# Picking first stone. Naniwa 800, King 1000, Gesshin 1000?



## jstark

I'm picking my first stone to start learning to sharpen my kitchen knives. Which are all currently German stainless (Henkel Forged line). But probably as soon as I buy a stone I'm buying a new knife, probably a Tanaka Blue 2 or something similar, maybe a Tojiro DP also for more practice. 

From my current research, I think I'm going to buy a quality medium stone like a 1000 to learn on, and then buy something like a 3000 or 4000 later on, and 400 probably after that. I'm ok with the stone costing in the $70-$100 range. I have no preference of Splash n go, or soak. I don't mind either. I'm not interested in diamond, oil, or natural stones. 

The Brands I have come down to in my research are the Naniwa Pro stones, King and JKI Gesshin. I don't think I'm interested in the Shapton Glass stones yet. 

I've read that the Naniwa 800 is actually finer than it's rated for, more similar to a 1000. That guy on youtube Burrfection says his favorite combo is the Naniwa 800 and the 4000, so I was thinking I would do the same. 

The King 1000, or the 1000/6000 combo (The better one that's like $70, not the $30 combo stone). 

The Gesshin people seem to like a lot, how do they compare to the Naniwa? I'm a little hesitant since they're newer to the market and made for JKI, I'm unsure if that really means they're really high quality or not. 

Any advice is appreciated, if you know if a good Gesshin or Naniwa combo stone or have other suggestions.


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## foody518

If your current knives have been used for a long while without good sharpening, you may very well need to drop to a coarse stone to really get all the fatigued metal abraded away at the edge (not to mention do some thinning)

The Gesshin stones are all quality, as with all JKI stock


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## JBroida

just FYI, if you're looking at gesshin stones from me, i would probably look at the 2k instead of the 1k, 1.2k, or 1.5k... its as fast as any 1k


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## jstark

Do you think that would be sufficient for a single stone setup? I appreciate your advice, I'm heavily considering getting your stones.


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## JBroida

it could, but having a finishing stone can really be helpful

Also, my goal wasnt necssairly to say which stone you should choose, but rather that if you are considering stones from me, i would look at the 2k based on what you seem to be looking for.


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## daveb

Well I'll say it. The G2K might be the best syn stone ever made. There. It's a soaker, cuts fast, feels good, good feedback, will dish - as will most any soaker. 

My experience is that it's most convenient to have a mid stone and a finer stone that are both soakers *or* are both S&G. G2K and G6K (semi soaker) are an ideal solution but will be higher than your budget. Within your budget I like the Bestor 1.2K and Suehiro 5K soakers (Amazon). Kings will dish quickly though I've heard the newer MDX(?) is not as bad as the orig. 

For a S&G combo the Gesshin 1/6K at 130 is a great value and may be the optimum solution for your requirements. I've been keeping one at work for a couple months now and like the quick touch-up it provides after a very brief soak. It would be a good stone for a home cook who didn't want to mess with permasoaking stones.

With any stone(s) you will soon need a way to flatten it. With a King you may need that during first session. Ha! I've seen a $30 plate somewhere that would probably work. Again the Gesshin plate is a quality solution.

Good luck.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Get the $30 king combo anyway before even thinking too much  It's decent, you have a finisher, a second sharpening stone to compare. Disadvantages: fast disher, soaker, more optimized for carbon.

Naniwa Pro has a learning curve - while it won't need as much flattening as the king, it can load up, and if you allow it to really dish you have a flattening nightmare to dream.

If you don't let heavy dishing happen, I'd say get another $30 coarse instead of a dedicated flattener.


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## StonedEdge

Gesshin 1K or 2K would be a great 1st stone for double bevel knives IMO fairly versatile


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## Lars

Bester 1200, because it is awesome and cheap.. Great stone to learn on.. After you have bought more fancy stones you will still use it, because it is awesome.. And cheap..

Lars


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## Gunslingerheel

jstark got pretty close to taking my first post. What do you guys think of the Naniwa Super Stones? I am new to the sharpening game. don't have any particularly expensive knives, just looking to learn. would prefer a splash and go to a soaker (convenience more than anything) and of course cost is part of the equation but not the most part of it. So for just starting out in blissful ignorance what do you guys think? Appreciate the help in advance.


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## jstark

Gunslingerheel said:


> jstark got pretty close to taking my first post. What do you guys think of the Naniwa Super Stones? I am new to the sharpening game. don't have any particularly expensive knives, just looking to learn. would prefer a splash and go to a soaker (convenience more than anything) and of course cost is part of the equation but not the most part of it. So for just starting out in blissful ignorance what do you guys think? Appreciate the help in advance.



I just ordered the $30 King 1000/6000 just to get something to start out on. And I like the idea of starting with a stone that isn't top quality so I know what it feels like. I was a little tired of waiting and comparing. In the next couple of weeks I might order nicer stones (And a Tojiro DP). I'm fairly certain I'm going with the Gesshin line.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

Compared to what some OEM stones by knife brands are like, the king IS top quality


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@Gunslingerheel only got a finisher (5000) SS... it is weird but has its uses


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## daveb

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Compared to what some OEM stones by knife brands are like, the king IS top quality



You've got to get out of the basement more often...:whistling:


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

@daveb: Does this mean you don't like Kings, or that you like the stones Wusthof, Global/Minosharp, KAI, Chroma etc put out at relatively high prices?


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## panda

If I were to start over, I would have chosen shapton glass 1k as my first stone. It's a good balanced characteristics stone, as in user friendly.


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## daveb

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @daveb: Does this mean you don't like Kings, or that you like the stones Wusthof, Global/Minosharp, KAI, Chroma etc put out at relatively high prices?



King meets a need, fills a niche or what have you. Not bad for a first knife / first stone but I don't like the sight of orange mud going down the drain with relatively little results. I think the rebranded POS sold with Wusthof's, Shun's, etc name on it are all made by the same place. US Foods (food service supplier) even sells one for about 20 bucks. They're all chitty gray on one side, chitty orange on other. I call it the 86 and go.

You sir should not be seen in the company of such.


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## daveb

panda said:


> If I were to start over, I would have chosen shapton glass 1k as my first stone. It's a good balanced characteristics stone, as in user friendly.



I didn't know you liked friendly. Ha!


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## labor of love

The cool thing about stones is that you can often spend an extra $20-30 and get something "premium" instead of something that's just good. Definitely not the case with knives though lol.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

I have no shapton glass. Is it more load-up resistant than eg a chosera? How does it deal with loading given you can't just grind off a layer easily, and neither does it on its own if I am not mistaken about the working principle?


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## K813zra

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I have no shapton glass. Is it more load-up resistant than eg a chosera? How does it deal with loading given you can't just grind off a layer easily, and neither does it on its own if I am not mistaken about the working principle?



I have never really had an issue with loading on glass stones. Most awful feeling stones I have ever used, though, they work well. Quite convenient for when I am feeling lazy but if you are not diligent and let them go out of flat you are in for a "fun" session with the diamond plate. (I am very bad about not flattening my stones...)


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## rick alen

If going the economy route, ie one good stone <$100, then Iminishi 1/6K combo, or if the refined edge means nothing to you right now then the Geshin 2K.

If you wanted a step above this, you couldn't beat the Geshin 3 stone set (400, 2K, 6K, and pick up the diamond flattening plate while at it.


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## zitangy

I testedquite a few of the 1k stones

a) shapton.. aggresive does not clog, fast cutter..I suspect that it is a slightly lower grit. IT does not leave a decent edge at all

b) Naniwa superstones.. clogs adn a little slow.

c) KIng... slow cutting but nice for kasumi finish

d) KInd Hydra.. I like it very much.. fast cutting and the only stone in the 1000 grit that i hv played with that leaves a decent edge.. Quite passable for a 1 stone setup. For its price... it s a bigger stone

Having said that... a 400 grit stone i feel is essential in my line up.... not particular as to brand but must be fast cutter and not glog... IF the 1k takes a liitle bit too long.. i switched to 400K and once there is a decent improvement.., bite on the finger print grooves...... jump to 1k stone for a finer edge...


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## Nemo

Interesting that the superstones are cloggy and slow. My Choseras are my only synthetics but are neither in my experience.


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## Lars

Choseras are really nice, Super Stones are completely different and imo a lot less desirable.. They do make shiny metal fast though..

Lars


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## Nemo

Lars said:


> Choseras are really nice, Super Stones are completely different and imo a lot less desirable.. They do make shiny metal fast though..
> 
> Lars



Good to know


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## rick alen

zitangy said:


> I testedquite a few of the 1k stones
> 
> a) shapton.. aggresive does not clog, fast cutter..I suspect that it is a slightly lower grit. IT does not leave a decent edge at all
> 
> b) Naniwa superstones.. clogs adn a little slow.
> 
> c) KIng... slow cutting but nice for kasumi finish
> 
> d) KInd Hydra.. I like it very much.. fast cutting and the only stone in the 1000 grit that i hv played with that leaves a decent edge.. Quite passable for a 1 stone setup. For its price... it s a bigger stone
> 
> Having said that... a 400 grit stone i feel is essential in my line up.... not particular as to brand but must be fast cutter and not glog... IF the 1k takes a liitle bit too long.. i switched to 400K and once there is a decent improvement.., bite on the finger print grooves...... jump to 1k stone for a finer edge...



On the subject of 1K stones, I would never be happy with the finish left by any. I know the OP mentioned this in the beginning and the comment answers to that, but just saying I would not seriously consider this for a one-stone option. And yes eventually you will want/need a 400.


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## Benuser

I sharpen the Krupp 4116 on Naniwa Pro 400. Finer only for deburring, no polishing -- it won't hold.


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## rick alen

Yeh but that's what touchups are for. ;-) Really though, just the price you pay for a decent edge in cheap stainless. As they say, "The cheap is expensive."

Certainly if you go through crates a day of stuff I don't doubt the 400 is what you need to get through. But my Vic gets a high polish and it will chop and dice quite a bit of carrot and onion, swede, etc, by home-kitchen volumes, before needing attention. 

But my thinking here in going for higher grit is the OP mentions moving up to good carbon, or possibly finer stainless, and there the higher grits will of course be particularly desirable.


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## GeneH

Skip the Tojiro DP and get one of Jon's $160 mono steel stainless. The difference is night and day. 

I like the Chosera as low maintenance SG. The same qualities making them so nice as use and set aside also contributes to more work if you let them get dished. These are what we recommend to my kids who don't sharpen has a hobby or business. 

My preference would be Jon's three Stone set and add a 220 pink brick to the mix to set new bevels and rework up those awful and cheap stainless blades. I like the feedback of stones that are slightly softer and more muddy than Choceras.


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## jstark

Thanks guys. I ended up buying the 1k/6k king for $30 and I've been practicing with my current knives. I love it! Bringing your knives back to life is really great and I'm so glad I started down this path to maintain them correctly. I think I'm going to pick up a new knife in a a week or two, or maybe a more corse stone, like a 400. 

My girlfriend has several super cheap, what seam like dollar store knives. I've tried to sharpen them, and it doesn't seem to work well. Strange how cheap steel doesn't easily sharpen. It makes me want a high quality knife, so I can really see the difference when I sharpen and use it.

I also need to figure out a cheap way to flatten the stone, or buy something to do it with.


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## tsuriru

jstark said:


> I also need to figure out a cheap way to flatten the stone, or buy something to do it with.



Atoma makes a good flattener stone, or you can use abrasive sheets to flatten your stone on a flat kitchen counter.


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## Nemo

The Atoma plate is great but not cheap. I got a very good price from James at K&S.

If you are in USA, it's worth checking out the JKI diamond plates.

As a cheap option, some people advocate using drywall screen on a piece of flat glass. As Tsuriru suggested, wet and dry sandpaper on a flat surface would work too. You can buy flattening blocks but these will themselves need to be flattened eventually.


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## daveb

I like the JKI plate, has lasted me awhile and shows no sign of slowing down. Prior to that I used a DMT diamond plate. Maybe a little cheaper, not sure.

I've read about a $30 plate being avail Amazon but don't know anything more about it.

A King, huh. If you've used it, you need to flatten it.


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## K813zra

daveb said:


> I like the JKI plate, has lasted me awhile and shows no sign of slowing down. Prior to that I used a DMT diamond plate. Maybe a little cheaper, not sure.
> 
> I've read about a $30 plate being avail Amazon but don't know anything more about it.
> 
> A King, huh. If you've used it, you need to flatten it.



I've not tried the amazon plate but I am a budget minded guy and have used other budget plates with no issues. iwood isn't bad at all nor is the one from he who should not be named. I wonder, if it is the same manufacture as the amazon plate, looks similar enough. Then again, it is a diamond plate and most look at least somewhat similar.


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## giova

I also recently bought my first stone and I had the same dilemma, but since my knives didn't really have a clean edge I preferred going under the 1000 grit, so I took the Suehiro Cerax 700 from ToolsFromJapan. It was really cheap option (40 included shipping) and I just sharpened yesterday some cheap stainless knives and one Tojiro Santoku (F-701A). It was my first experience in sharpening and what I found out was that to develop a burr on my western knives it was a bit hard because they were really dull and the blade has a completely differente profile, at the secondary edge the western knives are twice as thick as my Japanese Tojiro, so I had to push somewhat harder on the stone but after taking my time I must say that the result was really really good, with some "though" sharpening and then very light polishing my edge was razor sharp (could shave my hair on my legs) but the geometry of the edge is not exactly what you would get from a finer stone, it cuts paper with a rough sound to it. The stone didn't build up at all and it's pretty tough stone, didn't felt like I'm cutting off too much material at all. With my Japanese knife this stone felt so much smoother and I was able to produce a burr in much less time and on my Japanese knife it produces a really sharper edge. My Tojiro was sharper than when I took it off from the box. The only thing I couldn't explain to myself was that at the first soak the stone was still letting some bubbles after 2 hours and a half of soaking and overall it kind of drinks a bit of water in the borders, but this may be because of the first soaking .. I don't really know since I never read anything about the soaking of this stone in particular.
I bought this Cerax 700 either because as I said I needed a "courser" stone either because I'm planning to buy the Suehiro Rika 5k as my finishing stone and I thought that the Cerax are a really good combo together with the Cerax and overall also because they're cheap (also Naniwa can be cheap for the 800 grit but after that when you wanna take a finer grit they get way more expensive)


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## Carey59

daveb said:


> I like the JKI plate, has lasted me awhile and shows no sign of slowing down. Prior to that I used a DMT diamond plate. Maybe a little cheaper, not sure.
> 
> I've read about a $30 plate being avail Amazon but don't know anything more about it.
> 
> A King, huh. If you've used it, you need to flatten it.




For stone flattening I bought one last year from CKTG (no affiliation) for $35 that's pretty good; cuts well and was close to flat. 400/1000 nominal grit.
One I got at Amazon recently at around the same price was not flat at all, so I'll be returning it.


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## jstark

Yeah I'm looking at that CKTG one too, I think I'm going to go that route


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## Gunslingerheel

jstark said:


> Thanks guys. I ended up buying the 1k/6k king for $30 and I've been practicing with my current knives. I love it! Bringing your knives back to life is really great and I'm so glad I started down this path to maintain them correctly. I think I'm going to pick up a new knife in a a week or two, or maybe a more corse stone, like a 400.
> 
> My girlfriend has several super cheap, what seam like dollar store knives. I've tried to sharpen them, and it doesn't seem to work well. Strange how cheap steel doesn't easily sharpen. It makes me want a high quality knife, so I can really see the difference when I sharpen and use it.
> 
> I also need to figure out a cheap way to flatten the stone, or buy something to do it with.





Watched a guy on Youtube sharpen a knife from the dollar store to be able to push cut a piece of paper. If you can believe he did this it is doable but probably not by me.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts

If that dollar store knife is made of 420J2 that has been heat treated well, you can probably get it as sharp as a $50 class stainless knife easily. And it will even be usable if you are doing low board contact, low wear tasks with it. To the contrary, I find the higher-carbon stainless in slightly more expensive knives (1.4116/Ex-Fifty-Kermoff-Howyadoin. Some, curiously, seem fine - HT differences?) seems to hit a brick wall and continue to feel coarse if you try to sharpen it further...

Of course, a truly cheap n nasty knife could be .. in the worst case, zamak cast into a wedge shape I guess


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## Matus

JKI are great stones. I have used several (but far from all). There is one stone that stands out that was not mentioned yet - the AI#1000 from Watanabe . It is the fastest medium grit stone I have ever used, is splash & go (may not be soaked) and feels really nice. I use it in my knifemaking process to set/check bevels as it is so fast. It can really be used directly after 220 stone.

From JKI I would recommend the Gesshin 2000 which is about as fast as most 1000 stones. It is a great, great stone. Fast, very good feedback, slowly dishing. I recommend permasoaking it.

For a finishing stone I can recommend the JKI Synthetic Natural - it gives refined edge with enough bite for pretty much any ktichen application. The only way to get a 'better' edge is to go to Ohira Suita (or similar), which is entirely different price category and you need a fine stone prior to suita anyhow - so keep that just for a future reference  Or just get some 6000 grit stone. I would be tempted by the Gesshin 6000S as I already have the 400, 2000 and 4000 from that 'series' (loosely speaking).

Add a coarse stone (Gesshin 400S I would naively guess, the Gesshin 400 which I have dishes a bit too fast, otherwise it is a great stone for wide bevels) and you are set.

... OR ...

Get a loan  and buy the Gesshin 800 Diamond Stone + a finishinig stone (The synthetic natural, for example). I am drooling over the 800 since a long time. One day I will get it


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## jstark

So I've been practicing with my knives and stones, I'm definitely getting results and learning. However, I haven't thus far been able to get an edge that would shave hair off my dry arm, similar to how my knives came, or pocket knives I've had in the past. Still getting maybe uneven results along the whole blade, noticeable when I try to cut paper, and closer to the tip is not as sharp. The knives I'm using are Henkel Twin Four Star, the forged set. 57 hardness. They call them "High Carbon" But I've read that it might be as low as .5 carbon, which isn't really high from my understanding. 

Anyway, I'm using a King 1k/6k. Any words of tips/wisdom on how to get a sharper edge than what I'm currently getting? Is this just something that comes with practice? 
I'm glad I've been practicing with these before moving on to a Japanese knife.


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## K813zra

jstark said:


> So I've been practicing with my knives and stones, I'm definitely getting results and learning. However, I haven't thus far been able to get an edge that would shave hair off my dry arm, similar to how my knives came, or pocket knives I've had in the past. Still getting maybe uneven results along the whole blade, noticeable when I try to cut paper, and closer to the tip is not as sharp. The knives I'm using are Henkel Twin Four Star, the forged set. 57 hardness. They call them "High Carbon" But I've read that it might be as low as .5 carbon, which isn't really high from my understanding.
> 
> Anyway, I'm using a King 1k/6k. Any words of tips/wisdom on how to get a sharper edge than what I'm currently getting? Is this just something that comes with practice?
> I'm glad I've been practicing with these before moving on to a Japanese knife.



It does come with time. Start with this if you are looking for tips. If you click to watch on youtube it is a whole playlist.  Jon shows technique on how to deal with the tip of a knife on the stones. I use a bastardized version that works for me. You will develop your own technique but watching these videos will help, or at least they did for me.

[video=youtube;GB3jkRi1dKs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB3jkRi1dKs&list=PLEBF55079F53216AB[/video]


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## labor of love

Matus said:


> JKI are great stones. I have used several (but far from all). There is one stone that stands out that was not mentioned yet - the AI#1000 from Watanabe . It is the fastest medium grit stone I have ever used, is splash & go (may not be soaked) and feels really nice. I use it in my knifemaking process to set/check bevels as it is so fast. It can really be used directly after 220 stone.
> 
> From JKI I would recommend the Gesshin 2000 which is about as fast as most 1000 stones. It is a great, great stone. Fast, very good feedback, slowly dishing. I recommend permasoaking it.
> 
> For a finishing stone I can recommend the JKI Synthetic Natural - it gives refined edge with enough bite for pretty much any ktichen application. The only way to get a 'better' edge is to go to Ohira Suita (or similar), which is entirely different price category and you need a fine stone prior to suita anyhow - so keep that just for a future reference  Or just get some 6000 grit stone. I would be tempted by the Gesshin 6000S as I already have the 400, 2000 and 4000 from that 'series' (loosely speaking).
> 
> Add a coarse stone (Gesshin 400S I would naively guess, the Gesshin 400 which I have dishes a bit too fast, otherwise it is a great stone for wide bevels) and you are set.
> 
> ... OR ...
> 
> Get a loan  and buy the Gesshin 800 Diamond Stone + a finishinig stone (The synthetic natural, for example). I am drooling over the 800 since a long time. One day I will get it



A little off topic but...I'd love to hear from anyone that's used a gesh 2k and wat AI 2k. For sharpening I use wat 1k and gesh 4k, gets the job completed quickly and I love gesh 4k edge.


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## Benuser

Just not reaching the very edge. The marker trick is great, but for the very edge go a bit further. With new or not that well maintained edges it will help.
Burrs tend to appear as well before you've reached the very edge.
So, if you think you've reached the very edge, raise the spine a bit.


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## foody518

A coarse stone to save your 1k's lifetime. Those kinds of knives are thick, particularly the ones that boast they are "forged". High angles to actually reach the edge, otherwise thinning/using an acute angle and a coarse stone to actually take enough steel off

I find the profiles of those with the belly and high tip more challenging to reach the tip consistently, though it depends on your method of sharpening. Practice and the learning curve around those shapes


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## labor of love

Henkel twin 4 star? I wouldn't bother going above 2k edge with those personally. I have one actually, a boning knife. I'm happy with a 1k edge + stopping.


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## Matus

labor of love said:


> A little off topic but...I'd love to hear from anyone that's used a gesh 2k and wat AI 2k. For sharpening I use wat 1k and gesh 4k, gets the job completed quickly and I love gesh 4k edge.



I new I should have bought the AI#2k  Seriously - I expect the Gesshin to be the faster stone as the AI#2k was specifically designed to give a nice smooth finish. But a comparison of the two here on KKF is indeed long overdue


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## Keith Sinclair




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