# Need help sharpening ZDP-189 clad 210mm Gyuto



## justmarc (Jun 1, 2017)

First thing, not to held against me is, I do not sharpen free hand. I am a Wicked Edge user. I tried to sharpen my JCK Fu-Rin-Za-Kan ZDP-189 Clad Wa Gyuto 210mm this past weekend. I attempted to a 14 degrees per side or 28 degrees inclusive bevel. This was the hardest stainless steel knife and most difficult to sharpen knife I have sharpened to date. I used Shapton Glass Stones made for the Wicked Edge. The results were less than stellar. The knife is sharp but nothing impressive. The finished bevel apex when viewed with a USB Microscope was almost a mini-serrated blade appearance. I have read many blogs, posts and forums all over the web that say the ZDP-189 can be hard, chippy and difficult to sharpen. So that I know, first hand. How do those of you with experience sharpening this steel get good results.

Any help or tips are appreciated.
Marc


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## foody518 (Jun 1, 2017)

Try to raise your finishing angle? Or a high one sided microbevel then deburr on the other side


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## Dave Martell (Jun 1, 2017)

How do you de-burr?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 1, 2017)

"Shapton glass stones made for the wicked edge" sounds like you are trying to freehand sharpen on tiny stones?

And 14dps without a microbevel is likely to be chippy indeed on that knife (got one from the same series, definitely microbevel it!).


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## Mingooch (Jun 1, 2017)

I have a different knife in the same steel and use diamond stones, that seems to help for me.


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## justmarc (Jun 1, 2017)

Dave Martell said:


> How do you de-burr?


 I generally use a scrubbing motion on one side first, till I apex the bevel, that is feel a burr on one side of the blade. Then switch to scrub the other side, to raise a burr. When I'm satisfied I've apexed the bevel on each side separately, I do bilateral alternating edge leading direction strokes. I start at the heel and work towards the tip splitting the blade length into three or four portions, working each portion till the edge feel is balanced. Then I blend the whole blade at the end with edge leading bilateral strokes from heel to tip.


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## justmarc (Jun 1, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "Shapton glass stones made for the wicked edge" sounds like you are trying to freehand sharpen on tiny stones?
> 
> And 14dps without a microbevel is likely to be chippy indeed on that knife (got one from the same series, definitely microbevel it!).


It is for me the best of both worlds. The quality of the Shapton Stones and the ease of a fixed blade sharpening device. Adding a micro bevel is probably the easiest and quickest solution. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try 17 dps and see how it feels.


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## justmarc (Jun 1, 2017)

Mingooch said:


> I have a different knife in the same steel and use diamond stones, that seems to help for me.



Nest time I sharpen it I'll use the diamond stones and see if the results are more in line with what I'd expect to see.


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## Dave Martell (Jun 1, 2017)

justmarc said:


> I generally use a scrubbing motion on one side first, till I apex the bevel, that is feel a burr on one side of the blade. Then switch to scrub the other side, to raise a burr. When I'm satisfied I've apexed the bevel on each side separately, I do bilateral alternating edge leading direction strokes. I start at the heel and work towards the tip splitting the blade length into three or four portions, working each portion till the edge feel is balanced. Then I blend the whole blade at the end with edge leading bilateral strokes from heel to tip.




You might be reducing the size of the burr but it's not being de-burred properly. You need to cut that sucker off by slicing into something that will grab the lose burrs, pull them off the edge, and not dull the knife in the process. A lot of people use soft wood or a wine/champagne cork. After you've pulled the lose burrs off you can go back and refine the edge with polishing stones but you may still have a folding wire on the edge after all that.

Stainless is notorious for being a bear to de-burr and guided devices are known to not help at all with this problem.

If all else fails get yourself a leather bench strop for the win.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 2, 2017)

Hold the diamond stones, that could make scratches in the hagane that will be a nightmare to get rid of again with small stones...

@Dave Martell do you have any recommendation of how many finisher passes to do before trying forceful deburring on ZDP? Doing it "cold" is likely not going to make that kind of steel my friend.... and I find myself blindly doing finisher stropping hoping it's enough this time...


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## justmarc (Jun 2, 2017)

Thanks for your help Dave. It's becoming obvious that this _ZDP-189 beast _is a whole different animal then anything else I've experienced. I will go back and watch your videos on free hand sharpening again to see what info I can glean from them and adapt to my wicked Edge technique. At one point I started over with a perpendicular stone across the length, heel to tip, to totally remove any ragged metal material and take it down to a fresh flat apex. Then I started with my coarsest Shaptons, with single sided scrubbing motions, until I raised a burr on the one side. Then I switched and repeated the same process on the other side. I had observed that when I thought I had finally apexed the bevel, the burr was gone and the edge was already appearing ragged. Any stone I tried, in my progression from that point on did nothing to smooth the mini micro chips.


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## Dave Martell (Jun 2, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Dave Martell do you have any recommendation of how many finisher passes to do before trying forceful deburring on ZDP? Doing it "cold" is likely not going to make that kind of steel my friend.... and I find myself blindly doing finisher stropping hoping it's enough this time...



Get rid of those burrs as soon as you feel comfortable doing so. There's no rules here, trial and error.





justmarc said:


> Thanks for your help Dave. It's becoming obvious that this _ZDP-189 beast _is a whole different animal then anything else I've experienced. I will go back and watch your videos on free hand sharpening again to see what info I can glean from them and adapt to my wicked Edge technique. At one point I started over with a perpendicular stone across the length, heel to tip, to totally remove any ragged metal material and take it down to a fresh flat apex. Then I started with my coarsest Shaptons, with single sided scrubbing motions, until I raised a burr on the one side. Then I switched and repeated the same process on the other side. I had observed that when I thought I had finally apexed the bevel, the burr was gone and the edge was already appearing ragged. Any stone I tried, in my progression from that point on did nothing to smooth the mini micro chips.



Two things that come to mind....

1. I would expect that one of the advantages of using the Wicked Edge system is that you can do alternating passes (side to side) to reduce the wire/burrs. Keep this is mind for not only reducing the burrs at the end but in creating smaller burrs from the start.

2. How do you deal with angle changes from stone thicknesses when going from one stone to the next? I thinking that if this isn't taken into account you might not be hitting the edge where you think you are thus never refining the apex nor reducing/removing burrs.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jun 2, 2017)

One thing that will take me some long term trial is whether the Superstone 5000 (which curiously doesn't leave quite its usual mirror finish. It seems to easily overpolish the blade though, leaving a cuts-whole-tomato-slips-on-halved-tomato effect) or the Yellow Coti (with its residual bite and reputation for not easily raising new burrs) is the better finisher/touchup for this series...


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## justmarc (Jun 2, 2017)

I work with a hand-held USB Microscope attached to a laptop next to my sharpening station. So I have a real time visual account of what I'm accomplishing right after I have done it. One real advantage is it helps limit extra metal being removed by allowing me to focus my attention right on the area of the blade needing it. I'm able to see by watching the scratch pattern right where my efforts are being effective. I'm able to visually confirm I've reached the apex and I'm hitting the edge. Of course I continue to feel the edge for sharpness. There's no substitute for the finger tip.

Each stone I change as I progress, both the right and left side individually, I verify the angle is correct with a digital angle cube device I handhold against the stone as it's positioned against the blade edge. If it differs from my desired sharpening angle I make any necessary adjustments. As you mentioned it may vary a little or a lot depending on the thickness of the stone I'm using. Also anytime along the way in the sharpening process if I see while visually monitoring the scratch patterns I'm getting unexpected results I can verify and adjust the angle. 

The sharpening process with the fixed blade device is definitely more a repetitive mechanical process and less of an art than free hand sharpening. I'm guessing the reward I feel using a sharp knife is the same as you feel. 

I did take a paddle strop to the ZDP-189 earlier and it is much improved for that little effort. Thank you.


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## natto (Jun 3, 2017)

When the stones are exact at the same height they grind the edge. Adjusting different heights might work. Same height is convenient.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jun 3, 2017)

My only experience with ZDP-189 is a spyderco. Have owned & sharpened other powder steel chef knives SRS-15, Tojiro HSPS, SKD, and R2. All of these are easy to freehand and put really sharp edges on. Am a fan of powder steel. However my limited experience with ZDP-189 is similar to yours. I can put sharp edges on all my folders, the ZDP189 not as sharp with more work.


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## Nemo (Jun 4, 2017)

I'm a relatively novice sharpener. I have never sharpened zdp189 but I have read that it's a bit harder to sharpen. Amonngst the PM steels, I have sharpened SG2/R2, HSPS, SRS15 and HAP40 and found them all fairly easy to sharpen.


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## rick alen (Jun 10, 2017)

Ditto, I can say there is little burr formation with R2 and SRS-15. I sharpen all knives to 10/side, then microbevel with a few stropping motions, angle to suite the tasks. I don't see why ZDP would be different, unless the HT went wrong. I know VG-10 will create an impossibly tenacious burr if its over-tempered, only way to remove it is with an obtuse angle.

What grits are you using?

Diamond should help, would be super cool if you get the set of two from Jon, unmounted, and have them waterjet cut to size for the WE. Go to any small shop near you, hand the foreman a 20 and he'll likely cut them for you right then and there.


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## justmarc (Jun 11, 2017)

I sharpened with all Shapton Glass Stones: 220, 320, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, then finished with 8000 grit. A few days later I took a hand strop to the knife and that really brought out the edge very nicely. Now I'm very pleased with it.


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## Dave Martell (Jun 12, 2017)

justmarc said:


> I sharpened with all Shapton Glass Stones: 220, 320, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, then finished with 8000 grit. A few days later I took a hand strop to the knife and that really brought out the edge very nicely. Now I'm very pleased with it.




Nice! Now to test how long the edge lasts and go from there.


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