# Yanagi is not 100% straight, ok?



## Ruso (Jul 5, 2014)

May be this is stupid but I am new to Yanagibas, I would like to hear more experienced opinions.
I just received my first yanagiba few hours ago. Even though I really like the feel and looks of it; I am not sure it's up to "standard". My impression was that with the length of 270mm it's should be pretty much flat, no bends.
However this one at about 2/3rds of the blade starts to bend upwards. The highest point is about 1.5 millimeters of the base. I was wondering if this is normal or should I bring it up with the vendor/craftsman. Will this affect the performance?


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## JBroida (Jul 5, 2014)

Probably worth fixing


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## Ruso (Jul 5, 2014)

Thanks for quick reply Jon. 
I followed up with the seller in regards...


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## JBroida (Jul 5, 2014)

lol... i was worried it was from me for a second. These things happen sometimes. They arent the end of the world. However, after a few years now, i've seen many people make the mistake of thinking fixing bends and warps like this are easy. It takes a lot of skill and experience to do well, so please make sure that whomever is doing this for you has that training, skill, and experience.


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## orange (Jul 5, 2014)

I have seen this kind of issue(?) with single-bevel knives. My tadatsuna honyaki yanagi is like that and masamoto ks hon deba is like that as well. I did not have any performance related issues with the knives because of it. Don't know if it's a real issue either.
When I looked at the knives carefully, it's not bent nor warped. It's just how they were ground. 
It appeared that, when grind was done for tapering of the thickness of blade, it's done with backside rather than front side toward the tip.


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## JBroida (Jul 5, 2014)

Honyaki knives should not feature this as much as clad knives, and are infinitely harder to fix. The problems are less in performance (though it does effect this) and more in long term sharpening. These issues will cause undesired and relatively unavoidable knife shape problems with repeated sharpening.

Taper is a different issue, but what i am seeing in the above pictures is warping.


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## LKH9 (Jul 5, 2014)

The Shimatani yanagiba I received from Metalmaster.jp is bent like this too, it went back to him a few weeks ago. I'm still yet to receive my replacement, even though Metalmaster replied that he already received my return parcel. :scratchhead:


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## dream816 (Jul 5, 2014)

Oh dear ... may I ask which brand is that yanagiba?


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## Seth (Jul 5, 2014)

My sword polishing book has a section on straightening. I've tried it and I probably wouldn't do it again; maybe on a practice knife. Just saying. It looks simple but, as Jon points out, is much more difficult to do correctly than it appears.


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## Ruso (Jul 7, 2014)

This is what I got from the seller after i inquired on the straightness:
_I checked your pictures.
I think it is normal. Our blade is tapered spine. You should put the center on the edge. Of course, our knives has these small gaps because of made by hand. We don't think it is problem to use.
And you can cancel the order, if you hope._

Does it seem like fumes in the eyes or not?


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## Korin_Mari (Jul 7, 2014)

The reason why this happens is because of a phenomenon called age hardening. Carbon will bend and warp after being forged due to the nature of the metal. Forgers resolved this problem by adding a thin strip of carbon to a thick piece of steel. Even if a knife is purchased in good straightened condition, both metals will naturally want to bend in opposite directions over time. There are knives that were poorly made and cannot be straighten well, and there are knives that can be straightened and used without a problem. However, it is pretty impossible for a knife to be completely straight and stay straight forever. All yanagi knives need to be straighten out by a professional every now and then. Some places offer this service for free, so you could try asking whoever you purchased from. Honyaki knives are MUCH harder (and scarier) to fix, so make sure whoever you ask to fix can do it well.


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## daveb (Jul 7, 2014)

Anecdotes like this are the reason I'm convinced that who you buy a knife from is as important as which knife you buy. 

Hope things get sorted out to your satisfaction.


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## dream816 (Jul 7, 2014)

Korin_Mari said:


> The reason why this happens is because of a phenomenon called age hardening. Carbon will bend and warp after being forged due to the nature of the metal. Forgers resolved this problem by adding a thin strip of carbon to a thick piece of steel. Even if a knife is purchased in good straightened condition, both metals will naturally want to bend in opposite directions over time. There are knives that were poorly made and cannot be straighten well, and there are knives that can be straightened and used without a problem. However, it is pretty impossible for a knife to be completely straight and stay straight forever. All yanagi knives need to be straighten out by a professional every now and then. Some places offer this service for free, so you could try asking whoever you purchased from. Honyaki knives are MUCH harder (and scarier) to fix, so make sure whoever you ask to fix can do it well.



Anything you can do to prevent that or is it something that is beyond your control?


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## Timthebeaver (Jul 7, 2014)

daveb said:


> who you buy a knife from is as important as which knife you buy.



+1

I think this is almost always lost in the maelstrom of steel, maker and flavour-of-the-month hype.


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## Ruso (Jul 7, 2014)

Thanks all for pitching in. So, from what I gather this type of "wrapping" is somewhat normal after certain period time. However this is a brand new knife so I am kinda disappointed to be honest. And paying more money to straighten is right off the bat does not seem right.



> Anecdotes like this are the reason I'm convinced that who you buy a knife from is as important as which knife you buy.
> 
> Hope things get sorted out to your satisfaction.



I totally agree with you, but AFIK no1 sells Watanabe in America/Europe except himself.


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## zitangy (Jul 7, 2014)

just a thought to verify the grinding on the hollow side. If it is grounded evenly. when sharpened flat, only the top of spine and the edge shld be shining. Wld be great if you would post such a picture

I am curious as to this aspect as if the grind on this side is not even, you will have wider flat areas near the spine area.. and some areas

IF it is indeed a grinding issue any respectable maker wld take it back and resolve with the reseller if applicable

So i think.

look fwd to your pics

caveat.. I am no expert but have sharpened a few yanagis and debas to notice this uneven grind on the ura side.. which is more common on the kasumi grade as opposed to honkasumi adn definitely not on a honyaki as afterall, they are supposed to be made by only the master craftsman.

rgds d


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## Korin_Mari (Jul 7, 2014)

dream816 said:


> Anything you can do to prevent that or is it something that is beyond your control?



It is beyond your control. Warping happens naturally and can also happen while sharpening too. But getting it straightened maybe once every year or two is enough, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.


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## Ruso (Jul 7, 2014)

Zitangy, I will post some pics later today when I get home

Korin_Mari, So you would keep it and straitened even though it's a brand new product?


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## Korin_Mari (Jul 7, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Zitangy, I will post some pics later today when I get home
> 
> Korin_Mari, So you would keep it and straitened even though it's a brand new product?



In this case since you just purchased it, you should ask them to replace it with a better and straighter one. I just wanted to explain why this happens and how all traditional Japanese knives bend even if it was once straight. (I hope that makes sense.)


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## Ruso (Jul 7, 2014)

Thanks Korin!

Pics of the back side of the blade:


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## Seth (Jul 7, 2014)

Since Mari is helping out, I would note that I did ask for a replacement on a yanagi from Mari and this was a trouble free issue - just to reinforce the importance of going to reputable sellers whenever possible.

My impression, and I could be wrong, is that kasumi yanigibas work a bit like old thermostats with the two materials reacting to temperature changes by expanding at different rates, therefore creating a curve. I have heard this as an explanation as to why either suminigashi (plywood) or a single material (honyaki) will be more stable. Maybe...


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## LKH9 (Jul 7, 2014)

The scientific explanation.

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/833280/tp/2/


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## orange (Jul 7, 2014)

I still don't understand why Ruso's knife is warped, now ground like that.

I have 10 slicers at home and only two Ikkanshi tadatsuna honyakies ( one made like 15 years ago and the other made 3 years ago) that I have show very similar issue. As both knives were made at different times show pretty much the same characteristics of shape, bevel ground, and etc, I have always thought the maker ground the knife like that and it is the maker's characteristics.
When I first got the knives, I did not see any issue on the shape of ura and have sharpened them repeatedly so far but have not observed any difference on the shape of ura over time either compared to other yanagis that do not have the issue.


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## zitangy (Jul 7, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Thanks Korin!
> 
> Pics of the back side of the blade:



tks for the pics.. a very even ura.. no high spots and so there goes my theory. 

It there is a warp.. there will be a portion that will not make contact with the stone ( knife to stone)

have you put the blade flat on a glass top with the handle sticking out? I do it to veriy that it is not warped.

I do not think that a distal taper is done on both sides

You have not mentioned as to whether you hv made attempts to have it returned.

good luck..

rgds
d


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## glestain (Jul 8, 2014)

Little bit off topic here. How about kitaeji or damascus type, overtime will it warp?


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## JBroida (Jul 8, 2014)

all clad knives will warp over time... there are factors that effect how much and how quickly, but its inevitable


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## glestain (Jul 8, 2014)

So it seems like a challenge for knife collector.


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## Ruso (Jul 8, 2014)

This is what I got back from the vendor. Looks like it's standard for his single bevel. 
_
We think the gap is no problem to use.
I have checked some Yanagi knives in stock. And every knives have the difference like your yanagi knife.
We never check the straightness on the table. We only check the straightness on the edge with eye. We think it is enough for kitchen knife._

He is open for the return but this mean I will take a loss in shipping twice. And I could of get Gesshin Hide for that price. Feels so lame 
BTW, I never had to return anything online before, is it a normal practice for the customer to pay shipping twice?

Thank you all for the help and interesting information.


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## glestain (Jul 8, 2014)

I don't know about the shipping. But would like to share this too:

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/18481-Inspection-of-new-knife


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## JBroida (Jul 8, 2014)

Ruso said:


> This is what I got back from the vendor. Looks like it's standard for his single bevel.
> _
> We think the gap is no problem to use.
> I have checked some Yanagi knives in stock. And every knives have the difference like your yanagi knife.
> ...



he's right about how straightness is checked in japan... everyone does it by eye, and more than 90% of the time, that is perfectly fine. There are a lot of factors to consider before returning something like that. Your knife may be perfectly functional or there may be problems. For me, its really hard to see from the pictures, but for what its worth, even more expensive knives have issues like that sometimes, and they arent always a problem. On the plus side, most of these kinds of things are fixable by skilled craftsmen.


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## Korin_Mari (Jul 8, 2014)

Ruso said:


> BTW, I never had to return anything online before, is it a normal practice for the customer to pay shipping twice?
> 
> Thank you all for the help and interesting information.



If the vendor feels that there is no major issue, they may ask for the return shipping fee. Returns and exchanges on products is also not a part of the Japanese norm. Unless there is some obvious/major imperfection that both sides acknowledge, stores won't accept it.


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## mhlee (Jul 8, 2014)

Ruso said:


> This is what I got back from the vendor. Looks like it's standard for his single bevel.
> _
> We think the gap is no problem to use.
> I have checked some Yanagi knives in stock. And every knives have the difference like your yanagi knife.
> ...



Just another reason to buy from a reputable seller that offers support for its products, rather than trying to save a little money on a potentially inferior product from a vendor that doesn't offer good customer service or support for its products.


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## Ruso (Jul 8, 2014)

> he's right about how straightness is checked in japan... everyone does it by eye, and more than 90% of the time, that is perfectly fine. There are a lot of factors to consider before returning something like that. Your knife may be perfectly functional or there may be problems. For me, its really hard to see from the pictures, but for what its worth, even more expensive knives have issues like that sometimes, and they arent always a problem. On the plus side, most of these kinds of things are fixable by skilled craftsmen.


Point taken, however I do not know any skilled craftsman in my area to asset the knife and/or give me a quote on the repair. Plus it's kinda silly to repair a brand new item, I think, 



> Just another reason to buy from a reputable seller that offers support for its products, rather than trying to save a little money on a potentially inferior product from a vendor that doesn't offer good customer service or support for its products.



As I mentioned earlier it's a Watanbe knife and he seems to have quite good reputation. And besides, I am not aware of any other resellers of his work.


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## JBroida (Jul 8, 2014)

@ruso what do you think most wholesalers in japan are doing when they get knives like what you see? Everyone, including myself, fixes stuff like this all day long. Its part of our job.


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## Ruso (Jul 8, 2014)

Jon, I was pretty certain that you can fix it. However I did not think this is common for wholesalers to do it since my assumption was that they get merchandise that have passed some sort of QC. 
However, and really unfortunate for me, you are not located near by. We are in different countries and sending the Yanagi your way will cost me even more than back to Japan; believe it or not  Also that's prevent me of buying more goodies from you (fortunate for my wife I guess )

The only one place I can think of here is Tosho, I will see what they say in terms of fixing it. But again, I am not too fond of fix brand new items, leaves a bitter taste....


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## JBroida (Jul 8, 2014)

things do pass QC for sure... but bending is a very easy to fix problem. Anyways, consider this...

All clad blades warp... even honyaki blades warp during sharpening. They must be fixed. So the craftsmen fix the bends, warps, and twists. Some that are beyond normal means are discarded (but this standard will vary depending on what line they are making, and for whom). Then, the knives go to retailers or wholesalers, who, in turn, perform QC and do the same thing (to the best of their means... which is often less than the craftsmen in a significant way, but not always). Then it gets sold. Even then, over time, when the knife is sharpened, it will need to be straightened. Its just the way it is.

-Jon


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## Ruso (Jul 8, 2014)

Thanks Jon it's pretty interesting to see how knives get from manufacture to the customer. 
A question for you. As a seller would you offer a free straightening service or a replacement if somebody brought you attention to a similar problem on one of "your" brand new knife. Based on you first posts it gave me an impression that you would certainly do.

What bugs me the most, that Watanabe says that is normal. If it looked somewhat weird to me, and you guys, with much more knowledge and experience, say that the blade has to be fixed (hence not the norm/ideal condition), it hard to believe he honestly thinks it's just fine. It does feel like I am getting ripped off little bit May be I am wrong here, then I am just a discontent customer. 

May be his assumption is that everyone can/will straighten their new blade on their own, similar to creating an edge. Then, perhaps I've chosen poorly.  

But this to many "may be".


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## orange (Jul 9, 2014)

When I was somewhat new to a yanagi, I experienced a few yanagis I had bowed after sharpening sessions at different times. As I did not have much knife knowledge back then, I was surprised and felt that I got scammed by getting either faulty or 2nd-grade knives from reputable makers. So, I fully understand your feeling.

However, despite of others opinion about the blade, to my eyes, your Watanabe is ground like that as a part of tapering and I am not sure if it is a problem. 
As I mentioned, my tadatsuna honyakis are like that but I have not experienced any functional deficiency because of it.
And as you start using the knife and acquiring proper techniques of using a yanagi, you may soon find yourself shaping the knife in the way you want (thinning the blade, changing the shape of blade path or the shape of edge, etc) and the issue you have now may turn out no big deal to you as well.
Moreover, you can easily bend the knife to make it flat on the backside if you wish. Just google "how to fix a bent kitchen knife" and you will see a video for how to do it with your hands and a flat surface. I straightened my bent yanagis in the same way before. Of course, when I first had to do it, I was scared of breaking it or hurting myself.  

If you are uncomfortable for doing it and only going to use the knife few times a year as a show to family and friends, don't torture yourself and just return it as you have an option of doing so now. Think about it though; What if the blade is flat on the backside now but becomes bent sometime later, what would you do then??


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## JBroida (Jul 9, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Thanks Jon it's pretty interesting to see how knives get from manufacture to the customer.
> A question for you. As a seller would you offer a free straightening service or a replacement if somebody brought you attention to a similar problem on one of "your" brand new knife. Based on you first posts it gave me an impression that you would certainly do.
> 
> What bugs me the most, that Watanabe says that is normal. If it looked somewhat weird to me, and you guys, with much more knowledge and experience, say that the blade has to be fixed (hence not the norm/ideal condition), it hard to believe he honestly thinks it's just fine. It does feel like I am getting ripped off little bit May be I am wrong here, then I am just a discontent customer.
> ...



probably, but i would have to see how severe it was. More often than not, however, i just fix things. That being said, the way i deal with things like this is not the same as they way i would expect this to be dealt with in japan. To be honest, even the level of care people expect in honbadzuke here is greater than what is expected/normal in japan.

Aside from the above comment, i dont really want to say much more. There are a lot of factors on both sides of this, and i dont feel right making any rigid assessment of the situation.


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## osakajoe (Jul 9, 2014)

As the seller said all Japanese hand forged blades are not all the same. You have one guy who is the forger and only the forger. One guy who is only the grinder. One guy who is only the handle maker. So your knife guys through a few guys before its completed. there blades can get damaged anywhere in between these processes. As far as whether the blade was forged properly, its usually the grinder who can tell whether or not the forger forged the blade properly since he is the one actually sharpening the knife. 

As far as your knife, Small bends like that are not that uncommon and easy to fix if its a good quality knife. Like the others said honyaki are much much harder and not advised to be messing around with to fix. 

A simple wooden device with certain grooves and slots cut into it. thiis can help straighten blades by place the knife in the grooved slots and slightly applying pressure to bend the blade in the direction you want. i can post pictures of the straigtner tomorrow.


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## zitangy (Jul 9, 2014)

The way I see it.. your options open are as follows:-

a) Watanabe offers to fix it at the cost of shipment both ways which in his eyes is generous enough; rightly or wrongly. THus if you must have a perfect knife.. _I wld send it back adn swallow the cost of shipping and be happy with the knife and enjoy it._ and get a brand new one (replacement)and wait it necessary

b) Getting it fixed by a trusted vendor: there is still a most which can be the same as the shipping cost. but then again you may not be pleased with the outcome... a little dicey.

c) fixing it yourself.. may a a source of joy if you achieve it.

I still cant determine from the pic whether the left side is tapered as opposed to it being flat as based on my understanding it shld be for a straight pull cut 

IF so, unless i am sadly mistaken, thats not the way it should be.

At the end of the day... as a honyaki buyer you shld be pleased with the item.. and able to enjoy it when it delivers in terms of performance and not be clouded that it is not a perfect piece when you got it.

Finally..decide wisely for yrself. I chose to live with a broken tip of a Honyaki sword tip l when it was delivered to me. sanded it over over a few sessions.. and it is still work in progress after a few years! 

A bent knife will not cut straight obviously and a flat side with a distal may not be able to serve its intended purpose; unless they are all made that way.. of which this wld a revelation to me. 

*Bent knife during sharpening?* it can't just happen by itself. I can only speculate that for it for it to happen during sharpening is when the pressure is near tip area from left hand and right hand pressure via thumb and possibly also index finger is on the choil area and doing long strokes and in the process bending it backwards ( ura side). 

Have fun and rgds
d


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## JBroida (Jul 9, 2014)

osakajoe said:


> As the seller said all Japanese hand forged blades are not all the same. You have one guy who is the forger and only the forger. One guy who is only the grinder. One guy who is only the handle maker. So your knife guys through a few guys before its completed. there blades can get damaged anywhere in between these processes. As far as whether the blade was forged properly, its usually the grinder who can tell whether or not the forger forged the blade properly since he is the one actually sharpening the knife.
> 
> As far as your knife, Small bends like that are not that uncommon and easy to fix if its a good quality knife. Like the others said honyaki are much much harder and not advised to be messing around with to fix.
> 
> A simple wooden device with certain grooves and slots cut into it. thiis can help straighten blades by place the knife in the grooved slots and slightly applying pressure to bend the blade in the direction you want. i can post pictures of the straigtner tomorrow.


true for sakai, but not sanjo, where this knife is from (with regard to the way craftsmen work). In sanjo, you see that the blacksmith and sharpener are the same person more of then than not.


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## orange (Jul 9, 2014)

zitangy said:


> *Bent knife during sharpening?* it can't just happen by itself. I can only speculate that for it for it to happen during sharpening is when the pressure is near tip area from left hand and right hand pressure via thumb and possibly also index finger is on the choil area and doing long strokes and in the process bending it backwards ( ura side).
> 
> Have fun and rgds
> d



The bending of my kobayashi and masamoto happened during sharpening sessions in winter; I was sharpening the knives late at night in the kitchen with tap water running.
I exposed the blades to kind of "hot" running tap water directly on the knives and stones as my hand was cold. I recall that the blades became hot enough that I could not touch it with my fingers near the tip area but blades became cool quickly. So, during the sharpening sessions the blades went through hot/cold cycles until I noticed the bending. As hagane/jigane have different thermal expansion coeff., I have been under the impression that the hot water might have caused the bending.
Anyway, since the experience of the bending, I only use warm water in winter and never let the blades to become hot. I have never experienced any more bending of a blade since.
By the way, I don't do the long stoke...only section by section.


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## zitangy (Jul 10, 2014)

Hey

thanks for relating yr experience and trouble to isolate the probable cause. IT also means that Kasumi knives shld also not be washed with really hot water.

a)It got me to searching for the wide stone that I bought a long time ago ( almost twice the normal width of a Naniwa stone) to obviate the said possibility of bending issue on a narrow stone.

b) also to focus sharpening on areas just under the fingers.

rgds
d


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## Ruso (Jul 10, 2014)

Thanks again all for the input. It's becoming quite an interesting and informative thread.


> a) Watanabe offers to fix it at the cost of shipment both ways which in his eyes is generous enough; rightly or wrongly. THus if you must have a perfect knife.. I wld send it back adn swallow the cost of shipping and be happy with the knife and enjoy it. and get a brand new one (replacement)and wait it necessary
> 
> b) Getting it fixed by a trusted vendor: there is still a most which can be the same as the shipping cost. but then again you may not be pleased with the outcome... a little dicey.
> 
> c) fixing it yourself.. may a a source of joy if you achieve it.



There is no option A, since Watanabe never offered to fix it or replace it. I asked him if he can ship me a straighter knife to which he replied "no", and that few knives he checked are like this. In additon he state several times that this is not a and issue and this is just a kitchen tool not a precision instrument. Quite disappointing to hear that from a craftsman. I guess that explains few things as well 
However he did offer to refund the knife if I ship it back. Also he did not agree to compensate the cost of straightening ~$15 which I though would be middle ground. But again, I can't blame him since he finds that everything is alright.

I thought about b and c, but I just know that I would not enjoy the knife anymore after so much frustration. So I decided to return it.
And dang, another roadblock. Cheapest tracked option to send to Japan from Canada is $80. The "economical one" is $23 but no tracking and no warranties. 
Did anybody used international none trackable shipping methods, if so how was it?

btw zitangy, I am not sure where did you get that the knife is Honyaki, its a san-mai with White #2 core. 

P.S. At this point I am cursing the day I checked the straightness, if I would not I would be a happy camper


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## osakajoe (Jul 10, 2014)

Here are the pictures I said I'd upload.


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## LKH9 (Jul 10, 2014)

The standard is that low for a reputable craftsman? Wow. "Just a kitchen knife"... Seriously, if he wants to do business internationally, he has to adapt to the higher requirement!


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## orange (Jul 11, 2014)

Ruso said:


> P.S. At this point I am cursing the day I checked the straightness, if I would not I would be a happy camper



Whether or not you checked the knife on a flat surface for its straightness, the knife has been the same all along....only your brain put you in frustration, otherwise, being a happy camper.
This is why Buddhism teaches us happiness is in our head.


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## LKH9 (Jul 11, 2014)

orange said:


> Whether or not you checked the knife on a flat surface for its straightness, the knife has been the same all along....only your brain put you in frustration, otherwise, being a happy camper.
> This is why Buddhism teaches us happiness is in our head.



That Buddhism philosophy is very true, but some people like me just can't achieve that level! Being a perfectionist only gives frustration, but what can we do about it??

I'm totally in the same situation as OP, got a bent yanagi, face instantly turned sad the moment I notice the imperfection.


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## olpappy (Jul 11, 2014)

is the edge any straighter than the spine? Can you take pics of the edge next to a plate glass?


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## Squilliam (Jul 11, 2014)

Honestly just try to bend it back with your fingers, a padded vice or one of those wooden sticks. It doesn't look like a complex bend.

To me it seems that a mountain has been made from a mole hill and now you're feeling uneasy about the knife, when 5 minutes of work in the beginning would have fixed the whole thing.


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## LKH9 (Jul 12, 2014)

Squilliam said:


> Honestly just try to bend it back with your fingers, a padded vice or one of those wooden sticks. It doesn't look like a complex bend.
> 
> To me it seems that a mountain has been made from a mole hill and now you're feeling uneasy about the knife, when 5 minutes of work in the beginning would have fixed the whole thing.



This is not as easy as it sounds. Otherwise, you won't need to pays the masters to fix these stuff. Have you done this before yourself?


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## osakajoe (Jul 12, 2014)

Squilliam said:


> Honestly just try to bend it back with your fingers, a padded vice or one of those wooden sticks. It doesn't look like a complex bend.
> 
> To me it seems that a mountain has been made from a mole hill and now you're feeling uneasy about the knife, when 5 minutes of work in the beginning would have fixed the whole thing.



I agree. I've fixed many blades like this.


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## Squilliam (Jul 12, 2014)

I have straightened a 300mm mono steel suji, a deferentially hardened usuba I made and heat treated, as well as two Tanaka damascus clad blades (stainless and carbon) and one of those Korean knives which was as bent, twisted, warped and asymmetric as possible. Obviously I'm not an expert but fixing bends isn't always difficult, especially on a blade laminated to iron as it doesn't spring back so much.

With such a minor bend over a long knife, as long as the heat treat wasn't terrible there isn't much that can go wrong if a sensible person tries to fix it themselves.
Like sharpening their own knives, straightening bends is something most people are too scared to do and never attempt despite it being fairly straightforward.


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## Ruso (Jul 12, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> The standard is that low for a reputable craftsman? Wow. "Just a kitchen knife"... Seriously, if he wants to do business internationally, he has to adapt to the higher requirement!



My thoughts exactly. If I want just a kitchen knife I can go to the wall mart. If I want a quality product and something more unique I will look are reputable craftsman. Why else he thinks people buy knives from thousands miles away from him. 



> Honestly just try to bend it back with your fingers, a padded vice or one of those wooden sticks. It doesn't look like a complex bend.
> 
> To me it seems that a mountain has been made from a mole hill and now you're feeling uneasy about the knife, when 5 minutes of work in the beginning would have fixed the whole thing.



Honestly, it's not about how easy it is or not. I could of pay local shop $15 to fix it as well. And I could of live very perfectly with it. I was thinking just doing so. But Watanabe attitude to this issue just ruined it all for me. Seems like he just does not care and plays dumb. I am pretty sure as long as it's not broken in half he will say it is okay....
So yeah, I don't want deal with him anymore or have any of his products.


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## Dave Martell (Jul 12, 2014)

I didn't read the entire thread but I'm curios if this was purchased directly from Watanabe or through a retailer?


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## Ruso (Jul 12, 2014)

Dave Martell said:


> I didn't read the entire thread but I'm curios if this was purchased directly from Watanabe or through a retailer?



Direct from Wanatabe. Based on his website info he does not sell through retailers anymore, just direct.


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## LKH9 (Jul 12, 2014)

Reputation level decreased by 9000 points. Without "Satisfaction Guaranteed" policy, he can just **** off from international trade.

Ya, the main problem is that the knife is not cheap and is BRAND NEW! And if the brand new knife gets ruined by the first fix attempt, then how?


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## ecchef (Jul 13, 2014)

I never really dealt with Malaysian craftspeople. Is '100% satisfaction guaranteed' a standard practice there? Do you have a link to Malaysian knife makers? I would like to try one out.


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## LKH9 (Jul 13, 2014)

ecchef said:


> I never really dealt with Malaysian craftspeople. Is '100% satisfaction guaranteed' a standard practice there? Do you have a link to Malaysian knife makers? I would like to try one out.



That's the quality we expect from renowned countries like Japan, US, and Europe. Nope, Malaysian makes crap products. Don't expect anything good coming from this country, otherwise, we won't have to import.

I always seem to see this Watanabe stuff on the net, it seems famous, but this case is truly shocking. It's not a cheap product.


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## olpappy (Jul 15, 2014)

I have corrected bends on several of my knives quite easily. You should at least give it a try before deciding it's something you can't do yourself.


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## vai777 (Jul 24, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Thanks Korin!
> 
> Pics of the back side of the blade:



Looks like a Watanabe... it happens, happened to my Watanabe takohiki... badly...


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## vai777 (Jul 24, 2014)

PS... It will continue to move...


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## LKH9 (Jul 25, 2014)

Paying $300 for a bent yanagi is just not reasonable, which also cannot be replaced with a proper one. I think this Watanabe guy is overrated.


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## vai777 (Jul 25, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> Paying $300 for a bent yanagi is just not reasonable, which also cannot be replaced with a proper one. I think this Watanabe guy is overrated.



Yeah I have heard the same... the steel gets wicked sharp, but I did have the warping issue. I was able to straighten mine and it cuts very well, but what he needs to do is let those blades sit for months, even years before he finishes them. This way they will have moved all they are going to (at least 95% of what they are going to) and the finished product would not need additional repairs. On the other hand you can just go and get a Masamoto KK series and be done with it... BEST YANAGI FOR THE MONEY.


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## dream816 (Jul 26, 2014)

vai777 said:


> Yeah I have heard the same... the steel gets wicked sharp, but I did have the warping issue. I was able to straighten mine and it cuts very well, but what he needs to do is let those blades sit for months, even years before he finishes them. This way they will have moved all they are going to (at least 95% of what they are going to) and the finished product would not need additional repairs. On the other hand you can just go and get a Masamoto KK series and be done with it... BEST YANAGI FOR THE MONEY.



Have you used a Masamoto KK series knife? Why is it the best bang for bucks?

I use Masamoto KS series knives but has never used any other brands of traditional Japanese knife. I always wonder how it matches up and in what way is it better or worse.


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## Ruso (Jul 26, 2014)

A little update on this.
I returned it back, had to swallow $80 shipping (Canada Post sux). Since Watanabe says he does not see what is wrong with the knife he would not reimburse any shipping (here or back). I am definitely not purchasing anything else from him.
And with such variety of knives, nothing much is missed. 

Now, I am back in to square one for my first Yanagiba pursuit.

BTW thanks all for giving your ideas, suggestions, support and sharing the knowledge.


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## vai777 (Jul 26, 2014)

Ruso said:


> A little update on this.
> I returned it back, had to swallow $80 shipping (Canada Post sux). Since Watanabe says he does not see what is wrong with the knife he would not reimburse any shipping (here or back). I am definitely not purchasing anything else from him.
> And with such variety of knives, nothing much is missed.
> 
> ...



I'd check in with Koki at JCK and see what he can do... The Masamoto KK for "cheap" user Yanagi is great buy


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## CutFingers (Jul 26, 2014)

I think you will have trouble finding a knife if you spend time scrutinizing the visual imperfections of a hand forged blade. If you insist on checking for straightness of the blade use a piece of tuna and see how it cuts


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## vai777 (Jul 26, 2014)

CutFingers said:


> I think you will have trouble finding a knife if you spend time scrutinizing the visual imperfections of a hand forged blade. If you insist on checking for straightness of the blade use a piece of tuna and see how it cuts



This is true as I have seen very high end knives that aren't perfectly straight as well. However in this case, this seems to be an ongoing issue with the maker. I have seen this type of post before and I have had a Watanabe do the same to me. I've also had a Mizuno Tanrenjo (2 actually) do the same. The makers I've never seen this from are Shigefusa, Doi, and Masmoto (though with the volume of masamotos out there, there are bound to be a few). The only solution here is to hand inspect the knife before you buy it, or if buying online ask the seller to make sure the blade is dead straight. Other than that it can be a crap shoot.


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## Ruso (Jul 26, 2014)

CutFingers said:


> I think you will have trouble finding a knife if you spend time scrutinizing the visual imperfections of a hand forged blade. If you insist on checking for straightness of the blade use a piece of tuna and see how it cuts


Not like I have a huge collection, but this was the first knife that is not straight and I have items from various makers. If the knife would be little bit shorter or longer, or machi gap is not completely as advertised that's fine on a hand forged blade, some other minor imperfections are fine with me. But common, its not damn straight.
It looks like the main point why I returned gone lost in 7 pages, its not just because yanagi was not 100% straight, it was because of Watanabe's attitude when I incurred about this "issue".



> I'd check in with Koki at JCK and see what he can do... The Masamoto KK for "cheap" user Yanagi is great buy


If I go with Masamoto I will most likely end up with KS series. I kinda bumped my budget to ~$400


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## vai777 (Jul 26, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Not like I have a huge collection, but this was the first knife that is not straight and I have items from various makers. If the knife would be little bit shorter or longer, or machi gap is not completely as advertised that's fine on a hand forged blade, some other minor imperfections are fine with me. But common, its not damn straight.
> It looks like the main point why I returned gone lost in 7 pages, its not just because yanagi was not 100% straight, it was because of Watanabe's attitude when I incurred about this "issue".
> 
> 
> If I go with Masamoto I will most likely end up with KS series. I kinda bumped my budget to ~$400




KS will be easier to sharpen... KK needs to be "opened up" a little more... same knife though


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## LKH9 (Jul 26, 2014)

Ruso said:


> Not like I have a huge collection, but this was the first knife that is not straight and I have items from various makers. If the knife would be little bit shorter or longer, or machi gap is not completely as advertised that's fine on a hand forged blade, some other minor imperfections are fine with me. But common, its not damn straight.
> It looks like the main point why I returned gone lost in 7 pages, its not just because yanagi was not 100% straight, it was because of Watanabe's attitude when I incurred about this "issue".



I feel the same. Longer / shorter or inconsistent handle gap is just fine. But saying "it's just a kitchen knife" just sux, if the Yanagi is a cheap one like Yamawaku, then it's completely fine, for the price. Boycott this Watanabe.:no:


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## Bluebird814 (Jul 26, 2014)

Its problem always afflicts us. 

Although I am not a blacksmith, when I sell them, in order to avoid a foregin customer's disappointment, I am inspecting them one by one. 
There are very few knives which I picked up. 
Furthermore, they has a risk of turning by time progress. 

Then, are the knives which I did not pick up defective product? 
I don't think so.
In fact, they are sold in Japan as a genuine product.
I think that a slight bend does not affect the usual use, and since the pro-chefs knows those characteristics, it is fixed by themselves(expect HONYAKI).

Not almost all knives are for $3000 and a blacksmith is making as not for a collection but a tool.


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## Bluebird814 (Jul 26, 2014)

expect HONYAKI &#8594;&#12288;except HONYAKI...lol.


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## daveb (Jul 26, 2014)

Bluebird, Thanks for a well reasoned perspective. It appears there are no winners here.


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## insomniac (Jul 26, 2014)

I agree with bluebird... the knife is designed to be used and not looked at. it sounds like you've not made any effort to try to use or sharpen it and have no idea if there is any impact. no vendor or smith here has been able to offer you solid advice whether you should spend to fix it or leave as a result of that either.

the knife is designed to cut well and not specifically to sit flat on a table... if it really cannot cut straight or cannot be sharpened then there's a real issue.

wabi sabi, anyone


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## LKH9 (Jul 26, 2014)

I personally believe that when your making a real big cut, you know, the time when you really need to use the whole length for the slice. A bent yanagiba like that will not cut a straight line perfectly. I believe..:dontknow:

Maybe that crooked yanagiba can be used for removing fish scales as well.:hungry:


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## Ruso (Jul 26, 2014)

> no vendor or smith here has been able to offer you solid advice whether you should spend to fix it or leave as a result of that either.


Ummmm, I think it was quite clear after first two pages that it's better to fix it. Did we read the same thread? 



> it sounds like you've not made any effort to try to use or sharpen it and have no idea if there is any impact.


Live thought me that if something is ought to be return you better no use it, or alter in any way. That's why the post here to understand things better.



> I feel the same. Longer / shorter or inconsistent handle gap is just fine. But saying "it's just a kitchen knife" just sux, if the Yanagi is a cheap one like Yamawaku, then it's completely fine, for the price. Boycott this Watanabe.


Yep, we are on the same page lus1:


Bluebird814, looks like you understand the foreign market quite well. Kudos!


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## LKH9 (Jul 26, 2014)

I totally feel you coz I returned such bent yanagiba back to Metalmaster some time ago and he said he already sent a new knife to me, I asked him about the tracking number, he didn't reply for a few days. I think I'm screwed, I'm crossing my fingers and wait.:dontknow:


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## Squilliam (Jul 27, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> I totally feel you coz I returned such bent yanagiba back to Metalmaster some time ago and he said he already sent a new knife to me, I asked him about the tracking number, he didn't reply for a few days. I think I'm screwed, I'm crossing my fingers and wait.:dontknow:



Metalmaster often doesn't reply for quite a while, don't worry about it.


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## vai777 (Jul 27, 2014)

You know I just checked my Watanabe, and it had moved AGAIN...lol. I did manage to straighten it, but only probably because it's a 240 Takohiki, the longer blades are a little more difficult. Mind you this knife had been sitting for about 2 years...


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## dream816 (Jul 27, 2014)

vai777 said:


> You know I just checked my Watanabe, and it had moved AGAIN...lol. I did manage to straighten it, but only probably because it's a 240 Takohiki, the longer blades are a little more difficult. Mind you this knife had been sitting for about 2 years...



does keeping the knife in a good-fitting saya or place some heavy weight on it help at all? sorry, probably an ignorant question ... :scratchhead:


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## vai777 (Jul 27, 2014)

dream816 said:


> does keeping the knife in a good-fitting saya or place some heavy weight on it help at all? sorry, probably an ignorant question ... :scratchhead:



You know tight fitting saya would probably help... this one doesn't have one. As far as placing something heavy on it... yeah that would work too... but you also risk damaging the blade with that. I wonder if putting it in the lower end of a large phone book (or any large book) would work? Though honesty this shouldn't have to be done. My masamoto has been just as dormant and it is still dead straight. I imagine the jigane Watanabe uses may be the culprit here.


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## dream816 (Jul 27, 2014)

vai777 said:


> You know tight fitting saya would probably help... this one doesn't have one. As far as placing something heavy on it... yeah that would work too... but you also risk damaging the blade with that. I wonder if putting it in the lower end of a large phone book (or any large book) would work? Though honesty this shouldn't have to be done. My masamoto has been just as dormant and it is still dead straight. I imagine the jigane Watanabe uses may be the culprit here.



I checked my masamoto KS and HA yanagiba and they are dead straight as well. you maybe right about the jigane that Watanabe uses ...


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## vai777 (Jul 27, 2014)

yeah my Masamoto is the KK.... and even that has never budged an inch


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## Ruso (Jul 27, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> I totally feel you coz I returned such bent yanagiba back to Metalmaster some time ago and he said he already sent a new knife to me, I asked him about the tracking number, he didn't reply for a few days. I think I'm screwed, I'm crossing my fingers and wait.:dontknow:



I hope your situation will get resolve soon in favorable manner.



> You know tight fitting saya would probably help... this one doesn't have one.


Yep, does not come with one. A matching saya from him would run another $100


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## Tall Dark and Swarfy (Jul 27, 2014)

When you say "matching" does that mean the saya is also crooked? :whistling:


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## vai777 (Jul 27, 2014)

Tall Dark and Swarfy said:


> When you say "matching" does that mean the saya is also crooked? :whistling:



lol


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## JBroida (Jul 27, 2014)

For what its worth, ALL clad knives have a tendency to warp (honyaki knives are much less likely, except during the making process)

here are factors that effect warping:
-ni-mai knives are more likely to warp than san-mai
-the type of cladding that is used can effect the speed of warping
-the post hot forging handling of the steel can effect warping
-the cold forging of the steel can effect warping
-how long the steel rests post forging and post sharpening will effect warping
-local environmental conditions (i.e. weather, humidity, etc.) can effect warping

Correcting warping is a normal part of knife maintenance. Also having one blade that hasnt warped is not a sign that an entire series does not warp.


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## vai777 (Jul 27, 2014)

JBroida said:


> For what its worth, ALL clad knives have a tendency to warp (honyaki knives are much less likely, except during the making process)
> 
> here are factors that effect warping:
> -ni-mai knives are more likely to warp than san-mai
> ...



True but I've never seen a new Masamoto single bevel that was warped, I handled a ton at Korin when I went there. Also never read a thread about one being warped either...


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## JBroida (Jul 27, 2014)

I have... quite a few actually. And i repair warps on them all of the time. Both masamoto sohonten and masamoto tsukiji. I also know that they tend to warp less, but it doesnt mean it doesnt happen... also, just because you havent seen a warped one doesnt mean they arent warping... it just means someone is on top of making sure they are straight.


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## vai777 (Jul 27, 2014)

JBroida said:


> I have... quite a few actually. And i repair warps on them all of the time. Both masamoto sohonten and masamoto tsukiji. I also know that they tend to warp less, but it doesnt mean it doesnt happen... also, just because you havent seen a warped one doesnt mean they arent warping... it just means someone is on top of making sure they are straight.




Interesting.... Thankfully my Doi knives have NEVER moved... not even the 420MM. I know this movement seems to be inherent in the design / making of the blade, but I also think that there are certain makers whose knives warp more severely and more often than others... even at the same price point.


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## JBroida (Jul 27, 2014)

some of this relates to how makers do the yakimodoshi process (which can vary widely and is also not usually something the makers are willing to talk about, as it relates to their proprietary way of doing things)


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## dream816 (Jul 27, 2014)

JBroida said:


> For what its worth, ALL clad knives have a tendency to warp (honyaki knives are much less likely, except during the making process)
> 
> here are factors that effect warping:
> -ni-mai knives are more likely to warp than san-mai
> ...



Thanks, Jon ... that's very good information.


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## LKH9 (Aug 1, 2014)

Squilliam said:


> Metalmaster often doesn't reply for quite a while, don't worry about it.



I've just received his replacement, totally satisfied now. Now that is one good vendor and also a good craftsman.


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## Squilliam (Aug 1, 2014)

*Edit:* Ignore this I see Jon already mentioned it in a previous post.

I could be wrong but I think some makers store the forged blades for a couple of years before grinding to allow for further conversion of retained austenite. I assume that the longer a knife waits, the less it warps for the customer.


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