# Khao men



## Badgertooth

This was a gamble after my interest was sparked a few months ago by a really cryptic post about Thai stones. I followed my nose a bit and came upon Aranyik. Super cool and helpful to deal with, the guy was endlessly patient with my barrage of questions, quick to respond and went the extra mile with videos of slurry and sharpening. My stones arrived today in good order. I'll admit to a certain Japanese bias when it comes these things and just the teeniest bit of apprehension when trying these.

To look at, the Khao men looks exactly like a Tsushima but that is where the similarities end.





It releases a good amount of slurry on a wide bevel and is softer and more forgiving than a Tsushima. Here is the dried slurry from about two minutes sharpening





My trusty Watanabe is always the measure of finish on a wide-bevel. Bear in mind, this is two minutes of quick work and I didn't hit all of the heel but you get the idea. It's a nice, even hazy finish from not much effort.





It finishes sharp as blazes. Finer than a Tsushima.






I got a bit philosophical about my initial apprehension - how is this any more of a crapshoot than buying any other rock from a stranger on the Internet? I'm glad I took the gamble.

I will do a separate post on the Thai binsui grade stone that I ordered but have yet to test.


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## mikedtran

Loving these natural stone posts - you are going to make a natural stone junkie out of me!


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## Badgertooth

mikedtran said:


> Loving these natural stone posts - you are going to make a natural stone junkie out of me!



Leave some for us Mike when the bug properly bites. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to non site vendors here but I'm happy to pm if not.


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## XooMG

I'd considered one of these before but did not feel like jumping through hoops to get shipping to Taiwan.


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## Badgertooth

XooMG said:


> I'd considered one of these before but did not feel like jumping through hoops to get shipping to Taiwan.



Yeah, shipping to NZ was pricey but hit him up now while he's still in Thailand with direct access to the stones. Otherwise he's posting it from Hawaii to Thailand which might be considerably more.


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## mikedtran

Sounds like you liked this better than the Tsushima?


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## Badgertooth

mikedtran said:


> Sounds like you liked this better than the Tsushima?



Yeah, tough one to make a definitive call on as one is inclined to compare them based on looks but they are different in every other way. Tsushima would not be much good for cosmetic sharpening but is hard to beat for aggressive edges you want dialled down to that upper-mid, pre-finisher level.

Khao feels better in sharpening, leaves a great looking finish and finishes finer. 

There's still a few hoops I need it to jump through before I make a final call. But these generally give me a feel for the potential of a stone

1. Iwasaki spicy Swedish
2. R2 
3. Togo reigou
4. Teruyasu Fujiwara flavoured white #1


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## mikedtran

That is quite the run of different steels!

Also your inbox is full =)


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## brainsausage

I'd like the link please


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## Badgertooth

mikedtran said:


> That is quite the run of different steels!
> 
> Also your inbox is full =)



Oops, cleared!


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## ynot1985

I googled aranyik and it gave me a place in Hawaii. Is that right?


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## mikedtran

ynot1985 said:


> I googled aranyik and it gave me a place in Hawaii. Is that right?



That is the one =)


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## ynot1985

Badgertooth said:


> Khao feels better in sharpening, leaves a great looking finish and finishes finer.



from the sounds of that, it's better in every aspects as compared to a Tsushima?... might be what I'm after as I was looking for something as fine as that but not as harsh on the polish..

how much was shipping + stone to NZ? it's a good indicator on how much it would be to get it to Oz as NZ is close enough to here


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## Badgertooth

ynot1985 said:


> from the sounds of that, it's better in every aspects as compared to a Tsushima?... might be what I'm after as I was looking for something as fine as that but not as harsh on the polish..
> 
> how much was shipping + stone to NZ? it's a good indicator on how much it would be to get it to Oz as NZ is close enough to here



Yup, then it would be a good option.

$35USD to NZ from Thailand via SAL. You're looking at more like $50 from Hawaii.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

"Khao men" mostly finds references to rice and gravy dishes, not stones?


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## Badgertooth

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "Khao men" mostly finds references to rice and gravy dishes, not stones?



Haha, Search Aranyik in Facebook or Thai natural
Stones Hawaii if all you're getting with your searches is hungry.


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## XooMG

Miles is back in Hawaii now.

I guess I am picking up a pair like yours, @Badgertooth. I need to wait a few weeks on the khao men, but I guess we'll get to see if I'm half as fortunate as you.


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## Hianyiaw

Got me tempted as well. Sent miles an email waiting for the restock of the khao men.


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## XooMG

I got updated that my stones are ready for shipping...I'll be getting them from Thailand via SAL so no idea how long it'll take, but hopefully they're interesting and fun enough to be worth the wait. I like the big black brick concept.


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## Badgertooth

Holy hell.


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## ynot1985

it that the 'regular' size?.. looks gigantic that brick


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## XooMG

Yeah that's the regular...the white binsui-esque one is about 5cm thick. The khao men is the standard "9x3x3" model.


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## Hianyiaw

Mine is on the way to me as well. :doublethumbsup:
http://imgur.com/S9SEgWs
http://imgur.com/dV7xmIh

The binsui looks small even though it's a 8.5x3.5x3 because that khao men is a beast at 11x4x4.


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## ynot1985

is everyone getting a binsui?


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## Hianyiaw

Well since it's so affordable I thought why not lol


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## XooMG

Miles does a good job of promoting them, so curiosity takes over even though the stone isn't really all that essential. Besides, it helps justify the fixed rate shipping cost.


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## ynot1985

yeah..hehe, he is doing the hard sell on me .. I wouldn't mind taking it but already have heaps of stones.. need a good reason to buy another stone I don't really need. hence why I asked as everyone seems to be buying one


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## Badgertooth

It's a great upsell. Might as well get it to spread the shipping cost. I've got the binsui and it's nice but I think there's a tonne of variation from amakusa-like to Ikarashi-like and you'd have to be specific as to what you're looking for. That said, I got a detailed description and sharpening demo of each binsui type


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## Hianyiaw

Hmm I thought miles only sold 2 types of binsui?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

That paper towel cut... impressive indeed... are you someone that could get a can lid that sharp with a scythe stone anyway, or is that really a specialty of that thai stone?


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## Badgertooth

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> That paper towel cut... impressive indeed... are you someone that could get a can lid that sharp with a scythe stone anyway, or is that really a specialty of that thai stone?



Full disclosure. 

1. The towel isn't free hanging, the slight bit of tension from its attachment to the roll aids things a little.

2. It's a pull cut and not a push cut. If I was push cutting through free hanging paper towel I'd be less self deprecating.

That said, with the same knife and the same paper I couldn't get a cut that clean from an Aizu or Tsushima with as little resistance. If I take the time with a maruoyama shiro suita and let slurry build up, break down and then gradually dilute it, I can get a similar result, but not as quickly. So there's certainly something to be said for the inherent quality of the stone.


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## Badgertooth

Hianyiaw said:


> Hmm I thought miles only sold 2 types of binsui?



Yeah, orange and white but there's a whole spectrum within them.


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## Asteger

ynot1985 said:


> is everyone getting a binsui?



I thought everyone already had one a few years ago.


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## ynot1985

I mean in regards to people who are ordering some after otto's post.. Seems like everyone's photo has one included.. Was weighting up if it's worth it.. Not an issue with price, more so with the space it takes up at home since I already have a few coarse stones that I hardly use


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## Hianyiaw

The white binsui is about 1.2k in grit or so I was told. So it's not that coarse anyway


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## Mika

Nice looking stone. I might just have to order one.


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## mikedtran

I'm relatively new to naturals, but this stone feels like it loves some pressure. Any thoughts from other users on this?


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## Badgertooth

I reckon I use more pressure on my Choseras than I do on the Khao men

But for a relative scale - It needs more pressure than my aoto, monzento , Aizu and Numata. But requires considerably less than Tsushima, hard takashima & yaginoshima. And not even comparable to Ozuku asagi


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## mikedtran

Interesting, I definitely use lighter pressure on my synthetics.

Though I would say more pressure than my Aoto, less pressure than Thai Binsui, and less pressure than Nakayama Namito. I'm definitely still learning.


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## panda

what knife was the togo reigou and tell us more about the steel!?


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## Badgertooth

panda said:


> what knife was the togo reigou and tell us more about the steel!?



I kept this one under the radar as there seems to not be all that much Konosuke love around here and it came in with a glut of other knives. It's the Kurogaki handled Fujiyama from Tosho.

It's not real Togo Reigou, in that it's not Andrews of Sheffield. It's from a billet of vintage Swedish steel that behaves very similarly in forging and sharpening according to old timers in Sakai. 

It's good stuff, whatever it is. Nice to sharpen but holds the toughest burr I've ever experienced but once deburred, it takes a steep, sticky edge and holds that edge for a very long time. Still haven't taken it to the khao men as it simply hasn't needed it after a few months of opening up.


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## panda

sounds like aogami super


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## Marek07

Badgertooth said:


> Yup, then it would be a good option.
> 
> $35USD to NZ from Thailand via SAL. You're looking at more like $50 from Hawaii.


Late response but...
Although Miles is in Hawaii, his brother is doing the leg work by cutting, packing and shipping out of Thailand. Cost me $82.50 shipped to Oz.


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## bennyprofane

Is it known what grit the Khao Men has?


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## Badgertooth

bennyprofane said:


> Is it known what grit the Khao Men has?



Tough one to gauge. Myles reckons about 2 - 3k but I have it as a lot finer with slurry breakdown.


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## Krassi

hiho!

ill order my stones the next days. miles also sayed he uses them for his razors.
sounds pretty what i was looking for.
2 khao men and a white grey binsu to germany. and his brother already built the box for them 

cant wait to get them!


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## Badgertooth

Krassi said:


> hiho!
> 
> ill order my stones the next days. miles also sayed he uses them for his razors.
> sounds pretty what i was looking for.
> 2 khao men and a white grey binsu to germany. and his brother already built the box for them
> 
> cant wait to get them!



The box is a real nifty touch as it created an internal compartment that perfectly contains the stone. I forgot about that.


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## Krassi

yep! looks good and solid 
http://imgur.com/a/Q5fOK


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## Krassi

Hiho!

Well i was kind of shocked that i allready got the box with the Stones  !
super solid packaging with a package around that nailed wood box and the stones were in styrofoam custom fit for it..







first of all the khao men is awesome! splash and go.. well just a little water on it and thats all and it made super instant mega mud with my super dull and fine dmt.
It has a veryvery silky feeling and seems to be also nice and fast.. i tried it on a really dull hinoura aogami super suji first binsu and then khao men and a nice zero angle grind.. holy crap it was a nice razor! and smoothly removed every hair from a spot 

sooo i really have to thank you guys for the info about this T-Nat which is really breathtaking good!.

The finishing of the stones is good to.. they are perfectly flat ..one side is ready to go and the other sides seem laquerd or something.
corners are strongly and nicely rounded an the edges are all flat.. the binsu was flat and ready to go from top and bottom.


i am really havin stone friday because i also got 2 mystery super fine finishers that also seem to be good.. 
ill guess ill make some video or stuff about this nice black rock.

Ah the grey white binsu is also very cool. surface has some su like holes but still very solid and smooth.. it makes not easily slurry but feels really hard!.. nice stone and ill experiment a bit mor how to use it best , after or instead of the JNS1k.. The size of this stone is just godlike 

best regards, daniel!!


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## foody518

2 khao men! Did you try them both out? Are they fairly consistent with each other?


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## Krassi

Hi!

Yep i tried both .. size was nearly exactly the same (some mm difference thats it)
Well they both seem to mee equally smooth..

slurry is done super fast and they feel the same to me. what i like about the stones is that you can actually give a knife a finish . miles told me he uses the khao men for his razor.
i actually got what i was looking for ..something cooler than JNS red aoto and as a natural stone with smoother surface.

so it was also super fast with the shipping from thailand to germany! i espected it muuucch later.. it was shipped on saturday 13 and its here within a week! NICE  so i can try them all this weekend .
best regards, daniel


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## bennyprofane

Can't wait to get mine. Hope you make it to the post office tomorrow :wink:


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## Matus

I am going to order one as soon as I get back from our vacation, you guys got me hooked


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## Krassi

i gotta test those stones more, but i totally like the feedback of the khao men.. i guess the red aoto will have stronger polishing power , but ill have to try more and i guess there's a little learning curve with those bricks... such a huge brick for such a good price was just to interesting for me so i could not resist to try..


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## alterwisser

ha, just chatted with him. He's good at upselling, for sure ... haha!


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## Badgertooth

For the sake of balance and to not come across as a complete shill for these - I've found the first application they are not suitable for. I was polishing a takobiki and assumed this would be perfect. It was too grabby and it was difficult to maintain the constant motion and pressure essential to an even polish. I have dropped it from that progression. That said, Krassi's impression very much echoes my own and it's really good on double bevel knives and I also find more and more use for the binsu.


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## jaknil

alterwisser said:


> ha, just chatted with him. He's good at upselling, for sure ... haha!




Well, if you have not read this thread: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ing-much-better-or-jnat-than-the-JNS-Red-Aoto
I´ll just make sure to make a note of it. I have put down a few thoughts from my T-nats. 
I can only recommend these stones. 
The Khao men is a bit slow and not so fantastic on the 52100 steel, I have learned. But all the carbon steels are great with this stone.
Dreamy and soft as silk (it feels softer than my JNS 6k stone, and even the ohira suita I just bought from Krassi). But it does not dish as you would expect it actually stays prety flat.
Kind of: the best of two worlds.

However, If he is trying to make you buy an orange one: Just do it! 
You can leave out the white one, but get that orange brick......


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## Krassi

Ah nice @jaknil i am glad the stones arrived safe ! 
ahh well i passed on the orange one because it would have been to many stones.. well maybe another time .. grey white one is not really fast, but actually makes a nice polish.
i actually am very happy with my 1k jns and will try jns first and then the binsu

is there actually any need for a jns 6k or something before going on ohira and more if i use the khao men? what are you using "khao men guys"


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## bennyprofane

jaknil said:


> The Khao men is a bit slow and not so fantastic on the 52100 steel, I have learned. But all the carbon steels are great with this stone.
> 
> However, If he is trying to make you buy an orange one: Just do it!
> You can leave out the white one, but get that orange brick......



But 52100 is also a (non stainless) carbon steel.

How would you describe the orange one, how is it compared to a synth? Commonly one reads that for coarser grits the synths are better.


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## alterwisser

jaknil said:


> Well, if you have not read this thread: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ing-much-better-or-jnat-than-the-JNS-Red-Aoto
> I´ll just make sure to make a note of it. I have put down a few thoughts from my T-nats.
> I can only recommend these stones.
> The Khao men is a bit slow and not so fantastic on the 52100 steel, I have learned. But all the carbon steels are great with this stone.
> Dreamy and soft as silk (it feels softer than my JNS 6k stone, and even the ohira suita I just bought from Krassi). But it does not dish as you would expect it actually stays prety flat.
> Kind of: the best of two worlds.
> 
> However, If he is trying to make you buy an orange one: Just do it!
> You can leave out the white one, but get that orange brick......



Didn't talk about the orange one. Which ones that?


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## Krassi

just used my jns1k right now on that hinoura suji and woow well the stone is working super faster (and made a awesome cloudy finish).. so i guess 1k synthetic suits me best as a start.. okk maaaaybe i get me a mystery aizu brick but the suji for example was super crazy sharp actually after the 1k.. i ll try the binsu next and khao and ohira of course.. and il also get the watanabe ai1000 synthetic.. and then i should not buy more stonestuff  because i got a drawer full of bricks ... but once you start with this natural stone stuff you go over board quiet easy and get more )..

nice for the khao men seems to be a good solid quality and 2 stones behaved the same that i have here right now.


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## panda

mystery aizu?


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## Badgertooth

Krassi said:


> Ah nice @jaknil i am glad the stones arrived safe !
> ahh well i passed on the orange one because it would have been to many stones.. well maybe another time .. grey white one is not really fast, but actually makes a nice polish.
> i actually am very happy with my 1k jns and will try jns first and then the binsu
> 
> is there actually any need for a jns 6k or something before going on ohira and more if i use the khao men? what are you using "khao men guys"



JNS 1k -> DMT slurry binsu -> Khao men -> Oohira 

Perfect


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## jaknil

bennyprofane said:


> But 52100 is also a (non stainless) carbon steel.
> 
> How would you describe the orange one, how is it compared to a synth? Commonly one reads that for coarser grits the synths are better.



I have the JNS 800, which is a soaker (needs 20 mins soaking before use). 
This is a very effective stone, and if I need to repair small chips or remove a bit of metal this is my "go to" stone.
It has been so the whole time, and still is. The feedback is kind of direct, and you know metal is leaving the blade. It does not feel smooth. But it is effective as heck. 

The orange one feels a lot softer. The ride is a lot smoother. You feel happy when using this one, but it is not removing metal in the same way. Kind of feels like you are polishing more than removing anything. It will take you a whole lot longer to remove a chip on the orange one than on the JNS 800. But great feedback from the stone.
So it will never replace my 800. I think it is a bit higher in grit as well (to me it even feels like 1200 territory). 
I am sure it will be perfect for smooting out scratches from a lower grit. I have not yet had to do so.

Hope this makes sense.....


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## jaknil

alterwisser said:


> Didn't talk about the orange one. Which ones that?



See my reply #8 and #11 in:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...ing-much-better-or-jnat-than-the-JNS-Red-Aoto


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## Krassi

@panda.. a stone that could be an aizu  i dondt know but i i guess i want to have it 

@bagertooth
sounds like a good plan with the stone progression.. actually what i also planned for me..i just need to have a better way to make slurry on the white binsu,, maybe i need a 140 atoma.. 
but yesterday with the 1k jns it was so easy to make the knife awesome sharp again.. so ill make it sharp and then use the tnats and jnats to polish it more. the mud of the khao men is awesome on a towel or leather and polish the sides of the knife with it.. gives a super crazy teflon like finish!.

...and now ill get me a nice coffee and breakfast and try em on some knifes i have..wellness saturday..yeeah ! 

also finally ordered me 2 fujuwara teryasu nashiji knifes (150petty and 180 gyuto) which will be rehandled with handles i still got ...cant wait to get my hands on them..
meehhh i thought i was cured of the knife and stone virus .. but good shirogami and shirogami like steel knifes and mid range natural stones are really something cool and new for me and i dondt regret anything 

brick size sharpening stones are always having a nice wellness factor !


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## Badgertooth

Also... I use a worn out DMT Extra Coarse with good result. Another thing to try is mud from a finer stone on the binsu. I have used aoto slurry with really great results


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## Krassi

Ahh ok well my worn out dmt is also a coarse.. also got a worn out atoma 600..
i think the mud from the khao men is nice for it..well i try..


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## XooMG

My khao men mud is Ok but not spectacular on binsui. I've had much better results from tenjo, la veinette coticule, and soft hakka. Darkest cladding finish from the coticule slurry, but more small stray scratches too.

Just play around...the stones are good fun.


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## panda

anything that even resembles an aizu should immediately be picked up and reported back on. i would love to get a small aizu as a touchup stone for work. currently chosera 3k fills that role for me, but i like the edge from an aizu so much more.


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## Krassi

@panda

this one here..thats the "mystery aizu" i got from some auction..... well i bought it actually and its bricksize and sick! .. well it seems to make brutal swarf of doom des todes as its on the screenshot, i got it pretty cheap and well together with the thai white grey binsu and the thai khao men plus this "it was bought to be supposed a blue aizu"... well it seems to have nice white spots and awesome renge like spots







looks interesting with gigatons of dark slurry

! best regards, daniel

and had some awesome grilling in the cologne suedstadt with zetieum...and tons of awesome knifes and sacrificing a bag of carrots and his family plus nice weather plus weber grilling power, daniel!
thanks to 
was super very cool super tasty and in the neighbourhood ..and tons of sick knifes!  i had around 15 ++ knifes plus my ohira aka and ohira ao renge with me


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## Badgertooth

Another possibility which would be equally cool:

There is older kasabori Ikarashi from a vein mined in the between 1930 and 1950 that is supposed to be a lot like Aizu and have incredible shaping power for a natural. If that's the swarf it's kicking up then that is awesome. Good find!!


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## panda

How are the results from use?


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## jaknil

jaknil said:


> I have the JNS 800, which is a soaker (needs 20 mins soaking before use).
> This is a very effective stone, and if I need to repair small chips or remove a bit of metal this is my "go to" stone.
> It has been so the whole time, and still is. The feedback is kind of direct, and you know metal is leaving the blade. It does not feel smooth. But it is effective as heck.
> 
> The orange one feels a lot softer. The ride is a lot smoother. You feel happy when using this one, but it is not removing metal in the same way. Kind of feels like you are polishing more than removing anything. It will take you a whole lot longer to remove a chip on the orange one than on the JNS 800. But great feedback from the stone.
> So it will never replace my 800. I think it is a bit higher in grit as well (to me it even feels like 1200 territory).
> I am sure it will be perfect for smooting out scratches from a lower grit. I have not yet had to do so.
> 
> Hope this makes sense.....



To expand my answer on the orange binsui from Thailand:

I have been fortunate enough to try an Ikarashi head to head with the orange binsui. 
It is the Ikarashi which is #1 stone in this link: 
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/wetstone8.htm

They feel and act exactly the same.


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## Krassi

interesting @jaknil!
well i was also looking at those watanabe stones.. but actually found this "maybe aizu".. ill see how it behaves.. but seems like a big sharpening brick--- thats so awesome about those medium stones.. they are all super gigant size!

i really liked the good polishing of the white grey binsu and try to get more slurry with it. miles said something like he leaves the slurry on those for many weeks 
ill make more tests once the new brick arrives and i think i will stick to a very good synthetic 1k stone and then use tnats and jnats


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## jaknil

Also this stone from JNS is huge, and in the same leauge as the Ikarashi that I have tried, and my orange binsui: 
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/ikarashi/
It is a good buy.


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## bennyprofane

@jaknil do you start with the orange binsui and what is your full progression?

miles wrote me that the orange binsui is around 600-800 and the Ikarashi is around 1000-2000 it says at jns, are you sure they act the same?


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## zetieum

Krassi said:


> and had some awesome grilling in the cologne suedstadt with zetieum...and tons of awesome knifes and sacrificing a bag of carrots and his family plus nice weather plus weber grilling power, daniel!
> thanks to
> was super very cool super tasty and in the neighbourhood ..and tons of sick knifes!  i had around 15 ++ knifes plus my ohira aka and ohira ao renge with me



Yeah. We had great time. A lot of great knives. The ohira stones of Krassi are wicked sick. My first contact with Jnat. A revelation. I am not good on stones but few passes of those an I got a super edge easily in not time. fantastic. I am afraid of the depth of this rabbit hole, but I think I am about to jump in.


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## jaknil

bennyprofane said:


> @jaknil do you start with the orange binsui and what is your full progression?
> 
> miles wrote me that the orange binsui is around 600-800 and the Ikarashi is around 1000-2000 it says at jns, are you sure they act the same?


As I wrote earlier: I don´t find the orange Binsui to be as rough as 600/800. I find it finer than that as in 1000 or a bit finer still (this is why I guessed at 1200). 
I have, as stated in post #74 tested the watanabe head to head with the orange Binsui. They feel and sharpen the same. 
The one from JNS I tried at the last JNS gathering aprox 6 months ago. So it might be a little different, but for sure in the same aprox grit range. It could be a bit coarser I guess. No way to be entirely sure. 



My full progression depends on the steel and mood, I guess. Not really a strict way that I go about things. 
Often I start on the Khao men and go to Takashima and then Aiiwatani. Sometimes I use the JNS 6000 between Khao men and Takashima. 

If I need to repair more (but not a whole lot), then Orange Binsui, white binsui (with Khao men nagura), before the Khao men. 

If I need to do a whole lot of metal-removing then start on the JNS 300, and the JNS 800 before the orange Binsui.


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## GRoc

The Khao men looks too good of an opportunity to try a natural stone for me to pass! And I have been swearing by synthetics all these years..
I will share some thoughts once I receive mine in a couple of weeks... Anyone tried the Khao men with pm steels (r2 or 20cv)? I would expect that it would not work well with abrasion resistant steels but of course I could be wrong and the amount and state of mud may influence the final results...


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## Badgertooth

Unfortunately my only R2 knife needs sharpening so infrequently that it's not yet had a turn on the Khao men and I don't know what conclusion I can draw from sharpening an already sharp edge


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## panda

You can drop lower grit, and then form new stone scratch paterns.


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## Marek07

After waiting impatiently since 8/8, my khao men finally arrived today - as many have mentioned, very well packed in foam and custom wooden crate inside cardboard. Couldn't wait so immediately tried it out on some cheap but very much used SS knives.

My comments need to be taken in perspective - I'm pretty green here. I only started using water stones this year, mainly Chosera 400, 1k & 3K. The only naturals I have ever used were small Arkansas stones (with oil). 

The size of the khao men is great - feels good to have so much real estate. Makes mud instantly even without naguras or diamond plates. I sharpened 3 knives on the khao men and found it very hard to form/feel a burr - something that comes very quickly and easily on a Chosera. Has any one else had this issue or is it just my (lack of) technique? I then followed by stropping on CrO2 loaded leather strop. Sharpness was quite reasonable and I think the stone will fit in well in my setup once I get more familiar with it. A bit more practice required before I work on some "better" knives.

Overall, excellent value for money - even at this early stage. And here opens the naturals rabbit hole :scared4:


----------



## Badgertooth

Don't be discouraged by it not blowing your hair back on the cheaper knives. Give your Tanaka a twirl on it, the stone is soft enough to forgive a little wobble in your technique but the steel is good enough to respond well to the stone.


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## bennyprofane

Not sure if you need to form a burr, the edge has already been formed on the coarser stones and you are now polishing this edge. I dont form a burr on my suita and the edge is amazing, unlike anything Ive experienced before on the synth stones. Really looking forward to my Khao Men.


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## Marek07

@Badgertooth
Not at all discouraged - early days with this monster. I'll wait a couple more weeks before I try the Tanaka on it. Time enough for my skills to improve and for the Tanaka to lose its edge - it's a really good performer and the edge is keeping very well - I treated it to the Naniwa Junpaku when I first got it.

@bennyprofane
I think you're right about not needing to form a burr. I mentioned the same concern to Miles and he responded moments later with a very detailed email outlining suggested progressions and also pointing out that burrs are not necessary nor even desired after 1.5k or so. In my experience, burrs form very easily on 400 & 1k Choseras but far more subtle on the 3k. As I thought the khao men was around the 2k mark I guess I expected a burr.

Guess the only thing to do is keep practising! Learning to use water stones has been one of my most rewarding and enjoyable learnings! Only regret not getting a binsui or two...


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## havox07

Looking at ordering a khao and orange binsu, what sizes do you guys think I should get?


----------



## jaknil

Full size stones are huge and very cool. With these stones from Thailand they are also affordable. So it is a good option.
But half size stones will easily last your lifetime, som you can save a bit on the stones, and also on the shipping without missing out on any sharpening action.....


If the savings will bring you closer to the next stone, then perhaps do this. 
If it is not so important with the extra amount of cash, then splash out and get the big ones.


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## foody518

Havox07: Thickness- dependent on your usage frequency and # of knives. I don't know if Miles even sells anything under an inch thick so you should be good there
Length, I'd say at least 5-6 inches long but 8 is a lot more comfortable if you do mainly gyutos. 
Width - personal experience but I'm junk at sharpening with narrow stones, particularly wide bevel polishing of gyutos has been disastrous with anything around or under ~60mm width (<2.4 inches). The standard 3 inch width give or take 5mm is much more comfortable

Based on what I was quoted from Miles with regards to his recent batch, I think that you will have no problems getting some dimensions that are very generous for kitchen knives and a relative bargain compared to getting similar sized Jnats

Thanks to this thread, I have 3 Tnats headed my way, excited to get them in!


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## Krassi

hiho!

@foody wow cool i hope you also have super awesome fun with those monster brick..the size of all the stones is awesome!! my "aizu" is also this size..
khao men and white binsu are awesome stones that i am happy that i got them!

ohh regarding the orange binsu.. is it fast or much slower than a 1k synthetic? 

best regards, daniel!


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## havox07

So compared to synthetic grits what would you relate each of the stones to?


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## bennyprofane

Marek07 said:


> @bennyprofane
> As I thought the khao men was around the 2k mark I guess I expected a burr.



I thought the Khao Men is higher in grit, no? Is it comparable to an Aoto?


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## zetieum

I am following this thread, but I cannot find on the net the stones you are writing about. I tired on FB, without success. Would someone be so kind posting a link to the vendor? many thanks!


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## Matus

Just look on FB or Google for "Aranyik". I would not go as far as posting a link to vendor that is not registered here on KKF.


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## Marek07

bennyprofane said:


> I thought the Khao Men is higher in grit, no? Is it comparable to an Aoto?



Please don't rely on me - the 2k figure I quote was my impression from reading this thread, not from my limited experience with the stone. I certainly can't compare to an Aoto.

I have read that the grit of the Khao Men is somewhere between 2 and 3k depending on reviewer and amount of mud. Miles puts it closer to the 3k figure. Perhaps badgertooth is better able to comment on this. 

According to a newish website called Natural Whetstones Wiki, it is somewhere between 2k and 3k but likely closer to the higher end. Don't know their credentials but you can read it here: http://naturalwhetstone.org/index.php?title=Khao_Men.


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## chinacats

Matus said:


> Just look on FB or Google for "Aranyik". I would not go as far as posting a link to vendor that is not registered here on KKF.



Not sure of the link but no reason not to post it here...worst case it will show up as "this site not allowed here"


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## daveb

The link to the products is fine. http://www.aranyik.com/graphics/Aranyik-2016-Catalog.pdf

Not seeing any reason to try the stones, I get confused just looking at the few I already have.

There are other forums where they are discussed. Posting those links would be tacky.


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## Badgertooth

Miles and I got into it a bit over grits because he sticks with his assessment of 'true grit' which I think would be an objective measure of the undegraded particle size. Anecdotally and compared to other stones I own I have this 'feeling' like its 5k and upward even. There is no way I would use it before a Chosera 3k or 5k. I would slot it in after those two and before my final natural finisher.

800 > 3k > Khao men would be plenty for any double bevel

It works well after harder stones that leave crisp, accurate bevels and works well with biggish jumps as you give yourself less opportunity to undo your hard work in getting a crisp edge.


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## panda

Khao men makes me think of ramen, and when I think of ramen I get hungry.


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## daveb

I'm more interested in Khao wimins.


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## Badgertooth

daveb said:


> I'm more interested in Khao wimins.



Dave wins the internet.


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## Marek07

A question regarding the size of the Khao Men. As soon as I got it I tried it out and didn't pay close attention to the actual dimensions.

They are sold as 9" x 3" x 3". In metric measurements that would be approx. 229mm x 76mm x 76mm. My stone came at the nominated length - no problem there. However the height of the stone varies from corner to corner. So looking at the stone from above, i.e. down onto the sharpening surface, the height in mm is shown against the four corners:

71mm ---------------------------------------------- 75mm



72mm ---------------------------------------------- 76mm

Have other owners noted any variation? Side to side is not a real issue to me but end to end seems a bit "out". As it's a relatively inexpensive stone, perhaps I should just deal with it and get used to sharpening uphill and downhill.

Comments welcomed.


----------



## alterwisser

looks like I got a heavy package waiting for me when I get home [emoji16]


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## Badgertooth

Marek07 said:


> A question regarding the size of the Khao Men. As soon as I got it I tried it out and didn't pay close attention to the actual dimensions.
> 
> They are sold as 9" x 3" x 3". In metric measurements that would be approx. 229mm x 76mm x 76mm. My stone came at the nominated length - no problem there. However the height of the stone varies from corner to corner. So looking at the stone from above, i.e. down onto the sharpening surface, the height in mm is shown against the four corners:
> 
> 71mm ---------------------------------------------- 75mm
> 
> 
> 
> 72mm ---------------------------------------------- 76mm
> 
> Have other owners noted any variation? Side to side is not a real issue to me but end to end seems a bit "out". As it's a relatively inexpensive stone, perhaps I should just deal with it and get used to sharpening uphill and downhill.
> 
> Comments welcomed.



Didn't notice anything on my Khao men but my binsu has four choices for sharpening angle. Port, starboard, uphill, downhill.

No biggie, the facets themselves are actually true & flat


----------



## jaknil

Badgertooth said:


> Didn't notice anything on my Khao men but my binsu has four choices for sharpening angle. Port, starboard, uphill, downhill.
> 
> No biggie, the facets themselves are actually true & flat



Same here. Thats the white binsui. The Khao Men and the orange one seems square enough. No problem sharpening like that though. 
If it bothers you, then you can sharpen on the highest end until level, or go to work with an atoma or the likes.


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## Marek07

Badgertooth and jaknil - thanks for your responses.

The one mm side to side is imperceptible and perhaps I'm being too finicky about the end to end variation. I actually never noticed it till a friend asked for a photo - it's fairly obvious when you're side on. But hey, the top of the stone is flat and once you set the blade at a sharpening angle I guess it's OK. I'd just prefer a squarer brick. Haven't got an Atoma (yet) but I'll try my generic 400 grit plate. Might be a slow & long process. Or I could prop up the low side...


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## foody518

Prop the lower side is an easy solution. Also, I think some people purposely sharpen at a tilt 

Got my stones in today! Need some more time to formulate my thoughts on these...I'll try to get those and pics out at some point


----------



## Kingkor

Just ordered mine today. Waiting to see how they are.


----------



## alterwisser

Marek07 said:


> Badgertooth and jaknil - thanks for your responses.
> 
> The one mm side to side is imperceptible and perhaps I'm being too finicky about the end to end variation. I actually never noticed it till a friend asked for a photo - it's fairly obvious when you're side on. But hey, the top of the stone is flat and once you set the blade at a sharpening angle I guess it's OK. I'd just prefer a squarer brick. Haven't got an Atoma (yet) but I'll try my generic 400 grit plate. Might be a slow & long process. Or I could prop up the low side...



My white Binsu isn't even either, flat surface though. The Khao Men is perfect though, and what a brick it is lol


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## GRoc

My Khao men was delivered yesterday. It looks great! And the glossy sealer used for the sides and bottom makes it even more appealing to sharpen the stone or even leave on the counter top as discussion starter (huge, awesome brick, I just wish I had the space to leave on the counter top)....

Mine came in at 3,625 grams, 23.6 cm long, 8.2 cm wide and have a bit of uneven thickness but noting to worry about, actually I like the "uphill" sharpening... 
7.6 7.6
8.0 7.9cm would b the thickness on the four corners.

Splash and go, quick mud building even with just the blade, but Miles provided a small 154 grams slurry stone (also Khao men) for free so I will be comparing the results with and without making mud from the slurry stone


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## Graydo77

Got mine in the other day also, not a super experienced sharpener but damn this stone feels great to work with. My stone is also sloped but put a smal shim under one side and everything's peachy [emoji4]

https://flic.kr/p/Lh1yP9

Pic was intended for what's drinking post but the stones there too [emoji23]


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## Mucho Bocho

Looks like it should be posted in the "what ya smoking" thread.


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## Graydo77

Haha, very perceptive mucho [emoji4]


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## chinacats

ROFLMAO...just glad it wasn't me


----------



## GRoc

Here is a photo of mine (along with a bone cleaver)




[/URL][/IMG]


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## Matus

We need to see some kasumi done with the stone!


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## foody518

Quick sloppy job, but this is what I've got
https://goo.gl/photos/46s9AJEQYc8fNyWj9
The slurry is usually something like a darker gray but the cladding on this knife is sooooo rust prone, so that shows in the mud over time.
I've got this weird suspicion that something about my khao men or its slurry is accelerating patina or rust formation even faster than what is normal in my sharpening...hope I'm just imagining that

This is my practice/beater knife for natural stone finishes and such... May try to put up a better looking finish picture after another thinning and flattening of the wide bevel and polishing stones progression


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## Matus

Looks like the Khao has a quite a kasumi potential. About the rust - you may not have relised that you have spent more time on the stone + working on the bevel means that you have removed all the patina that was protecting the knife. I have similar experience from thinning & refinishing one knife - it felt like it was rusting all the time.


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## foody518

Matus - I hesitate to say that is the case. The only 2 knives I've used on these T-nats so far as that wide beveled project/beater knife (carbon core, soft iron cladding) in the picture as well as a 52100 monosteel narrow beveled project knife. These are knives that I mess with on almost a weekly basis practicing sharpening, thinning, polishing, and testing different stone finishes. As such, they indeed tend not to have patina most the time and so I'm used how to manage that during sharpening.
On the monosteel knife, I recently polished up the sides to 320 or 400 grit 3M sandpaper which had it kind of shiny. I sharpened that one with a white binsui with some tomo nagura slurry (after that pass, no problems, no patina) and then the khao men. Every place on the blade face that the khao men slurry covered for no more than a few minutes had turned almost milky white, huge contrast to the polished remainder of the blade face. I've never had that much change to that monosteel knife in the course of a sharpening on one stone.
And then on the wide beveled knife, the cladding rusted faster than I'm used to. I have started wiping after every polishing pass on one side (1-3 minutes) after the khao men though I do not have to do that on other stones. 
I had reservations about mentioning this feeling/suspicion but decided to write it anyways in case for some reason this isn't an isolated occurrence or that it's not totally in my imagination. Is there any precedent for acidic inclusions in natural stones? My Khao Men has some streaky white coarser stuff running vertically along one end of the sharpening surface. At any rate on that stone I'll be wiping every minute or two at the longest to try and avoid having problems.

Today I did a little more thinning and polishing on that wide beveled knife. Naniwa Pro 400 ->Thai Orange Binsu -> Gesshin 2000 -> Khao Men. Freed but a little bit more of the core steel towards the middle and front of the knife. Took a few pictures
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JsPVE8ewL1JBiETImGXapiqFqGvifrRGGg/view?usp=sharing This is after the orange Binsu. Mine is definitely on the harder side and acts much like a coarser version of the white. It doesn't shed abrasive all that readily and instead the surface tends to burnish, similar to the white binsu I have. I was hoping it would act more like a bigger, better quality red binsui/red amakusa which I have a small block of and will actually generate something of a slurry/paste. As you can see in the picture the mud is basically all swarf, though with some swarf and a good water buffer you can use this for some polishing. Added a great deal of contrast following the Naniwa Pro 400.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LPlcplSK7_QDhHP_jfrNThuWUJWeiTyg9Q/view?usp=sharing This is the Khao Men finish following the Gesshin 2000. Smooths out the scratch pattern fairly well. Cladding color is darker and core steel color hasn't changed much compared to coming off the Orange Binsu which diminishes contrast a bit though obviously the scratch pattern is actually finer. Hopefully there's a bit more core steel visible to get an idea of contrast in this picture compared to the earlier post. Still forming my opinion on this, but at this time I'd rate the Khao Men I have as something in the 2-5k, maybe 3-5k range. This and another natural I have both remind me of the edge and finish similar to that of Suehiro Rika.

Here are pictures of all 3 stones dry and then wet. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UCKGxNE8Lv4X18zXrJ0dNW5GfEQD_Eb8Fw/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1h_xpoOZOB7xOO2nSR_of0y0t9BVLHgNgLQ/view?usp=sharing
I realized that I forgot to specify that I wanted to get a softer pastier orange binsu as opposed to a harder one, got too caught up specifying dimensions to fit my budget range. I feel that my orange and white are kind of close together in grit and overall usage. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hbHnffjiLSLXaRUYIEFSkVunwmGkwIDmng/view?usp=sharing
This picture shows a slight chip in a corner of the white binsu which reveals a deep orange color so clearly I got a 2-in-1 stone . 

I may have to make another purchase to grab a softer orange binsu...


----------



## foody518

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_pM1YBWmZL1b4j2Z67RUUGL58uiR38ycAg/view?usp=sharing Same Khao Men finish but with some natural lighting. Another view of the contrast generated, probably a more flattering one at that. Core steel is something in the hazy mirror range, not quite semi mirror (this is dependent on personal perceptions/understandings of those terms I guess). The slight white bumps reflecting in the core steel are my window blinds...


----------



## Matus

Thank you foody518 for a very detailed report. The finish you git off Khao Man reminds me strongly of my kurouchi Carter which was finished with Takashima + finger stone made from Takashima. That is - it looks great.

That white-orange Binsui looks very intriguing - did you ask the seller abour it?


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## foody518

Hi Matus,
I am thinking your KU Carter with Takashima finish will have finer scratch pattern if compared side by side with my Khao Men finish ...My not so high resolution Handy camera is definitely a bit more forgiving of things like that. I have an Oouchi from Jon that he describes as being similar but a bit softer than the Takashima Awasedo he used to stock, and I am almost positive (will check next time I use that stone) that the finish and scratch pattern it leaves on this same knife's wide bevel is a fair bit finer.

I didn't ask about the White Binsu, but in hindsight probably should have requested pictures of the specific stones I would be getting out of his new shipment. I accidentally dropped the ball on listing my detailed preferences and only requested certain stone dimensions to try and make things fit in my chosen budget range for that purchase. Here are some more pictures of that stone that may provide some more clarity, wetted and side by side with my orange Binsu. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Sno_cV6_ZjM66fTAmp3F5jmAsAXc1FOY6g/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwiZznRqXAqdQlBkVmNuSmFBdnM/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_QLkjvceJXZYEaZo4l1j9crqu4saNIywTQ/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15SwNipDvHkjd7Dlj3Y76BxTaBr3tQ6zsLQ/view?usp=sharing
As you can see the, the porosity differs, with the White-Orange being denser and less porous. The black specks of embedded black swarf on the sharpening face of each stone help show this.
Future purchase may be to request a softer orange and a cleaner whiter white Binsu


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## Marek07

Some more (but newbie) thoughts on the Khao Men...

The 4mm variance end to end has proved to be imperceptible in use. Once I start sharpening at the right angle, the "slope" is irrelevant. AND... I'm really enjoying using it too! After comments from this thread, other KKFers and Miles himself, I now sharpen as follows: Chosera 1k > Chosera 3k > Khao Men > Naniwa Junpaku 8k. In fact, for general regular maintenance, I only use the last two stones. Very happy with the results and a great learning experience.

I should also mention that Miles sent me 4 scrap pieces with the Khao Men. They total >465g and I've flattened the smallest for use as a nagura. It's producing a massive amount of slurry.


----------



## XooMG

I typically just use the khao men after an 800-1000 stone and it does well. I like to use it before jumping to a finisher, but I have finished a few knives on it and it seems to provide a pretty good edge if the 1k is set well. I sharpen conservatively though, so sometimes the 1000 edge is not 100%, and the khao men isn't really quick enough to finish the edge like say a 4000 naniwa can.


----------



## bennyprofane

Marek, you might be missing out on the point of using a natural stone if you are going back to a synth stone after a natural. Consider finishing on the Khao Men (what I believe Miles does) or getting a finer natural finisher, you can get a reasonable priced Aiiwatani from jns, or perhaps a Suita from metalmaster (google metalmaster ebay).


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## Marek07

bennyprofane said:


> Marek, you might be missing out on the point of using a natural stone if you are going back to a synth stone after a natural. Consider finishing on the Khao Men (what I believe Miles does) or getting a finer natural finisher, you can get a reasonable priced Aiiwatani from jns, or perhaps a Suita from metalmaster (google metalmaster ebay).



Hmmm... I'll take all the advice I can - I'm new to Nats. The only natural stones I ever had were small Arkansas stones that I used with oil. Using the Khao Men has been a revelation. Initially, I used the Chosera 3k after the Khao Men but was told that was the wrong way around. Then for a few sessions I finished with the Khao Men just to get familiar with the edge it produced. Pretty good IMO. I have only just started using the Naniwa 8K (lightly) after the Khao Men and *I think* the results I'm getting are better than finishing on the Khao Men. Of course, I could be wrong... I'm the new boy on the block. 
 
I have some new knives coming in soon so I'll be able to explore/play more. However, my spending on stones and knives has been, uhm, well... let's say, enthusiastic of late. The JNat rabbit hole will be the death of me if I stray too close, so for now, I'll stick with learning on the KM.


----------



## Mucho Bocho

Mark, I finish on a natural Aiiwantani but give it one strop per side with the Takenoko. Gives it that refined edge that immediately bites. Lots of ways to skin a cat. 



Marek07 said:


> Hmmm... I'll take all the advice I can - I'm new to Nats. The only natural stones I ever had were small Arkansas stones that I used with oil. Using the Khao Men has been a revelation. Initially, I used the Chosera 3k after the Khao Men but was told that was the wrong way around. Then for a few sessions I finished with the Khao Men just to get familiar with the edge it produced. Pretty good IMO. I have only just started using the Naniwa 8K (lightly) after the Khao Men and *I think* the results I'm getting are better than finishing on the Khao Men. Of course, I could be wrong... I'm the new boy on the block.
> 
> I have some new knives coming in soon so I'll be able to explore/play more. However, my spending on stones and knives has been, uhm, well... let's say, enthusiastic of late. The JNat rabbit hole will be the death of me if I stray too close, so for now, I'll stick with learning on the KM.


----------



## XooMG

I do not think there is any problem finishing with a synthetic. Use what gets the edges you like with minimal struggle.


----------



## Krassi

hiho!

well i tried the jns1k , t-nat white grey binsu, khao men and then directly godlike ohira shiro suita aka renge and then ohira shiro suita ao renge.. well i havent tried the jns6k between but will try this..
the setup i used with jns 1k for start (and then made a very good sharpening with the 1k first so that the knife is actually sharp and will only be polished by the next stones) and t-nats and j-nats and wow i cant wait to get the orange thai binsu soon.. so i really up until now like to start with a AAA syntetic stone first and then go fully with natural stones.. well we did my hinoura junior AS 240mm sujihiki that way (actually zetieum did it and it turned out to be awesome) and the sashimi with it was very cool.

since i have very good j-nat finishing stones those thai stones are really awesome because they are cheap and have a very good consistent quality.. and the size.. wowwww ) that makes those stones so nice and fully super splash and go 3000! 

seeya, daniel


----------



## zetieum

Hey,
scoresa Kaho men last week. I tired it today on my deba on which there was an overgrazing. I stared on atoma 400 to remove quite a lot on material to flatten the overgrind. 
1h30. Then I went to JNS 1000 on which I remove the scratches from the atom, made the edge, flatten the aura, and made already a big secondary bevel on the 2 cm at the hell. 
The I finished on the Khao men fro which I raised a bit slury with a nagura. Very smooth and ver enjoyable to use! I used it also for micro-bevel at the end. I left a nice edge with quit some bite, refined enough for a deba. However, not a lot of contrast between the core and cladding tell. 
I like it a lot! very enjoyable


----------



## Cashn

Just ordered a khao men and white binsui, the one that was listed as extra hard. Will be at least a week till I try them out as I'm working away from home. Been pretty happy with my aoto>hideryiama>ohira set up so not sure if these will fit in but wanted to try something new and the price is right. Also have an omura and some kind of really hard (mystery?) stone from the shobu mine that I never use. A razor stone most likely. If Nothing else with the omura and binsui I'll have a full nat progression and aoto type stones are my favorite to play with. Also ordered the bone cleaver just because hehe :viking:


----------



## Victor

Hello Khao Men users!

Has anyone tried the aluminum oxide 1000 grit oil stone from Aranyik? And wouldn't it be impractical to use oil in the middle of a water stone process?

http://store.aranyik.com/#!/Aluminu...Grindstone-8x3x2/p/69562049/category=15740318

I was thinking of maybe getting it with an orange bunsui and khao men. This will be my first sharpening stones, and I'm also considering buying a set of 300, 1000 and 6000 from JNS. I could buy the Thai stones while in Thailand this winter, so the price differance between the two sets would be big. Would be great if someone has any views on the different sets! (I think I will get the khao men even if I go for the JNS set.)


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## foody518

Did you ask Miles if that 1k had to be used with oil (no water allowed?)
Do a really really really good job of getting all the oil wiped and soaped off the knife before transitioning to the naturals
If you have a choice between orange and white in similar price range/size, the white with some light slurry kicked up on it leaves a really crisp edge. My sharpening sample size on it is still small but I've been impressed.


----------



## Victor

No, but he said he prefers to use mineral oil on 1000 grit stones. I guess that means it's possible to use water. Orange and white is the same price in Thailand, and you pay per kg. Pretty cool! 

Right now I think I might buy JNS 300 and 1000, since I don't have any stones. Then I will get a Binsui and Khao Men in January. Maybe I should also get the JNS 6000 now, but I read somewhere in this thread that it's not good to finish with a 6000 synthetic after the Khao Men. Is that just natural stone fanatic talk or is it true? Have you got any other recommendations for a finishing stone within the same price range, and not a really expensive natural? Or is the Khao Men a good enough finish on its own?


----------



## Badgertooth

Khao men is plenty refinement for double bevel knives. That said if you like finer, there is a lot of love around here for the Takenoko. It leaves a refund but toothy 6 - 8k edge and feels nice to sharpen on if that's a consideration.


----------



## bennyprofane

Also, (please correct if Im wrong) there is not a lot sense in following a natural with a synthetic as you eliminate the advantages of the nat with the synth.


----------



## foody518

Victor said:


> No, but he said he prefers to use mineral oil on 1000 grit stones. I guess that means it's possible to use water. Orange and white is the same price in Thailand, and you pay per kg. Pretty cool!
> 
> Right now I think I might buy JNS 300 and 1000, since I don't have any stones. Then I will get a Binsui and Khao Men in January. Maybe I should also get the JNS 6000 now, but I read somewhere in this thread that it's not good to finish with a 6000 synthetic after the Khao Men. Is that just natural stone fanatic talk or is it true? Have you got any other recommendations for a finishing stone within the same price range, and not a really expensive natural? Or is the Khao Men a good enough finish on its own?



IMO if you just get one, go for the white over the orange if you will have a 1k synth. Neither feel as fast cutting as like a 1-1.2k synth, but as long as you use the synth to cut a really clean bevel, the white Binsu follows it really well and cleans it up nicely. I would have some sort of nagura to generate just a bit of slurry on it to help with the cutting action.
I was doing Naniwa Pro 400 (for that clean, even bevel set) -> Orange w/slurry -> White w/slurry (refinement) on a friend's cheap Chinese stainless knives and was pretty happy with where the edge had gotten to.


----------



## Victor

bennyprofane said:


> Also, (please correct if Im wrong) there is not a lot sense in following a natural with a synthetic as you eliminate the advantages of the nat with the synth.



Which natural advantage would be eliminated?


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## bennyprofane

The point of using a nat is getting a certain kind of edge, fine but with some tooth, also longer lasting, you wont have these advantages if you use a synth after a nat.


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## jaknil

Victor said:


> No, but he said he prefers to use mineral oil on 1000 grit stones. I guess that means it's possible to use water. Orange and white is the same price in Thailand, and you pay per kg. Pretty cool!
> 
> Right now I think I might buy JNS 300 and 1000, since I don't have any stones. Then I will get a Binsui and Khao Men in January. Maybe I should also get the JNS 6000 now, but I read somewhere in this thread that it's not good to finish with a 6000 synthetic after the Khao Men. Is that just natural stone fanatic talk or is it true? Have you got any other recommendations for a finishing stone within the same price range, and not a really expensive natural? Or is the Khao Men a good enough finish on its own?



Do get the JNS 6000! 
It is brilliant. 
I have it, as well as the orange and white Binsui and also the Khao men.

Sorry, but maybe bennyprofane is right, that you would not that a synth after a nat, but....
Khao men is lacking a bit on some steels, as eg 52100 or stainless. 
The JNS 6000 does it all, and you never need to work for it. It is you safe stone to go to. 
Beeing a newbee in sharpening, it´s all about having a safe place to go to. 
Kind of a reference-stone. This would be the JNS 6000. 
Then you will realise, that for some steels the Khao men is more pleasant to work with, but for others you can´t get the same refinement as on the JNS. 

Should you get it now? Yes. 
If you wait for later you won´t qualify for free shipping unless you buy even more.

And: if in a hurry, you can just do: JNS 1000 and 6000. Done.


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## bennyprofane

I agree, the JNS 6000 is great but you probably dont need the Khao Men in between if you use it, you can go straight from JNS 1000 to 6000. There might be some advantage putting the Khao Men in between, more experienced users would have to answer that.


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## Krassi

HIho!

Well the JNS6000 is super awesome!

I also got it .. i bought it never used it for around 1 Year , tried it and wow awesome.. its like cream 

And JNS 1000 is my actually sharpening stone.. the rest is polishing after that. I totally like it! 1k + 6k + khao men and Binsu is a super Combo breaker for everything.. and good preparation for following Suita Jnats and more.
With Jns 6k and Kano Men and even JNS red aoto i have enough stuff for any steel before i use my suitas.

Actually this should do mostly for any kitchen knife  i am happy with the variety that i have..


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## gic

Doesn't the Takenoko use natural stone powder in its matrix so it continues to give you a refined, yet toothy edge?


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## Badgertooth

gic said:


> Doesn't the Takenoko use natural stone powder in its matrix so it continues to give you a refined, yet toothy edge?



+1


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## Marek07

Badgertooth
Where would the Takenoko (aka Arashiyama) 6K sit in the scheme of things? Would it be after the Khao Men? I'm currently avoiding my Chosera 3k and going from Chosera 1k > Khao Men before stropping. Doing this mainly to get a feel for the finishing available by stopping my sharpening on the Khao Men. I also have a Naniwa Junpaku (Snow White) 8k but leaving it idle for the moment.


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## Victor

Krassi said:


> HIho!
> 
> Well the JNS6000 is super awesome!
> 
> I also got it .. i bought it never used it for around 1 Year , tried it and wow awesome.. its like cream
> 
> And JNS 1000 is my actually sharpening stone.. the rest is polishing after that. I totally like it! 1k + 6k + khao men and Binsu is a super Combo breaker for everything.. and good preparation for following Suita Jnats and more.
> With Jns 6k and Kano Men and even JNS red aoto i have enough stuff for any steel before i use my suitas.
> 
> Actually this should do mostly for any kitchen knife  i am happy with the variety that i have..



Do you use the Khao Men and Binsu after the 1k + 6k?


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## Krassi

Hi!
Right now i am using JNS1k, Whitegrey Binsu, Khao Men and then directly Ohira Suita... 

I am getting a big orange Binsu and a mystery coarser yellow Binsu with pink renge Stuff next week from miles.
And also an Aizu from Japan.. so with all that stuff ia having a lot to test if the 6k is necessary and so on 

so binsu after 1k synthetic works very good and i havent tried the 6k yet after the khao men.


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## bennyprofane

gic said:


> Doesn't the Takenoko use natural stone powder in its matrix so it continues to give you a refined, yet toothy edge?



This seems to be another synth stone made with natural stone powder: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.morihei.co.jp/?pid=87750213

"By careful selection was natural stone the in the powder blended with several kinds of raw materials curing long quenching, have built a grinding stone close to the natural."

Has anyone used it?


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## Badgertooth

Marek07 said:


> Badgertooth
> Where would the Takenoko (aka Arashiyama) 6K sit in the scheme of things? Would it be after the Khao Men? I'm currently avoiding my Chosera 3k and going from Chosera 1k > Khao Men before stropping. Doing this mainly to get a feel for the finishing available by stopping my sharpening on the Khao Men. I also have a Naniwa Junpaku (Snow White) 8k but leaving it idle for the moment.



@marek07

I think you've intuitively got it right as skipping from 1k to Khao men will keep you honest as the quality of the final edge is largely going to depend on your accuracy on the 1k. It also gives you less opportunity to undo any good work with interceding stones. I've never seen the point of going to a synth after a natural but my answer regarding the Takenoko is because it is the most natural feeling synth I can think of and I don't necessarily think you'd undo any advantage obtained by sharpening on naturals before if you used it as a strop. But it's all conjecture as I've not tried it, though in another thread, @mucho bocho did and he commended it and he knows his way around the block. I think you've probably also got it right avoiding the Jyunpaku. It's the antithesis of a natural stone. Great for its purpose but I always see it as the final stone in a procession of Choseras and Shapton glass.


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## Doug

bennyprofane said:


> This seems to be another synth stone made with natural stone powder: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.morihei.co.jp/?pid=87750213
> 
> "By careful selection was natural stone the in the powder blended with several kinds of raw materials curing long quenching, have built a grinding stone close to the natural."
> 
> Has anyone used it?



Benny, I got one when I visited Morihei in March. Mr Akirahikari recommended the stone so I was happy to give it a try. He said it was 9k grit. 

I haven't tried the Takenoko to compare, but the descriptions sound similar. It feels softer and more coarse then my 8k Naniwa Junpaku (Snow White}but that might be because of the greater feedback this stone has. It does feel more like a natural then my synthetic stones. It gives a polished edge with some bite. Useful to refine a toothy edge coming off a mid grit stone.

It would be fun to compare the Hishiboshi Karasu to the Takenoko. They seem to fill a similar niche.


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## Badgertooth

Doug said:


> Benny, I got one when I visited Morihei in March. Mr Akirahikari recommended the stone so I was happy to give it a try. He said it was 9k grit.
> 
> I haven't tried the Takenoko to compare, but the descriptions sound similar. It feels softer and more coarse then my 8k Naniwa Junpaku (Snow White}but that might be because of the greater feedback this stone has. It does feel more like a natural then my synthetic stones. It gives a polished edge with some bite. Useful to refine a toothy edge coming off a mid grit stone.
> 
> It would be fun to compare the Hishiboshi Karasu to the Takenoko. They seem to fill a similar niche.



What's it like at Morihei?


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## Doug

Badgertooth said:


> What's it like at Morihei?



It's like Heaven Otto. Pure fricken Tennin Toishi Heaven. They have more stones then even you. :biggrin:
They speak very little English and my Japanese is equally deficient so communications were somewhat challenging.
Did manage to get the Aizu that I was looking for. I think you would love it there.
I'll post a thread soon with pictures of the shop.


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## Badgertooth

Can't wait to see it, very jealous.


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## DanHumphrey

I've said it before and I'll say it again: y'all are bad influences and enablers. After a couple of emails with Miles (he's super helpful as stated before), he sold me a slightly wider and shallower (than normal) Khao Men and a wide and shallow white Binsui for a great price last night. These are my first naturals, though I still want to get a Hideriyama from Jon when he gets back from Japan.


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## foody518

Enjoy! They are fun stones. Still can relive the moment I got the package and had ~20 pounds of stones sitting on my lap


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## malexthekid

Ok you naturL guys... can you tell me if you think any of these stones (khao men or white binsu) would be a good finisher for a razor? Or are they not fine enough?


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## alterwisser

malexthekid said:


> Ok you naturL guys... can you tell me if you think any of these stones (khao men or white binsu) would be a good finisher for a razor? Or are they not fine enough?



I don't think they are. I think you could finish a kitchen knife on the Khao men, but most would use one more stone after it even for knives


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## Badgertooth

alterwisser said:


> I don't think they are. I think you could finish a kitchen knife on the Khao men, but most would use one more stone after it even for knives



This. 

Ample for knives.

That said, I've seen Miles sharpen razors on them but I think it's as as prefinisher.


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## TheCaptain

Here are the stones







Here are the first knives I hand sharpened. I have to say I was very pleasantly surprised by how easy it was. This is the first time I ever used a natural stone and I let my german knives get dull on purposes since I wanted to practice on them before moving on the hand sharpening my better Japanese and custom knives.

The paring knife was so dull I couldn't get it to take an edge on the white binsui or kao men stone. I had to use the orange binsui to rough up the blade a bit before getting it to a sharper edge. The santoku took an edge a bit quicker and after a few minutes on each stone was able to slice through paper. DH was able to shave some of his forearm hair without slicing his skin so I guess I did ok?

I'm hooked. If a rank beginner can get decent results on the first try, just imaging what someone with experience can do. I have some jnats and synthetic stones coming and can't wait to see how they compare.


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## ynot1985

nice work, 

the khao men is on the fine side (maybe 2-3k) so you wont want to use it to set a new bevel with it on a dull blade



TheCaptain said:


> Here are the stones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the first knives I hand sharpened. I have to say I was very pleasantly surprised by how easy it was. This is the first time I ever used a natural stone and I let my german knives get dull on purposes since I wanted to practice on them before moving on the hand sharpening my better Japanese and custom knives.
> 
> The paring knife was so dull I couldn't get it to take an edge on the white binsui or kao men stone. I had to use the orange binsui to rough up the blade a bit before getting it to a sharper edge. The santoku took an edge a bit quicker and after a few minutes on each stone was able to slice through paper. DH was able to shave some of his forearm hair without slicing his skin so I guess I did ok?
> 
> I'm hooked. If a rank beginner can get decent results on the first try, just imaging what someone with experience can do. I have some jnats and synthetic stones coming and can't wait to see how they compare.


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## TheCaptain

@ynot1985 thanks for the feedback! I'm starting another thread with a question I'd appreciate your feedback on if you don't mind...


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## Vancouverguy

Just got this stone acouple of days ago wow. This stone is massive. By far the largest stone by weight and size I got. It muds super fast! Definately worth the buy


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## Robert

I am Thailand for some time , somebody know where the stones come from or where I can get them in Thailand?


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## foody518

Robert, get in touch with Miles from Aranyik


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## wbusby1

I find that the khao men (& white binsui for that matter) does not give a kasumi finish. First jnat I've used that polishes soft cladding to look pretty much identical to core (both shiny). Anyone else have different experience or thoughts why this would be? 

Like others here, highly recommend the stone, just not for those chasing after traditional cloudy kasumi finishes.

finally like others I wanna say: holy f**k these stones are huge!


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## foody518

@wbusby1 see my post 120 and 119 of this thread


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## wbusby1

foody518 said:


> @wbusby1 see my post 120 and 119 of this thread



Hm, looks like you got a heck of a lot more contrast than I've been getting.


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## foody518

wbusby1 said:


> Hm, looks like you got a heck of a lot more contrast then I've been getting.



Don't be afraid to start with some pressure to kick up mud


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## XooMG

Yeah, khao men likes a heavy hand in general.


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## mikaelsan

i'm sorry if this is a noob-ish question, but are these slate type stones? looks very interresting as an alternative finisher to my Dragons tongue stone


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## jaknil

No, absolutely not slate-type.


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## fatboylim

mikaelsan said:


> i'm sorry if this is a noob-ish question, but are these slate type stones? looks very interresting as an alternative finisher to my Dragons tongue stone



They are much better than slate stones. Much softer and easier to use than my Charney slate stone. 

Khao Men works best with water also, whereas the Charney stone suits oil better.


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## Olsen

If you mean the Charnley forest hone AFAIK it is a novaculite type like Arkansas hones. Not slate. I have one and also slate stones and my Charnley is definitely not slate.


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## fatboylim

Olsen said:


> If you mean the Charnley forest hone AFAIK it is a novaculite type like Arkansas hones. Not slate. I have one and also slate stones and my Charnley is definitely not slate.



Thank you for the correction! Apologies, I thought they were a slate type.


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## GRoc

jaknil said:


> No, absolutely not slate-type.



The Khao Men (rated at 2-3k) is the polar opposite of a slate type stone!
Faster cutting, muddy, requiring or rewarding a good deal of pressure.

The slate type of stones (at least the ones I have tried) are usually finishing stones or much higher grit "rating", usually 8k or higher.
The are very hard and precise stones, able to polish to grey silver or almost mirror like on the core, hardened steel. Due to their hardness they can be pretty detrimental to the quality of your edge or cause deep scratches on the cladding if careless...
The slates when used as a coticule can also provide great edges to straight razors, actually I prefer them on a carbon steel razor than for use on kitchen knives


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## Kingkor

Did anyone smell the gunpowder smell the stone makes while sharpening with it?


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## Badgertooth

I can't recall but I have smelt that prominently on some Suita.


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## never mind

It’s been two years. Any updates of usage & rotations of Khao Men over time? Any one changes their mind?


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## refcast

Khao men is finer than tsushima but softer, so the edge is less crisp but finer I guess. A good stone, but I still finish on Jnats. Its kinda nice as a prefinisher or coarser natural, but I like the edges from japanese stones better. Tsushima is kinda too hard for me to like much, but it has its purposes. More of a niche stone than a main stone though, unlike aoto.


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## never mind

Thank you so much! Do you still have a Heiji? Does it like Khao Men?


May I ask what J-Nat finisher that you have gives you the best Heiji edge? Would you mind to share your sharpening progression for your Heiji?


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## XooMG

never mind said:


> It’s been two years. Any updates of usage & rotations of Khao Men over time? Any one changes their mind?


They aren't superfine finishers and they aren't very fast, so their usage range is somewhat limited. The grey mud doesn't give a lot of visual feedback about cutting speed, and the finish isn't super high contrast.

It isn't a bad stone for what it is, but it lacks many of the things that make some other stones covetable. Perhaps most importantly, information about it is limited and there is little in the way of a compelling narrative.

I rarely use mine now because I have too many other stones in the range.


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## refcast

When I had a Heiji semistainless, . . . well that knife liked being sharpened on pretty much anything I had.

I have a Heiji carbon now and . . . in sharpening its a little more stiff and wear resistant, like the steel matrix is harder, probably because it is.

I use a Narutaki Suita that is tool stone hardness as a finisher on my knives. I doesn´t matter too much how I get there. . . 

Honestly, at this point with my sharpening, I can get a great edge at any grit 1000 and above. The higher grits just make the very edge more polished or thinner and with less friction. So they sink through food with less force, which I do like, but I do stop at the Narutaki, even though I have and have tried razor stones and have gotton more slick edges, it´s not worth the hassle to me.

Progression from chipped edge was--
aoto
khao men
narutaki suita

although i coulda just gone from a 1k to 6k to narutaki suita.

I like Heiji a lot because the edge feels like a burr. Even though the burr comes off. And I make darn well sure it comes off. . . 

Which is to say keep your fingers as close to the edge as possible when you´re doinig your final strokes to refine the edge, then reduce pressure and speed. Edge trailing vs leading doesnt matter as much compared to this.

I´m happy with Heiji and the edge I can get, and I like it more than the edge from my previous favorite with both flavors of TF.

I like khao men as a slower 6k synth replacement because I´m lazy to break out the soaking stones.


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## never mind

XooMG said:


> [A]ren't superfine finishers...aren't very fast...grey mud...visual feedback...



Exactly! You are a mind reader. This is an insightful, thoughtful & kind description (I read through 6 pages of this & more info circa 2016-7). I just wanted to know really all of these. Thank you.


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## never mind

refcast said:


> When I had a Heiji semistainless, . . . well that knife liked being sharpened on pretty much anything I had.
> 
> I have a Heiji carbon now and . . . in sharpening its a little more stiff and wear resistant, like the steel matrix is harder, probably because it is.
> 
> I use a Narutaki Suita that is tool stone hardness as a finisher on my knives. I doesn´t matter too much how I get there. . .
> 
> Honestly, at this point with my sharpening, I can get a great edge at any grit 1000 and above. The higher grits just make the very edge more polished or thinner and with less friction. So they sink through food with less force, which I do like, but I do stop at the Narutaki, even though I have and have tried razor stones and have gotton more slick edges, it´s not worth the hassle to me.
> 
> Progression from chipped edge was--
> aoto
> khao men
> narutaki suita
> 
> although i coulda just gone from a 1k to 6k to narutaki suita.
> 
> I like Heiji a lot because the edge feels like a burr. Even though the burr comes off. And I make darn well sure it comes off. . .
> 
> Which is to say keep your fingers as close to the edge as possible when you´re doinig your final strokes to refine the edge, then reduce pressure and speed. Edge trailing vs leading doesnt matter as much compared to this.
> 
> I´m happy with Heiji and the edge I can get, and I like it more than the edge from my previous favorite with both flavors of TF.
> 
> I like khao men as a slower 6k synth replacement because I´m lazy to break out the soaking stones.




you are also a mind reader. Scary. Felt this coming. F*uk me! Exactly what I need, the precise updates to patch so many information holes & knowledge gaps! I read TOO MUCH about khao men, heiji, expensive ohira/nakayama maruka and humble narutaki but going no where haha!


Which ones below that you get the sharpest (most polished, least friction, best ability to go thru food) out of the aoto/Khao men/narutaki suita progression?


Heiji iwasaki carbon steel, TF Denka, Heiji semi-stainless, and TF white? And which one is quickest to get there for you?


I definitely don’t like to grab all soaking stones that I have as well. Thank you for the tips from getting “the last burrs” off the heiji!


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## refcast

Heiji carbon gets the edge I like the fastest. TF both steels can feel harder and give less feedback in sharpening and in use. In use it's like I push down into food and then suddenly it penetrates. Heiji is a bit more continuous and I need to press less hard somehow, so it "feels" sharper that way, which is why I like it.

Narutaki suita is my favorite, so I've been using it the most. I have some super duper nakayama kiita (medium-hard and really fine but fastish cutting) and I don't really like them. I also have super hard fine okudo asagi type stuff and shobudani, and they don't really matter much. I would use them for razors, but controlling them for knives is kind of a waste of time, especially for the large bevel. When I mean waste of time, I mean go ahead and buy it if you really want, but I did and I don't like to use them. Choosing a knife and sharpening techniques mattered more, in that order.

In terms of hardness and fineness, it seems like the narutaki is a tad harder than the ohira renge around here, and a tad finer. Just preferences.

I like Heiji carbon > heiji semi > tf denka > tf white, but really, they are more different steels. . . they sharpen and get different kinds of sharp. If you want the most wicked "I don't like you and I never liked you" kind of sharp, the TF denka does that, because after the initial infinitesmally small hesitation, it rips right through food. But I like the Heiji flavor of sharp.

In terms of of polish . . . you can reduce frition substaintially if you polish with a specific polishing stone that don't tend to necessarily give the best edge, but I haven't bought stones for polishing, strictly. If you have hard stone, yeah I guess you can use it to burnish right before the very edge to reduce friction there, then add a real edge.

Edge parallel strokes tend to give less friction for the final edge, so you can do that, too, if you want, but they can have a tad less bite than edge leading and then edge trailing, respectively, in my own practice.

I mean . . . it wasn't a cheap narutaki suita though, so there's that. But really, I don't know. I used the cheaper hideriyama at Japanese Knife Imports and they were muddier than what I like, but I feel I could do well with them too. The muddier stones give a rounded and lower grit edge as default, and I like crisper bevels, so if that's what you're looking for, you can go to the harder end of stones, just not razor hard. Tool hard is the very practical limit, you just have to still have to kind of baby the edge though, and touch ups would require going to a lower grit and then the tool stone if you make it too dull. Not practical for most people; if this was more of a working knife I would get a medium-hard jnat more in the ohira range of things.

Anyway back the khao men -- I think if you get a jnat equivalent of it, it would be great. I think that jnats generally refine down more, even by feeling the grit between my fingers. Maybe choose one just a tad harder, and that would be great. But I think softer stones are more friendly to use cause they cut a lot faster, and if they get too muddy, just wash off the mud and sharpen slowly to approximate what I've been saying with the harder stones.

If you have specific questions you can directly message me as I think I'm getting off topic from khao men.


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## never mind

For me, what you and XooMG wrote about Khao Men were eye-opening and insightful. The true meaning of knife & cut. Thank you. I still remember your February posts. Very sharp but unique. Read them many times. Observing you expertly cut through a lot of craps that secret, powerful knife police were saying.


Hard Narutaki seems like a great stone after Khao Men to make your Heiji sharp. Your posts here & February posts relate to it in a deep way because I appreciate all the process how you thought through all of these, back and forth, left & right. for me it’s sometimes more important, especially that I like Heiji knife & consider the natural stone usage for Heiji heat treatment. I try to dial in what is best for me to own a Heiji knife, not being owned by it. Your posts were just more helpful than one dimension. They cut with care. Many people may not like. But I like it. Thank you.


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