

haslinger aloe vera - doesn't smell good at all. but not bad either. quite mild and tame. scent power maybe 3. not used yet.

klar klassik - this is fvcking intoxicating! very unoffensive. smells clean, fresh, round and warm, basically like you would expect a shaving soap to smell. hard to describe but this one smells awesome. wow. compared to the others this one i prefer klar by a large margin. its just pure quality. the haslinger ringelblume is my no2. but this one is so much better smelling.
scent power maybe 7. dont know if it actually smells _more_ than the tabac but its a more penetrating scent for sure.

i think i need to get the klar sport too. they have been making soaps since 1840 so i guess they know how its done by now. and many people seems to like the klar sport.


----------



## inferno

oh yeah also sanded down the knurling a bit on my razorock superknurl and ufo handle. these handles have very coarse knurling, probably 30degree, 1,5mm pitch or so i guess. and those knurls terminated to a very sharp pyramid edge. very clean knurls, seems to be pressformed and not cut ones. very grippy, but not very comfortable. way way too sharp. 

but since i'm an old machinist i know its supposed to be done though. you always take the tops off with a sandpaper. i put an m5 screw in a cordless drill, threaded the handles on there. wrapped a p1000 paper around the handles and started sanding. 1-2 minutes. done. now thery're really good. just as grippy but they wont cut into your skin. feels more refined.


----------



## inferno

i went on a soap binge. some scent reviews:

kent (same as mitchells wool fat) - smells almost nothing, maybe wet wool. it is very healing for your skin though. very good product imo.

d.r harris marlborough - smells very little, an whatever its now smells is very bland, i dont like it at all. worst soap i have ever smelled. 
should have gotten the windsor..

truefitt and hill 1805. smells wonderful. it really smells like an ocean. medium powerful.

truefitt and hill sandalwood - smells even better than the 1805. really classy. medium powerful. smells nothing like haslingers sandalwood.

taylor of old bond street sandalwood - smells very good! also extremely powerful, its smells a bit too much to be honest. smells nothing like T&H or haslingers sandalwood.

-----------

so i ended up with 2 soaps that smell almost nothing and one smelled quite bad to be honest. but both are tallow based and said to be among the very best.
so what i did is: grated them down with a cheese grater and then mixed the kent with the taylor 50/50 and this tamed the smell down to a better, more normal level. still smells wonderful from the taylors.

then i grated the d.r harris and mixed it 50-25-25% harris, palmolive green olive hand soap, some french boutique lavender hand soap. and now it smells really nice imo. and it lathers very good. 

i used the harris mix today and i feel it was better than the kent (unmixed), and it smells good! better lather, same protection and same smooth healing effect after the shave.


----------



## tcmx3

there's a lot of great scents out there, especially from Barrister & Mann and Arianna & Evans, but by far, and I do mean BY FAR, the best selling soap I have ever used is Grooming Department's NYChypre.

personally B&M Reserve Lavender is a real winner IMO, both wrt performance and scent.

@inferno Id really strongly suggest something in the newest A&E base. I think you will find it a bit of an upgrade over the stuff you've listed.


----------



## inferno

gonna look into these.


----------



## YG420

Soaps are a whole nother rabbit hole


----------



## YG420

My fave is grooming dept and zingari man. Also love a&e, wholly kaw, ethos, saponificio varesino, murphy and mcneil, and mammoth. I was gona put a soap lot for sale on another shave forum but would consider putting it up on this forum if theres interest. You can also buy samples of soaps from maggards.


----------



## inferno

usually i try to go with the players that have been doing it the longest. i guess they know how its done.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> usually i try to go with the players that have been doing it the longest. i guess they know how its done.



in soaps frankly I think it's the opposite. they've gotten a lot better just in the last few years, and the old formulas are just not competitive with the stuff being released today. yes I've tried the old ones (Ive tried a LOT of stuff). 

JMO and YMMV


----------



## inferno

name your best brands. and varieties.


----------



## inferno

well well well, just tried out this baby, and what can i say. this was easily the best DE shave yet.

today i used the taylors/kent hybrid soap. astra sp blade.

this razor is very good. feels very safe during use. almost as safe as the feather. but this one digs a lot deeper, i'd say it digs as deep as the jaws but it causes a lot less irritation and you dont have to be really really careful with it. weighs in at 67g and that might explain it, i dont know.

this gave me a completely smooth shave, even under the jawline. and i could go over the problem areas until done without irritation (unlike the gamechangers). very smooth feeling during use. very good secure grip. the knurling is done correctly (no sharp pyramids).

only downside was under the nose. its a bulky head. i accidentally cut the underside of my nose trying to jam it in there. twice.. but i found a solution though.
just push side of the nose in with your finger, problem solved.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> well well well, just tried out this baby, and what can i say. this was easily the best DE shave yet.
> 
> today i used the taylors/kent hybrid soap. astra sp blade.
> 
> this razor is very good. feels very safe during use. almost as safe as the feather. but this one digs a lot deeper, i'd say it digs as deep as the jaws but it causes a lot less irritation and you dont have to be really really careful with it. weighs in at 67g and that might explain it, i dont know.
> 
> this gave me a completely smooth shave, even under the jawline. and i could go over the problem areas until done without irritation (unlike the gamechangers). very smooth feeling during use. very good secure grip. the knurling is done correctly (no sharp pyramids).
> 
> only downside was under the nose. its a bulky head. i accidentally cut the underside of my nose trying to jam it in there. twice.. but i found a solution though.
> just push side of the nose in with your finger, problem solved.
> 
> View attachment 126095
> 
> View attachment 126096
> 
> View attachment 126097
> 
> View attachment 126098
> 
> View attachment 126099



really nice. 

there are some razers that are as good as it, but none better, IMO. actually after we talked about it in this thread I pulled mine out and gave it a go. really like it, just need to be liberal with the soap lol.


----------



## inferno

i was very surprised how smooth it was and how i could whip it around. and the result was by far the best yet. 

i also like the design. machining an polishing is top notch. it also feels like a serious high performance tool. not heavy like stainless, and not too light and toy like feeling like alu. just the right weight imo. feels very solid.


----------



## inferno

so i tried the astra blade in the gc84 and while the shave was better than the gillette green 7 o clock stainless blade i still think the timeless is much better. it shaves closer, its faster without tearing your face up. less irritation. and i can get to the problem areas under my jawline with fewer passes. 

i did some head shaves lately and at first i tried the timeless. had about 10mm hair almost 2 weeks. and the timeless clogged bad. and you could not remove it with water only. had to resort to a brush. then i went to the feather. this one is impossible to clog. but still its very picky with the angle. very gentle and forgiving though. then i tried the gc84 SB and while this one is not as picky with the angle its still very suboptimal for the head. its really slow going.
and you miss a lot of places. 

so i guess my preferred shaver for the head is a blue3 tilting disposable or the mach 3. its just so much faster. i can do my head in like 2 minutes with one of those. gonna try the timeless in 1,5 days. when i dont have 2 weeks of hair on the dome. and see how it goes. 

also recieved a bunch of antique straights. and i will have to try these ones out too obviously.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> so i tried the astra blade in the gc84 and while the shave was better than the gillette green 7 o clock stainless blade i still think the timeless is much better. it shaves closer, its faster without tearing your face up. less irritation. and i can get to the problem areas under my jawline with fewer passes.
> 
> i did some head shaves lately and at first i tried the timeless. had about 10mm hair almost 2 weeks. and the timeless clogged bad. and you could not remove it with water only. had to resort to a brush. then i went to the feather. this one is impossible to clog. but still its very picky with the angle. very gentle and forgiving though. then i tried the gc84 SB and while this one is not as picky with the angle its still very suboptimal for the head. its really slow going.
> and you miss a lot of places.
> 
> so i guess my preferred shaver for the head is a blue3 tilting disposable or the mach 3. its just so much faster. i can do my head in like 2 minutes with one of those. gonna try the timeless in 1,5 days. when i dont have 2 weeks of hair on the dome. and see how it goes.
> 
> also recieved a bunch of antique straights. and i will have to try these ones out too obviously.



oof, astra are decidedly not my favorite in Timeless.

have you tried Personna med prep? My personal favorite by far, though I can tolerate the blue Gillettes if I must.


----------



## inferno

so far i have tried the: 

gillette 7 o clock green stainless. didn't like these.

astra sp. these are better.

yesterday i tried the personna blue super (is this the med prep?), these were quite smooth and good i think.
however i noticed that i didn't stay clean for very long.

today i tried wizamet super iridium, these were also quite good. smooth and nice. maybe the personnas were smoother.

next one to try is the perma-sharp super, gillette platinum, gillette 7 o clock sharp edge (yellow).

hopefully one of these will be a keeper. i have a feeling they will be very different in different razors.

------------------------

also want to try out the nacet stainless (everbody seems to love these), gillette silver blue (these too), personna platinum chrome (i guess these are the red personnas), astra superior stainless but i dont have any of them yet.


----------



## inferno

which blades have your guys tried and liked/not liked?


----------



## Rangen

DE shaving seems really complicated compared to straight razor shaving. So much mix n match. Maybe that's part of the fun.

I like, and use, a lot of different shave soaps, but if I had to use one brand of soap for the rest of my life, I think it would be Saponificio Varesino. Triple-milled, so it lasts a long time (worth taking into account when evaluating the cost). The scents are the classiest, and the most skilled at blending elements into a compelling whole, that I've encountered. Shave experience and post-shave are topnotch for me.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> which blades have your guys tried and liked/not liked?



personna med preps - my favs

gillette silver blue - acceptable back up

gillette black - not my favorite, they seem a bit less smooth than silver blue

gillette green - fine, nothing to write home about

astra - rough

derby - lol

kai - feel ok but I carve myself up when I use them

feather - fine in milder razers, but I tend to prefer aggressive razer less aggressive blade

pol silver - didnt like these, so Ive never ordered more than a sample


----------



## WPerry

inferno said:


> which blades have your guys tried and liked/not liked?



I think that blade preference/impressions can be wildly different based on the individual with differing razors, hair type and hair density, among other things. Honestly, I haven't come across any that I really hated, but my favorite so far have been GSB and Astra SP. Personna Platinum and Astra SS were pretty good, but a step below. I'll have to revisit Feather - the first couple shaves with them were great, but I felt like they started to bite/grab after that. 

If you haven't yet, just pick up a sampler pack. I got something like 20 varieties (5-10 blades each) off of Amazon for 12 bucks or so, free shipping.


----------



## demcav

inferno said:


> which blades have your guys tried and liked/not liked?


My favorite blades are Iridium Super. Smoothest for about 4 shaves.


----------



## inferno

i tried shaving with my personna super? its a US made personna. it might be the lab blue one.

either way third shave in the timeless 95. and this is good. feels very smooth and i can get a really close shave.

also ordered some new blades. a 50 pack of german personna platinum chromes. then small packs of: nacets, silver blues, rubies, voskhods, rapira platlux, german wilkinson swords and probably a few more i forgot. and then finally astra stainless in a 100 pack because these were cheap and many people seems to like them. 

funny thing is that the text on the astra 100pack is a bit confusing so the person who picked it sent me double, because at a quick glance you might think its a 50pack and not a 100. i also got double of another small pack. and you know what. i'm gonna keep them. i'm not gonna say anything. because i deserve it  and the place i buy these from makes very good coin on these anyway (a 100 pack of nacets is 50€ at this place) compared to amazon and ebay (market price), so its not like i'm gonna cry myself to sleep tonight for my somehow recently found low ethical and moral capabilities.

but this is also quite interesting. since now i have like 200 weeks of astra stainless. so these better be good!

--------------

anyway i found a guy who tested the sharpness of many DE blades with a bess tester. then i found a guy who compiled the results and made graphs out of them. lower is better. measured in grams to break the test wire. afaik it was tested in 6 places on each blade and then averaged. and then he did a head shave and a face shave and tested them again. then one more time.







the forums seems to be shrinking the pic too much so you can't see the text. so i just post the original pic link.

download it and open it on your computer!


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> i tried shaving with my personna super? its a US made personna. it might be the lab blue one.
> 
> either way third shave in the timeless 95. and this is good. feels very smooth and i can get a really close shave.
> 
> also ordered some new blades. a 50 pack of german personna platinum chromes. then small packs of: nacets, silver blues, rubies, voskhods, rapira platlux, german wilkinson swords and probably a few more i forgot. and then finally astra stainless in a 100 pack because these were cheap and many people seems to like them.
> 
> funny thing is that the text on the astra 100pack is a bit confusing so the person who picked it sent me double, because at a quick glance you might think its a 50pack and not a 100. i also got double of another small pack. and you know what. i'm gonna keep them. i'm not gonna say anything. because i deserve it  and the place i buy these from makes very good coin on these anyway (a 100 pack of nacets is 50€ at this place) compared to amazon and ebay (market price), so its not like i'm gonna cry myself to sleep tonight for my somehow recently found low ethical and moral capabilities.
> 
> but this is also quite interesting. since now i have like 200 weeks of astra stainless. so these better be good!
> 
> --------------
> 
> anyway i found a guy who tested the sharpness of many DE blades with a bess tester. then i found a guy who compiled the results and made graphs out of them. lower is better. measured in grams to break the test wire. afaik it was tested in 6 places on each blade and then averaged. and then he did a head shave and a face shave and tested them again. then one more time.
> 
> 
> View attachment 127953
> 
> 
> the forums seems to be shrinking the pic too much so you can't see the text. so i just post the original pic link.
> 
> download it and open it on your computer!




Ive seen that site and while I genuinely appreciate his work, Ive not found the ones he tested as the sharpest to be my personal favorites. 

for example, those BIC blades can suck it. JMO

glad youre enjoying your timeless. really top class razer.


----------



## inferno

tcmx3 said:


> Ive seen that site and while I genuinely appreciate his work, Ive not found the ones he tested as the sharpest to be my personal favorites.
> 
> for example, those BIC blades can suck it. JMO
> 
> glad youre enjoying your timeless. really top class razer.



yeah thats just the thing! the guy that made the graphs has a site called sharpologist or something similar and his opinion is that blades at 40g is what you want. 50g will be to dull and 30g will be too sharp and tear you up. 

and i have first hand experience with this. the 30g feather in the feather "r2d2" which is the mildest ever razor still tears you up. its just too sharp. not good.

but any other blade in the timeless is super good. and the timeless haves closer than the asd2 ever will. with pretty much all blades. but this time without the pain. 

but i think this guy "the sharpologist" is on to something. 40g on the bess is the ideal.


----------



## inferno

a few H ago i recieved a shipment of klar products. 

sport soap, klassik soap. klassik edt, frische edt. 

and to be honest when i first smelled the klassik soap it smelled nothing like the old klassik soap i have. way, way too weak.
BUT now after 1 lathering and a few hours out wet. its smells 100% the same as the old one. this is the one guys. nothing, and i mean nothing smells better than this. not in a soap anyway. very happy with this one.

the sport soap on the otherhand smells kinda weak. even after 1 use and being out wet. 

the klassik edt smells a bit like the soap but not enough for me. i mean i does smell kinda like the soap, but then again maybe not. smells good though. 
wanted more from this though.

frische edt. smellls very nice and fresh and summery. one of the best summer scents i've tried imo. nothing really special but 100% quality. unlike most **** today. recieved more than i thought i would get here.


----------



## Moooza

Let's have more razors. Iwasaki watetsu tamahagane kamisori:


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

@Moooza nice face/hair nakiri


----------



## Luftmensch

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> @Moooza nice face/hair nakiri
> 
> View attachment 129735




To be fair... it is really an usuba


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

Luftmensch said:


> To be fair... it is really an usuba


To be fair...usubas are just single bevel nakiris


----------



## inferno

didn't know they still made the tamahagane kamisoris. 
i'll have to attempt a shave with my swedish steel one soon.


----------



## Rangen

inferno said:


> didn't know they still made the tamahagane kamisoris.
> i'll have to attempt a shave with my swedish steel one soon.



As far as I know, Iwasaki no longer makes tamahagane kamisoris. One in the kind of shape that Mooza's is in is quite a special razor, and a rarity.


----------



## Luftmensch

Mizuochi-san is the only active Iwasaki blacksmith. Westerns haven't been produced for decades. Like knife making, parts of the production were outsourced. Their contact for polishing and scaling western razors retired in the 70's(?). Since then Iwasaki has only made Kamisoris. New kamisoris are in swedish steel. Who knows when tamahagane became scarce. I wouldnt be surprised if they had a small amount of tamahagane reserved for special projects... but you won't likely find them for sale!

For your viewing pleasure. Mizouchi-san at work:



Video of Mizouchi-san honing from @maxim:



Interview with Shigeyoshi Iwasaki from Springhammer (you can see shots of Mizouchi at work):


----------



## Moooza

What amazing timing - tamahagane razors from Iwasaki haven't been available for so long (decades), but Heiji just said on FB that he has a few for sale. I can't confirm, but looks like they were made recently.


----------



## inferno

hey guys i made some mods to my spare razor handles. i drilled holes in them! 
now these 2 weigh in at 52g and 53g. these were 85g or so before i drilled them out iirc.
i drilled a 8,0 or 8,5mm hole, and i reckon i can drill them out to 9 or even 9,5mm if i want to shave off a few more grams.
feel much better now. but i like it as it is right now.

also gave them a proper deburring and "polish" while i had them in the lathe. did a sandpaper p1200 finish. no sharp edges anymore anywhere.
and they look much better than the cheesy mirror polish from the factory. the look like precision stuff now.






i put the radio knob on the feather head and that now weighs in at 85g with blade and shims!
not exactly ti light ~60g, but not steel heavy ~100-120g either.

very maneuverable now. it wasn't bad before but its really good now.

the razorrock radio knob handle is my favorite steel handle. the timless Ti is pure porn but this is as good as it gets for me in steel at least.

here is my frankenrazor  asd2 head. 2 shims under the blade. lightened non feather handle. put an astra stainless blade in it and after the first stroke i understood that this was gonna be very, very good! and it was.


----------



## inferno

i got a new razor today. edwin jagger 3one6. i also made something today. 

i made my very own tradere-ish handle in 6al4v ti  there are no real measurements of this published anywhere except the main diameter. 11mm. so i had to improvise. turned out so so. but i had to improvise a bit more than i would have liked. i made it really really light. 23gram. drilled it out. 3one6 head and the hollow ti tradere-ish handle is 52 gram. lol. 

think i'm gonna do a 12mm main version instead. and maybe go for more grip with the knurling.

also 6al4v ti is a ***** to press knurl! and thread. this has got to be the worst material in existence to press knurl. lol. and i'm not gonna cut-knurl them in.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> i got a new razor today. edwin jagger 3one6. i also made something today.
> 
> i made my very own tradere-ish handle in 6al4v ti  there are no real measurements of this published anywhere except the main diameter. 11mm. so i had to improvise. turned out so so. but i had to improvise a bit more than i would have liked. i made it really really light. 23gram. drilled it out. 3one6 head and the hollow ti tradere-ish handle is 52 gram. lol.
> 
> think i'm gonna do a 12mm main version instead. and maybe go for more grip with the knurling.
> 
> also 6al4v ti is a ***** to press knurl! and thread. this has got to be the worst material in existence to press knurl. lol. and i'm not gonna cut-knurl them in.
> 
> View attachment 131737
> 
> 
> View attachment 131738
> 
> 
> View attachment 131739



if you like the Tradere handle, Blackland is manufacturing them now. at ~250, Im very tempted by the solid bar version


----------



## inferno

i dont think they are ever in stock. 

i think i'm gonna do a true replica next then maybe my own take on it. all in ti.


----------



## inferno

this was basically a trial run of the lathe and the tools. just needed to check i had everything i needed to actually make a handle like this.


----------



## inferno

the knurling on this one is mostly cosmetic. just like the real one.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> i dont think they are ever in stock.
> 
> i think i'm gonna do a true replica next then maybe my own take on it. all in ti.



sadly in razers very few of the things you want are in stock.

it took me ages to find some of mine. 

I would hazard the Tradere is worth it though, just because of how great Blackland's razers are. In the end you can always just get a blackbird, which is itself a fantastic shaving instrument


----------



## Dominick Maone

Moooza said:


> Let's have more razors. Iwasaki watetsu tamahagane kamisori:
> 
> View attachment 129732
> View attachment 129733
> 
> View attachment 129734


How tall is that thing? I am going to make a couple.


----------



## SolidSnake03

tcmx3 said:


> sadly in razers very few of the things you want are in stock.
> 
> it took me ages to find some of mine.
> 
> I would hazard the Tradere is worth it though, just because of how great Blackland's razers are. In the end you can always just get a blackbird, which is itself a fantastic shaving instrument



Have to agree on this. After trying some stupid amount of DE and SE razors the one to eventually get me to settle down/be done searching was the Blackland Blackbird. It’s outstanding.


----------



## inferno

just wanted to inform your guys about the edwin jagger 3one6 or 316 razor. its really good. it shaves ultra close withiout any need for takeups. 

i dont know if its better than the timeless open comb 0,95mm. i think the jagger is better. yeah go jagger . at least its as good as its gonna get as a safety bar razor. but who really knows.


----------



## zizirex

Got a new Straight razor.




Wacker 7/8 Blonde Buffalo Horn.
As usual it doesn’t come shave ready. Set the bevel with Morihei 9K and finish on Ozuku super hard and now it’s popping hair.


----------



## Dominick Maone

Failed at making two kamisoris. First one I ground too thin before heat treating. Edge warped like crazy. Second heat treat was good, even has hamon. Ground it with too big of a wheel and it ground through the middle of the blade. Was about 1 cm wider before I ground through. Cut off the ruined part. Now I can’t get it to shave, feels sharp, but won’t cut hair. I think the heat treat is ruined.


----------



## Dominick Maone

Dominick Maone said:


> Failed at making two kamisoris. First one I ground too thin before heat treating. Edge warped like crazy. Second heat treat was good, even has hamon. Ground it with too big of a wheel and it ground through the middle of the blade. Was about 1 cm wider before I ground through. Cut off the ruined part. Now I can’t get it to shave, feels sharp, but won’t cut hair. I think the heat treat is ruined. View attachment 133002
> View attachment 133003
> View attachment 133004
> View attachment 133005
> View attachment 133006
> View attachment 133007


I got it to shave. Planned to shave off the beard but my girl said no way. First time shaving with anything besides a 3+ blade razor. I like how I can shave off one hair at a time and get a really straight line. I do not like having a razor that close to my eye. 




Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## inferno

i made something at work! and at home.

so basically we have these triangular roller bearings getting trown out every day. premium 52100 matarial. so i decieded i would take care of that problem. 

so basically i ended up with about 25kilos of these bearing races. now 52100 is on the very edge of my HT-ing capability since its requites a short spak. and i'm working with basically uninsulated propane from a weed burner type of setup. 

usually i work with a 45kW setup. but this time i decieded to go with a 6,6kW burner. at 2 bar input pressure (i have a regulator).
and it worked out very good imo. it just a a bit longer time. with the 45kW burner i can get a knife up to heat in about 1-2 minutes. but with this one it takes about 5 minutes. thats not necessarily a bad thing. at least not with 52100. its needs a soak time. for the cr to distribute properly. 

my process for these 2 bnlades were. flattening the bearing with acetylene to bright yellow. then bright yellow again and bang em straight. 

then i tried just hardening them at above 2 shades brighter than magnetic. warm oil. grain size was very coarse. unusable. 
and it also warped like crazy in the quench.

then i tried flattening the bearings and then when flat i did 2 heats to bright yellow (close to melting) to zero out the tensions of the steel. 
then 4 cycles up to just above unmagnetic. and then let cool in unforced air. in a vise. 4 times. after that the grain size is so small i cant even see any grain size at all. its just dull gray at the crack. and a file skids like on glass. now were talking. i nailed it. 

then i made these 2. 

the kamisori is 110g or so and the iwasaki is 40g. just saying. mine is 8mm at the spine. ground on an 8 inch wheel asfter hardening. this equates to an edge angle of 18-19deg. the blades are 24 wide. i ground these on a 60 grit cubiton belts. at out 2x72 inch workshop grinder. took about 15 minutes each. 

everything is 100% freehand. there are no fixtures for me to use. and the belt is moving 30m/s. so i'm pretty hbappy with the results. 
then i put a buffing wheel on a drilling machine. and it basically just tries do mirror polish everything. i'm going for a fine ground finish on these. so these will be finished on a 240 grit flap drum. its almost mirror but not really. 

my diy razors are not finished yet. but soon. very soon they will be. 
have to decide on a finishing finish kinda. have to try out some different things. but theyr'e not gonna be mirror polished i can tell you that. it just looks too tacky. 

the kamisori feels very very good in my hands. very good grip and weight and stiffness.


----------



## inferno

when i try to edit out all the spelling errors in the above post everything just turns white. 

just so you know. 

live with it. just like i do.


----------



## tcmx3

nice looking work @inferno 

also trying two new soap bases out; A&E Kaizen and B&M's newest one.

a word of advice if youre coming from old style soaps and buying stuff made in 2021; this stuff holds an UNREAL amount of water. and you dont even have to be particularly careful to keep the emulsion you can kind of hamfist it with these two. just awesome performance.


----------



## EricEricEric

Where do you guys buy these from, I would like to try a Japanese one  

A little intimidated but I have the stones so why not


----------



## inferno

tcmx3 said:


> nice looking work @inferno
> 
> also trying two new soap bases out; A&E Kaizen and B&M's newest one.
> 
> a word of advice if youre coming from old style soaps and buying stuff made in 2021; this stuff holds an UNREAL amount of water. and you dont even have to be particularly careful to keep the emulsion
> you can kind of hamfist it with these two. just awesome performance.



lately i've been SR shaving with the tabac soap. smels good. can hold quite a lot water so it slides good. and also the 50/50 soap i made above. 

but also my klar klassik. the klassik smells so fukn good its intoxicating. but ifeel its drying out too soon. and i need time since i'm just starting again with my SR shaving. i'm gonna try mixing in more and more water with the klar klassik. i have 2021 production and 2008. to compare. they smalle just as good and strong both of them i can tell you. this is by far the best smelling soap i have. its easily rivals my best scents/edT/edP/perfumes. and i have about 50-60 of them. 

right now i'm just happy i can do a really good first pass with the SR's. and a so so second.


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> lately i've been SR shaving with the tabac soap. smels good. can hold quite a lot water so it slides good. and also the 50/50 soap i made above.
> 
> but also my klar klassik. the klassik smells so fukn good its intoxicating. but ifeel its drying out too soon. and i need time since i'm just starting again with my SR shaving. i'm gonna try mixing in more and more water with the klar klassik. i have 2021 production and 2008. to compare. they smalle just as good and strong both of them i can tell you. this is by far the best smelling soap i have. its easily rivals my best scents/edT/edP/perfumes. and i have about 50-60 of them.
> 
> right now i'm just happy i can do a really good first pass with the SR's. and a so so second.



interesting, it's listed as a lemony scent. I may acquire some and see what it's about.

my personal favorites are NYC Chypre from Grooming Department and Barrister & Man's Reserve Lavender, which is so good I have bought pretty much every product B&M makes in that scent.

not sure Ive found a soap that can run with MFK Oud Satin Mood though.


----------



## inferno

EricEricEric said:


> Where do you guys buy these from, I would like to try a Japanese one
> 
> A little intimidated but I have the stones so why not



i got my iwasaki kamisori from aframestoky. IWASAKI 45mm Swedish Steel Blade in a Paulownia Wooden Box [out of stock]

tamahagane has not been made for like 10 years so dont fall for this. 

whats available is the swedish steel ones. these are in production. its most likely uddeholms version of 1095. going price is about 250-300bux.


----------



## inferno

tcmx3 said:


> interesting, it's listed as a lemony scent. I may acquire some and see what it's about.
> 
> my personal favorites are NYC Chypre from Grooming Department and Barrister & Man's Reserve Lavender, which is so good I have bought pretty much every product B&M makes in that scent.
> 
> not sure Ive found a soap that can run with MFK Oud Satin Mood though.



i've been looking into sterling and GD (cant get these here without importing, and its a fukn hassle now with the covid.) and A & E. and also everything these guys carry.








Shaving Soaps







en.nordicshaving.com





i have ordered from them before and its next day shipping to me!

thinking about cannbliss santal and








Ariana & Evans Cannabliss Santal Shaving Soap 118 ml


Ariana & Evans Cannabliss Santal Shaving Soap This shaving soap is bringing to mind lazy afternoons listening to music and the lingering smokiness of cannabis. Cannabliss Santal shaving soap balances rich, spicy and herbaceous aromas with a soft, floral and rum note. There is an unmistakable...




en.nordicshaving.com





and this absith one. (i have gotten wasted on absinthe and it works. dont remeber jack **** from that night)








Extrò Absinthium Artemisia Shaving Soap 150 ml


Gorgeous, green Extrò Absinthium Artemisia traditional Italian shaving soap made from 100% herbal ingredients. Contains jojoba oil.




en.nordicshaving.com





they also have zingari man.

also leaning towards these 2.









Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements Astra Planeta Shaving Soap 140 g


Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements parranajosaippualla saat todella nautinnollisen parranajokokemuksen. Hyvin vaahtoutuva ja ihoa suojaava, laadukas parranajosaippua!




en.nordicshaving.com













Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements Future Fiction Shaving Soap 140 g


Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements parranajosaippualla saat todella nautinnollisen parranajokokemuksen. Hyvin vaahtoutuva ja ihoa suojaava, laadukas parranajosaippua!




en.nordicshaving.com


----------



## Rangen

inferno said:


> tamahagane has not been made for like 10 years so dont fall for this.



Apparently...not. I have every reason to believe that I have a recent production Iwasaki tamahagane, purchased through Heiji.


----------



## inferno

hehe i just remembered. when i got the new 2021 klar soaps i actually wrote the retailer and complained. they didn't smell anything at all!
the klar sport had basically 0 smell ootb. and the klassik only very minor.

and i was pissed because of this. 

but after 2-3 uses they smell just as much if not more than my old 2008 stock. smell exactly the same too. so you basically need to penetrate some skin with them. then they open up. just so you know, if you are getting a klar. i recommend the klassik. the sport is basically just a milder smelling klassik.


----------



## inferno

Rangen said:


> Apparently...not. I have every reason to believe that I have a recent production Iwasaki tamahagane, purchased through Heiji.



u sure? i'm not at all sure. just so you know. but i have read in several places that the tamahagane ones has not been in production for several years, maybe 10. but yeah i'm not really read into iwasakis. i just have 1 iwasaki. that i haven't shaved with for many years : )


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> i've been looking into sterling and GD (cant get these here without importing, and its a fukn hassle now with the covid.) and A & E. and also everything these guys carry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shaving Soaps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.nordicshaving.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i have ordered from them before and its next day shipping to me!
> 
> thinking about cannbliss santal and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ariana & Evans Cannabliss Santal Shaving Soap 118 ml
> 
> 
> Ariana & Evans Cannabliss Santal Shaving Soap This shaving soap is bringing to mind lazy afternoons listening to music and the lingering smokiness of cannabis. Cannabliss Santal shaving soap balances rich, spicy and herbaceous aromas with a soft, floral and rum note. There is an unmistakable...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.nordicshaving.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this absith one. (i have gotten wasted on absinthe and it works. dont remeber jack **** from that night)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extrò Absinthium Artemisia Shaving Soap 150 ml
> 
> 
> Gorgeous, green Extrò Absinthium Artemisia traditional Italian shaving soap made from 100% herbal ingredients. Contains jojoba oil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.nordicshaving.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they also have zingari man.
> 
> also leaning towards these 2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements Astra Planeta Shaving Soap 140 g
> 
> 
> Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements parranajosaippualla saat todella nautinnollisen parranajokokemuksen. Hyvin vaahtoutuva ja ihoa suojaava, laadukas parranajosaippua!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.nordicshaving.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements Future Fiction Shaving Soap 140 g
> 
> 
> Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements parranajosaippualla saat todella nautinnollisen parranajokokemuksen. Hyvin vaahtoutuva ja ihoa suojaava, laadukas parranajosaippua!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.nordicshaving.com



there's a lot of great soaps, but IMO none are actually better than A&E. as good as anything out there, and better than most.


----------



## inferno

tcmx3 said:


> there's a lot of great soaps, but IMO none are actually better than A&E. as good as anything out there, and better than most.



i see i see. 

yeah next saop will be one of these then.


----------



## inferno

i have bought some razor lots lately. 

i'm trying to restore these to at least presentable condition. they should be fairly shiny.
with the big wade and butcher its simply not gonna happen. the pitting is so deep i'll have to remove all of the blade etching too. 
and its even worse where the brand stamping is. but its only etched here. to boot.

well, i think i have found some gems here. that no one else was willing to dig into. 

both of the frederick reynolds razors. for instance. looks good superficially but in reality its rrally really much work. 
one of them was completely black with very deep pitting. but hey i got a bosch drill to speed things up. **** hand sanding. 

i have noticed that almost all old 1800eds razors are finish ground on about an 75-80mm wheel, except for the wedges and those seems to be 10 inch/250mm.

i have invested in felt wheels of 80 and 75mm and then sandpaper 3m cubitron purple ones. 120 grit. DONT EVER GO below 100 grit. you will never ever get the scratches out. EVER!!!!!

start at 120.

my method of restoring these is:

brass wire brush in the bosch drill.
oxalic acid 10 minutes.
brass wire brush again. 
oxalic acid again
cubitron sandpaper 120 grit
70mm radial lammelae sandpaper round thing. to correct the grind. 120 grit.
70mm radial lammelae sandpaper round thing. 240 grit.

then i move onto the 80 mm felt wheel, i use "coarse" paste, well its a ****ing hard bar.

then i have manually polished some of them with flitz. (gray one). but this **** must be for a lot better finished **** than this lol. yeah it will be my last finish but for now i think i'm gonna load up a felt wheel with fine paste. never tried it though.


below we have 
r.h and sons
fred fenney
wade and butcher
wade and butcher
c. crookes
worth, b. worth and sons. 
frederick reynolds

these are smaller razos maybe avaraging at 5/8 or so. 
these are maybe 50% done.


----------



## inferno

and those 4 you see above are my premium ones. the text shows up a bit bad in the pics but its the exposure of the cam.
do i want to show you the razors or the text? i can't have both it seems. 
yeah they look better in reality. except for no3 down wade and butcher. it looks like **** and its so pitted i'd rather suck an elephants dick.
the pitting is so deep. never gonna be really pretty ever again. but the text is actually not half gone in reality. its 100% there. 
this one isa actually 100% done. no more work will be done to it. its just gonna wear its battle scars with pride. and as a plus. i don't have to baby it.
yeah i'm saving the ****** stuff for myself. lol.

these are between 7/8 and 6/8, they look bigger but they are not. no2 reynolds is the biggest.

wade and butcher for barbers use
frederich reynolds
wade and butcher "medium size hollow ground" (it shows us better in reality)
frederick reynolds 

I REALLY LIKE these humpbacks like the lowset reynolds. its so ****ing awesome this is just pure manufacturing ****ing porn!!

i have won a george wostenholm razor of the same design on ebay. 
and i think i'm gonna gwet another wade and butcher of the same style. 

then i'll be set for life  
or maybe not.


----------



## inferno

thisa is for the above post  i'm drunk. to ease the pain.

--------------------------------------------

buuut....
i dont know if anyone of you can help me out here. 

i seem to have have accumulated this smaller tapered frederick fenney.
frederick fenney used the "tally ho" with running fox imprint for the last years of his life. probably at last 15-30 years.
then bingham bought the tally ho tademark.
he started making razors in 1822, and died in 1852,

but this one just says:

fred*
fenney
*
do you think its real?*

this must be 1830-1840ies or so, if its not faked.
any guesses are welcome here.

apparantly the the "tally ho" trademark was granted in 1833.

i paste what i found on badger and blade


_*PapaFish
*_
*Nice razor!
It likely said "Frederick Fenney Sheffield"
Check out this link. I was wrong, Tally Ho was granted in 1833. See POST #5 of this Tally Ho thread at SRP.
"Frederick Fenney was apprenticed to a razor maker in 1813, became a razor maker in his own right in 1822 and was granted the 'Tally-Ho' mark in 1833. He died on 25th of March 1852. A 'gentleman and merchant' called Charles Thomas Bingham bought the famous mark and razors continued to be manufactured with 'C. T. Bingham late F. Fenney' stamped on them. Bingham sold the Tally-Ho works in 1863, and George Wostenholm bought the rights to the famous mark."
So your razor is potentially dated between 1822 and 1833. That is if the Tally Ho mark is not warn off. I had found that information back when I was looking for historical context to my Iowa Hawk Eye Razor, a C.T. Bingham, Late F. Fenney. Yours seems to have a much more truncated tail than mine, indicating it is likely older. It also appears to have original horn scales, I'm jealous! I am replacing the scales on mine (they weren't original and really didn't fit the razor). Keep it all original, give it a good polish, and hone it up, you have a real nice one there! BTW, your barber's notch is not unfounded, mine has one too.*


----------



## inferno

here is my humpback fred reynolds saying hi while chilling out next to my beers  its so happy. can you tell?
its been in a shithole filled with ****, and holes, for at least 100 years and now finally someone shows it some love.
the love that it deserves.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> View attachment 140798
> 
> 
> thisa is for the above post  i'm drunk. to ease the pain.
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> 
> buuut....
> i dont know if anyone of you can help me out here.
> 
> i seem to have have accumulated this smaller tapered frederick fenney.
> frederick fenney used the "tally ho" with running fox imprint for the last years of his life. probably at last 15-30 years.
> then bingham bought the tally ho tademark.
> he started making razors in 1822, and died in 1852,
> 
> but this one just says:
> 
> fred*
> fenney
> 
> *do you think its real?*
> 
> this must be 1830-1840ies or so, if its not faked.
> any guesses are welcome here.
> 
> apparantly the the "tally ho" trademark was granted in 1833.
> 
> i paste what i found on badger and blade
> 
> 
> _*PapaFish*_
> 
> *Nice razor!
> It likely said "Frederick Fenney Sheffield"
> Check out this link. I was wrong, Tally Ho was granted in 1833. See POST #5 of this Tally Ho thread at SRP.
> "Frederick Fenney was apprenticed to a razor maker in 1813, became a razor maker in his own right in 1822 and was granted the 'Tally-Ho' mark in 1833. He died on 25th of March 1852. A 'gentleman and merchant' called Charles Thomas Bingham bought the famous mark and razors continued to be manufactured with 'C. T. Bingham late F. Fenney' stamped on them. Bingham sold the Tally-Ho works in 1863, and George Wostenholm bought the rights to the famous mark."
> So your razor is potentially dated between 1822 and 1833. That is if the Tally Ho mark is not warn off. I had found that information back when I was looking for historical context to my Iowa Hawk Eye Razor, a C.T. Bingham, Late F. Fenney. Yours seems to have a much more truncated tail than mine, indicating it is likely older. It also appears to have original horn scales, I'm jealous! I am replacing the scales on mine (they weren't original and really didn't fit the razor). Keep it all original, give it a good polish, and hone it up, you have a real nice one there! BTW, your barber's notch is not unfounded, mine has one too.*
> 
> View attachment 140799
> 
> View attachment 140800


I don't think it's a fake. My book says 1824-1846 for Fenney. I would say early 1830s is a good bet. It probably wasn't originally that hollow. Looks like it was probably period reground a couple of times. But by someone who knew what they were doing. In pretty good shape for close to a hundred years old. Nice find.


----------



## inferno

the feney had the best finish of them all, i'd say it was ground on a 3-4 inch wheel. 

i really like it. i think this is my most premium razor. because as far as i know this is the most bad ass of them all. 
(i really like the lauterjungs too) premium qual no **** stringer.


----------



## inferno

they probably didn't have any way to even grind this hollow in the early 1800ies right?


----------



## inferno

stringer said:


> I don't think it's a fake. My book says 1824-1846 for Fenney. I would say early 1830s is a good bet. It probably wasn't originally that hollow. Looks like it was probably period reground a couple of times. But by someone who knew what they were doing. In pretty good shape for close to a hundred years old. Nice find.



stringer can you elaborate more on the regrindiing that might have happened. its seems very very plausible to me that you are right. since most razors of this time period are "antique" style.


----------



## inferno

anyway i'm glad i have it. i think its my most exotic one so far. asnd i', nevber gona sell it. and knew that asd soon as i saw it. never gonn a happen. its too unique. with the sloping grind and all.


----------



## inferno




----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> stringer can you elaborate more on the regrindiing that might have happened. its seems very very plausible to me that you are right. since most razors of this time period are "antique" style.



It's hard to say, now that I look closer it appears to be a normal double shoulder. But when I first glanced I saw some scratch marks that I thought might indicate a regrind. But that could be from you cleaning it up. It's impossible to say anyway. But back in the straight razor heyday there were regrinding services that would take an 1830s wedge and make it more hollow and better than new. I'll put up some example pics when I get a chance.


----------



## inferno

for this particular one i've only buffed it to get rid of the pitting on the spine and the rust on the blade side.


----------



## inferno

and i will buff it more 

but not much more. i want to keep the character that it has. i'm not into destroying nice things.


----------



## stringer

Ok @inferno here's some pics. 

I suspect that these razors looked very similar out of the factory. But at some point a long time ago someone reground the bottom one to make it more hollow. But it's hard to say because older double shoulders were less uniform and more ragged than later ones.







But here's some others in my collection that I suspect started their lives much wedgier and were thinned down after a considerable amount of use.






Here's some more typical looking double shoulder grinds from the same time period for reference


----------



## Rangen

stringer said:


> But here's some others in my collection that I suspect started their lives much wedgier and were thinned down after a considerable amount of use.
> 
> View attachment 140934



Is that bottom one as heel-tall and toe-short as it looks in the pic? What are your plans for that one? I ask because I've had some odd-shaped razors come my way, and I always vacillate between aggressive reshaping and craven accommodation to the shape.


----------



## Grayswandir

What compound are you using on your buffer that gets rid of deep pitting? The only compound I'm familiar with that will get rid of some minor pitting is Formax Satin Glo.


----------



## Grayswandir

stringer said:


> Ok @inferno here's some pics.
> 
> I suspect that these razors looked very similar out of the factory. But at some point a long time ago someone reground the bottom one to make it more hollow. But it's hard to say because older double shoulders were less uniform and more ragged than later ones.
> 
> View attachment 140933
> 
> 
> 
> But here's some others in my collection that I suspect started their lives much wedgier and were thinned down after a considerable amount of use.
> 
> View attachment 140934
> 
> 
> Here's some more typical looking double shoulder grinds from the same time period for referenceView attachment 140935


I've got a few W&B razors that are hollow ground, some that are probably 1870-1891, but others that look like regrinds.


----------



## stringer

Rangen said:


> Is that bottom one as heel-tall and toe-short as it looks in the pic? What are your plans for that one? I ask because I've had some odd-shaped razors come my way, and I always vacillate between aggressive reshaping and craven accommodation to the shape.



Yeah. It's probably originally a +1" full wedge "For Barber's Use". I got it really cheap because it's obviously been used to hell. I will try and hone it the way it is eventually. I don't do too much cleanup. Just get them functional. Knock off active rust. Hone a bevel. But I have several in the To-Do pile and it takes much less time to bid on more project auctions than it does to actually complete the projects once they are in your hands.


----------



## Grayswandir

stringer said:


> Yeah. It's probably originally a +1" full wedge "For Barber's Use". I got it really cheap because it's obviously been used to hell. I will try and hone it the way it is eventually. I don't do too much cleanup. Just get them functional. Knock off active rust. Hone a bevel. But I have several in the To-Do pile and it takes much less time to bid on more project auctions than it does to actually complete the projects once they are in your hands.



I have a really nice 17/16" W&B For Barbers Use, the one with the etching on the blade, not the one with "For Barbers Use" on the tang.


----------



## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> What compound are you using on your buffer that gets rid of deep pitting? The only compound I'm familiar with that will get rid of some minor pitting is Formax Satin Glo.



I don't have a buffer and I don't worry about pitting. I just hand sand any active rust. Hone a bevel. Rescale if necessary. But I buy way more than I'll ever get to cleaning up. I don't mean to. But I bid on ebay and then they keep sending them to me.


----------



## Grayswandir

stringer said:


> I don't have a buffer and I don't worry about pitting. I just hand sand any active rust. Hone a bevel. Rescale if necessary. But I buy way more than I'll ever get to cleaning up. I don't mean to. But I bid on ebay and then they keep sending them to me.



I was asking Inferno, but I must have accidentally responded to one of your posts, sorry about that! I have the same problem, I keep buying razors and can't seem to stop. My intentions are different then yours, as I restore and sell vintage straights, but I still keep a few for myself. I'll be opening up an ebay store soon. I have enough razors to restore to last me over a year easy. I just acquired an amazing W.Greaves, it's very nice.


----------



## stringer

Here's one more I thought of that could be a regrind.


----------



## Grayswandir

That does look like a regrind.


----------



## Rangen

Buying eBay razors is a great way to learn new skills. I have to think of it like that, else I'd tear my hair out. I'm grinding away a stabilizer, because there is no way for this razor to have a proper heel otherwise. I suck at power tools (OK, a Dremel, the caramel macchiato of power tools), but I'm doing it anyway.


----------



## inferno

i just recieved a thomas turner "everlasting". its a wedge. maybe 5/8. has some work to do.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> i just recieved a thomas turner "everlasting". its a wedge. maybe 5/8. has some work to do.
> View attachment 141906
> 
> 
> View attachment 141907



I have a couple of these in ivory


----------



## inferno

apparantly there are 2 thomas turner. there is thomas turner and co. and then just thomas turner. thomas turner and co operated for about 150 years or so. thomas turner "everlasting" for about 20 years. 

i like mine. its in much much better shape than the rest of my restore razors. think i'm gonna temper it in the oven at 180C to make sure its atleast temperered once. but i have a few more incoming and i will temper them all at the same time.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> apparantly there are 2 thomas turner. there is thomas turner and co. and then just thomas turner. thomas turner and co operated for about 150 years or so. thomas turner "everlasting" for about 20 years.
> 
> i like mine. its in much much better shape than the rest of my restore razors. think i'm gonna temper it in the oven at 180C to make sure its atleast temperered once. but i have a few more incoming and i will temper them all at the same time.



I have an everlasting in ivory. I'll post a pic later. It's not in great shape. But it's cool as hell


----------



## Grayswandir

inferno said:


> i just recieved a thomas turner "everlasting". its a wedge. maybe 5/8. has some work to do.
> View attachment 141906
> 
> 
> View attachment 141907


that's a nice little razor. I just bought an A.H. Hewitt a week or so ago. It was a good score for cheap ($11). How much did you pay for your razor?


----------



## stringer

Alright. Not entirely sure about this one. Strongly suspect ivory. Could be bone. Definitely Thomas Turner Everlasting. But in worse shape than yours.














Here is a shot compared to a synthetic ivory and some bone scales.





Here's the grind. 




Tough to say on this one. The little pores indicate bone. Everything else says ivory.

Here's some more obvious ivory.





You can tell with the yellow bits in there. There's a name for that I can't recall at the moment.


----------



## inferno

Grayswandir said:


> that's a nice little razor. I just bought an A.H. Hewitt a week or so ago. It was a good score for cheap ($11). How much did you pay for your razor?



i think 25£


----------



## inferno

stringer said:


> Ok @inferno here's some pics.
> 
> I suspect that these razors looked very similar out of the factory. But at some point a long time ago someone reground the bottom one to make it more hollow. But it's hard to say because older double shoulders were less uniform and more ragged than later ones.
> 
> View attachment 140933
> 
> 
> 
> But here's some others in my collection that I suspect started their lives much wedgier and were thinned down after a considerable amount of use.
> 
> View attachment 140934
> 
> 
> Here's some more typical looking double shoulder grinds from the same time period for referenceView attachment 140935



this a nice collection you got going there!


----------



## inferno

Grayswandir said:


> What compound are you using on your buffer that gets rid of deep pitting? The only compound I'm familiar with that will get rid of some minor pitting is Formax Satin Glo.



i'm usin "pferd" green/coarse compound/brick. this works very fast but its not angle grinder fast or belt grinder fast. 

but you also have to understand what the hard felt wheels does. the way you are supposed to use the felt wheels is with high pressure. and the high pressure will create a high temperature. maybe even up to superplastic temp. and this will basically smear the metal out. and also completely ruin the temper in the steel. i use much lower pressure. and much lower rpm. rememeber doubling the rpm will increase temps 4x. i do all my buffing with a bosch drill. with adjusable rpm. and usually its below 1500 or so. 

but if i push it even at that rpm. i will be able to smear the steel. and this is of course very bad for the edge. but for the rest of the blade. its a non issue.

so try looking for some coarse buffing compound. it really speeds things up.


----------



## inferno

i might have aquired some new razors. 

george wostenholm humpback 7/8 (awesome)
wostenholm 6/8
joseph rodgers 5/8 (post 1893)
joseph rodgers 7/8 (post 1893)
bingham/late fenney, tally ho 7/8
john wigfall and co "bona fide" almost 6/8


----------



## Grayswandir

I really like that Tally Ho. I just picked one up that was double-stamped, a bit of a unique piece. I love Wostenholm razors, I have a Big George in my barbers roll waiting for restoration. I also like the Rogers (I like them all to be honest).

I don't know if you can get Satin Glo in your neck of the woods or not, but it's good compound. You can get it in a variety of different grits, from 60 all the way up to 600 grit I believe. It works well on a sisal wheel (buffer).

I'd be happy to take that Tally Ho off your hands. Throw in thge 7/8" Rogers as well!


----------



## inferno

stringer said:


> Alright. Not entirely sure about this one. Strongly suspect ivory. Could be bone. Definitely Thomas Turner Everlasting. But in worse shape than yours.
> 
> View attachment 141943
> 
> View attachment 141944
> 
> View attachment 141942
> 
> Here is a shot compared to a synthetic ivory and some bone scales.
> View attachment 141941
> 
> 
> Here's the grind. View attachment 141942
> 
> 
> Tough to say on this one. The little pores indicate bone. Everything else says ivory.
> 
> Here's some more obvious ivory.
> 
> View attachment 141945
> 
> You can tell with the yellow bits in there. There's a name for that I can't recall at the moment.



i've read ivory was usually pinned collarless.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> i've read ivory was usually pinned collarless.


Usually, but I've seen exceptions both ways. And it gets complicated because people will swap scales out and then put collars. Or repair chipped scales and add collars to hold the repair together better. Or they will make bone scales without collars so people will think it's ivory.


----------



## inferno

Grayswandir said:


> I really like that Tally Ho. I just picked one up that was double-stamped, a bit of a unique piece. I love Wostenholm razors, I have a Big George in my barbers roll waiting for restoration. I also like the Rogers (I like them all to be honest).
> 
> I don't know if you can get Satin Glo in your neck of the woods or not, but it's good compound. You can get it in a variety of different grits, from 60 all the way up to 600 grit I believe. It works well on a sisal wheel (buffer).
> 
> I'd be happy to take that Tally Ho off your hands. Throw in thge 7/8" Rogers as well!



do you have pics of that double stamped one?

i like the pferd paste. i have coarse and fine. and then some low budget ones from the hardware store. 

i just got the tally ho. did some hand sanding on it just now with 240 paper. its gonna need some work but i think i will clean up nicely. you collect tally hos?


----------



## inferno

stringer said:


> Usually, but I've seen exceptions both ways. And it gets complicated because people will swap scales out and then put collars. Or repair chipped scales and add collars to hold the repair together better. Or they will make bone scales without collars so people will think it's ivory.



yes of course. and who knows what has happened in the last 100 years.

i think i will do most of my restores collarless. i found some brass nails in 2,0 and 1,6mm, and then half of the work is done.


----------



## Grayswandir

inferno said:


> do you have pics of that double stamped one?
> 
> i like the pferd paste. i have coarse and fine. and then some low budget ones from the hardware store.
> 
> i just got the tally ho. did some hand sanding on it just now with 240 paper. its gonna need some work but i think i will clean up nicely. you collect tally hos?



I'll take some pics of it tomorrow. It's arriving in the post on Saturday.

I've never heard of the paste you're using, but I think I found an American equivalent, though it's more of a grease I think.


----------



## memorael

So I have a problem, I currently own a puma straight that shaves like a beauty but looks like hell. I also own a bismarck with bone handle that shaves ok... not very comfortable if you ask me though, I tried jnats, coticules and naniwa 10k stones and nothing. Stropped on cromox and no cromox and shave is still harsher than I like, the puma is like a freakin squeegee, so my question here is, what new brand would you guys recommend?


----------



## inferno

Grayswandir said:


> I'll take some pics of it tomorrow. It's arriving in the post on Saturday.
> 
> I've never heard of the paste you're using, but I think I found an American equivalent, though it's more of a grease I think.



at room temp is hard as a rock.


----------



## stringer

memorael said:


> So I have a problem, I currently own a puma straight that shaves like a beauty but looks like hell. I also own a bismarck with bone handle that shaves ok... not very comfortable if you ask me though, I tried jnats, coticules and naniwa 10k stones and nothing. Stropped on cromox and no cromox and shave is still harsher than I like, the puma is like a freakin squeegee, so my question here is, what new brand would you guys recommend?





I like turn of the century Americans and Germans full hollow 6/8".


----------



## inferno

memorael said:


> So I have a problem, I currently own a puma straight that shaves like a beauty but looks like hell. I also own a bismarck with bone handle that shaves ok... not very comfortable if you ask me though, I tried jnats, coticules and naniwa 10k stones and nothing. Stropped on cromox and no cromox and shave is still harsher than I like, the puma is like a freakin squeegee, so my question here is, what new brand would you guys recommend?



post pics? to make it look nice you might need sandpaper/scotchbrite/steel wool/polishing pastes/metal polish like flitz or similar.

all those stones might be too low grit for you. naniwa 12k should get the job done imo. also look into diamond spray/paste on canvas/linen. 0,5micron or similar. you can also try metal polish on strop. i think www.scienceofsharp.com have a series called the pasted strop 1-4. read that.

do you have a dmt 325? this actually works.

---------

are you asking about a new brand of razor?

i've read too many stories of both dovos and ti's with warped spines and grind issues lately. but supposedly the more expensive models (not the baseline models) have better quality control. almost all new razors are full hollow. i shave better with beefier grinds so i only buy vintage razors. i like wedges 

i'd suggest you get a friodur from ebay. get one that is close to new.

also you might need to do some spine correction on your bismarck.


----------



## inferno

thought i'd share some pics of my razor restoring setup. and methods.

i basically use a drill in a clamping holder for most of the paste/polishing work, and some of the heavy lifting.
i use a drill because i then have access to variable rpm so i dont fry the blades. there is also a lot of different things that will fit in the chuck!

i usually start with the brass brush. this removes rust. but no good steel. after that i can judge what needs to be done.
then after that i i dunk the blades in oxalic acid. this converts all red rust to black. and the whole blade turns black.
then sometimes if there is alot of rust i do the brush again and then more oxalic acid.

then if there is a lot of damage i've tried the sandpaper wheels but these kinda suck. they lose bite very fast and then they basically do nothing.
these are made to spin 10k rpm or so and then they work fine. but this is way way to much rpm for razors.

so instead i use the roloc holder with a 50mm scotchbrite disc. these can dig quite deep. but they also produce deep scratches. you have to work them at an angle since they are flat.

then we have the felt wheels. around 80mm is good for most razors. it follows the radius quite well. you have to learn how to use the corners of the wheel to get into tight radiuses. then i use the 70mm wheel. it gets into more hollow grinds. 
i also have loose cloth "polishing" wheels in 80mm. 

i have noticed its best to do most of the work with sandpaper. use good leather gloves! i've tried everything from 60 grit SIC and alox up to 1500 alox.
and here i can inform you that not all paper is created equal. some last 5 times as long. i use a silicon mat that you put under hot pans and similar. and then i put a roll of electrical top on that as my work platform. works quite well. the tape is quite good since i can put the razor edge down in it without destroying the edge, and it stays put fairly well.

60-180 grit is too coarse. its gonna take ages to get the scratches out. dont use this!

240 grit würth brand is where i start. this is where most of the work is done. then i move onto 400 or 600, usually 600. now its quite shiny. make sure there are no 240 scratches left. then onto 1k. and then 1500 (3m perfect-it microfine), then its dull mirror. and then its off to the felt wheels.

for the 80mm felt wheels i use a coarse and a fine brick. anything will probably do as long as its working. then i use the 70mm wheel with another brick that came with the wheels. but i think its makes stuff too mirrory so it i'm probably not gonna use it anymore. i want some kinda oldschool factory look.
not just a mirror finish. 

i also have flitz.


----------



## inferno

sandpaper wheels will probably be good if there is a lot fewer papers in them. like 1/3 of what i have here. and also if they use some premium paper like cubitron, that dont lose bite in 10 seconds. the paper wheels conform to the grind very well. and you can get very surgical with these. you can do a "light regrind" if you want. but then you need better wheels imo. 3m or similar. at least a well known brand, and probably some of their premium stuff. i see potential in them. i just have crap wheels.


----------



## memorael

inferno said:


> thought i'd share some pics of my razor restoring setup. and methods.
> 
> i basically use a drill in a clamping holder for most of the paste/polishing work, and some of the heavy lifting.
> i use a drill because i then have access to variable rpm so i dont fry the blades. there is also a lot of different things that will fit in the chuck!
> 
> i usually start with the brass brush. this removes rust. but no good steel. after that i can judge what needs to be done.
> then after that i i dunk the blades in oxalic acid. this converts all red rust to black. and the whole blade turns black.
> then sometimes if there is alot of rust i do the brush again and then more oxalic acid.
> 
> then if there is a lot of damage i've tried the sandpaper wheels but these kinda suck. they lose bite very fast and then they basically do nothing.
> these are made to spin 10k rpm or so and then they work fine. but this is way way to much rpm for razors.
> 
> so instead i use the roloc holder with a 50mm scotchbrite disc. these can dig quite deep. but they also produce deep scratches. you have to work them at an angle since they are flat.
> 
> then we have the felt wheels. around 80mm is good for most razors. it follows the radius quite well. you have to learn how to use the corners of the wheel to get into tight radiuses. then i use the 70mm wheel. it gets into more hollow grinds.
> i also have loose cloth "polishing" wheels in 80mm.
> 
> i have noticed its best to do most of the work with sandpaper. use good leather gloves! i've tried everything from 60 grit SIC and alox up to 1500 alox.
> and here i can inform you that not all paper is created equal. some last 5 times as long. i use a silicon mat that you put under hot pans and similar. and then i put a roll of electrical top on that as my work platform. works quite well. the tape is quite good since i can put the razor edge down in it without destroying the edge, and it stays put fairly well.
> 
> 60-180 grit is too coarse. its gonna take ages to get the scratches out. dont use this!
> 
> 240 grit würth brand is where i start. this is where most of the work is done. then i move onto 400 or 600, usually 600. now its quite shiny. make sure there are no 240 scratches left. then onto 1k. and then 1500 (3m perfect-it microfine), then its dull mirror. and then its off to the felt wheels.
> 
> for the 80mm felt wheels i use a coarse and a fine brick. anything will probably do as long as its working. then i use the 70mm wheel with another brick that came with the wheels. but i think its makes stuff too mirrory so it i'm probably not gonna use it anymore. i want some kinda oldschool factory look.
> not just a mirror finish.
> 
> i also have flitz.
> 
> View attachment 142825
> 
> View attachment 142826
> 
> View attachment 142827


Theres a trick to getting your razors squeaky clean without having to do much work... like at all.... go to your local tools and whatnot store and get one of those vibrating things, throw in some almond shells with some crome ox and let it go for like 1 day or whatever... all oxide is gone and the blade is mirror polished. Don't be afraid of throwing in several of them, I did like 20 once and it was the best 24 hours of my life... at that point.


----------



## inferno

yeah well that method will remove metal all over and also at the same rate. and this is definitely not what i want. i want to keep the stamps as crisp and nice as possible for instance. so i dont sand or buff here much at all. this is the very ID of the razor imo. i also intend to leave some pitting. so i just remove the steel around the pitting. 

i regard the pieces i'm working with as pieces of functional art. and i want to restore these to nice but i'm not gonna make them look like newly produced stuff. hey, they are 100-200 years old. and i dont want to destroy the history. i want to do this tastefully. there were real people making these by hand, and they were not very long lived. so i want this to show through. this is handmade stuff. and its old. i want to show respect to the craftsmen that made these.

i enjoy their age and wear, and rust. i'm not gonna regrind any of them to make them look like new. unless they looked like that when i got them. 
i try to do as little damage as possible. yeah its not gonna be 100% perfect. but i dont care. and i dont want that. they should show their age imo.


----------



## memorael

inferno said:


> yeah well that method will remove metal all over and also at the same rate. and this is definitely not what i want. i want to keep the stamps as crisp and nice as possible for instance. so i dont sand or buff here much at all. this is the very ID of the razor imo. i also intend to leave some pitting. so i just remove the steel around the pitting.
> 
> i regard the pieces i'm working with as pieces of functional art. and i want to restore these to nice but i'm not gonna make them look like newly produced stuff. hey, they are 100-200 years old. and i dont want to destroy the history. i want to do this tastefully. there were real people making these by hand, and they were not very long lived. so i want this to show through. this is handmade stuff. and its old. i want to show respect to the craftsmen that made these.
> 
> i enjoy their age and wear, and rust. i'm not gonna regrind any of them to make them look like new. unless they looked like that when i got them.
> i try to do as little damage as possible. yeah its not gonna be 100% perfect. but i dont care. and i dont want that. they should show their age imo.


I understand where your coming from, but! put some electrical tape on the stamps and whatever else you don't want to have changed, the cromox at .5 microns basically just polishes the whole blade, try it one time, if you don't like it at least you now know for sure. Heres a link to a photoless post from a long asssss time ago where you can read a bit about the technique, seriously though try it, YOU WILL BE SURPRISED. 





__





Using a tumbler for polishing old razors -






forum.shavemyface.com





Friodur razors are the henckels ones right?


----------



## inferno

friodurs are henckels. these are better than dovos stainless if you ask me. and i have both. the grind is usually beefier too. and thats a positive.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> friodurs are henckels. these are better than dovos stainless if you ask me. and i have both. the grind is usually beefier too. and thats a positive.



Friodurs are one of the best brands you can get in my opinion. There's a guy on eBay who refurbishes old ones based out of Ukraine or Bulgaria or something. You can sometimes get some real good deals on bare blades no scales. I've picked up 6 or so from them.


----------



## stringer

Also the ones produced for the Japanese market are some of the sexiest razors every made









NOS Straight Razor J.A.HENCKELS Friodur 472 Solingen Germany | eBay


Full length 242mm.



www.ebay.com


----------



## cotedupy

I did a razor restoration last night / today. This was the first time I'd done one, or honed a razor from scratch, and I also wanted to play around with the handle design (natch).

The hinged, scaled design of a SR handle is godawful for 'honing', though it's very good for shaving. I wanted to see if I could do a fixed, kamisori or knife-style handle with more axial symmetry, that might meet somewhere in the middle. It all went surprisingly well.

Start:






I also wanted to incorporate some of the horn scale into the new handle. So epoxied a bit onto the end, along with some Red Mallee burl. The main part of the handle is Olive:






More by luck than by design I got quite a nice balance point here:






I'm going to hold it like this:






Sanded it from 600 to 2k, so still some rust marks, but my first go at a full progression from bevel set went quite well I think:











It shaves excellently at least, and I quite like the fixed handle. Though obviously I made it to suit me, so was amending and altering as I went. Full process here if anyone's interested.


----------



## inferno

looking good with the wood. you might want to thin it out a bit. to make it more sleek/maneuverable in the hand. its personal preference though.


----------



## inferno

so it turns out the last of my holy trinity of humpacks arrived. the wade and butcher one. 
its the one on the bottom. here pictured with the wostenholm and reynolds. these 3 are gonna kick ass! serious ass.


----------



## Grayswandir

Nice job coteduoy! That edge looks pretty sweet. What stones did you use? What type of wood is that?

Those are some really sweet razors inferno. I'm going to take some pics of some razors I have in the next 12 hours or so. I'm finishing up an "Improved Eagle" razor (literally pinning the razor as I speak), and then I have to hone a nice W&B hollow, along with a John Roberts Sheffield. I love the faux framebacks, I have a few of them myself.


----------



## inferno

the only razor i'm still waiting on now is a ct bingham (non fenney) tally ho 6-7/8 or so. but this one has the stamps in like 100% good condition. it might turn up tomorrow. then i'm kinda set for classic sheffields. then i just have to finish them lol  

i have about 10-15 of them with the blades almost finished imo. finished with sandpaper. then i have to buff them. and then scales. then sharpen.

then i have 10-15 in the 240 grit pile. and those are far from finished. they need more 240 paper for instance. 

--------------

show yours when they are finished!


----------



## inferno

if i can find a w greaves and sons humpback then i'll probably buy that too (not sure they made any though). but other than that i think i'm done_ buying_ razors. for now at least.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> i think i'm done_ buying_ razors. for now at least.


That's what I said 300 or so ago.


----------



## inferno

stringer what is your strategy when buying razors? you buy lots or singles?
and venue? local/ebay/flea market?


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> stringer what is your strategy when buying razors? you buy lots or singles?
> and venue? local/ebay/flea market?



All of the above. Generally I try not to spend more than $20/razor unless it's something really special. At first I wanted to have a good example of each brand and style. Now I'm well past that so I really only bid on stuff if it's something I haven't seen. And only if I can get a deal. And it's in really good shape. I bid on lots and on singles. Right now I probably bid on 20 razors a month and win 2. I only low-ball lots too. So I win them less often. But I have scored several in the 1-2 dozen range that have beefed up the total count. I try and only buy ones that appear shaveable. Although I have made some bad calls. Probably 90% success rate in that regard. The worst is when you miss a crack. Just some will take much more time to get there and I don't have any time. 

I go antiquing/flea marketing a lot with my wife. Same thing. When I first started out I would buy anything under $20 that wasn't totally roached. Now I buy anything under $20 that I haven't seen or that I know is good quality. Probably end up with one or two per month.

I was selling refurbs on ebay for awhile. But it gets really frustrating to spend $20 on a razor. Put hours of work into it and then have the winning bid when you sell it be like $24. So now I just sell them or swap them when people approach me. 

I also buy vintage strops and stones. I'm way more of a razor/razor hone collector than knife/stone collector to be honest. I buy a bunch of vintage knives too but I almost always give those away after I refurbish them. They make great gifts for family and employees.


----------



## inferno

ive bought a few "for restore lots" lately and these have provided me with a few good ones imo. 

then i have bought maybe 10 single razors, some from the uk. these were all cheap in the 20-30£ range. from thje us its not this cheap. but i usually buy stuff that no one sees potential in so i get these for like 50$ but some have been significantly more expensive. i usually try to go for the buy it now stuff. andf then bid 50% less or so. and you usually get them for that bid. 

i wanted to build up a little collection here. of nice razors. stuff i wanted. but i didn't want to buy 2-300$ ones either. and most of the "nice ones" are just ruined anyway in my eyes.


----------



## stringer

I'm restoring a strop. Found a real beauty on ebay 






Keith, Richmond, Indiana Shell Horsehide with linen fire hose


----------



## stringer

Back side. You can tell this thing has just hung somewhere. No crease, a little dusty and greasy but no cracks, very little signs of wear. Just needs a good cleaning







My process is to wipe it down with a damp rag. Then clean it with a little saddle soap. Rinse the soap off by scrubbing with more damp rag. Let it dry for 20-30 minutes. Then add a few drops of neatsfoot oil. And then I buff it on old jeans.


----------



## stringer

I'll run the firehose through the dishwasher and then dry it hanging with a weight so it doesn't shrink. I'll clean up the hardware or replace it with some extras I have lying around


----------



## inferno

stringer said:


> I'm restoring a strop. Found a real beauty on ebay
> 
> View attachment 144439
> 
> Keith, Richmond, Indiana Shell Horsehide with linen fire hose
> View attachment 144440
> View attachment 144441
> 
> 
> View attachment 144442
> View attachment 144443
> View attachment 144444
> View attachment 144445
> View attachment 144447



can leather really be restored? i was under the impression that when it starts to crack then its toast.


----------



## inferno

a whole ****ing liter lol.


----------



## Rangen

I don't buy and restore old strops, but maybe I should. My horse-crazy wife already has all the stuff I would need.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> can leather really be restored? i was under the impression that when it starts to crack then its toast.


Once they are cracked they are pretty toast. This one is in great shape. Just needed cleaning and a little oil. It's a crapshoot with old strops. I have several failed attempts


----------



## inferno

FINALLY got this one. best one i found on the bay. first i got sent the wrong one. and then the seller was dragging out on sending the correct one but finally it actually arrived. i thought they were gonna scam me for sure but it showed up like 2 months after i ordered it. it takes a month now to ship **** from the US apparantly. anyone like foxes?


----------



## Grayswandir

Very nice man, that's the wedge version, correct?


----------



## Tapio

Lately I got this Friedr Baurmann & Sohne Monopol razor. It came with a four sided strop. Corrosion had attacked few spots pretty hard and also the edge had a bit of damage. Now it shaves very well after some rust removal, polishing and sharpening. I haven't even tested the strop yet. One day I will explore it.


----------



## stringer

Tapio said:


> Lately I got this F. B. & S. Schutz razor. It came with a four sided strop. Corrosion had attacked some spots pretty hard and also the edge had some damage. It shaves very well after some rust removal, polishing and sharpening. I haven't even tested the strop yet. View attachment 149916


That's a really classy shoulderless you got there. Very nice.


----------



## Tapio

stringer said:


> That's a really classy shoulderless you got there. Very nice.


Thanks. I bought it from a local online marketplace. I didn't know anything about the brand and also the condition of the razor was a bit of mystery. Things turned our well. Everything was in one piece and the edge was perfectly repairable. It definitely was one of my better deals.


----------



## stringer

Tapio said:


> Thanks. I bought it from a local online marketplace. I didn't know anything about the brand and also the condition of the razor was a bit of mystery. Things turned our well. Everything was in one piece and the edge was perfectly repairable. It definitely was one of my better deals.



I am not familiar with the brand and all that my reference books say is 1900-1940, but it looks great. Some of my favorite razors sport similar grinds.


----------



## captaincaed

inferno said:


> FINALLY got this one. best one i found on the bay. first i got sent the wrong one. and then the seller was dragging out on sending the correct one but finally it actually arrived. i thought they were gonna scam me for sure but it showed up like 2 months after i ordered it. it takes a month now to ship **** from the US apparantly. anyone like foxes?
> 
> View attachment 149524
> 
> 
> View attachment 149526
> 
> 
> View attachment 149527


This looks very cool, didn't even know they came with a swept profile


----------



## Grayswandir

I just finished up a nice Genco "Easy Aces" razor.

Here are a couple of photos:









I gave it a very thorough cleaning, sanded down the scales, and replaced the pivot pin. Thing is, the Genco and Case razors tend to use steel rivets, so it's hard to mimic the look. I just used some nickle-silver rod and a small stainless steel washer. Surprisingly, it matched up fairly well. I finished the razor on my Nakayama.


----------



## captaincaed

Working on flattening and resurfacing a translucent Ark. It came used with minor dishing. Found a piece of marble I believe to be pretty flat yesterday and went to town.

Started with surface from a diamond plate, to SiC on Cubitron, and worked up to 1k rhynowet. Not a totally clean surface but much improved. Looking to get some finer SiC powders for a second attempt.


----------



## Grayswandir

captaincaed said:


> Working on flattening and resurfacing a translucent Ark. It came used with minor dishing. Found a piece of marble I believe to be pretty flat yesterday and went to town.
> 
> Started with surface from a diamond plate, to SiC on Cubitron, and worked up to 1k rhynowet. Not a totally clean surface but much improved. Looking to get some finer SiC powders for a second attempt.
> 
> View attachment 150021
> View attachment 150022
> View attachment 150023


 How hard are the translucent arks? Are they as hard as the black arks? It's a beautiful looking stone, and it looks like you did a nice job so far.


----------



## captaincaed

It's super hard. I made and baked cookies and got through 3 episodes of Seinfeld just taking out the surface marks from the diamond plate. Went through about 8 sheets of sandpaper since I don't have SiC finer than 60grit. This is a time investment I want to make once a decade, but not more 

I also noticed some improvement on the razor. Went from skimming leg hair to snagging it, still not tree-topping it. I'm hoping to resurface the stone very, very smooth on one side to be a finisher, and leave the other side at a coarse 60-grit for knife touch ups. Arks cut an edge incredibly fast if they have a fresh surface and/or slurry. An Ark slurry from a coarse diamond plate causes it to cut surprisingly fast and even.

I don't think this is the cleanest translucent Ark. I have a really clean, nice black vintage Ark, unused. I'd say it's equally hard, honestly, and leaves a slightly better edge, but I'm still experimenting with surface quality. I should really read up at B&B, I'm sure it's been talked about to death over there, but I'm new to it.


----------



## Grayswandir

captaincaed said:


> It's super hard. I made and baked cookies and got through 3 episodes of Seinfeld just taking out the surface marks from the diamond plate. Went through about 8 sheets of sandpaper since I don't have SiC finer than 60grit. This is a time investment I want to make once a decade, but not more
> 
> I also noticed some improvement on the razor. Went from skimming leg hair to snagging it, still not tree-topping it. I'm hoping to resurface the stone very, very smooth on one side to be a finisher, and leave the other side at a coarse 60-grit for knife touch ups. Arks cut an edge incredibly fast if they have a fresh surface and/or slurry. An Ark slurry from a coarse diamond plate causes it to cut surprisingly fast and even.
> 
> I don't think this is the cleanest translucent Ark. I have a really clean, nice black vintage Ark, unused. I'd say it's equally hard, honestly, and leaves a slightly better edge, but I'm still experimenting with surface quality. I should really read up at B&B, I'm sure it's been talked about to death over there, but I'm new to it.



I was discussing this topic recently, but about black arks, and it's definitely a serious chore to resurface those stones. The topic was making a convex hone (let's not go there). I don't know much about Arkansas stones, so I wasn't sure if the translucent arks were as hard as the black arks, apparently they are. I'm going to get myself one someday (black ark) and I hear the place to go is Dan's Whetstones. His arks are high quality, at least from what other people have told me. I just want to see how one performs as a finisher for straight razors. I hear you have to find the right one, as they aren't all created equally.

Snagging hair sounds like an improvement, even if slight. I like the idea of having two different surfaces on one natural stone. Will the fine side cut fast as well? And would you use a slurry and dilute it as you honed (for a razor) like other naturals?

-gray.


----------



## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> I was discussing this topic recently, but about black arks, and it's definitely a serious chore to resurface those stones. The topic was making a convex hone (let's not go there). I don't know much about Arkansas stones, so I wasn't sure if the translucent arks were as hard as the black arks, apparently they are. I'm going to get myself one someday (black ark) and I hear the place to go is Dan's Whetstones. His arks are high quality, at least from what other people have told me. I just want to see how one performs as a finisher for straight razors. I hear you have to find the right one, as they aren't all created equally.
> 
> Snagging hair sounds like an improvement, even if slight. I like the idea of having two different surfaces on one natural stone. Will the fine side cut fast as well? And would you use a slurry and dilute it as you honed (for a razor) like other naturals?
> 
> -gray.


There's endless debate which is harder/denser/finer. Hard/black/translucent. And I think the individual specimen does matter. Originally there was just washita/soft/hard. Breaking hard into translucent/black/surgical came later. I have a 4*2 butterscotch translucent and a 3*1 surgical black. I can't tell much of a difference between the two. I prefer the edges I get off of Jasper and a Thuringian a little better. But I prefer the arks for finishing to any of my coticules or high grit synthetics. I haven't used them with rough finishes or slurries. But I think @Desert Rat uses them that way sometimes.


----------



## captaincaed

Grayswandir said:


> I was discussing this topic recently, but about black arks, and it's definitely a serious chore to resurface those stones. The topic was making a convex hone (let's not go there). I don't know much about Arkansas stones, so I wasn't sure if the translucent arks were as hard as the black arks, apparently they are. I'm going to get myself one someday (black ark) and I hear the place to go is Dan's Whetstones. His arks are high quality, at least from what other people have told me. I just want to see how one performs as a finisher for straight razors. I hear you have to find the right one, as they aren't all created equally.
> 
> Snagging hair sounds like an improvement, even if slight. I like the idea of having two different surfaces on one natural stone. Will the fine side cut fast as well? And would you use a slurry and dilute it as you honed (for a razor) like other naturals?
> 
> -gray.


I agree with Stringer, that the edge from my Ark is a bit nicer than the edge from my cotiucle (using what I think is called a dilucot method - start with slurry, thin it down progressively until clean running water). 

HOWEVER

I'm doing a lot of A/B testing with surface finish, and seeing where that road goes. I'll do the same for the Arks and the Coti, but need some more SiC powders first. After this experiment, they seem to be more versatile and efficient than a diamond plate, and leave an even "frosted glass" finish rather an elliptical gouges.

On that note, I probably won't raise a slurry as a habit - using SiC grit wouldn't work, and the plate gouges are deep and hard to erase. I think I'll re-lap it coarse time to time as need calls, just rough up the surface a bit to avoid losing too much stone. 

I think Dan's is the place to go for new Arks, yes. I'd say keep eyes open for vintage too, always a fun hunt.


----------



## cotedupy

Grayswandir said:


> I was discussing this topic recently, but about black arks, and it's definitely a serious chore to resurface those stones. The topic was making a convex hone (let's not go there). I don't know much about Arkansas stones, so I wasn't sure if the translucent arks were as hard as the black arks, apparently they are. I'm going to get myself one someday (black ark) and I hear the place to go is Dan's Whetstones. His arks are high quality, at least from what other people have told me. I just want to see how one performs as a finisher for straight razors. I hear you have to find the right one, as they aren't all created equally.
> 
> Snagging hair sounds like an improvement, even if slight. I like the idea of having two different surfaces on one natural stone. Will the fine side cut fast as well? And would you use a slurry and dilute it as you honed (for a razor) like other naturals?
> 
> -gray.




I’m relatively new to razor honing (so take my opinions with a pinch of salt!), but have been playing around with arks for it recently. These comments relate to my old Norton hards, though I’m sure they stand for Dan’s too.






As mentioned above - hard arks behave _wildly _differently depending on the surface finish. If you rough one with an atoma / SiC they cut very fast indeed, for a short while. If you take the surface to 1k and burnish it - they basically don’t abrade hard steel at all. So if you’ve got two flat surfaces then there’s a huge range of potential finishes for creating a ‘combi’ stone.

In my limited experience - a burnished ark finish will improve an edge off even a very fine jnat. But you do need to have a fine finish beforehand; at that level they really just polish, there’s almost no cutting going on.

Because of this you can’t really raise a slurry on them, as they effectively have zero friability unless you fancy killing an atoma quite quickly. And you can’t do on SiC or sandpaper obviously, as it’ll leave particles on the surface that you need to wash off.

Of mine - the translucents and (slightly translucent) black are to all intents and purposes identical finishes. And yep - Dan’s seem to be the place to go for new ones. I imagine any stone they sell will be excellent; you don’t get and maintain a reputation like that without very serious quality control, especially when selling into a highly specialised market of knowledgable consumers.

All in all - I’d strongly recommend them for razors. I’ve been very impressed!


----------



## Grayswandir

Thank you for the information gentlemen. I really appreciate it. It gives me a good starting point into the world of Arkansas stones. I really love the way the butterscotch stones look, and I find it interesting that they can be just as hard as the black arks, and are nice finishers (depending on how they are surfaced). I really do like the vintage Arks, that's a nice little collection cotedupy, I wish it was mine! 

Cotedupy, your black stone in particular seems to be calling out to me. It kind of looks like the monolith from 2001: A Space Odyssey!  

It's a very beautiful stone. Are the black and the translucent stones you have on display from the 1930's, or are they later examples? I know Norton teamed up with Pike at some point, then simply became known as Norton Abrasives, but I can't recall the dates when these events happened.

Thanks guys.


----------



## cotedupy

Grayswandir said:


> Thank you for the information gentlemen. I really appreciate it. It gives me a good starting point into the world of Arkansas stones. I really love the way the butterscotch stones look, and I find it interesting that they can be just as hard as the black arks, and are nice finishers (depending on how they are surfaced). I really do like the vintage Arks, that's a nice little collection cotedupy, I wish it was mine!
> 
> Cotedupy, your black stone in particular seems to be calling out to me. It kind of looks like the monolith from 2001: A Space Odyssey!
> 
> It's a very beautiful stone. Are the black and the translucent stones you have on display from the 1930's, or are they later examples? I know Norton teamed up with Pike at some point, then simply became known as Norton Abrasives, but I can't recall the dates when these events happened.
> 
> Thanks guys.




Ha... I hadn't thought about the 2001 monolith - it does rather! I like it even more now .

Norton acquired Pike in '32, and Behr-Manning shortly before that I think. The smaller of my two translucents is from '35-'49 I believe, the larger is from the late '50s, black probably early '50s. I might be wrong on some of those, but that's my best guess / understanding.


----------



## cotedupy

This is useful:


----------



## Grayswandir

That's perfect. I made sure to save it. It's a useful little chart.

I have an old Pike Franz Swaty (8x2") that looks pretty old. It has a sticker on the side saying Pike was the sole distributor of Swaty hones in America at one point. I'll include a photo.






It's an interesting piece. I reconditioned the hone and the true color is gray. There were a lot of barber hones that included "Swaty" in the name, as there was no copyright protection. Later on, Pike even manufactured a "Pike Swaty" barber's hone, which is different then the one in the photo above. Maybe they lost the right as sole distributor of the true Swaty hones?






This one seems to be an import from Austria. It's a two-line Swaty, which I think means it came from the son, who took over for the father (Franz Swaty). I guess they were still coming from Marburg at the time. Don't take that as gospel truth, as my memory fails me quite often!


----------



## stringer

I just picked up this little dude on eBay. I'm going to frame it and hang it in my office. It's small 7*10. But I think it's cool and it only cost me ten bucks.

Edited: FYI eBay seller says it is from 1962


----------



## inferno

which nakayamas are good for razors?

i find yellow ones, kiita "4,5" hardness. 
iromono yellow/pink "4" hardness.
gray/blue ones asagi "4,5" hardness

which ones are the most liked ones for razors?


----------



## inferno

Grayswandir said:


> Very nice man, that's the wedge version, correct?



yes its a wedge. almost all my sheffields are wedges or very heavy grinds.


----------



## Grayswandir

inferno said:


> which nakayamas are good for razors?
> 
> i find yellow ones, kiita "4,5" hardness.
> iromono yellow/pink "4" hardness.
> gray/blue ones asagi "4,5" hardness
> 
> which ones are the most liked ones for razors?



Any of those will work fine, they're hard enough, but you should learn about the finer points of each stone. The best setup would be to buy a set of nagura stones with the Nakayama you plan on buying. In Japan, the base stone (Awasedo) for a razor should be hard, and you use the nagura stones to work up a slurry. They go from coarse to fine: botan, tenjyou, mejiro, koma, tomo (tomo is usually a chunk cut off from your base stone). There are other nagura, but I believe they are used for sword polishing. The ones I listed are used for razors (though I imagine they're used for other things as well).

Check out this little Japanese Whetstone Glossary by Keith Johnson. It will help you understand the different Japanese words and what stones are used for what.

Keith is very knowledgeable when it comes to Japanese natural stones, his YouTube videos are an excellent resource as well.


----------



## Grayswandir

inferno said:


> which nakayamas are good for razors?
> 
> i find yellow ones, kiita "4,5" hardness.
> iromono yellow/pink "4" hardness.
> gray/blue ones asagi "4,5" hardness
> 
> which ones are the most liked ones for razors?


The reason I asked is because I have one, but mine is a hollow-ground version. It's the only one I've seen with a hollow grind before. I actually prefer the near-wedge, as I like a lot of steel, but it's still a nice razor.


----------



## inferno

many of the old sheffields were reground when more modern machines turned up.

---------------

what about using a piece of the nakayama base stone as nagura? is it too fine?


----------



## Grayswandir

Yeah, it seems like a lot of them were reground. I guess some people preferred the shave of a hollow, or they switched over because the razor was easier to hone once reground, at least I would assume so. I've never shaved with a wedge before, I'm going to have my first shave with one (W&B 7/8" Chopper) sometime today. I hear they plow through whiskers.


----------



## inferno

i guess its also "fashion" and "new technology". i mean today all razors are full hollows or close to it. and supposedly these "shave better". but for me they just ping a lot more while shaving. while with the heavier grinds they just mow right through everything somehow. i'm not really a fan of these ultra delicate full hollows. its still the exact same edge angle.


----------



## inferno

i happend to try out the extreme end of this. with my own 100g+ kamisori. think i had a dmt 325 edge on there (lol, if its works it works right). it just sliced right through everything and it was one of the closest shaves i have ever had. quite good for being a prototype razor that i made out of an old bearing.

weight does indeed matter imo. you get momentum somehow. and for me its just smoother this way.

but you can see this even with "regular" razors. i have a quite heavy but still very hollow ground friedmann & lauterjung (you know the one stringer) and its quickly becoming one of my favorites. it just shaves better than the ligher ones. it doesn't hesitate as much somehow.


----------



## tcmx3

anyone try and cool new shave soaps lately?

Ive really been enjoying Peaches and Cream from A&E, it's one of the thirstiest soaps I've ever used and Ive had a lot of success with starting with so much water it looks like dishsoap in water and it will emulsify into a wonderfully slick lather. definitely on the soft side of soft peaks but it's insanely slick.


----------



## inferno

tcmx3 said:


> anyone try and cool new shave soaps lately?
> 
> Ive really been enjoying Peaches and Cream from A&E, it's one of the thirstiest soaps I've ever used and Ive had a lot of success with starting with so much water it looks like dishsoap in water and it will emulsify into a wonderfully slick lather. definitely on the soft side of soft peaks but it's insanely slick.



not me.

i'm running the tabac.
kent/with taylor of old bond street sandalwood mix 50/50
klar klassik (2007 or so). i just grated this one a put in a mug. finally.

and these are very very good imo. i've started to mix in A LOT more water in them. and they all get better this way imo.


----------



## Grayswandir

inferno said:


> i guess its also "fashion" and "new technology". i mean today all razors are full hollows or close to it. and supposedly these "shave better". but for me they just ping a lot more while shaving. while with the heavier grinds they just mow right through everything somehow. i'm not really a fan of these ultra delicate full hollows. its still the exact same edge angle.


Well, I'll tell you how my shave goes. I'm gonna shave with the W&B 7/8" after the Soto/Aston Villa match.


----------



## inferno

BUT i do have a new-ish edt that i love. that i loove so much. versace eros. green/blue bottle

when this was launched a few years ago its was so disgusting it wasn't even funny. i had a tester it was so over the top it wasn't even funny. 

but then i was at some airport somewhere killing time and thought i should give it a new go 2 years after launch. and mother of ****ing god, this is good ****! they changed it. its completely intoxicating. long lasting and awsesome. yet classy. smells good for many hours. on clothes for at least 2 days. its definitely one of my top 5-6 or so. and i have about 50-60 of them (i used to fly a lot internationally, every 2 weeks), and i have tested them all. well almost all. and i have the good ones (imo of course  ) but this one is very good imo. i see now they have red ones and edp. have not tried these yet. maybe they are good.


----------



## inferno

Grayswandir said:


> Well, I'll tell you how my shave goes. I'm gonna shave with the W&B 7/8" after the Soto/Aston Villa match.



its gonna be fukn awesome.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> but you can see this even with "regular" razors. i have a quite heavy but still very hollow ground friedmann & lauterjung (you know the one stringer) and its quickly becoming one of my favorites. it just shaves better than the ligher ones. it doesn't hesitate as much somehow.




I remember. Here's his siblings.


----------



## stringer

This one's my favorite F&L


----------



## Grayswandir

I have a Freidmann & Lauterjung from a 2 lot razor buy I picked up on ebay. It's tarnished a bit, but a a little buffing and it will be history withing a few minutes. The second razor in the lot was a really nice W.Greaves "American Razor" with a fancy tang and cool eagle etching. It's a near wedge of course. I've included a photo, but it was from the auction, I didn't take the photo myself.


----------



## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> I have a Freidmann & Lauterjung from a 2 lot razor buy I picked up on ebay. It's tarnished a bit, but a a little buffing and it will be history withing a few minutes. The second razor in the lot was a really nice W.Greaves "American Razor" with a fancy tang and cool eagle etching. It's a near wedge of course. I've included a photo, but it was from the auction, I didn't take the photo myself.View attachment 150546



That's called the Friedmann & Lauterjung Signature. Probably 1880s. They are real nice. Here's a thread I did on B&B about F&L and the company that came after them Electric Cutlery.









Friedmann & Lauterjung / Electric Cutlery


J. Christopher Friedmann and Charles R. Lauterjung immigrated to New York City from Germany as young men in the 1860s. They established a cutlery importing business in 1864, branded as Friedmann and Lauterjung. I have not been able to find any proof, but it is theorized by various internet chat...




www.badgerandblade.com


----------



## Grayswandir

stringer said:


> That's called the Friedmann & Lauterjung Signature. Probably 1880s. They are real nice. Here's a thread I did on B&B about F&L and the company that came after them Electric Cutlery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Friedmann & Lauterjung / Electric Cutlery
> 
> 
> J. Christopher Friedmann and Charles R. Lauterjung immigrated to New York City from Germany as young men in the 1860s. They established a cutlery importing business in 1864, branded as Friedmann and Lauterjung. I have not been able to find any proof, but it is theorized by various internet chat...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.badgerandblade.com


Thanks for information on the razor, I love razor history. It's good to have a name to go with the blade.


----------



## Grayswandir

stringer said:


> That's called the Friedmann & Lauterjung Signature. Probably 1880s. They are real nice. Here's a thread I did on B&B about F&L and the company that came after them Electric Cutlery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Friedmann & Lauterjung / Electric Cutlery
> 
> 
> J. Christopher Friedmann and Charles R. Lauterjung immigrated to New York City from Germany as young men in the 1860s. They established a cutlery importing business in 1864, branded as Friedmann and Lauterjung. I have not been able to find any proof, but it is theorized by various internet chat...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.badgerandblade.com



I enjoyed reading that history. I was surprised to learn they were behind "The Electric" razors, which I really like, I just haven't been successful and getting a hold of one yet. I just won my first Robeson ShurEdge razor recently, along with a really interesting J.Horton & Co. "Swordplay Superior" razor (Sheffield made) with a really interesting etching. I love Robeson, Case, Ka-Bar, Union, & Kinsfolk razors. I'm still missing a few I'd like to get, but that's part of the fun of collecting razors. 

Any new info on their possible connection with Puma, and did they have anything to do with Shumate razors at all?


----------



## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> I enjoyed reading that history. I was surprised to learn they were behind "The Electric" razors, which I really like, I just haven't been successful and getting a hold of one yet. I just won my first Robeson ShurEdge razor recently, along with a really interesting J.Horton & Co. "Swordplay Superior" razor (Sheffield made) with a really interesting etching. I love Robeson, Case, Ka-Bar, Union, & Kinsfolk razors. I'm still missing a few I'd like to get, but that's part of the fun of collecting razors.
> 
> Any new info on their possible connection with Puma, and did they have anything to do with Shumate razors at all?



F&L were importers from 1863-mid 1880s. From Germany for sure but I've never found anything definitive about the manufacturer. But the Puma company was founded and run by Lauterjungs. So there's a good chance that there is a connection. After they sold out the company name was changed to electric Cutlery company and the razors were manufactured in New York/New Jersey


----------



## Tapio

This is my other razor made in Solingen.


----------



## Grayswandir

A nice "Silver Steel" razor from Solingen. You need to slap a new pair of scales on that razor, clean it up and hone it.


----------



## Tapio

Grayswandir said:


> A nice "Silver Steel" razor from Solingen. You need to slap a new pair of scales on that razor, clean it up and hone it.


The original scales are made from bone. I would like to find something similar. Also bone might be ok.That cool etching makes polishing the steel difficult.


----------



## Grayswandir

Tapio said:


> The original scales are made from bone. I would like to find something similar. Also bone might be ok.That cool etching makes polishing the steel difficult.



You could go very lightly with a buffer, use a sisal wheel with black compound, use very little pressure. Or you could use a sewn wheel with green compound, which is gentler then the black. If you want to do it by hand, you can work in reverse, use very high grit sandpaper, start out at around 3000 grit (CAMI or American standard) and use some oil, see how much of the oxidation comes off, then go from there. It's a beautiful razor.

You can work around the etching as well, just be as careful as you can.

I'd go with some new bone for sure. You should be able to find some at a reasonable price on ebay or a similar site.


----------



## inferno

tapio.

i would probably just try metal polish like flitz on paper. rubbing manually. it seems its very mild on etchings and stuff.

but now i see you live in finland and there is probably no flitz there. so maybe try any general metal polish? i have tried the common ones available here (häxan, bistro) and these are complete ****. since they dry out and gum up in about 5 seconds. as opposed to flitz.

i have gotten good results by manually polishing stuff iwith stropping compound for razors.
the thiers issard "pate a rasoir" paste is very good and fast. and mild. quite expensive though.
then you could also try out the different pastes from here below. very good shop from finland!

edit: links are not working properly!
nordicshaving.com --> straight razors --> look for the herold solingen pastes.









Herold Solingen Sharpening Paste red, 2-4 microns







en.nordicshaving.com


----------



## Rangen

inferno said:


> i would probably just try metal polish like flitz on paper. rubbing manually. it seems its very mild on etchings and stuff.



Thanks for this. I just got an Erik Anton Berg razor with great etching that barely shows up in a photo. I will try this trick.


----------



## inferno

i have done all the **** metal polishes and also flitz and pate a rasoir. and they all work. some are just better to work with. 

personally with etchings i say: **** em. better to have a clean good surface than try to hold on to this old **** that is rusted.

you could potentially scan the etch. and then print and just re-etch when polished/restored up good. 
personally i'm not gonna re-etch a single ****nig blade i have. i can tell you that. ething blades is idiotic. and it was that in the 1800eds too, and it is today too. because sooner or later you have to do a very deep grind/polish of the blade to get it clean again. and if you have "artwork" in the way, that you try to preserve. you can't really do that. 

imo **** the artwork. the steel is the artwork. it should speak for itself if its good.


----------



## Rangen

Inferno, I suppose there are a few out there who can beat you in doing rants. But they might all be doing it professionally.

Still going to do what I can for this etching, though.


----------



## inferno

Rangen said:


> Inferno, I suppose there are a few out there who can beat you in doing rants. But they might all be doing it professionally.
> 
> Still going to do what I can for this etching, though.



the thing is: with your blade it doesn't really need anything.
do some metal polish on cloth/paper for 10 minutes. then its as good as factory finish or better imo.

----

now most blades are really rusted out and worn. and people want to "preserve the etchings".  and usually these are some seriously unrealistic expectations. from grown up people to boot.

its like sitting on a 747 and all the engines start burning and blow out, and you wonder where the **** the drink cart disappeared.


----------



## Rangen

The steel is, of course, the main point. I have not found anything better than Iwasaki (especially tamahagane) and various Swedish, but I wonder about what else might be at that level. TI C135, maybe?


----------



## Rangen

Preserving etchings is less insane than preserving gold electroplate.


----------



## inferno

Rangen said:


> The steel is, of course, the main point. I have not found anything better than Iwasaki (especially tamahagane) and various Swedish, but I wonder about what else might be at that level. TI C135, maybe?



most, if not all old razor stuff is very similar. its not like it is today, when there are 57000 different alloys you can make a razor from.
its was 1095-ish stuff, pretty much all of it. this was called "steel". and then you had "cast iron", and "wrought iron".

****, i can make a technically better razor with a blow torch/magnet and a roller bearing today than anyone ever could back in history, like 40-300 years ago. because i understand the science behind it.

to be honest i can make much much better razors than most of the common makers today with a blow torch and my kitchen oven. tougher, harder, finer grained, better edge holding. because i'm not trying to make this as cheap as possible, at a cost of 0,5 dollars. i'm trying to make this as good as physically possible with the materials/methods i can work with a very low tech setup. (i have a magnet man! and i'm not afraid to use it.)


----------



## Tapio

inferno said:


> tapio.
> 
> i would probably just try metal polish like flitz on paper. rubbing manually. it seems its very mild on etchings and stuff.
> 
> but now i see you live in finland and there is probably no flitz there. so maybe try any general metal polish? i have tried the common ones available here (häxan, bistro) and these are complete ****. since they dry out and gum up in about 5 seconds. as opposed to flitz.
> 
> i have gotten good results by manually polishing stuff iwith stropping compound for razors.
> the thiers issard "pate a rasoir" paste is very good and fast. and mild. quite expensive though.
> then you could also try out the different pastes from here below. very good shop from finland!
> 
> edit: links are not working properly!
> nordicshaving.com --> straight razors --> look for the herold solingen pastes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herold Solingen Sharpening Paste red, 2-4 microns
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.nordicshaving.com



I checked the blade and found out that the etching goes pretty deep. This makes polishing much easier. A week ago I moved to Toronto. The only polishing stuff I packed in my suitcase is 2.5 micron diamond paste. I tried to polish the blade with some of that paste on a piece of cardboard. It didn't take too long to make the blade shine. There are still some oxidation spots and tool marks left though. Removing the rest would need coarser paste or some sand paper. I might do it later.


----------



## YG420

Rangen said:


> The steel is, of course, the main point. I have not found anything better than Iwasaki (especially tamahagane) and various Swedish, but I wonder about what else might be at that level. TI C135, maybe?


I have a Machida kamisori made out of Bohler k990 that i would put up there with iwasaki swedish and tamahagane. But i think the tamahagane edges it out slightly on edge holding.


----------



## Grayswandir

Tapio said:


> I checked the blade and found out that the etching goes pretty deep. This makes polishing much easier. A week ago I moved to Toronto. The only polishing stuff I packed in my suitcase is 2.5 micron diamond paste. I tried to polish the blade with some of that paste on a piece of cardboard. It didn't take too long to make the blade shine. There are still some oxidation spots and tool marks left though. Removing the rest would need coarser paste or some sand paper. I might do it later.View attachment 152358


The best polish I've found is SimiChrome. It's a German metal polish and works really well.


----------



## Tapio

Grayswandir said:


> The best polish I've found is SimiChrome. It's a German metal polish and works really well.


I like to use some cheap unbranded diamond paste. It transforms my blades into mirrors with very little effort.


----------



## Grayswandir

Tapio said:


> I like to use some cheap unbranded diamond paste. It transforms my blades into mirrors with very little effort.
> View attachment 152610
> 
> View attachment 152611


Yeah, it looks like it works very well. A true mirror polish. Is that a hand polish or a rotary tool polish?


----------



## Tapio

Grayswandir said:


> Yeah, it looks like it works very well. A true mirror polish. Is that a hand polish or a rotary tool polish?


It's a hand polish. I put a tiny amount of paste on a piece of office or newsprint paper.


----------



## Grayswandir

Tapio said:


> It's a hand polish. I put a tiny amount of paste on a piece of office or newsprint paper.


You did a great job, it looks beautiful. Do you know the grit size of the paste you used? Is it generic paste they sell on Amazon? I still haven't tried diamond paste yet, but I did plan on checking it out at some point in the future.


----------



## captaincaed

Having another crack at getting the Ark tuned up. Rounded corners, more smoothing of the surface. Ran a Kiwi knife over until it cut Kleenex. Should be OK for.another run with a razor. Hopefully!

A flat slab of marble, wet/dry paper and abrasive powders are just the best options for this work. Don't know why I resisted so long.


----------



## captaincaed

Pretty good shave, hopefully it will improve with age. Will work on rounding the black Ark next week.


----------



## inferno

i will have the gokumyo 20k arriving soon. just wanted you all to know that. from what i have read it wont get sharper than this. i'm willing to find out. i still have my spyderco UF. but it sucks so much ass... if i'm lucky, this one will be as fine as the UF but 10 times faster. and thats pretty much all the time i have for this ****.


----------



## inferno

one very big downside with UF is thats its a dry stone. and new 20k is not. that alone makes it worth it. imo.


----------



## inferno




----------



## inferno

i'm gonna sing this to the gokumyo for 20 minutes. then it will become ultra good.


----------



## inferno

thinking about actually playing this for the stone. i defintely have the capability. i have about 1.2x0.5m of modular synth modules. and they are all analog ****.


----------



## Rangen

The Gokumyo 20K makes a stunning shaving edge. No synthetic comes close IMO.


----------



## Grayswandir

Rangen said:


> The Gokumyo 20K makes a stunning shaving edge. No synthetic comes close IMO.


That's what I keep hearing.


----------



## Tapio

Grayswandir said:


> You did a great job, it looks beautiful. Do you know the grit size of the paste you used? Is it generic paste they sell on Amazon? I still haven't tried diamond paste yet, but I did plan on checking it out at some point in the future.


I have pastes from 0.25 micron to 5 micron. I get pretty much similar results regardless of the grit size. I bought those pastes from a Finnish webshop.


----------



## stringer

I picked up a new Thomas Turner. Somebody over buffed it a little but the marks still pop pretty good.


----------



## stringer

Hey @cotedupy 

I just realized something


----------



## stringer

Here's the washita side cleaned and lapped. It's actually not as fine as I thought it would be. Which is fine for knives.


----------



## cotedupy

stringer said:


> I just picked up this little dude on eBay. I'm going to frame it and hang it in my office. It's small 7*10. But I think it's cool and it only cost me ten bucks.
> 
> Edited: FYI eBay seller says it is from 1962
> 
> View attachment 150330



Great minds...

Can't remember if I posted this before but I bought some of these old ads from (I assume) the same seller about 6 months ago. I thought I was getting 3, but five pages turned up, and most are double-sided. Washita and Ark pages are from '48 I think, can't remember about the India ones. I was quite happy for $25 (plus probably another 15 for post), and am going to the same and get them framed up.


----------



## cotedupy

stringer said:


> Hey @cotedupy
> 
> I just realized somethingView attachment 155964



Haha... I was literally just looking at your post and thought that. Pretty smart set eh!


----------



## captaincaed

You two need to meet someday. Probably.in a British country pub to go swap-meet raiding.


----------



## cotedupy

I had a nice little find at a market stall in Belfast recently; ivory-handled George Butler Shakespeare:






Gave it a little clean and then honed on; Washita, Idwal, Blue-Green slate:






Either I'm getting quite good at razor honing, or maybe this is just a fecking excellent razor, but it really was a very good shave indeed .


----------



## Grayswandir

Nice find, what are the scales made out of?


----------



## Dominick Maone

inferno said:


>



Check out the Chris Cornell version. It is amazing.


----------



## Grayswandir

Dominick Maone said:


> Check out the Chris Cornell version. It is amazing.


***?


----------



## cotedupy

Grayswandir said:


> Nice find, what are the scales made out of?



Of my one above...? Ivory. 

TBH I didn't know that when I bought it - it took someone else to point it out to me - I really just picked it up because it wasn't too expensive and had big Bill S on the blade. Nice to have one with ivory scales seeing as everyone on razor forums seems to like them, though not sure I'd go massively out of my way to track down others. I'm not desperately thrilled about the ivory trade past or present, and they feel pretty similar to plastic anyway.


----------



## Grayswandir

cotedupy said:


> Of my one above...? Ivory.
> 
> TBH I didn't know that when I bought it - it took someone else to point it out to me - I really just picked it up because it wasn't too expensive and had big Bill S on the blade. Nice to have one with ivory scales seeing as everyone on razor forums seems to like them, though not sure I'd go massively out of my way to track down others. I'm not desperately thrilled about the ivory trade past or present, and they feel pretty similar to plastic anyway.



I'd like a set of ivory scales just to have, one set would be enough. The only time I think it's right to harvest ivory is when the animal has died. I don't really like to see them burn huge piles of ivory, as it's a waste, but I understand the reasoning behind it. It's appaling to kill animals for their ivory.


----------



## stringer

Just touched up my daily driver, a turn of the century Crown from Boston. Cleaned the bevel up with coticule and coticule slurry. Pre-finished with butterscotch translucent Arkansas. Finished on Israeli Novaculite, aka the Covenant Stone, and my favorite horse shell strop. First time I've tried this stone. Interesting background story. Very Indiana Jones. Very rare because the one guy who could harvest them can't anymore because of landmines or something. @cotedupy knows more about it. Extremely dense. I forget the exact measurement. Forgot to write it down but it was somewhere in between my densest surgical black/translucents at 2.6 and an Escher-esque slate at 2.79 specific density. Which is extremely dense for novaculite. We'll see how it goes in the morning.


----------



## Rangen

stringer said:


> Very Indiana Jones. Very rare because the one guy who could harvest them can't anymore because of landmines or something.



Reminds me of a story. There I was at a wine tasting. The winemaker, who, alas, has left this world, was the only maker of top quality wine in Lebanon. Someone asked him about what seemed to be a touch of gunpowder taste in one vintage.

Winemaker: Oh, yes, that was the year the tanks came through, and we had to harvest in a hurry.


----------



## Rangen

The ivory scale razors I have seem different from plastic/celluloid scales, because they're much, much thinner. Out of necessity, I suppose.


----------



## stringer

Rangen said:


> The ivory scale razors I have seem different from plastic/celluloid scales, because they're much, much thinner. Out of necessity, I suppose.



That's true but I have some that are thin that I know are bone. And some I can't tell at all.


----------



## cotedupy

Rangen said:


> Reminds me of a story. There I was at a wine tasting. The winemaker, who, alas, has left this world, was the only maker of top quality wine in Lebanon. Someone asked him about what seemed to be a touch of gunpowder taste in one vintage.
> 
> Winemaker: Oh, yes, that was the year the tanks came through, and we had to harvest in a hurry.



Ah... Monsieur Hochar!


----------



## cotedupy

stringer said:


> Just touched up my daily driver, a turn of the century Crown from Boston. Cleaned the bevel up with coticule and coticule slurry. Pre-finished with butterscotch translucent Arkansas. Finished on Israeli Novaculite, aka the Covenant Stone, and my favorite horse shell strop. First time I've tried this stone. Interesting background story. Very Indiana Jones. Very rare because the one guy who could harvest them can't anymore because of landmines or something. @cotedupy knows more about it. Extremely dense. I forget the exact measurement. Forgot to write it down but it was somewhere in between my densest surgical black/translucents at 2.6 and an Escher-esque slate at 2.79 specific density. Which is extremely dense for novaculite. We'll see how it goes in the morning.
> 
> View attachment 160961



Interested to hear what you think, as I haven't really tried them in earnest yet on a SR. Useless for knives, though the level of fineness seems like it should work excellently at the very end of a razor progression...


----------



## Rangen

cotedupy said:


> Ah... Monsieur Hochar!



Got it in one. Great guy.


----------



## Grayswandir

I'd be interested to see that stone from Israel. I've never heard of an Israeli stone before.


----------



## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> I'd be interested to see that stone from Israel. I've never heard of an Israeli stone before.



Harvested from the dessert in Israel by a blacksmith and knife maker named Tslil Censor. It looks like he was a member here for awhile. Although he hasn't been around for a few years.

My chunk is 2.25"*2.5". A little small for some folks, but I don't mind a tiny format, and these aren't readily available in bench size, so it is what it is. Despite it's density, the stone seems to absorb a little water. And some internet searching turned up some interviews with Censor where he recommends soaking the stone and raising a mud to use it to sharpen. Which isn't something you really do with a typical Ark. 

The shave went great. That razor is very loud when it is has a nice new edge on it. And it was really singing. Very comfortable too. No nicks or razor burn. I just do one pass on my neck and then clean up my lines. So not the most demanding shaver. But it worked great. Keener than my coticules. More comfortable than my synthetic 12ks. Right up there with my other favorites: jasper, surgical black/translucent, Thuringian, etc.


----------



## Grayswandir

Thanks for the photos and the rundown on the stone. I take it the stone is difficult to get a hold of?


----------



## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> Thanks for the photos and the rundown on the stone. I take it the stone is difficult to get a hold of?



I don't exactly know the details but there was only one guy harvesting them and he can't anymore because there are landmines in the area where the stones are located. So they are difficult to find.


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

Interesting. I've never thought that soaking a novaculite would do anything more than getting it wet.


----------



## Grayswandir

I take it the source of the stones was on Israeli territory near a border? I wonder what changed to where they decided to lay down landmines?


----------



## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> I take it the source of the stones was on Israeli territory near a border? I wonder what changed to where they decided to lay down landmines?



I don't have much info. Just what I've learned from my whetstone penpal @cotedupy. 

"So if you want to swap for ... another interesting thing I have... a very hard and fine Israeli novaculite. These were found and produced by a knifemaker there a while back in a fairly remote mountainous area. He sold them under the name 'Covenant Stone' - if you search for that on SRP / B&B there are some old posts I think. They were pretty expensive, and he doesn't do it any mroe because of landmines in the area they were from, but he gave me a few small koppa type bits recently, which you can have one of. They're seriously fine and now very fast, but certainly interesting!"


----------



## Grayswandir

That was nice of him, to give you a chunk.


----------



## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> That was nice of him, to give you a chunk.


We're both very interested in old stones but not exactly the same old stones so it makes for good swaps.


----------



## Grayswandir

stringer said:


> We're both very interested in old stones but not exactly the same old stones so it makes for good swaps.


Cotedupy has a serious stone collection, he's bonkers for natural stones. It is cool to be able to swap like that with someone.


----------



## cotedupy

stringer said:


> he recommends soaking the stone and raising a mud to use it to sharpen. Which isn't something you really do with a typical Ark.





VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> Interesting. I've never thought that soaking a novaculite would do anything more than getting it wet.



When I was speaking to Tsil he mentioned that the stones he found were of two different types; a very hard Shale, and a novaculite. So perhaps it might have been the shale he advised soaking (?). Though perhaps not - I tried soaking the nagura of that one and it went a bit crumbly, which surprised me for how hard it is when dry.

I got a mix of the two types, though it appeared there were three kinds. Here’s a pic of the ones I have left, two with slurry stones:






The stones are all similar levels of hard, fine, and slow (i.e. off the scale). On the left is the shale, the middle brown one certainly seems to be a chert/novaculite type affair, and is the hardest and glassiest of the stones. The break at the end is very typical novaculite:






The Blue-Grey one on the right is the type I swapped with @stringer and appears to sit somewhere between the two, though leaning more toward the novaculite type, even if it doesn’t ring quite like the brown one. This small chip out of the corner again looks quite novaculite-y:






As I’m learning with all matters of geology - things exist on a spectrum. A translucent ark is basically a pure novaculite, but apart from that the character exists to varying degrees. Idwal stones for instance often still have a bit of slaty folliation, Turkish stones are quite friable with sandstone characteristics creeping into softer versions (to my mind), and these Israeli novaculites perhaps seem to have some shale like properties (?)

- - -

Here’s an old insta message from Tsil about where they were found:






He does still have some pieces I believe if anyone’s interested, though they’re not cheap (rightly so considering the effort it takes!). I believe a cut and shaped 6 or 8 x 2 is going to run in the region of $200.


----------



## Grayswandir

So it was flooding that brought the landmines to the site, that's some bad luck. I really like the shale, it looks beautiful. I can see what looks like mottling. How does it look when wet cotedupy? By the way, are there any Thuringian mines still operating in Germany, or the surrounding area? There was a Polish guy on ebay who was claiming he had freshly mined gray Thuringian stones. I asked him about the mine but he never responded.

Thanks,

-gray.


----------



## Desert Rat

cotedupy said:


> When I was speaking to Tsil he mentioned that the stones he found were of two different types; a very hard Shale, and a novaculite. So perhaps it might have been the shale he advised soaking (?). Though perhaps not - I tried soaking the nagura of that one and it went a bit crumbly, which surprised me for how hard it is when dry.
> 
> I got a mix of the two types, though it appeared there were three kinds. Here’s a pic of the ones I have left, two with slurry stones:
> 
> View attachment 161144
> 
> 
> The stones are all similar levels of hard, fine, and slow (i.e. off the scale). On the left is the shale, the middle brown one certainly seems to be a chert/novaculite type affair, and is the hardest and glassiest of the stones. The break at the end is very typical novaculite:
> 
> View attachment 161145
> 
> 
> The Blue-Grey one on the right is the type I swapped with @stringer and appears to sit somewhere between the two, though leaning more toward the novaculite type, even if it doesn’t ring quite like the brown one. This small chip out of the corner again looks quite novaculite-y:
> 
> View attachment 161146
> 
> 
> As I’m learning with all matters of geology - things exist on a spectrum. A translucent ark is basically a pure novaculite, but apart from that the character exists to varying degrees. Idwal stones for instance often still have a bit of slaty folliation, Turkish stones are quite friable with sandstone characteristics creeping into softer versions (to my mind), and these Israeli novaculites perhaps seem to have some shale like properties (?)
> 
> - - -
> 
> Here’s an old insta message from Tsil about where they were found:
> 
> View attachment 161147
> 
> 
> He does still have some pieces I believe if anyone’s interested, though they’re not cheap (rightly so considering the effort it takes!). I believe a cut and shaped 6 or 8 x 2 is going to run in the region of $200.


Do you have any idea of how the specific gravity compares between the novaculites, just out of curiosity?


----------



## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> Do you have any idea of how the specific gravity compares between the novaculites, just out of curiosity?




This is from a different thread awhile back with a few new ones added.


"Awesome stuff. I measured some of mine just out of curiosity. Using the displacement method and a gram scale.
Washita 2.17
Aizu 2.21
Soft Ark 2.30
Jasper #1 2.41
Hard Ark 2.45
Unknown Reddish Sand Stone 2.46
Jasper #2 2.48
Unknown Greenish Brown Stone 2.48
Turkish PDL? 2.61
Translucent Ark 2.64
Thuringian? 2.79
Coti/BBW #2 2.87
Coti/BBW #3 2.98
Coti/BBW #1 3.02"


----------



## stringer

Here's a few more
Vintage Smiths Hard/Soft Combo 1.96
That's very light for novaculite. Lighter than my other soft arks and washitas. But it doesn't really seem coarse either. It's two "Medium Arks" glued together. I'm going to throw it in one of my work toolboxes.








Buck Washita 2.02

Israeli Novaculite Covenant Stone 2.59
So right in the same ballpark as your hardest arks.

Also, I noticed that my little chunk is partially layered. This is one of the sides. The darker material feels more like Lyn Idwal or Thuringian than Arkansas stone. That brown material on the middle seems coarser and less dense. Probably won't make it to it my lifetime thankfully.


----------



## ethompson

My first straight - a little kamisori. Wasn’t in great shape, but it also wasn’t expensive. Pretty sure the kanji indicates tamahagane. My honing and shaving skills need work, but I easily got it to HHT3 and a little work took me to HHT4. Not sure if straight shaving will make it into my weekly routine, but worst case I’ll use this as a polish mule / bread lame. It’s got some awesome, subtle character in the core and cladding with a jnat polish.


----------



## Rangen

ethompson said:


> My first straight - a little kamisori. Wasn’t in great shape, but it also wasn’t expensive. Pretty sure the kanji indicates tamahagane. My honing and shaving skills need work, but I easily got it to HHT3 and a little work took me to HHT4. Not sure if straight shaving will make it into my weekly routine, but worst case I’ll use this as a polish mule / bread lame. It’s got some awesome, subtle character in the core and cladding with a jnat polish.



Yeah, that's tamahagane. At least the first character of tamahagane. Can't see the second, but I'm willing to take it on faith.

I admit that the idea of using this razor to slash the top of loaves makes me queasy, but just ignore that. 

I assume that the pictures were from before you worked on it. If not, there's some work to do yet.


----------



## ethompson

I’ve done a bit more honing since, but this is roughly where it stands. Truthfully it probably could use a full regrind, but I cant see any corrosion or issues along the edge, even under magnification and the shave was decently comfortable (not as comfortable as my double edge but more some than a cheap disposable).


----------



## Desert Rat

ethompson said:


> I’ve done a bit more honing since, but this is roughly where it stands. Truthfully it probably could use a full regrind, but I cant see any corrosion or issues along the edge, even under magnification and the shave was decently comfortable (not as comfortable as my double edge but more some than a cheap disposable).


The Omote (flat side) can be restored to hollow ground with sand paper wrapped around a dowel. A pencil works pretty well.


----------



## Desert Rat

I have collected a few blades that need scales replaced or are missing. It's time to wade out into that pond.
Where is the best place to purchase these materials?


----------



## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> I have collected a few blades that need scales replaced or are missing. It's time to wade out into that pond.
> Where is the best place to purchase these materials?



eBay. There are vendors that sell horn and bone blanks. Or whatever synthetic material your heart desires. Along with pin material, washers, collars of all sorts of shapes and styles. If you are looking for something in particular I might have a match in my junk pile or be able to point you in a more precise direction.


----------



## inferno

just wanted to give a little review of the gokumyo 20k. 

its good!


thats it 



its a step up sharper than the 12k stones. all of them. and its also quite fast. 
you need to condition it though. there is a green sic rubbing stone that comes with it, 400 grit. and its a good basis. but i finish mine with a coticule nagura. then the result is mirror. 

the result is very slightly sharper than the spyderco UF. but its a much better stone. the UF clogs up in like 10 seconds. and it must be used dry or it wont work. 

this one is a regular waterstone. keeps on cutting when clogged. and its kinda fast for the grit. if you want it flat you need sic powder. 







and here at f 1.4  isn't it pretty.


----------



## Rangen

In terms of keenness and comfort in the shave, the Gok 20K is, in my opinion, head and shoulders above any other synthetic option. And I think I've tried all the viable candidates.


----------



## inferno

i dont know about comfort to be honest. this one is quite bitey somehow. slightest mistake and you get a cut. unlike most 12k stones. you have a bit of leeway with the 12k's.

its simply very very sharp and it could be good/bad for you. the gok and the UF is the only stones i can shave with well, since i only splash some water on my face, lather up and start shaving. i dont take a warm shower before. i shower after i shave. 

my fav above 10k (except the gok) is the shapton pro. its a good 12k. best one i tried so far. but the gok is better. but you also have to be more careful, a lot more imo.


----------



## Rangen

inferno said:


> i dont know about comfort to be honest. this one is quite bitey somehow. slightest mistake and you get a cut. unlike most 12k stones. you have a bit of leeway with the 12k's.
> 
> its simply very very sharp and it could be good/bad for you. the gok and the UF is the only stones i can shave with well, since i only splash some water on my face, lather up and start shaving. i dont take a warm shower before. i shower after i shave.
> 
> my fav above 10k (except the gok) is the shapton pro. its a good 12k. best one i tried so far. but the gok is better. but you also have to be more careful, a lot more imo.



Well, I could see that. I like super-keen edges, so I'm comparing it against what I like: pasted balsa in 0.1 micron, black ark, and, especially, various JNats. It holds its head high in that company, which is more than I can say for any other synthetic.

But if you prefer the forgiving nature of 10k/12k/Coticule edges, then yes, this one will seem risky by comparison.


----------



## stringer

Spring cleaning


----------



## inferno

good work! 

i prefer to use the "thumb on blade grip", instead of thumb under tang grip.
i feel i get much more control and precision that way.

yeah i try to use this one and variations of it. basically i want to be able to grip the blade if possible.


----------



## stringer

inferno said:


> good work!
> 
> i prefer to use the "thumb on blade grip", instead of thumb under tang grip.
> i feel i get much more control and precision that way.
> 
> yeah i try to use this one and variations of it. basically i want to be able to grip the blade if possible.
> 
> View attachment 170797
> 
> View attachment 170798


I will try that at some point. I've never really thought about my grip. 99% of the time I'm just shaving my neck and it's 100% unconscious at this point. But I've probably only shaved my whole face, with any kind of razor, a couple dozen times in my life so I'm definitely still learning what to do about everything else.


----------



## inferno

yeah give it a try. i think you will find it easier. 

the reason i tried it was when i used the thumb under tang grip i noticed that i couldn't hold the razor steady and solid enough, 
because there is no leverage on that little area. so i tried this grip instead and it worked much better. i feel i'm holding onto more of the razor. 
and also the angle of my hand feels more natural somehow.


----------



## Grayswandir

stringer said:


> Spring cleaning



I was surprised you shaved it all off man. It does make shaving a lot easier. I have a beard, but I cut it low around my jaw line, so I have to be careful to make sure the lines are symmetrical on both sides.

Was that one of your Electric razors?


----------



## Grayswandir

inferno said:


> good work!
> 
> i prefer to use the "thumb on blade grip", instead of thumb under tang grip.
> i feel i get much more control and precision that way.
> 
> yeah i try to use this one and variations of it. basically i want to be able to grip the blade if possible.
> 
> View attachment 170797
> 
> View attachment 170798


Are you Batman? How do you shave around your mask? It must be a pain in the butt.


----------



## stringer

Grayswandir said:


> I was surprised you shaved it all off man. It does make shaving a lot easier. I have a beard, but I cut it low around my jaw line, so I have to be careful to make sure the lines are symmetrical on both sides.
> 
> Was that one of your Electric razors?



I'm having that operation on Tuesday. 4 weeks of bed-rest. Decided to cut it all off so I wouldn't have to mess with it while I'm down. 

It's a Crown Razor, Our Very Finest, 1899-1919ish, Boston. That I actually found at a flea market in Virginia.


----------



## Grayswandir

stringer said:


> I'm having that operation on Tuesday. 4 weeks of bed-rest. Decided to cut it all off so I wouldn't have to mess with it while I'm down.
> 
> It's a Crown Razor, Our Very Finest, 1899-1919ish, Boston. That I actually found at a flea market in Virginia.


Nice, I think I have one of those as well. Good luck on your operation, four weeks of bed rest, man that will be tough. Sitting in bed days and weeks on end is a test of sanity, I've been there myself.


----------



## inferno

Grayswandir said:


> Are you Batman? How do you shave around your mask? It must be a pain in the butt.



no, i am robin!

i just have my servants hold it for a while.


----------



## inferno

hope it goes well with your operation! 

you're probably gonna go nuts after 1 week i guess.


----------



## Skylar303

stringer said:


> eBay. There are vendors that sell horn and bone blanks. Or whatever synthetic material your heart desires. Along with pin material, washers, collars of all sorts of shapes and styles. If you are looking for something in particular I might have a match in my junk pile or be able to point you in a more precise direction.


I think knifehandlesupply or something along that line of names sells knife blanks that would work for scales as well. Have a decent assortment of different materials. For pins like @stringer suggested probably ebay.


----------



## inferno

Desert Rat said:


> I have collected a few blades that need scales replaced or are missing. It's time to wade out into that pond.
> Where is the best place to purchase these materials?



i like this place for razor scales and horn and stuff. its like a 1 stop shop. and they also sell lots with razors for restoration. and the pics are high rez so you see what you get in the lots.









Razor Storage & Maintenance







www.griffithshavinggoods.com












Barn Sale Bargains


Occasionally we have excess inventory to clear out (razors, stones, barber collectibles) , or just plain old interesting or collectible items that don't fit anywhere else in our store. Visit often to see the latest bargains we've pulled out of the barn.




www.griffithshavinggoods.com





-------------------------------

i just bought a bacho saw "prize cut" that i'm gonna use to saw up a very big chunk of masur birch that i inherited from my grandfather. its at least 50-60 years old. i guess that will last me for the rest of my life.

for cutting slices out of those smaller pieces i will use my japanese saws. then sand them flat.

tung oiled masur is my all time fav handle material.


----------



## Grayswandir

inferno said:


> i like this place for razor scales and horn and stuff. its like a 1 stop shop. and they also sell lots with razors for restoration. and the pics are high rez so you see what you get in the lots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Razor Storage & Maintenance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.griffithshavinggoods.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barn Sale Bargains
> 
> 
> Occasionally we have excess inventory to clear out (razors, stones, barber collectibles) , or just plain old interesting or collectible items that don't fit anywhere else in our store. Visit often to see the latest bargains we've pulled out of the barn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.griffithshavinggoods.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> i just bought a bacho saw "prize cut" that i'm gonna use to saw up a very big chunk of masur birch that i inherited from my grandfather. its at least 50-60 years old. i guess that will last me for the rest of my life.
> 
> for cutting slices out of those smaller pieces i will use my japanese saws. then sand them flat.
> 
> tung oiled masur is my all time fav handle material.


I was going to bring up Griffith as well. A buddy of mine just bought some horn off him. The horn was good and the shipping is cheap compared to other places.


----------



## Desert Rat

I really should just make my own scales. With the weather warming up I will be able to get back into the shop pretty soon. Just need pins and washers I suppose.

I have a box of cow horns stashed someplace, minus the tips because I use them for making the nocks on English style longbows. 
I kind of suspected I might find a use for that left over horn someday.






I'm guessing cutting the horn into strips, boil to soften and then press them flat?


----------



## tcmx3

anyone try any new soaps lately?

I really liked Peaches & Cognac from A&E. That is their kaizen base; takes an IMMENSE amount of water.
From there tried Petrichor from Barrister & Mann. Interesting scent, but this base just does not seem to work with my water.

I have ordered a new one from A&E called Apricity in kaizen 2, well if it actually improves on kaizen I will be impressed that stuff is already crazy good.

Honestly these soaps have gotten so much better in the past couple of years it would be hard to convince me to go back to that stuff. also at this point I feel like synthetic brushes have gotten to such a great point that I dont see a huge incentive to use badger, despite the fact that I have a pretty significant collection of Paladins. not sure why things have accelerated so much but Im getting great shaves so


----------



## Desert Rat

I loved Grecian Horse from A&E. I tried a few more but that was tops. My wife liked it a lot also and that don't hurt.

Lately I have been using the old reliables. Proraso and Arko. It's really hard to beat a Arko shave, even if they do remind me of toilet pucks.


----------



## tcmx3

Desert Rat said:


> I loved Grecian Horse from A&E. I tried a few more but that was tops. My wife liked it a lot also and that don't hurt.
> 
> Lately I have been using the old reliables. Proraso and Arko. It's really hard to beat a Arko shave, even if they do remind me of toilet pucks.



I have that one! Good stuff for sure. Ive had that and Asian Plum in that base. I think the Peaches & Cognac base is even better.

Probably my favorite soap company to be honest between the performance and the scents.


----------



## Desert Rat

tcmx3 said:


> I have that one! Good stuff for sure. Ive had that and Asian Plum in that base. I think the Peaches & Cognac base is even better.
> 
> Probably my favorite soap company to be honest between the performance and the scents.


Then I have to give Peaches and Cognac a go. I'm just about ready for some more soap. 
These soaps are much more expensive but I do enjoy them and that is a big part of the whole experience for me.
I couldn't get Williams to work at all.
Arko is a very good shave.
Proraso was just OK for me.
Any classic out there I should try?


----------



## VICTOR J CREAZZI

Desert Rat said:


> Any classic out there I should try?


Noble Otter Lonestar


----------



## tcmx3

Desert Rat said:


> Then I have to give Peaches and Cognac a go. I'm just about ready for some more soap.
> These soaps are much more expensive but I do enjoy them and that is a big part of the whole experience for me.
> I couldn't get Williams to work at all.
> Arko is a very good shave.
> Proraso was just OK for me.
> Any classic out there I should try?



Barrister & Mann Reserve Lavender is a GOAT soap

Also Peaches & Cognac is great, so is Apricity


----------



## Skylar303

Random question. What depicts a 'shave cup/mug' vs a coffee cup? It would be nice if one side had a lip for excess lather or something but most look like basic cups usually with an image. Not always shaving related it seems. For example, I think GSG has a mug with a dog on it. I'm not super fancy so I'm just using a coffee cup that was going for donation.


----------



## tcmx3

Skylar303 said:


> Random question. What depicts a 'shave cup/mug' vs a coffee cup? It would be nice if one side had a lip for excess lather or something but most look like basic cups usually with an image. Not always shaving related it seems. For example, I think GSG has a mug with a dog on it. I'm not super fancy so I'm just using a coffee cup that was going for donation.



if something is actually made for shaving IMO it should have some ridges to assist in lather formation and yes a lip to keep stuff in.

consider any of these: DougSmithPottery | Etsy or specifically this one, that I use (and really love) from him.

IMO this one has a nice balance of giving you purchase to help with lathering, without beating up expensive badger brushes (which I ironically basically never pull out anymore but still)


----------



## Skylar303

tcmx3 said:


> if something is actually made for shaving IMO it should have some ridges to assist in lather formation and yes a lip to keep stuff in.
> 
> consider any of these: DougSmithPottery | Etsy or specifically this one, that I use (and really love) from him.
> 
> IMO this one has a nice balance of giving you purchase to help with lathering, without beating up expensive badger brushes (which I ironically basically never pull out anymore but still)


Hey there, thanks for clearing that up. I'm not 100% sure if the one I saw had ridges, but I don't think so. Definitely not a lip. Which led to me asking. I've also seen YouTube people use basic looking mugs.

Thanks for the link I'll check it out.  Yeah I've never tried real Badger brushes, I heard they can be a pain, and smell sometimes. So I have a faux one I use and like. But then again nothing else really to compare to.

You mentioned you don't really use your Badger brushes anymore. What do you use instead? I also got a bottle of shave butter which I don't really like. It seems like it's just basically Shae butter. But works fine if I'm in a rush.


----------



## stringer

Skylar303 said:


> Random question. What depicts a 'shave cup/mug' vs a coffee cup? It would be nice if one side had a lip for excess lather or something but most look like basic cups usually with an image. Not always shaving related it seems. For example, I think GSG has a mug with a dog on it. I'm not super fancy so I'm just using a coffee cup that was going for donation.



I just use a coffee mug. But an extra extra large one. A standard sized one would be too small. A lot of people use cereal bowls. Ridges and bumps will help make lather formation faster theoretically. I've never tried a real shaving mug to be able to tell you if it makes a difference. But I generally don't spend more than 20 seconds or so building my lather, so I never bothered. I use Baum.be for soap.


----------



## inferno

i use these different shaving mugs. 

for loading soap i use regular coffemugs. some are better than others. i grate the soap and jam it in there.
the green plastic one and the black plastic ones with knobs are also for loading soap imo, but you can use them to make lather.
i prefer the green one. better shape. now i just store razors in it. it does that quite good too.

i have tried the small stainless one for making lather and its basically worthless. i now store DE blades in it. quite practical for that.
the mühle white weird bowl is really good, but a bit small. the lather often falls over the edge. you get good grip under it.

my favorite one is some kind of black plastic bowl for dying hair i think, or some makeup thing. i dont know.
i found it in the cosmetics section. 2€.
its quite low, quite wide, has an extra angled rim so the lather stays inside and its made out of plastic so its unbreakable.


----------



## inferno

so today i ordered some new shaving gear.

i followed *tcmx3* advice to get an A&E soap. cannabliss santal.  i really hope it smells like some pure jungle sats. 
also got this one




and then i got a few brushes. starcraft, atomic rocket (another one, to give away), green ray, all from paa





then i got an all stainless mühle rocca to try out. i will do a shootout between that one and the edwin jagger 316. 

-------------------------------

i also made some progress on my 25-30 or so restore razors. 13 are now finished on the p1500 paper and then its only buffing left for those.
so about half way there. needed to do some profile correction and similar on many of them. uneven grinds and such. 

also cut up some wood for handles/scales. birdseye maple, leopardwood, lacewood, lati ("white wenge") and a few others. maybe i can have one or 2 finished this weekend.


----------



## YG420

The wanderer is one of my all time fave scents! I dont think youll be disappointed


----------



## YG420

The explorer and no1 from zingari is good too


----------



## Desert Rat

I have a few new soaps on the way per recommendations here.

I prefer to palm my shave mugs verse a handle. I had a local potter make one to fit my small hands and with a bit of a lip. He showed up with four of them to give me a choice of color. All were slightly different in size. I bought them all.


----------



## tcmx3

Skylar303 said:


> Hey there, thanks for clearing that up. I'm not 100% sure if the one I saw had ridges, but I don't think so. Definitely not a lip. Which led to me asking. I've also seen YouTube people use basic looking mugs.
> 
> Thanks for the link I'll check it out.  Yeah I've never tried real Badger brushes, I heard they can be a pain, and smell sometimes. So I have a faux one I use and like. But then again nothing else really to compare to.
> 
> You mentioned you don't really use your Badger brushes anymore. What do you use instead? I also got a bottle of shave butter which I don't really like. It seems like it's just basically Shae butter. But works fine if I'm in a rush.



WCS Tortoiseshell Collection Torch Shaving Brush, Synthetic 

20 bucks.

if you face lather most synthetics arent stiff enough; but I use the bowl. frankly Id rather spend 50 on a synth and a bowl than face lather anyway, most of my paladins are >200 USD, I have a Declaration Grooming knot, etc. but I just dont find it worth it anymore


----------



## Tapio

Somebody bought this nice old razor today in Sweden. There were plenty of bids and the final price was 2000 SEK (about 210 USD). I have never seen the price of an old razor go so high. Why people like this razor so much?


----------



## inferno

those framebacks usually go for 200-500sek on tradera. there were several makers making them. this one looks like a completely corrosion free specimen. i remember seeing heljestrands in that pattern. i think the above one is an erik anton berg. those are the most common. the ones with the pressed on brass tube as spine are cheaper and more common though.

there are also french variants of that type. such as lecoultre.


----------



## inferno

you should see what some old sheffield razors go for on ebay... search for wade and butcher, for barbers use, frederick fenney tally ho etc...


----------



## Desert Rat

Having started with kamisori's I thought they they were with out equal for smooth and comfortable. And then I stumbled onto the heavy grinds and smiling blades of the old Sheffield's. They take a lot longer to hone but are worth the effort to me.

I know not everyone will agree with that and it's all good. We have plenty of designs out there to fit everyone's preference.


----------



## Skylar303

inferno said:


> so today i ordered some new shaving gear.
> 
> i followed *tcmx3* advice to get an A&E soap. cannabliss santal.  i really hope it smells like some pure jungle sats.
> also got this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and then i got a few brushes. starcraft, atomic rocket (another one, to give away), green ray, all from paa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then i got an all stainless mühle rocca to try out. i will do a shootout between that one and the edwin jagger 316.
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> i also made some progress on my 25-30 or so restore razors. 13 are now finished on the p1500 paper and then its only buffing left for those.
> so about half way there. needed to do some profile correction and similar on many of them. uneven grinds and such.
> 
> also cut up some wood for handles/scales. birdseye maple, leopardwood, lacewood, lati ("white wenge") and a few others. maybe i can have one or 2 finished this weekend.


Hey thanks for the input and pics of mugs you use. I definitely see some trends in shape. I'll try to find a tapered mug as mine is straight sided.

I'd love to see a razor you've restored, as well as the wood scales!


----------



## Skylar303

tcmx3 said:


> WCS Tortoiseshell Collection Torch Shaving Brush, Synthetic
> 
> 20 bucks.
> 
> if you face lather most synthetics arent stiff enough; but I use the bowl. frankly Id rather spend 50 on a synth and a bowl than face lather anyway, most of my paladins are >200 USD, I have a Declaration Grooming knot, etc. but I just dont find it worth it anymore


Hah $20? Sounds about right for my price range. I'll definitely check it out. As I'm using a coffee mug and a synth bagder I grabbed years ago off Amazon for like $8... 

You're right I don't think it's stiff enough for face lather or if tried would take forever...

That's one worry about springing 'a lot' for a fancy x or y. And then end up not using it...


----------



## Skylar303

Tapio said:


> Somebody bought this nice old razor today in Sweden. There were plenty of bids and the final price was 2000 SEK (about 210 USD). I have never seen the price of an old razor go so high. Why people like this razor so much?
> 
> View attachment 173620


+1, simply because it's a frameback. And it's in good condition. The etch doesn't hurt the value either.


----------



## Skylar303

inferno said:


> you should see what some old sheffield razors go for on ebay... search for wade and butcher, for barbers use, frederick fenney tally ho etc...


Especially the wedges and 8/8+... Hah I was watching an old W&B marked at $199.99, see if anyone bit on it. No one did and it got re-listed for $299.99... "Some people's kids..."

After laughing at that, I grabbed a old 13/16 Frederick's, near wedge for just north of $20... Horn scales have some bug bites in them though. 

Hence me inquiring about the wood scales you have in the works. Probably way better than mine.


----------



## Desert Rat

This is one of my favorites. Moth eaten scales, a little left over rust.

I'm not changing a thing....


----------



## inferno

a little review of my new stuff. i had a little shave marathon today.

rocca - shaves close. not too mild, seems a little picky with angles. fairly good grippy handle. 
head feels a bit bulky somehow. its ok. i prefer the jagger 316 though in this price range and category (stainless mass production).
will use it for a week to evaluate it some more.

green ray brush - very soft and floppy, not much backbone as opposed to the atomic rocket. handle is a bit short imo but quite comfortable. i like it.

starcraft brush - more backbone, its stiffer, more boing. handle was quite uncomfortable. it digs into my ring finger outer joint, its all red now. it also lost a lot of hair. so i think its defective somehow.

atomic rocket - this will be a long time review since i've had it for a long time now. good backbone, good stiffness and density yet soft, it lathers *much* better than the other 2. handle is good and long, and ultra comfortable, you get very good grip on this one. dont know how to improve on this one to be honest. kickass brush.

cannabliss santal - doesn't smell like weed at all imo. smells like some kind of green forest though, ok scent, nothing special. it might grow on me though.

wanderer - smells awesome, intoxicating! wow. i still think the klar classic smells nicer and i feel they are in the same scent category, not super close though.

will have to try out the soaps much more though of course.


----------



## tcmx3

Skylar303 said:


> That's one worry about springing 'a lot' for a fancy x or y. And then end up not using it...



hahaha couldnt be me  







inferno said:


> cannabliss santal - doesn't smell like weed at all imo. smells like some kind of green forest though, ok scent, nothing special. it might grow on me though.



well I cant speak to scents that much since that's kind of a personal thing, but I dont particularly find the genre of plants/woods/fields after the rain etc. to be a particularly on description set of soaps. frankly, I prefer fruit/floral scents and I think they have a tendency to match the copy better.

that said, even if you dont love the scent, A&E soap is the best Ive used from a shaving properties perspective. every one of them Ive owned can take an ABSURD amount of water and as such result in very smooth shaves.


----------



## inferno

i noticed it needed a lot of water. i loaded for 10 seconds, then started whipping up lather but it was way too thick. after i added water 3 times it started to turn into lather.
same with the wanderer. maybe i should load for a shorter time? all my other soaps i load for 10 seconds. but it might be too much for these soaps?


----------



## tcmx3

inferno said:


> i noticed it needed a lot of water. i loaded for 10 seconds, then started whipping up lather but it was way too thick. after i added water 3 times it started to turn into lather.
> same with the wanderer. maybe i should load for a shorter time? all my other soaps i load for 10 seconds. but it might be too much for these soaps?



it's hard to say without me having ever used your brush.

what I will say is that the amount of water that modern SOTA soaps uses is kind of universally very high. the emulsion stability is improving in each of these generations of soap and now I feel like for a one pass shave (my preference) I hardly need much soap. I actually put a bit of hot water on the puck and just make sure I get all of that as a start and then add and add and add and...

A&E should definitely be taken to a point where it has a distinct shiny sheen to it and almost looks wet and is in the soft peak stage. it's worth sacrificing one bowl of soap to push it until it breaks IMO, just to understand just how far it can go.


----------



## Bolek

Desert Rat said:


> Having started with kamisori's I thought they they were with out equal for smooth and comfortable. And then I stumbled onto the heavy grinds and smiling blades of the old Sheffield's. They take a lot longer to hone but are worth the effort to me.
> 
> I know not everyone will agree with that and it's all good. We have plenty of designs out there to fit everyone's preference.


I just bought for my son this Sheffield. Do you know such razor ? How good is it ? How old is it? I paid 15€ for it. Does it have any value ?


----------



## Skylar303

Bolek said:


> I just bought for my son this Sheffield. Do you know such razor ? How good is it ? How old is it? I paid 15€ for it. Does it have any value ?


Hard to see the picture. One of the more recognizable brands. How good? That's more of a personal preference. Can't really see the marks to date it. Value in terms of? Anything you spend money on should have value to you, imo. €15 is good since it has a box also. But it looks like the blade has a crack in it? 1/4" from the heel?


----------



## Bolek

Skylar303 said:


> Hard to see the picture. One of the more recognizable brands. How good? That's more of a personal preference. Can't really see the marks to date it. Value in terms of? Anything you spend money on should have value to you, imo. €15 is good since it has a box also. But it looks like the blade has a crack in it? 1/4" from the heel?


Thanks.
No crack only bad picture.


----------



## Skylar303

Bolek said:


> Thanks.
> No crack only bad picture.


Solid find.


----------



## inferno

Bolek said:


> I just bought for my son this Sheffield. Do you know such razor ? How good is it ? How old is it? I paid 15€ for it. Does it have any value ?



is it a wostenholm? it looks very modern so i'd guess early 19hundreds. does it say england somewhere on the tang? then its definitely/probably made after 1893 or 4 or something. because around that time all imported razors had to be stamped with the manufacturing country. before that it only said sheffield. (for importation to the US that is. US was the main market for all these sheffield brands)

how good is it? as good as you sharpen it i'd say. its a full hollow so either you like it or you dont. i personally dont like full hollows. i want more meat on there.

the big brands out of sheffield were wade&butcher, george wostenholm, joseph rodgers, frederick reynolds and a few more.

these are sought after brands. personally i like the older beefier (wedge grind) ones better, especially the larger smiling ones and the humpbacks. you can see how these look earlier in the thread. these can get very expensive. a few hundred if in good shape.


----------



## inferno

when buying old razors. i tend to avoid the pristine ones that are obvious restores (your one doesn't look like a restore though).
i mean if its from 1850 and looks like a mirror, well then guess what. carbon steel that is 170 years old dont look like that...

and you dont know if someone just buffed the hell out of it and the steel was overheated and there is no hardness left. its very little steel there to act as heatsink... then its a paperweight.

so i buy those that are 100% untouched. and all of those are restore objects in one way or another. but at least when they are restored they will perform and hold an edge. as good as they did when they were new that is. there is no guarantee this will be good in general though.


----------



## Tapio

inferno said:


> when buying old razors. i tend to avoid the pristine ones that are obvious restores (your one doesn't look like a restore though).
> i mean if its from 1850 and looks like a mirror, well then guess what. carbon steel that is 170 years old dont look like that...
> 
> and you dont know if someone just buffed the hell out of it and the steel was overheated and there is no hardness left. its very little steel there to act as heatsink... then its a paperweight.
> 
> so i buy those that are 100% untouched. and all of those are restore objects in one way or another. but at least when they are restored they will perform and hold an edge. as good as they did when they were new that is. there is no guarantee this will be good in general though.


That´s a great point. I forget that easily since I don't use power tools.


----------



## Grayswandir

Tapio said:


> That´s a great point. I forget that easily since I don't use power tools.


The chances of getting a razor with heat damage from someone over-buffing is very rare. I've bought hundreds of razors and I've yet to find one damaged like that. A dead giveaway that a razor has problems is weird photo angles. If the seller doesn't shoot clear pictures of both sides of the blade, then something is wrong nine times out of ten. Always ask questions if you have suspicions a razor is being misrepresented. 

Inferno is correct, all razors after 1890-91 made in England had to have a country of origin stamp on the tang. I think Germany may have followed suit as well. Maybe they had a trade agreement, or the trade laws were changed in Europe. He's right about mirror polished blades as well. It's very rare for a carbon razor not to pick up some patina after 100 years. I guess it's possible for a razor to kept in a way that it retains its original finish, but it's probably very rare.


----------



## Desert Rat

tcmx3 said:


> Barrister & Mann Reserve Lavender is a GOAT soap
> 
> Also Peaches & Cognac is great, so is Apricity


 Indeed, Reserve Lavender is very nice, it was a great shave. It's my wife's favorite so far too and that don't hurt nothing.


----------



## podzap

tcmx3 said:


> if something is actually made for shaving IMO it should have some ridges to assist in lather formation and yes a lip to keep stuff in.



And it should also not be glazed. Glazed surfaces are the enemy of lather formation.

This is my lather bowl:


----------



## Desert Rat

I ended up with three of the recommended soaps and haved shaved on each of them.
All of them are really nice, couldn't go wrong on any of them. I like a little variety, it just keeps things interesting.


Thanks guys...


----------



## Grayswandir

podzap said:


> And it should also not be glazed. Glazed surfaces are the enemy of lather formation.
> 
> This is my lather bowl:


I agree, but a lot of shave mugs are made with smooth bottoms. It's very odd.


----------



## inferno

the more and more i shave i revert to the basics.

and the basics for me is hard soaps.

haslinger ringelblume/sandalwood (open container)
tabac tallow (stored/used in open container)
klar klassik. (open container)

those are better than the "artisan" soaps imo. they lather much much faster. the lather is better. they are cheaper. they last a long long time. several years.

i just recently found out tabac was switching to vegan only. they actually did this one year ago. i just found out though.
so i went to my local store and bought all of their tallow stock. got 4x100g sticks. for like 6€ each. that will keep me running for about 10 years. considering that i have other soaps. i also got one of the new stock vegan tabacs. dont like it to be honest. would have to grate it and mash it into a jug before i truly judge it though. the jury is out on this one for now. looking bad though.

also: dont get a muhle rocca. this is a **** razor. first and foremost the blade needs to be centered manually. since the cap tabs are too slim to do that. you have a 0,5mm wiggle or so / vs the bottom plate safety bar.. which equates to a lot at worst or a little. **** even my razorrocks do this blade centering 100%, and they are half price.

what a ****ing shitshow.  also the underside of the top cap looked like it was processed by a gorilla. and it was just magic/luck that this did not warp the blade when in there.

total **** show. i dont know what to say.

well i do know. get an edwin jagger 316 instead. shaves better. cost the same. slimmer head. it just feels and works better overall. handle is only so so though. the rocca handle is nicer. i use razorrock or diy handles on both though.

this is my favorite handle all over. i drilled mine out though. to make its lighter. razorrock.
then again i should be using straights and not these toys. like a real man 

the edwin jagger 316 head and the below razorock handle is the best combo i have. except for the all ti all polished timeless open comb 0,95mm, which is just as good.


----------



## BillHanna

This is just razor adjacent: 

A suribachi as shaving bowl? @inferno can you rec a beginner twist to open, besides a vintage Gillette?


----------



## inferno

none of them! as far as i know they are all zamak **** alloy. (plated zink/potmetal).

get either a 0,95mm timeless open comb. ss/ti/blasted or polished. (i like the polished one)
edwin jagger 316.
razorrock 0.84mm gamechanger. safetybar.
or if you feel like a snow flake, get the feather as-d2, but its very mild.

you can however tune the feather by putting 1 or 2 ground down blades (grind the edge off) under the actual cutting edge. then its turns into a gamechanger 0,84 kinda. but then you could just as well, just simply get a gamechanger.

i find the gamechanger a bit too mild. the 316/timeless is just enough though. and i'm fairly certain it wont get any better than this for me at least. ymmv.


----------



## podzap

inferno said:


> also: dont get a muhle rocca. this is a **** razor. first and foremost the blade needs to be centered manually. since the cap tabs are too slim to do that. you have a 0,5mm wiggle or so / vs the bottom plate safety bar.. which equates to a lot at worst or a little. **** even my razorrocks do this blade centering 100%, and they are half price.



Blah, blah, blah. I have a Muehle Rocca R96 stainless and it has no such problem. In fact, if you have really paid around 100 EUR for a razor that doesn't centre the blade and you KEPT IT INSTEAD OF RETURNING FOR AN EXCHANGE then it is you, mon cheri, who is ****.


----------



## cotedupy

A couple of days ago I received my first kamisori, a little 50mm ish tamahagane number, purchased from @ethompson on BST. He'd said that even though the omote was a little worn, it seemed to take a pretty sweet edge quite quickly, though pointed out he wasn't necessarily a razor expert.

Now I am certainly not a razor expert, and though I know my way round a yanagiba, I had never touched a kamisori before. So I was still expecting something of a learning process, and my initial attempts at honing to be beset by inexplicable failure. But knock me down with a feather... to say this takes a nice edge quickly is a colossal understatement. It takes an amazing edge in basically no time at all, and needs only very cursory stropping after. In a later message ET said: _'I feel like you can almost just wave it in the general direction of a stone and it’s sharp again.' _Well quite!

I used both of these stones, but actually went back to the FTOS after the Asagi - I'm loving that stone and the edge on this razor was just excellent off it, plus the finish on the soft steel (iron?) was nicer than from the jnat. And having enlisted some expert advice over on B&B, and then seen just how good the edge is, I'm going to leave the omote for the moment I think. It's kinda funky, and I don't want to risk ballsing things up.






















What looks like a bit of delam in one of those pics, I don't think is... I can't feel it anyway. In fact the only problem I have is that now I want more kamisori, and I'd be relatively certain that others aren't going to live up to it. Like being suckled on Romanee-Conti, or having your first line at a party thrown by Bogota squillionaires.


----------



## ethompson

Wish I knew the maker, that steel really is a joy


----------



## Rangen

cotedupy said:


> And having enlisted some expert advice over on B&B, and then seen just how good the edge is, I'm going to leave the omote for the moment I think. It's kinda funky, and I don't want to risk ballsing things up.



I agree with you. Don't mess with it. One of my favorite-shaving kamisoris is a tamahagane with a lot more wear than yours has. There almost isn't a hollow any more, on that side. It shaves wonderfully, and I will make a new hollow only when I am absolutely forced to.


----------



## Desert Rat

cotedupy said:


> A couple of days ago I received my first kamisori, a little 50mm ish tamahagane number, purchased from @ethompson on BST. He'd said that even though the omote was a little worn, it seemed to take a pretty sweet edge quite quickly, though pointed out he wasn't necessarily a razor expert.
> 
> Now I am certainly not a razor expert, and though I know my way round a yanagiba, I had never touched a kamisori before. So I was still expecting something of a learning process, and my initial attempts at honing to be beset by inexplicable failure. But knock me down with a feather... to say this takes a nice edge quickly is a colossal understatement. It takes an amazing edge in basically no time at all, and needs only very cursory stropping after. In a later message ET said: _' I feel like you can almost just wave it in the general direction of a stone and it’s sharp again.' _Which sums it up pretty well.
> 
> I used both of these stones, but actually went back to the FTOS after the Asagi - I'm loving that stone and the edge on this razor was just excellent off it, plus the finish on the soft steel (iron?) was nicer than from the jnat. And having enlisted some expert advice over on B&B, and then seen just how good the edge is, I'm going to leave the omote for the moment I think. It's kinda funky, and I don't want to risk ballsing things up.
> 
> View attachment 175904
> 
> 
> View attachment 175902
> 
> 
> View attachment 175903
> 
> 
> View attachment 175905
> 
> 
> 
> What looks like a bit of delam in one of those pics, I don't think is... I can't feel it anyway. In fact the only problem I have is that now I want more kamisori, and I'd be relatively certain that others aren't going to live up to it. Like being suckled on Romanee-Conti, or having your first line at a party thrown by Bogota squillionaires.


LOL!
Are kamisori's the sharpest thing ever?


----------



## cotedupy

ethompson said:


> Wish I knew the maker, that steel really is a joy



Yeah I did ask over on B&B but the relevant kanji are apparently pretty much illegible, unless you knew the maker already. Someone did send me this link though as a potential place to look, so I may have a search through later, and see if anything comes up...









Tanifuji (Fukutarō)


IMPORTANT: If you want to use information of this site, please use a link to my page instead of copying parts of my pages. In that way the information will be the most up-to-date! Please also read …




historyrazors.wordpress.com





[EDIT - it actually looks like that link is about western style Japanese razors, unless I'm missing something. So probably won't help!]




Rangen said:


> I agree with you. Don't mess with it. One of my favorite-shaving kamisoris is a tamahagane with a lot more wear than yours has. There almost isn't a hollow any more, on that side. It shaves wonderfully, and I will make a new hollow only when I am absolutely forced to.



Cheers. Yeah this was certainly my inclination... if it ain't broke!




Desert Rat said:


> LOL!
> Are kamisori's the sharpest thing ever?



Haha! I didn't actually know that some people said this before I got it. I was kinda hoping it might be as good as a decent western razor, once I'd learned how to hone it well. But it already takes at least as keen an edge as my best straights, off a lower grit stone - the FTOS is only about 10k ish I guess. If you started playing around with seriously fine finishing stones or pasted balsa, it'd get proper scary I imagine.


----------



## YG420

Got a couple of Kamijos in a few weeks ago. Was stuck in Japan for 3 months, damn near lost my mind. Pretty cool to find some that dont have a heavy grind.


----------



## YG420

Also got some Iwasaki tamhagane kamisoris a few months ago. Looks to be reground but done beautifully. This is after cleaning some rust and stuff off and the one on the right has a quick n dirty kasumi on it that i managed to scratch the kuro finish on


----------



## Moooza

Nice Kamijyous YG. So hard to find, great condition.


----------



## YG420

And this one is a fun one, a Takami 76mm rentetsu white 1 kamisori. Sharp af, shaves smooth as butter, and the f&f is probably the best ive ever come across in a razor. Came with a super slight frown that had to be corrected and it was scratching my strop for some reason. Come to find out the razor was probably made too precise and straight so i had to ease some of the corners on the ura side spine and now its perfect. A really fun razor!


----------



## YG420

Moooza said:


> Nice Kamijyous YG. So hard to find, great condition.


Thanks bro! Ill trade you for your super special Iwasaki(s) lol!


----------



## stringer

I haven't been buying many razors but I couldn't help but pull the trigger on a lot that included two Japanese beauties.


----------



## BillHanna

Had my first DE shave today. I look forward to more enableism (sp?).


----------



## ethompson

BillHanna said:


> Had my first DE shave today. I look forward to more enableism (sp?).


Wish there was more DE talk here, I love the the idea of straights, but for my daily routine the ease to quality ration is just off the charts.


----------



## BillHanna

I got a starter kit from Stirling. I’m glad I upgraded the brush by one size; now I just need to decide how much to spend on a nice razor.


----------



## natto

BillHanna said:


> Had my first DE shave today. I look forward to more enableism (sp?).


DE? double edge? Would you mind to explain?


----------



## stringer

Yes. Double edge safety razor. Something like this.









Merkur - 34C Extra Thick Handle Safety Razor


Buy Merkur 34C at a great price at www.newenglandshaving.com. Free shipping on orders over $30! Merkur 34C is a best seller for us and is also one of the most popular Merkur Safety Razors with a 3" long knurled non slip handle with a thicker grip and finished in chrome. Crafted and constructed...




newenglandshaving.com


----------



## natto

stringer said:


> Yes. Double edge safety razor. Something like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Merkur - 34C Extra Thick Handle Safety Razor
> 
> 
> Buy Merkur 34C at a great price at www.newenglandshaving.com. Free shipping on orders over $30! Merkur 34C is a best seller for us and is also one of the most popular Merkur Safety Razors with a 3" long knurled non slip handle with a thicker grip and finished in chrome. Crafted and constructed...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> newenglandshaving.com


Thank you. I just stopped to mix up double bevel with double edge.


----------



## Grayswandir

natto said:


> Thank you. I just stopped to mix up double bevel with double edge.


You can find some nice DE razors ebay, restoredand cleaned, often with the original case. I have a buddy who just started selling them again. He's primarily a straight razor seller, but sells hand-made strops and DE razors at different times in the year.


----------



## cotedupy

ethompson said:


> Wish there was more DE talk here, I love the the idea of straights, but for my daily routine the ease to quality ration is just off the charts.




Funnily enough I got and tried using a DE a couple of months before getting my my first straight, and I couldn’t get my head round it. I’ve still cut myself more in that six weeks than I have with any SR ever.

(I imagine I just bought a crappy DE tbh. Though I certainly don’t find straights as tricky as they seem on paper... which is probably why I’ve fallen down another rabbit hole eh!)


----------



## natto

Grayswandir said:


> You can find some nice DE razors ebay, restoredand cleaned, often with the original case. I have a buddy who just started selling them again. He's primarily a straight razor seller, but sells hand-made strops and DE razors at different times in the year.



I like to follow the diskussion, but no need for DE.


----------



## BillHanna

Grayswandir said:


> You can find some nice DE razors ebay, restoredand cleaned, often with the original case. I have a buddy who just started selling them again. He's primarily a straight razor seller, but sells hand-made strops and DE razors at different times in the year.


I was looking at getting a vintage from my birth year(1973), but the handles are ugly. They seem pretty affordable, considering what you can pay new.


----------



## Grayswandir

BillHanna said:


> I was looking at getting a vintage from my birth year(1973), but the handles are ugly. They seem pretty affordable, considering what you can pay new.


There should be some nice ones from that era, I'll ask my buddy if he has anything from 1973.


----------



## tcmx3

BillHanna said:


> I was looking at getting a vintage from my birth year(1973), but the handles are ugly. They seem pretty affordable, considering what you can pay new.



I have personally never regretted paying for the nicer DE razors that are out these days.

The one I can recommend to anyone as the best price/performance IMO is the Blackland Blackbird. 200 dollars and worth every cent. Hardly the only good razor though; I also think Timeless and Charcoal Goods are making great razors at reasonable prices.


----------



## BillHanna

I actually ordered a Rockwell 6S earlier today. Step 2 into another hobby . We’ll see how many razors I own by Christmas.


----------



## BillHanna

My Wiiiiife just found out razors can cost like knives.

“Oh boy. I should’ve known.”

yeah. prolly.


----------



## SolidSnake03

tcmx3 said:


> I have personally never regretted paying for the nicer DE razors that are out these days.
> 
> The one I can recommend to anyone as the best price/performance IMO is the Blackland Blackbird. 200 dollars and worth every cent. Hardly the only good razor though; I also think Timeless and Charcoal Goods are making great razors at reasonable prices.



agree with this totally, blackbird user myself and best one I’ve tried after trying basically everything out there at least as much as anyone can keep up that is

never been one for straight razors myself although that might be because I only really shave my neck and line up beard and my neck hair all grows weirdly upward and shaving up your neck with a straight is tricky…


----------



## tcmx3

SolidSnake03 said:


> agree with this totally, blackbird user myself and best one I’ve tried after trying basically everything out there at least as much as anyone can keep up that is
> 
> never been one for straight razors myself although that might be because I only really shave my neck and line up beard and my neck hair all grows weirdly upward and shaving up your neck with a straight is tricky…



yeah all of a sudden the space is crowded.

a few years ago there were fewer choices and most were pretty good. now... a lot of these razors seem they are just people trying to cash in on the hobby. the same as pocket knives really.

in the end my favorite is the blackbird or my timeless 95 OC, both of which were some of the earlier razors I bought. I have a couple of unobtanium ones (wolfman, paradigm, raw shaving) and theyre all good too but you can actually buy a blackbird and those razors all cost way more and I dont think any of them are better, so to me that makes the blackbird kind of the defacto winner. 

I have a Rocnel Elite I bought in 2019 that is a nice razor but exhibits some of this new marketing strategy these companies have. they didnt make many for basically zero reason. now they have a new razor out for like 450 euros...

you just wont convince me that any cnc steel razor is worth huge money when I can go to blackland or timeless' site and click order and have a good razor.


----------



## tcmx3

Im gonna soap box here for a minute but Ive not had a great track record with unobtanium stuff.

I think there are owners of this stuff who see it as an investment and just pump it super hard.

I can call my local guitar shop and buy a Two Rock and it'll be better than any of these dumb clones of Dumbles run by unscrupulous people who build 4 amps a year but take orders for like 50.

Similar story with razors. Wolfman? Sure it's good. The guy knows how to make a razor. Not appreciably better than other razors. Paradigm? Dont actually like my 17-4 that much; too little feedback. Raw Shaving RS-10? Again good razor just nothing special. But when I tried to say as much on a certain shaving forum it did NOT go over well.

With other owners.

oh well.


----------



## cotedupy

Can someone explain to me what makes for a good DE?

I would’ve thought that it’s relatively simple, so they should all work well: Make sure the blade doesn’t jump out, and the handle stays on, hope the whole thing’s not too wonky, and bang... you’re good to go.

What nuances am I missing?


----------



## SolidSnake03

cotedupy said:


> Can someone explain to me what makes for a good DE?
> 
> I would’ve thought that it’s relatively simple, so they should all work well: Make sure the blade doesn’t jump out, and the handle stays on, hope the whole thing’s not too wonky, and bang... you’re good to go.
> 
> What nuances am I missing?



for me a good de is something that clamps the blade tightly, supports it well, has ample enough/wide enough lather channels, good grippy handle, made of material that will last and has tight enough tolerances that blades fit perfectly on the first try, no need to jiggle them into place or reposition them. Also stuff that cuts super close/aggressively without discomfort (proper blade support and rigidity) in that I can get away with one or one and a half passes to clean smooth stubble free skin. It’s surprisingly not that common to find newer DE that do this all well that are also nicely made. A lot of vintage stuff fits most of these boxes but really misses on the aggressive/close shave part unless you go do the Gillette adjustment/fat boy rabbit hole and then you are talking some potentially expensive razors that need some maintenance to keep the mechanism happy long term.


----------



## cotedupy

Another thing I'd been waiting on for a while came up recently - a reasonably priced, decent enough condition ('user grade') Filarmonica. This is a 2e Generation Medallon Taurino Muleta 13b:








I didn't really know what any of that meant initially, but it's basically a mid century Doble Temple 13 with a picture of the corrida on it. The 'b' is particularly interesting though, as it was a designation for Filis exported to Japan, many of which had 1/4 hollow grinds:







The guy I got it from wasn't f***ing spiders when he said it was shave ready either - this thing it an absolute dream.

And the icing on the cake of all that, was that he also chucked in quite a nice piece of Mikawa nagura, and a small chip that had broken off it:







And we all know what Mikawa nagura really do best...


----------



## cotedupy

SolidSnake03 said:


> for me a good de is something that clamps the blade tightly, supports it well, has ample enough/wide enough lather channels, good grippy handle, made of material that will last and has tight enough tolerances that blades fit perfectly on the first try, no need to jiggle them into place or reposition them. Also stuff that cuts super close/aggressively without discomfort (proper blade support and rigidity) in that I can get away with one or one and a half passes to clean smooth stubble free skin. It’s surprisingly not that common to find newer DE that do this all well that are also nicely made. A lot of vintage stuff fits most of these boxes but really misses on the aggressive/close shave part unless you go do the Gillette adjustment/fat boy rabbit hole and then you are talking some potentially expensive razors that need some maintenance to keep the mechanism happy long term.




Ah, makes sense. I suppose now that I think about it - there's no reason that the tiny tolerances that a straight has in terms of things that somewhat f up how it shaves, wouldn't also apply to a DE, just to other bits of it.

---

Have you, or anyone else, ever tried sharpening a DE blade? I know that basically no one does any more cos you can get perfect blades for pennies now, but it'd be fun to know if anyone had done it... One of the more pleasingly niche stones I stones I own is this White Tam O'Shanter Safety Razor Hone, with one side concaved. They were originally made for the British Army I believe, but some appear to have been exported to Aus as well.

Flat side is actually a really nice bevel polishing stone for knives it turns out. Just slightly small!


----------



## tcmx3

cotedupy said:


> Can someone explain to me what makes for a good DE?
> 
> I would’ve thought that it’s relatively simple, so they should all work well: Make sure the blade doesn’t jump out, and the handle stays on, hope the whole thing’s not too wonky, and bang... you’re good to go.
> 
> What nuances am I missing?



it's both hard and not that hard right.

vintage razor makers poured huge money into R&D to work out the geometries of the shave head. they tended towards milder shaves, also blade manufacturing definitely wasn't up to modern standards so it probably would have been a bad idea to make them cut too close anyway.

once you are paying a bit more much of what you're getting is better materials, f&f, consistency in razor to razor, maybe some more advanced machining, that sort of thing.

whether or not the razor is actually a good shaver usually comes down to does the maker understand that this stuff has already been worked out, or are they a tool who has a big ego and thinks they can start a razor company to make some money off instagram ad sales.

that said, there is a HUGE practical difference in shave between razor heads and all of the best ones Ive tried have been well outside of the starter DE camp, though as I stated, you dont have to spend 400 USD to get a good one, just 200 or so.


----------



## BillHanna

The phrase "he wasn't fvcking spiders" tells me allllllll I need to know about Australia.

What kind of pervert would sharpen a safety razor? I try to be fetish friendly, but geez.


----------



## cotedupy

.


----------



## cotedupy

BillHanna said:


> The phrase "he wasnt fvcking spiders" tells me allllllll I need to know about Australia.




Ha, indeed!

'We're not here to f*** spiders' is undoubtedly Australia's most (arguably _only_) worthwhile contribution to the English language.


----------



## Tapio

BillHanna said:


> What kind of pervert would sharpen a safety razor? I try to be fetish friendly, but geez.


Back in the day they had many handy little gadgets for safety razor sharpening. I can only admire all that clever engineering.


----------



## captaincaed

That's the coolest thing I've seen all day


----------



## podzap

BillHanna said:


> I got a starter kit from Stirling. I’m glad I upgraded the brush by one size; now I just need to decide how much to spend on a nice razor.



Stirling makes pretty good soap IMO, real tallow and shea. Starting to get pretty damn difficult to find tallow soap anymore due to the global terrorist-style organisation named PETA. Tallow based soaps are pretty much the only ones I don't get razor-rash with. If you shave every day, one can of Stirling will last about 4 months. A stash of 50-60 cans might last you for the rest of your life.


----------



## tcmx3

podzap said:


> Stirling makes pretty good soap IMO, real tallow and shea. Starting to get pretty damn difficult to find tallow soap anymore due to the global terrorist-style organisation named PETA. Tallow based soaps are pretty much the only ones I don't get razor-rash with. If you shave every day, one can of Stirling will last about 4 months. A stash of 50-60 cans might last you for the rest of your life.



Im sorry but this is so at odds with reality I dont even know how you could think that.

I just went on West Coast Shaving and sorted by popularity and of the 10 I opened, in a row from top to bottom, the only one that WASNT tallow was a sub 10USD soap.

Stirling is mid, anyways. It has a price that reflects that. You should check out the ingredients list on a container of Arianna & Evans or Declaration Grooming soap; they have whole damn zoos in them these days.


----------



## BillHanna

tcmx3 said:


> You should check out the ingredients list on a container of Arianna & Evans or Declaration Grooming soap; they have whole damn zoos in them these days.


Shopping around, I think I found one with three or four animal fats.


----------



## Desert Rat

Tapio said:


> Back in the day they had many handy little gadgets for safety razor sharpening. I can only admire all that clever engineering.



I wonder if those were made during the war years or were folks just more frugal back then?

It's also interesting that they produced chisel grinds, convex edges and hollow ground edges.


----------



## Desert Rat

cotedupy said:


> Another thing I'd been waiting on for a while came up recently - a reasonably priced, decent enough condition ('user grade') Filarmonica. This is a 2e Generation Medallon Taurino Muleta 13b:
> 
> View attachment 176730
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't really know what any of that meant initially, but it's basically a mid century Doble Temple 13 with a picture of the corrida on it. The 'b' is particularly interesting though, as it was a designation for Filis exported to Japan, many of which had 1/4 hollow grinds:
> 
> View attachment 176729
> 
> 
> 
> The guy I got it from wasn't f***ing spiders when he said it was shave ready either - this thing it an absolute dream.
> 
> And the icing on the cake of all that, was that he also chucked in quite a nice piece of Mikawa nagura, and a small chip that had broken off it:
> 
> View attachment 176728
> 
> 
> 
> And we all know what Mikawa nagura really do best...
> 
> View attachment 176726
> 
> 
> View attachment 176731
> 
> 
> View attachment 176727


Lack of a stabilizer is the first clue that I might really like a razor.


----------



## podzap

tcmx3 said:


> Im sorry but this is so at odds with reality I dont even know how you could think that.



Not outside of your bubble. I don't live in USA and European makers have all but stopped using tallow, meaning if we get anything then it's imported from the US.


----------



## esoo

podzap said:


> Not outside of your bubble. I don't live in USA and European makers have all but stopped using tallow, meaning if we get anything then it's imported from the US.



Cella and Mitchell's Wool Fat still use tallow.


----------



## tcmx3

podzap said:


> Not outside of your bubble. I don't live in USA and European makers have all but stopped using tallow, meaning if we get anything then it's imported from the US.



and the very next post basically drives the nail in the coffin. plus if you can still import it, it's not like you are prevented from getting it.

sorry to rain on your politically motivated unhappiness just because it doesn't square with the evidence


----------



## BillHanna

What’s y’all’s favorite summer soap?


----------



## tcmx3

BillHanna said:


> What’s y’all’s favorite summer soap?



Grooming Department NY Chypre

unfortunately not something that's possible to get.


----------



## Grayswandir

BillHanna said:


> What’s y’all’s favorite summer soap?


Irish Spring.


----------



## inferno

podzap said:


> Blah, blah, blah. I have a Muehle Rocca R96 stainless and it has no such problem. In fact, if you have really paid around 100 EUR for a razor that doesn't centre the blade and you KEPT IT INSTEAD OF RETURNING FOR AN EXCHANGE then it is you, mon cheri, who is ****.



i actually sent pics of the misalignments to mühle and they are sending me a new head under warranty. the top cap also had some casting porosity. 
but dont tell anyone. since its supposed to be a cnc'ed head from bar stock. and bar stock is of course always forged to 100% density. so it naturally doesn't have any porosity. 
but mine had. so i make my own conclusions here. only having worked in the metalworking industry for about 20 years or so. 

mühle came through with the warranty so i'm not gonna post the pics here. and they were non problematic.


----------



## inferno

so i just got a mühle r41 stainless. many people say the r41 is the most aggressive razor there is. maybe it is. 
some say the jaws .84 is more aggro. and now when i have the jaws and the r41 i'd say the r41 is much much much more aggressive. much more.
you feel it straight away that you now have a blade on your face. the jaws is actually quite tame compared. not a fav though. far from it. 
the jaws is quite harsh. r41 is harsh too. but the r41 digs deeper. you have to be more careful. 

you could potentially shave every day with the jaws but not with the r41. at least not 3 pass shaves. not gonna happen for me at least. 

if the r41 stainless is a 9. 
the jaws is a 7,5-8 or so.
gamechanger .84 a 3-4
ti .95 opencomb timeless 7
edwin jagger 316 7
feather 1-2. 

i made a new handle for my r41. inspired by the tradere handle. the thing with 6al4v ti is that it its really hard to press knurl. you can do it with a lot of time and patience. but in general you simply can't do it. i tried it. turned to ****. tried it again, turned to **** again. and then i knew i had to do variation on that tradere theme. something i could work with.

6al4v has twice the flexibility/half the stiffness of steel. 
about 2-3x as strong as austenitic ss.
conducts heat very very bad. basically the heat stays where you produce it. such in a hole. 

so when machining this you need to have 
1 a lot of cooling.
2 tools with special geometry.
3 lots of cooling
4 lots of lube. 
5 low rpms. (heat/energy increases squared with rpm)
6 high feed. 

i didn't have any of that. except maybe low rpms. yeah i can do that. i also only have access to an old ****** lathe that has no power feed. so i have to do the feed by hand. and its ****** so the screw is notched so it feeds in small jumps. 

it takes me about 1,5h to simply drill 1 4,2mm hole and then tap it m5. if the tap is willing to bite in at all that is. this is not always the case. its actually the exception. 
just getting a tap to bite in this **** takes 10 minutes. 

---------------------------

*behold! *

the inferno improvised tradere handle in 6al4v. had to do the ribs for grip. then i roughed them up with a 180 paper axially. it works. it wont spin in your hand after this.


----------



## KO88

BillHanna said:


> My Wiiiiife just found out razors can cost like knives.
> 
> “Oh boy. I should’ve known.”
> 
> yeah. prolly.


I shouldn't show this at home... I was chasing a couple and they were part of a bundle. I end up like this (+3 another picture +1 another)


----------



## stringer

KO88 said:


> I shouldn't show this at home... I was chasing a couple and they were part of a bundle. I end up like this (+3 another picture)
> View attachment 177240
> View attachment 177239


That's how it starts. Sorry for your luck. But those are some beautiful razors. Think about how much money you'll save by not buying replacement cartridges.


----------



## inferno

then after that 12 or so h to make that handle i felt i needed to do a simple handle. drilled out. light. big diameter. simple/fast to produce. 

so i produced the following. in ti obviously. since this is what i have on hand. 
tried to do a flute knurling on this one. didn't work out very good. shaved it off and this is what i came up with. (i also have to pretend i'm working while doing these)

the bottom part is polished to p1500 finish. and the ribbed parts 80 grit. looks the same in the pics though. in reality one is mirror polished and the other ultra rough.

problem with this one is that the actual threaded hole for the head is somehow at an angle. maybe 2-3 degrees. and this is weird since its drilled in a lathe. 
but i flipped it several times before i drilled the hole. since it turned out that drilling a big diameter hole would be the biggest problem in this material. 

it is what it is. wall thickness is 2mm. its way too heavy. but its also 14mm dia. my ti stock is 14,4mm.






i deemed this to be too heavy so i had to put these fukn handles on a diet. so then i thought. hey why the f not do these at 0,75mm wall thickness. and so i did. 
then i came to the ribs and there i would simply slice through the material. since these ribs are 0,75mm deep. so i could only do 0,75 wall for about 40mm. then its actually about 1,5mm wall thickness. but at the ribs its much thinner of course. 

didn't turn out too well. i made the handle 100% done but then i decieded to thread it manually after all machining. 
usually i use the 3 fluted straight taps. but neither the regular or ss taps even bit into this piece. so i had to revert to to the cnc type tap (bottom hole instead of through hole) and this is a much weaker tap. this one actually bit into the material. i did a whole rev and then started to back it out to get the 3 flute in there. and it ****ing snapped as soon as i reverted!! 

--------------------------

so now i have a finished handle with a broken tap in it. 
i'm currently corroding it out of the ti with hcl 30%. 







i also have 50% finished handle in there that i'm corroding a 10mm drill out of. it happens.  basically all these drill bits are one time use items with 6al4v in manual machines. and i started hearing when it made bad noises. you can do 1mm pulls and then you have to reverse to not overheat the drill. and i wanted 3mm more. 3mm deeper. one extra round. without regrinding the drill bit. i was greedy.

what happened was that the drill was too dull. the friction increased in a exponential way. the ti that does not conduct heat away kept it at the tip of the drill bit. and also the heat increased in a an exponential way. the titanium temperature very quickly rose to the superplastic region, the drill melted, ti grabbed hold of the drill and snapped it. since its still very strong at this temp. and now also ultra flexible. and ultra grabby.

we'll see how the acid does. maybe i can rescue them both. 

also my favorite handle head/handle combo. 316/radio knob (with muted knurling)


----------



## inferno

KO88 said:


> I shouldn't show this at home... I was chasing a couple and they were part of a bundle. I end up like this (+3 another picture +1 another)
> View attachment 177240
> 
> View attachment 177239
> View attachment 177243



looks like at least a few grands in razors there is you sell them separately. 

polish up the japanese ones. and you might get 100-150 or so. from the right person. i wouldn't pay more than 50 for them though.

also the green spanish one. that will fetch some money. maybe 150. or more. for the right customer.

also the very curved japanese ones will fetch some money. the black one maybe 2-300. maybe less? maybe more?

i dont know. there is a few grand on that table at least. if sold to the right people. 

i'm willing to give a 50-100 for 1 of the less extravagant ones. sight unseen. maybe the red one in the lower right corner. or the yellow one lower left corner. 

and yes, i'm the wrong person to sell these too. because i dont really see the "collector" value in them. i dont regard these as exotic at all. they are all 1900eds. but i will pay though.


----------



## KO88

inferno said:


> looks like at least a few grands in razors there is you sell them separately.
> 
> polish up the japanese ones. and you might get 100-150 or so. from the right person. i wouldn't pay more than 50 for them though.
> 
> also the green spanish one. that will fetch some money. maybe 150. or more. for the right customer.
> 
> also the very curved japanese ones will fetch some money. the black one maybe 2-300. maybe less? maybe more?
> 
> i dont know. there is a few grand on that table at least. if sold to the right people.
> 
> i'm willing to give a 50-100 for 1 of the less extravagant ones. sight unseen. maybe the red one in the lower right corner. or the yellow one lower left corner.
> 
> and yes, i'm the wrong person to sell these too. because i dont really see the "collector" value in them. i dont regard these as exotic at all. they are all 1900eds. but i will pay though.


The green Spanish is 14 Novodur if you know someone selling it for 150 in great shape just let me know  

My point wasn't making money on razors but finding more Tanifujis (Cape, Maxfli, Spalding...) which I like...

I've tried only one of those the Yama and after 3k 6k 13k and Jnat progression, the shave was brilliant!

But true is that I will sell couple. Not Tanifujis and not Filarmonicas. One Saito sk3 I mistakenly bought 2x


----------



## inferno

i just mean that you could sell these for a bit of money. especially the swoopy saitos.

if they are rust free. they will fetch more.

i'd guess these are all 1920-1950 or so production and also mass production. might be outliers. so not super exotic. but still good stuff.

personally i collect sheffields with cool shapes/patterns. i like wedge grinds, since these are repairable 10 times over if corroded. its a lot of metal there. that you can grind away. these are worth it for me.


----------



## inferno

KO88 said:


> The green Spanish is 14 Novodur if you know someone selling it for 150 in great shape just let me know



try polishing up the blade and the handle and see if you can sell it. everybody loves those spanish ones these days. i have 0 of them though. i just dont find them special enough to spend time on. my goal is not to sell but to own and use. for fun basically. i mean who the f shaves with straights because they have to. its quite slow.


----------



## Rangen

Someone told me that "Iwasaki" means "best way to save money on razors." They lied. Oh, how they lied.


----------



## BillHanna

I haven’t used the Rockwell 6S, but I love the weight. No titanium for this guy. It’s the hefty razors for me.


----------



## esoo

I have the Rockwell 6S. Like it as a nice piece of kit, although I save infrequently so tend to use the most aggressive plate.


----------



## Grayswandir

KO88 said:


> I shouldn't show this at home... I was chasing a couple and they were part of a bundle. I end up like this (+3 another picture +1 another)
> View attachment 177240
> 
> View attachment 177239
> View attachment 177243


I hate you.


----------



## cotedupy

Err... I made a kangaroo strop out of a scrap I bought the other day when there was a leather shop next to the pub. You could probably do it with a pair of scissors in about 5 minutes.


----------



## cotedupy

KO88 said:


> I shouldn't show this at home... I was chasing a couple and they were part of a bundle. I end up like this (+3 another picture +1 another)
> View attachment 177240
> 
> View attachment 177239
> View attachment 177243



Sweet collection!

Would love to hear more about some of them...


----------



## KO88

Grayswandir said:


> I hate you.



Also got this. It instantly happens to be my wife's most beloved bathroom decoration!


----------



## KO88

cotedupy said:


> Sweet collection!
> 
> Would love to hear more about some of them...



Today I'm trying this “western kamisory” (how are those called?). I'm not so good at honing kamisories so wish me a smooth shave...


----------



## KO88

Where to start?!

On the last strop on leather, the “kihera” were sticky with the leather. I guessed a good sign.

Yes!!! HHT4 silent killer. Epic shave! Razor is small but uaa the edge! Very happy with it. Was scared ahh...

I honed it on:
3k Chosera
6k Nanohone
13k Sigma select

Razor Nakayama with atoma slurry first then plain water.
Final strop Cordovan 80k (on pic is 77)


----------



## BillHanna

The homie @tcmx3 came through with some Charcoal Goods lvl2 goodness. Looking forward to it in the morning.


----------



## Ericfg

A bit off-topic, and not meaning to derail this thread but, has anyone ever re-purposed straight razor blades? Using perhaps a damaged/chipped blade and making an EDC or something useful in the kitchen or office? Or even as a display piece? TIA


----------



## Tapio

I just bought a Soviet razor. Don't know much about it but at least it is in pretty good condition. Стиз is an acronym for The Factory Of Steel Products.


----------



## Rangen

Tapio said:


> I just bought a Soviet razor. Don't know much about it but at least it is in pretty good condition. Стиз is an acronym for The Factory Of Steel Products.



Finland, eh? Did one of their frozen soldiers drop it when you all were chasing them all over the snow in your white camo and skis?


----------



## Tapio

Rangen said:


> Finland, eh? Did one of their frozen soldiers drop it when you all were chasing them all over the snow in your white camo and skis?


It's possible. That brand was used 1940-1983.


----------



## cotedupy

Ericfg said:


> A bit off-topic, and not meaning to derail this thread but, has anyone ever re-purposed straight razor blades? Using perhaps a damaged/chipped blade and making an EDC or something useful in the kitchen or office? Or even as a display piece? TIA




I haven't personally, but lots of people have, and it's perfectly doable. Probably just wouldn't want anything with too hollow a grind I imagine. Whatcha got in mind...?


----------



## Ericfg

cotedupy said:


> Whatcha got in mind...?


Dunno. An EDC, or a paring/fruit profile? Box cutter?


----------



## inferno

just wanted to give an update on the acid bath stuff in ti. so actually corroding hss steel out of ti is not a fast process. 

i found that putting some 12% hydrogen peroxide in the mix speeded the process up. the 30% hcl only seems to last a few hours. 
also its good to keep everything horizontal, since the iron oxide that is produced can then flow in/out of the part. and new acid can get in. 
hdpe plastic containers is good for this. i think it took about 3 days to melt out the tap. and about a week to melt out the drill bit. they both came out in pieces.
it might go faster if you mix in some water. but dont quote me on that. i just get the feeling that whatever you are trying to dissolve needs something to dissolve into. 

well. just pouring acid in the threaded hole didn't do much to be honest. it wasn't until i filled the whole container up with 50/50 water/acid and then some hydrogen peroxide that i started to see actual results. it still only lasts for a few hours. 

------------------

the rocca issue. muhle warrantied my rocca head. because of material flaws and the alignment issue. 
but the new head they sent me also had the same alignment issue. no ****. i think i can tilt the blade about 5 degrees or so. 
and while this might not be the end of the world. i think this should not happen on a cnc razor. 

basically what they did is this: they machined the tabs to the blade dimensions when its laying flat.then its tight. 

but in the razor, while in use the blade is curved very much.
and that also makes the aligning area much wider. maybe 0,15 to 0,2mm wider, since the blade is now bent in that area. 
so now you a real possibility of misaligning the blade and that 0,15mm or so will result in about +-0,8-1mm left-right difference (up-down). and this will definitely affect your shaving. no ****. you increase the exposure by 0,5mm or so. lol 

but yeah its not a big deal if you are used to DE razors you just adjust it by eye. but still i dont think its very good for a cnc:ed razor. and i have woked as a cnc operator/programmer. machining steel. several hundreds of kilos a day. 

------

basically i was gonna send this razor to my cousin, but now i have to go there and instruct. 

----------

the upside is that i got a slightly defective rocca head for free. 
i immediately started to polish it with p1000 and p1500 paper and now its really nice. 

-------------------

i also ordered a blackland gem razor. the sabre. i like some sabre rattling so i wanted a sabre. 
we'll see how that one does. 

i will post a review after a few uses. is it better than DE?? better than straights??

who knows. all i know is that im a bit poorer and that i will very soon own a sabre. 

---------------------

oh yeah just wanted to get this info in. 
about 3 days ago i fired up the feather as-d2 with 2 spacers under tha blade. and to my surprise it was so mild so i could go over the places where i missed several times. until it was all bbs. no ****. this must have been one of the closest shaves i have ever gotten. ever. and i was seriously contemplating just sending the **** to billhanna and be done with it. and let he sort it out  just to **** with him. but now i see an actual use for the mild razors. very eye opening. 

sorry bill 

with the razors that i think are good, you really cant "go back" and finish up. you would be totally ruined then. but with the feather you can. even with the 2 spacers. and you can go back until its done. just like a mach 3. well almost like a mach 3. almost. 


anyway this is the handle i made for the incoming sabre. 30 grams. 13mm. ti. on the polished rocca head. 
i'm not saying the rocca head is ****. but you need to do some manual adjustments imo. and if u can live with that its just as good (well almost as good) as the EJ 316 and the timeless OC .95mm ti. its a very heavy head. at 40 grams. EJ is 32g. and 0.95mm ti timeless OC is 22g. so yeah its heavy no matter what handle you put on there. 






p1500 finish rocca head.


----------



## inferno

yeah just a funny sidenote on the ti handle. when the drill-bit was removed i shone flashlight in the hole. and i found out the ti part was cracked. 6al4v likes to crack instead of bending. even though this piece bulged radially when the drill snapped inside.

however i just put a new 10mm drill in there and drilled maybe 3-4mm extra and then all cracks were gone. no more cracks. and no cracks went to the outer diameter. they just went axially maybe 2mm.

in one way, this is an awesome meterial, and in another way, its, your worst nightmare, x2.


----------



## inferno

also i think you can see the alignment in the last pic. (non adjusted)

not very good...


----------



## Legion74

KO88 said:


> I shouldn't show this at home... I was chasing a couple and they were part of a bundle. I end up like this (+3 another picture +1 another)
> View attachment 177240
> 
> View attachment 177239
> View attachment 177243



Nice score. There are some very high end, collectible razors in that bunch.


----------



## inferno

BillHanna said:


> I haven’t used the Rockwell 6S, but I love the weight. No titanium for this guy. It’s the hefty razors for me.



hi bill i see you are looking for a daily. 

i'll do a rundown of what i have.

ss r41. no way. way too aggressive.
rr gc84 jaws. no way.
edwin jagger 316. maybe. but probably no. 
rocca. its more aggro than the jagger. just a bit.
timeless .95 oc. more aggro than the rocca and ej so no.

rr gc .84. could work. but i find it too agressive for daily use to be honest. 
it pretends to be mild but in reality its not. feels mild though. you cant whip it around like mach 3. 

feather asd2. maybe too mild. but this one is usable for daily shaves. i like to do 2 shims in mine and then it just becomes perfect. 
maybe use 1 shim in it and that might be enough. for me at least with 2 shims this is as good as it gets. mild enough for daily, aggro enough for bbs.

then my latest buy. the rr bbs oc. its definitely works just the way it is. but now i've tried it with 2 shims and 1 shim. i think its best with 1 shim. now its perfect.
but even without shims its about as good as the feather with 1 shim. its a bit more tolerant with angles than the feather too. 

so yeah i recommend those 3. the feather with 1-2 shims is ultra good and also the bbs oc with 1-2 shims. and even without them. 
this is what a daily should be. 

take care bill!


----------



## BillHanna

I have been looking at Timeless. I was thinking of getting a couple scratch and dent bronze plates and a cap, and pairing it with a heavy handle from west coast shaving. We'll see.


----------



## inferno

if you have any questions bill i'm willing to answer.


----------



## BillHanna

I've figured out blade gap and exposure are and are not important, but I've decided to play around and make a bunch of purchases of things I can sell, or don't mind sitting around. I'm just gonna use gap/exposure as a jumping off point, and have seven day trials.

I have a used Karve CB in the mail with a solid B plate, and the cheapo head from WCS coming with some handles from their sale. 

As far as shims; just dull down a blade? Use a washer?


----------



## inferno

BillHanna said:


> I have been looking at Timeless. I was thinking of getting a couple scratch and dent bronze plates and a cap, and pairing it with a heavy handle from west coast shaving. We'll see.


from what i've read about timeless. the .68 or whatever it is. its very mild. i mean it could work. but its a lot of dough. 
the .95 is way too aggro for daily imo unless you have a truly feather touch. my oc is smooth though. but it digs quite deep. 

the bronze ones are supposedly quite aggressive. both the oc and sb. the oc is definitely ultra aggro. and with the sb you get ultra conflicting info. some say its mild (older posts) but now for the last 2 years or so most people seems to think its quite aggressive. too aggressive for daily if i'm reading things right. and i'm quite good at actually deciphering what people actually mean. personally i would stay away. but then again it could work out well for you. never tried any one of them. 

now about the feather. this one feels ultra mild. and its almost impossible to cut yourself with it. the head design is very good. and its smooth. 
i feel that for me its just a bit too mild. but the base design is good. very good. since you can always take it up a notch or 2 with shims. 
for me with 2 shims and personna platinums this delivers a very very good shave. and you can use it every day. also the handle is very good and grippy. 

i feel the bbs oc is very similar in action, but it looks cooler. its just a bit more aggro than the feather stock. ran it for a week with 2 shims and i think these were the best shaves i've ever had with a DE. smooth, no irritation, bbs, but mild enough for daily. but then i tried it with only 1 shim and now its even better. digs almost as deep imo. result is the same. but with even less irritation. 

i also ran it for a few shaves without shims and its still good. better than the asd2 without shims. if the asd2 is 1 mild then this one is a 3. you can get a bbs out of it, but it wont last as long as when you shim it. maybe half the duration. 

unshimmed the asd2 is a .70- .80mm or so gap, and negative exposure. but with 2 shims its a 1.x something and slightly positive exposure. just enough imo. the head shape and geometry still keeps it mild.

the bbs oc is positive exposure from the start. but i guess quite low gap. but it has a weird curved shape so i dont know if its really comparable. with 1 or 2 spacers its a lot more positive exposure. *looks* almost like a r41 now. but it shaves nothing like the harsh and ultra aggro r41. also the gap increases by about 0,2mm. i found 2 shims too be good but 1 better since it feels milder and smoother but provides almost the same result. and you can whip it around more carelessly. you can shave faster.


----------



## inferno

BillHanna said:


> I've figured out blade gap and exposure are and are not important, but I've decided to play around and make a bunch of purchases of things I can sell, or don't mind sitting around. I'm just gonna use gap/exposure as a jumping off point, and have seven day trials.
> 
> I have a used Karve CB in the mail with a solid B plate, and the cheapo head from WCS coming with some handles from their sale.
> 
> As far as shims; just dull down a blade? Use a washer?



i'm guessing the B will be too mild for you. unfortunately. most people that buy the b/c ones end up with the d/e ones. and they really wanted a mild one.


''''''''''''''''''

i just put a worn out blade one a coarse stone. grind off the whole bevel. then round it off so its not 90 deg sharp. takes about 5 minutes per blade or so. 

protip. dull both sides first with some heavy cuts into a stone so you dont cut yourself when removing the bevel. 
i think i remove about 0,5mm from each side. 

dont remove more than the bevel imo. the wider the shim is the more it will stabilize you primary blade. 

'''''''''''''''''''

i was against using shims before. well up to maybe 2 months ago. i tried it just to try it. but now i found out that i really like some head designs, but i want them just a bit more aggro. and this will provide just that. and i mean the manufacturers usually dont provide this. the is no asd2 B version... so you have to make it yourself. 

the bbs oc i bought just because it looks cool. and i knew it was mild to begin with so i knew i could use it as a base for shims. this is now my fav all over.

and also: so what if you have to fiddle around with the shims. you only have to do it once a week. and you lose, what, an extra 30 seconds fiddling around with them. 
this is a cheap way of getting what you really want imo. for me it has worked out well. and it will for you too. 

i wish i could just email feather and tell them hey can you make me a 0,25mm higher gapped asd2. and rr and have them make me 0,125 mm higher gapped bbs oc. but lets face it. its not gonna happen. 

2 blades are usually 0,25mm, 0,125mm each. some are thinner like nacets. i guess these are 0,1mm. room for experimentation here.


----------



## inferno

edit: this was a bad and costly idea


----------



## Tapio

what can you tell about this Gillette? How old it is? Is it any good for shaving?


----------



## blokey

Anyone have experience with the razor sold by Watanabe? Seems like made by bunch of different black smiths.




__





Japanese razor | Wa kamisori handmade from some makers


Japanese hand forged razor. Try hair cut. Very sharp edge sharpened by natural water stones.




www.kitchen-knife.jp


----------



## Rangen

blokey said:


> Anyone have experience with the razor sold by Watanabe? Seems like made by bunch of different black smiths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Japanese razor | Wa kamisori handmade from some makers
> 
> 
> Japanese hand forged razor. Try hair cut. Very sharp edge sharpened by natural water stones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchen-knife.jp


I have two razors matching the description. Stamped "New Azuma" and "Yazuki steel." They are very good razors that take an excellent edge, worth your time. I didn't pay that much for them, but mine were used, and his are NOS, so the price seems reasonable.


----------



## Desert Rat

blokey said:


> Anyone have experience with the razor sold by Watanabe? Seems like made by bunch of different black smiths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Japanese razor | Wa kamisori handmade from some makers
> 
> 
> Japanese hand forged razor. Try hair cut. Very sharp edge sharpened by natural water stones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchen-knife.jp


That one looks pretty good with out a lot of hone wear on the omote or back side. That is pretty much what I look for. I stay away from the ones that have been roughly reground or the omote wiped out.
Of the handful of vintage I have everyone of them are excellent.


----------



## alex1921

That Azuma is absolutely not NOS. It's well used. Price is high as well. You can get a NOS one in an auction for less. 
It's a good brand, good steel.


----------



## KO88

My friend is in NY and he is on the edge of falling into a razor rabbit hole… where should I send him?
I think some nice soaps etc. might help.
Also any barbershop what would you recommend?
(for now, he is into razors like inferno talking about and he has no brush or nice soap)


----------



## stringer

KO88 said:


> My friend is in NY and he is on the edge of falling into a razor rabbit hole… where should I send him?
> I think some nice soaps etc. might help.
> Also any barbershop what would you recommend?
> (for now, he is into razors like inferno talking about and he has no brush or nice soap)


Soap is very personal with the scent but a nice brush maybe with a big shaving bowl would be a great gift for someone starting out. It will be useful whether they stick with safety razors or get into straights


----------



## BillHanna

KO88 said:


> My friend is in NY and he is on the edge of falling into a razor rabbit hole… where should I send him?
> I think some nice soaps etc. might help.
> Also any barbershop what would you recommend?
> (for now, he is into razors like inferno talking about and he has no brush or nice soap)


This place is midtown and LES


----------



## cotedupy

These two unusual profile Bengalls, complete with a pretty smart case, popped up on FB Marketplace the other day for not a huge amount of $.

Just received them and I’m rather pleased - they’re in very good condition and shouldn’t take long to get to working order. The second, horn-scaled, one is particularly nice I think.


----------



## Grayswandir

cotedupy said:


> These two unusual profile Bengalls, complete with a pretty smart case, popped up on FB Marketplace the other day for not a huge amount of $.
> 
> Just received them and I’m rather pleased - they’re in very good condition and shouldn’t take long to get to working order. The second, horn-scaled, one is particularly nice I think.
> 
> View attachment 186519
> 
> 
> View attachment 186521
> 
> 
> View attachment 186522
> 
> 
> View attachment 186523
> 
> 
> View attachment 186520


Very nice score! I've never seen a shoulder shaped like that before.


----------



## cotedupy

Grayswandir said:


> Very nice score! I've never seen a shoulder shaped like that before.




You mean the weird kinda growth at the heel on the first one? Yeah - I hadn't seen that before either, but a friend on B&B then sent a pic of a couple he has like that too. Dunno what it's for though!


----------



## Grayswandir

Yeah, it's definitely different. I've never seen one like that before. How much did they cost you?


----------



## cotedupy

Grayswandir said:


> Yeah, it's definitely different. I've never seen one like that before. How much did they cost you?



$80 Aud (55 USD) for the pair, which ain't too bad I don't think .

Bengalls are really excellent razors, but relatively common here in Aus compared to a lot of places it seems, so you can often find them quite cheaply. I think I've got five now, and those two were the most expensive.


----------



## Grayswandir

cotedupy said:


> $80 Aud (55 USD) for the pair, which ain't too bad I don't think .
> 
> Bengalls are really excellent razors, but relatively common here in Aus compared to a lot of places it seems, so you can often find them quite cheaply. I think I've got five now, and those two were the most expensive.


Yeah man, that's an excellent price, especially for the size of the razors.


----------



## stringer

cotedupy said:


> You mean the weird kinda growth at the heel on the first one? Yeah - I hadn't seen that before either, but a friend on B&B then sent a pic of a couple he has like that too. Dunno what it's for though!


There is a b&b thread about this particular razor. Don't know if you saw it 








Straight Razor Chronicle - Volume 4 - Ward Bros. Melbourne


I will not kill all the work on this but be aware that the 'Ward Bros.' in this post is not the same Ward Bros that made the razor. The correct Ward Bros is in post #11. This research is long overdue. I was given this straight razor by johnmrson in exchange of doing the research. I...




www.badgerandblade.com


----------



## cotedupy

Grayswandir said:


> Yeah man, that's an excellent price, especially for the size of the razors.



They're both a kind of generous 6/8, rather than being very big. I do have a 7/8 Bengall, and a little 5/8 too. 




stringer said:


> There is a b&b thread about this particular razor. Don't know if you saw it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Straight Razor Chronicle - Volume 4 - Ward Bros. Melbourne
> 
> 
> I will not kill all the work on this but be aware that the 'Ward Bros.' in this post is not the same Ward Bros that made the razor. The correct Ward Bros is in post #11. This research is long overdue. I was given this straight razor by johnmrson in exchange of doing the research. I...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.badgerandblade.com



Ta! I did actually stumble across that after I bought them and was doing some research. Looks like the heel bump remains a bit of a mystery, apart from apparently it's going to make it annoying to hone. Perhaps why the style didn't catch on!


----------



## Legion74

cotedupy said:


> You mean the weird kinda growth at the heel on the first one? Yeah - I hadn't seen that before either, but a friend on B&B then sent a pic of a couple he has like that too. Dunno what it's for though!


Just decoration and style, more than any practical purpose, as far as I know. Like fins on an old Cadillac.


----------



## Legion74

Tapio said:


> what can you tell about this Gillette? How old it is? Is it any good for shaving?
> View attachment 184453


Looks like a 20’s ball end, old type. The case is kind of interesting. Can I get a few more shots of the box?


----------



## M222

Hi folks
I was given this razor and started tryin to clean it up a bit. Thinking about using it but it's an heirloom so I don't want to trash it tryin to 'restore' it. I've watched vids and read about straights still got some learning to do. There's a small spot, pitting/rust, that I'm not sure about. Don't know. Just 'flitzing' it for now. 
So anything you folks can tell me would be helpful...TIA


----------



## stringer

M222 said:


> Hi folks
> I was given this razor and started tryin to clean it up a bit. Thinking about using it but it's an heirloom so I don't want to trash it tryin to 'restore' it. I've watched vids and read about straights still got some learning to do. There's a small spot, pitting/rust, that I'm not sure about. Don't know. Just 'flitzing' it for now.
> So anything you folks can tell me would be helpful...TIA



Looks to be from around 1900-1920. Tidioute was a very famous cutlery capital from the 1890s-1930s. I think that the Tidioute Cutlery Co. became Ka-bar and moved to Olean, NY. 





__





Tidioute Cutlery Companies – iKnife Collector






iknifecollector.com


----------



## stringer

stringer said:


> Looks to be from around 1900-1920. Tidioute was a very famous cutlery capital from the 1890s-1930s. I think that the Tidioute Cutlery Co. became Ka-bar and moved to Olean, NY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tidioute Cutlery Companies – iKnife Collector
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iknifecollector.com


I wouldn't clean it up much. Just hone it and use it.


----------



## M222

Cool @stringer ! Still some rust I'm going to get rid of and need to peen it a bit more to tighten it up but yeah, gonna give it a try. I have a long beard and just trim around the edges. I looked at some of the info about Tidioute and that's really cool stuff, thanks.
Another journey into shhhharp objects !
One more question...I have all types of hones, Arks (I think one of all of them at least), Coticules, Thuringian, Jnats, just leather strops (several) some with green CrO and clean, mostly used for chisels , plane blades, carving tools and of couse knives. If there's a good thread for beginners maybe someone can point me to- or suggestions maybe ? 
Thanks


----------



## stringer

M222 said:


> Cool @stringer ! Still some rust I'm going to get rid of and need to peen it a bit more to tighten it up but yeah, gonna give it a try. I have a long beard and just trim around the edges. I looked at some of the info about Tidioute and that's really cool stuff, thanks.
> Another journey into shhhharp objects !
> One more question...I have all types of hones, Arks (I think one of all of them at least), Coticules, Thuringian, Jnats, just leather strops (several) some with green CrO and clean, mostly used for chisels , plane blades, carving tools and of couse knives. If there's a good thread for beginners maybe someone can point me to- or suggestions maybe ?
> Thanks


Not really on here. Badgerandblade.com is a more razor centric forum. 

I have some videos on my YouTube but not a whole lot of explanation.



https://m.youtube.com/user/garfilo1



Bevel set

Honing 

Stropping

Shaving


----------



## M222

I have a look over at B&B... thanks for the help !!


----------



## cotedupy

M222 said:


> Hi folks
> I was given this razor and started tryin to clean it up a bit. Thinking about using it but it's an heirloom so I don't want to trash it tryin to 'restore' it. I've watched vids and read about straights still got some learning to do. There's a small spot, pitting/rust, that I'm not sure about. Don't know. Just 'flitzing' it for now.
> So anything you folks can tell me would be helpful...TIA




Nice!

I like the triangle box Nortons too. Between the LW and the Hard Ark you'll be able to take that razor all the way through to working very well indeed.


----------



## stringer

M222 said:


> Cool @stringer ! Still some rust I'm going to get rid of and need to peen it a bit more to tighten it up but yeah, gonna give it a try. I have a long beard and just trim around the edges. I looked at some of the info about Tidioute and that's really cool stuff, thanks.
> Another journey into shhhharp objects !
> One more question...I have all types of hones, Arks (I think one of all of them at least), Coticules, Thuringian, Jnats, just leather strops (several) some with green CrO and clean, mostly used for chisels , plane blades, carving tools and of couse knives. If there's a good thread for beginners maybe someone can point me to- or suggestions maybe ?
> Thanks





Here's one I've been meaning to upload. I usually wear a beard too. Straight razor is perfect for maintenance.


----------



## Tapio

I’ve been looking for an inexpensive travel DE razor that shaves well my face and head. Shaving my head without any cuts has been rather challenging. Today I got a bunch of old Gillettes had my best shave so far. That white Slim Twist has the perfect blend of aggressiveness and safety for my head. It also came with a hard case.

Those Swedish straight razors came together with the Gillettes. I really like how the the etched straight razor looks. Unfortunately it has all that damage.


----------



## inferno

DE's are not very good for head shaving imo. i usually do the heavy lifting with them if i have a week or 2 on my head.
my favorite is the gamechanger jaws .84. its uncloggable. but you still need to scrub for it to work.

and then when thats done i use a disposable. because its like 10 times faster than a DE on the head.

i remember using a straight on my head about 10 years ago and even that was better than a DE.


----------



## BillHanna

I use the Leaf aka Bourgeois Cartridge, so I just break my Voskhods in half.


----------



## Tapio

inferno said:


> DE's are not very good for head shaving imo. i usually do the heavy lifting with them if i have a week or 2 on my head.
> my favorite is the gamechanger jaws .84. its uncloggable. but you still need to scrub for it to work.
> 
> and then when thats done i use a disposable. because its like 10 times faster than a DE on the head.
> 
> i remember using a straight on my head about 10 years ago and even that was better than a DE.


I've been shaving my head with modern multiblade cartridge razors for 20+ years. The last few weeks I've been testing different DE razors. Now I'm already quite happy with Slim Twist DE. Shaving my head with it takes a bit more time and I need to be ten times more aware of things but the results are good. When travelling, multiple razors is not an option.


----------



## inferno

i've had good luck with the cheap 1€ 3 blades. they last for 2 shaves.


----------



## Tapio

inferno said:


> i've had good luck with the cheap 1€ 3 blades. they last for 2 shaves.


My weaponh has been chosen for the next 20+ years


----------



## Rangen

Tapio said:


> My weaponh has been chosen for the next 20+ years


If they are Perma-Sharp, why do you need more than one blade?


----------



## BillHanna

Tapio said:


> My weaponh has been chosen for the next 20+ years


I’m team Voskhod


----------



## stringer

I was bored and trying to take the day off from work so I picked out a straight razor to mess around with from my eBay pile. I honed it, stropped it, and shaved with it. If anyone is interested. I did it in real-time to kind of demystify the process a little. It isn't rocket science. I showed how I fix a protruding heel. The b&b guys would probably have a heart attack. But it works for me. 

The razor is a Simmons Hardware Store branded 6/8 German make from 1885-1895 I would say. One of my all time my favorite time period/region combos. Wide razors that are extra hollow ground. About the only thing that tops this for me is mid Century Japanese razors. Which are very similarly ground to these razors except (just a tad less hollow on average) with better harder steel. This one was rescaled at some point with some homemade wooden scales that are pinned with a brass nail or screw or something. I really like this razor and will probably make it my daily driver for a few months.

My progression is Shapton Pro 1500, coticule, Escher Thuringian

Honing


Stropping


Shaving


----------



## BillHanna

If you don't do it the way my grandpappy did it, did you really do it?


----------



## inferno

Tapio said:


> My weaponh has been chosen for the next 20+ years


for me these are about a 7-8. like the personnas much better. and i prefer the personnas over all the expensive gillettes too. 

you can get the personnas cheap at sliqhaq.se at 1,5-2skr a blade or so in the 50 packs.


----------



## Legion74

inferno said:


> for me these are about a 7-8. like the personnas much better. and i prefer the personnas over all the expensive gillettes too.
> 
> you can get the personnas cheap at sliqhaq.se at 1,5-2skr a blade or so in the 50 packs.


The Israeli red Personna were always my go to DE blade.


----------



## inferno

the state of collection. so basically where i'm at right now is that i've done all the blades on paper up to 1500. 
and then i put them all in a jar for the next step. but while i was waiting they started rusting. 
no ****. 

so i dunked them all in oxalic acid (they all turned black), then neutralized in NaOH (they all turned orange/rusty) then soaked in oil. until further action. i think i'm gonna finish them one by one. and put handles on one by one too. 

here is my high dollar box. all exotics. and the most exotic ones are the ones in the lower pic. 
humpback w&b
humpback fred reynolds
humpback george wostenholm 

ct bingham - tally ho
ct bingham/fenney- tally ho (both of these have 100% perfect fox/tally ho stampings)

reynolds 7/8

w&b 19mm FBU full hollow. 

------------------

all of these were run to **** basically, deep pitting etc etc. and its a ****ing nightmare to even do 1 of these. 
but i have 25 of them. but i did it. i actually did all of them good. 

so whats left now is high grit, low speed buffer wheel to polish and then hand polish with flitz. 
then i have to make handles. 

a few of that i own i have no plan whatsoever to sell. like all the 3 humpbacks. maybe if i find a better stamped wostenholm but thats it. these are as good as they will ever get. and i want to enjoy them.

i have ground profiles and grinds like a MFer since all of these had flat spots/frowns/rust etc etc. all with sandpaper and my thumb basically. most of it at least.


-----------------------

thinking these will shave good. hope so. sure i dont really_ need_ 50 of them, but its nice to have. i need at least 15 of them imo. and i think its in the UN basic human rights laws that we all need to own at least 15 of them, and its a basic human right. quite sure of that. 

yeah btw that red/orange/brown tinge from the last pic. it does not exist. they are all black/gray. but my camera seems to think the white balance is something else somehow. and compensates accordingly.


----------



## inferno

Legion74 said:


> The Israeli red Personna were always my go to DE blade.


the israeli is now made in germany. exactly the same stuff. and these are cheap. 1,50-2€ for a 10 pack or so. i have 200-300 of them. gonna last the rest of my life most likely. and i have about 50 years left.


----------



## Legion74

inferno said:


> the israeli is now made in germany. exactly the same stuff. and these are cheap. 1,50-2€ for a 10 pack or so. i have 200-300 of them. gonna last the rest of my life most likely. and i have about 50 years left.


I only use a safety razor about once every two months, so I think my stash will outlast me as well. And I have enough straights and hones to last a hundred lifetimes.


----------



## Tapio

Rangen said:


> If they are Perma-Sharp, why do you need more than one blade?


You have to have few spares, just in case, you lose your old trusty blade. I just wanted to play safe and got 1000 spares.


----------



## Tapio

inferno said:


> for me these are about a 7-8. like the personnas much better. and i prefer the personnas over all the expensive gillettes too.
> 
> you can get the personnas cheap at sliqhaq.se at 1,5-2skr a blade or so in the 50 packs.



Would you care to elaborate on that? I would like to hear how those blades differ.

I paid about 87 öre a blade.


----------



## simona

YG420 said:


> And this one is a fun one, a Takami 76mm rentetsu white 1 kamisori. Sharp af, shaves smooth as butter, and the f&f is probably the best ive ever come across in a razor. Came with a super slight frown that had to be corrected and it was scratching my strop for some reason. Come to find out the razor was probably made too precise and straight so i had to ease some of the corners on the ura side spine and now its perfect. A really fun razor!
> View attachment 176099
> 
> View attachment 176100
> 
> View attachment 176101


That is gorgeous.!!


----------



## simona

stringer said:


> I was bored and trying to take the day off from work so I picked out a straight razor to mess around with from my eBay pile. I honed it, stropped it, and shaved with it. If anyone is interested. I did it in real-time to kind of demystify the process a little. It isn't rocket science. I showed how I fix a protruding heel. The b&b guys would probably have a heart attack. But it works for me.
> 
> The razor is a Simmons Hardware Store branded 6/8 German make from 1885-1895 I would say. One of my all time my favorite time period/region combos. Wide razors that are extra hollow ground. About the only thing that tops this for me is mid Century Japanese razors. Which are very similarly ground to these razors except (just a tad less hollow on average) with better harder steel. This one was rescaled at some point with some homemade wooden scales that are pinned with a brass nail or screw or something. I really like this razor and will probably make it my daily driver for a few months.
> 
> My progression is Shapton Pro 1500, coticule, Escher Thuringian
> 
> Honing
> 
> 
> Stropping
> 
> 
> Shaving



B&B guys? Help me out...thanks.


----------



## BillHanna

simona said:


> B&B guys? Help me out...thanks.


Badger and blade dot com


----------



## simona

BillHanna said:


> Badger and blade dot com


Thanks.


----------



## inferno

Tapio said:


> Would you care to elaborate on that? I would like to hear how those blades differ.
> 
> I paid about 87 öre a blade.



i mean some blades are sharp. but not reallty smooth. easy to cut yourself etc.

the personnas seens to be a good compromise. i run personnas in all my razors right now. to really test them out. and i like what i feel.

for example the gillette blues always feel very sharp, and very irritating too. maybe they are too sharp?

the best shaves i've had has been with the personnas. smooth and and sharp somehow. i very seldom cut myself with these. but with gillettes i always do.
i mean gillettes are the best for some people, and for some they are not.

i think i've tried about 15 blades before i switched over to all personna. in all my razors. not really complaining here after that choice. your face might be different.

when i used up all the personnas i'm gonna try something else in all my razors. my philosophy is to run the same blade in all of them so i really get to know them.


----------



## cotedupy

inferno said:


> the state of collection. so basically where i'm at right now is that i've done all the blades on paper up to 1500.
> and then i put them all in a jar for the next step. but while i was waiting they started rusting.
> no ****.
> 
> so i dunked them all in oxalic acid (they all turned black), then neutralized in NaOH (they all turned orange/rusty) then soaked in oil. until further action. i think i'm gonna finish them one by one. and put handles on one by one too.
> 
> here is my high dollar box. all exotics. and the most exotic ones are the ones in the lower pic.
> humpback w&b
> humpback fred reynolds
> humpback george wostenholm
> 
> ct bingham - tally ho
> ct bingham/fenney- tally ho (both of these have 100% perfect fox/tally ho stampings)
> 
> reynolds 7/8
> 
> w&b 19mm FBU full hollow.
> 
> ------------------
> 
> all of these were run to **** basically, deep pitting etc etc. and its a ****ing nightmare to even do 1 of these.
> but i have 25 of them. but i did it. i actually did all of them good.
> 
> so whats left now is high grit, low speed buffer wheel to polish and then hand polish with flitz.
> then i have to make handles.
> 
> a few of that i own i have no plan whatsoever to sell. like all the 3 humpbacks. maybe if i find a better stamped wostenholm but thats it. these are as good as they will ever get. and i want to enjoy them.
> 
> i have ground profiles and grinds like a MFer since all of these had flat spots/frowns/rust etc etc. all with sandpaper and my thumb basically. most of it at least.
> 
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> thinking these will shave good. hope so. sure i dont really_ need_ 50 of them, but its nice to have. i need at least 15 of them imo. and i think its in the UN basic human rights laws that we all need to own at least 15 of them, and its a basic human right. quite sure of that.
> 
> yeah btw that red/orange/brown tinge from the last pic. it does not exist. they are all black/gray. but my camera seems to think the white balance is something else somehow. and compensates accordingly.
> 
> View attachment 204295
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 204296




What are your favourite finishing stones for straights? I know you have a few cotis and high grit synths which I assume you might use. Any other things you like...?


----------



## inferno

cotedupy said:


> What are your favourite finishing stones for straights? I know you have a few cotis and high grit synths which I assume you might use. Any other things you like...?


i basically only use 2 these days. 
shapton pro 12k. and
gokumyo 20k. 

the shapton is very fast and gets sharp enough. i usually just splash water on my face 2 times and then lather up for about 1 min, then shave. and the shapton can handle that. 

the gok is one step above this in sharpness. just a tiny bit slower. i feel its a bit harsher too. its basically "scary sharp" so you have to be careful.

other stones that will work but i dont use any more: 
naniwa ss12k. very sharp results. this is a very good razor stone. it clogs more than the shapton.
karasu 9k. this one works too. about the same results as the 12k shapton. but its not truly splash and go.
morihei 12k. this one is quite muddy so you need to keep it clean. not a fan.

my cotis dont work somehow. too dull. new production ones.
i do have a suita from atagoyama i think (check the jnat thread). that one actually works. maybe half a step below the shapton in sharpness.


----------



## inferno

cotedupy said:


> What are your favourite finishing stones for straights? I know you have a few cotis and high grit synths which I assume you might use. Any other things you like...?


whats your fave??

for me the cotis dont work somehow. even though they should. its just too dull somehow. 
i need one step above this. (12k shapton) or 2 steps above (gok 20k). 

BUT i also just splash some water on my face and go to work. ymmv.


----------



## cotedupy

inferno said:


> whats your fave??
> 
> for me the cotis dont work somehow. even though they should. its just too dull somehow.
> i need one step above this. (12k shapton) or 2 steps above (gok 20k).
> 
> BUT i also just splash some water on my face and go to work. ymmv.



Ah yeah, the Gokumyo 20k does seem to be something of a gold standard in the razor world. Lots of people seem to rate it very highly.

I haven't tried myself though, and in fact very high grit, razor finishing type synths are something I have almost no experience of. So I can't really say how any of the following might compare, but here are some things I like FWIW, most would finish between 12-15k equivalent I guess:

Thuris - I'm not sure I'd even heard of these before I started using straights, but I must say I do get the hype. Very good results, very easy to use.

Charnleys / Idwals - These two are broadly comparable to each other. Though Idwals have a bit more variation and some stones are coarser; most Charns are good finishers, maybe about 50% of Idwals.

Water of Ayr - Of all the stones I know, WoA are the ones that are most like Thuris. Lovely, high grit finishes and very easy to use.

Cotis - I've heard from a few people that the 'Standard' level from Ardennes Coticule aren't particularly great, though I've only ever had older stones myself. I still use them mostly for knives, but I'd say about half have worked well for razor finishing, with about half of those (i.e. 25%) very good for it.

Then there are various other slate-like things like the Nantlle Valley Stone or Salmen Silkstone which I like a lot too, and can often be found very cheaply. Though they tend to be quite slow, and sometimes take a little bit of time to understand how to get the best from them. And I have a couple of jnats too which are good. The only highly regarded razor stones that I still haven't got my head round or fully mastered yet are translucent / black arks. 

---

Give a shout if ever you want to try any naturals and I can keep an eye out (you're in Europe, right?). I'm always up for swapping for another stone or razor or something...


----------



## Desert Rat

cotedupy said:


> Ah yeah, the Gokumyo 20k does seem to be something of a gold standard in the razor world. Lots of people seem to rate it very highly.
> 
> I haven't tried myself though, and in fact very high grit, razor finishing type synths are something I have almost no experience of. So I can't really say how any of the following might compare, but here are some things I like FWIW, most would finish between 12-15k equivalent I guess:
> 
> Thuris - I'm not sure I'd even heard of these before I started using straights, but I must say I do get the hype. Very good results, very easy to use.
> 
> Charnleys / Idwals - These two are broadly comparable to each other. Though Idwals have a bit more variation and some stones are coarser; most Charns are good finishers, maybe about 50% of Idwals.
> 
> Water of Ayr - Of all the stones I know, WoA are the ones that are most like Thuris. Lovely, high grit finishes and very easy to use.
> 
> Cotis - I've heard from a few people that the 'Standard' level from Ardennes Coticule aren't particularly great, though I've only ever had older stones myself. I still use them mostly for knives, but I'd say about half have worked well for razor finishing, with about half of those (i.e. 25%) very good for it.
> 
> Then there are various other slate-like things like the Nantlle Valley Stone or Salmen Silkstone which I like a lot too, and can often be found very cheaply. Though they tend to be quite slow, and sometimes take a little bit of time to understand how to get the best from them. And I have a couple of jnats too which are good. The only highly regarded razor stones that I still haven't got my head round or fully mastered yet are translucent / black arks.
> 
> ---
> 
> Give a shout if ever you want to try any naturals and I can keep an eye out (you're in Europe, right?). I'm always up for swapping for another stone or razor or something...


 Have you tried the arks with a heavy grind razor, like the old Sheffield's? Arks like pressure which can be problematic with full hollows. To little pressure and it's really slow going or not going anywhere which is why I think most folks use arks more like a post finisher. 

I also have a couple or Kamisori that arks struggle with. Might just be that they cut the mild steel faster than the forge welded steel I don't know, but it's no bueno.


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## Rangen

Desert Rat said:


> Have you tried the arks with a heavy grind razor, like the old Sheffield's? Arks like pressure which can be problematic with full hollows. To little pressure and it's really slow going or not going anywhere which is why I think most folks use arks more like a post finisher.
> 
> I also have a couple or Kamisori that arks struggle with. Might just be that they cut the mild steel faster than the forge welded steel I don't know, but it's no bueno.


Right, I use my hard arks as a post finisher only, with very light pressure. They are brilliant at that, including with my kamisoris. The edge you get is amazing, trading off a bit of comfort for a lot of keenness.


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## cotedupy

Desert Rat said:


> Have you tried the arks with a heavy grind razor, like the old Sheffield's? Arks like pressure which can be problematic with full hollows. To little pressure and it's really slow going or not going anywhere which is why I think most folks use arks more like a post finisher.
> 
> I also have a couple or Kamisori that arks struggle with. Might just be that they cut the mild steel faster than the forge welded steel I don't know, but it's no bueno.




That's a good point, I'd not really thought about that. I've got quite a few thicker grind razors, so next time I need to hone one I'll chuck it on an ark and see if does better than full hollows do.


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## Desert Rat

Rangen said:


> Right, I use my hard arks as a post finisher only, with very light pressure. They are brilliant at that, including with my kamisoris. The edge you get is amazing, trading off a bit of comfort for a lot of keenness.


I have pretty good luck using jasper or petrified wood like that. They are probably my sharpest edges and for me comfortable as well.
Them edges are so unforgiving to shave with though and I'm kind of sloppy and in a hurry half the time.


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## stringer

Desert Rat said:


> I have pretty good luck using jasper or petrified wood like that. They are probably my sharpest edges and for me comfortable as well.
> Them edges are so unforgiving to shave with though and I'm kind of sloppy and in a hurry half the time.


My jasper is the same way. I dread the first shave because I have to be so careful not to scalp my Adams apple for the 300th time. It mellows out after a few shaves. My surgical Black and Thuringian are better at being comfy right from the get-go.


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## Desert Rat

stringer said:


> My jasper is the same way. I dread the first shave because I have to be so careful not to scalp my Adams apple for the 300th time. It mellows out after a few shaves. My surgical Black and Thuringian are better at being comfy right from the get-go.


I had given up on those stones several times but kept going back out of stubbornness. If they don't crash the edge they are good to go.


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## BillHanna

Hey y’all. A Toyota Corolla straight razor, that I could find on yabe for less than 100USD. 

What do you suggest? Orrrrrr…. What can be shaken loose from your box o goodies?


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## M1k3

BillHanna said:


> Hey y’all. A Toyota Corolla straight razor, that I could find on yabe for less than 100USD.
> 
> What do you suggest? Orrrrrr…. What can be shaken loose from your box o goodies?


@stringer


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## Rangen

BillHanna said:


> Hey y’all. A Toyota Corolla straight razor, that I could find on yabe for less than 100USD.
> 
> What do you suggest? Orrrrrr…. What can be shaken loose from your box o goodies?


The question always is: can you restore the razor, and are you comfortable judging from the pictures whether you can restore the razor?

If so, I think Wade and Butcher is a good answer to this question. Solid shavers, plenty of them available at good prices.

As for my box o goodies, I once got in trouble here for saying I had something available on a non-BST thread, so...maybe make a WTB on the BST?


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## M1k3

Rangen said:


> The question always is: can you restore the razor, and are you comfortable judging from the pictures whether you can restore the razor?
> 
> If so, I think Wade and Butcher is a good answer to this question. Solid shavers, plenty of them available at good prices.
> 
> As for my box o goodies, I once got in trouble here for saying I had something available on a non-BST thread, so...maybe make a WTB on the BST?


Messages work also to keep from being in BST jail.


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## gc0220

I’ve got some but I'm not a fan of DEs. If you need to quicky take down some heavy growth, then they are or can be fine. Otherwise lets be real any decent modern cart runs circles around these things in every objective measurement. I've been using a straight razor lately and I find it quite enjoyable. Got myself a 6/8 theirs half hollow waiting in my mailbox that I need to go grab. I'm excited to try that that. Welp. I grabber er. I love it already. Now I need to get some better scales to put on this thing.


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## stringer

BillHanna said:


> Hey y’all. A Toyota Corolla straight razor, that I could find on yabe for less than 100USD.
> 
> What do you suggest? Orrrrrr…. What can be shaken loose from your box o goodies?


I can hook you up. I have a few hundred extra ones.


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## cotedupy

BillHanna said:


> Hey y’all. A Toyota Corolla straight razor, that I could find on yabe for less than 100USD.
> 
> What do you suggest? Orrrrrr…. What can be shaken loose from your box o goodies?




I was gonna say - for $100 you'll be able to get a really quite good vintage razor and to ping Stringer a message, but I see that's already been covered. 

Will this be your first straight B...?


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## BillHanna

cotedupy said:


> I was gonna say - for $100 you'll be able to get a really quite good vintage razor and to ping Stringer a message, but I see that's already been covered.
> 
> Will this be your first straight B...?


Yup. I’m keeping it strictly vintage. I wanna be @stringer when I grow up.


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## cotedupy

BillHanna said:


> Yup. I’m keeping it strictly vintage. I wanna be @stringer when I grow up.




Ah nice! Yeah - most vintage straights are very good indeed when properly honed up. Which isn't necessarily as difficult as some people like to make out, but does take a little while to get a feel for. And it's generally a good idea to get your first razor from someone who knows how to do it properly so you have something to aim for in the future.

---

Here are a couple of old Sheffields I picked up very cheaply recently, both of which are great now I've cleaned them up a bit.

Ivory Stewart Dawson. This was actually part of a 7 day set of which there were three left. The other two are both beyond repair (or at least my inclination to try) so I'll just save the scales from them to put on other razors:







Horn Thomas Turner:


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