# Who has the easiest freehand method for a beginner to learn?



## RubbishCook (Mar 19, 2016)

I am just starting sharpening and it seems to me that everyone does it differently which is fine...but I have followed a bunch of different instructors and I am not sure which to put into practice...so far there is no clear winner.

I have watched the JKI and Korin videos as well as ones from Richard Blaine (not well liked on KKF) though I do like his method of find the "correct" angle, and then there is this from ChefSteps where Daniel O'Malley seems to get the entire blade in one stroke:






I also took a class locally where you switch hands for each side. I was better with my left hand amazingly.

At the moment I am struggling with the heel of my knives...in addition holding a steady angle. 

Which videos worked the best for you? Are there others I should look at? I don't mind paying for them if they are good.

Thanks in advance.


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## Cashn (Mar 19, 2016)

I'd say go with what you prefer. Lot of different ways to make a knife sharp. Whatever is easier for you and makes more sense will probably be the way you adapt to best. Heels and tips can be a little temperamental, they just don't see the stone time the middle of the blade does. Maybe slow down a bit and make a couple extra deliberate strokes towards the heel. Some heels can be curved too so unless you angle the blade down just a bit at the very end you can miss it, kind of the opposite of when you lift up a bit for the tip. Steady angle will come with muscle memory imo, I wouldn't worry too much about what the actual angle is either. Just that you try and keep the same one.


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## XooMG (Mar 19, 2016)

I've never really been enthusiastic about any of the videos. This site will push you to Jon Broida, Dave Martell, Rick Theory, and maybe Murray Carter.

In my opinion, being mindful is better than any packaged technique. Think about what kind of edge you need and what kind of blade/stone you've got. Know what you're doing, not just who you're following and whose interpretation you can most easily regurgitate.

For angles, my intuitive response is to not think of angles as numbers, but positions. once you know approximately what angle you need, reset your body and adjust your grip on the knife. Sometimes if you first try to establish a fixed angle, your hands, shoulders, back, etc. will be in a slightly awkward position. Once you know what the angle looks like relative to the stone, think of what motion you can do with your whole arms and upper body to keep the angle consistent, and then adjust your grip to make that possible.

With the heel...I think resolving that depends on what you feel like you're doing wrong. For example, I have the common bad habit of pressing too hard when I get to the heel sometimes, which actually can still yield a very good edge, but an ugly choil photo.


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## ThEoRy (Mar 19, 2016)

This is what I do.

[video=youtube;bMW5vJ4krPE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMW5vJ4krPE[/video]


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## JBroida (Mar 19, 2016)

i'm of the opinion that as long as what you are doing makes logical sense, do whatever works best for you


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## psfred (Mar 19, 2016)

The exact technique is far less important that holding a constant angle and sharpening the whole edge evenly. Some people like to "sweep" through the whole edge at one time, some sharpen sections, some make long strokes, some like short ones better.

You will quickly find what suits you. The only thing that's critical is maintaining the angle you want for the whole time the knife is moving on the stone. Changing the angle constantly will produce a very convex bevel, and that will make the knife cut poorly even if it's sharp.

With some practice you will learn to feel when the bevel is flat on the stone, it's hard to describe but quite noticeable once you do feel it.

Peter


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## Jovidah (Mar 20, 2016)

I wouldn't overfocus on following 'one master'. I always link several different ones of them because there's all kinds of tips and tricks in them and different ways of doing them. You just pick, mix and match from them what suits you merge that into a technique that works for you. Watching several different teachers and 'styles' really helped make things 'click' for me.

I actually used to do that one-big-swipy thingy but I actually stopped doing it, because it tended to round the profile of my heels (so you'd get accordeon cuts). I have to say though it did go really fast for the rough work, but you have to take into account that it tends to overwork the heel (at least for me).

The switchting hands thing...well the main problem with it is that it tends to lengthen (by at least a factor 2) the time it takes for your muscle memory to consistently get the angles right. So there isn't really any technical issue as long as you're still rubbing the knife against the rock at the right angle, but it's simply harder to get consistant at it when you keep switching.

Now as for struggling with the heels. I used to struggle a bit with sharpening the right side of the heels using Jon's technique (because he holds the blade perpendicular instead of at an angle). What actually worked for me is turning the stone at an angle.

Just as an example a movie of someone who does the same: [video=youtube;Duwt8oMZRaA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duwt8oMZRaA[/video]
I know not a lot of people do it but for me turning my stone around occasionally really helps in being able to get a better posture and allow me to keep my knife angled instead of perpendicular (thus reducing the effect of wobble).


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## gic (Mar 20, 2016)

Well, I'm hardly an expert but I have been getting really good results by combining Jon's method with use of the "Bob Kramer" (which is what Daniel O'Malley is using I think) to blend the edge from heel to point..


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## RubbishCook (Mar 20, 2016)

Thank you all for your comments. I would like to try to avoid bad habits and I was hoping that one method would just feel right but I think I just need to spend more time working on the angle first. 

Richard Blaine uses a method to find the "correct" angle where he moves the blade across the stone increasing the angle until the knife bites the stone and then backs off a degree or two. Is that a good way to go about it? The coin method I keep seeing seems a bit arbitrary.


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## ThEoRy (Mar 20, 2016)

Richard Blaine is a hack.


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## RubbishCook (Mar 20, 2016)

I know this forum doesn't like him but is his method for finding an angle any good?


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## daveb (Mar 20, 2016)

It was told to me when I started that a consistent angle is much more important than any absolute angle. To that end sounds like Blaine is trying to find the best angle for a given knife. That part doesn't suck. It's the rest where I'm not a fan.

If you want to learn to cook a steak, find someone that cooks a steak like you like it and ask. Don't go yelping for 20 best (in someone's opinion) steak houses in your area and try and combine them all. 

This forum offers several "best" sharpeners. If you're a flipper, start with Jon. If you're a switcher, start with Vincent. You'll find who's best for you.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Mar 20, 2016)

RubbishCook said:


> I know this forum doesn't like him but is his method for finding an angle any good?



Only if you're trying to replicate the angle that was on the blade. Considering that many OOTB edge angles can be "hit or miss", I can't recommend it. One of the advantages to sharpening your own knives is to fine tune the angles to your preferences rather than blindly following whatever you got originally.


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## spoiledbroth (Mar 20, 2016)

Getting the whole blade in one stroke is good for deburring but that's about it. You are better off picking up both styles (western, Asian) as I think the Asian style is really quite suited to single bevel and wide bevel knives (only have exp with the latter tho). Another thing is the western method is balls for doing "heavy lifting"... If you need to remove a lot of steel good luck with that technique.


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## Jovidah (Mar 20, 2016)

gic said:


> Well, I'm hardly an expert but I have been getting really good results by combining Jon's method with use of the "Bob Kramer" (which is what Daniel O'Malley is using I think) to blend the edge from heel to point..



Incidentally I actually do that too... it somehow feels nice to 'even things out' at the end, and using it when switching sides after every stroke. But using it all the time I really messed up the hells... (but that might entirely be due to me, not the technique), even though it did actually give pretty quick results (sharper than the more Japanese style for me).

In case you're interested. There's a few videos floating around the net from Takamura (just look for them on youtube); those are pretty nice and informative as well. They also show a trick with looking at the water for replicating the angle.


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## shownomarci (Mar 20, 2016)

Jovidah said:


> What actually worked for me is turning the stone at an angle.
> 
> Just as an example a movie of someone who does the same: [video=youtube;Duwt8oMZRaA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duwt8oMZRaA[/video]
> I know not a lot of people do it but for me turning my stone around occasionally really helps in being able to get a better posture and allow me to keep my knife angled instead of perpendicular (thus reducing the effect of wobble).



I do the same thing as well (turn the stone at an angle).
Tend to start the japanese way, then turn the stone and 'blend the sections' by doing long strokes alternating the sides after each stroke (so i don't have to count, just check the edge every now and then  ).

Have you noticed Curtis's slippers in the video? (You can see them, when he works on the 1k stone.) Quite funny.


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## Matus (Mar 21, 2016)

As already suggested - check several different ways and develop your own technique. I have started with Carter videos, then saw the ones from Jon and Maxim. Today I am usually holding the knife in my right hand, but I have just reminded myself that it is a good idea to lear also the ambidextrous method - in partocilar when thinning a knife on stones (I never get the left side as consistent as the fight one when holding the knife in right hand) - even if it means constantly washing/cleaning your hands to keep the stone mud away from the handle.


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## Noodle Soup (Mar 22, 2016)

I've spent enough time with pro chefs and cooking instructors to know 'sharp enough" and "razor sharp" have a lot off different meanings to different knife users. I think Murray Carters' videos are a good place to start though. Murray has a very grounded practical view of the subject.


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## superk17 (Mar 23, 2016)

Videos from JKI made the most sense to me and I found the technique the most useful and applicable to my routine. I am left handed and learn how to be ambidextrous when I sharpen my knives. When I started sharpening I found a small digital gauge with magnetic bottom and actually practiced keeping steady angle before sharpening. Maybe an overkill, and it worked for me.


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## Boynutman (Mar 24, 2016)

When I started out looking for sharpening videos I got confused similar to what you report. I bought 'an edge in the kitchen' and that gave me some confidence and a starting point. Since then I have used Jon's videos to improve myself. And I am now at a point (by reading on the forum) where I understand that there is so much I don't know yet - but that's ok, it's an interesting journey and for now at least I can sharpen my knives with some confidence and consistency.


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## RubbishCook (Mar 26, 2016)

What about thinning? There are almost no demos. I have seen the two that Jon put up but really the lecture just shows what you should be doing to the knife and the demo shows the angle. It would be great if there was somewhere you could see what the knife should look like after a coarse, medium, and fine grit stone. 

I tried thinning my Tojiro DP Gyuto and the angle makes sense but I don't know how to read the thinning on the blade. I used a sharpie and I got it all off...I don't know when to stop. Should the area thinned have a consistent finish...it seems like it should but it's not what I am getting.


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## KimBronnum (Mar 26, 2016)

I mostly found Jon and Maksims videos useful. As mentioned there are many different sharpening videos and just as many different ways to sharpen. Looking back - having watched "everything" about sharpening - and practicing for some years, there are many videos that aren´t suited to learn from. Some have poor form, some show bad habits and some are good. I found Jon and Maksims videos to be the ones that are best to learn from. I think Jon is especially good at explaining many details regarding angles, what to do about the tip or heel of the knife, etc. 
When I was learning sharpening, I watched Jons videos over and over. Then tried to mimic what he did with my own stone and knife - then watch the videos again. Every time I had learned enough from practice to recognise another layer of information from the videos. Apart from this you also have to accept that it takes time to gain sufficient motor skills to be abel to hold a consistent angel. 
- Kim


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## Jovidah (Mar 26, 2016)

RubbishCook said:


> What about thinning? There are almost no demos. I have seen the two that Jon put up but really the lecture just shows what you should be doing to the knife and the demo shows the angle. It would be great if there was somewhere you could see what the knife should look like after a coarse, medium, and fine grit stone.
> 
> I tried thinning my Tojiro DP Gyuto and the angle makes sense but I don't know how to read the thinning on the blade. I used a sharpie and I got it all off...I don't know when to stop. Should the area thinned have a consistent finish...it seems like it should but it's not what I am getting.



I know what you mean; there's hours of footage on sharpening but altogether maybe just 5 minutes on thinning? Even though it's at least as important as sharpening for a knife's performance.
What helps for me to read the thinning is to make sure you either paint the bevel with a sharpie, or have a bright finish on it. That way you can see the contrast with all the thinning that you do with a coarser stone. As you thin the bevel should get smaller and smaller. How far you go up is easy to see. Apart from that I go by choil and just hope it evens out (I try to work the blade evenly and at an even angle).
But I'm with you on the whole 'working in the dark' thing... I don't feel like I have a good grasp on it either, but at least I managed to improve the performance of the knives I thinned.


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## JBroida (Mar 26, 2016)

its just a long process and would be a lot of boring repetition showing very little more than what i already showed... it takes a long time to thin. I do agree that i should have showed what it looks like at each step of the way... i'll try to do something like that when i have some free time. But most people prefer to refinish knives with sandpaper or a belt grinder after thinning, as it never looks pretty (with the exception of wide bevel knives).


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## Dardeau (Mar 26, 2016)

I was just thinking how boring a thinning video would be. Almost as boring was watching someone thin a knife while watching a thinning video.


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## RubbishCook (Mar 26, 2016)

I read that thinning should be done every time you sharpen. I don't need to see a badly neglected knife thinned...that would be tedious but it would be great to see a pro put a well maintained knife through the entire process. It might be boring but it would be educational.


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## Dardeau (Mar 26, 2016)

I stand corrected. Maxim has a fairly short, thorough, and entertaining thinning video that YouTube just suggested to me. Search "thinning Kato". Extensive use of fast forward and the knife having a patina on it so it is very obvious where he is removing steel makes the video very informative. Combine this with Jon's "theory of thinning" video and I think you have a pretty comprehensive thinning primer.


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## RubbishCook (Mar 26, 2016)

Thanks for the suggestion I will give that video a try.


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## Keith Sinclair (Mar 28, 2016)

RubbishCook said:


> I read that thinning should be done every time you sharpen. I don't need to see a badly neglected knife thinned...that would be tedious but it would be great to see a pro put a well maintained knife through the entire process. It might be boring but it would be educational.



Dave Martell's DVD of knife sharpening is another good one. He shows a little thinning behind the edge then raising the spine putting on a higher final bevel. He switches hands. Advantage of that is the spine is always facing you easier to keep steady when first learning. Keeping a steady spine is one of the most important parts of sharpening.

I learned using same hand for both sides. Hand flipping so spine is away from you on flip side. That's how I teach it. Have noticed a beginner mistake is to drop the spine some on flip side, however once I point it out most are able to correct it right away. Dave has many other tips on his DVD set that are very helpful for a beginner.


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## Kingkor (Mar 28, 2016)

Where can you get Dave Martell's dvd?


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## Keith Sinclair (Mar 28, 2016)

Kingkor said:


> Where can you get Dave Martell's dvd?



Just checked do not seem to be produced any more. Kind of a shame a lot of good tips for beginners. I still lend out my copy have always gotten it back. Same with pass around knives that I usually sell. Have held on to Dave's set all these years. The Murry Carter advanced is pretty good if you don't mind seeing him shave with a neck knife.


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## Mandrake (May 4, 2016)

Noob here. Here's what I've tried to learn freehand. I attach one of those small magnetic angle indicators, then try to swipe the blade over the stones at a constant 16 degree angle. It's tough. But it should be educational over time. Good idea or fraught w peril?


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## chinacats (May 4, 2016)

Mandrake said:


> Noob here. Here's what I've tried to learn freehand. I attach one of those small magnetic angle indicators, then try to swipe the blade over the stones at a constant 16 degree angle. It's tough. But it should be educational over time. Good idea or fraught w peril?



I guess if you happen to own a knife that requires 16 degrees on each side then it wouldn't be a horrible thing. That said, I don't own any such knife...and none of mine have the same angle on both sides. I say to take it off, pick an angle and try to hold it...your scratch marks (or marker if you prefer) will show you what you are hitting and go from there.


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## malexthekid (May 4, 2016)

chinacats said:


> I guess if you happen to own a knife that requires 16 degrees on each side then it wouldn't be a horrible thing. That said, I don't own any such knife...and none of mine have the same angle on both sides. I say to take it off, pick an angle and try to hold it...your scratch marks (or marker if you prefer) will show you what you are hitting and go from there.



This!!

A sharpie is the best tools for learning sharpening... as you move on a soft hand and scratch patterns takes over from that.


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## ThEoRy (May 4, 2016)

Mandrake said:


> Noob here. Here's what I've tried to learn freehand. I attach one of those small magnetic angle indicators, then try to swipe the blade over the stones at a constant 16 degree angle. It's tough. But it should be educational over time. Good idea or fraught w peril?



Problem is you may not learn any muscle memory that way. Just try learning without the training wheels and develop your skill.


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## ManofTaste (May 8, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> I was just thinking how boring a thinning video would be. Almost as boring was watching someone thin a knife while watching a thinning video.



Of course, young people today spend time watching YouTube videos of people playing video games. Go figure.


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## ManofTaste (May 8, 2016)

I have found the JKI videos useful, especially for highlighting the variations in technique needed to get the most out of different types of knives (single vs. double bevel, etc.).


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## Chef_ (May 8, 2016)

One answer i can never find is if youre supposed to apply pressure when youre going forward or going back with the blade, or both. I find that when i apply pressure as im pulling the knife back its alot easier to keep the angle


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## jbart65 (May 9, 2016)

Peter Knowlan has some good vids.
[video=youtube;rLE_cqR_qLU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLE_cqR_qLU[/video]

Ryky Tran has a few decent ones for beginners too.


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## Matus (May 9, 2016)

Chef_ said:


> One answer i can never find is if youre supposed to apply pressure when youre going forward or going back with the blade, or both. I find that when i apply pressure as im pulling the knife back its alot easier to keep the angle



I try to keep the pressure constant, but if I am sharpening under large angle (i.e. honesuki) I am putting less pressure when I am moving the blade forward to minimise the risk of cutting into the stone (in particular easy to do with softer stones - personal experience). 

Last but not least I find that less pressure = more precision with the grinding angle, in particular if I have not sharpened for a while. I improved a lot in this regard after I have spent 6 hours on Atona 140 (thinning) in course of less than 2 weeks


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## limpet (May 9, 2016)

As many say, you'll have to find out what works for you. I think the most important thing initially is to manage to create a burr along the complete length of the edge. The heel and tip is usually the hardest part. How you manage to do that is up to you. Myself, I watched Jon's JKI videos and found them very useful. I concentrated on how to hold the blade and on what hand does what. From there, I found my own way when developing muscle memory on how it should feel when sharpening.

Some other things I found useful:


Didn't use any angle indicators clip-ons. They were just in the way for me to find the angle.
Purchased some cheap shirogami blades to practice sharpening on. It was on them I created my first burr. Also, I could practice often enough to develop a muscle memory.
Used the sharpie trick to see how much I wobbled.
Replaced my cheap 1000 grit stone with a JNS 800 which was much faster with great feedback. IMO, as a beginner, if you have a stone that is too slow, you will just exhaust yourself. You want quick feedback on what you're doing. Of course, using practice knives that you can experiment on will help you find your own style.
Got me an Atoma 140 to flatten my sharpening stones. A sharpening stone that isn't flat is hard to learn to sharpen on.
That was pretty much it for me when learning. Now I'm at the second stage where I get overly confident and make new kinds of stupid mistakes... :wink:


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## DanHumphrey (May 10, 2016)

Hmm. Would the JKI 1k diamond plate be fast enough to do thinning with? It won't dish or create slurry, certainly.


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## Pensacola Tiger (May 10, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> Hmm. Would the JKI 1k diamond plate be fast enough to do thinning with? It won't dish or create slurry, certainly.



Not really, and you'd put excessive wear on it. 

I use an Atoma 140 or 400 for thinning, and then take out the scratches with an Atoma 1200 or an equivalent grit stone.


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## bennyprofane (Jul 27, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> I use an Atoma 140 or 400 for thinning, and then take out the scratches with an Atoma 1200 or an equivalent grit stone.



I though you use the King Deluxe 300 for thinning?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 27, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> I though you use the King Deluxe 300 for thinning?



It depends on the knife, and my mood.


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## bennyprofane (Jul 27, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> It depends on the knife, and my mood.



Since I have both, the Atoma and the King, may I ask for which steel you recommend which?


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 28, 2016)

If the original poster is still around like to know how you are doing with your sharpening? 

Noticed that you have watched both JKI sharpening & Korin. Did one on one first time summer school this year so teaching culinary students year round now.

My technique is very similar to Jon's at JKI His first vid covers knife in relation to the stone. Doing 90% when the handle is in the way and at an angle to the stone rest of sharpening, flip side handle not on the way angle all the way. This technique insures correct heel sharpening. This is important you do not want high heels on your knives it is a common mistake with sloppy sharpening.

The Korin vids show lifting the knife off the stone each stroke. This is a beginners technique instead of finger pad pressure only on trailing strokes. This is the only beginners tech I use, found changing pad pressure along with steady spine & the rest was too much at once. I teach a little thinning behind the edge say 3-5% off the stone no need for burr on thinning bevel though sometimes you get one anyway. The final bevel(also called micro) 15-20% you should get an even burr on your first progression. Lifting the knife off the stone esp. on the 3-5% bevel keeps the side of the blade from getting scratched up, even the mud can scuff up a fancy Damascus blade. % is not important just eyeball the bevels that's why it is freehand.

Deburr with a light measured lateral stroke on the stone this can take a little while to master, helps to have good steel. Any residual burr newsprint works well. Cardboard, felt many ways to remove burr. Just remember it is a light touch & less is best.

Tip sharpening, some knives have flat edge profiles with very little sweep at the tip. Others have a lot of sweep you have to adjust your tip sharpening to the type of knife. Use a pretty straight forward tip tech. most important is steady spine you want an even bevel at your tip too.

Found this works for students most can get an even burr on their final bevel first try. Then less is best on burr removal don't want to mess up that nice bevel you cut. So between JKI & Korin you can easy with practice make a dull knife sharp:thumbsup:


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