# Is push-cutting harder on the blade?



## nortagem (Dec 15, 2015)

I use the rocking motion with my knife, and lately decided to try push-cutting as well.
It seems to me that this technique causes the knife to hit the cutting board a lot harder, even when being very careful.
When I rock the blade, you can hardly hear it touching the cutting board. That's not the case when push-cutting.

Is push-cutting harder on your knife's edge? Is it better to use harder blades (high hrc) with this technique? Or am I simply doing it wrong?


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## malexthekid (Dec 15, 2015)

It might be harder in terms of hitting the board. Though technique will fix some of that. But rock chopping is more likely to result in lateral pressure which is worse for the edge.


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## Asteger (Dec 15, 2015)

Not sure why push cutting would work out way for you. To me, it can be a more precise way of cutting and shouldn't be done with too much force. I suppose if it is, then your knife will also be rubbing on the board more as you make contact going forward, and so wear a lot. If you haven't, try watching some usuba cutting videos on youtube, because this is how I think of it. Maybe you're trying to go too fast and 'push' cutting downwards too much?

If you rock-cut, I think there's a tendency to pivot on the forward part of the knife, and so this can stress the steel (as m.kid mentioned) and cause chipping there. It's a more wear-inducing way to cut for me, and more appropriate to Western chef knives and softer steel, and edge pressure rather than sharpness to do the business, although of course it can be done well with good hard gyuto too.


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## nortagem (Dec 15, 2015)

malexthekid said:


> It might be harder in terms of hitting the board. Though technique will fix some of that. But rock chopping is more likely to result in lateral pressure which is worse for the edge.



Thanks for your reply. I'm not rock-chopping, I'm rock-cutting, or slicing. The tip of the blade always touches the cutting board.


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## nortagem (Dec 15, 2015)

Thanks, Asteger.
Rock-cutting, or slicing, seems to be very gentle on the blade. I use no force, and the slicing is very quiet. You may sometimes only hear the vegetable being cut.
I get no chips on my blade at all.

When I push cut, I obviously hit the cutting board a little bit harder. It's not going to be a near-silent slice.
As I only cut vegetables with my gyuto, I believe most of the wear on the edge comes from contact with the board.
The hrc of my knife is only 58, so I was thinking that perhaps push-cutting would cause greater edge-wear than slicing with a rocking motion.

What do you think?


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## MAS4T0 (Dec 15, 2015)

nortagem said:


> Thanks for your reply. I'm not rock-chopping, I'm rock-cutting, or slicing. The tip of the blade always touches the cutting board.



So you mean that you're rolling the knife back and forth, feeding the produce under it rather than walking the blade or pivoting at the tip?
That would avoid putting undue lateral stress on the edge.

I'm sure that there will be a difference, but I wouldn't expect it to be significant and I don't know which way it would go.

So long as you're using a suitable board, holding the blade with a light grip and not slamming the blade onto the board there shouldn't be any problems.

If you watch these videos:

Here he's testing the steel, so he's chopping the produce

[video=youtube;FFBQ6fwzm08]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFBQ6fwzm08[/video]

Here you'll see (and hear) how gently the blade touches the board when push/ pull cutting

[video=youtube;qOHx14MMDMw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOHx14MMDMw[/video]

Which is are similar to when you're push cutting?


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## nortagem (Dec 15, 2015)

Thanks, MAS4T0.
I guess the way I push-cut is closer to the second video - only I use a forward motion, where the guy i the vid moves the knife forward-to-back. (is that 'pull-cutting'?)
And although I use light pressure, I do hear the blade hitting the board a bit louder than when I rock-cut\slice.

Well, guess I'll just have to push-cut for a while and see if my blade needs re-sharpening more often or not.

Thanks for your help.


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## MAS4T0 (Dec 15, 2015)

nortagem said:


> I guess the way I push-cut is closer to the second video - only I use a forward motion, where the guy i the vid moves the knife forward-to-back. (is that 'pull-cutting'?)



Yeah, that's a pull cut.


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## _PixelNinja (Dec 15, 2015)

I was taught to stand at a bias in relation to the cutting board in order to use more shoulder and elbow movement to control the knife and 'kiss' the board when push-cutting; the blade should not be banging against the cutting board. Something like this. 

Otherwise, I would tend to think that the French rocking technique would result in more wear since you are more or less constantly rubbing the edge against the board, but that is just an educated guess at best.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 15, 2015)

_PixelNinja said:


> I was taught to stand at a bias in relation to the cutting board in order to use more shoulder and elbow movement to control the knife and 'kiss' the board when push-cutting; the blade should not be banging against the cutting board. Something like this.
> 
> Otherwise, I would tend to think that the French rocking technique would result in more wear since you are more or less constantly rubbing the edge against the board, but that is just an educated guess at best.



huh? stand at a bias? your hips should be parallel to the counter. also not sure how orientation to cutting board relates to "more shoulder and elbow movement".


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## malexthekid (Dec 15, 2015)

spoiledbroth said:


> huh? stand at a bias? your hips should be parallel to the counter. also not sure how orientation to cutting board relates to "more shoulder and elbow movement".



I don't think there is any "your xxx should..." when it comes to setting up. The variation in the geometry of peoples body will govern what ia comfortable.


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## _PixelNinja (Dec 15, 2015)

spoiledbroth said:


> huh? stand at a bias? your hips should be parallel to the counter. also not sure how orientation to cutting board relates to "more shoulder and elbow movement".


A bit like a fighting stance; left foot strait and right foot slightly to the side (I am right handed). The position relates in such that it more or less gives my knife holding arm more room and allows it to be in a more comfortable position in relation to the cutting board. I don't know about you, but if I stand with my hips parallel to the counter, my knife holding arm will naturally angle to the left, instead of being perpendicular to the counter/cutting board.


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## malexthekid (Dec 15, 2015)

_PixelNinja said:


> A bit like a fighting stance; left foot strait and right foot slightly to the side (I am right handed). The position relates in such that it more or less gives my knife holding arm more room and allows it to be in a more comfortable position in relation to the cutting board. I don't know about you, but if I stand with my hips parallel to the counter, my knife holding arm will naturally angle to the left, instead of being perpendicular to the counter/cutting board.



This is how i try and cut though i find i quite often revert to parallel with my knife angling across the board.


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## ThEoRy (Dec 15, 2015)

spoiledbroth said:


> huh? stand at a bias? your hips should be parallel to the counter.



No. You should stand at a bias. Righties should have their right foot back one foot length. This opens up your stance to get your hip out of the way of your elbow allowing clearance. This in turn allows you to use your knife in a straight north to south position. Otherwise your knife work would be done at a bias on the board.


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## Asteger (Dec 15, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> You should stand at a bias. Righties should have their right foot back one foot length. This opens up your stance to get your hip out of the way of your elbow allowing clearance. This in turn allows you to use your knife in a straight north to south position. Otherwise your knife work would be done at a bias on the board.



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## panda (Dec 15, 2015)

the noise from blade contact with board decreases as your technique improves. meaning push cutting will be softer on blade the better you get at doing it.


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## malexthekid (Dec 15, 2015)

It is interesting you say that because it decrease as you get better but increases with speed. Even the guys i think are really good make a lot of noise wheb going fast...


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 15, 2015)

ThEoRy said:


> No. You should stand at a bias. Righties should have their right foot back one foot length. This opens up your stance to get your hip out of the way of your elbow allowing clearance. This in turn allows you to use your knife in a straight north to south position. Otherwise your knife work would be done at a bias on the board.


disagree!

I stand parallel and manage to keep my knife pointing straight, so my work is done slightly to the right of my body (this is to "miss the hip" with my elbow, forcing me to stand a bit closer to left side of cutting board).

I just tried out what you guys are saying and it makes my back feel funny, so I guess I've adapted and am the odd man out. Interesting, as I don't spend a lot of time watching other people work so I had never really thought about this. In thinking this is probably a contributing factor to my funky ass posture. I will need to try to do better.


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## panda (Dec 15, 2015)

technique goes out the window when trying to go fast. those guys are just showing off.


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## kpnv (Dec 16, 2015)

spoiledbroth said:


> disagree!
> 
> I stand parallel and manage to keep my knife pointing straight, so my work is done slightly to the right of my body (this is to "miss the hip" with my elbow, forcing me to stand a bit closer to left side of cutting board).
> 
> I just tried out what you guys are saying and it makes my back feel funny, so I guess I've adapted and am the odd man out. Interesting, as I don't spend a lot of time watching other people work so I had never really thought about this. In thinking this is probably a contributing factor to my funky ass posture. I will need to try to do better.



this sounds super awkward and unergonomic. bias stance is better imo, but most people will just stand parallel to the board and cut stuff at an angle, which is harder to judge. in your case, your work is done off center from your body so you sort of have to reach further from it. it might not be apparent if you're just making dinner at home but a few million chops a day, you'll feel that strain. why put your body in an awkward position to compensate? the bias stance is not awkward at all and is quite natural. it's one of the first things i teach apprentices.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 16, 2015)

You can pick up alot of bad habits doing anything a few million times a day


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## IndoorOutdoorCook (Dec 16, 2015)

I've stood both ways. The only difference to me is if you stand parallel and cut diagonal across the board, it can become a board management issue.


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## inzite (Dec 16, 2015)

imo, more technique than anything else.


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## alwayssharp (Dec 16, 2015)

I think push cutting can wear down the knife quicker than a rock chop, but during training I was told not to worry about the knife edge wearing down, they have stones for that.
But still, when I push cut I try not to slam the edge.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 17, 2015)

In Union hotels where labor is not dirt cheap and extra manpower is kept at minimum to control labor cost, cutting fast is the norm. Speed comes with hours a day on the board. That's why I liked Japanese carbons easy to sharpen and touch up. Push cuts, slicing, chopping I never worried about my knives just do it and that's on plastic boards.

Main thing you don't tork or cut hard stuff with a thin gyuto. They can handle long cutting sessions prepping for banquets for most foods.


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## osakajoe (Dec 18, 2015)

panda said:


> the noise from blade contact with board decreases as your technique improves. meaning push cutting will be softer on blade the better you get at doing it.



+1

Old school Japanese chefs were taught it was more in the wrist. A retired chef here teaches me by making me hold a towel to my by with my elbow. Then doing my cutting. Seeing him push pull cut slice you barely hear the knife in contact with the board


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 18, 2015)

Osaka joe can you please clarify how to place the towel on your arm? I would like to practice this technique!


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## LuisMendes (Dec 19, 2015)

Might be a little off-topic, but as a musician (used to do it for a living, but wasn't being enough to pay all the bills) and that involves a lot of study on technique... Some things I learned along the years:

- To get speed you must have economy of movements, you waste too much time if your hands move more than is needed.
- Is often hard to separate harder and faster. When you try to go faster, sometimes you also play harder (louder) without noticing. 
- Pushing yourself on technique often makes your muscles get tense. You should then stop and relax. It's common to confuse this tension with pain caused by a bad technique, and practicing bad movements might lead to injuries. 

Don't know if this can be applied to knife technique. Personally I like to compare both, but I'm just a home cook. By the way, I noticed that I stand parallel to the counter and the knife is biased. Is this bad??


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## Mucho Bocho (Dec 20, 2015)

LuisMendes said:


> Might be a little off-topic, but as a musician (used to do it for a living, but wasn't being enough to pay all the bills) and that involves a lot of study on technique... Some things I learned along the years:
> 
> - To get speed you must have economy of movements, you waste too much time if your hands move more than is needed.
> - Is often hard to separate harder and faster. When you try to go faster, sometimes you also play harder (louder) without noticing.
> ...



My former wife plays with the Raleigh Symphony as first Oboe. The things you mention would apply to her discipline. It also reminds me of my first girlfriend. [emoji57]


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 20, 2015)

LOL


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## osakajoe (Dec 20, 2015)

spoiledbroth said:


> Osaka joe can you please clarify how to place the towel on your arm? I would like to practice this technique!



I will upload some pics soon


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 20, 2015)

osakajoe said:


> I will upload some pics soon



thank you my friend


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## Gark (Dec 20, 2015)

Good thread. Where is the best place on-line to learn knife handling techniques?


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## nortagem (Dec 21, 2015)

Gark said:


> Good thread. Where is the best place on-line to learn knife handling techniques?



Good question! Anyone?


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## MAS4T0 (Dec 22, 2015)

Gark said:


> Good thread. Where is the best place on-line to learn knife handling techniques?



Rick and Salty's videos.

Here:

[video=youtube;Rx1U-bja3i8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx1U-bja3i8[/video]

[video=youtube;K7LtTbxIlTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7LtTbxIlTE[/video]

If you look through their channels you'll find all you need.


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 26, 2015)

I notice with duller knives and harder vegetables (thick carrots, broccoli, etc.), that it's harder to get an even, soft push-cut without getting a loud "chop" on a board.


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## daveb (Dec 26, 2015)

Yep. It's cause your splitting the product - not cutting through it


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## Asteger (Dec 26, 2015)

FireDragon76 said:


> I notice with duller knives and harder vegetables (thick carrots, broccoli, etc.), that it's harder to get an even, soft push-cut without getting a loud "chop" on a board.



You need to apply more force, and when things give way you come down harder on the board. Boom


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 26, 2015)

Asteger said:


> You need to apply more force, and when things give way you come down harder on the board. Boom



Maybe... but not with a 5" santoku or 6 1/2" kiwi. Maybe a heavy Chinese "cleaver". As it is, trying to cut the carrots with the faberware santoku resulted in a few bits rolling off the counter (not a clean cut). It's strange because the knife slices paper OK. I think the blade profile of the santoku is more like an axe, if that makes sense.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 26, 2015)

FireDragon76 said:


> Maybe... but not with a 5" santoku or 6 1/2" kiwi. Maybe a heavy Chinese "cleaver". As it is, trying to cut the carrots with the faberware santoku resulted in a few bits rolling off the counter (not a clean cut). It's strange because the knife slices paper OK. I think the blade profile of the santoku is more like an axe, if that makes sense.



The point being made is that if a geometry of a knife is such that you need to apply a lot of force when cutting, that when the blade finally gets through the product, it will impact the board with more force - or "chop". The overall weight of the knife has little to do with this. 

Slicing paper tells nothing of the geometry of the blade, and you are using the term "profile" incorrectly. What you mean to say is "geometry".


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## Asteger (Dec 26, 2015)

Nah, you don't need a heavy knife. You'd have the same dynamic with a small petty that's too thick: the blade wedges into the food and stalls, tension builds, the food splits apart instead of being cut, tension is released and the knife hits the board with more force than it should. Just as daveb and I said above


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## Dardeau (Dec 26, 2015)

One of our prep cooks did this today with an eight inch Dexter, right into her finger. Seven stitches in a tiny cut because it went so deep because of the force behind it. 

Good geometry.., it doesn't just cut well, it saves you ER visits.


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 27, 2015)

Yeah... the blade wedges, that's exactly what's happening. Like an axe getting stuck in wood. Maybe this is an issue of knife size? Maybe a 5" knife is too small to be cutting a carrot? The ends of the carrot cut OK (still not as sharp as the Kiwi), but when I got up to the thicker part, then I started getting the knife wedged into the carrot.


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## Asteger (Dec 27, 2015)

Will say it again: too thick


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 27, 2015)

FireDragon76 said:


> Yeah... the blade wedges, that's exactly what's happening. Like an axe getting stuck in wood. Maybe this is an issue of knife size? Maybe a 5" knife is too small to be cutting a carrot? The ends of the carrot cut OK (still not as sharp as the Kiwi), but when I got up to the thicker part, then I started getting the knife wedged into the carrot.



No, it's *not* an issue of knife size. _Asteger_ has given the reason - twice. The geometry of the knife is causing the wedging. It is too thick and needs to be thinned. Refer to this thread: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/25511-Plans-to-thin-an-SRS15-santoku.


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## daveb (Dec 27, 2015)

This is not an infrequent area of confusion - I hear variances of the same question weekly.

Perhaps it would be useful to compare the edge of the blade to the bow of a ship (6 yrs Navy ya know). The bow of a Destroyer! is sharp, tapered and meant to cut through a lot of water quickly. It is not meant for a lot of torsional abuse and must be guided by a skilled hand. Similarly the edge of a well made knife is meant to cut through a lot of product but is not robust enough for hitting bones or other torsional stresses.

A knife like your kiwi and to some extent most German knives are built more like an Icebreaker. They are designed to take more abuse, plow through anything but not to move through product effortlessly. Hence the wedging you've observed.

Suggest you swap the Kiwi for a ball point pen, throw the Santoku off a bridge and get yourself a knife. For a hundred bucks you would never have to worry about the physics of carrots again. Smiley.


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 28, 2015)

I'm taking that into consideration but I'll point out the kiwi doesn't wedge in food. It's probably my favorite knife I have at the moment, but it's not the best for slicing meat (that's OK because most of the stuff I cut are vegetables). Here's a link to the knife: http://www.amazon.com/Kiwi-Brand-Chef-Knives-172/dp/B008QPBPLO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1451278866&sr=8-2&keywords=kiwi+knife I think Kiwi is a good example of something that performs better than its price.

My experience with the Faberware santoku was so bad I returned the knife and an unopened pairing knife of the same brand and got my money back. I guess this brand is not what it used to be.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 28, 2015)

FireDragon76 said:


> My experience with the Faberware santoku was so bad I returned the knife and an unopened pairing knife of the same brand and got my money back. I guess this brand is not what it used to be.



It never was.


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