# Edge Performance in food vs. "tests"



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 20, 2017)

Hi Everyone,

So I'm a bit stumped by an interesting observation about some of my edges and how they perform in food vs. cutting tests like shaving arm hair and cutting paper towels and thought you guys might be able to enlighten me on it.

Right now I've got two knives that I sharpened, one was finished with a JNS 6k synthetic and the other with a natural Aizu. Both were sharpened the same way, one is an 8in Sab Carbon Chefs and the other is a 10in, basically the same knife just different sizes.

The one finished with the Aizu seems to do better with my little cutting tests like I can shave some arm hair with it and cut paper towel fairly easily. The JNS 6k finished one sucks at these tests, won't shave worth a damn and is medicore on the paper towel BUT the JNS edge is an absolute monster through food. Pepper sounds, tomato, apples, anything tricky I can throw at it I have and it's a massacre, it's halfway through the food before I realize I've cut it. 

The Aizu edge on the other hand, is still an outstanding edge but it isn't going through stuff like the JNS, it seems like it takes a little more to get the edge going into the food.

So what I'm wondering about is why this difference and why may an edge suck at cutting tests but perform outstanding in food? Note that both edges feel a bit stick in my thumb nail so it's not like one is totally smooth vs. very toothy.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 20, 2017)

As a further note, this seems to be a trend for me with synthetic stones vs. naturals. The natural edges I create tend to do better in my cutting tests while the sythetics perform poor (won't cut hair, skipping along paper surface etc...) yet in actual food performance both give me pretty satisfactory results.


----------



## StonedEdge (Jul 20, 2017)

That's rather strange that the blade sharpened on synthetic is noticeably less sharp than the one done on the jnats. Maybe your technique on sythetics is less good than your technique on jnats?


----------



## Barmoley (Jul 20, 2017)

I've noticed this difference between tests and real food performance too. My theory is two fold. First, I think we are cutting differently when cutting food and when cutting paper, hair, etc. When I test edges on paper or shaving I use more of a pure push cut, but when I cut food there is at least some slicing motion in addition to the push cutting motion. Even though both edges don't feel different to you they probably are, one being toothier than the other just enough to make the difference. So since the edges are different the cutting technique magnifies this difference. Second, paper, hair, etc are different enough from produce that edges that work better on food might not work as well on test material. Fine, but toothy edges seem to work best on food for me.


----------



## mikaelsan (Jul 20, 2017)

its funny how it can be like this, i found for me i always keep learning new things about sharpening, and i thought i had gotten decent through the last few years. 
Turns out im not as consistant as i thourght i was, and recently i have learned that i am not as good at deburring as i thought i was, so results can vary a bit.
Getting back to the point, edge-not-touching-the-skin-hair-popping can be done on fairly low grits as well, if propperly deburred, while a slightly flawed but more refined edge that feels sharper on food can sometimes lack the ability to shave. 
I also have a feeling that some nats might be easier to deburr/reduce burr on then synths, i have recently got a king s1 6000, my first synth +5000 grit, and i was surprised at how hard it was to reduce the burr with it


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 20, 2017)

Interesting points, the inefficient de-burring was something I had considered for why the "rough" feeling to the edge when attempting to shave hairs. 

It is possible that the Aizu is doing a better job of removing the burr compared to the JNS 6k since my normal de-burring technique is the same. I follow all my sharpening with a few light strops on some balsa wood (plain balsa).


----------



## shownomarci (Jul 20, 2017)

I've noticed that overly polished edges are skidding on certain foods, whilst less polished ones 'bite' into the food.
If the 6k stone doesn't make the knife shaving sharp, then step back to 1-3k.
As for the deburring i always use a cork.


----------



## fatboylim (Jul 20, 2017)

I have similar experiences and my only explanation is it's a comparison between polished vs. toothy edge. To fix this issue, I use the dry strop on a Arashiyama 6000 to bring back some bite to a polished blade. Some knives I will finish on the Arashiyama rather than go j-nat polished to ensure a toothier finish.

Strangely I have no issues with a j-nat polished blade on screening sharp shirogami carbon blades. It still cuts through everything. 

With Aogami Super I need a bit more of a toothy edge. I'm still experimenting with blue 2 to find my favourite finish.


----------



## Ruso (Jul 20, 2017)

It looks like you are doing something "wrong" if you can't shave arm hair after a 6K. I would start with developing a shaving sharp edge on the synth and then compare to the natural.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 20, 2017)

Here's the thing, it's performing excellently in food so I'm unsure what is wrong so to speak. As in, it fails some of the "sharpness tests" but it cuts like crazy in food. My edge (from the synth) isn't shaving sharp at all but it performs better in food than the "shaving sharp edge" from the natural.

I've over polished edges before (Naniwa Super Stone 12k) so I know what it feels like when an edge runs or skids on the surface of say a carrot or tomato. Neither of my edges is doing that at all. They both perform well and seem to cut into the food right away, it's just that the synthetic edge which can't shave is, excuse the overused expression, cutting into stuff like a laser. The natural edge is a tiny bit more hesitant but still one of the best edges I've ever made myself.


----------



## panda (Jul 20, 2017)

did you swap stones on both knives? it could just be difference in the knives itself.. by the way, all those 'sharpness tests' are stupid, how it performs while cutting actual food is the only part that matters.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 21, 2017)

panda said:


> did you swap stones on both knives? it could just be difference in the knives itself.. by the way, all those 'sharpness tests' are stupid, how it performs while cutting actual food is the only part that matters.



That might be it. It seems to me that those shaving hair/cutting papel towel tests only show how the edge was sharpened while cutting food depends also on the geometry of the blade.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 21, 2017)

I actually didn't swap stones, something I may try this weekend if I get a chance. I guess I wouldn't have assumed too much about performance of knife itself given that both are very similar albiet different sizes. That said though this may be true if one is thinner behind the edge or something.

Appreciate all the suggestions and info everyone


----------



## inzite (Jul 21, 2017)

SolidSnake03 said:


> I actually didn't swap stones, something I may try this weekend if I get a chance. I guess I wouldn't have assumed too much about performance of knife itself given that both are very similar albiet different sizes. That said though this may be true if one is thinner behind the edge or something.
> 
> Appreciate all the suggestions and info everyone



initial bite would be the actual edge, everything that follows through the cut and the feeling of it is probably geometry.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 21, 2017)

Well the initial bite is better on the JNS 6k in regards to it essentially sinking into the food at first touch. So that discounts the behind the edge thinking I had. Appreciate the info


----------



## Benuser (Jul 21, 2017)

panda said:


> did you swap stones on both knives? it could just be difference in the knives itself.. by the way, all those 'sharpness tests' are stupid, how it performs while cutting actual food is the only part that matters.


Language problem on my side. What does mean "to swap stones"?


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 21, 2017)

I think he means switch which knife was finished with which stone to make sure it isn't the knives themselves causing the difference.


----------



## Benuser (Jul 21, 2017)

SolidSnake03 said:


> I think he means switch which knife was finished with which stone to make sure it isn't the knives themselves causing the difference.


Thanks!


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 24, 2017)

Bried update, I switched the stones so that I sharpened each knife with the other stone from last time and same thing. Could tell which was the JNS 6K because it sucked in paper but great on food. The Aizu edge did well on both things.


----------



## panda (Jul 24, 2017)

What you have learned now is to not bother with paper cutting.


----------



## KJDedge (Jul 25, 2017)

Unless he's making origami


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 27, 2017)

Valid points, it was about correlation of the results from food edge to cutting other things. I was trying to get a better understanding of why one would be great at something and poor at the other.


----------



## Lars (Jul 27, 2017)

This is terrible, because I have way more invested in stones than knives, but when I keep it really simple, like JNS1K to JNS Aoto Matakusuyama I get edges that cuts better and lasts longer than when I was using more stones in the progression.
Sure, less stones less opportunity for mistakes is very valid for me, but still - this have been working for me lately.
Only with steels that are hard to sharpen, will I resort to more stones and strops for finishing and deburring. 
Of course this will all change again, but for know it really works for me to keep it simple.

Lars


----------



## Barmoley (Jul 27, 2017)

Does JNS Aoto Matakusuyama work well on different types of steels? I know it works well on simple carbon steels, but what about stainless or more alloyed carbon steels?


----------



## hmansion (Jul 27, 2017)

inzite said:


> initial bite would be the actual edge, everything that follows through the cut and the feeling of it is probably geometry.



A concise and helpful comment - added to my sharpening "mental database" :thumbsup:


----------



## Triggaaar (Jul 27, 2017)

Lars said:


> This is terrible, because I have way more invested in stones than knives, but when I keep it really simple, like JNS1K to JNS Aoto Matakusuyama I get edges that cuts better and lasts longer than when I was using more stones in the progression.


Ah, you're the man I've been looking for 

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/33573-JNS-Red-Aoto-vs-JNS-6000


----------



## Lars (Jul 28, 2017)

Barmoley said:


> Does JNS Aoto Matakusuyama work well on different types of steels? I know it works well on simple carbon steels, but what about stainless or more alloyed carbon steels?



Imo it works great on quality stainless. I have a knife made from AEB-L that I assume is poorly heat treated and that one is a pain to sharpen no matter what stones I use.
On the other hand my Itinommon stainless is as easy to sharpen as a proper carbon steel knife and the Aoto works great for that.

Lars


----------



## Lars (Jul 28, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Ah, you're the man I've been looking for
> 
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/33573-JNS-Red-Aoto-vs-JNS-6000



Have never tried the JNS Red Aoto, but the JNS6K leaves some bite for sure. Quite the opposite of e.g. Super Stone 5K.

Lars


----------



## Triggaaar (Jul 28, 2017)

Lars said:


> Have never tried the JNS Red Aoto


Ah, my mistake.


> but the JNS6K leaves some bite for sure.


Thanks.


> Quite the opposite of e.g. Super Stone 5K.


I don't know that stone :O


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 29, 2017)

Brief update, just got an edge that shaves very nicely and passes all my silly sharpness tests. Also it cuts very nicely. Fun thing, it was on my cheapest knife.

Tojiro ITK Nakiri 165mm
Stone progression was Naniwa Chosera 800 --> Naniwa Snow White 8k. Used a cork to deburr between stones and after the Snow White. Didn't strop after sharpening.

The Snow White cuts incredibly fast for it's grit, inky black swarf all over from maybe a minute of sharpening. Also makes a huge mess


----------



## Benuser (Jul 29, 2017)

Naniwa Pro 800 + Junpaku. I like it.


----------



## Nemo (Jul 29, 2017)

Benuser said:


> Naniwa Pro 800 + Junpaku. I like it.



Good to know. I do like the Chosera 1000 then Junpaku progression, which I assume would give a fairly similar edge.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 30, 2017)

The edge from this combo is monstrous, the 800 itself leaves a nice edge but finishing on it always seemed "too rough" for my tastes. The Snow White fixes that nicely but still keeps a heck of a lot of those teeth from the 800, 2Lb of cherry tomatos didn't stand a chance.

I've used the Chosera 1k a lot too and ultimately ended up with the 800 because it seemed to cut a little faster and didn't make such a mess with green gunk everywhere 

That said I do remember the edges from the 800 and 1000 feeling pretty similar overall. The 1k was a little less "board biting rip tomatos apart by just touching them" but still great. I did sometimes finish on the 1k and was happy with that edge after a little stropping. I'm sure going 1k to Snow White does give you very nice results.

What I'm finding is I actually really like the Chosera 800 when used with a large jump from it like with the Snow White or going right to a natural. The Chosera 800 --> Aizu leaves a very nice edge as well. It's interesting because I never really like the Chosera 800 --> 3k --> 5k series or when going to my JKI 6k from it but going right to a natural or to the 8k Snow White seem to leave outstanding edges for my preferences at least.


----------



## panda (Jul 30, 2017)

i have cho800 and it's quite good, but king hyper 1k is even better.

hyper+aizu is a killer combo.


----------



## K813zra (Jul 30, 2017)

panda said:


> i have cho800 and it's quite good, but king hyper 1k is even better.
> 
> hyper+aizu is a killer combo.



That sounds like a killer combo edge wise but I think I would be in pain when it comes to sharpening feel. :bigeek: My Aizu (I have three) all leave a killer edge but I just don't get into sharpening on them.


----------



## panda (Jul 30, 2017)

??? aizu has incredible feel.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 30, 2017)

Where did you get your king 1k hyper? I might buy one and try it out. Is the king hyper 1k splash and go as well? That's part of what I really like about the Chosera 800 and Snow White


----------



## panda (Jul 30, 2017)

Ebay. It's a soaker. Just permasoak it.


----------



## K813zra (Jul 30, 2017)

panda said:


> ??? aizu has incredible feel.



Not to me. I prefer much softer muddier stones! I do love the edge though.


----------



## panda (Jul 30, 2017)

you would enjoy red aoto and hakka


----------



## K813zra (Jul 30, 2017)

panda said:


> you would enjoy red aoto and hakka



I hear that a lot. I seem to have bad luck with hakka, though. I miss out on the koppa that Maxim gets, every time. CKTG had some recently as well but I missed those too! Full size ones come up on BST but most of the time they are very, very pricey! I need to start up a hakka savings jar or I will never get one. I just blew through my stone fund for the next 3-5 months anyway as I dropped 500$ on stones last month and 600$ this month. My wife is understanding but if I buy any more I might be in the dog house.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 30, 2017)

Thanks for the eBay tip, really not a soaker fan but I might give it a shot.


----------



## Badgertooth (Jul 30, 2017)

panda said:


> i have cho800 and it's quite good, but king hyper 1k is even better.
> 
> hyper+aizu is a killer combo.




[emoji109]&#127996;
Maybe my favourite edge


----------



## 42537703 (Oct 1, 2017)

Is the king 1k hyper good for sharpening stainless steel like Sg2, Aebl , Vg10 steels at 62-3Hrc? I know it is very good for wide bevel kasumi finish.


----------



## KimBronnum (Oct 1, 2017)

I generally find synthetic stones leave a way toothier edge compared to Jnats. This gives the feeling of biting into food - esp. peppers & tomatoes more so than an edge froma Jnat. I think this is the case with your observation. 
- Kim


----------



## zitangy (Oct 2, 2017)

42537703 said:


> Is the king 1k hyper good for sharpening stainless steel like Sg2, Aebl , Vg10 steels at 62-3Hrc? I know it is very good for wide bevel kasumi finish.




it cuts fast and if you get its full apex.. it will not disappoint you. Most of the Aebl out here are rated ard 59/60 hrc. I wld say that its my best 1000grit as compared to King, Naniwa and Shapton ( not glass). Maybe it suits my quirkiness in sharpening..

For new knives..esp those that is not optimum sharpness,, a quick session on teh Hyper 1000 followed by by CNAT rated at 2000/3000( chinese natural stones) medium hard ... its done. Honyakis included...wch most of them has a rating 63 and above... and if polishing is required for single bevels... a quick session on 5k/10k superstone .. combo... all long alternating strokes...... done

I like to soak my stones before use imagining that i wld get the right texture, feel and performance..

definitely worth getting stoned...

rgds z


----------



## JBroida (Oct 2, 2017)

the truth is that even the most basic stones can sharpen pretty much anything.... a king deluxe can sharpen ZDP, HAP40, etc. People spend money on preference and convenience... cutting speed, tactile feel, etc.


----------



## unprofessional_chef (Oct 2, 2017)

JBroida said:


> the truth is that even the most basic stones can sharpen pretty much anything.... a king deluxe can sharpen ZDP, HAP40, etc. People spend money on preference and convenience... cutting speed, tactile feel, etc.



well said


----------

