# What are the most sought after gyutos now?



## shinyunggyun (Jan 24, 2022)

Besides the obvious like Kato, konosuke Kaiju, shigefusa, or tsukasa hinoura


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## zizirex (Jan 24, 2022)

Anryu. Because Ryky makes him Uber famous. He’s not bad but Ikeda is doing most of the stuff now.


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## esoo (Jan 24, 2022)

Based on the speed in which they sell
Raquin
Dalman
Kamon
Kono FM
Kippington
Jiro


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## Ikonaka (Jan 24, 2022)

Yanick, probs


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 24, 2022)

I will add Catcheside to the mix. His stuff sells in minutes.


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## pete84 (Jan 24, 2022)

Comet. Tsourkan. Xerxes.


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## M1k3 (Jan 24, 2022)

esoo said:


> Based on the speed in which they sell
> Raquin
> Dalman
> Kamon
> ...


You forgot Isasmedjan and Bjorn!


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## esoo (Jan 24, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> You forgot Isasmedjan and Bjorn!



Haven't tried for a Isasmedjan so not sure how bad it is to try for one of his. I thought of Bjorn, but whenever I check his shop there is always something up in his shop, so not quite the craze for his stuff (i.e three knives are up for sale right now).

I forgot Marko Tsourkan and Devin Thomas.


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## ChrisCrat (Jan 24, 2022)

Are these mostly niche/collector's makers?


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## Knivperson (Jan 24, 2022)

To add to Raquin and Yanick, The 9. Cant tell them apart really, maybe its all just Raquin


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## Knivperson (Jan 24, 2022)

Takada Suiboku damascus


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## Knivperson (Jan 24, 2022)

The lovely HSC/// maybe


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## talcum (Jan 24, 2022)

Kramer, Hattori KD
But I really want a Catcheside and a Shig.


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## tcmx3 (Jan 24, 2022)

ChrisCrat said:


> Are these mostly niche/collector's makers?



that's 99% of the knives we talk about around here.

some of these being harder to acquire than others is just a matter of degree.


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## tgfencer (Jan 24, 2022)

To summarize, essentially anything that is produced in small quantities, whether due to one-man operations, old-man operations, or purposefully constructed exclusivity, etc, etc. Supply is almost always the key factor.


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## SirCutAlot (Jan 24, 2022)

I just helped a working mate with his knifes (Munetoshi) and i have to admit, it is like a kitchen traktor from raquin, if not better after a good sharpening session. Better then the average Mazaki for sure. 

But not wanted  wrong thread sorry.

I go and cut with my Jiro or should i take the Guldiman (this are sought after knives... If you don`t order you would not get one)

SirCutALot


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## ChrisCrat (Jan 24, 2022)

tcmx3 said:


> that's 99% of the knives we talk about around here.
> 
> some of these being harder to acquire than others is just a matter of degree.


Of course, an unfortunate choice of words on my part.
Are these knives so desirable _because _of their limited numbers and difficulty to acquire compared to say Masamoto or a higher-end Sakai Takayuki? Or are they objectively superior products?


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## OkLobster (Jan 24, 2022)

I'd add the vintage carbon Konosuke as well with the Kaiju.


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## Knivperson (Jan 24, 2022)

Ashi honyaki


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## hendrix (Jan 24, 2022)

I’m fortunate in having many of the popular makers knives mentioned in this thread but I seem to reach for Bjorn’s.



esoo said:


> Haven't tried for a Isasmedjan so not sure how bad it is to try for one of his. I thought of Bjorn, but whenever I check his shop there is always something up in his shop, so not quite the craze for his stuff (i.e three knives are up for sale right now).
> 
> I forgot Marko Tsourkan and Devin Thomas.


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## chiffonodd (Jan 24, 2022)

Anything that's 11 meters tall and made of pure iron. Can't be stainless clad.


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## stringer (Jan 24, 2022)

ChrisCrat said:


> Of course, an unfortunate choice of words on my part.
> Are these knives so desirable _because _of their limited numbers and difficulty to acquire compared to say Masamoto or a higher-end Sakai Takayuki? Or are they objectively superior products?



There's no objectivity involved. Simple market forces. For performance it is really hard to beat factory produced Japanese knives. But they are boring and not that pretty and readily available. So there's a demand for artisan produced knives and a limited number of artisans to produce them. It doesn't mean that a $1000+ Raquin is going to chop your onions any better than a $120 Mac Pro.


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## big_adventure (Jan 24, 2022)

@stringer nailed it there - the difference in performance between a Kato and a fibrox Vic is significantly, massively smaller than the difference in their prices. The prices are a reflection of primarily the supply/demand curve and to a lesser extent the craftsmanship in production. But higher or more expensive effort used producing a blade doesn't mean that the blade is better at anything other than costing a lot of money.

Buuuuuuuut... humans are not objective creatures. My kids are _by far _the most amazing people on the planet... to me. I'm not objective, but don't pretend to be at all. My Kato, my Togashi honyaki, several others, are the greatest knives I've ever used... and that opinion is absolutely as subjective as my opinion on my kids.  

Given the availability of extremely effective knives for under 50 dollars, no knife is objectively "worth" over a thousand based on utility alone.


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## WildBoar (Jan 24, 2022)

Devin Thomas...


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 24, 2022)

Yoshikane and Gesshin.

Oh wait, you probably don't mean sought after by me specifically...


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## ChrisCrat (Jan 24, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> @stringer But higher or more expensive effort used producing a blade doesn't mean that the blade is better at anything other than costing a lot of money.


They are good at appealing to a certain aesthetic which factory knives don't appeal to 
Something in-between art and a tool then. Those Dalman's certainly look cool.

Of course a knife from a single artisan appeals to me more than one from a big factory as well. As a new member I was just curious what made these knives more desirable than other knives of a similar price.


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 24, 2022)

stringer said:


> There's no objectivity involved. Simple market forces. For performance it is really hard to beat factory produced Japanese knives. But they are boring and not that pretty and readily available. So there's a demand for artisan produced knives and a limited number of artisans to produce them. It doesn't mean that a $1000+ Raquin is going to chop your onions any better than a $120 Mac Pro.


Not sure I agree with all of that. How many factory, by which I assume you're inferring mass-produced, knives are using steels like Aogami and Shirogami, and are heat treated to the same hardness as a TF for example. There is a subtlety and complexity to the geometry of a Yoshiaki Fujiwara blade that I've never seen duplicated in a stamped or machine forged blade. All these factors contribute to the 'performance' of the blade, be it edge retention, sharpness whilst retaining durability or food release. Yes, there is a premium for the connection to the maker and his/her backstory but its a lot more than that IMHO.


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## ChrisCrat (Jan 24, 2022)

That is why I struck the comparison with Masamoto and Takayuki at a similar price point, rather than true factory knives like Global or Mac. To my understanding these are bigger forges than the smaller one-man shows but still use the same methods and steels, unlike the bigger factories.


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## JASinIL2006 (Jan 24, 2022)

I'm waiting for someone to start the "most sought after Serbian cleaver" thread...


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## talcum (Jan 24, 2022)

Now wait, I've now tried the Kato santoku (lowers head in shame) and it isn't a better cutter than the Kramer Zwillig FC61 mass produced santoku. I'd even say the handle isn't as nice (both westerns). But my 6.8 sun Carter is significantly better than the Kei Kobayashi SG2 210 mm at the same length. And the 240 mm Wat (post Carter resharpen) is better in almost all ways than the Ryky 240 "burrfection knife" (again head hangs in shame) I purchased. The only way it is worse is reactivity, being blue #1 vs Aus8. So there is some value added for the "maker's mark" in those cases. The more interesting comparison is to the Wootz or Muteki knives I own from not as well known makers. The Muteki (Alex Horn) I have is very nice.


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## shinyunggyun (Jan 24, 2022)

Knivperson said:


> Takada Suiboku damascus


Nope. Not by a long shot. Not in the same class as Kato at all.


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## Rangen (Jan 24, 2022)

ChrisCrat said:


> Are these mostly niche/collector's makers?



You'd think so, wouldn't you? And maybe it is, in some cases. But I got a Raquin curved butcher knife here, and it puts everything else I've used for that job to shame, by a large margin.


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## stringer (Jan 24, 2022)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Not sure I agree with all of that. How many factory, which I assume you mean mass-produced, knives are using steels like Aogami and Shirogami, which are heat treated to the same hardness as a TF for example. There is a subtlety and complexity to the geometry of a Yoshiaki Fujiwara blade that I've never seen duplicated in a stamped or machine forged blade. All these factors contribute to the 'performance' of the blade, be it edge retention, sharpness whilst retaining durability or food release. Yes, there is a premium for the connection to the maker and his/her backstory but its a lot more than that IMHO.



My point stands that it's all subjective. And your definition of performance is also subjective. For me performance is related to will this make my job easier or faster? When I personally buy knives strictly for performance I buy Ashi Gingas and Kanehides. I know those knives will make my job easiest. The right balance of sharpness, hardness, toughness, retention, etc to give me a good balance between cutting, maintenance, comfort, durability, etc.

Now I also own custom knives from one man Western shops and boutique Japanese makers that I paid a lot more money for. I use them at work because they make me feel like a badass. Not because they make me faster or make my food taste better. This will not be the same for all chefs. And who knows what home cooks obsessed with distal taper and edge retention and blade hardness and food release and exotic steels and choil shots and eased spines and yada yada yada. They undoubtedly measure performance in different ways. And whatever you gotta tell yourself to justify the expense. But for me it's true (unless it's my wife asking and then yes, that fancy knife is definitely absolutely necessary for me to be able to do my job).


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## M1k3 (Jan 24, 2022)

JASinIL2006 said:


> I'm waiting for someone to start the "most sought after Serbian cleaver" thread...


@Isasmedjan


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## OldSaw (Jan 24, 2022)

stringer said:


> There's no objectivity involved. Simple market forces. For performance it is really hard to beat factory produced Japanese knives. But they are boring and not that pretty and readily available. So there's a demand for artisan produced knives and a limited number of artisans to produce them. It doesn't mean that a $1000+ Raquin is going to chop your onions any better than a $120 Mac Pro.





big_adventure said:


> @stringer nailed it there - the difference in performance between a Kato and a fibrox Vic is significantly, massively smaller than the difference in their prices. The prices are a reflection of primarily the supply/demand curve and to a lesser extent the craftsmanship in production. But higher or more expensive effort used producing a blade doesn't mean that the blade is better at anything other than costing a lot of money.
> 
> Buuuuuuuut... humans are not objective creatures. My kids are _by far _the most amazing people on the planet... to me. I'm not objective, but don't pretend to be at all. My Kato, my Togashi honyaki, several others, are the greatest knives I've ever used... and that opinion is absolutely as subjective as my opinion on my kids.
> 
> Given the availability of extremely effective knives for under 50 dollars, no knife is objectively "worth" over a thousand based on utility alone.


Thanks guys, I think you just saved me from spending another thousand dollars. It all started because I needed a slicer for thanksgiving. A $1,000+++ later after multiple “sale” invitations I would say my two favorites are a Tojiro Flash 8” chef and 5” petty.


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## daveb (Jan 24, 2022)

But you can quantify the subjectivity somewhat. 

Western makers command more $/knife than their Japanese counterparts. Many reasons have been suggested, I don't think it matters why so much as that it is.

From makers that have spent time here as sponsors it could be easily argued that Haburn and Bloodroot are the most sought after - their spec knives sell as soon as they are put up and their wait lists are 5+ years. And both turn out a respectable amount of product.

By this measure Marko and Devin are right up there as well. (Though I don't know if Hoss is actually producing new knives at this time) Martell's knives are certainly coveted. And I'm sure there's many that I'm not thinking of or not aware of.


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## timebard (Jan 24, 2022)

My two cents is that the most sought-after makers can have subtle performance characteristics that are hard or impossible to find from Japanese knives made at a larger scale. But the differences are small, and almost entirely irrelevant to cooking good food. 

I was reading an older review of a Dalman and the writer said something to the effect of "the only performance metric that matters to me as a home cook is smiles per cut." I get more smiles per cut from a Yoshikane than a Victorinox, and more yet from a Kippington than a Yoshi. Part of that is that it takes some small but measurable amount of force less to cut a carrot or whatever, but most of it is just subjective impression of "wow this is a joy to use."


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## stringer (Jan 24, 2022)

This is my favorite knife for sheer performance. No frills. Cost me less than $40.


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## ethompson (Jan 24, 2022)

stringer said:


> This is my favorite knife for sheer performance. No frills. Cost me less than $40.
> 
> View attachment 162367


Ill give you tree-fiddy for it! Man that looks like a veg-prep monster! Rectangles > triangles!!! (sometimes)


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## BillHanna (Jan 24, 2022)

Hey @WiriWiri, @stringer needs a handle. You got one?


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## stringer (Jan 24, 2022)

ethompson said:


> Ill give you tree-fiddy for it! Man that looks like a veg-prep monster! Rectangles > triangles!!! (sometimes)



NFS. At any price. Performance is more important than money.


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## GoodMagic (Jan 24, 2022)

I would add Micheal Rader.


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## captaincaed (Jan 24, 2022)

It's a mean joke, but that's pretty standard. The average user here isn't too much of a deviant.


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## captaincaed (Jan 24, 2022)

.


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## Bico Doce (Jan 24, 2022)

In almost anything there is a diminishing return when pushing for top performance. You tend to pay a lot of money to increase performance by a marginal gain when you get to the top. An artisan knife worth $800 will not outperform a $40 fibrox by a factor of 20. That is not to say it isn’t worth it but you just have to accept that in order to experience the pinnacle of knife making you need to pay a master bladesmith what he is worth to get you there. I absolutely believe that some, not all, of the higher end knives outperform some of the tried and true favorites. Then there are knives where you pay a premium for the look, artistry or just hype but they can’t deliver the goods in the kitchen. Not going to point fingers but you know what I’m talking about.


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## tcmx3 (Jan 24, 2022)

whenever someone has said that {thing x} blows away {well respected thing y} and I believed them enough to part with my own money, I regretted it.

there are very few people who I trust to be objective about such things. my observation is that whatever the last thing someone spent a huge amount of money on is the best. it's way better than everything else.

until it's for sale on BST because of the new next best thing ever that's way better.

I remember a guy on The Gear Page who would write these War & Peace length rants about his search for a guitar to match his (long gone) vintage 64. every time he got a new guitar the old one went up for sale, and boy the new one was just SO MUCH BETTER. not even a comparison. the old one was dogshit in comparison to this new one.

well I took it upon myself one day to actually track through and you know this guy had done this like 7 or 8 times.

there's a ton of difference between some of these knives in terms of how they go about doing what they do, but people are just completely lacking in objectivity about the fact that most of these folks know and respect and learn from each other. 

except for TF those things suck. next.


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## daveb (Jan 24, 2022)

tcmx3 said:


> except for TF those things suck. next.





WTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTF


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## Bico Doce (Jan 24, 2022)

I will just add because the discussion of performance vs cost came up, Markin offers some of the best value out there. You can get one of his 52100’s for slightly more than a Yoshi skd. I don’t know why he doesn’t have the hype and isn’t a name you hear often in these types of discussions


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## ModRQC (Jan 24, 2022)

I think western makers tend to charge more because they can. Most of these guys won their market by sheer performance/excellence. Doesn't mean you'll love them.

Some of the coveted Japanese makers... don't think "performance" or "overall excellence" describes well what you're paying for. Legendary HT you'll never have the means to test and see what good it's really nowadays. Rarities. Hand finishes. That's what you're mostly paying for. I'm sorry but while I can see that a made name at some point must have put out extraordinary units, I've also been proven they were extraordinary units at their original prices that since then inflated to levels some of the old timers find difficult to swallow. Looking at BST again, most sold legendary units are claimed BNIB, or might have been polished with the highet skills but never truly used in rare cases. Many a real "I want to try that quality" member have been saying they were mostly not impressed by Shigs or Katos for example. Perhaps you can blame them to be ignorant, but performance has only one law: it doesn't care who's is the eye of the beholder. And when you get praise of these high ends, you mostly get praises of their legendary makings.

And I guess paying north of 1K$ for a knife, you won't exactly be caught saying that while it's all it's supposed to be to some degree, where performance is concerned you had your wilder kicks with a S. Tanaka, Shiro Kamo or Wakui of this world.


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## Jason183 (Jan 25, 2022)

I won’t think of high performance knife(Yoshikane for example) when I see “most sought after” knives, but it should be at least can perform so ppl not just buying it for displaying Art.

Most sought after knives IMO are the ones with Reputable brand/names liked Kato/Shige and some Western makers mentioned on this thread with many years of knife making experiences plus rarity(high demand low supply).

For example Masamoto or Konosuke is not the most sought after brand, but their specific Gyuto KS(in the past) or Kaiju(present) is considered most sought after because of the rarity.


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## shinyunggyun (Jan 25, 2022)

I didn't realize that the most sought after knives were made by western custom makers. But what about the Japanese side? What are some more of the most sought after gyutos made by Japanese craftsmen?


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## M1k3 (Jan 25, 2022)

Ashi Honyaki


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## tchan001 (Jan 25, 2022)

Comet


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## rickbern (Jan 25, 2022)

Bico Doce said:


> In almost anything there is a diminishing return when pushing for top performance. You tend to pay a lot of money to increase performance by a marginal gain when you get to the top. An artisan knife worth $800 will not outperform a $40 fibrox by a factor of 20. That is not to say it isn’t worth it but you just have to accept that in order to experience the pinnacle of knife making you need to pay a master bladesmith what he is worth to get you there. I absolutely believe that some, not all, of the higher end knives outperform some of the tried and true favorites. Then there are knives where you pay a premium for the look, artistry or just hype but they can’t deliver the goods in the kitchen. Not going to point fingers but you know what I’m talking about.


I don't think it's so much a question of whether these knives will outperform a fibrox by a factor of 20, (c'mon, nobody's deciding between a house knife and a @Kippington) but will they outperform my Gengetsu by a factor of 4? Or even a noticeable amount?

I've truthfully never been curious enough to find out. I'd rate my gengetsu higher than my wakui migata, but I use them both equally. I bet the gengetsu costs almost twice as much as the wakui, and it's definitely better. I can't quantify "twice as good" but given the numbers involved it was worth it to me.


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## RockyBasel (Jan 25, 2022)

tchan001 said:


> Comet


You got a lucky one recently, heh-heh


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## RockyBasel (Jan 25, 2022)

I think there are “in demand” and “cult”

there are too many to put on a list, but to force it to say 4-5

in demand Western:
Raquin
Xerses
Yanick
.9
Dalman 

“Cult”
OMG, Billip, perhaps Oatley, etc

in demand japanese
Kato
Shig
Ashi Honyaki
Kaiju
Y Tanaka + exotic steel + mysterious sharpener - vintage carbon Damascus, etc
Toyama Honyaki

Cult
Jiro, plus there is another Japanese smith who does tamahagane artistry knives (forget his name)

I don’t know where to put TF and Wat as they are easily available - but are outstanding


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## Migraine (Jan 25, 2022)

GoodMagic said:


> I would add Micheal Rader.



This is the one that immediately popped into my mind. I've never even had one, but the money they go for and speed they sell is always pretty wild.


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## Krisman (Jan 25, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> Besides the obvious like Kato, konosuke Kaiju, shigefusa, or tsukasa hinoura


Global


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## daddy yo yo (Jan 25, 2022)

It all depends which hype train we‘re currently on…


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 25, 2022)

stringer said:


> This is my favorite knife for sheer performance. No frills. Cost me less than $40.
> 
> View attachment 162367





ethompson said:


> Ill give you tree-fiddy for it! Man that looks like a veg-prep monster! Rectangles > triangles!!! (sometimes)



He's got the videos to prove it!


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## DF18 (Jan 25, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> He's got the videos to prove it!



This is my new favorite cutting video (I didn’t have any old favorite cutting video). Surgical beater, I love it and I want one.


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## Bico Doce (Jan 25, 2022)

rickbern said:


> but will they outperform my Gengetsu by a factor of 4? Or even a noticeable amount?


I think the key word here is “noticeable”. This hypothetical knife may cost twice as much but because of diminishing returns it will not increase performance (how ever that is subjectively defined) by 2 X. Refinement and nuance is what you find at the top, whether or not that is noticeable will come down to the user. Some will say it is worth the money but others may take a hard pass (this probably depends most on how much money you have to blow on knives)

edit: added "by 2 X", i failed to finish my thought


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## Eloh (Jan 25, 2022)

The best performimg kitchen knives are made by small operations (imo)

On the other hand there are super expensive artisanal kitchen knives that perform worse than a cheap semi production knife. 

But there is everything in between and you need to know what you value the most.


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## Logan A. (Jan 25, 2022)

daveb said:


> But you can quantify the subjectivity somewhat.
> 
> Western makers command more $/knife than their Japanese counterparts. Many reasons have been suggested, I don't think it matters why so much as that it is.
> 
> ...


I believe western makers will generally cost more than their Japanese counter parts, but I’ve yet to find a Japanese maker producing Damascus blades (not pre-clad) at a fair price. If the Japanese maker does in house cladding then they will charge often times a thousand+ dollars. Kisuke manaka is one example. 
I find that for Damascus blades, especially non-clad ones then you can’t beat the price of western makers.
Just an interesting observation I’ve personally found in pricing. Damascus or not obviously has nothing to do with performance.


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## Jeff (Jan 25, 2022)

stringer said:


> There's no objectivity involved. Simple market forces. For performance it is really hard to beat factory produced Japanese knives. But they are boring and not that pretty and readily available. So there's a demand for artisan produced knives and a limited number of artisans to produce them. It doesn't mean that a $1000+ Raquin is going to chop your onions any better than a $120 Mac Pro.


Is a Rolls Royce going to get you to the grocery store any better than a Chevy P/U truck?


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## Bico Doce (Jan 25, 2022)

Jeff said:


> Is a Rolls Royce going to get you to the grocery store any better than a Chevy P/U truck?


Depends if you want to enjoy the ride. That’s what you pay a premium for.


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## daddy yo yo (Jan 25, 2022)

Bico Doce said:


> Depends if you want to enjoy the ride. That’s what you pay a premium for.


Correct. And „enjoying“ is a very subjective thing…


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## tcmx3 (Jan 25, 2022)

Jeff said:


> Is a Rolls Royce going to get you to the grocery store any better than a Chevy P/U truck?



I mean objectively?

well, from a certain perspective yes actually.

Rolls NVH, ride quality, the quality of the materials you interact with, the smoothness of the transmission and engine, etc. are all obviously far better than in a Chevy pickup.

even in terms of just getting there safely, since we're specifically talking about a Chevrolet, Id probably take my chances in a Rolls long before a Chevrolet if I am going to get in a crash.

returning to the Raquin versus Mac thing, I actually disagree there is no inherent difference between the two that justifies the Raquin's higher price. Raquin uses more expensive materials and spends more time per knife than Mac. Granted if you wanted to make 1 single Mac knife from scratch it would cost you more than a boat because of the tooling costs, but in the long run the amount of human labor represented by a Mac is simply lower than a Raquin because the latter is a product designed for easy production.

'performance' is the biggest red herring out there IMO. while it's true you can hedge and say things like _money is fake_ or _it's all subjective_ while these are nominally true in practice it's not so simple. gold is just shiny metal that Europeans really liked to pick up off the ground in South America but you will find most folks are literally incapable of seeing it as not having some sort of intrinsic value. so tl;dr a lot of things we think are subjective are not as subjective as we think, and a lot of things we think arent subjective are more than we suppose, it's just easier to identify the latter case


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## ChrisCrat (Jan 25, 2022)

I'm the one who opened this can of worms which derailed the topic a bit, sorry for that.

My intention was not to discuss by which margin artisan makers' knives are better than industrially made ones. I understand the principle of diminishing returns and that 'functional' value for money goes down as price goes up. A Rolex will not tell the time any better than a Casio.

What had my interest is why knives from the listed makers are more sought after than similar(ly priced) knives from other makes. 
Someone mentioned that Wat's are excellent but readily available. Would the latter be a reason for them not to be as desirable as their equals from smaller makers? Collectors will chase after / pay more for a rare knife, even if it is similar in construction, material and performance to the readily available knife? 
Going by most answers I have read so far I am guessing this is the case, rather than that (any of) the coveted makers have discovered ground breaking forging techniques or shape with unparalleled geometry?


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## tcmx3 (Jan 25, 2022)

ChrisCrat said:


> Going by most answers I have read so far I am guessing this is the case, rather than that (any of) the coveted makers have discovered ground breaking forging techniques or shape with unparalleled geometry?



well, it's not so simple.

you can go on IG and find tons of people who make knives at a small scale by themselves that dont see much of the hype that some of the makers here do. many of them, frankly, do not make good kitchen knives for one reason or another.

everyone mentioned in this thread is a seriously good knife maker. I would argue that irrespective of anything else, the market does actually recognize that these folks are very skilled at making knives. 

Watanabe makes a very fine knife. they are not finished to the same level as many of these Western makers. if they were, I suspect the prices would be a bit closer.

so it's a combination of rarity, hype, quality, artistic prowess. they all come together and that's why some of this stuff sells for twice as much as new in minutes.


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## big_adventure (Jan 25, 2022)

tcmx3 said:


> I mean objectively?
> 
> well, from a certain perspective yes actually.
> 
> ...



Eh, gold DOES have some intrinsic, objective value. It's a spectacular conductor, it's stupidly stable (reacting with nearly nothing), it's incredibly ductile. Gold is a very useful metal, jewelry aside.

Most of the value of a given knife is subjective. The fact that it's made of more expensive steel or made using more expensive techniques doesn't make the knife automatically, definitively superior for cutting an onion. I might prefer to use the much "nicer," much more high-end blade, but that preference is absolutely going to be informed by what I know about the knife, more than it's pure performance. And price, exclusivity and appearance all do a lot of informing.

Anecdotes... there was a huge wine tasting done a while ago in France with the goal of seeing how much of the preference of experts was informed purely by taste, and how much was informed by other factors. Basically, the end result was that these 100 experts, which included top level sommeliers and winemakers, were absolutely ass-pulling some things and didn't at all realize they were doing it. Two tests stuck out: the tasting was "blind" but it was, er, massaged a bit. In the first memorable test, they tasted 3 wines. The bottles were wrapped in foil, but you can tell a lot about a wine from slight shape differences. Here, they used one clearly expensive, high end bottle, one mid-tier bottle, and one low-end bottle. Obviously there were several of each to serve 100. However, they put the same wine in all three bottles. Something like 3 of the 100 experts recognized that it was the same wine. The others mostly put the expensive bottle of wine on top, the mid tier second, and the low end third. Recall: this was the exact same wine in all three bottles, and these people are supposedly experts at identifying and qualifying wines. The second test was even more abusive: they put out two red wines. Unfortunately, one of the wines was a white wine that they had colored red. I believe 2 of the 100 testers recognized that something was up. The other 98 identified the white wine + color as a red. Experts - but even expertise in this case is screwed up by subjetivity: notably that an expensive wine is better than a cheap one, regardless of actual taste, and that red looking wine must in fact be a red wine.

Another: I know an ex-chef in Paris. She had a set of... some Japanese factory made knives. Can't remember which, but a big brand. She replaced the knives with Vic fibroxes, and she's a die-hard advocate for them now. She prefers one of those to any of the tools I have hanging on my wall.

tl;dr - everything is subjective. That doesn't make it bad to prefer the "nicer" product. We have the right to like and love and hate and despise what we wish.


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## timebard (Jan 25, 2022)

Logan A. said:


> I believe western makers will generally cost more than their Japanese counter parts, but I’ve yet to find a Japanese maker producing Damascus blades (not pre-clad) at a fair price. If the Japanese maker does in house cladding then they will charge often times a thousand+ dollars. Kisuke manaka is one example.
> I find that for Damascus blades, especially non-clad ones then you can’t beat the price of western makers.
> Just an interesting observation I’ve personally found in pricing. Damascus or not obviously has nothing to do with performance.



This also seems to be true for Honyaki/differentially hardened blades. Western makers tend not to charge much of a premium for them, while a Japanese smith might ask 2-3x as much as their sanmai offerings. There are differences in approach/technique but my understanding is that the result is pretty much the same.


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## tcmx3 (Jan 25, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> Eh, gold DOES have some intrinsic, objective value. It's a spectacular conductor, it's stupidly stable (reacting with nearly nothing), it's incredibly ductile. Gold is a very useful metal, jewelry aside.
> 
> Most of the value of a given knife is subjective. The fact that it's made of more expensive steel or made using more expensive techniques doesn't make the knife automatically, definitively superior for cutting an onion. I might prefer to use the much "nicer," much more high-end blade, but that preference is absolutely going to be informed by what I know about the knife, more than it's pure performance. And price, exclusivity and appearance all do a lot of informing.



the people I mentioned it think it has intrinsic value as money. I appreciate what you're saying but we're not talking about exactly the same thing here IMO

also while more expensive materials, longer hours invested, paying back time spent to learn the techniques etc. may not matter to some nominal version of "performance", the "value" of things is related to how much labor they represent. not in totality of course but it is. this is exactly my point about "performance" being a red herring. to get so focused on it doesnt make any sense at all to me.


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## Migraine (Jan 25, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> Eh, gold DOES have some intrinsic, objective value. It's a spectacular conductor, it's stupidly stable (reacting with nearly nothing), it's incredibly ductile. Gold is a very useful metal, jewelry aside.
> 
> Most of the value of a given knife is subjective. The fact that it's made of more expensive steel or made using more expensive techniques doesn't make the knife automatically, definitively superior for cutting an onion. I might prefer to use the much "nicer," much more high-end blade, but that preference is absolutely going to be informed by what I know about the knife, more than it's pure performance. And price, exclusivity and appearance all do a lot of informing.
> 
> ...



I remember reading that a lot of these stories about sommeliers being bamboozled by wines are greatly exaggerated or outright made up.






About That Wine Experiment


There’s a story making the rounds again , concerning wine and wine professionals. Chances are you’ve heard it before. Told the shortest ...




sciencesnopes.blogspot.com




.

Quick bit of googling brings up a snopes article about the experiment you seem to be referring to.


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## big_adventure (Jan 26, 2022)

Migraine said:


> I remember reading that a lot of these stories about sommeliers being bamboozled by wines are greatly exaggerated or outright made up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I read the story in two different French newspapers back in the day - early 2000's sounds correct. I cannot vouch for the veracity of the story or the quality of the reporting beyond that.

That said, the article you published is NOT from Snopes. Rather it's from a private blog from a wine enthusiast, and said enthusiast created the blog just to refute this story,years after the fact.


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## ModRQC (Jan 26, 2022)

Most sought after gyutos should be the ones you want, nor what markets dictate for prices and criteria to be "better". If that is a rarer more coveted unit of absurd prices and legendery criteria, have at them. Before spending 1K on a Shig or twice for a Kato I'd contact one of the custom maker around these parts for sure.

Unless it's BST value you're after. Seems there's a good racket into it.


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## zizirex (Jan 26, 2022)

The Tier List


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## ChrisCrat (Jan 26, 2022)

That list is interesting. Is there a more complete version with say, Doi, Kagekiyo, Watanabe, Masamoto, etc?


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## Migraine (Jan 26, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> I read the story in two different French newspapers back in the day - early 2000's sounds correct. I cannot vouch for the veracity of the story or the quality of the reporting beyond that.
> 
> That said, the article you published is NOT from Snopes. Rather it's from a private blog from a wine enthusiast, and said enthusiast created the blog just to refute this story,years after the fact.


You are quite right, I should've looked more closely.

This seems a more balanced take and mostly backs the idea winetasters aren't much cop:









Wine-tasting: it's junk science


Noses have been put out of joint in the wine industry, with experiments showing that even experts can't always tell cheap plonk from grand cru. David Derbyshire reports on the chemistry behind the taste




www.theguardian.com


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## Perverockstar (Jan 26, 2022)

talcum said:


> Now wait, I've now tried the Kato santoku (lowers head in shame) and it isn't a better cutter than the Kramer Zwillig FC61 mass produced santoku. I'd even say the handle isn't as nice (both westerns). But my 6.8 sun Carter is significantly better than the Kei Kobayashi SG2 210 mm at the same length. And the 240 mm Wat (post Carter resharpen) is better in almost all ways than the Ryky 240 "burrfection knife" (again head hangs in shame) I purchased. The only way it is worse is reactivity, being blue #1 vs Aus8. So there is some value added for the "maker's mark" in those cases. The more interesting comparison is to the Wootz or Muteki knives I own from not as well known makers. The Muteki (Alex Horn) I have is very nice.



Quite interesting, specially since I have been looking at the Kei Kobayashi 210mm damascus Gyuto.

So, you think it is not worth the asking price?


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## WiriWiri (Jan 26, 2022)

Perverockstar said:


> Quite interesting, specially since I have been looking at the Kei Kobayashi 210mm damascus Gyuto.
> 
> So, you think it is not worth the asking price?



Not if performance is your aim - it’s basically the same lazer knife and profile in a variant of the same R2 steel, likely to come in the form of a slightly different pre-laminated billet for Kobayashi to grind and shape, If you like the looks then go for it, but the swirly pattern seems to be the main reason behind the price difference.


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## DanielC (Jan 26, 2022)

An enlightening thread. Lots of good info. I will take notes  one day


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## big_adventure (Jan 26, 2022)

Migraine said:


> You are quite right, I should've looked more closely.
> 
> This seems a more balanced take and mostly backs the idea winetasters aren't much cop:
> 
> ...



Hey, I admit I had a pang of fear when I saw what you posted. I read the blog post, and it even sounded reasonably done. I checked the comments, however, then looked around for other useful info on the site and found... not a lot. 

Generally, people who "know" wine are very much against being told that they might not be as incredibly awesome as they think they are at identifying different products. This obviously applies to winos, and that applies to many knife nerds as well. People commenting that, for example, TF's heat treat of AS is better than X's. It might be - I don't pretend to know exactly what combo of factors TF or "X" use in that example. But comparing one knife by one maker to completely different knife by a completely different maker means that we are dealing with different profiles and edge geometries, plus we are probably only comparing one example of each. It's not exactly scientific. And of course, if we just paid 1500 for a knife, we are going to really, truly want to believe that said knife is better than the 200 dollar knife next to it, so our subjective opinions can't really be trusted.


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## thebradleycrew (Jan 26, 2022)

zizirex said:


> The Tier List
> 
> View attachment 162642


This is a really good stab at things, IMO. One needs to factor in things like total # made, total # available, ability for a maker to continue making more, etc. I think this does so pretty simply. Most western makers are still actively producing blades regularly, so over time, they become less rare, not more. Ashi honyaki and Okishiba and River Jump are either no longer being made or made in such small numbers that demand will outstrip supply. I think Jiro and Kaiju still have a long production life ahead of them.


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## Eloh (Jan 26, 2022)

True.... On the other hand there are a few parameters that are quiet easy to judge with kitchen knives. For example i remember handling two knives off that tier list above that i couldnt get through root celery without massive force. Those would be disqualified as a chef knife for me  




big_adventure said:


> It's not exactly scientific. And of course, if we just paid 1500 for a knife, we are going to really, truly want to believe that said knife is better than the 200 dollar knife next to it, so our subjective opinions can't really be trusted.


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## Perverockstar (Jan 26, 2022)

WiriWiri said:


> Not if performance is your aim - it’s basically the same lazer knife and profile in a variant of the same R2 steel, likely to come in the form of a slightly different pre-laminated billet for Kobayashi to grind and shape, If you like the looks then go for it, but the swirly pattern seems to be the main reason behind the price difference.


Well, I mean the Kobayashis in general, compared to other stuff. I know that the main difference with the non damascus one is the look.


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## talcum (Jan 26, 2022)

Perverockstar said:


> Quite interesting, specially since I have been looking at the Kei Kobayashi 210mm damascus Gyuto.
> 
> So, you think it is not worth the asking price?


Depends what you want. As a cheap laser, the Kei is good but i would argue the damascus I got is fluff. If all you are about is the cut, then the SG2 without the frills might be an acceptable laser at that price point.


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## Perverockstar (Jan 26, 2022)

talcum said:


> Depends what you want. As a cheap laser, the Kei is good but i would argue the damascus I got is fluff. If all you are about is the cut, then the SG2 without the frills might be an acceptable laser at that price point.



Thank you for your opinion. It's precisely the reason I'm considering it, for being a laser, as well as the Sujihiki.

So I guess it is not terrific value.


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## big_adventure (Jan 26, 2022)

Eloh said:


> True.... On the other hand there are a few parameters that are quiet easy to judge with kitchen knives. For example i remember handling two knives off that tier list above that i couldnt get through root celery without massive force. Those would be disqualified as a chef knife for me



Oh, yeah, there are knives, even really "desirable" knives, which are designed and made in a way that simply doesn't sing to me or won't sing to you. Hell, my own relatively unrefined tastes have changed numerous times in the last couple of years.

I have more free time than most, so every single knife on my rack is kept sharp enough to glide through basically anything. A couple of them came a bit thick (Shig and Denka - go figure) so they received extensive thinning to make them better. One of my knives, a Hinoura AS, is what most on here would call unreasonably thick behind the edge: it's 1.5mm 1cm up from the edge at the heel, at the center, and 2cm from the tip. Yet... it cuts really, really well. It takes a brutally sharp edge easily, and holds it really well - I brought it to HHT4 once, cut up 3 freaking butternut squash, and still passed that test. Hell, I just tested it now, and it's currently at HHT3, without me actually trying to make it so. Release and separation are great. I've never really had any issues with wedging. I could thin it, but it has amazing ku over a great nashiji and I don't want to screw that up. So, it stays the way it is.


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## sumis (Jan 27, 2022)

Perverockstar said:


> Thank you for your opinion. It's precisely the reason I'm considering it, for being a laser, as well as the Sujihiki.
> 
> So I guess it is not terrific value.



to add to the impressions of KK: i have a 240 gyuto (migaki, not dama) and i find it excellent. really thin, cuts thick carrots without a whisper, easy enough to sharpen, holds the edge well, and i don't find it fragile (with my edge at least). f&f is excellent. but the properties that makes it really good to me have very much to do with it being a 240 gyuto specifically (length, weight, balance, profile, grind, nimbleness, etc). i'm personally not really interested in a shorter version, a nakiri or a petty, say, of the same make.

.


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## Perverockstar (Jan 27, 2022)

sumis said:


> to add to the impressions of KK: i have a 240 gyuto (migaki, not dama) and i find it excellent. really thin, cuts thick carrots without a whisper, easy enough to sharpen, holds the edge well, and i don't find it fragile (with my edge at least). f&f is excellent. but the properties that makes it really good to me have very much to do with it being a 240 gyuto specifically (length, weight, balance, profile, grind, nimbleness, etc). i'm personally not really interested in a shorter version, a nakiri or a petty, say, of the same make.
> 
> .


I guess I'll stick the the Shiro Kamo for a Sujihiki. The prices on those seem quite right and the ones I have tried have been great performers. I have only tried the gyutos though.

I was just kind of captivated by how clean those blades look and the red handle.

Plus the reviews said that they can get quite sharp. And since I love the feel of a blade gliding through ingredients...


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## Canadian (Jan 27, 2022)

shinyunggyun said:


> Besides the obvious like Kato, konosuke Kaiju, shigefusa, or tsukasa hinoura


Rodrigue 


***Nobody will get this joke unless they've been around a while.


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## Southpaw (Jan 27, 2022)

Takada no Hamono Suiboku ha turned into a hot item. I have two gyutos by them, including the Damascus and that was just blind luck.

Black Lotus is very sought after as well.


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## captaincaed (Feb 22, 2022)

Canadian said:


> Rodrigue
> 
> 
> ***Nobody will get this joke unless they've been around a while.


Shot across the bow....


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## Chicagohawkie (Feb 22, 2022)

Canadian said:


> Rodrigue
> 
> 
> ***Nobody will get this joke unless they've been around a while.


Lol! I still own 159!


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## Philip Yu (Feb 22, 2022)

Dalstrong...All year long!


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## Jovidah (Feb 22, 2022)

I think I'd rather cut my food with a sharpened piece of flint or rock than with a Dalstrong at this point...


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## Ochazuke (Feb 22, 2022)

I would argue that the most sought after knife is the Dexter-Russell Sani-Safe knife found in 95% of commercial kitchens.


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## M1k3 (Feb 22, 2022)

Ochazuke said:


> I would argue that the most sought after knife is the Dexter-Russell Sani-Safe knife found in 95% of commercial kitchens.


Followed by Cozzini and Mercer Millennia's of varying handle colors.


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## kpham12 (Feb 22, 2022)

Ochazuke said:


> I would argue that the most sought after knife is the Dexter-Russell Sani-Safe knife found in 95% of commercial kitchens.


And also the Dexter-Russell Chinese Cleaver, the most beloved amongst Chinese cooks across America


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## chefwp (Feb 22, 2022)

Knivperson said:


> Takada Suiboku damascus


or even the regular/mirror-polish Takada Suiboku


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## Williamchan87 (Feb 26, 2022)

Ochazuke said:


> I would argue that the most sought after knife is the Dexter-Russell Sani-Safe knife found in 95% of commercial kitchens.


I think where I am Nella's are the most commonly seen in kitchens, however they practically the same thing.


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## Wagnum (Feb 26, 2022)

Masamoto KS. Nice knives but they've gotten out of hand


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## Bensonhai (Mar 2, 2022)

Nigara Hamono Rainbow Damascus


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