# To knead? Or Not to knead?



## Luftmensch (Nov 12, 2019)

I have recently started making sourdough. I love the end result but the whole process is a bit of a drama. In particular I find the kneading part messy and variable - mostly because I am a novice. The scientist in me would like to make the process as repeatable/consistent as possible...

So KKF.... What advice would you dispense to someone who is looking to streamline their bread making? My two thoughts are:

Experiment with no-knead recipes
Get a dough mixer
I am leaning towards the former just because it is cheaper and there would be less to clean up...

(Edit: I am only looking to bake once a week. One loaf for the house and one 'spare' if we are hungry or for the neighbours/family)


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## refcast (Nov 12, 2019)

I was messing around with different hand kneading techniques.

My favorite so far is to use a rolling pin to flatten the dough ball instead of just by hand. I guess the compression is higher so the gluten is shoved together. Cause rolling pin wood is harder than hands. Anyway, the resulting dough is much more firm, rubbery (in a good way) in hand and upon cooking (just as a noodle, to test). I just keep on going until I get the firmness and spring I want. I haven't seen how far I can go though. I really like kneaded dough. . . 

I tried throwing the dough onto the counter. . . it doesn't help texture too much. . . .


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## Paraffin (Nov 13, 2019)

I don't like no-knead recipes as a workaround for types of bread that are normally kneaded because, well, it's just a workaround. It boxes you into a corner, and doesn't allow experimenting with the vast number of great bread recipes from all over the world. 

I use a dedicated dough kneading machine which used to be called a Magic Mill but now it's called an Ankarsum machine. It's a Swedish design that's been around for many years, and under the Magic Mill name was a traditional Jewish wedding gift for the new bride. I like the "roll and slap" method it uses better than the KitchenAid dough hook. Like any kneading machine, it lets me do some cleanup of prep bowls and get the rising bowl ready while it's working. That's actually the main benefit, but I do think I get slightly more consistent results. 

When you knead by hand, you're in a feedback loop with the feel of the dough. You stop working when it feels ready. That's a fine way to make bread, and it's been done that way for a thousand years. You don't get completely away from judgement and adjustment with a dough kneading machine, because every batch of flour can be different, the room temperature and humidity may vary at different times of the year, and so on. You still need to "windowpane" the dough to judge gluten development (unless it's rye bread), and with some doughs you may have to stop the machine and adjust the dough if it's climbing up on a hook or not evenly distributed on a roller paddle. 

Maybe it's different with big commercial dough kneading machines, but the small home-oriented ones I've used like KitchenAid and Magic Mill need a little attention. They're not completely hands-off, at least with the doughs I use. Especially sourdough rye flour, which is super sticky compared to wheat dough. 

All that considered, I still prefer the machine to hand-kneading because I think I'm getting slightly more repeatable results this way, and it gives me 5 or 10 minutes to clean up bowls and get things ready for the next step. I get enough arm exercise lifting and cleaning the big heavy ceramic bowl I use for dough rising. 

Here's a loaf of Kassel Rye, one of the sourdough rye breads I've been experimenting with:


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## chinacats (Nov 13, 2019)

I use minimal kneading...all by hand and mostly early in the process... I'll try to find a good link.

After trying a bunch of methods...I found this guy's to work great...


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## RonB (Nov 13, 2019)

Peter Reinhart is now recommending the following technique, (from memory, so may not be exact), that is practically no knead:

Mix the ingredients until they come together into a solid mass.
Spread a little oil on your kneading surface and fold the dough 4 times - one time each from North, South, East, and West.
Let sit covered and repeat the folds every 20 minutes for a total of four times.
Either divide, shape, proof and bake or refrigerate overnight, (or 2 or 3 days). If refrigerated, allow to come to room temp and then divide, etc.


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## Paraffin (Nov 13, 2019)

I have all (I think?) of the Reinhardt books, so this kneading method must be something new he's been working on. Personally, I wouldn't want to wait out those four 20-minute rest intervals because breadmaking is already a huge time commitment. And the doughs I use would need more hand work than that for gluten development, but maybe the brief rise intervals are a sort of "self-kneading" the speeds the process? Anyway, if it works, it works. A "windowpane" test will tell 'ya if it's ready.


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## Bensbites (Nov 13, 2019)

I believe in minimal mixing and long rests. I am happy to give you my detailed recipe.


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## Dc2123 (Nov 14, 2019)

Bensbites said:


> I believe in minimal mixing and long rests. I am happy to give you my detailed recipe.



I would love to see your detailed recipe. My sourdough always seems to be a bit gummy in the inside and not as airy as I would like.


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## Chuckles (Nov 14, 2019)

The scientist in you may find it very difficult to create 100% replicable processes for sourdough bread making at home. I think Jim Lahey from Sullivan Street Bakery is the best method for no knead sourdough. He has a book out on it. Mixing may help develop strength in the dough quickly but the fermentation contributed by your starter is made most predictable by allowing long proofing times and at that point you might as well go no knead in my opinion. He has a YouTube video of a Harvard lecture series where he explains it.


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## Bensbites (Nov 14, 2019)

Dc2123 said:


> I would love to see your detailed recipe. My sourdough always seems to be a bit gummy in the inside and not as airy as I would like.


Feed starter every night. Take 20-30 g discard and add to 100 g whole wheat flour and 100 g water. Mix well and store at ambient temp overnight. Next morning, Mix well with 300 g water and 12 g salt. Add 400g bread flour, and mix until the water is just incorporated. The down doesn’t need to be well mixed. Let this sit on the counter until it is 1.5-2x in size. 6-8 hrs. You can push 10 if you need. If you can add some stretch and folds great, but not needed. Shape and proof in the refrigerator for 12-48 hrs. Bake.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 16, 2019)

Thanks for the replies KKF!



Paraffin said:


> I use a dedicated dough kneading machine which used to be called a Magic Mill but now it's called an Ankarsum machine. It's a Swedish design that's been around for many years, and under the Magic Mill name was a traditional Jewish wedding gift for the new bride. I like the "roll and slap" method it uses better than the KitchenAid dough hook. Like any kneading machine, it lets me do some cleanup of prep bowls and get the rising bowl ready while it's working. That's actually the main benefit, but I do think I get slightly more consistent results.



Wow! I hadn't seen these before. It looks like a very capable machine. I'll certainly put it on the list to consider. They are a bit hard to get in my part of the world but not impossible.



Paraffin said:


> All that considered, I still prefer the machine to hand-kneading because I think I'm getting slightly more repeatable results this way, and it gives me 5 or 10 minutes to clean up bowls and get things ready for the next step. I get enough arm exercise lifting and cleaning the big heavy ceramic bowl I use for dough rising.



I think I might as well... I like making bread for the end result... not so much the clownish workout it gives me


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## Luftmensch (Nov 16, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I use minimal kneading...all by hand and mostly early in the process... I'll try to find a good link.
> 
> After trying a bunch of methods...I found this guy's to work great...




That is a nice open crumb! Mine have been quite dense so far. Interesting technique of adding the starter after balling up the dough.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 16, 2019)

RonB said:


> Peter Reinhart is now recommending the following technique, (from memory, so may not be exact), that is practically no knead:
> 
> Mix the ingredients until they come together into a solid mass.
> Spread a little oil on your kneading surface and fold the dough 4 times - one time each from North, South, East, and West.
> ...



This is similar method to @chinacats link... I had also bookmarked this one to try:



It is a similar idea... short stretch and fold every ~30mins.


I have to try one of these. Just need to find the time!


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## Luftmensch (Nov 16, 2019)

Chuckles said:


> The scientist in you may find it very difficult to create 100% replicable processes for sourdough bread making at home. I think Jim Lahey from Sullivan Street Bakery is the best method for no knead sourdough. He has a book out on it. Mixing may help develop strength in the dough quickly but the fermentation contributed by your starter is made most predictable by allowing long proofing times and at that point you might as well go no knead in my opinion. He has a YouTube video of a Harvard lecture series where he explains it.



Oh for sure! The levain makes it unpredictable. The temperature here has increased as we transition to summer. It has been fun to watch the levain get more active.

I know there are too many parameters and environmental variation to get 100% repeatable loaves. But my kneading is so haphazard I couldnt really start experimenting meaningfully with recipe tweaks - I look like a cross between a first-time boxer and a cat with tape stuck to its paw!

I am very happy to have long proofing times. Currently I proof for almost 24hrs... mix and shape one evening, proof in the fridge, bake the next evening...


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## Khorax (Nov 16, 2019)

I feel like I can provide some insight here because, like you, I was confused when I first started making sourdough about various kneading methods and all the steps required. I have had a long, expensive journey into breadmaking and finally found a process that works for me. I also have a purchased the 1000$ Ankarsrum machine for the purpose of kneading bread, and you know what... I hate it. Why? Because I tend to make "high hydration" breads (like 80+%) and it's just a gross sticky mess... it's also a ***** to clean that stainless steel bowl and the rollers when it's covered with sticky dough. Please let me tell you what I wish someone would have told me when I first started my journey (at least for WHEAT breads which is what I assume you are making):

Gluten is gonna form weather you want it to or not. You can either use TIME and let it form pretty much by itself (takes about 2h) using the "no knead method" which still requires you to fold the dough over itself a couple times over the course of 1 to 2 hours... or you can you can make it form by FORCE (takes about 10 minutes)... like beating the crap out of your dough using your hands, a rolling pin, a machine with a hook, or the Ankarsrum with it's "rollers", etc. At the end of the day, you want GLUTEN to form. The gluten doesn't care how it got made, it's just happy to be there, and it NEEDS to be there so it can be a strong weave that captures the CO2 released by your yeast and makes your bread actually rise. So the question you need to ask yourself is: how do YOU want to make gluten? Your answer might depend on what you are making and how much time/patience you have that day.


Have lot's of time, not in a rush and feeling lazy? Then use the no knead method and just "pull and fold" it over itself a couple times every 20-30-40 minutes or so, do that like... 3 times. Done.
In a rush and don't have the time to wait around to tend to this dough as per method above? Then save yourself the 2 hours and just create your gluten network right there and then by whatever kneading method you chose, like a machine. I found getting the machine out, using it and cleaning it was way more trouble then the alternative no knead method. Just be careful, you can OVER KNEAD your dough and **** up your gluten network and your bread will never rise... like if you chew a gum for WAY to long and it starts to disintegrate into your mouth.
Making a super high hydration dough that will be a disgusting, sticky, wet, impossibly malleable mass that will make you want to shoot yourself in the $%^&… then no knead is the way to go.

So to be clear, this whole debate has to do with how you want to form your gluten network in your dough... this is the step that is being debated. The bread doesn't care how you made the gluten network, only you care. In fact one could argue that if you made 2 of the exact same bread recipe, and you used a "no knead" method on one, and kneaded the other... all the subsequent steps after that point, the baking process, and end result of crumb density/consistency, crust, taste, texture would be pretty much the same.
I use the no knead method 95% of the time.

Here is the video that clarified so many things for me and I really wished I had seen it at the beginning of my bread making adventures:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bz38BsEEL2g


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## Luftmensch (Nov 17, 2019)

I was fortunate to be able to participate in a sourdough class. The class gave us a great overview of the steps required. But we were taught the 'beat the **** out of it' method of kneading - I suspect because it suited the time scale of the class better!



Khorax said:


> I feel like I can provide some insight here because, like you, I was confused when I first started making sourdough about various kneading methods and all the steps required. I have had a long, expensive journey into breadmaking and finally found a process that works for me.



Ears wide open!



Khorax said:


> Why? Because I tend to make "high hydration" breads (like 80+%) and it's just a gross sticky mess... it's also a ***** to clean that stainless steel bowl and the rollers when it's covered with sticky dough. Please let me tell you what I wish someone would have told me when I first started my journey (at least for WHEAT breads which is what I assume you are making)



I have gravitated towards whole wheat and rye! Sticky mess indeed...



Khorax said:


> So the question you need to ask yourself is: how do YOU want to make gluten?



Excellent reduction. Yes... this is the part of the process I would like to streamline and make less clumsy!



Khorax said:


> Have lot's of time, not in a rush and feeling lazy? Then use the no knead method and just "pull and fold" it over itself a couple times every 20-30-40 minutes or so, do that like... 3 times. Done.



This does seem to be the least fussy option!



Khorax said:


> Here is the video that clarified so many things for me and I really wished I had seen it at the beginning of my bread making adventures



Nice visualisation of the timeline! 

One of the biggest tricks of domestic sourdough is time management - being able to 'fit it in' around other time commitments. I am going to try the second suggested schedule:

First morning: wake up starter
First evening: mix dough, fold & rest, bulk fermentation, shaping
Second day: proofing in fridge 
Second evening: baking
I might experiment if that can be drawn out to three evenings (a bulk fermentation in the fridge to shorten the time commitment on the first evening)

Thanks for the advice @Khorax! No-knead it is!


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## RonB (Nov 17, 2019)

Great explanation @Khorax ! I use the "fold and time" method and plan for it.


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## rickbern (Nov 18, 2019)

Sorry if I'm late to the party but I think Richard Bertinet's method of kneading is the best. I just love the process, makes me feel like I'm really doing something! I got his book pretty inexpensively on kindle and its launched me into focaccia nirvana! Have to admit, I'm still doing it with the SAF instant yeast instead of sourdough.

I bought a wooden bread kneading board to fit over my counter, best investment. Picks the height up a little and gives a better surface to knead on.

Here's a video


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## krstf (Nov 22, 2019)

I'm largely following the minimal kneading method laid out by Chat Robertson in his book Tartine bread, and mostly bake in a cast iron pot. Very happy with the results. It may seem complex and time consuming at first, but once you get the routine down it is really not so difficult. 
No experience with kneading machines.
I find the quality of flour makes a huge difference.


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## Chuckles (Nov 22, 2019)

I find his method for home kind of annoying. But it turns out an open structure if that is what you are chasing.


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## Luftmensch (Nov 23, 2019)

I tried this recipe:



Also very low kneading etc... My 'loaf' looks more like a focaccia or some sort of giant rye cookie 






I want to open up the crumb a bit and get more rise. My second proving was double what the recipe recommends - I had dinner plans! Perhaps it was too long and the dough collapsed...


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## Paraffin (Nov 23, 2019)

Luftmensch said:


> Also very low kneading etc... My 'loaf' looks more like a focaccia or some sort of giant rye cookie



Baking rye bread is in a parallel universe of technique compared to wheat breads. It helps to understand the difference on a technical level, and follow the results of those who have mastered it over the years, not just the latest YouTube channel.

I highly, highly recommend buying this book: The Rye Baker by Stanley Ginsberg

That will give you the technical background as well as a wealth of recipes (see my Kassel Rye photo above in the thread, from that book). The author runs the blog and store at "The New York Bakers" where you can get specialty rye flours that you won't find in the local supermarket or organic coop. A big part of successful rye bread baking is just getting the right flour! Well, that, and a well-developed sourdough rye starter for the lacto-bacillus magic that substitutes for gluten in wheat flours.

Also, I recommend sneaking up on rye bread baking with recipes that mix rye and wheat flour, with a store-bought yeast "boost," not just 100% rye recipes until you know what you're doing. A mix of mainly rye with some wheat is my personal sweet spot is for sandwich breads. I only use 100% rye flour with a sourdough rye starter for the hardcore Swedish and Russian dark breads, used as more of a crostini type thing than sandwich bread.


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## chinacats (Nov 24, 2019)

I'm also a fan of Ginsberg...and love making high hydration ryes... I don't love handling them


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## Paraffin (Nov 24, 2019)

chinacats said:


> I'm also a fan of Ginsberg...and love making high hydration ryes... I don't love handling them



Yeah, no kidding! I swear some of these rye doughs could be used for heavy construction glue.


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