# All new to high-end knives - Which set should I get?



## jbonnette (May 10, 2014)

Hi All, I am new to high-end knives. I visited a local Sur La Table with a friend and talked to one of the guys there that showed us the higher end knives that they sell. This was my first experience with high-end knives and it opened my eyes to a world that I didn't even know existed. Yeah, I know that sounds corny. Anyways, my friend ended up buying the Miyabi Artisan 7 piece set. While doing some further research, I found this forum. I'm looking to buy a set of knives for use in my home kitchen. I'm looking to spend 800-1200$. Any suggestions? 

Thanks in advance 
Joel

LOCATION
What country are you in?
US


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Pretty much a whole set. Not sure that I have a need for a bread knife or cleaver though.

Are you right or left handed?
Left handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
Looking for recommendations on this.

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
1200$


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Really interested in a set that accomplishes all of these tasks

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Nothing

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Best aesthetics. I like the layered Damascus look. I like to see the wood grain in the handle. Prefer the darker wood colors but not limited to that. I like the aesthetics on the Miyabi Artisan and Miyabi Birchwood series of knives.
Comfort. Lighter knife.
Ease of use. Use the knife out of the box.
Edge retention. Sharpen no more than every 2-3 months if that's reasonable 



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
No

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes


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## V1P (May 10, 2014)

Hi, pls check out the for sale forum. I have a brand new knife for sale there.


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## jimbob (May 11, 2014)

Me too me too! But seriously, the general consensus is not to buy "sets". For that budget you could buy several individual knives of considerably higher performance. Most important is the gyuto/chef knife which will perform most tasks. 210-240mm are good home sizes. A petty/utility is handy too. Some would say paring, but personally unless you peel alot spuds etc with a knife, i think a 150-180mm petty is more handy. All knives will need sharpening, and the best way is with stones. Its really not as hard as many think to achieve a decent edge and also very satisfying! There are many videos to learn, i found Jons of japanese knife imports sharpening videos particularly useful. These two knives will perform all the tasks you are looking for however there are knives that do some things better. For slicing, a suji (240-270), and for your poultry, a honesuki is made for this (150mmish). You have a healthy budget. Its all very subjective and everyone has different opinions on lengths, styles and other specialty knives. Start with a gyuto, stones and a petty and you might see where you would like to spend more on. Have fun!


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## ThEoRy (May 11, 2014)

Build your own set with quality individual pieces as needed. You can tailor it to your needs much better.


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## James (May 11, 2014)

+1 to what jimbob said. A 150 petty, 240 gyuto and 270 bread knife get me through 95% of what I need to do at home. 

With your budget, here's what I'd do:
Tanaka r2 240 mm gyuto - I believe wa-handled iterations are available from metalmasterjp and tosho
$80-150 on petty/paring - I've heard good things about sakai yusuke, konosuke and gesshin ginga. I personally use a misono ux10 and love it, but I bought it before the 60% price hike...
Tojiro or mac bread knife

bester 1200 stone
suehiro rika 5k/arashiyama 6k/gesshin 6k
DMT xxc or atoma 140 for keeping the stones flat


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## wisew (May 11, 2014)

There will be a voice in your head that says no matter what, you have to get a set - that a set is somehow carefully curated to cover all your needs, that the sight of all the matching handles in your knife block is an assurance of quality (particularly at this price point), that the convenience of buying everything you need at once in one neat package is paramount. It's hard to shake, but you have to ignore that voice - it will lead you into expensive mistakes (for the same price, you can get much higher quality knives if you don't get a set). Many sets are stuffed with "filler" knives to make you think you're getting more bang for your buck, but that in practice actually have no use (*cough*cheese knife*cough*). Also, just because one knife in a production line, say, a chef's knife, is awesome, does not necessarily mean the paring knife will also be awesome. 

Instead, you should get the most versatile, useful 3 knives you can - as jimbob said, a gyuto (chef's knife) or Chinese vegetable cleaver (chef's knife) are the most versatile (although if you prefer smaller knives a santoku might be the way to go), and you'll probably want a smaller knife for detail work, either a ~3" or so paring knife or a ~150mm or so petty (aka utility) knife. The 3rd knife is really up to you and your needs - I find a big serrated bread knife really useful, for instance, but others here don't. So that one's up to you. But you really don't need any more than 3 knives to prepare food, and you really don't even need the 3rd knife (and you really don't even need the 2nd knife if you have the Chinese chef's knife).

It's also worth mentioning that there are several different kinds of Japanese handles (also called wa handles - means the same thing). The Miyabi Artisan is kind of a hybrid Western-Japanese handle, and not typical of most wa-handled knives. Most either have octagonal handles or D-shaped handles (think Shun Classic, more or less, if you held one at SLT). Many of them are raw, unfinished wood, which may require a little more care and maintenance than a riveted Western handle (but not much more).

Also, I know you said you're not replacing any knives, but what are you using now? How do you like them? How do they or do they not meet your needs? That might help with suggestions.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (May 11, 2014)

Lots of good advices so far here. I'd add some practice recommendations. If you want both look and performance then check out Yoshikane (Epicurian Edge offers discount for KKF members). They came in different styles and length, so you could easily compile "a set" if you want. Tanaka is another great option if you can find them in the length/style you need. Both offers nice looking damascus and high performance. 

And there just loads of different knives that doesn't has flashy looks, but performs just beautifully. Some of them has already been mentioned in this thread.
It just depends on what exactly you want, performance or look or both (the latter could be very expensive). Or there's also a completely different road if you decided to go custom: there are great Hiromoto AS knives which provides good performance and stunning look after some work done to them. And you could also compile a set from them.

Don't ignore the part of comment about sharpening. It's at least as important as the knives themselves. 
If you want my own advice  buy just 1 knife and sharpening stones (or a combo stone at least). Cut with that knife, learn its weak and strong points. You'll much better understand what you want from your knives. It could be different length, different handle style, different metal (lots of KKF members love their carbon knives, but there are some, including me, who doesn't care about carbon), different weight or all of these combined. Trust me, if you spend all the money right now you'll end up with a number of knives that you might like or not. But if you slowly start learning about kitchen knives, you'll get a way more satisfaction and in the end would get exactly the knives you like.


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## Matus (May 11, 2014)

Welcome! We will gladly help you to burn that cash! 

The amount of money you have available is more than enough to get you several high quality knives. You should reserve some of that budget to sharpening stones. 

If you do not have much experience it would probably make sense to (1) read a bit more around here (2) contact a respectable seller like Jon @ JKI (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com) or https://toshoknifearts.com or http://www.epicedge.com or Maksim @ JNS (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com - in Denmark) and let them help you. I have personal experience with Jon and Maksim they both are wonderful guys and will gladly help you. They both also offer some of the best sharpening stones out there. 

It may make sense not to buy too many knives at the same time - start with the knife type you will probably use most and see how it works for you. Then get another one. With sharpening stone - if you talk first to Jon or Maksim I am quite confident that you can get 2 or 3 stones setup right away and be set for many years.

Enjoy!


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## mhpr262 (May 11, 2014)

My advice would be to learn sharpening first - the hard truth is that unless you can put a shaving edge on a Forschner/Victorinox (with good stones and a strop, you can use those for your expensive knife later) an expensive knife or even a set of them is wasted money.

I know, a shaving edge is not required in the kitchen, but it is a benchmark of sharpening prowess.


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## Matus (May 11, 2014)

mhpr262 said:


> My advice would be to learn sharpening first - the hard truth is that unless you can put a shaving edge on a Forschner/Victorinox (with good stones and a strop, you can use those for your expensive knife later) an expensive knife or even a set of them is wasted money.
> 
> I know, a shaving edge is not required in the kitchen, but it is a benchmark of sharpening prowess.



That is a piece of good advice!


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## MAS4T0 (May 11, 2014)

Hi Joel,

Being a lefty does potentially change things a little as Japanese knives are generally ground asymmetrically for use right handed.

The options are either to get used to it and compensate for it (which isn't ideal but seems to be what most people do), custom order a left handed version (which often means a delay and extra cost) or look for knives without too pronounced an asymmetry. There are plenty of knives that are relatively neutral, but I personally have never been completely satisfied with a gyuto which wasn't specifically left hand ground.


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## Timthebeaver (May 11, 2014)

Playing Devil's advocate, you don't need to be a master sharpener to enjoy knives like that Yoshikane or Tanaka, which will stay functionally sharp for a long time with moderate home use, and are easy to keep functionally sharp with a ceramic rod/strop. The OP may choose to send them off to e.g. Dave/Jon every now and then for a tune-up. After a given period of time those knives will be in better condition than many on here, if what has happened to numerous passaround knives is to go by.


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## Colorado_cutter (May 11, 2014)

You've gotten a lot of great advice so far. I've got four points to add:

*1- Lefties have their own issues with Japanese knives.* Make sure you get something that is not ground highly asymmetrically for righty users; you want either a neutral edge (50/50 grind) or a lefty-specific one. Also, you may find righty D-shaped wa handles to be less than ideal. I'm a lefty and don't like D-shaped handles, but I don't even care for them if I remove the handle and turn them around, so maybe I just don't like D-shaped handles! Octagonal wa handles work fine for both lefties and righties.
*
2- What you start out with may not be what you end up with. *There are characteristics of knifes that you may not be aware of right now, so you don't know what your preference might be, but as you start to use nicer knives, these characteristics will start to become more evident. Flat profile or a bit more belly? Wider or narrower knives (ie higher or lower blade heights at the spine) ? etc. So, it may not make sense to spend the whole budget up front. Buy, try, repeat, and as you go along, you'll have a better idea of what you do and don't like.

*3- Sharpening is very satisfying. *Once you get the hang of it, you can easily get your knives very sharp at home. There is some upfront costs for waterstones, but they last quite a while.

*4- Pick a vendor rather than a knife. *Get a good place to buy and they can help you out a lot, both with knives and sharpening supplies. The best knife isn't the best unless it is best for _you_. 

Also, as others have indicated, you don't need a whole bunch of knives to do everything you need to do.

Welcome to the forum and have fun with it!


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## Ruso (May 11, 2014)

I understand that pretty much everyone here is sharpenning their own knives, but this is not a mandatory skill. The sharp knife is "mandatory" however. If you do not want/care/no time to learn the new trait is totally fine. Just remember to send them to reputable sharpener in your are when they get dull.


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## jbonnette (May 11, 2014)

wisew said:


> There will be a voice in your head that says no matter what, you have to get a set...
> 
> Also, I know you said you're not replacing any knives, but what are you using now? How do you like them? How do they or do they not meet your needs? That might help with suggestions.



Lol, you are right. The voice in my head is saying "set". The aesthetics are a big thing to me...so the set is appealing. But, I think there is a wisdom in getting one or two knives to better learning my tastes.

I haven't done much cooking at all in the last 5 or so years... mostly my wife. I'm getting back into it now. So truthfully, I am starting from scratch and am learning techniques online. We have a set of Henckels Ever Edge. They are terrible.




MAS4T0 said:


> Hi Joel,
> 
> Being a lefty does potentially change things a little as Japanese knives are generally ground asymmetrically for use right handed.
> 
> The options are either to get used to it and compensate for it (which isn't ideal but seems to be what most people do), custom order a left handed version (which often means a delay and extra cost) or look for knives without too pronounced an asymmetry. There are plenty of knives that are relatively neutral, but I personally have never been completely satisfied with a gyuto which wasn't specifically left hand ground.



Is there specific verbiage to look for on how the knife is ground?

How would I make a special order for a lefty?



Timthebeaver said:


> Playing Devil's advocate, you don't need to be a master sharpener to enjoy knives like that Yoshikane or Tanaka, which will stay functionally sharp for a long time with moderate home use, and are easy to keep functionally sharp with a ceramic rod/strop. The OP may choose to send them off to e.g. Dave/Jon every now and then for a tune-up. After a given period of time those knives will be in better condition than many on here, if what has happened to numerous passaround knives is to go by.



At SLT, they had a machine that they use to sharpen the knives. Would that be sufficient?


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## jbonnette (May 11, 2014)

James said:


> +1 to what jimbob said. A 150 petty, 240 gyuto and 270 bread knife get me through 95% of what I need to do at home.
> 
> With your budget, here's what I'd do:
> Tanaka r2 240 mm gyuto - I believe wa-handled iterations are available from metalmasterjp and tosho
> ...



Any specific reason that you would go with the Tanaka? It's a beautiful knife. Just trying to understand the reason behind the recommendations that I'm given. I have a long way to go on educating myself ... but I'm learning as I go using sites like this


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## wisew (May 11, 2014)

jbonnette said:


> Just trying to understand the reason behind the recommendations that I'm given. I have a long way to go on educating myself ... but I'm learning as I go using sites like this



One thing that I would wholeheartedly, 100% recommend is reading An Edge in the Kitchen by Chad Ward. (You can find it on Amazon here or at epicedge.com) Someone on the forum recommended it to me when I was getting started a month ago and it's absolutely unreal the foundation it gave me in such a short time - it'll make this all much less overwhelming, I promise. :doublethumbsup:


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## rami_m (May 11, 2014)

wisew said:


> One thing that I would wholeheartedly, 100% recommend is reading An Edge in the Kitchen by Chad Ward. (You can find it on Amazon here or at epicedge.com) Someone on the forum recommended it to me when I was getting started a month ago and it's absolutely unreal the foundation it gave me in such a short time - it'll make this all much less overwhelming, I promise. :doublethumbsup:



+1


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## ThEoRy (May 11, 2014)

jbonnette said:


> machine



No.


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## ThEoRy (May 11, 2014)

jbonnette said:


> Any specific reason that you would go with the Tanaka? It's a beautiful knife. Just trying to understand the reason behind the recommendations that I'm given. I have a long way to go on educating myself ... but I'm learning as I go using sites like this



Because [video=youtube;V33A2aEgHcw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V33A2aEgHcw[/video] is why.


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## Jaspernowhere (May 11, 2014)

Theory is right, no machine can produce the edge you can get with a combo stone at the lower price range, or nice stones.


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## James (May 11, 2014)

ThEoRy said:


> Because [video=youtube;V33A2aEgHcw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V33A2aEgHcw[/video] is why.



yeah, that. Tanaka knives are extremely good cutters and R2, in the hands of the right smith, is amazing


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## jbonnette (May 12, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> If you want both look and performance then check out Yoshikane (Epicurian Edge offers discount for KKF members). They came in different styles and length, so you could easily compile "a set" if you want. Tanaka is another great option if you can find them in the length/style you need. Both offers nice looking damascus and high performance.



That Yoshikane is beautiful for sure. Looks to be right handed. Is it possible to buy a right handed, then get it converted to a lefty?




ThEoRy said:


> Because [video=youtube;V33A2aEgHcw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V33A2aEgHcw[/video] is why.



I can respect that reasoning . So it looks like Tanaka has some left handed knives but I can't seem to find any of their gyutos in a lefty version .

I'm wondering if I should get a "starter" chef's knife to wet my feet?


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## Matus (May 12, 2014)

AFAIK Yoshikane gyutos, pettys, sujihikis, santokus, are all symmetrical grind.


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## James (May 12, 2014)

Tanaka gyuto looks pretty symmetrical to me. 

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/17525-New-R2-Damascus-Tanaka-Gyuto-just-got-in


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## jsjs103121 (May 12, 2014)

It'd also be a good idea to start with some cheaper knives (e.g. Tanaka has cheaper gyutos in ginsanko, blue2 and VG10) especially if you don't have much experience in sharpening with stones. The R2 version is top of the range and should hold the edge for pretty long, unless it gets abused in the professional kitchen. But it can be very hard to sharpen for beginners because the steel is extremely hard (Theory and others, please correct me if I am wrong).

I was in the market for yanagiba and deba recently and was really tempted to buy those beautiful high-end ones but decided to go for entry-level (less than $150 each) to practice with them first because I didn't want to ruin expensive ones with my novice sharpening skill...


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## Benuser (May 13, 2014)

Never seen a truly symmetric grind on a Japanese blade -- in fact, on no decent blade at all. Would wedge. An apparently symmetric edge may occur, though. 

I guess neither VG-10 and Gin-3 are the first a beginning sharpener should start with.


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## Timthebeaver (May 13, 2014)

I've never seen a symmetrically ground J-knife. My yoshikane kasumi is definitely not symmetric, but it doesn't have extreme asymmetry either.


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## jsjs103121 (May 13, 2014)

Both Tanaka R2 custom and Hattori FH (VG10) are supposed to be 50/50 according to JCK, but don't own one so can't really tell if it's really symmetrical or not.


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## Benuser (May 13, 2014)

The edge might be. Not the grind.


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## jsjs103121 (May 13, 2014)

Ah, got your point.


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## jbonnette (May 13, 2014)

So, a small update:

I ordered:"An Edge in the Kitchen" as suggested. It should arrive this week.

I am a little intimidated by the thought of spending 400-600$ on one gyuto given my inexperience. So I was thinking that I would by a few started knives to see which ones that I like. This will also allow me to learn how to sharpen without fear of damaging a really nice knife. Could you guys give me opinion on starting with these knives:

Fujiwara Carbon Petty 150mm - $45.95 
Fujiwara FKH Carbon Gyuto 270mm - $88 
Tanaka Gyuto VG10 190mm - 84.60 
Tanaka Gyuto VG10 210mm - 131.60 
Konosuke HD2 240mm - $268


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## Ruso (May 13, 2014)

Interesting prices from $45 all the way to $270. 
From those I would go with Konosuke HD2, very nice knife with splendid f&f. And some stainless petty Tanaka VG10 Petty for example. 
However Kono is quite expensive, and if you want to save some moola on your starter knife(s) I would get one Tanaka and one Fujiwara so you can experience Carbon and Stainless steels side by side.


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## rodneyat (May 13, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Interesting prices from $45 all the way to $270.
> From those I would go with Konosuke HD2, very nice knife with splendid f&f. And some stainless petty Tanaka VG10 Petty for example.
> However Kono is quite expensive, and if you want to save some moola on your starter knife(s) I would get one Tanaka and one Fujiwara so you can experience Carbon and Stainless steels side by side.



100% agree. Start really cheap if you want something to learn on. The Konosuke is a great knife but not one I would recommend for "learning" IMO, that's one you would want as one of your long term keepers.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (May 13, 2014)

Konosuke is a great knife for starters, as you'll get a very light and agile "laser" that cuts really well. HD2 is pretty much stainless. I haven't noticed any stain/patina/rust on mine Kono so far.

I also don't see why it's a bad idea to start learning sharpening with Konosuke. It's pretty easy to sharpen and takes edge pretty much comparable to other carbon blades. In the worst case scenario, you knife would have some scratches on the blade. But it's the knife to keep, so in the end it will save you time and money, as you wouldn't need to "upgrade" your cheaper knife. 


As for cheaper Fujiwara carbon series there was a thread recently where several users reported that FKH series was no better then stainless FKM, so why bother if you can get cheaper FKM with pretty much the same performance?

Tanaka's knives offers great value for the money, so you can't go wrong with them either.


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## daddy yo yo (May 13, 2014)

Personally, I would go for the Kono only and leave all the others... ;-)


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## jbonnette (May 14, 2014)

So I made a slightly modified purchase:

Tanaka Petty VG10
Tanaka Gyuto Blue Steel #2 190mm
Tanaka Gyuto VG10 210mm
Konosuke HD2 240mm

Looking forward to having them!


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## Atokade (May 14, 2014)

jbonnette said:


> So I made a slightly modified purchase:
> 
> Tanaka Petty VG10
> Tanaka Gyuto Blue Steel #2 190mm
> ...



Nice, congrats! What was the reason for the three different gyuto sizes, if you don't mind me asking?


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## jbonnette (May 14, 2014)

I really have very little experience with chef's knives. I'm trying to get a taste of what I might prefer in terms of size and materials. The plan is to try them out and then sell or gift the ones that I don't use. 



Atokade said:


> Nice, congrats! What was the reason for the three different gyuto sizes, if you don't mind me asking?


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## James (May 14, 2014)

nice haul!


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## Mute-on (May 14, 2014)

jbonnette said:


> So I made a slightly modified purchase:
> 
> Tanaka Petty VG10
> Tanaka Gyuto Blue Steel #2 190mm
> ...



Congratulations on your first purchase of J knives. Personally, I think you will learn a lot from the different steels and sizes. I do predict the Kono becoming your favourite, after you spend some time improving knife skills with the 190/210. 

All the best, and enjoy!

Cheers,

J


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## gozanryu (May 17, 2014)

Wow, what an informative thread. I particularly like the idea that the group think is actually working toward answering the OP's questions and addressing his concerns. I have read with interest the comments on sharpening as a necessary skill set etc. I personally have had the opportunity to cut allot of things with allot of different knives over the last 40 or so years. To me, knives and edges are kind of like cars. If you like fast cars, there are ways to get it done that span the money rainbow, just like knives, same with sharpening. I have used a 600ish hardware carborundum brick to sharpen allot of knives for line cooks etc, I have used a diamond coated rod at about 600 to sharpen knives that cut literally tons of fish (until the knife was ground away an tossed, and another new pulled from beneath the station) They all did there jobs admirably. When the gears are switched to "high end" knives, naturally, we feel that the "high end" edge is necessary to realize the full potential of those blades. I often wonder how often the "Wielder" is high end enough to notice? I don't mean seasoned knife enthusiasts of course. For example, I have several Chef friends that I actually cringe at when in their kitchens watching them "sharpen" a knife. I just recently watched a very respected TV type chef slapping a very nice Goko Carbon on a butcher steel. Eeek I thought, but, as the service rolled out, the food was tremendous. I think he likens the knife to a hammer or lawnmower, a tool. I asked him where the knife came from. Someone had given it to him. I said: " thats not a Sab Bro", he laughed and said "its a knife Ken" I couldn't help but laugh. I guess my point is, perhaps what we need is very divorced from what we want. I can remember when the idea of $1200 knife sets was so ludicrous, I would've dismissed it offhandedly. Now, I ponder the benefit of some esoteric stone to fit in between a 8000 and a 15000 or whatever as if it is an actual thing that needs serious thought. Ramble over.:cool2:


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## jai (May 17, 2014)

I have the same knife as theory and its isnt very hard to sharpen I think any high end knife is pretty easy to sharpen compared to something cheap and ****. Just my opinion though


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