# Hydraulic press more dangerous than power hammer?



## Noah (Dec 19, 2016)

I've been considering building either a power hammer or a hydraulic press.

I was looking at the amazon preview of a book by Bladesmithing with Murray Carter: Modern Application of Traditional Techniques and he surprised me with the assertion that a press is much more dangerous than a power hammer, talking about severely deformed hands and fingers. But he doesn't give any details of how it ends up being so much more dangerous.

On first glance this is hard to understand. From what I gather, you're feeding your billet into the machine by a welded rebar that's being held by a pair of tongs much like you would to a power hammer. How do your hands get munched?

I like the idea of a press a lot because it'd be quieter and I'd be using it in a residential neighborhood. It also looks to take less room in the shop from what I gather, which is a big plus as space is at a premium.

Experienced thoughts and guidance on this would be much appreciated!


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## jessf (Dec 19, 2016)

That carter guy is like the dwight schrute of bladesmiths.


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

I'm not really familiar with the series, but I gather by watching a bit of it on youtube that the reference means he's a bit of a try-hard buffoon?

Shall I then assume that you were saying his idea about the relative danger of presses is um...not the best possible advice? :scratchhead:


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## WillC (Dec 20, 2016)

Just get two of each, and a rolling mill to be sure


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

Hah! My neighbor likes me, but I'm guessing she'll think a bit less of me when I knock the wall out between our garages to make room for all that.


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## chefcomesback (Dec 20, 2016)

Hydraulic press has lot smaller footprint than a powerhammer and lot easier to install too , just saying [emoji12]


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> Hydraulic press has lot smaller footprint than a powerhammer and lot easier to install too , just saying [emoji12]



Yeah, that was the impression I was getting. Thanks for the verification.

Is there any truth at all to this "more dangerous" bit? I'm no nervous Nelly about power tools, but if there's some additional danger I'd want to know about it so I can work safely and avoid unnecessary carnage. (I will, of course, be doing quite a bit more reading on design and use during the building process.)


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## malexthekid (Dec 20, 2016)

Pretty sure you put any part of you in either of those things the result aint good.


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## chefcomesback (Dec 20, 2016)

Noah said:


> Yeah, that was the impression I was getting. Thanks for the verification.
> 
> Is there any truth at all to this "more dangerous" bit? I'm no nervous Nelly about power tools, but if there's some additional danger I'd want to know about it so I can work safely and avoid unnecessary carnage. (I will, of course, be doing quite a bit more reading on design and use during the building process.)



Personally I think the danger is more about human behaviour of getting too comfortable and used to things to ignore the dangers of it , I find powerhammer more to be dangerous, if
You fall and hit the pedal it will keep
Hitting until the pedal is lifted , you will pray none of your body parts are on the anvil 
Most presses have an inch or two moving rate per second and they are usually placed higher . In another words don't believe in anything you read [emoji51][emoji6]


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> Personally I think the danger is more about human behaviour of getting too comfortable and used to things to ignore the dangers of it , I find powerhammer more to be dangerous, if
> You fall and hit the pedal it will keep
> Hitting until the pedal is lifted , you will pray none of your body parts are on the anvil
> Most presses have an inch or two moving rate per second and they are usually placed higher . In another words don't believe in anything you read [emoji51][emoji6]



Makes sense. Thank you.


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## chefcomesback (Dec 20, 2016)

Noah said:


> Makes sense. Thank you.



Pleasure, is there any makers near by you to visit ? You can see lots of things In person and it will make it easier for you to understand the process


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## Noah (Dec 20, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> Pleasure, is there any makers near by you to visit ? You can see lots of things In person and it will make it easier for you to understand the process



Yeah, I have a couple of friends who have said they'd introduce me to their maker friends in the near future. For now just doing some preliminary study and planning.


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## HHH Knives (Dec 20, 2016)

Not sure what Murry was saying. BUT. I believe it may have more to do with the actual hydraulics themselves. The system is under emence pressure. and if faulty or not put together properly with the right components. Or if the components fail due to overheating from the forging process itself, etc. etc. etc. Many things that could go wrong.. It can and will hurt you more then getting you hand in the way of either a press or hammer. IMO. High Pressure hydro fluid cutting its way through flesh is a really bad thing. Really BAD 

Just my 2 cents. Take it for what its worth. 

I do agree with Chef that the footprint as much smaller. But if your goal is to forge finished blades. a hammer is a better tool. Both serve a purpose. and do there jobs well.
Press is loud, But a different kind of loud then a hammer. SO if ya have neighbors. a hammer is probably not gona fly for long. lol 

Blessings and Good luck on your journey. 
Randy


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## Kippington (Dec 21, 2016)

I have the book somewhere and I was under the impression(!) Carter was talking about a blanking punch/punch cutters rather then the other slower presses.

[video=youtube;fZ_mW51jNEw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ_mW51jNEw[/video]

He mentions that you can lose a hand real quick in one of these and refuses to have one in his shop, choosing to use shears instead (shown at 8:20 in this next video)

[video=youtube;B7Izy9a9m8k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Izy9a9m8k[/video]

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Meanwhile, this is the hydraulic press that everyone in this thread is talking about:

[video=youtube;6bFFlglDsps]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bFFlglDsps[/video]


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## Noah (Dec 21, 2016)

Kippington said:


> I have the book somewhere and I was under the impression(!) Carter was talking about a blanking punch/punch cutters rather then the other slower presses.
> 
> He mentions that you can lose a hand real quick in one of these and refuses to have one in his shop, choosing to use shears instead (shown at 8:20 in this next video)



Not sure. I was under the impression he was talking about the sort blade smiths use for drawing out a billet, forge welding, etc., but I could have misunderstood. Here's the quote and the picture beside it:

(from page 20) *The really nasty machines: hydraulic and mechanical flywheel presses*
I don't use hydraulic or flywheel presses in my shop. They are excellent time savers and an incredibly efficient machine for industry but they MAIM FOR LIFE. Every severely deformed hand and finger of my bladesmithing brothers has been caused by these beasts. Not for me, thank you very much!


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## WillC (Dec 21, 2016)

Its a mechanical press. That one is set up with a cold notching die. Think of it as an old fashioned Metalworker machine which you set up for one thing. They have a fast action due to the flywheel..These are used in Japan primarily for trimming, think cold shearing...to tweak the profile/tang. They are as safe or dangerous as you set them up to be. If used unguarded with bare finger holding the work, its an issue with heath and safety rather than the machine. 
However this type of press is nothing like a small Hydraulic forging press. You'll find plenty of examples of those on you tube. Ive been using hammers and hydraulic presses of various variety for 17 years, on the whole Ive had more moments with presses, but its always been when working cold, once I got my thumb stuck between a piece of 100mm square and the machine as the curve came up as I was working it, was a narrow escape, suffered just a bruise. Another time working on a 200 ton horizontal press a piece of the curving Jig backing plate exploded, it tuned out the plate I used was hardened steel fortunately no one was injured. So presses can surprise you more, the pressures can be huge and you need to be aware of what your doing, but as I say this was cold work in large 100mm plus square sections......Never had any issues regarding forging /punching holes or any other type of hot work you might use a press for. With hammers the dangers are more obvious and dictate clear guide lines.....Never change the dies with the hammer running and unchocked ram, always use tongs or an extension bar, be very aware of what your doing if you use special tooling in the hammer and when you do make it for purpose, don't just hold a bar in there as a fuller etc etc etc..... And of course wear you gear glasses and ear protection.


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## Noah (Dec 21, 2016)

Thanks for the clarification and the tips. 

I'll certainly do what I can to create and maintain a safe working space. I'm rather fond of my limbs, and generally prefer to keep the majority of my blood where it belongs...


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## jessf (Dec 21, 2016)

A buffing wheel is likely the most commonly dangerous tool in my shop. Wear a proper 3m mask too. I do this all the time even if im doing nothing that i think creates dust.


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## Noah (Dec 21, 2016)

jessf said:


> A buffing wheel is likely the most commonly dangerous tool in my shop. Wear a proper 3m mask too. I do this all the time even if im doing nothing that i think creates dust.



Sounds like a good policy. I've had the misfortune of inhaling a bit of dust from the same building as a metal-shop a couple of times when it got stirred up unexpectedly and I didn't have a mask on. Not fun.


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