# Custom makers, deposits and the fallout from the PR (!!) fiasco



## alterwisser (Jul 4, 2016)

If you have read some of the recent posts about the Pierre Rodrigue fallout, you know that I was very outspoken about the topic. It looks like I offended some people with my comments (some of them have been deleted), which I want to apologize for. I did not intend to do that, but I do have to admit that I am outspoken and emotional about topics that I feel passionate about. I am always joking that my wife (Spanish/Catalan) and myself (German) are not living up to our stereotypes, with her being level-headed, rational and analytic ... and me being an emotional, hot-headed trainwreck.

Anyhow. I wanted to follow up on the discussions with a quick point of view on customer makers and their business procedures. The way I see it, not anyone else. Please feel free to agree or disagree, and if you're a maker, I would love to get your take on it as well. This is not about Pierre Rodrigue. For full disclosure, I have had dealings with 6 custom makers, 4 of those knives I have received so far. I have paid a minimal deposit (less than 10%) for one, about 25% for another and about 30% for a third. I have not paid any deposits for any of the other knives.

For better reading, and because I like lists, let's number some of my thoughts on this ...

1) Even if you're a part time maker, you should be able to have a rough idea when you can deliver the knife. No one here will argue or complain about a month or even a couple of months delay ... we all know that life gets in the way, and we all have been late with stuff at work. I sure have been. With one of my custom knives, it took something like 3-4 blades to get mine right. Of course that delays the process. BUT: The maker was proactive in communicating that delay (and it wasn't much anyway). Which brings me to ...

2) Be transparent in your communication. This is the easiest and maybe most important part. If you know you cannot keep a promised deadline, write an email and say so. This forum is so understanding, it's borderline insane when you consider we are talking about serious business here for some, considering the dollar amounts involved. No one will crucify you (the maker) for being open and proactive in your communication. Again, looking at myself ... every time I was late with work and waited for my manager to ask about it, it caused bad blood and problems. Every time I realized I would be late and reached out to ask for more time, I got very positive and understanding feedback.

3) Deposits! This is a makers personal choice, I get it. But I do suggest taking a small deposit to make sure that a customer is serious about the project. Take a bigger deposit if the customer requests very expensive materials or such a unique knife that it would be hard to sell at a profit in case the customer backs out.

4) Be professional and courteous about this. I hate to say "the customer is always right", but no matter if this is your main job or a hobby that pays you a little bit on the side, you need to respect that people are paying you hundreds of dollars, sometimes or some of it upfront. And while I am in the fortunate situation of situation of being able to afford paying for expensive knives, for some this might mean saving for a while and putting off other expenses. Please respect people and their hard earned money the way you want people to respect you.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. I won't get into how I feel that this forum is overprotective of (some) custom makers here. I think there's a lot of information to be found once you start talking to people via PM's. And honestly, as a community I feel that we should also protect the members who are (potential) customers by being able to post experiences with makers that are not all rosy and great. After all, that is what happens to any other business these days where customer reviews are a key element of success or failure for businesses. 

My two cents. But if the PR fiasco has shown us anything, I would say it's this: Just be open, transparent and proactive with your communication and all will be good as this community really is a very forgiving family ...


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## daveb (Jul 4, 2016)

Well said.


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## zetieum (Jul 4, 2016)

Whatever is the PR fiasco (I know nothing about it), what you wrote is to the point. When it come to selling things, it is a business and .... business is business. What you wrote is equally valid that one sells custom knives or apples. Delay - price - communication- customer service - respect. All of that is important.

I am in contact with a couple of custom makers. So far, it is fantastic journey that I am having with each one of them. It is something very different than just buying a new blade: the pleasure begins when you draft the first mail that you are going to send to the maker to tell him that you are considering having a knife made for you. I strongly recommend to go through this for all the aficionados of this forum.


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## alterwisser (Jul 4, 2016)

zetieum said:


> Whatever is the PR fiasco (I know nothing about it), what you wrote is to the point. When it come to selling things, it is a business and .... business is business. What you wrote is equally valid that one sells custom knives or apples. Delay - price - communication- customer service - respect. All of that is important.
> 
> I am in contact with a couple of custom makers. So far, it is fantastic journey that I am having with each one of them. It is something very different than just buying a new blade: the pleasure begins when you draft the first mail that you are going to send to the maker to tell him that you are considering having a knife made for you. I strongly recommend to go through this for all the aficionados of this forum.



I wholeheartedly agree with you. The process is fantastic... I love it and I am happy spending more on a knife just to be this involved in a knife coming to life.

As long as the process looks like what i described above, that is [emoji6]


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 4, 2016)

In my experience, some of the vendors are much better about communication than others. I won't put anyone on blast here, but there are stark differences. And Jon is great.


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## alterwisser (Jul 4, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> In my experience, some of the vendors are much better about communication than others. I won't put anyone on blast here, but there are stark differences. And Jon is great.



I think most of the vendors are good/great. When it comes to custom makers you see bigger differences ...


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 4, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> I think most of the vendors are good/great. When it comes to custom makers you see bigger differences ...



Ok, fair point, that makes sense. Yes, that's what I should have said.


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## jessf (Jul 4, 2016)

Once upon a time a I didn't have a workshop but had access to one on a regular basis. I was helping a friend make his own furniture and making a few pieces on the side. Then a friend came with a request to make a bench out of a piece of walnut she bought. No biggie. No sooner did I get it started but the access to the shop dried up and the owner, as many with money often seem to do, disappeared and went to italy for some "time" leaving my wood locked in the shop. This went on for almost a year until the opening of the shop coincided with my purchase of a home with it's own shop. My friend was understanding and I was doing the whole thing for free anyway. But the stress of having that hanging out there was too much. I got the bench done in a few weeks once I was able to retrieve the wood and she walked away with an $800+ piece of fine furniture for the $90 she spent on the wood. Long story short, I'd rather make it myself than wait for someone else.


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## Noodle Soup (Jul 4, 2016)

I've been dealing with custom knifemakers since the late 60's and have learned many lessens the hard way. No one man custom shop can ever totally predict the future as far as delivery times. A simple case of the flu or a minor injure will put him behind. Any of the common family emergencies we all have will equally put him behind. Very few aren't working hand to mouth and deposits disappear with out a trace or a knife being finished. Bottom line, I don't pay up front for any knife. This makes many makers angry with me as they all think they are different from those other guys. Until they aren't. When the knife is finished, let me know and I will pay for it. It is funny how many never do seem to finish an order or even tell me why.


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## gic (Jul 4, 2016)

Well one idea is that custom makers could ask for a very small deposit to secure ones place on the line <5%??, then a larger deposit for materials etc say 4 months from delivery. I choose 4 months because paypal has a six month window for refunds...

That way buyers who use paypal have a very good chance to get their money back and makers have 2 months leeway...


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 4, 2016)

The paypal window does protect the buyer. A stand alone custom maker under different circumstances can take a long time to complete orders. I think a small deposit is reasonable. 

Have had experience of maker closing shop (not knives) and not returning 50% deposits, I was not the only one in this case. Would not return calls even from BBB. Chalked it up as a learning experience.


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## gic (Jul 4, 2016)

One can even imagine a scenario that a small deposit to secure place, then full payment when the knife is (approx) 4 months away from delivery with the understanding that at 5+ months, no knife means refund asked from Paypal... If people still want the knife and makers agrees, then after refund a new paypal payment could be made when knife is 4 months away from delivery!


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## zetieum (Jul 4, 2016)

Although I am a newbie on this forum, I agree with @Alterwisser: it is important that the members can write about all the aspects of their interactions with vendors/makers: the good, the bad and ugly. Obviously the writing has to be polite and sincere, but when smth goes wrong with a maker (or vendor), it is important to share with the community, IMHO.


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## Matus (Jul 4, 2016)

I find a resonable deposit for the place in line OK (makes people think a little more in advance and it makes the planning of work more predictable - in particular if the queue is 1+ years) - e.g. like Bloodroot does. Also pre-payment for special materials or some very special product is OK, but other than that it should be payment upon completion. I would not pay a 50%+ for a 4 digit knife in advance. Just seems unnecessary to me.


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

Lots of points of view here but none with any consideration of the guy giving up his time to belt out a knife for you...

These guys are millionares doing it for the laughs.

While you would be hard pressed to find me giving out a deposit, as i have said that is my own personal risk assessment. They makers are within their right and could easily be argued that they shoukd be entitled to cover their materials and potentially some, if not all, of their potential profit if you pull out after they have commenced any work.

I know that is a harsh sounding line but that is business.

I guess i just take can see both sides of this discussion. Though i will agree with a small fee to put yourself in the line and then potentially 50-full payment upfront. Nothing more annoying than putting in all the work and having some idiot not pay.


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## ecchef (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> ....giving up his time to belt out a knife for you...


What, like they're doing you a personal favor? Isn't that what they're soliciting business for?


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## chiffonodd (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> These guys are millionares doing it for the laughs.



Wait what for real


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

chiffonodd said:


> Wait what for real



Sorry massive typo. Meant aren't


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Sorry massive typo. Meant aren't



I took it as sarcasm.


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

ecchef said:


> What, like they're doing you a personal favor? Isn't that what they're soliciting business for?



Slightly ironic statement given what some of the chefs around here can say/act about what they do.

Yes they are running a small business but most are also compensating you with their full time income. And only charging you at cost or only just over cost.


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

And all I was trying to point out is there are two sides to this and we aren't talking about big corporations. Heck most of these guys give lifetime warranties and maintenance along with the knife


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## ecchef (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Slightly ironic statement given what some of the chefs around here can say/act about what they do.



What does that have to do with anything? And if you're looking to make this personal...don't.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Lots of points of view here but none with any consideration of the guy giving up his time to belt out a knife for you...



Uhm... if he doesn't want to give up his time to belt out a knife for me, he shouldn't offer to sell knives.



malexthekid said:


> Nothing more annoying than putting in all the work and having some idiot not pay.



...unless it's shelling out hundreds of dollars and having some idiot not provide the goods you commissioned.


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## chinacats (Jul 4, 2016)

My current thought on giving a small percentage as a down payment: I don't mind a small payment but I'll do some research beforehand (finding other owners and ask by pm what their experience was like, browse their subforum for hints of problems, etc).

Malexthekid, my side off out I'd that if the maker can't afford the materials, maybe they shouldn't be in this business...


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## brainsausage (Jul 4, 2016)

In this community- or the internets in general- if someone doesn't pay for a finished knife, it's ridiculously easy to find a home for said knife at the same price point as the originally agreed upon deal, so I find this to be a poor argument.

Long story short, you're exchanging your time and effort for another person's time and effort. And That should be acknowledged by both parties equally.


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

chinacats said:


> My current thought on giving a small percentage as a down payment: I don't mind a small payment but I'll do some research beforehand (finding other owners and ask by pm what their experience was like, browse their subforum for hints of problems, etc).
> 
> Malexthekid, my side off out I'd that if the maker can't afford the materials, maybe they shouldn't be in this business...



Chinacats that goes both ways... maybe if the buyer can't afford the loss he shouldn't be buying the knife.

And not talking about purchasing of raw materials because a maker should be building up capital to purchase raw materials in bulk, it is more cost effective to do it that way. 

But I would suggest that the moment his hammer or grinder hits that steel he should be compensated for that material... Now there is arguments on onselling etc. But i wouldnt complain if i had to get pay for materials until he could sell to someone else.

Or a 50% deposit on commencement of work. Refundable on sale of the knife if you don't go through with it.

It is unfair for us to expect the maker to take all the risk. Or if thatvis our expectation wait for the price to triple because one knife sale has to cover 3 bad ones.


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## rj_1 (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Chinacats that goes both ways... maybe if the buyer can't afford the loss he shouldn't be buying the knife.



Wait....seriously? I don't understand this argument at all. Am I missing something?


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

ecchef said:


> What does that have do do with anything? And if you're looking to make this personal...don't.



Wasn't taking it personally however my statement stills runs true. If you take that stance then a chef is just some dude putting your dinner on a plate... which i don't agree with.

And the chefs comment wasn't aimed at you, or anyone in particular, just remembering some comments in the "customer is always right" style threads that pop up.


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## brainsausage (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Chinacats that goes both ways... maybe if the buyer can't afford the loss he shouldn't be buying the knife.
> 
> And not talking about purchasing of raw materials because a maker should be building up capital to purchase raw materials in bulk, it is more cost effective to do it that way.
> 
> ...



Your comment regarding whether the seller can afford the loss is ridiculous. We're not talking about trading futures here. It's a straight exchange of money for goods. And as I said above, the cost of materials is easily defrayed by 'reselling' the item if the original buyer doesn't complete the transaction.


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Your comment regarding whether the seller can afford the loss is ridiculous. We're not talking about trading futures here. It's a straight exchange of money for goods. And as I said above, the cost of materials is easily defeated by 'reselling' the item if the original buyer doesn't complete the transaction.



If he can resell a custom item. 

Sorry but people got bent out of shape (and rightly so) because some makers hold deposits for years without any clear indication of when delivery is... But you think it is acceptable for a maker to carry his loss indefinitely on the hope of the sale of a commissioned piece of work.

Think about it, would you be happy to put in a days work only to have your boss say "oh no, no pay for today, the client decided he didn't want it. But don't worry I'll pay you when someone picks it up".


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## chinacats (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Chinacats that goes both ways... maybe if the buyer can't afford the loss he shouldn't be buying the knife.



This has nothing to do with whether someone can afford a knife...this is about sellers ripping off buyers, plain and simple. Again, I wound up giving a three year loan with no interest to this maker and have nothing to show for it...other than my initial deposit back (after begging in a post in his subforum!). A headache, no interest on my money he held, and no product to show for it...just disappointment, frustration and anger. Screw the piddly interest, but I got ******* nothing out of this deal but a headache. Perhaps you'd feel different if you were one of the people that got ******? 

My only consolation was that my deposit was for a rather cheap carbon fork as opposed to a set of knives, etc...that and finally just getting my ******* money back.


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## brainsausage (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> If he can resell a custom item.
> 
> Sorry but people got bent out of shape (and rightly so) because some makers hold deposits for years without any clear indication of when delivery is... But you think it is acceptable for a maker to carry his loss indefinitely on the hope of the sale of a commissioned piece of work.
> 
> Think about it, would you be happy to put in a days work only to have your boss say "oh no, no pay for today, the client decided he didn't want it. But don't worry I'll pay you when someone picks it up".



But that's simply not the case here. Any maker of any re-known- which is who we're discussing here- can very easily sell said items through this or other forums. Nevermind social media platforms. The culture is hungry for custom work. Which is why we're having this conversation in the first place.


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

chinacats said:


> This has nothing to do with whether someone can afford a knife...this is about sellers ripping off buyers, plain and simple. Again, I wound up giving a three year loan with no interest to this maker and have nothing to show for it...other than my initial deposit back. A headache, no interest on my money he held, and no product to show for it...just disappointment, frustration and anger. Screw the piddly interest, but I got ******* nothing out of this deal but a headache. Perhaps you'd feel different if you were one of the people that got ******?



We aren't talking about a specific maker and i totally agree with you...

As I said at joining a waitlist i believe no deposit or a minuscule token one is the only thing acceptable. But once work commences I can't disagree with a maker if they want partial payment at that point to cover some costs.


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## chinacats (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> We aren't talking about a specific maker and i totally agree with you...
> 
> As I said at joining a waitlist i believe no deposit or a minuscule token one is the only thing acceptable. But once work commences I can't disagree with a maker if they want partial payment at that point to cover some costs.



Well, I am talking about a specific example and in my case (as in others recently brought up) there was never any work done other than lip service. Again, I don't have a problem with a small deposit (50% is excessive) but I'm not giving someone money to live on while they lead me on about how many problems they have in their life and give excuse one after the other about why they haven't done what they said they would do. 

I'll pay for work, I expect good work but most importantly I expect honesty.


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## Anton (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> And all I was trying to point out is there are two sides to this and we aren't talking about big corporations. Heck most of these guys give lifetime warranties and maintenance along with the knife



Sorry, but this is is horses dung


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## brainsausage (Jul 4, 2016)

chinacats said:


> Well, I am talking about a specific example and in my case (as in others recently brought up) there was never any work done other than lip service.



I think it's probably best to keep this discussion in generalities, as opposed to specific individuals.


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> But that's simply not the case here. Any maker of any re-known- which is who we're discussing here- can very easily sell said items through this or other forums. Nevermind social media platforms. The culture is hungry for custom work.



So you say... yet i can point to many instances where knives that people rave about take over a month to sell by these makers you talk about, probably because of their high price.

I have worked in a consulting industry where one in every 3 of my jobs i had issue with people wanting to pay me because they didn't like the answers i gave to their problems.

Nothing wrong with my work, it just wasn't what they wanted to hear, so i can understand the opposite side of the argument about recovering costs.

Again I am only talking about covering costs once, or just before, work commences. Not paying out 6+ months before they even think of starting work.


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## chinacats (Jul 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> I think it's probably best to keep this discussion in generalities, as opposed to specific individuals.



word...


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## brainsausage (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> So you say... yet i can point to many instances where knives that people rave about take over a month to sell by these makers you talk about, probably because of their high price.
> 
> I have worked in a consulting industry where one in every 3 of my jobs i had issue with people wanting to pay me because they didn't like the answers i gave to their problems.
> 
> ...




You're talking about a much more specialized service, with a very concentrated end buyer. You can't just hop on FB and try to sell a focused consultation based on an very specific series of circumstances.


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

chinacats said:


> word...



So we actually agree... at least on a fundamental level.


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## daveb (Jul 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> I think it's probably best to keep this discussion in generalities, as opposed to specific individuals.



+1

If this turns into another pissing contest it will get shut down - something I / we really don't like to do.

Luv ya Jim..


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

Anton said:


> Sorry, but this is is horses dung



How is that BS?

These guys don't have the capital to carry losses like a big corporation, they also tend to offer better warranties than them (mostly because their QA is a lot higher due to lower volumes etc.)

It seems lots are jumping down my throat without actually bothering to read what I am writing.

Paying a significant deposit upfront on joining a waitlist isn't on in my books, and i would think very hard about going with a maker that wants that.

However paying of a deposit, or partial payment, on commencement of work to cover materials, overheads etc. is a fair proposition, and of course should coincide with a reasonably accurate delivery timeframe.


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> But that's simply not the case here. Any maker of any re-known- which is who we're discussing here- can very easily sell said items through this or other forums. Nevermind social media platforms. The culture is hungry for custom work. Which is why we're having this conversation in the first place.



I'm not sure that's an accurate assessment.

I've been in close contact with quite a few very well renowned makers who have told me that they do struggle to sell custom work if the buyer doesn't follow through (at least without discounting it). I think it's reasonable to take a deposit and deduct the amount lost for the smith if he has to resell the knife at a lower price.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> But that's simply not the case here. Any maker of any re-known- which is who we're discussing here- can very easily sell said items through this or other forums. Nevermind social media platforms. The culture is hungry for custom work. Which is why we're having this conversation in the first place.



Yes, the knife can be sold, but usually not at the original price. Consider a custom home. If I can afford a custom built home, why should I buy one that has been built to someone else's specification instead of having one built to my liking? Only if there is sufficient motivation, usually in terms of a reduced price.


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## brainsausage (Jul 4, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Yes, the knife can be sold, but usually not at the original price. Consider a custom home. If I can afford a custom built home, why should I buy one that has been built to someone else's specification instead of having one built to my liking? Only if there is sufficient motivation, usually in terms of a reduced price.



Fair enough. But I think that depends, in both circumstances, the level of customization.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Fair enough. But I think that depends, in both circumstances, the level of customization.



Then would you think it's fair for the smith to require a deposit that represents the anticipated loss if the knife has to be sold on the open market?


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## brainsausage (Jul 4, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Then would you think it's fair for the smith to require a deposit that represents the anticipated loss if the knife has to be sold on the open market?



If it's something approaching a strictly artistic/conversation piece and isn't as much oriented towards daily use- yes. Much like that ivory handled curiosity that just popped up on the new knife thread.


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## gic (Jul 4, 2016)

But that is the point of getting a big deposit when one is 4 months away, prior to that time it doesn't seem to me that the maker has really invested any time in materials probably and once ones name has risen that high on the maker's list, paying for a substantial portion of the knife is not unreasonable - provided the maker knows that if the four months becomes 6, they will have to refund the money...


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

gic said:


> But that is the point of getting a big deposit when one is 4 months away, prior to that time it doesn't seem to me that the maker hasn't really invested any time in materials probably and once ones name has risen that high on the maker's list, paying for a substantial portion of the knife is not unreasonable - provided the maker knows that if the four months becomes 6, they will have to refund the money...



Well that is what I was saying but it seemed it wasn't acceptable...

Sorry should just leave this thread be my opinion doesn't seem valid here.


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## brainsausage (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Well that is what I was saying but it seemed it wasn't acceptable...
> 
> Sorry should just leave this thread be my opinion doesn't seem valid here.



It is valid. This is all about opinions and debating. I wouldn't take it personal my friend.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 4, 2016)

Short answer it depends

With Watanabe as an example, you can go back and forth with correspondence and don't pay (100%) until he begins, and the knife is usually done in a couple months. If using PayPal (does anyone even use money orders or bank transfers?) it's no worries for time. That said, I'm not sure if I'd consider my Watanabe knives to be "truly" custom in the same sense as dealing with a custom maker.

I think just about anyone needs to allow some time/resources for preliminary inquires (eg marketing and outreach) or have such info available (online for example) if answering common questions (approx cost per unit of length, steel type; up-charges for premium/rare handle materials, etc.) are becoming repetitive or burdensome. Once a potential client has the info and is looking to discuss specifics I think it's fair for a maker to request a nominal deposit the amount of which should ultimately depend on the level of engagement provided to the client pending their "actual" spot on the list and overall timeframe. Once things are picking up and work is commencing, requiring additional payment is not unreasonable especially if a client wants something that'd be difficult to sell (eg gaudy/tacky handle, odd profile/size, expensive upgrades) to protect the maker from loss if the client falls of the face of the earth (did this happen with a painting?). There are a lot of dynamics and different scenarios so it follows that there'll be different policies depending on the maker.


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## toddnmd (Jul 4, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Well that is what I was saying but it seemed it wasn't acceptable...
> 
> Sorry should just leave this thread be my opinion doesn't seem valid here.



Personally, I disagree with a lot of what you have expressed here. But that doesn't mean I find it unacceptable or invalid--feel free to express your opinion--that's what we're all doing.


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## Ruso (Jul 4, 2016)

Names should not be kept secret. Reputation is THEE best marketing tool for small (or big) makers. If people do not share their bad experiences (along with good ones) with names attached what is the point? Once the maker(s) see that their reputation is under harm, they might re-think few things. Otherwise there is no incentive. Word of mouth can be quite a powerful tool.

Perusing legal routes won't be easy, will take very long time, can be costly, and might yield zero net results.


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## brainsausage (Jul 4, 2016)

Ruso said:


> Names should not be kept secret. Reputation is THEE best marketing tool for small (or big) makers. If people do not share their bad experiences (along with good ones) with names attached what is the point? Once the maker(s) see that their reputation is under harm, they might re-think few things. Otherwise there is no incentive. Word of mouth can be quite a powerful tool.
> 
> Perusing legal routes won't be easy, will take very long time, can be costly, and might yield zero net results.



I totally agree with you. But I don't feel that this a thread built to call out people. More to air grievances, and express a more ideal experience when commissioning a custom piece.


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## gic (Jul 4, 2016)

But it really seems that for a custom maker to expect a serious amount of money more than 6 months before the knife is delivered makes all the risk be on the shoulders of the buyer - or am I missing something??


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## brainsausage (Jul 4, 2016)

gic said:


> But it really seems that for a custom maker to expect a serious amount of money more than 6 months before the knife is delivered makes all the risk be on the shoulders of the buyer - or am I missing something??



Nope. You're completely on point IMO.


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## malexthekid (Jul 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Nope. You're completely on point IMO.



However no deposit puts all the risk on their shoulder. So the happy medium should be where it is.

As for what a happy medium is, that is the question... partial payment up front... or full payment at the end but you are paying a premium for their risk... Heaps of ways to do it but we really should be looking for that middle ground so the risk is shared.


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## Matus (Jul 5, 2016)

I am just wondering - what risks does the maker has apart from the buyer ordering something completely weird (like double edged gyuto with pink stars on green handle) that would be hard to sell if the orderer is cancelled too late?


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## zetieum (Jul 5, 2016)

Ruso said:


> Names should not be kept secret. Reputation is THEE best marketing tool for small (or big) makers. If people do not share their bad experiences (along with good ones) with names attached what is the point? Once the maker(s) see that their reputation is under harm, they might re-think few things. Otherwise there is no incentive. Word of mouth can be quite a powerful tool.
> 
> Perusing legal routes won't be easy, will take very long time, can be costly, and might yield zero net results.



lus1:


----------



## malexthekid (Jul 5, 2016)

The risk that the knife can't be sold for full price, which is quite common.


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## mikedtran (Jul 5, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> The risk that the knife can't be sold for full price, which is quite common.



I would lean towards that the maker is out pricing his market if this is the case. I'm pretty sure if any of the customs Ian, Mareko, Devin, etc. did didn't go to the original buyer, they would be able to fetch more than the price he quoted for the custom.

That being said there are obviously customizations that some people pay additional for that others might not (upgraded handles and sayas).


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 5, 2016)

Matus said:


> I am just wondering - what risks does the maker has apart from the buyer ordering something completely weird (like double edged gyuto with pink stars on green handle) that would be hard to sell if the orderer is cancelled too late?





mikedtran said:


> I would lean towards that the maker is out pricing his market if this is the case. I'm pretty sure if any of the customs Ian, Mareko, Devin, etc. did didn't go to the original buyer, they would be able to fetch more than the price he quoted for the custom.
> 
> That being said there are obviously customizations that some people pay additional for that others might not (upgraded handles and sayas).



You'd be surprised at some of the guys who have a hard time selling pre-made knives.

I think some perspective is necessary here. If someone takes 2 weeks to make a knife, and he has a 2 year waiting list, that's 50 people in line (at most).

Maybe there's someone in the line who's ready to go and wants what he has available, or maybe someone not on their books picks it up, but the point I'm making is that kitchen knife makers are usually not so in demand as we might think.

The other thing is that some makers spend a HUGE amount of time working with the customer, prior to making the knife. The cost of this time is built into the process and it's not fair to pass this on to another customer who didn't get the custom experience (at least this is the view of some smiths I've spoken to).


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## Matus (Jul 5, 2016)

Those are valid points indeed - in particular when it comes to communication with the customer. 

But I do think that most custom knives are not that far (for given maker) from his non-custom knives and are thus sellable as one of a kind. Most makers who do offer customs knives and here and there some direct sales do not seem to have hanging knives around for all that long before they sell - but that is only my personal impression, I am not following all tha many makers too closely, but just to name a few: Will Catchside, Bryan Raquin, Ian Haburn, Hoss, etc. I could not tell whether a knife XY was a custom or is a one of a kind knife that the maker made according to his own taste.

Once the custom knife was sold to 3rd party and as long as the price was about the same as planned, than the time spent working with the customer is also implicitly payed for.

Again - I am fine with some partial deposit that under conditions agreed may or may not be refundable, but would hesitat to pay a large fraction of the price upfront. One can think of different models when it comes to deposits - for example only take one once the discussion about the design and details starts (usually shortly before production) and materials are ordered.


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## alterwisser (Jul 5, 2016)

Matus said:


> Again - I am fine with some partial deposit that under conditions agreed may or may not be refundable, .



THAT is important: it needs to be clearly stated that the deposit is non-refundable. I think Haburns $50 is non-refundable.... and I think that's absolutely fine, it's a small amount.

Larger amounts shouldn't be non-refundable, especially not in a case where the makers backs out (doesn't deliver) ...


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## zetieum (Jul 5, 2016)

About the deposit
It is not a shocking practice to ask for a deposit whatever is the knife. Something like 10% sounds pretty reasonable. The need of a deposit is, in my sense, highly dependent on the level of customisation. Meaning that if you ask for a knife that is super special, I would not be shocked to be ask for a bigger deposit, because it is indeed going to be more difficult to sell on the market. 
In mind: I am left-handed. If I ask for a left-handed grind, I would not be shocked to have to pay more up-front. 
About the rick about not seeing your money back: what others have written about paypal etc do actually insure the buyer. Moreover, it is also a small community thing: if someone gets a bad experience with a maker, it can share it on this forum or other and the maker will eventually loose his client.


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## Dan P. (Jul 5, 2016)

I think the main problem here is makers biting off more than they can chew. Very easily done, especially if you are a one man band.
As far as a deposit, common sense would suggest that an appropriate amount would be found using the axes of level of customization vs. length of waiting list, no? If common sense is not being applied by one or the other (or both) of the parties involved, then caution should be excercised.


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## oldcookie (Jul 5, 2016)

My two cents...

If you are willing to pay upfront for a Kickstarter project, that's effectively a mass produced item, you should be willing to pay upfront for a custom item made for you specifically. So having backed a number of Kickstarter campaigns, I would follow that rule. (Just to be clear, I didn't back Bulat or Misen. )

Personally, I think a small amount for reservation of a place in line, then full amount when work starts and timeline is clear is reasonable for both the maker and the customer.

Other than that, I think clear communication, expected times, etc. are all business practices that should be considered minimum customer service.


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## mikedtran (Jul 5, 2016)

I think Dan brings up a good point on the amount of customization going into a project being an important factor in the deposit amount. If the maker is going to make me a unique single bevel that others would not like, I think it is fair to ask for a larger deposit at the time the knife production (forging/shaping) starts. 

I personally feel comfortable with most knife makers making a nominal deposit of $50-$100 at the very onset to show that I am truly interested. On a very custom project I would likely be comfortable with 50% deposit at the onset of production with some understanding of estimated delivery time.


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## jessf (Jul 5, 2016)

should exchange rates be considered here as well? At the time many deposits were made the exchange between the US and CND dollars was more on par. Now, there's a larger gap. So, not only is the value on the original dollar down, but to pay back means to pay more than the value of the deposit. 

No excuses of course, just putting that out there for as a factor to consider for anyone wanting to purchase outside their country. 

I'm still waiting for the Soviet knife I bought with Prussian francs. I think the franc is making a comeback, anyone else agree?


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## zetieum (Jul 5, 2016)

jessf said:


> should exchange rates be considered here as well? At the time many deposits were made the exchange between the US and CND dollars was more on par. Now, there's a larger gap. So, not only is the value on the original dollar down, but to pay back means to pay more than the value of the deposit.



well, that's completly the buyer's problem. The maker sell a product in its his own currency, which is OK. Now if the buyer want to buy, he has to adapt. If he does not want to take risk, he should buy goods sold in his own country. The same goes with custom taxes, VAT etc...


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## mikedtran (Jul 5, 2016)

Many makers I have worked with do their entire pricing based on USD even if they are based in other countries.


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## chinacats (Jul 5, 2016)

mikedtran said:


> Many makers I have worked with do their entire pricing based on USD even if they are based in other countries.



Many others do not...


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## jessf (Jul 5, 2016)

Unless the maker keeps the deposit in US currency and intends to only spend it in US currency, they will at some point need to exchange into their own currency.

So, if the US and CDN dollar are on par, a depot of $300 US is equal to $300 CDN. Now Flash forward to the present when a request for that $300 back is made, the US and CDN dollar are no longer on par, so that $300 US deposit means that $388 CDN must be paid back.

Just something to consider when buying across the boarder. Your risk exposure increases when you factor this in.


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## mikedtran (Jul 5, 2016)

chinacats said:


> Many others do not...



True, it really comes down to their choice and risk assessment of their current currency. Though such is life in buying/selling anything cross border. 

I work with Japanese vendors and some take deposits for custom orders (Shigs, Katos, etc) in USD others in JPY. I have no preference which as I have cards/banks that do exact exchange with no charges either on the transaction or inflation of the exchange rate.


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## Noodle Soup (Jul 5, 2016)

To each his own but my policy is if the waiting list is over 6 months I think very hard before I order. How bad do I need a knife I can wait that long for? If it is over a year just forget it. Very few makers with lists that go into the several year category don't end up in trouble with their customers sooner or later.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 5, 2016)

I've paid 100% to take advantage of sale/discount pricing. It has also helped when the CAD/USD drops (I've saved at least 10% from this on some transactions). I acknowledge there may be additional risk to such an approach but I felt the individuals are trustworthy. If something were to happen I probably wouldn't be able to rely on PayPal, and would have to resort to other recovery methods, but am quite certain I won't have to go those routes. Communication can go a long way in coming up with a game plan if needed as most people are understandable; trying to withdraw from the situation doesn't solve much and makes people upset.


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## alterwisser (Jul 5, 2016)

Bloodroot didn't ask me to pay anything upfront, back then their waiting list was 31 months ... now it's 44 ... insane!




Noodle Soup said:


> To each his own but my policy is if the waiting list is over 6 months I think very hard before I order. How bad do I need a knife I can wait that long for? If it is over a year just forget it. Very few makers with lists that go into the several year category don't end up in trouble with their customers sooner or later.


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## Matus (Jul 5, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> Bloodroot didn't ask me to pay anything upfront, back then their waiting list was 31 months ... now it's 44 ... insane!



Hmmm, I did have to pay $100 deposit (though I did not mind). I think I have some 12+ more months to go (it was 24 when I joined the queue)


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 5, 2016)

zetieum said:


> well, that's completly the buyer's problem. The maker sell a product in its his own currency, which is OK. Now if the buyer want to buy, he has to adapt. If he does not want to take risk, he should buy goods sold in his own country. The same goes with custom taxes, VAT etc...



To me, that's the seller's problem. If you charge me a $100 deposit and your currency goes down and I deserve a refund, you make me whole ($100). Now, on the flip side, if you set prices in your own currency and leave it to the buyer to handle the exchange (probably via credit card), you're covered and the buyer gets back whatever your currency converts to.

I mean, if you took a deposit in dollars and your currency went the other way, would you refund the buyer extra money? I rather suspect not.


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 5, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> To me, that's the seller's problem. If you charge me a $100 deposit and your currency goes down and I deserve a refund, you make me whole ($100). Now, on the flip side, if you set prices in your own currency and leave it to the buyer to handle the exchange (probably via credit card), you're covered and the buyer gets back whatever your currency converts to.
> 
> I mean, if you took a deposit in dollars and your currency went the other way, would you refund the buyer extra money? I rather suspect not.



I think that the situation outlined is unlikely to ever come up. I've never worked with any craftsman who didn't want to be paid in his own currency, and any dollar amounts (for non-US makers) were presented only for guidance purposes.

I would agree that with a refundable deposit, you should get paid back the same as you put in (in the same currency).


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## Smurfmacaw (Jul 5, 2016)

Actually the best deal for you is to agree all transactions are in USD (or whatever currency in your country of residence.) That way you have zero exchange risk so if he refunds your money, and the exchange rate went adversely, the vendor would have to make up the difference.

Conversely, it's advantageous for the maker to work in his home currency for the same reason, the other person assumes the volatility risk.



mikedtran said:


> True, it really comes down to their choice and risk assessment of their current currency. Though such is life in buying/selling anything cross border.
> 
> I work with Japanese vendors and some take deposits for custom orders (Shigs, Katos, etc) in USD others in JPY. I have no preference which as I have cards/banks that do exact exchange with no charges either on the transaction or inflation of the exchange rate.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 5, 2016)

I lost $ to PayPal before due to this (CAD to USD then back to CAD later). I called them on it and got a credit back.


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## Dardeau (Jul 5, 2016)

I have, twice, paid the full price up front for knives to be made on a four month time scale. One was early, the other on the dot. If I'd been burned I wouldn't have to worry about it, it was within PayPal. 

I can easily see where one person could get behind, especially with a day job, family, etc. I would be very sketched to hand over a deposit in that situation, but to a full time professional or small company with a reasonable time line, sure.


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## RDalman (Jul 5, 2016)

Very interesting discussion. Thank you everyone participating


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## Chef Doom (Jul 6, 2016)

Muahaha. MuahaHAHAHA. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *cough cough cough* hahaha.....


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## JBroida (Jul 6, 2016)

Chef Doom said:


> Muahaha. MuahaHAHAHA. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *cough cough cough* hahaha.....



he's back


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## brainsausage (Jul 6, 2016)

That reminds me- I haven't listened to the Danger Doom album in a couple years&#129300;


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## daveb (Jul 6, 2016)

Chef Doom said:


> Muahaha. MuahaHAHAHA. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *cough cough cough* hahaha.....



Glad to see you got released early. This time.:cool2:


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## Chef Doom (Jul 7, 2016)

Whooohoooo! 

I was going crazy in solitary confinement. I doubt I will make it through parole though hahahaha. 

To be honest, I had a chance to browse some other forums for some other hobbies. Fountain Pen people are strangely Pleasant Town friendly. Foodies are the worst snobs of all forums but seldom get into arguments. Audiophiles have too much discretionary income for my tastes. You have to be at least 1/4 troll to survive the fight forums for more than 48 hours. 

Nice to see a fellow MF Doom fan brainsausage. So many who just don't understand. :doublethumbsup:


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## ecchef (Jul 7, 2016)

Chef Doom said:


> Nice to see a fellow MF Doom fan brainsausage. So many who just don't understand. :doublethumbsup:



I'm guessing Gaudi got it?


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## brainsausage (Jul 7, 2016)

ecchef said:


> I'm guessing Gaudi got it?
> View attachment 32515



Hah! Excellent!


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## PeteF (Jul 7, 2016)

Long time lurker, this thread is very interesting. I like the way another hobby of mine handles this, custom surfboards. Most makers require $100-200 up front (on a $600-1500 board) for materials, and the balance is paid when the board is finished. That seems reasonable and fair to me. I would never pay the balance up front, that's an excellent way to be put into 'it will be done next week, I promise!' purgatory.


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## Chef Doom (Jul 7, 2016)

ecchef said:


> I'm guessing Gaudi got it?
> View attachment 32515



Awesome!



PeteF said:


> Long time lurker, this thread is very interesting. I like the way another hobby of mine handles this, custom surfboards. Most makers require $100-200 up front (on a $600-1500 board) for materials, and the balance is paid when the board is finished. That seems reasonable and fair to me. I would never pay the balance up front, that's an excellent way to be put into 'it will be done next week, I promise!' purgatory.



That is the smart move. It's always scary to give the full amount of a "to be determined item". Every shop I found that does bespoke denim wants the full amount before they thread a single needle. I was recently burned on a local order. Some guys look for women that can cook and clean, I need one that can cut fabric patterns. Anybody have a mail order bride company that they trust? Reviews would be helpful.


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## Krassi (Jul 8, 2016)

Chef Doom said:


> Whooohoooo!
> 
> I was going crazy in solitary confinement. I doubt I will make it through parole though hahahaha.
> 
> ...



Hiii!
I actually never was a fan of Hip Hop.. but MF Doom... well he convinced me that i should change my mind ..

seeya!


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## Chef Doom (Jul 9, 2016)

I wish people would stop considering the garbage on the radio as hip hop. These "rappers" are pretending to be the core of hip hop and it is an illusion. Next thing you know people will start referring to Jimi Hendrix as new age country music ahead of his time.


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## Krassi (Jul 9, 2016)

Chef Doom said:


> I wish people would stop considering the garbage on the radio as hip hop. These "rappers" are pretending to be the core of hip hop and it is an illusion. Next thing you know people will start referring to Jimi Hendrix as new age country music ahead of his time.



hahhahhaah! jeah "jimi the mad banjo hendrix".. of course ))
this "so called hip hop" can not be even called music because its missing a melody, good samples and sense .. same with the original disco-funk-soul tracks.. when david usbstick getta gets his hands on em for example )

well sorry for the off topic rocking.. but MF Doom rocks.. its a fact


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## toddnmd (Jul 10, 2016)

I don't want to get the request for resolution thread off track, but just wanted to respond to the notion that only people who have given money to a maker should be commenting. 
I absolutely disagree, as I think this is a much bigger issue. Yes, the central issue is people getting refunds or knives. But the larger issue of how this community responds is a huge one that I think is relevant to many. At least to anyone who is considering ordering a custom knife, which includes many of us. How the community responds matters a great deal. If I get in trouble down the road, am I on my own? Do the members, mods, vendors here support people who have put down money, and we have moved far past an expected delivery date? Is there responsive communication, and appropriate follow up action? 
Indeed, the reason the issues are being responded to (and hopefully resolved) are because some people continued to press their case here, and I'm happy to support those who are owed money or knives. I'm glad things are moving in the right direction.
As a result of seeing what's happened, I would never put down 100% payment on a knife, or even 50%. I think a modest deposit ($50, 10%, something like that) to demonstrate commitment, and to cover the time the maker invests in discussing design issues is fair. Perhaps a bit more money paid to cover materials just before the knife is made would be reasonable, although that doesn't seem to be the general practice, and I'm glad. Some exceptions in the case of something extreme like a 330mm gyuto or really exotic materials would be warranted.
I know people dislike legal language and contracts, but something like that would be helpful if there are issues down the road. 
I hope this forum moves toward advocating some standards that protect buyers and makers.
I'm thankful that the vast, vast majority of experiences are positive, and most people are good people who have good intentions and are trying to do right.


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## alterwisser (Jul 10, 2016)

toddnmd said:


> I don't want to get the request for resolution thread off track, but just wanted to respond to the notion that only people who have given money to a maker should be commenting.
> I absolutely disagree, as I think this is a much bigger issue.



Agreed. But a lot of those comments are being deleted. I had a couple deleted and I know others who did as well.

I'm actually a bit discouraged by this. There's very strong evidence IN THIS FORUM (just need to look for it), that this issue wasn't just health related, at least not all the time. But if someone points that out, the post will either be deleted or that person is getting somewhat harsh reactions...

I hope everyone gets their knives or deposits back asap!


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## havox07 (Jul 10, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> Agreed. But a lot of those comments are being deleted. I had a couple deleted and I know others who did as well.
> 
> I'm actually a bit discouraged by this. There's very strong evidence IN THIS FORUM (just need to look for it), that this issue wasn't just health related, at least not all the time. But if someone points that out, the post will either be deleted or that person is getting somewhat harsh reactions...
> 
> I hope everyone gets their knives or deposits back asap!



Exactly, I think I pointed out that this forum has some responsibility to ensure their members are not having issues with sponsored vendors as it does impact the forum yet my comments were deleted. Pretty disheartening to see this forum trying to cover up its members opinions on the issue. IMO as soon as some members made mentions of issues the forum should have contacted Pierre asking for answers. Sad it took so much work from a few posters for the issue to finally be on its way to being resolved, a few years and thousands later.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 10, 2016)

Well said gentlemen, I concur. 

I've spent a lot on knives and vendor services since formally joining KKF last year. If I were a new member seeing this fiasco unfold with nothing being done to help these victims, and furthermore (reasonable) comments rallying support are deleted I probably would take my business elsewhere. This apprehension should be of concern to all vendors. We are all stakeholders in this mess whether or not we have a vested pecuniary interest in the outcome. 

I acknowledge that KKF is not liable for dealings with third-party vendors, but think it is good that these discussions are taking place in public as it alleviates some concerns.



alterwisser said:


> But a lot of those comments are being deleted. I had a couple deleted and I know others who did as well.


:evilgrin:


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## jaybett (Jul 11, 2016)

As Forrest Gump so famously said, "Shite happens". Those who have been on the forums for awhile, have seen a number of makers fall onto hard times, usually caused by health issues. I think that makers in general are supportive of each other, because they are aware that an injury can sideline them for a significant amount of time. 

Sometimes a maker digs such a hole and has no idea how to get out of it. The forum came together and developed a creative solution for one maker and his customers. The forum looked like it was on its way to coming up with another solution for the Pierre Rodrigue situation. 

Obviously its a bad situation, when a maker is unable to meet his obligations. Which is only made worse when the maker stops talking with his customers. How do posts demanding refunds help, when its apparent the maker is in trouble? How do posts from people speculating on the nature of the problem help? 

Jay


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## labor of love (Jul 11, 2016)

I didn't realize this particular maker was such a shyster until forum members started to speak up. So I think it helps to spread word around the forum that certain makers shouldn't be trusted. This guy might still be taking deposits from new victims if we didn't have whistleblowers.



jaybett said:


> As Forrest Gump so famously said, "Shite happens". Those who have been on the forums for awhile, have seen a number of makers fall onto hard times, usually caused by health issues. I think that makers in general are supportive of each other, because they are aware that an injury can sideline them for a significant amount of time.
> 
> Sometimes a maker digs such a hole and has no idea how to get out of it. The forum came together and developed a creative solution for one maker and his customers. The forum looked like it was on its way to coming up with another solution for the Pierre Rodrigue situation.
> 
> ...


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## malexthekid (Jul 11, 2016)

jaybett said:


> Obviously its a bad situation, when a maker is unable to meet his obligations. Which is only made worse when the maker stops talking with his customers. How do posts demanding refunds help, when its apparent the maker is in trouble? How do posts from people speculating on the nature of the problem help?
> 
> Jay



This!!!

From my understanding most of the post which were deleted were personal comments about pierre which were based on a couple of instagram posts and some massive assumptions.


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## daveb (Jul 11, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> This!!!
> 
> From my understanding all of the post which were deleted were personal comments about pierre which were based on a couple of instagram posts and some massive assumptions.



Fixed that for you..


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## Don Nguyen (Jul 11, 2016)

I will never, ever take a deposit. I get nervous if people even send me materials to work with.

Stuff happens. I learned that while in school, building cars, and making knives/whatever. It's extremely easy to overshoot deadlines.


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## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

Oh... Hooray! More deleted comments...


----------



## Ruso (Jul 11, 2016)

Deleted comments are much better than silently modified ones.


----------



## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

Ruso said:


> Deleted comments are much better than silently modified ones.



Is it forum etiquette to announce it when one edits his post to correct spelling mistakes?


----------



## Ruso (Jul 11, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> Is it forum etiquette to announce it when one edits his post to correct spelling mistakes?


I meant the ones that are modified by the mods/admins without letting people know abt it.


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## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

Ruso said:


> I meant the ones that are modified by the mods/admins without letting people know abt it.



Oh... Yeah, didn't even that was a thing.

I would agree


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## SousVideLoca (Jul 11, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> Oh... Yeah, didn't even that was a thing.


Lol. Welcome to KKF.


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## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

SousVideLoca said:


> Lol. Welcome to KKF.



And I thought Eastern Germany ca 1981 was bad LOL


----------



## spoiledbroth (Jul 11, 2016)

Let's all go do something productive with the remainder of the day...


----------



## Godslayer (Jul 11, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Let's all go do something productive with the remainder of the day...



Pokemon go? Caught a pidgeot yesterday at work.


----------



## daveb (Jul 11, 2016)

Memories.



alterwisser said:


> If you have read some of the recent posts about the Pierre Rodrigue fallout, you know that I was very outspoken about the topic. It looks like I offended some people with my comments (some of them have been deleted), which I want to apologize for. I did not intend to do that, but I do have to admit that I am outspoken and emotional about topics that I feel passionate about. I am always joking that my wife (Spanish/Catalan) and myself (German) are not living up to our stereotypes, with her being level-headed, rational and analytic ... and me being an emotional, hot-headed trainwreck.
> 
> Anyhow. I wanted to follow up on the discussions with a quick point of view on customer makers and their business procedures. The way I see it, not anyone else. Please feel free to agree or disagree, and if you're a maker, I would love to get your take on it as well. This is not about Pierre Rodrigue.....


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## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

daveb said:


> Memories.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## brainsausage (Jul 11, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> daveb said:
> 
> 
> > Memories.
> ...


----------



## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> alterwisser said:
> 
> 
> > You know- there's all kinds of other forums out there to hang out on. If you're not happy with how this one is being run, you don't have to take part in it.
> ...


----------



## WildBoar (Jul 11, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> brainsausage said:
> 
> 
> > Do you leave your wife just because you don't agree with one thing she does or doesn't do?
> ...


----------



## brainsausage (Jul 11, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> brainsausage said:
> 
> 
> > Do you leave your wife just because you don't agree with one thing she does or doesn't do?
> ...


----------



## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> alterwisser said:
> 
> 
> > I do. Every Monday-Friday, in the morning. But I usually give myself some time to get over it, and return home in the early evening. But she makes me turn over a large amount of $$$ every 2 weeks to gain reentry into the house.
> ...


----------



## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> alterwisser said:
> 
> 
> > No, but I wouldn't complain to all of my friends about it either.
> ...


----------



## WildBoar (Jul 11, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> WildBoar said:
> 
> 
> > Does she also threaten you to cut off your knife allowance if you fall short on the $$$ amount?
> ...


----------



## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

WildBoar said:


> alterwisser said:
> 
> 
> > No. It's not the knife allowance she threatens to cut off...
> ...


----------



## WildBoar (Jul 11, 2016)

Back on topic... FWIW, so far I have not seen any indication that the 'fallout' from this is going to result in changes from any of the makers. Most makers have standard policies, and the main reason anyone would likely change from asking a lot up front to being okay with a lesser amount would be because their order backlog started to get far too short.


----------



## havox07 (Jul 11, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> alterwisser said:
> 
> 
> > You know- there's all kinds of other forums out there to hang out on. If you're not happy with how this one is being run, you don't have to take part in it.
> ...


----------



## malexthekid (Jul 11, 2016)

As a person who was moderated in this thread... the posts deleted were off topic and not productive to this discussion.

I have no qualms with this. The mods do a great job here without much thanks.


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## brainsausage (Jul 11, 2016)

havox07 said:


> brainsausage said:
> 
> 
> > Yet why are posts being deleted. Like has been previously said, this is one of the few knife forums out there, and if the moderators are just going to sweep issues under the rug by deleting comments there is a problem. Sure you can argue this is a private forum all you want but the moderators and admins have some duty to their members if a seller advertised on their site is having issues ignoring customers and not fulfilling orders. Kind of sad to see senior members such as your self being unwelcoming to other members just because they point out flaws in the moderation of the forum.
> ...


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## brainsausage (Jul 11, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> As a person who was moderated in this thread... the posts deleted were off topic and not productive to this discussion.
> 
> I have no qualms with this. The mods do a great job here without much thanks.



Agreed.


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 11, 2016)

What's going on with the quotes on this page?! :curse:


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## aboynamedsuita (Jul 11, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> What's going on with the quotes on this page?! :curse:



Not using the additional parsing tag to close?


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## malexthekid (Jul 11, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Not using the additional parsing tag to close?



I was going with the mods playing practical jokes....


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## brainsausage (Jul 11, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Not using the additional parsing tag to close?



I've just been replying the whole time. Something is definitely wonky.


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## daveb (Jul 11, 2016)

Parsing. Is that done with parsley or parsnips? Hate parsnips.


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## malexthekid (Jul 11, 2016)

daveb said:


> Parsing. Is that done with parsley or parsnips? Hate parsnips.



Even thinly shaved fried parsnip?


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## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

What I don't get:

- when I commented in the PR subforum I was basically told to take it somewhere else and that I shouldn't comment because I have no skin in the game. So I started this thread.

- if I'd be posting stuff like "he's the biggest crook on earth, he defrauded his customers, he's a jerk"... Etc. ... Those posts should be deleted!

- my most recent comments were referring to previous posts in this forum. Previous posts that have not been deleted. I was merely reminding people of what had been stated in those.

I would really be interested in learning why those are being deleted. But I guess this post will also be deleted...


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 11, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> What I don't get:
> 
> - when I commented in the PR subforum I was basically told to take it somewhere else and that I shouldn't comment because I have no skin in the game. So I started this thread.
> 
> ...



The issue is when things are made personal.

I'm not sure about the US, but in some places, it could be considered libel to allow unsubstantiated comments against specific individuals and the forum owners could be legally liable if charges were brought. I have heard of this happening before on other forums.

The important part is that the forum is here to discuss, not flame and not slander; if you keep it general or keep it purely factual then there should be no reason for moderation. With the facts laid out, people can make their own decisions on things, it's not helpful for people to be compiling the information as they see it and then adding spin (intentionally or otherwise) and the mods have an obligation to keep things clean.

I have had my comments deleted in the past, and it did irritate me at the time, but I can see why it was in everyone's best interests for them to be cleaned up as the ones in question (of mine) didn't add anything new of value and were focussed on individuals (which is never good).


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## toddnmd (Jul 11, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> alterwisser said:
> 
> 
> > You know- there's all kinds of other forums out there to hang out on. If you're not happy with how this one is being run, you don't have to take part in it.
> ...


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## alterwisser (Jul 11, 2016)

toddnmd said:


> brainsausage said:
> 
> 
> > The topic of a significant group of people being out who knows how many thousands of dollars, possibly tens of thousands, is quite significant. Particularly a situation that has been an issue for years, from one of the site's supporting vendors.
> ...


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## jessf (Jul 11, 2016)

Even the anonymity of the internet does not afford one the luxury of having their thoughts unchallenged. I spent the night making mokume gane, then I read this. Jebus, I need a hobby.


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 11, 2016)

tjangula said:


> Not using the additional parsing tag to close?



I see what'a happening, the closing tag was missed on a post by someone and then the unmatched opening tag has been floating there and passed on in each subsequent post which has included a quote of any of the others.

I was more confused as to if people were doing it on purpose as it's pretty easy to see and fix when authoring a post.


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## malexthekid (Jul 11, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I see what'a happening, the closing tag was missed on a post by someone and then the unmatched opening tag has been floating there and passed on in each subsequent post which has included a quote of any of the others.
> 
> I was more confused as to if people were doing it on purpose as it's pretty easy to see and fix when authoring a post.



For those tech savy people


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## SousVideLoca (Jul 12, 2016)

MAS4T0 said:


> I see what'a happening, the closing tag was missed on a post by someone and then the unmatched opening tag has been floating there and passed on in each subsequent post which has included a quote of any of the others.
> 
> I was more confused as to if people were doing it on purpose as it's pretty easy to see and fix when authoring a post.


As I said earlier, welcome to KKF! 

I've been trolling, moderating, and administrating BBSs since the early 90s. And I love KKF, I really do--it's maybe one of the most endearing little nerdy communities on the 'net, and home to some incredibly generous, forgiving, and trusting people--but I haven't seen a clusterjam of internet incompetence this profound since AOL was a thing. Hell, I'm pretty sure daveb still _uses_ AOL. 

It's part of the charm of this place, really. A whole bunch of crotchety old shop monkeys plunking away at their dirty keyboards, trying to use a mode of communication that hasn't changed in over twenty years, and _failing_ at it. :clown:


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## Lizzardborn (Jul 12, 2016)

I personally always write off loans to friends, kickstarters and all kind of pre-orders/deposits as immediate loss. Helps keeping a calm state of mind. Caveas emptor. If I get my money or any goods - the more the better.

I am not saying it is ok to not deliver - but the risk is substantial and a lot of stuff can get ****** up even if there is sincere good faith effort to deliver.


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## daveb (Jul 12, 2016)

I had to switch Jack, can't find the free disks anymore. You got one?


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 12, 2016)

SousVideLoca said:


> As I said earlier, welcome to KKF!
> 
> I've been trolling, moderating, and administrating BBSs since the early 90s. And I love KKF, I really do--it's maybe one of the most endearing little nerdy communities on the 'net, and home to some incredibly generous, forgiving, and trusting people--but I haven't seen a clusterjam of internet incompetence this profound since AOL was a thing. Hell, I'm pretty sure daveb still _uses_ AOL.
> 
> It's part of the charm of this place, really. A whole bunch of crotchety old shop monkeys plunking away at their dirty keyboards, trying to use a mode of communication that hasn't changed in over twenty years, and _failing_ at it. :clown:



With no offense intended, it'd be interesting to see the average age of this place - the tech savviness does seem lower, on average, than some other forums I'm on. That includes bikeforums, where there are a lot of older people as well.


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## zetieum (Jul 12, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> With no offense intended, it'd be interesting to see the average age of this place -


+1


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## alterwisser (Jul 12, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> With no offense intended, it'd be interesting to see the average age of this place - the tech savviness does seem lower, on average, than some other forums I'm on. That includes bikeforums, where there are a lot of older people as well.



There was a thread - I think last year - asking members about their age. I just can't find it, but maybe someone else does?

I'm 29... been for 9 years now [emoji12]


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## DamageInc (Jul 12, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> There was a thread - I think last year - asking members about their age. I just can't find it, but maybe someone else does?
> 
> I'm 29... been for 9 years now [emoji12]



http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/26155-How-old-are-you-guys


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## MAS4T0 (Jul 12, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> With no offense intended, it'd be interesting to see the average age of this place - the tech savviness does seem lower, on average, than some other forums I'm on. That includes bikeforums, where there are a lot of older people as well.



I put up a thread recently asking how old everyone was.

Maybe it's worth having a look through.

*EDIT*

I see that it's anyway been linked to by Damage.


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## BloodrootLS (Jul 12, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> However no deposit puts all the risk on their shoulder. So the happy medium should be where it is.
> 
> As for what a happy medium is, that is the question... partial payment up front... or full payment at the end but you are paying a premium for their risk... Heaps of ways to do it but we really should be looking for that middle ground so the risk is shared.



So I realize I'm late to this party, but I would love to add to the makers' perspectives in the thread and perhaps shed some light on the complexities of waiting lists. David and I have changed in our policies over time. We do extremely custom work- often using customer's heirlooms or hot-stamping their intials into the blade or doing very particular designs that we would not do ourselves and would not feel comfortable selling elsewhere. If the customer doesn't come through on these kinds of orders we simply have to eat it. There is no resale. This is relatively infrequent, but it has happened several times over the last few years. 

Our warranty/policy since the begining is that you get pictures of your knife before payment so that you can approve. Then, if you're unhappy with the knife for any reason during the first few months of use we'll remake it or provide a full refund. 

We have a long wait list- over 3.5 years currently and continuing to grow. We space orders a customer every 2-3 days (we are two makers and are therefore pretty productive, despite every piece being one-off). Until the list reached 2 years+ we held all the risk and did not require a deposit of any form. We had between 1-4 hours of conversation time via email, in person, and/or phone with each customer. After 2 years our atrition rate began to grow significantly from about 5% to over 20%. The only thing the customers had in it was a conversation, so this was to be expected I suppose. We began taking a $100 deposit and interestingly the number of people contacting us and then following through with an order and getting on the list went UP. Very surprising to us. Apparently by us holding all the risk people didn't feel like we were as committed to them or them to us and they wanted to do/exchange something to get on the list. Statistically speaking people prefer having some skin in the game and are also then higher quality customers who will more likely complete the transaction once the knife is built. 

Deposits are a pain. We have to pay taxes on them but can't technically use the money until the piece is complete because we are legally responsible to provide refunds immediately if anything happens and we are unable to meet our obligations. That means we have thousands of dollars in an escrow account that we can't use but have already been taxed on. This is the way that deposits are supposed to be handled from everything I have heard from similar industries and real businesses. 

All orders are quoted when we have the conversations with the customer, so changes in pricing do NOT affect custom orders that are in line. Even if they change their designs or add a knife the pricing goes along with what it was at the time they made their order. This also means that a price hike does not come into effect on custom knives for over 3.5 years for us currently. This hits us pretty hard. 

We no longer charge a deposit and instead charge a customization fee of $100. Instead of raising our prices on all our knives to deal with some of the problems with the custom order process (massive amounts of conversation time that is often wasted when a customer doesn't follow through, increased risk, fixed pricing over time), we simply add $100 to the custom order process (per order, not per knife) and this "helps" (still doesn't cover it) pay our conversation time and offset the price discount that custom orders get by avoiding price increases over time. That money is not a deposit and is for services rendered (conversation/design time) and therefore does not have to be saved in escrow. We also volunteer to refund the fee if after the design conversation the customer decides not to go ahead with getting a knife. 

The only reason we feel comfortable with a long wait list is that we are two makers in a stable situation. If one of us gets injured the other will continue making knives and that spreads the risk. We are also fully commited to continuing knifemaking for a very long time and have oriented our lives and families around that goal. If we were in a more transient state, like many makers are, we would not feel as comfortable and would have closed our books before now. 

Making available knives (non custom), is more lucrative once you have a good market for them. The custom process is a pain, but it also pushes you as a maker to try things you wouldn't ordinarily do and opens the door to some cool collaborations. 

I hope that this gives you all a little insight into the issues that makers' like us have to think about and deal with. The main takeaway is that in general people seem to like having skin in the game if it's not too much and that the custom order process is complicated and risky for the maker, so try to be understanding, but also make sure that the maker's you're supporting do good business and are thinking about you and what could go wrong on their end. Most of us are not business people and have to figure out how to do business. We're just craftsman after all and don't have staff or extensive resources to help us typically. You have to choose what you're willing to risk to work with people who don't know how to do business well and are figuring it all out. What's nice is that it's one on one communication with small makers and you can get a feel for who they are and if they're trustworthy. Also, ask questions and let them know what you're comfortable with. You may get an agreement with a maker that is not their typical policy if they want to work with you and can trust you. 

Best of luck and thank you all for making it possible for makers like us to build knives for a living. 

~Luke


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## chefcomesback (Jul 12, 2016)

Awesome post Luke , thanks .
Mert


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## gic (Jul 12, 2016)

Yes awesome post Luke


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## skewed (Jul 13, 2016)

Luke- I had a long conversation with a friend who is a high-end custom luthier that was spot on to your post. Thanks for the insight.


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## alterwisser (Jul 13, 2016)

Incredible insight Luke, thanks a lot! Just confirms every positive impression I had from my conversation with you guys. Happy to be on your list....!


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## Matus (Jul 13, 2016)

Thank you Luke for sharing some of the 'behind the scene' with us. I am patiently waiting for my turn


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 13, 2016)

Let me add to the chorus...

I'm on your list and can't wait! And it'll be like three more years; at least by then I should know exactly what I want!


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## Gustavo1977 (Jul 13, 2016)

My 2 cents...
I think every maker should provide these informations on his subforum:
a) How long does he use to take do make a knife;
b) how many knives can he work simultaneously;
Also, he should provide a sheet where I could know:
a) His waiting list (with the date when each order was included);
b) What is the estimate date for him to start each project on that list;
c) That list should be updated with the delivered dates of knives he ended (then I can know how consistence he is with the timeline)
With this, I can really know if I want to be on that waiting list and how much I'm willing to pay in advance.
Sorry about my english...


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## chinacats (Jul 13, 2016)

Gustavo1977 said:


> My 2 cents...
> I think every maker should provide these informations on his subforum:
> a) How long does he use to take do make a knife;
> b) how many knives can he work simultaneously;
> ...



Well said. Don't know how realistic it is but it would make me feel better about giving a deposit up front. 

And please don't apologize, your English is at least as good as mine. Somewhat sad considering English is my primary language.

Cheers


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## alterwisser (Jul 13, 2016)

chinacats said:


> And please don't apologize, your English is at least as good as mine. Somewhat sad considering English is my primary language.
> 
> Cheers



And here I always thought you were Chinese...


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## BloodrootLS (Jul 13, 2016)

Gustavo1977 said:


> My 2 cents...
> I think every maker should provide these informations on his subforum:
> a) How long does he use to take do make a knife;
> b) how many knives can he work simultaneously;
> ...



Great point. And perhaps what would work better for everybody is better transparency. Custom makers have not had to do this (communication is work, and effectively unpaid work at that) and the norms in this "industry" do not require good communication or really even good business. Sometimes I think people are more excited about makers who are harder to deal with since it makes them feel like they're on the "inside" of the curve. Maybe that's true but you as customers have not required good communication, just good product. It would be great if as an industry communication could be better to avoid some of the issues that this thread has talked about. I bet makers would have a lot more business if they would be transparent and publish information like you suggested to make people feel more comfortable and able to trust the maker. 

We have exact dates on our list, but many makers don't. We have gotten behind (we moved shops and had to retrofit the shop and renovate a house. We took 3.5 weeks to do so before we got back in production and it took us a YEAR to recover those 3.5 weeks and get back on time) before and it is easy to do and very difficult to get out of once it's happened. It's also very stressful. Now we try to be ahead to give ourselves a buffer in case something comes up like a sickness or injury that puts us behind. We also stack our custom orders slightly less densely than we have in the past so we have less risk of getting behind. The organization that it takes to keep up with a list like this is pretty intense and we've had to invent ways to do it. The reason we have knives for sale that are not custom each month is that it allows us to still make what we need financially with also keeping the buffer on customs so that we don't get behind or if we do we can catch up faster. If we only did customs we would stop doing customs altogether. It's too stressful and risky to betray customer trust and be able to meet our obligations. 

Actually posting dates and that specific of information like you listed in your post would be too time comsuming and difficult, but some indication of how late or early the customs have been in the recent past (i.e. trackrecord) would probably be very possible. Also, makers who don't have specific times promised or associated with their lists puts much of the risk on you. You have to decide if you are still willing to work with makers who can't give straight answers to the questions you asked, since many won't be able to given the structure or lack thereof of their list. Not everyone keeps a well organized list and it is a lot of work to do so. 

We contact you a month or so before we start work on your piece. That way we check to make sure you're still interested, let you know it's coming, and can tell you whether your order will be ready a little early or late. Communication is the key here since even if we are late we can at least let you know why and what we are doing about it and that we acknowledge that we require some grace from you and if you're unwilling to give it then you get your deposit or fee back. 

All this communication is a lot of time not making knives though, which is why this communication is often lacking from many makers, especially those doing the work by themselves without the help of a partner or assistant or other resources. 

~Luke


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## chinacats (Jul 13, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> And here I always thought you were Chinese...



No, the name is from a Dead tune



BloodrootLS said:


> All this communication is a lot of time not making knives though, which is why this communication is often lacking from many makers, especially those doing the work by themselves without the help of a partner or assistant or other resources.
> 
> ~Luke



I agree with everything you said up until the last bit...and don't necessarily disagree but want to point out that I've heard this many times from makers. The problem is that your business is not unique in this regard. Most business owners don't enjoy the time they spend scheduling, bookkeeping, etc but it certainly is part of the 'job' of running your own business and for this part I cannot have any sympathy.

Cheers


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## alterwisser (Jul 13, 2016)

BloodrootLS said:


> .
> 
> 
> All this communication is a lot of time not making knives though, which is why this communication is often lacking from many makers, especially those doing the work by themselves without the help of a partner or assistant or other resources.
> ...



If your knives are as top notch as your communication .... holy sh**!


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## Anton (Jul 13, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> If your knives are as top notch as your communication .... holy sh**!



They are. And I've gotten mine within a day or two of the promised date months back. Seriously impressed


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 13, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> If your knives are as top notch as your communication .... holy sh**!



If I weren't already on the list for a heritage set from them, I'd have bought (or tried to) one from their monthly orders. Has anyone ever had a complaint about a Bloodroot knife?

I just really want realistic timelines, so I know when I'll be spending money and when I'll have a new toy. If it's late, it's late, but I don't wan to buy one expensive knife and then the next week have a custom maker tell me he's finished mine and have to buy another right away.


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## malexthekid (Jul 13, 2016)

chinacats said:


> No, the name is from a Dead tune
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is a lot easier said than done. And while I don't necessarily disagree, I would say that you have to pay for good communication.

In this business I would argue a lot of makers aren't paying themselves a fair wage for their work let alone enough to cover admin. And while you say "its part of the job", working for free isn't part of the job.

So the question is would you be happy to pay 30-50% extra on your knives for that?

To put it in perspective, as an engineer my company charged me out at $180/hr.... at that charge out rate that afforded me 8 hrs per week of non-billable (or non-shop time in equivalent) hours, any more and profit started to drop...


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## malexthekid (Jul 13, 2016)

I should add that my comments are generalisations based on observations from the forums.

It seems the guys from Bloodroots and a couple of others have spent the time to work out a business model that works.

I would be interested to know if you guys pay yourself a wage or just work for profits? (No need to divulge as its business info, just a curious musing).


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## Dan P. (Jul 13, 2016)

Many thanks to Bloodroot, it made most edifying reading.



chinacats said:


> I agree with everything you said up until the last bit...and don't necessarily disagree but want to point out that I've heard this many times from makers. The problem is that your business is not unique in this regard. Most business owners don't enjoy the time they spend scheduling, bookkeeping, etc but it certainly is part of the 'job' of running your own business and for this part I cannot have any sympathy.
> 
> Cheers



The business is not unique in this respect, no, but the degree to which customer desire vs. maker's vision vs. reality vs. cost vs. materials etc. etc. needs to be pounded out in communications and put on paper for even the most basic customization is surely unusual.
On the other hand, being a knifemaker, or blacksmith, candlestick maker or whatever is also a lifestyle as much as a job, and that has its upsides but it also needs to be paid for on some level.


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## rick_english (Jul 13, 2016)

BloodrootLS said:


> .......We took 3.5 weeks to do so before we got back in production and it took us a YEAR to recover those 3.5 weeks and get back on time) before and it is easy to do and very difficult to get out of once it's happened.............
> ~Luke



The point is you worked until you got back down to zero lag. I know a couple of medical groups where the docs worked evenings and weekends for a year to get their appointment wait time down from 3 months to one day. It stayed that way too----people stopped making appointments months in advance just to hold a slot open, since they knew they could get in the next day.

I'll get flamed to oblivion for this, but I think many knifemakers are just too lazy to do the really hard work that's required to get to the point where they can keep their promises and finish their work on time. It's just easier to make excuses than to make knives.


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## toddnmd (Jul 13, 2016)

It's very helpful to have comments from some makers (thanks Luke and Dan!), to getter a more complete picture of this process. I was hoping there would be some more input to get a glimpse of how it looks from the other side of the transaction.
Some time for communication and design needs to be built in, and should be considered part of the process. Though I would guess there is a pretty big range in how much communication time is required for each knife. Probably some buyers just go with basic dimensions, handle materials, etc., while I'd guess others have some very specific requests, which sometimes may approach or exceed a maker's experience, or what the steel can do. 
While I think Gustavo's list of ways to keep people informed would become a time-sinking burden on makers, the basics of giving a reasonable estimate, and updates if necessary, particularly if the delivery date needs to slip.
It would be very interesting to compile some data about how successful different makers are in meeting expected delivery dates. Luke made an excellent point about buyers not necessarily requiring the type of communication that we seek. I am hoping this thread can contribute toward setting some more widely accepted standards in custom knife making. 
Thanks to Bloodroot for really thinking things through, coming up with a way to manage the process, and sharing their experiences here.


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## chefcomesback (Jul 13, 2016)

rick_english said:


> The point is you worked until you got back down to zero lag. I know a couple of medical groups where the docs worked evenings and weekends for a year to get their appointment wait time down from 3 months to one day. It stayed that way too----people stopped making appointments months in advance just to hold a slot open, since they knew they could get in the next day.
> 
> I'll get flamed to oblivion for this, but I think many knifemakers are just too lazy to do the really hard work that's required to get to the point where they can keep their promises and finish their work on time. It's just easier to make excuses than to make knives.



You will not get flamed to oblivion since no custom maker will openly criticise or ridicule this statement , mostly due to the fact they may loose a potential customer or being seen as rude , bad customer service etc .
On a side note have you ever made a knife ?


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## brainsausage (Jul 13, 2016)

rick_english said:


> The point is you worked until you got back down to zero lag. I know a couple of medical groups where the docs worked evenings and weekends for a year to get their appointment wait time down from 3 months to one day. It stayed that way too----people stopped making appointments months in advance just to hold a slot open, since they knew they could get in the next day.
> 
> I'll get flamed to oblivion for this, but I think many knifemakers are just too lazy to do the really hard work that's required to get to the point where they can keep their promises and finish their work on time. It's just easier to make excuses than to make knives.



That's a pretty ridiculous blanket statement to make.


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## alterwisser (Jul 13, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> You will not get flamed to oblivion since no custom maker will openly criticise or ridicule this statement , mostly due to the fact they may loose a potential customer or being seen as rude , bad customer service etc .
> On a side note have you ever made a knife ?



I made a crappy petty, stock removal... And it took me a very long time, especially getting to 800 grit finish on the blade.

You guys have my utmost respect


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## BloodrootLS (Jul 13, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> It is a lot easier said than done. And while I don't necessarily disagree, I would say that you have to pay for good communication.
> 
> In this business I would argue a lot of makers aren't paying themselves a fair wage for their work let alone enough to cover admin. And while you say "its part of the job", working for free isn't part of the job.
> 
> ...



I have heard that it is hard to push past 30 hours of billable time per week for consultant jobs and many other kinds of jobs that have strong demarkation between billable hours and non billable hours and it seems to hold true. We changed our process from doing some administration every day to having one day a week essentially entirely dedicated to "unbillable" work (and still do emails most every day for an hour or so). Making this change, and moving to 5 days/wk of work instead of 6 days like we had been doing for years increased our productivity by 20%. It's easy as a small business owner to be working always and yet be very inefficient. Structuring work hours can drastically increase efficiency, as can lots of other things. 

Granted we are able to develop and conduct our business like we do because we are a partnership and can share the load. We also this past year hired Katy (David's wife) to do a lot of the administration for us which increased our productivity and organization to a huge degree. The more time we as makers get in the shop- the more billable hours, the more knives get made and more revenue we make. We still do all of the designing with the customers however. 

We do pay ourselves a salary. 

I think you are right Chinacats that knifemakers should not necessarily be "let off the hook" for neglecting their business to maximize profit. They are not likely to change unless they have a reason to however and like I said these issues are here in part because they have not been required to by purchasers. You vote with your dollars. 

I don't think 30-50% extra for additional service is likely. Knives do not have to take weeks to make and prices do not have to be what they are. If a knifemaker gets their pricing up high enough they can be as inefficient as they want. In an industry where overheads are very low (think of the margins a restaurant has to deal with!) and prices are very high and everything you're paying for essentially is time (and desireability), differences in efficiency could make almost any knifemaker able to pay their bills and there's a lot of leeway in how you can increase time in the shop or efficiency while you're there. And I'm saying this from a perspective of every piece being hand forged and very customized- all one-off and we collect and curate a huge array of materials. We are not mid-tech or equipment rich by any stretch of the imagination. Dan I love what you said about how we need to pay for our lucky-dog part of the job by also taking care of the nonbillable stuff and I think you're right on and I have to preach this to myself. We as makers have it really good in that we often get to do what we love and get to do it how and when we want for the most part and can choose how we want to balance time vs. money. It's a great life in many ways if you can handle that much freedom but it's a huge learning curve for most of us to figure out how to deal with freedom in time, the craft, and business to that degree. 

David wanted me to mention that the function of the forum should be to report the business practices of the maker in addition to the quality of the knives. Obviously you already do this, but his point was specifically toward maker punctuality. The maker should not be the one reporting if they've been on time or not since we can make up whatever we want, but that it should be your job as the customers to report wait list issues or deposit issues in the forum or as a part of knife reviews. You can really help prospective buyers know what to expect and the level of risk they are taking on by enlisting the services of different makers. 

Best of luck and since I'm beginning to degenerate into rants instead of provide helpful insight I think I'll sign off ;-)

~Luke


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## malexthekid (Jul 13, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> That's a pretty ridiculous blanket statement to make.



Would love to see a proper indepth analysis. Did they increase staff, were there other doctors in their area that ended up picking up some of that overlap as people weren't prepared to wait etc.

That is an effective incresse of 25% in working hours.


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## brainsausage (Jul 13, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Would love to see a proper indepth analysis. Did they increase staff, were there other doctors in their area that ended up picking up some of that overlap as people weren't prepared to wait etc.
> 
> That is an effective incresse of 25% in working hours.



I was more referring to the work ethic of these mysterious smiths mentioned in the original post. Your point is also of interest.


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## malexthekid (Jul 13, 2016)

I was sort of getting at the same thing... the inference that the drs were great for doing it but knife makers were lazy... when the actual equation us much more complex....

Plus doesn't address the fundamental issue that to decrease wait time a knife make has to increase production... which there is only 3 options...

Take on staff;

Move to an more automated mass produced process; or

Increase working time.

The last is not efficient and sustainable as any properly run business will tell you.

The first two tend go against what we desire as customers


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## brainsausage (Jul 13, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I was sort of getting at the same thing... the inference that the drs were great for doing it but knife makers were lazy... when the actual equation us much more complex....
> 
> Plus doesn't address the fundamental issue that to decrease wait time a knife make has to increase production... which there is only 3 options...
> 
> ...



Agreed. As stated above, I think you really need to understand your limitations, and not let hype or buzz mislead you into taking on more work than you can reliably produce in an acceptable time frame. Which seems to happen all too often. And- well- I'm not privy to the inside of certain people's brains, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case with the issue that birthed forth this here thread.


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## malexthekid (Jul 14, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> Agreed. As stated above, I think you really need to understand your limitations, and not let hype or buzz mislead you into taking on more work than you can reliably produce in an acceptable time frame. Which seems to happen all too often. And- well- I'm not privy to the inside of certain people's brains, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case with the issue that birthed forth this here thread.



I would take it you are right or close to it.

Its also why, as much as the Bloodroots guys have their sh!t in order, 3 years is a long time and a lot can happen in that time frame... and i struggle to commit to anything beyond a "your name is on my list" style of thing for that length or wait list.


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## toddnmd (Jul 14, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I was sort of getting at the same thing... the inference that the drs were great for doing it but knife makers were lazy... when the actual equation us much more complex....
> 
> Plus doesn't address the fundamental issue that to decrease wait time a knife make has to increase production... which there is only 3 options...
> 
> ...



I would guess there is some increase in efficiency as makers gain experience making certain types of knives. In a way, limiting the degree of customization would make things more efficient. One maker (Watanabe) discourages custom requests, saying that customers should use the standard design of a particular knife before requesting a custom version (though he will make more custom versions for an upcharge).

On the other hand, I think some makers probably enjoy the creative aspect of being pushed to do something new, and that ultimately expands their knowledge, and range of knives they can make, although it may often take longer.


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## malexthekid (Jul 14, 2016)

Sorry it was a simplification... But efficiencies help but they aint gonna get rid of a 3+ month wait list.


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## mc2442 (Jul 14, 2016)

Always good to get insight into the world of the makers we order from. Looking forward to my knives from Bloodroot.....sometime around September 2019, lol. Nice to space out the purchases, as long as I don't double up thing from other wait times of course. I do put in for a knife in their lottery process every now and again, though for the love of something holy I don't need more knives from what I have or have ordered :knife:


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 14, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I would take it you are right or close to it.
> 
> Its also why, as much as the Bloodroots guys have their sh!t in order, 3 years is a long time and a lot can happen in that time frame... and i struggle to commit to anything beyond a "your name is on my list" style of thing for that length or wait list.



It is a long time, and I had trouble doing it myself... but their work was so beautiful, and I liked the idea so much, that I got on. It's only $100 (small potatoes in this world) and it gave me three years to figure out exactly what I wanted them to make - for now it's a small set of 90mm petty, 150mm petty, 180mm santoku, and 240mm gyuto, but it may change by then, and by the time I'm sending them a very large PayPal there shouldn't be much risk that I don't like the knives. Their work I have 100% faith in; my own knowledge of what I want is the tripping point there. Hopefully by then I can fund the purchase by putting a bunch of my other knives on BST here.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 14, 2016)

mc2442 said:


> Always good to get insight into the world of the makers we order from. Looking forward to my knives from Bloodroot.....sometime around September 2019, lol. Nice to space out the purchases, as long as I don't double up thing from other wait times of course. I do put in for a knife in their lottery process every now and again, though for the love of something holy I don't need more knives from what I have or have ordered :knife:



Ha - I go and drool over their work for every sale, but keep coming back to the fact that I want something from them that's personally meaningful, and something from a monthly sale wouldn't be.

Oh and hey, @BloodrootLS, can you confirm my guess that custom orders are priced the same as the monthly sale pieces at that time? So for example, if a monthly 240mm gyuto goes for $700, that same knife as part of a custom order (that month) would also go for $700? Just to help me keep in mind what the price will be; obviously I'm assuming prices will go up over the course of the next three years, but at least I could monitor where they are as that time gets closer.


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## BloodrootLS (Jul 15, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> Ha - I go and drool over their work for every sale, but keep coming back to the fact that I want something from them that's personally meaningful, and something from a monthly sale wouldn't be.
> 
> Oh and hey, @BloodrootLS, can you confirm my guess that custom orders are priced the same as the monthly sale pieces at that time? So for example, if a monthly 240mm gyuto goes for $700, that same knife as part of a custom order (that month) would also go for $700? Just to help me keep in mind what the price will be; obviously I'm assuming prices will go up over the course of the next three years, but at least I could monitor where they are as that time gets closer.



Yes you're right. The sale prices are the same as the customs that are being put on the books at the same time. If we raise prices it happens immediately for the sale knives and for customers who are just contacting us to start discussing custom pieces, but the new pricing is not realized for us on the custom knives until the lag of however long the waiting list is at that point. We also, for transparency, put our pricing on each picture in our galleries on our website and keep those up to date so that customers can have a very good idea of what a similar custom knife would cost them. 

Thank you all for your kind words as well and I hope that we can live up to your expectations and repay you for your patience. 

~Luke


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## heldentenor (Jul 15, 2016)

Just want to say that I've been waiting for this thread or its equivalent for a long time. The push and pull craft/artisan vs. business mentalities among people selling their talent (knifemakers, obviously, but also people like tailors) is fascinating. Thanks to everyone and in particular to Luke of Bloodroot for the insights.


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