# In market for a Gyuto, need good edge retention



## Kumar (Jan 29, 2015)

LOCATION
What country are you in?
INDIA

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chef's Knife - Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
210mm or 240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
300-400$


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing Veggies, Chopping Vegies, Slicing Meats and Poultry

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
None

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch Grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Rocking, Cutting, Slicing

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)


Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
Lighter the better

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Able to use right out of the box

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
This is main thing I want, maximum edge retention.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Wood

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
No. Send to sharpening shop.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

THANKS!


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## chinacats (Jan 29, 2015)

Greetings! 

If you aren't sick on a wa handle, I'd suggest a Gesshin Kagero. 

No matter your choice until you learn to sharpen I'd be very careful about who I would send a nice J-blade. Most will perform best with waterstone sharpening.

Cheers


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## chefcomesback (Jan 29, 2015)

Tanaka r2


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## Matus (Jan 29, 2015)

Yep - I would not get $400 knife as my first Japanese knife. The advice above is a sound one. Also check out Yoshikane SKD knives or Zakuri in super blue (more robust blade). But definitely reserve budget for a few stones and start to lear sharpening (carbon knives are nicer/easier to learn on though). If you are about to learn sharpening a smaller knife than 240mm gyuto may be easier for the first steps. It would be ideal if you could get your hands on some simpler/oder/used carbon blade (but not a necessity).

Tanaka R2 is really nice (had one in the past), but a very thin knife (laser) and may not be the best first knife.


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## ThEoRy (Jan 29, 2015)

Matus said:


> Tanaka R2 is really nice (had one in the past), but a very thin knife (laser) and may not be the best first knife.



I must have done things wrong as it was my first gyuto lol...


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## Artichoke (Jan 29, 2015)

I am also in the market for my first gyuto and am planning a trip to JKI next Monday.

Why might a very thin knife not be the best choice for my first gyuto?

Thanks!

(We now return to Kumar's thread already in progress.)


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## Ruso (Jan 29, 2015)

Tanaka R2
Akifusa SRS15 = Haruyuki SRS15 = Artisan SRS15
Kohetsu HAP40

Among others are known for good edge retention.


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## LKH9 (Jan 29, 2015)

> Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
> No. Send to sharpening shop.



Are you really sure the 'pro's' there can do that properly to a Japanese knife?


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## Dusty (Jan 29, 2015)

Edge retention on the Yoshikane SKD is extremely good, it holds onto a toothy aggressive edge for what seems like forever.

But that knife and pretty much any of the knives mentioned here are just not suited to being sent away to a sharpening shop. 

With great knives comes great responsibility - if you're going to spend some serious money on a knife, then you need to spend the time to learn to sharpen on waterstones.

If you're budget is $400, you could buy the Yoshi, or an Akifusa or many other great knives and still have enough money for a couple of stones.


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## Benuser (Jan 29, 2015)

No rock-chopping, please.


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## Kumar (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks, I will invest in some stones too. So keep the suggestions coming.


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## Kumar (Jan 30, 2015)

Matus said:


> Yep - I would not get $400 knife as my first Japanese knife. The advice above is a sound one. Also check out Yoshikane SKD knives or Zakuri in super blue (more robust blade). But definitely reserve budget for a few stones and start to lear sharpening (carbon knives are nicer/easier to learn on though). If you are about to learn sharpening a smaller knife than 240mm gyuto may be easier for the first steps. It would be ideal if you could get your hands on some simpler/oder/used carbon blade (but not a necessity).
> 
> Tanaka R2 is really nice (had one in the past), but a very thin knife (laser) and may not be the best first knife.



Is this the Zakuri - http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...akuri/zakuri-270mm-blue-1-kurouchi-gyuto.html

?

Thanks


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 30, 2015)

If edge retention is primordial, Takeda could be a good option. Mine takes months on my home use routine to loose its edge.
More important than edge retention is to learn how to sharpen your knives, though.
Another option is Watanabe. Its pro line is more of a workhorse knife, not very thin, but very nice in my opinion. I like its edge retention also. The 210mm gyuto is an onion killer! http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/
Good luck in your quest!


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## ThEoRy (Jan 30, 2015)

I'll give another vote for Kagero. How bout a Blazen pm as well? Theres also Takamura pm too I believe.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 30, 2015)

Kumar said:


> Thanks, I will invest in some stones too. So keep the suggestions coming.



Good move would not trust sharpening service + your knife will get trained to your sharpening style. Jon at Japanese Knife Imports sells the Kagaro SRS-15 steel excellent edge retention. He also has on line sharpening video's to get you on your way.


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## krx927 (Jan 30, 2015)

LKH9 said:


> Are you really sure the 'pro's' there can do that properly to a Japanese knife?



I remember my Indian friend saying how the sparks are flying all around the numerous Indian sharpeners using the wheels. That's a big no no with the knife you want to get.


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## Matus (Jan 30, 2015)

Kumar said:


> Is this the Zakuri - http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...akuri/zakuri-270mm-blue-1-kurouchi-gyuto.html
> 
> ?
> 
> Thanks



Correct, That is one in blue#1 steel. JKI also offer Zakuri knives in super-blue steel which will have somewhat better edge retention. I have not used Zakuri knives, but the edge retention of my Masakage Koishi (also super blue) is really good. 

But I would also join the camp that recommends you PM steels (PM stands for "powder metallurgy") as they will probably have even better edge retention. Just call Jon and ask.


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## daveb (Jan 30, 2015)

When it comes to sharpening Japanese knives the only difference between you doing it and most professional sharpeners doing it is that You know that you don't know what you're doing. Most pro's will give it the same grind and go that works for them on the 100+ knives they do every day. Suggest you get a rock and a knife and start learning. If nothing else it's a fun ride.


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## LKH9 (Jan 30, 2015)

krx927 said:


> I remember my Indian friend saying how the sparks are flying all around the numerous Indian sharpeners using the wheels. That's a big no no with the knife you want to get.



This is the thing that comes into mind when I asked this. No one knows how to do it by hand anymore, the sacred art is lost, the "pros" I mean.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jan 30, 2015)

Well most cooks I've worked with still freehand sharpen on whetstones.


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## jaybett (Jan 31, 2015)

One of the nice things about being a home cook is that most Japanese knives will hold their edge for a long time. Much longer then their western counter parts. 

The advantage of using a vendor from the forum is that they know what people on the forums want. They take that information and work with the vendors to develop knives, for knife enthusiasts or nuts. Vendors have the experience that can help a customer make a good decision with their purchase. 

I don't know what shipping charges or import fee their are to India. If they are high you might want to look at Japanese Chef Knife. Not a forum vendor, but a trusted one. He subsidizes the cost of shipping and knows how to get knives through customs with minimal charges.

To echo what others have said, learning how to sharpen is the most important knife skill. 

Good luck with your purchase. 

Jay


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## gatzgatz (Jan 31, 2015)

Stay away from stainless, and you'll be okay. High-carbon steel should generally retain the edge for a long time, if it's sharpened correctly.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Bobby


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 31, 2015)

gatzgatz said:


> Stay away from stainless, and you'll be okay. High-carbon steel should generally retain the edge for a long time, if it's sharpened correctly.
> 
> 
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Bobby



Sorry, but that is utter nonsense.


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## daveb (Jan 31, 2015)

Timthebeaver said:


> Sorry, but that is utter nonsense.



I was trying to think of a way to say that tactfully.... Maybe clarity is the better choice.

I like stainless for people buying their first "good" knife and I've found that most of the time stainless clad works for me.


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## krx927 (Jan 31, 2015)

daveb said:


> I was trying to think of a way to say that tactfully.... Maybe clarity is the better choice.
> 
> I like stainless for people buying their first "good" knife and I've found that most of the time stainless clad works for me.



I completely agree with this! It's kind of hard to ask newbie to take all that normal care or the knife (treating it properly, not cutting on hard surfaces, avoid bones, avoid twisting edge/scraping with edge...) + take care of the rust issue.

This was the reason why my first purchase ( and a few next ones) were (semi) stainless steel Japanse knives.

On the other hand now that I jumped in carbon, it's not that much different except constant wiping of the knife.


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 31, 2015)

daveb said:


> I was trying to think of a way to say that tactfully.... Maybe clarity is the better choice.
> 
> I like stainless for people buying their first "good" knife and I've found that most of the time stainless clad works for me.



Apologies, maybe that was a little acerbic. Didn't want the OP to be mislead though.


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## James (Jan 31, 2015)

gatzgatz said:


> It's not true that stainless steel doesn't keep its edge as long? It seemed that was a priority for the OP, since you know, it's in the title.



That may have been the case a few decades ago, but stainless steels have taken huge strides forward.


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## Fritzkrieg (Jan 31, 2015)

gatzgatz said:


> It's not true that stainless steel doesn't keep its edge as long? It seemed that was a priority for the OP, since you know, it's in the title.



Heat treatment is definitely a thing. I'd take maxed out AEB-L at 61HRC over an old carbon Sabatier any day!

Further, one area of distinction is ease of sharpening. *Traditionally,* carbon steel blades are easier to sharpen. There are exceptions, of course.


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## chinacats (Jan 31, 2015)

Fritzkrieg said:


> Heat treatment is definitely a thing. I'd take maxed out AEB-L at 61HRC over an old carbon Sabatier any day!
> 
> Further, one area of distinction is ease of sharpening. *Traditionally,* carbon steel blades are easier to sharpen. There are exceptions, of course.



Speak for yourself, but I'd take the old carbon sab any day--and some days I do just that. It's just a personal preference--I'm not a fan of AEB-l or any other stainless. In fact as I recall, AEB-l is not that great a steel (on Gator's site it's not a standout steel) unless it's done by someone that happens to do it especially well (DT, Marko, etc). My preference on the stainless side if you have to go there is a pm steel which will outperform any of the 'super' stainless. SRS-15 in the Kagero or Akifusa will hold an edge forever even with serious (citrus) abuse.


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## ThEoRy (Jan 31, 2015)

gatzgatz said:


> Stay away from stainless, and you'll be okay. High-carbon steel should generally retain the edge for a long time, if it's sharpened correctly.
> 
> 
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Bobby



My Tanaka R2 Pm gyutos at 64 HRC disagree with you.


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## Matus (Jan 31, 2015)

I would even go as far as saying that modern, hi-tech stainless steels (which often are made with PM process) will outperform on the edge holding side carbon steel we seen in kitchen knives. The reason for that is not with the carbon steels themselves, but because there is no comparable development of staining steels for knives as there is with stainless steels - at least in recent past decades. Still - edge holding of well heat treaded carbon steels is excellent and will last several months of home use. My super blue Masakage Koishi does.


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## Kumar (Jan 31, 2015)

What is this super blue steel? I only see Blue #1 and Blue#2 on sites. Is Super Blue same as Super Aogami?


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 31, 2015)

Kumar said:


> What is this super blue steel? I only see Blue #1 and Blue#2 on sites. Is Super Blue same as Super Aogami?



Yes.

Aogami = blue paper - the colour of the label used at the Hitachi (Yasuki) steelworks iirc.


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## the_edge (Jan 31, 2015)

Tojiro F-521 is great!


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## LKH9 (Feb 1, 2015)

@Kumar,

I suggest that you start out with a much cheaper Japanese knife first before investing in a 300-400$ knife, since you said that you don't sharpen your own knives. Might as well buy a cheap set of waterstones together, this I recommend Metalmaster from eBay. Please, don't rely on your local 'sharpening shops', they are knife-destroyers, looked down upon by any knifenuts.

Because I get the picture that you want a knife with the best edge retention so that you don't have to send it to sharpeners that often.


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## salmonkiller (Feb 1, 2015)

Matus said:


> I would even go as far as saying that modern, hi-tech stainless steels (which often are made with PM process) will outperform on the edge holding side carbon steel we seen in kitchen knives. The reason for that is not with the carbon steels themselves, but because there is no comparable development of staining steels for knives as there is with stainless steels - at least in recent past decades. Still - edge holding of well heat treaded carbon steels is excellent and will last several months of home use. My super blue Masakage Koishi does.


I agree with your very good explanation.


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Feb 3, 2015)

+1 Masakage Koishi. Even my Masakage Yuki holds an edge far better than white #2 should. A great value and damn near a steal when you can find them on sale. I'm fighting temptation right now.


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## rick alen (Feb 3, 2015)

Definitely the Geshin Kagero over the Akifusa, better grind and FF.


Rick


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## chinacats (Feb 3, 2015)

Tall Dark and Swarfy said:


> +1 Masakage Koishi. Even my Masakage Yuki holds an edge far better than white #2 should. A great value and damn near a steal when you can find them on sale. I'm fighting temptation right now.



May be good for white 2, but the op specifically needs good edge retention--not in relation to other white 2 but other steels/knives...


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## Arty (Feb 4, 2015)

How does the edge retention of Tanaka R2 compare with that of most blades in VG10, e.g.Tojiro or others? Is edge stability good, or does the blade chip out when cutting on a wooden board?
How hard is the R2 to sharpen? This may be heretical, but I often wind up using a 1X30" belt sander for a dull edge, especially if it is in a stainless that is hard to sharpen, like S35V. Then I go to stones. If I am careful, I can get by for a long time just with a strop.


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## Matus (Feb 4, 2015)

Even though I had Tanaka in R2 and have Tojiro DP in VG-10 now I can not give you much info how they directly compare when it comes to edge stability. The Tanaka was laser gyuto and the Tojiro is a santoku (not that thin one). The VG-10 from Tojiro is OK to sharpen and to deburr (Shun Classic VG-10 is/was worse in that regard IMO). The Tanaka was very easy to sharpen - very comparable to carbon steel, IMO. I did not have problems to deburr it either, even though I was just starting with sharpening at that time.

No experience with S35V (one sees it mostly in outdoor or 'tactical' knives which have much different geometry), but that should be one tough steel.


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## Kumar (Feb 4, 2015)

Masakage Koishi line looks good.

Now just to find a site that delivers to either UK or India.


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## Matus (Feb 4, 2015)

https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk is in UK and they do carry the Masakage Koshi line. That is where I bought mine too. Check them out - my experience (I had quite a few questions back then) was positive.


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## Kumar (Feb 4, 2015)

Matus said:


> https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk is in UK and they do carry the Masakage Koshi line. That is where I bought mine too. Check them out - my experience (I had quite a few questions back then) was positive.



Yea, found that. Out of stock at the moment though.

Thanks!


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## Benuser (Feb 4, 2015)

Kumar said:


> Now just to find a site that delivers to either UK or India.


If you get delivered outside the EU you shouldn't pay VAT.


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## CutFingers (Feb 4, 2015)

Another vote for Tanaka...Get a cheapo carbon Tanaka, sharpen and polish the edge. They are great inexpensive knives.


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## Luvwine (Feb 4, 2015)

I have not read the whole thread, so please forgive me if this has been discussed, but what about Watanabe? I have not tried a Gyuto, but his Nakiri is great, sharp, and made from blue 2 that will hold an edge for some time. His prices are reasonable and delivery is swift.


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## HomeCook (Feb 5, 2015)

If edge retention is the priority then how about something made from Hap40 steel, like a Gihei which also has a wa handle?


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