# UK Stones



## cotedupy (Dec 15, 2021)

Anybody use them? I want to see pics of what you've got! First though a brief introduction, and a look at some of the more famous types...

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The UK perhaps even surpasses Japan in terms of the breadth of historically quarried and documented sharpening stones. The number of quarries that at one time or another have produced whetstones probably runs to the high hundreds, though the knowledge or exact whereabouts of many has been lost to time. That is not of course to infer any kind of qualitative superiority, rather I think a quirk of history; you don't spend hundreds of years running about the globe imposing your flag and language on local populations without an awful lot of sharp things backing you up, and a great number of quarries to produce stone for building. Suitable material for producing high quality whetstones doubtless exists in almost every country in the world, it's probably just that the British Empire needed them more.

Stones of all kinds were produced; from coarse grinding and scythe stones, through to the finest of razor hones, though almost none still produce whetstones in any kind of commercial capacity. Many of these old stones are now highly prized, with prices for identified examples having exploded in the last decade or so, nevertheless the stones can still be found relatively cheaply, especially in the UK, as many types are oilstones now covered in grime and unidentifiable until cleaned.

Here's a look at some of mine, and a quick introduction to perhaps the three most famous types of UK stones; those from Snowdonia in Wales, the Ayrshire stones from Scotland, and the Charnley Forest stone from Leicestershire. These are extensively discussed elsewhere in regards to razor honing, so perhaps it might be interesting to give my thoughts on how they perform in terms of knife sharpening. It's worth noting that when I describe a stone as 'slow' that might be comparable to the large majority of Japanese natural stones that I have tried - in the grand scheme of things jnats are fairly slow stones. A 'fast' stone might be a Washita or Turkish Oilstone, though none of the UK stones would reach that level.

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*Welsh Stones*
There are mostly found in Snowdonia national park in northern Wales, and there were a number of quarries that produced both slate and novaculite sharpening stones, the most famous of which is Llyn Idwal*:












The Idwal stone is a kind of novaculite with a flinty, slate-like cleavage, grey or green in colour usually with black specks or lines, and often with a 'bubbly' appearance on the surface which you can see on the second stone down. It's a very hard stone that works in the region of 6-12k depending on the example. There were probably number of small quarries near to each other that produced similar stones, the third one, and the final picture, are probably what was known as a 'Grecian Hones' - often lighter green in colour with more distinct speckles. The stones are very hard, though cut quite quickly at a fine level so can be used with pressure for faster material removal, either with water or oil. These are *very* good knife stones, and leave a fine edge with lots of teeth, comparable to a nice coticule edge, or perhaps a fast, medium Shoubudani or Nakayama, though they will not polish.

There are also a number of Welsh slates produced in the same area, often sold as Llyn Melynllyn*. They're usually either purple or blue-grey, though can be green as in the case of the Glarafon stone. One of the few UK stones still in (small) production is the blue-grey Dragon's Tongue. These Welsh slates tend to be fine razor finishing stones, as they're relatively slow and leave refined edges, for knives they would be more useful for yanagiba and other fine slicing knives, than for general purpose sharpening. The first of the pictures below is possibly a Glanrafon though they would usually be lighter in colour, the second a selection of grey slates, likely to have been produced under the 'Yellow Lake' brand name, the third is likely the purple type of Llyn Melynllyn.
















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*Scottish Stones*
The most well-known of these came from a handful of nearby quarries in Ayrshire in South-West Scotland; the Tam O'Shanter, Dalmore Blue, Dalmore Yellow, and Water of Ayr. Of these the TO'S is perhaps the most recognised, a fine siltstone or shale, usually grey though sometimes green, blue or white, and always with a distinctive speckled pattern that gave its other name: Snakestone. The first picture shows the typical grey type, the second a blue variety (not to be confused with the Dalmore Blue, which is a different stone):











It works between about 6-12k depending on the stone in question, with most around 8 or 9k, and can be medium soft through to quite hard. The stone works fairly slowly, though faster with atoma slurry or oil, and in a curious way; raising a burr is difficult to impossible, though it leaves a very fine edge with considerable bite and teeth. Like the Llyn Idwal, the Tam O'Shanter is a very good knife finisher, comparable to top Japanese stones.

The Dalmore Blue and Yellow stones are coarser sandstones; the Blue in the low to mid 1000s and the Yellow a bit below 1k, both are slow to medium though again faster with oil (I have not used a Dalmore Yellow, but that's the verdict of others). The surface of the DB feels and looks coarser than it is; it's actually a rather nice stone in use and will put a good mid-grit edge on a kitchen knife.

The Yellow stone is a notably coarse-looking light grey, and the Blue a darker grey often with swirls or patterns on the surface and layering on the sides. The Blue will often turn brown when used with oil, as in the picture below.






Two other stones worth mentioning are: the Water Of Ayr - a fine and hard dark grey stone around 10-12k. And the Fiddich River Stone - a very attractive type of marble, visually can be similar to the Glanrafon stone though it's more yellow than green. I don't have either of these, but my impression is that they are too fine for kitchen knives, they are razor finishing stones.

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* The 'LL' sound in Welsh is one that doesn't exist in the English language made by putting the tip of your tongue on the roof of your mouth and pushing air out of the sides. The result sounds a bit like combining 'cks' and 'chs'. Llyn Idwal means Lake of Idwal (an ancient Welsh prince), Llyn Melynllyn means Yellow Lake.



TBC...


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## riba (Dec 15, 2021)

Thank you very much, a very enjoyable and interesting read!


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## cotedupy (Dec 15, 2021)

*Charnley Forest*
In the last decade or so the Charnley Forest stone has probably become the most celebrated and sought after whetstone from the UK. Like the Idwal it is a type of novaculite going from quite light green to quite dark, often but not always with distinctive red stripes or markings. Many are quite long and thin, irregularly sized, and tend to be found in boxes carved to fit the specific stone.
















The CF is also of a broadly comparable grit to the Idwal; around 8-12k, though it is slower and leans more toward edge refinement rather than abrasion. The stone is hard, though less so the the Idwal, however the relative lack of speed makes it seem harder in use. It can be used with water or oil, and made more aggressive with mud raised from an atoma or slurry stone. But whatever way you spin it the Charnley Forest is quite a slow stone, and harder examples can be extravagantly difficult to use for kitchen knives. Softer stones are better (for knives) but will still leave very polished and refined edges. Another stone that is better suited for razors or perhaps yanagi, imo.

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*Moughton Whetstone*
A special bonus stone from Yorkshire now - the Moughton Whetstone. This is a very rare stone indeed; it was apparently popular in the Sheffield cutlery industry, though historical examples are effectively non-existent, I have never seen one for sale or even a picture. I suspect it is probably better known now than it as been in the past, because of its quite extraordinary good looks:











The Moughton Whetstone is a kind of siltstone or shale, and the purple banding caused by oxidation of ferrite iron in its layers. Henk Bos* describes the stone as quite hard, but that's certainly not the case for this example, for a natural stone this is reasonably soft. Sawing the slurry stone off the end and flattening the bottom took me only a few minutes. It's very slow stone and raising mud is difficult, which gives the impression in use that the stone is very hard, and also means it finishes finer and more polished than the grain size would suggest. I would have this at around 7 or 8k, but the effective finish on a razor can be much higher.

Perhaps the most interesting aspect of the Moughton stone is how thirsty it is. If soaked for 30 - 60 minutes the stone will become quicker and generate more mud. It is I think an example of that rare thing - a natural soaking stone. Used like this the Moughton Whetstone will produce a very fine edge on a kitchen knife, reminiscent of Japanese finishing stones, and can be used for kasumi polishing; it creates a beautiful, hazy, scratch-free jigane, though struggles to pull a mirror from hagane.

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* For anyone unaware of Henk Bos' _Grinding and Honing 1-4_; they are the most comprehensive studies of European natural sharpening stones ever written. And much of the information in my posts comes from Part Three, which covers stones from the UK as well as some others.


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## cotedupy (Dec 17, 2021)

No other UK stones KKF? Alright I'll go again...

This is an interesting one that arrived as I was writing the posts above, which I'd put a low bid on and turned out to be the only person. You couldn't really tell what it was but a few things caught my eye; under grime it appeared as though it might be green with some black lines, but the kicker was where the seller was. Conwy is a somewhat random town in north Wales very close to many of the historic quarries, so I thought it might possibly be an Idwal.






It's certainly a kind of muddy green/brown colour and has some black lines, but it's not an Idwal. It's quite coarse at around 2k, and you can see some bits of quartz glinting on the surface there - it's a sandstone. And there is one other type of whetstone historically quarried in north Wales, not in Snowdonia but on the coast near the tiny village of Gwespyr, just 20 miles from Conwy.

There's short section on the *Gwespyr Stone* in the Henk Bos paper I linked to above. It's a medium grit, hard-ish and quite slow sandstone, good for bevel-setting on razors as it leaves a very light scratch pattern. There are people over on B&B who have looking to get their hands on one for a while, but it's probably less rare than you might think. The stone was quite popular back in the day, and produced in reasonable quantity apparently, a couple of people have said to me since that they've had multiple examples of the same, but didn't know what it was, so sold them as an 'unknown UK stone similar to a Dalmore Blue' or somesuch.

I used this to set a razor bevel last night and it is indeed very good for that, though it's absolutely hopeless on harder Japanese steels. Even with considerable atoma slurry and a lot of pressure I failed to raise a burr on Aogami 2, which is quite something considering the stone is not particularly fine. Wouldn't reccomend for knives at all.

The stones often seem to have been used with oil which turns them darker (the same thing happens to Dalmores); they seem to have been a lighter grey-brown colour before use.


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## Luftmensch (Dec 17, 2021)

Wow! Thanks for making the effort! You've got quite a growing collection there. It's enjoyable following your dive into different stones.




cotedupy said:


> The 'LL' sound in Welsh is one that doesn't exist in the English language made by putting the tip of your tongue on the roof of your mouth and pushing air out of the sides. The result sounds a bit like combining 'cks' and 'chs'.



Reminds me...



Nailed it...


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## mozg31337 (Dec 18, 2021)

Thanks, such a wonderful collection you have there!
I live in UK and in the process of switching away from ceramics to natural stones for sharpening. I do have a couple of jnats for polishing, which I should use more often to be honest. But what I would like to learn is what stones should I look for as the first couple of stones for sharpening. Something below 1k grit equivalent and something between 1 and 2K? I have a few Japanese knives with blue 2 and white 2 steel. As this is going to be my first stone and a lot of learning ahead, I do not want to spend a great deal of cash. Thanks for any suggestions. Any tips on where to buy them? Cheers


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## cotedupy (Dec 19, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Wow! Thanks for making the effort! You've got quite a growing collection there. It's enjoyable following your dive into different stones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Excellent! 

Strange, strange language.


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## cotedupy (Dec 19, 2021)

mozg31337 said:


> Thanks, such a wonderful collection you have there!
> I live in UK and in the process of switching away from ceramics to natural stones for sharpening. I do have a couple of jnats for polishing, which I should use more often to be honest. But what I would like to learn is what stones should I look for as the first couple of stones for sharpening. Something below 1k grit equivalent and something between 1 and 2K? I have a few Japanese knives with blue 2 and white 2 steel. As this is going to be my first stone and a lot of learning ahead, I do not want to spend a great deal of cash. Thanks for any suggestions. Any tips on where to buy them? Cheers



Umm... unfortunately it's lower grit levels that natural stones generally tend to just not be as good as synthetics. There were probably considerable numbers of different coarse whetstones and scythestones quarried in the UK (Devonshire Batts for instance) at various points, but were made redundant pretty much overnight by the invention of SiC and AlOx stones in the second half of the 19th century. Very few coarse natural sharpening stones are still quarried anywhere.

A couple of coarser UK stones that come up occasionally are the Dalmore Yellow, sometimes sold as the 'Mikado' stone, and the Dalmore Blue. And you can actually buy them as new old stock at the moment from a vendor in Holland: Ayr stones NOS (Tam O'Shanter) sale - DeMessenslijper . Though note they're not going to be anything like as fast as synths.

TBH I'd reccommend either an old Washita (which you actually find quite often in UK antiques shops, salvage yards &c.), or a Turkish / Cretan stone. Both are much faster than than sandstones such as the Dalmores. And you can actually buy new Cretan stones, though again - not in the UK: Cretan Knives Skalidakis Natural Sharpening Stone of Crete Ladakono 6000/8000 Grit | Cretan knives

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(If you'd like an old Washita ping me a message - I probably have one that I could sell. I'm in London atm and would save me a bit of weight taking in back to Aus!)


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## cotedupy (Dec 20, 2021)

A few days ago I talked myself into buying* this mystery 'Grey and Green Stone With Natural Crack', as it was very cheap and I thought there was an off-chance it might be something quite rare, highly regarded, and usually quite pricey, that I'd been looking for for a while.






It arrived today and I am a very happy bunny indeed. This is the *Glanrafon Stone *which I mentioned in my first post.











The Glanrafon is a type of very hard slate, again from north Wales. It feels a little peculiar in the hand; slightly silky like a fine synthetic stone and as though it's going to be quite soft, though that idea is quickly dispelled when you try to lap it. With the surface finished up to 1200 it acts very finely - a true razor finisher. But if left at 400 or lower, and with mud raised, it'll leave a very fine but still aggressive edge on a kitchen knife. Though it isn't that quick, slow to medium I'd say, and raising a burr is difficult to impossible.

One interesting feature is that when used with an atoma slurry it seems as though it could be very good bevel polishing stone. This was just a quick try on a knife that I'm currently getting some low spots out of, but it's creating quite high contrast with a very bright hagane, and doesn't seem to be burnishing the cladding.






The Glanrafon Stone has been pretty much at the top of my bucket list for a little while now, and seems like it's reputation is well-deserved, so I'm rather happy to have!



* It doesn't take a massive amount of convincing tbh


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## Luftmensch (Dec 20, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> This is the *Glanrafon Stone *which I mentioned in my first post.



Wow! Quite pretty!!


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## KingShapton (Dec 21, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> A few days ago I talked myself into buying* this mystery 'Grey and Green Stone With Natural Crack', as it was very cheap and I thought there was an off-chance it might be something quite rare, highly regarded, and usually quite pricey, that I'd been looking for for a while.
> 
> View attachment 156903
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Absolut beautiful stone!


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## captaincaed (Dec 21, 2021)

The hits keep coming


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## cotedupy (Dec 21, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Wow! Quite pretty!!





KingShapton said:


> Absolut beautiful stone!



Cheers guys! They're certainly right up with some of the prettiest stones out there. Here are a couple of even more patterned examples other people have found:







captaincaed said:


> The hits keep coming



I'm certainly riding a bit of a crest of good fortune atm. Usually I'd expect some misses; for instance of the 25 or so UK ebay stones I'd bought over the last year I think 4 of them turned out to be SiC / AlOx, which is probably about my average. But since being back here it's just been one gem after another.

Particularly happy about this one as they're incredibly uncommon, and quite easy to id. So don't tend to go unnoticed on ebay, and always sell for a lot - the last one that came up went for £165, whereas I paid a tenth of that from the website of a vintage tool shop. There's always an element of luck in these things, but in this instance I think I had quite a good 'eye' too .


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## Skylar303 (Jan 28, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Cheers guys! They're certainly right up with some of the prettiest stones out there. Here are a couple of even more patterned examples other people have found:
> 
> View attachment 157058
> View attachment 157059
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You got some eagle eyes for sure! Good bit of information as well in the thread. I've never even heard of the Moughton! The Tam a razor finisher one and Water of Ayr have been on my list, but only if I find them on a budget. Not many know about Ayr. I'm a sucker for patterns, I may have to go look for a Glanrafon now.


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## stringer (Jan 28, 2022)

What do you reckon this beast is?


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## cotedupy (Feb 12, 2022)

Some more...

The Scottish Tam O' Shanter stone is normally grey. Though it can be all sorts of other colours too; green, blue (as pictured above), yellowish, or white. All of the colours display the distinct 'snakeskin' speckles, and most of them behave similarly as sharpening stones, with the exception of one:






The *White Tam O' Shanter *is a notably finer and harder version, running in the region of 10-12k, as opposed to to the 6-8k ish of the other varieties / colours. While the 'normal' ToS is an excellent fine finishing stone for kitchen knives, the white variety is not. It is however a _very good_ razor stone.


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## Desert Rat (Feb 12, 2022)

This is also Glanrafon, at least as far as I can tell. It's about 2 1/2 "x 5 1/2". I got it on the bay from a guy that said he bought it in England from a barber who told him it was a Fiddich River hone. Could have been a BS story, who knows?

The edges I get are very coticule like, skin friendly but not in the upper end of keen. The feed back reminds me of the last pass with the trowel on a concrete slab. Soft and smooth with fine sand in the back ground. On the lower end of the speed scale, I use the broken off corner as a rubber which speeds it up.


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## cotedupy (Feb 13, 2022)

Here now is my favourite whetstone of all, for reasons that are as much personal, as the fact that it's also rather good...

When I went back to visit the UK over Christmas my 95 y/o grandmother had found an old stone of my grandfather's and set it aside for me. And it turned out to be rather good, and very interesting. It’s a very dark, very soft, fine grained slate, and a completely superb razor finisher.

You can tell from the box that this is a stone that was originally sold by AB Salmen, who for quite some time were the largest purveyor of natural and synthetic sharpening stones in the UK. They sold stones from all over Britain and the world, including Thuringians, and this one looks and behaves quite a lot like a dark blue/black/mottled Thuri, albeit a very soft example...






But I don’t think it’s a Thuri. Nor is it a traditional example of the Yellow Lake Oilstone, as they were more of a grey colour. This stone may be something rather uncommon, known as the *Salmen’s Hone.*






In fact it's so niche and uncommon that I would never have come across this stone before if it wasn't for a weird coincidence... A few months previously a friend who's one of the mods over on B&B found a broken stone in here in Australia which he rated very highly indeed as a razor finisher, and asked me about it. It was clearly a Salmen box, and so I did some research.

Here's his - originally, and then tidied up and used with oil:











And my (grandfather's) stone:






Which are very clearly the same thing.

Despite appearances the Salmen's Hone is not exactly a kind of slate. This type of thing was often sold traditionally as 'Silkstone', sometimes with the name 'Cambrock' added, though the exact meaning and etymology of both of these is slightly mysterious. The name Cambrock seems likely to be a portmanteau of Cambrian Rock, which would suggest the stone is Welsh. Or less likely - from the geological Cambrian period.

Here is a description of the stone in comparison to the 'normal' Yellow Lake Oilstone:






It can be used with a heavy atoma slurry to put a final, rather good edge on a kitchen knife, and it feels lovely to use. But really - it's true calling is as a razor stone. And it excels at that.

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EDIT... It may also not be the stone known as the 'Salmen's Hone', as that was described as a blue slate, by someone who knows about these things, and the differences. It is pretty definitely though the _"calcereous siltstone and gives results much like a Silkstone, superior to the rest of the Yellow Lake family...". _Which was a screen-shot quote from the late Neil Miller. I've had various 'normal' Yellow Lake stones, and this is certainly quite different, and matches the description exactly.

Perhaps then this stone might be better termed the: *Yellow Lake Silkstone.*


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## cotedupy (Feb 13, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> This is also Glanrafon, at least as far as I can tell. It's about 2 1/2 "x 5 1/2". I got it on the bay from a guy that said he bought it in England from a barber who told him it was a Fiddich River hone. Could have been a BS story, who knows?
> 
> The edges I get are very coticule like, skin friendly but not in the upper end of keen. The feed back reminds me of the last pass with the trowel on a concrete slab. Soft and smooth with fine sand in the back ground. On the lower end of the speed scale, I use the broken off corner as a rubber which speeds it up.



Ooh... very nice! I might have seen pics before over on B&B - it's a lovely looking stone.

It does certainly look like a Glanrafon, and your description is pretty spot on how mine is. Though I've never used a Fiddich, and they can look incredibly similar... here's a picture of someone else's stones; apparently the left and middle are Glanrafon, and the right is Fiddich River:






Yours is an uncommon size though for a GR, especially the extra width. A lot of the ones that have come up were sold by a particular Sheffield cutler and toolmaker (whose name escapes me atm) and were boxed 8x2s. Which is the size mine is, though it doesn't have an original box. Cool that yours is a bit wider!

That company probably sold them as 'Welsh Oilstones', according to an old catalogue. Which is interesting, as its also a name that was applied to the Idwal stone at various points.

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EDIT - William Marples was the Sheffield toolmaker who sold many of the Glanrafons people have come across. This picture is from a 1938 catalogue - the _'Best Welsh Oil Stones, in Polished Pine Case'_ is likely to be the GR I believe. Half or less of the price of Washitas.

It also actually shows something I mentioned to you and @stringer on the Washita thread recently - the No.2 grade 'Red Label' Washita. Though they clearly hadn't updated this catalogue for some time. As Pike had been bought by Norton five years previously, and a subsidiary company set up in the UK around the same time.


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## Desert Rat (Feb 13, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Here now is my favourite whetstone of all, for reasons that are as much personal, as the fact that it's also rather good...
> 
> When I went back to visit the UK over Christmas my 95 y/o grandmother had found an old stone of my grandfather's and set it aside for me. And it turned out to be rather good, and very interesting. It’s a very dark, very soft, fine grained slate, and a completely superb razor finisher.
> 
> ...


Kind of similar to this stone that I have been trying to place. I have heard it said that it isn't a silk stone, but I don't know. The general consensus on BB was a Thuri but I'm not so sure. The texture is that of a hard rubber bowling ball. Most of you probably don't remember them.

Pretty sure it was cut for razors, but it needs just a little more keen to satisfy me. I suspect that oil might give it the push that it needs but I have been reluctant to try it.










[url=https://flic.kr/p/2k1sWXJ]


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## cotedupy (Feb 13, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> Kind of similar to this stone that I have been trying to place. I have heard it said that it isn't a silk stone, but I don't know. The general consensus on BB was a Thuri but I'm not so sure. The texture is that of a hard rubber bowling ball. Most of you probably don't remember them.
> 
> Pretty sure it was cut for razors, but it needs just a little more keen to satisfy me. I suspect that oil might give it the push that it needs but I have been reluctant to try it.
> 
> ...



Ah yeah I saw your stone on B&B when I was reading up / researching about them yesterday. It does look fairly similar to mine, but then obviously things like this can all look pretty similar anyway from pictures. A couple of observations... 

If you don't think it's a Thuri then I think you're probably right - while my stone can finish basically at the level the level of a Thuri, it does feel different from any Thuri I've had. I don't think I'd confuse them.

Although it feels like silk (like lots of high grit stones), I think the name might have come from the surface patterns, which when wet look like slightly shimmery crumpled silk. Dunno that for certain, and it's quite difficult to take a picture of, but here goes:






A lot of the UK Silkstones also seem to have had quite distinctive X-shaped cross hatch saw marks. Here's the end of mine:


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## stringer (Feb 13, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Ah yeah I saw your stone on B&B when I was reading up / researching about them yesterday. It does look fairly similar to mine, but then obviously things like this can all look pretty similar anyway from pictures. A couple of observations...
> 
> If you don't think it's a Thuri then I think you're probably right - while my stone can finish basically at the level the level of a Thuri, it does feel different from any Thuri I've had. I don't think I'd confuse them.
> 
> ...


Great. I thought I had all my bases covered and now I learn that there is something called a silkstone that y'all have been holding out on.


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## cotedupy (Feb 13, 2022)

stringer said:


> Great. I thought I had all my bases covered and now I learn that there is something called a silkstone that y'all have been holding out on.



Haha! TBH I'd only heard of the term a few times, and didn't really know anything about them until yesterday, when I did a deep-dive into some old threads on SRP and B&B.

Worth trying to find if you can. They seem to be quite rare, but look out for that style box if the stones inside look very dark grey / black. Though Silkstones were also produced by other companies too, and branded as such. I don't believe these AB Salmen ones called themselves 'Silkstone'.

There's actually one of the same that I have on UK ebay right now, though it has a BIN of 75 quid. (Mine is also wider than they say this is, though I suspect they've got it wrong and it's actually 5cm.)


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## Desert Rat (Feb 13, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Ah yeah I saw your stone on B&B when I was reading up / researching about them yesterday. It does look fairly similar to mine, but then obviously things like this can all look pretty similar anyway from pictures. A couple of observations...
> 
> If you don't think it's a Thuri then I think you're probably right - while my stone can finish basically at the level the level of a Thuri, it does feel different from any Thuri I've had. I don't think I'd confuse them.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the pictures. I think not a match.


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## Desert Rat (Feb 14, 2022)

stringer said:


> Great. I thought I had all my bases covered and now I learn that there is something called a silkstone that y'all have been holding out on.


cotedupy is on pace to give us the run down on all these obscure UK hones by summer, it's a fun ride.


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## Desert Rat (Feb 14, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Ah yeah I saw your stone on B&B when I was reading up / researching about them yesterday. It does look fairly similar to mine, but then obviously things like this can all look pretty similar anyway from pictures. A couple of observations...
> 
> If you don't think it's a Thuri then I think you're probably right - while my stone can finish basically at the level the level of a Thuri, it does feel different from any Thuri I've had. I don't think I'd confuse them.
> 
> ...


I have seen similar cross hatch patterns, I have an unknown UK slate with them.


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## cotedupy (Feb 14, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> I have seen similar cross hatch patterns, I have an unknown UK slate with them.



Yeah com to think of it - it's probably not a particularly foolproof ID-ing method, as I imagine they would have just used the same saws to cut up all sort of stones.

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Here FWIW is what the regular kind of YL look like when dry. They're not a million miles away visually, but they are a bit lighter coloured. And quite different feeling:


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## Desert Rat (Feb 14, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Yeah com to think of it - it's probably not a particularly foolproof ID-ing method, as I imagine they would have just used the same saws to cut up all sort of stones.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


Not fool proof but one of the identifiers, so very useful information.

Here is the UK slate. Do you think it's a Yellow Lake?
It's not a bad stone stone at all, but it's unremarkable in every regard. A pre-finisher for razors. 
Reminds me of a roofing slate.



[url=https://flic.kr/p/2n3CuVx]


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## Skylar303 (Feb 14, 2022)

Man it seems like the UK has some of the prettiest stones I think anyways.

I picked up a lot of assorted stones. And this little slate(?) pocket hone came with it. Sits at a little over 3"x1.5", only 99grams. I haven't owned slate hones but it's definitely lighter than say a slate tile of same size. Feels like charcoal... And has a very high pitched ding. It looks like it was at least longer, not sure about width, as the other end is rather sloppily re-shaped. It's also stamped "V M A" on the one end. "VMA slate hones" brought up some weird results... 



While stalking this thread, and seeing a bunch of slate maybe one of you guys/gals would know.


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## bsfsu (Feb 14, 2022)

I'm wondering what this stone is. It's a slate and really hard. 1.5kg. 






I bought it with a hard SiC and a Thuringian so I think it was someone's 'set'. I think it's a finisher after the Thuringian as it is really hard. I need to lap it then have a go with a bit o steel to confirm the hardness.

[Edit; I lapped the stone and I think it's about 3000-6000. Not as hard as the Thuringian.]

I think it must have come from a bench block that was cut down at various stages over time as each sides cut marks are different.






















The origin and history of the 'black slates' seem to be less known about in the "extensive" research I have done on the subject (had a look on b&b). I would love to find out more about the slate stones.


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## Skylar303 (Feb 14, 2022)

Interesting stone, odd shape in terms of pretty square. I don't know much about them but learning ha. Are those black lines in the stone? If so those are some distinguishing features to it, and maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in.


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## cotedupy (Feb 14, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> Not fool proof but one of the identifiers, so very useful information.
> 
> Here is the UK slate. Do you think it's a Yellow Lake?
> It's not a bad stone stone at all, but it's unremarkable in every regard. A pre-finisher for razors.
> ...



Yep, I'd be fairly certain that's the 'regular' kind of AB Salmen Yellow Lake. Your description matches, and those look like the dimensions Salmen stones were most often cut to - i.e. quite a thin 8x2 (same as my black silkstone version).

The other stone I have that belonged to my grandfather is that type, though a thicker 6x2. I suspect they're probably best as tool stones, as they're a bit too fine and slow to be really good for kitchen knives, but not quite fine enough to finish a razor well. The normal kind my granddad kept in the shed, the silkstone one in the kitchen. So he did use that one for knives, though it's not a brilliant knife stone tbh - it's a razor stone.

Visual comparison of the two for your and others' reference (both dry):


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## Desert Rat (Feb 15, 2022)

Skylar303 said:


> Man it seems like the UK has some of the prettiest stones I think anyways.
> 
> I picked up a lot of assorted stones. And this little slate(?) pocket hone came with it. Sits at a little over 3"x1.5", only 99grams. I haven't owned slate hones but it's definitely lighter than say a slate tile of same size. Feels like charcoal... And has a very high pitched ding. It looks like it was at least longer, not sure about width, as the other end is rather sloppily re-shaped. It's also stamped "V M A" on the one end. "VMA slate hones" brought up some weird results...
> View attachment 165710
> ...


I think by the nature of the lettering it is a synthetic.


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## Skylar303 (Feb 15, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> I think by the nature of the lettering it is a synthetic.


Makes sense, as I've never seen a raised logo on any slates. Except some of the older razor hones, but I think those are synthetic also if not mistaken. Like I said it resembles charcoal more than say roofing or tile slate, which would make sense if synthetic. 

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

Hah I didn't want to put my foot in my mouth about your bench stone but my first hunch was llyn of some sort which I guess would be a yellow lake. But then again not having used or owned one I figured best to not say anything.


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## BoSharpens (Feb 15, 2022)

Not being into the history of stones, as I just use a few Arkansas stones, I find the discussions on KKF regarding properties of different natural stones fascinating.


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## cotedupy (Feb 15, 2022)

BoSharpens said:


> I just use a few Arkansas stones,



Nothing wrong with that! The strong reputation they have is well-deserved I think. Very few of these other stones will cut as quickly as comparable grit Arks / Washitas.

As you say though - it’s certainly interesting what else is out there .


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## cotedupy (Feb 15, 2022)

Skylar303 said:


> Man it seems like the UK has some of the prettiest stones I think anyways.
> 
> I picked up a lot of assorted stones. And this little slate(?) pocket hone came with it. Sits at a little over 3"x1.5", only 99grams. I haven't owned slate hones but it's definitely lighter than say a slate tile of same size. Feels like charcoal... And has a very high pitched ding. It looks like it was at least longer, not sure about width, as the other end is rather sloppily re-shaped. It's also stamped "V M A" on the one end. "VMA slate hones" brought up some weird results...
> View attachment 165710
> ...



Ah I hadn’t clocked the raised lettering on it - as DR said it must be synthetic. Though looks an interesting one!


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## bsfsu (Feb 16, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Ah I hadn’t clocked the raised lettering on it - as DR said it must be synthetic. Though looks an interesting one!


I've recently got a couple of those embossed hones, a "Celebrated” and the best name "Boss Barber".

I have just sharpened a machine blade and used one in my progression. It was quite nice to use. I need to try it out for finishing on a knife. It could be a nice travel stone?


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## stringer (Feb 16, 2022)

BoSharpens said:


> Not being into the history of stones, as I just use a few Arkansas stones, I find the discussions on KKF regarding properties of different natural stones fascinating.



Arks are some of the best. Just ordered me a brand spanking new Dan's surgical black.


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## cotedupy (Feb 16, 2022)

[The second half of this post has been edited following a very helpful email reply from Roger at Inigo Jones Slate Works.]

Let's have a look at what I think is the only other UK stone type I have at the moment - the rather pretty aqua-coloured stone in the first post, that I said might possibly be a type of Glanrafon:






Since then I managed to score myself a Glanrafon, as talked about above, and in use the stones _are _similar enough that they could be variations of the same, though they are a little different. On getting back to Australia I discovered a couple of interesting things: Firstly I had my USB scope again so looked at them together. And though similar, I don't believe this stone to be precisely a type of Glanrafon.

The second, perhaps _more _interesting, thing I discovered about this stone... was that I already had one:






The smaller stone was a find on Australian ebay find in the middle of last year. At the time I asked a bit about it, but no one seemed to know what it was, and after that I didn't pay much attention to it, as I hadn't then started honing razors, and it was too hard and fine to be much use on a knife.

And I hadn't really noticed the patterns and colour on the stone as they're more noticeable when wet, and less pronounced on the smaller version. This is what they look like dry:






Both stones also have a distinctive rippled pattern on one side, that looks a little like running water:






A combination of hunch, and having a bit of experience with this kind of thing meant I was relatively certain that, like the Glanrafon, these stones were Welsh. There are number of historic stone quarries in a relatively small area of Snowdonia in northern wales. These were largely for slate, though the novaculite Idwal stone is from the same area and in fact displays some slate-like qualities to it, suggesting to me it was formed though metamorphosis of an original similar slate to this and the Glanrafon stone. Others from this area are the various types of Llyn Melynllyn or Yellow Lake Oilstone, the legendary and mysterious Cutler's Green, and also the Dragon's Tongue which as far as I know is the only UK natural whetstone still being produced by a commercial company.

And it was the latter who I emailed earlier today with some pictures, and were able to shed some light on the origins of this beautiful blue-green stone:

_'The Greener stones come from the Nantlle Valley where there used to be several quarries operating but now all closed, one quarry was called the Dorothea quarry and that slate might have come from there.'_

The Nantlle Valley (Dyffryn Nantlle) is in the west of Snowdonia National Park, set around a lake of the same name - Llyn Nantlle. What was particularly interesting about this news is that the Glanrafon quarry lies just to the north of the small village of Rhyd-Ddu, which is at one end of the Dyffryn Nantlle. So if this blue-green stone isn't actually the same exact stone as the Glanrafon, then it is at least the same kind rock, and likewise found in the immediate vicinity around Lake Nantlle. I'm going to call this stone the *Llyn Nantlle.**

The Llyn Nantlle is a very hard, fine-grained slate, finishing considerably north of 10k. Like the Glanrafon it's a slow stone, thought perhaps the LN is marginally quicker, as well as being a touch finer. In terms of knives it would be too fine and hard for anything but the final finishes of a yanagiba, or deburring a coarser finish. It will not polish a bevel well.

Despite this the LN is among my very favourite stones: It's very pretty to my eye. It's rare - I only know of one other person who has this stone. And it's a superb razor finisher - right up there with the best Idwals and Charnley Forests in terms of UK razor hones.

---

* As I think I pointed out before on this thread - Welsh names like this can be rather difficult for a lot of people (myself included) to pronounce properly, as it involves sounds that are not used in the English language. But if you wanna give it a go... this is how to say Llyn and Nantlle in Cymraeg.


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## cotedupy (Feb 17, 2022)

.


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## pentryumf (Mar 17, 2022)

Bravo on The investigative work,
It’s evident you enjoy the mineralogical interaction of stone and steel. 
If the stone you are calling Llyn Nantlle is in fact a fine grain slate, possibly from Western Europe(Wales, Ireland, Scotland). Is it reasonable to say these are from an extinct quarry or small defunct mine? Hence the rarity.

Mostly all slate hones I use are tested with a high carbon knife so that I can inspect the bevel and polish over a longer edge. This has the added benefit of feeling the stones grain structure with long sweeping strokes, also the audible feedback improves.

Agreed, it takes longer to hone the knife versus the razor.

I am increasingly loving slate hones for final stage polishing. Here I was thinking all hones had to be exorbitantly expensive.


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## cotedupy (Mar 17, 2022)

pentryumf said:


> If the stone you are calling Llyn Nantlle is in fact a fine grain slate, possibly from Western Europe(Wales, Ireland, Scotland). Is it reasonable to say these are from an extinct quarry or small defunct mine? Hence the rarity.



In a word... yes. 

The reason I emailed Inigo Jones is that they're one of the only real commercial companies in the UK who still cut and produce whetstones (from Aberfelleni slate). And one of their directors is a guy called Roger, who I'd heard was very knowledgable about this kind of thing, he's in his mid 70s now and has worked in the Welsh slate industry for over half a century. And immediately ID-ed the stone as being from the Nantlle Valley.

There are no operational slate quarries remaining in the Nantlle valley. The Dorothea quarry for instance is now underwater, like many old quarries in the UK. The other reasonable size quarry there was called Pen-yr-Orsedd, but at one time or another there were around 15 or so others. Though the Nantlle Valley isn't big - maybe six miles long, so many of them are likely to have been nothing more than small holes in the ground that whoever owned the land dug some rock out of to build a house. If you go looking for a '_Quarry (dis.)' _as marked on a UK Ordinance Survey map - 9 times out of 10 you won't find anything!

Long story short... I think the stone is likely to be from the Dorothea quarry.


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## cotedupy (Mar 17, 2022)

pentryumf said:


> Bravo on The investigative work,
> It’s evident you enjoy the mineralogical interaction of stone and steel.
> If the stone you are calling Llyn Nantlle is in fact a fine grain slate, possibly from Western Europe(Wales, Ireland, Scotland). Is it reasonable to say these are from an extinct quarry or small defunct mine? Hence the rarity.
> 
> ...



Definitely post some pics and thoughts of your stone when you have a mo. As I said - I think it looks likely to be a LN.


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## pentryumf (Mar 18, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Definitely post some pics and thoughts of your stone when you have a mo. As I said - I think it looks likely to be a LN.


Well, after reading a lot of Cotedupy’s writings, I went on a mission to find some old honing stones. Suffice to say I went a bit overboard. However there were a few pleasant surprises such as these.
first up: an English eBay find that the seller said was from an old hoarder in north western uk around Liverpool. This was quite dirty when I put my bid in. The owner just stated unknown oil stone, so it was a gamble but at 15£ worth it. The stone was glued into a wood box and upon removal a few slivers broke off, definitely slate.I am doing a SG test this weekend. It is quite nice on a razor, silky as nothing else.
No river pattern like Cotedupy so called LN.

Next up was a open suggestion/ critique from Cotedupy, a Norton/Pike India, 2 sided stone(20$usd). Damn, the critique was spot on, hard and affordable. I used it to touch up a ZDP petty, it was too easy to refresh, so it’s got my vote.
Last up is an unknown, I believe a novaculite. Quite hard but very fine. I need to test it some more but so far it’s a great pre-finisher for knives. A steal at 30$.


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## cotedupy (Mar 18, 2022)

pentryumf said:


> Well, after reading a lot of Cotedupy’s writings, I went on a mission to find some old honing stones. Suffice to say I went a bit overboard. However there were a few pleasant surprises such as these.
> first up: an English eBay find that the seller said was from an old hoarder in north western uk around Liverpool. This was quite dirty when I put my bid in. The owner just stated unknown oil stone, so it was a gamble but at 15£ worth it. The stone was glued into a wood box and upon removal a few slivers broke off, definitely slate.I am doing a SG test this weekend. It is quite nice on a razor, silky as nothing else.
> No river pattern like Cotedupy so called LN.
> 
> ...




Yep. I'm basically certain that's a Nantlle stone, especially seeing it's come from Liverpool, so bang next door to northern Wales. (I thought it would have been a little odd to find in Canada!) The thing on the sides is only really noticeable on one of mine, and the other person who has one can't see on his either. Surface-wise yours is a dead match from that pic. Can't believe I missed it on UK ebay!

I've found them to be very competent razor finishers, though quite slow. I often start with a slurry raised with something else.

Glad you liked the India combi too! Really superb stones I think .


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## cotedupy (Apr 4, 2022)

Here are another few types of UK stones acquired recently...

Firstly a very lucky score at a local auction which I've posted elsewhere already, but here for the sake of completeness is the *Water of Ayr *stone:







Or rather in this case the Water of Ayr x Tam O'Shanter Dual Hone. The Dual Hones were combination stones produced and came in several varieties; Dalmore Yellow (coarse) x Tam O'Shanter (fine), Dalmore Blue (med) x Tam O'Shanter, and Tam O'Shanter x Water of Ayr (Extra Fine). Mine is the latter, here's the Tam side:







The Water of Ayr stone is a blue-grey slate type affair, although it may not exactly be a slate, or at least only just. It came largely from two quarries: Enterkine and Meikledale, the latter being finer and characterised often by darker spots or splodges on the surface, whereas Enterkine stones seem more uniform in terms of pattern. The stones used on the Dual Hones apparently came from the Meikledale quarry.

Which makes sense because this stone is a _very _fine, razor-finishing stone. Not desperately hard and reminds me in feel and effect quite strongly of Thuringian stones, though it's a little quicker. Thuris are not slow stones themselves for their level, but the WoA is really quite fast. A completely superb stone, though unfortunately somewhat rare, and expensive normally.


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## cotedupy (Apr 4, 2022)

Next up, one that I've mentioned above, which I believe is the only readily available natural whetstone still produced by a commercial company: the Welsh *Dragon's Tongue *whetstone from Inigo Jones & Co.







The DT stone is a dark blue-grey slate from Aberllefenni in Gwynedd at the south of Snowdonia, and tbh I can see why it's still in production. They describe it as a 'Mica Slate', but given its relative speed for a slate I'd say this is also quite silica-heavy too, and will give a nice fine knife edge with some bite still. Depending on surface finish I'd guess this could roll from about 6 to 9k ish.

I believe the stones are cut to order so any size can be requested, but the standard 8x2" stone on the website will set you back about £20, and that's looking like a bit of a bargain from where I'm sitting!


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## cotedupy (Apr 4, 2022)

In a post above I mentioned a distinction between the 'normal' type of Tam O'Shanter stone (usually grey, but also other colours sometimes), and the finer 'White Tam O'Shanter'. But I'm afraid that isn't quite the whole story...

Because as well as the TOS and the W.TOS, there was one further designation: the F.TOS or 'Fine Tam O'Shanter':







These don't seem to come up very often so I can't really distil any received wisdom here, these are just my impressions of the one I found recently. It feels like nothing so much as... a fine Tam O'Shanter. This is probably in the region of the W.TOS in terms of grit - I'd put it at around 10 - 12k, it's softer than any other Tam I've had, and probably a little faster too. Though they're never that quick, and it can make them tricky to use for knives. It finishes a razor nicely, and polishes a knife very well indeed. Visually it's indistinguishable from a normal TOS.







---

I love Tams (and this one in particular) though I'm not entirely sure why. They're often difficult and recalcitrant stones to use; raising burrs can be nigh-on impossible, but the edge might still be magic, and while they _can _polish with the best of them, they won't do if you, or they, are not in the mood.

They are perhaps... a brilliant, but dour, Scottish jnat.


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## natto (Apr 6, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> which I believe is the only readily available natural whetstone


got a link? Inigojones mentions sharpening stones, but the link leads into the dark.


If you would like to purchase a Dragon’s Tongue for your self see here.

got it: 
*Honing Stones*

But this second hand stuff is much more interesting.


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## pentryumf (Apr 6, 2022)

Found recently and cannot determine if this is a welsh slate. Sold as an unknown natural.
It’s quite fine and puts a great polish on high carbon steel.

it’s a large one which is nice.
It was bundled with a beautiful washita.
The one thing I will say with the oil stones is, that oxidization of the oil really makes it difficult to clean, to see the stone as it would have been when it was new.


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## cotedupy (Apr 8, 2022)

pentryumf said:


> Found recently and cannot determine if this is a welsh slate. Sold as an unknown natural.
> It’s quite fine and puts a great polish on high carbon steel.
> 
> it’s a large one which is nice.
> ...



Lovely looking stone! It's an Idwal, 99% sure on that.


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## bsfsu (Apr 21, 2022)

I found some options about the various stones we have been discussing.


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## Desert Rat (Apr 22, 2022)

I hope one of you guys snagged that Fiddich river that went by recently on the auction site. I seen it, book marked, and then forgot to bid.


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## cotedupy (Apr 23, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> I hope one of you guys snagged that Fiddich river that went by recently on the auction site. I seen it, book marked, and then forgot to bid.



A Fiddich?! Oh I didn't see that, got a link? . There was a nice looking Glanrafon as part of a lot that included what looked like 3, possibly four old Washitas as well. Though it was ending at 4am here, and I got outbid at the end.






---

I am hopefully getting a Fiddich in a swap with someone on B&B soon though. Which'll be pretty much the last of the UK stones I've been looking for .


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## cotedupy (Apr 23, 2022)

bsfsu said:


> I found some options about the various stones we have been discussing.View attachment 176068
> View attachment 176069




This is excellent, thank you! Lots of interesting things here, but a few things that caught the eye first...

The coarser, faster Grecian stone is regarded more highly than the more normal, finer type of Idwal or Welsh Oilstone.

Likewise I imagine the 'higher quality' version of Charnleys described here is a faster and coarser stone than the type people like for razors nowadays. I think probably the kind of of very old stone I sold to an example of to @captaincaed earlier this year.

The 'Canada Oilstone' in this context is likely to be the Hindostan stone.

The grey / white / black variations of the Turkish stone existed back in the day. I had thought this was a very recent distinction people made.

They were still mixing up coticules and calling them German! I wonder where this idea came from? Richard Knight? Or maybe earlier...?


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## Desert Rat (Apr 23, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> A Fiddich?! Oh I didn't see that, got a link? . There was a nice looking Glanrafon as part of a lot that included what looked like 3, possibly four old Washitas as well. Though it was ending at 4am here, and I got outbid at the end.
> 
> View attachment 176277
> 
> ...


That was the one. Glanrafon you say? Well I'm not so disappointed now...


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## cotedupy (Apr 23, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> That was the one. Glanrafon you say? Well I'm not so disappointed now...



Yeah that was a GR, which I think you have already anyway (?)

I would've gone higher for a Fiddich as I don't have one yet, but given there are a few Washitas in there too I still think it looks like a good pickup for whoever got it at 130 GBP. I expect someone over on B&B will be a happy bunny!


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## Desert Rat (Apr 24, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Yeah that was a GR, which I think you have already anyway (?)
> 
> I would've gone higher for a Fiddich as I don't have one yet, but given there are a few Washitas in there too I still think it looks like a good pickup for whoever got it at 130 GBP. I expect someone over on B&B will be a happy bunny!


I need to study more pictures of the two. I probably wouldn't have been too disappointed with that group though. It's the shipping that is a killer for us in the USA.


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## cotedupy (Apr 27, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> I need to study more pictures of the two. I probably wouldn't have been too disappointed with that group though. It's the shipping that is a killer for us in the USA.




Well this was a quick turnaround eh! 















natural sharpening stone/oilstone/honing stone/Glanrafon sharpening stone | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for natural sharpening stone/oilstone/honing stone/Glanrafon sharpening stone at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



www.ebay.co.uk


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## pentryumf (May 21, 2022)

This showed up a few weeks ago, been trying to degrease and determine its character.

Quite hard, similar to my idwal, but more drag. Used with water it finishes above 8kish. With oil more like 10-12k.

Very pretty. A touch too small but still great for 12$.

It’s not an ideal knife stone but I am a fan of punishment so.....Nakiri time.

I believe it’s a novaculite. 

[edit]. Well not a novaculite, it muds up quite a bit with an atoma. Slick dark mud, quite smooth, imparts a nice bite.
It could be a slate given the drag that is present. I just did not notice any cleave in the stone.


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## cotedupy (May 22, 2022)

pentryumf said:


> This showed up a few weeks ago, been trying to degrease and determine its character.
> 
> Quite hard, similar to my idwal, but more drag. Used with water it finishes above 8kish. With oil more like 10-12k.
> 
> ...




Interesting. Obviously it looks kinda like a slate, visually that’d be my guess anyway, possibly Aberfelleni if it's come from the UK. And the range you say would fit too. But that’d be quite easy to tell apart from a novaculite when you lap it. Also - a freshly lapped novaculite will be far quicker than a slate.

So... no idea! If it is novaculite then I don’t know another like it.

How does it compare to the Nantlle?


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## Legion74 (May 28, 2022)

I’ve got a few I can post. 












Glanrafon, Idwal, Charnley


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## cotedupy (May 28, 2022)

Legion74 said:


> I’ve got a few I can post.
> 
> View attachment 181755
> View attachment 181756
> ...




Aus certainly is a good hunting ground for some of these more recherche UK stones. Still can't believe you found that stunner of a GR!

And actually one of my Nantlles came from VIC too. I suspect that back in the day they were probably sold as the same thing.


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## captaincaed (May 28, 2022)

Legion74 said:


> I’ve got a few I can post.
> 
> View attachment 181755
> View attachment 181756
> ...


Such a great set


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## Legion74 (May 29, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Aus certainly is a good hunting ground for some of these more recherche UK stones. Still can't believe you found that stunner of a GR!
> 
> And actually one of my Nantlles came from VIC too. I suspect that back in the day they were probably sold as the same thing.


The GR was pure luck. I could tell it was natural, but it was so covered in oil and muck I had no idea what it was.

Learning as I go.


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## Legion74 (May 29, 2022)

I should post what it looked like when I bought it. Pig in a poke.


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## cotedupy (Jun 17, 2022)

Ok then here we go, the big one... at long last, here is the impossibly-rare-and-beautiful *Fiddich River Stone*:












The exact origins of this stone are still something of a mystery, probably not helped by the fact that there are so few in existence - I know of no more than a handful of others out there. The name was given to it following research a few years back some of the usual suspects which concluded this it was likely the same stone described in an old text. The sum total of the information being that on the River Fiddich: 'Laminated marble from the river bed was used to make hones and whetstones'.

The description 'marble' is something of a red herring here, as you can't sharpen on marble - it's a carbonate and so not hard enough to abrade steel. Though you can see the confusion; the stone does look quite like marble, and it is laminated. But what it actually is I think is a kind of lightly metamorphosed slate, or slightly fissile argillite.

---

So what's it like?

Well, when I first tried this yesterday I was all prepared to come here and say it was a bit of style over substance, and not to worry too much about it being effectively un-buyable. In a similar vein to my own opinion on some of the other very pretty but rare things on this thread, like the Glanrafon and Moughton stones. But unfortunately in this instance I can't, because it's completely superb...

I had also been expecting it act quite similarly to the Glanrafon as they can bear striking resemblance, and don't feel dissimilar to the touch. But in use they're wildly different, and it's because the Fiddich stone is softer than the very hard Glanrafon, and the way that it cut's on it's slurry is _absolutely gorgeous._ It doesn't self slurry, it's still a hard-ish stone so you need to use something to raise mud, just that the way it works when you have is lovely. The stone will finish a razor very happily and is quite easy to use for that, no special skill or trickery required. But what really sets it apart is this:







On slurry this stone is fast as f***. Like a coticule or very quick jnat, both which it reminds me of quite a lot actually. And that speed means that it can also be used to sharpen a kitchen knife while still retaining some teeth and not over-polishing the edge.

It's a lovely feeling stone to use, with the slurry breaking down and gradually becoming finer. And that means it can also do this, leaving beautiful dark, hazy jigane and high contrast to a bright, near-mirror hagane:













---

Any stone that will do two these three things is pretty uncommon, but I don't know of anything else that does all of; razor honing, knife sharpening, and san-mai polishing with quite such accomplishment and ease as the Fiddich River Stone.

(Sorry! )


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## cotedupy (Jun 28, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> This is also Glanrafon, at least as far as I can tell. It's about 2 1/2 "x 5 1/2". I got it on the bay from a guy that said he bought it in England from a barber who told him it was a Fiddich River hone. Could have been a BS story, who knows?
> 
> The edges I get are very coticule like, skin friendly but not in the upper end of keen. The feed back reminds me of the last pass with the trowel on a concrete slab. Soft and smooth with fine sand in the back ground. On the lower end of the speed scale, I use the broken off corner as a rubber which speeds it up.




I'm borrowing this stone on the right atm from @Legion74, the one he posted above:







A quite different stone from mine on the left, and very clearly the same thing as yours. It's only now that I've really understood the thing you've talked about in terms of the very distinctive feel, whereas my stone has much harder, more dead and sullen feedback. I've managed to get a good razor edge off his stone, and interestingly also - a good knife edge when worked with a bit of atoma mud, which my one can't do at all.

It's certainly still a bit different from the 'Fiddich River' above, but it's a lot closer to the FR than my 'Glanrafon' is.

(I didn't say this above by the look of it, but if I was a betting man - I would say that I think the 'Fiddich River Stone' is probably more likely to be Welsh than Scottish. No more than a hunch, but that'd be my inkling.)


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## cotedupy (Sep 21, 2022)

Bought a cheap, dished-on-both-sides ebay stone recently, on the basis that it was almost certainly a thin bit of Idwal of Charnley. But soon as I started lapping something else, even more exciting popped out.

This is my thrid Nantlle Valley stone, which I've now cut the end off to make a 7x2 + nagura. Lovely razor stone, not so much for knives.


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## deltaplex (Sep 21, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Bought a cheap, dished-on-both-sides ebay stone recently, on the basis that it was almost certainly a thin bit of Idwal of Charnley. But soon as I started lapping something else, even more exciting popped out.
> 
> This is my thrid Nantlle Valley stone, which I've now cut the end off to make a 7x2 + nagura. Lovely razor stone, not so much for knives.
> 
> ...


How useful do you find having a tomo for these kinds of stones?


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## cotedupy (Sep 21, 2022)

deltaplex said:


> How useful do you find having a tomo for these kinds of stones?




Umm... a ‘little bit’ useful.

It’s quite a similar affair to a tomo on a hard jnat. I.e. not really raising much slurry, but doing just enough for fine razor finishing. Though you’d have to use a softer/coarser nagura to get it really cutting properly.


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## simona (Sep 22, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Bought a cheap, dished-on-both-sides ebay stone recently, on the basis that it was almost certainly a thin bit of Idwal of Charnley. But soon as I started lapping something else, even more exciting popped out.
> 
> This is my thrid Nantlle Valley stone, which I've now cut the end off to make a 7x2 + nagura. Lovely razor stone, not so much for knives.
> 
> ...


Nice looking stone. Out of curiosity, what did you use to cut it? Thanks.


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## cotedupy (Sep 22, 2022)

simona said:


> Nice looking stone. Out of curiosity, what did you use to cut it? Thanks.




I just used a small hand saw. Although the stone is extremely hard under a knife, it is a slate so it is still possible to do it like that.

Hardness in stones is a funny thing, and something can be hard in different ways. I'm not an expert on the physics of all this, but you can get stones that are hard in some ways and soft in others, depending on how and what you're using to cut or abrade them.


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## Skylar303 (Sep 22, 2022)

Like a diamond. Hardest out there, but bad crush resistance.


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## simona (Sep 23, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I just used a small hand saw. Although the stone is extremely hard under a knife, it is a slate so it is still possible to do it like that.
> 
> Hardness in stones is a funny thing, and something can be hard in different ways. I'm not an expert on the physics of all this, but you can get stones that are hard in some ways and soft in others, depending on how and what you're using to cut or abrade them.


Thanks


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## Mathias Z. (Dec 18, 2022)

stringer said:


> What do you reckon this beast is?



Looks like a turkey stone to me. What is the sound when sharpening a knife on it? Is it ultra fast and has a crunchy sound?


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## stringer (Dec 18, 2022)

Mathias Z. said:


> Looks like a turkey stone to me. What is the sound when sharpening a knife on it? Is it ultra fast and has a crunchy sound?


It ended up being an ancient washita. It has since moved on to a woodworker friend of mine.


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## bsfsu (Dec 18, 2022)

I was given a chunk of Welsh snakeskin slate (I think?), not really big enough to sharpen on (though I have).
Apparently it was used in stone polishing but the artist that gave it to me said in the 'olden days' it was also used for tool sharpening.


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## Legion74 (Dec 19, 2022)

bsfsu said:


> I was given a chunk of Welsh snakeskin slate (I think?), not really big enough to sharpen on (though I have).
> Apparently it was used in stone polishing but the artist that gave it to me said in the 'olden days' it was also used for tool sharpening.


Looks like Scottish Tam O Shanter stone, which was sometimes known as "Snakestone".


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## cotedupy (Tuesday at 1:46 PM)

I was reminded earlier of a small stone I sent @stringer in a swap a while back, which I said at the time I thought was an Idwal, but might even be a Charnley. There was just something a little bit different about it compared to normal Idwal stones.







And I've since discovered what that difference is, so here's a post is about the *Grecian Hone*.

The stones that we now call 'Llyn Idwal' almost certainly originated from a number of different quarries across northern Wales. There is a quarry at Llyn Idwal, but also a smaller one at Llyn Melynllyn with same type of stone, as well as at Penrihw, and probably elsewhere too. At the moment we don't know enough about the rock from these various locations to be able to distinguish between them as subcategories of Idwal stone*, but one that we probably can is the 'Grecian Hone'.

The name has been used for some time, at least since the mid c.19th, and often synonymously with Llyn Idwal. But one company in particular - James Howarth and Sons - sold labelled Grecian Hones, made from a quite a particular type of stone. And recently I bought myself one to try to understand a bit more. In the picture below the small stone on the top is the labelled Grecian Hone, the second is also a Grecian (unlabelled), while the bottom three are more 'normal' types of Llyn Idwal.







Though the differences are small, the Grecian stones are distinct both visually and in use. The patterns on them have a wispy, smoke-like appearance and look as though they're within the stone rather than on the surface, more visible at some angles than others.





Your browser is not able to display this video.






In use the Grecian Hones feel softer and nicer, less hard and glassy than some Idwals, more like a Charnley Forest stone. They're relatively fast, and not as fine as the LI average, which makes them excellent for fine knife edges but perhaps less good for razors.

I now have three of these stones, and I must say I really rather like them. Certainly worth looking out for.












---


* Though it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to find out more - Snowdonia is a national park, the quarries are accessible to the public. Watch this space in the future...


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## stringer (Tuesday at 4:42 PM)

cotedupy said:


> I was reminded earlier of a small stone I sent @stringer in a swap a while back, which I said at the time that I thought it was an Idwal, but might even be a Charnley. There was just something a little bit different about it compared to normal Idwal stones.
> 
> View attachment 218793
> 
> ...


I haven't tried any other Llyn Idwal but I love that Grecian Hone. It has a permanent place in my knife drawer at home for touchups. Only other permanent resident is an aizu. And I have a lot of kit. 






Here is a beauty shot.


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## Legion74 (Tuesday at 6:58 PM)

I suppose I might post a few recent acquisitions. 

Two Charnley’s and a Idwal.


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## captaincaed (Wednesday at 1:43 AM)

Mystery nubbin


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## Martyn (Wednesday at 2:36 AM)

captaincaed said:


> View attachment 218916
> Mystery nubbin


thats a fiddich river isn't it? @cotedupy


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## Legion74 (Wednesday at 3:47 AM)

Martyn said:


> thats a fiddich river isn't it? @cotedupy


Looks like one. If it's not I wouldn't have a clue what it might be. Looks really cool though.


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## cotedupy (Wednesday at 7:25 AM)

Martyn said:


> thats a fiddich river isn't it? @cotedupy




That's what I thought originally, though I'd be much less sure after that most recent pic above, now it's all cleaned up properly.

What do you reckon @Rideon66...?


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## cotedupy (Wednesday at 7:36 AM)

stringer said:


> I haven't tried any other Llyn Idwal but I love that Grecian Hone. It has a permanent place in my knife drawer at home for touchups. Only other permanent resident is an aizu. And I have a lot of kit.
> 
> View attachment 218836
> 
> ...




Cool!

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would've been a James Howarth and Sons Grecian Hone. My labelled one is a slip as well and there are a fair few visual similarities here I think. Nice to know I sent you something a little bit unusual, and that you rate this type of stone as highly as I do.


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## Rideon66 (Wednesday at 8:24 AM)

cotedupy said:


> That's what I thought originally, though I'd be much less sure after that most recent pic above, now it's all cleaned up properly.
> 
> What do you reckon @Rideon66...?


So I have wondered about this one in the past and cleaned up in your pic reminds me more of a Novaculite. What did the slurry look like? It could also be like a Glanrafon stone. Either Glanrafon or Fiddich would have a pasty almost clay like slurry green to grey-ish.


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## captaincaed (Wednesday at 4:36 PM)

A little thin, but here it is. The pale parts of the stone are translucent, but I'm using my phone light so hard to show.


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## Rideon66 (Wednesday at 6:57 PM)

Yeah I don't think Fiddich if there is translucent area.


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## captaincaed (Wednesday at 7:48 PM)

Ok rats. Well thank you! Guess I need to keep researching, or just try it on a razor and see what happens


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## Rideon66 (Wednesday at 8:02 PM)

Give it a try it may surprise you.


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## Rideon66 (Wednesday at 8:37 PM)

One other question on the stone. How hard is it to slurry?


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## captaincaed (Wednesday at 8:42 PM)

Honestly it feels pretty smooth and nice. It's not crazy hard like an Ark, much more similar to a harder coticule. Not soft per se but pretty pleasant, smooth and easy. 

Oli convinced me to take SG tonight, so that'll be one more data point.


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## Rideon66 (Wednesday at 10:00 PM)

captaincaed said:


> Honestly it feels pretty smooth and nice. It's not crazy hard like an Ark, much more similar to a harder coticule. Not soft per se but pretty pleasant, smooth and easy.
> 
> Oli convinced me to take SG tonight, so that'll be one more data point.


So that is why I asked the Fiddich has much more of a coti type hardness feel. Almost like someone mixed a coti, thuri and jnat together really. Glanrafon feels more synthetic and hard like a shapton 1.5k, but finishes more like a Charnley Forest stone and is very difficult to slurry. SG may give us a better idea since we have data on two which are pretty much the same and I had both of those plus I have 2 Glanrafon so I have used those 4 and when in hand the feel is easy to tell them apart.


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## cotedupy (Yesterday at 11:56 AM)

After all this chat I had to dig mine out today for a spin.

Worked with a raised slurry this is such a good stone; beautiful, fine and grippy edges that zing through paper towel, and really quite a spiffy kasumi, especially considering how difficult Mazakis are to polish normally. Looks way better than my Maruo Shiro Suita does on this knife.


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## Rideon66 (Yesterday at 3:02 PM)

cotedupy said:


> After all this chat I had to dig mine out today for a spin.
> 
> Worked with a raised slurry this is such a good stone; beautiful, fine and grippy edges that zing through paper towel, and really quite a spiffy kasumi, especially considering how difficult Mazakis are to polish normally. Looks way better than my Maruo Shiro Suita does on this knife.
> 
> ...


That is a nice looking knife there. Pretty stone too! I have to ask are your paper towels one ply? Mine look way thicker and softer. I use bounty. Now I have to try one on my FR stone.


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## cotedupy (Yesterday at 3:26 PM)

Rideon66 said:


> That is a nice looking knife there. Pretty stone too! I have to ask are your paper towels one ply? Mine look way thicker and softer. I use bounty. Now I have to try one on my FR stone.




Haha... I have zero idea how many plys my kitchen roll has I'm afraid, I just buy whatever's cheapest in the shop, which means it's usually a fairly thin and soft 'own brand' type affair. Slightly thicker stuff should be a bit easier to cut cos it's firmer, with more resistance (normal force).

Definitely give your FR a go on some knives. I think you said yours was a little finer than this one(?), so make sure to work off a thick-ish slurry, and should be a really nice edge.


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## Rideon66 (Yesterday at 4:03 PM)

cotedupy said:


> Haha... I have zero idea how many plys my kitchen roll has I'm afraid, I just buy whatever's cheapest in the shop, which means it's usually a fairly thin and soft 'own brand' type affair. Slightly thicker stuff should be a bit easier to cut cos it's firmer, with more resistance (normal force).
> 
> Definitely give your FR a go on some knives. I think you said yours was a little finer than this one(?), so make sure to work off a thick-ish slurry, and should be a really nice edge.


No the thicker stuff I buy is also fluffier so more difficult than the thin stuff here anyway. It is like trying to cut a cotton ball.


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## cotedupy (Yesterday at 4:38 PM)

Rideon66 said:


> No the thicker stuff I buy is also fluffier so more difficult than the thin stuff here anyway. It is like trying to cut a cotton ball.




I'll splash out on some multi-ply Bounty next time I'm at the supermarket and report back.

Or might just be something in the water...?


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