# What grit do you finish your knives on?



## madelinez

What grit do you take your knives to? For me I've realised my gyutos are fine at 1k, I still take them up to a 3k jnat but the performance benefit seems minor and it's mainly an aesthetic choice. I think a big part of it involves how you cut, with my gyutos I use more horizontal motion so the toothier edge might help there. On my nakiri I take it to 8k and I see the benefit because I only use it for chopping.

What works best for everyone else?


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## Michi

1k for my Wüsthofs. If I have the stones out anyway and I'm also sharpening some of my Japanese knives, I might give them a few swipes on a 3k. Mainly to make myself feel better, rather than to get the knives sharper… 

For my Japanese ones, I finish at 5k. There is a risk though that they'll be worse for tomatoes and peppers (capsicum); the 3k edge seems to work better for those.

For my yanagiba, I go all the way up to 10k.


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## Garner Harrison

I like to finish at 3k myself since I like the feedback more then my 1k stone edge. I can still cut through tomatoes with ease and love slicing through meats with it. If I could get a toothier edge with the grit around 2-4k Id probably do that  

I only use a Gyuto at the moment and a Utility-petty.


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## Carl Kotte

Recently, I end everything at 1k and I’m happy with the results.


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## labor of love

I can’t decide. Anywhere between 3k and 6k depending on my mood.


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## M1k3

For my multipurpose during shift 210mm Gyuto, I like 1-2k edge, can't decide . The 240mm prep Gyuto gets 4k edge. Paring 6k and strop. Wusthof butchers gets 500.


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## Garner Harrison

I have heard mid-range (1000-4000) naturals or synthetic Aoto's with their mix of different grits make for really nice edges since its slices really well but also has bite.


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## Lars

I like to finish on my JNS Aoto Matukusuyama. It is a mixed grit stone and I really like the results.


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## leminh247

I'm the gyuto guy. I stop at 1k then strop on stone and leather. I take my slicers up to 3k range on my aizu.


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## Matus

Most of the time it is the Gesshin Synthetic Natural. I just love the stone. But I want to play more with finishing on Aizu, Natsuya, Ohira Suita and Ohira Asagi - and combining them with different naguras. Friend of mine swears by a combination of Ohira suita and Aizu nagura for an extra bity and lasting edge.


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## Carl Kotte

Oh, I do like my suehiro rika 5k. It’s been a few months since I last used it. But I enjoy the edge it gives to my carbons.


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## Carl Kotte

labor of love said:


> I can’t decide. Anywhere between 3k and 6k depending on my mood.



I can really relate to this [emoji16]


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## lemeneid

Narutaki awasedo for my TFs which goes up to 20k finish. Aoto for everything else except my Ginga suji which finishes on a 6k Arashiyama synth and leather strops.


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## Benuser

Often I go quite fine for deburring. Polishing depends on the use and the mood. For maintenance the finest that works. If the 8k doesn't give a smooth edge within a few strokes, I go lower. Once the 2k isn't enough it's time for a full sharpening, starting at 320, 400 or 500.


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## childermass

Depending on my mood and motivation I finish on any medium grit jnat I have at hand (somewhere in 2-3k territory) or take it a step up on one of my Suita just to tame the edge a little.


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## stringer

Most of the time, my trusty Naniwa Super Stone 2k


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## Kitchen-Samurai

That‘s an interesting thread!
I usually stop at 2k for most regular stainless steel knives. For high-quality stainless steels, I finish at around 4k. For carbon, I might take it up to 6k, though I am not really sure whether this is due to performance or aesthetics...
Currently, I am experimenting with different deburring methods and the big question: which of my kitchen knives actually do benefit from stropping on compound-loaded leather...


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## Robert Lavacca

Depending on the knife I’m sharpening. Usually 2k - 4k. Lately i’ve been using a very trusty system of sharpening on a XL gesshin 1k and finishing lightly on a gesshin 4k. If I feel like it, sometimes I stop at 2k. Really want to pick up that gesshin 2k eventually.


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## Garner Harrison

@Robert Lavacca Hey! Just want to know your thoughts on those Gesshin stones real quick since I've heard they are nice.


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## Benuser

Kitchen-Samurai said:


> That‘s an interesting thread!
> I usually stop at 2k for most regular stainless steel knives. For high-quality stainless steels, I finish at around 4k. For carbon, I might take it up to 6k, though I am not really sure whether this is due to performance or aesthetics...
> Currently, I am experimenting with different debuting methods and the big question: which of my kitchen knives actually do benefit from stropping on compound-loaded leather...


I use rough split leather when deburring between stones. Pushing the debris on one side and abrade it. Haven't yet seen a lasting benefit of leather stropping, except for fun. Make sure you don't round the edge.


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## Cloudsmoker

Newbie here, looking for teaching. What's the downside going up to a finer grit, say 10,000?


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## labor of love

Cloudsmoker said:


> Newbie here, looking for teaching. What's the downside going up to a finer grit, say 10,000?


Edge will fail really quick for a gyuto that’s used for repeating motions against a cutting board. Such an edge is more common for slicing motions w Yanagiba as the edge doesn’t feel the same level of impact against the board thus not dulling it as quickly.


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## Nikabrik

leminh247 said:


> I'm the gyuto guy. I stop at 1k then strop on stone and leather. I take my slicers up to 3k range on my aizu.


Similarly, I stone to 1k, then strop with 3μ diamond on MDF (not that MDF is superior, just cheap).
The strop is my maintenance method, too.


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## Benuser

In addition to @Cloudsmoker : with steel types containing large carbides a high polish will weaken the surrounding matrix of those carbides, who remain themselves intact. Expect edge instability. 
With very basic carbon steel you may go as far as you like. I maintain carbon Sabs with a few strokes on a 8k.


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## Chuckles

Gesshin 1k diamond finished with stropping on the 6k for powdered stainless.

Gesshin 2k for stainless and everything if I am in a hurry. 

Aizu or Natural Red Aoto for carbon.


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## mack

I finish most knives with my Naniwa Professional 5K, if it is worth I go up to a Naniwa Superstone 12K and a fine JNAT afterwards (but the 12K and Jnat are only usefull in combination with a sharpening system - imho). I keep the knives sharp with a Dick Micro. 

Mack.


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## Cloudsmoker

labor of love said:


> Edge will fail really quick for a gyuto that’s used for repeating motions against a cutting board. Such an edge is more common for slicing motions w Yanagiba as the edge doesn’t feel the same level of impact against the board thus not dulling it as quickly.


Thank you, Labor.


mack said:


> I finish most knives with my Naniwa Professional 5K, if it is worth I go up to a Naniwa Superstone 12K and a fine JNAT afterwards (but the 12K and Jnat are only usefull in combination with a sharpening system - imho). I keep the knives sharp with a Dick Micro.
> 
> Mack.


Please allow me ... you guys are all very gracious. I come most recently from the internet gunsmithing world, where it seems to be cool to put everybody down. What a blessing to be here. Thank you!


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## labor of love

Cloudsmoker said:


> Thank you, Labor.
> 
> Please allow me ... you guys are all very gracious. I come most recently from the internet gunsmithing world, where it seems to be cool to put everybody down. What a blessing to be here. Thank you!


Not so fast, we can be a bucket of Aholes too. Haha


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## SilverSwarfer

For Gyuto and Sujihiki for my purposes (pro environment, J-Carbon)-

I don’t think I’ve done the exact same finishing process -since sometime last year. With all this experimentation I find that pretty much everything works nicely as long as you’re building on strong fundamentals, and have some parameters or a specific goal set.

If I’m in a hurry, and depending on the knife- I’ve had great results with properly deburred 400 and 500 grit finishes. But that’s not very fun so most of the time I’ll:

Start at 4-500 -or- 1-2k. 

Pause to deburr with light strokes on the stone
Continue to deburr on canvas
Preferably move to whatever JNAT finisher is at hand.
If no JNAT, then 3-4k synth depending on whether I started at 4-500 or 1-2k
Depending on the speed of the stone, I do some light polishing. Usually very light so to refine/rebuild the apex and not to polish out too much “bite.” 
Another quick strop session if applicable- this time instead of canvas I use leather.


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## Colonel Mustard

So far, I finish my Henckels on 1k and my J-knives (Wh1 and R2) on 6K. I haven't had any proplems with tomato or pepper skins so far.


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## bahamaroot

Nothing really needs more than a 3k but I'll go up to 8k sometimes just because I can....


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## panda

im lazy when it comes to sharpening, most of the time i dont even finish, just put new edge with chosera 400 and then strop on cardboard.


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## gman

i go way higher than is fashionable


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## Robert Lavacca

Garner Harrison said:


> @Robert Lavacca Hey! Just want to know your thoughts on those Gesshin stones real quick since I've heard they are nice.


I’ve tried quite a few different stones. My personal preference is gesshin. I plan to buy more of them in the future. I love the feel of working on them and the results I get. Jon is amazing to deal with as well. I think my next snag will be the splash n go no soak 600. The 4k leaves me with a nice edge with some bite to it which serves me well at work.


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## RDalman

Shapton pro 1k - > okudo suita here usually. Touchup typically on only the suita.


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## Garner Harrison

Robert Lavacca said:


> My personal preference is gesshin



Sounds like Ill have to get some one day!


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## Kippington

panda said:


> im lazy when it comes to sharpening, most of the time i dont even finish, just put new edge with chosera 400 and then strop on cardboard.


I often do the same. Some cardboard tubes make amazing strops.
Sometimes I'll throw a 4k Shapton Glass in the mix.


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## KingShapton

Depending on my mood and the purpose of the knife, I finish at 2000-6000 grit, most of the time Shapton Pro and Glass, sometimes Aizu, Balkan Grey,Green Brick or Hayabusa.

Up until a few years ago I finished differently, I was in the very high grit range and with very fine natural stones. Back then I let so-called "experts" guide me in the wrong direction, at some point I realized that it was complete nonsense.

Today I still do it with a knife or two, just for fun, even if it doesn't make sense.


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## Benuser

panda said:


> im lazy when it comes to sharpening, most of the time i dont even finish, just put new edge with chosera 400 and then strop on cardboard.


Can you get rid of the 400-burr only by stropping on cardboard?


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## panda

Benuser said:


> Can you get rid of the 400-burr only by stropping on cardboard?


if you do enough deburring strokes on the stone first yeah


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## kayman67

Maybe sometimes finishing on some high grit is different from making the edge true to it. In Japan I've seen this high pass finishing on a very high grit, but far from how most people go at it for "hours".


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## kayman67

Benuser said:


> Can you get rid of the 400-burr only by stropping on cardboard?



You can make it shave hair after 400 alone.


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## LostHighway

Not my practice (I'm a rank beginner) but I've heard of people going up to something like a 6k or even 10k level and then going back down to a, at least nominally, slightly coarser JNAT. Presumably the theory is that the particle size distribution of the right JNAT restores just enough tooth without overly compromising the otherwise razor edge? It is also entirely possible that I've completely misunderstood what they are doing.


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## Kristoffer

Is anyone using a Suehiro Rika 5k for Japanese carbon? Or perhaps a Kitayama 4K?

Looking for reasons to buy a new stone... I’m hoping to find something slightly finer than the Shapton 2k (which is great to finish stainless on btw), that still has that nice bite that makes tomato skin “disappear”.


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## Benuser

I use the Naniwa Pro 3k (+/-JIS4k) after the Shapton 2k with excellent results.


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## labor of love

Kristoffer said:


> Is anyone using a Suehiro Rika 5k for Japanese carbon? Or perhaps a Kitayama 4K?
> 
> Looking for reasons to buy a new stone... I’m hoping to find something slightly finer than the Shapton 2k (which is great to finish stainless on btw), that still has that nice bite that makes tomato skin “disappear”.


I have 5 different finishing stones at the moment. I use the rika 5k the most out of all of them (that’s including a takashima) the classics are classic for a reason. Great stone that’s easy to use and inexpensive.


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## Kristoffer

Thanks! That was just the kind of enabling I was looking for


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## labor of love

No problem! It’s not the synth best finisher ever by any means (gesh 4K and 6k are still likely my faves), but it’s still quite good.


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## mack

LostHighway said:


> Not my practice (I'm a rank beginner) but I've heard of people going up to something like a 6k or even 10k level and then going back down to a, at least nominally, slightly coarser JNAT. Presumably the theory is that the particle size distribution of the right JNAT restores just enough tooth without overly compromising the otherwise razor edge? It is also entirely possible that I've completely misunderstood what they are doing.



Yeah, that works, I do it sometimes (and that was exactely what I wanted to point at with my older post in this thread). To me it only makes sense with a jig.

Mack.


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## ma_sha1

King 4K here


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## Michi

LostHighway said:


> Presumably the theory is that the particle size distribution of the right JNAT restores just enough tooth without overly compromising the otherwise razor edge?


Yes, but only after burying the blade under a crossroads at midnight and leaving it there for a week first…

Sorry, but I don’t buy it


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## mack

Michi said:


> Yes, but only after burying the blade under a crossroads at midnight and leaving it there for a week first…
> 
> Sorry, but I don’t buy it



You should just give it a try and form your opinion afterwards.

But if you are happy with your results as they are, there is no need for trying out something new. 

To me, the better is the enemy of the good. That's why I'm always trying out something new, although some things don't make sense at the first look. Some of those things work, some don't. I just want to find it out on my own.

Mack.


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## kayman67

LostHighway said:


> Not my practice (I'm a rank beginner) but I've heard of people going up to something like a 6k or even 10k level and then going back down to a, at least nominally, slightly coarser JNAT. Presumably the theory is that the particle size distribution of the right JNAT restores just enough tooth without overly compromising the otherwise razor edge? It is also entirely possible that I've completely misunderstood what they are doing.



Or you can do a few light passes on a good diamond strop with the desired grit or even the same grit as the stone. Works just as well if used right.


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## labor of love

mack said:


> You should just give it a try and form your opinion afterwards.
> 
> But if you are happy with your results as they are, there is no need for trying out something new.
> 
> To me, the better is the enemy of the good. That's why I'm always trying out something new, although some things don't make sense at the first look. Some of those things work, some don't. I just want to find it out on my own.
> 
> Mack.


@mack ill try it. Tell me a little bit more about exactly what you do?


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## mack

Hi, @labor of love 

I sharpen a gyuto made of 1.2562 up to 12K (Naniwa Superstone) which is polishing the edge. Unfortunately I don't have a stone with higher grit (Shapton 30K would be great). I do this with system (Bogdan). After that I do a few strokes on my Suita with nearly no pressure (again, imho only doable with system). The edge combines the best of both worlds, it lasts very long, is very sharp and also toothy. 
I don't like the sharpness of my knives sharpened with NSS12K only, it's too "clean". Using the Suita afterwards gives me the sharpness and toothiness I like most in kitchen.

Hopefully I was able to explain it understandable. And please let me know about your experiences.

Mack.


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## Newbflat

Soft euro stainless is finished on a Bester 1200, Japanese knives on a Rika 5000 (love that stone). If I need to shave some chives or whatever, sometimes I finish on a medium hard generic Honyama or more likely a wood strop loaded with CrOx.. it doesn’t last that long though and a tomato will put up a fight in not to long. I do finish my Ittosai honyaki on the honyama and it takes an amazing aggressive edge and holds it. Basicly Rika 5000 gets a lot of use.


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## labor of love

Sure thing. I don’t have any stones that high grit. But I will try something like arashiyama(6k) then chosera 3k or jnat.


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## Xenif

Kristoffer said:


> Is anyone using a Suehiro Rika 5k for Japanese carbon? Or perhaps a Kitayama 4K?
> 
> Looking for reasons to buy a new stone... I’m hoping to find something slightly finer than the Shapton 2k (which is great to finish stainless on btw), that still has that nice bite that makes tomato skin “disappear”.


I use a Rika after the SP2K with pretty good results. Thats my preferred synth progression, especially for AS I like it better than jnats.

For stainless I finish on SP2k. Blues/White/similar, I perfer jnats. I like Aotos for a mid grit finish and suita for finer finish


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## M1k3

My favorite tomato skin grit, is an old, loaded, rounded off abrasive, in need of refreshing to act like the stone it actually is, Fine India stone. 

It's so hard it basically burnishes and realigns the edge, yet coarse enough to give some bite... If that makes any sense.


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## rob

Kippington said:


> I often do the same. Some cardboard tubes make amazing strops.
> Sometimes I'll throw a 4k Shapton Glass in the mix.


Hi Kipp, what are the cardboard tubes you use.

Like the roll from glad wrap?

Thanks Rob.


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## Garm

kayman67 said:


> Maybe sometimes finishing on some high grit is different from making the edge true to it. In Japan I've seen this high pass finishing on a very high grit, but far from how most people go at it for "hours".


I'm not sure I understood what you were saying here.
Did you mean using a high grit stone, like a 6k for instance, but not long enough to fully convert/replace the scratch pattern from a coarser stone?


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## kayman67

More like 8-10k. Yes, very few ligh high passes.


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## kayman67

M1k3 said:


> My favorite tomato skin grit, is an old, loaded, rounded off abrasive, in need of refreshing to act like the stone it actually is, Fine India stone.
> 
> It's so hard it basically burnishes and realigns the edge, yet coarse enough to give some bite... If that makes any sense.



It does. Also has the ability to shave off the very weak edge steel.


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## Kippington

rob said:


> Hi Kipp, what are the cardboard tubes you use.
> 
> Like the roll from glad wrap?
> 
> Thanks Rob.


Yeah something like that which won't flex or bend.


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## GoodMagic

Mostly an Aizu after 1k.


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## Ivang

Shapton pro 2k 95% of the time. 

Nothing else i have gets as sharp as my denka BTW.

TFTFTFTF!!!


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## Kristoffer

Thanks for the feedback! A Rika 5k it is then (at least until room opens up in the budget for a decent Aizu).


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## Michi

mack said:


> I don't like the sharpness of my knives sharpened with NSS12K only, it's too "clean". Using the Suita afterwards gives me the sharpness and toothiness I like most in kitchen.


It's not entirely clear to me how much that differs from just finishing on the coarser stone and being done with it.

Each grit produces a particular scratch pattern, with scratches of a certain width and depth. If I finish on a coarse stone, I end up with a coarse scratch pattern. With the fine stone, I end up with a fine scratch pattern. If I now go back to a coarse stone, I just end up putting the same coarse scratches back that were there after I used the coarse stone the first time.

I can sort of see the idea of "roughening up" the edge just a little. I'm not sure though that this would be noticeably better than finishing on the coarser stone. I suspect that, if I were to try this, it would be near impossible to objectively make out any real difference.


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## labor of love

I think there is more involved than finishing stone scratch pattern. I can certainly discern a difference in edge between 400 grit>5k, 1k>5k and 2k>5k progressions.


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## ian

Michi said:


> It's not entirely clear to me how much that differs from just finishing on the coarser stone and being done with it.
> 
> Each grit produces a particular scratch pattern, with scratches of a certain width and depth. If I finish on a coarse stone, I end up with a coarse scratch pattern. With the fine stone, I end up with a fine scratch pattern. If I now go back to a coarse stone, I just end up putting the same coarse scratches back that were there after I used the coarse stone the first time.
> 
> I can sort of see the idea of "roughening up" the edge just a little. I'm not sure though that this would be noticeably better than finishing on the coarser stone. I suspect that, if I were to try this, it would be near impossible to objectively make out any real difference.



I can see polishing the primary bevel (even a small one) on a high grit stone, and then raising the angle slightly to give a microbevel in one or two strokes on a coarser stone. I don’t do this, but it’s qualitatively different than finishing coarse, and theoretically would be better since the edge would have teeth while the bevel would be smooth and frictionless. I bet I couldn’t tell the difference, though.


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## ian

labor of love said:


> I think there is more involved than finishing stone scratch pattern. I can certainly discern a difference in edge between 400 grit>5k, 1k>5k and 2k>5k progressions.



I suspect this is because none of us spend long enough on the finishing stone to actually remove the previous scratches. I suppose it’s true that in the situation Michi’s talking about, if you polish the primary bevel with 5k for a long time, then go down to 1k for a minute still on the whole primary bevel (not like in my post above), then you’ll get a more polished surface with a bunch of deep scratches. However, as Michi indicates I’m not sure I could tell the difference between that and a surface with just a bunch of deep scratches.


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## labor of love

I’m thinking in terms of micro serrations that are created by the initial stone in a sharpening progression creating a new fresh edge. 
initial micro serrations created from using a 400 grit, 1k and 2k will look quite different.
The second stone used in a progression to polish and refine those micro serrations should produce varying edges due to the different sizes of micro serrations that were originally created.
I mean sure, if you spend and infinite amount of time on your finisher you can wipe away much the blend of low grit serrations+polishing refinement to the point where there is just finished stone serrations only. 
The same way I understand a single Jnat as offering a blend of multiple grit sizes is also how I understand a sharpening progression but to a lesser degree.


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## Benuser

panda said:


> if you do enough deburring strokes on the stone first yeah


On a 400 I keep having a burr that won't get any smaller and only flips.


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## Dendrobatez

Primary bevel I'll take to .3 micron if I have an hour or two to spend on it. The edge I'll do to 5k - quick strop to 12k - then use a loaded peice of leather and finish on felt.

@Benuser for knives that I finish @ a 500grit stone I find it best to de-burr by stripping on a piece of wood (an old bookers bourbon box), that's just me though - I know a lot of people do it pretty well on a stone.


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## M1k3

Benuser said:


> On a 400 I keep having a burr that won't get any smaller and only flips.



Finish edge leading.


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## Benuser

M1k3 said:


> Finish edge leading.


Thanks!


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI

I often use a Washita with light pressure it seems to finish higher than 1k. With pressure it is much lower. Kind of a one stop shop.


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## stringer

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> I often use a Washita with light pressure it seems to finish higher than 1k. With pressure it is much lower. Kind of a one stop shop.



Do you use your washita with oil or water? I have a light colored washita that I just cleaned up. I haven't tried it on knives yet, but it has done a respectable job on some straight razors. For that application I definitely prefer oil so far. How do you use it?


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI

I use it with water and propylene glycol. I spray some water on it and add a few drops of the PG. That's what I use on all of my oil stones. Easy and clean.


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## stringer

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> I use it with water and propylene glycol. I spray some water on it and add a few drops of the PG. That's what I use on all of my oil stones. Easy and clean.



Thanks. I'll have to try that.


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## MrHiggins

Michi said:


> It's not entirely clear to me how much that differs from just finishing on the coarser stone and being done with it.
> 
> Each grit produces a particular scratch pattern, with scratches of a certain width and depth. If I finish on a coarse stone, I end up with a coarse scratch pattern. With the fine stone, I end up with a fine scratch pattern. If I now go back to a coarse stone, I just end up putting the same coarse scratches back that were there after I used the coarse stone the first time.
> 
> I can sort of see the idea of "roughening up" the edge just a little. I'm not sure though that this would be noticeably better than finishing on the coarser stone. I suspect that, if I were to try this, it would be near impossible to objectively make out any real difference.


I often go to a high grit (Gesshin 6k or Kitayama 8k), then do a few finishing/no-pressure passes on a 3 or 4k stone (Nubetama 3k, Gesshin 4k). I feel like I can form a great apex on the edge with the high grit stones, then make it toothier with the 3k. Give it a try some time.

I'm always doing something different, though, depending on how I'm feeling at the moment. My most common finisher is either the Gesshin 6k S&G or the Nubetama 3k, depending on the knife.


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## Doug8066

*Very interesting thread.
My usual process is 2k Shapton, 5k Shapton then 8k or 12k Shapton, or Naniwa SStone 10,000. Then I strop on diamond paste. 0.25u or 0.5u,loaded onto MDF or (best of all) loaded onto a board of soft pine, which has been sanded very smooth with 1200 paper. The pine appears to act a little like balsa. Killer sharp edges on all my knives.*


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## stringer

Doug8066 said:


> *Very interesting thread.
> My usual process is 2k Shapton, 5k Shapton then 8k or 12k Shapton, or Naniwa SStone 10,000. Then I strop on diamond paste. 0.25u or 0.5u,loaded onto MDF or (best of all) loaded onto a board of soft pine, which has been sanded very smooth with 1200 paper. The pine appears to act a little like balsa. Killer sharp edges on all my knives.*



That sounds like a really nice razor progression. Swap out the diamond paste for CBN and the pine for basswood and you got my razor progression. Probably overkill for kitchen work. I'm curious about why you go so high and what you're using those edges for? And are you doing freehand or jig? I need more information. Inquiring minds want to know.


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## Steampunk

I experiment a lot, but it really depends on the steel and function of the knife...

On beater Victorinox, etc, I've been sharpening and finishing on a JNS 800 after setting the bevel on a coarse diamond plate, and stropping on bare leather. Surprisingly, the JNS 800 munches through cheap SS, and leaves a decent working edge that can start to shave whilst maintaining an aggressive tooth. Nice feel, too, on steels that typically feel awful to sharpen.

On my Aogami knives, I'm typically finishing on my Belgian Blue, or a Shapton or Gesshin synth in the 3-6K range. Edge leading, then stropped on bare leather. I just always love sharpening this stuff. It wants to get sharp and toothy.

On Shirogami, I typically finish on my Aiiwatani from Maksim, and then strop on bare leather... Getting that 'sharp / toothy' balance, that lasts, is harder on Shirogami than Aogami. So far I find it works best if you use J-Nats, take it a little higher in the grit range than you would Aogami, and strop it routinely between low-volume meal prep. With synths, 3-4K seems to be a sweet spot, but J-Nat is better for sharpness/retention. In this circumstance, it holds its edge quite well, and is easy to sharpen.

For vintage French carbons, I love the finish I get off of my Translucent Arkansas, but it takes some time... I have a La Dressante Coticule that is faster and toothier feeling, but doesn't last quite as long on the edge. Routine bare leather stropping... These knives really make me feel I should get a steel.

Decent culinary stainless is a bit pickier than carbon... I have favorite stones for different knives.

I like my Gesshin 1K/6K Combo or a full J-Nat progression on Hiromoto's Ginsan, Gesshin 2-4K on Suisin AUS-8, La Dressante Coticule or synth from 6-12K + Diamond Strop up to 0.25 micron on SRS-15, JNS Blue Speckled Aoto for SLD, etc.

Folders I tend to take pretty high... BBW, 6-12K Synth, Pasted Strops, etc.

Butchery knives I leave as low as they can go and still deburr and shave... Typically Shapton 500 GS or Naniwa 600 Pro.

- Steampunk


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## Benuser

No steeling with French carbons, if you have the choice. Try the Belgian Blue instead to revive the edge. Old school trick: no water but saliva.


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## DisconnectedAG

For anything carbon or R2 kitchen, 4k or Hakka jnat. For VG10, Naniwa Professional 2k. For Western stainless Naniwa Traditional 1500.


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## Kristoffer

I finally got time to try my new Suehiro Rika 5000 on Mazakis Shirogami today. As advertised it left some really nice bit. It was quite the difference to the Ohishi 6000 I used as a finisher previously, which could make any steel glide across tomato skin like Elsa in Disney on ice. 

...truth be told, it could just as well have been that my technique now sucks slightly less and that i didn’t roll the edge on the finer stone. I’d much rather think it was thanks to the addiction-feed by certain helpful KKF members though.


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## DisconnectedAG

Benuser said:


> No steeling with French carbons, if you have the choice. Try the Belgian Blue instead to revive the edge. Old school trick: no water but saliva.


This is the second time in a short period I see people mention belgian blue. I have one I bought off knives and tools without any expectations, but how the heck do you use it? It does absolutely nothing for me. I've tried it with heaps of water (it's very thirsty) I've tried it with minimal water. I've tried it for edge finishing (it does **** all for me) and for polishing (waste of time). 

Any advice appreciated. I'm not that bothered, as it was just a bit of a laugh when I bought it, but it would be interesting to understand how people actually use these.


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## childermass

DisconnectedAG said:


> This is the second time in a short period I see people mention belgian blue. I have one I bought off knives and tools without any expectations, but how the heck do you use it? It does absolutely nothing for me. I've tried it with heaps of water (it's very thirsty) I've tried it with minimal water. I've tried it for edge finishing (it does **** all for me) and for polishing (waste of time).
> 
> Any advice appreciated. I'm not that bothered, as it was just a bit of a laugh when I bought it, but it would be interesting to understand how people actually use these.



I have had one for some time and found it only useable with slurry. Even then it’s so awfully slow that I decided to get rid of it.

The problem with belgian stones is that they don’t really release their abrasive on their own. The garnets just sit there only showing the very peak. As they are rather round due to the crystal configuration makes the stone almost useless without slurry.


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## TRPV4

Kristoffer said:


> I finally got time to try my new Suehiro Rika 5000 on Mazakis Shirogami today. As advertised it left some really nice bit. It was quite the difference to the Ohishi 6000 I used as a finisher previously, which could make any steel glide across tomato skin like Elsa in Disney on ice.
> 
> ...truth be told, it could just as well have been that my technique now sucks slightly less and that i didn’t roll the edge on the finer stone. I’d much rather think it was thanks to the addiction-feed by certain helpful KKF members though.


Beginning to realise my technique is ****.. having problems getting a clean apex on lower grits. could you explain what you mean by rolling the edge on the finer stone?


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## DisconnectedAG

childermass said:


> I have had one for some time and found it only useable with slurry. Even then it’s so awfully slow that I decided to get rid of it.
> 
> The problem with belgian stones is that they don’t really release their abrasive on their own. The garnets just sit there only showing the very peak. As they are rather round due to the crystal configuration makes the stone almost useless without slurry.


Thanks! Makes sense.


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## Kristoffer

TRPV4 said:


> Beginning to realise my technique is ****.. having problems getting a clean apex on lower grits. could you explain what you mean by rolling the edge on the finer stone?



There are probably many others that could explain this far better, but my understanding is that not managing to keep a consistent angle on successively finer stones rounds off whatever apex one might have been able to create at the outset.


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## kayman67

DisconnectedAG said:


> This is the second time in a short period I see people mention belgian blue. I have one I bought off knives and tools without any expectations, but how the heck do you use it? It does absolutely nothing for me. I've tried it with heaps of water (it's very thirsty) I've tried it with minimal water. I've tried it for edge finishing (it does **** all for me) and for polishing (waste of time).
> 
> Any advice appreciated. I'm not that bothered, as it was just a bit of a laugh when I bought it, but it would be interesting to understand how people actually use these.



https://www.amazon.co.uk/Combination-Sharpening-Brocken-Pyrenees-200X60X20/dp/B00RC2DV4G
These are selected to "polish" in a certain way that gives a very clean apex. The BBW is rated around 6k. The negative comment there is related to the fact that the stone is not delivered razor ready. Most people like these for razors as they deliver a very clean edge. 
I just make a bit of slurry and finish with water for anything I use it. 

Give a Dalmore Blue a try or even a Tam O'Shanter that makes this razor sharp micro serrated edge.


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## musicman980

DisconnectedAG said:


> This is the second time in a short period I see people mention belgian blue. I have one I bought off knives and tools without any expectations, but how the heck do you use it? It does absolutely nothing for me. I've tried it with heaps of water (it's very thirsty) I've tried it with minimal water. I've tried it for edge finishing (it does **** all for me) and for polishing (waste of time).
> 
> Any advice appreciated. I'm not that bothered, as it was just a bit of a laugh when I bought it, but it would be interesting to understand how people actually use these.



I use Belgian coticules and blues all the time. I always though these Belgians don’t absorb any water at all, it just sits on top, at least mine and every other example I’ve seen do that. Maybe yours has a crack in it that is taking in water? 

The blues are different in that the vast majority of blue stone coming from the Ardennes mine is unusable, as in they don’t have many abrasive garnets in them. I could be wrong, but only BBW near the yellow coticule veins have enough garnets to efficiently cut, which they hand pick for sale. My BBW all polish well and cut slow/medium speed, you could have gotten a dud


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## Benuser

I use them for deburring and reviving an edge. For kitchen knives don't have them too smooth. Once in the year they get an Atoma 140 treatment. I use saliva instead of water — a bit old school, but it works.


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## Tanalasta

I usually start at 1k and then perhaps the blue synthetic Aoto from JNS


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## Xenif

Kristoffer said:


> I finally got time to try my new Suehiro Rika 5000 on Mazakis Shirogami today. As advertised it left some really nice bit. It was quite the difference to the Ohishi 6000 I used as a finisher previously, which could make any steel glide across tomato skin like Elsa in Disney on ice.
> 
> ...truth be told, it could just as well have been that my technique now sucks slightly less and that i didn’t roll the edge on the finer stone. I’d much rather think it was thanks to the addiction-feed by certain helpful KKF members though.


So I guess we just coined a new term:


The Elsa Effect: Your edge shows bling bling, but too rounded to carve into tomato/pepper skins


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## ian

Xenif said:


> So I guess we just coined a new term:
> 
> 
> The Elsa Effect: Your edge shows bling bling, but too rounded to carve into tomato/pepper skins



Elsa was definitely a well rounded character. I approve your terminology. #stamp


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## Steampunk

DisconnectedAG said:


> This is the second time in a short period I see people mention belgian blue. I have one I bought off knives and tools without any expectations, but how the heck do you use it? It does absolutely nothing for me. I've tried it with heaps of water (it's very thirsty) I've tried it with minimal water. I've tried it for edge finishing (it does **** all for me) and for polishing (waste of time).
> 
> Any advice appreciated. I'm not that bothered, as it was just a bit of a laugh when I bought it, but it would be interesting to understand how people actually use these.



Based upon your comments, I think you got a really bad example of these stones... Even the most mediocre one I've ever gotten didn't absorb water, and my best actually has a pretty decent cutting speed and rather phenomenal range on slurry. 

Some Belgian Blue's actually do auto-slurry, and these can have quite a high cutting speed (Though not as high as a La Veinette Coticule that auto-slurries... I have one like that. Really neat stone.), though I prefer the ones that don't, as it's easier for me to finish with a crisp edge on the slightly harder examples. Like all natural stones, there's a lot of variance in them, but unlike Coti's or J-Nats there isn't as much labeling of different veins that helps you identify when you've got a great one (Which also helps keep the price down.). The blue-purple ones in my experience aren't anywhere near as nice as the pinkish-purple ones. Based upon the color of the BBW layer on my natural combos, I'd say that the pinkish-purple color is an indication it's closer to the Coti vein. The blue-purple ones, are not crap, but they do seem to perform a little more like a slate stone. 

I personally would never call a BBW 'useless without slurry'... They just act like any other fine stone which doesn't auto-slurry. I.E. they act as fine as they are. 

A great example of BBW can do the heavy lifting from 800-grit synth on thick slurry, and finish in the 8-ish K range (Though obviously with more tooth than a similar grit synth.) by diluting that slurry. It makes them nice, versatile stones, and they seem to do better against alloyed steels (Aogami, HAP-40, etc.) than most other naturals I've tried. They also can produce a decent contrast on clad knives on slurry. You just have to get used to their technique. It's very different from J-Nats.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## McMan

BBW is an entirely different acronym in the US. Don’t google it.


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## Benuser

Steampunk said:


> The blue-purple ones in my experience aren't anywhere near as nice as the pinkish-purple ones. Based upon the color of the BBW layer on my natural combos, I'd say that the pinkish-purple color is an indication it's closer to the Coti vein. The blue-purple ones, are not crap, but they do seem to perform a little more like a slate stone.


Are you sure about these "natural combos" having a BB side? I thought the Coticule was just fixed on a piece of inert slate.


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## DisconnectedAG

McMan said:


> BBW is an entirely different acronym in the US. Don’t google it.


Same thought. We are both broken my friend.


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## Steampunk

Benuser said:


> Are you sure about these "natural combos" having a BB side? I thought the Coticule was just fixed on a piece of inert slate.



Most Coti's are sold on a slate back which cannot be used for sharpening, and you will find some 'man made' combos where the Coticule layer has been glued to a chunk of Belgian Blue... However, there are some so called 'natural' combos, which are cut from the vein at the intersection of the Coticule and Blue layer. They're the most collectible. I have two smaller ones like this, and they behave interestingly. 

- Steampunk

P.S. Yes... 'BBW' has another meaning in some circles. The joke's been done to death on the straight razor forums.


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## kayman67

BBW has variations as wild as the coticules.


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## musicman980

Here’s one of my natural combos. This BBW is quick to make a burr, and is more purple and blue than pink.


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## stringer

I took my two vintage cotiBBW combos home for Christmas to sharpen my family's knives. It worked great as long as the knives were in pretty good shape. I wouldn't want to use it for thinning but for touching up and maintaining edges they excel.


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## kayman67

There are some old layers of BBW that are very hard and they are very dark red-brown color. Those are very fast. Had one years ago. Unfortunately they are very rare these days. 
There's also a very old and dense layer, that's better than most razor grade coticules. I've read about it and years after I managed to find one. Don't have it anymore.
These 2 might be the rarest BBW and the best I know.

BBW and coticules have been used a lot and they vary beyond any expectations. 

Coticules were sold in a natural bond with BBW and some bonds are a sing for particular layers. It's a shame I couldn't keep them all.

They were also sold as sigle layer. I have two of these, small, great razor hones.

And they were sold glued to different types of slate. Some usable, some too soft and/or lacking any abrasives to be used for sharpening. I have one that's more like this type below, but it's just a guess it might be that. 

https://www.bessermesser.de/Wassersteine-natürlich/BM-Schiefer-6000 
Have you guys used these? I was always curious how would they compare.


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## KingShapton

Steampunk said:


> Based upon your comments, I think you got a really bad example of these stones... Even the most mediocre one I've ever gotten didn't absorb water, and my best actually has a pretty decent cutting speed and rather phenomenal range on slurry.
> 
> Some Belgian Blue's actually do auto-slurry, and these can have quite a high cutting speed (Though not as high as a La Veinette Coticule that auto-slurries... I have one like that. Really neat stone.), though I prefer the ones that don't, as it's easier for me to finish with a crisp edge on the slightly harder examples. Like all natural stones, there's a lot of variance in them, but unlike Coti's or J-Nats there isn't as much labeling of different veins that helps you identify when you've got a great one (Which also helps keep the price down.). The blue-purple ones in my experience aren't anywhere near as nice as the pinkish-purple ones. Based upon the color of the BBW layer on my natural combos, I'd say that the pinkish-purple color is an indication it's closer to the Coti vein. The blue-purple ones, are not crap, but they do seem to perform a little more like a slate stone.
> 
> I personally would never call a BBW 'useless without slurry'... They just act like any other fine stone which doesn't auto-slurry. I.E. they act as fine as they are.
> 
> A great example of BBW can do the heavy lifting from 800-grit synth on thick slurry, and finish in the 8-ish K range (Though obviously with more tooth than a similar grit synth.) by diluting that slurry. It makes them nice, versatile stones, and they seem to do better against alloyed steels (Aogami, HAP-40, etc.) than most other naturals I've tried. They also can produce a decent contrast on clad knives on slurry. You just have to get used to their technique. It's very different from J-Nats.
> 
> Hope this helps...
> 
> - Steampunk



I totally agree.

The first problem with Belgian Blue's is the same as with other natural stones - it is a kind of "game of chance" and you never know what you will get.
A number of copies are completely useless, some average with 5000 - 6000 grit, a few (and they are rare) are harder and finer, about 6000 - 8000 grit. Even the right slurrystone can do a lot.

I already had a few copies, some was scrap, I still have 2 today. One of them makes auto-slurry and is very good, the other one I have is much harder and finer. Both can also be used without slurry, without slurry they are considerably finer.

The second problem with Belgian Blue's is that you can make an edge very sharp, razorsharp, but the edge is not suitable for the kitchen, it has no bite. Razorsharp, but without a bite. There is a reason that the razorguys love these stones.
The harder stone I have makes an edge with bite, but it was a mixture of luck and a long search with a lot of trial and error. 

Today I would not do that again, I would buy a natural combo stone (Belgian Blue and Coticule), after everything I have heard and read, the Belgian Blue's should be significantly better with these stones.


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## kayman67

I agree. These are not as consistent as Dalmore Blue or Tam O'Shanter stones.


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## DisconnectedAG

KingShapton said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> The first problem with Belgian Blue's is the same as with other natural stones - it is a kind of "game of chance" and you never know what you will get.
> A number of copies are completely useless, some average with 5000 - 6000 grit, a few (and they are rare) are harder and finer, about 6000 - 8000 grit. Even the right slurrystone can do a lot.
> 
> I already had a few copies, some was scrap, I still have 2 today. One of them makes auto-slurry and is very good, the other one I have is much harder and finer. Both can also be used without slurry, without slurry they are considerably finer.
> 
> The second problem with Belgian Blue's is that you can make an edge very sharp, razorsharp, but the edge is not suitable for the kitchen, it has no bite. Razorsharp, but without a bite. There is a reason that the razorguys love these stones.
> The harder stone I have makes an edge with bite, but it was a mixture of luck and a long search with a lot of trial and error.
> 
> Today I would not do that again, I would buy a natural combo stone (Belgian Blue and Coticule), after everything I have heard and read, the Belgian Blue's should be significantly better with these stones.


Thanks for the wealth of info. This makes sense. I'm keeping mine for now just for shits and giggles. If I decide to go zero-waste it may well come in handy as a razor polisher or something. But for now it's just a (******) brick that doesn't do much.


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## Garner Harrison

Seems like this thread has been derailed!


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## M1k3

Garner Harrison said:


> Seems like this thread has been derailed!



When does a thread not?


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## labor of love

Watanabe recommends shapton pro 1k> kitayama. Works a lot better than some might think it does.


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## dafox

labor of love said:


> Watanabe recommends shapton pro 1k> kitayama. Works a lot better than some might think it does.


You mean those two stones as a progression? 8k Kitayama?


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## labor of love

Yah. It’s a big jump, the edge is real toothy.


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## dafox

labor of love said:


> Yah. It’s a big jump, the edge is real toothy.


I'll try it!


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## rob

labor of love said:


> Watanabe recommends shapton pro 1k> kitayama. Works a lot better than some might think it does.



Interesting, lately i have been really happy with Chosera1000>Suehiro Rika 5000 or Naniwa Snow White and light strop.


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## ian

I usually do Atoma 140 -> New York Times.

...

Now I’m curious to try 1->8 sometime, though. I often go 800->3k or 2->6, bit that’s about it.


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## M1k3

labor of love said:


> Watanabe recommends shapton pro 1k> kitayama. Works a lot better than some might think it does.



I'm currently debating 1k->6k or stop at 2k...


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## labor of love

rob said:


> Interesting, lately i have been really happy with Chosera1000>Suehiro Rika 5000 or Naniwa Snow White and light strop.


I even go chosera 400> Suehiro rika 5k sometimes.

This sorta stuff is fun to test. The results can be interesting.


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## kayman67

labor of love said:


> Watanabe recommends shapton pro 1k> kitayama. Works a lot better than some might think it does.



I do something similar with some knives.


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## galvaude

After years of using waterstones i needed something else to play with. I now finish almost every general use chef knives on a soft Arkansas (Dan’s 8x3), perfect balance of tooth and refinement also push cut nicely. 

I still use waterstones for thinning, general grinding and bevel setting.

the soft Arkansas is the easiest and fastest way to deburr an edge.


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## BDT

Garner Harrison said:


> @Robert Lavacca Hey! Just want to know your thoughts on those Gesshin stones real quick since I've heard they are nice.


I have the Gesshin 2000, and it's a fantastic stone, I'd buy it again in a heartbeat. Good feedback, cuts quickly, and provides a great edge for my AS guyto. Great stone in the lineup, I have a Gesshin 400 which I use for rougher work, mainly for friends that give me their super dull knives to sharpen, and with that and the 2K, it's a great combo.


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## vicv

300? Usually stop my western style knives here. Only problem is the edge is so aggressive it likes to grab at the board when cutting. But wow does it cut!


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## Garner Harrison

vicv said:


> 300? Usually stop my western style knives here



That thing would be like a mini saw blade  

But I bet you never have to worry about tomato skins


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## vicv

Lol. Nope. Cuts through anything very well. You have to remember that for a Japanese stone that's quite coarse. But it's the same as a fine oilstone. Now if it stop on a 100 grit stone that's a mini saw blade!


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## BarryMM

Soft steel Shapton 2k. Nicer steel Naniwa 3k. Even more nicer steel ;-) King 6K. I'm thinking of getting a Naniwa pro 800 then leather strop and call it quits for when in a hurry.


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## Doffen

Victorinox and other soft steel knifes normally Chosera 800, sometimes when I test with naturals, aoto give a nice edge. 
Gyuto and similar Japanese I think I am most satisfied with Chosera 3000, hard aoto and a ohira suita. I don't have Aizu yet, and want to try this when I find a nice one.
For the single bevels I still work on this. Maybe it is a hard and fine Takashiama I am most satisfied with on the yanagiba/takohiki (white II and blue II) at the moment.


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## captaincaed

stringer said:


> Thanks. I'll have to try that.


I've had good luck with windex. Also, a Nagura on a hard Ark ain't bad.


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## captaincaed

Does anyone have a hard time getting a good edge on the gesshin synth nat? It's one I want to love but can't get to work for me. Doesn't seem to leave much bite 

Usually go 1k, 2k, synth nat.


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## Rotem Shoshani

Cloudsmoker said:


> Thank you, Labor.
> 
> Please allow me ... you guys are all very gracious. I come most recently from the internet gunsmithing world, where it seems to be cool to put everybody down. What a blessing to be here. Thank you!



A wise man once said: "Guns for show, knives for a pro"


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