# Beyond Aizu



## K813zra (Feb 1, 2017)

So my birthday is coming up and my wife told me to search out a stone that I would like as a gift. Having had time to test out my Aizu, quite a bit, I find that I like it well enough for many knives but there are some that I want to take about half a step finer. While I am starting to understand what I want in a stone I am still a little confused about what parameters to set and what questions to ask a vendor. The basics are that I know I want something that feels softer in use, even if it is not as soft as it feels (some stones seem to feel softer or harder than they actually are) and something that is fairly quick for a natural. But I feel I need to figure some things out before I can refine my search.

For example: I got both my Ikarashi and Aizu from Watanabe and while both of these stones where said to be in the 4-5/10 range the Aizu feels much, much harder and denser than the Ikarashi. It is nowhere near as thirsty either. As such that makes it hard for me to say, "okay this is a 6/10 so it MUST feel softer than a 7/10" I do not think that is the correct line of thinking. On top of that it seems that Mr Watanabe does not use the same scale for all stones, or at least he does not label them the same. For example: Sometimes he will say that a stone is medium hard, a little bit hard, hard or extra hard. Other times he will say it is 6/10, 7/10 or 8/10. Yet other times he will use a number such as HS50, HS60 or HS70. How does one sort through these numbers to come to a conclusion? 

Another issue is when looking at other vendors, they do not use the same system. At aframes a similar scale seems to be used, x/10 but his numbers seem to almost always been in the 8-9 range for finishers. Typically 8.2-8.6. JNS uses Lv1-5. Does anyone have stones from all of these vendors and can give a generalization as to how they correspond? IE a 6/10 is similar to a Lv3 or something like that? Or is it just going to be a shot in the dark? 

So after our conversations in other threads I have come to the conclusion that I am likely going to be researching stones such as Takashima, Hideriyama or Ohira (one flavor or another). Hakka is out there too but seems a bit muddier than I would like and also seems to be a mythical creature that weighs much more than my wallet ever will. Looking at numbers from vendors it seems that Ohira produces a lot of stones in similar hardness to Hideriyama but which is likely to be softer or harder seems to depend on which vendor you look at. Yes, I know that each stone from a mine differs and I am working off of generalizations. However, it does seem that while there are exceptions that some mines are known for producing more consistent stones than others. Ohira for example seems to get praise almost exclusively whereas Hideriyama gets a ton of mixed reviews.

Speaking of which, is there a specific issue with Hideriyama? At first my reading seem to indicate that Hideriyama produced fairly decent stones but if you go back further in the archives there are a handful of people who seem to hate these stones with a passion, going as far as to say that they are simply trash. Others seem to think they are good for cosmetic finishing on wider bevels and yet others say they work well on narrow bevels...

The point is, the more I read the more confused I become. When it came to mid grit stones there was a general consensus to go for two stones, Ikarashi and Aizu with very few opinions in opposition. It seems that the same can not be said about finishing stones, with the exception of a few limited stones that everyone seems to praise but these seem to be harder and finer than what I might like. Yes, I realize that in the end I will just have to bite the bullet and order something and experience it for myself. From there deciding which way to go next. Sure, there may be lateral moves here and there in respect to edge quality but I think how the stone matches your style and preference may be more important than if very slightly finer or coarser than another stone. 

Anyway, I know I get long in the tooth, I am not the most organized and I have asked similar questions a lot since coming here but I was hoping to gain some direction here. I have read a lot of threads here and still have not come much closer to figuring out what to do. I read a lot, to the point that google makes me prove that I am not a robot every time I move to the next page of results.:lol2: And while I know that many aspects are subjective I was wishing for people to share their experiences with me about some of their favorite and least favorite finishers and why they classify them as such. As well as clearing up some of my misunderstandings.

TL;DR: I am looking for a softer less dense finishing stone to follow Aizu. Nothing overly fine, maybe somewhere in the 5-7k range when compared to synthetics. I don't want to sell my kidney either...:eyebrow:

Sorry for rambling on and thank you in advance if you can aid me in any way.


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## foody518 (Feb 1, 2017)

Don't forget about Oouchi either! 
And maybe a bench stone size Uchigumori actually fits here


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## K813zra (Feb 1, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Don't forget about Oouchi either!
> And maybe a bench stone size Uchigumori actually fits here



Yeah, I don't see much about Oouchi and these are fairly inexpensive. I have not seen a single write-up or video but it would sting the wallet much less than taking a chance on others, lol. 

I get confused with Uchigumori stones. Different types and hardness, huge difference in appearance from one stone to another. Etc. I have seen some described as slow, others as fast, others as muddy etc. My head is spinning.

Actually that is how I feel in general. That goes away when I order a new stone as I am to busy playing to think about it. However, I am indecisive and like to over complicate things so there are times where I need smacked in the back of the head. Another thing is mindset, I think I am getting out of it but part of my mindset is still to compare to the things I know, such as synthetics stones and that simply does not seem to work. It is not that easy to change your way of think in a short period of time, at least not for me. But I guess I will get there with time.


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## Krassi (Feb 1, 2017)

First of all .. your wife deserves an Oscar for this! 

Ok with "Ohiras are like this" its a little misunderstanding because it is just a brand name for the mine!
So its like you say "ok i got a mercedes"... well an S-class? a SUV? or a box like Sprinter... 
Since the mine Owners dig a tunnel in thee mountain they get stones from different layers of the mountain. 

So you have soft stuff like Uchigumori, Awesedo super fine finishers, Suitas, Aisa.blablabal.. but its all from the Ohira mine and has the Ohira stamp on it!
There are also hard type Hakkas too! so the Mine name is just a brand.

All this Hardness Stuff is ok but once you use a Diamond plate or a nagura some stones completely change no matter how hard they are on paper.


If you would go for a Suita i would go for a Kitayama or JNS6000 to polish the blade good enough for the Suita.. it does not have to be from Ohira.. a excellent Nakayama, Okudo or whatever Suita will blow any moderate or not so awesome Ohira away.. its usually depending on the unique stone and some types have characteristic features.


Well one very easy to use polisher would also be an Aiiwatani! They feel softer than most Suitas , are easy to use. Fire and forget stones.. i prefer Suitas.
Then as mentioned a good Uchigumori would be pure fun for polishing .. but its usually not the Stone you are looking for just for sharpening.

Also my Aizu is much harder and finer than my Ikarashis

well not easy question!


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## erezj (Feb 1, 2017)

K813zra, thank you so much for your post, I feel so much better knowing there is someone out there as confused as I am.

Had the exact same situation a month ago, got really lucky, emphasize on lucky, decided to gamble at 'buyee' the Japanese auction site, got a 750g Ohira aka renge for 50$ and hit the jackpot, perfect after my Aoto.

Since there was very little info about the stone, and not sure I can trust the info that was shared I can't really give objective data about the true nature of the stone, but it has the exact character you mentioned, and I love it!

My guess is that the stone is a Uchihumori Ohira Aka Renge, I would classify it as 5.5/10, today I looked at Watanabe's site and realized he actually has quite a lot of these for reasonable price, worth checking it out with him.

Anyway, just a word of caution, I am a novice when it comes to Jnats, please double check if what I wrote makes sense with a master, such as Watanabe.

Good luck mate


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## foody518 (Feb 1, 2017)

Jon's description of Oouchi is pretty spot on to how mine acts.
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...-natural-stones/products/oouchi-large-no-base
Wish I could say firsthand how it compares to Hideriyama or Takashima awasedo, but in case they'd be too redundant, I just have the Oouchi for now. It's a little thirstier and more porous than what I had thought it would be like as a knife friendly finishing stone coming from harder synthetic fine stones like the Sigma 6k and Naniwa Fuji 8k. Cutting action is good, polishing capability is pretty nice too. Has that softer smoother vs dense glassy feel.
His stock of Oouchi and Hideriyama are priced the same
Also, I have a really dense but somehow thirsty Aizu... See how hard it is to try and relate with natural stones? XD


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## Krassi (Feb 1, 2017)

hahah well i am still confused after 1,5 Years of jnat research  

With good clean Ohira Suitas its often a good chance that they are "business as usual" 
Good Uchigumori from Watanabe is also a good choice..

Best thing: Simply ask watanabe what he would advice and how much cash you would spend.. this is the best with a stoneseller because other stuff is gambling (well i am the grandmaster of gambling with stones, but its not adviceable!!!)
Zetieum for example asked him for a stone and his advice seemed a boring stone first.. but it is a killer ohira awesedo that was exactly how intended.

finding a "not to hard stone" is hard just from the photos.. usually "red stones" are super muddy and the softest, "orange" are softer type, "blue maruyama stuff" is also softer , and "grey/green" are often on harder fine finishers.. "white" is often from shiro suitas and moderate hard and killer fast.... aaaand so on 

best regards, daniel


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## K813zra (Feb 1, 2017)

Thanks all. 

Starting with the Ohira comparison, I do understand that it is just a mine and that stones come from different layers and stones even within the same layer will differ. For example: Looking at Tomae I see that they come in a range of color and while some say things like Iromono and Kiita do not relate to hardness, as far as I can tell these stones do almost always get listed as being softer than Asagi. Not always, but a lot of the time. Again, a generalization, I know. At the same time, every example of Ohira Asagi I find is listed softer than Nakyama Asagi, as another example. Moving on I realize that there are also suita, which seem to come from two different layers as well? Or a different seam in the same layer? 

Regardless, from what I read and I could be wrong it does seem that while stones from the same mine and the same layer can differ it is not like comparing say an Atoma 140 with a Shapton glass 30000. More like comparing a chosera to a shapton and while they are different they are similar at the same time. Again, this is just my understanding. 

That said, I want to follow a natural, not a synthetic. For me, even if not for others, that defeats the purpose and to me that is the experience not the end result. 

I also realize that there are harder Hakka and Takashima out there but they do not seem to be the norm. I am okay generalize to the point of average vs atypical. Just as an idea where to start. As I said before, they are natural and differ, I get that. But it does seem that people who are fluent in Jnats find some stones similar enough to recommend them based on what characteristics that they are likely to provide. 

Back to Uchigumori, it is an interesting topic. I see some say that they are not particularly good for sharpening but are better suited to polishing but I also see people who do not agree with that. Thus the reason I get confused with this particular stone. Mr Watanabe, for example, lists many of them as great for sharpness and for beginners and states that while these stones differ you would have to be a hell of a sharpener to tell the difference. That is obviously paraphrasing. Again, I am lost. The opinions seem to differ wildly. 

Thank you for the information regarding the Oouchi. That helps and does sound like something that I would like. 

As for Aizu, maybe I misspoke. It is not that the stone is not thirsty, it just isn't as thirsty as my Ikarashi. At the same time it is much more thirsty than my Yaginoshima, for example. Even still the Yagi. is more thirsty than my synthetics etc. I don't own a natural that water will just pool on the top and I am not sure I would want to because I think that would be a hell of a hard stone. Even my Shobu Mizu Asagi will not do that and it is leagues harder than my Yaginoshima. 

Color me confused, still, but I think things are getting clearer. 

Thank you!

Edit: I see you posted while I was typing, lol. I do intend to chat with Mr Watanabe but I don't want to go in blind. I wanted to be able to better express what I am looking for and chatting with you fellas seems to help me out tons!


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## Badgertooth (Feb 1, 2017)

K813zra said:


> Back to Uchigumori, it is an interesting topic. I see some say that they are not particularly good for sharpening but are better suited to polishing but I also see people who do not agree with that. Thus the reason I get confused with this particular stone. Mr Watanabe, for example, lists many of them as great for sharpness and for beginners and states that while these stones differ you would have to be a hell of a sharpener to tell the difference. That is obviously paraphrasing. Again, I am lost. The opinions seem to differ wildly.



Uchi is the most wildly varying stone I have tried. I have tried 5 now and each is wildly different from the other. That said 4 of them would offer a lot of what you're looking for. To Watanabe's point, I think he's trying to highlight that certain specimens have very good sharpening qualities in addition to polishing qualities. You could zero in on a good one by asking him. I'll also chuck in my votes for softer Aiiwatani and mizukihara awasedo


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 1, 2017)

Agreed, it is hard to know exactly how hard/soft a stone is with different ways to measure hardness, but usually you have a clue: Takashimas lvl 2.5 from JNS must be softer than those Myokakudani from AFrames that are rated between 8 and 9 in the scale of hardness. When the scales seem to be close, like your example (6/10 at AFrames being equal to Lvl 3 at JNS) it is harder to say. In general, i feel AFrames' stones to be harder than JNS's at similar ratings.

You already have an Ikarashi and an Aizu. A Takashima or a Hakka could be a nice finisher if you are talking about gyuto finishers. I like both Takashima (from JNS, lvl 2.5) and Hakka (from JTool). A harder Aoto could be an option. If you want to go finer, you could get an ohira suita.

Regarding Oouchis, i got one from JNS that feels much harder than those at JKI. This one from JNS is a nice stone, leaves a toothy finish, but zero mud, only a swarf when it is used.


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## TheCaptain (Feb 1, 2017)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Agreed, it is hard to know exactly how hard/soft a stone is with different ways to measure hardness, but usually you have a clue: Takashimas lvl 2.5 from JNS must be softer than those Myokakudani from AFrames that are rated between 8 and 9 in the scale of hardness. When the scales seem to be close, like your example (6/10 at AFrames being equal to Lvl 3 at JNS) it is harder to say. In general, i feel AFrames' stones to be harder than JNS's at similar ratings.
> 
> You already have an Ikarashi and an Aizu. A Takashima or a Hakka could be a nice finisher if you are talking about gyuto finishers. I like both Takashima (from JNS, lvl 2.5) and *Hakka (from JTool*). A harder Aoto could be an option. If you want to go finer, you could get an ohira suita.
> 
> Regarding Oouchis, i got one from JNS that feels much harder than those at JKI. This one from JNS is a nice stone, leaves a toothy finish, but zero mud, only a swarf when it is used.



Ok I have to chime in here with my own confusion. Jtool has a Aoto Hakka listed that looks a hella lot like a Aoto I picked up from Watanabe so I haven't pulled the switch on getting it. Is a Hakka and certain types of Aoto essentially the same?

Cause I have 4 different Aoto, and they all feel very different. Two from Watanabe, and two from forum members here I trust as to their source.

If a Hakka is different from an Aoto I'd love to give one a try myself.

Oh, and +1! for the Aiiwatani. Currently one of my favorite stones to play with.


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## K813zra (Feb 1, 2017)

Seems there are even more stones for me to look at. I see JNS just got in a lot of stones since I last looked but I only see one Aiiwatani. Seems that one of the larger koppa sized stones Lv2.5-3 would be good to try out and with a price that is not intimidating. I will have to keep on the look out. 

The Oouchi stones seem interesting as well and again, not too costly. I guess I might have to try out a few smaller stones to get an idea of what I am looking for. Last I spoke with Jon he said he would be getting in more stones at some point in the not so distant future. 

Maybe I will have to send Watanabe an email too and see if he has any Ohira stones that fit my needs that are smaller and not listed. I mean, my end goal is to try out different stones. 

Thank you again, this does give me an idea what to look for at each vendor regarding how they list their stones. I guess I will have to look at them all as different scenarios rather than trying to compare.


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## tgfencer (Feb 1, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I guess I will have to look at them all as different scenarios rather than trying to compare.



This is a good mindset to have. And enjoy, if you buy from the vendors people have mentioned here and on other threads, you know that at least you will get good quality for your money. Maybe they work out or maybe they aren't to your tastes. Keep them or move them on, then try others. As long as you are prepared to make a mistake or two, you will eventually have a stockpile of stones that you enjoy and work well for what you need/want.

Keep an eye out on member locations too, you never know, maybe there are others in Penn or within a reasonable drive who might let you try some stones out.


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## Bolek (Feb 2, 2017)

K813zra said:


> So my birthday is coming up and my wife told me to search out a stone that I would like as a gift.
> 
> 
> TL;DR: I am looking for a softer less dense finishing stone to follow Aizu. Nothing overly fine, maybe somewhere in the 5-7k range when compared to synthetics. I don't want to sell my kidney either...:eyebrow:
> ...



Soft Nat somewhere in the 5-7k range when compared to synthetics : look for a good Belgian Coticule. And for the price you can also have a BBW.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 3, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Ok I have to chime in here with my own confusion. Jtool has a Aoto Hakka listed that looks a hella lot like a Aoto I picked up from Watanabe so I haven't pulled the switch on getting it. Is a Hakka and certain types of Aoto essentially the same?
> 
> Cause I have 4 different Aoto, and they all feel very different. Two from Watanabe, and two from forum members here I trust as to their source.
> 
> ...



To my knowledge, different stones, although aoto seems to be an even less precise description than others used for jnats. For instance, those red aotos sold at JNS seem to be, according to Maxim, atagoyamas, which are, in my opinion, closer to hakka than those muddy, coarser, Kousaki/Tanba aotos. 

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/red-aoto-a1141/


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## TheCaptain (Feb 3, 2017)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> To my knowledge, different stones, although aoto seems to be an even less precise description than others used for jnats. For instance, those red aotos sold at JNS seem to be, according to Maxim, atagoyamas, which are, in my opinion, closer to hakka than those muddy, coarser, Kousaki/Tanba aotos.
> 
> http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/red-aoto-a1141/



Cool! I actually got one of the three he recently listed delivered yesterday. Looking forward to trying it this weekend.


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## Krassi (Feb 3, 2017)

Well i think its all about the color. red Stuff is in that 5-7k soft polishing range your looking for or a Aiiwatani (well i also got a crazy karasu Aiiwatani but its a harder Type)

i got a very unusual red Narutaki that no one had on the radar and its the "mudprincess"!
i totally dondt know how fine it is.. its actually a fine stone. it actually makes more fun than my uchigumori.

red=mud .. i think it does not matter so much from what mumbo jumbo mine its from unless its red.

http://imgur.com/a/Cg56Y


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## XooMG (Feb 3, 2017)

The confidence of an opinion is often inversely proportional to its merit. Good luck OP.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 4, 2017)

Krassi said:


> Well i think its all about the color.
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/Cg56Y



Watanabe seems to think that red aotos are softer. I'm not sure it is valid always (i'm sure there are other variables as the hardness of the stone etc), although it seems valid generally speaking. As an example, AFrames has two Shoubu Iromonos, both reddish. According to the description, one produces a good amount of slurry, the other doesn't:

http://aframestokyo.com/shobu-iromono-natural-whetstone-5184g--1l5184123.html

http://aframestokyo.com/shobu-iromono-japanese-natural-sharpening-stone-1160g--2116029.html


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## Badgertooth (Feb 4, 2017)

While generalisations don't always hold true. I've found that redder stones, from mines where I have the standard palette of tan through grey, are softer. And I mean this in the context of layered finishers Kyoto and surrounds


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## Krassi (Feb 4, 2017)

+1 @Badger.. red is soft! whatever mine name it has.


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## foody518 (Feb 13, 2017)

https://goo.gl/photos/gPpAmiGgV5w3nGpK6
Used without any previous generation of slurry, it's not really gonna kick up much just polishing an already defined ~ <1mm edge bevel. The black dots and streaks are sharpie :3
Finishes finer than Aizu
Other two stones are those I perceive to be my hardest finest Jnats with ~5-10 minute old water droplets on them... Not soaking in all that fast 
They still do fine as knife finishers


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## K813zra (Feb 13, 2017)

foody518 said:


> https://goo.gl/photos/gPpAmiGgV5w3nGpK6
> Used without any previous generation of slurry, it's not really gonna kick up much just polishing an already defined ~ <1mm edge bevel. The black dots and streaks are sharpie :3
> Finishes finer than Aizu
> Other two stones are those I perceive to be my hardest finest Jnats with ~5-10 minute old water droplets on them... Not soaking in all that fast
> They still do fine as knife finishers



Cool! But I have to say, after reading all of the replies and taking some time to reflect I think I am just going to continue to learn the ins and outs of my Aizu for a bit longer before I move on. Each time I use it, not only do I learn a little bit but I seem to get a better edge. It seems the stone still has more to offer if I can just do my part better. I think I will keep at this for another few months before I revisit the topic. When I do I will go ahead and contact a vendor and explain my needs/wants to them and let them steer me in what they think is the best direction. After that maybe I will have a better idea where to go next.

What I have learned thus far with mid grit stones is that buying up many of them is like a series of lateral moves, for the most part. With some stones acting differently and maybe offering a finished edge that is slightly finer or coarser but not something that is earth shattering, so to speak. Maybe I am wrong but I feel that finishing stones are going to be much the same in the sense that there will be more than a few lateral moves in regards to edge quality. Figuring how I want the stone to act in use is another story.

So thank you all for the advice. I think I need to slow down a bit and take two steps back before I take a step forward.


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## XooMG (Feb 13, 2017)

Difficult but provident.


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## foody518 (Feb 13, 2017)

@K813zra good plan. It does feel like there is a huge variation in 'finishers' but in a way that can be considered somewhat lateral moves until you find the thing that *really* fits exactly what you want from an edge on a given knife (or maybe the sharpening experience). In the medium and the fine range, there's a few that I've gotten so far that have stuck out to me or surprised me with the results I've gotten (relative crispness or toothiness of the edge, ease of use, polish, etc.) but in general I just like playing around :3
Or maybe it's that this stuff is mostly over-the-top for something like gyuto polish


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## K813zra (Feb 13, 2017)

foody518 said:


> @K813zra good plan. It does feel like there is a huge variation in 'finishers' but in a way that can be considered somewhat lateral moves until you find the thing that *really* fits exactly what you want from an edge on a given knife (or maybe the sharpening experience). In the medium and the fine range, there's a few that I've gotten so far that have stuck out to me or surprised me with the results I've gotten (relative crispness or toothiness of the edge, ease of use, polish, etc.) but in general I just like playing around :3
> Or maybe it's that this stuff is mostly over-the-top for something like gyuto polish



I think I follow what you are saying because I have had a similar experience with my mid grit naturals. If I compare my Ikarashi and Tajima the Ikarashi clearly leaves a more crisp edge. I am not so sure that I would say one stone leaves a finer or coarser edge at least not to any important degree. But the edge left is quite different. That could just be me learning to use each stone, though. Inconsistent results or something. 

Your last point stands out to me. From a utility standpoint I could stop at my Ikarashi. That might seem a bit coarse for most but as a home cook it seems to work fine as I have tried it more than a few times. I do prefer the refinement I get from the Aizu, though. I am not sure that going much beyond that is practical but I think at some point it will make for an enjoyable experience anyway. 

One point that I find resonates with me is when you say the sharpening experience. For me that is what it is about, it is fun to use these natural stones. If I were being practical about this I can put an acceptable edge on my knives with synthetics, do so quicker and with less fuss. But it is not the same.


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