# New Kramer Auction



## deanb (Mar 24, 2014)

Just got an email from Bob Kramer announcing an auction that ends on Wednesday at 11:00 A.M. The knife is a 10" chef's in Pulsar Mosaic Damascus with a snake wood handle. Man, I sure wish I could afford to make a competitive bid.


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## Fran Rendina (Mar 24, 2014)

It is a real beauty,


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## BJE1 (Mar 24, 2014)

I just looked it is a beauty. It's already at $12,100 with two days to go. Wonder how high this one will make it.


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## Ruso (Mar 24, 2014)

where do you see this?


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## BJE1 (Mar 24, 2014)

Kramer sends out an e mail and you can go to his site but you have to be a member to see the auction page.


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## Anton (Mar 24, 2014)

at those prices, there's got to be a secret Kramer "club" of sorts. Crazy


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## James (Mar 24, 2014)

the first rule of kramer club is that you do not talk about kramer club


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## rami_m (Mar 24, 2014)

Newbie question. How much are his normal customs? How long is the wait list and most importantly are they worth it? I can't afford it atm but who knows how thing are in a couple of years


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## brainsausage (Mar 24, 2014)

Considering that his ready mades go for 15,000 and above- I'm guessing you'd need something beyond that to get his attention. I follow him on Instagram, and he just seems to travel constantly and hang out with knife makers across the world. Why bother with making what somebody else wants, when you can bang out a knife every few months, get some residuals from having your name on a couple mass produced knives, and live free and easy?


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## rami_m (Mar 24, 2014)

Wow, are the waiting list lottery thing on his website for his ready made??? I honestly thought the auction prices are for the rich buggers who can't wait. But you can wait a bit and get it cheaper.


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 24, 2014)

I don't understand what makes his knives so special that warrants that kind of price tag? I don't find them all that appealing but maybe I'm missing something.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 24, 2014)

What a beaut. It's an honor to use his knives everyday.


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## rami_m (Mar 24, 2014)

All the luck to you mate. I can't see myself spending that much on a knife.


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## brainsausage (Mar 25, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> I don't understand what makes his knives so special that warrants that kind of price tag? I don't find them all that appealing but maybe I'm missing something.



I agree, regarding the aesthetics. I've heard they cut great, but that could be another example of the Emperor's clothes...


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 25, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> I don't understand what makes his knives so special that warrants that kind of price tag? I don't find them all that appealing but maybe I'm missing something.



Are they worth that price? Hell no. It's not hard to understand though, capitalism 101: Supply/demand determines price.

ETA: Those that can afford these knives live by different rules than us common folk. Once again though, not hard to understand. While we think it's crazy to pay that, how many of your friends/family/coworkers think it's crazy to spend a couple of hundred dollars on your current knives? Same concept, just at a level more than you make.


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## brainsausage (Mar 25, 2014)

Hooray for capitalism!


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## knyfeknerd (Mar 25, 2014)

Bob's the king. Good for him. I would love to have one.
I'd use and abuse the hell out of it every day, just like I do to my Raders!


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 25, 2014)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for capitalism, I'm just wondering _why_ someone would pay that much. What differentiates his knives from everyone else's. Admittedly, I don't know much about him other than his knives are uber expensive and a guy on top chef won one of them a couple of seasons ago lol.


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## rami_m (Mar 25, 2014)

I know even less. Are they really worth 15k.


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 25, 2014)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Are they worth that price? Hell no. It's not hard to understand though, capitalism 101: Supply/demand determines price.
> 
> ETA: Those that can afford these knives live by different rules than us common folk. Once again though, not hard to understand. While we think it's crazy to pay that, how many of your friends/family/coworkers think it's crazy to spend a couple of hundred dollars on your current knives? Same concept, just at a level more than you make.



True, I've often gotten that wide eyed "girl you're crazy" look but, when I take out any of mine and show them it really doesn't have to take 10 min to chop up some rosemary and you really don't have to saw an onion, they understand better. Unless it was a light saber, I don't think I could ever spend a half years salary on a kitchen knife.



ETA: how are you liking the new base?


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 25, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> True, I've often gotten that wide eyed "girl you're crazy" look but, when I take out any of mine and show them it really doesn't have to take 10 min to chop up some rosemary and you really don't have to saw an onion, they understand better. Unless it was a light saber, I don't think I could ever spend a half years salary on a kitchen knife.
> 
> 
> 
> ETA: how are you liking the new base?



I just got to Travis a week ago. Very nice area, nice weather friendly people. They like to tax for everything here, I will be poor the entire tour. I bought a case of water today and was taxed $1.20 for a bottle fee on a $3.99 purchase. I don't get it. Second observation is that everyone lives on top of each other, despite having tons of open farm land. I was warned about California. I visited Napa and Sonoma this past weekend, a very beautiful and rememberable experience. It's gonna take some time to grow on me, but then again I just loved Colorado.


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## Matus (Mar 25, 2014)

Bob Kramer seems to be a rare example of a person who is not only a master in his craft (I do not doubt his knives are excellent based on what I have read), but also managed to find his way to high end collectors and cash them heavily. Few modern painters manage to sell a painting in a good gallery for what Bob can charge for a knife via his website. That tells a lot IMO. My hat if off to Bob (even if I would never spend this money for a knife).


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## rami_m (Mar 25, 2014)

Matus said:


> Bob Kramer seems to be a rare example of a person who is not only a master in his craft (I do not doubt his knives are excellent based on what I have read), but also managed to find his way to high end collectors and cash them heavily. Few modern painters manage to sell a painting in a good gallery for what Bob can charge for a knife via his website. That tells a lot IMO. My hat if off to Bob (even if I would never spend this money for a knife).



So what's your dream knife? The one you will consider spending on?


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 25, 2014)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I just got to Travis a week ago. Very nice area, nice weather friendly people. They like to tax for everything here, I will be poor the entire tour. I bought a case of water today and was taxed $1.20 for a bottle fee on a $3.99 purchase. I don't get it. Second observation is that everyone lives on top of each other, despite having tons of open farm land. I was warned about California. I visited Napa and Sonoma this past weekend, a very beautiful and rememberable experience. It's gonna take some time to grow on me, but then again I just loved Colorado.



The $1.20 is a bottle deposit so don't throw away the bottles!! Once you've accumulated a few bags, take them to the recycling center to cash them in. Check your bottles for the CA CRV 5c before you recycle it. We are gonna be up that way this summer for my husbands LASIK surgery. You'll have to let me know where the good places to go are lol.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 25, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> The $1.20 is a bottle deposit so don't throw away the bottles!! Once you've accumulated a few bags, take them to the recycling center to cash them in. Check your bottles for the CA CRV 5c before you recycle it. We are gonna be up that way this summer for my husbands LASIK surgery. You'll have to let me know where the good places to go are lol.



Thanks for the tip!


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 25, 2014)

Matus said:


> Bob Kramer seems to be a rare example of a person who is not only a master in his craft (I do not doubt his knives are excellent based on what I have read), but also managed to find his way to high end collectors and cash them heavily. Few modern painters manage to sell a painting in a good gallery for what Bob can charge for a knife via his website. That tells a lot IMO. My hat if off to Bob (even if I would never spend this money for a knife).



I don't doubt he produces a great knife, even if I don't find them aesthetically pleasing I'm sure they are good cutters. How he marketed his brand and craft to garner the prices his knives command is intriguing.


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## rami_m (Mar 25, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> I don't doubt he produces a great knife, even if I don't find them aesthetically pleasing I'm sure they are good cutters. How he marketed his brand and craft to garner the prices his knives command is intriguing.



Same question as before which knifes would you like to have. Money is no object?


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 25, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> I don't doubt he produces a great knife, even if I don't find them aesthetically pleasing I'm sure they are good cutters. How he marketed his brand and craft to garner the prices his knives command is intriguing.



I'm a big fan of Carter knives. I love my Rodrigue. I could get major bucks for my Kramers; they feel just right in the hand, no way the money is worth it. Some things just need to be tried.


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 25, 2014)

rami_m said:


> Same question as before which knifes would you like to have. Money is no object?



I honestly don't know. I'm still on a quest to find a gyuto that feels right to me. Even if I could afford any knife out there, I don't think I could undo almost 40 years of thriftiness and drop that kind of money on a kitchen knife by anyone.


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 25, 2014)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I'm a big fan of Carter knives. I love my Rodrigue. I could get major bucks for my Kramers; they feel just right in the hand, no way the money is worth it. Some things just need to be tried.



I haven't handled any of those but Pierre does make some beautiful eye candy. I think all our knife makers here do.


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## orangehero (Mar 25, 2014)

[video=youtube;5T8Gxk7vbec]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T8Gxk7vbec[/video]


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## labor of love (Mar 25, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> I don't understand what makes his knives so special that warrants that kind of price tag? I don't find them all that appealing but maybe I'm missing something.



Im pretty sure the costs are based on supply and demand. For every kramer knife that sells for 15k theres a mob of people waiting to buy it. Its just a well made knife, made with attention to detail. Theres no reason to believe it cuts any better than a knife that may retail between $400-800. Besides usually the commentary on kramers are about aesthetic things or how stunning they are visually. Ive never heard it discussed how good the grinds are or how thin behind the edge kramers are, edge retention, ease of sharpening or anything else like that. Im not saying kramers dont have good grinds etc etc etc. but i think the price tag most likely reflects some of the labor thats probably much more expensive than other knives to produce and not superior performance.


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## panda (Mar 25, 2014)

just seems like another cut brooklyn on a bigger stage to me.


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## Ruso (Mar 25, 2014)

I was reading this post and was thinking exactly same what panda said.
Some people are artists and they apply their art to the knife making instead of canvas. And good art cost lots of money. Usually art is not bought/judged based on it usefulness.


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## Matus (Mar 25, 2014)

rami_m said:


> So what's your dream knife? The one you will consider spending on?



I am not sure I have a dream knife in the true sense of the word - but western Rader with integral bolster (or an integral outdoor knife from Burt Foster) would be close to the top for me. But I would not go beyond 1000 for a knife and will probably stay at around half of that because I do not perceive much gain in value beyond that point even if theoretically I could spend more without putting the economical safety of my family into jeopardy (but probably risking a divorce  )

Is was mentioned before - based purely on the performance there is probably not much to gain beyond $800 and probably even quite a bit less.


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## CompE (Mar 25, 2014)

labor of love said:


> Im pretty sure the costs are based on supply and demand. For every kramer knife that sells for 15k theres a mob of people waiting to buy it. Its just a well made knife, made with attention to detail. Theres no reason to believe it cuts any better than a knife that may retail between $400-800. Besides usually the commentary on kramers are about aesthetic things or how stunning they are visually. Ive never heard it discussed how good the grinds are or how thin behind the edge kramers are, edge retention, ease of sharpening or anything else like that. Im not saying kramers dont have good grinds etc etc etc. but i think the price tag most likely reflects some of the labor thats probably much more expensive than other knives to produce and not superior performance.



A handful of members at the old forum had custom Kramer's back when they were merely very expensive. From what I recall, most reviews were very positive. There were quite a few reviews discussing how good the heat treat is, how good the grids are, how thin they are behind the edge, how easily they sharpen and how well they retain that edge. One or two reviewers felt that the unique profile of a Kramer just wasn't for them.

However, Kramer knives sold at auction are collector's pieces. As a master blacksmith he landed a few interviews; to make the stories more interesting the interviewers started calling him the greatest blacksmith in the world and it took off from there. From what I understand, he's still a rather modest man (you listening Murray?) He still has a multi-year wait list for a custom and he could charge much more for them if he wanted, which would certainly price everyone who isn't a wealthy collector out of the market (ok, it's probably already at that point now). Kramer name adds a lot to the price of the knife, but I am confident the exact same knife would be worth $800-$1500 with any other name on it.


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## WildBoar (Mar 25, 2014)

CompE said:


> From what I understand, he's still a rather modest man (you listening Murray?) He still has a multi-year wait list for a custom and he could charge much more for them if he wanted, which would certainly price everyone who isn't a wealthy collector out of the market (ok, it's probably already at that point now).


I had the honor of talking to him face-to-face at a Sur La Table event a couple years ago. He was very nice and seemed very down-to-earth. He paid his dues, working both in kitchens and as a circus clown in his mis-spent youth. He started learning how to make knives because he could not afford good ones. A lot of the design elements are due to his preferences from his time as a kitchen pro (the very high heel is to get more blade face for scooping up chopped/ diced items). What is most important to him in a knife may not be what is most important to you, but if you hit his lottery you can give him custom specs a la Salty. And if you don't like the knife he makes for you he will make you another. He knows he can raise his prices since the auction knives sell for a lot more then what he charges, but he also wants to make it so more people have the chance to buy his knives. So while $5-6k may seem expensive for a 240 Damascus chef's knife from him, the fact is you can turn around the next day and easily sell it for at least a few thousand $ more. I wore one of my JKS t-shirts to the class, and Bob saw it and asked if that was Dave Martell, then gushed for a few minutes about how great Dave and his sharpening services are. He used to appear on ITK on KF a few times a year (The Seeker), but I don't know if he still visits there on occasion. He is definitely someone I'd love to sit down with for dinner and a few beers.


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## cheezit (Mar 25, 2014)

I think I remember hearing that if your number gets pulled from the lottery and you turn around to sell the knife you're breaking an agreement made with Mr. Kramer. Fairly certain it's a big 'no-no' to do this to him and it will put you on his bad side (rightfully so). It don't feel like it's because of the money, but the principle of the matter.

That being said, when I met Mr. Kramer at the Western State Blacksmithing Conference I found him incredibly humble. Showed up in his Prius, gave an incredible two hour demonstration and then answered questions from the crowd (humbly, even though the questions were pretty inane). After his presentation I had the opportunity to talk to him about his work and what he thought of his situation, he was pretty blown away at the success of it all, as though it even took him by surprise. From talking to him it sounded as though the market drove the prices to where they are; it didn't seem as though there was a concerted effort to inflate the prices of his knives, which is incredible to me.


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## rami_m (Mar 25, 2014)

So a lottery knife would cost around 5 k. Do you get to choose the design or is it a case of ready made ( you have the option to buy what he is offering). How long is the wait typically ?


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## SpiceOfLife (Mar 25, 2014)

rami_m said:


> How long is the wait typically ?



Well the lottery itself is a lottery, so it's random chance. People have been waiting for years though. You figure he's 1 man and he can only make so many knives every year, so the odds of 'winning' his lottery aren't that great and there's a lot of people on his list. But some people get lucky!

From Kramer's website: "Because of the huge demand, we cannot guarantee that everyone on the list will be able to order a knife."

His website says the selection process works as such:

"- We select names both chronologically and randomly from our email list regularly.
- If we pull your name, then you get to design your own knife at current pricing (we'll email you). 
- The random names are selected using a random number generator."

- Steve


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## Von blewitt (Mar 26, 2014)

What was the final price? I missed it


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## ecchef (Mar 26, 2014)

cheezit said:


> I think I remember hearing that if your number gets pulled from the lottery and you turn around to sell the knife you're breaking an agreement made with Mr. Kramer. Fairly certain it's a big 'no-no' to do this to him and it will put you on his bad side (rightfully so). It don't feel like it's because of the money, but the principle of the matter.



So, blatant capitalism is fine when it works in his favor, eh?


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## Dave Kinogie (Mar 26, 2014)

I mean his knives look stunning and I'd imagine the pics don't do them justice, but maybe 1K to 2K stunning? Need to win the lotto to drop the kind of change on a knife his are going for.


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## BJE1 (Mar 26, 2014)

Final price was $32,100.


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## Dave Martell (Mar 26, 2014)

BJE1 said:


> Final price was $32,100.




I would so take a vacation.


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## apicius9 (Mar 26, 2014)

Dave Martell said:


> I would so take a vacation.



You could even vacation in Hawaii with that...

Stefan


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## cheezit (Mar 26, 2014)

ecchef said:


> So, blatant capitalism is fine when it works in his favor, eh?



You'd have to bring up your issues with Mr. Kramer. You can't blame him for wanting to protect his brand, though.


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## rami_m (Mar 26, 2014)

Imagine what all these people would pay for a vintage Kramer. The people who caught on early Possibly sitting on some nice cash


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## brainsausage (Mar 26, 2014)

So ridiculous.


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## rami_m (Mar 26, 2014)

You just described all status symbols.


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## brainsausage (Mar 26, 2014)

I wish my description of status symbols, would be used for a status symbol, and then I could charge 30,000 Kramer's for it.


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## mc2442 (Mar 26, 2014)

without registering for anything, is there anyplace that we can see what sold for $32,100?


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## JDA_NC (Mar 27, 2014)

I'd like to see this knife as well. That is a fair bit more than what I made in the entire last year income wise. I ain't mad though... good on him.


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## dough (Mar 27, 2014)

mc2442 said:


> without registering for anything, is there anyplace that we can see what sold for $32,100?



i think this will show it. link:http://kramerknives.com/auctions/gallery/


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## Von blewitt (Mar 27, 2014)

[/URL][/IMG]


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## Dave Kinogie (Mar 27, 2014)

Put the handle from the July 2012 on the profile from March 2012 with the Damascus from April 2012 and now we're talking.


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## labor of love (Mar 27, 2014)

Profile looks awful. Not that it matters. It will probably never be used.


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## tagheuer (Mar 27, 2014)

Weight wise, it's worth more than gold. 

Simply amazing, since I find such thing as a rare case nowadays.


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 27, 2014)

cheezit said:


> You'd have to bring up your issues with Mr. Kramer. You can't blame him for wanting to protect his brand, though.



Once a person purchases an item it is then theirs to do with as they wish. Unless there was a signed contract before the purchase there's not much he could do about it. Even then I don't think it would hold up in a court. There's already been court precedence set on such matters. 

He can put whatever price tag he wants on his knives, obviously people will pay it. (Though I still don't know _why_)Bellyaching when someone resells it is just bad form. Makes him look like a whiney baby because he only got $15k and the person sold it for $20k or whatever. Meh...


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## ecchef (Mar 27, 2014)

cheezit said:


> You'd have to bring up your issues with Mr. Kramer. You can't blame him for wanting to protect his brand, though.



Yeah, right.


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## panda (Mar 27, 2014)

what an ugly a$$ knife, who ever bought it probably doesn't cook their own food anyway.


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## rami_m (Mar 27, 2014)

panda said:


> what an ugly a$$ knife, who ever bought it probably doesn't cook their own food anyway.



Agree.


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## cheezit (Mar 27, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> Once a person purchases an item it is then theirs to do with as they wish. Unless there was a signed contract before the purchase there's not much he could do about it. Even then I don't think it would hold up in a court. There's already been court precedence set on such matters.
> 
> He can put whatever price tag he wants on his knives, obviously people will pay it. (Though I still don't know _why_)Bellyaching when someone resells it is just bad form. Makes him look like a whiney baby because he only got $15k and the person sold it for $20k or whatever. Meh...



I don't think that Mr. Kramer is claiming that you 'can't' do it, and in fact, I can't give you a source of the verbiage. That being said, if you sell a knife that Mr. Kramer agreed to specifically make for you (at a rate lower than what an auction knife sells for) and you go sell it on eBay for $10K more, why would he ever make custom knives? It would be more advantageous for him to close his books and simply sell knives at his auction.


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## CoqaVin (Mar 27, 2014)

I would never pay that much for a knife unless it was for charity


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## cheezit (Mar 27, 2014)

Mr. Kramer donates 10% of the final amount to a charity:

* Feeding America
* Heifer International - Pass on the Gift
* World Vision
* GRuB - Garden Raised Bounty
* Kiva
* Infinity Culinary Training
* Habitat for Humanity


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## CoqaVin (Mar 27, 2014)

That is cool...although if I bought it at that price I would donate a lot of it to charity


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## rogue108 (Mar 27, 2014)

cheezit said:


> I don't think that Mr. Kramer is claiming that you 'can't' do it, and in fact, I can't give you a source of the verbiage. That being said, if you sell a knife that Mr. Kramer agreed to specifically make for you (at a rate lower than what an auction knife sells for) and you go sell it on eBay for $10K more, why would he ever make custom knives? It would be more advantageous for him to close his books and simply sell knives at his auction.



I'm going to stir the pot.

Okay, Let's forget its Bob Kramer for a moment and apply this argument to any other popular custom knife maker. Why is reselling a custom knife made by Bill Burke or Michael Rader or Devin Thomas acceptable but a Kramer not? 

Why is does being Bob Kramer make it different? I don't get it? Is it because he is Bob Kramer and him doing something custom for me is a privilege. A privilege, I am still paying thousands of dollars for. I being lucky enough to get selected means I cannot resell a knife because Bob Kramer did it for me and he could get thousands more. If this is true then I would say its a fairly narcissistic view of himself and his status. Your right then he should just stop custom orders and get top dollar for his knives through an auction, so he doesn't have to worry about resale.


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## Ruso (Mar 27, 2014)

Unless he license the use of knives, like software vendors do with the software, I think it's illegal to forbid you to resell a bought item at any price you want.


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## cheezit (Mar 27, 2014)

You're arguing with yourself here, bub. No matter what people agree to; they'll still get that knife, realize it doesn't cut any better than other knives, and sell it for more than they paid for it. You can't change human nature.

If any knifemaker had the same supply/demand issues as Mr. Kramer I doubt they would sell their knives at a discounted market price just for the sake of giving people the opportunity to purchase a knife.


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## rogue108 (Mar 27, 2014)

cheezit said:


> You're arguing with yourself here, bub. No matter what people agree to; they'll still get that knife, realize it doesn't cut any better than other knives, and sell it for more than they paid for it. You can't change human nature.
> 
> If any knifemaker had the same supply/demand issues as Mr. Kramer I doubt they would sell their knives at a discounted market price just for the sake of giving people the opportunity to purchase a knife.



Not sure if this was directed a me or not but there is no argument here just a point of view. I believe you posted 



cheezit said:


> I think I remember hearing that if your number gets pulled from the lottery and you turn around to sell the knife you're breaking an agreement made with Mr. Kramer. Fairly certain it's a big 'no-no' to do this to him and it will put you on his bad side (rightfully so). It don't feel like it's because of the money, but the principle of the matter.



All I was saying, is if the above is true and he feels we are violating a principle by reselling his knives for profit, then don't sell your custom knives for less than your auction knives or like you stated close your custom book. The problem is solved. I would think its fairly egotistical of him to feel that way. Why is selling a Kramer on the secondary market so much worse than selling another custom makers knife? What is so different about owning a custom Kramer that it would put you on his bad side if you sold it? As you said it cuts like any other knife. Just seems silly selling a knife you acquired from him would put you on his bad side.


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## Salty dog (Mar 27, 2014)

I was one who sold one at a nice profit. I also sold another to a friend at cost who in turn sold it at a profit.

After waiting for over three years I felt I could do anything with them I wanted.

I sold the knife partly because I was disenchanted with the process and maker.

I turned around and bought other knives with the money.

Yes, sometimes I regret it. (Some civilian in NYC may have the best knife Kramer ever made)


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## Anton (Mar 27, 2014)

At the expense of catching a lot of fire here and probably going off topic and on a tangent over an issue that should have been closed; I want to consider what are profits and capitalism; considering that a good part of the US is built on and has become what it is now as a result, whether you like it, agree with it or not. And to be fair we must consider it both ways; if you had invested in stocks 10 years ago and these went up 1000% you probably would be a very happy camper. 

In a market system the forces and interaction of supply and demand for each commodity determines what and how much to produce. Prices are the reflection of the scarce resource and prices are determined by the interaction of demand and supply. In a market system, prices are a communicational system through which producers and consumers carry out their decisions.

Consider simple things you buy such as wine in a fine dining establishment; sometimes marked up to 300%. Bottled water, up to 4000% mark upk; designer eye glasses have up to 1000% mark ups; a few week ago I was in a NY hotel and saw the cost of a pack of gummy bears in the room's bar; it had a 1,324% mark up vs the same pack in the CVS down the street. Take the most extreme of examples; over the counter drugs, marked up 200-3000%; when you consider just the cost of active ingredients in the pills, the markup can amount to 600,000 percent. If we were to calculate the true retail cost of the Kramer, which is what I believe we are arguing here, let us say $1,500 and it sold for over $30 K, this is a little over 2,000% mark up, give or take. 

Profits are without doubt the key driving force in a capitalist economy. No respectable entrepreneur would try to sell goods or services were they not to make some sort of profit out of it, economies that are, of course, founded on the profit motive.

Perhaps we are not so much as passing judgement on Mr.Kramer because he can get this kind of money for his knives, and honestly we could applaud him; but instead, I think some of us here have a problem with the fact that other makers are not out to make this kind of money and rather just make excellent knives at expected retail costs, hell, in some cases undervalued and they just simply enjoy doing them - and a lot of us here are fortunate to enjoy these.

Just my thoughts


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 28, 2014)

Good posts Anton and cheesit.

I cannot believe people are suggesting Bob is egotistical or a "whiney baby". I've been around these forums for about 7-8 years now and it's always the same BS. So when I ordered my two knives I spoke with Bob on the phone and we discussed the current market. He is very concerned (this was 4 years ago) about the secondary market inflating his prices, and people taking advantage of him not raising his price to match the market. Read that again, he has kept the prices of his knives WELL BELOW market value. He is one man, he can only make so many at the level of quality his name possesses. Anyone that is an artist or passionate about something knows that when they make something for someone, they want that result to be enjoyed and respected, not whored out. That's Bob. Say all the negative things you want about the man, I applaud his restraint. As probably the most famous knife maker in the world, the man lives pretty frugal. How many people at the top of their game live that way?

Many Kramer owners like myself are not rich or lucky, we were in the right place at the right time. If I had a nickel for every time I realized most life happens this way.


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## marc4pt0 (Mar 28, 2014)

I just hope my name gets picked one of these days. 2 years on his list I believe. And I'll wait even more without a doubt. But in the end, no matter how old I am when I get that call, I'll still pee my pants. In the meantime, I'll still enjoy my ZK's and shun Meiji.


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## Von blewitt (Mar 28, 2014)

marc4pt0 said:


> I just hope my name gets picked one of these days. 2 years on his list I believe. And I'll wait even more without a doubt. But in the end, no matter how old I am when I get that call, I'll still pee my pants. In the meantime, I'll still enjoy my ZK's and shun Meiji.



Marc, are you on his list or in the lottery?


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## marc4pt0 (Mar 28, 2014)

Both if I'm not mistaking


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## WildBoar (Mar 28, 2014)

I think you only get on the list if you are picked in the lottery, unless you got on the list prior to the lottery starting.


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## Bill13 (Mar 28, 2014)

Very well said although I disagree somewhat on the drug example. As a bio-tech investor sometimes I am made painfully aware that to bring a drug to market takes close to 10 years of research and trials. Many fail after companies spend 100's of millions of dollars on them. So while the actual cost to make the drug, once approved by the FDA can be less than $100 per dose and sometime much less, this bears little relationship on the price charged because these companies need to cover not only the 100's of millions spent on that drug , but of all the other drugs they were testing but failed.

The ACC will make things interesting because the government will not be able to afford these prices, so I think in 3-5 years we will see drug companies forced by the feds to lower the prices they charge, which will of course have the unintended consequence of reducing the supply of new drugs, unless they are also willing to reduce the regulatory burden.


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## rogue108 (Mar 28, 2014)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Good posts Anton and cheesit.
> 
> I cannot believe people are suggesting Bob is egotistical or a "whiney baby". I've been around these forums for about 7-8 years now and it's always the same BS. So when I ordered my two knives I spoke with Bob on the phone and we discussed the current market. He is very concerned (this was 4 years ago) about the secondary market inflating his prices, and people taking advantage of him not raising his price to match the market. Read that again, he has kept the prices of his knives WELL BELOW market value. He is one man, he can only make so many at the level of quality his name possesses. Anyone that is an artist or passionate about something knows that when they make something for someone, they want that result to be enjoyed and respected, not whored out. That's Bob. Say all the negative things you want about the man, I applaud his restraint. As probably the most famous knife maker in the world, the man lives pretty frugal. How many people at the top of their game live that way?
> 
> Many Kramer owners like myself are not rich or lucky, we were in the right place at the right time. If I had a nickel for every time I realized most life happens this way.



Just to clairfy, I am passing no judgement about Bob Kramer. I don't know the guy, haven't met him, don't know what he is thinking. I was just saying if what cheezit posted originally is TRUE about getting being on Kramer's bad side if you sold a custom, it begs to question why he would feel that way. If it was about ego then that's silly. You obviously know him better than I do.

I am all for Kramer charging whatever he wants low or high. Its great his demand is so great he can pull 30K+ per knife. He's worked hard to make his brand what it is so there is no reason why he can't reap the benefits. It honestly doesn't matter if he lives frugal or flashy. He's earned it and it doesn't reflect on what kind of person he is.

I'll stop kicking the dead horse.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 28, 2014)

rogue108 said:


> Just to clairfy, I am passing no judgement about Bob Kramer. I don't know the guy, haven't met him, don't know what he is thinking. I was just saying if what cheezit posted originally is TRUE about getting being on Kramer's bad side if you sold a custom, it begs to question why he would feel that way. If it was about ego then that's silly. You obviously know him better than I do.
> 
> I am all for Kramer charging whatever he wants low or high. Its great his demand is so great he can pull 30K+ per knife. He's worked hard to make his brand what it is so there is no reason why he can't reap the benefits. It honestly doesn't matter if he lives frugal or flashy. He's earned it and it doesn't reflect on what kind of person he is.
> 
> I'll stop kicking the dead horse.



I don't think Bob would be happy if you bought one and turned it around for profit, but there would be nothing he could do about it other than not making another for you. Like that matters, most people in line will probably not get one in their lifetime, let alone another one. Like most artists, he wants you to enjoy his creation, not whore it out. I can understand that. Also, he doesn't sell a knife for $30K, the bidders sell each other the knife for $30K. If only one person bidded, it would be sold at the reserve price, probably what he charges per inch. No one becomes a knife maker to get rich, he was the one exception. No way any knifemaker out there would turn down the ability to have his commercial success.


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## cheezit (Mar 28, 2014)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I don't think Bob would be happy if you bought one and turned it around for profit, but there would be nothing he could do about it other than not making another for you. Like that matters, most people in line will probably not get one in their lifetime, let alone another one. *Like most artists, he wants you to enjoy his creation, not whore it out.* I can understand that. Also, he doesn't sell a knife for $30K, the bidders sell each other the knife for $30K. If only one person bidded, it would be sold at the reserve price, probably what he charges per inch. No one becomes a knife maker to get rich, he was the one exception. No way any knifemaker out there would turn down the ability to have his commercial success.



This is almost exactly what I typed out in a response, but I decided I'm too new to say something so strong. I agree with you 100% and find it obtuse that others are having difficult seeing the perspective.


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## orangehero (Mar 28, 2014)

What is it that makes his knives such high brow artistic creations compared to a number of other custom kitchen knife makers that arguably make better knives from both a functional and aesthetic perspective? 

Maybe it's just a smart marketing move to keep those high dollar auctions rolling. The people who pay that price maybe don't know much about how a kitchen knife should function, but they can feel better since look, Kramer blesses the plebs with his knives that must obviously function better than anything else at that price.

There are art knives that it is hard to argue are not worth their price, I just don't see how the knife in that photo is worth $30k.


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## labor of love (Mar 28, 2014)

orangehero said:


> What is it that makes his knife such a high brow artistic creations compared to a number of other custom kitchen knife makers that arguable make better knives from both a functional and aesthetic perspective?
> 
> Maybe it's just a smart marketing move to keep those high dollar auctions rolling. The people who pay that price maybe don't know much about how a kitchen knife should function, but they can feel better since look, Kramer blesses the plebs with his knives that must obviously function better than anything else at that price.
> 
> There are art knives that it is hard to argue are not worth their price, I just don't see how the knife in that photo is worth $30k.


Its just eyecandy. Again, im sure its performance is on par with stuff that retails around $300.


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## orangehero (Mar 28, 2014)

Not at that price for that knife. I haven't read the articles that made Kramer blow up, but I figure those bidders are paying for the mystique, whether it's for performance or whatever else.


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## labor of love (Mar 28, 2014)

It aint performance. Its just expensive art.


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## cheezit (Mar 28, 2014)

What makes a Lambourghini $100,000 more expensive than an Aston Martin? A Pagini Zonda more expensive than a Mercedes SLR McLaren? Intangible answers that you only know the difference when you experience it, I'm sure.


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## DevinT (Mar 28, 2014)

A few years ago I went to an eye specialist, he asked me what I did for a living. I told him that I made knives. He asked if I knew a guy named Bob Kramer, of course I said. He then told that he wanted one of Bob's knives. I told him that he might be interested in some of my knives, he politely declined.

Hoss


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## heldentenor (Mar 29, 2014)

In a prestige market like this, measuring value through equivalencies or performance metrics misses the economic proposition entirely. It's all about being the first to be recognized. There are many cubist painters; there's only one Picasso. There are more than a handful of people who make damascus knives; there's only one who cornered the prestige market by appearing in all of the places that those with six, seven, and eight digit incomes go to hear about what they "should" have. 

Put more simply, though I suspect his heart may lay elsewhere, Bob's core market is _not_ people who know knives; it's people who have more income than they have consumables to spend it on, and for whom having the "it" item at any price matters, because exclusivity and perceived connoisseurship carry more value than actual money.


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## panda (Mar 29, 2014)

i would much rather have an aston martin over a lambo!!


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## Von blewitt (Mar 29, 2014)

DevinT said:


> A few years ago I went to an eye specialist, he asked me what I did for a living. I told him that I made knives. He asked if I knew a guy named Bob Kramer, of course I said. He then told that he wanted one of Bob's knives. I told him that he might be interested in some of my knives, he politely declined.
> 
> Hoss




Sounds like he's the one who needs an eye doctor Hoss


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## theo59 (Mar 29, 2014)

i would rather have a DT than a bob kramer


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## Johnny.B.Good (Mar 29, 2014)

heldentenor said:


> In a prestige market like this, measuring value through equivalencies or performance metrics misses the economic proposition entirely. It's all about being the first to be recognized. There are many cubist painters; there's only one Picasso. There are more than a handful of people who make damascus knives; there's only one who cornered the prestige market by appearing in all of the places that those with six, seven, and eight digit incomes go to hear about what they "should" have.
> 
> Put more simply, though I suspect his heart may lay elsewhere, Bob's core market is _not_ people who know knives; it's people who have more income than they have consumables to spend it on, and for whom having the "it" item at any price matters, because exclusivity and perceived connoisseurship carry more value than actual money.



Well said.


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## cookinstuff (Mar 29, 2014)

I feel this is different than art. Albeit this is only my opinion, but I feel alot of people around here who have multiple gyutos are looking for something that really suits their style and work that they have to do. Bob isn't selling art, he is selling work tools that have elevated to the level of 'art', they still have to work, and I feel if you bought it, and don't enjoy using it for work, then you can sell it and replace it all you want. 

I personally would never buy a Bob Kramer, I enjoy the knives I happen to be using, but if I was on the search for a good gyuto for me and plopped down my 30k, because I can see some chef's who are really dedicated, spending that kind of money on a knife, I mean a chef will spend 30k on a car that might last 10-15 years, why can't they spend 30k on a knife that will last their work life. I feel if you are enjoying your shig, your dt or your masamoto more than your Bob, but only after you tried the Bob, what's the issue selling it? I'm sure he is totally crying everytime somebody sells a knife and drives his market price up.

I relate it to cooking for the construction workers who do work on the restaurant, they are easy to please, eat their food, don't complain and they are my kind of people, but who do I actually cook for? People I wouldn't talk to or associate with, they are the super rich, and couldn't care less about the work/care that's involved, some do, most don't. So, I feel for Bob in the fact that I would like to cook for people who can't afford the great stuff like myself, but guess what, I don't because nobody can make a living like that.

I heard somewhere Bob used to be a cook, so he is probably slightly miffed that cooks like he used to be can't even afford the tools he made for guys like him, but only for the super rich who will never even use it, damn success is complicated sometimes. That's my rant for the night, don't mean to offend anyone, just trying to relate and see both sides, but at the same time if I dropped that 30k and didn't like it, it would be gone for 35k in a heartbeat if I could make it happen.


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## Von blewitt (Mar 29, 2014)

I got the impression the knives that go for auction arent the same as his usual custom Damascus knives, they seem to have one off mosaic damascus patterns. Whereas the customs aren't as blingy. In Salty's case I don't even think he was able to choose the Damascus pattern for his first knife? The last Kramer I saw on ebay was an 8inch Meiji with flip flop ladder damascus, and it took a couple of auctions before it sold. And went for somewhere around 6-7k alot of coin, but not in the same ballpark as 30k.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 29, 2014)

heldentenor said:


> In a prestige market like this, measuring value through equivalencies or performance metrics misses the economic proposition entirely. It's all about being the first to be recognized. There are many cubist painters; there's only one Picasso. There are more than a handful of people who make damascus knives; there's only one who cornered the prestige market by appearing in all of the places that those with six, seven, and eight digit incomes go to hear about what they "should" have.
> 
> Put more simply, though I suspect his heart may lay elsewhere, Bob's core market is _not_ people who know knives; it's people who have more income than they have consumables to spend it on, and for whom having the "it" item at any price matters, because exclusivity and perceived connoisseurship carry more value than actual money.



ETA: I may have read it wrong, I think we are in agreement in your second paragraph. I'll leave my reply there is case i'm wrong.

I suspect you are wrong in your assumptions. While the core market are those that are rich and are not as knowledgeable as many here about knives, that does not mean that Bob doesn't care about the product he puts out and is not knowledgeable about what a chef desires, and especially is not passionate about his work. Let's not forget, he is a Mastersmith and there aren't a whole lot of them.

It's a shame the cynicism that is being shown here, and the human psych tendency to put another man down for his successes. I'll never reach the level of success in anything I do, that he's done, but it doesn't mean I'll deride him for his success. Finally, the most amusing part of all this commentary is the lack of responsibility displayed towards the buyer (not you heldentenor, you made it very clear). They determine the price of goods/services, maybe we should think big picture, eh?

Here's to Marko, Hoss, Pierre, Burke, and Rader for your future successes and hopefully Shun hunts you down, as well as Bon Appetit. I hope no one questions your dedication to your trade if that happens.


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## heldentenor (Mar 29, 2014)

I don't think I expressed myself clearly, Jason. I was trying to say that though Bob's heart might lay elsewhere--with the craftsmanship of his products and the users (professional and enthusiastic cooks with skills) who could put them to best use--that's not where his products "fit" within an economic analysis. Their value does not stem from their use as tools for culinary work, no matter how good they might be at those tasks and no matter how much Bob might sympathize, respect, and appreciate culinary workers and enthusiasts. 

I don't and won't question his motives. I was simply describing the market position of his products. Back on the old ITK forum, Bob always seemed accessible and enthusiastic about knives in general (not only his own products).


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## memorael (Mar 30, 2014)

jeez... why so much hate for Bob. The guy is living the dream, if his knives merit or not the prices they fetch is pretty clear, someone paid for it. If any of the maker's here would start selling knives at that price tomorrow, would anyone here say: "his knives aren't worth it"; "they're ugly" and whatnot? I remember the days when Bob was just Bob and made really good knives at one tenth his current prices, and everyone wanted one. It so happens to be that now that only a few people can get their hands on one of his knives, everyone thinks his knives suck. People, get over Bob's success as a knife maker and wish him luck, last time I checked all the people making knives at some point sold for far less than the current prices.


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## Lefty (Mar 30, 2014)

Bob has been nothing but awesome every time I've dealt with him. He's at the top of the game, and he's incredibly fortunate that his skills, branding, and charisma have allowed for him to fetch the prices he does. If I could get $30000 for a piece I made, I sure as hell wouldn't be selling them at $1200.


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## panda (Mar 30, 2014)

i don't think bob is being hated on, it's the wankers who drive his prices up that we're throwing poop at.


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## labor of love (Mar 30, 2014)

Dont hate the player, hate the game?:sofa:


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## memorael (Mar 30, 2014)

+1 on the wankers.


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 30, 2014)

No ones hating on Bob Kramer, quite the contrary. Anyone would be a fool to not capitalize on the opportunity that was given to him and good on him for seizing upon it. The aesthetics are purely personal. I personally do not find anything appealing about his knives. I can and do admire the skill it takes to make them though. 

My original question at the beginning of this thread was "what made his knives so special to warrant the price of them?" Given there are 120 master bladesmiths and only _his_ command this sort of price point. The answer, nothing. You're paying for the name. Does a $30,000 knife cut food any better than a $300? No.

You can't totally put the blame on the consumer for the price drive in auctions or secondary market. He could easily remedy how much his products go for but why should he when he doesn't have to? Nothing wrong at all with that either. I just personally don't find them appealing even if I had that kind of money to blow.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 30, 2014)

Actually Erilyn, the blame is entirely on the consumer. Especially in auctions and the secondary market. This is economics 101 here. Not sure what point you are trying to make there; how can he control what others will pay? As far as aesthetics, well, not everyone is going to appeal to his design. I can understand that, I find other makers knives to be more appealing aestetically as well. Functionally, his knives work awesome.


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## panda (Mar 31, 2014)

i will take my takeda over a DT, Rader, Kramer, or any other highly sought after american knife any day.


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 31, 2014)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> Actually Erilyn, the blame is entirely on the consumer. Especially in auctions and the secondary market. This is economics 101 here. Not sure what point you are trying to make there; how can he control what others will pay? As far as aesthetics, well, not everyone is going to appeal to his design. I can understand that, I find other makers knives to be more appealing aestetically as well. Functionally, his knives work awesome.



I'm looking at it from a business and marketing standpoint. He was propelled to God like status when an article was written about him 16 years ago. He found a way to capitalize on it by making his knives so hard to get that there has to be special lotteries and auctions to get one. If he really wanted to have more control over the prices, he wouldn't put them up for auction. Instead, he'd bang some out and put them up for sale on his site. Why would he though when he get $30k+ for them? Again, nothing wrong with that. It's actually a great strategy, one I've used before only on a MUCH smaller scale. Only do a handful or so a year and put a few up for auction. I'm not saying the consumer plays no roll in all this but they aren't 100% to blame either. It's called consumer manipulation. 

I hope I explained that coherently. I've got 2 toddlers that are in disparate need of bed time!! :dazed:


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## cheezit (Mar 31, 2014)

panda said:


> i will take my takeda over a DT, Rader, Kramer, or any other highly sought after american knife any day.



Cool off-topic story, bro


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## erikz (Mar 31, 2014)

cheezit said:


> Cool off-topic story, bro


Not really. Its about how he values a Kramer. Thats what this topic is mostly about isnt it?


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 31, 2014)

Erilyn75 said:


> I'm looking at it from a business and marketing standpoint. He was propelled to God like status when an article was written about him 16 years ago. He found a way to capitalize on it by making his knives so hard to get that there has to be special lotteries and auctions to get one. If he really wanted to have more control over the prices, he wouldn't put them up for auction. Instead, he'd bang some out and put them up for sale on his site. Why would he though when he get $30k+ for them? Again, nothing wrong with that. It's actually a great strategy, one I've used before only on a MUCH smaller scale. Only do a handful or so a year and put a few up for auction. I'm not saying the consumer plays no roll in all this but they aren't 100% to blame either. It's called consumer manipulation.
> 
> I hope I explained that coherently. I've got 2 toddlers that are in disparate need of bed time!! :dazed:



While he does control the auction aspect, and it's something I've disagreed with from the beginning, it's his way of staying relevant in the kitchen knife world. It's the same reason amazing knife makers like Burke, Rader, and DT go to knife shows. If you are not in some way marketing your wares, you will lose prevalence in the market, no matter how many years wait you have. Bob makes all his knives himself, and can knock out about 150 or so a year. He puts up a few for auction for whatever reason suits him, to stay relevant, and to get some charitable interests funded. The consumer does the rest. Now, if he were charging a $1k an inch, MAYBE we could start an a discussion. Still, i'm a big fan of capitalism comrade.


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 31, 2014)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> While he does control the auction aspect, and it's something I've disagreed with from the beginning, it's his way of staying relevant in the kitchen knife world. It's the same reason amazing knife makers like Burke, Rader, and DT go to knife shows. If you are not in some way marketing your wares, you will lose prevalence in the market, no matter how many years wait you have. Bob makes all his knives himself, and can knock out about 150 or so a year. He puts up a few for auction for whatever reason suits him, to stay relevant, and to get some charitable interests funded. The consumer does the rest. Now, if he were charging a $1k an inch, MAYBE we could start an a discussion.



I don't believe he needs to run auctions to stay relevant in the knife world. He's Bob Kramer., there are other ways to do it. Regardless, I really don't care why he does it, but you can't say you're worried about the price drive when you fuel the machine. Like I said, there are several ways to stabilize the prices, if he wanted to he could but from a business perspective it'd be foolish. You and I are just looking at this from different view points. 




> Still, i'm a big fan of capitalism comrade



I really hope this was not meant as the insult it comes of as


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 31, 2014)

We will have to agree to disagree. As of the second part, I did not mean that as an insult to you. It was meant to be ironic though, to all those socialists. :groucho:


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## apicius9 (Mar 31, 2014)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> It was meant to be ironic though, to all those socialists. :groucho:



Hey, I saw that! 

Stefan


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## Erilyn75 (Mar 31, 2014)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. As of the second part, I did not mean that as an insult to you. It was meant to be ironic though, to all those socialists. :groucho:



It had me shaking my head because I'm anything but lol


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## Marcelo Amaral (Apr 17, 2014)

Found it reading this guy. Nice recipes!

http://www.seriouseats.com/2013/12/equipment-the-best-chefs-knives-gift-guide.html
http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/04/knife-skills-how-to-hone-a-dull-knife.html?ref=search


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## Derek_Jones (Apr 15, 2016)

Matus said:


> Bob Kramer seems to be a rare example of a person who is not only a master in his craft (I do not doubt his knives are excellent based on what I have read), but also managed to find his way to high end collectors and cash them heavily. Few modern painters manage to sell a painting in a good gallery for what Bob can charge for a knife via his website. That tells a lot IMO. My hat if off to Bob (even if I would never spend this money for a knife).



It's not fair to blame Bob Kramer for the price one of his knives get sold at an auction. He didn't set the price the bidders do.


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## aboynamedsuita (Apr 15, 2016)

Derek_Jones said:


> It's not fair to blame Bob Kramer for the price one of his knives get sold at an auction. He didn't set the price the bidders do.



:zombiegrave:

Very true though, a knife (or anything for that matter) is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In this case it's sort of the flip side

Welcome to KKF


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## WildBoar (Apr 15, 2016)

Wow, resurrection 2 years later. There have been more threads since this one.


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