# Thoughts on Demi-Glace



## Smurfmacaw (Jan 30, 2016)

Do you guys make your demi the old fashioned way or just reduce a brown stock?

I've been playing around with making classical sauces and have made a number of sauces lately that I really like. Robert sauce last night really wow'd my wife.

I was wondering if you guys go the full route in making a demi-glace (brown stock, espagnole, reduce equal portions of brown stock and espagnole) or do you just reduce a brown stock. What would be your reason for going either way?


Mike


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## wellminded1 (Jan 30, 2016)

Myself personally in my professional kitchen do not go the full classic route, not that they are not extremely good but classic sauces are often heavy and overwhelming on the palate. I personally use reductions, usually a 60% veal to 40% duck. I find this ratio is not to heavy and lingering in the mouth. Also the expense and cost of making classic sauces seem to be a little heftier than some more modern sauces. This is my own personal thoughts anyway.


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 30, 2016)

My general impression is that demi glace as originally codified is usually not employed in most kitchens, but I don't know much other than my city. There's alot of literature out there bashing many of the mother sauces though. I think you will find most kitchens do a "semi-demi" if you google it. Also you should say "sAUce roberrrrr" like a suave frenchman to impress your SO.


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## Smurfmacaw (Jan 30, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> . Also you should say "sAUce roberrrrr" like a suave frenchman to impress your SO.



Lol, oddly that's exactly what I did. Not so sure she though I was suddenly Rico Suave, but the sauce was really really good and worth the effort. I've gotten to making a stock of some sort pretty frequently and it's improved my results dramatically over store bought.

I'll have to give the duck/veal combo a try although veal bones are pricey here. I'll have to check into a good source. Duck bones lol, wife won't eat duck so not sure where I can get them but I can probably just use bonewerks or some other quality prepared duck glace. I've always just reduced stock and called it demi-glace but I thought I'd try the classical way. I agree it's a bit heavier, probably due to the roux in the espagnole. Also a good excuse to use the chinois......(and yes, I pronounce it Sheen-wa )


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## marc4pt0 (Jan 30, 2016)

Sauce Robert (aka Bob Sauce) is still one of my favorites. 
I still use demi in my kitchens. Love it. However, I haven't used the roast-your-bones method in a long, Long time. It makes it too heavy and messes with callogen collection.


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## Lucretia (Jan 31, 2016)

If you don't want to use veal bones, Jacques Pepin has a version using chicken bones and gizzards.


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## ThEoRy (Jan 31, 2016)

I didn't know it was possible to make veal demi without roasting bones. Pro tip, add split calves feet to the veal stock while reducing to add some extra gelatin.


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## marc4pt0 (Jan 31, 2016)

I've used split pig trotters for the same reason. Super cheap way to bump up callogen. 

Rick, try a round without roasting. I do the initial first run, strain and then add more water for reremoulage.
I use simple mire poix with garlic, tomato paste and any tomato scraps we might have. Obviously strain through chinois every time you switch vessels. 
When the first and second runs are done I combine them and reduce. At this point the stock only becomes a dark brown. I take a crap ton of a soft, not so tannic red wine and reduce that through barely a summer. The surface never breaks a bubble. This gets done in a stainless steel pot. It's important this part happens very slowly to prevent bitterness. If the flames crawl up the sides of the pot it will burn the edges inside the pot, making the wine bitter. If the wine boils, the volatile "fruit" characters disappear.
I take 2 gallons of red wine and reduce it to 3 cups (ish). It varies with the types of wine used. I buy a lot of malbec box wine for this but sometimes I'll get the "expired" bottles from the bar. I _ never_ use "the good stuff" wine when cooking. Once it hits the heat all that goodness is gone. I save good wine for its intended purpose- drinking.
But I digress. Once that wine has reduced, and once that veal stock has come close to desired consistency, I strain (crucial step) the red wine into the freshly strained "demi". I add about 15 crushed raw garlic cloves, sadly to taste and stir this in with 2-3 sprigs rosemary. Drop the rosemary in and allow to steep/simmer for 5 minutes then strain. 
This is the _ demi_ that we use as our steak sauce, and it's also a great springboard to add other flavorings. I even finish Bolognese with it. The sauce isn't bitter, it's meaty and somewhat sweet.

Rick,I know you know all this above, but my point was give your glace a shot without roasting. I believe you'll notice a marked difference in volume with your finished product. 

Oh, I forgot a step. Before starting your stock it's good to blanch the bones. If they're frozen this id's even better. I just throw them in a pot and cover them with cold water to 3 inches above the bones. Put on med high heat and once it barley starts to boil I shut it off and strain. I then thoroughly rinse Each Bone. This is paramount to making a clean, bitter free stock/glace.

This is just my 2 cents


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## chefcomesback (Jan 31, 2016)

Having trained by old school French cooking I have always used Demi glacé however over the years I have adapted it to fit my cooking style . I have stopped using tomato paste first of all , I do prefer fresh tomatoes , I felt it gives cleaner taste . I have stopped using wine , never been fan of "cooking wine" refused to use "not so good wine " and with the constant changes with the vintages etc finally i have decided no to use anymore 
Last I have started roasting the bones less but reduced my stock further closer to glacé . For service I heat up a la minute and mount butter in it


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## cheflarge (Jan 31, 2016)

The true "Nouvelle" approach, Mert. There is no Demi, de Viande or other wise GLAZE, with out bones, period.

I still roast bones overnight for Demi glaze and then use remoulage of the bones for glaze de viande.


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## panda (Jan 31, 2016)

roast bones & mirepoix. reduced stock with wine & more mirepoix, no roux. fresh tomatoes, no paste.


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## marc4pt0 (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm loving this discussion. This is where the mantra from culinary school comes into play:
13 different chefs, 13 different ways to make the perfect mashed potatoes.

I experimented with veal stocks and various types of "demi" over the years. Most of the time it was easy as it wasn't my money doing it and I worked with great chefs who were just as curious. Time and time again the no-roast method was my personal favorite. But that's just me. Maybe it's time to play once again?
I'm looking fwd to seeing other's take and input on this subject.

I found that methods of making stock and glaces are quite the personal thing amongst many chefs and cooks.

One stock that I still play with from time to time is lobster. Sometimes I think I have great flavor, then I play more and think _ this_ flavor is even better than the last!


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## chefcomesback (Jan 31, 2016)

cheflarge said:


> The true "Nouvelle" approach, Mert. There is no Demi, de Viande or other wise GLAZE, with out bones, period.
> 
> I still roast bones overnight for Demi glaze and then use remoulage of the bones for glaze de viande.



True brother , I forgot to add that I make remouillage as well , I add fresh batch of Mirepoix and use the second wash for braising liquid for cheeks etc or turn into jus for banquets


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## chefcomesback (Jan 31, 2016)

marc4pt0 said:


> I'm loving this discussion. This is where the mantra from culinary school comes into play:
> 13 different chefs, 13 different ways to make the perfect mashed potatoes.
> 
> I experimented with veal stocks and various types of "demi" over the years. Most of the time it was easy as it wasn't my money doing it and I worked with great chefs who were just as curious. Time and time again the no-roast method was my personal favorite. But that's just me. Maybe it's time to play once again?
> ...



Marc,
I am quite fond of "lobster bordolaise" , haven't made one for years since lobster is so expensive in down under but have had it on my menus in USA


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## Smurfmacaw (Jan 31, 2016)

For those of you that roast their bones, how dark do you let them get? I usually end up having to drain the roasting pan due to the fat that renders out of the marrow at least once or they tend to just sit there in fat and not really brown well. If you are roasting them overnight what temp? Seems like it would be easy to end up with charcoal if roasted at anything above about 225 or so.


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## boomchakabowwow (Feb 2, 2016)

tried it once.

i went wrong somewhere and my "ice cubes" ended up having some wierd taste. it took a long time to do and it was disappointing. i'm no pro. they were still good, but not GREAT like i've tasted before.


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## DamageInc (Feb 2, 2016)

A nice alternative to very heavy dense beef demi.

[video=youtube;BraJQrO8IqM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BraJQrO8IqM[/video]

I'm not a vegetarian by any means and this stuff is great.


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## cheflivengood (Feb 2, 2016)

Smurfmacaw said:


> For those of you that roast their bones, how dark do you let them get? I usually end up having to drain the roasting pan due to the fat that renders out of the marrow at least once or they tend to just sit there in fat and not really brown well. If you are roasting them overnight what temp? Seems like it would be easy to end up with charcoal if roasted at anything above about 225 or so.



If you don't overload your pan your fond in the bottom should equal the color of your bones when it is close to being done, beef can go pretty damn dark, think of a nice sear on a steak and aim for that. Now I am speaking from experience using a $60k combi oven, but I could brown 12 hotel pans of bones (50# beef neck cut to 2") in 30 min @ 500f, the convection was so good I wouldn't even need to touch them. if you want good yield on your beef sauce wet the roasted bones with a nice chicken bouillon, and the fond is just as important for final sauce color as the color on the bones so scrape the crap out of your pans (little boiling water helps).


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## Mucho Bocho (Feb 2, 2016)

Mike, You can also dust the bones with a little dehydrated milk, or rub some baking soda on them to get better browning at a lower temp. Also, don't through away that rendered fat either, Let it cool a bit and pour off the clear liquid. Roast potatoes in it sometime.


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## cheflarge (Feb 2, 2016)

I just noticed my previous post, what a dummy, should read: "roast bones for one to one and a half hours with mirepoix cover with COLD water and let simmer overnight." My apologies. :shocked3:


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## Smurfmacaw (Feb 2, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Mike, You can also dust the bones with a little dehydrated milk, or rub some baking soda on them to get better browning at a lower temp. Also, don't through away that rendered fat either, Let it cool a bit and pour off the clear liquid. Roast potatoes in it sometime.



AAAAAAHHHH, I'm so dumb! I never thought of that although I did tell my wife that I wish I hadn't thrown away the chicken fat......Oh well, us amateurs learn slowly but surely.....dang it!


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## Smurfmacaw (Feb 2, 2016)

Made some beef veg soup with the stock....light years beyond the "canned" stuff. Wife has been raving about it. I've started using the Keller idea (I guess it's his, that's where I saw it) of "refreshing" stock with mirepoix prior to using....makes a big difference. This is a great thread, I'm learning a lot about the finer points. Can't wait to make some of my own personal steak sauce with a really nice base (other than reduced canned stock :-( The Rowberrrrr sauce was a real hit....I appreciate you guys sharing some of the secrets that make you amazing.


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## Smurfmacaw (Feb 18, 2016)

Interestingly, I sucked it up and bought some veal bones....HUGE difference. Turned into jelly......made a remoulage and it turned into jelly too. Made my favorite steak sauce......family DEMANDS it and it made a huge difference. Wow, I'm a believer.

So, my question is....how much do you "professional" types pay for veal bones? I got 18 pounds for about 4.5 usd per pound. nice knuckles etc......lots of meat. i can't see that a professional kitchen could afford to make a real sauce with that kind of price.....or am I wrong.? It makes a HUGE difference and for me as a home cook its worth it......I'd like to get a better price though.....

MLM


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## ThEoRy (Feb 19, 2016)

I make 100 lb batches.


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## MontezumaBoy (Feb 19, 2016)

Smurf ... I don't know where you buy yours but I have worked with Iowa Meats/Seisil's many times and think you could get them cheaper but it is a volume/weight trade off. I would certainly go in with you if that is something that would be cool with you. Note; I keep 2+ gallons on hand (yes I make a lot of it) as I love the stuff and really, really enjoy the process of making it (I pretty much follow the Laundry/Keller method so 3 days or so). 



Smurfmacaw said:


> Interestingly, I sucked it up and bought some veal bones....HUGE difference. Turned into jelly......made a remoulage and it turned into jelly too. Made my favorite steak sauce......family DEMANDS it and it made a huge difference. Wow, I'm a believer.
> 
> So, my question is....how much do you "professional" types pay for veal bones? I got 18 pounds for about 4.5 usd per pound. nice knuckles etc......lots of meat. i can't see that a professional kitchen could afford to make a real sauce with that kind of price.....or am I wrong.? It makes a HUGE difference and for me as a home cook its worth it......I'd like to get a better price though.....
> 
> MLM


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## Smurfmacaw (Feb 20, 2016)

Siesel's is pretty much my go-to spot for meat (it's pretty close to where I work) and where I got the veal bones. If we can get a bulk discount I'm for it, I could easily store 50# in one of my freezers in the garage.


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## Smurfmacaw (Feb 20, 2016)

Finished up a batch of veal demi today. Decided to just reduce instead of going the espagnole route. 10# of veal bones yielded 5 cups of demi. Reduced the initial stock with the remoulage to increase the yield a bit. Reduced until it coats a spoon and is slightly viscous. Taste is very rich and meaty...overall I'm really happy with it. Stored it in 1/2 cup portions for freezing.


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## krx927 (Feb 24, 2016)

I do not do it often as I am just a home cook. I do it twice a year and freeze a lot in small containers. I do it the old fashion way, first stock, then espagnole and later demi glace. It takes me 2 days to get to demi glace...

Years ago when I was cooking it for the first time I could not agree with all the recipes that were using only bones to cook it. 
I come from a country where beef bouillion (with small noodels like vermicelli) is our national soup. We eat it all the time. We use meat to cook it. Some people add some bones, but very quickly you can get a bad taste/smell because of bones. I never add bones. I cook it from ox tail and beef shank that already contain a bit of bone and that is more than enough for me.

At my first try I was of the same opinion and I cooked 2 pots of stock, one only with bones and one with aprox. 2/3 meat (ox tail and beef shank) and 1/3 bones. When it was cooked I just could not stand the smell and taste of the one cooked with bones only. I just threw it away and did not even attempt demi glace out of it. When I was checking around I saw that majority of recipes are only using bones. Only a few add meat (Julia Child as an example).

I can understand that in pro kitchen using meat for stock/demi glace would be prohibitively expensive, but pros what is your view on using also meat? Somewhere I was reading that you get much sweeter demi glace when using meat...

Here is my cooking few months ago:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-good-Show-us!?p=391827&viewfull=1#post391827


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## panda (Feb 24, 2016)

i freeze beef scraps until i have a huge amount and roast the sh*t out of it and add it to the kettle when making veal stock, it definitely adds flavor.


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## Smurfmacaw (Feb 24, 2016)

Actually the bones I got still had a fair amount of meat attached. Not as much as using shanks or maybe even oxtail but still a fair amount. Next batch I'll do the full route with the veal (I still have enough bones left to do another batch) bones and make a classical demi glace and then I can compare directly rather than relying on memory. When I do chicken I use whole chickens....gives me an excuse to use my deba (yeah, I know it's really for fish but I don't have a garasuki yet...anyone got a kitaeji garasuki they want to sell?), I think the extra meat adds a lot.


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## Castalia (Feb 24, 2016)

Saw this recipe for veal stock:http://carolcookskeller.blogspot.com/2008/04/veal-stock.html

Looks ambitious. I usually just make batches of chicken stock at home with a whole bird and use the ice cube tray freezing method. One of these days I will try the full classic veal stock recipe.


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## Smurfmacaw (Feb 24, 2016)

That's basically the process except I roasted the bones and veg before simmering. I simmered (one or two bubbles every 10 sec or so) for 7 hours on the initial and 7 hours on the remoullage (with new veg and aromatics (unroasted this time)). Then combined and reduced (took about 4-5 hours.) to where it coats the back of a spoon. I used some Sunday night as a sauce for a asparagus risotto and man was it good. Totally worth the effort. 

I'll try the classical approach weekend after next and make an espagnole as part of the process and see how that compares.


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## scotchef38 (Feb 25, 2016)

DamageInc said:


> A nice alternative to very heavy dense beef demi.
> 
> [video=youtube;BraJQrO8IqM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BraJQrO8IqM[/video]
> 
> I'm not a vegetarian by any means and this stuff is great.



Keep meaning to try this-have you made many sauces with it?


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## DamageInc (Feb 25, 2016)

scotchef38 said:


> Keep meaning to try this-have you made many sauces with it?



I've made it 2-3 times. Just served it with hangar steak and roasted vegetables and asparagus.


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