# Takeda or Shibata bunka?



## Viggetorr (Jun 25, 2017)

Hi,

I'm trying to decide wether I should buy the Takeda 170mm bunka or the Shibata 175mm bunka. I will use it for vegetable prep and lighter protein (chicken breasts), where I hear the two knives have similar performance. My question is if the Takeda will be at a disadvantage for finely mincing garlic/ginger (which I do a lot) due to it's shorter k-tip and more "blunt" shape? I prefer the looks of the Takeda, but if the Shibata would be a superior knife for my purposes I will go with it instead.

Price difference and maintenance issues (rust) aren't a big consideration.

Takeda: http://www.**************.com/tastclbu.html
Shibata: http://www.**************.com/shkobu17.html


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## daveb (Jun 25, 2017)

Welcome to the forum. Are you set on one of these or are you shopping? There's more than one knife store.


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## Matus (Jun 26, 2017)

Welcome!

As lovely as Takedas may be (when done right), they seem to come with way too thick grind and wonky forging work and thinning them is quite some work - if I were to buy one, I would want to check it in person. I often mince garlic with a nakiri, so the tip should not be an issue.

And, yeah, that site is blocked here. Google around if you want to know more.


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## Viggetorr (Jun 26, 2017)

daveb said:


> Welcome to the forum. Are you set on one of these or are you shopping? There's more than one knife store.



I consider myself mostly set, but I won't object to other suggestions!

Sorry about the links, I am in no way set in shopping from that particular site, it was just a an easy way to refer to the knives.


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## Viggetorr (Jun 26, 2017)

Matus said:


> Welcome!
> 
> As lovely as Takedas may be (when done right), they seem to come with way too thick grind and wonky forging work and thinning them is quite some work - if I were to buy one, I would want to check it in person. I often mince garlic with a nakiri, so the tip should not be an issue.



Thick? I was under the impression they have an extremely thin profile.


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## JaVa (Jun 26, 2017)

There's been some Kotetsu love floating around here at times and what I've understood is for a good reason. That would be a much safer option of those two and luckily it can be found from other vendors too.


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## Marek07 (Jun 26, 2017)

JaVa said:


> There's been some Kotetsu love floating around here at times and what I've understood is for a good reason. That would be a much safer option of those two and luckily it can be found from other vendors too.


+1 
Welcome to the forum.
Can't comment on the Takeda as I haven't tried it. The profile appears similar to the Shibata but costs more and is made from Aogami Super. The Shibata is a PM steel - R2 - so holds a great edge and is low maintenance. I embraced it quickly when I got it but I'm not a pro and came from using santokus. No longer use them as I now always go to the Shibata. 
Caution: as an R2, it's not good for rock chopping if that's what you do.


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## Viggetorr (Jun 26, 2017)

JaVa said:


> There's been some Kotetsu love floating around here at times and what I've understood is for a good reason. That would be a much safer option of those two and luckily it can be found from other vendors too.



Safer in what way (apart from being SS)?


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## Viggetorr (Jun 26, 2017)

Edit


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## Viggetorr (Jun 26, 2017)

daveb said:


> Welcome to the forum. Are you set on one of these or are you shopping? There's more than one knife store.



I'm open to suggestions!


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## Viggetorr (Jun 26, 2017)

Matus said:


> Welcome!
> 
> As lovely as Takedas may be (when done right), they seem to come with way too thick grind and wonky forging work and thinning them is quite some work - if I were to buy one, I would want to check it in person. I often mince garlic with a nakiri, so the tip should not be an issue.



I was under the impression the Takeda's are very thin (albeit thicker than the kotetsus)? 

Edit: Don't ask, don't tell. DB


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## Matus (Jun 26, 2017)

Viggetorr, yes, Takedas are in general very thin, but the wide bevel grind is simply not wide enough, thus the angle of the bevel is a bit too large and the knife wedges in carrots and similar. On top of that the forging work is often not even. Even if you see (as in the video above) a wide bevel of more-less constant width over the length of the knife, there actually may be a local variation to the angle of that bevel to actually hide sub-par forging. Otherwise Takedas (with apparently some few exceptions as I have heard around here) have excellent heat treat of the steel.

And the 'safer' comment concerning Shibata was going in the same direction - the Shibata will be more consistent with more even grind (that what I hear, I have not used one myself).


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## JaVa (Jun 26, 2017)

Viggetorr said:


> Safer in what way (apart from being SS)?



I haven't used either knives, but heard a lot about both, so I'm going by what I've learned from others here. Similar to what Matus said earlier, for sometime now Takedas QC hasn't been the best. There's a lot of variation in their quality. They used to be great, but nowadays to a lesser extent. 

Biggest issue seems to be they are thick behind the edge and can wedge quite a bit. If you get lucky you can get a great knife. Big IF. The Kotetsu on the other hand is a high quality product with very little variation in the end products. 

Hence, safer.

...and that's the thing with that vendor. They'll sell everything as the best thing in the universe. If you're fine with that then OK, but it's still good to know. Luckily there are other vendors here who are straight forward of the products they sell.


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## StonedEdge (Jun 26, 2017)

I still don't have a clue what a bunka is designed for, anyone care to enlighten this layman?


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## Mucho Bocho (Jun 26, 2017)

I had the Takeda Bunka from about five years ago and DaveB summary is exactly my experience.


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## Krassi (Jun 26, 2017)

Hi!

We just had a cologne knife night with 7 dudes, tons of knifes and stones and 2 sharpening systems, and we compared a new shiro kamo r2 knife with my Kotetsu Bunka and made 4 comparison videos.
you can check them out.. its full of drunken german gibberish, but you can see the kotetsu in action and some good closeup photos ( http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/1364/shiro-kamo-bunka-180mm-deluxe?page=2&scrollTo=32763 ) i hope its ok to refer to this otherwise delete the link.

my Kotetsu is one of my favorite knifes.. we gave it a solid 18 degree micro bevel per side with a ohira shiro suita and a possibly okudo awesedo. this neutralises chipping and its still hyper sharp.
best regards, daniel


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## zetieum (Jun 27, 2017)

Matus said:


> As lovely as Takedas may be (when done right), they seem to come with way too thick grind and wonky forging work and thinning them is quite some work - if I were to buy one, I would want to check it in person. I often mince garlic with a nakiri, so the tip should not be an issue.



THAT is very true. Even more true if you go for the NAS version of the takeda (stainless clad). Currently, a Takdeda not thinned is just a wedge monster.


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## Viggetorr (Jun 27, 2017)

JaVa said:


> ...and that's the thing with that vendor. They'll sell everything as the best thing in the universe. If you're fine with that then OK, but it's still good to know. Luckily there are other vendors here who are straight forward of the products they sell.



Interesting, thanks for the info! Could you (in a PM if that's required by the rules) point me in the direction of a more serious vendor of Takedas? How about C***boknives.com?



Mucho Bocho said:


> I had the Takeda Bunka from about five years ago and DaveB summary is exactly my experience.



Do you mean JaVa's, or did DaveB write something I am missing? I am still feeling a little lost in this forum, truth be told!


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## cyberbaton (Jun 27, 2017)

I think you can buy it directly from takeda. 
http://takedahamono.com/english/


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## daveb (Jun 27, 2017)

Viggetorr said:


> Interesting, thanks for the info! Could you (in a PM if that's required by the rules) point me in the direction of a more serious vendor of Takedas? How about C***boknives.com?



I think it is as much or more a maker issue as it is a vendor issue. Takedas were once a pinnacle of tall thin knives that whispered through product. More recently they've thickened up, qa has become more spotty. The only valid complaint with the vendor (in this instance) is letting the off knives get to the consumer instead of performing in-house qa. The vendor will accept returns but it's been said he has been a pia about it. I like to think our sponsoring vendors would catch a knife that was not up to spec and return it to the maker without ever involving a consumer or if one does slip by they will readily accept a return.




Viggetorr said:


> Do you mean JaVa's, or did DaveB write something I am missing? I am still feeling a little lost in this forum, truth be told!



I wondered if I wrote something that I was missing. Me thinks Dennis just missed that Matus was the author of the germane post.


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## OneStaple (Jun 27, 2017)

I have been very pleased with the performance of my Kotetsu bunka. One of my go-to knives in my meager arsenal. I consider myself a newbie around here though and haven't handled a Takeda, so take that with a grain of salt.

Good luck!

Tyler


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## sergeysus (Jun 27, 2017)

If you are set on Takeda and just starting out your knife journey then my advice is just that "Good Luck". Its really a craps shoot with his knife and there have been many threads about it on this forum.

However, if you do happen to find a Takeda in good 'condition' then its a knife that you will love. I have a bunka, got it several years ago and its done just right has a forged hollow, very light, thin and nimble for detail work. Its a veggie killer.


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## Matus (Jun 28, 2017)

I would only add that THAT is how Takeda is supposed to be ground. I myself and working on one - the bevel was originally only some 6 - 7 mm wide, now it is 10+ mm.


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## Viggetorr (Jun 28, 2017)

daveb said:


> I think it is as much or more a maker issue as it is a vendor issue. Takedas were once a pinnacle of tall thin knives that whispered through product. More recently they've thickened up, qa has become more spotty. The only valid complaint with the vendor (in this instance) is letting the off knives get to the consumer instead of performing in-house qa. The vendor will accept returns but it's been said he has been a pia about it. I like to think our sponsoring vendors would catch a knife that was not up to spec and return it to the maker without ever involving a consumer or if one does slip by they will readily accept a return.



Is "the vendor" in this case referring to the Website who could not be named or C****knives.com?

Do you know of any of the sponsored vendor that sell Takedas that you could recommend?


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## Viggetorr (Jun 28, 2017)

sergeysus said:


> If you are set on Takeda and just starting out your knife journey then my advice is just that "Good Luck". Its really a craps shoot with his knife and there have been many threads about it on this forum.
> 
> However, if you do happen to find a Takeda in good 'condition' then its a knife that you will love. I have a bunka, got it several years ago and its done just right has a forged hollow, very light, thin and nimble for detail work. Its a veggie killer.



Beautiful, thanks for the pictures! I did recieve a picture of a Takeda for sale from a vendor. I will request a coil shot like the one you sent to check how it is forged. They did provide a "side shot", see the picture below. From the picture, do you think it looks good? Will post the coil shot once I get it.






I also got this picture from the site that must not be named, byt their bevels seem to be much smaller, right?


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## zetieum (Jun 28, 2017)

A quick and dirty photoshop suggests that the bevels are the same height.


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## Viggetorr (Jun 28, 2017)

zetieum said:


> A quick and dirty photoshop suggests that the bevels are the same height.



Seems you are right! Can you using the same PS magic estimate the height of the bevel (and possibly make any judgements about it)?


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## zetieum (Jun 28, 2017)

Frankly, I have Shibata 240mm, I tried a 210mm, I tried 2 bunkas. They are excellent laser with a much better food release than one can expect from a so thin knives. All the line is good. But those are super super thin. You have to like lasers.

I also have a takeda 270mm but with the old good grind: it is one of my best knife. I bought a Takeda AS small guyto (recent grind) mostly because I could have it for very little money: it is a wedge monster that I could not think of using. It is currently professionally thinned by a friendly, excellent, efficient and that gave you very good advices hobbyist carftman of the forums . Many have had recent Takedas thinned (there are a lot of thread about it) to transform wedge monster in super performers. 

And PS says 5-7mm, which translate in: the knife will be poor performer when it comes to hard ingredients, except if you handle it like a hammer on the board.


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## Viggetorr (Jun 28, 2017)

zetieum said:


> I also have a takeda 270mm but with the old good grind: it is one of my best knife. I bought a Takeda AS small guyto (recent grind) mostly because I could have it for very little money: it is a wedge monster that I could not think of using.
> And PS says 5-7mm, which translate in: the knife will be poor performer when it comes to hard ingredients, except if you handle it like a hammer on the board.



That is a shame. I raised these concerns with CKTG and got the reply that "Takeda had a few problems about 2 years ago but the guy that was not doing a good job is gone. They've been really good since.
He's an excellent blacksmith and makes some of the best knives on our website." Guess they were honey coating.


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## zetieum (Jun 28, 2017)

Viggetorr said:


> That is a shame. I raised these concerns with CKTG and got the reply that "Takeda had a few problems about 2 years ago but the guy that was not doing a good job is gone. They've been really good since.
> He's an excellent blacksmith and makes some of the best knives on our website."



Well to give some nuances. It is not the short bevel that is the main problem. The problem is how thick is the knife at the top of the bevel. Maybe they make it much thinner now. I do not know. A choil shoot or, more informative a measured of the weight of the shoulders would be the best, IMHO. If you order one, I would very much suggest that you ask if you can return it and get refund.


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## Viggetorr (Jun 28, 2017)

zetieum said:


> Well to give some nuances. It is not the short bevel that is the main problem. The problem is how thick is the knife at the top of the bevel. Maybe they make it much thinner now. I do not know. A choil shoot or, more informative a measured of the weight of the shoulders would be the best, IMHO.



I understand. I asked them for the measurements of his blade now (mentioning that my other option was to buy a Shibata locally) and was encouraged to go with the Shibata, lol. I guess I'm not gonna get anywhere with his Takedas.


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## sergeysus (Jun 28, 2017)

^^ +1

I would not measure by Photoshop. Those grinds in photos look similar to the rest of the knives produced that everyone complains about. If you really have your heart set on Takeda - *buy it and be prepared to send it out to get thinned*. Its not that much of a big deal if you are going to keep it.

Im never going to sell the bunka, its that good.

Recently, I had a Takeda gyoto that I had sitting around and not used it much. I had Jon thin it and he did an amazing job. 

You can buy it and just have it sent straight to Jon or even back to Takeda if you want to wait.

here is a before and after which also has the bunka in it:







The knife after a spa treatment from Jon:


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## Marek07 (Jun 28, 2017)

sergeysus said:


> .....
> Recently, I had a Takeda gyoto that I had sitting around and not used it much. I had Jon thin it and he did an amazing job.
> .....
> The knife after a spa treatment from Jon:


Great work Jon. Wish I lived in your neck of the woods.


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## Viggetorr (Jun 28, 2017)

Sergeysus: Yes, it's looking more and more like it. Is Jon "Matus"?


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## sergeysus (Jun 28, 2017)

Viggetorr said:


> Sergeysus: Yes, it's looking more and more like it. Is Jon "Matus"?



its Jon from Japanese Knife Imports.


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## Viggetorr (Jun 29, 2017)

Ah, thanks!

Found a supplier that provided these coil shots of Takedas in their inventory. What do you guys think? They don't look too thick behind the bevel to me (even if the bevel isn't as tall as Sergeysus, but I guess that can be fixed). But at least I wouldn't have any (major) problems with wedging, right?

Bunka 1: 








Bunka 2: 








Which one would you prefer? I'm leaning towards 1, but I'll leave it to the experts!


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 8, 2017)

How tall are the Takeda 240 gyutos, on average? No one seems to have measurements up, though they're certainly quite tall.


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## XooMG (Jul 8, 2017)

A bevel does not need to be tall. In fact, if the thickness is right, a short bevel will cut even better. I am not a good judge of choil pics though.


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## wind88 (Jul 8, 2017)

My Takeda 240 is around 68mm tall....yes, it's more of a santoku than a gyuto.


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## Viggetorr (Jul 9, 2017)

XooMG said:


> A bevel does not need to be tall. In fact, if the thickness is right, a short bevel will cut even better.



Could you explain why? Shouldn't a taller bevel generally mean a thinner one as well, and therefore a sharper knife (provided that the blade is fairly thin to begin with, as the Takedas are)?


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## XooMG (Jul 9, 2017)

There is more to a knife than thinness. If the bevel is too acute and the uninterrupted cutting surface too great, there will not be enough separation in a cut to mitigate the suction cup effect.

If the bevel acuity is constant, a shorter bevel means a thinner shinogi. Consider the balance of cutting properties before concluding whether greater bevel acuity is a benefit (it sometimes is).

Without precise measurements, I cannot speculate about the Takeda knives pictured.



Viggetorr said:


> Could you explain why? Shouldn't a taller bevel generally mean a thinner one as well, and therefore a sharper knife (provided that the blade is fairly thin to begin with, as the Takedas are)?


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## milkbaby (Jul 9, 2017)

I don't have a Takeda bunka but a 240 mm gyuto. Mine measures about 6.5 to 7 mm tall wide bevel, 1 to 1.2 mm wide at the shoulder of the bevel. It is forged quite thin in the hollow "flats" above the bevel.






I think many people here would look at these numbers and pic and say it's not for them. Just to remind myself of the knife, I just took it out to chop and slice a carrot and wasn't disappointed. I think in very tall hard veggies, there might be some splitting type wedging, but I'm a fan.

If you look at multiple pics and descriptions online, the one consistent thing seems to be the variation in profile and geometry. A hand forged and hand ground knife will have some variation, though some knifemakers will cut the forged billet to shape with a template, Takeda obviously doesn't. I think you have to beware that an edge profile may look flat but actually be a slow gentle continuous curve.

Edited to add: Different knives can excel using different techniques, so one knife I love may be a knife somebody else hates. 

I asked about Takeda here last fall and took a gamble. I'm a fan. Everything turned out kosher, but TBH, you probably have to be a bit of a gambler.


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## Viggetorr (Jul 10, 2017)

Thanks guys! I am indeed a bit of gambler and ordered a Takeda early last week. Should be arriving in a couple of days. Will let you know how it turns out!


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