# natural stone guidance



## Mikeadunne (Dec 30, 2020)

Wasn't sure if I should post this here or just put up a WTB in the non knife section but I'm sticking this here because I need a little direction here. 

I should start by stating that I am currently using a mixed Shapton set up - glass 220, 500, 4k pro 1k, 2k and a rarely used Naniwa 3k (I think of the super stone variety from the website which shall not be named) and aroma 140. I am mostly using the 2k and 4k for upkeep and I vascillate between which one I end on. 

I often get a little hot & bothered reading about these refined yet toothy edges the j nat groupies often talk about on here. So I'm thinking I want to start messing around with a medium-fine-ish (basically in the 2-4k range even though I know "its not the same as synthetics but for the sake of a context I understand). I know its a rabbit hole blah blah. I just wanna take one hit and see how it feels. I'm not concerned with polishing and finishes at this point - I'm after this paradoxical edge. I've heard Aizu is a good gateway drug. Where can I source a good one? I don't see many available on the 15 or so knife vendors I check incessantly. Does anyone have some guidance they can offer here? I'm just sort of looking for the idiot's guide, not working towards a phd. Would appreciate any help, feel free to pm of course. Cheers


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## Mikeadunne (Dec 30, 2020)

I suppose should mention I'm sharpening the Hitachi steels mostly, blues and whites and some sl/kd. Not sure if that matters very much.


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## Dull_Apex (Dec 30, 2020)

Watanabe has a page of them, but the common refrain is that you pay for his testing and rating service. 

I recently bought one from Ikkyu for cheaper, but haven't had a chance to use it so can't comment yet on the stone. While I was thinking about making the same jump I saw them come up a few times so there's a chance more will be posted.


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## Mikeadunne (Dec 30, 2020)

Dull_Apex said:


> Watanabe has a page of them, but the common refrain is that you pay for his testing and rating service.
> 
> I recently bought one from Ikkyu for cheaper, but haven't had a chance to use it so can't comment yet on the stone. While I was thinking about making the same jump I saw them come up a few times so there's a chance more will be posted.


thanks, ya I was planning on going the Watanabe route if this post didn't yield any results. But he's not doing business for a month and money burns holes in my pockets...


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 30, 2020)

I have a few medium grit naturals, and I like almost all of them. My fastest is a vintage Numata that gives a nice 2-3k edge, but is a drab shade of beige and doesn't spark joy. I got mine on BST but Watanabe's look similar and might be nice. Most of his mediums are on Page 8. If I had the funds I'd try one of the Tajimas.

When I was using carbon my favorite finishing stone was a coarser Tsushima, tested at 5 microns or about 3000 grit. Paid Shinichi way too much for that one, but it felt worth it since most people say Tsushimas are very fine, more around 6-8k, and don't work so well for knives. Mine has a nice tactile feedback and feels aoto-like. Aotos are a crapshoot, I have one I like that's harder and doesn't release much mud, but it's on the small side. Also good for carbon.

Since I switched to the light side and am using all stainless now, those haven't worked so well for me. I know you're asking about carbon but now that I'm on a roll, I really like the Ikarashi I got from Shinichi for stainless. It's a bit coarser 1-2k, but is really good at deburring. Feels like it can stretch to 3k if I spend time breaking down the mud, but that's probably wishful thinking. I also have a tiny Aizu, which is similar but a higher grit. These are unique because they aren't sedimentary like most stones, and they have a somewhat sandy texture that makes them work a bit differently.

Have to say the only dud I've bought was an Ikarashi from JNS, it's the slowest of all my stones, coarse and scratchy, feels like sharpening on marble. I like the looks of the Ikarashi at Ikkyu now, if you're willing to do some heavy flattening you could save some money. Unfortunately I haven't seen any good sized Aizu lately, and have a feeling there will be a frenzy the next time one hits BST.


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## Mikeadunne (Dec 30, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I have a few medium grit naturals, and I like almost all of them. My fastest is a vintage Numata that gives a nice 2-3k edge, but is a drab shade of beige and doesn't spark joy. I got mine on BST but Watanabe's look similar and might be nice. Most of his mediums are on Page 8. If I had the funds I'd try one of the Tajimas.
> 
> When I was using carbon my favorite finishing stone was a coarser Tsushima, tested at 5 microns or about 3000 grit. Paid Shinichi way too much for that one, but it felt worth it since most people say Tsushimas are very fine, more around 6-8k, and don't work so well for knives. Mine has a nice tactile feedback and feels aoto-like. Aotos are a crapshoot, I have one I like that's harder and doesn't release much mud, but it's on the small side. Also good for carbon.
> 
> ...


I do enjoy sharpening as a somewhat fun practice but to be clear I don't give a darn about how the stone looks. Of course this is a hobby for me but I am also a pro so I want it to work first and foremost. I am most interested in the resulting edge. At this point I probably want something that's easiest/fastest. I'll have plenty of time to play in mud later, right now I wanna brunoise ripe tomatoes.


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 30, 2020)

Mikeadunne said:


> I do enjoy sharpening as a somewhat fun practice but to be clear I don't give a darn about how the stone looks. Of course this is a hobby for me but I am also a pro so I want it to work first and foremost. I am most interested in the resulting edge. At this point I probably want something that's easiest/fastest. I'll have plenty of time to play in mud later, right now I wanna brunoise ripe tomatoes.


That sounds like my Numata. But fair warning, if this is your first natural you might be in for a shock at how much slower they are compared to synthetics. If you're willing to use two stones, cutting a bevel on your 1k or 2k shaptons and refining on the natural would be your best bet.


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## DHunter86 (Dec 30, 2020)

Hit Yasuko-san up at Ikkyu, he has a weird shaped Aizu on sale now, but can pretty much source the Aizu size you want. His supplier seems to have them readily in stock. Ain't the cheapest prices, and required some flattening. But they are competitive and I've tested mine. Quite happy with what I got, aizus might be tricky at times and the harder ones require some surface conditioning with atoma plates (wash away the slurry for best results). 

PM me if you'd like to see a sample finish from my Ikkyu Aizu


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## DHunter86 (Dec 30, 2020)

Mikeadunne said:


> I do enjoy sharpening as a somewhat fun practice but to be clear I don't give a darn about how the stone looks. Of course this is a hobby for me but I am also a pro so I want it to work first and foremost. I am most interested in the resulting edge. At this point I probably want something that's easiest/fastest. I'll have plenty of time to play in mud later, right now I wanna brunoise ripe tomatoes.



Muddy Aotos may be what you need. They suck at polishing, but are decently priced for their toothy cutting edges. The clean ones used for polishing go for much higher prices. If you've yet to try one, maybe the Aotos offered by Bernal might be worth a shot.


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## tcmx3 (Dec 30, 2020)

in this grit range I have an Aizu from Carbon and a Shoubudani 2,5 I got from Maxim. 

the aizu is nice and I prefer it as a pre-polisher but I think the edge off the Shoubu is breathtakingly grabby for its grit. the shoubu was actually a shipping cost purchase and was under 200 dollars and I wasnt expecting much (I dont like my other one, though granted it's like a 4 or 4.5 hardness stone) but has been a very pleasant surprise, so I actually tend to use the shoubu if that's the kind of edge I want as I wouldnt leave finish at this level.

fwiw I find edges in this range a little too slicey, whereas in the suita range you get the best combination of slicing and push cutting ability. JMO


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## tcmx3 (Dec 30, 2020)

btw I will add another vote to looking through ikkyu's inventory. I recently picked up an ohira aka renge shiro suita from them that is an absolutey stunning stone except for suji for ~250 dollars. only that that's something you can deal with, and I feel like the stone would have been over 1000 dollars were it not for them, and it just means I have to be careful when I polish.

I really feel like this by far my best purchase, even if I still prefer my (much, much more expensive) maru suita.

an inexpensive way to try something. kind of like a project knife that needs a bit of TLC but has a great ht and grind (as long as it's not a TF lmao)


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## knspiracy (Dec 30, 2020)

Mikeadunne said:


> money burns holes in my pockets...


We, my friend, may be related.


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## Mikeadunne (Dec 30, 2020)

Thank you all for the responses.

@DHunter86 I have seen those Aotos at bernal and thought about just jumping in a grabbing one but then I started seeing Aizu referenced a lot in this line of questioning so that's where my focus went. I don't have a problem with flattening per se, I just ditched my old plate and got a new 140 atoma for Christmas so its ready to go. Or I guess in an extreme case sandpaper + flat surface initially yes?

@tcmx3 see that's what I'm talking about, when you talk about the edge off shoubudani it gets me flustered but it seems (just like everywhere else on this forum) the more I ask the more variety in answers. Which is awesome but also overwhelming. I don't mind a little work but I don't want a "TF" stone. If I want to spend $200-300 I know I'm not gonna get the moon, but I also don't want to spend it on some wonky rock that frustrates me. Maybe I just need to try to contact Ikkyu.


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## tcmx3 (Dec 30, 2020)

Mikeadunne said:


> Thank you all for the responses.
> @tcmx3 see that's what I'm talking about, when you talk about the edge off shoubudani it gets me flustered but it seems (just like everywhere else on this forum) the more I ask the more variety in answers. Which is awesome but also overwhelming. I don't mind a little work but I don't want a "TF" stone. If I want to spend $200-300 I know I'm not gonna get the moon, but I also don't want to spend it on some wonky rock that frustrates me. Maybe I just need to try to contact Ikkyu.



fair enough. 

I will say the stone I got is only a "project" stone wrt to polishing. in terms of sharpening it's good to go. 

the shoubu is flawless though, and it was ~150. not flashy, but it gets the job done for the price for sure.


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## DHunter86 (Dec 30, 2020)

@Mikeadunne yeah, the aizus give a different and more refined edge. So I'd say go for it since you're a seasoned sharpener. The Aotos are easier to jump on the bandwagon, but longer term, the Aizu may be what you're looking for given high end carbon steel knives. Ikkyu should be able to supply one for around $150 shipped, standard sized, just not so thick (but would still last ages). They usually ship with the sharpening face flattened so no worries there, but you may opt to flatten the base as well so that it sits more stably.

If you're using the stone for sharpening, don't worry too much about inclusions or toxic lines (suji), most won't do much to the hard core steel, but wreak havoc only for polishers. Yasuko-san usually lets you know if any are to be had - make sure to ask him to check if it's an unlisted stone as he sometimes misses these when getting direct from his supplier.


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## lumo (Dec 30, 2020)

I have a Bernal Aoto, CKC Aizu and JNS synth Aoto if you want to swing by and take them for a few days.


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## Mikeadunne (Dec 30, 2020)

lumo said:


> I have a Bernal Aoto, CKC Aizu and JNS synth Aoto if you want to swing by and take them for a few days.


Yup. Somehow I knew you'd be helpful on this journey. All 3 of these pique my interest as they seem like the right gateway drug.


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## Robert Lavacca (Dec 30, 2020)

You can always hit up one of hitohira’s retailers in the states etc. Sometimes they will go the extra mile and source something for you. I have two morihei aizu that I really enjoy. Aizu can be tricky though like others have said. It’s all about patience man. No matter what you end up, you need the patience to learn the details of your stone. It can be extremely frustrating, but you’ll get there if you keep at it. I guess that’s sharpening in general though . If you’re just going for the one, and you want something decent, just get a morihei aizu. You know what you’re getting, you can get one stateside, etc. Or you can post a WTB here maybe.


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## Teryeki (Dec 30, 2020)

As someone in a similar position to OP, this thread is turning out to be a big help despite other content on this forum. Certainly a concise source atm.


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## Migraine (Dec 30, 2020)

Wait for Badgertooth to have another clear out


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## Teryeki (Jan 5, 2021)

Can anyone suggest the best way to get in touch with Yasuko-san? Sent a message nearly a week ago on ikkyu’s contact page.


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## DHunter86 (Jan 5, 2021)

Try dropping him another message in case he missed your first one. Alternatively try messaging him on ebay, he usually responds in a day or two there. At least that's my experience.


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## LostHighway (Jan 5, 2021)

I have found the responsiveness from Ikkyu fairly limited relative to a number of other vendors. I toyed with purchasing a few stones from them but couldn't get the answers I sought or photos of other faces of the stones I requested. Badgertooth is extremely honest and reliable. Watanabe, Aframes Tokyo* are both usually good as is JNS. I would expect Strata, CKC, and Bernal to be good although I haven't purchased from them. Strata in particular has great info on their site. You definitely can get cheaper stones off auction sites but it is considerably more a roll of the dice.

There are many people here that know far more about JNATs than I do but I think an Aizu might be what you are looking for. They are way more consistent both in hardness and approximate grit range than Aotos. I have soft Numata which is a decent stone but I don't think it is likely to be as good a fit for you as an Aizu. Koshijis are said to often be good (I haven't used one) but they are not commonly available.

*The Aframes grading system takes some getting used to. IMO many of his stones are too hard for a beginner.


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 5, 2021)

Teryeki said:


> Can anyone suggest the best way to get in touch with Yasuko-san? Sent a message nearly a week ago on ikkyu’s contact page.


He just replied to me. I figured they were busy returning from the new years holiday


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 5, 2021)

First time i tried an Aizu it felt too hard for me.
If you decide to go that way, keep in mind that it takes some time to get used to it.

If i were starting all over again, i would go for a fast suita as my first stone.
The feeling i've got from the right one was something else.


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## DHunter86 (Jan 6, 2021)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> First time i tried an Aizu it felt too hard for me.
> If you decide to go that way, keep in mind that it takes some time to get used to it.
> 
> If i were starting all over again, i would go for a fast suita as my first stone.
> The feeling i've got from the right one was something else.



These tend to go for much higher prices if they're clean though. Those for sharpening are cheaper, but polishing quality stones are really expensive. Of course, I'm on a suita craze as of late (the wallet isn't cooperating), so I'd be inclined to agree with you. If you're sure you want to jump into JNats head first, a good suita is a nice place to start.


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## Mikeadunne (Jan 6, 2021)

I just heard back form Ikkyu but he only had one Aizu available and he put it at 1k which is not really what I'm looking for. I want a stone that finishes in the 2-4k range. Next week I'm going to try out lumo's stones and go from there...


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## DHunter86 (Jan 6, 2021)

Great to try some out before jumping in, I'm sure you'll get an idea of what's for you after testing out lumo's stones.

Ikkyu's grit rating isn't correct - he rates all his Aizus at 1k grit, which my specimen is definitely finer than (I'd say 3k or so). I don't think they particularly test all their stones, and mainly trust the wholesaler's word. Hence, to buy from Ikkyu, you've got to make the judgement based on prior experience and also the look of the stone - which is reflective of what others have said regarding the lack of info / photos from them on the stones.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 6, 2021)

+1 for Bernal's aotos. They are awesome for a nice toothy edge. I use mine for a finisher on a lot of people's knives, and a good bit of my own. 

They suck at polishing wide bevels, but that's what suita's and uchigumori (or hell, even some synthetics) are for though.


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 6, 2021)

DHunter86 said:


> Great to try some out before jumping in, I'm sure you'll get an idea of what's for you after testing out lumo's stones.
> 
> Ikkyu's grit rating isn't correct - he rates all his Aizus at 1k grit, which my specimen is definitely finer than (I'd say 3k or so). I don't think they particularly test all their stones, and mainly trust the wholesaler's word. Hence, to buy from Ikkyu, you've got to make the judgement based on prior experience and also the look of the stone - which is reflective of what others have said regarding the lack of info / photos from them on the stones.


I was wondering if he rates his stones at the lowest range of their grit. It would head off complaints from customers about errant scratch marks, and would make sense if your focus is polishing.


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## Mikeadunne (Jan 6, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I was wondering if he rates his stones at the lowest range of their grit. It would head off complaints from customers about errant scratch marks, and would make sense if your focus is polishing.


ah ok that makes sense


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## DHunter86 (Jan 6, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> I was wondering if he rates his stones at the lowest range of their grit. It would head off complaints from customers about errant scratch marks, and would make sense if your focus is polishing.



It could very well be the case, don't have enough samples to reach a conclusion though.


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 6, 2021)

I have no idea really, just a thought. I wish I had the funds right now to acquire a statistically significant number of samples


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## zizirex (Jan 6, 2021)

Aizu is really nice, it's my go-to working edge now. it will polish the bevel pretty nicely, but the edge is what makes it stay. toothy yet refine enough for kitchen edge. I used it on most of my Gyuto and Honesuki.


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## Danzo (Jan 6, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> +1 for Bernal's aotos. They are awesome for a nice toothy edge. I use mine for a finisher on a lot of people's knives, and a good bit of my own.
> 
> They suck at polishing wide bevels, but that's what suita's and uchigumori (or hell, even some synthetics) are for though.




I too am a relative stone noob on the hunt for a good toothy finisher. I had a Bernal aoto, i hated it. it spit up quickly with this sticky and slippery mud that also dried and hardened while using it. Yours behave the same way?


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## jwthaparc (Jan 6, 2021)

Danzo said:


> I too am a relative stone noob on the hunt for a good toothy finisher. I had a Bernal aoto, i hated it. it spit up quickly with this sticky and slippery mud that also dried and hardened while using it. Yours behave the same way?


I actually soak mine shortly before using it. It seems to get rid of the problem, for the most part. 

After soaking I definitely i dont seem to notice the mud as much. Especially if I'm only sharpening the edge. 

To add something else. I've seen people say when using an aoto, to wash the mud off. That it tends to actually slow down the cutting away off metal. Then let the mud build back up when finishing/deburring to polish. I use my aoto as a finisher a lot of the time so I tend to just work the mud, adding water as need be.


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## Danzo (Jan 7, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> I actually soak mine shortly before using it. It seems to get rid of the problem, for the most part.
> 
> After soaking I definitely i dont seem to notice the mud as much. Especially if I'm only sharpening the edge.
> 
> To add something else. I've seen people say when using an aoto, to wash the mud off. That it tends to actually slow down the cutting away off metal. Then let the mud build back up when finishing/deburring to polish. I use my aoto as a finisher a lot of the time so I tend to just work the mud, adding water as need be.


I soaked mine too, just the top portion since it was a thick stone. still never got it to behave in a way that worked for me. Xenif has an aoto that leaves such a good edge, one knife i got from him like a year ago, though it gets used only periodically it still has a great edge


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## jwthaparc (Jan 7, 2021)

Danzo said:


> I soaked mine too, just the top portion since it was a thick stone. still never got it to behave in a way that worked for me. Xenif has an aoto that leaves such a good edge, one knife i got from him like a year ago, though it gets used only periodically it still has a great edge


There is always the case that, every natural is different from the next. Maybe I got lucky. The edge mine leaves is quite nice. Like i mentioned, it is horrible for wide bevel polishing though.


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## Matt Zilliox (Jan 7, 2021)

Ill be listing a few soon. I have a ueno that is moderately hard and similar grit to my aizu. The ueno and my course numata give some crazy good edges


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## Matt Zilliox (Jan 7, 2021)

Also. For you cats new to naturals... not all shobudanis are alike. Not all ohira stones are amazing, etc etc. Each stone is unique. Ive tried 4 marou shiro suitas and all were noticeably different. These are not synthetics, theres no similarities across the mines stones. Certainly the strata plays as much if not more importance, but even then, my 3 tenjyou are totally different


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## DHunter86 (Jan 7, 2021)

That's so true. I've got 3 Aizus, they're all slightly different.


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## adam92 (Jan 9, 2021)

Dull_Apex said:


> Watanabe has a page of them, but the common refrain is that you pay for his testing and rating service.
> 
> I recently bought one from Ikkyu for cheaper, but haven't had a chance to use it so can't comment yet on the stone. While I was thinking about making the same jump I saw them come up a few times so there's a chance more will be posted.


I never heard Ikkyu before, but free shipping to New Zealand look good to me


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## tcmx3 (Jan 9, 2021)

adam92 said:


> I never heard Ikkyu before, but free shipping to New Zealand look good to me



they seem on top of things.

I just recently ordered a second stone from them. they dont seem to have the super crazy nice ones like watanabe/JNS but for someone who wants a good stone with some character, they're a great choice. right now all the vendors seem to be moving kind of slow but ikkyu got my order shipped within a day or two and it's already about to hit the US right after the weekend


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## Teryeki (Jan 9, 2021)

adam92 said:


> I never heard Ikkyu before, but free shipping to New Zealand look good to me


I ordered from them this Wednesday and it made it to my house in the US by yesterday.


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## adam92 (Jan 9, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> they seem on top of things.
> 
> I just recently ordered a second stone from them. they dont seem to have the super crazy nice ones like watanabe/JNS but for someone who wants a good stone with some character, they're a great choice. right now all the vendors seem to be moving kind of slow but ikkyu got my order shipped within a day or two and it's already about to hit the US right after the weekend


May I know what stone you order from him? How's the feedback? I saw some koppa stone under 200 USD I worth like to try.



Teryeki said:


> I ordered from them this Wednesday and it made it to my house in the US by yesterday.



May I know what stone you order from him? How's the feedback? I saw some koppa stone under 200 USD I worth like to try.


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## Teryeki (Jan 9, 2021)

adam92 said:


> May I know what stone you order from him? How's the feedback? I saw some koppa stone under 200 USD I worth like to try.


I ordered an Okunomon Shiro Suita because I asked for something to finish after my 6k gesshin and use for edge and polish and it was one of three stones he recommended in my ~$200 USD price range. I’m probably going to pick up an Aizu in the near future (after I’ve played with this suita plenty) but I haven’t decided whether I’ll go ikkyu or watanabe as he’ll be doing business again by the time I’m ready to purchase another stone.


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## adam92 (Jan 9, 2021)

Teryeki said:


> I ordered an Okunomon Shiro Suita because I asked for something to finish after my 6k gesshin and use for edge and polish and it was one of three stones he recommended in my ~$200 USD price range. I’m probably going to pick up an Aizu in the near future (after I’ve played with this suita plenty) but I haven’t decided whether I’ll go ikkyu or watanabe as he’ll be doing business again by the time I’m ready to purchase another stone.


How's your suita? Is it soft??? Do you like it?


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## tcmx3 (Jan 9, 2021)

adam92 said:


> May I know what stone you order from him? How's the feedback? I saw some koppa stone under 200 USD I worth like to try.



the first stone I bought was an ohira aka renge suita. it had suji so 250 despite being a monster stone, hardness was listed as 3.5-4.0 iirc, which seems a bit high to me, Id say it's about a half a point lower on my personal scale as it's a bit harder than my ohiro uchi or maru aosuita but only barely.

the second I am still waiting on still is a shobudani suita. their pics arent the best but here it is. this guy was a bit more at ~500 but I think that's fair since it's fairly large at ~75x190 and weighing close to a kilo, and the line isnt suji. I really tried to hold off on buying this one but I just had to know what it was like


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## Alder26 (Jan 10, 2021)

Matt Zilliox said:


> Also. For you cats new to naturals... not all shobudanis are alike. Not all ohira stones are amazing, etc etc. Each stone is unique. Ive tried 4 marou shiro suitas and all were noticeably different. These are not synthetics, theres no similarities across the mines stones. Certainly the strata plays as much if not more importance, but even then, my 3 tenjyou are totally different


Totally agree! I will say though that one of the reasons that Aizu is such a desired natural is because of how (relatively speaking) consistent they are. Other mines definitey produce much more variance than Aizu.


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## Teryeki (Jan 10, 2021)

adam92 said:


> How's your suita? Is it soft??? Do you like it?



So far, and I’ve really only just begun touching it, I think it’s slightly harder than I expected (was hoping more towards the 3.5 instead of 4) and it’s a mud machine on wide bevels, but for just the edge, not so much. I have a lot to learn so I’m looking forward to exploring this stone more before I jump into another one.


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