# Chinese Cleaver / Cai dao  Carbon or Stainless Steel



## Kamelion (Mar 30, 2017)

Dear Forumists,

next week a friend of mine travels to Hong Kong, and I of course see an opportunity to get my hands on a cleaver from Chan Chi Kee (CCK). I have pretty much settled already on the model, namely the kitchen slicer size two. Now comes my big anxiety issiue  carbon steel or stainless steel?

Bear with me, it will be a fairly long post, but I would love som help from you guys!

*Other authorities*
Fuchsia Dunlop writes a lot about cleavers in her books, and seems to alwas tend to carbon steel. In this article the brass mold on on this and this picture one hand seems to indicate stainless steel (but only if it is CCK), but for me the blade and the patina looks like carbon steel? Furthermore, in this article/picture she seems to at home use a complete stainless steel knife.

The article from The Spruce says that » Today, even well known cookbook authors such as Martin Yan and Eileen Yin-Fei Lo recommend blades that are stainless steel, or a combination of carbon and stainless steel.«

Could it be, carbon cleavers are an older more romantic style, but that most cooks in reality uses good stainless steel now?

*Food discoloration and metallic taste*
I am somewhat familiar with carbon steel, having a Smart Wife Cleaver. The taking care of the knife and preventing rust is no issue to me, but what I fear with a cleaver maybe higher in carbon is what some people are mentioning  onions and cabbage getting a metallic taste from the steel. Is this something you CCK owners can confirm?

*CCK reputation/quality of stainless steel?*
As Chemicalkinetics mentions, and Paulustrious confirms, CCK are not primarily known for their stainless steel knives. However, both seem very happy with the quality of their stainless steel cleavers, finding them to hold the edge very good. Is the carbon steel, however, better, or is the stainless good enough?

*What to get?*
So there I am, having no idea which to get. Have you guys owned both sorts? What are your experience? I would love som help as I stand before this life-changing path selection.


----------



## mise_en_place (Mar 30, 2017)

In my opinion, if you're going to spend less than $70-100 on a cleaver, carbon is your best option. I'd be willing to bet a $9 carbon cleaver would outperform a $50-70 stainless pretty much every time.

I wouldn't be too worried about the reactivity of carbon cleavers, either. The first couple times you use it, it may react a little funky. If it continues to be a problem, force a quick mustard patina on the blade. That will help it keep from being too reactive in the short term. As you keep using it, your forced patina will get replaced by a natural one from use. Then you'll have best of both worlds: low reactivity and not cheap crap stainless steel.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Mar 30, 2017)

Kamelion said:


> Dear Forumists,
> 
> next week a friend of mine travels to Hong Kong, and I of course see an opportunity to get my hands on a cleaver from Chan Chi Kee (CCK). I have pretty much settled already on the model, namely the kitchen slicer size two. Now comes my big anxiety issiue  carbon steel or stainless steel?
> 
> ...



You are right about many Chinese thinking carbon is old fashioned. When I was in a cooking school in Chengdu the instructor (a young guy) told me he couldn't understand why any one would use a knife that rusts if he didn't have to. He made a comment about carbon being for old people that didn't know better. All the cleavers at the school were stainless. I also went through the cutlery department of something like the Chinese version of Wal-Mart. Zero carbon on their racks. The only place you could find carbon cleavers was out in the little shops scattered around the wet markets.


----------



## XooMG (Mar 30, 2017)

Kamelion said:


> Dear Forumists,
> 
> next week a friend of mine travels to Hong Kong, and I of course see an opportunity to get my hands on a cleaver from Chan Chi Kee (CCK). I have pretty much settled already on the model, namely the kitchen slicer size two. Now comes my big anxiety issiue  carbon steel or stainless steel?


This is really not a major issue. You might be fretting more than necessary.



> Bear with me, it will be a fairly long post, but I would love som help from you guys!
> 
> *Other authorities*
> Fuchsia Dunlop writes a lot about cleavers in her books, and seems to alwas tend to carbon steel. In this article the brass mold on on this and this picture one hand seems to indicate stainless steel (but only if it is CCK), but for me the blade and the patina looks like carbon steel? Furthermore, in this article/picture she seems to at home use a complete stainless steel knife.


Why not email her and ask? it would clear things up much more reliably. Yes, the one-piece knife in the last link is cck stainless. In the other article, it looks like a stainless slicer that has been coarsely reground and thinned, and the variable reflectivity in finishes gives the impression of a black oxide finish when there may not be one. Note the knife in the foreground of this pic:
http://www.thegannet.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/TheGannet_FuchsiaDunlop_073.jpg



> The article from The Spruce says that » Today, even well known cookbook authors such as Martin Yan and Eileen Yin-Fei Lo recommend blades that are stainless steel, or a combination of carbon and stainless steel.«
> 
> Could it be, carbon cleavers are an older more romantic style, but that most cooks in reality uses good stainless steel now?


Yes. I think both modernists and traditionalists are influenced much more by cognitive biases and local convention than by deep thoughtful analysis.



> *Food discoloration and metallic taste*
> I am somewhat familiar with carbon steel, having a Smart Wife Cleaver. The taking care of the knife and preventing rust is no issue to me, but what I fear with a cleaver maybe higher in carbon is what some people are mentioning  onions and cabbage getting a metallic taste from the steel. Is this something you CCK owners can confirm?


Afraid I am not personally familiar with them, but generally it is manageable. If you are concerned about it, stainless really helps you relax. Most of my knives are simpler steels, but I rather like the peace of mind when using a stainless knife. If I'm interrupted, I can leave a wet knife on the board for a few minutes. I can set the knife down after slicing something acidic, without instantly wiping off the blade.



> *CCK reputation/quality of stainless steel?*
> As Chemicalkinetics mentions, and Paulustrious confirms, CCK are not primarily known for their stainless steel knives. However, both seem very happy with the quality of their stainless steel cleavers, finding them to hold the edge very good. Is the carbon steel, however, better, or is the stainless good enough?
> 
> *What to get?*
> So there I am, having no idea which to get. Have you guys owned both sorts? What are your experience? I would love som help as I stand before this life-changing path selection.


I am no expert or authority, but I'll add an opinion to the bucket.

If you see yourself just cooking and wanting to get the job done, consider a stainless knife. I do not think you will end up with a vastly different performer, but you'll have a blade you can "ignore" more easily.

If you like tweaking the edge and doing thinning on stones, a carbon blade feels a bit different and many folks prefer them.

Key is to relax a bit and get something that cuts well that you can use comfortably and modify to your needs.


----------



## foody518 (Mar 30, 2017)

Noodle Soup said:


> You are right about many Chinese thinking carbon is old fashioned. When I was in a cooking school in Chengdu the instructor (a young guy) told me he couldn't understand why any one would use a knife that rusts if he didn't have to. He made a comment about carbon being for old people that didn't know better. All the cleavers at the school were stainless. I also went through the cutlery department of something like the Chinese version of Wal-Mart. Zero carbon on their racks. The only place you could find carbon cleavers was out in the little shops scattered around the wet markets.



I got pretty much the same feedback and experience when asking family there and then browsing the typical large grocery/dept store


----------



## Jovidah (Mar 30, 2017)

foody518 said:


> I got pretty much the same feedback and experience when asking family there and then browsing the typical large grocery/dept store



Is it really much different in the US or Europe? Here carbon is only used or sold by afficionados as well.


----------



## Kamelion (Mar 30, 2017)

mise_en_place said:


> In my opinion, if you're going to spend less than $70-100 on a cleaver, carbon is your best option. I'd be willing to bet a $9 carbon cleaver would outperform a $50-70 stainless pretty much every time.
> 
> I wouldn't be too worried about the reactivity of carbon cleavers, either. The first couple times you use it, it may react a little funky. If it continues to be a problem, force a quick mustard patina on the blade. That will help it keep from being too reactive in the short term. As you keep using it, your forced patina will get replaced by a natural one from use. Then you'll have best of both worlds: low reactivity and not cheap crap stainless steel.



That was my first thought, but then the two dudes I linked to seemed so positive about the CCKs 

However, you are probably right about the patina. My Smart Wife (gotta love that name) has some nice patina and does not infuse any metallic taste as far as I can tell.


----------



## Kamelion (Mar 30, 2017)

XooMG said:


> This is really not a major issue. You might be fretting more than necessary.



What? Please do not take away my angst, its all Ive got, haha.



XooMG said:


> Why not email her and ask? it would clear things up much more reliably.



Done. I geuss she gets thousand an one email every day though, we will see.



XooMG said:


> Yes, the one-piece knife in the last link is cck stainless. In the other article, it looks like a stainless slicer that has been coarsely reground and thinned, and the variable reflectivity in finishes gives the impression of a black oxide finish when there may not be one. Note the knife in the foreground of this pic:
> http://www.thegannet.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/TheGannet_FuchsiaDunlop_073.jpg



Are you sure? I thought it was carbon, but as you say, maybe it has just a lot of scars and scrams. And the brassinstead of steelalso could maybe indicate stainless. If Fuchsia has gone stainless, I am probably too.


----------



## Kamelion (Mar 30, 2017)

Noodle Soup said:


> You are right about many Chinese thinking carbon is old fashioned. When I was in a cooking school in Chengdu the instructor (a young guy) told me he couldn't understand why any one would use a knife that rusts if he didn't have to. He made a comment about carbon being for old people that didn't know better. All the cleavers at the school were stainless. I also went through the cutlery department of something like the Chinese version of Wal-Mart. Zero carbon on their racks. The only place you could find carbon cleavers was out in the little shops scattered around the wet markets.





foody518 said:


> I got pretty much the same feedback and experience when asking family there and then browsing the typical large grocery/dept store





Jovidah said:


> Is it really much different in the US or Europe? Here carbon is only used or sold by afficionados as well.



Well this is my concern. Of course the random dude cooking food in chinaeven not the random culinary institute scholar or teacherwill not be an afficionado. I you would ask random Swede how to cook meatballs you would get a crappy recipe. But we are Liebhabers, arent we? So we would like to get what the chinese knife nerds has, hence my many deliberations.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Mar 30, 2017)

It is probably worth mentioning that in China it is all about knife skills not the knife. Stainless or carbon, they both will get sharpened on a medium grit Silicon carbide benchstone. I have a half dozen of these stones I've brought back over the years. No one is spending hours progressively polishing the edge on ever finer stones but just stand back and watch them cut! They certainly put me to shame every time.


----------



## Sillywizard (Mar 30, 2017)

All things considered, is it too much to ask your friend to bring back one of each? Alternatively, that he/she mails them back to you? That way you could try them out at your leisure and decide for yourself without regret for not knowing if you missed out on not having either the stainless or carbon.
Excess Chinese chef knives can be shared with friends, family and/or relatives.

I don't have personal experience with a CCK, so this is the only advice I am proffering.


----------



## XooMG (Mar 30, 2017)

Kamelion said:


> Done. I geuss she gets thousand an one email every day though, we will see.


It is good to try, and it is the kind of question that can stand out and be satisfying to address.


> Are you sure? I thought it was carbon, but as you say, maybe it has just a lot of scars and scrams. And the brassinstead of steelalso could maybe indicate stainless. If Fuchsia has gone stainless, I am probably too.


I am generally allergic to certainty and people who seem very sure of everything, so no I'm not sure. I can only identify the one-piece knife due to the inscription on the handle. Speculating on the other knife is just that, but I am not seeing the colors that suggest patina, and the light/dark contrasts are inverted in the picture I posted. I have scratched up a few cleavers myself, and they photograph similarly.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Mar 30, 2017)

XooMG said:


> It is good to try, and it is the kind of question that can stand out and be satisfying to address.
> 
> I am generally allergic to certainty and people who seem very sure of everything, so no I'm not sure. I can only identify the one-piece knife due to the inscription on the handle. Speculating on the other knife is just that, but I am not seeing the colors that suggest patina, and the light/dark contrasts are inverted in the picture I posted. I have scratched up a few cleavers myself, and they photograph similarly.



I can say I e-mailed her once in the past without getting a reply."'Famous" people are like that.


----------



## chinacats (Mar 30, 2017)

CCK carbon is all I've tried. Not crazy reactive and as stated, you can easily force a patina if you like. 

I'd suggest buying carbon if you prefer carbon and stainless if that's your preference...or as suggested, have your friend get one of each


----------



## XooMG (Mar 31, 2017)

Noodle Soup said:


> I can say I e-mailed her once in the past without getting a reply."'Famous" people are like that.


I am not familiar with her work and do not know her, so I must leave it to others to try. I also gave my guess regarding the relevant pictures, in case direct communication with the source is lacking for whatever reason.

Hope the OP has an easier time than you did.


----------



## Kamelion (Mar 31, 2017)

Noodle Soup said:


> I can say I e-mailed her once in the past without getting a reply."'Famous" people are like that.



Or sometimes their agents ar like that, never forwarding that kind of emails at all


----------



## Kamelion (Mar 31, 2017)

XooMG said:


> I am generally allergic to certainty and people who seem very sure of everything, so no I'm not sure. I can only identify the one-piece knife due to the inscription on the handle. Speculating on the other knife is just that, but I am not seeing the colors that suggest patina, and the light/dark contrasts are inverted in the picture I posted. I have scratched up a few cleavers myself, and they photograph similarly.



Of course. After more research, I think you might be very correct, however; take a look at this picture, seems to be the same model with the brass joint.


----------



## schanop (Mar 31, 2017)

In Hong Kong, CCK is cheap, get them both. Her knife from the Dick Soup article seems to be KF1111, stainless model. If I am not mistaken, there are three letters below the number that kinda indicates stainless knife for CCK.


----------



## TimoNieminen (Mar 31, 2017)

Kamelion said:


> So there I am, having no idea which to get. Have you guys owned both sorts? What are your experience? I would love som help as I stand before this life-changing path selection.



Almost all of my cai dao are carbon. Most are from Hong Kong, and most of those are Ho Ching Kee Lee. Haven't had any trouble with reactivity with foods with them. The only "problem" is one needs to wash and dry them to avoid rust. Only CCK I've used is a kau kong cleaver, and it doesn't see much onion or cabbage, but when it's met onions, no problems.

For the convenience/laziness of stainless, I bought a couple of Taiwanese stainless-clad VG10 cai dao, and like them a lot. Have used a X50CrMoV15 cai dao, $15, excellent geometry, not great edge-retention.


----------



## Kamelion (Apr 2, 2017)

XooMG said:


> It is good to try, and it is the kind of question that can stand out and be satisfying to address.
> 
> I am generally allergic to certainty and people who seem very sure of everything, so no I'm not sure. I can only identify the one-piece knife due to the inscription on the handle. Speculating on the other knife is just that, but I am not seeing the colors that suggest patina, and the light/dark contrasts are inverted in the picture I posted. I have scratched up a few cleavers myself, and they photograph similarly.



The more I look, the more certain I am that you are right. This picture is definitely stainless, and this other picture I would first have thought carbon, but it looks like the same knife and the patina isnt really carbony?


----------



## daveb (Apr 2, 2017)

I'm not a cleaver guy but have a carbon one that I'll use occasionally. It's been around the block and has no reactivity issues. Sharpening is relatively easy.

Did want to offer that CCKs are readily available in the states and that I've seen the CCK catalog posted here for worldwide delivery. This may be an easier way to acquire one (or two) than risk having friend come home with counterfeits. If you've posted a country of origin I missed it but did notice that you don't spell funny.

.


----------



## Kamelion (Apr 2, 2017)

daveb said:


> I'm not a cleaver guy but have a carbon one that I'll use occasionally. It's been around the block and has no reactivity issues. Sharpening is relatively easy.
> 
> Did want to offer that CCKs are readily available in the states and that I've seen the CCK catalog posted here for worldwide delivery. This may be an easier way to acquire one (or two) than risk having friend come home with counterfeits. If you've posted a country of origin I missed it but did notice that you don't spell funny.
> 
> .



Haha, I kän späll fanny, as wäll. No, I am from Sweden but living in Germany. Nevertheless, this catalogueespecially if the prices are listedwould interest me; I have tried to contact CCK on more than one occasion, but they do not seem to bother with potential email customers.


----------



## chinacats (Apr 2, 2017)

I've bought from this place...not sure if it's the same site Dave is referencing or not.

http://www.chefsmall.net/Chan-Chi-Kee-CCK


----------



## Noodle Soup (Apr 2, 2017)

chinacats said:


> I've bought from this place...not sure if it's the same site Dave is referencing or not.
> 
> http://www.chefsmall.net/Chan-Chi-Kee-CCK



I've bought from them a couple of times. I don't know if their prices are the best or not but they do have a good selection.


----------



## daveb (Apr 2, 2017)

This is the one, been awhile. If I were shopping I would go this route unless friend is going to CCK or CCK retailer.


----------



## Kamelion (Apr 2, 2017)

Kamelion said:


> XooMG said:
> 
> 
> > It is good to try, and it is the kind of question that can stand out and be satisfying to address.
> ...



Sorry if I seem to find Fuchsia to be the measure of all things here; sometime one has ones phases


----------



## Kamelion (Apr 2, 2017)

Does anyone know what the prices in the HK store are, roughly? As I said, they do not communicate very rapidly.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Apr 2, 2017)

"One of each" might be a good idea if you are planning to use it as your main or even only knife. If you have a good stainless chef knife, santoku, nakiri... anyway then you can use it for the tasks that aren't good on carbon - cleavers are certainly fun, but are they what you are reaching for when you want to cut tomatoes, cut or zest citrus, or need a utility knife that can be left unattended on the counter during a non-cutting-intensive project?


----------



## schanop (Apr 3, 2017)

Kamelion said:


> Does anyone know what the prices in the HK store are, roughly? As I said, they do not communicate very rapidly.



It was many years ago when I was at CCK in Kowloon. I would say about 40US perhaps, for KF11xx series. At least it is less than half price what I have to pay down here to get a CCK from local shops.

Frankly, get both stainless and carbon, then move on to Sugimoto or something better.


----------



## XooMG (Apr 3, 2017)

Good to figure out the size(s) you're after without investing too deeply.

I've never owned a cck, and I sometimes wonder what I'm missing, but then again I have too many slicing cleavers already and don't really feel the need for more.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Apr 3, 2017)

Looks like you spiffed up those handles


----------



## Kamelion (May 8, 2017)

Finally my CCKs arrived, thank you very much for all help. Added some info and photos in this thread.


----------



## foody518 (May 8, 2017)

Very detailed post there, thanks Kamelion!


----------



## Tler (Apr 13, 2018)

if you see this Kamelion, I'd love to know which you prefer / final verdict. It sounds like the 1303 over the 1912, but that is based off your one sentence.


----------



## Tler (Apr 13, 2018)

I've been debating between the two and CKTG has a sale on 1303 for $60 right now


----------



## Noodle Soup (Apr 13, 2018)

I've been working mostly with a light, thin stainless CCK No. 1 slicer and a heavy Leung Tim chopper(they said it was carbon but it isn't staining) since I returned from Hong Kong. Really like that CCK. I have another half dozen new knives to work my way through with most of them carbon. I did dig out a carbon Double Sword to compare to the stainless CCK. I would stay they are about equal.


----------



## btbyrd (Apr 13, 2018)

Some vegan friends of mine just got married, so I gave them the stainless CCK that CKTG sells. They're not knife people and I'd heard that the CCK stainless is decent steel (if a bit of a mystery) so I went that route. Didn't want to gift anyone a knife that would rust. Seemed nice enough when I handled it. It's a shame that they seem to cost so much in the US now.

I really want the large Takeda cleaver. Super bad.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Apr 13, 2018)

You might save a few dollars but CCK isn't all that cheap in Hong Kong either.


----------



## dafox (Apr 13, 2018)

Anyone know where to get CCK's here in the USA, or online? Chefs Mall on line is not working, don't know what happened to them, I have a couple of orders with them but they are pending and nothing is happening. I have found some of the CCK's available on EBay, restaurant mall, and CKTG. Would like to get a CCK 1622 or 1623 and try double swords, etc.


----------



## chinacats (Apr 13, 2018)

Really curious what's happening with chef's mall?


----------



## Noodle Soup (Apr 13, 2018)

Good question. First they canceled my order because they said they couldn't find anyone that would ship knives. Now I can't even open the website. Aliexpress said they shipped a cleaver my way last week so it must not be China wide problem.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Apr 13, 2018)

Tler said:


> if you see this Kamelion, I'd love to know which you prefer / final verdict. It sounds like the 1303 over the 1912, but that is based off your one sentence.



My new love is a 1911 but I also picked up a 1302 in the CCK store. Would rather have had a 1301 but they didn't seem to be in stock. For what it is worth the 1302 is larger than the 1911.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Apr 13, 2018)

Did a little calculating of the exchange rate and that CCK 1911 cost me roughly $46 in Hong Kong. I can't seem to find the receipt for the 1302 (I went back to CCK twice)


----------



## Jville (Apr 13, 2018)

I have the stainless CCK. At first I didn't like the steel, but after a while messing with it. It seems decent/good enough.


----------



## Bensbites (Apr 13, 2018)

I couldnt find a 1622 on CCK website. Which one is it?


----------



## dafox (Apr 13, 2018)

Bensbites said:


> I couldnt find a 1622 on CCK website. Which one is it?



Sorry, meant 1922 and 1923.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Apr 13, 2018)

Not to pick on you daFox but do you mean 1522 and 1523 barbeque choppers? I'm not finding 1922 or 1923 knives on the CCK website.


----------



## dafox (Apr 13, 2018)

Noodle Soup said:


> Not to pick on you daFox but do you mean 1522 and 1523 barbeque choppers? I'm not finding 1922 or 1923 knives on the CCK website.



It's fine, i get the numbers mixed up :laugh:
1922 and 1923
http://www.chefsmall.net/Chan-Chi-Kee-Chinese-Vegetable-Knife-Vegetable-Cleaver-M
In the "cleaver" section, carbon, Dimensions: 20.8 x 9.8 x 0.4 cm.


----------



## dafox (Apr 13, 2018)

Noodle Soup said:


> Good question. First they canceled my order because they said they couldn't find anyone that would ship knives. Now I can't even open the website. Aliexpress said they shipped a cleaver my way last week so it must not be China wide problem.



I have a cleaver on it's way from Hong Kong, from an eBay purchase. Tracking is working, looks to be in transit.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Apr 13, 2018)

Strange, I see your ChefsMall link (until I try a second time, and then I can't?
but I don't see those models on the CCK website. But then I really didn't find the CCK people in the store that knowledgeable about their line either.


----------



## dafox (Apr 17, 2018)

Noodle Soup said:


> Strange, I see your ChefsMall link (until I try a second time, and then I can't?
> but I don't see those models on the CCK website. But then I really didn't find the CCK people in the store that knowledgeable about their line either.



The chefsmall.net website is working now.
http://www.chefsmall.net/CCK-Chinese-Vegetable-Knife-Vegetable-Cleaver-S


----------



## dafox (Apr 17, 2018)

dafox said:


> I have a cleaver on it's way from Hong Kong, from an eBay purchase. Tracking is working, looks to be in transit.



Received, no problems.


----------



## Chef Doom (Apr 18, 2018)

You only have one option. Get one carbon and one stainless. Double the love, double the fun.


----------

