# New knife laws in the UK.....



## Zwiefel (Jul 20, 2015)

How do these laws affect our Knerdy fellows and vendors?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33547806


----------



## cave_dweller (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm still looking for hard facts about the changes to the law, but as far as I can tell folks carrying knives with 'good reason or lawful excuse' won't be affected. So a chef carrying a knife roll to work can (I believe) carry on as before. I haven't found any reference to changes in 'legal carry' knives either, so it appears we can still carry a folding pocket knife (no lock, cutting edge of blade not exceeding 3").


----------



## chiffonodd (Jul 21, 2015)

Side note . . . As an American, I gotta say it seems amazing that there is a country where the national discussion is about knife crime.


----------



## ecchef (Jul 21, 2015)

So, if a Mohel is carrying an izmel....?


----------



## Burl Source (Jul 21, 2015)

There is a rumor that they are going to ban ball point pens as well. Those are really dangerous.
[video=youtube_share;WxKiK-SeBhE]http://youtu.be/WxKiK-SeBhE[/video]


----------



## Zwiefel (Jul 21, 2015)

cave_dweller said:


> I'm still looking for hard facts about the changes to the law, but as far as I can tell folks carrying knives with 'good reason or lawful excuse' won't be affected. So a chef carrying a knife roll to work can (I believe) carry on as before. I haven't found any reference to changes in 'legal carry' knives either, so it appears we can still carry a folding pocket knife (no lock, cutting edge of blade not exceeding 3").



I'd be interested to hear if you find something odd, alarming, or stupid...


----------



## bkdc (Jul 21, 2015)

It's sad that carrying a kitchen knife is a crime if you're not a cook. Of course, the Yakuza and asian gangsters are always depicted in the movies carrying gyutos to do their dastardly deeds.


----------



## stevenStefano (Jul 26, 2015)

Something else which makes me very angry is posting knives from the UK. I have sold a few knives and have one I wanted to send to Tilman to have some work done to it and I simply couldn't. Royal Mail's own regulations say posting knives and kitchen utensils is fine as long as they are well packaged. A different regulation says you can't post weapons. So when I tell the person in the Post Office that it's a knife, they say it's a weapon and refuse to accept it.


----------



## DamageInc (Jul 26, 2015)

stevenStefano said:


> Something else which makes me very angry is posting knives from the UK. I have sold a few knives and have one I wanted to send to Tilman to have some work done to it and I simply couldn't. Royal Mail's own regulations say posting knives and kitchen utensils is fine as long as they are well packaged. A different regulation says you can't post weapons. So when I tell the person in the Post Office that it's a knife, they say it's a weapon and refuse to accept it.



I always call it a "kitchen tool". It has worked so far.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jul 26, 2015)

bkdc said:


> It's sad that carrying a kitchen knife is a crime if you're not a cook. Of course, the Yakuza and asian gangsters are always depicted in the movies carrying gyutos to do their dastardly deeds.



Really?

It's supposed to be tanto, although I have seen a few depicted with deba or yanagi.

The police do have discretion, circumstances and just cause are big factors. If you're walking through the city centre at 2am with a knife hanging from your belt in a sheath then you're going to be in trouble, but if you're in the suburbs in the afternoon and have a knife roll in your bag it's generally not going to be a problem.

I've also found that value factors into it. If you've got a generic cheap knife and you try to claim that you're walking to a friends house to prepare dinner, it's probably not going to sit too well. On the other hand, it's generally agreed that you're not going to use a £1000 hand-forged tool to shank someone when a sharpened stick would work just as well.


----------



## stevenStefano (Jul 26, 2015)

DamageInc said:


> I always call it a "kitchen tool". It has worked so far.



Tried that and they were crafty and kept pressing me on exactly what it was


----------



## cave_dweller (Jul 26, 2015)

stevenStefano said:


> So when I tell the person in the Post Office that it's a knife, they say it's a weapon and refuse to accept it.



I've had this too. It doesn't help that the image they use on their 'banned list' is of a knife which is perfectly legal to own and to post. I pointed out the actual wording of the rules to the local post office counter assistant, they consulted the manager, I explained again, and was eventually allowed to post it, but it wasted a chunk of my time. I know of plenty of other cases where the decision went the other way, and customers were refused. A description of "kitchen cutlery" often helps, and is accurate. My latest trick is just to ask for the sheet that shows which items may not be posted and then say "I'm not posting anything that is listed here". Most times it gets me through.

A lot of UK makers have gone through this battle. Some have come to an agreement, others switched to using different branches.


----------



## cave_dweller (Jul 26, 2015)

Zwiefel said:


> I'd be interested to hear if you find something odd, alarming, or stupid...



I didn't. The change seems to be a version of the 'too many strikes and you're out' type rule. It looks as if a second knife offence will now result in an automatic jail term, but the rules that govern whether you're actually guilty of that offence do not appear to have changed. So it looks as if it's a change in sentencing guidelines rather than a change in what constitutes an offence in the first place.


----------



## stevenStefano (Jul 26, 2015)

cave_dweller said:


> I've had this too. It doesn't help that the image they use on their 'banned list' is of a knife which is perfectly legal to own and to post. I pointed out the actual wording of the rules to the local post office counter assistant, they consulted the manager, I explained again, and was eventually allowed to post it, but it wasted a chunk of my time. I know of plenty of other cases where the decision went the other way, and customers were refused. A description of "kitchen cutlery" often helps, and is accurate. My latest trick is just to ask for the sheet that shows which items may not be posted and then say "I'm not posting anything that is listed here". Most times it gets me through.
> 
> A lot of UK makers have gone through this battle. Some have come to an agreement, others switched to using different branches.



I tried like 3 different Post Offices and they were all the same. I rang Royal Mail to complain and they told me it's up to each branch how they interpret the rules, which is absolute ********. Eventually I found one where they didn't ask what was in the package but it was a lot of hassle to go through


----------



## gic (Jul 26, 2015)

I often carry a chef knife in a knife guard in my checked luggage when I travel when I think I am going to cook at a friends house during the trip since I can't count on friendshaving decent knives,. The TSA at US airports doesn't have a problem with it. Does this new law mean that I can't go from Heathrow to my hotel in London with my suitcase? Wow that would be weird..


----------



## Zwiefel (Jul 26, 2015)

cave_dweller said:


> I didn't. The change seems to be a version of the 'too many strikes and you're out' type rule. It looks as if a second knife offence will now result in an automatic jail term, but the rules that govern whether you're actually guilty of that offence do not appear to have changed. So it looks as if it's a change in sentencing guidelines rather than a change in what constitutes an offence in the first place.



That's how I read it....but sometimes these things result in overzealous enforcement.


----------



## malexthekid (Jul 26, 2015)

stevenStefano said:


> Something else which makes me very angry is posting knives from the UK. I have sold a few knives and have one I wanted to send to Tilman to have some work done to it and I simply couldn't. Royal Mail's own regulations say posting knives and kitchen utensils is fine as long as they are well packaged. A different regulation says you can't post weapons. So when I tell the person in the Post Office that it's a knife, they say it's a weapon and refuse to accept it.



The US has the exact same postal rules as does Australia and most other countries. 

Most postal services will just tell you you are sending it at your risk.


----------



## chiffonodd (Jul 26, 2015)

Zwiefel said:


> That's how I read it....but sometimes these things result in overzealous enforcement.



Yes it's a change in the mandatory minimum penalty for someone with a prior conviction for the same offense. This is very common for a wide variety of criminal offenses. Similar to DUI enforcement in most US states for example. Or violations of domestic violence no contact orders. Depending on the law, sometimes maximum penalties are increased, or crimes are elevated from misdemeanors to felonies depending on the predicate and current offense. Or sometimes, like the new UK knife law, the maximum penalty isn't affected, but the second conviction results in automatic (mandatory minimum) jail term.

Sometimes these changes can affect enforcement behavior. For example, prosecutors may be reluctant to negotiate (reduce) an offense when it carries a significant mandatory minimum sentence, because that sentence represents a legislative judgment that the offense is severe enough to warrant mandatory minimum penalties. Because legislation is passed by elected representatives and is supposed to represent the will of the people, prosecutors and others charged with executing the law have a duty to honor that democratically enacted judgment. On the other hand, a prosecutor may feel that the mandatory minimum sentence is too harsh in a specific case, because of equitable considerationo or other circumstances, and so may exercise prosecutor I also charging disrcretion, and not files charges or file a lesser charge. 

It also looks like judicial discretion is built into the law, as judges appear to have the option not to impose the mandatory minimum sentence in certain cases. 

Of course, discretion also begin s with the police, as it is their choice whether to make an arrest or not, or to refer the case to the prosecutor to review and make a charging decision.

Anyway, lots of variables in play here but it does seem that this law is aimed at combating violent knife crime by targeting repeat offenders. Hopefully it will be used judiciously.


----------



## Zwiefel (Jul 26, 2015)

chiffonodd said:


> It also looks like judicial discretion is built into the law, as judges appear to have the option not to impose the mandatory minimum sentence in certain cases.



Looks like lawmakers don't quite understand the word "mandatory" then....


----------



## chiffonodd (Jul 26, 2015)

Zwiefel said:


> Looks like lawmakers don't quite understand the word "mandatory" then....



lol yeah more like "mandatory, but . . ." Pretty common though to be honest. Lots of sentencing statutes allow judges to depart from nominally mandatory penalties upon certain findings. 

By the way, a lot of these mandatory minimum setencing schemes were intoduced (in the US at least) in the 1980s to combat sentencing disparity. The idea was to that people woukd as much as possible be treated equally under the law. But they still built exceptions into the laws to preserve a judge's ability to exercise discretion and impose "exceptional" sentences where appropriate. Could be higher than the normal sentence or lower than the normal sentence. Depends on the case and the judge's findings.

Has this worked well in practice? Well that is a topic perhaps for another day :whistling:

And now back to your regularly scheduled kitchen knives! :knife::knife:


----------



## Adrian (Jul 27, 2015)

Throughout 99.9% of the UK you are not in danger of seeing people running about brandishing knives ;-) This problem is associated with a tiny section of society in a few areas where drug crimes and gang behaviour tend to go hand in hand with knife crime. 

Most knife crime in the UK involves subjecting perfectly good (usually rather blunt) blades to the horror of a glass cutting board and one of those pull through grinding tools. 

There is minimal to zero risk of ever having a problem with carrying a chef's knife if it is safe (as opposed to brandished in public) and you are carrying it for a legitimate reason (I am on my way to prepare some food...). If I carry knives I tend to have them either boxed and wrapped, or in a knife roll. 

I quite often post knives (usually to my brother in the UK or my father in law in Germany) and we never describe them as knives. My brother tends to call them "machining steel templates" and I tend to call them "culinary tools". They are always sent in a rigid container, well wrapped. We have never had an issue. However, I have had a couple of problems with UK customs when importing knives from the US. For some reason they have twice insisted on collection in person, rather than allowing onward freight forwarding, which is a nuisance and has never been satisfactorily explained. However, when I picked up the knives (duty paid) they were handed over without question.


----------



## Zwiefel (Jul 27, 2015)

chiffonodd said:


> lol yeah more like "mandatory, but . . ." Pretty common though to be honest. Lots of sentencing statutes allow judges to depart from nominally mandatory penalties upon certain findings.
> 
> By the way, a lot of these mandatory minimum setencing schemes were intoduced (in the US at least) in the 1980s to combat sentencing disparity. The idea was to that people woukd as much as possible be treated equally under the law. But they still built exceptions into the laws to preserve a judge's ability to exercise discretion and impose "exceptional" sentences where appropriate. Could be higher than the normal sentence or lower than the normal sentence. Depends on the case and the judge's findings.
> 
> ...



True....on every count.


----------

