# Question about natural stones



## y32dsm (Dec 26, 2016)

I am a newbie and still dont understand about natural stones. Why do they have dramatic price differences? Let say, for example, there are A and B stone from different mountains, but hardness, paticle sizes, and cutting speed are same. Sizes, shape, and no toxic lines are also same. Not all natural stones are same, and they all can be individually different. Popularity can also play as a huge factor. However, too much price differences exist. Can anyone enlighten me?


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## K813zra (Dec 26, 2016)

y32dsm said:


> I am a newbie and still dont understand about natural stones. Why do they have dramatic price differences? Let say, for example, there are A and B stone from different mountains, but hardness, paticle sizes, and cutting speed are same. Sizes, shape, and no toxic lines are also same. Not all natural stones are same, and they all can be individually different. Popularity can also play as a huge factor. However, too much price differences exist. Can anyone enlighten me?



I am relativity new to naturals myself but if I had to wager a guess it would be that while all things seem equal on the surface, they are not. There seems to be an amount of subjectivity to the grading of natural stones as well. Also, from my understanding other things come into play such as the level of desire or rarity of a stone from a specific mine. So if there is less of one stone or more demand for it then the price is likely to go up. Some mines seem to have a reputation for producing better stones than others, at least with certain types of stone and even if that is a generalization that is not always true it is still going to factor into the bigger picture.

At least that is what I have gathered over the past year or so. I took the advice of others more experienced than I and ordered from experienced and trusted sources. Telling them what I thought I wanted/needed and they pointed me in the right direction. I have yet to be disappointed but at the same time, with naturals you make a lot of lateral moves. Not so much that you trade in one stone that is better than another, just different. Maybe better suited to a specific task your your personal taste.

It can truly be a rabbit hole. If you dive down it, enjoy as it is quite fun and very interesting.

Edit to add: 

Again I am new around here and have not yet memorized screen names but there are a few fellows on here who do very in-depth first impression and review threads on natural stones. My suggestion would be to take a look at those. The subtle nuances that differentiate these seemingly similar stones are quite often explained.


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## jklip13 (Dec 26, 2016)

Prices are entirely reflective on collectibility, that is what most natural stone buyers are after. Aesthetic features, size and weight, as well as having uniform shape all are the main dictators of price


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## y32dsm (Dec 26, 2016)

Perplexed~~ When I personally buy knives and stones, I only look for sheer performance. I care less about "Look". I guess it is just me.


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## jklip13 (Dec 26, 2016)

Yeah the natural stone market is 110% about collectibility


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## jklip13 (Dec 26, 2016)

If you're looking for performance, buy a greyish green asagi with a couple corners missing


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## bennyprofane (Dec 26, 2016)

Arent these Asagis a bit slow and better suited for razors?


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## jklip13 (Dec 26, 2016)

Nope plenty of soft asagi that cut really quickly , they just don't look it because it's black slurry on a grey stone. That's why everyone thinks white and yellow Suita cut quickly. There's a lot more contrast of black slurry on a light stone.


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## Krassi (Dec 26, 2016)

Ah by the way! Zetieum got i think a ohira asagi from Watanabe.. and it cuts like a chainsaw..excellent feedback and super clean.


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## tgfencer (Dec 26, 2016)

I feel this question is a bit more complicated than the answers that have been given. I would break it down into three categories. 

1: The physical stone itself
Certain attributes of the stone itself determine pricing. Generally speaking, it can depend on colors, with lighter colors and renge generally being more desirable; regularity of shape, with rectangular shaped/larger-sized stones being easier to use and maintain and less prone to breaking; and how clean a stone is i.e. toxic lines and inclusions as well as any cracks, missing corners, or potential weak points. The presence and rarity of each of those factors both separately and combined together in any one particular stone plays a part in pricing.

2: Mine/Provenance
On top of aesthetics and physical attributes is also considered the reputation of its mine of origin, the rarity of stones like it from that mine, and the general understanding of a mine's quality for said stones of that nature. Stones from Ohira, Nakayama, Okudo, and Shinden, as examples, often command higher prices. These mines have well established reputations and are widely recognized by users from a variety of disciplines, occupations, and geographical locations. I dont feel qualified to comment exactly why lesser known mines are less well known other than to speculate that a few reasons might include: smaller size, shorter operational period, less overall volume produced, the production of fewer quality stones, or because they havent reached much of audience outside of Japan. How this affects a stones pricing aside of its physical attributes is hard to determine exactly. There is no hard and fast rule. However, having said that, I don't believe its too far of a stretch to say that stones from lesser known mines are cheaper than well-known mines largely because they have less of a reputation. Additionally, generally speaking stones from an unknown mine often time demand a lower price than a similar stone from an identified mine, probably because they cannot trade off their mine reputations and thus potential buyers are less confident in the end-quality of the product. 

3: Supplier
For me this is actually one of the biggest reasons for natural stone price variance. If you buy from a knowledgeable and trusted vendor like Maxim or Watanabe or Jon or Aframes, you are buying not only the stone but their hard-earned expertise, plus the time they spent testing and examining the stones for their quality. On top of that, suppliers not in Japan have to import the stones to their stores (not to mention potentially ship them back overseas to a buyer) which raises the cost on their end and thus the final price on our end. On the other hand, you could potentially buy an identical stone from a guy on yahoo or ebay who found a bunch of old whetstones in his grandfathers house after he died and who just wants to get rid of them. If he doesnt understand their value or doesnt care, you may get a great stone you would have paid several hundred dollars for from a known vendor. Then you have guys in between, Metalmasters for instance, who are located in Japan with direct access to miners and wholesalers and with no need to import stones abroad. This helps keep his prices down, but on the other hand, he is hard to communicate with, does a poor job overall of describing his stones characteristics, and often stocks odd shapes and sizes alongside normal bricks. His prices reflect this middle-ground, ranging from cheap to expensive.

No idea if that was all helpful and I'm certainly no expert, but that's how I reflect on pricing structures when I consider buying natural stones.


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## Smashmasta (Dec 26, 2016)

+1 for basically all comments... Let me add a little bit more of an historical and geographical perspective.

The 'value' of a Jnat is a complicated function of many variables that each have their own functions that influence weight of the overall function...

First - Japan is an unique geographical position - it's near the rim/ring of fire - a very active tectonic location where lots of tectonic plates are active and presenting interesting and unique geographical presentations. Hongshu, Japan's main island (Japan is truly a country of islands) is part of what was once an underground, primarily sedimentary tectonic plate, that underwent a number of morphological changes via time, pressure, heat, abrasive interactions, etc. Read more here (all praise be to Alex Gilmore). Loooong story short - the country of Japan exhibits unique geographical properties found rarely elsewhere in the world. Take a quick tour of the country in Google maps, and you can see how mountainous it is, and how many mountains have been named - this speaks to my next point.

Second - Japan, more so than most other countries, is a based on a CRAFT/TRADES BASED culture - from wood carving, tea ceremonies, to calligraphy, to the art of sword combat, etc, etc, almost all which REQUIRE the need of TOOLS, and furthermore, the tools needed to MAINTAIN to these tools, IE, STONES!!! Where do you get the tools for the tools? Well near the center of Japan's then greatest population densities - near Kyoto, of course. It was only a matter of time before someone, given the relative large population of the area, discovered the practical utility of the area's natural resources and started mining them, thus snowballing the local economy that was based of craftsmanship, etc. Simply connect these (very) quick points, and you can see how important a culture (read: economy) based on crafts relies on the tools needed to maintain the tools needed to do the crafts. This is so often overlooked as a (very deep) underlying reason for the natural stones of Japan being so expensive... Anyways, fast forward several centuries, and you can see why these stones have 'proven' themselves to be of 'superior' quality, and also imagine the drain of a limited resource (that is although stones are natural, they don't grow like trees which would be considered a renewable vs limited natural resource), which would thus drive up prices.

To answer a few questions:
'True' Honyama mines (East Kyoto mines) - Narutaki, Nakayama, Okudo, Oozuku, Shoubudani, and Ozaki (all within a ~2 miles radius of each other), will almost ALWAYS command greater prices - this inflation of value is it's own function of historical prestige and thus a lengthy demand. The history of at least Shoubudani goes back 800 (see here - source not yet fully validated.) 

Stone sources near (but outside the Honyama mines of) Kyoto were the next step in claiming high prices. Follow the growing radius out from Kyoto and soon most of Japan is being mined with 'younger' (newer/smaller/farther away from Kyoto) mines having less time to express their practical qualities and having less prestige, command a reduced price. There are those who believe that only Honyama stones are worth your while (and money), and there are those who say that there are perfectly fine stones that are not Honyama, nor even near Kyoto - it all depends what you're looking for. 

I tend to be in the boat of the latter, but then again I haven't used enough stones all together to really say, but perhaps even if I did, since quality is relative to the task, I couldn't even say which is better in the end. But purely price wise, it's the market, read: demand, read: people's believes - empircal or incorrectly perceived, that truly influence the prices of stones, regardless whether or not a $1k stone from Nakayama will be better for YOUR purposes and skills, rather than a $100 Wakasa (for example)...

Throw in all the other good points from other members and you can start painting a picture of your rather broad question - the answer is rather nebulous and sometimes due to illogical reasons (read: rational people thinking irrationally despite thinking they're thinking rationally based of irrational rationality... but sometimes rationally) for why there are such discrepancies in the prices of stones. 

And now I concluded my ridiculous drunken thesis (feel free to critique if I missed/messed something up)... :doublethumbsup:


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## Nemo (Dec 27, 2016)

I thought it was a very informative thesis, Smash. To me as a Jnat virgin, anyway. So thanks.

Obviously I can't comment on the drunken part ;-)

I keep getting tugged toward this rabbit hole.

If you had to suggest a good value stone for a newbie to see how a Jnat can pretty up a blade, what stone(s) would you recommend looking at?


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## Mucho Bocho (Dec 27, 2016)

Memo, this might be a good place to start. http://www.aframestokyo.com/ohira-kiita-awasedo-japanese-natural-sharpening-stone-66276.html


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## tgfencer (Dec 27, 2016)

Interesting read, Smash. Thanks for the info! I agree with you, there are perfectly good stones from any mine and one can find a natural stone for any purpose and budget with a little digging.


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## Krassi (Dec 27, 2016)

Also many people forget that there are also european scharpening stones that are forgotten and equal or higher quality than some typical Kyoto Mountain Stuff.. The "vintage genuine Thuringia Stones" from east germany for example are on the same lavel or better than the best nakayamas.. its just that you get pretty fast some kind of tunnel vision and think" ohh it MUST be a Ohira shiro karate neon color suita of doom with stamps and blue lights that plays the rock and roll hits from the 60s"... well ehmm nope  

i really went like with a shotgun and tried a lot and still that just gives me not the right to call me an expert.. well expert in buying and wrecking my bank account but not in knowledge about the stones  
dondt forget that a mine digs out a lot of stones.. there are godlike stones and there are not so good stones.. still the same mine.. thats why the rating of the stone seller is so important for potential buyers. the knowledge of the seller lets him rate a stone after trying it! then it gets super flashy stamps... So whatever i buy not from a Trusted stones seller is just "looking at a photo and imagine it could be good"... jesus christ that sounds so crazy like buying a "catalog bride" ! ... some years ago i would have send me into the nuthouse for spending sick amounts of money on unknown stones...  well it is crazy! 

Seeya daniel


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## Smashmasta (Dec 27, 2016)

Krassi said:


> Also many people forget that there are also european scharpening stones that are forgotten and equal or higher quality than some typical Kyoto Mountain Stuff.. The "vintage genuine Thuringia Stones" from east germany for example are on the same lavel or better than the best nakayamas.. its just that you get pretty fast some kind of tunnel vision and think" ohh it MUST be a Ohira shiro karate neon color suita of doom with stamps and blue lights that plays the rock and roll hits from the 60s"... well ehmm nope
> 
> i really went like with a shotgun and tried a lot and still that just gives me not the right to call me an expert.. well expert in buying and wrecking my bank account but not in knowledge about the stones
> dondt forget that a mine digs out a lot of stones.. there are godlike stones and there are not so good stones.. still the same mine.. thats why the rating of the stone seller is so important for potential buyers. the knowledge of the seller lets him rate a stone after trying it! then it gets super flashy stamps... So whatever i buy not from a Trusted stones seller is just "looking at a photo and imagine it could be good"... jesus christ that sounds so crazy like buying a "catalog bride" ! ... some years ago i would have send me into the nuthouse for spending sick amounts of money on unknown stones...  well it is crazy!
> ...



Daniel is correct that there are maaaany good western stones (read: non Jnats) out there, although I don't know if I would say they're better or worse than jnats, as again, it all depends on application. I would say that most western stones are geared towards razors, and thus most are much harder than Jnats and thus better than most Jnats for razors, but there are well known exceptions for each. Because this forum is centered mainly around kitchen knives, and Jnats tend to be softer, it's no wonder that Jnats are favored here. Still there are members here who often praise western stones, and rightfully so.

Re: the labels - both Jnats and western stones fall prey to this, but Jnats certainly more so - again see the historical aspects of some mines being somewhat overseen by the Shogunate. Stones like Eschers, La Lunes, and other vintage labeled stones will always command higher prices, both for collect ability, but also the guarantee of a known set of characteristics - just like a stamp from the Kyoto stone association on a stamped Nakayama stone will always command higher prices for both collect ability as well as a guarantee (for the most part) that the stone will exhibit a certain set of predictable and desirable set of characteristics. 

I would say buying stones with stamps (as long as they're from a trusted source), while more costly, is the right way to go at first so you can establish yardsticks for quality for stones from certain mines and strata. It may be that you need to buy koppa size, or other non symmetrical sizes to save, but that may actually benefit your skill as you're forced to be more conscious of your movements on the smaller or irregular surface area.


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## Smashmasta (Dec 27, 2016)

Nemo said:


> I thought it was a very informative thesis, Smash. To me as a Jnat virgin, anyway. So thanks.
> 
> Obviously I can't comment on the drunken part ;-)
> 
> ...



Re: places to buy:
+1 for Aframes.

Obviously JNS as well. You'll see that the stones tend to be expensive, but again you're paying for quality assurance. See koppa sizes for cheaper options.

Shinichi Watanabe has a decent (but now depleted until Spring) variety and gives decent discounts if you ask politely.

So Yamashita at Japan-tool has a very large collection, but firm prices. He's all about finding you the perfect stone for your needs, so things are a bit more slow going, but you get a custom fit shoe of sorts. He has some stupidly rare and expensive stones that are just out of this world...

Next would be users on this forum. Check BST forum, or PM a member.

Re: a stone to 'pretty up' a knife - do you mean polishing? Kasumi finish? The double edged sword of Jnats is that they are wonderfully variable in the finish they can impart, but that also means that you have to be decently specific in your needs/requests. More info and we can help you more on this.


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## Nemo (Dec 27, 2016)

Smashmasta said:


> Re: a stone to 'pretty up' a knife - do you mean polishing? Kasumi finish? The double edged sword of Jnats is that they are wonderfully variable in the finish they can impart, but that also means that you have to be decently specific in your needs/requests. More info and we can help you more on this.



I guess I hadn't even considered that there is a variation in what finishes these stones can produce, although I did suspect that the answer to my question would be much more complex than the question itself. Thinking about it, it seems obvious now you have pointed it out.

I think what I had in mind was to bring out the lamination line in my soft iron clad kasumi knives, so Iguess that means a kasumi finish?


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## y32dsm (Dec 29, 2016)

Thank you for everyone! Now, I see why. Truly impressed members' knowledge.


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## psfred (Dec 29, 2016)

I will add the following:

None of the mines is currently being worked as far as I know. The time when only natural stones were available for sharpening is long, long gone and the demand for quality natural stones collapsed in favor of synthetic stones well before WWII. Also, the easily worked veins of stone are gone, deep mining is required to get new one, and with minimal demand the mines aren't going to be re-opened. That makes new stones rare, and at least one Japanese seller is working over discards -- perfectly usable, but ugly.

Japanese also value esthetics more than westerners as a rule, so the appearance of a stone can have considerable value even though there isn't much difference in how they work.

Natural stones are variable, and two stones cut from the same vein close together can be quite different. Unlike mixing defined grit and making identical stones, natural stones must be graded by actual use, greatly increasing the cost (or gambling factor if you buy untested ones). 

The "collecting" factor is also a huge influence on price. Yes, people spend large amounts of money to buy things that sit in display cases and are never used just to have them. Stanley Bedrock planes, fountain pens, watches, etc all suffer from this human behavior, it's difficult to get one at a reasonable price for actual use because somone wants the display "all the variations" and has plenty of money. Unused stones with original stamps carry a very hefty price premium, and I can assure you that someone paying for a stamp in water soluble ink is NOT going to put water on the stone and grind off that stamp!

Be careful not to overspend your budget for stones -- Jnats can produce excellent edges, but I'd not go without eating for a month over the difference between that edge and one produced by a synthetic stone.

Peter


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## tgfencer (Dec 29, 2016)

Peter's points are valid. In some ways, high-grade jnats can be likened to the Kato/Shigefusa market, though not quite as unbalanced. Rarity, collectibiity, value, and demand all play their part. Whether a $800-1000 damascus Kato gyuto is necessarily a better or more functional tool than a 200-300 gyuto from other makers is a matter of debate, just like a large, flawless, renge-filled okudo or ohira suita might cost $500-1000 when a 6K-10K synthetic would be much, much cheaper and perform the same basic function (i.e. cutting and sharpening respectively).

As an aside, I do not give much credence to the argument that people shouldn't collect tools they do not use that often turns up on KKF, usually in regards to Kato/Shig/Doi, etc, etc. While I personally don't buy knives and stones I don't intend on using, I am careful not to judge those who have the finances to buy and collect expensive knives/stones/whatever choosing to do so. Its a matter of personal opinion whether or not you think handmade tools should be used like they were intended to be used and I believe its worth noting that some might see equal value in using a blade as others might see in preserving it in its original state. While I have an opinion on it, just like everyone else here I'm sure, it ultimately doesn't affect my enjoyment of my hobby or this forum.

And just by the way, I once met a guy who spent roughly $36,000 collecting a single brand of custom knives (stock removal, not forged) in a little over one year. I thought he was crazy. Just a little perspective that might make some of us feel better about our spending habits...


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## Cashn (Dec 31, 2016)

In regards to the OP, natural stones are a luxury imo. Plenty of synthetics will get your knife sharper than it needs to be, easier,faster and cheaper than nats in a lot of situations. Natural stones to me are an enjoyment and adds a sense of accomplishment to be able to take metal to rock and make something a much better tool. If you do want to try them buy from someone you trust. I've bought most of mine that I use from JNS, I don't know Maxim personally or anything but from what I've read here and talking to him he seems (does) know what he's doing and isn't shady in the least bit. It's a good feeling when you get a first hand description/actual test of what someone "out of the know" would just call a rock and/or brick. It helps to set the standard of what to expect from jnats when you get your first stone with as much info as possible. There is no manual, just a trust that you bought a usable stone and you have to figure out its little quirks. Just my 2 cents. I've listened to and respect a lot of the more knowledgeable people on these forums and what they have to say about nats but it doesn't mean much when you've never tried one.


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## Jacob_x (Jan 6, 2017)

psfred said:


> Be careful not to overspend your budget for stones -- Jnats can produce excellent edges, but I'd not go without eating for a month over the difference between that edge and one produced by a synthetic stone.



wish somebody had told me this before, getting pretty hungry...


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