# stones for a starter



## gollux (May 4, 2020)

A few months ago I bought my first serious knife with extensive (and invaluable!) guidance from this forum: a Kurosaki Shizuku R2 Gyuto (240mm). I think it's time for me to get a set of sharpening stones. I've had a read around the forum, but I'm a bit confused by the options - so I thought I'd reach out here looking for advice.

For the last few years I've been using an Edge Pro Apex jig (with upgraded shapton glass stones) to sharpen a couple of Tojiro VG10 knives. However, around the time I bought the Kurosaki, I was convinced by people on here that I should learn freehand sharpening in order to get the best out of the knife. Due to my experience with the Edge Pro, I have some familiarity with sharpening basics, but I'm starting out pretty fresh.

Price is a consideration, of course, but I'm inclined to spend a bit more now for something that I'll be happy with for a while. (I'm located in Australia, if that makes a difference.) I know it's a pretty vague request, but I would be grateful for any advice!


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## madelinez (May 4, 2020)

All the good stones are decent unless you're looking for very specific qualities like polishing. Personally I could survive just using a King Hyper 1000 and a diamond flattening plate. I like k&s for stones in Australia.









Atoma Diamond Stone Flattening Plate Coarse (140 Grit)


This is a 140 girt Atoma diamond plate made specifically for stone flattening. I previously use a regular diamond plate without the handle to flatten my waterstone, while Atoma does not stick as much as other stones due to how its abrasive dots are aligned, it still does stick, especially when...




www.knivesandstones.com.au












King Hyper 1000 Sharpening Water Stone


The new King Hyper sharpening stone line, brought to you by Knives and Stones




www.knivesandstones.com.au





Alternatively the shapton glass series is nice and low maintenance, splash and go as well. They're a little more convenient and the SG500 is a great stone, I've heard less positive feedback about the higher grit series.


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## inferno (May 5, 2020)

my faves are the shapton pros and glass. the pro 1 and 2k are nice, and the glass from 500 up to 4k is very good imo. i like these more than the naniwa pros/choseras i have tried.

i also have the hyper 1k (hard). and its my only remaining soaker. quite good but not as good (for me at least) as the shaptons. or the naniwas. its just different i guess and i prefer the other ones.

it takes ages to dry too. over a week.


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## KingShapton (May 6, 2020)

inferno said:


> my faves are the shapton pros and glass. the pro 1 and 2k are nice, and the glass from 500 up to 4k is very good imo.


Agree 100%. I have to ad the Shapton Glass 6000 is also a really good stone.


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## Malcolm Johnson (May 6, 2020)

Gesshin xl 1k stone is really amazing as well and gives huge value. Pair that with the Gesshin diamond plate for flattening and you’ll be pretty solid for a beginner


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## Malcolm Johnson (May 6, 2020)

Oh, or the Gesshin 2k. That stone gives a finer edge than a 1k but cuts about as fast


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## Nemo (May 6, 2020)

Do you want soakers or splash and go?


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## Helmore (May 6, 2020)

KingShapton said:


> Agree 100%. I have to ad the Shapton Glass 6000 is also a really good stone.


You're not allowed to not like the Shaptons, with a name like KingShapton...

Also, do you have a crown made of Shapton stones? Just curious.

On topic: I'm a total newbie when it comes to freehand sharpening. (My own thread asking for advice is pretty much right below this one.) From what I've gathered, for a starting stone any 1000 grit stone from any of the big name brands will do. (I.e. King, Suehiro/Cerax, Shapton, Naniwa, Imanishi Bester, etc.) Having something to flatten your stones is also needed, but here there are loads and loads of options. The main reason people recommend getting an Atoma is for quality, ease of use and with it you'll practically be set for life. After that is up to you.

Also important, like Nemo asked, soakers or splash 'n go? Again, no experience with a soaker, but I'm of the opinion that for someone starting out a splash 'n go is more convenient. You're more likely to just grab that/those splash 'n go stone(s) and have a go at sharpening, as preparation and clean up is quicker and easier. That makes it more likely you'll use them more frequently and practice means a lot with free hand sharpening.

All that said, I need to reiterate that I'm a total newbie here. I hope you'll find what you're looking for though.

P.S. Is there a master list of what are perma-soakers, what are soakers, what are wet splash 'n go's and what are quick wet 'n go's?


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## kayman67 (May 6, 2020)

Well, sometimes different people find different stones not to be in a particular category. 

Starting with a stone that's capable of reacting fast enough, is the key. Usually this means a softer soaking stone. Also, things work differently than you might imagine, as being too less involving is a downside. 

Sigma Select II 1000 is a stone most people neglect in general (and all Sigma stones for that matter). Due to its price, not really a stone to start with, but if that's not an issue... 

It has all the qualities of a soaking stone and reacts well, but if needed, requires little soaking for easy touch-ups (just under running water), doesn't care for any special treatment while drying and cuts pretty much anything you might ever have. 

Anyway, just something to consider.


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## KingShapton (May 6, 2020)

Helmore said:


> Also, do you have a crown made of Shapton stones? Just curious.


No crown - the answer is simple, I start sharpening with Kings, later i really bought a lot of stones and compared them with each other - the Shaptons impressed me the most, so I stay with Shaptons. Still, I still have a set of King Hypers on hand ..


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## Helmore (May 6, 2020)

The Sigma Select II 1000 is easy to get in Europe, but what about in Australia? I imagine that buying it at say, fine-tools.com and having it shipped to Australia would make the total cost around 162 AUD. The shipping cost can be a bit more reasonable if you order more than one article of course. It's €39 for 2 kg to Australia via DHL Express from fine-tools.com, no matter if you order 0.6 or 1.9 kg. Dictum.de is even more expensive. Also, returning something at such shipping costs/distances would be rather prohibitive.

Also, at €57 for the Sigma, you enter a price range with a lot of options. That's actually the high end for 1000 grit water stones. King, Cerax, Shapton, Imanishi etc are all cheaper at that grit.

That actually bring up budget. Is there a fixed budget you're not willing to go over? Or is it enough as long as it seems like a reasonable value proposition? The other question is of course, how comfortable are you with ordering internationally?


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## IronBalloon (May 6, 2020)

Do you guys all recommend a flattening plate or stone as an immediate purchase?

I found the shapton glass series to be pretty hard so it’s not wearing away at any real pace.

Might be enough displacement across the surface to mess with a single bevel but I’ve only got doubles and they’re still working well. I’ve got a lapping stone that I clean up the stones with every so often.


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## gollux (May 6, 2020)

Wow, thanks for all the responses. This is hugely useful. A few people have posed questions in response, so I'll respond individually - so this doesn't get too confusing.


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## gollux (May 6, 2020)

inferno said:


> my faves are the shapton pros and glass. the pro 1 and 2k are nice, and the glass from 500 up to 4k is very good imo. i like these more than the naniwa pros/choseras i have tried.
> 
> i also have the hyper 1k (hard). and its my only remaining soaker. quite good but not as good (for me at least) as the shaptons. or the naniwas. its just different i guess and i prefer the other ones.
> 
> it takes ages to dry too. over a week.



Since I'm pretty new to this, I'm curious to know: what do you prefer about the shaptons / naniwas to the hyper, apart from the convenience of not having to wait a week for the stone to dry? Is it the feel of the knife on the stone? The finish it gives? Or something else?

With my Edge Pro, I have a few shaptons and one that's not. I can definitely feel the difference in feel during sharpening, and I suppose the shaptons also work more quickly. But I'm trying to figure out whether there are other factors that matter!


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## gollux (May 6, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Do you want soakers or splash and go?



At this point, I really have no idea. I was thinking splash and go for convenience? But kayman67 suggests that a soft soaker is likely to react more quickly. I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds useful! I'm sorry I'm so ignorant here: which do you think I should prefer?


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## gollux (May 6, 2020)

Helmore said:


> All that said, I need to reiterate that I'm a total newbie here. I hope you'll find what you're looking for though.



There's a lot here, but I just want to say: thanks for this summary of what you've figured out so far. Exactly the sort of thing I was looking for!


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## gollux (May 6, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Starting with a stone that's capable of reacting fast enough, is the key.



This is really useful, thanks. Maybe this is a dumb question, but: what does "reacting fast enough" mean here? Is it about the speed with which the stone cuts or something else?


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## gollux (May 6, 2020)

Helmore said:


> That actually bring up budget. Is there a fixed budget you're not willing to go over? Or is it enough as long as it seems like a reasonable value proposition? The other question is of course, how comfortable are you with ordering internationally?



I don't have a fixed budget in mind: it doesn't seem like any of the possibilities are totally crazy, so I'm open to anything as long as it seems like a reasonable value. I'd like to get a set of stones that I'll be happy with for a while, and that will be a pleasure to use. I'm totally comfortable ordering internationally if it's a reputable seller.


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## IronBalloon (May 6, 2020)

I believe the big difference between stones is how much slurry they build, how fast they cut, and how hard they are. The harder the stone the slower it dishes but conversely the less slurry they release.

I got my shapton glass 2k two years ago maybe, a year and a half. It’s not showing much wear. But then I’m just a home cook, with a small collection of knives.


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## gollux (May 6, 2020)

Ok, having thought through all these responses, I realized that there are two basic questions I didn't ask explicitly:

1) What sort of progression should I be looking to get? E.g. a three stone progression (coarse, medium, fine) or something more / less?

2) What else besides stones and a flattening plate do I need to get going? Do I need a stone holder? A conditioning stone? Or just my bare hands?

Thanks again to everyone!


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## IronBalloon (May 6, 2020)

The bare minimum will be a medium stone; you can use this to maintain your edge just fine. Medium grit finishes can be fairly toothy so whilst they’ll cut well and be very usable it won’t be highly polished or refined.

A fine stone will pair nicely, and would be your finishing stone. Your Kurosaki will take a more refined edge if you’d like to give it one.

Coarse stones are for repairs or thinning for the most part.

My view would be get a nice 1-2k stone and a strop; the optional extra would be a 6-8k stone. Eventually you’ll add more and more steps because let’s face it we’re all here because we have a problem.

Sorry I didn’t address the additional equipment question. I like using a stone holder with rubber feet. I’m fairly tall so I like the added height, a sink bridge would be convenient though but take up more space. If you’re really cutting costs a damp towel will hold the stone in place.


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## KingShapton (May 6, 2020)

You will need a stone holder/a sinkbridge or a damp towel. I, for myselfy prefer a stoneholder. You can build a simple stoneholder for yourself, it is simple.

A medium stone (1000 grit) and something to flatten the stone. A diamond plate like atoma or loose sic powder on a glass plate or granite tile.

The next thing (sooner or later) is a fine stone.


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## Helmore (May 6, 2020)

A coarse/medium/fine setup is what would cover any and all needs you may have.

A medium stone is the centerpiece and could on it's own cover all your needs. The coarse stone by itself will allow you to get really really sharp edges.
The coarse stone for those times you'll need to remove more metal more quickly, so for really dull knives or removing chips. This can still be done on a medium stone, it'll just take longer. Consistency is king though and holding a consistent angle for long periods of time takes practice, therefore a coarse stone can be incredibly helpful. On the flipside, since a coarse stone will remove metal quite a bit faster than a medium stone, any mistakes made here will have a bigger impact (you've removed more metal).
The fine stone is a nice to have extra. This allows for an even better edge, but too fine is also something to watch out for, as then your knife will start to glide over tomato skin for example.

For holder, some stones come with a base attached that seem to work fine for plenty of people, like with the Naniwa Choseras. As others have said, a towel and a brick or block of wood to raise the stone will work just fine as well.

For flattening, a diamond flattening plate like an Atoma is a luxury. There are many cheaper alternatives. Also, as IronBalloon said, really hard stones hardly dish at all. If you want to be really cheap, there are plenty of people who've flattened their stones on the pavement.

If budget is of no concern, going for this:








Naniwa Chosera 400, 1K, 3K Japanese Waterstone Set


NANIWA CHOSERA ONLY SALES TO AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND ONLY The Chosera is now a Japanese Domestic Market product only. It is is essentially the same as the PRO line (colour is identical between the Chosera and PRO, speed and feedback is also idencitcal) but thicker and comes with a Nagura...




www.knivesandstones.com.au




in combination with this:








Atoma Diamond Plate 140 Grit


Measurement: 210mm x 75mm Manufactured by Tsuboman, the Atoma diamond plate is arguably the best diamond plate offerings with a reasonable budget. Unique to Atoma, the diamond abrasive is electro-bonded to a thin layer of steel sheet, which is than taped to a 10mm aluminium base. In this way...




www.knivesandstones.com.au




will have you set for a lifetime. That's the complete and high quality but expensive option.

On the other side of the budget spectrum would be this:








King Deluxe Stone 1000 Sharpening Water Stone


King KDS 1000/6000, King watersone, king stone, japanese kitchen knife




www.knivesandstones.com.au




and then using some brick/wood block plus a towel as stone holder and the pavement to flatten the stone occasionally.

P.S. KingShapton repeated quite a bit of what I said, but I started writing this before he posted his reply.


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## inferno (May 6, 2020)

IronBalloon said:


> Do you guys all recommend a flattening plate or stone as an immediate purchase?
> 
> I found the shapton glass series to be pretty hard so it’s not wearing away at any real pace.
> 
> Might be enough displacement across the surface to mess with a single bevel but I’ve only got doubles and they’re still working well. I’ve got a lapping stone that I clean up the stones with every so often.



yes and no. if you are getting very coarse stones like 1-300 grit. then its nice to have a flattening device. otherwise you can simply rub 2 stones together and they will both become pretty flat sooner or later.

i got a 100 grit silicon carbide stone (no oil in it from the factory unlike nortons), and i quickly found it it sucked as a coarse stone. but its very good and cheap way to flatten good coarse stones  so this is my main flattening device now. 10-20€.

you can also simply use the parts of the stone that is higher to wear those down when sharpening.


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## inferno (May 6, 2020)

gollux said:


> Since I'm pretty new to this, I'm curious to know: what do you prefer about the shaptons / naniwas to the hyper, apart from the convenience of not having to wait a week for the stone to dry? Is it the feel of the knife on the stone? The finish it gives? Or something else?
> 
> With my Edge Pro, I have a few shaptons and one that's not. I can definitely feel the difference in feel during sharpening, and I suppose the shaptons also work more quickly. But I'm trying to figure out whether there are other factors that matter!



1 the shaptons are very fast for their stated grit so sharpening is fast and efficient. 
2 no clogging making the stones cut slower.
3 very slow dishing/wearing
4 handles all steels pretty much except maybe the highest vanadium % steels. then you need diamonds.
5 does all steels the same. carbons/ss/powder/hss. they dont care.
6 to me they feel good, they feel like all business, no play. 
7 they are hard and simply just perform, all grits. i feel whats going on and there is nothing sugar coating it.
8 they all pretty much feel the same and perform the same they just get finer or coarser as opposed to other brands where maybe the 1k is good and the 3k is crap etc etc. all glass feel the same, and work the same more or less, they are just finer/slower or faster/coarser imo
8 dry fast
9 actually quite cheap for what you get.
10 dont crack.
11 dont need soaking before sharpening.
12 you can put down some weight on them to make stuff happen faster, they dont care.
13 hard/impossible to gouge
etc etc etc.

sure i dont have all shaptons but i have glass from 220 to 6k (also had the 8k on loan for a week) and pro from 220 to 12k (but i dont have the 5k one),
i also have the naniwa super stone 12k but i feel the pro 12k is much better stone overall. you can go from a 1k directly to the 12k in a minute or 2. and the SS would be much slower. but they are both very good 12k stones imo.


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## inferno (May 6, 2020)

gollux said:


> Ok, having thought through all these responses, I realized that there are two basic questions I didn't ask explicitly:
> 
> 1) What sort of progression should I be looking to get? E.g. a three stone progression (coarse, medium, fine) or something more / less?
> 
> ...



what you *want *in the end is a dedicated flattening stone. and then maybe a really coarse one like 220, then one or 2 medium ones 500-1k, then a med fine one 2-3k (for crap stainless, preferably both), then some high grit one 4-6-8k or so. 6-8k is only wanted for carbon steel imo. and 3-4k is good for stainless imo. 

you also want 1 or 2 stone holders. i like to work with 2. the cheap ones have rubber that slides around more and the expensive ones have rubber that make the holder stay put better but its mostly academical. i have the premium "japanese" made holder from dictum or fine tools as my best one, and then some other one just slightly worse in quality i have at work. i gave the rest of them away. 

basically you cant give away knives to people unless you also give them stones to keep those knives sharp. and then they also need a holder for the stones. so all my other holders went there kinda. but i kept the 2 really good ones.

--------

my dad got a white 2 hinoura and 1/3k naniwa hibiki stones (soakers, but good)
my brother got a blue 2 blue moon and chosera 1k and shapton 6k gray
my freiend got a cryoed mac aus-8 and missarka 800 and 3k equivalent (from dictum, soakers)
my cousing got a different cryoed mac in aus-8 and shapton glass 500 and 3k. 

i felt these were good combos for their knives and steels at hand.


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## kayman67 (May 6, 2020)

gollux said:


> This is really useful, thanks. Maybe this is a dumb question, but: what does "reacting fast enough" mean here? Is it about the speed with which the stone cuts or something else?








Advice on whetstones purchase


Hey folks, I recently bought a Tojiro Shirogami Nakiri to get a feel for and learn to take care of a Japanese carbon knife. Now I know this knife isn't exactly high end, but I thought it was a nice way to see if it was something for me. All I currently have are some stainless steel knives I got...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Take a look at this topic. It pretty much has all the info you require for getting started, except for specific stones that might be easier to get where you are. So be somewhat flexible with the stones, stick as much as possible with the idea. Keep in mind that you don't actually start at the level these guys are and, even more, ask yourself just how far you want to push this in terms of skill development. Because it's hard to argue that most stones would not work to some extent otherwise. But, even here, I see a lot of hit and miss with knives (sharpening difficulties, edges not performing and so on and so forth), that have roots somewhere else, not with the knives themselves.


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## kdkrone (May 7, 2020)

There is some very good advice that people have provided for you. I would just chime in that to set up a simple work area I purchased a pet food feeding mat (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M7SIY7O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1). You could likely pick one up a pet store. Put your stone/holder on the mat, splash some water on the stone, wash it off when you are finished. Easy-peasey...


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## Helmore (May 7, 2020)

Ah, I was looking at silicon baking mats/trays, but this looks like you can get for less money.


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## gollux (May 9, 2020)

kdkrone said:


> There is some very good advice that people have provided for you. I would just chime in that to set up a simple work area I purchased a pet food feeding mat (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M7SIY7O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1). You could likely pick one up a pet store. Put your stone/holder on the mat, splash some water on the stone, wash it off when you are finished. Easy-peasey...



Yeah, this is a great idea - I'm definitely going to do this.


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## gollux (May 9, 2020)

IronBalloon said:


> My view would be get a nice 1-2k stone and a strop; the optional extra would be a 6-8k stone. Eventually you’ll add more and more steps because let’s face it we’re all here because we have a problem.



Thanks so much for the comments. Stropping wasn't even on my radar. I have some experience with sharpening (using a jig), but stropping is a mystery to me. Two dumb questions:

1) Is it possible to go from a 1-2k stone to a strop, or is the 6-8k stone a necessary step?

2) When you suggest I get a strop, is something like this what you have in mind: Muhle Leather & Canvas Hanging Strop


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## Michi (May 9, 2020)

kdkrone said:


> I would just chime in that to set up a simple work area I purchased a pet food feeding mat.


I bought one of these shortly after starting to sharpen with stones. It mostly works fine, and certainly reduced the mess I used to make on the bench before that. I bought a sink bridge a month or two later, and I'm sold on that.

I still have the mat. If anyone wants a freebie, let me know, and I'll mail it to you. If you are overseas, be prepared for it to take ages


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## gollux (May 9, 2020)

Helmore said:


> A coarse/medium/fine setup is what would cover any and all needs you may have.
> 
> A medium stone is the centerpiece and could on it's own cover all your needs. The coarse stone by itself will allow you to get really really sharp edges.
> The coarse stone for those times you'll need to remove more metal more quickly, so for really dull knives or removing chips. This can still be done on a medium stone, it'll just take longer. Consistency is king though and holding a consistent angle for long periods of time takes practice, therefore a coarse stone can be incredibly helpful. On the flipside, since a coarse stone will remove metal quite a bit faster than a medium stone, any mistakes made here will have a bigger impact (you've removed more metal).
> ...



Thanks so much for breaking it down like this - I don't have much to say in response, just that it's hugely helpful.


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## gollux (May 9, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Advice on whetstones purchase
> 
> 
> Hey folks, I recently bought a Tojiro Shirogami Nakiri to get a feel for and learn to take care of a Japanese carbon knife. Now I know this knife isn't exactly high end, but I thought it was a nice way to see if it was something for me. All I currently have are some stainless steel knives I got...
> ...



I've had a read through of the other thread, and it's very useful. As are the comments here: incredibly generous and helpful, from everyone. I will certainly bear in mind your suggestion here not to focus too much on the stones. It seems like any of the main brands will work well - then the question will be how to develop the skills to get the results I'm looking for. Thanks for the reminder.


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## gollux (May 9, 2020)

inferno said:


> 1 the shaptons are very fast for their stated grit so sharpening is fast and efficient.
> 2 no clogging making the stones cut slower.
> 3 very slow dishing/wearing
> 4 handles all steels pretty much except maybe the highest vanadium % steels. then you need diamonds.
> ...



Thanks for this thorough - and convincing! - response. I'm thinking that I'll get two stones to start, one medium and one fine. If you were to pick two from the Shaptons you've tried, what would they be?

From the reading I've done, I'm thinking maybe the Shapton Glass 1000k and 6000k? But that's really just a wild guess. Let me know if you have any thoughts!


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## gollux (May 9, 2020)

inferno said:


> 1 the shaptons are very fast for their stated grit so sharpening is fast and efficient.
> 2 no clogging making the stones cut slower.
> 3 very slow dishing/wearing
> 4 handles all steels pretty much except maybe the highest vanadium % steels. then you need diamonds.
> ...



Sorry, I've just noticed in the other thread that you recommend the Shapton Glass 1k and 4k. I'll take a look at those.


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## kayman67 (May 9, 2020)

gollux said:


> Thanks so much for the comments. Stropping wasn't even on my radar. I have some experience with sharpening (using a jig), but stropping is a mystery to me. Two dumb questions:
> 
> 1) Is it possible to go from a 1-2k stone to a strop, or is the 6-8k stone a necessary step?
> 
> 2) When you suggest I get a strop, is something like this what you have in mind: Muhle Leather & Canvas Hanging Strop



Stropping is a technique of its own. You can strop after any stone, provided you have a strop capable of dealing with what's going on. For example, if you have a fine leather strop, it might just get damaged unless the edge is really clean (so you need to be very good with that stone before using the strop) or it won't do much and you might feel like some force is required and that leads to negative results on the long run as this technique will affect everything later on. 
Sometimes it doesn't even have to be that fine. A strop like this https://www.amazon.com/Knives-Strop-Block-Leather-Sharpening/dp/B010C7WBDE, while very nice, can't deal with a lot of things if the edge is not already at a certain level. 
While something like this https://www.amazon.com/Taytools-Leather-Stropping-Lacquered-107220/dp/B076GWRP4Q has a side capable of dealing with pretty much anything and, with the right diamond or cbn abrasives, even with very demanding burr removal, if that is required. Also has a finer side for the final edge and maintenance. 

You don't want a free hanging strop for razors, like the one you picked.


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## inferno (May 9, 2020)

gollux said:


> Thanks for this thorough - and convincing! - response. I'm thinking that I'll get two stones to start, one medium and one fine. If you were to pick two from the Shaptons you've tried, what would they be?
> 
> From the reading I've done, I'm thinking maybe the Shapton Glass 1000k and 6000k? But that's really just a wild guess. Let me know if you have any thoughts!



i think the 500 and 3k is a good combo since you can do coarse work fast and then put a very good finishing edge on that. 
1 and 4k would work too. 1 and 3k too. and probably 1 and 6k. and probably 500 and 6k. 

after 6k there might not be any real benefit. but its a lot slower to use a 6k than a 3k stone. 

i'd probably go for 500, 2k and 6k if i wanted a 6k as my finisher.


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## kayman67 (May 9, 2020)

With Glass stones, "a lot slower" isn't that much slower. That HR 6000 can be quite aggressive if the surface is right. 

At the moment I'm using almost the same last set, with 220 added - 220/500/2000/6000.


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## inferno (May 9, 2020)

yeah you are right, i went from a 2-400 grit diamond stone (some cheap crap stone) and then straight to the 3k. and it only took maybe 30secs-1min to make the whole edge bevel 3k shiny. 

it takes a lot less time than one might think to get rid of those coarse scratches. 

but i find xc and xxc dmts and 140 atomas to plow ultra deep scratches and those dont come off after 1 minute on a 3k stone. maybe 30 minutes.

i find i need to follow up any quality diamond stone with the glass 500 at least. to make things move along rapidly. but i usually follow up with a 220 shapton then the 500. 

but i found that "you use what you have" and then its simply as that. it sometimes just take a longer or shorter time to get stuff done. 

a shapton 12k is surprisingly fast to be honest after a 1k. it only takes 1-2 minute or so. but it would probably take a whole day after an atoma 140.


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## IronBalloon (May 9, 2020)

gollux said:


> Thanks so much for the comments. Stropping wasn't even on my radar. I have some experience with sharpening (using a jig), but stropping is a mystery to me. Two dumb questions:
> 
> 1) Is it possible to go from a 1-2k stone to a strop, or is the 6-8k stone a necessary step?
> 
> 2) When you suggest I get a strop, is something like this what you have in mind: Muhle Leather & Canvas Hanging Strop


Happy to help.

You can go 1-2 to a strop; the key is that you finish nicely on whatever stone you’re using before. If I go 1 to strop I will clean off the stone and knife and then do a few light passes with little water. Just to clean up the final edge. Then thoroughly clean the knife before stropping, you don’t want loose particles on your knife if you can avoid it.

As has been said be gentle with the pressure on the strop. You can always do more passes but you can’t un-round an edge.

I’d go for a mounted strop as opposed to a hanging one... they’re really for straight razors.


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## Helmore (May 9, 2020)

Also, stropping can be done on folded newspaper or on your jeans, those are the cheaper options. For leather, any leather will do as long as it's actual leather and not imitation leather. You can probably get some leather for cheap at a local store that works with leather and asking for their scraps. Then just glue it to a block of wood and you're done. 

I personally just strop on a folded piece of newspaper. I'm going to look for a piece of balsa wood in the coming weeks to see how that works as a strop, as I saw a store selling that for cheap (couple of euros). I personally feel like my sharpening skills aren't really good enough yet to warrant spending much on a strop, though I'm not sure if that's the right reasoning. Stropping takes little skill after all, especially if you use thicker leather as that's even more tolerant of what angle you use. So maybe, as someone with little experience sharpening on whetstones, I would actually be better off investing more in stropping to aid my sharpening. What are other people's opinions on stropping actually?


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## ian (May 9, 2020)

I haven't read the OP or any of the other posts, since it's not worth my time. Anyway, I'd usually suggest flour instead of stones, because of the higher sugar content and some other factors.


-----


I have the strop that @kayman67 talked about. Definitely a mounted strop is the way to go. A hanging one will give you a rounded, burnished edge that is razor sharp (well, with appropriate use), but which has no teeth to it, and so will not cut through produce with skins, and which is less stable, so will degrade quickly upon board contact. I usually use a strop lightly(!) with controlled angle after a 3k stone, though, just to clean up any remnants of a burr that might remain.

Don't stress too much about stropping right now, though. Probably for the long run, it's better for you to learn to sharpen (and especially deburr) on whatever stones you buy. I think of a strop as a bit of a (useful) crutch. I'm not saying I don't use one, but just that you'll likely get a better result if you can achieve the same keenness on stones. But by all means, buy one if you want. You can definitely get reasonable, quick results with it, with less practice. Just don't think it's necessary.


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## gollux (May 10, 2020)

Ok, I think I've got my head around this. Because my nicest knife is an SG2/R2 steel, Shapton Glass seems like the way to go. (In another thread, Steampunk says that this steel is where the SG stones shine, and Inferno's comments on the SG stones make them sound like what I'm looking for.) Because I have some VG10 knives that need some chips taken out, I'm thinking I'll get the SG 500, a flattening plate, and one other stone for the moment. (I'll plan to add a 6k/8k stone and strop later on, if and when my skills develop.)

Given that I'll get the SG 500, I'm trying to figure out whether my second stone the should be the SG 2000, SG 3000, or Shapton Pro 2000. My main question is this: Is the jump from the SG 500 to the SG 3000 too big?

There may not be much in it, but I guess the SG 3000 will leave a marginally better edge for home use, while the SG 2000 will get results more quickly. Any thoughts?


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## KingShapton (May 10, 2020)

gollux said:


> My main question is this: Is the jump from the SG 500 to the SG 3000 too big?


No, it is not. SG 500 and SG 3000 work perfect together.




gollux said:


> There may not be much in it, but I guess the SG 3000 will leave a marginally better edge for home use


Correct




gollux said:


> while the SG 2000 will get results more quickly.


Correct, but the difference to the SG 3000 in speed is not that big


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## KingShapton (May 10, 2020)

gollux said:


> Any thoughts?


Go for the SG 500 and SG 3000. You will not regret it. For home use, it could be everything you need.


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## gollux (May 10, 2020)

KingShapton said:


> Go for the SG 500 and SG 3000. You will not regret it. For home use, it could be everything you need.



Ok, great! Thanks for all the advice.


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## M1k3 (May 11, 2020)

inferno said:


> i think the 500 and 3k is a good combo since you can do coarse work fast and then put a very good finishing edge on that.
> 1 and 4k would work too. 1 and 3k too. and probably 1 and 6k. and probably 500 and 6k.
> 
> after 6k there might not be any real benefit. but its a lot slower to use a 6k than a 3k stone.
> ...


500->4k works also


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## gollux (May 11, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> 500->4k works also



Oh wow, really? I thought the 500 and 3k were the answer, but there doesn't seem to be a way to get the 3k in Australia at the moment. If I move straight from the 500 to the 4k, will I need to spend a lot of time on the 4k? (If so, perhaps I'll get the 500 and 2k to start.)


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## M1k3 (May 11, 2020)

gollux said:


> Oh wow, really? I thought the 500 and 3k were the answer, but there doesn't seem to be a way to get the 3k in Australia at the moment. If I move straight from the 500 to the 4k, will I need to spend a lot of time on the 4k? (If so, perhaps I'll get the 500 and 2k to start.)


For sharpening, not really. Aesthetically, yes. The difference between the 3k and 4k isn't huge. I'd check out steampunk's reviews of them.


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## Doffen (May 11, 2020)

Just remember it is two series of SG, HR an HC. I have the 220, 500 2000 and 16000 in HR serie, and 4000 and 8000 in HC serie. HC serie is not fast, but give a nice finish. Over here I think they refer to the HR serie.


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## gollux (May 11, 2020)

Doffen said:


> Just remember it is two series of SG, HR an HC. I have the 220, 500 2000 and 16000 in HR serie, and 4000 and 8000 in HC serie. 4k in HC serie. HC serie is not fast, but give a nice finish. Over here I think they refer to the HR serie.



Got it, thanks!


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## inferno (May 11, 2020)

gollux said:


> Oh wow, really? I thought the 500 and 3k were the answer, but there doesn't seem to be a way to get the 3k in Australia at the moment. If I move straight from the 500 to the 4k, will I need to spend a lot of time on the 4k? (If so, perhaps I'll get the 500 and 2k to start.)



the 4k will do nice too.

the difference between teh 3k and the 4k is that the 4k is slower, and it clogs easier. but it has the ability to produce a truly scary sharp edge.

the 3k is faster, and very seldom clog up. it makes stuff very very sharp but imo not as sharp as the 4k can. 

basically i like to finish on the 3k for most knives except high hardness carbons or powder stainless. those get 4k or 6 or 8 or 12k. but usually just the 4k.


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## M1k3 (May 11, 2020)

The clogging I've noticed on the 4k can mostly, not fully, be remedied with some extra water and rubbing with my hand.


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## gollux (May 11, 2020)

inferno said:


> the 4k will do nice too.
> 
> the difference between teh 3k and the 4k is that the 4k is slower, and it clogs easier. but it has the ability to produce a truly scary sharp edge.
> 
> ...



Great, thanks - this is very helpful. I've learned quite a lot from this thread!


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## kayman67 (May 12, 2020)

2, 3, 4, 6k all load in different scenarios and all require at least some surface maintenance, but that's part of the normal routine for Glass stones to perform best. 

I think in terms of easy-going and results, the Naniwa Pro 600/800 and 3000 would outperform the Shaptons at this level for you.


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## Helmore (May 12, 2020)

The thing is, you can get 3 Shapton Glass stones for the price of 2 Naniwa Pro stones. Or at least, that's the case here in Europe. That makes getting a SG320 + SG1000 + SG4000 set (€132) seem like a much better value proposition compared to getting a Naniwa Pro 800 + Pro 3000 set (€153). The former would seem much more versatile. Is the difference between Naniwa and Shapton big enough to warrant the higher price of the Naniwa's?


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## M1k3 (May 12, 2020)

Naniwa Chosera/Pro leave a nicer, shinier finish. And have more stone to work with while loading less.


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## Carlo (May 12, 2020)

I started reading this thread thinking that my rec would be Shapton glass 500 and Shapton Pro 2000 but it looks like you pretty much got there already. 

Cheap and could be the only stones you ever need ...or you can end up like the rest of us with a need to try everything. 

And then you start buying natural stones.


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## KingShapton (May 12, 2020)

Helmore said:


> Is the difference between Naniwa and Shapton big enough to warrant the higher price of the Naniwa's?


At some point it's more a matter of personal preference.

As an example, I know Naniwa Chosera stones as well as Shaptons, Glass and Pro.

I would choose the Shapton stones at any time. Even if the Naniwa Chosera and the Shaptons had exactly the same price, my choice would be the Shaptons.


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## kayman67 (May 12, 2020)

Something better than something else is a bit complicated to determine in absolute anything. I don't think there is such thing. I could make most stones work to some extent, but there are obviously all kinds of things to consider and limitations for all of them. 
I do find the Naniwa Pro 400/600 to be a better choice for making completely new bevels (from scratch) on pretty much anything. I've done it countless times. Just work better. I'm also one of the guys that would rather use the Naniwa Pro 800 while working with single bevels, than anything else. It's a very popular stone for all jobs though. And 3000 is a solid performer no matter what. 
These can also be used with many types of blades, while the nature of the Glass stones will limit or even make it impossible sometimes. 

But that wasn't the real idea here. Naniwa will give a feeling to a much greater degree true to what's actually happening on the stones (like driving and getting road feedback), with less things to consider. 
The downsides are related to availability, price and those immortal cracks (that can be managed).


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## gollux (May 12, 2020)

Thanks for these additional comments. With a different knife, I think I would have chosen either the Choeras or a softer stone like the Cerax 1000 - since some people says they are easier to learn on. However, from Steampunk's reviews, I gather that the Shapton Glass series is especially good with SG2 / R2 knives, which is what I have, so that's where I wound up.

I would have gotten the SG 500 and 3000, but I found that the 3000 isn't available where I live except as part of a set. So I've ordered the 1000 and 4000 to start, and I'll add a coarser stone as needed once I've got the hang of things.

Thanks again for all the advice!


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## kayman67 (May 13, 2020)

Since you will have no reference, you might just as well enjoy them the best you can. 

After you do that and want more or to see what their best is, consider these:



Take a look at what Matus did here. This applies to Glass stones as well, in different degrees, based on different usage combos (they react in a different manner based on what and how you sharpen). So, if anything happens or changes and they don't perform as expected or as they used to, try this first. 
Even razor guys use diamond plates to refresh the surface. There's a bigger subject here, but might not be the right place. 



Also take a look at this. And it goes well beyond numbers, but again, it's a big subject. You won't have a great development in terms of precision pressure with these stones in general, but still being aware will have some positive effects. Just keep in mind that the stone changes as well.


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## gollux (May 18, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Since you will have no reference, you might just as well enjoy them the best you can.
> 
> After you do that and want more or to see what their best is, consider these:
> 
> ...




These videos are both really helpful, thanks very much. My stones arrived last week, and I gave the 1k stone a try yesterday for the first time. I raised a burr straightaway without difficulty on one side, but I had trouble getting one on the other. I'll get myself a flattening stone and see whether roughing up the surface helps.

Of course, my technique is totally slipshod - practice is the main thing I need! But I'm glad for the guidance about how to get the most out of these stones.


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## M1k3 (May 18, 2020)

gollux said:


> These videos are both really helpful, thanks very much. My stones arrived last week, and I gave the 1k stone a try yesterday for the first time. I raised a burr straightaway without difficulty on one side, but I had trouble getting one on the other. I'll get myself a flattening stone and see whether roughing up the surface helps.
> 
> Of course, my technique is totally slipshod - practice is the main thing I need! But I'm glad for the guidance about how to get the most out of these stones.


Next time you try sharpening, start on the side you had trouble raising a burr. Also use sharpie on the edge to see where you're actually removing metal.


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## gollux (May 19, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Next time you try sharpening, start on the side you had trouble raising a burr. Also use sharpie on the edge to see where you're actually removing metal.



Thanks. The sharpie trick is definitely useful!


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