# Shun Classic petty



## mark76 (Jan 22, 2016)

I like KAI a lot for their pocket knives. The Kershaw Blur is my EDC.

I am less fond of their Shun kitchen knives, at least the Classic line. These knives are made of VG10. I have sharpened a number of these knives and noticed that more than one of them had a tendency to chip when sharpened at angles that are pretty normal for Japanese knives (12-15 degrees). Some people like the Damascus cladding on these knives, but I find it makes them too busy.







Nevertheless, the Shun 9 cm petty is my favorite petty knife. It is very ergonomic. The handle feels very good in the hand, which is important because you hold it fully in your hand when peeling something. And I like its profile, which makes it useful for a variety of tasks.











There are also Shun petty knives with a sheepsfoot profile and a bird's beak profile, by the way.






The geometry is also good: the blade is convex and near the edge it even looks somewhat concave. So it is pretty thin behind the edge.

I havent noticed any chipping on this knife, but I never sharpen it lower than at 15 degrees. My petty isn't for hard use anyway.







*Factsheet*

Click on the factsheet to view a larger version.


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## mark76 (Jan 22, 2016)

Of course also on my blog, where you can read it nicely formatted, along with many other reviews: https://japaneseknifereviews.wordpress.com/


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## chinacats (Jan 22, 2016)

Nice review, curious what makes this a petty vs parer? Anyway, I find this to be a pretty classic shape. Do you like the handle shape?


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## Matus (Jan 22, 2016)

Mark, your reviews are very well organized. I appreciate that.

If I may add my experiencce with the 150mm version. The knife was a good cutter and the handle elegant and comfortable (and did not shring). I had basically 2 issues with the knife. One was chipping and it was quite pronouncedapplying microbevel helped a lot, but did not completely mmitigate the problem. The other was the lack of toughness to the blade. It would bend rather easily and stay bent even with mild force. Once I decided to put it flat on stones (to 'improve' the finish) I found out that the face of the blade was wavy and had to remedy that attempt with fine sanding paper  That weakend the damasccus pattern and actually looked nice at the end.

Even though not perfect - it was about the best knife available in normal shops in Germany ane we bought ours before their prices went up. The knife served us well for several years until I got snobbish and replaced it with Yoshikane SLD petty (which is of course in different league). If Shun would improve their HT of the VG-10 and make the cladding less soft, it would still be a very reasonable alternative.


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## daveb (Jan 22, 2016)

I've got the 150 petty or "utility" knife as well. My first J knife. Does well with in hand work. Silverskin machine. Not at its best on the board. No issues w chipping. 

Pens Tiger did a good review on several Shun a couple years ago - including this one. Don't have the Google-full to insert a link.


Thanks for the review Mark.


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## Jovidah (Jan 22, 2016)

I like the profile; at least the edge doesn't go straight into the handle or merge into a bolster like on most (a dislike I have for most paring knives while sharpening). But how does it compare in cutting performance to a cheap Herder?


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## mark76 (Jan 22, 2016)

Thanks, guys.



chinacats said:


> Nice review, curious what makes this a petty vs parer? Anyway, I find this to be a pretty classic shape. Do you like the handle shape?



Yeah, I like the handle shape a lot. The knife feels very well in-hand. 

English is not my first language and to be honest I'm a bit confused about the difference between a petty and a parer. A parer is usually a short knife (< 10 cm) and used a lot for peeling, as I understand it. A petty can (but not necessarily is) be longer up to the size of a small gyuto. In that sense this Shun knife would be both a petty and a parer. To confuse things even more we also have the utility knife (synonym of petty?) and, where I live, the office knife (used to refer to both petties and parers?). What do you guys think?



Matus said:


> If I may add my experiencce with the 150mm version. The knife was a good cutter and the handle elegant and comfortable (and did not shring). I had basically 2 issues with the knife. One was chipping and it was quite pronouncedapplying microbevel helped a lot, but did not completely mmitigate the problem. The other was the lack of toughness to the blade. It would bend rather easily and stay bent even with mild force.



If you like the shape of the knife - handle and blade profile - but not the (hardness of the) steel, the Zwilling miyabi might be an alternative (http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-zwilling-34372-091-miyabi-5000mcd-shotoh.htm). Its shape is very similar to the Shun, but the steel is apparently PM steel hardened up to 63 HRC.


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## Jovidah (Jan 23, 2016)

mark76 said:


> English is not my first language and to be honest I'm a bit confused about the difference between a petty and a parer. A parer is usually a short knife (< 10 cm) and used a lot for peeling, as I understand it. A petty can (but not necessarily is) be longer up to the size of a small gyuto. In that sense this Shun knife would be both a petty and a parer. To confuse things even more we also have the utility knife (synonym of petty?) and, where I live, the office knife (used to refer to both petties and parers?). What do you guys think?


This has long confused me as well... I'm no expert but this is what I came up with.

The word 'petty' is derived from the French word 'petit' (small) and tends to refer to essentially a scaled down gyuto or sujihiki (depending on blade height, but you can find both profiles). These usually range from 13-18 cm, but there's no strict definition (so some people call 10 cm knives a petty as well). I think the main difference with paring knives is that paring knives are mainly intended for in-hand work & peeling and not really for board work, while petty's are a bit of both. Most people find the extra length on a petty more difficult while peeling. Utility knives are the usual way to describe knives that fill the gap between 10-20 cm, although knives often sold under that name don't have the extra height a petty would have (they are usually 'lengthened' office knives, or like small serrated bread knives).

But it's becoming a bit of a mess as paring knives (often called office knives in our regions due to French influence) are starting to look more and more like mini-chef knives. Only exception is the sheepfoot blade like a Herder. But these days a lot of the paring knives are delivered with a lot of belly on them. By my knowledge there aren't really any traditional Japanese knives resembling European paring knives (I think they had other blades to do peeling and such), so most of these Japanese paring knives (like this Shun) are sort of cross-over attempts to cater to Western audiences. This might also explain why they are so much half-paring knife half-petty.


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## mark76 (Jan 23, 2016)

Thanks Joris. That sounds pretty reasonable and correct to me. It would be nice if someone whose first language is English could confirm this. Anyway, I now call the Shun knife a paring knife on my blog.

When I did research for my ideal paring knife I found exactly one "true" Japanese knife (i.e. excluding brands with cross-overs, like Shun, Tojiro and Global) with a wa handle and a blade profile of a paring knife. Unfortunately I forgot which one it was... (A wa handle does not seem ideal to me for in-hand work.) What do Japanese use for peeling?

And what's the French influence in office knives? My French is not terribly good, but I thought it meant "bureau".


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## Matus (Jan 23, 2016)

Mark, that is an interestingly looking small petty indeed - I like the design.

I have my own definition of petty and parer knives. In my view - the essential difference is that parer knives are used for in-hand cutting and thus usually have blades of up to some 10cm and the blade are relatively narrow. Ideally the parer does not have exposed heel since it points directly against one's thumb (and those heel are usually super sharp). Therefore I tend to call most small knives 'petty' (like the 80mm Kato). My ideal parer is the Blazen 110 in R2 (narrow and thin blade, no pointy heel and holds edge exceptionally well) - the best for in-hand work I manage to find. I use it a lot.

Jovidah - Herder knives (I have tried the K2 in stainless and carbon) are just too soft (basic stainless or carbon steel with not too high carbon content - about 0.7%) with not very well finished handles (the wood needs attention as soon as you buy it). They are exceptionally thin and easy to sharpen though and have often interesting designs (the K series in particular). I would still (out of curiosity) like to try their 1922 series and the B1 knife which has interesting design and higher carbon content, though the price a bit too much IMO. I would avoid their low end knives. I tested one in stainless and it was the most easy to bend knife I have ever had in hand. In short - the Shung Classic - even if I have some reservations - is in entirely different performance class than the Herder knives.

Mark, I hope I did not get too off-topic here. I am looking forward to your future reviews


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## mark76 (Jan 23, 2016)

On the contrary Matus, thanks! I have some more reviews in mind...  I enjoy your reviews a lot as well! And is this the Blazen knife you were referring to?: http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=85479

Joris, about cutting performance. I have been told that surgical scalpels are exceptionally thin and usually very badly ground. And very soft. This makes me think of the paring knives my girlfriend (yes, not me, let's get things straight  ) gets every so often at the supermarket (Appie) or household store (Blokker). If they're not terribly blunt, they cut quite well initially. But after a month already - just peeling - they start to loose their edge and after two months they're plain blunt. Which is not too bad, because they cost only 50 cents and are replaced right-away.

(And now we're in confession-mode: I accidentally took a cheap German/Austrian petty of the "Giessen" brand last summer from the chalet we rented in Austria. When we got back home I paid the landlord EUR 5 for the knife and didn't think about it anymore. Until the previous weekend. Apparently I had put it in the dishwasher just after our holiday. And I found it back, 6 months later, in the same dishwasher. Not a spot of rust. You can say a lot of negative things about these knives, but they are truely stainless! To honor this knife I sharpened it. I am curious how long it will last.)


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## Matus (Jan 23, 2016)

Hi Mark, yes, that is the Blazen I meant. It is also my only knife with that kind of bolster.


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## Jovidah (Jan 23, 2016)

mark76 said:


> And what's the French influence in office knives? My French is not terribly good, but I thought it meant "bureau".


I must admit I do not know why they are called office knives (couteau d'office) by the French. What I am saying is that the reason they (paring knives) are often referred to as 'office knives' in the Netherlands is simply because most of our culinary vocabulary is very much French-based. The exact same 'office-knives' are often called 'spickmesser' or 'schalmesser' in Germany. In Dutch you do sometimes see 'pareermes' (a pretty literal translation of paring knife...but why a paring knife is called a paring knife?).
Long story short... why a certain knife shape is called a certain way often has more to do with the social development of languages and anthropology than with any clear definition of knife categories. 

@Matus; I know the Herders are crap when it comes to F&F (I have some of the cheap carbons), but you have to admit they slice and peel exceedingly well. Even with a crap edge they still work simply because they're so thin. I only had the carbons so I can't talk about the stainless versions, but they always worked exceedingly well in my opinion; much better at the intended use than most more expensive paring knives I tried (although I never used 100 euro types like this). Even if you can bend it, so what? It still goes through everything (including tougher stuff like carrots) like a lightsabre scalpel. And they're only about 10 bucks... 
For a better F&F version there's still Opinel. Also about 7 or 8 bucks a piece, but not as thin as the Herder (so a bit stiffer). 

Not trying to stirr a fight here but I'm really wondering how they compare side to side in regard to cutting performance. I know F&F, looks and edge retention are a lot better on this one and other blades, but as I said; in pure cutting performance I still keep returning to the cheapo Herder and Opinel because nothing ever seems to catch up to them.


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## Jovidah (Jan 23, 2016)

You know... I'm half-inclined to just pack up all my cheapo paring knives and let you have your way with them just to get a good comparison. Get some kind of 'ultimate and final paringe knife overview' going...


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## daveb (Jan 23, 2016)

I think the paring / petty / utility difference is pretty simple. Shun especially, and other manufacturers as well, target housewives as their largest market. And housewives know what a paring knife is. They know a utility knife can mean a lot of things. No idea what a petty is. Hence the 100mm parers. And 150mm utility


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## mark76 (Jan 31, 2016)

I don't quite get it, Dave. Again, English is not my first language. Why don't housewives know what a petty knife is? Petty at least indicates the knife is fairly small. Utility could mean anything.


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## daveb (Jan 31, 2016)

It's just not a term used in the US market. Based on Euro knives (I think) we have paring knives, utility knives, Santoku (thanks to Rachael Ray) chef, slicer and bread knives. Even Shun does not offer a knife called a "petty" to US markets.

If you were to go into a kitchen store in the US and asked to see a petty or gyuto, chances are good that the sales staff would have no idea what you were talking about.


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## mark76 (Feb 1, 2016)

AH, so "petty" is a European (UK) term? Just like gyuto is a Japanese term? And apparently office knife a French term?


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## Matus (Feb 1, 2016)

Jovidah said:


> @Matus; I know the Herders are crap when it comes to F&F (I have some of the cheap carbons), but you have to admit they slice and peel exceedingly well. Even with a crap edge they still work simply because they're so thin. I only had the carbons so I can't talk about the stainless versions, but they always worked exceedingly well in my opinion; much better at the intended use than most more expensive paring knives I tried (although I never used 100 euro types like this). Even if you can bend it, so what? It still goes through everything (including tougher stuff like carrots) like a lightsabre scalpel. And they're only about 10 bucks...
> For a better F&F version there's still Opinel. Also about 7 or 8 bucks a piece, but not as thin as the Herder (so a bit stiffer).



You do have a point about the thinness of Herder knives - they do cut well even if the edge does not hold sharp all too long. A pity actually - with a bit better steel and HT these could be some great knives. I personally do not like knives that are too bendy - it takes away the feel of precision (in particular when working with a tip on a longer knife). Maybe I will give them a chance again some day.


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## Castalia (Feb 1, 2016)

Petty is a Japanicized version of the French word for small- petit. It is a Japanese word with a foreign origin which has now passed back into knife jargon. Japanese has several loan words from Portuguese, German, French, and English that were assimilated into the language in the late 19th and early 20th century. Words like 'pan' for bread from the French 'pain' are not uncommon. 

Sebiru as an 'old fashioned' Japanese word for suit is an interesting one. It comes from the Japanicization of Saville (Row).

These are examples of gairaigo.


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## Castalia (Feb 1, 2016)

An everyday English speaker would have no idea what a "petty knife" is. It is a Japanese knife term that has come back into our Japanese knife aficionado use. In a professional Japanese kitchen a single bevel mukimono would be used for peeling. All these distinctions in terminology would be lost on a typical home kitchen knife user in the USA, Japan or Europe.


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## Jovidah (Feb 3, 2016)

mark76 said:


> Joris, about cutting performance. I have been told that surgical scalpels are exceptionally thin and usually very badly ground. And very soft. This makes me think of the paring knives my girlfriend (yes, not me, let's get things straight  ) gets every so often at the supermarket (Appie) or household store (Blokker). If they're not terribly blunt, they cut quite well initially. But after a month already - just peeling - they start to loose their edge and after two months they're plain blunt. Which is not too bad, because they cost only 50 cents and are replaced right-away.



To be fair though, there's a pretty big difference between the cheapo Herders and the 2 dollar knock-offs. Admittedly, though extremely thin they don't come with the best of edges, and the stainless Herders aren't spectacular when it comes to the steel... But when you get a carbon one and actually sharpen it it's surprisingly awesome. 




Matus said:


> You do have a point about the thinness of Herder knives - they do cut well even if the edge does not hold sharp all too long. A pity actually - with a bit better steel and HT these could be some great knives. I personally do not like knives that are too bendy - it takes away the feel of precision (in particular when working with a tip on a longer knife). Maybe I will give them a chance again some day.



I can understand how you dislike it being a bit bendy, but it never bothered me in a pairing knife (might actually make peeling easier, though I usually do that with a speed-peeler). But it's probably why they're not making gyuto's out of it...
Isn't the K1 supposed to be the 'better HT & edge retention version'? Or is that still a bit dissapointing?

By the way, sorry for the hijack... It's just that I was honestly wondering how it'd size up to German standard in pairing knives.


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## wrobelan (Feb 7, 2016)

daveb said:


> It's just not a term used in the US market. Based on Euro knives (I think) we have paring knives, utility knives, Santoku (thanks to Rachael Ray) chef, slicer and bread knives. Even Shun does not offer a knife called a "petty" to US markets.
> 
> If you were to go into a kitchen store in the US and asked to see a petty or gyuto, chances are good that the sales staff would have no idea what you were talking about.





mark76 said:


> AH, so "petty" is a European (UK) term? Just like gyuto is a Japanese term? And apparently office knife a French term?



First this was a great review. Thanks for you insights and very specific specs/detail. 

The chipping on the shun vg-10 has been noted on every site where the brand is mentioned, and this is, as so many have mentioned here, most often the result of bad HT and/or terrible handling by consumers. 

That being said, I don't notice the chipping issue on Shun's solid vg-10 (edo line in my case) or on the vg-max blades that are now on the classic and premier line. These knives have held up very well for me after more than a year of 5-6 day a week use (1-3 hours each use). It seems like they heard the complaints and are actually trying to remedy the situation. 

Finally, I think Shun might be trying to get into the knife fight with the big boys so venerated here (shig, konosuke etc) because their blue line, at least at WS, lists the 5.5 inch knife as a petty while the 6 inch is the utility or butchers knife. 

Obviously the people here, perhaps rightly so, would say they don't hold a candle to the favorites here, but for the limited use they see in my house, they are cheap and reliable enough for me to keep buying them. 

Thanks again for the review and all notes given here. I've really enjoyed all of the observations this forum offers.


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## Rayuela (Feb 10, 2016)

The "office" is a little room that buts onto the kitchen in a grand house. So a couteau d'office is originally the knife used by some kitchen dogsbody, probably to prep vegetables.


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## Castalia (Feb 10, 2016)

England and America are two countries separated by a common language.
--George Bernard Shaw


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## CutFingers (May 3, 2016)

They are neat little knives, but the edge is chippy and thin...it works great for silver skin but you've got to watch out for bones, when detailing around poultry and such. With care it's a nice little utility knife and good for tomatoes.


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