# Current stone selection for thinning



## SeattleBen (Feb 2, 2019)

What are people's current choices and how much does it change on if it's a large project vs a regularly scheduled maintenance thing?


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## Cyrilix (Feb 2, 2019)

SeattleBen said:


> What are people's current choices and how much does it change on if it's a large project vs a regularly scheduled maintenance thing?



I prefer a stone that doesn't dish a whole lot for thinning if possible when I use it on a good knife because I want my performance to be as consistent as possible. Right now, that's the Shapton Pro 320 for me. For my cheaper knives, I start with a Naniwa Lobster 150-180.


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## JBroida (Feb 3, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> I prefer a stone that doesn't dish a whole lot for thinning if possible when I use it on a good knife because I want my performance to be as consistent as possible. Right now, that's the Shapton Pro 320 for me. For my cheaper knives, I start with a Naniwa Lobster 150-180.


i found the 320 to be far too slow for what i needed... i wish i could find the perfect stone for this, but for now, i tend to pick speed over dish resistance. I can always flatten, but i still just need to get stuff done.


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## mikaelsan (Feb 3, 2019)

SP 120, already thinking its too slow for my personal needs, saving up for a machine instead. Seems like some of the non ceramic 220's would have been a better choice for me, i did not know that when i got it. But its nice for small thinning sessions, but so is the dmt diamond coarse, and that's finer in grit


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## JBroida (Feb 3, 2019)

thats another one i never really understood... some people seem to really enjoy the SP 120... i find it to be slower than my 220. It dishes slowly though, so thats a plus.


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## Benuser (Feb 3, 2019)

I like the Shapton Glass Stone 220. Very regular grit. Even some tactile feedback.
Or automotive sandpaper on linen, P120 to start with. Hard rubber or soft wood as backing. Edge trailing only.


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## Matus (Feb 3, 2019)

I have a Bester 220 that works fairly well. I find the dishing speed acceptable.

If one wants considerably faster material removal, than I would suggest a cheap 1x30” belt grinder and a few ceramic grit 60 and 120 belts, and once the coarse work is done than switch to a coarse stone of choice.


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## Kippington (Feb 3, 2019)

Matus said:


> If one wants considerably faster material removal, than I would suggest a cheap 1x30” belt grinder and a few ceramic grit 60 and 120 belts, and once the coarse work is done than switch to a coarse stone of choice.


Freaking belt grinders man... how did I ever live without one?


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## Knife2meatu (Feb 3, 2019)

I've been using, and quite like, a Norton Crystolon JUM4.

Not perfect by any means but, in my estimation, better than the Shap Pro 120 in every way except for oil being more of a bother to wipe away to check progress.


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## SeattleBen (Feb 3, 2019)

JBroida said:


> i found the 320 to be far too slow for what i needed... i wish i could find the perfect stone for this, but for now, i tend to pick speed over dish resistance. I can always flatten, but i still just need to get stuff done.



This is exactly my stone and issue all neatly bundled in one place. I actually go back and forth between loving and hating the sp320 and don't think it's the right thing for me for thinning. (I'll be the first to admit that just because I think something doesn't mean it's true though.)

What I've been leaning towards is a 120-220 ish stone or to get a sander. I do live in an apartment though and I live in it with my wife. She's very tolerant and supportive but I'm not sure that it'll extend to a sander. Certainly not while she's home.


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## Luftmensch (Feb 3, 2019)

I gotta try one of these low grit Shaptons! Many people seem to vouch for them. I was gonna pun... should I pun? Ahhh what the hell: "apparently they have good feedback".




JBroida said:


> i tend to pick speed over dish resistance



Open question: 

How pedantic are you all about flattening? How much dish will you accept?

On my first thinning project I was overly cautious about dishing. I got frustrated by the amount of stone material I wasted by flattening. That pushed me in the direction of learning to work with the dish and try to spread the wear across the surface of the stone. Now I am happy to work on dished stone so long as the dish is mostly 'flat/level' across the short dimension of the stone face (slight convexity is fine, concavity is worth flattening).

I'd be interested to hear from the pros... could be a useful insight for the less experienced.


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

I agree thinning is a job for a belt sander. It's too frustrating using a stone. For mild thinning a Norton crystolon is where it's at. Very fast, very hard, dish resistant, and if you get the bigger ones tons of surface area to work on


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## Ruso (Feb 3, 2019)

Belt grinder sounds nice for people who live in the house and have garage/basement/backyard... Not so much for us, condo/apartment dwellers. 

I’m debating either buy Atoma 140 or SG 220. Benuser makes it sound very appealing and for the half the price.


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## Knife2meatu (Feb 3, 2019)

Ruso said:


> [...]
> I’m debating either buy Atoma 140 [...].


I hate using the Atoma for thinning -- I'm constantly torn between the urge to bear down to speed up the abrasion, and the paranoia of crushing the diamonds by pressing too hard. Definitely not a concern with the Crystolon.


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## Grunt173 (Feb 3, 2019)

Looks like I need to blow the cob webs off of my Norton Crystolon and save the 320 Shapton Pro.


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## Ruso (Feb 3, 2019)

Can crystolon be used with water? How do you fix when it gets loaded? I always have an issue with cleaning my Norton India stones.
And when its eventually gets dished, how do you flatten it?

Atoma sounds good to me coz of low to none maintenance and speed.


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

Crystolon don't load up. An India stone is very hard. Crystolon are just soft enough to release grit as you use them. With oil. If you use water they will load up and the abrasive will round over and need lapping. Also the oil/abrasive slurry from a fine or medium crystolon is a great stropping compound on leather. Only a couple strokes per side


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

For when they dish 90x sic on glass works great. Same with India stones. And Waterstones. Works for everything


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## Luftmensch (Feb 3, 2019)

SeattleBen said:


> What I've been leaning towards is a 120-220 ish stone or to get a sander. I do live in an apartment though and I live in it with my wife. She's very tolerant and supportive but I'm not sure that it'll extend to a sander. Certainly not while she's home.



One possible option is the Kasfly sandpaper thingamyjig? I tried this route for low grit work*. Kind of a stone. Kind of a 'sander'....

If you are thinking about getting something for a once off project, or _very_ occasional use, it _may_ be useful. It will never dish but in return you will have to suffer the annoyance of replacing worn sandpaper. On hard, steels this can be very quick. Fortunately there are some aggressive** low-grit, fabric backed sandpapers that are relatively hard wearing. I could find these in a grit range of 80 to 240. 

I think it is a great option if you want access to lots of grits (on the cheap) AND for very occasional use. Dollar savings are subsidised by your time. Using the sandpaper holder is slow (replacing the paper***). If you need/want to use low grit stones a lot... look elsewhere. For the hobbyist in the low grit range, I think the trade-off is ok. Once you progress out of the fabric backed abrasive grit range to paper backed abrasives, for me, stones win resoundingly. The paper backed abrasives lose their grit and blunt too fast. This is my opinion based on thinning/flattening. I have not used the holder for sharpening/polishing. I use stones in that grit range. [Meander: I suppose you could use the sandpaper holder for the scary sharp method. It is possible that subjecting the paper to a smaller surface area of hard steel will not cause a frustrating rate of paper blunting.]


* I thought i would only be hitting such low grits once. Under this assumption I thought it would be a better multipurpose tool than a single low grit stone for future projects. Problem is... you'll probably find a reason to use a low grit again. In which case maybe you should have got that stone!!
** It can be really aggressive - in the sense that these papers can leave deep scratches you will have to remove.
*** You just saved some money not buying multiple stones. Don't lose money by wasting time. Not speaking to anyone specifically, but if there are novice DIYers reading this - Dont waste your time burnishing your work with a piece of soggy paper holding only one lonely grain of silicon carbide. Sink the 50c material cost and save your time and energy... With regards to the sandpaper holder, this means you will be replacing the paper often! On paper backed abrasives this might be after only 5mins of use.


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## JBroida (Feb 3, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> I gotta try one of these low grit Shaptons! Many people seem to vouch for them. I was gonna pun... should I pun? Ahhh what the hell: "apparently they have good feedback".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’m not that uptight


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## JBroida (Feb 3, 2019)

vicv said:


> I agree thinning is a job for a belt sander. It's too frustrating using a stone. For mild thinning a Norton crystolon is where it's at. Very fast, very hard, dish resistant, and if you get the bigger ones tons of surface area to work on



While I get this, I’m always reluctant to recommend this because of the potential for stupid damage


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

I practiced on less desirable knives first. Yes they can remove steel inna hurry if you're not careful. My feeling is it's actually easier to hold a proper angle than on stones. On stones not only do you need to hold at a proper angle but also move back and forth. That can introduce wobble. With a belt grinder the abrasive is doing the moving and you only need to hold your arm steady and do one lateral movement. My biggest improvement I did was add a foot pedal switch. That way I can lay my knife at the correct angle on the belt then turn on being careful of it grabbing. That was I don't have to worry about the approach


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## Luftmensch (Feb 3, 2019)

JBroida said:


> I’m not that uptight



Ha! Made me laugh. I bet not! 



vicv said:


> On stones not only do you need to hold at a proper angle but also move back and forth. That can introduce wobble.



Hamaguri


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

True. I'm talking about normal thinning. I like like hamburgers thicker anyway


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

Not to mention a convex grind is very easy on belt grinder. Go on the slack portion


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## Chefgibson (Feb 3, 2019)

I've been using SG500 and JNS 300. It takes some time for heavy work. Will probably invest in a 120 eventually


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## galvaude (Feb 3, 2019)

Imanishi 220 and follow with King 300 to even out the grind and the scratch pattern.

Sometimes I play with a coarse Norton economy with water it is quite fast.


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

King 300 is an awesome stone. My favorite coarse stone and it's one part of my two stone setup. I find that it's so hard that it's hard to get a nice even finish on a wide bevel. I've found that with a Naniwa nagura rubbed on it to produce some mud( the king is so hard it abrades the conditioning stone!) Really ups the feel and helps get in the high spots and gives a more even finish without slowing the stone down. The one thing I'd change with it? At 34mm thick 6 generations could use it. I'd prefer it to be a little thinner so it can have more width. Most quality water stones are 75mm wide whereas the king's are only 66mm. Would prefer the extra area of 75mm width. They did it with the hyper and even though the 300 is a deluxe line it's really more in line with ceramics like the hyper


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## JBroida (Feb 3, 2019)

vicv said:


> King 300 is an awesome stone. My favorite coarse stone and it's one part of my two stone setup. I find that it's so hard that it's hard to get a nice even finish on a wide bevel. I've found that with a Naniwa nagura rubbed on it to produce some mud( the king is so hard it abrades the conditioning stone!) Really ups the feel and helps get in the high spots and gives a more even finish without slowing the stone down. The one thing I'd change with it? At 34mm thick 6 generations could use it. I'd prefer it to be a little thinner so it can have more width. Most quality water stones are 75mm wide whereas the king's are only 66mm. Would prefer the extra area of 75mm width. They did it with the hyper and even though the 300 is a deluxe line it's really more in line with ceramics like the hyper



I wish stones like this lasted that long... i can blast through one in well under a year


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

I know you sharpen a lot but a king 300 doesn't wear at all really so I'm impressed you can do that! They wear like an India fine


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## JBroida (Feb 3, 2019)

vicv said:


> I know you sharpen a lot but a king 300 doesn't wear at all really so I'm impressed you can do that! They wear like an India fine


fastest i went through one was about 7 months a while back... dont really use them so much, but i often still have one around


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

That's a lot of sharpening. I stand corrected. Surprised with all the stones you have at your disposal you even use this stone. It actually looks a lot like your 320 s&g in the pictures


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## JBroida (Feb 3, 2019)

vicv said:


> That's a lot of sharpening. I stand corrected. Surprised with all the stones you have at your disposal you even use this stone. It actually looks a lot like your 320 s&g in the pictures


sometimes i like to play with other stones on the market to re-evaluate my opinions of them and whatever my current stones/setup happens to be. Opinions change overtime and i dont think its helpful for me to be hard headed about it. I'm pretty much always testing different stones (but i've got a clear setup i prefer and have for the last few years).

Also, the stone is VERY different from the no-soak one we've got. They feel nothing alike, nor do they work similarly.


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

Not to the same extent but I'm the same. Thank you

I wasn't suggesting it was a rebranded stone. Just mentioning they look similar. If it weren't for shipping and exchange rate I'd love to try it


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## labor of love (Feb 3, 2019)

This is my fave sub 300 grit stone so far https://www.fine-tools.com/sigma.html (240)
I find that during use to just keep feeding it water and it builds up slurry and it doesn’t dry out too quick. I like the cutting speed to relative low maintenance.
I follow this with cerax 320(which I favor over king 300)
Then gesh 400 or chosera 400.


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## vicv (Feb 3, 2019)

I can see that stone being good for flattening except it dishes so fast! And I do not like it setting edges. Cerax 320 is definitely something I want to try. Chosera is too slow for me. Feels nice though. Never used the gesshin but I've heard good things. Now the select 2 3k stone is wonderful in that line. My favorite finisher and I go right to it from the king 300 and I'm done


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## Luftmensch (Feb 3, 2019)

vicv said:


> Chosera is too slow for me. Feels nice though



All my synthetic are Chosera so I can't really compare.... They do the job - the 400 chosera feels nice and leaves a good finish. What I will say... is it does dish fast!


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## mikaelsan (Feb 3, 2019)

It also really depends what your thinning. My guess is that the average user thins/maintains thinness on knives that were usually very thin to begin with and are either stainless or carbon clad. A good wear resistant stone in the sub 400s should be fine for this.
With Mono steels and non wide bevels belt grinders are really nice. If you got courage getting into an adequate grinder with a 60 grit belt is cheaper then you think, problem is it's way too high speed, you can very easily blow out parts of the temper by the edge of the blade.
I wouldn't take any blade to the grinder, and would honestly prefer another approach all together. 
Horizontal grinders with water stones is where I imagine it's at really, I need one of those in my life.
That would mean no more 6 hours thinning projects, and no fear of blowing the temper and causing over grinds

I'm really surprised people think the Norton is fast, do we have the same stone? Norton India coarse? Also thinning on oil :/


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## labor of love (Feb 4, 2019)

If I was maintaining a well ground knife with every sharpening or every other sharpening or something like that I’d just go with a chosera 400 or something like that. I’m curious what people that do this actually use.


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## JBroida (Feb 4, 2019)

horizontal wheels can cause overgrinds, heat things up, and cause all kinds of issues for what its worth


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## mikaelsan (Feb 4, 2019)

I'm guessing when you put it like that you only use your grinder for beefy part of the thinning and leave some steel behind the edge for the whet stones on costumers knives. Friction is friction I guess, what I'm looking at is not quite that beefy so hopefully it will be more manageable then the cheap belt grinder especially when things starts getting real thin. But sometimes I do dream of having a grinder like the one at your work sitting out in the shed


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## Michi (Feb 4, 2019)

There are the Tormek machines. I've never seen one in the flesh, but they look like decent pieces of equipment. Not cheap either. For someone who sharpens professionally, one of these might be a good idea?


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## Knife2meatu (Feb 4, 2019)

mikaelsan said:


> [...]
> 
> I'm really surprised people think the Norton is fast, do we have the same stone? Norton India coarse? Also thinning on oil :/


Not the AlOx India, but rather the SiC Crystolon.


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## Matus (Feb 4, 2019)

vicv said:


> I agree thinning is a job for a belt sander. It's too frustrating using a stone. For mild thinning a Norton crystolon is where it's at. Very fast, very hard, dish resistant, and if you get the bigger ones tons of surface area to work on



I hear you. Even a small belt sander does create steel dust that spreads around, so it is not something you would put on a dining table once the dinner is over. Or you do - but if you are married, than after 10 minutes knives thick behind your edge will not rank particularly high on a list of your problems  But I know a guy (with a girlfriend!) who was grinding knvies on 2x72" in a toilet - meaning he had to clean the room completely after each grinding session. Now that is what I call a dedication ... and proof that love is blind 

Anyhow - Jon is absolutely correct. If one never used a belt sender or grinding, than trying to thin a knife with one is with probability approaching certainty going to at leas badly scratch the knife if not badly damage it (overgrind, burned edge, you name it). But should you have the option to use one and plan to do knife maintenance regularly (maybe as a side income or such), than it would save you huge amount of time. A job that will take several hours on coarse stone will take 10 minutes on a belt sander. 

I have also used Atoma 140 attached to home made filing jig (that I built for knifemaking before I got a belt sander and later belt grinder and then another belt grinder ... long story) to think a wide bevel knife (a Takeda Santoku). It still took about 2-3 hours of work.


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## Stonetherapy (Feb 4, 2019)

labor of love said:


> This is my fave sub 300 grit stone so far https://www.fine-tools.com/sigma.html (240)
> I find that during use to just keep feeding it water and it builds up slurry and it doesn’t dry out too quick. I like the cutting speed to relative low maintenance.
> I follow this with cerax 320(which I favor over king 300)
> Then gesh 400 or chosera 400.



+1 The Sigma cuts as quick as it dishes, not a bad return for effort in my experience!


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## vicv (Feb 4, 2019)

For the Norton oil stones the India fine is a great stone and leaves a respectable edge. But the coarse slows down quickly. India stones do not abrade away so the need regular lapping to keep them aggressive. Crystolon stones are more like water stones in that they wear as you use them and expose fresh abrasive. They're still very hard and dish slowly but they do wear which is why they're so fast. Also being sic they'll abrade any steel including things like 10v. Just as well as diamond but no deep scratches like a course plate. And you can bear down on them unlike plates. 
Thinning on oil isn't too bad. You don't need a lot. Once in a while dab the surface with paper towel to remove swarf, add a bit more oil, and keep going. No Messier than water and with a light mineral oil from the drug store and it's food safe
On the belt grinder ruinng the temper isn't as big of a problem as most people think. When the knife gets warm dip it in water and continue. My belt grinder and paper wheel edges last just as long as stoned edges and that's sharpening a much thinner area making more localized heat. On thinning it's no problem as long as you pay attention


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## mikaelsan (Feb 4, 2019)

With a decently suited belt grinder and a seasoned user it shouldn't. I thinned a few knives I wasn't too afraid of screwing up after finishing a knife I recently made. I had a bucket of very cold water to dunk the blade in every other pass, and every pass near the end. I even checked the temperature of the apex on my skin regularly. But I still got small spots of discoloration from heat build up when I got close to hitting zero, likely had something to do with lack of muscle memory. Not that I'm too worried about blowing the temper on a soft euro stainless, not sure how high a temperature they are tempred at but I suspect it's significantly higher then a hard carbon

That Norton stone does sound interesting, sound like I got the wrong Norton, but then again it was only like 12-16 euro, I did find out to be very slippery to thin on with oil though, uncomfortable for me personally


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## vicv (Feb 4, 2019)

I found that did happen to me quite a while ago in those small spots like you mentioned. And as you said it's mostly about our not having a steady hand. You're wobble a little bit go way too thin and hit the actual Edge right on the belt with too much pressure and that will cause it. And the finer the Belt you use the more heat it will produce. Also when I'm sitting on a belt grinder I never bring it all the way down to zero. I go until the actual Edge bevel almost completely disappears and then I finish on my stones.
If your India stone is too slippery then it needs to be refreshed. Your abrasive has been rounded off and it is probably glazed. I wouldn't say you got the wrong Norton as the India is a good Stone. but the crystolon is much better for heavy grinding work. The India will produce a finer finish. My favorite Norton stone is the IC 11. It's a medium crystolon/fine India. But I have the Norton three-stone turntable system. They are quite expensive but awesome


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## Brandon Wicks (Feb 5, 2019)

For thinning I either go with

DMT xc
220 pink brick
Bester 400
Amakasa 600
Bester 1200
Aoto 2500ish
Naniwa SS 5000

or

DMT xc
120 Shapton Pro
Maybe King 300
800 Chosera
Aoto 2500ish
Aiiwatani


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## K813zra (Feb 5, 2019)

It depends on what kind of thinning. I don't really do any heavy thinning after a few projects I decide that was more of a chore than fun...

Imanishi 220 (I loved this stone when I first got it but that is starting to wear off...Just like the stone...heh.)
Shapton pro 220 (This one just works.)
Cerax 320 (Not too fast nor too slow and feels okay in use.)
Latte 400 (Rare for me to thin with this. More like a maintenance stone. I use it as a 1k replacement more often than not.)
Crystolon (Cheap, easy to find and work well enough.)

Though I must say that I got to borrow a Debado 320 and I really liked it. Not fast enough to do more than light thinning, for me, but it is quick and feels good for its grit rating. Fairly expensive line of stones for what they are though.

Anything that requires power gets sent off to someone such as Jon. I don't play with power tools. I am a super clumsy person and I am lucky to have all of my fingers as it is.


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## mikaelsan (Feb 5, 2019)

Brandon Wicks said:


> For thinning I either go with
> 
> DMT xc
> 220 pink brick
> ...



How do you like the dmt for heavy lifting compared to the pink brick and shapton pro?


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## SeattleBen (Feb 5, 2019)

Brandon Wicks said:


> For thinning I either go with
> 
> DMT xc
> 220 pink brick
> ...



Is it steel type or something else that informs this selection for you?


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## foody518 (Feb 6, 2019)

I recall the King 300 and Chosera 400 trying my patience too much to want to use in following up a 120 grit stone. I want to like the stones that hold their shape well, but at some point speed/cutting power is a tradeoff that I'll take.


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## galvaude (Feb 7, 2019)

I view the King 300 as more of a sharpening stone than a thinning stone as it is very hard and relatively dish resistant for its grit rating. Chosera 400 IMO is stricly a sharpening stone way too slow.

I agree with foody for thinning I prefer fast dishing stones over others if they provide good grinding speed. With these fast wearing stone pressure is very important. I use light to moderate pressure, otherwise the wear is excessive. 

Next on my list of stones I want to try is the 200 grit silicon carbide green brick from King, Lee Valley carries it. I will get one at the next free shipping over 40$ promotion.


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## vicv (Feb 7, 2019)

As a warning that king stone melts fast! Even faster than naniwa SS220. Muck quicker though. Honestly for the price buy a Norton Crystolon. It's faster than just about anything and slow to wear.


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## galvaude (Feb 7, 2019)

Good to know.

The larger size Crystolon stones are suprisingly hard to find in Canada, the one I have is from the economy line very similar to a Crystolon. I love it but its 6x2 in. size is akward.


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## vicv (Feb 7, 2019)

The economy is ok (they're both sic stones) but big difference in quality. They have an 8x2 Crystolon for about $50 on amazon. I bought my 11.5x3x1 for around $60USD from TruGrit when I ordered some belts. I also have a Norton IM313 which is awesome. Very expensive but I bought mine for $10 at a yard sale! Almost $300 retail


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## Ruso (Feb 7, 2019)

Are this the same guys that make Antivirus?


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## vicv (Feb 7, 2019)

...... I do not believe so no.


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## Benuser (Feb 7, 2019)

This Norton is part of the Saint-Gobain Group.


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## Brandon Wicks (Feb 11, 2019)

SeattleBen said:


> Is it steel type or something else that informs this selection for you?



No it's my home vs work set up


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## Brandon Wicks (Feb 11, 2019)

mikaelsan said:


> How do you like the dmt for heavy lifting compared to the pink brick and shapton pro?



It depends on the job. If it's pure stock removal then the DMT is the go to. It's well broken in and over 10 years old. The finish is ragged but not as bad as new DMT. I've re-profiled, repaired chips and tips, and thinned plenty a blade with it. 

If I don't need to do a crazy amount of thinning then the pink brick is perfect. It cuts super fast and is good at removing the scratches from the DMT. Yes it dishes fast but the cutting speed makes up for it. 

The Pro I use mostly for quickly re-establishing the edge and/or refining the edge after the DMT before I go to the Chosera 800. The finish from the 120 pro is pretty impressive, very brilliant. It cuts deceptively faster than it feels. It's super hard but I found if I lap it with my DMT first to build slurry then the feel is much better and the cutting speed is faster. I used it to flatten out the blade road of my yanagi and mioroshi deba. Just to test it out my boss actually sharpened his yanagi on it and used the edge from it all night long during service. He said it did surprisingly well but was missing the refinement for delicate sashimi.


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## inferno (Feb 14, 2019)

SeattleBen said:


> What are people's current choices and how much does it change on if it's a large project vs a regularly scheduled maintenance thing?



I have thinned and flattened about 10-12 blades so far. Both japanese high quality ones and cheapish monosteel. SS clad, iron clad etc. 

I started out with the shapton pro 1k and its quite fast for being a 1k. its most likely the fastest 1k. Not fast enough though. Slowish dishing considering how much material it removes.

Then I went glass 500 double thick. MUCH much faster action here. This is fast enough if you only intend to do maybe a few knives every so often. Maybe 1 each year or so. 

Then I tried the dmt coarse that I already had. Its quite fast but I feel you are ruining it quite fast when thinning. I pretty much used it for stones only and then removing chips and heavy duty edge work. Which it does very good.

Then i tried the Atoma 400. Its faster than the dmt coarse. But you will "ruin" it quite fast too when doing thinning/side-flattening work. It basically loses bite. It will still work though. 

Out of these I'd say the glass 500 is the best stone for flattening/thinning. Its faster than one might think. And I have a mental block for abusing diamonds. I simply dont like wearing them out.

--------------------

Then I stepped up the game.

Glass 220, ultra fast stone. dishes a lot more than the 500 obviously, but its so much faster. Not a very economical choice though since you only get 7mm of stone. I think you could get 5-8 or so good thinnings out of one. 

Shapton pro 220. its a bit slower than the glass, and dishes a bit faster. but you get 15mm of stone and its cheaper to begin with. I have 2 glued together! So I can use up all that 15mm. Best choice for no# thinnings per dollar imo. 

I also got the mother of all diamonds, the dmt diaflat 160, with hardcoat technology surface, xl size one. It lost some bite initially but after some heavy duty jobs at max pressure and stone flattenings it has not lost much aggressiveness. 
I think the hardcoat works as advertised. This is the best coating of diamonds I have tried. 

I actually flattened 4 aluminum oxide ceramic stones without binders, the missarka stones, and these were quite warped. These are similar to spyderco stones but less dense. 1 spyderco will kill about 2 regular dmts supposedly. 

No problems with the diaflat though. 

All these 3 stones are top notch alternatives for flattening and thinning. If you thin on the dmt you will need to follow up with a regular coarse stone since it plows so deep scratches in the steel you would not believe! 

Fastest stone is the glass 220. most economical is the pro220. diamonds is diamonds. 
Only doing a few? Get the glass. Doing many? Get the pro. Want to also flatten stones? Get the diaflat. 
The diaflat is like 200€ though. And you could get 1 atoma 140, 1 shap pro 1k, and 1 glass 3k or 4k for that money though. I would get 3 stones instead of 1 if i was starting out. No kidding.

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I read a lot about the 120 and 320 shap pros. and from my research almost everybody that used the 120 says it wears too fast. Even though all stones in this class wears fast. The 320 is for carbon only and will clog very fast on ss cladding. so is the shap pro 1500. those are the only carbon specific shap pros afaik. And many people report these 2 stones losing bite very fast on SS and hss/ high alloy tool steel. And need to be refreshed with a diamond plate very often.


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## Michi (Feb 14, 2019)

I've tried sharpening with an Atoma 400, and quickly gave it a miss. It works, of course, but I absolutely hate the way it feels, with the knife just skidding across the surface with absolutely no feedback. I much prefer the Cerax 320. Decent feedback and much easier to use (though you have to put up with the wear).


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## inferno (Feb 14, 2019)

All diamonds feel that way. unfortunately. They are usually very fast working though so thats why they are accepted.


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## never mind (Feb 16, 2019)

inferno said:


> read...almost everybody...used the 120 says it wears too fast



Shapton Pro 120, with less pressure:


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## Knife2meatu (Feb 16, 2019)

never mind said:


> Shapton Pro 120, with less pressure:
> [...]


This is actually the video which got me interested in the Ha No Kuromaku 120. In my experience, even using it only with very low pressures (wide contact area, low force) it still dishes significantly faster than the coarse, #120-side, of a combination Crystolon. 

That being said, supposing both the Crystolon and the Shap Pro were identically sized for the same amount of money, I could see myself choosing the waterstone in some situations -- they aren't _that_ far separated. The issue is that I've found that the Crystolon can regularly be found for roughly half the cost per amount of stone than the Shapton, which really is quite a big difference in value.


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## galvaude (Feb 16, 2019)

In the US you can get a coarse Crystolon in 8x3x1/2 size for $20, ridiculous value. I still haven’t found any here in Canada at a decent price.


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## vicv (Feb 16, 2019)

We always get ripped off here. That being said that stone can be found for ~$65. Huge markup but around the same price as a glass stone. It's over twice as thick. And faster. And will cut any steel. Even 10v at 64 HRC. So still a good buy. These aren't your cheap hardware oil stones. They're just as high quality as water stones


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