# Whats wrong with all of you? (Thread will close 7-1)



## Chef Niloc

Ok not all just some of you 
In my absence I missed this BS.
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?1014-Hello!/page6


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## Chef Niloc

Been crazy busy opening the new place so I did not notice Adam Water crawler popped in here. I have been asked to keep this in the OT room and I will. I think someone needs to address this B.S.
I'm Quite frankly A little shocked you (Adam) had the nerve to come over here but even more dumbfounded at all the warm welcomes. You F'ed Dave over for the "gang", banned him, and tried to sweep the whole thing under the mat. On top of that You banned me and others for speaking my/ our minds, deleted my/ others post's, let's see if Dave does the same to me for this one? Then you show up here on the board Dave created because you and others screw him over, mostly you B/C you were his friend. You "missed your old friends" you say, should have thought about that before you $hit on us. I still have the PM's from you and Mike the F-nut Steward, I shared them with some of you all here guess you all forgot? To refresh memories Mike, and to be fare I don't know if he acted on his own or not but would be surprised if all the Mod's over there were not aware; unleashed a self admitted (in a email to my un-posted email account) Smear campaign on me. He him self and others he got wrought all sorts of B.S. "food sucks", "got food poisoning" $hit about me and the restaurant I worked at on Zagats and other food blogs. Unknown to them i had already left there, but thats not the point. That's also the mane/ only reason I have not publicly posted were the true location of my new restaurant is is, had to learn the hard way that these forums are not safe and that there are some sick and twisted people on these boards. I hold you Adam responsible as you let the whole thing turn into the mess it did by "staying out of it" and " not taking sides".


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## oivind_dahle

I thought it was MadRookie that tried to blackmail Dave, and that was the beginning to the whole $hit?

Can anyone please enlighten me on what happened. What does Mark @ CKTG to do with it and precise sharpening?
I can keep track of who did what 

If Dave got banned by Adam, they seems to be ok now. Adam is here. I know Madrookie tried to join, but he was banned after his first post


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## rockbox

Colin,

Do we really have to relive this "90210" episode all over again? A lot of people did and said things that they were not proud of and most of us are over it. If it weren't for those events, this cool place wouldn't be here, and this is a much better place than KF ever was. If you still have a beef with Adam, then you should discuss it with him privately. I'm not trying to defend anyone, I don't know every fact to do so. I just think its time to heal our wounds.

As for Mike Stewart, I can't believe he tried to do that crap to you. I've never like him or his "gizmo" quality products. His success just demonstrates how many ignorant knife owners there are out there. I can't believe I got suckered into buying one from him.


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## watercrawl

Edited and deleted:

It's not worth the fight Colin. I'm sorry you're so upset.

I'm trying to mend old friendships.


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## watercrawl

Chef Niloc said:


> I still have the PM's from you and Mike the F-nut Steward, I shared them with some of you all here guess you all forgot? To refresh memories Mike, and to be fare I don't know if he acted on his own or not but would be surprised if all the Mod's over there were not aware; unleashed a self admitted (in a email to my un-posted email account) Smear campaign on me. He him self and others he got wrought all sorts of B.S. "food sucks", "got food poisoning" $hit about me and the restaurant I worked at on Zagats and other food blogs.


 
I do feel a need to reply to this though....I had no part in this, none what so ever and I'm deeply sorry that took place.


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## WildBoar

Damn, it's one thing to ban someone from a BBS, but quite another to attack their livelihood/ profession. Sometimes the Internet provides a bit too much 'power'. I cannot think of anything lower then trashing a resturant like that because you are having a disagreement with someone who works there. That can put a lot of people out on the street, and have a lot of families scrambling to pay bills and feed their kids. Hopefully anyone who participated in that fabricated trashing will experience some sort of payback in spades.

That helps to understand your anger, but Adam seems to have worked to rebuild bridges to some of the other people who wired bogged down in this whole thing. This is over a month later that you are raging on him and looking for support/backing. But I suspect you will not find it. If you have continuing issues with him, you really should take it offline going forward. Dave M, Jim and Jay have done a great job in setting up this friendly BBS, and I believe I speak for most in saying it would be nice to keep it that way.

I can understand why you are so pissed, but this just is not the place to keep the battle going. Especially if Adam was not one of the people who trashed the restaurant.


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## Mattias504

That is really F'd up that someone gave false reviews and reports of you. Some $hit talk on the internet and really ***** with someones personal life are totally different. Sorry that happend Colin.


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## bprescot

Seriously. That's just perverse. I can't imagine how messed up someone would have to be to think that such an action is warranted because of an online dispute. Really sorry that that happened to you Colin. That is simply not okay. Never had much dealings with Mike S, but this anecdote tells me all I need to know. I would have a hard time believing that Adam had any part in that, though. And if he says he didn't know, I believe him. 

I'd also tend to agree with Dave in saying that the best place to resolve any ongoing intra-member issues might be over PT, though.


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## steeley

Nothing wrong with me .
That stuff that happen on the other forum is just that .
Hell i like both you chef and Adam invite you over for a beer anytime .
Dave has a very nice place here away from that that nonsense.
Now lets get back to what this forum is all about 

finding BIG FOOT.:whiteflag::soapbox:


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## Craig

oivind_dahle said:


> I thought it was MadRookie that tried to blackmail Dave, and that was the beginning to the whole $hit?
> 
> Can anyone please enlighten me on what happened. What does Mark @ CKTG to do with it and precise sharpening?
> I can keep track of who did what
> 
> If Dave got banned by Adam, they seems to be ok now. Adam is here. I know Madrookie tried to join, but he was banned after his first post


 
The Madrookie bit was more of a hilarious sideshow. "If you don't stop blackmailing, I'm going to use my super-special internet company to hurt you!" Then the followup discussion where I and a few others tried to explain why threatening someone with your company so they stop doing something is blackmail. Good times.


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## mhlee

I wouldn't say that was a sideshow. A number of people got temporarily banned, including me, because we used, what I would characterize as "slightly colorful" language to express our displeasure that punishments were being handed down arbitrarily and inconsistently, to valuable members like Dave, Colin, Salty, etc., that MadRookie was only banned for one week, and returned to gloat about it. Others, including Colin, got banned permanently. 

I understand Colin's anger. Initially, I was upset when I saw Adam. But the more I reviewed the posts at KF after what happened, it seemed obvious to me that whatever part Adam may have had at first, Mike Stewart was the one really responsible for Dave being banned, and all of the other people getting banned. If Mike Stewart is or has intentionally written false, disparaging comments about Colin, that's libel. Colin is absolutely justified in his anger; Mike Stewart could be sued for this if such statements can be traced back to him and Colin has suffered damages. 

Actually, I was supposed to have been banned for only one week. I wasn't able to login for months until I brought this up with Adam here. Adam apologized for this and allowed me to log back in although I have not posted there since and only infrequently read the posts there. 

Adam was very humble and sincere in his apology. That's why I'm OK with Adam. However, I'm still not OK with KF.


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## Eamon Burke

I've said it there, I'll say it here:

This is beyond a "blame" issue. It became a kind of nuclear war, where for some reason, people with businesses couldn't handle having a professional and personal life side-by-side. This isn't Mad Men, after all, and folks took it personally.

The point is, Dave was pressured into leaving because people who support KF financially wanted him gone. KF agreed to this, at least through their actions, and then a hurricane of angry people erupted. KF, in my opinion, failed the most, because the have chosen that their website will primarily be an advertisment for socially approved vendors, not a community for intelligent discussion. Colin even did something incredible and called KF's bluff, offering more money than the other guys for control of the forum, and was turned down.

You can point to individuals, you can blame people for who are still friends and who aren't. But from where I'm standing, I see KF turning into a site that none of us want to hang around anymore, so we left, and several forums were born--this forum survived the natural selection and has become a better resource for kitchen specific knives than any other site online.


Has anyone noticed that if you are on KF and suggest someone buy a knife that isn't a KF supporter, your comment gets deleted? I feel like a sucker for paying for a membership to support what has become an oversized, cross-dressing banner ad.

The only person I miss from KF is Mark, wish he was here.


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## watercrawl

johndoughy said:


> Has anyone noticed that if you are on KF and suggest someone buy a knife that isn't a KF supporter, your comment gets deleted? I feel like a sucker for paying for a membership to support what has become an oversized, cross-dressing banner ad.



What? No it doesn't. Are you being serious? Please send me a PT here to discuss this....this is not something I am aware of....not something I do....and not something I know anything about, but would certainly like to if it's true.


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## Mattias504

+1

This forum is better than the other one ever was. Everyone that actually had something to contribute, for the most part, ended up here. Not to mention, this place has way more knife makers actually contributing to the general knowledge.


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## rockbox

johndoughy said:


> The only person I miss from KF is Mark, wish he was here.


 

Since the nuclear war was mostly between Mark and Dave, I doubt that will happen. Mark is the main reason Dave got banned. Not to say Dave didn't give Mark plenty of ammunition to help his cause.


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## Chef Niloc

Mattias504 said:


> +1
> 
> This forum is better than the other one ever was. Everyone that actually had something to contribute, for the most part, ended up here. Not to mention, this place has way more knife makers actually contributing to the general knowledge.



This is very true, think that's a big draw to any aspiring kitchen knife maker, all the gurus in one place..can't get that on KF


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## ecchef

watercrawl said:


> What? No it doesn't. Are you being serious? Please send me a PT here to discuss this....this is not something I am aware of....not something I do....and not something I know anything about, but would certainly like to if it's true.


 
Could be, Adam. Maybe now that you've crossed over to the dark side, the information doesn't reach as far as it used to. 

I'll bet you didn't know that I'm still on the shite list, even though my suspension was supposed to be over in March. Not that I give a crap...I'd rather be on the banned list anyway at this point. Really.

Anyway, I'm glad that you're here; we go back a ways.


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## goodchef1

WOW! I didn't know we have a bunch of KF rejects here :lol2: that's cool, I think we all have been outcasts at one point or another. 

have to be careful though, like so many other forums, this forum is not immune to cliques, bullying, and things that were mentioned before being formed if not moderated by strict guidelines and/or mission statement.

a lot of people who gaze but do not participate, take you guys serious for advice and opinions, and are easily driven away when these things start to happen. These forums are entertaining, helpful, and informative, and many look to them for guidance.


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## mhlee

goodchef1 said:


> WOW! I didn't know we have a bunch of KF rejects here :lol2: that's cool, I think we all have been outcasts at one point or another.
> 
> have to be careful though, like so many other forums, this forum is not immune to cliques, bullying, and things that were mentioned before being formed if not moderated by strict guidelines and/or mission statement.
> 
> a lot of people who gaze but do not participate, take you guys serious for advice and opinions, and are easily driven away when these things start to happen. These forums are entertaining, helpful, and informative, and many look to them for guidance.


 
These are good points. However, I think that a few things really differentiate things here. 

First, KF would NEVER allow for a thread like this to continue. It would have been locked immediately. By allowing this thread to continue (and others that preceded this thread), it's allowing for people to air out their opinions which, for me, has made me feel more like a part of this community than at KF.

Second, in my experience, the vendors here are much more respectful of each other. 

Third, Dave, Jon, Marko, Stefan, and the other vendors, including the knifemakers, all have their niche - they are not competing with each other. Dave and Jon both have sharpening products, but with only nominal overlap. The knives they sell are different. The knives sold by the knifemakers are all different. And specifically with respect to Dave and Jon, because I've spoken with both, neither are openly pushing their products in this forum at the expense of someone else's product or price cutting for the sake of poaching sales from other vendors. This was obvious at KF. 

Fourth, and lastly, I think the people here are, all in all, better members. They are more respectful and knowledgeable. The more experienced or long time knife owners here may have strong opinions, but, from what I've seen, they've been offered in a friendly manner. 

I've enjoyed being a member here much more than at KF. And I'd like to thank all the members here for a great forum.


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## Salty dog

I was never banned or suspended.


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## SpikeC

:scratchhead:What is wrong with you????????


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## Jim

mhlee said:


> These are good points. However, I think that a few things really differentiate things here.
> 
> First, KF would NEVER allow for a thread like this to continue. It would have been locked immediately. By allowing this thread to continue (and others that preceded this thread), it's allowing for people to air out their opinions which, for me, has made me feel more like a part of this community than at KF.
> 
> Second, in my experience, the vendors here are much more respectful of each other.
> 
> Third, Dave, Jon, Marko, Stefan, and the other vendors, including the knifemakers, all have their niche - they are not competing with each other. Dave and Jon both have sharpening products, but with only nominal overlap. The knives they sell are different. The knives sold by the knifemakers are all different. And specifically with respect to Dave and Jon, because I've spoken with both, neither are openly pushing their products in this forum at the expense of someone else's product or price cutting for the sake of poaching sales from other vendors. This was obvious at KF.
> 
> Fourth, and lastly, I think the people here are, all in all, better members. They are more respectful and knowledgeable. The more experienced or long time knife owners here may have strong opinions, but, from what I've seen, they've been offered in a friendly manner.
> 
> I've enjoyed being a member here much more than at KF. And I'd like to thank all the members here for a great forum.




Thanks for the nice run down, this is a good place to point out some operating goals that, as a team we have here at KKF. 

Any respectful and gentlemanly discussion is welcome- 
Any opinion or experience is welcome- 
Threads about vendor issues are welcome - see point #1

Whats not going to be permitted is-

Ax grinding-
Personal attacks-
Stampede posting, where a member is modded and get snarky everywhere on the board.
Posts may be modded at various times (especially titles) for gratuitous vulgarity-
Dragging issues from other boards over to KKF-
Posting Private messages without all parties permission-
Commercial or promotional posts outside the vendors forum- 

Basically its "Play nice!"

This has been a pretty easy transition here, many of the men are very seasoned posters and most have at least a few grey hairs.:wink:

The team expected this thread, or one like it to have been posted a long time ago, we discussed it agreed that we would let it run for as long as it needed to to let the men vent, we also plan on it being the last of its kind.

We have a wonderful opportunity here to create a vibrant and useful community, I am very happy to be a small part of it. 

Jim


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## watercrawl

mhlee said:


> First, KF would NEVER allow for a thread like this to continue. It would have been locked immediatley.



That's simply not true as a general rule. Sure, during the n Lear war that erupted during that stretch, I was certainly more trigger happy. However, the members proved time and time again that the thread couldn't continue peacefully. Ultimately someone would start **** and the thread got locked before I had a chance another one popped up with the same thing. It's not a full time job for me. In order to keep the peace as effectively as possible, I chose the path of lock first, figure it out later. 

A thread like this would not get locked today and wouldn't have been any other time as a general rule.


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## chazmtb

I think we should leave KF be, since this is a new forum. Let it be, guys. Let it go. We have a better place now.


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## Jim

As a operational rule, if possible we prefer to remove posts that are not in compliance rather than close an entire thread.

If a thread is constantly contentious and has become circular, then it may be closed. 

Comments about other forums and bringing up, for or against, specific actions by mods on other forums will be removed.

I would urge all parties to get off their chest anything like this now so we can get back to playing with knives.

Jim


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## stevenStefano

I am/was still a newcomer when everything happened at KF, but as others have said, I find this place to be better than KF ever was. I feel that at KF the vendor section is more important than the actual discussion part, and so many of the posters are closely allied to the vendors that you have to weigh their opinion against that. I really hope this place keeps being so interesting and informative


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## DWSmith

Forgive me for my 2 cents worth, but...

I was a poster on KF for four years. I left for a variety of reasons which will not be discussed here. I like KKF because of the family atmosphere and the way the members are treated. So, lets get on with this new sandbox and let the old go out with the trash. What past is past and what is gone is gone and I for one will not look back. We need to get past whatever was and look to what is!


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## SpikeC

"Those who forget the past are destined to repeat it"
Butt that doesn't mean living there!


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## SpikeC

I was a little disappointed when this thread was closed, and I'm happy to see that it is being allowed to run it's course.
Well done, Mods!


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## Larrin

I've never been banned anywhere. Everywhere I go I'm universally adored.


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## rockbox

Larrin said:


> I've never been banned anywhere. Everywhere I go I'm universally adored.



I know certain knife maker that doesn't adore you. At least he didn't 5 years ago. 

Holy cow, has it been that long? You were just a know-it-all teenager back then. Now, you are a know-it-all soon-to-be metal doctor.


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## 99Limited

Larrin said:


> I've never been banned anywhere. Everywhere I go I'm universally adored.



Are you sure that's not abhorred. :scratchhead: :lol2: :scratchhead:


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## Ratton

Jim said:


> I would urge all parties to get off their chest anything like this now so we can get back to playing with knives.Jim



I still vividly remember the negative, derogatory comments make about my friend Dave Martell a few months ago by someone who is now being welcomed here with open arms. It chaps my arse that all is forgotten so blindly!!
However this is Daves Forum, and he has obviously moved on and allowed the person to post here, so I will respect his leadership and will be cordial to all; but a wolf in sheeps clothing is still a ----.
:goodevil:


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## Salty dog

Did anyone fire someone today? Did someone lose their job today? How is everyone's health? How's the family? Did you get laid recently?

Granted I thought it was a big deal at the time but really.................


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## Jay

[video=youtube;1sONfxPCTU0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0[/video]

:happy2:
This is supposed to be a place where we can all have a fresh start and all be friends. :thumbsup2:


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

I said it over there, and will say it here. I am glad I missed the whole thing.


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## watercrawl

Ratton said:


> I still vividly remember the negative, derogatory comments make about my friend Dave Martell a few months ago by someone who is now being welcomed here with open arms. It chaps my arse that all is forgotten so blindly!!
> However this is Dave&#8217;s Forum, and he has obviously moved on and allowed the person to post here, so I will respect his leadership and will be cordial to all; but a wolf in sheep&#8217;s clothing is still a ----.
> :goodevil:



You see, it's comments like this that make it difficult for me. 

I'm going to assume it's directed at me. 

And let's just say there are two sides to that story. There just might be two wolves in sheeps clothing, you think? Maybe it takes a lot for both sides to forgive, and move on. You think? Maybe it's comments like these from people that makes it harder rather than easier for two old friends to work their way through a tough situation that went publicly nuclear. You think?

I appreciate and understand loyalty to a friend. But before you cast stones at someone in a situation like this, it might be prudent to know all the facts before you toss. That might be a better avenue than adding gas to a fire that just starting to calm. 

If I wronged anyone in this situation, I'd be happy to discuss such a thing with them individually. Please, though, don't be so presumptuous to think you know everything that went on well enough to call one a wolf in sheeps clothing. 

Just my two cents.


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## kalaeb

Not sure if this is the best place to put this, but I just checked out your site and you do some wicked handles. Nice work!


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## Chef Niloc

Salty dog said:


> Did anyone fire someone today? Did someone lose their job today? How is everyone's health? How's the family? Did you get laid recently?
> 
> Granted I thought it was a big deal at the time but really.................


 I fired 2 people today and three last weekend, made a grown man cry.
I'm not feeling to good but it could be the 9-4 shifts I'm working, them a Be-ach.
Have not talked to famley in years
Have not seen my girl in months, and we live together

I'm PO'ed that you did not get banned and I did, but not too PO'ed 
I will be very po-Ed if mike sweetheart shows up here next.
I PO'ed that Adam did not side with us back then and tell KF to F off,... And then comes over here like nothing happened.

I personally think Daves "forgive and forget" is more of a " keep the piece, I may be wrong but I think he was surprised when Adam showed up??
I know both sides of the story and I'm still siding with Dave.

I feel better that that every one that still has a problem with Adam got a chance to vent.
I'm sorry that Adam has a "what ever adatude" to the whole thing.

I call BS on KF not locking posts and being a "vender run" board bent around Mike stewards ego and small P...well you know what I was about to say 
And for the record Ken does need a helmet , that's just a fact...a harness too maybe:scratchhead:


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## Mattias504

hahah


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## ecchef

Colin, have you considered switching to decaf? :angry1:


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## dough

to moderators:
well im glad the thread remained open as i wouldnt have known some things while many things are still the same.
to most:
certainly it wont live forever but like calling this war is beyond harsh.. people die in wars and my friends have died in wars this is different is all that needs to be said. referring to things as a nuclear war is beyond silly... i realize that is a term used later in this discussion but it doesnt have a place for me.
mostly to the one who began this topic:
only other offering i have is that i wish the new restaurant much success. i think no matter the bs your cooking and time spent in your kitchen will prove your more then worthy of the success i expect you to find. whether it makes you crass or cleaver as a cook honesty tends to be the biggest asset.


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## Salty dog

Chef Niloc said:


> I fired 2 people today and three last weekend, made a grown man cry.
> I'm not feeling to good but it could be the 9-4 shifts I'm working, them a Be-ach.
> Have not talked to famley in years
> Have not seen my girl in months, and we live together
> 
> I'm PO'ed that you did not get banned and I did, but not too PO'ed
> I will be very po-Ed if mike sweetheart shows up here next.
> I PO'ed that Adam did not side with us back then and tell KF to F off,... And then comes over here like nothing happened.
> 
> I personally think Daves "forgive and forget" is more of a " keep the piece, I may be wrong but I think he was surprised when Adam showed up??
> I know both sides of the story and I'm still siding with Dave.
> 
> I feel better that that every one that still has a problem with Adam got a chance to vent.
> I'm sorry that Adam has a "what ever adatude" to the whole thing.
> 
> I call BS on KF not locking posts and being a "vender run" board bent around Mike stewards ego and small P...well you know what I was about to say
> And for the record Ken does need a helmet , that's just a fact...a harness too maybe:scratchhead:


 
I baled out before it got too ugly. Exchanged a couple PTs and called it a day. I could see where it was going and knew forum life was going to change.

I have issues with both forums actually. It's a fact of life that forums will be used as marketing tools and there isn't much that can be done about it. I've accepted that and mostly lurk in all the forums and vowed to cut my participation here. (I'm finding it difficult)

Bottom line is if you want to go where the most experienced and knowledgable people are this is the place.

Colin, I hope you guys aren't open seven days a week. A man has to recover. (yeah, i know, "I'll recover when I'm dead")

Dr. Salty says, take a day, talk to family, have a good meal with the wife and lay down some lumber. Take at least once a week, more if possible.


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## rockbox

Salty dog said:


> I baled out before it got too ugly. Exchanged a couple PTs and called it a day. I could see where it was going and knew forum life was going to change.
> 
> I have issues with both forums actually. It's a fact of life that forums will be used as marketing tools and there isn't much that can be done about it. I've accepted that and mostly lurk in all the forums and vowed to cut my participation here. (I'm finding it difficult)
> 
> Bottom line is if you want to go where the most experienced and knowledgable people are this is the place.
> 
> Colin, I hope you guys aren't open seven days a week. A man has to recover. (yeah, i know, "I'll recover when I'm dead")
> 
> Dr. Salty says, take a day, talk to family, have a good meal with the wife and lay down some lumber. Take at least once a week, more if possible.



I agree. Its just a fact of life. Money makes the world go around. Plus, people like the marketing. Think of all the magazines that get bought. Most are just ad books with a couple fluff pieces about advertised products. As I said before, it really doesn't matter what knife we buy. They are cool in their own way and perform great if properly sharpened. I'm here because its fun to talk about them and they are pretty to look at. I also love the sensation I get when one glides through a piece of food without any force. 

The main reason I'm here is because of the friends I have made. I've never been closer to a group of guys that I have never met face to face. I've been to some cool place in the last few years, but having dinner at your place with the crew and making a knife with Hoss were the highlights of the last year. Someday, I hope to have dinner at Colin's new place, if he will have me, and go to Jon's new store and hopefully meet all the food/knife nuts in those areas.


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## watercrawl

Chef Niloc said:


> And then comes over here like nothing happened.



That's not true...I came here humbly...tried to send you a PT (inbox full), and Dave replied to my "Hello" thread before I found the right words to say something to him in a PT. 



> I'm sorry that Adam has a "what ever adatude" to the whole thing.



Don't try to think you know what my attitude is to the whole thing. My "what ever attitude" was directed at your attitude....not the whole thing. Nor would a "what ever attitude" involve my continued checking of this thread to see what people are saying. 

Your views of me seem to be distorted by your love for Dave. I respect that, but the views aren't entirely correct Colin. I admit I made mistakes. But I didn't go calling you names, now did I?


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## watercrawl

kalaeb said:


> Not sure if this is the best place to put this, but I just checked out your site and you do some wicked handles. Nice work!


 
Sorry, missed this!

Thanks, I appreciate it.


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## BertMor

I know I'm was coming in here late, but I put my nose in over at ITK whe Maddog Rookie tried to blackmail Dave. I don't know all the details but I can piece together by reading between the lines. There was blame on both sides and Adam tried to do the right thing. Personally I think he failed. But the worse part was a few vendors who went out of their way to market by 'scientifically' downgrade a competitor. After all Dave has done for all of us, to be treated that disrespectfully is disgraceful. 

If Adam is forgiven by Dave, I will cut him slack. Mike Stewart and his crap knives can go to h*ll as far I am concerned. His actions were unforgiveable.

Colin, I understand why you feel the way you do, and in some ways you're right. But I think Adam sees where he made some errors, and has repented.

My .02c, YMMV


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## Mattias504

As far as I'm concerned (hopefully the majority here, too), KF should be water under the bridge. IMHO, all of the important people(Adam included) made their way over here and this forum is stronger than KF ever was. If you take a look over there now, it is mostly names we've never heard of and topics that are awfully boring. This place is a good breath of fresh air and is a whole lot more than just talking about what kind of fancy knives we all like. 

Colin, I know opening up a new joint is tough but dude, you need a day off!!


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## ajhuff

This whole thread is absolutely fascinating. I don't even know what it's about but I can't stop reading it!!! <reaches for more popcorn>

-AJ


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## BertMor

You should have seen it live and in color! Like the World Heavyweight Championship prize fight


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## rockbox

BertMor said:


> You should have seen it live and in color! Like the World Heavyweight Championship prize fight



I do not want to relive it. I felt like I was going to lose half of my friends. All I wanted was place that actually ran and wasn't full of banner ads, and I got stuck right in the middle of a nuclear war. It all worked out but that week was freaking stressful.


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## watercrawl

rockbox said:


> ....but that week was freaking stressful.



Indeed it was. Never thought I'd ever loose sleep over ITK when they asked me to be a mod. Boy did I get that wrong.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

I've never been a moderator, but I've been a first sergeant in a squadron of 110 people with different personalities and expectations. It's a thankless job and no one decision is going to make everyone happy. At least is was my job and I got paid for it. Adam, and all the other moderators get zip. I don't know what was said or done, but at least take that into consideration when judging Adam. Thankless job it is.


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## Salty dog

I've met Adam, he's dined in my restaurant. I know he is a good dude. Period.


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## mhlee

As to my reference that Salty was banned, my mistake. 

Adam: On to more important things - when are you going to be selling those parers on your website??? :evilgrin:


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## Tristan

Wow, talk about late to the party. Six pages.

I'm personally glad to welcome another 'familiar name' over here. Although, coming from me, I am mostly a small time poster without that much value to add to discussions anyway.

I saw some really nasty crap go down on the other side, with much mud slinging going on. Madrookie was a complete turd, and I'm glad his kind will not be tolerated here. For Adam, the only real public outburst I read from him before I gave up and walked away from KF for good was directed at Dave M. (without allowing insinuations and reading further between the lines etc). 

If Dave is ok with him being here, how on earth can I not be. Hope this will be the last thread on all the unpleasantness and we all walk away. My two cents is that the only thing that feels out of place is that Adam still seems to feel a burden of protectiveness for KF. I think we should all stop bringing any further rubbish from other forums over here. This community has been great since inception, and I enjoy reading this stuff so I hope the bad juju stays away.

At Colin: that post about the restaurant being flamed online falsely is ridiculously bad. I hope that the owners take some action against the idiots that did it if it can be traced to them for real. I'm sorry it became that ugly, and that you had to see it. And also experience so much of it first hand. And please do take a break - Salty's prescription sounds like just what the doctor ordered. Hope you find a week to self medicate soon.

My 2 cents.


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## goodchef1

I'm glad watercrawl is on here, from reading some of his posts on KF. He is very knowledgable, informative, and professional (just from my experience reading a few of his posts) and having knife wisdom like that is always a good thing to have on a forum.


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## tk59

I don't know the whole story but I will say I took a lot of turns thinking it was one person or another's fault and losing sleep over it, too. In the end, I chalk it up to a sad situation essentially run by a couple of unsophisticated supermoderators with god-complexes led by Mike Stewart. I can't believe anyone in their right mind would select such an dolt to moderate anything.


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## ThEoRy

Sleeping dogs, words, words, different things and stuff. :wink:


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## Chef Niloc

tk59 said:


> I don't know the whole story but I will say I took a lot of turns thinking it was one person or another's fault and losing sleep over it, too. In the end, I chalk it up to a sad situation essentially run by a couple of unsophisticated supermoderators with god-complexes led by Mike Stewart. I can't believe anyone in their right mind would select such an dolt to moderate anything.


 The name alone gives me a creepy feeling...could use the name as a metaphor for something that is dirty and worthless. As in " i didn't need that Mike Stewart of a knife anyway" or " I got hit up by a Mike Stewart on my way to work today for some spare change"


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## tk59

I understand how you feel. At this point, I'm thinking he belongs in one of those caveman commercials as one of the cavemen.


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## Marko Tsourkan

I moved on and let bigones be bigones. Everybody deserves a second change, except for Michael Vick. :mad3:

I think this is a better place for most folks anyway. At least it is more comfortable place for me. No gun-related banners, not tactical knvies for stabbing people, no clandestine political messages (remember Pelosi word?), no excessive marketing (noob jumping), no super mods telling you how insignificant you were in their view. 

Did I miss anything? 

It was a big ugly mess unpleasant to deal with, charged with emotions. Compare it with forum here now. What is there to complain? I would think most people who I found interesting and worth reading are here already, so I am not missing much.

Give up your grudge and move on. There are better things in life (Salty advise sound pretty good to me). 

>
>


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## Dublinia123

I for one am grateful for the existence of "knifeforums". The combined knowledge and posting history is truly one, if not the most comprehensive resources available to anybody wishing to learn more about knives, sharpening etc. I have been able to read through many thousands of pages of highly informative reviews, tutorials and debates regarding topics of particular interest to me.

In that respect I will always be grateful to all those who made the time and effort to publish their thoughts views and opinions.

I did not get involved in the recent arguements which led to the mass exodus and the setting up of forums such as this one. I was a new and very infrequent poster, I didn't know the background, personalities or issues involved.

I did however become involved in one thread when moderators there behaved, in my view, in an unbelievably arrogant, argumentative, crass and insulting manner. Moderators, should in my view, when acting as moderators be above such behaviour. 

The performances of brian w edginton and Mike Stewart in the "Osama Thread" were, in my humble opinion, reprehensible and utterly unmoderator like. 

For his part watercrawl performed as I would expect of a moderator - calm, cool, non-judgemental and impartial, yet he acted quickly and decisively. Whether you agree with a thread being closed / locked or not is entirely another matter.

Based on the replies I received from Brian & Mike in that thread I will not post on that forum again.

I am very happy to lurk here, glean as much as I can and perhaps add something when I feel I have enough experience to add something of any merit.

To those reaponsible for setting up this forum and to those who contribute on a daily basis I thank you most sincerely. I feel much more at ease here and believe the expertise that exists herein would be hard to surpass anywhere.

Kudos to one and all. Please keep posting - else I run the risk of remaining in the mire of knife igorance forever.

Thanks one an all.

Dublinia123


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## olpappy

This subject raises its head again, on another forum. More popcorn entertainment and another closed thread:

http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?10631-Stones


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## WildBoar

haha -- way to be an instigator, olpappy :sofa:


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## EdipisReks

i'm an expert in the fields of automated cell scanning, FPLC and network infrastructure, at levels likely far beyond the "expert" level claimed there for certain someones, and i'd never stoop to the arrogant ******** that is being defended. if this comment gets me banned over there, so be it.


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## rockbox

Oh gawd.


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## EdipisReks

rockbox said:


> Oh gawd.


 
is that aimed at me or in general?


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## rockbox

Definitely not you! I just wish people would leave well enough alone.


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## EdipisReks

rockbox said:


> Definitely not you! I just wish people would leave well enough alone.


 

ah. yes, i agree. some of the stuff still pisses me off, though.


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## rockbox

I don't think anyone is completely innocent(myself included) in this situation and I feel bringing this situation up over and over again just splits up the community. This is becoming a team Edward/Jacob scenario.:sofa:


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## JohnnyChance

rockbox said:


> This is becoming a team Edward/Jacob scenario.:sofa:



Dork.


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## Dave Martell

I wanted to stay out of this thread but since I got myself drug into it regarding my FF post I'll go ahead and make a couple of comments.

First let me start with myself> I should not comment about those guys like I do, it only makes me look petty. I'll be trying my best to let them be.

Second with regards to Adam> I've decided to let the differences between us fade away and welcome him here as best as I can.


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## rockbox

JohnnyChance said:


> Dork.


 

You learn a lot of stuff like this when you have a daughter that is 6 going on 17. LOL


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## Potato42

Dave Martell said:


> Second with regards to Adam> I've decided to let the differences between us fade away and welcome him here as best as I can.


 
Then why isn't he allowed to be a vendor here?


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## Dave Martell

Dave Martell said:


> Second with regards to Adam> I've decided to let the differences between us fade away and welcome him here as best as I can.


 


Potato42 said:


> Then why isn't he allowed to be a vendor here?




Would you also like to know the reasons for all of the other people being denied a vendor's forum as well or are you only interested in Adam's case?

Sean, if I thought that I owed you this information then I would have included you in the conversations to begin with. Since that's not the case then you won't be given this information.


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## Potato42

Dave Martell said:


> Would you also like to know the reasons for all of the other people being denied a vendor's forum as well or are you only interested in Adam's case?


 
I haven't heard of anyone else being denied a vendor's forum or being unable to post about their wares. Of course I don't know all the goings on either. Considering your second statement, it doesn't seem like it matters because you do not "owe me this information". It is your forum no doubt, and you can do what you wish with it.

It just seems like this forum is becoming like a tree fort with a sign posted out front. Instead of "no girls allowed" it's "only people Dave is cool with". I knew a little something about this to begin with based on responses to a thread I made, but I'm finding myself increasingly uncomfortable.

I joined because I saw the group of guys that incited my passion for kitchen knives way back when I started. It seemed like everyone was here and the atmosphere was as I remember back in the good old days. Now, I find it difficult to participate in the same way I once did. Even as I responded to this thread I thought "will this get deleted?"

I'd like to reiterate that I love the group here, and Dave I respect you as a craftsman and expert in your line of work. I have no interest whatsoever in rocking the boat. My question was a legitimate inquiry for information, and if you prefer not to provide an answer I can deal with that.


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## heldentenor

Without making a comparative reference to how this forum stacks up to KF, let me say this: Dave's been able to foster an open, democratic spirit of discussion while ALSO staying true to his personal perspective AND running a business directly concerned with the subject matter we discuss on this board. We all knew that he brought all of those factors to the game when we joined up. I know that I could not do a better job of balancing those (occasionally) competing priorities, and would love to hear from those who believe that they could. 

Alright, back to brunoising shallots.


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## Salty dog

I've raised this red flag before. Also, as I've stated before, I worry.


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## olpappy

I did not think Dave's comment on FF was that far out of line, a little dig at the so called 'experts' is harmless, and I think well deserved, since I would not consider either of them experts. The response, particularly by one of the new moderators there, was overly harsh and reminiscent of the events at KF all over again. That thread just left a bad taste in my mouth.

Heavy handed moderators can screw up a forum. As much as possible people should be free to express their opinions, and so far I'm glad that this forum has been able to achieve that, and I am disappointed that moderators on other forums are sometimes too quick to step in where it is not necessary.


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## Dave Martell

Hi Sean,
I probably answered a bit harsh before, I'm tired today, tired of the stuff that's been going on in the background and I'm wearing thin as a result.

To help you all understand, we are being faced with a large number of parties entering KKF with the intent of selling products and/or services. Some of these folks come to me first but some post (willingly or not) posts that can be considered passive marketing. While we want people to come here to post, we have to protect the interest of the community and paying vendors, which means we have to address each and every one of these situations individualy. This is becoming a full time job lately.

In some cases people have made a mistake and we clear this up. In other cases we offer them a chance to become a vendor. Not all are given a chance to become a vendor and not everyone wants to be one either. Each situation is different and each is dealt with differently. 

In the most basic explanation I can give, what we want from vendors is that they fit the community just as they need the community to fit them. I'll add my personal feelings and that's I don't want a vendor here that is not as interested in growing with the community as much as they are in just making money. I could care less about the money side of it (the vendor fees), this means little to me, the community means everything though. 

I watched the growth of KF ITK over the years, I even helped build the place up (participation since 1999) and then watched it being taken apart piece by piece in the recent years. Now that I know what takes apart a community I refuse to allow the same things to take place here. I will repeat what I said in my welcoming thread in the Kitchen Knife forum....



Dave Martell said:


> The Kitchen Knife Forums have been created for 2 reasons....
> 
> 1. To give the kitchen knifenuts back their home.
> 
> 2. To help the small craftsman/businessman survive/thrive in this market.
> 
> 
> It's my hope that we can put the drama from the past behind us and move forward to new and better things. Still though, I don't intend to forget the past because as the saying goes, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." I vow to learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of others and to do my best not to repeat these errors here.
> 
> Also, even though we have vendors within this forum we are not going to be a commercial magnet, we will only allow vendors and craftsman who meet strict criteria. This forum will not become the vendor type playground that we have seen at other sites. Vendors will be restricted on posting their services and sales to their respective vendor sub-forums. Any violations will not be tolerated. If anyone sees vendor misbehavior (including from myself) please report it to a moderator. Problems will not go unanswered here.
> 
> So with that out of the way......let's get back to talking about knives.
> 
> Welcome!
> Dave


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## Potato42

olpappy said:


> Heavy handed moderators can screw up a forum.


 
I'm right there with you. I left a prominent forum recently due to that very thing. Far from inviting if you ask me.


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## Dave Martell

olpappy said:


> I did not think Dave's comment on FF was that far out of line, a little dig at the so called 'experts' is harmless, and I think well deserved, since I would not consider either of them experts. The response, particularly by one of the new moderators there, was overly harsh and reminiscent of the events at KF all over again. That thread just left a bad taste in my mouth.
> 
> Heavy handed moderators can screw up a forum. As much as possible people should be free to express their opinions, and so far I'm glad that this forum has been able to achieve that, and I am disappointed that moderators on other forums are sometimes too quick to step in where it is not necessary.


 

I'm an idiot when it comes to dealing with these guys, I ask for no excuses or forgiveness for my actions.

Why I'm copying your post and commenting though is that you make a very valid point regarding moderators. They are the key to how things run.


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## Josh

I'm actually quite surprised with what I just read - I would have expected business men to take business more seriously. I'm with Fred. I'd say my opinion of everyone involved in the banter has dropped quite a bit. If the vision for this forum, and the marketing dream of making knife nuts more popular and more profitable, folks you have to grow up or you're going to be the cause of you're own failure.


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## Josh

"I probably answered a bit harsh before, I'm tired today, tired of the stuff that's been going on in the background and I'm wearing thin as a result."

Dave that wasn't an apology - it was an explanation. 

I'm not trying to get in the middle of all this, I just want you to know what it looks like from one of the newbies perspective. Are you trying to scare me away?


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## Dave Martell

Josh said:


> "I probably answered a bit harsh before, I'm tired today, tired of the stuff that's been going on in the background and I'm wearing thin as a result."
> 
> Dave that wasn't an apology - it was an explanation.
> 
> I'm not trying to get in the middle of all this, I just want you to know what it looks like from one of the newbies perspective. Are you trying to scare me away?


 

I offered an explanation..... is there something wrong with this? I'm sorry if this is scaring you, it's not my intention.


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## SpikeC

I don't know why anyone needs an explanation from Dave. There is a lot of history that most do not know anything about and there is not enough space to bring everyone up to speed, nor is it needed. Just enjoy the forum!!!!!


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## chazmtb

I font know why people are getting in a tizzy about another forum. This is a different forum. A different place where old friends come to meet. If you don't like the format, you don't have to join the conversation. There are two other forums that you can join those.

Can we move on?


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## mc2442

While I would like to see the threads go away, since it causes a lot of tension between folks that are not even involved, other than the entertainment value of course....whoever keeps saying that they are reaching for the popcorn cracks me up.

And not to defend Dave in the FF posting, definitely poking the hornets nest for the fun of it..........I missed most of the back story at the forum that will not be named, but Ken's response in that link was just over the top. While telling to let things go and be the bigger man, he came across as not only and arrogant jackass, but an ignorant one as well. And when others not only supported it, but one person (moderator I think) said that he could not have put it any better? Basically trying to call a truce, while you are in the act of sinking the dagger into someone.


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## Marko Tsourkan

olpappy said:


> This subject raises its head again, on another forum. More popcorn entertainment and another closed thread:
> 
> http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?10631-Stones


 
I think I have less and less patience for stupidity, not that I ever had much of it to begin with. FF can have the best and the worst at the same time. Glad I am not contributing there anymore.

M


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## DevinT

I will be glad when this thread closes on 7-1.

This forum and others like it create an interest in high end knives. That creates a need for some one to step up and provide the knives discussed here for sale. It seems to be the management of those sales and venders that causes all of the tension.

We need to be less emotional about business. 

I do not know what the solution is however.

I know that this a very small group of people buying from a small group of venders and makers. There are too many grocery stores in one small town if you will.

We need to concentrate on expanding the market, educating more people, and getting more people cooking , entertaining friends and such to promote high end kitchen knives.

Most people like nice things. We need to educate them as to what that is and direct them to a place where they can buy them.

Much love and respect to all

Hoss


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## WildBoar

Well said, Devin. :cool2:


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## mc2442

Well said.....we need to expand the addiction.....I mean hobby

I am new, though most likely hooked. I am trying to cook more to justify not only the knives I have committed to, but probably buy more over time. Most of the friends I have let into my dirty little secret look like they want to take the sharp objects away from me, though they are happy to let me practice my sharpening on their knifes.


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## Eamon Burke

DevinT said:


> I know that this a very small group of people buying from a small group of venders and makers. There are too many grocery stores in one small town if you will.
> 
> We need to concentrate on expanding the market, educating more people, and getting more people cooking , entertaining friends and such to promote high end kitchen knives.


 
Spoken like someone who has a plan for his business. This is my main drive, that the forums remain as open to differing opinions as possible, because they serve as a social resource for information for those seeking it. Just like the nature of radio demands that it remain predominantly "family friendly", the nature of internet forums demands that they remain accessible and helpful. Almost all new traffic on established forums is caused by people Googling questions and being brought over in search of answers. That's how I found all of you folks!


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## Chef Niloc

I have never been on FF before today so as a complete outsider I'm going to call it...Jmbullman??? The mike steward of FF? It seems to me that the bull man is no fan of Dave, but has his head stuffed...ok you get the point.

So this thread is gone 7-1?? 





Potato42 said:


> It just seems like this forum is becoming like a tree fort with a sign posted out front. Instead of "no girls allowed" it's "only people Dave is cool with". I knew a little something about this to begin with based on responses to a thread I made, but I'm finding myself increasingly uncomfortable.



And i I like it that way! Thank god I'm cool with Dave:thumbsup: 
At least you know who is pulling the strings here.


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## steeley

[/IMG]


I like tree houses .


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## steeley

Glad this B.S IS GONE ON 7-1.


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## moggi1964

Adam,

I was saddened when I heard about the bust-up at KF and that it had affected the friendship you shared with Dave (and others).

I am glad that bridges are being mended.

Welcome to the forum.


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## Dave Martell

I realize that some wish this thread to be closed but we chose to allow it to run it's course for a period of time for the purpose of venting of past issues that have been lingering. Once this thread is closed we are expecting that the subject of past events of KF/FF will be a dead issue here at KKF. This is you're opportunity to get it out of your system so that we can move on. It's my hope that we can mend broken relationships wherever possible and put the past behind us.


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## Lefty

Hakuna Matata!


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## Chef Niloc

..


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## jwpark

Chef Niloc said:


> Man I love this pic



Leave the doctor Colin


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