# My parents want to buy an australian Shepherd



## Brieuc (Nov 24, 2021)

My parents want an australian shepherd. They are 65. It will be their first dog. At the beginings i was against. But now I visited the owner i'm pro. The owner got two female. He garanteed us that they will be adorable and obediant dog. Do you think we will have any pb with them ? What's tour experience with australian shepherd ? How are they ? I got you two pictures. We have the choice with a red dominant a blue dominant and a black dominant. The black is crying too much my mother don't want him. But we can definitly chose between those two :


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## HumbleHomeCook (Nov 24, 2021)

They're very good dogs, especially if there aren't small children around for them to herd. Not that they are mean to children, but their herding can sometimes lead to unintentional tripping.

But, like all herding dogs, they require exercise and activity. Herding dogs have very active minds and a lot of stamina and that can lead to bad behavior if not considered. A good sized yard is a big plus but will still require dedicated play time and walks. This will be especially important in the formative and highly active puppy years.

As the old saying goes, a tired dog is a good dog.


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## LostHighway (Nov 24, 2021)

I've never owned Australian Shepherds but I've been around them extensively as well as most of the herding group breeds. I've owned Cardigan Corgis in the past and now have an Australian Cattle Dog mix.

Herding breeds tend to be intelligent, high energy dogs with a need to be kept occupied. Boredom often leads to destructive or neurotic behaviors. With the possible exceptions of Pembroke Corgis and maybe Shetland Sheepdogs I would *not* recommend any of the herding breeds as a first dog. If your parents can walk them at least once day, preferably twice a day, for half an hour or longer and are willing to enroll the dog in a good obedience school for at least two classes they might do alright but the first two or three years may be trying. Do they have a fenced yard? A four foot fence would be a minimum and they will eventually be able to jump that if motivated but herding dogs tend to respect fences more than something like a Husky for example.

If they're dead set on these puppies I'd personally go for the blue merle as I prefer that look.


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## AT5760 (Nov 24, 2021)

Aussies are *very high energy dogs*. They want to work, they are bred to work, and they will get frustrated if they are not given the opportunity to work or get significant exercise. If your parents are active people, and they are willing to do obedience classes with the puppy, then it could be a good fit. Are they retired? Will the dog be spending significant amounts of time at home alone? Do they have cats? Cats and herding breeds often don't mix that well.

In addition, a cute dog does not necessarily equal a healthy dog. While purebred dogs are often attractive, irresponsible breeding and excessive inbreeding has led to significant hereditary issues for many breeds. A good breeder isn't breeding bitches too frequently or too young. They are doing the appropriate health testing. I'm not too familiar with breed-specific issues with Aussies, but the American Kennel Club's website it a good first reference for research: https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/australian-shepherd/. Ask lots of questions of the breeder and don't trust anyone who refuses to answer your questions.

Dogs are great! I love dogs and couldn't imagine life without one. But, they are a lot of work and your parents should make sure they are ready for that commitment. 

FWIW, I like the red pup.


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## Matt Jacobs (Nov 24, 2021)

like everyone else has said very high energy. If you parents have time to walk and train multiple times a day it will be a great dog. If not, they will be very frustrated as will the dog.


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## Brieuc (Nov 24, 2021)

My parents are lucky they have a farm. My father is retired but he is not very energetic guy thats why i wasn't very sure of this choice. The breeding is great the guy is a connoisseur


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## Sdo (Nov 24, 2021)

All dogs are good. Can't tell the same about all owners.


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## Brieuc (Nov 24, 2021)

The red is not bad yeah. But i think the merle is better build. I think my mother also prefer it... but yeah hard to chose . They have a cat. A fourteen years old cat


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## Brieuc (Nov 24, 2021)

I think at the end it will be my dog XD


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## LostHighway (Nov 24, 2021)

A few words about prospective dog ownership:
1) If you're buying a dog from a reputable breeder as opposed getting a rescue* I would insist on a DNA test The genetic markers for a long list of heritable disorders have been identified and should be disclosed. They may or may not ask you to pay for the test. Embarkvet is the best of the currently available tests.
2) Most dogs require daily leashed walks and a fenced yard to be happy and secure although some more sedentary breeds can get by without the fenced yard. A tie out or an "invisible" fence plus shock collar are, IMO, *not *acceptable substitutes. Do not let your dog run free out of line of sight no matter how rural you are if you want your dog to live a long and healthy life (working dogs on the job are an exception).
3) Do sign your dog up for obedience classes. They are as much or more about training the owner rather than just training the dog.
4) I am not a fan of early spay/neuter. At least for male dogs, and for highly active or large breeds intact animals seem to develop better structure and tend to be less prone to skeletal or connective tissue disorders. I think you should wait at least a year to neuter and for some breeds up to two years. This tends to be less of an issue for small dogs (<40 pounds/18 kg when full grown) but I would still wait a minimum of six months.

*It should go without saying that you shouldn't buy a dog (or cat) from a pet shop or backyard breeder or puppy mill.


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## Brieuc (Nov 24, 2021)

LostHighway said:


> A few words about prospective dog ownership:
> 1) If you're buying a dog from a reputable breeder as opposed getting a rescue* I would insist on a DNA test The genetic markers for a long list of heritable disorders have been identified and should be disclosed. They may or may not ask you to pay for the test. Embarkvet is the best of the currently available tests.
> 2) Most dogs require daily leashed walks and a fenced yard to be happy and secure although some more sedentary breeds can get by without the fenced yard. A tie out or an "invisible" fence plus shock collar are, IMO, *not *acceptable substitutes. Do not let your dog run free out of line of sight no matter how rural you are if you want your dog to live a long and healthy life (working dogs on the job are an exception).
> 3) Do sign your dog up for obedience classes. They are as much or more about training the owner rather than just training the dog.
> ...




We are not going to neuter this dog. The breeder chose a worldclass male for his female. I have the genetics now 






So they chose the merle male. Now they have to chose a name. In france this year S is for the male...


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## Bico Doce (Nov 25, 2021)

Brieuc said:


> We are not going to neuter this dog. The breeder chose a worldclass male for his female. I have the genetics now


Neutering/spaying the dog can be better for the dog and owner. Unless you have plans to breed, which seems like a big leap given what I presume as you having limited experience with dogs, it’s usually better for all if the dog is neutered. They become less territorial and less frustrated, you can avoid habits such as a dog marking.

it seems like you are pretty committed to this decision, the only thing I would mention is that having a dog, at least one you treat well, is like having a child. They need constant care - training, exercise, mental stimulation. And this will be necessary day after day for 10+ years. Getting a high energy dog that was bred for a job is a tall order for even experienced dog owners. A frustrated dog can make your life miserable. When they are puppies it’s hard to envision how much work they will require of you and it is easy to get caught up in the moment and fail to give your own abilities an honest appraisal. With all of that said, I wish you the very best with your new dog


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## Jovidah (Nov 25, 2021)

Never knew Australian shepherds existed. Are they used to herd crocodiles?


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## MrHiggins (Nov 25, 2021)

Congratulations on the new dog! My avitar is a photo of my (now dead) Australian Shepherd, Higgins. He was a super good dog. I'm now raising a border collie who is also turning out great, but it's a lot of work. I like the herding breeds.












I see your parents already selected the blue Merle. I couldn't tell from the photos, but it kind of looked like the merle's ears were white? If so, take the dog in for a hearing test. If the inner ear is white, that can be a problem for deafness.

The only thing I'd add to what others have said is with regards to intelligent dogs and keeping them active and busy. That is: physical exercise is NOT enough. You need to challenge their brains, too. For example, my new dog loves to play frisbee. Rather than just throw, catch, retrieve, I mix it up by throwing it and having him stop half way, return to me, make eye contact, and then go get it. That's just one example, there are countless more. The added mental challenge keeps him sane. Don't underestimate it.

Anyway, it sounds like the new dog is going to a great home. Good luck and have fun!!

PS: I highly recommend two "training" tools. The first is Karen Overall's "Relaxation Protocol" which is a series of exercises that teach the dog how to be calm. Google it. Remember, dogs can learn how to be hyper or well-mannered, it's all about teaching them what's expected and giving them the tools to achieve good results. 

The second training tool is stupidly called Puppy Politeness Poker. Again, Google it. The point of it is that the dog needs to focus its attention on you before it gets something it wants. For example, the dog wants to go outside. Make it do something for you (like sit, spin around, or make eye contact) before you open the door. Mix it up so the dog can't anticipate what you're going to ask of it. This trains them that when they want something (go out, throw ball, get treat, etc...) they get the reward by listening to you. This makes a very deep bond between you and the dog, which is what you're going for.


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## Definegood (Nov 25, 2021)

Brieuc said:


> We are not going to neuter this dog. The breeder chose a worldclass male for his female. I have the genetics now
> 
> View attachment 153507
> 
> ...


As has been said before neutering early has negative health consequences for large dogs. You could also consider vasectomy for the dog unless you plan include breeding. Which brings up a whole host of other issues.


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## drsmp (Nov 25, 2021)

I’m a veterinarian and have a herding dog - Australian cattle dog. He’s my second. Very smart dog but he has to work, work, work or he’s a trouble
maker. He also will herd people - not me but anyone in my home. In public very sweet and gentle - “stranger” ( that includes my regular stay over HF and kids) in my home and he’s herding them. Has almost knocked over multiple guests - not mean but nose punt in the back of the knee or body checks. The farm may offer enough exercise and diversion to keep an AS worn out. But if your parents are at all frail , not up to walking, throwing balls/frisbees etc every day /multiple times an AS 
isnt a great choice. The first 4-5 years these guys are nonstop energy. Please keep in mind that breeders are to a degree salesman and tell you want you want to hear.


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## MrHiggins (Nov 25, 2021)

drsmp said:


> I’m a veterinarian and have a herding dog - Australian cattle dog. He’s my second. Very smart dog but he has to work, work, work or he’s a trouble
> maker. He also will herd people - not me but anyone in my home. In public very sweet and gentle - “stranger” ( that includes my regular stay over HF and kids) in my home and he’s herding them. Has almost knocked over multiple guests - not mean but nose punt in the back of the knee or body checks. The farm may offer enough exercise and diversion to keep an AS worn out. But if your parents are at all frail , not up to walking, throwing balls/frisbees etc every day /multiple times an AS
> isnt a great choice. The first 4-5 years these guys are nonstop energy. Please keep in mind that breeders are to a degree salesman and tell you want you want to hear.



Awesome to have a vetrenarian chime in! 

I agree that a young dog is filled with energy. I strongly believe that you can teach even the most energetic breed to be calm and well behaved, but that it takes a lot of work. 

In my post above, I edited it to add a post script that gives some guidance on how to begin to raise a well behaved dog. I'd like to get your thoughts, too!


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## Brieuc (Nov 25, 2021)

Hi everyone . I see that dogs are a serious topic. In fact the pbs would be : the dogs are from a bad breeding, my parents are too weak to train the dog,
may i answer to all of you.
The guy is a farmer. Not really a friend but a good collegue. We have bees in common that we breed it's a black special bee, anyway. My mother was in his team idk how to name their group. We saw two of his dogs they are two females that are very obediant. The guy told us that the AS is too popular these days and that there is very bad breeding with them. people can buy for 1000euros a non registered dog. I think that my parents need a friend since they are becoming old. That's life. The main advantage that we have is that i'm with them i work in their farm in summer. So when the dog will arrive in end january i will be there (even if i'm working in a restaurant in winter) . That's why i said that it will be my dog at the end. We will never abandoned the dog if there is pb. The thing can be, the dog does not fit with our lifestyle... as I said. The main advantage is that they are farmer dog and that the puppie will live with the mother and the grand mother for 2 month it can be the best way to train them.

After that we have to think to pay for a special trainer. But it is as hard to find a good breeder. 

I'll ask the guy for the genetics test...


Edit : the farm is a vegetable farm.


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## Bico Doce (Nov 25, 2021)

There are mini versions of this breed and other designer versions such as Aussie doodles and such. If your heart is set on an Aussie, maybe consider getting something that will be a better fit for your parents. A smaller lap/toy breed may be more aligned with their wants/needs.

There are breeds that I absolutely love for whatever reason but I know that I would never own them because we would be a bad fit for each other. To be fair I think a lot of dog owners just see a breed that catches their eye and then logic is thrown out the window. The wake up call doesn’t happen until later when they realize they were woefully unprepared to take on the challenge.

I will say that I am not a dog expert or veterinarian. I did in college work at a large dog boarding facility and I saw a lot dogs and their owners


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## drsmp (Nov 25, 2021)

These guys are super smart and definitely trainable. But you can’t change genetics - many have strong drives to herd and they need to work. They have a lot of energy and will need a lot of exercise. I wouldn’t worry about genetic testing and all that. I dont think the breeder is likely to rip you off. They just aren’t many laid back , hang out on the couch with grandma content with a short walk or two herding AS. Training can modify genetic drive and need for exercise but first time dog owners are rarely good trainers - they often are over their heads and get quickly frustrated with herding dogs.


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## Sdo (Nov 25, 2021)

Brieuc said:


> Hi everyone . I see that dogs are a serious topic. In fact the pbs would be : the dogs are from a bad breeding, my parents are too weak to train the dog,
> may i answer to all of you.
> The guy is a farmer. Not really a friend but a good collegue. We have bees in common that we breed it's a black special bee, anyway. My mother was in his team idk how to name their group. We saw two of his dogs they are two females that are very obediant. The guy told us that the AS is too popular these days and that there is very bad breeding with them. people can buy for 1000euros a non registered dog. I think that my parents need a friend since they are becoming old. That's life. The main advantage that we have is that i'm with them i work in their farm in summer. So when the dog will arrive in end january i will be there (even if i'm working in a restaurant in winter) . That's why i said that it will be my dog at the end. We will never abandoned the dog if there is pb. The thing can be, the dog does not fit with our lifestyle... as I said. The main advantage is that they are farmer dog and that the puppie will live with the mother and the grand mother for 2 month it can be the best way to train them.
> 
> ...


If you are too worried with the "bad" breeding adopt a dog instead of buying. You get it for free.
.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 25, 2021)

A couple of considerations



Brieuc said:


> My parents are lucky they have a farm.



While that is a great advantage for the quality of life of the dog... it is _not a substitute_ for guided exercise and stimulation. As everybody has said, these working dogs are highly intelligent and energetic. If you do not manage their mental and physical energy when they are young, they will likely develop delinquent behaviour. As @LostHighway said; destructive or neurotic behaviors are real risks.

So while the farm is a great 'backyard'... you will still need to enrich the dogs experience by playing/walking with them daily. This gives the dog something meaningful to do _and_ is a part of forming a bond and establishing good behaviour.

Again it is worth emphasising; the reward of bringing an intelligent animal into the family is high - but the amount of attention and effort that requires is higher than other breeds.





Brieuc said:


> I think at the end it will be my dog





Brieuc said:


> The main advantage that we have is that i'm with them i work in their farm in summer. So when the dog will arrive in end january i will be there (even if i'm working in a restaurant in winter) . That's why i said that it will be my dog at the end.



Think carefully about the training dynamic here. You might want to have a family meeting about that. Life will be easier for everybody if you all adopt the same approach to training and socialisation. Ideally you and your parents want be incentivising good behaviour and managing bad behaviour in the same way.

It is also best if you are a regular feature of the dog's life in the beginning. As obedient as these dogs can be, if trained well, that is a function of the relationship they share with their trainer/family. If they are distracted by something interesting, they are not going to listen to a stranger.




Brieuc said:


> They have a cat. A fourteen years old cat



It sounds like the wheels are in motion already. The welfare of the cat is a completely separate issue...

I don't mean to be cruel... but the cat is likely to experience a decline in welfare. Fourteen years old is pretty senior for a cat. For a lone cat that is used to free reign and undivided family attention, unless you have a particularly sassy or chilled out cat, it will likely be miffed by the dog. It is unreasonable to expect a cat to have any interest in getting along with a dog they did not grow up with.

I highly, highly recommend you read tips how to introduce them.

Again, taking your training seriously will help. Similarly, adjusting the family dynamic and territory. Consider how the cat can have a safe space - maybe part of the house that the dog cant access. If the cat is very cuddly, make extra effort to give the cat cuddles - don't let that get distracted by the puppy. If the cat has a routine, try not to break it. Be very strategic and careful about introducing the animals. Manage introductions incrementally. Both in terms of proximity and time spent together. If you are having success, think about ways to make the older cat higher on the pecking order (e.g. feeding first etc...)

If you are lucky the cat and dog will eventually get along. A more likely good outcome will be an uneasy long term truce - the cat may have no interest in interacting with the puppy but be happy in their own safe space.


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## Delat (Nov 25, 2021)

We have a little 25 pound shelter dog (my icon photo) that’s part whippet and therefore pretty high energy. She gets 2-3 outings per day or she’s a PITA. Outing one is me on a bicycle and her setting the pace, which is either a flat out sprint or fast trot for a good 20 minutes after which I’m exhausted and she’s not even panting. Then later my wife takes her for a 45-60 minute walk. Then after that I take her out for a 20 minute jog/walk. Even after all that, around dinner time she frequently gets zoomies and wants to run around more and play for an hour or two. She’s 5 now and thankfully/sadly slowing down just a tad but not a ton.

In summer here in Phoenix she only gets one very early morning outing due to heat, and then she’s whiny and a pest all day. So definitely know what you’re getting into with high energy breeds.

We fostered a Papillon that was super smart and really a total joy to train and play with. But I could see that she would need that type of regular stimulating engagement to be happy. Sounds like with an AS you get both the high energy and intelligence to be aware of.


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## timebard (Nov 25, 2021)

In case you need another point of anecdata about high energy/working breeds--my partner and I adopted a ~1 year old coonhound about a year ago. At this point he's grown into a great dog but the first six months or so were really difficult. Training work was basically an everyday need during those months, not because he's a slow learner but because it took a long time to decide listening to us more than 10% of the time was more fun than doing whatever he wanted.

Similar to herding dogs, he needs a minimum of two walks a day and some play time with us or another dog, or he finds something novel to destroy in the house. He's shredded hiking gear, a $300 down jacket, dress shoes, more socks than I can count, chewed on the corners of our wooden furniture, chewed through his own leashes, the list goes on... If your parents have nice stuff they're protective of, an older dog with lower energy may be a better fit.

Training classes are really useful for a first dog. We probably have spent more on training (including boarding with trainers) than everything else for this dog. Attending them together (and then practicing skills together at home) really helps get all the humans on the same page about how they're communicating with the dog, which makes the dog's job a lot easier.

On the bright side, if your parents are up to the challenge an active dog can be great for their health--it's an automatic incentive to get daily physical activity, an unending project (especially if they get involved with any kind of dog sport like agility or herding), and of course added companionship.


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## swarfrat (Nov 25, 2021)

It really comes down to energy, temperament and trainability.

Are your parents trainable? Are they willing to learn what it takes to care for this kind of dog? Do they have the temperament to put the dog's needs ahead of theirs when it really counts? Do they have the energy to keep it up for the lifetime of the dog?




Luftmensch said:


> ....So while the farm is a great 'backyard'... you will still need to enrich the dogs experience by playing/walking with them daily. This gives the dog something meaningful to do _and_ is a part of forming a bond and establishing good behaviour.



This, big time. You can't just expect a highly energetic, working, pack animal to be OK with just being in a big space on its own. It needs to be with its pack and it needs to have a purpose or it will make one up.

Have a friend who always has Aussies, but never has the energy to keep up with them. Wonderfully sweet dogs. They destroy every house she's ever had.

I know a family who believed simply having a farm for a dog to run around in was enough. Their sheepdog found its purpose destroying things and killing chickens.


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## timebard (Nov 25, 2021)

swarfrat said:


> It really comes down to energy, temperament and trainability.
> 
> Are your parents trainable? Are they willing to learn what it takes to care for this kind of dog? Do they have the temperament to put the dog's needs ahead of theirs when it really counts? Do they have the energy to keep it up for the lifetime of the dog?
> 
> ...



If your parents farm has chickens or other fowl, definitely consider this. A couple I know raises turkeys on their property and their Aussie and heeler recently killed the majority of their flock (and they do give their dogs plenty of exercise).


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## Delat (Nov 25, 2021)

timebard said:


> On the bright side, if your parents are up to the challenge an active dog can be great for their health--it's an automatic incentive to get daily physical activity, an unending project (especially if they get involved with any kind of dog sport like agility or herding), and of course added companionship.



Definitely this. I groan and moan some days but the bike riding and jogging are as much for me as the dog. Sadly while they seem to have her Olympic-fit I still feel like Al Bundy on the couch.


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## Brieuc (Nov 25, 2021)

I think we all agree that having a dog. And a great dog of course. Is a big responsability. Our decision is taken. My parents are maybe not ready but whatever ??? Life is done with complicated decisions. I think everybody will be happy at the end (except the cat :'^(). And if there is a pb i will take the dog and we will chose another one smaller for my parents. I need a pointing dog but i never had a dog. Maybe this new dog will train me or whatever. As someone said upper we will adapt. It's how we are made as influenced by the new than the old. I think i influenced my parents with my taste and sensitivity as much as they influenced me. That's all. So don't worry all. 

And for the chicken good chicken is made with high fence we got a lot of fox in french brittany so it won't change anything.


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## lane (Nov 26, 2021)

Sounds like you may have already gotten the dog. I own three Aussies at the moment and have owned Aussies for thirty years. There's a lot of missed information and a lot of inaccurate lore about Aussies on the internet. Here are a few points I'd suggest you consider:

1. Yes, very active. They really need walks, play, active engagement. It's more mental than physical, for the most part. Set up a small agility course (you can easily make the jumps, ramps, and stuff yourself) and without having to walk miles yourself, you can get your Aussie worn out. Even nose-work (scents in little bandaid boxes or the like) teach them to follow instructions (and thus learn obedience) and also demand a lot of emotional attention which will tire them out and also keep them sharp and alert. 

2. I would recommend going to an AKC breeder. First, I'd go to any AKC show (listed at infodog.com/show and follow people backstage from the ring to wherever they are grooming and keeping their dogs. Find the Aussies (they'll typically be clustered together) and ask for some recommendations. If you get three or four people suggesting the same breeder, you should be talking to a good one. Now AKC Aussie breeders are very diligent about protecting their breed so you don't have the same kind of problems you have in other breeds with inbreeding. These dogs are basically ranch yard mutts to begin with and have very diverse genetics that breeders actually try to preserve. All pedigrees are on the internet and Aussie breeders are careful not to perpetuate any of the issues that do come up in all dogs from time to time and that Aussies can be subject to: epilepsy, blindness, and deafness for the most part. There's one significant genetic issue to check in Aussies called MDR-1, a failure in the molecular barrier to the brain that allows toxic compounds to build up in the brain. The genetics are well known and you can get an $85 test from Washington State University's vet school to test your own dog (and you should do it). It means you have to protect your dog from ivermectin, most chemotherapeutic cancer drugs, Imodium, and the like. It's a pretty big list of drugs and they are deadly or can cause irreversible brain damage. MDR-1 comes basically from crossing a merle to a merle. The puppies usually show an inordinate amount of white but that's not always the case, so be sure you know the pedigree (always want a tri crossed with tri or a tri crossed with a merle). And get the genetic test. lf you have a MDR-1 negative puppy, you have nothing to worry about. If you have a heterozygous MDR-1 (one normal and one defective gene) you can pass it on to offspring and the dog is at least partially susceptible to all these drugs. You can google "MDR-1" and get the test and a lot of information on it at the WSU web site. 

3. Aussies do sometimes get hemangiosarcoma, a very fast-growing and uncontrollable cancer of the lining of blood vessels. Aussies are generally quite healthy with limited cancers and other illnesses, but google hemangiosarcoma and learn about it. If your adult dog ever seems weak, immediately check its gums -- if they are pale and not rich pink, the dog is bleeding inside. The dogs recover within an hour or so, so you have to watch out for it. But if it happens, be prepared to act fast and get your dog to a vet. 

4. People who say they are not AKC and breeding at home are often how puppy mills now sell dogs. The mills have families raise and sell the dogs without saying where they're from. Puppy mill dogs and dogs from uninformed breeders very often have MDR-1 (around half of all Aussies have at least one copy of the gene, if not two). So be careful of this.

5. Aussie puppies tend to slow down after about three years of age. Until then they can be pretty crazy and occasionally destructive. All these problems typically go away if you give them enough of a workout, whether mental or physical. And they are amazing and wonderfully intelligent dogs to have -- mine understand hundreds of words of human vocabulary, can figure out all kinds of things, and are the most loving dogs I've ever known.


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## NotAddictedYet (Nov 26, 2021)

lane said:


> I would recommend going to an AKC breeder.



Think OP is in France, but the point about finding sanctioned dog shows and find reputable breeder there stands.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 26, 2021)

lane said:


> There's a lot of missed information and a lot of inaccurate lore about Aussies on the internet.



Just to add... Fun fact... the Australian Shepherd isnt an 'Australian' dog... Somewhere down their lineage they might be. You dont see them down here. If you did, you'd be forgiven for thinking they were a collie mixer. There are lots of Border Collie here.

Ignoring the OG Aussie dog, the Dingo, popular breeds are Blue Heelers (cattle dog) and Kelpies. These dogs are also high energy, working animals.


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## lane (Nov 27, 2021)

They aren't Australian at all. They were bred in the southwestern United States to work with Australian cowboys on American ranches. 

Aussies differ from other herding dogs in one important way that's great for their use as a pet. Most herding dogs are bred to take a flock of sheep off a couple moors away and tend them for a few days. Aussies are different. They were bred to work right with a horseman so he didn't have to get off his horse as much. Aussies work within fifty feet of a horseman for the most part, taking orders and sticking close to the cowboy. I took my middle Aussie (now turning six) out most weekends to help move cattle for other ranchers who didn't have good dogs. She'd make $250-500 for a day's herding work. We also did some long cattle drives, including one with nine hundred longhorns from Fort Worth to Kansas City -- about 640 miles up the old Chisholm Trail. Mornings were pretty quiet so she'd jump up on the rump of my horse and ride behind me on a saddle blanket. When I was sleeping on the trail in a blanket roll, she'd snuggle right up next to me. These are pretty amazing dogs.


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## Nemo (Nov 27, 2021)

lane said:


> They aren't Australian at all. They were bred in the southwestern United States to work with Australian cowboys on American ranches.
> 
> Aussies differ from other herding dogs in one important way that's great for their use as a pet. Most herding dogs are bred to take a flock of sheep off a couple moors away and tend them for a few days. Aussies are different. They were bred to work right with a horseman so he didn't have to get off his horse as much. Aussies work within fifty feet of a horseman for the most part, taking orders and sticking close to the cowboy. I took my middle Aussie (now turning six) out most weekends to help move cattle for other ranchers who didn't have good dogs. She'd make $250-500 for a day's herding work. We also did some long cattle drives, including one with nine hundred longhorns from Fort Worth to Kansas City -- about 640 miles up the old Chisholm Trail. Mornings were pretty quiet so she'd jump up on the rump of my horse and ride behind me on a saddle blanket. When I was sleeping on the trail in a blanket roll, she'd snuggle right up next to me. These are pretty amazing dogs.


This is interesting but it makes sense.

My impression is that most working sheepdogs in Australia are Kelpies followed by Border Collies. Kelpies are closely related to Border Collies, even though they do not look very similar.

As @Luftmensch said, blue (and red) heelers are also common, but often used as cattle dogs rather than sheep dogs. And IME not nearly as clever as the Kelpies and Border Collies.

FWIW, I don't think I have ever seen an Australian Shepherd in the flesh.


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## MrHiggins (Nov 27, 2021)

lane said:


> They aren't Australian at all. They were bred in the southwestern United States to work with Australian cowboys on American ranches.
> 
> Aussies differ from other herding dogs in one important way that's great for their use as a pet. Most herding dogs are bred to take a flock of sheep off a couple moors away and tend them for a few days. Aussies are different. They were bred to work right with a horseman so he didn't have to get off his horse as much. Aussies work within fifty feet of a horseman for the most part, taking orders and sticking close to the cowboy. I took my middle Aussie (now turning six) out most weekends to help move cattle for other ranchers who didn't have good dogs. She'd make $250-500 for a day's herding work. We also did some long cattle drives, including one with nine hundred longhorns from Fort Worth to Kansas City -- about 640 miles up the old Chisholm Trail. Mornings were pretty quiet so she'd jump up on the rump of my horse and ride behind me on a saddle blanket. When I was sleeping on the trail in a blanket roll, she'd snuggle right up next to me. These are pretty amazing dogs.



Lane, that's a great post. It's my understanding that what we know of as the "Australian Shepherd" is a purely American breed, but is adapted from a dog used in the Basque Country (so it should be right at home in France). Indeed, there's a certain group of folks in the US that are starting a breed called the "Basque Shepherd" which is basically an Aussie with a full tail (not bobbed or docked). 

From my data point of one, I can concur that the Aussie is not only a great working dog, but is also well suited as a family pet. I did work hard on teaching good in-home manners, though. Here's my Aussie playing veterinarian with my 1-year-old daughter. He was super gentle. The old people at my grandma's nursing home loved him, too, because he was so calm around them.







That said, my new border collie comes from some very impressive herding lines out if Ireland and, if he weren't primarily a family pet, could probably be very successful with sheep. He is a VERY hard charger when he wants to be. But, with hard work, mutual respect, and clear expectations, my BC is turning into an excellent pet. 

Here he is as I type this. Waiting for his morning exercise, but being cool about it... 






Here he is with some sheep...









Point is, good training makes a good dog.


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## Delat (Nov 27, 2021)

lane said:


> They aren't Australian at all. They were bred in the southwestern United States to work with Australian cowboys on American ranches.
> 
> Aussies differ from other herding dogs in one important way that's great for their use as a pet. Most herding dogs are bred to take a flock of sheep off a couple moors away and tend them for a few days. Aussies are different. They were bred to work right with a horseman so he didn't have to get off his horse as much. Aussies work within fifty feet of a horseman for the most part, taking orders and sticking close to the cowboy. I took my middle Aussie (now turning six) out most weekends to help move cattle for other ranchers who didn't have good dogs. She'd make $250-500 for a day's herding work. We also did some long cattle drives, including one with nine hundred longhorns from Fort Worth to Kansas City -- about 640 miles up the old Chisholm Trail. Mornings were pretty quiet so she'd jump up on the rump of my horse and ride behind me on a saddle blanket. When I was sleeping on the trail in a blanket roll, she'd snuggle right up next to me. These are pretty amazing dogs.



Do their paws get torn up on those long drives? Or are they adapted for it as part of the breed characteristics? 

Very cool story btw, thanks for sharing.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 28, 2021)

Nemo said:


> As @Luftmensch said, blue (and red) heelers are also common, but often used as cattle dogs rather than sheep dogs. And IME not nearly as clever as the Kelpies and Border Collies.



Compared to Kelpies, I think heelers are relatively more independent and stubborn. I dont know this means less intelligent? They might just be more willful and difficult to control in some situations - depending on their training??

As for Border Collies...I'd believe they are top of the heap! Arent they supposed to be the smartest breed?




lane said:


> Aussies are different. They were bred to work right with a horseman so he didn't have to get off his horse as much. Aussies work within fifty feet of a horseman for the most part, taking orders and sticking close to the cowboy.



I don't mean to speak out of turn here... but wouldn't an aspect of this behaviour be down to training? Border collies and kelpies are nominally 'sheep dogs'... and heelers are nominally 'cattle dogs'. Border collies instinctually work at a distance 'eyeing' a herd. This works well with sheep. Heelers naturally work close to the herd and are 'nippy'. This is better for cattle. They will all take instruction from a distance. While they all have their natural tendencies, they are smart enough to be trained to work on different livestock.

Colonial Australia has a long history of cattle droving. This would have been done on horseback... Now of course there are helicopters and motorbikes/quads. I am speaking way outside my area of knowledge here... but I get the sense that the agricultural community cares about good dogs more than they do about breeds. Some of the animals out there look like they have a lot of hybrid vigour 

Some modern cattle droving in Oz:







Delat said:


> Do their paws get torn up on those long drives? Or are they adapted for it as part of the breed characteristics?



Total guess: there is probably some element of their paws adapting through exposure. I rather suspect that any breed that was raised to muster on green pastures (e.g. sheep) would get sore feet if you ran them that hard on an arid cattle run.


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## lane (Nov 28, 2021)

To questions and comments above: First, I've owned and trained border collies, Aussies, Australian heelers, and various mixed breeds. They're all very smart dogs, but the one breed with by far the best human interface and trainability is the Aussie. When they can't herd they get to do agility and other work and that's where Aussies really stand out from the pack. I wouldn't dismiss the intelligence of any of these dogs -- these active herders are the top of the heap when it comes to dogs.

Within a breed, some dogs immediately gravitate to a skill (such as herding) and others look for something else (same as people). When I pick a puppy, I put the whole litter (at about 7-8 weeks of age) in a corral with a few dairy cows. Aussie litters are big so I start usually with 8-9 puppies. Of those perhaps three will be scared of the cattle and back away. A couple will just be indifferent. And three usually will just walk right up to the cows, go nose to nose, and back the cows around the corral. That's a three pound puppy moving a 1800 pound dairy cow. There's lots of instinct there. The good ones I barely have to do anything. They know how to move cattle without nipping or barking, they get my voice commands without training, and even understand how to move cattle around so they're always on fresh grazing. The ones that don't get it right away are generally trainable with minimal effort but don't display quite the same instincts. I've had eleven Aussies over thirty years and four have been amazing instinctive herders. I've had a few that never got the idea but were outstanding at agility and at various intelligence exercises such as nose work. You may not get a herder if you're not really focusing on that in choosing a dog, but you'll typically get a dog that has great skills and you just have to find what they want to do. They all will be underfoot all the time -- if I go into the kitchen I currently have three dogs literally underfoot, if I go out to the car they are all lined up for a drive, and so on. They typically won't be more than a few feet away.

As for paws, I always tend their paws every evening after a lot of work and I've never had one go lame. They have a lot of hair between their toes and their hair doesn't pick up burs or grit easily (Aussies tend to stay very clean and rarely get smelly even when out in the rain and running in brush for days). I do always have booties just in case, but I can only think of one instance where I ever had to use them and that was in some pretty extreme cold, not because of foot injury. A good Aussie doesn't get overuse injuries (like hip failure) or the like, and most of this class of herding dogs (heelers, borders, and so on) can run twenty miles a day once they're used to it.

As for the Basque thing, many of the southwestern US ranchers who popularized Aussies were immigrants from northern Spain, so the Basque angle stuck. Now I do crop the tails on my Aussies; it's done within a few days of birth and it's just a piece of cartilage with no nerves, so the puppies don't even notice it happening. People think it's being cruel to the dogs but they are completely unaware and not in pain. A vet does it with a pair of clippers and no anesthesia or painkillers. Those who feel it's cruel like to preserve the idea of stub tails -- a litter of Aussies will mostly be tailless but some will have a vestige of a tail with two or three vertebra or even a full fan tail. The stub tail looks a bit like a boxer tail. I don't like the tails because when out working the tails get stuff caught in them that irritates the dog, plus they often break their tails while herding. It's up to you whether you crop yours. I prefer the cropped look and I've watched enough tails get docked to know there's no discomfort and no downside to doing so.


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## MrHiggins (Nov 28, 2021)

Delat said:


> Do their paws get torn up on those long drives? Or are they adapted for it as part of the breed characteristics?



My Aussie's paws were indestructible. For a lot of his life, we lived in a mountain town in Colorado and I was an avid trail runner/hiker/backcountry skier. He never slowed down.

My Border Collie has much more sensitive feet. We were on a run the other day and came across a section of jagged rocks. "No thanks!" he said and just sat down. I had to carry him. Wuss. 

I think it has a lot to do with breeding. The Aussie is built for the harsh ground of the American West (think rocks, cactus, 140 degree sand, etc...). The BC is more acclimated to the Bonnie fells and dales of grassy Scotland. 

On a different note, I don't think either breed can get cold. Their coats are made for ****** weather. My Aussie preferred to sleep outside, even if we got a foot of snow.


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## lane (Nov 28, 2021)

MrHiggins said:


> My Aussie's paws were indestructible. For a lot of his life, we lived in a mountain town in Colorado and I was an avid trail runner/hiker/backcountry skier. He never slowed down.
> 
> My Border Collie has much more sensitive feet. We were on a run the other day and came across a section of jagged rocks. "No thanks!" he said and just sat down. I had to carry him. Wuss.
> 
> ...



Definitely agree. My Aussies can run in 115 degree heat with no problem as long as they get plenty of water, and then can easily handle nights that go down to freezing, and they do fine overnight on winter nights into the teens. They are very sturdy dogs. Mine have run over a couple miles of bare fractured flint with no problems. 

Foxtails do affect Aussies -- these are seed pods from certain grasses that are arrow shaped and have tiny barbs. They work their way in and don't back out, so they can end up completely embedded under the skin. They also can end up inside a nose or mouth or even eye. This isn't an Aussie problem -- they do this to all dogs -- but you do need to recognize foxtails when you see them and check your dog for them. Just like checking for ticks. In both cases, getting them out immediately is the key and can save a vet visit.


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## LostHighway (Nov 28, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> ... but I get the sense that the agricultural community cares about good dogs more than they do about breeds. Some of the animals out there look like they have a lot of hybrid vigour



The whole "breed" question is rather fraught. Most breeds are a relatively modern invention, prior to the 18th & 19th C it came down more to types of dogs (herder, guard dog, hunting dog(s), cart dog, vermin slayer, lap dog,...) rather than breeds are they are currently characterized. While some breeds have relatively ancient origins a number of breeds are products of the late 19th and early 20th C (German Shepherds to name just one). The umbrella FCI and the various national breed organizations like the AKC in the USA, (ANKC in Australia, SCC in France,...) have done some excellent work in defining and preserving breeds but the notion of conformation and the dog shows circuit, coupled with media driven breed popularity, have also done some real harm. Many of the brachycephalic breeds like English Bulldogs or Pugs suffer from problems resulting from breeders taking the flat face too far. The fashion for narrow, wedge-shaped skulls among Collie breeders have bred in a separate set of problems. There often is a divergence between working dog lines and show lines of the same breed. On top of this as @lane noted above breeds are not monolithic, individual dogs within a specific breed can vary greatly in intelligence and temperament. 

I think one can reasonably argue that working herding dogs in Australia and North America were selected, at least in part, for their ability to work in often hotter and drier condition and over longer distances than were the norm in Europe.


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## lane (Nov 28, 2021)

LostHighway said:


> The whole "breed" question is rather fraught. Most breeds are a relatively modern invention, prior to the 18th & 19th C it came down more to types of dogs (herder, guard dog, cart dog, vermin slayer, lap dog,...) rather than breeds are they are currently characterized. While some breeds have relatively ancient origins a number of breeds are products of the late 19th and early 20th C (German Shepherds to name just one). The umbrella FCI and the various national breed organizations like the AKC in the USA, (ANKC in Australia, SCC in France,...) have done some excellent work in defining and preserving breeds but the notion of conformation and the dog shows circuit, coupled with media driven breed popularity, have also done some real harm. Many of the brachycephalic breeds like English Bulldogs or Pugs suffer from problems resulting from breeders taking the flat face too far. The fashion for narrow, wedge-shaped skulls among Collie breeders have bred in a separate set of problems. There often is a divergence between working dog lines and show lines of the same breed. On top of this as @lane noted above breeds are not monolithic, individual dogs within a specific breed can vary greatly in intelligence and temperament.
> 
> I think one can reasonably argue that working herding dogs in Australia and North America were selected, at least in part, for their ability to work in often hotter and drier condition and over longer distances than were the norm in Europe



Definitely true in many breeds. Aussies were only very recently admitted to the AKC. As a result, the breed is really governed more by the Australian Shepherd Association of America (ASCA) and the US Australian Shepherd Association. And predictably nearly all Aussies worldwide tend to be tied to American roots. These two associations, plus Aussie breeders, have worked hard to avoid blighted conformation rules and to limit inappropriate breedings. The AKC refused to recognize Aussies for decades because they viewed them as a mixed breed, and indeed they are still very heterogeneous genetically. That's one of their strengths and responsible AKC breeders are careful about keeping their lines diverse. There's a very loose AKC conformation standard for Aussies -- a wide range of size (plus both minis and miniatures get their own classes), four different color ways (red tri, black tri, blue merle, red merle, all of which can have enormous variety), all kinds of different eye colors, different builds, and so on. It's all a concerted effort to keep the breed healthy. Aussies are one of the most distinctive breeds despite all the variety, and that's helping ASCA and USASA keep a lot of influence over the health of the breed.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 28, 2021)

LostHighway said:


> The whole "breed" question is rather fraught. Most breeds are a relatively modern invention, prior to the 18th & 19th C it came down more to types of dogs (herder, guard dog, hunting dog(s), cart dog, vermin slayer, lap dog,...) rather than breeds are they are currently characterized. While some breeds have relatively ancient origins a number of breeds are products of the late 19th and early 20th C (German Shepherds to name just one).



It is fraught!

Even though German Shepherds are a relatively recent breed... they have been ruined in that short time! I read that German Shepherds were originally bred to be working dogs and had a normal flat back. In the past century pedigree dogs have been bred to conform to standards with heavily sloped backs. This exacerbates hip dysplasia - which is less of a problem for working German shepherds that are not bred to conform to those awful raked backs.

A little bit off topic... but Siamese cats used to be gorgeous _cats_... now some of them have faces that look like ugly bats!




LostHighway said:


> I think one can reasonably argue that working herding dogs in Australia and North America were selected, at least in part, for their ability to work in often hotter and drier condition and over longer distances than were the norm in Europe.



Legend has it that both Kelpies and Blue heelers were crossed with Dingos in their distant past. A recent study asserts that Kelpies have no detectable Dingo DNA. I dont know if such a study has been done on Blue heelers? On the one hand, the oral/documented history of crossing dogs with Dingos appeals to the idea of breeding animals for local conditions... on the other... given the Kelpie study, it would be neat to have a DNA study verify that for Blueys!

By the way... it is legal to own a Dingo in NSW... wouldnt recommend it...


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## lane (Nov 28, 2021)

There's a tendency to hit on breeders over breed health issues. A few breeds were notoriously mismanaged -- German shepherds, Irish Setters, several of the pug nosed breeds, and soon. Both the AKC and many of the breeds learned the lesson quickly and have worked to protect their dogs. Among Aussies, there's a global breeding database and also most breeders submit DNA samples for future studies. A foundation manages this work and also raises money to fund research in the few diseases that do afflict Aussies. These dogs still have to work and as such as part of their spec, so they won't be mis-bred like Germans or some of the hunting dogs. 

I wouldn't drift this conversation away from the discussion about Aussies because other breed problems aren't an issue for the OP here. Suffice it to say that Aussie genetics are carefully monitored by AKC breeders and as long as you don't go to some puppy mill or to a couple or farm that distributes puppy mill dogs, you'll generally do well.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 30, 2021)

All this talk of herders reminds me of childhood in Virginia. We had Collies. All our relatives lived
around us. 

Must have been around 4 or 5. Walking to kindergarten taught by one of my aunt's. I was surrounded by another uncle's fox hunting hounds. They were snarling at me. Our collie Patsy ran to my rescue barking furious at my side at that pack of hounds. You don't forget 
those experiences. My father told my uncle to keep those damn dogs pinned up. After I was living in Hawaii was told the story that my uncle Jeff when he got old & senile would go out & sleep with his hounds. My aunt said I knew that old coot would rather sleep with his dogs than me.


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## Brieuc (Jan 10, 2022)

Luftmensch said:


> Just to add... Fun fact... the Australian Shepherd isnt an 'Australian' dog... Somewhere down their lineage they might be. You dont see them down here. If you did, you'd be forgiven for thinking they were a collie mixer. There are lots of Border Collie here.
> 
> Ignoring the OG Aussie dog, the Dingo, popular breeds are Blue Heelers (cattle dog) and Kelpies. These dogs are also high energy, working animals.


Aussie are from Basque Country that's what they said. So maybe it got a french origine. But the merle is from the Coley origin


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## Brieuc (Jan 10, 2022)

Hey Everyone. I forgot this thread for a moment sorry. But i have very godd news about the dog. He is incredible... so can I introduce you to Sinaï.


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## Brieuc (Jan 10, 2022)

MrHiggins said:


> Lane, that's a great post. It's my understanding that what we know of as the "Australian Shepherd" is a purely American breed, but is adapted from a dog used in the Basque Country (so it should be right at home in France). Indeed, there's a certain group of folks in the US that are starting a breed called the "Basque Shepherd" which is basically an Aussie with a full tail (not bobbed or docked).
> 
> From my data point of one, I can concur that the Aussie is not only a great working dog, but is also well suited as a family pet. I did work hard on teaching good in-home manners, though. Here's my Aussie playing veterinarian with my 1-year-old daughter. He was super gentle. The old people at my grandma's nursing home loved him, too, because he was so calm around them.
> 
> ...



Border Collie and Aussie are almost the same. We have a veriety in france called American Shepherd it is a small Aussie what do we know about its character ?


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