# Ideas for knife used to cut produce with skin



## noj (Oct 5, 2022)

I am looking for ideas for cutting a lot of produce with skin.
Items like eggplant, tomato, and peppers. I know many have suggested
a toothier edge, which works of course. Most of my knives are quite
TBE, and the hagane is either a blue/white. The edge tarnishes after a single
use, especially if I am cutting onions, tomatoes, citrus, pickles, etc.
I think the tarnished edge isn't as good with produce/skin, or perhaps
it's just the toothy edge doesn't hold up as long as I like. At the
same time, being TBE, I would rather not drop to a course a stone more
than necessary, even for touchup. Or to put it another way, I don't
want to waste steel. I also like having fingertips after I slice a box
of cherry tomatoes;-) At the moment, I have 1000 and 3000 grit, as far 
as synthetics. Feel free to comment on my concern.

If it makes sense to you, or you have found a good solution, I would
appreciate your feedback. I am open to anything from a different knife,
sharpening stone (synth or natural), techniques, or something I haven't 
thought of yet.

Thanks in advance!


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## SirCutAlot (Oct 5, 2022)

This is the most classical problem in the knife sharpening world i think. 

2 Solutions:

Hard steel with low grit sharpening (3k max!) and low angle (30 degrees max!)

Soft steel with very low grit sharpening (1k max!) and steeling with quality honing rods.

SirCutALot


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## noj (Oct 5, 2022)

SirCutAlot said:


> This is the most classical problem in the knife sharpening world i think.
> 
> 2 Solutions:
> 
> ...


I tend to dislike soft steel. I already use hard steel within those parameters. I was pondering a steel less reactive but still not too hard to sharpen and touch up?


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## r0bz (Oct 5, 2022)

SirCutAlot said:


> Soft steel with very low grit sharpening (1k max!) and steeling with quality honing rods.


what rod do you recommend ? i mean what company and model


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## Rangen (Oct 5, 2022)

I don't think I've ever seen a claim that patina diminishes cutting performance.


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## Cliff (Oct 5, 2022)

I like to keep an R2 or SLD/SKD knife sharpened at 1-2K for this


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## MowgFace (Oct 5, 2022)

A couple of potential contributors

Sharpening - I tend to look at my sharpening first if anything is not turning out as i expect. Potentially a residual burr that is causing you to see a dropoff in sharpness
Acidity may be corroding your edge - Not sure how big a "Box" of cherry tomatoes you've got, and might want to take Cliff's recommendation of a stainless/semi knife to get some more edge life.
Frequent touchups may be needed - Ceramic Honing Rod, Touchup stone nearby to give a few swipes to bring an edge back to life.


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## SirCutAlot (Oct 5, 2022)

r0bz said:


> what rod do you recommend ? i mean what company and model


We use 2 kinds of rods in kitchen, DICK Microfeinzug and DICKORON (called Saphierzug) . They work well in a crowded area . 

I`am the Custom/Japanese Knife guy in the kitchen so i don`t realy use them but my working mates with mostly standart stuff like Wusthoff/Zwilling/DICK/Sab/Global love em. 

SirCutALot


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## noj (Oct 5, 2022)

Rangen said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a claim that patina diminishes cutting performance.


I could be mistaken, but I a thought maybe the teeth left by courser stone is more easily abraded in use after patina.


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## noj (Oct 5, 2022)

MowgFace said:


> A couple of potential contributors
> 
> Sharpening - I tend to look at my sharpening first if anything is not turning out as i expect. Potentially a residual burr that is causing you to see a dropoff in sharpness
> Acidity may be corroding your edge - Not sure how big a "Box" of cherry tomatoes you've got, and might want to take Cliff's recommendation of a stainless/semi knife to get some more edge life.
> Frequent touchups may be needed - Ceramic Honing Rod, Touchup stone nearby to give a few swipes to bring an edge back to life.


I finish edge leading and tiny bit higher angle, so I doubt it's burr removal. I have pulled the edge through the usual stuff, and there's nothing that comes away. I prefer a touchup with a stone, but was just worrying about wear. The 1k stone I have seemed to be consuming a bit more than I liked. I haven't tried much in the way of stainless; I only have a petty with sg2. That isn't my favorite metal.


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## Cliff (Oct 5, 2022)

noj said:


> I finish edge leading and tiny bit higher angle, so I doubt it's burr removal. I have pulled the edge through the usual stuff, and there's nothing that comes away. I prefer a touchup with a stone, but was just worrying about wear. The 1k stone I have seemed to be consuming a bit more than I liked. I haven't tried much in the way of stainless; I only have a petty with sg2. That isn't my favorite metal.


Have you tried Yoshikane SKD? I love mine for this kind of thing -- and other tasks, too.


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## Greasylake (Oct 5, 2022)

Have you considered an aoto? They're not overly expensive and the edge is quite toothy, really nice for product with skin. They can be quite quick stones too so touch ups can be done quickly.


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## noj (Oct 5, 2022)

Cliff said:


> Have you tried Yoshikane SKD? I love mine for this kind of thing -- and other tasks, too.


Nope, not yet;-) Love the suggestions and ideas!


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## noj (Oct 5, 2022)

Greasylake said:


> Have you considered an aoto? They're not overly expensive and the edge is quite toothy, really nice for product with skin. They can be quite quick stones too so touch ups can be done quickly.


Yes and no;-) I have a JNS red synth atto, but only used on an edge once so far. I hadn't used the aoto for some time, and the surface feet odd - like some unexpectedly course material mixed in. I'll have to flatten it and try again. I haven't tried a natural aoto, most are rather narrow. Love the suggestions and ideas!


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## captaincaed (Oct 5, 2022)

For toothy edges, the best stones I’ve found are the JKI 2000 and 4000. They have a reputation for doing this quite well. And neither of them are terribly coarse.

For steels that go the mile, R2 and ZDP do very well. But your deburring skills must be good


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## M1k3 (Oct 5, 2022)

SG2/R2, ZDP-189, HAP40 and an edge in the 500-2k grit range.


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## ModRQC (Oct 5, 2022)

SG2 / HAP 40 through Cerax 1K and light stropping on Morihei 4K =


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## MrHiggins (Oct 5, 2022)

noj said:


> ... edge tarnishes after a single
> use, especially if I am cutting onions, tomatoes, citrus, pickles, etc.
> I think the tarnished edge isn't as good with produce/skin, or perhaps
> it's just the toothy edge doesn't hold up as long as I like.


This really sounds like you're leaving a small burr on your knife, which is bending over. So I'd start there and ensure that that's not happening anymore.

As for ideas, here's a good way to get a refined, yet toothy edge: Fully sharpen your knife, all the way up to your highest grit and finish by using your lightest pressure. You should have an incredibly keen edge and no burr. Then get your 1k and make a few very light passes on it. That technique works for me. Maybe it'll work for you, too. Good luck!


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## blokey (Oct 5, 2022)

TBH I find White steel especially white 2 don't hold up well to stuffs like tomato, they will keep sharp but loose their toothness quicker than most others, some large carbide stainless are actually better in this regard like VG10 or 19c27.


captaincaed said:


> For toothy edges, the best stones I’ve found are the JKI 2000 and 4000. They have a reputation for doing this quite well. And neither of them are terribly coarse.
> 
> For steels that go the mile, R2 and ZDP do very well. But your deburring skills must be good


Second this, these 2 stones produce some of the meanest edges.


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## r0bz (Oct 6, 2022)

SirCutAlot said:


> We use 2 kinds of rods in kitchen, DICK Microfeinzug and DICKORON (called Saphierzug) . They work well in a crowded area .
> 
> I`am the Custom/Japanese Knife guy in the kitchen so i don`t realy use them but my working mates with mostly standart stuff like Wusthoff/Zwilling/DICK/Sab/Global love em.
> 
> SirCutALot


i have a 58 hrc cleaver which i finish sharpening at 800 grit and i use a grooved wusthof honing rod to maintain it between stone sharpening 
do you recommend avoiding a grooved steel ?
if i can get only one dickoron which one you would recommend and why ?


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## stringer (Oct 6, 2022)

Part of this is choosing the right knife and sharpening regimen. But there is also adjustments you can make to your cutting technique as the knife dulls to keep going longer before needing the steel or stone. You would be amazed at the sorry state of many professional cook's tools. But if you gotta get it done, you gotta get it done so you work with you got. 

Here are some options:

Use more longitudinal slicing motion in your cutting technique. The more motion the less pressure it takes to start and finish a cut.

Pierce the skin with the tip of the knife to start the cut instead of starting the cut with the belly. The area near the tip doesn't receive as much board contact as the belly of the knife and it is very pointy. It will cut any kind of skin indefinitely. 

In the same vein, use draw/pull cuts instead of normal slicing or chopping motion. This also works great if you are having problems with wedging.

Cut from flesh side to skin side of product instead of skin to flesh.


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## Matt Jacobs (Oct 6, 2022)

I had really good luck with R2 sharpened on a shapton pro 2K. I have definitely seen carbon knives degrade faster on high acid foods. 
SKD from Yoshi is another fantastic option.


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## r0bz (Oct 6, 2022)

Matt Jacobs said:


> I had really good luck with R2 sharpened on a shapton pro 2K. I have definitely seen carbon knives degrade faster on high acid foods.
> SKD from Yoshi is another fantastic option.


do you mean this knife ? the yoshi


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## Matt Jacobs (Oct 6, 2022)

r0bz said:


> do you mean this knife ? the yoshi



Was thinking Yoshikane but hey why not give this a try?


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## r0bz (Oct 6, 2022)

Matt Jacobs said:


> Was thinking Yoshikane but hey why not give this a try?


XD
i thought its weird if this is what you meant but this is what came up on google search yoshi knife


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## GorillaGrunt (Oct 6, 2022)

i like AS, SLD, and YXR7 for this


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## noj (Oct 6, 2022)

Thanks all for the comments and suggestions! I will try a couple things before too many more questions.

Were the ideas about steel types because of ability to obtain and maintain a toothy edge, or corrosion resistance, or other factors? What do you think of A2, 52100, or AEBL? I don't know that I need (or even like) totally stainless, just a lot less that a white/blue steel. I probably prefer not having to use diamond stones. What do you think of Belgian blue (or other natural) for the toothy edge vs a 2000 grit?


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## captaincaed (Oct 7, 2022)

noj said:


> Were the ideas about steel types because of ability to obtain and maintain a toothy edge, or corrosion resistance


Yes to all of the above
The more carbide forming elements, the longer the edge tends to last. The finer the carbides, the easier it is (for me) to make a nice toothy edge.

Stainless knives tend to have chromium, some of which forms chromium carbides. Other common carbide forming elements are Tungsten and Vanadium. Both benefit from diamonds. If they're in small amounts, though, normal stones are great.

I find A2 hits a nice sweet spot between easy sharpening, acid resistance and edge holding. D2 is more of a PITA to sharpen the way I like. R2 is a PITA to deburr, but hold an edge I like for a long time once finished.

AEBL seems to take a bit if finesse or at least knowledge to heat treat in a way that works well, but it's very capable if done right.

Blue family steels are also a good choice. Fairly easy to sharpen but much better kitchen use qualities than simpler steels. 52100 I'd put in this group too. It's mechanically tougher than blue, but doesn't do any better with acid or abrasion really. Shades of grey for me in practice.

Belgian blues make great kitchen edges. More refined than 2k. Maybe closer to 4k as a rule of thumb. 

Word to the wise. The more you want to use natural stones, the simpler (metallurgicaly) you want your steel to be. A2 would my own limit here. If I'm on a sharpening kick and want to feel the joy, white, blue and 52100 are where it's at. Natural stones are not designed to cut steel. They just happen to. Their use evolved in tandem with early iron use. Fancy modern steel laughs at natural stones.


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## Greenbriel (Oct 7, 2022)

noj said:


> I could be mistaken, but I a thought maybe the teeth left by courser stone is more easily abraded in use after patina.


I'm with @Rangen on this. I really can't see how a patina can affect the edge at all. Just my tuppence!


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## noj (Oct 7, 2022)

Greenbriel said:


> I'm with @Rangen on this. I really can't see how a patina can affect the edge at all. Just my tuppence!


When I say patina, I am specifically meaning patina along the edge bevel (removed by prior sharpening). I will perhaps deemphasize causation, which could be conflicting with correlation, other than the decline in performance occurs around the same time. My suspicion comes from the fact that some metal (at the edge) has changed chemistry, possibly in a manner that would affect performance.


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## noj (Oct 7, 2022)

captaincaed said:


> Yes to all of the above
> The more carbide forming elements, the longer the edge tends to last. The finer the carbides, the easier it is (for me) to make a nice toothy edge.
> 
> Stainless knives tend to have chromium, some of which forms chromium carbides. Other common carbide forming elements are Tungsten and Vanadium. Both benefit from diamonds. If they're in small amounts, though, normal stones are great.
> ...


Nice write-up and answer, thanks for saving me time and $$ ;-)


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## noj (Oct 7, 2022)

stringer said:


> Part of this is choosing the right knife and sharpening regimen. But there is also adjustments you can make to your cutting technique as the knife dulls to keep going longer before needing the steel or stone. You would be amazed at the sorry state of many professional cook's tools. But if you gotta get it done, you gotta get it done so you work with you got.
> 
> Here are some options:
> 
> ...


At the risk of repeating myself .. nice write-up and answer, thanks for saving me time and $$ ;-)


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## esoo (Oct 7, 2022)

I would assume patina does affect the edge, if only because the patina is caused by acidic ingredients and that is affecting the carbon steel.

I however have never done a controlled test on this, so do not have a clue if this is the case.


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## stringer (Oct 7, 2022)

esoo said:


> I would assume patina does affect the edge, if only because the patina is caused by acidic ingredients and that is affecting the carbon steel.
> 
> I however have never done a controlled test on this, so do not have a clue if this is the case.


After I force a patina on a knife I always have to touch up the edge just like if I sliced a case of lemons. So yeah, I think it would be safe to assume that it is the same affect.


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## noj (Oct 9, 2022)

noj said:


> When I say patina, I am specifically meaning patina along the edge bevel (removed by prior sharpening). I will perhaps deemphasize causation, which could be conflicting with correlation, other than the decline in performance occurs around the same time. My suspicion comes from the fact that some metal (at the edge) has changed chemistry, possibly in a manner that would affect performance.


Stolen from another thread (posted by HumbleHomeCook) ..

knifesteelnerds.com/2019/01/21/does-acidic-food-affect-edge-retention/

I suspect other foods that strongly affect the patina would have a similar effect, even if the pH isn't particularly low, like onions and pickles. Same with forced patina.


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