# American football



## Keith Sinclair (Oct 14, 2020)

Just hope that this season makes it all the way through with Covid. The Titans with most cases almost no practice handled the Bills. 6 times to red zone 6 touchdowns. # 1 team in defensive turnovers. Also most underated team in football.

My Hawks still undefeated lucky to be so. They deff. need some elite pass rushers.


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## Byphy (Oct 14, 2020)

It's been brutal on my Niners.


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## WildBoar (Oct 14, 2020)

I am enjoying the results for the Washington Football Team  (sorry Panda)


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## Twigg (Oct 14, 2020)

Steelers will be tough for any team to get past this year, *IF* they get their defense's act together.


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## BillHanna (Oct 14, 2020)

As a traumatized Raiders fan, I’m eagerly awaiting the five game losing streak, just to get it over with.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 14, 2020)

Raiders get no respect were 11 point underdogs to Chiefs this week & beat them.

Bills were favored to beat Titans who won 42-16 a few upsets.


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## CiderBear (Oct 14, 2020)

I'm thankful for the NFL. I was primarily a college fan before, but this year I had no interest in college ball because neither my alma matter nor my husband's are playing. Now that our seasons are restarting next weekend, I hope things will go smoothly. Seeing college games get postponed/ rescheduled/ canceled every weekend doesn't instill much confidence though.


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## CiderBear (Oct 18, 2020)

6 days until the Big 10 comes back!!!


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## Twigg (Oct 18, 2020)

Go Penn State!


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## Twigg (Oct 18, 2020)

The Steelers kicked the sh!t out of the Browns today. Always wonderful to see!!!


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## CiderBear (Oct 19, 2020)

Both my Packers and Rams lost so I'm not having a great Sunday


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## TSF415 (Oct 19, 2020)

CiderBear said:


> Both my Packers and Rams lost so I'm not having a great Sunday



Goff wasn't looking too good. I thought for sure he was going to torch our secondary. A few big plays but other than that not much there.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 19, 2020)

Steelers are really looking good. They stopped that run game of Browns, then keyed off on BM with effective pass rush & secondary coverage. Bad day for the Browns.

Titans don't have that dominate defense of Steelers. They are good at take away turnovers, but don't have the pass rush.

Those two undefeated teams meet next week.

You know Brady is happy to have that Tampa Bay defense. He doesn't have to throw 200-300 yards a game to win.


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## panda (Oct 19, 2020)

WildBoar said:


> I am enjoying the results for the Washington Football Team  (sorry Panda)


not my team any more. I root for raiders who have always been the afc team i liked.


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## birdsfan (Oct 19, 2020)

panda said:


> not my team any more. I root for raiders who have always been the afc team i liked.


 Don't jump off so quickly panda.....Washington still may win the NFC Least. We all suck!


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## panda (Oct 19, 2020)

the name change was so pointless


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## Byphy (Oct 19, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> Don't jump off so quickly panda.....Washington still may win the NFC Least. We all suck!


I cant believe a 4 win team is about to host a playoff game


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## birdsfan (Oct 19, 2020)

Byphy said:


> I cant believe a 4 win team is about to host a playoff game




Oh it is just awful. I am about to start looking for a 20# paper bag to cut eye holes out of


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## McMan (Oct 19, 2020)

birdsfan said:


> Oh it is just awful. I am about to start looking for a 20# paper bag to cut eye holes out of


Aren't those handed down through the generations in Philly?


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## birdsfan (Oct 19, 2020)

McMan said:


> Aren't those handed down through the generations in Philly?
> .




Nawwwww.....we threw our family bags out during the Andy Reid era. Figured we'd never need them again.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 19, 2020)

Underdog mask we're popular when they beat Patriots in Superbowl.


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## BillHanna (Oct 19, 2020)

Andy Dalton.

buh-dum-TISS


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## Twigg (Oct 25, 2020)

Steelers vs Titans is just starting. Should be a good game!


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## Twigg (Oct 25, 2020)

Steelers dominated the first half, were impotent during the second half, won by luck. Sad, but a win is a win.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 25, 2020)

Titans have been winning games in second half they came up short against Steelers. 

Next week Steelers game with Ravens should be good too.


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## BillHanna (Oct 25, 2020)

45-20

Game 1 of the five game losing streak.

Go Raiders


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## mc2442 (Oct 25, 2020)

This year has just been brutal for injuries. Covid related measures affecting training camp and no pre-season games I think are a good part of the reason.

Cowboys fan here.....it has just been brutal. Clusters in several teams amplify the impact. Hopefully Covid cases remain minimal and don't shape the end of the season and playoffs.


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## panda (Oct 26, 2020)




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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 26, 2020)

How can Raiders beat the Chiefs & then get whipped by Tampa Bay? 

It is hard to be a Cowboys fan these days that team is disfunctional they won't even win worst division in football.

Not like NFC west. Every team has winning record. In West coast battle of the birds, the cardinals beat my Seahawks. They deserved the win in overtime. Seahawks have been winning in final period quite their luck ran out.
I hope they beef up that defence like when they won SB.

Just how good is Tampa Bay? Plenty season left I hope.


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## BillHanna (Oct 26, 2020)

Raiders gonna Raider. That OLine was horrendous. Carr was dropping back for his life in the second half.


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## CiderBear (Oct 27, 2020)

Justin Herbert has looked so good. I for once am very glad he's out of the Pac 12 North


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## Twigg (Oct 27, 2020)

CiderBear said:


> Justin Herbert has looked so good. I for once am very glad he's out of the Pac 12 North


I agree, he is doing great! Oregon wasted his talent pursuing the run.


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## CiderBear (Oct 27, 2020)

Twigg said:


> I agree, he is doing great! Oregon wasted his talent pursuing the run.


Still murders us every year!


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## alterwisser (Oct 27, 2020)

Go Jets! I mean: Go Giants .... oh No!


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## panda (Oct 27, 2020)

how in the world does adam gase still have a job


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## juice (Oct 27, 2020)

panda said:


> how in the world does adam gase still have a job


I've read this somewhere before...

Anyway, the answer is COVID. HTH


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## rmrf (Nov 2, 2020)

Byphy said:


> It's been brutal on my Niners.



Kittle and likely Jimmy G are out for the season. Brutal.


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## Twigg (Nov 2, 2020)

John Harbaugh is still bitching about the last play of the Steelers Ravens game yesterday.


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## Byphy (Nov 2, 2020)

rmrf said:


> Kittle and likely Jimmy G are out for the season. Brutal.


I kept telling my friends you can’t blow SB’s, no telling when we’ll get that shot again... A season later and we’re a shell of what we were last season. Just traded Kwon too.


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## juice (Nov 2, 2020)

Twigg said:


> John Harbaugh is still bitching about the last play of the Steelers Ravens game yesterday.


World-class whiner, that one.


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## BillHanna (Nov 8, 2020)

Sorry not sorry, Chargers.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 13, 2020)

The Chargers keep losing by less than a touchdown every week.

So many upsets At least the Saints look good. Hawks can't win until they beef up their defense. Every time a team gets hyped they lay an egg. The picks on TV have been awful.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 13, 2020)

Steelers only undefeated team left. The lowly Cowboys almost beat them last week.

Everyone was jumping on Tampa Bay after losing to Saints first game by 11 points they had a string of victories just losing one other game by 1 point.
Then the lowly Giants almost beat them last week. Everyone still on Tampa this week to beat Saints. They laid an egg lucky to score 3 points total.


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## Twigg (Nov 16, 2020)

Steelers played well yesterday!


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## Byphy (Nov 16, 2020)

The way things are looking right now, I wouldn’t wanna see Az or Mia in the playoffs.. 

Murray has to be the fav to win MVP this season


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 18, 2020)

Now pint sized QB doing well. Doug Flutie must be smiling. Russell Wilson too bad he doesn't have SB team around him defense wins championships.


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## Twigg (Nov 22, 2020)

Steelers pulled off #10 today. Really looking forward to Thursday's game against the Ravens!!!


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## labor of love (Nov 22, 2020)

Saints gonna get that ring this year.


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## Byphy (Nov 22, 2020)

The 3-7 Cowboys are hot right now. If they can make it out of a competitive division.. watch out.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 22, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Steelers pulled off #10 today. Really looking forward to Thursday's game against the Ravens!!!



Titans beat Ravens today with a good dose of Henry. Just like playoffs last year. Going undefeated is really hard to do just ask Patriots against Giants. 

Brees on sideline with cracked ribs
I think it's his last year, would like to see Saints make it through the playoffs this year.


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## sododgy (Nov 23, 2020)

Colts finally start getting it together during a season I have no interest in watching, go figure. I'll never cheer for Rivers, and won't make any effort to watch the Colts until he's gone (but happened to catch today's win).


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## labor of love (Nov 23, 2020)

sododgy said:


> Colts finally start getting it together during a season I have no interest in watching, go figure. I'll never cheer for Rivers, and won't make any effort to watch the Colts until he's gone (but happened to catch today's win).


Pretty happy they beat the packers, who are looking to be every bit as overrated as they were last year.


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## BillHanna (Nov 23, 2020)

When I went to bed last night, the Raiders had swept the Chiefs. 
7-3.
31-28. 
A bit less than 2min left.
Whoops.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 24, 2020)

The Raiders are better than last year they beat them once & almost this time. Who ever had the ball last. The Steelers are undefeated, but will not play either Raiders or Chiefs in regular season.

They might stay undefeated in regular season Colts & Buffalo only teams might have chance.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 24, 2020)

Grandpa's can't beat teams with good defences.


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## sododgy (Nov 25, 2020)

labor of love said:


> Pretty happy they beat the packers, who are looking to be every bit as overrated as they were last year.



This was the first game I watched. 

I know this is incredibly petty, but as an Indianapolis native and life long Colts fan, it's incredibly weird to be stoked on plays and wins, while also being stoked when my QB takes a hit. It feels like having a talented Jeff George, and it's super weird to have a talented player I want to watch get smashed.


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## labor of love (Nov 25, 2020)

sododgy said:


> This was the first game I watched.
> 
> I know this is incredibly petty, but as an Indianapolis native and life long Colts fan, it's incredibly weird to be stoked on plays and wins, while also being stoked when my QB takes a hit. It feels like having a talented Jeff George, and it's super weird to have a talented player I want to watch get smashed.


Saints colts super bowl rematch?


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## BillHanna (Nov 29, 2020)

Raiders stay Raidering. 7-9, and the strength of schedule will make them the “best” 7-9, so the pick will be 15-18.


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## labor of love (Nov 29, 2020)

BillHanna said:


> Raiders stay Raidering. 7-9, and the strength of schedule will make them the “best” 7-9, so the pick will be 15-18.


Who’s the back up? Lol


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## BillHanna (Nov 29, 2020)

Mariota


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## labor of love (Nov 29, 2020)

BillHanna said:


> Mariota


Oh? That might be exciting! Players are always rising and falling.


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## labor of love (Nov 29, 2020)

Oakland beat the saints and KC this season. Not sure what happened today, but I wouldn’t give up hope. Gruden is the best thing that’s happened to the francise since....Marcus Allen? Maybe?


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## BillHanna (Nov 29, 2020)

It’s a “playing to the level of competition” type year.


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## Byphy (Nov 29, 2020)

9ers been decimated w injuries all season but that win in LA felt good


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 2, 2020)

Can't figure Raiders beat good teams then look bad against lesser competition. Maybe just know their rival Chefs well. 

Glad San Francisco won, put Seahawks first in division at least for now.


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## labor of love (Dec 2, 2020)

AFC is just so crazy dominant this year.


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## Twigg (Dec 3, 2020)

Glad the Steelers won again, but damn, that was an ugly game.


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## Ericfg (Dec 3, 2020)

Twigg said:


> Glad the Steelers won again, but damn, that was an ugly game.


And very costly. Bud Dupree out for the year.


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## BillHanna (Dec 7, 2020)

Mercury Morris is snorting lines off hooker’s asses right now.


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## panda (Dec 7, 2020)

BillHanna said:


> Mercury Morris is snorting lines off hooker’s asses right now.


LT is right there with him


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## Byphy (Dec 7, 2020)

Another tough loss for 9ers.. Josh Allen is damn good. Controlled the game and made it look too easy.

Also as a longtime 9er fan, can’t help but feel joy for Alex Smith right now.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 8, 2020)

panda said:


> LT is right there with him


I liked the Giants with Eli esp. couple times they beat the Patriots. Now they beat my Seahawks. I don't know who will be on SB this year even if we get there with covid cases rising.


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## Wdestate (Dec 8, 2020)

Keith Sinclair said:


> I liked the Giants with Eli esp. couple times they beat the Patriots. Now they beat my Seahawks. I don't know who will be on SB this year even if we get there with covid cases rising.


 Its the NFL they dont care about covid there will be a superbowl no matter what


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## panda (Dec 9, 2020)

Keith Sinclair said:


> I liked the Giants with Eli esp. couple times they beat the Patriots. Now they beat my Seahawks. I don't know who will be on SB this year even if we get there with covid cases rising.


the redskins are gonna win the nfc east and make a miraculous superbowl run!


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 9, 2020)

panda said:


> the redskins are gonna win the nfc east and make a miraculous superbowl run!





Not the Skins anymore politically incorrect 
It's a long shot. But as said can't help but feel good for Alex Smith


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## BillHanna (Dec 14, 2020)

BillHanna said:


> As a traumatized Raiders fan, I’m eagerly awaiting the five game losing streak, just to get it over with.


well. well. welllllll. Let’s see what Thursday brings.


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## childermass (Dec 16, 2020)

BillHanna said:


> well. well. welllllll. Let’s see what Thursday brings.


Not possible anymore, they spoiled it when they beat the Jets


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 18, 2020)

Defense secondary was awful 29th in the league. Was good to see Mariota play well considering long time not in the action.

Looks like it's no playoffs for the Raiders. Colts playing well see how they do in playoffs.


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## McMan (Dec 25, 2020)

Kamara just had a 6 TD game?!?!
Reason to watch this game later.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 26, 2020)

Fantasy player deluxe  

He could have had 7. 

When Saints won their SB they had a good running game.


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## sododgy (Jan 4, 2021)

Jonathon Taylor coming out for 253 yards like a man possessed. 

Not super stoked on heading into Buffalo to start the playoffs, but what the hell, we managed to sneak in.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 4, 2021)

Colts playing well at end of season. Can't wait for the wildcard weekend. 

Making garlic vinegar chicken wings, potato salad & Kona cliff diver ipa brew.


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## labor of love (Jan 4, 2021)

Rooting so hard for Buffalo. Also, trying to figure out who to root for in the NFC if the saints get knocked out-although fun fact: Brees, Michael Thomas and Alvin Kamara have only been on the field at the same time for 10 quarters this whole season yet they still went 12-4, so they hopefully should be able to kick the offense up a notch in the post season when they reunite.


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## alterwisser (Jan 4, 2021)

Football?

How about Steph Curry scoring 62pts???


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 10, 2021)

Seahawks one & done. Now rooting for the Saints.


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## labor of love (Jan 10, 2021)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Seahawks one & done. Now rooting for the Saints.


Rams looking quite good. I’d rather the saints not play them.


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## sododgy (Jan 10, 2021)

Whelp, I can't really be upset by getting put out by the Bills in Buffalo, this year especially. 

Bills Mafia, y'all hiring for seasonal help?


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## labor of love (Jan 10, 2021)

sododgy said:


> Whelp, I can't really be upset by getting put out by the Bills in Buffalo, this year especially.
> 
> Bills Mafia, y'all hiring for seasonal help?


I think Rivers is coming back for another year. He looked great today.


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## sododgy (Jan 10, 2021)

labor of love said:


> I think Rivers is coming back for another year. He looked great today.



Yeah, I wouldn't be nearly as upset about it as I was when he initially signed on. I'm still not a fan of the guy, but there's no denying that he was a great addition to the team this year.


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## McMan (Jan 10, 2021)

labor of love said:


> I think Rivers is coming back for another year. He looked great today.


Speaking of (not) coming back for another year...








Saints QB Drew Brees likely to retire after postseason run


With the Saints kicking off their postseason Sunday afternoon against the Bears, NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport reported on NFL GameDay Morning that Drew Brees is likely to retire after the season.




www.nfl.com


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## Byphy (Jan 10, 2021)

McMan said:


> Speaking of (not) coming back for another year...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a career if so


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 10, 2021)

Looks like NFC playoffs will have three garrens 
Hall of fame old guys Brees, Brady, & Rogers.


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## Byphy (Jan 11, 2021)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Looks like NFC playoffs will have three garrens
> Hall of fame old guys Brees, Brady, & Rogers.


This generation's Montana, Marino & Elway


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## labor of love (Jan 11, 2021)

Brees vs Brady next week. Gonna be rough. Saints are done with Brees after this season for sure.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 11, 2021)

Maybe because always liked Brees even when Chargers let him go because of injury. 

Think he stayed this year for last chance for SB 
win. Now they have the team that can go all the way. 

TB got their okole kicked twice already this year. 

Maybe wishful thinking, but think they are better than TB & GB


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 11, 2021)

Of coarse Rams play Green Bay. Their defense shut down the Hawks. But feel Saints are better team.


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## labor of love (Jan 11, 2021)

Michael Thomas, Kamara and Brees have only been on the field together for 10 quarters this season, yet 8 of those were against Tampa. So Tampa has already seen the saints at their best but the saints haven’t seen Tampa at their best. Brady was throwing darts in the Washington game.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 11, 2021)

Gotta have faith Craig  

Too many times Saints fall short in playoffs 
This is their year. Look what Browns did to Steelers.


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## DavidPF (Jan 12, 2021)

I haven't been paying _any_ attention to sports for a year or more. Just from reading this thread, it sounds like this entire NFL season in the history books is going to have a big asterisk beside it, with the note "We might as well have stayed home after all". (Probably most other sports too, just that football was what was here)


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## AT5760 (Jan 12, 2021)

I'm torn. As a Michigan fan, I'd love to see TB win one after the Pats decided to move on from him. But Brees is a complete class act and seeing him win another Super Bowl would be a great end to his career.


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## mack (Jan 12, 2021)

Though I hope that the Packers win this year's super bowl, I guess it's ending like last year - the Chiefs will get it.

Mack.


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## DavidPF (Jan 12, 2021)

BillHanna said:


> It’s a “playing to the level of competition” type year.


Isn't every year that? Don't we just notice the fact now because the level went noticeably down, instead of staying fairly comparable to the previous few years like it usually would?


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## BillHanna (Jan 12, 2021)

there's the occasional Truly Bad year.


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## DavidPF (Jan 12, 2021)

BillHanna said:


> there's the occasional Truly Bad year.


Must be to do with sunspots or something


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## DavidPF (Jan 12, 2021)

WildBoar said:


> the Washington Football Team


I'm glad they changed the name, the old name was always a stupid idea and the change is better late than never.

Is the current name an intentional blank place-holder until somebody thinks of something? Or is this it?


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## BillHanna (Jan 12, 2021)

I agree. I would not appreciate the Detroit Darkies or Carolina Coons, so why _not _change it.


Placeholder, so they can have something good instead of good enough. Probably Snyder's best decision ever.


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## DavidPF (Jan 12, 2021)

BillHanna said:


> Placeholder, so they can have something good instead of good enough. Probably Snyder's best decision ever.


While waiting, they could informally shorten it to "Wash Foot".


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## sododgy (Jan 19, 2021)

BillHanna said:


> I agree. I would not appreciate the Detroit Darkies or Carolina Coons, so why _not _change it.
> 
> 
> Placeholder, so they can have something good instead of good enough. Probably Snyder's best decision ever.



That makes sense. I didn't even know about the change until the first game I saw, and wondered if it was a spiteful decision after giving in to pressure. Sort of a "oh you didn't like that, well get a load of this" sort of a thing.


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## labor of love (Jan 19, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Michael Thomas, Kamara and Brees have only been on the field together for 10 quarters this season, yet 8 of those were against Tampa. So Tampa has already seen the saints at their best but the saints haven’t seen Tampa at their best. Brady was throwing darts in the Washington game.


Well I’m on the Brady bandwagon now. Can’t wait to see what happens against Green Bay.


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## McMan (Jan 19, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Well I’m on the Brady bandwagon now. Can’t wait to see what happens against Green Bay.


What's crazy is that Rodgers is basically a lock at MVP this year--but Brady has more yards so far (4633 to 4299), more completions (401 to 372), but 8 fewer TDs (40 to 48). Brady's cranking up the heat the past few games. If they can figure out what to do with Davante and Tonyan, maybe it'll be a game. Or Jones just runs roughshod and it won't be. Either way, great match up...


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## labor of love (Jan 19, 2021)

Yeah that Tampa backfield is scary.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 19, 2021)

☹


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## labor of love (Jan 19, 2021)

Keith Sinclair said:


> ☹


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 19, 2021)

labor of love said:


> View attachment 110669


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## sododgy (Jan 20, 2021)

Not a bad way for Rivers to hang it up. Now to see who takes the helm next year...


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## panda (Jan 24, 2021)

sooo, I am now contemplating driving over to Tampa for the superbowl since the home team is hosting it, whole city gonna be lit!!!


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## AT5760 (Jan 24, 2021)

Take some pictures. I’m happy to see TB make the Super Bowl without the grumpy lobster boat captain.


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## TSF415 (Jan 24, 2021)

That field goal was one of the dumbest calls I've ever seen.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 24, 2021)

I couldn't believe they went for the field goal 

Yes if you go Panda take pictures. Wonder if Dave will go though says he doesn't care. First time winner of conference will host Superbowl.

If you told me at begining of season this would be the case would not have believed it.

You know Brady loves that TB defense.


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## panda (Jan 24, 2021)

TSF415 said:


> That field goal was one of the dumbest calls I've ever seen.


I was like 'whyyyyy tf!!??'


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 24, 2021)

Nope dumbest was Seahawks Patriots SB.

Do they allow tailgates or serve Cuban sandwich at Tampa Bay?


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## panda (Jan 24, 2021)

I actually know someone who used to serve paella out of a truck at tampa stadium.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 3, 2021)

Anybody want to venture as to who will win SB.
Chefs are giving 3.5 but that doesn't mean anything. Vegas is wrong all the time. 

In 2003 Oakland was giving Tampa Bay 6 points won a lot on that game TB had best defense in NFL that year. Oakland had Jerry Rice. TB 48 - Oakland 21. 

Defence saved Brady in Green Bay. This not a easy game to pick. Maybe who ever has ball last.

I'm going with Tampa again because their defense playing well & Brady will have some great receivers even if Gronk just blocks the whole game.


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## McMan (Feb 3, 2021)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Anybody want to venture as to who will win SB.
> Chefs are giving 3.5 but that doesn't mean anything. Vegas is wrong all the time.
> 
> In 2003 Oakland was giving Tampa Bay 6 points won a lot on that game TB had best defense in NFL that year. Oakland had Jerry Rice. TB 48 - Oakland 21.
> ...


Truly looking forward to watching this game.


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## labor of love (Feb 3, 2021)

I don’t see mahommes torching that Tampa defense, but also don’t see Brady lighting up the scoreboard either. Tampa put up 30 on the saints because of 4 turnovers. Someone will win 24-21. Your guess is as good as mine.
....Or does Brady pulls off another 28-3 comeback or Mahommes pulls off another 24-0 comeback (remember that Texans game?) 
It’s gonna be a fun game.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 3, 2021)

If just QB in 2021 take Mahomes to me he is the best. Only 3 full seasons, most valuable player first, super bowl win MVP second, & making it to another SB third.

I never thought Buc's would make it to SB this year, they came up the hard way wildcard route.
Defense starters back. Great linebackers, secondary. Jason Pierre Paul he strip sacked Brady in Giants second SB win over Patriots. He gave Rogers a rough time. 
He looks very focusd only second time to SB in 10 years. You know Brady loves having him on his side now. 

Two excellent black coaches that will win or lose this contest. Todd Bowles TB defense 
Eric Bieniemy offense Chiefs.

Both teams major talent, haven't been excited about a SB in a while. In a covid year without my favorite teams Hawks & Saints in it.


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## panda (Feb 3, 2021)

tampa leads in the 4th by 2 scores, Mahommes cuts it down to 1 score, gets ball back but tampa defense comes up with the stop. Brady then ices it with a 2nd down play action chain moving throw to AB.

Keith you can't root for 2 NFC teams, ones gotta be AFC lol


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## big_adventure (Feb 3, 2021)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Anybody want to venture as to who will win SB.
> Chefs are giving 3.5 but that doesn't mean anything. Vegas is wrong all the time.
> 
> In 2003 Oakland was giving Tampa Bay 6 points won a lot on that game TB had best defense in NFL that year. Oakland had Jerry Rice. TB 48 - Oakland 21.
> ...



If I were forced to bet 10 grand on this game, with the 3.5 line, I would take KC -3.5 10 times out of 10. That line is small because the public (for whom the line is set) believes things like "Brady will win this because magic something something."

Granted, a 3 point line means the favored team wins outright _maybe_ 60% of the time, so it's still nothing like a sure thing.

My feeling is KC goes up big then lets the other team come back, finally winning by 10 or so. As a Dolphins fan (Raised in South Florida), I just want Brady to throw 4 pick-sixes.


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## MoabDave (Feb 3, 2021)

Mahomes and his dangerous crew are the smart money for sure.
Tyreek Hill, Kelce, and the rest. 'The rest' being guys who would be outstanding on any other team.

In a way I'm glad it's not Green Bay, always hard to see a team I really like get smeared in the super bowl.
Chiefs better keep the pedal to metal because one thing I'll say about the hated Tom Brady, he does not quit.


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## big_adventure (Feb 3, 2021)

MoabDave said:


> Chiefs better keep the pedal to metal because one thing I'll say about the hated Tom Brady, he does not quit.



I will have to swear off American sports "journalism" for a year or so if Brady and the Bucs win the SB. There is no freaking way I will be able to survive it.

I will become an ESPN Outsider - whatever is the furthest from "Insider."


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## BillHanna (Feb 3, 2021)

Chiefs 16 Bucs 13

With ten seconds left, Breeland forces a Brady fumble that Wilson recovers. No review. Mahomes kneels for the win, while the broadcast shows tuck rule should’ve been applied.

Brady loses

Chiefs asterisk

Raiders vengeance


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Feb 3, 2021)

Heck was a 49's fan in Montana days. Always liked the Hawks was happy when they finally won SB. 

Next year lost to Patriots my least favorite SB

When goofy Eli beat Patriots first SB screwed up their perfect season favorite SB of all time.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Feb 3, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I will have to swear off American sports "journalism" for a year or so if Brady and the Bucs win the SB. There is no freaking way I will be able to survive it.
> 
> I will become an ESPN Outsider - whatever is the furthest from "Insider."



You can always watch the Tour de France. I'll be glad when world surfing tour gets going again 
The Brazilians are dominating these days, at least Carissa Moore from Hawaii won the women's word tour last year.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 4, 2021)

Keith Sinclair said:


> You can always watch the Tour de France. I'll be glad when world surfing tour gets going again
> The Brazilians are dominating these days, at least Carissa Moore from Hawaii won the women's word tour last year.



Brazilian domination feels so strange: I remember (I'm sure you do too, even more clearly) when they'd do great in small events but basically wouldn't show up for heavy waves. Of course, we already had that with Slater - the kid from Florida did pretty well for himself.

Carissa shredding is no surprise of course: 4 time champs don't grow on trees.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Feb 4, 2021)

Everyone talks about Brady & Jordan being the goats. Kelly Slater 14 world championships. 

He was out there with Koa Rothman & John John Florence coupe weeks surfing huge outer reef breaks at 48 yrs. old.

To win world surfing championships not just cutbacks, lip floaters, 360's, you have to be able to surf some heavy waves across the planet. 
Pipeline Hawaii & Teahupo'o Tahiti fast waves big barrels over shallow reef. No tricks just make the wave as deep as possible in the tube and hope you make it out. Kelly can still bring it.

Yeh the Brazilians found could not win championships without serious time at Pipeline. Local surfers coaching them last Brazil world champ helped by locals to get good at Pipe.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 4, 2021)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Everyone talks about Brady & Jordan being the goats. Kelly Slater 14 world championships.
> 
> He was out there with Koa Rothman & John John Florence coupe weeks surfing huge outer reef breaks at 48 yrs. old.
> 
> ...



Kelly's a monster. He's won the Eddie, 7 time Pipe Masters champ, multiple Triple Crowns, dominates at Chops, and he practically invented the aerial and half of the other small-wave trickery on the pro tour. I'm pretty sure he was both the youngest and (definitely) the oldest champ ever. Only a fool would argue against his GOAT status. The only domination I can think of that is close is Sébastien Loeb in WRC driving.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 7, 2021)

LMAO total domination. Respect the GOAT


----------



## panda (Feb 7, 2021)

lopsided game


----------



## mack (Feb 7, 2021)

Oh my... Didn't expect that. I could have played in that chief's O-line.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Feb 7, 2021)

Brady's best play was going to a team that was loaded on both sides. 

I liked seeing many players on Buc's team get a SB win. Some have played for years finally got it. The Tongan Vita Vea made a difference in the middle. Recovered from injury to play in SB.


----------



## panda (Feb 7, 2021)

best part of the game was the rookie safety mocking cheetah and the coach not even be mad about the unsportsmanlike penalty


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Feb 8, 2021)

Todd Bowles called perfect defense. He loves to blitz but knew not the way to play Mahomes.

He left two guys deep to aid coverage of Hill & whoever else. That leaves less pass & run stuffers but didn't matter TB lines dominated.

To his credit Brady deferred to players & coaches he left New England because he didn't have team around him.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 8, 2021)

The refs were total garbage (a couple of those def holding, the PI on M&thieu, the offsides on the field goal) but, given how horrible KC played, it probably wouldn't have made any difference. Congrats to TB and, yes, TB12, who, my personal dislike aside, is and always has been a brilliant player. They played a perfect defensive game and never let Mahomes get into the swing.


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 8, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> If I were forced to bet 10 grand on this game, with the 3.5 line, I would take KC -3.5 10 times out of 10. That line is small because the public (for whom the line is set) believes things like "Brady will win this because magic something something."
> 
> Granted, a 3 point line means the favored team wins outright _maybe_ 60% of the time, so it's still nothing like a sure thing.
> 
> My feeling is KC goes up big then lets the other team come back, finally winning by 10 or so. As a Dolphins fan (Raised in South Florida), I just want Brady to throw 4 pick-sixes.


 
I hope you didn’t bet ...


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 8, 2021)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Everyone talks about Brady & Jordan being the goats. Kelly Slater 14 world championships.
> 
> He was out there with Koa Rothman & John John Florence coupe weeks surfing huge outer reef breaks at 48 yrs. old.
> 
> ...



Bill Russell: 11 championships, won a ship in 11 of his 13 years in the league including 8 in a row and two as a player-Coach.


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 8, 2021)

mack said:


> Oh my... Didn't expect that. I could have played in that chief's O-line.



I explained to my son what the offensive lines job is by showing him highlights of the game and saying “the exact opposite of what the Chiefs O-Line did”


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 8, 2021)

alterwisser said:


> I hope you didn’t bet ...



Oh no, I stopped doing things like that a long time ago. Too many factors out of my control.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 8, 2021)

alterwisser said:


> Bill Russell: 11 championships, won a ship in 11 of his 13 years in the league including 8 in a row and two as a player-Coach.



In an 8 team, barely integrated league with no free agency where the best teams could effectively just horde the best players - and the C's were the best at it.

Don't get me wrong, Russell was a god and I'm not taking anything away from him. He's definitely one of the pantheon level dudes who deserves that. It's just that the sport he played was very, very different than it is today.


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 8, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> In an 8 team, barely integrated league with no free agency where the best teams could effectively just horde the best players - and the C's were the best at it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Russell was a god and I'm not taking anything away from him. He's definitely one of the pantheon level dudes who deserves that. It's just that the sport he played was very, very different than it is today.



its certainly difficult to make comparisons. I would add that he played at the same time as arguably the best offensive player of all time (and biggest diva Maybe).

i think when discussing “Goats” we have a natural recent bias.

Comparing LeBron to Jordan is one example. LeBron is amazing and doesn’t seem to age either but he’d have to win the next 6 championships to surpass Jordan’s rate of winning 0.4 rings per year of his career.

Furthermore, Jordan won every finals series he was in while LeBron lost more than he won. And Jordan played and excelled in an era with much laxer defensive rules. The pistons got away with fouling him every trip down the lane. In today’s game that’s absolutely impossible. Whistle every time.

sorry for the OT


----------



## BillHanna (Feb 8, 2021)

alterwisser said:


> Comparing LeBron to Jordan is one example. LeBron is amazing and doesn’t seem to age either but he’d have to win the next 6 championships to surpass Jordan’s rate of winning 0.4 rings per year of his career.
> 
> Furthermore, Jordan won every finals series he was in while LeBron lost more than he won.
> 
> sorry for the OT


I hate this argument against LeBron. 10 finals in 17 years v 6 in 15. That's more impressive to me.


----------



## AT5760 (Feb 8, 2021)

I love Joe Montana. Super Bowl XXIV was the first one I remember watching and was a formative football experience for me. I will always have a bias toward Joe Montana. That said, the body of Tom Brady's work and the length of time that he has been able to play at such a high level, to me, make him the greatest QB that the NFL has ever seen. 

I'll wait for a new thread to comment on Jordan vs. James


----------



## parbaked (Feb 8, 2021)

TBTBTBTBTBTBTBTBTBTBTB...


----------



## Bill13 (Feb 8, 2021)

I think the GOAT in sports is Wayne Gretzky. Wayne Gretzky is the GOAT of GOATs (msn.com) 

A Reminder That All Wayne Gretzky Stats Are Laugh Out Loud Funny | Barstool Sports


----------



## panda (Feb 8, 2021)

Brady was already GOAT, now people really can't argue against it.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 8, 2021)

alterwisser said:


> its certainly difficult to make comparisons. I would add that he played at the same time as arguably the best offensive player of all time (and biggest diva Maybe).
> 
> i think when discussing “Goats” we have a natural recent bias.
> 
> ...



That argument against LeBron is garbage, to me. Because if you want to roll with that, Scottie Pippin is better than Magic, LBJ, Bird, etc., and we all know that's not the case. Russell is equally better than Jordan, and by a crap ton. Also not true of course. 



BillHanna said:


> I hate this argument against LeBron. 10 finals in 17 years v 6 in 15. That's more impressive to me.



This. I'm not saying James is better, but 6/6 isn't individually better than 4/10.


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 8, 2021)

BillHanna said:


> I hate this argument against LeBron. 10 finals in 17 years v 6 in 15. That's more impressive to me.



you’re obviously entitled to that opinion but the fact remains that he lost 60% of the finals he went to and Jordan won100%of his


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 8, 2021)

alterwisser said:


> you’re obviously entitled to that opinion but the fact remains that he lost 60% of the finals he went to and Jordan won100%of his



Robert Horry has won more finals then Jordan, he's clearly better. That's what you are saying? Judging individuals in a team game solely on rings is silly. 

Again, I'm not saying Jordan is better or worse than LeBron - they are both otherworldly - but Jordan's TEAM was clearly better then their opponent all 6 times. That's just not the case for LeBron. A couple of his teams were clearly better, a few clearly worse, a couple close. You mentioned looser foul rules back in the day, and that's true, but there was also strict illegal defense then, plus defensive strategies were fingerpainting compared to the picasso we see now. And of course free agency was a joke compared to after.


----------



## parbaked (Feb 8, 2021)

Jordan was a better baseball player, but LeBron would make a better tight end....


----------



## BillHanna (Feb 8, 2021)

If you win all of your finals, you're better than someone who went to more finals. Season to taste.


----------



## panda (Feb 8, 2021)

shut up about basketball, go make another thread.


----------



## BillHanna (Feb 8, 2021)

How dare you. All threads must be derailed.


----------



## panda (Feb 8, 2021)

BillHanna said:


> How dare you. All threads must be derailed.


not if its just going to get locked, that ruins it and makes me not want to come back. I've been on kkf a lot less as of late and that's part of the reason.

for the record, I will participate in a new basketball thread. just dont want this thread diluted.


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 8, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> That argument against LeBron is garbage, to me. Because if you want to roll with that, Scottie Pippin is better than Magic, LBJ, Bird, etc., and we all know that's not the case



Of course, and Robert Horry is better than all of them. And I every role player on those Celtics teams as well.

The title argument can - of course - only be useful when comparing players who are without any doubt the best players of their generation and of all time.

There are plenty of other arguments pro Jordan. Ultimately we very well might end up with 1A and 1B type of rating these two. Currently LBJ is in the discussion because he has been really great for a darn long time.

Jordan was great for 13 seasons. The last 2 with the Wizards were a joke. He should’ve never come back, but ok, it is what it is.


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 8, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I'm not saying James is better, but 6/6 isn't individually better than 4/10.



Why not?

So you would rank less titles higher because he went to more finals? And you rate a flawless winning percentage lower than a 40% winning percentage because he went to four more finals (in 2 more years)?

If you were to ask LeBron or Kobe (when it was possible) or Russell or Jordan... they would all tell you it’s all about winning the title.

Nobody really cares about the loser in a final down the road, unless it’s some kind of spectacular shi**ing the bed like the Warriors blowing the 3:1 lead against the Cavs after winning 73 games ....


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 8, 2021)

parbaked said:


> Jordan was a better baseball player, but LeBron would make a better tight end....



he certainly seems to be a better father, husband and socially conscious person.

Jordan just wanted to sell sneakers


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 8, 2021)

panda said:


> not if its just going to get locked, that ruins it and makes me not want to come back. I've been on kkf a lot less as of late and that's part of the reason.
> 
> for the record, I will participate in a new basketball thread. just dont want this thread diluted.



Sorry for that ... maybe we can have the Mods move this to a new thread?


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Feb 8, 2021)

A year ago saw a public vote of best Quarterback of all time Joe Montana still most popular. 

Janice couldn't believe I was for the Buc's 
She was for the Chefs & has watched me root against Tom Brady SB's in the past.

Figured he was greatest after Atlanta SB. 

Liked the Buc's when Tony Dungy was building one of best defenses in NFL history. Year after he left they won the Superbowl. Jon Lynch went Into Hall of Fame, joining Derrick Brooks & Warren Sapp also from that defense. I liked watching Sapp & Brooks excitement that Buc's were in it again. It was easy for me to root for the Buc's.

Also since they came up hard way from wildcard beating good teams & SB with defense. Brady convincing a talented team that they could win it all. Some how like Brady better with that Pirate flag on his helmet. 

Was happy to see Tom Flores finally make it into Hall of Fame.


----------



## BillHanna (Feb 8, 2021)

Does this get Bowles a HC job, if this defense succeeds another year?


----------



## panda (Feb 8, 2021)

Bowles should stick to what he's best at and that's running a defense.

hoping lovie Smith can fix houstons defense.


----------



## panda (Feb 8, 2021)

what in the idiocy is this? how is the super bowl winning team not ranked #1?? 





shame on you espn


----------



## AT5760 (Feb 8, 2021)

I think the sports media has moved on from Tom Brady. The love-to-hate Pats narrative generated a ton of clicks. His move away from Belichick and New England was a decent story, but now what? Not much left to debate or speculate about.

They need a new product to hype and the Chiefs fit the bill. Mahomes is terrific and they play the style of high scoring, big play offense that the NFL wants to sell. The longer that Brady remains relevant, the less time the Chiefs have to be "America's team."


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 8, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> The longer that Brady remains relevant, the less time the Chiefs have to be "America's team."



By now we have to assume he remains relevant for as long as he plays. Didn’t be talk about 2 more seasons?

If he does I’d bet he wins one more...


----------



## rmrf (Feb 8, 2021)

I love the bills, but bills above bucs? Packers above bucs?? Thats nuts.

I can see the rams being high with the new stafford signing, but #5 is really high.

The seahawks and niners being above the steelers is hard to swallow. I would say browns, titans, steelers, seahawks. The niners have a lot of free agents to re-sign not to mention the uncertainty of jimmy G. I wouldn't put them on this list until they take care of some of these things.

Regarding chiefs, NFL/ESPN bias for offense and explosive plays is showing


----------



## panda (Feb 8, 2021)

steelers are a pretenders team lol


----------



## panda (Feb 8, 2021)

I really thought Shaq Barrett should have got sb mvp, every year it's a frigging qb. so tired of it.


----------



## rmrf (Feb 8, 2021)

Re steelers, true but the seahawks are russell wilson running around like a greased monkey and throwing it deep to dk or lockette for half a season. I think the steelers have a better defense than the seahawks, but I'll admit that I don't watch many steelers games.


----------



## DavidPF (Feb 8, 2021)

BillHanna said:


> I hate this argument against LeBron. 10 finals in 17 years v 6 in 15. That's more impressive to me.


It's pretty hard (probably impossible) to make a numbers-based decision between these two that's truly convincing. On "either of them" vs "me", the answer is crystal clear , but deciding between two great players never gets anywhere until you admit that you're judging based on who and what you like better (the style of play, the person, etc). Which is perfectly good when you know that's what you're doing.


----------



## tgfencer (Feb 8, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> It's pretty hard (probably impossible) to make a numbers-based decision between these two that's truly convincing. On "either of them" vs "me", the answer is crystal clear , but deciding between two great players never gets anywhere until you admit that you're judging based on who and what you like better (the style of play, the person, etc). Which is perfectly good when you know that's what you're doing.



I never understood why folks want to go down the GOAT rabbit hole, in any sport. Take soccer, for instance. Messi, Ronaldo, and Pele all have their very fervent camps. But comparing across generations is pointless and rating individuals in a team sport without taking into account the context of their own team and that of their varied competition is a difficult thing to do with any real integrity of rationale. Not saying it isn't fun or interesting to discuss, but if we're being honest, the whole buzz around GOATs in any sport is largely just clickbait/fanbait.


----------



## DavidPF (Feb 8, 2021)

rmrf said:


> NFL/ESPN bias for offense and explosive plays is showing


Old-fashioned inch-by-inch grinding style of football, _when you put it on TV_, is like watching paint dry. Showy plays and wild unexpected results increase ratings.


----------



## DavidPF (Feb 8, 2021)

tgfencer said:


> if we're being honest, the whole buzz around GOATs in any sport is largely just clickbait/fanbait.


Especially because of the very real possibility that the true GOAT in a sport might play in a position where not a lot of points are scored. I don't think anybody in hockey classes Larry Robinson as GOAT, but it isn't because he wasn't (isn't) good.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Feb 8, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Old-fashioned inch-by-inch grinding style of football, _when you put it on TV_, is like watching paint dry. Showy plays and wild unexpected results increase ratings.


I love defense seeing Tampa Bay was awesome, but your right the air show is what they want. If you consider Mahomes one of the 
best that's why they were picked by most.
Limited to 3 field goals, has a purity to it. 
Combination of coaching and pedal to the metal superb athletes.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 8, 2021)

Basketball is stupid.


----------



## DavidPF (Feb 8, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Basketball is stupid.


I've fixed it but no one will listen. They tried raising the net higher and claimed it didn't help - but they only raised it a little bit. Having the hoop either 6 feet off the floor or 20 feet - not in between - would change basketball into a skill sport instead of a luck sport. (The luck of being tall)

It would still be stupid though.


----------



## juice (Feb 8, 2021)

tgfencer said:


> I never understood why folks want to go down the GOAT rabbit hole, in any sport.


This, it's pointless. Speaking as a former long-time sports journalist.

It's nearly as dumb as the argument that "XXXX is greatest because they won XX championships" as if it was only them that mattered to the result.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 8, 2021)

But Brady clearly was the difference maker. Sure it’s a team sport, but literally every Tampa player credits Brady for his leadership abilities in getting them a championship.
The choice is clear, there’s no conversation to be had about who the GOAT is anymore. Brady has the rings and will walk away with all the records in 2 years.
Sorry haters.


----------



## DavidPF (Feb 9, 2021)

Knute Rockne (and friends and near contemporaries) popularizing the forward pass = undisputed GOAT

(Just to prove @juice 's point that GOAT is pointless babble always)


----------



## labor of love (Feb 9, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Knute Rockne (and friends and near contemporaries) popularizing the forward pass = undisputed GOAT
> 
> (Just to prove @juice 's point that GOAT is pointless babble always)


Not much of an argument tbh


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 9, 2021)

panda said:


> what in the idiocy is this? how is the super bowl winning team not ranked #1?? View attachment 113418
> 
> 
> shame on you espn



That's ranking for next year, and KC was the best team in the league this year, and they are mostly pretty young. This happens all the time, FWIW.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 9, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> I think the sports media has moved on from Tom Brady. The love-to-hate Pats narrative generated a ton of clicks. His move away from Belichick and New England was a decent story, but now what? Not much left to debate or speculate about.
> 
> They need a new product to hype and the Chiefs fit the bill. Mahomes is terrific and they play the style of high scoring, big play offense that the NFL wants to sell. The longer that Brady remains relevant, the less time the Chiefs have to be "America's team."



Have you seen the front pages of every sports site in the states? Brady Brady Brady Brady Brady every minute up to the game, and every minute since. I don't think they are going to let us move on from Tom, until Tom wants to let us go.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 9, 2021)

And to contribute to the rest, GOAT talk is silly. Appreciate the players, they don't need to be ranked. Because I can come up with arguments for why someone else is wrong on every point. I have a friend who will get sucked into an argument if someone in the room even _thinks_ Messi > CR7.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Feb 9, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Have you seen the front pages of every sports site in the states? Brady Brady Brady Brady Brady every minute up to the game, and every minute since. I don't think they are going to let us move on from Tom, until Tom wants to let us go.



Your worst nightmare bro


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 9, 2021)

labor of love said:


> But Brady clearly was the difference maker. Sure it’s a team sport, but literally every Tampa player credits Brady for his leadership abilities in getting them a championship.
> The choice is clear, there’s no conversation to be had about who the GOAT is anymore. Brady has the rings and will walk away with all the records in 2 years.
> Sorry haters.



Agreed. Especially considering that Tampa Bay sucked for years before Brady showed up. Sure it’s a team game, but come on it’s pretty obvious that Brady is a major if not the major factor in the Bucs succeeding this year.

I don’t think the GOAT discussion is silly at all, it’s part of the game. And it’s not even driven by the media, it’s fan driven.

But football is a silly Sport anyway. There I said it


----------



## labor of love (Feb 9, 2021)

Any argument that doesn’t insist Brady is the GOAT is the wrong argument


----------



## alterwisser (Feb 9, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> _thinks_ Messi > CR7



that’s easy, it’s Franz Beckenbauer


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Feb 9, 2021)

panda said:


> I really thought Shaq Barrett should have got sb mvp, every year it's a frigging qb. so tired of it.



Agree with this that defense was playing lights out deff. reason they won the SB.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 9, 2021)

Yup the TB defense came to play. The Chiefs battered line helped.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 9, 2021)

I’m trying to remember how many points Tampa’s defense scored...oh that’s right every point scored in the game for Tampa was by someone Tom brought in this season.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 9, 2021)

labor of love said:


> I’m trying to remember how many points Tampa’s defense scored...oh that right every point scored in the game for Tampa was by someone Tom brought in this season.



He brought in the refs that couldn't stop calling BS penalties one way only? Wait, did TB sign Gronk and pay him? Brady signed Fournette? He writes checks to AB? 

Note: I have no skin in this game and don't care about either team. Brady is amazing and has been for a long time. This wasn't one of his best games, or one of his best seasons, but it was still damn good. But teams win games, not individuals. Tampa had arguably the best receivers in the league already when brady signed. All of Jameis Winston was a good passer there - Tampa led the league in passing yards in 2019, the year before Brady arrived. Gronk didn't massively move the needle and AB was an afterthought for everyone who is basically lucky to still be playing in the league. Brady was a big improvement on Jameis, but it's not like Tampa had the Jets offense or anything.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 9, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Wait, did TB sign Gronk and pay him? Brady signed Fournette? He writes checks to AB?


Essentially he did. He recruited all of them, and they all came to Tampa to play for/with Tom. 
Don’t forget the kicker.


----------



## rmrf (Feb 9, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Gronk didn't massively move the needle


While I agree that football is a team sport and the bucs were potent offense before Brady, I think Gronk does move the needle in the playoffs. He offers Brady a 6ft7 security blanket / bodyguard. When Brady needs a 1st down or a touchdown or an impact play, he trusts Gronk. If he's worried about the pass rush, gronk blocks. I think the patriots would have gotten much further last year with a healthy Gronk.


----------



## McMan (Feb 9, 2021)

Here's some apples and oranges...

Aaron Rodgers had 334 fewer yards than Brady, 29 fewer completions, and 8 more TDs. Rodgers won MVP.

Over the regular season, Brady was 3rd in passing yards (4633), 2nd in completions (401--which is only 6 less than Stafford's 407), tied with Russ for 2nd in TDs (40).


----------



## labor of love (Feb 9, 2021)

McMan said:


> Here's some apples and oranges...
> 
> Aaron Rodgers had 334 fewer yards than Brady, 29 fewer completions, and 8 more TDs. Rodgers won MVP.
> 
> Over the regular season, Brady was 3rd in passing yards (4633), 2nd in completions (401--which is only 6 less than Stafford's 407), tied wit Russ for 2nd in TDs (40).


At 43 years of age. Phenomenal. Who else has done that at 43?


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 9, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Essentially he did. He recruited all of them, and they all came to Tampa to play for/with Tom.
> Don’t forget the kicker.



He didn't recruit Gronk. Gronk had retired, Brady signed down in Tampa, Gronk announced publicly that he'd love to play in florida, it was worked out. AB was again on the junk pile, actively trying to get any team to sign him, Tampa made an offer after a while. None of this degrades Tom, but he's not the owner, GM or coach of the team. The overwhelming majority of Tampa's skill position production in 2020 was people on the roster before Brady signed. Just facts.


----------



## big_adventure (Feb 9, 2021)

labor of love said:


> At 43 years of age. Phenomenal. Who else has done that at 43?


Nobody, of course. Dude knows how to take care of himself. He's incredible.


----------



## labor of love (Feb 9, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> He didn't recruit Gronk. Gronk had retired, Brady signed down in Tampa, Gronk announced publicly that he'd love to play in florida, it was worked out. AB was again on the junk pile, actively trying to get any team to sign him, Tampa made an offer after a while. None of this degrades Tom, but he's not the owner, GM or coach of the team. The overwhelming majority of Tampa's skill position production in 2020 was people on the roster before Brady signed. Just facts.


Sorry but you’re just wrong. Why do I say this? Because all before mentioned players have said as much in various interviews. Even Arians has said he just takes a step back and lets Brady coach.


----------



## rmrf (Feb 9, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> He didn't recruit Gronk. Gronk had retired, Brady signed down in Tampa, Gronk announced publicly that he'd love to play in florida, it was worked out.











Timeline of Gronk's NFL Retirement, Comeback


A look at the timeline of Buccaneers tight end Rob Gronkowski's retirement and comeback to the NFL.




www.si.com





I think its more like, Brady left the patriots for the bucs. Gronk wanted to play with Brady and not the Patriots so the patriots traded his rights to the bucs for a 4th. Its true that the Bucs made the deal, but I don't think Gronk would have came out of retirement to play with Jameis Winston.


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## labor of love (Feb 9, 2021)

Tony Gonzales has spoken about after he hung it up that Brady reached out to him to just “throw the ball” one afternoon...afterwards Brady told Tony he was in great shape and he could come play for the Pats if he wanted to. 
Gonzo thought about it pretty hard but declined.


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## labor of love (Feb 9, 2021)

Bruce Arians went on record saying he wouldn’t sign Antonio Brown publicly. Yet he made it to the team somehow.
My guess is Brady dropped his nuts on the table and told BA we’re bringing in AB.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 9, 2021)

Yes Brady didn't do the hiring but he did make the pitch for Brown & Fournette when he came available. 

Brady's last year at Patriots he didn't have receivers that could get open. He had taken cuts in pay to stay under cap so team could be better. They still had winning season, but they were not a elite team & Brady knew it. He really missed Gronk & they dropped Brown off the roster because couldn't keep he stupid mouth shut. 

He has been around 20 years & is football smart. He knew that TB had a lot of talent on both sides of the ball that's why he went there.

Talking heads wondered why because they had a losing season. Brady saw it. Their defense was ranked toward end of the season. 

Is Brady great because of his rings & athletic ability. Mahomes is much better physical athlete than Brady. He knows what it takes to win it's a team sport without a good team your squat. He would have been knocked out off the playoffs early if not for that superb defense.

Defense won both Saints & GB victories. Brady threw 3 picks in GB game. Not because of QB the defense is why I thought they had chance to beat the Chiefs. Those two weeks they prepared with good game plan & Brady drilled into their heads that they were going to win the SB. That's leadership.


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## DavidPF (Feb 10, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Knute Rockne (and friends and near contemporaries) popularizing the forward pass = undisputed GOAT





labor of love said:


> Not much of an argument tbh


It's absolutely an excellent argument; it sounds just as good as yours does (i.e. worthless), it's just as easy to prove as yours is (i.e. impossible), and that's the point.

Not because of anything wrong with either Brady or Rockne, but because of the complete futility of trying to say who's the best ever. (Especially if the true best ever was a cornerback or offensive tackle)


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> It's absolutely an excellent argument; it sounds just as good as yours does (i.e. worthless), it's just as easy to prove as yours is (i.e. impossible), and that's the point.
> 
> Not because of anything wrong with either Brady or Rockne, but because of the complete futility of trying to say who's the best ever. (Especially if the true best ever was a cornerback or offensive tackle)



This is certainly a thing.

JJ Watt, before the injuries set in, was so ridiculously good that you basically can't even compare him to other defensive players at the time. If there was a stat, he dominated it, and he passed the eye test as well. He defended the run, he rushed the passer, he caused turnovers and he racked up tackles. Darrel Revis, during his 4 or so year peak, was as disruptive as one can be at corner. He was so good that he didn't pick off all that many passes, simply because QBs never had an opening on a man he was defending, but advanced stats and play-by-play tracking showed him to be definitively, massively better than everyone else, and again, that passed the eye test. Dwight Stephenson, when he was center for the Dolphins, was so ridiculous that, despite being small, nose tackles would break their own schemes to shade off him to not be embarrassed.

That said, the QB is the most _impactful_ position on the field/court/rink for any large team sport. They literally touch the ball on nearly half the plays (all offense plays except tricks, and most teams don't run more than a couple of those a season at most), and are responsable for most of the active decision-making on most of those plays. That's just not true for any other sport. That doesn't mean that the QB is the _best_ player automatically, but it is hard to argue against the value of someone who touches the ball that often. Skill, with everything that encompasses - talent, availability, leadership (which is a ******** dump, but I digress), etc., is part of the "value" equation, but the other part is opportunity. And the QB has many more opportunities to impact a game, positively or negatively, than any other single player in a team sport, compared to the opportunities of those around them. And those opps are visible, because the QB has the ball.


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## panda (Feb 10, 2021)

should make two mvp, one for qbs only and one every other position.


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Yes Brady didn't do the hiring but he did make the pitch for Brown & Fournette when he came available.
> 
> Brady's last year at Patriots he didn't have receivers that could get open. He had taken cuts in pay to stay under cap so team could be better. They still had winning season, but they were not a elite team & Brady knew it. He really missed Gronk & they dropped Brown off the roster because couldn't keep he stupid mouth shut.
> 
> ...



Brown was terrible with the Pats, and he was nothing but a barely above average possession receiver with the Bucs this year. The fact that he scored in the SB doesn't change that.

Gronk was a more-or-less average tight end this year. He was barely a shadow of the GRONK of ages past.

Fournette was a more-or-less average running back this year, he looked pretty good against the Chiefs, but that's a conflux of a good game plan by the Bucs, a good game by Fournette, and the fact that the Chiefs were and are a terrible rush defense. They are just usually winning by enough points that they don't face as much rushing.

All of that said, advanced stats like those at Football Outsiders already picked the Bucs as slightly better then the Chiefs going into the game, and mostly because of their vastly superior defense.


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

panda said:


> should make two mvp, one for qbs only and one every other position.



Yeah, this is why there is a DPOY and an OPOY, basically. It occasionally splits on Offense, though likely not often enough, and it still almost always winds up being a skill position player. It's hard to see exactly how dominant a guard is, but it's easy to see a running back notch 1800 yards and 19 touchdowns or something, let alone a QB doing QB stuff.


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> It's absolutely an excellent argument; it sounds just as good as yours does (i.e. worthless), it's just as easy to prove as yours is (i.e. impossible), and that's the point.
> 
> Not because of anything wrong with either Brady or Rockne, but because of the complete futility of trying to say who's the best ever. (Especially if the true best ever was a cornerback or offensive tackle)


Nope. Brady has the rings, stats, records leadership, vision, and dedication to be the GOAT.


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Brown was terrible with the Pats, and he was nothing but a barely above average possession receiver with the Bucs this year. The fact that he scored in the SB doesn't change that.
> 
> Gronk was a more-or-less average tight end this year. He was barely a shadow of the GRONK of ages past.
> 
> ...


Fournette was averaging over 100 yards from scrimmage every post season game the Bucs played. He was well above average when it mattered.


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Nope. Brady has the rings, stats, records leadership, vision, and dedication to be the GOAT.



There are a number of QBs with better stats - not career longevity based stats of course, where his "great skill plus playing literally forever" is unbelievable - but seasonal or career rate stats. He's got the rings, but rings aren't won by individuals. Dedication? He's not even objectively the best at that - Manning, for example, was legendary in that regard. "Vision?" Yeah, nah. He's great, but objectively? Go on, prove it. He's one of the best on so many levels - longevity, he's the best ever and it's not close. Skill? One of the best, definitely, but not "the" best - his numbers, compared to his contemporaries, don't make him head and shoulders better. Arm? Good arm, not "best eva" arm. Touch? Brilliant, definitely, but not better then a number of other guys. Ability to analyze the game? Of course he's brilliant, but objectively the best? Nope. 

You are clearly a Brady fan, so you are not objective here. That's fine: being a sports fan is not about objectivity. That said, you are never going to get me to say "Brady is the GOAT" and mean it, so why are you trying? We KNOW you believe that, you've stated it in at least a dozen posts in this thread. I'm not trying to get you to renounce your beliefs. You can name your next 5 kids Tom Brady I through V and it doesn't bother me. But you saying it over and over again, using arguments like MOST RINGIEST EVER isn't going to change my mind.

So I will exit the discussion, and leave you to it. Enjoy!


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Fournette was averaging over 100 yards from scrimmage every post season game the Bucs played. He was well above average when it mattered.



All three of the post season games they played? Really bad players have had really good two game stretches. It doesn't make them great players.


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> All three of the post season games they played? Really bad players have had really good two game stretches. It doesn't make them great players.


He was like the 6th pick in the draft and a standout college athlete. I guess the rest of the league didn’t see in Fournette what Tampa(Brady) did which explains why someone else didn’t win the SB.
Seems desperate to downplay his playoff performance. I mean, it wasn’t luck or a fluke...he rose to the occasion when it mattered most.


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

labor of love said:


> He was like the 6th pick in the draft and a standout college athlete. I guess the rest of the league didn’t see in Fournette what Tampa(Brady) did which explains why someone else didn’t win the SB.
> Seems desperate to downplay his playoff performance. I mean, it wasn’t luck or a fluke...he rose to the occasion when it mattered most.



He was amazing in college until he started racking up injuries. He was an overdraft by a terrible team known for bad drafts (Jax), who cut bait on him because he wasn't worth more than an off-the-shelf option for a team going nowhere (and going nowhere, primarily, because of crappy drafts). And the idea that Jax would have won the super bowl with Fournette is pretty laughable. Do you think that Fournette was the difference between Jax being good and bad this year? Which, hate to break it to you, he wasn't. He was a serviceable back and that's it. There is no such thing as "turns it on when it matters most" - because you don't stay a professional athlete if you can't turn it on to win all the time, basically. Yes, there are example in basketball of someone like Shaq phoning it in for a while, but that's Shaq, not Fournette, and that was Shaq playing with a handful of rings already in his pocket on the best team in the league.

Here are Fournette's stats in the playoffs, over 4 games:

WC game: 5 carries, 13 yards, 2 catches, 14 yards
Div game: 19-93, 4-39
NFC Champ; 17-63, 5-44
SB: 16-89, 4-46

Game one was objectively bad. Game two was pretty damn good, Game three was middling, SB was pretty good. Nothing there spells genius. And this was playing behind a very good line, with a brilliant offensive coach, with arguably the best tandem of receivers in the league on the outside, two decent tight ends (one of whom is Gronk), a decent slot receiver (AB) and, oh yeah, that dude you keep calling the GOAT under center. You can find that level of performance at running back, for cheap, basically any time you look for it. It just wasn't particularly special. Good? Definitely. I'm happy for him, my parents both went to LSU so I'll always have a soft spot for the Tigers. But not OMFG GREATEST BACK EVA. Smart teams don't spend a lot on that guy, because that guy is available, easily, all the time.

I'm not downplaying anything: he had a good (not great: good) game in the Super Bowl against a truly bad defense that's even worse against the rush than the pass. Hell, I hope he cashes the hell in and somebody pays him 10m a year for 5. It's not going to happen: teams are smarter now than that. Well, maybe the Jets or Houston will overpay him.


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2021)

You’ve literally disproven nothing I’ve said. Yet attempted to imply I said things I didn’t. Jacksonville did ride Fournette to an AFC championship. Also you left out Fournettes passing stats.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 10, 2021)

can't let go
Craig is Saints to the core, I love Saints too Brees a class act. 

I thought many years Brady was overated won games with Vinaterie field goals. Giants beat him with good defense, dog#_+& luck he beat Seahawks. I would jump out of chair & yell when he got sacked.

People don't like athletes that win too much.
Take Eddy Merckx from Belgium. Many consider the best cyclist ever. He was punched in the kidney by a fan in last TDF. 

The Atlanta SB was best comeback in SB history. He willed the Patriots to Victory.

I was in the Montana camp as best ever until that game. JMH opinion.


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

labor of love said:


> You’ve literally disproven nothing I’ve said. Yet attempted to imply I said things I didn’t. Jacksonville did ride Fournette to an AFC championship. Also you left out Fournettes passing stats.



I did leave out a stat line, but it doesn't help him much. Against Green Bay:

12 carries, 55 yards, 5 catches for 19 yards. That's not even a little bit good.

Fournette's RECEIVING stats are there for every game - copied from above, where, to be fair, I screwed up when I scraped the stats, as I'll explain...

WC game: 5 carries, 13 yards, 2 catches, 14 yards (oops, this was week 17, when the bucs beat Atl, and needed to to clinch the 5 seed)
Div game: 19-93, 4-39 (this was the WC game)
NFC Champ; 17-63, 5-44 (this was the Div game)
Actual NFC champ: 12-55, 5-19
SB: 16-89, 4-46 

The second set of numbers on each line are the catches. I kind of figured that would be obvious.

His passing stats are, you know, inexistant, so I don't know why you ask for them.

And why do you think I want to disprove anything to you? You have nothing to prove to me, and have proven nothing. You have made blanket statements that sound just like Stephen A. Smith talking. You have analyzed nothing, compared nothing, and are obviously a fan of Brady, likely the Bucs as well? You are not objective, and don't need to be? It's sport, it's meant to be fun. There's nothing to disprove. You really don't need to get that mad. Me saying that Fournette was an average back, something backed up by, you know, his actual performance on the field, isn't something that should seriously anger you. If you don't agree, that's totally OK with me. One of the beautiful things about sport and life in general is that we don't all have to agree on everything. If every man only wanted the exact same sexual partner, well, most of us would be screwed and doomed to disappointment. Fortunately, that's not the case.


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2021)

Lol who's angry? Just log off for the night. Any back putting up 100 yards from scrimmage per game through the playoffs isnt average. But also, it’s not necessarily Fournettes stat line that makes him great, he made excellent runs, and blocks.
Like Keith said I’m a die hard saints fan. Tampa is a division rival. My avatar on this forum for like 8 years was Drew Brees.
But I guess you wouldn’t know that since you joined the forum 10 days ago.


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## juice (Feb 10, 2021)

Why isn't LT getting mentioned here? He changed the way the game is played.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 10, 2021)

juice said:


> Why isn't LT getting mentioned here? He changed the way the game is played.



Because not a QB  LT was so good rules were changed because of him. Phil Sims appreciated him.


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Lol who's angry? Just log off for the night. Any back putting up 100 yards from scrimmage per game through the playoffs isnt average. But also, it’s not necessarily Fournettes stat line that makes him great, he made excellent runs, and blocks.
> Like Keith said I’m a die hard saints fan. Tampa is a division rival. My avatar on this forum for like 8 years was Drew Brees.
> But I guess you wouldn’t know that since you joined the forum 10 days ago.



1. I'm in Paris, so this was all this morning for me. You managed to read down to the date I joined the forum, but not to where I am located?

2. I am most definitely not mad, I find this fun, but you can see that in that I fairly dispassionately cite data in my replies. 

3. The fact that you have been on this forum far longer than I has literally nothing at all to do with our relative knowledge or our relative opinions on football, or the validity of either. 

4. Having two good games, one mediocre game and one abjectly bad game in a four game stretch doesn't make Fournette better than average. There have been MANY backs who have averaged 100 yards from scrimmage in the playoffs who were far worse than average for their careers. There have been backs doing that who were basically never heard from again. There have been "just a guy" backs who have done that. Timmy Smith is a personal fave: in the 87 season, as a rookie, he was third string, only even touched the ball in 4 games. In the playoffs, George Rogers was injured, Kelvin Bryant was bad, Smith he averaged well over 100 yards rushing per game, including a then-record 204 in the Super Bowl, before becoming literally nothing again after. That's one example off the top of my head.

I said myself that Fournette played well, just that he's an overall average back. That's backed up by his historical production. He's got good physical tools. He's extremely "meh" in the receiving game, which has always been a critique of him all the way back to college. He's a strong, hard runner with below average speed, playing behind a really good line for a brilliant coach with arguably the best receiver talent in the league and an all-time great quarterback. He's good enough not to crap the bed or anything, but it seems like it really bothers you when I say that he's not OMG the greatest surprise ever. He's not really a surprise. There are at least 25 backs in the NFL who could give you what he does or more. That's the definition of "average." It doesn't make him a bad back, or a bad person, and I'm happy for the guy if he turns a good playoff run into serious bucks.

I don't think that he WILL, mind you, at least not with Tampa. Tampa has some pretty serious cap decisions to make, and don't really have easy ways to deal with them: Barrett, David and Godwin are all FAs. That doesn't leave a ton for a running back who wasn't even the surefire no.1 starter most of the year.




juice said:


> Why isn't LT getting mentioned here? He changed the way the game is played.



There are a ton of individuals we could bring up. LT didn't really change the way the game was played, though, he just did his role ridiculously well, at least as long as the coke was flowing. I wouldn't place LT markedly above, say, Reggie White or JJ Watt or Revis or Ronnie Lott or Mike Singletary to use contemporaries and more recent players only.

Want to see dominance? Look at Don Hutson: he held the career receiving TD mark for 44 years. And he was a good safety who led the league in picks. In 11 years (I think) he led the league in receiving yards 7 times and touchdowns 9 times. In 1942 he caught 74 passes for over 1200 yards and 17 touchdowns. That year, he had more receiving yards than 5 teams did total passing yards, and he had more receiving touchdowns than all but one other team (that team, Chicago, had 21 total). He was ridiculously dominant, statistically better than his contemporaries by a level nobody has ever approached.


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## TSF415 (Feb 10, 2021)

Too much crap to sort thru.... but if someone is trying to argue Brady ain’t the goat then y’all tripping


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

TSF415 said:


> Too much crap to sort thru.... but if someone is trying to argue Brady ain’t the goat then y’all tripping



Actually, all there has been is some people insisting on Brady GOATness and others simply saying that the discussion of GOAT isn't their style. That causes the BradyGoats to explode with rage. Not a single person has said "someone else is the GOAT" or that "Brady's not the GOAT" except in expressing that GOATness is kind of ridiculous in a team sport which has 24 or 25 other starters at minimum (long snapper, kicker, punter, one or more gunners plus the 22 on O & D) and a giant stack of coaches. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, love of goats and standard of goatness being one family of those opinions.


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2021)

You’re just repeating yourself and once again implying things I didn’t say. You came to this thread to argue with me about things I said. You’re the one throwing tldrs at me like I’m going to write a treatise in response. Its terrible that you feel the need to dedicate this much of your time attempting to disprove reality. Why would I be mad lol? Just let it go.


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## TSF415 (Feb 10, 2021)

Correct the fact it’s a team sport and Brady has more rings than any franchise is insane. Going to the Super Bowl 50% of his career, insane. If he was an individual sport athlete or playing a sport like basketball where the individual can be even more impactful, who knows how many championships he would have won.

To be clear, I’ve hated Tom Brady since he was in high school. I rooted for him once during his first Super Bowl because I hdidnt want the rams to win and I only rooted for him this year because the chiefs can suck a fat one from last years Super Bowl.


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

labor of love said:


> You’re just repeating yourself and once again implying things I didn’t say. You came to this thread to argue with me about things I said. You’re the one throwing tldrs at me like I’m going to write a treatise in response. Its terrible that you feel the need to dedicate this much of your time attempting to disprove reality. Why would I be mad lol? Just let it go.



I'm really sorry you feel that way. Fortunately there's an easy way to check, and nope, I came into the thread to reply to Keith's ask on who was going to win, etc. The posts are there.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 10, 2021)

Look at it this way be glad you didn't bet 10K on the game. 

If it makes you feel any better Brady was asked what game does he think about most in his long career. He truthfully said first loss to Giants in SB. Michael Strahan retired after that game. After sacking Brady, tackles, knocked down passes. He is on TV everybody loves him esp. New Yorkers. Brady has to see that big gap tooth smile all over again.


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## alterwisser (Feb 10, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> There are a number of QBs with better stats - not career longevity based stats of course, where his "great skill plus playing literally forever" is unbelievable - but seasonal or career rate stats. He's got the rings, but rings aren't won by individuals. Dedication? He's not even objectively the best at that - Manning, for example, was legendary in that regard. "Vision?" Yeah, nah. He's great, but objectively? Go on, prove it. He's one of the best on so many levels - longevity, he's the best ever and it's not close. Skill? One of the best, definitely, but not "the" best - his numbers, compared to his contemporaries, don't make him head and shoulders better. Arm? Good arm, not "best eva" arm. Touch? Brilliant, definitely, but not better then a number of other guys. Ability to analyze the game? Of course he's brilliant, but objectively the best? Nope.
> 
> You are clearly a Brady fan, so you are not objective here. That's fine: being a sports fan is not about objectivity. That said, you are never going to get me to say "Brady is the GOAT" and mean it, so why are you trying? We KNOW you believe that, you've stated it in at least a dozen posts in this thread. I'm not trying to get you to renounce your beliefs. You can name your next 5 kids Tom Brady I through V and it doesn't bother me. But you saying it over and over again, using arguments like MOST RINGIEST EVER isn't going to change my mind.
> 
> So I will exit the discussion, and leave you to it. Enjoy!



I’m not a Brady fan either, I find him cringeworthy and robotic as a person.

i think you actually made a compelling argument that he is the GOAT. As you said, he might not be THE best eva in the specific categories, but he’s one of the best in a lot or even all of them. Others are great or the best in ONE of them.

combine that with the longevity/consistency and the rings, et voila: GOAT

I actually think there’s less of a debate in football now than in other sports. Don’t know about Baseball but that’s tainted because of drugs.

Ok, now that I think of it: individual sports is a lot easier: is there any doubt Usain Bolt is the greatest sprinter of all time?


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## panda (Feb 10, 2021)

never would I imagine I would not want to read what someone has to say about anything football related. holy crapoly TLDR


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## panda (Feb 10, 2021)

for the Brady haters.


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

Again, I don't remotely argue against Brady's greatness, not anywhere in this thread nor anywhere else. Call him the GOAT if you want to, I just don't have any need myself to hear that term, and damn it starts a lot of fights that don't mean much. I won't argue with it. 

I will often argue when people start saying made up stuff to support their opinion. Saying that Brady is statistically one of the best ever? True! Saying his team has won more super bowls than any other player? True! Saying that he's beating the battle against time better than any other player ever? 100% so true it's insane. Plus, he's a good story - wasn't even a regular starter in college, drafted in the 6th round (though I do vomit a bit inside every time I hear that story, ever since the, I dunno, 10,000th time?).

Saying that HE is the reason that every team he has been on has won, while using that argument against others, however? That's silly. He's one of the reasons, and often a huge one, but again, football is played by dozens of players per team, every week. Saying that he has some kind of special winner gene that other people don't have, ignoring how hard those other players tried and how many games they won? That ignores the previous thing as well: it's a team game. Saying that "Arians doesn't coach and lets Brady do it" is just patently false and, honestly, doesn't need to be stated to acknowledge that Brady is great or Da Greatest or whatever title anyone is comfortable giving him. Note: I'm not attirbuting those comments to anyone particularly here - no anger or venom required: those are constant things we hear on ESPN or whatever and don't need to exist.

Same thing applies to Jordan, to LeBron, to Gretzky and Lemieux: to anybody in any team sport. 

And again, that's just my opinion. I respect anyone else's as well. Not that I won't discuss it, even argue points, but that's the fun of sports! 

Well, I think I've typed 3 full novels worth of text in this thread that nobody is ever going to read. I get everyone's point about Tommy - and I will swear right along everyone here that the dude is insanely good. Absolutely great. I won't call him the GOAT, but I don't call anyone ELSE the GOAT either - and Brady definitely has as much or more claim on that title as anyone, were it to be awarded.

Peace and love! And sharp knives. Especially those.


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## big_adventure (Feb 10, 2021)

panda said:


> for the Brady haters.
> View attachment 113743



Literally nobody here has hated AT ALL on Brady.


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## AT5760 (Feb 10, 2021)

If you don't want to participate in a discussion about whether Brady is the best NFL player ever, then don't. Though at this point, most people seem to agree that there isn't much of a discussion to be had. 

I understand the argument that it's difficult to compare players across eras, or across positions. But I don't get the argument that participation in a team sport makes determination of a sport's greatest player impossible or pointless. 

Personally, these types of discussions, comparisons, and speculation are part of what make sports fun. And isn't that why we watch sports?


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## panda (Feb 10, 2021)

Sean Taylor would have been GOAT safety, yes better than Ronnie lott. fight me.


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## Byphy (Feb 10, 2021)

Grew up in the bay. Montana was my sports hero growing up. I held onto his goathood as long as I could. TB closed the door on the convo after 28-3. Everything else is icing on the cake for him.

The tough part is if you were a Brady hater like myself, you saw potential in Mahomes taking the mantle in the future. But that's gonna be near impossible now, being that a 43 yr old Brady beat him in a SB.

Mahomes would have to hope for a rematch, beat an older Brady, and then go on to win 6 to 7 more sb's after. Tough. Love that Romo brought this up during the broadcast.


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## Keith Sinclair (Feb 10, 2021)

Gronk is not robotic.


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## TSF415 (Feb 10, 2021)

panda said:


> Sean Taylor would have been GOAT safety, yes better than Ronnie lott. fight me.



Can't rely on the what if's. RIP Taylor a true great one but unfortunately he didn't get the chance to be the goat. No telling what would have happened if he kept playing. Just look at Patrick Willis, he ended up retiring from a toe injury and not wanting to end up with serious CTE.


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## rmrf (Feb 10, 2021)

TSF415 said:


> Just look at Patrick Willis, he ended up retiring from a toe injury and not wanting to end up with serious CTE.


I remember him running down a WR against the cardinals (I think?). I miss watching him stack and shed blockers in the run game.


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## alterwisser (Feb 11, 2021)

AT5760 said:


> I understand the argument that it's difficult to compare players across eras, or across positions. But I don't get the argument that participation in a team sport makes determination of a sport's greatest player impossible or pointless



This!

Without a doubt this is possible in a team Sport, because if it’s not we basically say that we can’t discuss Jordan’s greatness because Bill Wennington, Judd Buechler and Luc Longley were also key parts of those Bulls dynasties (don’t forget Bison Dele, RIP!).

There clearly are players that are much more important to a teams success than others. And in Brady’s case (and LeBrons) you also have to acknowledge that they won no matter who played with them. Eg: the supporting cast was revolving, but the success stayed .... with those players. Every team that LeBron left stunk up the place afterwards.


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## labor of love (Feb 11, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Basketball is stupid.


I take back this statement. Shaq is also a GOAT. Simply for his personality and his bickering with Charles Barkley.


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## alterwisser (Feb 11, 2021)

labor of love said:


> I take back this statement. Shaq is also a GOAT. Simply for his personality and his bickering with Charles Barkley.



Most definitely, the NBA misses characters like him and Barkley these days. People take themselves too seriously (apart from Klay Thompson and Javale McGee maybe, or the Lopez brothers).


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## panda (Feb 11, 2021)

speaking of Willis, if they let Megatron into the hall with an unfinished career, where the hell is willis!!??


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## Byphy (Feb 11, 2021)

alterwisser said:


> Most definitely, the NBA misses characters like him and Barkley these days. People take themselves too seriously (apart from Klay Thompson and Javale McGee maybe, or the Lopez brothers).


Klay is just high on life. Emphasis on high.


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## alterwisser (Feb 11, 2021)

Byphy said:


> Klay is just high on life. Emphasis on high.



meh, nothing wrong with that. I think he’s one of the most down to earth guys in pro sports and there’s a reason why he’s beloved by teammates and opponents.

Not sure I should feel sorry for a rich guy playing a child’s game for a living, but I kinda feel sorry for him having to sit out another year with a devastating injury.

Anyhow: how bout that Brady guy?


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## big_adventure (Feb 11, 2021)

alterwisser said:


> meh, nothing wrong with that. I think he’s one of the most down to earth guys in pro sports and there’s a reason why he’s beloved by teammates and opponents.
> 
> Not sure I should feel sorry for a rich guy playing a child’s game for a living, but I kinda feel sorry for him having to sit out another year with a devastating injury.



He sure seems like a solid guy, and yeah, the league is less fun without him in it.



alterwisser said:


> Anyhow: how bout that Brady guy?



Who?


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## big_adventure (Feb 11, 2021)

labor of love said:


> I take back this statement. Shaq is also a GOAT. Simply for his personality and his bickering with Charles Barkley.



You can hate Shaq's game (you shouldn't, just saying you could), you can hate his arrogance playing, but you have to, _have to_ appreciate the character in his post playing days.


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## DavidPF (Feb 16, 2021)

alterwisser said:


> Ok, now that I think of it: individual sports is a lot easier: is there any doubt Usain Bolt is the greatest sprinter of all time?


Assuming being best at sprinting is the only requirement, then there can't be any doubt or objection.

Every sport has question marks regarding drugs, and has for a long time. If that is brought in, then everything becomes a bit less clear, but it's an impossible thing to pinpoint so what can you do.

Other than drugs, there isn't even a way to cheat in sprinting other than a massive conspiracy, which is highly unlikely. Sprinting is conceptually about as simple as it's possible to get. So I think there's no real way for anyone to say it's not Bolt, until someone beats his records.


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## sododgy (Feb 19, 2021)

I almost posted a couple of times earlier but didn't want to get too OT. I agree that individual sports are the only place for GOAT discussion. On previous talks of the most dominant athlete in their sport, Aleksandr Karelin was a Greco-Roman heavyweight and and the embodiment of dominance. 4 consecutive Olympic appearances, with three gold and one silver. 29 championships all together, 887-2 record, was unbeaten for 13 years until his final match (that last Olympics), and for six of those years didn't lose a single point. 


Anyway, I'm stoked on the Wentz pick up for Indy. If he doesn't entirely **** the bed (which I don't see), we got him at a really good price. Reich wants him here, he wants to be here, and hopefully we can get back some karma by turning his career around to make up for the way we ruined Luck's.


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## panda (Apr 1, 2021)

devonta smith reminds me of marvin harrisson


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## labor of love (Apr 1, 2021)

Justin Fields reminds me of Jamarcus Russell.


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## BillHanna (Apr 1, 2021)

Please don’t say that name. Too soon.


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## Byphy (Apr 1, 2021)

Hoping 9ers get Zach Attack


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## rmrf (Apr 1, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Justin Fields reminds me of Jamarcus Russell.


They're completely different. People love Fields' arm but they love Russell's legs. Fields throws running left in shorts while Russell throws kneeling in shorts. How could you possible compare them. 

As a niners fan, he scares me too. I have reservations about all of the QBs in this draft. (Besides Lawrence, whom I have never watched) 

Mond is a stiff Kaepernick? Mediocre accuracy
Lance threw less than 300 pass attempts
Wilson is a one year wonder playing against scrubs in a covid season who already had a throwing shoulder injury and isn't as great at reading coverages as people claim
Fields is late with his eyes / the ball, has a wonky throwing motion, and has questionable decision making (3 int vs indiana)
Jones played with 2 1st round WRs and trusted them to always win 1 on 1s. Is his anticipation/accuracy as good as people say or is he being bailed out by his WRs? Will his arm strength/mobility be sufficient? DUIs aren't a good look...
Trask is a statue throwing to megatron lite.
We're probably going to choose wrong, Kyle will get fired, and we'll be back to Chip Kelly, Jim Tomsula, Dennis Ericson level of incompetence.


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## labor of love (Apr 1, 2021)

rmrf said:


> They're completely different.


Yeah, no sh!t Sherlock it was a joke.


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## rmrf (Apr 1, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Yeah, no sh!t Sherlock it was a joke.


Sorry, I was being snarky. However, I am worried that Fields is a mobile Haskins and Haskins' career trajectory is not dissimilar to Russell's. But who knows, he might be deshawn watson without the sexual allegations.


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## panda (Apr 1, 2021)

I like trask


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