# Avoiding buffalo horn ferrules?



## droidicus (Jul 1, 2019)

I have noticed some wa handled knife descriptions specify that they are made with buffalo horn ferrules, but I would prefer to avoid knives that use buffalo horn. If a wa handled knife doesn't specify in the description, does it normally have a horn ferrule, or should I assume another material as a default?


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## rickbern (Jul 1, 2019)

I’d advise checking. 

At the price range you’re looking at I’d assume everything is real Buffalo horn. 

Talk to the vendor though, they may swap handles for you.


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## Xenif (Jul 1, 2019)

You can ask for the knife without handle (ask the retailer first). Then send it to a custom handle maker to get whatever material you fancy, the choices are just endless. May I ask why not buffalo horn? They were used traditional to make sure the handle didnt split. Western handles will also work if you are looking at no horn


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## HRC_64 (Jul 1, 2019)

buffalo horn its one of the best handle materials...
unless you're a vegan or something I wouldn't avoid it.


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## Bensbites (Jul 1, 2019)

If you are against using horn due to it being an animal product, I can respect that. I don’t think buffalos are poached for horn, rather it is a byproduct. If you are worried about unethical sourcing, you should know it is an issue with some rosewood/ebony species used in handles too.


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## KenHash (Jul 1, 2019)

What is the reason for wanting to avoid water buffalo horn? Much nicer than the plastic on my cheapo knives.


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## parbaked (Jul 1, 2019)

pakka wood is a good alternative to plastic or horn


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## HRC_64 (Jul 1, 2019)

For a constructive comment, one can get some handles in metal ferrule 
of various kinds, might be worth looking at...maybe bronze or copper, etc?


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## HRC_64 (Jul 1, 2019)

parbaked said:


> pakka wood is a good alternative to plastic or horn



Resins like epoxy (in stabilized woods, non-traditional handle installs, etc) are incredibly useful, 
but not something to soothe a guilty conscience.


> Bisphenol-A (BPA), a known endocrine disruptor, is a main building block of epoxy resin


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## Matus (Jul 1, 2019)

African Blackwood is often used on ferrules , then there are different man made materials like G10, carbon fiber, micarta, different ivory replacements, etc. or also black dyed stabilized woods.


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## captaincaed (Jul 1, 2019)

Arnon Kartmazov from Bridgetown forge makes hickory/metal ferrule handles. He trained in Japan, collaborated with Murray Carter at one point. You'd have to like his aesthetic, but he seems to know his stuff. Prices are reasonable for an enthusiast. His knives will be more in the workhorse category from what I've seen, but I think he would be able to work with you on a specific size.
https://bridgetownforge.com/knives/
https://bridgetownforge.bigcartel.com/products


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## McMan (Jul 1, 2019)

I've often wondered if the all the "Buffalo horn" is actually real horn. I've got my suspicions that some of them are resin. My consipracy theory started when one had a fingerprint in it... too lazy to try a hot pin test.


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## droidicus (Jul 1, 2019)

As for the questions about why I would prefer to avoid Water Buffalo horn, I am a vegitarian and from the research I have done it looks like the Water Buffalo needs to be butchered to remove the horn. Unlike for instance antlers which shed, the horn is with the animal for its whole life. There is some solace in the fact that it is a byproduct, but given the choice I would still choose a non-animal version if possible. I should have probably put that in the first message...

Good point about re-handling, that is an option to look into as well.



Bensbites said:


> If you are worried about unethical sourcing, you should know it is an issue with some rosewood/ebony species used in handles too.


Yup, I went through that when buying a guitar as well. Thanks for spreading the awareness about this issue too.



HRC_64 said:


> Resins like epoxy (in stabilized woods, non-traditional handle installs, etc) are incredibly useful, but not something to soothe a guilty conscience. Bisphenol-A (BPA), a known endocrine disruptor, is a main building block of epoxy resin


There are a wide variety of different resin formulations, not all of which contain BPA. I would like to assume that all manufacturers use food-safe resins, but I am sure that there are some who either cut corners, or don't know the difference between food-safe and non-food-safe resins in the first place


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## panda (Jul 1, 2019)

i prefer to avoid vegans


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## HRC_64 (Jul 1, 2019)

Dalman makes handles with reindeer antlers, which presumably are annual shed (akin to stag antlers). 
He also uses sustainable and local wood in his handles. IIRC are around $80 or so which is pretty reasonable.

I'm not sure there isn't any form epoxy which isn't a cluster**** of petro chemicals...that's the nature of the its chemistry.
Anything like G10, Pakka wood, stabilized wood, etc...are all FRP composites (fibre reinforced plastic) of one kind or another.


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## Kippington (Jul 1, 2019)

I freaking love G10!


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## Bensbites (Jul 1, 2019)

Kippington said:


> I freaking love G10!



As a maker, I hate anything with fiberglass. The first and last time I made a carbon fiber ferrule, I was itching all day. No G10, CF, bone or horn for me. 

Back to the post about stabilization and synthetics. Stabilization uses acrylates, very similar to superglue, nail glue, locktite ect. Once those are cured, they should be pretty inert. Epoxy resin, most manufacturers will not disclose their ingredients, but there shouldn’t be any BPA (from first principles based on years as a chemist). Once epoxy is cured, it should be safe too.


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## droidicus (Jul 1, 2019)

panda said:


> i prefer to avoid vegans


This reply here is why I avoided mentioning my reasons in the original post ...


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## droidicus (Jul 1, 2019)

Bensbites said:


> Back to the post about stabilization and synthetics. Stabilization uses acrylates, very similar to superglue, nail glue, locktite ect. Once those are cured, they should be pretty inert. Epoxy resin, most manufacturers will not disclose their ingredients, but there shouldn’t be any BPA (from first principles based on years as a chemist). Once epoxy is cured, it should be safe too.


Agree. I would also personally use a resin system that is FDA compliant for food contact if I were making a knife with resin. There are hundreds of options available, with a modest premium in cost over non-compliant resins. It seems like a good safeguard to take to me.


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## MontezumaBoy (Jul 1, 2019)

droidicus said:


> This reply here is why I avoided mentioning my reasons in the original post ...



Well, in fairness, although Panda eat's bamboo almost exclusively he has been know to go after pikas and other small rodents .... but he is, for the most part, a solitary creature so doesn't like other panda-like creatures ... kinda explains his answer really


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## WildBoar (Jul 2, 2019)

droidicus said:


> This reply here is why I avoided mentioning my reasons in the original post ...


Ha ha, that's just Panda being Panda. He is economical with his posts, and is pretty open with what he likes and does not like. You always know where he stands on an issue, and don't need to worry about him saying something he doesn't mean just to be 'nice'  There are a few other pro chefs on KKF who are similarly direct.



MontezumaBoy said:


> Well, in fairness, although Panda eat's bamboo almost exclusively he has been know to go after pikas and other small rodents .... but he is, for the most part, a solitary creature so doesn't like other panda-like creatures ... kinda explains his answer really


See? Panda is panda


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## panda (Jul 2, 2019)

lmfao


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## RDalman (Jul 2, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Dalman makes handles with reindeer antlers, which presumably are annual shed (akin to stag antlers).
> He also uses sustainable and local wood in his handles. IIRC are around $80 or so which is pretty reasonable.
> 
> I'm not sure there isn't any form epoxy which isn't a cluster**** of petro chemicals...that's the nature of the its chemistry.
> Anything like G10, Pakka wood, stabilized wood, etc...are all FRP composites (fibre reinforced plastic) of one kind or another.



Not all antlers are shed, many are from slaughter also. So if getting a shed is prefferable to you do let me know because I can tell them apart pretty well.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 2, 2019)

panda said:


> i prefer to avoid vegans



That came from someone who only eats bamboo.


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## Carl Kotte (Jul 2, 2019)

droidicus said:


> This reply here is why I avoided mentioning my reasons in the original post ...



Yeah, I hear you. Sorry that you would have to have this experience here.


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## Bensbites (Jul 2, 2019)

droidicus said:


> This reply here is why I avoided mentioning my reasons in the original post ...


That comment seems pretty tame compared to other things I have seen here.


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## CiderBear (Jul 2, 2019)

@Matus is black dyed stabilized wood the same thing as pakkawood?


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## Matus (Jul 2, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Matus is black dyed stabilized wood the same thing as pakkawood?



To my understanding pakkawood is a type of veneer with many thin layers that were glued together and probably soaked in resins. What comes out may look very similar to wood, but is very tough to wear and fairly water resistant.


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## Bensbites (Jul 2, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> @Matus is black dyed stabilized wood the same thing as pakkawood?



Pakkawood is basically dyed stabilized high quality plywood. Plywood you buy from a home center has its grain in alternating directions so it is strong enough to use as flooring, ect. Pakkawood has its grains aligned so the glue lines look like growth rings. 

You can use most stabilized woods as ferrules. Black pakkawood has little advantages over dyed stabilized maple for example. Some people like pakkawood where the layers are alternating colors.


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## CiderBear (Jul 2, 2019)

Thank you Ben and Matus. Could you go into what a ferrule does and how that changes with material? I think I read in the EE subforum that plastic ferrule is OK for constant high humidity in Japan, but not the climate in the US - is there a reason for that?


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## CoteRotie (Jul 2, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> There are a few other pro chefs on KKF who are similarly direct.



I can't possibly imagine who you might be referring to


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## HRC_64 (Jul 2, 2019)

The ferrule exists so your grip isn't on the end grain, and the end grain will be prone to swelling and chipping.

The various choices of ferrule are mostly all waterproof/higher water resistance and cabable of abrasion resistiance. This is why Horn (think fingernail toughness), fibreglass (g10), resin saturated plywood (pakka), metal, etc.

All those materials are non-absorbent and can take a hit or two without splintering, cracking etc.


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## panda (Jul 2, 2019)

Bensbites said:


> That comment seems pretty tame compared to other things I have seen here.


seriously, what a


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## WildBoar (Jul 2, 2019)

RDalman said:


> Not all antlers are shed, many are from slaughter also. So if getting a shed is prefferable to you do let me know because I can tell them apart pretty well.


Plenty around the area where I live become available thanks to the overabundance of deer who believe they can take on car hoods and windshields. There is an especially large supply at the road racing track complex.


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## RDalman (Jul 2, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> Plenty around the area where I live become available thanks to the overabundance of deer who believe they can take on car hoods and windshields. There is an especially large supply at the road racing track complex.


Haha yea the reindeers up north here can be alot like that I hear also. I was mostly referencing to the antlers I use for knife handles.


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## Bensbites (Jul 2, 2019)

panda said:


> seriously, what a


Please elaborate, I might be cute and fuzzy, but I suspect that’s not what you meant.


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## panda (Jul 2, 2019)

Bensbites said:


> Please elaborate, I might be cute and fuzzy, but I suspect that’s not what you meant.


I was agreeing with you. 

DB Edit: @panda, Quit being so damn Panda.


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## WildBoar (Jul 2, 2019)

No! Never stop being you!


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## daveb (Jul 2, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> No! Never stop being you!



OK. Go to one of Dave's threads and Panda your heart out......


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## droidicus (Jul 2, 2019)

RDalman said:


> Not all antlers are shed, many are from slaughter also. So if getting a shed is prefferable to you do let me know because I can tell them apart pretty well.


Interesting, I did not know that shed vs butchered antler could be told apart, how would one do this?


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## RDalman (Jul 3, 2019)

droidicus said:


> Interesting, I did not know that shed vs butchered antler could be told apart, how would one do this?


Color, the palest ones are shed.


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## Nemo (Jul 3, 2019)

RDalman said:


> Color, the palest ones are shed.


Always learning new stuff on this forum.


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## RDalman (Jul 3, 2019)

Still there's nuance to it obviously, for example I would be 100% certain on only one roll here being shed. The one that's a bit yellowish. A few more could be shed, but I wouldnt be very sure on it. The exterior on them can tell also. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bh7C_Yagrnh/?igshid=dotkwpnh94yw


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## bahamaroot (Jul 3, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> The ferrule exists so your grip isn't on the end grain, and the end grain will be prone to swelling and chipping...


All the wood ferrules I've seen the grain is oriented the same direction as the wood in the handle. So your grip would be on the end grain, which makes no difference if the wood is sanded properly.
It's my understanding that early ferrules only wrapped around the end of the wood handle and were usually metal. Their purpose was to prevent the wood from cracking or splitting from stress from force on the blade.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 3, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> All the wood ferrules I've seen the grain is oriented the same direction as the wood in the handle. So your grip would be on the end grain....



The wood ferrules you are talking about are all plastic 
(stabiliesed=plasticised), you're not holding actual end-grain.

g10, pakka, etc are all resin saturated substrates
so you are gripping plastic with them too.

depending on how they are sanded you...
may have a mix of the substrate+plastic on the surface.

the plastic is there for waterproofing the end grain,
and to prevent shear-force stress splitting the wood
along the grain like firewood.

The ends are subject to such shear force from humidity ∆
(hands, oils, food) as well as dings and chips from handling.

Hope this clarifies my earlier comment.


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## Dhoff (Jan 30, 2020)

@RDalman sorry for the necro, but I would like to ser how reindeer ferrule looks, could you provide a reference? I browsed your Instagram but it was rarely stated what The handle materials were


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## RDalman (Jan 30, 2020)

Dhoff said:


> @RDalman sorry for the necro, but I would like to ser how reindeer ferrule looks, could you provide a reference? I browsed your Instagram but it was rarely stated what The handle materials were


https://dalmanknives.bigcartel.com/product/wa-handle-masur-birch


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## Dhoff (Jan 30, 2020)

Thank you mate


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## NO ChoP! (Jan 30, 2020)

I have done installs of handles listed as ebony and horn that came from Japanese purveyors that were definitely not real horn. Also, they make some very nice faux horn rolls, like those at Woodcraft that I am a big fan of.


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## inferno (Feb 1, 2020)

i also avoid buffalo horn. i try to get plastic ferrules. 1 they look so classy. and 2 they feel really nice. 3 its good for the environment, the more plastics the better. did i mention it looks sooo good?


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## Dhoff (Feb 1, 2020)

Post edited and removed content as it was not phrased clearly and could be misunderstood as being offensive to vegetarians. So sorry.


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## Matus (Feb 1, 2020)

I have hard time respecting people who attack others for their personal choices. Could we raise above such a behavior?

There are different natural and man made materials that replace/mimic ivory or other natural materials. If you are looking for a custom made handle just talk to your craftsman of choice and ask.


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## Dhoff (Feb 1, 2020)

Matus said:


> I have hard time respecting people who attack others for their personal choices. Could we raise above such a behavior?
> 
> There are different natural and man made materials that replace/mimic ivory or other natural materials. If you are looking for a custom made handle just talk to your craftsman of choice and ask.



I am truly sorry og my joke came out as an attack on anyone? It was not in any way meant to be offensive, only good natured teasing because I interpreted the post as sarcasm :-(

I only meant Panda can be outspoken sometimes (and I like as he is). Thus the comment on bamboo. Edited the post now that I finally understood hos it could be interpreted.


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## Matus (Feb 1, 2020)

All is good guys, just wanted to play a bit moral police


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## madelinez (Feb 1, 2020)

Love those dalman handles.

I think people unfairly hate on vegans because a small minority of vegans are obnoxious, better to treat people as individuals rather than what group they belong to.


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