# stone brands



## rami_m (Mar 24, 2014)

Hi, i was looking to buy stones 
400 1200 1000 4000.
but there is a million brands. Or so it seems,
what should i get? 

I am a beginner, however planning to take a sharpening class.

i have a budget of 150$-200 total, so combo stones may be an option.


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## ecchef (Mar 24, 2014)

You might want to read through this http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/84-What-stone-line-up-are-you-using-these-days 
Lots of opinions.


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## rami_m (Mar 24, 2014)

thanks chef. I am getting lost in options here.


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## rami_m (Mar 24, 2014)

my local chef store has the below 
1 x 400 grit chosera stone - it is long lasting and reshapes worn edges quickly
1 x 1000 grit superstone  puts a great intermediate polish on the blade especially considering it is only a nakato
1 x 4000 lobster  this stone is firm and polishes well. It comfortably polishes both ryo-ba and kata-ba blades
1 x synthetic nagura  for restoring the surface of the stones

for AUD$265.00

or 

Superstone set A from Naniwa - three stones $235
1) Arato 400 grit
2) Nakato 1000 grit
3) Shiageto 3000 grit

are these any good for the price?


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## Matus (Mar 24, 2014)

I would definitely recommend to read some more around here.

Naniwa SS (SuperStones) have name as very soft stones that wear fast. Naniwa Chosera have very good name though.

For the beginning you could get something like a King 1000/6000 combination stone or Bester 1000 (or 1200) and Rika 5000 for a fraction of your budget. There are many other options indeed. You will not need a 400 stone right away unless you have knives that need a lot of work on bevels on thinning - none of which is really something for somebody without experience in sharpening.

Taking sharpening class is not a bad idea at all, but starting with youtube videos by Jon (japaneseknifeimports.com) or Maksim (japanesenaturalstones.com) could be all you need. You can also get a DVD from Murray Carter (I did when I was starting about a year ago) - I found it very helpful.

Both Jon and Maksim have super quality synthetic stones, though you will not get 3 stones within your budget. However Jon has 1000/6000 combination stone that would fit your budget (maybe even with the 400 stone). Do not hesitate to contact Jon or Maksim via email - you will get the best advice there.


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## Ruso (Mar 24, 2014)

Just to throw some options.
1200 - Bester 1200 or King 1000
400 - Norton IB8 (while it is not a Japanese water stone, I find it to be a very nice choice when you need to grind of tons of metal)
4000 - Naniwa SS5000 leaves nice finish also some people swear by Suehiro Rika 5000


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## Pensacola Tiger (Mar 24, 2014)

Since you are located in Australia, I would not consider any US vendors because of ridiculous shipping charges, but look to a vendor elsewhere. 

Maksim (Japanese Natural Stones) carries many excellent synthetic stones as well as naturals. A three stone set of the Beston 500, JNS 1000 and JNS 6000 is somewhat over your budget, but are excellent stones.

MetalMaster carries the Beston 500 and the Bester 1200 that are highly recommended. Add an Arashiyama 6000 and EMS shipping and you are just at the top of your budget.

http://www.metalmaster-ww.com

Rick


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## jgraeff (Mar 24, 2014)

I stand behind gesshin stones 100% and glad I made the investment.

I have chosera as well and they are good but I prefer gesshin. 

The bester/rika combo is the best for beginners on a budget but will desire more stones later. 

Spend the cash now or later it's up to you. 

But as others mentioned a 1k is as low as you need right now I'd go with the bester 1200 and rika 5k or for gesshin combo stone or 1k, 4k ( the 4k cuts so fast it really replaces the 2k option and leaves a better edge).


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## Talim (Mar 24, 2014)

If you're buying from Maksim, you should take a look at the jns800 and jns red aoto.


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## Matus (Mar 24, 2014)

Talim said:


> If you're buying from Maksim, you should take a look at the jns800 and jns red aoto.



+1 on that. I have not had a chance to use the read aoto (this is a synthetic stone in spite of the name), but the 800 really is amazing - cuts fast and leaves very nice finish. And both are HUGE. If I were getting a 2 stone combination today (mind you I have Gesshin 400, 2000 and 6000) I would not hesitate to get the JNS 800 and Red Aoto combination.

There is absolutely nothing wrong to get a Bester and Rika, but depending on what type of person you are you may not resist the temptation to get a Gesshin or JNS few months later


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## schanop (Mar 24, 2014)

Hi Rami,

As much as I like and do shop at the store, I don't recommend buying naniwa set there. You can get much better options buying direct from Japan.

I do second Rick's suggestion of metalmaster-ww.com . I have bought many stones of him in the past. Good choices over there are the usual beston 500, bester 1200, bester 700, bester 2000, Arashiyama 6000, as well as naniwa super stone and chocera ranges.


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## rami_m (Mar 24, 2014)

schanop said:


> Hi Rami,
> 
> As much as I like and do shop at the store, I don't recommend buying naniwa set there. You can get much better options buying direct from Japan.
> 
> I do second Rick's suggestion of metalmaster-ww.com . I have bought many stones of him in the past. Good choices over there are the usual beston 500, bester 1200, bester 700, bester 2000, Arashiyama 6000, as well as naniwa super stone and chocera ranges.



sound good. I am looking at the metal master site at the moment. prices are not bad . what do you think of their sharpening classes


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## schanop (Mar 24, 2014)

Sharpening classes should be good, although I have never attended one there. I often look knives being serviced there, and they all look nice.

If you don't mind used stones to save some budget, and to begin with, you can also post a WTB thread on B/S/T. There should be plenty of members here being able to help out to get you start on the cheaper price. Then you can move on to Maxim's or Jon's offering later.


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## labor of love (Mar 24, 2014)

The gesshin and chosera stones are my favorite stones so far but both seem over budget for you. My advice would be to find a way to afford bester 1k or 1200/beston 500/ and rika 5k. Theyre usually priced around $10-15 more per stone than king, but it really is worth the money as they are much better stones than king, generally speaking.


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## Mute-on (Mar 24, 2014)

Rami,

I also second (third?) Rick's advice. Another option is Tools from Japan, owned by a fellow Aussie :thumbsup: His prices on the popular Bester 1200, Rika 5000 combo, not to mention Atoma diamond plates, are incredibly competitive. I've purchased from there and am a very happy customer 

Otherwise just get the full set from JNS and be done with it.

Cheers,

J


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## Dusty (Mar 24, 2014)

Rami,
I have done the sharpening class with at Chefs Armoury, albeit about five years ago. It was a great intro to sharpening japanese knives and definitely worthwhile doing. I've also bought a few stones from there at the same time and even though I could have gotten them cheaper, don't regret it. Face to face customer service is nice. FWIW I don't find the SS 1000 to be fast wearing at all and the finish and edge is such that for some knives thats where my progression stops.


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## brainsausage (Mar 24, 2014)

In terms of grit range- I don't think there's really a need to get anything past 2k, unless you're regularly sharpening a single bevel(true, with ura). Gyuto's in my opinion don't benefit from a highly polished edge, as they get heavy use(shaving sharp is fun, but highly impractical IMO). And I rarely bring any of my butchering knives past 800. It all depends on what your knife set up is, and your end use for each really. I'd focus on a solid 400, 800, and 1-2000. So, Gesshin 400, King 800, Bester 1200, and buy a newspaper once in awhile to strop with. Should be well within your budget, even with the international shipping from Jon.


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## rami_m (Mar 25, 2014)

brainsausage said:


> In terms of grit range- I don't think there's really a need to get anything past 2k, unless you're regularly sharpening a single bevel(true, with ura). Gyuto's in my opinion don't benefit from a highly polished edge, as they get heavy use(shaving sharp is fun, but highly impractical IMO). And I rarely bring any of my butchering knives past 800. It all depends on what your knife set up is, and your end use for each really. I'd focus on a solid 400, 800, and 1-2000. So, Gesshin 400, King 800, Bester 1200, and buy a newspaper once in awhile to strop with. Should be well within your budget, even with the international shipping from Jon.



I will need to think about that. I think I will be mainly working on an all rounder gyuto, petty. Don't have a lot of knifes at the moment. Probably some stuff I can practice on. ( generic cheapies). Will have a look at the options. Maybe spend a bit more and save on the shipping with Maxim. Everyone else charges about 50 bucks for it.


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## brainsausage (Mar 25, 2014)

If you're considering that route...Just go with one of Maksim's stone bundles. He backs up all of his products through and through, and will counsel you on the use of them as well. Hard to beat.


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## panda (Mar 25, 2014)

if i were to do it over again (learning to sharpen), i'd probably try the JCK 400/1200 combo stone 
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/WhetStonesForSale.html#Whetstone


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## rami_m (Mar 25, 2014)

panda said:


> if i were to do it over again (learning to sharpen), i'd probably try the JCK 400/1200 combo stone
> http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/WhetStonesForSale.html#Whetstone



Would you also use the 1000/4000?


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## brainsausage (Mar 25, 2014)

It'd be a little redundant if you already had the 1200. I guess, they'd wear a bit slower, but you'd be better off investing in a lapping plate.


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## rami_m (Mar 25, 2014)

What's a lapping plate?


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## panda (Mar 25, 2014)

yup, flattening stone next. really all you need until you get good at it, and then maybe a stand alone 2k or 3k.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Mar 25, 2014)

rami_m said:


> Would you also use the 1000/4000?


JCK 1000/4000 was my first stone. It ended up being at my parents place so I could sharpen their knives when I come to them.
It's smaller when most other stones and thus a bit less comfortable to sharpen. An OK stone, but nothing special. Not fast, but leaves good finish


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## labor of love (Mar 25, 2014)

Its difficult for me to recommend any particular stone progression without knowing exactly what knives you own. I think stainless and carbon knives benefit from entirely different stone progressions.


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## rami_m (Mar 25, 2014)

labor of love said:


> Its difficult for me to recommend any particular stone progression without knowing exactly what knives you own. I think stainless and carbon knives benefit from entirely different stone progressions.



carbon gyuto, petty, and suji . I am not planning on going anywhere near the last one until i feel proficient. what do you think of the 400/1200, 6000 JCK stones. with the shipping it sound like a good deal


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## Mangelwurzel (Mar 25, 2014)

rami_m said:


> carbon gyuto, petty, and suji . I am not planning on going anywhere near the last one until i feel proficient. what do you think of the 400/1200, 6000 JCK stones. with the shipping it sound like a good deal



The JCK 400/1200 and 6000 are the first (and only) stones I bought. The 400 dishes very quickly, cuts quite fast, gets muddy quickly and leaves a nice hazy finish. The 1200 seems fine to me (but then, these are the only stones i have ever used so have no basis of comparison!) and is quite hard so doesn't dish that quickly. It does seem to clog up quite quickly though. The 6000 leaves a nice mirror polish, is quite hard, but the feedback doesn't seem too great. I know people always comment on how great the feedback is on the Rika 5K. 

The other thing to say about the JCK stones is that there are hardly any reviews of them anywhere. It doesn't seem that many people on here (or indeed other forums) have experience with them so you might want to opt for stones that are more tried and tested, with more user reviews. Gesshin 400, 2K, 6K is a setup that's highly recommended. As is Maxsim's 300, 800, Synthetic Red Aoto, 6K. The Bester 1200 and Rika 5K from Tools from Japan seems like a good budget option.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Mar 25, 2014)

rami_m said:


> carbon gyuto, petty, and suji . I am not planning on going anywhere near the last one until i feel proficient. what do you think of the 400/1200, 6000 JCK stones. with the shipping it sound like a good deal



Have not personal experience with 400/1200 but own 6000 for about half a year. Just yesterday spent quite a lot of time on it polishing knife after thinning. Pretty good stone for the money. Cuts relatively fast and leaves mirror finish. Doesn't clog fast (compared to Gesshin 2k) and I like the feedback despite the fact that I don't give it even a short soaking.


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## Matus (Mar 25, 2014)

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Have not personal experience with 400/1200 but own 6000 for about half a year. Just yesterday spent quite a lot of time on it polishing knife after thinning. Pretty good stone for the money. Cuts relatively fast and leaves mirror finish. Doesn't clog fast (compared to Gesshin 2k) and I like the feedback despite the fact that I don't give it even a short soaking.



A bit off-topic, but I do not find the Gesshin 2k to clog in the sense of the word that it would loose on cutting speed. The stone does get 'dirty' from the steel (unlike the 400 or 6k) what does not look nice, but keeps cutting very fast.


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## jgraeff (Mar 25, 2014)

brainsausage said:


> In terms of grit range- I don't think there's really a need to get anything past 2k, unless you're regularly sharpening a single bevel(true, with ura). Gyuto's in my opinion don't benefit from a highly polished edge, as they get heavy use(shaving sharp is fun, but highly impractical IMO). And I rarely bring any of my butchering knives past 800. It all depends on what your knife set up is, and your end use for each really. I'd focus on a solid 400, 800, and 1-2000. So, Gesshin 400, King 800, Bester 1200, and buy a newspaper once in awhile to strop with. Should be well within your budget, even with the international shipping from Jon.



Brain, interesting! I get not polishing too high grit but 2k? For German steel I agree but Japanese or custom makers steel I'm not so sure.

I routinely sharpen my gyutos to 4k synthetic and they last a long time, at least a week without stropping and heavy use. 

I think an 800 grit edge would be hard to get used to, I like the knives sharp. 2k I could live with. Any videos or an 800 grit edge on food? 

Just curious, I don't have that grit but I do have 1k which I use on my shun and it's acceptable for most uses.


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## JDA_NC (Mar 25, 2014)

Matus said:


> +1 on that. I have not had a chance to use the read aoto (this is a synthetic stone in spite of the name), but the 800 really is amazing - cuts fast and leaves very nice finish. And both are HUGE. If I were getting a 2 stone combination today (mind you I have Gesshin 400, 2000 and 6000) I would not hesitate to get the JNS 800 and Red Aoto combination.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing wrong to get a Bester and Rika, but depending on what type of person you are you may not resist the temptation to get a Gesshin or JNS few months later



I really, really love my JNS 800 and I think it's possible to leave many knives on that grit and still have a great edge. But it needs to be soaked permanently IMO and is, at least in my experience, a very 'crusty' stone so it takes awhile to break in and come into its own. To me it felt hard, super thirsty, and slow cutting when I first got it. That's even after I flattened it with a diamond plate. For those reasons, I don't know if I would recommend it to someone looking for a first stone.

I would just get a King 1000 stone. I don't know how it is in Australia, but they're generally easy to come across, inexpensive, it's soft but not too soft, muddy but not too muddy, gives good feedback and is relatively slow cutting. Most of us don't like that about it, but when you're starting off and working on your technique, I think that's a good thing. That grit is going to be more forgiving to your technique than a coarse 400 or high grit 6k stone, and that fresh off the stone edge is still going to be better than anything you've had before. It's all about trial and error thing anyways. Practice, focus on your technique, and once you feel like you're consistently getting a good clean edge with a 1k - then move on to other grits and types of stones to play with.

My two cents.


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## rami_m (Mar 25, 2014)

Worth a thought, It's just that every thing is more expensive or unavailable here :S I will look around and see what I can pull up.


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## schanop (Mar 25, 2014)

This place's price looks reasonable: http://www.timberbits.com/shop-by-brand/king-water-stone.html

And this place is not too bad either: http://www.carbatec.com.au/japanese-waterstones_c7530


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## brainsausage (Mar 25, 2014)

jgraeff said:


> Brain, interesting! I get not polishing too high grit but 2k? For German steel I agree but Japanese or custom makers steel I'm not so sure.
> 
> I routinely sharpen my gyutos to 4k synthetic and they last a long time, at least a week without stropping and heavy use.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I was referring strictly to my butchering knives regarding the low grits.


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## rami_m (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks for the help schanop, I tried your suggestion to go for a wanted post. But I don't have access yet. 

I had a look at this around 100 with shipping for the 3 stones 
http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...t_info&cPath=335_405_583_585&products_id=2055


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## panda (Mar 26, 2014)

i honestly think 5k is too high for most knives, maybe try cerax 1000 and a suehiro 3000?


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## rami_m (Mar 26, 2014)

Well I think i will go for that 1k/5k combo from tools from Japan. should at least get me started. I will get a tile/sand paper for leveling . not sure if this would be enough to practice on my current set of cheap knives that have been in the dishwasher a few times? or i should get a lower grit.


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## brainsausage (Mar 26, 2014)

Lower grit. You're gonna have a helluva time trying to raise a burr/thin a cheap stainless on a 1000 stone.


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