# Who makes the Itinimonn knives?



## JaVa (Oct 26, 2016)

I've been wondering about this ever since a few months a go I decided I would get one. I had a couple of Ideas about it and now that I've had it for almost two weeks my initial idea is even stronger. I'm mostly interested in the StainLess Kasumi. 

Maxim doesn't want to or can't share that for obvious reasons and I can whole heartedly respect that, but I think it doesn't prevent us discussing about it. I'm not looking for any definite answers, just some fun discussion! 

I'll share my thoughts a little later. I would first like to see you guys think?

Here are some information that I've gathered so far. It's made in Sanjo, it's hand forged and water quenhed, it's heat treated to over 61 hrc, the steel is semi stainless, much closer to carbon than SS, it has a quitevtoothy edge, the one I have is taking very beautiful patina already, it's SS cladded, it's very well made and finished, thin behind the edge, very thin tip, profile has about 30% flat spot and then a gentle curve to the tip and the grind is convex. 

Any ideas come to mind?


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## F-Flash (Oct 26, 2016)

Havent looked much Into it. But since some of the itinomonn Line was Made by munetoshi, and now he has his own Line. I gues some of them were Made by wakui Smith. There aint much New itinomonn knives these Days, maybe because theres munetoshi and wakui (toshihirosaku) lines, so the Smiths make the knives under their own name.


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## skewed (Oct 26, 2016)

I agree, Toshihiro Wakui kasumi knives look very similar to the Itinomonn line at JNS. Different steels but that might be due to Maksim requesting certain steels for the Itinomonn line. Just a guess though based on very little evidence. The stainLess looks and feels similar to super blue. What ever the case may be, the Itinomonn line up is really nice at a great price point. I certainly enjoy the handful I own.


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## daveb (Oct 26, 2016)

My personal opinion is the maker is proprietary information that Maxim choses to keep close. Probably for good reason.

Don't care who makes them, I know where to buy them.


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## labor of love (Oct 26, 2016)

Munetoshi only made the itinomonn butcher, atleast I think that's what maxim says on the munetoshi page. It's been a while since I've handled an itinomonn but I think they're not very similar to munetoshi.


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## Matus (Oct 26, 2016)

daveb said:


> My personal opinion is the maker is proprietary information that Maxim choses to keep close. Probably for good reason.
> 
> Don't care who makes them, I know where to buy them.



Indeed, I agree.

But there might also be a very practical reason. It is obvious that different Itinomonn lines were bade by different workshops. For many customers it could be confusing to try to understand why that is the case (not every knife that Maxim sells goes to a knife nut like us). It also gave Maxim flexibility that if the cooperation of one of the workshops could not continue for one reason or another, he could expand the Itinomonn knives in different direction while keeping the name that already has recognition.


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## easy13 (Oct 26, 2016)

Not like munetoshi (minus the butcher) , whoever is making them, good on em, best "budget" blade out. Wakui similarities but my wakuis have an exposed carbon on the edge that patinas


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## Ruso (Oct 26, 2016)

Good question. I really wonder who is behind the KU line. Very impressed with the tip, and nice S grind.


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## easy13 (Oct 26, 2016)

On top of the Itinomonn mystery, Toyama smith is 75, what the he'll was homeboy up to before knocking out those frikin beauties? - Zensho line a few years back, but what else.


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## JaVa (Oct 27, 2016)

Matus said:


> Indeed, I agree.
> 
> But there might also be a very practical reason. It is obvious that different Itinomonn lines were bade by different workshops. For many customers it could be confusing to try to understand why that is the case (not every knife that Maxim sells goes to a knife nut like us). It also gave Maxim flexibility that if the cooperation of one of the workshops could not continue for one reason or another, he could expand the Itinomonn knives in different direction while keeping the name that already has recognition.



All true and a good point.

But there's few problems precented by keeping the info from customers. 
1. I'm looking at couple knives that i'm very interested in, but I might already own one of them (sort of) only branded Itinomonn. If I buy the other knife and realise I've essentially ended up with a knife I already had, that's kind of disappointing. 
2. One big reason for (at least for me) buying these artisan knives is to know who the artisan is that made them. Isn't that part of the intrigue?

There's already been guesses about Wakui and for arguments sake let's say it's him. There's also Toshihirosaku Kasumi knives which are Wakui knives. They look very much alike, grind, profile, finish etc. Since I already own the Itinomonn StainLess the only difference would be steel and the StainLess steel is very carbon like. So in the end there's almost no difference in the two. That is if the Itinomonn is made by Wakui?

Having said that, I'll repeat what I said earlier. I do understand and respect why it is needed to be done. I've been in a similar situation where I've had to do the same. I just wanted to point out that there's both sides to consider. 

But I'd be more interested towards who could the maker be, rather than talking about why a vendor does not want to share that info. It is absolutely their prerogative regardless of the reason.


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## foody518 (Oct 27, 2016)

Does anyone own both knives from Itinomonn (not the wa-butcher knife) and also Bernal's Wakui? Or are the comparisons only to Maksim's Toshihirosaku line?
Are they similar enough that one presumes same maker?


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## preizzo (Oct 27, 2016)

I have the itinomonn and the wakui. Different types of knives imo


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## JaVa (Oct 27, 2016)

preizzo said:


> I have the itinomonn and the wakui. Different types of knives imo



But if we would compare the Wakui Kasumi/Hairline (from bernal and couple other places) and the Itinomonn Kasumi, how would they compare? preizzo wasn't one of your knives a Kasumi and the other KU? If I remember correctly?


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## labor of love (Oct 27, 2016)

Itinomonn should be a thicker heavier blade compared to wakui.


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## JaVa (Oct 27, 2016)

Wakui Kasumi W2:
Weight: 158g
Blade height: 49mm
Spine at the heel: 3mm

Itinomonn Kasumi StainLess:
Weight: 165g
Blade Height: 50mm
Spine at the heel: 2.3mm

Itinomonn Kasumi V2:
Weight: ?
Blade Height: 49mm 
Spine at the heel: 2.8mm

Tose are the only comparable specs i could find. I was also told that the StainLess version is thinner behind the edge then the V2. All have about the same blade length and are a little over 240mm.


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## labor of love (Oct 27, 2016)

labor of love said:


> Itinomonn should be a thicker heavier blade compared to wakui.



I've only used butcher and stainless clad v2 itinomonn...they were both thicker than wakui.


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## easy13 (Oct 27, 2016)

I have itinomonn stainless kasumi gyuto and Wakui Kasumi Suji, so can't fully compare. Gyuto def not heavy, hairline definitely very similar in both as well as finish, can't compare grinds really because two different type of knives. Only have Itinomonn with me at work but I swear the wakui patinas on the edge by hairline and Itinomonn doesn't but have to double check.


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## foody518 (Oct 27, 2016)

JaVa said:


> Wakui Kasumi W2:
> Weight: 158g
> Blade height: 49mm
> Spine at the heel: 3mm
> ...



Thinner behind the edge that the V2? There will be nothing there :O (I own the 270mm V2 with burnt chestnut handle)


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## sergeysus (Oct 28, 2016)

I have the 270 suji in V2 and the white 210 suji with KU finish. Really good value on both.


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## JaVa (Oct 28, 2016)

I'll throw this in the discussion. I have a very strong suspicion that the Itinomonn StainLess Kasumi is made from SKD.

I now it's a bit of a bold statement as I've never used an SKD knife before, but everything I've learned about that steel suggests The Itinomonn StainLess is made from that stuff. 

My knifes edge took a patina (very beautiful blues and purples) after only two days of prep at work even though I wiped it down every time. So it's much closer to carbon than ss. It feels very hard (my guess is in the 63 region) Which is the way they like to treat it at Yoshikane. The steel is quite toothy, it has VERY good edge retention and it's hand forged, water quenched semi SS steel. All the criteria seems to fit the SKD?

Wakui used to be an apprentice at Yoshikane and would have full knowledge of how to treat the SKD the best way possible. So my guess is either Itinomonns are made at Yoshikane by Kazuomi Yamamoto and his team or they're made by Wakui.

Here is a link to a Yoshikane/Zensho SKD Kasumi and a link to the Itinomonn StainLess. Both videos are made by Maxim. I played the videos side by side. So let's play a game of spot the difference. :lol2:

[video=youtube;kMCALoyGKig]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMCALoyGKig[/video]
[video=youtube;0wHVJV5iEyk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wHVJV5iEyk[/video]

I'm guessing that the Zensho SKD Kasumi could just be rebranded to Itinomonn knives? When The Zensho/Yoshikane SKD Kasumi disappeared from JNS, a little after that the Itinomonn StainLess Kasumi appeared. Both Wakui and at Yoshikane have vast knowledge of working with all the said steels of SKD, V2 and W2. Which the knives we are discussing here are offered in.


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## Matus (Oct 28, 2016)

JaVa, just a note on the SKD (SKD12 to be exact) - that is an A2 tool steel and I am pretty sure that those are not water quenched. A2 is usually quenched in air (A in the name of the steel stands for Air) or between Al plates. Cryo is often used in the process too.


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## JaVa (Oct 28, 2016)

Matus said:


> JaVa, just a note on the SKD (SKD12 to be exact) - that is an A2 tool steel and I am pretty sure that those are not water quenched. A2 is usually quenched in air (A in the name of the steel stands for Air) or between Al plates. Cryo is often used in the process too.



Raelly? Well that throws a wrench in my theory. 

Any Idea what other semi SS could fit the bill?


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## Matus (Oct 28, 2016)

I do not think that any stainless or semi-stainless steel will be water quenched as that may cause the steel to crack (or so I read). I know Maxim states that the StainLess Itinomonns are water quenched, but that could be just a mistake.


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## Ruso (Oct 28, 2016)

Matus said:


> I do not think that any stainless or semi-stainless steel will be water quenched as that may cause the steel to crack (or so I read). I know Maxim states that the StainLess Itinomonns are water quenched, but that could be just a mistake.



Doesn't Heiji water quench both of his lines, the SS and Carbon?


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## Matus (Oct 28, 2016)

Well, I am not an expert on the topic. But as far I have read so far, these steels do not need water quench. What may be done in some cases is that they are first left in air for a minute or more, the temperature drops a bit and then they can be water quenched. But I am not sure about the details. It would be great if someone with real experience would chime in on the topic. I have a few more articles on HT of tool steals printed today, but not read yet.


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## JaVa (Oct 29, 2016)

So what do you guys think? 
I'm thinking Itinomnns are Wakui or Yoshikane made and I still think the steel could be SKD?

Thoughts? Ideas? Anyone?


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## daveb (Oct 29, 2016)

I know where to buy them:cool2:

The rest is noise.


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## Ruso (Oct 29, 2016)

I believe different Itinomnns lines are made by different smith. Yoshikane theory for SS is sound IMHO.


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## JaVa (Oct 29, 2016)

daveb said:


> I know where to buy them:cool2:
> 
> The rest is noise.



:laugh:

True, but I like a little noise sometimes. 
... So let's make some noise? :knife:


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## labor of love (Oct 29, 2016)

JaVa said:


> So what do you guys think?
> I'm thinking Itinomnns are Wakui or Yoshikane made and I still think the steel could be SKD?
> 
> Thoughts? Ideas? Anyone?


I really doubt it.


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## panda (Oct 29, 2016)

who cares, it's not like itinomons are expensive and you can get much cheaper directly from the maker...


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## Matus (Oct 29, 2016)

panda said:


> who cares, it's not like itinomons are expensive and you can get much cheaper directly from the maker...



i do not think that is the motivation why JaVa has started this thread ...


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## labor of love (Oct 29, 2016)

java, if you're interested-this line does have a Yoshikane connection price point similar to itinomonn.
http://www.epicedge.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=267&cat=Kumagoro+"Hammer+Finished"


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## labor of love (Oct 29, 2016)

Hell, you can purchase Yoshikane and wakui from bernal for not much more than itinomonn too.


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## JaVa (Oct 30, 2016)

labor of love said:


> Hell, you can purchase Yoshikane and wakui from bernal for not much more than itinomonn too.



I am aware of those and they are both certainly in my sight, but like Matus said my motivation was not about the price difference. I have no clue where panda drew that conclusion?

My motivation is that I believe (and I very well could be wrong) the Itinomonn is made by Wakui or Yoshikane and I would love to buy a Wakui Kasumi (actually thanks to you :thumbsup: ), but since I might already have it (just with a different kanji chiseled on it and different core steel), so I'm hesitant to buy the Wakui Kasumi now because I'd rather ad variety to my line up then get two of the "same" knives. 

And that's why I'm asking. I'd like to see what others think? That information could either persuade me to buy the Wakui Kasumi/Hairline or look at something else? So if anyone has more info about the matter I would love to hear about it so I can get going one way or the other? 

BTW the Itinomonn semi SS is a sensational knife. I liked it a lot it right from the get go, but the more I use it the more and more I like it. :knife:


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## JaVa (Oct 31, 2016)

I was wondering, if the Itinomonn StainLess / semi stainless isn't SKD steel what are the other options that would fit with the features? 

SLD would be too stainless to be considered IMHO. (again I have no experience with SLD, but everything I've understood, my Itinomonn is much more reactive than SLD is supposed to be?)


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## Matus (Oct 31, 2016)

I think there must be a ton of tool steels that have Chromium content that would fit the staining behaviour, I would just find it surprising if Maxim could offer knives in this price range from a maker using steel that no one else does.

Most if those 'other' steels would be even higher on alloys and thus even harder to forge and to heat treat.


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## Barmoley (Oct 31, 2016)

There are different types of SKD steel. SKD-11 is a version of D2 and SKD-12 is a version of A2, very different steels. Both, I guess, could be referred to as semi-stainless as compared to a pure carbon such as white #2, even though SKD-11 would be much more stainless. Or is it widely understood that when referring to SKD, a particular steel is meant? Thank you for an explanation.


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## JBroida (Oct 31, 2016)

Barmoley said:


> There are different types of SKD steel. SKD-11 is a version of D2 and SKD-12 is a version of A2, very different steels. Both, I guess, could be referred to as semi-stainless as compared to a pure carbon such as white #2, even though SKD-11 would be much more stainless. Or is it widely understood that when referring to SKD, a particular steel is meant? Thank you for an explanation.



this is the same thing they are talking about with SDK and SLD (sld=skd11=d2, skd=skd12=a2)


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## Barmoley (Oct 31, 2016)

Thanks Jon.


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## fatboylim (Nov 17, 2016)

To add more to the mystery, the itinomono I have is very purposefully thinned behind the edge. Could Maxim be thinning the knives before sale, thus adding to the quality assurance of the line in addition to the shigefusa style handle. If so, it is as much his specification and likely to be unique; so the OP has less risk of buying a duplicate. 

For me, he is the expert and happy to buy more from him.


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## Matus (Nov 17, 2016)

For what it is worth, I have used my 210 Itinomonn SemiStainless a couple of times and my first impression is - the edge steel seems more stain resistant than I would have expected from SKD steel. Whether it is as stain resistant as SLD 8D2) is yet to be seen. In general the kife is really well done and finished, with grind that is somewhere between laser and workhorse. A true multi purpose knife which impresses for the price. I have not shaprened it yet, but will soon. It arrived sharp, but there is a slight burr on the right side in some places that I want to strop-off on a finishing stone.


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## JaVa (Nov 17, 2016)

Matus said:


> For what it is worth, I have used my 210 Itinomonn SemiStainless a couple of times and my first impression is - the edge steel seems more stain resistant than I would have expected from SKD steel. Whether it is as stain resistant as SLD 8D2) is yet to be seen. In general the kife is really well done and finished, with grind that is somewhere between laser and workhorse. A true multi purpose knife which impresses for the price. I have not shaprened it yet, but will soon. It arrived sharp, but there is a slight burr on the right side in some places that I want to strop-off on a finishing stone.



That's so weird. My knife has developed a semi dark patina on the core steel. I wipe it down after every task, but still it seems to be slowly getting even darker. It looks great though.


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## Matus (Nov 17, 2016)

I guess I need to give it more time. But those 3 or 4 dinner preps left nearly no trace. Still - what you describe would be similar to how SKD Yoshikane behaves. The SLD steel in my experience takes very little patina even over long time with standard (carbon like) care.

To be honest - I am 95% sure the steel is either SKD or SLD - simply because these two do a great job, I have not came across other semi stainless (tool) steel that would be used more commonly on kitchen knives (OK, there is HAP40 - I actually have Spyderco Delica in that steel - what does not help me much to make a comparison though  ) and there would be little point to develop a HT procedure for a small batch of knives - that is probably the strongest reason IMO.


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## JaVa (Nov 17, 2016)

I have the HAP40 gyuto too and it's patina behaved very similarly, only the patina developed slightly faster and ended up darker (almost black) than what I've seen so far with the Itinomonn.

And I would definitely agree with it being an impressive multipurpose knife. It really is a a wonderful blade!


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## JaVa (Nov 17, 2016)

Also I believe HAP40 isn't forged. According to Maxim Itinomonn StainLess is forged and Maxim also mentioned specifically that it's not made of HAP40.


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## fatboylim (Nov 21, 2016)

So here is a random theory, it could be a workhorse version of a yusuke extra hard that has been purposefully thinned... or it could be any combination of something else. Best to try one and sell it if it is too similar to something you have. Also, itinomonn rarely get sold on BST. If they do, they get retracted from sale frequently!


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## labor of love (Nov 21, 2016)

fatboylim said:


> So here is a random theory, it could be a workhorse version of a yusuke extra hard that has been purposefully thinned... or it could be any combination of something else. Best to try one and sell it if it is too similar to something you have. Also, itinomonn rarely get sold on BST. If they do, they get retracted from sale frequently!



Itinomonn could be yusuke? This thread is ridiculous.


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## Timthebeaver (Nov 21, 2016)

An Awase (Itinomonn) knife from Sanjo the same as a Zen-ko Swedish stainless (Yusuke "extra hard") from Sakai? Sounds legit.


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## easy13 (Nov 21, 2016)

The End


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