# Starting freehand ?



## liren1 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hi All
So after using Edge Pro for a while I'm thinking it's time to get into free hand. I've been doing free hand stropping with reasonable success so I may be ready for this.
I don't have a cheap carbon knife for experimentation, I have a Tojiro Senkou (a.k.a. Flash) bought on a whim as the first Japanese knife that I hardly use now, I can make that one my guinea pig.
So the question that's been asked a thousand times already, which stones to get ?
I'm not on a 'budget' as such, so I can get anything within reason (synthetic, not going to spend $800 on a natural stone) , and so I can start with good stones that will last a long time instead of getting cheap ones and then buying again.
So I'm guessing I need 3 or 4 ? One low grit (300-500?) one 1000, one 2000-3000 and one higher, or I can settle for 3 stones ?
So here are some of my requirements
I live in the UK, so buying in the US is probably out - the sources I know of are Eden Webshop (Naniwa), there is a shop I found here that sells Ohishi (chopping block co), or I can take one of JNS's offerings. I assume there are others.
Also - I would like stones that don't require hours of soaking, if there are splash and go then great, if not, then maybe 15-30 minutes. I read somewhere that Beston 500 requires a day or so (is that true?), so maybe not suitable ?
I watched some of the sharpening videos, and will watch them again before I start, any further advice is welcome.
So what to get ?
Thanks for any suggestion !


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## Timthebeaver (Aug 30, 2014)

Eden 240/800 and 2000/5000 combos are inexpensive and will serve you well. Or push the boat out and get the Naniwa 800/5000. Technique is far more important than tools.


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## psfred (Aug 30, 2014)

Being in Europe does change the picture a bit, but I'm sure you can get the "standard" recommended set easily enough if you look around, the stones are all Japanese for the most part.

The usual recommendation is a coarse, medium, and fine stone, and several vendors here in the US sell a Beston 500, an Imanishi Bester 1000 or 1200 stone, and a Suehiro 5000 grit as a starter set, usually with a stone holder and a couple other bits. That is a very nice set of stones, although I personally use a King Deluxe 300 and a Bester 700 instead of the Beston 500. Six of one and half a dozen of the other, it really doesn't matter, but I don't like jumping from the 300 to the 1200, takes too long and I prefer to draw the initial burr on the 700 rather than the 300 when doing major work -- just sharpening I start on the 1200.

This set should be in the 150 Euro range, maybe higher if there are taxes we don't pay here, but hardly a fortune, and should get most knives up to speed. 

Bester stones take a few minutes to soak up from bone dry, not more than 20 or so, and it takes weeks for them to dry completely. I keep mine in a pan of water most of the time. Naniwa Chosera or SuperStones can usually be used as splash and go stones if you prefer that, and the Suehiro Rika 5000 is a splash and go.

For a practice knife, check out flea markets and used items stores, there will be a sea of discarded and junk cutlery in there, and if you fish around a bit you can surely find a decent quality carbon steel knife of a decent grade "german" chef's knife. Good carbon steel will be purplish black or dark brown, light, and quite stiff, and good knives are typically fairly thin (after all, hard, stiff, springy steel allows a thinner but stronger blade). Brass riveted hardwood handles are a good sign. Henkels, Wustof, and Victorinox are names to look for. 

Or you can just go to a restuarant supply house, I'm sure there are some around, and get a Victorinox Fibrox knife. These are sold here for large kitchen use, and while they are hardly exotic super quality knives, they are dirt cheap for what you get and make excellent practice knives. High quality but not super hard steel, decent handles, nice design, and cheap enough to not worry about learning on. Sharpen quickly, so you can play around with bevel angles and so forth without spending an eternity, and if you do bugger it up beyond easy repair, you are only out a couple pints of beer.

Peter


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## Matus (Aug 30, 2014)

I would say 3 stones should give you all you need. Grits something like 300-5000, 1000-2000, 5000-6000. 

If you have the budget I would say - get something from JKI or JNS I had a few stones from both and they are simply excellent. I would find it hard to pick one over the other and find it save to say making the choice based on your locations (shipping stones can be expensive or sometimes import taxes get in the way) or particular stone preferences. 

For example - my stone setup is JKI Gesshin 400, 2000 and 6000. But I also have JNS 300 and have briefly used JNS 800 and 6000. All very nice stones. If you decide to go with JNS than it would make sense to ask Maksim for an advice, but something like 300, 1000 and 6000 would work like a charm, as well as just 800 and the red synthetic Aoto. Yes - I actually believe that those two stones would be all one needs unless you want to make some heavy re-profileing.

What I would like to point out is choosing between splash&go and soaking stones. It is not the soaking time that may get in the way (I do not think that any stone really needs more than 30 minutes), but also the drying time. I have done some tests of my own. A S&G stone will dry within 24 hours. Soaking stone will need 4-5 days under the same conditions. 

Cheap carbon knife would be best for learning as cheap stainless (I do not imply here that you Tojiro is one) is much tougher to learn on, as softer stainless gives poor feedback and is sometimes really hard to deburr. If you do want to get a cheap carbon knife, than just look at Buho (Takeo Murata) from https://cuttingedgeknives.co.uk or just post a WTB thread in classifieds.


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## Benuser (Aug 30, 2014)

You may go for the Choseras 800 and 3k (their actual grit is a tad finer). If you have soft stainless add a 400 to spare your 800 a bit.
Have them with their base.

http://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/searchresults.htm?query=Chosera

After that I could only imagine some improvement with the Naniwa Snow-White 8k. Skip the Chosera 5k.


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## liren1 (Aug 30, 2014)

Wow thanks, a lot of advice coming very quickly!
Yeah, I know technique is most important, and it will probably take me a while, I'm basically a home cook, so my knives get to be used only so much.
To make things easier, I will probably contact Maksim and see what he can offer, I'd rather not buy from the US at the moment, I'll wait until I visit there, hopefully next year some time.
So I understand 3 is what I should be looking for.
The Tojiro was not cheap, in fact too expensive for what it is , especially here in the UK, but that's spilled milk, and no use kicking my self over this. I suppose I can find a cheap carbon knife somewhere or buy the Murata.
I actually have a CCK 1303 cleaver, would that be a good knife to practice on ?


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## Benuser (Aug 30, 2014)

Get a basic carbon knife. A simple Robert Herder (again, with knivesandtools.co.uk), a French carbon (with theinvisibleedge.co.uk), or an Opinel "au carbone".
Starting freehanding with a Tojiro VG-10 is asking for troubles and frustration because you'll have to go thru a whole progression to get rid of the burr, and every extra stone will cause all kind of complications. 
As with a carbon steel, you may get a good edge with one stone only, and so you may concentrate your attention on the basics: raising the burr, chasing it and getting rid of it.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 30, 2014)

If you are going to buy from Maksim, get a 1000 Matukusuyama (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/jns-1000-matukusuyama/), and pick up an inexpensive Itinomonn 210 wa-sujihiki (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kurouchi-210mm-wa-sujihiki/) to practice on. The Itinomonn sharpens very easily, and will give you the confidence you need. It's a pretty nice knife, as well.

Rick


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## droshi (Aug 30, 2014)

A very cheap stainless knife (or carbon if you have any carbon knives) would be good investments. The stones IMO are less important when beginning as far worrying about ruining what you have. Generally they can be lapped easily, whereas an expensive knife could be difficult to fix if you mess it up.

Just get cheap knives of the same style you want to learn to sharpen (a $50 single bevel yanagiba can be had to practice on if you want to get into yanagi's).


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## liren1 (Aug 30, 2014)

Don't think I will start with yanagis just now.
I'll watch the various sharpening videos again after I get the stones, I just hope I don't develop bad habits. Wish I could go to one of those sharpening lessons offered by people here.


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## droshi (Aug 30, 2014)

Youtube works pretty well for me, but generally it's all about the feeling with freehand stones, which you just can't get without experience.

A Sharpie works wonders by painting the edge and seeing if your angle is correct. Slow work, but a good learning aide. It's usually recommended for sharpening straight razors, but I use it on a new knife from time to time to see how the edge hits my stones.


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## kevpenbanc (Aug 30, 2014)

liren1 said:


> Don't think I will start with yanagis just now.
> I'll watch the various sharpening videos again after I get the stones, I just hope I don't develop bad habits. Wish I could go to one of those sharpening lessons offered by people here.



As Droshi says, it's all about experience. 

As someone who only started freehand sharpening about 9 months ago, the lessons I learnt are:

1. Frequency is key to building up muscle memory and achieving a basic consistency. One of my mistakes was to only sharpen every month or so. Sometime around easter I sharpened 3 weekends in a row, that's when I got my 'eureka' moment. 

2. Learn to identify the burr. This really is key. The burr tells you which part of the edge has been sharpened. Gaps in the burr tells you which parts of the knife you have NOT sharpened. 

3. Don't go too acute with the angle. I was so worked up over what angle that I ended up thinning one of my knives, and getting frustrated that there was no burr !!!!!

I also found that splash and go stones are more conducive to sharpening as I didn't have to faff around soaking stones. 

As stated previously, use an old cheap knife, or buy a cheap one to practice on to build up your confidence and consistency. 

In 6 months time you'll be wondering what all the fuss is about.

Good luck, and have fun.


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## osakajoe (Aug 30, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> Eden 240/800 and 2000/5000 combos are inexpensive and will serve you well. Or push the boat out and get the Naniwa 800/5000. Technique is far more important than tools.



Far more better than tools??? Don't listen to that guy. Tools are very important


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## droshi (Aug 31, 2014)

osakajoe said:


> Far more better than tools??? Don't listen to that guy. Tools are very important



I'm guessing maybe he meant that some people will tend to go out and spend a couple grand on a set of natural stones before they even learn to use a synthetic. Personally I'd rather learn with a cheap knife and a relatively inexpensive stone. Although I'd agree you can push your budget on the stone and likely not mess it up unless you drop it. Even then some of the synthetics can be OK dropped, but most stones would probably be damaged. Short of that, major damage due to improper technique isn't that likely. Even on a Naniwa SS stone that's like rubber, too high an angle you can fix pretty quickly. It could even be argued as a decent training aide.


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2014)

As the OP is new to handsharpening it's important to acquire precise movements and correct errors immediately as they occur. That's why I suggested both basic carbons and Chosera stones. Basic carbons have a low abrasion resistance, Choseras are very fast cutters and provide a good feedback. Once the technique acquired one may use about any abrasive.


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## osakajoe (Aug 31, 2014)

Why do tools matter? Well everyone in this forum knows tools matter or else they wouldn't be recommending good knives. Stones and knives are tools. 

When it comes to sharpening buying a cheap stone is like buying a cheap bike instead of a bike with gears and what not. Both will get you from point a to b, but one will get you there much easier and faster. 

Let's take ceramic whetstones for example. There are lots of different brands and types out there. Cheap to more expensive. Buy a cheap stone and you will be spending lots of time sharpening. They tend not to cut well and you end up forming bad habits because you start to apply way to much pressure ruining your nice even blade and wearing out your stone. 

Buy a good ceramic stone and you can concentrate on technique because the stone is cutting and doing its job allowing you to focus on sharpening techniques. 

A good stone cuts your time spent sharpening by a lot and allows you to put a proper edge on your knife while strengthening your sharpening techniques. 

Most people only buy one stone, or one brand, and then go and recommend that stone to others. When they have never tried various types of stones and can't even tell the difference from a cheap stone and a gods stone. 

I have about 30-40 different stones at my disposal and can tell you that tools do matter. May it be what knife, stone, scissors, computers, machinery, etc. you are using.


With that being said, if yore looking for decent splash and go stones. I recommend the naniwa super stones for a medium and high grit stone. They are resin bonded so soft but splash and go. The do a good job when sharpening your carbon steel as well as AUS8,10 and vg10 steel. I don't recommend a lower grit super stone since they are too soft and don't perform well for that job. 

So something like this

Naniwa super stones #1000 and #5000. With a low 400 grit stone


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2014)

Just to add that in Europe the fullsized Chosera 800 and 3k together now cost 100, shipping and taxes included.


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## liren1 (Aug 31, 2014)

I think the learning curve will be in developing muscle memory. After using Edge Pro for a while I think (hope?) that I've at least learned to identify a burr when I get one, although I'm still not sure when I use a higher grit stone - like 4k (I have the Shapton Glass).
As for which stones to get - as a general philosophy in life I agree with Osakajoe - and I can quote my grandfather who once told me : 'I'm not rich enough to buy cheap stuff'. I usually prefer high quality that I can afford (within reason and intended use), and buy it once, and that's true for anything - from hiking equipment to television sets.
So I will contact Maksim for his stuff, or get the Chosera from Eden Webshop, or get one (or two) from each, for the variety...

About finding the correct angle - it took me a little while - but I learned how to do that when stropping by changing the angle slightly until I feel it start to push into the strop - is the technique similar ?


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## Timthebeaver (Aug 31, 2014)

I have both the Eden stones and the Naniwa SS I mentioned. Both are perfectly adequate tools for sharpening kitchen knives for their intended purpose. The Naniwa is better though, no argument there.


I think it was Murray Carter in one of his DVDs sho said that it was "99% technique and 1% tools". But what would he know about Japanese knives eh?


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> I have both the Eden stones and the Naniwa SS I mentioned. Both are perfectly adequate tools for sharpening kitchen knives for their intended purpose. The Naniwa is better though, no argument there.
> 
> 
> I think it was Murray Carter in one of his DVDs sho said that it was "99% technique and 1% tools". But what would he know about Japanese knives eh?


Murray Carter isn't a novice.


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## daddy yo yo (Aug 31, 2014)

Who's Murray Carter?


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## Timthebeaver (Aug 31, 2014)

Benuser said:


> Murray Carter isn't a novice.



What is your point?


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2014)

liren1 said:


> About finding the correct angle - it took me a little while - but I learned how to do that when stropping by changing the angle slightly until I feel it start to push into the strop - is the technique similar ?


Some people can feel the right angle. Great, but what about microbevels, burrs and damages? It's safer to use the marker trick (see Jon Broida's videos). You don't sharpen an edge, you're sharpening a blade. Please consider the entire configuration. I start clearly behind the edge, anywhere, with the blade as flat as possible on the stone. Then, little by little, I raise the spine and come nearer and nearer to the very edge. Verify the progress with the marker trick or by looking at the scratch pattern. Once I've raised a burr I now: the very edge has been reached. That is the moment to repeat the same process on the other side. 
With this approach you may reconstitute any double-bevelled edge without considering angles, proportions or counting strokes and you'll have thinned a bit behind the edge and avoided the shoulder formation that's so characteristic of EdgePRO-edges.


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Aug 31, 2014)

liren1 said:


> About finding the correct angle - it took me a little while - but I learned how to do that when stropping by changing the angle slightly until I feel it start to push into the strop - is the technique similar ?



There are different techniques out there and you'll just find one that works for you. The trick you used for finding angle with stropping will work exactly the same with stones (providing you'll be gentle enough not to dig into stones). 

I think if you watch Jon's sharpening videos, you'll get the basic idea http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB 

Sharpening isn't a rocket science so you could learn it either way, with cheap stainless knives and sandpaper, or with carbon knives and naturals stones or with cinder block if you care to beat Murray Carter


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## Matus (Aug 31, 2014)

I would only say that Herder carbon knives are super easy to sharpen (I have the K2 model on loan right now) - as they are VERY thin and apparently not hardened as high as the number HRC60 would suggest. If you go with Herder then just pick something from their 'K' line.

No one cares to beat Murray Carter


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> What is your point?


Reread my post nr 15, Tim


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2014)

The K-series by Herder are nice but a bit expensive. I do believe they reach the HRC60. Their edge retention is just as good or as bad as that of a Misono Swedish. Not that it matters though for the ease of sharpening.

About the Misono Swedish, to illustrate the freehanding procedure I proposed: I've sharpened my 240 gyuto this morning. No big deal, no big thinning, no full progression. Starting on a Chosera 2k, stropping on split leather, deburring on a 5k, stropping and deburring on the White-Snow 8k. Started as said somewhere behind the edge, at the lowest angle I'm fine with at that moment. It happened to be some 8 degree. I ended up with 16 degree on the right side and 24 degree on the left one while on the 8k.


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## liren1 (Aug 31, 2014)

I think I'll get a Sabatier - they're nice knives, carbon, soft enough, and reasonably priced.
An expert (e.g. Carter) will always be able to do more with a given equipment - and since I'm not at a McGuivre level yet where I can make a stone using a rubber band, superglue and packet of tampons and produce an edge that would put old Master Doi to shame, I'll probably stick with the good stuff and learn on that ....


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## Benuser (Aug 31, 2014)

I guess you're aware they come out of the box with a terrible edge. That might be your case both an advantage and an inconvenience.


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## liren1 (Aug 31, 2014)

I heard they're not consistent, and that sometimes they come ok, whatever happens it will be good practice.


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 31, 2014)

liren1 said:


> Wow thanks, a lot of advice coming very quickly!
> Yeah, I know technique is most important, and it will probably take me a while, I'm basically a home cook, so my knives get to be used only so much.
> To make things easier, I will probably contact Maksim and see what he can offer, I'd rather not buy from the US at the moment, I'll wait until I visit there, hopefully next year some time.
> So I understand 3 is what I should be looking for.
> ...



Sure you can raise a burr on your CCK Cleaver, thin behind the edge kick in your final bevel. Cleaver sharpening you can use same techniques, however it feels different because the handle hand which controls spine height is farther away from the blade edge than on a Gyuto. I have found good place to get old carbons are swapmeets & garage sales. Old carbons for dirt cheap.


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## osakajoe (Sep 2, 2014)

Timthebeaver said:


> I think it was Murray Carter in one of his DVDs sho said that it was "99% technique and 1% tools". But what would he know about Japanese knives eh?



I agree with that if you have no level of experience or technique. Then it is all about technique. But if you are skilled tools really do matter. Do you expect your expert craftsmen to produce their level of product all on technique? No. Take here in Japan your skilled wood craftsmen. They cannot produce great product unless they have their perfect tools meaning their finely crafted tools (chisels,etc). A good chisel set costs more than $2,000, just for your basic set. 

If you're just starting and have no idea what you are doing then it won't matter what tools you use, you won't make a quality product. Once you've raised your level of skill then it does. Put any skilled driver in a Prius and he can only go so fast and get his best time. Upgrade his car, his tool, he can immensely increase his speed, his cornering, his control of the car (his technique) and increase his time. 

I've met Carter-San and am not sure when that DVD was made, but he has changed his views from years ago. He's more humbled as a skilled craftsman. If tools didn't matter he would not be in business, he or any or skilled knife craftsmen, because knives are tools of chefs. And if technique only mattered all chefs would be buying china made 5$ knives. 

If you ever hear anyone say tools don't matter only technique does, then he is a fool and has much to learn


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## JBroida (Sep 2, 2014)

@osakajoe i think you will be surprised at how much i hear craftsmen talk about skill and technique over tools... its not to say that the tools arent important, but they arent as important as learning great technique. Especially in sharpening, great results can be achieved with rather simple tools (i.e. king stones over, say, chocera).


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 2, 2014)

Jon, am i right in remembering you saying the maker of your Jin knives uses rudimentary stones and olive oil?


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## Keith Sinclair (Sep 2, 2014)

I used the large King 1K for years at work & a polishing stone for yanagi's. Do I prefer my Bester 1200 & Gesshin stones, absolutely. When I bought my second Yanagiba from A-Frames he showed me his technique on a Kitayama stone, so I got one of those with the big wood base.

Feel strongly that technique is most important. Aimless sharpening with lousy technique and no focus doesn't matter what stone using. Osakajoe agree that someone already skilled at freehand tools matter. But few people are really good freehand sharpeners even in the food service industry.


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## liren1 (Sep 2, 2014)

This has become a very interesting thread indeed. So after all this, and after reading other threads and looking things up elsewhere I'm tossing between Chosera 800 and 3K or JNS 1K and red Aoto synthetic. I'll probably flip a coin. And later on, when the time comes, I will buy a coarse stone, but I probably don't need one now.
Without a doubt these are excellent stones and clearly above my skill level which is, hmm, pretty non existent at the moment. But I intend to have some skill in a few months time, so why not buy good tools ? 
To continue the car analogy, a skilled driver may drive faster and take tighter turns on a Fiat Panda than what I can do on a BMW 700 Series, but at least I will do better on a BMW than I will do on a Fiat Panda.. And since the cost of stones is not prohibitive, and they will last me years and years, why not ? 
By the way - how do JNS 1K and Sigma Select 1.2 compare ?


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## Timthebeaver (Sep 2, 2014)

liren1 said:


> This has become a very interesting thread indeed. So after all this, and after reading other threads and looking things up elsewhere I'm tossing between Chosera 800 and 3K or JNS 1K and red Aoto synthetic. I'll probably flip a coin. And later on, when the time comes, I will buy a coarse stone, but I probably don't need one now.
> Without a doubt these are excellent stones and clearly above my skill level which is, hmm, pretty non existent at the moment. But I intend to have some skill in a few months time, so why not buy good tools ?
> To continue the car analogy, a skilled driver may drive faster and take tighter turns on a Fiat Panda than what I can do on a BMW 700 Series, but at least I will do better on a BMW than I will do on a Fiat Panda.. And since the cost of stones is not prohibitive, and they will last me years and years, why not ?
> By the way - how do JNS 1K and Sigma Select 1.2 compare ?



The car analogy is a very poor one, surely you can see that. A better analogy is that a golfer with a 28-handicap would still be s*** at golf whether armed with a £1000 set of clubs or the hire clubs from the driving range. A scratch golfer would be pretty handy with either set, but will extract the maximum benefit from the superior equipment.

When you're starting out, better stones will not equate to better edges. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but it's true. Your skill will be the limiting factor.*

That being said, if you can afford the high end stuff, why not? As a home cook, stones last a long time.


*This is not a slight. I have been freehand sharpening since 2007, and I consider my skill to be limiting (by a country mile).


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## Benuser (Sep 2, 2014)

With fast cutting stones that do provide a good feedback the learning process will be much faster. Choseras as proposed are now available at a very reasonable price.


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## liren1 (Sep 2, 2014)

If you don't play golf, then you don't play golf.
Golf may be a better analogy - if after 7 years you still consider your skills not up to the standard you require - then maybe you would like to be Tiger Woods, and very very few people ever become Tiger Woods or whoever is top dog at the moment.
Of course my skill will be the limiting factor - I don't don't doubt that - the question is - in 6 months - 1 year will I be able to do more/better with good stones compared to 'cheaper' stones ? 
Anyway - for two stones - the cost difference is small especially considering how long they will serve me.


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## psfred (Sep 2, 2014)

The price difference between mediocre stones and good ones is small, and hard composition stones are easier to learn on. 

You should be aware though, that there are many, many choices, and as your technique improves, as it will, and your set of knives expands, that there are always "pairings" between stones and knives. You can get a decent long lasting edge on most stone combinations with most knives, but you will find that for any specific knife there will be a progression of stones and strops that produces an astonishingly sharp edge that is difficult or impossible to get with another combination. 

One example is fairly soft stainless knives and synthetic "aoto" stones (Naniwa "green brick" and "synthetic blue aoto" of unknown maker) -- sharpening on a 1200 grit Bester and then on the synthetic stone followed by light stropping with chromium oxide on leather or wood will produce a very very sharp edge that will push cut tomatoes with ease. Other knives, particularly hard Japanese steel knives, will not attain that edge with that stone progression, and in fact will often not cut well at all. They require more work with finer grits to refine the edge, but if you try that with the soft stainless it wont' be as "sharp" in use as if was when you stopped with the synthetic aoto. 

Just the nature of the beast, if you will. 

Peter


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## liren1 (Sep 3, 2014)

So knives and tools seems to be having a sale of Naniwa stones. They don't have the 800 I was looking for, but I did just snatch a 1k at 20% discount. I assume/hope that one is just as good... ? 
Based on what I read in this forum and previous advice I chose a stone with the base attached.


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## Benuser (Sep 3, 2014)

Great stone, attractive pricing


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## liren1 (Sep 12, 2014)

Progress report... 
So I got the 1k Chosera and today gave it a try. I decided to set the bar high so to speak and go straight to the Tojiro Senkou which is VG 10. It took me a while , I spent about 40 minutes, but eventually I got something that is almost as good as I could get with Edge Pro. Since this was my first attempt ever at real free hand sharpening on my own knife, I declared victory and called it a day. The sharpness of the edge is not 100% the same along the knife, but it's pretty close. The tip I obviously still need to work on more. Next I will try a carbon Sabatier, I understand it should be somewhat easier.
I honestly think that having used Edge Pro was helpful, but perhaps not strictly necessary, I certainly will not throw it away or sell it, at least not now...
I can also see how freehand can be faster, once one becomes more adept.

So I need a second stone - should I get the Chosera 3k (or the new Professional 3k that replaces it), or something else ?


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## Benuser (Sep 12, 2014)

Congratulations so far! A 3k Chosera would be a great choice for further refinement, but especially to get rid of the VG-10 which should get abraded. After that you should really be fine. Perhaps stropping on split leather, denim, newspaper, linen or cardboard will get you a very little further with carbons. I like the Naniwa Snow-White 8k a lot; it provides a toothy but refined edge, while most finer stones will just refine and make you loose some bite.


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## liren1 (Sep 13, 2014)

Benuser said:


> Congratulations so far! A 3k Chosera would be a great choice for further refinement, but especially to get rid of the VG-10 which should get abraded. After that you should really be fine. Perhaps stropping on split leather, denim, newspaper, linen or cardboard will get you a very little further with carbons. I like the Naniwa Snow-White 8k a lot; it provides a toothy but refined edge, while most finer stones will just refine and make you loose some bite.



Thanks for this advice. I actually do strop on leather with 1 micron diamond spray. I notice an improvement on the carbon knives, not so much on this Tojiro knife, like it's doing nothing.
I'll get the 3k stone - either the Chosera or the Professional which knifeandtools carries (is there a difference or it's exactly the same only thinner ?)
The 8k snow white - is that also good for he stainless steel knives, or only carbon ?


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## Benuser (Sep 13, 2014)

No own experience yet with the new Chosera line. 
I use the Snow-White as well for stainless, but that's basically deburring.


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## mikemac (Sep 13, 2014)

IMHO, the next & final stone in your progression should be a 5k (ok, maybe a 4k, but 5 is more common/traditional). the 3k isn't enough of a jump/benefit, and stropping with DIA makes more sense than 3k -> 8k.


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## riba (Sep 13, 2014)

Having a 1k and 3k chosera, I'd jump immediately to a 5k or 6k stone

@mikemac: you were faster


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## Benuser (Sep 13, 2014)

The Chosera grits are finer than the JIS. The Chosera 3k corresponds more or less to a JIS4k. The jump from 3k to 8k is great, no need to put a 5k in between, unless you're looking for a very polished edge. Performance wise it's not necessary and perhaps even counter-productive.


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## riba (Sep 13, 2014)

Benuser said:


> The Chosera grits are finer than the JIS. The Chosera 3k corresponds more or less to a JIS4k. The jump from 3k to 8k is great, no need to put a 5k in between, unless you're looking for a very polished edge. Performance wise it's not necessary and perhaps even counter-productive.


just to clarify, I meant I would skip the 3k stone


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## Benuser (Sep 13, 2014)

I see, my fault I guess. I wouldn't skip the 3k. It's a great final stone, and if the OP gets a 8k as I suggested, the 3k is still very useful to shorten the time on the 8k, especially if you want to keep a bity edge.


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## riba (Sep 13, 2014)

Sure, if one were to buy an 8k, I'd put something in between the 1 and 8 as well. But given the knives, I could live happily with only a 5/6k stone after the 1k (and perhaps a strop or 2).


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## liren1 (Sep 13, 2014)

Well, I've got other knives, mostly carbon, and I'm always one to go for excess 
I ended up with more knives than I need, and knowing myself, I'll end up eventually with more stones than I need. Fortunately for my bank account one thing I'm not interested in is cars, so still driving a 1999 Honda that is worth less than the Devin 270 on sale at the moment ....

I assume then that I will get the 3k first, and then a few weeks later either a 5-6k or the 8k snow white as suggested.
Other than aesthetic reasons (polishing ) - would there be any reason to go above 8-10k ?


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## liren1 (Sep 13, 2014)

Also would like to ask - the Chosera came with a little stone, I believe it's called Nagura ? How do I use it and for what exactly ? I've seen some references to it but not a clear explanation as to what exactly I should with it.


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## Benuser (Sep 13, 2014)

Traditionally it is being used for cleaning the stone under streaming water and remove steel debris from previous sharpenings. Some use it for creating a bit of mud. I never experienced any contamination from the coarse nagura (JIS600) on the finer sharpening stone.


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## Benuser (Sep 13, 2014)

liren1 said:


> Other than aesthetic reasons (polishing ) - would there be any reason to go above 8-10k ?


For kitchen work with double-bevelled blades a fine 3k like the Chosera should do very well. A Snow-white 8k will improve that edge a bit, a lot of other fine stones will above all polish without improving the edge. Some polishing will make your edge to loose its bite.


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## zitangy (Sep 14, 2014)

liren1 said:


> Also would like to ask - the Chosera came with a little stone, I believe it's called Nagura ? How do I use it and for what exactly ? I've seen some references to it but not a clear explanation as to what exactly I should with it.



I do believe that the small stone is a 1000 grit which you can get on their Home Stone series.

IF you leave the mud created from it.. then you will hv a mix of grits on the stone.

rgds d


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## Sam Cro (Sep 26, 2014)

Here are MY top 6 (SIX)Sites I order from Very Regularly, other then the ones listed already 

JNat's Store member on here : http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/for-knives/?sort=priceasc

Dave Martell :https://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/

MTC Kitchen Professional : http://www.mtckitchen.com/c-64-sharpening-stones.aspx#Filter=[Sort=5*ava=0]

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...th=335&zenid=60864ccdec6d6adffd38ed6c041443a5

Here is a site that is All Natural Stones ( Authentic Arkansas Novaculite for sharpening and polishing.)  http://www.naturalwhetstone.com/productssharpening.htm

http://global.rakuten.com/en/category/301397/?sm=5&h=3

These will get you started to a very addictive Stone collection.

Ret, Sgt. Robert D. Yates 

13 & On Forge


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## Soccerman (Oct 4, 2014)

I would recommend the Choseras , I have 400 1000 5000. and a gesshin 15k, which I don't use it a lot. The feeling of chosera is very good, compared to shapton, kings that I own before.

They also wear slow compared to other brands' same grit stones, and leaves very fine scratches. 

Chosera is a good balanced stone.


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