# katana, Japanese sword



## mano (Jun 10, 2014)

Anyone know anything about katana swords? I'm looking for something around $75 that's not a complete piece of junk. To be used as a display and cutting watermellons and the like in half.


----------



## Nmko (Jun 10, 2014)

At that price point you are still in the "piece of junk" range unfortunately... Why a Katana might i ask? - the CCK watermelon knife is pretty close to your price if your after a bada$$ melon chopper??


----------



## rami_m (Jun 10, 2014)

who wouldn't want a katana? i think the melon is for demos.


----------



## Noodle Soup (Jun 10, 2014)

The Cold Steel "sword style" machetes are really good for the money but they are light years from traditional.


----------



## Marko Tsourkan (Jun 10, 2014)

I too a katana. Actually, if I keep wanting, I will have to eventually make one. I already know a blacksmith who I can learn from, but this project is years away.


----------



## rami_m (Jun 10, 2014)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> I too a katana. Actually, if I keep wanting, I will have to eventually make one. I already know a blacksmith who I can learn from, but this project is years away.



hmm, an s grind katana, would be interesting to see a demo of that.


----------



## Marko Tsourkan (Jun 10, 2014)

rami_m said:


> hmm, an s grind katana, would be interesting to see a demo of that.



Actually, it is mostly forged to shape and then shaped with scrapers and stones if done traditionally. Very labor intensive process. I will probably take a shortcut and do the scrapers' part on a grinder, but forging and stone finished will stay unchanged.


----------



## ThEoRy (Jun 10, 2014)

ECG 2015

[video=youtube;Kb8P6Sq9PDU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb8P6Sq9PDU[/video]


----------



## LKH9 (Jun 10, 2014)

At $75, it's worst than a toy if you want to do some real cutting, the handle is just a welded rat-tail. It's downright dangerous to the wielder! See how they are made here.

[video=youtube;Ax5H9PSf9g8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax5H9PSf9g8[/video]

I only know that modern products like 1055 Cold Steel are way more tougher than the traditional, differentially hardened katana, and is like 10 times cheaper.


----------



## Norton (Jun 10, 2014)

If you get a Cold Steel sword you can also pierce the hood of a car. If you want.


----------



## JBroida (Jun 10, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> At $75, it's worst than a toy if you want to do some real cutting, the handle is just a welded rat-tail. It's downright dangerous to the wielder! See how they are made here.
> 
> [video=youtube;Ax5H9PSf9g8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax5H9PSf9g8[/video]
> 
> I only know that modern products like 1055 Cold Steel are way more tougher than the traditional, differentially hardened katana, and is like 10 times cheaper.



much more than 10x cheaper in reality... if you think $6-10k will buy you a real, well made katana, you're in for a surprise.


----------



## XooMG (Jun 10, 2014)

JBroida said:


> much more than 10x cheaper in reality... if you think $6-10k will buy you a real, well made katana, you're in for a surprise.



Have the prices gone up much in the last decade or so? That price range used to land a reasonably decent piece in simple mountings and polish. Mukansa and top award winner stuff was a lot more, of course, but there were quite a few decent values under 10k. Could be different now, though.


----------



## Talim (Jun 10, 2014)

Do you really want a cheap katana? 
[video=youtube;qrIEdW5A9cs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrIEdW5A9cs[/video]


----------



## WarrenB (Jun 10, 2014)

I was lucky enough to have a walk around The Lanes Armoury here in the UK last year, they had WWII Japanese officers swords that started at £300 for basic rough items up to a few thousand, they also have a huge selection from all periods and I think the most expensive in there at the time was around £17,500. Some amazing stuff in there, full sets of Samurai armour, bows, spears etc. Spent ages just staring at everything:biggrin:


----------



## JBroida (Jun 10, 2014)

XooMG said:


> Have the prices gone up much in the last decade or so? That price range used to land a reasonably decent piece in simple mountings and polish. Mukansa and top award winner stuff was a lot more, of course, but there were quite a few decent values under 10k. Could be different now, though.



i may be mistaken, but the only sword smith i know personally is a mukansa... the prices of his work blow my mind... even at half of that, youre still above $10k easily


----------



## XooMG (Jun 10, 2014)

JBroida said:


> i may be mistaken, but the only sword smith i know personally is a mukansa... the prices of his work blow my mind... even at half of that, youre still above $10k easily


Collectors really inflate values at the top end...when I was into it, it wasn't uncommon to see unmounted blades in the >35k range (for tachi), especially because they also tended to seek out the top polishers. Of course a general appreciator of weaponry or martial artist shouldn't be looking at the Yoshihara bros or Amada Akitsugu anyway.


----------



## Korin_Mari (Jun 10, 2014)

JBroida said:


> i may be mistaken, but the only sword smith i know personally is a mukansa... the prices of his work blow my mind... even at half of that, youre still above $10k easily



+1 

Considering the material they use, the amount they are allotted, and the labor that goes into making a real katana... I wouldn't trust anything below 10k to be honest. $75 for sure won't get you anything beyond decoration.


----------



## boomchakabowwow (Jun 10, 2014)

that watermelon video was amazingly stupid.

i cant see if he lost a digit. gross!!


----------



## mano (Jun 10, 2014)

Okay, I admit it. The guy in the watermelon video is my son and that's who the $75 sword is for. He said, "That stupid sword made me cut my hand and I almost lost a finger!" 

Please help because he won't make any more sword videos until he gets another one.


----------



## JMJones (Jun 10, 2014)

I took a japanese sword making class with Howard Clark at the NESM. During that time I did allot of reading and researching the topic. Also Howard does excellent work. 

I also sold a version of a damascus katana( the handle was a little longer than standard) made by Jim Hrisoulas last week on ebay for 1500. 

You can get plenty of great swords for way under ten grand. That would be like saying you cant get a decent chef knife for under 3k and using examples of Devin, Burke or Kramer. Sure some do cost that much but there not the only game in town either.

That being said, at the 75 dollar price point,I would be afraid of it failing and hurting myself or bystanders. I would think a 75 dollar katana would be like the infamous "saturday night special" pistol. It may work fine or it may hurt you.


----------



## Matus (Jun 10, 2014)

mano said:


> Please help because he won't make any more sword videos until he gets another one.



You mean - you want your son to continue trying to cut off his finger?


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jun 10, 2014)

Matus said:


> You mean - you want your son to continue trying to cut off his finger?



I'm pretty sure that was a joke.


----------



## mano (Jun 10, 2014)

Matus said:


> You mean - you want your son to continue trying to cut off his finger?



Spooner (his given name is Shecky) and I have a dysfunctional relationship. I'm just holding up my end.


----------



## Mingooch (Jun 10, 2014)

ThEoRy said:


> ECG 2015
> 
> [video=youtube;Kb8P6Sq9PDU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb8P6Sq9PDU[/video]



So that is your demo next year at my house? Do I need to have you sign a waiver? LOL


----------



## ThEoRy (Jun 10, 2014)

There's that dry wit I was speaking with you about...


----------



## ThEoRy (Jun 10, 2014)

Mingooch said:


> So that is your demo next year at my house? Do I need to have you sign a waiver? LOL



Nah, I'm not stupid. 


So dope, I even accidentally make smiley faces on that *****.


[video=youtube;bcpBh0f4bzI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcpBh0f4bzI[/video]


----------



## LKH9 (Jun 11, 2014)

Authentic Katana is only for collection, way too expensive to be used for real! And too rough handling will bend and chip the blade, as in Japanese kitchen knives, since they are made from the same stuff and technique.


----------



## chefcomesback (Jun 11, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> Authentic Katana is only for collection, way too expensive to be used for real! And too rough handling will bend and chip the blade, as in Japanese kitchen knives, since they are made from the same stuff and technique.



Actually the construction and the materials of katana is quite different than kitchen knives . In forged kitchen knives you will see sanmai: core steel wrapped in soft cladding or honyaki : monosteel differential heat treated. Real Katana will have a hard steel on the outside for cutting edge and softer steel in the center to give toughness and flexibility . There is many variations of it but this is the most common version. The steel used for katana is tamagahane which will not be used in kitchen knives .Only similarity I see with kitchen knives is hamon like you will see in honyaki blades


Sent from my iPhone using Kitchen Knife Forum


----------



## LKH9 (Jun 11, 2014)

chefcomesback said:


> Actually the construction and the materials of katana is quite different than kitchen knives . In forged kitchen knives you will see sanmai: core steel wrapped in soft cladding or honyaki : monosteel differential heat treated. Real Katana will have a hard steel on the outside for cutting edge and softer steel in the center to give toughness and flexibility . There is many variations of it but this is the most common version. The steel used for katana is tamagahane which will not be used in kitchen knives .Only similarity I see with kitchen knives is hamon like you will see in honyaki blades



The only thing lacking in laminated kitchen knife is the differential hardening, honyaki aside.

The construction method is totally the same, weld the 2 different metals together and hammer out the shape, just different design for cutting food. Tamahagane, compared to modern steel is pretty much crap. I believe they were like Hitachi SK steel in quality or even worse, just not as pure as the modern white / blue paper steel. Ancient Japan was very poor, they had to fold the poor piece of metal to get the elements well-distributed, and sparks are seen all over the white hot Tamahagane, indication of high impurities. :knife: 

San-mai or "hard-steel wrapped around soft core" or not, the blade will get bent when being abused too hard( like chopping through very thick and hard objects, like those tests in Cold Steel videos) Traditional Japanese sword is not flexible at all, once bent, it's bent and you will need a master craftsman to fix, it's just more resistant to shattering. The only good thing is the edge retention. Japanese never temper the blades to spring.

Tamahagane is not as legendary as most people think.


----------



## JBroida (Jun 11, 2014)

sparks are actually not a function of impurities, but in the case of forging, they are due to overheating, and are often an indicator of carbon content. There are numerous papers by PhD metallurgists on sparks and their relation to understanding steel, but for what its worth, its quite easy to tell general steel types based on sparks... i.e. white steel vs blue steel vs v2 vs ginsanko, etc.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jun 11, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> Authentic Katana is only for collection, way too expensive to be used for real!



Not quite.

It is not at all uncommon to use Nihonto as training blades. All swords other than Nihonto are illegal in Japan, so within Japan there is no other option for tamehisigiri, or if you want to train in Iaido with a live blade. The only factor which differentiates and art blade is the level of polish. It is impossible to avoid maring a fine polish through use.

Artistic considerations can adversely affect usability, such as a wide hamon, but this was only common during a small time period.

A properly forged and heat treated Japanese blade will not bend if used properly. There has been a lot of discussion over the last decade regarding L6 blades by a certain American master blacksmith which are heat treated to give a Bainite body. The blades are almost impossible to bend under any semblance on normal usage, but given that traditional blades do such an admirable job, the improved material properties are being used to produce blades with different geometry.

I actually own a 28" hirazukiri (unbeveled) katana by an American master bladesmith which is only about 5mm thick at it's thickest point. It has no issues due to modern metallurgy and the skill of the smith. This geometry is not seen in traditional blades over about 12".

Traditional blade are plenty strong enough, due to the geometry of the blades. Modern metallurgy allows us to make the sword requirement of "lasers".


----------



## LKH9 (Jun 11, 2014)

Cold Steel 1055 springy Katana > A bit softer, less edge retention, impossible to bend, and cheap.

Real Japanese Katana > Very very artistic, heap loads of efforts put into the birth, fully hardened for edge retention, extremely sharp, but can't withstand too much abuse + very very expensive.

Actually, I wonder how well a Nihonto fares against hard objects like bones. Does it chip as easily as kitchen knives, talking about traditional steel. Since they are the same with traditional kitchen knives, you don't want to cut too hard objects?


----------



## XooMG (Jun 11, 2014)

Most swords were moderately brittle because post-quench temper was fairly rare, but they were a relatively beefy convex geometry. With decent technique, they could cut living bone with little problem. They also did not have super refined edges throughout most of the history in which they were used. Whitney Houston's scarf wouldn't be impressed by a real sword. They were made for their purpose and did it well, though with limitations.


----------



## JBroida (Jun 11, 2014)

people also grossly misunderstand the folding of the steel... it was about carbon distribution


----------



## gic (Jun 12, 2014)

Bonhams had an auction recently called "Arts of the Samuri" which had a pretty amazing catalog. The sold katanas ranged in price from about 20k to about 300k I believe . They ranged in age from late 19th century to 14th century I think.
You can see the catalog here:

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21404

also there were katanas in this more recent catalog

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21861/


----------



## LKH9 (Jun 12, 2014)

JBroida said:


> people also grossly misunderstand the folding of the steel... it was about carbon distribution



This was caused by the NatGeo film about samurai sword. The steel had to be folded because of it's bad quality, it's like mixing molten metal thoroughly. Now in modern times, folded iron cladding is only for decoration sake, if the edge steel is folded, it ruins the good modern steel instead of improving it, from what I understood.


----------



## Lizzardborn (Jun 12, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> Actually, I wonder how well a Nihonto fares against hard objects like bones. Does it chip as easily as kitchen knives, talking about traditional steel. Since they are the same with traditional kitchen knives, you don't want to cut too hard objects?



A friend of mine was interested in kendo. They taught them to aim for the soft spots and also it was mostly stabbing - cut an artery, tendons so on. He also insisted that the best close combat weapon was a bow from more than 50 yards away.


----------



## JMJones (Jun 12, 2014)

JBroida said:


> people also grossly misunderstand the folding of the steel... it was about carbon distribution



Also folding squished out impurities from the tamagagane, resulting in a cleaner and more homogeneous steel. I agree that most people dont understand it and many think there is some sort of magic involved.


----------



## LKH9 (Jun 12, 2014)

JMJones said:


> Also folding squished out impurities from the tamagagane, resulting in a cleaner and more homogeneous steel. I agree that most people dont understand it and many think there is some sort of magic involved.



Because NatGeo said the sword is folded multiple times and it becomes a super godlike sword afterwards, never properly explains why it's done. That's one biased film.


----------



## daddy yo yo (Jun 13, 2014)

gic said:


> Bonhams had an auction recently called "Arts of the Samuri" which had a pretty amazing catalog. The sold katanas ranged in price from about 20k to about 300k I believe . They ranged in age from late 19th century to 14th century I think.
> You can see the catalog here:
> 
> http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21404
> ...


wow, i wish i was a millionaire, then i'd get myself some of such fine samurai armour and some katanas just to look at the pure elegance...


----------



## Burl Source (Jun 13, 2014)

Stuart Branson in Canada has been doing some Asian style blades that are pretty impressive.
Not sure what his current pricing is, but he has always done very nice work at prices I thought were considerably lower than they could be.
This was his first Katana.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 17, 2014)

I would second the CCK watermelon knife on Chinese Chef Mall. 14" wood handle 72.12. The right tool for the job. I would use my 270mm Gyuto to peel & cut up watermelon for banquet fruit salad.

Jesus Hernandez makes nice swords. He is really into Tameshigiri targets. Straw Tatami Omoto mats. He forges his target swords out of a bar of W2 carbon steel with differential heat treatment. W2 makes for some very nice Hamons. He not only forges the blades, he crafts all of the parts including the saya's.


----------



## MAS4T0 (Jun 17, 2014)

keithsaltydog said:


> Jesus Hernandez makes nice swords. He is really into Tameshigiri targets. Straw Tatami Omoto mats. He forges his target swords out of a bar of W2 carbon steel with differential heat treatment. W2 makes for some very nice Hamons. He not only forges the blades, he crafts all of the parts including the saya's.



Jesus Hernandez does make some excellent pieces, I have one of his tsuba which is very nicely made and was priced very reasonably.

Incidentally, I also have a tsuba from a gentleman who Bob Kramer studied metalworking techniques from earlier this year. 

I guess it's a small world.


----------



## rami_m (Jun 17, 2014)

You know, I am getting flashbacks of when I was a little boy. I always wanted a samurai sword. I don't have the need for it, and would likely hurt myself. But boy do I get a pang thinking about it.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 18, 2014)

MAS4T0 said:


> Jesus Hernandez does make some excellent pieces, I have one of his tsuba which is very nicely made and was priced very reasonably.
> 
> Incidentally, I also have a tsuba from a gentleman who Bob Kramer studied metalworking techniques from earlier this year.
> 
> I guess it's a small world.



Hello Mas I found our about Jesus Hernandez through a forum knife maker Pierre Rodrigue. Hernandez made me one of his Tameshigiri target katana's with black leather tsuka. On his site under Katana is a series of pictures of the blade. It is the Bamboo Leaves Katana with Red laquer saya painted bamboo.

My other real sword is a Muromachi period Wakizashi (short sword) forged in the 1490's. I am just a steward of this blade, just wipe polish & lighty oil that's it. The Hawaii Japanese Sword Society guys have some truly stunning blades as far back as the Heian periods Jogan and Fujiwara. Kamakura.

They had An Exhibit Of Japanese Swords at the Soto Mission here couple years ago. That got me hooked.


----------



## LKH9 (Jun 18, 2014)

> My other real sword is a Muromachi period Wakizashi (short sword) forged in the 1490's.



How much was that Wakizashi?


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 18, 2014)

2,700.00


----------



## Noodle Soup (Jun 18, 2014)

Just received a Cold Steel 1917 style cutlass machete today. Other than the blade pattern, no where near historically accurate to any thing but I think it is the best cheap "sword" you are going to find.


----------

