# New to JKs. Recommendation for 240 Gyuto needed.



## Drosophil (Aug 13, 2016)

Hello, everyone and thank you for all the great info here!

I've finally had enough of all the blunt knives in my kitchen and decided I need something better. I had my mind set on a Wüsthof, but then I found this forum and realized that, since I use the knives for various vegetables cuts and meat slicing, a sharp Japanese carbon steel knife would suit me much better. I take very good care of even my old and nasty knives. I also bought a cheap sharpening stone and started to teach myself the technique (I'm going to get some proper stones too, of course). The problem I have is that, since I'm very new to this and don't know much, even with all the research, I'm overwhelmed by the number of manufacturers and all the different types of steel, grind and cladding. I've found some knives in my budget on cleancut, but I've only managed to "narrow it down" to 6-7 knives.

LOCATION
Romania

KNIFE TYPE
Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Either's fine

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
240

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
200

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Mostly slicing, chopping and mincing vegetables and slicing meat.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
None

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push, slice and rock

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
I'm not really interested in aesthetics.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
No preferences here.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
What I want most is sharpness and good cutting performance. Also, I guess I'm less bothered by food sticking than by wedging.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Since I'm only now starting to learn how to sharpen, maybe I would benefit more from a knife that is better at holding an edge?

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Edge grain board, but i think I could have an end grain one made.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Thanks in advance for your suggestions and advice.

Cheers,
Silviu


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## F-Flash (Aug 13, 2016)

Kurosaki AS, aka Syousin chiku 240mm from James, knivesandstones.com

I have migaki version (with polished cladding and ebony handle). Very nice knife.


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## Drosophil (Aug 13, 2016)

That looks like a lovely knife, and shipping is free, but since it's going to be sent from outside the EU, it's probably going to be stuck in customs for weeks, event months. Plus, I'll have to pay another 50 euros or so in import tax and VAT.


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## James (Aug 13, 2016)

Itinomonn stainless, Tanaka VG10 or Blue 2, or Kamo R2 all seem to be decent choices.


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## Drosophil (Aug 13, 2016)

James said:


> Itinomonn stainless, Tanaka VG10 or Blue 2, or Kamo R2 all seem to be decent choices.



The only ones that I can find in EU are the Itinomon, at japanesenaturalstones.com (out of stock) and the Tanaka Blue 2 (slightly over my budget). Thank you for the recommendations, though, much appreciated.


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## Drosophil (Aug 13, 2016)

Any thoughts on these?

http://cleancut.se/butik/knivmodeller/kockknivar/kockkniv-6-detail
http://cleancut.se/butik/knivserier/goko-hamono/kockkniv-8-detail
http://cleancut.se/butik/knivmodeller/kockknivar/gyuto-3-2299-2300-detail
http://cleancut.se/butik/knivmodeller/kockknivar/kockkniv-1-detail


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## Benuser (Aug 13, 2016)

Misono Swedish with JCK, http://japanesechefsknife.com/SwedenSteelSeries.html#SwedenSteel
They carry Masahiro Virgin Carbons without advertising. IIRC the 240mm costs $114. Ask Mr Iwahara, [email protected] 
I never had to pay VAT nor handling costs with JCK, but that might be different though if your local custom officers are zealous as the German ones.
If you don't mind a narrow fingerguard, Herder's 1922. Usable length 220mm.
http://www.knivesandtools.de/de/pt/-robert-herder-1922-koksmes-20cm-carbon.htm


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## Drosophil (Aug 13, 2016)

Benuser said:


> I never had to pay VAT nor handling costs with JCK, but that might be different though if your local custom officers are zealous as the German ones.



Well, it kind of depends on what side of the bed they wake up that specific morning  This is why for now I'd rather buy from a European shop, but I'll think about it.


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## JaVa (Aug 13, 2016)

I have that exact Shiro Kamo Migaki 240 gyuto. I ordered it from Cleancut about two weeks ago. I wasn't really looking for a new knife but stumbled on this, saw that price and took a risk. And boy did it pay of. This is the the laserest (not a real word i know) laser you can find in 240 size. It is a sensational knife. I have nothing bad to say about it, not one.

Perfect profile for me (looong flat spot, great rockin' tip thats nimble and versatile) as good of a grind as such thin knife can ever have. Mine had absolutely flawless fit and finish. Sharpens like a dream. steel feels great on the stones and on the board. No Idea about edge retention yet. It has a little bit of flex but not too much. I was so freakin' happy that I ordered another Shiro Kamo with the same steel but otherwise different characteristics, the kurouchi 220. I've played around with it for a couple of days now and it's just as good, but for different reasons. 

(Do you know the song from Pharrell Willaims - Happy? That's what is playing in my head right now as I'm writing this! :tease 

For the price they are offered I don't understand why they aren't discussed more. Grab one before the price increases come!!!


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## easy13 (Aug 13, 2016)

Got a Kamo R2 in the mail yesterday, unfortunately it was when I got home from work so haven't put through the paces. So far so good though - fell through an onion, no issue with a sweet potato or carrot that I pulled out the fridge to at least test with either. Grind is pretty killer, F&F too, can't really address the rest - edge holding/sharpening.... Cheaper option to Tanaka R2 maybe. I'm off work for weekend but gonna cook dinner tonight, can report back.


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## JaVa (Aug 13, 2016)

Kashima would be a laser too just a little thicker then the Shiro Kamo. Yoshikane would be on the lighter side of middleweight. Goko is a Middleweight. All seem decent choices IMO. But Kamo's the only one i've used.

Btw the Itinomonn Stainless would be in stock again. I'm very interested in buying one for myself in the near future.
How about the Itinomonn Kasumi?


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## bennyprofane (Aug 13, 2016)

What does Cleancut charge for shipping outside of Sweden (inside the EU)?


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## preizzo (Aug 13, 2016)

Have a look at the masakage lines. 
Very interesting knives


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## Drosophil (Aug 13, 2016)

@JaVa I was just reading a review on the Shiro Kamo on the Messerforum, the guy also seemed over the moon about it (except for the reactivity).
About the Itinomonn - if it's gonna be on stock, then I'll consider it. People seem to have good opinions about the others as well. Except for the Kashima, I couldn't find a single line about them. I guess they're made for Cleancut only.

@easy13 I don't know of any shop that sells it in Europe, I've only found the aogami versions. There might be one, but I haven't found it.

@bennyprofane Funny you should ask. I tried to find it on their website, but it only says "free shipping in Sweden". Maybe JaVa can tell us.

@preizzo I've read good things about them, but they're a bit over my budget. Unless there's a shop that sells them for less and I haven't found it.

Thank you for your replies. You're very helpful.


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## alterwisser (Aug 13, 2016)

Drosophil said:


> @bennyprofane Funny you should ask. I tried to find it on their website, but it only says "free shipping in Sweden". Maybe JaVa can tell us.
> 
> .



Just shoot them an email, they'll tell you [emoji6]


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## mc2442 (Aug 13, 2016)

Did anyone else's ears perk up at "cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish"? Wouldn't more than one knife make sense here?

I did just skim it...did I miss something?


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## Drosophil (Aug 13, 2016)

mc2442 said:


> Did anyone else's ears perk up at "cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish"? Wouldn't more than one knife make sense here?
> 
> I did just skim it...did I miss something?



I copy pasted that from the questionnaire. The answer is in the line below.


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## Drosophil (Aug 13, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> Just shoot them an email, they'll tell you [emoji6]



I'm gonna do that on Monday.


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## mc2442 (Aug 13, 2016)

Drosophil said:


> I copy pasted that from the questionnaire. The answer is in the line below.



Sorry about that, I read that as your response vs. the question. I need to read with a little more attention apparently.


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## Drosophil (Aug 13, 2016)

mc2442 said:


> Sorry about that, I read that as your response vs. the question. I need to read with a little more attention apparently.



No worries


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## preizzo (Aug 13, 2016)

The mizu line and the yuki line should be on you range price. They are the two bottom line of masakage, but that doesn't mean that they are bad. 
I own one yuki 240 gyuto and one mizu 240 gyuto. 
The yuki it S thinner but the mizu has a better edge retention. 
Both great cutter &#128522; 

I owned a Shiro in b#2 Damascus, nice knife with a nice grind but that was all. 
I am not a fun of the laser knife.! 

The ittimonon it S you best choice, cut like a dream and it s not so reactive comper it to the Shiro (kurouchi version) 

Chippest masakage I have bought are from knifewear. Com 

Cheers matteo &#128516;


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## JaVa (Aug 14, 2016)

The Massakage Yuki looks interesting IMO too.
@matteo, which Itinomonn the StainLess or the Kasumi?

I paid about 20  for the shipment to Finland but I don't know if it's a fixed price or if it varies depending on the country?


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## skewed (Aug 14, 2016)

In my experience with Itinomonn StainLess and v2 is that they are actually fairly similar. The stainLess does patinate a little, is pretty darn easy to sharpen, gets quite sharp and retains it fairly well. The v2 will patinate a little more, sharpens a little easier and gets a touch sharper, holds an edge almost as well as the stainLess.

Both are excellent knives. I like them both. Great value. I like stainless/semi-stainless for shorter knives ie <210.


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## Drosophil (Aug 14, 2016)

@preizzo OK, I'll look into the Masakage prices more, I probably saw their other ranges.

@JaVa Thanks for the info. That sounds like fairly standard "anywhere in the EU" shipping.

Noob question: what's the difference between a laser and a thicker knife? Less wedging but more prone to chipping? Or is it just aesthetic preference?


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## preizzo (Aug 14, 2016)

Laser knife cut better but have bad food realise. (more clean)

Thicker knife prone to have a convex grind that help the food realise more comparing to a laser knife which has a flat grind.


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## Drosophil (Aug 14, 2016)

Aha, I see


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 14, 2016)

Got a shorter version of the Goko, it is great.


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## Drosophil (Aug 14, 2016)

@LifeByA1000Cuts I'll keep that in mind.

@JaVa How's the reactivity on your Migaki? Or is it too early too tell?


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## JaVa (Aug 14, 2016)

It's quite reactive atleast for now. Time will tell if it will settle down after more use and when it develops some patina. If I wipe it down right after use then no problem. The reactivity on My Tanaka B2 is slightly more agressive and never seemed to settle down, but has never been an issue for me.


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## Drosophil (Aug 14, 2016)

I see. The only thing I'm worried about is that the taste might "stick" to food. I remember I used to have a crappy carbon knife years ago and it used to smell awful when cutting onions or apples, but for the life of me I can't remember if it changed their taste. Other than that, since I have no basis of comparison, probably anything mentioned here will seem like a lightsaber to me.


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## JaVa (Aug 14, 2016)

It has some light sent, but much less then the Tanaka did when new. I haven't noticed any taste transfer though. Def nothing to worry about. 

If I would be choosing a new carbon knife and I was buying just one from all of the above mentioned knives, I would go with the Kamo damascus B2. It ticks so many of the right boxes being in the middle of the Migaki and KU. But that's just me and you might enjoy something else more.

The reason I did not go for the Kamo damascus was I already have stuff with similar qualities like damascus etc. I wanted to add a little variety to the mix and was very interested to try the Migaki as it's one of the thinnest lasers around. 

After I got so excited with that I wanted to try something else from the same maker, but didn't want to get another laser and again wanted some more depth to the ''collection'' so the KU was so much different it fitted that spot perfectly. Happy Days! 

...If you'd rather go the SS route, like preizzo said, the Itinomonn StainLess (semistainless) would be hard to beat IMO.


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## Drosophil (Aug 14, 2016)

JaVa said:


> It has some light sent, but much less then the Tanaka did when new. I haven't noticed any taste transfer though. Def nothing to worry about.



That's a relief 



JaVa said:


> If I would be choosing a new carbon knife and I was buying just one from all of the above mentioned knives, I would go with the Kamo damascus B2. It ticks so many of the right boxes being in the middle of the Migaki and KU.



What do you mean by that? I don't know what the differences between those 3 are, except for the different claddings and slightly different thicknesses.

I can see your reasoning when choosing the knives. I'd probably do the same.


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## JaVa (Aug 15, 2016)

That ''Slightly'' different thickness translates to weight and that makes the difference much more significant in the real world than it seems on paper. Weight is always the first thing you'll notice when grabbing a knife. The Kamo Migaki feels so light and thin it's almost ridiculous. The Kamo KU compared to it feels very sturdy even though it's quite light and thin.

The KU profile has a smaller flat spot with gentle curve from about halfway of the blade to the tip. It has a wide bevel grind (a v-grind, the exposed metal on the blade) and it transitions into a flat blade face (kurouchi part) forming an angle (a shoulder). The kurouchi protects the steel (maybe ads some non stick properties) and that V grind pushes the food away when cutting (also adding nonstick properties). But the KU also ads a little drag sliding thru products.

The Migakis profile has a long (maybe 70%) flat spot and only the tip curves up. It has a convex grind but it's shallow. Because it's thin there's not much medal to convex. The convex is also supposed to push away food to not stick to the blade. 

The weight and thickness of the Kamo Damascus would be about the same with the Kamo KU, but the profile and grind of the blade looks to be more inline with the Migaki. The Damascus seems to be a hybrid of the two. It should be a great all round light middleweight gyuto with some of their best features combined into one. Light, thin and strong knife with a good blade profile.

...and all three are very thin behind the edge where it counts.


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## Drosophil (Aug 15, 2016)

Wow, just goes to show what little some numbers on paper can say. Thanks for taking the time to answer, it's very helpful I also and enjoy learning about these things.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 15, 2016)

Big EU mailorders that you might have missed because of the main site language:

http://www.japansemessen.nl/ (Netherlands)
http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de/ (Germany)


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## Drosophil (Aug 15, 2016)

I've seen them, I'm checking them out too.


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## Drosophil (Aug 31, 2016)

Aaaand it's here!

In the end I decided to get the Shiro Kamo Migaki. Like I said in an earlier post, this is my first proper knife, so I have no basis for comparison, but damn, this thing can cut. I've read about people giggling the first time they used a Japanese knife, but I was cackling like a Bond villain: "Today - this onion, tomorrow - the world!" I filled a fairly sizeable wok in a few minutes. It's just ridiculous!

The only bad piece of news is that it came with a really, really tiny chip. First I thought it was a rust spot, but then I noticed it on the other side as well. I had to look several times to see it, though. I suppose it should go away after 2-3 normal sharpening sessions, right?

Anyway, I'd like to thank everyone again for your advice.

Cheers!


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## shownomarci (Aug 31, 2016)

Good choice!
I was gonna say +1 on the Shiro Kamo as well. 
I have the kurouchi version (Eden Kanso Aogami) with the same core steel and must say it takes a killer edge and holds it for quite a while.
Make sure you get a decent stone though.


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## Drosophil (Aug 31, 2016)

I've got a Bester 1000 for now, I'll try and get some others soon enough.


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2016)

Drosophil said:


> Aaaand it's here!
> 
> In the end I decided to get the Shiro Kamo Migaki. Like I said in an earlier post, this is my first proper knife, so I have no basis for comparison, but damn, this thing can cut. I've read about people giggling the first time they used a Japanese knife, but I was cackling like a Bond villain: "Today - this onion, tomorrow - the world!" I filled a fairly sizeable wok in a few minutes. It's just ridiculous!
> 
> ...



Why didn't you send it back?


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## JaVa (Aug 31, 2016)

It's just an amazing and fun knife!!! Good pick up!:doublethumbsup:
...and you are a brave man to get such a thin knife as your first!

I'm absolutely bananas about mine. There's just so many things right about the Shiro Kamo Migaki. I'm very happy to see more of them around. It's just too good of a knife for people not to no about it. 

I think you'll be happy to hear that the reactivity on mine has recently settled down noticeably. It has developed just a very very light patina which seemed to be enough to calm it down. The same happened with the Shiro Kamo KU too.


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## Drosophil (Sep 1, 2016)

Benuser said:


> Why didn't you send it back?



I would've, but I got it last Friday and didn't have the chance to use it until yesterday. It would be hard to believe that it wasn't my fault 

Also, I thought it might be a bit overkill to wait for another one for something that can be easily fixed. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.


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## Drosophil (Sep 1, 2016)

JaVa said:


> It's just an amazing and fun knife!!! Good pick up!:doublethumbsup:
> ...and you are a brave man to get such a thin knife as your first!
> 
> I'm absolutely bananas about mine. There's just so many things right about the Shiro Kamo Migaki. I'm very happy to see more of them around. It's just too good of a knife for people not to no about it.
> ...



Now I understand why you were so excited about it, I'm over the frigging moon too :biggrin:

Mine got that lovely shade of blue after cutting raw and rare meat, but it faded quickly. There's a slight bad smell, like you said (especially with chicken), but no transfer on the food, so I don't really care what it looks like.

Stiction isn't bad either, mostly noticeable with courgettes/zucchinis, whatever you wanna call them. Potatoes and onions stick, but only slightly. Again, not something that bothers me.


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