# Putting a Good Grind On a Sticky Knife?!?



## TEWNCfarms (Jun 1, 2018)

Is this possible? Can I put a I guess it a convex grind on my flat ground k-tip gyuto Gekko? I got the Masashi Kobo SLD and it looks like the sides of the blade come out/bow out from the edge and spine? Is this correct? Could I thin out the edge of the Gekko to achieve a better grind? Now that I have this Masashi this Gekko is going to be my experimental knife. Any suggestions? I have no idea. Thanks


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## HRC_64 (Jun 1, 2018)

choil shot would be super useful


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## HRC_64 (Jun 1, 2018)

also, this..

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...n-of-Asymmetry?p=508178&viewfull=1#post508178




Kippington said:


> *A Basic Explanation of Asymmetry*
> 
> Way back when I began sharpening I remember reading through many forum threads about asymmetry in double bevel knives and having no idea what was going on. All this talk about 70/30 and 80/20, "You should be doing this and shouldn't do that", but no real explanation for what was actually going on. So I ignored the whole thing and went on sharpening in my 50/50 way.
> 
> ...


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 2, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> also, this..
> 
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...n-of-Asymmetry?p=508178&viewfull=1#post508178



Thanks so much, Ill take a picture tomorrow.

I had read this a week or so ago, you or someone else suggested it, really good read very informative. 

I just tried out this Masashi, and it didnt let the potato fall off like I hoped... it definitely has an attempt to, its on the verge but still sticks. I tried doing a 70/30 edge when I sharpened it up but i did forget to add a micro bevel... any suggestions? Im going to cut some potatoes tomorrow at work and take some home and work on the sharpening maybe I can get it to just fall off. Because its hanging off on the top but the bottom half is sticking. This was russet


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## HRC_64 (Jun 2, 2018)

If you look at figure 4, it will show the the problem
as the one side is ~flat and the other side is convex.
its really hard to make the flat side convex,
as the metal is gone...unless the whole thing
is very thick to start out with. 

Note that figure 4 is showing the L-R assymetry, but
the similar point more specifically
for the picture is you cannot make a righty
knife a lefty (=reverse the symmetry)
...basically for the same
reason...the asymmetry of the grind
is primary here for food release,
the assymetry of the edge is just
to correct for the assymetry of the 
grind. 

edge assymetry is ieasier to reverse,
because the amount of metal is larger
in proportion to the shaping &#8710;

You can howver usually tweak
some (low) convexity into the
edge if its thick, but this is usually
more about cut quality
than about food release,
as most of the action for food
release is up higher (grind vs edge)


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 2, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> If you look at figure 4, it will show the the problem
> as the one side is ~flat and the other side is convex.
> its really hard to make the flat side convex,
> as the metal is gone...unless the whole thing
> ...



Ahhh! Thanks for helping with that, Im starting to grasp it. Maybe Im chopping the wrong way... maybe I should go left to right? Im going to have to do some studying tomorrow and some practicing.

Ill take a picture of both knives so you can get a look see at what Ive got


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 2, 2018)

Well I guess Ill be holding off any sharpening or cutting for a day or two, got called into work because this one guy was being a baby thinking it was going to be busy and it wasnt I left after 3 hours. But OF COURSE while Im there within an hour I was cutting bacon and it slipped and took a Chunk out of my thumb!!! A good chunk, had to shove it in some coffee grinds to get it to stop bleeding, hurt like hell! I swear Im not Ever cutting bacon again, last time I cut some a few months ago I cut myself but not nearly as bad. Thank GOD it wasnt worse than it is though. I put this curse of this cut on my co worker being a baby convincing them to bring me in today! Bas tard!


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 2, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> choil shot would be super useful


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 2, 2018)

The top one is the Masashi and the bottom is the Gekko


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 2, 2018)

This is what I get most of the time, now sometimes it releases good, but what am I doing wrong on my sharpening?!!? I rewatched the Korin video on 70/30 and realized for the past months Ive been doing the sides reverse what they say. They have the 70 side on the right and 30 on the left...? This is the Masashi by the way


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 2, 2018)

So I tried multiple sharpening techniques and then decided to revert back to a higher angle 50/50 instead of my low angled 70/30 and the food release was much better! Maybe Im sharpening my edge to low?! I added Jons microbevel as well. Im just trying to get it perfect and obtain the best food release!


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## JBroida (Jun 2, 2018)

maybe closeup pictures of your edge might help?


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 3, 2018)

JBroida said:


> maybe closeup pictures of your edge might help?



Cool thanks Ill take some now and post


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 3, 2018)

JBroida said:


> maybe closeup pictures of your edge might help?



Heres the edges as best as I could get them with my iPhone which is all I have... the top two are the Gekko I believe, thats not that good of a grind, and the bottom two the Masashi with the good grind... you cant really tell much but hopefully itll be enough for you all to help me out. Thanks!


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## JBroida (Jun 5, 2018)

So, obviously i cant tell much about cross sectional geometry from these, but i can see a lot of sharpening inconsistencies at the edge that would contribute to a lackluster cutting performance. You can see that light reflects all over the place with those edges... there are sections where your angle was too high, some where it was too low, and a lot of rounding over of the edges. Here are some pictures of what an edge should look like:


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## Dave Martell (Jun 5, 2018)

Tenn, I have to agree with Jon here. You've got a lot of bevels/angles going on so it's pretty safe to say that you're not going to be getting much in the way of performance.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 5, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Tenn, I have to agree with Jon here. You've got a lot of bevels/angles going on so it's pretty safe to say that you're not going to be getting much in the way of performance.


Cool I really appreciate it guys
Im really glad I saw this now just left my farm house and I have the phone lens magnifier there, just turned around and got it, its 30 min from home. I kept forgetting to grab it, so now Ill take a good picture of the bevels and let you all check them out and see what you say then. I really appreciate it!


JBroida said:


> So, obviously i cant tell much about cross sectional geometry from these, but i can see a lot of sharpening inconsistencies at the edge that would contribute to a lackluster cutting performance. You can see that light reflects all over the place with those edges... there are sections where your angle was too high, some where it was too low, and a lot of rounding over of the edges. Here are some pictures of what an edge should look like:


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 5, 2018)

JBroida said:


> maybe closeup pictures of your edge might help?



Okay so here you go. Im so stupid too I completely forgot about this wonderful little feature on my iPhone called Zoom and was able to take better pictures with it. So sorry I know this is a lot of pictures but Ill keep them as linked thumbnails and this is basically both sides of both knives along the whole edge. Thanks for everyones input! Thanks Jon!


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 5, 2018)

Also the Damascus is the Gekko the clad is Masashi that I just got. Sharpened only twice... also I tried to get the best lighting so you could see the bevel and not just light reflecting, so I hope theyre good


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## HRC_64 (Jun 5, 2018)

what is going on here? 

https://ibb.co/fhGPNo


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## McMan (Jun 5, 2018)

Jon and Dave answered your question, no?


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## JBroida (Jun 5, 2018)

Yeah... the new pictures show the same thing in better detail... same issues though


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 5, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> what is going on here?
> 
> https://ibb.co/fhGPNo



Haha you mean how its high on one end and low on the other?! Yeah I had no idea I was doing. Its so crazy how a couple months ago I thought I figured out Everything about sharpening and yeah Id get it sharp, but now Im entering this realm of insane detail about knives and sharpening, and the more I learn the more I learn I have No idea what Im doing!


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 5, 2018)

JBroida said:


> So, obviously i cant tell much about cross sectional geometry from these, but i can see a lot of sharpening inconsistencies at the edge that would contribute to a lackluster cutting performance. You can see that light reflects all over the place with those edges... there are sections where your angle was too high, some where it was too low, and a lot of rounding over of the edges. Here are some pictures of what an edge should look like:



Holy crap! That edge is insanely perfect! Did you do that yourself? With freehand?! I had no idea I was doing all that wonky work until you pointed I out, thanks!


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 5, 2018)

JBroida said:


> Yeah... the new pictures show the same thing in better detail... same issues though



Cool thanks. What are some pointers to fix it? Just take my time and be more careful and accurate? How does the rolling of the edge exactly occur? Going to high when the edge was low from a few passes before?


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 5, 2018)

McMan said:


> Jon and Dave answered your question, no?



They answered questions I didnt even know I had. And I guess the answer to the grind question is No I cant really change the grind? Or can I from doing thinning?


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## daveb (Jun 5, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> what is going on here?
> 
> https://ibb.co/fhGPNo



That looks like the old thin behind the edge and put two bevels on the blade in one stroke method of sharpening. Don't ask me how I know....


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 5, 2018)

daveb said:


> That looks like the old thin behind the edge and put two bevels on the blade in one stroke method of sharpening. Don't ask me how I know....



Hahaha I was wondering if anyone would recognize this old technique, I brought it back from 1789


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## panda (Jun 6, 2018)

all this can be explained by one simple truth: you are not holding a steady angle, meaning you are wobbling up and down too much. we've all gone through this, just takes many hours more muscle memory and refinement through practice.


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## McMan (Jun 6, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> Cool thanks. What are some pointers to fix it? Just take my time and be more careful and accurate? How does the rolling of the edge exactly occur? Going to high when the edge was low from a few passes before?



Yup, what Panda said.

Pointer = try to keep your wrist and elbow locked. Rolled edge comes from raising the spine too high. Wavy bevel comes from putting the spine to low. Rolled edge + Wavy bevel comes from raising spine too much _and_ not enough. 

Rolled + Wavy bevel is probably a product of (1) not locking your wrist or elbow or both; (2) inconsistent angle during push/pull (edge-leading/edge-trailing)--lowering spine on away-stroke and pulling up spine on towards-stroke; and/or (3) fingers on the blade not consistent (too hard, too soft pressure) or putting different pressure in different places on the strokes.
Probably a _combination_ of 1,2,3...

Solution = try the pointer about arm position; pay attention to 1,2,3 when you sharpen; watch Jon's videos A LOT. Every time I watch them I learn. 

Last--KFF's "Search" feature is your friend--many of your problems are well-known issues and other threads have tackled them.


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## McMan (Jun 6, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> They answered questions I didnt even know I had. And I guess the answer to the grind question is No I cant really change the grind? Or can I from doing thinning?



You cant add metal, you can only take it away.
Plus, Kippington dropped knowledge on your question about grind! 
Asking the same question multiple ways won't get different answers :groucho::angryspin:


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## ThEoRy (Jun 6, 2018)

I thought we had this conversation before. Remember the 6-8000 grit only thread? What I see here are uneven and multifaceted edges which is a direct result of improperly using those high grit stones. As I said before:



ThEoRy said:


> Couple reasons. The knife's effectiveness against product obviously and the stone's cutting speed against the knife. Which in effect cuts down on sharpening mistakes. The longer you stand there sharpening the more opportunity you have to mess things up. If a 6k stone removes x amount of steel within 100 strokes while a 1k stone removes the same amount of steel within 30 strokes why stand there longer than you need to?



Your current method is ineffective in creating crisp even bevels. You need to drop down, cut in a fresh crispy bevel and polish it up to 5-6k then strop. Less work per stone means less work at the stones and less mistakes.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 6, 2018)

McMan said:


> Yup, what Panda said.
> 
> Pointer = try to keep your wrist and elbow locked. Rolled edge comes from raising the spine too high. Wavy bevel comes from putting the spine to low. Rolled edge + Wavy bevel comes from raising spine too much _and_ not enough.
> 
> ...



Thanks this was really informative, I didnt think about the pressure. Yeah I started rewatching his videos and really paying attention


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 6, 2018)

McMan said:


> You cant add metal, you can only take it away.
> Plus, Kippington dropped knowledge on your question about grind!
> Asking the same question multiple ways won't get different answers :groucho::angryspin:



Haha yeah I know I do that a lot with just about everything


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 6, 2018)

ThEoRy said:


> I thought we had this conversation before. Remember the 6-8000 grit only thread? What I see here are uneven and multifaceted edges which is a direct result of improperly using those high grit stones. As I said before:
> 
> 
> 
> Your current method is ineffective in creating crisp even bevels. You need to drop down, cut in a fresh crispy bevel and polish it up to 5-6k then strop. Less work per stone means less work at the stones and less mistakes.



Yeah I see what youre saying. I still go down to a 1k and only do it a few times until burr on both sides and then on the 6k same thing. Thanks


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## Jville (Jun 6, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> Yeah I see what youre saying. I still go down to a 1k and only do it a few times until burr on both sides and then on the 6k same thing. Thanks



You shouldn't be raising a burr on the 6k if you've already raised it on the 1k.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 6, 2018)

Jville said:


> You shouldn't be raising a burr on the 6k if you've already raised it on the 1k.



Why do you say that? It literally raises after like a pass or two on both sides thats it


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## Dave Martell (Jun 6, 2018)

TEWNC, I think you've got a few issues that you should work on, these are things all of us did (or do) at one time or another.

1. You need to grind a nice clean crisp bevel.

This is your foundation to build on. You need to use a fast cutting coarse stone that stays flat(ish) and that you keep flat throughout the process.. Be slow, take your time, be deliberate, stop and look at what you're doing, make changes as necessary. You will spend 90% of your sharpening time on this step. Do not move on until you have a perfect looking edge along the entire length - no multi facets allowed. If you fail here your edge will suck.


2. De-burr after this stone.

This isn't a necessary step for an experienced sharpener but it helps a ton for a beginner. Draw the edge, like a pull stroke cut, through something that has self healing properties to it (something that won't round the edge) like say a real cork or thick cut felt block. This will pull the loose burrs off the edge leaving the edge exposed for the next stone essentially getting the (larger coarse ground) burr out of the way.


3. Don't go higher than 3-4k grit stone. OK you can use a 5 or 6k IF you know it's a stone that leaves a toothy edge, that doesn't refine much but this is the only exception. Finer grit stones should be reserved for refined edge use for specialty cuts, for general use finer grit edges fail. Plus the finer the stone used, especially when new at sharpening, the more likely a chance to round over your edge through wobbling. Yes you'll still wobble with a 3-4k stone but at least your edge won't be smooth, it'll still have some bite to it.


4. Strop but only if you have some good kit. Using a stone to strop will align the wire edge and make you feel like a champ but it won't deburr through removing burrs, only a strop (that has draw - some pull/resitance to it) will do this. Of course a crappy strop and/or crappy technique will kill your nice edge so GO S_L_O_W and deliberate here, you'll be rewarded for your patience. It won't hurt to load your strop with some diamond compound in the 1mic range, this will add some bite and help work against your refined wobble edge.


There's probably some angle issues going on here too but that's a bit much to address. 

Happy sharpening!


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 6, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> TEWNC, I think you've got a few issues that you should work on, these are things all of us did (or do) at one time or another.
> 
> 1. You need to grind a nice clean crisp bevel.
> 
> ...



Haha yeah Ill stick with this for now and get it down, and then come back to you to talk about the angles. Question though about the angle... with following your instructions which I Really Appreciate, should I Just stick with a 50/50 bevel with 3 pennies or something as my basis? Or go with the 70/30 and use the 2 penny/3 penny guide? I dont want to get to work sharpening and realize Ive put a completely wrong angle on there. Just a basic angle, then when I get these instructions down, Ill come back to you for the advanced angles.

Again I Really Appreciate the help and your informative instructions!

Now on the 6k stone I have, its just the cheap king 1k/6k kw65, so Im sure its not that great of a 6k its probably not a real 6k. Is this fine? Because I dont have a 3 or 4K stone. I have a Nakayama medium coming in the next few weeks from 330mate, will this be too fine of a stone? Should I buy a 3/4K? Which one?

Also on the strop, I was just using newspaper, but was going to buy some cheap leather strop off eBay... its like $15 and cones with a softer and coarser side, is this fine? I just saw the other night that saltydog on his video has a Balsa wood 4 sided leather strop which I really want to make but dont know if I have the money for that right now. But I am definitely going to make it one day and follow his directions on it. Should I just save up for that? Or just buy the cheap leather strop and some compound and use that for now?

Thanks so much for your help, Im going to be working on my knives tonight!


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## Dave Martell (Jun 6, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> Haha yeah Ill stick with this for now and get it down, and then come back to you to talk about the angles. Question though about the angle... with following your instructions which I Really Appreciate, should I Just stick with a 50/50 bevel with 3 pennies or something as my basis? Or go with the 70/30 and use the 2 penny/3 penny guide? I dont want to get to work sharpening and realize Ive put a completely wrong angle on there. Just a basic angle, then when I get these instructions down, Ill come back to you for the advanced angles.



Put the pennies back in your pocket. :thumbsup:

Maybe this can help... 

*Asymmetry - The REAL DEAL
*








TEWNCfarms said:


> Now on the 6k stone I have, its just the cheap king 1k/6k kw65, so Im sure its not that great of a 6k its probably not a real 6k. Is this fine? Because I dont have a 3 or 4K stone. I have a Nakayama medium coming in the next few weeks from 330mate, will this be too fine of a stone? Should I buy a 3/4K? Which one?



The King 6k has never been a favorite of mine, seemed to always make things worse but I was a new sharpener back when I used it last. 

My personal favorite general purpose stone in that range is the Suehiro Rika 5k. It makes for a really toothy edge that's sort of like a 3-4k yet refined and best of all it crunches down burrs nicely. It can make some single bevels look nice too but that's a side use type of thing.

The Chosera 3k is a pretty nice stone in this range too.

I use a Beston 500x, Bester 1200x, and Suehiro Rika 5k for almost all (small) double bevels, it's the core of my sharpening set up. Not everyone loves these stones though, especially the Beston 500x as this needs pressure to work correctly or it loads up from lack of capillary action. If you sharpen lightly this stone won't be your friend. The other two are winners and easy to use, they go together like peanut butter and jelly.

If the King 1k is your coarsest stone then this is your PRIMARY problem - fix this before moving on. :wink:







TEWNCfarms said:


> Also on the strop, I was just using newspaper, but was going to buy some cheap leather strop off eBay... its like $15 and cones with a softer and coarser side, is this fine? I just saw the other night that saltydog on his video has a Balsa wood 4 sided leather strop which I really want to make but dont know if I have the money for that right now. But I am definitely going to make it one day and follow his directions on it. Should I just save up for that? Or just buy the cheap leather strop and some compound and use that for now?



Most leather will work on some level. Getting a softer leather that has some draw/drag to it is nice to help with deburring but if it's too soft it'll round (dub) over your edge. It is important to mount the leather on a hard substrate to help it to resist movement and compression.

Maybe the ebay strop is good, who knows? It's always an experiment even if you do it yourself.

On compounds, avoid chromium oxide (the green stuff) as it's particles are round, it rounds an edge easily. It can also make for a very keen edge too. A keen smooth edge works great on a yanagiba but it's horrible for a gyuto. Think diamond compounds for a gyuto, they'll make for a toothy edge that grips those tomatoes. 

Technique is pretty important when using a strop, especially a leather strop. I always see people going ballistic on their strops and they wonder why they ruined their edge or they say the strop sucks, etc. 

See *Stropping/De-Burring with Leather* for some tips here.







TEWNCfarms said:


> Thanks so much for your help



You're welcome!


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 6, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Put the pennies back in your pocket. :thumbsup:
> 
> Maybe this can help...
> 
> ...


The link you posted didnt show up but when I quoted you it did, I actually have read that a few times. Ill stick with that then. Hahaha on the pennies. I guess my only question now is, does it matter what degree the angles are? Or just stick with the ones I choose? I dont want to go too high or low for re-beveling. I remember seeing on one of Jons videos that he just says angles dont matter that much just stick to one...

Also yeah I stopped using the 1k side about a month ago or less, I got a Binsui (really I and others think its an Amakusa) that I use as my medium grade stone. Its much better than the king from my little experience... 330mate said its a 600-800/1000 but I feel like the 1k king is more coarse. Anyway to tell exactly what the grit besides guessing? Should I get a 1200 Bester since all the other natural stones that Ive found are like $100+. There are some Aizu-To that are around $70, would this be good for another medium grit? Is the Nakayama going to be good for my finishing stone? I just really like the natural stones, using a piece of ancient history you know... thanks for the Suehiro suggestion too.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 6, 2018)

panda said:


> all this can be explained by one simple truth: you are not holding a steady angle, meaning you are wobbling up and down too much. we've all gone through this, just takes many hours more muscle memory and refinement through practice.



Thanks


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jun 6, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> The link you posted didnt show up but when I quoted you it did, I actually have read that a few times. Ill stick with that then. Hahaha on the pennies. I guess my only question now is, does it matter what degree the angles are? Or just stick with the ones I choose? I dont want to go too high or low for re-beveling. I remember seeing on one of Jons videos that he just says angles dont matter that much just stick to one...
> 
> Also yeah I stopped using the 1k side about a month ago or less, I got a Binsui (really I and others think its an Amakusa) that I use as my medium grade stone. Its much better than the king from my little experience... 330mate said its a 600-800/1000 but I feel like the 1k king is more coarse. Anyway to tell exactly what the grit besides guessing? Should I get a 1200 Bester since all the other natural stones that Ive found are like $100+. There are some Aizu-To that are around $70, would this be good for another medium grit? Is the Nakayama going to be good for my finishing stone? I just really like the natural stones, using a piece of ancient history you know... thanks for the Suehiro suggestion too.



Until you can get a clean, hair popping edge on your knife with the King 1000 (or amakusa/binsui), you are wasting money buying more stones. Sharpening is 95% technique and 5% stones. The key is practice, and a lot of it. 

Angles. Don't overthink angles (or asymmetry). At this stage of your journey, concentrate on getting the bevel correct. Fifteen degrees is a good place to start. Cut some cardboard or balsa wood wedges and use them to get an idea of where the spine of the knife is in relation to the stone and concentrate on keeping that relationship while sharpening. Yes, that will give you a tip area that is at a lower angle, but dealing with that can come later.

Rick


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## nonoyes (Jun 6, 2018)

Wow. These pictures, my chef's knife and a loupe just got together and taught me a humbling lesson about sharpening. And boy were they mad at me. My edge has spots with 2 or more angles going on and a couple of places where a nice wide bevel just kind of tapers off and gets thinner and steeper like that dirt trail going around that hill in Mendocino. And the tip of my knife can only wish it had a separate bevel on it at all. 

This thread has been illuminating to say the least. Hats off to all of you posting links, tips, tricks, and reminders all so clearly explained. Going to read that sharpening mistakes thread again and then try to cut in a crispy new bevel.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 6, 2018)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Until you can get a clean, hair popping edge on your knife with the King 1000 (or amakusa/binsui), you are wasting money buying more stones. Sharpening is 95% technique and 5% stones. The key is practice, and a lot of it.
> 
> Angles. Don't overthink angles (or asymmetry). At this stage of your journey, concentrate on getting the bevel correct. Fifteen degrees is a good place to start. Cut some cardboard or balsa wood wedges and use them to get an idea of where the spine of the knife is in relation to the stone and concentrate on keeping that relationship while sharpening. Yes, that will give you a tip area that is at a lower angle, but dealing with that can come later.
> 
> Rick



Thanks so much on the angle, do I use a compass or something to find that 15 degrees or something?

And I actually can get a razor edge that will shave my hairs off, but I guess all this detail about my bevel and edge came from my wanting better food release, haha and look where Ive ended up! Back at the basics. So honestly if it hadnt of been for this new knife which I Love and trying to get better food release which it does have good release when I cut a +1/2 slice of potato, but I was trying to get like those videos of saltydogs where he slices thinly through a potato and it doesnt stick at all (watching those again made me realize there are Really nice knives that stick Really bad so that made me happy) but if not for me asking about a better grind I would have never realized my sharpening needed some honing ahh see what I did there! So yeah I can currently get a Razor Hair Shaving edge on whatever knife I use, Butttt my technique has apparently been Very Inconsistent. 

Thanks for the help!


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 6, 2018)

nonoyes said:


> Wow. These pictures, my chef's knife and a loupe just got together and taught me a humbling lesson about sharpening. And boy were they mad at me. My edge has spots with 2 or more angles going on and a couple of places where a nice wide bevel just kind of tapers off and gets thinner and steeper like that dirt trail going around that hill in Mendocino. And the tip of my knife can only wish it had a separate bevel on it at all.
> 
> This thread has been illuminating to say the least. Hats off to all of you posting links, tips, tricks, and reminders all so clearly explained. Going to read that sharpening mistakes thread again and then try to cut in a crispy new bevel.



Haha I know I had No idea myself honestly, and I would have thought I was good if not for Jons pictures of that perfect bevel, its looks like a machine did it!


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jun 6, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> Thanks so much on the angle, do I use a compass or something to find that 15 degrees or something?



A protractor:


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## Nemo (Jun 6, 2018)

Or just use geometry.

1 in 2 is 30 degrees.
1 in 3 is about 20 degrees
1 in 4 is about 16 degrees.
1 in 5 is about 14 degrees.

Edit: I realise the numbers above are not quite right. In fact,
1 in 2 is 30 degrees.
1 in 3 is about 20 degrees
1 in 4 is about 15 degrees.
1 in 5 is about 11.5 degrees.
1 in 6 is about 9.5 degrees.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## labor of love (Jun 6, 2018)

Theres actually an app on your smart that you use. First lay your phone flat on a stone then set it, then lift one side of the phone and it can show the angle in degrees.


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## K813zra (Jun 6, 2018)

You guys are so hi-tec...If you want to simply find the angle on a knife you can lay it flat on the stone and slowly raise the spine while moving the knife forward. When the edge bites into the stone and stops you have found the very edge of your edge or maybe a bit in front of that. Drop back a degree or two and you are sharpening the edge and drop back a few more and you are thinning behind the edge, sharpening the relief bevel etc. This won't tell you what angle you are at and if you have some extremely obtuse micro bevel cut into the edge it won't put you where you want to be but it is a starting point. Get an edge that works and adjust from there. If you go to far, well, adjust the other direction. There is no need to complicate rubbing metal on a rock. You can complicate it and that will come later but for now, go simple. Let the knife tell you what it wants and if it doesn't know then beat it into submission...lol.

I agree with Rick, stick with the Amaksua or the King. Honestly, I prefer my Amakusa to my King 1k, hands down too. That is beside the point. Say it falls somewhere in the 800-1200 grit range, you can still put a great edge on your knife with that if mighty toothy. Reducing pressure on a stone, slowly, can really get you the most possible out of each stone. 

Edit: I didn't notice LOL's post. I guess that works and gives you visual too. Interesting way to go about things but way to techy for me. :laugh:


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## labor of love (Jun 7, 2018)

Yeah, I actually wasnt advocating using that app or a protractor or anything of the sort but figured if thats what someone else is into why not throw it out there. I have no idea what degree I sharpen or thin at. Indeed these things vary from knife to knife and it did take me a little time in the beginning to get a feel for how its done. Experience is the best teacher.


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## panda (Jun 7, 2018)

i'm pretty sure all my knives have different angles on them and change by a degree or two every time i sharpen.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

Nemo said:


> Or just use geometry.
> 
> 1 in 2 is 30 degrees.
> 1 in 3 is about 20 degrees
> ...



Now this one just threw me for a loop! One of what?


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## niwaki-boy (Jun 7, 2018)

The last three posts are the way. If I show someone how to sharpen, I first have them run the knife on a cutting board (wood) with the basics of movement/hand/arm positioning then Ill show where the edge lives. After that its onto a stone w/sharpie painted blade as I try to explain burr and the sound..


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Theres actually an app on your smart that you use. First lay your phone flat on a stone then set it, then lift one side of the phone and it can show the angle in degrees.



Yeah I went online and traced a 15degree on paper and used that as a guide to see, the 3 pennies is 15 and the 2 pennies are 12 or so. But like Dave said put those back in my pocket, I used them as a guide at first to Slowly work on moving back and forth and to and fro without wobbling and raising like I used to, I did that for about an hour Really slow until I could feel and see it. I was watching the knifes edge and it hit me, 3 pennies is not going to be Exactly 15 up the whole spine, and I could see it on the edge I was making. So I put em back in my pocket and still went slow, but realized to really keep the bevel the same angle I couldnt rely on the pennies, so I kept looking at the bevel and would work on an area that hasnt gotten hit like it shouldtypically the tip and heel, sometimes a spot in between.

But I, think, I finished my Gekko. It looks a lot better, and because I dont really have money or anything to cut at home, it cuts a lot better through paper too! 

I REALLY appreciate Everyones help so much!!! I had no idea I had a problem, and after about 2.5hours I think I resolved it on one knife. The Masashi shouldnt take nearly as long now that I have the motions and feel for steadiness now, and its only been sharpened 3x in its entire life. Ill post some pictures in a minute, feel free to point out anything anyone.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

K813zra said:


> You guys are so hi-tec...If you want to simply find the angle on a knife you can lay it flat on the stone and slowly raise the spine while moving the knife forward. When the edge bites into the stone and stops you have found the very edge of your edge or maybe a bit in front of that. Drop back a degree or two and you are sharpening the edge and drop back a few more and you are thinning behind the edge, sharpening the relief bevel etc. This won't tell you what angle you are at and if you have some extremely obtuse micro bevel cut into the edge it won't put you where you want to be but it is a starting point. Get an edge that works and adjust from there. If you go to far, well, adjust the other direction. There is no need to complicate rubbing metal on a rock. You can complicate it and that will come later but for now, go simple. Let the knife tell you what it wants and if it doesn't know then beat it into submission...lol.
> 
> I agree with Rick, stick with the Amaksua or the King. Honestly, I prefer my Amakusa to my King 1k, hands down too. That is beside the point. Say it falls somewhere in the 800-1200 grit range, you can still put a great edge on your knife with that if mighty toothy. Reducing pressure on a stone, slowly, can really get you the most possible out of each stone.
> 
> Edit: I didn't notice LOL's post. I guess that works and gives you visual too. Interesting way to go about things but way to techy for me. :laugh:



Yeah I saw saltydog how he lays his knives flat at first then raises them to the spot, I started doing this and sometimes Id do a little finger/nail rub against the stone going into the blade to see how much gap is left between the edge and the stone.

Thanks for saying that about the Amakusa, its definitely versatile. If I can raise a slurry which honestly is kind of hard for me sometimes, Im still working on it, it cuts fast but if I keep it really wet it becomes much more slick and smooth.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

panda said:


> i'm pretty sure all my knives have different angles on them and change by a degree or two every time i sharpen.



Thats interesting and good to know. I just become real OCD at times about stuff, especially stuff I dont know much about, then the day comes when Im like eh... which already happened with the sharpening because I thought I knew everything, but now Im back to OCD


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## panda (Jun 7, 2018)

use a slurry stone to get it started 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004WFTB/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

Heres what Ive got so far...


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

panda said:


> use a slurry stone to get it started
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004WFTB/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



I have a natural nagura I got with it when I ordered it, doyou think the diamond would be better? I cant tell if its because I havent gotten it wet enough or if its too wet when I try to make the slurry with the nagura, Ive gotten some good slurry a few times when I first got it


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

Dave Martell said:


> Put the pennies back in your pocket. :thumbsup:
> 
> Maybe this can help...
> 
> ...



Thanks for the stropping link! 

Does it matter exactly what kind of leather? I found some at michaels thats like an assorted pack of leather scraps, though most seems pretty tough, I assume this is good? Then Im going to go up to hobby lobby tomorrow they should have a block of balsa wood for cheap so I can make my own. Thanks so much again for your help, its helped tremendously


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## panda (Jun 7, 2018)

you can also soak amakusa first


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

panda said:


> you can also soak amakusa first



Oh okay... I didnt know if itd be okay. I think I soaked it the first time and I think I got a good slurry then.


On the strop, should I Just use a Balsa block with compound? Or should I use leather on the balsa? Should I use compound on every side? At least Im going to do like 1micron and either .5 or .25micron on a block ... which would be better the .5 or .25 Im comjuction with the 1.mic? Or I may do like saltys block and have four sides... 1. - .5 - .25 - (nothing? He uses an 1/8micron), should I do this? And should I use just balsa or add leather? Thanks so much


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## panda (Jun 7, 2018)

dont bother with strop, that sh*t is stupid


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

panda said:


> dont bother with strop, that sh*t is stupid



Why do you say that? I havent used one, Ive just been using newspaper. But I want to make one so I dont have to sharpen as much. I tried Murray Carters method the other day with a newspaper sheet on a stone, it was alright.


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## Nemo (Jun 7, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> Now this one just threw me for a loop! One of what?


It's just trigonometry. Lay the blade flat on the stone. Raise the spine by half of the blade's height and you have made a 30 degree angle (sin 30 deg = 1/2).

Raise it by a third and you have about a 20 degree angle (sin 20 deg is about 1/3).

A quarter- you have about a 15 degree angle (sin 15 deg is about 1/4)

A fifth- you have about an 11.5 degree angle (sin 11.5 deg is about 1/5)

A sixth- About 9.5 degrees (sin 9.5 deg is about 1/6).


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## Mute-on (Jun 7, 2018)

Rise over run to give slope. So if you lift the spine of a blade that is 60mm deep off the stone surface by 10mm, leaving the edge on the stone, you will have created a (roughly) 9.5 degree sharpening angle.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

Nemo said:


> It's just trigonometry. Lay the blade flat on the stone. Raise the spine by half of the blade's height and you have made a 30 degree angle (sin 30 deg = 1/2).
> 
> Raise it by a third and you have about a 20 degree angle (sin 20 deg is about 1/3).
> 
> ...



Ohhhh! Man thats so crazy! I had no idea, thanks for that, that helps with a lot of different things!


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## K813zra (Jun 7, 2018)

As to your question about raising a slurry on the amakusa, I'd just use a diamond plate or diamond slurry stone. That is what I do on the harder amakusa. Mine is so soft it gets loaded with slurry when I look at it.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

K813zra said:


> As to your question about raising a slurry on the amakusa, I'd just use a diamond plate or diamond slurry stone. That is what I do on the harder amakusa. Mine is so soft it gets loaded with slurry when I look at it.



Cool thanks


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 7, 2018)

This is the Masashi which I did tonight, it cuts insane now, Im in love with this knife!


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## JBroida (Jun 8, 2018)

Looks a lot better, but the edge still seems to be rather jagged and might benefit from a bit more time in sharpening and a lot more effort in burr removal


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 8, 2018)

JBroida said:


> Looks a lot better, but the edge still seems to be rather jagged and might benefit from a bit more time in sharpening and a lot more effort in burr removal



Okay cool thanks for the input


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 8, 2018)

JBroida said:


> Looks a lot better, but the edge still seems to be rather jagged and might benefit from a bit more time in sharpening and a lot more effort in burr removal



When you say more time in sharpening, do you mean back to the rough grit or just medium grit? When I felt the edge and ran through paper I didnt feel a burr anywhere on it... could it still have a burr? Usually Ill feel it and it will get caught in paper or tear it


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## JBroida (Jun 9, 2018)

Yeah... burrs can feel very sharp and cut paper nicely, but may not hold up in actual cutting tasks. It may just be the pictures, but the edge does not look as clean as i would expect it to.


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 9, 2018)

JBroida said:


> Yeah... burrs can feel very sharp and cut paper nicely, but may not hold up in actual cutting tasks. It may just be the pictures, but the edge does not look as clean as i would expect it to.



Cool thanks Ill work on that


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## milkbaby (Jun 10, 2018)

The wire edge in the third drawing can often cut paper well, but once you start cutting food or making board contact it won't be sharp. It will roll or break off in an irregular manner, which may be leading to the jagged look at the edge in your pics.


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## Dave Martell (Jun 10, 2018)

:goodpost:


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 10, 2018)

milkbaby said:


> The wire edge in the third drawing can often cut paper well, but once you start cutting food or making board contact it won't be sharp. It will roll or break off in an irregular manner, which may be leading to the jagged look at the edge in your pics.



Ahhh now that makes complete sense! Whats the best way to remove a wire edge? Cork? I didnt think about the wire edge


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## daveb (Jun 10, 2018)

What does "Burrfection" say?:cool2:


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jun 10, 2018)

TEWNCfarms said:


> Ahhh now that makes complete sense! Whats the best way to remove a wire edge? Cork? I didnt think about the wire edge



You can think of a wire edge as a straight, rather than curled, burr. Deal with it the same way you would a burr.


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## nonoyes (Jun 10, 2018)

daveb said:


> What does "Burrfection" say?:cool2:


First, take a sharpening stone in your left hand, and a knife in your right hand, and do some single-pass edge-leading stropping strokes...

https://youtu.be/EoRijNUQPAw

It probably works but it's still funny.


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## daveb (Jun 10, 2018)

nonoyes said:


> First, take a sharpening stone in your left hand, and a knife in your right hand, and do some single-pass edge-leading stropping strokes...
> 
> https://youtu.be/EoRijNUQPAw
> 
> It probably works but it's still funny.



You do know I was being facetious? The kid could prob tell you how to remove a pimple but anything knife related I'm asking a grownup...


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## nonoyes (Jun 10, 2018)

daveb said:


> You do know I was being facetious?



Yes!


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## TEWNCfarms (Jun 10, 2018)

daveb said:


> What does "Burrfection" say?:cool2:



Hahaha well I dont know because you have to watch 1hr videos theres no short videos so i dont ever watch them hes a tool bag!


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## panda (Jun 10, 2018)




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## daveb (Jun 10, 2018)

You couldn't find a picture with Heidi in it?


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## panda (Jun 10, 2018)




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## daveb (Jun 10, 2018)

You've redeemed yourself.


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