# Steel 52100 knives and knifemakers



## GRoc (Aug 23, 2016)

Hi all,

I have been slowly looking for my next knife acquisition. I am looking for a gyuto, 240-270mm, mid thickness on the spine and fairly thin on the edge.
So far one of the alloys that I have not tried is 52100. Is this type of steel a good one for gyuto, general purpose applications?
I own several carbon blades, caring and dealing with reactivity is not an issue. My sharpening game is also improving steadily. 

Who would be a nice vendor/craftsman for 52100 kitchen knives? What is the HRC that it performs the best? Edge taking but not too brittle.
Are there honyaki (differentially treated) 52100 blades out there? If not why? 

Thank you for your insights

G :biggrin:


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 23, 2016)

GRoc said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have been slowly looking for my next knife acquisition. I am looking for a gyuto, 240-270mm, mid thickness on the spine and fairly thin on the edge.
> So far one of the alloys that I have not tried is 52100. Is this type of steel a good one for gyuto, general purpose applications?
> ...



Some artisans to investigate:

Bill Burke (also sold by The Epicurean Edge)
Ian Rogers (Haburn Knives)
Shehan Prull (Shihan Fine Knives, also sold by Japanese Knife Imports as Ginrei)
Marko Tsourkan (Tsourkan Knives)
Michael Rader (http://www.raderblade.com)


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## LucasFur (Aug 23, 2016)

few of the knives i also know come in 52100 

1. Zkramers 
2. Ginrei ( there is a 240mm in the BST section now) 
3. Billipp - if you can find one, but you'll need deep pockets and patience. 

52100 is regarded as among the best carbons. Odd that its so often used by american makers but almost never used by Japanese makers. Guess its the cost of shipping.


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 23, 2016)

LucasFur said:


> 52100 is regarded as among the best carbons. Odd that its so often used by american makers but almost never used by Japanese makers. Guess its the cost of shipping.



Furbie, There are lots of great carbon steels equal to or better 52100.


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## GRoc (Aug 23, 2016)

Thank you for the responses gentlemen! Really appreciated! Man, some of these get into 4-digit territory... I'd better start boosting the "knife savings account" ! LOL





Mucho Bocho said:


> Furbie, There are lots of great carbon steels equal to or better 52100.



Which ones would be better than 52100 and by which maker M.B. ? Which one would be/is your dream carbon steel?


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## zetieum (Aug 23, 2016)

Shaun Fernandez (aka knifeFanatic). He works with CTG. I do not know his work personally, but he only uses 52100 and his knife looks very nice.


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## daveb (Aug 23, 2016)

Dancing on the edge Z.


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## ThEoRy (Aug 23, 2016)

Wait. Let me get my popcorn...








OK proceed.


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## LucasFur (Aug 23, 2016)

Mr. Mucho. -- I am really curious to steels that are by far and away better.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 23, 2016)

GRoc said:


> Thank you for the responses gentlemen! Really appreciated! Man, some of these get into 4-digit territory... I'd better start boosting the "knife savings account" ! LOL
> 
> Which ones would be better than 52100 and by which maker M.B. ? Which one would be/is your dream carbon steel?



If you are open to other carbon steels than 52100, you might want to get on Mert Tansu's list. Mert is a full-time chef and part-time knife maker in Australia. He uses various carbon steels in both monosteel and san mai.

Will Catcheside in England is making forged san mai knives with 1.2442 as the core that are excellent performers.


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## chinacats (Aug 23, 2016)

Does anybody like the feel of 52100 on stones? Likely my least favorite carbon so far for just that reason.


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## ThEoRy (Aug 23, 2016)

LucasFur said:


> Mr. Mucho. -- I am really curious to steels that are by far and away better.



I don't think it's really about the steel themselves generally. Depending upon the maker, heat treatment has a lot more to do with steel performance.


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## daveb (Aug 23, 2016)

I'm not a carbon guy, only a couple. Always interesting to see a discussion of the merits of various steel formulations.

Were I looking for a heirloom carbon today I would look towards Georgia and a knife made from an axle of a 63 VW, the leaf spring of a John Deere or maybe the hatch of a submarine...


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## toddnmd (Aug 23, 2016)

daveb said:


> Were I looking for a heirloom carbon today I would look towards Georgia and a knife made from an axle of a 63 VW, the leaf spring of a John Deere. or maybe the hatch of a submarine...



In other words, Bloodroot. But you've got to have the patience to wait 40-something months, or get lucky with their monthly sales (which are done by lottery to win the chance to purchase).


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## jgraeff (Aug 24, 2016)

Bloodroot has made 52100 knives with an excellent heat treat. The waiting list is long but you won't regret it.

Marko also makes one of the best 52100 blades. 

I've used others but the heat treats were not very good.


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## toddnmd (Aug 24, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Furbie, There are lots of great carbon steels equal to or better 52100.



Mucho, I'm still curious to hear some of the steels that you'd rate overall as equal to or better. Not that I think there is any perfect steel. I do remember a few years ago that Devin Thomas rated some popular steels (certainly not exhaustive), and 52100 came out very well. But I'm curious about other carbon steels that anyone out there would rate very highly. And feel free to tie it to particular makers' heat treatment.


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 24, 2016)

Todd, I guess i've come to the conclusion that asking the question "which is the best steel" or a lot like asking "Who are we, where do we come from and where are we going." Meaning, the answer depends on your point of view. If you go from super clean carbon (white) to super clean stainless (Swedish), if HT is done properly, will excel in some applications and do poorly in others. Also, the hardness of the steel will also change how it behaves. More over, 52100 comes in several flavors too. I know that Devin is working with an aerospace 52100 flavor that he said could achieve four times edge stability compared to other 52100 steels. 

I'm a home cook, the qualities I value in my knives/steel are ultra sharpness. thats why most of my knives are in White #1, DT AEBL, Swedish Stainless, ginsanko... and I stay away from Blue, Super Blue, Hap40, ZDP...

It's my understanding that Bob Kramer brought 52100 to the kitchen knife market. When someone buys a Zwilling 52100 Kramer, do they think their getting REAL Bob Kramer 52100 steel? Everybody thought that AEBL was crap do to its low carbon content, till Devin proved everyone wrong. Look at what Will Catcheside does with 1.2442...

So my point is, there is no one steel blend that is BEST at everything. Its the smith that makes the steel what it is, not that the steel is inherently desirable because of its composition.


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## chinacats (Aug 24, 2016)

Mucho Bocho said:


> ...Look at what Will Catcheside does with 1.2442...



This steel is in my mind my favorite carbon steel...though I've not tried Will 's version (I've got a monosteel from Tilman). And I really like V2 and Blue 2...all a bit different but again, imo much better than 52100. For whatever reason, White steel doesn't trip my trigger as much either but at least it feels solid on the stones.


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## toddnmd (Aug 24, 2016)

Part of why I find some of the "best steel" conversations interesting is because they often include other related information that is important. Yep, in the end, it's a matter of opinion, but oftentimes well-informed opinion.

I've generally heard pretty good things about the ZKramer 52100 steel and blades (just issues with wood shrinking on the handles).


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## jonnachang (Aug 24, 2016)

Fowler, Dalman, and Mert Tansu are a few that come to mind. How about Town Cutler? Love 52100 steel!


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## malexthekid (Aug 25, 2016)

My understanding is that Mert learnt his 52100 HT from Bill Burke so you can bet that would be great. I have two knives from him but they are his suminigashi. No idea what core steel they have


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## kevpenbanc (Aug 25, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> My understanding is that Mert learnt his 52100 HT from Bill Burke so you can bet that would be great. I have two knives from him but they are his suminigashi. No idea what core steel they have




If it's like the suminigashi I have from him, then it's the Takefu version of white.

I have a 52100 from him too.
Haven't taken it to the stones yet, hoping to do that this weekend.


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## malexthekid (Aug 25, 2016)

I am gonna take a punt and say it is the same, he only works with the one type I think. And that makes sense... not the greatest edge retention but damn does it get sharp.


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## ynot1985 (Aug 25, 2016)

Speaking of ppl who has trained under Bill Burke, has anyone tried knives made by his daughter Jessica.. I see epicurean edge sometimes has them but am not sure how they are like to use


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## BloodrootLS (Aug 25, 2016)

ynot1985 said:


> Speaking of ppl who has trained under Bill Burke, has anyone tried knives made by his daughter Jessica.. I see epicurean edge sometimes has them but am not sure how they are like to use



I saw her knives at Bladeshow. As you might imagine given who her father is, she knows how to make a good kitchen knife ;-). Some of the best grinds we saw at the show and they were light and balanced. Of course we didn't get to use them though. . .


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## easy13 (Aug 26, 2016)

Moriah Cowles - Orchard Steel . She uses 52100, think on all, definitely the one I have. I have bought and then sold a grip of knives from Non Japanese makers and hers is one of the only I kept. Love that knife, a lot of character, cuts real nice too.


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## hambone.johnson (Aug 26, 2016)

Just got my fish sword from Oatley in 52100. Has some nice layering as he used nickel and iron I believe for the soft steel. Going to put it through the paces on my stones to see if I can get some nice contrast but it came wicked sharp and the grind is amazing on both the front and back side. He uses 52100 often so I anticipate good things.


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## Lazarus (Aug 26, 2016)

ynot1985 said:


> Speaking of ppl who has trained under Bill Burke, has anyone tried knives made by his daughter Jessica.. I see epicurean edge sometimes has them but am not sure how they are like to use



I actually have her little 5" slicer, it's wonderfully balanced, cut's like a dream. I would rock a full western chef's knife in her style in a heartbeat.


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## psfred (Aug 26, 2016)

One of my "if I live long enough" projects is to make some knives, and since my brother has access to a forge, probably let him forge me one out of 52100.

this stuff is really quite common -- the other name for it is "bearing steel" and you have some of it in your car, on all four wheels. Very wear resistant, and very hard and tough.

It's also not easy to forge, it requires yellow heat or it won't move, and it's hard enough it won't work cold at all, so not many people work with it, I think.

I've seen some "test to destruction" videos of knives made from it, and it's VERY tough. Being carbon, it should also take a screaming edge, although I've no idea what kind of edge retention it would have. I'd guess fairly good, but that's a guess.

As always, heat treatment is key to a good knife, and if I make one it will go to a professional (I have a co-worker who makes knives, he now sends all of his out, it's cheaper and he gets excellent results). 

If I get really froggy someday I may try a commercially made one.

I would expect it to be difficult to sharpen or thin, though.....

Peter


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## kevpenbanc (Aug 26, 2016)

hambone.johnson said:


> Just got my fish sword from Oatley in 52100. Has some nice layering as he used nickel and iron I believe for the soft steel. Going to put it through the paces on my stones to see if I can get some nice contrast but it came wicked sharp and the grind is amazing on both the front and back side. He uses 52100 often so I anticipate good things.



Pics pleese.


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## hambone.johnson (Aug 29, 2016)

kevpenbanc said:


> Pics pleese.



Let's hope my photo bucket link skills work out. Let me know if I goofed it up. Backside is hardest part to photograph. 

http://s991.photobucket.com/user/chef_thames/library/Oatley 52100

After a weekend of use and a sharpening session through my stones I'm still as in love as I was when I opened the package. The grind is just amazing. The backside is super convex and really helps with food release and sharpening. Blade road is very flat, there is a problem spot on the heel but that was discussed before purchase and it's not on an often used spot so I dont mind. The 52100 has wonderful heat treat and takes a super keen edge, the edge feels very much like a brand new super thin DT ITK, just like there isn't anything there at the very edge. The handle is huge but it feels good with a blade of this length and weight. I didn't feel any sticky feeling on the stones. I've got another spot with Oatley lined up for next year and I want something else with his single bevel grind, I'm really impressed.


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## kevpenbanc (Aug 29, 2016)

Thanks for the pics.
&#128515;&#128077;




hambone.johnson said:


> Let's hope my photo bucket link skills work out. Let me know if I goofed it up. Backside is hardest part to photograph.
> 
> http://s991.photobucket.com/user/chef_thames/library/Oatley 52100
> 
> After a weekend of use and a sharpening session through my stones I'm still as in love as I was when I opened the package. The grind is just amazing. The backside is super convex and really helps with food release and sharpening. Blade road is very flat, there is a problem spot on the heel but that was discussed before purchase and it's not on an often used spot so I dont mind. The 52100 has wonderful heat treat and takes a super keen edge, the edge feels very much like a brand new super thin DT ITK, just like there isn't anything there at the very edge. The handle is huge but it feels good with a blade of this length and weight. I didn't feel any sticky feeling on the stones. I've got another spot with Oatley lined up for next year and I want something else with his single bevel grind, I'm really impressed.


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## hambone.johnson (Aug 29, 2016)

kevpenbanc said:


> Thanks for the pics.
> [emoji2][emoji106]



NP. The Aussies really like their 52100. I got no complaints on my end.


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## DanHumphrey (Aug 29, 2016)

How's the reactivity of the steel? I know it has a small amount of Cr and seem to remember reading it being a bit less reactive than others, but can't find that statement now.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 29, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> How's the reactivity of the steel? I know it has a small amount of Cr and seem to remember reading it being a bit less reactive than others, but can't find that statement now.



In my experience 52100 is less reactive than aogami and quite a bit less reactive than shirogami. This is based on 52100 knives from Mert, Devin, Marko, Fowler and the ZKramers, compared to monosteel shirogami from Masamoto (the KS) and the exposed core on several other knives.


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## hambone.johnson (Aug 29, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> How's the reactivity of the steel? I know it has a small amount of Cr and seem to remember reading it being a bit less reactive than others, but can't find that statement now.



Compared to the 2 blue#2 knives that I own, the 52100 has taken not much visible patina. 

My aritsugu mukimono has an awesome patina from doing a batch of garlic and ginger brunoise for an Asian fridge sauce I keep on hand for noodles. 

The 240 monzabaru line suji that I keep for my station develops a nice blue too but not like the muki. 

I have done only raw fish on the 52100 and then today at home I did about 3 tablespoons brunoise ginger for comparison and received no patina on the blade as a result of either products. I'm going to do some brunoise garlic and onion for dinner tonight to see what happens 

I've never had issues with food degradation due to reactivity of HC knives.


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## kevpenbanc (Aug 29, 2016)

I have a 52100 monosteel from Mert, and its's really not very reactive at all. It takes a while to build up a fairly subtle patina.




DanHumphrey said:


> How's the reactivity of the steel? I know it has a small amount of Cr and seem to remember reading it being a bit less reactive than others, but can't find that statement now.


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## DanHumphrey (Aug 30, 2016)

Thanks all. I've been super frustrated with the reactivity of the cladding on my B2 Tanaka, which is just soft iron. The monosteel simple carbon knives I used growing up were nothing like it; nevermind "wipe it off after use"; this thing will go brown while I'm still cutting an onion. I swore off iron-clad knives.

Then I went and got a new Forgecraft off BST. Ah well, I'll use it for anything but onions. But at least this means Ginrei will work for me, if I ever decide to spring for that level.


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## GRoc (Aug 30, 2016)

hambone.johnson said:


> Let's hope my photo bucket link skills work out. Let me know if I goofed it up. Backside is hardest part to photograph.
> 
> http://s991.photobucket.com/user/chef_thames/library/Oatley 52100
> 
> After a weekend of use and a sharpening session through my stones I'm still as in love as I was when I opened the package. The grind is just amazing. The backside is super convex and really helps with food release and sharpening. Blade road is very flat, there is a problem spot on the heel but that was discussed before purchase and it's not on an often used spot so I dont mind. The 52100 has wonderful heat treat and takes a super keen edge, the edge feels very much like a brand new super thin DT ITK, just like there isn't anything there at the very edge. The handle is huge but it feels good with a blade of this length and weight. I didn't feel any sticky feeling on the stones. I've got another spot with Oatley lined up for next year and I want something else with his single bevel grind, I'm really impressed.




That's a seriously awesome knife!!! Congrats and mad props to the maker for it! One more great maker to start saving for...


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## hambone.johnson (Aug 30, 2016)

GRoc said:


> That's a seriously awesome knife!!! Congrats and mad props to the maker for it! One more great maker to start saving for...



Thanks GRoc. It's pretty awesome. Little money in the piggy bank each month for me. Only one grand purchase a year. [emoji106][emoji106]


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## labor of love (Apr 17, 2017)

Cool thread, I know I'm late to the party but I don't think I've tried 52100 yet. Outside of ginrei (which I like the looks of)and z Kramer, what are some other 52100 knives that can be had off the shelf? Or at the very least without a 6 month waitlist?


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## labor of love (Apr 17, 2017)

Mucho I find interesting that you find you can achieve ultra sharpness with Swedish stainless and ginsanko over AS. Do you still feel that way?



Mucho Bocho said:


> Todd, I guess i've come to the conclusion that asking the question "which is the best steel" or a lot like asking "Who are we, where do we come from and where are we going." Meaning, the answer depends on your point of view. If you go from super clean carbon (white) to super clean stainless (Swedish), if HT is done properly, will excel in some applications and do poorly in others. Also, the hardness of the steel will also change how it behaves. More over, 52100 comes in several flavors too. I know that Devin is working with an aerospace 52100 flavor that he said could achieve four times edge stability compared to other 52100 steels.
> 
> I'm a home cook, the qualities I value in my knives/steel are ultra sharpness. thats why most of my knives are in White #1, DT AEBL, Swedish Stainless, ginsanko... and I stay away from Blue, Super Blue, Hap40, ZDP...
> 
> ...


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 17, 2017)

I do. I think Swedish stainless was designed for surgical tools. AEBL is as fine


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## labor of love (Apr 17, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> I do. I think Swedish stainless was designed for surgical tools. AEBL is as fine



I haven't used Swedish stainless in several years but I love ginsanko, do you notice much distinction in edge taking, sharpness and retention?


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## Nemo (Apr 18, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> I do. I think Swedish stainless was designed for surgical tools. AEBL is as fine



Interesting. The only blades that I've ever seen in a general operating theatre are labelled "Carbon steel". Didn't specify which steel in particular though. I think that some of the ophthalmology micro blades have an obsidian edge to allow a very acute edge.


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## labor of love (Apr 18, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Interesting. The only blades that I've ever seen in a general operating theatre are labelled "Carbon steel". Didn't specify which steel in particular though. I think that some of the ophthalmology micro blades have an obsidian edge to allow a very acute edge.



I know nothing about the subject but I would be pretty surprised if carbon was used in major surgeries.


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## Nemo (Apr 18, 2017)

They are all disposable blades. They sometimes get changed a number of times during an operation. In many operations, the scalpel is used only to incise the skin. Most operative dissection is "blunt dissection", performed with an artery forcep ("hemostat" in USA) or the outside blunt face of dissecting scissors. This minimises the risk of accidentally cutting something important. Electrocautery (diathermy) is used for most other dissection, and scissors are used more often for sharp dissection. I suspect that reusable forceps and scissors are stainless, otherwise repeated cycles of exposure to blood and high temperature and pressure autoclave sterilization would make them rust. Single use/ disposable ones may not be. Some disposable forceps are labelled "single use dp3250b". I assume that this refers to SAE 3250, but am not 100% sure.

Whilst we don't do cardiac or neurosurgery here, we do pretty much everything else, including a lot of stuff that would be considered "major" and as far as I know, all of our different disposable blades are labelled "carbon steel" on the packet. I'll have a look at a blade itself next time I'm in to see if it specifies the exact steel used.


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## Badgertooth (Apr 18, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Cool thread, I know I'm late to the party but I don't think I've tried 52100 yet. Outside of ginrei (which I like the looks of)and z Kramer, what are some other 52100 knives that can be had off the shelf? Or at the very least without a 6 month waitlist?



Just putting it out there as my turn on his is next but there's a fella in Aus called Robert Trimarchi (The Nine) who is making some nice looking (to me at least) knives in 52100. @Preizzo knife tastes run very similarly to mine and he loves his.


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## labor of love (Apr 18, 2017)

Thanks. I like what I see.




Badgertooth said:


> Just putting it out there as my turn on his is next but there's a fella in Aus called Robert Trimarchi (The Nine) who is making some nice looking (to me at least) knives in 52100. @Preizzo knife tastes run very similarly to mine and he loves his.


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## Doug (Apr 18, 2017)

Looks like San Mai. Don't believe I've seen San mai 52100 before.


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## Badgertooth (Apr 18, 2017)

Yup. Wrought iron from wagon wheel hubs and stuff. Though I believe he also does mono and can clad in non salvage mild skins


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## labor of love (Apr 18, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> Yup. Wrought iron from wagon wheel hubs and stuff. Though I believe he also does mono and can clad in non salvage mild skins



Yep. Mono 52100 and 0-1. Forged or stock removal. I already emailed him.


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## jonnachang (Apr 18, 2017)

Carter Hopkins is doing 52100 stock ground blades in North Carolina under C II Bladeworks.


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## Eric (Apr 18, 2017)

Bill Burke, who literally defined the best heat treatment of this steel, and who is an abs master smith, a true artist, and a fine human being.


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## CB1968 (Apr 19, 2017)

Eric said:


> Bill Burke, who literally defined the best heat treatment of this steel, and who is an abs master smith, a true artist, and a fine human being.



Yep Bills HT of 52100 is amazing in every way.


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## hambone.johnson (Apr 19, 2017)

Eric said:


> Bill Burke, who literally defined the best heat treatment of this steel, and who is an abs master smith, a true artist, and a fine human being.



All true statements but should be added that wait time is "undefined" at this point. Good thing I'm young enough and patient, to still have hope.


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## malexthekid (Apr 19, 2017)

Mert Tansu of Tansu Knives learnt his 52100 HT from Bill Burke. I haven't tried it yet but have a boning knife from him near completion so can report back when its done. Or check out the passaround thread in his vendor sub forum. That is a 52100 blade of his.


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## Mucho Bocho (Apr 19, 2017)

Eric said:


> Bill Burke, who literally defined the best heat treatment of this steel.



What are you in sales?


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## cheflarge (Apr 19, 2017)

MertTansu absolutely makes some of the finest 52100 blades available, whether, honyaki, san mai mono steel, whatever. I own a gyuto and have tried several others and his work is second to none.

Pretty damn great guy, as well. :cool2:


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## frog13 (Apr 19, 2017)

jonnachang said:


> Carter Hopkins is doing 52100 stock ground blades in North Carolina under C II Bladeworks.


I have one of Carter Hopkin's blades, I am really impressed. His wood work on handles is also amazing, he rehandled my TF for me.


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