# How reliable is America's test kitchen recommendation?



## Dxtreme (Apr 10, 2019)

Im looking to get a serrated knife and came across this review



This $15 Mercer Culinary M23210 Millennia 10-Inch Wide Wavy Edge Bread Knife is the winner of the test. What do you guys think ? I am wondering why they did not test the Gude ???


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## chinacats (Apr 10, 2019)

If you want a cheap bread knife just get a Forschner... as to why the test didn't include a Gude, likely the same reason the chefs knife test didn't include a Shig, Watanabe, Tanaka, etc


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## daveb (Apr 10, 2019)

ATK relies on the American housewife for their revenue stream. Gude? What's a Gude? 

That said, they don't do well with test set-up, measuring quantifiable characteristics and their results interpretation is pretty subjective. (I did a lot of R&D and T&E in my younger years.)

And that said, Mercer is the sorriest knifemaker making sorry knives. They could not stay viable if they didn't have contracts with so many culinary schools that require students to buy their product.


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## ThinMan (Apr 10, 2019)

Not reliable.


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## HRC_64 (Apr 10, 2019)

All the german bread knives are vaugely comparable...the Gude is nice but only unique in the 320mm size

The closest shape to the Gude which (and one which is more available) is the old style F-Dick. I've used both side by side
and the profiles are nearly identical (good). They are little taller heel height and very asymmetric and cut straight slices.
The F-dick has teeth point-shapes more like the ATK prefers, the Gude is narrower teeth-spacing (=sometimes cuts board LOL).
Neither are pastry style round lobe.

(NB--I've seen som more modernized F-dick for sale, I'd probably check photos before buying to avoid SKU variation)


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## Dxtreme (Apr 10, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> All the german bread knives are vaugely comparable...the Gude is nice but only unique in the 320mm size
> 
> The closest shape to the Gude which (and one which is more available) is the old style F-Dick. I've used both side by side
> and the profiles are nearly identical (good). They are little taller heel height and very asymmetric and cut straight slices.
> ...



Strictly for Artisan homemade bread, would you prefer the Guys or F-dick ?


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## Elliot (Apr 10, 2019)

I am actually a fan of ATK with a couple of caveats. 
For run-of-the-mill kitchen equipment, from pans and spatulas to blenders and cutting boards, I think they are more than reliable. 
In addition, their recipes are usually good. 

Now, as it relates to knives, we must always acknowledge that the people of this forum are in a sub-culture outside of what the mainstream views. Is a Victorinox a solid chefs knife for the home cook? Absolutely. But -- the average home cook, and perhaps even line cook for that matter, doesn't dip their toes into Kato, Shigefusa, Konosuke and the such. Should they? Sure. I would suggest they all look at budget-friendly makers like Wakui and others.


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## HRC_64 (Apr 10, 2019)

Dxtreme said:


> Strictly for Artisan homemade bread, would you prefer the Guys or F-dick ?



The 320 gude if you make artisinal (1-2kg) sourdoughs.


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## labor of love (Apr 10, 2019)

Cool video. Through experience I came to the same conclusion that narrower bread knives were favored. Less serrations is best is an interesting discovery.


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## HRC_64 (Apr 10, 2019)

The ATK article on bread knifes discussed tradeoffs in serration spacing/shape and is worth reading,
if nothing else just to have a starting point on this element of design.

Note that gude is 320 (pretty big) and not 250-270 
and if you're buying the 320 the second knife (recommended)
doens't need to be the same serration pattern.


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## labor of love (Apr 10, 2019)

She does dismiss scalloped serrations (think Mac or tojiro style serrations) for pointed serrations which I do not agree with at all. 
Also, after 6 monthes of use those pointy serrations will likely be a lot less pointy and start ripping bread.


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## chinacats (Apr 10, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> The 320 gude if you make artisinal (1-2kg) sourdoughs.



Agreed...


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## Michi (Apr 10, 2019)

labor of love said:


> She does dismiss scalloped serrations (think Mac or tojiro style serrations) for pointed serrations which I do not agree with at all.


I have knives with each type of serration. I generally prefer to the use the one with scalloped serrations, especially for crusty bread, such as baguette, and for really soft things, such as croissants. Fewer crumbs flying with the bread, and no tearing with the croissants.


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## parbaked (Apr 10, 2019)

I too prefer scallops to saws.


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## Interapid101 (Apr 10, 2019)

Worst knife purchase I ever made was a Mercer. Avoid.


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## parbaked (Apr 10, 2019)

My favorite cheap, bread knife is the Tojiro F-737 for under $20.
https://www.tojiro-japan.com/products/tojiro-high-carbon-stainless-steel-bread-slicer-235mm/


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## HRC_64 (Apr 10, 2019)

Interapid101 said:


> Worst knife purchase I ever made was a Mercer. Avoid.



The mercer bread knife or some other knife?


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## HRC_64 (Apr 10, 2019)

parbaked said:


> I too prefer scallops to saws.



Scallops are best for gluten-free bread (a.k.a pastry)


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## labor of love (Apr 10, 2019)

The Mercer looks like a cheaper forschner to me. Their Chinese made, probably a bad choice for a chef knife but maybe a good bargain bread knife.


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## Interapid101 (Apr 10, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> The mercer bread knife or some other knife?



Fair point, it was not the bread knife.


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## playero (Apr 10, 2019)

I use a sharp knife for bread and other projects. do not use a serrated knife no more. eliminating the serrated side from the knives


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## labor of love (Apr 10, 2019)

I rely on bread knives solely because I don’t want to dull the edges on my good knives cutting bread.


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## panda (Apr 10, 2019)

I used to love cutting bread with takeda 270 gyuto back when I still had it.


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## DitmasPork (Apr 11, 2019)

Dxtreme said:


> Im looking to get a serrated knife and came across this review
> 
> 
> 
> This $15 Mercer Culinary M23210 Millennia 10-Inch Wide Wavy Edge Bread Knife is the winner of the test. What do you guys think ? I am wondering why they did not test the Gude ???




I feel that ATK is not a bad place for a home cook to start researching a bread knife, one of their parameters are accessible brands, readily available at places like Macy's—good video for people like my brother and his wife, who don't cook much (fear of cooking), and live in a city without a decent knife store. Researching bread knives outside of 'Consumer Reports' or ATK wouldn't happen.

I do appreciate the extent at which ATK does an extensive test—results informative and appropriate for its audience. But of course, like any review it's a reflection of the testers' preferences.

Why they didn't include a Güde bread knife? The average home cook wouldn't have the foggiest idea of where to buy one!

Personally, my go-to bread knives are a Mac Superior Bread Knife or a 270 Watanabe Gyuto or a Masamoto KS—the inexpensive Dexter-Russell bread knife has also worked fine for me.


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## AT5760 (Apr 11, 2019)

I think ATK and Cook's Illustrated are going to get you to a 90% solution 95% of the time. I'm biased because the magazine was my introduction to more serious cooking than simply following my grandma's recipes. As a home cook, I find nearly every recipe or recommendation a terrific starting point. And for the most part, they explain their methodologies, so you can make your own judgments to some extent. They aren't going to give you the ideal solution for a knife nerd, but it's a heck of a lot better than the recommendations from free websites.


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## DitmasPork (Apr 11, 2019)

AT5760 said:


> I think ATK and Cook's Illustrated are going to get you to a 90% solution 95% of the time. I'm biased because the magazine was my introduction to more serious cooking than simply following my grandma's recipes. As a home cook, I find nearly every recipe or recommendation a terrific starting point. And for the most part, they explain their methodologies, so you can make your own judgments to some extent. They aren't going to give you the ideal solution for a knife nerd, but it's a heck of a lot better than the recommendations from free websites.



Well said. 

From my observations, the average home cook is not a knife nerd. Friends and family of mine who're avid and very good cooks just want a knife that's 'good enough,' something reasonable sharp to get them from point A to B, without a desire to have the best possible knife, but rather the most inexpensive knife that's good—and get them sharpened at the hardware store. ATK would be viewed as a source for 'serious cooks'

BTW, Mac knives are especially popular in Hawaii.

With my Hawaii family, they are huge fans of Kai Pure Komachi knives, from which you can get a bread knife for under $10, in a very bright color. My parent's would express much displeasure if I ever told them I splurged $500 on a Kato WH, ..."wasteful, financially irresponsible kid, got ripped off buying a knife."


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## chinacats (Apr 11, 2019)

I'd be with your parents on that


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 11, 2019)

Yes for decades Mac knives have been a mainstay in Hawaii. 

Mac & Victorinox make good bread knives. As you know Vic 10.25 is my favorite stacked sandwich knife hands down.


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## Dxtreme (Apr 12, 2019)

Ok this recent review of theirs TOTALLY KILLED their credibility for me. What do you guys think of their take on this one ?


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## Hammett (Apr 12, 2019)

I have the 20x15 version of the Proteak, that I bought after reading lots of first-hand accounts that it was not dulling blades. I did not buy it based on ATC, though I was aware of their original reviews.

So far, it has been a great cutting board and I have absolutely no complaints about it. I have an end-grain walnut board that I love, but the Proteak has a more pleasant, softer feel. The Proteak shows cut marks, where the end-grain walnut does not, so I would say they are different, but one is not necessarily wholly better or worse than the other.

Was there something in particular about their recommendation that you objected to?


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## Dxtreme (Apr 12, 2019)

Hammett said:


> I have the 20x15 version of the Proteak, that I bought after reading lots of first-hand accounts that it was not dulling blades. I did not buy it based on ATC, though I was aware of their original reviews.
> 
> So far, it has been a great cutting board and I have absolutely no complaints about it. I have an end-grain walnut board that I love, but the Proteak has a more pleasant, softer feel. The Proteak shows cut marks, where the end-grain walnut does not, so I would say they are different, but one is not necessarily wholly better or worse than the other.
> 
> Was there something in particular about their recommendation that you objected to?



ATK went completely in reverse of what was most conventional knowledge of how end grain board is the best choice as it's the most gentle to knives, selfs healing .....etc, the stuff that we been taught ever since I could remember. ATK came and completely turned that wisdom over with their claim of edge grain board being more superior in the kitchen. So, either everybody was willing for so many years or ATK just discovered something revolutionary.

To me though, as other have said, I think ATK is just trying to cater it's product recommendations to the average homecook that sole purpose is to put plates on the table with as less resistance as possible. Unlike some of us here that loves to make our own board wax, aclamaticing our board....etc.


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## AT5760 (Apr 12, 2019)

From watching the video this morning, I think maintenance played a significant role in their ultimate recommendation. That led to the edge grain recommendation and may have made teak score higher than other woods. "Best" in nearly any context involves subjectivity, not only in evaluation but also in selection criteria for the evaluation. Change the evaluation criteria, i.e. remove maintenance from scoring, and ATK would likely have recommended an end-grain board. 

Watching the video led me to a Google rabbit hole on teak, silica, and affect on edge retention. I'm sure much more knowledgeable people than me can weigh in, but I question the relevance of woodworking anecdotes to a kitchen application. In woodworking, your stated intention is destruction of your working surface - however minor. In a kitchen application, this is a necessary side effect that good technique minimizes. 

Finally, their edge retention testing likely involved their standard recommended Victorinox 8" chef knife. I would be curious to know how much steel type, hardness, sharpening angle, interplay with edge vs. end grain. Is it possible edge grain is gentler on the softer steels?


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## inferno (Apr 12, 2019)

I base all my knife buying decisions on ATK results.


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## inferno (Apr 12, 2019)

Talking bread knives. I think i have the ultimate one. fiskars x10. its much much faster than anything they tried to be honest. dont leave home without it.


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## Michi (Apr 12, 2019)

Dxtreme said:


> Ok this recent review of theirs TOTALLY KILLED their credibility for me.


I think what they said is quite uncontroversial.

An end grain board absorbs more oil and needs re-oiling more often than an edge grain one. No surprise there.

End grain boards absorb more moisture and have a higher probability of splitting than edge grain, especially in a climate with varying humidity. No surprise there either.

Teak has a reputation of not being a good choice for cutting boards because of its silica content. I haven’t seen actual data to show that this actually does affect the edge of knives (as opposed to router bits and saws). So, teak being bad for knives could be one of those myths that just won’t die.

They _did_ come up with a reproducible protocol for testing how much the boards dulled a blade. That's actual data, not hearsay. If they say that they didn't see any difference in the rate of dulling, I don't think I can just dismiss that out of hand because they used a knife I don't like or some such. (I would expect the _relative_ rate of dulling to be much the same, regardless of steel.)

What they said about weight and size is just common sense. Bigger is better, provided you can still lift it and get it clean. Reversible is useful, too. And very thick is a problem for shorter people. Nothing to see here, move along…

The teak board they recommend, at $100, seems like a decent choice, considering that end grain boards that size cost typically at least twice as much. So, in terms of practicality and value for money, that's spot on. (It's like recommending a VW Golf as a sensible car for many people, as opposed to a BMW M5 or some such.)

They didn't trash the end grain boards, and they clearly said that much of this is personal preference. And I didn't hear them say anything that's outright wrong, either. So, I don't see a credibility problem.

It would be interesting to read the entire test report, but I don't feel like paying for a subscription just to read that.


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## Dxtreme (Apr 12, 2019)

Here's that teak board for $79 if anyone is up for it. I am not..... :/

https://home.woot.com/offers/teakha...Offer+-+20190411+-+Home+and+Kitchen+-+3199310


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## ian (Apr 12, 2019)

Michi said:


> They _did_ come up with a reproducible protocol for testing how much the boards dulled a blade. That's actual data, not hearsay. If they say that they didn't see any difference in the rate of dulling, I don't think I can just dismiss that out of hand because they used a knife I don't like or some such. (I would expect the _relative_ rate of dulling to be much the same, regardless of steel.)



One should maybe keep in mind the chipping vs rolling of the edge distinction, too. I could imagine that high hardness J knives might be more prone to chip on the teak edge-grain than end grain when used in the way we typically use them, i.e. less rocking and more up/down. I do appreciate that they’re doing a controlled experiment, which is more than I’ve done, but it doesn’t accurately model the way I use my knives, so I’ll take it with a grain of salt.


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## Michi (Apr 12, 2019)

ian said:


> I do appreciate that they’re doing a controlled experiment, which is more than I’ve done, but it doesn’t accurately model the way I use my knives, so I’ll take it with a grain of salt.


Yes, there are obviously lots of variables that are hard to capture and quantify.

One thing I've noticed with some cutting boards is that they can "grab" the edge: the blade sinks into the wood or plastic just the tiniest bit. If a cut isn't completely along the axis of the knife, that causes a little sideways wedging. Especially with knives that are really thin behind the edge, I can hear a little "ping" when that happens, as the edge skips out of its groove and the metal snaps back.

In theory, I would expect that effect to be more pronounced with an end grain board because it's a little easier for the blade edge to go between the fibres and, therefore, a touch more below the surface of the board. (I don't have an end grain board; with the edge grain ones I have, I haven't noticed any pings.)

I also tried using those thin cutting mats that you can put on top of a board, but stopped using them in short order. For one, they slip a lot more than I expected. But they are really bad when used with sharp knives. It's "ping city" the entire time with those: very easy for the blade to cut a little into the mat, even when cutting with light pressure.

I'm tempted now to pick up a teak board when I see one somewhere just to try it out. Been looking for something smallish and not too thick anyway…


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## Interapid101 (Apr 13, 2019)

AT5760 said:


> I think ATK and Cook's Illustrated are going to get you to a 90% solution 95% of the time. I'm biased because the magazine was my introduction to more serious cooking than simply following my grandma's recipes. As a home cook, I find nearly every recipe or recommendation a terrific starting point. And for the most part, they explain their methodologies, so you can make your own judgments to some extent. They aren't going to give you the ideal solution for a knife nerd, but it's a heck of a lot better than the recommendations from free websites.



Where did the “like” button go?


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## Dxtreme (Apr 13, 2019)

I totally did their other more utilitarian kitchen recommendations though, like the All Clad cookware and Le Creuset Dutch ovens.


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## HRC_64 (Apr 13, 2019)

Michi said:


> I'm tempted now to pick up a teak board when I see one somewhere just to try it out. Been looking for something smallish and not too thick anyway…




Why not just pick up a edge grain maple for half the cost?


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## SeattleBen (Apr 13, 2019)

ATK is designed with the idea that anyone can easily find the items they're reviewing. To beat a bit of a dead horse here for what they're doing they're great. I don't like Mercer knives and really think that for my knife dollar I've been incredibly well served for close to ten years with a wavy pastry knife that's for pastry but served me well in both home and pro environments. When I bought it it was $30USD I think. It's still functioning well enough and I like the wave to keep my knuckles easily off the boards.

https://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Swiss-Serrated-Fibrox-Handle/dp/B00093090Y


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 13, 2019)

Ben that's the bread, pastry, sandwich knife I keep pushing rosewood handle. Have seen with fibrox quite a bit. Our bakeshop used them too. Because you can sharpen them they last for years in a busy kitchen.

Yeh where are the like buttons, good posts on this thread. Michi you are right about observations of endgrain boards. A sharp blade esp. a cleaver can stick to the board it is because of the fibers. I love my boardsmith it will last longer than me. In woodworking the edges of a table top will soak up finish far more than the cross grain top. Like little straws. That is why the edges may be darker on the endgrain sides. After final sanding you can put a sealing shellac just on the endgrain for a more even finish.


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## Michi (Apr 13, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Why not just pick up a edge grain maple for half the cost?


I could do that (although I'm not sure about whether it would be as cheap as that over here). But then, I won't get to find out whether teak really is as bad as people say 

It's not a high-priority thing for me. I'll keep an eye out and, sooner or later, I'll probably stumble across something at a store sale or at a market somewhere.


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## Michi (Apr 13, 2019)

DitmasPork said:


> Personally, my go-to bread knives are a Mac Superior Bread Knife or a 270 Watanabe Gyuto or a Masamoto KS


I'm surprised at the Masamoto. Too light and not enough heft? Also, with a hard crust, wouldn't it struggle?

I guess I should try it…


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## HRC_64 (Apr 13, 2019)

Michi said:


> I could do that (although I'm not sure about whether it would be as cheap as that over here). But then, I won't get to find out whether teak really is as bad as people say
> 
> It's not a high-priority thing for me. I'll keep an eye out and, sooner or later, I'll probably stumble across something at a store sale or at a market somewhere.



Forgot you were down under, I guess the point I was thinking about, however, is that once your outside of "must be end grain" you don't need anything exotic (eg, teak) to make up for this...edge grain is fine for cutting no problems...it just needs a little bit of care (keeping a breadkinfe off it is is probably the biggest one, as cross-grain saw-scars are no good)


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## Stonetherapy (Apr 13, 2019)

Michi said:


> I could do that (although I'm not sure about whether it would be as cheap as that over here). But then, I won't get to find out whether teak really is as bad as people say
> 
> It's not a high-priority thing for me. I'll keep an eye out and, sooner or later, I'll probably stumble across something at a store sale or at a market somewhere.



Michi, if end grain is not a priority have a look at Bunnings benchtops! I have been considering them for some time.
They are foodsafe and come in a range of timbers and sizes. I was looking at getting an Acacia one and cutting a few boards out of it, putting rubber stoppers on the bottom. Prices are low on smaller ones, size is huge for our purposes. They now have Ash, oak, maple etc.
I am an edge grain fan, but am thinking this is the affordable way to get a larger cutting surface.
Regards
Wes


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## Michi (Apr 13, 2019)

@Stonetherapy Thanks for the heads-up, will have a look! There is a Bunnings less than five minutes from my place, and it has a large trade timber section.

@HRC_64 Yes, end grain is out for me because of height restrictions for the board size I want. I have a custom Tasmanian Celery Top edge grain board on order. Will look at making something smaller out of maple (or teak ) if I can find it.


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## Stonetherapy (Apr 13, 2019)

My number one son works at Bunnings and just told me that the ones that keep catching my eye are usually sale items, meaning that we will have to keep our eyes open as they offload them for next to nothing.


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## bahamaroot (Apr 13, 2019)

How reliable is America's test kitchen recommendation? Very reliable if you're a housewife...


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## Michi (Apr 14, 2019)

I'm just wondering… If I were to start out with no idea of cooking, and were to go through all the archived ATK videos and follow their recommendations, what sort of kitchen would I end up with? I suspect that it would be a pretty good one, actually.


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## Dxtreme (Apr 14, 2019)

Everytime I see on Instsgram folks with nice Japanese knives, like Kato and Shigefusa and they are all cutting away on some bamboo board just makes me wanna scream at my phone.


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## AT5760 (Apr 14, 2019)

The current issue of Cook’s Illustrated has more information on the cutting board testing. They note that the teak board they recommended left the test knife the dullest of any board after testing. It does make you question what they are willing to sacrifice for easier maintenance. Though, they said the knife used on the teak board would still cut paper at the end of testing. You know, for all of that paper we cut for crudités.


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## Michi (Apr 14, 2019)

AT5760 said:


> The current issue of Cook’s Illustrated has more information on the cutting board testing. They note that the teak board they recommended left the test knife the dullest of any board after testing.


Thanks for that! OK, so the story about teak boards dulling knives more quickly may not be an urban myth, after all.


AT5760 said:


> It does make you question what they are willing to sacrifice for easier maintenance.


Well, for an "average" household, this actually might make sense. If the dulling isn't too much worse, but the board is more durable and easier to maintain, it's not an unreasonable trade-off. Especially when considering that the knives in most kitchens are permanently dull as a matter of course…


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## John Loftis (Apr 15, 2019)

Michi said:


> Thanks for that! OK, so the story about teak boards dulling knives more quickly may not be an urban myth, after all.
> 
> Well, for an "average" household, this actually might make sense. If the dulling isn't too much worse, but the board is more durable and easier to maintain, it's not an unreasonable trade-off. Especially when considering that the knives in most kitchens are permanently dull as a matter of course…



I thought their recent cutting board review was fascinating, and I really appreciated the efforts they went to try to be objective. I agree completely that minimum maintenance played heavily into their evaluation. And they were definitely willing to trade-off low maintenance/scratch resistance with knife edge retention.

The way they set up their video/written review, you can watch the video for free, but the detailed written report is behind a paywall that requires either trial or paid membership. That kills me, because 98% of people are just going to watch the video and then check out the Proteak... because that's literally the only board mentioned in the video. But if you get past the paywall and read the detailed review, you see the BoardSMITH's stuff listed as their #2 brand and given a glowing recommendation. In the comments on the Youtube video, there are quite a few people commenting that the Proteak reviews on Amazon reveal numerous complaints about splitting/warping/cracking... and if those folks want another option, it sure would have been nice for our brand to be visible somewhere in the video or for us to have a hyperlink to our website. But I'm extremely grateful to have been included in the review. A small business like ours needs all the publicity it can get. And every other board reviewed came from a huge factory, so it was an honor and a minor miracle that they included us at all.

There are so many things from the detailed review worth discussing... but that might hijack this thread more than we should. But their review of hinoki was interesting, and their comments about scratch marks in a cutting board contributing to knife dullness, and the merits of their knife test (5,000 cuts, type of cut done, type of knife/steel used, etc). I also have thoughts on why an oil-laden wood like teak might be prone to delaminate/split, particularly one made in a factory in Vietnam.

So, while I disagree with teak as being the best wood for cutting boards (if I thought it was the best I'd use it!), I agree completely with @AT5760, at least as it relates to the cutting board review:

"I think ATK and Cook's Illustrated are going to get you to a 90% solution 95% of the time. I'm biased because the magazine was my introduction to more serious cooking than simply following my grandma's recipes. As a home cook, I find nearly every recipe or recommendation a terrific starting point. And for the most part, they explain their methodologies, so you can make your own judgments to some extent. They aren't going to give you the ideal solution for a knife nerd, but it's a heck of a lot better than the recommendations from free websites."


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## Dxtreme (Apr 15, 2019)

John Loftis said:


> I thought their recent cutting board review was fascinating, and I really appreciated the efforts they went to try to be objective. I agree completely that minimum maintenance played heavily into their evaluation. And they were definitely willing to trade-off low maintenance/scratch resistance with knife edge retention.
> 
> The way they set up their video/written review, you can watch the video for free, but the detailed written report is behind a paywall that requires either trial or paid membership. That kills me, because 98% of people are just going to watch the video and then check out the Proteak... because that's literally the only board mentioned in the video. But if you get past the paywall and read the detailed review, you see the BoardSMITH's stuff listed as their #2 brand and given a glowing recommendation. In the comments on the Youtube video, there are quite a few people commenting that the Proteak reviews on Amazon reveal numerous complaints about splitting/warping/cracking... and if those folks want another option, it sure would have been nice for our brand to be visible somewhere in the video or for us to have a hyperlink to our website. But I'm extremely grateful to have been included in the review. A small business like ours needs all the publicity it can get. And every other board reviewed came from a huge factory, so it was an honor and a minor miracle that they included us at all.
> 
> ...



John, that was excellent that you got featured ! Definitely a great marketing meantion that is well deserved. I will go check out the publication at my local Barnes and Noble but if you have access to the article, you might be able to post a copy of it ?


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## John Loftis (Apr 15, 2019)

Dxtreme said:


> John, that was excellent that you got featured ! Definitely a great marketing meantion that is well deserved. I will go check out the publication at my local Barnes and Noble but if you have access to the article, you might be able to post a copy of it ?


Thanks! They gave me special permission to copy an excerpt on my portion of the review so long as I provide the link to the full article. But they typically don't do that, and they would not allow me to copy the whole article. So they've been very cool to us. 






That's the excerpt from the full article, and here's the link to the article: 
https://www.cookscountry.com/equipm...s2+sxzBQcmpQ0Ea/SjNJMRjYPMqZURJ9BDyT2iJnXtw=


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## daveb (Apr 15, 2019)

Good on ya John! I would have said the same thing about mine.


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## Michi (Apr 15, 2019)

John Loftis said:


> But if you get past the paywall and read the detailed review, you see the BoardSMITH's stuff listed as their #2 brand and given a glowing recommendation.


Great to see that! You should add this to the list of recommendations on your website!


John Loftis said:


> I also have thoughts on why an oil-laden wood like teak might be prone to delaminate/split


Could you elaborate? I'm sure that quite a few people would be interested!


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## John Loftis (Apr 15, 2019)

Michi said:


> Great to see that! You should add this to the list of recommendations on your website!
> 
> Could you elaborate? I'm sure that quite a few people would be interested!


Sure. There are a number of dense, tropical hardwoods that are inherently 'oily.' I'm not sure if or why this is correlated, but many of those same woods also happen to be loaded with silica. Teak is one of those woods. As ATK points out, this oiliness gives the board a certain amount of water-resistance (and is certainly one of the reasons teak was used in boat building for centuries). But here's the rub... when gluing up strips of said wood, the oiliness can interfere with the glue adhesion. So the right way to glue up teak is to give all glue surfaces a quick wipe with denatured alcohol 60 seconds before applying the glue. The surface oil is removed, the alcohol flashes off, and you have a strip of wood ready to receive glue. But if you are a large factory in a third world nation, it's at least possible that those best practices aren't being followed. So the glue joints appear to be solid when they leave the factory, but the oil has weakened them and they fail after a number of washes/rinses. I'm not saying that is THE explanation for the splitting complaints; user abuse could be a part, etc. But it's definitely a potential 'gotcha' when working with teak.


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## Michi (Apr 15, 2019)

John Loftis said:


> But here's the rub... when gluing up strips of said wood, the oiliness can interfere with the glue adhesion.


That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation!


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## Chef Doom (Apr 16, 2019)

It depends on .......

Edit: Doom, Doom, Doom. This is not a nightclub or comedy show. But I'll have one of whatever you're having.


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## Chef Doom (Apr 16, 2019)

It was a valid comparison. My rights to free speech have been trampled. I DEMAND DIGNITY!


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## ian (Apr 16, 2019)

I think you mean respect, not dignity.

Mods, would you mind changing his post?



Edit: I apologize. I actually support Doom’s quest for dignity in this instance.


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## Chef Doom (Apr 16, 2019)

No, I meant a safe place and a time out. And a sign.


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## Chef Doom (Apr 16, 2019)

[emoji23]


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## Chef Doom (Apr 16, 2019)

The sign will read "Free breast exams. Guaranteed soft oily hands"


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## Dxtreme (Apr 19, 2019)

John Loftis said:


> But here's the rub... when gluing up strips of said wood, the oiliness can interfere with the glue adhesion. So the right way to glue up teak is to give all glue surfaces a quick wipe with denatured alcohol 60 seconds before applying the glue. The surface oil is removed, the alcohol flashes off, and you have a strip of wood ready to receive glue. But if you are a large factory in a third world nation, it's at least possible that those best practices aren't being followed. So the glue joints appear to be solid when they leave the factory, but the oil has weakened them and they fail after a number of washes/rinses. I'm not saying that is THE explanation for the splitting complaints; user abuse could be a part, etc. But it's definitely a potential 'gotcha' when working with teak.



John,

Say we have 2 end grain boards, one with bigger pieces of wood (1 3/4" x 2 1/4") and another with smaller pieces of wood (1" x 1 3/4"), which would be able to withstand shrinking and expanding more robustly over time ? the bigger piece assembly or the smaller piece assembly ? My logic is, for use on cutting vegetables,fruits and cooked wood, the board would not need to be washed as often vs the board that is used to cut meat,fish and poultry. 

Would you use the board that is assembled with bigger pieces of end grain wood for meat and the smaller assembled end grain board for vegetables or the other way round ?


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## John Loftis (May 7, 2019)

Dxtreme said:


> John,
> 
> Say we have 2 end grain boards, one with bigger pieces of wood (1 3/4" x 2 1/4") and another with smaller pieces of wood (1" x 1 3/4"), which would be able to withstand shrinking and expanding more robustly over time ? the bigger piece assembly or the smaller piece assembly ? My logic is, for use on cutting vegetables,fruits and cooked wood, the board would not need to be washed as often vs the board that is used to cut meat,fish and poultry.
> 
> Would you use the board that is assembled with bigger pieces of end grain wood for meat and the smaller assembled end grain board for vegetables or the other way round ?



That's an interesting question. In general, there's a trade-off with wood block sizes in end grain butcher block. The bigger a block of wood, the more it will want to expand/contract with changes in temperature, moisture, and humidity. Wood movement is a potential source of problems (eg warping and cracking). This wood movement can be mitigated to some extent by the way the maker lines up the wood grain of the various blocks to offset wood tension. But... if wood movement were all we cared about, we should just use the smallest blocks of wood possible. It would save a ton of money in material, because big blocks of wood are expensive. So, to answer your question, smaller blocks = less movement. 

But... the other factor is the number of glue joints. If a board is made perfectly, the glue joints should be stronger than the wood around it. But practically speaking, glue joints are a place where butcher blocks can fail. So lessening the number of glue joints is also a good idea. 

For us, we've found the 'sweet spot' to be blocks that are roughly 4" long X 1 3/4" wide. It's a very expensive way to make a butcher block, because there are a lot of off-cuts in our lumber that aren't 4" wide... The average width of a 2" thick piece of maple lumber is probably around 7" wide. So we have to order special widths or come up with creative uses for all the extra off cuts (ie mosaic boards). I'm sitting on a growing mound of off-cut lumber right now, so a batch of mosaic boards are in the works.


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## Dxtreme (May 7, 2019)

John Loftis said:


> That's an interesting question. In general, there's a trade-off with wood block sizes in end grain butcher block. The bigger a block of wood, the more it will want to expand/contract with changes in temperature, moisture, and humidity. Wood movement is a potential source of problems (eg warping and cracking). This wood movement can be mitigated to some extent by the way the maker lines up the wood grain of the various blocks to offset wood tension. But... if wood movement were all we cared about, we should just use the smallest blocks of wood possible. It would save a ton of money in material, because big blocks of wood are expensive. So, to answer your question, smaller blocks = less movement.
> 
> But... the other factor is the number of glue joints. If a board is made perfectly, the glue joints should be stronger than the wood around it. But practically speaking, glue joints are a place where butcher blocks can fail. So lessening the number of glue joints is also a good idea.
> 
> For us, we've found the 'sweet spot' to be blocks that are roughly 4" long X 1 3/4" wide. It's a very expensive way to make a butcher block, because there are a lot of off-cuts in our lumber that aren't 4" wide... The average width of a 2" thick piece of maple lumber is probably around 7" wide. So we have to order special widths or come up with creative uses for all the extra off cuts (ie mosaic boards). I'm sitting on a growing mound of off-cut lumber right now, so a batch of mosaic boards are in the works.



This is all gold knowledge here. Thank you so much @John Loftis


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## playero (May 7, 2019)

I buy boards at Marshall’s. I also prefer the ones that will hold some liquid or juice from the cutting


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## Chips (May 10, 2019)

I've been a happy customer of Boardsmith for almost 7 years. I cried once and went for the biggest walnut board that was offered. No regrets, but on my hardest thinnest knives, it sometimes feels like I'm cutting on a ceramic plate. I worry about the thin edge chipping, though it hasn't yet. I can't say it feels nice when chopping fast or a rocking cut, but I know the board will outlive me.

I should probably sand the top of the board though, I mistakenly placed a washed mild steel die from my meat grinder on it, and even though I dried it, it apparently wasn't enough because the next morning I had a perfectly shaped black outline/shadow of the damn thing rusted into the wood.


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## Noodle (May 10, 2019)

Chips said:


> I've been a happy customer of Boardsmith for almost 7 years. I cried once and went for the biggest walnut board that was offered. No regrets, but on my hardest thinnest knives, it sometimes feels like I'm cutting on a ceramic plate. I worry about the thin edge chipping, though it hasn't yet. I can't say it feels nice when chopping fast or a rocking cut, but I know the board will outlive me.
> 
> I should probably sand the top of the board though, I mistakenly placed a washed mild steel die from my meat grinder on it, and even though I dried it, it apparently wasn't enough because the next morning I had a perfectly shaped black outline/shadow of the damn thing rusted into the wood.



You might want to try mixing up a slurry of Barkeepers Friend and water and dabbing or “painting” it on the stain and leaving it over night. We had butcher block counters at our old house and had many such stains left by cans of food, etc. It may not completely remove it, but it worked pretty darn well for us. What is left can just be called patina...


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## playero (May 11, 2019)

Marshall’s


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## wilburh (May 11, 2019)

Noodle's suggestion worked pretty good for my board...Thanks!


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## HRC_64 (May 11, 2019)

playero said:


> Marshall’s



somebody zoom in on that pricetag....ENHANCE


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## Noodle (May 11, 2019)

wilburh said:


> Noodle's suggestion worked pretty good for my board...Thanks!



Happy to help.


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## playero (May 12, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> somebody zoom in on that pricetag....ENHANCE


$1,499 USD


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## rick alen (May 14, 2019)

As far as knives go, in at least one episode they rated the Bic equal to the carbon Zwillings Kramer in every way - knife-credibility rating established.


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## HRC_64 (May 14, 2019)

rick alen said:


> As far as knives go, in at least one episode they rated the Bic equal to the carbon Zwillings Kramer in every way - knife-credibility rating established.



Honestly, if you make $15/hour...or a culinary student, etc...its probably better to own $400 in victorinox vs $400 in a single kramer.


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## rick alen (May 14, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Honestly, if you make $15/hour...or a culinary student, etc...its probably better to own $400 in victorinox vs $400 in a single kramer.



Yes, Vic of course. No argument there, but that is not at all what they were implying. They actually stated no difference in edge quality or retention!


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## Jlc88 (May 14, 2019)

Overall I enjoy their recommendations. When it comes to knives I don’t think we are the target demographic lol


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## Chef Doom (May 14, 2019)

rick alen said:


> Yes, Vic of course. No argument there, but that is not at all what they were implying. They actually stated no difference in edge quality or retention!


I do not support this message.


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