# Knife shopping in Japan and house brands



## wirth.jason (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm currently in Japan visiting my girlfriend and want to get a (many?) Japanese knife. Probably I'll add a 240mm gyuto and a 210mm petty/suji, both in a wa-handle to my collection.

I went to Kappabashi to look at all the different knife shops (as well as general cooking stores, the trip pleasantly took the entire afternoon). While the shops had Japanese knives for days, I felt rather underwhelmed with the selection of Western-style knives, particularly in a wa-handle. 

The knife I liked the most was a 240mm white steel gyuto for 15,800 yen (~$160 USD) at Kamata (link). 

I couldn't find much information about the knife, only the basic info and that it's Kamata's house brand. ("Who makes this knife?" "Ah, this store's brand.") Does anyone have any experience with house brands? 

It seems that house brands are quite popular as other stores carry their own house brands rather than brands mentioned on these forums. I wonder if the popularity of Kappabashi for tourists, and as western-style Japanese knives have become more popular, means the stores stop stocking well known brands and just contract out. 

That said, the knife is probably pretty decent, although I just handled it and didn't cut anything. I don't think I would be buying a bad knife, but perhaps better knives can be found. Being in Japan I was hoping to find a little more selection. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?


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## kpnv (Feb 7, 2014)

if you frequent kkf and think that heiji's trendier than kato or vice versa, you're spoilt by the information that guys like jon and maksim have delivered to this community. i didn't see any store that carried those knives when i went up and down japan. on my last two holidays.

quite honestly, there is no better selection of japanese knives than online. no store in japan even comes close. from what you're describing, a 240 wa gyuto and 210 wa petty/suji particularly, the sakai knife museum is probably your best bet of handling more than one brand and having a few knives to compare and contrast. of course, the museum has pretty limited stock and you probably won't be able to choose from individual knives if they do have something you want.

you could of course, stump up the cash and time for a bullet train to sakai but you might actually end up ordering the knives from say ashi hamono online instead, where they either have the knives you want in stock or they'll make it for you if you wait.

personally, i don't recommend going to sakai unless you know exactly what you want. there's a few stores that are spread all over the town and some brands don't have stores, just distribution centers or factories which are usually out of bounds to travellers. shopping is one boring hike and if you change your mind, it's either a long hike back or a shorter one with a tram ride involved. if you do go to osaka, then sakai as a half day hike might be ok but it's really nothing but trying to find knives.

if you want to stick in tokyo, maybe try tsukiji or masamoto sohonten near the tokyo sky tree. i kinda liked kama-asa in kappabashi, which stocks some brandless knives. if you go to osaka, doguyasuji. kyoto has a few stores spread around but they're not all that great.

but again, online has the best selection.

also, with house brands, they tend to get similar oem manufacturers who make big brands knives to make house brand knives. in some cases a big brand could very well be near identical to a house brand. most knives are made oem anyway, even in sakai, with the branding stamped on later. it's pretty complex but suffice to say, i find that house brand knives generally won't be the best stuff. they tend to just add onto the production for the lower end stuff. they are however, probably really good value.


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## Asteger (Feb 7, 2014)

A couple things to say: I agree with a lot of what kpnv said above, though personally I've enjoyed visits to Sakai, etc, more than it seems he has. Yes, it can take some work to find stuff, and you'll never find all the stuff you'd want, I think that's all still interesting. Much more rewarding than if there was a 'Nihon Hamono Megashop' in Ginza, Tokyo, or something. And of course the amount of people interested in this stuff is never going to support something like that, either.

Definitely online is the way to go, and nothing's stopping anyone from contacting makers directly and ordering from them. As for house brands, I think that's just a normal retail sort of thing to do with many products in many countries. And the same things happen with some fav KKF sellers: we've got Gesshin knives and stones, JNS has its Matukusuyama stones and Itinomonn knives, and in many cases the producers, origins and details of these products are kept hush-hush. The result are products that are designed to appeal to their clientele which often like different things than the local Japanese buyers of the knives and stones might seek along with possible customer support, so nothing wrong with it except that perhaps you'd get lower prices and a different kind of satisfaction if you we able to source your purchases more directly from the makers. 

As for quality of house brands in Japan, my impression is that this can be all over the place but without any real surprises. Lots of the cheaper stuff might be the house brands, but then also more expensive stuff too and you should have an idea of the quality; for example in the past Shigefusa has made knives under the Kiya name. 

Oh, and you can find shops that sell things which are more 'known' here on KKF. However, they're here and there and take a lot more effort, and not in the obvious places, like Kappabashi. Most people probably wouldn't want to search that hard or, to be honest, be able to find these. 



wirth.jason said:


> It seems that house brands are quite popular as other stores carry their own house brands rather than brands mentioned on these forums. I wonder if the popularity of Kappabashi for tourists, and as western-style Japanese knives have become more popular, means the stores stop stocking well known brands and just contract out.



I doubt the tourist trade has that much effect on how Kappabashi shops sell their knives, though it does mean some people can handle some English and you'll probably see as many western handles and damascus as anywhere in Japan, despite your impression of how little of it there was. The internet and being able to get all this knowledge of differnent makers from different parts of the country is still a recent thing, and I imagine that the way the shops sell is more traditional. Customers learn to trust the sellers, and the sellers find stuff to suit the customers, who return and don't know about all the obscure blacksmiths in far off towns. Another thing is that knife making and sales in Japan has traditionally been regional, and people in Tokyo wouldn't be buying Sakai Knives, nor people in Osaka buying stuff from other regions. And of course this is why different regions in Japan have different styles of knives or handles, or I think to some extent would even stick to the local natural stones in the old days.


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## Hbeernink (Feb 7, 2014)

Agree that online is always a better selection- but you should still go explore as there are many small shops that have some very cool stuff. There have been a couple of threads on the forum about kamata- I have one (a 210 mioroshi in white #2) and it's a fine knife with a nice grind and it has the "certified craftsman" serial number, and for the price I paid I consider it a great buy. 

Certainly go to tsukiji- masamoto tsukiji, sugimoto, and aritsugu have shops there and they have wa-handled double bevels


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## Lefty (Feb 7, 2014)

I'd worry less about getting the best knife for the best price, and just get what speaks to you. A huge part of getting a knife while in Japan is getting the knife while you were in Japan.  Seriously, don't force it, and don't overthink it. Play with some knives, and find the one that you want to take home. If the price is reasonable, get it, love it and remember how cool it was to find that little shop with the beaten floors, and helpful store owner from whom you purchased the knife. 

When I travel, I do just this thing, and I haven't ever felt stupid or like I should have gone with something online. Online is great, but not for the purpose you are after. When you hold the right piece, you'll know.


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## Hbeernink (Feb 7, 2014)

Lefty said:


> Play with some knives, and find the one that you want to take home. If the price is reasonable, get it, love it and remember how cool it was to find that little shop with the beaten floors, and helpful store owner from whom you purchased the knife.
> 
> When I travel, I do just this thing, and I haven't ever felt stupid or like I should have gone with something online. Online is great, but not for the purpose you are after. When you hold the right piece, you'll know.



What he said ^^^^^


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## apathetic (Feb 7, 2014)

Lefty said:


> I'd worry less about getting the best knife for the best price, and just get what speaks to you. A huge part of getting a knife while in Japan is getting the knife while you were in Japan.  Seriously, don't force it, and don't overthink it. Play with some knives, and find the one that you want to take home. If the price is reasonable, get it, love it and remember how cool it was to find that little shop with the beaten floors, and helpful store owner from whom you purchased the knife.
> 
> When I travel, I do just this thing, and I haven't ever felt stupid or like I should have gone with something online. Online is great, but not for the purpose you are after. When you hold the right piece, you'll know.



I have to agree with that lus1:


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## Hbeernink (Feb 7, 2014)

here are some other places you might want to find in tokyo - some are funky and crowded, and you may need to ask for specific things that you're looking for


Yoshizawa Riko 
Address: 2-6-12 Dogenzaka, Shibuya-ku, Tokyo
(5-minute walk from JR Shibuya Station)

moreihei (asakusa)
http://www.morihei.co.jp/english/index.html

kikusue (near keno station)
http://www.tokyo-ueno.jp/omise/shopping/50kikusue.html


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## Paradox (Feb 7, 2014)

Lefty said:


> I'd worry less about getting the best knife for the best price, and just get what speaks to you. A huge part of getting a knife while in Japan is getting the knife while you were in Japan.  Seriously, don't force it, and don't overthink it. Play with some knives, and find the one that you want to take home. If the price is reasonable, get it, love it and remember how cool it was to find that little shop with the beaten floors, and helpful store owner from whom you purchased the knife.
> 
> When I travel, I do just this thing, and I haven't ever felt stupid or like I should have gone with something online. Online is great, but not for the purpose you are after. When you hold the right piece, you'll know.



Ding, ding, ding! This approach will surely = a HUGE WIN!  Well put Lefty.


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## gavination (Feb 7, 2014)

So wise Lefty! This is exactly my aim for my trip to Japan.


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## wirth.jason (Feb 7, 2014)

I think everyone is right, the knife I get, regardless of the brand, will be special because the story it tells about my time in Japan, the shopping experience, etc. 


I'm in Tokyo for a while so I'm going to explore a bit and check out some of the other shops suggested, and def. Tsuikiji shops as well as the auction, to see what I like. Thanks for the recommendations! However, there's a little itch to get something quickly so I can hit up a super market and start cooking.  


Seeing various manufactures would be fun but I don't know that I'll make it down to Sakai, Kyoto or Osaka. Rather than by myself it would be really fun to go with knowledgable people and make an experience of it--travel, meet the makers, get a knife, then cook.


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## Hbeernink (Feb 7, 2014)

if you're there for a bit, you could pay a visit to Teruyasu Fujiwara as well- he has a storefront in tokyo. http://www.teruyasu.net/ 

have fun, and update us when you find "the one(s)"


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## insomniac (Feb 7, 2014)

Another vote for lefty's comment here.

You have a unique opportunity in Tokyo/Japan to buy something that is not being broadcasted and blasted in this forum. Not to say the knives recommended here aren't great--they are--but it is a bit of a waste for you to flight out there and buy something you would've ordered online domestically. Explore and enjoy it. Kama Asa was mentioned earlier - really great knives and tableware there and they take custom orders. I also own a Kamata myself which I bought completely randomly on one of my first trips to Tokyo (pretty shop, isn't it). Kappabashi is a somewhat more commercialized experience--Tsukiji has brick and mortar stores for a more unique experience and I highly recommend you pay a visit to Aritsugu Tsukiji as they've a ton of cool stuff in their stores which you can't find online.

have fun with it


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## gic (Feb 7, 2014)

I bought an Aritsugu A-Type in Tsujiki but passed on other knives there. I got a wonderful 360mm bread knife from Misono in Kappanbashi but didn't buy anythign else there.

I also found certain stones (choseras) and mass produced knives were ridiculously cheap on Amazon Japan and I bought a couple of Tojiro DP's to bring home as presents to introduce people to J knives. Also Stuart from Tools From Japan can ship you more exotic stone s to Japan and yo can save a lot on shipping.


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## panda (Feb 7, 2014)

get a Tsuikiji masamoto carbon gyuto and let us know how it is!


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## gic (Feb 7, 2014)

I thought about getting one of those but decided I'm just not that much of a carbon guy/ Still I'd love to know what someone thought of them


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## wirth.jason (Feb 8, 2014)

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions. It's been helpful to center my thoughts. It's important to keep in mind to use my opportunity to have fun and possibly venture off the beaten path in terms of brand. After all, nothing ventured, nothing gained. 

Originally I had two main knives in mind, but now that I think about it I might look to see what other stuff I could find and just buy what I like. To people's points, in reflection I wonder if subconsciously the importance of branch crept too much into my thinking. 

Walking around Kappabashi I saw tons of knives that looked quite respectable but were maybe slightly older and pushed away for new stock and thus heavily discounted. Perhaps thinking too much about the brand (and price) I over looked looked these knives. I might see what I can get that just look interesting, like pettys, debas, etc., and stone and have some fun. I bet the country is awash in little carbon treasures. 

BTW, anyone know if there is a limit to how many knives one can bring back? I Googled around a bit and didn't come up with anything substantive other than pack them safe in checked luggage, e.g. no carry-on. 

On a side note, there is one thing I'm a little disappointed about. My girlfriend's father was a chef/cook. Regrettably he passed away about 10 years ago. She told me stories about how every day he used to sharpen and polish his knives before work so I really wanted to see his knife collection. 

She asked her mother about his knives, her response, "Oh, those? I threw them away a long time ago. They were way too long and scary for me." I was shocked! The irony, her mother runs a bento shop, she cooks for a living! The second part to the story is that while her father was sharpening his knives everyday, he would scold her mother for not sharpening hers. "You are going to cook, you need to have sharp knives." <holding a dull knife> "Oh, it's OK, I don't need to sharpen it." Hahaha. Perhaps in the end everything is all relative.


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## apathetic (Feb 8, 2014)

wirth.jason said:


> BTW, anyone know if there is a limit to how many knives one can bring back? I Googled around a bit and didn't come up with anything substantive other than pack them safe in checked luggage, e.g. no carry-on.
> 
> On a side note, there is one thing I'm a little disappointed about. My girlfriend's father was a chef/cook. Regrettably he passed away about 10 years ago. She told me stories about how every day he used to sharpen and polish his knives



No real limit here, apart from your allocated weight for check in luggage.


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## Asteger (Feb 8, 2014)

wirth.jason said:


> BTW, anyone know if there is a limit to how many knives one can bring back? I Googled around a bit and didn't come up with anything substantive other than pack them safe in checked luggage, e.g. no carry-on.



Depends where you live! I suppose in almost any country it'd all depend on the value of the knives and whatever customs laws are in place. I worry that somewhere out there there's a customs agent that is a KKF member or something, who know's you're lying when you claim that honyaki is worth only $25.



wirth.jason said:


> "Oh, those? I threw them away a long time ago. They were way too long and scary for me."



Evil woman!


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## insomniac (Feb 8, 2014)

On my first trip to Japan where I actually bought knives, I brought back 9, but that was to Hong Kong (in 2010). No questions asked. I would only admit that on a forum like this though .

Happiness is relative!


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## gavination (Feb 8, 2014)

insomniac said:


> On my first trip to Japan where I actually bought knives, I brought back 9, but that was to Hong Kong (in 2010). No questions asked. I would only admit that on a forum like this though .
> 
> Happiness is relative!



What did you get??


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## insomniac (Feb 8, 2014)

now that I think about it, it was actually 10. it's been awhile and a lot of knives since. and about half of the ones I got that trip turned into gifts in my attempts to infect others with this hobby.

Tsukiji Masamoto Deba in blue #2
Tsukiji Masamoto Petty
Aritsugu Tsukiji Banno Bunka in blue #2
Aritsugu Tsukiji Kama Usuba in white #2
Kamata Nakiri in white #1
Sakai-made Yanagiba in blue #2 (&#22586;&#21619;&#27491; - don't really see it mentioned in this forum previously)
Nenohi Mioroshi Deba in white #2 (think I gave it away or I don't know where it is now)
Teruyasu Fujiwara Santoku (gave away)
There was some forest village maker promotion in one shop in Kappabashi where I distinctliy recall you had to walk up some steps in the back to reach from whom I bought a short Yanagiba. I gave it away and prob won't find out what it was anytime soon.
Last was what I THINK was a Sakai Takayuki Usuba from Union Commerce in white #2, but I've given that away too.

Looking back, seems I had the brilliance to not buy a single Gyuto, which I favor and am predominantly buying these days. guess that's life for you. I had some fascination at that point for traditional single bevels and katana-like knives (i.e. Yanagiba).


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## gic (Feb 9, 2014)

$800 retail into the us if you are a citizen, 3% duty on the first 1,000 after that


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## wirth.jason (Feb 18, 2014)

Well, I finally got something! Sorry for the wait, t's been a long time coming. My shopping has been blocked by freakishly heavy snow Tokyo, a national holiday, and a week-long bout with the flu. 

Last Friday my girlfriend and I went to meet her friend in Ikebukuro. We got there early and her friend was late so we walked around the Tobu department store to kill time. To my surprise they were having a showcase of various regional craftsmen making traditional Japanese goods; everything from hand-painted and hand-made plates and bowls, to kimono fabric to, brushes, to hand-carved wood goods. Luckily there was one knife maker. 

I didn't buy anything that day but was reminded of Lefty's advice about getting something one-of-a-kind while in Japan. Knives at Tsukiji, Kappabashi, etc. can be bought anytime. I thought to myself, "what are the chances of buying a knife from some an unknown regional manufacturer?", so I made it a point to go back today, the last day of the show, and buy something. 

The knives are branded "Yamagata Kaneichi" and the maker is Fumio Shimada. I got a business card but there's no website for the shop. The only mention about them from a website promoting various manufacturers from Yamagata prefecture in northern Japan.

http://mono-yamagata.jp/meister/06shimada.html

I walked away two knives, one nakiri about 150mm and one gyuto about 180mm (it's just an eyeball measurement). The nakiri is a single bevel knife with a black finish and cost 3,500 yen ($35 USD). This knife also has a recessed channel across the top. I've never seen it before. The lady said that it's to help food release. The gyuto is double bevel, with a hammered finish and blue steel core. It cost about 16,000 yen ($160 USD).

Initially I couldn't decide what to get. I wanted to get the nakiri because I like the black finish, wa-style handle, a single bevel (most of my knives are double bevel), and it's very light. I also liked the hand hammered knives but it was a lot more expensive and I have a couple other knives I'm shopping for and I didn't want to blow my budget. My girlfriend told me to buy the nakiri for myself and she would buy me the gyuto for my birthday, which is about a month away. Problem solved!

The fit and finish could be a bit better. The handle on the nakiri has a noticeable bump between the ferrule and the wood, which I think is fairly common for inexpensive handles. The handle on the gyuto is acceptable, but nothing to write home about. There was a blond colored handle made from a wild cherry blossom tree (it's somewhat rare so it costs 2,000 yen extra) but I like the black wood color and might get the knife re-handled at some point. 

The knives are adequately sharp out of the box but unfortunately a shop setup in a department store didn't have the token Ojiisan hand sharpening knives on a wet stone. I'll probably take them some place to get professionally sharpened while I'm in Japan.

In addition to these knives the shop had:
- mini-gyutos similar to the nakiri
- larger nakiris with the black finish
- pettys with the same hammered finish
- large nakiri with the hammered finish, the handle was different, it was round like a japanese handle but had two rivets attaching the handle to the tang.
- a bunch of debas and standard blue steel gyutos / santokus. 

On to the pictures!


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