# Best 1x30" sanding belts for stock removal (please read)?



## Matus

Before I get laughed out of the room, I am planning to get a 2x72" belt sander later down the road, but now just to ease me from filing the bevels by hand I just got a 'baby belt sander" in 1x30" size. It was delivered today. I just quickly tested it with the included belt (some low quality, probably only suitable for wood with grit 80) and piece of D2 - and it cuts! 

I mean - it only has 250W (1/3 hp), but I did not see the rpms dropping when I pushed with reasonable force and even the sub-par belt was able to give me some reasonable material removal. So this could actually work.

Anyhow - I am not on the search for the best 1x30" belts that are out there. I know that this is not the mainstream size (not for knife making at least) and that the selection of high quality grits is going to be limited.

I have got a few blue zirconia *Klingspor CS411X* bands (24, 36 and 40 grit) for testing, but if there is anything better than that out there I would like to know. 

I am looking for belts with grits 36 - 400 (so I think)

I have so far found the following options:

*ECON Abrasives - Orange ceramic* (36 - 120)
https://www.econabrasives.com/products.php?id=276&cat=68

*3M "Gator" 337DC Trizact Aluminum Oxide* (80 - 600)
https://trugrit.com/index.php?main_...d=2024&zenid=8971b5df98cb70d3ed602a76a92c9fa0

*Norton R980P Blaze Plus Ceramic* (60, 120)
https://trugrit.com/index.php?main_...d=2820&zenid=8971b5df98cb70d3ed602a76a92c9fa0

I would not mind ordering from abroad (most of these belts do not seem to be available in DE/EU apart form the Klingspor)

I would really appreciate your input, I have basically 0 experience with sanding belts.

thanks 

EDIT: I plan to make knives (kitchen and outdoor) via stock removal (stainless and carbon steel) and possibly sanding some handle material.


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## Matus

I did not expect this much silence even though 1x30" is not quite a professional's choice 

Anyhow - I will soon be getting some ceramic belts in 40, 80, 120, 220 and 320 (or there about) grit and probably a Trizac A60 (400 grit) belts from UK. it is not a done-deal yet though. Of course I would get more of the coarse grits and fewer of the finer grits.

Should that now work then I will go with similar combination from trugrit.

Does this sound reasonable?


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## Mucho Bocho

Matus, Sorry I can't answer your questions, but I'm enjoying the story. Nothing wrong with starting out small. Probably give you a better feel for what you don't want in the future. Have you considered one of Marko's new grinders? I'm really not interested in making knives but his grinders make me want one anyway. Then you'd also have the advise of an amazing knife smith to.


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## Matus

Marko's grinder leads the dream team. Should I have the option to get one later down the road, I will not hesitate. But after shipping and taxes it gets into price class (my guess is around 3500 total cost) that will require some serious 'business case' considerations (as that would not be the only tool I would have to get, though the most expensive one). There are some EU makers I am looking at, but even then one does not get much under 2000. Large fraction of the price is actually motor and variable speed control. I briefly checked the option of building one myself, but since the only part one can actually build is the frame and the rest must be bought (plus all the tool one needs to to that), it does not make much sense as the difference would not be more than a couple of hundred .

I have just seen a few youtube videos and there are indeed hobby makers that do use these little grinders for knifemaking. So I told myself - if I manage to get even grinds with this machine (narrow belt, low power, a bit clunky), than I should be able to handle a 2x72" later. 

My main point of getting this baby grinder is to be able to make a few blades a month - so that I can actually learn not only how to grind a blade, but test the final knife (I am not doing my own HT, but even to see what HRC works for which knife and steel type requires testing). Grinding blades by hand with a file can be done (I did 3 blades and I am working on 240 gytuo - that is going to take about 10 - 20 hours to grind with a file) - that takes too long to get anywhere with the amount of time I have available.


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## Chuckles

I haven't ground any steel that wasn't hardened and I have little experience but have found the Norton Blaze belts to do a noticeably better job at keeping the blade from getting too hot. This is from using a 1x42 and they were recommended to me by Knyfeknerd who also uses a smaller grinder. Hope it helps.


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## jessf

I've got a 1x42" grinder that runs in reverse as its intended to sharpen long handled chisels and not really intended for grinding. That aside, I used it on my honesuki and it removed material like a mo fo. So much so that I still prefer my belt sander clamped in a vise for the bulk of stock removal. I imagine a wider belt will be your biggest advantage with a bigger machine otherwise at the rate at which you say you want to make knives you might do just fine with what you've got.



Matus said:


> Marko's grinder leads the dream team. Should I have the option to get one later down the road, I will not hesitate. But after shipping and taxes it gets into price class (my guess is around 3500 total cost) that will require some serious 'business case' considerations (as that would not be the only tool I would have to get, though the most expensive one). There are some EU makers I am looking at, but even then one does not get much under 2000. Large fraction of the price is actually motor and variable speed control. I briefly checked the option of building one myself, but since the only part one can actually build is the frame and the rest must be bought (plus all the tool one needs to to that), it does not make much sense as the difference would not be more than a couple of hundred .
> 
> I have just seen a few youtube videos and there are indeed hobby makers that do use these little grinders for knifemaking. So I told myself - if I manage to get even grinds with this machine (narrow belt, low power, a bit clunky), than I should be able to handle a 2x72" later.
> 
> My main point of getting this baby grinder is to be able to make a few blades a month - so that I can actually learn not only how to grind a blade, but test the final knife (I am not doing my own HT, but even to see what HRC works for which knife and steel type requires testing). Grinding blades by hand with a file can be done (I did 3 blades and I am working on 240 gytuo - that is going to take about 10 - 20 hours to grind with a file) - that takes too long to get anywhere with the amount of time I have available.


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## Dave Martell

Matus said:


> I did not expect this much silence even though 1x30" is not quite a professional's choice
> 
> Anyhow - I will soon be getting some ceramic belts in 40, 80, 120, 220 and 320 (or there about) grit and probably a Trizac A60 (400 grit) belts from UK. it is not a done-deal yet though. Of course I would get more of the coarse grits and fewer of the finer grits.
> 
> Should that now work then I will go with similar combination from trugrit.
> 
> Does this sound reasonable?




Yes this sounds like a reasonable approach to me. 

You will want ceramic belts to cut/shape steel and then finishing belts (like Gators) to refine the pattern. You'll quickly figure out what does and doesn't work and tweak your line up as you go.


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## Dave Martell

BTW, my core belts for steel are Norton Blaze (ceramic) & 3M Trizac Gators.


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## ThEoRy

I do like those Norton blaze belts. I haven't done any stock removal but for what I use them for, repair, rounding, rehandle applications, they work really well.


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## Matus

Thanks. I have already Sait 7S belts in 40, 80, 120, 240 and 3M Trizact 400 (I suppose the 'Gator', but I am not 100% sure) on order via a member from BritishBlades from UK - he seems to be a go-to guy for many UK based knifemakers. I should have enough stock for a few months so I should have enough time to get accustomed with the machine and see how the belts work for me. If I find I want to try something else I will go for the Norton blaze belts as they seem to be some of the favourite based on user experience.

But I will have to get some sort of dust extraction system for the grinder as in particular with wood (I just played around) the dust was everywhere ... 20 minutes after I cleaned the place as good as I could. Oh well


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## Dave Martell

Matus,
I don't know much about this outfit other than hearing from some EU makers who use them...maybe check them out for some stuff.

http://brisa.fi/


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## Matus

Dave - did you have some particular item in mind on the shop in general? I have bought from them quite a few items (lately a piece of AEB-L which is patiently waiting to be used) and was happy with their service.


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## Dave Martell

Matus said:


> Dave - did you have some particular item in mind on the shop in general? I have bought from them quite a few items (lately a piece of AEB-L which is patiently waiting to be used) and was happy with their service.




I just wanted to share the link in case you hadn't heard of them.


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## Matus

OK, the belts I have ordered arrived. The Sait 7S look and feel exactly like Klingstor belts (the blue ceramic ones) - should I also expect the same performace? Also - the grit was flying off the 40 grit belt for a first few seconds - is that normal? 

The 3M Trizact belts are not the Gator ones. I guess these should be nice for finishing after HT.

I have just ordered a small batch of Norton Blaze and 3M gator from tru-grit just to try them out and have a comparison to Sait 7S.

Anyhow - I am off to get some more steel - it is time to lern how to get the non-serrated bevels done


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## Dave Martell

Matus said:


> OK, the belts I have ordered arrived. The Sait 7S look and feel exactly like Klingstor belts (the blue ceramic ones) - should I also expect the same performace? Also - the grit was flying off the 40 grit belt for a first few seconds - is that normal?
> 
> The 3M Trizact belts are not the Gator ones. I guess these should be nice for finishing after HT.
> 
> I have just ordered a small batch of Norton Blaze and 3M gator from tru-grit just to try them out and have a comparison to Sait 7S.
> 
> Anyhow - I am off to get some more steel - it is time to lern how to get the non-serrated bevels done




Most really coarse belts throw grit for a few seconds.

The Trizact belts you got I'm not in love with. I find them to be tough to work on the platen but nice for rounding and polishing spines/choils in the slack section. You will want to get some Gator belts for sure, they're game changers.


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## Matus

Thanks, Dave. I got the Norton Blaze in 60 and 120 grits (that all I could find) and than Gators from about 180 to 400 (using a conversion table from 3M). I would like to ask at what grit do you switch from ceramic belts to Gators?


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## Dave Martell

Matus said:


> I would like to ask at what grit do you switch from ceramic belts to Gators?




That's a good question! Too big of a jump here and you wind up polishing grind marks left behind - not pretty. I go up to Blaze 120x and then jump over to Gator A300.


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## Matus

Dave Martell said:


> That's a good question! Too big of a jump here and you wind up polishing grind marks left behind - not pretty. I go up to Blaze 120x and then jump over to Gator A300.



Thanks. Seems I missed some grits with the gator. I got the Blaze 60 and 120 and then Gator A100, A65 and A45. I have belts to fill the gap, but the A100 was supposed to be effectively around 180 grit, so I though this would work. I guess different belts work differently at the same grit rating - I did not think of that.


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## Matus

The 3M belts are here (that was FAST and barely any taxes to pay  ) - I am eager to try them out (hopefully soon).

One note to those considering who are also considering to a similar & cheap belt grinder - you will soon spend more on belts than you did on the grinder - take that into account if you are on budget


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## Dan P.

Yes, abrasives are by a wide margin the most expensive part of making a knife (not including time), unless you fork out the $$ for a proper grinding wheel.


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## Matus

Dan P. said:


> Yes, abrasives are by a wide margin the most expensive part of making a knife (not including time), unless you fork out the $$ for a proper grinding wheel.



Here and there grinding wheels get mentioned on KKF - is always the talk about the large stone wheels that are partially immersed in water and thus do not overheat the blade while grinding? Are these actually faster in removing material than ceramic grinding belts?


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## Dan P.

It depends on what the wheel is made of, and how fast it is turning!
I have an elderly cement based wheel which turns at a modest speed and is of limited use- it's still important to me but it could be better.
Other wheels I have used (Blenheim Forge) turn at terrifying speed, are made of Aluinium Oxide and are as good or better (depending on what you want) than belts at a fraction of the cost (per knife), and probably faster (obviously depends on the grinding machine speed, the belt, and the person grinding!). 
I think we will see more makers using them. I am saving up for a new wheel myself. It only makes sense.


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## RDalman

Yes the machine is a means to run expensive belts... Even with a 2x72 you quickly exceed the cost of the grinder in abrasive costs.

Currently I think abrasives are three to four times the steel cost for me in a knife. That is with using fairly economical solutions for both of them.


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## Matus

I am starting to learn how long the 1x30" are going to last. I have used Klingspor 40 to profile a blank for hunting knife yesterday. I did leave a lot of material (I only cut the corners of the steel with hack saw) to be removed with the belt, but after the blank the belt is pretty much done for. I will see whether 60 grit Norton Blaze or Sait 7S will last longer, but I am first going to go through the few Klingspor belts I have. 

Still - the little 1/3 hp grinder surprised me with how fast the metal was removed.

Next step (next week) - cutting out 8x 180mm petty blanks and use them to grind bevels


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## jessf

I imagine you'll heat treat after the bevels are ground, not before?


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## Matus

jessf said:


> I imagine you'll heat treat after the bevels are ground, not before?



Indeed. I will leave some material on the edge prior to HT (some 0.3mm), but I am trying to minimise the amount of grinding to be done after HT. 

I am outsourcing the HT to Achim Wirtz. HT kiln is not in the sight yet.


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## jessf

With a watercooled system, be it a grinding wheel or grinding belt you could grind all the bevels after heat treat. More meat on the blade during heat treating should mean fewer failed blades. If I was going to get into production I would go this route. But with my belt sander being what it is there's no purpose to trying to introduce water unless I want to get electrocuted.


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## Matus

Indeed - water cooling saves time, but it does not save the abrasives (not much at least), so to make some grinding prior to HT makes sense and is also faster IMO.


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## Kippington

Matus said:


> Indeed - water cooling saves time, but it does not save the abrasives (not much at least), so to make some grinding prior to HT makes sense and is also faster IMO.


Absolutely correct. Higher production makers will remove as much meat from the blade as they dare while the blade is still in its annealed/spheroidized state. They'll leave just enough there so the thinness doesn't cause a problem during the quench. Some setups almost remove the need to leave any excess metal behind at all. One master bladesmith claims "...I could sharpen the knives before heat treat if I wanted to."

The difference between success and failure during the quench depends on so much more then just the thickness of the edge. Factors include:
- The choice and quality of the steel
- Ensuring proper temperatures during forging
- The accuracy and evenness of pre-quench austenising temperatures
- The choice of an appropriate quenching medium
- And the level of decarburization and forging scale build up before quench, which subsequently needs to be removed

There's more, but it becomes a bit scientific.

So in other words, if you wanted to get into selling more then a couple of knives a week you'd want to cut down on cost of abrasives and increase your rate of production. Unnecessarily grinding away at hardened steel goes against both these principles and should be avoided by doing as much grinding as possible before the quench.


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## Dan P.

Bear in mind that some abrasives will clog up with soft metal, while hardened steel will in fact freshen the grit. With the belts I've used I'm not sure I can say I can tell much difference in wear rate of the belt, hardened vs. unhardened.
Personally I will grind before HT on HT stable steels, and after HT on more temperamental steels, but that is mainly because grinding pre-HT I don't have to worry about losing the temper.


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## jessf

Does clay hardening impact this as well? I'm under the impression that with differential hardening comes a greater risk of warping and failure in the blade. If I had a choice i'd like to expose my failure rates sooner in the process so I can grind only blades I know are good. Either way, all hypothetical for me as i'm not interested in production. Matus may benefit from the greater discussion. 



Dan P. said:


> Bear in mind that some abrasives will clog up with soft metal, while hardened steel will in fact freshen the grit. With the belts I've used I'm not sure I can say I can tell much difference in wear rate of the belt, hardened vs. unhardened.
> Personally I will grind before HT on HT stable steels, and after HT on more temperamental steels, but that is mainly because grinding pre-HT I don't have to worry about losing the temper.


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## Dan P.

I HT with clay pre-grind because I find the lo-Mg simple carbon steels I use for this warpier than others. I'm not sure if that answers your question.


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## jessf

It does. Thanks.



Dan P. said:


> I HT with clay pre-grind because I find the lo-Mg simple carbon steels I use for this warpier than others. I'm not sure if that answers your question.


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## Matus

Guys, do not let me stop you - you have started some great discussion that I find very informative. Can not really contribute as I am only on page 20 of Verhoeven 

Dan - for the curiosity - what steel do you use for you knives?


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## jessf

The take-away for me is grinding before or after can depend on a lot of variables. I'm into very basic tech, so for me a precision kiln and the control over the steel is allows isn't an option, which makes the HT process the most risky part for me. I leave a bit more meat on the edge of the 4 blades I've made and I've only had the gyuto bend slightly. I could see a liquid cooling setup to allow me to grind post HT beneficial and relatively cheap add on. Again, depends on what you want. I like the look of a hamon so I would tend to try that on all my blades. If that means higher chance of failure then the closer to the start I can get that process then I spend less time grinding blades that might fail. If a lot of expenses goes into grinding belts, then I would really only want to use them on blades that will actually become sellable products.

Anyway, I'm finding there are many ways to do this. 



Matus said:


> Guys, do not let me stop you - you have started some great discussion that I find very informative. Can not really contribute as I am only on page 20 of Verhoeven
> 
> Dan - for the curiosity - what steel do you use for you knives?


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## Kippington

jessf said:


> I'm into very basic tech, so for me a precision kiln and the control over the steel is allows isn't an option, which makes the HT process the most risky part for me.



I have the same problem in that I don't have a heat treating oven, although I plan to get one at some point in the near future.

I've been learning a ton about metallurgy from many different sources over the last few months, all the while forging monosteel blades over a small open hearth coke forge and quenching in water with increasing success. I'm starting to get into differential heat treating now, which I feel isn't too hard if you can quench a blade in water without it cracking or warping. If anything, covering half the blade with clay protects that half from many possible problems!

What I've actually discovered is a new set of minor problems arise when the clay-coat is introduced. Having it fall off the knife before it's supposed to is a big one, sometimes even before I reach the quench. Also, seeing the color of the steel became impossible when I tried a thin coat over the entire blade. I'll tell you what, trying to accurately and evenly heat a blade you cant see glowing is pretty rough to say the least!

But it's all in good fun for me. I treat it as a hobby and I'm having a blast!


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## Dan P.

Z


Matus said:


> Dan - for the curiosity - what steel do you use for you knives?



I posted a more detailed answer but it was lost or perhaps edited?? Anyway the short(er) answer is that I use a variety!


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## Matus

Dan P. said:


> I posted a more detailed answer but it was lost or perhaps edited?? Anyway the short(er) answer is that I use a variety!



Found it, thanks. I had the EU passaround knife in mind and that one was 1.2210.


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## Matus

I have spend about 1 hour profiling 8 petty blanks. The blanks were previously cut with an angle grinder so there was abour 2-5 mm (aroung the tip a little more) steel to be removed.

Here is my first experience with different belts:
- Klingspor (blue ceramic) belts in grit 24 are POOR. I managed to get the rough work done on 2 blanks and the belt was done for. The grains were flying off the belt over the whole time I used it. I do know now that it does not make much sense to go under #36 grit because the grains are very large and get broken off the belt more easily than finger grit grains. I have only one more #24 Klingspor belt and I am going to toss it. I will give the Klingspor grit 40 a try later as I have 2 more.
- Sait 7S in grit 40 managed to get the remaining 6 blanks done and still have some life in it. It also felt faster than the #24 Klingspor and of course smoother.
- I followed with Sait 7S 120 and then 3M Gator A100 just to smooth out the edges. I may give them a go on Gator A45 for more smoothness.

I will be soon grinding the bevels (these knives serve the purpose of me trying to learn it) and I will compare the Sait 7S belts (grit 40 and 80) with Norton Blaze 60.

One way or another - I am actually amazed how easy it was to get the profile done with the little 1x30" grinder. It has only 250W (1/3hp) so I managed to stall the belt here and there, and it is LOUD once you start to grind agains the 'platen' (if I can call that the little piece of metal) as the whole belt assembly serves as a resonator, but hey, for 80 it is surprisingly capable.


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## dkrank

Matus said:


> Before I get laughed out of the room, I am planning to get a 2x72" belt sander later down the road, but now just to ease me from filing the bevels by hand I just got a 'baby belt sander" in 1x30" size. It was delivered today. I just quickly tested it with the included belt (some low quality, probably only suitable for wood with grit 80) and piece of D2 - and it cuts!
> 
> I mean - it only has 250W (1/3 hp), but I did not see the rpms dropping when I pushed with reasonable force and even the sub-par belt was able to give me some reasonable material removal. So this could actually work.
> 
> Anyhow - I am not on the search for the best 1x30" belts that are out there. I know that this is not the mainstream size (not for knife making at least) and that the selection of high quality grits is going to be limited.
> 
> I have got a few blue zirconia *Klingspor CS411X* bands (24, 36 and 40 grit) for testing, but if there is anything better than that out there I would like to know.
> 
> I am looking for belts with grits 36 - 400 (so I think)
> 
> I have so far found the following options:
> 
> *ECON Abrasives - Orange ceramic* (36 - 120)
> https://www.econabrasives.com/products.php?id=276&cat=68
> 
> *3M "Gator" 337DC Trizact Aluminum Oxide* (80 - 600)
> Tru Grit, Inc. | The Leading Edge in Abrasives and Knifemaking Supplies
> 
> *Norton R980P Blaze Plus Ceramic* (60, 120)
> Tru Grit, Inc. | The Leading Edge in Abrasives and Knifemaking Supplies
> 
> I would not mind ordering from abroad (most of these belts do not seem to be available in DE/EU apart form the Klingspor)
> 
> I would really appreciate your input, I have basically 0 experience with sanding belts.
> 
> thanks
> 
> EDIT: I plan to make knives (kitchen and outdoor) via stock removal (stainless and carbon steel) and possibly sanding some handle material.



I just want to say that there's nothing wrong with using a 1x30. It may have its limitations, but someone shouldn't be shamed for using one. I've seen great knives produced with a 1x30 before and 2x72 isn't the only option to up your game. 2x42 belt grinders can be equally as good and more affordable. I even think 2x36 can be pretty solid. 

As for grain material, you definitely want ceramic to grind steel. Aluminum oxide works, but it's gotta be closed coat aluminum oxide. Here's an article on the difference in case you're curious (What is the Difference Between Open and Closed Coat Abrasives?). Open coat is really designed for softer materials and is more for woodworking. It'd be better for your scales if you're making those with wood. While AO works, ceramic belts are going to last longer and continue to cut at the same rate without needing to apply more pressure as time goes on. Ceramic might be more expensive, but you're going to get far more bang for your buck with it.


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