# medium jnats?



## panda (Oct 7, 2013)

was curious about using a *low-medium jnat to finish on as part of a 2 stone combo, gesshin 600 is the first. want around 2k grit for heavy duty usage. 
i could care less about 'kasumi' finish, strictly for sharpening/touchup duties.

anyone try the aoto from metalmaster? what about white binsui from jns, or ikarashi?


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## franzb69 (Oct 7, 2013)

an aoto is what you need! =D

aotos are around 2-4k ranges depends on the stone you get. so YMMV. =D


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## Von blewitt (Oct 7, 2013)

White Binsui, PM Mike (Bienek) he uses a white binsui in a 2 stone progression and swears by it


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## vinster (Oct 7, 2013)

Do you want to the stone to work fast? If so, the white binsui or ikarashi might not be ideal for you. Without a nagura, its takes a bit of work to get a slurry going and before you start taking off any metal. My binsui and ikarashi can both finish around 2k... maybe a little less. I like both of mine, but I dont know how well they'd work in a pro environment for touchups.

Keep in mind there's a HUGE variation in quality of natural stones, particularly at the more coarse end. A lot of binsui are very hard. I asked Maxim for his softest one, and it's still fairly hard. I think an aoto is your best bet, but you might have to try a few before you find one that you like. I don't have any experience with aoto from metalmaster, but his prices are lower than most. I've had decent luck with other stones I've bought from him.

My huge binsui is something like 4.5" thick. I'd be open to slicing it in half and sharing if you know of a good way to cut through it


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## panda (Oct 9, 2013)

yes, only want fast cutting as i have no patience for sharpening, i hate doing it to begin with and only use splash n go stones. i have a nagura that came with chosera 400 would that work?

i'm borrowing a hard aoto and if i like it, will probably try out the one from metalmaster. although i wonder if it's the same one that EE carries.

thanks for the generous offer, but i would not want to even risk damage, i can just imagine it crumbling during any attempt at splitting, haha.


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## schanop (Oct 9, 2013)

What's your budget panda? If budget is big, then mainaman seems to have Aizu for sale: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/14429-FS-Aisu-from-JNS

I love using one I have for various knives, gyuto, deba, and suji for example.


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## JDA_NC (Oct 9, 2013)

I'm just curious - what is your thought process?

Meaning, as a pro cook who doesn't like sharpening, why are you looking towards natural stones? I don't mean this in the critical sense, just genuinely curious. I seem to remember reading you switching from all soakers to all splash & go, and were using JNS synth aoto as your finishing stone.

I guess part of the reason I'm confused is that I understand most JNats to be almost exclusively for pleasure when it comes to benefits vs synthetic stones. Unless you're talking about contrasting finishes (which most of us cooks don't get two f's about) or - maybe - providing a bit more of a bite at a higher grit. Otherwise it seems the JNat rabbit hole is for those who really enjoying the sharpening process & want to play around with different materials. That is my limited understanding at least.


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## panda (Oct 9, 2013)

I read that nats resist loading really well which is the one thing that irritates me more than fast dishing.
Also, I'm trying to find something that also has good feedback while meeting my other criteria.
Budget is not high at all.


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## Chuckles (Oct 9, 2013)

Budget natural stone is a tough one. I have a red aoto and really like it. Sometimes though it finishes too high for where I ant to be. The way Bieniek uses finer naguras on the Binsui seems like the most reasonable way to go natural and keep the finish level down. I like the idea of mixed mud on the coarser substrate. And trying nagura sized naturals would be way cheaper than full size stones.


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## Asteger (Oct 9, 2013)

I don't know where you'd pick up a red Atagoyama ('red aoto') now, as the one 'final' one has just been sold on JNS again. BST? However, though it might suit you, on the other hand I think they get too muddy in order to be fuss-free and fast like you'd like.

As for other aoto, sounds like the vast majority of them don't perform well and are generally a waste of time and money. Best if possible to buy from another user/collector who has had it in his collection and can vouch for its quality. How you'd come across one, though, well... 

Haven't tried a Binsui, but like my Ikarashi from JNS though I wish it were larger. I've used it without nagura, but what Vinster said is true - it isn't the fastest way to sharpen.


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## panda (Oct 10, 2013)

i figure if jnat have better 'feel' then my technique would be more efficient hence fewer mess ups even if it cuts slower. in the long run my sessions would be quicker, besides it's only for finishing and touchups so shouldnt take long to begin with right?

chuck, could you elaborate on 'too high'?

im a little confused on what bieniek does. he stops at binsui but uses mud built up from higher grit naguras as a combo type deal? 

my goal is to have a very aggressive edge with retention being vastly more important than refinement. hence 2k target grit if that makes any sense? for reference, i stop at king 1000 on house knives. currently stopping @ synthetic 3k for my knives.


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## mainaman (Oct 10, 2013)

panda said:


> i figure if jnat have better 'feel' then my technique would be more efficient hence fewer mess ups even if it cuts slower. in the long run my sessions would be quicker, besides it's only for finishing and touchups so shouldnt take long to begin with right?
> 
> chuck, could you elaborate on 'too high'?
> 
> ...


in this case Red Aoto would be the highest you would go.
Ikarashi, Aizu, Binsui, all are in the 1k-2k range


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## Chuckles (Oct 10, 2013)

For some tasks the red aoto leaves the edge too refined. For slicing crusty proteins especially. 
For most things it is a great stone. Great for touch ups. 

PM me if you want to try it.

As far as I can tell that is how Bieniek uses his Binsui.


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## panda (Oct 10, 2013)

got to try a nat for the first time today, have on loan a san-aoto (the little skinny one from this shootout http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/6345-Aoto-Shootout). got to say i came away impressed. it feels wonderful and the edge it leaves is unreal. got to see how long this edge will last though.


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## panda (Dec 11, 2013)

*update
i ended up with a very nice aoto from maxim, i absolutely love the edge off of it as finishing stone and it cuts fast too. don't spend much time on it, feels like 4k grit, if i go longer it gets more refined to 5kish. 

now i'm curious about a coarser jnat, perhaps binsui? 

vinster, how long would you say it takes to cut a new edge with a binsui?


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## CoqaVin (Dec 11, 2013)

where did you get a Aoto I thought they were sold out?


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## vinster (Dec 11, 2013)

panda said:


> vinster, how long would you say it takes to cut a new edge with a binsui?



It's really hard to say how long it takes to get a fresh edge... it depends on how thick the knife is BTE and what kind of steel. I'm just a home cook, so my knives rarely need to go down to a binsui except when I first set them up. What nagura I use to make a slurry also impacts the speed. I usually use an asano tenjyou, but it cuts faster if I use my atoma 1200 plate. On a knife that's already thin behind the edge with white #2 (konosuke fujiyama), I can raise a burr in under a minute. On a global or a shun vg10, it takes a bit longer.

I'd say that it's slower than the synthetic 1000s that I've tried, including the JNS 1000, JKI 1200, JKI 1000 diamond plate, and bester 1200.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 11, 2013)

:happymug:I would sharpen my knives after service.I always found it a nice focus relaxation after busting [email protected]* all night long.I am not preachingbut always enjoyed working with sharp edges.Never minded sharpening.


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## panda (Dec 12, 2013)

the purpose of nagura is to build a slurry right? i have a dmt slurry stone, would that work?

keith - last thing i want to do @ end of shift is to pull out stones and do a sharpening session, i'm there for so long i just want to GTFO and have a beer or four or ten.
lately, i've just kept using dulled edge until i feel like doing another full session (not just touch ups, i find those only mitigate the issue for a few days)


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## panda (Dec 12, 2013)

has anybody used both a binsui and an ikarashi? what are some pros and cons of each?


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## Asteger (Dec 12, 2013)

I haven't used the Binsui, but hear that it does well but only with a nagura (not a big deal in my book; there's a video of Maxim using one and, yes, he starts of with a nagura, a nice big Botan). Meanwhile, the Ikarashi is supposed to have better feel, but is a bit more expensive (if you go by JNS prices) and a smaller stone; the JNS verson also has very rounded edges, further reducing the sharpening surface, and you will also need to flatten it out when you get it (though the flattening is easy enough). You don't need a nagura to use it, but it's still helpful (I'll usually use a diamond nagura). Aside from on JNS, the same kind of Ikarashi is available in Japan (I've seen it sold online for a higher price) and others which haven't been filed down on the edges like the JNS version and are cheaper, though I have no idea about the quality. Anyway, probably not much difference, so go for: Binsui for price and size, or Ikarashi for performance. Or just get both and sell the one you find you use less.


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