# Demi glace (First Time)



## Evilsports (Mar 14, 2017)

Hi guys,

I have a 24 quart pot on my stove at home right now and it's simmering 10lbs of beef bones and oxtail, as well as some coarse carrots, onions, and celery. My recipe called for veal bones, on account of the higher collagen content of them, but I was unable to procure any so I used what I could find.

Question is, when I reduce it could I add a bit of gelatin to replace any potentially missing collagen from the veal bones?

I want it to turn to jelly once cooled so I can slice it into cubes to freeze.

Any potential downside to augmenting the natural gelatin?

Thanks,
Kevin.


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## mise_en_place (Mar 14, 2017)

A lot of commercial gelatin is not kosher, so there's one potential "downside." 

If this isn't a concern, then the only other thing to worry about is some packaged gelatin has an unpleasant bitter flavor. Use a good brand that you are familiar with.

Other than that, there's no "real" problem. You're not going to ruin it or anything like that.


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## Jovidah (Mar 14, 2017)

If it's only about making jelly I don't think you need to add anything. With enough time, I've even made jelly off chicken bones.


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## Sleep (Mar 14, 2017)

Are you making traditional demi glace (from espagnole) or a jus?

For jus it'll be fine as is. Just reduce it. We get about 10L from 30kg beef bones plus remi. It's like a car tyre when set.

I've only seen real demi glace made a couple of times. Lots of work.


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## Evilsports (Mar 15, 2017)

Sleep said:


> Are you making traditional demi glace (from espagnole) or a jus?
> 
> For jus it'll be fine as is. Just reduce it. We get about 10L from 30kg beef bones plus remi. It's like a car tyre when set.
> 
> I've only seen real demi glace made a couple of times. Lots of work.



To be honest, I'm not sure Sleep. This is my first time trying to make it and I'd never really heard of it prior to this. (I'm not a cook).

I took pics, I'll post my process.


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## Evilsports (Mar 15, 2017)

Put beef bones and oxtail as well as mirepoix coated in tomato paste into the oven at 450, cooked both until browned.


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## Evilsports (Mar 15, 2017)

Put it all in a 24 quart pot with 10 quarts of cold water and deglazed the bone pan.











Simmered slowly for 20 hours and then removed and strained the bulk of the solids.


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## Evilsports (Mar 15, 2017)

Reduced the liquid down to ~3 quarts, put it in an ice bath and skimmed the fat.


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## Evilsports (Mar 15, 2017)

Put the remaining liquid through a fine sieve and into containers and it's in my fridge now, hoping I will have two blocks of demi glace in the morning in gel form.











If it works I'll scrape the remaining fat off in the morning, cut it into portion sized cubes, wrap each cube in plastic wrap and freeze them all together in a ziploc bag.

I decided to forgo the bouquet garni and any seasoning. I'm hoping to use the demi glace as a base for a few different sauces that I want to try making and will season it when I make the other sauces.


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## guari (Mar 15, 2017)

Good stuff


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## mille162 (Mar 15, 2017)

Getting hungry just looking at this thread!


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## Evilsports (Mar 15, 2017)

Follow up, it set up nicely and seemed to work out. Next step, try some sauces...


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## valgard (Mar 15, 2017)

Great, seems to have worked nicely.


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## DaveInMesa (Mar 16, 2017)

Late to the party, again, but.... if this is going to become a regular occurrence, I recommend looking for a silicone muffin/cupcake "pan". (Can anything made of silicone really be a pan? I don't think so.) Freezing stocks and glaces is the one-and-only legitimate use I've found for them. Saves having to cut and wrap the blocks. Just freeze the whole tray after it's set, then pop them out, and stick them in a ziplock freezer bag. Freezing them keeps them from sticking together, and you can just plunk one into your sauce without worrying about unwrapping it.


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## ChefJimbo (Mar 16, 2017)

I may be a purist, but, this is radically reduced beef stock, not Demi-Glace


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## guari (Mar 16, 2017)

ChefJimbo said:


> I may be a purist, but, this is radically reduced beef stock, not Demi-Glace



What sets them apart? curios & would love to learn


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## ChefJimbo (Mar 16, 2017)

Basically, and as i said I am a purist, what the OP made is "Glace de Viande"

Demi Glace is half brown sauce(Espagnole)half brown stock(made with Veal bones) reduced by half.

In recent years any pan reduction was being called demi glace, which traditionally is not the case.

Espagnole Sauce is mirepoix saute until brown, add flour and cook roux until med/dark brown add veal stock etc,etc


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## skewed (Mar 16, 2017)

ChefJimbo said:


> Basically, and as i said I am a purist, what the OP made is "Glace de Viande"
> 
> Demi Glace is half brown sauce(Espagnole)half brown stock(made with Veal bones) reduced by half.
> 
> ...



+1 but espagnole usually has tomato paste added.


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## StonedEdge (Mar 16, 2017)

DaveInMesa said:


> Late to the party, again, but.... if this is going to become a regular occurrence, I recommend looking for a silicone muffin/cupcake "pan". (Can anything made of silicone really be a pan? I don't think so.) Freezing stocks and glaces is the one-and-only legitimate use I've found for them. Saves having to cut and wrap the blocks. Just freeze the whole tray after it's set, then pop them out, and stick them in a ziplock freezer bag. Freezing them keeps them from sticking together, and you can just plunk one into your sauce without worrying about unwrapping it.



Pure genius right here...Can't believe I've never thought of that. I make beef and/or chicken/turkey broth/demi glaze weekly at home. This idea probably will prove invaluable to me haha. Thanks again KKFers


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## skewed (Mar 16, 2017)

Evilsports-

Really cool and ambitious of you! The only thing I would change (based on your pics) is to roast both your veggies and bones longer. I always roast both until they are very dark but not burned through (a bit of a fine line- your nose will guide you). The caramelization really adds to the depth of flavor and color.

Cheers,
rj


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## Rubix3 (Mar 16, 2017)

I learned something tonight. Glad I popped in for a look.


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## mise_en_place (Mar 16, 2017)

I don't really consider anything that's not veal stock to be demi. I don't really care if it's espagnole + brown veal stock or just an extremely reduced veal stock with no thickener (which I prefer).

That being said, this reduced brown beef broth will stand in very well in certain places for demi (read: veal stock). The beefy flavor will make an awesome espagnole, bordelaise, or bourguignone, but may not stand in well where the "neutral" nature of veal stock really shines-- like a sauce for pork. 

Call it what you want. I call what OP did good $hit.


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## mise_en_place (Mar 16, 2017)

PS I always do a remouillage with veal bones. Has anyone tried with beef? Is it worth it?

I make beef broth ~3 times a year but never think to make a remouillage.


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## skewed (Mar 17, 2017)

mise_en_place said:


> PS I always do a remouillage with veal bones. Has anyone tried with beef? Is it worth it?
> 
> I make beef broth ~3 times a year but never think to make a remouillage.



Yup- I make sure to refortify with a new load of veggies, simmer two days (first round ~1 day) and reduce by half. Worth it IMHO.


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## Sleep (Mar 17, 2017)

We do beef stock weekly and use the remi instead of water to start the next stock.


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## mise_en_place (Mar 17, 2017)

skewed said:


> Yup- I make sure to refortify with a new load of veggies, simmer two days (first round ~1 day) and reduce by half. Worth it IMHO.





Sleep said:


> We do beef stock weekly and use the remi instead of water to start the next stock.



Cool, thanks.


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## Evilsports (Mar 17, 2017)

Thanks for the comments, advice, and corrections. I appreciate it all. I'm far from a cook and any insight that actual chefs are willing to share is invaluable!


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## paulraphael (Mar 18, 2017)

FWIW, the difference between demi and glace de viande is not academic. They're used differently. Glace de viande is an invention of the nouvelle cuisine era, for reinterpretations of classical sauces. The versions made with gdv use a much smaller portion of glace, and then are typically thickened with reduced cream or swirled-in butter. If you use gdv as a 1:1 substitute for demiglace in a classical recipe, the flavors will way out of proportion, the sauce will be too thin when it's hot, and it will be too thick and gluey as it cools. James Peterson's _Sauces_ is my favorite reference on this topic.

I believe that both these preparations have been made obsolete by the pressure cooker. You can make a glace (technically a jus de boef or beef coulis) with very little reduction, and very little aromatic flavor lost to evaporation. Just use a much higher proportion of solids to water. Instead of thickening with roux, as you do in an espagnole-based demi, you can use modern gums. I use xanthan and lambda carrageenan. These thicken with minute quantities, don't harm the clarity, don't give a starchy texture, and have much better flavor release. As a bonus, cooking time is reduced to just a few hours (as compared with halfway to forever).


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## Evilsports (Mar 18, 2017)

skewed said:


> Evilsports-
> 
> Really cool and ambitious of you! The only thing I would change (based on your pics) is to roast both your veggies and bones longer. I always roast both until they are very dark but not burned through (a bit of a fine line- your nose will guide you). The caramelization really adds to the depth of flavor and color.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the advice. I'll heed it next time. (I also talked to my friend, a butcher, and he is opening a slaughterhouse in the next few months and will have veal bones to spare. I'll be sure to use veal next time).


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## Evilsports (Mar 18, 2017)

mise_en_place said:


> I don't really consider anything that's not veal stock to be demi. I don't really care if it's espagnole + brown veal stock or just an extremely reduced veal stock with no thickener (which I prefer).
> 
> That being said, this reduced brown beef broth will stand in very well in certain places for demi (read: veal stock). The beefy flavor will make an awesome espagnole, bordelaise, or bourguignone, but may not stand in well where the "neutral" nature of veal stock really shines-- like a sauce for pork.
> 
> Call it what you want. I call what OP did good $hit.



Thanks for the advice. My next logical step on the learning curve is obviously to learn how to make some sauces out of my reduction. I've been tentative to try anything before I have a modicum of knowledge in this area so I am cramming. I'm going to aim for a bordelaise to begin with.


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## paulraphael (Mar 18, 2017)

Re: veal ... it's worth remembering that back when the mother sauces were conceived, veal was a major category on every French restaurant's menu. People ate a lot of it. Which meant that veal bones were a convenient byproduct. Today, veal is a specialty meat, and the demand for bones exceeds the supply. So you can end up paying ridiculous prices for shin bones that have a few scraps of meat and sinew on them. 

While I'd agree that veal has some special qualities, like its ability to add a lot of savoriness and gelatin with a relatively neutral flavor, I don't think it's mandatory anymore. Especially considering the price. 

Since pressure cookers have made it so much easier to make sauce bases, a lot of high-end chefs have abandoned the one-flavor-fits-all demi-glace approach, and make make specialty glaces for different meats. I've done beef, chicken, and duck. I've seen others do lamb, pork, and just about every thing else (besides seafood). It's possible to make 3 or 4 batches of modern glaces in the same time it took to make a single traditional demi, so you don't have much to lose with this approach. The sauces will taste better, and you'll spend less money than you would if you used veal.


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## boomchakabowwow (Mar 22, 2017)

oxtail has tons of keratin..

it's like the chicken wing of beef..


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## mise_en_place (Mar 22, 2017)

boomchakabowwow said:


> oxtail has tons of keratin..
> 
> it's like the chicken wing of beef..



I think you meant to type collagen, which turns into gelatin through the cooking process.


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## El Pescador (Mar 22, 2017)

Best thing I have read in a while!



boomchakabowwow said:


> oxtail has tons of keratin..
> 
> it's like the chicken wing of beef..


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## krx927 (Mar 23, 2017)

This reminds me a need to make it again as I run out of it a couple of month ago...

I do it in a traditional way like ChefJimbo was explaining: first stock, then Espagnole and later demi glace. It takes me whole weekend to complete co quite a task.

In regards of freezing: I just use small 2dcl plastic containers for it.


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## boomchakabowwow (Mar 23, 2017)

mise_en_place said:


> I think you meant to type collagen, which turns into gelatin through the cooking process.



i think i did mess it up..
(which seriously begs the question: *** is keratin?!! )


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## mise_en_place (Mar 23, 2017)

boomchakabowwow said:


> i think i did mess it up..
> (which seriously begs the question: *** is keratin?!! )



It makes up stuff like skin and hair... or the quills on a porcupine.


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## boomchakabowwow (Mar 23, 2017)

mise_en_place said:


> It makes up stuff like skin and hair... or the quills on a porcupine.
> 
> View attachment 34997



i knew that actually.

bug wings and fingernails make an awful Demi Glace..bleech..


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## DDPslice (Mar 30, 2017)

paulraphael said:


> FWIW, the difference between demi and glace de viande is not academic. They're used differently. Glace de viande is an invention of the nouvelle cuisine era, for reinterpretations of classical sauces. The versions made with gdv use a much smaller portion of glace, and then are typically thickened with reduced cream or swirled-in butter. If you use gdv as a 1:1 substitute for demiglace in a classical recipe, the flavors will way out of proportion, the sauce will be too thin when it's hot, and it will be too thick and gluey as it cools. James Peterson's _Sauces_ is my favorite reference on this topic.
> 
> I believe that both these preparations have been made obsolete by the pressure cooker. You can make a glace (technically a jus de boef or beef coulis) with very little reduction, and very little aromatic flavor lost to evaporation. Just use a much higher proportion of solids to water. Instead of thickening with roux, as you do in an espagnole-based demi, you can use modern gums. I use xanthan and lambda carrageenan. These thicken with minute quantities, don't harm the clarity, don't give a starchy texture, and have much better flavor release. As a bonus, cooking time is reduced to just a few hours (as compared with halfway to forever).




I just made a brothy stock using a non venting pressure cooker and can attest to such novelties living in the modern era, making life a whole lot faster. But I didn't wait for it to cool and it became cloudy before my eyes


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