# Carbon Steel vs Stainless steel Lavine says



## andrew44 (Apr 5, 2015)

I recently got the knife expert Bernard Lavine's Guide to knives 

in it I read this and its made me think why is carbon seem to be more sought after and valuable? 

"modern stainless steel knives, when properly sharpened, are superior in use to all older knives, even the very best. Stainless steel can be made at least as sharp as carbon steel, they stary sharp longer & do not stain" 
"they are more interesting to collect, but anyone who thinks they are better and modern stainless is fooling himself"

do most people feel that way?


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## gic (Apr 5, 2015)

No, and I say that as someone who truly loves his Devin in AEB-L,

Devin and a few other knife makers can, for example, make AEB-L that can be as sharp as white or super blue, but even Devin's AEB-L isn't as easy to sharpen as white or super blue (although it isn't *that* hard to sharpen it well...)


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## daveb (Apr 5, 2015)

Gather up the women and children and lock all the doors. Chinacats is coming....


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## designdog (Apr 5, 2015)

This reminds me of the old school technique demonstrations you see at Sur la Table every weekend. 

First, define "superior." Yes, my Devin and Ealy in AEB-L can be as sharp as any of my carbon knives, they do not stain, and they probably keep an edge longer.

They are also harder to sharpen (just), do not interact very well with Japanese natural stones, and just don't feel as organic as my carbon knives.

You are going to spend a bunch of money to get a SS knife that performs as well as a much less expensive, and prettier, carbon one.


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## shownomarci (Apr 5, 2015)

Well, you can either believe this or get yourself a few decent knives made out of SS and high carbon steels and feel the difference.


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## Adrian (Apr 5, 2015)

This is a daft debate. It is a bit like saying that blondes are better than brunettes and that redheads are best of all. I have numerous carbon of various steels and numerous SS of various formulations. They are just different. Each has pros and cons. We can enjoy both. We can learn to use, sharpen and appreciate both. They are after all just tools.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Apr 5, 2015)

Adrian said:


> This is a daft debate. It is a bit like saying that blondes are better than brunettes and that redheads are best of all. I have numerous carbon of various steels and numerous SS of various formulations. They are just different. Each has pros and cons. We can enjoy both. We can learn to use, sharpen and appreciate both. They are after all just tools.



Blablalba. Just admit that blondes are better!


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## chinacats (Apr 5, 2015)

daveb said:


> Gather up the women and children and lock all the doors. Chinacats is coming....



:lol2:

I've got nothing to add other than to question who the **** is Bernard Lavine?


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## brainsausage (Apr 5, 2015)

chinacats said:


> :lol2:
> 
> I've got nothing to add other than to question who the **** is Bernard Lavine?



He (presumably) wrote a book, so he's obviously an expert.


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## labor of love (Apr 5, 2015)

andrew44 said:


> I recently got the knife expert Bernard Lavine's Guide to knives
> 
> in it I read this and its made me think why is carbon seem to be more sought after and valuable?
> 
> ...



I would prefer modern jknives made with swedish stainless, skd, ginsanko etc etc...over vintage french, german, and US carbons for sure. No right or wrong answer I suppose.


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 5, 2015)

Speaking of the best knife metal, did Del ever finish that brass blade he was WIPing?


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## gic (Apr 5, 2015)

Let's consider knives under $250 for example, so mass market knives, not semi-customs like a Devin ITK. 

If one likes the profile (I do) then the Kramer in what is probably AEB-L or for a more standard profile, the Gesshin Ginga are about as good as it gets, they are about $250. The Carbonext sucks out of box but sharpens pretty well - if you know how to do it. It is roughly half the price ($128) of the stainless ones I mentioned and is certainly a rather nice semi stainless. The Masihiro in virgin carbon is a wonderful knife IMHO, has pretty good F&F and even a reasonable edge OOB and I just bought another one on Rakuten global delivered for a bit under $100 (and then there is the Misono dragon which cost roughly what the carbonext does when ordered from Japan.)

So it seems to me to get a stainless roughly of the same quality as a semi-stainless you are talking twice as much and closer to 2.5X than a carbon of the same quality.... 

And carbons sharpen *much* easier than AEB-L or even the carbonext. Sometimes I start thinking all I have to do is show my dragon the finishing stone and it is razor sharp


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## gic (Apr 5, 2015)

LaborOfLove over a nice forgie?

shame, shame :biggrin:


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## panda (Apr 5, 2015)

heck stainless. that being said, i would still rather use modern stainless than old carbon, 'nice' and 'forgie' dont belong in same sentence.


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## tim37 (Apr 5, 2015)

Why are you still beating this dead horse? Some of us prefer high end stainless and some of you prefer mid end carbon. I won't call you an old foggie if you don't call me stupid. End of discussion. Move on.

Tim


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## chinacats (Apr 5, 2015)

tim37 said:


> Why are you still beating this dead horse? Some of us prefer high end stainless and some of you prefer mid end carbon. I won't call you an old foggie if you don't call me stupid. End of discussion. Move on.
> 
> Tim



OK, but you're the one who equates high end stainless with mid-grade carbon  

And that sounds about right to me...look, nothing wrong with nice stainless (if you for some reason require it) but it just doesn't compare...let alone as the book suggests that it is better:scratchhead:

And feel free to call me an old fogie...not so sure about Panda:lol2:

I should mention that my one real piece of stainless is finally starting to take on the prettiest blue patina on the cladding:O


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## daveb (Apr 5, 2015)

chinacats said:


> I should mention that my one real piece of stainless is finally starting to take on the prettiest blue patina on the cladding:O



What a coincidence. My Shig is finally starting to lose the ugly yellow/orange after cutting an onion last month:cool2: Did I mention how much I hate the smell of BKF?


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## andrew44 (Apr 5, 2015)

brainsausage said:


> He (presumably) wrote a book, so he's obviously an expert.



unfortunately there is only 1 chapter on kitchen knives. 
also he states he's owned 10,000 antique kitchen & butcher knives 

here is his website http://www.knife-expert.com/


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## Ruso (Apr 6, 2015)

I am definitely not an expert but: 
1. Based on many readings including this forum it appears that modern stainless including PM is objectively superior to any carbon in most of the applications.
2. From my personal experience with several of each I tend to agree with the point 1
3. My next knife will be carbon and most likely iron clad


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## wind88 (Apr 6, 2015)

Nothing beats the patina developed on carbon knives


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## Marcelo Amaral (Apr 7, 2015)

I find the retention of blue super pretty good. There may be a modern stainless steel that beats it regarding edge retention, but the combo sharpness/edge retention of a well treated blue super kitchen knife is amazing in my opinion. Like R2 and aeb-l as a modern stainless representatives, but haven't used them long enough to assess them though. So far they are very nice, but i'm a carbon guy.


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## Noodle Soup (Apr 7, 2015)

That is pretty funny asking who Bernard is.  If you were on a couple of other cutlery forums you would get chopped off at the knees for not respecting the "all knowing one." His fans have no time for those that don't agree with him. I'll be seeing him at the Eugene show in a couple of days which always makes for an interesting conversation. 
As for stainless versus carbon, it seems to me the sharpening skills and equipment of the individual evaluating the knives is probably just as important as the steel.


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## panda (Apr 9, 2015)

What the hell's an old foggie?


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## daveb (Apr 9, 2015)

panda said:


> What the hell's an old foggie?



Well you've got the move to Florida part checked off. Now wait 40 years are you'll be one.


Where in S Fla btw?


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## panda (Apr 9, 2015)

Palm beach


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## mkriggen (Apr 9, 2015)

Adrian said:


> This is a daft debate. It is a bit like saying that blondes are better than brunettes and that redheads are best of all. I have numerous carbon of various steels and numerous SS of various formulations. They are just different. Each has pros and cons. We can enjoy both. We can learn to use, sharpen and appreciate both. They are after all just tools.



Of course it's a daft debate...RED HEADS ROCK!

ahem...just my opinion of course


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## andrew44 (Apr 19, 2015)

Noodle Soup said:


> That is pretty funny asking who Bernard is.  If you were on a couple of other cutlery forums you would get chopped off at the knees for not respecting the "all knowing one." His fans have no time for those that don't agree with him. I'll be seeing him at the Eugene show in a couple of days which always makes for an interesting conversation.
> As for stainless versus carbon, it seems to me the sharpening skills and equipment of the individual evaluating the knives is probably just as important as the steel.



interesting conversation > how did it go? 
yeah for an expert I'm dissapointed he's only published 1 chapter on kitchen knives


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 19, 2015)

Went to a knife show today mostly Tactical & Hunting blades. I doubt that many of these knives are ever used in the field. 400.00 to 3,000 per knife on those tables.

Brunettes:whistling:

I agree with a lot of Chad Wards observations, but his statement about Carbon knives not as good as Stainless in production kitchens is hearsay not experience. Carbons work well when used a lot, easy to sharpen, take a fine edge. When I switched to carbons in 1982 the best stainless in my experience at the time were Forschners. Using Japan carbons my Forschners collected dust.

Now retired I have more quality stainless. My carbons do not do well at all sitting around not being used for hours a day. Have a couple Japanese stainless cleavers I like a lot. Thinned the crap out of my SRS-15 gyuto. That steel will get as sharp as you want to take it. 

Still have a weakness for Handforged Japanese carbon kitchen knives:happymug:


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## Noodle Soup (Apr 25, 2015)

Andrew and Keith. Bernard only published one chapter on kitchen cutlery and the show was mostly tactical and hunting (I know most of those makers on a first name basis) for the simple reason the average knife collector could care less about kitchen cutlery. More than one has told me they see cooking as just "women's work." I've laid out a table full of the best in kitchen cutlery only to find the few that even stopped to look seemed to think you should toss them all in a big box with a sign saying "your choice, 50 cents each!"


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## LKH9 (Apr 26, 2015)

Noodle Soup said:


> Andrew and Keith. Bernard only published one chapter on kitchen cutlery and the show was mostly tactical and hunting (I know most of those makers on a first name basis) for the simple reason the average knife collector could care less about kitchen cutlery. More than one has told me they see cooking as just "women's work." I've laid out a table full of the best in kitchen cutlery only to find the few that even stopped to look seemed to think you should toss them all in a big box with a sign saying "your choice, 50 cents each!"



Put a 360mm Yanagiba in the middle of all the kitchen knives and see if any one reacts to it.:knife: I think size matters there.

I don't get the point of "tactical" knives. You want to chop wood/tree, a small axe does the job better, clearing a bush, a machete does way better, and they are very cheap and almost disposable. A sharp machete can even be used to kill and skin an animal, they just need to know how to sharpen stuff.

Those 'tactical' stuff are just cool looking.


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## Noodle Soup (Apr 26, 2015)

And the guys buying knives at cutlery shows seldom use their blades for anything. Most just like having them and thinking they are "ready" if the balloon goes up. And others flip them at the first chance to make a little extra money. Not one in a thousand would know what a yanagiba is or how to use it.


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## daveb (Apr 26, 2015)

LKH9 said:


> A sharp machete can even be used to kill and skin an animal, ....



Add killing, cleaning and skinning an animal to the list of things you don't seem to know anything about. Sneaking up on a coconut is not the same thing...:cool2:

And welcome back.


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## LKH9 (Apr 27, 2015)

daveb said:


> Add killing, cleaning and skinning an animal to the list of things you don't seem to know anything about. Sneaking up on a coconut is not the same thing...:cool2:
> 
> And welcome back.



The wild boar hunters over here do everything with machetes, you got a problem with that? That conflicts with your opinion again? And, would you stop that childish 'coconut' behaviour already? You love killing coconuts? Still trying to pick fights with every single chance you got?

Wait.., I can't answer back, you're the Moderator, no one can control you here and I risk being banned if I say the wrong word to you. Because you are the God moderator, sOrry


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## daveb (Apr 27, 2015)

I like coconuts.


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## ThEoRy (Apr 27, 2015)

I like turtles.


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## andrew44 (Apr 27, 2015)

Noodle Soup said:


> And the guys buying knives at cutlery shows seldom use their blades for anything. Most just like having them and thinking they are "ready" if the balloon goes up. And others flip them at the first chance to make a little extra money. Not one in a thousand would know what a yanagiba is or how to use it.



lol zombie attack ready!


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## andrew44 (Apr 27, 2015)

Noodle Soup said:


> Andrew and Keith. Bernard only published one chapter on kitchen cutlery and the show was mostly tactical and hunting (I know most of those makers on a first name basis) for the simple reason the average knife collector could care less about kitchen cutlery. More than one has told me they see cooking as just "women's work." I've laid out a table full of the best in kitchen cutlery only to find the few that even stopped to look seemed to think you should toss them all in a big box with a sign saying "your choice, 50 cents each!"



yeah it's disappointing to me there isn't more published information to be found on kitchen cutlery 
I started saving pictures from old hardware catalogs that sold knives to build up a "reference database" 
maybe one day it will become more popular? 
Japanese probably appreciate kitchen cutlery a whole lot more than Americans


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## chinacats (Apr 27, 2015)

andrew44 said:


> Japanese probably appreciate kitchen cutlery a whole lot more than Americans



I doubt it


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 28, 2015)

There are a lot of good cooks on this forum at least you can make dinner with a fine kitchen knife. A 1,500.00 Tactical blade you can go out and get dinner:viking:


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## harlock0083 (Apr 29, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> I like turtles.



Alright, you're great zombie.

[video=youtube;CMNry4PE93Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y[/video]


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