# Which first nice knife should I buy?



## Triggaaar (Jul 13, 2017)

I'm new, for which I apologise.

My wife and I do a fair amount of home cooking, and we've got by for decades with a large collection (gifts) of basic knives.

I'd like one nice Chef's knife/Santoku.

I'll start with the questionnaire:

LOCATION - UK
KNIFE TYPE - chefs knife or Santoku
right handed
Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle? - no preference on the handle (due to lack of knowledge) - I generally pinch grip
What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? - 7" or 8"
Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) - no
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? - I don't know. If I can afford something good enough now, great, if I have to save, fine.
KNIFE USE - Home.
What are the main tasks - slicing veg and meats, and dicing veg. No bones. No fish.
What knife, if any, are you replacing? - N/A
Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? - Pinch
What cutting motions do you primarily use? - push cutting (the kind you'd use with a Santoku)
What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
1) easier dicing - since I'm not rocking a Chef's knife, perhaps a shallow angle Japanese blade will help?
2) Good edge retention
3) Comfort - medium weight, good balance around choil
4) Food release (maybe hammered or granton finish)
5) Easy to hone/sharpen

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.) - I'd like to order a European oak wood end grain from mtmwood, Russia. I currently use a silicon board, which I think is softer than the standard plastics. I'm not completely sure it's ok to use.
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.) - not yet, but willing to learn
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.) - yes

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I think I'd like a Santoku, as I don't really want to use the technique associated with Chef's knives, and I don't need to cut into bones, so I don't think I need the durability of a western chef's knife.
A Shun Classic maybe a bit too expensive for me, but if they did free sharpening (which I think they do in the US) I'd probably find a way to stretch to one.
I'm considering a Zelite VG10 Santoku (Japanese steel, made in China) - I don't think it will have much love here, as it's a modern copy of some much loved traditional Japanese knives, but it may be better value. I'd like to hear opinions on their knives, particularly from those who have tried them. Please bear in mind that I'm not a collector, like many of you, I just want one decent knife (although I imagine a few collectors started thinking that  ).

Many thanks


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## daveb (Jul 13, 2017)

Welcome to the forum.


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## tsuriru (Jul 14, 2017)

Welcome to the forum


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## foody518 (Jul 14, 2017)

You can push cut with gyuto and even something in Tojiro DP range will start you off in the range of knives worth having and sharpening


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

foody518 said:


> You can push cut with gyuto


Thank you for the reply 

I've ommitted to say that I draw cut meat. I've no idea why I do this, and whether it's a mistake or not :O

I've been reading about the gyuto too, and maybe that's a better choice for me, I don't know. The nakiri looks fun, but clearly isn't a one knife does all solution. The santoku looks like a cross between a gyuto and nikiri. The point of a gyuto probably gives the knife more uses, but I don't do intricate work and can use a paring or petty knife when needed.

And I don't mind learning knew cutting techniques if I'm better doing something other than push cutting veg and draw cutting meat.



> even something in Tojiro DP range will start you off in the range of knives worth having and sharpening


I've been searching and reading through the forum and seen the Tojiro DP well recommended for a budget knife. I'd be happy spending that little, but I'm concerned I'd want for more over time, and I'm not really wanting to 'start off', I'm wanting to get one good knife and stick with it for a long time (famous last words), so I wonder if I should get a slightly higher quality knife than the DP?


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## khashy (Jul 14, 2017)

welcome to the forum.

What's the maximum budget?


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## foody518 (Jul 14, 2017)

Triggaaar probably worth listing a rough budget range you are willing to spend or save for. The selection of knives is immense

Nothing wrong with draw cutting

I've modded my Tojiro DP over time so that it cuts significantly better than it did OOTB. It's a knife that can easily be improved as your sharpening improves
Before the last thinning session

Food release isn't noteworthy on it but there's generally a trade-off between ease of cutting and food release, or a price premium to be paid for a knife with a grind that maximizes each. On the whole my preference is towards ease of going through foods so long as the knife isn't a suction cup


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

Thank you for the replies.


khashy said:


> What's the maximum budget?





foody518 said:


> Triggaaar probably worth listing a rough budget range you are willing to spend or save for. The selection of knives is immense


It's not an easy thing to answer. I want to buy a nice knife that I will be happy with for years. I don't want to go too cheap and then have to buy again, and I don't want to go fancy expensive just for the sake of it, if I'm not really getting anything better.
If I can get what I need for < £100 then great, but if not and it's better to spend £150, then I will. I need to learn more before really knowing the answer.



> Nothing wrong with draw cutting


The truth is that what I currently do is as much dictated by the poor quality knives I have, as my (lack of) skills.

While I like the idea of a Japanese knife (more fragile, but sharper), I don't mind the idea of a traditional western chef's knife, and learning the skills.



> I've modded my Tojiro DP over time so that it cuts significantly better than it did OOTB. It's a knife that can easily be improved as your sharpening improves


Sounds good.



> Food release isn't noteworthy on it but there's generally a trade-off between ease of cutting and food release, or a price premium to be paid for a knife with a grind that maximizes each.


How much is the premium for a knife that can do both well (although not maximum)?


> On the whole my preference is towards ease of going through foods so long as the knife isn't a suction cup


I think mine would be the same, if I couldn't afford something that did both.


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## khashy (Jul 14, 2017)

Tojoro DP is an obvious choice but if you want a wa handle, these are worth a look. I have the funayuki and it really surprised me to the upside when it arrived.

It's made with blue 1 and the F&F is not bad. The handle looks much nicer in person than the photos. 

It's not super laser but thin enough at the end and actually sharp enough out of the box.

https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk/brands/takeo-murata


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## foody518 (Jul 14, 2017)

Khashy - do you do large root veg with the Murata?


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## Obsidiank (Jul 14, 2017)

Hi Triggaaar,

As someone who has just gotten into this world in the last year, I'd like to give you some perspective to help with the thought process. This forum feeds a specific sub-culture and that is the pursuit of knifes that are sharp, functional, beautiful. 

It's a lot easier to give someone advice with the perspective of getting a starter and progressing to better and then to ULTIMATE...as if there were an ultimate. There really isn't and so it becomes a constant pursuit and theirin lies the fun/fault. 

In that sense you can "easily" tracking progression to say Victorinox > Shun > Tojiro > Takeda > Tanaka > Gesshin > Watanabe > Kato > Shig > Custom > KNIFE FROM THE GODS OF PURE FIRE.

But if what you're looking for is a one-off good for years to come....well then you're population is now that single good knife available on the market. Even a poor quality knife if sharpened correctly can be amazing. At the end you are looking at a piece of metal that's shaped. 

So at the rate what you want to do is narrow the range and the easiest is by these factors:

1. Price/Style (Gyuto, Nakiri, Western)
2. Materials (Carbon vs Stainless) and type of metal which effects sharpness retention
3. Grind (Shape of the cutting area) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind

From there you pick one that looks good/feels good and then not worry because you are only buying 1 for years and there is no fear of regret as you won't have to compare. 

Personally, I think the $200 price point from K&S should meet any of your needs unless the hobby bug bites you...in which case like me...you may just end up dropping $600 on a Martell custom.

http://www.knivesandstones.com/syousin-chiku-1/

Best,
King


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

khashy said:


> Tojoro DP is an obvious choice


Thanks.


> but if you want a wa handle


Eh? I just want whatever handle comes with the knife 


Obsidiank said:


> As someone who has just gotten into this world in the last year, I'd like to give you some perspective to help with the thought process. This forum feeds a specific sub-culture and that is the pursuit of knifes that are sharp, functional, beautiful.


I'd like one knife that is sharp and functional. I confess, beauty would be a bonus, and I'd pay percentage more for that, but not 50%. But I think I understand your point 



> It's a lot easier to give someone advice with the perspective of getting a starter and progressing to better and then to ULTIMATE...as if there were an ultimate.


I never said it would be easy, you'll all just have to try extra hard 



> In that sense you can "easily" tracking progression to say Victorinox > Shun > Tojiro > Takeda > Tanaka > Gesshin > Watanabe > Kato > Shig > Custom > KNIFE FROM THE GODS OF PURE FIRE.


:lol: I like it. Isn't Shun more expensive than Tojiro?



> But if what you're looking for is a one-off good for years to come....well then you're population is now that single good knife available on the market. Even a poor quality knife if sharpened correctly can be amazing. At the end you are looking at a piece of metal that's shaped.


Understood. Sharp knives cut things (like food), although presumably some knives cut more effortlessly (due to shape, weight, blade thickness etc) than others. And obviously some hold their sharpness better than others, and sharpen more easily.

I totally understand that for many (most) of you, a good knife that cuts well isn't enough on it's own - you want more knives, more design choices, more style etc. Just like I have watches that are much worse at keeping accurate time than a $10 digital. And were it not for limited money, I could easily join you all, and get a nice collection to go on the wall on a wooden magnetic holder.



> So at the rate what you want to do is narrow the range and the easiest is by these factors:
> 
> 1. Price/Style (Gyuto, Nakiri, Western)
> 2. Materials (Carbon vs Stainless) and type of metal which effects sharpness retention
> 3. Grind (Shape of the cutting area) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind


1 a) A Nakiri (cool) has to be out, because it's tooo (deliberate extra o) much of a one trick pony. I want to cut meat with it etc. Gyuto, Santori, Western - yep, one of those please  (I honestly don't know which).
1 b) Price - well as items (in all walks of life) get more and more expensive, there are diminishing returns. I suppose I'd like to buy around where those diminishing returns set in.
2. I (obviously) won't put it in the dishwasher, I can wash it soon after use and dry it, but a bit of resilience wouldn't go a miss. I'd like it to stay sharp a while, I don't want to have to hone it every use. The easier it slides into veg, the better.
3. I've checked the link, thanks. I don't understand the options well enough to say. Unfortunately, due to my ignorance, I'll stick to listing my functional preferences, and see which knife suits  I will point out (which was no doubt obvious), however, that I'm not trying to create works of art in the kitchen that require precision (eg, a chisel grind where you can see the precise position of a cut).

From there you pick one that looks good/feels good and then not worry because you are only buying 1 for years and there is no fear of regret as you won't have to compare. 



> Personally, I think the $200 price point from K&S should meet any of your needs


I certainly hope so. I'll check out their site, thanks.


> unless the hobby bug bites you...in which case like me...you may just end up dropping $600 on a Martell custom.




So...
presumably I should try and choose the style first. I've read up on the differences between western and Japanese, and I still don't know what's the most suitable for me.

If using a gyuto or santoku, what do you do to finely chop herbs etc instead of cross chopping? I assume cross chopping would risk damaging the fine blade, so do you just chop one way and then rotate and chop the other?


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## khashy (Jul 14, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Khashy - do you do large root veg with the Murata?



Not really. Actually I don't really do large root veg at all. I think a big carrot is as far as it goes tbh, so I can't give you real feedback for its performance on that front. Just how our diet is I guess


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 14, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Eh? I just want whatever handle comes with the knife



There are (broadly) two types of handles: wa (traditional Japanese) and yo/ western/ "standard" / "normal" (latter two from the perspective of most westerners).

A wa handle is normally an untreated wood with a horn collar around the tip. Like so:






A yo handle is the riveted, full-tang style on most knives you see if you walk into most people's kitchens or stores. Like so:






Those are very standard and basic examples of each. Each can be made from an almost-unlimited number of materials, with colors, spacers, and everything else you can imagine.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

I wish there was a 'thanks' option for all of your posts.



DanHumphrey said:


> There are (broadly) two types of handles: wa (traditional Japanese) and yo/ western/ "standard" / "normal" (latter two from the perspective of most westerners).
> A wa handle is normally an untreated wood with a horn collar around the tip.
> ...
> A yo handle is the riveted, full-tang style on most knives you see if you walk into most people's kitchens or stores.


Ah, I had no idea.

I don't really mind, I'll pinch the blade and if the handle is comfortable, I'm happy. First I need to choose a knife style. Help!


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## JaVa (Jul 14, 2017)

There's a lot of good info here already to guide you on your quest for the ultimate knife for you. 

Having read the thread a couple of times I think the right way to go could be a gyuto? All purpose chef knife to serve you in all situations. If this really is one and done situation, no other style will serve you better. For home use the 210 size is a good compromise so maybe that could be something to consider? 

If you like to use a racket grip usually a western style handle is the more natural choice. If you pinch grip then a Japanese style wa handle could suit you better. But of course either handles will work with either grips. 

Also there's the matter of aesthetics, which you think looks better. From practical stand point the western style handle is very durable and will outlast a Wa handle several times over. Wa handles are mostly made from untreated wood and might need to be changed much sooner, but they are MUCH easier to replace and it's even fun to upgrade them to new ones made from higher end materials. 

I'll have a different opinion about the Tojiro DP being the right pick for you. It's a great knife, just not a NICE knife, which is something I get the sense you would like to have: a nice knife. 

You've been looking at Shuns right? They're pretty knives with the emphasis in looks, but not in performance. The DP out perform any Shun any day with ease, but their F&F isn't that good and over all they feel a bit generic and mundane. (All that is in a pro kitchen mostly a good thing BTW.) 

On the other hand Shuns feel special, but really aren't. There's questionable heat treat, weird profiles, of balance ergonomics and super heavy handles. They'll perform better then most of the basic western brands, but still can't compete with real J-knives.


Some of these western style knives could work.

If the Tojiro DP is a style of knife you like check out Takamura VG10. You'll get the same steel as the DP, but better heat treat, far better F&F, superior grind and better cutting performance. Almost twice the price though, but absolutely worth it. Cleancut.se has it in stock (site is only in Swedish).

From Tojiro a better match for you could be the Tojiro HSPS 210 gyuto. Better steel than the DP series with much better edge retention, grind, better F&F and better cutting performance too. Check it out at K&S.

Takamura R2 (red handle) almost needs no introductions. It's a long time forum favourite. It's laser thin and light with one of the best cutting performances ever sub 200$. The initial edge is delicate and probably will micro chip, but after first sharpening you should be ok. R2 steel has great edge retention and over all it's a high performance cutter, but a bit over budget. You can find it at japan-messershop.de (only in german). 

If you'r on a really tight budget I'd look at the Tanaka VG10 damascus. I'd choose it over the DP every time (and I have). IMO It's one step above the DP in everything except F&F which is about the same quality. Plus if you want some looks at least it has the damascus cladding to ad some interest. The handle is very basic though. 
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-vg10-damascus-gyuto-240mm-western-handle/


These wa style knives could be a good fit. 

Wakui kasumi 210 gyuto. It's W2 carbon core with SS cladding. It has superb F&F, grind profile and balance, but the stock handle isn't the most dazzling. I love the burned handle, but the plastic ferrule isn't for everyone. there's an upgrade option for the handle, but it might push the budget too far. All the ebony handless are lovely. 
http://www.knivesandstones.com/wakui-gyuto-210mm-white-2-stainless-clad/?setCurrencyId=4

Tanaka ginsan nashiji (all SS) or Tanaka B2 nashiji (SS clad carbon core) are the same knife, but they have different core steels. Tanaka B2 steel is the easiest to get sharp you'll ever come by. Tanaka ginsan is one of the best SS options around IMO (I love the stuff and that knife). Both have rustic charm with the rough pear skin (nashiji) finish. With these you already get an upgraded handle. 
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-with-ebony-handle/
http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-blue-2-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-stainless-clad/

JNS would have the Itinomonn (semi-) SS kasumi 210 gyuto, but unfortunately it's OOS ATM. Lovely high performance cutter that combines the best qualities of carbon and SS. 
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-210mm-wa-gyuto/ 

There's the full carbon options too if you don't mind the maintenance they require to prevent rusting and the look of a patina on a blade?


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## JaVa (Jul 14, 2017)

...Also, Western handles usually make a knife a bit more handle heavy due to the fact there's more metal in the handle and the heavier handle materials being used. Vice versa, the Wa handles make a knife more blade heady. If balance is important to that's something to consider. I use both, but prefer Japanese handles and blade heavy balance (like most here do). 

It's only personal preference and you should choose what feels more natural to you.


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## sharptools (Jul 14, 2017)

I probably say this every time. If you're seeing this as an opportunity to try carbon, I highly recommend Carbonext as a first knife with a good set of sharpening stones. It gives you a basic idea of carbon care and sharpening and when you mess up, the effects aren't as devastating, the steel gives decent feedback when sharpening and while edge retention isn't the greatest, the knife cuts pretty well and it won't break the bank.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 14, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> I wish there was a 'thanks' option for all of your posts.
> 
> Ah, I had no idea.
> 
> I don't really mind, I'll pinch the blade and if the handle is comfortable, I'm happy. First I need to choose a knife style. Help!



I was brought up with the "hammer" grip, and the wa handles looked weird and uncomfortable. As soon as I got my Tanaka from K&S and held it in a pinch grip, it all made sense. If you use the pinch grip, you'll probably prefer wa.

My recommendation would be a 210 wa-gyuto. It's mostly like a santoku with a tip, which will be handy for meats. The gyutos, even though they're "western" style knives, aren't designed for heavy-duty use on bones either. Personally, I think Tanakas from K&S are great starters, since they're high-quality, affordable (and thus great values), and the profile is a bit more like a traditional western knife so it's a bit easier to adjust (but make no mistake, it's not a big-belly Euro knife!). You can get the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji "lite" from K&S for USD146 right now (probably less GBP), and hit the spine and choil with sandpaper yourself to make it more comfortable. Heckuva knife for the price. http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-lite/

For a western handle, you can get (from K&S but also elsewhere) the Tojiro HSPS for just under USD150 as well: http://www.knivesandstones.com/tojiro-powdered-high-speed-steel-gyuto-chef-210mm-f-520/. It has a better grind than the DP series, better steel, and should be better in general. It only has the yo handle, though, and is much rarer to find for sale than the DP, which is distributed widely and in high volume.

Both of those knives are stainless; a good carbon example should be: http://www.knivesandstones.com/shinko-seilan-gyuto-210mm-ku-aogami-super-by-shiro-kamo/. Note that it's not stainless, but has the "forge finish" kurouchi on the blade sides to help with reactivity. I don't know much about that one, though.


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## OliverNuther (Jul 14, 2017)

If you're still tossing up between Western or Japanese style knives, the deciding factor should probably be your knife skills and board habits. 

If you're rock chopping, smashing through large pumpkins and scraping product off your board with the edge of your knife, stick with a Western blade.

If you're primarily push cutting ( as you say you are), not torquing the blade and not using it as a bench scraper, go Japanese. Japanese blades reward good technique. 

My recommendation would be the Tojiro 240 HSPS, as opposed to the DP. Couple more bucks but better knife. Spend a couple more on a 1000/6000 combo stone (forget the hone) and that's all you need to get started.


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## foody518 (Jul 14, 2017)

Thanks to the above folks who mentioned Tojiro HSPS - forgot to think about this one but a good choice

My experience with OOTB Tanaka and Takamura knives leads me to be disinclined to recommend them to those who don't already sharpen or have a competent sharpener nearby. Liable to get a few chips, not microchips

As some of the dialogue above has also shown - demands for ease of cutting also depends on what you typically eat. If large root veg, squash, melons aren't commonly eaten items, you can easily go a more robust knife with more pronounced convex and food release


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

Wow - massive and detailed reply, thank you. I'm sorry if this isn't easy on the eye, but I find it easier to split into sections to reply to each bit:


JaVa said:


> Having read the thread a couple of times I think the right way to go could be a gyuto? All purpose chef knife to serve you in all situations. If this really is one and done situation


Well I expect to have a small paring/petty knife. I'll also keep an old (rubbish) chef's knife for anything with bones in. My 'one and done' angle is more the fact that I can't afford to start collecting knives, and I also don't want to waste money by getting it wrong and having to buy decent the next time. If it was the case that everyone need two such knives, then that's what I'd be looking at, but all the advice I see is that you only need one decent chef's knife, be it western, gyuto or santoku.



> no other style will serve you better. For home use the 210 size is a good compromise so maybe that could be something to consider?


210 should be fine for a gyuto - I know some (many) here would prefer longer, but I think we'd be more comfortable at 210, due to what we're used to.

May I ask why you're thinking gyuto rather than santoku or western chef's?



> Also there's the matter of aesthetics, which you think looks better.


Well I have to admit the hammered and damascus Japanese blades look lovely, and I like the look of a santoku more than a gyuto or western chef's knife, but I'm a practical guy, and wouldn't let looks win over function.



> From practical stand point the western style handle is very durable and will outlast a Wa handle several times over. Wa handles are mostly made from untreated wood and might need to be changed much sooner, but they are MUCH easier to replace and it's even fun to upgrade them to new ones made from higher end materials.


I'm not sure I'm ready for that level of fun 



> I'll have a different opinion about the Tojiro DP being the right pick for you. It's a great knife, just not a NICE knife, which is something I get the sense you would like to have: a nice knife.


Forgive me, what do you mean, exactly?



> You've been looking at Shuns right?


Only because I've seen them advertised, and read about them in reviews. You can just about ignore anything I'd heard of before posting here, I'm a newbie 


> They're pretty knives with the emphasis in looks, but not in performance. The DP out perform any Shun any day with ease, but their F&F isn't that good and over all they feel a bit generic and mundane. (All that is in a pro kitchen mostly a good thing BTW.)


If the DP out performs the Shun, then I'd rather have the DP. And while they may look mundane among a beautiful collection of knives, they'd still be by far the prettiest knife I've ever owned.

By the way, when you all say DP are you referring to the Tojiro DP, like the F-807, or including Tojiro DP Damascus? The F-808 (21cm) is £57 here, and the F-508 (18cm, can't see a 21cm) damascus is £94. Both options are affordable.



> On the other hand Shuns feel special, but really aren't. There's questionable heat treat, weird profiles, of balance ergonomics and super heavy handles. They'll perform better then most of the basic western brands, but still can't compete with real J-knives.


Thanks. Then I'll look elsewhere.



> If the Tojiro DP is a style of knife you like check out Takamura VG10. You'll get the same steel as the DP, but better heat treat, far better F&F, superior grind and better cutting performance. Almost twice the price though, but absolutely worth it. Cleancut.se has it in stock (site is only in Swedish).


Not sure if I'm looking at the right options on that site, they say the knives are HSPS, but don't mention VG10 (at least where I'm looking). In terms of style of knife I like, as I've said above, all will be such a step up from what I've suffered before, that I could be happy with about any style. Function first, style second.



> From Tojiro a better match for you could be the Tojiro HSPS 210 gyuto. Better steel than the DP series with much better edge retention, grind, better F&F and better cutting performance too. Check it out at K&S.


Very nice. In a brief search I didn't see that knife in the UK. K&S ship from Australia right? Is that the best option? And when you say better than the DP, do you mean the basic, or the damascus, or both?



> Takamura R2 (red handle) almost needs no introductions. It's a long time forum favourite. It's laser thin and light with one of the best cutting performances ever sub 200$. The initial edge is delicate and probably will micro chip, but after first sharpening you should be ok. R2 steel has great edge retention and over all it's a high performance cutter, but a bit over budget. You can find it at japan-messershop.de (only in german).


I can see that on ************** (nice), but can't find it on the German site (japan-messer-shop.de). Maybe it's just called something slightly different?



> If you'r on a really tight budget I'd look at the Tanaka VG10 damascus. I'd choose it over the DP every time (and I have). IMO It's one step above the DP in everything except F&F which is about the same quality. Plus if you want some looks at least it has the damascus cladding to ad some interest. The handle is very basic though.
> http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-vg10-damascus-gyuto-240mm-western-handle/


I'd be happy with something like that (assuming it's comfortable). And while I could spend more, I'd need to feel that I'm getting something extra for the extra money. A little more money for better looks, fine, but if it's 50% more then I want more than improved looks.



> Wakui kasumi 210 gyuto. It's W2 carbon core with SS cladding. It has superb F&F, grind profile and balance, but the stock handle isn't the most dazzling. I love the burned handle, but the plastic ferrule isn't for everyone. there's an upgrade option for the handle, but it might push the budget too far. All the ebony handless are lovely.
> http://www.knivesandstones.com/wakui-gyuto-210mm-white-2-stainless-clad/?setCurrencyId=4


Yeah that's too expensive - got to get it shipped and pay tax etc.



> Tanaka ginsan nashiji (all SS) or Tanaka B2 nashiji (SS clad carbon core) are the same knife, but they have different core steels. Tanaka B2 steel is the easiest to get sharp you'll ever come by. Tanaka ginsan is one of the best SS options around IMO (I love the stuff and that knife). Both have rustic charm with the rough pear skin (nashiji) finish. With these you already get an upgraded handle.
> http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-with-ebony-handle/
> http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-blue-2-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-stainless-clad/


The B2 sounds better, but it's cheaper?



> There's the full carbon options too if you don't mind the maintenance they require to prevent rusting and the look of a patina on a blade?


While I can wash and dry after use, that's about it, I don't want maintenance. If I'm having carbon, I assume I need it clad in steel.


Great options, thank you so much!

I really do need to choose chef's / gyuto / santoku, so I can then choose which one. Not sure how to choose though.
Are the gyuto's you recommend ok with light cross chopping, or is it best avoided?


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> Personally, I think Tanakas from K&S are great starters, since they're high-quality, affordable (and thus great values), and the profile is a bit more like a traditional western knife so it's a bit easier to adjust





OliverNuther said:


> If you're still tossing up between Western or Japanese style knives, the deciding factor should probably be your knife skills and board habits.
> 
> If you're rock chopping, smashing through large pumpkins and scraping product off your board with the edge of your knife, stick with a Western blade.
> 
> If you're primarily push cutting ( as you say you are), not torquing the blade and not using it as a bench scraper, go Japanese. Japanese blades reward good technique.


Just quickly on this point of my existing 'skills' and adjusting. I trust the voice in me head (it's Yoda) and it says 'you must unlearn what you have learned'. My 'skills' are not worthy of recognition. I manage to make food items smaller, with the knives I have, so perhaps I deserve some credit for that minor miracle, but whichever knife I go for, I will learn the correct way to use it.

As far as I understand, one (the) major advantage of the western chef's knife is its robustness. It's ability to cut birds with bones etc. That is something I don't need, so won't take advantage of.
Therefore my gut feeling is that I'd benefit more from the advantages of a Japanese style knife (I would need to learn the correct method to finely chop herbs without rock chopping though).
I just don't want to be too hasty in crossing a western style chef's knife off my list when I'm still so green, and I know that chef's can do far more with their western knives than I need to do anyway.


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## JaVa (Jul 14, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> You can get the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji "lite" from K&S for USD146 right now (probably less GBP), and hit the spine and choil with sandpaper yourself to make it more comfortable. Heckuva knife for the price. http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-lite/



DH is talking about the same knife I mentioned too. There's two versions of the ginsan nashiji gyutos (plus the B2 nashiji) 

There's the regular Tanaka ginsan nashiji version with better F&F. It has a fully rounded spine and higher quality ebony handle. 

There's the Tanaka ginsan lite version which is cheaper without the rounded spine and with a random dark wood handle (but still very well made). Like DanHumphrey said the rounding can be sanded down pretty easily if you want to save a bit. 

Those are the only differences and otherwise it's exactly the same knife. 

Then there's the B2 nashiji version which is the same knife with carbon core steel. the core steel will patina and it's a little easier to sharpen. The ginsan has slightly better edge retention and is fully SS. Not as easy to sharpen, but still very easy for a SS knife.

Here is an active pass around thread about the Tanaka B2 ginsan nashiji that you can check out to see what others here think about the knife. As the profile, grind, thickness, handle etc. are all the same with the ginsan versions too, everything that's said about the cutting performance, balance, food release etc. will apply to the ginsan versions as well. 

Edit. Forgot the link to the pass around.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/33111-Tanaka-nashiji-stainless-clad-Blue-2/page3

Mind you these are very thin behind the edge like most J-knives and can't be abused like some western brands which have thicker edges, thicker blades and softer steels. That's the price you pay for the ultra sharpness, edge retention and cutting performance. Just keeping that in mind while using J-knives you'll be fine! :thumbsup:


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

foody518 said:


> As some of the dialogue above has also shown - demands for ease of cutting also depends on what you typically eat. If large root veg, squash, melons aren't commonly eaten items, you can easily go a more robust knife with more pronounced convex and food release


Most common food:
Light veg: Onions, peppers, courgettes etc
Heavy veg: Potatoes, butternut squash
Meat: Chicken, beef

If the butternut squash is all that a Japanese blade would struggle with (and ignoring boned meat), I wouldn't want that to be the deciding factor. We can always use an existing chef's knife for butternut squash if necessary.



And thank you so much everyone for your help, I really appreciate it.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

JaVa said:


> Mind you these are very thin behind the edge like most J-knives and can't be abused like some western brands which have thicker edges, thicker blades and softer steels. That's the price you pay for the ultra sharpness, edge retention and cutting performance. Just keeping that in mind while using J-knives you'll be fine! :thumbsup:


Ultra sharpness, edge retention and cutting performance you say? If that's the case (and I hoped it would be), then I'm sure it's a Japanese knife I'm after. I won't abuse it, I promise.

It seems that everyone is recommending a gyuto instead of a santoku, why is that? When slicing with a gyuto, does the tip of the knife generally stay in contact with the board, as with a western chef's knife?


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## wbusby1 (Jul 14, 2017)

No, when the tip of the knife stays in contact with the board that's rocking and not push-cutting, and you said you use push-cut mainly. A gyuto is more versatile than a santoku. 


If you want ultra sharpness, edge retention and cutting performance and are used to a santoku profile, I'd have to recommend a Mazaki gyuto from JNS, but honestly I'd recommend buying a cheaper knife and a decent sharpening stone first though (e.g. a kiwi for 6 USD and a Watanbe or JNS 1k for ~65USD) Being able to sharpen well is way more useful/effective than having a nice knife IMO.


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## JaVa (Jul 14, 2017)

Ok, that's a lot of stuff to get to, but I'll try. 

Why gyuto?

There is chef knives from western brands with western handles. 
There is Japanese style chef knives with wa type of handles from western brands. 
There's Japanese gyutos with western (yo) handles. 
There's Japanese gyutos with Japanese (wa) handles.

We're talking about the two latter kind. They are similar in principal, blade design and performance only difference being the handle. So a Japanese chef knife with a western handle is just as good as a Japanese chef knife with a Japanese handle and both are called gyutos. The Japanese kitchens knives in general are far superior in cutting performance compared to the western brands. 

Santoku is a nakiri/gyuto hybrid. Some love it. I don't. It's supposed to combine the virtues of nakiri and gyuto into one, but it ends up being not that good at anything IMO. I'd rather get a nakiri and a gyuto. Gyuto is a much more balanced and versatile knife. Gyutos pointier tip is much more useful. Easier to do delicate stuff with and if you ever need to remove silver skin off of a piece of meat with a santoku you'll learn to appreciate a pointier tip of the gyuto quite quickly. The higher tip is also more balanced when pushing thru stuff. Santokus low stubby tip doesn't really want go thru anything.

I can see the attraction in a santoku, but it would not be my first choise for my sole knife to use.


Why Tojiro DP is not a nice knife?
The F&F is ok at best. Blocky handle, the heat treat while fine could be better, the steel is a bit soft for a J-knife, the grind is flat (=no food release), the edge is a bit thick etc. It's still a fine knife really and does cut very well, but it's a very VERY western style (kinda softball) option. If you are interested in gyutos, why not go for something a bit more? Still it's a great knife for a certain need and if the DP feels right then by all means it's a great choice!


Takamura VG10?
Takamura HSPS is the red handle version the VG10 is the black handle version named only Takamura priced at 1295kr. 


Takamura R2? 
Takamura hocho PM stahl / Asagao. Same knife as the HSPS on cleancuts site BTW.

The Tanaka B2 nashiji sounds better? Cheaper?
Don't know why it's cheaper? I'd rate them the same quality wise. I have both, I love both.

About shipping and taxes from K&S Australia? 
Ask James @ K&S about those and see what he can do. Great guy btw.

Cross chopping?
If you mean walking the knife across the cutting board? With all J-knives is best to avoid. With nakiris and santokus too. The hard and thin steel at the edge can't take the sideways stress of the cross chopping. Use a cheap soft steel knife for that. :thumbsup:


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

wbusby1 said:


> No, when the tip of the knife stays in contact with the board that's rocking and not push-cutting


I'm calling 'push-cutting' correctly, but I've seen two slightly different descriptions of rock chopping - both with the tip staying in contact with the board, but one description where the knife doesn't rotate, and one where it does.



> and you said you use push-cut mainly.


Yes, but I don't own a decent knife and I'd like to learn to use one well, so I'll learn whatever techniques I need to.


> A gyuto is more versatile than a santoku.


I thought so, but does the santoku not have any advantages, given that it's more specialised? I wonder if the shorter length of a santoku would be nicer to handle? And given that I don't do very artistic cutting, what sort of thing can a gyuto do that a santoku can't?




> If you want ultra sharpness, edge retention and cutting performance


Yes please.


> and are used to a santoku profile


I'm not, I don't have a santoku at the moment.


> honestly I'd recommend buying a cheaper knife and a decent sharpening stone first though (e.g. a kiwi for 6 USD and a Watanbe or JNS 1k for ~65USD) Being able to sharpen well is way more useful/effective than having a nice knife IMO.


Are you suggesting a cheaper knife so that beginner sharpening mistakes aren't ruining a more expensive knife, or because a cheaper knife will be easier to sharpen? Either way it sounds like a decent plan.

I keep reading sharpening rather than honing. I had thought that knives needed regular honing to keep the edge straight, rather than sharpening, which removes material. Have I got that wrong?


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## OliverNuther (Jul 14, 2017)

Sounds like you're "turning Japanese". Good choice. 

Don't get too hung up on making the "perfect" choice. Any knife recommended to you by the guys will be immeasurably better than anything you have used before and will blow your mind. I know you're looking at "one and done' but trust me that won't happen. Whatever you buy will impress you so much that you will say to yourself "Wow this ABC is sooooo good! Imagine if I bought an XYZ!" And you will start plotting the next purchase. Don't shake your head at me, I'm telling you you will. Ask me how I know. 

So pick a number you can afford, allow money for stones, buy whatever is recommended within your budget and thank me later. I'd still recommend the Tojiro HSPS though I don't know your budget. If you can afford more buy a Tanaka.


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## OliverNuther (Jul 14, 2017)

Honing is more commonly done on softer Western knives. The softer steel will roll or deform with use and honing realigns the edge. Harder Japanese steels will chip when abused rather than roll so honing has little effect.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 14, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Just quickly on this point of my existing 'skills' and adjusting. I trust the voice in me head (it's Yoda) and it says 'you must unlearn what you have learned'. My 'skills' are not worthy of recognition. I manage to make food items smaller, with the knives I have, so perhaps I deserve some credit for that minor miracle, but whichever knife I go for, I will learn the correct way to use it.
> 
> As far as I understand, one (the) major advantage of the western chef's knife is its robustness. It's ability to cut birds with bones etc. That is something I don't need, so won't take advantage of.
> Therefore my gut feeling is that I'd benefit more from the advantages of a Japanese style knife (I would need to learn the correct method to finely chop herbs without rock chopping though).
> I just don't want to be too hasty in crossing a western style chef's knife off my list when I'm still so green, and I know that chef's can do far more with their western knives than I need to do anyway.



Sorry, I may not have been clear enough. When I say the Tanaka is "a bit more like a western knife" it's not that it's like a western knife in any way but the shape of the blade, which is _slightly_ more "western" than most J-knives. It will feel a bit more normal, but it still has the same advantages and restrictions as other gyutos. What it lacks is a longer flat spot at the heel of the blade, and in exchange... I've found that I can (gently!) use mine to do bits of rock-chopping. To mince herbs. It might be the ticket for you, to start with.


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## Nemo (Jul 14, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> Honing is more commonly done on softer Western knives. The softer steel will roll or deform with use and honing realigns the edge. Harder Japanese steels will chip when abused rather than roll so honing has little effect.



Look at Jon's vid on this topic which can be found on youtube or his JKI site or here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?t=9400

Explains why pretty well.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

JaVa said:


> Ok, that's a lot of stuff to get to, but I'll try.
> ... snip


Perfect, thank you!!!

PS - yes, that's what I meant by cross chopping (sometimes called rock chopping). I won't do it. What do people do instead to finely chop their herbs?


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## Nemo (Jul 14, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Perfect, thank you!!!
> 
> PS - yes, that's what I meant by cross chopping (sometimes called rock chopping). I won't do it. What do people do instead to finely chop their herbs?



Like Rick (ThEoRy) does:

https://youtu.be/naJl1C4jkU8


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> Sounds like you're "turning Japanese". Good choice.


I've been vapored! I thought I'd like a Japanses style knife before arriving, but knowing how many good chefs still choose western knives I wasn't sure. But they need something that can handle the tough stuff too, whereas I don't.



> Don't get too hung up on making the "perfect" choice. Any knife recommended to you by the guys will be immeasurably better than anything you have used before and will blow your mind. I know you're looking at "one and done' but trust me that won't happen.


I'm worried that you're right 


> So pick a number you can afford, allow money for stones, buy whatever is recommended within your budget and thank me later.


Can I not just thank you now? 


> I'd still recommend the Tojiro HSPS though I don't know your budget. If you can afford more buy a Tanaka.


Thanks. The Tojiros are quite affordable in the UK, but I can't see the HSPS version here, and it's more expensive importing them, which puts the price closer to the Tanaka and others.



OliverNuther said:


> Honing is more commonly done on softer Western knives. The softer steel will roll or deform with use and honing realigns the edge. Harder Japanese steels will chip when abused rather than roll so honing has little effect.


Perfect, understood. I'm glad I asked 



DanHumphrey said:


> Sorry, I may not have been clear enough. When I say the Tanaka is "a bit more like a western knife" it's not that it's like a western knife in any way but the shape of the blade, which is _slightly_ more "western" than most J-knives.


I understood perfectly, but I meant I don't need a similar profile to what I'm used to, as I'm not bothered about adjusting - I'm happy to start over and learn the skills for whatever I buy.



> but it still has the same advantages and restrictions as other gyutos. What it lacks is a longer flat spot at the heel of the blade, and in exchange... I've found that I can (gently!) use mine to do bits of rock-chopping. To mince herbs. It might be the ticket for you, to start with.


Mmm, pros and cons. As in the video of Rick below, the option to lightly rock chop herbs is handy, but then I also like the idea of a larger flat section from push cutting. I won't lose sleep over the difference, but it's handy to know, thanks.



Nemo said:


> Look at Jon's vid on this topic which can be found on youtube or his JKI site or here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?t=9400
> 
> Explains why pretty well.


Thanks - just as I understood from Oliver's quick explanation.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 14, 2017)

So, this is where I've got to from all your great advice:

1) I'd like a gyuto and stone(s)

I like the look of many (all) of the options you've all posted. If sharpening wasn't an issue, from all the advice given I think I'd be spending > £100.

However:
Am I like to make a mess of the knife due to poor sharpening technique?
Is the answer dependent on which knife I go for (ie, are some of the ones you've recommended more susceptible to chipping from poor technique than others)?
Should I consider something like the Tojiro DP 21cm chef's knife F-808 purely because it's decent and only £57 and I'm likely to damage it (and learn) somewhat?


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## OliverNuther (Jul 15, 2017)

Gyuto and stones is a good choice. 

You won't damage your knife with poor sharpening technique. It's entirely possible that you may sharpen it badly or incompletely with poor technique but if that happens, the worst case scenario is that you will have to sharpen it again. And the more you practice sharpening, the better you get. 

Nemo referred to one of Jon from JKI's videos earlier; he's got a whole playlist of them and they cover everything you will ever need to know about sharpening. Watch them and jump in and give it a crack. Don't make the mistake of watching every video in existence and suffering from paralysis by analysis. Learning the theory is great but there is no substitute for jumping in and getting your hands dirty, literally.


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## Nemo (Jul 15, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> Gyuto and stones is a good choice.
> 
> You won't damage your knife with poor sharpening technique. It's entirely possible that you may sharpen it badly or incompletely with poor technique but if that happens, the worst case scenario is that you will have to sharpen it again. And the more you practice sharpening, the better you get.
> 
> Nemo referred to one of Jon from JKI's videos earlier; he's got a whole playlist of them and they cover everything you will ever need to know about sharpening. Watch them and jump in and give it a crack. Don't make the mistake of watching every video in existence and suffering from paralysis by analysis. Learning the theory is great but there is no substitute for jumping in and getting your hands dirty, literally.



+1. I learned the basics of sharpening from Jon's vids. They break a slightly complex but achievable skill down into very easy to master components. There is a video that pops up at the end of that playlist that is not one of Jon's. It goes into how variations in pressure can improve your sharpening and is also useful. Once I started doing this, my edges improved noticeably (they were already adequate though).

Edit: maybe "easy to master components" is going a bit far. Perhaps "easy to achieve" would be more accurate.


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## nepastovus (Jul 15, 2017)

Since you are in uk how about taking a look at something local and not two expensive like blenheim forge or two sticks forge


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 15, 2017)

Two Sticks has about as much belly as Tanaka, or a bit more, and Blenheim has a LOT more.

As for sharpening, no, you won't really hurt anything. To expand upon above, you might screw up the edge, and need to take a break (or a few deep breaths) to relax and steady your hands and have another go, but it really removes very little metal and would take intention or power tools to really hurt.

From what you've said, I say go with the Shinko Seilan if you want the "full experience" and are willing to learn it all. http://www.knivesandstones.com/shinko-seilan-gyuto-210mm-ku-aogami-super-by-shiro-kamo/ Japanese profile, Japanese handle, traditional carbon steel and iron cladding. As a bonus, blue super is a fantastic steel that's fairly easy to sharpen and works well on everything.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

nepastovus said:


> Since you are in uk how about taking a look at something local and not two expensive like blenheim forge


Mmm, they do a gyuto. £280, Japanese Blue Paper steel core with folded Iron cladding.

Iron?


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## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> You won't damage your knife with poor sharpening technique. It's entirely possible that you may sharpen it badly or incompletely with poor technique but if that happens, the worst case scenario is that you will have to sharpen it again. And the more you practice sharpening, the better you get.





Nemo said:


> +1.





DanHumphrey said:


> As for sharpening, no, you won't really hurt anything. To expand upon above, you might screw up the edge, and need to take a break (or a few deep breaths) to relax and steady your hands and have another go, but it really removes very little metal and would take intention or power tools to really hurt.


So do you guys disagree with foody518?


foody518 said:


> My experience with OOTB Tanaka and Takamura knives leads me to be disinclined to recommend them to those who don't already sharpen or have a competent sharpener nearby. Liable to get a few chips, not microchips


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## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> Gyuto and stones is a good choice.


Half way there 



> Nemo referred to one of Jon from JKI's videos earlier; he's got a whole playlist of them and they cover everything you will ever need to know about sharpening. Watch them and jump in and give it a crack.


Will do. Maybe I'll go and sharpen my chisels for some early tool sharpening practice.


Nemo said:


> +1. I learned the basics of sharpening from Jon's vids. They break a slightly complex but achievable skill down into very easy to master components. There is a video that pops up at the end of that playlist that is not one of Jon's. It goes into how variations in pressure can improve your sharpening and is also useful. Once I started doing this, my edges improved noticeably (they were already adequate though).


Thanks.



DanHumphrey said:


> From what you've said, I say go with the Shinko Seilan if you want the "full experience" and are willing to learn it all. http://www.knivesandstones.com/shinko-seilan-gyuto-210mm-ku-aogami-super-by-shiro-kamo/


In terms of looking after a knife, I don't want any experience at all, let alone the 'full experience'  I do want a good knife though, and I realise it will need to be looked after and sharpened.


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## Nemo (Jul 15, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Mmm, they do a gyuto. £280, Japanese Blue Paper steel core with folded Iron cladding.
> 
> Iron?



Yep, most traditional Japanese carbon san mai have soft iron cladding (I think it's actually a very low carbon steel). Usually it's quite reactive until it patinas.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 15, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Mmm, they do a gyuto. £280, Japanese Blue Paper steel core with folded Iron cladding.
> 
> Iron?



Iron cladding is traditional. It's soft and durable and easy to grind off when thinning the blade, but is very prone to rust, or just discoloring when cutting any sort of acidic food if not rinsed and dried immediately. Like, in between each pepper/ onion. That's why I shied away from recommending non-kurouchi iron-clad knives.



Triggaaar said:


> So do you guys disagree with foody518?



I do - my Tanaka was my first nice knife, followed by a Takamura santoku for my wife. The Takamura got some chips eventually (after a year, though with me sharpening periodically) before I taught her to not just put it in the sink with dishes for me to clean. The Tanaka hasn't chipped at all. Neither is hard to sharpen, so if you get chips, you sharpen them out. They're not more prone to chipping than any other J-knives I've used, and if you put a too-steep/ chip-prone edge on them, well, it lets you get more practice putting a new edge on.

I haven't heard anyone calling Tanakas "chippy" until that post. Takamuras yes, but they're _very_ thin knives that I wouldn't typically recommend for a first/ only J-knife. And what chips occurred were more micro than macro, and came out easily with a cheap coarse stone.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 15, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> In terms of looking after a knife, I don't want any experience at all, let alone the 'full experience'  I do want a good knife though, and I realise it will need to be looked after and sharpened.



Well then I'm back to the Ginsan 210 "lite". 

http://www.knivesandstones.com/tanaka-ginsan-nashiji-gyuto-210mm-lite/

Just ignore the fact that it's a bit more curved than most gyutos; you probably wouldn't notice if it weren't pointed out. I have the petty of that knife, and it can actually discolor just a bit with very acidic food (splitting lemons for juicing), but nothing like my iron-clad gyuto. The Ginsan will be affordable, easy to care for, and easy to sharpen.

It feels like we're at a point of going in circles, so I may leave that as my final piece of advice. I'll be interested to see where you end up, though, and how you like it. Good luck!


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## JaVa (Jul 15, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> So do you guys disagree with foody518?



What foody meant was directed at abusing knives while cutting, not sharpening. Tanaka and Takamura are thin behind the edge and the hard thin steel can brake of small chips if abused on the cutting board like board walking, scraping sideways etc. You need the sharpening skills to fix that. 

The initial factory edge can be fatigued from being over worked and can microchip at first, but the after first sharpening session you get new fresh steel that isn't fatigued and lasts better. Takamura R2 has had those issues sometimes, but it's an easy fix. 

I'v owned seven Tanaka knives and gifted one and seen several more. Never heard any issues. Here either. And like I said if you keep in mind not to abuse the knives and not force them, you'll be absolutely fine.

When learning sharpening you might scratch the blade face, but that happens to most of us sometimes and a knife will get marks and scratches anyway when you use it. If that bother's you, it's nothing that can't be fixed by yourself or you can always send the knife for a pro to fix it. 

Don't worry about it. Get the best suited knife to fit your preferences and budget. Some places like K&S will do the initial sharpening for you for free if asked. Then get the stone and start learning sharpening. Happy days!


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## Nemo (Jul 15, 2017)

I'm not sure if James does the initial sharpening for the "lite" series. You'd better ask him.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> Iron cladding is traditional. It's soft and durable and easy to grind off when thinning the blade, but is very prone to rust, or just discoloring when cutting any sort of acidic food if not rinsed and dried immediately. Like, in between each pepper/ onion.


:scared4: Give me a minute to recover from that thought.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

JaVa said:


> What foody meant was directed at abusing knives while cutting, not sharpening. Tanaka and Takamura are thin behind the edge and the hard thin steel can brake of small chips if abused on the cutting board like board walking, scraping sideways etc.


Ah I see, thank you. So, don't be an idiot Trig, look after your expensive knife, it's not a butchers cleaver. Got it.

With that in mind, I'll cross the Tojio DP off the list. I understand it has an excellent blade, but the F&F isn't great and I can get something with an even better blade too.

I'll go through all of the recommendations again and compile a list.



> Some places like K&S will do the initial sharpening for you for free if asked.


Oo that sounds like a good idea!


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 15, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I'm not sure if James does the initial sharpening for the "lite" series. You'd better ask him.



Ooh, that's a good thought. He'd probably do it if asked though, honestly. He's a great guy.



Triggaaar said:


> :scared4: Give me a minute to recover from that thought.



I think mine is excessively reactive, even by the standards of reactive iron, but it was literally "Dice an onion and three bell peppers, then was blade. Observe orange discoloration all over cladding". Nevermind a whole shift, or a whole meal prep. Also, I could dice a pepper, hold the blade in front of me, and see the juice discoloring it as I watched. Over a span of seconds. I just dealt with it for a while, then I got some stainless or stainless clad knives, and it was heavenly.

Now I have an Akebono coming Monday, which is iron-clad and causing me some consternation. I'll be forcing a patina on it before it touches those veggies though.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

JaVa said:


> JNS would have the Itinomonn (semi-) SS kasumi 210 gyuto, but unfortunately it's OOS ATM. Lovely high performance cutter that combines the best qualities of carbon and SS.
> http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-210mm-wa-gyuto/


Just checking on the Itinomonn - you say it combines the best of carbon and SS, but it doesn't mention carbon, isn't it just steel?


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## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

Damascus:
I understand that the many layers of steel around a carbon core are not only pretty, but protect the brittle and corrosive core. I had thought that makes the knife better than most alternatives (from a functional point of view - sharp, strong, rust resistant), but looking at all the recommendations here, I guess that's not the case, right? How come other knives are as good without all the layers of steel - do you really just need one layer of soft steel around a hard core?


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## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

So heres where Im at:
A 210mm gyuto.
With a pinch grip I might prefer a wa handle, but Id also appreciate the longer life of a western handle. Handle conclusion  undecided, perhaps just choose on other factors.

The options:
Tojiro DP range: Excellent blade for the price, but not a great finish. Very affordable (£56 for non Damascus), but Id like nicer.
Tojiro HSPS  a nice option, but I think Im looking at £170, which is pushing the budget.
Takamura R2 (red handle)  well recommended here, £153. Not cheap, but less than most rivals it seems.
Takamura VG10  Not yet sure of delivered price, maybe less than R2. Blade maybe not as good.
Tanaka VG10 damascus  over £140, and finish not great
Wakui kasumi  too expensive, even with the budget handle
Tanaka ginsan nashiji - all SS and B2 versions  very nice, Ive read the passaround thread, but £200 or more after shipping and tax is a bit much, unless theyre a lot better than the Takamura R2. The lite version would be about £170, which is still pushing the budget, and depends if the handle is good enough or not.
Itinomonn SS kasumi  maybe just over £170 all in, out of stock


----------



## Nemo (Jul 15, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Damascus:
> I understand that the many layers of steel around a carbon core are not only pretty, but protect the brittle and corrosive core. I had thought that makes the knife better than most alternatives (from a functional point of view - sharp, strong, rust resistant), but looking at all the recommendations here, I guess that's not the case, right? How come other knives are as good without all the layers of steel - do you really just need one layer of soft steel around a hard core?



This type of san mai damascus is really only for decoration. The physical properties are probably similar to any other soft SS or soft iron cladding. The upside is that it looks nice. The downside is that it costs a lot more. Also may need re-etching when you thin the blade wich is a bit of a pain.

FWIW, I have around 10 gyutos. Only one is damascus (and I bought it because it's a great blade, not because of the damascus).


----------



## OliverNuther (Jul 15, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> It feels like we're at a point of going in circles, so I may leave that as my final piece of advice. I'll be interested to see where you end up, though, and how you like it. Good luck!




I think Mike's right. We've covered a fair bit of ground here. Mate, buy a knife, use it and come back and tell us what you think about it. If you don't like it, buy another one. Leave Damascus for another day. There are no bad choices in anything that has been recommended to you. All the best.


----------



## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

Nemo said:


> This type of san mai damascus is really only for decoration. The physical properties are probably similar to any other soft SS or soft iron cladding. The upside is that it looks nice. The downside is that it costs a lot more. Also may need re-etching when you thin the blade wich is a bit of a pain.


Ah, I didn't realise it was nearly all for looks. Damascus is out then, I don't need it.



DanHumphrey said:


> It feels like we're at a point of going in circles, so I may leave that as my final piece of advice. I'll be interested to see where you end up, though, and how you like it. Good luck!


Thank you!


OliverNuther said:


> I think Mike's right.


He's not  I've come miles from where I started just 2 days ago, and learning new things all the time.

Of course I understand that I'm not the first and won't be the last to ask the same old questions, so it must get repetitive for you regulars very quickly. It's not repetitive for me though, it's all been a massive help and I'm very grateful.



> We've covered a fair bit of ground here.


Indeed.


> Mate, buy a knife, use it and come back and tell us what you think about it.


I will. I'd like to make the best choice I can though, and there are lots of good recommendations for me to choose from.


> If you don't like it, buy another one.


At the price of these knives, that's just not an option for me.


> Leave Damascus for another day.


Agreed 


> There are no bad choices in anything that has been recommended to you. All the best.


Thank you!


----------



## foody518 (Jul 15, 2017)

Relative to my earlier Tanaka and Takamura comments - all regarding regular home use, not abuse, and damage that was done by me or the first recipient in a matter of the first few minutes to hours of use. 2 VG10 Tanaka OOTB edges basically started crumbling as soon as you stated making board contact, and the Ginsan edge began divoting at various spots of the edge. These can come with at best some sort of wheel or belt finished microbevel that at best is still too thin to use OOTB. None of these received seller initial sharpening, and I'm simply keeping in mind that this would be a non-ideal to mildly startling effect for someone getting their first nice J-knife who is apprehensive to tackle sharpening a new knife. The Takamuras came pretty freaking sharp but got some chips visible to the naked eye without having to be within a few inches of the edge, which I would called chips not microchips. 
These are both the exception not the rule in terms of extent of initial edge fragility (and my Tojiro happened to have one of the most usable initial edges) of most the knives I own, which isn't a problem for someone who comfortabley sharpens and isn't apprehensive to move some metal, but not everyone who gets knife recs is already like that. The grind of those two makers is pretty excellent and performance oriented, but my actual recipient experience disinclines me from tossing them in the conversation for 'first knife recs'


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## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Relative to my earlier Tanaka and Takamura comments - all regarding regular home use, not abuse, and damage that was done by me or the first recipient in a matter of the first few minutes to hours of use. 2 VG10 Tanaka OOTB edges basically started crumbling as soon as you stated making board contact, and the Ginsan edge began divoting at various spots of the edge. These can come with at best some sort of wheel or belt finished microbevel that at best is still too thin to use OOTB. None of these received seller initial sharpening, and I'm simply keeping in mind that this would be a non-ideal to mildly startling effect for someone getting their first nice J-knife who is apprehensive to tackle sharpening a new knife. The Takamuras came pretty freaking sharp but got some chips visible to the naked eye without having to be within a few inches of the edge, which I would called chips not microchips.
> These are both the exception not the rule in terms of extent of initial edge fragility (and my Tojiro happened to have one of the most usable initial edges) of most the knives I own, which isn't a problem for someone who comfortabley sharpens and isn't apprehensive to move some metal, but not everyone who gets knife recs is already like that. The grind of those two makers is pretty excellent and performance oriented, but my actual recipient experience disinclines me from tossing them in the conversation for 'first knife recs'


Ah. Thank's for the warning.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 15, 2017)

In fairness, my Tanakas both came from K&S with an edge by James, so it's possible they are chippy OOTB and I just never experienced it. I wouldn't let that be the decider, though, not least because I'd order from James to get his various upgrades.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 15, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> So do you guys disagree with foody518?



I'm not sure the point are mutually exclusive, but rather emphasizing different things.

I think one of the hardest things for a new sharpener is understand is what is sharp. Experiencing truly sharp, so when you sharpen you can understand your goals and evaluate your short falls is extremely helpful in progressing from nothing to capable skills. That said, there is nothing stopping you from cleaning up a rough knife except the skill you'll want to develop anyway.

I wasn't going to chime in because I don't understand what's easily available to you or what the actual cost will be in UK. But....

Except for the UK complications, I'd suggest you consider JKI's Gesshin Stainless Wa-Gyuto. As part of their service they will do an initial sharpening so it arrives ready to use and as an example of what you will be trying to achieve when sharpening. It, in US pricing, is cheaper than a lot of what has been suggested to you, but roughly twice the Tojiro DP's typical sale price. I don't like the DP's fit and finish, by my values it is much less of a knife. That said, the counter argument is that it has better steel and you can correct its rough edges. Jon & his smith used good, but cheaper, steel and spent the budget on exquisite execution. They also left off the bling, no cladding, damascus pattern, just the basic stainless mono-steel. I feel this is the perfect beginner knife. It is solid middle ground design at a (relatively) budget price can either be a good permanent choice or a perfect reference point for subsequent purchases. (I.e. you'd be able to ask specifically for thinner, heavier, more belly, taller, or same with more bling, if you decided later to upgrade.)

James at K&S sounds like he offers the same initial setup and, if I understand correctly, is more accessible to you in UK. Maybe he offers something similar. Or, I'm sure Jon @JKI will be incredibly helpful and maybe the complications would be worth it in your case.


----------



## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> I think one of the hardest things for a new sharpener is understand is what is sharp. Experiencing truly sharp, so when you sharpen you can understand your goals and evaluate your short falls is extremely helpful in progressing from nothing to capable skills. That said, there is nothing stopping you from cleaning up a rough knife except the skill you'll want to develop anyway.


Thanks.



> I wasn't going to chime in because I don't understand what's easily available to you or what the actual cost will be in UK.


I listed what I think will be the price of those recommended so far in post #55 (not asking you to look, just mentioning it).



> Except for the UK complications, I'd suggest you consider JKI's Gesshin Stainless Wa-Gyuto. As part of their service they will do an initial sharpening so it arrives ready to use and as an example of what you will be trying to achieve when sharpening. It, in US pricing, is cheaper than a lot of what has been suggested to you, but roughly twice the Tojiro DP's typical sale price.


Looks nice, although at 58-59 hrc it's a bit softer than other blades mentioned, right?

The price of those recommended does jump significantly from the Tojiro DP at a bargain £56. The Gesshin is $125, plus shipping = $157. That's £120, which is £144 after tax. vs Takamura R2 (red handle) at £153 all in. Not cheap, but I feel I can stretch to those.



> I don't like the DP's fit and finish, by my values it is much less of a knife. That said, the counter argument is that it has better steel and you can correct its rough edges. Jon & his smith used good, but cheaper, steel and spent the budget on exquisite execution. They also left off the bling, no cladding, damascus pattern, just the basic stainless mono-steel. I feel this is the perfect beginner knife. It is solid middle ground design at a (relatively) budget price can either be a good permanent choice or a perfect reference point for subsequent purchases. (I.e. you'd be able to ask specifically for thinner, heavier, more belly, taller, or same with more bling, if you decided later to upgrade.)


Thanks.



> James at K&S sounds like he offers the same initial setup and, if I understand correctly, is more accessible to you in UK.


The same accessibility I think - shipping plus tax, so it's just the final price that I have to consider.

I'll have a look at existing threads on this site which discuss the knives listed here.


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## OliverNuther (Jul 15, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Of course I understand that I'm not the first and won't be the last to ask the same old questions, so it must get repetitive for you regulars very quickly. It's not repetitive for me though, it's all been a massive help and I'm very grateful.



The questions aren't a problem. Everyone here loves talking about knives and will happily answer your questions all day, myself included. But so far we've covered Western V Japanese, gyuto V santoku, which gyuto, sharpening and now Damascus. I think you might be overthinking the whole process which, in essence, boils down to buy a knife and cut something up with it. I can assure you that no matter how much thought you put into it you will NEVER buy the perfect knife or even the best knife for you. That's what keeps all of us coming back; we're all still looking too....


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## Triggaaar (Jul 15, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> so far we've covered Western V Japanese, gyuto V santoku, which gyuto, sharpening and now Damascus. I think you might be overthinking the whole process which, in essence, boils down to buy a knife and cut something up with it.


To be fair, I've bought a good few knives in the past, and cut (hacked) things up with them. Unfortunately a good few knives is very different from a few good knives. Covering western vs Japanese, gyuto vs santoku was all a bit necessary due to my lack of previous.



> I can assure you that no matter how much thought you put into it you will NEVER buy the perfect knife or even the best knife for you. That's what keeps all of us coming back; we're all still looking too....


I don't need the perfect knife, but I really can't afford to keep coming back. Perhaps it wouldn't matter which one you bought, because it will offer something, it'll be part of your learning experience and you'll later get something else anyway. And then you'll get something else and put them all on your magnetic rack.

As it is, I'm going to be in trouble when my better half finds out how much I've spent, regardless which one I go for (well ok, I'd get away with the DP, but there's no fun in that). There'll be a nice chopping board and stones too. My hope is that I enjoy the knife enough to take on more cooking duties, and then I'll be forgiven for spending too much. I believed you when you said there are no bad choices in anything that has been recommended, so I'm not worried about making a bad choice. But I do think some of the options would be better for me than others, so I'm just putting a bit of effort into making the best choice I can.

I think I'll contact James at K&S


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## OliverNuther (Jul 15, 2017)

Good choice. James will look after you.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 15, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> I think I'll contact James at K&S





OliverNuther said:


> Good choice. James will look after you.









Buy once, cry once, beg forgiveness once, but have something better than a DP.  And James will not steer you wrong.


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## WOK-a-holic (Jul 15, 2017)

check out, www.Japanesechef'sknife.com They have an excellent lineup of santoku knives.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 17, 2017)

JaVa said:


> Having read the thread a couple of times I think the right way to go could be a gyuto?
> ...
> Tanaka ginsan nashiji (all SS) or Tanaka B2 nashiji (SS clad carbon core) are the same knife, but they have different core steels. Tanaka B2 steel is the easiest to get sharp you'll ever come by. Tanaka ginsan is one of the best SS options around IMO (I love the stuff and that knife).





DanHumphrey said:


> As soon as I got my Tanaka from K&S and held it in a pinch grip, it all made sense. If you use the pinch grip, you'll probably prefer wa.
> 
> My recommendation would be a 210 wa-gyuto. It's mostly like a santoku with a tip, which will be handy for meats. The gyutos, even though they're "western" style knives, aren't designed for heavy-duty use on bones either. Personally, I think Tanakas from K&S are great starters, since they're high-quality, affordable (and thus great values), and the profile is a bit more like a traditional western knife so it's a bit easier to adjust (but make no mistake, it's not a big-belly Euro knife!). You can get the Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji "lite" from K&S for USD146 right now (probably less GBP)


Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji Gyuto 210 Lite ordered


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## Nemo (Jul 18, 2017)

I want to try the Ginsanko. Enjoy!


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## Dirt (Jul 18, 2017)

I do enjoy me some ginsan when it comes to as.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 18, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji Gyuto 210 Lite ordered



Congrats! Let us know what you think - I don't think anyone here has ordered one of those yet.


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## OliverNuther (Jul 18, 2017)

Good choice. It will be a revelation. While you are waiting for it to arrive, start thinking about what carbon knife to get next&#128519;


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## JaVa (Jul 18, 2017)

Yeah, Congrats! 
Good call. Do let us know what you think when you get it.



DanHumphrey said:


> Congrats! Let us know what you think - I don't think anyone here has ordered one of those yet.



I have the 240. 
...or did you mean the 210?


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## Triggaaar (Jul 18, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> Congrats! Let us know what you think





JaVa said:


> Yeah, Congrats!
> Good call. Do let us know what you think when you get it.


Of course. You will get a very short review from someone who knows nothing about knives. I predict that the review will go something like this:
"It's really nice, unlike anything I've used before" etc etc 
And thank you all for all the advice 



OliverNuther said:


> Good choice. It will be a revelation.





> While you are waiting for it to arrive, start thinking about what carbon knife to get next&#128519;


No, next on the list is a chopping board 

I'm looking at the European oak end grain boards from Andrei at mtmwood. Not sure on size though - the 3 choices are:
40cm x 30cm x 4cm
38cm x 29cm x 3cm
30cm x 20cm x 3cm

The 4cm board may be less prone to cracking, I'm not sure, but the disadvantage of that big board is how heavy it is to move around (I'm thinking of the wife, as always  )

Then after the board, I'll be thinking of sharpening stones.
Then after that, depending on how I'm getting along (if I still have a full complement of fingers), maybe a paring or utility knife.


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## Nemo (Jul 18, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> No, next on the list is a chopping board
> 
> Then after the board, I'll be thinking of sharpening stones.
> Then after that, depending on how I'm getting along (if I still have a full complement of fingers), maybe a paring or utility knife.



And then..... and then.... and then.... and while I think of it... I think that now you are beginning to appreciate how the rabbit hole works


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## Triggaaar (Jul 18, 2017)

Nemo said:


> And then..... and then.... and then.... and while I think of it... I think that now you are beginning to appreciate how the rabbit hole works



As long as I keep down to one nice chef's knife, I'm going to claim to be sane 

However, I might also want a more basic western chef's knife, like the Victorinox Fibrox, for my wife to smash butternut squash and bones with.


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## foody518 (Jul 18, 2017)

It's easier for thinner knives to go through butternut squash IMO


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## Triggaaar (Jul 18, 2017)

foody518 said:


> It's easier for thinner knives to go through butternut squash IMO


Easier is one thing, but they're more prone to damage, right? Is it recommended to use nice Japanese knives on all root veg?


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 18, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Of course. You will get a very short review from someone who knows nothing about knives. I predict that the review will go something like this:
> "It's really nice, unlike anything I've used before" etc etc



Even that is useful feedback, both to us for advising future newcomers and for future newcomers who search: "this guy was a beginner too and liked this knife" instead of "this guy was a beginner and hated this knife, or regretted it, or didn't think it cut better than his Wusthof". The latter is... unlikely, but feedback is good to close the loop. And you'll probably have more than "really nice"; you can mention what you've used it on, whether it discolored at all, and over time you can mention how long it stays sharp and how hard it is to sharpen. This is all valuable.


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## foody518 (Jul 18, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Easier is one thing, but they're more prone to damage, right? Is it recommended to use nice Japanese knives on all root veg?



I use some of the thinnest Japanese knives I have on root veg. You don't have to force through the cut. No hacking


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## Triggaaar (Jul 18, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> Even that is useful feedback, both to us for advising future newcomers and for future newcomers who search: "this guy was a beginner too and liked this knife" instead of "this guy was a beginner and hated this knife, or regretted it, or didn't think it cut better than his Wusthof".


Understood. I will provide my honest feedback, good or bad. Although I don't even have a Wusthof 



> And you'll probably have more than "really nice"; you can mention what you've used it on, whether it discolored at all, and over time you can mention how long it stays sharp and how hard it is to sharpen. This is all valuable.


Understood 



foody518 said:


> I use some of the thinnest Japanese knives I have on root veg. You don't have to force through the cut. No hacking


Noted, thanks.


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## Obsidiank (Jul 18, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> No, next on the list is a chopping board
> 
> I'm looking at the European oak end grain boards from Andrei at mtmwood. Not sure on size though - the 3 choices are:
> 40cm x 30cm x 4cm
> ...



I know there is a lot of love for end grain boards but I for one have never been a fan of maintaining the wood. It's on my list someday. I personally prefer rubber boards which is what i see in most sushi restaurants. Check out http://korin.com/HiSoft-Cutting-Board_3?sc=28&category=286082

They ship internationally.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 18, 2017)

Obsidiank said:


> I know there is a lot of love for end grain boards but I for one have never been a fan of maintaining the wood. It's on my list someday. I personally prefer rubber boards which is what i see in most sushi restaurants. Check out http://korin.com/HiSoft-Cutting-Board_3?sc=28&category=286082
> 
> They ship internationally.


Thanks, looks good. I can't say I'm thrilled at the idea of maintaining wood either, but looking after the steel is non negotiable 

What do you think of these (not hard like plastic, but not sure how they are on knives):
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MFEJ0XL/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## foody518 (Jul 18, 2017)

^ quite thin, looks like. I would be concerned about you cutting through the thing and impacting the surface underneath


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## Obsidiank (Jul 18, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Thanks, looks good. I can't say I'm thrilled at the idea of maintaining wood either, but looking after the steel is non negotiable
> 
> What do you think of these (not hard like plastic, but not sure how they are on knives):
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MFEJ0XL/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



For the price I would say go ahead and try it. The silicon would definitely be easy on the blade. However, it might be too soft..as in...your new knife would actually slice through it.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 18, 2017)

foody518 said:


> ^ quite thin, looks like. I would be concerned about you cutting through the thing and impacting the surface underneath


Really?


Obsidiank said:


> For the price I would say go ahead and try it. The silicon would definitely be easy on the blade.


I've already got one (different brand, but same sort of thing). It feels softish, so I'm hoping it will be ok on the blade, but I'm uneducated in these things.

EDIT - this is the one I have: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0112LH2SS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



> However, it might be too soft..as in...your new knife would actually slice through it.


That would just make me laugh to be honest. As long as the knife doesn't get damaged that is.

Is there a general consensus on what boards are best for Japanese knives: wood end grain, silicone, the soft Japanese silicon (http://korin.com/HiSoft-Cutting-Board_3?sc=28&category=286082)? Or are they all fine?


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## foody518 (Jul 18, 2017)

It's soft and flexible right? We're talking about knives with edges thin enough to sometimes stick in end grain wood. Watch what surface you put something like that on top of


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## Triggaaar (Jul 18, 2017)

foody518 said:


> It's soft and flexible right?


Yep.


> We're talking about knives with edges thin enough to sometimes stick in end grain wood. Watch what surface you put something like that on top of


So what boards should we use?


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## DaveInMesa (Jul 18, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Yep.
> So what boards should we use?


This is the kind of board the Japanese use: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LD57E7W/ref=twister_B07231YV81?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jul 18, 2017)

If people are truly used to low end knives, their new japanese workhorse might actually strike them as thick (as in thick spined)


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## Obsidiank (Jul 18, 2017)

https://www.cuttingboard.com/blog/which-cutting-boards-are-best-for-knives/


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## OliverNuther (Jul 19, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> I can't say I'm thrilled at the idea of maintaining wood either]



Honestly, there is very little required to properly maintain a good quality wooden board. Wipe down after use, spray with sanitiser or dilute vinegar, a bit of mineral oil occasionally, that's it. There are plenty of threads on board care. Don't let a perception of them being difficult to maintain deter you.


----------



## Triggaaar (Jul 19, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> Honestly, there is very little required to properly maintain a good quality wooden board. Wipe down after use, spray with sanitiser or dilute vinegar, a bit of mineral oil occasionally, that's it. There are plenty of threads on board care. Don't let a perception of them being difficult to maintain deter you.


Thanks. Will an end grain oak board, or silicone board be better for the blade though?

I've read every word of the link from Obsidiank, and the review seems to sit on the fence a lot, saying you get knife longevity or board longevity, never both, and it doesn't mention end grain wood. So it talks about soft wood vs hard wood, but not end grain.


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## Obsidiank (Jul 19, 2017)

http://www.therobotchef.com/2016/08/the-wooden-cutting-board-conundrum-end-grain-vs-edge-grain/

T - Are you an engineer by chance? I find your pursuit/optimization of choices interesting. It reminds me of a story my uncle use to tell me about how people today have too much information and that creates decision making analysis paralysis. I recommend not overthinking the cutting board situation. 

The pursuit of the perfect ratio of boardwear against knife wear is just not worth the effort. You can't go wrong with end grain. Your knife won't die with edge grain. It's a lot easier to just eliminate what's bad (glass, ceramic, plastic).

And pick what's good based on other factors like aesthetics, size, etc. 

Blades will dull. At a microscopic/molecular level the metal will wear/bend no matter how much softer the material is it rubs against and you will need to sharpen. 

I use ponder this choice too because the goal was to prolong edge retention...which was because I didn't want to sharpen my knives. Now that I have some experience and sharpen my knives frequently, I rarely think about how my cutting board affects my knives. 

I love the boards the boardsmith makes. They are a vendor in the forum. Check them out.


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## Obsidiank (Jul 19, 2017)

OliverNuther said:


> Honestly, there is very little required to properly maintain a good quality wooden board. Wipe down after use, spray with sanitiser or dilute vinegar, a bit of mineral oil occasionally, that's it. There are plenty of threads on board care. Don't let a perception of them being difficult to maintain deter you.



I've told myself this same thing...but I forget to oil it...or I leave it in the sink by accident...

every wooden board I've ever owned has cracked...

that's my story..


----------



## Nemo (Jul 19, 2017)

Maybe need a thicker board?


----------



## Obsidiank (Jul 19, 2017)

hisoft...love the stuff.


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## DanHumphrey (Jul 19, 2017)

Obsidiank said:


> I've told myself this same thing...but I forget to oil it...or I leave it in the sink by accident...
> 
> every wooden board I've ever owned has cracked...
> 
> that's my story..



Get one that's too big to fit in the sink. Problem solved.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jul 19, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> Get one that's too big to fit in the sink. Problem solved.



I so hear ya, that really works!


----------



## Triggaaar (Jul 19, 2017)

Obsidiank said:


> http://www.therobotchef.com/2016/08/the-wooden-cutting-board-conundrum-end-grain-vs-edge-grain/


Good article, thanks.



> T - Are you an engineer by chance?


I just scanned up the page to think who you were referring to - wait a minute, you mean me 


> I find your pursuit/optimization of choices interesting. It reminds me of a story my uncle use to tell me about how people today have too much information and that creates decision making analysis paralysis.


No I'm not an engineer. I guess I'm naturally fairly geeky, and like the details of these things. I enjoy the researching etc. I know what you mean about analysis paralysis, I expect that does happen to me sometimes, although in my defense your honour, I managed to order my knife 4 days from my first post  I had actually ordered a knife before I found the forum, which I cancelled soon after posting.



> The pursuit of the perfect ratio of boardwear against knife wear is just not worth the effort. You can't go wrong with end grain. Your knife won't die with edge grain. It's a lot easier to just eliminate what's bad (glass, ceramic, plastic).
> 
> And pick what's good based on other factors like aesthetics, size, etc.


Thanks.



> I use ponder this choice too because the goal was to prolong edge retention...which was because I didn't want to sharpen my knives. Now that I have some experience and sharpen my knives frequently, I rarely think about how my cutting board affects my knives.


Noted. There will be a predictable slow and protracted stone buying decision shortly 



> I love the boards the boardsmith makes. They are a vendor in the forum. Check them out.


Yeah I've had a look, but I think I'd go for one from mtmwood, as I'm not in the US.


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## foody518 (Jul 19, 2017)

Still really feeling like whatever you get (in terms of knife-friendliness) from that super thin silicone mat is going to be in large part a factor of whatever you are setting it on


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## Triggaaar (Jul 19, 2017)

foody518 said:


> Still really feeling like whatever you get (in terms of knife-friendliness) from that super thin silicone mat is going to be in large part a factor of whatever you are setting it on


If I understand, you're saying that the blade will go all the way through the silicone mat and hit my work surface? I can't see how that's possible. If it goes through the food easily, then I won't need to push hard, and if I don't push hard then it's not going to go through 7mm of silicon.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 19, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> ... Yeah I've had a look, but I think I'd go for one from mtmwood, as I'm not in the US.



I remember watching his videos when he first showed up around here. I'm sure you can't go wrong with his craftsmanship, whether you chose simple or fancier.

I would worry about Oak though, as it tends to be hard, porous, and have bands of different density. Maple seems to be the go to (of US woods), with Cherry & Walnut, and by extension other fruit woods, seems to be common alternatives for boards.

We have a simple Maple BoardSmith board that is wonderful craftsmanship and a wonderful surface. However my wife hates it because it is too tall (thick) and too heavy for her and I don't like it much because it is too small to be pleasant in use. I recently picked up a larger thinner board (on sale from a internet kitchen supply) and we both like it better in many ways, but the surface is atrocious. I haven't decided if it is mostly the wood (Acacia) or the poor finish. But despite an hour with a power sander and several applications of mineral oil / beeswax board treatment it is rough and thirsty. I can't imagine MTM will have any of those problems.

PS- America's Test Kitchen, a US cooking show, says the minimum useful cutting board size is 15" x 20", (about 38cm x 50cm), and I find I agree. Stuff is always falling off with our old 12" x 18" one. (I lust after some of the 3' x 4' giants I've seen on cooking TV, but we don't have enough counter space.)


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## foody518 (Jul 19, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> If I understand, you're saying that the blade will go all the way through the silicone mat and hit my work surface? I can't see how that's possible. If it goes through the food easily, then I won't need to push hard, and if I don't push hard then it's not going to go through 7mm of silicon.



I'm concerned about the cut resistance of flexible silicone vs thin keen edges. 
Hard Plastic boards show cut lines after use. So do edge grain wood boards and end grain (if you look hard enough). A good portion of typical edge wear is from repetitive board contact, not from cutting through the actual vegetable/fruit/meat/what have you
Doesn't have to be all at once, but over repeated usage in the same areas, I think that deepening cuts and grooves is likely, and in that light, 7mm is not that much, though better than the original mental picture I had in mind


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## Triggaaar (Jul 19, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> I would worry about Oak though, as it tends to be hard, porous, and have bands of different density. Maple seems to be the go to (of US woods), with Cherry & Walnut, and by extension other fruit woods, seems to be common alternatives for boards.


In Andrei's opinion, European oak is better than maple etc, as maple (if you mean the hard variety) is harder. I can understand that maple is popular in the US, as it's a local wood.



> We have a simple Maple BoardSmith board that is wonderful craftsmanship and a wonderful surface. However my wife hates it because it is too tall (thick) and too heavy for her


Yeah, weight is a consideration.



> PS- America's Test Kitchen, a US cooking show, says the minimum useful cutting board size is 15" x 20", (about 38cm x 50cm), and I find I agree.


Yeah I saw that, thanks.



foody518 said:


> I'm concerned about the cut resistance of flexible silicone vs thin keen edges.


Well if I cut through it I'll find it funny and come here and say you were right 



> A good portion of typical edge wear is from repetitive board contact, not from cutting through the actual vegetable/fruit/meat/what have you


Yeah, that's why I want a board that's kind to the knife. I do accept that it will get dull regardless though, and I'll have to learn to sharpen, so how long that takes won't be the be all and end all.



> Doesn't have to be all at once, but over repeated usage in the same areas, I think that deepening cuts and grooves is likely, and in that light, 7mm (highest or lowest point of textured surface?) is not that much


That's cool, I'll notice if it's happening, it won't be a case of the knife going straight through to the surface underneath.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 19, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> ... Noted. There will be a predictable slow and protracted stone buying decision shortly  ....



(Sorry, probably should have combined replies.)

Since you're not in the US, "call Jon @ JKI and buy what he suggests" isn't as good of a choice for you. I'll bet, based on his reputation, "call Maxim @ JNS and buy what he suggests" would be a European equivalent. I think you'd do well with his guidance, though I guess there's the *outside* chance you might do better by agonizing over your choice.  (Besides he's also a site supporter.)


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## JaVa (Jul 19, 2017)

I found an inch thick used Ikea beech edge grain table they used to sell. I sanded the lacquer finish of, cut it to right size about 55x65cm. It's quite big and I love that. There's so much room to work. 

I treated it with six thick coats of tung oil from both sides and let it dry for a week to make sure it was all settled. It sits on the kitchen counter always. After use I just wipe it clean and leave it there for next time. Beech seems to hold up well. It's not too soft or hard. Best that I've used, at least works for me. Every month I wipe it down with vinegar to freshen up the surface and apply a new coat of tung oil and let it dry for the night.

I know everyones on the end grain cutting board train and I get the benefits, but I just like the feel of an edge grain board more (given it's not too hard). 

I can't imagine a silicone board would have a very positive feel to it when cutting. Just guessing though as I've never used one.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 19, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> I'll bet, based on his reputation, "call Maxim @ JNS and buy what he suggests" would be a European equivalent.


Thanks 



JaVa said:


> I can't imagine a silicone board would have a very positive feel to it when cutting. Just guessing though as I've never used one.


Well I've never tried with a sharp knife. I've got a small edge grain board I can compare it with. If that feels a lot better, I'll go wood.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 19, 2017)

I anticipate wanting to use the new knife all the time, while trying to also look after it. However, sharing the kitchen with my wife, and sometimes having to rush the cooking, the looking after bit won't always be easy. So although we still have a collection of (poor quality) old knives to turn to, I'd like to have a half decent Western Chef's knife available.

I'm basically thinking of something like the Victorinox Fibrox (C655), but I hate the look of the handle, so I assume the Rosewood version (C605) uses the same blade? It's £36.
There's not anything else as good in that price range is there?


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## foody518 (Jul 19, 2017)

You're getting a stainless knife, no? What are your thoughts of when or for what something like a Victorinox will be used?

How big is the price difference in your area between the Vic and Tojiro DP?


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 19, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> ... I'd like to have a half decent Western Chef's knife available.
> 
> I'm basically thinking of something like the Victorinox Fibrox (C655), but I hate the look of the handle, so I assume the Rosewood version (C605) uses the same blade? It's £36.
> There's not anything else as good in that price range is there?



The Victorinox is (usually?) rated as one of the best inexpensive knives. It's pretty tolerant of abuse, i.e. doesn't easily rust if left wet or dirty, (not that you can whack a tile counter without chipping it.) It is thinner at the spine than most Western Chef knives (that are readily available here), so not as sturdy for prying or splitting (wedging) things apart. The steel is less obnoxious to sharpen than the Henckels International (we were gifted long long ago) and it doesn't have the bolster getting in the way either.

That said, I like a fairly flat blade and it's belly has always driven me crazy. OTOH- my wife's cutting style requires that belly and she won't even try our (my) new Gesshin Stainless Gyuto. (It's OK, she's terrible about leaving the knife dirty anyway.  )

I can't think why the rosewood handle would use different steel and I *assume* the profile is the same. Hopefully someone knows for sure.

Dave


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## Obsidiank (Jul 19, 2017)

I have the victorinox. I used it to debone anything that has bones. I abuse the sh***t out of it. Ten minutes on stones and it's back to great shape. Best 35 bucks I've spent.


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## James12 (Jul 20, 2017)

I prefer wood cutting boards.


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## fatboylim (Jul 20, 2017)

DanHumphrey said:


> Get one that's too big to fit in the sink. Problem solved.
> 
> 
> > I did the sane thing! Worked well


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## Triggaaar (Jul 20, 2017)

foody518 said:


> You're getting a stainless knife, no? What are your thoughts of when or for what something like a Victorinox will be used?


When food is being rushed and utensils are not being gently placed down, but unceremoniously dumped, when there maybe chicken bones present, when the knife might go longer without being washed and dried etc.



> How big is the price difference in your area between the Vic and Tojiro DP?


Not a huge amount, £41 for the rosewood Vic, delivered, (£34 for fibrox), £57 for the Tojiro. While I would expect to like the Tojiro more, I was thinking the soft steel of the Vic would be able to take more abuse.



Obsidiank said:


> I have the victorinox. I used it to debone anything that has bones. I abuse the sh***t out of it. Ten minutes on stones and it's back to great shape. Best 35 bucks I've spent.


This is the sort of thing I had in mind. I'm put of by the plastic handle though (I know it works), so I thought the same in rosewood could work.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 20, 2017)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> The Victorinox is (usually?) rated as one of the best inexpensive knives. It's pretty tolerant of abuse, i.e. doesn't easily rust if left wet or dirty, (not that you can whack a tile counter without chipping it.) It is thinner at the spine than most Western Chef knives (that are readily available here), so not as sturdy for prying or splitting (wedging) things apart. The steel is less obnoxious to sharpen than the Henckels International (we were gifted long long ago) and it doesn't have the bolster getting in the way either.


Sounds good.



> That said, I like a fairly flat blade and it's belly has always driven me crazy.


Oh I hadn't realised that from the pictures. There's a store not to far where I can check them - they don't have the rosewood in stock, but I can check what the blade is like on the fibrox.


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## Atrain316 (Jul 20, 2017)

Victorinox is my old lady's favorite knife I just think they are cool not saying I have the best knives but I got a shun sora knife and a miyabi and a knife from north arm knives and victorinox is her go to knife for just about everything


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## Atrain316 (Jul 20, 2017)

Fibrox handle


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## Nemo (Jul 20, 2017)

I have a Vic lamb knife (6 inch boing knife). It's great for jointing a chook or getting the meat off a leg of lamb before carving. All the dings in the edge just go away with a couple of strokes on a steel.


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## foody518 (Jul 20, 2017)

Are you going through chicken bones or are you going through the joints?


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## Triggaaar (Jul 20, 2017)

Atrain316 said:


> Fibrox handle


What's wrong with the rosewood?



foody518 said:


> Are you going through chicken bones or are you going through the joints?


Just the joints. I imagine many J knives can do that and survive if treated carefully, but generally speaking, a softer western style knife can cope with more abuse, right?


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## Nemo (Jul 20, 2017)

Joints. I don't think it wou actully go through a substantial bone .


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## Triggaaar (Jul 21, 2017)

A package has arrived from Australia 

As of this moment, I'm typing nice and quickly, with a full compliment of fingers


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## JaVa (Jul 21, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> A package has arrived from Australia
> 
> As of this moment, I'm typing nice and quickly, with a full compliment of fingers



No pics? Didn't happen! 

...Also about the knife. :lol2:


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## Triggaaar (Jul 21, 2017)

JaVa said:


> No pics? Didn't happen!


I'll do the pics. I've groped the knife a good amount (nice), but not used it yet. Partly because I've got work to finish, and also because my wife (who already thinks I'm mad) will lose all faith if she sees me dicing veg in the day for no reason.


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## sharptools (Jul 21, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> I'll do the pics. I've groped the knife a good amount (nice), but not used it yet. Partly because I've got work to finish, and also because my wife (who already thinks I'm mad) will lose all faith if she sees me dicing veg in the day for no reason.



I just pretend I really want to have carrot sticks for a snack.


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## Triggaaar (Jul 22, 2017)

JaVa said:


> No pics? Didn't happen!


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## TheCaptain (Jul 22, 2017)

That's what we're talking about!


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## parbaked (Jul 22, 2017)

Good Score!


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## Triggaaar (Jul 22, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> That's what we're talking about!





parbaked said:


> Good Score!


Thanks. What does that mean? 


Knife Skills

Are there any YT channels you guys would recommend for learning knife skills with a gyuto?


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## Triggaaar (Jul 22, 2017)

Running total:

Number of meals prepared: 1
Number of complete digits: 10


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## khashy (Jul 22, 2017)

Triggaaar said:


> Thanks. What does that mean?
> 
> 
> Knife Skills
> ...



Here you go:

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx1U-bja3i8[/video]


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## Triggaaar (Jul 22, 2017)

khashy said:


> Here you go:
> 
> [video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx1U-bja3i8[/video]


Thank you


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## Atrain316 (Jul 22, 2017)

Nothing wrong with rosewood that I know of but I can't speak for comfort on them I only got my fibrox knives because I was able to get the whole block and knife set for 80 dollars I'm a bargain hunter


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## Triggaaar (Jul 22, 2017)

Atrain316 said:


> I only got my fibrox knives because I was able to get the whole block and knife set for 80 dollars I'm a bargain hunter


Are they any good, or is there better for similar money?


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## Atrain316 (Jul 22, 2017)

It's a great beater knife and can take abuse and used more then a miyabi and shun sora and north arm knife


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