# Jck Kagayaki r2 series



## labor of love (Feb 3, 2019)

Hey guys, I’m pretty set on picking up a takamura and blazen real soon however I noticed this Kagayaki r2 series at JCK
https://japanesechefsknife.com/collections/kagayaki-r-2-damascus-series
Anybody have experience with any of these knives? The handles look nice. I’m stuck trying to figure out which petty id like the most between a Kagayaki, taka Pro and blazen.
Any feedback on this JCK would be welcomed. Thanks.


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## labor of love (Feb 4, 2019)

No Kagayaki R2 users here?


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## panda (Feb 4, 2019)

You're going to hate that steel


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## Benuser (Feb 4, 2019)

Nothing wrong with the steel. The Ryusen Blazen is one of the best stainless I've ever used. But I would in no case buy a Damascus blade.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 4, 2019)

panda said:


> You're going to hate that steel



Curious about this. What do you mean? Anything specific about R2?


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## Cyrilix (Feb 4, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Nothing wrong with the steel. The Ryusen Blazen is one of the best stainless I've ever used. But I would in no case buy a Damascus blade.


Because of the extra cost?


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## Elliot (Feb 4, 2019)

I like R2, for what it's worth.
A lot of Koki's OEM stuff is made by Sukenari, but I cannot say for sure if this line is, of course.


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## Viggetorr (Feb 4, 2019)

If you value edge retention and don't mind the steel being a little hard to sharpen you'll love a well heat treated R2-knife, in my experience.


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## labor of love (Feb 4, 2019)

egolan said:


> I like R2, for what it's worth.
> A lot of Koki's OEM stuff is made by Sukenari, but I cannot say for sure if this line is, of course.


Pretty sure this line isn’t sukenari.


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## labor of love (Feb 4, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Nothing wrong with the steel. The Ryusen Blazen is one of the best stainless I've ever used. But I would in no case buy a Damascus blade.


Well I was looking at the takamura pro petty initially then these Kagayakis caught my attention. It hard for me to notice much difference in handles and bolster although there must be some. I’m not even sure if I want a smaller or bigger western handle for a petty.
Thoughts?


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## labor of love (Feb 4, 2019)

Viggetorr said:


> If you value edge retention and don't mind the steel being a little hard to sharpen you'll love a well heat treated R2-knife, in my experience.


All these years and I’ve never owned an r2. But a do have a red handled taka on the way.


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## Benuser (Feb 4, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Because of the extra cost?


About Damascus: looking great to some, but not after a few months of use. 
Doesn't contribute in any way to the knife's performance. Rather the opposite: most Damascus blades are remarkably thick behind the edge.
Makes good sharpening, which should include thinning, most problematic. You have to rework the entire face on both sides, with a progression of sandpaper. After that, re-etching with some highly corrosive substance. Sending out and having it done? OK, but not twice a year.
No Damascus for me.


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## labor of love (Feb 4, 2019)

I wouldn’t disparage all Damascus because some of the cheaper ones come with less quality grinds. The nicer stuff is what I’m looking at. I’m kinda indifferent to Damascus, infact I’ve spent years clowning much of it. But to tell you the truth, in person good Damascus looks good! (Takamura uchi, Yoshikane, etc)


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## labor of love (Feb 4, 2019)

Pretty much set on a takamura pro petty now. Thanks for the insight.


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## panda (Feb 4, 2019)

Shoulda just got a Marko a2 lol


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## labor of love (Feb 4, 2019)

Nah, I want full stainless for petty.


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## dafox (Feb 4, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Pretty much set on a takamura pro petty now. Thanks for the insight.


Why do you want that over the Ryusen Blazen?


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## Casaluz (Feb 4, 2019)

Hi Labor, this is not the line you are asking about, however, among the first Jknives I have had aree a JCK Kagayaky petty and a JCK Kagayaki Inazuna gyuto, and I have been happy with their balance between edge retention and toughness for a variety of tasks. They are not as easy to sharpen as the carbon steels but they are decent knives. I am curious why someone like you would be interested in the Kagayakis which to me seem to be in the lower half of qualty knives when compared to other choices that I guess you are familiar with... Am I missing something or is my lack of knowledge on this area blocking me from realizing something that should be more clear?


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## Cyrilix (Feb 4, 2019)

dafox said:


> Why do you want that over the Ryusen Blazen?



What do you like about the Blazen over the Takamura Pro?


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## labor of love (Feb 4, 2019)

Casaluz said:


> Hi Labor, this is not the line you are asking about, however, among the first Jknives I have had aree a JCK Kagayaky petty and a JCK Kagayaki Inazuna gyuto, and I have been happy with their balance between edge retention and toughness for a variety of tasks. They are not as easy to sharpen as the carbon steels but they are decent knives. I am curious why someone like you would be interested in the Kagayakis which to me seem to be in the lower half of qualty knives when compared to other choices that I guess you are familiar with... Am I missing something or is my lack of knowledge on this area blocking me from realizing something that should be more clear?


You should read up on these knives. I’m particularly interested in the forged Damascus line. Though these are under a jck house brand theyre not entry level. They sound quite nice and might be on the same level as takamura and blazen. Atleast, that’s what I’m trying to figure out.


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## Casaluz (Feb 4, 2019)

Very well, thank you for the suggestion Labor, I will look into it


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## GorillaGrunt (Feb 4, 2019)

I just got a Takamura Pro gyuto, they’ve been kind of hard to find lately. I wanted to compare to a red handle Takamura but I’m not even sure that’s necessary - this thing really wowed me. I’ll eventually have to try a Blazen though.


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## dafox (Feb 5, 2019)

GorillaGrunt said:


> I just got a Takamura Pro gyuto, they’ve been kind of hard to find lately. I wanted to compare to a red handle Takamura but I’m not even sure that’s necessary - this thing really wowed me. I’ll eventually have to try a Blazen though.


Please let us know how they compare. Is the heel height on the Takamura HSPS lower than on the Ryusen Blazen?


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## GorillaGrunt (Feb 5, 2019)

I don’t have the Blazen yet and the Takamura is at work, but I’ll measure the height when I have a chance.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 5, 2019)

would love to see those specs (and maybe a choil shot) of either a blazen or takamura pro.


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## labor of love (Feb 5, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> would love to see those specs (and maybe a choil shot) of either a blazen or takamura pro.


Lucasfur was nice enough to take some comparison pics of the takamura uchi and blazen side side for me. I could be mistaken, but after reading some info on the MTC kitchen page I think the taka Pro and uchi are the same knife besides the Damascus.
Wanna check the pics out?


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## Cyrilix (Feb 5, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Lucasfur was nice enough to take some comparison pics of the takamura uchi and blazen side side for me. I could be mistaken, but after reading some info on the MTC kitchen page I think the taka Pro and uchi are the same knife besides the Damascus.
> Wanna check the pics out?



Everything I've read indicates that this is true, and that the Hana is also the same except with a different handle.

Don't care about Damascus? Get Pro.
Otherwise, want a Wa octagonal hybrid ferrule? Get Hana.
Otherwise, want a regular western handle? Get Uchigumo.

Not sure why the Uchigumo is the most expensive though.


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## labor of love (Feb 6, 2019)

Pulled the trigger on Takamura PRO petty. Thanks for the help. I’m kinda out of my element here, this is my first PM knife.


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## dafox (Feb 6, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Pulled the trigger on Takamura PRO petty. Thanks for the help. I’m kinda out of my element here, this is my first PM knife.


Let us know what you think of it!


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## GorillaGrunt (Feb 7, 2019)

Takamura Pro gyuto is 43mm at heel, 3.2mm above heel, 1.8mm at midpoint, 0.6mm 1cm from tip. 

@labor can you post pics of the petty? I had the red handle one and I’d be interested in seeing if the relationship is similar.


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## Benuser (Feb 7, 2019)

@labor of love, please let us know, after sharpening and some use, how R2/SG2 works for you. Have read very different observations from all very serious members, especially about edge stability.


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## dafox (Feb 7, 2019)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Takamura Pro gyuto is 43mm at heel, 3.2mm above heel, 1.8mm at midpoint, 0.6mm 1cm from tip.
> 
> @labor can you post pics of the petty? I had the red handle one and I’d be interested in seeing if the relationship is similar.
> 
> ...


Thank you, is that a 210?


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## labor of love (Feb 7, 2019)

Benuser said:


> @labor of love, please let us know, after sharpening and some use, how R2/SG2 works for you. Have read very different observations from all very serious members, especially about edge stability.


It’s funny, some people say it sharpens easy, while others disagree. I guess it’s relative to what R2 knives are being compared too.


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## labor of love (Feb 7, 2019)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Takamura Pro gyuto is 43mm at heel, 3.2mm above heel, 1.8mm at midpoint, 0.6mm 1cm from tip.
> 
> @labor can you post pics of the petty? I had the red handle one and I’d be interested in seeing if the relationship is similar.
> 
> ...


Yeah, infact I just received a takamura red handle 180mm gyuto, I can do comparison pics w Takamura PRO 150mm petty when it arrives on Monday.
I expect them to be very different. MTC kitchen explains the difference on their website.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 7, 2019)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Takamura Pro gyuto is 43mm at heel, 3.2mm above heel, 1.8mm at midpoint, 0.6mm 1cm from tip.
> 
> @labor can you post pics of the petty? I had the red handle one and I’d be interested in seeing if the relationship is similar.
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting this info 

...it seems like a good taper? Some other people were remarking about the board-feel of r2 not being all that great in the laser profiles, I'd be curious to hear about in the more mid-weight grinds (once ya'll get a chance to use them more). Also, any chance if to get a profile shot would also be great...


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## labor of love (Feb 7, 2019)

Yeah in general feedback about takamura usually is with regards to the red handled line which seem to be lasers. I expect the pro and uchi to be quite thicker blades with more detailed grinds and taper.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 7, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Yeah in general feedback about takamura usually is with regards to the red handled line which seem to be lasers. I expect the pro and uchi to be quite thicker blades with more detailed grinds and taper.


How does this board define laser?
* No thicker than 2.5mm at spine above heel
* No thicker than 0.8mm 1cm above edge at the heel.

That could be a good start.


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## labor of love (Feb 7, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> How does this board define laser?
> * No thicker than 2.5mm at spine above heel
> * No thicker than 0.8mm 1cm above edge at the heel.
> 
> That could be a good start.


Right, well we refer to konosuke mono, ginga, sakai Yusuke as lasers. They have thin spines, thin blades, thin edges. Usually other knifes may only have thin edges, or thin blades and thin edges.
But takamura red handle does have a thin spine, blade and edge.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 7, 2019)

IMHO...laser means it cuts like a laser...that is all

most knives get there by cheating (using near flat grinds and thin spines)
which comes with negative performance issues like flex and food stiction.

but you can have a "laser class" cutter with altigether diffrernt construction,
like the front half of a masamot KS...just one example


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## HRC_64 (Feb 7, 2019)

...But as shorthand, I agree with Labour, Ashi ginga, HD, Tadatsuna, Suisin IH, etc
are the pantheon of "laser" knives prototypes...


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## Cyrilix (Feb 7, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Right, well we refer to konosuke mono, ginga, sakai Yusuke as lasers. They have thin spines, thin blades, thin edges. Usually other knifes may only have thin edges, or thin blades and thin edges.
> But takamura red handle does have a thin spine, blade and edge.



By thin edge, you mean 1cm above the edge? That tends to be the canonical measurement. By thin blade, my guess is it means halfway up the spine. And obviously spine is spine. I think if we quantify these and put them under classifications, things will make more sense to more people. We talk about lasers and midweight, but if I take a new knife and would like to know how it's classified, a guideline would be nice.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 7, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> IMHO...laser means it cuts like a laser...that is all
> 
> most knives get there by cheating (using near flat grinds and thin spines)
> which comes with negative performance issues like flex and food stiction.
> ...


I mean with respect to cheating, that's fair but unless you're very very careful with your sharpening, your edge is not going to look like the stock edge after several sharpens. The blade geometry will change, so even if you did something amazing with the edge ootb, good chance yoully lose it later.


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## labor of love (Feb 7, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> By thin edge, you mean 1cm above the edge? That tends to be the canonical measurement. By thin blade, my guess is it means halfway up the spine. And obviously spine is spine. I think if we quantify these and put them under classifications, things will make more sense to more people. We talk about lasers and midweight, but if I take a new knife and would like to know how it's classified, a guideline would be nice.


All I was trying to say was that takamura red handle was a thin blade overall kinda like Sakai lasers are. You backed me into a corner here haha. I can’t really tell you offhand which measurements denotes lasers it’s really not my place. 
Takamura red handle grind is different though, due to the manufacturing process being different.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 7, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Yeah in general feedback about takamura usually is with regards to the red handled line which seem to be lasers. I expect the pro and uchi to be quite thicker blades with more detailed grinds and taper.



I actually should have a Takamura Hana 210mm on the way, assuming the order was placed correctly. I imagine it'll be very similar to your hsps pro.


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## labor of love (Feb 7, 2019)

For instance, I just used takamura red handle this morning for the first time ever to cook breakfast. My immediate first impression was “oh wow this moves through food like a laser!”


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## Cyrilix (Feb 7, 2019)

labor of love said:


> All I was trying to say was that takamura red handle was a thin blade overall kinda like Sakai lasers are. You backed me into a corner here haha. I can’t really tell you offhand which measurements denotes lasers it’s really not my place.
> Takamura red handle grind is different though, due to the manufacturing process being different.



Don't mean to back you in a corner. 
Just want to see more objectivity in the discussions here! I'm an engineer by profession so I like to analyze.


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## Nemo (Feb 7, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Don't mean to back you in a corner. [emoji14]
> Just want to see more objectivity in the discussions here! I'm an engineer by profession so I like to analyze.


My impression is that "laser" denotes a type of performance in food rather than a particular set of measurements. As such, I've never seen an agreed upon set of dimensional definitions.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 7, 2019)

Nemo said:


> My impression is that "laser" denotes a type of performance in food rather than a particular set of measurements. As such, I've never seen an agreed upon set of dimensional definitions.



A knife's performance is strictly about its geometry and weight. If I make a clone of a great performing knife, then it will perform equally great, assuming I can get the weight distributed the same way. That's why I believe the measurements are important.

Where more expensive and better crafted knives come into play is through their ability to maintain or even be stable under the desired geometry. Even if the geometry is perfect, if the heat treat sucks and I can match the geometry but it chips on any kind of use, then that's a knock on its performance. Insofar as the edge is stable and I can clone the geometry, my performance is guaranteed.

What I'm really trying to say is... if your definition of a laser is "performs like a laser", there are measurable parameters that will quantify "performs like a laser", in which case I would love to know those parameters.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 7, 2019)

Nemo said:


> My impression is that "laser" denotes a type of performance in food rather than a particular set of measurements. As such, I've never seen an agreed upon set of dimensional definitions.



yep... the laser metaphor means there is little feeling of resistance and little disturbance of the product...you cannot omit that the relation of the product to the knife is relevant, where it cuts...relative heights etc. So cannot reduce to single point of measurement what is a laser, especially so low to edge like 10mm


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## Cyrilix (Feb 7, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> yep... the laser metaphor means there is little feeling of resistance and little disturbance of the product...you cannot omit that the relation of the product to the knife is relevant, where it cuts...relative heights etc. So cannot reduce to single point of measurement what is a laser, especially so low to edge like 10mm



For sure it can't be one measurement, but 3 can probably summarize 90% of its performance parameters. @labor of love, sorry, I'm derailing this thread.

My final comment on lasers is that I also appreciate if you would take some measurements for me and I'll do the same when I get my Hana.


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## GorillaGrunt (Feb 8, 2019)

I always thought of the lasers as the thin, light blades, and I’d include Takamura red handle and Shibata. The Taka Pro gets as thin as the red halfway along the length, but cuts like a laser (i.e. planks of squash, carrots, etc. without any splitting at all) even with the thicker part, which I’d attribute to grind/cross sectional geometry.


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## kevpenbanc (Feb 8, 2019)

I have a 210 hana and red handle.
The hana is a stunning cutter. 
I've never really bonded with the red handle, and for me the hana is the better cutter. It's a nice knife, and really good value for the money, but for me it's not in the same class. I actually have a bit of trouble thinking of it as a laser, at least compared to the hana and a tad I have.
Guess I'm going to have to spend a bit of time comparing them a bit mirs exhaustively.


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## kevpenbanc (Feb 8, 2019)

Benuser said:


> About Damascus: looking great to some, but not after a few months of use.
> Doesn't contribute in any way to the knife's performance. Rather the opposite: most Damascus blades are remarkably thick behind the edge.
> Makes good sharpening, which should include thinning, most problematic. You have to rework the entire face on both sides, with a progression of sandpaper. After that, re-etching with some highly corrosive substance. Sending out and having it done? OK, but not twice a year.
> No Damascus for me.



Interesting views and experiences.
Three of the thinnest and best cutting knives I have are damascus (Tanaka R2, Takamura Hana and Masashi Kobo SLD).
I also have a fair few dammy blades with 3-4 years of use which still look really good. Some are all but showroom condition. One of my dammy petties has been abused horribly as I learnt and experimented in sharpening. It doesn't look too bad to be honest. I do have one with a noticeable scratch or two from my very early days of sharpening.
As to etching, I guess it depends upon the knife. I have some R2 dammy blades which would benefit a bit from an etch, but then I've got a heavily abused, and thinned, Tanaka B2 dammy that doesn't need it. It just needs time for a patina.
I'm fairly relaxed about my knives, they are to be used, but I've never had bad experiences with my dammy blades.


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## Benuser (Feb 9, 2019)

kevpenbanc said:


> Interesting views and experiences.
> Three of the thinnest and best cutting knives I have are damascus (Tanaka R2, Takamura Hana and Masashi Kobo SLD).
> I also have a fair few dammy blades with 3-4 years of use which still look really good. Some are all but showroom condition. One of my dammy petties has been abused horribly as I learnt and experimented in sharpening. It doesn't look too bad to be honest. I do have one with a noticeable scratch or two from my very early days of sharpening.
> As to etching, I guess it depends upon the knife. I have some R2 dammy blades which would benefit a bit from an etch, but then I've got a heavily abused, and thinned, Tanaka B2 dammy that doesn't need it. It just needs time for a patina.
> I'm fairly relaxed about my knives, they are to be used, but I've never had bad experiences with my dammy blades.


All will depend on how you sharpen. If you don't only sharpen the very edge — as when touching up — and start behind the bevel, you will change the finish up to 0.5-1cm (3/16-3/8") behind the very edge. The alternative is accepting a progressive thickening behind the edge after a few sharpenings and the corresponding performance loss.


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## Ruso (Feb 9, 2019)

My wife loves Takamura R2 red handle. I think its a great “starter” knife. Not hard to sharpen either, not a simple carbon but not hard.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 9, 2019)

Ruso said:


> My wife loves Takamura R2 red handle. I think its a great “starter” knife. Not hard to sharpen either, not a simple carbon but not hard.


I think many would be glad to have that as a finisher knife.


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## kevpenbanc (Feb 9, 2019)

Benuser said:


> All will depend on how you sharpen. If you don't only sharpen the very edge — as when touching up — and start behind the bevel, you will change the finish up to 0.5-1cm (3/16-3/8") behind the very edge. The alternative is accepting a progressive thickening behind the edge after a few sharpenings and the corresponding performance loss.



And that depends on the original geometry of the blade and/or how frequently it gets sharpened.

The Takamura Hana has got sharpened a fair bit, but the blade is so thin tbat it hasn't needed thinning yet. Not to a noticeable degree any way, and I generally sharpen ~10 degrees. At that angle I'm not hitting any serious steel, yet, and performance is not noticeably impacted.
The Tanaka B2, yes, that's being thinned on each sharpening, but that doesn't require etching to maintain appearances.
There's damascus, and then there's damascus.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 9, 2019)

kevpenbanc said:


> And that depends on the original geometry of the blade and/or how frequently it gets sharpened.
> 
> The Takamura Hana has got sharpened a fair bit, but the blade is so thin tbat it hasn't needed thinning yet. Not to a noticeable degree any way, and I generally sharpen ~10 degrees. At that angle I'm not hitting any serious steel, yet, and performance is not noticeably impacted.
> The Tanaka B2, yes, that's being thinned on each sharpening, but that doesn't require etching to maintain appearances.
> There's damascus, and then there's damascus.



Is it possible that the Hana may have a stable edge at even 8 degrees per side? I'd be curious as to how acute the edge is supposed to be ootb.


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## Benuser (Feb 9, 2019)

An OOTB edge isn't necessarily to be used as such. Often it's just meant to make sharpening by the end user much easier.


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## kevpenbanc (Feb 9, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Is it possible that the Hana may have a stable edge at even 8 degrees per side? I'd be curious as to how acute the edge is supposed to be ootb.



My statement of ~10 degrees was a rough estimate. 
In my early days sharpness equaled acutness of sharpening angle, so everything was sharpened very acutely.
The edge on the hana was very stable. It got a lot of use and held its edge significantly longer than w2, b2 or as. It was also very, very sharp, at least to me.
I don't honestly know what it's edge was out of the box, I tended to ignore that and put my own edge on anyway, at least when it needed a sharpening .


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## Cyrilix (Feb 9, 2019)

Benuser said:


> An OOTB edge isn't necessarily to be used as such. Often it's just meant to make sharpening by the end user much easier.



Is that necessarily the case with all knives? What would make an OOTB edge unusable if it has been sharpened?


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## HRC_64 (Feb 9, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Is that necessarily the case with all knives? What would make an OOTB edge unusable if it has been sharpened?



the knife is designed to be sharpend 100s of times in its lifetime, each done to the end user spec
no point getting hung up on the first sharpening from the factory...

(unless it gets substantially in the way of finishing the edge without undue hassle)


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## Benuser (Feb 9, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Is that necessarily the case with all knives? What would make an OOTB edge unusable if it has been sharpened?


You might see edges that won't hold, and chipping as a result. No big deal, perhaps.
But an OOTB edge shouldn't be the object of some kind of veneration, either.


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## dafox (Feb 9, 2019)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Takamura Pro gyuto is 43mm at heel, 3.2mm above heel, 1.8mm at midpoint, 0.6mm 1cm from tip.
> 
> @labor can you post pics of the petty? I had the red handle one and I’d be interested in seeing if the relationship is similar.
> 
> ...


Thank you, just what I wanted to see!


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## Benuser (Feb 10, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Is it possible that the Hana may have a stable edge at even 8 degrees per side? I'd be curious as to how acute the edge is supposed to be ootb.


Never seen any edge holding with normal board work at less than 20 degrees inclusive.
Better keep as thin as possible behind the edge, and let the very edge be rather conservative. Performance won't suffer and retention will greatly benefit.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 10, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Never seen any edge holding with normal board work at less than 20 degrees inclusive.
> Better keep as thin as possible behind the edge, and let the very edge be rather conservative. Performance won't suffer and retention will greatly benefit.


You're basically saying microbevel, if I'm not mistaken.


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## Benuser (Feb 10, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> You're basically saying microbevel, if I'm not mistaken.


No, a micro-bevel is really different. What I suggest, is making a relief at the lowest possible angle, and adding a final edge, through the entire progression, of some 30 to 35 degrees inclusive.
A micro-bevel is cut in the existing bevel with a fine stone at a very high angle, mostly one-sided, while respecting the overall geometry of the edge. A very different notion, if you don't mind.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 10, 2019)

Benuser said:


> No, a micro-bevel is really different. What I suggest, is making a relief at the lowest possible angle, and adding a final edge, through the entire progression, of some 30 to 35 degrees inclusive.
> A micro-bevel is cut in the existing bevel with a fine stone at a very high angle, mostly one-sided, while respecting the overall geometry of the edge. A very different notion, if you don't mind.



Basically what you're saying is basically a two sided larger than microbevel bevel. The reason why a microbevel is not supposed to impact performance is because it's so small that you retain thinness behind the edge.

That said, the secondary bevel (not counting the microbevel) would be the one where I'm looking to go 8-10 degrees per side, with the one sided microbevel raising it to about 15 degrees. Primary bevel would depend on what kind of geometry is needed to reach the spine and would have variations for convexity, but it should be anywhere from 0-8 degrees.

In your case, your secondary relief bevel is 15-18 degrees, followed by a primary bevel of how many degrees. I assume when you say the lowest angle possible, you're probably aiming in the 4-6 degree range and you essentially keep it that way all the way up pretty far?


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## Benuser (Feb 10, 2019)

Take care with the notions of primary and secundary bevel. In different fora they are used ... differently. 
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/primary-secondary-bevel-discrepancy.2231/
That’s why I spoke of a relief bevel, i.e. the thinned part behind the bevels. 
I want the right, dominant bevel to follow the face's convexity. Most knives I use or sharpen have the the edge off-centered to the left, as a result of which the left bevel will be small. Even smaller if I raise the left angle to balance friction on both sides in order to limit steering. The convex, right bevel will end at some 12 degrees, the tiny, straight left bevel will be cut around the 18-20 degrees. With softer steel both values may raise accordingly.


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2019)

I did some digging around and found this ohishi suminagashi line.
http://couteliernola.com/ohishi-sg2-suminagashi-gyuto-240mm/
Thoughts?


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## HRC_64 (Feb 11, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I did some digging around and found this ohishi suminagashi line.
> http://couteliernola.com/ohishi-sg2-suminagashi-gyuto-240mm/
> Thoughts?



Still pricey at $400+ so it still has to compete with the big names...
takamura and ryusen (blazen lines) and also maybe tanaka r2 suminigashi
which makes me wonder...."who has the best heat treatment"?

Or do they maybe send it out to the same place?


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## JBroida (Feb 11, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Still pricey at $400+ so it still has to compete with the big names...
> takamura and ryusen (blazen lines) and also maybe tanaka r2 suminigashi
> which makes me wonder...."who has the best heat treatment"?
> 
> Or do they maybe send it out to the same place?


for what its worth, ryusen heat treats in house... i believe the others do as well, but i'll just speak to what i've seen with my own two eyes


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## labor of love (Feb 11, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> Still pricey at $400+ so it still has to compete with the big names...
> takamura and ryusen (blazen lines) and also maybe tanaka r2 suminigashi
> which makes me wonder...."who has the best heat treatment"?
> 
> Or do they maybe send it out to the same place?


I actually think it’s not pricey compared to other suminagashi 240mm westerns. But I ask about knives like this one and the jck r2 because they’re not really talked about much. 
Blazen’s reputation precedes itself. I want to get one really soon.


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## labor of love (Feb 11, 2019)

Takamura PRO petty arrived today.
It’s very nicely finished. Especially around the handle and bolster.. comes with a nice black saya with very good fit for the knife.
The blade is thinner than I thought it would be. I knew it would be a ground thin but the entire blade looks pretty thin.
Comparison photos w taka red handle will be happening soon.


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## HRC_64 (Feb 11, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I actually think it’s not pricey compared to other suminagashi 240mm westerns. But I ask about knives like this one and the jck r2 because they’re not really talked about much.
> Blazen’s reputation precedes itself. I want to get one really soon.



They are just at the deep end of the market for me personally (over$400 and into $500 range). 

So just for discussion purposes the heat-treatment aspect of r2 is something I really would be focused on. 

When I see a Takamura Uchi, the knife makes me think the makers put some soul into it...and reports of that knife seem to be pretty positive. But I don't get that same feeling looking at every knife, so it makes me curious as to what they are doing witht the grinds and the heat-treatments. 

Jon has remarked above and in other threads he's been impressed with Ryusen doing various HT on VG10 and other steels like r2. Takamura seems to have a long history of expereince with r2 going back in part to work with ryusen/blazen. 

Ohishi is a strange brand with not alot known about it (who makes what for them, etc), so its good to ask these questions. 

Was not trying to presume a good or bad answer one way or the other with them.


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## labor of love (Feb 11, 2019)

For sure.
Ohishi is a strange brand. They also have a nashiji ginsanko line that I believe is from sanjo. This seems unusual to me, as I’ve never seen a sanjo smith work with ginsanko. But what do I know?
Either way the shop in question is in New Orleans which is an hour away from me so I’ll likely go check out both Ohishi lines in person soon.


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## JBroida (Feb 11, 2019)

i know a few sanjo guys who work with ginsanko


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## Ivang (Feb 11, 2019)

I really like tanakas r2, and prefer it slightly to takamura's (red handle) and kurosaki's (shizuku), which are the other 2 r2 knives i have experience with. 

I am really curious about the takamura uchigo, and if i had had any available funds this time some showed around, i would have snagged one.

Tanakas r2 blades are the ****.

Cheers

Ivan


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## labor of love (Feb 11, 2019)

JBroida said:


> i know a few sanjo guys who work with ginsanko


Cool. I knew I was wrong. Haha


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## panda (Feb 11, 2019)

this guy used to turn his nose up at westerns but he ran out of wa knives to try so now digging into this pool, hahahahahahaha


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## Cyrilix (Feb 11, 2019)

panda said:


> this guy used to turn his nose up at westerns but he ran out of wa knives to try so now digging into this pool, hahahahahahaha



Time to try a Genkai Masakuni Honyaki Yanagi. I don't even know if people buy those to use them.


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## labor of love (Feb 11, 2019)

panda said:


> this guy used to turn his nose up at westerns but he ran out of wa knives to try so now digging into this pool, hahahahahahaha


No lie.


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## labor of love (Feb 11, 2019)

There’s still plenty of wa handle stuff I want to try to though.


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## labor of love (Feb 13, 2019)

After a shift with this Takamura PRO petty I decided it’s a keeper. I was a little apprehensive if I was going to want to keep it at first because of the blade thinness, but it works really well.
In conclusion, and comparing it side by side w the takamura red handle 180mm gyuto I think you get about the same cutting experience with both knives.
This means that a taka red handle petty is a real bargain. But at the same time I’m happy with the perks of the pro. Nicer cladding, matching black saya, nicer handle, nicer finishing on the bolster+full tang.
I’ll drop some pics soon.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 13, 2019)

labor of love said:


> After a shift with this Takamura PRO petty I decided it’s a keeper. I was a little apprehensive if I was going to want to keep it at first because of the blade thinness, but it works really well.
> In conclusion, and comparing it side by side w the takamura red handle 180mm gyuto I think you get about the same cutting experience with both knives.
> This means that a taka red handle petty is a real bargain. But at the same time I’m happy with the perks of the pro. Nicer cladding, matching black saya, nicer handle, nicer finishing on the bolster+full tang.
> I’ll drop some pics soon.



No lust for the Uchigumo after your first experience?


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## labor of love (Feb 13, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> No lust for the Uchigumo after your first experience?


Sure, I’d love to borrow one! Haha, this takamura purchase was a shot in the dark. Uchi is a pretty expensive shot in the dark TBH. Never say never though.
Blazen and Kagero are next.


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## dafox (Aug 17, 2020)

GorillaGrunt said:


> I just got a Takamura Pro gyuto, they’ve been kind of hard to find lately. I wanted to compare to a red handle Takamura but I’m not even sure that’s necessary - this thing really wowed me. I’ll eventually have to try a Blazen though.


Ever get to compare a Takamura pro to a Ryusen Blazen?


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## dafox (Aug 17, 2020)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Takamura Pro gyuto is 43mm at heel, 3.2mm above heel, 1.8mm at midpoint, 0.6mm 1cm from tip.
> 
> @labor can you post pics of the petty? I had the red handle one and I’d be interested in seeing if the relationship is similar.
> 
> ...


Is that a 210?


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## GorillaGrunt (Aug 23, 2020)

Yep 210, haven’t used a Blazen. @labor I’ve got a 240 Kagero suji, almost sold it during the lockdown, but am glad I didn’t. Reminds me of the Shibata Kashima R2 in that I’m always worried about fragility and edge retention with a laser but this one pleasantly surprised me. The steel is awesome and of course being from Jon fit and finish are superb.


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## adam92 (Aug 25, 2020)

labor of love said:


> All these years and I’ve never owned an r2. But a do have a red handled taka on the way.


You gonna fall in love with takamura r2.


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## adam92 (Aug 25, 2020)

Benuser said:


> About Damascus: looking great to some, but not after a few months of use.
> Doesn't contribute in any way to the knife's performance. Rather the opposite: most Damascus blades are remarkably thick behind the edge.
> Makes good sharpening, which should include thinning, most problematic. You have to rework the entire face on both sides, with a progression of sandpaper. After that, re-etching with some highly corrosive substance. Sending out and having it done? OK, but not twice a year.
> No Damascus for me.


Me too, at the first I like Damascus pattern but thinning I hated to rework entire surface, no more Damascus for me anymore.


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 25, 2020)

labor of love said:


> Pulled the trigger on Takamura PRO petty. Thanks for the help. I’m kinda out of my element here, this is my first PM knife.



I like R2 steel don't find it hard to sharpen at all. My wife's is a Takamura. I use a carbon petty at home, used a Hiromoto AS core 150mm petty at work.


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## inferno (Aug 25, 2020)

i have one of the jck vortex damascus santokus. its very nice. 
very very thin blade imo. looks even better in real life.
it one likes something very thin this is a good choice.


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## labor of love (Aug 25, 2020)

For what it’s worth someone necro bumped this old ass thread. Ive already found and enjoyed several r2 blades.


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## inferno (Aug 25, 2020)

labor of love said:


> For what it’s worth someone necro bumped this old ass thread. Ive already found and enjoyed several r2 blades.



now you need to buy moar r2!!


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## labor of love (Aug 25, 2020)

Burrfection has some nice ones in his auction.


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