# Gesshin Uraku, what's the steel?



## Pdksays

So I recently bought a new gesshin uraku gyuto, definitely become my workhorse in the kitchen I work in, it sharpens pretty easily and stays sharp for quite a while. Overall I'm extremely satisfied with my purchase and I was wondering if anyone knew the steel type and hardness number? The JKI website isn't super explicit with the specs.


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## Baby Huey

From what I read on the website they offer his work in 3 metals. Stainless, SKD 11, and White #2. It depends on which one you got. Grats on your new knife btw.


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## MowgFace

I dont think the type of steel is common knowledge. If i were to make a guess, id probably say AUS-10, as he mentioned the Gonbei AUS-10 series is supposed to be a western equivalent to the Gesshin Uraku series.


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## Timthebeaver

Baby Huey said:


> From what I read on the website they offer his work in 3 metals. Stainless, SKD 11, and White #2. It depends on which one you got. Grats on your new knife btw.



???

Yoshihiro definitely offer more steel types than that, although I have never seen a knife explicitly stated as SKD11 knife from them.

I believe the knife is a molybdenum stainless at around RC60. Far more importantly however, is that it's good stuff.


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## Pdksays

It's the stainless 240mm wa-gyuto, if that helps determine the steel type


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## Baby Huey

Timthebeaver said:


> ???
> 
> Yoshihiro definitely offer more steel types than that, although I have never seen a knife explicitly stated as SKD11 knife from them.
> 
> I believe the knife is a molybdenum stainless at around RC60. Far more importantly however, is that it's good stuff.




http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/gesshin-1/gesshin-uraku/gesshin-uraku-165mm-skdsantoku.html

There are only 3 metals listed on his product line available for purchase here, but I do not doubt as an accomplished blacksmith that he does not use other metals.


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## Crothcipt

I know my nikari I have on pass a round is skd steel. John didn't have a # with it that I remember.


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## JBroida

Gesshin Uraku is a brand name... not a blacksmiths name. Similar to shigefusa, yoshihiro, sakaki takayuki, kikuichi, and more. We have hand picked the kinds of things we want in our line, along with the kind of fit and finish we want and so on. As far as the steels go, i share info about them when it helps better understand the product. When it gets in the way, i dont talk about it. As was mentioned above, i do compare our gonbei aus-10 to our gesshin uraku stainess... they are very similar feeling and performing... but that doesnt mean they are the same steel. And our gesshin uraku stainless series are ~60hrc.


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## Timthebeaver

Crothcipt said:


> I know my nikari I have on pass a round is skd steel. John didn't have a # with it that I remember.



My mistake, I had forgotten about the sanmai SKD nakiri/santoku


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## Baby Huey

JBroida said:


> Gesshin Uraku is a brand name... not a blacksmiths name. Similar to shigefusa, yoshihiro, sakaki takayuki, kikuichi, and more.



Was referring to Yoshihiro. I am fairly new but have been very interested for awhile and kinda studying lol. Thanks for the info though. It shed a lot of light on the question.


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## Lefty

Steel type only matters in that you can't make a great knife out of a tin can. Jon sells it, therefore the steel performs.


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## bikehunter

JBroida said:


> As far as the steels go, i share info about them when it helps better understand the product. When it gets in the way, i dont talk about it. As was mentioned above,



How exactly, would knowing more about the steel in a knife you paid for, "get in the way?" In the way of what?


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## Baby Huey

bikehunter said:


> How exactly, would knowing more about the steel in a knife you paid for, "get in the way?"



Consider it kinda like a trade secret. Giving out too much info allows for people to attempt to reproduce it and compete with you. At least it makes sense to me. Have certain clearance levels at certain sites that I work at due to trade secret issues.


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## DevinT

bikehunter said:


> How exactly, would knowing more about the steel in a knife you paid for, "get in the way?" In the way of what?



When it's more about the heat treatment and not the grade of steel.

Hoss


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## JBroida

or when just the info about the steel doesnt really speak to the particular qualities of a steel/heat treat combo. This is why i try to talk to people about the qualitative properties of these knives more than just steel type and hrc. When people become too obsessed with just steel type and hrc, it gets in the way of understanding what the knife is all about.

Devin's made a great point here... consider this. No one really talked about aeb-l before larrin and devin started on it. All of the sudden, everyone and their mother is using aeb-l saying how its such a great steel, and the ht is always great. The truth is that aeb-l is not such a special steel. Its a relatively simple, not crazy high carbon steel that can take on a wide variety of properties depending on how it is forged, ht, and ground. What devin does is different from others, but because he does a great job, aeb-l now has quite a few fans. I've tried quite a few recent aeb-l knives... some just flat out suck, while others are ok, and even fewer are good (there are even fewer that i think are great). Just knowing a knife is aeb-l will not help you understand more about the knife. Using the knife and seeing how it sharpens, holds up, the kind of edge it takes, etc., will tell you more than almost anything else you can do.

I dont always share steel types because i'd rather have a discussion about how a particular line sharpens, holds up, responds to certain tasks, etc. Its also my excuse to make sure i've used as many different things as possible (and all of the things we sell).


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## bikehunter

DevinT said:


> When it's more about the heat treatment and not the grade of steel.
> 
> Hoss



Ahh...how stupid of me not to realize that it's too esoteric for the likes of us ordinary folks. <g>


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## DevinT

The heat treatment of any steel can affect the way a steel or knife performs. A heat treatment should be geared to the type of knife that is made or manufactured. The steel grade is only the beginning. Wasn't trying to offend anyone.

Hoss


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## Ruso

Usually it's secret when the steel type is considered to be mediocre or not cool ATM like AUS-8 type. AUS-8 is considered to be a mediocre stainless steel by knife enthusiasts/nuts and if you google it, you will find ppl recommending other alternatives.
I can understand that this information can scare the customer and he will miss on a great knife and the vendor on a sale.
Having this in consideration, it does not matter a lot if you buy from respectable vendor, like Jon for example and you ask all the right questions. In case I buy from an unknown/shady vendor this is something I would like to know. And most likely I will let the opportunity pass if such info is not available. 

P.S. Note, I said usually in the beginning. That means often but not all the time


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## brainsausage

bikehunter said:


> Ahh...how stupid of me not to realize that it's too esoteric for the likes of us ordinary folks. <g>



By esoteric, do you mean 'lack of understanding'? There should be no judgement if in that is the case. Just another chance to learn...


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## bikehunter

brainsausage said:


> By esoteric, do you mean 'lack of understanding'? There should be no judgement if in that is the case. Just another chance to learn...



I was thinking in terms of " meant for the select few" . I try not to miss a chance to learn. Which is why I question those who seem to want to keep insider info to themselves. Shrug


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## labor of love

ive handled some real mediocre aeb-l knives. not just the poorly made sub $100 ones, but a few over $300 i was also dissappointed with. Pdksays, so the uraku sharpens easy and holds an edge well? good to know.


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## brainsausage

bikehunter said:


> I was thinking in terms of " meant for the select few" . I try not to miss a chance to learn. Which is why I question those who seem to want to keep insider info to themselves. Shrug



I'm not sure that that's the case here. but if you are interested in learning, more questions may be more conducive to learning, rather than making snarky comments...


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## bikehunter

brainsausage said:


> I'm not sure that that's the case here. but if you are interested in learning, more questions may be more conducive to learning, rather than making snarky comments...



You mean like the one above? LOL


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## labor of love

not revealing the steel type really shouldnt be seen as a disservice here. i kinda wish all makers stopped revealing steel types, that away we(myself included) would stop getting hung up on them. i feel like like we often prejudge a knifes performance based on its steel. and we shouldnt.


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## Ruso

labor of love said:


> not revealing the steel type really shouldnt be seen as a disservice here. i kinda wish all makers stopped revealing steel types, that away we(myself included) would stop getting hung up on them. i feel like like we often prejudge a knifes performance based on its steel. and we shouldnt.



And we should buy the knives via infomercials.... You can not possible test drive all the knifes buy. The more information available the better - Ignorance is not a cure of prejudice.


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## labor of love

ignorance? not so much, the unimportant information is more and more often being touted as prevalent. i have no idea what steel is in shigafusa, kato, misono swedish, gesshin ginga and others i have purchased,i dont see the need to know. i dont want the bias that sometimes comes with steel stypes.


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## chinacats

Ruso said:


> And we should buy the knives via infomercials.... You can not possible test drive all the knifes buy. The more information available the better - Ignorance is not a cure of prejudice.



I disagree, the first J-knife I ever bought was White 2 and it sucked. Sorry ht, even more sorry grind and not impressive in the any way. One of the last knives I bought was White 2 and I love it. Had I judged by steel, I wouldn't have bought the second knife. In this case the ignorant thing to do would have been to judge the knife by it's steel...

As an aside, it really is worth looking at AEB-L on Gator's site; as Jon mentioned it is not impressive when compared to many other steels used around these parts.


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## brainsausage

bikehunter said:


> You mean like the one above? LOL



That's not snark. Just an observation. Doesnt mean I'm right or vice versa.


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## bikehunter

brainsausage said:


> That's not snark. Just an observation. Doesnt mean I'm right or vice versa.



I'm cool with that.


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## Keith Sinclair

Maybe too simplistic,but once trained I can raise a burr heal to tip on first pass wt. the Uraku to me that is a sign of good stainless.I sharpen alot of cheap stainless deff. harder to sharpen & dull easy compared to the Uraku.For the coin I think it is a solid buy.


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## Ruso

labor of love said:


> ignorance? not so much, the unimportant information is more and more often being touted as prevalent. i have no idea what steel is in shigafusa, kato, misono swedish, gesshin ginga and others i have purchased,i dont see the need to know. i dont want the bias that sometimes comes with steel stypes.



You do not see one, it does not mean it should not be present. Some people do no need to know the size of the engine of the car... so what now, lets hide this information? You are bias with the steel type because there are not enough info. Vendors should provide more information instead of less. 



> I disagree, the first J-knife I ever bought was White 2 and it sucked. Sorry ht, even more sorry grind and not impressive in the any way. One of the last knives I bought was White 2 and I love it. Had I judged by steel, I wouldn't have bought the second knife. In this case the ignorant thing to do would have been to judge the knife by it's steel...



Same point as above, there should be more information present.
Hiding information is barely and rarely if ever a solution.


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## jgraeff

Looks guys there is nothing wrong with not disclosing the steel type. Jon has to protect his products or everyone will be selling them. Plus everyone who has ever shopped at JKI knows he only sells quality products! 

Also I have been testing knives for a few years now and I can tell you the heat treat is much more important than the steel type. I have received multiple knives that I thought were all different steel, wrong just different heat treats. They all performed wildly different! 

If much more informational to talk about how a particular knife performs rather than the steel overall, I can agree it may be nice to know, however if will not really benefit you in anyway.


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## DevinT

Another story about steel..........Spyderco knife company did some testing on two knives made from the same grade of steel with the same heat treatment that they did themselves. The steel was made at two different steel mills in two different countries. One performed quite well and the other performed quite badly. This is a big part of the reason that makers in Japan stick to one steel from one supplier. That's also the reason why they forge, so that they can control the condition of the steel going into heat treating. 

Bob Dozier has the same philosophy, although he does not forge, he buys his D-2 from only one source and tests each batch to make sure it meets his standards, when it doesn't he sends it back. Bob will not disclose his heat treat or the source of his steel because other makers using the same recipe sometimes have very different results.

It seems kind of silly to keep things a secrete, until you get burned a couple of times.

Hoss


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## mhlee

Ruso said:


> You do not see one, it does not mean it should not be present. Some people do no need to know the size of the engine of the car... so what now, lets hide this information? You are bias with the steel type because there are not enough info. Vendors should provide more information instead of less.
> 
> 
> 
> Same point as above, there should be more information present.
> Hiding information is barely and rarely if ever a solution.



Would you publicly share your trade secrets, intellectual property, proprietary research, information that gives you a competitive advantage, etc.?


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## Timthebeaver

jgraeff said:


> Looks guys there is nothing wrong with not disclosing the steel type. *Jon has to protect his products or everyone will be selling them.* Plus everyone who has ever shopped at JKI knows he only sells quality products!



This. Anyone who argues otherwise simply doesn't understand business, or more pertinently, appreciate the amount of time, effort and money the best retailers invest in sourcing, selecting and developing their products. If you're new here, you won't be aware that the most knowledgeable folk here have been burned in the past regarding others profiting from their efforts.


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## brainsausage

Timthebeaver said:


> This. Anyone who argues otherwise simply doesn't understand business, or more pertinently, appreciate the amount of time, effort and money the best retailers invest in sourcing, selecting and developing their products. If you're new here, you won't be aware that the most knowledgeable folk here have been burned in the past regarding others profiting from their efforts.



Yup.


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## mzer

mhlee said:


> Would you publicly share your trade secrets, intellectual property, proprietary research, information that gives you a competitive advantage, etc.?



I think this misses the point completely. Not only is the level of intellectual property and research rather small, perhaps insignificant, but also the steel that the knife is made out of really isn't a trade secret since it is fully testable by anybody who purchases the knife. Other details, like the heat treatment etc, are much less so, and probably do represent some sort of intellectual property. The competitive advantage of any small business catering to enthusiasts is in the customer service more than the product.

It's more of a balancing act. On one hand, the market for knives like this is relatively small so there is an interest in preserving the current monopoly and on the other hand the value of any good to a given consumer increases as it becomes more transparent, which is readily visible by people in this thread saying, more or less "I would pay for this if I only knew." It shifts the demand curve. 

Personally, I would be wary of buying something if somebody told me I didn't need to know what it was made of. I don't like the sentiment and I don't like the construction of a group in the know and a group out of it.


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## chinacats

mzer said:


> I think this misses the point completely. Not only is the level of intellectual property and research rather small, perhaps insignificant, but also the steel that the knife is made out of really isn't a trade secret since it is fully testable by anybody who purchases the knife. Other details, like the heat treatment etc, are much less so, and probably do represent some sort of intellectual property. The competitive advantage of any small business catering to enthusiasts is in the customer service more than the product.
> 
> Personally, I would be wary of buying something if somebody told me I didn't need to know what it was made of. I don't like the sentiment and I don't like the construction of a group in the know and a group out of it.



Then go buy from MR who will sell you black steel that doesn't exist...you roll the dice and get what you deserve. It also happens that mr is likely one of the main reasons why these things remain secret--a thief just waiting for the next successful thing to ripoff. If as you say the competitive advantage lies in the customer service then why do you care what the steel is? I own knives of all types of steel and could really give a **** what they are made of--just how they perform.

I guess you think Jon travels to Japan for free so he can do his research/development? Also, I'd love to hear how 'anyone' can test to see what steel they have in their knives.


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## echerub

While it is true that heat treat and geometry have a lot to do with how a knife performs, that's not how a lot of newer or more casual customers look at it. 

I'd say all of us went through a stage where just the type of steel and its HRC hardness would really sway us to buy a given product. Heat treat and geometry, at that stage, is not a consideration - only what's on the spec sheet that gets us. Casual customers never get beyond this, and then whoever offers that steel and hardness for the lowest price gets the sale.

So, for this reason, I think it's fair to say that service and knowledge are not always enough to hold on to customers. Vendors are therefore sometimes wise to hold some things - including steel type - pretty close to their chests.


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## Timthebeaver

mzer said:


> I think this misses the point completely. Not only is the level of intellectual property and research rather small, perhaps insignificant



For a small (perhaps even one-man) operation? It really isn't.



mzer said:


> the market for knives like this is relatively small so there is an interest in preserving the current monopoly



The "current monopoly" as you put it, if you are talking about the biggest retailer, is without doubt the leading parasite, aggressively picking up products introduced/developed by others. See the problem now?

Why anyone would be wary of buying a Japanese knife from Jon, Maxim etc. baffles me. And I don't think there are "groups in the know/out of it" either, that is nonsense. The retailers have their relationship with the smiths, and that is it. Often a smith will not want the specific details of their methods disclosed for obvious (to any rational observer) reasons.


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## DevinT

@mzer, I apologize for any frustration to you or others.

This is a matter of "Danged if you do and Danged if you don't". Sometimes danged if you do hurts a lot more than danged if you don't.

Hoss


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## mhlee

mzer said:


> I think this misses the point completely. Not only is the level of intellectual property and research rather small, perhaps insignificant, but also the steel that the knife is made out of really isn't a trade secret since it is fully testable by anybody who purchases the knife. Other details, like the heat treatment etc, are much less so, and probably do represent some sort of intellectual property. The competitive advantage of any small business catering to enthusiasts is in the customer service more than the product.
> 
> It's more of a balancing act. On one hand, the market for knives like this is relatively small so there is an interest in preserving the current monopoly and on the other hand the value of any good to a given consumer increases as it becomes more transparent, which is readily visible by people in this thread saying, more or less "I would pay for this if I only knew." It shifts the demand curve.
> 
> Personally, I would be wary of buying something if somebody told me I didn't need to know what it was made of. I don't like the sentiment and I don't like the construction of a group in the know and a group out of it.



You ignored my question and your analysis and reasoning are flawed. First of all, intellectual property is intellectual property. As small as it is, an owner of intellectual property has a right to protect it because, by its nature, it is valuable because no one else has it. That's why intellectual property can be copyrighted and particular names can be trademarked. The information has value.

Second, you fail to recognize that the intellectual property that includes the heat treatment is unique to each steel. You don't use one heat treatment for all steels. The research and testing is unique to each steel. Therefore, by giving up the type of steel, you give up the first and critical step to the making of a knife. 

Since this is a kitchen forum, here's a particular food-related analogy. Only one place in the world has the real recipe for Oysters Rockefeller: Antoine's. And that's because no one from Antoine's has ever disclosed what herbs - it is not spinach - are utilized in the real recipe. The herbs are the foundation of that recipe, just like the type of steel a knife is made of. If a competitor knew the actual blend of herbs, the uniqueness of the real recipe would be gone because every competitor/imitator would be able to claim that they have the real Oyster Rockefeller recipe. 

And, just remember, dishes and names of dishes can be trademarked (see Chairman Bao). They're often not and that usually has to do with cost. 

While I am not an intellectual property attorney, I certainly believe that any specific heat treatment could be copyrighted. However, the actual process would have to be filed and consequently made public. But, as with any infringement, the cost of prosecution belongs to the copyright owner, not the infringer. So, for smaller companies or manufacturers, the cost of enforcing their rights is prohibitive.

Third, you fail to recognize the cost of research, both time and money, by the makers and vendors and for competitors. What you propose basically eliminates the time and cost for a competitor to buy a knife, find a company that would test the steel, then pay to test the steel. A competitor that knows the type of steel can simply jump past all of these steps. In comparison, a competitor starting from scratch would have to choose a steel to try and master and determine the best heat treatment, forging, grinding, etc. 

Fourth, you fail to appreciate the competitive advantage of this intellectual property. Look at how other sellers, in particular, a competitor openly markets similar looking and identical grit stones to stones sold by vendors in this forum. But, they're not the same stones. The competitive advantage matters. Maybe this has an effect on the customer. But what this really has an effect on is the manufacturer and seller; in this case the smaller manufacturers and sellers of this forum as similar, but not identical, looking products are sold for less.

Lastly, while the market may be "small" in your opinion. To each of the vendors trying to protect the uniqueness of their product, it's their livelihood. 

So, again, would you publicly share your trade secrets, intellectual property, proprietary research, information that gives you a competitive advantage, etc.? 

Ultimately, it's your money. So go shop at a competitor who tells you the steel type.


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## mzer

Mhlee, I've noticed that you like to argue and get upset, so let's try to keep this civil. You make several assertions above, let's see if any have merit, or even relate to anything I have said. My original statement was that the type of steel is apparent to anybody testing it, so it is not a trade secret in any way. The heat treatment certainly could be considered a trade secret. Furthermore, I would add now that something like hrc is no different than weight or length, and really steel, it is a measurable part of a knife, so not a trade secret.

So then, we have done away swiftly with points one and two. They are either not disputed, that heat treatment is some sort of trade secret, or they are refuted as easily measurable and therefore not secret. As far as the cost of research, as a consumer I really don't care about it. The quantity and cost of research are meaningless, what is meaningful is the quality of product created by the research. By paying for a good product and wanting to pay extra for research time, you are counting the same trick twice. As a consumer it doesn't matter if Jon took five years developing a knife or if an angel presented it to him one night in a dream. The product is still the same.

Your fourth really isn't a point at all. I don't fail to recognize the competitive advantage of heat treatment or even maker or whatever. I simply dispute, and frankly have completely refuted, the idea that hrc and steel fall into this category. Your question is thus rendered meaningless, I am not claiming that anybody should share their trade secrets. Using your food analogy, I do not request that Coca Cola tells me their recipe, just that they print the ingredients. That way I know, as a consumer, that if there is something that doesn't agree with me, like a knife steel or an artificial coloring, I can avoid it with knowledge or inquire as to why I shouldn't worry about it.


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## Ruso

It stills baffles me how some people think that withholding basic information is a positive thing. It might not be harmful, but it is not positive for sure. 

Let's drop the knives for example and focus on the car analogy.... How would you feel if one of the vendors would not disclose some basic and trivial information like engine size or number of cylinders? For me - It would definitely make me feel uncomfortable purchasing from this vendor.
Steel type as well as engine size is not a trade secret, especially if it's not your own steel. And if it is your own steel, you definitely can patent it. It's a trivial knowledge that does not say much but gives you some basic expectations of the knife. 

There is lot of information hidden from the customers in the kitchen knife world. This vary from vendor to vendor of course. I guess this is because most users do not care, and the "elite" feels cooler by having this shady area where they can shine the light. Nothing bad with it, this happens in all close/small circles. It does feel nice to educate others and pass the knowledge to the less experienced ones. I think its part of human nature.
In addition to all that, I suspect that most good blacksmiths know each other tricks and correct heat treatment procedures. But there is something called skills, and this is something that cannot be copied.

Lets look at the OP example. If Jon disclosed the type of the steel what would happen to the industry... nothing really. AFAIK the profile and the geometry of the blade is far more important than the steel type. What does it mean? It means - if I like the knife I can order very similar shaped blade from 420C or any other steel and start selling it as my own brand. So again, where is a harm to disclose the steel type?

Now lets look from another side, marketing. Yes, here is where hiding or showing off some of the information/properties matter. In the OP case, the steel type is considered to be mediocre; hence hiding it makes perfect sense.

Also from marketing point of view it makes sense to hide steel information on very expensive knives to add some enigma to that sweet looking baby. There is many marketing tricks that are used everywhere, and the customer never is the winner. 
The customer only wins when he/she has access to as much information as possible relevant or not. It becomes the customer's responsibility to filter it and make an educated decision to each own possibilities. 

So I strongly believe that the knives vendors should disclose as much information as possible and let the customer decide. And this applies to all the industries; it just happens that this is a knife discussion.

P.S. This is not personal to anybody; this is just my overall view on the consumers rights.


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## echerub

I agree that more information benefits the consumer for any particular purchase. However, it may or may not benefit the seller. In the long run, it is also arguable how much it helps the consumer or not... though I suspect it would still end up on the positive side, just perhaps not spectacularly so.

The ingredient list is an interesting analogy, but I think there's something significantly different there: your health and even your life may depend on what is or is not in a particular food item. No comparable impact is at play with the steel type used in a knife.

The sportscar is also an interesting analogy... but to which we can apply a similar argument as used already: if what you're paying for is the performance and enjoyment of the car, what does it really matter how many cylinders it uses or the displacement? Yes, some of us are purists in some way and prefer a particular kind of engine, but really as long as the car does X, it doesn't matter how it does it.

Likewise, many of us for knives are purists in various ways, and we want to know details about a knife that really have nothing to do with the performance. I'm as guilty of that as anyone else - hence having more knives than pure need would justify.

But in the end I think it's a nice-to-know info, not have-to-know like the ingredients of something you're putting in your body. The harm to the customer of not knowing is negligible, while the harm to the seller of having the info out in the open may be quite a bit more than negligible. Very different from a food product, I would say.


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## jgraeff

Ruso said:


> It stills baffles me how some people think that withholding basic information is a positive thing. It might not be harmful, but it is not positive for sure.
> 
> Let's drop the knives for example and focus on the car analogy.... How would you feel if one of the vendors would not disclose some basic and trivial information like engine size or number of cylinders? For me - It would definitely make me feel uncomfortable purchasing from this vendor.
> Steel type as well as engine size is not a trade secret, especially if it's not your own steel. And if it is your own steel, you definitely can patent it. It's a trivial knowledge that does not say much but gives you some basic expectations of the knife.
> 
> There is lot of information hidden from the customers in the kitchen knife world. This vary from vendor to vendor of course. I guess this is because most users do not care, and the "elite" feels cooler by having this shady area where they can shine the light. Nothing bad with it, this happens in all close/small circles. It does feel nice to educate others and pass the knowledge to the less experienced ones. I think its part of human nature.
> In addition to all that, I suspect that most good blacksmiths know each other tricks and correct heat treatment procedures. But there is something called skills, and this is something that cannot be copied.
> 
> Lets look at the OP example. If Jon disclosed the type of the steel what would happen to the industry... nothing really. AFAIK the profile and the geometry of the blade is far more important than the steel type. What does it mean? It means - if I like the knife I can order very similar shaped blade from 420C or any other steel and start selling it as my own brand. So again, where is a harm to disclose the steel type?
> 
> Now lets look from another side, marketing. Yes, here is where hiding or showing off some of the information/properties matter. In the OP case, the steel type is considered to be mediocre; hence hiding it makes perfect sense.
> 
> Also from marketing point of view it makes sense to hide steel information on very expensive knives to add some enigma to that sweet looking baby. There is many marketing tricks that are used everywhere, and the customer never is the winner.
> The customer only wins when he/she has access to as much information as possible relevant or not. It becomes the customer's responsibility to filter it and make an educated decision to each own possibilities.
> 
> So I strongly believe that the knives vendors should disclose as much information as possible and let the customer decide. And this applies to all the industries; it just happens that this is a knife discussion.
> 
> P.S. This is not personal to anybody; this is just my overall view on the consumers rights.



Just curious....

so if a very reputable car company come out with a high end model for only 15k but would not disclose how they are able to produce that car at that price would you be wary? I for one would take a chance with a quality vendor. 

Not to say that his prices are cheaper just saying, i believe that the quality of the person you deal with is more important. I mean Jon and Sara hand-wright personal letter to each person for each purchase, he is quick on responding to emails having to do with questions, and will not recommend his products if he feels they are not the best for you. I mean i would shop with JKI before CKTG anyday just because they have earned my trust. Not that i don't shop at CKTG.

And i want JKI to stay around, if he has to tell every detail of every knife and the maker where he buys them then CKTG will simply go there and start selling cheaper and JKI would have a much harder time staying in business, thats why i dont mind him not disclosing the information.

It is up to the individual but like i said Jon only sells quality products.


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## labor of love

i guess theres 2 arguments here. all ive been trying say is that there really isnt much of a logical reason to know the steel type. because knowledge of any particular steel shouldnt really be an indicator of a knives performance at all. that other guy at the other site can pretty much have any knife made with any steel for $150 or less. so consumers have a tendency to focus on a steel type and avoid other attributes a knife will have.
It sounds like im hearing that you just want the freedom of knowing the steel type regardless of what repercussions that information could have. but those repercussions wont affect you, will they?they will affect individual craftsmen and mom and pop vendors. if you feel better protected by only purchasing knives that you are certain of the steel type then by all means do so. but i would expect the trend of making certain things of knife production proprietarty only to increase with the ever growing jknife american market.


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## kartman35

At least he's being up front about withholding the steel type. Some other vendors prefer to make up a name for what they want to remain mystery steel...

For example, anyone here want to purchase a gyuto for 1000$ made of 'black' steel??? Sorry, can't post a link...


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## Timthebeaver

labor of love said:


> you and many other people are presupposing that the steel type will help you narrow down your purchase selection from a consumer standpoint. thats what you want to do with the information right? the point ive been trying to stress here is that steel type doesnt even belong in the equation.



This. Kitchen knives are tools, performance is everything. Problem is, performance cannot be compartmentalised like names, letters and numbers can. That and the fact that people want to believe that their unobtanium wonder steel is the bestest thing ever, regardless.


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## Timthebeaver

kartman35 said:


> For example, anyone here want to purchase a gyuto for 1000$ made of 'black' steel??? Sorry, can't post a link...



$1000 only gets you san-mai with Black steel hagane. It's that awesome/premium/rare/esoteric etc.


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## labor of love

:tmi:


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## DevinT

From the looks of it, the steel is similar to one of the following; AUS-10, 19c27, Ginsanko, or AEB-H. It may have a little higher alloy and be similar to 440-C, VG-10, or N690. There are some other lesser known grades that would be close to these with similar qualities. Properly heat treated, all of these steels will perform about the same. They will have similar carbide volumes and size, hardness, grain size, stain resistance, sharpen-ability, toughness, and edge holding. Under magnification, it would be very difficult to distinguish between any of them.

Hope this helps. I am surprised that this is bringing out so much emotion in the members here and is so polarizing. 

Hoss


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## mhlee

Ruso said:


> It stills baffles me how some people think that withholding basic information is a positive thing. It might not be harmful, but it is not positive for sure.
> 
> Let's drop the knives for example and focus on the car analogy.... How would you feel if one of the vendors would not disclose some basic and trivial information like engine size or number of cylinders? For me - It would definitely make me feel uncomfortable purchasing from this vendor.
> Steel type as well as engine size is not a trade secret, especially if it's not your own steel. And if it is your own steel, you definitely can patent it. It's a trivial knowledge that does not say much but gives you some basic expectations of the knife.



The fact that you have expectations of a knife based on the type of steel is the type of misinformation many vendors here are trying to avoid. Geometry affects how a knife performs, i.e. cuts. Steel type has more to do with edge retention, toughness, wear resistance and staining.



Ruso said:


> There is lot of information hidden from the customers in the kitchen knife world. This vary from vendor to vendor of course. I guess this is because most users do not care, and the "elite" feels cooler by having this shady area where they can shine the light. Nothing bad with it, this happens in all close/small circles. It does feel nice to educate others and pass the knowledge to the less experienced ones. I think its part of human nature.
> In addition to all that, I suspect that most good blacksmiths know each other tricks and correct heat treatment procedures. But there is something called skills, and this is something that cannot be copied.



That's again, the point. Vendors push steel type because it's a marketing tool. It certainly doesn't mean that the knife is good. So, by focusing on steel type, you're buying the misinformation. 

From what I have read and understand from talking with several blacksmiths, most good blacksmiths DO NOT know each others' specific tricks. And this, again, starts with the type of steel. 



Ruso said:


> Lets look at the OP example. If Jon disclosed the type of the steel what would happen to the industry... nothing really. AFAIK the profile and the geometry of the blade is far more important than the steel type. What does it mean? It means - if I like the knife I can order very similar shaped blade from 420C or any other steel and start selling it as my own brand. So again, where is a harm to disclose the steel type?



But if a competitor markets a knife as the same steel at lesser price than what Jon sells, is the competitor going to take customers away from Jon? There's a good chance of that. And, even while you say that profile and geometry are more important than steel type, you clearly believe that the type of steel gives you basic expectations of a knife. 



Ruso said:


> Now lets look from another side, marketing. Yes, here is where hiding or showing off some of the information/properties matter. In the OP case, the steel type is considered to be mediocre; hence hiding it makes perfect sense.
> 
> Also from marketing point of view it makes sense to hide steel information on very expensive knives to add some enigma to that sweet looking baby. There is many marketing tricks that are used everywhere, and the customer never is the winner.
> The customer only wins when he/she has access to as much information as possible relevant or not. It becomes the customer's responsibility to filter it and make an educated decision to each own possibilities.
> 
> So I strongly believe that the knives vendors should disclose as much information as possible and let the customer decide. And this applies to all the industries; it just happens that this is a knife discussion.
> 
> P.S. This is not personal to anybody; this is just my overall view on the consumers rights.



This is hilarious to me. How many knives have you bought that haven't been good? There is so much misinformation spread that I'd say it's nearly impossible to filter out the information and make an educated decision based on the available information. 

There is simply too much information, most of it marketing and most of it bad. There are so many vendors and people pushing steel type, hardness, and never discuss actual performance because the knives themselves are CRAP cutters that it's laughable. 

The customer gets to make a decision they're comfortable with if they have as much information as possible. But that doesn't mean you'll make the correct decision or best decision. 

And, how does the customer wins when they have access to as much information as possible relevant or not, when, if the customer relies on _not relevant_ information? If there was enough information out there, you likely wouldn't think that steel type provides "some basic expectations of the knife" because, as you pointed out, geometry is, as you put it, _*far more important than the steel type.*_ Besides stainless vs. a knife that stains, what does steel type actually tell you? It, as Devin points out, doesn't tell you that it's been correctly heat treated, and it certainly tells you nothing about cutting performance. That's why who is making, manufacturing and selling is more important that steel type.


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## Ruso

2mhlee - no need to go in circles as I will just repeat myself using different words answering you.


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## bikehunter

Heh....File this entire thread under exercise in futility.


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## Keith Sinclair

Not only that it is a small % of knives sold.Most people have no knowledge of knife steel & could care less.It seems that a certain seller has copied steel for this small market & sells for less,without delivering in geometery.

The Gesshin Ginga is made by persons who know how to make a well performing knife.Besides I kind of like the idea of supporting small forges esp. making quality knives.

All the Resturant Supply,Department,& fancy kitchen stores here have German ,Swiss & Tons of Shuns.Knife Geeks want to know steel,HT etc.I asked Jon whats in these blades,if he chooses not to say,who am I to argue.He is generious wt. sharing knife sharpening skills,good customer service.The stones & knives I have purchased fr. him are top notch:knife:


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## DevinT

The steel is a 1% carbon 13 1/2 % chrome stainless with a small amount of Nb added for toughness and edge holding. It is made by a small steel mill in Japan. 

Hoss


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## mhlee

Ruso said:


> 2mhlee - no need to go in circles as I will just repeat myself using different words answering you.



You should try again because your positions are contradictory.


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## brainsausage

Steel type is just a marketing ploy. As is HRC. It really doesn't tell you much. But a competent, honest, reliable retailer, who actually uses their products, and understands different users needs, can tell you quite a bit. Unfortunately there's very few of those. Greed and mass marketing has terribly changed the face of retail. It's not about forming a longstanding relationship anymore, built on standing behind one's products, and taking interest in their production- start to finish and beyond... its all about the quick cash grab now, and heavy propagandizing. And people fall for it, and just throw stuff away and consume some more...


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## Dave Martell

If I could re-do my past one thing that I'd do differently is to re-label (re-pack) all of the stones I found and tested over the years to something other than the real name. Sure I'd hate to play that game but it would have slowed down one a-hole from coming along and just ordering for his store from my store's list. Shoot, not only did he use my efforts as a what to order list, he even took my write ups as his own. I lost 1/3 of my income instantly when he did this - 1/3rd! Now that was only talking profit, the cash flow loss was much MUCH more.

I can't blame a single person selling products in this community for going with private labels and/or keeping product specifics to themselves, not when there's a scumbag of a vulcher circling looking for new pray to dine on. 

Unfortunately some of you don't know that this scumbag has NEVER done anything on his own successfully. He's done very well using the ideas he's stolen yet of his own ideas he's failed pretty much every time so why would he continue to not steal from others since that's what he gets right? It's not like he's shown us that he'll do anything other than that.

My point here is maybe we shouldn't be so hard on someone who is just trying to eek out a living in a community containing unscrupulous people....maybe you're getting upset with the wrong person....maybe vendors/knifemakers are just re-acting to a condition/situation caused by another.....maybe they don't want to have to do this but have to if they want to survive?


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## JohnnyChance

Perhaps my three best gyutos are Shigefusa, Kato & Devin Thomas. I do not know the steel of any of these. I bought them because of reputation and recommendations. Not knowing the steel didn't affect my ability to learn how they perform and sharpen and my own experience has backed up that information. 

To Jon's point of dealing with what the customer needs rather than what type of steel they want and the car analogy: Do you really need to know if a car has 4, 6 or 8 cylinders, or do you need to know how much power it has, it's efficiency/gas mileage and it's reliability? If Jon were selling used cars and I went in and I said I want a V8, I might miss out on 6 cylinder that has comparable power, less weight, better efficiency, etc. Preconceived notions aren't always a good thing.


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## brainsausage

JohnnyChance said:


> Perhaps my three best gyutos are Shigefusa, Kato & Devin Thomas. I do not know the steel of any of these. I bought them because of reputation and recommendations. Not knowing the steel didn't affect my ability to learn how they perform and sharpen and my own experience has backed up that information.
> 
> To Jon's point of dealing with what the customer needs rather than what type of steel they want and the car analogy: Do you really need to know if a car has 4, 6 or 8 cylinders, or do you need to know how much power it has, it's efficiency/gas mileage and it's reliability? If Jon were selling used cars and I went in and I said I want a V8, I might miss out on 6 cylinder that has comparable power, less weight, better efficiency, etc. Preconceived notions aren't always a good thing.



Well said.


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## dough

This is a crazy topic but I think a lot of good posts have been made.
JC post above pretty much sums up how I feel.

I personally agree with those here... I tried to pick steel that I wanted then learned just rely on the maker if they actually cared to sell me a knife for me rather then just take my money and run.
For years I passed on Butch's knives because I thought I hated cpm-154 in a kitchen knife but figured it would be more useful in a edc... my chef knife is my edc most days so in turn I stupidly ignored all the glowing posts about his grinds and useful designs. Plus the longer I waited the less his knives were available and prices kept going up.

Years later I had the chance to buy a knife from mario and despite the cpm-154 all the talk of his grind had me enthralled. I have since found that maybe Butch isnt a fool for making knives out of that steel and maybe I should just learn to express my intentions and preconceived needs then let the maker blow me away with something that was more then I intended. If you cant guess I love the knife from mario and honestly for knives in that price range his knife is outstanding.

I can certainly understand and respect those who want to know the steel. Honestly I dont think its a big deal but this seems more an argument about why all information isnt free and available not an intimate discussion of does it really matter if Jon tells this one particular products steel. Not to mention it somewhat is a claim we know how to run Jon's business better then him and maybe we do but Jon imo has built up a stellar reputation of going out of his way to please a customer and until I hear or see otherwise I'll assume his decisions to be in my best interests and his best interests 
either way nobody is perfect so feel free to question away maybe Jon will say ok enough is enough the mystery steel is.... and soon we should have this same thread to determine what the "mystery carbon" is
anyway carry on goodluck


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## TheDispossessed

funny thing is, i never met a young cook or home cook with an entry level japanese knife who had any idea what type of steel it was made of. the uraku line is an explicitly entry-level, workhorse line, the people buying these knives likely don't care about steel type, they just want a decent knife and i'm sure appreciate good customer service when they are new to the whole thing especially.


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## Pdksays

Ok so I think I opened up a can of worms here and I certainly wasn't trying to. I bought the uraku gyuto as a foray into a wa-handle knife as I've worked solely with western handle j-knives thus far. I've been cooking professionally for 8 years and it was time to try something new, this knife has performed above my expectations, considering the price point and I'm continually surprised by it, no disrespect to Jon, I know he only sells quality products. I was only looking for a little more information on the steel type after a knife savvy co-worker asked me what it was made out of and I honestly couldn't tell him. No I don't think not knowing the steel would prevent me from buying a knife as I use this forum and others like it to learn about prospective purchases before I take the plunge, however I do think it would be nice to know. Now does me not knowing make my knife less sharp? No. Does it make me less likely to recommend this knife to a peer? No. I simply wanted to know out of curiosity.


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## chuck239

Ruso,

Do you cook professionally? Because I do. An example for me is when guest ask me for the recipes of our food, no unfortunately I am not will to give out all of that information. To be honest, I won't even give a list of the ingredients in some of our dishes. Just because someone is buying dinner doesn't mean you have to give them a list of every single ingredient or the recipe to the dish. Maybe other do it different but not where I work. 

I used to love knowing steel types! I thought it was the most important thing about a knife. But an artifax AEB-L and a Devin AEB-L... Same steel type used in both knives... Or just save the money and buy the artifax if you must try an AEB-L knife. They make the knives, research the steels, work with the steels, test out new steels.... Why do they "need" to give you and the rest of the world including their competitors the types of steel they are using. Hell, look at Devin, he was making great knives in 52100 and AEB-L when I first got on his list. Then, many other makers started using AEB-L and some vendors started carrying new lines of Japanese knives made with AEB-L. I can personally tell you that I have used knives with AEB-L that were absolute garbage but at the same time I can tell you Devin's AEB-L gave me a new love for stainless after not purchasing a stainless knife for a very long time. He then went and did tons of testing on other types of and I have owned 3 and tried 2 others. They were all fantastic knives. I liked some more than others. In the end of the day, why does the type of steel matter? The knives cut and performed great. Just my 2 cents. Luckily, there are TONS of other makers out there that do list their steel types and if you want many of the brands mentioned do make some knives that they tell you the steel type. So, if it's that big of a deal, buy elsewhere?

-Chuck


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## Crothcipt

It could be that if John lists what the steel is, then the maker would be relieved cause there is only 1 maker with that steel? Or some other way of finding out in a similar manner I say good for John.


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## pkjames

JohnnyChance said:


> Perhaps my three best gyutos are Shigefusa, Kato & Devin Thomas. I do not know the steel of any of these. I bought them because of reputation and recommendations. Not knowing the steel didn't affect my ability to learn how they perform and sharpen and my own experience has backed up that information.
> 
> To Jon's point of dealing with what the customer needs rather than what type of steel they want and the car analogy: Do you really need to know if a car has 4, 6 or 8 cylinders, or do you need to know how much power it has, it's efficiency/gas mileage and it's reliability? If Jon were selling used cars and I went in and I said I want a V8, I might miss out on 6 cylinder that has comparable power, less weight, better efficiency, etc. Preconceived notions aren't always a good thing.




+1.


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## ChiliPepper

I don't get it.
So you're buyin a knife and steel is the center of argument.
If you're a newbie you will not know how that steel might be different and not really care.
If you're a pro you'll know that knowing the kind of steel will not tell you if he knife is intrinsically good or bad because of ht, skills, geometry, etc.
So what's the problem in telling what steel you're using?
I would still only buy from knowledgeable and respected sellers.


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## mhlee

ChiliPepper said:


> So what's the problem in telling what steel you're using?



Read the posts of makers and vendors.


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## Crothcipt

But chilli pepper, not all sellers are reputable, creating the crux of the problem.


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## jaybett

We are all curious about metal types and have a general idea about their characteristics. White takes a keen edge, but doesn't have great edge retention. Blue doesn't have quite the edge, of white, but much better edge retention. Powdered Metal has very good edge retention. Stainless steel such as VG-10, is known for chipping. 

A person doesn't have to be member of this forum very long to realize that there is more to a knife then just the type of steel used. Profile, grind, heat treatment, are what make the knife. In other words the ability of the maker, to work with the steel. A maker can enhance characteristics of the steel or minimize them. Most of buy knifes based on the reputation of the maker, and the characteristics or traits. 

How many of us buy knifes, based on a list of details? Blue steel #2, Rockwell 61, Ice quenched, Double Bevel. I would be there are very few. 

The only way to find out if a characteristic or trait works for a cutting style, is to try the knife. It probably takes 3-4 knifes, before a person can identify preferred characteristics. A vendor such as Jon or Maxim can take the desired characteristics and match them up with a knife. 

All industries have trade secrets, methods they believe help them stay in business. Developing techniques to work with a steel, can take years. As well as finding an ideal set of sharpening stones. Why should a competitor get results of what somebody else has developed? A competitor may see the success of a product, their challenge is to develop an answer, not duplicate the product. 

Jay


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## mhlee

jaybett said:


> All industries have trade secrets, methods they believe help them stay in business. Developing techniques to work with a steel, can take years. As well as finding an ideal set of sharpening stones. Why should a competitor get results of what somebody else has developed? A competitor may see the success of a product, their challenge is to develop an answer, not duplicate the product.
> 
> Jay



Some members, obviously, think that this is irrelevant.


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## JBroida

jaybett said:


> We are all curious about metal types and have a general idea about their characteristics. White takes a keen edge, but doesn't have great edge retention. Blue doesn't have quite the edge, of white, but much better edge retention. Powdered Metal has very good edge retention. Stainless steel such as VG-10, is known for chipping.



This is what i mean... while most of us "know" this, i can easily find exceptions to every single one of these statements (i.e. white with better edge retention than most blue steels, blue with finer edge taking and ease of sharpening than most white, non brittle vg-10, etc.).


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## ChiliPepper

mhlee said:


> Read the posts of makers and vendors.



Yeah yeah...


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## ChiliPepper

Crothcipt said:


> But chilli pepper, not all sellers are reputable, creating the crux of the problem.



Agree 100%, it's kinda what I tried to say in my initial post: if you're a reputable seller that knows its stuff and even goes the extra mile for his customers then in order to make my choice I would rather talk with that seller than relying just on the steel type.
This, in my humble opinion, pretty much equals to saying that if the seller discloses just the steel type it is not that much of a loss. A dodgy competitor might try to copy it but the steel alone will not be sufficient to create a similar product, quality wise. Interesting thread by the way


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## heirkb

ChiliPepper said:


> Agree 100%, it's kinda what I tried to say in my initial post: if you're a reputable seller that knows its stuff and even goes the extra mile for his customers then in order to make my choice I would rather talk with that seller than relying just on the steel type.
> This, in my humble opinion, pretty much equals to saying that if the seller discloses just the steel type it is not that much of a loss. A dodgy competitor might try to copy it but the steel alone will not be sufficient to create a similar product, quality wise. Interesting thread by the way



I kept wanting to stay out, but it's amazing how much trouble people have putting two and two together.

Dave's post perfectly addresses your point. He went through the trouble of finding a particular line-up of stones and the stones were picked up by other vendors. Then people went and bought from those vendors for a saving of $5. The fact is, not everyone does what you claim you would do, hence the need to keep some things secret. You'd have zero gain from knowing the information while others would stand to lose from it becoming public. How does it not make sense that they don't share that information?


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## cookinstuff

My friend at work needed a workhorse, in stainless. Jon referred him the 270 Gesshin Uraku, he loves it. My friend is 50 years old, and has been cooking since he was a teenager, pro user, sharpens himself on king 1000/6000, doesn't care what steel it is. Not that it is wrong that you do, it's just that he just wanted a well performing knife, he got burnt going to that other site on a different brand that was stainless and a bit cheaper. 

So he phoned Jon, and asked him for a well performing knife, and that is what he got. I asked Jon for a good all around cutter, wasn't concerned about stainless or blade maintenance, and edge retention wasn't a huge issue as I have several gyutos in the lineup and rotate between sharpening. Just wanted a nice feeling sharp cutter, Jon referred me a Gengetsu, and I got everything and more Jon suggested. Jon is a man who will turn down a sale if it's not right for you, he will not upsell you just because he wants your money, but if you ask the right questions, and most importantly, respect his advice, you will end up with a knife that will make you happy, no lemons here. Because trust me, listen to Jon, he knows more than you do about knives, especially the ones he is selling. This might sound like a blatent plug for Jon, because it is, he is one of the best if not the best vendors of knives out there. Just watch his videos where he looks like he has the hots for his products, you can see the guy's freaking heart, that's not just good acting.

Also, when our package arrived together, I had to weigh the damn thing to find out which was mine, so I could get it open to use. The packaging from Sarah was so beautifully done that I felt if I opened my friends knife he would have killed me, he was floored, as was I. We got handwritten notes showing their appreciation, was very heartwarming. This is doing business like it was done in the past, and should be done. I should ask my friend at work if he would rather know the steel on his Uraku, or be 'able' to get a refund on that lemon he got from that walmart site, I bet I know the answer. Sorry for the rant, just a happy customer of the 'local ma and pa' internet knife store.


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## ChiliPepper

heirkb said:


> I kept wanting to stay out, but it's amazing how much trouble people have putting two and two together.
> 
> Dave's post perfectly addresses your point. He went through the trouble of finding a particular line-up of stones and the stones were picked up by other vendors. Then people went and bought from those vendors for a saving of $5. The fact is, not everyone does what you claim you would do, hence the need to keep some things secret. You'd have zero gain from knowing the information while others would stand to lose from it becoming public. How does it not make sense that they don't share that information?


Hey heirkb I get your point but a stone's a stone and a knife's a different thing. It might indeed take less to copy someone's choice of stones and sell them for 5 bucks less thus damaging the original seller but you CAN'T sell any knife made of aebl hoping it's the same as one in the same metal made and sold by Devin. Apple with apples, otherwise we ain't putting things into perspective. But please take my postings as a chance to debate, not as full frontal attack...


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## ChiliPepper

If on the other hand we're saying that vendor A does all the research, invests in his knowledge and comes up with the decision (and risks) to propose a product to his customers, then vendor B copies that choice, contacts the same manifacturer and sells exactly the same product at lesser price... well... welcome to the bitchy world of capitalism.
I would still do all I can to support vendor A because I admire dedication, passion and good customer service but that's just me, and the world is a big place.
(but here we're getting miles away from the original subject which was the importance of disclosing just the type of steel in a knife)


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## cookinstuff

You are acting like those aeb-l knives for less than 100$ haven't affected makers here that make aeb l knives because they aren't as good? I fail to see how labeling and categorizing inferior products with superior products just because the steel used was the same, it's not apples with apples, maybe we should just group all knives by price point? We don't do that either, because we 'know' that's not right, so why is just grouping steel right. Hell, you can search knives by the steel on CKTG, that just gets this misinformation circle going.

This is an interesting debate imo, some interesting points have been brought up, but after using tons of knives in the same steels, and different steels, I can say I wish more sellers were like Jon. You tell him what you are working with, what you want, what has failed to impress, things like that, and he won't let you down. Also, about the welcome to the world of capitalism, I personally think we should not look at big money grubbing corporations for advice on running our small businesses, maybe Jon isn't trying to get rich, but he also isn't trying to get taken out of business either. He needs the advantage he has if he is going to continue operating against big guys that are circling like vultures like Dave said.


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## Baby Huey

It has been a good debate up to a point. Almost seems like it is being stretched now. Some peoples opinions are just that THEIR opinions. I have not purchased a knife from Jon yet, but plan to in the near future. I plan to purchase from him because of the name he has made for himself. I feel (In my opinion based on other people's opinions) that he is a good example of how more people should run their businesses. That being said I would not deem myself worthy to tell him how to run his business. If we became friends then I could maybe offer advice, but to push it beyond offering would just be rude. What he is doing is working for him and all of his satisfied customers so far.


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## heirkb

And that gets us right back to the issue that _you_ might do that, but there are likely many who wouldn't. How else are certain sites still successful?

As for apples and apples, I think my comparison was very much that. When shopping woth Jon, you need to know the steel of your knife as much as you need the manufacturer's name/chemical composition of your sharpening stones. It's a false "need". Sure it's nice (I guess), but we don't actually gain anything by it even if we think we do, while those who went and found those specific knives or stones stand to lose by sharing the info that would allow others to sell the same products. At worst, think of giving up that type of access to info as being a necessary evil to keep vendors like Jon around.


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## mhlee

ChiliPepper said:


> If on the other hand we're saying that vendor A does all the research, invests in his knowledge and comes up with the decision (and risks) to propose a product to his customers, then vendor B copies that choice, contacts the same manifacturer and sells exactly the same product at lesser price... well... welcome to the bitchy world of capitalism.



This is precisely the problem. There are vendors out there that are simply trying to capitalize on the success of products of other vendors, whether by trying to provide the same knife or product at a lesser price (sometimes at a loss simply to take away market share) or by blatantly selling a similar specification and looking product, although not identical. Many similar knives are marketed by the type of steel. This is fact, not hyperbole.


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## mhlee

ChiliPepper said:


> It might indeed take less to copy someone's choice of stones and sell them for 5 bucks less thus damaging the original seller but you CAN'T sell any knife made of aebl hoping it's the same as one in the same metal made and sold by Devin.



You obviously haven't seen how many people have bought AEB-L knives because they "want to try the steel" and have heard that "it's a good steel" or how cheaper AEB-L knives are marketed as having "good steel." A newbie doesn't understand the significant difference in quality. But the company selling these inferior AEB-L knives doesn't explain that there's a difference. It's capitalizing on the reputation of the quality of that steel. This is similar to how so many German companies emphasized for years that their knives used X50CrMoV15 and how sellers also did the same. I bought a set of Messermeister Meridian knives for friends of mine in the mid-90's as a wedding present; the seller made a point of how Messermeister used the same steel as Wusthof and Henckels. No one said that the quality of the steel was any different between makers.

The seller of these cheaper AEB-L knives is capitalizing on the good work of one person in particular. Who is the person who showed knife enthusiasts how good AEB-L can be? That's right - Mr. Devin Thomas. 

In my opinion, and based on what I've seen over the years, Devin nearly singlehandedly made AEB-L an important steel for kitchen knives. I had started seriously researching kitchen about a year or so before Devin made his first batch of ITK AEB-L knives. When these knives came out, there was such an unbelievable demand for them. Batches of his gyutos sold out in minutes. I'm not exaggerating one bit. I think one batch of 10 or so knives sold out in two minutes. 

You're right. People shouldn't think that a cheaper AEB-L knife is the same as one sold by Devin. But, no one is telling the buyer of those cheaper knives that they're any different, and most buyers don't even know that there is a difference.

And, now, you're even starting to see people complaining about these cheaper AEB-L knives. In the end, this may even hurt Devin or any higher end knife maker that uses AEB-L as more and more people use these inferior AEB-L knives and begin to think the opposite: that AEB-L knives are not good.


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## jaybett

ChiliPepper said:


> If on the other hand we're saying that vendor A does all the research, invests in his knowledge and comes up with the decision (and risks) to propose a product to his customers, then vendor B copies that choice, contacts the same manifacturer and sells exactly the same product at lesser price... well... welcome to the bitchy world of capitalism.
> I would still do all I can to support vendor A because I admire dedication, passion and good customer service but that's just me, and the world is a big place.
> (but here we're getting miles away from the original subject which was the importance of disclosing just the type of steel in a knife)



Business have information that they wish to keep confidential or secret to make it sound more intriguing. It can be pretty basic, such as which items are going to be in the weekly ad. The number of units which they are going to get of a popular product. 

When it comes to purchasing knifes or stones, we often look to trusted members, to get their opinion. In the old forum, there was a period when people were finding new stone makers in Japan, and ordering their product. Dave's business became a testing laboratory. He was buying stones but people were sending him recommendations and stones. One of the anticipated posts were Dave's review of a stone. If it was positive, then the vendors who sold the stone, saw a sudden increase in sales. Ken was an early user of Chosera stones. He was trying to tell people, that Chosera were great stones. When Dave did a review of the Chosera, and reported they were great stones, they became popular. 

Dave's opinion, carries weight and adds value to a product. The stone line up, was a natural extension of his business. Here are the same stones that a professional sharpener uses. The problem is without Dave's recommendation or comments, how do you sell the stones? The vendor isn't just selling stones, he is selling Dave's reputation. 

I don't know in and outs of being a knife maker. But if makers are reluctant to share information on type of steel used in their knives, I'm sure they have their reasons. Maybe they don't want preconceived notions on steel, limiting their sales. Or it could be they are trying to maintain a competitive edge. 

There is a notion that members will pay more to buy a product from a trusted vendor. Human nature is to take the best deal. If two vendors have the exact same product, the one with the lower price is more likely to win. 

Jay


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## ChiliPepper

Yeah, I hear you guys and I think that, at the end, we all agree to support people like Dave and Jon because they have invested so much in researching the best and bringing it to us. That doubles up with a unique dedication to customers and this combo is just too precious to be discarded for a few dollars difference as proposed by other "lurchers". I haven't had the chance to deal with such nice vendors because of distance and shipping costs but I trust your opinions/reviews and sincerely hope they continue to have the success they deserve.
I still think though that keeping the steel a secret is a bit "meh", that's exactly why I'd never buy a mystical magical noo-bah-whateva "black steel" knife. I just feel like the seller is treating me like a brainless moron. Sorry maybe it's just my ego talking.Anyway I'll respect a trustful seller if he decides to keep it a secret and that helps his valuable business.
That Gesshin Kagekyio, on the other hand... :ninja:


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## maxim

Late to the party  

lus1: on Dave, Jon and Devin. Same apply to Jnats and synthetic stones ! Thats why i dont bother to write strata, full name and full Appearance. I have been proven wrong so many times that it just dont make sense anymore. 
Same with Steel !


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## jgraeff

Bottom line is the vendor has a right to withhold that information for any reason they see it necessary, if you have a problem buying from them then thats your decision. When it comes to Jon at JKI you must be crazy to worry about purchasing from him, i have never had an issue with a purchase from him, but i feel confident if i had that Jon would have taken care of it right away. 

He doesn't sell his products just to make a dime, he is selling them to people who actually need them, he searches for what you need and fits you, not just your wallet. You have tons of members here who vogue for him so if your new, dont get hung up on steel types, contact him and see what he recommends for you, i guarantee you will not be disappointed.


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## DevinT

This thread is longer than it needs to be.

Business is a learn as you go thing. You learn from your mistakes and it is necessary to adjust so that it doesn't happen again. It is impossible to run a business at the whims of the customer, there has to boundaries set in place to preserve the integrity of the business as a whole.

Jon/JKI is a great example of how a business should be run.

Nuf said.

Love and respect

Hoss


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## RRLOVER

DevinT said:


> This thread is longer than it needs to
> 
> Hoss



I was thinking the same thing.....90 post of nothing!!!.....Is everyone PMS'in on here???


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## ChiliPepper

Amen


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