# Coticule help



## cotedupy (Apr 11, 2021)

If, hypothetically, I was thinking about spending more money on things I don't really need... would anyone be able to recommend a good online shop / vendor for Belgian Coticules?


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## Slim278 (Apr 11, 2021)

Maybe try this.
The company's history | Ardennes-Coticule (ardennes-coticule.be)


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## KingShapton (Apr 11, 2021)

No problem  



Ardennes-Coticule | Belgian Sharpening Stones











Schleifstein Deluxe- Original Belgischer Brocken online kaufen


Schleifsteine Deluxe✓Belgischer Brocken by Steffen Lindner® Online Shop.✓25 Jahre Garantie✓schneller Versand ► Jetzt online bestellen!




www.belgischerbrocken.de





Also take a look at the "natural combination stones", the coticule layer is naturally grown with the Belgian Blue Whetstone layer.

With hybrid stones of this type, the Belgian Blue side should be a little finer than normal. That's just something I've read a lot, but from different sources. And you definitely have 2 different stones for your money.


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## KingShapton (Apr 11, 2021)

I have 2 more tips for you. But I have to say that I have no experience with the following two shops.









Sharpening Stones


Essential to the straight razor shave is a keen and smooth edge which must be polished to perfection with a multitude of various natural and man made hones. We are firm believers in honing on traditional natural stones and we strive to furnish the finest the world has to offer.




www.griffithshavinggoods.com





The following shop is interesting if you are looking for extraordinary Coticules. And they have other unusual stones ...






Les Coticules | 1STONE


Toutes les coticules que nous vous proposons et dont la renommée n'est plus à faire se trouvent ici. En somme, une exceptionelle sélection de pierres.




www.1stone.fr





Both shops are more in the razor sector. Just note, as svhon said, I have no experience with the two shops. But maybe they are interesting for you ?!


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## branwell (Apr 11, 2021)

This might not be useful info but...... If you are thinking of Belgians for kitchen knives, they leave very very keen edges that are great for fileting fish ( and shaving ), but they have pretty much no bite so as soon as the initial edge dulls.......


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## cotedupy (Apr 11, 2021)

Thanks all for the pointers, I had no idea they had such a beautiful variety of pattern!

And thank you @branwell that is useful to know actually. I was going to do some research on that kind've thing before making a decision, as I don't know a massive amount about them. And I do prefer edges erring on the side of toothy over refined, so it sounds like perhaps like it might not be for me, and slightly too expensive for a gamble / experiment.

But aren't they pretty!


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## KingShapton (Apr 12, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> And I do prefer edges erring on the side of toothy over refined


With this information I would advise against Coticules and Belgian Blue.

Finding a suitable stone that creates bite is very difficult. And as you said, the stones are too expensive for this type of lottery.

You could of course ask for a suitable stone by email at the first two shops I mentioned. But I fear that it will be very expensive then.

Most of the time, a suitable specimen is a lucky hit. I bought a Belgian Blue on ebay, this stone is harder than normal and finer. And to my great pleasure he leaves something bite. But that was really a lucky coincidence.

But they are really pretty stones, I agree with you.

By the way, we're in the same camp - I also prefer toothy over refind.


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## demcav (Apr 12, 2021)

I use a Belgian Coticule for straight razor sharpening -- bought it through The Perfect Edge here in the US:






Belgian Stones – The Perfect Edge







theperfectedge.com


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## branwell (Apr 12, 2021)

KingShapton said:


> With this information I would advise against Coticules and Belgian Blue.
> 
> Finding a suitable copy that creates bite is very difficult. And as you said, the stones are too expensive for this type of lottery.
> 
> ...



That said, if you use a little diamond plate to raise some mud, which in this case is a slurry of garnets, very cool in itself , they feel awesome to sharpen on. If you where to mix in some say Aoto into that slurry, you might end up with a pretty cool edge. 

Slurry mixing is a lot of fun. Endless combinations that result in really unique edges, some of which are amazing. One of my favorite combos is a Rika 5K stone with Meara slurry mixed in.


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## captaincaed (Apr 12, 2021)

Online Products — Seattle Edge 
I don't know that he has yellow on the site now, but regularly does in the shop. US seller.


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## Desert Rat (Apr 13, 2021)

Natural Stones (sharpeningsupplies.com) 

I have one of their 8 x 2. They are also a good source for arks.


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## childermass (Jul 29, 2021)

branwell said:


> This might not be useful info but...... If you are thinking of Belgians for kitchen knives, they leave very very keen edges that are great for fileting fish ( and shaving ), but they have pretty much no bite so as soon as the initial edge dulls.......





cotedupy said:


> Thanks all for the pointers, I had no idea they had such a beautiful variety of pattern!
> 
> And thank you @branwell that is useful to know actually. I was going to do some research on that kind've thing before making a decision, as I don't know a massive amount about them. And I do prefer edges erring on the side of toothy over refined, so it sounds like perhaps like it might not be for me, and slightly too expensive for a gamble / experiment.
> 
> But aren't they pretty!



I'll revive this thread to comment on this as I just talked to Milan Gravier about this recently.

He told me that he prefers a Coticule to finish his edges instead of JNats (which he uses for polishing) because he gets the toothier edges off his Coticules than he does with japanese stones.

I'm not sure about that yet but I decided to give it a try and got myself a Coticule from 1stone, thanks @KingShapton for this nice tip


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## stringer (Jul 29, 2021)

childermass said:


> I'll revive this thread to comment on this as I just talked to Milan Gravier about this recently.
> 
> He told me that he prefers a Coticule to finish his edges instead of JNats (which he uses for polishing) because he gets the toothier edges off his Coticules than he does with japanese stones.
> 
> I'm not sure about that yet but I decided to give it a try and got myself a Coticule from 1stone, thanks @KingShapton for this nice tip



I really like coticule and belgian blue edges on knives. I keep a little combo stone in my backpack for quick touchups at work.


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## cotedupy (Jul 29, 2021)

childermass said:


> I'll revive this thread to comment on this as I just talked to Milan Gravier about this recently.
> 
> He told me that he prefers a Coticule to finish his edges instead of JNats (which he uses for polishing) because he gets the toothier edges off his Coticules than he does with japanese stones.
> 
> I'm not sure about that yet but I decided to give it a try and got myself a Coticule from 1stone, thanks @KingShapton for this nice tip



I've had a limited amount of experience with a couple of cotis now, and I'd tend to agree. If used with mud and not overworked; I've got some silly-sharp, but still bite-y edges with a couple.


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## captaincaed (Jul 29, 2021)

It's funny, I think of their edges as somewhat less toothy, but I don't have much jnat experience. Mostly synth. May have to give it a go. If you're going to start a little project


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## cotedupy (Jul 29, 2021)

Here's what I want to know...

If a group of people are discussing something niche on an internet forum and there aren't any idiots to make nonsense comments about 'comparing apples and oranges'... IS IT REALLY HAPPENING?!?


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## childermass (Jul 29, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I've had a limited amount of experience with a couple of cotis now, and I'd tend to agree. If used with mud and not overworked; I've got some silly-sharp, but still bite-y edges with a couple.


Milan told me he’s using them without slurry, I will of course try both


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## cotedupy (Jul 29, 2021)

childermass said:


> Milan told me he’s using them without slurry, I will of course try both



Actually now I think about it - one stone I haven't used with mud as it's quite dished, so just went straight in, and it also works excellently.

(Also note - I've only ever used two coticules, and not extensively over a period of time, so my opinions on them are not going to be remotely well-informed! Definitely keen to hear your verdict when you've tried yours out...)


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## stringer (Jul 29, 2021)

I have a bunch. I got them mostly for straight razors, but I'm using them more and more for knives. They vary quite a bit. I keep this one in knife drawer at home. It's part of combination strop/stone made by razor manufacturer JR Torrey. This one is probably about a hundred years old. I love it for touching up kitchen knives. It's got a loaded leather strop on the other side.

Nakiri for scale


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## Steampunk (Jul 29, 2021)

As per @stringer , Coticules do have a massive variety in their characteristics, but can make amazing finishers for kitchen knives if you find one you like. Some can even be awesome polishing stones for Kasumi work.

Most Coticule veins I've tried tend to create a smoother edge, that suits something like straight razors, woodworking tools, Yanagiba, or paring knives intended for peeling duty more than what most people like on their Gyutos. However, there are some veins (I've got a somewhat modern La Dressante au Regne which behaves like this.) that provide a wickedly toothy edge for their high grit. Just like J-Nats, you kind of need to go through a somewhat expensive process of trial-and-error to find the one(s) that suit your application. Most are excellent, fine natural stones, but only a few might be the sort of thing you're looking for.

The less expensive Belgian Blues tend to be a more reliable choice for the sort of polished-toothy edge one prefers on Gyuto. Again, there is substantial sample variation (They also aren't formally graded, so it takes a real expert to pick one for your application.), and they don't cut as fast as Coti's, but they are good stones for cullinary blades. 

The primary feature of Belgian naturals over any other natural stone I've used, is their huge cutting range. A good Coti with a slurry stone, can pick up and fully refine the scratch pattern from a 600-grit synthetic stone, and can take you up to 12-15K+. A BBW doesn't break a sweat picking up from a 1K on a thick slurry, and can take you up to 4-8K. With Belgians, you just don't need all the middle-grit stones to fully refine the scratch pattern.

The edge you get on slurry with Belgian stones is different than the edge you get on J-Nats with slurry that isn't fully worked-down... Rather than toothier, it tends to be smoother, and less sharp. Coti's/BBW's cut really fast on slurry, but also tend to slurry-dull more due to the particle size of the garnets. It's easy to kill burrs on Belgian slurry, for this reason, but your edges won't necessarily be as 'crisp' on slurry with Coti's/BBW's as they could be. For that crispness, you need to work them through a full slurry-dilution progression until the apex convexity has been worked out, and you're finishing on pure water. Or, jump up from a 3-5K stone, to a BBW, or an 8K stone to a Coticule. 

Hope this helps.


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## stringer (Jul 29, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> The primary feature of Belgian naturals over any other natural stone I've used, is their huge cutting range. A good Coti with a slurry stone, can pick up and fully refine the scratch pattern from a 600-grit synthetic stone, and can take you up to 12-15K+. A BBW doesn't break a sweat picking up from a 1K on a thick slurry, and can take you up to 4-8K. With Belgians, you just don't need all the middle-grit stones to fully refine the scratch pattern.



I have one coticule that can take any 1000 grit bevel set razor to the equivalent of a 12k synthetic in 50 laps or less. I don't even bother with slurry, just water.


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## cotedupy (Jul 29, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> As per @stringer , Coticules do have a massive variety in their characteristics, but can make amazing finishers for kitchen knives if you find one you like. Some can even be awesome polishing stones for Kasumi work.
> 
> Most Coticule veins I've tried tend to create a smoother edge, that suits something like straight razors, woodworking tools, Yanagiba, or paring knives intended for peeling duty more than what most people like on their Gyutos. However, there are some veins (I've got a somewhat modern La Dressante au Regne which behaves like this.) that provide a wickedly toothy edge for their high grit. Just like J-Nats, you kind of need to go through a somewhat expensive process of trial-and-error to find the one(s) that suit your application. Most are excellent, fine natural stones, but only a few might be the sort of thing you're looking for.
> 
> ...



This is a great explanation, thank you.

Will bear all that in mind as I've got a few more on the way. Not that I necessarily need them, but they came as part of a job lot of seven old stones which cost a bit under $75 US all-in. And frankly that was not a price I was going to pass on, though I'll probably end up swapping a couple away.


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## Steampunk (Jul 29, 2021)

stringer said:


> I have one coticule that can take any 1000 grit bevel set razor to the equivalent of a 12k synthetic in 50 laps or less. I don't even bother with slurry, just water.



I can believe it. Some of these things are speed-demons. 

I've seen some serious material removal on a contemporary La Veinette that auto-slurries, even on ZDP-189!


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## Steampunk (Jul 29, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> This is a great explanation, thank you.
> 
> Will bear all that in mind as I've got a few more on the way. Not that I necessarily need them, but they came as part of a job lot of seven old stones which cost a bit under $75 US all-in. And frankly that was not a price I was going to pass on, though I'll probably end up swapping a couple away.
> 
> ...



Some of those look like they're bonded to BBW's. Ironically, you may like the BBW sides more, and find them less worn-out than the Coti sides, for kitchen knives. Some of those BBW sides look like they might be nice based upon the coloring. 

The upper one of the three looks like it _might_ be bonded to worthless slate, but the lower two look like BBW's on the bottom. 

Should be fun stones once they're lapped... I'd also try to pick up little Coticule, and BBW slurry stones. You don't know the true lifting power of the stones until you get some mud built up.


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## cotedupy (Jul 30, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> Some of those look like they're bonded to BBW's. Ironically, you may like the BBW sides more, and find them less worn-out than the Coti sides, for kitchen knives. Some of those BBW sides look like they might be nice based upon the coloring.
> 
> The upper one of the three looks like it _might_ be bonded to worthless slate, but the lower two look like BBW's on the bottom.
> 
> Should be fun stones once they're lapped... I'd also try to pick up little Coticule, and BBW slurry stones. You don't know the true lifting power of the stones until you get some mud built up.



Ah, I thought the top one might be naturally bonded, but perhaps you're right and it's just bonded to something else, we'll see when they arrive... I did find a similarly inexpensive natural one too, though perhaps I might re-think offering it for trade now, as I like the idea of having a natural combi: WTT - Old Naturally-Bonded Coticule/BBW 200 x 47mm

@KingShapton said the same about slurry stones, and has very kindly sent me some of both already


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## milangravier (Jul 30, 2021)

I love coticules stones for sharpening. Actually all knives I am making are leaving the workshop with coticule edge.
I got "la veinette" and "la grise". La veinette is creamy, softer and sooo fast. La grise is harder, really fast for the hardness, great feedback. I have tried about 4 coticules. One latneuse which was coarser. One hybrid that was harder and finer. I tried them for polishing of course but the finish was scratchy on the coticule I have tested unfortunately.

For me they give toothy edges. Mine at least. The Hybrid for sure was a razor stone. But my Veinette and la Grise are great for knives. 6k edge with a lot of teeth.
1stone, ardennes-coticules and belgisher broken are some shop in Europe to find a coticule


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## cotedupy (Aug 11, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> Some of those look like they're bonded to BBW's. Ironically, you may like the BBW sides more, and find them less worn-out than the Coti sides, for kitchen knives. Some of those BBW sides look like they might be nice based upon the coloring.
> 
> The upper one of the three looks like it _might_ be bonded to worthless slate, but the lower two look like BBW's on the bottom.
> 
> Should be fun stones once they're lapped... I'd also try to pick up little Coticule, and BBW slurry stones. You don't know the true lifting power of the stones until you get some mud built up.



You were spot-on about the bottom two stones - they're both bonded to BBW. They top one I haven't yet received as the seller forgot to include it, so is sending separately. 

The longer of the two had a crack in one end and was coming away from the BBW, so I decided to just saw that bit off and make a slurry stone from it rather than ballsing around with glue. Really good stone, and surprisingly quick, as you said:






The other one seems a bit slower and finer, but has something quite interesting on the BBW layer... this isn't a natural combo - the BBW is glued on, but the surface of it looks like a thin hybrid layer (?), which give the stone a tricolour effect. Have you seen that kind of thing before...?

It may even be a third stone glued onto the BBW for all I know! It's certainly quite a straight division...


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## Steampunk (Aug 12, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> You were spot-on about the bottom two stones - they're both bonded to BBW. They top one I haven't yet received as the seller forgot to include it, so is sending separately.
> 
> The longer of the two had a crack in one end and was coming away from the BBW, so I decided to just saw that bit off and make a slurry stone from it rather than ballsing around with glue. Really good stone, and surprisingly quick, as you said:
> 
> ...



I've seen some mutant Coti's and BBW's before, but if that truly is a hybrid BBW on the bottom, it doesn't look like any I've seen so far! 

Have you tried to test it, yet, to see how it handles?


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## stringer (Aug 12, 2021)

I have a natural coticule combo with a lot of mixture between the two layers. Not exactly like what you got up there, but something kind of similar. It's my pride and joy that I mentioned above for going from bevel set to prefinish on a straight. At first I thought that corner was lacquered or something, but I've tried some different solvents and scratching it with a stiff wire brush and it seems to be stone. Notice also the blue lines in the coticule. There's several horizontal ones and then that near vertical one that cuts all the way through to the surface along with a bunch of specks.






















It's hard to see but there is more of that brown color showing on the surface of the bbw in those scratches. And there are tiny yellow specks suspended in the blue just like the tiny blue bits suspended in the yellow. Right now they are most pronounced on the left end, but it changes as I use the stone and lap it. I like the blue side for putting the final polish on my bbq hatchet. Very fast for bbw. Probably those extra yellow bits.


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## cotedupy (Aug 13, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> I've seen some mutant Coti's and BBW's before, but if that truly is a hybrid BBW on the bottom, it doesn't look like any I've seen so far!
> 
> Have you tried to test it, yet, to see how it handles?





Steampunk said:


> I've seen some mutant Coti's and BBW's before, but if that truly is a hybrid BBW on the bottom, it doesn't look like any I've seen so far!
> 
> Have you tried to test it, yet, to see how it handles?



Yeah it doesn't look like any pics I can find either. I tried it quickly a couple of times, and wasn't that impressed tbh. I might give it another proper go later before giving up on it though. It does have some yellow bits in it, and obviously Blue+Yellow = Green. But it didn't seem to act much like coticule or bbw from my first impressions.

(I know BBWs aren't usually particularly blue though, so the above is likely coincidence.)


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## Grayswandir (Aug 13, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Yeah it doesn't look like any pics I can find either. I tried it quickly a couple of times, and wasn't that impressed tbh. I might give it another proper go later before giving up on it though. It does have some yellow bits in it, and obviously Blue+Yellow = Green. But it didn't seem to act much like coticule or bbw from my first impressions.
> 
> (I know BBWs aren't usually particularly blue though, so the above is likely coincidence.)



Are you using the Coti on straight razors, or on knives?


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## cotedupy (Aug 13, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> Are you using the Coti on straight razors, or on knives?



Both now actually. Though I've only just started on SRs, so really couldn't give an accurate or useful impression of how good something is for one yet.


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## Grayswandir (Aug 13, 2021)

I want to add a coticule to my straight razor setup, it's kind of a staple for straight razors. What I'd really like to get my hands on is a yellow-green Thuringian, but the prices are way too high at the moment. I did find a guy on ebay, from Poland, who is selling them. He claims they're being mined again, but from what I know of, the only mines are in Germany. I asked for the name of the mine a day or two ago, but he still hasn't gotten back to me. 

I use a range of synthetics and a little Jnat that is surprisingly nice for what I paid (Ohira Koppa). I used it to finish a razor recently and it produced a very smooth shaving edge. It took a little time, but produced an edge comparable to my 12K Shapton. The cool thing about natural stones (from what I've read and from my limited experience) is that the particles continue to break down and get smaller and smaller as you work the slurry, so you can actually finish a razor on one stone (Jnat) after bevel set. I imagine this is true of all natural stones, but maybe I'm wrong? 

There's a guy on Youtube who put out some interesting videos (dating as far back as 2011 I think) only using 2 stones, usually a synthetic to set the bevel, then a Jnat to finish the razor. He created a honing technique called the "axe" method. If you're interested in watching some of his videos, drop me a line and I'll post a link. They're very interesting and informative.


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## esoo (Aug 13, 2021)

I really should start playing with this a bit more: 7x 1 3/4". The person that PIF'ed it to me on a razor forum told me it was marked super fine and was told it was a Pike. Mounted on a BBW, and I had to re-epoxy it as it had come off.


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## Grayswandir (Aug 13, 2021)

esoo said:


> I really should start playing with this a bit more: 7x 1 3/4". The person that PIF'ed it to me on a razor forum told me it was marked super fine and was told it was a Pike. Mounted on a BBW, and I had to re-epoxy it as it had come off.
> 
> View attachment 137882


A Pike Coticule, that's different. They were the first to get sole distributorship of the Franz Swaty hones back at the turn of the 19th/20th century. That's why there are so many variations on the Swaty name, but none were allowed to use the name exactly as written back in Europe. I guess Pike (later Norton) did a lot of business in Europe.


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## cotedupy (Aug 13, 2021)

And if it still had any Pike branding on it / a box - you'd have a proper unicorn, and worth really quite a lot of money I imagine.

There are old price lists/catalogues showing that Pike did sell coticules in the US market at the end of the 19th century. But I've never seen pictures of an extant one with a label. Ditto Pike Turkish stones.


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## musicman980 (Aug 13, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> There's a guy on Youtube who put out some interesting videos (dating as far back as 2011 I think) only using 2 stones, usually a synthetic to set the bevel, then a Jnat to finish the razor. He created a honing technique called the "axe" method. If you're interested in watching some of his videos, drop me a line and I'll post a link. They're very interesting and informative.


That's Alex Gilmore, amazing person to deal with when it comes to jnats.


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## esoo (Aug 13, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> And if it still had any Pike branding on it / a box - you'd have a proper unicorn, and worth really quite a lot of money I imagine.
> 
> There are old price lists/catalogues showing that Pike did sell coticules in the US market at the end of the 19th century. But I've never seen pictures of an extant one with a label. Ditto Pike Turkish stones.



There is no stamps on the stone, and I did not get it with a box.

This is what I got told about it when I got it.



> I have a vintage 7x 1 3/4 (I think) that's glued to BBW. The Coticule layer is on the thin side, just guessing it's maybe 3/16 thick. It was stamped super fine when I got it , and I've been told it was most likely a pike because they were known for thin slabs of Coticule layer.


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## Grayswandir (Aug 13, 2021)

musicman980 said:


> That's Alex Gilmore, amazing person to deal with when it comes to jnats.


Keeps his hair tied up, has a grayish goat-T right? He uses a microscope in real time to show his results? Same guy? I think his channel is called TheJapanStone. He hasn't posted any videos in the past year or two. He was picking up koppa at as bus stop in Japan, totally insane. They have toishi lying right on the ground in some places, similar to finding gold in streams for us honing lunatics!


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## riba (Aug 15, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> The cool thing about natural stones (from what I've read and from my limited experience) is that the particles continue to break down and get smaller and smaller as you work the slurry, so you can actually finish a razor on one stone (Jnat) after bevel set. I imagine this is true of all natural stones, but maybe I'm wrong?


That's indeed not the case.


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## Grayswandir (Aug 15, 2021)

riba said:


> That's indeed not the case.


 Do tell....


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## stringer (Aug 15, 2021)

riba said:


> That's indeed not the case.





Grayswandir said:


> Do tell....



There is a wide variety of sharpening stones. They don't all work with slurry in the same way. Some you would have a difficult time raising a slurry at all because they are much too hard and abrasion resistant.

You can theoretically shave with a razor off of your bevel setter. So anything that's finer than your bevel setter might be even better. But realistically the easiest stones to finish razors on will be very fine and relatively hard. This is kind of the opposite kind of stone from one where the particles/slurry starts off very coarse and then gets broken down as you work it. That sounds more like a soft kasumi polishing stone which, for me at least, are not stones I look to for finishing razors.


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## riba (Aug 15, 2021)

I am really not an expert at all, but I understood it are mainly the jnats where the slurry breaks down.
For example the garnets in a coticule do not do that. Typically one dilutes the slurry instead.


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## Grayswandir (Aug 15, 2021)

What about the Belgian blues? Aren't they slate, or a similar material? I didn't know that garnets won't break down, thank you.


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## stringer (Aug 15, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> What about the Belgian blues? Aren't they slate, or a similar material? I didn't know that garnets won't break down, thank you.



Belgian blues are the same garnets as coticules except with a higher concentration of binder/substrate and less garnets. Garnets in slurry are very fast but they don't really break down and the traditional approach is to thin the slurry as you go and finish under running water to prevent slurry formation at the end.


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## riba (Aug 15, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> What about the Belgian blues? Aren't they slate, or a similar material? I didn't know that garnets won't break down, thank you.








How does a Belgian Blue Whetstone compare to a Coticule? (a story about garnets) - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone


How does a Belgian Blue Whetstone compare to a Coticule? (a story about garnets)




www.coticule.be


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## Grayswandir (Aug 15, 2021)

stringer said:


> Belgian blues are the same garnets as coticules except with a higher concentration of binder/substrate and less garnets. Garnets in slurry are very fast but they don't really break down and the traditional approach is to thin the slurry as you go and finish under running water to prevent slurry formation at the end.



I've read a little bit here and there about this, but not enough. The binder can be anything from mud to chalk, and quarts and other "cutting" minerals are suspended in the chalk/mud, etc. I guess there are different types of Jnats that act in a similar way, i.e., the cutting mineral doesn't always break down and become smaller and smaller the more you work the slurry?

Do you prefer certain natural stones over others? I'm really interested in getting my hands on a Thuringian. I've heard a lot of good things about them. The problem is the price. Apparently people went crazy over Escher stones some years ago, and this drove up the Thuringian market in general. I did find a guy on ebay that claims he's getting "new" Thuringians from the same mine the original Eschers were cut from, but that should be verifiable. I asked him for the name of the mine and never got a response, so it's probably not true.

I've heard the ones to get are a yellow-green color.

Thank you for the link riba.


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## Grayswandir (Aug 15, 2021)

riba said:


> How does a Belgian Blue Whetstone compare to a Coticule? (a story about garnets) - home of the famous Belgian Coticule Whetstone
> 
> 
> How does a Belgian Blue Whetstone compare to a Coticule? (a story about garnets)
> ...



I've been reading material from this site for the past couple of days, what a coincidence! I was reading the threads on restorations. It doesn't seem like they're taking on any new members, what a bummer!


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## riba (Aug 15, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> I've been reading material from this site for the past couple of days, what a coincidence! I was reading the threads on restorations. It doesn't seem like they're taking on any new members, what a bummer!


I think that 'coticule community' closed down completely shortly after the main guy (Bart) stopped. Which is some years ago.
Quite a treasure


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## stringer (Aug 15, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> I've read a little bit here and there about this, but not enough. The binder can be anything from mud to chalk, and quarts and other "cutting" minerals are suspended in the chalk/mud, etc. I guess there are different types of Jnats that act in a similar way, i.e., the cutting mineral doesn't always break down and become smaller and smaller the more you work the slurry?
> 
> Do you prefer certain natural stones over others? I'm really interested in getting my hands on a Thuringian. I've heard a lot of good things about them. The problem is the price. Apparently people went crazy over Escher stones some years ago, and this drove up the Thuringian market in general. I did find a guy on ebay that claims he's getting "new" Thuringians from the same mine the original Eschers were cut from, but that should be verifiable. I asked him for the name of the mine and never got a response, so it's probably not true.
> 
> ...




I don't have a whole lot of mineral knowledge. But I can tell you that the major different families of natural whetstones I have owned and used (jnats, coticules, Arkansas/novaculite, etc) all behave very differently. I don't prefer any whetstone to another in general but I like to keep a large arsenal and try lots of different things so that I have what I need to get stuff done on a large range of steels for knives, chisels, razors, etc.

I too would love to get an Escher but am probably priced out unless I get lucky on eBay.


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## Grayswandir (Aug 15, 2021)

stringer said:


> I don't have a whole lot of mineral knowledge. But I can tell you that the major different families of natural whetstones I have owned and used (jnats, coticules, Arkansas/novaculite, etc) all behave very differently. I don't prefer any whetstone to another in general but I like to keep a large arsenal and try lots of different things so that I have what I need to get stuff done on a large range of steels for knives, chisels, razors, etc.
> 
> I too would love to get an Escher but am probably priced out unless I get lucky on eBay.



Yeah, I think I saw your collection once, from browsing the straight razor section of this sub. I recall you going out and spending $300 to get into straights, and you came home with some really nice finds. Have you ever had the chance to hone on an Escher, or just heard good things, like me? 

So far I only have one Jnat, and the rest of my stones are Japanese synthetics (King, Suehiro, Naniwa, Shapton, etc.). I want to buy a proper Jnat when I get some spare cash to spend. I started myself off with an Ohira Koppa, hardness is probably around 3.5, so it's technically not a finishing stone, but it actually produces a really smooth edge, I just have to work the slurry for a long time. 

I'm still experimenting. I want to check out some natural stones from America, stones that technically aren't thought of as whetstones, but might actually do a decent job on a blade. I refuse to believe that the only suitable stones we have in America are the different Arkansas stones (and in Europe, some turn their nose down at our stones, not sure why though?) I know the Coticule is world famous, but there's no reason to look down on our American stones.

Have you ever used any barber hones?


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## stringer (Aug 15, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> Yeah, I think I saw your collection once, from browsing the straight razor section of this sub. I recall you going out and spending $300 to get into straights, and you came home with some really nice finds. Have you ever had the chance to hone on an Escher, or just heard good things, like me?
> 
> So far I only have one Jnat, and the rest of my stones are Japanese synthetics (King, Suehiro, Naniwa, Shapton, etc.). I want to buy a proper Jnat when I get some spare cash to spend. I started myself off with an Ohira Koppa, hardness is probably around 3.5, so it's technically not a finishing stone, but it actually produces a really smooth edge, I just have to work the slurry for a long time.
> 
> ...



My razor finishers are American stones. Owhyhee jasper from Utah/Oregon and Arkansas stones. I have several jnats but none of them are great razor finishers. At least not for me. I generally prefer very hard fine finishers for my razors and I don't have any jnats that fit the bill. Someday. I have never tried an Escher/Thuringian either. Someday. There are tons of other natural stones that have been used throughout history as whetstones. If you look online there are geographic guides that talk about the natural whetstone deposits that can be found in places throughout the USA/world. I buy ebay lots of mystery stones when I can get them cheap and pray for the best. Otherwise the workhorses of my collection are mostly all Japanese synthetics too.


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## Steampunk (Aug 15, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> I've been reading material from this site for the past couple of days, what a coincidence! I was reading the threads on restorations. It doesn't seem like they're taking on any new members, what a bummer!



If you're interested in learning about Coti's and Belgian Blue's, this is one of the truly definitive works on the subject:

https://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info 20m/grinding_and_honing_part_4_belgian_whetstones.pdf

Yeah... It's a shame that Coticule.be closed down years ago. Charming place to learn about Coti's.


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## Grayswandir (Aug 15, 2021)

stringer said:


> My razor finishers are American stones. Owhyhee jasper from Utah/Oregon and Arkansas stones. I have several jnats but none of them are great razor finishers. At least not for me. I generally prefer very hard fine finishers for my razors and I don't have any jnats that fit the bill. Someday. I have never tried an Escher/Thuringian either. Someday. There are tons of other natural stones that have been used throughout history as whetstones. If you look online there are geographic guides that talk about the natural whetstone deposits that can be found in places throughout the USA/world. I buy ebay lots of mystery stones when I can get them cheap and pray for the best. Otherwise the workhorses of my collection are mostly all Japanese synthetics too.



Oh wow, didn't realize there were others outside of the Arkansas stones, sweet. I didn't know there were geographic guides either, that's excellent, thanks. The only other stone (American) I recall hearing about was called a "Washita" or something similar? A guy on Etsy (Tomo Nagura) sells some Washita slurry stones for honing. I'd like to taker a shot at one of those mystery lots one of these days. I think there's one right now, something like 6 or 7 different stones. Last time I checked it was around $25 bucks (auction). 

What type of Jnat do you own? 

Thanks for the heads up Steampunk, I'll check it out. Yeah, it seemed like a nice crowd of people.


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## Grayswandir (Aug 15, 2021)

Steampunk said:


> If you're interested in learning about Coti's and Belgian Blue's, this is one of the truly definitive works on the subject:
> 
> https://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info 20m/grinding_and_honing_part_4_belgian_whetstones.pdf
> 
> Yeah... It's a shame that Coticule.be closed down years ago. Charming place to learn about Coti's.



I'm browsing the PDF, the info is really amazing. You can go from bevel set to finish with a coticule and slurry stone. Amazing.


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## Walla (Aug 15, 2021)

The ultimate guide for looking after your cuticles at home


With expert-approved recommendations.




www.stylist.co.uk





Might help you out


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## stringer (Aug 15, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> Oh wow, didn't realize there were others outside of the Arkansas stones, sweet. I didn't know there were geographic guides either, that's excellent, thanks. The only other stone (American) I recall hearing about was called a "Washita" or something similar? A guy on Etsy (Tomo Nagura) sells some Washita slurry stones for honing. I'd like to taker a shot at one of those mystery lots one of these days. I think there's one right now, something like 6 or 7 different stones. Last time I checked it was around $25 bucks (auction).
> 
> What type of Jnat do you own?
> 
> Thanks for the heads up Steampunk, I'll check it out. Yeah, it seemed like a nice crowd of people.


Washita is in the novaculite (Arkansas) family. They are no longer mined. Great stones for knives and tools. I don't care for them for razors as much. But I think @Desert Rat likes them for razors.

I have an aizu, a hideriyama, and an okudo suita.


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## Grayswandir (Aug 15, 2021)

I didn't realize the Washita wasn't being mined anymore. I guess someone has a nice dragon's horde of the stuff somewhere.

Okudo sounds familiar, is that a vintage Jnat?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Aug 15, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> I didn't realize the Washita wasn't being mined anymore. I guess someone has a nice dragon's horde of the stuff somewhere.
> 
> Okudo sounds familiar, is that a vintage Jnat?



Sadly, as @stringer said, Washita's are all gone. Mined out.

All novaculite (Arkansas) stones are on a finite basis now to one extent or another. The mines are all spoken for and there's only so much to pull out. We're seeing quality ever so slightly starting to suffer from some vendors.


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## M1k3 (Aug 15, 2021)

stringer said:


> My razor finishers are American stones. Owhyhee jasper from Utah/Oregon and Arkansas stones. I have several jnats but none of them are great razor finishers. At least not for me. I generally prefer very hard fine finishers for my razors and I don't have any jnats that fit the bill. Someday. I have never tried an Escher/Thuringian either. Someday. There are tons of other natural stones that have been used throughout history as whetstones. If you look online there are geographic guides that talk about the natural whetstone deposits that can be found in places throughout the USA/world. I buy ebay lots of mystery stones when I can get them cheap and pray for the best. Otherwise the workhorses of my collection are mostly all Japanese synthetics too.


Do you have any links to those sites? I found one site for Hindostans. Other results so far seem to be useless.


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## stringer (Aug 15, 2021)

I have tried some barber hones. But I would much rather use my shapton pro 12k/ super stone 12k/ or fast coticule for the same purpose.

That being said my favorite that I have tried is a Cattaraugus Injun. That is one of the predecessor companies of Case and I like that hone quite a bit for travel where I wouldn't want to risk breaking or losing one of my nice vintage coticules. It wouldn't be enough to fix any real damage but it could make a razor passable.


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## stringer (Aug 15, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> Do you have any links to those sites? I found one site for Hindostans. Other results so far seem to be useless.



I am just an ebay junkie. I don't see jasper come up often. I have bought two out of the maybe 5 I have seen in the last 3 years. There's always Escher's/Thuringians if you're willing to shill out big bucks. I've tried to bid on some non-labelled ones but always get sniped.
Nice bench size surgical black/translucent/butterscotch arks come up often and can be had for $80-100. Small vintage coticules come up often and can be had for 50-60$. Bench size washitas are often available for $50 or so clean and labeled. And you can usually find them for $20 or less caked in kerosene if you know how to spot them. I actually got mine at a flea market in Vegas.


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## stringer (Aug 15, 2021)

Also, I really like a soft Arkansas for kitchen knives. They are available dirt cheap on eBay.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Aug 15, 2021)

stringer said:


> Also, I really like a soft Arkansas for kitchen knives. They are available dirt cheap on eBay.



Agreed. Soft Arkansas stones are highly underrated.


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## cotedupy (Aug 16, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> Oh wow, didn't realize there were others outside of the Arkansas stones, sweet. I didn't know there were geographic guides either, that's excellent, thanks. The only other stone (American) I recall hearing about was called a "Washita" or something similar? A guy on Etsy (Tomo Nagura) sells some Washita slurry stones for honing. I'd like to taker a shot at one of those mystery lots one of these days. I think there's one right now, something like 6 or 7 different stones. Last time I checked it was around $25 bucks (auction).
> 
> What type of Jnat do you own?
> 
> Thanks for the heads up Steampunk, I'll check it out. Yeah, it seemed like a nice crowd of people.



I would very strongly recommend getting a proper old Washita before the prices go completely out of control. They are an extraordinary stone, without equal anywhere, and still available for less than hard arks. They may not be as fine as the latter, but in many ways a markedly superior stone. 

Even the harder versions are comparatively quick cutting; Turkish stones will finish around the same grit, and beat them for speed (though not by much), but a Turkish doesn't have the massive low-end range of a Washita. I haven't used millions of them, but the ones I have seem to run from about 800 - 7k, _in one stone, _whereas a Turkish might be 4-7k. They're also going to be cheaper than an old Turkish. Lovely edges for kitchen knives, wouldn't use one on a razor, and best with oil, ime.

Watch out though - there are a few stones sold nowadays as Washitas which aren't the same thing. Though they seem relatively easy to tell apart, especially if it's got crazy pretty patterns on it - it's probably not a Washita.


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## cotedupy (Aug 16, 2021)

Slurry breakdown and geology are interesting subjects too. Which I knew nothing about 6 months ago, but have a semi-reasonable grasp of now...

Even in terms of basic rock type - jnats are not things that can be talked about as a single entity. Most jnats, especially the finer ones are hard shales/mudstones from marine deposits. And 'shale' itself is quite a broad term and encompasses stones made from all sorts of different mud or silt type deposits. They are classic sedimentary rocks and can run from incredibly soft to mega hard, depending on the effect of lithification. There are also some jnats which would probably be considered 'sandstones' - a similar affair, but more sandy (duh), with the Silica / quartz content from _inorganic _deposits. There are some metamorphic jnats too, and I believe some igneous stones. You can no more apply generalizations to them that you could a Hindustan and an Ark because they're both from the US.

All this means that any slurry 'breakdown' effect will depend on the stone in question. Though I saw something recently which concludes that the effect is at least overplayed, and in this instance non-existent, in terms of the abrasive particles: Does Jnat Slurry Break Down?

The stone used there is a Nakayama Asagi - a very hard and fine shale type I think. The results may not apply to others.

---

All of the above is just my understanding, do feel free to correct me if I've got anything wrong.


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## captaincaed (Aug 16, 2021)

stringer said:


> My razor finishers are American stones. Owhyhee jasper from Utah/Oregon and Arkansas stones.





stringer said:


> I have tried some barber hones. But I would much rather use my shapton pro 12k/ super stone 12k/ or fast coticule for the same purpose.



I found some vintage barber hones in good shape, agree they don't leave the nicest edge, but will shave. Agree that harder, flatter stones have made for nicer shaves. My 8k synth is OK, but Ark and Cot edges feel nicer. Little jnat experience sadly. 

Worth mentioning that the razor world opened up when I got a decent cotton/leather strop. I haven't honed one time since I got the strop, and the shaves are far nicer. I'm sure there are honing pros that put me to shame, but the strop helped out this amateur.


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## stringer (Aug 16, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> I found some vintage barber hones in good shape, agree they don't leave the nicest edge, but will shave. Agree that harder, flatter stones have made for nicer shaves. My 8k synth is OK, but Ark and Cot edges feel nicer. Little jnat experience sadly.
> 
> Worth mentioning that the razor world opened up when I got a decent cotton/leather strop. I haven't honed one time since I got the strop, and the shaves are far nicer. I'm sure there are honing pros that put me to shame, but the strop helped out this amateur.



I've tried lots of strops. But only flea market/ebay stuff. What I have settled on is a women's flax linen woven belt from Salvation Army and a vintage no-name shell horsehide strop.


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## riba (Aug 16, 2021)

Ages ago I got a Kanayama strop. Seriously nice. (But pricey)


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## Grayswandir (Aug 16, 2021)

stringer said:


> I've tried lots of strops. But only flea market/ebay stuff. What I have settled on is a women's flax linen woven belt from Salvation Army and a vintage no-name shell horsehide strop.


Check out Duke City Shaving, it's an ebay store. The guy sells a really good strop for very reasonable money. 

3" Duke City Buffalo Straight Razor Strop (Midnight Black) Hand Crafted

He's a friend of mine. He doesn't make much of a profit off of his strops. He sells them because he loves shaving, and wants people to have access to good products, but without breaking the bank.

Me personally, I bought a little 2" strop from Etsy for $35. It's a nice strop, has nice stainless hooks and loops, but it doesn't come with the cotton or nylon strop besides the leather. If I had known about Duke City Shaving at the time, I would have bought the Duke City Buffalo strop instead.


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## captaincaed (Aug 16, 2021)

stringer said:


> I've tried lots of strops. But only flea market/ebay stuff. What I have settled on is a women's flax linen woven belt from Salvation Army and a vintage no-name shell horsehide strop.


Sounds perfect!

I got the basic version from Heirloom. Seemed popular on BnB, feels great.l, $50 for the combo. 


https://heirloomrazorstrop.com/


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## captaincaed (Aug 16, 2021)

riba said:


> Ages ago I got a Kanayama strop. Seriously nice. (But pricey)


Do you notice much difference from a more basic strop?


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## riba (Aug 17, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Do you notice much difference from a more basic strop?


The leather is incredibly smooth, it is a real pleasure to use.
With respect to results, I actually do not know (when my daughter was born I switched to a DE razor, I didn't shave with a SR long enough to be able to say something about it).


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## Skylar303 (Jan 28, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> You were spot-on about the bottom two stones - they're both bonded to BBW. They top one I haven't yet received as the seller forgot to include it, so is sending separately.
> 
> The longer of the two had a crack in one end and was coming away from the BBW, so I decided to just saw that bit off and make a slurry stone from it rather than ballsing around with glue. Really good stone, and surprisingly quick, as you said:
> 
> ...


My guess would be it's from Petite-Blanche, or Nouvelle Veine. As the first few mm look hybrid, then rogue? And those would be the only 2 layers that would produce that type of layering. Unless it's not even hybrid hah. But I'm no expert either. But curious to find out. 

You mention it doesn't act like BBW or Coticule, is it glassy? Slight grainy feedback? Does almost nothing without slurry?

I know it's an older thread so wondering if you found out anything more about this one?


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## JPO (Jan 28, 2022)

The surface prep on the harder coticules really can effect the type of edge you can achieve. A freshly dmt lapped hard coticule might tear up the edge of a straight razor, but will put some bite on a knife. They do cut high wear resistant steel. I have honed M390 hard steel on one of my coticules with good results. I prefer to use Vetrified diamond plates, but coticules are cutting this steel quite well. 
For knifes i do not use slurry stones. I just refresh the surface with a dmt/atoma to increase the cutting efficiency. The softer stones do not respond the same way, so this will have a marginal effect on these. 
They are expensive for the size you get in my opinion. 
For softer kitchen knifes an Atoma 1200 to coticules is a really nice combination. You just need to stop before the edge mellows out to much. 
I prefer my La lunes and Jnats if i use a natural stone for kitchen knifes. 
The La lune stone cuts really fast with slurry and leaves a little bite.


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## Skylar303 (Jan 28, 2022)

JPO said:


> The surface prep on the harder coticules really can effect the type of edge you can achieve. A freshly dmt lapped hard coticule might tear up the edge of a straight razor, but will put some bite on a knife. They do cut high wear resistant steel. I have honed M390 hard steel on one of my coticules with good results. I prefer to use Vetrified diamond plates, but coticules are cutting this steel quite well.
> For knifes i do not use slurry stones. I just refresh the surface with a dmt/atoma to increase the cutting efficiency. The softer stones do not respond the same way, so this will have a marginal effect on these.
> They are expensive for the size you get in my opinion.
> For softer kitchen knifes an Atoma 1200 to coticules is a really nice combination. You just need to stop before the edge mellows out to much.
> ...


Nice good bit of info.  One thing, probably not a big issue for knifes. But with razors on cotis it's reccomend not to use a diamond plate to raise slurry. Since it's spessartine garnets is the main abrasive is much softer than garnets it can break them making them sharp instead of "round". You maybe okay with a worn plate, but in theory it would still make them jagged just maybe not as severely. Just my 2 cents from what I read.


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## cotedupy (Jan 28, 2022)

Skylar303 said:


> My guess would be it's from Petite-Blanche, or Nouvelle Veine. As the first few mm look hybrid, then rogue? And those would be the only 2 layers that would produce that type of layering. Unless it's not even hybrid hah. But I'm no expert either. But curious to find out.
> 
> You mention it doesn't act like BBW or Coticule, is it glassy? Slight grainy feedback? Does almost nothing without slurry?
> 
> I know it's an older thread so wondering if you found out anything more about this one?



Umm I didn't manage to find out anything about the green bit no. And I actually sold it, so can't go re-check, but I remember not particularly liking it in comparison to normal BBW. It seemed harder and didn't slurry as well I don't think - felt a bit odd.


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## Skylar303 (Jan 28, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Umm I didn't manage to find out anything about the green bit no. And I actually sold it, so can't go re-check, but I remember not particularly liking it in comparison to normal BBW. It seemed harder and didn't slurry as well I don't think - felt a bit odd.


Ha no worries, there are still plenty that have good qualities. It may have been a killer stone at one point until where it's at now and started acting like that, then just set aside.


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## JPO (Jan 28, 2022)

Skylar303 said:


> Nice good bit of info.  One thing, probably not a big issue for knifes. But with razors on cotis it's reccomend not to use a diamond plate to raise slurry. Since it's spessartine garnets is the main abrasive is much softer than garnets it can break them making them sharp instead of "round". You maybe okay with a worn plate, but in theory it would still make them jagged just maybe not as severely. Just my 2 cents from what I read.


Yes, diamond slurry is really not recommended for razors. If i use a coticule for knifes i do not use slurry at all. I condition the surface with a dmt plate and use it with water. 
I do not use coticule slurry on my hard coticules on razors either. The garnets do not brake down, so a hard stone used with slurry is not a optimal solution in my opinion. If the coticule is lapped i do smooth out the surface with a slurry stone before i use it. The hardest coticule (les lat) i have is close in hardness to a black arkensas stone. So these stones vary allot, but if you know what you look for they can be really good.


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## Skylar303 (Jan 28, 2022)

JPO said:


> Yes, diamond slurry is really not recommended for razors. If i use a coticule for knifes i do not use slurry at all. I condition the surface with a dmt plate and use it with water.
> I do not use coticule slurry on my hard coticules on razors either. The garnets do not brake down, so a hard stone used with slurry is not a optimal solution in my opinion. If the coticule is lapped i do smooth out the surface with a slurry stone before i use it. The hardest coticule (les lat) i have is close in hardness to a black arkensas stone. So these stones vary allot, but if you know what you look for they can be really good.


With your hard coti, have you tried working it just under running water? Like in a sink, water continuously running over the surface?


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## JPO (Jan 28, 2022)

Skylar303 said:


> With your hard coti, have you tried working it just under running water? Like in a sink, water continuously running over the surface?


Yes, but now we are talking about razor finishing. This is usually how i finish a razor if i use a coticule. To take the edge a little further i might finish with a few laps on some type of lubrication on the stone after the running water step.
If i use a synthetic progression up to 8k i just do some laps under running water. This works grate to.
If i do a full progression after a 1k stone on coticules i use convex stones and finish with a flat hard stone. I never use only one stone.


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