# Why carbon, if there are stainless steels like CPM154 and AEB-L?



## Don Nguyen (Oct 13, 2013)

Stainless steels have gotten really good lately. CPM154 and AEB-L both can get to high hardness values and have very small grains. I haven't really heard a single bad thing about these steels if they were heat treated well. I'm sure in the future there will be more stainless options available with really great properties.

What reasons then would we still need carbon steels for? Is there still something that carbon offers over stainless performance wise? I know aesthetically we like them for various reasons, but I'm curious about how they actually behave side to side.


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## Timthebeaver (Oct 13, 2013)

The only real reasons I can think of are 1) - That cheap carbon is better than cheap stainless, and that 2) carbon is slightly easier to sharpen I would say.

I don't think there are any performance advantages. The romance/tradition of carbon is a strong draw for some, personally, as a home cook I don't like very reactive knives - although i'll accept that most of these are iron-clad beasts - monosteel carbons are generally much better.


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 13, 2013)

Carbon is cooler than stainless. Patina = knife tattoos


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## labor of love (Oct 13, 2013)

Ive owned several AEBl knives that were supposedly "heat treat treated well" and i can say they arent replacing my nice carbon anytime soon.


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## Anton (Oct 13, 2013)

As long a these heat treatment is done well, and clearly several makers are making perfect examples of these; CPM154, AEB-L, etc are starting to replace my carbons; in my amateur hands it's hard if not impossible to find performance difference from top makers using these. I like that these new steels are being pushed and experimented with with some amazing results challenging traditional carbons. 

That being said, I do LOVE my carbons, we've just grown to really like each other.


And... my girlfriend certainly appreciates that these "don't smell funny"...


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## mc2442 (Oct 13, 2013)

Wow, I expected much more backlash against the premise of this thread.

Personally I prefer stainless over carbon, especially since I am not the only one that uses them in my kitchen. I have done a couple carbon, and maybe a bit easier on the stones on average, but not much, and I have some wonderfully performing stainless knives in regards to sharpness and edge retention.


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## Timthebeaver (Oct 13, 2013)

I think statements like "the heat treatment is excellent/amazing/top-notch" are thrown around way too often. Frankly, if you're not a maker/smith/metallurgist you are just not in a position to comment. Anyone can of course have an opinion regarding the general performance of a knife, but that shouldn't be confused with a knowledge of heat treating.


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## cord_steele (Oct 13, 2013)

labor of love said:


> Ive owned several AEBl knives that were supposedly "heat treat treated well" and i can say they arent replacing my nice carbon anytime soon.



What he said. Not naming names, but I've got some highly-regarded AEB-L knives that will neither take nor hold an edge like carbon will.


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## tripleq (Oct 13, 2013)

I prefer carbon for the feel. Stainless just doesn't give me that crisp, hard feedback. I also prefer carbon for patina.


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## RRLOVER (Oct 13, 2013)

Some carbon steels just get sharper and sharpen easier then SS....But it comes down to personal choice....I have owned and used almost every steel out there!!!.....I am using a SS blade or a SS clad carbon.....I have no desire to deal with the BS of a scrap metal clad knife these days


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## labor of love (Oct 13, 2013)

i was quoting don, hence the quotations. and yes i agree, i know nothing about heat treat process so i cant speak of it directly. but i trust the people here who do understand good heat treats, and i know that several aebl knives i have used with definitive good heat treat by the maker, yet still there was something left to be desired.


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## labor of love (Oct 13, 2013)

RRLOVER said:


> ....I have no desire to deal with the BS of a scrap metal clad knife these days



he speaks the truth


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## Timthebeaver (Oct 13, 2013)

labor of love said:


> i was quoting don, hence the quotations. and yes i agree, i know nothing about heat treat process so i cant speak of it directly. but i trust the people here who do understand good heat treats, and i know that several aebl knives i have used with definitive good heat treat by the maker, yet still there was something left to be desired.



Apologies if that came across as a dig at you labor, it was in no way supposed to be. It just irks me that it pops up all the time. 

Like you, I trust those who know.


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## labor of love (Oct 13, 2013)

Timthebeaver said:


> Apologies if that came across as a dig at you labor, it was in no way supposed to be. It just irks me that it pops up all the time.
> 
> Like you, I trust those who know.


your 100% right though. expressions such as "excellent heat treat" are overused by those who wouldnt know.


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## panda (Oct 13, 2013)

i told myself i would never go carbon due to the maintenance requirements. yet i have migrated to mostly all carbons now, mo sharp mo easy to sharpen. 
of all the stainless, ginsanko would be my favorite, it behaves very similar to carbon.


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## kartman35 (Oct 13, 2013)

I'm not sure why, but I'm able to put a sharper edge on my Semi stainless Heiji than I can on my White #2 Yusuke. I find it weird.


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## gic (Oct 13, 2013)

I think the poster who said money said it right, excluding emotions, it is $$ and so when the $$ are the same and the maker is a master of his craft, modern stainless and semi stainless are just as good as carbon. I love my shig but when my turn comes to get my Marko in stainless, I'm sure it will be just as good (if not better).

Another case in point: I posted a question a while ago about getting my Devin ITK in AEB-L or 52100 and the consensus was get the AEB-L, the consensus of the experts here was there just isn't any advantage if Devin is doing the heat treatment to 52100 over his AEB-L and the AEB-L may even be better. But that is Devin who is the master of AEB-L.

However on the really really low end, and if one allows used knives from the bay, there doesn't seem to be much a question to me that an old foregcraft is the best knife you can buy if you are willing to clean it up if necessary. I don't believe you can buy any knife that outperforms a used forgie bought for say under $40 

For example, suppose I was recommending a beginning knife to a serious but poor person with an under $50 budget: I could recommend a Forschner or I could recommend a used carbon Forgecraft on the bay. the prices seem roughly comparable. In my opinion a used Forgecraft sharpens more easily, sharpens "sharper" and has a better geometry.


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## mc2442 (Oct 13, 2013)

I guess I should qualify my preference for stainless with my main AEB-L exposure is DT-ITK from a couple of knives.


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## Delbert Ealy (Oct 13, 2013)

Posting as someone who is a full time maker, I know I don't have the experience that Devin does with AEBL, but I have been working with it for several years now and it has become one of my favorite steels. Now I am a stubborn cuss when it comes to steel, I don't adopt new ones very easily. To me the steels I use are like part of my family. I do believe that I do an excellent job on the heat treat of AEBL. Having said that I have almost 20 years of working with O-1 and I know it well. With the heat treatment I use, it is an excellent knife steel, and as good as AEBL is the O-1 is still better, has a finer, longer lasting edge. I can't compare it to some of the other steels out there other than by comparing the composition of the steels, which can tell you a lot, but O-1 is my favorite, and even with small batch smelting becoming easier, making dream alloys possible, I will still stick with O-1.
Del


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## JMJones (Oct 13, 2013)

I like carbon and am happy others do too because stainless is not very conducive to forging, and that is how I prefer to make a knife. Before really getting a handle on sharpening, I was able to sharpen carbon much better than stainless. Now it is not such a big difference, especially using diamond stones.


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## labor of love (Oct 13, 2013)

gic said:


> I think the poster who said money said it right, excluding emotions, it is $$ and so when the $$ are the same and the maker is a master of his craft, modern stainless and semi stainless are just as good as carbon. I love my shig but when my turn comes to get my Marko in stainless, I'm sure it will be just as good (if not better).


as far as $$ is concerned, would it be fair to assume the performance of aebl steel in the dt itk to be on par with the performance of a dt custom?


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## El Pescador (Oct 13, 2013)

labor of love said:


> as far as $$ is concerned, would it be fair to assume the performance of aebl steel in the dt itk to be on par with the performance of a dt custom?



Nope. DT customizes the heat treat to the user.


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 13, 2013)

For around 80.00 a Fujiwara Stainless is quite a bit better than a Forschner for a little more coin. A rosewood handle 10" Forschner is around 50.00 now.

For most people reccom. a carbon doesn't work.They can't even take care of a stainless knife.I can't believe I am saying this but for home users a quality stainless is a good option.Now that I am retired more stainless is migrating to my Mag Bloc.The latest a 240 Gesshin Ginga.I even have a stainless cleaver now that I like,but these blades are not cheap.

Most stainless that the masses use is crap,lowest common denominator steel.It dents instead of chips,hard to sharpen,losy edge holding.

But cutting all day in the workforce carbon shines,where a sharp edge & ease of sharpening is very important.I know I sound like a broken record,but carbon does best when it is used alot hours a day.If it is not being used you had better oil it.


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## gic (Oct 13, 2013)

Keith is right: even fibrox Forschners have gone up in price a lot, if you shopped around they used to be around $30 for a 10" chef, now they are $40 (and $50 if you don't shop around). I guess the Swiss franc is just crazy nowadays.

Interestingly enough I paid $22 on a lightning sale from Amazon for some 8" fibrox I gifted last Christmas, it's now 36.59!


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## labor of love (Oct 13, 2013)

El Pescador said:


> Nope. DT customizes the heat treat to the user.



thanks. at this point i would have to say that what takeda does with AS steel pretty awesome. the 2 times ive used takedas has left a quite a lasting impression on me. the characteristics of that steel couldnt be matched by anything stainless, atleast from my experience. of all the knives ive tried, i think takeda steel is my favorite, if were speaking only about steel performance alone, and not considering other knife characteristics. the niolox stuff tilman uses takes as steep an edge as anything ive ever used stainless or carbon. i cant wait til my custom tilman is complete.


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## Delbert Ealy (Oct 13, 2013)

Just keep in mind guys, stainless steel is 100 years old this year. Way to go Harry Brearley.
Just for fun,
Del


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 13, 2013)

Yep,but it wasn't until 1951 Emerson Case, president of Robeson Cutlery with help figured out Frozen Heat process,Heat,Freeze,and temper by reheating again,that quality stainless emerged.


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## labor of love (Oct 13, 2013)

as amazing as nice stainless performs, i think there will always be a place for carbon.


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## Don Nguyen (Oct 13, 2013)

Awesome replies everyone, thanks!


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## bear1889 (Oct 14, 2013)

As a novice knife sharpener I can tell you this, I have five or six carbon steel knives and five or six stainless. By far the sharpest knives I've got are the carbon. I have white #1 or #2 Santoku that is scary sharp, with the rest in the following order, a forgecraft slicer, Case XX forged 8 inch Chef, an ol'hickory six inch chef, and Sabatier 10 inch chef.

I do have a newer custom in 01 carbon that I find hard to put an edge on, so it will be my last knife in 01 carbon unless someone convinces me otherwise.

I have a Shun Kramer 10 inch chef in their stainless that takes an edge well, of course everybody gives Shun a bad rap for chipping etc, but I have dropped that knife on a linoleum covered concrete floor and watched it bounce 2 or 3 times with no damage to it, so go figure.

I have a new custom in CPM154 and I find it the most difficult to sharpen. Of course it's not as bad as 25 year old Seki stainless steel cooking set my girlfriend received as a wedding gift that has to be the toughest stainless I have ever seen. That stainless reminds more of the tool steel norinco was using in Colt 1911 knockoffs when they first imported them to the US.

Again, as a novice sharpener, I would rather have a knife that was easy to put an edge on but had little edge retention than a knife that was hard to put an edge on that had great edge retention. Does that make sense?


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## rdm_magic (Oct 14, 2013)

I agree with Bear. My AEBL ITK is far harder to get a sharp edge on than the carbons I have. Maybe the edge doesn't last as long, but if you can't get the edge in the first place whats the point?


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## Keith Sinclair (Oct 14, 2013)

Hmm I have found that AEB-L sharpens well not too much unlike carbon.Vg-10 takes a sharp edge too,in my limited experience with stainless I give the edge holding to AEB-L.Agree with Bear VG-10's bad rap is over blown.

I agree that ease of sharpening is a major plus,often taking a backseat to edge holding ability.That is why carbons function so well in the workforce.:groucho:


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## Anton (Oct 14, 2013)

Tried to decide for myself what is indeed better this past weekend so pulled out 1 carbon, 1 AEBL and 1 San Mai - all top makers; after prepping a dinner for 7 with a pre-prep sharpening session I arrived to my OWN conclusion: like most things it truly comes out to be a personal preference. 

If I was to analyze this, granted it is only knives I'm talking about and speaking for myself and my personal home cook experience ... there are two angles 

In the kitchen: This day an age I find myself with less and less time everyday (and a smaller kitchen..) and more and more distractions (age perhaps) that lately I gravitate towards non carbon knives due to less maintenance and less concern if I leave for 10 min with some moisture on, etc, but more importantly the one which felt better, cut better and was generally a better extension, regardless of the metal 

On the stones: I just love the feedback carbon steel gives on my set, the superior edge I'm personally able to achieve in non stainless blades, even the the smell of the metal I've become accustomed to with carbons (maybe just in my head..) which in most cases leads to a better performer. 

2 years ago, I would have called you crazy if you ask me to consider a non carbon knife as go to.

I'm settling with best of both worlds for now, a San Mai


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## GlassEye (Oct 14, 2013)

Because I just like carbon.


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## banjo1071 (Oct 15, 2013)

Hi there
I recently fell in love with Niolox (aka 1.4153.03 odr SB1), heat treated by Mr. Niolox J. Schanz.... Gets ultra sharp and stays that way. And stainless, too. For me the ultimate steel. Althought i enjoy a carbonride once in a while, too

Greets Benjamin


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## berko (Oct 15, 2013)

can you compare the sb1 to the swedish stainless on the ashi or yusukes?


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## Marko Tsourkan (Oct 15, 2013)

I would vote for ignoring the names of the steels and going by the feel and performance (sharpnenability, sharpness, edge retention, etc) when comparing steels, carbon vs stainless or whatnot. 

There are AEB-L knives made by many makers and most are different - hardness, edge retention, sharpenability and some find it tempting to say that AEB-L is inferior to some other steel. Any steel with small carbides size will produce a superb edge if heat treated properly, stainless or carbon. That's the basic premise, and the rest the maker decides what one wants from a knife - more edge stability vs more wear resistance, etc.

I for one think AEB-L is one of the best stainless steels I have ever tried, but it has to be heat treated properly or it will appear just average. 

Sharpening on diamond plates is my preference for most steels, so perhaps I can't find sharpenability that much different between carbon or stainless.

AEB-L would be slightly harder to sharpen because of the cromium than simple carbon steels, but that is hte case with most steels that offer more wear resistance.

to banjo71 - try felt strop with 1M diamond spray to finish and maintain your edge. Also 8K diamond plate works very well on AEB-L.

M


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## banjo1071 (Oct 15, 2013)

sorry, this i cannot. But i can compare it to devins ITK AEB-L if thats of any use. Its much harder to sharpen, gets a littlebit sharper (ok thats more a question of knivegeometrie, so skip that one) and stays very sharp for a much longer time. Like most steels it looses its screaming killer sharpness (lets say the last 5%) quite easy (in about 2-3 Days of homeuse), but stays at 95% for like forever.......


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## banjo1071 (Oct 15, 2013)

@MT
You are absolutly right. A proper treatment (of any steel) is essential for a good result, what ever that may be. I am sure there are lots of midocre nioloxknives out there and on the other hand even a very good threated 440c can be amazing...I was only refering to niolox by j.Schanz (he is to niolox what Devin is to AEB-L, at leat in the germanspeaking part of the community)....


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## Marko Tsourkan (Oct 15, 2013)

I wasn't contradicting to what you were saying, but rather pointed out that sharpening medium (diamond vs whet stones) might be more effective for some steels than others, like in this case - stainless. I am also a huge proponent of finishing an edge on a felt strop with a 1-2M diamond spray (try it, it's pretty impressive) as well as maintaining the edge on a strop, as it prolongs time between sharpening considerably. 

Niolox is a hard steel to get in the US, so it is difficult to compare, but for instance, 13C26 vs 19C27 are quite different in more than one aspect, even thought both are made by Uddeholm and are in the same family of steels.


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## zoze (Oct 15, 2013)

As to the subjects of "germanspeaking part of the community" and "niolox" you might also consider Tilmans work for the top notch title...


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## NO ChoP! (Oct 15, 2013)

To me, carbon is like baking a cake with simple ingredients; sugar, eggs, flour, salt, milk.

Stainless is like store bought; preservatives and chemical leveners I've never heard of.

I like simple things.


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## Geo87 (Oct 16, 2013)

NO ChoP! said:


> To me, carbon is like baking a cake with simple ingredients; sugar, eggs, flour, salt, milk.
> 
> Stainless is like store bought; preservatives and chemical leveners I've never heard of.
> 
> I like simple things.



Nice analogy


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## quantumcloud509 (Oct 22, 2013)

Delbert Ealy said:


> Posting as someone who is a full time maker, I know I don't have the experience that Devin does with AEBL, but I have been working with it for several years now and it has become one of my favorite steels. Now I am a stubborn cuss when it comes to steel, I don't adopt new ones very easily. To me the steels I use are like part of my family. I do believe that I do an excellent job on the heat treat of AEBL. Having said that I have almost 20 years of working with O-1 and I know it well. With the heat treatment I use, it is an excellent knife steel, and as good as AEBL is the O-1 is still better, has a finer, longer lasting edge. I can't compare it to some of the other steels out there other than by comparing the composition of the steels, which can tell you a lot, but O-1 is my favorite, and even with small batch smelting becoming easier, making dream alloys possible, I will still stick with O-1.
> Del



You are defenitly doing something right Del because your knives do sharpen as easy and hold just about as long of an edge as my best Takedas. And Im not pro at sharpening. Your work is highly appreciated sir. 



GlassEye said:


> Because I just like carbon.



YES



NO ChoP! said:


> To me, carbon is like baking a cake with simple ingredients; sugar, eggs, flour, salt, milk.
> 
> Stainless is like store bought; preservatives and chemical leveners I've never heard of.
> 
> I like simple things.



Couldnt of said it better myself.


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