# best steel



## papazaza (Apr 23, 2012)

hey guys i know theirs a million and one kinds of steel out there I'm looking to see what's the best kind of carbon i know white # 1 and 2 an blue #1 and 2 are up their 

please be gentle with explanation because I'm still learning and don't know that much yet


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## NO ChoP! (Apr 23, 2012)

"The best" for what? Rust resistance? Edge retention? Sharpness? All-arounder? Every steel has its own attributes. Every person has their own preferences. I like aogami super because it gets sharp and retains it quite well...


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## papazaza (Apr 23, 2012)

edge retention and sharpness i work in a catering hall and go thru 10 cases of vegetables on a Tuesday easy so im looking for something that can keep up


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## oivind_dahle (Apr 23, 2012)

52100 can keep up if right HT


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## olpappy (Apr 23, 2012)

A lot will depend on the heat treat, and the only way to really know how the HT came out is to test the knife's performance after it's finished. Aogami super is widely available in Japanese commercial knives as well as some very expensive honyaki pieces or custom orders from specific makers, whereas 52100 you would have to likely order a custom from an American maker. So in some ways it comes down to your budget, and whether you are looking for a Japanese style or western style knife. If you're talking custom US maker, there's also a ton of other potential steel choices like M4, 3V etc


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## Vertigo (Apr 23, 2012)

For my money, I love the way White #2 sharpens and takes a patina, and the way AS holds an edge. Haven't used 52100 though, which by all accounts is pretty spiffy.


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## oivind_dahle (Apr 23, 2012)

You can get a 52100 from Mark. Ultimatum Carbon Gyuto 245mm is 200 USD. But then again Im not sure about the quality on that knife.
Marko will make you a 52100 with superior quality for around 500 USD.

Japanese knives often uses blue or white steel, gets insane sharp, but edge retention is not that impressive. Needs babying


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## Larrin (Apr 23, 2012)

The best steel is Interstitial Free. Don't buy a knife made of anything else.


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## DevinT (Apr 23, 2012)

Larrin said:


> The best steel is Interstitial Free. Don't buy a knife made of anything else.



What are interstitials?

Hoss


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## Don Nguyen (Apr 23, 2012)

?

http://www.answers.com/topic/interstitial-free-steel


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## oivind_dahle (Apr 23, 2012)

Today I learned something new!


interstitial-free steel [&#8218;int·&#601;r&#8242;stish·&#601;l &#8242;fr&#275; &#8242;st&#275;l]
(metallurgy)
An aluminum-killed steel with an extra-low carbon content, nominally 0.005%, in which the residual carbon is combined with niobium (columbium), titanium, or some similar element with a strong affinity for carbon.


I still haven't a clue about it. I read about micro cracking in AISI 52100 Steel, but I felt like this reading about it:
http://www.thefinancialblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/monkey-computer.jpg

Larrin is perhaps nr1 when talking about steel types. I just trust his words, without ever understanding them.


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## SpikeC (Apr 23, 2012)

I smell insincerity.......


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## obtuse (Apr 23, 2012)

White no.1 look no further


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## Dave Martell (Apr 23, 2012)

Unobtanium 


BTW, that's the name of my new knife line coming out in the Fall of 2019


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## tk59 (Apr 23, 2012)

I think what Larrin wants to say is that the "best steel" question is like the best car, band, neighborhood, cereal, lollipop questions. Your best bet is to check out something like Devin's steel thread and get a steel that is best suited for the types of characteristics you are looking for. There will always be trade-offs. First, you need to decide if you like stain resistance. Then you need to decide whether you want ultimate sharpness. Then, wear resistance. Then you need to look at toughness. A poor understanding of how these qualities play out in the kitchen is why we have chipped debas, lol. Lower skill means toughness and edge stability is most important. That means lower carbon content and softer blades: AEB-L, white 2, etc. If you are a barbeque guy, maybe you want wear resistance and you go for DT-swr. If you are a sushi master, maybe you want ultimate sharpness and some wear resistance and hardness at the cost of toughness so you go for white 1 at 63+ hrc, etc., etc.


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## David Metzger (Apr 23, 2012)

I guess when you say carbon steels you are looking at non stainless steels, is that right? Most people want a steel that can get rather hard and has fine grain to make for ease of sharpening, very sharp edge and edge holding abilities. Steels like 1084, 1095, W1, W2, 52100 and 01 are popular for kitchen knives and readily available in the US. White, Blue and Aogami Super are Hitachi steels and very difficult to get in the US unless already made into a knife. 

There is a lot of info on these steels on the net. For stainless you would want something like AEB-L, 13c26, or a PM technology steel.

David


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## Larrin (Apr 23, 2012)

Interstitials are atoms that sit in the interstitial sites in an atomic lattice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstitial_defect Intersitial sites are basically the gaps between the atoms. The most common interstitials in steel are carbon and nitrogen. Interstitial free steels are super low carbon along with an addition of something like niobium or titanium to form Nb(C,N) or Ti(C,N) to get rid of the rest of it.


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## mpukas (Apr 23, 2012)

papazaza said:


> edge retention and sharpness i work in a catering hall and go thru 10 cases of vegetables on a Tuesday easy so im looking for something that can keep up



Steel comes down to so much personal preference, and many previsou posts above state that. Steel is also only one aspect of what makes a knife,a nd for most of use it's farther down the priority list - there are other factors that have to be "right" even before steel comes into play. 

Personally, I really like AS as it gets sharp easily and has good retentnion, but if it's really hard like 64-65, and with low bevel angles, it can be chippy. But I can't stand an AS knife clad w/ crappy iron cladding that rusts and reats easily w/ food (read: Moritaka, and much as I love 'em), and there aren't many options for a SS clad AS knife. PM steels also have good retention and get sharp, not as sharp as white, and require a bit more work and skill to get sharp. 

Perhaps a better question for you to ask is what knife is best for me, given my preferences, budget and the tasks I intend to put it through? mpp


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## Larrin (Apr 23, 2012)

Oh I forgot to say that IF steels would be terrible for knives.


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## SpikeC (Apr 23, 2012)

What? Just because they don't have carbon???


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## Eamon Burke (Apr 23, 2012)

Yeah, Papazaza, at least give us a knife type so we have something to argue about.


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## Namaxy (Apr 23, 2012)

Two questions...which I hope aren't ridiculously ignorant:

I have aogami super in a Takeda - I'm very fond of it and it does have great edge retention. I've seen AS as the core for a damascus clad knife, and of course Kurouchi style like my Takeda. Is there such a thing as a honyaki AS knife without the Kurouchi finish?

Secondly, what are people's opinions about ZDP-189?

Thanks


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## Lefty (Apr 23, 2012)

Dave Martell said:


> Unobtanium



Great stuff, but awfully hard to come by....


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## papazaza (Apr 23, 2012)

BurkeCutlery said:


> Yeah, Papazaza, at least give us a knife type so we have something to argue about.



ok what would you like 2 know ?


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## Eamon Burke (Apr 23, 2012)

Give us a knife type. Like "best steel for a chef's knife in a pro kitchen" or "best steel for a home butcher" or "best steel for a fishing boat" or "best steel for a yanagiba in an American sushi bar".


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## Rottman (Apr 23, 2012)

mpukas said:


> and there aren't many options for a SS clad AS knife.


Carter, Hiromoto


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## tk59 (Apr 23, 2012)

Namaxy said:


> ...Is there such a thing as a honyaki AS knife without the Kurouchi finish?
> 
> Secondly, what are people's opinions about ZDP-189?...



On the first one, I don't see why not but I haven't seen one, myself. ZDP-189 is a nice steel but it is prone to chipping and many claim that it loses it's initial keeness more quickly than most other steels. I like it. RRLOVER has a nice blade he put up for sale a while back. Kinda pricey but it's a nice knife.


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## papazaza (Apr 23, 2012)

ok im looking for the best steel for a wa gyuto in a pro kitchen


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## oivind_dahle (Apr 23, 2012)

There is no best.
Its all about what you're looking for.


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## papazaza (Apr 23, 2012)

edge retention and sharpness.


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## El Pescador (Apr 23, 2012)

That's easy...For me its Devin Thomas' Super Wear Resistant or his Carbon Mystery Steel. The Mystery Carbon holds an edge for what seems like ever. I cut 2,000+ pounds of cooked lamb with a bbq bark with it only touching it up 1 once on a strop. TK59 was there for a day of cutting so he can attest.

Pesky


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## James (Apr 23, 2012)

papazaza said:


> ok im looking for the best steel for a wa gyuto in a pro kitchen



ok, I think it would be helpful to address the following:
1) what is your budget?
2) how many hours do you expect to be cutting per day/how often can you do touchups or give your knife a full sharpening session?
3) carbon or stainless?
4) what kind of board do you cut on?
5) what is your normal cutting style (push cut, rock chop, etc)?

Like so many others have said, there is no "best"; some steels are more suitable to certain tasks than others. Personally, I think you're getting too carried away with steel; it's only one part of the equation. Consider knife geometry and profile. I would prefer a knife with a mediocre steel, but excellent geometry and profile to a clunker made out of some top-notch steel. Oh and the performance of the steel is very strongly influenced by the quality of the heat treat.


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## ajhuff (Apr 23, 2012)

Interatitial free steel! ROTFLMFAO!!!

I'll say it again: steel is over rated.

Buy a knife, not a steel.

-AJ


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## ThEoRy (Apr 23, 2012)

papazaza said:


> ok im looking for the best steel for a wa gyuto in a pro kitchen



Oh ok why didn't you say so? I would have to go with Blue#1, Blue#2, White#1, White#2, Aogami SS, VG10, SG2, Aeb-l, 52100, W2, ZDP-189, Ginsanko and R2. But that's it!

Seriously though, I can't say any one thing is best. They all have great qualities.


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## markenki (Apr 23, 2012)

Rottman said:


> Carter, Hiromoto


Carter no longer makes AS knives.

From http://www.cartercutlery.com/NewsLetterArchive/2012-01-26_NewsArchive.html:
At Carter Cutlery, after having forged and completed more than 16,000 blades in 24 years out of both steels, Murray has decided to drop blue steel from his repertoire in favor of dedicating the rest of his career to truly mastering white steel and harnessing its full potential.


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## SpikeC (Apr 23, 2012)

What's wrong with O1???


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## Eamon Burke (Apr 23, 2012)

Japanese, Aogami Super.
American, 52100.
Stainless, s35vn.

Of course you need a good heat treat.


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## kalaeb (Apr 23, 2012)

For gyuto, I dislike white 1 and 2, so much so I have sold off all my white steel knives. The retention is just not that good. On a yanigaba, maybe but with a work horse gyuto you really want some edge longevity. If you want carbon, go AS, or if you can go higher end W2 or 52100. If you want stainless, I have had good results with AEBL, but that could be because it's a DT. 

Good luck


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## papazaza (Apr 23, 2012)

yea i know they all have their good nd bad quality's .....i guess what i was looking for was a quick explanations as to what made each one one good and why these were the top ones


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## DevinT (Apr 23, 2012)

This might help.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/4772-what-steels-and-why

Hoss


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## memorael (Apr 23, 2012)

Seriously you will do fine with just about any SS wa knife. Tadatsuna, DT mid tech AEB-L , A type, Suisin... those come to mind but they all have a basically all round characteristic to them. I would personally go with the Tadatsuna or the A type if budget is a problem and a DT AEB-L if it isn't.


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## mattrud (Apr 23, 2012)

DevinT said:


> This might help.
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/4772-what-steels-and-why
> 
> Hoss



I have always loved this thread.


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## cnochef (Apr 23, 2012)

If you are looking for a wa-handled knife, then I would recommend a Takeda in AS steel. It is 100% hand made, is easy to sharpen, is extremely sharp and stays that way for a long long time. You can refresh the edge quickly and easily with a strop. The kurouchi finish protects most of the blade from corrosion, so you only have to worry about the edge really. The blades are supermodel thin and make for precision cutting. These knives are also great compared to other carbon steels as they are not as reactive when cutting onions or acidic fruit.

The only drawback is their rustic appearance, which can freak out folks who don`t know about them.

If that is a concern, I would recommend a Devin Thomas gyuto in AEB-L steel, which behaves very close to a good carbon steel.


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## NO ChoP! (Apr 23, 2012)

Semi stainless is a good balance for a pro kitchen....


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2012)

kalaeb said:


> For gyuto, I dislike white 1 and 2, so much so I have sold off all my white steel knives. The retention is just not that good. On a yanigaba, maybe but with a work horse gyuto you really want some edge longevity. If you want carbon, go AS, or if you can go higher end W2 or 52100. If you want stainless, I have had good results with AEBL, but that could be becauseit's a DT.
> 
> I have come to the exact same conclusion. Work is hectic and the edges on my white steels werent lasting long enough. My Suisin Inox Honyaki is my new "go to" knife. along with augami super and blue steel. Atleast for now.


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## ThEoRy (Apr 23, 2012)

For gyuto I like R2.


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## papazaza (Apr 23, 2012)

ok so where can a find some of these knifes?


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2012)

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/ashi-hamono.html the stainless knifes are AEB-L
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives/zakuri.html great blue steel and augami super steel knives.
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KAGAYAKICarboNextSeries.html bargain friendly semi stainless.
konosuke hd is another popular semi stainless that cost a little more.
also maybe check out the sakai yusuke store on ebay for more swedish steel knives. Maybe you should just shoot jon at japaneseknifeimports an email and he can help you with your knife selection.


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## Eamon Burke (Apr 24, 2012)

papazaza said:


> i guess what i was looking for was a quick explanations as to ... why these were the top ones



Personal bias. The ones I listed are because I liked them when I used them, I liked the way they take a patina, hold an edge, how they sound when sharpening, how the edge refreshes, etc. We're just splitting hairs at this point, but that's what we are here for, after all. If you are looking for good performance, think makers, not steels. The heat treat is so much more important. Do you want Chocolate from the finest, rarest cacao beans in the world after they've been run through the Nestle factory or do you want whatever cacao beans were laying around in the kitchen of a master Chocolatier?


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## GlassEye (Apr 24, 2012)

BurkeCutlery said:


> Do you want Chocolate from the finest, rarest cacao beans in the world after they've been run through the Nestle factory or do you want whatever cacao beans were laying around in the kitchen of a master Chocolatier?


Interesting analogy, I like it.


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## TB_London (Apr 24, 2012)

Some more reading for you: (hope it's ok with the mods to link off forum)

http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/articles/kkchoser/kksteel.shtml

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/809833/
(scroll down to steel section)


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## ajhuff (Apr 24, 2012)

These topics always make me bang my head. Maybe it's my background but I just don't get people's frequent recommendations regarding heat treatment. As a consumer you have no way to quantify or qualify the heat treatment of a knife. The knife either works to your satisfaction or it doesn't. People should recommend knives based on performance criteria they liked, not the steel or suggestions of proper heat treatment.

Buy a good knife. The good knives are made by people using good steel and good heat treatment. The ones that don't, don't stay in business. 

-AJ


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## papazaza (Apr 24, 2012)

n


BurkeCutlery said:


> Personal bias. The ones I listed are because I liked them when I used them, I liked the way they take a patina, hold an edge, how they sound when sharpening, how the edge refreshes, etc. We're just splitting hairs at this point, but that's what we are here for, after all. If you are looking for good performance, think makers, not steels. The heat treat is so much more important. Do you want Chocolate from the finest, rarest cacao beans in the world after they've been run through the Nestle factory or do you want whatever cacao beans were laying around in the kitchen of a master Chocolatier?



yea that was another question i was gonna ask ...like if company 1A makes a 240mm wa gyuto for and company 2B makes a 240mm wa gyuto for and the both use blue steel #1 how come one charges more money then the other


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 24, 2012)

papazaza said:


> n
> 
> yea that was another question i was gonna ask ...like if company 1A makes a 240mm wa gyuto for and company 2B makes a 240mm wa gyuto for and the both use blue steel #1 how come one charges more money then the other



The same reason a Porsche costs more than a VW. Yes, they will both get you to your destination, but the difference is in the details. Same thing applies to knives, or it usually does. 

Rick


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## papazaza (Apr 24, 2012)

so 1 of the things that makes 1 knife more expensive then another work be the heat treatment ?


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## SpikeC (Apr 24, 2012)

The thing that makes some knives more expensive is that the good ones are quenched in peasant bodies.


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## Crothcipt (Apr 24, 2012)

:spitcoffee:


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 24, 2012)

papazaza said:


> so 1 of the things that makes 1 knife more expensive then another work be the heat treatment ?



The skill of the person making the knife in regard to heat treatment and grinding, the attention to detail that is spent on fit and finish, the degree of polish given to the side of the blade, the materials that the handle is made from, all enter into the price equation. The reputation of the smith is also a factor. In the end, the steel the knife is make from is the least of these factors.


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## Eamon Burke (Apr 24, 2012)

lus1:
Then there is always "what people will pay". See: Misono prices.



ajhuff said:


> Buy a good knife. The good knives are made by people using good steel and good heat treatment. The ones that don't, don't stay in business.
> 
> -AJ



I don't agree on that one. Farberware? This guy?


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## Crothcipt (Apr 24, 2012)

:whyclick::butbutbut::no:

Am I the only one here that wants to have one of his knives, just to trash?


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## SpikeC (Apr 24, 2012)

+100.


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## SpikeC (Apr 24, 2012)

How do you trash trash?


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## ajhuff (Apr 24, 2012)

BurkeCutlery said:


> lus1:
> Then there is always "what people will pay". See: Misono prices.
> 
> 
> ...



Ah ah ah, I said first, "buy a good knife." If you start there, then concerns about steel and heat treatment are meaningless. More so since Faberware knives are stamped and therefore not heat treated. :happymug:

-AJ


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 24, 2012)

ajhuff said:


> ... Faberware knives are stamped and therefore not heat treated.
> 
> -AJ



Huh? Maybe not *forged*, but they are certainly heat treated.


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## Andrew H (Apr 24, 2012)

ajhuff said:


> Ah ah ah, I said first, "buy a good knife." If you start there, then concerns about steel and heat treatment are meaningless. More so since Faberware knives are stamped and therefore not heat treated. :happymug:
> 
> -AJ



?? Do you mean the steel is heat treated before it's stamped? Obviously the steel that the knives are made of was HT'd at one point.


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## memorael (Apr 24, 2012)

SpikeC said:


> The thing that makes some knives more expensive is that the good ones are quenched in peasant bodies.



Isn't this true of Katanas? I remember hearing something about some swords being quenched this way... maybe there is something to it, need to talk to DT about maybe trying it out with some volunteers.


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## ajhuff (Apr 24, 2012)

Andrew H said:


> ?? Do you mean the steel is heat treated before it's stamped? Obviously the steel that the knives are made of was HT'd at one point.



Obviously? Why do you say that?

-AJ


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## DevinT (Apr 24, 2012)

Not me, thanks.

I only quench in the urine of a red headed holy man.

Hoss


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## kalaeb (Apr 24, 2012)

DevinT said:


> Not me, thanks.
> 
> I only quench in the urine of a red headed holy man.
> 
> Hoss



Sounds tough. Can't be many of those in Panaca.


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## SpikeC (Apr 24, 2012)

You have to mail order.....


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## ajhuff (Apr 25, 2012)

Ok here is why I don't think it is obvious that these cheap stamped knives, Ronco, Farberware, etc are heat treated.

1) They are stamped. Key to stamping is to not have a hard material, it has to be easily deformed.

2) If they were heat treated after stamping, as thin as the cheap knives are, they would be warped all to hell.

3) You guys are always complaining how gummy soft these knives are and how they don't hold an edge. If they are a martensitic steel (like 420) fully annealed they are around 25 HRc. Somebody like Dexter may take the time to Q&T which will push it up to around 40, but that will be done prior to stamping and isn't really the type of heat treating we are talking about. But if some of these cheap knives are made out of classic 18/8 (like 302), and I don't know if they are or aren't, that material is available cold rolled full hard with a HRc of about 40. No extra HT needed.

What's a Ronco or Farberware made of?

-AJ


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## design (Feb 18, 2020)

Blue nr1. Gets very sharp , and keeps an edge, allso don't rust in 3 seconds. It's high carbon, dont abuse it. I own several from IBUKI BLADES JAPAN.


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## bkultra (Feb 18, 2020)

@design come forth new member and old thread, be seen. 

Welcome to the forum, but surely you could have found a more recent "best steel" thread... There's hundreds of them


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