# European Gesshin stone(s) passaround



## Krakorak

Hi, this is a longer post, so let me divide it into manageable pieces:

*The passaround:*
We (Matus and I) would like to start a passaround with either only the Gesshin 4000 stone or a set of Gesshin 400, 2000, 4000 and 6000. We would like to keep this one Europe-only only as Jon is working on a large Gesshin stone passaround in the U.S. currently and shipping overseas wouldnt make much sense anyway in this case. No limitation regarding the number of participants, the more, the better.

*Rules:*
Only members with at least 50 posts on KKF. Lets keep it up to 2 weeks per person (you need to include at least 4 days for drying), insured shipping up to 100  in case only the 4000 stone will be decided on, or up to 300  in case of all four stones will be the choice. Please keep in mind that all 4 stones nicely packed will weight close to 5kg, while the single stone will be just under 2kg packed. Please share your experience and opinions here once you have had the chance to use the stones.

*How did this all began:*
To describe briefly the story which let us to this idea: Matus made a big order from Jon several months ago, for him and two friends including myself to save something on shipping as we both live relatively close to Matus. I ordered, among few other things, the 4000 stone and left it Matus for several weeks for some testing (not surprisingly, his impressions were highly positive). Unfortunately, he sent the stone to me being accidentally not completely dry yet (although he let it dry for 4 days which is enough normally) and it arrived quite wet, the paper box basically falling apart. And I also noticed that there is a long thin crack along the side of the top surface  nothing really bad, but anyway, quite significant. First, we had the idea to mount the stone on a base, but decided to ask Jon for his opinion first. Jon answered something like Hmmm, thats not good - thats not supposed to happen to this stone! and offered to send a new stone immediately as a replacement, although he knew the story with the imperfect dryingbut believed it would likely be an issue with the stone rather than with the way Matus shipped itAnd he even offered that we can keep the first stone!

So I ended up with two 4k stones and a strong feeling that we should reciprocate Jon for his generosity somehowand came up with the idea that we could organize a passaround with the extra stone that we haveAll the more that Jon expressed within a previous communication with me and Matus the opinion that the 4000 is an underrated stone that gets less attention (probably due to somewhat higher price) than it would deserveand that he would be happy if more people had the chance to test it to see how awesome is itSolely his words I really love it already say a lot So I believe this is a great opportunity to let his wishes come true and also the reason why I would be really happy if the people involved could write something like a short review

Matus kindly promised to mount the stone to a solid, plastic base to prevent eventual problems with the crack, but later on, he even offered to include his 400, 2000 and 6000 Gesshin stones into the passaround as well! 

*So the $1M question is:
Would you be in for just the 4000 stone passaround or for 400, 2000, 4000 and 6000 stones?*

The pros and cons are obvious: more stones = more fun and even more eventual feedback for Jon, but it also means higher shipping costsMatus found out that the shipping from Germany for an insured 5kg (it wont probably weigh less) package within EU would be about 16 Euro, but, please, consider that its really just an example and the actual shipping costs from your country might be different and possibly higher! So check this out and and see whether the shipping cost is acceptable for you.

We really hope that there will be many of you interested, lets wait for the results  if there will be a clear decision (lets say 10 people would like to try the complete set and only 1 or 2 the 4k stone only, or vice versa) we will make only one passaround, but if there will be 2 significant groups of people (lets say 5 and 5), we could even make two separate passarounds, the first one with the complete set and later on, if everything would be fine and the 4k stone would survive, the next one with this stone only! I assume that the passaround could start in about one month!

Once we collect your interest there will be a new thread (shorter, we promise) with the final rules, to collect the names for the (first) passaround.

Thanks,

Jan


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## berko

im interested, but i also do have the 2k and 4k. 6k stones generally dont give edges that im lookin for in a kitchen knife, but i guess im in just to satisfy my HAD.


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## daveb

Very nice offer. I've thought about something similar stateside.


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## Matus

I am going to be completely honest and say that me and Jan have expected a little more interest  

The Gesshin 4000 is a truly great stone and here is the chance for you to try one (or even a few others from my personal sharpening kit).

I know that most KKF memebers from not from EU, but if you are and have interrest, than do not hesitate


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## krx927

Hi, I would be interested to participate in the pass around... Of course the more stones the better...


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## Jovidah

Matus said:


> I am going to be completely honest and say that me and Jan have expected a little more interest
> 
> The Gesshin 4000 is a truly great stone and here is the chance for you to try one (or even a few others from my personal sharpening kit).
> 
> I know that most KKF memebers from not from EU, but if you are and have interrest, than do not hesitate


I think what plays a big role is the relative obscurity of this part of the forum; I only 'saw' this sub-area a few days ago... I guess it would get a lot more air-time in the general forum.

In regards to the pass-around. I'm not sure whether I should wet my appetite for expensive stuff I don't necessarily need and is rather expensive to import...  I'm trying my hardest NOT to become a collector!


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## mark76

Great initiative, guys! I'd love to participate, but I'm currently too busy at my work.


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## Matus

Yeah, I am also concerned about the lack of exposure - other threads in this subforum also get very little attention.

Let''s see how the situation develops over the weekend. Should it prove necessary I would then try to have the thread moved or link it also elsewhere on KKF.


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## Charon

hello
this is the first I'm seeing this post. I would love to get in on this passaround! 
Shipping from Romania back may be expensive so I have to check if 5kg is significantly more than 1kg. 
I have a 50% of DHL for my company, so maybe it's reasonable.


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## RDalman

I'd like to participate if you'd trust me even though I haven't posted much here (I'm on the other forum and maybe you recognize me from there?). I'd be curious on the 4k but can do with the full package as well.


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## Devon_Steven

Also just noticed this thanks to daveb's note over in The Kitchen Knife. I'm in the UK and interested in the full set or just the 4k.
Great initiative, thanks to the organisers and hope that this will go ahead.


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## Devon_Steven

Should have said, my preference is for the full set.


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## berko

y'all should start browsing the forum by using the "whats new?" feature from now on...


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## Matus

RDalman said:


> I'd like to participate if you'd trust me even though I haven't posted much here (I'm on the other forum and maybe you recognize me from there?). I'd be curious on the 4k but can do with the full package as well.



Robert - you are most welcome to join


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## Matus

daveb said:


> Very nice offer. I've thought about something similar stateside.



Dave, thank you very much for posting a thread in the main forum - that helped a lot.


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## daveb

We're here to serve Matus.....


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## shownomarci

Matus said:


> Robert - you are most welcome to join



Sorry for being a smartass, but i thought it's Robin... :scratchhead:

Anyway, the idea is really good, i am just not sharpening as much as i used to.
Although it would fill a gap in my sharpening stone gear. 
Bit puzzled now. :dontknow:


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## Krakorak

I was also a bit unhappy yesterday after two days and with almost nobody interested...So many thanks to daveb also from me, that indeed helped a lot! And it already looks much better now!


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## Krakorak

shownomarci said:


> Sorry for being a smartass, but i thought it's Robin... :scratchhead:
> 
> Anyway, the idea is really good, i am just not sharpening as much as i used to.
> Although it would fill a gap in my sharpening stone gear.
> Bit puzzled now. :dontknow:




I am sure Matus knows very well who Robin is inspite of this small error...And I really hope you will finally be in as well!


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## Krakorak

mark76 said:


> Great initiative, guys! I'd love to participate, but I'm currently too busy at my work.



Mark, I remember you already several days ago when thinking about possible, most probable candidates to join the passaround, as you are ever willing to try and test new things , but know from the other European passaround with the knife from Dan P. about the situation at work...But maybe we could put you at the very end of the passaround so that the hype at work might already be over when the stones would be ready to go to you...Count about one month for the start and then 14 days for one person - I hope it could work finally!!


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## Krakorak

Krakorak said:


> Mark, I remember you already several days ago when thinking about possible, most probable candidates to join the passaround, as you are ever willing to try and test new things , but know from the other European passaround with the knife from Dan P. about the situation at work...But maybe we could put you at the very end of the passaround so that the hype at work might already be over when the stones would be ready to go to you...Count about one month for the start and then 14 days for one person - I hope it could work finally!!



Sorry, wanted to write "remembered"...


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## Matus

I just just (11:30) came back from my tiny workshop after working for 2 hours on my first kitchen (!) knife (I have about 2 more hours of grinding ahead of me), so I am little 'high'  but I am really impressed by the reactions here.

- Robin, my apologies, I got confused somehow.

- Dave, it is my (our) pleasure to offer a little in return to this great forum and all the nice folk around here.

Preliminary impression - it seems like we will go for the full set 

One quick idea - I know there is time to iron out the details (and there will be a separate thread to collect the names and share the details), but should I also include a *flattening plate*? I am rather sure that the 400 will need flattening through out the passaround (the 2000 probably not, but if it gets a proper use than maybe as well). I have the diamond plate from Jon that I could include. Obviously - that would add to the total weight, but I just want to say that I can offer that as well.


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## Krakorak

Matus said:


> I just just (11:30) came back from my tiny workshop after working for 2 hours on my first kitchen (!) knife (I have about 2 more hours of grinding ahead of me), so I am little 'high'  but I am really impressed by the reactions here.
> 
> - Robin, my apologies, I got confused somehow.
> 
> - Dave, it is my (our) pleasure to offer a little in return to this great forum and all the nice folk around here.
> 
> Preliminary impression - it seems like we will go for the full set
> 
> One quick idea - I know there is time to iron out the details (and there will be a separate thread to collect the names and share the details), but should I also include a *flattening plate*? I am rather sure that the 400 will need flattening through out the passaround (the 2000 probably not, but if it gets a proper use than maybe as well). I have the diamond plate from Jon that I could include. Obviously - that would add to the total weight, but I just want to say that I can offer that as well.




Good point, with that diamond plate..


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## Devon_Steven

I have a diamond plate, so no need on my account.


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## RDalman

Nice 

I have a diamond plate as well so no worries there.
It should be enough if say half of participants have plates and can flatten right?


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## berko

no need for a diamond plate.


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## Matus

All right, it seems that a flattening plate will not be necessary. I will then try to get the order in such manner, that those without one will not have to worry.


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## mark76

Krakorak said:


> Mark, I remember you already several days ago when thinking about possible, most probable candidates to join the passaround, as you are ever willing to try and test new things , but know from the other European passaround with the knife from Dan P. about the situation at work...But maybe we could put you at the very end of the passaround so that the hype at work might already be over when the stones would be ready to go to you...Count about one month for the start and then 14 days for one person - I hope it could work finally!!



That's very kind of you, Jan. I indeed like to try new things and if I like it, write a review to share it with others. And if I really like it, I'm not unwilling to buy it right away . (I bought a Dalman gyuto right after his passaround.) But I'm indeed very busy at work now and have also promised two webshops (one of which is quite large in Germany as well) to do reviews of some of their knives. And I'm working with Cris on a new knife. So I guess I'll be busy until the summer. Now I don't know how long this stone passaround will last, and I'm definitely very interested, so if it lasts until the summer, I'd be more than happy to participate. But I guess that's too a bit much to ask.


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## Matus

Mark, Europe is a small place. Should you sill be interested once your schedule clears just drop me a PM and we can work something out.


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## Krakorak

Matus said:


> Mark, Europe is a small place. Should you sill be interested once your schedule clears just drop me a PM and we can work something out.



I just want to add to that very kind, indirect offer of Matus that you would still have the chance to test the complete set as the 4000 stone will remain in his possession after the passaround...But maybe it won't be necessary at all if about 2-3 other people were interested in the passaround, if I count correctly...So let's wait...


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## JBroida

i swear these guys are going to beat me to the punch on getting the passaround out... really glad some guys out there will be able to try some of these though. Thanks again for putting this together.


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## Jovidah

I'm still a bit up on the fence on wether or not to join in... but I should be last anyway: I'm close to the border so after mark76 has them I could ship them to Matus from within Germany. 
Another vote for the full set; wenn schon, denn schon...


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## mark76

Krakorak said:


> Matus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mark, Europe is a small place. Should you sill be interested once your schedule clears just drop me a PM and we can work something out.
> 
> 
> 
> I just want to add to that very kind, indirect offer of Matus that you would still have the chance to test the complete set as the 4000 stone will remain in his possession after the passaround...But maybe it won't be necessary at all if about 2-3 other people were interested in the passaround, if I count correctly...So let's wait...
Click to expand...


Thanks guys! I know to find you .


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## Krakorak

JBroida said:


> i swear these guys are going to beat me to the punch on getting the passaround out... really glad some guys out there will be able to try some of these though. Thanks again for putting this together.



Yeah, maybe, but its "slightly" easier to put together a passaround with 4 stones than with 20;-)..


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## Krakorak

Jovidah said:


> Another vote for the full set; wenn schon, denn schon...



Jawohl!


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## Matus

OK, I would say that the interest in the full set dominates. Let us prepare the stones. I will then post another thread where we collect names and we can start


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## Jovidah

Matus said:


> OK, I would say that the interest in the full set dominates. Let us prepare the stones. I will then post another thread where we collect names and we can start



Might want to promote it a bit more as well; I'm sure there are some people around here who are quite active and who would like to jump in. It is a pretty unique chance to try some different stones after all...

And who knows; maybe at some point when new trade agreements are hammered out they finally become affordable here!  God forbid, Gingas might finally become affordable again in Europe!


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## Devon_Steven

J, 

the prospect of new trade agreements brings a chill to those of us in the UK who currently enjoy paying no VAT or import tarrifs on goods purchased in the EU

:-(


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## Krakorak

There is still a little time, I will ship the 4k stone to Matus this week, so the passaround might be ready to start in about 2 weeks...But I agree, it would definitely be great if some more people would jump in, maybe we can "bump" in about one week the thread which Daveb kindly started in the main section and write there a few words in that sense that it's the last chance to join the passaround..




Jovidah said:


> Might want to promote it a bit more as well; I'm sure there are some people around here who are quite active and who would like to jump in. It is a pretty unique chance to try some different stones after all...
> 
> And who knows; maybe at some point when new trade agreements are hammered out they finally become affordable here!  God forbid, Gingas might finally become affordable again in Europe!


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## Jovidah

Devon_Steven said:


> J,
> 
> the prospect of new trade agreements brings a chill to those of us in the UK who currently enjoy paying no VAT or import tarrifs on goods purchased in the EU
> 
> :-(


Lucky bastard.  But I don't really see that changing unless you guys drop out of the EU. But I was mostly talking about free trade agreements between the EU and US/Japan. Would drop import costs a lot and likely also cut down on the shipping costs from the US, with extra traffic and all. Maybe Jon can finally become Japanese Knife Exports!


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## Devon_Steven

Jovidah said:


> Lucky bastard.



You enjoy the same arrangements in The Netherlands :O)



Jovidah said:


> But I don't really see that changing unless you guys drop out of the EU.



As I'm sure you know, there is a referendum on that very question here in June! If we leave, at a stroke, any knife that I buy from an EU retailer will increase in cost by 28.5 per cent (20 per cent VAT and 8.5 per cent import duty). That's a chilling thought.



Jovidah said:


> But I was mostly talking about free trade agreements between the EU and US/Japan.



Are there any re-negotiations in the pipeline?

Anyway, in the UK case (see figures above) the import duty for ex-EU kitchen knives is a relatively minor part of the overall cost which also includes VAT. So, even a complete scrapping of the import duty would only lower the overhead from 28.5 to 20 per cent. I imagine that the situation in NL is much the same (is it?).


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## Jovidah

Sorry I misread; yes there's no extra tarrifs on purchases within EU, but you still have to pay the original VAT (in the country of purchases). I thought you crazy limeys got yourselves some exempt status where you didn't have to pay that. 
I agree; it's great within the EU. Too bad most of the knife & related goodies aren't produced here, so almost everything is still relatively expensive. And half the times it isn't even available... 

I heard about the upcoming referendum. It sounds completely crazy, but who knows what the populists can get away with. To me it always makes more sense to have less bariers and tarrifs. Bigger internal markets are one of the reasons American and Japanese companies often have an edge. 

And yeah there are some re-negotiations in the pipeline. There have been negotiations about a (free) trade agreement between the EU and Japan for a few years already. Last I could find was that they expected it to be hammered out somewhere in this year - but I guess with recent events in regards to refugees and such it might have been taken down a notch or two on the priorities list. Either way it'd take a few years before it's ratified so I wouldn't expect it to come into place anytime soon. But it would be a big gamechanger, especially since the shipping is already cheap due to the high volume of trade from Asia to Europe. Could mean a 20-25% price drop on all the Japanese toys. Or not having to play 'dodge the customs' anymore. 

With the US it's of course TTIP, but that has become such a hot issue over the food & agriculture issues that it might be a while before that ever comes into fruition. Even then the shipping costs are still an issue and I expect it to take quite some time before volume increases to such an extent that it has an impact on pricing. But who knows... This is all marred in a lot of ifs and buts and I'd be surprised if they can ever get it through now that it has attracted so much public opposition. So in the short-medium term I'd put my money on the trade agreement with Japan.


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## Devon_Steven

Jovidah said:


> Last I could find was that they expected it to be hammered out somewhere in this year



So you prefer a hammered trade agreement to a ground one? :yammer:

---

Thanks for the details about the trade agreements. 

Speaking of ex-EU shipping costs, did you notice that Jon at JKI has found a cheaper international shipping method? I don't know how much cheaper it is, but he mentioned it while promoting his re-designed web site.


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## Jovidah

Well I noticed he is at least cheaper than for example ChessKnightsToGo and some others. But the issue isn't just the shipping (although it does make it worse). The problem is paying tax (21%) some extra tariffs (don't know for knives but it's a few %), both of those over the cost of both product and shipping, and then the handling fee of about 10-15 euros (it varies). So when all said and done that's about a 25% surcharge on the total shipped price... 
So for example a 200 dollar knife with a 30 dollar shipping charge would end up costing about 270-275 euros - around 300 dollars.

Of course there's always the option of trying to dodge them, but that's always a gamble. On top of that I fully understand it's not something serious vendors would necessarily indulge in as essentially it is still fraud and might risk their business. 
I think if Jon really wanted to get serious about selling in Europe the only feasible option would be through an intermediary and ship everything from Japan directly. That way you cut down on all the extra shipping immensely and you avoid paying tarrifs twice. But I don't see that happening; he already has enough trouble keeping product stocked as it is so it seems like his problem is supply more than demand. 

Long story short: in the end we're all screwed here until we get some free trade agreements with the US & Japan.


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## Matus

Without a hint of intention to continue the discussion on VAT & imports, I fear that the quick-wins of this planned agreement may be overshadowed by large issues that most of us (me included) have hard time understanding. I have yet to see honest and serious effort by any government on this side of the pond to allow ordinary people to get a basic understanding what that big deal actually really means, and it leaves a strange feeling in my stomach.

Back on topic - this pass-around is still 'open' and will be for about 2 more weeks, so there is time to jump on!


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## Jovidah

Matus said:


> Without a hint of intention to continue the discussion on VAT & imports, I fear that the quick-wins of this planned agreement may be overshadowed by large issues that most of us (me included) have hard time understanding. I have yet to see honest and serious effort by any government on this side of the pond to allow ordinary people to get a basic understanding what that big deal actually really means, and it leaves a strange feeling in my stomach.


Yeah sorry to hijack the thread there.  
But I see what you mean; the EU hasn't exactly done a good job on giving the citizens ownership of these deals and there certainly is a troubling influence of lobby groups and 'big money'. On the other hand I cannot help but see a lot of opposition against it being arranged with hidden agendas or for other suspicious reasons like foreign interests. These days it seems quite easy to mobilize fear and naysayers through social media even when most people don't have any clue about the actual content or the bigger picture. Not to say that there aren't very valid issues (mostly food- and agriculture-related I'd say), and the lack of transparancy by the EU certainly hasn't helped to mitigate the fears... but I do feel like "we" are about to "throw the baby out with the bathwater".


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## Matus

Well put.


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## Devon_Steven

Apologies also for going off-topic.

I'll close my part in the import-export discussion with a link to a TTIP info. resource, created by a campaign group here in the UK: https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/pages/ttip_more_information

The group also organised a petition of MEPs regarding concerns over TTIP; they got over 3 million signatures and it has now been sent to the relevant MEPs.


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## Jovidah

> ABOUT 38 DEGREES
> 38 Degrees is the angle at which an avalanche happens. In the UK, 38 Degrees will enable people to act together, to create an avalanche for change.


As a mountaineer I must say I stopped reading after that...  Avalanches do not necessarily happen at 38 degrees, they can go as low as 20. But in the right conditions, without disturbance snow can stack as steep as 51 degrees before it collapses.
Throw that in at your next cocktail party!

But actually its symthomatic of my 'problem' with the whole discussion on it: I don't want to claim that what they say is right or wrong, but the discussion is largely powered by these campaign groups and 'general interests' groups of whom it is not always clear who and whose interests they exactly represent. Admittedly this is a problematic development with 'public society' in general in the last few years. You see the same thing in the Netherlands with 'animal rights groups' that are often campaigning with ulterior motives, or for example anti-fracking groups in Eastern Europe that were supported by Russia (because it undermined dependence on Russian gas).

Fun fact: I read and post on a knife forum to avoid my studies....and then hijack threads on said forum to talk about stuff that relates to my studying. :eyebrow: Strange how that works out. I swear, university should just order me to do anything I want except studies, just so that I start doing them to procrastinate all the other stuff...


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## andur

Hey how's the passaround going? Can I be also included?


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## Krakorak

andur said:


> Hey how's the passaround going? Can I be also included?



Yes, of course, as we wrote, the more people will be in, the better! I sent the 4k stone to Matus on Friday, along with some other things he lent me for some testing (that was the reason why I sent it only on Friday), so it will certainly arrive within the next week, so I still believe the passaround should be ready to start in about 10 days...


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## andur

How do I participate?


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## Matus

andur said:


> How do I participate?



If you are interested, live in EU and are a nice guy/gal than you are most welcome to join  We will post one more thread to collect the names and lay out the rules, but I will try to make sure that those wo expressed interest here will not be left behind.

I will start the second thread once I have all the stones ready (means 400 and 4000 glued on the bases) and have a reasonable & reusable solution how to pack them safely, so that I can let you know the weight/size of the package.


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## kielasaurus

I'm interested as well, however I won't be back in EU for a a few weeks at least, so keep me in mind, but I may have to dip out of the pass around if I'm still in the US.


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## Matus

kielasaurus said:


> I'm interested as well, however I won't be back in EU for a a few weeks at least, so keep me in mind, but I may have to dip out of the pass around if I'm still in the US.



It should be no problem to put you later on the list - just let me know once you will be coming and we will get it sorted out. 

UPDATE:
The stones arrived safely from Jan. I should have them glued on bases this week and also have the packaging figured out. Once that happens a new thread will be posted. Stay tuned


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