# Advantage Sharpening systems vs Benchstones?



## Sharpchef (Jun 24, 2016)

I am a Benchstone collector and pro user (as a chef).

Sharpening for years now, sharpened hundrets of knifes that way (for friends, workingmates and even for pro chefs for money), and got a little contest with a russian guy, who sharpened one of my selfmades with a custom system, that offered nearly 2times more edge retention.

I was shocked! 

What are your experiences benchstone VS system?

Greets SEbastian.


----------



## malexthekid (Jun 24, 2016)

I can't see how the system affects edge retention unless it uses a different angle.

would be interesting to see if it is a 100% like for like comparison.


----------



## Iggy (Jun 24, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I can't see how the system affects edge retention unless it uses a different angle.



How about angle consistency?


----------



## Sharpchef (Jun 24, 2016)

We are working on this topic!

The main problem wasn`t the edge retention, but my assumption (and some of you guys may follow this) is that a more bity edge will last longer, so i usually sharpen with Chosera 5k max.

For the tested knives, a selfmade (high tungsten content steel 1.2562/like F2) and a Kato "non Workhorse" Gyuto 240mm, where sharpened by a russian sharpening system freak. My Touchup angles where about 38 degrees, and he sharpened a new bevel with exactly 36 degrees.

He made a full progression startet with low grit diamond hones, over Naniwa SS 1000-8000 followed by Blue belgian Whetstone, and finished on Nakayama Asagi (without Slurry), so the bevel was very polished, lets say at Naniwa SS 10000 Stage.
HHT 4 was possible on the whole blade.

I can get even results using Chosera 5k but never that sharp, with same edge retention.

My handmade one (HRC 67) cutted about 360 meals (mostly vedgetables and some meat, including Chicken bones etc. (but only at the joint) tomatoes, cucumbers, for salad (for 100 salads), and fruits for about 200 fruit salads and smoothies (Pineapple, apple, etc.)

If i do the same or alike highly polished bevel, like Nainiwa 10k or Nakayama Asagi, i can only cut the half of this. With same HHT level btw.

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## malexthekid (Jun 24, 2016)

Interesting. I would love to know if it is angle consistency at those higher grit stones.


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Jun 24, 2016)

Sharp, I was an EXPERT Edge Pro user for several years. Had every stone and piece of kit made for the EP. I could put a ripping even mirror polished bevel on any double bevel knife. What I didn't understand at that time, and most still don't, is that a sharp knife isn't necessarily a good cutting knife. Guided systems create a primary bevel with a distinct sharp shoulder. So the knife may penetrate the food, but when it slides up and hits that sharp shoulder, there will be sight resistance and hesitation. The larger the shoulder, the great the push back.

For me the primary goal in sharpening (in most instances) is to create as little primary bevel as possible. In fact, if the knife has a good profile and grind, it won't even need to be sharp to be a good cutter. Thats why in every "sharpening" session, I thin (very lightly but evenly) to erase most of the primary bevel, then refinish to erase the thinning scratches. Then I just put a super light microbevel on the right side and an even smaller one of the left side with a 1K, then strop on 6K. For me, most of the work in sharpening comes from refinishing. The actual sharpening part only takes a stroke or two. (I am using JKI diamond stones though). I think the most common mistake people make in sharpening is to overwork the edge. As long as you can feel a burr, stop, no need to waste metal.


----------



## malexthekid (Jun 24, 2016)

Mucho, do you refinish with just stones? or sandpaper?


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Jun 24, 2016)

A, Sandpaper for sure, usually 220/400/800. If its a simple Kasumi finish I leave it there. if its a wide bevel, after paper I'll use a series of rust erasers to create that matt finish.


----------



## gic (Jun 24, 2016)

I started out with an edge pro, I still use occasionally it to establish a new angle for the primary bevel if I am lowering the angle from the original (like when I refurbishing a forgecraft which I bring down a lot because they are so hard). 

I do this because that way I can feel the (new) "edge" on my stones when I sharpen, it makes it easier to use stones if oen has the edge one wants set precisely. But I use stones for the primary bevel because I find stones more fun (if not as efficient as my belt grinder).

That having been said, if one thins behind the edge with stones after each edge pro session, an edge pro progression will put an insane edge on a knife, but without thinning, it won't cut so well, no?


----------



## Mrmnms (Jun 24, 2016)

Curious which custom system he used. I sharpen for other people. Some insist on particular stones. Some insist I use a system. Honestly , some times I just do what I want, belts, stones, systems. Shame on me . Most say, "you see, I told you these was better". I always agree with them. Whatever works for you , whatever you're most comfortable with . Whatever makes you happy.


----------



## jmgray (Jun 25, 2016)

What is HHT?


----------



## Dardeau (Jun 25, 2016)

The hanging huevos test.


----------



## jmgray (Jun 25, 2016)

Dardeau said:


> The hanging huevos test.



Lol I wouldn't want to attempt that


----------



## psfred (Jun 26, 2016)

Sharpening systems usually have some sort of pivot arrangement, and that results in slight (or much) variation in the angle of the bevel along the edge. Less of an issue with short knives, but with longer ones, you end up with a very slight scalloping in the edge.

The angle will be more consistent, but the scratches will be along the blade, not perpendicular to the apex -- which may or may not matter. It is far easier to get a consistent bevel with a sharpening system, most people have a hard time holding a perfectly steady angle as they move a knife over sharpening stones, and while a slightly convex edge can be an advantage, slight isn't what beginners usually achieve, at least in my personal experience, anyway.

As noted, the geometry of the edge is actually more important that the actual acuity and sharpness of the apex for most food applications. Ditto for super polished edges.

A knife that is "fat" behind the edge always feels dull since the edge isn't actually cutting if firm foods, it's prying a crack apart. Lots of drag in softer things, too, which also feels dull.

Peter


----------



## bennyprofane (Jun 26, 2016)

Mrmnms said:


> Curious which custom system he used. I sharpen for other people. Some insist on particular stones. Some insist I use a system. Honestly , some times I just do what I want, belts, stones, systems. Shame on me . Most say, "you see, I told you these was better". I always agree with them. Whatever works for you , whatever you're most comfortable with . Whatever makes you happy.



I think he is talking about this guy and system:

[video=youtube_share;6B0KdyyuFqE]http://youtu.be/6B0KdyyuFqE[/video]

very interesting from minute 21.

What system are you using?


----------



## Sharpchef (Jun 26, 2016)

@bennyprofane: exactly this guy!

I have tested the particular knife, with Edge Pro and Suixin Clone, and with higher grit finish i did not come by my results by handsharpening ( with lower grits....) higher grits with a system and "correct" angle is just a little better, maybe 1 pound of carrots more to cut, so not measureable.

Sharpened with this system, the edge retention is way better!

May be the particular stones the honemeister used but, i think i got at least same level stones for handsharpening and tryed it about 3 times now to fully sharpen the knife with much attention, no way to get this edge retention.
This system allows to keep the pressure at a level that don`T hurt the edge, and this is the only point i can think of, what makes the edge retention that much better.

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## jgraeff (Jul 1, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Sharp, I was an EXPERT Edge Pro user for several years. Had every stone and piece of kit made for the EP. I could put a ripping even mirror polished bevel on any double bevel knife. What I didn't understand at that time, and most still don't, is that a sharp knife isn't necessarily a good cutting knife. Guided systems create a primary bevel with a distinct sharp shoulder. So the knife may penetrate the food, but when it slides up and hits that sharp shoulder, there will be sight resistance and hesitation. The larger the shoulder, the great the push back.
> 
> For me the primary goal in sharpening (in most instances) is to create as little primary bevel as possible. In fact, if the knife has a good profile and grind, it won't even need to be sharp to be a good cutter. Thats why in every "sharpening" session, I thin (very lightly but evenly) to erase most of the primary bevel, then refinish to erase the thinning scratches. Then I just put a super light microbevel on the right side and an even smaller one of the left side with a 1K, then strop on 6K. For me, most of the work in sharpening comes from refinishing. The actual sharpening part only takes a stroke or two. (I am using JKI diamond stones though). I think the most common mistake people make in sharpening is to overwork the edge. As long as you can feel a burr, stop, no need to waste metal.



Any chance you could make a video of your process and refinishing? I have a kochi so I have to thin/sharpen each time. The issue in having is refinishing the cladding.


----------



## bennyprofane (Jul 1, 2016)

I second that, it does sound really interesting and would love to see you actually do it.


----------



## hambone.johnson (Jul 2, 2016)

I'm in the same camp as Mucho and have changed to almost the same freehand system he uses. I used the EP for close to 10 years and it wasn't until I had multiple single bevel knives that I expanded my hand stone collection and skills. I'm glad I did. 

I have many old knives from my EP days that are rounded heavy shoulder Junkers now. I use them as practice knives for various things in my freehand sharpening. 

I notice that my knives now a days last a lot longer and have better shape wear because I'm often times just touching up micro bevel and doing some light blending with a sandpaper progression. The EP creates too much shoulder and eventually takes off too much edge material and wears down the blade edge. 

But, I'm also sharpening 2-3 times a month and have learned a lot about sharpening and maintaining knives over the years. original experience could be slighted by a lack of experience and overall sharpening knowledge. EP can still be used very successfully. I just think it's a little flawed over the life of a knife if used exclusively. It's a rigid system.


----------



## Sharpchef (Jul 2, 2016)

I completely agree with muchos statement about thinning the spine etc.

But i don`t think this is necessary that often!.

I use my knives in professional environment, make fresh food for about 150 kids at a private school (all fresh, no convienience), in the night i work at a hotel with fresh food (depends on business but between 30-80 meals), and all i really had to do is a touchup every day, if i use only one quality knife. The touchups are done with wether a coticule, Ohira Suita or Chosera 5k. Thats about 45000 meals per year. And bevore i go to my hollidays i thin my knife, thats it. I don`t think any homecook have too thin his knife in his lifetime, when he knows how to sharpen, keep constant angle etc., especially when he uses more then only one knive.

Don`t mentioned blade abuse or simple accidents....... If your blade is chipped badly, thinning is absolutely necessary.

So if i would take my 1.2562 Gyuto, after a treatment with the russian/serbian system scorpion, the edge lasteted 3 days!, nearly 500 meals, more then most of you have to cut in one year........ And are able to touch it up with the system or by hand with only a high grit natural stone within a few seconds, why should i thin my knive? And i talk about cutting on bad plastic boards......

Geometry will suffer if you always start with medium grit stones or even worse with coarse stones, very quickly, but watch your knives and their cutting ability is one of the most recommendet things. I can understand why the guys that really use only one or two knives at home environment don`t know how to sharpen proberly, because they don`t do it that often. And is really hard to learn to do this (handsharpening) effectively.

Greets Sebastian.


----------



## Sharpchef (Sep 10, 2016)

So here is a teaser, and it works! 
You got absolute pressure control, and a fixed angle, and can sharpen like you usualy do on a benchstone.
The only difference is i can take a Japanese knife and take it too maybe 20000 Gokumyo and it would not loose sharpness after maybe 50 cuts. So really razor sharp knives without issues....... (with systems like wiked edge or edge pro i cannot handle really big knifes, no probs with this system, with the mentioned systems i can get a mirror edge with little longer edge retention then handsharpening, with really angle control and pressure control i can get edges that stay sharp about 3 times longer.







Greets Sebastian.


----------



## gic (Sep 10, 2016)

I pretty much only use my edge pro now to change the angle of a knife from say 20 degrees to 15 degrees say with a coarse stone. Why? Because I then find it easier to use stones to complete the sharpening process as I can feel the edge better. Otherwise I rarely take it out.


----------

