# Which knife should I buy? Zwilling Pro vs Wustof Classic Ikon, and questionnaire.



## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 21, 2018)

This is kind of a two part post, though it's all about which knives I should buy. I'm going to fill this out so all the info is covered, and maybe I'll get some suggestions for knives I haven't run across yet too. I've sort of narrowed it down to the Zwilling Pro and the Wustof Classic Ikon, so if anyone has experience with either of those I'd love to hear what you think. I've been able to kind of test out the feel of the Pro and I like the classic handle shape and half bolster, but I haven't been able to give the more ergonomic handle of the Classic Ikon a go yet so I'm not sure if I'd like it. Any input would be much appreciated.

*LOCATION*
I'm located in the US.


*KNIFE TYPE*

*What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?* 
It's an upgrade from some fairly crappy knives so to start: a chef's knife, a paring knife, and a serrated bread knife. Maybe a utility or boning knife too depending on whether or not you think I need it to break down chickens more easily.

*Are you right or left handed?* Lefty

*Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?* 
Western handle. Partially because lefty versions of Japanese knives are either hard to get or really expensive when you can.

*What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?* 
Eight or nine inch chef, 3.5 or 4 inch paring, eight or nine inch serrated, and a 5 or 6 inch utility/boning

*Do you require a stainless knife?* No

*What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?* 
Since the chef knife will be the most expensive let's say $200. I'm thinking like 450-550 for the three or four knives, a steel, blade guards, and a roll.



*KNIFE USE*

*Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?* Primarily in home kitchens though I'll be putting them through their paces, just not doing restaurant level volume.

*What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)?*
I'm getting multiple knives so I don't necessarily need one that covers a ton of uses. The only question is whether I should get a boning or utility knife for breaking down poultry or if I should just go at it with the chef knife.

*What knife, if any, are you replacing?* Replacing a ****** set of Farberware knives, so anything is an upgrade.

*Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?* Pinch

*What cutting motions do you primarily use?* 
I use the rock most often, and the push cut would probably be my next most commonly used cut.

*What improvements do you want from your current knife?* 
There's nothing specific I can really point out since everything will be improved no matter what knife I get. I suppose I'm most looking for a knife that's heavier (sturdier), a better handle, and better food release. Better edge retention is a good thing, but since I'll be sharpening them myself and can do it whenever they need it, it's not a major point of contention.



*KNIFE MAINTENANCE*

*Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?* 
Yes. Currently poly, but want to pick up a wood when I get new knives.

*Do you sharpen your own knives?* 
Yes



*
SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS *
Like I mentioned at the beginning I'm looking for a full compliment of knives as a replacement for what I have now, and I've tentatively narrowed it down to the Zwilling Pro and the Wustof Ikon. If you've used either, or both, of them and can point out the pros and cons, that would help me. If you have any other knife suggestions that I may have overlooked I'm more than happy to hear those too.


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## chiffonodd (Jan 21, 2018)

Just FYI you shouldn't have too much trouble checking out jknives as a lefty - just look for even or even-ish grinds and an octo handle (it's a pronounced assymetrical grind and D handles that can create issues). Can be many orders of magnitude more fun to cook with than a german clunker 

As for specific recommendations, I'll let an actual lefty pipe up. :knife:


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## daveb (Jan 21, 2018)

Welcome.

Among the German knives I like the Messermeister Meridian series the most. They are balanced a little towards the blade (blade heavy) which makes them easier to work with, especially with any serious amount of use. They also have a semi-bolster so its much better for sharpening than a Wustie Classic though priced about the same. 

I've had Wustie Ikons and while I like them they are balanced at the handle and cost some 25% more than the Classic or Messermeister. The handle is different but it's neither a positive or negative. Of your two choices they would be my preference.

IMO Zwilling/Henckels does not know where they want to be in the knife world. The Four Star is the best they ever put out. Since then they've tried to hit every market with knives that run from Meh to crap. Zwilling Kramer and Zwilling Miyabi may be exceptions.

Suggest that you start your new adventure with a single chef knife to get a feel for what you like. Also suggest you expand your search and try a Japanese knife or three. Most of the posters on here have "graduated" from the Euro knives and prefer the Japanese for the harder steels, better edges and of course the much cooler handles.


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## chinacats (Jan 21, 2018)

What Dave said...except to say Henckels sctuslly did make some great knives around 50+ years ago.


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## Benuser (Jan 21, 2018)

If you insist on getting a German knife: some models of the former Cordon Bleu series have now migrated to the Classics:
https://www.wuesthof.com/international/products/Product-details/cook-s-knife-4581-23
Lighter, balance point at the bolster, no fingerguard.

Left-handed versions of the Masahiro, both the stainless and the carbons, are within your budget:

https://www.knifemerchant.com/products.asp?manufacturerID=11


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

Thanks, glad to be here.

I've noticed that people around here tend to prefer the Japanese knives - I assumed it was a novelty more than a steel preference or aesthetics. For me it would have nothing to do with "cooler" handles because, from my admittedly limited experience with them, I hate everything about traditional Japanese knife handles: the size disparity between handle and steel, no transition into the blade, etc. If I was a hammer-gripper that never used a pinch grip I might not feel so strongly, but that's not me. Chiffonodd mentioned D and octagonal handles and even lefty specific models like the ones I've tried from Shun don't work for me. I also can't get used to the asymmetrical grinds and the "steer" they have so I'd prefer not to use them. Do you know of any Japanese brands that have symmetrical grinds? 

You mentioned harder steels and better edges on Japanese knives, but I don't see edge retention as a deal breaker since I don't mind taking a steel to the knife occasionally and when they need to be sharpened I'll be taking care of that myself. 

To be fair to the Japanese knife lovers out there, I have taken a real hard look at the Masahiros and if I had to throw a line of Japanese knives in the mix those would be it based on aesthetics. I've also looked into Tojiro, Masamoto, and Misono lines, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about the blade profiles as opposed to the European ones I'm already accustomed to.

What is it about German knives, Zwilling/Henckels in particular, that you don't like, steel choice, business strategy, blade profile...?


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Left-handed versions of the Masahiro, both the stainless and the carbons, are within your budget




Masahiro is one of the Japanese brands that was on my short list. In your opinion, what are some benefits of Masahiros? What are some other brands to look into? Honestly the crazy asymmetry in the Masahiros is what made me disregard them. Not for difficulty in sharpening, but because it causes the knife to roll to one side and cut unevenly.


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

chinacats said:


> What Dave said...except to say Henckels sctuslly did make some great knives around 50+ years ago.



What makes them less desirable now, 50+ years later?


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

chiffonodd said:


> Can be many orders of magnitude more fun to cook with than a german clunker



What makes them more fun to use?

Do you know of any brands off the top of your head that don't have such mismatched angles on the grind?


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## Benuser (Jan 22, 2018)

SlickWillyTFCF said:


> Masahiro is one of the Japanese brands that was on my short list. In your opinion, what are some benefits of Masahiros? What are some other brands to look into?



Speaking only about the carbons: excellent steel, high edge retention, quite some bite, low reactivity. Asymmetry: strongly biased. Almost neutral balance, low tip. Good price.

Misono does offer left versions as well for all series. Ask Mr Iwahara from japanesechefsknife.com, koki @ kencrest.us

Loosen your grip and steering should be no problem once you have adequately sharpened the blade.

With knives and with a lot of other things: don't rely on your first impression.


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## chiffonodd (Jan 22, 2018)

SlickWillyTFCF said:


> What makes them more fun to use?



A number of factors, but the most salient when it comes to performance are probably thinner grinds overall, harder and finer-grained steel that can handle more extreme edge geometries, lighter and more nimble, etc. 

This is a bit of a generalization and i am talking on average here, but traditional euro knives can feel like driving a mini van. J knives are more like a sports car.


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## Nemo (Jan 22, 2018)

I would add thst food release is much better for most Japanese knives. Not sure if this holds true for left handers using a right haner ground knife though.


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## Benuser (Jan 22, 2018)

chiffonodd said:


> A number of factors, but the most salient when it comes to performance are probably thinner grinds overall, harder and finer-grained steel that can handle more extreme edge geometries, lighter and more nimble, etc.
> 
> This is a bit of a generalization and i am talking on average here, but traditional euro knives can feel like driving a mini van. J knives are more like a sports car.


I would add that modern, industrial German knives tend to have a high tip which makes that tip unusable if you aren't very tall and working behind a far too low counter. And most are handle-heavy which only rock-choppers will like.


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

SlickWillyTFCF said:


> What makes them less desirable now, 50+ years later?



I grew up using Henckels and thought they were very good knives...in fact i still have a set from the early 70's as well as a chefs knife from the turn of the century. The shapes were better then imo...pointier and flatter...the problem is the soft steel that rolls. I enjoy scooping product off the board and the soft stainless rolls. You can steel it back into shape but when you do it weakens the edge. I prefer a harder steel that will microchip instead. Harder steel of good quality is much easier to sharpen then soft stainless. Just a preference but it seems to line up with most of the other knuts around here. Btw, my personal favorite knife is made in Germany and I'm having another made there now but it is carbon high hardness steel made to a profile I enjoy (Tilman Leder).

One other note to think about is that asymmetry is really no big deal. At around 70/30 steering is almost undetectable and sharpening is only a matter of following the bevels...but release is usually better.

Cheers in whatever you decide.


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

Nemo said:


> ...left handers using a right haner ground knife...



It most certainly does not hold true if you're using a knife ground for the other hand. The flat/nearly flat side that would normally be in contact with the main part of the food you're cutting is instead in contact with the piece you're slicing off and it hangs on for dear life. I found this out a number of years ago when I was trying out a friends Shun at work one day (I'm a bartender, he's a chef).


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

chinacats said:


> The shapes were better then imo...pointier and flatter..., my personal favorite knife is made in Germany and I'm having another made there now but it is carbon high hardness steel made to a profile I enjoy (Tilman Leder).
> 
> One other note to think about is that asymmetry is really no big deal. At around 70/30 steering is almost undetectable and sharpening is only a matter of following the bevels...but release is usually better.
> 
> Cheers in whatever you decide.




I've noticed the change in shapes and how much more belly the newer German profiles have. From what I've seen and heard the older ones more closely resembled a French profile.

Your favorite is a high carbon steel, as in have to wipe it down or it will rust carbon steel? I've tossed around the idea of getting one of those because the idea of carbon steel doesn't scare me and the benefits of the steel are enough to outweigh any potential downside like the possibility of rusting. The only problem is that I haven't found any glowing reviews for any carbon steel knives other than the Zwilling Kramer.

I guess the asymmetric knives I've tried have all been 80/20. The no-name deba I have steers something awful, and I've used it enough that I thought I'd be able to get the hang of it, but no such luck. The only reason I use it anymore is because it's heftier than the other **** knives I have. The combination of the handle and the asymmetric grind make it less than pleasing to use. Good to know that 70/30 grinds have noticeably less steer. I'll have to check into those a bit more.

Thanks for all the input. It's definitely narrowing down the possibilities.

P.S. where would someone look for Tilman Leder knives?


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

Tilman's a custom knife maker so your have to contact him directly... there was one on b/s/t recently but pretty sure it has already sold.

Don't let carbon scare you...I think all knives should be wiped dry and put away when finished so to me it's just normal kitchen habits...

Debas are usually 100/0 and yes they steer like hell... actually 80/20 shouldn't steer too bad either but that also depends on the thickness of a knife... the thinner it is the less steering you're likely to notice.

Yes, kind of sad about modern German profiles... they were much better some time ago though I can't say when that changed.


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## Benuser (Jan 22, 2018)

SlickWillyTFCF said:


> I've noticed the change in shapes and how much more belly the newer German profiles have. From what I've seen and heard the older ones more closely resembled a French profile.
> 
> Your favorite is a high carbon steel, as in have to wipe it down or it will rust carbon steel? I've tossed around the idea of getting one of those because the idea of carbon steel doesn't scare me and the benefits of the steel are enough to outweigh any potential downside like the possibility of rusting. The only problem is that I haven't found any glowing reviews for any carbon steel knives other than the Zwilling Kramer.
> 
> ...


Henckels from the beginning of the 20th century followed the French (Sabatier) pattern.
See how close this Robert Herder 1922 is to the old the French, less belly than modern Thiers-Issard:



Modern Germans have the tip almost in line with the spine. See this Zwilling 1731

https://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-zwilling-twin-1731-koksmes.htm


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Modern Germans have the tip almost in line with the spine.



Which seems fine if all you do is rock the knife. The Zwilling Pro has a very pronounced belly on their chef knife, but they also offer what they call the "Traditional Chef Knife" which is much closer to the French style. 
Look at the huge belly on this one https://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=7611 versus the much more classically shaped "traditional" one here https://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=8718


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

Do any of you have experience or knowledge of Kikuichi Elite Carbon knives?


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## Benuser (Jan 22, 2018)

Steel is from the SK series, OK but by far inferior to the Masahiro Virgin or Misono Swedish. Expect substantially higher amounts of contaminants like sulphur. Similar to Fujiwara FKH at half of the price. Haven't seen left-handed versions so far.


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## esoo (Jan 22, 2018)

Just to throw it in here - I had the Zwillng Diplome 8 Chefs for a while and thought it was a decent rock chopping knife. The balance point is on the bolster which makes it a touch handle heavy, but nice enough steel for the price.


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## Benuser (Jan 22, 2018)

esoo said:


> Just to throw it in here - I had the Zwillng Diplome 8 Chefs for a while and thought it was a decent rock chopping knife. The balance point is on the bolster which makes it a touch handle heavy, but nice enough steel for the price.



What steel is it again?


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## esoo (Jan 22, 2018)

FC61 - which is supposedly a version of 13C26/AEB-L. OOTB sharpness was decent, and I had taken it to the stones once and it took a nice enough edge. Not sure about retention though.


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

SlickWillyTFCF said:


> Do any of you have experience or knowledge of Kikuichi Elite Carbon knives?



Kikuichi=overpriced and as stated not the best steel


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## K813zra (Jan 22, 2018)

esoo said:


> FC61 - which is supposedly a version of 13C26/AEB-L. OOTB sharpness was decent, and I had taken it to the stones once and it took a nice enough edge. Not sure about retention though.



The FC61 steel, whatever it happens to be, is actually a fairly nice steel as treated. I have a few Miyabi knives with it and like it well enough. Tough, decent edge retention, easy to sharpen and in-law proof.


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Steel is from the SK series, OK but by far inferior to the Masahiro Virgin or Misono Swedish. Expect substantially higher amounts of contaminants like sulphur. Similar to Fujiwara FKH at half of the price. Haven't seen left-handed versions so far.



Haven't seen left-handed versions of the Kikuichi? The grind on the Elite Carbon is symmetrical from what I can tell so there aren't handed versions. I would prefer the Masahiro, but that 80/20 grind is something I'm trying to stay away from. 

Are Misono good knives overall? The Swedish are less expensive than both the Kikuichi and Masahiro so it's a better value if the steel is better. Do you know what types of steel each version uses?

Edit: just looked into the Misono and they are 70/30 and I can't find any that are left-handed. I know they should be easy enough to re-profile to make left-handed, but I don't want to have to put that much effort into a new knife to make it usable.


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## esoo (Jan 22, 2018)

SlickWillyTFCF said:


> Edit: just looked into the Misono and they are 70/30 and I can't find any that are left-handed. I know they should be easy enough to re-profile to make left-handed, but I don't want to have to put that much effort into a new knife to make it usable.



I haven't used the Misono lefty Swedish yet as mine is in the mail, but if you order for JCK, you can order a true lefty version.


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## supersayan3 (Jan 22, 2018)

Wustof Classic Ikon have one of the best handles ever.
Better go with a Japanese knife.
Masahiro stainless, mv and mvh lines with the plastic Pom handles, much better choices.
Kikuichi resells knives, doesn't produce as far as I know.


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

supersayan3 said:


> ...Masahiro...



That brings us back to the offset grind, 80/20 in the case of Masahiro, and I'm trying to stay away from that. I'm willing to forego German knives in favor of Japanese, but I would rather stick with a double bevel grind.


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

esoo said:


> ...mine is in the mail...



I'll keep an eye out for your post with your first impressions and the later review.


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

Perhaps this post will help your understanding of asymmetry.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-–-The-REAL-DEAL


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

I understand symmetry fine. Perhaps my use of the term 'double bevel' was slightly incorrect, but semantics aside I realize most Japanese knives have a double bevel and it's the asymmetry of the cutting edge angles that cause steer (the closer to 50/50 you get the less steer there is) and that's what I'm trying to avoid altogether. It adds another level of difficulty to sharpening too but I'm not worried about that, just the feel in using it.


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

FWIW, jmo but doubt you'd notice any steering until around 90/10 unless you had a very chunky knife. Also pretty sure I've never seen a 50/50 J-knife. If you're really worried about it you should probably just buy a laser and deal with a bit of a stiction...


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## esoo (Jan 22, 2018)

Takedas are a 50/50 grind.

A laser doesn't solve the problem - they still grind them "flat" on one side and either angled or convex on the other for the J-knives. For example, this pic of a Sakai Yusuke (taken from BluewayJapan and then rotated blade down)





This is the pic of the 100g 210, which is definitely laser territory.


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

The takes a I owned was not 50/50...


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## esoo (Jan 22, 2018)

I've never held a Takeda - I'm just going by choil shots, such as this:





Yes there is some asymetry in the secondary bevels, but that could be "fixed", and is more minor compared to what you see in the Yusuke (which you really can't do much about from a lefty perspective)


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

When you 'fix' that you mess up the geometry that you paid for...and that takeda doesn't have the classic geometry it used to be known for and why people want old Takedas rather than new ones. Again, not 50/50.


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## esoo (Jan 22, 2018)

Well, that picture was apparently taken from the NAS Takeda's and it also misses out the hollow in the middle of the blade compared to the AS versions.

Based on my limited handling of blades, unmodified I'd still take the Takeda over the Yusuke as a lefty. I suspect that he shorter bevels of the Takeda would have less effect.

But that being said, I've got a Ashi Homono Ginga 240 on loan from a co-worker. The knife works pretty fine for something with a rightly bias. Rotating the knife in my hand, so the flat matches a lefty grind, it does seem to cut that little bit better. One of those things that I wouldn't stress over on a $100 knife, but if I were looking at $200+, it would definitely start to affect my decision.


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

What brands of Japanese knives should I be looking at that are made from a good steel, fit within my budget, offer western style knives, and preferably something that doesn't require me to get a left-handed version?


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

I think the Misono dragon virgin carbon (left handed version from jck) is a very good fit.

Maybe shoot Tanner (aboynamedsuita) a pm and get his thoughts...he has quite a collection of lefty Misonos.


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## rjcedeno (Jan 22, 2018)

No love for the Kramer Carbon?


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## HRC_64 (Jan 22, 2018)

They seem to be an acquired taste, mostly the handle and the balance.


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

rjcedeno said:


> No love for the Kramer Carbon?



I personally like the looks of the Kramer Carbon a lot, especially the blade profile. The longer I wait to make this purchase (meaning the more I keep re-looking at every other knife imaginable) the more I'm trying to justify the money for it. The handle looks really fat though I'm not sure how it would feel. I wish there was a Sur La Table closer than 75 miles away so I could go check one out in person.


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

chinacats said:


> I think the Misono dragon virgin carbon (left handed version from jck) is a very good fit.
> 
> Maybe shoot Tanner (aboynamedsuita) a pm and get his thoughts...he has quite a collection of lefty Misonos.



Thanks, I'll check those out and shoot him a message.


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## esoo (Jan 22, 2018)

SlickWillyTFCF said:


> I personally like the looks of the Kramer Carbon a lot, especially the blade profile. The longer I wait to make this purchase (meaning the more I keep re-looking at every other knife imaginable) the more I'm trying to justify the money for it. The handle looks really fat though I'm not sure how it would feel. I wish there was a Sur La Table closer than 75 miles away so I could go check one out in person.



The Zwilling Kramer 52100 is a nice knife. I've had the 8" and currently have the 10". Fit on the rivets on the handle is a little suspect (the rivets are raised), but the steel and profile is spot on. I sold the 8" as it felt too heavy for the length for me.


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## SlickWillyTFCF (Jan 22, 2018)

chinacats said:


> I think the Misono dragon virgin carbon (left handed version from jck) is a very good fit.
> 
> Maybe shoot Tanner (aboynamedsuita) a pm and get his thoughts...he has quite a collection of lefty Misonos.



Also, I guess that leads me to the question of size since there are more options with Japanese knives. I'm not going to be doing restaurant volume so I can't imagine I'll need anything 10" or larger if I'm looking at it in terms of productivity, but I've noticed a lot of posts about people gradually working their way up in size and really enjoying 270 and 300mm lengths after they get used to them. Are there benefits to the longer models that I'm not thinking of or should I plan on sticking to something around 8"?


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

I'd suggest 210-240...if you think they feel to large or small they are the easiest sizes to resell. These tend to be somewhat middle ground in terms of size.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jan 22, 2018)

SlickWillyTFCF said:


> ... Are there benefits to the longer models that I'm not thinking of or should I plan on sticking to something around 8"?



I'm exploring basically this question myself and I don't think anyone can answer it for you. The answer seems to depend on many things and most of them are unique to your skill, style, and working space.

E.g. what is your cutting style? I naturally push-cut and prefer a flatter edge. I found my first gyuto at 210mm is as effectively as long when cutting as a 10" Chef's knife (where I don't use the tip as I don't rock that far.) The huge difference is the amount of extra space behind the cutting board I need to use the 10". Another example of how individual circumstances matter is the volume you're prepping. I love the 210mm for big meals, and even wish for a little more, but usually we're only cooking for two and I'm reading reviews and thinking about maybe 180mm as a next knife, instead of the 240mm I expected to want (based on other's needs & recommendations here.) Just some thoughts to consider.


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## HRC_64 (Jan 22, 2018)

Big fan of 180mm on A4 sized cutting boards.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jan 22, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> Big fan of 180mm on A4 sized cutting boards.



(For anyone else in a backward non-metric country A4 size is roughly "letter size".)

Carry on.


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

Yet-Another-Dave said:


> (For anyone else in a backward non-metric country A4 size is roughly "letter size".)
> 
> Carry on.



LOL, I had no clue but had dismissed it just like a 180 gyuto--which btw, I have a hard time even thinking of a 180 as a gyuto...more like a pointy santoku or a high heeled petty


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## daveb (Jan 22, 2018)

chinacats said:


> LOL, I had no clue but had dismissed it just like a 180 gyuto--which btw, I have a hard time even thinking of a 180 as a gyuto...more like a pointy santoku or a high heeled petty



Say what? My GG 180 GYUTO suits me just fine when rubbing shoulders at a catering event. Especially like it cause it's STAINLESS like all good knives should be.....


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## labor of love (Jan 22, 2018)

daveb said:


> Say what? My GG 180 GYUTO suits me just fine when rubbing shoulders at a catering event. Especially like it cause it's STAINLESS like all good knives should be.....



Eh. I prefer STAINMORE but not STAINTOOMUCH.


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2018)

Out of all the knives I've owned the only one that stained too much was my first Tanaka blue2...unfortunately I couldn't tame it so I sold it...haven't had one yet that cut as well...newer ones don't stain so much but don't quite equal the performance...starting to think there may be a correlation:scratchhead:


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## panda (Jan 23, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Eh. I prefer STAINMORE but not STAINTOOMUCH.



haha , a knock on shigs!!


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## Benuser (Jan 23, 2018)

SlickWillyTFCF said:


> Also, I guess that leads me to the question of size since there are more options with Japanese knives. I'm not going to be doing restaurant volume so I can't imagine I'll need anything 10" or larger if I'm looking at it in terms of productivity, but I've noticed a lot of posts about people gradually working their way up in size and really enjoying 270 and 300mm lengths after they get used to them. Are there benefits to the longer models that I'm not thinking of or should I plan on sticking to something around 8"?



Longer blades have a better edge retention. Larger contact area with the board.


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