# Should I buy a/some stones?



## spyne (Jul 25, 2021)

Hey all, tapping into the vast knowledge around here to understand if I should spend some hard-earned on whetstones.

I currently have a 210mm gyuto (aogami super) and a 150mm petty (19c27 stainless). I sharpen them every few months on a Hapstone M2 guided system with some old Edge Pro stones that, honestly, probably need to be flattened or replaced which has me thinking, do I make the jump to free-handing on a whetstone (as much as I like the 'dumbness' of using the guided system).
I'm just a home cook and not chasing a mirror polish or the super-keenest edge possible.
Just want something that's easy to use and will give me a very good working edge without taking hours.
What I've looked at so far;

Suehiro Cerax 1000/6000 combo stone CR-4800 = around $95-$100 AUD
(can also get this with a glass plate and some adhesive sandpaper for flattening, for $128 AUD)

Shapton Pro Koramaku? - 1000grit + 5000grit = $200 AUD

Shapton Glass - 500grit + 2000grit = $160 AUD
These are NOT the double-thick version, I don't know if these are available in Oz. Can also get the stone holder (necessary?) for another $120.

Happy to hear feedback or other recommendations.


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## daniel_il (Jul 25, 2021)

cerax 1000+ rika 5000\ ouka 3000 - great combo, i like this edge a lot but the suehiros are all soaking stones and really messy.

regarding shaptons, i have sg 320&2000 ( i assume the 500 is great as well)- the glass stones are very dish resistant, easy to store and accurate. i prefer those over my 1000&3000 naniwa chosera.

shapton pro- i only have the 2000, which is great for my German and softer stainless knives.. they are softer than the SG, i wouldn't recommended them for high hrc steel like aogami super.

stone holder is nice but should cost you around 30-40usd. you would also need a sort of flattening stone or diamond plate.

Daniel.


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## PineWood (Jul 25, 2021)

Don’t be afraid to start freehand sharpening! I started out with a Ruixin chinese edge pro clone (but with decent stones as the stones that came with it were rubbish). After a while i started to feel more confident about sharpening, bought full-size stones and never looked back. In fact it’s much easier to sharpen freehand (once you know how to do it) than setting up an edge pro or similar jig. About what stones to get, others have more experience, Daniel gave you already good advice. Don’t think too much about it, I believe you can have great results with either of the three options.


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## adam92 (Jul 25, 2021)

Stone holder is not necessary.


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## coxhaus (Jul 25, 2021)

My old German knives have not seen a stone in over 10 years. I switched to a Worksharp when they first came out. I now use a Worksharp Ken Onion which is much better for sharpening kitchen knives. I have no plans to go back to stones.


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## cotedupy (Jul 25, 2021)

What @daniel_il said... Suehiro Cerax 1/3k combi is a fantastic stone to start with. And a fantastic stone full stop. Or for a nice cheap option, and also a genuinely superb stone, King 1200.

(And if you're anywhere in the vicinity of Adelaide you're welcome to come round post-lockdown and have a go with some of mine, get your eye in with freehand sharpening etc.)


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## daveb (Jul 25, 2021)

Make the call early: soaker or splash and go?

Soakers feel better in use and provide better feedback. If you can perma-soak them it's a good option - otherwise drying them after use can be cumbersome. I like them when I have time to properly set up and spend some time with the stones.

S&G are more "wham, bam, thank you ma'am". Little feedback but easy to use.

Cerax would be sufficient for soaker. (I don't like combo stones). A Rika 5K (if available) is a nice finishing soaker. Soakers dish more than the S&G, prepare to buy a flattener with any soaking stones.

For S&G I've come to really like the Shapton glass stones, SG500, SG4000, will get it done with any knife. If you go all glass the "Field Holder" (cheaper than their stone holder) will hold 3 glass stones and is an excellent stone holder as well The Shapton Pro are also quite good, I used a line up of SG500, SP1000, SP2000 for quite awhile and still do on occasion. Shapton also offers some low grit options, SG220 among them that I use when I need to - suggest you can put off that purchase for a bit.


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## Pie (Jul 25, 2021)

Many, almost all, popular/common stones can give you a great edge in little time. Bonus is no set up time vs a rig. And in case you *do* end up chasing razor edge/fancy polishes, doing so with bench stones might actually be easier.

I’m a fan of the ease of use of shapton glass stones - true splash and go, hard, slow dishing, compact and easy cleanup. No rich colors to stain everything purple or green. Really nice and simple. Some of them are real gems too from what I hear. The white color is nice to see where you’re taking off steel and what you’re doing, good for us beginners.

In terms of the base, you can get away with a wet towel on a brick, but a cheap option for some clearance and stability is the Naniwa stone holder - adjustable for your potential future collection of stones.


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## daveb (Jul 25, 2021)

Pie said:


> In terms of the base, you can get away with a wet towel.......



The SG500 comes in a box that can be used as a stone holder for all the Shapton stones..


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## daniel_il (Jul 25, 2021)

daveb said:


> The SG500 comes in a box that can be used as a stone holder for all the Shapton stones..


I Think its only the 500 double thick version..similar box holder to the shapton pro boxes


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## spaceconvoy (Jul 25, 2021)

I like my shaptons but if I had to pay that price for them I would definitely find an alternative, they're not that special.

edit: I did not read that correctly this morning... I guess that's not a bad price, but the 5000 is too much if you're not sure about freehand sharpening yet. Unless you feel like your knives have gotten too thick behind the edge, I'd go with just the SP2k and a cheap diamond flattening plate for now


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## Pie (Jul 25, 2021)

daveb said:


> The SG500 comes in a box that can be used as a stone holder for all the Shapton stones..


Forgot about this, similar to the shapton pro boxes I assume?


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## daveb (Jul 25, 2021)

Same. Could be only the 2x, I've both and don't recall.


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## Delat (Jul 25, 2021)

Pie said:


> Forgot about this, similar to the shapton pro boxes I assume?



Definitely only the double-thick. I have the regular thickness SG500 and it came in the typical cardboard box.


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## Bart.s (Jul 25, 2021)

For me, whetstones are more versatile. You can change your sharpening angle on the fly, for example, the tip of a knife is usually thinner, so you raise your sharpening angle a bit at the tip to keep the bevel even from heel to tip. You can't do this on a rig. Also, thinning and polishing the secondary bevel is not possible on a rig.

There is a learning curve from a rig to freehand. You will have to learn to keep a steady angle with your wrist. However, principles stay the same, raising a burr, switching sides, raising a burr again, remove it, move on to the next stone. 

In terms of stones, my first decent set of stones were the cerax 1k and rika 5k. Relatively cheap stones, but they punch way above their pricepoint. If you want splash and go's, the shaptons are a good way to go, although I have no personal experience with them, they get a lot of love on the forum. My favorite splash and go's are the Naniwa 800 + 3000, which run a little cheaper in Europe. 

I'd stay away from the combi stones and just get regular benchstones. Also, later, perhaps add a coarse stone for repairs/thinning.

Hope this helps!


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## coxhaus (Jul 25, 2021)

Bart.s said:


> For me, whetstones are more versatile. You can change your sharpening angle on the fly, for example, the tip of a knife is usually thinner, so you raise your sharpening angle a bit at the tip to keep the bevel even from heel to tip. You can't do this on a rig. Also, thinning and polishing the secondary bevel is not possible on a rig.


I agree but it is harder to hold a straight edge on a long knife because of the versatility on using stones vs sharpening device. It takes a lot more practice on stones to not wavier on that long edge on say a 10-to-12-inch knife.


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## Bart.s (Jul 25, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> I agree but it is harder to hold a straight edge on a long knife because of the versatility on using stones vs sharpening device. It takes a lot more practice on stones to not wavier on that long edge on say a 10-to-12-inch knife.



Yes, there will be a learning curve to build some muscle memory to keep the right angle. But when you (somewhat) have it, I don't think there is a difference between sharpening a long or a short knife, the sharpening angle and motion stays the same.


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## Pie (Jul 25, 2021)

Harder to maintain manual consistency for sure. Especially near the tip. Comes with time


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## daveb (Jul 25, 2021)

Longer length = more flex. Flex is more of an issue than length.


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## M1k3 (Jul 25, 2021)

Suehiro or King for soakers.
Shapton Pro or Glass (I like the glass 500 and 4k and Pro 2k a lot).

Venev diamond stones are really nice also. While they may seem expensive, you get 2 grits with each stone. Especially with cheap stainless and high carbide steels. Still work great on simple carbons. The edge it leaves is super clean! I don't feel that stropping is necessary, still a little beneficial though.


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## branwell (Jul 26, 2021)

Some great advice here already. I'll throw in with the 500 & 2K or 3K crowd as a two stone setup. The 500 is great for totally dull knives and finishing trash steel knives and a good 3K can easily manage the jump from a 500 for your nice carbons.

As to free hand sharpening on waterstones? To me its like golf or tennis or a musical instrument. The concept is simple but the mastery of it takes a life time and in that resides an amazing journey.


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## coxhaus (Jul 26, 2021)

To me git 'er done. Power and belts are the fastest way.


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## Benuser (Jul 26, 2021)

I guess your knives may use some good thinning after longer jig use. You may consider to send them out so you only have to maintain them in good shape from there on. One 800-1200 and a 3-4k are then all you need.


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## coxhaus (Jul 26, 2021)

Been using power and belts for more than 10 years. My knives cut well in the kitchen. You guys have me polishing now with a WS KO leather belt and polishing compound which is more sharpening than I like.

I have at least 30 kitchen knives all sharp. My knives are all old Henckels 4star and Wusthof Classic knives. Recent addition is a MAC Pro 8.5 inch that my wife uses sharpened the same way.


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## daveb (Jul 26, 2021)

coxhaus said:


> To me git 'er done. Power and belts are the fastest way.





coxhaus said:


> Been using power and belts for more than 10 years. My knives cut well in the kitchen. You guys have me polishing now with a WS KO leather belt and polishing compound which is more sharpening than I like.
> 
> I have at least 30 kitchen knives all sharp. My knives are all old Henckels 4star and Wusthof Classic knives. Recent addition is a MAC Pro 8.5 inch that my wife uses sharpened the same way.




You keep saying that. Not sure power is a reasonable alternative for someone asking about their first stones. (Not that relevancy is a requirement)


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## coxhaus (Jul 26, 2021)

You are right I will bow out.


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## Edo (Jul 26, 2021)

I am just a beginner, so I just post as a suggestion. I saw in amazon a King stone 1000/6000 wouldn’t be perhaps a good alternative for 50€?
As I was checking the web, amazon suggested me a full set of stones, probably cheap quality, anyway I attach it too (60 €).


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## spyne (Jul 26, 2021)

Thanks for all the suggestions so far!!

@coxhaus - definitely not going the power belt path. For one, the KO costs $400 here in Australia. I also wouldn't trust a power tool for the delicate edge of a high HRC carbon knife.

Looks like just about anything will do, I guess my decision is whether I want soakers or splash 'n go, with the general advice being that soakers tend to give better feedback/feel as you work. Though they are messier and require more 'effort' with the soaking and drying.
At the moment leaning towards the SG 500 + SP...2000 or 5000?
Or Naniwa 800/3000 combo. Arata or Kagayaki?


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## daveb (Jul 26, 2021)

To succinctly summarize the SP5000: It be suck. 

My traveling set up has evolved over the years. Right now it's the best it's ever been with a SG500, SG2000, SG4000 in the field kit (holder and storage). If I know I'll be running into some nasty, (like most of my friends/relatives have) I'll forego the 4000 and take the SG220 in it's place.

What"s a Naniwa?


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## M1k3 (Jul 26, 2021)

daveb said:


> To succinctly summarize the SP5000: It be suck.
> 
> My traveling set up has evolved over the years. Right now it's the best it's ever been with a SG500, SG2000, SG4000 in the field kit (holder and storage). If I know I'll be running into some nasty, (like most of my friends/relatives have) I'll forego the 4000 and take the SG220 in it's place.


My travel kit is SP 120 and SG 500 and 4k in a Pro box.


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## spyne (Jul 26, 2021)

daveb said:


> My traveling set up has evolved over the years. Right now it's the best it's ever been with a SG500, SG2000, SG4000 in the field kit (holder and storage).


Do you find the SG4000 a necessity or the edge off the SG2000 is perfectly usable?


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## daveb (Jul 26, 2021)

For finer or better knives that can benefit from the 4000, I'll use it. Nice finisher. I do usually use the 2000 as an interim step before the 4000.

For knives with softer steel or on the cheaper end of spectrum the 2000 is perfectly useable. I've been known to stop at the 2000 for my own gyuto when I just want to get it done and get back to beating on the knife.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jul 26, 2021)

The answer to your original question is yes. I used a fixed system for some time and whole heartedly encourage you to explore free handing. You always have the system to reset things if you're struggling. And you will struggle. It is NORMAL! You do NOT produce hair whittling edges after a few goes and may never. I haven't free handing, but then again, I quite checking that a long time ago too...You will make mistakes and you will need to learn and you may find you plateau at a certain level. That is ABSOLUTELY OKAY! Do not start out trying for speed like you see in the videos. Be mindful of your angle and understanding what is happening along your bevel. Use a marker to show you. A loupe and light help as well.

Like @daveb I have the SG 500, 2k, and 4k. Since your knives are already tuned up, I'd recommend starting with the 2k. You can do a lot with it but also not be as concerned about removing too much metal to start. I would put the 4k as a distant want. Even with carbon steels I find myself not reaching for the 4k that much. I liked it a lot at first, and may warm back up to it, but I just like that 2k edge. That is not to say it is a bad stone or edge at all, I just personally find myself drawn to toothier edges.


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## Jovidah (Jul 27, 2021)

If it's any consolation, I think all of the stones in your original post are good enough that the limiting factor will be your skill and not the stones... for any reasonably foreseeable future. Grits is something you can do as minimalistic or extreme as you want. A medium stone is the bare minimum, a coarse stone becomes really useful if you want to thin a knife (which you eventually will), or sharpen up a really blunt knife, and a finer stone is great for that extra step (on steel where it matters). How fine? Welcome to the rabbit hole... 

Personally I like S&G since I can just quickly get going whenever I feel like it. Soakers work best if you can figure out a way to permasoak them. Water tank on the toilet is often suggested for that.


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## cotedupy (Jul 28, 2021)

spyne said:


> Thanks for all the suggestions so far!!
> 
> @coxhaus - definitely not going the power belt path. For one, the KO costs $400 here in Australia. I also wouldn't trust a power tool for the delicate edge of a high HRC carbon knife.
> 
> ...



I really wouldn't recommend the Kagayaki 3k.


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