# Is freehand sharpening worth it?



## purplemutant

I have been using a Spyderco Triangle Sharpmaker with excellent results. Since I am getting such good results is there any good reason to take the time to learn freehand sharpening? The only thing I can think of is for situations where the sharpmaker isn't an option. I recently had to order some more sharpmaker stones to replace some that I broke. So right now I can only use the sharpmaker with the fine stones until the medium stones get here. Freehand stones strike me as being more resilient than the ceramic stones for the sharpmaker. Of course it would also be nice to be able to sharpen "the old fashioned" way. Nothing like doing it your self instead of relying on modern gadgets. 

Jennifer


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## chinacats

Greetings!

Short answer is yes.

If you use Japanese knives then they are pretty much the only way to sharpen where you will be able to maintain the original geometry.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-%E2%80%93-The-REAL-DEAL


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## ThEoRy

How sure are you those results are so good? How does it address asymmetry of the knife or the geometry behind the edge over time? Forgive me for asking but I have no experience with jigs or angle guided systems.


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## WingKKF

Hell yeah, for some very good reasons: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/19335-Why-hand-sharpen-How-do-the-alternatives-work


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## purplemutant

ThEoRy said:


> How sure are you those results are so good? How does it address asymmetry of the knife or the geometry behind the edge over time? Forgive me for asking but I have no experience with jigs or angle guided systems.



I can only judge based on performance. The 40 degree (20 on each side) setting has worked great so far. It has worked out on kitchen knives and pocket knives. I can get the knives crazy sharp. When the knife is good and sharp like that it cuts food like it should. I have only had the sharpmaker for a few months, so I don't know how it will do over time. It does have a 30 degree (15 on each side) setting for back beveling. 

One thing's for sure; the sharpmaker is easy to use with a little practice.


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## purplemutant

chinacats said:


> Greetings!
> 
> Short answer is yes.
> 
> If you use Japanese knives then they are pretty much the only way to sharpen where you will be able to maintain the original geometry.
> 
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-%E2%80%93-The-REAL-DEAL



My main experience is with western knives. The only Japanese knives I have used are a couple of cheap Santoku. I used those just like I would a western chefs knife. I gather that they aren't supposed to be used that way. Besides those my only other experience with Asian knives is a Dexter Russel cleaver that came in the mail today. 

If the short answer is yes; what's the long answer?


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## TB_London

The sharpmaker is a one size fits all approach that on the whole will give you a good edge with a little practice. It does however constrain you to that one size.

Freehand gives you a greater ability to experiment and match the edge to the intended purpose. Also after repeated sharpenings the edge will get thicker and stones give you the ability to correct for this matching the original geometry, or adjusting it for improved performance. The 15 dps back bevel isn't low enough to do this with kitchen knives.

If you compare a train to a car, a train can only go to certain places but will get you pretty close to where you want to be without much effort. A car can get you exactly where you want to be, but you need to learn to drive and until you know the route you might get lost and end up further away.

So it depends if you're happy being close enough, or want to learn a new skill that has the potential to get your edges right where you want them to be.


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## purplemutant

Thanks everyone for the replies. Looks like I will have to get a set of stones and a cheap(ish) knife to practice with. Any recommendations for relatively cheap stones and cheap knives to practice on? Low maintenance stones would be my preferred option. For now I would like to avoid stones that require water or oil. For the knives, would any old crap knife from the drawer be ok? 

Thanks

Jennifer


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## idemhj

purplemutant said:


> Thanks everyone for the replies. Looks like I will have to get a set of stones and a cheap(ish) knife to practice with. Any recommendations for relatively cheap stones and cheap knives to practice on? Low maintenance stones would be my preferred option. For now I would like to avoid stones that require water or oil. For the knives, would any old crap knife from the drawer be ok?


Hmm I can understand why you dont want to practice on your better knives, but be warned that cheap (stainless) knives can be a real pain to sharpen. That will most likely lead to frustration (Ive been there :O), so if you want to save your good knives make sure that the one you are practicing on is of some quality  an old carbon steel knife would be a good choice. In other words, any old crap knife from the drawer is not necessarily a good idea.

In many ways its the same with stones. To cheap stones will lead to frustration. I started out with some real crappy no-name ones and was about to give up, but fortunately decided to buy a decent (well actually more than decent) stone  now, that made a world of difference. You wont find a decent stone that will not need some water, but it can be splash and go (means you dont have to soak it). If I were you I would buy a good middle grid splash and go stone and start from there. That way you can always add more stones as the need arises.


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## purplemutant

idemhj said:


> If I were you I would buy a good middle grid splash and go stone and start from there. That way you can always add more stones as the need arises.



Since I know very little about stones; do you have any recommendations? For the knife would a cheap old hickory butcher knife work? Something like this. 

http://ontarioknife.com/cutlery/old-hickory/7-7-butcher-knife-detail

What's the best way to dull a knife to practice sharpening?


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## idemhj

The steel in that knife is spot on. The shape of the blade may be a bit of a challenge, but I would go for it.

With regard to stones, I dont have all that much experience with different makes, so I may not be the best to answer. I use Naniwa Choseras and like them, but they are expensive. A lot of people recommend Kings (IIRC they can be used as splash and go, but will benefit from a short soak).


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## Lexington Jim

I have Kings, they work well enough and are less expensive than better stones.


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## mhpr262

purplemutant said:


> What's the best way to dull a knife to practice sharpening?


 No need to dull one artificially. If you paint the edge with a waterproof sharpie it will give you enough feedback about your angles and how much steel you have removed. Alternatively, offer to sharpen knives for colleagues and friends. After you have watched the Jon Broida videos and the Korin videos on youtube you will know more about sharpening than 99% of people you see. Maybe even more than 99% of hobby and even professional cooks. After that it all boils down to practice.

One thing that has been a great help for me: I fashioned a little triangle made of balsawood with my preferred angle that I can set on the stone and lay the bladeface on to find the absolutely correct angle (none of that stacking coin nonsense). When I have found it, I "lock" my wrist and remove the balsawood template and start sharpening. Use the template to recheck your angle frequently to see whether you tend to drift lower or higher with your angle. that can be corrected with the position of your hand on your blade.


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## daveb

For stones, this is a good starting point that will serve your needs for the foreseeable future You may want to fine tune it somewhere along the way but you won't have to:

http://www.japaneseknifesharpenings...ore-Set-of-Sharpening-Stones-p/set1dmcore.htm

A combo stone from King is a less expensive starting point, though not as versatile. You'll be adding to it soon. 

Another 3 stone set, this one from Japanese Knife Imports gets a lot of love here and is what I've gravitated to. http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/sharpening-supplies/ara-toishi/gesshin-stone-set.html

Add a flattening stone to any of these and you'll have the sharpest knives in your zip code.

For knives to learn on, I'm not big on learning on cheap then moving to good. You won't kill a knife, destroy it, ruin it, or otherwise mess it up by sharpening it. Yes you will get some scuff marks, yes the edge may not be perfect, but you'll work through these and learn what you're doing. And if you do get over your head there are several on this forum that will professionally un-mess it up. 

All that said, if you want to start with training wheels the cleaver from the link you posted would be better starting point. No curves. And everybody needs at least one clever. The butcher knife you posted is one long curve and would be more difficult to learn with. You might also look on the bay for "vintage forgecraft knives" or "vintage carbon knives".

To dull a knife simply let a relative use it. :angel2:


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## Ruso

Nope, it does not. Total waste of time and space. RUN!!!


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## purplemutant

Thanks everyone for the info. I may go with the Dave Martell set or king stones. How about these two king stones?

http://korin.com/King-Medium-Grain-Sharpening-Stone-with-Base-1000-Grit?sc=27&category=280107

http://korin.com/King-Medium-Grain-Sharpening-Stone-with-Base-1000-Grit?sc=27&category=280107

Another thought is this king combo stone

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DT1X9O/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Any benefits of individual stones VS combo stones?



mhpr262 said:


> One thing that has been a great help for me: I fashioned a little triangle made of balsawood with my preferred angle that I can set on the stone and lay the bladeface on to find the absolutely correct angle (none of that stacking coin nonsense). When I have found it, I "lock" my wrist and remove the balsawood template and start sharpening. Use the template to recheck your angle frequently to see whether you tend to drift lower or higher with your angle. that can be corrected with the position of your hand on your blade.



That's a brilliant idea! One of my concerns was keeping the correct angle.


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## Castalia

Good old King 1000/6000 combo waterstone will get you a good edge without too much work. Watch the Jon Broida/Japanese Knife Imports videos on youtube to get you started. Be warned you could be headed into a whole new hobby of sharpening and start feeling the need to acquire several different brands and grits of waterstones. Price ranges from very affordable to sky is the limit! Good luck on your journey.


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## purplemutant

Castalia said:


> Good old King 1000/6000 combo waterstone will get you a good edge without too much work. Watch the Jon Broida/Japanese Knife Imports videos on youtube to get you started. Be warned you could be headed into a whole new hobby of sharpening and start feeling the need to acquire several different brands and grits of waterstones. Price ranges from very affordable to sky is the limit! Good luck on your journey.



The king combo stone is cheap enough. So it looks like I will be getting that to start with. Thanks everyone for all the great advice. 

For a practice knife I remembered that my mom has a 6 inch Henckels that was "lovingly cared for". :lol2: That knife has been in the sink, in the dishwasher, "sharpened" with a pull though knife sharpener, and even has a melt mark on the handle where it was set down on something hot. All the things you aren't supposed to do with knives my mom manages to do. :laugh: The knife isn't really in usable condition at this point. So it would give me something good to practice on. I will probably also get an old hickory cleaver. If nothing else it would a good replacement for my cleaver from the Ronco Six Star knife set. Yea yea I know...The set was cheap and I was stupid. :laugh:

I got rid of my moms Wusthof sharpener to make sure she didn't damage any other knives. I wish I had kept that. It would have been nice to post some pictures showing all the nicks and cut marks from her aggressive use.


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## Bolek

Im a nob in sharpening so I can only indicate my way. Im trying to avoid stones flattering so I go with Spyderco 302 medium, fine and 306 ultrafine. No wear then no need to make them flat. The ultrafine is so slow that you can practice with an almost sharp knife. You clean them with soap and water or a pencil eraser. For really dull knife add a rough stone.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=sporting&field-keywords=spyderco 302

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...06,sporting,303&rh=n:3375251,k:spyderco+306uf


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## purplemutant

Bolek said:


> Im a nob in sharpening so I can only indicate my way. Im trying to avoid stones flattering so I go with Spyderco 302 medium, fine and 306 ultrafine. No wear then no need to make them flat. The ultrafine is so slow that you can practice with an almost sharp knife. You clean them with soap and water or a pencil eraser. For really dull knife add a rough stone.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=sporting&field-keywords=spyderco 302
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...06,sporting,303&rh=n:3375251,k:spyderco+306uf



Thanks for the suggestion. I think I am going to go with the king 1000/6000 combo stone. The spyderco stones are a little expensive. For now I want to go for something good but cheaper. The king stones seem to fit the bill.


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## mikemac

purplemutant said:


> I think I am going to go with the king 1000/6000 combo stone....



My first water stone....has been semi retired to the Baja get away home. In the last 12 months I've probably used that stone more than any others. It's a really good stone and can handle pretty much all knife and stone related issues EXCEPT 'new black OCD stone lust', which, unfortunately is a very common affliction on this forum.
;>


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## CoqaVin

the 1/6k stones are really good to learn on, but you have to also keep them FLAT, they dish very easily from what I have seen


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## chinacats

CoqaVin said:


> the 1/6k stones are really good to learn on, but you have to also keep them FLAT, they dish very easily from what I have seen



+1, for me it was to the point of having to do it between sessions. Easy enough, just pay attention as you go and figure out the pencil on stone trick to see how flat you are keeping it. The King is actually good for beginners as it will force you to use the whole stone to try and keep it flat. Best of luck. I'm sure you will do fine.


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## CoqaVin

I have seen some serious dishing on a 1/6k, you need to take care of the issue, every time you hit the stone, or it will just end up looking like a banana


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## purplemutant

Ok I just ordered the king 1000/6000 combo stone. I also ordered an old hickory cleaver and paring knife. Looking at the review on one of the old hickory paring knives; someone was complaining about the sharpness. I don't expect an inexpensive knife to come crazy sharp from the factory. In this case a knife that is less than razor sharp is a good thing. It would give me something to start practicing on. A 3 and 1/4 inch carbon steel paring knife should be good to practice with. Once I get the hang of it I will have a nice replacement for the cheap "good cook" paring knife from the grocery store. 

This is the paring knife I ordered

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FKGGXU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I can't wait for my stuff to get here so I can start learning how to properly sharpen knives :happy1: :knife:


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## johnstoc

Do you have a way to flatten the stone? If not, pick up a granite floor tile and 150-300 grit wet/dry automotive sandpaper, total less than $10. 

As others mentioned, check out Jon's knife sharpening playlist on YouTube. 

Have fun!


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## krx927

some really good tips were given here...




mhpr262 said:


> Alternatively, offer to sharpen knives for colleagues and friends. After you have watched the Jon Broida videos and the Korin videos on youtube you will know more about sharpening than 99% of people you see. Maybe even more than 99% of hobby and even professional cooks. After that it all boils down to practice.



Exactly what I did when I started freehanding 2 weeks ago. Until then I already sharpened 8 knives. Still waiting to buy better stones and get some more practice before I will tackle my Japanese knives.
But these cheap stainless knives are really hard to sharpen, proper steel is so much easier judging from my previous EP experience.



mhpr262 said:


> One thing that has been a great help for me: I fashioned a little triangle made of balsawood with my preferred angle that I can set on the stone and lay the bladeface on to find the absolutely correct angle (none of that stacking coin nonsense). When I have found it, I "lock" my wrist and remove the balsawood template and start sharpening. Use the template to recheck your angle frequently to see whether you tend to drift lower or higher with your angle. that can be corrected with the position of your hand on your blade.



This is also the thing I am planning to do!


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## purplemutant

johnstoc said:


> Do you have a way to flatten the stone? If not, pick up a granite floor tile and 150-300 grit wet/dry automotive sandpaper, total less than $10.
> 
> As others mentioned, check out Jon's knife sharpening playlist on YouTube.
> 
> Have fun!



Thanks for the info. I hadn't thought about stone flattening.


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## psfred

The only drawback to a King combination stone is that the coarse side dishes quickly. I have a set of three (800, 1000, and 1200) King stones I got a couple decades ago, and they get used to hold up my other stones to the correct height. Pretty much useless for sharpening woodworking tools as mine were inherited and quite dull, I got tired of spending more time flattening than I did sharpening.

The 6k is a different animal, cuts very quickly and does not wear very fast. No mud to speak of, but puts a good polish on the bevel quite quickly. Very nice stone, especially for the price.

The fast wearing of the coarse stone is much less of a problem with knives, so the King combo stone will work very well for you. They do cut quickly and cleanly -- just remember to use very light pressure and you will be fine. 

I don't think I would use the Spyderco "stones" for Japanese knives. Stones that require high pressure can cause micro-cracking issues with very hard steel. Waterstones work much better.

Peter


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## Bolek

psfred said:


> I don't think I would use the Spyderco "stones" for Japanese knives. Stones that require high pressure can cause micro-cracking issues with very hard steel. Waterstones work much better.
> 
> Peter



Waterstones work much better.
Yes but I do not know how to make them flat. Morover ther is no contamination risk of the higher grit ceramic by the lover grit one.
Why does Spyderco "stones" require pressure higher than the pressure aplied on waterstones ?


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## Pensacola Tiger

Bolek said:


> Waterstones work much better.
> Yes but I do not know how to make them flat.



220 grit wet/dry sandpaper on a glass plate or a flat ceramic floor tile is one way. A diamond plate like the Atoma 140 or DMT XXC is another. Draw a crosshatch pattern on the stone with a pencil to let you see when the stone is flat (it's flat when all the marks are removed.)


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## LKH9

For freehand practice, any kinds of cheap knife, some kinds of coin stacks, dowels for angle guide. More importantly.... a cheap silicon carbide stone. This will raise burrs in no time regardless of what steel it is. After that, polish the deburred edge on your Spyderco Fine stone. Youre lucky to have that stone, I would like to have one too if shipping is cheap. Forget all those waterstones if youre not using Japanese knives. Waterstones are very costly to use on cheap knives.


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## TheDispossessed

the absolute best, easiest and fastest way is to simply get a halfway decent knife, sharpen it every day whether it needs it or not, for a year. the knife will be likely trashed at that point and you'll be very comfortable a using waterstones.


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## daveb

LKH9 said:


> For freehand practice, any kinds of cheap knife(1), some kinds of coin stacks(2), dowels(3) for angle guide(4). More importantly(5).... a cheap silicon carbide stone (6,7,). This will raise burrs in no time(8) regardless of what steel(9) it is. After that, polish(10) the deburred(11) edge on your Spyderco(12) Fine stone. Youre lucky(13) to have that stone (14), I would like to have one too if shipping is cheap. Forget all those waterstones (15 - 21) if youre not using Japanese knives(22). Waterstones are very costly(23) to use on cheap knives(?).



Tried to count the number of times you were wrong. Ran out of fingers. 

Your remarks always seem based on the premise that everyone here has cheap stainless knives. Hello. This is a knife forum. I may have a cheap stainless or two laying around but I don't talk about them.


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## LKH9

Keep counting. I have more to come, get ready your toes next.


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## chinacats

What the hell is a silicone carbide stone?

What the hell is a cheap knife?

Finally, *** is a spyderco?


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## daveb

LKH9 said:


> Keep counting. I have more to come, get ready your toes next.



You're certainly consistent...


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## psfred

Lol, his is almost as much fun as getting my bandsaw to work properly!

Silicon carbide may raise a burr on a soft stainless knife, but so will a concrete block or a rough section of sidewalk. The edge will be very rough and shred rather than cut, and won't last very long.

Waterstones do a great job of sharpening softer stainless, and you can polish them up to a fairly fine edge, but it won't last. I run mine on a synthetic blue aoto and strop on chromium oxide on a piece of wood, and get very very sharp knives with edges that last a few weeks or more in a home kitchen. Wouldn't bother with them in commercial use, they would be dull in hours and I detest the edge obtained by steeling or using a pull-through sharpener. Nasty.

Spyderco ceramic stones aren't fine enough and work so slowly on hard steel knives that they are only useful for cheap, soft stainless knives. I'm replacing all the soft stainless as I go, I certainly have no interest in "better" stones to sharpen them on.

Use a decent Japanese style gyuto for a couple days and you will never go back to soft stainless. High quality plain carbon steel knives, perhaps, but not soft stainless.

Peter


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## LKH9

Yes, the edge after medium silicon stone is very rough, but after polishing on a fine ceramic stone and stropping on aluminium oxide, it can shave hair and slice paper smoothly, useable edge. Not durable, but then you can sharpen it again. There are no knifenuts to be found here, ss knives is the 90% population here. I would have never touched a decent knife if I don't buy them for myself. Maybe this forum is reserved for expensive top-quality knives only and top quality waterstones, I probably came at the wrong place. All rich people here...so much money is needed to learn how to sharpen a piece of steel.

My cheap made-in-japan santoku here is stainless, but it's a lot sharper and brittle than those made in thailand and china. Maybe the Japanese have a different standard in making cheap knives.


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## daveb

fred, Don't encourage him. Next he'll be showing you his "sharpening system" - two chop sticks, a rubber band, a piece of brick and a coconut...


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## LKH9

And now you're really looking for a fight, are you?


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## daveb

Not me. :angel2: You might hit me with the coconut...

To OP - Pls don't take this little tangent to your questions literally. I hope you came away with the (almost) universal thought that freehand sharpening is a great skill to learn and the best way to maintain your new (and old) knives


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## LKH9

And so as a moderator, you have the rights to freely insult me just because of difference in opinion? I have to kneel down and worship you because you're the God on this forum?

I think I have had enough with people like you. Whenever a newbie comes in to learn sharpening, this forum is like "no jigs!, no angle guides!, premium waterstones ONLY!, Expensive knives ONLY!, [No cheap SS knives! God forbids it! NO!]" Not everyone is rich like you people to be able to afford these luxuries, especially those from southeast asia. What is knife sharpening skill when it's only "possible/easier" with luxurious equipment? Weird knife forum, you might as well make this rule on this Sharpening Station - "WARNING! No cheap Stainless allowed here!"


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## Ruso

I support your point of view, LKH9. I rarely bother using good stones on cheap stainless from friends and family. Does not worth it at all. Also, learning on cheap stainless knives is a good way to learn. There is no fear to screw up your new $100+ knife. 
And yes sometimes this forum does feel like: "Oh, there is many ways to sharpen a knife, but anything differ from my opinion is not. (unless you are recognized expert)."



> Not me. You might hit me with the coconut...


Completely uncalled for mate.


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## chinacats

LKH9 said:


> I think I have had enough with people like you. Whenever a newbie comes in to learn sharpening, this forum is like "no jigs!, no angle guides!, premium waterstones ONLY!, Expensive knives ONLY!, [No cheap SS knives! God forbids it! NO!]" Not everyone is rich like you people to be able to afford these luxuries, especially those from southeast asia. What is knife sharpening skill when it's only "possible/easier" with luxurious equipment? Weird knife forum, you might as well make this rule on this Sharpening Station - "WARNING! No cheap Stainless allowed here!"



I think this may be a bit of "when in Rome..."

This IS a sharpening subforum on a site that specializes in high end kitchen knives. You're certainly welcome to talk about other methods but don't think you should be surprised when people here call it out as substandard. All that said, if you're happy with the edges you get then that is all that really matters.

I should also add that the edges you get may be much better than the edges some people here achieve on their high dollar knives and stones...it's boy that you're wrong, is just that there are other preferred method. 

And as to cheap stainless, the kiwi knives from your part of the world are among the best and sharpest and I have no idea why.

Cheers


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## chinacats

Meant to say it's NOT that you're wrong, just that there are other preferred methods. God, I hate typing on a phone.


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## daveb

Ruso said:


> Completely uncalled for mate.



Sorry you didn't find the humor there Ruso - I thought it was hilarious.

L is certainly entitled to his opinion and he expresses it frequently and often (imo) inappropriately. I don't care that he limits his experience to what he calls "cheap stainless" and "jigs" but I do find it irksome when he offers that experience as advice to those seeking guidance on sharpening. If the crux of the thread is "how do you sharpen....?" then bring on all comers. He has offered his positions in that type of thread and while his opinions are typically rejected, they are in no way stifled. 

Now when a newcomer is posting "how should I sharpen.....?" it's time to leave the drivel at the door. Suggesting a EP or other meaningful alternative is one thing. Rejecting using waterstones as "a waste of money" is another.

Again to the OP - hope we didn't lose you in this little tangent.


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## LKH9

I think OP has already left this forum after seeing such crap here.

Well, well, well, add these rules to this subsection then. I'll then kindly obey and stay away.

_-No cheap stainless knives allowed!
-No cheap stones allowed!
-No oil stones/ceramics allowed!
-Freehand angle guessing only,(you can't draw straight line with a ruler!)
-Hello. This is a knife forum! Cheap stainless is not a knife!
-FOR RICH USERS ONLY!
_


> I don't care that he limits his experience to what he calls "cheap stainless" and "jigs" but I do find it irksome when he offers that experience as advice to those seeking guidance on sharpening. If the crux of the thread is "how do you sharpen....?" then bring on all comers.



And so I guess when you first started to learn driving, you started out with a high-performance sports cars? When you can raise a burr on a cheap SS, you can make a much better edge on an expensive knife, is it that difficult to understand? All your high-end gears are only luxuries, for people who already know their stuff. Is learning how to sharpen a piece of steel that complicated and need that much amount of gold?

You people treat waterstones like the holy grail of sharpening stones. How do you think those surgical scalpels and industrial paper-cutting machines were sharpened? Straight Razors found everywhere in the world? I've said this many times, waterstone is there only to cushion these hard Japanese knives, especially when thinning down the blade.


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## Dave Martell

The original poster is considering moving from the Spyderco Sharpmaker system to free handing on stones, wanting to know if this is worth the effort/expense. I'd say that using the Sharpmaker is about 1/2 way between those two in that it's sort of proving an angle to follow but it comes down to the human operator to hold the knife steady to achieve the semi-provided for angle. If one can hold the angle then one is almost using a jigged system but this system isn't really a true sharpening system, it's more of a touch up device. It will touch up softer knives (<Rc58) but doesn't move steel on the knives most here on this forum have and use (>Rc58). Even if the Syderco Sharpmaker could move the steel on the harder knives it would do so slowly (as it does on the softer knives) and will never raise a burr and truly sharpen a knife as can be done with stones.

With regards to using a true jig system vs free handing stones _ I will always say go for the free hand way - that's because I realized a long time that in choosing between these two directions we're left with the choices of either getting what the jig allows or making happen what we believe the knife should have done to it. Jigs greatly restrict and often limit what we can sharpen and surely how we sharpen at the least. Free handing allows control over the entire process. It's also normally found to be less expensive to pick stones vs jigs. The place where free handing loses out is in guided control ability - the jigs are (mostly) 100% in control whereas the freehander must provide whatever level he/she can....and this often takes time to learn.

The subject of cheap knives and cheap stones has been brought up here and I agree that they go well together but for the high hardness knives most here on this forum have/use there is a great benefit in both speed and edge quality achieved from using quality waterstones. I have a saying that cheap knives deserve only cheap edges. 

When discussing sharpening in this forum we can't get away from the fact that 90% of the knives we're looking to sharpen are high hardness quality knives so we will most all likely be assuming that we are talking about sharpening these knives vs cheap knives. Sorry but this will always be the case unless otherwise stated, nothing we can do about that. It's not an elitist issue here - simply a case of cause and effect.

I will now ask that everyone in this thread go back to being civil to one another. Let's get back to the topic at hand.


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## Jpox

I started with hard japanese knives,wanted to get them sharp and bought waterstones (that I today find too soft). I dident think of jigs or anything - just wanted sharp knives and practiced with the knives at hand. I then started with woodworking and bought japanese tools (chisels and planes) - they too needed sharpening and here my freehanded sharpeningpractice (and waterstones) came in handy! Now I sharpen anything (except axes- they are to cumbersome and heavy) on my stones with great success. Though I must say - its a process that never stops, ever so often I realise something new or benefit from something I read here or just feel that things seem to improve as time goes by (been doing it for 6 years now).
The funny thing is, that I much later on sharpend the cheaper ss knives and what a difference! I actually find it much more tricky to get them right and they don't play well with my artificial stones. Actually I find that my coarse and medium jnats can handle the cheap thin ss knives better as they work a little slower and are a touch less aggressive (its like the abrasive material dosent get ripped out).
So,different story different take on the issue but I LOVE sharpening and would never do it with a jig - even my kanna blades (Japanese plane) that really would benefit from a fixed angle jig gets the freehanded treatment)!
Good luck to the OP and everybody else sharpening
Cheers


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## Mr.Wizard

I do not think that mocking LKH9 is justified. What he wrote seems quite reasonable to me, even if I don't agree with all of it. Results are what matter and it has been repeatedly demonstrated that with skill a decent edge can be had from extremely basic materials. (e.g. Murray Carter sharpening on a cinder block.) I think the advice to use a "cheap silicon carbide stone [that] will raise burrs in no time" is particularly good as a slow stone is really horrible to try to learn free-hand sharpening on. "Any kind of cheap knife" is sufficient to build some motor control. Finally "Forget all those waterstones if youre not using Japanese knives. Waterstones are very costly to use on cheap knives." may be a bit extreme but it is founded in reality; there is little _need_ for high-end waterstones to sharpen cheap knives and one could spend more than its purchase price in stone consumed while sharpening one.


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## Sabaki

It's getting hot in here 

One can achieve pretty damn good result with almost any kind of sharpening tool based on skill. However in the long run, waterstones will outclass any other type with ease. (in my opinion)

It all comes down to what you want to get out of your knives...right?
A diamond, ceramic or steel rod will serve you well for many years maybe? over time you will start notice deformation along the edge, high low spots etc
Electric sharpenerners or these when you roll the knife back and fourth can also serve well a couple of times but over time, deformation will take place.
oil stones often works great for long time but the use of oil in kitchen is not the best way (in my opinion)
Sharpmakers or these where you fix the blade etc i think is better for hunting knives (in my opinion)

For me, iv'e tried them all, (well almost anyway) and nothing serves me so well as freehand water stone, year after year after year and so on
There where days of struggle many times to get things right.

To become good at something you need a lot of practice and to do it right... every time
I consider my self as "medium good" meaning... I get my expected result every time i do it without spending more then 2 min per knife.
Sometimes i miss a spot, not often but i happens. A very sharp edge finish with 3-5k grit, deburred and stropped on balsa wood to make it last as long as possible. Test with the three finger test and occasionally some arm hair shaving, paper cuts etc is done with a scissor:lol2:
I do all thinning on one of my belt grinders with grit ranging from 120 up to 1000 and checking after with typical beston 500 for straightness.


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## LKH9

If you can sharpen a cheap SS properly, you can put a much sharper edge on your carbon steel knives due to the perfect angle you've achieved before(which certain people here often reject, I don't understand why). Anything that cuts, I will pick up, finger the edge and sharpen, box-cutter blades, scissors, cheap table knives, even saw blades. It has become an instinct.

PS: I'm not saying waterstones are crap, they are just reserved for the delicate Japanese knives. They are like couples.


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## LKH9

@Mr.Wizard, Murray is a certified expert, I'm nobody.


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## stereo.pete

Is free hand sharpening worth learning? Yep *drops microphone and walks out*


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## Salty dog

[video=youtube;6aoQGC1yIlQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aoQGC1yIlQ[/video]


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## Keith Sinclair

Agree that most people use cheap stainless. I sharpen mostly abused soft stainless for others. Try to get them into quality Japanese blades & basic knife care. More people than you think use knives until they will not cut and go out and buy another cheap knife. It is a lack of knowledge not pure economics. Look how many cooks are on this forum.

I never use my good stones for soft stainless. Diamond plates or coarse stone to thin, Giant King 1K brick to finish. Don't think people on this forum are elite snobs. I got into quality knives when I was a butcher helper. It evolved from there. I freehand wood chisels, Machete's, Ice carving tools. Push freehand to anyone who will listen esp. with kitchen knives, does not take long to learn. when mastered you will never have to use dull knives again.


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## jaybett

Learning how to sharpen is a valuable skill. Free hand sharpening gives the most freedom and options, from changing the angle on an edge to, thinning a knife, and everything else in between. There is a bit of a learning curve, but once you have the basics down, then its just refining the technique, which is a life long process. 

Jay


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## LKH9

keithsaltydog said:


> Push freehand to anyone who will listen esp. with kitchen knives, does not take long to learn. when mastered you will never have to use dull knives again.



I know one here who is even scared to finger test my newly sharpened box-cutter blades which has not even gone through my finishing stone yet, people without hope.. People like this will never learn anything until they dare to touch and feel the edge.


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## King_Matt

Put it this way, do not by an expensive knife if you cant sharpen a cheap one perfectly freehand


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## purplemutant

I am still here. I haven't been scared away 

The suggestions I have gotten are pretty much what I expected. It didn't take me long to realize this forum is full of kitchen knife enthusiasts. So the anti jig attitude is understandable. I already had figured that freehanding was the way to go. I just figured it would be difficult and didn't want to take the time to learn. So I went the gadget rout to make things easier. The sharpmaker does work well in my option. My Dexter Russel Chinese cleaver seemed to not as sharp as it should be. So I gave it the 3 finger test. Sure enough it needed a sharpening. So I gave it a quick touch up on the sharpmaker. Now it's cutting much better. I suspect I will continue to use the sharpmaker for quick touch ups and sharpening cheap knives. If you get enough requests to sharpen cheap knives it might be worth getting a sharpmaker. Even better would be to get a sharpmaker for the friend/relative and show them how to use. I got a sharpmaker for my sister. I don't think she would bother to take the time to freehand. So at least she has something to keep her knives in working order.

The stone I ordered haven't arrived yet. So I haven't tried any freehanding yet. I imagine that once I practice and get good at it, I will understand why most people here favor it. One huge advantage is that you can sharpen with whatever you can find. I have seen youtube videos of people using the underside of a ceramic coffee mug or even the edge of a truck window. Also, freehanding would work for blades that a bit too big for the sharpmaker. I have a Malaysian Parang and I am not sure I would want to try that with the sharpmaker. With water stones I am sure it would work fine. 

As to the question of cheap stones. I have learned that cheap isn't the way to go with many things. It's better to spend a little more for a quality product. So I am glad I ordered the king stone. I want to make the whole learning processes as easy as possible while still keeping things relatively cheap. So a $40 stone seems to fit the bill. I will know more once the stone comes in and I have a chance to give it a try. In the mean time I have been watching the sharpening vids from Japanese Knife Imports. The process looks simple enough. My main concern is keeping the correct angle. I may go ahead and try out the balsa wood wedge trick. Although in some respects I wonder if it's better to go fully freehand from the beginning. Another question. I have a cheap "good cook" paring knife from the grocery store. The package says it's high carbon stainless steel. Should I bother practicing with that or just stick with the carbon steel old hickory paring knife and cleaver I ordered? 

Freehand sharpening isn't just for rich people. The king combo stone I ordered is cheaper than my sharpmaker. Some of those jig systems like the edge pro are even more expensive. As for knives, keep in mind that in the long run spending a little more now is better than having to replace something not far down the road. An "expensive" knife that lasts for decades is preferable to the cheap knife that gets replaced every couple of years. I am on disability, so I am far from rich. I have come to realize that I am too poor to buy cheap stuff! Spending a a little more once is cheaper than spending less multiple times. I can't justify spending hundreds of dollars on a kitchen knife. But I can absolutely justify spending around $100 on a knife that will get daily use. Of course if I can find the expensive knife on ebay, a thrift shop, or a garage sale; so much the better. Another great reason to learn to properly sharpen knives. You can take dull/damaged knives and restore them. If I get good enough at sharpening I may have to visit garage sales and thrift shops to look for quality knives on the cheap. Besides being something fun to do, I could also make a little money on the side by selling the restored knives. The knives would also make great gifts. A high quality sharp knife and a spyderco sharpmaker would make a nice gift for someone with cheap knives who wont take the time to learn to freehand. 


Thanks everyone for the advice and debate.


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## Mrmnms

Jennifer, I just want to say it seems you really have your head on straight. Have fun.


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## daveb

purplemutant said:


> I am still here. I haven't been scared away




:goodpost: You might be the only sane one here!


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## LKH9

OP, I highly recommend that you use some kind of wedge to measure and keep your angle consistent. Don't play a guessing game if you want a perfect edge from freehand. Coin stacks, folded paper ect. after that take away the guide and keep your hand steady and apply presure gradually along the blade to sharpen. This is just a matter of practice. You need a repeatable angle when you polish the microbevel on a finishing stone.

Don't tense your muscles too much on the knife-holding hand.

PS: Freehand is a lot faster than stuff like Edgepro once you get the feel. I personally can bring a 7 inch knife back to razor edge within 5 minutes, provided it's not totally beaten up and left unsharpened for years.


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## malexthekid

LKH9 said:


> OP, I highly recommend that you use some kind of wedge to measure and keep your angle consistent. Don't play a guessing game if you want a perfect edge from freehand. Coin stacks, folded paper ect. after that take away the guide and keep your hand steady and apply presure gradually along the blade to sharpen. This is just a matter of practice. You need a repeatable angle when you polish the microbevel on a finishing stone.
> 
> Don't tense your muscles too much on the knife-holding hand.
> 
> PS: Freehand is a lot faster than stuff like Edgepro once you get the feel. I personally can bring a 7 inch knife back to razor edge within 5 minutes, provided it's not totally beaten up and left unsharpened for years.



Don't want to disagree with you but i would say dont follow this. Get yourself a magnum sharpie and follow Jon from Japanese Knife Imports YouTube clips, especially the magic marker one.

Jigs can be a great tool but ultimately, as others have said, they won't allow you to follow the profile of the knife properly.

So take the time, go slowly and follow those videos. And you will create pretty good edges quite quickly. Then you just neec to get the muscle memory going for consistency.


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## ctrippy1

Love this thread. Lots of info and opinions. Good luck to you mutant. I've been freehanding for years but only recently got serious about doing it "right". The videos that others have mentioned from JKI helped a lot. Grind, grind, grind - the only way to get there.


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## mikemac

Well, there's "cheap", and there's "less expensive"...Every time I use my King combo stone I am reminded that it really is a very good stone, and less expensive than a lot of stones that get discussed on this forum. Likewise I have several Forschner knives that are 20+ years old, and were relatively 'less expensive', then and now, but compared to a lot of what seems to end up in knife block sets, the Forschners are not 'cheap stainless'. 
Over the years I've gone from freehand to 'aid assisted' to jig and back to freehand. Usually the aid or jig phase was just to "try it out". IMHO, the best aid after all these years is the Black Sharpie. or someone new, sharpening both a paring cleaver, the coin stack can be a useful reference tool as well.


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## toddnmd

I think some kind of guide (whether stacked coins, paper or wood wedges, or something else), along with using a magic marker and working to feel and follow the established edge are all valid and somewhat complementary methods to try to get better at freehanding. (And I'm no expert myself.) The end goal is to build the muscle memory to maintain a consistent angle, and to be able to vary that angle to be reasonably close to a target angle as desired. 
Jon Broida's youtube videos are great. I also like Murray Carter's sharpening videos.


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## ThEoRy

I've said this before. Learning how to sharpen a cheapo knife does not directly relate to sharpening a nice knife. Or to put it another way, learning how to drive a Dodge Neon does not directly relate to driving a Dodge Viper.


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## Ruso

> I've said this before. Learning how to sharpen a cheapo knife does not directly relate to sharpening a nice knife.


Could not agree less with this.


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## chinacats

Ruso said:


> Could not agree less with this.



If all you've sharpened is cheap stainless then we'll never know because you won't get close enough to my knives to sharpen them


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## Ruso

chinacats said:


> If all you've sharpened is cheap stainless then we'll never know because you won't get close enough to my knives to sharpen them



It's quite a pretentious assumption mate.


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## chinacats

Ruso said:


> It's quite a pretentious assumption mate.



May be presumptuous, but it's a fact..they would likely blow my asymmetry and likely my edge bevel which suddenly be 15-20 degrees/side. Our maybe not, but as I said, we'll never know.


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## Geo87

ThEoRy said:


> I've said this before. Learning how to sharpen a cheapo knife does not directly relate to sharpening a nice knife.


Could not agree more with this


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## Mrmnms

Ruso said:


> It's quite a pretentious assumption mate.



Didn't you know that sharp knives hadn't existed until relatively recently? It's a wonder Escoffier could cook anything without a proper Gyuto. I'd be happy to have you sharpen one of my knives. &#128513;


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## Benuser

Escoffier had no cheap stainless either. He had highly polished, convexed edges on his carbon blades.


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## ThEoRy

Ruso said:


> Could not agree less with this.



Care to elaborate on how sharpening cheap soft steel directly relates to sharpening a high hrc blade?


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## LKH9

It's all about grinding with steady hands at a proper angle, raise burrs, deburr and polish/ strop, still the same process. I don't see any difference in technique except that hard carbon steels sharpens much easier and th Ite edge is much sharper by a big margin and it also lasts a lot longer.

Seriously, instead of arguing among our own knife enthusiats, why not educate the common folks on how to take care of their knives and how to sharpen them. We here are birds of the same feather isn't it? It's almost impossible to find a knifenut in real life who actually know something about knives.


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## chinacats

LKH9 said:


> It's almost impossible to find a knifenut in real life who actually know something about knives.



Yep


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## malexthekid

LKH9 said:


> It's all about grinding with steady hands at a proper angle, raise burrs, deburr and polish/ strop, still the same process. I don't see any difference in technique except that hard carbon steels sharpens much easier and th Ite edge is much sharper by a big margin and it also lasts a lot longer.
> 
> Seriously, instead of arguing among our own knife enthusiats, why not educate the common folks on how to take care of their knives and how to sharpen them. We here are birds of the same feather isn't it? It's almost impossible to find a knifenut in real life who actually know something about knives.



Sorry, just want to correct you on one thing. You can get any steel as sharp as any other steel (essentially, if it is really crappy and for some reason chips rather than grinds, then there is issues there). Cheap stainless steel knives can be as sharp as your Marko or Japanese high end blades. Edges may not last as long due to different hardnesses etc.

But it will be as sharp when finished sharpening, provided you know what you are doing. Now it may not cut like it is sharper, due to not being able to hold an acute enough angle, but that is totally different to sharpness.

Heck you can have something extremely sharp when it meets at 90 degrees, if you get the apex formed properly.

Again, but I just feel, given you arguement about cheap vs expensive before, then you should really follow that through properply. A cheap knife, for most parts, can get just as sharp as an expensive one, just takes more time to get there, and more maintenance to keep it.


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## mhpr262

ThEoRy said:


> Care to elaborate on how sharpening cheap soft steel directly relates to sharpening a high hrc blade?



To me, the most important thing is finding and maintaining the correct angle and sharpening each part of the length and each side of the blade so you get an even, clean bevel. That can be practiced with a stainless blade just as well. With Japanese knives there may be additional difficulty with degrees of asymmetry and different angles on each side but that is secondary IMHO. Other than that a harder blade just takes longer, no?


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## Benuser

Not exactly. Basics are raising a burr, chasing a burr and getting rid of it. The first and the last are a bit problematic with cheap stainless. That's why a suggest a basic carbon to learn on.
With cheap stainless, you may better use SiC stones or coarse automotive sandpaper -- stones with a lot of pressure -- to build a relief bevel. Don't stop before before the edge, but go on until you raise a big burr on both sides. So you're sure to have removed all the fatigued steel. Finally, abrade the burr with a few gentle strokes on a coarse ceramic rod at some 30 degree per side. That's it. Don't look for any refinement. You would only weaken the matrix and have the big carbides to break out.


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## Ruso

Benuser said:


> Not exactly. Basics are raising a burr, chasing a burr and getting rid of it. The first and the last are a bit problematic with cheap stainless. That's why a suggest a basic carbon to learn on.



This is the exact reason I think learning on cheap stainless (CS) is better. If you can do all three "steps" consistently with CS you will have no problems in moving to better steels. The opposite is harder. AKA if you learned the easier way, its tougher to embrace the harder option.


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## Benuser

I would tend to respectfully disagree. The technique I described is "fast and dirty". You waste a lot of steel. You don't learn to recognize a fine burr, nor to eliminate it carefully by refining it trough the progression.


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## Ruso

Benuser said:


> I would tend to respectfully disagree. The technique I described is "fast and dirty". You waste a lot of steel. You don't learn to recognize a fine burr, nor to eliminate it carefully by refining it trough the progression.


Sure, everyone can and should have it's own opinion. But if you noticed, I did not really comment on the method you've described just on the first paragraph's statement. 

Also, note, we are talking about learning how to sharpen, not how would you sharpen a CS now. This are two different things. 
This is my stands on learning.
My recommendation for a *new learner *is 1 stone on a coarser side. Could SiC; India; or anything similar cheap. Water stones would not be ideal due to usual fast dishing at lower grit. And a King 1000/1200 to refine the edge. Cheap knife, and go for it.
Coarse stone will teach how to raise and feel for the burr. This is quite important if you never felt for it before. And King 1000 is a good cheap stone to get the feel for the water stones and will teach how to abrade the burr and maintain the same angle on different stones. 
Overall the cost of the setup ~ $40 (If you do not like it, oh well...)
No fear to screw a good knife
Lots of fun - Having a coarse stone and cheap knife is lots of fun 
Fast results, meaning that after is sharper then before
Obviously: reading, watching good videos (Jon), listening to more experience users, use common sense and experiment on your own are mandatory to get better and get better understanding of the trait.


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## icanhaschzbrgr

Ruso said:


> This is the exact reason I think learning on cheap stainless (CS) is better. If you can do all three "steps" consistently with CS you will have no problems in moving to better steels. The opposite is harder. AKA if you learned the easier way, its tougher to embrace the harder option.



Different folks seems to have different opinions on the subject. 

For some of us sharpening is just a necessary thing to keep knives sharp. You just learn sharpening with the knives that you already have. The very basics are the same for all knives and tools. You are trying to raise a burr, get rid of burr and use the tools that are readily available (sandpaper, cheaper stones, cinderblocks etc).

There's another group of users who have spend a lot of time sharpening all kinds of knives. Those users might enjoy the very process of sharpening. It's kind of religion even. This group of users spend their time changing stones, trying different types of steel and hunting for an ultimate edge.

And there's a third group. A small one. Professional sharpeners who make money out of it. 

And each group has their own truth. I see no point of arguing here really


----------



## krx927

ThEoRy said:


> I've said this before. Learning how to sharpen a cheapo knife does not directly relate to sharpening a nice knife. Or to put it another way, learning how to drive a Dodge Neon does not directly relate to driving a Dodge Viper.



I am not necessary talking about knife sharpening, but your driving example is simply wrong. You can learn 90% of driving skills in Dodge Neon (or bloody Yugo) that are DIRECTLY related to Viper...
You obliviously are not a car guy


----------



## krx927

LKH9 said:


> It's almost impossible to find a knifenut in real life who actually know something about knives.





1+


----------



## daveb

-1. Twice.


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## knyfeknerd

LKH9 said:


> It's almost impossible to find a knifenut in real life who actually know something about knives.



What in the hell are you talking about? 
So, you are saying that 90+ percent of the members on any given knife forum know nothing about knives? The makers? The vendors? 
I'm glad you're here to tell us all about it.
Please do tell us more about how little we know.


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## LKH9

knyfeknerd said:


> What in the hell are you talking about?
> So, you are saying that 90+ percent of the members on any given knife forum know nothing about knives? The makers? The vendors?
> I'm glad you're here to tell us all about it.
> Please do tell us more about how little we know.



Hey hey, calm down! You must have misunderstood my meaning I suppose. I'm talking about my own little world here. I'll explain this clearly, I said I can't find a real person out of the net who actually loves knives.


----------



## knyfeknerd

LKH9 said:


> Hey hey, calm down! You must have misunderstood my meaning I suppose. I'm talking about my own little world here. I'll explain this clearly, I said I can't find a real person out of the net who actually loves knives.



OK cool. Some things are lost in translation.


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## LKH9

Saying we knife enthusiasts here should be like 1 family, why fight among ourselves... We are only the minority on this planet, should be kind towards each other.


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## purplemutant

My stone and carbon steel knives came in today. :happy1:

I will post more once I have gotten around to trying out the stone. Thanks everyone for pushing me into freehand sharpening and helping me pick decent set of affordable stones.


----------



## malexthekid

purplemutant said:


> My stone and carbon steel knives came in today. :happy1:
> 
> I will post more once I have gotten around to trying out the stone. Thanks everyone for pushing me into freehand sharpening and helping me pick decent set of affordable stones.



Enjoy, have fun with them, as everyone has said, watch Jon''s videos on youtube to learn.

And mostly be careful, I have only been into this knife scene for a year (well at least from the point of owning and sharpening) but have managed to purchase myself 5 gyutos within the year (though I now have a self imposed/wife imposed ban on purchases for the near future). They are a joy to cut with, and helped increase my love for cooking.


----------



## ThEoRy

krx927 said:


> I am not necessary talking about knife sharpening, but your driving example is simply wrong. You can learn 90% of driving skills in Dodge Neon (or bloody Yugo) that are DIRECTLY related to Viper...
> You obliviously are not a car guy



You are oblivious to obvious vocabulary mistakes. lol :tease: As for the Viper reference it still stands. That missing percentage is where the action is. The high performance. It's where you learn to raise and refine a fine even burr until elimination. It's where you learn asymmetrical sharpening it's where you take a knife up to higher grits and it can hold the edge.

What's the point of learning to sharpen a cutco up to 5k when it fails after one cut? What did you learn? What feelings or emotions are you going through? It's like, "****, what am I doing wrong?!" Then you get discouraged, wash rinse repeat. You may learn some muscle memory, but that's about it. How do I know this? BECAUSE I'VE BEEN THERE! Why is my knife dull? Why am I not getting good results? What am I doing wrong? I JUST SHARPENED IT! The minute I dove in on my Tanaka I had instant proper feedback and was able to adjust accordingly to achieve great results. I'm not telling everyone to go out and buy a $600 knife or that that's the only way to learn. But I will say mostly everything I learned about proper sharpening happened on nicer blades.

Who the **** drives a Viper at 35 mph anyway? If you want to learn how to drive a viper, you have to drive a viper. It's a different beast. Just like knives, there's a huge difference. I sharpen cheapos up to 500 and maybe strop on a 1200 then back on the 500. I would never do that on my work knives. Ever.


----------



## purplemutant

malexthekid said:


> Enjoy, have fun with them, as everyone has said, watch Jon''s videos on youtube to learn.
> 
> And mostly be careful, I have only been into this knife scene for a year (well at least from the point of owning and sharpening) but have managed to purchase myself 5 gyutos within the year (though I now have a self imposed/wife imposed ban on purchases for the near future). They are a joy to cut with, and helped increase my love for cooking.



I have been watching his videos. Good stuff. I will have to be careful with spending. Once I get good at sharpening I will probably decide I need more stones even if what I have is working fine. I am not too worried about expensive knife purchases. I would be more worried about cheap used knives. I am sure it will be mighty tempting to pick up used/abused knives to try to bring back to life. $5-$10 for a knife isn't that bad, until you start buying a whole bunch of them :lol2:


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## Mr.Wizard

knyfeknerd said:


> What in the hell are you talking about?



I believe LKH9 is using old internet slang from a time when Facebook didn't exist and people enjoyed often-anonymous alter-egos like Mr.Wizard or Lo Pan. In that time "real life" was clearly understood to mean not "jacked in to cyberspace" or "riding the information superhighway" or some other now-archaic expression. :2cents:


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## knyfeknerd

Mr.Wizard said:


> I believe LKH9 is using old internet slang from a time when Facebook didn't exist and people enjoyed often-anonymous alter-egos like Mr.Wizard or Lo Pan. In that time "real life" was clearly understood to mean not "jacked in to cyberspace" or "riding the information superhighway" or some other now-archaic expression. :2cents:



Ahh the wonders of the interweb!


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## purplemutant

Success! :happy1::knife:

I tried out my stone with the old hickory carbon steel paring knife I ordered just for this purpose. The knife came sharpened from the factory; but it wasn't super sharp. I like to do paper cutting as a test of sharpness. I like using receipt paper because it's thin and I always have some spare receipts in my wallet. The factory edge had some trouble cutting paper. Now it cuts paper quite nicely. It's not crazy scary sharp, but it passed the test. Not bad for my first try at sharpening with decent stones. The youtube videos from Japanese knife imports were very helpful. The only issues I ran into were keeping the angle consistent and knowing when to switch from 1000 grit to 6000 grit. Even without the sharpie trick I could tell my angle was off. Regardless the knife is sharper than it was out of the box. 

How sharp should the knife be before I switch to the finer grit?

For now I think I will keep using the sharpmaker on the main kitchen knives until I have more sharpening experience under my belt. Thanks again everyone for all your help


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## LKH9

When you have raised a burr and removed them, there you can switch to finer stone. Fine stone is meant to polish the edge only, so do it with Very Light pressure only. After that you will raise anothrr burr, but this time is much finer, maybe harder to feel with fingers depending on how fine the stone is.


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## Benuser

You will go to the next stone when the burr can't get refined any further on the previous one, when it only flips after a single stroke with the least pressure, and you can't get any further improvement.


----------



## krx927

ThEoRy said:


> You are oblivious to obvious vocabulary mistakes. lol :tease: As for the Viper reference it still stands. That missing percentage is where the action is. The high performance. It's where you learn to raise and refine a fine even burr until elimination. It's where you learn asymmetrical sharpening it's where you take a knife up to higher grits and it can hold the edge.
> 
> What's the point of learning to sharpen a cutco up to 5k when it fails after one cut? What did you learn? What feelings or emotions are you going through? It's like, "****, what am I doing wrong?!" Then you get discouraged, wash rinse repeat. You may learn some muscle memory, but that's about it. How do I know this? BECAUSE I'VE BEEN THERE! Why is my knife dull? Why am I not getting good results? What am I doing wrong? I JUST SHARPENED IT! The minute I dove in on my Tanaka I had instant proper feedback and was able to adjust accordingly to achieve great results. I'm not telling everyone to go out and buy a $600 knife or that that's the only way to learn. But I will say mostly everything I learned about proper sharpening happened on nicer blades.
> 
> Who the **** drives a Viper at 35 mph anyway? If you want to learn how to drive a viper, you have to drive a viper. It's a different beast. Just like knives, there's a huge difference. I sharpen cheapos up to 500 and maybe strop on a 1200 then back on the 500. I would never do that on my work knives. Ever.



I see that you immediately chew on the candy I threw in the text, although this time I will refrain myself from inserting emotions...

My opinion about the car example and the rest still stands. If you would at least pics some other car, but Viper...

I am not arguing about the sharpening part though.


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## ThEoRy

Regular car vs high performance car. Regular knife vs high performance knife. Better?


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## Keith Sinclair

purplemutant said:


> My stone and carbon steel knives came in today. :happy1:
> 
> I will post more once I have gotten around to trying out the stone. Thanks everyone for pushing me into freehand sharpening and helping me pick decent set of affordable stones.



Great with some practice & Jon's video's you will be getting sharp edges on the carbon in no time. And you are right you can freehand all kinds of blades on a stone.


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## Salty dog

I'm a freehander and don't have much more to say except I don't waste my time on the stainless house knives. They go right to the Tru-Hone machine.


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## Andrey V

TB_London said:


> The sharpmaker is a one size fits all approach that on the whole will give you a good edge with a little practice. It does however constrain you to that one size.
> 
> Freehand gives you a greater ability to experiment and match the edge to the intended purpose. Also after repeated sharpenings the edge will get thicker and stones give you the ability to correct for this matching the original geometry, or adjusting it for improved performance. The 15 dps back bevel isn't low enough to do this with kitchen knives.
> 
> If you compare a train to a car, a train can only go to certain places but will get you pretty close to where you want to be without much effort. A car can get you exactly where you want to be, but you need to learn to drive and until you know the route you might get lost and end up further away.
> 
> So it depends if you're happy being close enough, or want to learn a new skill that has the potential to get your edges right where you want them to be.


Awesome example, btw. &#128077;&#128077;&#128077;
And please don't forget the huge difference in steels, geometry, hardness ( i mean carbons first if all). There's a huge difference between sharpening source as well, Jnats give much better results compared to synthetic stones, then reinforcing of the cutting edge.... So all-in-all: pocket knives are not pro- kitchen knives. Everybody is free to choose it's own way, but is asked: here is the answer. Guys, full respect, you give very "calm"  answers compared to those on other forums.


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## Roger

I don't regret a second getting into freehand sharpening. Awesome results, great fun and learning. It may be a little tough at the beginning to get it but once you're getting a good hand it's really cool to do and it's quite good at clearing my mind of anything else when I'm at it.


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## mhpr262

Roger said:


> it's quite good at clearing my mind of anything else when I'm at it.



Same here, it's almost meditative.


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