# Difference between White #1, White #2, Blue #1, Blue #2?



## sac36555 (Dec 3, 2017)

Ive been researching and researching and got a Stainless Gyuto as my first J-knife. That being said, while researching I noticed several different steels and wanted to learn the differences between white #1, white #2, blue#1, and blue#2? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each one? Ive already started looking into buying another knife and was looking at one of these steels with Stainless cladding for ease of maintenance. Any help and knowledge would be great! Im hooked on these J-knoves!


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## HRC_64 (Dec 3, 2017)

here are the cliff-notes;
hit up search for discussion


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## Pensacola Tiger (Dec 3, 2017)

And now the non-technical answer, courtesy of Jon Broida of JKI.



> Hitachi makes a number of carbon steels. Here are the common ones found in knives.
> 
> SK Steels (sk5, sk4, sk3)- the least expensive of the carbon steels and the lowest carbon content (#5 has the least carbon, #3 the most). This steel has higher amounts of phosphorus and sulfur than the other steels i'm about to mention. This steel tends to be tough (due to the lower carbon content and thus lower hardness). It also tends to be more reactive.
> 
> ...



And I'm having a serious case of déjà vu. Refer to this thread:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/34791-Why-two-variations-of-White-Steel


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## StonedEdge (Dec 3, 2017)

Not this again....


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## chinacats (Dec 3, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Not this again....



Happens quite often as the site is not so easy to search. I'd suggest the op use a Google search like this...

Site:kitchenknifeforums.com search term


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## Matus (Dec 3, 2017)

chinacats said:


> Happens quite often as the site is not so easy to search. I'd suggest the op use a Google search like this...
> 
> Site:kitchenknifeforums.com search term



That is pretty much the only way I search KKF. A small disadvantage is, that google does not offer to sort the results according to time (as the most probably can not do it).


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## sac36555 (Dec 3, 2017)

Thanks for the info! I realize this is probably posted about all the time, but its so difficult to search on this forum.


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## Timthebeaver (Dec 3, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Not this again....



+1


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## daveb (Dec 3, 2017)

What's typically left unsaid in these discussions is that almost all normies and probably most regulars here would not be able to tell which steel a knife was made of based on use or sharpening. Only after being told could they wax poetic about the virtues of said knife.

:running::running::running:


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## supersayan3 (Dec 3, 2017)

All carbons sharpen very easy and take amazing edge.
With white 1 being by small account first.
The main difference is that a blue steel blade will last longer than a white one.
Due to sharpening issues.
The blue 1 will last longer and become sharper than the blue 2.
The white 1 has the potential to become sharper than white 2 and they will last the same.
What stainless knife did you get?


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## hmansion (Dec 3, 2017)

daveb said:


> What's typically left unsaid in these discussions is that almost all normies and probably most regulars here would not be able to tell which steel a knife was made of based on use or sharpening. Only after being told could they wax poetic about the virtues of said knife.
> 
> :running::running::running:



+1

Even if a topic is frequently inquired upon, each thread of replies brings its own interesting nuances. I still appreciate hearing the insights of edge retention vs sharpness vs ... though, as a home cook, there is minimal practical difference...


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## labor of love (Dec 3, 2017)

daveb said:


> What's typically left unsaid in these discussions is that almost all normies and probably most regulars here would not be able to tell which steel a knife was made of based on use or sharpening. Only after being told could they wax poetic about the virtues of said knife.
> 
> :running::running::running:



Ill buy that for a dollar. I find myself saying  so and so does a great job with blue2, so and so does a great job with AS and so and so does a great job with wh2.
Steel type is important, but finding a bladesmiths work that resonates with you is equally important.


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## TheCaptain (Dec 3, 2017)

I'm going to jump in here and respectfully beg to differ from my superiors. I have several knives in white steel. They are an absolute joy to sharpen because that take a wicked edge even from a newbie.

Now I have some in blue steel as well. While they are enjoyable as well, the stone nut in me does notice they don't need as much attention as my whites. Mostly Watanabe, and maybe he's a wizard with the heat treatment, but I seldom need to touch up his knives even though they get the most use.


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## hmansion (Dec 3, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Ill buy that for a dollar. I find myself saying  so and so does a great job with blue2, so and so does a great job with AS and so and so does a great job with wh2.
> Steel type is important, but finding a bladesmiths work that resonates with you is equally important.



Another +1

I generally reach for a Masamoto KS white #2 gyuto - sharp, and easy to keep that way. But a Watanabe blue #2 is a superlative experience. However, I think its less the steel and more the skill of Shinichi - he is truly a master at tip to heel consistent sharpening. As Ive posted before, Ive never had a more impressive edge OOTB.


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## HRC_64 (Dec 3, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Now I have some in blue steel as well. While they are enjoyable as well, the stone nut in me does notice they don't need as much attention as my whites.



This is the OEM spe-rec for Yasuki steels: Note the recommended steels for "kitchen knife".




> YSS Recommended Tool Steels
> 
> YSS Symbol	Features / Applications
> 
> ...


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## labor of love (Dec 3, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> I'm going to jump in here and respectfully beg to differ from my superiors. I have several knives in white steel. They are an absolute joy to sharpen because that take a wicked edge even from a newbie.
> 
> Now I have some in blue steel as well. While they are enjoyable as well, the stone nut in me does notice they don't need as much attention as my whites. Mostly Watanabe, and maybe he's a wizard with the heat treatment, but I seldom need to touch up his knives even though they get the most use.



Yes. Watanabe edge retention is crazy. Takeda too. Fujiwara too(as vendors tell me) even though the steel is wh1. But Ive also used Blue2 stuff that leaned towards quick sharpening and toughness (shiraki comes to mind). And also wh2 stuff that takes a little longer on the stones but with better retention(ittetsu comes to mind).


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## Marcelo Amaral (Dec 3, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Yes. Watanabe edge retention is crazy. Takeda too. Fujiwara too(as vendors tell me) even though the steel is wh1. But Ive also used Blue2 stuff that leaned towards quick sharpening and toughness (shiraki comes to mind). And also wh2 stuff that takes a little longer on the stones but with better retention(ittetsu comes to mind).



+1. Watanabe and Takeda's retention are amazing, although Watanabe's Blue #2 pro's sharpen quicker than Takeda, specially on jnats. Recently, i've got two Mario Ingoglia honyaki gyutos in W2 that refuse to loose sharpness. White #2 Tesshu is the gyuto among mine that looses its sharpness quickest, but it is also so easy to sharpen. Konosuke Fujiyama White #2 takes a bit more to sharpen than Tesshu, but it holds its edge better. Tosho's Konosuke Fujiyama Blue #1 (the one that is 66 Rockwell) was the hardest to sharpen among my carbon.


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## panda (Dec 4, 2017)

for me watanabe blue#2 edge actually last longer than takeda blue super. i am guessing because of the 2 points higher hrc heat treat of watanabe vs differences in steel. regardless, both are annoying to sharpen. which is why i prefer white steel, or iwasaki. white #2 from munetoshi is not like other white steel knives, its harder to sharpen but edge lasts much longer similar to blue steel.

easiest steel to sharpen i have tried was from shigefusa version of iwasaki, that was not my favorite knife however.


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## sac36555 (Dec 4, 2017)

supersayan3 said:


> All carbons sharpen very easy and take amazing edge.
> With white 1 being by small account first.
> The main difference is that a blue steel blade will last longer than a white one.
> Due to sharpening issues.
> ...



Gesshin Uraku


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## scott.livesey (Dec 4, 2017)

daveb said:


> What's typically left unsaid in these discussions is that almost all normies and probably most regulars here would not be able to tell which steel a knife was made of based on use or sharpening. Only after being told could they wax poetic about the virtues of said knife.


on another forum, a double blind test was done of several knives that were as close to identical as possible(same hardness, same grind & edge angle, edge finished on the same grit). only the maker knew the steel and hardness. all the user and test administrator knew was blade 1 or blade 2. literally miles of cardboard was cut before any significant difference was seen between the blades. in my shop, the only way I can tell O1 from O7 from 80CrV2 is that the steel type is engraved on the tang.


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## Valkyrae (Dec 4, 2017)

Doesn't Shinichi say something on his website like... even with every day use, his Pro knives won't need sharpening for 6+ months? I always thought that was an impossible statement... But the praise in this thread makes me wonder how much truth there is.


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## K813zra (Dec 5, 2017)

Valkyrae said:


> Doesn't Shinichi say something on his website like... even with every day use, his Pro knives won't need sharpening for 6+ months? I always thought that was an impossible statement... But the praise in this thread makes me wonder how much truth there is.



I don't know, I have never noticed. What I will say is that I could buy into that as long as the knives were used in a specific way on specific things by a home user who does typical to low volume prep for small family meals. I can sharpen knives for my mother, those with not so great edge retention, and she can use them for months and months and months. They remain usable dull or utility sharp for a very long time but they are still not what I would call sharp. If it stutters even a bit on a an old mushy tomato, the edge is not for me. 

Now, take into respect that even as home cooks some people cook in huge amounts of volume or at least for large families on a regular basis. Now imagine how much a pro must use their knife. I see that edge degrading much quicker than I can comprehend as a home user. Throw in that these knives are probably unlikely to be used in ideal conditions at all times on ideal boards etc. Six months does not seem near as reasonable. 

That is not to say these knives are going to need a thinning and full treatment from 140-8k+ or whatever ones method is because I really couldn't say. However, it seems more logical that a touch up or a few would be in order. Honestly, aside from opening up or repairing a knife, my knives really have never actually needed to go below a 1k even if I took them that far. More to the point I probably could get by on a 2-3k for a year or more and maybe even a higher grit. Again, this is as a home cook who does low volume prep.


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## Eloh (Dec 5, 2017)

sac36555 said:


> Ive been researching and researching and got a Stainless Gyuto as my first J-knife. That being said, while researching I noticed several different steels and wanted to learn the differences between white #1, white #2, blue#1, and blue#2? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each one? Ive already started looking into buying another knife and was looking at one of these steels with Stainless cladding for ease of maintenance. Any help and knowledge would be great! Im hooked on these J-knoves!



you can look up the chemical composition yourself. To keep it simple: White Steels are simple carbon steels, wich are easy to sharpen, blue steels are tool steels wich contain additional tungsten (and V/Cr for AoSuper) for more edge retention. There really is nothing special about them though, expect that most Japanese Knife Makers use steel from Hitachi


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## StonedEdge (Dec 5, 2017)

I can definitely believe that Watanabe's blue steel can remain serviceably sharp for almost half a year if used with care... I have a V2 knife that technically has nowhere near the edge retention of blue but with regular yet non-abusive use (home use) doesn't need sharpening for 3-4 months.


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## HRC_64 (Dec 5, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> I can definitely believe that Watanabe's blue steel can remain serviceably sharp for almost half a year if used with care...



So can a Global (!), but Cutting paper is a meaningless test 
of sharpness. and I believe that was the point Watanabe was making.



> There are many kinds of sharpness test. Cutting paper or shaving a beard is easy for WATANABE BLADE users, you know. You could cut paper easily even for watanabe knife after 2 years of everyday uses without re-sharpening.



ie, an axe can be sharpened to cut paper,
but that doesn't make an axe ... fit to cut sushi 
... like a yanagiba would cut sushi.

to make something "professionally sharp"
you need to start with proper design
and then move on to proper sharpening.



> Why do you think such an ultimate sharpness is important?
> Because Japanese people eat raw food that's cut and served. They aren't baked or stewed but cut. So they must be cut nicely. The fines Japanese cuisine is cut and served. So those who cut are at the top of the pyramid. Whereas in France, those who cut are at the bottom because what is cut will be stewed. In Japan, chefs that cut beautifully with their knives are considered to be the best. Such Japanese aesthetics spread among craftsmen, samurais, and everywhere else. And grindstones were the pillar of it all. Thus, Japan's subtle beauty is sustained entirely by these grindstones. What a star! Please try one!!



not trying to start an argument
just trying to communicate 
a slightly different idea

cheers


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## StonedEdge (Dec 5, 2017)

Except I wasn't talking about cutting any paper. I was talking about months of real but non-abusive home kitchen use. I don't have any recipes that call for julienning paper (I'm not vegan)


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## tripleq (Dec 5, 2017)

Valkyrae said:


> Doesn't Shinichi say something on his website like... even with every day use, his Pro knives won't need sharpening for 6+ months? I always thought that was an impossible statement... But the praise in this thread makes me wonder how much truth there is.



Expectations of edge retention tend to differ quite a bit between makers/chefs, etc. in Japan vs those in Europe and North America. When you go into a professional kitchen in Japan one thing you don't hear is the rapid-fire whacking of the knife's edge against the cutting board that we normally hear in the west. Cuts are generally more careful and precise. A thrust cut that just kisses the board is commonplace. This is to say that the user has the most impact on how a knife retains an edge. Talk about one steel vs another is largely anecdotal. I don't know what compass Shinichi uses when he talks about edge retention but I can tell you first hand that most Japanese nationals I've met who work with knives professionally aren't usually impressed with YouTube-like speed chopping antics often revered here. I'm pretty sure some makers would shudder at the sight of how some of their knives get used.


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## panda (Dec 6, 2017)

i yell at my cooks if they make too much board noise if that tells you anything.


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## labor of love (Dec 6, 2017)

Look how fast I use this knife!-every custom maker on instagram


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## panda (Dec 6, 2017)

labor of love said:


> Look how fast I use this knife!-every custom maker on instagram



:rofl2: yuuppppp and every cktg review video


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## Chicagohawkie (Dec 6, 2017)

To be honest Ive seen any independent lab tests done on any knife makers HRC claims.


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## JaVa (Dec 6, 2017)

I'd agree with Daveb about most not being able to tell most carbon steels from each other in a blind test. And definitely the maker has more to do with the steels characteristics then the steel it self, to a point. 

If I compare a few knives, Wat B2, Ikeda W2, Tanaka B2, Kamo B2 and Wakui W2 steels have very similar qualities, the Tanaka B2 and Ikeda W2 being the closest to each other. Edge taking, feel on the stones, edge retention, the ultimate sharpness are all very close. There are differences, but they are so subtle I could not tell them a part by the steels properties alone without knowing what they are.


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## scott.livesey (Dec 6, 2017)

tripleq said:


> Expectations of edge retention tend to differ quite a bit between makers/chefs, etc. in Japan vs those in Europe and North America. When you go into a professional kitchen in Japan one thing you don't hear is the rapid-fire whacking of the knife's edge against the cutting board that we normally hear in the west. Cuts are generally more careful and precise. A thrust cut that just kisses the board is commonplace. This is to say that the user has the most impact on how a knife retains an edge. Talk about one steel vs another is largely anecdotal. I don't know what compass Shinichi uses when he talks about edge retention but I can tell you first hand that most Japanese nationals I've met who work with knives professionally aren't usually impressed with YouTube-like speed chopping antics often revered here. I'm pretty sure some makers would shudder at the sight of how some of their knives get used.



It was a learning curve in the kitchen getting used to a very thin, very hard, very sharp blade. the fact that i did not need to put a lot of pressure on the blade to cut takes some getting used to. my wife has her own knife, as she isn't happy unless there is a good 'whack' after each cut. if one only cut boneless proteins and soft fruit and vegetables on a decent board with 'proper' technique, 6 months between sharpenings does not sound far fetched. if i need large quantities of finely chopped vegetables, I cheat and use a food processor.


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## K813zra (Dec 6, 2017)

scott.livesey said:


> It was a learning curve in the kitchen getting used to a very thin, very hard, very sharp blade. the fact that i did not need to put a lot of pressure on the blade to cut takes some getting used to. my wife has her own knife, as she isn't happy unless there is a good 'whack' after each cut. if one only cut boneless proteins and soft fruit and vegetables on a decent board with 'proper' technique, 6 months between sharpenings does not sound far fetched. if i need large quantities of finely chopped vegetables, I cheat and use a food processor.



But the food processor is no fun.


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## tripleq (Dec 6, 2017)

K813zra said:


> But the food processor is no fun.



LOL!!!


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## scott.livesey (Dec 6, 2017)

K813zra said:


> But the food processor is no fun.



LOL. but finely dicing 5 pounds of onion, 3 pounds of carrots, and 4 heads of celery is a bit of work. 
I was watching a cooking show last night and one chef cut up onions and such in a quick machine gun chop. the crowd clapped and shouted. I did notice the knife they used had a white NSF handle and was only used for chops like this.


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## StonedEdge (Dec 6, 2017)

Kind of difficult to pull out the culinary robot when you have a nice shiny 240 gyuto lying in wait for that 5lb bag of onions (evil laughter)


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## chinacats (Dec 6, 2017)

FWIW, I seem to be able to tell the difference in blue and white steel while sharpening...my lack of touch/feel makes blue steel easier for me.


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## K813zra (Dec 6, 2017)

scott.livesey said:


> LOL. but finely dicing 5 pounds of onion, 3 pounds of carrots, and 4 heads of celery is a bit of work.
> I was watching a cooking show last night and one chef cut up onions and such in a quick machine gun chop. the crowd clapped and shouted. I did notice the knife they used had a white NSF handle and was only used for chops like this.



I really like cutting stuff up. :doublethumbsup: I would break out half a dozen knives for testing.


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## Nemo (Dec 6, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I really like cutting stuff up. :doublethumbsup: I would break out half a dozen knives for testing.


Plus 1.


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## Valkyrae (Dec 9, 2017)

That's really cool to hear about the edge life.. Definitely something to aspire for with sharpening practice. 

@scott that's really funny your wife enjoys that 'thwack' so much at the end of the cut.. One of the things that suckered me into Japanese knives was how some of the thinner blades seemed to ghost through products


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## zeus241129 (Dec 23, 2017)

Very much thank you for the information


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