# Which gyuto? (Stainless/resistant, ~240mm, more nfo inside)



## Nihilio (Oct 8, 2014)

Let's go for that questionnaire:

Location: Germany, European Union

I am looking for a gyuto or a chef's knife of similar make, meaning thin, french profile, as the title said around 250mm. Not under 230 and not over 265 please. Western Handle (though I like the handle of Global GF)
I'd like it to be stainless or multi-layered (at least some form of corrosion resistance). Sorry, I have almost no idea about these things 

Budget: this is going to be my present to myself. I'd like to spend no more than 165 though, that should be around 200U$D 

I'd use it professionally, I#m looking for something for the finer works here. I have German nives that will take care of any more strenuous tasks, but then again a fair bit of harder use will eventually arise. I don't have the time to maintain a carbon knife at work, so those are out I guess. Pinch grip, push-cutting, slicing. No chopping, I have other knives to take care of that. I want something agile, light and laser-like that is fairly easy to maintain with a good ceramic rod and will stand up to professional work. 

The weight and balance should be fairly far back or at least balanced under the first segment of my index my finger when I use the pinch grip. The blade itself: ideally french profile, pointy, spear-like tip and a fairly flat belly (that still has a slight curve though). Especially the latter is something I find missing on many models I found online (almost no vendors here sell non-german knives)...I'll try to illustrate. (please bear with me here, my knowledge on knife anatomy terminology is lacking even in my native language, which isn't english - this might sound rather funny to you all.)






Not that. Not that at all. The upper level drops way too fast at the tip.





No, that ain't it either. Too flat "belly" on that one. 





Aww yessss.  


As for edge and edge retention: I don't need a razor. I need a very good useable sharpness that can be maintained easily enough while at work. It should stand up to normal workloads, ideally I'd ose a sharpening rod as I do for my german ones. Hell, I have no idea about japanese knives and their maintenance. Spending another wad of cash for a decent (ceramic?) rod (no diamond, I hate to use knives that went over one...like an ultrafine serrated knife and won't hold an edge for ****) is fine by me. I might even learn how to use a waterstone one day but not now. Dunno about the various designs like spyderco sharpmaker, don't know what to make of those. Of course it will never see the inside of a dishwasher or even a sink if I can help it but I can't guarantee that I'll have the time to wash and wipe every time I have used it. 

A local dealership with a good rep among my colleagues told me Global lost a lot of their quality over the last few years and "isn't what they used to be" - I'd be grateful if anyone has any info on that one. 

I read quite a bit about high-techie stainless steels 

The questionnaire asks after cutting boards: plastic of course, It's the bloody law here.

Thanks in advance


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## DaninMD (Oct 8, 2014)

you posted a picture of that Hattori...any reason that wouldnt work? seems to match all your criteria?


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## Nihilio (Oct 8, 2014)

DaninMD said:


> you posted a picture of that Hattori...any reason that wouldnt work? seems to match all your criteria?



I admit it's beautiful...but the price... hey, it's on discout for 255 USD! Wow, not that much over budget. But what would I have to do as to take care of it? It would be a shame to simply mistreat something like this. Also...bloody hell, it's too much! I'm not nearly good enough to do it justice, this is...too much! ****, I can't work with something like that, it would be like my 90 years old grandmother driving to the baker's with a formula one car. 





Good lord, I can't stop googling for more pictures, this is...wow! 


This might be the most beautiful kitchen knife I ever saw, but...No, I propably need something like a MAC or a Global, not this!


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## Timthebeaver (Oct 8, 2014)

It's a fair bit over budget. 

If you like the Hattori profile but want to spend less coin I'd have a look at Misono's stainless offerings. The Moly is a great value knife that does everything pretty well, the 440 series has the same profile, excellent fit and finish and a slightly harder steel. Both will respond well to a ceramic rod (e.g. MAC black).

Different league to Global, which aren't bad knives but not in the class of these gyutos.


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## slash (Oct 8, 2014)

Look Man..... its only 43 euros more if you are saying" aww yesss" it means you like the knife,i would go for it.Its a small price to pay for somthing you really like especialy if you are gonna use it professionally go for it brother you wont regret it .


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## berko (Oct 8, 2014)

> Look Man..... its only 43 euros more if you are saying" aww yesss" it means you like the knife,i would go for it.Its a small price to pay for somthing you really like especialy if you are gonna use it professionally go for it brother you wont regret it .



+1


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## DaninMD (Oct 8, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> I admit it's beautiful...but the price... hey, it's on discout for 255 USD! Wow, not that much over budget. But what would I have to do as to take care of it? It would be a shame to simply mistreat something like this. Also...bloody hell, it's too much! I'm not nearly good enough to do it justice, this is...too much! ****, I can't work with something like that, it would be like my 90 years old grandmother driving to the baker's with a formula one car.



What about the HD series from Hattori? 240mm is $215 

Also, its VG10 steel i believe so much easier to deal with than carbon steel. The HD line is VG10, and i think the other one is too.


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## Lizzardborn (Oct 8, 2014)

Well if this is overbudget new you could always try to snatch one on BST.


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## Nihilio (Oct 8, 2014)

****, my coworkers will either not recognize it and grab it to open a carton of milk or they do and think I'm a pretentious prick. :sad0:

I might be better off getting something simple (and yet superior to what I own) along the lines of Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM, just to get used to that kind of knife... and to learn to take proper care of it. I feel very much like I don't deserve to use something like this. :beatinghead:


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## DaninMD (Oct 8, 2014)

in my experience if the difference between "meh, pretty good" and "awwww, yes" is not too much. go with the one you really want. odds are you will end up getting it anyway. its stainless steel, no special care. just keep that bad boy sharp.


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## slash (Oct 8, 2014)

More like a BMW 325 i


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## Nihilio (Oct 8, 2014)

DaninMD said:


> in my experience if the difference between "meh, pretty good" and "awwww, yes" is not too much. go with the one you really want. odds are you will end up getting it anyway.



I fear you're right.


DaninMD said:


> just keep that bad boy sharp.



How do I do that? I have no clue about any kind of sharpening beyond honing rods and the guy I trust to give my germans to. What do I need to learn?


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## DaninMD (Oct 8, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> I fear you're right.
> 
> How do I do that? I have no clue about any kind of sharpening beyond honing rods and the guy I trust to give my germans to. What do I need to learn?



going to need some whetstones, which you are going to need for any japanese knife you buy. a lot of people recommend combo stones, like a King 1k/6k stone. then you need to watch most of these: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB

no honing steel/ceramics for these knives. you can do touch ups on the 6k stone

I have a Hiromoto AS gyuto...love it. carbon core with stainless cladding. sells for $100 less than the Hatori. i love the knife, takes a great edge.


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## slash (Oct 8, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> ****, my coworkers will either not recognize it and grab it to open a carton of milk or they do and think I'm a pretentious prick. :sad0:
> 
> I might be better off getting something simple (and yet superior to what I own) along the lines of Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM, just to get used to that kind of knife... and to learn to take proper care of it. I feel very much like I don't deserve to use something like this. :beatinghead:


 Yea.... i know where your coming from.. but if you think your coworkers would say such a thing then **** em do what your doing and don't watch what other people say. Oh yea you do deserve to use that knife why should you not.


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## DaninMD (Oct 8, 2014)

slash said:


> Yea.... i know where your coming from.. but if you think your coworkers would say such a thing then **** em do what your doing and don't watch what other people say. Oh yea you do deserve to use that knife why should you not.



agreed. besides this isnt a $3k custom knife or anything. its very nice, but not to the pretentious prick level


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## Nihilio (Oct 8, 2014)

Ah ****, I forgot: if i'm unlucky enough the customs office will open the package and demand a hefty 19% VAT extra.



DaninMD said:


> going to need some whetstones, which you are going to need for any japanese knife you buy. a lot of people recommend combo stones, like a King 1k/6k stone. then you need to watch most of these: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB
> 
> no honing steel/ceramics for these knives. you can do touch ups on the 6k stone
> 
> I have a Hiromoto AS gyuto...love it. carbon core with stainless cladding. sells for $100 less than the Hatori. i love the knife, takes a great edge.



Sooo...

knife: 200
Stone: 60
VAT: 38 
239 
Double my budget 


As much as I love that knife I have never held it in my hand, don't know **** about it beyond that it's the most beautiful piece of steel I ever saw. I do believe this is something to keep in mind for later. 


So, back to square one: Stainless, blade geometry as close to the Hattori as can be done, easy maintenance, budget 140 (need to buy a stone after all). Also now I apparently need to buy a decent combo-stone and learn how to use it. :rofl2:


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## DaninMD (Oct 8, 2014)

lets just say the $$ posted on customs is "fuzzy" and leave it at that


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## Nihilio (Oct 8, 2014)

Sorry for the ninja-edit. Let me say again: 

*So, back to square one: Stainless, blade geometry as close to the Hattori as can be done, easy maintenance, budget 140 (need to buy a stone after all). Also now I apparently need to buy a decent combo-stone and learn how to use it. *


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## DaninMD (Oct 9, 2014)

Heard good things about Hiromota GS3 (stainless - similar to VG10). $145 for the 240mm gyuto: http://japanesechefsknife.com/Page4.html#GingamiNo.3

profile looks similar. I have the Hiromota AS version (carbon steel clad in SS) and love it. dont notice reactivity since so little of the carbon steel is exposed. $161 for this version and i think worth the small price increase http://japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html#AogamiSuper

Hiromoto AS gets a lot of recommendations as good first knife and i can see why.


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## mhlee (Oct 9, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> Sorry for the ninja-edit. Let me say again:
> 
> *So, back to square one: Stainless, blade geometry as close to the Hattori as can be done, easy maintenance, budget 140 (need to buy a stone after all). Also now I apparently need to buy a decent combo-stone and learn how to use it. *



I believe you are incorrectly referring to the shape of the blade along the edge as "geometry"; that is the profile. The " geometry" is the cross-section of the blade.


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## Nihilio (Oct 9, 2014)

mhlee said:


> I believe you are incorrectly referring to the shape of the blade along the edge as "geometry"; that is the profile. The " geometry" is the cross-section of the blade.



Oh, right you are. Sorry, english isn't my native language. What I meant was (read up on terminology) the profile of course.


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## masibu (Oct 9, 2014)

DaninMD said:


> Heard good things about Hiromota GS3 (stainless - similar to VG10). $145 for the 240mm gyuto: http://japanesechefsknife.com/Page4.html#GingamiNo.3
> 
> profile looks similar. I have the Hiromota AS version (carbon steel clad in SS) and love it. dont notice reactivity since so little of the carbon steel is exposed. $161 for this version and i think worth the small price increase http://japanesechefsknife.com/TenmiJyurakuSeries.html#AogamiSuper
> 
> Hiromoto AS gets a lot of recommendations as good first knife and i can see why.



+1 to this

I use a Hiromoto Ginsanko slicer at work from time to time and find that it takes a nice toothy edge and is plenty tough. Got a 240mm gyuto for a co-worker to use recently who has been happy with it too. I am yet to see any chipping issues on either blade. I personally keep mine touched up on a naniwa 2k superstone...I don't give my knives to anyone else to sharpen

I believe these knives are no longer being made anymore too, so whatever JCK has in stock now is all that's left.


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## Benuser (Oct 9, 2014)

A review of Hiromoto G3

http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/ktknv/hiromoto/hiromoto240gyuto.shtml

I wouldn't compare it to VG-10, I got the impression on the stones it's much finer grained.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 10, 2014)

Just don't buy esp. working situation using inferior knives who cares what other's think. Some very good knives are plane janes that work well. The Akifusa with SRS-15 steel which has good durable edge , and easy to sharpen. The powder steel is high quality & gets very sharp.

There are a lot of good reasons to learn to sharpen your own knives. One is that your blade gets trained to your sharpening style making touch ups easier. If someone else sharpens your blades you don't know what angles are being put on.


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## Nihilio (Oct 12, 2014)

So...I had a sort of revelation at work today. A colleague lent me his treasured Global GF-34 (he was stuck on fish prep all night, delivery ****** up) and it was a blast, an absolute beast. I never had worked with a 11" before, but this thing...nimble, accurate, fast and precise, feeling like a solid extension of my arm. He uses a microfeinzug steel to keep the edge up and a stone at home (so he told me) and rambled on about the softer metal of Globals (well...compared to other japanese knives that is) making them truly durable enough for work. I just loved the global-handle, don't know why. It's 160 here, which is 200U$D. 

I read that normal steels supposedly destroy global knives - is that true? His seemed to work just fine and I can't see why it shouldn't.


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## Benuser (Oct 12, 2014)

To understand the Globals you
should see them in their context.
They were the first Japanese knives meant for a Western general public used to very soft heavy German blades. In the time of their introduction, mid 80's, the Globals were revolutionary in the eyes of that same general public because of their low weight, sharpness out of the box, flat profile, good geometry. Please note their in our eyes soft steel is very forgiving:
people hadn't to change their poor habits too much. Add to that the easy availability and appealing design and you understand the commercial success.
It has never been a knife for the
little few.
Since their introduction, a lot of
much better knives have become
available to a broather public as
well. So, the Globals have become
largely outdated, but were an
introduction to better knives for a
lot of people. Still, Globals are IMHO much better knives than their Germans counterparts.
Personally, I don't like their steel -- sharpening them is not exactly very funny, and I'm not enchanted by their design. A few of their knives are -- within their limits --great performers, though. I have
especially the G2 and GS5 in mind.
About steeling Globals: yes, it should be possible, but steeling will always cause early fatigue of the steel, that will have to got abraded at the next sharpening session. So, steeling will -- in an indirect way -- cause heavy early wearing.
If not done very well steeling this stainless steel is likely to create a wire edge -- made of accumulated debris settled on top of the edge. A wire edge will give a short moment of extreme sharpness -- til it collapses, then causing a long time of extreme dullness, til it has been removed by competent sharpening. With Globals as with a lot of others better maintenance can be achieved by a few very light edge trailing strokes on a fine stone.


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## Nihilio (Oct 12, 2014)

Hum...I really, really like those handles though. And let's be honest: I don't actually want some high-end knives but solid stuff to work long hours with. Forgiving sounds rather good. Something that can be easily maintained, without investing all that much time and money, that will _just work_.

Edit: 

the 11 inch were fun though. :knight:


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## Nihilio (Oct 12, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> Hum...I really, really like those handles though. And let's be honest: I don't actually want some high-end knives but solid stuff to work long hours with. Forgiving sounds rather good. Something that can be easily maintained, without investing all that much time and money, that will _just work_.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> the 11 inch were fun though. :knight:



Sorry, cant edit again... What do you say to Fujiwara FKM? [video=youtube;a3JV5xDeYZ0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3JV5xDeYZ0[/video] Easy to sharpen, good edge, together with a stone well in budget. What'ya think?


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## Benuser (Oct 12, 2014)

The Globals are far from inexpensive, the Dickoron Mikrofeinzug is neither, and you will need anyway two stones. You don't want to start your sharpening on Globals -- it's not simple and I do know them very well. And sharpening they will need: edge retention is mediocre, and they start only to perform after good thinning and getting rid of the convex factory edge. Perhaps sending them directly to a good sharpener is an idea. 
Knives that have been proposed here are in no way a high-end ones and less expensive than the Global. Their maintenance is a bit simpler than with the Globals due to the better edge retention. 
If you like the Global handle, that's fine for you. See if you can work an entire shift with it.
It's entirely up to you, it's your work, your tool and you money. But there are no miracle solutions. Please be aware that your colleague's enthusiasm is perhaps founded in some auto-justification, and not so much in great knowledge and experience. The remark a softer steel would more truly durable (?!?) -- whatever that may mean -- is an indication.


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## Benuser (Oct 12, 2014)

The Fujiwaras are good entry knives. Factory edge from the ones I've seen though varied between somewhat usable and disastrous. No problem for an experienced user.


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## Nihilio (Oct 13, 2014)

Benuser said:


> The Fujiwaras are good entry knives. Factory edge from the ones I've seen though varied between somewhat usable and disastrous. No problem for an experienced user.



Experienced in what regard? I'm fairly experienced at cutting but have no clue about sharpening. 

Allright, are there alternatives? Since apparently I really need to get a stone and learn how to use it I have subtracted the 40 it will propably cost from the budget: 150U$D top for the knife alone.


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## masibu (Oct 13, 2014)

The fujiwara is what I would consider entry level. Edge retention is slightly better than german steels but being a thinner blade should cut better. For me, I'm neither here nor there on how I feel on that series. If you're truly looking for something budget conscious and bang for buck you're hard pressed to go past the tojiro dp series. I have found them on amazon for like $90 australian which is practically nothing. It's usually the knife I recommend to apprentices these days who need a good bit of kit to get started. I would prefer the tojiro to the fujiwara personally, although in my experience I think that a carbonext or the ginsanko hiromoto are even better again.

If you purchase the tojiro, it would free up cash for stones, which to be honest is almost as important as the knife you choose to buy.


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## berko (Oct 13, 2014)

> It's usually the knife I recommend to apprentices these days



+1


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## chinacats (Oct 13, 2014)

Maybe look at the western Suisin inox. Should be more ready to use, and if you buy it from Jon maybe he will put one if his special edges on it for you.


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## Nihilio (Oct 13, 2014)

First of all I couldn't find a german vendor for Fujiwara FKM at all. The closest thing would be a norvegian importer or just JCK or Korin. Secondly: wooden handles are a pet-peeve of our local health inspection and actually afaik unlawful in professional environments in Germany. 

Something I enjoyed was a rounded spine on the knife, right under the index finger in pinch grip. Lovely, that. What do you say to the Kanetsugu Pro M series? Any good?



masibu said:


> The fujiwara is what I would consider entry level. Edge retention is slightly better than german steels but being a thinner blade should cut better. For me, I'm neither here nor there on how I feel on that series. If you're truly looking for something budget conscious and bang for buck you're hard pressed to go past the tojiro dp series. I have found them on amazon for like $90 australian which is practically nothing. It's usually the knife I recommend to apprentices these days who need a good bit of kit to get started. I would prefer the tojiro to the fujiwara personally, although in my experience I think that a carbonext or the ginsanko hiromoto are even better again.
> 
> If you purchase the tojiro, it would free up cash for stones, which to be honest is almost as important as the knife you choose to buy.



I can't really get away from it: those handles by Global ar ultra-comfy. I'd be willing to dish out a little more just to have those actually...What would I realistically need to maintain them at a good sharpness for work over the next few years without having to send them to a professional? What would I need? And are they really that overpriced for the delivered value???

Here they're actually not that expensive, the GF34 would be 160. That's 200U$D and only 10 more than the comparable (?) Tojiro pro 3HQ of the same size. Will the Tojiro really be better? And if so in what way? (please keep in mind: I don't know **** about japanese knives in general  )


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## DaninMD (Oct 13, 2014)

Dude, make a decision already . most of the knives you are talking about or that have been recommended are all good knives. Buy one and start using it! You are not buying the last knife you will ever use. more than likely you are going to get a knife, love it, and buy three more over the next few weeks (haha, know from experience). The best knife to use is the one that you own, so buy one


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## Nihilio (Oct 13, 2014)

****, man, I can spend my hard-earned money _once_... Alright, I'll get the global and **** it all.:dance:


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## chinacats (Oct 13, 2014)

All that and you bought a global? Oh well, hope you enjoy...


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## Mucho Bocho (Oct 13, 2014)

Nihilio, WAIT WAIT. I'd like to suggest Cutco. You can get a real deal on them and they have a handle I'm sure you'll love. Cutco for the true Homemaker. Please post pics

http://www.cutco.com/products/product.jsp?itemGroup=1725

Don't for get the Forever Guarantee and free sharpening! How could you lose?


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## Nihilio (Oct 13, 2014)

Oh come on, of course I didn't pull the trigger on something like that...design-y and apparently overpriced as ****. Sorry that my attempt at humour on the post of DaninMD fell flat.   

I still have no ******* clue...I want a better knive than what I own, that's it. I'll try some stores in my area tomorrow and see what that does. So far the Tojiro DP3HQ sounds good. :cool2:


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## Nihilio (Oct 13, 2014)

Hey, found this while surfing this forum: looks...good o0 Very good infact, what is this?


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## Benuser (Oct 13, 2014)

That's a 2.5 meter blade. Good luck.


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## Benuser (Oct 13, 2014)

More seriously, a year ago I paid 145 for a Hiromoto AS 270mm gyuto, shipping included, with JCK.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Oct 13, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> Hey, found this while surfing this forum: looks...good o0 Very good infact, what is this?



It is a sketch of the profile of a kirisuke-tipped gyuto, with the dimensions off by a factor of ten.


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## Nihilio (Oct 13, 2014)

I never saw anything like this...that fine tip looks handy, does such a thing actually exist? (with measurements corrected of course  )


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 13, 2014)

Geez in just one week metalmaster has sold remaining Ginsan Gyuto's. He had the 270 with western handle, now they are gone too.


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## EdipisReks (Oct 13, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> I never saw anything like this...that fine tip looks handy, does such a thing actually exist? (with measurements corrected of course  )



Yes, they exist. The kiritsuke-tipped gyutos look better than they perform, in my opinion.


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## EscoffiersKNightmare (Oct 14, 2014)

Just get the hattori fh that you really want and call it a day. Yeah its a good chunk of change more than some others but if its the one you want its really not that big a deal when you think about how often you will use it and how long it will last you for.


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## Nihilio (Oct 14, 2014)

It does need rather heavy maintenance though, as far as I can gather...Maintenance I have no Idea about. Could you point me toward any ressource I could read to get a grip on that?


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## Benuser (Oct 14, 2014)

What makes you think a Hattori FH would require a lot of maintenance?? It's monosteel VG-10.


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## DaninMD (Oct 14, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> It does need rather heavy maintenance though, as far as I can gather...Maintenance I have no Idea about. Could you point me toward any ressource I could read to get a grip on that?




what maintenance?? its a knife, not a ferrari  . its stainless steel. Just wash it and dry it off after using it. only other maintenance is keeping it sharp which goes for any knife you buy.

i think you are over complicating it a little bit. its a tool, not a collector item. Use and don't be careless which i don't think is going to be an issue based on how much thought you are putting into it.


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## Benuser (Oct 14, 2014)

Some reading: excerpts from Chad Ward's An Edge in the Kitchen.

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/26036-knife-maintenance-and-sharpening/


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## Dardeau (Oct 14, 2014)

A coworker of mine that does not go out of his way to baby his knives has a FH. He's been using it for about a year now and it is in pretty damn good shape. 
It's not the knife I would buy, but it does a great job. And if it gets you excited, then it is the best knife for you. 
I will echo the rest of these guys and say that you should buy some stones. It is a little pricy, but the Gesshin combo has been at the restaurant permasoaking in a third pan, being used by all manner of cretins for over a year and I expect it to last several more years. 
The Martell set is another option for quality stones that you can keep using forever, for about the same price.


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## Benuser (Oct 14, 2014)

Users in Europe can get Choseras at a reasonable price with knivesandtools.de


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## Dardeau (Oct 14, 2014)

Aww ****, if you can get a good price in Choseras, you are gold. The worst thing that will happen sharpening is you get a raised heel or a birds beak. A quick trip to one of the vendor sharpeners or if you ask nicely a volunteer experienced sharpener from the forum will fix that. You will probably scratch your knife up. Learning, practice, and sandpaper can fix that. 

If you are really strapped for cash, buy a fujiwara or something else less than 100 usd and a couple of stones. But you sound really excited about the FH and that excitement can really help drive you to learn more about using and sharpening the knife.


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## labor of love (Oct 14, 2014)

If you go the Chosera route dont permasoak them.


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## Matus (Oct 14, 2014)

If you are on a tight budget that there is absolutely nothing wrong getting a 1000/6000 King stone (check http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de - get the larger one). 

Once you get some real cash just a few stones from Maksim @ JNS or Jon @ JKI


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## Nihilio (Oct 14, 2014)

DaninMD said:


> what maintenance?? its a knife, not a ferrari  . its stainless steel. Just wash it and dry it off after using it. only other maintenance is keeping it sharp which goes for any knife you buy.
> 
> i think you are over complicating it a little bit. its a tool, not a collector item. Use and don't be careless which i don't think is going to be an issue based on how much thought you are putting into it.



Thought is one thing - thought happens at home, on my day off. Professional use is another thing...by maintenance I was trying to refer to sharpening the damn thing: how often is that actually neccessary under daily heavy use? Can I keep them in shape with a ceramic rod for a few weeks or even months? 



Dardeau said:


> Aww ****, if you can get a good price in Choseras, you are gold. The worst thing that will happen sharpening is you get a raised heel or a birds beak. A quick trip to one of the vendor sharpeners or if you ask nicely a volunteer experienced sharpener from the forum will fix that. You will probably scratch your knife up. Learning, practice, and sandpaper can fix that.
> 
> If you are really strapped for cash, buy a fujiwara or something else less than 100 usd and a couple of stones. But you sound really excited about the FH and that excitement can really help drive you to learn more about using and sharpening the knife.



Not strapped for cash, but...dammit, I might have some idle money right now but it accumulated over quite a while. Yes, i admit it, I'm miserly. Also how long does it actually take to learn to sharpen properly? Can I not simply fetch some **** from my mums kitchen drawer and train on that? 

Oh, and what the ****'s a chosera?


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## DaninMD (Oct 14, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> Thought is one thing - thought happens at home, on my day off. Professional use is another thing...by maintenance I was trying to refer to sharpening the damn thing: how often is that actually neccessary under daily heavy use? Can I keep them in shape with a ceramic rod for a few weeks or even months?



I have no idea how long the edge will last, that depends on a lot of things - how you use the knife, the type of edge you put on it...but i know this, its going to last longer than your current knives..who knows a week, two weeks? how long does your knife last now?. Your making a lot out of sharpening, its not that big of a deal. I sharpen my knives in 5-10 minutes, but thats for a full sharpening. buy the 1k/6k stones as recommended. thats what you will use to keep your knife sharp. you will run it over the 6k stone a few times to touch up the edge. that will buy you time and keep it sharp. You gotta learn to sharpen your knife and its not difficult. just buy the knife a 1k/6k stone (or something similar) and get going. yes you can start on some cheap knives for practice. 

Dont paralyze yourself with analysis. get a knife, stones and go.


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## Dardeau (Oct 14, 2014)

I would call what my knives get heavy daily use. I sharpen maybe once a week, maybe every two weeks if I get lazy, and maintain my edge by refreshing my microbevel on a 6k stone I keep at work. Maybe two minutes for touchup per knife, and an hour or so at home sharpening the six or so knives I use at work. 
I rarely actually do all six at once, I have two yanagiba, two deba, and two knives I use for everything else, so I only sharpen two or three at a time and keep them in a rotation. If I try to do all six at once I'm getting sloppy by four or five.

Chosera is a line of stones by Naniwa. They are a solid splash and go stone (they do not require soaking). If they are available to you at a good price and easier to get than shipping something from the states, go for it. Something to look out for is that they are often sold without bases, which can shorten their lifespan. For a bit more you can buy the synthetic set from Maxim at JNS, which could easily be all the stone you ever need.

Sit down with an adult beverage of choice and watch the sharpening tutorials on the Japanese Knife Imports YouTube channel. See if that looks like something that you want to spend a little of your off time doing. If so buy a knife that excites you and a couple of the Choseras, or Japanese Natural Stone's (located in the EU) synthetic set. If not, maybe think about a carbon Sabatier, a forced patina, and a Dickoron steel. You could use that for months without taking it to the stones. It wouldn't be great, but certainly passably sharp for a pro environment.


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## Dardeau (Oct 14, 2014)

As far as getting a trainer knife, crappy knives are harder to sharpen. I have a friend with Rachel Ray knives. I'd rather do almost anything to avoid sharpening those knives again.
Learning takes forever, I learn something new each time I sharpen, and I'm sure most of these other people do too. Hell, Dave probably does. But to get to where your knife is sharper than the rest of the suckers in your kitchen? A couple of weeks, maybe. If you have the manual skills to chiffonade parsley or debone poultry you can teach your hands this skill.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 14, 2014)

Depends how sharp you like your knives. Highly recommend Broida's JKI (knifesharpeningplaylist). Watch the first 10 tutorals on double bevel knives. It's free and solid technique. Dardeau mentioned Dickoron polishing steel. I like that steel as well, but not cheap. Victorinox combo fine polish is around 30 bucks. A few Lite measured strokes on polishing steel or smooth ceramic. 

Good quality stainless steel is much easier to learn on than cheap stainless. I find VG-10 easy to sharpen, Ginsan, AEB-L, SRS-15 all good steels to start on the stones. Yeh learning freehand is just good technique, focus, hand eye coordination. Than again it is absolutely worth it to spend a little effort to get good at it. Nothing is worse than using dull knives in a production kitchen.


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## Nihilio (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks, Dardeau, that helped a lot. Here's what I could get, including prices: http://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/naniwa-chosera.html What grades of stone do I actually need for the beginning though?


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## Benuser (Oct 15, 2014)

Get the 800 and 3000, corresponds more or less to JIS 1200 and 4000. Have the old Chosera ones, old price and bigger. You may want to add later a Naniwa Snow-white 8k.


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## masibu (Oct 15, 2014)

the chosera 1k is a fantastic stone, I highly rate it. Great for a medium stone. There are plenty of options out there...but each knife you buy will have different requirements. If you buy what people consider a "laser" type knife you won't really need anything below 1000 grit for a while, where some other knives such as the tojiro may benefit from a bit of minor thinning out of the box so perhaps a 400ish stone is useful. Generally, with sharpening you probably want about three stones eventually to maximise efficiency. In the case of the tojiro, the 400ish grit to get started and thin a bit, a 1000ish grit to bring up a burr and then a 5000ish grit stone to finish and clean up

Before worrying about thinning though, you want to get used to just actually sharpening, getting the muscle memory worked out and the movements feeling natural. As a 500 grit stone is quite coarse, it is quite easily to ruin your edge in the beginning so I would maybe get at least a 1kish and 5kish stone. If you don't want to spend much money, there are combination stones out there you can use which incorporate different grits on either side. Sometimes you can find stones for cheap here on the bst forum as well.

Speaking of price, don't feel pressured to buy the expensive Choseras if you can't afford them. Dave Martell's set of a 500 beston and 1200 bester and the 5000 suehiro rika is a great all purpose set. I honestly prefer the feedback of a Suehiro Rika 5k to the feedback of the chosera 5k though that could just be me. It feels smoother to me and depending where you order from is significantly cheaper. Whilst the chosera 1k feels nice to use, the bester 1200 is no slouch either. The 500 stone beston is a staple to many people's sharpening regime. As an added bonus, all three of these stones can be soaked in water indefinitely (they need to be soaked before use at the very least). The choseras are splash and go and can be a bit finicky for some to figure out at first.


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## Dardeau (Oct 15, 2014)

You'll need one that is about 800-2k and one that 3k-4k. Really a medium and a medium fine, but numbers help at first. Once you look at what the stones do, you will understand better. The grits benuser offered are about what I would get. 
If Dave's stones are cheaper with taxes and shipping get them, if a couple Choseras shipped from Germany are cheaper get them. I wouldn't stress about a low stone, your knives and progress will tell you when you need one.
Have fun and remember not to get lazy, I'm about to have to do a quick and dirty job on my gyuto of the day before my cooks get in because I got caught up in yard work in my day off!


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## Benuser (Oct 15, 2014)

No need for a coarser than a Chosera 800 unless big repairs are involved. The Chosera is a very fast cutter. I use it for thinning behind the edge as well, with soft and hard carbons, mono VG-10, soft stainless clad.


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## Ruso (Oct 15, 2014)

For 1Kish stone I would not spend money on Chosera right away. Start with King 1000, it is cheap and quite a good stone actually.


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## Benuser (Oct 15, 2014)

Don't start with a slow stone. Fatigue and concentration loss will induce errors and bad habits.


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## Ruso (Oct 15, 2014)

Benuser said:


> Don't start with a slow stone. Fatigue and concentration loss will induce errors and bad habits.


Then you should not be recommending Chosera 800. I would not call it a fast one. Between King 1000 and Chosera 800 King is faster IMO.

Also, following this logic it's better to start learning on a lower grit one ~300-500. Which actually, is not such a bad idea.


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## masibu (Oct 15, 2014)

There are honestly countless stones out there as we all have different preferences. I think feedback is more important than speed although slow stones are painful to use. Something relatively dish resistant is probably important too as something soft and and muddy will wear quickly, increasing the likelihood that the stone will be out of flat sooner rather than later when just starting out sharpening.


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## chinacats (Oct 16, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Also, following this logic it's better to start learning on a lower grit one ~300-500. Which actually, is not such a bad idea.



This is a horrible idea, you can do so much more damage more quickly with a coarse stone. 

800-1.2k is a good place to start and then add something in the 4-6k range. 

You should also be thinking about how you will flatten these stones--nothing worse than sharpening with a dished out mess.

I do agree that faster stones are easier to learn on--less time on each stone to potentially screw up or round the edge.

Cheers


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## Nihilio (Oct 16, 2014)

So here's the deal, please C&C 

1. Tojiro DP 3 layers HQ 270mm (150)
2. King combo 1000/6000 (39)

and of course a fitting holder for the stone. Will this do what I want it to? Do I need anythind else that I'd need right away?

As for training sharpening: my workplace offers plenty of German knives ridden to ****, I thought I'd pick the least ruined one, watch some videos and try my luck.


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## Dardeau (Oct 16, 2014)

Do it. The FH aren't going anywhere, and neither are any of the stones. Let us know how it works out.


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## DaninMD (Oct 16, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> So here's the deal, please C&C
> 
> 1. Tojiro DP 3 layers HQ 270mm (150)
> 2. King combo 1000/6000 (39)
> ...



sounds good. I dont have a stone holder and have never seemed to need one. I just put the stones on top of a damp towel and and they stay put. i guess the extra height could be nice but its never been an issue for me

only other thing you need is a way to keep your stones flat. the cheapest option, which i use, is wet/dry sandpaper on top of 12"x12" flat granite tile. i use wet/dry grits of around 220 to 400.


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## berko (Oct 16, 2014)

150 seems rather expensive compared to this


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## masibu (Oct 16, 2014)

Should be able to find a tojiro dp for cheaper... definitely


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## Matus (Oct 16, 2014)

For the flattening of the stone - you can use sandpaper on a floor tile (for the flatness). That's what I used to do before I got a diamond plate for the job.


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## Steverino (Oct 16, 2014)

Like DaninMD I also just use a damp towel on the counter and avoid having to use a stone holder. For the extra height, I put a piece of 2x4 in between. I just use a slightly larger towel and wrap it over and under the 2x4 in a single layer. It stays very stable.


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## Nihilio (Oct 16, 2014)

berko said:


> 150 seems rather expensive compared to this


That's Import - add customs 3% and 19% VAT.

I'll keep looking for a better price though. 

Oh, and being a stupid Kraut i don't know: a 2 by 4 was some sort of wood, right?


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## Ruso (Oct 16, 2014)

I found this on amazon.de should be right up your alley. 80 Euros.
http://www.amazon.de/dp/B000UANWIC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Nihilio (Oct 17, 2014)

Ruso said:


> I found this on amazon.de should be right up your alley. 80 Euros.
> http://www.amazon.de/dp/B000UANWIC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



Hey, First i though: oh, another import-vendor, but no! He says shipping to germany is 1 Day! No way that's overseas, thank you!! Dunno why he only wants half price compared to other vendors, but i'll be damned if i will not take advantage of that.


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## Steverino (Oct 17, 2014)

Sorry about the lack of explanation on the 2x4. It's a piece of wood that's approximately two inches by four inches, by whatever length is needed in the antiquated measuring system we still use in the U.S. They're probably the most common sort of solid construction wood used over here for framing houses, walls, etc. Basically, you could just use any piece of wood that's wider and longer than your stone and gives you a bit of extra height without creating an unstable base. Of course, there's nothing wrong with a stone holder. I just find this works well and I got a scrap piece of wood for free.


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## Matus (Oct 17, 2014)

Ruso said:


> I found this on amazon.de should be right up your alley. 80 Euros.
> http://www.amazon.de/dp/B000UANWIC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



This item will be shipped from Japan, but since it comes through Amazon there will be no additional VAT charged. I have already ordered some items via Amazon.de and actually did not realise that they will be shipped from Japan. Just took a little longer, but arrived fine. And no additional VAT charges.


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## Nihilio (Oct 18, 2014)

Anyone know What this is supposed to be?
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B001TPACSU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I'd be willing to spend the extra 14 


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## Dardeau (Oct 18, 2014)

I'd go with the regular DP, that handle looks less than comfy.


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## MikeHL (Oct 18, 2014)

Its the pro line of Tojiro, I have the cleaver. its pretty comfy but there might be some slippage issues when wet. The steel is the same as the DP line from my understanding. 

http://www.tojiro-japan.com/products/326/


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## Chifunda (Oct 18, 2014)

Nihilio said:


> Oh, and being a stupid Kraut i don't know: a 2 by 4 was some sort of wood, right?



You think *you're* stupid? How about this: a 2 x 4 actually measures 1 1/2" x 3 1/2". :scratchhead:


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## Casaluz (Nov 13, 2014)

COnsider the Gesshin Kagero as a great option


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