# General sharpening questions



## Maylar (May 23, 2014)

The only knives in my kitchen that get sharpened are a couple of inexpensive commercial (WalMart) chef's knives. One is a Santoku stainless and the other is a 9 inch or so KitchenAid. I keep them sharp with a hand held Chef's Choice diamond hone that has both 15 and 20 degree "slots".

I will sooner or later upgrade to a new knife, probably a Japanese blade like a Konosuke gyuto that I would make the handle for (I'm a decent woodworker). Persuing that is why I joined here.

So my question is, is the diamond hone that I'm using OK for a Japanese knife? I'm a home cook not a pro, and knives tend to stay sharp enough for quite a while.

TIA


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## Mrmnms (May 23, 2014)

Diamond hone is too aggressive for a Konosuke. The steel is hard. I would use only decent water stones on that knife. Maybe practice sharpening on your inexpensive knives before moving up to a Japanese gyuto. Good luck.


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## ThEoRy (May 23, 2014)

You have yet to sharpen those knives. Honing just realigns the edge.


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## GodprefersDiesels (May 24, 2014)

It's been said before - abrasion is abrasion. There's plenty of stuff out there shaped like a hone that sharpens. And you can only "realign" an edge so many times before it breaks off and the knife is dull forever until sharpened, correct? So if the knives are sharp, then something is obviously working.

If you don't feel like messing with a waterstone, then try it in your setup on the 15* section. Worst thing that can happen is it doesn't work, and you have to buy stones. Nothing mystical about this stuff. It's just metal.


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## Maylar (May 24, 2014)

The hone seems to work, but these knives never seem to get as sharp as when they were new. As a woodworker, I understand the process of sharpening but have never had much success with knives. Keeping the angle consistent on a stone seems impossible.

I sharpen plane irons, chisels, turning tools, etc all the time. I use natural Arkansas stones with oil, I'm not a fan of water stones at all. I think I'll try the soft Ark on one of these cheap knives and see where that leads.

Thanks for the replies.


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## LKH9 (May 24, 2014)

Use an angle guide, that simple. If you can't get a constant angle, you will dull your knives more instead of sharpening them, and it's a waste of metal and time. Angle is the key to sharpening.

I don't like water stone as well, too messy. I prefer dry honing with silicon carbide and oil stone. Talking about cheap stainless knives here. :knife:

And, new out-of-factory knives are never sharp, I won't use them without putting my new razor edge on. I just can't stand that 'sharpness'.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/18065-Cheap-Sharpening-Angle-Guide

Never attempt to sharpen a decent Japanese knife without any experience, you will just destroy that precious blade. Get a cheap one first for practice.


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## ThEoRy (May 24, 2014)

They don't seem as sharp because it's getting thick behind the edge. You have to thin the bevels out on waterstones.


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## larrybard (May 24, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> Use an angle guide, that simple. . . .



Any particular commercially available honing guide suggested? I assume we're talking only about using one only on non-Japanese knives. I'm about to start learning, using a newly purchased starter set of stones from Dave, as soon as I receive his DVDs (on their way), but would like to try first with some inexpensive carbon knives, and a guide might come in helpful, after using the "sharpie" method for determining appropriate angle, etc. A quick internet search shows inexpensive angle guides made by Bates and Taidea, for example. I've never used one, and am a bit concerned about the bottom of the guide dragging along the stone.


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## daveb (May 24, 2014)

I started with below to get me in the right ballpark. From there I was able to feel where the knife wanted to be sharpened. Holding the angle steady will come in time.

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/K...qf2kyxv_1KvfjaXeqGElG3pqcx_BYFl3EPPTCYn7w_wcB

Gotta note that in my experience as you get started you will dull the knife, scratch the knife, scuff the knife, get wire edges, probably get a birds beak or two. But you will not ruin the knife. It's just creating opportunities for learning:cool2:


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## larrybard (May 24, 2014)

daveb said:


> I started with below to get me in the right ballpark. From there I was able to feel where the knife wanted to be sharpened. Holding the angle steady will come in time.
> 
> http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/K...qf2kyxv_1KvfjaXeqGElG3pqcx_BYFl3EPPTCYn7w_wcB



Thanks. Interesting possibility -- yes, I would only use a guide to get comfortable maintaining a constant angle, and then develop a feel for the sweet spot -- but do I misunderstand the description at the link provided; it seems to only permit angles of 12 or 24 degrees?


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## GodprefersDiesels (May 24, 2014)

Maylar said:


> The hone seems to work, but these knives never seem to get as sharp as when they were new. As a woodworker, I understand the process of sharpening but have never had much success with knives. Keeping the angle consistent on a stone seems impossible.
> 
> I sharpen plane irons, chisels, turning tools, etc all the time. I use natural Arkansas stones with oil, I'm not a fan of water stones at all. I think I'll try the soft Ark on one of these cheap knives and see where that leads.
> 
> Thanks for the replies.



You don't have to use waterstones on them. Remember, "abrasion is abrasion". Absolutely nothing wrong with Arkansas other than they take forever to remove metal. (generally) You can use a hand held belt sander if it pulls your skirt up.

Just don't get it in your head that you have to bust out the waterstones, wear a bathrobe, burn incense, and put on your old copy of Karate Kid to sharpen a knife. IT'S JUST METAL.


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## LKH9 (May 24, 2014)

> Any particular commercially available honing guide suggested? I assume we're talking only about using one only on non-Japanese knives. I'm about to start learning, using a newly purchased starter set of stones from Dave, as soon as I receive his DVDs (on their way), but would like to try first with some inexpensive carbon knives, and a guide might come in helpful, after using the "sharpie" method for determining appropriate angle, etc. A quick internet search shows inexpensive angle guides made by Bates and Taidea, for example. I've never used one, and am a bit concerned about the bottom of the guide dragging along the stone.


http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/Juranitch1977Feb.htm

You can also try those made in japan from ebay, the plastic ones with ceramic on the base.

I've never used these commercial products, but had great success with my homemade ones. The way of using this angle guide is to apply pressure only on the edge, NEVER push hard on the guide part. Doing so will abrade and damage the guide as well as clogging the stone with the guide particles. 

Practice the feel a bit and you will love angle guides. *Pretend like there is nothing attached on the blade spine, that's it!*:knife: It's just an aid to prevent mistakes from your freehand sharpening.

And, when using angle guide, you don't need to drag the whole knife along the whole stone, just using a small portion of the stone will suffice.


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## GodprefersDiesels (May 24, 2014)

It is good to try and be precise, but don't get too caught up in it at first. If you can't hold the blade at the perfect angle, then just pretend you're putting a convex bevel on it. Not kidding.

Stop putting so much effort into it with the hand that's holding the handle, and try to get that hand to just hold the angle. Use your fingers to put the pressure.


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## LKH9 (May 24, 2014)

daveb said:


> I started with below to get me in the right ballpark. From there I was able to feel where the knife wanted to be sharpened. Holding the angle steady will come in time.
> 
> http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/K...qf2kyxv_1KvfjaXeqGElG3pqcx_BYFl3EPPTCYn7w_wcB
> 
> Gotta note that in my experience as you get started you will dull the knife, scratch the knife, scuff the knife, get wire edges, probably get a birds beak or two. But you will not ruin the knife. It's just creating opportunities for learning:cool2:



Do you drag this wedge together with the blade?


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## daveb (May 24, 2014)

Do you drag this wedge together with the blade? 

No. When I used it I would leave it at one end of the stone. It and a magic marker on edge of blade would help establish initial angle. Did not take long to develop feel for how to hold knife for the factory bevel. It's a beginners tool and for less than 10 bucks a useful one for me. It does not come out much anymore.


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## LKH9 (May 24, 2014)

If so, then it shouldn't even cost that much when you can simple fold a piece of square paper, for FREE. I sharpen my cleaver freehand by just using that paper guide, when angle-guide doesn't work on heavy stuff. It's a rip-off.


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## daveb (May 24, 2014)

Free is good if it works for you...


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## Maylar (May 25, 2014)

daveb said:


> I started with below to get me in the right ballpark. From there I was able to feel where the knife wanted to be sharpened. Holding the angle steady will come in time.
> 
> http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/K...qf2kyxv_1KvfjaXeqGElG3pqcx_BYFl3EPPTCYn7w_wcB
> 
> Gotta note that in my experience as you get started you will dull the knife, scratch the knife, scuff the knife, get wire edges, probably get a birds beak or two. But you will not ruin the knife. It's just creating opportunities for learning:cool2:



Thanks for the idea. I have a rolling guide for sharpening my plane irons and bench chisels, and I outgrew it many years ago once I developed the skills to hold the bevel by hand. But the bevel on a plane iron is easy to "feel" when it's in contact with the stone. Knife edges are so small...

Is there a 15* / 20* version of that?


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## LKH9 (May 25, 2014)

[video=youtube;KU8VVtam3ig]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU8VVtam3ig[/video]

Either the paper guide or coin stacks.


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## Bitter (May 25, 2014)

> But the bevel on a plane iron is easy to "feel" when it's in contact with the stone. Knife edges are so small...



Maybe knives with large bevels would be easier for you to sharpen then.

Like this : http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/featured-items/gesshin-kagekiyo-210mm-blue-1-wa-gyuto.html


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## Umberto (May 25, 2014)

Take those knives to a shooting range for target practice. I wouldn't start out with a Konosuke knife. It might be better to purchase a less expensive blue steel or white steel knife in the lower price bracket to practice thinning, and bevel work. From there you can upgrade to the Konosuke after you've got a good feel for sharpening and metal removal. Everybody is personally different in movement, but the object of getting two points to meet is the same for everybody.

Lot's of great knives with ugly handles...

The diamond hones are no good.


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## Lizzardborn (May 30, 2014)

I bought Naniwa flattening plate - grit 120, the 2.5 Kg beast, that I don't use due to my Atoma plate that works wonders with the stones. 
My question is - is there a reason not to use it as a huge grinding stone for rough jobs - will it perform ok as a waterstone or should I just sell it?


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 4, 2014)

Maylar said:


> Thanks for the idea. I have a rolling guide for sharpening my plane irons and bench chisels, and I outgrew it many years ago once I developed the skills to hold the bevel by hand. But the bevel on a plane iron is easy to "feel" when it's in contact with the stone. Knife edges are so small...
> 
> Is there a 15* / 20* version of that?



Trust your freehand bevels.Esp. since you come from a chisel background & outgrew the guide. I have sharpened wood chisels & Ice carving chisels quite a bit. All freehand used Arkansas oil stone & waterstones. For Kitchen knives always used waterstones. They are better for chef knives they clean up well so you are working with a clean stone which is important.

The knives you have are not that easy to sharpen(soft stainless steel). I am sure you know the difference between really cheaply made plane irons & wood chisels compared to the quality stuff. It is the same with kitchen knives.

Don't worry about how small the knife bevel is just check out some good freehand video's. Jon at Japanese Knife Imports has online vids that are good. Dave Martell has a DVD that is excellent for beginning sharpeners with lots of tips.

I teach culinary students most who have never put any steel to a stone before. Starting from scratch. I show them how fast I can take a totally dull knife, sharpen it ,sail it thru paper with little sound. Then I slow down the technique so they can see what is going on. I do one on one correcting their mistakes, the students watching my corrections learn that way as well.

Most are using King 1000 stones they get cheap from Cherry co. here. Most all are able to hold a steady spine with one on one guidance. Many are able to get an even burr heel to tip with one class. Some come back on their own time to hone their skills. 

I would say get a better knife, forget the oilstone, watch some video's. No need guides either. The aim is to get a sharp edge that glides through food. A little freehand mastery does that very well.


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## Maylar (Jun 5, 2014)

keithsaltydog said:


> Trust your freehand bevels.Esp. since you come from a chisel background & outgrew the guide. I have sharpened wood chisels & Ice carving chisels quite a bit. All freehand used Arkansas oil stone & waterstones. For Kitchen knives always used waterstones. They are better for chef knives they clean up well so you are working with a clean stone which is important.
> 
> The knives you have are not that easy to sharpen(soft stainless steel). I am sure you know the difference between really cheaply made plane irons & wood chisels compared to the quality stuff. It is the same with kitchen knives.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that. I have acquired a set of waterstones and a diamond plate, as even the woodworking guys I hang with say that's the most effective way to keep kitchen knives sharp. Keep the oilstones for the carbon steel chisels and plane irons. The cheap stainless knives will probably get treated to a disc sander - as someone here said, "abrasion is abrasion". But I'll practice keeping a freehand angle with them on a stone until I'm comfortable doing that... then get a nice knife.

Thanks for the advice.


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## Lizzardborn (Jul 9, 2014)

Once I read that diamond plates are not good for soft steels - the diamonds get plucked away from the plate? Is that the case too with the Atoma 140 - if I use it on soft steel is it safe for the plate?


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## psfred (Aug 8, 2014)

Maylar:

Let me guess, you'll be using those waterstones on plane irons very shortly. Vastly easier if somewhat messy, and I suspect you will find you can get a better edge faster than Arkansas stone, in particular on things like vanadium steel plane irons. Almost impossible to sharpen well on those stones, steel is too hard.

your cheap knives will be a good way to learn, just remember that you need WAY less pressure -- waterstones will cut very well with an ounce or two of pressure. Press hard and the stone wears incredibly fast with no increase in grinding speed. 

The only drawback to waterstones is the need to flatten all the time, but you have that under control. Worse with plane irons and chisels since they must be dead square, less of an issue with knives.

Lizzardborn:

Soft steel is fine on the Atoma plate. Just don't use much pressure, that is what causes problems. Fracturing the diamonds in coarse grits is more of an issue than actual removal, but neither will happen with light pressure.

Peter


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