# Just pick my damn gyuto please



## meagan_myers (Jul 11, 2012)

Ok. So I am not a knife expert. I have looked through the forums and I am overwhelmed. I am wanting to get a 240 or more preferably a 270 gyuto for under $300. My current knife inventory includes several messermeister knifes (about 10 years old). My first "japanese" style knife was a MAC MTH-80. I realized then I never would buy a german knife again. My husband got me a Shun classic 10" chef knife for Christmas about two years ago and it is not holding up well. I am now looking to upgrade. I am not the friendliest person when it comes to knives.:O I am more interested in real quality, sharpness and durability than the name. Damascus does turn me on on. 

There are a few knives that have caught my attention, like the JCK Hattori FH series and HD series, The Blazen 270, the ******** Laser etc. The Blazen and the ******** seem to be out of stock right now (**** website).

So, how would you spend my $300?


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## EdipisReks (Jul 11, 2012)

in what way is the Shun not holding up well?


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## chinacats (Jul 11, 2012)

Welcome!

Anything you buy will need sharpening, so I would spend 200 on a nice J-knife (plenty of options here depending on profile, handle, etc...) and 100 on a nice combo stone. You can spend a few hours watching videos (good ones you can link to here), practice on your old knives, and always have an extremely sharp knife that will put a smile on your face. 
As to not being good to your knives, buy stainless--and more than that, try to change your habits or you will always be frustrated by the edges of your knives.


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## Birnando (Jul 11, 2012)

Well, I got the **** from **** for about****. I was really ***** with that...


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## ajhuff (Jul 11, 2012)

Is anyone else seeing how unhelpful this whole censorship thing is?

-AJ


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## El Pescador (Jul 11, 2012)

Just the price you pay for playing here. There are other forums....



ajhuff said:


> Is anyone else seeing how unhelpful this whole censorship thing is?
> 
> -AJ


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## Eamon Burke (Jul 11, 2012)

+1 what is happening to the Shun? No knife will withstand abuse.

[video=youtube;9ouGq8TNtIo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ouGq8TNtIo[/video]


Anyone know when Butcher & Baker will have Pierre's knife back up for sale? Might be a good fit here...


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## obtuse (Jul 11, 2012)

It doesn't bother me. 

If you're looking for something that would be a big upgrade over the shun, check out the gesshin ginga line at JKI.


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## meagan_myers (Jul 11, 2012)

Well, this is probably frowned upon, but I have the Chef's Choice 1520 for sharpening. 

As far as the Shun goes.... My husband left it in water while I was away on business. It pitted out pretty big chunks off the blade. I was actually pretty shocked on how bad it looked. I was unable to sharpen it out. I will have to have a professional take care of it. I am now exploiting my husband's guilt and buying myself a new knife.:biggrin:

I am not horrible when it comes to knifes. I just don't pamper them. Sometimes I won't wash a knife immediately (or within a day), but I don't leave them in water. I guess I should probably stick to stainless.

The Laser knife I was talking about is a R+chmond


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## EdipisReks (Jul 11, 2012)

you definitely don't want carbon, then.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 11, 2012)

EdipisReks said:


> you definitely don't want carbon, then.



Maybe a Boye dendritic cobalt kitchen knife? It's not steel and will never rust.


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## Mr.Magnus (Jul 11, 2012)

stick to stainless if you cant comit to take care of it like a baby. now a steel that is very cool is ZDP-189 witch is stainless powdersteel at 67 or 68 in HRC now that can sound scary cuz normaly this hard steel chips easly but not with this steel. Miyabi 7000mcd use this steel with 132 layers of damascus but thay only got a 8" gyuto.. i paid 250$ NIB got lucky and you might find a good deal to. or even another brand with zdp-189.


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## mhlee (Jul 11, 2012)

I just have a few questions in order to possibly narrow down your choices.

First, do you intend to use this knife for everything, including vegetable prep and chopping chicken bones? Basically, how rough are you with your knives?

Second, do you want a Western handled knife such as the Mac and Hattori, or a Japanese style handled knife such as the Shun? Do you prefer one or the other for more sturdy tasks?

Third, how important is Damascus to you?

Thanks.


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## Dave Martell (Jul 11, 2012)

Birnando said:


> Well, I got the **** from **** for about****. I was really ***** with that...




This post is not very helpful.


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## Deckhand (Jul 11, 2012)

With The knives you mentioned. This would be a good choice.

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/gesshin-ginga-270mm-stainless-gyuto.html

Call Jon there. He will help you pick and is very helpful.
I prefer wa handles, but to each there own. The ones you mentioned were western handled.


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## Dave Martell (Jul 11, 2012)

Birnando said:


> Well, I got the **** from **** for about****. I was really ***** with that...





ajhuff said:


> Is anyone else seeing how unhelpful this whole censorship thing is?
> 
> -AJ




We censor inappropriate words and specific business links _(or words that are used in their links)_ because some businesses are not welcome to benefit here at KKF. These businesses set the relationship tone between us - we are simply reacting to what they have done and/or still do. This situation will not change nor will complaining about it. The poster (Birnando) clearly knows that he's stirring the pot by making that post and I want him and everyone else to know that this behavior isn't welcome here.

As to the original poster being censored, well that's unfortunate. Again, we are simply reacting to a situation to which we are forced to deal with.


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## Crothcipt (Jul 11, 2012)

+1 to Eamon on the Butcher and Baker knives. I think they will suit you very well. 

Dam can't find the page anymore.


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## meagan_myers (Jul 11, 2012)

I will use this knife for most things, except cutting into bones and slicing bread.
I think I prefer a western handle, but I don't mind a rounded wa handle like the Shun.
Damascus isn't that important. I just find it sexy.


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## meagan_myers (Jul 11, 2012)

Oh, I forgot to add that I am leaning towards the Blazen 270 gyuto.


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## bkdc (Jul 11, 2012)

ZDP-189 is definitely NOT stainless. Any steel will stain eventually, and I have a ZDP-189 pocketknife that I've put through the ringer and it definitely rusts and pits faster than VG-10. If her VG-10 Shun Classic pitted, I guarantee a ZDP-189 will rust even faster.

She has a lot of choices, in knives for her 300 dollar mark.

BTW, you can't go wrong with the Blazen. It is an amazing blade. If your husband leaves it dunked in water, it too will rust or pit.


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## Deckhand (Jul 11, 2012)

Crothcipt said:


> +1 to Eamon on the Butcher and Baker knives. I think they will suit you very well.
> 
> Dam can't find the page anymore.



http://www.butcherandbakerstore.com/
Easier just to call/email/pm Pierre and ask for mid tech gyuto.


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## mhlee (Jul 11, 2012)

I would recommend calling Jon at Japanese Knife Imports. For your budget, you could get two excellent knives from him like the Suisin or Yoshihiro and something else. You know, just in case one of your knives ends up in the sink again.


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## Crothcipt (Jul 11, 2012)

They pulled Pierre's and Randy's page is what I was saying.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jul 11, 2012)

Crothcipt said:


> They pulled Pierre's and Randy's page is what I was saying.



I wonder what's up?


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## Deckhand (Jul 11, 2012)

Crothcipt said:


> They pulled Pierre's and Randy's page is what I was saying.



I noticed I couldn't find it either. Their loss. Two top knife makers.


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## meagan_myers (Jul 11, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I have a lot more researching to do. 
As far as my husband goes....He will not be doing that again!


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## shankster (Jul 11, 2012)

Konosuke Swedish Stainless or HD.
Very sexxxy knives indeed...


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## heirkb (Jul 11, 2012)

mhlee said:


> I would recommend calling Jon at Japanese Knife Imports. For your budget, you could get two excellent knives from him like the Suisin or Yoshihiro and something else. You know, just in case one of your knives ends up in the sink again.



+1 on this. Jon is really good at what he does and he's honest. There are many expensive things in his store that I've wanted and he's implicitly steered me away every time because it wouldn't be a good fit for my skill level. I would contact him if I were you.


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## Crothcipt (Jul 11, 2012)

Yes Jon has a rep. for getting a good fit for what you are looking for.


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## Lucretia (Jul 11, 2012)

meagan_myers said:


> As far as my husband goes....He will not be doing that again!



as if they can really be trained.....:rofl2:


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## tk59 (Jul 11, 2012)

If you want the damascus look, western, I would go with Henckels Miyabi (not the S series steel). They have zdp and vg10. I'd go with the VG10 since it sounds like the Shun was fine. It just met an unfortunate end. The HattoriHD/Ittosai Kotetsu is a better cutter and is also VG10. I like it better. It also has nice kanji chiseled into it. You can also try the Togiharu series at Korin or the Gekko line at Japanese Chef Knives. All of these are nice choices with the VG10 blades generally being a bit chippier. Good luck. Oh, and Chefs' Choice isn't the greatest and I have no idea why they have a coarse wheel at all but if you aren't willing to learn to sharpen, it's probably the most cost effective option.


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## tk59 (Jul 11, 2012)

Sorry. If you want me to pick your damn gyuto, I would go with the Ittosai Kotetsu/Hattori HD. It is the best cutter amongst the western damascus looking jobs and VG10 on that is plenty good. Enjoy.


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## Mr.Magnus (Jul 11, 2012)

Zdp-189 is 20% chromium - higher than even 440C stainless (16-18%)! So yes, it is a stainless steel


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## El Pescador (Jul 11, 2012)

Mr.Magnus said:


> Zdp-189 is 20% chromium - higher than even 440C stainless (16-18%)! So yes, it is a stainless steel



I worked as a commercial captain for years...trust me stainless rusts.


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## Mr.Magnus (Jul 11, 2012)

yes thay rust but stil a stain (less) steel.


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## bkdc (Jul 11, 2012)

It also has a stunning 3% carbon content.

Stick ZDP-189 and VG-10 in water and wait it out if you want a head to head.  I already know the answer from real-world experience.

The only knife I own that won't rust is made of H-1 Nitrogen steel.


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## bkdc (Jul 11, 2012)

Mr.Magnus said:


> Zdp-189 is 20% chromium - higher than even 440C stainless (16-18%)! So yes, it is a stainless steel




It also has a stunning 3% carbon content.

Stick ZDP-189 and VG-10 in water and wait it out if you want a head to head.  I already know the answer from real-world experience. "Stainless" rusts. And ZDP-189 with its incredible carbon content (responsible for the ultra-hardness) rusts more than other stainless in my experience. The original poster already commented that her VG-10 Shun (which is considered a stainless steel) pitted under water.

The only knife I own that won't rust is made of H-1 Nitrogen steel (no carbon) which is designed for seadwellers and divers. Once you temper it (tempered with repeated usage followed by sharpening ... it's not heat tempered), it actually gets extremely hard on the knife edge up to HRC64 or so.


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## Mr.Magnus (Jul 11, 2012)

bkdc said:


> It also has a stunning 3% carbon content.
> 
> Stick ZDP-189 and VG-10 in water and wait it out if you want a head to head.  I already know the answer from real-world experience. "Stainless" rusts. And ZDP-189 with its incredible carbon content (responsible for the ultra-hardness) rusts more than other stainless in my experience.
> 
> The only knife I own that won't rust is made of H-1 Nitrogen steel (no carbon) which is designed for seadwellers and divers. Once you temper it (tempered with repeated usage followed by sharpening ... it's not heat tempered), it actually gets extremely hard on the knife edge up to HRC64 or so.



if she wanna stick the knife in water over night then she should go with the H-1 Nitrogen steel for divers then


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## ajhuff (Jul 11, 2012)

The high carbon content inhibits the corrosion resistance.

-AJ


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## bluntcut (Jul 11, 2012)

Mr.Magnus said:


> Zdp-189 is 20% chromium - higher than even 440C stainless (16-18%)! So yes, it is a stainless steel



Chromium carbides locked-up ~7% of Cr, leaving less than 14% Cr by stainless standard. My hand-waving calc:

Zp composition: 3% C, 20% Cr, Fe the rest.
Good zdp HT blade: steel (Fe+0.5%C), Chromium carbides (Cr3C2: 2.5%C + ~7%Cr, there are at least 2x C atom/volume when compare to Cr).
-> Almost stainless

Bad zdp HT blade: steel (Fe+0.5%C), Chromium carbides (Cr23C8 or Cr7C3: 2.5%C + 10+%Cr).
-> probably worse than D2 & 440C.


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## tk59 (Jul 11, 2012)

bluntcut said:


> ...there are at least 2x C atom/volume when compare to Cr...


I didn't realize percentages were by volume. I figured they were by mass.


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## ajhuff (Jul 11, 2012)

They are. 3% carbon is 3 weight percent.

-AJ


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## bluntcut (Jul 11, 2012)

tk59 said:


> I didn't realize percentages were by volume. I figured they were by mass.



Initially, I tried to fit the carbide formula by mass but there seem not enough Cr atoms since Cr is 4x atomic mass of C. Oh well, AJ said by mass, it's then. Maybe a chemist or metallurgist can help here.


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## scott6452 (Jul 11, 2012)

Hehe, and poor Meagan only asked for a recommendation :biggrin: I love this forum!


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## EdipisReks (Jul 11, 2012)

Mr.Magnus said:


> Zdp-189 is 20% chromium - higher than even 440C stainless (16-18%)! So yes, it is a stainless steel



and it's locked up in carbides, as has been mentioned. the stuff is semi-stain resistant, tops.


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## tk59 (Jul 11, 2012)

I understand that the carbon trapped in iron carbides can vary up to ~1%. Also, Mo, V and W in zdp are strong carbide formers. I'd still say zdp is stainless although it's clearly not as stainless as most others.


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## EdipisReks (Jul 11, 2012)

tk59 said:


> I understand that the carbon trapped in iron carbides can vary up to ~1%. Also, Mo, V and W in zdp are strong carbide formers. I'd still say zdp is stainless although it's clearly not as stainless as most others.



the ZDP knife i owned, a Henckels Cermax 240 gyuto (a knife i would certainly own again), formed a grey patina eventually, and i didn't own it for that long before selling it to a friend.


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## meagan_myers (Jul 12, 2012)

All I have to say is... WOW


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## bprescot (Jul 12, 2012)

meagan_myers said:


> All I have to say is... WOW



And this ain't even NOTHING yet. Wait till these guys REALLY get started!

Not to short-change that process, but I'll just throw in my $.02. EVERY steel will eventually rust if left in standing water long enough. Sure, you could wait until we arrive at a consensus about what steel will last the absolute LONGEST in that water before rusting, but I'll instead just advise to please *please* try not to leave the knife in the sink for that long... Seems easier than finding a special non-steel-super-metal Kitchen Knife. So, if you please please DON'T leave the knife in standing water for long periods of time, and TRY not to let it sit dirty for more than a day and there's likely little true damage you can do to most blades. 

Here's a strategy that might help make that happen, and that's getting the blingiest nicest looking knife possible. My Corolla, for instance, is currently covered in dirt and bird, uh, "leavings". I guarantee you the case would be different if it were a Maserati rather than a Corolla, you know?

SO, long story short (too late!) my advice would be this: 
1.) Decide if you want a western or Wa shaped handle.
2.) Find a relatively inexpensive blade ($120 -$150ish) with good steel like a Konosuke Stainless or a Yosuke Stainless, or a great deal on a used stainless on this forum.
3.) Depending on your handle choice, post back here to find someone able to do a BEAUTIFUL custom handle for you in incredibly gorgeous wood.

With a knife like that, there is NO WAY you'll neglect it!


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## bprescot (Jul 12, 2012)

You know what, I actually have a Stainless Ginga out with Dave for a rehandle that I was intending to sell once it's done anyway. Dave's a bit backed up, though, so that might be longer than you want to wait.


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## Eamon Burke (Jul 12, 2012)

LOL even for us, it is very rare to get this technical on a suggestion thread.


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## mikemac (Jul 12, 2012)

meagan_myers said:


> All I have to say is... WOW



Yeah...no kidding!

Here's my recommendation - Hiromoto G3 or Hiromoto AS, they are about $145 & $160 respectively (for the 240's) here: http://japanesechefsknife.com/products.html

The G3 is the stainless version, and the AS is stainless clad SuperBlue ....
My experience: I have the AS in a suji, so it sees a different work load than a gyuto, but it's been one of the best intro or 2nd J-knives for us knife knuts for years, and for 'sexy-ness" the core steel in the edge will patina a bluish tint which gives the knife a alook you won't see elsewhere.
I picked up a G3 gyuto to serve as a beater at my Baja beach house and it is a really nice bang for the buck, all around knife, and really - I could sell the watanabe, tadatsuna, carter, and all the rest, and be "OK" with the G3. ( I won't, but I could...I keep telling myself that).
Finally - everybody should have the experience of buying from Koki at JCK - nothing wrong with Jon at JKI or Dave who runs this site, they too are awesome, but Koki set the standard. That leaves a bit of room on your budget and you have two choices. Get your new knife and run away from this site....OR hang around and we'll help you make those excess dollars, and a lot of their friends, disappear!


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## Namaxy (Jul 12, 2012)

EdipisReks said:


> the ZDP knife i owned, a Henckels Cermax 240 gyuto (a knife i would certainly own again), formed a grey patina eventually, and i didn't own it for that long before selling it to a friend.



My ZDP (a Kono), although used very little, has a slight patina.

FWIW - I thought the Hattori HD was a good suggestion.


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## meagan_myers (Jul 12, 2012)

Ok. Just to clarify. I am not looking for a knife that can soak in water. That was a one time mistake of my husband.


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## chinacats (Jul 12, 2012)

meagan_myers said:


> Ok. Just to clarify. I am not looking for a knife that can soak in water. That was a one time mistake of my husband.



I believe they get that, but the recommendations so far are all excellent knives that can't/shouldn't be soaked in water:>)

And if you make your husband read through this thread, I bet he never soaks another knife in water...


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## VoodooMajik (Jul 12, 2012)

bprescot said:


> You know what, I actually have a Stainless Ginga out with Dave for a rehandle that I was intending to sell once it's done anyway. Dave's a bit backed up, though, so that might be longer than you want to wait.



I'd take him up on this.


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## skewed (Jul 12, 2012)

VoodooMajik said:


> I'd take him up on this.



+1

Light, thin, stainless and should take a get edge. The new handle will certainly give it a nice bling factor.


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## VoodooMajik (Jul 12, 2012)

I haven't used Gesshin Ginga yet, but I've heard so much positive feed back I'm going to have to grab one eventually. Plus Dave's new shoes for it should be spiffy :cool2:


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## meagan_myers (Jul 12, 2012)

Man, this is why I am having such a problem. There are too many fine J-knives. 
If only I could see them in person.


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## chinacats (Jul 12, 2012)

meagan_myers said:


> Man, this is why I am having such a problem. There are too many fine J-knives.
> If only I could see them in person.



Depending on where you are located, there are likely members not too far away with knives you could look at...or vendors for that matter.


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## Birnando (Jul 12, 2012)

meagan_myers said:


> Man, this is why I am having such a problem. There are too many fine J-knives.
> If only I could see them in person.



Yes, you are quite right, there are tons of great products from a lot of various makers out there.
I would suggest to simply choose one of the many fine knives recommended in this thread.
I doubt you will be terribly unhappy with either one who has been mentioned here a couple times.

As you, I was flabbergasted by all the products out there, and eventually just went ahead and selected one, and built my kit after having made some experience with that first one.

Good luck on your choice


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## Johnny.B.Good (Jul 12, 2012)

If you want some more inspiration Meagan, check out the knife and gear galleries here: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/forumdisplay.php/72-Knife-amp-Gear-Galleries

Good luck with your decision.


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## ajhuff (Jul 12, 2012)

meagan_myers said:


> Man, this is why I am having such a problem. There are too many fine J-knives.
> If only I could see them in person.



Here's what you can do, what I do. I email Jon Broida at Japanese Knife Imports (you could call of course). I tell him what I want the knife to do, how I'm going to use the knife and anything that might be important to me, like stainless steel or handle type, etc. Then I ask him to recommend three for me. Then I pick one (sometimes two  ).

It's worked for me every time. I have 5 knives that I bought I either directly or indirectly from JKI. 

-AJ


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## labor of love (Jul 12, 2012)

i prefer getting jon the phone myself. i get more information and a better understanding out real conversations with him rather than email. however, to each their own. my problem is that i want every knife he recommends!


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## Crothcipt (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm afraid to talk to him. Just pics are enough for me and well I can't buy the store out.


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## Crothcipt (Jul 12, 2012)

Don't get me wrong Jon has talked people out of buying the most expensive knife for one that will be suited for them.


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## daddy yo yo (Jul 14, 2012)

bprescot said:


> You know what, I actually have a Stainless Ginga out with Dave for a rehandle that I was intending to sell once it's done anyway. Dave's a bit backed up, though, so that might be longer than you want to wait.


hmmmm, i might be interested if you're talking about a western handle. what size and what handle material did you choose?

@meagan_myers: i guess a 210 hattori fh is too small for you? i'd sell mine, only used 3 times for soft veggies and chicken. you can send me a private message if you're interested.


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