# Tsushima instead of Aoto...?



## Jpox (Nov 29, 2014)

I have a Tsushima stone arriving next week. Has anyone experience with Tsushima?
My aim was to finish of the Tsushima in a simple daily knife setup, much the way an Aoto is used.


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## JBroida (Nov 29, 2014)

not at all like an aoto... generally harder, and often finer... but the finish is much less smooth and the kasumi finish of of most tsushima i have tried is nothing like the kasumi finish off of many aoto i have. There are many other stones more similar to aoto than tsushima. Honestly, they are very often used as nagura because they work extremely well for that. I also like them for some uraoshi sharpening, as well as microbevels.


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## Jpox (Nov 29, 2014)

So what you say is, that you prefer the finish from aoto?


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## Dave Martell (Nov 29, 2014)

I agree with Jon 100%. 

They're just not well suited for sharpening knives or even making them look pretty. Maybe for a real thin edge (like a micro-bevel) but besides that they're too hard for my taste.


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## Asteger (Nov 29, 2014)

Jpox said:


> So what you say is, that you prefer the finish from aoto?



I would, so long as it's a good aoto. Aoto are hit and miss, though, so be careful.

Some aoto are harder, some softer, but if you have a good one it'll feel a lot better on a knife than a Tsushima, leave a better finish (contrast, kasumi, etc) and also give an edge that's more appropriate for knives, while as above Tsushima are on the finer side, so probably getting too fine for most purposes. 

Tsushima are also called black nagura, and they're good for that and, generally, liked because of how clean and consistent they are. I've owned 2 big Tsushima, and 2 small slurry nagura, and also have never heard of an inconsistent or bad Tsushima. Let me see... I haven't used mine in a while, but from what I remember they grip too much when sharpening. Your knife won't glide well on the stone as you use it. And the finish is unremarkable. 

For knives a Tsushima would be useful, though, to erase coarser scratches before finishing on another stone, if you like that. I'm not really a razor user, but I think Tsushima are also appealling for razors because of how clean and reliable they are.


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## designdog (Nov 29, 2014)

Agree with your comments. The problem becomes, what stone do you use if you can't find a good quality aoto? Let's say most of your knives are double bevel, but you do have the occasional need for a kasumi finish on the odd wide single bevel...?


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## Jpox (Nov 29, 2014)

I have looked for a good aoto bud didn't find one. Also many of the descriptions I read about aotos was not that good either...
That's why I decided on this Tsushima, but when I read the above posts, I think that it may not be completely what I look for. Yet I hope it wil turn out alright. Being on the harder side is not necessarily a problem for me, but of course sharpening qualities and finish matters... Another thing that's confusing me, is that I've seen this stone described as being a 2-3k grit like stone to a 6-8k grit like stone??


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## chinacats (Nov 29, 2014)

Maybe if used with an appropriate nagura?


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## Asteger (Nov 30, 2014)

Jpox said:


> I have looked for a good aoto bud didn't find one. Also many of the descriptions I read about aotos was not that good either...
> That's why I decided on this Tsushima, but when I read the above posts, I think that it may not be completely what I look for. Yet I hope it wil turn out alright. Being on the harder side is not necessarily a problem for me, but of course sharpening qualities and finish matters... Another thing that's confusing me, is that I've seen this stone described as being a 2-3k grit like stone to a 6-8k grit like stone??





chinacats said:


> Maybe if used with an appropriate nagura?



Nagura for slurry are useful in many ways, but I think the base stone will still feel the same underneath.

Any Tsushima will definitely be toward the finer end of what you mentioned, Jpox. Actually, there have been other types of stones mined from Tsushima (an island, between Japan and Korea) but they're so rare they're unheard of, and so aren't a concern.

'Traditional' aoto are unique in that they're medium knife finishers which are layered, and the layers are pointed upward so that they're perpendicular to the sharpening surface. (Flat, they wouldn't do much, but sharpening along them there's more abrasion.) As you sharpen along all those layers, it's naturally going to be inconsistent, and so it's one reason they're variable. 

There have been many other medium stones mined in Japan, and so there are other possibilities, but it'll be hard to get them as they're rarely sold overseas.


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## Jpox (Dec 1, 2014)

The stone will arrive tomorrow. Then I will post what I think of it...


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## Jpox (Dec 7, 2014)

I agree with all of you... The finish from the stone is not spectacular. The hardness is not a problem, but I had hoped I would be less fine...
The use of a nagura greatly improves both the feeling and the sharpening quality. I tried different ones, asano, tomo. Even one of the synthetic chosera nagura. Used with a nagura,I can use it the way I liked, as a daily touch up stone, but I regret not having been able to try a good aoto before I made my decision on this one...
Perhaps it will also useful for removing scratches from coarser stones as you said asteger. I didn't have so much time to find out yet.


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## Asteger (Dec 7, 2014)

If you have a bit of a collection, I say don't worry too much. Some stones seem immediately useful, and other times it takes a while before you figure out the best way to use them.

For what it's worth, I pulled out mine for the first time in a while and had a whirl again. I used a small Tsushima on it for slurry (so a true tomonagura) and it did help a lot. I don't know where you bought yours, but mine isn't a large JNS Tsushima; it's smaller and feels a bit different. In fact it might be one of the ones mined from the sea. They were mined from the land and also underwater off the island, and the sea-versions I think are supposed to be a bit softer but more delicate and prone to cracking. Mine might be one of these, and I actually enjoyed trying it again.


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## designdog (Dec 8, 2014)

JBroida said:


> There are many other stones more similar to aoto than tsushima.



Jon,

What are they? Got any for sale?:hungry:


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## JBroida (Dec 8, 2014)

shoot me a PM... there's a small chance i have something around here


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## GreyBoy (Dec 20, 2019)

Hey guys. Question: how hard is "hard"?

Say, compared to the Shapton Glass line? I have a 1000 of that line and it seems fairly hard. I like it a lot. I have a finer stone that's harder (Naniwa Super, 10,000). I like that one too.

...looking to breach the waters of natural stones ...


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## Marcelo Amaral (Dec 20, 2019)

Hi there, GreyBoy. 

Never used Shapton Glass, but i would say it is a bit harder than Maksim's lvl3.5. I would say, probably, lvl4. 
They are not the hardest stones there are, but i can say that when i started using jnats, it felt harder than i was comfortable with. 
I had great results using it as a sharpening stone (no polishing) on a Kochi 270mm kurouchi gyuto, leaving something around 5k-8k finish, but with teeth enough to slice tomatoes easily. It's not a fast stone, though.


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## lemeneid (Dec 20, 2019)

GreyBoy said:


> Hey guys. Question: how hard is "hard"?
> 
> Say, compared to the Shapton Glass line? I have a 1000 of that line and it seems fairly hard. I like it a lot. I have a finer stone that's harder (Naniwa Super, 10,000). I like that one too.
> 
> ...looking to breach the waters of natural stones ...


If you're looking at jnats and like something hard, shoot for something like a super hard asagi.


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## KingShapton (Dec 21, 2019)

This threat is very interesting for me. As I understand it, two things are discussed here simultaneously, polishing and sharpening.

Perhaps it would be better to separate these two aspects. As I understand it so far, the Tsushima is generally harder than most like here and is not so good for polishing / Kasumi, here a (good) Aoto is obviously more suitable ?!

If we only talk about sharpening, double beveled knives and an aggressive edge with a lot of bite, how do you think the Tsushima is suitable for this?

I have to add, I like hard natural stones and have no problem even with a hard Arkansas.



Marcelo Amaral said:


> I had great results using it as a sharpening stone (no polishing) on a Kochi 270mm kurouchi gyuto, leaving something around 5k-8k finish, but with teeth enough to slice tomatoes easily. It's not a fast stone, though.


That seems to answer my question, but I would really be interested in the opinion of the other members here who know a Tsushima themselves.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Dec 21, 2019)

The aotos i tried definitely leave toothier edges and are much faster, but they don't leave as refined edges as tsushimas.

I agree tsushima is not the ideal stone for sharpening as it is slower than several stones at that grit range. It leaves edges with bite enough to go through peeled vegetables (tomatoes, bell pepper etc).

My favorite stone is an ohira suita that leaves edges as refined as tsushima and it is much faster. It's more expensive, though.

So, tsushima could be a nice experience if you like harder stones and if you are sharpening for fun on blades that sharpen easily.


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## nakneker (Dec 21, 2019)

KingShapton said:


> This threat is very interesting for me. As I understand it, two things are discussed here simultaneously, polishing and sharpening.
> 
> Perhaps it would be better to separate these two aspects. As I understand it so far, the Tsushima is generally harder than most like here and is not so good for polishing / Kasumi, here a (good) Aoto is obviously more suitable ?!
> 
> ...


 I have used four different Tsushimas, I don’t polish, been sharpening for a couple years and would consider myself a beginner. Personally I like the Tsushima for sharpening, I know of three other guys that use them and like them. I’d rate it 5-6k. The ones Ive used benefit from getting a little mud going with a Nagura of some sort, I use a diamond plate just because it’s easy. They have a real earthy smell to them, they can be a little sticky but you can adjust your mud accordingly. They are reasonably priced, have few impurities and good feel, at least that’s my experience. I have some big Aotos, Aizus and Numatas I use prior to a Tsushima, works fine. Typically the Tsushimas I’ve seen are large heavy stones, lots of 210 x 80s out there and most are fairly thick. They are also inexpensive compared to many J Nats. I paid between 130-190 for mine. Not sure this helps, thought I’d share in case something I said resonates.


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## GreyBoy (Dec 26, 2019)

Wow there's a lot of good info in this thread. Helps me a lot, since I'm still a beginner. Thanks everyone

For some reason I thought polishing stones would be harder. (Of course a tsushima isn't a polishing grit, going by above info)

Anyhow, I really want to get into naturals, probably a slightly lower grit. But this stone seems like a use-it-if-it-works-for-you kind of mid-grade stone. An aoto would be reallllly cool.

G


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