# Micro bevel and stropping.



## steelcrimp (Jan 16, 2018)

Hello guys, I recently acquired a new stone. It was recommended to me buy a guy at my local knife store. It's the 1000 grit Oishi stone. Used it once today to sharpen my knife. The only other stone I have is a 1k/6k combo stone from Amazon thats terrible, so I decided to just finish on this 1k. 

I had a question on setting a micro bevel on one side but also stropping. Should I do some stropping on the 1k stone before I set in the micro bevel or should I only strop once the micro bevel is set? I also hear that some people only do stropping strokes while setting in the micro bevel. Would that mean I would say, do 10 strokes on the front side of the knife to get in a micro bevel, then do a couple strokes on the backside to remove the burr? How many times would I repeat that to get ride of the wire edge? I feel like I left my knife with a wire edge thats already curled over after one use.
Plus I totally ****** up and got scratches all over it :/.

Thanks guys


----------



## HRC_64 (Jan 16, 2018)

Make sure you are using very light pressure 
on the 1k to finish (if not already doing so).


----------



## steelcrimp (Jan 16, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> Make sure you are using very light pressure
> on the 1k to finish (if not already doing so).



I could definitely go lighter, thanks!


----------



## unprofessional_chef (Jan 16, 2018)

Jon gives a ton of information in his instructional videos...

[video=youtube;xwnFrjiAA_8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwnFrjiAA_8[/video]

"microbevel should only be done on the highest grit stone that we have" 1K stone is too course. Trying to create a microbevel using a 1K stone will roll over your edge. I wouldn't even bother stropping on 1K. I don't know why people are obsessed with 1K stones. It's always the first recommendation to people new to freehand sharpening that are looking to do light sharpening tasks. Sure they do quick work but you can't put a good finished edge on a knife with a 1K alone. 

Get a finishing stone or use the 6K side combo stone. Use controlled but light pressure. You also don't want to overwork the microbevel either. I would start with Jon's technique microbevel on one side, strop the other side. Then go from there.

You probably don't even need a microbevel just get a good finishing stone then learn how to strop both sides.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 16, 2018)

I would try not to worry about counting strokes and just try to pay attention more to feedback (feel and sound)


----------



## LucasFur (Jan 16, 2018)

unprofessional_chef said:


> "microbevel should only be done on the highest grit stone that we have" 1K stone is too course. You're trying to create a microbevel using a 1K stone would explain why your edge is rolling over. I wouldn't even bother to strop on 1K. I don't know why people are obsessed with 1K stones. Sure they do quick work but you can't put a finished edge on a knife with a 1K alone.



1. I personally really like 1K edges they have a great amount of bite when cutting food, especially if im doing a case of apples/ peppers/ tomatoes. 
2. why would it explain your edge rolling over with a 1K stone? ... edge rolling would be because of sharpening angle vs amount of abuse when using and steel quality vs hardness etc. 

I see you got the ikazuchi... fantastic knife. 
first, that knife scratches to **** easily, just use as you need and the mirror will soon turn mat finish, re-polish in the distant future if you want it perfect. 
second, stropping is an effective method to remove the burr, or put a micro-bevel nothing wrong with it at any time. 

A method i would be looking into if i were you. Do your sharpening/ edge thinning with the 1k, Use the knife. Then touch up with stropping motion with your 6k. Do these minor touchups with your 6k say 3-5 times. This way you can really see the edge difference between 1k and 6k. Go back to 1k for a full sharpening, and edge thinning. Repeat, learn where/how you like your edge. Learn how shallow/steep you like to have your edge before it rolls, micro-chips, feels too thin, Alternatively, where its cutting paper towel, but hard to push through food. 

Micro-bevel can be done with 6k if you want a smaller microbevel, just remember to sharpen the microbevel next time with the 1k. Or you have to thin the knife to remove the micro-bevel. If you want a larger micro-bevel spend more time with the 6k or use the 1k. again, be sure to either hit that microbevel when you sharpen again, or thin the knife to create a new microbevel. 

the knife is not "sharper" with the 6k its just more refined. sharp is 2 planes intersecting at a point, and the angle of that intersection. Watch Jon's videos, they are great, i especially like his Q&A section where people often ask about this very information your asking about.


----------



## steelcrimp (Jan 16, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> 1. I personally really like 1K edges they have a great amount of bite when cutting food, especially if im doing a case of apples/ peppers/ tomatoes.
> 2. why would it explain your edge rolling over with a 1K stone? ... edge rolling would be because of sharpening angle vs amount of abuse when using and steel quality vs hardness etc.
> 
> I see you got the ikazuchi... fantastic knife.
> ...



The Ikazuchi is nice, i love the whole feel to it. So I a did put a micro bevel on my knife, with the 1k. If I were to do touch ups on my knife with the 6k, would I be stropping at that high micro bevel angle, or just go through the same motions i did with putting the micro bevel in the first place?


----------



## LucasFur (Jan 16, 2018)

So just think about what your doing and what your trying to achieve. 
If you want to have a smoother progression from micro-bevel to primary bevel then strop at your sharpening angle and that "shoulder" will be taken down, Somewhat thinning behind the edge. 
If you want to simply touch up the edge, and remove steel to expose new metal at cutting edge use the same stropping angle to refresh the edge. 

This is why its important to do your own sharpening, so you can take your knife to the raggedy edge of what its capable of FOR YOU. There is no answer for 6k/1k/ bevel / strop 3 strokes/ turn around/ left hand/ hand stand. After 10 sharpening sessions you will learn what works for you and what doesn't. With no chips to be repaired and small burrs it should last 1000+ sharpening sessions. for some thats 3 years for some its a life time. 

*my opinion, others can disagree*


----------



## inzite (Jan 16, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> So just think about what your doing and what your trying to achieve.
> If you want to have a smoother progression from micro-bevel to primary bevel then strop at your sharpening angle and that "shoulder" will be taken down, Somewhat thinning behind the edge.
> If you want to simply touch up the edge, and remove steel to expose new metal at cutting edge use the same stropping angle to refresh the edge.
> 
> ...



woot laid the smackdown here lucas  well said!


----------



## LucasFur (Jan 16, 2018)

inzite said:


> woot laid the smackdown here lucas  well said!



It wasn't meant to be a smackdown in any way, shape or form. Especially for a new member, its meant to take the seriousness out of sharpening. 
Steelcrimp from i understand is well on his way to being comfortable with knife maintenance, just gotta encourage a little. 

Oh and SteelCrimp, the one error to avoid is the dreaded overgrind. where you sharpen the middle of the blade to a frown. once you get the blade flat on the cutting board it easily turns into a frown after a few sharpenings. Just watch out, you will see the knife getting flatter, that is your clue it might turn into a "frown." but the Ikazuchi has a nice "smile" curve, so your good for a little while. and when it happens, spend more time at the tip and heel of the blade.


----------



## steelcrimp (Jan 16, 2018)

LucasFur said:


> It wasn't meant to be a smackdown in any way, shape or form. Especially for a new member, its meant to take the seriousness out of sharpening.
> Steelcrimp from i understand is well on his way to being comfortable with knife maintenance, just gotta encourage a little.
> 
> Oh and SteelCrimp, the one error to avoid is the dreaded overgrind. where you sharpen the middle of the blade to a frown. once you get the blade flat on the cutting board it easily turns into a frown after a few sharpenings. Just watch out, you will see the knife getting flatter, that is your clue it might turn into a "frown." but the Ikazuchi has a nice "smile" curve, so your good for a little while. and when it happens, spend more time at the tip and heel of the blade.



I'm thankful for such an elaborate and detailed post! I get that sharpening is daunting because there are so many variables in sharpening. And I do realize this something that can only be learned by practice and repetition. Thanks for your tips and wisdom.


----------



## inferno (Jan 17, 2018)

unprofessional_chef said:


> "microbevel should only be done on the highest grit stone that we have" 1K stone is too course. Trying to create a microbevel using a 1K stone will roll over your edge. I wouldn't even bother stropping on 1K. I don't know why people are obsessed with 1K stones. It's always the first recommendation to people new to freehand sharpening that are looking to do light sharpening tasks. Sure they do quick work but you can't put a good finished edge on a knife with a 1K alone.



yeah a 1k is pretty coarse for kitchen knife imo. i use it when cutting rockwool with my knives.
A 2k is acceptable to me though. 1k not so much.


----------



## unprofessional_chef (Jan 17, 2018)

inferno said:


> yeah a 1k is pretty coarse for kitchen knife imo. i use it when cutting rockwool with my knives.
> A 2k is acceptable to me though. 1k not so much.



Yes, I think people have different definition of edge refinement. Also different tolerances for what is "acceptable" as a good edge. An edge made on my 2K Chosera is right on the border of being unacceptable. Anything under 2K won't put a good enough finished edge on a knife. The 2K edge will cut and slice anything. But there is still enough tearing and burr hanging around where I want to finish on a higher grit. I alway see Japanese knife makers go to a finishing stone to finish their knifes, in other words they never stop at 1K.

With a 1K stone you wouldn't call it a "micro" bevel. It's probably a "centi" or "milli" bevel at that point.


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Jan 17, 2018)

Lots and lots of conjecture on this page. should be marked with a BS warning. Good lord. You can't get a good edge with a 1K, then you don't know what a good edge is and or your sharpening skills need adjustments (other words come to mind). 

I remember ten years ago, I wanted to 20K finish on my knives. Everyone was looking for smaller and smaller grits synthetics in powders and sprays. Cracks me up. Sure you can get the knife as keen as a razor, but how long is that going to last in use. I've got 0.25 um sandpaper, good for polishing the Hubble space telescopes lens, not much else.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 17, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Lots and lots of conjecture on this page. should be marked with a BS warning. Good lord. You can't get a good edge with a 1K, then you don't know what a good edge is and or your sharpening skills need adjustments (other words come to mind).
> 
> I remember ten years ago, I wanted to 20K finish on my knives. Everyone was looking for smaller and smaller grits synthetics in powders and sprays. Cracks me up. Sure you can get the knife as keen as a razor, but how long is that going to last in use. I've got 0.25 um sandpaper, good for polishing the Hubble space telescopes lens, not much else.



So nice to hear a voice of reason...so true what you say (from experience).


----------



## unprofessional_chef (Jan 17, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Lots and lots of conjecture on this page. should be marked with a BS warning. Good lord. You can't get a good edge with a 1K, then you don't know what a good edge is and or your sharpening skills need adjustments (other words come to mind).



I think it's just the opposite. If you read my comments you'd understand why. I prefer more refined edge, all burr is removed and no tearing of food.

I never said anything about needing powders, sprays, 0.25 um sandpaper for a good edge. I've always said a good finishing stone (3K to 6K) will do the job.

Maybe with your vast experience, you can educate me why all Japanese knife makers and sharpeners finish on a fine/finishing stone? Why don't they just stop at 1K?

If any grit above 1K isn't needed why are they sold?

Do you create your microbevels on 1K?

Do think there is another level of edge refinement above 1K that performs better than 1K?

The burrs left by 1K stones are so noticeable and hard to remove they feel like the edge is rolled over. Honestly, I think you're stropping on leather after 1K. To say 1K is all you need to put a great edge on a knife is completely false. Lets not get too defensive or attack my credibility again. I'd like to hear legitimate answers.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 17, 2018)

You didn't read his post. He didn't say you don't need an edge above 1k...he said you can get a good edge with 1k. If you can't remove a burr from a 1k stone them you just need to practice. I know he doesn't fish his knives with a 1k stone but I also know that his 1k edge is pretty killer...


----------



## unprofessional_chef (Jan 17, 2018)

chinacats said:


> You didn't read his post. He didn't say you don't need an edge above 1k...he said you can get a good edge with 1k. If you can't remove a burr from a 1k stone them you just need to practice. I know he doesn't fish his knives with a 1k stone but I also know that his 1k edge is pretty killer...



I did read his post and yours. Neither of you have provided any legitimate explanations for why people should finish their knives on 1K? Both of you have been deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying and attacking my credibility and skill level then passing that off as answers.

I never said I couldn't remove the burr at 1K. I said it's difficult to remove and can't be completely removed cleanly.

I've spent many years refining my technique and studying informational videos like Jon's. I don't simply accept old wives tales or long accepted internet rumor spread far and wide, I've spent countless hours listening testing theories techniques and evaluating their legitimacy. I am highly critical of my edges and techniques.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 17, 2018)

I'm not attacking your credibility or your skills, I'm telling you what we both said and neither of us said you should finish your knives at 1k. Please reread the above posts...if you just want to argue send me a pm...op don't need this **** as it's not helping him or the thread.


----------



## Benuser (Jan 19, 2018)

unprofessional_chef said:


> Yes, I think people have different definition of edge refinement. Also different tolerances for what is "acceptable" as a good edge. An edge made on my 2K Chosera is right on the border of being unacceptable. Anything under 2K won't put a good enough finished edge on a knife. The 2K edge will cut and slice anything. But there is still enough tearing and burr hanging around where I want to finish on a higher grit. I alway see Japanese knife makers go to a finishing stone to finish their knifes, in other words they never stop at 1K.
> 
> With a 1K stone you wouldn't call it a "micro" bevel. It's probably a "centi" or "milli" bevel at that point.



The Chosera 2k is a bit aggressive, so a complete deburring isn't easy. Very useful to reduce a 400 burr, but after it a few strokes on a finer one are needed. A Belgian Blue or a Coticule with their smooth particles excel at it.


----------



## StonedEdge (Jan 19, 2018)

1k properly deburred with care on any kitchen knife is more than acceptable. 1k hard to deburr? Huh? How huge is the burr you're raising? Assuming we're talking about sharpening something like a gyuto, where do you people get these crazy ideas?

That said, I choose to go higher most of the time (4-5k tops on gyutos unless finishing on a jnat) but if I had only a 1k stone, it would work and the final edge would be much, much more than just passable or acceptable. Heck, I could probably get away with an 800grit synth.


----------



## HRC_64 (Jan 19, 2018)

I agree this explanation doesn't make sense if the context is "I only sharpen on 400, but I need 8K to deburr properly"
At some stage, that's not de-burring--its edge refinement.


----------



## Benuser (Jan 20, 2018)

When deburring on the finest stones I skip stropping on them in order to keep some bite.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 21, 2018)

Am I seeing ghosts or can the chosera 400 or a similarly fast stone , even with very light pressure, raise a new burr on some steels in a single edge trailing stroke if the edge is already very smooth and at the angle you are trailing at? Just wondering why some knives seemingly CAN'T be deburred on the coarse stone no matter how light the pressure...


----------



## Benuser (Jan 21, 2018)

I don't like stropping or deburring on the coarsest stone I have started with, often the Chosera 400, but a fortiori with an even coarser one. I prefer to let intact the oblique scratch pattern, and strop and deburr on the next one, in my case the Chosera 800 or 2000. But before I can reduce the 400 burr by stropping in small portions on cardboard or split leather.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 21, 2018)

@Benuser so you do not test the edge after you are finished with the coarsest stone, before progressing?


----------



## Benuser (Jan 21, 2018)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Benuser so you do not test the edge after you are finished with the coarsest stone, before progressing?



Wouldn't know what I had to test. Have raised a burr on both sides, so the bevels do meet. All I need to be sure of.


----------



## HRC_64 (Jan 21, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Wouldn't know what I had to test. Have raised a burr on both sides, so the bevels do meet. All I need to be sure of.



Burrs are conventionally tested to maintain evenness (correct profile) 
and minimal size (for knife life)...maybe its just being overlooked or not spelled out.


----------



## Benuser (Jan 21, 2018)

Of course. Part of the sharpening, not of some testing afterwards. After deburring on finer stones I test on the thinnest cigarette paper for size and eventually absence of burr, by looking at the evenness of the cut and hearing the sound it makes.


----------



## chinacats (Jan 21, 2018)

Benuser just stated one of the most overlooked aspects...the sound is crucial to understanding your edge.


----------

