# Gesshin stones first impression



## captaincaed (Mar 29, 2019)

I normally loathe "first impression" reviews because what the hell do I know after having something for ONE DAY?

...but

I've had a hell of a time getting an edge I like on a very hard PM blade and a honyaki. For some reason I could draw a burr, remove it, get a shaving sharp edge, but it still never seemed that good. Lacked bite in the PM case or seemed to lose the edge quickly in the honyaki case. I even experimented with a nagura/black Arkansas combo that helped, but didn't get all the way there.

Enter gesshin 2k soaker and gesshin synthetic natural soaker. Compared to King, Togiharu and Naniwa, I see faster cutting, very good feel and initially a very nice final edge from the synthetic natural. Bitey but not rough. Knives now cut woody asparagus with just the knife weight. I'm impressed. We'll see how that holds up over time. Synthetic natural stone cuts slower on the really hard steel, but does really cut and doesn't just burnish like the Arkansas. 

I'll provide more feedback after some use. So far I'm very happy with the upgrade. These feel like stones that someone really thought about. Not that my old ones are bad by any stretch! But these really help with challenging steels.


----------



## Matus (Mar 29, 2019)

I am glad you like the stones - your experience reflects mine pretty closely. For me the oy way to get even better edge than the Synthetic Natural is to go to some nice Suita stone.


----------



## captaincaed (Mar 29, 2019)

Matus
Honestly your open evangelism swayed me to plunk down some bucks. I was considering a "safe" diamond option, now I'm very happy with my choice. Feels so good to use.


----------



## K813zra (Mar 29, 2019)

Glad to hear that you are enjoy your new stone. When you really resonate with something it is great.


----------



## dan (Mar 29, 2019)

Thanks for the write up! What stones had you used prior to the Gesshin?


----------



## captaincaed (Mar 29, 2019)

Was using a Suehiro 100 for REALLY rough work (reshaping a knife), then a 220/1k King, 1/4k Togiharu (I think) and a Naniwa 8k. Also been toying with Arkansas black /translucsnt with nagura. Actually like that edge pretty well. Not toothy, but pretty sharp and seems to last. Cuts slow so it helps to finish on a fine waterstone just before.


----------



## inferno (Mar 29, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I normally loathe "first impression" reviews because what the hell do I know after having something for ONE DAY?
> 
> ...but
> 
> ...



The pm steels seems to favor the most aggressive more high tech stones like shapton pro/glass and naniwa pro/chosera in my experience. the honyaki is also most probably very hard and will benefit from similar stones. 
many "lesser" stones like the superstones are probably just a waste of time on these steels. they are not designed for this.

in my experience the maximal useful grit level is different with different types of steel and different hardness (the hardness transforms steel quite a lot!). 
I'd say for blue and white carbon and all other hard carbon you can benefit from maybe 5-6k real JIS stones. 
with pm SS maybe 3-4k, after that it simply cant hold on to that edge for long. usually only a few minutes.
regular ingot SS maybe 2k. after that it only gets sharp off the stone but loses it almost immediately. and i mean almost immediately.

with that being said i have taken japanese d2 to 12k and it gets sharp as hell, much sharper than it should theoretically. this steel has very coarse carbide structure, so it seems everything is doable. but is it worth it??  maybe not.

i would guess the gesshins are about as good as it gets in quality. jon has the option to get any stones he want to sell, and if these are the ones he's chosen i would expect nothing less. 
I prefer shapton glass and pro since these are cheap and i can get them locally. and they are spalsh and go. and they all seem to perform very similar over the grits, just finer or coarser.

Now dont go on a stone shopping spree! just use what you have and learn to use it. learn to use it well. 
"beware of the man with only one gun, he probably knows how to use it!"


----------



## captaincaed (Mar 29, 2019)

Oh man I love that quote! 

Yeah, I agree. I've been relatively monogamous with two stones (can I do that?) for a couple years and I feel like I understand fairly well how they work. I'm going to get to know these stones (and now a flattener) a bit more. I've been doing my best to work with non-ideal tools to build skills - softer, dished stones mostly. I kinda like that sentiment Murray Carter expresses in terms of learning sharpening principles. I'm starting to get a sense of what _kind_ of edge I want now. I know I can get something sharp, but _how_ is it sharp. Not "how sharp _is_ it," but "_how_ is it sharp". Like how Josh at JKI coached me through using a lower grit for protein slicers. I felt like I was losing my edge really quickly when it was at a higher polish. Now I've used it for batch after batch of jerky beef without even a touch up.

My friends think I'm a bit nuts.


----------



## inferno (Mar 29, 2019)

it takes at least 10 stones to be nuts imo.

for real nuts you basically need a few stones:

a diamond stone for flattening your other stones. like 150-400 grit. atoma, dmt, dmt diaflat etc.

a coarse stone like 2-300 i like shapton 220 myself. 

a 1k stone, shapton glass 1k, pro1k (this is regarded as the best 1k stone ever made by many, many people), naniwa pro/chosera 800 and 1k. the 1k finishes at 1500 or so and the 800 at 1200. the 800 is really nice imo and so is the 1k but they are messy. 

a midgrit. maybe 3-4k, i like the glass myself, i have both. and i think the 3k glass is the best stone shapton makes. its also probably the best stone i have ever used.

then you want a fine one, for high hrc carbons. maybe shappro 8k, or a 6k glass gray hc, or a regular 6k glass (i have not used the 6k regular white glass but i can imagine it good), the gray glass 6k though, very good stone.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 29, 2019)

People love the gesh 2k. There was a time when I used simple carbons and just touched them up every other day on gesh 2. Really quick work.


----------



## dan (Mar 30, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> Was using a Suehiro 100 for REALLY rough work (reshaping a knife), then a 220/1k King, 1/4k Togiharu (I think) and a Naniwa 8k. Also been toying with Arkansas black /translucsnt with nagura. Actually like that edge pretty well. Not toothy, but pretty sharp and seems to last. Cuts slow so it helps to finish on a fine waterstone just before.



Do you like the Gesshin natural synthetic better than the Naniwa 8k?


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Mar 30, 2019)

Used Arkansas slip stones to put edges on the go with my Ice Carving chisels. White med. & blk. Xtra fine. Kept the slips & a small bottle of honing oil in pockets of my leather chisel bag. Had gouges, V chisels & large long handle flats.

Years ago turned my Dad who had used Arkansas stones for his wood chisels on to using water stones. He bought Japanese carbon turning tools and sharpened them on water stones. He was turning beautiful large bowls mostly of pinewood into his 90's before he passed away.

Whatever works for you, like Murry Carter very sharp edges on a couple of Kings.

I'm a fan of the Gesshin soakers. Use the Xtra large 400 & 1000 at the school teaching one on one. They do the job for all kinds of knives that students bring in.


----------



## captaincaed (Mar 30, 2019)

dan said:


> Do you like the Gesshin natural synthetic better than the Naniwa 8k?


It's too soon to say, really. I'll do some followup when I've had the chance to do some more cooking this week. They're very different grit levels as well, so it may be an apples-to-oranges comparison, honestly.


----------



## captaincaed (Mar 30, 2019)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Used Arkansas slip stones to put edges on the go with my Ice Carving chisels. White med. & blk. Xtra fine. Kept the slips & a small bottle of honing oil in pockets of my leather chisel bag. Had gouges, V chisels & large long handle flats.
> 
> Years ago turned my Dad who had used Arkansas stones for his wood chisels on to using water stones. He bought Japanese carbon turning tools and sharpened them on water stones. He was turning beautiful large bowls mostly of pinewood into his 90's before he passed away.
> 
> ...



I really like the look of a box of Arkansas slip stones. Local hardware shop has some, but I have no use for them. I may get them anyway. You know, future proofing (or whatever I need to tell myself). How did you like them?

I'm very happy to hear your dad was so active with his craft so late in life, gives me hope for mine. I'm going to visit him to do dovetails in a few weeks actually. 

What's the teaching school you referred to?


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Mar 30, 2019)

Kapiolani Culinary school.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Mar 30, 2019)

The Ark slips would use to refresh edges on my chisels when going to a Hotel to do Ice Carvings. Kind of like touch up stones. Eventually would have to rework the bevels on regular whet stones. Used slips to remove burr & polish inside edges of gouges & V chisels.

Bought some hand forged carbon chisels when I went to Japan for competition. Guy pushing around a cart in the snow with bicycle wheels on it. Very nice tools. The large gouge I got from him proved to be very useful like for inside curve of a swans neck & many other types of carvings. The Ark slips put edges on those carbons that would glide through the ice.


----------



## captaincaed (Apr 1, 2019)

That seems like a very cool use for those stones. I'm always looking for a place to use them. I think woodworking tools may be their home.


----------



## SilverSwarfer (Apr 4, 2019)

I recently outfitted several stations with Gesshin stones. I find them to be exceptionally efficient and easy to use (Jinzo Aoto requires adjusted approach). For this reason, I think they are perfect for "community" usage. The feel, operation, and efficiency all translate nicely so those who are less experienced can still get great results. And they cut almost everything you will find in any home/professional setting.

I highly recommend the Gesshin Stone Set. It is priced very nicely, and it is practically exactly what you need for the vast majority of purposes. You get a 400, 2k, and 6k. These 3 stones can get you almost anywhere you want to go with almost any blade out there. All for a very reasonable price; these are high quality, high performance stones. Purchase confidently, I have been all smiles ever since I tried my first set!
-For rough stones, the 400 is a showstopper. Scratch patterns seem near 800 but you can remove material really quickly and easily, and it feels great. The movement and control are pleasant for a rough stone. You can feel where you are working on the surface of the blade due to ideal hardness. A bit of slurry comes up naturally and quickly, and is easily managed. Fresh abrasive is abundant and loading has not been a problem to date. Audio feedback is abundant and distinctly reflects what's going on at the contact point. Work is fun on the 400. 
-Interestingly, the pink 2k erases those 400 scratches in a hurry. The 2k is a stand alone anyway. For all purpose usage, I say the 2k is a one-stop solution. I find this stone works particularly well when you're in rhythm, working up and down the blade using long strokes. 
-And the 6k polishes out the 2k quickly and effortlessly. The 6k comes with a tiny nagura too! The 6k is almost creamy feeling yet firm/hard so you can get really really fine and focused on your apex for double bevels. Single/wide bevels don't aesthetically polish as well as our go-to Kitayama 8k's but they do better work on the edges.

Separately, the Gesshin 4k is an incredible stone of its own virtues. Another creamy feeling and relatively hard stone, the 4k loads more quickly and readily than the others. But the edges you can build on double bevels are perfect for most utility. Most importantly for me, this is an ideal burr developer for my single bevels. Scratch patterns are gentle on blade roads and material is removed at just the right pace. You can work up a tiny burr in a tiny second, also you can build the burr at a very precise pace, that is you can focus and manage particular spots to get even along the blade. 

Jinzo Aoto is an interesting stone. If you read Jon's description on the purchase page, you'll know all you need to know to use the stone properly. I advise you just remember what you read when you're learning this stone. Keep it wet and muddy and use light pressure. Results are unique. It is expensive and it dishes very easily so it won't last very long. But it does things other stones don't. And it feels awesome... unless you're doing something wrong. It gets grabby and starts to sporadically load if you use too much pressure or not enough slurry. So in a way the characteristics of use keep you in good technique. I'm halfway through my first one after 2 months use, and I will replace it when it's done. I have it loaned out for evaluation, if I get good feedback, we will be adding this stone to all locations.

Because of 100% satisfaction I look forward to trying the other offerings. I have an eye on the splash-go and SN Finishing Stone for my next purchase. 

Anyone have any feedback/experience with the SN Finisher?


----------



## inferno (Apr 5, 2019)

is this the jinzo stone??
https://www.dictum.com/en/several-manufacturers-eaf/jinzo-sharpening-stone-grit-2000-710991


----------



## SilverSwarfer (Apr 5, 2019)

This is the one I was saying I used:
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...shi-medium-stones/products/gesshin-jinzo-aoto

This is the one I want to try or hear some feedback:
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.co...ine-stones/products/gesshin-synthetic-natural

Neither look similar to Inferno’s reference


----------



## inferno (Apr 5, 2019)

yeah the one you posted dont look like the one i posted at all. I just read jinzo and knew i have seen it before.

Regarding the synthetic naturals. I wonder if it uses a crushed up natural stone or if its just a mixed grit stone?
I know the shapton glass 16k is a mixed grit stone from 2-16k or so supposedly. And no one really likes it. I dont think i have ever tried any mixed grit stone. at least not one that has a wide swing in the grits used.


----------



## SilverSwarfer (Apr 5, 2019)

inferno said:


> yeah the one you posted dont look like the one i posted at all. I just read jinzo and knew i have seen it before.
> 
> Regarding the synthetic naturals. I wonder if it uses a crushed up natural stone or if its just a mixed grit stone?
> I know the shapton glass 16k is a mixed grit stone from 2-16k or so supposedly. And no one really likes it. I dont think i have ever tried any mixed grit stone. at least not one that has a wide swing in the grits used.


I'm pretty sure they are just mixed grit stones. the Jinzo Aoto acts like it's mixed grit, and results look like mixed grit. Not sure though.

I have about 70% certainty I read someplace the Jinzo Aoto is 1k mixed with 3k... but that's just what I am sort of confident I might have read someplace... so it's a ridiculously inaccurate rumor of a guess.


----------



## daveb (Apr 5, 2019)

My recollection is that the JKI Jinzo is about 800 grit. Owned one for awhile, may still just haven't seen it. Does a nice job of smoothing and leaves a darkish kasumi. Subsequent stones will remove the darkish component but not the smooth. The 800 King and JNS 800 will produce similar effects


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Apr 5, 2019)

Yep that what I use it for. Spiff up my KU carbons. It creates a lot of mud with light touch gives a even grey kasumi. If mud gets too thick, thin it with a mist pump water bottle.


----------



## JBroida (Apr 6, 2019)

inferno said:


> yeah the one you posted dont look like the one i posted at all. I just read jinzo and knew i have seen it before.
> 
> Regarding the synthetic naturals. I wonder if it uses a crushed up natural stone or if its just a mixed grit stone?
> I know the shapton glass 16k is a mixed grit stone from 2-16k or so supposedly. And no one really likes it. I dont think i have ever tried any mixed grit stone. at least not one that has a wide swing in the grits used.


not the same stone as the one you posted... jinzo just translates to synthetic.

Most of the synthetic stones you see do not include any natural stone particles. They are mixed grits (usually). The shapton is not a mixed grit stone though. Technically all stones include some range of grits, though its not usually as wide of a range as what you listed.


----------



## dan (Apr 6, 2019)

JBroida said:


> not the same stone as the one you posted... jinzo just translates to synthetic.
> 
> Most of the synthetic stones you see do not include any natural stone particles. They are mixed grits (usually). The shapton is not a mixed grit stone though. Technically all stones include some range of grits, though its not usually as wide of a range as what you listed.



Does your synthetic natural finishing stone have natural stone particles?


----------



## JBroida (Apr 6, 2019)

nope... just a mix of synthetic abrasives that i thought created an edge feel similar to some lower grit natural finishing stones i liked


----------



## frank358fr (Apr 8, 2019)

Glad to hear that you are enjoy your new stone


----------

