# Stone Session - Ao Renge Ohira Suita VS Aka Renge Ohira Suita (EPICALLY TEST AND PIC HEAVY!)



## Smashmasta (Nov 30, 2016)

There's been a lot of talk lately of Watanabe's Ao renge Ohira suitas... So naturally I went and got one :biggrin:
I already have a aka renge Ohira suita that I got from AFrames, which being one of my first stones, as a lot of sentimental value, and works great. The last of Shinichi's (current) ao renge's can be found here. 

This comparison is less about if one vendor is better than another, or even if Ao vs Aka renge is better than the other (because they're really likely aren't in real-world applications if all things were made equal). This was more a way for me to do a review on my new AO renge which as gained some fame lately, and give my ol' aka renge some love (but yeah, sure, maybe some friendly competition :doublethumbsup

Anyways, I'm breaking from my 'usual' format to better juxtapose these two great stones. Because they are both so hard, I did not include any SS like I typically do. I certainly tried SS on these, and you can get an edge for sure, but the angle needs to be large, and well, I just didn't feel like doing it. I'm sure some people like to use their SS on Ohira suitas, but not me. These are serious stones that need some serious steel...

I got a little technical and timed myself (rounding to the nearest 1/6 of a minute) except for the wide bevel, just to further illuminate some differences (but always remember, kids, these are MY stones at my comfortable speed, YOUR stone and speed might be different...).
Since I wanted to compare stones to a respective steel immediately, I did not go through the usual progression of different steels for one stone then switch to the other, I did one steel and then switched stones - I have reflected that in 'Sharpening Experience' section.

Pics are at the bottom (still can't figure out why they're not showing vertically, so sorry...) You can only add 10 pics, so I had to be strategic. Im sorry about the lighting affecting the colors and such. I'll try and figure something out soon.

*AO RENGE*
Weights and Measures:194x68x22; 824g; 284.24; 2.9cm3 (dense)
Appearance: A peculiar yellow/green/blue/white combination thing going on. I honestly don't know a color close to it, and I haven't seen this color before. I wouldn't say it's very attractive, but it's not off putting, either - it's definitely cool in a Jnat way - aren't many that look like this, that's for sure. From the lone picture on Shinichi's site, I was hesistant to believe he was serious saying there was blue renge, and it was just a marketing ploy (although we know Shinichi not to be like this), but there really is ao renge on this, which I've never seen before. You could say that the color of renge doesn't matter, and that while Shinichi was honest, just because it's blue doesn't matter - and you may very well be right, but this is pretty awesome, I have to admit. There is also some kuro renge too, and that mixed with the blue and weird yellow faintly-radioactive thing its got going on, it is certainly one of the most unique stones I've ever seen.
Smell and Texture: It smells like molding clay and rubber (Shinichi lacquered this in urushi, which could play a part). It's very smooth, but not a cold, hard glassy smooth.

*AKA RENGE*
Weights and Measures: 203x76x50;1500g; 2g/cm3
Appearance: A beautiful off white with red and brown slashes from what is likely iron oxide (non of the many lines are toxic at all), and plenty of aka renge, with a healthy dose of kuro renge, which I actually didn't really notice until doing this comparison (like I said, this was one of my first stones, and I was way over my head, haha).
Smell and Texture: It's also smooth, with the sliiiightest bit more texture than the ao renge suita. No joke, but it smells sweet, like strawberry candy - it's actually very fun and inviting, haha!


*SHIROGAMI (165mm Yoshikazu shiro 3 Nakiri)*
*W/O SLURRY*
AO RENGE: 
- Time: 2:40
- The ao took off almost zero visible metal from the blade. My time is likely a few seconds longer than the Aka renge because I felt the need to check for a burr to make sure progress was being made a few times.
- The experience was great, but not sublime - we're talking about a very hard suita here. The positives were that it wasn't overly glassy - no slippage occurred, sound was pleasant, bevel angle feedback was strong - smooth sailing. No negatives, just 'sublime' for me is in the 3-4 range.
- The edge could cut through the gates of heaven, it was so sharp. Hairs ran, and paper set itself ablaze rather than be cut. Hello go-to stone for Honyaki lovers... 

AKA RENGE: 
- Time - 2:10 
- Just about a half minute faster. My fingers can tell that there's just the smaaaaaallest bit more texture on this Aka than the Ao, which translated to increased speed and visible metal shavings. It also being whiter, helped determine swarf concentration rate, etc.
- Experience for me was actually every so slightly better. The increased texture translated to better feedback - I could feel (and see) that I was 'doing work'. This translated into some likely subconscious increase in confidence, and my speed further increased (slightly). It should be noted that I've used this suita more than the Ao, but even still, not that much (unfortunately).
- The edge, for all intents and purposes, was equally as sharp, maybe ever, ever so slightly less. At these hardness levels, the ability to tell the difference is practically impossible (if someone has a good test, let me know). I would need a microscope or SEM to see any differences. If I had to guess, I would say the Aka renge would be a bit less sharp, and translate into a bit greater kirenaga.

*W/ SLURRY*
AO RENGE:
- Slurry was hard to get going - again, this stone is hard! Slurry was thin. It was actually a cool gray with a dose of blue, thanks to some of the renge. It's pale yellow makes the contrast pop. Very cool.
- Time - 2:00
- Experience was very much improved thanks to the tactile feedback from the forced slurry. Time was cut down by over 30 seconds. Slurry darkened quickly giving me a visible indication of progress. Burr formed very quickly. The time would have been lower but I was unaware at first of how big a burr I formed, so I had to spend extra time be careful to properly remove it - with slurry, this thing has POWA!:knight: 
Water management was minimal as the stone doesn't soak up any water.
- Edge was what you would expect from a very fine suita with added grit particles - that glorious balance of a laser-like edge, with the faaaaintest bit of teeth providing that useful tactile feedback. Just absolutely lovely. Hello go-to for Honyaki lovers (again).

AKA RENGE:
- Slurry was much easier to raise, perhaps due to the stone be every so slightly less hard, or I was abrading the 'texture' off. Anyways, much quicker than the Ao, but also yielded a cool color thanks to its off white color, mixed with it aka renge and brown lines. Like a pale rose blush. Fun!
- Time - 1:30
- More of the same greatness, with even a bit more feedback and speed. If you're new or looking for suitas, a Ohira suita with a dose of forced slurry is a great way to start - I remember now why I got this so early on; very approachable.

*AOGAMI (Zakuri 165mm Aogami 2 Nakiri)*
*W/O SLURRY*
AO RENGE:
- Time - 2:50
- The experience was largely like the with shirogami, but slightly better. The stone took barely any visible steel off again, but the tactile feedback was more responsive - it was like the edge bevel 'engaged' when it was done; the sharpening motions turned smooth rather than, well, abrasive. I took that as the stone say that the steel was nearly all the same in scratch depth signaling me to move on. Audible feedback was slightly increased.
- The edge was again extremely sharp, but a bit more robust, likely thanks to the presence of carbides preventing an ultra thin edge that the shirogami can. There were still no teeth at all, however, so the edge was very fine. I'm sure you can take this further with super aogami. I have a petty in super, but for the purposes of this comparison, I chose a nakiri in different steels.

AKA RENGE:
- Time: 2:30
- Still feeling a bit more comfortable with the aka, similar as with the shirogami. The edge also 'engaged' when sharpened enough. Audible feedback was also increased. Again, more swarf from the Aka than the Ao, helping a bit with confidence and speed.
- The edge was very similar to the Ao, with the sliiiightest bit more feedback when slicing through paper and snow peas, and feels even a bit more robust (we're talking like marginally than the shiro go through) than the Ao edge in aogami. I believe it will have a bit more kirenaga.

*KATABA (Shimanti aogami 2 Deba*:
I only used a slurry. Scratching would've likely been inevitable. 
AO RENGE
I was surprised at how _relatively_ easy attempting a kasumi finish with the thin Ao renge slurry was. I definitely pulled back on my pressure more than I typically exert in fear of bad scratches, but things went faster and better than I expected (keep in mind that I'm going for general tests, and did each stone on one half of the blade, AND had to fidget with lighting and my phone - not easy :dazed
The haze from the Ao was darker, and had a more consistent scratch pattern, making it easy to see in different angles of light. I was impressed!

AKA RENGE
Although I liked the Ao renge finish more, I was still impressed with the Aka renge. Since a slurry is easier to raise on it, perhaps I can reduce it a bit as to not get some rogue patches polishing where I don't want them to be. Something to think about. Scratch pattern was bit more prevalent likely because of this. Hagane was also more mirror like. Will take a good bit of effort to get down.



*FINAL THOUGHTS:* Both are FANTASTIC stones. Aesthetically, both offer very beautiful designs, patterns, and colors. Although one must admit to the even extra uniqueness that the Ao renge brings to the table - there really aren't many stones out there with this strange yellow (Shinichi likes to call it aquamarine IIRC), and a combo of black and, what really is, some ao renge. Very, very cool!
Practically speaking, both offer superb edges, and most of the time, only users who are looking for a difference, can really tell the difference. You're going to get very, very sharp edges from these if you're using quality steel. I will guess, but can't say because I don't have any honyaki blades, but if you're a honyaki fan, the Ao renge can be a game changer. While the aka renge is wonderful, the extra hardness and fineness of the ao renge will likely deliver a heavenly edge. And to have such a unique stone along with something as special as a honyaki knife - hello awesomeness! :cool2: Lastly, I would say if you're on the market for a ohira suita and don't have much experience, get a 'regular' ohira - no need to try and find these rare ao suitas. This aka renge was more responsive, faster, and left a totally suitable edge. The ao suita is definitely for more advanced users thanks to its hardness, and little swarf. The edge is likely sharper, but only an experienced user can really tell, and only those who love lasers will really care.

Re: wide bevels, both the Ao and Aka renge were a good study for me in pressure sensitivity. I was surprised at how relatively easy both were. I was even more surprised to find that the Ao renge was easier, and I liked the scratch pattern and haze better, but with some extra practice, the aka renge can certainly work, and training on something that is difficult only makes you better. I'm certainly not as apprehensive as I usually am when it comes to wide bevels and very hard stones (as long as there's a slurry).

*AO RENGE OHIRA SUITA*
*PROS:* Friggin' awesome looking! Uber duber(?) sharp edges. Speed really isn't that bad. Easier than anticipated finish on wide bevels. Honyaki match made in heaven.
*CONS:* Crazy rare, and pretty expensive. 

*TL;DR - BUY ONE - YES OR NO?*
*YES* if you like collecting and are into the weird aesthetic its got going on. Also if you use mainly shiro or ao steel. And if you're trying to step up your suita game. Definitely get one if you use a lot of honyaki...
*NO* if you're on a budget, don't like the look, and are all set with what your other suitas can do.

*AKA RENGE OHIRA SUITA*
*PROS:* This one is beautiful IMO. It's fast, responsive, has solid tactile and visual feedback. More affordable than the Ao renge suita.
*CONS:* Pretty much every suita is expensive. Can't get as quite as sharp an edge vs ao renge. Kasumi finish is a bit more finicky.

*TL;DR - BUY ONE - YES OR NO?*
*YES* If you're looking for a more 'affordable' ohira suita/ want to try out suitas; want something a bit more approachable and fast; and if you want to train your kasumi game.
*NO* if you're set on suitas, have a skill level that will find this as something that won't aid your Jnat arsenal.

Thanks for reading!





Ao renge on left.



Some :shocked3: colors going on



Close up on renge. Pic quality sucks, but it's black and blue for sure. The lighting is not showing the yellow tint, but it's definitely more yellow/green than white.



Aka renge showing off



Forced slurry on ao renge. Was hard to get going even on an atoma plate. Slurry color was a cool blueish gray.



Forced slurry on aka renge. Much easier to get going. Was a nice rose/blush color.



Shiro with forced slurry on ao renge. Things were fast and much, much more responsive.



Shiro with forced slurry on aka renge. Made things even easier and more enjoyable. Really nice.



Heel half done on ao renge. More consistent than tip half from aka renge.



Heel half on ao renge, tip half on aka renge. Pic doesn't show well the differences in consistency - tip half hagane from aka renge was also much more mirror like.


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Nov 30, 2016)

Impressive review. Thanks for helping other non-jnat pro users understand what to expect w different stones. I think I'm lucky to have found three that make my knives sing. But you descriptions and technique for coaxing slurry and the way you're using it is very helpful. This is the kind of content KKF needs more of. Thanks


----------



## Krassi (Nov 30, 2016)

Hiho!

Wow THATS a review of those to very intersting kinds of stones!
Shinichi called the color of the Ao renge "Melongreen" 

I am glad that you also have the same experience with both kind of Ohira Suitas.
With Aogami its working awesome , but also Aogami super, PM Steel like Sg2 and Srs15 worked wonderful on the Ao.
i once did a sharpening session and actually but anything i could get my hands on on that stone even my Ashi Stainless 

i havent tried any other kind of slurry makers than my worn out DMT and Atoma, so i ordered a Koma Nagura.. and lets see what happens when i get it  

i use my Ao renge Suita directly after my Aka Renge Suita and they both work like a very good team in succession.
the Stones you scored are beauties ! i guess thats the tempting thing about those suitas! 

best regards, daniel!


----------



## Smashmasta (Nov 30, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Impressive review. Thanks for helping other non-jnat pro users understand what to expect w different stones. I think I'm lucky to have found three that make my knives sing. But you descriptions and technique for coaxing slurry and the way you're using it is very helpful. This is the kind of content KKF needs more of. Thanks



Thanks. I found reviews very helpful when I first started out (and I still feel like I'm starting out, haha), so I'm trying to pay it forward. Plus, it also helps me a lot.



Krassi said:


> Hiho!
> 
> Wow THATS a review of those to very intersting kinds of stones!
> Shinichi called the color of the Ao renge "Melongreen"
> ...



Melon green - that's what he said, you're right. I'd say that's at least a bit closer than me combining all the colors, haha. Mine is still a bit more yellow, but I can dig melon green. Maybe if a yellow and green melon had a baby :O

I was very pleased with how the ao handled the aogami. I'll try it out with some super ao. I think the extra rigidity plays well with the hardness and fine grit size on the ao renge. That's why I'd looove to get my hands on some honyaki.

To make that very thorough aka to ao renge combo pure ohira, you should throw some uchigumori into the mix, haha. 

Let us know how the tomo goes. I don't have many tomos for my harder stones, so I need a diamond plate. I tend to use the 1200 on suitas and stones of similar hardness when I don't need too much slurry, but than use my 120 or 400 on coarser stones.


----------



## bennyprofane (Nov 30, 2016)

Great review, really a pleasure to read and I'm glad that you're happy with your AO Renge since I praised it so much when we talked.

I am myself still getting to know my AO but when I visited nutmeg last two weeks ago, he sharpened my Teruyasa Fujiwara Petty for three minutes on his AO and the edge was literally hair splitting. He used some kind of Nagura, not a Koma but a darker one, to creat slurry which made the stone so fast.


----------



## Krassi (Nov 30, 2016)

Hi!
Well i dondt know if melons are that green but the color is so unique that its not a bad naming for it 

what convinced me a year ago when i got mine was that Watanabe recommended it like hell to use after the ohira aka renge (i had a smaller size one and asked him what would be the next step)
He compared it with a very good Nakyama but its still a suita... never regret it like all the other recommendations from Watanabe 
i need to test it a lot more, like all the other stuff that i gathered in a short time 

@Benny
you dondt mean a black one like those Tsushima black naguros?
and "sorry for praising it so much" that you bought one yourself ) (sounds like a praise-chain *g)


----------



## bennyprofane (Nov 30, 2016)

No, not a Tsushima, was more brownish, perhaps @nutmeg can put up a picture?

No, problem, I'm happy for all of your recommendations, better to spend too much money on the right stones than on the wrong ones.

By the way, the Ohira Suita in this review with all those lines looks really beautiful.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Nov 30, 2016)

Thanks for posting smash, this is one review I've really wanted to see! I am lacquering my ao renge and aka renge from Watanabe as we speak. I also have four honyaki (blue 2) from him as well 

BTW I think you may have been thinking ultramarine which is the very dark bold blue (my Ao is sort of navy blue and black renge) with the yellow/green (chartreuse) color stone.


----------



## Smashmasta (Nov 30, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Impressive review. Thanks for helping other non-jnat pro users understand what to expect w different stones. I think I'm lucky to have found three that make my knives sing. But you descriptions and technique for coaxing slurry and the way you're using it is very helpful. This is the kind of content KKF needs more of. Thanks





Krassi said:


> Hiho!
> 
> Wow THATS a review of those to very intersting kinds of stones!
> Shinichi called the color of the Ao renge "Melongreen"
> ...





bennyprofane said:


> No, not a Tsushima, was more brownish, perhaps @nutmeg can put up a picture?
> 
> No, problem, I'm happy for all of your recommendations, better to spend too much money on the right stones than on the wrong ones.
> 
> By the way, the Ohira Suita in this review with all those lines looks really beautiful.



Brownish? Mmm, would be interested to know what it was. 

Thanks. The suita is a good one. My ol' gal.


----------



## zetieum (Dec 1, 2016)

Great review!! Thanks for sharing and the pics!


----------



## Bolek (Dec 1, 2016)

Nice looking stones. 
If my understanding is correct Ao means white. So Ao renge Ohira Suita means white renge Ohira Suita with suita = with holes and Ohira is the mountain/ mine. So what renge stand for ?
What AKA stand for ?


----------



## ynot1985 (Dec 1, 2016)

I thought shiro is white


----------



## Krakorak (Dec 1, 2016)

Really great review, all thumbs up!!! Your thoughts reflect quite well my hitherto impressions of both these stones (I am also one of those who scored an Ao renge from Shinichi recently, particularly due to curiousity and because I wanted to try the limits of my carbon knives), although I spent siginificantly less time with them so far (my akarenge is currently with Matus in Germany), didn't make a direct comparison and although my Ao renge seems to be relatively different from yours, having one side really smooth and very pleasant to use...and the other one, with lots of black renge, somewhat more tricky, I just discussed the optimal use of the stone with Shinichi...Hopefully I will find more time sometimes to be more detailed...


----------



## Krassi (Dec 1, 2016)

Hiho!

Shiro means white.. kuro is black and 
Ao is decribed as "ultramarine blue" but it looks black 
Aka is described as the pink color patterns.
i adapted them from shinichi.


Its all description stuff so a "ohira shiro suita with aka renge" ..
...is a very white looking Stone (like a peace of chalk) from the deepest layers of a mountain near kyuto that has been mined by the Ohira family and it has small pink dots or patterns.

the description is like a feature list and origin of the stone..


----------



## nutmeg (Dec 1, 2016)

bennyprofane said:


> No, not a Tsushima, was more brownish, perhaps @nutmeg can put up a picture?



Bennyprofane, I let you put a name on those ;-)


kostenlos bilder hochladen
The right one on the picture is the one I usually use on Ao Renge


----------



## nutmeg (Dec 1, 2016)

The brown one after 40 strokes (back and forth) with the nagura and 90 strokes with the knife


Kostenlos Bilder hochladen


----------



## nutmeg (Dec 1, 2016)

with the nagura, link on the picture, 15 strokes with the nagura and 40 strokes with the knife


fotos hochladen


----------



## nutmeg (Dec 1, 2016)

The white one was a bit hard for this time ;-)


----------



## nutmeg (Dec 1, 2016)

nutmeg said:


> with the nagura, link on the picture, 15 strokes with the nagura and 40 strokes with the knife
> 
> 
> fotos hochladen



edit right on the picture


----------



## Smashmasta (Dec 1, 2016)

As much I like the unique colors that my melon green/chartreuse/ aquamarine/ thing my ao renge has got going on, but that pure shiro block of stone with the ao renge is a jewel, nutmeg.


----------



## Krassi (Dec 1, 2016)

That one from Nutmeg looks pretty awesome! but i really love that melon green color! its so unique


----------



## Omega (Dec 1, 2016)

Krassi said:


> Hiho!
> 
> Shiro means white.. kuro is black and
> Ao is decribed as "ultramarine blue" but it looks black
> ...



That.. was quite possibly one of the best break-downs of the different terms used with Natural Stones that I've seen. I've been reading different wikis and articles, but something just *clicked* with that post. Thank you so much!


----------



## Krakorak (Dec 2, 2016)

Smashmasta said:


> As much I like the unique colors that my melon green/chartreuse/ aquamarine/ thing my ao renge has got going on, but that pure shiro block of stone with the ao renge is a jewel, nutmeg.



I believe that whitish colour is due to the flattening of the stone, at least in mine the surface has changed the colour from yellowish to whitish after I flatenned the stone - compare the most photos here with the last one which shows the current condition: http://rhamphorhynchus.rajce.idnes.cz/Ohirayama_Ao_renge_suita_from_Shinichi_Watanabe/

By the way - I discussed some things regarding the Ao renge with Shinichi last days and today he wrote me, among others "One more thing...
Ao renge is moving color to green after keeping long time. It is from Sulphur." So probably the yellowish-greenish tones on the Ao renge are due to the long stocking of the stones...and one can expect lighter - whitish - tones when using it regularly...and if flattening it particularly..


----------



## Krassi (Dec 2, 2016)

hi!

@Omega 
THANKS! i did a small J-nat faq in german language here http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/399/kleines-naturstein-faq

but lets see what google translate makes out of it 
*https://translate.google.com/transl...399/kleines-naturstein-faq&edit-text=&act=url*

well seems to be ok  .. i am amazed because english/japanese translations are always weird 
i hope this will help even more ! 

If the link is not ok, then please remove it and i can copy/paste it in a new post here.
its still work in progress .

best regards, Daniel


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Dec 2, 2016)

Good stuff Daniel, I can see why stones with outboard engines would be more expensive. LOL

The stone has so Gedöns as karasu (spots), kiita, outboard engine and shines in the dark blue = then is directly more expensive!


----------



## Krassi (Dec 2, 2016)

@mucho bocho 
Thanks. i did that yesterday during work and tried to make it as clear as possible.
"Gedöns" means "stuff" by the way.

but thats often the only reason why stone A is much more expensive than stone B..
All that Renge descriptions is also confusing until you know that they only describe the stone better.

So i hope this helps some people!

Seeya Daniel


----------



## fatboylim (Dec 2, 2016)

Damn good review Smashmaster. A tricky question for you, are they better than the Belgian stone you just received? How are they different between the three of them?


----------



## Smashmasta (Dec 2, 2016)

Krakorak said:


> I believe that whitish colour is due to the flattening of the stone, at least in mine the surface has changed the colour from yellowish to whitish after I flatenned the stone - compare the most photos here with the last one which shows the current condition: http://rhamphorhynchus.rajce.idnes.cz/Ohirayama_Ao_renge_suita_from_Shinichi_Watanabe/
> 
> By the way - I discussed some things regarding the Ao renge with Shinichi last days and today he wrote me, among others "One more thing...
> Ao renge is moving color to green after keeping long time. It is from Sulphur." So probably the yellowish-greenish tones on the Ao renge are due to the long stocking of the stones...and one can expect lighter - whitish - tones when using it regularly...and if flattening it particularly..



Great detective work, Krakorak :detective: 
Perhaps there's some oxidation or something going on over time on the cutting surface that turns it more yellow. The sulfur comment makes sense with the (very) little I can remember from chemistry that sulfur had that unique color. A quick search online of sulfur also shows that the color is very similar. Reading a quick bit about sulfur formation, it is sometimes created from volcanic sulfurous hot springs. This makes sense given the info we know about the formation of the Tambic terrane that composes much of Honshu, and thus the source of many Jnats (see Alex Gilmore's blog for more detailed info, here) Good thing it doesn't smell! Very cool.


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Dec 2, 2016)

This BBC documentary on Sulfur mining has been etched in my mind since first viewing. Sulfur is definately yellow. 

The workers have trapeziuses muscles that become deformed overtime due to the heavy loads they carry. Remember this video next time you bitchin about your job. 

[video=youtube;8UBk8f7Bgj0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UBk8f7Bgj0[/video]


----------



## Smashmasta (Dec 2, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> This BBC documentary on Sulfur mining has been etched in my mind since first viewing. Sulfur is definately yellow.
> 
> The workers have trapeziuses muscles that become deformed overtime due to the heavy loads they carry. Remember this video next time you bitchin about your job.
> 
> [video=youtube;8UBk8f7Bgj0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UBk8f7Bgj0[/video]




Wow... Here I am trying to convince myself to go for a run, and losing the battle with myself... 

Makes you wonder about the difficulty of mining for Jnats. I doubt there was ever any such gaseous hazards, but like the narrator said, "the life of miners has always been hard," so who knows. I bet there is some info on Alex's blog. Can you imagine carry 24 type 24s out of the mountain?! No wonder Tsuchihashi charges so much for his Maruoyama stones...


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Dec 2, 2016)

My Ao Renge Suita had an area (almost like a pocket a couple mm deep in the side which was partially removed) that was notably more yellowish than the rest of the stone. Now that it's lacquered over it is not as visible. I was also reading that Ao/Kuro Renge are caused by sulphur and this can discolor some steels


----------



## Smashmasta (Dec 2, 2016)

tjangula said:


> My Ao Renge Suita had an area (almost like a pocket a couple mm deep in the side which was partially removed) that was notably more yellowish than the rest of the stone. Now that it's lacquered over it is not as visible. I was also reading that Ao/Kuro Renge are caused by sulphur and this can discolor some steels



I've heard this before about steel discoloration before, but I've never seen it happen, nor pictures of it. Has this happened to you, or is this speculation? I don't mean to sound overly skeptical, but I've only read it and never seen anyone show the actual effects IRL. Thanks.


----------



## Smashmasta (Dec 2, 2016)

fatboylim said:


> Damn good review Smashmaster. A tricky question for you, are they better than the Belgian stone you just received? How are they different between the three of them?



Thanks. They're very different. The La Veinette I reviewed is much softer, it feels creamy, and works up a slurry much faster. It's waaay more approachable than both the ohiras. If you're debating between the 3, get the Veinette as it's way easier to get results. I'd get a Aka renge ohira after that. Mine is slightly softer than the Ao, and harder stones tend to be more difficult to obtain results as you have to be very consistent with your angles and pressure, but the results are generally much more acute. I like them all, but if I could get them all over again, I'd get the La Veinette, Aka renge, than Ao renge. The differences between the Aka and Ao aren't as discernible than between the Veinette and the Aka renge. Hope this helps.


----------



## Krakorak (Dec 2, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> This BBC documentary on Sulfur mining has been etched in my mind since first viewing. Sulfur is definately yellow.
> 
> The workers have trapeziuses muscles that become deformed overtime due to the heavy loads they carry. Remember this video next time you bitchin about your job.
> 
> [video=youtube;8UBk8f7Bgj0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UBk8f7Bgj0[/video]



Yeah, I have also seen such a document about those miners from the Kawah Ijen lake when I was maybe 14 or 15...and can remember it very well since that as well..its quite impressive..


----------



## Krakorak (Dec 2, 2016)

Smashmasta said:


> I've heard this before about steel discoloration before, but I've never seen it happen, nor pictures of it. Has this happened to you, or is this speculation? I don't mean to sound overly skeptical, but I've only read it and never seen anyone show the actual effects IRL. Thanks.



Hmmm, something like that happened with my Itinomonn when I left it unwiped/unwashed for a longer time...Normaly, with other stones, something like that has never hapenned (neither the core stell nor tha cladding are somehow especially reactive in that knife) before with other stones when leaving the stone for a somparatively long time without washing/wiping, but here a little bit rusty-like film has been created...I have also read somewhere here on KKF that one has to be more careful about rust when using these Ao/Kuro renge stones due to the sulphur...even asked Shinichi about this yesterday and he confirmed that and even wrote that "Yes, correct. In this result, Kyoto natural association doesn't accept to putting their stamp on these two stones below."

By the way, he also drew my attention to the "hardening effect" - see here: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/wetstone6.htm

What's your experience with that? He mentioned it already earlier during our communication, but I forgot it in the meantime...but after he mentioned it again now, I could remember that the blade feeled in one moment really, really hot...I didn't pay much attention to it...but should maybe...

By the way, he added: Ao rengre is miracle stone.
But well known as forbidden stone.

No idea why forbidden, asked about that (maybe due to the sulphur problems?!), but miracle might be right..


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Dec 2, 2016)

Smashmasta said:


> I've heard this before about steel discoloration before, but I've never seen it happen, nor pictures of it. Has this happened to you, or is this speculation? I don't mean to sound overly skeptical, but I've only read it and never seen anyone show the actual effects IRL. Thanks.





Krakorak said:


> Hmmm, something like that happened with my Itinomonn when I left it unwiped/unwashed for a longer time...Normaly, with other stones, something like that has never hapenned (neither the core stell nor tha cladding are somehow especially reactive in that knife) before with other stones when leaving the stone for a somparatively long time without washing/wiping, but here a little bit rusty-like film has been created...I have also read somewhere here on KKF that one has to be more careful about rust when using these Ao/Kuro renge stones due to the sulphur...even asked Shinichi about this yesterday and he confirmed that and even wrote that "Yes, correct. In this result, Kyoto natural association doesn't accept to putting their stamp on these two stones below."
> 
> By the way, he also drew my attention to the "hardening effect" - see here: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/wetstone6.htm
> 
> ...



I had read about at tomo nagura and also Watanabe's page. It's been awhile but I also recall the potential for an effect similar to etching but at a lesser scale.


----------



## Smashmasta (Dec 2, 2016)

Krakorak said:


> Hmmm, something like that happened with my Itinomonn when I left it unwiped/unwashed for a longer time...Normaly, with other stones, something like that has never hapenned (neither the core stell nor tha cladding are somehow especially reactive in that knife) before with other stones when leaving the stone for a somparatively long time without washing/wiping, but here a little bit rusty-like film has been created...I have also read somewhere here on KKF that one has to be more careful about rust when using these Ao/Kuro renge stones due to the sulphur...even asked Shinichi about this yesterday and he confirmed that and even wrote that "Yes, correct. In this result, Kyoto natural association doesn't accept to putting their stamp on these two stones below."
> 
> By the way, he also drew my attention to the "hardening effect" - see here: http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/wetstone6.htm
> 
> ...



I personally haven't had any encounter with this 'hardening effect'. Very, very rarely have my blades gotten hot, much more like warm, and that was probably when I wasn't using enough water. I'd be interested to learn more about this. Again, not trying to be an annoying skeptic, but I'm not sure what a bit of heat will do to the steel in a beneficial way that can be discerned. I doubt it's anywhere near a de-tempering temperature (I don't know what such a temp would be, though, and I would imagine that it depends on the type of steel, too), so I don't think some heat would be bad, I just don't know why it could be good, though.


----------



## Smashmasta (Dec 2, 2016)

tjangula said:


> I had read about at tomo nagura and also Watanabe's page. It's been awhile but I also recall the potential for an effect similar to etching but at a lesser scale.



I read that on tomonagura too, but haven't heard anything about it in actuality beyond that, and now Shinichi's comment. Could totally be a possibility, but it seems to be a rare occurrence, if it happens at all. I know very, very little about chemistry, so I can't even say about this in a theoretical context. Well, if anyone has had this happen, or has it happen to them, show us or take a pic so we can see!


----------



## Krassi (Dec 2, 2016)

OH Dang! as you mention it i also heard about that Ao renge effect more than a year ago from posts from sharpchef but actually cant confirm it with my ohira ao ... i interestingly also got a okudo ao renge koppa but with both i havent had anything like that..but of course interesting! 

About the hardening effect.. puhh i got a ohira uchigumori (shinichi said its genuine but risky because of all the lines and inclusions) but its interesting to observe the effect on the polished blades..
for me it leaves a teflon like polishing effect if i use its slurry on the sides of my knifes that decreases the resistance from cutting.

well i bought lots of stuff but never had the time to try it all. but with all the stuff its time to get me a poketmicroscope and check "what all those bricks do" 

seeya, daniel!


----------



## Matus (Dec 3, 2016)

Krakorak, some really interesting information, thank you. Now I understand why your Shiro Suita Aka Renge lost some of the yellow tint after flattening. At first I thought that I somehow contaminated the stone surface with a dirty flattening plate.


----------



## fatboylim (Dec 4, 2016)

Smashmasta said:


> Thanks. They're very different. The La Veinette I reviewed is much softer, it feels creamy, and works up a slurry much faster. It's waaay more approachable than both the ohiras. If you're debating between the 3, get the Veinette as it's way easier to get results. I'd get a Aka renge ohira after that. Mine is slightly softer than the Ao, and harder stones tend to be more difficult to obtain results as you have to be very consistent with your angles and pressure, but the results are generally much more acute. I like them all, but if I could get them all over again, I'd get the La Veinette, Aka renge, than Ao renge. The differences between the Aka and Ao aren't as discernible than between the Veinette and the Aka renge. Hope this helps.


That is exactly what I need help with. Thanks again Smash!


----------

