# Introduction and Shun Kaji



## nsbrown93 (Oct 27, 2017)

Hi Everyone. New here and just entering into this world inspired by my dad growing up. Trying to get a basic start without spending much at all. I just bought a 3 piece sora set (8 inch chefs, steel, and block) which was awesome when I first got it. Then once my dad found out he started dumping all his extra knives on me haha, one of which was the 8 inch Shun Kaji chefs knife. It seems kind of pointless to have the Sora now given that I can still return it (although I do really like the knife block). Does anyone have thoughts on the Kaji knife? I know it's expensive, but I can barely find any information and reviews/thoughts on it. The other option is to try to sell the Kaji to put towards other basic start up stuff, but I don't know how well used knives like that sell. Also it says Cobalt MV steel on it, but another post on the forum said it should still be SG2.

I also was given the Shun 300/1000 combination whetstone which I actually used to sharpen the Kaji I'd say reasonably successfully (not cutting paper to cutting paper).

I got just a cheap Amazon breadknife as well. Still haven't gotten a paring knife although I haven't felt the need for one yet. Dad also gave me a Shun classic utility knife and a Shun classic sashimi knife.

Open to unrelated suggestions as well / other things I should look in to. Really just trying to get into this in the most cost-effective (yet stylish perhaps) way possible.


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## nsbrown93 (Nov 4, 2017)

bump. Sorry took awhile to get first post approval.


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## nsbrown93 (Nov 4, 2017)

bump. Sorry took awhile for the first post to get approved.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Nov 4, 2017)

Welcome to KKF.

The Shun Kaji utility knife I have has "SG2 Clad" printed on it, along with the name, "Kaji". Are your sure you have a Kaji? 

The Kaji, if I remember correctly, was an exclusive to Williams Sonoma, so that may explain the lack of reviews. 

Depending on condition, expect to get no more than 50 to 70% of the price listed on the Williams Sonoma website.


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## ThEoRy (Nov 4, 2017)

Kaji is definitely SG2/R2 which is a powdered stainless steel. I'll be that guy who says you can do much better than Shun for the money though. I feel you are just paying for the marketing of the brand name. 

Let us know what you are looking for exactly with budget requirements etc by filling out the "Which knife should I buy?" questionnaire. That'll get you started.


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## mikaelsan (Nov 5, 2017)

I would personally consider it a great possibility to a free introduction to Japanese knives and stones, use it for a while and see what you think about it. You can always sell it later.

Don't get me wrong the whole shun thing is a major turn off for me as well, if much rather have something cool handmade, most likely better performing, with a wa handle, but the possibility to start off with a powdered steel sounds nice


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 5, 2017)

I think this forum considers Takamura and Shibata the masters of SG2 ... and some of them can be had in the same price range


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## crlums (Nov 5, 2017)

If you can still return the set of Soras for full refund I would do that. Then you can use the Shun Kaji (or whatever it is) as a free intro to JKnives and sharpening and when you're ready you can put your money towards something where you pay mostly for the knife and less for the name brand.

There's nothing wrong with starting with shun's. I'm pretty knew and started with a Miyabi that I still use, but this forum is great at helping you find options with better craftsmanship at lower prices than the big name brands.


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## nsbrown93 (Nov 5, 2017)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions! I'm going towards what crlums said which is to sell the Sora set and use the Kaji. I've also seen elsewhere here that Shuns aren't the best for the money. However if you consider that I have the Kaji for free and can probably only get like 50% value for it max if I sell it (its got some cosmetic dings on the side) then it's probably a pretty good value for the quality despite being Shun.

That leaves me without a knife block and a honing steel though. From what I've read all honing steels are essentially equivalent, is that correct or are their tiers? For the knife block I might try the magnetic strip option that a lot of people seem to go with here. 

BTW I pretty well confirmed in this thread that the Kaji is definitely SG2 despite the label; my last link to Facebook is confirmation straight from Shun it was just a labeling error: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...un-Kaji-Santoku-7-quot-Cobalt-MV-Steel-vs-SG2.


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## nsbrown93 (Nov 5, 2017)

Oh another thing I considered too is that it seems to me like the Kaji would be a better companion profile-wise for learning cutting technique. The Sora chefs knives have a bit of a non-standard profile to them. Didn't want that to get me into any bad habits if that's actually possible.


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## Nemo (Nov 5, 2017)

nsbrown93 said:


> From what I've read all honing steels are essentially equivalent, is that correct or are their tiers?



Honing steels are not all equivalent. Avoid the ridged or diamond crusted ones. A smooth steel or a fine ceramic rod is a good option for home use ON SOFT WESTERN STAINLESS.

I advise against using a honing rod on your Japanese style knives at all (some people use them in an emergency on the line). They will likely cause microchipping. Use the knives until they lose a bit of their keeness then sharpen them. A light strop in between sharpenings will usually refresh the edge.


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## crlums (Nov 5, 2017)

I agree with Nemo's advice on the steels. They do well on softer steels where you can realign the edge but that doesn't work with harder steels and you risk microchipping. I would just skip the honing steel on the shun. They're perfectly good on softer western knives though. I would just stick with the 1000 grit side of your whetstone for your sharpening needs.

If sharpening is a skill you're working to improve I highly recommend these free videos from Jon and Peter Nowlan (https://www.knifeplanet.net/knife-sharpening-school-online-course/). The whole thing is great but parts one and two and the main ones you need. There are many garbage sharpening videos on youtube but these two are pro's and take it step by step from the beginning.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 6, 2017)

Yes... strop on a newspaper, if that isn't enough strop on crox, if that doesn't work use a finishing stone (raise no burr though!) then strop again, if finishing stone work needed was heavy enough to do raise a burr, go soak a sharpening stone... constantly sharpening in full can make your knife thick quickly unless you always integrate some thinning routine..


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## nsbrown93 (Nov 6, 2017)

Hm replied yesterday, but maybe it didn't post. Thanks very much everyone, I wouldn't have known that regarding the steel and stroping. 

Thanks also for the sharpening videos. I was wondering what good sources were. I was previously watching Burrfection on youtube which I guess isn't a super favorite here.


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## Nemo (Nov 6, 2017)

It's also worth looking at Jon's JKI sharpening series.


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## merlijny2k (Nov 7, 2017)

Ryky is indeed not a favourite here but his sharpening isn't so bad. He just doesn't know all the tricks, plays it on the safe side but it's not like its wrong or anything.


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## nsbrown93 (Nov 7, 2017)

Sounds good. A little confused now on the strop due to LifeBy's answer. Should I buy a leather strop or use something like the newspaper around the house? I had previously tried using a microfiber cloth sample from my couch, but it was tiny and hard to get a decent stroke on.


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## mikaelsan (Nov 7, 2017)

Previous advice is good. I would not worry too much about how you finish, just go through a simple process on your 1000 grit only if your still new to it.
raise a burr, ease up the pressure and use your senses to remove it again. you can feel it with your fingers when you run your fingers across it, and hear it as well, you can see it when you look straight down on the edge under sharp light the burr reflects back, when you have as little of this as possible you have removed the burr or at least most of it. 

Then you can always experiment with stropping on leather newsprint or whatever

I sadly don't know how to taste for the burr not smell for it, maybe the true masters of sharpening can do this


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 7, 2017)

@nsbrown93 newsprint on the counter is practically free to try. And it can restore tomato capability or arm hair shaving in seconds if used at roughly the right angle (the one you sharpened with) if the edge is sharp but bent... hanging razor strops are usually not recommended here (have none) due to the convexing effect. a balsa board, plain or with compound, is also quite effective.


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## Boynutman (Nov 7, 2017)

One thing about that Shun 300/1000 combi stone. I have the same, but the 300 side is afwul. After the recommended soak it just crumbles and sand-like pieces come loose and scratch the blade. I would avoid using that side.
I do like the 1000 side, soft and muddy, quite effective, and a nice feel, at least in my (limited) experience.


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## Benuser (Nov 7, 2017)

Boynutman said:


> One thing about that Shun 300/1000 combi stone. I have the same, but the 300 side is afwul. After the recommended soak it just crumbles and sand-like pieces come loose and scratch the blade. I would avoid using that side.
> I do like the 1000 side, soft and muddy, quite effective, and a nice feel, at least in my (limited) experience.



Have used it and agree. The coarse side seems to scratch without removing much steel -- if that were possible. The 1000 is quite fast and enjoyable.


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## Razor (Nov 7, 2017)

I am so confused. Is this a what knife do I want thread? - or how do I sharpen the knife I already have thread? It seems you already have the Shun chef so congrats. It is not an easy knife to sharpen so take your time and don't use pressure. Don't even think about putting it on the 300 side of the Shun stone. Soak the 1000 side only (shallow dish) and only use it. You might want to paint the sides of the stone with acrylic to keep it from soaking too much water. You only need water soaking the top of the 1k side. Then follow Jon's JNI video's and enjoy. Also focus on your board and board techniques. Hard boards and bad techniques eat fine edges for breakfast. Also get some 400 grit wet dry sandpaper and use it on a hard flat surface to keep the stone flat.


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## ThEoRy (Nov 7, 2017)

Razor said:


> Soak the 1000 side only (shallow dish) and only use it. You might want to paint the sides of the stone with acrylic to keep it from soaking too much water. You only need water soaking the top of the 1k side.



I'll disagree with these statements. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think there is such a thing as soaking in too much water. It's either fully soaked or it's not. You want it fully soaked. 

In fact Shun recommends that you "thoroughly soak the whetstone before sharpening." Not partially. Thoroughly. 

Unless you are talking about splash and go stones. Which we are not. 

Also don't think soaking only half the stone is good either. 

I don't have that stone personally but one of my former employees had it so I don't remember if there is a barrier between the stones besides the glue. If water soaks through one side to the other, when you dry it out it will be drying unevenly. That can cause cracking. 

So what exactly is the purpose of only partially soaking half the stone?

When we soaked it at work it only took a few minutes. It worked better when fully soaked. And it dried evenly so it never cracked. 

So what gives?


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## nsbrown93 (Nov 8, 2017)

@Razor A bit of both. I'm just trying to generally get a sense of things which apparently is leading to a lot of conversation haha. I'm learning a lot from all of the general discussion though 

I've been using the 300 side when I sharpened each knife and it seemed to do fine, but obviously I'm not the expert. Yeah it breaks off and forms a slurry, but that's the whole point. And yeah obviously it's not the smoothest finish and that's what the higher grit stones are for. The recommended sharpening resources all mention 400 grits which is similar.


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## ThEoRy (Nov 8, 2017)

You only need to use the 300 grit side when doing fast metal removal like major chip repairs, wide bevel flattening, thinning or bevel resetting. Typically you want to remove as little metal as is needed. Most double bevel sharpening I do starts at 5000 grit for touch ups or 1k then 5k for standard sharpening.


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## rick alen (Nov 8, 2017)

Shuns are lousy stones in my experience, I have the 1K/6K, the 6K I think being a little on the optimistic side as I have used 5K stones that left a much finer finish. Full of all kinds of inclusions. Soaked for 30min and they become real soft and muddy, 15-20 is about right. 6min is good for doing light stropping-stroke touch ups.

Watch for any inclusions and dig them out when you find them. Aside from bits the size of large sand, mine also occasionally shed what appear to be bindig-fibers. I'll rinse these away as they make unpleasnt [damaging] kind of sounds, and interfere with fine edge making.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 8, 2017)

The nasty thing about sketchy coarse sides on combination stones: you can't even use them as a flattener for the useable fine side


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## daveb (Nov 8, 2017)

Well you could, but you would have to flip it very fast[emoji41]


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## nsbrown93 (Nov 9, 2017)

Got it. Yeah there was originally chips in two of the blades so the coarse side came in handy. Definitely makes sense to use the fine side from here on out.

Sora was sent back today. Will continue on with the Kaji. I also go a Joyce Chen Usuba type knife which is an interesting style and I was able to get pretty sharp. 

Thank you so much for the help everyone. Learned a lot.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 9, 2017)

@daveb "flip it very fast" if you can is indeed my impression about OEM stones of any ilk after trying a few OEMs as well as a few Naniwa/King/Euronats...


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## Razor (Nov 9, 2017)

Boynutman said:


> One thing about that Shun 300/1000 combi stone. I have the same, but the 300 side is afwul. After the recommended soak it just crumbles and sand-like pieces come loose and scratch the blade. I would avoid using that side.
> I do like the 1000 side, soft and muddy, quite effective, and a nice feel, at least in my (limited) experience.



Precisely why I suggested only soaking the 1k side. The 300 side soaks water at a different rate and becomes too soft. This was my first stone and even though it made learning more difficult than it should be, I found a way to make the 1k side work without having the whole stone come apart. The 1k side does not need to be soaked like a sponge, just soak for a while and then continue to add water. The acrylic on the side of the stone kept the 300 side from separating from the 1k side. I gave the stone away last year to a neighbor and it is still working.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 9, 2017)

Leaving the stone half-immersed in a shallow container while doing the coarse work, then taking it out once you get to do the 1000 work could help...


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## richard (Nov 12, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Welcome to KKF.
> 
> The Shun Kaji utility knife I have has "SG2 Clad" printed on it, along with the name, "Kaji". Are your sure you have a Kaji?
> 
> ...



On some of the first batches of Shun SG2 knives, they still printed Cobalt MV steel (what they used to label VG10) on the left side...the blade is undoubtedly SG2, just the text is incorrect.


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## rick alen (Nov 13, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> Kaji is definitely SG2/R2 which is a powdered stainless steel. I'll be that guy who says you can do much better than Shun for the money though. I feel you are just paying for the marketing of the brand name.
> 
> Let us know what you are looking for exactly with budget requirements etc by filling out the "Which knife should I buy?" questionnaire. That'll get you started.




Ahahaha, just have to bring this one up. There is a clown that hangs out on another knife forum, you know the kind of pathological liar who has to pretend to be an expert at everything and, quite perfectly, even the guys initials spell "BS." No matter how big a fool he is shown to be, he will still pop up regularly to say how he feels his Shun Premiers are a good value, along with other inane and otherwise worthless bits.


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## ThEoRy (Nov 13, 2017)

rick alen said:


> Ahahaha, just have to bring this one up. There is a clown that hangs out on another knife forum, you know the kind of pathological liar who has to pretend to be an expert at everything and, quite perfectly, even the guys initials spell "BS." No matter how big a fool he is shown to be, he will still pop up regularly to say how he feels his Shun Premiers are a good value, along with other inane and otherwise worthless bits.



I had an employee like that. 

"Shun is just the best bro!" 

"But why is it the best?"

"Because it's the best bro!"

"You're fired."


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Nov 13, 2017)

@TheOry well, it's rather like people who say "xyz is the best band", of a band that is actually good. They're not utterly wrong (about the band being good) even though they are narrow minded/complacent. However, I understand the aftertaste it leaves ... like raving Slipknot-only fans that wonder why people think "you're into music that has a strong, violent message. You are narrow minded and complacent about being so. A combination I will not trust right away because if it leads to bad judgement, it will be industrial grade bad judgement."


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