# To Hone or Not To Hone...



## Miley (Dec 1, 2015)

So I have heard conflicting information from people about using a hone. Some people never use one, some people use one after sharpening and in between sharpenings, and some people only use one in between sharpenings.

Also, theres a ton of different options for honing steels. I use a fine ceramic sometimes between sharpenings. I have seen F Dick has about five different styles of hones, from deeply grooved to polished smooth. Also, whats up with diamond hones? I've never liked them.

Do you use a hone? When and why or why not?


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## chiffonodd (Dec 2, 2015)

Much easier to control angle/pressure to strop. I use a fine grit stone (naniwa 10k). Others use leather or felt, loaded or unloaded. Can even use newsprint.


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## JeffSwanson (Dec 2, 2015)

Definitely always hone your knives! Not doing so can cause damage to your knife! Honing is straightening your edge after it has been bent over from use. You want to use a fine ceramic rod when using high end Japanese knives due to the quality of steel in the knives. If you use a steel with high end Japanese knives you risk actually cutting into the steel with your knife thus damaging the knife. Ceramic is much harder than steel, so you won't have to worry about cutting into it. A ceramic rod will still work great on european/german knives, but a coarser grit is a better way to go for those. My knives only need to be sharpened every 2 years because of my honing in between! The angle is the most important thing when honing. Honing at the wrong angle is just as bad as not honing at all. Hone every 3-4 hours you use your knife to keep a good edge. For a professional chef that may be twice a day while a home cook that make just be twice a week. DO not use diamond hones, they are not designed for quality knives. Good Luck!


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## daveb (Dec 2, 2015)

Respectfully disagree with Jeff, IMHO most JKnife users are ill served with a honing rod, be it ceramic, steel or next weeks wonder product. The harder Japanese steel in JKnives simply does not get folded over in use the way the softer German knives are designed to.

A few light strokes on a fine stone or strop can refresh an edge quite well. A steel can chip it quite easily.

YMMV


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## bkultra (Dec 2, 2015)

I'm with Dave... I never use a honing rod, just a few passes on a strop.


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## brianh (Dec 2, 2015)

bkultra said:


> I'm with Dave... I never use a honing rod, just a few passes on a strop.




+1


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## Mucho Bocho (Dec 2, 2015)

Jeff, Your logic is sound for soft steel, say 54-58HR, but anything approaching 60, as Dave B. said, a rod (even ceramic) ill suited. 

Now I'll contradict myself, there have been times that after use, I'll notice a tiny part on the edge is deformed in some way (1-2 mm). Maybe it hit a grain of salt/sand. 

I find that if I strop the edge over a stone, it will catch and pull on the blade. But if I ever so carefully slide the knife over my Mac ceramic steel (below normal sharpening angle), it will straighten out that deformation just enough so that it will run over the stone without pulling. Also, I've never had any of the blade deformations chip or break off either. I'm not recommending this technique, but works for me. 

Note: Most of my knives are hard stainless, but my White Muteki (Carter) responds well to it too. 

Sensei Broidia on the topic

[video=youtube;FStkYx0AH1Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB&v=FStkYx0AH1Y[/video]


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## Benuser (Dec 2, 2015)

Even with soft carbons a polished steel or ceramic rod is only an emergency solution. When working with a vintage Sheffield on a crappy poly board I feel some performance loss after say twenty minutes, and after one hour and a half I really need to do something about it
When I use a steel or rod, that's splendid for a quarter of an hour, and then requires new honing. This time, the effect will stay a few minutes only.
When honing you rebuild an edge that has failed, made of fatigued steel. It should instead be abraded. A few edge trailing strokes on a fine stone do that.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 2, 2015)

Well. Hate to say it but I see people steel expensive knives all the time and they've not been struck by lightning. I know a guy who's maintained a fujiyama b2 with a mac ceramic rod for the last year, and he's a 80 hour/week workhorse type. He's got an incredibly dumb technique for steeling too. Knife looks and works fine enough

I think it deserves to be mentioned that by and large many people (pros included) have no idea how to properly steel a knife in the first place (everybody wants to clang clang like Gordon Ramsey)...

I believe once you are competent in sharpening there is not much use for steeling. Much quicker and more reliable to refresh and edge on a polishing stone than on a steel.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 6, 2015)

Shapton Pro 2K a couple licks gyuto ready to go


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 7, 2015)

"To Hone or Not To Hone..."

This is a question only because there has been an unfortunate conflation of "steeling" and "honing". They are *not* the same, and don't even use the same tool. "Steeling", as you can assume from the name, is performed on softer knives with a non-abrasive steel rod, preferably smooth, but sometimes grooved. Its purpose is to straighten a folded edge, though a grooved steel can remove fatigued steel, but it does not in any sense "sharpen" a blade. The edge may perform better for having been trued, but it is not sharper.

"Honing", on the other hand, can be performed on any knife, regardless of hardness, and uses some form of abrasive, which can be a stone, a loaded strop or an abrasive rod. Performed properly, the end result is the same - a freshened edge that is sharper than the dulled edge that existed. Using a stone or strop is preferred by many because it does not require learning a new skill - the technique is essentially identical to sharpening on a stone - but in many cases it is impossible or impracticable to set up a stone or strop, and an abrasive rod is the only viable alternative. 

Proper technique for using a rod is shown here, compliments of Chad Ward.





When using an abrasive rod, choose one that removes the least material possible. An Idahone is a good choice; a MAC black is better. I use a sintered ruby rod from New West KnifeWorks, though is is several times the price of an Idahone.


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## Lefty (Dec 7, 2015)

I use a ceramic rod/hone on my knives pretty regularly. I think it's a good tool when used properly. Rick explained it perfectly, as usual.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 7, 2015)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> "To Hone or Not To Hone..."
> 
> This is a question only because there has been an unfortunate conflation of "steeling" and "honing". They are *not* the same, and don't even use the same tool. "Steeling", as you can assume from the name, is performed on softer knives with a non-abrasive steel rod, preferably smooth, but sometimes grooved. Its purpose is to straighten a folded edge, though a grooved steel can remove fatigued steel, but it does not in any sense "sharpen" a blade. The edge may perform better for having been trued, but it is not sharper.
> 
> ...



semantics I'd disagree with. A steel is what you hone on. A ceramic rod is just a "better mousetrap" in that sense. Ergo, it's a ceramic steel.

also first mention of NWK I've seen here. They used to make cool knives. Now, not so much.


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## psfred (Dec 7, 2015)

I would disagree. A knife steel, even a serrated one, isn't really intended to remove metal although serrated or diamond pattern ones will if you use excessive force. An abrasive hone, as the diamond cut or impregnated steel "steels" are intended to be, or the various ceramic or sintered ruby hones ARE intended to remove metal. A borosilicate rod with a high polish is like a steel, it's intended use is to re-align the bent apex of a knife, not to create one.

I am of the opinion that over-use of knife steels and hones is a bad habit if it can be avoided, it's not that hard to actually damage a knife with improper use. Even used "by the book" you aren't going to get the same edge you get from stones. I use a knife steel all the time on my carbons, it's works great to "wipe back up" an edge that has gotten bent over with use. Doesn't do much for my Japanese knives. If the edge won't come back with a couple light passes on each side at the honing angle, I sharpen them on stones.

Peter


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 7, 2015)

psfred said:


> I would disagree. A knife steel, even a serrated one, isn't really intended to remove metal although serrated or diamond pattern ones will if you use excessive force. An abrasive hone, as the diamond cut or impregnated steel "steels" are intended to be, or the various ceramic or sintered ruby hones ARE intended to remove metal. A borosilicate rod with a high polish is like a steel, it's intended use is to re-align the bent apex of a knife, not to create one.
> 
> *If the edge won't come back with a couple light passes on each side at the honing angle, I sharpen them on stones.*


That's just it. A steel (grooved thing that henckels or wusthof sells) or a ceramic rod (idahone, whatever) or a borosilicate/diamond rod are all designed with that same intended purpose- to bring the edge "back". It is my opinion that the "steel" steel is a kind of historic remnant from a time when all good kitchen cutlery was carbon (grandma's ODC)... the ceramic borosilicate and diamond rods are all improvements on that same basic concept (having the benefit of actually abrading the knife edge instead of just tearing out fatigued steel like a grooved steel rod)... At the end of the day these rods, water stones, oil stones, arkansas stones leather hones and what have you are all just a means to sharpen your knife. Efficacy of each may be debatable, but that's my two cents.


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## malexthekid (Dec 7, 2015)

spoiledbroth said:


> That's just it. A steel (grooved thing that henckels or wusthof sells) or a ceramic rod (idahone, whatever) or a borosilicate/diamond rod are all designed with that same intended purpose- to bring the edge "back". It is my opinion that the "steel" steel is a kind of historic remnant from a time when all good kitchen cutlery was carbon (grandma's ODC)... the ceramic borosilicate and diamond rods are all improvements on that same basic concept (having the benefit of actually abrading the knife edge instead of just tearing out fatigued steel like a grooved steel rod)... At the end of the day these rods, water stones, oil stones, arkansas stones leather hones and what have you are all just a means to sharpen your knife. Efficacy of each may be debatable, but that's my two cents.



I think you miss the comment slightly. Most steels don't tear or abrade anything. They bend ductile knife edges back to straight.

Totally different function. They wont restore the edge to near original sharpness like honing will as they are not removing any metal.

Steeling won't be very effective on high hardness knives as they aren't ductile enough to bend back without fatiguing worse or fracturing.

Where as your cermaic style rods are just sharpening again. The same as using a stone just different technique.

Yes honing rides may stem from steels but they are actually doing a totally different thing.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 7, 2015)

malexthekid said:


> I think you miss the comment slightly. Most steels don't tear or abrade anything. They bend ductile knife edges back to straight.
> 
> Totally different function. They wont restore the edge to near original sharpness like honing will as they are not removing any metal.
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about efficacy. "Totally different" is very debatable... they are all making a knife "usable"... I am very well aware of the effects of various steels (steel ceramic borosilicate). The end result is always the same, whether I ____ my knife on a ceramic rod, whether I hone my knife on a leather strop or whether I touch it up on a 5k stone... My knife functions in an acceptable manner to me again. I used to use a polished steel on my henckels 4 star. Never saw any chipping, knife came "back to life" anecdotally to me. Again, not sure about the "total difference"... I understand a SEM photograph of two edges may tell wildly different stories.

I only use the rod with my butchery knives at the end of the day, maybe line knife if it missed pre shift TLC.


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## malexthekid (Dec 7, 2015)

It comes down to what you define as back to life.

It isnt debatable at all. A true steel does not remove metal it trues an edge. The new ceramoc rods are essentially just a different shaped sharpening tool.

Now you might be happy with how the steel works.
As for the henkels. Well that is likely because it is a softer steel and the polished steel was doing its job or truing the edge.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 8, 2015)

Just my :2cents: I came from a background of German, French, & Swiss chefs here in Hawaii. Early 1970's when big hotels felt they needed overseas chefs to run the kitchens. A lot of local kids myself included learned much from these professionals. All used steels to hone their knives. I think that is the reason even at the culinary school that steels are used a lot even by the local teachers.

If you think about it Japanese and Chinese do not use steels at all. I learned from trial & error what works & does not work with steels. Because of conditioning I still used steels because did not know better. I found that smooth polishing steels work best to straighten the edge after hours of cutting only a few strokes light press at last sharpening angle. I used polishing steels on Japanese carbon steel Gyuto's & Suji's with success. At least I knew better never to use steels on my Yanagibas & Deba. I have seen the damage to edges esp. with diamond steels from cooks who should know better.

Now largely because of this forum & a Dude down under I feel that a splash & go stone is the way to go to touch up your blades.


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## mark76 (Dec 8, 2015)

I agree with the comments on steels. Jon explains this well. But what is the difference between a few strokes on a fine stone and on a ceramic rod, Ben?

[Edit: I wrote this just after Ben's post, but pressed Reply much later. So I could ask the question to other people as well. As Rick says: the end result is basically the same.]


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## Benuser (Dec 8, 2015)

No idea, really. Must have to do with the very small contact area between rod and blade.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 8, 2015)

Cherry Japanese Imports Co. here carries the Shapton pro S&G. They also carry lines of Carbon Masamoto Yanagiba's, Deba, Gyuto's. My friend Carl at Cherry turned me on to Shapton S&G stones. He said they were popular with the sushi chefs here as touchup stones at work.

I bought the green 2K with plastic base. It is a compact stone easy to transport. It is also very++ dish resistant. If you have a trained quality knife that after hours of cutting is losing some of its bite, you can do a couple sweeps on the 2K and have a crisp edge again taking a semi sharp blade to very sharp in quick time.

It is a true S&G just run water on it ready to go. Comes in higher grits too for single bevels. One of the forum members from Aus. uses S&G for touchups at work made me a convert.


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## malexthekid (Dec 8, 2015)

Benuser said:


> No idea, really. Must have to do with the very small contact area between rod and blade.



I think this is it. Most will just say dont use the ceramic rod as the risk of overstressing the edge is high, given the very small contact area.


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## rhymeswithoranj (Dec 8, 2015)

So, slightly off topic, but would something like a Shapton splash and go at a high is grit level (5000ish) actually be a worthwhile purchase as almost a starting to sharpen stone - a good stone to touch up an edge instead of using an Idahone (which I have, but I'm too chicken to use it on my TFs). I currently use an Edge Pro, and touch up with the 1000 grit EP stone, but I'm really wanting to dip my toes into freehand.


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## Benuser (Dec 8, 2015)

You might consider the Naniwa Professional 2k, AKA Chosera.


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## rhymeswithoranj (Dec 8, 2015)

Benuser said:


> You might consider the Naniwa Professional 2k, AKA Chosera.



Sure, but why the 2k?


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## Benuser (Dec 8, 2015)

Corresponds more or less to JIS 3000, and can be used dry. Leaves a working edge after one or two edge trailing strokes.


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## rhymeswithoranj (Dec 8, 2015)

Benuser said:


> Corresponds more or less to JIS 3000, and can be used dry. Leaves a working edge after one or two edge trailing strokes.


Great info. Thank you. So it's more of a finishing grit, yeah?


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## Benuser (Dec 8, 2015)

I would say a working grit


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## rhymeswithoranj (Dec 8, 2015)

Benuser said:


> I would say a working grit



Ok. Great. I'm assuming you mean a grit the leaves a great working edge, yeah? Sorry for the dumb questions.


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## buttermilk (Dec 8, 2015)

Since I'm currently sitting in a room full of knives and a metallurgical microscope, I thought I'd offer something visual. This is a Hiromoto AS petty that I keep amongst the collection of knives for sharpening students to practice on. Apologies for the bad iPhone images, I need to get imaging set back up for this. The honed image is the result of me trying to replicate pretty careless honing on an Idahone rod. Like, 30 seconds? 6 passes each side? Images are at 400x optical, sharpened in Photoshop. (pun intended)

I wouldn't tell someone to rely solely on a ceramic rod, but I've seen it done. I always kept an Idahone on my tray in restaurants and found it to be extremely useful when I didn't have time to use a stone.


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## Benuser (Dec 8, 2015)

rhymeswithoranj said:


> Ok. Great. I'm assuming you mean a grit the leaves a great working edge
> .


Exactly.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 8, 2015)

buttermilk said:


>


This makes me feel pretty good about my assertions. :shocked3:


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## psfred (Dec 8, 2015)

In answer to the question concerning edge damage using a steel or hone -- yes, it's the very small contact area between rod and edge that is the issue. All the force applied between the knife and rod is concentrated in the contact patch where the curved surface of the rod touches the actual edge, and it's not hard to apply enough force to fracture the steel. 

You probably won't knock visible chunks out, but it's possible, and more insidious is the production of cracks perpendicular to the edge, or micro-chipping of the apex so it looks like the un-honed example in the photographs. 

A related issue is the highly variable force used along the edge as you move the steel and knife (hopefully edge trailing....). Variations of force, particularly in softer knives, will result in a wavy edge instead of a clean straight one, making that edge more likely to fold again.

Using a steel to maintain an edge is just fine, I do it all the time with my Chicago Cutlery knives. They aren't very useful otherwise, they feel very dull. Eventually I have to sharpen them, but regular very light steeling keeps them cutting as well as they are going to. I've not found the steel useful with my Japanese style carbon knife, and haven't bothered to try with the Tojiro DP -- those I simply strop on a dry 6k stone a couple times on each side, and that does the trick.

Aggressive use of a serrated or diamond cut steel WILL remove metal from a softer steel knife, but the edge you produce is terrible -- wavy, ragged, and has a burr hanging off in places. Just about as bad as a pull-through carbide wheel sharpener, in fact. As demonstrated, a ceramic or diamond hone will produce an edge, but it won't be as good as one produced by using stone and will inevitable be uneven.

Peter


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 9, 2015)

Not at all as bad as a pull-through carbide wheel sharpener- that's another ridiculous comparison! I don't want to be rude, but I'd like to think the people (who have or currently are) among other things, processing cases of produce for a living have at least some idea what they're talking about.

I've never said at any point that a ceramic rod is BETTER than a stone. However, in its' defense it does what is necessary in a pinch, and that's return my knife to cutting tomatoes, or peppers or what ever test you like to do-without any nonsense. Sometimes you need to make due- ceramic rods are essentially making the best of what is ultimately a bad situation. I don't think any home knife fanatic would ever need a ceramic hone unless you like to do whole animal butchery, and even that is questionable. I think even aus8 will stand up to at least two medium to small pigs. That being said my idahone has made my life vastly easier on more than one day. I make no comment about the sanctity of the edges it produces, only that anecdotally they will perform given tasks better than they did prior to "steeling"...

btw if buttermilk's second image is a knife honed on a ceramic rod, I'd really think that it's stretching to say it's microchipped - this is based off my assumption I don't believe freshly sharpened knives are totally free of that ragged edge you're seeing... 400x magnification!!


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 9, 2015)

Can only talk from my own experience. Found that polishing steels a few lite measured strokes do true the edge to keep blade going after many hours of cutting this includes harder Japanese carbons. Do not like grooved steel or grooved ceramic rods. Smooth as silk both steel and ceramic. I have both but since retired do not use either.

I have seen the damage firsthand often that diamond steels can do. A lot of cooks bought these things thinking they could sharpen on a rod. Most cooks wailing away on a diamond steel lack good freehand skills. Do not think Peter's comparison is that far off, have seen knives that will hardly cut at all after steel abuse.


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## mark76 (Dec 9, 2015)

psfred said:


> I've not found the steel useful with my Japanese style carbon knife, and haven't bothered to try with the Tojiro DP -- those I simply strop on a dry 6k stone a couple times on each side, and that does the trick.



Peter, what stone do you use for this purpose? I've been considering it, but never actually done it. I was thinking of a Shapton, since that is already a splash-and-go stone. But I don't know how it performs completely dry.


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## psfred (Dec 10, 2015)

King 6k or Arashiyama 6k, depending on my mood (the Arashiyama is new).

When you see shreds of steel on the "hone" the edge cannot look very good....

Peter


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## Soccerman (Dec 25, 2015)

definitely not, if you have enough budget, buy a WE, and when the knife gets dull, strop it with WE, it's fast, and it removes least steel from the knife, when you have a expensive knife, you don't wanna remove too much steel from it.


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