# Just Another Fine Chat



## ModRQC (Jan 16, 2021)

Heya guys!

Arashiyama, Kitayama, Morihei Hi 6K, Morihei Karasu 9K...

Want the most refined possible edge that has just "that" amount of bite, no more. If it polishes, it's all well, but I really really want to focus on edge refinement. Still, I want a usable kitchen edge, not a razor.

Other suggestions? Naniwa Snow White?

Have at it please!


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## KingShapton (Jan 16, 2021)

We're still talking about synthetic stones ?!

I myself do not go that high with synthetic stones (with rare exceptions), so I can not use my own experience as much.

What I can tell you from my own experience, it is more worthwhile to stay in the range # 3000- # 5000 and improve your own technique. No matter how good your own results are, with practice, time and experience they get better and you get completely different and better results out of the same stones.

Another possibility would be some kind of "hybrid-edge". From a medium stone that leaves a good bite on a fine stone (# 6000- # 8000) just a light stropping, not more. That should result in a refined edge with enough bite.

And as a side note, I have repeatedly read in various forums that the Snow White should produce more bite than the Kitayama. But I also keep reading that the Snow White should have the problem with the hairline cracks ...


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## ModRQC (Jan 16, 2021)

Still, technique notwithstanding, it's the more refined edge of the SP5K that wins it over for me. Same technique applied, for any steel that takes it. I also like the Rika, if I want more bite it's where I stop.

Without going overboard, I'd like to see what finer still does for me. There's good feedback on all those I mentioned, but from general consensus I think Morihei 6K and Arashiyama leave more bite than I would care for with this purchase.

I'd like a fine J-nat, really, but the budget doesn't like these so much. Most of the cheaper J-Nats are rather on the med side of things, and don't look all too tempting to me anyhow.

I think Morihei stones like the Karasu have some Nats particles in them?

What's more attracting with a synth for me, in the particular parameters I intend for this purchase, is that I'm sure I really get a consistently finer abrasive. No good paying the big bucks for a fine J-Nats if some of the particles are rather med grits - hence lot of bite with refinement. Bite is easy to get.


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## dafox (Jan 16, 2021)

Had a little laugh when I saw where you are going next in your stone journey 

I had a Snow White 8K, and have an Arashyama 6K and a Kitayama 8K. I discovered that the Arashyama is just too fine for everyday kitchen knife use-its languishing in the stone box. I use the Kitayama as my last step in yanagiba sharpening, had the SW for that use but after reading about it realized that it was too hard for this use for me, the Kitayama being softer will leave a more even kasumi finish-less faceting.
I am interested to see what you discover.


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## ModRQC (Jan 16, 2021)

dafox said:


> Had a little laugh when I saw where you are going next in your stone journey
> 
> I had a Snow White 8K, and have an Arashyama 6K and a Kitayama 8K. I discovered that the Arashyama is just too fine for everyday kitchen knife use-its languishing in the stone box. I use the Kitayama as my last step in yanagiba sharpening, had the SW for that use but after reading about it realized that it was too hard for this use for me, the Kitayama being softer will leave a more even kasumi finish-less faceting.
> I am interested to see what you discover.



Thanks for direct insight on the choice at hand. BTW, since I seem to remember it was you last time around who was adamant I should get it, the NP3K is already in the cart so to speak, hence why not mentionned here as a choice. 

Two questions if you don’t mind: should I gather from your POV that the Kita has the more bite for kitchen edge despite being finer? And would you rather say it’s a very fine edge that still bites, or a biting edge that’s fine enough? 

Also, have anything to say about SW edge itself, since polishing capacities are not my first aim here?


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## KingShapton (Jan 16, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> the NP3K is already in the cart so to speak


The number of your stones seems to be growing fast ... are you counting?


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## dafox (Jan 16, 2021)

I didnt mention the Chosera 3000 because I thought you were looking at 6k or greater, an edge beyond the usual 3-4k for everyday good quality kitchen knives.

I can't comment on the SW as I sold it without even using it. The Kitayama is only being used to slice fish with a yanagiba, so not paying attention to bite.


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## ModRQC (Jan 16, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> The number of your stones seems to be growing fast ... are you counting?



It will make 17. Then there’s a special place for a SP220 one of the Shapton Glass or two and so. But I won’t accumulate. Goal is to make a choice as to the ones that suit me best for all situations and sell the rest. Simplify this too. Just like knives... took about 25 of them before I could finally be sure enough of my preferences and reduce the numbers without regrets.


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## demirtasem (Jan 16, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Goal is to make a choice as to the ones that suit me best for all situations and sell the rest. Simplify this too. Just like knives...



Please share your experience. Happy to read.


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## inferno (Jan 16, 2021)

what grit and for what steel?

i've found most ss lose bite after 4k or so.
carbons lose bite after 6-8k or so.

i like the gray glass 6k and pro 8k. but those are rock hard stones that dont slurry. 
cerax 8k is really nice. good for kasumi too. but it takes forever to dry. 

my new favorite high grit stone is the bester/imanishi 10k. it feels really nice and creamy, very good finish for monos, not so good for clad (low contrast). it releases a bit of abrasive. dries in a few h. i like the edges but i dont know if they're really that bitey. its more of a polisher i guess. i think its a resinoid.


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## ModRQC (Jan 16, 2021)

inferno said:


> what grit and for what steel?
> 
> i've found most ss lose bite after 4k or so.
> carbons lose bite after 6-8k or so.
> ...



Interesting that you bring up steel this way, thanks! Gives me another perspective. Have you tried the Kitayama?


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## zizirex (Jan 16, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Heya guys!
> 
> Arashiyama, Kitayama, Morihei Hi 6K, Morihei Karasu 9K...
> 
> ...


Morihei 6K. Done.

Please close the thread already.

PS. I have 3 of them and have try the edge from all of them


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## 4wa1l (Jan 16, 2021)

I've got a very nice edge using the Kitayama straight from a chosera 800 on AS steel but I think this probably isn't as refined as you want. Surely there has to be some coarser teeth remaining using this combo. Still a great useable edge though.

@zizirex I'm also interested in the Morihei 6K. What makes it so good?


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## zizirex (Jan 16, 2021)

4wa1l said:


> I've got a very nice edge using the Kitayama straight from a chosera 800 on AS steel but I think this probably isn't as refined as you want. Surely there has to be some coarser teeth remaining using this combo. Still a great useable edge though.
> 
> @zizirex I'm also interested in the Morihei 6K. What makes it so good?


Nice contrast, brighter polish on core and darker hazy on cladding. Toothier edge compares to Arashiyama. Morihei Karasu is way too fine for most Knife (I have it for Razor and Chisel/Planes). Arashiyama is not bad, but Morihei is Arashiyama on Steroid, what Arashiyama can do, Morihei can do it the same and much faster.


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## ModRQC (Jan 16, 2021)

Well I tried the Konosuke out of SP5K. Got to say that for stainless that can support it it’s the end stone of my kit for finest possible edge I can give that still bites just enough. I’ll sharpen a carbon tonight and post back.


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## KingShapton (Jan 17, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Goal is to make a choice as to the ones that suit me best for all situations and sell the rest. Simplify this too.


But a bit of variety / selection is also nice ... 

One more thought - you seem to like the Shapton Pros up to 5K, have you ever thought about the Shapton Pro 8K?


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## inferno (Jan 17, 2021)

for me ss starts skidding on tomatos with the 6k. not so with the 4k glass. but i dont have the regular white 6k i have the gray one..

buuut with carbon and the 6k, there is 0 hesitation, then with the 8k it starts hesitating a bit, and then with the 12k its gone, 0 hesitation. it just slides right through everything.

i guess the 2 ends of the spectrum is "saw" and "lazer sword" (or cow sword if you like)
when i get to the 8k the saw teeth is so small so it starts losing bite, yet its not so polished and sharp so it simply splits everything like the 12k does. thats my interpretation of whats going on. to me it makes sense.

i still think the 8k pro is my best overall high grit stone. its fast, dries fast, clogs slowly for its grit. feels like a finer 2k basically. i actually like the name too. melon super  there is 0 polishing going on with this one though, it cuts.

sorry for going OT.


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## KingShapton (Jan 17, 2021)

inferno said:


> for me ss starts skidding on tomatos with the 6k. not so with the 4k glass.


Are you talking about the white 4k Glass or the gray one?




inferno said:


> then with the 12k its gone, 0 hesitation. it just slides right through everything.


Agree with the 12k.


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## MarcelNL (Jan 17, 2021)

That is also what I found with what little experience I have, I'm usually using the blue SP (1500 I believe), then the Koppa, and finish on the cream 12K SP and while the 1500 or Koppa alone are enough for everyday use the next step takes the edge further and IMO makes it last longer. (especially on the Hinoura Nakiri, think in white 2, which has quite high Hardness)


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## Kawa (Jan 17, 2021)

Interessting topic.
I'm always lurking and fantasizing about what stone to buy after my hightest gritt (5000 superstone). Since I joined this forum the undertstanding was talked into me that I dont need it for my kitchen knives.

I'm not a professional cook who depends on his knives performance. I'm simply a nerd who got a fetish for sharpening 

I'm feeling the same as @ModRQC about naturals stones. Too expensive for my hobby. I can afford, but wont afford to buy a lot of stones purely to test. Same goes for knives. Once in a while I convince myself i can buy something new for my hobby, just like the wife keeps buying shoes...


Happy to read along and might make a desission afterwards.



Without hijacking this topic, how does the superstone 5000 compare to the stones mentioned in the opening post? I keep reading the superstone series finishes higher then their number suggests and I also notice that the higher the gritt number, the more meaningless it becomes (an 8k stone by brand X might finish coarser then an 6k stone by brand Y)

I know inferno's experience with 10-15k stones is good aswell. For long I told myself 'dont do it', but also this starts tingling again.....


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## KingShapton (Jan 17, 2021)

And the next one is hooked ... history repeats itself ... the next man, the same story.

No offense, I was also one of the men in the exact same story.


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## Kawa (Jan 17, 2021)

I was hooked up many months ago.

Happy to be Dutch.
We, cheap bastards, can manage money. Ratio over emotion!

We classically go like, looking looking, asking, fitting -> not buying


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## KingShapton (Jan 17, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Without hijacking this topic, how does the superstone 5000 compare to the stones mentioned in the opening post? I keep reading the superstone series finishes higher then their number suggests and I also notice that the higher the gritt number, the more meaningless it becomes (an 8k stone by brand X might finish coarser then an 6k stone by brand Y)


If you like the Superstone 5000 and get along with it, then maybe a Superstone 8k or 10k would be worth a try ... at least the costs would remain manageable ..

By the way, the SS 5k leaves a significantly finer finish than 5k. From my point of view, more would be overkill for use in the kitchen .... but also a lot of fun ....


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## inferno (Jan 17, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> Are you talking about the white 4k Glass or the gray one?
> 
> 
> 
> Agree with the 12k.



i have the white 4k. my standard finisher for everything.


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## inferno (Jan 17, 2021)

i also have the 12k superstone. its a polisher. probably my best mirror polisher. quite slow for its grit. clogs easy, rock hard. splash and go. very shiny results. almost true mirror.


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## Benuser (Jan 17, 2021)

The Snow-white offers both bite and refinement. Ever tried Arkansas? Have a hard one who offers a terrific bite. Followed by a hard black one to remove the last burr remnants. I use them — very old school — with saliva. No real polishers, though.


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## ModRQC (Jan 17, 2021)

zizirex said:


> Morihei 6K. Done.
> 
> Please close the thread already.
> 
> PS. I have 3 of them and have try the edge from all of them



What I'm worried about with the one, or the Arashiyama, is that SP5K is quite, quite fine. Most 4K-6K that are appreciated have an edge described as toothy. I won't do me much good to get a stone barely finer that SP5K that has a good amount of bite. Better refine on Rika if some more tooth is what I want.


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## ModRQC (Jan 17, 2021)

Benuser said:


> The Snow-white offers both bite and refinement. Ever tried Arkansas? Have a hard one who offers a terrific bite. Followed by a hard black one to remove the last burr remnants. I use them — very old school — with saliva. No real polishers, though.



If SW wasn't like twice the price of any other choice... I'd probably have chosen it already.


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## ModRQC (Jan 17, 2021)

inferno said:


> for me ss starts skidding on tomatos with the 6k. not so with the 4k glass. but i dont have the regular white 6k i have the gray one..
> 
> buuut with carbon and the 6k, there is 0 hesitation, then with the 8k it starts hesitating a bit, and then with the 12k its gone, 0 hesitation. it just slides right through everything.
> 
> ...



Ok so the Glass 8K is not a good choice, the Glass 12K is fine as hell yet still splits food... but you're recommending me the SP8K, not the SG12K, still...


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## inferno (Jan 17, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Ok so the Glass 8K is not a good choice, the Glass 12K is fine as hell yet still splits food... but you're recommending me the SP8K, not the SG12K, still...



no not really.

i recommend the glass 4k for stainless as the upper one for bite.
then the glass 6k gray for carbons (i guess the 6k white will work too it might even be better).

then we have a bit of nomans land, where you start losing bite but gaining "polish"/refinement, the 8k pro.

then we have the 12k pro that makes stuff so sharp so it doens't need any teeth. first knife i tested this on was a yoshikane skd11/d2 and it got so sharp i was a bit afraid of using it. and this goes in contrast to the common wisdom that "d2 is so coarse grained so it can only handle a 320 edge" bla bla bla..

so i guess i'm recomending the 4k glass, 6k glass, 8k pro, and 12k pro


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## ModRQC (Jan 17, 2021)

Couldn't you just step from 6K to 12K?

I think SP5000 can do what I want with stainless - Konosuke proof at hand, and a whole lot of others that went there. But SP2K also works very well with stainless, so I often would shortcut the SP5000 entirely.

One big reason I put it aside for a long while, and experienced once again last night when I went at it with the Shi.Han 52100, is that I never felt the SP5000 to do so good with carbons. Edge is very nice - but I've given it a more suiting one with the Rika before. Those things are still not so clear to me though - what stone works best with what kind of steel, and was it something that I've done, the stone, or the steel very specifically?.... 

My focus was get the knife sharp for most of my experience so far. Only lately am I comparing stones and edges related with steels.


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## inferno (Jan 17, 2021)

also with regards to the gray vs white glass.

i think they use the the same grit in both but the gray ones have like 25% "polishing agent" in there. so its slower, but it now polishes. 
there are small splotches of things in the gray stones that the whites dont have. it looks exactly like the naniwa superstones but i guess those are 50% polishing agent or so.


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## inferno (Jan 17, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Couldn't you just step from 6K to 12K?
> 
> I think SP5000 can do what I want with stainless - Konosuke proof at hand, and a whole lot of others that went there. But SP2K also works very well with stainless, so I often would shortcut the SP5000 entirely.
> 
> ...



i think the pros and glass seems to work pretty much the same on both carbon and ss. but the ss usually behaves different with the different grits.
basically you can take carbons up in grit more and they will respond good to that. it doesn't top out as fast as ss. usually you come to a point/grit where you feel it doesn't get sharper/better/whatever anymore, you're just wasting time. and this level is higher with carbons in general. imo.

one of my friends have the 5k pro. he doesn't like it. and therefore i guess i wont like it either, since we have similar taste in stones.

---------

you can jump from 1 or 2k to 12k if you want. no problem at all. it just takes another minute or 3.

but my stone philosophy is this: why have 1 when you can have 4


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## KingShapton (Jan 17, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Couldn't you just step from 6K to 12K?
> 
> I think SP5000 can do what I want with stainless - Konosuke proof at hand, and a whole lot of others that went there. But SP2K also works very well with stainless, so I often would shortcut the SP5000 entirely.


When we speak of the Shapton Pros, this series benefits from a strict progression. 1k (or 1.5k), 2k, 5k, 8k, 12k.

The Glass Stones allow larger jumps, for example # 500 to 3k, 2k to 6k, 2k to 8k or 16k.

I would like to emphasize again that I am only talking about my own experiences. With the Pro's I got the very best results with the "strict" progression.

I often read from others that they don't like the 5k and therefore jump directly from 2k to 8k. Of course this is possible, but when it comes to the best results with high grain sizes with the Shapton Pro's then, for me, the Shapton Pro 5k pivotal, as well as the strict progression.


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## inferno (Jan 17, 2021)

what do you think about the 6k white?


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## KingShapton (Jan 17, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Those things are still not so clear to me though - what stone works best with what kind of steel, and was it something that I've done, the stone, or the steel very specifically?....


This is one of the reasons for a larger selection of stones. Some stones go better with some steels than others. It's a matter of personal experience.


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## KingShapton (Jan 17, 2021)

inferno said:


> what do you think about the 6k white?


A very, very good stone!


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## KingShapton (Jan 17, 2021)

inferno said:


> also with regards to the gray vs white glass.
> 
> i think they use the the same grit in both but the gray ones have like 25% "polishing agent" in there. so its slower, but it now polishes.
> there are small splotches of things in the gray stones that the whites dont have. it looks exactly like the naniwa superstones but i guess those are 50% polishing agent or so.


That's an interesting observation. Maybe I'll try the Glass Gray 4k every now and then and compare it to the Glass White 4k and the Superstone 5k.


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## ModRQC (Jan 17, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> This is one of the reasons for a larger selection of stones. Some stones go better with some steels than others. It's a matter of personal experience.



Well I won’t reduce down to three you know. I think 10-12 since I can already say that I have 10-12 stones that I just wouldn’t sell. Hence all the tests I’m doing these days and wanting to expand my use of finer stones a bit before anything else - most of mine are coarse and meds, and a couple of these I know I don’t need.


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## ModRQC (Jan 17, 2021)

Prep with the Shi.Han tonight and it performed crazily well with the SP5K edge.

I understood my error when I judged the edge from cutting paper compared with the Konosuke and found it less fine.

The Kono has gone through a test where I had dulled it on the Rika’s side and sharpened it, then dulled it on the SP5K side and sharpened. The Kono had a pure SP5K edge, while the Shi.Han went through a progression involving the very toothy edge of the Ouka before getting to the SP5K. I hadn’t really think about that when comparing the edges, just thought the Shi.Han’s would have the finer edge being carbon.

Going to sharpen my Tanaka W#2 right now. Will dull it on the Rika, sharpen it, and finish it with the SP5K. Should result with a finer edge than the Shi.Han, possibly even the Kono now.


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## ModRQC (Jan 17, 2021)

Worked as expected, but even the Rika primary edge « pollutes » the polishing done on the SP5K. Konosuke still has the tad finer edge.


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## jwthaparc (Jan 18, 2021)

I skipped to the end. So I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned. But if you are on a budget, and are looking for a fine jnat. Koppas are your friend. 

I've gotten every jnat I have for around 100 dollars. Sometimes less sometimes more. One was a full sized medium stone. But for my finer stones I find koppas do just fine.


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## ModRQC (Jan 18, 2021)

Well the only ones I found that seem to gather some respect here and are within price range I find interesting is those two:









Morihei Amakusa Natural Stone Type 30


Brand: Morihei 森平 Product Type: Natural Stone Size: Type 30 Mine: Amakusa




www.aiandomknives.com













Morihei Bisui Natural Stone Type 30


Brand: Morihei 森平 Product Type: Natural Stone Size: Type 30 Mine: Bisui




www.aiandomknives.com





Sadly the vendor doesn't bother with telling the proximate grit range or any further details than the size. And I think the second one should read Binsui...

Another reason why I don't fret over Nats all that much - it's all a bit too much aleatory for me, and vendors rarely have information to make sense out of it.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Jan 18, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Well the only ones I found that seem to gather some respect here and are within price range I find interesting is those two:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These are coarse/med coarse stones, don't bother.

Bernal has Aiiwatani Koppas for <100 that should run 6k - 8k+

Edit: Jun Sei Honyama Koppa LV3 Hard LV3.5 Fine Honyama 783Grams 140x75x30mm

Here's one.


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## ModRQC (Jan 18, 2021)

Canada here... I could order with Bernal but will probably amount to pay more than I bargain for.

Anyways I've settled on just buying the NP3000 for now. It's the one that really draws me in. I'll buy me a Yoshi already instead of another fine stone.

Getting where I want for a really fine edge with using the SP5000 standalone. Not saying a higher grit wouldn't yield a finer edge still without removing the essential bite, but I don't see it in the choices I have at hand.

Perhaps jumping to SP8K and 12K as it was suggested - one day.


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## ModRQC (Jan 18, 2021)

Well at least I now have some experience with next before last knife shop I can find in Canada.

I still resist buying anything with Knifewear. 

Tosho had a nice price for the NP3000. And to just complete free shipping they had that perfect little add-on: felt deburring pad. In the end compared to any other NP3000 price around here, the deburring pad was free.

Edit: ah and one Yoshikane SKD on its way. @daveb will be happy.


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## zizirex (Jan 18, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Well at least I now have some experience with next before last knife shop I can find in Canada.
> 
> I still resist buying anything with Knifewear.
> 
> ...


another stone to consider is Nano Hone 3000, it really gives a nice contrast and a similar bite. splash and go and cheaper than NP 3000.


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## ModRQC (Jan 18, 2021)

Too late to save money now.


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## Kawa (Jan 19, 2021)

If the harm is already done, you might aswell buy them both, for the glory of scientific research!


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## KingShapton (Jan 19, 2021)

Is there anyone here who can compare the Nano Hone 3000 with the Shapton Glass 3000 and Shapton Glass 4000 from their own experience?


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## ModRQC (Jan 19, 2021)

Kawa said:


> If the harm is already done, you might aswell buy them both, for the glory of scientific research!



Research budget was ill-advisedly invested in a Yoshikane by the curator. Sorry.


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