# Why so much love for ceramic rods vs steel?



## eazypeazy

Looking into getting a better honing rod, and I see a lot of quality places seem to prefer ceramic rods over steel. What does ceramic rods have over steel? Some of the ceramic rods seem to have grits on them, are these similar to a diamond rod? Also, what's the deal with ribbed rods that have slightly raised lines on them; I thought I read somewhere to stay away from those, is that true?


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## gaijin

What knives are you planning to use on the rod?


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## chinacats

You don't need either with good knives...what type knives do you have? I use a waterstone for touchups. Rods put a lot of pressure on a single part of the edge...that said, some pro chefs use ceramics for touch ups but if a home user you don't have the same speed requirements.


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## deskjockey

Are you trying to 're-align' the edge or to actually 'sharpen' it?

"Steels" typically are only good for re-aligning a dented or rolled edge in what most of us would consider soft or semi-soft blade steels. Victorinix kitchen knives come to mind as a classic for a _sharpening _steel.

I like ceramic rods or 'crossed sticks' for maintaining an edge between true resharpenings when I am using a harder steel like commonly seen in a good Gyuto.


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## Benuser

Traditional steel rods reset edges that are out of true, who are slightly folded, as it happens with soft steel. Harder steel won't fold, it breaks, or chips as it is called here.
Grooves in a steel rod create a wire edge that will cut for a few strokes.
Both are to be avoided with good knives.
A ceramic rod will abrade a bit of the fatigued steel that caused the edge to fail. So far so good. But it will create a burr as well, and it takes quite some experience to get rid of that burr on a rod. When not used very carefully the rod will eventually change the edge's geometry.
I see a ceramic rod as an emergency solution in a professional environment. Better refresh the edge on the last stone used for sharpening. Just strop and deburr.


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## ThEoRy

In addition to the already made excellent points I would also like to point out that the rockwell hardness of the honing rod itself has to be harder than the knife steel for it to have any effect at all. Previously these steel constructed rods may have been between 60-61 at the most which is enough to align the edge of a 56-58 hardness knife. They may make them higher now I think I saw a Wusthoff where they claimed 65. In any case the ceramic variety of rod is much harder than the steel variety. The Mac rod for example is like an 81 I think. The seiger ruby rod claims the sintered ruby is 200. 

So basically if you are going to use a rod on a Japanese or high tech American made knife you have to use one that is harder than the knife. If the knife is harder than the rod it doesn't work. It might even damage the rod by shaving off it's material.


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## Xenif

Alternatively there is the uber secret chinese technique of using the bottom of any ceramic bowl or dish as a sort of honing block


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## Boynutman

If you do decide to go for a ceramic rod, I found the (expensive) Mac black ceramic is much much better than the cheaper brandless ceramic rod from my local kitchen store. The Mac works, the cheapo doesn't. Not all ceramic is equal it would appear.
Only use it on my Sabatier, not on my Jknives, for the reasons given by the other members.


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## Benuser

Have tried different ceramic rods with soft carbons like Sabs and slightly harder Sheffields. It works, but not for long. You start with an edge fresh from the stones and work on a crappy poly board -- the worst there is. After say 3/4 of an hour you notice serious performance loss and use the rod. Next stop will be after fifteen minutes.
Why? You have rebuilt an edge out of fatigued steel, steel that has failed. 
At this stage, having probably gone too far, stropping and deburring on a medium-fine stone will completely restore the edge and its retention. Still better, do it on your finest stone -- meaning the last one used for sharpening -- as soon as you detect the slightest performance loss.


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## inferno

chinacats said:


> You don't need either with good knives...




exactly.

I did however fins some use for a mac (I think) ceramic rod. You can use it as a half sharpmaker if you dont have anything else (like my father), but you will have to use it that way too. it worked out quite well actually. I'd say its a about a 1,5k or so "stone"


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## eazypeazy

Mainly ****** stainless ones for now, but plan on getting some nicer stuff in the future, so kinda planning ahead. I work in food, and I don't really have the space/time at work for a stone always, so a rod is probably best for me in most cases.


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## HRC_64

Butchers knives and chef-d-chef type
(beater) knives tend to take to steels
pretty well.


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## Benuser

eazypeazy said:


> Mainly ****** stainless ones for now, but plan on getting some nicer stuff in the future, so kinda planning ahead. I work in food, and I don't really have the space/time at work for a stone always, so a rod is probably best for me in most cases.



You can use a Chosera 2k or so dry as well. Or a piece of Blue Belgian.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Dunno, going to a fine stone with a damaged edge seems to have a risk of leaving you with an even worse edge...


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## Benuser

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Dunno, going to a fine stone with a damaged edge seems to have a risk of leaving you with an even worse edge...



How that?? And if the edge doesn't feel smooth after two strokes you better not insist but migrate to the next coarser one.


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## cheflivengood

Get the smooth mac black ceramic, wouldn't recommend using the grooved part of it. It will work well with any knife you buy as the hardness is well above any knife steel. You CAN use this rod on high end knives including single bevels, just use edge trailing stropping motions, as long as you are not smaking the edge into the rod its more efficient than having a stone on your station as it saves space, is easier to use in said space and is not absorbent, as i'm sure everyone who cooks professionally or at home would not want food stuffs to soak into the stone making it a sanitation and mold growing issue.


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## StonedEdge

Seems to me putting a honing rod to a single bevel would be a quick way to f it up...?


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## Keith Sinclair

Don't know the hardness of Dickoron polishing steel, but measured lite strokes kept my carbon gyuto's going during long prep sessions on plastic boards. Did a lot of trial & error with steels over the years found that a few measured strokes on polishing steels works best. No groves on either steel or ceramic. Prefer the steel because it is bomb proof & works. Diamond steels throw in the trash can.

For home use if good knives don't need a steel at all. At work a small splash & go is better than any steel as eventually with a rod edge will get fatigued, only a stone will tune up the edge.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@Benuser even for home cooking, you want a solution that deescalates, not escalates the bluntness issue at hand  Can only imagine how the pros feel about it...

Though apart from really soft simple knives, I have rarely seen a ceramic rod fix what a newspaper/balsa board to strop could not


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## Benuser

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Benuser even for home cooking, you want a solution that deescalates, not escalates the bluntness issue at hand  Can only imagine how the pros feel about it...
> 
> Though apart from really soft simple knives, I have rarely seen a ceramic rod fix what a newspaper/balsa board to strop could not



Really don't understand. If the edge is damaged you will notice instantly that a very fine stone isn't enough. Reason to go to a coarser one.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

I meant: Setting up a stone is much more of a workflow interruption than using a rod or strop, if you either need the knife and want to continue cooking or want to put it back in good working order and continue.

What I doubt is the blanket statement "harder steel doesn't roll, or is useless to hone/strop back once it has rolled" - I found that a-bit-too-thin hard carbon steel edges (think zero wide-bevel with a tiny primary bevel or even just a microbevel) often very much DO both roll and strop back into alignment easily... might be a case of the misalignment being not at the apex but a bit behind the edge, so approaching wire edge territory?


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## Benuser

I've used Choseras 2&3k dry, even the Junpaku 8k, so no preparation at all. Not sure what means "a misalignment behind the edge" where the edge itself is still straight.


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## chinacats

Hard steel edge doesn't roll, wire edge will.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Apex fine, metal carrying apex bent.


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## Benuser

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Apex fine, metal carrying apex bent.



Hard to imagine, to say the least. The very edge is thinner than a few micron. Behind the edge is fifty to hundred times thicker.


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## cheflivengood

StonedEdge said:


> Seems to me putting a honing rod to a single bevel would be a quick way to f it up...?



Not really, as long as you are being as delicate with the rod as you would be on a very hard natural. Take a freshly sharpened usuba and do a bunch of knife work, no matter the quality it will eventually have trouble cutting through something with tough skin, like tomato. Take a smooth honing rod, like the black mac or ruby whatever, and delicately strop the micro bevel edge trailing, then strop ura side either flat or with a tinny angle, there will be a difference in cutting performance absolutely guaranteed no argument I have done it a million times.


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## Benuser

No experience with single bevels here, but is was my understanding that deburring the ura was made with a very fine stone, 8k or so. Not with a 2k as your rods.


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## cheflivengood

Benuser said:


> No experience with single bevels here, but is was my understanding that deburring the ura was made with a very fine stone, 8k or so. Not with a 2k as your rods.



the mac black is very smooth and in the 80s of HRC, Id say its well beyond 2k in "grit" and it doesn't remove metal to the naked eye. All your doing is moving microscopic burrs into realignment, any material whether smooth or textured that is harder than the knife steel itself will move the burs. And it doesn't matter if its single or double bevel because those are differences in geometry not metallurgy, so if you can hone a double bevel you can just as easily hone a single bevel.


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## RDalman

I saw on the german forum some use a plain steel by dickoron with good results.


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## ThEoRy

cheflivengood said:


> the mac black is very smooth and in the 80s of HRC, Id say its well beyond 2k in "grit" and it doesn't remove metal to the naked eye. All your doing is moving microscopic burrs into realignment, any material whether smooth or textured that is harder than the knife steel itself will move the burs. And it doesn't matter if its single or double bevel because those are differences in geometry not metallurgy, so if you can hone a double bevel you can just as easily hone a single bevel.



The manufacturer claims 81 rockwell and "approximately 2000 grit".


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## Keith Sinclair

cheflivengood said:


> Not really, as long as you are being as delicate with the rod as you would be on a very hard natural. Take a freshly sharpened usuba and do a bunch of knife work, no matter the quality it will eventually have trouble cutting through something with tough skin, like tomato. Take a smooth honing rod, like the black mac or ruby whatever, and delicately strop the micro bevel edge trailing, then strop ura side either flat or with a tinny angle, there will be a difference in cutting performance absolutely guaranteed no argument I have done it a million times.



Cannot argue if it works for you. Don't want to give impression that it is OK to take a rod to a Japanese Single Bevel.:O


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## StonedEdge

I agree that in principle honing a single bevel with a ceramic rod should work...no reason to think otherwise.

I personally wouldn't ever touch a ceramic rod to any of my single bevel knives. Especially not the ura side. Maybe I'm just a panzy that way, tho.


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## cheflivengood

ThEoRy said:


> The manufacturer claims 81 rockwell and "approximately 2000 grit".



They can say its "2k grit" all they want, if I were to rub my finger over a flattened dry 2k stone my skin would come off eventually, this rod is as smooth as marble and has zero metal removing capabilities I guarantee you.


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## Benuser

cheflivengood said:


> They can say its "2k grit" all they want, if I were to rub my finger over a flattened dry 2k stone my skin would come off eventually, this rod is as smooth as marble and has zero metal removing capabilities I guarantee you.



Better see the scratch pattern it leaves.


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## cheflivengood

StonedEdge said:


> I agree that in principle honing a single bevel with a ceramic rod should work...no reason to think otherwise.
> 
> I personally wouldn't ever touch a ceramic rod to any of my single bevel knives. Especially not the ura side. Maybe I'm just a panzy that way, tho.



When I strop the ura side I don't do it completely flat, more like a 2 degree bevel, just enough to straighten the burs from the micro bevel stroping. There is so much mysticism with single bevel knives, there are maybe 50 restaurants in the world where a sushi chef could cut with a knife off a 800 grit stone and one off a nakayama finisher and be able to tell the difference in how the knife is cutting and how it is affecting the fish. In fact I worked with a sushi chef who worked at a 3 michelin sushi restaurant as an apprentice for 5 years in tokyo then moved to sonoma and we met at the now defunct 2 michelin Cyrus. He told me that even the food we were doing there, at cyrus, he would not waste his time going higher than the king XL 800 that we kept in the kitchen. He had a custom set of nenohis, some honyaki, so I trusted him and I think he is right. On the microscopic level there is no difference in stropping on a hard rod or on a hard stone, If they made a natural stone lvl4 hardness in a honing rod form we would all have them, bar none. Its really the fact that people have no idea how to hone combined with the issue of touching a $50 mass produced rod to their $500-$2000 knives.


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## StonedEdge

Cheflivengood I beleive you! I've heard the exact same thing from many people having worked in some very high end Japanese restaurants


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## cheflivengood

StonedEdge said:


> Cheflivengood I beleive you! I've heard the exact same thing from many people having worked in some very high end Japanese restaurants



haha thanks, this just happens to be a topic i'm passionate about.


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## daveb

StonedEdge said:


> I agree that in principle honing a single bevel with a ceramic rod should work...no reason to think otherwise.
> 
> I personally wouldn't ever touch a ceramic rod to any of my single bevel knives. Especially not the ura side. Maybe I'm just a panzy that way, tho.


This. I see much more harm than good from use of rods on hard steel.


cheflivengood said:


> the mac black is very smooth and in the 80s of HRC, Id say its well beyond 2k in "grit" and it doesn't remove metal to the naked eye. All your doing is moving microscopic burrs into realignment, any material whether smooth or textured that is harder than the knife steel itself will move the burs. And it doesn't matter if its single or double bevel because those are differences in geometry not metallurgy, so if you can hone a double bevel you can just as easily hone a single bevel.





RDalman said:


> I saw on the german forum some use a plain steel by dickoron with good results.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@benuser if I put a relatively obtuse edge (think microbevel) on a plate of thin sheet metal, I could likely bite that edge into a plank and proceed to bend the sheet without affecting the edge that much...


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## ThEoRy

cheflivengood said:


> They can say its "2k grit" all they want, if I were to rub my finger over a flattened dry 2k stone my skin would come off eventually, this rod is as smooth as marble and has zero metal removing capabilities I guarantee you.




Well I don't know what to think about that. You're going to have to explain to me what those swarf particles embedded in the rod are after usage that require erasing to clean it. I'd probably like to know if it's not removing material then how improper usage of a ceramic rod causes the overgrind frown just above the heel?


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## cheflivengood

ThEoRy said:


> Well I don't know what to think about that. You're going to have to explain to me what those swarf particles embedded in the rod are after usage that require erasing to clean it. I'd probably like to know if it's not removing material then how improper usage of a ceramic rod causes the overgrind frown just above the heel?



I totally know what you mean, the Mac white ceramics had a fine stone like texture that was still much less aggressive than a diamond rod, those deffinetly removed metal and screwed up some knives. I think I have an idea for a video to show you what i'm talking about, to show how the black ceramic is maybe not as smooth as the f.dick polished stainless hones, but not anywhere near 2k in finish. Ill figure it out tonight.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Maybe it is black so you don't see all the swarf. To compare: the usual IKEA white ceramic rod looks like a pencil lead in no time.


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## Drayquan

Hey, a friend just purchased a new "Dalstrong Chef Knife - Phantom Series - Japanese AUS8 Steel - 8" (is it frowned upon to put amazon product links in this forum?).
He says he'll bring it to me for a proper sharpening after a while of use when it starts to get really dull, but until then he wants a recommendation on a honing rod to maintain it for as long as possible.
I told him to just get his own set of whetstones but that's not happening, he just wants a honing rod for quick maintenance until it needs a full service that he doesn't have to think/care about. 

So I looked up this Dalstrong, it has a rockwell hardness of 58+. 
After reading through this thread, I know he'll just need a rod that's harder than his own blade, I assume 60+ should be ok, but I'm still not sure if I should recommend a ceramic, or a 60+ hardness honing steel.

Dalstrong sells a fairly pricey rod that should be ok, but I imagine there are more affordable options that aren't marked up as high without the dalstrong brand name on them.

Any recommendations would be appreciated, Amazon also preferred if possible.


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## HRC_64

SP2k shapton stone is splash and go and similar grit (2000) to a very fine rod.
Also cost less ($40) than a mack black ($50+). Mac does make the white rod for like $20
if really in a pinch...YMMV of course on what the best path forward is.


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## Benuser

Your friend should know that the factory edge is likely to be both poor and weak. First thing to do is putting a decent edge on it, by stone sharpening  including some thinning right behind the edge.
I really don't like the idea of maintaining coûte que coûte the poor factory edge as long as possible by making it even weaker and fatter behind the edge  and have someone else to solve the problems who have only become bigger.
Not sure a Dalstrong is worth all that effort.


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## panda

cheflivengood said:


> Its really the fact that people have no idea how to hone combined with the issue of touching a $50 mass produced rod to their $500-$2000 knives.



^^^this, 100%

i love my mac black, ive even used it on mizuno honyaki.


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## daveb

Skilled use of a rod can be great for a quick touch up of a Jknife. "Skilled" includes knowing the risk of chipping and using the rod accordingly.

But the Dalstrong cited above is not a quality Jknife. If it sees a rod, any rod, with any regularity it will be receiving more maintenance than the 99% of them that hang on gullible housewives walls. 

You're right that a Dalstrong rod is probably overpriced without any performance advantages. When I last shopped for a rod the DMT Ceramic seemed the best bang for the buck and I'm not sure that's changed. Have heard nothing but postives about the Mac Black over the years.

I would not take on sharpening this as a lifetime project. Would show him once, advise him on stones, offer to help him buy used off of bst and turn him loose. 58 is not going to take or hold much of an edge.


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## chinacats

Any knife at 58'ish you might as well use whatever you've got in your old German knife block.


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## Benuser

The best rod I've used so far is the ruby Sieger Long-life. Leaves a 3k-ish finish, slightly abrasive, gently removes the burr. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A45I2QU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Marek07

Drayquan said:


> Hey, a friend just purchased a new "Dalstrong Chef Knife - Phantom Series - Japanese AUS8 Steel - 8" (is it frowned upon to put amazon product links in this forum?).
> He says he'll bring it to me for a proper sharpening after a while of use when it starts to get really dull, but until then he wants a recommendation on a honing rod to maintain it for as long as possible.
> I told him to just get his own set of whetstones but that's not happening, he just wants a honing rod for quick maintenance until it needs a full service that he doesn't have to think/care about.
> 
> So I looked up this Dalstrong, it has a rockwell hardness of 58+.
> After reading through this thread, I know he'll just need a rod that's harder than his own blade, I assume 60+ should be ok, but I'm still not sure if I should recommend a ceramic, or a 60+ hardness honing steel.
> 
> Dalstrong sells a fairly pricey rod that should be ok, but I imagine there are more affordable options that aren't marked up as high without the dalstrong brand name on them.
> 
> Any recommendations would be appreciated, Amazon also preferred if possible.


As your friend has bought a Dalstrong which is not a high HRC steel, pretty much any honing rod would suit *if* you can't convince him to use stones, I'd still stick to ceramic - who knows what knives he'll buy in future. I agree that the Sieger Long-Life is the best one out there though I recently used a Mac Black and it's no slouch. However, considering the cost of his knife, the Mac White seems like a good buy (_but I've not used it_). I was going to recommend an even cheaper option - the Ikea white ceramic rod (_which I have used_) - but I saw that Ikea Canada does not offer it. 

- footnote for @LifeByA1000Cuts: If a white ceramic rod is starting to look like a pencil lead, just get an eraser and rub it up and down the hone a few times. It'll look new in no time.


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## Nemo

Marek07 said:


> footnote for @LifeByA1000Cuts: If a white ceramic rod is starting to look like a pencil lead, just get an eraser and rub it up and down the hone a few times. It'll look new in no time.



A "magic eraser" type sponge works well for this too.


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## panda

i have the sieger ruby one also, still prefer mac black. mac white is around 1000 grit and is better suited for lower hrc knives like the dalstrong mentioned. this is a less expensive alternative to the mac black that i gifted to a friend of mine. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GG73QUG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Benuser

panda said:


> i have the sieger ruby one also, still prefer mac black. mac white is around 1000 grit and is better suited for lower hrc knives like the dalstrong mentioned. this is a less expensive alternative to the mac black that i gifted to a friend of mine. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GG73QUG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Interesting, Panda. What makes you prefer the Black Mac over the Sieger?


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## panda

Sieger too aggressive, also it's really skinny gotta have girth haha.
I ended up letting the cooks use it as a house rod, of course one of them dropped it and it broke in half.

I've dropped the Mac blk several times and it's still going strong. It's the oldest thing in my kit, been with me almost entire career.


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## Benuser

Thanks, Panda!


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## bennyprofane

Keith Sinclair said:


> Don't know the hardness of Dickoron polishing steel, but measured lite strokes kept my carbon gyuto's going during long prep sessions on plastic boards. Did a lot of trial & error with steels over the years found that a few measured strokes on polishing steels works best. No groves on either steel or ceramic. Prefer the steel because it is bomb proof & works. Diamond steels throw in the trash can.
> 
> For home use if good knives don't need a steel at all. At work a small splash & go is better than any steel as eventually with a rod edge will get fatigued, only a stone will tune up the edge.



The Dickorons are around 70HRC and they are good for quickly putting an arm shaving sharp edge on a knife upto 65 HRC provided that it's not too chippy (especially when that hard). They work especially well for carbon knives upto 60 HRC (for example Herder or Sabatier). Of course, the resulting edge does not compare to a proper stone finish but it's a very viable solution which works so well that the question can be raised of why to go through the trouble of sharpening with stones (if you don't have fondness for the process). Stones will give you a finer and longer lasting edge but the steeling does work very well.

This is a microscopic picture of a Takamura Blazen (R2 pm steel) sharpened for two weeks on a Dickoron Micro: http://up.picr.de/32495352yo.jpg 

And this is a Herder 1922 (60 HRC carbon steel) which was never sharpened on stones and sharpened for 2 years in a pro kitchen with a Dickoron Classic: http://up.picr.de/32485341kr.jpg (Thanks to Suntravel & Cor from KMS for the pictures.)

A steeled edge will last much shorter than one made on stones but it will take you just a few seconds to get it back to shaving sharpness.

The Dickoron Classic (Sapphire Cut) & Micro is the perfect combo to be used in a progression with the Micro being finer and only polishing and the Classic being coarser and very slightly abrasive. Just one of them by itself will also work well.

I still greatly prefer stones by a magnitude but find the usage of these two steels quite appealing and am fascinated how well they work.

This is how to use it: https://youtu.be/-n7Pr-_HfZs?t=26s

As to the OP's question: when it comes to rods I prefer steel and don't like ceramics. I had the Sieger Long Life but sold it since I wasn't fond of using it, nor did I get very good results. I do believe that the Sieger is a good product, it just wasn't for me.


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## Drayquan

Is this standard price for a Mac Black?

Check out this awesome Canadian listing, (I'm from Toronto):
https://www.amazon.ca/Mac-Black-Ceramic-Honing-Rod
Listed as $201 Canadian which is approx. $152 USD

This has to be a mistake right? LOL

I assume that Canadian listing is an error. 
I'm seeing this on the US Amazon only for $54 USD:
https://www.amazon.com/Mac-Knife-Ceramic-Honing
This is more along the lines of what many of you are praising, right?


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## daveb

I've only experienced Amazon US but anyone can put a product on there for whatever price they like. The vendor that's supplying the Mac on the ca website is probably doing that. Don't think it's a mistake - just gotta look for a different vendor.

Quick look at ca site shows some dmt steels and a couple unknown ceramic rods that don't look bad.


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## ThEoRy

That's pretty whack. Highest price I've seen the Mac is like $58.


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## valgard

Drayquan said:


> Is this standard price for a Mac Black?
> 
> Check out this awesome Canadian listing, (I'm from Toronto):
> https://www.amazon.ca/Mac-Black-Ceramic-Honing-Rod
> Listed as $201 Canadian which is approx. $152 USD
> 
> This has to be a mistake right? LOL
> 
> I assume that Canadian listing is an error.
> I'm seeing this on the US Amazon only for $54 USD:
> https://www.amazon.com/Mac-Knife-Ceramic-Honing
> This is more along the lines of what many of you are praising, right?



Pretty common to get the same products on Amazon.ca for even twice the price as amazon.com. Some times, when shipping to Canada is an option, even with hefty shipping and customs it's cheaper to buy from .com, but we don't get nearly as competitive prices on amazon as the US.


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## Jville

I'm a idahone guy. The white one. I like it better than the Mac. I've used them both and the idahone definitely seems finer and better. I had someone use the idahone that had a Mac and they said they preferred the idahone also. Plus it's cheap, phenemonal value imo.


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## Furminati

I use the black knifewear one and its great. I cant attest for the grit comparison. But it works and feels really good. Ive used some that are just way too coarse


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## rick alen

bennyprofane said:


> The Dickorons are around 70HRC and they are good for quickly putting an arm shaving sharp edge on a knife upto 65 HRC provided that it's not too chippy (especially when that hard). They work especially well for carbon knives upto 60 HRC (for example Herder or Sabatier). Of course, the resulting edge does not compare to a proper stone finish but it's a very viable solution which works so well that the question can be raised of why to go through the trouble of sharpening with stones (if you don't have fondness for the process). Stones will give you a finer and longer lasting edge but the steeling does work very well.
> 
> This is a microscopic picture of a Takamura Blazen (R2 pm steel) sharpened for two weeks on a Dickoron Micro: http://up.picr.de/32495352yo.jpg
> 
> And this is a Herder 1922 (60 HRC carbon steel) which was never sharpened on stones and sharpened for 2 years in a pro kitchen with a Dickoron Classic: http://up.picr.de/32485341kr.jpg (Thanks to Suntravel & Cor from KMS for the pictures.)
> 
> A steeled edge will last much shorter than one made on stones but it will take you just a few seconds to get it back to shaving sharpness.
> 
> The Dickoron Classic (Sapphire Cut) & Micro is the perfect combo to be used in a progression with the Micro being finer and only polishing and the Classic being coarser and very slightly abrasive. Just one of them by itself will also work well.
> 
> I still greatly prefer stones by a magnitude but find the usage of these two steels quite appealing and am fascinated how well they work.
> 
> This is how to use it: https://youtu.be/-n7Pr-_HfZs?t=26s
> 
> As to the OP's question: when it comes to rods I prefer steel and don't like ceramics. I had the Sieger Long Life but sold it since I wasn't fond of using it, nor did I get very good results. I do believe that the Sieger is a good product, it just wasn't for me.




Without adequate validation can you really believe the edge actually produced is as fine as shown in these photos?


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## Benuser

Constant use of a rod will result in a modified geometry, in thickening behind the edge and turning a convex edge into a straight one with a pronounced shoulder, resulting in performance loss.


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## bennyprofane

rick alen said:


> Without adequate validation can you really believe the edge actually produced is as fine as shown in these photos?




Here is the kind of progression this knife (from the upper example) most likely went through before being touched up with the Dickoron (this is how the user suntravel usually sharpens):

up.picr.de/29598001rc.jpg

up.picr.de/29598016di.jpg

up.picr.de/29598022wv.jpg

up.picr.de/29598036kr.jpg

up.picr.de/30313572xa.jpg

"Kreuzblume" is the knife and "DMD" stands for these ceramic diamond stones, they are very fast on any steel but considerably coarser then other stones with the same grit. "Dia" stands for diamond spray on leather and "LF" for lapping film. The edge in the last picture is again the Takamura Blazen, the same knife which was in the Dickoron picture of my first post.

Taking that into consideration, the picture of the steeled edge makes sense.


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## bahamaroot

I have the Idahone in 12", like it much better than the Mac Black and it's $20 cheaper. The Idahone is rated at 1200 ANSI which is close to 3k JIS.


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