# Eater: Why Restaurant Owners Are Increasingly Providing Knives to Their Kitchen Staff



## mengwong (Jul 26, 2022)

Why Restaurant Owners Are Increasingly Providing Knives to Their Kitchen Staff


Some restaurateurs hope that supplying their cooks with the tools they need creates a more equitable kitchen




www.eater.com


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## crockerculinary (Jul 27, 2022)

Do not like.


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## sansho (Jul 27, 2022)

> This, Justice says, sets up a class divide that she hopes to chip away at. “There are vast cultural differences, kitchen to kitchen, but I think there’s a self-selecting and gatekeeping quality to this,” she says. Having your own knives has become expected in fine dining spaces, which means if you can’t afford them, you aren’t considered dedicated enough for fine dining jobs, and the cycle goes around and around. *Providing knives is a way to open up the industry, especially for workers of marginalized backgrounds. “It really stems from a need to encourage and entice queer food workers to come work with us,”* she says. “It’s like anything else: You can’t invite people from a certain intersection without first being prepared to make the environment supportive of them.”



what does being queer have to do with ANY of this? are queer people poor? unknowledgeable about or disinterested/uninitiated in kitchen equipment?

who's maintaining these workplace-provided knives? also, does everyone get their own uniquely assigned to them? how are they keeping them straight? do they sharpie their names on them? does the kitchen put asset tags on each knife? 

weird article, lol


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## sansho (Jul 27, 2022)

i'm cracking up imagining the automotive version of this.

imagine these noble, big-impact reformers chasing the snap-on and mac dealers out of the area with pitchforks and trying to make the shops provide tools to their employees. communal toolboxes for everyone! i'm sure that would go over real well with mechanics. and somehow make it more queer-friendly and inclusive.


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## MarcelNL (Jul 27, 2022)

HUH, so the problem is that when starting a new job you need to invest like a 1000 in knifes and not just the the one time they start a job as cook, or a cook cannot afford to buy knifes at all? The solution IMO would be to pay cooks better, or setup a 'knife allowance' not by potentially handicapping them using blunt tools selected by someone else.


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## Bensbites (Jul 27, 2022)

I read this differently. I see this restaurant owner as someone who has probably experienced discrimination against the LGBQT community / economically disadvantaged. They are trying to remove barriers and create opportunities for the patrons and employees. The owner isn’t requiring anyone to use house knives, just enabling someone not to have to buy their own.


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## Emieloss (Jul 27, 2022)

If people work in the same place, they will probably earn the same wage. So they'll have about the same money to spend on knives (ofcourse there will be some differences in home situations and costs that are accompanied by that). I feel like giving everybody knives will just make them beat them up and don't care for them properly. If something is yours, you simply see it as more valuable and care for it better. Plus, you can actually pick something that suits you.

In the restaurants I worked in there, were always house knives available, but most people still had their own knives. This is because the house knives were often used as beaters or for people on internship. They were usually quite crap because noone cared for them properly.

I do agree with the article that it was hard buying proper knives. Especially the first few years since the wages weren't great. Most of us started of with cheaper things like victorinox until we could pay for german knives or entry level japanese knives like Tojiro.

Therefor, in my opinion, they should either 1) Pay them better 2) give every person a certain amount of budget to buy knives/tools to work in the restaurant.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 27, 2022)

> Even if cooks do use their own knives, Justice hopes that by providing good tools, restaurants can help them be more discerning about when to bring them out. “If you’re making vegetable stock and you need to just cut an onion in half, you shouldn’t have to slide your $700 Gyuto out of your leather knife roll that has your name embossed in it,” she says.




I'm only a home cook, but i feel there's more than providing quality tools to employees here.


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## Racheski (Jul 27, 2022)

sansho said:


> who's maintaining these workplace-provided knives? also, does everyone get their own uniquely assigned to them? how are they keeping them straight? do they sharpie their names on them? does the kitchen put asset tags on each knife?



My current part time gig uses a knife service that drops off sharpened knives and picks up the used ones for about $15 per week. The service provides the knives and they are really really cheap quality. I told the owner to buy an electric chefs choice and save money, but she likes the service for whatever reason.


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## Ericfg (Jul 27, 2022)

So many buzzwords... Ashamed of myself for wasting 2 minutes of my day off reading this Mcshite.


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## ian (Jul 27, 2022)

Yea, I’m not sure why everyone hates this article. (Ok, there _is_ the statement that not everyone needs to buy $700 gyutos. Guess it makes sense that this wouldn’t go over well on kkf. And I get why a retailer wouldn’t like the article.  @crockerculinary.)

You’ve just got a restaurant owner just saying that people shouldn’t have to buy their own work equipment if they don’t want to do so. Y’all are quibbling about “well, does she even maintain the knives?”…. Well, maybe she does and maybe she doesn’t, it doesn’t say, although I’d guess yes, but you’re acting like the fact that this isn’t specified in the article invalidates her argument, when it wouldn’t be that hard to have someone come in every week to sharpen.

As for “they should just pay more, or give a knife stipend”. I mean, ok, paying more is good. But they’re on a budget, and they probably think that it’s an easy measure to just provide knives rather than expect everyone to spend money on them. I seriously don’t see what’s so objectionable about providing the tools your employees need. She’s not requiring anyone to use them. I mean, at lower end restaurants, are there not a bunch of house knives? Probably not a truly alien concept in the industry.

As for the statement about queer inclusivity, yea, that seems a little off topic, but I take it to mean that her mission started out as trying to encourage queer people to work there, so she’s thinking about inclusivity issues, and this can be considered an inclusivity issue. Anyway, her argument for why knives should be provided is clear, independent of this statement, so why is it so bothersome?

Heh whatever tho. I’m not a pro of course, so my opinion’s uninformed. I just didn’t find this article any more objectionable than the 10,000 other mediocre articles out there.


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## tag98 (Jul 27, 2022)

sansho said:


> i'm cracking up imagining the automotive version of this.
> 
> imagine these noble, big-impact reformers chasing the snap-on and mac dealers out of the area with pitchforks and trying to make the shops provide tools to their employees. communal toolboxes for everyone! i'm sure that would go over real well with mechanics. and somehow make it more queer-friendly and inclusive.


As a heavy equipment mechanic i can confirm that shared tooling is a royal pain in the ass, we all have our standard kits and anything specialty, which in the heavy world is typically is just really big **** is provided through a company tool room. Its a pain, shits constantly getting broken or going missing because no one has pride in it. Everyone should be able to provide the basics, everyone sharing knives would be like everyone in a shop using the same socket set, work might get done but its gonna be a ****** experience


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## Bensbites (Jul 27, 2022)

tag98 said:


> As a heavy equipment mechanic i can confirm that shared tooling is a royal pain in the ass, we all have our standard kits and anything specialty, which in the heavy world is typically is just really big **** is provided through a company tool room. Its a pain, shits constantly getting broken or going missing because no one has pride in it. Everyone should be able to provide the basics, everyone sharing knives would be like everyone in a shop using the same socket set, work might get done but its gonna be a ****** experience


i have worked in tire and auto care shops. This is like comparing apples and oranges. 

A house set of chef knives can do 99% of what fancier knives can do. Maybe not as efficiently, nice knives are higher end tools, but they don’t make the chef. Mechanics can’t remove a 17 mm bolt with a 10 mm wrench.


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## Ochazuke (Jul 27, 2022)

Yeah, this article does a great job of throwing a bunch of related, but separate issues in one place. I boil it down to these three main points:

1) There is a sense of gatekeeping in high-end kitchens that is divorced from your skill set (i.e. - what kind of knives you use, what cookbooks you read, where you've staged). That can suck for people with the skill set and the drive but who don't come from money for fancy culinary schools with connections, expensive knives, or the luxury of time to read.

2) You do not, in fact, need an expensive knife to do the job. Most jobs provide the tools for you to do the job so it's kind of wack to (in essence) require one of the least paid professions to shell out big money for their own tools. 

3) A lot of pro kitchens are abusive af. A lot of the people working in them come from crap background and carry loads of their own trauma. Queer people tend to carry a little bit more of that due to stigma, and most kitchens aren't super politically correct. It's a fight for everybody to succeed in a kitchen, but it's *usually* a little bit harder for folks who are different. 
---
I don't think there's anything in particularly wrong about these points, though it doesn't summarize every kitchen or every chefs' experience. I remember saving for six months to be able to afford my first real knife with my own money on a cook's salary. It was only $300-ish if I remember right, but that was a huge amount of money for me back then. I worked super hard and studied to be worthy of the time and money I put in to buying that knife. I took care of that knife like it was my baby and I still have that knife. It gave me a sense of ownership of my work and drove me to be a better chef. 

I think there's an awful lot to be said for places that provide house knives that aren't garbage and teach their chefs to care for them and give them the time to do so. I also think there's a lot to be said for having your own knives. I don't think it's crazy to allow both to exist in the same establishment. I do think it's crazy to judge somebody's kitchen-worthiness based on what knives they can afford.


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## labor of love (Jul 27, 2022)

I’ve repeatedly told my staff to run their knife purchases by me before ordering. Somehow they still insist on buying absolute garbage dammy knives from social media ads instead from vendors even with $150 budgets.
I do feel her pain in the sense I’d rather just buy their knives for them. It sounds like she just bought tojiro DP/Mac house knives and used the opportunity to get some politically loaded publicity out of the experience.


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## esoo (Jul 27, 2022)

As a home chef, I'd always assumed that 
- most restaurants supplied house knives, that were the crap ones that were sharpened weekly by "the service"
- that chefs who wanted better (like the ones that are on this forum) are in the very, very small minority.

This is based on my totally random impression of the average run of the mill North American restaurant.

I could see that it could be different in the "high-end" or something like professional sushi.

At the end of the day, the reality is that more good food is prepared with dull crap knives than good knives.


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## Racheski (Jul 27, 2022)

I fundamentally don't agree with the premise of the article - that asking cooks to bring their own knives creates a class divide and gate-keeper effect for fine dining that ostracizes certain groups. I have never met nor heard a story about a chef who required their cooks to buy expensive knives - they only cared whether the knives were sharp. There are plenty of good chef knives for under $30 that if well maintained can perform great. What restaurant is requiring their line cooks to buy $500 worth of gear just to get started?


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## MarcelNL (Jul 27, 2022)

I just started wondering, as a home cook....do cooks get any training on knifes and knife maintenance ? In the end it all starts there.


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## ian (Jul 27, 2022)

Racheski said:


> I fundamentally don't agree with the premise of the article - that asking cooks to bring their own knives creates a class divide and gate-keeper effect for fine dining that ostracizes certain groups. I have never met nor heard a story about a chef who required their cooks to buy expensive knives - they only cared whether the knives were sharp. There are plenty of good chef knives for under $30 that if well maintained can perform great. What restaurant is requiring their line cooks to buy $500 worth of gear just to get started?



It’s probably more like why some schools require uniforms. House knives don’t convey status. If you’re bringing your own knives and yours are $30 while the other guy’s are $500 show pieces, that’s a status differential.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jul 27, 2022)

Ochazuke said:


> _SNIP ..._
> ---
> I don't think there's anything in particularly wrong about these points, though it doesn't summarize every kitchen or every chefs' experience. I remember saving for six months to be able to afford my first real knife with my own money on a cook's salary. It was only $300-ish if I remember right, but that was a huge amount of money for me back then. I worked super hard and studied to be worthy of the time and money I put in to buying that knife. I took care of that knife like it was my baby and I still have that knife. It gave me a sense of ownership of my work and drove me to be a better chef.
> 
> _SNIP ..._


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## M1k3 (Jul 27, 2022)

MarcelNL said:


> I just started wondering, as a home cook....do cooks get any training on knifes and knife maintenance ? In the end it all starts there.


Depends on the place, but in my experience, generally no. 

Unless you count being berated when you inevitably cut yourself.


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## crockerculinary (Jul 27, 2022)

ian said:


> Yea, I’m not sure why everyone hates this article. (Ok, there _is_ the statement that not everyone needs to buy $700 gyutos. Guess it makes sense that this wouldn’t go over well on kkf. And I get why a retailer wouldn’t like the article.  @crockerculinary.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, remember Ian, i was a chef before being a retailer, and that is where my bristling comes from.

I think the articles whole premise about this “issue” is misguided, and therefore everything that follows doesn’t compute.

I believe the “knife culture situation” that they are complaining about is actually inherently a good thing. Here’s why-

First, I’ve worked at a lot of restaurants, and they all have at least a handful of beaters available if someone doesn’t have their own, and if for some reason the restaurant didn’t, I, and most chefs (or one of the cooks) would always have something they would let you use. It was almost a ritual for me when I started a new position to hide all the beat up and burnt up white handled Dexters, and replace them with some inexpensive but 1000% better knives for community use.

And then, claiming that there was an expectation to buy 700 dollar knives to be able to start a job is just ridiculous. It’s definitely changed a bit over the past handful of years (a good thing in my view), but in my time, even the top tier chefs mostly had things like Misono ux-10s, or maybe a Mcusta or other sub 250 dollar knife, and cooks considered those high end and badass. If they even noticed. And if you were new, there was no “expectation” to buy something expensive and there are always lots of low cost starter options - Kiwi, Victorinox, etc. And i never saw anyone shamed for not having high end knives.

I think its good thing that cooks should be expected to have and be responsible for their own tools. In the past there hasn’t been much support for them to figure it all out, but certainly thats changing with more awareness and more resources, and cooks and chefs are finally starting to learn more about knives and their maintenance.

The best thing would be to simply be able to pay them well so that a $200 dollar knife purchase isn’t a struggle. But capitalism being what it is….

I think the better thing would be for chefs and knife folk to “act locally” and help create a positive knife culture in their restaurant, and i have seen a lot of desire for that. As an example when I was a chef I gifted a number of knives to cooks who worked hard but had ****** knives. I tried to teach my cooks where I could and encourage them, and gave them information and recommendations appropriate to their level.

Anyway, what this restaurant is doing is fine, but its the framing of the article, that quality knives are a classist thing and an injustice that needs to be addressed by giving everyone the same mediocrity, and that people would be more content workers like that, that I take exception to.

Sure its more equitable, but there is zero room for personality and appreciation or passion for the tools. And that I definitely do not like. I think if a company wanted to do a really good thing, they would give their employees who needed one small kit with the tools necessary for the job. And help educate them in maintenance. Or just a small equipment expense. Or just pay people better, but thats a whole different discussion. Or is it?

Caveat- their are certainly crappy and rude cooks and people out there who have probably made other people feel small cause they didn’t have fancy knives, and i don’t want to discount that. Snobby people are snobby, and that’s lame, so i think it’s important for us as “knife ambassadors” to remember to meet people where they are and be nice to folks who dont know any better. I have people coming in all the time that think $50 is expensive for a knife, because for them, it is. And i try to have something for them. Hell i have something if they only have $10. And if they dont have $10, i have something I’ll just give them. I see folks on the forums all the time talking past people and being snobby, and id love to see that change in the knife community.

TLDR what @Racheski said.


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## ian (Jul 27, 2022)

crockerculinary said:


> Well, remember Ian, i was a chef before being a retailer, and that is where my bristling comes from.
> 
> I think the articles whole premise about this “issue” is misguided, and therefore everything that follows doesn’t compute.
> 
> ...



Well, that all makes good sense, and I certainly trust your appraisal of the situation more than mine, so I’ll probably shut up now! I do see value in the kind of atmosphere she’s trying to build at her restaurant — seems like this approach towards knives is emblematic of her more general management style, which aims for a minimally toxic environment.

I agree the article is trying hard to hype up the conflict between the personal / communal knife approaches, tho.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 30, 2022)

sansho said:


> what does being queer have to do with ANY of this? are queer people poor? unknowledgeable about or disinterested/uninitiated in kitchen equipment?



two things:

as it happens queer people do tend to have lower net worths than non-queer people, especially BIPOC queer people, especially those of an age who would first be entering kitchens
the restauranter herself is a out trans woman. she is literally telling you what being queer has to with this. not only in this article, but also this one right here which is a more extensive interview.
Dunno I guess since I am not a restaurant worker but Telly Justice has a strong resume so if she says this stuff matters I'm willing to listen. Maybe she's wrong, but since she lived it herself, I think there's at least a pretty good chance she's got a point.


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## Jovidah (Jul 30, 2022)

ian said:


> It’s probably more like why some schools require uniforms. House knives don’t convey status. If you’re bringing your own knives and yours are $30 while the other guy’s are $500 show pieces, that’s a status differential.


Is it though? I mean, wages might be low but they're not THAT low. It just shows who bothers to spend more of their limited salary in their work tools and who doesn't. At the end of the day they still get the same salary. It's not like there's a load of billionaire kids running around showing off their wealth by bringing Kramer knives to their line cook job they only do as a hobby...


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## ian (Jul 30, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> Is it though? I mean, wages might be low but they're not THAT low. It just shows who bothers to spend more of their limited salary in their work tools and who doesn't. At the end of the day they still get the same salary. It's not like there's a load of billionaire kids running around showing off their wealth by bringing Kramer knives to their line cook job they only do as a hobby...



Good point, although same salary doesn’t imply same expendable income. As an extreme example, imagine someone with no debt living with a roommate vs someone with tons of debt trying to support a family. The richest I’ve ever felt was when I was a postdoc earning half of what I earn now.

Probably this is not a huge issue that’s tearing every kitchen apart, it’s just something that she thinks is antithetical to the kind of communal culture she’s trying to build at her place. But anyway, people who’ve actually worked in kitchens are more equipped to talk about this than I am.



tcmx3 said:


> but also this one right here which is a more extensive interview.



Nice, that was an interesting read.


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## ecchef (Jul 30, 2022)

Self aggrandizing ’virtue signaling’ bull$hit.


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## tcmx3 (Jul 30, 2022)

ecchef said:


> Self aggrandizing ’virtue signaling’ bull$hit.



which bit, the part where she literally opened a restaurant and started giving her staff free knives?

that's not signalling. that's literally the opposite of signalling. do you even know what the words virtue signaling even mean?

this term "virtue singaling" has to be the result of some serious brain worms because no one who says it appears to actually understand what it means or the history of signaling theory. take it from a person whose field coined this concept/term, people sound dumb when they use it.

wanna do keywords? do I get to call your post a dog whistle?


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## captaincaed (Jul 30, 2022)

Are the staff required to use the house knives?


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## M1k3 (Jul 30, 2022)

I'd eat there.


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## bsfsu (Jul 31, 2022)

crockerculinary said:


> Well, remember Ian, i was a chef before being a retailer, and that is where my bristling comes from.
> 
> I think the articles whole premise about this “issue” is misguided, and therefore everything that follows doesn’t compute.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you have said. I was a chef for 20+ years. In NZ we trained classical french cuisine in most chef schools/collages. You are expected to bring your own knife kit to school. Bringing your own kit is part of the schooling and industry in NZ.

If your a 'kitchen trained chef' you would have to use the beaters in the kitchen till you could afford a knife or were gifted a knife. 

Knife culture is different in each kitchen, when you get to high end kitchens (I have worked high-end kitchens/super yatchs/private around the world) the knife culture naturally slides towards the high end kitchen cutlery. It's not a snobby thing as, in my opinion, the prep must be to a higher standard and low end knives don't cut the mustard. Prep made with a Vic/kiwi (nothing to do with New Zealand) can't touch something done with a thinner higher end knife. 

Usually chefs have a basic knowledge of knife care and maintenance and it's up to the 'knife guy chef' or senior chefs to up-skill the junior chefs.

All of this is from a New Zealand training point of view but I found it applies to kitchens around the world.

I was the senior/head/exec chef who was also the knife guy. Now I sell Japanese kitchen cutlery, still trying to up-skill chefs and home cooks.


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## sansho (Jul 31, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I'd eat there.



same. sounds interesting:







i like the simplicity of the menu, though the "homosalad" is pretty goofy. i love the tip-less restaurant paradigm in general.

weird that they don't seem to have any reviews on google maps. what's up with that?

one thing though. jmho...



> Justice and Lindsley always knew that when they opened their first restaurant, it would have some queer sensibilities, but until the pandemic, Justice says, “we didn’t imagine that it was going to lead with queerness, until we decided to center ourselves in our work. And then it was a no-brainer: *This is going to be queer first, restaurant second.* It has to be.”



if i had a restaurant, i personally wouldn't say that it'd "be a restaurant second". but i get that it's about more than just food to them. and if the food's good, then whatever.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 31, 2022)

tcmx3 said:


> which bit, the part where she literally opened a restaurant and started giving her staff free knives?
> 
> that's not signalling. that's literally the opposite of signalling. do you even know what the words virtue signaling even mean?
> 
> ...



It's not hard to understand what virtue signalling is.

From Google/Oxford Languages:


the action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.
"it's noticeable how often virtue signaling consists of saying you hate things"

Curiously, the owner's own words consists of saying how the owner despises the expectation that line cooks ought to own/purchase their own kitchen tools.


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## btbyrd (Jul 31, 2022)

It's harder than just Googling a definition, apparently.


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## labor of love (Jul 31, 2022)

btbyrd said:


> It's harder than just Googling a definition, apparently.


No it’s quite easy to see. The hard part is the self deception it takes to pretend it’s not happening.


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## ian (Jul 31, 2022)

As much as I love arguing over definitions, all this mostly seems to be an excuse to replace discussion with insults. On the one hand, we usually use the phrase virtue signaling when the person is _not_ also taking concrete actions in support of whatever virtues they’re signaling. She’s putting her money where her mouth is. On the other hand, we sometimes use the phrase virtue signaling when someone is taking some sort of meaningless (but advertised) action in support of some cause. If you are one of the people who thinks her stance on knives etc… is meaningless (I don’t) you could consider this virtue signaling.


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## M1k3 (Jul 31, 2022)

Owner sees problem within their community.

Does something to help fix said problem.

Third party writes poorly written article.

Owner is 'virtue signaling'?


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## labor of love (Jul 31, 2022)

Yes yes this all very cute. I have no problem with virtue signaling in itself and I don’t understand why others consider it to be an insult. It just is what it is, this chef publicizing moral high ground or opposition to some norm. It’s great for business to, as it activates a shared morality with the business and customers.


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## btbyrd (Jul 31, 2022)

I hate arguing over definitions, but I used to do it professionally. A couple of my collogues literally wrote the book on moral grandstanding. Sometimes virtue signaling is morally neutral, or even praiseworthy. But in common use it's used as a pejorative to attack people who attempt to enhance their status by engaging in empty actions or speech. As in "Self-aggrandizing ******** virtue signaling." That's clearly the sort of usage that the first person in this thread had in mind. But part from the knife thing, this restaurant has adopted a lot of nonstandard policies in an attempt to create a more equitable, humane, and inclusive work environment. It's not virtue signaling in the pejorative sense. If one isn't aware of multiple senses/usages of the term, one doesn't really understand it. And simply googling a definition isn't really going to give you an insight into the theory. That's all I was trying to say.

I don't know whether or not knife ownership creates the sorts of problems that this policy is designed to solve. I also find it difficult to believe that a restaurant that serves exclusively higher end tasting menus is going to have problems attracting competent cooks who also own their own knives -- especially if they're doing the tip-pooling and wage sharing or whatever scheme they've got going on over there. But the practice makes sense in light of their broader goal of having less division and more inclusiveness in their restaurant.


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## ian (Jul 31, 2022)

btbyrd said:


> I hate arguing over definitions, but I used to do it professionally.



Eh, come again now? More details, my brother.


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## btbyrd (Jul 31, 2022)

Ex-academic philosopher.


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## labor of love (Jul 31, 2022)

The word Queer itself was used as pejorative for many decades but no longer remains one. Language and intent can be quite fluid overtime. 
Also appeal to authority fallacy. Also there is evidently no debate over the definition. 
My contention is that an defined act that is considered a pejorative by others is still that defined act. Anything else is just deception.


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## Jovidah (Jul 31, 2022)

One could argue half this forum is people virtue signalling according to their own knife fetish standards.  Lars gets the virtue signalling cake for his contributions in the what's cooking thread. How dare he cook such good looking food on an almost daily basis in a home setting and show it off?


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## btbyrd (Jul 31, 2022)

I can count on zero hands the number of times I've seen a non-academic use "virtue signal" as anything other than a pejorative term. The common sense of the term is inherently moralized and is intended to identify costless moral speech or acts that are intended to raise one's moral status. But virtue signaling does not have to be intentional; actions and speech can signal virtue even if they were not intended to. But ordinary people virtually never talk about unintentional signaling, which is why the definition above (from Google) more narrowly defines virtue signaling as essentially intentional. That definition is incomplete, which is obvious to anyone who knows anything about signaling theory (which you can't quite do just by Googling definitions). Pointing that out is not gatekeeping or appealing to authority.

Back to knives...


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## labor of love (Jul 31, 2022)

“I can count on zero hands the number of times I've seen a non-academic use”
“ we usually use the phrase”
“we sometimes use the phrase virtue signaling”
All anecdotal evidence. Which is fine but folks are hinging their argument on what is perceived rather than what is. 

Mentioning a professional background shouldn’t be pertinent. Either you make a case or you don’t.


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## btbyrd (Jul 31, 2022)

When you're talking about the meaning of words in context as used by a linguistic community, mentioning the specific community is pertinent. Non-academics use "virtue signaling" almost exclusively an accusation or criticism. And that's how it was used in this thread, so...


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 31, 2022)

Usually there is more to a theory than a single definition, be it from Google or elsewhere.
If the definition from Google is narrowly defined, it doesn't change the fact that the case in question is supposed to be about intentional signaling.
Also, the intent to demonstrate moral correctness could be done subconsciously as it frequently happens when one is raised in an environment in which that behaviour is repeated. So, Google's definition is not far-off the point as it doesn't talk about conscious intention, but only intention.

I have never seen a perfect definition of consciousness, so the flaw in Google's definition, if we choose to accept that all intent is conscious, is not only Google's as we don't know exactly what is consciousness.









Conscious intention: a challenge for AIR theory


A primary goal of any theory of consciousness is to provide an informative account of what makes the difference between conscious and nonconscious mental states. Typically, whether or not a given theory is successful in this regard is measured with respect to its ability to explain what it is...




www.frontiersin.org





Pointing out people don't know what they are talking about when they correctly conveyed their thoughts sounds condescending to me.
If one doesn't see an attempt by the owner to self-promote, others may have a different opinion. It's not a fact that the owner is not virtue signaling in the pejorative sense, that's what is being discussed here.

Anyway, i feel we could agree to have different opinions if the owner of the restaurant is virtue signaling or not in the pejorative sense, but i don't get why if someone says it's virtue signaling in the pejorative sense, then that person must be mistaken.


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## tcmx3 (Aug 1, 2022)

Wow that's a lot of fancy words to defend a person who clearly meant it in the "I wish these queer people would quit being so queer in front of me" way.


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## Noodle (Aug 1, 2022)

Interesting conversation--and why this is a great forum. I don’t work at a restaurant any more, but it reminds me of it, and how restaurant work attracts such a diverse workforce. Caring folks, dumbos, super smart people (and smart-mouths), tough guy/gals/whatever-binary types, criminals, or the criminally inclined, artists, addicts, right wingers, communists, immigrants, religious fanatics, a**holes. The list goes on. Not always, but usually, most came from pretty modest backgrounds. Restaurants then, and today still provide a way for lower class, working people to get ahead and make half-decent money, at least as long as their bodies and minds can endure it. It was sometimes befuddling to get to know someone off work hours, and discover they had these other lives as philosophy students, or woodworkers, or gun nuts, or whatever. Sometimes this comes up on non-knife topics. This one started with a knife topic, but then, perhaps sadly to the original poster(?) has continued onto something deeper, and more revealing of the people here. Fascinating. At least to me.

As far as the original article, I’m kind of with M1k3. The owner sees a problem and is trying something new. It might not be the way you would approach it, if you even see it as a problem, but so what? We all tend to be either protective of the way we were trained—if you had a great experience, and critical if you didn’t. But I’d be ignorant to believe everyone’s experience was the same as mine, regardless. I can see both sides: I hated using communal knives, but coming up with the money for my own WAS a problem. This is a way to address it. Not a perfect way, but a way. I’d love to hear from white collar people if their employers took away their work computers or company cars. Most talk these days of “virtue signaling” or “wokeness” etc. seems like an effort to broadcast people’s politics, but usually doesn’t lead to useful solutions.

I’m sure this deserves a different thread, but what I see as a bigger problem: $155 for lunch. I know it’s New York City, and you have to pay for labor, rent, product, etc. But that’s a ton of money for one meal. There’s a push to bring down the wild disparity of CEO pay vs. the starting salary of people who work for them. I kind of see a parallel: if you really want to break down barriers, how about making the cost of eating at a decent restaurant possible for the people who work at the restaurant?


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## Marcelo Amaral (Aug 1, 2022)

I have begged several times my employer to let me use my personal computer for working tasks as my work computer is too slow and, consequently, time is lost. That's the result of being forced to use less efficient tools for the job: one takes more time to finish it and the task becomes less fulfilling to the worker. For security reasons, i was denied and i understand their point-of-view.

I totally agree that there are several different views and the owner, in my opinion, has the right to define the rules (as long as it's not against the law) at a private-owned restaurant. However, the criticism is also valid. Why shut down the critics? Like you said, "i'd be ignorant to believe everyone's experience was the same as mine".


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## Jovidah (Aug 1, 2022)

Noodle said:


> Interesting conversation--and why this is a great forum. I don’t work at a restaurant any more, but it reminds me of it, and how restaurant work attracts such a diverse workforce. Caring folks, dumbos, super smart people (and smart-mouths), tough guy/gals/whatever-binary types, criminals, or the criminally inclined, artists, addicts, right wingers, communists, immigrants, religious fanatics, a**holes. The list goes on. Not always, but usually, most came from pretty modest backgrounds. Restaurants then, and today still provide a way for lower class, working people to get ahead and make half-decent money, at least as long as their bodies and minds can endure it. It was sometimes befuddling to get to know someone off work hours, and discover they had these other lives as philosophy students, or woodworkers, or gun nuts, or whatever. Sometimes this comes up on non-knife topics. This one started with a knife topic, but then, perhaps sadly to the original poster(?) has continued onto something deeper, and more revealing of the people here. Fascinating. At least to me.
> 
> As far as the original article, I’m kind of with M1k3. The owner sees a problem and is trying something new. It might not be the way you would approach it, if you even see it as a problem, but so what? We all tend to be either protective of the way we were trained—if you had a great experience, and critical if you didn’t. But I’d be ignorant to believe everyone’s experience was the same as mine, regardless. I can see both sides: I hated using communal knives, but coming up with the money for my own WAS a problem. This is a way to address it. Not a perfect way, but a way. I’d love to hear from white collar people if their employers took away their work computers or company cars. Most talk these days of “virtue signaling” or “wokeness” etc. seems like an effort to broadcast people’s politics, but usually doesn’t lead to useful solutions.
> 
> I’m sure this deserves a different thread, but what I see as a bigger problem: $155 for lunch. I know it’s New York City, and you have to pay for labor, rent, product, etc. But that’s a ton of money for one meal. There’s a push to bring down the wild disparity of CEO pay vs. the starting salary of people who work for them. I kind of see a parallel: if you really want to break down barriers, how about making the cost of eating at a decent restaurant possible for the people who work at the restaurant?


I think your last part hits the nail on the head. There's a certain hipocrisy in claiming to champion equality (whether we want to describe this as virtue signalling or not) while at the same having a menu priced high enough to essentially be an upper class luxury.


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## Noodle (Aug 1, 2022)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> I have begged several times my employer to let me use my personal computer for working tasks as my work computer is too slow and, consequently, time is lost. That's the result of being forced to use less efficient tools for the job: one takes more time finish it and the task becomes less fulfilling to the worker. For security reasons, i was denied and i understand their point-of-view.
> 
> I totally agree that there are several different views and the owner, in my opinion, has the right to define the rules (as long as it's not against the law) at a private-owned restaurant. However, the criticism is also valid. Why shut down the critics? Like you said, "i'd be ignorant to believe everyone's experience was the same as mine".



Don't mistake me. I'm not an advocate of shutting down the critics at all. Like I said, I think the diversity of this forum is one of it's strengths. I happen to have my opinion, but am happy to hear others express theirs too.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Aug 1, 2022)

Noodle said:


> Don't mistake me. I'm not an advocate of shutting down the critics at all. Like I said, I think the diversity of this forum is one of it's strengths. I happen to have my opinion, but am happy to hear others express theirs too.



That's perfectly fine with me. It's nice to find common ground.


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## JayS20 (Aug 2, 2022)

Noodle said:


> I’m sure this deserves a different thread, but what I see as a bigger problem: $155 for lunch. I know it’s New York City, and you have to pay for labor, rent, product, etc. But that’s a ton of money for one meal. There’s a push to bring down the wild disparity of CEO pay vs. the starting salary of people who work for them. I kind of see a parallel: if you really want to break down barriers, how about making the cost of eating at a decent restaurant possible for the people who work at the restaurant?


Sorry but this is super infuriating to read and one of the reasons why cooks, chefs make so little money.
This is for a full menu. not just one meal. Also tips are already calculated into the price.
You already said it they have to pay for labor, rent. products...
So your solution is to lower the prices so all involved make even less money??! 
Also meals like this are more for special occasions and one offs, not for everyday.
You don't seem to see how much labor and money goes into this.
People are perfectly okay buying the newst iPhone every year or laptop and such, also owning a 60k+$ car but aren't willing to pay for good food and the people who produce it. 
I know people who have so much money and spend it for clothes, cremes and a personal trainer but still buy stuff from the discounter, don't look for good products or cook for themselves. Since it's not a status symbol.
As long as people aren't willing to pay for good produce and food so long cooks will live miserable lives. Be it working conditions or pay.
It's of course a different topic if the owner drives a Porsche and barely does anything while his employees barely get by.
Most star chefs make money via advertising and selling cook books and products, not by owning a restaurant.
But overall your sense of view is one of the reasons cooks don't get paid properly.


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## btbyrd (Aug 2, 2022)

KKF is a forum where many members are willing to pay a thousand dollars for a janky Denka. $150 for dinner in NYC shouldn't raise any eyebrows here. That isn't very much money in the context of a fine dining tasting menu, especially in NYC. And that's the price for dinner, not lunch (not that it really matters). As noted above, the gratuity is already included. I obviously don't know what the wages at HAGS really are, but I'm reasonably sure that the BOH staff is compensated quite competitively given the tipless gratuity system.
It's worth remembering that one day a week, the restaurant does a "pay what you want night" that's first come, first served. -- no reservations. That's a very egalitarian move for a fine dining restaurant, and I'm sure they'd make more money if they didn't do that. But they take the hit to foster a sense of community and inclusion with the dining public, just as they buy knives for their BOH staff to foster a sense of community and inclusion for their employees. They're putting their money where their mouth is. They've got free condoms and pads and fentanyl test strips in the bathroom along with the free breath mints. Their style and "queerness first" approach might not please everyone, but they've put a lot of thought into how their operation runs in order to make it actually promote values that are often overlooked in the industry. It's more than just empty verbiage.
If we're going to talk about absurd NYC fine dining virtue signaling nonsense, I think EMP's $365 vegan tasting menu deserves a nod. "Eating meat and fish isn't sustainable and we must protect the climate, so here's a bunch of plants flown in from all over the world that we have our team of 100 cooks torture and transform using boatloads of time, energy, money, and manpower. Bon appetit!" And they don't even offer free condoms.


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## Noodle (Aug 2, 2022)

JayS20 said:


> Sorry but this is super infuriating to read and one of the reasons why cooks, chefs make so little money.



I’m sorry my perspective has upset anyone, but I stand by it. This isn’t, by the way, a criticism of this restaurant or their employees. I’m sure HAGS is a terrific place, with terrific food. I appreciate they are trying a different approach to fine dining, and that they care about their workforce. I’m also certain their prices are in line with what other mid-high end restaurants are charging in NYC. I doubt the owner is coming to work in a Porsche. I understand how restaurants work, and I get that most margins are extremely thin. I don’t think the answer is to simply charge less, and that would solve the problem. This isn’t about HAGS, or any other restaurant like it overcharging customers. I don’t think that is happening, so don’t mistake me. But I also don’t think saying $155 (before any drinks, BTW) is a LOT of money for many people, is the reason why cooks and chefs make so little.

Maybe not for you, but for many of us—including my family, most of whom have spent years, if not careers in food service (I’ve cooked, catered, tended bar. My wife was a breakfast waitress for years and years), eating out has become a luxury activity. For those of us who make working class livings—like most restaurant people—it is increasingly difficult to justify enjoying the product of your hard work, and that IS a problem.

My city is awash in tech money, and it has become “normalized” to throw absurd amounts of money down for average meals. My son, who still works in food service, can’t. Well, he can’t if he wants to pay his rent. And he’s renting because he can’t afford to buy a house. He’ll never be able to afford a house in this city. House prices are insane, with bidding wars for tiny cottages. And it isn’t restaurant workers who are doing that bidding. Low wage earners are your brothers and sisters, not your enemy.

It isn’t a matter of whether people like me are “willing to pay for good produce and food” at your restaurant. We increasingly, simply can’t. I don’t hold restaurants responsible for this. They are only capitalizing on what the market will bear, I get that. But this market caters to the wealthy, and dining is one of the services that is affected. It’s a symptom of the wealth gap in this country, which has grown exponentially these last few decades, and which has corroded much of our American life, in my opinion. But please don’t fall into the trap of blaming the poor for the low salary you earn. That’s not on us.


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## JayS20 (Aug 2, 2022)

Hey @Noodle ,
I totally understand your perspective and agree with quite a lot. Just didn't think lowering prices in a restaurant is the solution. Especially when it comes to fine dining it's supposed to be a special occasion.
Germans really don't like to spend money on quality food and restaurants, quite the same goes for Americans although there the wealth gap is even worse. People rather spend money on propagated status symbols.
The French for example spend over 30% more of their income on food products compared to Germans.
Noone who works fulltime should have to worry about paying rent, getting by.
Why does someone who works 70hours per week earn way less than someone working 40???
Why is noone caring about ordinary people not being able to pay rent in the city they work in. Why isn't the city, community stopping this?
There is a city in Germany where a lot of job possibilites are but a lot of people can't afford to live in the city and even the suburbs are quite expensive.
There won't be any change though, as long as people don't stand up and that will never happen as long as they are doing fine comparably.
The wealthy accumulated even more the last 2 years while a lot of people fell into financial problems. This will only get worse.


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## M1k3 (Aug 2, 2022)

Fine dining= expensive.

Period.

Now there's different levels of expensive, but, so what? That's like complaining the average middle class person can't afford a Rolls Royce or Bugatti Veyron. Or mid-level Mercedes.

I've worked mostly Fine Dining/Upscale. I don't complain I can't afford to sit and dine with Mr. and Mrs. Maserati, hob nob with Joe Porsche Collector and his friend Bob "Big Collection" Ferrari.


There's different social issues I would complain about. But has nothing to do with this restaurant doing the best thing they can actually accomplish.


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## mengwong (Aug 3, 2022)

Noodle said:


> it is increasingly difficult to justify enjoying the product of your hard work





M1k3 said:


> Mr. and Mrs. Maserati, hob nob with Joe Porsche Collector and his friend Bob "Big Collection" Ferrari.


For context, footnoting some history from a century ago, since we're alluding to cars —









Why Did Henry Ford Double His Minimum Wage? | The Saturday Evening Post


As Obama presses for a higher minimum wage, the Post recalls Ford's shocking move 100 years ago to boost productivity by investing in his workers.




www.saturdayeveningpost.com













The Story of Henry Ford's $5 a Day Wages: It's Not What You Think


There's an argument you see around sometimes about Henry Ford's decision to pay his workers those famed $5 a day wages. It was that he realised that he should pay his workers sufficiently large sums to that they could afford the products they were making. In this manner he could [...]




www.forbes.com


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## M1k3 (Aug 3, 2022)

> and if the workers think they’ve got a good deal then they’re more likely to turn up on time, sober, and work diligently.


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## Naftoor (Aug 3, 2022)

mengwong said:


> For context, footnoting some history from a century ago, since we're alluding to cars —
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think it’s worth mentioning a few points here about ford paying his workers 5/day. It wasn’t some moral stance from him, it was like many of his actions a ruthless business decision. By taking away talent from his competitors he could cause their businesses to fail either due to inability to produce cars, or the resulting low quality of the cars. It also ensured workers showed up, on time and sober which boosted fords own productivity and quality. Finally by letting it’s workers afford the (cheap) model Ts, a vehicle they would have some degree of pride in making it ensured a few more sales that probably offset the increased pay quite a bit. 

It’s also worth mentioning that model Ts we’re meant for the mass market, they were not the fine dining of cars, but probably somewhere between McDonald’s and ruby tuesday. To modernize the cost it looks like the entry models went for 18-20k, which is a laughable sum for a new car in the modern era. They were a luxury in that they were new, and many families didn’t have motor vehicles. Beyond that, as the years went on, the price of the car dropped significantly, from around 900 at the time to around 350-400, which is right around 10k USD today. That took them firmly from “expensive but likely possible to many families” to “down right cheap” somewhere in the 5000 range. 

Paying workers to afford your product is excellent, but fine dining is a luxury item whereas the model T was priced to be a low price commodity specifically to make it a necessity for all homes to own one. Just like watchmakers who make Rolexes probably can’t afford them, or people who assemble Bugattis can’t fine dining is no different. The chefs at a small mom and pop hole in the wall, could no doubt afford to eat there, but I wouldn’t expect the chef at a high end restaurant to be able to do so on a regular basis.


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## mengwong (Aug 12, 2022)

esoo said:


> more good food is prepared with dull crap knives than good knives.








TikTok - Make Your Day


TikTok - trends start here. On a device or on the web, viewers can watch and discover millions of personalized short videos. Download the app to get started.




vt.tiktok.com


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## BillHanna (Aug 16, 2022)

mengwong said:


> TikTok - Make Your Day
> 
> 
> TikTok - trends start here. On a device or on the web, viewers can watch and discover millions of personalized short videos. Download the app to get started.
> ...


excuse me. I should hone my Spåres on EACH OTHER?!?


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## mengwong (Aug 16, 2022)

blokey said:


> View attachment 192978


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## ian (Aug 16, 2022)

BillHanna said:


> excuse me. I should hone my Spåres on EACH OTHER?!?



Wait, you have a spare Spare? Only big collectors have two of one maker. #impressed


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## M1k3 (Aug 16, 2022)

ian said:


> Wait, you have a spare Spare? Only big collectors have two of one maker. #impressed




I have 2 HSC's. Now I'm a collector? 
#notimpressed


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## BillHanna (Aug 16, 2022)

ian said:


> Wait, you have a spare Spare? Only big collectors have two of one maker. #impressed


I mean… I’m no KamonKing or WabiSabiHappyTimeOysterBoy. I was lucky to get my father son combo before Spåre was SPÅRE.


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## rmwall02 (Oct 3, 2022)

MarcelNL said:


> I just started wondering, as a home cook....do cooks get any training on knifes and knife maintenance ? In the end it all starts there.


We keep a couple of sets of stones around for our cooks to use. They’re not my best stones but I had one of the king combos around until it got soaked in chili oil accidentally. I’ve tried to take time sharpening my own stuff during the lull between station set up and service to go through and show how and when to sharpen/hone multiple times. Some guys take to it. Others ask that I sharpen their knives for them.


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