# Bester 1200 & Rika 5000



## Moodymann (Jun 26, 2012)

I have had a look around the threads and have noticed that these stones are well recommended. I have recently received a Heiji Gyuto and didn't put a micro bevel on its razor sharp ootb edge and it's now suffering, so I need to get a least one stone sorted as soon as. Are these 2 stones a good choice for my knife and because I live in the UK what would be a good alternative to the Rika? I have only found one in ebay in Japan and on JKS which isn't shipping internationally at the moment.

thanks in advance.


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## ThEoRy (Jun 26, 2012)

That's because ootb isn't razor sharp. It's an extremely obtuse angle with a tiny thin bevel. You will need at least those two stones to bring out the true potential.


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## Moodymann (Jun 26, 2012)

ThEoRy said:


> That's because ootb isn't razor sharp. It's an extremely obtuse angle with a tiny thin bevel.



I asked Heiji to put an edge on it, so it came razor sharp with a really fine edge and its micro chipping.



ThEoRy said:


> You will need at least those two stones to bring out the true potential.



That's not what I've read about these stones.


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## JohnyChai (Jun 26, 2012)

Moodymann said:


> I asked Heiji to put an edge on it, so it came razor sharp with a really fine edge and its micro chipping.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not what I've read about these stones.




What you have read and what Rick is saying both have merits...to get the best edge off of a Heiji you would probably have a larger progression including a lower grit stone(Beston 500, GG 400) to get rid of those chips faster and possibly a Natural or two for finishing...

That being said to begin sharpening that knife, those stones should work just fine. Maxim's(JNS) 6000 Synthetic, possibly Chosera 3k for alternatives...


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## schanop (Jun 26, 2012)

+1 for getting goodies from Maxim since you are in the uk. He's about to go on Holidays, so get in quick.


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## ThEoRy (Jun 26, 2012)

Moodymann said:


> I asked Heiji to put an edge on it, so it came razor sharp with a really fine edge and its micro chipping.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not what I've read about these stones.



Huh? I think you are misinterpreting what I have said. I thoroughly enjoy both of those stones and highly recommend them but I think you will need both of them AND a lower grit stone AND a stropping system as well in order to bring out the true sharpness in that knife.

About ootb sharpness, I've never been impressed by a factory edge. If Heji did something to your knife in addition to the regular factory edge well I guess that's different. Pics could help. Only time I ever received a brand new knife and was impressed with the edge was the Hiromoto suji I got from Dave. But he thinned it and sharpened it so there ya go.


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## Moodymann (Jun 27, 2012)

ThEoRy said:


> Huh? I think you are misinterpreting what I have said. I thoroughly enjoy both of those stones and highly recommend them but I think you will need both of them AND a lower grit stone AND a stropping system as well in order to bring out the true sharpness in that knife.
> 
> About ootb sharpness, I've never been impressed by a factory edge. If Heji did something to your knife in addition to the regular factory edge well I guess that's different. Pics could help. Only time I ever received a brand new knife and was impressed with the edge was the Hiromoto suji I got from Dave. But he thinned it and sharpened it so there ya go.



Ok, nevermind about ootb sharpness. I did say it was razor sharp.

I understand that more stones are needed for full potential but I am not looking for optimum set up right now. I need to get something sorted out right away. I was going to take pics when I received it but couldn't wait to get it in use. I'll eventually get some done, got to find a new place to stay first.


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## tk59 (Jun 27, 2012)

Heiji puts a nice edge on knives, in terms of sharpness. As the OP mentioned, this edge is on the delicate side. What you need depends on what you like/want out of your edge. A reputable 1k/5k duo is plenty good and I think you're fine starting there. If you have significant chips, you'll need something lower grit (400/500) to work them out in a reasonable amount of time.


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## Moodymann (Jun 28, 2012)

Ouch, not looking good so far. Gonna cost the same to deliver as it does to buy a stone.


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## tk59 (Jun 28, 2012)

I don't know what it would cost to get stones from Schtoo but he carries a nice selection of stones and he'll give you an honest opinion on what they can and can't do even if he loses a sale as a result. http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store...th=335&zenid=fa07f920ce0dd45070ef5cbc49b77073. I like the SigmaPower 400 and the SelectII 1.2k for double bevel knives. Good luck and please post your experience.


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## Moodymann (Jul 2, 2012)

Thanks, I had a look and the postage is same. I can get the Bester 1200 here http://www.fine-tools.com/scharf.html I just need to decide which stone to follow.


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## Aphex (Jul 4, 2012)

How about the Bester 1000/6000 combination stone? Seems to be just what you need without having to spend a fortune on shipping/customs.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/bester-imanishi-combination-waterstone-1000-6000g-prod867058/


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## ParJ (Jul 4, 2012)

To UK you can get a godo price on shipping from http://www.edenwebshops.co.uk but they mainly carry the Chosera stones. I have bought quite a few from them with no hassle. 

Par


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## TB_London (Jul 4, 2012)

Chosera 400, 1k and 5k is my default progression. I have a bester 700 which is quicker on super hard steels but I prefer the feedback of the choseras.
King 1k and 4k are useful for single bevels as theyre softer and muddier
My higher grit stones also don't get the use they used to after adding a 1/2 micron diamond loaded strop to my kit


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## AnxiousCowboy (Jul 5, 2012)

I go from a 2000 bester to the rika and I love it. Looking to get something more course for before the 2000, though.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 5, 2012)

Did you try Chef knives to Go.He has both the Besters & the Suihiro Rika 5K.Usually his shipping is reasonable.I really like the Besters & the Rika.Most of my work carbons are trained so a touchup on the Rika is all I need both for Gyuto & Yanagi which I use for sashimi & sushi topping.

Everyone has their preferance in stones,I am on my second rika 5K I love the feel,action,& razor edges I get on my Blue & White steels.Since you already have the 700(To me the 1200 Bester & 5K Rika are much better stones)Stones get better in higher grits,the 1200 Bester is a great med. stone & the Rika for the price is a top finishing stone.


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## TB_London (Jul 5, 2012)

Importing from US isn't just postage that adds up, it's custom fees and duty as well that'll average 25% on top....

I've seen the Suehiro 6k for sale in Germany and wondered if it's comparable to the 5k?

When my Choseras wear out I'll probably be giving Maxim's synthetics a go


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## Schtoo (Jul 5, 2012)

keithsaltydog said:


> Did you try Chef knives to Go.He has both the Besters & the Suihiro Rika 5K.Usually his shipping is reasonable.




Go check what the shipping quote on a Bester #1200 and a Rika is to the UK (where the OP is) and you'll find out the most expensive part of the equation is the shipping. Granted, there are a lot of hoops to jump through to find out the shipping cost which on a personal note drives me absolutely bat scat crazy...

(And folks who have to pay tax on imports get to pay that tax on the shipping as well...)


TB_London, The Suehiro #6000 (yellow box) is kind of similar to the Rika, but I find it to be a little less easy to use and quite a bit more 'grabby'. Works well enough, but it's not a stone I use often. Actually, I've used it only a few times before deciding to put it away until someone actually asks me "what is it like?" I think it would be a good stone, but one that might take some getting used to. 

Hope that helps, 


Stu.


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## Moodymann (Jul 5, 2012)

It's a tricky one, I calculate it at around £150 after adding import fees to get the Bester & Rika from your store Stu. Alternatively if ordering the Bester and Chosera 5K from Dieter Schmidt it will cost £120.

Stu, I am interested to hear what you think of an alternative to the Rika.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions, I can't wait to get this dealt with and sort out my edge.


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## TB_London (Jul 5, 2012)

Cheers for the info, already have a 6k that I love on Carbons so didn't want to get the suehiro unless it was going to be something special, which it doesn't sound like it is.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 5, 2012)

Schtoo said:


> Go check what the shipping quote on a Bester #1200 and a Rika is to the UK (where the OP is) and you'll find out the most expensive part of the equation is the shipping. Granted, there are a lot of hoops to jump through to find out the shipping cost which on a personal note drives me absolutely bat scat crazy...
> 
> (And folks who have to pay tax on imports get to pay that tax on the shipping as well...)
> 
> ...



Stu I ordered a Japan saw from your site,I just love those Japan saws.The shipping to Hawaii was reasonable.I also ordered the Sakai ultra thin fr. Keiichi in Osaka again shipping fair.

I guess it's diff. going fr. US to England,I have never paid customs that I know of fr. Japan to Hawaii.


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## Schtoo (Jul 6, 2012)

Keith,

Going to the US, it's supposed to be state sales tax you pay and theoretically there might be import duty on some stuff. I don't know how much stuff I've sent to the US, likely a thousand or more boxes, and I've never heard of one getting hit for anything. Missing postage, yes. Completely vanished, yes. Destroyed box, yes. But never duty or tax.

Going into Europe and depending on the country it'll get hit for import duty and VAT. Different countries have different thresholds for when tax and duty apply, and the UK is especially strict on it. I don't send very much stuff to the UK because of that. 

We're supposed to pay duties here on certain items, but I've only had to pay it a few times. 

I've worked out the quirks of most countries around the world now. Part of the job, especially when everything I sell goes overseas. I keep getting asked to sell inside Japan too, but I've got enough on my plate as it is without adding that complication. 

Moodyman, if you can get the Bester #1200 and a Chosera 5K for £120 to your door then do it. You won't be disappointed by either one I don't think. Granted, the Chosera 5K isn't anything like the Rika, but it's a case of being different, that's all. 

Stu.


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## Moodymann (Jul 7, 2012)

Schtoo said:


> Moodyman, if you can get the Bester #1200 and a Chosera 5K for £120 to your door then do it. You won't be disappointed by either one I don't think. Granted, the Chosera 5K isn't anything like the Rika, but it's a case of being different, that's all.
> 
> Stu.



Thanks Stu

I might just do that, but before I do I'll throw one last thing out there. I can get the JNS 1+6K for £104, in fact it might work out better. Then seeing as TK is considering buying he can have a shot and we can compare to the Choseras.


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## Schtoo (Jul 7, 2012)

Moodymann said:


> Thanks Stu
> 
> I might just do that, but before I do I'll throw one last thing out there. I can get the JNS 1+6K for £104, in fact it might work out better. Then seeing as TK is considering buying he can have a shot and we can compare to the Choseras.



Hi Moodyman,

The price is decent, but I have no idea what the stones are like so can't tell you anything. 

I cannot comment on a stone I don't have on hand, and have no experience with. Might be the greatest stone ever made, but if I don't have one, I can't comment on it. 

Apparently, they're good stones which is good, but you'd have to ask someone who's got them what they think of them. 

Good luck, pity I can't help you any more than the above.

Stu.


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## Jay (Jul 7, 2012)

There are so many great stones, who can have them all?



Spoiler



Nuts like us.



I think it's more important to just get _any_ stone in each appropriate grit range range and learn how to use it than it is to agonize over which stone to get. 

The Rika is a very nice finishing stone even if it lacks a sky high grit rating, and the Bester 1.2K is a very competent medium stone. Those two would serve you very nicely, as would several other combinations of stones.


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## Moodymann (Jul 11, 2012)

Argh, wrote a load and accidentally went back a page thus losing it all. I think I said something like this....

Fair point on getting started on anything, I have been feeling frustrated and impatient at the time it's taking me to get to the answers I've been looking for. However I would rather make an informed decision from the recommendations of the knowledgeable and experienced people here and buy once instead of make an unwise decision and re-buy stones which don't come cheap, especially from the UK.

I think the Rika is out of contention at the moment, I was under the impression the performance for the price gave good value and was a big draw. But seeing as the price is doubled after shipping to the UK, is it still good value?

I reckon I'll give the JNS a shot, just so busy right now and not around to receive delivery if I order. But as they say, good things come to those who wait.


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## TB_London (Jul 24, 2012)

Did you go with the JNS stones? Would be great to hear what you think of them?


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## stevenStefano (Jul 24, 2012)

I've bought stones from BluewayJapan on Ebay and didn't pay any import duties, he sells the Rika 5k and he is a great vendor, that's where I got mine


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## Moodymann (Mar 26, 2013)

Wow, time flies.

I eventually ended up getting a Gesshin 2000 brought over for me from my brother at xmas. Having trouble getting a good edge though, I know I won't be able to get the kind of edge I had with this one stone but I'm not sure how sharp I should be able to get it. I'm generally struggling to get a good edge that lasts, I'll need to get in touch with Jon for some advice as I can't get the desired finish.


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## JBroida (Mar 26, 2013)

What kind of sharpening trouble are you having?


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## WiscoNole (Mar 27, 2013)

Moodymann said:


> Wow, time flies.
> 
> I eventually ended up getting a Gesshin 2000 brought over for me from my brother at xmas. Having trouble getting a good edge though, I know I won't be able to get the kind of edge I had with this one stone but I'm not sure how sharp I should be able to get it. I'm generally struggling to get a good edge that lasts, I'll need to get in touch with Jon for some advice as I can't get the desired finish.


no offense but it's probably technique. I have a Gesshin 2k and can get an edge worthy of taking to work if I'm in a hurry.


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## Keith Sinclair (Mar 27, 2013)

Moodymann said:


> Wow, time flies.
> 
> I eventually ended up getting a Gesshin 2000 brought over for me from my brother at xmas. Having trouble getting a good edge though, I know I won't be able to get the kind of edge I had with this one stone but I'm not sure how sharp I should be able to get it. I'm generally struggling to get a good edge that lasts, I'll need to get in touch with Jon for some advice as I can't get the desired finish.



Do not give up on the Gesshin 2000.I think you made a good choice.It needs alot of water,I soak mine about half hour,also use a a spray bottle wt H2O while on the stone.It puts a very functional edge on knives wt. good steel.The stone has feedback & is aggressive for a 2K.

There is a link to Jon's--Knife Sharpening Playlist--24 videos.View the ones that can refine your tech.& put some more blades to that stone.


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## Moodymann (Apr 1, 2013)

JBroida said:


> What kind of sharpening trouble are you having?





WiscoNole said:


> no offense but it's probably technique. I have a Gesshin 2k and can get an edge worthy of taking to work if I'm in a hurry.





keithsaltydog said:


> Do not give up on the Gesshin 2000.I think you made a good choice.It needs alot of water,I soak mine about half hour,also use a a spray bottle wt H2O while on the stone.It puts a very functional edge on knives wt. good steel.The stone has feedback & is aggressive for a 2K.
> 
> There is a link to Jon's--Knife Sharpening Playlist--24 videos.View the ones that can refine your tech.& put some more blades to that stone.



Hi guys, thanks for the replies.

I am able to form burrs no problem, I think it's the removal that seems to be the problem. I have watched all the relevant videos from Jon's YouTube channel and taken knowledge from the forums. So far I have been soaking the stone for at least 30mins then forming a burr on both sides followed by working both sides with lesser pressure and number of strokes to try and deburr finishing off with some light trailing strokes and passing through cork. I have been managing to get to a point where the edge bites while doing the thumbnail test but it's not super sharp and grabby.

After some prep on the board the edge will slide while doing the thumbnail test. So this also makes me wonder about my board too (it's made of acacia wood), can't afford a decent board right now. I'll need to swap to the synthetic board this next time and see what happens.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Aaron


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## miggus (Oct 7, 2017)

Hi Guys,
i did not want to start a new topic for my question, which fits roughly into the premise of this thread. The thing is this: I'm looking to somewhat upgrade my stones, which at this point consist of a Kai 400/1000 combination stone and a Suehiro Rika 5k. The Kai stone is alright, I guess, but quite small. It is almost a cm shorter on each side than the Rika, which makes sharpening larger blades a chore. Also, the two sides are extremely different: the 1000 side is very soft and will melt away by just looking at it. The blade will cut into it very quickly and it needs a lot of flattening (which only takes seconds). The 400 side, on the other hand, is very hard and I'm having trouble flattening it at all with wet-dry sandpaper... there Is very, very litte material being removed.

I'll be using the 1200 for two things: Touching up on my knives (The usual: Blue & White steel, and some VG10) and finishing a lot of Euro knives (I want to learn, so I sharpen everything I can get my hands on). So it should be quite universal, for carbon, VG10 and soft stainless, it doesn't need to excel in Hightech steels like HAP40 or ZDP189. Also, it would be good if the stones were not too fragile, like being ruined if they're forgotten in water at some point in time, cracking if they're dried to fast, etc.

The 400 will be used mainly for the soft stainless knives, which, as you all know, are in a bad condition most of the time. So I plan on doing most of the work on the 400, finishing these knives with the 1200. Generally, I prefer harder stones, I looked into Naniwa Pro and Shapton, but these might be a bit too advanced, and perhaps a tad expensive? Also, as far as I understood, I should have a Diamond Plate for flattening those. I'm not all too motivated to spend 150 for one of these plates, so I thought that the somewhat softer Besters might be more sandpaper as a flattening medium.

Bottomline: Is there any reason why I seriously consider not going along with the plan of adding the combination of Bester 400 + Bester 1200 to my Rika 5k for said setup? Is there something which will be significantly better for some reason? Then please tell me 

Thank you all for reading.


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## daveb (Oct 7, 2017)

I like the Bestor 1.2K and Suhiro pair. But don't like the Bestor 400 at all. I could never find the sweet spot between too wet and too dry to use the stone effectively. Did find stone love with the JKI 400 and the JNS 300.


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## Benuser (Oct 7, 2017)

As you're in Europe get a Naniwa Pro 400. And depending on your budget a Naniwa Pro 3k or a Belgian Blue with it.


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## miggus (Oct 7, 2017)

Thank you both. I looked up the Belgian Blue, they seem to be in the 5k-6k range, filling the same spot as the Suehiro Rika 5k which I already have. Do you mean the Belgian Blue can (should) replace the 1k stone for standard sharpening tasks?


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## foody518 (Oct 7, 2017)

if you can get King Hyper 1000 (standard version) for a similar price to the Bester 1200, I would suggest going this route. More aggressive cutting speed and feel, still decent dish resistance (maybe the Bester is a bit better? it's been a while since I've used mine), good height/thickness of stone, and leaves a pretty good finish on core steel + cladding of sanmai wide bevel knives
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KING-Whetst...357185&hash=item3d2a5222de:g:B9cAAOSwXeJYGv8h this seems to be a good price for the stone. Slowmo shipping from Japan


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## Benuser (Oct 7, 2017)

miggus said:


> Thank you both. I looked up the Belgian Blue, they seem to be in the 5k-6k range, filling the same spot as the Suehiro Rika 5k which I already have. Do you mean the Belgian Blue can (should) replace the 1k stone for standard sharpening tasks?



Coming from a Naniwa Pro 400 your first aim should be reducing, and eventually getting rid of the fat burr a 400 stone leaves. A Belgian Blue is great in deburring. It's a bit old school, but use saliva instead of water to start with. And make sure the stone doesn't glaze, so roughen it to be more effective.


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## miggus (Oct 7, 2017)

I see! My idea was to use the 400 mostly for the Stainless knives which are mostly in need of a complete reset, and something 1kish as the main stone for maintaining my own knives. I should not need the 400 often for them, right? Or do you mean I should go with 400+ Belgian Blue instead of this?


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## Benuser (Oct 7, 2017)

If you have to deal with overly neglected soft stainless a Naniwa Pro 400 may even to be much too fine. Consider a Shapton Glass 220 or a simple carborundum stone to start with. But after the said 400, most will do with deburring on your green ScotchBrite sponge. Any further refinement is rather counterproductive with a soft steel embedding large carbides like Krupp's 4116. Stay very short on a Belgian Blue. Just very light longitudinal deburring. With finer stainless and carbons you may work much longer with them, and have more refined results.


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## miggus (Oct 7, 2017)

Thank you all again for your help. This is a lot of good new information.


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## Mute-on (Oct 8, 2017)

Since you already have the Rika 5000 (I have one. Great stone on stainless and carbon), I would just get the JNS 300 (splash & go) and JNS 800 (soak) or 1000 (splash & go) pair and be done. I have the JNS 800 and Rika 5000 in permasoak (with a Bester 1200). I still like the 1200 after the 800, but it's probably not necessary.

Enjoy the journey


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## miggus (Oct 8, 2017)

Mute-on said:


> Enjoy the journey


Thanks to all of you! For now, I'll go with the Bester 1200k. I guess that I could have agonized over the differences forever, since the other alternatives aren't 'worse' per se, but different. About the course stone, thinking some more I'll be. I sometimes feel more like getting a more affordable stone for the heavy lifting, since this won't be for the premium knives. And thanks Benuser for mentioning the Belgian Blue, it is only matter of time until I'll complement the Rika with one of these


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