# Large Nakiri or Chinese Cleaver?



## deskjockey (Dec 23, 2017)

I see a lot of forum love professed for 180mm and larger Nakiri. How do these differ from something like a CM4030 Sugimoto Chinese Cleaver? Is it just a ~60mm versus ~95 blade height difference and the Wa handle? I can see some have a few subtle differences in the blade edge geometry but, there are a lot of thin Chinese Cleavers to choose from beyond the cheap mass produced Asian market models (or even CCK's). Sure they are a bit heavier but, so is a large Nakiri compared to a 165mm model.

With something like the CM4030 Sugimoto or Suien Virgin Carbon Steel costing ~$150, I'm wondering why I don't see more forum traffic about them.

TIA!


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## Matus (Dec 23, 2017)

I still need to try a Chinese cleaver, but I would expect it to be better for pull slicing than an oversized nakiri. But that is just my naive expectation.


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## Jkts (Dec 23, 2017)

Nakiris and cleavers have very different actions due to geometry and weight. 

A cleaver is thicker and heavier. In cutting, you can use its weight and gravity to chop through to the board. You lift and drop with a quick rhythm. The weight gives you good control. Cleavers can be thinned and very sharp which make them even more efficient. They can be used as slicers. 

Nakiris are thinner and lighter, with little wedging because the edge is sharpened flat to match the face of the blade. You use that sharpness to slice or push cut to the board in a methodical motion, with minimal force required.

By chopping, I mean cutting straight down and by slicing, having more horizontal motion.

Both knives are great. There are cleaver specialists who can do just about anything with a cleaver. There are also folks here who like to use nakiris as choppers.

Once in search of the ultimate thin cleaver, I had a nakiri made in the shape of a cleaver (220 x 110). Although it is a large blade, it didnt have the heft of even a light cleaver, and ended up being more of a slicer.


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## Matus (Dec 23, 2017)

Jkts, I though Chinese cleavers were rather thin. I guess I need to look into them more


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## Jkts (Dec 23, 2017)

Matus said:


> Jkts, I though Chinese cleavers were rather thin. I guess I need to look into them more



The vegetable cleavers are thinner and lighter than cleavers that can cut bones. Nakiris are even thinner. A lot of the weight in a cleaver is back toward the spine.


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## Jkts (Dec 23, 2017)

I guess its all relative. A Chinese vegetable cleaver is definitely lighter/thinner than western cleavers, but the weight element applies. 

Two of my cleavers (hattori and watanabe) weigh around 540 grams. A 210 watanabe nakiri (similar length) weighs 316 grams.


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## chinacats (Dec 23, 2017)

Cleaver=chef's knife
Nakiri=vegetable knife

My take is that a cleaver can do a bit of everything where a nakiri is more task specific.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 23, 2017)

Just get the Sujimoto Cm4030. It is one of the better stainless cleavers out there. User friendly steel easy to sharpen. It has some weight to it, being a vegetable cleaver it is fairly thin behind the edge. 

One thing about cleavers is there is more room spine to cutting edge for a grind to develop. Some cleavers have thick spines & thin all the way to the edge. I have seen all kinds of cleaver geometry most carbon blades. The Suji 4030 is a good choice to explore the capabilities of a cleaver. The more you use it the better you get.


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## deskjockey (Dec 23, 2017)

So there is no confusion with my intentions, I am specifically asking about a *thin vegetable cleaver vs. a large Nakiri*, not a heavy cleaver meant to be used around bones or the even thicker American and European cleavers a lumberjack could use to delimb a downed tree.

Playing with a standard Nakiri, it certainly seems fast and effortless on small vegetables. However, I found the height to be insufficient for what I wanted. If I'm making an omelette, egg scramble of some sort, or a stew, I like to scoop up the cut up stuff for the pot or skillet with the cutting tool. I also will apply pressure to the spine to help force the knife through cold carrots or something similar if I'm not in the mood to give it a good whack and knock stuff off my cutting board (smaller home kitchen and mid-size cutting board at the moment).

So, the large Nakiri are basically super thin all the way to the spine and thin Chinese Vegetable cleavers are thicker at the spine for more weight while being similarly thin at the edge and part way up the blade face until it joins the spine with the Nakiri being about 60% the weight of a thin Chinese cleaver.


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## deskjockey (Dec 23, 2017)

keithsaltydog said:


> Just get the Sujimoto Cm4030. It is one of the better stainless cleavers out there. User friendly steel easy to sharpen. It has some weight to it, being a vegetable cleaver it is fairly thin behind the edge.
> 
> One thing about cleavers is there is more room spine to cutting edge for a grind to develop. Some cleavers have thick spines & thin all the way to the edge. I have seen all kinds of cleaver geometry most carbon blades. The Suji 4030 is a good choice to explore the capabilities of a cleaver. The more you use it the better you get.



How is food release? Thin potatoes for breakfast stick tenasciously to my cheap cleaver and Santoku and either push off the top or I have to stop and scrape them off which irks me a good bit.

Are there any other thin vegetable Chinese cleavers I should consider or is the Sugimoto CM4030 the 'best' ~$150 thin vegetable cleaver available today? I should say that the blade profile pictures look good and I really like the larger grooved handle.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 23, 2017)

I just put my Suji on the scales it is 320g so not a heavy weight it is a vegetable cleaver not thick in the spine. Food release like potatoes not that good slices will stick to the edge if that is a major issue. You can try a carbon cleaver the CCK 1303 is a popular choice. 

My cutting board near to the stove often use it to transfer food to the skillet. Also use it for some duties don't want to use my thin carbon blades. If have to chop stuff cleaver is a no brainer.

There are a lot of crappy stainless cleavers. The CM 3040 is one of the better vegetable blades. Best price on Rakutan. The CCK 1303 is available for around 60.00. So you are not out a lot of coin if you do not like cleavers. Some people take to cleavers like a Duck in water. Others do not like them. 

You can probably find a larger size Nikiri with a good grind that will fall through food.


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## Jkts (Dec 23, 2017)

The cm 3040 is a smaller size cleaver with a height around 95 mm according to the specs. You could also go for a regular size cleaver. 

By comparison a 180 mm watanabe nakiri weighs about 186 grams and is about 57 mm high.

You might go for the cleaver and see if you like it. Probably need a heavier cutting board, that can absorb the impact and not move around on the counter.


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## chinacats (Dec 23, 2017)

deskjockey said:


> So there is no confusion with my intentions, I am specifically asking about a *thin vegetable cleaver vs. a large Nakiri*, not a heavy cleaver meant to be used around bones or the even thicker American and European cleavers a lumberjack could use to delimb a downed tree.
> 
> Playing with a standard Nakiri, it certainly seems fast and effortless on small vegetables. However, I found the height to be insufficient for what I wanted. If I'm making an omelette, egg scramble of some sort, or a stew, I like to scoop up the cut up stuff for the pot or skillet with the cutting tool. I also will apply pressure to the spine to help force the knife through cold carrots or something similar if I'm not in the mood to give it a good whack and knock stuff off my cutting board (smaller home kitchen and mid-size cutting board at the moment).
> 
> So, the large Nakiri are basically super thin all the way to the spine and thin Chinese Vegetable cleavers are thicker at the spine for more weight while being similarly thin at the edge and part way up the blade face until it joins the spine with the Nakiri being about 60% the weight of a thin Chinese cleaver.



Unless you specify otherwise, most talk about cleavers here refers to veg. slicers. Your last statement may apply to a specific cleaver or nakiri but is a generalization that would just as likely be incorrect as correct depending on the specific knives. Both have a tremendous range of styles depending on maker and model.


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## Noodle Soup (Dec 23, 2017)

Given this is Kitchen Knife Forums I think the logical answer is try both. I certainly keep both styles. in my block. And cleavers come in a wide range of sizes and weights for different jobs. Nakiri are more about whether you like a 165mm or 180mm but they are great for small chopping and dicing tasks.


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## jaybett (Dec 24, 2017)

Their are two general sizes of cleavers. Small intended for home use and full size better suited to a pro kitchen. Some forum members who work in restaurants prefer small cleaver and a home user like myself enjoys a full size cleaver. As always it comes down to preference. 

The Sugimoto is a small cleaver. The Suien cleaver is full size. If a person likes using a nakiri, then its not that big of a leap to small cleaver. A full size cleaver 210mm and up, are a different beast.

Larger and heavier cleavers require good technique. A large cleaver cannot be manhandled. Well it can, but not for long. It takes time to get comfortable using a full size cleaver. It was probably three months before I felt comfortable with the technique, and a few months after that were cleavers were just another knife and not a huge knife that could inflict great bodily harm. Some people even those who are comfortable with small cleavers never make the transition over to a full size one. 

The large surface area of cleavers means food will stick to them. My cleavers that are thin at the spine are the worst for potatoes. A past forum member use to say that he knew where the food was he prepped with a cleaver. 

Jay


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## fatboylim (Dec 25, 2017)

The two I loved were:

CCK 1303 cleaver, both cheap and a decent knife and only for about $65. 

Toyama 210 Nakiri beast! A lot of fun if you like cleavers or taller knives!


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## scott.livesey (Dec 25, 2017)

deskjockey said:


> How is food release? Thin potatoes for breakfast stick tenasciously to my cheap cleaver and Santoku and either push off the top or I have to stop and scrape them off which irks me a good bit.
> 
> Are there any other thin vegetable Chinese cleavers I should consider or is the Sugimoto CM4030 the 'best' ~$150 thin vegetable cleaver available today? I should say that the blade profile pictures look good and I really like the larger grooved handle.



find what fits your hand best. look at knife forum for sale areas and see if one you like is available. potatoes sticking to a blade has nothing to do with the blade. on numerous occasions, I have sliced and chopped the last potatoes in the bag and had every piece stick. opened a different bag, and sliced half dozen potatoes and had not one piece stick. go figure.


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## deskjockey (Dec 26, 2017)

scott.livesey said:


> find what fits your hand best. look at knife forum for sale areas and see if one you like is available. potatoes sticking to a blade has nothing to do with the blade. on numerous occasions, I have sliced and chopped the last potatoes in the bag and had every piece stick. opened a different bag, and sliced half dozen potatoes and had not one piece stick. go figure.



Some potatoes are 'wetter' than others. The wet ones certainly stick worse.


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## mlau (Dec 30, 2017)

I'll drop this rock into the water.....custom Calton Chinese Cleaver.

My Chinese cleaver has a blade of 220 mm x 63 mm and weighs around 216 g.
IMHO, I've never found anything that a Nakiri can do that a Chinese Cleaver can't do MUCH better.
However, I'm classically trained in the Chinese style. 

If you have a local chinatown, go find a place that sells only to Chinese chefs.
The knives will be cheap. Fit and finish horrible. Heat treat and steel questionable.
However, you will find a blade that is comfortable, well balanced, and sharp...and you will be happy.

If you're not happy, you'll be out maybe $20-30.


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