# Microscopic chips after sharpening? PLEASE Help



## Pete348 (May 13, 2020)

Hey guys
Ok so I have had lessons in Japan, off a sushi master in LA on sharpening, have the stones and the knives but every time I sharpen I get little tiny chips in the blade so Its not smooth
I have asked and searched on this for ages , loose steam and come back to it...
I will attach some pics, I burr, no prob, on a 400 then come down 800.1200,6000 and 8000 then leather.
Paper push sharp alot of the time but the nics grab the paper if you cut across and you can feel the niks catching the paper.
Any help appreciated? 
Thank you
Pete


----------



## Tristan (May 13, 2020)

Just to be clear, you are getting the chips after use? 
Or immediately after sharpening and which stone is causing the chips? If it is occurring during sharpening do you know which stone in the progression causes the chips.


----------



## Pete348 (May 13, 2020)

Hi
Only after sharpening, Thats a good question, 1 would say it looked good after the 1200 and the 6000 put the chips in, that pic is under a microscope, but you can feel them with your nail.


----------



## soigne_west (May 13, 2020)

Is this a recent thing? Or has it happened every time you’ve sharpened this knife? Does it happen when you sharpen other knives?


----------



## TSF415 (May 13, 2020)

Is that a shun? It happens on the shuns I’ve sharpened.


----------



## Tristan (May 13, 2020)

I can only hazard a guess as it's never happened to me - but perhaps reduce the pressure you're putting on the knife on the higher grit stones like the 6K.
Also try a different knife and check the edge and see if it is happening.


----------



## Nemo (May 13, 2020)

Which specific stones are you using?


----------



## Helmore (May 13, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Which specific stones are you using?


And is this on all your knives or a specific or set of specific knives?


----------



## Carl Kotte (May 13, 2020)

Wow, that’s annoying. I think other members have posed good questions above. I’m looking forward to seeing the answers. You’ll solve this!


----------



## Pete348 (May 13, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> Is this a recent thing? Or has it happened every time you’ve sharpened this knife? Does it happen when you sharpen other knives?


It happens on all knives, its me


----------



## Pete348 (May 13, 2020)

n


TSF415 said:


> Is that a shun? It happens on the shuns I’ve sharpened.


no, thats a kasumi


----------



## slickmamba (May 13, 2020)

I would definitely look at your pressure. On the larger chips, is it possible that its a huge burr with chips in it? Hard to tell from the pics.

maybe record a little of your sharpening technique


----------



## Pete348 (May 13, 2020)

s


Nemo said:


> Which specific stones are you using?
> [/QUOTe
> stones 400 800 1200 6000 8000


----------



## Pete348 (May 13, 2020)

Pete348 said:


> s


stones 400 800 1200 6000 8000


----------



## Pete348 (May 13, 2020)

slickmamba said:


> I would definitely look at your pressure. On the larger chips, is it possible that its a huge burr with chips in it? Hard to tell from the pics.
> 
> maybe record a little of your sharpening technique


Ok, I go harder on the 400 and then ease off, I used what I was taught in Japan and have seen the bob kramer video. I just do the same as that, I have one of his knives too, same thing,
I will record a video tomorrow.

Is this normal? or am I just **** at sharpening?


----------



## Pete348 (May 13, 2020)

ther


slickmamba said:


> I would definitely look at your pressure. On the larger chips, is it possible that its a huge burr with chips in it? Hard to tell from the pics.
> 
> maybe record a little of your sharpening technique


there is deff no burr on it now, I burr at the start, not too crazy, but just so I can feel it.


----------



## slickmamba (May 13, 2020)

Pete348 said:


> Ok, I go harder on the 400 and then ease off, I used what I was taught in Japan and have seen the bob kramer video. I just do the same as that, I have one of his knives too, same thing,
> I will record a video tomorrow.
> 
> Is this normal? or am I just **** at sharpening?


its definitely not normal. I would suggest watching the japaneseknifeimport videos on youtube, or the knifeplanet ones. Both have great videos and the knifeplanet one focuses on pressure management. I would take a look at your edge after each stone and deburring to see whats going on. You should be using lighter pressure as you go up the stones.


----------



## soigne_west (May 13, 2020)

VG-10 steel?

I would definitely try not going so high in your progression. Maybe try stopping at 1200. The. Light pressure stopping motion on your 4000 finished with leather strip. Also, I think a less aggressive angle would help. But I agree with slick, watch the vids, take your time.


----------



## Helmore (May 13, 2020)

Pete348 said:


> stones 400 800 1200 6000 8000


I think they're asking for brand and such. A King stone will behave quite differently from a Naniwa for example. 

Also, when in your sharpening progression do these chips show up? Only on the last stone used, or before that? Only after stropping on leather? 

Have you tried only sharpening on the 1200 grit stone, getting it as sharp as you can on that and then finishing on the leather strop? Do the chips still show up if you use only those two steps? Or sharpen on just the 1200, no leather strop. This way you can try to remove as many variables as you can and see where the problem stems from.


----------



## Nemo (May 13, 2020)

Pete348 said:


> stones 400 800 1200 6000 8000


I meant, which brand and which line within that brand?

E.g.: Naniwa Chosera, Shapton Pro, King Hyper...


----------



## Pete348 (May 13, 2020)

Helmore said:


> I think they're asking for brand and such. A King stone will behave quite differently from a Naniwa for example.
> 
> Also, when in your sharpening progression do these chips show up? Only on the last stone used, or before that? Only after stropping on leather?
> 
> Have you tried only sharpening on the 1200 grit stone, getting it as sharp as you can on that and then finishing on the leather strop? Do the chips still show up if you use only those two steps? Or sharpen on just the 1200, no leather strop. This way you can try to remove as many variables as you can and see where the problem stems from.


Ah I see, so sorry! They are king de lux stones (although the 400 is not labled, 
I have never thought to look at the progression to be honest, I just worked thru them, I will do upto a 1200 tomorrow and check to see, Its a good point and see your logic. 

Thank you so much for your replys.


----------



## Helmore (May 13, 2020)

Also, have you used it for food prep with the chips, and if so, did you quickly form more chips in the blade during use? If so, maybe the sharpening angle is too acute for the brittleness of the blade and you end up chipping the blade at the slightest pressure.

Anyway, try to isolate as many variables in the sharpening equation as you can. First, minimize the amount of stones used during sharpening, preferably to only a single stone, and try to get it screaming sharp on just that. If it's still chipping then, now use that minimized setup, but try sharpening at a less acute angle. And so on. Experiment I'd say. 

Also, have you watched the videos slickmanba suggested? Seeing how they do it may help you find a solution.


----------



## LucasFur (May 13, 2020)

Looks like a Zkramer Vg-10 by the damascus. -- plz correct if im wrong. 

The breaks all look "Different" 
Some look like they impacted the corner of the stone. 
Are your stones flat? - Give a good lapping using the pen technique and cut down those corners. 

Image 2 (3rd Picture) 
has one of those "Carter" lateral pressure (lighter) breaks. - See video 
so if it only happens when sharpening, Are you leaving your hand on one spot of the blade while doing stropping motions "under pressure" this might cause you to accidentally be using the corner of the stone to "pop" the edge causing microchips?




When sharpening on your fine stone ... are you accidentally cutting into the stone ever? 

your doing something right off your 1200. what is different to your 6k?


----------



## osakajoe (May 13, 2020)

Were the chips there before you started sharpening? As in dull and some small chips here and there, when you decided to resharpen


----------



## Benuser (May 13, 2020)

Make sure the factory edge is really gone. Verify with marker and loupe you've got clean bevels with your coarsest stone and are not only accumulating debris on top of the old edge.
Factory edges tend to be both weak and unpredictable. Often they're only a service to the end user who will anyway put his own edge on in. In that case the used angles are extremely low, far lower than can be used as a general purpose knife with board contact. So, the factory edge isn't always to be actually used.
Weak they often are due to poor buffering for deburring. Best get completely rid of it and put a reasonable edge on it, 25-35° inclusive.
Please don't follow Mr Kramer's example where pressure is concerned. I'm quite sure he knows what he is doing, but that doesn't mean sharing that technique with relative novices is such a great idea. Big pressure may help with thinning far behind the very edge. Otherwise, some risks are involved. For the time being, please apply a light touch when you're approaching the very edge. Use a marker and a loupe to see where you are. Better take your time, or have a coarser stone.


----------



## M1k3 (May 13, 2020)

Make sure you're keeping the knife parallel to the stone. You could be "bending" the knife over the edges of your stone.


----------



## Helmore (May 13, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> You could be "bending" the knife over the edges of your stone.


Wouldn't rounding off the edges of your stone during flattening help to mitigate this a little? Of course, not actually "bending" the knife on the edge or your stone at all will be the better solution, but just wondering if it will help at all or if you'd just move the pressure point that way.


----------



## M1k3 (May 13, 2020)

I meant instead of the knife staying parallel with the stone, you could be tilting the knife, causing the edge of the stone to dig in and chip the blade.


----------



## refcast (May 13, 2020)

Three things can be happening, based on what I've experienced:

(1) Grit contamination on any of the stones. Which is larger or loose particles on the stone from previous stones or from sand, dirt, etc. The leather especially . . .if the knife edge is thin and if you're stropping hard or fast.

(2) Previous chips are not sharpened out

(3) The stones you are using are really hard, which makes chips during sharpening more likely from grit contamination.


----------



## ian (May 13, 2020)

refcast said:


> (1) Grit contamination on any of the stones. Which is larger or loose particles on the stone from previous stones or from sand, dirt, etc. The leather especially . . .if the knife edge is thin and if you're stropping hard or fast.



Yea, gotta be careful here. I've definitely learned this from experience. A stone flattened with an newish Atoma 140, for instance, can sometimes have a stray diamond on it, which can scratch up your blade, or I guess potentially microchip your edge.

Not really convinced this is what's happening to you, though...


----------



## bahamaroot (May 13, 2020)

Since it's happening on every knife you sharpen I think you're just using too much pressure after raising and removing your burr. You need to try using lighter pressure after raising your burr and even lighter after removing your burr.


----------



## Pete348 (May 18, 2020)

Hi Guys
Ok, One reply maybe easier, So many valid points and have noted them all, thank you
Today I sharpened, good burr and used the 400
then went to the 1200 not so hard this time, it was an ok edge but not that sharp however
no chips, interesting...

None of my stones are flat anymore, they all go down in the middle
Was super carefull to keep washing the stones and knife
went a little bigger angle

Should I just keep going on the 1200 to get paper push sharp?
or is this achieved by the 6000

I have deff cut into the 6000 and 8000
seems they are quite soft(kept wet all the time(is that bad.

Thank you so much
Seems I know nothing about sharpening.

Pete


----------



## Helmore (May 18, 2020)

You should be able to get paper push sharp off a 1200 grit. Maybe if don't quite get there from just the 1200, try to strop it on some folded newspaper and check if it does push cut after that?


----------



## M1k3 (May 18, 2020)

Can also try this on the 1200.


----------



## Carl Kotte (May 18, 2020)

I agree with @M1k3 . Try refining the edge, while getting rid of residual burrs and unevenness, using the technique shown in the video. #1200 can be sharp enough for many tasks, if done right.


----------



## Nemo (May 18, 2020)

Flatten your stones.

Unless you are some kind of master sharpening guru.

But only if you want the edge to be as sharp as you can get it.


----------



## bahamaroot (May 20, 2020)

Refine on your 1200 more, you should have a very sharp edge off that stone. If your knife is not sharp off the 1200 going to a higher grit is not going to help. You may have come off your 400 too soon, I can easily and smoothly cut phonebook paper off the 400. And yes, flatten your stones, it will help you!


----------



## psfred (Aug 9, 2020)

Flat stones are a requirement, not an option. And why are you starting with a 400 grit stone for normal sharpening? I don't like to have 400 grit sharpening scratches at the edge under any circumstances, only use that low a grit when repairing something (currently a rusted and pitted plane blade and a yanagiba that had an unfortunate encounter with a belt grinder). Low grit stones and super hard steel results in edge chips every time.

Use light pressure while sharpening, high pressure doesn't speed things up much but will give you more chipping and stone wear while also tending to cause blade rotation at the same time. The stone will do the work, you don't have to apply energy.

For normal sharpening, start with 1200 grit. I would also suggest using 1200 grit to get rid of the edge chips, I have a strong suspicion you are applying too much pressure on the 400 grit stone and causing micro-cracks that extend back past what steel you are removing with a 1200 grit stone. You will have to grind them out with light pressure on a 1200 grit stone. Penance for being hasty, I think (like I'm doing on the yanagiba). 

There is no fast and easy way to excellent edges -- once you get them you can maintain them without a lot of effort, but you have to get there first.

Use a loupe around 20x and verify that you have a good apex too -- if you are using too much pressure you can roll up a wire edge before you actually reach the apex on a 400 grit stone (or roll the knife into the edge) and still have a rough uneven edge when you use the 1200 grit. a good apex off a 1200 grit stone at 20x should look hazy but defect free apex -- no shiny spots, no holes, no "divots" out of the edge, no burr if properly de-burred well. 

Sharpening is a skill, and it takes quite some time to get really good at it. Patience is your friend....


----------



## Bear (Aug 9, 2020)

If your stones aren't flat and you put a little too much pressure on the handle, the edge of your knife can go below the stone edge causing the chips. If you are doing this you will probably be hearing some really awful sounds.


----------



## McMan (Aug 9, 2020)

This is a good thread--lots of helpful information and lots of variables. 
My thinking is that it's a few variables interacting as opposed to just one thing... 
Flatten all stones well, lighten pressure, assure burrs are fully removed, keep angle consistent ( as judged by sharpie trick), try a slightly less acute angle. 

To add a variable/question... I would wonder if this could be an issue of a partially removed burr that's getting yanked off at the higher grits, hence the micro-chips. Might feel as if it's gone on the low grit but small parts may be "flopping" to the other side. Notice I didn't say "This is an issue of a partially removed burr." Just something to mull over the next time you go through a progression. After you've done you're deburring, you could double-check by pulling through cork or hard felt to see what's up.

Also, are you using edge-leading or edge-trailing strokes?


----------



## psfred (Aug 9, 2020)

Ah, burr removal. You must abrade a burr off, tearing it off by any other method will damage the apex. Lots of tricks, but the first one is to use light pressure while sharpening to avoid a large burr in the first place. 

And watch for random tipping of the knife into the stone edge first, one of my special tricks to take three times as long as it should to sharpen something. Not only will you remove the apex and have to re-establish it, but with coarse stone you can cause micro-cracks.


----------



## VicVox72 (Aug 10, 2020)

Get yourself a kitchen scale and place your stone on the scale. Press tare. Do your sharpening motions exactly as normal but look at the number on the scale. 
It should be max 1lbs. Better less. I know BKramer says 4-8lbs and he is probably one of the best bladesmiths alive .. but.. don't. On higher grit stones perhaps 8oz are enough. Edge leading strokes to deburr? 3oz might be all you need.


----------



## Bobby2shots (Aug 10, 2020)

I just took a close look at your pics,,,,, that's bloody awful.

When you're stroking the knife over the stone, are you moving your finger-tips along the blade, and ensuring that the portion of the blade you're touching and applying pressure to, is ALWAYS over the stone? It almost looks like you're stradling your stone,,,, not moving your finger-tips along the blade. If you apply your pressure (finger-tips) only on the tip of the blade, and that portion of the blade is over the edge of the stone, you may actually be bending the blade ever so slightly,,,, and if the edges of the stones have not been bevelled (chamfered) properly (knocking the sharp corners off) you'll get chipping from pressing too hard, because the focus-point of that pressure, is now directly at the sharp corners of the stones..


----------



## Matt Jacobs (Aug 10, 2020)

I have definitely chipped my edge when I started sharpening knives. I was sharpening a VG-10 knife and once I saw the chip I tried to figure our why. Basically I didnt have my form down yet and like others have stated I had too much pressure on the handle. As I went over the edge of the stone my handle dipped and caused the blade to deform. I was probably doing on other knives as well but that particular knife resulted in micro chips where blades of other steel did not.
I slowed way down after that and lightened my pressure on the handle. Not only did the chips stop but my knives got much sharper I assume from less blade wobble. As I also saw in other comments, I never go below 800 grit on any of my standard knives. I sharpen often enough there is no need. I find that I get cleaner edges either doing 800 and stropping or 800 to a 5k then strop. I stopped using my 1000 to 4000 grit stones because I think there is more room for error the more stones you use. If you put a good edge on a lower grit stone I dont find it necessary to go through a progression. I use a 320 on a repair but that is it. I would flatten all of my stones, then start at 1200 only and perfect that before adding more stones.


----------



## VicVox72 (Aug 10, 2020)

Matt Jacobs said:


> I had too much pressure on the handle.



As JKI and Korin videos stress: the handle hand basically doesn't push down at all (except perhaps with one finger at the heel section)


----------



## JDC (Aug 10, 2020)

Last time this happened to me was because that the knife was thinned too much. A more pronounced micro-bevel at a higher angle solved the problem, leaving a screaming edge.


----------

