# J-Nat Club



## maxim

With Jnats i have and all of you have 
Please post pics of your J-nat ! All stones is welcome from all vendors. Also some other Natural stones too !


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## DwarvenChef

Nothing special, just my primary workers...

Nakayama Asagi top
Oohira tomae (i believe)


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## maxim

Some of my Nakayama Maruka Kiitas  
I just love these stones !!! Nakayama Kiitas is usually much harder and finer then say from Ohira or other mines. 
Very very expensive stones ! But beauty and performance is just hard to beat.
Price on them have skyrocket in the last couple of years. And the really hard and fine ones is more then 500 euro just for koppa or razor size, if you can find one  
The Kiita colors vary from deep orange to lemon yellow


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## Birnando

We really must have a talk about those Marukas Maksim....
I'll put up a pic or two of some of mine soon


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## maxim

I bring them with me so you can test on razors


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## DK chef

from last sharpening clas 





Hakka





more pictures will come


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## DwarvenChef

DROOL


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## maxim

Another Nakayama Kiita with a lot of su (suita) 
Quite fine and hard stone very very good feedback and super fast because of su.


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## Birnando

Here's the stones I have bought from some fella in Denmark...

I'll add a couple more from other places if that's ok with OP.

Anyways, here's the breakdown.

From left:
Red Aoto, Hakka Renge, Nakayama Asagi, Shoubudani Asagi, and the little one is a Oozuku Asagi.


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## maxim

Please do  



Birnando said:


> I'll add a couple more from other places if that's ok with OP.


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## DK chef

Looking forward to receive that Nakayama


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## DK chef

we had a little wine tasting yesterday and i had to show of some of my stones to my friends

i did the sharpening before we drank the wine  

Hideriyama on a base


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## Darkhoek

That looks nice! Wish I could have been there.

DarKHOeK


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## pitonboy

The Pingus is consistently a great wine


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## DK chef




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## maxim

Cool :doublethumbsup:

Here is my Rainbow Nakayama probably one of the coolest stones i ever seen !


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## Crothcipt

Chef those are some really cool stones.


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## DK chef

thank you Crothcipt  i had a great help from Maxim choosing and testing right stones for me, i think i got the lineup that suits me for now.


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## maxim

Range Okudo Suita very hard 










Kan Aoto with very cool patterns, soft Aoto but looks cool


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## cwrightthruya

That Okudo looks really nice. I absolutely Love Suita!!! I have a few myself I need to post.


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## cwrightthruya

Here is my Aoto Collection

From Left to Right: New Mined Aoto, 2 san-Aoto, Vintage Aoto, 2 Red Aoto


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## markenki

After a couple of years trying to resist, I am going down the slippery slope. Red Aoto from JNS and Takashima Awasedo from JKI. "Thanks", Maxim, and Jon and Sara.


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## mainaman

My latest 2 acquisitions 
Ozuko Mizuasagi for razor finishing -one of the hardest stones I have seen so far.

Second is Ohira Suita, very hard but does not scratch soft cladding and makes very nice mirror with light haze on hard steel.


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## maxim

I will add some pictures from Kyoto stone wholesalers 

Huge Uchigomori from Ohira !!! I will not even guess how much this rock cost :scared4:


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## maxim

i am testing some stones at Tanaka Toishi 










That is from visit of Imanishi Toishi 

Soma Nakayama Koppas that need to be tested :cop:













Humble testing aria 







Wall of Nakayama Koppa stones 




That Karasu in the middle i really wanted to dig out :spiteful:










And the other side. They need a security person for that wall but they did not want me


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## Eamon Burke

1. That Ohira Uchigomori make me pee myself.
2. I decided yesterday that I will, at some point in the future, have a JNat built into a countertop in my kitchen. This wall reminds me of that.


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## schanop

Present just arrived and I should start posting in this thread to really join the club :crossfingers:





- Elusive Aizu -

ps. photo and stone from Chris.


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## maxim

:doublethumbsup: congrats !!


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## Cutty Sharp

maxim said:


> i am testing some stones at Tanaka Toishi View attachment 9044



Maxim, when were you there? I sharpened in the same place early July!


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## maxim

Last year


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## Cutty Sharp

Did you buy from Tanaka? I picked up my Hideriyama there.


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## maxim

No, I dont deal with stone shops


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## pitonboy

Current grouping of stones (Shigs in boxes to the left)View attachment 10382
View attachment 10383


This is where a lot of the money from knife re-sales have gone


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## maxim

You need to go advanced to attache pics


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## Cutty Sharp

Please try again with picts.


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## pitonboy

Cutty Sharp said:


> Please try again with picts.



I put the pics on a different post labeled "Stuff" in the personal galleries section


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## Joshua1970

I've drooled over so many of the stones at JNS during the last few months.....it's just not funny. 

specifically screaming my name of late are the Shoubudani Asagi and the Ozuku Kan as additional finishing stones for my razors. so beautiful!

my current arsenal of stones:
Okudo Shiro Suita Koppa
Nakayama Maruka Kiita 
Nakayama Kiita Kan
Takeshima Karasu
Ozuku Asagi

with a Tomo Nagura for each, as well as Asano Nagura progression stones:Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro & Koma

Now that my interest in kitchen knives has been established I plan on holding off a bit longer still, and possibly get a softer stone to work with both knives and razors.

... and the rabbit hole grows ever deeper!


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## maxim

Hey welcome to KKF  Where is the pictures ?? :eyebrow:


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## mainaman

Joshua1970 said:


> Now that my interest in kitchen knives has been established I plan on holding off a bit longer still, and possibly get a softer stone to work with both knives and razors.
> 
> ... and the rabbit hole grows ever deeper!


you will be able to find some preoplishers for razors that are finishers for knives. Best way is to split the collection.


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## Joshua1970

maxim said:


> Hey welcome to KKF  Where is the pictures ?? :eyebrow:



thanks Maxim!! I've got to upgrade to advanced to post pictures I believe, and I also need to get some pictures uploaded! I promise to get on that in the next couple days!! 

BTW, your JNat Wiki was EXTREMELY helpful for a beginner!! Kudos!


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## mainaman

Joshua1970 said:


> thanks Maxim!! I've got to upgrade to advanced to post pictures I believe, and I also need to get some pictures uploaded! I promise to get on that in the next couple days!!
> 
> BTW, your JNat Wiki was EXTREMELY helpful for a beginner!! Kudos!


you can host on a website such as tinypic or photobucket and paste the image urls in your post.


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## Joshua1970

mainaman said:


> you will be able to find some preoplishers for razors that are finishers for knives. Best way is to split the collection.



my thoughts exactly! once I get my bearings a bit more with knives I'll be doing just that - tho I may still have to pick up that Ozuku Kan -that ring grain is just gorgeous! and those Ohira Range Suitas... oh my!

of course I can always pick up a coarser synthetic and switch to polishing on the naturals (both razors and knives - although the nagura progressions are just so fascinating). I keep telling myself "patience grasshopper" - but I've got a hardcore case of OCD to overcome here lol

re: using a photo hosting site - I just may do that! I'll devote some time over the weekend to figuring it out  thanks!


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## mainaman

Joshua1970 said:


> my thoughts exactly! once I get my bearings a bit more with knives I'll be doing just that - tho I may still have to pick up that Ozuku Kan -that ring grain is just gorgeous! and those Ohira Range Suitas... oh my!
> 
> of course I can always pick up a coarser synthetic and switch to polishing on the naturals (both razors and knives - although the nagura progressions are just so fascinating). I keep telling myself "patience grasshopper" - but I've got a hardcore case of OCD to overcome here lol
> 
> re: using a photo hosting site - I just may do that! I'll devote some time over the weekend to figuring it out  thanks!


The truth is you can never have too many naturals, unfortunately most of us, I believe, also can use more money too


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## Joshua1970

mainaman said:


> The truth is you can never have too many naturals, unfortunately most of us, I believe, also can use more money too



HA!! well, it's all fiat currency anyhow and tho JNats may not be gold or silver, they do a much better job putting an edge on things than bullion does - AND the value only seems to be rising. 

how's that for rationale?  yep I'm hooked!


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## mainaman

I just realized I have posted only s few of my stones so here a few pics of some of the rest:

Red/Green/Blue aoto in order of fineness, the blue Aoto is the hardest I have seen barely makes any mud, super fine for Aoto.







Wakasa- razor finisher but also not scratchy on soft iron. Has beautiful colors Asagi-Kiita mix.






#24 Atagoyama kiita






Aizu






Hakka






Nkayama







Ohira Renge Suita -makes the coolest pink slurry ever, has a lot of renge


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## Joshua1970

:ubersexy:

all of them... tho I must say the Ohira Renge is just incredibly gorgeous, and I love the Hakka lines and the Nakayama coloration 

SWEET!!!

Again, I'll be sure to post some pics over the weekend


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## DwarvenChef

I can't wait till I get out of this terminal broke period in my life, I really need a few more stones for my razors...


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## bathonuk

At least I can join the J-nat club. These are my first stones and I hope not last. White Binsui and Red Aoto drom JNS. Can't wait to use them. Thanks Maxim


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## Mr.Magnus

My Toishi Ozuku Asagi. Slurrystone from Maxim. he did a great pick on the Tomo


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## gentlecook

*sdsds*

Congratz with your first JNATS !

HF on sharpening way =)


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## gentlecook

Joshua1970 said:


> my current arsenal of stones:
> Okudo Shiro Suita Koppa
> Nakayama Maruka Kiita
> Nakayama Kiita Kan
> Takeshima Karasu
> Ozuku Asagi
> 
> with a Tomo Nagura for each, as well as Asano Nagura progression stones:Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro & Koma



where is the PICTURES ?? :hungry:


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## schanop

This Ohira satisfied my craving for type 24 finisher. A quick test after it landed this morning says that this is a keeper.


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## dmccurtis

Damn.


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## cwrightthruya

That is Awesome!!!!! Hopefully soon I will have its sibling 
I hope you get a lifetime of great use out of it.


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## schanop

The one waiting for you, Chris, looks very very clean. Even seems to be cleaner than the one I just got.

I must say my type 24 craze started after getting Aizu from you.


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## cwrightthruya

schanop said:


> The one waiting for you, Chris, looks very very clean. Even seems to be cleaner than the one I just got.
> 
> I must say my type 24 craze started after getting Aizu from you.



Type 24's are insanely addictive...I'm not sure what it is that is sooo alluring about them. But, I'm glad I could contribute to a fellow Knut and stone fanatic!!!!


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## mainaman

cwrightthruya said:


> Type 24's are insanely addictive...I'm not sure what it is that is sooo alluring about them. But, I'm glad I could contribute to a fellow Knut and stone fanatic!!!!


they are aren't they? I already have ideas what the next one will be.


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## markenki

This beauty just arrived today. My poor photography skills don't even begin to do it justice. Can't wait to try it out, but first I need to seal it.


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## mainaman

markenki said:


> This beauty just arrived today. My poor photography skills don't even begin to do it justice. Can't wait to try it out, but first I need to seal it.


Looks great, make sure to seal the sides.


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## Patatas Bravas

Wonderful suita! Where'd you get it from?


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## markenki

Patatas Bravas said:


> Wonderful suita! Where'd you get it from?


Maksim.


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## bathonuk

Not knifes again but I love it. Watch in HD

[video=youtube;7q4YTpa3Bwg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q4YTpa3Bwg&list=LLtIOnZz1j9pQuaBVyU83F6w[/video]


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## mainaman

bathonuk said:


> Not knifes again but I love it. Watch in HD
> 
> [video=youtube;7q4YTpa3Bwg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q4YTpa3Bwg&list=LLtIOnZz1j9pQuaBVyU83F6w[/video]


I think you got the wrong thread hehe


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## bathonuk

hehehhe this is what's happening when you've got too many pages open in mozilla heh
Can i ask admin to remove my post please and send it to youtube awesome?? thanks


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## maxim

lol it is kind of stones and rocks :rofl2:


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## Patatas Bravas

markenki said:


> Patatas Bravas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonderful suita! Where'd you get it from?
> 
> 
> 
> Maksim.
Click to expand...


Good score! It looked like many of the ones on the JNS site, but when I checked I didn't see it listed there as sold so thought I'd ask. Thanks.


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## Mike Davis

How and why do you seal them? I have no j-nats yet...still a noob


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## maxim

It is done so stone do not crack or brake, it is for reinforcement. 
It dose happen but very rarely, so to be on 100 % safe side it is better to do so. You need to have that stone for your life time and pass it on


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## mainaman

Mike Davis said:


> How and why do you seal them? I have no j-nats yet...still a noob


lacquer on the sides and bottom.


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## markenki

The traditional sealer is cashew lacquer. I use shellac, as it is more easily available to me.


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## mainaman

markenki said:


> The traditional sealer is cashew lacquer.


The traditional sealer is Urushi lacquer, but it causes severe allergic reactions. It also has to be dissolved in turpentine, which does not smell too pleasant IMO.


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## markenki

You are correct. Cashew lacquer is similar to, but not the same as, urushi lacquer.


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## Patatas Bravas

So there's urushi lacquer, cashew lacquer and shellac... which is the best? Shellac?


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## mainaman

Patatas Bravas said:


> So there's urushi lacquer, cashew lacquer and shellac... which is the best? Shellac?


I use Cashew, but it makes sense only if you have a lot fo stones to seal. One can is ~30 bucks for I think 50ml, the good news is it can be diluted a lot.
The easiest option would be Shellac, or some other water proof lacquer, readily available in stores.


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## cwrightthruya

I simply use shellac on most of my stones. For $10 at Lowes, it can't be beaten. However, my best stones are done the "traditional" way, in Urushi. But as Stefan mentioned, and I can attest to the fact, it "can" cause severe allergic reactions. Also, if you are in the US it is quite difficult and expensive to get Urushi, but if you ever get to visit China, Korea, or Japan, it is much easier to come by.


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## dmccurtis

I use clear lacquer. As much as I wanted to do it the traditional way, the cost of getting urushi here was just way too high.


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## maxim

Yeah i think just clear lacquer also will be best, so you can still see the sides of the stone


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## Mike Davis

I am all excited now...Might have to get with you Maxim, and get me some Jnats


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## bathonuk

Ohira Tomae lv4









created by picasa2html.com


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## maxim

With Ohira Range price increased i needed to get one my self 
I gave 3 times more for it them my first one :surrendar::sad0: Well lesson learned hehe 


Here it is


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## markenki

Nice! What are the dimensions?


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## mainaman

Here a few more of the collection:

2x Nakayama Maruichi Maruka Kiita for razors






Big Naguras and small naguras














Ohira Renge Suita Koppa (a huge one), you can see on the side shot that this stone is jam-packed with Renge 










Shinden Sunashu Siuta I think the color is Habutae with Karasu - a razor hone










Yaginoshima Tomae(I think)


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## Patatas Bravas

Show off!


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## maxim

205mm 75mm 40mm


markenki said:


> Nice! What are the dimensions?



This 2 i did not decided yet if i want to sell 
Ohira Damascus Suita 




Okudo Suita dementions 240mm 110mm 30mm


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## maxim

More Pics of 2 Ohira Range i keep for my self


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## Patatas Bravas

I think any of these would make an excellent Deal of the Day. :angel2:


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## mainaman

Finally got around to take pics of my Blue Aoto.
This is a beast of a stone, extremely hard, and releases little slurry. The polish is ~5k level.
The sweetest part is I got it on auction for nothing as an impulse buy.
I added a pic next to my big green Aoto , and one with scale.


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## Patatas Bravas

Bought in on auction? Lucky you! Was it an amazing low price?

I suppose you might not have had any idea of the quality until you received it. How has it turned out?


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## mainaman

Patatas Bravas said:


> I suppose you might not have had any idea of the quality until you received it.


Impulse buy so no I had no idea what it was, but for the price it did not matter if it turned one of the crappy 2k Tamba Aoto that are abundant now.


> How has it turned out?


As I said above ~5k finish, and super hard for Aoto- rather rare features for those stones.


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## Patatas Bravas

mainaman said:


> .. rather rare features for those stones.



I see. Looks nice and sounds great.


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## Aphex

Here's a terrible phone pic of my favourite natural. I'm shure you all know what it is.


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## Patatas Bravas

Nice one. A recent acquisition?


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## markenki

Very nice looking.


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## Aphex

Patatas Bravas said:


> Nice one. A recent acquisition?



Not really, I bought this one years ago.


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## Patatas Bravas

Rooftop view of my current stones, including a few recent purchases. From L to R: Ikarashi, red aoto, green aoto, tsushima, ohira tomae, ohira suita. Thanks to Maxim, ChrisW & Mainaman for recent recommendations & tips.


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## markenki

Nice! How do you like the Ikarashi?


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## Patatas Bravas

markenki said:


> Nice! How do you like the Ikarashi?



Just received it this week. 'Deal of the day' score, though I'd had my eye on it for a while So far so good! 

Opening the package it seemed quite soft and chalky. However, it's harder than I'd thought, has a smooth feeling when sharpening, and give off much slurry, which is a good thing for me. 

I've sharpened a couple of knives now and it left a very nice toothy edge on my white#2 nakiri all on its own. Was impressed.

You have to flatten it when you buy it, though. I have a Naniwa flattening stone and a 400 Atoma and I used them both, but took about an hour. However, this was a good way to get aquainted with the stone and I didn't mind. I just watched something on the tube as I did it.


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## Patatas Bravas

Oops, edit above: meant to write that it doesn't give off much slurry, at lease relative to my expectations


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## bathonuk

Guys I have a quick question/ I have Ohira Tomae lv4 but I didn't had a lot of occasion to use it. I've used it on Ura side od deba and i sharpened Kato on it. How do you use it?? Do you have any suggestions or tricks?? Which knives do you sharpen on it? Thanks in advance.


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## maxim

Hi 

On ura side i usually make light slurry with nagura and take it on slurry, it make more uniform finish and also helps remuve a burr. 

But on that hard stone make sure to make slurry before you use it, and you can use it on any knife


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## pkjames

So, with the red (green) aoto from Maxim, and the Kizuyama suita from schanop (which is also from Maxim).
I can now officially join the club! I am sure more will come 

The Red aoto (actually I think is is a hybrid between red and green, certainly feels harder than schanop's red aoto)





The Kizuyama suita


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## maxim

:doublethumbsup:


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## Patatas Bravas

Yes, this one def looks like it's on the green side rather than red, which should mean it's harder - which I'd probably prefer. Very useful stone, I think you'll find.


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## pkjames

Patatas Bravas said:


> Yes, this one def looks like it's on the green side rather than red, which should mean it's harder - which I'd probably prefer. Very useful stone, I think you'll find.



it's indeed a really nice stone, very easy to work out the mud, and gives much better finish than synthetic stones. I am in fact getting rid of my shapton gs now


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## Bram

Hi J-stoners - thought I'd add something here. These are my most recent additions: greenish akapin atagoyama ('green aoto') from JNS on the right and newly arrived hakka from Japan on the left. The hakka looks quite cool - not sure if you'd call that 'kan' or what? - but I haven't had a chance to try it yet. The green aoto is very handy; interestingly, it gave a far better edge to my stainless petty than all of my other stones, and of course it's great with the carbons too.


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## maxim

Probably the Best Ohira Range Suita i ever seen Type 30 :bigeek:

Just perfect, it is sold now and going to US soon


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## Brad Gibson

Whoa insanely nice jnat!


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## Asteger

Wow! That one is so nice it looks like it's been manufactured to precision!

(Why sell? You should have kept it for your collection


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## maxim

haha i have wayyy to many stones now for my self  I dont even use half of them


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## Asteger

maxim said:


> haha i have wayyy to many stones now for my self  I dont even use half of them



Oh really? Then time for a discount sale!


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## markenki

Wow. Lucky buyer.


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## vinster

Nice stone! It never even made it to the website...


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## vinster

I've gone a bit overboard. Here's my group shot. There are a few others I forgot to bring out, but this is the bulk of them.






Maybe the last time they'll all be seen together.


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## dmccurtis

Nice set. I almost bought that Atagoyama level 3 at bottom right. Lucky you.


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## vinster

dmccurtis said:


> Nice set. I almost bought that Atagoyama level 3 at bottom right. Lucky you.



That Atago is a keeper. Nice soft feel, yet very fine grit. I'm glad I pulled the trigger on it.


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## Asteger

Holy cow!


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## dmccurtis

vinster said:


> That Atago is a keeper. Nice soft feel, yet very fine grit. I'm glad I pulled the trigger on it.



I'll bet you are. But if you ever get sick of it, let me know.


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## maxim

Fatally got this set of total 64 stones !! All is different mines strata and look etc. :cool2:
some very very rare stones in there 

Finishers



Ara, naka, naguras, aoto etc.



Dont get to excited they are only 40mm x 15mm each


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## Asteger

Holy toishi! 

Why have they all been cut so thin? Actually, they don't all look so thin.

Are these for your collection or for sale? What's the idea behind the purchase?


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## maxim

sample display


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## Asteger

maxim said:


> sample display



Nice idea and would be great fun to try some of them. Too bad that Aarhus is, well, nowhere near where I live.

I can't make out all the kanji, and would take me a while to figure them out anyway, but looks like a fantastic assortment.


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## Vangelis

I recently became member of the J-nat club. Just one stone, but I already love it.

A Oohiro Tomae Lv3,5 from Maxim. I tried it only once for sharpening my Hiromoto Gyuto. The progression was 1000K grit, 3000k grit and the Jnat - 1st without nagura and then with -. I am not an expert on sharpening but i was always able to get my knives sharp, however this time it was even sharper than before. 

I also loved the feeling of the stone, it is very responsive and gives me a great feedback - much better than the naniwa snowwhite -. This stone seems to be a great finisher for my Hiro, I dont know how the other knives will match with it but I am sure I will be getting some very good results.

Thanks Maxim

Pics to follow.


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## maxim

Thanks  Happy that you enjoy the stone


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## Asteger

Post photos if you'd like. Always fun to see more naturals.


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## Vangelis

I really have troubles posting pics in this forum ... but will try.


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## vinster

Here's an Ohira family picture:







Mostly on the softer side, though some are a little harder. Some are faster than others. For the most part, they are pretty similar in grit. Not sure why the top left corner is missing in a lot of the stones. Is it some sort of mark?

*** Sorry for the poor picture quality. Google seems to scale my picture down and I cant figure out how to link to the full sized version...


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## CoqaVin

vinster said:


> Here's an Ohira family picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mostly on the softer side, though some are a little harder. Some are faster than others. For the most part, they are pretty similar in grit. Not sure why the top left corner is missing in a lot of the stones. Is it some sort of mark?




LET ME GET ONE OF THOSE LOL!


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## mainaman

vinster said:


> Here's an Ohira family picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mostly on the softer side, though some are a little harder. Some are faster than others. For the most part, they are pretty similar in grit. Not sure why the top left corner is missing in a lot of the stones. Is it some sort of mark?
> 
> *** Sorry for the poor picture quality. Google seems to scale my picture down and I cant figure out how to link to the full sized version...


The ones with cut corner are #30 and are cheaper than those that are perfect shape. The missing corner is along the skin, where two layers of the strata are separated, not cut on purpose.


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## vinster

Here are my stones from Atagoyama (maybe)






Red aoto, green aoto, green nakato, green awasedo, kiita, and kiita. Last 3 are #24 stones, which seem to be more available with the atago mine than others. The green aoto is the most recent addition and I have to say it might be my favorite nakato so far.... smoother and more consistent than any aoto I've tried to date, including an expensive vintage one.


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## Asteger

Vinster, you're shaming the rest of us!


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## vinster

Asteger said:


> Vinster, you're shaming the rest of us!



No no, I'm the one who has to live with piles of rocks to remind me of my issues...


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## Asteger

'Piles of rocks'!? More like a quarry from the sounds of it. Anyway, a good excuse to build your own toishi storage room.


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## Zerob

Takashima & Ikarashi

Thank you maxim. My first jnats


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## CoqaVin

how does that ikarashi perform thinking of getting one for my JNAT setup


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## Olsen

CoqaVin said:


> how does that ikarashi perform thinking of getting one for my JNAT setup



:goodpost:Yup... I'd like to know that too. It should function as kind of bevel setter AFAIK... or??


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## Asteger

Takashima & Ikarashi - nice combo

Yeah, you can start with Ikarashi and avoid synthetics for most sharpenings. If you need a bit more, then use a 1k first (or the JNS 800k: really complements naturals, I think), then move to the Ikarashi next.


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## Zerob

Ikarashi: cuts good for a jnat (1k to 2k as the site says) also leaves an even scratch patter (wish my camera was good at micro shots). I say great for beginners as it doesn't take off a lot fast.






Takashima: simply amazing, great feeling when sharpening, and makes a nice slurry with a splash of water. it also cleans up marks from ikarashi nicely.


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## Asteger

Nothing happening on this thread for a month, and I also haven't noticed much jnat talk on the forums recently. So, to remind everyone that jnats are a lot more interesting than synthetics, thought I'd post a photo. This is basically my current collection where I stack it beside the kitchen.


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Asteger said:


>



That's an impressive set of stones! I guess a few more years of your jnats addiction and you'd have enough materials to build a house out of those bricks :doublethumbsup:


----------



## maxim

i am bit surpriced that Nakayama still have kanji on it :eyebrow:


----------



## Asteger

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> That's an impressive set of stones! I guess a few more years of your jnats addiction and you'd have enough materials to build a house out of those bricks :doublethumbsup:



Thanks, and what an idea! Wow... Imagine: _a tennen toishi house..._



maxim said:


> i am bit surpriced that Nakayama still have kanji on it :eyebrow:



Yeah, I've been slow with the razor thing. But now that I've taken a photo, yes, time to remove that kanji.


----------



## tagheuer

Asteger said:


> Nothing happening on this thread for a month, and I also haven't noticed much jnat talk on the forums recently. So, to remind everyone that jnats are a lot more interesting than synthetics, thought I'd post a photo. This is basically my current collection where I stack it beside the kitchen.



This is indeed very impressive :doublethumbsup:


----------



## Andrey V

Good selection, nice Naguras as well!


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Good selection, nice Naguras as well!



Thanks. Actually, I forgot and left out a few - a bigger Botan and 2 Tsushima, large and small. Very happy with the large Tenjyou I got off of BST from Mainaman; to think that was available for 1 or 2 months without a buyer... ridiculous! As for the small Asano set, very handy and often overlooked. Using nagura is a great asset. Also, small sets aren't hard to get at all - and can be cheap.


----------



## Andrey V

Yeh, yeh, i say always: it's better to be rich and healthy , then poor and ill  - to have a lot of stones in better then not to have them! I agree, the sets are always good, i 've got one from Maksim last week. I like to use Tomonaguras a lot, same on same ( as to me) feel always smoother, finer, better. And sometimes i like to proceed on harder good quality stone with different Naguras in progression rather then change of the finishing stone.


----------



## Andrey V

Tell me pls, if you do like your Tsushima Naguras- i am still thinking, if i do really need also Tsushima. As a JNat fan for sure, but really?? With all the Naguras i have.. No, really, even being JNats nuts


----------



## quantumcloud509

Asteger said:


> Very happy with the large Tenjyou I got off of BST from Mainaman; to think that was available for 1 or 2 months without a buyer... ridiculous!



I believe that thread is still going with a few stones left...in all honesty, if I knew what progression those stones went in and a little bit more about them I would have been paying attention to and jumping on them, but I dont, and have never met anyone in person who does, so unless I ever get showed in person what the stones mean, they have 0 meaning to me. I do have an ohira suita around the 10k grit level, but I dont even know how to talk about that stone in jnat terms.


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Tell me pls, if you do like your Tsushima Naguras- i am still thinking, if i do really need also Tsushima. As a JNat fan for sure, but really?? With all the Naguras i have.. No, really, even being JNats nuts



Actually, there's no Tsushima in the photo above. They'd be black. I have a small Tsushima for slurry (not shown in photo) and I've sold a large JNS one on BST in the past. Large ones are very good - uniform, without any problems, harder and so and razor dudes like them I think. But feel is important to me and it wasn't really my cup of tea.



quantumcloud509 said:


> In all honesty, if I knew what progression those stones went in and a little bit more about them I would have been paying attention to and jumping on them, but I dont, and have never met anyone in person who does, so unless I ever get showed in person what the stones mean, they have 0 meaning to me. I do have an ohira suita around the 10k grit level, but I dont even know how to talk about that stone in jnat terms.



I've never really met anyone who knows about jnats, aside from in Japan. True, it does help to be able to try many stones. On the other hand, there's lots to read and videos to watch, and then things make more sense and you develop preferences, etc, like with anything.

Ohira suita - well, suita can all be different from what I know, and so someone would have to judge themselves or rely on another's opinion or recommendation - a seller or more experienced user - or if not just cross their fingers when purchasing. (Ohira are supposed to be pretty consistent in quality, for example, though there seems to be a big price range.) Of course you'd probably use yours as a finisher, and people love fast and fine suita, especially for tools. Is yours like this? A suita would normally have 'su' or tiny holes that would aid speed, even if myself I think 'speed' is over-rated and often sales-speak - though of course a stone isn't good if it's too slow and doesn't cut either. 

In my case sometimes I like non-fine coarser finishers for many knives and tasks. 'Aoto' stones, or Takashima or Hakka or Tsushima, etc, should be good for this, and not as fine as your suita. These might not erase all scratches from coarse stones, and so some might want to go finer and do this to get the finish they want. On the other hand, I've received a new deba before with a really uniform but still clear scratch pattern, and I thought it looked quite cool, and so I sometimes don't care about obliterating all signs of scratch, and deba don't need to be so fine. I like to use even coarser stones too, because they feel better to me and are more interesting than synthetics, and can help create nice scratch patterns if you want. In the photo above I've got several that are more on the bevel-setter end, a Natsuya, Iyo and 2 Ikarashi, big and small, which could be used in the space between my coarsest synthetics up to the aoto/etc stones mentioned above. Therefore, with these I can avoid touching any synthetic. :cool2:


----------



## quantumcloud509

Awesome answer.


----------



## Andrey V

Thank's Asteger!
i use several naguras in progression, but it depends really ( my experience) what steel do you have.. They all work totally different on different knives ( i do not try to open Amerika to anyone, this is the loud thinking  
I like coarser stones, i have severals, and my experience from it all says that they all are different, even if they have same names, same look etc. And that is the main sh...t! :viking:
But , whatever... It gives completely different feeling, as any synthetic does. That's what thrills me really. 
Today i've got an Okudo Suita, a quite pretty one, but i can not manage to post a picture somehow , sorry..
What i understand with all these Jnats stories- this is a great stuff to employ yourself with something "mystic" either then.. I really get fun from it, i like it a lot, i use it a lot, but there are the great Big Boys toys, same as many others, and i like it. The main thing is a "dance" around the mines/names/stratas etc- it's really funny! it is to take seriously into consideration, no doubt, but anyhow, this is the funny stuff! let us enjoy it! 
:justkidding:


----------



## Asteger

I think learning about naturals is kind of like, for example, learning about wine - though more difficult and expensive. With wines you would traditionally have an idea of how something will be based on the AOC or vintage or, now, the brand or varietals, and with stones you have the layers and the mines and only occasionally a kind of 'brand'. The wine trade, names and AOCs of course are way more organized and transparent, though still often not. Anyway, if the natural business were still big in Japan, they'd probably have more of a system: standard naming conventions, quality assessments, and so on. Instead you hope that someone can test and recommend stones to you first, or that a stone is an Asano or Maruichi or Maruka or Asano, etc. Too bad there isn't more of that. Though on the other hand, if you start to learn a bit and can dig around, because people don't know and there aren't clear standards, then you might be able to find a bargain too.


----------



## Andrey V

Totally agree, Asteger. I'am quite experience in matter of wines . 
I dig a lot also in Jnats for now. I have not a huge, but quite good collection, having not only some simple Awasedos, but also good Nakayamas Kiita, Different Suitas ( Shinden, Okudo as well), some other stones etc. i agree, the matter of stratas, layers, Tomae or Suita, Uchigumori or whatever, that is clear. You know, in wines you have to know not only the terroir or the vineyard, but also the millesime. BUT: inside the millesime, and taken from same vineyard the wine can differ only if you are not lucky with the cork. With Jnats it seems to be different- you can immagine, knowing that this mine gives in generally softer stones, and that the more harder one, than this layer is softer rather then that etc. And then comes the question is transparency with the sellers 
The market is quite limited, this is more like the amplifiers for vinyl stuff ( my old passion). You have the lamps, but you never know if it will work as it should be before testing it ..
Same here- you know more or less the features ( from different sourses), but in reality before you try it with your own hands and knives...
That is thrilling, that is the kind of play, wether you've guessed or not...
But in general - i like it, i use it, i will continue it etc! 
This week i'll get ( i hope) some great stones. Fine! And 2 great knives ( one of them is Shige Kitaeji!!). Tomorrow i pick up a Nakayama Kiita Nashiji, so, it's great! I'm still in doubt reg Tsushima, but this is more the idea whether to order it or not. Of course i will, and for sure from Maksim. Do i need it? Not sure. Will i order it? Sure! 
So keep in touch et let us get the fun from it!


----------



## CoqaVin

Asteger or anyone...have u used blue aoto? What would a good progression be blue aoto ikarashi then something like a takashima awawswedo


----------



## CoqaVin

Wjat before the aoto?,if anything


----------



## Andrey V

Hi, CoqaVin,
I have got a latest blue Aoto from Maksim, + i have a different one. 
The question is- what do you use before ( i use some coarser stones, like Amakusa, White Bunsui). Of course, if your knife is a pretty dull one . 
The Blue Aoto from Maks is rather hard, so do not expect some quick slurry as soon as you start using it ( as with the regular Aoto). My Aotos ( the one i have and the other from Max) have even same stickers on their sides, but are COMPLETELY different ( this is to continue my thoughts exchange with Asteger). 
I "help" the Blue Aoto with some Nagura - i use a Botan for it. Or a diamond nagura. Since you have some slurry, it works good. But as a finisher... I am not sure.. Of course, it depends on your knives. I use mostly Aogami/Shirogami ( all the 1/2 Super), Sweden steel, sone PM's, so quite hard with rates over 60 Rockwell. For softer steels or steel alloys ( like 57-58), f.ex Global knives etc- it can work. The finish is not that nice, but cloudy, and you will get sone " microserrator" . If you like it- welcome! But a good finishing stone is a good finishing stone ! I would advise you ( just sharing my experience, if you allow) to get one 3-4 lv hard and a 3 Set of naguras from Maksim- and that will work great!


----------



## Andrey V

I have completely forgotten all the synthetic stones, though some (8000 grits) gut very good! But being the Jnat " crazy"... 
So- Amakusa/White Bunsui - great stuff , especially for softer steels


----------



## Asteger

CoqaVin said:


> Asteger or anyone...have u used blue aoto? What would a good progression be blue aoto ikarashi then something like a takashima awawswedo



Yes, Ikarashi -> good aoto -> Takashima would be great. However, aoto are generally considered to be good knife finishers anyway (the 'king of knife finishers' or something like that) - unless you want to go extra fine like many KKFers seem to prefer. The term 'aoto' is used in many ways, though, so it's hard to generalize about them, though generally you'd still imagine that they're grey/bluish/blackish and from the Tanba area in west Kyoto. If you mean the recent 'blue aoto' on JNS, I haven't tried one, but I assume they're good and a nice price if they are. And by the way 'ao' means 'blue' and 'to' means 'stone' and so by definition an aoto is a 'blue stone'. (So odd for us to call aoto 'red blue stone' or 'green blue stone' or 'blue blue stone' etc.)


----------



## Andrey V

Agree. You need the finer ( and much more expensive) stones only if you really care about extremely fine up to perfect finish. That what most Jnat's users like ( otherwise you take Shapton, Naniwa, JCK custom etc 8000 grit et voila)
The JNS Blue Aoto ( funny, blue blue stone) is really harder then others similar, give a pretty sharp cutting edge, but is not so quick, one should work rather hard on it. My observation: some nagura ( depends on your needs) is needed, because it helps a lot, here can be used ( my opinion as well) the diamond nagura, the fine one, like DMT 1200. 
And anyhow- the harder the steel, the finer the stone. Under 58 no need to go up, waste of money. The great " bite" will be achieved already with Aoto, but the real " rafinesse" - with good finishers and good investment... Again: my observations.


----------



## JDA_NC

+1 to what was said about the current blue aoto being sold

I'm still working on learning its quirks. I also don't know if it's just crusty/dried out - I don't break in any of my naturals b/c I only have a cheap, not so flat diamond plate. I figure it does more harm than good. I was really surprised (even though Maxim mentions it is harder and finer than most aotos) by just how hard, fine & not so muddy it is. I couldn't work up any mud putting serious pressure on the edge - it wasn't until I laid the blade flat that it started to mud up. It's fairly slow cutting as well.

I've put basically my whole kit on it & it reacts well to carbon and leaves a nice edge on it. Surprisingly it also worked well with my Gesshin Ginga stainless, which is some swedish stainless AFAIK, but it really didn't like any of my more inexpensive stainless. Not surprised there, but I wanted to at least try.

I bought a set of Asano naguras from Maxim as well, not because I thought I'd need them with my Hakka or Aoto, but when you factored in free shipping it only cost me around $10 - glad I did. I've been using them on my aoto as well after the first knife, and it helps a lot with this stone.

All in all, I'm happy I got it. It's not as soft or muddy as I'd like, but it's slow dishing, inexpensive, and leaves a pretty good edge once you work at it


----------



## Andrey V

Exaclty what i mean- same experience with my Blue Aoto from Maksim. Very hard, no mud, slow, but: some nagura helps a lot! AND: with the nagura it becomes totally different in comparisson to my " normal" Aoto. So to say: this Blue Aoto can be used up to me as a finer stone then the soft muddy Aoto.
Reg diamond plate: i preffer not to use it on fine expensive stones as nagura, but here it really helps a lot. Botan works great on it. The stone needs some " kick". The stone is consistant, hard, has a very uniform body, is also heavier in comparisson to same size " normal" Aoto ( wich means is harder and finer). And considering it's price+ Maksim's service it's a gift!! Use this possibility! Recommended !


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## CoqaVin

Andrey V said:


> Exaclty what i mean- same experience with my Blue Aoto from Maksim. Very hard, no mud, slow, but: some nagura helps a lot! AND: with the nagura it becomes totally different in comparisson to my " normal" Aoto. So to say: this Blue Aoto can be used up to me as a finer stone then the soft muddy Aoto.
> Reg diamond plate: i preffer not to use it on fine expensive stones as nagura, but here it really helps a lot. Botan works great on it. The stone needs some " kick". The stone is consistant, hard, has a very uniform body, is also heavier in comparisson to same size " normal" Aoto ( wich means is harder and finer). And considering it's price+ Maksim's service it's a gift!! Use this possibility! Recommended !



What is a good finisher for under 300


----------



## jklip13

Here is a new Nakayama I got


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## Asteger

jklip13 said:


> Here is a new Nakayama I got



Beauty! A koppa? Where'd you order from?



CoqaVin said:


> What is a good finisher for under 300



How about a Takashima - from JNS or aFrames, etc. However, there are lots of awasedo (finishers) for under 300; they are generally the tomae layer, but there are also some suita too. As usual, you're never quite sure how they'll be until you try them.


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## jklip13

A friend sold it to me along with a maruka


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## Andrey V

Oh, the Nakayama is nice! I've just got one, i love it. Is a bit hard, but rather quick and it looks awsome!
Congratulations, jklip13!


----------



## simar

I have recently come to learn about Jnats, here are the few finishers I have managed to collect so far. L to R: Ohira, Ozuku, Nakayama


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## jklip13

man I hate to see that Maruka go
-Jon


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## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> What is a good finisher for under 300



The good solution would be ( if you look at JNS Maksim's offer) :
- an Okunomon Lv 3 - very affordable price and a good stone as well - hurry or i do it  
- or Oohira Tomae Lv 4 - a rather hard one, but take a set-of-3-Naguras ( i would advise a Tomo Nagura as well) - and you have a pretty cool hard" finishing board" with slurry generators, that will allow you to change the gritness of the stone using different Naguras, and to finish with it's own slurry ( will be rather hard to get ir, but..) - if you need the semi-polished edge. The Kasumi or Mirror is anyhow better to see on single bevelled knives rather then on double bevelled. On western knives you polish the cutting edge. Oohira ggives you this. Or just stop on Toma Nagura. That will be a pretti cool set( Oohira+Naguras)
- a Takashima ( + Naguras)
- an Atagoyama - this is more expensive, but looks to a very nice finisher. And the size........ This is a real BRICK!!
So, you have enough to choose from  
-


----------



## vinster

simar said:


> I have recently come to learn about Jnats, here are the few finishers I have managed to collect so far. L to R: Ohira, Ozuku, Nakayama



I saw that Nakayama on the website and I was ready to buy it... then I realized it was sold! :curse:

I've been trying to get my hands on a nice nakayama kiita but no luck yet. Much of what's out there is hard and not ideal for knives...


----------



## Andrey V

hi to everybody here
what could you tell me reg this stone?


----------



## Andrey V

I've got it under the name Gobyoyama Tomae Ikimurasaki - is pretty nice, is tretty hard, but cuts VERRRY good,creating a nice sticky slurry, harder then Suitas, finer as well ( i feel it like 10000+ ), leaves very nice finish, is great even after Suitas to get the perfect edge. very heavy for it's size ( ok, Tomae, very consistant and it confirms again it's fine structure)
I 've never heard this name before, the only traces i have found were on some blogs in Japan saying in eng that it is a rare stone , very fine, similar to a very good Nakayama Kiita. Whatever- the result is great, i like it already, let it be the part of my "Tennen Toishi House"  
Later i will show the photos while and after the sharpening


----------



## Andrey V

that's it


----------



## CoqaVin

looks cool andrey


----------



## Asteger

Can't see your picture, Andrey


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## CoqaVin

right click and copy the image url then paste it in a new browser window


----------



## Asteger

CoqaVin said:


> right click and copy the image url then paste it in a new browser window



Cheers!

Andrey - This one looks like it's from Totoriya, no?


----------



## CoqaVin

i would post a picture from that link but I do not understand Russian :dontknow:


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> right click and copy the image url then paste it in a new browser window



It does not work with my images! That' s why i have tried to insert it over fttp server. It works only with images posted on other sites( i have copied one from there) and that makes me crazy . ( believe me, i know, what's the right click- on my pc i see only " copy image" and no " copy url" . I will find the solution, the images from the last stones are just awesome!


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Cheers!
> 
> Andrey - This one looks like it's from Totoriya, no?



No, it is not. But the stone is pretty cool. And it's a fine finisher, i must say! It works great on softer (58-59 Rockwell) stainless steels, and very good on my favorite high- carbons. I wanted to use it after Suitas, as an ultimate final finisher, and it works! Very heavy, very consistent, a piece-of-solid-rock, quite expensive as well.


----------



## Andrey V

vinster said:


> I saw that Nakayama on the website and I was ready to buy it... then I realized it was sold! :curse:
> 
> I've been trying to get my hands on a nice nakayama kiita but no luck yet. Much of what's out there is hard and not ideal for knives...


I use a very good Nakayama Nashiji Kiita- i love it! Yeh, it's a bit hard, but it cuts! It's quick, fine, gives a very smooth feeling. And it looks so cool... It gives the thick dark grey to black slurry, even without nagura. Leaves a finish .... I love it! Even more then my very fine Okudo Suita!! Often seems to be too hard for knives but great for razors, but can be good for knives as well! Maksim has a great one Nakayama Kiita right now, i 've checked it yesterday. Later i'll post an image of mine while sharpening ( dry/wet/ slurry/finish)


----------



## Andrey V

Andrey V said:


> It does not work with my images! That' s why i have tried to insert it over fttp server. It works only with images posted on other sites( i have copied one from there) and that makes me crazy . ( believe me, i know, what's the right click- on my pc i see only " copy image" and no " copy url" . I will find the solution, the images from the last stones are just awesome!



https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd....0x320/1779221_640856015973524_103939990_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd....x320/1796671_640856009306858_1612623992_n.jpg
voila - it works over Facebook


----------



## Andrey V

Andrey
[IMG said:


> https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/q77/s320x320/1796671_640856009306858_1612623992_n.jpg[/IMG]
> voila - it works over Facebook


----------



## Andrey V

another nice finisher - bought as Kiiro Suita Sunashi - works great on VG10, PM steels, also some high-carbons. Create good mud quickly. I like it


----------



## Andrey V

i like this stone as well


----------



## Andrey V

and one more- actually bought as Okudo Suita ( looks very similar to those i've seen before, who knows??) - it has Su , it cuts well, the stone is rather hard, i like the stone a lot.


----------



## Asteger

Excellent! Great to see the pictures.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Excellent! Great to see the pictures.



I have more, these are just some to enter the club


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Asteger said:
> 
> 
> 
> This one looks like it's from Totoriya, no?
> 
> 
> 
> No, it is not.
Click to expand...


I had a 2nd look, and the first 2, the Gobyoyama and sunashi suita, are definitely Totoriya - originally at least. Those are their stamps.  Supposedly very nice stones, so it's a good thing.


----------



## JDA_NC

Andrey V said:


> another nice finisher - bought as Kiiro Suita Sunashi - works great on VG10, PM steels, also some high-carbons. Create good mud quickly. I like it



I like this stone a lot!! Where would it be in your progression?


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> I had a 2nd look, and the first 2, the Gobyoyama and sunashi suita, are definitely Totoriya - originally at least. Those are their stamps.  Supposedly very nice stones, so it's a good thing.



reg Totoriya - yes, seems to be their stamp,no doubt, but bought outside Japan.
The stones are really outstanding and absolutely different. Both are great finishers, but Gobyoyama is harder ( that's clear , Tomae strata) - and finer as well, anyway these are great toishi!


----------



## Andrey V

JDA_NC said:


> I like this stone a lot!! Where would it be in your progression?



if you mean Kiiro Sunashi Suita - this is a fine finisher - so the progression would be ( depends on how dull the knife is- but to start from a very dull one) : Amakusa-Bunsui-Aoto(soft)-Aoto( the hard one from Maksim)-Sunashi- (if i need the extremely fine edge)-Nakayama/Gobyoyama
Instead of Sunashi there coule be any other good finisher with in lv 2,5-4 ( i have some to choose from) - it depends on steel type, of course.
That's it!


----------



## Asteger

2 Ikarashi: The big one is new and the smaller is my original, now sold. I like these a lot and was hoping for a larger one, but didn't know they existed in the same quality until recently, and then - _voilà!_ A stroke of luck, and easily a type-24. They're both quite blue in this photo because they'd been in water, which really brings out the colour. 

I've already lapped the top and bottom of the big one somewhat as these come rough and not ready for use, and I've started to smooth the ends and sides to improve the shape and get rid of the weathered stains and dark stuff. The mine these are from closed over 50 years ago, and so you can imagine how these must have been sitting around somewhere in storage unloved. It's going to take some more time, but the new one should end up looking like a large light blue luminescent marble brick by the time I'm finished.


----------



## Andrey V

My new Shinden Suita- great stone!!!! and some new Uchugumori with some Yoshinogami, new Tomonaguras





and my new Shigefusa Kitaeji  !!


----------



## Asteger

I'd love to try out a good Shinden.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> I'd love to try out a good Shinden.


This one is awesome... Very smooth, all the visible lines are non-toxic, the stone is semi-transparent ( it is actually not, but you get this feeling, similar to Okudo Suita), and has a lovely color when wet.. I have invested some time till i've got it, i tell you. But this one is just an outstanding performer.
I'm "dancing around" a beautuful Nakayama Karasu, and a nice one Nakayama Kiita.. If i 'll manage it- i'll show it for sure!


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> I'm "dancing around" a beautuful Nakayama Karasu, and a nice one Nakayama Kiita.. If i 'll manage it- i'll show it for sure!



Well, your stone exploits are the stuff of dreams!


----------



## CoqaVin

vintage aoto from maxims personal collection 

tried it out on a stupid henckles I had in the back of the kitchen drawer and this thing raises a burr like no other best stone I have hands down THANKS MAXIM


----------



## Asteger

CoqaVin said:


> vintage aoto from maxims personal collection - tried it out on a stupid henckles I had in the back of the kitchen drawer and this thing raises a burr like no other best stone I have hands down THANKS MAXIM



More photos? More info? Sounds great


----------



## CoqaVin

what would you like to know?

I asked Maxim what I needed and he said it would do better than an Ikarashi and I am rather happy and from Denmark to the US so fast great service!


----------



## Asteger

CoqaVin said:


> what would you like to know? I asked Maxim what I needed and he said it would do better than an Ikarashi and I am rather happy and from Denmark to the US so fast great service!



Different stones: Ikarashi are not meant as finishers and aoto are, I think, favourite traditional finishers for kitchen knives. Aoto also generally have unknown origins, so I'm curious if more is known about this one and which mine it is, etc. (Often this isn't known so no problem, as long as it's good.)


----------



## CoqaVin

Maxim can you reply as to what mine this is from?


----------



## Asteger

CoqaVin said:


> Maxim can you reply as to what mine this is from?



:thumbsup: Also, I've you've got a good old aoto, you're quite lucky. There are some real devotees.


----------



## CoqaVin

I am becoming quite the devotee with my first "Vintage" stone 

All I need for now is a nice Coarse stone the Amakusa is not cutting it


----------



## banjo1071

Hi everyone
I recently got addicted too. I aquired some stones directly from japan and was sometimes puzzled by the funny googletranslation. Maybe you could help me out. Of course "nest plate" is suita, "zhongshan" is sometime nakayama, "Wheel" is whetstone, "crow" is karasu and so on. 
But was is: 
Iris
nitta subang
motoyama
...

Could someone help me here?

Thans a lot
Benjamin


----------



## jklip13

Iris = Renge


----------



## jklip13

And from what I can see from pictures Nitta Subang is probable either Okudo or Shinden Suita


----------



## Asteger

banjo1071 said:


> Hi everyone
> I recently got addicted too. I aquired some stones directly from japan and was sometimes puzzled by the funny googletranslation. Maybe you could help me out. Of course "nest plate" is suita, "zhongshan" is sometime nakayama, "Wheel" is whetstone, "crow" is karasu and so on.
> But was is:
> Iris
> nitta subang
> motoyama
> ...
> 
> Could someone help me here?
> 
> Thans a lot
> Benjamin



Haha, yes. You probably know, but the trouble is auto-translations of Japanese work very poorly and we often get the literal meanings of the kanji. Kanji can also have different pronunciations and implications.

'Iris' = Shobu &#33750;
'Nitta subang' = Shinden suita &#26032;&#30000;&#24035;&#26495;
'Motoyama' = Honyama &#26412;&#23665;

I have no idea what 'subang' is supposed to mean (in Indonesian/Malay it means 'earring') or why some things ('zhongshan' for example) are translated into Chinese and not English. It's not easy, and big advantage if you can actually read some of the Japanese. Probably why few people on KKF look to buy this way.



jklip13 said:


> Iris = Renge



renge is &#34030;&#33775; or 'lotus'


----------



## Tosho

Thanks for the info! good to know


----------



## vinster

Here are some of my stones that *might* be kiita:




"kiita" roughly translates to yellow plate or something like that, but I've read that it ranges from lime green to all shades of yellow... so my question is this. Does kiita refer to any particular strata? Is it just from the namito layer? Can suita stones be classified as kiita? Tomae stones? Or is it purly used to describe the color?

Which of these (if any) would be considered kiita?


----------



## jklip13

Thanks for correcting me Asteger, still learning


----------



## Asteger

vinster said:


> "kiita" roughly translates to yellow plate or something like that, but I've read that it ranges from lime green to all shades of yellow... so my question is this. Does kiita refer to any particular strata? Is it just from the namito layer? Can suita stones be classified as kiita? Tomae stones? Or is it purly used to describe the color? Which of these (if any) would be considered kiita?



I've seen stones of more than one stratum named kiita, so I don't think there's any rule about which strata they come from, though of course kiita colours are likely to occur in certain strata more than others. Not completely sure about this, but my feeling is: a mine is a mine and a stratum is a stratum, but other names you encounter like kiita, karasu, renge, habutae, etc, can just be used when seen fit as they're subjective. It probably only takes a stone seller or owner to say, 'Look my stone is yellowish, so it's a kiita.' Therefore, I think you can probably say that any of those stones are kiita.

On the other hand, I think when people think of kiita I think they imagine nakayama or honyama, as those are the traditional and coveted ones, and therefore kiita probably implies origin in that sense. In your photo, I don't think anyone would dispute that honyama on the left is a kiita, nor the second one with the Kyoto tennen toishi stamp.

So I think the above is probably right, but no guarantees. None of us are real stone experts on KKF!


----------



## maxim

Sorry guys i have still many things to do and did not fully recovered yet, so all my replies is very slow  

it is from Tamba, but Tamba is not a mine just a region. So it can be from many places 

As it is quite old Aoto i have no idea where it comes from  Sorry 



CoqaVin said:


> Maxim can you reply as to what mine this is from?


----------



## maxim

I think most of us here know more about stone then many many Japanese Natural stone retailers. 
So you are bit wrong about that 
Noone really cers about mines or stratas come from, most of Japanese care more about how stone work. 



Asteger said:


> None of us are real stone experts on KKF!


----------



## Asteger

maxim said:


> I think most of us here know more about stone then many many Japanese Natural stone retailers. So you are bit wrong about that. Noone really cers about mines or stratas come from, most of Japanese care more about how stone work.



I didn't mean that many natural sellers in Japan are experts, though I'm sure some know their stuff, and there certainly are some experts too. But okay, I'll follow you as it's more fun and I've changed my mind: we are experts! :angel2:


----------



## Asteger

maxim said:


> Sorry guys i have still many things to do and did not fully recovered yet, so all my replies is very slow



... Also, hope you feel better again soon. In the mean time, we'll try and enjoy ourselves with the discussions here.


----------



## CoqaVin

Hope you feel better Maxim! 

Thanks Again much appreciated...


----------



## maxim

Asteger said:


> I didn't mean that many natural sellers in Japan are experts, though I'm sure some know their stuff, and there certainly are some experts too. But okay, I'll follow you as it's more fun and I've changed my mind: we are experts! :angel2:



I think expertise come from trying so many stones as possible  
Almost all stone vendors in Japan dont try out stones before they sell them. And some do but not on knives. usually on chisels or on kanna blades 
Thats why i think some of us have more knowledge what work best for knives razors etc .


----------



## JDA_NC

My lil' collection: blue Aoto, Hakka & Monzento











I'm very happy with all three but I love, love, love the Hakka. Smooth, soft, and muddy. Just a real pleasure to sharpen on and it leaves an incredible edge on my knives. I've wrote about the Aoto earlier in this thread - still working on figuring out how to utilize it best. The Monzento is my most recent purchase and I'm having a lot of fun playing with it.


----------



## charles222

maxim said:


> I think expertise come from trying so many stones as possible
> Almost all stone vendors in Japan dont try out stones before they sell them. And some do but not on knives. usually on chisels or on kanna blades
> Thats why i think some of us have more knowledge what work best for knives razors etc .


 
That's actually really interesting. I would assume the opposite.


----------



## tagheuer

JDA_NC said:


> I'm very happy with all three but I love, love, love the Hakka. Smooth, soft, and muddy. Just a real pleasure to sharpen on and it leaves an incredible edge on my knives.



That's one very beautiful Hakka.


----------



## Asteger

JDA_NC said:


> My lil' collection: blue Aoto, Hakka & Monzento ... I'm very happy with all three but I love, love, love the Hakka. Smooth, soft, and muddy. Just a real pleasure to sharpen on and it leaves an incredible edge on my knives. I've wrote about the Aoto earlier in this thread - still working on figuring out how to utilize it best. The Monzento is my most recent purchase and I'm having a lot of fun playing with it.



Thanks for posting the photos. Yes, nice-looking Hakka.

About the aoto being 'blue' Vinster has a theory that they could be called blue because of the paper label many come with. (Like 'blue steel' I guess.) It's possible....

How similar are the aoto and the monzento? I think they're mined very close to each other. It takes some effort to get a good aoto, and I hear mixed impressions of the monzento which, I think, can sometimes be too soft or sandy. (For instance, I notice they're not carried on JNS.) How would you describe yours?


----------



## Asteger

charles222 said:


> Originally Posted by maxim
> 
> _I think expertise come from trying so many stones as possible
> Almost all stone vendors in Japan dont try out stones before they sell them. And some do but not on knives. usually on chisels or on kanna blades
> Thats why i think some of us have more knowledge what work best for knives razors etc ._
> 
> That's actually really interesting. I would assume the opposite.



Makes sense when you think of it. The number of naturals sold for knives appears to be small, and stone sellers and tool users seem to have the strongest connection in Japan. Sellers on the internet also deal in tools and other things and so it'd seem unlikely that they'd be testing with knives, though some do or can if you request. They're probably also not the types to cook. Internet sales is a new thing too, and I don't think many are good at it and I think the normal thing would probably be for a local client to visit a seller and try out a stone himself with some general suggestions about which might work well with knives. Of course having a mix of good know-how and also being able to test the stone would be best.


----------



## Andrey V

Dave has inspired me so much ( with his Hiromoro full SPA treatment) - i can't do the same- so i started to change my Hiromoto using Ohira Uchigumori Hazuya ( a softer one), then Juzuya ( a harder one), then i added the Takashima slurry (Max- your Takashima is really outstanding!) - it looks already much better  - i have to work around the bolster, and even more to achieve the ultimate finish.
2 days invested ( 2 hours +1,5 hours ) - et voilà - i like the change already a lot- it's silky, hazy, very fine. The difference between it's native finish ( a mirror) and Kasumi is big, 4-5 next days at least - and that will be a piece, i hope. It has an Augami Super core- i like to use it , is one of my "work horses".


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Very nice finish on this Hiromoto Andrey! :thumbsup:


----------



## Andrey V

Thank's


----------



## Andrey V

Today i've got my new white Ohira Suita with beautiful purple-reddish Renge on it. Nice stone, cuts so quick! I wonder it it will match my new Mizu-Honyaki, which i've bought today . Maksim has to supply a bunch of great knives! Itinomonn, Kato, Mizu- Honyaki Gyuto 240.. Nice stuff...
I'll make the photos later


----------



## panda

what is the monzento like?


----------



## JDA_NC

panda said:


> what is the monzento like?



Very soft & very, very muddy

Give it a quick rub with water/your hand and it'll start to kick up mud - which is awesome because that's what I was looking for. Compared to the Aoto I have which is much finer, harder, and takes a lot of work to raise any substantial mud.

I'm interested in seeing how much it dishes.

I was touching up my Hiromoto AS gyuto today on it and I was shocked by how quickly it raised a burr. I was going to jump up to another stone after the Monzento but the edge it left was stupid good. Hyper toothy & sticky to the touch.... tore through all the types of paper I had in the house like it was nothing. I've been taking my edges to more refined grits lately and I forgot just how nice that can feel sometime. I'll see how it holds up through a few shifts.


----------



## JDA_NC

I don't know if it was a lucky day for me or a mix of focusing on my technique & the stone itself - but the edge I got today felt like that sweet spot between a 1k grit stone and something like a Rika 5k. I leave some of my knives with a JNS 800 edge (which I feel is more 1-2k) and it's not as rough feeling as that, but also not as polished feeling as an edge off the Rika.


----------



## panda

i wish you could get them in half size, i was interested in one of those before i got a fine aoto. mine leaves around 5k finish and i sometimes feel a toothy 4k edge is preferable.


----------



## Andrey V

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Very nice finish on this Hiromoto Andrey! :thumbsup:



now, after some more days and hours of fine precise work it has become much better!


----------



## Andrey V

My new great Nakayama




i've got a very fine Ohira Shiro Renge Suita ( white Suita with beautiful reddish/purple pattern on it)- is pretty quick




a new Takashima from Maksim



,


----------



## Andrey V

and a good Ohira Uchigomori - i will round up one side to polish the sides of the knifes, besides the fingerstones.




a coppa from Ohira - Uchigomori to break down for fingerstones, which i love to use a lot for ultimate finish


----------



## Andrey V

My new very uncommon looking Nakayama Suita- i could not resist, the color is so nice- it's very homogen despite it's pattern, no toxic lines or dots to damage the blade or even to feel them while sharpening. It's so nice while wet.. really nice- and very quick as well- though it works MUCH better on high-carbons then on stainless steel- the best result is on Shirogami 1 - the worthest on VG10 !



,





and some of my "raw material" Ohira Uchigumori with Yoshinogami paper ( the used one, but it's ok  





and some new Tomonaguras, like this one very beautiful Okudo - i can use it to sharpen the Kuri Koganata, for example




So , if i 'll continue to "burn' the money in that way, the time for a small Tennen Toishi House will come soon!


----------



## Asteger

Oh boy, someone's been busy. Very nice! 

Andrey, I've actually received some Yoshino-gami with 2 stones I bought, but do you know anything more about it? Is there a use? I thought it was just decorative and threw it out. Also, how do you plan to round up the one side of the bigger uchigumori? Oh, and very nice Nakayama - the crazy one.


----------



## Andrey V

Hi, Asteger,
Yehh, the stones are great, i tell you, the white Ohira Renge Suita is great as well , and super fast, i tell you! Though my love to Nakayamas never ends.... 
The Yoshino gami paper is used to reinforce the fingerstones, to glue it on and polish them down to get the very thin fingerstone to polish the blade. I use them often ( you can see it above)- nice, isn't it? I mean the Hiromoto. 
I will round it using a diamond plate and the coarser stones( also some artificial stones in 280-1500 grit), i'd like to form a shape i will use to pre-finish the sides of the knives. Before my fingerstones. The dust will be used as a stone powder ( in combination with some other finer stones) - we will see! 
Which Nakayama you like more- the killer from above or the smaller bizarre looking one? Both perform great. Typically Nakayama. I have sone other ad well, they all are a little bit different, but always great. One performs better on stainless steels, the other on carbons, being very slow on ss etc- the nature as it is... Amazing..


----------



## Andrey V

And finally : i've got a new Big Tsushima Nagura - nice as well, a very good prefinisher, could be used à la place d'Aoto . I use it also for smoothing the surface after lapping on finishers. This was Maksim's Thushima! A very good one!


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> The Yoshino gami paper is used to reinforce the fingerstones, to glue it on and polish them down to get the very thin fingerstone to polish the blade. I use them often



Ah yes, of course. Should have realized. Yes, yoshinogami can look quite good. (By the way, 'gami' already means 'paper' so no need to call it yoshinogami paper. Maybe just yoshino paper or yoshinogami are okay.)



Andrey V said:


> I will round it using a diamond plate and the coarser stones( also some artificial stones in 280-1500 grit), i'd like to form a shape i will use to pre-finish the sides of the knives. Before my fingerstones. The dust will be used as a stone powder ( in combination with some other finer stones) - we will see!..



Try and post photos of the process and/or result. I don't think many people know about this. 



Andrey V said:


> And finally : i've got a new Big Tsushima Nagura - nice as well, a very good prefinisher, could be used à la place d'Aoto . I use it also for smoothing the surface after lapping on finishers. This was Maksim's Thushima! A very good one!



I'm not sure if you know, but Tsushima were mined in 2 places, on land from a mountain and underwater off the coast of Tsushima, which is an island between Japan and Korea. Sometimes sellers specify Tsushima stones as 'mountain' or 'sea' and the sea ones are reputed to be best. Do you know the origin of this one?


----------



## Andrey V

No, i don't. Better to ask Maksim.
I have heard this before, but not sure where is it from.. Will try to find it out
Reg " Gami"- Shirogami, Aogami, Yoshinigami- yes, i know. Same like blue Aoto 
Just told it and that's all, shouldn't be critical, the other info is more important, isn't it?


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Reg " Gami"- Shirogami, Aogami, Yoshinigami- yes, i know. Same like blue Aoto  Just told it and that's all, shouldn't be critical, the other info is more important, isn't it?



Absolutely not. This is crucial! :angel2:


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Absolutely not. This is crucial! :angel2:



Ohhhh, 
You know, when the people want to understand eachother- they do it, when they have other intentions -they do it as well. 
This is crucial! 
I thought always, that the guys share here some ideas, their own experience etc- this is the open blog zone , isn't it?? 
So- only for you: Yoshino paper, or just japanese paper, even without any special name, or even a piece of something to reinforce the fingerstone- important- it should work, with a mantra or without it .


----------



## Asteger

Andrey, do you use any particular lacquer? One of these days I'm going to lacquer some of mine, but I've been lazy about getting round to it and also waiting to get natural lacquers. (A friend is holding some urushi, etc, for me that I have to pick up.) I'm assuming the new Tsushima is lacquered; the one I had from JNS had already been lacquered and paper-reinforced, and I was just reading in another place today how it is important for Tsushima which always seem to be lacquered.

Yoshino - Might be made from rice as I've heard of 'rice paper' being used with lacquer. Could make sense as it the yoshino I had was thinner, and so probably would be easier to work with.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Andrey, do you use any particular lacquer? One of these days I'm going to lacquer some of mine, but I've been lazy about getting round to it and also waiting to get natural lacquers. (A friend is holding some urushi, etc, for me that I have to pick up.) I'm assuming the new Tsushima is lacquered; the one I had from JNS had already been lacquered and paper-reinforced, and I was just reading in another place today how it is important for Tsushima which always seem to be lacquered.
> 
> Yoshino - Might be made from rice as I've heard of 'rice paper' being used with lacquer. Could make sense as it the yoshino I had was thinner, and so probably would be easier to work with.



Asteger- you won't believe, today i was surfing through the WEB trying to find something to replace urushi ! I have heard many times that it could be possible to use the cashew shellack instead of. I have found it already ( de- waxed version). 
I'll try on a Takashima, it needs quick lacquering. My Tsushima has been already protected. My old good Jnats ( Ohiras, Nakayamas, Shinden, Okudo etc have the same protection). 
I suppose that not only Yoshino could be used as a reinforcement, actually ( i suppose ) some thin fabrics, why not?? Or even some fine fibers, with a very fine structure.


----------



## TaJ

Andrey, could you share a link please? I'll get the stone i brought from Asteger soon and i might want to laquer it as well. I thought shellac and cashew were different ones. What i'm looking for is a clear laquer, so i'll still see the stone


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Is that really that important what chemical you'll use to protect the stone? After all JNATs are just stones and the only function of lacquer is to protect stone from water/humidity. Right?

My experience though is limited to only one stone. I got Takashima from JNS and following Maxim's advice covered it with shellac. Quick, cheap and works fine. Maybe I'm missing something but it works for me.


----------



## Asteger

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Is that really that important what chemical you'll use to protect the stone? After all JNATs are just stones and the only function of lacquer is to protect stone from water/humidity. Right?



It's a good question, but I'm not sure anyone here really knows about this. On one hand, we can play it safe (if we can get the materials) and use traditional methods. On the other hand, I think people like Maxim and other (mostly former) KKF big collectors also use cheaper and available lacquers where they live. Not sure to what extent the lacquers are artificial. 

There might be some concern about the stability and chemisty of the stone material, beyond the more physical things we see, when using any kind of lacquer. These rocks were deep within mountains, etc, for millenia and perhaps solvents are not the healthiest and most stable for the newly exposed stone material, with perhaps artificial solvents being worse. I've also read the suggestion that you should even just use pure, clean water when you use stones, and not harsh tap water for this reason. Makes some sense. 

I have no idea if these things matter, but can understand the reasoning. On the other hand, there's the convenience and cost involved in buying sealing materials, and we don't know that traditional/natural is necessarily the best. Maybe aritifical is fine.

Myself, as these are traditional tools and interesting for that reason, I'd prefer more traditional methods, just as I prefer the naturals over synthetics.


----------



## Andrey V

I think, that the non- toxic materials are just better, because they are non toxic. Urushi can ( and often does) cause the heavy allergic reaction. The shellacs does not ( or , at least , the risk is low)
The urushi provides nothing more ( for a Jnat, not for decorative items) then the polymerized coating, which protects the stone from humidity and helps to glue it as well , it comes into cracks reinforcing the surface etc, so it should be possible to find the modern non toxic " Ersatz" for it.


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> Andrey, could you share a link please? I'll get the stone i brought from Asteger soon and i might want to laquer it as well. I thought shellac and cashew were different ones. What i'm looking for is a clear laquer, so i'll still see the stone



Sure, sorry, cashew and shellac are different ! I was looking at those ( reading/ discussing the possible order etc), so , you know, as after Freud, what you are thinking about... sorry again. The shellac should be more affordable. Need to seal my Takashima soonest


----------



## TaJ

I see, ok. Well, i am interested with what you all come up with. Which of the laquers we talk about are clear, meaning translucent?


----------



## banjo1071

Hi there¨
I am almost certain, that this stone ist rubbish, but maybe its not. Can someone more knowlegable than me enlighten me?

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/m47Jq6vihKzJBJ8MOfMq2dMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=email

Thank you so much
Benjamin


----------



## Asteger

banjo1071 said:


> Hi there I am almost certain, that this stone ist rubbish, but maybe its not....



Hi B - I've bought a couple stones that are similar to this, but not enough to really research them that much. I've been more of a med-stone person of late, anyway. Vinster has bought some like this and maybe he could also weigh in with a thought. Maxim sells similar stones as Nakayama Maruichi I think, but I don't think you could ask him as obviously this isn't one of his.

It's an older finishing stone. I'm not going to make out all the kanji right now, but can look again tomorrow if you like as I like to solve these things. The stamps are saying it's a Kyoto toishi, good quality, honyama and a layered/slate stone, and so a finisher. I'd assume a tomae. There are stones like this around and I'm not sure how old they are, but they sell anywhere from about Y15,000 up to really high prices, depending. Not sure if people would buy these for tools or razors or knives in previous decades, but you can expect it to be harder or hard and a finisher. I think in the old days, and sometimes still now, it was normal to stamp stones a lot with these guarantees and affix stickers identifying the seller which, like the certified Sakai craftsmanship stickers on some knives, owners are reluctant to remove, or at least it seems important that they photograph stones for sale like this. It'd be described as 'vintage' no doubt and, oh, it's small in the top photo but I think I may see the Shoubu kanji on the stone which would give its specific origin if correct. I'm sure it's a good quality stone, but its value would depend on the price and what you want to use it for. PM me the listing link and I can take a closer look if you don't want to list it publicly.


----------



## banjo1071

Thanks for the more than excelent info. The auction is already finished, I payed around 40$ (+shipping)....More info would be dearly appreciated, though


Thanks a lot again

Benjamin


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> I see, ok. Well, i am interested with what you all come up with. Which of the laquers we talk about are clear, meaning translucent?



Actually both. Urushi ( is clear, but not white, rare, hard to find, hard to work with, high allergic risk), the shellacks are clear as well, depends on which type of flakes you take ( from almost white and light amber to dark brown). We need the de-waxed version, is more water- resistant. Dissolved in pure spiritus. 1/3- standard proportion. No risk, easy to get, good value for money


----------



## TaJ

Aye, thanks for the info. It would seem that shellac is a practical choice. I would use Urushi if i could get it and would really know how to use it. I guess the risk for allergic-like reactions is only there when working with it, as opposed to when it's dried out?


----------



## Asteger

TaJ said:


> I would use Urushi if i could get it and would really know how to use it. I guess the risk for allergic-like reactions is only there when working with it, as opposed to when it's dried out?



Yes, as you know I have some Urushi (in Japan, haven't picked it up yet) and haven't actually used it, but I hear the same thing - allergic when you work with it. Myself, growing up I didn't have reactions to plants and things when rummaging in fields and forests, compared to others, and so I wasn't worried about having a reaction from urushi.

Cashew lacquer, which I think you can't ship internationally by air (and so is also hard to get), I think doesn't have allergic properties. But who knows!


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> Aye, thanks for the info. It would seem that shellac is a practical choice. I would use Urushi if i could get it and would really know how to use it. I guess the risk for allergic-like reactions is only there when working with it, as opposed to when it's dried out?


Yeh, no problems when dry, it becomes one of the most beautiful finishes in the world.
Just to tell you one story: ones standing in the botanic garden i saw this tree (Toxicodendron vernicifluum, or former, Rhus, the asiatic lacquer tree, as you see even from the latin name, is toxic) , which was not alike others behind the barrier. I asked why, is it really so dangerous?? The answer was- yes, you will burn your skin touching it- the matter is that the urushiol, which is highly allergic and toxic ( urushi - urushiol. Check the internet for some images :you will see nice bubbles on the skin etc. you can try, but who knows? This is nothing about being grown in the field/ forest or in the city( though , of course, the nature helps a lot) just the stuff is dangerous, otherwise why not to get it from the local store?? Cashew lacquer is highly flammable, that's why no one courier takes it for transportation. So the shellack( which is natural as well) can be a very good alternative to both, to get easily almost from any painter shop. Is asiatic as well, more direction India, not important, and can be prepared for you needs from the flakes by yourself. 1 part of flakes( better unwaxed, no matter which color, not important for the stone, this is not the furniture), 3 parts of pure spiritus, shake well in the covered bottle, leave to stay for 24 hours until dissolved almost completely, shaking from time to time, use it (6 to 12 months) keep away from the sun light. Apply filtered through some clear fabrics with a cotton ball inside- some lacquer inside- fold-push-the filtered out lacquer should be applied on the clear stone. Easy. Let it dry out for 24 hours. There is the possibility to get the prepared obe version, can be bought also under the name " French Varnish" or " French Lacquer"- " pure shellack ready- to-use". Like that . We need to protect the stone, nothing else . It works.


----------



## TaJ

Andrey, thank you for the good explanations. I've looked up the urushiol effects, looks nasty. Shellac looks even better now.


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> Andrey, thank you for the good explanations. I've looked up the urushiol effects, looks nasty. Shellac looks even better now.



My pleasure ! :happymug::happymug::happymug:
Tomorrow i'll get the shellack from Rustins - i'll try it out and come back with some report


----------



## TaJ

Cool. I received the Ohira Suita i got from Asteger. It's a very nice, solid peace of rock and i want to give it some laquer bling.

:excited:


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> Cool. I received the Ohira Suita i got from Asteger. It's a very nice, solid peace of rock and i want to give it some laquer bling.
> 
> :excited:


Don't forget to show it here! Glad for you, i love Ohiras, i have almost all types of them. ( Suitas, Tomae, Uchigumori ets). Great stones. Congratulations!!


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> Cool. I received the Ohira Suita i got from Asteger. It's a very nice, solid peace of rock and i want to give it some laquer bling.
> 
> :excited:



Voilà! It works very good with shellack from Rustin's. Just one layer done, looks good, tomorrow will check it with some water. It comes into the cracks as well, so no need to use the rice paper, i think. 



Extra layers will give deeper color.


----------



## Andrey V

Lacquering in progress..


----------



## Asteger

Nice. How many coats? What are the stones from L to R?

Also, I notice you've left the sticker on the aoto (2nd from left). I know it's the fashion, but I'm also tempted to rip them off. Why'd you choose to leave yours on?


----------



## Andrey V

2-3 coats. Medium color intensity. 
Reg Aoto- i do not follow this kind of fashion  - the reason why to leave the sticker is simple:
- it was on- so it's a kind of existing reinforcement, so to me it's a kind of " clever use"
- to take it off, to wash the glue off, to wait until dry again etc etc etc- i had my Shellack session and i wanted to go to the end quicker . 
So nothing about fashion, just the mix between " lazy" and " clever" . 
This time i have finished :Takashima, Aoto, Kiiro Suita Sunashi from Totoriya ( was lacquered before, but just one transparent original coat), Ohira Tomae Kan, Ohira Shiro Renge Suita( great white suita, so even after coating looks much lighter, then the others), the Gobyoyama Ikimurazaki Tomae Totoriya ( great extra-hard extra-fine finisher, like a very good Nakayama Kiita, i don't care if they have " invented" their name, their stones are awesome!!), Okudo Suita. This time is enough, i just wanted to try out the new ready-to-use shellack - i like the result, the coating is good, sure, and even nice! Have to remove some drops of the shellack from the working surface of the stones, and that's it! This is the simple process, i wouldn't come to idea to show it, but we had it in the discussion, so why not??


----------



## Asteger

It's a nice colour on with the lacquer. Wow, that Takashima is _huge!_



Andrey V said:


> So nothing about fashion, just the mix between " lazy" and " clever"



Haha, ideal combination of qualities. :groucho:


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## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> It's a nice colour on with the lacquer. Wow, that Takashima is _huge!_
> 
> Indeed, and very smooth and muddy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, ideal combination of qualities. :groucho:


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## TaJ

So you both did it. I need to run and try to fetch some shellac. :surrendar:


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## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> So you both did it. I need to run and try to fetch some shellac. :surrendar:



Yehh!! Welcome to the shellack club!!


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## dmccurtis

If anyone can't get ahold of shellac, I've had good luck with this lacquer: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,190,42942,45092&p=45092. I like that it's clear, and so preserves the colour of the stone. It's inexpensive, dries fast, and a quart goes a long way.


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## TaJ

I got the shellac, already in a ready-to-use solution. Also a bottle of overprized isopropylalcohol dubbed 'shellac solvent'. That's how you sell basic stuff for a nice profit.

So, now how to go about it. I want to remove the old laquer from the stone and put new laquer on it. I own three Atoma diamond plates, 140, 400 and 600 grit as well as different grit sand paper. The way i guess it could work is i flatten the sides of the stone with the 140 Atoma which will remove the laquer as well. If there is some laquer left in dents, i can use the sandpaper. Then i'd wash the stone with clear water (to wash out the lose particles which will have accumulated in the little (Suita) holes. Then let it dry and apply a first thin coat of laquer. Then let this dry and coat again.

Is this about right so far and how many thin coats would you suggest? Is there something like a howto already posted somewhere?

Cheers!


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> I got the shellac, already in a ready-to-use solution. Also a bottle of overprized isopropylalcohol dubbed 'shellac solvent'. That's how you sell basic stuff for a nice profit.
> 
> So, now how to go about it. I want to remove the old laquer from the stone and put new laquer on it. I own three Atoma diamond plates, 140, 400 and 600 grit as well as different grit sand paper. The way i guess it could work is i flatten the sides of the stone with the 140 Atoma which will remove the laquer as well. If there is some laquer left in dents, i can use the sandpaper. Then i'd wash the stone with clear water (to wash out the lose particles which will have accumulated in the little (Suita) holes. Then let it dry and apply a first thin coat of laquer. Then let this dry and coat again.
> 
> Is this about right so far and how many thin coats would you suggest? Is there something like a howto already posted somewhere?
> 
> Cheers!


Great! So you don't know for now which type of lacquer has your stone, right? I would say- try to use your isopropyl to see if it can dissolve your existing lacquer- just on one side. If not- then you'll have to switch to " mechanical" rather then to " chemical" process. ( not to use " harder" solvent's stuff and just to scratch it off)
I don't see any need to use the sand paper to remove all the particles from everywhere- these are the sides, the coating will be needed to protect the stone from the water, and to " glue"/ reinforce it, preventing developing of new and existing cracks. So it's definitely not a Paganini violin, though the nice finish is welcome . 
So all the best for you and show us your result!


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## TaJ

It's most likely shellac. I should have thought about trying ro remove it with the alcohol, good tip! Now, this might be a dumb question, but would i use the diamond plate with water or dry?


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## icanhaschzbrgr

TaJ said:


> It's most likely shellac. I should have thought about trying ro remove it with the alcohol, good tip! Now, this might be a dumb question, but would i use the diamond plate with water or dry?


From my limited experience with one coarse diamond plate it works well with or without water. Water could help flush away removed material but that's the only difference I noticed. 

Out of pure interest: why would you want to remove old lacquer from stone? As Andrey said: stone is not a Paganini violin, why don't just cover it with shellac as is, without using abrasive materials. It would save you some time at least and would give your stone just the same protection from water as if you first remove old lacquer.


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## Andrey V

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> From my limited experience with one coarse diamond plate it works well with or without water. Water could help flush away removed material but that's the only difference I noticed.
> 
> Out of pure interest: why would you want to remove old lacquer from stone? As Andrey said: stone is not a Paganini violin, why don't just cover it with shellac as is, without using abrasive materials. It would save you some time at least and would give your stone just the same protection from water as if you first remove old lacquer.



Agree!!! Some other idea to use: just to scratch it with the sandpaper for better contact and cover it with shellack! 
I do it with some old stones ( all my good old-stock stones come already lacquered, but often just with one simple coat). 
Additional idea to clean the surface ( maybe you are much more accurate then me, i find always some lacquer dots on the stone surface)- i use the stuff from my daughter's nail polishing arsenal - the liquid thinner for the nail lacquer ( no aceton, no other stuff, mostly alcohol pure )- it works just great! I cleaned up right now all the stones i have lately lacquered easily! But not the nail lacquer remover!!!


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## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> It's most likely shellac. I should have thought about trying ro remove it with the alcohol, good tip! Now, this might be a dumb question, but would i use the diamond plate with water or dry?



One more question: have you already thought how to clean the diamond plate after? If the base of the previous lacquer is gummy/ pitchy, that will not be that easy, i have some experience . Of course, it can be done, but i still advise just to think maybe to scratch the previous lacquer with some sandpaper for better contact and to coat it with the shellack. Of course, the choice is yours, we just exchange here some opinions!
And: even on my last picture there are 2 stones which had so e previous lacquer on! Coated in same way as described above.


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## TaJ

Thank you for all your tips. 

I tried to remove some laquer with the isopropylalcohol, did not work. Either it will take a long time to dissolve the laquer, or it was no shellac and not alcohol-based. So, back to the diamond plate idea.

I wanted to remove the old laquer because it was not pretty, did not cover everything anymore and was flaking off in some places. Just covering it with new laquer would not have made it nicer, also, because of the flaking, it would not have adhered to the stone in these places.

Because today was a nice day, i went to action outside. I chose to go with the Atoma plates and water. My goal was to remove the laquer from all four sides and mostly from the bottom and doing that, flatten the sides and smoothening them almost as much as the top. 

So i used the 140 grit plate and ground away the laquer at all four sides. The laquer did not gum up the plates (i was wondering if it would as well). Since the stone was very nicely and evenly shaped to begin with, it went quite good. Only one of the long sides was a bit uneven, so it took longer. After that ground away the scratches with the Atoma 400 and then with the Atoma 600. This being done i beveled the edges a bit. Then there was the bottom. Since that is more uneven i did not want to grind all of that off (my first thought was to make it a second working plane, but i scrapped that). So, i took a new kitchen sponge with a very coarse scrubbing side with which i scrubbed off (with water again) almost all of the laquer on the bottom.

The sides showed scratches from the diamond plates still, so i used my JNS Red Atoma and JNS 6000 to grind them off and make the sides smooth. I know, synthetic and natural stone does not mix well, but i only used it on the sides which will not be used to sharpen anyway. After that i cleaned the stone very well and let it dry for a while. Then, i used a new brush and isopropylalcohol to clean the stone again (remove grease from my hands).

So, that is where i am now, after quite some hours of hard grinding. It looks very good, about how i wanted it to be :excited:

I'll try and post some pictures soon.


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## TaJ

Here are the pictures. They don't really show the smoothness of the sides though. The forum software resized the pictures to be really small.

The difference in colour between the before and after pics is because the first were taken in sunlight and the latter with artificial light.

Before:







After:






:cool2:


----------



## Asteger

Quel changement!

Looks like you removed those Danish swarf stains on the sides, didn't you? Well done. Also, looks like you Atoma-ised the bottom. Very nice.

That one close-up photo really shows the su holes in this one.


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## TaJ

Yep, these ancient stains, which looked like they were even older, like from a Japanese owner some decades ago, are gone. The bottom just looks this way, i just scrubbed it with a harsh scrubbing sponge, no Atoma. And yes, the holes are clearly visible.

The stone is much nicer in person, these tiny pictures cant show that. The different colours with the different coloured renge and inclusions look a bit like pictures of the universe with some nebula and stars shining through. The longer you look the nicer it becomes. You begin to think it's three dimensional.

One of the next days i'll try to laquer it.


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## Asteger

TaJ said:


> Yep, these ancient stains, which looked like they were even older, like from a Japanese owner some decades ago, are gone. The bottom just looks this way, i just scrubbed it with a harsh scrubbing sponge, no Atoma. And yes, the holes are clearly visible.
> 
> The stone is much nicer in person, these tiny pictures cant show that. The different colours with the different coloured renge and inclusions look a bit like pictures of the universe with some nebula and stars shining through. The longer you look the nicer it becomes. You begin to think it's three dimensional.



Whoa, you're getting quite poetic there, Thomas. The universe seen through a single stone. :razz:

About the stains being new or old from before, the stone came stamped and so 'new'. However, of course it can happen that a stone maybe be 'old' and is re-stamped by a wholesaler, so you never know. In the end, it's about how it performs and how you like it. Glad you're happy.

Exactly what kind of harsh brush did you use to scrub? Was it metallic and did it remove the old shellac?


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## TaJ

Well, i guess this beer i've had made me put the universe in the stone 

And yes, i'm happy about the stone. I would have flattened the sides anyway i guess, since i like how that looks on another stone in this very thread. Oh and the stone works very nice, i forgot to mention. Used it once before i went to re-finish it. Used it to finish a stainless Santoku which i first sharpened with JNS 300, 800, 6000. It took a few strokes where i thought not much happens but then the swarf and some mud appeared and it polished it nicely.

The brush is Vileda Glitzi Plus: http://international.vileda.com/com/products/show/61?hotspot_id=26

The coarse scrubbing side seems to be filled with hard crystals. Yes, it did remove the old laquer in about 90% of the bottom. Where i left it on is where there are deeper indents as seen in the picture where it's still yellow/brown.


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## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> Yep, these ancient stains, which looked like they were even older, like from a Japanese owner some decades ago, are gone. The bottom just looks this way, i just scrubbed it with a harsh scrubbing sponge, no Atoma. And yes, the holes are clearly visible.
> 
> The stone is much nicer in person, these tiny pictures cant show that. The different colours with the different coloured renge and inclusions look a bit like pictures of the universe with some nebula and stars shining through. The longer you look the nicer it becomes. You begin to think it's three dimensional.
> 
> One of the next days i'll try to laquer it.


Great, and congratulations!
Very nice brick of joy! It will last a life. Such a stone in such a size is hard to come by nowadays... And it costs a fortune..a full 24 size! Great one, glad for you. lus1:
You see, the real situation can be different for you and elsewhere: your situation brought some new experience. But again, what a nice brick! The next step will be to jump off the synthetics completely !!


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## TaJ

Yes, i'd like to use more naturals. I just don't know yet what good coarser stones there are. Aoto maybe, but proven good ones and Hakka for one step coarser i guess.


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## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> Yes, i'd like to use more naturals. I just don't know yet what good coarser stones there are. Aoto maybe, but proven good ones and Hakka for one step coarser i guess.



You know, a good Black Tsushima Nagura + an Aoto ( the hard one from JNS) is a very good solution!
Not so expensive, work good, both work good, really. The Tsushima is huge! Full size, very homogen, cuts quick!
Recommended!


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## vinster

Andrey V said:


> You know, a good Black Tsushima Nagura + an Aoto ( the hard one from JNS) is a very good solution!
> Not so expensive, work good, both work good, really. The Tsushima is huge! Full size, very homogen, cuts quick!
> Recommended!



The Tsushima works alright, but if my stone is any indication, it's a fairly high grit stone. My specimen isn't particularly fast either. It might be useful for removing the scratches from a coarser stone, but you'll want to use a coarser stone for any moderate or major work. The Ikarashi is a fairly common and consistent stone that works well enough. I think Maxim described it as being in the 1000-2000 grit range. You could probably go from that straight to a hakka.


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## icanhaschzbrgr

May I ask stupid question of why would you want natural coarse stone instead of synthetic? Just because it's natural and fits nicely into your collection of naturals? 

I'm asking because I have a very pragmatic position regarding stones: they are just tools for keeping knives sharp. And from this point of view it seems quite strange to spend lots of cash on natural coarse stone that can't compete in price/effectiveness to synthetic stones.

Probably I'm missing something. For example there's a nice JNS 300 synthetic stone. What natural stone could compete with it? By competing I means it should remove steel in similar speed and should cost somewhere around 90$ (which is JNS 300 stone price at the moment).

Are there naturals that could compete with JNS 800 synthetic?

Feed me with some links please


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## Andrey V

vinster said:


> The Tsushima works alright, but if my stone is any indication, it's a fairly high grit stone. My specimen isn't particularly fast either. It might be useful for removing the scratches from a coarser stone, but you'll want to use a coarser stone for any moderate or major work. The Ikarashi is a fairly common and consistent stone that works well enough. I think Maxim described it as being in the 1000-2000 grit range. You could probably go from that straight to a hakka.



The coarser stones are needed when the knives are really dull- i have a wide range of naturals ( starting from Amakusa) and really good synthetics. Why to allow the knives to get so dull the one can need the really coarse stone?? I possess and use a good variety of really great knives, they are never that dull, and i use them a lot!
So, actually, even a good Suita is more then enough, not to mention really good hard fine grit finishers.
That's easier to keep them razor-sharp ( IMHO) then to take off a lot of metals after..


----------



## Andrey V

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> May I ask stupid question of why would you want natural coarse stone instead of synthetic? Just because it's natural and fits nicely into your collection of naturals?
> 
> I'm asking because I have a very pragmatic position regarding stones: they are just tools for keeping knives sharp. And from this point of view it seems quite strange to spend lots of cash on natural coarse stone that can't compete in price/effectiveness to synthetic stones.
> 
> Probably I'm missing something. For example there's a nice JNS 300 synthetic stone. What natural stone could compete with it? By competing I means it should remove steel in similar speed and should cost somewhere around 90$ (which is JNS 300 stone price at the moment).
> 
> Are there naturals that could compete with JNS 800 synthetic?
> 
> Feed me with some links please



Nothing is wrong here: everybody can use all what he wants to use, sure. It depends really on what is sufficient for you. The Jnat story is often more like the " holy dance around the fire", then the real need for most users. One of the best grinders would be ( IMO, again), the coarse 500 Shapton glass stone, professional edition. 
I do not understand all the coarse stones lower then 500! 280??150?? Why to buy then the good expensive knives? The synthetic whetstones are quick, if one needs just to have a sharp knife, it's more then enough. Same for higher grit stones, i mean synthetics. You just need something more delicate and different or you don't. I have used so many synthetics- i just don't like them anymore. The Jnats give completely different feelings, and the fingers get not so dirty as with all synthetics from the slurry. 
And really, i get any of my knives sharp ( from all the carbons to high speed tool steel and powdered steel knives) even on Bunsui , Aoto or Tsushima. But i sharpen them on Suitas and Nakayamas, because i never allow them to get really dull! So, if you are happy with your synthetics, is great, if you like your Jnats, is great as well! You know, is has nothing to do just with "more or less effective" ( though i am already sure, that the coarser good synthetics are more efficient), it's really about the feeling and playing( big boys- big toys). 
From this point of view a great expensive Nakayama Kiita is nothing in comparison to a bunch of synthetic whetstones, but if you arrive to feel and enjoy the good Nakayama, you'll never use any synthetic stone anymore.. It's the overconsumption, if you like. It can make you addictive.. But the men need their toys, why not? Good watches show the time not better, then a Swatch, i know it very good . But who told then the Swiss watch industry has to dissapear?? And the edge you get with a good Jnat is COMPLETELY different, i will not open the universe here, it's obvious. The question is, whether you need it or not.. To be sufficient is the happiness as well, really.


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## TaJ

Andrey, i can follow your reasoning on why to use natural stones pretty well. 

About the Tsushima, do you mean this one?
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/big-tsushima-nagura/
It says it's about 5k-8k

The Aotos are listed as about 2k-5k. How do both of these compare to a Hakka Lv 2,5?

The Ikarashi looks tempting at about 1k-2k grit. It would seem with Ikarashi, Aoto, Tsushima, Hakka and a fine finisher (like for instance my Ohira Suita) one could do all whats needed on naturals, with the exception of repair work or when you really need to remove a lot of metal fast.

Are these the best options for that or are there better stones out there, which are just not available right now?

As for why i would go all naturals, mainly because i like to have more natural stones, nice ones, but then i don't want redundancy in a way that i have, for instance, 3 naturals which basically do the same (same fineness), but none in the lower grit ranges. Also, i want every natural stone i own to be a really nice specimen.


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## vinster

TaJ said:


> About the Tsushima, do you mean this one?
> http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/big-tsushima-nagura/
> It says it's about 5k-8k
> 
> The Aotos are listed as about 2k-5k. How do both of these compare to a Hakka Lv 2,5?
> 
> The Ikarashi looks tempting at about 1k-2k grit. It would seem with Ikarashi, Aoto, Tsushima, Hakka and a fine finisher (like for instance my Ohira Suita) one could do all whats needed on naturals, with the exception of repair work or when you really need to remove a lot of metal fast.



There are lots of options out there. The challenge is that there could be a lot of variability even within the same mine. That's where having Maxim or another trusted vendor helps to test out the stones before you buy them. 

Generally speaking, a hakka is going to be finer than a tsushima. I'd go with either an aoto or tsushima, but not both (unless you're just collecting, then why not buy it all! :biggrin. I've had trouble finding good clean/pure aoto. They always seem to have some rogue particles that scratch up my single bevels.

If you're looking for jnats to make a perfect kasumi finish, then the quality of your stones is much more important. If you're mostly looking for good stones to sharpen your blade edge, it's not as big a deal, and you may not need a full progression, depending on what kind of edge you're after.


----------



## Andrey V

vinster said:


> There are lots of options out there. The challenge is that there could be a lot of variability even within the same mine. That's where having Maxim or another trusted vendor helps to test out the stones before you buy them.
> 
> Generally speaking, a hakka is going to be finer than a tsushima. I'd go with either an aoto or tsushima, but not both (unless you're just collecting, then why not buy it all! :biggrin. I've had trouble finding good clean/pure aoto. They always seem to have some rogue particles that scratch up my single bevels.
> 
> If you're looking for jnats to make a perfect kasumi finish, then the quality of your stones is much more important. If you're mostly looking for good stones to sharpen your blade edge, it's not as big a deal, and you may not need a full progression, depending on what kind of edge you're after.


Very good explanation indeed.
Reg Aoto: i have 2 stones, they look almost the same, same stickers on sides, same size, but completely different! The soft one and the hard one, the muddy one and the rocky one. The hard one comes from JNS. at the beginning i hated the stone almost- so hard and so " no response" is was. I even advised in the review to use the diamond nagura to speed it up. But now i see- it has become much quicker! I have noticed with Jnats: sometimes it takes time to " wake them up", it's funny, but i see it quite often. Tsushima is similar to a hard Aoto, but 8000 grit.... You know, TaJ, normally almost all the finisher are set with this number, like 7-8000?? so, IMHO, Tsushima is by far not that fine. You can compare both Aoto and Tsushima, Ikarashi and Bunsui or Amakusa ( though Bunsui is a little bit finer, and Amakusa coarser, then Ikarashi). You can have them all, sure, the coarser the stone is, the better the price is.The piece of Amakusa is so beautiful, and you'll get it for nothing, every good coarse synthetic stone will be more expensive. The question is why: to have or to use? I have them all( i mean Aoto, Tsushima, Bunsui, Amakusa) even in varieties, but the real difference begins in finer stones, and this is starting from 200 and up. . The Suita is also not an ultimate finisher( it is actually, but there are a lot of stones to use after Suitas, like good Nakayama etc). So to repair the knife i would advise a coarse Shapton( they are damn good), if you like, an Amakusa ( just cheep and beautiful), Bunsui/ Ikarashi- up to you, but anyhow to concentrate more on finishers. Aoto from JNS is affordable and very good. You should try it out. Aoto was alway considered as a knife finisher, actually. The stone is just the stone, dark, no beauty, but it cuts very good. The other matter, why many people say ( 3-5000 grit, ok something like this) - is simple: you push while sharpening- you have more cutting power and lower grit, you do it in more delicate way, almost with the weight if the knife, the grit number changes, because the slurry becomes finer, so it can be characterized as a finer grit. In higher finer stones the difference is even bigger! So having same stone, but using different sharpening technics you get different results, and that is crazy about the Jnats! Don't forget the Naguras, they can help a lot, especially on harder stones. Hakka and Takashima are soft, i like it sometimes, but in generally i prefer harder hones with finer structure. And i prefer not to use any nagura on Suitas, if it is not Sunashi ( a Suita without Su/ holes). So think what do you really need, and try it out! Anyhow- the most magic and sh..t. is that even same mine/ same strata/ same name stones will not provide the same performance! It's up to us to keep on " digging" trying to find " your personal best ever stones" or to stay reasonable and to be happy with the good choice you already have or you can get easily ( a mix between some Jnats and the synthetics). I keep on " digging", but i understand- it's a quite expensive hobby, the knives and the stones, that's it. At least less expensive then to collect the watches .


----------



## Andrey V

vinster said:


> The Tsushima works alright, but if my stone is any indication, it's a fairly high grit stone. My specimen isn't particularly fast either. It might be useful for removing the scratches from a coarser stone, but you'll want to use a coarser stone for any moderate or major work. The Ikarashi is a fairly common and consistent stone that works well enough. I think Maxim described it as being in the 1000-2000 grit range. You could probably go from that straight to a hakka.


Sure, an Ikarashi i coarser, i would agree , like 1000-2000 grit range. IMHO Tsushima is even finer, then Aoto, the difference isn't huge, but it is there. I noticed they cut better when the angle is smaller. I like to change the cutting edge profile to a convex , so no straight bevel setting, it that way it works good with both Aoto and Tsushima. As i said before, i try not to get the knives that dull when i do really need the coarse stone to remove a lot. The chipped edge- yes, sh..t happens , then i use my 500 grit Shapton glass stone, the coarser are just to coarse for me ..


----------



## TaJ

Thank you all for your help.

Yes, it's good and needed to have a trustworthy vendor for these stones. Even though i did not buy my Ohira Suita directly from Maksim, it is one he sold in the first place. 

So a Hakka is finer than a Tsushima, good to know. I need to re-read these posts and make notes to all of these stones to finally get a little overview 

Btw, what does Tsushima, Ikarashi and Bunsui mean? With the finishers it's the mine, the stratum and some other qualifier like renge for the inclusions, but i did not find the meaning of these names yet.


----------



## panda

Ikarashi is a coarse natural, just got one myself, raises a burr easily, when working the slurry leaves about a 2k edge, great for stainless knives. Trying to use it as a bevel setter on my carbons.


----------



## Asteger

TaJ said:


> Yes, it's good and needed to have a trustworthy vendor for these stones. Even though i did not buy my Ohira Suita directly from Maksim, it is one he sold in the first place.



Of course, there are also trustworthy fellow members you can buy from or trade with on BST. :groucho: 



TaJ said:


> So a Hakka is finer than a Tsushima, good to know. I need to re-read these posts and make notes to all of these stones to finally get a little overview .



Yes, I think a little bit finer. Or at least the Hakka slurry will break down and become finer than Tsushima, from what I remember. (Still have 1 Hakka, but sold my Tsushima.)



TaJ said:


> Btw, what does Tsushima, Ikarashi and Bunsui mean? With the finishers it's the mine, the stratum and some other qualifier like renge for the inclusions, but i did not find the meaning of these names yet.



Tsushima - a faily large island off the coast of Kyushu and halfway between Kyushu and S.Korea, scene of a resounding defeat by the Japanese on the Russian navy pre-WWI. ('Shima' means island.) Tsushima stones used to be mined on land and - very interestingly - also underwater at sea! Therefore, the stones are sometimes sold as 'from the mountain' or 'from the sea'. If not specified, perhaps assume that the seller doesn't know or that it was mined on the land, as the sea ones are supposed to be the best and might be rarer or more expensive.

Ikarashi - These were mined until the early 60's in Niigata-ken. There's a river that flows down to Sanjo in Niigata, and the mine was farther up in the mountains near the prefectural border with Fukushima. Aizu stones were mined very close to there, on the Fukushima side, and perhaps that's why they also have that blue-ish colour too.

Binsui - Isn't a mine name, but the name for the 2nd stone in the sword-polishing progression. However, they're basically white stones mined in Amakusa in Kyushu. (Amakusa's also an island.) I think they're still mined today, as there are plenty of Amakusa available and they're not expensive. There are also other kinds of stones mined at Amakusa.


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## TaJ

Very interesting info. Now i start to develop a blurry picture.

So there are many different geographical places in Japan where stones are mined from. Oftentimes the name just specifies that place, or in the case of Binsui it's implied, sometimes just the colour of the stone, not even the place (Aoto). The stones from a certain region then have similar characteristics (matter they consist of, hardness, colour, the size of abrasive particles) but there are variations.

One of these Regions is the Kyoto region where there are many mines for 'finishing stones from Kyoto', or Awasedo. Stones from that region have the mine in the name and then some other descriptive name parts like the layer (like Tomae), the colour properties (like Kiita, Renge, Shiro, Karasu and so on) and other characterisitcs like little holes (Suita). These stones sport similar sizes of abrasive particles, so the hardness influences how fine the finish will be (harder -> finer) because softer stones release particles faster whereas the harder stones enable the user to break down the particles for finer finish much more before newer particles (not broken down yet) are being released.

I got the info about Awasedo from here, Maksim posted that link in a razor forum:
http://easternsmooth.com/blog/jim-rion/2011/03/27/280-hows-it-going


----------



## Asteger

Yes, it can be interesting stuff.

I don't know if other people look at it this way, but for example when I think of J-stones I think of the apellation/denomination system in Europe, for example for such things as wines and cheeses. They're usually named according to their origin, because that's how their reputation developed, and they're also closely linked to their origin (which I think can also be interesting). However, in the case of J-stones it's too small of a business/phenomenon, I imagine, and there isn't really any clear system of guarantees and so on. Wish there were. The exceptions I can think of are Maruichi/Maruka Honyama and Asano Mikawa stones.

Sure, you can imagine the geology of Japan - edge of continental plates - and that there would be a lot going on with different conditions that would lead to the creation of these stones, along with the culture and wherewithal to mine them and develop techniques. (Still aghast how they would bother miningTsushima underwater off of an island - why?)

But, yes, there's that special focus on the Kyoto area and the 22km-long (or so) vein of rock (I forget the name) that supplies the famous stones from there. Lots of history with this. I also think what you said is generally correct. However, I think the way stones are normally sold in Japan does obscure things. It's too hard to learn about individual mines, etc, and so things are 'Honyama' and in the old days wholesalers would affix their labels and try to guaranteed quality through their reputations (today's 'vintage' stones) much like now we have our JNS, Metalmaster, etc. I think people would trust this stuff, and they would also follow the traditions regarding knives, tools or razors in their area, and use the stones others would. One thing I think we on KKF miss out on is the sense of regionalism with these, and that's interesting too. 

Aoto from Kyoto are another exception to what you said. I have no idea how far their tradition goes back, though we know that with Nakayama there is a big history in Kyoto, and maybe aoto also go back quite far. Aoto ('blue stone') come from the west side of Kyoto in the Tamba area, from several mines (Kozaki, Okabana, Aono, etc). Maybe they were called 'aoto' because they looked blue-ish in a way, and traditionally aoto definitely had that slightly blue-ish, but more grey/black look. (Sorry, but for me 'red' or 'green' aoto might be convenient but is also a confusing name to non-Japanese stone-heads trying to make sense of this.) But basically it seems that mames like 'honyama' and 'aoto' etc are used in different ways - maybe like 'Champagne' can mean real Champagne or wines from other places with bubbles, depending on who you talk to.


----------



## TaJ

Good comparison with cheese and wine. 

When you say things are 'Honyama' do you mean all stones are called that? Did not quite get it. For Aoto and other stones with great variation it would be nice to know which mine they come from, if not it's like saying it's French or even Medoc wine, but not specifying the winery.

I'm in the process of laquering my Ohira Suita. Is it normal that shellac does not get completely hard, or does it just take a long time? I can still dent it with my fingernail. Also, how many layers are advisable?


----------



## Asteger

Honyama - originally used to be just from a few mines, Nakayama and Shobudani only I think, from Atago Mountain which is right at the NW corner of Kyoto City, up behind the well-known tourist sites of the Golden Temple and Arashiyama. Perhaps then after other mines were dug in Atagoyama - Okudo, Narutaki, Ozuku - and the Honyama term extended to cover these, which is probably reasonable. However, I think the 'Honyama' name is relatively well-known in Japan, and so sellers would later use it as a convenient way to label (and sell) other stones from the Kyoto area; I've seen it used for eg for Tamba aoto or Ohira, which weren't mined from the same mountain, and so it's a confusing description. (A bit like calling another wine 'Champagne' when it isn't from the Champagne AOC.) This isn't to say that stones that aren't true Honyama are inferior, just the way the names used can be misleading. I think that 'Aoto' is another example of this, where it means different things to different people.

More on Aoto - Sometimes, yes, the individual mines are known but often they are not. For example, I've got 4 'traditional' aoto (the blue/black/grey Tamba kind) and I know 1 is from the Okabana mine, but I don't now the specific mine the others are from, though for me it would also be interesting to know. But I think that people buying these in Japan probably wouldn't care so much, so long as if they had a general sense of what they were buying, and so it wouldn't be thought important to preserve this information, at least for the majority. More important to people, I think, would be the recommendation of the seller, the label of the wholesaler, 'Honyama' etc.


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> Good comparison with cheese and wine.
> 
> When you say things are 'Honyama' do you mean all stones are called that? Did not quite get it. For Aoto and other stones with great variation it would be nice to know which mine they come from, if not it's like saying it's French or even Medoc wine, but not specifying the winery.
> 
> I'm in the process of laquering my Ohira Suita. Is it normal that shellac does not get completely hard, or does it just take a long time? I can still dent it with my fingernail. Also, how many layers are advisable?


Hi, TaJ
Reg lacquering: the shellack gets hard normally during 24 hours. I put 3-5 layers to get the completely sure result. And, what's more important, i do it just with ca 1 hour distance between the layers at max. The result- the glossy surface( i've posted the pictures here already), not GUMMY at all, transparent, nice, and protective. No smell after getting dry and hard. Prevent from direct sunlight. I have chosen the medium- colored shellack, but there is an option to choose for more intense to almost absolutely transparent one.


----------



## TaJ

I see. So, the local users don't care exactly where the stones come from as long as they are of a certain quality.
That's similar to chili peppers in South America. There, yellowish peppers are called 'yellow pepper' or Aji Amarillo, or another type Rocoto Rojo 'red pepper'. The chili-heads talk of dozens of different kinds of peppers which the local population would just call 'red pepper'. They don't care and use what they grow or buy at the market. It's us who complicate things 

The shellac on my stone is not completely hard yet. I did 3 layers by now. I think will try to do it like you Andrey with my next stone. Also, i will try different shellac. The one i used was ready to use and it says it's without wax. The fact that it's not getting completely hard makes me doubt this.


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> I see. So, the local users don't care exactly where the stones come from as long as they are of a certain quality.
> That's similar to chili peppers in South America. There, yellowish peppers are called 'yellow pepper' or Aji Amarillo, or another type Rocoto Rojo 'red pepper'. The chili-heads talk of dozens of different kinds of peppers which the local population would just call 'red pepper'. They don't care and use what they grow or buy at the market. It's us who complicate things
> 
> The shellac on my stone is not completely hard yet. I did 3 layers by now. I think will try to do it like you Andrey with my next stone. Also, i will try different shellac. The one i used was ready to use and it says it's without wax. The fact that it's not getting completely hard makes me doubt this.



Exactly! The wax inside could be responsible for it! That's why better to take the flakes or the reliable ready-to-use product. All the stones i've lacquered have a really hard coat on, and the water drops roll off easily. It helps a lot, the stone gets wet only from the sharpening side and the stone gets dry after it MUCH quicker. Enough to sprinkle or to spray some water on it- it takes as much as needed and go!
The right product is very important. I prepare my new cutting board right now, using the mix of mineral oil and beeswax (1 to4), leaving each coat for 24 hours to enter into the wood,then to rub in gently with the cotton tissue, polish the rest of, put the new layer etc. You know, it gives same result as on stones: you can use it for years without problems!


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

TaJ said:


> The shellac on my stone is not completely hard yet. I did 3 layers by now. I think will try to do it like you Andrey with my next stone. Also, i will try different shellac. The one i used was ready to use and it says it's without wax. The fact that it's not getting completely hard makes me doubt this.



Not sure why would you wan't applying more then one layer, since it's just for protection, not for the looks for some shellac based lacquers it's normal to keep some flex after drying. For example the one I've used contains silicone which gives some additional protection from scuffs and scratches. 
Here's the picture of one I used:






Unless you intentionally want to overcomplicate it, even one layer of shellac would give your stone enough protection from wet


----------



## Andrey V

Why overcomplicate ?
It works as a glue as well, it protects from humidity and it looks deeper and nicer with some extra- layers. And you know, the word " overcomplicate" for guys using Jnats...  most of us here are looking for perfection, it has nothing to do with reasonability - it's more then a hobby: it's a passion! If to look at it from this point of view, the extra-layers give you some extra- beauty. So it might work as well . Otherwise one can always take a synthetic whetstone and be happy with it- this is reasonable, no protection needed, and not overcomplicated. So let us play using these expensive toys!
BTW- i use this pure shellack- it has no silicone, only pure shellack and alcohol. I put 3-4 layers- it comes out shiny, glossy, pure beauty- i like it. And the protection is awesome.


----------



## panda

ikarashi




kyoto aoto




vintage aoto


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## Asteger

Nice to see the picts, Panda. Am I correct? ... Ikarashi from Vinster and old aoto from ChrisW?


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## panda

it is indeed vinny's old ikarashi, but the aoto was from maxim (not through his site however), the small aoto was from metalmaster.


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## vinster

panda said:


> it is indeed vinny's old ikarashi, but the aoto was from maxim (not through his site however), the small aoto was from metalmaster.



Ahah. Yes. I have the unfortunate problem of storage space for my jnats... I can't hide them from my boss for much longer...


----------



## Bill13

Looked everywhere and could only find the Rustin's available from the UK. Is it available in the US to save on shipping?


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## vinster

Bill, I've used Bulleye brand Shellac and it was pretty easy to clean and created a waterproof seal. You can pick up a tin just about anywhere for under 10 bucks.


----------



## CoqaVin

vinster do you have any finishers you would like to get rid of?


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## tchan001

My expensive karasu Jnat bought from Japan. Not sure which mine it's from but definitely collector's grade with all corners and sides in nice shape. 
Enjoy the pix.


----------



## Asteger

Whoa, that's quite a stone. Looks totally regular and clean, uniform shape, and even has flat-looking skin covering the whole bottom, just like Japanese love. Must have cost a bit! How hard and fine is it?


----------



## Andrey V

My new great quality Shobu Iromono- very fine, reasonably hard, works extremely well on high-carbons, as an ultimate finisher after good Suitas


----------



## Andrey V

And a very fine Takaoyama- very nice finisher, first of all for high quality stainless steel.
Works great on hard steels as well ( both PM and full Damascus)


----------



## tchan001

Not sure how hard or fine the stone is. Haven't had to sharpen much lately and still a beginner. But chanced upon this great stone and couldn't resist it's beauty.


----------



## Andrey V

Just to add some explanations: why use Jnats???
See- this is a Shigefusa Kuroushi, i have specially finished 1 side with very fine Wa- Powder, you see the mirror, the other side quickly done with Ohira Uchigomori( fingerstone)- do i need to explain more?? .


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> View attachment 23666
> View attachment 23667
> Just to add some explanations: why use Jnats??? See- this is a Shigefusa Kuroushi, i have specially finished 1 side with very fine Wa- Powder, you see the mirror, the other side quickly done with Ohira Uchigomori( fingerstone)- do i need to explain more?? .



Yes! No, just jokin' Good work on both, I think. Obviously you get a lot more from the knive with #2. #1 might as well be mono-steel.



Andrey V said:


> View attachment 23651
> My new great quality Shobu Iromono



Can't remember where, but I know I've seen this some place before. Nice one, AV.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Yes! No, just jokin' Good work on both, I think. Obviously you get a lot more from the knive with #2. #1 might as well be mono-steel.
> 
> 
> 
> Can't remember where, but I know I've seen this some place before. Nice one, AV.



No, Asteger!! These are 2 sides of same Shigefusa Kuroushi Petty, 1 side polished with Wa-Powder( synthetic) , the other side with Uchigomori! This is ONE knife, no monosteel, SAME!!
That's why i told- no need to discuss why to use or not to use Jnats- i wanted to show the difference, is better and easier to explain why is it so different.
This is about the stones, not about the knives.


----------



## Matus

Andrey - that is really cool example of what kind of finish different stones leave. Thanks.


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## Andrey V

And my very beloved new Ohira Suita- very fine, no toxic lines, it's so smooth and quick! I really love it. Covered with the real Urushi ( frankly speaking, i was a little bit afraid to use it-because of high allergy risk- Maxim has covered it for me while Gathering- it took 6-7 days to dry out completely!! So i'm alive . My hands were in Urushi- it took some days to clean'em. Blackish areas on the upper parts are the traces of Urushi- it came inside. But it doesn't influence the sharpening in no way, and it will disappear soonest, i just don't want to take too much of stone off. Nice hone...


----------



## Andrey V

My Ohira- it looked so originally, unlapped unfinished, with sharp corners- really nice big hone..
Of course from JNS- with the best Maksim's service as usually :&#128526;&#128077;&#128077;&#9996;&#65039;


----------



## panda

andrey you misunderstood asteger, he was agreeing with you that #2 looks much nicer.


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## Andrey V

panda said:


> andrey you misunderstood asteger, he was agreeing with you that #2 looks much nicer.



Oki doki


----------



## Asteger

Ohira looks like another winner, AV.



panda said:


> andrey you misunderstood asteger, he was agreeing with you that #2 looks much nicer.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Ohira looks like another winner, AV.
> 
> 
> Oh yehhhh!
> If you have noticed- i look for the best! This one Ohira is a real winner, so smooth, so fine, so consistent... All the lines are non-toxic, not to feel at all. I have rounded the edges and the front part( this will be rounded down even more- not to see well on pictures)- for precise works.


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> I have rounded the edges and the front part( this will be rounded down even more- not to see well on pictures)- for precise works.



I do the same with most of mine.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> I do the same with most of mine.



I like to shape my stones according to my needs. 
Atoma can create a miracle


----------



## Andrey V

My new Chu Naguras. I really like to use them. The upper one feels finer, but they are very close to each other. Cool stones


----------



## Asteger

2!!?

I like my nagura, and even I just have 1!


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> 2!!?
> 
> I like my nagura, and even I just have 1!



Even you??


----------



## Andrey V

Chu is great, i often use it even instead of any Aoto ( better together, but..)- it is so quick, really quick. I often use the combination of Kuro Nagura and Chu Nagura, as a progression, before Suitas and finer finishers.
Can be used even as bevel setter. 
As i told before - i don't really like to use really coarse stones, like Amakusa, Igarashi or Binsui, the Naguras give me better and nicer feeling at the beginning of the sharpening process. And it's really easy to win back the sharp edge after some strokes. 

So the stone is really recommended to anyone, doesn't metter, how fine would you like to have your edge. Just to use it as a coarser stone, or medium grit stone, or even last stone( for " toothy" edge)
I will sell one of two to my friend- now i should decide which one


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> So the stone is really recommended to anyone, doesn't metter, how fine would you like to have your edge. Just to use it as a coarser stone, or medium grit stone, or even last stone( for " toothy" edge) I will sell one of two to my friend- now i should decide which one



Ah-ha, now I understand why 2.

Yes, I like mine too. Good for getting rid of scratch marks, as it's supposed to be.


----------



## jklip13

Takashima and a Shobudani Iromono



Ohira Suita and an Ikenouichi Tomae


Aoto and an Odori Nagura


Okudo Suita


Hideri, Nakayama and Ohira Koppa


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

jklip, that's a pretty impressive collection of bricks!  

I've got a dumb question about small Hakka stone from JNS. I've added one of those to my order to qualify for Maxim's free shipping:




Well it arrived and now I have no idea what it is and how to use it best. Any advices are highly appreciated. I asked same question to Maxim and he promised to write some review/article when he got time (but they might take a while and I hate waiting).


----------



## Andrey V

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> jklip, that's a pretty impressive collection of bricks!
> 
> I've got a dumb question about small Hakka stone from JNS. I've added one of those to my order to qualify for Maxim's free shipping:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well it arrived and now I have no idea what it is and how to use it best. Any advices are highly appreciated. I asked same question to Maxim and he promised to write some review/article when he got time (but they might take a while and I hate waiting).


Hi,
It's an easy stone- the kind of very soft Hakka- can be used as a soft Nagura, as a rust removing stone. You can even sharpen the smaller knives. I have it as well, i use it also for special small edge/ side polishing tasks and slurry creating. To use the slurry as a soft base in combination with Uchigomori


----------



## tchan001

My big kiita (mine unknown) from Japan which I recently received. 
Not the best shapewise but great size and very hard.
No toxic inclusions either as far as I can tell.
Size is roughly 350mm X 170mm X 40mm at the maximum edges. 
Haven't tried it out on my knives yet but as I'm currently flattening it with my Atoma #140, it is taking a lot of effort so I think it is quite hard. 
The mud from the flattening is yellowish and quite fine as well. 
Once I finish flattening it, it will be an absolutely wonderful stone.


----------



## Asteger

jklip13 said:


> most of my stones ...



Holy smokes. Some nice ones there.

A couple questions: what do you know about the odori nagura? If I've come across that name, I forget. Also, how do the ikenoichi and shobu iromono perform? I'd be happy to get my hands on a good shobu like that - they can be pricey - and don't really know about the ikenoichi.



tchan001 said:


> My big kiita (mine unknown) from Japan which I recently received....



Could well be a good one. Don't worry about it too much if it seems to take forever to flatten, I think, as you say it's taking a while. I use an Atoma 140 too, and do it while watching tv. I think I've taken somewhere close to 2 hours for hard stones - a couple of Aizu in my case including evening out the stone so there's no tilt. Actually, many stones are not 'finished' well at all eitehr and can be improved if you want, flattening on the sides and bottom and corners too.


----------



## Andrey V

[QUOTE=Asteger;
.... Also, how do the ikenoichi and shobu iromono perform? ....
My latest Shobu Iromono,for example, performs as a God 
No, really, it'a big one, really fine and quite hard. IMHO, finess / hardness is almost perfect.
Not for stainless, but really great on high-carbons. I mean one can use it with any steel, but i preffer to specify every stone for every task and avery knife. Alors- a good Shobu is a good stuff!!


----------



## vinster

Andrey V said:


> Asteger said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... Also, how do the ikenoichi and shobu iromono perform? ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My latest Shobu Iromono,for example, performs as a God
> No, really, it'a big one, really fine and quite hard. IMHO, finess / hardness is almost perfect.
> Not for stainless, but really great on high-carbons. I mean one can use it with any steel, but i preffer to specify every stone for every task and avery knife. Alors- a good Shobu is a good stuff!!
Click to expand...



Andrey - was that the shobu from aframes? I had my eye on that one but you snatched it up. I have a similar looking shobu that I also like very much.,


----------



## Andrey V

vinster said:


> Andrey - was that the shobu from aframes? I had my eye on that one but you snatched it up. I have a similar looking shobu that I also like very much.,


Wer zu spaet kommt, den bestraft das Leben  
I was quicker, sorry  
Just to make you envy  - the stone is really OUTSTANDING! So, Vinster, if you see the similar one somewhere- just grab it , don't wait untill i do it!!  Good look!


----------



## tchan001

My three crows (karasu)
I bought a couple of little brothers from Japan in addition to the wonderful karasu I had shown earlier. 




Big Brother is 236mm × 86mm × 42mm (mine unknown) (shown earlier on this thread)
Little Brother is 225mm×80mm x 40mm (Takashima Myokakudani &#39640;&#23798;&#22937;&#35226;&#35895
Littlest Brother is 203mm X 78mm x 22mm (mine unknown)


----------



## Andrey V

tchan001 said:


> My three crows (karasu)
> I bought a couple of little brothers from Japan in addition to the wonderful karasu I had shown earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Brother is 236mm × 86mm × 42mm (mine unknown) (shown earlier on this thread)
> Little Brother is 225mm×80mm x 40mm (Takashima Myokakudani &#39640;&#23798;&#22937;&#35226;&#35895
> Littlest Brother is 203mm X 78mm x 22mm (mine unknown)


Very nice crows!
Should be pretty hard as all Karasu stones- but the biggest is really nice! If they don't scratch the blade- you can mirror- polish the knives. The Big and the Medium seem to be fine-grit gard Karasu, the small seems to be the hardest- but sometimes the way they look differs from what they are.. Congrats!!


----------



## Asteger

vinster said:


> Andrey - was that the shobu from aframes? I had my eye on that one but you snatched it up. I have a similar looking shobu that I also like very much.,





Andrey V said:


> Wer zu spaet kommt, den bestraft das Leben  I was quicker, sorry  Just to make you envy  - the stone is really OUTSTANDING! So, Vinster, if you see the similar one somewhere- just grab it , don't wait untill i do it!!  Good look!



Vinh, not sure if we talked about this one or not, but I'd noticed it myself. 

Someone has to stop the Russian. He gets everything! :surrendar:


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Vinh, not sure if we talked about this one or not, but I'd noticed it myself.
> 
> Someone has to stop the Russian. He gets everything! :surrendar:



I heard it already somewhere...
Yeh, it's strange, but Canadians say it often - why??



Meanwhile i've got a VERY VERY nice Mikawa Shiro Nagura in a big size in a great quality and a nice piece of great Koma- so , Asteger, you have the reason to continue  !
If you plus 2 latest Kato ( Rare Damascus and Kikuryu)- the picture will be complete


----------



## Asteger

The Mikawa looks nice - Aframes, obviously! But wait, you already have at least 2.

And me buy 2 more Kato? Good heavens! Sorry, Andrey, I can't keep up. Instead, I will have to find an evil plan to slow you down!

Oh and, tchan, nice looking karasu. Wow, you like your karasu


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Asteger said:


> And me buy 2 more Kato? Good heavens! Sorry, Andrey, I can't keep up. Instead, I will have to find an evil plan to slow you down!


Don't you remember that Andrey is building a house out of jnats? Because it's handy when you can use any part of wall or floor for sharpening. And when you feel too lazy to sharpen, just buy new Kato or Shige :knife:


----------



## Asteger

A house? I thought it would be a Petersburg palace!


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Asteger said:


> A house? I thought it would be a Petersburg palace!


Saint-Petersburg is more Europe oriented so he would need to build house out of Belgium Coticule if he were to live here. And in Moscow they don't care much about style, so you could build a house out of anything be it jnats or gold, or diamonds/


----------



## Andrey V

Oh boys...
1. Talking about no taste- should i comment it??? Just look at the greatest artists, ballet, composers, writers etc..
2. Reg Tennen Toishi House- 
- yeh, and the bigger bricks are always better
- i'm in touch with Maurice reg Coticule and all his other stuff. Almost done . 
3. Yesss- Takeshi from Aframes. But: this is the other stone, much finer then Chu- so, it has sense to have it. Not delivered yet, that's why i used his photos. 
As i told already before- IMHO different stones work in a different way on different steels- the progression is even more complicated. I have over 50 high- end knives, so i need equal stone progression options. And you guys are free to do or not to do the same! To understand the difference- you have to test a lot, so why not to do it?? &#128526;&#128526;&#128526;&#128540;&#128077;


----------



## Andrey V

Just to worm you up, Asteger: just bought the other great Ohira Renge Suita 
The photo shows the part of the stone, of course, it's a big one again. 


It's so nice ! 
My Tennen Toishi House grows up 
Donc, ça marche!


----------



## skiajl6297

Just ordered one of the Blue Aotos from Maxim - looking forward to playing with this. Au Naturale setup should now be complete for progression from start to finish for razors and knives.

Ikarashi (cut bevel on straights, good toothy edge on knives)
Blue Aoto (prepolish on straights, finisher on knives, possibly with nagura to tweak)
Takashima (prepolish on straights, high grit finish on knives)
Nagura (Asano progression for razors, tomo for finishing razors) 
Ozuku Asagi (finisher on razor)


----------



## Asteger

skiajl6297 said:


> Au Naturale setup should now be complete for progression from start to finish for razors and knives.
> Ikarashi (cut bevel on straights, good toothy edge on knives)
> Blue Aoto (prepolish on straights, finisher on knives, possibly with nagura to tweak)
> Takashima (prepolish on straights, high grit finish on knives)
> Nagura (Asano progression for razors, tomo for finishing razors)
> Ozuku Asagi (finisher on razor)



Looks good to me. For the nagura, you have an Asano set and a 'tomo' too? Very flexible, and I'm not sure why people don't use them more; you can get a lot more range out of your stones, and it's just as fun to mess with them as with the full-sized stones.



Andrey V said:


> Just to worm you up, Asteger: just bought the other great Ohira Renge Suita  The photo shows the part of the stone, of course, it's a big one again. It's so nice ! My Tennen Toishi House grows up  Donc, ça marche!



Andrey, if that is your real name, I'm starting to believe that there are more than one of you. How else could one man have so much? Surely, there are several of you. Andrey is, after all, a common name in Russia, no?

Nice renge on that suita, by the way.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Looks good to me. For the nagura, you have an Asano set and a 'tomo' too? Very flexible, and I'm not sure why people don't use them more; you can get a lot more range out of your stones, and it's just as fun to mess with them as with the full-sized stones.
> 
> 
> 
> Andrey, if that is your real name, I'm starting to believe that there are more than one of you. How else could one man have so much? Surely, there are several of you. Andrey is, after all, a common name in Russia, no?
> 
> Nice renge on that suita, by the way.



That's me, and i am alone. I even don't want to hide my name or nationality, why to play with this stuff?? 
Yessss, it's my stuff, yess, i keep on selecting my stuff, my greatest knives, my great stones from all over the world. And yesss, that's true, i'm joking here, i don't show all my stuff , just some running projects 
And you know- i use them all, i play a lot with the steels and stones, looking for the perfect " marriage"
Yes, i have some ideas how different stones perform on different steels, and yes, this is only one of my hobbies. 
Do you think, the system would allow to register the other " Andrey V"??? 
And you see same stones visiting my Facebook page and sharing your ideas with me there 
You saw my latest Okudo Suita and a big Mikawa Shiro Nagura + Koma, along with this Ohira Renge Suita it's the " catch" of this week ( beside great knives)


----------



## daveb

Andrey V said:


> my greatest knives,......



Wait, you have knives too? :angel2:


----------



## CoqaVin

Hey JNat lovers LOL (Andrey, Vinster, Asteger ETC) what do you guys think of this stone for a finisher?

http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/509


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> Hey JNat lovers LOL (Andrey, Vinster, Asteger ETC) what do you guys think of this stone for a finisher?
> 
> http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/509



Hi, CoqaVin,
I know this stone, Takeshi has it since .... 
It is not so interesting for me, otherwise i would buy it 
Why:
- too hard ( though i really like fine hard stones, but this time it is a Mizu Asagi, good for razor, but hard for kitchen knives- can scratch the blade and can be used for a fine micro bevel as well, but... The result can not be same as expected from a good Nakayama
- too small ( the bigger size is just better for a kitchen knife)
- too " light weight"- though with this size it should be just a little bit heavier, why the bigger stones are better- stability !
But 2 last arguments can be ignored as well, if you ignore the first one


----------



## Andrey V

daveb said:


> Wait, you have knives too? :angel2:



Sure, Dave!!
A lot ( if 50+ is a right quantity to be determined as "a lot") 
Selected handmade knives, really jewels


----------



## Andrey V

Andrey V said:


> Sure, Dave!!
> A lot ( if 50+ is a right quantity to be determined as "a lot")
> Selected handmade knives, really jewels




Just sharpened " from zero to hero" Kato Damascus: after etching there was no edge..
It was same dull from every side . But:
- Amakusa-Binsui- Ebitsu- Black Tsushima-Mikawa Chu Nagura- Nagura progression on Chu ( one by one Tomo on Chu-Botan-Tenjo-Mejiro-Koma) -Ohira Uchigumori Whetstone- Ohira Suita- Shobu Iromono- Nakayama Kiita- Nakayama ( more hard)- Aiwatani- 3-4 light strokes on Kanayama - i haven't managed to put the video here  - but you can believe: the knife shaves the hairs, cuts the paper towel ( free slow cut ), tomato slices etc etc etc... I've done the full progression carefully, selecting the stones with a small step up from coarse to extremely fine. Real sword as a result . Kato Damascus is a very sturdy hard knife. It deserves the equal edge !


----------



## CoqaVin

wow thats quite the progression, all I need is a good finisher after the vintage blue aoto suggestions?


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> wow thats quite the progression, all I need is a good finisher after the vintage blue aoto suggestions?



I told- i gave some love to my new Kato 
Of course i could skip many stones , but...
A finisher after Aoto could be any finisher- it depends ( IMHO) which one steel do you mean
I really think that there are no common rules: i see on my knives- different finishers work differently on different steels. Shige likes medium soft hones, Kato- much harder hones, stainless- completely different. aogami- it's own stones, shirogami- same story, PM steels- again other topic
So please specify your demand


----------



## CoqaVin

Shirogami and Stainless


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> aogami- it's own stones, shirogami- same story,



Hi Andrey, I agree with the other parts but what do you mean here? Isn't clear; 'own' stones and 'same' story?


----------



## Asteger

CoqaVin said:


> Hey JNat lovers LOL (Andrey, Vinster, Asteger ETC) what do you guys think of this stone for a finisher?
> 
> http://www.metalmaster-ww.com/product/509



CV, that kind of stone's meant for razors. It's small (although you can certainly use small stones to sharpen knives) but thin, and so is more likely to break under the pressure of a knife as opposed to a razor, unless you mount it - but still. It's hard and fine so might leave a nice mirror finish on the hagane, or you could micro-bev with it, but it's too fine too use on its own in general unless you used it as a base in conjunction with various nagura, and you wouldn't need such a fine edge anyway. Anyway, I see it's sold now.


----------



## CoqaVin

did not realize it was so small and hard, what would be a good finisher after the vinatage blue aoto Asteger?


----------



## Asteger

CoqaVin said:


> did not realize it was so small and hard, what would be a good finisher after the vinatage blue aoto Asteger?



As Andrey said, there are many. IMO, and another user like Panda would also agree, you don't really need to go beyond a good aoto. Harder aoto might be at around 4-5k-ish, but at any rate any natural stone will give you a wider range of finishes depending how you work with the slurry, and so you can get them finer with more time. Lots of people seem happy with a 5k finish with synthetics, and so you can stop with a good aoto too.

But, yes, if you want a finer edge and a slicker look to the finish, by all means look for a finer stone. As a rule, while coarse and medium naturals come from various places throughout Japan, the fine finishers come from Kyoto. The names you see pop up here all the time tend to be these, though I personally have way more medium naturals, such as aoto. The fine finishers are also the expensive ones, due to demand. 

As an example, I like my Takashima (look at JNS or Aframes). $2-300 so not way expensive like others. Not super fast, but feels good and it releases enough slurry that it's flexible and it's easier to get a uniform finish on the 2nd-bevel. I found it was quite similar to my more expensive Hakka, and so I ended up selling the Hakka.

That's just an example, though. As Andrey also said, the stones will react differently with different steels. There a lots of options - good stones, but the really excellent ones are rare and will probably cost that much more. My best one previously was a huge suita that cost nearly $1000.


----------



## CoqaVin

How do you feel about the Takashima Aswedo from JKI?


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> How do you feel about the Takashima Aswedo from JKI?



Takashima is a stone ( i confirm what Asteger told already), which is normally quite soft but quite good. Not too expensive, but nothing really special. The good Takashima stones ( like Takashima Suita) can cost a forture, but have nothing to share with regular Takashimas but the name . Some could be very hard and fine ( i have such a stone as well). So it's up to you to decide. I would suggest a good Shobu from Aframes for ca 300$ rather then Takashima. Or a Atagoyama from JNS. ( more expensive, but bigger as well). Not Atago Suita- is more expensive. Takashima ( Awasedo) is soft( like Hakka) , but.. No one soft stone can offer the edge like a harder finer finisher. IMO. . But that's me, that's my point of view.


----------



## CoqaVin

Andrey V said:


> Takashima is a stone ( i confirm what Asteger told already), which is normally quite soft but quite good. Not too expensive, but nothing really special. The good Takashima stones ( like Takashima Suita) can cost a forture, but have nothing to share with regular Takashimas but the name . Some could be very hard and fine ( i have such a stone as well). So it's up to you to decide. I would suggest a good Shobu from Aframes for ca 300$ rather then Takashima. Or a Atagoyama from JNS. ( more expensive, but bigger as well). Not Atago Suita- is more expensive. Takashima ( Awasedo) is soft( like Hakka) , but.. No one soft stone can offer the edge like a harder finer finisher. IMO. . But that's me, that's my point of view.


the shobu araski karasu?


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> the shobu araski karasu?



Too hard. Normal Shobu ( yellow )- better even one of 2 in the middle of the page. The stones ( Shobu) down the page are smaller. Though quite good as well. But those 2 are not bad at all- i was looking at them for some time. My expectations( Takeshi has confirmed them)- 4 of 5, so a good stuff for the money. Harder, then Takashima, but faster and finer as well. I personally like Shobu, but don't take grey for the knives, they are considered for razors. And, if you can- try to get Ohira- this is my real love . BTW- Aframes has Ohiras. JNS offers better bigger ones- more expensive as well, but they worth every penny.. This is the stuff you can use all your life!


----------



## panda

if you must go higher than 5k aoto (why???) get one of those small hakka's from maxim, they're the size of a wide men's wallet, plenty of surface area for kitchen knives. feedback on those are awesome, feels even better than aoto. it was too refined for my taste however. often times i only spend a short amount of time on aoto and the final edge is around 4k (5k if i double the time spent), perfect if you ask me.


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Takashima ( Awasedo) is soft( like Hakka) , but.. No one soft stone can offer the edge like a harder finer finisher. IMO. . But that's me, that's my point of view.



Agreed about these being similarly 'soft' (well, not 'soft' but not hard for sure). However, the normal Takashima and Hakka have been quite popular here, and are definitely easier to use, so a good general recommendation and I like mine too. 

Disagree on 'no one soft stone can offer the edge like a harder finer finisher' though - I've tried a couple that have been 'softer' (say Lv 3.0 on the JNS scale) but left great fine finishes. Real finds, those stones, because it's a lot easier to get the hard fine ones.



CoqaVin said:


> How do you feel about the Takashima Aswedo from JKI?



Just checked - the 'large' on is normal-sized in width and length, which is good, but at 20mm still quite thin, which is why they're sold mounted. I don't like mounting my stones so much, and so would prefer a thicker one, say, 30mm at least; 40mm is good. Personal preference, but not big price differences between the thinner and thicker ones found elsewhere.



panda said:


> if you must go higher than 5k aoto (why???) get one of those small hakka's from maxim, they're the size of a wide men's wallet, plenty of surface area for kitchen knives. feedback on those are awesome, feels even better than aoto. it was too refined for my taste however. often times i only spend a short amount of time on aoto and the final edge is around 4k (5k if i double the time spent), perfect if you ask me.



There you go, the word from a pro user. Finer finishes look great and are great to play around with, but aren't necessarily what you need in the kitchen - depending - and Panda doesn't go beyond the med stones. Stones like the normal Hakka and Takashima are not super-fine, however, so not too beyond the Panda-range if you do want finer.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Agreed about these being similarly 'soft' (well, not 'soft' but not hard for sure). However, the normal Takashima and Hakka have been quite popular here, and are definitely easier to use, so a good general recommendation and I like mine too.
> 
> *Agree- the Hakka& Takashima are easier to use- this is the right word. I have them both. In great quality. I tried out many others. They are " forgiving". The harder hones never. :scared4:To " kill" the edge on a hard hone is easier then to take the cake from a baby. Many prefer the secure way - and these both stones are really good for it.*
> 
> Disagree on 'no one soft stone can offer the edge like a harder finer finisher' though - I've tried a couple that have been 'softer' (say Lv 3.0 on the JNS scale) but left great fine finishes. Real finds, those stones, because it's a lot easier to get the hard fine ones.
> *Ok, but try the Lv.2-2,5- 3.0 has already a medium hardness, to be honest, isn't it?? :wink:And 3,5-4,5- is a perfect range for a kitchen knife*.
> 
> 
> Just checked - the 'large' on is normal-sized in width and length, which is good, but at 20mm still quite thin, which is why they're sold mounted. I don't like mounting my stones so much, and so would prefer a thicker one, say, 30mm at least; 40mm is good. Personal preference, but not big price differences between the thinner and thicker ones found elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> There you go, the word from a pro user. Finer finishes look great and are great to play around with, but aren't necessarily what you need in the kitchen - depending - and Panda doesn't go beyond the med stones. Stones like the normal Hakka and Takashima are not super-fine, however, so not too beyond the Panda-range if you do want finer.


To be clear: discussing all the numerous Jnats we do not say it's the best way for a pro- use. Inside the kitchen on a line you have to have more long lasting edge( good retention) with a good " toothy" bite rather then a super fine beautiful worked out edge with cuts like a lazer but isn't able to pass through the real heavy task. The Aoto is considered to be a finisher for the kitchen knife, so any good finisher with higher grit is welcome after it, if you really care ( i do not use the word " need" here, because we all think we need more then nessesary 
Thinking about not cheep by far knives we start to play with same not cheep stones, this is a pure " overconsumption", it has some reason, but more: " little child- small toys, bigger child- bigger toys"


----------



## CoqaVin

Andrey V said:


> To be clear: discussing all the numerous Jnats we do not say it's the best way for a pro- use. Inside the kitchen on a line you have to have more long lasting edge( good retention) with a good " toothy" bite rather then a super fine beautiful worked out edge with cuts like a lazer but isn't able to pass through the real heavy task. The Aoto is considered to be a finisher for the kitchen knife, so any good finisher with higher grit is welcome after it, if you really care ( i do not use the word " need" here, because we all think we need more then nessesary
> Thinking about not cheep by far knives we start to play with same not cheep stones, this is a pure " overconsumption", it has some reason, but more: " little child- small toys, bigger child- bigger toys"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hear ya, I am a professional, but I feel like I can go one more step up (personal preference) after the Aoto not super high maybe just 8-10k?


----------



## JDA_NC

CoqaVin said:


> I hear ya, I am a professional, but I feel like I can go one more step up (personal preference) after the Aoto not super high maybe just 8-10k?



Do you use high grit synthetic stones normally?

Because I bought my first JNat - a Hakka - for the same reasons you're looking for. I didn't like the results I had gotten with higher grit synthetics. They felt too slippery and didn't last long, and I was hoping that it'd be toothier and more durable.

It's not. It's a fun stone to use but it is still overkill, especially on poly-boards. So unless you actually like using high grit edges normally, I would say save your money and either invest in another (slightly more refined) medium grit stone or, if you don't own one, buy a nice high grit synthetic at a fraction of the price.

Naturals are fun but it's easy to fall down that rabbit hole. No matter how many expensive, beautiful stones you sharpen on in a progression, a properly thinned knife, sharpened with good technique on medium grit stones (clean, crisp edges) is always going to outperform in a professional setting. I like to play around with my natural stones but for work I always fall back on my faster, more aggressive synthetic stones. Just my two cents.


----------



## CoqaVin

no synthetic ever, only nats,


----------



## JDA_NC

I respect your preferences, but have you ever sharpened on a high grit (8-10k) stone???


----------



## CoqaVin

yes I have, but not very good ones


----------



## Asteger

JDA_NC said:


> I bought my first JNat - a Hakka - for the same reasons you're looking for. I didn't like the results I had gotten with higher grit synthetics. They felt too slippery and didn't last long, and I was hoping that it'd be toothier and more durable.
> 
> It's not. It's a fun stone to use but it is still overkill, especially on poly-boards. So unless you actually like using high grit edges normally, I would say save your money and either invest in another (slightly more refined) medium grit stone or, if you don't own one, buy a nice high grit synthetic at a fraction of the price.
> 
> Naturals are fun but it's easy to fall down that rabbit hole. No matter how many expensive, beautiful stones you sharpen on in a progression, a properly thinned knife, sharpened with good technique on medium grit stones (clean, crisp edges) is always going to outperform in a professional setting. I like to play around with my natural stones but for work I always fall back on my faster, more aggressive synthetic stones. Just my two cents.



I'd agree with a lot of what you've said here. If I were in a pro kitchen (again) I'd go for speed, and maybe the only natural I'd like to have (though would seem too luxurious in ways) would be a fast suita, depending on the knife and task. Definitely, the main thing would be to get more toothy durable edges. And yes, polyboards would be an enemy.

Not sure about the particular Hakka you used, but I've tried 3 of them and they're all different and so it's hard to generalise about one stone. It might have been that the one you got was too fine for your tastes and/or somehow didn't suit your knives. Hard to say.

About the jnat 'rabbit hole' - that can be true, as they can cost and certainly do when we don't have direct contact to Japan and buy them 2nd hand. That said, you can spend too much there too. 

The main thing with naturals is finishing stones, which are what you hear most discussion about. However, if you like to finish with lower-grit (med) stones you can use naturals too; you can even use coarse naturals. (I do all this.) Med naturals are cheaper, generally, and are still interesting and, though often not as aggressive or fast as synthetics, good ones feel better and can leave a nicer finish at med-grit, and they also don't gum up like the synths and so, in a way, can be quicker too, in addition to not requiring soaking.


----------



## JDA_NC

Asteger said:


> I'd agree with a lot of what you've said here. If I were in a pro kitchen (again) I'd go for speed, and maybe the only natural I'd like to have (though would seem too luxurious in ways) would be a fast suita, depending on the knife and task. Definitely, the main thing would be to get more toothy durable edges. And yes, polyboards would be an enemy.
> 
> Not sure about the particular Hakka you used, but I've tried 3 of them and they're all different and so it's hard to generalise about one stone. It might have been that the one you got was too fine for your tastes and/or somehow didn't suit your knives. Hard to say.
> 
> About the jnat 'rabbit hole' - that can be true, as they can cost and certainly do when we don't have direct contact to Japan and buy them 2nd hand. That said, you can spend too much there too.
> 
> The main thing with naturals is finishing stones, which are what you hear most discussion about. However, if you like to finish with lower-grit (med) stones you can use naturals too; you can even use coarse naturals. (I do all this.) Med naturals are cheaper, generally, and are still interesting and, though often not as aggressive or fast as synthetics, good ones feel better and can leave a nicer finish at med-grit, and they also don't gum up like the synths and so, in a way, can be quicker too, in addition to not requiring soaking.



Absolutely.

I'm not trying to start a synthetic vs natural argument. I understand completely why people use them and enjoy doing so.

On the same hand, I would never bring a Shig, Kato or high end custom knife to work either. It's not practical -- for me -- but that doesn't mean I don't see why people should or would own them. My main concern is speed and results. So I want something that I don't have to baby or fret about in a tight, high-volume environment. I want my focus to be on getting work done, not whether or not my knives are safe & pristine.

And money is one issue. Especially considering as a cook we make much, much less than most so our finances are tight. But the other thing is, like you said, there is so much variety in naturals that it's easy to fall into the school of thinking "well, if I had X stone, my edges are going to be much, much better". I was merely trying to warn him that a higher grit (or nicer stone) != a sharper knife. Especially in a professional setting.


----------



## JDA_NC

And it all comes down to personal preference. Some people seem to like using higher grit edges at work. It might depend on the style of cooking you're doing. For me, personally, take the JNS 6000. It's a great stone, relatively fast, wonderful feedback, and leaves a really, really nice finish (if you're concerned about that). But I still prefer the edge I get off a Rika 5k over it - and for some of my knives, even that is too refined. But everyone has different tastes and requirements.


----------



## panda

i take petty & suji and all stainless knives only to 2k (ikarashi), and for cheap knives only 600 grit


----------



## Andrey V

May i add some thought as well: a very quick and time saving stone is a Chu Nagura. There are not so many discussions reg this stone, though it's impressive! Having many great stones/ knives( and having tried out all the most common named (and not only )stones, inkl Arkansas, most EU- stones etc) -using them all the time i must say- i do really like Chu. It's very quick, IMO can be used instead of Aoto, you buy it normally as a brick, so it lasts a life. Very cost effective stone. And if i should leave 1 mid range, 1 higher grit stone- i would leave a Chu and an Ohira Suita. Both are quick and very good. Important notice- on every Jnat- you change the grit by changing pressure- this gives you such a range!!! But you know it. The cost-saving step would be to get a good Asano Nagura Set- using even your Aoto as a " board" you could get great result. Quickly. Though 1 good Suita would be great. Reg synthetics: I have 3 great 8.000 grit synthetics - they are really good, but... I don't use them. I hate the feeling .. If you should be quick- i could again advise a Shapton Glass Stone.. Is quick, but still not to compare..


----------



## Andrey V

And again- different steels require different stones. Harder steels get sharper on harder stones. Below 60 HRC you get good results on med stones and 3-3,5 Lv stones diff grit. 
So IMO it's impossible to give general advises . Stainless and carbons need different stones.. Of course , if we need better results. For just good results we can use just good synthetics or coarse/ medium Jnats. But then forget "falling through the food feeling of the blade"..


----------



## Andrey V

Mikawa Shiro Nagura- i've got it today along with a good piece of Koma. This big full size Nagura looks and feels like Koma. Anyway, it's MUCH finer then all my Chu, and if i compare it with all my Asano and others Botan, Tenjyou, Mejiro- it feels like a very high grit Nagura. Seems to be quite old. Almost a finisher, very interesting stone. 2 kg brick . Another brick in the wall... My Tennen Toishi House grows!! &#128540;&#128540;&#128077;


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Andrey, I request group shot! Hopefully you got a wide enough lens to fit all of your stones


----------



## Asteger

Andrey strikes again!

This one has aFrames written all over it.

I have tried large Asano botan and tenjo, but not mejiro or koma (or any of the others, though ban looks particularly good and impossible to get). I have 3 small koma (2 on BST now) but don't know how a big koma feels. That's really sword polishing territory, but do you have a large Asano koma too? Chez Andrey must be a palace.



icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Andrey, I request group shot! Hopefully you got a wide enough lens to fit all of your stones



I doubt it. We may need an exposé


----------



## Andrey V

I have some other hobbies as well, and a photo belongs there. But, folks, i really wanted to skip well exposed photos, because it might look like an advertising or so. That's why i use Iphone photos . 
A new Nagura comes from Takeshi/ Aframes. A stone is very "bizarre" , but quite good. And having good hard steel knives it's ok to use it. I use them on some swords as well - but this is not the topic here , right? 
That's why i love quite hard hones, i round them up forming the sharpening profile. 
I don't want to show it all, like " wow, guys, that is all my stuff" , i'm not that boy which needs to get likes- just a friendly exchange here.


----------



## Asteger

Sigh ... I guess we'll just have to wait for a photo of the completed Maison Andrey


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Sigh ... I guess we'll just have to wait for a photo of the completed Maison Andrey



&#128540;&#128540;&#128540;


----------



## Asteger

Okay - Andrey posts so many photos that I thought I should contribute one. This is of a rare Aizu, one of my fav stones and one you don't hear talked of much, though there are a few blog entries out there where people extoll their virtues. Basically, it's a hard medium stone, at the finer end of medium, and known for being fast and good with all sorts of steels, and great at getting rid of scratch marks. Really, I think for kitchen knives this is as fine as you need to - or even should - go, as it goes up to around 5k. They're described as 2k-5k, but this one is probably 4k-5k. Here it is:







I actually have 3 right now and they're all very similar, but with slightly different speeds and fineness. This is probably the finest of the 3 but it's currently SPF. The others are great too, but this one's probably the most eye-catching. I chose to sell it because it's fineness somewhat starts to overlap with other stones I have, such as Tsushima nagura, Asano Tenjo nagura, and Chu nagura, and of course I have the 2 others, including 1 that looks very similar to this one.


----------



## skiajl6297

This looks quite similar to Ikarashi! Interesting stone.


----------



## Asteger

skiajl6297 said:


> This looks quite similar to Ikarashi! Interesting stone.



Yep. A bit finer and harder and faster than Ikarashi, but they were mined not far from where Ikarashi were so not a big surprise.

Based on trying 3 stones and research, I think Aizu came in 2 general types. First, like this one, a bit bluer with patterns and those white splotches all over. And, second, whiter than the others and with finer dots, and the dots are usually greenish (but JNS recently stocked one I hadn't seen before, with fine brownish dots, the first Aizu there in ages). Of my 3 Aizu, 2 are of the bluer variety and a little finer than the other whiter one I have, so this makes me wonder if there's a generalisation to make. 

Ikarashi are of course also blue, especially when a bit wet like this Aizu was. And there's also another similar stone, the Kaisei, also mined in northern Honshu, which is blue and was used a lot in sword polishing from what I know. (... And there might still even be others. I have a 4th type, and I don't know it's origin, but it's a little different from the other 3 which makes me think it's from a completely different source.)

At any rate, these stones are also sometimes called 'aoto' because, as I like to repeat, 'ao' means blue and 'to' stone, and these do in fact fit the bill. Typical Tamba aoto are different shades of grey, and maybe even reddish, but never blue, so I don't know why they would come to be called aoto. My wild guess/theory is that stones like Aizu, Kaisei and Ikarashi are the original aoto and called that first, and then the name began to be applied to other stones around Japan like the Tamba which performed a similar role for sharpeners, even if they weren't actually blue. And now outside of Japan, of course, we even hear talk of 'red' and 'green' aoto because, again, they have a similar coarseness so it's a handy name, though probably not accurate.


----------



## Andrey V

Price?


----------



## CoqaVin

http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/takashima-myokakudani-karasu-natural-whetstone-42844284153.html how do you guys feel about this stone?


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Price?



Already SPF 



CoqaVin said:


> http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/takashima-myokakudani-karasu-natural-whetstone-42844284153.html how do you guys feel about this stone?



Could be good if you want a harder stone, but Mr Aframes (I forget his name) I think let slip and called it a 'hone' at some point which could be revealing about how he imagines it's best used.


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/takashima-myokakudani-karasu-natural-whetstone-42844284153.html how do you guys feel about this stone?


It's a very hard stone, suitable for razor or tools. I would't recommend it for the kitchen knife. Takashima is normally quite soft, similar to Hakka. This is not the case. Takeshi has a good selection of Shobu for now. Check it, they are very interesting finishers.


----------



## maxim

This do not look like any Aizu i have seen before 
It looks like however many Ikarashis i have seen 
I am 95 % it is not Aizu 
Aizu is very compact stone without those white specs like on that one 



Asteger said:


> Okay - Andrey posts so many photos that I thought I should contribute one. This is of a rare Aizu, one of my fav stones and one you don't hear talked of much, though there are a few blog entries out there where people extoll their virtues. Basically, it's a hard medium stone, at the finer end of medium, and known for being fast and good with all sorts of steels, and great at getting rid of scratch marks. Really, I think for kitchen knives this is as fine as you need to - or even should - go, as it goes up to around 5k. They're described as 2k-5k, but this one is probably 4k-5k. Here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually have 3 right now and they're all very similar, but with slightly different speeds and fineness. This is probably the finest of the 3 but it's currently SPF. The others are great too, but this one's probably the most eye-catching. I chose to sell it because it's fineness somewhat starts to overlap with other stones I have, such as Tsushima nagura, Asano Tenjo nagura, and Chu nagura, and of course I have the 2 others, including 1 that looks very similar to this one.


----------



## Asteger

maxim said:


> This do not look like any Aizu i have seen before
> It looks like however many Ikarashis i have seen
> I am 95 % it is not Aizu
> Aizu is very compact stone without those white specs like on that one



I know what you mean. I've had 2 Ikarashi, one from JNS and another identical one, for comparison. I've also had 3 Aizu for comparison; 1 of them has the finer dots on it like you describe, but it is coarser than the one in the photo above and another similar one I have, and of course the Ikarashi are coarser than any of the 3 Aizu, so I don't doubt they're Aizu stones. All 3 of them also came from the same source. 

I also have another 'mystery' stone of unknown origin which looks similar to the one in the photo above with the white dots, but which is less hard and fine and behaves like an Ikarashi, and so my guess is it is an Ikarashi. (It also has some 'bubbles' in it.) Looks the same as my 2 Aizu of this type, but quite a different stone. On the other hand, maybe it's worth remembering that Ikarashi and Aizu were both mined near each other on the Niigata/Fukushima border.

Some people might have encounted the blog of the guitar maker Tanaka Kiyoto, who must be one of the worlds great collectors, is constantly writing about stones, and who seems to own several of every stone and know everything too. If an origin is unknown, he says this too. However, as example, he tries out an Aizu (below) which is the same type as the one in my photo and the other similar one I have; ie. they look this way when drier and a bit different from the type with the finer dots. In my photo above the stone was wet still, so bluer and the dots more pronounced. Tanaka's photo: 







At any rate ... Aizu/Ikarashi, they're different but all nice to have.


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## Asteger

... And another J-blogger's (small) photo of 3 Aizu. I'm surprised by the one on the right, but have seen that colour before too.


----------



## vinster

I have a stone that looks very similar to that. I can't remember if it was an aizu or ikarashi, or sold as an "unknown" stone, but it's a very good one. Finer than the few ikarashi I've tried, yet faster cutting with really nice feedback. 

The white spots are really just cosmetic -- I can't feel them and they don't affect the finish when sharpening. 

I'll try to post some pics soon.



Asteger said:


> Okay - Andrey posts so many photos that I thought I should contribute one. This is of a rare Aizu, one of my fav stones and one you don't hear talked of much, though there are a few blog entries out there where people extoll their virtues. Basically, it's a hard medium stone, at the finer end of medium, and known for being fast and good with all sorts of steels, and great at getting rid of scratch marks. Really, I think for kitchen knives this is as fine as you need to - or even should - go, as it goes up to around 5k. They're described as 2k-5k, but this one is probably 4k-5k. Here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I actually have 3 right now and they're all very similar, but with slightly different speeds and fineness. This is probably the finest of the 3 but it's currently SPF. The others are great too, but this one's probably the most eye-catching. I chose to sell it because it's fineness somewhat starts to overlap with other stones I have, such as Tsushima nagura, Asano Tenjo nagura, and Chu nagura, and of course I have the 2 others, including 1 that looks very similar to this one.


----------



## Asteger

Vinster - I think I remember you saying you'd bought that one as an 'unknown' but figured it was Aizu and were very happy with the find. If in doubt, the 2 I've had like above are clearly finer than the Ikarashi I've tried, enough that they could be the next step up in a progression.

A couple months ago JNS had the oddest Aizu I've seen (in photos) and some lucky person got it, I guess. You'd never expect this one was Aizu:


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## maxim

Actually i did as it is dance stone as all Aizus i tried. 
I think Aizu differ from others that it dose not have those holes and it is very very dance stone. 
All i have sold anyway.

There are quite a bit of Aizus on internet but in fact they are Ikarashis or Amakusas 
I even seen in some stores in Tokyo where they sell Amakusa as Aizu  





Asteger said:


> Vinster - I think I remember you saying you'd bought that one as an 'unknown' but figured it was Aizu and were very happy with the find. If in doubt, the 2 I've had like above are clearly finer than the Ikarashi I've tried, enough that they could be the next step up in a progression.
> 
> A couple months ago JNS had the oddest Aizu I've seen (in photos) and some lucky person got it, I guess. You'd never expect this one was Aizu:


----------



## Asteger

maxim said:


> I think Aizu differ from others that it dose not have those holes and it is very very dance stone.



Yes, dense and no 'bubbles' of course.



maxim said:


> There are quite a bit of Aizus on internet but in fact they are Ikarashis or Amakusas
> I even seen in some stores in Tokyo where they sell Amakusa as Aizu



I don't think this is very common, but I know you know of Saicom and they had several a long time ago for suspiciously low prices. At any rate, we know that even experts can have difficulty ID-ing some stones. And, like the Aizu renge above, there are always variations with natural products and lots of surprises. We have to buy from good sources.

As for names, some Amakusa are also sold as Ikarashi too - enough that people get confused and think Ikarashi are from Kyushu. I don't, however, think the intention really is to deceive. It's more about convenience. For example, the JNS red and green aoto are not traditional aoto at all, but I guess were called this because people recognise the 'aoto' name and it suits them as they can be used in a similar way. Of the other types of stones called Aoto, going back in time I don't think even Kameoka & Tamba were originally called this either; I think the originals must have been blue Kaisei/Aizu/Ikarashi. 

Honyama is another unclear name.


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## panda

how do those aizu/unknown stones feel? i'm guessing it feels like an ikarashi? (which i'm not entirely thrilled with) i wonder if there is a medium finish one that is neither hard or soft but still provides good amount of mud.


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## Asteger

panda said:


> how do those aizu/unknown stones feel? i'm guessing it feels like an ikarashi? (which i'm not entirely thrilled with) i wonder if there is a medium finish one that is neither hard or soft but still provides good amount of mud.



Is the Ikarashi too hard for your tastes? You wouldn't like Aizu then.

I've got several other mediums. I can try a comparison for you if you give me a few days.


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## panda

Yes, please do, always enjoy your insights


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## Asteger

Thanks, P. As far as I know, you and I are the only people here with Natsuya (one of my favs). What do you normally use after yours? I'm wondering if you use something between it and your aoto.


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## Dardeau

I would also be interested in this, the ikarashi is good, but is definitely the weak point in my progression now. I've been kind of halfassed looking for a natsuya since fine tools ran out, and would be curious to see what else is out there.


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## panda

I go right to aoto from natsu


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## Andrey V

Some Akapins are quite good to use before or even instead of Aoto. I like it as well. It's medium-soft, quite aggressive, but not too coarse. There are a lot of crappy cheap Akapins on ebay, with cracks, inclusions, toxic lines. But if it is goid- it is good. BTW, not too expensive. I have some, will get soonest a huge one. Size does matter .


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## TaJ

Heya. In the meantime i got myself two stones. First the Aiiwatani Nashiji Kiita from Maksim. All even and yellow.
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/aiiwatani-nashiji-kiita-lv-3-5-a356/






Then today, this 'Red Aoto or Atagoyama' from Maksim as well. I could not resist these colours :surrendar:
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/red-aoto-a412/





:happymug:

Cheers!


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## Asteger

Yes, I noticed these. Good scores. You def got the best-looking red aoto, too, I'd say.


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## Andrey V

Gongrats!
I really love Aiiwatani - it's so fine, so nice.. You've got a piece of joy, man! It works so good, i use it very often. One of my favorites . Really glad for you!!
Same for Aoto- nice! They are really interesting stones. BTW- i have one as well from this bunch . 
And waiting for 3 other deliveries :
-a great Nakayama Kiita
-a huge Yaginoshima Suita from Takeshi
-a full box with good selection from Maurice with Belgian stones
Will have some time to employ myself


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## rami_m

Do these have to be from Maxim? Or are we allowed to post jnats from other sources.


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## Andrey V

rami_m said:


> Do these have to be from Maxim? Or are we allowed to post jnats from other sources.



Just check the fist message from Maksim! He told : any stones from any vendors are welcome &#128526;&#9996;&#65039;


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## TaJ

I see you're busy getting new stones too Andrey  Asteger, ya, somehow i just clicked 'buy' when i saw this nice looking stone. Just said to myself 'yes, i want something to use before my finishers, so let's get this one'.

I'm eager to use them both. The rainbow has to arrive, then both, the rainbow and the sun, have to get their lacquer.

Has someone a online source (or just the brand name) for a good shellac to share?


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## Asteger

TaJ said:


> Has someone a online source (or just the brand name) for a good shellac to share?



I think, when you were posting about your Ohira suita and re-lacquering it earlier in this thread, Andrey recommended a natural shellac from the UK. 



rami_m said:


> Do these have to be from Maxim? Or are we allowed to post jnats from other sources.



Stones discussed here have come from all over the place, Rami


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## rami_m

In that case here is my humble contribution. Vendor recommended I go a little hard as I specified this for single bevel sharpening. What are your thoughts.


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## TaJ

Thank you Asteger, i found it. http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/6921-J-Nat-Club?p=290964&viewfull=1#post290964
I think i will find an online store for this.


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## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> I see you're busy getting new stones too Andrey  Asteger, ya, somehow i just clicked 'buy' when i saw this nice looking stone. Just said to myself 'yes, i want something to use before my finishers, so let's get this one'.


I'm looking for new great stones all the time  ! This is the process not to avoid . And again- the Aiiwatani is great, i took mine because i tried it out. I took a good " Aoto" from the last bunch as well, though i have 2 others. These are , BTW, Akapins, but mined differently, old stock, the miner thought these were others, between the stratas, so the purity and softness is not as known for Akapin, MUCH better. These from JNS are really good. I tried them out before as well. Good pre-polishers. Glad for you! I ' m very selective now, having many stones, so it's enough no get just the best ! 

I'm eager to use them both. The rainbow has to arrive, then both, the rainbow and the sun, have to get their lacquer.

Has someone a online source (or just the brand name) for a good shellac to share?[/QUOTE]


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## V1P

Yes, any particular brand of shellac that you J-nat guys always use?


I see, I like, I cut.


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## Asteger

V1P said:


> Yes, any particular brand of shellac that you J-nat guys always use? I see, I like, I cut.



Look above for an example. However, there should be various possibilities wherever you are and they shouldn't cost too much. If they're natural (a good thing, we assume) it's just shellac with alcohol. However, I've read that 1) you want to make sure it's fresh (could have a manufacturing date) and, 2) it's best to buy dry shellac flakes and mix them with the right kind and amount of alcohol in order to get the best quality. Read about this on woodworking sites, if you're interested. 

I've never tried #2. As for #1 I think it's true, and if you have older stuff, or stuff that you've let stay open even if good at first, then it doesn't dry well and ends up sticking to everything. (Eg. I stack my stones on my stone shelf, and then 2 days later go to remove a couple and they're stuck together. *[email protected]!-*!) If so, then either you have to Atoma-off the old stuff and re-do, or just re-coat with fresher shellac.


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## Andrey V

My new Coticule- very nice stone in a great quality. I 've got the Belgian Blue as well- it's not so fast, but quite good on SS knives. Good with Naguras.


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## Andrey V

And a new brick for my Tennen Toishi House &#128540;&#128540;&#9996;&#65039;!
Yaginoshima Suita- not often to see.. Fine, very quick, hard- all as i love ! &#128526; 
Now waiting for Nakayama Kiita delivery.. One more Nakayama, one more Kiita.. For Nakayama wall!!


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## TaJ

I got the 'Red Aoto' now. Maksim packed it in a cool JNS branded box, nice touch. From the looks i'm a bit underwhelmed now. It does look nothing like in the pictures. It's much darker, more brown overall, yellow-ish brown in the middle and red-ish brown on the sides. Don't misunderstand, it's still a nice stone, but just not even close to what i was expecting from the pictures.


----------



## Asteger

TaJ said:


> I got the 'Red Aoto' now. From the looks i'm a bit underwhelmed now. It does look nothing like in the pictures. It's much darker, more brown overall, yellow-ish brown in the middle and red-ish brown on the sides. ... a nice stone, but just not even close to what i was expecting from the pictures.



 I just got one like that too (not from JNS). Nice red Shobu in the photos, and your typical brown Kyoto finisher in real life. Luckily, it's still a very nice stone and reddish on the sides. 

Truth is, when you're buying Kyoto-mined stones, which includes Atagoyama (ie. the red aoto) the vast majority are brown, brown, brown. So then the price jumps up if there's a bit of red, some renge, karasu or kiita - but you will pay for the appearance, even if the quality is no different. C'est la vie.


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## TaJ

I see, i guess we need to manage our expectations  Well, i'm happy with the stone and the looks now. My provious post was right after unpacking, i should have given it some more time before posting. The trick is just to let the stone stand on its own, without comparing it to the pictures. It's diverse enough in colour and has some nice details as well. Tomorrow i'll look at it in bright daylight and guess I'll be 'daylighted'


----------



## Mute-on

My red aoto just arrived too. Very nice JNS branded box with a fitted foam lining. Took barely two days from Denmark to Australia! Excellent service from Maksim, as usual 

The stone is very uniform and a perfectly regular shape. A real user, and very nice to look at, so I'm very happy :thumbsup:


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## panda

who gives a @#$%@#% how it looks, how is it in use!??


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## Andrey V

Yes, guys, the real life is different .. 
But not to forget: the sellers often use a light box, you see the white background- and it gives normally this " extra-value" effect. I had it too, even from trusted vendors. 
More direct light + pictures adjustments ( hue, saturation), you move it just a little bit, and the brown stone becomes Iromono color , grey stone with some yellowish shadows- Kiita etc. Our vendors should normally play less with the color effects..


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## maxim

hehe if we did not used daylight then all stones will be brown. I don't use any photo box thought 
For the editing i just use white balance and thats it 

Thats why i take pics of whet and dry


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## maxim

Also all that bought Red Aotos please remember to seal them before use !
I dont have any to replace if they get broken


----------



## Andrey V

maxim said:


> Also all that bought Red Aotos please remember to seal them before use !
> I dont have any to replace if they get broken



Yeah, better to glue it on the wooden base if thin, or just reinforce if thick enough. They suck water as crazy . 
But they give enough slurry and cut quite quick. I like 'em, really.


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## Andrey V

maxim said:


> hehe if we did not used daylight then all stones will be brown. I don't use any photo box thought
> For the editing i just use white balance and thats it
> 
> Thats why i take pics of whet and dry



White balance is what changes the color quite intense and converts the grey-yellow into yellow, brown into Iromono or Kiita. Please less adjustments . Better just real daylight on white paper. No sunlight. And thanks for showing in wet and dry. It helps a lot.


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## TaJ

Here are all my three stones in all of their glory, photographed as Andrey suggested, white paper in the daylight on a sunny day, but in the shadow.

From left to right:
Ohira Suita
Red Aoto (Atagoyama)
Aiiwatani Nashiji Kiita

They are all really nice to look at and of course look much better in daylight than under artificial living room light.  This is an out of camera jpg and i think it lacks punch. The saturation is a little low, especially in the reds. When i develop the raw picture in a raw processor, i change that and the pictures look better.

The latter two stones i did not use yet because they need laquer first.

Cheers!


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> Here are all my three stones in all of their glory, photographed as Andrey suggested, white paper in the daylight on a sunny day, but in the shadow.
> 
> From left to right:
> Ohira Suita
> Red Aoto (Atagoyama)
> Aiiwatani Nashiji Kiita
> 
> They are all really nice to look at and of course look much better in daylight than under artificial living room light.  This is an out of camera jpg and i think it lacks punch. The saturation is a little low, especially in the reds. When i develop the raw picture in a raw processor, i change that and the pictures look better.
> 
> The latter two stones i did not use yet because they need laquer first.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> View attachment 24513



Nice, TaJ!
Good Ohira, very nice rainbow red aoto ( i know this stone, i had a long conversation with Maksim reg last delivery, this one has some orange color when wet, right ? 
Aiiwatani is one of my favorite stones, as well as Ohira. 
BTW, i haven't lacquered my Aiiwatani Kiita, as to me, no need. It takes a very moderate amount of water while sharpening. Same for Ohira, though my Ohiras have been carefully lacquered. 
For" Aoto" the lacquering is a MUST. The stone needs the real reinforcement. 
Congrats!


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## TaJ

Yes, one end is more orange-red (in the picture on top as you can see) and also when wet, whereas the other end (bottom in the picture) is more magenta-red. How could you have a long conversation about this stone when i bought it right after the mailing list email arrived? :chin:


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## Asteger

maxim said:


> hehe if we did not used daylight then all stones will be brown. I don't use any photo box thought
> For the editing i just use white balance and thats it Thats why i take pics of whet and dry



Yes, I find the JNS photos are quite good at showing the real colours. I also like the slurry and finish photos, although I think it takes lots of experience for people to make sense of those.

Maxim, you always use that one KU knife for testing stones, at least when you take the photos. It must be one of the most famous knives around by now. What is it? I'm surprised it hasn't disappeared by now, after countless sharpenings.



panda said:


> who gives a @#$%@#% how it looks, how is it in use!??



Of course, P, but it's natural to prefer things that look a certain way.


----------



## Asteger

TaJ said:


> Yes, one end is more orange-red (in the picture on top as you can see) and also when wet, whereas the other end (bottom in the picture) is more magenta-red. How could you have a long conversation about this stone when i bought it right after the mailing list email arrived? :chin:



:groucho: Haha Excellent point. I guess some people can do this. 

All 3 stones look great, by the way. How does the Aiiwatani compare to the suita?


----------



## panda

oh i get the aesthetic preferences in most things, but stone to me is just a stone, for me it's purely a functional item. then again i'm the odd ball in that i dont use jnats for 'blade finish' effects. my knives can have ugly scratch marks all over the place and i would think nothing of it, only that it cuts the way i want it to. 

by the way, do you know if there is anything similar to ikarashi, just slightly more refined? also would be nice if it were bigger too.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> :groucho: Haha Excellent point. I guess some people can do this.


Haha: be kind, be good, be friendly - that's all! Almost . 

All 3 stones look great, by the way. How does the Aiiwatani compare to the suita?[/QUOTE]

Sorry for answering here- the question wasn't addressed to me, but.. Using the Aiiwatani for a while, may i add my two coins? My Aiiwatani is very fine and quite hard, i've chosen it from 3-4 other Aiiwatani stones, they were all good, some harder, some slower etc. Mine, though being not perfectly square, has great features. It's very fine, so i use it after Suita, not instead of. Also after Ohira Suitas, even after Okudo Suita. Same finesse ( +-) like Nakayama. Frankly speaking, i grab it more often, then any of my Nakayamas. I have one stone, which is finer and harder, offering even an ultimate edge, but this one is just great! And it wears out so slowly.. Great stone, really. I must admit i came to this conclusion only after some time, the Aiiwatani ( as many other stones) develops it's features while using it..


----------



## Andrey V

panda said:


> oh i get the aesthetic preferences in most things, but stone to me is just a stone, for me it's purely a functional item. then again i'm the odd ball in that i dont use jnats for 'blade finish' effects. my knives can have ugly scratch marks all over the place and i would think nothing of it, only that it cuts the way i want it to.
> 
> by the way, do you know if there is anything similar to ikarashi, just slightly more refined? also would be nice if it were bigger too.



Maksim's Red Aoto. It's quick, it's fine enough, maybe with a certain gap between Ikarashi and Aoto, but.. It is not that grit as " normal" Aoto, a bit rougher, but works really great. I suppose, you would like then reddish versions, not greenish ( green is harder)


----------



## Asteger

Good description of the Aiiwatani, AV. Thanks

Sorry about not getting back, Panda. But about the red aoto, I've just got (and have just tried) the one and I've kept it because I think it's one of the better RA's out there, having heard other people's experiences. However, I haven't tested it against Ikarashi for fineness (you can of course as you have one on loan). Also, I'd say that it's unsual as a natural as it's not as spash-n-go as most are, and so might not be as useful for you at work. Mine needs more water than all other stones I have do (exception: an aoto I own, and maybe an amakusa) and, though I like the slurry, it's also unusual in that it dishes a lot for a natural, probably as much as many synths do. You wouldn't want to worry about flattening at work, of course, and I think in about 2 years I've already lots at least a couple of mm off mine. However, if I recall you wanted something a bit harder than a RA anyway.


----------



## TaJ

Asteger, i did not use the Aiiwatani yet, as i want to put laquer on it (even though Andrey says it may not need it). It feels much finer from the touch than the Ohira Suita, so that corresponds with Andrey's observations. Andrey, you've asked about orange when wet. When i was taking the pictures before, i also took some when wet. The water was almost already in the stone and evaporated here. It still shows the orange hue you were talking about at the right side of the stone. Note, this picture is a bit over-saturated and blue-ish in color temperature, so the magenta-red on the left is a bit overstated and the orange-red to the right a bit less visible.




Cheers!


----------



## Andrey V

Nice stone, TaJ
I liked it as well- but can't have them all!! . 
I do not protect all my stones any more- at least some of hardest - finest finishers remain unlacquered. I mean some Okudo, Nakayama, as well as Aiiwatani or Ohira. I don't see any difference. Though all my other stones ( other Ohira Suitas, Nakayamas, Shinden etc etc etc, as well as big Naguras) have been properly lacquered. It helps a lot on softer stones, of course, and on stones with higher water absorbtion. 
Maybe i'll change my shellack - i intend to get the more " invisible" solution, to keep the natural stone color as much as possible. No technical reason for it, just pure estheticism. .


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> ... I do not protect all my stones ... It helps a lot on softer stones, of course, and on stones with higher water absorbtion. Maybe i'll change my shellack - i intend to get the more " invisible" solution, to keep the natural stone color as much as possible. No technical reason for it, just pure estheticism. .



Def, helps on the softer ones of course and the ones that take more water. But of course also with the ones with layers all over the place, like some finishers and normal aoto. Also helps practically, as it's easier to find space to dry them. (The sides/bottom) won't be drying, so you can leave them in more places.

As for colour I just use clear, or sometimes 'amber' for darker stones.

Taj - it's a nice-looking stone to me. No reason, I think, not to try it before lacquering as it won't suddenly disintegrate.  If you're worried just take it easy, then lacquer when you have time and materials. I only started lacquering recently, and never any problems before.


----------



## Andrey V

Yeah, Asteger
I do the same. 
Only one of my Ohira Suitas remains " as it is" . Only one Okudo, one Aiiwatani, 2-3 Nakayamas. The others have Urushi or shellack on it. 
The softer Jnats need of course nice protection, they take too much water ..
My stones are all over the place . It makes my wife crazy, mais c'est la vie ..
I should visit the shop to get the bleached shellack - for now i use the amber version. It's nice, but now i want to keep the natural look.


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> I should visit the shop to get the bleached shellack - for now i use the amber version. It's nice, but now i want to keep the natural look.



My 'clear' version still has some colour. I guess you could say it's 'off-white' and, actually, I doubt anything completely colourless is available anyway, and the little bit of colour it adds is still good. Also, to me stones usually look best when they're wet & good lacquering does make give them this look.

Quick photo for fun: coarse and medium stones, all lacquered


----------



## TaJ

Of course Asteger, you know that we now expect a short summay to these stones 
Me, i'd like to know more especially about the two stacked ones.

Cheers!


----------



## Asteger

TaJ said:


> Of course Asteger, you know that we now expect a short summay to these stones  Me, i'd like to know more especially about the two stacked ones.



Taj, you can't resist the pretty stones. I'm (not at all shocked) that you ask about that pair  although the 5th one on the right, if you could see the sides or if wet, is also nice.

Okay, here they are again:





As said these are all coarse or medium stones, akato or nakato. I'm not quite as bothered about finishers as many people are, so most of what I have are like these and practical for knives. L to R: unknown 'Take Tora' naka, flashy Amakusa (bottom) ara, beautiful Natsuya (top) ara, great Numata Hyotan naka, very obscure Haguro ara. 

Since we were talking about lacquer, I chose these because you can really see the bit of colour the 'clear' lacquer gives to the Taketora and Haguro, and the wet look it gives on the Amakusa and Natuya, while I used amber lacquer to dress up the white Numata.


----------



## Asteger

Whoops, typo above: should be 'arato' as I wrote after 



Asteger said:


> coarse ... akato


----------



## Andrey V

Sorry, Asteger, again a nice new Nakayama . With very nice Nashiji pattern on it. Already tried out- very fine stone. Quite hard. Very typical Nakayama, with it's typical smell and greenish slurry. Gives an ultimate edge and very noble finish. My next Nakayama, number....&#128540;&#128540;&#128077;&#9996;&#65039;


----------



## TaJ

Asteger, thank you for the info. I've never seen such stones as the stacked ones, the Amakusa and the Natsuya (these are Aratoishi ?) I think i could use one of this type as well (and a Nakato also). The not laquered side of these is to the left and not visible, right? I need to find out more about them online.

Andrey, this looks interesting. Is what's shown the flat side?

Cheers.


----------



## Asteger

TaJ said:


> Asteger, thank you for the info. I've never seen such stones as the stacked ones, the Amakusa and the Natsuya (these are Aratoishi ?) I think i could use one of this type as well (and a Nakato also). The not laquered side of these is to the left and not visible, right? I need to find out more about them online.



I don't know if you'll be able to find out much on some of these outside of here 

Amakusa common enough and there's more than one type, including the eye-catching one in my photo. They can be found for cheap in Japan in the odd hardware shop, and I didn't have high expectations for this one aside from looks but it turned out to be quite a nice stone if you find the right side to sharpen on. I think there are a couple other types, including white Amakusa; sometimes they've got these greenish stripes and can be nice, and some aren't. (I've got a good one like this, and another which is a dud.) Yes, the flashy kind like in my photo are on the coarse side and the white are medium. Whites like these can be called 'binsui' which is not a mine or place of origin, but a general name for a type of stone used in the sword progression. I've seen some of JNS's binsui with the same green stripes as mine, and so I believe JNS binsui are actually Amakusa.

Natsuya are very rare and interesting stones, one of my favs. From what I know they were last mined over 100 years ago, which is pretty special when you think of it. The only place that has sold them in the past outside of Japan is Germany's own Fine Tools, so you might check there especially as you're in the same country, even though now they're listed as 'no longer available'. Yes, I think it's more of an arato/coarse stone, but has nice slurry and gives a good range.

I don't think you would have seen 2 of the other stones, either. Off-white (hyotan) Numata like these are really good binsui-type medium stones, and there's next to no info available on the other colourful one, the Haguro, which is a nice old one to have and a decent coarse stone.

Yes, with the Natsuya & Amakusa you can't see the drier sharpening side in the photo.


----------



## Andrey V

TaJ said:


> Asteger, thank you for the info. I've never seen such stones as the stacked ones, the Amakusa and the Natsuya (these are Aratoishi ?) I think i could use one of this type as well (and a Nakato also). The not laquered side of these is to the left and not visible, right? I need to find out more about them online.
> 
> Andrey, this looks interesting. Is what's shown the flat side?
> 
> Cheers.



Sure, the flat one. The photo was taken yesterday evening in the car, so the color is reddish. In fact the stone has a typical Nakayama yellow-grayish color with Kanmaki and Nashiji, it's very fine and quite hard. But leaves an edge... And a very noble finish. 
Reg Amakusa- i have one, very similar to that one from Asteger, and a Binsui, again very close. Not really inspired of using them, they leave actually deep scratches. Agree with Asteger- it's a trick with Amakusa to find the right side. I missed the Natsuya- his is very similar to that one sold from Fine Tools GmbH ( you took it??
Was not expensive- 119, for a big brick. Amskusa costs nothing ca 40 in EU max and up to 40$ max everywhere. I got mine for 25-30$, i guess


----------



## CoqaVin

where did you get that cool looking Amakusa Asteger, I have one but it is just a regular one, nothing special, like any other one you can find around Japan? It works though, but it is not the best, still on my search for a good coarse natural, sounds like the Natsuya is just that, but are really hard to find now


----------



## Asteger

I'll let you know if I come across any, CV. This one was from a collector/contact in Japan, so I'm lucky. But, really, Amakusa stones like this look great but aren't considered to be special; they go for just a few thousand yen if you find one, though maybe some are more valued. Traditionally, there were plenty of other coarse naturals from various parts of Japan, and many might be more coveted than Amakusa, but my impression is that these days you can maybe hear or read of the other coarse/med stones, but that you can't find them anywhere for sale. Synthetics began to take over in the 50s or 60s and that was that. They're interesting, though, so if I get a chance I'll get them. As it is, I just have a few.

Natsuya - yes, they should be hard to find. What I read was that they were last mined in the 1880s, so it's pretty much a fluke if you can get one and a bit incredible too. I'll have to check mine again, but they've been classified as medium stones even if to me they've seemed coarser. (I don't worry about this, it's just that grit ranges are often discussed here). 



Andrey V said:


> Reg Amakusa- i have one, very similar to that one from Asteger, and a Binsui, again very close. Not really inspired of using them, they leave actually deep scratches. Agree with Asteger- it's a trick with Amakusa to find the right side. I missed the Natsuya- his is very similar to that one sold from Fine Tools GmbH ( you took it??
> Was not expensive- 119, for a big brick. Amskusa costs nothing ca 40 in EU max and up to 40$ max everywhere. I got mine for 25-30$, i guess



No, I didn't buy from Fine Tools, but what they had a year or two ago looked good, and 119 was a steal. As for binsui - remember binsui's a general class of stone, but if you mean white Amakusa then, like Amakusa generally, they're not going to be that well regarded and are hence economical. Also, I think I said above that they might still be mined, which will keep prices lower. I have 2 good Amukusa, and 1 crap. It's enough for me.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> I'll let you know if I come across any, CV. This one was from a collector/contact in Japan, so I'm lucky. But, really, Amakusa stones like this look great but aren't considered to be special; they go for just a few thousand yen if you find one, though maybe some are more valued. Traditionally, there were plenty of other coarse naturals from various parts of Japan, and many might be more coveted than Amakusa, but my impression is that these days you can maybe hear or read of the other coarse/med stones, but that you can't find them anywhere for sale. Synthetics began to take over in the 50s or 60s and that was that. They're interesting, though, so if I get a chance I'll get them. As it is, I just have a few.
> 
> Natsuya - yes, they should be hard to find. What I read was that they were last mined in the 1880s, so it's pretty much a fluke if you can get one and a bit incredible too. I'll have to check mine again, but they've been classified as medium stones even if to me they've seemed coarser. (I don't worry about this, it's just that grit ranges are often discussed here).
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn't buy from Fine Tools, but what they had a year or two ago looked good, and 119 was a steal. As for binsui - remember binsui's a general class of stone, but if you mean white Amakusa then, like Amakusa generally, they're not going to be that well regarded and are hence economical. Also, I think I said above that they might still be mined, which will keep prices lower. I have 2 good Amukusa, and 1 crap. It's enough for me.



Yes, i know
As already wrote here, i think in coarser stones there is less risk to use a good synthetic stone, like Shapton Glass Stone. The natural coarse Jnats leave deep scratches, why to use them for that reason? I have them ad well, but... No comparison to Shapton. I say it considering the fact i " hate" synthetic stones in general. I don't understand also why to bring a knife to the point you have to grab a really coarse stone. BTW- the japanese-messer-shop in Germany has Amakusa for 40 . They are cheep and mostly useful as a basement stone for my Tennen Toishi House .


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Yes, i know
> As already wrote here, i think in coarser stones there is less risk to use a good synthetic stone, like Shapton Glass Stone. The natural coarse Jnats leave deep scratches, why to use them for that reason? I have them ad well, but... No comparison to Shapton. I say it considering the fact i " hate" synthetic stones in general. I don't understand also why to bring a knife to the point you have to grab a really coarse stone. BTW- the japanese-messer-shop in Germany has Amakusa for 40 . They are cheep and mostly useful as a basement stone for my Tennen Toishi House .



Sorry, AndreyV - sounds like you've had bad experiences with lower grit naturals. But you can't build your home entirely out of Nakayama either. There are good ones, and more uniform than you've experienced. Don't put those Amakusa down in the basement unless they're poor quality.

As for scratch patterns, I think non-polished uniform patterns can look great as a finish on wide-bevel knives, a deba for example. 'Perfect' fine finishes can also look good, but not all the time or it becomes boring. 

Just checked - I don't see any wild Amakusa on Fine Tools, but the 'site big brother wants not to be mentioned' has something similar, though I wouldn't bother even though they're cheap.


----------



## panda

look @ that block 'o cheese!!


----------



## daveb

I like the cheese but I'm more interested in the camo one beneath it. I've always wanted to sharpen knives while sitting in a duck blind.....

Does it float?


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Sorry, AndreyV - sounds like you've had bad experiences with lower grit naturals. But you can't build your home entirely out of Nakayama either. There are good ones, and more uniform than you've experienced. Don't put those Amakusa down in the basement unless they're poor quality.
> 
> As for scratch patterns, I think non-polished uniform patterns can look great as a finish on wide-bevel knives, a deba for example. 'Perfect' fine finishes can also look good, but not all the time or it becomes boring.
> 
> Just checked - I don't see any wild Amakusa on Fine Tools, but the 'site big brother wants not to be mentioned' has something similar, though I wouldn't bother even though they're cheap.



Asteger, do you believe in your words yourself?? . Do you really think i don't have and i never tried out good quality in coarse Jnats  ?? Man, . 
I have them, i just , as told before, never allow my knives to the that dull to start sharpening from the very coarse stone. To me a Chu Nagura as a big stone is enough to start. Or Tsushima. Or Maksim's Aotos. I have one very cute coarse stone , i know it as Ebitsu, it's like Natsuya, soft and quick. But again: to use when really needed. You say- a perfect finish is boring??  he he. Should i tell you, then every different fine stone leaves different finish on different steels?? Should i tell you that there is a big difference between " to saw" tge food and " to cut" it? Many guys prefer toothy edge, but not me. I don't lije to have any juice from the product you cut- for this you need the sharp knife. 
But even if you prefer a toothy edge- an edge after Chu/Aoto is still a balance between toothy and fine. 
You know for sure, that using higher grit fine Jnats you reinforce your edge , actually without loosing too much metal. Why to mention only ultimate finish without this extremely important feature?? This is the main reason if using different fine Jnats. And again: every steel needs it's own sharpening source. You never achieve same result on same stones with different steels. This is that so-called " perfect marriage" between the stone and the steel. You know this. 
AND: between the Amakusa and Nakayama there are A LOT of great stones!! . 
And really- for rough sharpening some coarse synthetic stones ( i prefer Shapton Glas) are just better, more consistent, give clear expectable result. The difference begins from ca 1000 and up grits. Though some guys are happy with 180 as a last stone. Starting with 120 grit. Brrrrrr. 
BTW- bought yesterday another Shige Gyuto Western with rare Tamamoku handle. Will be a fancy stuff with same-wood Saya . Couldn't resist... These knives deserve some real care!


----------



## Asteger

panda said:


> look @ that block 'o cheese!!



Absolutely. Aged cheddar, I'd say.



daveb said:


> I like the cheese but I'm more interested in the camo one beneath it. I've always wanted to sharpen knives while sitting in a duck blind..... Does it float?



Dave, I haven't the foggiest what you're on about


----------



## daveb

Ger, That's not an uncommon reaction to some of my attempts at humor.


----------



## Asteger

daveb said:


> Ger, That's not an uncommon reaction to some of my attempts at humor.



It's okay. Toishi jokes are a very esoteric area.


----------



## TaJ

daveb is somehow influenced by something completely different.


----------



## riba

Just wanted to show my 2 small coticules (and a "nagura"  )

Not that popular but I do like the edge I get from them.






They are both from La Dressante" layer. The spotted one feels a bit smoother in use than the tiger one.

They're rather small, but work for me (only use them as finishers and to touch up). I really enjoy using them. 
I still have to visit the quarry Ardennes-Coticule once, they're only a 2 hour drive away...


----------



## Andrey V

riba said:


> Just wanted to show my 2 small coticules (and a "nagura"  )
> 
> Not that popular but I do like the edge I get from them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are both from La Dressante" layer. The spotted one feels a bit smoother in use than the tiger one.
> 
> They're rather small, but work for me (only use them as finishers and to touch up). I really enjoy using them.
> I still have to visit the quarry Ardennes-Coticule once, they're only a 2 hour drive away...



Congrats
I should visit Maurice as well. He is very friendly and helpful
I have all types of his stones as well. The Coticules are good, i think the clear versions are better. The strange point reg these stones is that it cuts and feels more like artificial stone rather then natural . Because of garnets- they are very hard and do not break down. It feels almost like a very fine diamond plate with sone slurry- bizarre feeling. It cuts really quick. The only one finisher i know which can be used as only 1 stone from " zero to hero". It takes sone time, but less then any Suita. On the other hand the edge stays toothy, you never gets that fine feeling as good Jnats, so , IMHO, belgian stones are great to have in the collection, but they do not over-perform Jnats. 
The retention, BTW, is like from synthetics, not Jnats. It doesn't reinforce the edge in that way.. 
But still very nice stones. Important thing: even a small stone is enough to sharpen a good knife, this is a big difference to a Jnat. And my other remark- it's the only stone which works with it's Nagura differently, than without it. Because the slurry you get does not break down ( again because of small garnets)


----------



## riba

Yeah, I didn't have the pleasure yet to experience a good jnat for kitchen knives. (I only have a shoubudani (type 100) from Maxim (for razors), which is rather hard and I am still learning to use it. Not sure I can use it for kitchen knives). A good jnat is on my wish list, but unfortunately I don't have a budget for it now 

The coticules are indeed surprisingly fast. I use them after a 1K or 3K synthetic stone and they refine the edge pretty fast. And you are right, the edge they give is pretty toothy (sometimes I strop with compounds to further refine that edge). They're great value for money IMO (I paid 40 USD for the spotted stone).


----------



## Asteger

Look cool, and definitely different compared to what I'm used to. I've never tried anyting non-Japanese like these.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Look cool, and definitely different compared to what I'm used to. I've never tried anyting non-Japanese like these.



Then ask me 
I've tried the major part of all known non- Japanese stones . 
40$ is a price!! Mine cost much more . ..
But bought directly from Maurice. And very uniform, the spots and veins influence the cutting quality of the stone a lot. So 40$ is a gift!


----------



## Andrey V

riba said:


> Yeah, I didn't have the pleasure yet to experience a good jnat for kitchen knives. (I only have a shoubudani (type 100) from Maxim (for razors), which is rather hard and I am still learning to use it. Not sure I can use it for kitchen knives). A good jnat is on my wish list, but unfortunately I don't have a budget for it now
> 
> The coticules are indeed surprisingly fast. I use them after a 1K or 3K synthetic stone and they refine the edge pretty fast. And you are right, the edge they give is pretty toothy (sometimes I strop with compounds to further refine that edge). They're great value for money IMO (I paid 40 USD for the spotted stone).



Lucky you .... 
40$ is a gift. Even though the spots and veins are not desirable for such stones. La Dressante is quite hard, better for tools and razors, but still ok for the knives. Compound's stropping is great after it, especially with white Dialux. The Jnats will surprise you! But better to try them before. Nothing is that quick as good Coticule. I'm not a fan of it, just facing the truth. 
Congrats encore!!


----------



## riba

yeah, I knew that the spots and veins aren't really desirable, but the stones were calling my name (guess you know what I mean  )... I rather like the look, appreciate that they were mined nearby and enjoy the edge I get from them  (I enjoy sharpening on them more than sharpening on my rika 5k / shapton glass 6K/8K).

Once I will try a nice Jnat, always nice to have something to look out to  (But unfortunately not this year - just ordered a heiji gyuto  )


----------



## Andrey V

riba said:


> yeah, I knew that the spots and veins aren't really desirable, but the stones were calling my name (guess you know what I mean  )... I rather like the look, appreciate that they were mined nearby and enjoy the edge I get from them  (I enjoy sharpening on them more than sharpening on my rika 5k / shapton glass 6K/8K).
> 
> Once I will try a nice Jnat, always nice to have something to look out to  (But unfortunately not this year - just ordered a heiji gyuto  )



I understand you really well, man! 
I know that feeling, believe me &#128540;&#128540;&#128540;
The most important thing is you enjoy it- no matter what somebody says. 
To share your joy : just bought one more Shigefusa Yanagi Kitaeji 300... Right after a very nice Shige Gyuto Western with Dan's handle in rare Tamamoku Japanese Cedar. We should love ourselves &#128526;&#128526;&#9996;&#65039;. 
Just finished sharpening 3 Kato ( i took my time - ca 2,5 hours to enjoy it, from coarse to damn fine, on different stones. It's so relaxing...)
Nice proper sharpening is so peaceful ... The knife could be sharpened during 5 min, but this long proper sharpening.. is something special. &#128540;&#9996;&#65039;


----------



## Andrey V

My new Atagoyama Red Nashiji - full size- just bought from JNS- great stone. Will try it out as soon as i will get it .


----------



## apathetic

This one looks beautiful! Very curious about you'll find it to be


----------



## Andrey V

apathetic said:


> This one looks beautiful! Very curious about you'll find it to be



Easy: having a trusted vendor talk to him - he is " trusted" because you trust him &#128540;&#9996;&#65039;. You should know his scale, he should know yours. Then it works.


----------



## Andrey V

My new top- quality greenish " Red Aoto" from Maksim. With nice Kanmaki, very consistent, bit harder then normally but still very soft. Full size- very nice to work with! I have 2 more bought before- this one is a real upgrade! More expensive- but really better! The other 2 Red Aotos will find new masters . Actually- already found &#128540;&#128540;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;
Thanks, Maksim!!&#128591;


----------



## riba

@ Andrey V: wow, you are going strong... ))

Do you have any advice on making a hard Shuobudani type 100 work for knife sharpening (I have Asano Tenjyou and Asano Mejiro Nagura's ) or should I accept that I bought them for razor sharpening?


----------



## Andrey V

riba said:


> @ Andrey V: wow, you are going strong... ))
> 
> Do you have any advice on making a hard Shuobudani type 100 work for knife sharpening (I have Asano Tenjyou and Asano Mejiro Nagura's ) or should I accept that I bought them for razor sharpening?



Already strong &#128540; with 45-50 great stones..&#128540;&#128540;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;
For a long time &#128526;&#9996;&#65039;. 
Reg Shobudani type 100- it's a hard razor hone, so please carefully with the knives- you can scratch it. 
BUT: using it like a " stone board" with low pressure in combination with your Naguras it will work well. I would recommend you to include coarser Botan or Chu to start, because T and M could be very similar. Koma would be great after, but great if you have it- they are hard to get, especially in great quality. 
I used it it similar way, on a hard Ohira Tomae- it works really good. This is the clever way to have the progression being limited with stones quantity. You can always extend your scale. 
Important: having hard stone board under never force sharpening. Easy, no hush- it will run automatically. Good luck! &#128591;


----------



## riba

Andrey V said:


> Just finished sharpening 3 Kato ( i took my time - ca 2,5 hours to enjoy it, from coarse to damn fine, on different stones. It's so relaxing...)
> Nice proper sharpening is so peaceful ... The knife could be sharpened during 5 min, but this long proper sharpening.. is something special. &#128540;&#9996;&#65039;


A good friend of mine is deep into photography. He told me he finds cleaning his glass (lenses) relaxing. Some people have an odd expression on their face when you tell them that you sharpen your knives to relax, hehehehe  




Andrey V said:


> Already strong &#128540; with 45-50 great stones..&#128540;&#128540;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;
> For a long time &#128526;&#9996;&#65039;.
> Reg Shobudani type 100- it's a hard razor hone, so please carefully with the knives- you can scratch it.
> BUT: using it like a " stone board" with low pressure in combination with your Naguras it will work well. I would recommend you to include coarser Botan or Chu to start, because T and M could be very similar. Koma would be great after, but great if you have it- they are hard to get, especially in great quality.
> I used it it similar way, on a hard Ohira Tomae- it works really good. This is the clever way to have the progression being limited with stones quantity. You can always extend your scale.
> Important: having hard stone board under never force sharpening. Easy, no hush- it will run automatically. Good luck! &#128591;



Hehehe, that's a proper JNAT addiction 

Thanks a lot for you advice, I'll give it a try (as soon as I manage to clear up the blade road on my blue 2 petty). And I will be on the lookout for a coarser nagura too  
(Pretty sure that last time (about 2 years ago), I was using too much pressure... Fortunately I have plenty of time to get to know this stone).


----------



## Andrey V

riba said:


> A good friend of mine is deep into photography. He told me he finds cleaning his glass (lenses) relaxing. Some people have an odd expression on their face when you tell them that you sharpen your knives to relax, hehehehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hehehe, that's a proper JNAT addiction
> 
> Thanks a lot for you advice, I'll give it a try (as soon as I manage to clear up the blade road on my blue 2 petty). And I will be on the lookout for a coarser nagura too
> (Pretty sure that last time (about 2 years ago), I was using too much pressure... Fortunately I have plenty of time to get to know this stone).



1. Don't want to de treated as nuts - don't talk about this matter to "normal" people  
If they leave happy without it- they will not be able to understand you. Only with nuts . This is the basic point conserning any "too-deep-inside-hobby"

2. You are welcome! Try it, share it ( here  , discover it - this is a crazy world


----------



## Andrey V

My newest very cool Atagoyama Suita- a new full size brick! Super consistent, very fine, very quick, makes super nice finish and leaves an ultimate edge. 
A new toy after my " beloved " greenish " Red Aoto" in full size from Maksim. Now I'm waiting for next 2 coarse Jnats: an Omura & a Black Saeki.


----------



## skiajl6297

I go to the JNS website after the newsletter comes out, look for the most unique/special/once in a lifetime item that is already sold out, and then think, I will see that in this thread. 

Please continue to post pics and more action pics of these amazing stones in action please!


----------



## Asteger

skiajl6297 said:


> I go to the JNS website after the newsletter comes out, look for the most unique/special/once in a lifetime item that is already sold out, and then think, I will see that in this thread.
> 
> Please continue to post pics and more action pics of these amazing stones in action please!



Yes, always good to see any sort of photo. I think Andrey 'Awasedo' V posts the most photos, although not always from JNS. For JNS stones, yes, I also notice what comes up, and wonder who buys 'em. Of course not all that are sold go to KKF members, but I imagine a lot do. Great to see stones from other sources too.



Andrey V said:


> Now I'm waiting for next 2 coarse Jnats: an Omura & a Black Saeki.



Sounds good; Mr Awasedo buys a course and a medium! Me, I've also wondered about Saeki. Omura, I've owned for some time and I'm a fan already.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Yes, always good to see any sort of photo. I think Andrey 'Awasedo' V posts the most photos, although not always from JNS. For JNS stones, yes, I also notice what comes up, and wonder who buys 'em. Of course not all that are sold go to KKF members, but I imagine a lot do. Great to see stones from other sources too.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds good; Mr Awasedo buys a course and a medium! Me, I've also wondered about Saeki. Omura, I've owned for some time and I'm a fan already.



Just a remark:
- do you really think i don't have coarse stones?? &#128516;&#128540;&#128540;
I told i'm not a big fan of them ( here we think equally with Maksim), i have explained many times why and what do i do instead of using really coarse stones, though i have them as well- remember, Asteger- as a basement for my Tennen Toishi House&#128540;&#128540
Anyway- next 2 stones should be knocking on my door these days . 
Have i told i've got some other great stones as well? And one more Shigefusa Kitaegi Yanagiba 300 mm . Just to play with great stones. The next step is the play with hard steels on hard hones- i like the mirror finish you get out if it . 
- in latest mediums my absolute favorite is the greenish " Red Aoto" from JNS, but i've told it already.

Reg Saeki- i've tried some Brown Saeki stones, they've been to soft to me, but the greyish Black Saeki is the other beast. Harder, more aggressive, more effective as well. So i thought i need it.


----------



## Andrey V

Voilà!
My new stones are here . 
Omura is very thursty, it " drinks water like a horse " &#128540;&#128540;
Very soft, very muddy, quite quick ( not that quick as 500 Shapton pro Glass Stone series), but: the scratch pattern isn't that rough as after Shapton ! So , i will use it. Cries out to be sealed with shellack. 
Black Saeki- as mentioned above: better then Brown Saeki, less " thursty ", takes anyway a lot of water, is harder, quite interesting stone. Very useful before Chu or Aoto. 
Good stuff! 
But my next one will be a super-ultra-mega-hyper fine Nakayama Kiita in top level. Already bought! &#128540;&#128540;&#128540; 
So sorry, Mr " Awasedo" keeps on building up it's Tennen Toishi House &#128576;&#128576;&#128576;&#128165;...


----------



## Dardeau

Good to know, I've been looking at both of those. Hopefully more black seki come available.


----------



## dream816

Does anyone know which Jnats give a "sandblasted" hazy look?

I've just gotten my takashima natural stone, medium hardness. It works wonderfully but I prefer a slightly more "sandblasted" look. Just a tad, not too much.

What do you recommend?


----------



## Andrey V

dream816 said:


> Does anyone know which Jnats give a "sandblasted" hazy look?
> 
> I've just gotten my takashima natural stone, medium hardness. It works wonderfully but I prefer a slightly more "sandblasted" look. Just a tad, not too much.
> 
> What do you recommend?



Hi!
To get the sandblasted look you need to go a step or even two down, to a coarser stone. It should be quite coarse- like Omura , Ebitsu or softer Ikarashi( ?). Omura makes it on easiest way. The coarse stone should be soft as well. But it won't be enough for the edge. ...


----------



## Andrey V

Shellack lacquering in progress!!
Needed to protect all the latest arrivals &#128526;. And some stone boxes as well &#128521;


----------



## Asteger

Oh dear! I was going to post a warning that AndreyV was in the midst of a lacquering session and photos were to be expected. But he's already struck! (Looking nice, though. )



dream816 said:


> Does anyone know which Jnats give a "sandblasted" hazy look?



You said you're using a Tsushima. You could try a softer stone, and/or use some kind of nagura for 'cushioning' slurry to help you. 

I remember the JNS 'tomonagura' as on the fine side, but soft and so that could be a good one. As for softer full-sized stones, there are several though of course they tend to be coarse or med more often than fine. The finish in the photo you posted isn't that fine; it's more of a med finish, I think. As an example, a good aoto-ish stone should be able to do something like that. 



Andrey V said:


> quite coarse- like ... Ebitsu



Ebitsu? Huh? I'm worried AV is inventing new stones :scratchhead:



Andrey V said:


> Omura is very thursty, it " drinks water like a horse " &#55357;&#56860;&#55357;&#56860;
> Very soft, very muddy, quite quick ( not that quick as 500 Shapton pro Glass Stone series), but: the scratch pattern isn't that rough as after Shapton ! So , i will use it. Cries out to be sealed with shellack.
> .



I didn't find that with mine at all. I thought it had a good balance: enough slurry and stays wet enough, and doesn't guzzle water, which I liked about it a lot. 

However, to be honest I've had 2 Omura and I'm thinking of my first one, which I've since sold. My 2nd I've barely used yet, but it's from the same original producer as those that Maxim has started to sell and the one you have. I'm due to pull it out again, as I have a couple of chipped blades that need some action.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Oh dear! I was going to post a warning that AndreyV was in the midst of a lacquering session and photos were to be expected. But he's already struck! (Looking nice, though. )
> 
> 
> 
> You said you're using a Tsushima. You could try a softer stone, and/or use some kind of nagura for 'cushioning' slurry to help you.
> 
> I remember the JNS 'tomonagura' as on the fine side, but soft and so that could be a good one. As for softer full-sized stones, there are several though of course they tend to be coarse or med more often than fine. The finish in the photo you posted isn't that fine; it's more of a med finish, I think. As an example, a good aoto-ish stone should be able to do something like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Ebitsu? Huh? I'm worried AV is inventing new stones :scratchhead:



Sorry, guys . I wasn't sure reg it's name- it was ..bizarre.. At least i've got it under this name.. It looks like Natsuya, nice yellow with white and black/ grey dots, but softer. It's soft like Omura, but a bit finer. 
I was sure there something wrong with the name , but., i should better say " my Ebitsu", like " Red Aoto". 
Kinda coarse stone . 
BTW, if the Aoto is a bit hard, the finish won't be that " sandblasted". The stone should be not so fine and very soft anyhow. The even finish could be achieved on Honyaki only, otherwise you'll get the descent contrast between Jigane/ Hagane. That's clear.


----------



## Andrey V

I should take a picture of this f..g Ebitsu, maybe it is just the variation if Natsuya ..&#128527;
Anyway, it's a soft coarse stone which works as a workhorse !!


----------



## Asteger

Yeah, sounds like a Natsuya indeed, and a good recommendation. However, I'm curious if it's something different. Post a link or some kanji for the name, if you can.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Yeah, sounds like a Natsuya indeed, and a good recommendation. However, I'm curious if it's something different. Post a link or some kanji for the name, if you can.



He he, no Kanji, no link. I couldn't find nothing with this foolish name. 
From all i know/ have seen/tried it the nearest picture of Natsuya indeed. Anyhow, nice coarse stone. ( surprised to hear it from me&#128540;&#128540;?)


----------



## Mute-on

Andrey V said:


> View attachment 24829
> 
> Shellack lacquering in progress!!
> Needed to protect all the latest arrivals &#128526;. And some stone boxes as well &#128521;



Andrey,

What is your recipe for shellac, if you make it yourself from flakes and alcohol? I am curious as I can get the ingredients, but not a pre-made mixture 

Many thanks :thumbsup:

Greetings from Oz (Shig capital of the Southern Hemisphere


----------



## dream816

Thanks for all the replies.

I think I will do another session using Takashima and see if the results remain the same. Anyway, I'm sold on Jnats after using my first one and I can see why people like it so much and why synthetic stones can't fill the void.


----------



## Andrey V

Mute-on said:


> Andrey,
> 
> What is your recipe for shellac, if you make it yourself from flakes and alcohol? I am curious as I can get the ingredients, but not a pre-made mixture
> 
> Many thanks :thumbsup:
> 
> Greetings from Oz (Shig capital of the Southern Hemisphere



Greeting to you as well &#128526;&#9996;&#65039;
Normally 30% flakes/70% alcohol (ethanol)- don't drink it while mixing &#128540;
Mix well in a bottle ( covered), until dissolved completely, use quick- keep it for 6 months max. Shake the bottle before use. Later on: don't use household cleaners for Jnats- the acids and ammonia can destroy the shellack, warm water and heat as well. For this you get the natural non- toxic laquer. The more while ( not- colored)- the less wax inside. The stones can be re-lacquered after some time. Nice smell- like chocolate bonbons with brandy filling &#128540;&#128077;


----------



## Mute-on

Thanks Andrey :thumbsup: I only have a very small Toishi House, so making and using should be quick (and no I won't drink it while mixing )

Great tips for further use and cleaning, too :doublethumbsup:

All the best 

J


----------



## Andrey V

Mute-on said:


> Thanks Andrey :thumbsup: I only have a very small Toishi House, so making and using should be quick (and no I won't drink it while mixing )
> 
> Great tips for further use and cleaning, too :doublethumbsup:
> 
> All the best
> 
> J



Welcome! &#128077;
Good luck to you. Share your results 
Have a nice day 
Andrey


----------



## CoqaVin

Where do you get the seiki looks like an interesting stone to use before an aoto


----------



## Asteger

Re: old shellac - I've had that before, and the stuff just seemed forever gummy and soft, until I lacquered over it with fresher stuff that dried hard.

I guess making it yourself is the best option, unless you can by it in liquid form with a recent manufacturing date.



Andrey V said:


> He he, no Kanji, no link. I couldn't find nothing with this foolish name. From all i know/ have seen/tried it the nearest picture of Natsuya indeed. Anyhow, nice coarse stone. ( surprised to hear it from me&#55357;&#56860;&#55357;&#56860;?)



Of course. Very surprised to hear that from Awasedo Andrey. 

To compare, maybe you've seen this Fine Tools photo of 3 Natsuya? This photo gives a good overview of the different looks, from whiter to bright cheddar, with swirling patterns to white flakes to neither. Sometimes they have smaller black dots too, though not really in this photo.


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> Where do you get the seiki looks like an interesting stone to use before an aoto



Oh yeah, it's good to use exactly in this way! &#128521;
From JNS. But this is the second Black Saeki for some years i see at JNS. Maksim has Browns all the time, he likes to use them as well, i tried them in person, but... The Black one is harder, and it feels completely different.... I personally prefer harder stones. 
BTW-Maksim keeps the Brown one in water, it needs to be soaked for a long period of time. I don't have this option at home, so i prefer splash & go stones.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Re: old shellac - I've had that before, and the stuff just seemed forever gummy and soft, until I lacquered over it with fresher stuff that dried hard.
> 
> I guess making it yourself is the best option, unless you can by it in liquid form with a recent manufacturing date.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. Very surprised to hear that from Awasedo Andrey.
> 
> To compare, maybe you've seen this Fine Tools photo of 3 Natsuya? This photo gives a good overview of the different looks, from whiter to bright cheddar, with swirling patterns to white flakes to neither. Sometimes they have smaller black dots too, though not really in this photo.



Yeah, i know these photos 
Mine looks less yellow 
Check it
BTW, my Amakusa looks similar to that one stone on the right part. 




Reg Shellack: the longer it stays, the thicker and " gummier" it becomes. You can add some alcohol to " refresh " it. Or make/ buy some new stuff. Shellack keeps good condition for ca 6 months..&#128563;


----------



## jklip13

Koma


----------



## panda

my natsuya looks like the one on the right appears to have 'wood grain', and it's huge!


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Mine looks less yellow Check it



Yes, def appears to be a lighter-coloured Natsuya to me. The black bits: they're specks, though, not 'bubbles' or holes, right? Some Amakusa can have similar colours but also sometimes lots of bubbles, and Natsuya don't have these. 



panda said:


> my natsuya looks like the one on the right appears to have 'wood grain', and it's huge!



Yes, I remember. Originally I bought that one and sent it on to Vinster. Between 2.5-3.0 kilos I think and nice patterns. Good score. 



jklip13 said:


> Koma



4 large ones. Do you sharpen - sorry, 'hone' - razors? Are any Asano?


----------



## jklip13

Asteger said:


> 4 large ones. Do you sharpen - sorry, 'hone' - razors? Are any Asano?



They are not Asano no, they were sold as sword polishing koma for beginners (because of the small size)

I like them on razors, tools, and double bevel knives, I haven't tried them yet on single beveled knives

I have a bigger Asano Koma coming soon, I can't wait!


----------



## Asteger

jklip13 said:


> They are not Asano no, they were sold as sword polishing koma for beginners (because of the small size) ... I have a bigger Asano Koma coming soon, I can't wait!



Nice. You like your koma. ... Yours are certainly large for what people usually have, at least with Asano, as most will be just 80g or a little more than 100g. A really large Asano - say, almost 1kg - might sell for near JPY100,000 in JPN - but that would be very rare. (I think polishers just sell/trade these amongst themselves.)


----------



## jklip13

Asteger said:


> Nice. You like your koma. ... Yours are certainly large for what people usually have, at least with Asano, as most will be just 80g or a little more than 100g. A really large Asano - say, almost 1kg - might sell for near JPY100,000 in JPN - but that would be very rare. (I think polishers just sell/trade these amongst themselves.)



Yes I love my Koma!
Finding big ones is so hard I agree
The one I have coming is 1066g


----------



## Andrey V

jklip13 said:


> Yes I love my Koma!
> Finding big ones is so hard I agree
> The one I have coming is 1066g



Congrats, they are great


----------



## Andrey V

Funny story

My first good Jnat is damn hard Ohira Tomae, a greenish/ grayish heavy stone. It's useful as a " base" in combination with Naguras. So, frankly speaking, I don't use it , very seldom. 
I have found yesterday a very nice way to use it: it's a great sharpening stone for very hard powdered steel knives! I sharpened my PM Damascus and only when i came to this almost forgotten stone I realized how good it is on this steel!!! 
Even Couticule has been beaten , easily!! 
Same with my super hard Takashima. It is very fine, but really hard. So these tough PM steels, as well as real Damascus steels need such stones..


----------



## Andrey V

BTW: i started a new project: i change my Kato Dragon with Uchigumori fingerstones. Kato is very hard, but I'll manage it!!


----------



## jklip13

Andrey V said:


> Funny story
> 
> My first good Jnat is damn hard Ohira Tomae, a greenish/ grayish heavy stone. It's useful as a " base" in combination with Naguras. So, frankly speaking, I don't use it , very seldom.
> I have found yesterday a very nice way to use it: it's a great sharpening stone for very hard powdered steel knives! I sharpened my PM Damascus and only when i came to this almost forgotten stone I realized how good it is on this steel!!!
> Even Couticule has been beaten , easily!!
> Same with my super hard Takashima. It is very fine, but really hard. So these tough PM steels, as well as real Damascus steels need such stones..



I had a very similar story with my first natural stone, a Shobu Iromono, I hated it when i first got it. I didn't know how to keep it clean, so I always thought it was scratchy. Now i use it and love it

Sometimes the stones that are not great for polishing still leave incredible edges. Personally I prefer synthetic stones for PM steel and stick with carbons for natural stones (but I have sharpened Nenohi's CowryX on natural stones successfully)


----------



## jklip13

Andrey V said:


> BTW: i started a new project: i change my Kato Dragon with Uchigumori fingerstones. Kato is very hard, but I'll manage it!!



Are you doing a full polish on the Kato??? good luck!


----------



## Andrey V

jklip13 said:


> Are you doing a full polish on the Kato??? good luck!



Worse : i'm putting a nice deep Kasumi on it! &#128540;
Owning many Katos i know it's steel- very tough, very hard, but... I have some good progress already!! So after a week it will look FANTASTIC!


----------



## jklip13

please post pictures when you're done


----------



## Andrey V

jklip13 said:


> please post pictures when you're done



I will. Oh yessss, i will!
It comes out after first 2 sessions a1,5/2 hours already interesting. I played with fingerstones, matching the steel with the stones, i see which stone performs better, now it's a pure process: all has been found, now to work. 
Just prepared some fingerstones for the next sessions!!


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Funny story - My first good Jnat is damn hard Ohira Tomae, a greenish/ grayish heavy stone. It's useful as a " base" in combination with Naguras. So, frankly speaking, I don't use it , very seldom.



Similar with me, and one of my first 2 or 3 stones. I still keep it because, well, it's a good stone and maybe a bit of nostalgia. (Mine might also be a bit less hard than yours, and so I haven't decided yet if it's that different from my pricier Shobu.)

Speaking of tomae, from what I know/think, when we talk of Ohira we often think of Ohira suita (a kind of Jnat 'brand') and so if it's not a suita but still an Ohira then we tend to point out that it's a tomae. However, it's probably not necessary as, if 'suita' or another layer isn't otherwise specified, then most likely (and you can assume) it's a tomae anyway. We don't mention 'tomae' for Takashima or Hakka, etc, but I'm pretty sure that these are all tomae too. Not sure if anyone knows anything more? I don't actually pay that much attention to the layers, myself. (Forgot: there's some sort of nickname for tomae, I think, because it's such a bountiful layer. When the miners would hit it it'd be celebration time.) 



Andrey V said:


> BTW: i started a new project: i change my Kato Dragon with Uchigumori fingerstones. Kato is very hard, but I'll manage it!!



What do you want it to look like in the end? 

How about erasing the dragon!?


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Similar with me, and one of my first 2 or 3 stones. I still keep it because, well, it's a good stone and maybe a bit of nostalgia. (Mine might also be a bit less hard than yours, and so I haven't decided yet if it's that different from my pricier Shobu.)
> 
> Speaking of tomae, from what I know/think, when we talk of Ohira we often think of Ohira suita (a kind of Jnat 'brand') and so if it's not a suita but still an Ohira then we tend to point out that it's a tomae. However, it's probably not necessary as, if 'suita' or another layer isn't otherwise specified, then most likely (and you can assume) it's a tomae anyway. We don't mention 'tomae' for Takashima or Hakka, etc, but I'm pretty sure that these are all tomae too. Not sure if anyone knows anything more? I don't actually pay that much attention to the layers, myself. (Forgot: there's some sort of nickname for tomae, I think, because it's such a bountiful layer. When the miners would hit it it'd be celebration time.)
> 
> 
> 
> What do you want it to look like in the end?
> 
> How about erasing the dragon!?



Reg Ohira: maybe you're right, but to me Ohira( though my definetely favorite mine) isn't just Suita. Tomae, Uchigumori ( Jizuya/Hazuya). I have and use them all with my pleasure.
The purchase of that Ohira Tomae was a reasonable step: i had already a midsized Ohira Tomae ( not specified as Ohira Tomae) and i wanted a bigger stone to understand it. I found out ( by studying/ comparing colours/structure by photos!!!!) that that was Ohira Tomae and found this stone. Such a way from very beginning . 

Reg Dragon- it's a deep engraving- as you can see on my previous projects- it brings any engraving out, underlines it, if you want. Kanji looks deeper etc

- have you seen my Hiromoto project, for example?
With Kato it comes out even better


----------



## Vangelis

Hej Andrey,

I hope you will bring this beauty at the gathering next month  i am looking fwd to see it, as with your extremly bad photo skills :justkidding: we cant see the sheer beauty of your work. 

I dont know if you are honning razors but do you think a oriha tomae lv3 can be used as pre-polisher? I also have this one and I am not certain if i like it or not...

See you shortly 

V


----------



## Andrey V

Vangelis said:


> Hej Andrey,
> 
> I hope you will bring this beauty at the gathering next month  i am looking fwd to see it, as with your extremly bad photo skills :justkidding: we cant see the sheer beauty of your work.
> 
> I dont know if you are honning razors but do you think a oriha tomae lv3 can be used as pre-polisher? I also have this one and I am not certain if i like it or not...
> 
> See you shortly
> 
> V



&#954;&#945;&#955;&#942; &#956;&#941;&#961;&#945;, Vangelis!
&#967;&#945;&#961;&#959;&#973;&#956;&#949; &#957;&#945; &#963;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#954;&#959;&#973;&#963;&#959;&#965;&#956;&#949;!
Will be glad to see you soon! Hope you are out of wedding stress . 
I will show another project, much more interesting..
Ohira is not a pre-polisher, it's fine enough to be the finisher. Tomae is hard and fine, can give a nice mirror finish. If to hard- can scratch the blade - so test it before and please, don't push, work just with the weight of the blade
See you soon
Bring me your lovely olive oil! I'l buy a can, ok? &#128540;&#128521;
See you mate


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> View attachment 24879
> 
> have you seen my Hiromoto project, for example?



Lovely


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Lovely



Yeah &#128540;
I really like the finish which can be achieved with Uchigumori ..





Every time you have to choose the right type of the stone, matching ever single steel. It's a challenge... 
But the nice one.


----------



## Asteger

Those are some serious $100 knives!


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Those are some serious $100 knives!



Oh yeah...! Check my previous one picture- there are all nice 100$ knives!.. And a lot of 100-er stones &#128540;&#128540;&#128540;&#128576;&#128576;&#128576;&#128576;! 
And peace&freedom for everybody &#128521;!


----------



## chinacats

As an aside here, doesn't aoto translate literally as blue stone or something like that? I see red and green aoto, but in speaking with a tool guy with bookoo J-nats he said only aoto is actually blue others are imitating or similar in feel maybe?


----------



## Andrey V

chinacats said:


> As an aside here, doesn't aoto translate literally as blue stone or something like that? I see red and green aoto, but in speaking with a tool guy with bookoo J-nats he said only aoto is actually blue others are imitating or similar in feel maybe?



Right. We had discussed all this in the topic above. Aoto= blue stone. Red Aoto- is a stone , which is very similar in grit&hardness , greenish Red Aoto is the harder " version" of " Red Aoto" , which is from Akapin layer, but mined as a whetstone ( the miners seemed to think they 've found an awasedo strata, but it wasn't that fine). Like this. Anyway, the stone is quite unique, can be used in same way as Aoto, is very consistent, and maybe not to get... . 
Feels much more interesting then " normal " Aotos from Tanba fields. I would say, it feels like coarser Takashima, more or less.


----------



## Dardeau

Coarse Takashima is a good way to put it. It finishes Deba and gyutos very well. Definitely upped my tuna cutting game, toothy enough to get traction on the skin, and fine enough to not rip up the flesh.


----------



## Asteger

chinacats said:


> doesn't aoto translate literally as blue stone or something like that? I see red and green aoto, but in speaking with a tool guy with bookoo J-nats he said only aoto is actually blue others are imitating



Ao=blue and to=stone, so the literal meaning is 'blue stone'.

'Red aoto' and 'green aoto' are just names for atagoyama stones that JNS has sold, and somebody must have come up with the idea for calling them this for convenience or marketing reasons. The idea's odd if you know the meaning, but most people don't (it's Japanese) and/or don't care or worry about it anyway. It works because, like Andrey said, they can be similar to how most people think of other aoto, and it also looks like the idea's been a big JNS success.

There plenty other examples of 'fuzzy' stone names. Honyama is one; it had a clearer meaning in the past but now in Japan is applied to stones from all over Kyoto and even beyond. I don't think any Japanese would understand what's meant by 'red/green aoto' but the naming isn't totally odd considering. 

Actually, there aren't really any controls to how names are applied to stones. There are no stone police or enforceable European-style DOC rules like with wine, or cheese, etc, that I've every heard of. It's not a big and serious enough business for that, I suppose. As we know, stones will often be known by origin and appearance. (There are other ways, of course.) Most people today (in Japan, and elsewhere too I guess) will imagine 'aoto' as coming from the Tamba area in Kyoto-fu, although there are 1 or 2 similar stones from nearby that look the same and are similar and seem to be grouped with these. Maybe some are very slightly blue-ish, but they're hardly blue and so calling them aoto doesn't make sense based on appearance; it's more a comment on their origin and it's the custom. 

There are some stones found in other parts of Japan that really are blue-ish and are also medium in coarseness. (Ikarashi for eg.) So, aoto don't necessarily need to be from around Kyoto and can be different from how we usually think of them. These are sometimes called aoto too. My idea is that back in history 'blue stones' developed a good reputation around the country. They probably had multiple origins, and the name could suit appearance and was convenient. And so the name was also applied to stones from the Tamba region because of their similar coarseness and role, even if calling them 'blue' is a stretch.


----------



## chinacats

Thanks guys, now Maxim when are you getting some more Aoto?


----------



## Asteger

chinacats said:


> Thanks guys, now Maxim when are you getting some more Aoto?



If you mean red and green, he always says the supply is exhausted but 1 or 2 seem to pop up now and then. Like with 'real' aoto they seem to vary a lot so, although the stone will be 'good' it might or might not suit you and be similar to others. If you mean other aoto he's sold, I had one 'vintage' and a second not from him that came from the same wholesaler, and they were pretty good. Wouldn't know where to get them otherwise, unless from Japan.


----------



## Andrey V

chinacats said:


> Thanks guys, now Maxim when are you getting some more Aoto?



It's pretty weird to answer on the question being addressed to Maksim . 
He is just out for a couple of weeks, as far as i know. I heard from him he were really surprised to get again the last bunch of these Akapin- coloured reddish/greenish Atagoyama -origin Aotos. Mined by occasionally, some weird strata, really great quick stones, who knows, if they appear again.. At least they disappear as soon as they appear. So check it !


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> It's pretty weird to answer on the question being addressed to Maksim .



Nah, that kind of thing happens around here a lot, and you just did the same too!. :happymug: Plus, I know M has made big announcements he is busy with a visitor, and he also doesn't write here anymore.


----------



## Dardeau

My new JNAT: Odori Nagura


With a Mizuno 270 yanagi for size reference


Scratch pattern on the same knife

Recent BST procurement, and by far the best middle stone I have ever used. It's huge, soft without dishing much, and as muddy or muddier than a red aoto. A pleasure to use, I have a feeling my Ikarashi is about to find a new home. I know you guys like to build toishi houses, but I like it lean and mean. If any more of these show up, get one, you will probably like it.


----------



## CoqaVin

I need a coarse natural, I feel as if the amakusa doesn't do anything


----------



## Dardeau

This definitely isn't in the neighborhood of an amakusa, definitely closer to the 1k neighborhood. I'm so pleased with this thing. I finished a Tojiro DP I'm gifting on it and then stropped it on an Ohira and it cuts like crazy. I have to put some sandpaper to the knife, as I thinned the crap out of it, and then I'll stick a new edge on it and see if the way this sharpens stainless is a fluke. It also did a great job with the carbon I put on it, I just didn't finish any of them with it.


----------



## Asteger

The Odori looks nice - and looks good in your photo. Congrats. Yeah, I like that soft kind of stone, and the light-coloured slurry. I haven't tried one and asked a Japanese guy about them and he didn't really speak too highly. All depends on the actualy stone you get, though, and what you like. Wouldn't mind one myself, for the right price.

Ikarashi - quite a different stone. Def harder, and looks finer than the odori here.



CoqaVin said:


> I need a coarse natural, I feel as if the amakusa doesn't do anything



What kind of Amakusa is it? (white binsui, or with brownish patterns, etc?) Have you tried another side? Sometimes it might just be a matter of finding the right side. However, Amakusa do range in quality.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> What kind of Amakusa is it? (white binsui, or with brownish patterns, etc?) Have you tried another side? Sometimes it might just be a matter of finding the right side. However, Amakusa do range in quality.



Right. Amakusa ( brownish rainbow- like) should be used on right side. Sometimes it look on every side almost the same ( mine does), and because this is a nice big brick ( i mean totally square) - it's quite hard to find the right working surface. 
The real problem is that the wrong sizes cut just very bad and can even scratch the blade, so one could conclude the stone is a piece if sh..t. 
I tell it not to teach someone here, by far not, just sharing my personal experience.


----------



## CoqaVin

Brownish rainbow, I'll try a different side, just might not be good quality, is there something comparable


----------



## Asteger

Brownish rainbow Amakusa - look very cool, and can be good. Maybe don't worry too much as they can be (fairly typical) nat stones and are, therefore, not 100% consistent within the stone. You have to get a feel for where things work a certain way, etc. If it's a good stone, there should be a pretty consistent side you can find and use. (Not true with normal aoto or layered finishers.) Otherwise, it'll be a disappointment. ... And think about all those patterns and the likelihood that it will (really) be a very uniform stone. Not too likely.

Example alternatives:
(coarser) Omura - now people know about this one here as it's appeared on JNS - boring grey bricks, but consistent quality I think and good - coarser than what you have
(same-ish) Natsuya - perfect upgrade replacement, but unavailable - and there are other really unavailable once-mined stones out there 
(finer) Binsui - lower-med stones that follow coarse stones, and which are also white/whitish - typically 'binsui' stones are best-quality white stones, also from Amakusa I think, though that isn't traditional - should be finer than your current one 

... Actually there are a lot of possibilities, but they're impossible to get or they're not known.


----------



## Andrey V

Some of my new toys&#128540;: a very hight-end stuff- damn fine Nakayama Kiita, a rare Hakka Karasu, a super quick&fine Okudo Suita ( a sister of another Okudo Suita, very hard&fine&quick&#128540, some new hight-end wooden boxes made to measure out of solid wood, nice stuff, i tell you...


----------



## CoqaVin

Nice stones as usual


----------



## Asteger

Looking good. Nice kiita colour. Old stamps on the hakka. Any story with this one?


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Looking good. Nice kiita colour. Old stamps on the hakka. Any story with this one?



I don't like usual Hakka- is too soft for me . 
But this one is VERY different. Hard, very fine, very quick. Very interesting feeling. And the stone is huge- ca 1,5-1,7 cm from the surface there are big Karasu layers. Gives mirror finish easily. 
Nakayama is just AWESOME! The best and finest Kiita i've ever er used. Really cool, I couldn't resist, despite it's price. Checked on hard carbon knives, tools and razors. Real jewel. 
But the Okudo Suita is just amazing- having thing "Karasu hairs" provides hardness in combination with outstanding super-fine-structure of the stone. It give an amazing result- i have some great Okudo as well, but this one is something. It gives the slurry very quickly. It feels like a very fine quick semi-soft stone. But isn't that soft. Great stone..
So these are really very very rare stones in outstanding quality, i'm happy to have them.


----------



## Asteger

Well done! Not bad at all for $100 each (well, as far as the wife is concerned). 

I have soooo many med-stones, I'll have to sell a few in the future and pick up 1 or 2 more Andrey-style finishers, although I'd still contend it's the med-stones that are the useful ones for knives.

You, on the other hand, with that mountain of premium finishers - looks like it's time to retire!


----------



## chinacats

Alright, since you folks seem to know the real deal here, maybe you can help me find an "inexpensive" mid range natty for knives. I have a finisher that is very nice--not sure of the stone but I bought it from Maxim a while back--he described it as either a hard knife or soft razor stone.

I don't need a large stone, but want something I can finish some knives with (2-3k equivalent) or use in a progression. I tried a very expensive blue aoto and it was incredible, but both very expensive _and_ not for sale.

Thanks


----------



## chinacats

^^ The finisher that I have from Maxim is called a Mizukihara San Lv 3 (a130)...don't know if this helps or not.


----------



## TaJ

Seems this is the one you got:
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/mizukihara-san-lv-3-a130/


----------



## chinacats

Thanks Tom, that is the one. I'm looking for something that I can use before that or as a finisher on certain knives--ideally a mid-range gyuto stone. Ideally in the same price range. 

Cheers


----------



## TaJ

Seems a good Aoto or their red cousins, 'Red Aoto' or Atagoyama could be what you are looking for.

Quoting Maxim: ""Red Aoto" or Atagoyama. They are plased betwin Aoto and Akapin layer, some of them are red some are green. Green ones is bit harder "

Maxim gets them in every now and then, so i guess having an eye on his site would do the trick (that's how i got my nice red 'Aoto'). Before you get an Aoto (blue) make sure to have someone recommend that particular stone, since they can vary (what i read here, no first-hand experience). A red 'Aoto' (Atagoyama) will be a bit higher in price. Others will chime in with more recommendations, I am sure.


----------



## daveb

You've seen this Ikarashi? I use one before Green Aoto. I've not used it to finish knives with it (stainless?) but don't know why it couldn't.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/20182-Ikarashi-and-Suehiro-300


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Well done! Not bad at all for $100 each (well, as far as the wife is concerned).
> 
> I have soooo many med-stones, I'll have to sell a few in the future and pick up 1 or 2 more Andrey-style finishers, although I'd still contend it's the med-stones that are the useful ones for knives.
> 
> You, on the other hand, with that mountain of premium finishers - looks like it's time to retire!



Well, Asteger
Last time i tried to say a real price for a knife or stone ( quite " inexpensive " , btw just occasionally, my wife stopped me by saying: " no no, just a 100$ piece" . So the game goes on. 
You know, i've got a top- quality Ikarashi. A harder version of the stone, very hard one, very nice. Best Ikarashi colour, a pleasure to look at. 
You say- to retire?? I sold some just good stones leaving and getting only the best. I missed some great stones meanwhile, so i have to be more attentive... We will see &#128526;


----------



## CoqaVin

any of you guys ever use a Wakasa stone?


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> any of you guys ever use a Wakasa stone?



Sure. Mostly for razors. I saw it / tried it in Asagi
Hard, quite scratchy, can be just very hard, quite fine, similar to Ozuki
Why? To be used on knives? Can hardly imagine. Razors& tools. Or as a " stone board " for Naguras.


----------



## CoqaVin

Oh ok was jw always looking for a diamond in the rough


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> Oh ok was jw always looking for a diamond in the rough



Omura...


----------



## Asteger

chinacats said:


> Thanks Tom, that is the one. I'm looking for something that I can use before that or as a finisher on certain knives--ideally a mid-range gyuto stone. Ideally in the same price range. Cheers



Would around 3k be okay? Seems that is a popular target, and the kind of range I also like. Harder or softer? 

There are actually many kinds of med stones - more than finishers - but they're often more obscure and unavailable, though not less interesting.


----------



## chinacats

Update, I picked two stones to choose between. I got a binsui from Maxim and a blue aoto from A-frames...the binsui has arrived and I'm still waiting on the aoto. The binsui works nicely, leaving a toothy finish that cuts pretty well, and was refined enough to go straight to my finisher. Will report back once I get the aoto.


----------



## CoqaVin

^^I have a vintage AOTO, best stone I have


----------



## Asteger

chinacats said:


> Update, I picked two stones to choose between. I got a binsui from Maxim and a blue aoto from A-frames...the binsui has arrived and I'm still waiting on the aoto. The binsui works nicely, leaving a toothy finish that cuts pretty well, and was refined enough to go straight to my finisher. Will report back once I get the aoto.



Nice choices. Binsui are traditionally good and probably not expensive. If your binsui's from JNS, then has to be an Amakusa 'best class' as white Amakusa are described. I have a couple whites like this, and they're good. On the softer side and easy to use. Wondering if it's fine enough for you or not? Aoto, meanwhile, can be great but are hit and miss. People seem to love'em when they get the right one.


----------



## chinacats

Yes, I like a rather toothy edge on certain knives and while the binsui provides this it still was fairly easy to refine on my finisher. As to the aoto, I too had the good fortune to try a rather awesome vintage one and figured I would see if I could find one myself. Maxim's red and green seem to rarely be in stock and I trust A-frames, so we shall just have to wait and see if it is the real deal or not. The vinage one that I tried was a bit of a lighter blue than I've seen on other aotos--huge but felt like nothing else I have tried.

Thanks for the explanation on the binsui, amakusa was the only thing I knew of in this range in this color, but glad to know that is what the binsui is for sure. Mine has a small crack that appears to run through the entire stone, but can only be felt on one side so guessing it is fine though I am trying to figure out if I should try to mount it or not. It is a huge stone (~55mm tall), so thinking it may crack under it's own weight if not mounted?


----------



## Asteger

chinacats said:


> ... the binsui, amakusa ... has a small crack that appears to run through the entire stone, but can only be felt on one side so guessing it is fine though I am trying to figure out if I should try to mount it or not. It is a huge stone (~55mm tall), so thinking it may crack under it's own weight if not mounted?



I've had a few stones like this, of different origins. As yours is a binsui/white amakusa maybe the crack isn't so dangerous and may be just a typical 'outer' crack and not penetrate. I forget, but I think these stones are still mined today and so yours shouldn't be that old and not so sensitive. (Many mediums were mined 50+ years ago, some 100+ years ago.) However, stones like yours do this. They're not the layered Kyoto type and have a more uniform composition, and so the cracks can run anywhere, and seem to result from expansion/contraction due to water, temperature, etc. My advice is to figure out which side is best for sharpening and lacquer the other sides before you start using it regularly, and don't wet it much when you experiment. If the cracking is due to moisture, maybe let it dry out for a week first before you lacquer; there might be deep moisture that'll get out and you'll see the crack slowly disappear as the stone resumes its former shape, even if you know it'd re-emerge if made wet again, meaning that you should get on with the lacquering. Also, once you do lacquer it solidly and begin to use it normally you may find that the crack ends up barely noticeable, and if it is lacquered well and just a normal outer line than it'll be nothing to worry about. Oh, and don't soak it whatever you do (tempting with new stones if you want to Atoma-tise and re-shape them).


----------



## Asteger

... Forgot to say: if you're worried you can also reinforce by lacquering on some kind of thin paper. There are traditional papers in Japan that are sometimes used (forget the names) but suppose you could use anything, maybe, which is thinner and works well with the lacquer and looks cool. (Thin Japanese paper with Kanji looks good.) Big Tsushima which are prone to breaking or crumbling are typically sold these days with heavy black cashew lacquer and some kind of paper reinforcement.


----------



## chinacats

Asteger said:


> I've had a few stones like this, of different origins. As yours is a binsui/white amakusa maybe the crack isn't so dangerous and may be just a typical 'outer' crack and not penetrate. I forget, but I think these stones are still mined today and so yours shouldn't be that old and not so sensitive. (Many mediums were mined 50+ years ago, some 100+ years ago.) However, stones like yours do this. They're not the layered Kyoto type and have a more uniform composition, and so the cracks can run anywhere, and seem to result from expansion/contraction due to water, temperature, etc. My advice is to figure out which side is best for sharpening and lacquer the other sides before you start using it regularly, and don't wet it much when you experiment. If the cracking is due to moisture, maybe let it dry out for a week first before you lacquer; there might be deep moisture that'll get out and you'll see the crack slowly disappear as the stone resumes its former shape, even if you know it'd re-emerge if made wet again, meaning that you should get on with the lacquering. Also, once you do lacquer it solidly and begin to use it normally you may find that the crack ends up barely noticeable, and if it is lacquered well and just a normal outer line than it'll be nothing to worry about. Oh, and don't soak it whatever you do (tempting with new stones if you want to Atoma-tise and re-shape them).



Most helpful advice, thank you. When I lacquer the stone, do I just do the 'bottom' (the side with the crack that you can feel) or do the sides as well? I did have to try it out though and only used it as a splash and go--as I've pretty much used all naturals, are there some natties that need to be soaked?


----------



## Asteger

I don't think people really ever soak naturals, as there's no need, unless you've got, for eg, a really dry aoto (which isn't much use and is likely to split but you're willing to take the chance). No, that has to be a synthetic thing. However, if you want to re-shape a new stone, it's tempting to put the whole thing in water so it's all wet, which is what I was saying.

Regardless, if some stones just get very wet during use and they're new then they might show some fine surface cracks. I've had that, but never had a stone come close to splitting. 

As for where to lacquer, usually I do all sides but the sharpening side. However, sometimes I leave, for eg, the bottom and top open, or the top and a side, just for different sharpening options. (Some stones can be used on all sides, but you have to choose which side is best.) Up to you, but of course full lacquering would give the most stability. No idea if different lacquers are better at this than others, but the idea is that as it dries it tightens around the stone. At the very least, lacquer'll fill in cracks and stabilise them and 'grip' them, and I've also thought some cracks shrink too, maybe because the lacquer does tighten around the stone, maybe like a rubber band.

Another lacquering advantage, they dry out only through the open sides but they're safer to store when you do it. For example, they won't seep moisture below or get mouldy, etc.


----------



## chinacats

Doh, I missed the part about soaking--for flattening/shaping.

And double doh for thinking the crack is top to bottom...it's now side to side (don't loose much size this way) and I can lacquer all but two sides and have a top and bottom 

Cheers


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Would around 3k be okay? Seems that is a popular target, and the kind of range I also like. Harder or softer?
> 
> There are actually many kinds of med stones - more than finishers - but they're often more obscure and unavailable, though not less interesting.



Aha.. 
More then finishers?? Really &#128521;?


----------



## Andrey V

Guys, could you read it? What's written here?
Thanks


----------



## chinacats

Update on my binsui...not a crack I felt on the side/bottom, but a cut mark from when they made the stone I suppose...just happened to be in the line I could see but in better light I could see it clearly. Still thinking about using lacquer to finish it.

Oh and obviously no help from me on the kanji above but what a beautiful stone.


----------



## Andrey V

Looks and feels very similar to Takashima, but i would like to be sure


----------



## panda

only time i ever soaked a jnat was to try and flatten it. had a brand new ikarashi so it had large bevels on both sides that need to be ground out. that was taking entirely way too long so i gave up after an hour and half the DMT life wasted away. i have since gotten an atoma since then and just flatten it a little after every use. eventually it will become normal shape!

speaking of, i can't believe that already flattened ikarashi is still available in BST..


----------



## Andrey V

A good Takashima, for sure.. A bit finer that the other i have, a bit harder, leaves better finish, mirror- like. Less mirror, then fine Okudo or Nakayama, but still very clear one


----------



## daveb

Andrey V said:


> View attachment 25540
> View attachment 25541
> 
> Guys, could you read it? What's written here?
> Thanks



Andrey, It says "Please return to Dave" I'll pm my address:groucho:


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## Andrey V

daveb said:


> Andrey, It says "Please return to Dave" I'll pm my address:groucho:



Yeah yeah yeah &#128540; 
Dave... Exactly.. That was the kanji I couldn't recognize!!&#128526;&#9996;&#65039;


----------



## designdog

Andrey:

What would be your finishing stone in this progression:
JNS 800
JNS Red Aoto (natural)
Takashima Suita
????
This for carbon knives, mostly double bevel, but some single bevel Suisin, Mizuno, Ikkanshi Tadasuna...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Andrey:
> 
> What would be your finishing stone in this progression:
> JNS 800
> JNS Red Aoto (natural)
> Takashima Suita
> ????
> This for carbon knives, mostly double bevel, but some single bevel Suisin, Mizuno, Ikkanshi Tadasuna...



Mizuno and Ikkanshi are very different knives..
But- considering you have a good Atagoyama from in-between layer known as " Red Aoto", which is great, and a Takashima Suita ( i suppose from JNS as well, and this should be medium-hard Suita, quite fine), the next stone would be a Nakayama. Or very fine Okudo. Or Shinden. But Nakayama would give more sophisticated edge/finish. Even in Koppa size to save money. Koppas are really cheap. A good Kiita. It would "reinforce " the edge as well. A Goby would be great as well, but damn hard to get. So - Nakayama. 
But only if you need really superb edge, forget the toothy edge with the ultimate finisher. Great for pro, only if you use single bevel. Home- pure perverse perfection, really to enjoy it &#128540;&#128077;.


----------



## Andrey V

BTW- there is a cheaper way then to buy a Nakayama, much cheaper: stroping!


----------



## designdog

Thanks! I have a good sized Nakayama on order for the end of the month - just wanted to feel more confident about spending $$$!

If you please, in what way are the two knives so different? I have usuba, miorishi, and kiritsuke in both...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Thanks! I have a good sized Nakayama on order for the end of the month - just wanted to feel more confident about spending $$$!
> 
> If you please, in what way are the two knives so different? I have usuba, miorishi, and kiritsuke in both...



I feel them different ( i have tried them as well). 
But having them in front of you, wouldn't it be easier to consider them similar or different? &#128526;&#9757;&#65039;
Glad you'll have a Nakayama- try to understand what quality/level is it. They are so different.. I have 7, i suppose, from a couple of Koppa ( btw, very good ones!!) to real jewels . Like damn expensive Kiitas. All cut/ finish differently. Even in same color, same visual identity- Jnats!! This is the most fascinating thing in it... To find the real matching-your-needs/expectations stones. 
So be intrigued, wish you a lot of great moments with your new Nakayama!!&#128540;&#128540;&#128540;&#128540;&#128525;&#128525;&#128525;


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> View attachment 25540
> View attachment 25541



Sorry to miss this, AV. I can't make out all the kanji without consulting with a stone-loving Japanese. Let me know if you need that. But nothing unusual or surprising here, I think, though looks like a nice stone. First photo: not sure of the 2 kanji on the left but I don't think important; big kanji on the right simply says the same old sho honyama awasedo/gotogi, but the first one (circle: maru-something) has a messy kanji within; a typical kind of seller mark. The sticker in the right-hand photo mostly has kanji that are too small for me to read, but in black it says Kyoto then again that it's a honyama, and then ... yama-something, without pointing at any particular mine. I can't make it out, but generally the sticker listings are pretty generic. In other words, if you're looking to identify origin there's nothing specific here. Just a standard awasedo going by the stamps. The circle 'maru' is not maruka; probably someone just borrowed the idea of circle (maru) symbol from the famous mark. Not unusual.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Sorry to miss this, AV. I can't make out all the kanji without consulting with a stone-loving Japanese. Let me know if you need that. But nothing unusual or surprising here, I think, though looks like a nice stone. First photo: not sure of the 2 kanji on the left but I don't think important; big kanji on the right simply says the same old sho honyama awasedo/gotogi, but the first one (circle: maru-something) has a messy kanji within; a typical kind of seller mark. The sticker in the right-hand photo mostly has kanji that are too small for me to read, but in black it says Kyoto then again that it's a honyama, and then ... yama-something, without pointing at any particular mine. I can't make it out, but generally the sticker listings are pretty generic. In other words, if you're looking to identify origin there's nothing specific here. Just a standard awasedo going by the stamps. The circle 'maru' is not maruka; probably someone just borrowed the idea of circle (maru) symbol from the famous mark. Not unusual.




View attachment 25558



Thanks, man. 
I'm pretty sure it is s good fine Takashima. Same slurry, same smell, same structure, same color. This new one leaves nicer finish, because is a bit finer/ harder then my older one. 
Anyhow, Sho Honyama is used as s mark for an Awaseto. So- still ok, very good. Bought for a good price. Great as well.
The resize can't give the sufficient resolution....


----------



## Asteger

I agree. Does look like a Takashima. At any rate, as said, no distinguishing kanji I can make out. Will check your email. Takashima is &#39640;&#23798; but that's not said here.


----------



## Andrey V

Almost forgotten... Of course i'm chasing after great Awasedos, but... Sometimes i refresh my " basement " stock ( for a Tennen Toishi House) . 
This time it's wonderful Jyu-Haka ( white Amakusa, should be Binsui, but compared to my existing Binsuis is much finer/denser/quicker) 

- another Rainbow Amakusa- this time even i like it . It's a bit softer then regularly, but more consistent as well, works actually as quick as a good coarse synthetic stone. I'm not a big fan of coarse Jnats, but these 2 guys are very nice ones!!
Tomorrow i'll get my carefully selected/ tested Igarashi- in a very good quality- a speedy one, a hard one, very nice color, so the basement will be more then stable!!


----------



## Asteger

Andrey, Andrey ... I'm not happy about you calling non-awasedo 'basement' stones. The red Amakusa prettier than all those finishers you own? Don't keep them down in the basement


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Andrey, Andrey ... I'm not happy about you calling non-awasedo 'basement' stones. The red Amakusa prettier than all those finishers you own? Don't keep them down in the basement



Don't underestimate the importance of the basement!! This is the solid base for the house!! Great coarse stones prepare fine final result. The Jyu-Haka is amazing, btw. 
This beautiful Amakusa works really good. Very consistent. Btw- it's not ref- it's the clear deep orange color. 
These stones are often real sh..t. But if you manage to find real jewels...
Ok, i'll make the basement visible &#128515;&#128515;&#128526;&#128526;&#128526;&#9996;&#65039;


----------



## designdog

As I delve deeper into the mysteries of Japanese natural stones, I am seeing an abundance of high priced awasedo, yet a dearth of high quality aoto stones. Stones in the grit range of 3-5k, which could be used as the final stone in a double bevel progression, or as the prelude to a finisher for wide single bevel work.

I do have a JNS red aoto, and a Meara, but I wonder if there is something else out there that warrants consideration. Any thoughts?


----------



## CoqaVin

I have heard good things about the Ikarashi designdog, andrey since you just got some coarse JNATs, would it be better to get a synthetic like say a suehiro cerax 320, for repair work, and resetting bevels instead of using a amakusa/omura


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> I have heard good things about the Ikarashi designdog, andrey since you just got some coarse JNATs, would it be better to get a synthetic like say a suehiro cerax 320, for repair work, and resetting bevels instead of using a amakusa/omura



You know, I always told i'm not s big fan of coarse Jnats.. I had them, i have them, i'll keep them as well, but: if you need the quick result- go to synthetic stones. Still sure( having tried a lot)- the most efficient coarse stone is Shapton Glas Pro- version 500 grit ( regular ones have only 5 mm working thicknesd, but last a life) 
And: JNS 300 green block- is great &quick as well. Even i like it . The coarse Jnats save metal in comparison to coarse synthetics. 
But nothing can beat great finishers- no one synthetic stone. It's strictly my opinion, but i have tried really a lot... Depends what knife do you use and for what reason..
Great high carbons- yes, yes, yes. Jnats. SS or powdered steel- modern synthetic stones can be better& quicker. But even on SS with Jnats you can acheve the level to dream of..


----------



## designdog

You call an aoto a coarse stone? Interesting. Agree that 400 to 2k is the domain of synthetics. But aoto is higher grit, yes?

All my knives are carbon, BTW.

Just wondering, what do the experts here use before the finishing stone...?


----------



## panda

Designdog, tell us more about the meara, never seen it discussed here before.

Anyone try the omura from jns yet? It looks really grainy, wonder how the feedback and speed is.


----------



## designdog

Meara is a hard stone, in the 4k grit range. Not much mud, does best with a tomo. This is the kind of stone for double bevel knives where all you want is sharpening. I follow this with a Yaginoshima Asagi.

Bought these from Ken Schwartz- good guy.

This said, I would be interested in a mid grit Jnat that falls between the softer red aoto and the harder Meara...


----------



## panda

you should look into a hard blue aoto.


----------



## vinster

Meara is name made up by Ken. He doesn't disclose much about the stone's provenance. I had purchased one a couple years ago -- I'm not sure if I still have it, but my experience with it is similar to how Maxim describes Kouzaki stones (no longer available). The pictures and dimensions of the stone lead me to believe they came from the same mine.

Makes sense -- Kouzaki is known for having hard aoto stones. My "meara" was a very hard stone, had good sharpening strength and was less fine than a takashima or hakka stone.


----------



## Andrey V

panda said:


> Designdog, tell us more about the meara, never seen it discussed here before.
> 
> Anyone try the omura from jns yet? It looks really grainy, wonder how the feedback and speed is.



I have
Omura is very grainy- muddy-soft, speedy as well. During the power sharpening you get the feeling it becomes thinner with every stroke like a butter. In fact is not the case. Quite efficient. Actually, I don't like when the stones are that soft. 
Leaves very matt scratch pattern. 
I played a lot with the stone when I received it, now less. 
To me is better for single beveled carbons.


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> You call an aoto a coarse stone? Interesting. Agree that 400 to 2k is the domain of synthetics. But aoto is higher grit, yes?
> 
> All my knives are carbon, BTW.
> 
> Just wondering, what do the experts here use before the finishing stone...?



Aoto is a medium stone for me, but still coarse. Sure, it's higher grit stone, 3-5, but still coarse! 
It is, actually. Is just a good prefinisher. Nothing more. To me . 
I never stop on it. I keep all my knives in razor sharp condition. Hard to do with Aoto - will be sharp, but never that refined as atfer Nakayama. Or Okudo. Or Ohira. Etc. 
depends on steel 
Of course, a good Aoto can be used as a finisher for kitchen purposes, leaving the toothy edge. But i personally like the feeling of separation when cutting. Not leaving the juices coming out. Not crushing the product. Separation... For this you have to go higher. 
And, not to forget- a right high grit sharpening on Jnats is not only the finish- it reinforces the cutting edge a lot, and this is again the retention. Isn't this all we are looking for??


----------



## designdog

Yes, I agree totally. But I am left with my original question: what medium grit Jnat do you recommend and use?

BTW, I have a Ohmura, and feel it is more like an 800 grit stone...


----------



## CoqaVin

Ohmura is rather COARSE, I asked Andrey if he likes it for a coarse JNAT, since there is not really that many, said synthetics can be much better at lower grits, even though he doesn't like them, my middle stone is a Vintage Blue Aoto right now, and I love it


----------



## Asteger

vinster said:


> Meara is name made up by Ken. He doesn't disclose much about the stone's provenance. I had purchased one a couple years ago -- I'm not sure if I still have it, but my experience with it is similar to how Maxim describes Kouzaki stones (no longer available). The pictures and dimensions of the stone lead me to believe they came from the same mine.
> 
> Makes sense -- Kouzaki is known for having hard aoto stones. My "meara" was a very hard stone, had good sharpening strength and was less fine than a takashima or hakka stone.



:bigeek: The mummy wakes. It's Vinster!

... Hmm, I'm not t0o crazy about dealers making up or playing with stone names, and Ken wouldn't be the only one. Identifying Jnats can be hard enough as it is.



designdog said:


> As I delve deeper into the mysteries of Japanese natural stones, I am seeing an abundance of high priced awasedo, yet a dearth of high quality aoto stones. Stones in the grit range of 3-5k, which could be used as the final stone in a double bevel progression, or as the prelude to a finisher for wide single bevel work.





Andrey V said:


> I keep all my knives in razor sharp condition.





designdog said:


> Yes, I agree totally. But I am left with my original question: what medium grit Jnat do you recommend and use?



I'm less a fan of super-fine edges, and I like mediums a lot. I also predominantly sharpen kitchen knives, and of course mediums are usually perfect for this. 

There are potentially loads of medium stones. Actually, going back in time there I'm pretty sure there would be a far greater variety out there than there would be awasedo, or Kyoto finishers. Although there are many sources of awasedo in Kyoto Prefecture, they still only come from that same small corner of the country, whereas in the past non-awasedo (med or coarse stones) were mined all over the place, and were also mined long before stones in Kyoto, meaning that there was once a huge variety in comparison. I think this makes them quite interesting. However, maybe in part because there's a lot of attention on Kyoto awasedo, the stones from other areas end up being forgotten of or overlooked, and so can be more obscure, so good luck finding them. Sellers working outside of Japan hardly deal with them, from what I can see. 

Here's a few names of well-known medium stones, in no particular order: Iyo, Amakusa (red and white 'binsui'), Jokyoji, Kaisei, Saeki, Tsunemi, Ikarashi, Tajima, Aizu, Natsuya, Numata, Mikawa, Ueno, Jichu. There're all good in their own ways, and certainly there are different types of each. (I've owned one or more of all except for a Jokyoji, Saeki and Jichu.)


----------



## Asteger

panda said:


> Anyone try the omura from jns yet? It looks really grainy, wonder how the feedback and speed is.



Yeah, I have one and sold another (not from JNS, though). I like mine, but haven't used it recently. They seem really consistent (the two I've had were identical too), they were pretty quick and felt good, though I remember this seemed to be more the case with certain knives and not with all of them. A pretty good alternative to synth coarse stones, and far less likely to dish.

For what it's worth, the 'Omura' being sold on JNS and also Japan nowadays are most certainly from Wakayama and also called 'Kishu'. Originally, Omura were mined far away in Nagasaki (and I've seen these sell for very high prices) and so some sellers have applied the well-known Omura name to the Kishu because of their similarities (so another instance, like with the 'Meara' above, of names used in confusing or erroneous ways).


----------



## CoqaVin

I have a question actually, what about those Ohira san's that maxim is selling, they are cheap, but am wondering how they would sharpen or finish, what grit range are they in do you think?


----------



## Dardeau

I have an Omura from JNS and like it a lot.

It isn't really fast enough to do serious thinning or chip removal. I put a little nick in my 210 suji boning chicken thighs and got frustrated getting it out with the Omura. 

What it excels at is maintenance thinning and an awesome base scratch pattern on large bevels, both single and double bevel. It puts out a weird mud that seems to make the finish very even, and dishes pretty slowly.

However, the search for a slow dishing stone that beats a diamond plate for serious work continues...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Yes, I agree totally. But I am left with my original question: what medium grit Jnat do you recommend and use?
> 
> BTW, I have a Ohmura, and feel it is more like an 800 grit stone...



800 grit at max.. Agree
As a medium stone( btw, i told it here many times, but nevertheless- i will say what i like- you can decide for yourself whether you accept it as recommendation or not . 
Allora: i like , really like to use a Chu Nagura, full size, it can be rated like ca 4000 ( i saw some bit coarses, some bit finer). If you have a small Chu Nagura as Tomonagura- it will be even quicker
A Tsushima Nagura full size: bit coarser then Chu, often " same" grit, but feels totally different. Reminds me a synthetic stone somehow- it's weird, but.. Works great with a set of Asano. 
A Botan full size ( more expensive, but can be VERY good). It's finer, then Chu
JNS "Red Aoto" Atagoyama- very good one- i had 2 reddish( softer ones), and 1 greenish- a harder one. I sold 2 reddish Aotos, my greenish one is REALLY awesome. Actually, enough to stop on it if you'd prefer a "toothy" edge. Quick as well. 
Regular " modern" Tanba Aotos: cheap, or affordable, still good for the price, muddy if soft, can be hard as well, the cheapest medium stone. 
Vintage Aotos: depends what-where-why. Many vintage Aotos i saw/tried weren't that good, the best i saw was the Aoto Maksim has for his use, but he rejects to sell it every time i ask . 
So IMHO , the most realistic option is a Chu/ Tsushima ( Chu is better). Other Naguras in full size are not to get/ pay. 
And, of course, a JNS Red Aoto, but i wonder if you can get it...


----------



## Andrey V

Dardeau said:


> I have an Omura from JNS and like it a lot.
> 
> It isn't really fast enough to do serious thinning or chip removal. I put a little nick in my 210 suji boning chicken thighs and got frustrated getting it out with the Omura.
> 
> What it excels at is maintenance thinning and an awesome base scratch pattern on large bevels, both single and double bevel. It puts out a weird mud that seems to make the finish very even, and dishes pretty slowly.
> 
> However, the search for a slow dishing stone that beats a diamond plate for serious work continues...



Good luck . 
I have found it ( for me)- quick, less damage to the blade: Shapton Glas Stone Pro 500. For a very coarse work- 200 grit. 
Reg Omura- is a very muddy stone, and i agree ( as mentioned above)- quite fast and pretty coarse. As to me the result on a wide single bevel is better. Very uniform scratch pattern. Diamond plate simply ruins it.


----------



## CoqaVin

how long ago did you get that Green Aoto? I heard the new ones aren't as good


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> how long ago did you get that Green Aoto? I heard the new ones aren't as good



From his last bunch. 
Some months ago. 
Previous- longer. But the last one was better. Actually, all the last were great, better or not worse then before- i saw some. I like my greenish Aoto even more then the great one from Maksim's private collection which is awesome. Mine is a bit harder, i lije harder less muddy stones. The response on it is just great. 
So i really don't know who could face the quality fall. Could be , but my previous ones were definitely not that TOP as the last one- that's why i sold them.


----------



## CoqaVin

I hear ya


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> I have a question actually, what about those Ohira san's that maxim is selling, they are cheap, but am wondering how they would sharpen or finish, what grit range are they in do you think?



I tried them as well. Nothing really impressive for me.
BUT: they are cheap, you can use them as a hand holding stone for finishing purposes as well. Not too hard, but not too soft as well. As a hand-holding- stone i prefer a small Hakka ( the only reason to use a Hakka for me . 
I would rate it like 6k, maybe 6+. Definitely above Aotos, but under Suitas.


----------



## Dardeau

Andrey, I think you misunderstand. I started to take the chip out with the Omura, then got frustrated and pulled out the DMT. I used the diamond plate to get the chip out, then used the Omura to start rebuilding the finish.

I would ideally like to use a stone for this but every one I have tried is either too slow, dished too quickly, or both. The feeling of doing repairs on the plates makes me insane, not to mention the sound, but I also can't stand spending too long working out a chip, then thinning to a usable state.


----------



## Andrey V

Dardeau said:


> Andrey, I think you misunderstand. I started to take the chip out with the Omura, then got frustrated and pulled out the DMT. I used the diamond plate to get the chip out, then used the Omura to start rebuilding the finish.
> 
> I would ideally like to use a stone for this but every one I have tried is either too slow, dished too quickly, or both. The feeling of doing repairs on the plates makes me insane, not to mention the sound, but I also can't stand spending too long working out a chip, then thinning to a usable state.



No, Dardeau, i have understood you very good.
I have repaired some heavy damaged knives for my friends ( started to " involve" them into our world, but..)
I can show the pics - a Nakiri with 5 and 6 mill chips, a kato which was misused to a saw... 
Even there i used a Shapton Glas 500 Pro- really efficient. On Nakiri - well, i started with Atoma 140, but switched to Shapton Glas 280. Then i did the full thinning, sure, after " cutting off" 6 mm of still, all the cutting edge, actually... I had to thin and open it again. I'll post the pictures. With real timing i invested in it.
BTW- Omura wasn't that usefull for the job...


----------



## Dardeau

Maybe I'll try the Shaptons. I don't have to go that down very often, a few times a year after accidents.


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## Andrey V

- guess which one is the repaired one . 
1 hour work- inkl final refining /finish

- poor Nakiri- not only hardly chipped, but also wavy..

thinning in action after full repair works. 

- opened the core steel again

fully refinished- this is the comparison original vs repair. Even better!! No need to use diamond.. Ca 2 hours to repair, ab 1,5 hours for thinning/ finishing.


----------



## Andrey V

one more picture of the final result
My friend told me- " no, man, you foolish me- to keep your reputation you just bought the new knife" .
I 've even done very even parallel scratch pattern as a finish on it. Looks really nice.


----------



## Andrey V

Dardeau said:


> Maybe I'll try the Shaptons. I don't have to go that down very often, a few times a year after accidents.



You know, I'm a freak concerning the Jnats. But: i really thing that in coarse and medium- low grit the new artificial synthetic stones are more efficient... Just quicker, preciser , means better. If i have more time- i never grab my Shapton Glass. Then i take a Rainbow Amakusa, or Jyu-Haka, or Black Saeki ( the Brown Saeki is too soft), of Igarashi, or Natsuya etc..
The price is nothing in comparison with it's efficiency and thinking about the JNats( though the coarse Jnats are affordable)


----------



## Dardeau

That Kato was rough, I would feel bad giving that one back. I (knock on wood) don't ever chip anything that badly, barring the 'knock the yanagiba off the fish table, on to the floor, trying to catch it on the way down, cutting the **** out of myself, and chipping the knife anyway' incident. Mostly it's tiny less than a mm stuff from going too fast with too much to do. Maybe I'll pick up one for the next time.


----------



## Andrey V

Dardeau said:


> That Kato was rough, I would feel bad giving that one back. I (knock on wood) don't ever chip anything that badly, barring the 'knock the yanagiba off the fish table, on to the floor, trying to catch it on the way down, cutting the **** out of myself, and chipping the knife anyway' incident. Mostly it's tiny less than a mm stuff from going too fast with too much to do. Maybe I'll pick up one for the next time.



No no, not too much 1 mm chips, much more rough- the blade is 180 mm. Bad resolution because of resize. ...
It was a real shock when i saw it.. My friend told me he has done nothing.. Would you believe?? 
Very uneven damage, some chips were very big. 
BTW- it's the one on the right. Which looks the most new . 
And rust... But that was easy. I repair easily even Honyaki blades, last gathering at JNS i made a new knife out of small broken Honyaki petty with missing 12-13 mm tip... 40 min inkl discussion. Btw- i used a synthetic JNS 300- it has impressed me.. Forgotten to buy... Bought again super- extra-ultra-mega finishers like Okudo Suita, Hakka Karasu, Nakayama Kiira extra fine... Should take this cheap green 300-er stone next time as well.


----------



## CoqaVin

andrey what did stone did you use for most of that


----------



## Dardeau

I borrowed a JNS 300 a while back, and it's been out of stock every time I've ordered since then. I want to buy one of those Itinomonn ajikiri for the few small fish I get at work, maybe a 300 is just the the thing to get free shipping. The thing about it is, I don't remember it being super fast, just around the speed of my Omura. How fast are the Shapton 500 and 220 compared to the JNS 300?

For those of you who aren't into super coarse synthetics, I apologize for the detour, but they go hand in hand with JNATS for me.


----------



## KimBronnum

JNS 300 gets the job done very effectivly IMO. Much more so than the Omura.


----------



## chinacats

Is the scratch size about what you'd expect on the 300? And since this is the thread about J-nats, what would be the best options for thinning quickly, cleanly, and most important naturally?


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## Dardeau

It's pretty similar to a 4-500 grit stone, but because it's natural it refines a little bit. It gets even really quickly, which is my favorite part. 

I don't think there is a natural thinning option, which is why I think low grit synthetics and JNATS go together so well. The Omura actually makes a good bridge between something overly aggressive like a DMT, quickly evening out the scratchy finish, and a medium coarse stone like an Ikarashi or any of the others.


----------



## Dardeau

Derp, thought you were asking on the Omura.


----------



## chinacats

Dardeau said:


> Derp, thought you were asking on the Omura.


I wasn't very clear, I was asking about the JNS 300 vs any real natural options for thinning/repair work.


----------



## Dardeau

You were clear I just am tired and missed it. I don't know of any good options for fast thinning naturals, but would love to hear about them.


----------



## Andrey V

Dardeau said:


> I borrowed a JNS 300 a while back, and it's been out of stock every time I've ordered since then. I want to buy one of those Itinomonn ajikiri for the few small fish I get at work, maybe a 300 is just the the thing to get free shipping. The thing about it is, I don't remember it being super fast, just around the speed of my Omura. How fast are the Shapton 500 and 220 compared to the JNS 300?
> 
> For those of you who aren't into super coarse synthetics, I apologize for the detour, but they go hand in hand with JNATS for me.



Not a problem, I understand you . 
Both Shaptons Glass( i underline- only Glass series, not regular ones) are faster, then JNS 300. 220 grit is too coarse and too aggressive to me, leaving real deep scratches, " eating" metal like a hungry beggar. I don't use it that often, frankly speaking.. 
For fast repair/start of sharpening 500-er pro ( 10 mm material instead of 5 mm) is a jewel. 
Reg 300-er JNS- can be you used some of previous versions ( as far as i know JNS has changed the stone- I don't know if Maksim delivered other versions to his clients or not. )
Anyhow Shapton is faster. JNS 300 is bigger .


----------



## Andrey V

Dardeau said:


> It's pretty similar to a 4-500 grit stone, but because it's natural it refines a little bit. It gets even really quickly, which is my favorite part.
> 
> I don't think there is a natural thinning option, which is why I think low grit synthetics and JNATS go together so well. The Omura actually makes a good bridge between something overly aggressive like a DMT, quickly evening out the scratchy finish, and a medium coarse stone like an Ikarashi or any of the others.



Exactly &#128077;&#128077;


----------



## Andrey V

KimBronnum said:


> JNS 300 gets the job done very effectivly IMO. Much more so than the Omura.



Agree. Completely. I don't like synthetic stones, but good coarse synthetics make the job just better and faster. Though if you have more time.... I would ( and i do) invest more time in refining on JNats. 
Rough job on synthetic- medium- fine on JNats.


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> andrey what did stone did you use for most of that



You mean repairing the knives from pictures above? 
Shaptons Glass 500. 
Repair. 
Kato has been repaired on Amakusa ( on a harder one) 
But for both the sharpening after repair works - Omura/Amakusa, Chu, Red Aoto/Ohira Suita/Nakayama Kiita.


----------



## Andrey V

Andrey V said:


> Not a problem, I understand you .
> Both Shaptons Glass( i underline- only Glass series, not regular ones) are faster, then JNS 300. 220 grit is too coarse and too aggressive to me, leaving real deep scratches, " eating" metal like a hungry beggar. I don't use it that often, frankly speaking..
> For fast repair/start of sharpening 500-er pro ( 10 mm material instead of 5 mm) is a jewel.
> Reg 300-er JNS- can be you used some of previous versions ( as far as i know JNS has changed the stone- I don't know if Maksim delivered other versions to his clients or not. )
> Anyhow Shapton is faster. JNS 300 is bigger .



Correction:!!!!!!
I used at JNS a green synthetic stone- i checked it- the JNS 300 is thin and grey, the stone i used to repair the broken Honyaki petty was green- I haven't ask which one was it- i have just used it and it was fast and good- so talking meanwhile with a friend i have managed to repair a broken Honyaki!!!!! on JNS800!! Nice . 
So guys, sorry for a mistake - to me this stone was good enough to be used for repair works. A green one. JNS 300 - the grey obe, as i see on the pictures- I haven't tried. 
Sorry again.. It means no need to take coarser stones!!! &#128540;&#128540;&#128540;.


----------



## Andrey V

my new very hard Ikarashi

i had to play a little bit with white balance etc, but only because it was impossible to show the real color- it's so nice, light blue/ greenish, very nice color indeed... Not the best stone in my life, but one of the most beautiful for sure. Better for stainless. .. Such a nice color...


----------



## CoqaVin

im going to replace my amakusa with a ikarashi one day


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> im going to replace my amakusa with a ikarashi one day



This one is even nicer then all the others i saw before.. Amazing color.. Smells differently. You know, all the stones smell , especially when wet. Ikarashi is different. Amakusa is very nice, but totally different. I would say, not to replace, but add as the next step. If to replace, then a Binsui- it's more or less same grit. Normal orange Amakusa is coarser. Good Ikarashi is denser, finer ( not much, but..) . To flatten it is a special joy . But i still like it- at least one more basement stone!


----------



## CoqaVin

sounds good andrey


----------



## Dardeau

I like mine enough to have pulled it back off BST.


----------



## maxim

It was JNS 300 Andrey  
It was green because of the mud and rust 



Andrey V said:


> Correction:!!!!!!
> I used at JNS a green synthetic stone- i checked it- the JNS 300 is thin and grey, the stone i used to repair the broken Honyaki petty was green- I haven't ask which one was it- i have just used it and it was fast and good- so talking meanwhile with a friend i have managed to repair a broken Honyaki!!!!! on JNS800!! Nice .
> So guys, sorry for a mistake - to me this stone was good enough to be used for repair works. A green one. JNS 300 - the grey obe, as i see on the pictures- I haven't tried.
> Sorry again.. It means no need to take coarser stones!!! &#128540;&#128540;&#128540;.


----------



## Andrey V

maxim said:


> It was JNS 300 Andrey
> It was green because of the mud and rust



Then ok, Maksim . 
It was dark ( under a lamp) , a lot of people, and a lot of questions from left & right- so the question of the color / grit wasn't that important . I checked the stone where someone has worked before. Important- it gave me great response for my needs at that time. I didn't want to use a wheel to repair that Honyaki petty, so, if you say 300, it's 300. Color ... So guys, that stone which Maksim has confirmed as JNS 300 was really good for it &#128526;&#128526;&#9996;&#65039;&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;!! So good, that i start to think why not to take it .....


----------



## Asteger

Yeah, I like the 300 too. 



Andrey V said:


> Amakusa is very nice, but totally different. I would say... If to replace, then a Binsui- it's more or less same grit. Normal orange Amakusa is coarser.



Yes, there are 2 general kinds of Amakusa, the orange/brown and the white. Orange/brown are supposed to be coarser, and the white a modest step up. When people talk of 'binsui' class stones, these are usually white Amakusa (although other stones can be called binsui too). 

Going from an orange/brown to an Ikarashi would be a reasonable step up, but from a white Amakusa (binsui) to Ikarashi, depending on the individual stone, might not be a big change. I've got 2 whites; one has those greenish lines and is coarser, and the other doesn't and is a bit finer and is getting pretty close to the Ikarashi.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Yeah, I like the 300 too.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there are 2 general kinds of Amakusa, the orange/brown and the white. Orange/brown are supposed to be coarser, and the white a modest step up. When people talk of 'binsui' class stones, these are usually white Amakusa (although other stones can be called binsui too).
> 
> Going from an orange/brown to an Ikarashi would be a reasonable step up, but from a white Amakusa (binsui) to Ikarashi, depending on the individual stone, might not be a big change. I've got 2 whites; one has those greenish lines and is coarser, and the other doesn't and is a bit finer and is getting pretty close to the Ikarashi.



Exactly what i could say, Asteger! Bravo
Totally same opinion. 
The finest binsui i have i very similar in grit range with ikarashi, though they still work differently. 
I would say that both work better on stainless or even great on powdered steel. 
But again, the incredible ikarashi color makes it so special...


----------



## vinster

Andrey V said:


> Exactly what i could say, Asteger! Bravo
> Totally same opinion.
> The finest binsui i have i very similar in grit range with ikarashi, though they still work differently.
> I would say that both work better on stainless or even great on powdered steel.
> But again, the incredible ikarashi color makes it so special...



I don't have too much to add here, but that I'm not particularly fond of the amakusa and binsui stones that I have tried. They tend to feel a bit too smooth and have been slow to cut. They work better with a nagura, but I'm not dedicated enough to use a nagura most of the time. 

I've tried a few ikarashi now, as well as a couple aizu-ish stones, an iyo-ish stone and some natsuya, and I prefer all to the amakusa or binsui. (I say -ish because I'm not 100% certain where they are from). The feel is different -- the ones I like have a little bit of bite and are generally faster cutting than the amakusa/binsui. The Iyo and Aizu are probably my two favorite mid-grit naturals. Ikarashi is a fine stone. They are fairly consistent in quality among the ones that I've tried. They are attractive because they are somewhat readily available, but you can do better if you try to look.


----------



## Dardeau

If you have a line on Aizu or Natsuya....


----------



## Andrey V

vinster said:


> I don't have too much to add here, but that I'm not particularly fond of the amakusa and binsui stones that I have tried. They tend to feel a bit too smooth and have been slow to cut. They work better with a nagura, but I'm not dedicated enough to use a nagura most of the time.
> 
> I've tried a few ikarashi now, as well as a couple aizu-ish stones, an iyo-ish stone and some natsuya, and I prefer all to the amakusa or binsui. (I say -ish because I'm not 100% certain where they are from). The feel is different -- the ones I like have a little bit of bite and are generally faster cutting than the amakusa/binsui. The Iyo and Aizu are probably my two favorite mid-grit naturals. Ikarashi is a fine stone. They are fairly consistent in quality among the ones that I've tried. They are attractive because they are somewhat readily available, but you can do better if you try to look.



Right as well. 
You know, i underline always: i'm not a biggest fan of coarse basic JNats, but.. If you take your time to find the good ones, it may be quite interesting. 
Reg Amakusa: i tried a lot- they are cheap stones , to me it was the main advantage of it . But finally found the really interesting one. It's coarse, not hard, even quite soft, I would say, quite consistent for an Amakusa. Impressive, anyway. Binsuis... My latest Iyo- haka is the best i tried out of this range. Finally found something . You call it mid range- to me an Aoto is a mid range, but ok. The best feature of these coarse ( to me  stones is: they do the job fast, but don't take too much metal off. In comparison to synthetic stones. This is positive.


----------



## Andrey V

Dardeau said:


> If you have a line on Aizu or Natsuya....



Yeah, it good enough to start a proper sharpening session!! &#128077;


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Exactly ... Totally same opinion. ... But again, the incredible ikarashi color makes it so special...



Yes, a bit of blue always looks good :sad0: 

(face chosen because it's blue, not because I'm sad)



vinster said:


> I'm not particularly fond of the amakusa and binsui stones that I have tried. They tend to feel a bit too smooth and have been slow to cut. ... I've tried a few ikarashi now, as well as a couple aizu-ish stones, an iyo-ish stone and some natsuya, and I prefer all to the amakusa or binsui. ... the ones I like have a little bit of bite and are generally faster cutting than the amakusa/binsui. The Iyo and Aizu are probably my two favorite mid-grit naturals. Ikarashi is a fine stone. They are fairly consistent in quality among the ones that I've tried. They are attractive because they are somewhat readily available, but you can do better if you try to look.



Agreed Ikarashi are pretty consistent, at least with the 3-4 I've tried. I have one, however, that has some darker spots and it's coarser and faster, so there is some variation.

Iyo - I don't really know the details, but there is variation with these, and it might resemble Amakusa in a way, with red stones being coarser and white finer. (Redishness for eg indicates iron, and sometime more coarseness - or so the idea goes) There are cheap Iyo out there, and maybe some junk Iyo too. The completely white Iyo I have (wasn't cheap; one of my few JNS stones) is hard and resembles a Tajima, for eg. I think it was stones like these that, historically, were the original Binui before depletion way back when.

If interested in white Amakusa, try one with small green lines. The one I have like this (Vinh: it's the vintage one) does cut well. I think they're known for being better.


----------



## WillC

I guess Im in the club now!
Takashima from Maxim at the Gathering, finding it a very versatile stone and enjoying using it.:biggrin:


----------



## Andrey V

WillC said:


> I guess Im in the club now!
> Takashima from Maxim at the Gathering, finding it a very versatile stone and enjoying using it.:biggrin:



Oh hi, Will, welcome to the club!! Next time try some other stones as well . Nice chisel indeed. Is it convenient enough to hold? The round handle seems to tend to turn in the hand while working, or am i totally wrong??


----------



## WillC

Cant really afford to mess about Andrethis stone gets the job done. Has a little less buttery feel to stones that would be pure luxury, and yes now I have a taste.
Of course your wrong, the combination of round and choking up on the angular faces gives fantastic control, like something you can only imagine in your wildest dreams. I know which I would choose for the most delicate snip. Or cerebral tap. Im a little drunk.


----------



## Twistington

WillC said:


> Cant really afford to mess about Andrethis stone gets the job done. Has a little less buttery feel to stones that would be pure luxury, and yes now I have a taste.
> Of course your wrong, the combination of round and choking up on the angular faces gives fantastic control, like something you can only imagine in your wildest dreams. I know which I would choose for the most delicate snip. Or cerebral tap. Im a little drunk.



At 06:00 you are not just "a little drunk".


----------



## Andrey V

WillC said:


> Cant really afford to mess about Andrethis stone gets the job done. Has a little less buttery feel to stones that would be pure luxury, and yes now I have a taste.
> Of course your wrong, the combination of round and choking up on the angular faces gives fantastic control, like something you can only imagine in your wildest dreams. I know which I would choose for the most delicate snip. Or cerebral tap. Im a little drunk.



I know you managed to get the full grip control, Will , i just wanted to "involve "you into discussion &#128540;&#128540;. No man, really, looks cool. Bring it next time, will'll give it a nice 20 hands- test- drive &#128526;&#128526;&#9996;&#65039;&#128077;&#128077;&#128077; cheers &#127863;&#127863;&#127863;!!!


----------



## Asteger

WillC said:


> Takashima ... very versatile stone and enjoying using it.:biggrin:



Maybe I got lucky with the one I have, as it's the only I've tried, but prob still my fav finisher. Enjoy


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Maybe I got lucky with the one I have, as it's the only I've tried, but prob still my fav finisher. Enjoy



Strange.. I've tried many Takashima, i have 3, from very hard to very soft, but I consider them to be just ok, hardly to compare with good Ohiras , Okudos ( I don't even mention Nakayamas)....
Takashima is a very easy stone normally, a very recognizable one. Giving very similar slurry, smelling almost the same. Because of it's medium ( medium in fine range) finesse creates a hazy finish, semi- mirror at max. I place Takashima in my internal range in one group with Hakka. I mean " regular" Hakka, quite soft, 2,5 lv, like this. Though the stones are different, but... The Mother Nature has created enough variety to find the stone matching your personal demands. F.ex, i bought from JNS a very unique Hakka Karasu full size, a real jewel, a very hard one, as i like. This Hakka leaves a very fine polished edge.. It's a real pleasure to work on it. But anyhow: when it comes to great Okudos or Nakayamas...it's another level of everything. The only negative point i've noticed about them is... THE PRICE.. &#128540;&#128540;&#128576;


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Strange.. I've tried many Takashima, i have 3, from very hard to very soft, but I consider them to be just ok, hardly to compare with good Ohiras , Okudos ( I don't even mention Nakayamas)....... I place Takashima in my internal range in one group with Hakka. I mean " regular" Hakka, quite soft, 2,5 lv, like this. Though the stones are different, but... The Mother Nature has created enough variety to find the stone matching your personal demands. ... anyhow: when it comes to great Okudos or Nakayamas...it's another level of everything. The only negative point i've noticed about them is... THE PRICE.. &#55357;&#56860;&#55357;&#56860;&#55357;&#56896;



Yes, of course THE PRICE. At the moment I only have 1 or 2 'expensive' stones as I sold off my more expensive ones a while ago. Of course, it doesn't always happen that stones costing 3x others are better, too. Another collector I know, who amassed dozens of finishers - some very expensive - claims his fav 2 are still a cheapo from Metalmaster and another costing around $300 from Japan. Anyway, who knows, maybe in the future I'll splurge again.

As for 'normal' Takashima/Hakka, yes, sure they're quite similar, probably with Takashima presenting better value for $, and sometime you get lucky and get an unusually good stone or one that really suits the user, and I think mine is one of those. I compared it to 3 Hakka I had before, but still have the Takashima and sold off the Hakka.


----------



## Andrey V

All this is a normal overconsumption. 
Normally nobody needs so much, or such variety. But as far you can afford it and it thrills you, it works. So , bigger boys- bigger toys &#128540;&#9996;&#65039;


----------



## Andrey V

Some new stuff arrived today &#128540;&#9996;&#65039;

a pretty good size Asano Botan Nagura, very clean one

- a very nice clean square Ohira Renge Suita- very cool stone, i really love Ohira Suita, it's purple Renge is so unique..

- one more jewel in my Tennen Toishi House- it's Majesty Nakayama Maruka, the second from left. Some of my very cool Nakayamas: these 4 are REALLY great. Some bit hard, some softer, but.. The smell, the feeling is so unlike other stones.. So unique..

same blood! It's visible , dry or wet


----------



## Asteger

:spin chair: Okay, that's it. I'm headed to Petersburg.


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr

Asteger said:


> :spin chair: Okay, that's it. I'm headed to Petersburg.


Welcome! 
Together we would plot a plan of intervention to Moscow and getting some of those stones into our hands. Mua-hah-haha


----------



## Andrey V

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Welcome!
> Together we would plot a plan of intervention to Moscow and getting some of those stones into our hands. Mua-hah-haha



Big Brother's waiting for you..&#128526;&#128298;&#128064;&#128299;&#128163;


----------



## Asteger

icanhaschzbrgr said:


> Welcome! Together we would plot a plan of intervention to Moscow and getting some of those stones





Andrey V said:


> Big Brother's waiting for you..


Now I'm confused. I thought Andrey Awasedo V was in Petersburg, but he's in Moscow? But no problem. If we had to attack, his knives would be overly polished. We'd cut him apart with our toothier edges. :nunchucks:


----------



## Asteger

Okay, too many fantastic stone photos around here from Andrey Awasedo, and so I thought I should put one of my own up. Here goes...

The challenge: guess the stone if you can.... It's a medium natural and fine enough to finish knives, I would say. It's an important stone going back in time but is quite rare, and not well known here if at all, meaning that I'm very lucky to have it. The source mine has been closed for decades. This particular one is _huge_ too.




[/URL][/IMG]


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Okay, too many fantastic stone photos around here from Andrey Awasedo, and so I thought I should put one of my own up. Here goes...
> 
> The challenge: guess the stone if you can.... It's a medium natural and fine enough to finish knives, I would say. It's an important stone going back in time but is quite rare, and not well known here if at all, meaning that I'm very lucky to have it. The source mine has been closed for decades. This particular one is _huge_ too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]



He he
It's definitely a lighter!! Bingo!!
Reg the small stone in the background of the photo- the black dots & yellowish parts look like Natsuya, but i'm not sure. It's not Awasedo.. &#128526;&#128526;&#128540;&#9996;&#65039;


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> He he It's definitely a lighter!! Bingo!! Reg the small stone in the background of the photo- the black dots & yellowish parts look like Natsuya, but i'm not sure. It's not Awasedo.. &#55357;&#56846;&#55357;&#56846;&#55357;&#56860;&#9996;&#65039;



Hohoho, thanks for the answer, AV. :razz: 
But no, no ... Well, ... yes. That is a lighter (purple, Made in China, and not Honyama at all). However, Natsuya ... no, not close, aside from in a general sense geographically as these were mined in N. Honshu. Natsuya, for their part are on the coarse end of medium nakato, and this one isn't; it could follow a Natsuya as the 3rd stone in a progression which started with a coarse arato. The appearance of Natsuya ranges from deep orange to buttery yellow. (Isn't yours on the yellow end?) The stone in my photo is basically a blue stone, with some orange and red renge (not black dots). Very cool in person. Oh, and don't call my stone small.  This one is nearly 10cm wide and 3kg!


----------



## Asteger

... About Natsuya, in case you or others haven't seen it, here's the best photo out there, showing 3 general types. The lighter ones can be light orange like here or even, as I said, buttery, and these tend to be the toratogi (striped). Another type has white spots. Another is fairly uniform. I've got one that's both striped and spotted, another that's marbled and deep orange, and another that's uniform. Photo:


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Hohoho, thanks for the answer, AV. :razz:
> But no, no ... Well, ... yes. That is a lighter (purple, Made in China, and not Honyama at all). However, Natsuya ... no, not close, aside from in a general sense geographically as these were mined in N. Honshu. Natsuya, for their part are on the coarse end of medium nakato, and this one isn't; it could follow a Natsuya as the 3rd stone in a progression which started with a coarse arato. The appearance of Natsuya ranges from deep orange to buttery yellow. (Isn't yours on the yellow end?) The stone in my photo is basically a blue stone, with some orange and red renge (not black dots). Very cool in person. Oh, and don't call my stone small.  This one is nearly 10cm wide and 3kg!



I bet your pardon, but considering a huge lighter as a star posing on a " small" stone in a background..&#128526;&#128526;&#128526;&#128526;&#128540;&#128540;&#128540;&#128540;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;
I agree, I wouldn't consider it to be Honyama lighter!  
Nice blue -grayish brick indeed&#128077;&#128077; i told Natsuya just to start the discussion. Never saw such one. Looks promising


----------



## Andrey V

And tell us, Asteger, what's this. 
Do you use it to press the choucrout/Sauerkraut??


----------



## Asteger

Andrey, since you're interested I might have 1 or 2 nakayama kiita lighters for you. As for my 'nice brick' I will wait. I don't think so, but maybe I'll get 1 or 2 more guesses.


----------



## Andrey V

BTW-Merry Christmas, guys!!! &#127876;&#127876;&#127876;&#127876;&#127881;&#127881;&#127863;&#127863;&#127873;&#127873;&#9924;&#65039;


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Andrey, since you're interested I might have 1 or 2 nakayama kiita lighters for you. As for my 'nice brick' I will wait. I don't think so, but maybe I'll get 1 or 2 more guesses.



Okay  
Let's wait. Intriguing ..&#128064;&#128064;&#128064;


----------



## vinster

Asteger said:


> Okay, too many fantastic stone photos around here from Andrey Awasedo, and so I thought I should put one of my own up. Here goes...
> 
> The challenge: guess the stone if you can.... It's a medium natural and fine enough to finish knives, I would say. It's an important stone going back in time but is quite rare, and not well known here if at all, meaning that I'm very lucky to have it. The source mine has been closed for decades. This particular one is _huge_ too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL][/IMG]



Aizu?!??! I generally don't like stones with holes as in the surface of that stone.... which was one of my knocks on the binsui, amakusa, and natsuya.


----------



## designdog

Happy holidays! Here is a quiz: if you had access to the following stones, given equal size, quality, price (not realistic, I know) to finish your knives, following Takishima (for single bevel) and Yaginoshima (for double bevel), which would you choose:

Hakka
Hideriyama
Ozuku.

You only get one vote! Please explain your choice, and advocate its selection!

Thanks...


----------



## dream816

In my case, Takishima is my pre-polisher and I have hakka and hideriyama as the next progression stones but no Ozuku. It turns out that my hideriyama provides a finer finish than my hakka. So in my case, I will finish my knife with the hideriyama. Nice hazy and consistent finish.

so I think it really depends on the specific stones you have.


----------



## designdog

So, could you go from Takishima to Hideriyama, without the Hakka? I can't get both!

Thanks...


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Okay  Let's wait. Intriguing ..&#55357;&#56384;&#55357;&#56384;&#55357;&#56384;





vinster said:


> Aizu?!??!



Nope. 2nd guess, but much closer than the first....

It's a Kaisei, which has also been called Kazama. I think they came in blue or red, and this one combines the both. 

I thought this one would be good for guessing as 'kaisei' seems well-known enough, or should be, as the 3rd stone in the sword progression. Also, there are a limited number of blue stones out there, and this is one of the few (along with Aizu & Ikarashi, though I suspect other ultra-obscure ones exist too). 

Quality is great, which is what I heard about Kaisei before, and so far it's probably going to be my fav of the other blues. Kaisei/Kazama should follow the arato and binsui in the progression, and I've read that Aizu was considered its substitute and, if not, then Ikarashi. 



vinster said:


> I generally don't like stones with holes as in the surface of that stone.... which was one of my knocks on the binsui, amakusa, and natsuya.



'Binsui' usually are white Amakusa, and so no surprise that they can be 'holey' just like the red or 'toratogi' striped versions of Amakusa. I think you're mistaken on Natsuya, though. Maybe thinking of Amakusa? I've never seen any with holes, and I've handled a few myself. At any rate, looks-wise holes aren't desirable, but depending on the stone I think they can be a non-issue and not effect sharpening. Problem of course is if pieces snap off and harder bits scratch during sharpening, which you wouldn't want.


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> Happy holidays! Here is a quiz: if you had access to the following stones, given equal size, quality, price (not realistic, I know) to finish your knives, following Takishima (for single bevel) and Yaginoshima (for double bevel), which would you choose: Hakka, Hideriyama, Ozuku. You only get one vote! Please explain your choice, and advocate its selection! Thanks...



Well, usual Hakka are pretty similar to usual Takashima, and so I'd say if you've already used the Takashima then skip the Hakka. (I sold my Hakkas and kept a Takashima.) As for Hideriyama, if it's a tomae then it's going to be similar to Hakka and Takashima - on the softer side, muddy - except that Hideriyama are kind of known for having harder silicon bits that def can give you some teeth on your blade but will not leave a uniform finish. (It'll probably end up scratchy, as from a coarser stone, but also inconsistent unless you really control it.) For me, I'd avoid the Hideriyama. (You sometimes also see Hideriyama suita around, and there are other types of Hakka and Takashima; you haven't said which types you have.)

As for Ozuku, these should be significantly harder. However, if you've already used a Yaginoshima - which should be similarly hard and fine, and have similar uses to Ozuku (good for razors for eg; I've got one like this) - then I'd say you don't need an Ozuku either. 

So my vote... For the 1-bevel, often people finish at lower coarseness than Takashima already and so would I but, if forced, of those 3 I'd do Hakka but not because it's needed. For 2-bevel, to me a Yaginoshima is already too fine - it's a knife, not a razor right? - and might have a scuffy finish after using it because it's hard, so I'd drop down to the somewhat coarser Hakka again to even out the finish and to leave a less polished edge.


----------



## designdog

Good input! I seem to want to keep sharpening up the grit ladder. I also have a very nice Nakayama Suita that I have used after the Takashima. I just felt that a Hakka would be a good stone to end with, without the uber polish of Nakayama, Okudo, Ohira...


----------



## designdog

Oh, the Takashima is a Suita...


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> Oh, the Takashima is a Suita...



Still, some suita are finer and some really aren't that fine at all. I don't know with Takashima. The tomae Takashima are the ones most people have, and me too. So hard to say.

Anyway, if I respond to this, my taste is not to go too fine unless you want to polish and make things look pretty, but to have a less practical and fairly temporary edge as the result. Grit-wise, I'm happy up to half of 10k, or less. So my response reflects this.

You can see if someone like Andrey Awasedo or Vinster chimes in. They're both fine finisher nuts.

You didn't mention that you were buying. So, in that case, I'd say you should play it safe and avoid Hideriyama, although they would def be on the inexpensive end compared to the other two, and some people seem to like them. With Ozuku, they can get expensive, and there are other hard/fine finisher options (and you already have the Yaginoshima, which should be similar, if not from as prestigious a mine). Hakka are nice, but I think some are just okay and others good, and at around $500+ if you buy from JNS (with Hakka, I don't know of another source) they're too expensive I think. Why only these 3? Keep your options open.


----------



## vinster

designdog said:


> Happy holidays! Here is a quiz: if you had access to the following stones, given equal size, quality, price (not realistic, I know) to finish your knives, following Takishima (for single bevel) and Yaginoshima (for double bevel), which would you choose:
> 
> Hakka
> Hideriyama
> Ozuku.
> 
> You only get one vote! Please explain your choice, and advocate its selection!
> 
> Thanks...



As others have suggested, it's really impossible to make a recommendation based on the mine name alone. How do you define equal "quality"? in fineness? hardness? speed of cutting? purity (lack of lines/inclusions/etc)? I've tried samples from each of the three listed mines and have experienced a spectrum of different behaving stones. Best would be to try to out for yourself, otherwise lean on the feedback from someone you know and trust.

Generally speaking, most stones from ozuku are quite fine and hard. There are occasional softer ones, but I don't find ozuku to be particularly fast cutting, which is among my preferred traits.

All of the Hakka I've tried are on the soft and muddy side. Some have been faster cutting than others. They aren't super fine, but leave a nice even polish. I'd say similar to takashima, with the takashima stones I've tried being a bit more coarse.

Hideriyama is sort of similar to hakka and takashima. Most are on the soft and muddy side, but I've used some that are harder and finer (suita).

If I could only pick one, I'd go with the hakka. I have a love affair with the hakka. They are pricey, but I've yet to find a compelling substitute.

On another note, one of my favorite stones is a reddish shobu (I think). It's not particularly hard, but very fine and leaves a beautiful finish on single bevels and wide bevels.


----------



## Andrey V

vinster said:


> As others have suggested, it's really impossible to make a recommendation based on the mine name alone. How do you define equal "quality"? in fineness? hardness? speed of cutting? purity (lack of lines/inclusions/etc)? I've tried samples from each of the three listed mines and have experienced a spectrum of different behaving stones. Best would be to try to out for yourself, otherwise lean on the feedback from someone you know and trust.
> 
> Generally speaking, most stones from ozuku are quite fine and hard. There are occasional softer ones, but I don't find ozuku to be particularly fast cutting, which is among my preferred traits.
> 
> All of the Hakka I've tried are on the soft and muddy side. Some have been faster cutting than others. They aren't super fine, but leave a nice even polish. I'd say similar to takashima, with the takashima stones I've tried being a bit more coarse.
> 
> Hideriyama is sort of similar to hakka and takashima. Most are on the soft and muddy side, but I've used some that are harder and finer (suita).
> 
> If I could only pick one, I'd go with the hakka. I have a love affair with the hakka. They are pricey, but I've yet to find a compelling substitute.
> 
> On another note, one of my favorite stones is a reddish shobu (I think). It's not particularly hard, but very fine and leaves a beautiful finish on single bevels and wide bevels.



Let me add my two cents, guys . 
Agree with vinster. Almost
It's too hard to say something just using the mountain / quarry name. 
F.ex i have a wonderful Yaginoshima Suita, it's very good for ss-steels, and it is fine&hard. Much better then any Takashima i tried. It can be the next stone after Takashima or Hakka. 
But- I don't like Hakka at all- it means that everyone can have it's own preferences. To me a good Takashima ( agree with Asteger, they are mostly from Tomae layer) is even better/ similar in action. Anyway- i'm not a fan wether of Hakka, nor Takashima. Though my rare extra fine/hard Hakka Karasu is something... As all the other boys I wouldn't discuss Hideriyama unless you tried one and it seemed to be a star. The reason why has been well described here already. 
Ozuku: well, a mine tends to be known for harder finer stones used mostly to finish the razors rather then knives. I tried many, inkl rare Ozuku Suitas. Just not my stones: Okudo gives hard but better stones, there are many cheaper alternatives like Wakasa etc. So I personally don't see any reason why. 
There are really so many alternatives in great finishers.. Why to limit yourself?? 
Agree with Vinster reg red Shobu Tomae- i have 1 full brick- it's amazing, really good. And still quite affordable! 
So good luck on this field  &#128077;&#128077;!


----------



## designdog

Sounds like a consensus with red shobu tomae. Where to get one?

Oh, and Merry Christmas, all!


----------



## Andrey V

Takeshi, Aframes
He has some great Shobu from time to time


----------



## designdog

Thanks, Andrey. I had already sent Takeshita an email  just missed out on a Shige from him some days ago...


----------



## Asteger

vinster said:


> On another note, one of my favorite stones is a reddish shobu (I think). It's not particularly hard, but very fine and leaves a beautiful finish on single bevels and wide bevels.





Andrey V said:


> Agree with Vinster reg red Shobu Tomae- i have 1 full brick- it's amazing, really good. And still quite affordable!



I like these too, and have a couple. 

Just a note that these aren't necessarily red and aren't called that, except maybe by us. 'Aka' is red. Iromono Shobu are usually a mix of colours, from dark brown to reddish-brownish, even almost purplish, to olive green and softer kiita. 'Iromono' means they're colourful, but not necessarily red.

... Just checked Aframes and he has a nice-looking big one with the price to match, and a few small or oddly shaped. His initial 2 pictures of the big one are quite dark and this makes it look redder (must sell better like this) but if you scroll and check the other shots the colours are a bit more conventional, though it's still a nice looking specimen. As usual, the overall general colour you get with most finishers and esp with tomae is a kind of brown.


----------



## designdog

Thanks, Andrey. I won't be buying anything over $400, though that one looks nice.

This is what is confusing: there are probably 10 other Shobu stones on his site. How to know what is what?


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Thanks, Andrey. I won't be buying anything over $400, though that one looks nice.
> 
> This is what is confusing: there are probably 10 other Shobu stones on his site. How to know what is what?



Check Aframes asap- Takeshi has a bunch of new stones, very interesting Yaginoshima Suitas, btw! 
And a cheap ( under 400$) Nakayama Kiita. 
Reg other Shobu Iromono- we call it red, but they aren't red, sure. Reddish, a mix of brown , reddish, yellowish etc.


----------



## CoqaVin

what grit around is the shobu iromono, I have a regualar shobu but it is hard as heck, and better suited for razors


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> what grit around is the shobu iromono, I have a regualar shobu but it is hard as heck, and better suited for razors



Mine is ca 3,5 lv( if to use the range of 5 points). 
Suites the knives. Very good indeed . Grit.. Ca 7000. If to sharpen just with the weight of the knife-higher
You mean maybe Shobudani razor type- it's really hard and is suitable only for razors


----------



## designdog

So, this is the one I just bought

Shobu Iromono Natural Whetstone 1076g (2Lb.6.0oz. )

206mmX50mmX41mm for final sharpening for razor or very fine grit sharpening for high carbon steel blade I have got this Shobu from one of the whetstone company in Kyoto.

The company used to mine Shobu (it was one of them, I think that Shobu had been mined by more than one company. There were more than one ore port owned by more than one company) and the other name mines.

Shoubu-dani is the original mine to yield high quality Japanese sword sharpening whetstone in Kyoto, and the mine run out the production of the ore, and moved to the other mines, so Shobu-dani used to have really great final finish whetstones.

It is moderate hardness in fine grit whetstone (not too hard and not too soft), and it produces very good amount of black slurry quickly. It has very gently touch, when I sharpen the blade, and I felt little elasticity from the sharpening surface, so it is easy to work with. It should be good enough amount of slurry, so it does not need Tomo Nagura or a device that produces slurry.

Hardness--------- 8.7

(Scale; 1 to 10, 1-3 is very soft muddy rough grit whetstone 3-6 is soft medium grit whetstone, 6-8 is hard medium grit whetstone; 8-10 is fine grit whetstone)

Particle Size-------------- 8.9

(Scale; 1 to 10, 1-3 give deep scratch marks to the steel, 3-5 is delete the 1-3 scratches, 5-8 makes the steel cloudy, 8-10 makes the steel semi-mirror finish or mirror finish)


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> Thanks, Andrey.



Welcome, though I think you're confusing me with someone else. Andrey's the one with the Russian accent. :groucho:



designdog said:


> So, this is the one I just bought Shobu Iromono Natural Whetstone 1076g (2Lb.6.0oz. ) ...



The weight is okay and other ratings pretty normal, so sounds like it should be a good one. Enjoy


----------



## chinacats

Just starting to get used to my new naturals and have to say that this seems almost like cheating. I've not used them to thin or clean up from thinning yet, but for sharpening my mind has been blown. It's insanely easy to raise a burr and even more insane how easy it is to get rid of one--am I missing something here (meaning why would anyone use anything else)? :biggrin:

BTW, using fairly inexpensive stones at that--Binsui and Takashima both from Maxim.


----------



## Asteger

chinacats said:


> Just starting to get used to my new naturals and have to say that this seems almost like cheating. I've not used them to thin or clean up from thinning yet, but for sharpening my mind has been blown. It's insanely easy to raise a burr and even more insane how easy it is to get rid of one--am I missing something here (meaning why would anyone use anything else)? :biggrin: BTW, using fairly inexpensive stones at that--Binsui and Takashima both from Maxim.



Glad you like 'em. Sounds like you've chosen well too and got good stones. White Amakusa (binsui) are on the cheap end and hit-and-miss, but if you've got a good one it's certainly a good stone and a good buy. I've got one too. They dish more than naturals normally do, but nothing close to what happens with synths. As said before, I like my Takashima too. 

Funny you should talk about 'cheating' with naturals. I hardly touch my synths, but have lately to do comparisons so that I could describe a few naturals that I might sell. (People always think of grit and want to know this.) Anyway, your experience was a bit of the reverse of mine, as I only have a few synths and I'm not that accustomed to them. Two reactions: first, that wow these are easy to use, almost like you could sharpen blindfolded, and fast too - but they seemed too simple, there didn't seem to be any challenge, and to me the slurry was strange because I'm used to slurry breaking down; and, second, that they dished like crazy and I thought it must be annoying to use them all the time and have to flatten every time. In the end both are good of course, and it was interesting to pull out the synths for a change. (Was using Chosera and JNS for what it's worth.)


----------



## panda

Chinacats, you see now why when I first tried one I never looked back? The better your technique gets the edge retention becomes longer than synths too. Makes no sense but it does.


----------



## Andrey V

panda said:


> Chinacats, you see now why when I first tried one I never looked back? The better your technique gets the edge retention becomes longer than synths too. Makes no sense but it does.



Don't forget the most important aspect: the meditation!!....&#128526;&#128526; 
The better the sharpening technique is, the more fun it brings&#128077;&#128077;!!


----------



## Asteger




----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


>



Finally i see you!! &#128064;&#128064;&#128540;&#9996;&#65039;


----------



## Asteger

Thought I'd share this. Not many of these around, and this is one of the nicest I've seen. New Natsuya.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Thought I'd share this. Not many of these around, and this is one of the nicest I've seen. New Natsuya.



For sale??


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Nope. 2nd guess, but much closer than the first....
> 
> It's a Kaisei, which has also been called Kazama. I think they came in blue or red, and this one combines the both.
> 
> I thought this one would be good for guessing as 'kaisei' seems well-known enough, or should be, as the 3rd stone in the sword progression. Also, there are a limited number of blue stones out there, and this is one of the few (along with Aizu & Ikarashi, though I suspect other ultra-obscure ones exist too).
> 
> Quality is great, which is what I heard about Kaisei before, and so far it's probably going to be my fav of the other blues. Kaisei/Kazama should follow the arato and binsui in the progression, and I've read that Aizu was considered its substitute and, if not, then Ikarashi.
> 
> 
> 
> 'Binsui' usually are white Amakusa, and so no surprise that they can be 'holey' just like the red or 'toratogi' striped versions of Amakusa. I think you're mistaken on Natsuya, though. Maybe thinking of Amakusa? I've never seen any with holes, and I've handled a few myself. At any rate, looks-wise holes aren't desirable, but depending on the stone I think they can be a non-issue and not effect sharpening. Problem of course is if pieces snap off and harder bits scratch during sharpening, which you wouldn't want.



I should have tried with Kaisei name.... This this the only stone from the range i never saw before.. ( i have some books about sword sharpening. Black&white pictures... ). I would try it.. But I don't have it.. You have it!


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> For sale??



Nope. :groucho: I like the stripes, but now I might try sell another. Hard to decide. 



Andrey V said:


> I should have tried with Kaisei name.... This this the only stone from the range i never saw before.. ( i have some books about sword sharpening. Black&white pictures... ). I would try it.. But I don't have it.. You have it!



Yeah, that's why I thought 'Kaisei' could be guessed. Oh well, next time you will win my guess-the-stone challenge with another stone.

Maybe you haven't tried this one - not a surprise, maybe only sword sharpeners have them, and really seem rare - but Aizu were/are a substitute and pretty similar I think, fitting between binsui & chu nagura.


----------



## panda

cheeeeeeze


----------



## Asteger

Okay, I shouldn't brag, but here's another recent acquisition. No stripes, a little soft and slow, but completely uniform, a good size, and tasty to boot.


----------



## panda

dont even need to lacquer it, already comes with skin! flatten with a knife.


----------



## Andrey V

panda said:


> dont even need to lacquer it, already comes with skin! flatten with a knife.



Remark: flatten with the dull rounded knife!


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Remark: flatten with the dull rounded knife!



Yeah. Made a mistake using my Atoma. Got all gummed up.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Yeah. Made a mistake using my Atoma. Got all gummed up.



Put some bread on, microwave oven, flip it, so you'll get the chance to clean it! &#128540;&#128540;&#128591;
Nice Kiita color indeed &#128526;&#128526;&#9996;&#65039;!


----------



## CoqaVin

if you're going to sell your other Natsuya, FIRST IN LINE!irate1:


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> if you're going to sell your other Natsuya, FIRST IN LINE!irate1:



Check my previous mail- you should be the SECOND IN LINE! &#128540;&#128540;


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## CoqaVin

ahhh crap


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> ahhh crap



Not yet. 
Who knows if Asteger will sell it &#128540;&#128576;&#128576;


----------



## designdog

In my typical mode of frenzied acquisition, I find myself with several Jnats, many certainly performing similar roles. So I ask for guidance here:

I now have some good Aoto, including one very good one. Then I have a lot of "polishing" stones, including Takashima, Hakka, Yaginoshima, Hideriyama, Shobu, Nakayama. My fear is that I get the order mixed up, and follow the Aoto with the wrong stone.

So, which to follow Aoto? For example, I think I have a good kasumi finish progression: JNS800, Aoto, Takashima, Hakka, Nakayama. But what about double bevel?

If there are other stones better suited to follow Aoto, what are they?

Thanks!


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> I now have some good Aoto, including one very good one. Then I have a lot of "polishing" stones, including Takashima, Hakka, Yaginoshima, Hideriyama, Shobu, Nakayama. My fear is that I get the order mixed up, and follow the Aoto with the wrong stone. So, which to follow Aoto? For example, I think I have a good kasumi finish progression: JNS800, Aoto, Takashima, Hakka, Nakayama. But what about double bevel? If there are other stones better suited to follow Aoto, what are they? Thanks!



No problem with playing around with them and finding out that way!

But, for example, with JNS800, Aoto, Takashima, Hakka, Nakayama I would instead say JNS800, Aoto, Takashima/Hakka, Nakayama. Takashima and Hakka were virtually the same for me, so much that I sold my Hakka (more than one). However, your Takashima is a suita, isn't it? Could be different.

A normal Hideriyama is probably similar to Takashima/Hakka too. Shobu, Nakayama, Yaginoshima should all be finer than these.

Basically, aside from Aoto and Saeki and Monzen, any other stones from Kyoto are going to be finishers and finer than this first group, if this helps. Thinking of others to follow an aoto but maybe not too hard or fine, an ohira suita (as you said you're after) or maybe an Aiiwatani or an Ashiya or suitable Nakayama ...


----------



## designdog

Asteger, thanks. Kind of what I thought - two categories:

*Medium finishers:* Takashima, Hakka, Hideriyama
*Fine finishers:* Yaginoshima, Shobu, Nakayama.
(Dont use any from the same group at the same session.)

The Takashima was claimed to be a suita, bought originally from Maxsim himself, I believe. Big, lovely stone that produces a lot of slurry. Better for kasumi, I think.

Ohira Suita is more of a fine finisher, is it not? Also the Okudo Suita and the Shinden Suita, other stones of interest.

BTW, while I think I know what Suita means (a strata of a mine somewhere?) what does the appellation mean when added to a particular stone in terms of performance?

Finally, the Aiiwatani and Ashiya are but shades in the ether of the internet  and find little on either...


----------



## Asteger

Aiiwatani seem to appear in small numbers in Japan, and more recently a little on JNS. They seem to be similar to Takashima and the mines are neighbours, but if prices go up they might not be the same deal. I've heard that a well-known maker (at least well-known on KKF) uses these to finish. However, I don't mean that to sound dramatic, just that they can be good stones too. Ashiya - Also from nearby the above two and good, I hear. They seem rare. However, no one knows until they try the stones, if you can tell! Stones like this can work well with knives.

Suitas - people sometimes quote the translation of the layer name which is 'nest plate'. Probably doesn't mean much, but if you think about it then it could mean the layer with loads of holes, or nests, and that's what it usually is - small holes in the stone in that particular layer which, when sharpening, can cause things to go faster. Imagine extra abrasion because of the holes, I guess. (There are also suita-layer stones that don't have 'su' or holes too.) Suita are expensive because they're popular for their speed, and so are popular for real sharpeners, tool sharpeners in Japan mostly, but maybe often also because good ones look better than normal brown finishers and are also more collectable. There are some people around here who've owned more than a dozen suita (not me) but I'd say they vary widely in fineness. To me, not too fine is oten great for knives and some suita are like this, and they can give the right slurry so that you can get a nice easy finish. Another thing causing high prices is that there are relatively few stones than could be minded from these layers. Tomae, for example, produce much more. 

Okudo & Shinden - traditionally well-regarded, but pretty inaccessible to get great quality. You'd have to pay a bundle.

Perhaps a couple others will chime in. Not many people write here, but there are a few with some finisher experience for sure.


----------



## CoqaVin

I just need a better finisher something after the AOTO for my 270 Kiri that I use a Yani/Suji type knife b/c its so flat and excels at that


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Aiiwatani seem to appear in small numbers in Japan, and more recently a little on JNS. They seem to be similar to Takashima and the mines are neighbours, but if prices go up they might not be the same deal. I've heard that a well-known maker (at least well-known on KKF) uses these to finish. However, I don't mean that to sound dramatic, just that they can be good stones too. Ashiya - Also from nearby the above two and good, I hear. They seem rare. However, no one knows until they try the stones, if you can tell! Stones like this can work well with knives.
> 
> Suitas - people sometimes quote the translation of the layer name which is 'nest plate'. Probably doesn't mean much, but if you think about it then it could mean the layer with loads of holes, or nests, and that's what it usually is - small holes in the stone in that particular layer which, when sharpening, can cause things to go faster. Imagine extra abrasion because of the holes, I guess. (There are also suita-layer stones that don't have 'su' or holes too.) Suita are expensive because they're popular for their speed, and so are popular for real sharpeners, tool sharpeners in Japan mostly, but maybe often also because good ones look better than normal brown finishers and are also more collectable. There are some people around here who've owned more than a dozen suita (not me) but I'd say they vary widely in fineness. To me, not too fine is oten great for knives and some suita are like this, and they can give the right slurry so that you can get a nice easy finish. Another thing causing high prices is that there are relatively few stones than could be minded from these layers. Tomae, for example, produce much more.
> 
> Okudo & Shinden - traditionally well-regarded, but pretty inaccessible to get great quality. You'd have to pay a bundle.
> 
> Perhaps a couple others will chime in. Not many people write here, but there are a few with some finisher experience for sure.



As you know, i have a good range of great finishers, and have tested a lot as well. 
I have many Suitas ( Shinden-Okudo-Yaginoshima--Nakayama-Ohira etc). Sunashi as well. They can be ( and are) definitely different, after all in terms of matching different stills( so called a perfect marriage). 
The good Suitas are very fast and very efficient. My favorite is a TOP Ohira Suita. I have a bunch of Ohiras ( almost all type of the layers in good qualities) but this one.... 
Tomae can be great as well, i have some really impressive Tomae. But they are never as fast as Suitas. The Su ( holes) do their job.. Useful for knives and tools, not useful for razors ( again because of Su) . 
I really like Aiiwatani. I have chosen a very impressive Aiiwa Kiita. Even more impressive then many good Nakayamas. I would even rate the Aiiwa Kiita in same line with Nakayama Kiita. JNS gets good Aiiwas from time to time. 
I would recommend Aiiwa to anyone who is looking for a great ultimate finisher


----------



## CoqaVin

andrey would you suggest a Aiiwa after a Vintage Aoto? I might have to try out the koppa size since the regular sized ones are WICKED expensive


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> In my typical mode of frenzied acquisition, I find myself with several Jnats, many certainly performing similar roles. So I ask for guidance here:
> 
> I now have some good Aoto, including one very good one. Then I have a lot of "polishing" stones, including Takashima, Hakka, Yaginoshima, Hideriyama, Shobu, Nakayama. My fear is that I get the order mixed up, and follow the Aoto with the wrong stone.
> 
> So, which to follow Aoto? For example, I think I have a good kasumi finish progression: JNS800, Aoto, Takashima, Hakka, Nakayama. But what about double bevel?
> 
> If there are other stones better suited to follow Aoto, what are they?
> 
> Thanks!



May i add something here  
A " normal" Takashima is almost the same ( i agree with Asteger) with a Hakka. 
I risk to be even not understood here- i don't like well appreciated Hakkas, they are too soft/ muddy for me.
Neither Takashima. Though i have 1 top level Takashima Suita. ...
I would recommend one of these 2 stones, of course, not both in progression, no sense. 

A good Shobu is a very interesting stone- i have a huge Ironomo. Very good. Could be used after Hakka/Takashima before Nakayama.
A Nakayama is just a name- can be good, can be great, can be either fish nor meat. I have many, they all are from very good ( really carefully selected) to awesome. But i have some stones with can be used even after them! Not after a top Maruka, but.. Even 1 rare Hakka Karasu from a deep layer- damn fine& hard. So check the level of every stone you have, and select your range matching every single knife.
I insist: i can't imagine any progression matching any steel... 
Every good knife deserves it's own progression, SS or carbon..


----------



## Andrey V

And let me underline again: the best way ( IMHO) is to follow the steel, not the stone.. Shigefusa and Kato need different stones to get the best result - though you could start with same coarse and medium stones. An SS- steel, not to mention different PM steels, need totally different stones even to start. A good Binsui/ Jyu-Haka shows it's aggresivity on PM much better, then any other, f.e., but you can be disappointed using them on hard carbons. The more fine is the stone- the more " special" it becomes.. IMHO, sure


----------



## designdog

Thanks, Andrey and Asteger.

It seems there is no end to great JNat finishers, but, other than Aoto, no concession on what goes in the middle. Perhaps I am beating myself up on this. I have some very nice synths that would work prior to one of these Jnat finishers: ******** Bamboo 2k, Gesshin 4k, JNS 6k. In the case where I am not going for kasumi finish, they may be the best answer.

I just ordered a Shinden Yama Renge Suita. I will try that with the JNS 800, Aoto Okabana, and the JNS 6k, followed by the Shinden Suita, then .25 micron spray on a felt strop.

My knives are all carbon: Kato, Heiji, Hide, Suisin, Shigefusa, Mizuno, Terrayasu Fujiwara, Tadasuna Ikkanshi, Kochi, Masamoto, Takeda, etc. Have a few ginsan, including a custom 260mm Susin single bevel gyuto, which now looks like new, thanks to my Jnats!


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Thanks, Andrey and Asteger.
> 
> It seems there is no end to great JNat finishers, but, other than Aoto, no concession on what goes in the middle. Perhaps I am beating myself up on this. I have some very nice synths that would work prior to one of these Jnat finishers: ******** Bamboo 2k, Gesshin 4k, JNS 6k. In the case where I am not going for kasumi finish, they may be the best answer.
> 
> I just ordered a Shinden Yama Renge Suita. I will try that with the JNS 800, Aoto Okabana, and the JNS 6k, followed by the Shinden Suita, then .25 micron spray on a felt strop.
> 
> My knives are all carbon: Kato, Heiji, Hide, Suisin, Shigefusa, Mizuno, Terrayasu Fujiwara, Tadasuna Ikkanshi, Kochi, Masamoto, Takeda, etc. Have a few ginsan, including a custom 260mm Susin single bevel gyuto, which now looks like new, thanks to my Jnats!



Alors:
The good " finisher" is not used only to get the finish- you can get it as a side effect, it is used to get the ultimate edge. I used all the knives you have. Check internet: even JNS has a short nicely illustrated summary why to use Jnats and what it gives. The edge structure becomes totally different, it gives you the other retention first of all. I don't understand why the boys talk ONLY about finish: it's the EDGE!! 
Regarding your question - what after an Aoto: the matter is, how high would you rate your Aoto. It can be between 3-3,5 and 5 k. Which makes useless your 6k synthetic after it. Because you will destroy the toothy picture of your cutting edge. Please try to avoid to use the synthetic after an Jnat. A Jnat after any synthetic- it's ok. 
I'm not a fan of Aotos, if you have a great one- happy for you. My fav is a JNS " Red Atagoyama " Aoto". 
Though i like to use Naguras instead. Starting with Chu, then Botan, then Mejiro/Koma. In full size. Hard to get now... But a Chu is affordable. 
Then , if you need a bridge to the finer stone ( do you ???)- please consider, that a Hakka or Takashima or Yaginoshima ( this one a bit finer )could be rated at ca ~6K, which is already the next step after Aoto. AND: not to forget: changing the pressure while sharpening you change the cutting power of the particles, making it finer or coarser. 
Any Jnat giving Kasumi finish is not fine enough to make a mirror, which means it is ca ~6K at max. Not really good &right to set the gritness on a Jnat, but so it's easier. 
A Suita is due to Su( holes) ~ 6-8K, a good Kiita 8-10K. Not the best way( again), but just to give the idea. What comes first, what after. So imo no need to look for something specially to set in- between, your existing range could be sufficient to set up a nice progression. 
BTW- have you noticed then Shige and Kato need different progression? 

And i would recommend to stop if on stropping, then without the diamond spray. Just on JNS bench strop.


----------



## designdog

OK, OK! I am convinced! I also have the JNS red Aoto and like it, but my Nakato is harder, though does make mud. And yes, I vary the pressure, usually going very light with my last groups of strokes.

I have looked for a full size chu, but no luck yet, and it will probably be $$$ when I find one.

Of all his moderately priced finishers, our friend in Hawaii picked the Shinden for me, to alternate perhaps with the Shobu.

Now, is it at all possible to go right from Aoto to one of my finishers: Yaginoshima Asagi , Shobu Iromono, Hideriyama, Nakayama Suita, Shinden Suita, or is that too far a jump?

While I have four Katos, I only have the obligatory 210 Shige gyuto. Finishing seems the same to me, but, then again, I have not settled in to a progression yet to notice any differences.

Thanks for your comments. They are always very illuminating and helpful.


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> OK, OK! I am convinced! I also have the JNS red Aoto and like it, but my Nakato is harder, though does make mud. And yes, I vary the pressure, usually going very light with my last groups of strokes.
> 
> I have looked for a full size chu, but no luck yet, and it will probably be $$$ when I find one.
> 
> Of all his moderately priced finishers, our friend in Hawaii picked the Shinden for me, to alternate perhaps with the Shobu.
> 
> Now, is it at all possible to go right from Aoto to one of my finishers: Yaginoshima Asagi , Shobu Iromono, Hideriyama, Nakayama Suita, Shinden Suita, or is that too far a jump?
> 
> While I have four Katos, I only have the obligatory 210 Shige gyuto. Finishing seems the same to me, but, then again, I have not settled in to a progression yet to notice any differences.
> 
> Thanks for your comments. They are always very illuminating and helpful.



Welcome 
I would recommend to go to Hideri( if on softer side as usual), then Shobu Iromono, Asagi is too hard. 
Then to Nakayama or Shinden Suita
I know those Shindens from Takeshi . I don't know your Nakayama, both could be almost same hard. I have a splendid Shinden Suita, but it VERRRY hard, though very fine. 
I would advise you to pay more attention to last most important stage of sharpening with Kato ( i'm the biggest fan of Kato here, having all his knife, i think. And a big Shige collection- to me no comparison in double bevel, Shige is great in traditional japanese knives. 
They are different. Kato is much harder, it's retention is much longer. If yours are same in terms of retention, please pay an extra- attention on sharpening after Aoto. My knives are normally in following condition: set on the board with an angle, take a grape, let it fall down on the edge. Own weight. Cuts in halves. My regular sharpness with good retention. Only Jnats!!!&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;

BTW- no stropping- only " honing" on finishers


----------



## designdog

Thanks. Nakayama Suita is from Iida Tools, of "high quality." Seems very hard, big stone, very pretty coloring, over $400, whatever that means.

Will have a face off with the Shinden, which Takeshi is shipping right now...


----------



## designdog

Andrey V said:


> Welcome
> I would recommend to go to Hideri( if on softer side as usual), then Shobu Iromono, Asagi is too hard.
> Then to Nakayama or Shinden Suita
> I know those Shindens from Takeshi . I don't know your Nakayama, both could be almost same hard. I have a splendid Shinden Suita, but it VERRRY hard, though very fine.
> I would advise you to pay more attention to last most important stage of sharpening with Kato ( i'm the biggest fan of Kato here, having all his knife, i think. And a big Shige collection- to me no comparison in double bevel, Shige is great in traditional japanese knives.
> They are different. Kato is much harder, it's retention is much longer. If yours are same in terms of retention, please pay an extra- attention on sharpening after Aoto. My knives are normally in following condition: set on the board with an angle, take a grape, let it fall down on the edge. Own weight. Cuts in halves. My regular sharpness with good retention. Only Jnats!!!&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;
> 
> BTW- no stropping- only " honing" on finishers



I have the 240 "workhorse" a "real" 240, a 220 suji, and the 180 petty. Kato is my favorite, but Heiji is a very close second. Very close. And Hide makes three...

What, pray tell, stones and progression were used to get your Kato that sharp?


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> I have the 240 "workhorse" a "real" 240, a 220 suji, and the 180 petty. Kato is my favorite, but Heiji is a very close second. Very close. And Hide makes three...
> 
> What, pray tell, stones and progression were used to get your Kato that sharp?



Actually, not that important which stone to use to start ( Binsui, or Saeki or Natsuya etc)- more important is to work on higher grit stones. I explain: my knives get never that dull to need the basic stones, that's why i start very often with Chu or Mikawa, not coarser. 
Or JNS " Red Atago Aoto". 
I use a lot my favorite huge Ohira Suita ( i have several, but use actually the hardest one) - it's very quick and efficient. 
I sharpen often using the sword sharpening technic: sharpening over the front edge, that's why all my fav stones are rounded. 
Here i need just 2 stones in progression: f ex Ohira Suita and some finer Kiita ( i love Nakayama, mines are over 1000$.. ) , Aiiwatani from JNS- a very good choice, or Okudo. So any hard super fine stone without Su. I have many, use them up to the knife and my internal preferences. You know, Shirogame Kato and Workhorse JNS Kato are different in steel, i tell you i use different progression for Kikuryu, Damascus and normal Gyuto. Or Kuroushi line. Petty or Suji are thinner, get scary sharp quick with regular sharpening even on 2-3 stones. I have noticed that if you end you sharpening session on a very fine hard clean stone the result is different. After a good Suita. I have , i suppose, 5-6 stones in this nish, from Goby to Maruka. Got very cool huge Ohira Karasu from a deep layer( the weight of the stone says a lot about it's density and finesse ) - a cool sample of five hard stone to end the progression, though some Nakayamas are finer.... And my Hakka Karasu is damn fine as well. All this gives a mirror edge which helps to separate the food instead of just cutting it.

And practicing, of course. The stone itself won't make the knife sharp . Look, try, think, change, try, look, think etc.. It gives a lot. IMHO


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Actually, not that important which stone to use to start ( Binsui, or Saeki or Natsuya etc)- more important is to work on higher grit stones. I explain: my knives get never that dull to need the basic stones, that's why i start very often with Chu or Mikawa, not coarser.



I agree, but would also disagree pretty strongly. Of course you mean that earlier stones won't have a big effect in later stages of a progression, assuming that several stones are used in a progression. This is to say that a first or second coarse or coarser medium stone, if several are used in a progression, won't have a big impact on the end result. Therefore you could, for example, use a more deep-cutting synth at 400 and end up okay if you do things right after. Sure.

However, even if your goal is to end up with the sharpest-edge-ever-known then you still might want to enjoy yourself along the way, and so the choice of earlier stones will have an effect in that respect. Of course everyone has their thing, but to me medium to not-too-fine finishers are the most fun to use, because there's more variety and the coarser you go with some stones the greater range and flexibility you get. With variety, for example, you can think of how non-finishers tend to come from all over Japan. (Not interesting for all, but might be for some. There's a varied history and locality with these.) Meanwhile, finishers all come the same place, Kyoto, and their names tend to be well-known and predictable. There's also the variety in peformance, etc, and appearance to think of too. I've been in shops in Kyoto and tried a dozen or more fine stones, and there are interesting subtle differences, but comparing non-Kyoto stones is more fun to me. You don't know what you'll get as much; they don't have the same layered construction. 

Another thing I think of is range. At finer levels, natural stones will still start at a certain level, and with the slurry breaking down, finish a bit higher (unlike synths). But the range can be huge with medium or coarser stones, when coarser initial particles lead to things really breaking down. I have 2 Natsuya which might start, I guess, around 600 or 800 and skip up to aoto level surpasing that whole '1k' level. Multi-stone progressions are good and fun, but it's also interesting to be minimalist and fun to extend a stone that far and get that out of it. If you don't have the money or don't want to lug around several stones, this is also an advantage.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> I agree, but would also disagree pretty strongly. Of course you mean that earlier stones won't have a big effect in later stages of a progression, assuming that several stones are used in a progression. This is to say that a first or second coarse or coarser medium stone, if several are used in a progression, won't have a big impact on the end result. Therefore you could, for example, use a more deep-cutting synth at 400 and end up okay if you do things right after. Sure.
> 
> However, even if your goal is to end up with the sharpest-edge-ever-known then you still might want to enjoy yourself along the way, and so the choice of earlier stones will have an effect in that respect. Of course everyone has their thing, but to me medium to not-too-fine finishers are the most fun to use, because there's more variety and the coarser you go with some stones the greater range and flexibility you get. With variety, for example, you can think of how non-finishers tend to come from all over Japan. (Not interesting for all, but might be for some. There's a varied history and locality with these.) Meanwhile, finishers all come the same place, Kyoto, and their names tend to be well-known and predictable. There's also the variety in peformance, etc, and appearance to think of too. I've been in shops in Kyoto and tried a dozen or more fine stones, and there are interesting subtle differences, but comparing non-Kyoto stones is more fun to me. You don't know what you'll get as much; they don't have the same layered construction.
> 
> Another thing I think of is range. At finer levels, natural stones will still start at a certain level, and with the slurry breaking down, finish a bit higher (unlike synths). But the range can be huge with medium or coarser stones, when coarser initial particles lead to things really breaking down. I have 2 Natsuya which might start, I guess, around 600 or 800 and skip up to aoto level surpasing that whole '1k' level. Multi-stone progressions are good and fun, but it's also interesting to be minimalist and fun to extend a stone that far and get that out of it. If you don't have the money or don't want to lug around several stones, this is also an advantage.



Actually, you have confirmed my idea. 
My idea was to tell ( btw specified answer to designdog) that if you are limited for now it's ok to start with synthetic stones. 
Of course there will be no word about satisfaction or extra joy etc. 
sure- the more variety- the more fun and the better result


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Actually, you have confirmed my idea.



Haha, it's a good thing we might sound like we disagree even if we agree because then there's discussion and we like this stuff. I checked back on this thread and compared to 1 year ago or before, way more posts. Lots to explore and also disspell in the stone world, and lots that you can never find an answer to.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Haha, it's a good thing we might sound like we disagree even if we agree because then there's discussion and we like this stuff. I checked back on this thread and compared to 1 year ago or before, way more posts. Lots to explore and also disspell in the stone world, and lots that you can never find an answer to.



Natural mistic...


----------



## designdog

Well, one could just get them all...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Well, one could just get them all...



I wonder who the hell might be that one???


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> andrey would you suggest a Aiiwa after a Vintage Aoto? I might have to try out the koppa size since the regular sized ones are WICKED expensive



Why not, CoqaVin? Of course, i would suggest something in- between, but the matter of budget is important.
You know, my first Aiiwa should be a Koppa- but then my friend bought it and after some internal scruples i decided to take a full sized one.. 
The only point will be- you 'll have to work more on Aiiwa. Longer. But it'll work for sure. 
So good luck !&#128077;&#128077;&#128526;


----------



## designdog

Thanks be to Andrey and Asteger! I have now settled in to a sharpening sequence that is providing great results: Bamboo 2k, Aoto Nakato, Hideriyama, Shobu Iromono, and the star, Shinden Yama Renge Suita. It helped that I followed other advice and "put the knife at the angle you think is correct, then take it down just a bit."

I will have to try the "grape test," but I have a Kato and a Heiji with the sharpest edges I have ever felt on a knife. So sharp I can't even stand to be in the same room with them...!


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Thanks be to Andrey and Asteger! I have now settled in to a sharpening sequence that is providing great results: Bamboo 2k, Aoto Nakato, Hideriyama, Shobu Iromono, and the star, Shinden Yama Renge Suita. It helped that I followed other advice and "put the knife at the angle you think is correct, then take it down just a bit."
> 
> I will have to try the "grape test," but I have a Kato and a Heiji with the sharpest edges I have ever felt on a knife. So sharp I can't even stand to be in the same room with them...!



Oh oh oh.. Now you have to be brave to use'em&#128526;&#128526;&#9996;&#65039;!


----------



## designdog

Also, I believe Asteger has sent me a package that will let me supplant the synthetic stones entirely, for an all-natural work flow...


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## Asteger

designdog said:


> Also, I believe Asteger has sent me a package that will let me supplant the synthetic stones entirely, for an all-natural work flow...



Here's to being synth-free! :hungry:


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## daveb

And money free :doublethumbsup:


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## Asteger

daveb said:


> And money free :doublethumbsup:



But stone _rich_ :whistling:


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## daveb

Rock rich and dirt poor???

Ah, you only live once. :cool2:


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## Mute-on

daveb said:


> Rock rich and dirt poor???
> 
> Ah, you only live once. :cool2:



Classic! Good one, Dave


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## Asteger

daveb said:


> Rock rich and dirt poor??



:biggrin: Exacto


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## designdog

Suita vs Tomae. Given the opportunity to obtain an Ohira Suita or a Ohira Tomae, of equal quality, size, etc., what would be the difference in usage and performance? For example, would one be the final stone, while the other slotted in the sequence somewhere?

These are both medium hardness stones, producing slurry without aid. Can only get one! Any thoughts?


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Suita vs Tomae. Given the opportunity to obtain an Ohira Suita or a Ohira Tomae, of equal quality, size, etc., what would be the difference in usage and performance? For example, would one be the final stone, while the other slotted in the sequence somewhere?
> 
> These are both medium hardness stones, producing slurry without aid. Can only get one! Any thoughts?



Being the Ohira " fan" can't imagine that the Tomae and Suita work in same way. Normally a good Ohira Tomae is quite hard, and not too quick. A good Suita is actually much better. Check them again, Suita should be quicker because of Su ( holes). I would take a Suita. Check the color. Clear, Purple Renge, whitish/ yellowish is preferable. " rusty" lines , if not toxic, are very usual for Ohira Suitas. 
Anyway, my choice would be Suita. You should try and understand which stone makes you happy .


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## panda

coqa - if you insist on using a fine grit in the kitchen (why?) try a small sized hakka, it has even better feedback than aoto and leaves a sticky edge meaning still can grip and not slide off product. i last saw them at JNS for around a hundy.


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## Asteger

panda said:


> ... a small sized hakka ... i last saw them at JNS for around a hundy.



Or Metalmaster on eBay, who has them from time to time. Good way to see what they're like. I had one koppa before.


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## designdog

OK. It has been brought to my attention, by some far more knowledgeable than me, that I seem to have an abundance of middle finishing stones, and a dearth of finishers. This is my lineup following Aoto:

Takashima Myokakudani Suita - beautiful stone, soft, good for making haze for kasumi finish
Hakka - beautiful stone, soft, finer grit, creamy slurry, good for kasumi finish
Hideriyama - easy to use, pleasant feel, medium soft, good following auto
Shinden Yama Renge Suita - beautiful but small stone, great feel, immediate slurry
Nakayama Suita - beautiful stone, big and hard, needs nagura to make slurry
Shobu Iromono - beautiful, narrow stone, great feel

Typical sequence:
single bevel kasumi - Aoto, Takashima, Hakka, Nakayama 
double bevel - Aoto, Hideriyama, Shinden, Shobu

I was going to acquire a Ohira suita, simple because I have always wanted one. Now I am advised that it would simply add to the clutter in the middle, and I would be better off with a Nakayama or Ozuku Asagi.

I am soooo confused! :dazed:


----------



## Asteger

Hi DD, have to agree with T about this in a way, based on what's above. Takashima, Hakka, Hideriyama, Shinden, Nakayama, Shobu all could be in the same class, which is following your aoto or (I would prefer) Aizu. However, this is just a guess going by what some of these stones are normally like, and/or going by what you've said about the Shinden and Nakayama. My experience with Shobu, though, is that it could/should be a little finer than some of the others.

To me, in most situations this is already way plenty. You've described these as the 'middle' but I already would only use them sometimes at the end, and I wouldn't think of them as middle stones as they're all finishers. The medium, less fine class (Aizu, aoto, etc) you like to start from is practically plenty fine enough to me, and aoto for eg has often been seen as an ideal ending point for kitchen knives (not on finisher-mad KKF, but 'in Japan'). My take is I wouldn't feel a need to go beyond one of the stones above, except for fun and experimentation, etc. With your progression, I don't think you'd find a practical difference between the Takashima, Hakka (AV and I have said that before) and Hideriyama, though less sure about your Shinden and Nakayama suita.

However, if you go farther and want another finisher/awasedo then the Ohira might just add to your amplest category of stone. Another finer stone would give you some diversity. Mr Awasedo himself, AV, might be the best placed to chip in on this, or Vinster if he re-appears. An appropriate Ozuku or Nakayama, as you mentioned, sound about right. (I think I've only got one real contender in this class myself, an Ozuku.) 

Others will disagree but, really, I think the focus on fine finishers for kitchen knives is overstated. You should be able to get an excellent edge and nice finish from the stones above. To start, it's fairly easy to get a near-mirror on hagane with naturals or synths, and you've got nice stones for finishing the jigane too. From what I've heard, prominent knife makers in Japan will also finish on stones like you already have and not go beyond this. On the other hand, to sharpen razors there are still finer stones out there, but they're not at the core of what's useful for knives in my opinion. Their general hardness makes them more difficult to use, and I think it's even debatable how useful almost any stone beyond the medium nakato classes is. It's more just for fun, as said. 

There's a prestige that comes with the finishers from Kyoto - Nakayama, Ozuku, etc - but it's not necessarily relevant to knives, and probably more relevant to tools or razors especially, though people might not realise this. The high prices reinforce the prestige, and sometimes I wonder to what extent these stones are also promoted by sellers (I don't mean T in particular) because the high prices mean healthier margins and profits. I don't think stone sellers would survive that long, even in Japan, if they were just shipping out Amakusa or aoto, even if these are just as or even more useful to knife sharpeners than awasedo.


----------



## designdog

Thanks, Asteger. True, I have no complaints whatsoever about the edges I have be getting with these Gnats. My only real regrets are that my two favorite stones, the Shobu and the Shinden, are rather small. The Shobu is long and narrow, the Shinden. (my fave) is short and wide. thats why I was looking at the Ohira Suita: it had some size, and was a stone I did not already have...

Actually Mr T is just trying to be practical. Very good guy.


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## Asteger

designdog said:


> Actually Mr T is just trying to be practical. Very good guy.



Yes, seems pretty sound.

Shinden - really hard to get a full-sized nice one, and when I've looked into it I've been told to expect nothing below $1000 for quality.

With Ohira you can get lucky. Another collector I know has gone through about a dozen of them I think, and of these has come up with 2 or 3 he's happy with. If you have a chance at a good one, just pounce!


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Yes, seems pretty sound.
> 
> Shinden - really hard to get a full-sized nice one, and when I've looked into it I've been told to expect nothing below $1000 for quality.
> 
> With Ohira you can get lucky. Another collector I know has gone through about a dozen of them I think, and of these has come up with 2 or 3 he's happy with. If you have a chance at a good one, just pounce!



What i meant- with Ohira it's just easier to get a good one. 
Even if they are ( talking about Suitas) almost "average" - it's average is still very good. 
I agree reg Aoto- you don't need something above Aoto unless you need a refined edge. I do need. Because i use my knives in my home kitchen- so i have the right to prefer the finest cut over the toothy edge. I like " separation". Less juice, less destroyed cells , nicer look, better taste ( just a bit better everywhere, not critical). But it's a nice hobby. The hobby could be less practical, more fine, more " sophisticated" etc, isn't it? . 
So the question is: just enough or not enough. 
Just up to Aoto or up to the sky...


----------



## designdog

Well, I really could not pass on the Ohira Suita, so I took it.

You know, even though these stones I have are all in the same range, and not the ultimate finishers "someone" here has, I still think it benefits to use a progression of at least two following Aoto. If the Ohira Suita is as I think, maybe the Hideriyama or the Takishima before it.

And I still have the Shobu as a finisher past it.

The one mystery stone is my Nakayama "Suita" I will put some photos up on it. Big, hard, very little slurry, colors running through it...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Well, I really could not pass on the Ohira Suita, so I took it.
> 
> You know, even though these stones I have are all in the same range, and not the ultimate finishers "someone" here has, I still think it benefits to use a progression of at least two following Aoto. If the Ohira Suita is as I think, maybe the Hideriyama or the Takishima before it.
> 
> And I still have the Shobu as a finisher past it.
> 
> The one mystery stone is my Nakayama "Suita" I will put some photos up on it. Big, hard, very little slurry, colors running through it...



Congrats, DD!!
I am one of few fricks here being sure that the grit in Jnats is only to set up the goal . 
The " finishers" give totally different results on different steels. This is the fact. 
They reinforce the cutting edge - this is the fact as well. 
It means that having many different higher grit stones gives you the opportunity to build up the progression matching all your knives. 
The idea to use the Hakka or Takashima before Ohira Suita is absolutely reasonable. Ohira is just finer. 
I have a very cool Shobu Iromono, but my Ohiras are finer. I saw many Shobu- only Asagi was finer/harder. So i really don't know if it is so, but if you say..
A good Nakayama is finer, so can & should be used as a final stone for sure
The polishing technic on a hard fine Nakayama is different as well. As on every extra fine& hard stone- but the result is worth to fight for . 
So, congrats again, enjoy it!!&#128077;&#128077;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;&#128526;


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## Asteger

Haha, AV. Spoken like a true enthusiast.


----------



## designdog

Since these stones have already been tested, it might be interesting to show their scores. This is based on a 1-10 scale, the first number for Hardness, the second for Particle Size:
Aoto Okabana 8.5 7.7
Shobu Iromono 8.7 8.9
Shinden Yama Renge Siuta 8.6 8.8
Ohira Renge Suita 8.5 8.9

Obviously I have not tried the Ohira yet. It is interesting to me that all of these are right around the same hardness, which to me, is perfect.


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Hi. I need some help from you j-nat gurus.
I am fairly new in the world of high(er)-end kitchen knives. 
I am new here on the forum, but have lurked for some time. I have learned a lot from lurking, but felt the need to introduce myself, because lurking did not answer all my questions.

So, up until now I have sharpened on synthetics.
I have double bevel knifes (except a cheap deba), but I will probably get some singelbevel knifes in the future (yanagi and better deba).

I enjoy the sharpening process a lot, kind of a meditative state. I am not saying that I sharpen well, but I get my knifes sharp, and I enjoy the process. I am still learning. Oh, and I am not a professional chef.

The idea to use natural stones just sounds right in a way. It seems more enjoyable, and real in a way.
I am not going to start collection jnats. What I am after is a few stones that is to be used. I dont have a unlimited budget. And as I understand it, it is usual and ok to use synthetics up to #3k grit range?

So with this in mind I started the search for my first stone. Mid-range finish (ok edge on double bevel knives), easy to learn jnats on, works well in progression with higher finish stones for the future. The idea to use nagura for progression also seems like a good idea.

So here is where I need some expert help from you guys.
First, if naguras are used with a base stone with a higher grit or finer finish, lets say a chu nagura along with a ohira range suita. Is it possible to stop the sharpening with the chu on the suita (to have a less refined edge than ending with only the suita?
I dont know if I make sense, but what I am asking for is if it will work to buy a base stone and one (or more) naguras to have several finish options. Wouldnt this be more economical for a beginner than to buy two buy several base stones?
Or are naguras to be used to reach the final finish of the base stone faster?
I understand that the base stone have to have a finer grit than the nagura to work.


By different jnat sellers (no name mentioned) I have been recommended these stones:
Ohira range suita with chu and mejiro nagura.
Mizukihara awasedo with chu nagura only (as mejiro would be in the same grit range).
And Takashima lv 2.5.
What of the above stones do you think would suite my needs best, and why?

Feeeew
Long post with lots of rambling (and probably some nonsense).
Thanks for taking the time to read it, and hopefully give me some answers


----------



## designdog

Will offer an answer, based upon my recent experiences, which are similar to yours. Your mileage may vary, however, and, as always, I defer to the experts here  who, in fact, helped me.

Before you look at a finishing stone, you have to evaluate what you are using to get there. In my experience, jNats revolve around the Aoto, at least for me. Lower grit stones, like 800, or 2k are best for synthetics, which are faster, and produce burrs readily. (There are difference in opinions on this, and I have several low grit jNats, but let's move on.) So I recommend getting the best Aoto you can find  not any easy job. JNS synthetic red auto is a good second choice.

From the Aoto you can go to what I call a mid polish finishing stone. Since you are focusing on double bevel knives, and not into producing kasumi finish just yet, I would recommend Hideriyama. Takashima is an excellent alternative. The key, since you are just starting out, is to get a stone that is soft enough to get slurry going immediately, without there aid of nagura, yet fine enough to do some good polishing.

Of course, if you prefer remaining with your 4k synthetic stones for now, it is your privilege. For me, the joy of jNats begin with Aoto.

A critical part of all this is your stone supplier. Looking at photos of stones, while interesting, is only part of the story. Good stone vendors will test each stone and provide a scale to help you determine their fit in your setup.

I would stay away from naguras and all of that high end stuff for now. I know it is tempting  I have much of it myself. Starting out, however, you should get stones that don't require nagura. If you absolutely must go there, I suggest getting a Botan to use in slurry enhancement, but, again, you should not need it at this point.

I hope these comments will help. My current status is so far beneath the experts here that my blunders are still fresh in my memory  long forgotten by them.:notworthy:


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Hi. I need some help from you j-nat gurus.
> I am fairly new in the world of high(er)-end kitchen knives.
> I am new here on the forum, but have lurked for some time. I have learned a lot from lurking, but felt the need to introduce myself, because lurking did not answer all my questions.
> 
> So, up until now I have sharpened on synthetics.
> I have double bevel knifes (except a cheap deba), but I will probably get some singelbevel knifes in the future (yanagi and better deba).
> 
> I enjoy the sharpening process a lot, kind of a meditative state. I am not saying that I sharpen well, but I get my knifes sharp, and I enjoy the process. I am still learning. Oh, and I am not a professional chef.
> 
> The idea to use natural stones just sounds right in a way. It seems more enjoyable, and real in a way.
> I am not going to start collection jnats. What I am after is a few stones that is to be used. I dont have a unlimited budget. And as I understand it, it is usual and ok to use synthetics up to #3k grit range?
> 
> So with this in mind I started the search for my first stone. Mid-range finish (ok edge on double bevel knives), easy to learn jnats on, works well in progression with higher finish stones for the future. The idea to use nagura for progression also seems like a good idea.
> 
> So here is where I need some expert help from you guys.
> First, if naguras are used with a base stone with a higher grit or finer finish, lets say a chu nagura along with a ohira range suita. Is it possible to stop the sharpening with the chu on the suita (to have a less refined edge than ending with only the suita?
> I dont know if I make sense, but what I am asking for is if it will work to buy a base stone and one (or more) naguras to have several finish options. Wouldnt this be more economical for a beginner than to buy two buy several base stones?
> Or are naguras to be used to reach the final finish of the base stone faster?
> I understand that the base stone have to have a finer grit than the nagura to work.
> 
> 
> By different jnat sellers (no name mentioned) I have been recommended these stones:
> Ohira range suita with chu and mejiro nagura.
> Mizukihara awasedo with chu nagura only (as mejiro would be in the same grit range).
> And Takashima lv 2.5.
> What of the above stones do you think would suite my needs best, and why?
> 
> Feeeew
> Long post with lots of rambling (and probably some nonsense).
> Thanks for taking the time to read it, and hopefully give me some answers



Hi 
Not to " overload " you with the information i can say: actually designdog gave you good answer. 
I often advise to use a fine hard base stone+ a set of naguras. But: you have to be careful with the hard stones. Why: they are non- forgiving. 
A quite cheap Takashima in a range of 2,5 ( check JNS offers now, Maksim has some affordable not-exactly-square Takashimas) will help you a lot. It's same stuff as Hakka, but cheaper. Not super- fine, ca 6-7.000 k. But that's ok. 
I would never recommend you to use a Chu Nagura on an Ohira Suita- generally speaking there is no sense to use a rough Nagura on Suita- you will block the Su ( holes) which speed up the sharpening a lot. 
Take a cheap forgiving stone- DD gave you a very reasonable advise: try to get a good Aoto. Then a Takashima. If you'll like it- take an Ohira Suita, i love them. 
That will be more then enough. Later on: a nice Kiita ( depends which mine- and how much to pay for). A Shobu Itomono or Kiita could be good as well. 
Don't use a Nagura on Takashima- you should get slurry from the stone, take the stone which gives you this. 
From Aoto and up. 
There are no limits. But: an Aoto is great for the kitchen, if you would like to get the more sophisticated edge/ finish- a high- midrange- and a finisher. 
The finishers are being used not only for single beveled knives, not just to " finish " them, but to polish&reinforce the cutting edge as well. So using the knives at home you can allow yourself to get the maximum of your knives. Here you pay with Kirenagi for the ultimate cut. 
The result will please you . 
Good luck !


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Wow
Thanks guys!
I guess that keeping it simple newer goes out of fasshion
I think Ill go with the red aoto synthetic/takashima option for now, and maybee expand later with finer stones..
That is if you dont happen to know a source for natural aoto with good quality. If you do, it would be great if you send me a pm were I kind find one. 

Thanks guys!
This will for sure not be the last time I will bother you with my stupid ideas and dumb questions.
Cheers


----------



## Asteger

Hi Dazed&kasumi - the idea of a fine, hard 'base' stone and multiple nagura of different levels of coarseness, I think, is a great idea, but more of a razor thing. With that you could use a medium 'bevel-setter' stone, and the one natural with more than one nagura and you should be fine. It's relatively inexpensive to get multiple nagura, and you could do a lot with these combos on knives, but you'll also need more range than that because you'll need to thin and probably bang up your knives and need lower-grit 'repair' options. You could use synths for this - like a 400 or 500 and below, and another like a 800 or a 1000, or naturals too if that suits you. Not many people have/use coarse and lower-med naturals, but I do. Also, although nagura slurry provides a buffer, it's also more difficult to use a hard stone on the contours of a knife. That's probably not for most people.

Yes, as said above no need for nagura on a suita, so long as it's a decent suita. If not, then the nagura would probably just be compensating. The reason many people like suita is the su holes which increase abrasion, the distinctive thing with that layer, oh and probably that they have a good level of fineness (not too fine, but quite fine) for knives. So, as long as it's good, it should do well on its own without nagura. (I wonder if you got the nagura idea from razor forums where people might seem to like to nagura-everything, which is the opposite of here where people are often too nagura-adverse. Somewhere in the middle is best I think, and always good to experiment.)

The recommendations above sound good. Aoto are often thought of as ideal for knives, and tools also. Not sure if they're usually clean enough for razors. I think DD above had a great idea about focusing on aoto - or similar coarseness - as for many people they give the ideal finish and edge on a knife, say from 1k or 2k to 5k, or are the springboard to fine polishing or very fine edges. 'Aoto' are all sorts of stones, and there are other stones within the 'aoto' range of coarseness. I'm not the biggest aoto fan, and my fav here is still Aizu - but not the easiest thing to find ideal stones that you like in either case, and the latter is rare. There are, however, lots of other med-stones out there, but they aren't available/sold to people you'll hear from because they're not profitable or accessible enough for the vendors, or at least that's my theory.



Dazedandkasumi said:


> This will for sure not be the last time I will bother you with my stupid ideas and dumb questions.



I think people are sometimes hestitant to write and post questions, and it's true that there still aren't too many who answer, but no reason to hold back as discussion is a good thing. No one here's a real 'expert' as you said; they all live in Japan and aren't on KKF. But these days people seem to enjoy discussion a bit more and respond better than in the past, when perhaps replies to questions were more sparse/functional and people perhaps participated and maintained a KKF presence to participate in sales rather than discuss/exchange. It's pretty likely that most of us don't know people offline who would have a clue about this stuff, but we do have this here.


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Asteger said:


> Hi Dazed&kasumi - the idea of a fine, hard 'base' stone and multiple nagura of different levels of coarseness, I think, is a great idea, but more of a razor thing. With that you could use a medium 'bevel-setter' stone, and the one natural with more than one nagura and you should be fine. It's relatively inexpensive to get multiple nagura, and you could do a lot with these combos on knives, but you'll also need more range than that because you'll need to thin and probably bang up your knives and need lower-grit 'repair' options. You could use synths for this - like a 400 or 500 and below, and another like a 800 or a 1000, or naturals too if that suits you. Not many people have/use coarse and lower-med naturals, but I do. Also, although nagura slurry provides a buffer, it's also more difficult to use a hard stone on the contours of a knife. That's probably not for most people.
> 
> Yes, as said above no need for nagura on a suita, so long as it's a decent suita. If not, then the nagura would probably just be compensating. The reason many people like suita is the su holes which increase abrasion, the distinctive thing with that layer, oh and probably that they have a good level of fineness (not too fine, but quite fine) for knives. So, as long as it's good, it should do well on its own without nagura. (I wonder if you got the nagura idea from razor forums where people might seem to like to nagura-everything, which is the opposite of here where people are often too nagura-adverse. Somewhere in the middle is best I think, and always good to experiment.)
> 
> The recommendations above sound good. Aoto are often thought of as ideal for knives, and tools also. Not sure if they're usually clean enough for razors. I think DD above had a great idea about focusing on aoto - or similar coarseness - as for many people they give the ideal finish and edge on a knife, say from 1k or 2k to 5k, or are the springboard to fine polishing or very fine edges. 'Aoto' are all sorts of stones, and there are other stones within the 'aoto' range of coarseness. I'm not the biggest aoto fan, and my fav here is still Aizu - but not the easiest thing to find ideal stones that you like in either case, and the latter is rare. There are, however, lots of other med-stones out there, but they aren't available/sold to people you'll hear from because they're not profitable or accessible enough for the vendors, or at least that's my theory.
> 
> 
> 
> I think people are sometimes hestitant to write and post questions, and it's true that there still aren't too many who answer, but no reason to hold back as discussion is a good thing. No one here's a real 'expert' as you said; they all live in Japan and aren't on KKF. But these days people seem to enjoy discussion a bit more and respond better than in the past, when perhaps replies to questions were more sparse/functional and people perhaps participated and maintained a KKF presence to participate in sales rather than discuss/exchange. It's pretty likely that most of us don't know people offline who would have a clue about this stuff, but we do have this here.



The idea about naguras actualy came from this forum. Found a old post about using a hard binsui with naguras. I was intrigued with the ide. Seemd cost efficent. But for now, as I am a novice, I think Ill skip this idea.

I also read somewhere about the "su" holes in suitas, and that using naguras would be conterproductive. The suitas was recomande along with naguras when I aksed a retailer about option for base stone/nagura combo. Maybe the suita was "lacking" the "su" holes?

At first I was after a mid grit stone like a aoto (3-5k range in synth terms), as I have synthetics fro 500 up to 6000 grit I just wanted a natural finisher that would leave a toothy finsh. Had no luck with finding aotos, except this one place (the shape was kind of odd, slim 40-50 mm and high, seems unpractical).

If you do know a place that have a good med finisher I would apriciate it if you send me a pm with info on were to look

If not I will probably just buy a jns red aoto and a takashima.

Thanks


----------



## Asteger

Nagura can help maintain a stone and/or also get things going, especially on harder stones. Some stones work really well with them, which wouldn't be too useful without. For example, I have a Tajima that feels great but doesn't really give much on its own. A similar one which I don't think anyone's heard of is a Ueno, and others are also hard but maybe not as uncompromising as those. So, yeah, these are both lower-meds that you can get a lot out of with a combination of nagura.

About the suita - maybe, or maybe the seller was just being agreeable. Not all suita are fast-cutting like people like.

You mentioned 3-5k. Most people here wouldn't consider something around here a 'finisher' although it's plenty fine for some, including me. It's still a medium. 

I think someone here's recently got an aoto he's fond of from Aframes, an Okabana. As far as I know, the Atagoyama ('red aoto' on JNS) were around a bit, but have dried up in the past 2 years or so, so you would have to wait for BST or ask. Lots of Takashima. That would fit in well following the synths you have.


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Asteger said:


> Nagura can help maintain a stone and/or also get things going, especially on harder stones. Some stones work really well with them, which wouldn't be too useful without. For example, I have a Tajima that feels great but doesn't really give much on its own. A similar one which I don't think anyone's heard of is a Ueno, and others are also hard but maybe not as uncompromising as those. So, yeah, these are both lower-meds that you can get a lot out of with a combination of nagura.
> 
> About the suita - maybe, or maybe the seller was just being agreeable. Not all suita are fast-cutting like people like.
> 
> You mentioned 3-5k. Most people here wouldn't consider something around here a 'finisher' although it's plenty fine for some, including me. It's still a medium.
> 
> I think someone here's recently got an aoto he's fond of from Aframes, an Okabana. As far as I know, the Atagoyama ('red aoto' on JNS) were around a bit, but have dried up in the past 2 years or so, so you would have to wait for BST or ask. Lots of Takashima. That would fit in well following the synths you have.



I am totaly in line with 3-5k grit not being finisher. I used the word wrong. What I ment to say was stopping point (lost in translation )

About the suita and nagura, it might have been me that was asking keenly about nagura progression stones (without having a clue what I was asking for).

Still looking for a natural stone in the 3-5 k range for a stopping point on most of my knives. There are some aotos going to be avilable next week. 

What do you think about a ikarishi and a takashima combo? Is the ikarishi to corse to use as a stopping point for toothy a edge?

Or should I just keep my naniwa ss#3000 for now, buy a takashima and either buy corser and finer natural when I have some experience with natural stones from the takashima. Do I need the JNS red aoto, or do the ss#3000 more or less cover the same work?

Many question
I understand that there is not a definit answer, but opinions from experienced people helps in understanding some principles I think

Thanks for the help guys


----------



## designdog

My feeling is if you get some coarse jNats before you truly understand and appreciate sharpening with Japanese natural stones you will impair your appreciation for them. Like learning to play golf with a 2 iron, because it is easy to buy that as a single club - there is a reason for it. If you had a really good 1k and 4k synthetic, I would say get the Takashima and enter the world of jNats. However, I don't consider Naniwa SS particularly good synthetic stones.

Lets look at what I think is needed for a really good sharpening setup. First, some low grit stones for repair, setting bevels, etc. I use a ******** Bamboo 150 and JNS 800 for most of my needs here. 
(Optional: a really good synthetic 1k, in my case a ******** *** extra extra hard, a really good synth to jNat transition stone, a ******** Bamboo 2k.)
Then an Aoto (or an Aizu) of high quality. Really if you get the JNS synth red Aoto it is close to the same thing. In fact, Maxsim has some videos showing a JNS800, JNS synth red Aoto, Takashima progression.
A good 6-8k jNat, like Takashima, Hideriyama, Hakka.
A really good finishing stone, for which I am still searching, but making do with a nice Shobu Iromono.

So, my advice:

1. do not get a coarse jNat right now
2. are you happy with the edge off your 3k Naniwa? If yes, get the Takashima. If no, get the JNS synth red Aoto.
2. get the Takashima after you have solved (2) above.

Walk before running, grasshopper...


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## Dazedandkasumi

> Walk before running, grasshopper...


:biggrin:
I know, I know:biggrin:

It's just the way God created me. 
When I do something, I have to do it for real. Digg in deep.. Have to be some kind of syndrome:stinker:
But usualy I learn fast, and I dont give up before I am satisfied. Sometimes a expensive venture:O

I am a teacher by profession (not english teacher as you might have guessed:lol2, and one if the principals with pedagogic is that the higest form of learning takes place when you teach others. So in reality guys, when I am yearning to fly (as fast as possible), and are asking you all this stupid questions I am kind contrinuting to reinforce your knowledge.. (rant, rant...:tease

Anyways, I do apriciate all the help you have given me! 
I am truly looking forward to join the jnat club of nuts for real :biggrin:

Soon gentleman, soon


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Well that was that..
Order made. One JNS red aoto and one takashima.
Designdog Its not that I am not satisfied with the edge I get from naniwa, I am(kind of). But I guess I am one of those that always long for evolution. So, I debated back and forth with my self if I needed the JNS red (probably not), I decided that it probably will bring something new/different to the table. I could have persued a natural stone in that grit range(and will probably do that), but for now I think the JNS red and the takashima is more than sufficient to cover my exploration/evaluation in this fasinating world of rock..

I will report back on the stones, and I will also seek help when time comes to expand my stone selection..
Thanks!


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## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> I am totaly in line with 3-5k grit not being finisher. I used the word wrong. What I ment to say was stopping point (lost in translation )
> 
> About the suita and nagura, it might have been me that was asking keenly about nagura progression stones (without having a clue what I was asking for).
> 
> Still looking for a natural stone in the 3-5 k range for a stopping point on most of my knives. There are some aotos going to be avilable next week.
> 
> What do you think about a ikarishi and a takashima combo? Is the ikarishi to corse to use as a stopping point for toothy a edge?
> 
> Or should I just keep my naniwa ss#3000 for now, buy a takashima and either buy corser and finer natural when I have some experience with natural stones from the takashima. Do I need the JNS red aoto, or do the ss#3000 more or less cover the same work?
> 
> Many question
> I understand that there is not a definit answer, but opinions from experienced people helps in understanding some principles I think
> 
> Thanks for the help guys



I shared many times the idea ( as a quite reasonable&affordable solution when economically needed) to use the set of Nagura on a hard&fine base stone. The solution hasn't been developed by me  by far, this is the most common way in a razor world, but many people are known for "inventing the bicycle", and that was me as well &#128540;. 
I came to this conclusion when starting collecting fine finishers, funny.
I had a hard stone, it was Ohira Tomae, non- marked, in a less-then-razor-size, almost not-useful- stone because of it's hardness. 
Without any idea what could it be i started to surf between sources trying to identify it by color and overall look. So i came to Ohira Tomae. I bought the big stone. Same hardness . My very beginning.. . I was shocked by the prices for Jnats, i couldn't accept'em mentally. That's why Ohira Tomae -it wasn't cheap, but quite affordable. 
I thought i would use the smaller one as Tomonagura. It worked! Then i got some other Nagura- it helped as well. Then the set-of-3 Asano. It was good. 
The thing is- looking for the info about the knives&stones you skip the info about the razors/tools etc , because you think it isn't useful. Sometimes yes, sometimes not. 
Anyway- i can always advise to use Nagura to speed up the process, if you start collecting your own experience, but later on better to try to get the slurry from the stone. 
Some Nagura on a coarse stone - he he, can work, but i would skip explaining why i wouldn't even discuss it. 
Ikarashi ( if a good one) is a good handy stone, quite coarse, but mine is quick as well. Better for stainless steel knives. 
Please don't forget : there are no PERFECT set up matching ANY steel- you should consider which stones match your knife( steels). Check different steels on same stones- you'll be surprised how different the response is. 
The Japanese sharpeners call it " the perfect marriage between the knife and the stone" . 
It works better ( easier) on coarser stones, but becomes an intriguing game on finer ones. 
And taking regular care about your knives you won't use your coarse stones that often: should you really set the bevel every time??? Actually, if you did it right, you shouldn't. But to refine/refresh the edge- YESSSS, this is what you do. You don't use the knife until it is really dull - i don't. I refresh the edge as soon as i feel the sharpness disappears. 
So you need more in med / high range, less in coarse. 
And again: the biggest gap is between the SS steels and the carbons, then between them. Even different forging styles of different blacksmiths give different results on same steels. I say it having a nice knives&stones collection , comparing them and trying other stuff where ever i can. 
That's why i vote for an "Aoto-like" good stone and a Takashima to start. As already posted before. 
An Ohira Suita is always great- it's one of the all-purpose stones. If a good one. Not cheap, but really good. 
After- there are so many possibilities... Even the same stones , having similar features, work differently...
It's a nice world to explore..


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## designdog

Andrey,

Good comments. Which reminds me, I am still looking for that really good finishing stone. I like the Ohira Renge Suita very much, but I believe I need one more step...:biggrin:


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## Dazedandkasumi

designdog said:


> Andrey,
> 
> Good comments. Which reminds me, I am still looking for that really good finishing stone. I like the Ohira Renge Suita very much, but I believe I need one more step...:biggrin:



Thats the nature of humans, always seeking for the next step on the ladder evolution is the name of the game. Hunger is the feeling.. 

Anyway, the thing that facinate me with subjects like jnat sharpening is that there is nota definite answer. Things like the interaction with different stones and different steels varies. And that you grow with the stone as you get to know it. There is no magic involved, its just such a complex world. That is probably the differance from synthetic stones as I understand it, complexity vs monotony..

Will have my eyes open for a good ohira range suita.. What gives? What to look for in a good one?


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Thats the nature of humans, always seeking for the next step on the ladder evolution is the name of the game. Hunger is the feeling..
> 
> Anyway, the thing that facinate me with subjects like jnat sharpening is that there is nota definite answer. Things like the interaction with different stones and different steels varies. And that you grow with the stone as you get to know it. There is no magic involved, its just such a complex world. That is probably the differance from synthetic stones as I understand it, complexity vs monotony..


This is all about the magic when talking about the Jnats &#128540;&#128526;&#128526;&#128526;. Otherwise hard to justify the cost of the really good stones . 
So leave it to be a bit "mystic" . 
Anyway, it works often in that way, and the sharpening/ polishing ( not to mention the other important topic: fingerstones!!!) it's a kind of druid magic.


----------



## Asteger

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Will have my eyes open for a good ohira range suita.. What gives? What to look for in a good one?



I'm not one of the ones who's tried a dozen+ of these, but I say it might be hard to guess based on photos for eg. One thing you'll see is colour, and it might be that more white-ish ones are hard and not very abrasive, while greyer ones are on the more comfortable softer side. Brownish ends and corners may show inconsistency and be harder. (I have one that is brownish on one side, but that side is unusable.) Pink renge is probably a good thing 

People are also afraid of lines, but these are common in suita - though you'd prob want to stay away from a 'sujimono' (ie. one that's chaulk full of lines). Lines can be okay and not impact sharpening, or be too hard and 'click' on the knife edge or you can feel the knife glide over them if perpendicular. One rule of thumb might be that a line can be a problem when it reflects light when you examine the stone in person. However, lines are more a concern for razors than for (less delicate) knife work, and it's common to dig out lines or hard parts. (Google Dr Naka's classic blog on the Shigefusa O-suita; I like how this also deflates some of the mystique and puts the emphasis on practical.) 

Beyond that, a recommendation is useful. However, that's also difficult if a vendor describes everything as 'super' all the time. Perhaps better to buy from a fellow collector then? Price isn't necessarily a guide either. My best one was the expensive type, though it wasn't the prettiest stone. Another collector I know has probably owned 1-2 dozen o-suita, including some of the $1000 variety, but his fav and best cost only $200 or less., lucky guy.


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## KimBronnum

I think it is a very good combination you have recommended (and with good reasons). 
I especially agree with you, Andrey, when you point out that if you touch up regularly, the coarser stones gets very little use. Also, when you introduce Jnat-finishers to your progression, it is my experience that sharpening becomes a whole different kind of Zen... I sometimes find myself looking for "forgotten" (perhaps dull) knives in boxes because I feel like spending 10 minutes with a knife and one of my finishers - with their own sound, smell and feeling during sharpening... 
Because of this it is a great joy to add a new stone to the collection. This would be the main reason why I recommend that you wait buying more stones for the time being. You need to find out what kind of stones you prefer...: The silky-smooth Hakkas and Atagoyamas, a hard and more aggressive suita, or a mixture of the best elements in the expensive Nakayamas - to mention some of the more well known Jnats (finishers). 
You are going to have more fun (for the money) if you plan and look forward to your next buy rather than impulse-buying a few at a time. 
- Kim


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## designdog

I get confused regarding Atagoyama. On the one hand, I have seen them referred to as finishers, with the attendant prices, on the other hand, I believe my (very nice) JNS "red Aoto" is in fact an Atagoyama.

This does not help.

And what, pray tell, is an Aiiwatani?


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## Asteger

Aiiwatani's just another mine, and their stock seems relatively easy to get now. Perhaps it wasn't as much in the past.

Atagoyama, yes, is confusing in a way because Atago Mt. is the mount to the NW of Kyoto City (behind the Golden Temple) where honyama, the classic finisher mines, are all found. What I don't know is if stones sold as 'Atagoyama' are from an unnamed mine there, and thus given a generic 'Atagoyama' tag, or what. Certainly if the mine is Shobu or Nakayama, etc, and this is known then that would be stated. I'm guessing there's a single mine that they come from, though I should check.

About the Atagoyama that JNS has sold as 'red/green aoto' the write ups on JNS have said how these are from a certain layer and were intended as finishing stones. (As these are medium stones and too coarse to be finishers for most KKF stone nuts, to me this says a lot about this style of preference versus the expectations at source in Kyoto where stones like these are probably seen as an ideal, practical ending point for knives, rather than something finer or very fine.) Of course there are other layers too. JNS, for eg, has sold Atagoyama suita as well.


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## vinster

:tease:

I've been through a few ohira suita, from a lot of different sources, including maybe half a dozen or so from JNS and here are my takeaways:

On average, they're fairly good finishing stones, and I think there's less variability in their quality compared to readily available stones from other mines. They tend to be softer than a some other suita, so are often in the discussion when talking about kitchen knives. 

That being said, there's still a fair bit of variation in terms of appearance, hardness, and speed of cutting. I've had some nice scores as well as some duds. 

The lines I've seen in ohira suita don't really impact performance -- at least among the ones I've tried. That being said, I usually pick stones that are pretty clean in appearance. I specifically seek out stones that are on the softer side, and preferably fast cutting. These are almost impossible to tell via pictures, I'll take a chance on a cheap stone that's attractive in appearance. 

Similar to the person Asteger describes, some of my favorite stones were under $300 bucks, while some $1,000+ stones sit unused (although they are pretty).



Asteger said:


> I'm not one of the ones who's tried a dozen+ of these, but I say it might be hard to guess based on photos for eg. One thing you'll see is colour, and it might be that more white-ish ones are hard and not very abrasive, while greyer ones are on the more comfortable softer side. Brownish ends and corners may show inconsistency and be harder. (I have one that is brownish on one side, but that side is unusable.) Pink renge is probably a good thing
> 
> People are also afraid of lines, but these are common in suita - though you'd prob want to stay away from a 'sujimono' (ie. one that's chaulk full of lines). Lines can be okay and not impact sharpening, or be too hard and 'click' on the knife edge or you can feel the knife glide over them if perpendicular. One rule of thumb might be that a line can be a problem when it reflects light when you examine the stone in person. However, lines are more a concern for razors than for (less delicate) knife work, and it's common to dig out lines or hard parts. (Google Dr Naka's classic blog on the Shigefusa O-suita; I like how this also deflates some of the mystique and puts the emphasis on practical.)
> 
> Beyond that, a recommendation is useful. However, that's also difficult if a vendor describes everything as 'super' all the time. Perhaps better to buy from a fellow collector then? Price isn't necessarily a guide either. My best one was the expensive type, though it wasn't the prettiest stone. Another collector I know has probably owned 1-2 dozen o-suita, including some of the $1000 variety, but his fav and best cost only $200 or less., lucky guy.


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## Dazedandkasumi

Many good advise guys! The takashima will arrive today. As I have no experience with jnats Ill use some time to get to know it. Maybe use it and read some more about it (and other jnats). I guess it is easyer to understand the descriptions of jnats in general when you have some experience. When time comes and I am ready to expand with more stones I will for sure seek advise from you guys (so much experience combined here).

One question about the takashima. Should I mount it on a woodbase/and or seal it?

Cheers,
Geir


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## Dazedandkasumi

Asteger said:


> Aiiwatani's just another mine, and their stock seems relatively easy to get now. Perhaps it wasn't as much in the past.
> 
> Atagoyama, yes, is confusing in a way because Atago Mt. is the mount to the NW of Kyoto City (behind the Golden Temple) where honyama, the classic finisher mines, are all found. What I don't know is if stones sold as 'Atagoyama' are from an unnamed mine there, and thus given a generic 'Atagoyama' tag, or what. Certainly if the mine is Shobu or Nakayama, etc, and this is known then that would be stated. I'm guessing there's a single mine that they come from, though I should check.
> 
> About the Atagoyama that JNS has sold as 'red/green aoto' the write ups on JNS have said how these are from a certain layer and were intended as finishing stones. (As these are medium stones and too coarse to be finishers for most KKF stone nuts, to me this says a lot about this style of preference versus the expectations at source in Kyoto where stones like these are probably seen as an ideal, practical ending point for knives, rather than something finer or very fine.) Of course there are other layers too. JNS, for eg, has sold Atagoyama suita as well.



Funny thing you mentioned the golden temple in Kyoto, as I have been there. Sadly before my interest in high end knives I spent some 3 weeks traveling all over Japan as a student. Great time. Fantastic country. Will for sure go back


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## Asteger

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Funny thing you mentioned the golden temple in Kyoto, as I have been there. Sadly before my interest in high end knives



Haha, yes. All those tourists, dazzled by some silly gold-covered building, but unaware of the greater treasures extracted from the non-descript mountain behind.  ... 

Your Takashima is from a bit farther north of there, though. I think for layered finishers, they aren't really on the thin side unless they're under 20-25mm in thickness. Then I'd put it on a base. If you lacquer it and sharpen normally on a flat surface (holders don't contact with all the stone) then you should be fine. I think JKI Takashima are quite thin for some reason, but from other sellers they're alright.


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## Dazedandkasumi

Got the stones. Played a bit with them. All good.

The jns red aoto has a fantastic fealing for an synthetic. Do not regret getting this one. Good feadback, smoth and fast.. a+

The takashima feels smooth. As this is my first jnat I think I have to use it more before I get aquainted with it. I did get some mud from it, but not much. Watching Maxims video with a takashima made me wonder if I used to little preassure? Anyways, after first time used I am satisfied.

I did not seal it. Is nailpolish the fast and easy way to go?

Cheers,
Geir


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## designdog

Geir,

If you were watching the same Maxsim video I was, you will see he was sharpening a Mukimono, which is a single bevel knife. In doing so, the entire single bevel is in contact with the stone. This creates much more slurry that the typical double bevel edge sharpening. And you assuredly do vary pressure when you sharpen with jNats. Andrey here is the expert on this, but what I do is start off strong but remember to do several passes just softly swiping the slurry near the end of my progression on the stone. How did the Takashima smell? Another jNat pleasure!

I don't have a jNat purchased directly from JNI, but several second party resales. They were all already sealed. I think this is more an issue for the lower grit stones, but I defer to the experts here on that...


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

designdog said:


> Geir,
> 
> If you were watching the same Maxsim video I was, you will see he was sharpening a Mukimono, which is a single bevel knife. In doing so, the entire single bevel is in contact with the stone. This creates much more slurry that the typical double bevel edge sharpening. And you assuredly do vary pressure when you sharpen with jNats. Andrey here is the expert on this, but what I do is start off strong but remember to do several passes just softly swiping the slurry near the end of my progression on the stone. How did the Takashima smell? Another jNat pleasure!
> 
> I don't have a jNat purchased directly from JNI, but several second party resales. They were all already sealed. I think this is more an issue for the lower grit stones, but I defer to the experts here on that...



Actually there are two videos of the takashima. In the most recent of them he is sharpening a sujihiki (the contact area should ba the same), it might be difference from stone to stone, or that I just need to spend more time with the stone. Get to know it better. Anyways, it fealt great, And I was satisfied with the edge it left. I guess things can only get better from here. I am a happy camper

About the smell. I am a avid smoker of cuban cigars. I like to read books and smoke cigar. This is one lifes great pleassures for me. The smell of the takashima reminded me alot of that book/library/cigarsmoke smell (if you dont smoke cigars I guess this sounds awful). :happymug:
So, the takashima smelled good!


Does every kind of stone smell different, or more or less the same?
Does ever


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## daveb

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Does every kind of stone smell different, or more or less the same?



Hell, the folks on here lick the stones. But only the pervs lick the backsides.


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## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Actually there are two videos of the takashima. In the most recent of them he is sharpening a sujihiki (the contact area should ba the same), it might be difference from stone to stone, or that I just need to spend more time with the stone. Get to know it better. Anyways, it fealt great, And I was satisfied with the edge it left. I guess things can only get better from here. I am a happy camper
> 
> About the smell. I am a avid smoker of cuban cigars. I like to read books and smoke cigar. This is one lifes great pleassures for me. The smell of the takashima reminded me alot of that book/library/cigarsmoke smell (if you dont smoke cigars I guess this sounds awful). :happymug:
> So, the takashima smelled good!
> 
> 
> Does every kind of stone smell different, or more or less the same?
> Does ever



Hey guys
About the smells: i am that " crazy dud" to point out all the features which seem to me to be important, one of those is a smell. 
Sounds funny ( maybe), but the smell helps me to determine the stone. So they do differ. 
If you get used to remember the smells, like you do with cigars&books, it will be easy. 
The smell is very important when preparing the stone- when it is ready to be used it gives a maximum of it. I explain: smell without water in dry, with some splash of and watered enough- you'll understand what i mean. Different mines ( stones) smell differently, but have some common features like wines. I'm a wine freak as well , that's why i refer to this matter. 
Reg Takashima: exactly it's specific earthy smoky smell helped me to determine one some months ago. 
Ab sealing: yes, you have to do it: Takashima tends to split, seal the sides and bottom with a clear lacquer. I use a natural shellac. Sometimes a clear good acrylic lacquer. But normally a good shellac. It smells chocolate....
Reg slurry: have you cleaned/ prepared the stone? You have to remove the upper part by Atoma, f ex. Round the corners. The upper layer takes all the dust/mud etc from the ambiance it was kept. It might be the main reason you don't get slurry out of it. The stone itself is normally very muddy


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## Asteger

daveb said:


> Hell, the folks on here lick the stones. But only the pervs lick the backsides.



Bwahaha - never thought of that way. Whole new field of enjoyment to derive from my collection now!

About stone smells, I have one or two which stink and which I try to forget the smell of when used (can't remember which and can't check as I'm nowhere near home at the moment). Otherwise, some have stonger smells and some less. Lots smell like a damp basement, not so nice, and so I sometimes wonder when the odd comment comes up about their 'interesting' smells. I'd rather sniff wine.

I haven't heard of the J-experts distinguishing stones by smell, though it could be a factor and is a useful idea Visual clues, incluiding the skin if any, plus hardness, finess and performance of course are the usual things. Incluiding what's beyond Kyoto, there still are many old sources of stones and no one would go so far as to know most of these. Might be pssible to distinguish when dealing with a few stone types we know quite well.


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## Asteger

Asteger said:


> ... beyond Kyoto, there still are many old sources of stones and no one would go so far as to know most of these..



I meant knowing these by smell. Oops


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## Dazedandkasumi

daveb said:


> Hell, the folks on here lick the stones. But only the pervs lick the backsides.



:laugh:
Why not lick them also. Sounds fair considering the price. I guess only the most expensive is worth licking all over:lol2:
And, no licking of vintage!

Joking aside
The idea to use smell as one of the factors to identify is not a stupid idea. I also roast my own coffee. In coffee roasting smell (along with sound and sight) is used to identify where in the roast prosses you are. It is of course also used to identify where the coffee is from. So I can understand that you can use the smell of stones in identifying where stones are from (and for the trained one, where the stone is in the sharpening prosess). 
The important thing, I guess, is to start taking notice of the smell when handeling stones.

I found some boatvarnish (uretanalkalybase clear laquer). Do you think it will do the jobb?
Is there any problem with laquer (or chemicals) being drawn inside the stone and messing up the structure?

Cheers,
Geir


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## Asteger

Goodness, a real stone nut would never dream of allowing saliva to befoul his precious tennen toishi. He arises at dawneach day to collect the purest water from the hidden mountain brook.

About lacquer - don't know the stuff you've mentioned. The best, if not urushi or cashew, must be shellac. It should be fresh (check prod date, or make your own). Using nailposh as asked above could be okay, and I've had one like this before. Howver, you might be allowing some womanly perfume scents to spoil the manly odours of cigar, smoke, basement and damp cave normally associated with your stones.

In my experience, lacquer will penetrate where it needs to to stabilise a stone. This might involve fortifying a crack or weak area, and that might contact your blade when sharpening. It won't hurt your blade but will impact feel and slow things, so it's a trade off for making the stone stable. This isn't a concern for most stones with a good structure, though.


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## panda

asteger only licks the stinky ones.


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## Dazedandkasumi

I went ahead and bought some urethane laquer. Works on concrete among other things.I found shellac. It had to be ordered, and the price was about $50 for 100g. So after some googeling I found several posts were all sort of laquer have been used. I figured that the urethan laquer should work if nailpolish works. Hope that it dont soak the stone like water. Bummer if the stone turns into a urethane sponge&#128514;


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## Asteger

panda said:


> asteger only licks the stinky ones.



Explains my bad breath, I guess.

D&Kasumi - No way should shellac cost that much, and buying chips and and alcohol is even cheaper, while I've read that nailpolish also uses shellac, albeit with the aforementioned perfume too. At any rate, your stuff should still work fine. Good luck with it.


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## Dazedandkasumi

Asteger said:


> Explains my bad breath, I guess.
> 
> D&Kasumi - No way should shellac cost that much, and buying chips and and alcohol is even cheaper, while I've read that nailpolish also uses shellac, albeit with the aforementioned perfume too. At any rate, your stuff should still work fine. Good luck with it.



My bad, its like $50 for 300 g, not 100 as stated first. This was the chips kind. Anyway, still debating if I should go ahead and buy real shellac.


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## mkriggen

If you want to "keep it real", raw urushi lacquer can be ordered for about $50 for a 100g tube. Just search 'urushi lacquer' on ebay.

Be well,
Mikey


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## Asteger

Urushi followed by cashew are def the best, ie. they seal the best. Not so easy to apply and shellac's much easier. Cashew can't be shipped overseas (via air I guess) but urushi's okay. Both are pretty inexpensive in Jpn.


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## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Explains my bad breath, I guess.
> 
> D&Kasumi - No way should shellac cost that much, and buying chips and and alcohol is even cheaper, while I've read that nailpolish also uses shellac, albeit with the aforementioned perfume too. At any rate, your stuff should still work fine. Good luck with it.



Chips+alcohol works alway, and is definitely cheaper then Urushi+Jnats, you need some nice movie and a chair , and you get it all: chips, alcohol, movie, chair&#128540;&#128540;. 
Urishi is super-cool, but don't forget the hyper-high-risk-of-heavy-allergy because of urushiol. If you will be lucky not to get it, your neighbors can still be the not-so-lucky ones... It stinks as well, and it takes a lot of time to dry out. I have some stone sealed with Urushi, done by myself, it's the best protection btw, but really- no need to risk so much. Btw- it stinks a bit even dry. 
Cashew is good, but stinky and highly flammable. 
To me a good shellack is the best possible compromise. You can use it inside your kitchen, no allergic reactions caused by it, it smells chocolate &caramel&fudge , the only substance coming out in the air is the ethyl alcohol, which is "drinkable ", means not poisoning, leave it over the night- it's ok. Don't use warm water to wash the stones- you can dissolve shellack. Needs re-sealing after some time& heavy use ( constantly water contacts during long period of time)- as i told before- a compromise between natural-non toxic- still seals good- dissolves in time- quite quick dry out time( acceptable)
Other synthetic lacquers could be useful as well, but we are Jnut dudes here, maybe that's why we try to use as natural as possible &#128526;&#128526;&#128563;&#128563;


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## Dazedandkasumi

Hi guys
Takeshi has a couple of new saki-to stones. 6.5 and 7.0 hardness and particklesize 5.2.
Any usefull, or better stick to synthetics in gritrange?
There seems to be many opinions on saekis..
Thanks guys,

Andrey, you pushed me. Shellac on the way:thumbsup:

Geir


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## designdog

Saw those. Just below the vintage aoto that I gobbled up. Here is my advice to you, which I wish I had taken: get the best stones that are available and you can afford that are the "classics" :

a brick shaped, muddy aoto
a soft medium finisher, like takashima, hakka, hideriyama
a classic suita like ohira, shinden
a hard polishing stone like nakayama, show, ozuku
Sharpen lots of knives, of different steels and designs.

THEN, go after the quirkier stones like aizu, saeko, etc.

By not following my own advice, I find myself with several stones I am not using (not complaining) and still in need of a great finisher...


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## Asteger

I'm waiting to try a Saeki - haven't yet, but will receive one too (not from Aframes, JNS). However, they're from they same formerly mine-concentrated region as most aoto, and so they might be an alternative. People who've got them before have made them sound like they have similar +/- as aoto. 

Designdog - I don't get it. You've got several finishers already. Why don't you feel you have a 'great finisher'?

More on aoto - I've tried, I don't know, 10 of them maybe and never really fallen for any, even where others have. I wouldn't be the first to conclude I'm not an 'aoto guy' (even if, perhaps in part due to DD's enthusiasm, I've decided to try another). DD's recommended getting a 'muddy' aoto which is probably a good idea for most people (aoto, the 'king of knife stones') but I find you can grow out of these as the muddiness is messy, it's hard to see what you're doing, and things are less precise, which is why I prefer something a bit harder in this area. I like Aizu a lot - don't think it's 'quirky' but is pretty core for me - and also Numata, Kaisei, etc. I guess you need to try and experiment, or ma'e good guesses based on what sounds good for you.


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## Asteger

... Oh, one more comment about aoto: it's a well-known stone name whereas, yes, other names you might encounter might be seen as quirky. However, this probably has to do with most other non-finisher stone types having quite specific names which relate to their source mine/location. 'Aoto' (as I've droned on about) just means 'blue stone' and is a simple, easy to remember, catch-all type of name applied to all sorts of stones based on appearace/performance/etc, and so is bound to be familiar and reasurring and helps to sell, when in fact 'aoto' themselves, if accurately named according to their specific sources (not often known/ possible), would sound esoteric or quirky too.


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## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> I'm waiting to try a Saeki - haven't yet, but will receive one too (not from Aframes, JNS). However, they're from they same formerly mine-concentrated region as most aoto, and so they might be an alternative. People who've got them before have made them sound like they have similar +/- as aoto.
> 
> Designdog - I don't get it. You've got several finishers already. Why don't you feel you have a 'great finisher'?
> 
> More on aoto - I've tried, I don't know, 10 of them maybe and never really fallen for any, even where others have. I wouldn't be the first to conclude I'm not an 'aoto guy' (even if, perhaps in part due to DD's enthusiasm, I've decided to try another). DD's recommended getting a 'muddy' aoto which is probably a good idea for most people (aoto, the 'king of knife stones') but I find you can grow out of these as the muddiness is messy, it's hard to see what you're doing, and things are less precise, which is why I prefer something a bit harder in this area. I like Aizu a lot - don't think it's 'quirky' but is pretty core for me - and also Numata, Kaisei, etc. I guess you need to try and experiment, or ma'e good guesses based on what sounds good for you.



Here i would rather agree, Asteger, the muddy "Aoto" limits the control. 
I hate it . I am not only Awasedo guy, i prefer harder stones. They require more skills, but offer higher level. 
Reg Saeki- i tried many, generally speaking there are brownish and blackish Saeki, the brown ones are normally softer muddier stones, which i don't like, and the Black ones are on harder side. They can be a bit finer. Just a bit. I mean smaller particles. 
As to me they can not be used instead of Aoto, Aoto ( Aoto-like stones) are twice finer, where Saeki offers ca 2k. 
I have a selected Black Saeki, don't use it so much. You would like it, i suppose. The black version holds the form goid, the brown one dishes out quick. Not as quick as Omura, but anyway. Drinks a lot of water. Can be kept in water ( as far as i know, the *** sharpeners do it in this way) 
Does the job quickly, the scratch pattern is even. Better for harder steels. Good on carbons.


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## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Hi guys
> Takeshi has a couple of new saki-to stones. 6.5 and 7.0 hardness and particklesize 5.2.
> Any usefull, or better stick to synthetics in gritrange?
> There seems to be many opinions on saekis..
> Thanks guys,
> 
> Andrey, you pushed me. Shellac on the way:thumbsup:
> 
> Geir



Only one left . 
Not me . 
I prefer the Black Saeki. The brown one is normally softer& muddier. 
Drinks water as crazy. Not a splash&go stone. Because of water absorption. 
Not instead of Aoto. Ca 2-2,5 k. So to be used before Aoto
Brown Saekis are easier to use as Black Saekis. Lets round the corner quickly ( front part)- is good is you use advanced sharpening technics ( i profile my stones for different tasks) 
All-in-all - an affordable Jnat in 2-2,5k range, in this range you have better synthetics ( yes , even i say this!!! - but the natural stone has much longer life, and offers better feeling, other response. 
The brick is quite big as well, and nothing gives you the sense of stability better then a good brick. &#128526;&#128526;&#9996;&#65039;


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## Dazedandkasumi

Well when I was about to pull the trigger on another stone from that shop I accidently dropped in on JNS. Maxim had just put up some new stones. Some new small san-aotos, and a huge ataogoyama with a crack in. Could not help myselfe, just had to have both.

How do you recomand I should treat, and use the atagoyama with the crack. Maxim have glued it.

Cheers,
Geir


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## Andrey V

i saw that stone, sure. The cracked Atago is a very good investment indeed.
If i would need one- that would be a stone to catch.
I checked- Maxim has done good job- you still can reinforce it with extra glue and rice paper, if you want- that will be 300% sure.
The Atago in this size will last a life ( i mean it's life, not yours  - you can't polish it down, it's just huge.
It give good response as well, so happy you!!!
Congrats, fellow. I have several stones from Atago mountain , i like it a lot. It gives different stones, really different, my "beloved" 2 are Atago Momiji and "Red Aoto", which comes actually from the same mine of Atagoyama. 
The stone is a kind of "golden standard" - it doesn't mean i consider Atagoyama to be the best mine ever- i mean it's well balanced in hardness/finess/cutting speed.
Very easy to work with, suitable for any kind of steels, better carbons. It's like Nespresso Coffee Machine- the result you get is 85-90% as good as made in a real bar machine or Bialetti Brikka, but the efforts are incomparable - in means that a Nakayama Kiita or Okudo Suita or Ohira Suita etc will provide better results, but to get same size ( =stability when sharpening) for same price is a dream....
Congrats again! BTW- Maksim has very good Ikarashi - better to take this stone - it 's a fast cutter in pre-polishing segment ( 1000-1500 ca) - you'll have nice combo!!

BTW- JNS has a bunch of inexpensive Takashima now- odd shaped sometimes, but it doesn't influence the cutting ability of the stone- check it. I know you have- it's for other guys as well :wink::wink:


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## designdog

Andrey,

I looked at that Atago, and the other two huge ones that Maxsim has. I was favoring the one with the gouge out of the side, which should not influence sharpening.

The issue I have is that atagoyama seem to be all over the place. As you said, there is the "Red Aoto", a middle stone to be sure. Then there is the atagoyama kita, which is reported to be a world class finishing stone. I would very much like to have an Andrey-inspired world class finishing stone. I have a lot of great stones which are, perhaps, Asteger-inspired finishing stones, but which Andrey would consider mere starting points...


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## Asteger

designdog said:


> I would very much like to have an Andrey-inspired world class finishing stone. I have a lot of great stones which are, perhaps, Asteger-inspired finishing stones, but which Andrey would consider mere starting points...



Haha  True! He's not Andrey Awasedo for nothing and my finishers are his starters. Of course, I'd still try and steer people away from the 'finest is best' syndrome, although I do agree that some of the finest stones do have the most world-class prices (and keep the sellers happiest).

But Dave, I still imagine that you must have 1 or 2 already that are very fine, even if you aren't sure if they're world-class in terms of feel or ease of use or otherwise. I do understand the interest in trying more and seeing for yourself, though. 

Andrey, you should sell DD one of yours


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## panda

hell i finish some knives on ikarashi. i find 'awesados' useless in a functional sense, but if you like to polish knives as a hobby that's perfectly cool.


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## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Haha  True! He's not Andrey Awasedo for nothing and my finishers are his starters. Of course, I'd still try and steer people away from the 'finest is best' syndrome, although I do agree that some of the finest stones do have the most world-class prices (and keep the sellers happiest).
> 
> But Dave, I still imagine that you must have 1 or 2 already that are very fine, even if you aren't sure if they're world-class in terms of feel or ease of use or otherwise. I do understand the interest in trying more and seeing for yourself, though.
> 
> Andrey, you should sell DD one of yours



Asteger, are you sure you should " teach" people explaining them what the " should do"??
Isn't it up to everyone's expectations??
Again and again: to use on a line no need to use the fine Awasedos, unless you use Yanagiba. Explain me how to use toothy edge while thin raw fish cutting .. 
The Japanese sharpeners seem to be totally stupid to have used them during many years.. And for sure you know better then nobody needs the ultimate edge. 
As underlined many times, we discuss here by far not only the shortest way to the keen edge ( do we mean the same level??) but also the art &hobby. 
It could mean that different people could have different ideas on this field. Nothing more. Just more tolerance . 
I suppose you can't deny that the sharpening on high grit stones gives super feeling, doesn't it&#128526;&#128526;?


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## Andrey V

panda said:


> hell i finish some knives on ikarashi. i find 'awesados' useless in a functional sense, but if you like to polish knives as a hobby that's perfectly cool.



This is your choice, you can do whatever you want ! As far as it is useful for you. 
Some people sharpen their knives on a backside of the tea cup or piece if glass. Don't forget all the home sharpening systems, made mostly of metal. 
The topic starts when we take the real knives. With hard carbon cutting edge. Not PM, not VG 10 etc. 
toothy edge vs keen edge. Micro- serrator vs razor-sharp blade. As a line knife no need- can be dangerous as well. Better to make some strokes on a lower grit stone. 
But for a fine work, or as a home chef.. And for sure as a hobby, time- killing with fine job, why not???? To play with the steels&stones, isn't it nice hobby?? &#128526;&#128526;&#9996;&#65039;
And the quality of the cut... Ufffff...


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## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Andrey,
> 
> I looked at that Atago, and the other two huge ones that Maxsim has. I was favoring the one with the gouge out of the side, which should not influence sharpening.
> 
> The issue I have is that atagoyama seem to be all over the place. As you said, there is the "Red Aoto", a middle stone to be sure. Then there is the atagoyama kita, which is reported to be a world class finishing stone. I would very much like to have an Andrey-inspired world class finishing stone. I have a lot of great stones which are, perhaps, Asteger-inspired finishing stones, but which Andrey would consider mere starting points...



If you need really great stones, you have to keep your eyes on some more expensive ones... It's sad, they go up and up in price. But i tell you the feeling when sharpen... And the quality of the cut. Amazing!! 
Don't forget one important point: the sharpining on Awasedos reinforce the cutting edge. This is the fact- check it. So this is not only the finish ( though nothing can give you this nice contrast between Jigane and Hagane) - i showed the difference on 2 sides of Shigefusa Kuroushi Petty in this thread- this is the quality of the cutting edge of your knife. To say- it brings nothing, only nuts use expensive stones- means the same as to buy expensive shoes and never use the proper care, just washing them up.
I suppose you do agree that not every shoe creme match your nice shoes- same with your skin, your hairs, etc etc etc. some don't care, if you do, welcome to the club !


----------



## Andrey V

The regular Atago is ok, but the Atago Kiita if from another league
Aiiwatani Kiita is just awesome- Maxim has managed to get some - i couldn't help falling in love as soon as a had tried it - it is really good - can be compared with Nakayama, but is more affordable. Very fine, very good response.
Okudo Suita- i love them- they are quite hard ( normally), but can be softer- need as all the great stones an experienced user ( Shinden as well)
Ohira Suita is always a good solution- but mostly quite regular, only some are awesome. They are my favorites, i have tried so many and possess many- but among them there is ONE REAL DIAMOND only.. The last one Ohira Karasu is awesome as well- almost 3 kg brick in a almost perfect rectangular form...NICE>>>
Nakayama remains always a topic as well- i have tried so many- i have many, even Maruka- well- Naka is Naka - not to say a lot- super fine, not so quick, rather quick, but gives the edge of your dream..
The only problem is the consistently upcoming price for these beautiful stones. Many friends believe it is only for silly users, well, let it be so.
But try to find your own way and enjoy it, that's all, fellow..


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## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Asteger, are you sure you should " teach" people explaining them what the " should do"?? Isn't it up to everyone's expectations??



Nope, didn't say anything like that at all. Just read again above. 

In DD's case, I'm curious what he's after, as he already has several fine stones. Sounds like he's hoping to go finer? The problem is, what is a 'world class finisher'? It's not just about being fine, and is probably an elusive idea too.

I also mentioned the 'finer is better syndrome'. Looking at JNS 1 or 2 days ago, there were about 50 stones listed in stock for sale 'for knives' of which all but 2 were finishers (exceptions: ikarashi, san aoto). Aframes had more non-awasedo, but was similar in skew. People could be forgiven for assuming that jnats were only about fine and expensive finishers, when for most purposes the traditional nakato is probably a better focus. It should be possible to enjoy a natural or two and not be poor.


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## designdog

Here is my view on Japanese Natural Stones:

I have been buying and using these Japanese knives for several years now. Probably have about fifty by now, and use them every day. Because I have so many and I alternate, there was no compelling reason to sharpen that often. Every year I would take a week and sharpen them with my Choseras. My knives are pretty much all carbon, with a few ginsan. Pretty much all double bevel, with about twelve single bevel knives.

Last year I reignited my interest in the knives and in sharpening. Got some very nice synthetic stones, learned a bit more, and began to really enjoy sharpening. What was once a chore has become a relaxation. My typical synthetic stone progression was 1K, 2K, 4K, 8k, 10k. Not that I ever needed to go that far, but I enjoyed the sharpening, and I liked the polishing and the feel of a razor sharp edge when I finished. 

Recently I moved on to natural stones, and only use synthetics for repair (not really needed) or bevel setting (a contentious argument.) And I am enjoying the act of sharpening even more. So I am not preparing a tool for work in the kitchen, sorry. To me the act of sharpening is as enjoyable as the act of knife weilding.

I will never be a collector. Just does not work for me. Yes, I like to obtain several different elements of a hobby (camera lenses, golf clubs, copper pans) but it is all about using them, not looking at them. I seem to have acquired several stones in two groups:

*Aoto Class
*

hard Aoto
 Okabana Aoto
 JNS red Aoto
 vintage Aoto
 Aizu

*Medium Finisher Class*


Yaginoshima Asagi
 Hideriyama
 Takashima Myokakudani Suita
 Hakka fine grit
 Shinden Yama Renge Suita
 Ohira Renge Suita
 Shobu Iromono
 Nakayama Suita




Of course all of these stones are different, and using them is a pleasure. Also, I have found that my opinion of a stone can change the more I use it. The Nakayama, for example, enhanced with a Mejiro Nagura, produces much more swarf and seems finer than when I first approached it.
A poorly executed album of photos of these stones can be seen here: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dahdog/sets/72157648586461404/

However, it has been pointed out to me that, while I seem to have some very nice stones, I dont have that world class finisher. The stone that is not too hard, but is unbelievably fine. And does not cost more that $500 Both Taksehi and Maxsim are working on this for me. I really do appreciate the guidance of Aster and Andrey, and others here...


----------



## vinster

designdog said:


> However, it has been pointed out to me that, while I seem to have some very nice stones, I dont have that world class finisher. The stone that is not too hard, but is unbelievably fine. And does not cost more that $500 Both Taksehi and Maxsim are working on this for me. I really do appreciate the guidance of Aster and Andrey, and others here...



Just be aware -- there's somewhat of a loose inverse relationship between hardness and fineness. The really fine stones are generally also hard. Of your listed stones above, are the last 4 (shinden, ohira, shobu iromono, and nakayama) not fine enough?

Generally speaking, most nakayamas available are going to be quite fine -- on average it's up there among the finest of the mines. I have a couple of stones that I'd call very fine, while still soft enough to leave an even finish on my single bevels. The shobu iromono is one of them. It's possible to find one for under $500, but it'll definitely take some work.


----------



## vinster

Andrey V said:


> The regular Atago is ok, but the Atago Kiita if from another league
> Aiiwatani Kiita is just awesome- Maxim has managed to get some - i couldn't help falling in love as soon as a had tried it - it is really good - can be compared with Nakayama, but is more affordable. Very fine, very good response.
> Okudo Suita- i love them- they are quite hard ( normally), but can be softer- need as all the great stones an experienced user ( Shinden as well)
> Ohira Suita is always a good solution- but mostly quite regular, only some are awesome. They are my favorites, i have tried so many and possess many- but among them there is ONE REAL DIAMOND only.. The last one Ohira Karasu is awesome as well- almost 3 kg brick in a almost perfect rectangular form...NICE>>>
> Nakayama remains always a topic as well- i have tried so many- i have many, even Maruka- well- Naka is Naka - not to say a lot- super fine, not so quick, rather quick, but gives the edge of your dream..
> The only problem is the consistently upcoming price for these beautiful stones. Many friends believe it is only for silly users, well, let it be so.
> But try to find your own way and enjoy it, that's all, fellow..



Just to provide a counter to what AV said:

I have a few "atago" stones from JNS and elsewhere, including a couple kiita. The color itself doesn't indicate anything about the performance of the stone. I find atago mines to be middle of the road stones. Not too fine, not too hard, not too fast. It's not as popular a mine as some of the others, so these stones can be found at a lower price point, and in large sizes. 

I have a beautiful aiiwatani kiita stone. It's fast cutting, and not too hard, but it's not as fine as a fine nakayama can be.

Even though nakayamas tend to be super fine, there are plenty of duds out there as well.


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> Also, I have found that my opinion of a stone can change the more I use it..



For me this happens a lot, in both ways. I can get bored of a nice stone and so shelve it or sell it. (I try to not keep too many.). Sometimes some don't 'click" at first, but then seem totally different when using them 6 or 12 mos later. I think of it sort of as having a music collection and how your feelings about songs change over time, and maybe you 'discover' a new fav you'd had all along for a few years given the right circumstances. But also, because perceptions can change, it's another reason why identifying a 'best' or 'world class' stone can be elusive.



vinster said:


> Just be aware -- there's somewhat of a loose inverse relationship between hardness and fineness. The really fine stones are generally also hard. Of your listed stones above, are the last 4 (shinden, ohira, shobu iromono, and nakayama) not fine enough? ... Generally speaking, most nakayamas available are going to be quite fine -- on average it's up there among the finest of the mines. I have a couple of stones that I'd call very fine, while still soft enough to leave an even finish on my single bevels. The shobu iromono is one of them.


. 

+1 on all this. DD, your 'medium finisher' tag sounds appropriate for Hakka, Takashima, and some suita, but as said you might already have a 'fine finisher' or two that should give you that extra fineness. 

It's pretty easy to get quite fine stones. Not too special of a quality. For eg, I still have a small Shobu 100-gata from JNS intended for razors - cost $40 or so 2-3 years ago, should be the same now - which is too hard for knives. And so, if you want a 'world class fine finisher' then in addition to fineness your stone has to give a little, and have some softness that'll work with non-straight blades, contours, etc.. 

Another quality I'd add to the list for a world class finisher is the colour. As V indicates (and DD knows, so saying this more for others) colour doesn't influence performance in most respects. However, it can in so far as lighter stones (yellow 'kita', white 'shiro' mediums and suita, light green/blue 'ao' mediums, etc) are easier to work with visually when you can read your slurry and swarf better as compared to on darker stones (such as typical aoto) or on very muddy/messy stones (eg. 'red aoto' Atago).

As for the comments on Atago stones, I haven't tried that many but was a bit surprised by Andrey's endorsement, although he did say they're something like 85% of equivalents. I'd tend to agree with what V said above, based on experience/impressions, and I imagine what's being sold is decent but that's it's out there because that's what's available, it's less sought after, and there's more supply.


----------



## Andrey V

vinster said:


> Just to provide a counter to what AV said:
> 
> I have a few "atago" stones from JNS and elsewhere, including a couple kiita. The color itself doesn't indicate anything about the performance of the stone. I find atago mines to be middle of the road stones. Not too fine, not too hard, not too fast. It's not as popular a mine as some of the others, so these stones can be found at a lower price point, and in large sizes.
> 
> I have a beautiful aiiwatani kiita stone. It's fast cutting, and not too hard, but it's not as fine as a fine nakayama can be.
> 
> Even though nakayamas tend to be super fine, there are plenty of duds out there as well.



Vinster, here we say the same,, actually, maybe i have to confirm your words or be more precize: 
-Atago is really in the middle, Kiita is not a warranty , it's clear
Saying about " golden standard" i mean, that most people consider something to be golden standard sometimes really from the middle. Generally speaking it is so. A compromise. You can't consider something unreachable from the very top to be a standard- the people won't reach it... Atago is more available. And i tried one Atago Kiita which was just WOW. Just perfect from any side. Ideal ( to me) in term of hardness/ cutting speed/particle size. Btw- it was Kiita in it's typical color. It was a sold stone.. 
Aiiwatani Kiita - i have a stone with similar-to-yours features. I told- in can be used " à la place" of Nakayama, because having similar features is much more affordable. But of course not as fine in particle size as same level Nakayama. Btw- i have noticed, that Nakayama is not that super-fast-cutting. I have several, inkl quite expensive Nakayamas, all selected, some real jewels, but i have faster stones from other mines. Nakayama can't be beaten in term of finenesse. Here is is the king. 
So actually shared my ideas what to do if you don't want to spend too much for best stones.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> For me this happens a lot, in both ways. I can get bored of a nice stone and so shelve it or sell it. (I try to not keep too many.). Sometimes some don't 'click" at first, but then seem totally different when using them 6 or 12 mos later. I think of it sort of as having a music collection and how your feelings about songs change over time, and maybe you 'discover' a new fav you'd had all along for a few years given the right circumstances. But also, because perceptions can change, it's another reason why identifying a 'best' or 'world class' stone can be elusive.
> 
> .
> 
> +1 on all this. DD, your 'medium finisher' tag sounds appropriate for Hakka, Takashima, and some suita, but as said you might already have a 'fine finisher' or two that should give you that extra fineness.
> 
> It's pretty easy to get quite fine stones. Not too special of a quality. For eg, I still have a small Shobu 100-gata from JNS intended for razors - cost $40 or so 2-3 years ago, should be the same now - which is too hard for knives. And so, if you want a 'world class fine finisher' then in addition to fineness your stone has to give a little, and have some softness that'll work with non-straight blades, contours, etc..
> 
> Another quality I'd add to the list for a world class finisher is the colour. As V indicates (and DD knows, so saying this more for others) colour doesn't influence performance in most respects. However, it can in so far as lighter stones (yellow 'kita', white 'shiro' mediums and suita, light green/blue 'ao' mediums, etc) are easier to work with visually when you can read your slurry and swarf better as compared to on darker stones (such as typical aoto) or on very muddy/messy stones (eg. 'red aoto' Atago).
> 
> As for the comments on Atago stones, I haven't tried that many but was a bit surprised by Andrey's endorsement, although he did say they're something like 85% of equivalents. I'd tend to agree with what V said above, based on experience/impressions, and I imagine what's being sold is decent but that's it's out there because that's what's available, it's less sought after, and there's more supply.



Like " equivalents" 
I should better mark it like this. 
Was just to explain. If you remember my general point of view, it is so: every stone differs from another, there are some general features from mine to mine, from layer to layer, but anyway there is no guaranty to get the expected features just buying by name. 
This is what i think if to be precise. 
You can get **** from a very well known quarry , you can get a jewel from not-so-popular one. It's the nature. 
It makes the hunting funny. 
We are limited in term of sourses, even if we know all the best sellers all around the world. Because they get their stones to sell them from limited sources as well. We do not have direct contacts to stone warehouses in Japan, and after all we have invented a method of collecting, liking, talking, ( HOBBY) the Jnats, though these are the tools to keep the edges keen. So we play the game we've entered and we try to justify all we put in ( money, time, efforts)
If to look at it under this angle, it justifies all we say here . 
So let us play in this small sand-box . 
Who of us really needs so much stones&knives? Who of us is reasonable? No, really? I do not say" more or less". Generally speaking?? &#128526;&#128526;&#9996;&#65039; 
So we just "adjust" rules of the " sand-box" , not more, not less, saying about all these features, advises etc. That is why i say- no fight, if it brings some fun- ok. 
The DD set up looks ok, maybe he feels he needs a new toy, that's all folks! Maybe the fine finishers are not the best ( i told my p.o.v - the name is not a guaranty of nothing) - DD- i have got , i suppose, your message: you like to continue the game, like we all do, that's all. So no need to stop or speed him up. Just a new toy to get more fun. I have over 50 high end knives, lime DD. I understand the reasons - he told here- just for fun. So, fellows, it beyond the reasons or sense or something else. Again : let's have fun!! &#128526;&#9996;&#65039;


----------



## designdog

Guys! To clarify a few comments above:

- I appreciate the softer (as opposed to really soft, poor quality) aotos I have (the JNS red and the vintage from Takeshi) because they to a great job of "hazing up" the knife after using a coarser stone. There harder aotos act more like a medium hardness stone, without that "magic." I cannot seem to make my single bevel knives look as new without the softer aoto and the Hakka. When sharpening double bevel I use the harder aoto.

- I realize that I don't really "need" another jNat, and that I, not a collector, have mostly topped out on my jNat requirements. But I do not have a kita, awasedo, or whatever you would like to call that final stone. Maybe its an Okudo - don't have one of those yet :big grin:

- One thing not discussed is size. I know it is ludicrous (I will be seventy years old next week) but I don't like those skinny, thin stones. Don't exactly need a 24, but I like the big ones. My Shobu and my Shinden are great stones, but you have to really concentrate when using them, as one is too narrow, and one is too short.


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## vinster

Andrey V said:


> Saying about " golden standard" i mean, that most people consider something to be golden standard sometimes really from the middle. Generally speaking it is so. A compromise. You can't consider something unreachable from the very top to be a standard- the people won't reach it...



Thanks for clarifying. This was the source of my confusion. I'm used to hearing the term "gold standard" as it pertains to being the absolute best of something...

I agree with you on nakayamas not being the fastest. I have many stones that are faster than my nakayamas. Okudo has a reputation for being fast cutting, but of course there are exceptions to that.


----------



## Andrey V

vinster said:


> Thanks for clarifying. This was the source of my confusion. I'm used to hearing the term "gold standard" as it pertains to being the absolute best of something...
> 
> I agree with you on nakayamas not being the fastest. I have many stones that are faster than my nakayamas. Okudo has a reputation for being fast cutting, but of course there are exceptions to that.



Happy to have clarified it for you as well &#9996;&#65039;&#128077;. 
Okudo are great.. But the great ones are normally expensive ones.. My cheapest Okudo has been bought for ca 400$, but is nothing , not interesting. The other 3 or 4 are at least twice more expensive, and i tell you it's the high- end class... They all are different, quite hard ( i like reasonably hard stones, not razor-hard, but quite hard, 4 of 5)
Okudo is Okudo... Just great. Sad it becomes so expensive.


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## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Guys! To clarify a few comments above:
> 
> - I appreciate the softer (as opposed to really soft, poor quality) aotos I have (the JNS red and the vintage from Takeshi) because they to a great job of "hazing up" the knife after using a coarser stone. There harder aotos act more like a medium hardness stone, without that "magic." I cannot seem to make my single bevel knives look as new without the softer aoto and the Hakka. When sharpening double bevel I use the harder aoto.
> 
> - I realize that I don't really "need" another jNat, and that I, not a collector, have mostly topped out on my jNat requirements. But I do not have a kita, awasedo, or whatever you would like to call that final stone. Maybe its an Okudo - don't have one of those yet :big grin:
> 
> - One thing not discussed is size. I know it is ludicrous (I will be seventy years old next week) but I don't like those skinny, thin stones. Don't exactly need a 24, but I like the big ones. My Shobu and my Shinden are great stones, but you have to really concentrate when using them, as one is too narrow, and one is too short.



DD, the size does matter, not because it sounds good , but because of stability it provides. 
As you have already understood the smaller stones are wobbly, or short, or or or... They require the base etc. 
the bigger stones ( 24 or other size) don't have all these "negative "features. Sometimes a big stone with a brocken corner or some odd shape can be significantly more affordable in comparison to same in good shape. One of my last Nakayama Kiita without one corner has cost me around 1000, while the same quality in perfect square had a price over 2500... BTW-" meditation" quality.. &#128526;&#128526;&#128077;
A thick stone ( from 3 cm) gives the nice feeling, after all you can work more intense on it. 
I like to shape my stones, because i use them not only for knives, but for other stuff as well ( sables, swords, hunting knives etc). The thin stone limits you ..


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## Dazedandkasumi

Guys, while Im waiting on that atagoyama from Maxim Im a bit curios on how the atagoyama stands compared to the takasima I have.


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## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Guys, while Im waiting on that atagoyama from Maxim Im a bit curios on how the atagoyama stands compared to the takasima I have.



Takashima is softer & a bit coarser. 
It's more Hakka - yish.  
Atago is finer, a bit harder, it means it will leave more mirror-like polished edge. Not too glossy ( for this you need higher grit stones like your Nakayama or Shinden), but anyway. 
I would recommend to put in into progression after Takashima. 
BTW- my new GREAT Aoto - a huge brick, very cool one. Now under Urushi.


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## Dazedandkasumi

Thanks Andrey&#9786;
Did you snap that aoto from Maxim?
I saw he had two big ones for a short moment..

What do you think about those hard binsuis he have?
From older posts they seem to have some love from some people..
Any good for kasumi finish?


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Thanks Andrey&#9786;
> Did you snap that aoto from Maxim?
> I saw he had two big ones for a short moment..
> 
> What do you think about those hard binsuis he have?
> From older posts they seem to have some love from some people..
> Any good for kasumi finish?



JNS had 2: the normal one and the huge one, the last one is mine &#128526;&#9996;&#65039;. 
Better take his Ikarashi- it's very good for a coarse stone ( though many friends here consider it to be medium). 
I'm not a big fan of Binsui. I have a better version ( bought as Jyun Haka- there are some links with this or similar name , but from appearance is a good Binsui). Reg Kasumi- IMHO you need a finer stone to get real Kasumi, on Binsui it will be just scratched mat. If we consider any scratched non- glossy finish to be Kasumi, then yes, but i have my doubts &#128526;. 
To me it starts when you see the clouds ( foggy silvery finish) without visible scratches. And this is not Binsui. Maksim has good quality Binsui if you really need it, the stone is good as a pre-polisher or bevel-setter, but his JNS 300-800-1000 are even better& quicker. I really think the good artificial stones beat naturals in lower grit. Though i still prefer Shapton Glass Pro 500 for this type of work. The sound and response while sharpening is unpleasant, not to compare with Jnats, but it does the job efficiently. I use Binsui( Binsui like stones) not that often, more staying Jnat fan rather then having other reasons. I'm even seriously thinking of getting JNS's coarser 300-800...
Not the question of money, they are more then affordable, it's a question of changing the mind &#128540;&#128526;.


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Takashima is softer & a bit coarser. It's more Hakka - yish.
> Atago is finer, a bit harder, it means it will leave more mirror-like polished edge. Not too glossy ( for this you need higher grit stones like your Nakayama or Shinden) MMM



Nakayama, Shinden ...Oops, Andrey, I think you've confused DesignDog & Dazed&Kasumi. :dazed: D&K just asked about Takashima, Atago & binsui above. Meanwhile, DD asked previously about Atago and he's the one with Nakayama and Shinden. Hope you haven't confused me too! 

Nice aoto, by the way. Do you know the origin? As said, I going to try some more aoto. DD's recent influence.

D&K - You asked about binsui from JNS. I haven't tried one from Maxim, but have tried other 'binsui'-type stoness and have some still. There's no confirmation, but JNS must be white Amakusa. ('Binsui' is a stone class, not an origin name.) White Amakusa are generally the better-regarded Amakusa, and can be good stones but are perhaps not prestige stones because they're inconsistent and inexpensive (hey, when prices are higher with stones people assume higher quality) because I think the mine(s) are still active. I'm guessing the JNS binsui would be nice,, a bit below 1k in fineness, but considering their size/weight it might not be worth buying one from JNS unless you also get the free shipping. I have a nice old white Amakusa with a vintage sticker and green stripes, it feels very nice and cuts quickly in around 600 or 800.. Usually, a stone like this could be called a lower-medium, but it's kind of on the cusp of being 'coarse'.

The other option mentioned, the Ikarashi, is a good one. It's a bit finer, a more practical fineness for most purposes starting around 1k, and they're generally all consistent and the same. However, the JNS ones are small and need lapping/shaping to get the most out of them, and that will take some work with a good diamond plate. It's also on the hard side, and so if you want a softer natural medium, then no.


----------



## designdog

Some thoughts:

*Aoto*
For some reason, these are becoming available again. I have five stones in this general area. Two are bona fide aotos. One was sold to me as an aoto, but I have my doubts. One is a JNS "red aoto." The last is not an aoto at all, but an Aizu.
The hard aoto is a big Okabana, 180x75x65. It is very hard for an aoto, and a bit finer. I use a tomo nagura on this one, but once I get it going, it is a pleasure to work with.
The "vintage" aoto came from Imanishi stock. At 228x70x65 it looks like your classic aoto, complete with sticker at the end. Performs like one as well, with immediate slurry, and a lot of it.
The next aoto is 200x70x30. It is harder, takes a while to make slurry, and feels quite smooth in use. Got it from a highly regarded Japanese supplier, who said it was highest quality. If it wasn't so dark I would say it was a Tsushima. Need more time with this one.
The JNS red aoto is well reviewed here. Mine is 207x73x34 and is a very good one. Like the vintage aoto there is a lot of slurry early on. This stone creates a burr  unlike my other aotos.
I am still in the learning curve on the Aizu, and as such do not appreciate it as well. It is 192x67x53. Not much slurry, sharpens OK, nothing magical  as yet.

The typical, softer aotos (not too soft!) are great for kasumi finishing, but I prefer the harder ones for double bevel knives. With the softer stones you really need to focus on the water content; you will be bouncing off a rubber stone, or getting hung up in a ton of mud. But that is where the magic is.
A good harder aoto will perform in the 2-4k range, will give up enough slurry for sharpening, not kasumi, will feel smooth but not rock hard.

*Atagoyama*
I keep looking at that big one Maxsim has. Just don't know what it will do for me!

*Final Finisher*
Still looking. An Aiiwatani was recommended, but it was only 24mm thick. Found a great stone, not too hard, and fine grit. Good size and shape. No name, found in an old Japanese barbershop. Perfect for me. But, in looking for it, discovered it previously sold. Bummer.


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Some thoughts:
> 
> *Aoto*
> For some reason, these are becoming available again. I have five stones in this general area. Two are bona fide aotos. One was sold to me as an aoto, but I have my doubts. One is a JNS "red aoto." The last is not an aoto at all, but an Aizu.
> The hard aoto is a big Okabana, 180x75x65. It is very hard for an aoto, and a bit finer. I use a tomo nagura on this one, but once I get it going, it is a pleasure to work with.
> The "vintage" aoto came from Imanishi stock. At 228x70x65 it looks like your classic aoto, complete with sticker at the end. Performs like one as well, with immediate slurry, and a lot of it.
> The next aoto is 200x70x30. It is harder, takes a while to make slurry, and feels quite smooth in use. Got it from a highly regarded Japanese supplier, who said it was highest quality. If it wasn't so dark I would say it was a Tsushima. Need more time with this one.
> The JNS red aoto is well reviewed here. Mine is 207x73x34 and is a very good one. Like the vintage aoto there is a lot of slurry early on. This stone creates a burr  unlike my other aotos.
> I am still in the learning curve on the Aizu, and as such do not appreciate it as well. It is 192x67x53. Not much slurry, sharpens OK, nothing magical  as yet.
> 
> The typical, softer aotos (not too soft!) are great for kasumi finishing, but I prefer the harder ones for double bevel knives. With the softer stones you really need to focus on the water content; you will be bouncing off a rubber stone, or getting hung up in a ton of mud. But that is where the magic is.
> A good harder aoto will perform in the 2-4k range, will give up enough slurry for sharpening, not kasumi, will feel smooth but not rock hard.
> 
> *Atagoyama*
> I keep looking at that big one Maxsim has. Just don't know what it will do for me!
> 
> *Final Finisher*
> Still looking. An Aiiwatani was recommended, but it was only 24mm thick. Found a great stone, not too hard, and fine grit. Good size and shape. No name, found in an old Japanese barbershop. Perfect for me. But, in looking for it, discovered it previously sold. Bummer.



Your " Red Aoto" / from Atagoyama should be reddish. Mine is greenish. The greenish versions are harder+ just a bit finer. Less muddy. I tested some- they are great, really. I had 2 reddish, very muddy, i sold them and bought this one bigger version. I like it. Maksim had a 50 mm thick version, it was more expensive, i hesitated, it was sold immediately.. Mine is ca 4 cm thick. Nice brick as well. Reg their ability to raise a burr... Fantastic, really. Jnats don't raise it that easy, especially on carbons. 
I had some " modern" Aotos in smaller sizes, like JNS /Metalmaster/ etc offer. Gave them all to my friends. The best i've ever tried is one at JNS ( in Maksim's privat collection) and mine, if we talk about "Aoto Aoto". 
They are often quite hard ( like yours from Okabana) or too soft/ muddy, and i agree completely with your description how it performs/ acts. Water control....
Aiiwa can be good even in 25( though mine is thicker). It's fine& heavy, very consistent. That's why so heavy. 
Good even without a base. The first Aiiwa Kiita i've tried was a pocket hone. Under 20 mm, quite small. Still very good to use. 
Ohira is affordable ( more or less) in a good size/shape, but not the Red Ohira, the Suita. I love'em...
Aiiwa is finer then Ohira Suita, if i use them together, i put Aiiwa after Ohira, gives very nice results. But Okudo or Nakayama is finer again. There are so many stones offering an ultimate edge, nicely mirror- polished, shiny , reflecting the sunshine like a very good mirror.. Nice..


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Nakayama, Shinden ...Oops, Andrey, I think you've confused DesignDog & Dazed&Kasumi. :dazed: D&K just asked about Takashima, Atago & binsui above. Meanwhile, DD asked previously about Atago and he's the one with Nakayama and Shinden. Hope you haven't confused me too!
> 
> Nice aoto, by the way. Do you know the origin? As said, I going to try some more aoto. DD's recent influence.
> 
> D&K - You asked about binsui from JNS. I haven't tried one from Maxim, but have tried other 'binsui'-type stoness and have some still. There's no confirmation, but JNS must be white Amakusa. ('Binsui' is a stone class, not an origin name.) White Amakusa are generally the better-regarded Amakusa, and can be good stones but are perhaps not prestige stones because they're inconsistent and inexpensive (hey, when prices are higher with stones people assume higher quality) because I think the mine(s) are still active. I'm guessing the JNS binsui would be nice,, a bit below 1k in fineness, but considering their size/weight it might not be worth buying one from JNS unless you also get the free shipping. I have a nice old white Amakusa with a vintage sticker and green stripes, it feels very nice and cuts quickly in around 600 or 800.. Usually, a stone like this could be called a lower-medium, but it's kind of on the cusp of being 'coarse'.
> 
> The other option mentioned, the Ikarashi, is a good one. It's a bit finer, a more practical fineness for most purposes starting around 1k, and they're generally all consistent and the same. However, the JNS ones are small and need lapping/shaping to get the most out of them, and that will take some work with a good diamond plate. It's also on the hard side, and so if you want a softer natural medium, then no.



**** happens . Sorry guys, was a bit tired, have confured while quick reading /answering DD and DK- my personal excuses &#128526;&#128526;

Confirm the Asteger's speech about Bunsui/Amakusa 
As already told, Ikarashi is a better choice, requires more skills, is harder as well, if to order from Maxim( i tried many of his Ikarashi- all very similar= consistent) you'd better use his offer to lap it on his sand belt. Otherwise it will be a nightmare. It's very hard to do by hand. The stone needs lacquering, it drinks water like a hoarse . But dies the job properly. Very efficient stone indeed. And so unique because of it's color and smell.. Nice, really nice. It shows it's readiness by color- as soon as it becomes quite intense blueish- greenish- it's ready to be used. One of the kind.


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Asteger said:


> Nakayama, Shinden ...Oops, Andrey, I think you've confused DesignDog & Dazed&Kasumi. :dazed: D&K just asked about Takashima, Atago & binsui above. Meanwhile, DD asked previously about Atago and he's the one with Nakayama and Shinden. Hope you haven't confused me too!
> 
> Nice aoto, by the way. Do you know the origin? As said, I going to try some more aoto. DD's recent influence.
> 
> D&K - You asked about binsui from JNS. I haven't tried one from Maxim, but have tried other 'binsui'-type stoness and have some still. There's no confirmation, but JNS must be white Amakusa. ('Binsui' is a stone class, not an origin name.) White Amakusa are generally the better-regarded Amakusa, and can be good stones but are perhaps not prestige stones because they're inconsistent and inexpensive (hey, when prices are higher with stones people assume higher quality) because I think the mine(s) are still active. I'm guessing the JNS binsui would be nice,, a bit below 1k in fineness, but considering their size/weight it might not be worth buying one from JNS unless you also get the free shipping. I have a nice old white Amakusa with a vintage sticker and green stripes, it feels very nice and cuts quickly in around 600 or 800.. Usually, a stone like this could be called a lower-medium, but it's kind of on the cusp of being 'coarse'.
> 
> The other option mentioned, the Ikarashi, is a good one. It's a bit finer, a more practical fineness for most purposes starting around 1k, and they're generally all consistent and the same. However, the JNS ones are small and need lapping/shaping to get the most out of them, and that will take some work with a good diamond plate. It's also on the hard side, and so if you want a softer natural medium, then no.



:dazedK, DD D&K, lots of D's. No wonder we get lost in translation:laugh: 

First of all, I really apriciate all the help and info from you guys. This is a great subforum indeed

When I asked for that binsui it was kind of because I want a natural stone in the 2-4'ish grit range. From older posts I kind of got the impression that hard JNS "binsui" have some folowers. JNS have been sold out for some time, so when it reapered I wantet to her your impression first hand. Ikarishi is a better choice as I understand it, but not perfect. Aizu have been mention, but hard to come by. Aotos are hit and miss.. I guess Ill just stick to the JNS synth red aoto until something worthy shows up. 

Cheers,

Geir


----------



## designdog

Tried this progression a bit earlier: Natsuya, Hard Aoto, Hideriyama, Shinden Renge Suita. Sharpened a Japan Tool special 225mm Heiji santoku, one of my favorite knives.

The hard aoto, as mentioned previously, produces little slurry, but is very smooth. (This is not the Okabana.) I am growing to like it. 

The Hideriyama is a serviceable no brainier of a stone. Also somewhat boring.

The Shinden is wide, short, and, like a lot of wide and short people, full of personality. Makes immediate black slurry, but not too much.

I was thinking the end result not as good as I hoped, then realized this knife is Heiji's special stainless, or whatever, but much harder than the typical carbon I sharpen. Probably needs some more reps on the Shinden, or on a Nakayama.

Re the final polishing stone: the key descriptive is not too hard, but very fine. Maxsim just rates hardness, while Takeshi does hardness and fineness. On his scale, something around 8.7 on hardness and 9.2 on fineness is perfect. Maxsim has them, but they are $1,000 +!


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Tried this progression a bit earlier: Natsuya, Hard Aoto, Hideriyama, Shinden Renge Suita. Sharpened a Japan Tool special 225mm Heiji santoku, one of my favorite knives.
> 
> The hard aoto, as mentioned previously, produces little slurry, but is very smooth. (This is not the Okabana.) I am growing to like it.
> 
> The Hideriyama is a serviceable no brainier of a stone. Also somewhat boring.
> 
> The Shinden is wide, short, and, like a lot of wide and short people, full of personality. Makes immediate black slurry, but not too much.
> 
> I was thinking the end result not as good as I hoped, then realized this knife is Heiji's special stainless, or whatever, but much harder than the typical carbon I sharpen. Probably needs some more reps on the Shinden, or on a Nakayama.
> 
> Re the final polishing stone: the key descriptive is not too hard, but very fine. Maxsim just rates hardness, while Takeshi does hardness and fineness. On his scale, something around 8.7 on hardness and 9.2 on fineness is perfect. Maxsim has them, but they are $1,000 +!



You know, DD ( now i check better the nicknames, Maksim doesn't rate by hardness only, his rating includes fineness as well. When it is 5- it's like 9 fine/ 9-9,2 hard at Aframes. I agree, Takeshi does is more "understandable" , i talked to Maksim reg this matter, but he keeps his system. Ok, we have to understand the systems used by our trusted sellers. Takeshi from MM has his system as well... 
If to talk about your wish to get the ultimate finisher, 9/9,2 in Takeshi ratings is a hard razor stone, some fine Asagi, or even Mizu Asagi. Very fine but very hard. 
Why??? This stone can already start to scratch your blade... 
I tried these stones. I even possess some. They give "soapy" effect, the knife is sliding on the surface like there is nothing to hit. 
I have very fine& hard great finishers: Goby from Totoriya, one of the kind, Hakka Karasu deep layer ( hating Hakka, this one is something special, very hard, but very fast), Ohira Karasu ( very cool super-fine deep layer stone, fast cutter), Okudo Sunashi deep layer- my special live, Nakayamas ( from older barber- shops stones-razor stones, actually- to Maruka extra fine and hard). These stones can be used as final finishers even after any fine Suita. But it took time to find them.....
So i would say 9/9,2, or Maksim's lv5 is too much. Always hard to take these ratings, because you can have Suita with it. .. 
So , if you really need/want such a stone, you have to wait, until it finds you. 
Btw- you seem to have a standard Hideriyama- i call it " either fish nor meat". No emotion. Just a sharpening stone. I still think a good Ohira Renge Suita from JNS would make you happy . &#128526;&#128591;&#128077;. Maksim receives very good ones, even his normal ones for 400-600$ are very good. Very versatile stones. Hard to find a real jewel, but hard to get real sh.t as well .


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> The hard aoto, as mentioned previously, produces little slurry, but is very smooth. (This is not the Okabana.) I am growing to like it. ... The Shinden is wide, short, and, like a lot of wide and short people, full of personality. Makes immediate black slurry, but not too much.



Good one about the Shinden. The smooth aoto sounds like my kind of stone. I don't like aoto slurry - grey, volcanic stuff, kind of like what some people use for facial masks.



designdog said:


> Re the final polishing stone: the key descriptive is not too hard, but very fine. Maxsim just rates hardness, while Takeshi does hardness and fineness. On his scale, something around 8.7 on hardness and 9.2 on fineness is perfect. Maxsim has them, but they are $1,000 +!





Andrey V said:


> You know, DD ( now i check better the nicknames, Maksim doesn't rate by hardness only, his rating includes fineness as well. When it is 5- it's like 9 fine/ 9-9,2 hard at Aframes. I agree, Takeshi does is more "understandable" , i talked to Maksim reg this matter, but he keeps his system. Ok, we have to understand the systems used by our trusted sellers. Takeshi from MM has his system as well...



Re. JNS, I'll quote from the website:

", it is impossible to answer what grit your J-nat is because J-nats do not have standardized grit! In the beginning, I wanted to try and portray hardness, fineness, and speed. I later discovered that all fall under the hardness of the stone, and hardness was the most important thing to look for. So you will only see a level of hardness listed with any stone on my website. The hardness levels range from Lv1-Lv5+, softest to hardest, respectively."

... So, first, the JNS system is basically about hardness only. While with Kyoto finishers, fineness does usually increase with hardness, it isn't always the case.

Another point is that JNS only gives hardness ratings to finishers. While JNS basically focuses 95% on selling finishers, I also appreciate ratings like Aframes will give for non-finishers. Of course, medium stones and coarse stones can be quite hard too, for example.

On the other hand, I like the simplicity of the JNS ratings, just 1-5 with 0.5 increments. (Sellers in Jpn use different systems, some like this, which I assume is where he go the idea from.). Over at Aframes, for example, I'm not sure how much make of a 8.6 vs a 8.9 for hardnes. These things aren't going to be that scientific, and I think people are mislead if they think too much in numbers and measurements with naturals.


----------



## designdog

Actually have a pretty good Ohira suita, not well represented by this photo:





Also have a chance to get a Nakayama Tomae from a trusted supplier. His description:
I found a Nakayama stone of the highest quality.As you know,Nakayma is regarded as natural stone of the highest quality.
But there are many Nakayama stones which have too dense grits...So such stones are hard to use.
But this Nakayama stone is easy to use.It is a little hard.But such black slurry appears soon(Please see the photos).And the color of it is beautiful yellow.That means it is a top class Nakayama.

The size of it is..
Length:205mm
Width:62mm
Thickness:50mm

If this stone is wider and has a stamp,the price of it is over $1500....​
Photos here:









My price will be a very good one, and I am thinking about it...:wink:


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Good one about the Shinden. The smooth aoto sounds like my kind of stone. I don't like aoto slurry - grey, volcanic stuff, kind of like what some people use for facial masks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Re. JNS, I'll quote from the website:
> 
> ", it is impossible to answer what grit your J-nat is because J-nats do not have standardized grit! In the beginning, I wanted to try and portray hardness, fineness, and speed. I later discovered that all fall under the hardness of the stone, and hardness was the most important thing to look for. So you will only see a level of hardness listed with any stone on my website. The hardness levels range from Lv1-Lv5+, softest to hardest, respectively."
> 
> ... So, first, the JNS system is basically about hardness only. While with Kyoto finishers, fineness does usually increase with hardness, it isn't always the case.
> 
> Another point is that JNS only gives hardness ratings to finishers. While JNS basically focuses 95% on selling finishers, I also appreciate ratings like Aframes will give for non-finishers. Of course, medium stones and coarse stones can be quite hard too, for example.
> 
> On the other hand, I like the simplicity of the JNS ratings, just 1-5 with 0.5 increments. (Sellers in Jpn use different systems, some like this, which I assume is where he go the idea from.). Over at Aframes, for example, I'm not sure how much make of a 8.6 vs a 8.9 for hardnes. These things aren't going to be that scientific, and I think people are mislead if they think too much in numbers and measurements with naturals.



I know this sentence, but my answer was based on my personal discussions ( and often disputes , because i do not always agree with his ratings) with Maksim. Resulting from these disputes it comes out that the rating is based on speed/fineness as well. At least he told this. I know he writes different arguments, he should refresh it to avoid misunderstanding. 
I would like to see 2 grades: 1 for fineness, the other for hardness, it would be easier. Otherwise same lv given for Omura and soft Nakayama looks a bit confusing, unless you see the grit level. Though he gives it
I can't accept the mentioned system from Aframes as well, it looks just "too much". It's hard to understand the real value, look at his ratings of harder Aoto, sometimes it's not so far from good finishers, so 7,9 vs 8,2 is the same " terra incognita" as 8,6 vs 8,9. 
Btw, Maksims uses 0,5 step to rate the stones, you see quite often 2,5 or 3,5 lv. 
Anyway, it remains up to the vendor how to rate every stone, that's why it becomes so important to have a trusted vendor to ask directly.


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Actually have a pretty good Ohira suita, not well represented by this photo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also have a chance to get a Nakayama Tomae from a trusted supplier. His description:
> I found a Nakayama stone of the highest quality.As you know,Nakayma is regarded as natural stone of the highest quality.
> But there are many Nakayama stones which have too dense grits...So such stones are hard to use.
> But this Nakayama stone is easy to use.It is a little hard.But such black slurry appears soon(Please see the photos).And the color of it is beautiful yellow.That means it is a top class Nakayama.
> 
> The size of it is..
> Length:205mm
> Width:62mm
> Thickness:50mm
> 
> If this stone is wider and has a stamp,the price of it is over $1500....​
> Photos here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My price will be a very good one, and I am thinking about it...:wink:



The photo doesn't show good this Ohira, i wouldn't say it looks that promissing, but i trust you. Photos...
This Nakayama could be very good, though it looks ( again from the photo..) quite hard. No doubts about consistency and fineness, but it looks like a razor/ fine tool stone rather then a knive polisher. 
The blackish slurry..hm, the best Nakayamas give dark greenish slurry, at least all the dozens of good Nakayamas i tried were lime this. Stainless knife- blackish slurry. Carbon knife- more blackish- greenish slurry. 
Yellow- i can't see it from the phito, i have greenish/greyish, more like on your photo, Nakayamas, as well as real Kiita colors. Important- if you trust and want it- just take it. These two photos show totally different stone, one like hard greenish Nakayama , the other like brownish-reddish Shobu or Hakka Tomae..White balance...
To me it appears to be extra fine and quite hard. I like this type of stones as well, great to use as a final polisher.


----------



## designdog

Well, we shall see. Should have the stone next week. My supplier, known to many here, assured me this was a truly exceptional stone. Much better than his photo technique.

And I am ashamed by mine, especially since I have world class camera and lenses. Just not that experienced with table top photography, and the lighting required. I was shooting with a Nikon D800 and Zeiss 2/50MP. CaptureOne/Lightroom/Photoshop. But no lighting, and we are snow bound in Virginia...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Well, we shall see. Should have the stone next week. My supplier, known to many here, assured me this was a truly exceptional stone. Much better than his photo technique.
> 
> And I am ashamed by mine, especially since I have world class camera and lenses. Just not that experienced with table top photography, and the lighting required. I was shooting with a Nikon D800 and Zeiss 2/50MP. CaptureOne/Lightroom/Photoshop. But no lighting, and we are snow bound in Virginia...



&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;


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## Asteger

... About DD's Nakayama-to-come, yes, strange photos and it's hard to know the colour. However, I'd agree with AV Awasedo above, that it looks on the hard side. Also the dark swarf makes me think it's a bit more abrasive/fast than what you'd expect (see earlier discussion about Naka's not being so fast). Almost looks like suita slurry.


----------



## panda

asteger, what medium jnat would you say to look for to achieve a 3500 grit-liike finish?


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## Dazedandkasumi

Asteger, empty your inbox. Its full


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## Asteger

Oops, sorry guys. Just back from a trip. Panda - will get back to you


----------



## designdog

Really don't know why he sends photos, as the real stone looks so much better. He is the guy who sold me the hard aoto and the very nice Nakayama Suita. His business, located in Osaka, has many vowels in the name. The word "Tool" is in the name.

Of the Jnats I have, he has sourced five of them, directly or indirectly, and they are all very, very good. So we shall see. He did tell me that I will see a difference between the Nakayama Siuita and the Tomae, and that I can use them both in sequence...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Really don't know why he sends photos, as the real stone looks so much better. He is the guy who sold me the hard aoto and the very nice Nakayama Suita. His business, located in Osaka, has many vowels in the name. The word "Tool" is in the name.
> 
> Of the Jnats I have, he has sourced five of them, directly or indirectly, and they are all very, very good. So we shall see. He did tell me that I will see a difference between the Nakayama Siuita and the Tomae, and that I can use them both in sequence...



Iida-tool??


----------



## designdog

The winner!!!


----------



## Asteger

panda said:


> asteger, what medium jnat would you say to look for to achieve a 3500 grit-liike finish?



I keep on looking for new options as you know I like this sweet spot too, but I think the best bets are either to score the right aoto - one of the harder ones could be in this range, and softer probably wouldn't - or Aizu. Succeeding in getting either isn't easy, though.

The JNS 'green aoto' should be a good option too. Didn't you try one? How was it?

There are or once were many medium stones - many unheard of here - but lots are coarser and often come quite close to what you'd want but not quite, Ikarashi for example. One with a similar range is a hyotan Numata, not very fast but nice and feels like a finer polishing stone without being that fine.

Another rare one is Kaisei, with a higher medium-type fineness similar to Aizu. I think there is more than one kind of Kaisei, and I forget/don't know the details, but mine is very similar. 1 is, actually, and I have 2 but haven't tried the 2nd smaller one enough yet. Maybe a smoother feel than Aizu, which already is nice to use, and I even read somewhere that Aizu is considered its substitute.


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> The winner!!!



C'mon, man. I knew that and just didn't say! :dontknow:


----------



## panda

what about saeki?


----------



## Asteger

panda said:


> what about saeki?



I've got a Saeki coming, but don't know how it'll be. Andrey's written about Saeki above recently. Sounds like there's some variation among the 'brown' and 'black' ones (quotes because I think some brownish ones are also considered black), but the difference isn't that much. I think they're also a bit coarse than the 'Panda Range' too. Like I said, lots of stones seem to be slightly coarser than the Panda zone.


----------



## Supertreerun

I bought a Binsui and Amikusa Stone cheap roughly $40 each from a popular knife shop in Wisconsin. However I'm not quite sure the actual grit ratings. I was wondering if any one has had any experience with them. I feel like the progression isn't perfect also, I was thinking of adding a stone between the progression but don't know which one. Keep in mind this is my first attempt at jnats. Any info will be much appreciated.


----------



## panda

=( panda zone seems to be a unicorn search. i wasnt too thrilled with green aoto, i would like to try red but i'm pretty sure those are a bit coarser than i would like (thinking they are only slightly finer than ikarashi?)


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## designdog

Ger,

Empty your mailbox - someone is trying to send you a PM!!!


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## Asteger

designdog said:


> Ger, empty your mailbox - someone is trying to send you a PM!!!



Doh!


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## Asteger

Asteger said:


> Doh!



... In other words, sorry, and now cleared.


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## Dazedandkasumi

No need to guess who's mr.popular, huh? :doublethumbsup:



Asteger said:


> ... In other words, sorry, and now cleared.


----------



## Andrey V

Supertreerun said:


> I bought a Binsui and Amikusa Stone cheap roughly $40 each from a popular knife shop in Wisconsin. However I'm not quite sure the actual grit ratings. I was wondering if any one has had any experience with them. I feel like the progression isn't perfect also, I was thinking of adding a stone between the progression but don't know which one. Keep in mind this is my first attempt at jnats. Any info will be much appreciated.



There is a lot os stuff here already.. Check the previous posts here. Both are Amakusa, the yellowish Amakusa is coarser. Not too much but it is. Should be softer as well. There is nothing you can put in- between, because they are at the very beginning and coarser can be only a piece of a brick or cement concrete . Try on these stones to understand 'em. Don't push too much. Take cheap knives to practice. That's all. Save money for the upgrade &#9996;&#65039;&#128526;.


----------



## Andrey V

panda said:


> =( panda zone seems to be a unicorn search. i wasnt too thrilled with green aoto, i would like to try red but i'm pretty sure those are a bit coarser than i would like (thinking they are only slightly finer than ikarashi?)



Much finer and totally different. I have a very good " Green Aoto"/ the stone is just superb. One of Jnats which rases the burr easily. Nice feeling, great responce. Not too muddy. Reds are muddier


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> I've got a Saeki coming, but don't know how it'll be. Andrey's written about Saeki above recently. Sounds like there's some variation among the 'brown' and 'black' ones (quotes because I think some brownish ones are also considered black), but the difference isn't that much. I think they're also a bit coarse than the 'Panda Range' too. Like I said, lots of stones seem to be slightly coarser than the Panda zone.



Yeah. 
Browns are softer as well. Often unpleasantly soft. Muddy. Blacks are a bit finer and harder.


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> There is a lot os stuff here already.. Check the previous posts here. Both are Amakusa



Yes. 'Binsui' is a type of stone, not an origin/mine name for a stone. Some Amakusa are good. I have more than one. But - maybe because, in part, they are probably still being mined - they are inexpensive. Better ones inexpensive, and lesser ones downright cheap. The striped red or white 'toratogi' stones are usually referred to as Amakusa by sellers, whereas the plain white ones are more vaguely labelled 'binsui' (perhaps in an attempt to evoke images of classy stones in the sword polishing progression; a 'binsui' is the general name for the 2nd stone) rather than 'white Amakusa' which they no doubt are. (Sorry, I'm complaining here again about naming and sales talk. 'Binsui' is a general name that is used all over, like 'aoto', and in Japan too.) 

Hope you enjoy yours. They're coarse enough that you shouldn't need to use them often. Definitely don't need anything 'between' them. Finer stones medium stones and then, if you want to go fine, finer finishers would probably receive more frequent use.


----------



## Supertreerun

Asteger said:


> Yes. 'Binsui' is a type of stone, not an origin/mine name for a stone. Some Amakusa are good. I have more than one. But - maybe because, in part, they are probably still being mined - they are inexpensive. Better ones inexpensive, and lesser ones downright cheap. The striped red or white 'toratogi' stones are usually referred to as Amakusa by sellers, whereas the plain white ones are more vaguely labelled 'binsui' (perhaps in an attempt to evoke images of classy stones in the sword polishing progression; a 'binsui' is the general name for the 2nd stone) rather than 'white Amakusa' which they no doubt are. (Sorry, I'm complaining here again about naming and sales talk. 'Binsui' is a general name that is used all over, like 'aoto', and in Japan too.)
> 
> Hope you enjoy yours. They're coarse enough that you shouldn't need to use them often. Definitely don't need anything 'between' them. Finer stones medium stones and then, if you want to go fine, finer finishers would probably receive more frequent use.



Thanks for the info!!


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## panda

i like a bit of mud. what is the hardness of red aotos? i really think my vintage blue aoto hits on all levels on what i like (awesome feedback, fast cutting, good slurry) except i wish it was not nearly as fine finish. looking for a hardness level between medium and hard. like a 7 rating.


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## designdog

The JNS red aoto I have is about as muddy as my vintage aoto. I can't relate to fineness for any of my aotos, other than knowing that one is finer than the other, since I view them as perhaps a starting point, but never a finishing point. There is, for me, always at least one more stone to follow.

The red aoto is, however, the only one that raises a burr without much effort. Even so, it is the least used of my aotos, as I prefer the harder, less messy stones with more positive feedback. I have a rather large Okabana Aoto that is the best for me...


----------



## Asteger

I've only tried a couple of the red/green aoto, but comparing mine and others' reactions I think they vary a lot and it's hard to generalise, except maybe that at first reds were reds, then the greens came, and colour and hardness and fineness were distinct (red softer and coarser, green harder and finer). But I think in the later stages until they sold out, they really were a mix with, for eg, some 'red aoto' looking fairly greenish, and red aoto being harder than people thought, and so on. I suppose every stone was sold that could be sold. My own red aoto, one of the early ones, was quite soft and muddy - probably more than a 'bit of mud'. But hard to say, Panda, if it hits the Panda Zone or not as I no longer have it and can't test/compare. The green was supposed to be more of your zone, I think.


----------



## designdog

Just got a stainless knife  a bit out of my preferences, but I have always wanted one: Ealy 225mm line knife in AB-L.

Really like the knife (used but in great shape.) Love the profile,spine thickness, etc. Needs sharpening. Do I use mu JNats, or go with synthetics: JNS 800, Gesshin 2, 4, 8k?

Any experiences with this steel on naturals?

Also: the Nakayama Tomae arrived, and I topped off a Kato. Magnificent! More details and pics to follow...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Just got a stainless knife  a bit out of my preferences, but I have always wanted one: Ealy 225mm line knife in AB-L.
> 
> Really like the knife (used but in great shape.) Love the profile,spine thickness, etc. Needs sharpening. Do I use mu JNats, or go with synthetics: JNS 800, Gesshin 2, 4, 8k?
> 
> Any experiences with this steel on naturals?
> 
> Also: the Nakayama Tomae arrived, and I topped off a Kato. Magnificent! More details and pics to follow...



Congrats!!&#9996;&#65039;
As to me- no need to avoid Jnat sharpening. Why?? The effects you get on carbons are the same for stainless. It's not about the finish- it's about the edge quality- the particles are just different, so the sharpening picture is different as well. I would suggest you to make 2 sessions: one with synths, the other one with Jnats- check yourself what you 'll like more, but I'm pretty sure about the result..&#128526;&#128526;&#128515;. 
Very glad you've got your dream- stone, great, man &#128077;&#128077;!


----------



## Asteger

I like AV's advice - comparison test. Interested in more info on the Nakayama deluxe!


----------



## panda

perhaps i need to try another green aoto since they vary..


----------



## designdog

Here is an update. First, the Nakayama Tomae. It is already my best stone. Very, very smooth, yet it produces a good amount of black slurry. Not dense slurry, but not too watery either. Enough to move around the stone. I used a progression of JNS800, hard aoto, Ohira Renge Suita, Nakayama Tomae. (See below.) I did note an edge improvement from the Ohira to the Nakayama.

iPhone photos here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dahdog/sets/72157650982557858/

I bought this stone knowing it had appearance issues. Hey  I couldn't afford one like this in perfect condition!

I used two knives for this session. First, an Ealy line knife in AEB-L, then a Marko Tsourkan gyuto in 52100. I have been meaning to try some American made knives, and picked these up from a BST. While the results were pretty much the same  exceptional  I do confess that I did not enjoy sharpening the SS on JNats. It just did not have the smooth feel the carbon knife had on the same stones. Also, I will be thinning the Ealy big time, to get it where I want it. The Marko, on the other hand, is a real and serious laser. A fine knife.

All considered, I am quite happy with these acquisitions. I moved into some new knife directions, and got the finishing stone I wanted...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Here is an update. First, the Nakayama Tomae. It is already my best stone. Very, very smooth, yet it produces a good amount of black slurry. Not dense slurry, but not too watery either. Enough to move around the stone. I used a progression of JNS800, hard aoto, Ohira Renge Suita, Nakayama Tomae. (See below.) I did note an edge improvement from the Ohira to the Nakayama.
> 
> iPhone photos here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dahdog/sets/72157650982557858/
> 
> I bought this stone knowing it had appearance issues. Hey  I couldn't afford one like this in perfect condition!
> 
> I used two knives for this session. First, an Ealy line knife in AEB-L, then a Marko Tsourkan gyuto in 52100. I have been meaning to try some American made knives, and picked these up from a BST. While the results were pretty much the same  exceptional  I do confess that I did not enjoy sharpening the SS on JNats. It just did not have the smooth feel the carbon knife had on the same stones. Also, I will be thinning the Ealy big time, to get it where I want it. The Marko, on the other hand, is a real and serious laser. A fine knife.
> 
> All considered, I am quite happy with these acquisitions. I moved into some new knife directions, and got the finishing stone I wanted...



The most important notice you have done is following: there's an improvement in the progression after a good Suita to face! Now you understand me &#128526;&#128526;&#9996;&#65039;&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;. The ultimate finisher gives the ultimate edge. 
The other important notice is: a good SS knife can't offer the feeling&cut of the good carbon knife.. It give some...soapy feeling, right&#128526;? 
This is that.. Welcome to the club!!&#128077;&#128540;
Now to be completely convinced try to sharpen the carbon knife on full synthetic progression, then give it a nice cutting session. To understand the result. The cut. The retention. Compare with the same process after Jnat sharpening. Same knife- different sharpening stuff. Make different multiplied cuts on paper, onions, carrots, potatoes, tomatoes, fruits ( acidic fruits) , some proteins as well. Again paper, compare. 
Share the results. Then it will be your own choice. Not inspired by somebody from here or elsewhere.


----------



## Andrey V

BTW- i checked the photos - the shape isn't perfect, it's true, but it isn't a problem. Not at all. First of all- it's very good from above- so it still offers almost a full size as a sharpening space. 
2- till you come to the bottom...Man, one can't live that long &#128526;&#128540;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;!! I would suggest a base if it is shaky, if not- just leave it as it is. 
3- it looks quite hard (4 of 5, i would say), but very fine. I know that kind of Nakayama - they have that earthy specific smell when wet.. Just a question: the slurry- is it blackish on SS knife and a bit greenish on carbons?? I have some great Nakayamas from different layers, Tomae as well.


----------



## designdog

Yes, I get that earthy smell as well. The stone sets up fine in my holder, no problem.

I now realize I did a bad thing: I sharpened the SS first on each stone, and did not wash off the stone when I went to the carbon! I failed you, master! Where is my katana?

So it would have been hard to see differently colored slurry, if I was clear minded enough to look for it.

This just means I will have to sharpen another carbon knife tomorrow, for penance...


----------



## Mute-on

Andrey, could you please clear your inbox. Trying to send a PM 

Many apologies for off topic post :O


----------



## Andrey V

Mute-on said:


> Andrey, could you please clear your inbox. Trying to send a PM
> 
> Many apologies for off topic post :O



Sorry, done
Was strange, no messages that somebody can't send nothing.. Now it' virgin- empty &#128540;&#128540;&#9996;&#65039;


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Yes, I get that earthy smell as well. The stone sets up fine in my holder, no problem.
> 
> I now realize I did a bad thing: I sharpened the SS first on each stone, and did not wash off the stone when I went to the carbon! I failed you, master! Where is my katana?
> 
> So it would have been hard to see differently colored slurry, if I was clear minded enough to look for it.
> 
> This just means I will have to sharpen another carbon knife tomorrow, for penance...



&#128540;&#128526;&#128526;
You need a tanto or wakidzasi for this reason, katana is used by the man standing behind ready to use it...
If to talk seriously (&#128526;&#128526- the stone should be clean, and you have to clean it up after every use, same as the blade. Otherwise you bring the coarse particles of previous coarser stone to the finer stone and mess both up. You scratch the blade and the stone. That is why clear clean water is important , especially if it comes to fines polishing on such stones as fine Nakayama.


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> ...my best stone. Very, very smooth, yet it produces a good amount of black slurry. Not dense slurry, but not too watery either. Enough to move around the stone.



Good description/observation. Sounds like a good one. Yes, the shape is a bit awkward, and you have the bits of 'skin' on the sides that go up to the sharpening surface. (If anyone has that, use your diamond plate to round down or chamfer the edges to keep the skin down, so it doesn't knick your blade.) On the other hand, it's nice and thick and looks solid and stable otherwise. I dislike wobbly stones, and so would flatten the bottom, etc, if I had a wobbler. (Usually possible to do.)

Stainless - yes, not going to feel as good. AV says 'soapy'. I feel it's more gummy. Luckily, I only have 2 or 3 of these.


----------



## Andrey V

Soapy, gummy- not important. 
The matter is- by far not so good as carbons &#128526;&#128540;&#128540;&#9996;&#65039;. 
The Atoma skin- polishing is a hard task sometimes, i do it often. That's why I offered a base- the wooden base+ some thick glue will compensate unevenness of the button. Easy. Et en plus: it will prevent the stone from possible cracking.


----------



## designdog

Yes, I had already chamfered the "skin" in the sides of the stone. Poses no problem at all.

As reported, I put the SS knife to the synthetics - a combination of JNS and Gesshin stones. First I thinned it, considerably, then I set a microbevel. I was extremely disappointed afterward for, although the performance improved substantially, my mistakes on the stones resulted in a pretty ugly knife. Lots of bright spots on the sides.

So today I took the advice of some others here, took a deep breath, and hit the knife with 240/400/800/1000 grit sandpaper. What a difference! So easy, and it looks so good! I even reached back to a double bevel Suisin Momizi that I had messed up last year, and it now looks great! I know this is no big deal to some of you, but I am most pleased!:happy1:


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Yes, I had already chamfered the "skin" in the sides of the stone. Poses no problem at all.
> 
> As reported, I put the SS knife to the synthetics - a combination of JNS and Gesshin stones. First I thinned it, considerably, then I set a microbevel. I was extremely disappointed afterward for, although the performance improved substantially, my mistakes on the stones resulted in a pretty ugly knife. Lots of bright spots on the sides.
> 
> So today I took the advice of some others here, took a deep breath, and hit the knife with 240/400/800/1000 grit sandpaper. What a difference! So easy, and it looks so good! I even reached back to a double bevel Suisin Momizi that I had messed up last year, and it now looks great! I know this is no big deal to some of you, but I am most pleased!:happy1:



You see!! It works with sandpaper. 
But check Maksim's C Powder 80 grit- it's a magical stuff for these operations. I have done a special tool for it- you can't imagine how quick& easy it goes! Very nice. I've renewed many knives ( you can't even imagine how ugly they were, Katos as well) up to the level of a new knife. 
Sure, i use different fingerstones. But this powder.. His Wa-Set is great as well. 1000-2000-10000. 
If you'll have the occasion - take it. It's cheap, and very effective. 
I support you wish to have your knives in a perfect condition, doesn't matter if new or used. I think we should respect the masterpieces we've got, it took so much time to forge them..


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Not much ging on here at the Moment
Come on guys, Im sure you have some jnat experience/info to share

My latest accusations are a numata and a aizu. Two very cool stones. Love them
A certin gentleman in the pack med me a killer deal. Hard to pass. Do not regret buying them

Anyway guys, 
Whats going on in the world of jnats?


Geir


----------



## designdog

Geir,

Those are two very nice stones. I also have them. The Aizu is reportedly very good with stainless steel knives, which, I can attest, a softer aoto is not. I have a Devin ITK gyuto in AEB-L overdue, and will try the Aizu out when the knife arrives. I can tell you that I am getting weary of the softer aotos. They are messy, require a lot of attention while sharpening, and much cleanup. I now only plan to use them for kasumi finishing. Since I rarely use my single bevel knives, the aotos will rarely be used. The two harder aotos are a different matter  indispensable...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Geir,
> 
> Those are two very nice stones. I also have them. The Aizu is reportedly very good with stainless steel knives, which, I can attest, a softer aoto is not. I have a Devin ITK gyuto in AEB-L overdue, and will try the Aizu out when the knife arrives. I can tell you that I am getting weary of the softer aotos. They are messy, require a lot of attention while sharpening, and much cleanup. I now only plan to use them for kasumi finishing. Since I rarely use my single bevel knives, the aotos will rarely be used. The two harder aotos are a different matter  indispensable...



You see, that is why i don't like soft stones. 
Exactly because of all the described features. 
Harder stones give better result, require advanced techniques as well. 
There are some rules to follow ( i do at least): the knives are made of different steels, different steels require different stones. 
The knives are made for different tasks, the sharpening tools should be chosen based on the estimated end result. 
In some cases one should stop at the Aoto ( Santoku, reg Gyuto, ) level or even Aizu ( hunting) at max, in some other case go up to a fine Nakayama ( Yanagiba, Usuba or even Petty for small precise tasks). 
Depends on the task. 
I like to have all my kitchen knives in a very sharp condition, but it just doesn't work with utility knives. Same for angle etc. 
Otherwise it will be hard to do some ultimate cuts.. &#128526;


----------



## Asteger

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Not much ging on here at the Moment
> Come on guys, Im sure you have some jnat experience/info to share



Sorry, D&K, but in my case barely any time to touch my quarry these days. 

They're all currently sitting in the 'stone room' and I keep the door shut, as my 2-year-old has taken quite an interest in them. Can't lock the door, though, so in an effort to distract her from her mission of climbing the shelves and making off with a suita, I've already given her a small nagura to play with, which she sometimes rubs on things. Who knows, in years to come she could be one of the very few females to appear on KKF, and probably the only stone-head.


----------



## designdog

For some reason the AEB-L Devin has not arrived, so no chance to sharpen it. I did jump at the new Shigefusa 270mm gyuto here, and have received that: lovely knife but so big! Has the largest (longest) handle I have ever seen. Probably needed for balance. It is quite sharp out of the box (of course) so it will be a while before it sees the stones. And it will get a full progression, though Nakayama Tomae (sorry.)

Although I am completely satisfied with this last stone, my curiosity has me wondering about the Okudo "hard stone" listed on Takeshi's site. Not a suita, but a "6-10k" finishing stone. The problem I see with these stones that get up to "10,000 grit" ids that they are so hard it is difficult to get a slurry going with them. As in Ozuku Asagi.


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> Although I am completely satisfied with this last stone, my curiosity has me wondering about the Okudo "hard stone" listed on Takeshi's site. Not a suita, but a "6-10k" finishing stone. The problem I see with these stones that get up to "10,000 grit" ids that they are so hard it is difficult to get a slurry going with them. As in Ozuku Asagi.



Nagura time. I know you have a Botan; have you added to the tally yet?


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Nagura time. I know you have a Botan; have you added to the tally yet?



Let me disagree, Asteger
To go up in terms of fineness and gritness it's better to use a Tomonagura. That would gige same-grit- slurry. Botan will speed it up but downgrade the stone in terms of fineness.


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Let me disagree, Asteger
> To go up in terms of fineness and gritness it's better to use a Tomonagura. That would gige same-grit- slurry. Botan will speed it up but downgrade the stone in terms of fineness.



No, no, AV: "I know you have a Botan; have you added to the tally yet?" My words: this just means that I know he has a Botan already, and I wonder if he has got any more now. Not: _you must use your Botan._ Just what it says. :spin chair:

As for a tomo, sure, good recommendation. :thumbsup: As I said, nagura time! A tomonag is a nag, after all. Maybe DD's got some finer Asano or other now too?


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> No, no, AV: "I know you have a Botan; have you added to the tally yet?" My words: this just means that I know he has a Botan already, and I wonder if he has got any more now. Not: _you must use your Botan._ :spin chair:
> 
> As for a tomo, yes, good recommendation. As I said, nagura time! A tomonag is a nag, after all.



Please, Asteger, leave it [emoji41]. 
Sure, Tomonagura is a Nagura, after all . 
It's so funny how you try to teach from time to time.. Professional distortion [emoji41][emoji41]?? [emoji12][emoji12]
BTW- i 've got a stone you've never seen before, i'm sure. Jasper from Russian Ural Mountains. Very fine, very hard. Something like best Arkanzas. Will give it to Japanese Tennen Toishi Museum.


----------



## Asteger

Everyone needs a bit of teaching sometimes, AV. Ahem. You should show a photo over your Ural stone. Sounds interesting


----------



## designdog

Actually I got nice big Mejiro and Tenjou Nagura from the same place I got my Shige Kitaeji santoku. I have been using the Tenjou on my Ohira suita, and the Mejiro on the Nakayama Tomae. Just get a light milky froth going. Probably don't really need either one.

I don't need a reminder of the Ural mountains. I once spent a long day and evening at an airfield there because our Russian charter plane had a dead battery and we had to wait (and wait) for a replacement from Moscow. This to tour an aluminum foil rolling plant and smelter that the Russians wanted us to partner with (as in "buy".) I don't drink, but I came awfully close on that trip. Horseradish vodka, as I recall...

Andrey, maybe that was you from the company office?


----------



## Asteger

Has to be so many undiscovered and 'undiscovered' stones out there. There has been a thread before started by a fellow in the Philippines, and he had a cool-looking one from there, bluish I think. Last month I was in Indonesia and was quite pleased when my father-in-law proudly pulled out a new natural with a wooden base he'd made to sharpen a scyth. Unfortunately, he didn't know anything about its origins, but there's an infinite number of mountains and volcanoes over there it could come from.


----------



## Andrey V

I'm lucky to have tried so many naturals from all over the world... Mostly useless for our topic. But consider we are by far not the first generation in this world which comes to idea to sharpen a metal plate....
There are different possibilities, I have studied this topic. My conclusion is: the expectations were ( comparing with our"scale") around Aoto at maximum, or even below. It gives a sharp deadly edge, to be used on the battlefield it has to be more " toothy", the cuisine wasn't that developed to be focused on the ultimate cut so much (the best steels weren't used in the kitchen..)- so even a brick or almost any more or less solid stone could be used for it. You can sharpen the knife even on a rough cheap tea cup( back side)- the expensive are properly glazed . 
So the enthusiasts were looking for something interesting/new/outstanding, while the average estimate was the same as today. 
It cuts- it's ok. 
The main features of Kyoto finer stones are their softness & fineness. The other stones are too hard if fine enough, or too coarse if soft. With Jnats it came out quite uniquely: check all european stones ( Roszutec from Slovenia, or Thüringen honing stones, or Belgian slates, or turkish ancient stones, scottish/irish stones, Arkanzas, russian stones, chinese stones , south aftican honing stones etc etc etc) - they are different. They give some other feedback. The result is different. I suppose some could be found elsewhere, but who is looking for?? No demand.. No need.. The average consumer is more then happy with some tool( if he dies care about it). The advanced one uses some waterstone at max. 
The dudes like us have focused on "secret druid knowledge " and dance around the fire . It's just a big fan, let's continue!!


----------



## daveb

Nicely put Andrey - I think you've captured just the right perspective.


----------



## designdog

What a wonderful coincidence that the good knives come from the same place as the good stones...


----------



## Asteger

Yes, and of course also not a coincidence. I also like how, in this age of stealth bombers, evil unmaned drones & whatnot, back in the day a top mine over in Kyoto would be regarded as a military secret. 



Andrey V said:


> The dudes like us have focused on "secret druid knowledge " and dance around the fire



Oooo, I like this. As at this point I think the Jnat thread in the JNS subforum has for a long time had nothing to do with JNS, I say we start a new thread in Sharpening called "secret druid knowledge".


----------



## Andrey V

maxim said:


> Ok I make a sticky here in my Subforum.
> With Jnats i have and all of you have
> Please post pics of your J-nat ! All stones is welcome from all vendors. Also some other Natural stones too !



Check it, Asteger
Maksim has invited us clearly to share ANYTHING from ANYWHERE. [emoji2][emoji2]
So nothing goes wrong here. 
Reg your scepsis about " druid knowledge "  - just talk about our hobby to 4-5 men around you, not from the " circle of trust ", just " normal" people. 
About mines, stones, steels, single/double bevels etc 
[emoji41][emoji12][emoji12][emoji12]. 
Check what people think about it


----------



## designdog

Er, actually my comment was very much "tongue in cheek..." As one who has spent a good deal of his adult life in Europe, commenting to one who lives beyond the Urals, and another in &#45824;&#54620;&#48124;&#44397;, the non-American use of irony would be taken for granted...


----------



## designdog

Andrey, you are close to exceeding your emoticon limit...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Actually I got nice big Mejiro and Tenjou Nagura from the same place I got my Shige Kitaeji santoku. I have been using the Tenjou on my Ohira suita, and the Mejiro on the Nakayama Tomae. Just get a light milky froth going. Probably don't really need either one.
> 
> I don't need a reminder of the Ural mountains. I once spent a long day and evening at an airfield there because our Russian charter plane had a dead battery and we had to wait (and wait) for a replacement from Moscow. This to tour an aluminum foil rolling plant and smelter that the Russians wanted us to partner with (as in "buy".) I don't drink, but I came awfully close on that trip. Horseradish vodka, as I recall...
> 
> Andrey, maybe that was you from the company office?



I've never been there... But I've heard there are some stones used to be known in old-good-days ..


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Andrey, you are close to exceeding your emoticon limit...



No, just playing [emoji41][emoji41][emoji106][emoji111]&#65039;


----------



## Andrey V

BTW- very cool idea to make a secret thread..[emoji41][emoji41][emoji79][emoji79][emoji79][emoji79][emoji120][emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]
But we'll need a secret language to hide the real sense [emoji54][emoji54]


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> Andrey, you are close to exceeding your emoticon limit...



:cool2: No, I think that time has already passed. 



Andrey V said:


> BTW- very cool idea to make a secret thread...But we'll need a secret language to hide the real sense



Probably not possible to make a secret thread, but one with a secret lingo fathomable only to the 'circle of trust' (excellent phrase again) is another good idea. However, we've probably already got that going on. After all, how many people would understand comments about the su or suji on someone's new shinden suita, or if that might be a sunashi with no su, or a horrible sujimono, or if that aoto is an aono, or if a nakayama is a narutaki? That said, we're still quite good at misunderstandings. One solution, which could also lead to a decrease in emoticom use, might be if were were to all learn Russian. Then the mods would really be lost.

Let's start. Phrase of the day: *&#1055;&#1088;&#1080;&#1088;&#1086;&#1076;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1090;&#1086;&#1095;&#1080;&#1083;&#1100;&#1085;&#1099;&#1081; &#1082;&#1072;&#1084;&#1077;&#1085;&#1100;*


----------



## designdog

Something about a hard whetstone...?


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> Something about a hard whetstone...?



Shh!  Let's keep this to ourselves.


----------



## Andrey V

Cool, ,Asteger
The secret language has been chosen [emoji41]. 
But there are so many varieties in terms.. We risk to be too "secret" [emoji41][emoji41][emoji12][emoji12] even for us. 
I have a new idea to discuss. Belgian Blue and Coticule. I have some experience with the stones as well. They differ from all the stones i' ve ever tried. Fast cutting, completely different if to use with Tomonagura, leave very keen edge but the retention is so so. 
BB is cheaper, but slower and coarser. 
There are so many varieties of Coticule. The nice side about it is that the response is totally different from Jnats. 
Even a small stone ( like 150x50/60) is convenient to sharpen quite big knives. The feeling is strange: it cuts with microgarnets, they are too hard to break down. It feels like a good synthetic stone. No finish. Pure sharpening on one stone. Very bizarre stones indeed,,


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Something about a hard whetstone...?



Natural sharpening stone.


----------



## Andrey V

Andrey V said:


> Natural sharpening stone.



Sh... Didn't see your remarks...[emoji12]


----------



## Dardeau

Maxim got me. Ohira Suita in route.


----------



## Chuckles

I'll admit to a strong desire to understand the discussion in this thread.


----------



## Mute-on

Ohira en route here too ...


----------



## schanop

Mute-on said:


> Ohira en route here too ...



Cool, with Easter discount ? :bliss:


----------



## Mute-on

Happy Easter from Maxim


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Chuckles said:


> I'll admit to a strong desire to understand the discussion in this thread.



Ill have to warn you. This will turn in to a costly venture:laugh:


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Ill have to warn you. This will turn in to a costly venture:laugh:



Oh yeah....[emoji79][emoji79][emoji79][emoji79][emoji79]


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Chuckles said:


> I'll admit to a strong desire to understand the discussion in this thread.





Andrey V said:


> Oh yeah....[emoji79][emoji79][emoji79][emoji79][emoji79]



Yes sir:eyebrow:
But fun, and well worth time and money spent

I just took advantage of the danish easter-sale. Bought some knives, and a aiiwa koppa lv4. As far as I can tell from old posts you are fond of aiiwa Andrey, right?


----------



## designdog

I think I have stocked up on stones for a while, so 
I recently got them something to play with: Ealy, Devin, Marko gyutos, and a Shige 270 Kasumi that I fear is too big for me. All carbon save the Ealy...


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Yes sir:eyebrow:
> But fun, and well worth time and money spent
> 
> I just took advantage of the danish easter-sale. Bought some knives, and a aiiwa koppa lv4. As far as I can tell from old posts you are fond of aiiwa Andrey, right?



I would say- Aiiwa too [emoji41][emoji41][emoji111]&#65039;. 
Congrats! New toy- new joy! 
Tell us how do you find it.


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> I think I have stocked up on stones for a while, so
> I recently got them something to play with: Ealy, Devin, Marko gyutos, and a Shige 270 Kasumi that I fear is too big for me. All carbon save the Ealy...



Me too, but only a measly petty as a new knife.


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Asteger said:


> Me too, but only a measly petty as a new knife.



What petty did you get Ger?


----------



## designdog

You probably have a stone I would trade the Shige for...


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Chuckles said:


> I'll admit to a strong desire to understand the discussion in this thread.





Andrey V said:


> I would say- Aiiwa too [emoji41][emoji41][emoji111]&#65039;.
> Congrats! New toy- new joy!
> Tell us how do you find it.



I will.. 

Had some spare time yesterday, and nothing special to do. Found a old gerber folding knife. Made of some cheap ss.. 
Spent some time on the nomat and aizu. Both stones worked really well on the knife. Produced more slurry than some of the carbons.
The aizu do prduce a great "sticky" edge..


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> I will..
> 
> Had some spare time yesterday, and nothing special to do. Found a old gerber folding knife. Made of some cheap ss..
> Spent some time on the nomat and aizu. Both stones worked really well on the knife. Produced more slurry than some of the carbons.
> The aizu do prduce a great "sticky" edge..



SS gets sticky quite quick. The softer ss steels get biting sticky sharpness on lower grits. 
Carbons( especially well hardened) produce less black slurry then the softer ss. It's normal. 
The retention of the edge received on lower grits isn't the same as on higher grit stones. IMHO. . 
It sticks /bites because of "teeth" ( micro-serrator) you get from the low grit/med stones. 
The edge you get on finishers doesn't stick, it comes through, without resistance.


----------



## Andrey V

Sorry, guys, couldn't resist to take a nice rare stone.. I took the big Atago Kiita.. I looked at the stone for some time, i didn't want to participate in Easter Sale, but..... 
One more great stone for my Tennen Toishi House..&#128540;&#128540;&#128526;


----------



## designdog

Andrey - good score! Give us a review when you use it!


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Andrey - good score! Give us a review when you use it!



I can give right now . I know Atago Kiita, have tried it many times. This is a very good stone. Very fine, very cool, very quick. Anyway, i will post it as soon as i'll get it. 
Cheers


----------



## skiajl6297

All - I always follow these discussions with a mixed amount of awe and trepidation, as it leads to unnecessary purchases.

A question for you:

What stone would you recommend that meets all of the following criteria:

Leaves an excellent FINAL finish on a home cook's double bevel gyutos, primarily in O1, AEB-L, and V2?
Would be considered a very capable pre-polisher, bordering on slightly coarse finisher, for a straight razor?

I have a small Nakayama suita koppa that seems to fit the bill for me, for now, but I am interested in a future acquisition of a more substantial rock to use on both, as my koppa is a bit small for knife work. It can be done, but I prefer bricks. I am leaning towards suita of some sort, but know they are often discouraged for straights as they can be aggressive, and obviously larger bricks = more $$$. Also have considered those larger Botan naguras as an option.

I'd love to hear opinions on this from the gang. Thanks!

Adam


----------



## Andrey V

skiajl6297 said:


> All - I always follow these discussions with a mixed amount of awe and trepidation, as it leads to unnecessary purchases.
> 
> A question for you:
> 
> What stone would you recommend that meets all of the following criteria:
> 
> Leaves an excellent FINAL finish on a home cook's double bevel gyutos, primarily in O1, AEB-L, and V2?
> Would be considered a very capable pre-polisher, bordering on slightly coarse finisher, for a straight razor?
> 
> I have a small Nakayama suita koppa that seems to fit the bill for me, for now, but I am interested in a future acquisition of a more substantial rock to use on both, as my koppa is a bit small for knife work. It can be done, but I prefer bricks. I am leaning towards suita of some sort, but know they are often discouraged for straights as they can be aggressive, and obviously larger bricks = more $$$. Also have considered those larger Botan naguras as an option.
> 
> I'd love to hear opinions on this from the gang. Thanks!
> 
> Adam



Hi, Adam
If you need a stone for all your reasons, it can be manageable, though quite hard..
Suitas are great, but you'll need Sunashi. I would say a Kiita would match your expectations. Which one/ up to your budget. 
But it can be a helper both for a knife and a razor. 
The other option which i mention quite often is to get a fine Tomae ( Ohira Tomae, f ex, it's affordable) and a set of Naguras. You'll get a reasonable solution for both straights & knives. 
Reg finish on you Gyutos: when you sharpen/ polish a double beveled knife you use the thin ( not wide anyway) cutting edge, actually hardly visible. 
The matter of a nice finish becomes important when it comes to the wide single bevel, like Yanagi, Mukimono, Deba, Honesuki etc. 
anyway, the Kiita ( Atago, Naka, Okudo etc) gives very nice finish. 
So, suggestion:
- if you need only one finisher for all your tasks- I would recommend a Tomae( up to you, or softer Asagi) and a set of Naguras , your Nakayama Koppa will work as a Naka Tomonagura giving fine slurry to finish the stuff ( more knives, the razors will need a clean stone, but you'll have it)
- if you can afford a good Kiita- great. 
- the new stone will polish your Gyuto. All mentioned steels will get the mirror, that's all. 
- if you'll feel some limits when sharpening/honing- you'll get the input to spend next bunch from your pocket. 
IMHO, that's all for now .


----------



## skiajl6297

Thanks Andrey! I am looking to avoid too many stones (blasphemy, I know) and have already tried the nagura route for razors. Coming from a straight razor angle, I found that I was able to more consistently deliver edges I like without the use of mutliple naguras. I learned to hone on typical progression, set bevel on synthetic (even tried bevel set on Ikarashi) followed by Asano nagura progression, finishing with a tomo finish on a hard asagi, e.g. bevel set on Gesshin 4k, nagura progression on Okudo Asagi or Ozuku Asagi, finishing with a tomo nagura on the Okudo or Ozuku. I obtained the Nakayama Suita Koppa, and eliminated all of the middle nagura work, to improved results. Odds are good my biggest issue was room for error with all of the naguras.

Getting back on point however, perhaps I could just use the Nakayama Suita as my tomonagura on my Okudo Asagi brick for knife finishing? Perhaps I don't need another stone at all! I have hesitated to use the Okudo Asagi on knives, but perhaps this nakayama's slurry is just what I need. I am not lacking for options for straights, but was hoping for something that could more easily work on knives too, and maybe my solution is sitting in front of me, untested.

I am sure the simplest answer is "just try it and see" but I don't have much experience finishing knives much above 4k, and am not sure quite what to expect.

Appreciate the feedback!


----------



## Andrey V

skiajl6297 said:


> Thanks Andrey! I am looking to avoid too many stones (blasphemy, I know) and have already tried the nagura route for razors. Coming from a straight razor angle, I found that I was able to more consistently deliver edges I like without the use of mutliple naguras. I learned to hone on typical progression, set bevel on synthetic (even tried bevel set on Ikarashi) followed by Asano nagura progression, finishing with a tomo finish on a hard asagi, e.g. bevel set on Gesshin 4k, nagura progression on Okudo Asagi or Ozuku Asagi, finishing with a tomo nagura on the Okudo or Ozuku. I obtained the Nakayama Suita Koppa, and eliminated all of the middle nagura work, to improved results. Odds are good my biggest issue was room for error with all of the naguras.
> 
> Getting back on point however, perhaps I could just use the Nakayama Suita as my tomonagura on my Okudo Asagi brick for knife finishing? Perhaps I don't need another stone at all! I have hesitated to use the Okudo Asagi on knives, but perhaps this nakayama's slurry is just what I need. I am not lacking for options for straights, but was hoping for something that could more easily work on knives too, and maybe my solution is sitting in front of me, untested.
> 
> I am sure the simplest answer is "just try it and see" but I don't have much experience finishing knives much above 4k, and am not sure quite what to expect.
> 
> Appreciate the feedback!



You gave the answer already !!&#128526;&#128526;&#128526;
Just try it. Having good Asagi you can use them as a good hard base and create the slurry with your Naguras. 
But please don't push too much, you can damage the blade. Asagi is very good for the straights, but scratchy for the knives. 
So just gently sharpening/ honing. You seem to have good skills in honing razors. Use your feeling of the blade. 
Good luck. 
And a lot of fun &#9996;&#65039;&#9996;&#65039;&#128526;&#128077;.


----------



## shownomarci

Easter sale?
Have i just missed something?   
Been following this thread for a while now but neglected for a week and this is what happenes if i don't keep my eyes open...


----------



## Asteger

shownomarci said:


> Easter sale?



Hehe, you did, but don't worry as it doesn't mean everyone was buying something. I didn't, for one.


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Hi, Adam
> If you need a stone for all your reasons, it can be manageable, though quite hard..
> Suitas are great, but you'll need Sunashi. I would say a Kiita would match your expectations. Which one/ up to your budget.
> But it can be a helper both for a knife and a razor.
> The other option which i mention quite often is to get a fine Tomae ( Ohira Tomae, f ex, it's affordable) and a set of Naguras. You'll get a reasonable solution for both straights & knives.
> Reg finish on you Gyutos: when you sharpen/ polish a double beveled knife you use the thin ( not wide anyway) cutting edge, actually hardly visible.
> The matter of a nice finish becomes important when it comes to the wide single bevel, like Yanagi, Mukimono, Deba, Honesuki etc.
> anyway, the Kiita ( Atago, Naka, Okudo etc) gives very nice finish.
> So, suggestion:
> - if you need only one finisher for all your tasks- I would recommend a Tomae( up to you, or softer Asagi) and a set of Naguras , your Nakayama Koppa will work as a Naka Tomonagura giving fine slurry to finish the stuff ( more knives, the razors will need a clean stone, but you'll have it)
> - if you can afford a good Kiita- great.
> - the new stone will polish your Gyuto. All mentioned steels will get the mirror, that's all.
> - if you'll feel some limits when sharpening/honing- you'll get the input to spend next bunch from your pocket.
> IMHO, that's all for now .



Whew, as usual lots of info from AV. Nice stuff too. Just had a few general thoughts when above...

Suita - These are often faster fine stones due to the micro su-holes, which give suita their name, as we all know. Very good when you're taking off lots of metal, like with some tools. (Not that I'm a tool sharpener; speaking of which, where's Vinh these days?) In my opinion, however, speed shouldn't be over-emphasised with knives, and so I'd resist getting carried away with the suita thing. Oh, and also nice suita tend to look cool too, which helps their popularity and sales. (Good change from the usual plain brown of many finishers.) So, basically I'm saying that suita have a 'name' but people shouldn't get too carried away with them. With Adam above, if he happens to buy a suita that's suitable for razors and knives, I like AV's idea about looking for a sunashi which could be kinder and gentler, and also to make sure for the sake of the razor that it's a cleaner specimen as suita can be full of stuff. Probably better value and more predictability with tomae, though.

Kiita - as opposed to the other names mentioned above, 'kiita' is just a comment on a fine Kyoto stone's appearance. ('Kii'=yellow) It doesn't refer to layer or origin, except insofar as non-fine finisher type stones from around Japan tend not to be called 'kiita' even if they're yellow. 'Kiita's just an observation of the appearance of yellowish (or yellowish-orangeish or greenish) fine stones or awasedo. 'Kiita' will usually be tomae layer, too, as so many fine stones are. It's true that it might be possible that yellowish stones from one mine are a bit different than others with other colours, but it's also quite possible that they're generally not different apart from appearance, so I think we can't generalise about kiita. On the other hand, when it comes to use and appearance it's nice to have a lighter-coloured stone (a 'shiro' white suita, or a kiita that is yellow and not brown or grey) because they're easier to use and see what's happening with compared to darker stones. I wouldn't recommend 'kiita' as a class of stones, as above, because they're not, even if it seems that way because of how they're marketed/sold. It's probably also good to point out that, while no one should call a stone a 'shobu' unless it hails from that source, or a suita unless it's of that layer, with aesthetic names like 'kiita' the sellers - be they Japanese or foreign - will probably apply the 'kiita' label wherever they see fit, not as any sort of trick (I think sellers are pretty honest in Japan and elsewhere), but just because if a stone is yellowish then, wll fair enough, we can call it a 'kiita' then. (Of course it will also help sales sometimes too when terms are fuzzy or misunderstood, and there will probably be buyers who will react, 'Cool! A kiita!' and then pull the trigger.)


----------



## Andrey V

I kept it shorter, Asteger
Kiita is not the class definition, sure. But as you told above helps to sell ( for us- often determine) a good ( often Tomae) stone. 
I offered the idea to get a Tomae, and to afford a Kiita means actually " to get a good fine clean clear Tomae", which is more expensive. 
All in all- we told with you actually the same things. 
Tomae is a thick layer normally, that's why the quarry men had their rephrased sentence - "found Tomae- found the food for a long time". Kiita , being yellowish, shows the changes while sharpening very good. It's consistency and solidity provides certain sharpening stability, if the stone is really clean. And, normally, Kiitas are not only good looking stones, but very good fine Awasedos as well. 
Cheers &#127863;&#127863;


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Kiita is not the class definition, sure. But as you told above helps to sell ( for us- often determine) a good ( often Tomae) stone.
> I offered the idea to get a Tomae, and to afford a Kiita means actually " to get a good fine clean clear Tomae", which is more expensive.
> All in all- we told with you actually the same things.
> Tomae is a thick layer normally, that's why the quarry men had their rephrased sentence - "found Tomae- found the food for a long time". Kiita , being yellowish, shows the changes while sharpening very good. It's consistency and solidity provides certain sharpening stability, if the stone is really clean. And, normally, Kiitas are not only good looking stones, but very good fine Awasedos as well.



Yes, exactement. And I have another suspicion: I think the 'kiita' term might actually be more popular in our small foreign community of stoneheads when compared to Japan. Would be funny if true. And if so, this could again be because of sales talk, how names catch on, and how for example something like 'yellow Atago' might sound in comparison to the more exotic _Atago kiita_. ('Well, they're both yellow, but that 2nd one sounds best to me. I'll take it!') 

... Not saying that all terms should be translated (often not possible) just that there are lots of misunderstandings and pitfalls.


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## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Exactement. And I have another suspicion: I think the 'kiita' term might actually be more popular in our small foreign community of stoneheads when compared to Japan. If true, this could again be because of sales talk, how names catch on, and how for example something like 'yellow Atago' might sound in comparison to the more exotic _Atago kiita_. ('Well, they're both yellow, but that 2nd one sounds best to me. I'll take it!')



Peut-être, mais...
You know, the name is the name, but if you wouldn't find the numerous confirmations, you wouldn't take this into consideration [emoji41]. 
Anyway- the yellow To are very cool [emoji12][emoji106]. 
The best Tomae are normally finer, then Suita. Kii-to are the kings in fine stones. My best Tomae are just awesome... Really to die for [emoji12][emoji12][emoji12][emoji111]&#65039;[emoji2][emoji2].


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## Asteger

D'accord. And 'tomae' - that's another term to think about. I think in the foreign stone world, people get a little too excited things like over 'kiita' and 'suita' or even actually something like 'aoto' - while 'tomae' seems to have little prestige, when in fact most finishers are probably going to be tomae. _Yes, if possible sell that stone as a kiita or asagi or whatever, and if not then we'll just have to call it 'tomae' but we won't get much for it though._ :whistling:

Oh, and one more thing about 'kiita' I forgot - the term probably sells and lends some prestige because it borrows a bit from Nakayama, where it seems lots of kiita stones were found, and of course they have quite a good rep.


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## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> D'accord. And 'tomae' - that's another term to think about. I think in the foreign stone world, people get a little too excited things like over 'kiita' and 'suita' or even actually something like 'aoto' - while 'tomae' seems to have little prestige, when in fact most finishers are probably going to be tomae. _Yes, if possible sell that stone as a kiita or asagi or whatever, and if not then we'll just have to call it 'tomae' but we won't get much for it though._ :whistling:



Bien sûr. A Tomae can be very expensive due to it's features. That's why it's so important to have trusted vendors and to understand by yourself what do you expect/know from the stone. What for and why. Many guys want to get fine Awasedos only because they are prestigious expensive stones. In fact some knives can loose their functionality by honing then on too fine stones( like hunting knives). The other knives just need fine stones ( like Yanagiba). So there is nothing to be defined as " must have" or " should be done only like this"... All up to the settled goals ..


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## designdog

Revenons a nos moutons. Can we also consider the descriptive: "but black slurry appears soon". So what? Soon after forcing it with a Nagura? And when it does appear, what is the result?

I do think there is a disconnect between what the typical purveyor of Japanese natural stones and the typical Western user of them perceives. Everyone that has sold me a stone (except for private individuals here) is coming from a traditional single bevel hon kasumi environment. Yet 90% of the sharpening I am doing is on double bevels, fortunately mostly carbon. Probably typical.

While there are similarities, it really is a different ball game. Or at least I see it that way. Chacun voit midi à sa porte.


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## Asteger

Wow, DD. I'd say you've won the Quiz Français with those two humdingers. But, revenons a nos moutons. Right about the 1-bev background to things, but also tools and even razors. Relatively few nats are bought for knives around the world, and I think lots go to carpenters, etc, in Japan. Abroad, I think the razor contingent has had a big influence, and so things like Tsushima nagura have a big name to us, when they aren't the nicest for sharpening knives, along with hard finishers too (which get get so hard that even perhaps one AndreyV might not be into them).


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## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Wow, DD. I'd say you've won the Quiz Français with those two humdingers. But, revenons a nos moutons. Right about the 1-bev background to things, but also tools and even razors. Relatively few nats are bought for knives around the world, and I think lots go to carpenters, etc, in Japan. Abroad, I think the razor contingent has had a big influence, and so things like Tsushima nagura have a big name to us, when they aren't the nicest for sharpening knives, along with hard finishers too (which get get so hard that even perhaps one AndreyV might not be into them).



[emoji41][emoji41][emoji41] 
Tsushima Tsushima..
I don't like the stone. Being almost the most consistent stone of all it feels like synthetic. Of course it's different, but ... Starting with the sound. 
As to me it can't be compared directly with the other stone. Quite unique. Being black gives milky whitish slurry, that's funny. Works very well with Asanos. 
But.. Chu is quicker, if to take ~same grit. A bunch of coarser stones is more effective, some Aotos are better as well. 
Tsushima is good for tools and razors. I can't say it's useless for kitchen knives, not at all, it's a good affordable brick. Just not among my favorites. 
Maybe because of less important features ( sound, feeling). 
Extra Hard stones- agree, useless on knives. Good on razors/ tools.


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## Dazedandkasumi

So guys I have a question for you.

I have given this one some thought, and came up with different thesis. Hope you can help me clarify.
As I am fairly new to jnats I have little to no experience with naguras (other than using a diamond-plate or another stone as a nagura).

Nagura is (at least in the western understanding) a wide term used on something to help generate slurry by rubbing something on the base-stone. Naguras could be asano/mikawa-nagura, tomo-nagura and diamond plate.
The asano/mikawa (as I understand it) is usually used in a progression from coarse to fine nagura and then finish with just the base stone. 
Tomo-nagura (tomo=same kind) is used to rub of grit-particles from the base/and nagura on harder stone to generate slurry.
Diamond-plate works like a tom-nagura, but the grit-particles solely coming from the base stone.
Is all of the above right?

So here is my questions:

-When using naguras of any kind, is it always just the softest stone giving of grit-particles. Like if using a mikawa-botan nagura (medium-grit) on a (lets say) hard-Aoto (or other medium-hard/fine stone) what particles will make up the slurry? Will it be a mix of both or only particles from one?

-And if using a (tomo-)nagura (or in this case a small hard stone) like a nakayama nagura on the hard-Aoto (or other softer than nakayama base stone). What will be the case in this instance? Will the nagura act much like a diamond plate, just rubbing of particles of the softer stone, or will the slurry also contain nakayama particles? 

I guess my question could be simplified to something like this: When rubbing a small stone on a large stone what will be the determine factor of the slurry composition? Only particles from softest stone, only particles from coarsest stone, or particles from both stones?

I guess there isnt a definite answer to this. Just something that I have given some thought. It might give room for a lot playing, or it might as well not

Cheers,
Geir:happy222:


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## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> So guys I have a question for you.
> 
> I have given this one some thought, and came up with different thesis. Hope you can help me clarify.
> As I am fairly new to jnats I have little to no experience with naguras (other than using a diamond-plate or another stone as a nagura).
> 
> Nagura is (at least in the western understanding) a wide term used on something to help generate slurry by rubbing something on the base-stone. Naguras could be asano/mikawa-nagura, tomo-nagura and diamond plate.
> The asano/mikawa (as I understand it) is usually used in a progression from coarse to fine nagura and then finish with just the base stone.
> Tomo-nagura (tomo=same kind) is used to rub of grit-particles from the base/and nagura on harder stone to generate slurry.
> Diamond-plate works like a tom-nagura, but the grit-particles solely coming from the base stone.
> Is all of the above right?
> 
> So here is my questions:
> 
> -When using naguras of any kind, is it always just the softest stone giving of grit-particles. Like if using a mikawa-botan nagura (medium-grit) on a (lets say) hard-Aoto (or other medium-hard/fine stone) what particles will make up the slurry? Will it be a mix of both or only particles from one?
> 
> -And if using a (tomo-)nagura (or in this case a small hard stone) like a nakayama nagura on the hard-Aoto (or other softer than nakayama base stone). What will be the case in this instance? Will the nagura act much like a diamond plate, just rubbing of particles of the softer stone, or will the slurry also contain nakayama particles?
> 
> I guess my question could be simplified to something like this: When rubbing a small stone on a large stone what will be the determine factor of the slurry composition? Only particles from softest stone, only particles from coarsest stone, or particles from both stones?
> 
> I guess there isnt a definite answer to this. Just something that I have given some thought. It might give room for a lot playing, or it might as well not
> 
> Cheers,
> Geir:happy222:



I would say- try to prevent the diamond nagura. 
-You scrub the particles from the surface, making it coarser. 
-Why to use The hard Nakayama on Aoto? You can say- why not, it works. But... Actually, you are free to do whatever you want/like. Normally you use Tomo on same stone. Or equal. 
-The softer stone gives more particles for slurry by rubbing it, it's clear. 
-The Botan is not that coarse. There are some Botans which are on harder side, they act like finer Naguras
-The slurry you get is a mix of particles of both stones. When you use facial scrub at the end you have a mix of the scrub by itself +removed skin particles. Same with the stone. 
No magic, just combinations &practicing.


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## Dazedandkasumi

Andrey V said:


> -Why to use The hard Nakayama on Aoto? You can say- why not, it works. But... Actually, you are free to do whatever you want/like. Normally you use Tomo on same stone. Or equal.


The Aizu I recently bought seems to give of plenty slurry on some knives/steels and not so much (or taking more time) on others. Aizu tomo-nagura is kind of hard to get I think. So my idea was that a hard tomo-nagura (like a nakayama or harder than Aizu) would act as a natural "diamond-fingerstone'ish" nagura.

I bought a set of asano's from Maxim. Im going to play some with them. Looking forward to experimenting. Part of my enjoyment is the wide range of solutions, from stones and steels. The range seems so much greater than with synths

I apriciate your feedback Andrey! hope others also would chimn in (Astger?:biggrin


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## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> The Aizu I recently bought seems to give of plenty slurry on some knives/steels and not so much (or taking more time) on others. Aizu tomo-nagura is kind of hard to get I think. So my idea was that a hard tomo-nagura (like a nakayama or harder than Aizu) would act as a natural "diamond-fingerstone'ish" nagura.
> 
> I bought a set of asano's from Maxim. Im going to play some with them. Looking forward to experimenting. Part of my enjoyment is the wide range of solutions, from stones and steels. The range seems so much greater than with synths
> 
> I apriciate your feedback Andrey! hope others also would chimn in (Astger?:biggrin



The Asano Naguras are considered to be used on hard fine stones for razors, actually. They can be used for knife sharpening as well. 
To use them on Aizu.. Well.... You can, but this will upgrade the slurry. You'll loose in coarseness. But try it by yourself. 
Experimenting is the best part of the game .


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## Asteger

Good questions above, I think.

With some I don't think any of us knows anything special, apart from using common sense. I think if you rub 2 different stones together of any type, you'll get some slurry that'll be a mix of both, and maybe more from one than the other, depending of course. If one's harder and finer, and the other softer and coarser, you'll probably get more of the coarse slurry appearing. Or if the finer stone is softer, and the coarser one harder, probably you'll get more of the fine slurry in the mix. I guess the only general thing to be wary of might be if you're using a coarser nagura on a finer stone, while you're probably going to be safe with a finer nagura on a coarser base stone.

Not many people have tomonagura. (Ie. not the JNS 'tomonagura' which, as you know, is a nice soft nagura stone, but which as with other things is misleadingly named.) I think some of the razor sharpener stone nuts have them most often, which makes sense. Doesn't Aframes sell some for finishers? Me, I have lots of Asano, big and small, Mikawa, a JNS 'tomonagura', Tsushima, a couple small mistery nagura, and I also had a Natsuya break on me, and so have cut that up a bit, and found that it gives great slurry for polishing. 

With Aizu, I've had 2 and so would rub them together. (Hey, tomonagura can be big too.) However, rubbing 2 big stones together usually means that they stick a bit, and so just as often I've used a diamond or also an Asano (a Botan, sure, or in theory better, a Yae-Botan - which is coarser than Botan, and the one I have happens to be quite hard). No problem with any of this, no toishi law broken, and I think using diamonds on an Aizu is fine because they're big and dense and would still take years to wear down. (Diamonds on a fine stone wouldn't be good, because such a mix of particles would be ripped up and mess up the fine slurry.)

One previous KKFer here (previous, I guess, as he only appears in order to sell on BST these days) used to have an Aizu, and on one side he cut grooves, which I thought was interesting. Often, people do this on larger nagura, including Asano, so they don't stick. Mainaman said he did it to use the Aizu to flatten stones (finer stones, I think, as with fine stones you wouldn't want to rip them up with a coarse flattener or diamond plate). Having a hard med stone like this, with grooves on one side, would be very useful for getting slurry on other med, coarser med, or even coarse stones, or to flatten fine stones too.

About nagura - the well-known ones are the white 'shiro' ones (Asano, or Mikawa) and black 'kuro' (Tsushima) but there are other stones called nagura too. I've got a white one - now I forget where it's from, will have to check - which isn't Asano or Mikawa. Another grey one I have is fine, but soft and the slurry breaks down a lot; I don't know the origin. Then of course, there's also the JNS 'tomo' too. (Does anyone know what stone that is? Not sure if it's considered a secret.) And then there's nagura you can cut from any broken stone you have. Also, as said, any other bigger stone you have can act as a nagura if they combo seems like it would work.


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## designdog

Another undocumented use for Asano Nagura is decoration on your kitchen table. I have the Botan, Tenjou, Mejiro trio, and they look awfully cute next to my coffee cup. Particularly when no one, including me, knows what those strange symbols mean...


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## riba

http://www.tomonagura.com/mikawa-nagura/mikawa-nagura-info/asano-stamps.html


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## Dazedandkasumi

First of all,Thank you Ger for the thorough response! I always enjoy reading your posts! You have a great way with words



Asteger said:


> Good questions above, I think.
> 
> With some I don't think any of us knows anything special, apart from using common sense. I think if you rub 2 different stones together of any type, you'll get some slurry that'll be a mix of both, and maybe more from one than the other, depending of course. If one's harder and finer, and the other softer and coarser, you'll probably get more of the coarse slurry appearing. Or if the finer stone is softer, and the coarser one harder, probably you'll get more of the fine slurry in the mix. I guess the only general thing to be wary of might be if you're using a coarser nagura on a finer stone, while you're probably going to be safe with a finer nagura on a coarser base stone.



This was very much in line with my thoughts before I made the post. Just common sense. Confirmed what I thought. 
Anyway, I think it is a topic worthy some discussion. Im probably not the only, and last one wondering about how different naguras act. 



> Not many people have tomonagura. (Ie. not the JNS 'tomonagura' which, as you know, is a nice soft nagura stone, but which as with other things is misleadingly named.) I think some of the razor sharpener stone nuts have them most often, which makes sense. Doesn't Aframes sell some for finishers? Me, I have lots of Asano, big and small, Mikawa, a JNS 'tomonagura', Tsushima, a couple small mistery nagura, and I also had a Natsuya break on me, and so have cut that up a bit, and found that it gives great slurry for polishing.



Takeshi does indeed sell tomo-naguras for finisher. He actually have a bunch of different types. My thought was that since these are hard stones, they would work well to raise slurry from a hard base-stone like the aizu (much the same way as a diamondplate, just not as aggressive). But if the tomo-nagura in such a instance also gives of slurry, the slurry-mix would be of a finer composition than that of just the base-stone. We dont always want this, if not its a stepping stone for a higher finish. So not always positive..

Anyway, I have some food for thoughts. Good to know that I wont break any toshi-law if I do a little experimentation:wink:
I think Ill go play with my stones now,
Thanks Guys!
Cheers,
Geir


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## Asteger

Hmm... One reaction reading the above again is how things are pretty unpredictable. Maybe one comparison is with cooking, where ingredients are natural and so, even if attempting to replicate and follow a set recipe, you have to use some judgement and adjust things on the day, depending on what you have and even how you feel. So too with this. Yes, you have your knives with your different metals and heat treats, etc, as anyone would. But then you've got your nat stones; each is different, though with variation more widespread with some stones than others. (Wouldn't be true with synths of the same kind, which shouldn't show variation.) And with nats you've also got the factor of there being a great variety of origins and layers, etc again, many of which aren't well known, and you might not know what you're getting. You've got human factors, too; who can say they are always a consistent sharpener when they intend to be? You might even have environmental factors; maybe even the water you use plays a part? There are other factors to throw into the mix, if you want to think about it. 

And so with nagura, where you have two individual stones interacting together, with things breaking down, and the knife you're using at the time. There are probably even chemical factors involved, and some types of reactions going on, in addition to oxidisation and rust production. The list goes on...

However, a natural approach - and probably a good one, as we're dealing with naturals where things can't be measured all the time like some might like to do - is to think about the above to an extent, but also to trust common sense and instinct. It's good to strive for clarity and rules and so on, but people (generally, not you, D&K) might search too much for the 'toishi law' sometimes, and not be as comfortable with less predictability, and so this approach might suit some but not appeal to others. It's the sort of thing that is good if you like experimentation and if that's what you're interested in, more than results, although the results can be great too.


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## Dazedandkasumi

As always, great food for thoughts Astger 
Im totally in line with what you write. Naturals is comparable with analog signals, and synths like digital signals. The depth and range in analog is infinite, while in digital is it either this or that (0 and 1).Easier to make "rules" or system when it comes to syntsh, because it will be either this or that. The outcome is given. Not so with nats. You have to experience and experiment to understand. And even than you might not totally understand.

So with naturals (like in nature itself) there will always be a wide range of variation (from stone to stone, stone to metal and so on..). But if we talk in general terms there will still be a lot of similarities whit nats. Like comparing two nakayamas, they will probably act somewhat differently (at least if you ask Andrey :rofl2. But when you compare them to a Aoto or a aizu the nakayamas will have more in common than an Aoto or aizu. We can talk about nakayamas and aotos, and (at least those who know these names) have somewhat of a understanding of what we are talking about (nakaymas finisher Aoto med/med-high). What Im trying to say (this is just common sense) is that we can talk in general terms, make systems (the system is there already) to better communicate the traits of stones. But as you say, it would be meaningless to make law, and anticipate that every stone called Aoto, nakayma or aizu will act the same way like synths do.


My point is that you can use some general rules or terms or whatever, like a system or an idea to have general understanding. We can talk about scratch-patterns, softness, sl
Slurry production. But we must always remember that this is general terms. 


Was this rant, or did it make sense?:scratchhead::lol2:
Geir


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## Asteger

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Was this rant, or did it make sense?:scratchhead::lol2: Geir



No idea. You're the only one who speaks Norwegian. :whistling:

About unpredictability, layered stones are the main trouble point: gotogi. You might know the mine and the layer, but still you can't be sure. Hard parts, soft parts, hard suji lines, etc. This applies to the various finishers, and also most aoto (ie. the Tanba type from the Kyoto area, Kyoto-fu, what is most often meant by 'aoto'). Other non-Kyoto stones are also formed by a kind of layering, but not the kind of parallel layering with gotogi and aoto, and also have unpredictability - for eg, Amakusa toratogi (the ones with red-white, lines - 'tiger-stones'). Other toratogi, too. You can imagine when you have layers of colour, that some parts will be harder or softer, etc. Oh, asano are layered too - but also have their unique testing/stamping system to guarantee some quality.

The stone forms in different ways. I don't know if KKF has any geologist members, but in my case I don't know much about the specifics. Other stones, like Aizu you mentioned, aren't layered and the ones I've handled are more similar and predictable. Of course the stones are/were found in a big 'layer' of some kind in a mine I guess, but the stones themselves don't have a layered construction and are more uniform. 

Tsushima have a rep for being very clean and predictable, true in my experience. I've also handled a few Wakayama kishu stones (often called 'Omura' though they are not the historic Omura from Kyushu; they're now known a bit here as JNS has recently sold a few of these) and they seem very consistent, despite being sandy. Ikarashi seem very good in this way. Aizu too. Hyotan Numata... Those big Mikawa 'chu nagura' too. There have been many more in the past, so impossible to list. But at least with stones like these, you are pretty assured what you're getting.


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## Andrey V

Hi, everyone here. 
Geir- we use already all the mentioned criteria. But there is no other possibility to create a unique system to determine the features worldwide. Check the sites of different vendors- they all use their own system to describe the stones. Based on hardness/ fineness. They describe slurry formation as well. We are free to include any other system, if it does exist. . 
I wanted to post some other thoughts: actually, thinking about all my numerous stones, i came to conclusion, that ACTUALLY you don't need all these progressions.. . The perfect result can be achieved just with 2, max 3 stones.. 
Hope I haven't shocked you. It doesn't mean I quit or something like that ( waiting for 2 new great stones .. Just come to same idea from time to time, the result is: I understand, that the hobby is a hobby, has nothing to do with reasonable behavior . 
It means we are free to get mad, invent anything, "fight" for own point of view etc. 
this is the main reason to continue to build up the Tennen Toishi House..


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## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> thinking about all my numerous stones, i came to conclusion, that ACTUALLY you don't need all these progressions.. . The perfect result can be achieved just with 2, max 3 stones..



Sure, me too. I'll usually just pull out 2, or maybe 3 stones, and see how they work. (I can't always remember or haven't decided yet which stones work best with which knife, etc.) I just like 2 or maybe 3, and then to see what each one can do. 

Most recent was 3. I had a Kato with chips: first a Kishu ('Omura' I mentioned above, but actually a yellow Kishu which is harder), then a medium Haguro (happy: almost sold this before, but worked so well this time so has a new home), then a pretty coarse suita. I wouldn't normally use the first Kishu, but it worked really well with the hard Kato steel. Ready to cut again.


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## designdog

Agree as well. Today I sharpened two American made SS knives bought on BST here (a new interest of mine which is becoming rapidly sated due to said makers predilection with Damascus and over the top handles - a peeve.)

Anyway, a Devin ITC and a HHH line knife, both in AEB-L. Took out the hard Aoto, Shinden Suita, and Nakayama Tomae. Very, very nice results. Next time I will use the Aizu...


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## Andrey V

I've got a lot of new ideas after first sharpening sessions of hunting knives made of real Damascus ( wootz) - the cementite structure of which needs the diamond or hardest stones. I was shocked seeing how it shaves my hardest stones, as if they were 1,5-2 lv soft .. Same with swords. 
That's why i say- it depends what kind of steel to use, every single steel has it's own features. F.ex- to polish a 150 years old sabre i used a damn hard Okudo Suita, and i saw the huge difference between a hard Ohira Suita and Okudo Suita. Same with techniques to use for it. I use some techniques taken from weapon sharpening on knives, sometimes it gives amazing results..
I mean this kind of experience is important to understand the nature of the metal &stone, how the marriage between the steel and the stone works and what does it mean.


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## Asteger

No way I'm going to let myself start spending money on sabres and hunting knives, which I have no use for. Well, of course I would have a use, but only one and the same as you, to mess around with stones with. I suppose might be better to start saving for my daughter's university, though. :sad0:



Andrey V said:


> ... to polish a 150 years old sabre i used a damn hard Okudo Suita, and i saw the huge difference between a hard Ohira Suita and Okudo Suita. Same with techniques to use for it. I use some techniques taken from weapon sharpening on knives, sometimes it gives amazing results..



Let me guess: the Okudo made the Ohira look a bit feable? 

As for the weapons sharpening, pls share more info on the techniques used. You mentioned 1 or more books you've used. I've only got the Art if J Sword Polishing. (Hope yours aren't in Russian, even if it is our 'secret language'.)


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## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> No way I'm going to let myself start spending money on sabres and hunting knives, which I have no use for. Well, of course I would have a use, but only one and the same as you, to mess around with stones with. I suppose might be better to start saving for my daughter's university, though. :sad0:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me guess: the Okudo made the Ohira look a bit feable?
> 
> As for the weapons sharpening, pls share more info on the techniques used. You mentioned 1 or more books you've used. I've only got the Art if J Sword Polishing. (Hope yours aren't in Russian, even if it is our 'secret language'.)



No, but not in a mix of canadian- tunesian- korean- japanese as well. 
Reg Okudo- that's clear, not a " hidden druid knowledge " . As i used to say: " the pipe is longer, the gas is thicker " . 
The fineness starts to play an important role on really special steels and alloys. Not so important on HRC58-59  or even under. 
But starting from 64-66... There's a question : brittle/hard, where to use, how to use, but the knives made of wootz are totally different, the man with regular sharpening skills won't be able to make something with the knife.. C'est la vie, mon ami.. No special books on this special matter, too rare to find. Übung macht den Meister. Die Meisterschaft kann man net versaufen...


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## Andrey V

Seriously speaking being in touch with some really cool blacksmiths i can tell- nothing helps just from reading- practicing rules the world. Theory is cool, one has to know it, but without serious practice it becomes the " sex in chats": can be funny, but has nothing to do with the real life [emoji12][emoji41]


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## designdog

Was geht ab? It occurs to me that I am overdone on my high end polishing stone, the Nakayama Tomae. I have multiple stones for each slot in a progression, but the final one  the "8-10k" equivalent, that would be after a suita. Any thoughts as to what stone to look for? Ozuku? Aiiwatani?

Aus der Reihe tanzen...


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## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Was geht ab? It occurs to me that I am overdone on my high end polishing stone, the Nakayama Tomae. I have multiple stones for each slot in a progression, but the final one  the "8-10k" equivalent, that would be after a suita. Any thoughts as to what stone to look for? Ozuku? Aiiwatani?
> 
> Aus der Reihe tanzen...



Wir können hier auch weiter deutsch reden, kapieren aber wenige..
Donc, Naka Tomae- if you are tired with the stone, an Aiiwa would be a great helper for you. 
Definitely. 
Though a good Suita ( there are so many, they are so different!) can be awesome as well. 
You seem to be in need of just some alternative to your beloved Naka. It happens. 
Take an Aiiwa. You should understand that a final finisher of such grade is used just to hone the knife, not to sharpen it. To refine the already well sharpened edge. I never tried an Ozuku which was good enough for knives. For razors and tools yes. And how YESSS. But too hard for knives. Almost useless. Aiiwa, par contre, is very useful first of all for knives. 
Maksim has very good source to get really good Aiiwatani. I use the even more often, then Naka.


----------



## designdog

Das ist ihr Problem...

OK I will try an Aiiwatani next purchase. Yes, I fully begreifen that the suitas I have, some of which are very good, are more than enough for a finished job. But there is even more!

The only option is the Okudo Renge Suita Takeshi has, but that is just more of the same for me...! I will try the Aii from Maksim.


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Das ist ihr Problem...
> 
> OK I will try an Aiiwatani next purchase. Yes, I fully begreifen that the suitas I have, some of which are very good, are more than enough for a finished job. But there is even more!
> 
> The only option is the Okudo Renge Suita Takeshi has, but that is just more of the same for me...! I will try the Aii from Maksim.



Okudo is super- cool, i like , no, I LOVE Okudo Suita, i have some, carefully selected. BTW- Takeshi has a hard type Okudo, i talked to him reg all his Okudos. 
I have my Okudo Suitas from different sources, but frankly speaking, my best ones come from Maksim. They are quite expensive stones, but Okudo is one if it's kind... Really really really good. But is non- forgiving, as all the hard fine stones. Avoid buying cheap Okudo, even 300-400$ seems to be a risky deal- i had this problems, but if you get a good ( eh he he- expensive) Okudo- you'll be happy with it. On super hard stones the knives tend to glide. That's all.


----------



## designdog

Andrey,
Perhaps I will wait for the King of Suitas. Tried my Shobu Iromono today. Don't know what fineness it is, but, other than being a bit narrow (which I wish I was) it is a really good stone.

OLD JOKE:
"What do you call a person that speaks three languages?"
"Trilingual."
"What do you call a person that speaks two languages?"
"Bilingual."
"What do you call a person who speaks one language?"
"American."

NEW JOKE
"What do you call a person that speaks three languages?"
"Google Translate.":wink:


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Andrey,
> Perhaps I will wait for the King of Suitas. Tried my Shobu Iromono today. Don't know what fineness it is, but, other than being a bit narrow (which I wish I was) it is a really good stone.
> 
> OLD JOKE:
> "What do you call a person that speaks three languages?"
> "Trilingual."
> "What do you call a person that speaks two languages?"
> "Bilingual."
> "What do you call a person who speaks one language?"
> "American."
> 
> NEW JOKE
> "What do you call a person that speaks three languages?"
> "Google Translate.":wink:



No " ok Google "  i do 6. 
What the difference between sixlingual and sexlingual? The sound..[emoji12][emoji12]. New joke [emoji102][emoji102][emoji41]. 

Wise decision indeed. Just explained to my friend that if i had the possibility to make the decision having today's experience, i would buy only the best stones to enjoy their features. 
The other joke: " if my grandma would have a di..k, she would be called grandpa "[emoji102][emoji102][emoji41]


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> The other joke: " if my grandma would have a di..k, she would be called grandpa "[emoji102][emoji102][emoji41]



Oh dear, all this exposure to stones is having the wrong effect.

About: 'I never tried an Ozuku which was good enough for knives. For razors and tools yes. ... But too hard for knives.' -- I have one! As a matter of fact, I think of it as an 'Andrey stone' and so it's funny you've had other reactions to Ozuku, AV. However, I guess I was lucky, and a fellow knife-nat-crazy had the same good opinion - about the stone, of course. I've only tried the one, though. No other Ozuku. Perhaps was lucky as I was able to buy from a collector instead of a seller. Come to think of it, 'Ozuku' isn't a name that springs up amongst knife-types that much.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Oh dear, all this exposure to stones is having the wrong effect.
> 
> About: 'I never tried an Ozuku which was good enough for knives. For razors and tools yes. ... But too hard for knives.' -- I have one! As a matter of fact, I think of it as an 'Andrey stone' and so it's funny you've had other reactions to Ozuku, AV. However, I guess I was lucky, and a fellow knife-nat-crazy had the same good opinion - about the stone, of course. I've only tried the one, though. No other Ozuku. Perhaps was lucky as I was able to buy from a collector instead of a seller. Come to think of it, 'Ozuku' isn't a name that springs up amongst knife-types that much.



Calm down, fellow![emoji41][emoji41]
I say, IMHO. I suppose there should be one waiting for me. 
But generally speaking Ozuku is known as a hard stone mine suitable for razors..

[emoji12][emoji12][emoji111]&#127995;. 
Nothing personal [emoji102][emoji102][emoji41]. 
I'm glad you have one which is so good. And I believe it. No aggression! Just easy, easy, breathe.. 
[emoji120]&#127995;. 
Seriously speaking I would be happy to see a stone which would impact me. Not from the roof falling down [emoji12][emoji12][emoji79][emoji79]. 
More interesting would be to see a knife which is out of everything. What could it be?? 
I think, there is a huge gap between the impression you get from the item( especially in stones) and it's features which come out later. Every stone has it's hidden power, hidden features, it has to be developed. This is the funny point we never discuss. Development of the stone. Nice name for a thread.


----------



## designdog

Could you two gentlemen look at my recent post in the Sharpening Station (on SS steel) and let me know your thoughts...?


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Could you two gentlemen look at my recent post in the Sharpening Station (on SS steel) and let me know your thoughts...?



You have my answer in the thread. [emoji120]&#127995;


----------



## zackerty

Might be a little off topic?

I was gifted a 10 inch Jnat grinding wheel for my Tormek, which is 8 inch...
So at some stage I will have to build a slow wet stone grinder...
I will dig it our and take a pic or two, if anyone thinks it fits the thread?


----------



## Andrey V

zackerty said:


> Might be a little off topic?
> 
> I was gifted a 10 inch Jnat grinding wheel for my Tormek, which is 8 inch...
> So at some stage I will have to build a slow wet stone grinder...
> I will dig it our and take a pic or two, if anyone thinks it fits the thread?



Binsui ?


----------



## zackerty

I do not know...it was bought from Dictum when my friend lived in Germany...
I will dig it out, and see if the cardboard box has any marking, and maybe even the stone itself?


----------



## Asteger

Interesting. I've never seen a natural grinding wheel. Definitely wouldn't be a layered stone! I guess you're saying the stone's too big for the Tormek you have? (By the way, never heard of a 'Tormek' before; had to google to confirm.)


----------



## zackerty

I last saw it about two years ago, and I remember various colours...
Yup, the stone is too big, as my Tormek is the smaller model, blue body..the bigger one is green...


----------



## Andrey V

zackerty said:


> I last saw it about two years ago, and I remember various colours...
> Yup, the stone is too big, as my Tormek is the smaller model, blue body..the bigger one is green...



Tormek is the best solution, if we talk about small grinding machines. Controlled low speed grinding with watering is good. As to me- not the best way to sharpen the carbon knives, but good for ss. 
There are different models, normally they have adjustable/ removable cover, it may help to adjust the diameter of the wheel you use. 
Requires special skills. High risk of getting hollow bevel. Due to small diameter of the wheel. That's why Tormek is very good for pocket and small utility knives ( outdoor as well). 
Our field- big long kitchen knives- the flat stone is better. Forget to sharpen single bevel on Tormek- you'll change geometry. Only flat stone. After all, i never saw higher grit stones for such grinder. So the finish should be done flat. 
The other risk with Tormek is the pressure control. It's done manually, on smaller knives it's easier to control, but on longer.. 
But anyway, Tormek is a cool double wheel sharpening station. 
Your natural wheel should be coarse one, like Binsui.


----------



## Andrey V

Hi, boys[emoji41][emoji111]&#127995;&#65039;
Have you seen my new toy? A huge great Aoto. Very cool. Very speedy one. Though i must say, it's much quicker on stainless, then on carbons. 
SS cries when gets sharpened on it. Higher grit then normally. Though what's normal????


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Sounds like a winner Andrey:doublethumbsup:
Is this a Tanba/kameoka aoto?



Andrey V said:


> View attachment 27276
> View attachment 27277
> View attachment 27278
> 
> Hi, boys[emoji41][emoji111]&#127995;&#65039;
> Have you seen my new toy? A huge great Aoto. Very cool. Very speedy one. Though i must say, it's much quicker on stainless, then on carbons.
> SS cries when gets sharpened on it. Higher grit then normally. Though what's normal????


----------



## Andrey V

Bought from Maksim, no idea. Looks so. Really cool piece of rock. Better then any Aoto i saw. Correction: i tried same quality one- Maksim's privat collection. I asked him to sell it- he resisted always, smiling. [emoji41]. Now i've got Aoto which deserves a nice place in my Tennen Toishi House [emoji41][emoji41][emoji12]


----------



## designdog

Andrew, very nice get! Maxsim has another monster Aoto for sale - good thing I already have four of them...


----------



## CoqaVin

ok so my search for a repair stone is on again, I know I have asked here before but I will again since it is probably pages back, since I work in the industry and stuff happens a lot of the time microchips, tip repair, ETC, what is the best coarse stone for repair purposes synthetic or natural?


----------



## designdog

My vote is either the JNS 400 or, even better, the new diamond stones Jon is acquiring. Don't think naturals are the best for repairs  my opinion.

I will also say the Jon's 1k diamond stone is fast becoming my "SS aoto" although you do have to be careful with it, as it removes a lot of steel. But it sets a great edge for future refinement, either with his 4k diamond stone, naturals, or both...


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> View attachment 27276
> Have you seen my new toy? A huge great Aoto. Very cool. Very speedy one. Though i must say, it's much quicker on stainless, then on carbons.
> SS cries when gets sharpened on it. Higher grit then normally. Though what's normal????



Looks v. nice from the top, and the size too. How hard/soft is it? Shame with Aoto how it's unusual to know much about their origin, which makes it more difficult to follow them and compare.


----------



## Andrey V

CoqaVin said:


> ok so my search for a repair stone is on again, I know I have asked here before but I will again since it is probably pages back, since I work in the industry and stuff happens a lot of the time microchips, tip repair, ETC, what is the best coarse stone for repair purposes synthetic or natural?



I would say- for described purposes I would recommend a Shapton Glass Pro (500 to repair/set the bevel, 280 for heavy problems)
I recommend Shapton Glass Pro quite often, because i use it myself( the only non- Jnat i have and like from all i tried in my life) 
It's very quick- it would be an argument for you for sure. Maksim's 300-er is good as well, but Shapton 
is more efficient. 
When we talk about naturals- you have to consider that every single Jnat can be better then a synthetic one, but can't be same good for all your steels. 
Coarse synthesis is equally good for any steel. Being an absolute Jnat freak i prefer to use Shapton if i need to repair something.
Be careful- it takes off the metal very fast, it becomes black in seconds..


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Looks v. nice from the top, and the size too. How hard/soft is it? Shame with Aoto how it's unusual to know much about their origin, which makes it more difficult to follow them and compare.



It's on harder side. Quite hard, but finer then expected. Very cool one. 
Agree reg origin. Aoto seem to be treated as " second sort creatures" made just for work not for love. I disagree completely. They have same huge variety, so some reasonable scale would be very useful. I mean not only hardness/ fineness, but origin ( maybe) layer as well. 
Made for work, not for love...


----------



## shownomarci

Hi,
I have a question to the experts here:
I was thinkin' about getting a ~1k stone for softer european knives. Which one would be better: a white binsui or a JNS 1k synth or something else?
Also need something to remove rust and polish an old knife. Is the 60 grit C powder good enough to do the trick?
BTW, the knife i am talking about:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...west-knife-buy?p=360242&viewfull=1#post360242


----------



## Andrey V

shownomarci said:


> Hi,
> I have a question to the experts here:
> I was thinkin' about getting a ~1k stone for softer european knives. Which one would be better: a white binsui or a JNS 1k synth or something else?
> Also need something to remove rust and polish an old knife. Is the 60 grit C powder good enough to do the trick?
> BTW, the knife i am talking about:
> http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...west-knife-buy?p=360242&viewfull=1#post360242



Hi, shownomarci
I would say- get a 1k synthetic one from JNS
Jnats require following Jnats
If you have them- ok, otherwise.. 1K JNS is just more versatile then Binsui. Binsui is great in general, but not that efficient on some steels. Softer EU steels show normally very good results ( like Wüsthoff, Sabatier, Zwilling, WMF). 1 K will show same result and is quicker. Even me ( being an absolute Jnat freak [emoji12][emoji12]) have bought this great synthetic stone. Btw- JNS 300 is a " must have" as well, for repairs is highly recommended [emoji106]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;. Cheap & great. Jnats are great to follow it up. 
Reg rust- take JNS 80 grit powder- you'll need a piece of natural cork - that's all. It will gently remove the rust from your old Sabatier easily. 
Cheers


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

I was sure the thread was dead..
It has been a while since I posted. Lots of things happening at the moment..
Anyway I have got a few new stones lately. 

One was sold as an old unknown stone from a barbershop. Supposedly 3-4k grit'ish (mid-range).. (after I have used it I am pretty sure this is a takashima. not what I was hoping for).

The other stone is a nakayama iromono kanmaki (not happy with this one either, as the kanmaki seems to have inclusion)..


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

hmm.. the picture will not show..

I have uploaded the picture to photobucket, added the link or html code to the post.
Im probably doing something wrong:eyebrow:


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> hmm.. the picture will not show..
> 
> I have uploaded the picture to photobucket, added the link or html code to the post.
> Im probably doing something wrong:eyebrow:



[emoji102][emoji102][emoji102][emoji102][emoji102]


----------



## Andrey V

Here is my new very cool Atago Kiita
Very , very interesting stone. 
Fine, hard enough, quick. I like it very much. 
I've been waiting for such Atago Kiita for some years. 
Bingo!![emoji41][emoji41][emoji106]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Looks nice Andrey


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Looks nice Andrey



Feels nice as well.


----------



## designdog

Andrey,

Where, in a progression, would that stone fit?


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Andrey,
> 
> Where, in a progression, would that stone fit?



Hi, DD
The last one, as an ultimate finisher


----------



## cheflarge

What a cool thread....... I'm going to have to start hanging out here a little more often! :cool2:


----------



## Andrey V

cheflarge said:


> What a cool thread....... I'm going to have to start hanging out here a little more often! :cool2:



Welcome!![emoji120]&#127995;[emoji120]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

cheflarge said:


> What a cool thread....... I'm going to have to start hanging out here a little more often! :cool2:



Welcome aboard :doublethumbsup:

(I'll have to warn you it may become expansive :O but fun it is for sure )


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Welcome aboard :doublethumbsup:
> 
> (I'll have to warn you it may become expansive :O but fun it is for sure )



Oh yeah..[emoji12][emoji12][emoji111]&#127995;&#65039;
So let's refresh& shake it a bit!!


----------



## Asteger

No, the thread never died (though I suggested we start a new one a while back). Sometimes it's just hibernate time.

Me, for 2 months or more I've been stoned out. Was writing a long essay that still isn't really done. But now it's summer.

Nothing new for me really. I'll probably try and sell a few again in a few months, and get a new knife or two.

The Atago looks sweet, btw, AV.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> No, the thread never died (though I suggested we start a new one a while back). Sometimes it's just hibernate time.
> 
> Me, for 2 months or more I've been stoned out. Was writing a long essay that still isn't really done. But now it's summer.
> 
> Nothing new for me really. I'll probably try and sell a few again in a few months, and get a new knife or two.
> 
> The Atago looks sweet, btw, AV.



It does, Asteger
It does.. I 've been hunted for such a cool one since...
Atamoyama gives sometimes incredible stones, this is one of them. 
I've got some really cool knives as well- 2 Kato Yanagiba, a regular one and a incredible one, made of old real Tamahagane ( Kato's stock he uses to make his legendary Katanas). It took time to convince him to do it, but Maksim has managed it. 
Please don't ask about the price- i sold 4 new knives ( Kato Gyuto Western 240 rare ringed gidgee, Kato Suji 220, Yoshikane Yanagiba 270, and even Shigefusa Kitaeji Yanagiba 300 mm!!). All this wasn't even the half of my Dream Yanagiba...[emoji23][emoji23][emoji79]. 
Now i start polishing it. Real cool hard Tamahagane, something really special. I have one " modern Tamahagane " Gyuto- no comparison, btw.. 
Got 2 synthetic stones!!! from JNS (300+1000)/ they are really quick. Especially 300-er. Very cool as a repair/bevel setter. As I told before- in this grit naturals are slower. But after .. Yuppie!! [emoji41]


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Atamoyama gives sometimes incredible stones, this is one of them.
> I've got some really cool knives as well- 2 Kato Yanagiba, a regular one and a incredible one, made of old real Tamahagane ( Kato's stock he uses to make his legendary Katanas). It took time to convince him to do it, but Maksim has managed it.
> Please don't ask about the price- i sold 4 new knives ( Kato Gyuto Western 240 rare ringed gidgee, Kato Suji 220, Yoshikane Yanagiba 270, and even Shigefusa Kitaeji Yanagiba 300 mm!!). All this wasn't even the half of my Dream Yanagiba...[emoji23][emoji23][emoji79].
> Now i start polishing it. Real cool hard Tamahagane, something really special. I have one " modern Tamahagane " Gyuto- no comparison, btw..
> Got 2 synthetic stones!!! from JNS (300+1000)/ they are really quick. Especially 300-er. Very cool as a repair/bevel setter. As I told before- in this grit naturals are slower. But after .. Yuppie!! [emoji41]



Okay, shite, now you're getting me interested in Atago more.

This Kato - Well, AV you tend to buy stuff on a different level then most of us. Sounds like a total objet d'art! ... But way up in Moscow, very far from the sea, how much can you use it?

I've had the 300 for a while; yes, prob the most freqent choice for me in that region. I get annoyed by softness with coarse stones, but not a problem with this one. If you're used to naturals, the soaking needed for other coarse stones is also a drag in comparison. 

Haven't tried the JNS 1k; the Chosera 1k seemed to carry more recommendation, including by a big natural fanatic former member here.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Okay, shite, now you're getting me interested in Atago more.
> 
> This Kato - Well, AV you tend to buy stuff on a different level then most of us. Sounds like a total objet d'art! ... But way up in Moscow, very far from the sea, how much can you use it?
> 
> I've had the 300 for a while; yes, prob the most freqent choice for me in that region. I get annoyed by softness with coarse stones, but not a problem with this one. If you're used to naturals, the soaking needed for other coarse stones is also a drag in comparison.
> 
> Haven't tried the JNS 1k; the Chosera 1k seemed to carry more recommendation, including by a big natural fanatic former member here.



Reg 1k- i just took it. No promotion. It's just good. I liked it more then his new splash& go. 
Reg sea.. Well, we have it all ( there are 1bill of flights from all over the world bringing seafood [emoji41])
After all, a slicer can be used on any protein, doesn't it??[emoji41][emoji41] 
After all- it's a piece of art, can you imagine- half a year of Uchigomori polishing .. Nice..


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

I have missed you Ger! Hope the see more from you here Please give me a hint before you move any of your stones:knife:

Guys, I have this Okuda Suita on hand.. Its from one of our trusted vendors. Its supposed to be great. Not to hard or to soft.. Fast cutting.. Want something to finish my yanagi after the lv 3 atago..

What do you think, jay or ney?

http://s1045.photobucket.com/user/geirwalbo/library/okuda%20suita

Geir


----------



## designdog

The King of Suita! Hard for me to tell from photos. How does it feel to you?

I have also been sans stones for a bit, making a foray into American knives. Now have Markos, Devins, Catcheside (Brtit) Rodrigue, HHH, Ealys. My best is a lovely San Mai PM by Devin. Not a Damascus among 'em!

Now trying my sharpening skills with SS...


----------



## Asteger

Slurry looks alright, but a bit ugly! Looks like it'd be almost too hard, but not too hard. Doesn't have that inky black slurry (forget the Japanese word for this) so doesn't look super fast/aggressive, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing as some suita can feel too 'gripy' or aggressive and not smooth to sharpen on. 

AV - wow! Fantastic kanji on that too. How much? I'm prepared to offer you several thousand Rubles if needed


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Asteger said:


> Slurry looks alright, but a bit ugly! Looks like it'd be almost too hard, but not too hard. Doesn't have that inky black slurry (forget the Japanese word for this) so doesn't look super fast/aggressive, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing as some suita can feel too 'gripy' or aggressive and not smooth to sharpen on.
> 
> AV - wow! Fantastic kanji on that too. How much? I'm prepared to offer you several thousand Rubles if needed



Not the prettiest specimen for sure. But first and foremost is performance. The price is on par with the recent Ohira suitas lv 3,5. This one is bigger. I have not tried it, but have been told that it should be finer than my atago but not as fine as a nakayama..

I think Ill just grab it..

I have bought some different kiridashis/kogatanas of late for woodcarving. Hopefully it would finish of these nicely

Love the Kato Andrey. Must cost a kidney


----------



## Asteger

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Not the prettiest specimen for sure. But first and foremost is performance. The price is on par with the recent Ohira suitas lv 3,5. This one is bigger. I have not tried it, but have been told that it should be finer than my atago but not as fine as a nakayama..
> 
> I think Ill just grab it..
> 
> I have bought some different kiridashis/kogatanas of late for woodcarving. Hopefully it would finish of these nicely
> 
> Love the Kato Andrey. Must cost a kidney



Yeah, though the 'King of Suita' as DD said, Okudo haven't traditionally been associated with kitchen knife sharpening. In fact, I don't think suita have been associated with k.knives that much at all, really. However, if you're going to use it on tools and stuff that's a different story, in which case you might still like to have an 'inkier' stone.


----------



## designdog

Asteger,

I actually like the JNS 800, and the 6k for synthetics. The JKI soakers are also really good, at 2, 4, and 8k.


----------



## Asteger

designdog said:


> Asteger,
> 
> I actually like the JNS 800, and the 6k for synthetics. The JKI soakers are also really good, at 2, 4, and 8k.



I have the JNS 800 and, yes, nice one. (Isn't the King 800 very similar by cheaper?) Haven't tried any JKI stones.


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> I have missed you Ger! Hope the see more from you here Please give me a hint before you move any of your stones:knife:
> 
> Guys, I have this Okuda Suita on hand.. Its from one of our trusted vendors. Its supposed to be great. Not to hard or to soft.. Fast cutting.. Want something to finish my yanagi after the lv 3 atago..
> 
> What do you think, jay or ney?
> 
> http://s1045.photobucket.com/user/geirwalbo/library/okuda%20suita
> 
> Geir



Hi, Geir
Just from the photo it looks like something from MetalMaster or..
I never saw good softer Okudos, they tend to be on harder side.. Atago gives very different stones- just to say which one has lv3- and if to use your Okudo after or not- you should decide. 
After all- which knives should be sharpened? 
If Okudo feels finer- sure, it can be used for this task. You know it- it's a basic principle: the progression will be built of sharpening tools from coarse to fine- it means, the finer the stone is- the higher it sits in the progression. If you need a super smooth cut- you need a fine harder stone at the end. Any Suita will leave toothier edge because of Su. 
Need the fine but still micro-serrated edge- use Suitas for it. Microserrator will be smoother ( precise separation cut) when finishing the blade on some fine Tomae. 
Depends on task and personal preferences. 
Not discovering America, just thinking loud [emoji41][emoji41][emoji12]. 
Cheers
Andrey


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Slurry looks alright, but a bit ugly! Looks like it'd be almost too hard, but not too hard. Doesn't have that inky black slurry (forget the Japanese word for this) so doesn't look super fast/aggressive, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing as some suita can feel too 'gripy' or aggressive and not smooth to sharpen on.
> 
> AV - wow! Fantastic kanji on that too. How much? I'm prepared to offer you several thousand Rubles if needed



Sold kidney for it already??? [emoji41]


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Not the prettiest specimen for sure. But first and foremost is performance. The price is on par with the recent Ohira suitas lv 3,5. This one is bigger. I have not tried it, but have been told that it should be finer than my atago but not as fine as a nakayama..
> 
> I think Ill just grab it..
> 
> I have bought some different kiridashis/kogatanas of late for woodcarving. Hopefully it would finish of these nicely
> 
> Love the Kato Andrey. Must cost a kidney



Funny- just answered to Asteger exactly in same manner.[emoji12][emoji12]. 
Kiridashi/Kogatana- ok. If you like the stone- it's important. Good Okudo ( i love them, sure have some in top quality) give blackish very recognizable slurry, here it isn't the case. If you like it and the price is awesome- ok. Okudo works great on harder steels, that's why it's so beloved by woodworkers. 
Most kitchen knives tend to slip on it's surface. But hard great ones get extremely keen edge. Highly polished.


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Actually the stone is from Tomohito..
I have delt with him on several ocations. Great guy! 
He said that it would leave a higher finish than my atago, but not as fine as some nakayamas..
The price was just shy of $400..
Maybe Ill have to buy o lv4 Aiiwa from Maxim next time?
After all I have had best luck with stones from Maxim


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Andrey V said:


> Sold kidney for it already??? [emoji41]



God had a plan when he gave us two kidneys:rofl2:

Think of what you can get for a lung:scratchhead:


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Actually the stone is from Tomohito..
> I have delt with him on several ocations. Great guy!
> He said that it would leave a higher finish than my atago, but not as fine as some nakayamas..
> The price was just shy of $400..
> Maybe Ill have to buy o lv4 Aiiwa from Maxim next time?
> After all I have had best luck with stones from Maxim



Just some explanation: I didn't want to offend your source- just told you my point of view- for 400$ Okudo it is ok. Okudos are expensive, but very interesting pro-user stones. 
The Aiiwa or Atago ( both Kiitas) will offer much more in terms of fineness for sure. Respecting your stones. Both give consistent quality. Very interesting to use. 
Now some other explanation why JNS stones are good: this last Gathering i met finally his Japanese partner. This is the secret! Being the supervisor in the wood carving tools museum in Seki ( he cares about Jnat section there as well) he is very good in stones selection for Maksim. That's why you get great quality. Just a good pre-selection. Easy, but hard to arrange. Now i should require some commission for such promotion ![emoji12][emoji12][emoji12]. 
Trusted source is very important. 
I would recommend you to look at something in the range of ca 600$ and up (4500-5000+DKK). Such a stone will offer you required result. 
Cheers


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> God had a plan when he gave us two kidneys:rofl2:
> 
> Think of what you can get for a lung:scratchhead:



I wish fat & sh..t. would be same valuable..[emoji12][emoji12]


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Andrey V said:


> Just some explanation: I didn't want to offend your source- just told you my point of view- for 400$ Okudo it is ok. Okudos are expensive, but very interesting pro-user stones.
> The Aiiwa or Atago ( both Kiitas) will offer much more in terms of fineness for sure. Respecting your stones. Both give consistent quality. Very interesting to use.
> Now some other explanation why JNS stones are good: this last Gathering i met finally his Japanese partner. This is the secret! Being the supervisor in the wood carving tools museum in Seki ( he cares about Jnat section there as well) he is very good in stones selection for Maksim. That's why you get great quality. Just a good pre-selection. Easy, but hard to arrange. Now i should require some commission for such promotion ![emoji12][emoji12][emoji12].
> Trusted source is very important.
> I would recommend you to look at something in the range of ca 600$ and up (4500-5000+DKK). Such a stone will offer you required result.
> Cheers



I did not take it as offence of my source Andrey

The stone is not the prettiest example for sure. But as they say, the proof is in the pudding. It is intended for use, not show:biggrin: I was assured that it preformed great. No inclusions, or cracks that can be felt.. I trust the seller, as I have nothing but positive experience buying from him.. 
If the stone turn out not up to sellers description thats the sellers loss, as you only buy **** one time. Right? 

That said, up until now I have had best luck buying from Maxim. So when Im getting that Aiiwa or Atago Kiita it will probably come from him..

My last shopping frenzy on JNS I bought a straight razor and a wakasa lv 4.5.. Yesterday I experimented with the wakasa on a Watanabe kiridashi. Started with koma slurry, and ended with slurry only from the wakasa (it actually produced adequate slurry without any form of nagura). The result was great actually, I expected that the wakasa might be too hard, which it was not..


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> I did not take it as offence of my source Andrey
> 
> The stone is not the prettiest example for sure. But as they say, the proof is in the pudding. It is intended for use, not show:biggrin: I was assured that it preformed great. No inclusions, or cracks that can be felt.. I trust the seller, as I have nothing but positive experience buying from him..
> If the stone turn out not up to sellers description thats the sellers loss, as you only buy **** one time. Right?
> 
> That said, up until now I have had best luck buying from Maxim. So when Im getting that Aiiwa or Atago Kiita it will probably come from him..
> 
> My last shopping frenzy on JNS I bought a straight razor and a wakasa lv 4.5.. Yesterday I experimented with the wakasa on a Watanabe kiridashi. Started with koma slurry, and ended with slurry only from the wakasa (it actually produced adequate slurry without any form of nagura). The result was great actually, I expected that the wakasa might be too hard, which it was not..



Sorry, if i touched you &#128540;&#128526;&#9996;&#127995;&#128591;&#127995;. 
There are more good sellers in the world, sure not only Maksim, all your personal sources should be respected
After all, i'm not his lawer&#128540;&#128540;. 
Great you like your Wakasa- they tend to be hard. But not to forget- you've sharpened the kiridashi, the tools need harder stones..
So again, sorry. Anyway, 2 offered stones could be a really good addition to your sharpening set up. 
Cheers&#128591;


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Andrey V said:


> Sorry, if i touched you &#128540;&#128526;&#9996;&#127995;&#128591;&#127995;.
> There are more good sellers in the world, sure not only Maksim, all your personal sources should be respected
> After all, i'm not his lawer&#128540;&#128540;.
> Great you like your Wakasa- they tend to be hard. But not to forget- you've sharpened the kiridashi, the tools need harder stones..
> So again, sorry. Anyway, 2 offered stones could be a really good addition to your sharpening set up.
> Cheers&#128591;



Oh you did not offend me Andrey I value your openness. After all when I ask for your advice I'm after your impressions, not just what suits me best

One of the good things with forums like this one is that sources is discussed openly. If someone have a bad buying experience this will affect the seller as the costumers are the participants of these forums.. Transparency is good for everyone, right?  Anyway, I have not gotten the discussed stone yet. When I do get it I will get back to you. If the stone is not up to the sellers description I will contact him to take it back. But until than I think it is fair to not judge the stone (or the seller for that matter), as pictures dont always give the right impression of the real deal..


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Oh you did not offend me Andrey I value your openness. After all when I ask for your advice I'm after your impressions, not just what suits me best
> 
> One of the good things with forums like this one is that sources is discussed openly. If someone have a bad buying experience this will affect the seller as the costumers are the participants of these forums.. Transparency is good for everyone, right?  Anyway, I have not gotten the discussed stone yet. When I do get it I will get back to you. If the stone is not up to the sellers description I will contact him to take it back. But until than I think it is fair to not judge the stone (or the seller for that matter), as pictures dont always give the right impression of the real deal..



Agree!&#128591;&#127995;
Let's rise the glasses&#127863;&#127863;&#127863;&#128077;&#127995;! 
Waiting for your opinion 
Cheers


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Andrey V said:


> Agree!&#128591;&#127995;
> Let's rise the glasses&#127863;&#127863;&#127863;&#128077;&#127995;!
> Waiting for your opinion
> Cheers



Ill report asap

Nostrovia:doublethumbsup:


----------



## designdog

Tomorrow I will take delivery of a Mizuno blue steel honyaki 240 gyuto! The real thing!

I wonder if any of you have experience with honyaki and jnats. I do have a 210 Watanabe blue steel honyaki of questionable provenance. It is mono layer, it is Watanabe, it was expensive, but has no hamon. Sharpens like any other carbon knife.

And that is how I plan to approach the Mizuno - like any other carbon knife: Okabana Aoto, Hakka, Ohira Suita, Nakayama Kita.

Any thoughts? Thanks...


----------



## Andrey V

designdog said:


> Tomorrow I will take delivery of a Mizuno blue steel honyaki 240 gyuto! The real thing!
> 
> I wonder if any of you have experience with honyaki and jnats. I do have a 210 Watanabe blue steel honyaki of questionable provenance. It is mono layer, it is Watanabe, it was expensive, but has no hamon. Sharpens like any other carbon knife.
> 
> And that is how I plan to approach the Mizuno - like any other carbon knife: Okabana Aoto, Hakka, Ohira Suita, Nakayama Kita.
> 
> Any thoughts? Thanks...



Hi, DD
I have sharpened and even repaired/reprofiled hardly damaged Honyaki knives. I use one Mizu-Honyaki Gyuto as well. As to me- no problems at all. Just more care. They can be ( and ofter they are) more brittle, that's all. IMHO[emoji41][emoji41]. 
But with the proper heat treat it works great. No side push, only straight cuts. 
Normally it gets it's force after some use. 
Normal carbon knife sharpening- sometimes a bit harder, but not significantly harder to sharpen. 
The final polishing - easygoing. 
Congrats[emoji120]&#127995;!


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Ok guys..
I promised feedback on the okudu suita I bought a while back.. I got the stone some time ago. Been kind of busy at late, so I have not had time to comment here on the forum. That, and that I have been in discussion with the seller..

Ok here goes, the stone feels great. Its smooth, compact and fast. Gives slurry fast. Not inky black, but more like a deep bluish/grey kind of black. It gives great edge. It feels toothy/sticky, but much sharper than the sticky edge a good aoto or aizu would leave. So good so far. The edges on the stone was a little more scruffy than I wish. If the story ended here I was a happy camper. But there is more..

A minute or two after I have had a knife on the stone the knife gets stains, patina like stains. It seems to give some kind of chemical reaction that causes the steel to form patina. I had one of my kiridashis on the stone, washed and dried the knife. Than there it was stains at the tip, and also on the ura (which was never on the stone itself).. I have about 15 jnats, but none of them gives a reaction like this..

I am in dialog with the seller. Have sent him pictures of the knives that have been on the stone. He have forwarded the pictures to his stone seller, and some carpenters. None of them have an explanation to what causes this.. 

Have any one here heard or seen anything like this?

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b454/geirwalbo/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-06/20150619_144335_zpsbsktpncv.jpg

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b454/geirwalbo/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-06/20150619_144255_zpspp5sjyps.jpg


----------



## Asteger

Very interesting. Me, no idea and I've never seen it with dozens and dozens of stones.

Hmm... How about the water you use? Tap water? Could you experiment with another water, like filtered or distilled? Is there maybe some PH thing happening? 

Also wondering if the stone might have have somehow become more basic/acidic in the past due to it being used/infused in a certain way?

At some point in the discussion, there might be a need for some rare person who has actual knowledge of geology and chemistry. None of us are that person, though, I think. :dontknow:


----------



## Andrey V

Hmmm.. Reg Ura- it should touch the stone as well, the part inside ura not, but you touch it with your fingers. 
Normally the rests of slurry/ mucrodust from sharpening protect from rust. Even if you leave your knife/tool for some time- no problem. It looks like you have some aggressive inclusions which dissolve in water while sharpening. Check the PH factor with PH tester tapes.


----------



## shownomarci

Bought a 'Binsui' last week. 
Really soft, makes quite a bit of slurry but i have to make it wet quite often because the water just runs through the stone. 
Nothing like any other sharpening stones i've had before.
Here it is:


----------



## XooMG

Not big into the natural stones except occasionally for razors, but I decided to order one of Maksim's lvl3 ai'iwatani koppa to do a little bevel polishing beyond my synthetic red aoto. Seems like a good value for the level of finish, if my intuition is correct.

Been using a baby hakka and it's alright...hoping the ai'iwatani can get me to a similar level or better of finish.


----------



## Asteger

shownomarci said:


> Bought a 'Binsui' last week. Really soft, makes quite a bit of slurry but i have to make it wet quite often because the water just runs through the stone.
> Nothing like any other sharpening stones i've had before.



Hi SNM, I've never had a really soft binsui (white Amakusa) like this, but yours looks quite good. Nice shape. 

I take it this photo is before you used it? Looks like it hasn't been smoothed on the top.

Hmm... My white Amakusa haven't dried out quickly like you've described, but the obvious cure is to lacquer the sides and bottom. Stones that dry fast dry far less fast this way. 

With a solid, non-layered stone like this, you don't need to lacquer. But if you are having trouble controlling the water, then there's good reason to.


----------



## vinster

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Ok guys..
> 
> A minute or two after I have had a knife on the stone the knife gets stains, patina like stains. It seems to give some kind of chemical reaction that causes the steel to form patina. I had one of my kiridashis on the stone, washed and dried the knife. Than there it was stains at the tip, and also on the ura (which was never on the stone itself).. I have about 15 jnats, but none of them gives a reaction like this..
> 
> I am in dialog with the seller. Have sent him pictures of the knives that have been on the stone. He have forwarded the pictures to his stone seller, and some carpenters. None of them have an explanation to what causes this..
> 
> Have any one here heard or seen anything like this?



I haven't seen or heard of this, but I do have a stone that has an unpleasant sulfur-ish smell. I usually enjoy my the smell from jnats, but this one stone in particular drives me nuts. It's an med-fine grit atago stone, nice yellow-green color, but the smell stops me from getting too acquainted with it. Funny thing -- this might be a great performing stone, but I might not ever know because I'm turned off to using it. 

Once you get past a baseline in performance, jnats are so subjective.


----------



## shownomarci

Asteger said:


> I take it this photo is before you used it? Looks like it hasn't been smoothed on the top.


I took a photo upside down intetionally to show how porous the stone is. (Didn't wash the slurry away from the top part, so the 'holes' wouldn't have been so visible.)
I've flattened the other side and rounded the edges with a flattening stone and it was really easy, that's why i said it was a soft stone.
I may be just exaggerating but compared to my Ohira and the Naniwa synths i have it seems quite soft and thirsty.
Anyway i bought it mainly for softer steel knives 'cause i wanted a decent sized stone in this grit range.


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Astger: the water used is the same as with other stones. Pretty sure that this is not the cause.

Andrey: I have not had the ura side of the knife on the okudu (as I use finer stones for this side).

I have also consider either one of your idea's, some sort of inclusion or infused with something "toxic" in some way..


But as it is the stone is useless for sharpening expensive knives as long as the result is as it is..
I will send a final mail to the seller, hoping he will make this one right. If not he is of my vendor list...

Will report back..

Thanks for your input guys


----------



## Andrey V

XooMG said:


> Not big into the natural stones except occasionally for razors, but I decided to order one of Maksim's lvl3 ai'iwatani koppa to do a little bevel polishing beyond my synthetic red aoto. Seems like a good value for the level of finish, if my intuition is correct.
> 
> Been using a baby hakka and it's alright...hoping the ai'iwatani can get me to a similar level or better of finish.



Much better, much better
Hakka is much softer then Aiiwa
So enjoy your new stone! [emoji41]


----------



## Bolek

Hello,
Is there any web site for beginers on Jants ?


----------



## Asteger

Bolek said:


> Hello, Is there any web site for beginers on Jants ?



Hi Bolek  I had to chuckle about your post and totally understand, as there isn't really an easy in-road. Sorry but, no, I don't know of any 1st stop website. I think the jnat thing, especially for knives, is quite small and there isn't scope. In English, for razors, it can be a bit better.

I assume you're a knife-head? Please post any questions if you have them.

However, as a rule of thumb, naturals are much more of a trial and error thing, and experience counts for a lot. If not, you need good recommendations. Not easy to buy stones in Japan, and much worse outside where of course things cost more and there is less choice. People end up buying from the same 1 or 2 sources, which can't be the best option.

You can take care of your knives solely with naturals, but people here would almost never approach it that way and so you'd be going against the common thinking in ways. It's not necessarily the correct way, but it's still good to get into it in ways others understand and can support you with.

In general, people here who use naturals go with synthetics for lower grits and a natural for finishing. Sometimes mediums are also used, and some people are happy to finish on mediums instead of finer stones too. 

As said, interested to hear any questions. No one here is a Japanese expert, but it's fun to consider questions and discuss.


----------



## Bolek

Asteger said:


> Hi Bolek  I had to chuckle about your post and totally understand, as there isn't really an easy in-road. Sorry but, no, I don't know of any 1st stop website. I think the jnat thing, especially for knives, is quite small and there isn't scope. In English, for razors, it can be a bit better.
> 
> I assume you're a knife-head? Please post any questions if you have them.
> 
> However, as a rule of thumb, naturals are much more of a trial and error thing, and experience counts for a lot. If not, you need good recommendations. Not easy to buy stones in Japan, and much worse outside where of course things cost more and there is less choice. People end up buying from the same 1 or 2 sources, which can't be the best option.
> 
> You can take care of your knives solely with naturals, but people here would almost never approach it that way and so you'd be going against the common thinking in ways. It's not necessarily the correct way, but it's still good to get into it in ways others understand and can support you with.
> 
> In general, people here who use naturals go with synthetics for lower grits and a natural for finishing. Sometimes mediums are also used, and some people are happy to finish on mediums instead of finer stones too.
> 
> As said, interested to hear any questions. No one here is a Japanese expert, but it's fun to consider questions and discuss.


Hello,
Up to now I sharppen with a mix of wetstoes and Spyderco ceramics (not apreciated at KKF). I have seen some jants on BST and it get my interest as finisher and for sigle bevels. It havent work out as I hesitate too much. So I just bought in France a Nakayama of very irregular shape and a nice looking Atago suita (plus Belgian and Hard Arkansas stones).
As a beginer there is only one clear point to me : the mane made stones are so good that only exceptional natural stones worth buying.


----------



## designdog

Bolek said:


> Hello,
> Up to now I sharppen with a mix of wetstoes and Spyderco ceramics (not apreciated at KKF). I have seen some jants on BST and it get my interest as finisher and for sigle bevels. It havent work out as I hesitate too much. So I just bought in France a Nakayama of very irregular shape and a nice looking Atago suita (plus Belgian and Hard Arkansas stones).
> As a beginer there is only one clear point to me : the mane made stones are so good that only exceptional natural stones worth buying.



Bolek,

If your goal is simply to get the sharpest edge in the least time, good synthetic stones are your best bet. I am partial to those sold by Jon at JKI, and Maxsim, at JNI. If you start pouring your money into anything else you may regret it.

However, if, as many on this little thread concur, your goal is to get the sharpest edge in the most pleasurable experience, with the added benefit of Kasumi finishing, jnats are the way to go. And, as Asteger correctly stated, a combination of both - synthetic for the lower grits, jnats for the higher, is the best of both worlds.

True, jnats can be expensive. However, they seemingly last forever, do not dish, and do not require soaking. If I were starting over, I would reccomend the 800 and synthetic red aoto here, or the Gesshin 400 and 2K from JKI, and a really nice natural from Maxsim. If you send him an email with a list of your stones and knives, he will make a good recommendation for you. Down the road you can add a higher polish jnat if you like...


----------



## Bolek

designdog said:


> Bolek,
> 
> If you start pouring your money into anything else you may regret it.
> 
> And, as Asteger correctly stated, a combination of both - synthetic for the lower grits, jnats for the higher, is the best of both worlds.
> 
> True, jnats can be expensive. However, they seemingly last forever, do not dish, and do not require soaking. If I were starting over, I would reccomend the 800 and synthetic red aoto here, or the Gesshin 400 and 2K from JKI, and a really nice natural from Maxsim. If you send him an email with a list of your stones and knives, he will make a good recommendation for you. Down the road you can add a higher polish jnat if you like...


Too late


----------



## berko

what did you buy?


----------



## Bolek

berko said:


> what did you buy?


See post #1032 :I just bought in France a Nakayama of very irregular shape and a nice looking Atago suita (plus Belgian and Hard Arkansas stones).


----------



## Asteger

Hey, Bolek. These sound like they could all be good. Take time to get to know them.


----------



## Bolek

Thanks.
I expect reciving them in 2 days.
Is it mandatory to lacker Jants ?


----------



## Asteger

Bolek said:


> Is it mandatory to lacker Jants ?



No. There are lots of different types, and solid mediums which will be cut large don't need it. Less dense stones, thin stones, and layered stones need it more. It's not really hard to suss it out when you handle them, though.

Lacquering stabilises the stone so it won't bread or chip easily. Dry stones won't dry so fast. Sealed stones can often also look better depending, and might be easier to stack and store.


----------



## Bolek

Recived them. Looks great. I like the touch of thumbs on both Jants. I'll test them back from hollidays.
If my understanding is correct the Nagura is not mandatory each time and they are hard enough for hard steel.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

Hi to all! I'm a long time lurker on this thread (one of my favorites), but never posted as i think my knowledge is rather small compared to most here. On the other hand, Bolek's comment on why using jnats (perfectly good question) made me think about it, and at least for me, one extra bonus of jnats is that you have more time (checking the bevel and so forth) before you take too much steel. At least for me, sometimes, with synths, i go overboard and when i realize the burr is bigger than it could be, the bevel is wider than it should be. If your priority is not sharpening fast and you want to preserve your knife as much as possible, jnats are a very good option.


----------



## Asteger

Bom dia, Marcelo. You have several jnats (I know) and, while no expert (no one is here), I'd say that still easily qualifies you to know more than most!


----------



## Asteger

... Right, it has been quietish here for a few months. I had time to tidy up the 'stone room' today and wound up with most of my stones together on one table (which I dearly hope will never collapse). I'm not about to list all of them, but for fun here's a look:






Aside from most of my finer stones being in the foreground, no, they're not in any particular order. Not shown are smaller nagura and several other stones that were in the kitchen drying, awaiting some lacquer, and so on. I've got _way_ more stones than knives and so might try to balance this out a bit in the future. However, while I tend to prefer using just a few favourite knives, I look forward to using a variety of stones, and it's not a big deal doing this and sharpening knives more than you really should because, of course, these nats won't wear down blades nearly as much as synths would.


----------



## perneto

Bolek said:


> See post #1032 :I just bought in France a Nakayama of very irregular shape and a nice looking Atago suita (plus Belgian and Hard Arkansas stones).



Where in France?


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> ... Right, it has been quietish here for a few months. I had time to tidy up the 'stone room' today and wound up with most of my stones together on one table (which I dearly hope will never collapse). I'm not about to list all of them, but for fun here's a look:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aside from most of my finer stones being in the foreground, no, they're not in any particular order. Not shown are smaller nagura and several other stones that were in the kitchen drying, awaiting some lacquer, and so on. I've got _way_ more stones than knives and so might try to balance this out a bit in the future. However, while I tend to prefer using just a few favourite knives, I look forward to using a variety of stones, and it's not a big deal doing this and sharpening knives more than you really should because, of course, these nats won't wear down blades nearly as much as synths would.



2 in the background on the right side would perfectly match my collection [emoji41][emoji41][emoji12][emoji12][emoji12]
You know what i mean[emoji317][emoji317][emoji106]&#127995;


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> 2 in the background on the right side would perfectly match my collection [emoji41][emoji41][emoji12][emoji12][emoji12]
> You know what i mean[emoji317][emoji317][emoji106]&#55356;&#57339;



You have a good memory, AV. Problem is, the 2 in the background on the right side also perfectly may my collection too. However, I'll let you know if I suddenly become unemployed and have a blow-out sale. :2cents:


----------



## chinacats

For those of us not quite up to speed; what two stones are you referencing?

BTW, looks like quite the gathering


----------



## Asteger

chinacats said:


> For those of us not quite up to speed; what two stones are you referencing? BTW, looks like quite the gathering



The orange one is a Natsuya (actually, there are 2 in the photo) and the blue-red one is a very large Kaisei.


----------



## panda

i pulled out my own natsuya today, gave out a weird smell i guess from not being used in a while. it was as smooth as i remembered using it the last time (for a coarse/med stone)


----------



## Asteger

panda said:


> i pulled out my own natsuya today, gave out a weird smell i guess from not being used in a while. it was as smooth as i remembered using it the last time (for a coarse/med stone)



Smooth, definitely. Don't know about the smell - haven't experienced that from a Natsuya, though def with others.

Another good use for Natsuya is the slurry which is very good for polishing. I've made some powder out of a broken stone which is very easy to use. Nice hazier kasumi and it breaks down over quite a range and so goes from coarser to finer.


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Great collection Astger&#128521; I prey for your need of fast cash&#128559; sure woul like to help in thining that collection&#128522;


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> You have a good memory, AV. Problem is, the 2 in the background on the right side also perfectly may my collection too. However, I'll let you know if I suddenly become unemployed and have a blow-out sale. :2cents:



A good eye as well 
These Kaisei and Natsuya worth waiting..


----------



## Andrey V

panda said:


> i pulled out my own natsuya today, gave out a weird smell i guess from not being used in a while. it was as smooth as i remembered using it the last time (for a coarse/med stone)



The revenge of the stone..[emoji12]
It becomes jealous when you use another stones[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]


----------



## Asteger

chinacats said:


> BTW, looks like quite the gathering





Dazedandkasumi said:


> Great collection Astger&#128521;



Thanks, fellows



Andrey V said:


> The revenge of the stone..[emoji12] It becomes jealous when you use another stones[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]



Exactly! And shame on you, Panda. What exactly was this other stone, some kind of cheap synth!? People these days :sad0:


----------



## jklip13

Some of my favorite stones



From left to right Okudo Suita, Koma Nagura, Ikenouchi Tomae, Ozuku Suita and Uchigumori


----------



## Asteger

jklip13 said:


> Some of my favorite stones ... left to right Okudo Suita, Koma Nagura, Ikenouchi Tomae, Ozuku Suita and Uchigumori



Very nice. Do you use them all for knives? How do you use the koma?

As a side point and suggestion, it would have been fun to guess at what these were before revealing. I didn't notice your listings right away and was already guessing: Shinden probably, some kind of nagura, some kind of tomae, Ohira suita and ... the uchigumori looks kind of reddish here, and would have been most challenging. Out of 5 I think I would deserve a couple points.

Okay then, here's an example which I don't think posted anywhere before and which think won't be easy at all, as it's an unusual example and one of my fav stones. Here it is, and what do you think?


----------



## panda

black pepper havarti


----------



## Asteger

panda said:


> black pepper havarti



Wouldn't that be nice. If you could see it in person, you'd agree: poppyseed ice cream brick


----------



## vinster

Tajima?? You probably would pick something more obscure though...




Asteger said:


> Very nice. Do you use them all for knives? How do you use the koma?
> 
> As a side point and suggestion, it would have been fun to guess at what these were before revealing. I didn't notice your listings right away and was already guessing: Shinden probably, some kind of nagura, some kind of tomae, Ohira suita and ... the uchigumori looks kind of reddish here, and would have been most challenging. Out of 5 I think I would deserve a couple points.
> 
> Okay then, here's an example which I don't think posted anywhere before and which think won't be easy at all, as it's an unusual example and one of my fav stones. Here it is, and what do you think?


----------



## jklip13

I use them all for knives, razors and the odd mandoline blade or kogatana,
The Koma I'm currently building a stand for because it has a very uneven bottom so I haven't had the chance to use it that much
For your stone my best guess would be some type of Binsui


Asteger said:


> Very nice. Do you use them all for knives? How do you use the koma?
> 
> As a side point and suggestion, it would have been fun to guess at what these were before revealing. I didn't notice your listings right away and was already guessing: Shinden probably, some kind of nagura, some kind of tomae, Ohira suita and ... the uchigumori looks kind of reddish here, and would have been most challenging. Out of 5 I think I would deserve a couple points.
> 
> Okay then, here's an example which I don't think posted anywhere before and which think won't be easy at all, as it's an unusual example and one of my fav stones. Here it is, and what do you think?


----------



## Asteger

vinster said:


> Tajima?? You probably would pick something more obscure though...





jklip13 said:


> For your stone my best guess would be some type of Binsui



Bingo Vinster! Not surprised, of the members here, you'd get it. This has to be a very unusual Tajima, and I paid more for it than others with the usual grey/pepper appearance. I had a nice but narrower one before, but sold it when I found this; very hard, hard dense stone, that won't give slurry unless you nagura it, and even Atoma takes ages to have an impact on. However, it's an excellent feeling base with slurry, when you want that harder feel and control. I figure it's a rare one, with its sort of vanilla poppyseed look which I haven't seen, and so am proud of it. Jklip, no, not a 'binsui' class stone, but could be as the fineness is fairly similar. And Vinster, I don't think Tajima are common at all. Still, I wouldn't play the guessing game with something really obscure, because no one would get it. Anyway, here's my prior Tajima formerly on BST:


----------



## Asteger

Okay, just to keep the game going, this one should be a cinch. Identify the stone:


----------



## Bolek

perneto said:


> Where in France?


I hope that putting link here is OK. If it is forbiden please moderaor delat it :

http://lapassiondescouteaux.fr/pierres-a-affuter-naturelles/96-pierre-nakayama-japon.html
http://lapassiondescouteaux.fr/pier...-pierre-naturelle-japonaise-atago-karasu.html


----------



## jklip13

Asteger said:


> Okay, just to keep the game going, this one should be a cinch. Identify the stone:



looks like a classic Amakusa to me


----------



## vinster

Looks like Ziricote to me. :biggrin:



Asteger said:


> Okay, just to keep the game going, this one should be a cinch. Identify the stone:


----------



## Asteger

vinster said:


> Looks like Ziricote to me. :biggrin:



Careful, Vinster. You might be giving extra encouragement to these custom handle types, though it is similar.



jklip13 said:


> looks like a classic Amakusa to me



Absolutely. Called 'red' Amakusa, I think.


----------



## jklip13

On the topic of Amakusa, my chef was telling me last week about a 3 foot tall chicken that originates from Amakusa that is prized for its meat quality. It's name is Amakusa Daio
here's a picture
http://gurutabi.gnavi.co.jp/en/i/i_2767/


----------



## Cashn

My humble collection.

Right left to right it is an Omura, Blue Aoto, Monzento, Hideryiama, and some unknown stone I bought off of BST from here before I really knew much of anything about jnats. Apparently it's from Shobudani mine and was sold as a midori uchigamori but after some research find that not very probably. Its a fairly fine and hard finisher from what I can tell. If anyone would like to maybe help me identify it a bit more I'd be glad to take some better pics hehe. Bought the Hideryiama after figuring out that I don't really know what the unknown stone was to use as a finisher. The Monzento came shortly after that. Was wanting to try a blue Aoto to possibly replace the Monzento. Monzento works very well but is very thirsty and has some annoying inclusions that I am constantly working on digging out. Right before Maksim went out of town 2 aoto's got listed and I snapped one of them up along with an Omura to try bevel setting on. Was previously using a shapton glass 500. Only had the chance to use each of them once so far but the Aoto is exactly what I'm looking for I think. Little bit finer and slightly harder than the Monzento. Not sure about the Omura yet, didn't really need to reset a bevel but used it anyways. Im still trying to figure out the Hideryiama, i'm just not sure if I'm not using it long enough to reach its potential or if I have reached its potential for a refined edge. I can get hair popping edges off of it but not quite push cutting news print. All of them came from Maksim besides the one unknown stone.


----------



## Asteger

Cashn said:


> My humble collection.
> 
> Right left to right it is an Omura, Blue Aoto, Monzento, Hideryiama, and some unknown stone I bought off of BST from here before I really knew much of anything about jnats. Apparently it's from Shobudani mine and was sold as a midori uchigamori but after some research find that not very probably. Its a fairly fine and hard finisher from what I can tell. If anyone would like to maybe help me identify it a bit more I'd be glad to take some better pics hehe. Bought the Hideryiama after figuring out that I don't really know what the unknown stone was to use as a finisher. The Monzento came shortly after that. Was wanting to try a blue Aoto to possibly replace the Monzento. Monzento works very well but is very thirsty and has some annoying inclusions that I am constantly working on digging out. Right before Maksim went out of town 2 aoto's got listed and I snapped one of them up along with an Omura to try bevel setting on. Was previously using a shapton glass 500. Only had the chance to use each of them once so far but the Aoto is exactly what I'm looking for I think. Little bit finer and slightly harder than the Monzento. Not sure about the Omura yet, didn't really need to reset a bevel but used it anyways. Im still trying to figure out the Hideryiama, i'm just not sure if I'm not using it long enough to reach its potential or if I have reached its potential for a refined edge. I can get hair popping edges off of it but not quite push cutting news print. All of them came from Maksim besides the one unknown stone.



You've got a nice range. Many people just aim for finishers, which are the priciest stones and (in my opinion, therefore) receive more promotion from the sellers. However, you can go from coarse to fine, left to right more or less, with the ao and monzen overlapping a bit.

Omura (I assume this is actually a Wakayama stone, not traditional Omura) - I've owned 3 and they do the job, but feel so different to synths. Yours is 'silver' and there are also 'red' and 'yellow' too. 

Monzen - doesn't sound so good, bad luck, but good not to be afraid of dealing with hard lines like you do 

Hideriyama - no, it isn't the finest stone, but should be between your aoto/monzento and the smaller stone you have

The 'shobudani' - looks like it could be one of the small dark hard ones meant for razors


----------



## Cashn

Luckily the Monzento was picked up second hand from here for almost half off what it was bought for at JNS. Not a bad stone by any means but just needs a little love to make sure you don't get a grit of sand in your slurry, luckily it's so soft it is very easy to tell what needs to be dug out. Any recommendations as to a stone to look out for to follow the Hideryiama? Not really looking to collect right now, just a solid set up I can use and maybe branch out with from there. I really don't need anything past the Hideryiama but finding that "show off" edge is a draw for me hehe. The "Shobudani" does seem to be one of those razor stones just based on pictures, descriptions and water absorption rate. If the Hideryiama is a 2.5 according to Maksim the Shobudani is easily 3.5+ I believe. Not that I have a lot of stones to compare to but it takes a good while longer for a drop of water to be sucked into the Shobudani than the Hideryiama.


----------



## Asteger

Cashn said:


> Any recommendations as to a stone to look out for to follow the Hideryiama? Not really looking to collect right now, just a solid set up I can use and maybe branch out with from there. I really don't need anything past the Hideryiama but finding that "show off" edge is a draw for me hehe.



For that kind of question, you might consult Mr Awasedo himself, AV Andrey. Or better, look back in the thread not long ago to exchanges involving AV and Designdog, who like you also has a thing for that showcase edge.

Hideri are not that fine, but are considered awasedo for knives, as in you don't need to go any finer than where you are, and for me I agree with our superiors over in Japan on this point. Or in my case, finer medium stones like Aizu are perfectly fine to finish on for gyuto, unless one hopes to make another ridiculous transparent tomato slicing video. 

However, a much more economical suggestion would be to use what you have, and maybe get a 2 or 3-stone Asano set, or a Tsushima nagura or JNS's so-called 'tomonagura' and then use the slurry on the smaller hard/fine stone you currently have. It seems with experience harder stones become preferable to softer for most things, and if the hardness is okay for you then you don't need to buy a new regular-sized stone that'll also give you slurry if you've already got a decent base and a way of generating slurry. If not a small nagura for this, you can even just use a diamond plate.

Oh, and beware with your Hideri as they tend to have hard sandy particles that'll interrupt the otherwise fine slurry you've built up. Not easy to control, and a finer stone after won't erase the damage.


----------



## Cashn

Thank you, I should play around with the unknown stone more, just kind of frustrating when I'm not exactly sure what it is, how it should be used best, and can't even give a good descriptions to get some of those answers hehe. I've got the JNS tomo nagura and some other unknown small slurry stones I can play around with. I can also get some decent slurry from the stone if I act like I am thinning the blade on the stone for a little bit. I just don't need to sharpen that often so it's kind of tricky to get a "best way" to do things in a small amount of time. I bought a Zakuri just to practice thinning and sharpening but one thing I did not foresee is that I want to use it more than I sharpen it to see if I like the edge or slight thinning I have done to it hehe. I have noticed that with the Hideryiama when I first got it, thank you for the tip. Was not sure if it was from the stone or maybe some carry over from the Monzento. Seems like the sand may comes from the little holes (su ?) in the stone? Not sure if that term applies here or is just imperfections in the stone.


----------



## Asteger

Not a big deal, really. Fine stones are often of unknown origin and it's not a problem if they work of course. Though the way stones are marketed, sold and discussed will often give an impression that origin's important, it's not usually super helpful in imagining how a stone will perform, at least with layered finishers (gotogi). I'd bet if you could somehow do blind sharpening tests using different gotogi that knowledgeable types claim to know, it'd prove they had big difficulties identifying which is which. (Origin is more reliable with non-gotogi, I think. For example, an Ikarashi is an Ikarashi and you know what you'll get.)

Hideriyama can work fine, but they just tend to have those hard silica-type particles mixed in, which most people won't want. It's not a prestige mine, not one of the classic ones, and is a bit of distance from where the classics used to be sourced.


----------



## Dardeau

So I made peace with the edges off of my Ohira suita today and last night. 

With the first knife I used it with when I got it (masamoto ks yanagiba) I was able to put a very nice finish on the blade. Everything since then has been a little uneven. I've never had this problem with softer stones. Any recommendations?


----------



## Andrey V

Hi, boys, i'm back as well [emoji41][emoji41]. Asteger- i know that type of Tajima and Amakusa. 
I don't have a Tajima, but tried it. Not my taste, though hard. An Amakusa ( often called Red or Rainbow Amakusa) is a very funny stone. Being almost the coarsest one the job it does is good. Actually- the best result calculated for cm3 of stone ever- the cheapest one- and it still works!![emoji41][emoji41][emoji12] 
I had 3 in this color, have reserved only 1 for me- the rest used as gifts for my friends [emoji41].


----------



## Andrey V

Dardeau said:


> So I made peace with the edges off of my Ohira suita today and last night.
> 
> With the first knife I used it with when I got it (masamoto ks yanagiba) I was able to put a very nice finish on the blade. Everything since then has been a little uneven. I've never had this problem with softer stones. Any recommendations?



You mean the uneven finish on the blade? 
If yes- it's easy to understand: softer stones give more mud, it stays between the stone and the blade, so you have the abrasive slurry touching the blade almost always while sharpening. 
Stones like Ohira Suita and up are " not forgiving", it means you need much better control over the blade. The result- the much higher polish, much sharper blade ( the " microserrator" is finer), and the retention is better. 
So check your sharpening techniques- pay more attention. 
And yes, i had it on single beveled knives. As i say- it's clearly a sharpening technique.


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> Asteger- i know that type of Tajima and Amakusa. I don't have a Tajima, but tried it. Not my taste, though hard. An Amakusa ( often called Red or Rainbow Amakusa) is a very funny stone. Being almost the coarsest one the job it does is good. Actually- the best result calculated for cm3 of stone ever- the cheapest one- and it still works I had 3 in this color, have reserved only 1 for me- the rest used as gifts for my friends [emoji41].



We've both written about Amakusa here before, so no need to repeat the same. But I don't think 'funny' is quite the right word for Amakusa, the aka (red) kind as you said. 'Unpredictable' is more like it. All that layering (not in a sendimentary, awasedo sense) with reddish-brownish colours: iron content and inconsistent hardness. However, as you were saying, when you have a good one they work well.
My Tajima - I still think it's a rare one and very nice. :cheffry: I don't think you've tried one like it.  Too bad we all live 1000s of kms away from each other and comparisions are only done via words.


----------



## Asteger

Dardeau said:


> So I made peace with the edges off of my Ohira suita today and last night. With the first knife I used it with when I got it (masamoto ks yanagiba) I was able to put a very nice finish on the blade. Everything since then has been a little uneven. I've never had this problem with softer stones. Any recommendations?





Andrey V said:


> You mean the uneven finish on the blade? If yes- it's easy to understand: softer stones give more mud, it stays between the stone and the blade, so you have the abrasive slurry touching the blade almost always while sharpening. Stones like Ohira Suita and up are " not forgiving", it means you need much better control over the blade. The result- the much higher polish, much sharper blade ( the " microserrator" is finer), and the retention is better. So check your sharpening techniques- pay more attention. And yes, i had it on single beveled knives. As i say- it's clearly a sharpening technique.



I'm not 100% sure what everyone meant above. Dardeau, you mentioned 'a nice edge' and then other things being 'uneven' - do you mean nice/uneven edges or nice/uneven polish/finish? If you mean getting an even finish/polish/kasumi look towards the edge, and you got that before with softer stones but not with your suita, then what AV said must be the case, as softer stones are much easier to get nice finishes from due to the generous slurry contact. Definitely, if you're using harder and finer stones, you need greater control and it's best to aim closer to the edge and hope to get nice hagane-jigane contrast.

The other point is that a nice long 1-bevel yanagiba is nice to sharpen on. The curves are more gradual and you don't get so many narrow contact points against the stone, like you would with smaller blades which are just going to be less flat and not afford flat contact areas much at all. Maybe you're comparing the yanagiba to blades that are shorter and more curved and difficult to do a job on?


----------



## Dardeau

AV nailed it. The edge is great, has good retention. I wouldn't like it as a gyuto edge, but for a usuba and probably yanagiba it is perfect. I'm just looking for tips to improve the kasumi finish.


----------



## Asteger

Dardeau said:


> AV nailed it. The edge is great, has good retention. I wouldn't like it as a gyuto edge, but for a usuba and probably yanagiba it is perfect.



Me too. Not too useful to me either, making gyuto razor sharp.


----------



## vinster

Dardeau said:


> AV nailed it. The edge is great, has good retention. I wouldn't like it as a gyuto edge, but for a usuba and probably yanagiba it is perfect. I'm just looking for tips to improve the kasumi finish.



Ahh. The bane of my existence. To get a smooth, even finish, you need a softer stone. Harder stones will leave "streaks" or brighter areas. The blade road isn't flat, nor should it be, so "polishing" is a futile exercise in exerting very light pressure evenly down the whole length of the blade. 

I do a couple things for a nice finish:

1) use a softer stone for polishing the blade road before you put the edge against a fine finisher. For a nice appearance, I spend time on a hakka, softer ohira, or a shobu stone that I have. It makes a very nice hazy finish, with contrast between the higane and jigane. Then I finish on a harder/finer stone, trying to be extra careful to stay very close to the edge. One mistake though and you often have to start back at the mid-grit stage.

2) use finger stones after you finish with the edge to your satisfaction. This option is infinitely easier, but I'm still nervous about running my finger up and down so close to the edge of the knife.


----------



## Dardeau

I don't know if I care enough to go for finger stones. I'd like to keep an extra stone out of the line up. Maybe I'll just keep the red aoto finish and do the edge with the Ohira


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> My Tajima - I still think it's a rare one and very nice. :cheffry: I don't think you've tried one like it.  Too bad we all live 1000s of kms away from each other and comparisions are only done via words.


Good words[emoji41].. 
Yep. Sitting across the street would eliminate the necessity to communicate via blogs. 
And sure, every stone is different- I'm glad you have yours! [emoji485][emoji485][emoji120]&#127995;
Actually- when the stone is consistent, doesn't matter which " grit" it has, you can always find for it the right place in your progression


----------



## Andrey V

vinster said:


> Ahh. The bane of my existence. To get a smooth, even finish, you need a softer stone. Harder stones will leave "streaks" or brighter areas. The blade road isn't flat, nor should it be, so "polishing" is a futile exercise in exerting very light pressure evenly down the whole length of the blade.
> 
> I do a couple things for a nice finish:
> 
> 1) use a softer stone for polishing the blade road before you put the edge against a fine finisher. For a nice appearance, I spend time on a hakka, softer ohira, or a shobu stone that I have. It makes a very nice hazy finish, with contrast between the higane and jigane. Then I finish on a harder/finer stone, trying to be extra careful to stay very close to the edge. One mistake though and you often have to start back at the mid-grit stage.
> 
> 2) use finger stones after you finish with the edge to your satisfaction. This option is infinitely easier, but I'm still nervous about running my finger up and down so close to the edge of the knife.



Hi, Vinster
Using the fingerstones a lot i have a trick to save the fingers from cutting them off [emoji12][emoji12][emoji41]: i use a wooden tool ( a kinda stick) i cut/ profiled of a Ho wood ( any dense wood). Flat end, like a pen, a bit angled, not to see on pictures, i have some, use to polish the very edge. You hold a very small piece of fingerstone ( really 3 mm stone) with the flat end of this stick and polish- no risk, wise decision [emoji41][emoji41]! 
And YES, to achieve the even cloudy finish the Hakka-ish stones are very useful- a lot of soft mud sitting everywhere between the stone and the blade. 
Reg the edge quality: everybody is free to choose his desired level of sharpness, but generally speaking all the single beveled knives cut much better( thinner) with a better higher polished edge. Having nice flat surface it's great to have s nice contrast between steels. Btw- classical Uchigomori ( Ohira) are quite soft, so about a mid-range, that's why they leave a cloudy finish easily. 
Harder Nakayama fingerstones are very good for higher steels in great heat- treat. 
Anyway- it's not a big practical purpose of using it- it's a great way to please your eyes with the achieved beauty..
And not to forget that great blacksmiths make not flat bevels- polishing Hamaguriba on a flat stone is another story [emoji41].


----------



## Andrey V

Dardeau said:


> I don't know if I care enough to go for finger stones. I'd like to keep an extra stone out of the line up. Maybe I'll just keep the red aoto finish and do the edge with the Ohira



As posted above- it's about the control. 
I would say : make the edge and enjoy it- need the cloudy finish- just go across the surface with fingerstones. 
But only on single bevels. No need on any double beveled knife- just because you refine the edge, you don't touch the " cheeks "


----------



## Asteger

vinster said:


> I do a couple things for a nice finish:
> 
> 1) use a softer stone for polishing the blade road before you put the edge against a fine finisher. For a nice appearance, I spend time on a hakka, softer ohira, or a shobu stone that I have. It makes a very nice hazy finish, with contrast between the higane and jigane. Then I finish on a harder/finer stone, trying to be extra careful to stay very close to the edge. One mistake though and you often have to start back at the mid-grit stage.
> 
> 2) use finger stones after you finish with the edge to your satisfaction. This option is infinitely easier, but I'm still nervous about running my finger up and down so close to the edge of the knife.



To be honest, at most times my knives look used, don't have a beautiful finish and show patina. Trouble is in ways nice polishes transform as soon as you use the knife, unless you constant wipe and scrub, and I'm usually pretty practical in using knive. That said, it's nice to dress up your knives when you have a bit of free time, and if you don't mess with your stones and gear often then your techniques can slide.

My techniques exactly, Vinster. However, I don't fret much about using my fingers and have never had a slip up, and in fact I tend to use worn out sandpaper or a cloth most often of all. Really, though, if you care about your finish, even though people try hard to get these wonderful finishers, in the end you need to use fingerstones. I only do it sometimes.


----------



## vinster

Asteger said:


> To be honest, at most times my knives look used, don't have a beautiful finish and show patina. Trouble is in ways nice polishes transform as soon as you use the knife, unless you constant wipe and scrub, and I'm usually pretty practical in using knive. That said, it's nice to dress up your knives when you have a bit of free time, and if you don't mess with your stones and gear often then your techniques can slide.
> 
> My techniques exactly, Vinster. However, I don't fret much about using my fingers and have never had a slip up, and in fact I tend to use worn out sandpaper or a cloth most often of all. Really, though, if you care about your finish, even though people try hard to get these wonderful finishers, in the end you need to use fingerstones. I only do it sometimes.



On a gyuto, the nice finish doesn't last long (because of patina), but on my yanagi, I don't really get much of a patina at all. Naturally, I spend more time on the finish of a yanagi over most gyuto... the exception being those darned kitaeji/cloudy shig beauts.


----------



## Andrey V

vinster said:


> On a gyuto, the nice finish doesn't last long (because of patina), but on my yanagi, I don't really get much of a patina at all. Naturally, I spend more time on the finish of a yanagi over most gyuto... the exception being those darned kitaeji/cloudy shig beauts.



Generally speaking, Vinster, all my single bevels are in better /nicer condition then my double bevels. 
Especially if you talk about Gyutos, they are more often on duty . 
The singles show their nice contrast- it looks so nice , so i tend to finish them in a proper way [emoji41][emoji41]. 
Gyutos/petties etc are just workhorse - cutters, so i use great finishing stones to achieve the ultimate edge, all for cut. 
Fingerstones are great for wide single beveled knives- they do exactly what you expect from them.[

ATTACH]28418[/ATTACH]
I posted these pictures before: just to show the difference on same knife- fingerstones vs high grit polishing powder.
Though this time it's Shigefusa Petty double bevel..


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Hi Ger&#9786;
Sorrt to bother you.
As you are the most knowledgable person I know regarding med jnats I hope you can help me&#128522;
I have a offer on a tajima. The size is aprox 200x75x30. Im a bit sceptical to the stone from the pictures he sendt me. He is asking $140 for it (disciunt becase of a large chip)..
It looks rough to me. Im leaning to let it go, but want to heat your opinion as I know you have delt with several tajimas..
Looking forward to haer your opinion&#128521;


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Hi Ger&#9786;
> Sorrt to bother you.
> As you are the most knowledgable person I know regarding med jnats I hope you can help me&#128522;
> I have a offer on a tajima. The size is aprox 200x75x30. Im a bit sceptical to the stone from the pictures he sendt me. He is asking $140 for it (disciunt becase of a large chip)..
> It looks rough to me. Im leaning to let it go, but want to heat your opinion as I know you have delt with several tajimas..
> Looking forward to haer your opinion&#128521;



I was a bit drunk yesterday when I wrote the post&#128512;
Im in Panama City on travel. I have trouble uploading picks from my phone at the moment. If you want to see the pictures I can send them in a mail if you pm me your mail adress. 
Ill probably pas on the stone anyway, so its not a big deal.

Geir


----------



## Asteger

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Hi Ger&#9786; I have a offer on a tajima. The size is aprox 200x75x30. Im a bit sceptical to the stone from the pictures he sendt me. He is asking $140 for it (disciunt becase of a large chip).. It looks rough to me. Im leaning to let it go, but want to heat your opinion as I know you have delt with several tajimas.. Looking forward to haer your opinion&#55357;&#56841;



Hi Geir - Drunk in Panama? Sounds intriguing. The Tajima size is nice, although not the thickest. Maybe the minimum thickness in this case. $140 isn't high maybe. However, what about the chip? Yeah, will PM you about photos. Sorry, as you might have PMd me originally but my PM box was full. I'm a fan of a bigger Tashima I have, but would like to remember it and try it out again before I write more.



Andrey V said:


> [View attachment 28419



Both photos look good, but def the kasumi is far better


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Drinking is always is intriguing. Especial on travels&#128513;
You where right on the full inbox. Ill send you the photos.
Im almost sure Ill let it go. But as tajimas are kind of rare, you might be interested to have a look?
I might have a lead on a nother one at the moment. 
Your writing peeked my interest&#128521;

Geir



Asteger said:


> Hi Geir - Drunk in Panama? Sounds intriguing. The Tajima size is nice, although not the thickest. Maybe the minimum thickness in this case. $140 isn't high maybe. However, what about the chip? Yeah, will PM you about photos. Sorry, as you might have PMd me originally but my PM box was full. I'm a fan of a bigger Tashima I have, but would like to remember it and try it out again before I write more.
> 
> 
> 
> Both photos look good, but def the kasumi is far better


----------



## Andrey V

Dazedandkasumi said:


> Drinking is always is intriguing. Especial on travels[emoji16]
> You where right on the full inbox. Ill send you the photos.
> Im almost sure Ill let it go. But as tajimas are kind of rare, you might be interested to have a look?
> I might have a lead on a nother one at the moment.
> Your writing peeked my interest[emoji6]
> 
> Geir



[emoji482][emoji482][emoji485][emoji485][emoji482][emoji482][emoji485][emoji485][emoji485]
Not drunk in Italy, just a bottle of Ca del Bosco . I love it. ., 
Enjoy your lovely trip in Panama 
If Tajima looks good- try it. 140$ is not a big deal, just a good meal with nice bottle of wine or couple of 
Without pictures is hard to judge- but anyway- wanna try- why not? Share then 
Cheers [emoji485]


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> [emoji482][emoji482][emoji485][emoji485][emoji482][emoji482][emoji485][emoji485][emoji485]
> Not drunk in Italy, just a bottle of Ca del Bosco . I love it. ., Enjoy your lovely trip [emoji485]



There's Andrey enjoying himself again, and in Italy again. :eek2: Me, I had a sandwich for lunch yesterday, but tried to get a little closer to Andrey with a riesling jahrgangsekt once home. :dontknow:


----------



## Asteger

About Tashima: Dazed asked about these, and I haven't used mine lately and so won't say too much more now. The same goes with another stone I have, as my memory of it needs a little refreshing. It's a Ueno (no connection to the area in Tokyo), but I thought of it because I remember it being quite similar to Tashima, not just in appearance. They're both mid-range mediums, not too coarse or fine, but I think the 2 densest stones I have. Denser than Aizu or Iyo, for example, and Atoma-frightening hard. Anyway, it being the weekend, I had a moment and took some photos which I'll post here as I don't think anyone knows of Ueno mediums. Another pretty rare one, I think.

My photos are maybe a bit overexposed, but the Ueno like normal Tashima are mostly light grey with black specks, although my Ueno has more of an olive hue to it too. The bottom looks like it's been seasoned heavily with black pepper. (Goma pattern, if you use J-lingo.)

Top:




Bottom:


----------



## Asteger

Oh boy, blame my boozy lunch... Please note in all of the above it should be 'Tajima' not Tashima &#128533;


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Oh boy, blame my boozy lunch... Please note in all of the above it should be 'Tajima' not Tashima [emoji53]



All thanks to Riesling[emoji485][emoji485][emoji41][emoji120]&#127995;!!


----------



## banjo1071

Hi everyone
I just got myself this one from the bay out of curiosity (from russia btw..). Can anyone give me a hint. Itist supposed to be a 
"NAKAYAMA SHIRO SUITA NASHIJI", which i dont know if thats true, since it is rather dark, than shiro. But who knows...


















It would be great, if you could enlighten me..


Cheers
Benjamin


----------



## Asteger

Hi B. First of all, the most important thing is if you think it's good or not, having tried it a few times. However, sorry to say that it seems the seller's just randomly gathered together what seems to be some of the eye-catching words for finishers, or he's just used the name this stone was sold to him as, or he's copied the description from another stone and labelled this one 'NAKAYAMA SHIRO SUITA NASHIJI' without knowing or thinking potential buyers won't know what it means. 

Really, I don't feel I'm at all expert on fine finishers, but I think the orange-ish blotches are often characteristic of Narutaki (east mountain: Shobu, Nakayama...) stones, and so 'Nakayama' is possibly credible, but the orange bits make me think more of Shobu. Beyond that - and I'm sure you can google and find a few lists to check these terms besides here - 'shiro' is white, and the stone's not white as you observed, a 'suita' is a suita, and it doesn't look like a suita. 'Nashiji' is a pear and, so like 'shiro,' is only a comment on aesthetics. Although this one has the black specks on it and I think sometimes 'nashiji' is generously used for stones like that, they should be lighter. 'Goma' might be better in this case, like dark sesame seeds. Here's an idea of what a Japanese pear looks like:






Like I indicated, I don't really know but I even wonder if it's possible to have a 'NAKAYAMA SHIRO SUITA NASHIJI'. I don't have one, but think white suita from Nakayama exist, but can't image how these would also be 'nashiji'. 'Renge' maybe with some pink/purple, but not nashiji.


----------



## banjo1071

Yeah, i thought so much..lets see how it turns out

Thanks a lot
Benjamin


----------



## Asteger

For what it's worth, of the 4 descriptors above, for me 'suita' was the important one. It's not a suita, I'm sure, but probably tomae, which isn't a bad thing and could be preferable depending. 'Nakayama' is thrown around, and so I wouldn't pay much attention unless it was from an establishment seller and, I don't know, costing 100,000 yen. Like many terms, as I sort of said, shiro and nashiji are just aesthetic and so don't really mean much about quality, even if I'm sure we also all like better looking stones.

Anyway, when it comes to the lingo, not to worry in a way. There can only be a handful of people who can truly give reliable appraisals and assign all the labels to Kyoto finishers like this, and they're certainly all in Japan, with many others between them and you and I. The stone is obviously an awasedo, and looks pretty clean in the photos. The way stones are sold makes us worry about names and origins, etc, but it shouldn't matter if it works. You can easily but a crap Bourdeaux, and an excellent bottle from somewhere unknown if you know what I mean.


----------



## Andrey V

Agree, the stone you've got looks like Shobu Iromono ( from Tomae layer)but could be hardly identified as " Naka Shiro Suita Nashiji"
I have seen Nakayama Shiro Suitas, i have one as well, i tried many. The appearance was always different. 
The Naka Shiro Suita is actually not really white, is more light yellow. I confirm Asteger's words, can have more Renge then Nashiji. 
Or Kan, circles or rainbow. 
So again, your stone looks like Shobu Iromono. Can be good as well, btw. I have one very cool Shobu Iromono, it does it's job perfectly well. Could be rated ab 6-7k, so anyway in a good Awasedo range, but lower then Nakayama. 
Try it, test it, maybe it's a good one , especially if you didn't pay a fortune.


----------



## Asteger

'Iromono' is nice because it means a stone has more colour than usual, usually some reddishness, and so people pay more for these. Seems the term is only used for Shobu, though I don't know why this would be. However, it's just another aesthetic label you or a seller can use if it fits. 

Here's a shot I just took of 3 similar stones I have around, all with the orangey bits (some kind of oxidisation does this, I think). Actually, the one on the left (a shobu) is totally orange on the back. To me the middle, especially, and the right one which hare more reddishness are more likely to be called iromono.


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> 'Iromono' is nice because it means a stone has more colour than usual, usually some reddishness, and so people pay more for these. Seems the term is only used for Shobu, though I don't know why this would be. However, it's just another aesthetic label you or a seller can use if it fits.
> 
> Here's a shot I just took of 3 similar stones I have around, all with the orangey bits (some kind of oxidisation does this, I think). Actually, the one on the left (a shobu) is totally orange on the back. To me the middle, especially, and the right one which hare more reddishness are more likely to be called iromono.



Exactly 
Though his stone looks again a bit grayish.. 
It could be the color transmission through the lens, we don't see the real stone. 
Anyway, he has to try it. It's the easiest way to understand wether he likes it or not. 
One point is clear : I wouldn't call it " Nakayama Shiro Suita Nashiji" anyway .


----------



## XooMG

Afraid I don't have any shiro suita either, but I did find this lovely Nakayama doorstop with accompanying paperweight:


----------



## Asteger

If that's what you use for doorstops, you must have a spectacular collection


----------



## XooMG

Asteger said:


> If that's what you use for doorstops, you must have a spectacular collection


Nah I'm pretty minimalist and this is about the only boutique stone I've got. Was actually a little reluctant to lap it and the stamp is so faded, I figured I needed to get a picture of it. Most folks these days don't bother with stamps because they are unreliable for determining quality or even origin these days since there are fakes, but this one is legit and is an interesting, if trivial, part of the stone's (and mine's) history.


----------



## Asteger

XooMG said:


> Nah I'm pretty minimalist and this is about the only boutique stone I've got. Was actually a little reluctant to lap it and the stamp is so faded, I figured I needed to get a picture of it. Most folks these days don't bother with stamps because they are unreliable for determining quality or even origin these days since there are fakes, but this one is legit and is an interesting, if trivial, part of the stone's (and mine's) history.



I do the same - take a photo before Atoma-ising it.

About stamps: You say people don't bother much with them these days. I guess you mean international buyers like us compared to a few years ago? Maybe true, but it's probably partly to do with the fact that things like stamps seem very important when you start out, but when you learn more there are other things you can go by when looking at a stone, and maybe the general discussion of these things moves on and reflects better general knowledge if you poke around on forums and read what people say. True, though, that stamps are often not useful; you'll have a Kyoto awasedo and the stamp will just say it's 'honyama'. As for fake stamps, I don't think there's a huge problem at all. Obviously if you're looking on a place like eBay some strange stuff might come up. But if you think of a conventional scenario over in Japan - let's say you go into a local hardware shop looking for an awasedo - I think you'd be safe in assuming what you see is trustworthy (even if any stamps just confirm the obvious).


----------



## XooMG

Asteger said:


> I do the same - take a photo before Atoma-ising it.
> 
> About stamps: You say people don't bother much with them these days. I guess you mean international buyers like us compared to a few years ago? Maybe true, but it's probably partly to do with the fact that things like stamps seem very important when you start out, but when you learn more there are other things you can go by when looking at a stone, and maybe the general discussion of these things moves on and reflects better general knowledge if you poke around on forums and read what people say. True, though, that stamps are often not useful; you'll have a Kyoto awasedo and the stamp will just say it's 'honyama'. As for fake stamps, I don't think there's a huge problem at all. Obviously if you're looking on a place like eBay some strange stuff might come up. But if you think of a conventional scenario over in Japan - let's say you go into a local hardware shop looking for an awasedo - I think you'd be safe in assuming what you see is trustworthy (even if any stamps just confirm the obvious).


I don't have any trouble reading stamps and kanji and have none of the romance that people on these fora have with them, so to me they are generally just labels unless they are from a particular company at a particular time, such as some of the [recent] historical Nakayama stamps (e.g. http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~ttoishi/sub35.htm ). In that game, fakes are pretty common.


----------



## banjo1071

Litte update on this one
Its of much, much lighter colours than in the photos. And most important its a helluva polisher. It creates a hairpopping sharpness in seconds, with a ultracreamy slurry.Whatever it is: i love it.!!

Cheers
Benjamin



banjo1071 said:


> Hi everyone
> I just got myself this one from the bay out of curiosity (from russia btw..). Can anyone give me a hint. Itist supposed to be a
> "NAKAYAMA SHIRO SUITA NASHIJI", which i dont know if thats true, since it is rather dark, than shiro. But who knows...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would be great, if you could enlighten me..
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Benjamin


----------



## brooksie967

Subscribed to this


----------



## Bolek

I bought a blue (asagi)Nakayama. Very nice touch, quite mudy. On the back there is writen "Bouoku". What "Bouoku" means ?


----------



## Asteger

Bolek said:


> I bought a blue (asagi)Nakayama. Very nice touch, quite mudy. On the back there is writen "Bouoku". What "Bouoku" means ?



Sounds like the name of one of the stone sellers in Kyoto. A good thing, probably.


----------



## Bolek

Thanks.
The stone comes in a old looking box.


----------



## XooMG

&#22346;&#22885;&#30757;&#30707;?


----------



## Bolek

no. on the box : front : "Asagi" (old label) on the back (pencil)"NAKAYAMA-ASAGI 1100gr" and on a label (modern) on the stone :"Asagi (Bouku)"
No kanji.


----------



## Asteger

Bolek said:


> no. on the box : front : "Asagi" (old label) on the back (pencil)"NAKAYAMA-ASAGI 1100gr" and on a label (modern) on the stone :"Asagi (Bouku)" No kanji.



Always good and interesting to see photographic evidence.


----------



## Bolek

Cant find the : 'Photos & Albums' link, to create an album.
In the mean time link to the seller :


http://lapassiondescouteaux.fr/pier...pierre-dure-de-finition-grain-1000020000.html


----------



## Newbflat

Hi all... 

It been a while and have drifted back into the knife world after a few years. After multi moves and most of my things in storage, I'm now unpacked and enjoying a reintroduction to my stones. 

I have a LET of stones but only a few Japanese naturals. A big whit brink of a thing that someone gave me and can't seem to find. It's corse (3-500 grit) and is very soft. I used it very little. 
I have a Aoto that I bought 20? Years ago from a Japanese tool sight and is useless. It has so many toxic inclusions I can't even use it... On the good side it make a super door stop. 

My only stone I have that works is a mystery stone .... It's one of these ( http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=85762 ) and I have been using it for about 6-7 years. It's hard but not super hard and works on my razors but only just. Oddly the first one I got from them literally fell apart while using it. Big sheets would flake off and it would need major flattening, then it would do it all over again. Lucky they are close to me so I took it back and they very reluctantly gave me another. That one has been fine. Any idea what those stones are? 

I do have a point here... I need some guidance. I want a new stone ( don't we all). What I'm looking for is a bit odd. I want a counter top stone for my kitchen knives. It will be for sharpening gyuotos and pettys mostly, 90% carbon mostly white#2 and some Honyaki w#2 ..with the odd stainless. I will mount it on a board that will fit the sink and also sit and look nice on the counter. It needs to be in the 5-7000 grit range or so. I'm totally lost in the Japanese stone nomenclature so forgive me..

But here is the kicker..... I'm looking for a stone with a natural shape and not a brick. I love the look of a odd shaped stone with the skin still on and the look of a actual rock. It doesn't need to be on all sides but it does need to have a nice attractive and useful shape. It should be fairly large as well. 

The idea is to have a nice attractive piece of stone on the counter on a nice base. It will be 'featured' and a bit of a focal piece ( at least by me). I sharpen nearly daily before most meals as I just love a fresh edge on my knives so it would be in use daily or near so. 

I have seen some lovely pictures on the forum of stunning stones with a natural shape that look to be kitchen counter stones ( for lack of a better term) and I'm looking for the same sort of idea. 

So... Can someone point me in the right direction? Are there venders that have a lot of natural edge stones? Is there a name for stones with a natural edge? Anything thoughts on the type of stone I'm looking for in terms of performance ( i.e. A fine but toothy edge) At the moment I'm using a Rika as my final stone and sometimes my Japanese natural and would like something about in between. The Rika is still a bit too corse and my natural is plenty fine... Maybe more than i need. 

Thoughts?

Bill


----------



## Asteger

Hi Bill

That 'big white brick thing' which is coarse is probably going to be an Amakusa binsui, not the coarsest stone but maybe on the 2nd level of coarseness. 

Looking at your link, the dud first flakey stone you had before, and the replacement, are just normal Kyoto finishers (awasedo). Honyama's just a generic name so you know it's from around Kyoto, but which is still obvious when you see the stone. That first one shouldn't have flaked about like that, but it could happen I guess because stones like these are layered (formed by sediment) and there can be some looseness. Don't know in this case, but one thing you can do is tap along a stone like this and see if it has a consistent solid sound along it and no hollow-ish sounds indicating weaknesses between the layers. Also, of course, lacquer the sides of a stone like this and don't soak. 

About looking for a 'natural' natural stone with an odd shape, you could be lucky in a way because irregularly shaped stones tend to go for less. On the other hand, they're also often small koppa-sized stones, but with big ones also out there. Foreign buyers probably don't usually like the odd shapes and prefer the brick look more, and so foreign stone sellers don't seem to stock these much and irregularly shaped stones would be more available in Japan. 

At the 5-7000 grit range you'd be looking for another awasedo, not medium or coarser stones from elsewhere than Kyoto. There are lots of possibilities when it comes to the mines and also layers. Do you want it to have medium hardness? Will you also use it for razors? How important is speed?

One thing that might not work - you mentioned you like to see the skin, but this will be found on the bottom of the stone and only sometimes around the sides with less uniformly shaped/cut stones. Even though that irregular type is what you want, any skin's still going to be mostly underneath and so if you mount it, like you said, then it's going to be hidden. 

Maybe try looking at Aframes, which often stocks more irregularly shaped stones and koppas and which also offers better communication, and consider the kind of hardness and speed you want, and if you want it for razors as well. What's the owner's name? ... I forget, Takeshi? I'd have a look at what's on offer for a taste, but send an email.


----------



## Andrey V

Agree with Asteger. It sounds more to be a Takeshi stuff. Especially from his old stock. Just check his offer, choose some stones, then ask him. He is normally very reactive, he can even film a video showing the stone/ testing it. Bill, it could really match your expectations- he often has some not-a-brick- form finishers with nice skin, sometimes not that even in thickness as well, maybe exactly what are you looking at. All JNS. stones are generally better pre-selected, it gives you a very safe result, but you should be ready for a higher price as well. So check it. Good luck.


----------



## Newbflat

Thanks for the suggestions. I will contact Aframes about what I'm looking for. 

I'm thinking i want a medium stone as I'm guessing it will cut a bit faster. But io assume that just depends on the quality of the stone as much as anything else. I will not be using it for razors, just a dedicated stone for the kitchen. I do need to get a razor stone but that's another story. 

Here are a few pictures of what I'm looking for more or less just in terms of shape. I haven't a clew about the actual stones.. I just picked these up off a google image search. 

Bill

https://seattlebill.smugmug.com/photos/i-czsj2xd/0/O/i-czsj2xd.jpg
https://seattlebill.smugmug.com/photos/i-GFwRSLQ/0/O/i-GFwRSLQ.jpg
https://seattlebill.smugmug.com/photos/i-5HMZtVT/0/O/i-5HMZtVT.jpg


----------



## daveb

You've seen the one listed on BST right now?


----------



## Newbflat

Hmm... No, I will go and look.


----------



## Newbflat

Pm sent...

Can someone tell me what was used traditionally to attach a stone to a wood base?

Oh, and Renge..... What is it. Is it good? Will it help my memory lapses?


----------



## daveb

Renge

http://www.google.com/search?q=site...34.mobile-heirloom-serp..18.3.575.K7yI4qkhM6I


----------



## chinacats

Newbflat said:


> Pm sent...
> 
> Can someone tell me what was used traditionally to attach a stone to a wood base?
> 
> Oh, and Renge..... What is it. Is it good? Will it help my memory lapses?




http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/natural-stones-glossary-and-appearance/


----------



## Newbflat

Thanks for the links. So much to learn. 

Bill


----------



## Asteger

Newbflat said:


> ...I'm thinking i want a medium stone as I'm guessing it will cut a bit faster. But io assume that just depends on the quality of the stone as much as anything else. I will not be using it for razors, just a dedicated stone for the kitchen....



I don't think so. Mediums are a different sort of thing to what most people would picture as a 'jnat' which is likely to be a gotogi (layered stone) from Kyoto. You like irregular shapes and skin, and mediums are generally not gotogi and do not have skin, and so can and are usually regular and brick-like in shape. They'll also be below the 5-7k range you mentioned. Traditional aoto are the exception, as they are layered, but you sharpen perpendicular along the layers. Yes, if you want irregular shapes and bits of skin aoto can give you this, though. 

Of course different naturals cut at different speeds, I guess also depending on the steels used, etc, but speed can be one factor and not the only one when thinking of quality.

Renge - to me is an appearance thing but some might think/imagine it means more abrasiveness/speed. The word's overused, and so loses meaning I think and becomes more a marketing term. Anyway, have a google around on this

I think when mounting stones, traditionally hollows might just have been cut/chiselled out and a stone could rest within some wood, maybe not glued on. Don't know, just and impression. Maybe I'd try silicon if you wanted to glue-mount?


----------



## jklip13

Just got this in today, all lapped up but haven't had a chance to use it yet
Ohira Suita I think, but really i have no idea


----------



## Asteger

Hi J, the thread revives! This one looks interesting, and an Ohira sounds possible/probable, but we never know do we. 

Gosh, aren't you a student in pricey USA? I could be in the same situation elsewhere in the coming year, so will be downsizing not stocking up on thick renge suita 

Do you have plans for this one, or will try it first and see what it's like?


----------



## jklip13

I just had the chance to use it a little and have been pleasantly surprised, I was expecting a little granularity from all the little specks and lines, but so far so good.


----------



## Asteger

... Ir you get time, would be interesting to see some other of your stuff.


----------



## jklip13

Asteger said:


> ... Ir you get time, would be interesting to see some other of your stuff.



I got time 
from left to right across :
Ohira Suita, Nakayama Maruka (in box), Shobudani Karasu, Koma Nagura
Ohira Suita, Ozuku Suita, Okudo Suita, Koma Nagura, Uchigumori (ohira suita)


----------



## Andrey V

Yep, it looks most probably like a big Ohira Renge Suita. 
Ohira tends to have lines across / along the surface, such dots can explain the cross cut used to form the stone. 
There are normally no surprises- if it cuts from the very beginning- it cuts all the life. 
I'm in love with Ohira, and very glad you have it.
Congrats![emoji120]&#127995;[emoji120]&#127995;


----------



## jklip13

I'm in love with Suita, IMO Good suita will always be better, faster and more versatile than good Tomae, but bad suita are a lot more common than bad tomae.


----------



## Asteger

jklip13 said:


> I'm in love with Suita, IMO Good suita will always be better, faster and more versatile



Faster for sure, better has to depend, more versatile - why do you think? only due to speed?

Jon, sorry as I also couldn't follow your photo-navigations


----------



## jklip13

I find Suita stones tend to respond differently depending on how you prep the surface, for instance on double bevel knives I will use a 400 atoma and get a lot of aggression out of the stone. When using a 1200 atoma followed with nagura the same stone can produce much finer polishes more suitable for single beveled knives. I find the different less pronounced on Tomae stones


----------



## Asteger

jklip13 said:


> I find Suita stones tend to respond differently depending on how you prep the surface, for instance on double bevel knives I will use a 400 atoma and get a lot of aggression out of the stone. When using a 1200 atoma followed with nagura the same stone can produce much finer polishes more suitable for single beveled knives. I find the different less pronounced on Tomae stones



Reasonable to expect more variety of particles in the slurry on a suita and so, along with versatility, unpredictability too. Using 400 and 1200, and also introducing nagura, will vary things in either case so not a surprise. Yeah, I think you can get more with a suita, but as indicated more risk too. I think there's an element of impatience sometimes, understandable with coarse stones and hours-long thinning and that, but in the finer realms 'speed' isn't the same concern and so, within reason, I tend to discount it. But absolutely, if you have the right suita then it'd be very versatile. You told me you use them, and so do you find things work differently with razors?


----------



## jklip13

For suita to be suitable for razors they have to be extremely hard. Again just my opinion. I only have 1 suita I use for razors, I find the others too harsh , but perfect for kitchen knives


----------



## Asteger

jklip13 said:


> For suita to be suitable for razors they have to be extremely hard. Again just my opinion. I only have 1 suita I use for razors, I find the others too harsh , but perfect for kitchen knives



Harsh sounds a good word. I had 1 or 2 suita previously which I think would work with razors but where'd really hard, but I also have limited razor experience. Maybe there's a small area of potential crossover with them.


----------



## jklip13

Super hard stones tend to be easy to use with razors, provided you have some way of generating a slurry and don't use plain water. Honing with clean water (no slurry) on them is very challenging


----------



## Andrey V

I wouldn't recommend using Suitas for razors. They can seriously damage the blade- due to existing Su. Especially when honing on plain water. So a good hard Tomae/Asagi works definitely better, due to much better consistency and more predictable granularity. 
The knives are another world- here a good Suita is the King, especially a good Ohira Suita.. Oh yeah..[emoji41][emoji41]


----------



## brooksie967

I use suita on razors in every progression, never once damaged an edge.


----------



## brooksie967

In fact, i have three suitas that i use for midrange stones post chosera 1k that play very well with razors, a nakayama suita, hideriyama renge suita and a very fine shobudani suita with black renge. None have ever damaged an edge on a razor.


----------



## Asteger

Lots of evidence with suita success on razors, sure. Depends which, of course. With knives too, you can see that bigger su will accumulate slurry and then the experience becomes uneven. Also with razors and bigger su, I'd think of larger bits breaking off, not to mention the bigger range of stuff that often are found in suita, anyway. Finer su must be a diff story. 



jklip13 said:


> Super hard stones tend to be easy to use with razors, provided you have some way of generating a slurry and don't use plain water. Honing with clean water (no slurry) on them is very challenging



Sure, yes. Toishi 101!


----------



## jklip13

I've never bought stones, with big visible Su in them, too unpredictable for me


----------



## Asteger

I guess the idea has to be that there's always going to be an added bit of chance involved with any su-laden (suita) stone and so you just hope that the balance works out for its intended purpose. I'm not a woodworking tool user, but certainly get why they are cherished there. With knives not mandatory I'd say, and with razors risky but certainly possible


----------



## Andrey V

Ok, boys, I should clarify my comments. 
I thought we were talking/ discussing the last shown Suita( which was Ohira). Having tried 25-30 preselected Ohira Suitas ( good to excellent)i found out that they all were good to great for knives first of all. Because of quite aggressive holes it cuts damn good, but can be dangerous for a super fine razor edge. 
On the other hand there are impressive Suitas in my " Tennen Toishi House" as well, like Nakayama Suitas, Shinden Suita. My beloved Okudo Suitas are hard and more suitable for harder knives and swords, an Okudo Kiita is great again for razors& tools when harder and super duper cutter for knives if softer. 
A Shobu is interesting in any appearance, but to me it's rather a good reliable VW or Audi then a Bentley. Sure, i may be wrong. 
And again, a great Ohira Suita is my must stone beside a good range of great stones on my shelf( Aiiwa as well) when thinking of knives, and a cool Maruka when thinking of razors. 
Hope to have explained my previous ideas.


----------



## Andrey V

Hi boys
Here is my new basic stone- a lovely Numata - it's around 1000, a bit more.
Having a lot of fine grit stones don't feel the real need to expand in the nishe. But midrange or low rangers ( cheers Asteger - here is some limited space to move. 
Bit finer then Amakuza, feels soft but quite dense. 
In comparison to an artificial 1000- er is definitely slower but doesn't tend to " eat" the steel as synthetic stones do. Not that aggressive. 
So all- in- all- a good quite interesting basic stone. 
Nice soft sharpening's feeling indeed..


----------



## Asteger

Ah-ha! I was wondering who bought this one, and looks like it found a good home, La Maison de Toishi a Moscou

Really good description and I'm glad you like it (and also happy that you're becoming bored of your fine layered stones now :groucho: aren't you?). Soon you can join the Medium Team.

I was curious about this stone because Maxim's description was so glowing (well, let's face it: his descriptions are always 'super' glowing) but this one was more distinct than usual. 

Numata are from Gunma, where there seems to have been several kinds of stones that few people will ever see let alone hear of. I'm not sure if what you have is what I've had before, but I've owned 3 or 4 Numata and still keep one. However, they're Numata Hyotan and seem to be the best-regarded. I'm not sure if yours is or not, and I don't think M knows about these either and this is certainly the first Numata I've ever seen on JNS. It's a stone I've mentioned before on this thread. 

Here's a photo of one of the ones I sold on BST below. The other 1 or 2 were pretty much exactly the same, and also the one I kept (just because it was the bigger one). They were/are all great, one of my favs, and all performed very well, pretty much the identically, and your description above suits them. 

Here's one of them:






In person the colour is slightly off-white, with various specks, and I always think of it as some sort of cream sauce or béchamel or something, but it's a little grey too. The colour in the photo is yellower than in person, though; photo was at sunset. The lines, like we see in your photo, come out more when it's wet, but yours appears to have more lines and colour and looks busier overall (maybe there's some discolouration from lengthy past storage too). The slurry looks the same, however, and based on your reaction sounds very close to what I've experienced. Congrats.


----------



## panda

you remember the first time you experienced a jknife? i got the same feeling when i tried aizu for the first time.
i never thought that i could be 'in love' with a stone, but it finally happened with aizu. i am so absofreakinlutely enamored with how awesome it is. it cuts so fast i've no need to drop down to 1k unless the edge is really bad shape and the finishing edge it leaves is just perfect for food. extra toothy yet refined enough to provide smooth cuts. it can go upto around 3500grit but i stop as soon as i feel the slurry breaking down and only do stropping motions, i'd guess my end results are right around 3200 grit. feedback is almost as good as ikarashi, and overall it has made ikarashi obsolete in my setup, but i'll keep it around for any stainless knives i may have to sharpen (very infrequent).


----------



## Dardeau

What does the finish look like?


----------



## panda

i dont mean blade finish, i have no idea i only do the edge with it. i do my blade roads with a natsuya (600-1k grit) which is hazy as fux, looks like i rubbed it with sand paper


----------



## Doug

Dardeau said:


> What does the finish look like?



Darkhoek has an image of an aizu finish in his honyaki dream team stone review


----------



## Dardeau

Wish the knife was san mai, it doesn't give me a great idea of what it would look like on the cladding


----------



## Asteger

panda said:


> it can go upto around 3500grit but i stop as soon as i feel the slurry breaking down and only do stropping motions, i'd guess my end results are right around 3200 grit.



Wow, P, you're pretty much KKF's foremost scientist when it comes to this. Telling the difference between 3200 and 3500? Impressive awareness



Dardeau said:


> Wish the knife was san mai, it doesn't give me a great idea of what it would look like on the cladding



If P doesn't post something, I'll see if I can. Pretty smooth on the cladding, and dark as opposed to white/misty


----------



## panda

it sounds silly, but i swear the middle grits there is still noticeable difference in feel. in this instance, i say 3200 because it's at the very tail end of grabbiness and starting point of you could say pre-polish. 3k to me is still a little grabby and 3.5k where i feel polish begins. for reference that red aoto was to me along the lines of 3800-ish, the slurry broke down a lot.


----------



## Asteger

panda said:


> it sounds silly, but i swear the middle grits there is still noticeable difference in feel. in this instance, i say 3200 because it's at the very tail end of grabbiness and starting point of you could say pre-polish. 3k to me is still a little grabby and 3.5k where i feel polish begins. for reference that red aoto was to me along the lines of 3800-ish, the slurry broke down a lot.



To me, I put this down to you doing this more or less on a day to day (I guess?) basis and really being attuned to the task and knowing what you need an prefer. Very cool that you've now found this particular zone. :thumbsup:


----------



## Andrey V

Dardeau said:


> What does the finish look like?



I don't look at it really. 
To me it's just a starter- so I don't really look on what all the basic/ med stones leave( Numata, Ikarashi, Binsui any kind, Amakusa, etc etc etc). 
Pretty cloudy , as after medium- soft 1000- er stone.


----------



## Andrey V

panda said:


> it sounds silly, but i swear the middle grits there is still noticeable difference in feel. in this instance, i say 3200 because it's at the very tail end of grabbiness and starting point of you could say pre-polish. 3k to me is still a little grabby and 3.5k where i feel polish begins. for reference that red aoto was to me along the lines of 3800-ish, the slurry broke down a lot.



Plus /minus same sh..t. [emoji12][emoji12]. 

I agree, though the medium is again the stop in- between to me


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Ah-ha! I was wondering who bought this one, and looks like it found a good home, La Maison de Toishi a Moscou
> 
> Really good description and I'm glad you like it (and also happy that you're becoming bored of your fine layered stones now :groucho: aren't you?). Soon you can join the Medium Team.
> 
> Congrats.



Thanks mate
The spots on it get removed my sharpening- which is the confirmation of something taken from outside while storing them. 
Reg the Medium team.. Well- I always had a nice place inside my Tennen Toishi House for them! 
I already have a good set of it-i miss only some of them, like Aizu. 
But the rest is here, in my love TTHouse[emoji12][emoji12][emoji12][emoji317][emoji317][emoji317][emoji106]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;!!


----------



## designdog

I'm back.

Broke out some stones and have commenced to make up for about a year's worth of not sharpening anything. Since I have around 50 great knives to choose from, it is doubtful any one of them has been used more than four times since the last sharpening - I rotate them fastidiously.

So I racked up an Aoto, Takashima, and Ohira, and set off. Started with a Takayuki gyuto, bad choice on my part, as it is Ginsan and harder to sharpen. Could not get a bevel on the Aoto so I switched to Aizu and still no luck. Second knife was a Heiji gyoto, got some bevel, not much. I was beginning to wonder why I liked sharpening so much until I hit the Takashima, and it all came back to me. The feel. The smell. The relaxation. And, after the Ohira, the results were as good as I remember. Sharp, sharp, sharp.

I did come to some conclusions, however. First, I do want to get a bevel, so I am going to cheat and use Jon's 1k diamond stone for about 20 swipes per side before going to the aoto. Second, while I have a healthy amount of 2-3k stones, and an ungodly amount of Suita, my only medium stones, in the 5-6k range, are the Takashima and the Hakka. Need some enhancement here. Any suggestions?

BCC, Asteger - did I buy a Numata from you? I have a new iMac and seem to have misplaced the list of stones I purchased from you...


----------



## Asteger

Hi DD! Numata, mmm... I think I had 3 originally. One stayed, one went to Brazil and the other, if not to you, wound up in Norway, but Norway seems the more likely. Do you have a picture? The 2 I sold (I think it was only 2) looked pretty much like twins after lacquering et al, and this was one (though more yellowish in this light than usual):


----------



## Dazedandkasumi

Asteger said:


> Hi DD! Numata, mmm... I think I had 3 originally. One stayed, one went to Brazil and the other, if not to you, wound up in Norway, but Norway seems the more likely. Do you have a picture? The 2 I sold (I think it was only 2) looked pretty much like twins after lacquering et al, and this was one (though more yellowish in this light than usual):




Jupp one endedup in Norway allright
Great stone! Get one if you have the oportunity..


----------



## panda

takayuki heat treat must be crap, ginsan is super easy to sharpen!!

i find with nats, starting a slurry first with diamond cuts much much quicker. i don't even go past aizu, i think it leaves perfect edge for gyutos. 

hakka should be closer to 7-8k, and has wonderful feedback, not sure why you'd want 'enhancement' over that, perhaps you got a lesser one?


----------



## designdog

panda,

Naw, it was more "out of practice" error on my part. The Takayuki came up quite nicely. Actually both my Takashima and Hakka are fine stones, but I think the Hakka is below Suita. In any case, I like something between the Aizu and Suita, and was looking for another stone to add to the Takashima and Hakka. Like a couple of crazy people here, I also go past Suita on occasion, jumping on my Nakayam Tomae...

BCC to Aster yes I have a Numata from you! You must have sold 3.


----------



## Badgertooth

designdog said:


> panda,
> 
> Naw, it was more "out of practice" error on my part. The Takayuki came up quite nicely. Actually both my Takashima and Hakka are fine stones, but I think the Hakka is below Suita. In any case, I like something between the Aizu and Suita, and was looking for another stone to add to the Takashima and Hakka. Like a couple of crazy people here, I also go past Suita on occasion, jumping on my Nakayam Tomae...
> 
> BCC to Aster yes I have a Numata from you! You must have sold 3.



You enjoying your Numata? I really love mine


----------



## Doug

Badger tooth, how would you compare your Numata to an Aizu? It looks like a softer and muddier stone.

Thanks, Doug


----------



## Asteger

Doug said:


> Badger tooth, how would you compare your Numata to an Aizu? It looks like a softer and muddier stone



I've dealt with 3 of them, now apparently 4. (Thanks, DD.) These were Hyotan Numata, which should be pointed out as more than one type of stone originates from Gunma-ken and maybe more than one kind of Numata, so it seems stone users in Japan distinguish with this a bit. Just saying in case.

A bit coarser than Aizu but I think in the over 1k range. Not that much difference in hardness to talk of, I think. Fineness difference is probably down to no more than 1k or 2k between them. 

I've noticed JNS has just this year recently carried Numata and Natsuya for the first time. No real background supplied on these (and no clarification on Numata, for eg) as I don't think Max really knows and they seem new stones for him which he might only have heard of here, even if their sale profiles make it sound as though it's all old hat over there. It's a good thing for knife users I think. Way too much attention to fine finishers which, while profitable for sellers and expensive, I think take knife users off into non-that-useful and more expensive directions. I tend to bang on about this a quite-ish way, but I think it's true. These more 'med'-rated nats are where it's at, along with the usual non-fine awasedo if you want to go a bit higher. Knives not razors.


----------



## Badgertooth

Doug said:


> Badger tooth, how would you compare your Numata to an Aizu? It looks like a softer and muddier stone.
> 
> Thanks, Doug



I'd echo most of what Asteger said. It's finer than binsui and Ikarashi but not quite as refined as Aizu. It is actually quite hard, the amount of slurry there is due more to my sharpening a wide bevel and the fact that I'd made quite a big jump from a 400 synth so the scratches on the blade helped kick up mud. More convened and hamaguri edges won't give you quite as much mud but it won't skate either.

FWIW I really like it


----------



## Doug

Asteger said:


> I've dealt with 3 of them, now apparently 4. (Thanks, DD.) These were Hyotan Numata, which should be pointed out as more than one type of stone originates from Gunma-ken and maybe more than one kind of Numata, so it seems stone users in Japan distinguish with this a bit. Just saying in case.
> 
> A bit coarser than Aizu but I think in the over 1k range. Not that much difference in hardness to talk of, I think. Fineness difference is probably down to no more than 1k or 2k between them.
> 
> I've noticed JNS has just this year recently carried Numata and Natsuya for the first time. No real background supplied on these (and no clarification on Numata, for eg) as I don't think Max really knows and they seem new stones for him which he might only have heard of here, even if their sale profiles make it sound as though it's all old hat over there. It's a good thing for knife users I think. Way too much attention to fine finishers which, while profitable for sellers and expensive, I think take knife users off into non-that-useful and more expensive directions. I tend to bang on about this a quite-ish way, but I think it's true. These more 'med'-rated nats are where it's at, along with the usual non-fine awasedo if you want to go a bit higher. Knives not razors.



Good info Asteger, grazie. Got to say this has been my favorite kkf thread, Glad to see it getting more action lately.


----------



## Doug

Badgertooth said:


> I'd echo most of what Asteger said. It's finer than binsui and Ikarashi but not quite as refined as Aizu. It is actually quite hard, the amount of slurry there is due more to my sharpening a wide bevel and the fact that I'd made quite a big jump from a 400 synth so the scratches on the blade helped kick up mud. More convened and hamaguri edges won't give you quite as much mud but it won't skate either.
> 
> FWIW I really like it



Good to have you guys lead the way testing different mid range J-nats. Like your post with photos . Starting to feel that "quest for stone itch" coming on strong again. Thought I might look into the Thai naturals that you posted. You may have to start a new thread,,T-Nat Club


----------



## Asteger

Doug said:


> You may have to start a new thread,,T-Nat Club



Nice one


----------



## Doug

Thought I'd show some work on a Kikuichi Ginsan yanagiba using the Aizu I carried back from Japan this March.





I've removed chips from the edge with synthetics (the owner dropped it on the floor, ouch) and now I'm blending and flattening the bevel on the Aizu.




Was suprised to see alloy banding in the jigane. Also saw this in a Korin Ginsan Usuba that I worked on. Wonder what kind of stainless they used for jigane?

Note that I cleaned the swarth from the stone before taking these shots. Stone produces swarth fairly quickly with wide bevels but it cuts faster if I raise a slurry with an atoma. I found that by controlling the swarth and not working to hard and fast I can get a pretty even scratch pattern.

Got to say this is a beautiful stone. Love my muddy Aoto rocks(they have there own visual appeal), but there's something very pleasing about working on this pretty Nakado.


----------



## bryan03

how know where i can find some UCHIGOMORI ?


----------



## krx927

cassca said:


> how know where i can find some UCHIGOMORI ?



try aframes


----------



## bryan03

nothing online, maybe by email....


----------



## krx927

I see a lot of them in the Ohira section available on line


----------



## Asteger

Doug said:


> View attachment 32279
> 
> Got to say this is a beautiful stone. Love my muddy Aoto rocks(they have there own visual appeal), but there's something very pleasing about working on this pretty Nakado.



Glad you like the Aizu and it's a nice finish, which I've always thought they gave too. Also agree with you about using the diamond; I use an Atoma nagura for this, but might also try to make Aizu nagura in the future.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

Asteger said:


> I've dealt with 3 of them, now apparently 4. (Thanks, DD.) These were Hyotan Numata, which should be pointed out as more than one type of stone originates from Gunma-ken and maybe more than one kind of Numata, so it seems stone users in Japan distinguish with this a bit. Just saying in case.
> 
> A bit coarser than Aizu but I think in the over 1k range. Not that much difference in hardness to talk of, I think. Fineness difference is probably down to no more than 1k or 2k between them.
> 
> I've noticed JNS has just this year recently carried Numata and Natsuya for the first time. No real background supplied on these (and no clarification on Numata, for eg) as I don't think Max really knows and they seem new stones for him which he might only have heard of here, even if their sale profiles make it sound as though it's all old hat over there. It's a good thing for knife users I think. Way too much attention to fine finishers which, while profitable for sellers and expensive, I think take knife users off into non-that-useful and more expensive directions. I tend to bang on about this a quite-ish way, but I think it's true. These more 'med'-rated nats are where it's at, along with the usual non-fine awasedo if you want to go a bit higher. Knives not razors.



Hi Gerrard! The Numata from JNS feels much coarser, with a grit range similar to binsui, but faster. I actually replaced the binsui as my natural edge setter for it. The Hyotan Numata feels harder and finer, just like people here have described them. By the way, anyone has tried JNS Natsuya?


----------



## Asteger

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Hi Gerrard! The Numata from JNS feels much coarser, with a grit range similar to binsui, but faster.



That def sounds binsui-esque in comparison to Numata I'm used to. Interesting as it lends weight to my impression that there are other non-Hyotan Numata, and of course the Jns description offered slim detail on the Numata being sold.


----------



## jklip13

Just got this one in on the left, any ideas? on the right is a Naniwa Chosera 1k for comparison. It feels like a soft honyama type stone, anyone seen this pattern before?


----------



## Doug

jklip13 said:


> Just got this one in on the left, any ideas? on the right is a Naniwa Chosera 1k for comparison. It feels like a soft honyama type stone, anyone seen this pattern before?



Nice size stone. What does it look like on the sides and bottom?


----------



## Asteger

jklip13 said:


> Just got this one in on the left, any ideas?



Never! The pattern looks like it's because the stone was in contact with something else - almost woodgrain-like. What do you know about it? 

Does look finer, post-nakato


----------



## jklip13

Asteger said:


> Never! The pattern looks like it's because the stone was in contact with something else - almost woodgrain-like. What do you know about it?
> 
> Does look finer, post-nakato



I basically know nothing about it , I'll put up a side and base pic


----------



## jklip13




----------



## YG420

I seen a few stones with that pattern on ebay.


----------



## Asteger

Hmm... I was at first just kidding about the pattern, but we don't see it on the bottom, though we do see a normal range of lighter gotogi colours and also some darker grey stuff on the sides, which could be normal or a bit of staining in the case of the grey. It would be a really unusual pattern if it were real, but I'm kind of leaning towards my at first joking idea that it came into contact with something. At any rate, looks like a nice stone so to me it wouldn't matter either way other than for curiosity. Atomise it and seed if the pattern stays, I say

Oh, very thick too and looks like almost a 24-gata in size. At least 40mm thick?


----------



## jklip13

I thought so too, I've taken a couple mm off to flatten the face and the pattern hasn't changed. The stone is huge so it's possible the pattern disappears mid way through


----------



## Asteger

jklip13 said:


> I thought so too, I've taken a couple mm off to flatten the face and the pattern hasn't changed. The stone is huge so it's possible the pattern disappears mid way through



Quite unique


----------



## Andrey V

Hi boys. Shouldn't be lazy , but.. Ok, I will start posting my ideas/ impressions again. 
By the end of the week i'll have a big sharpening session for my friend . Using almost all the mentioned basic& med stones. To finish, of course, with my lovely finishers( should check the Tennen Toishi House- what rests unused for years??) . 
Of course i have my impressions for every stone, especially in combination with certain stones- will post some of new ideas, if they come. JNS Numata, Natsuya etc ( lately discussed stones) are impressive. Quite. 
His 300- er is better to start anyway. Even for me- and you know how i " love" synthetic stones.. So à plus tard


----------



## jaknil

I have this Takashima:

Original seller info: http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/takashima-lv-2-5-a940/

In wet condition:




It has been laquered by me:




Almost dried out again:



It does look a bit more green dry than this pic shows.

As you can clearly see in the pics it does have a few air-pockets.
Is there a bit of su in all Takashima? or is it rare?
I don´t know if you can talk about su in Takashima, as I don´t remember having ever seen it mentioned or commented.


----------



## jaknil

Just to clarify if anyone was in doubt:
Picture no. 2 is the laquered bottom of the stone.


----------



## Badgertooth

Can't answer about su but if it performs anything likes its sales blurb, it'd be a great stone. I imagine it leaves a fairly bitey edge and a very uniform hazy/sandblasted type finish


----------



## jaknil

Another subject I want to ask the panel of is about grit size. 
Is it possible to say that eg. ohira suita is different than other types of ohira? I belive the suita strata is the lowest, so that could lead to that it is also the hardest layer.
Maxim is refering only to hardness (eg. lv 4) as the particel size seems to be a result of this. 
Have I understood this correct? That would mean that the suitas are generally harder and finer than other ohiras.


The Ohira would be finer and leave a more polished edge than the Takashima i understand. 
But would a lv 4 takashima be finer than a lv 3,5 Ohira? 
(eg. http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/takashima-karasu-lv-4-a976/ vs http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/ohira-range-suita-lv-3-5-a963/)

The Chu Nagura is in the same grit range as the Takashima, so these two will compare (except form the feeling during the sharpening?) 
Or not? 

The agatoyama is between the Aiiwatani and the Ohira, or not?

The Okudo has the same, or a different grit size than the Shinden and the Ohira?

I am aware that every stone is different, and that the grit size overlaps. But is it possible to say this in general?
Or is it only me trying to make something to simple? (is it all just me rampling?)


----------



## Andrey V

jaknil said:


> Another subject I want to ask the panel of is about grit size.
> Is it possible to say that eg. ohira suita is different than other types of ohira? I belive the suita strata is the lowest, so that could lead to that it is also the hardest layer.
> Maxim is refering only to hardness (eg. lv 4) as the particel size seems to be a result of this.
> Have I understood this correct? That would mean that the suitas are generally harder and finer than other ohiras.
> 
> 
> The Ohira would be finer and leave a more polished edge than the Takashima i understand.
> But would a lv 4 takashima be finer than a lv 3,5 Ohira?
> (eg. http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/takashima-karasu-lv-4-a976/ vs http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/ohira-range-suita-lv-3-5-a963/)
> 
> The Chu Nagura is in the same grit range as the Takashima, so these two will compare (except form the feeling during the sharpening?)
> Or not?
> 
> The agatoyama is between the Aiiwatani and the Ohira, or not?
> 
> The Okudo has the same, or a different grit size than the Shinden and the Ohira?
> 
> I am aware that every stone is different, and that the grit size overlaps. But is it possible to say this in general?
> Or is it only me trying to make something to simple? (is it all just me rampling?)



Many questions- many answers  

Takashima is lower then Ohira Suita. Even the fine Takashima isn't that fine- but you can compare it with softer reddish Ohira ( mostly Tomae). 
Or higher layers, they are softer- look at the Red Ohira at JNS. 

OHira Suita leaves better/ higher / glossier finish. 

Okudo, if we talk about Suitas, is harder/ finer then Ohira. Normally. Normally more expensive as well. 
The harder the steel is, the better it will be polished on it. Shinden is a rare great stone as well, the good Suita is quite hard again. 
Ohira in Suita is very quick and a bit lower in grit. But every single stone can be different. 

Chu vs Takashima- hmmm. Isn't the same. Absolutely not. Chu us Chu. Is coarser, i like it as a med stone. But isn't on Takashima level. They are just very different. To me different tasks ad well. 
I have Takashimas from soft to hard, but generally they tend to be quite soft. Hakka-ish, i we can call it so. 
If you choose between Takashima & Ohira, especially in Suita- I would ( being in love with Ohira for sure) advice you to go for Ohira, no doubts to me. 

Again- Okudo is just another league, they all are fine stones. 
You need good coarse and med stones to be pleased with your finishers. 
Atago is to me s bit under Aiiwa, I personally rank Aiiwas quite high, especially their Kiitas. 
Having many selected stones from all the mentioned mines i have built up this opinion. 

Don't forget you can't get same results using one stone on different knives made of very different steels with different heat treat. 
If you need a stone to use mostly as a finisher, and you like harder stones- a good 3,4/4 lvl Ohira Suita is a very good choice. Btw- the one you mention is this " normal " Ohira. A WorkHorse. Not splendid, not wow, just very good. A WOW-Ohira is much more expensive ..[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
If you like s softer stone as a finisher- a Hakka or a Takashima could be good. Leaving a cloudy finishes. 

The stone you show shouldn't be expensive, the holes you have aren't su, it looks like a Tomae level with some holes. Do they affect sharpening? Hope they don't damage the blade. 
Generally grayish/ greenish colors speak for basic/ harder levels like T/A. Many Takashima i have are reddish/reddish-orange , sometimes with some greenish spots, but no holes like yours. 
And reg Kiita fashion ( Aiiwa,Nakayama, Okudo, Ohira, etc)... Yeah.. I love them!! They are f..g great.. Nice, hard, fine, a perverse beauty [emoji12][emoji12][emoji41][emoji41][emoji123]&#127995;[emoji123]&#127995;. 
If you can afford-try it. Grrrrrr.. Niceeeeee..
Good luck


----------



## Asteger

What better than a response from Mr Awasedo himself! Nice one, AV



jaknil said:


> Is it possible to say that eg. ohira suita is different than other types of ohira? I belive the suita strata is the lowest, so that could lead to that it is also the hardest layer. Maxim is refering only to hardness (eg. lv 4) as the particel size seems to be a result of this. Have I understood this correct? That would mean that the suitas are generally harder and finer than other ohiras.



Yes, different of course. The main/obvious thing you'll notice is the speed and also the lines and greater inconsistency with the suita, unless of course you've got good suita. Yes, I've noticed the suita will be a bit harder and finer, a bit, but I also have a non-suita tomae that is quite hard and fine, I think as fine as any O suita.



jaknil said:


> The Ohira would be finer and leave a more polished edge than the Takashima i understand.



Yes, I think so. Def in my experience. Andrey'd be the one to ask as he'll have tried many more of this type than 99.9% of humanity, and luckily he's spoken.



jaknil said:


> The Chu Nagura is in the same grit range as the Takashima, so these two will compare (except form the feeling during the sharpening?)
> Or not?



As AV's said, the Chu's are very different as stones. Yes, maybe coarser but not that far off. Higher medium. They're not layered Kyoto gyotogi, though, and are used very differently. You wouldn't want this as a final stone. It's more of a kind of eraser in my mind if you're using a progression and trying to get rid of scratches before moving on. Kind of feels like an eraser too, but very nice looking stones. 'Chu' can mean 'middle' in Japanese if that helps with perspective (I should check the kanji to see it's the same, not another with the same pronunciation, but I'll leave it there). 3rd or 4th stone in the sword progression (can google that, too; sorry not as much stone talk these days, so my memory's dimming).


----------



## jklip13

Just bought my first piece of furniture for my new apartment




Got my priorities straight


----------



## schanop

That's a nice idea, jklip13. like it.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

Great idea, Jon!


----------



## bennyprofane

jklip13 said:


> I'm in love with Suita, IMO Good suita will always be better, faster and more versatile than good Tomae, but bad suita are a lot more common than bad tomae.



How to discern good from bad suita? Is it just the speed?


----------



## bennyprofane

To be more specific, I mean Ohira Suita.


----------



## jklip13

bennyprofane said:


> To be more specific, I mean Ohira Suita.



There are a lot of hard Suita out there that don't release slurry readily and don't cut quickly. There are also plenty that release too readily, often many will break down around the Su from the pressure of the blade and produce little crumbly bits that scratch everything up (you can usually hear this happen). Because Suita are so sought after, many also get sold with toxic lines or inclusions running through them. When they're good, they're great though


----------



## jklip13

I also want to add that that's is just in my limited experience with kitchen knives and razors, different characteristics might be sought after or alternately not problematic for other tools.


----------



## bennyprofane

What does "release too readily" mean?


----------



## chinacats

bennyprofane said:


> What does "release too readily" mean?



Doesn't release too readily means the stone will last forever but won't do any work...in other words, release the particles from what on synthetics would be called the matrix...which then supposedly break and help to sharpen the knife. Releases readily makes for easier sharpening and likely would be considered a softer stone that would wear quicker (though with naturals they will still last a very long time).

As a side note, I say supposedly because while this is what people say happens with natties, according to those who have followed this microscopically, this may be bs...I'm guessing there is 'some' truth to it...


----------



## Badgertooth

The last motherload from Japan


----------



## krx927

Wau, that indeed is motherload.
Can you write which is which?


----------



## Badgertooth

From bottom left snaking its way up to top right
Ikarashi
Natsuya
Aoto
Aizu
Junzo Mikawa Nagura
Takashima
Aiiwatani 
Okudo Iromono 
Nakayama aka pin 1
Nakayama aka pin 2
Uchigumori
Narutaki


----------



## cheflivengood

Hows your uchigumori?


----------



## Andrey V

Badgertooth said:


> From bottom left snaking its way up to top right
> Ikarashi
> Natsuya
> Aoto
> Aizu
> Junzo Mikawa Nagura
> Takashima
> Aiiwatani
> Okudo Iromono
> Nakayama aka pin 1
> Nakayama aka pin 2
> Uchigumori
> Narutaki



WOW, looks almost like a sword sharpening set.


----------



## Badgertooth

cheflivengood said:


> Hows your uchigumori?



It's really nice. I didn't know what to expect from it as a sharpening medium outside of its polishing properties but it actually leaves an incredible working edge with a good amount of bite.

I noodled some initial thoughts here

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php?t=28845


----------



## Badgertooth

Andrey V said:


> WOW, looks almost like a sword sharpening set.



Very, very observant Andrey. The treasure hunt I sent my friend on with his trip to Japan was with a very specific list of sword stones and a mandate for other stones of interesting colours. I had a theory how they might behave that has mostly held true. So Yamashita thought they might be too soft as the HRC of swords is mid 50s but I have not found one of these is unsuitable for kitchen knives. I'd argue that the softer ones are suitable precisely because of their softness. I have found no lack of abrasion or unintended rounding and convexing of my edges either. Some are hard for their 'species' - the Aizu is harder than my other one, the Takashima koppa is really hard, the okudo is harder than I thought it would be but not out of keeping with okudo, the Narutaki is a 8.5 - 9 out of 10.


----------



## foody518

Badgertooth said:


> The last motherload from Japan



Holyyyyy


----------



## Andrey V

Badgertooth said:


> Very, very observant Andrey. The treasure hunt I sent my friend on with his trip to Japan was with a very specific list of sword stones and a mandate for other stones of interesting colours. I had a theory how they might behave that has mostly held true. So Yamashita thought they might be too soft as the HRC of swords is mid 50s but I have not found one of these is unsuitable for kitchen knives. I'd argue that the softer ones are suitable precisely because of their softness. I have avefound no lack of abrasion or unintended rounding and convexing of my edges either. Some are hard for their 'species' - the Aizu is harder than my other one, the Takashima koppa is really hard, the okudo is harder than I thought it would be but not out of keeping with okudo, the Narutaki is a 8.5 - 9 out of 10.



Cool [emoji106]&#127995; 
I have them all + varieties + missing in the full progression. 
They really can be used for many tasks : swords, knives, tools. 
The hard Aizu is good for stainless, some other stones work better with carbons. 
When you have many stones you can really choose your perfect set up for specific task. 
Congrats! [emoji323]&#127870;[emoji324][emoji322] 
Glad for you! 
BTW- all my Okudos are hard, but work well on harder steels, on sables/ swords as well. Really great. Though require good skills. The harder- the more. 
I like it.
And you have a beautiful Natsuya ... uffffff


----------



## Badgertooth

I experimented a little bit with Natsuya and lapped it for some slurry then did some polishing work on yanagiba with very pleasing results. One of the best contrast levels I have achieved and very uniform scratch pattern. I can't believe these aren't more highly regarded.


----------



## cheflivengood

Badgertooth said:


> I experimented a little bit with Natsuya and lapped it for some slurry then did some polishing work on yanagiba with very pleasing results. One of the best contrast levels I have achieved and very uniform scratch pattern. I can't believe these aren't more highly regarded.



where would you put it in a grit range?


----------



## Badgertooth

cheflivengood said:


> where would you put it in a grit range?



Good question. 1 up to 1.5k with working the slurry. I get a decent arm-hair shave. Some people have Natsuya as a sub 1000 stone but the edge I get and feedback off the stone just doesn't feel that coarse to me.


----------



## Asteger

Badgertooth said:


> I experimented a little bit with Natsuya and lapped it for some slurry then did some polishing work on yanagiba with very pleasing results. One of the best contrast levels I have achieved and very uniform scratch pattern. I can't believe these aren't more highly regarded.



Did someone say 'Natsuya'!? Hey guys...

I think they are quite rare, which should have something do with it. Also not so, so expensive because they're not layered finishers of course, and people to their own detriment might be drawn to the pricier stones and overlook the more moderate ones. But - trying to remember... oh, yes - considering that they were mined well over 100 years ago, from what I've found, and the former mine now lies below a major highway, in a collector-sense they're pretty interesting. Enjoyable to use, and very useful slurry for touch ups, etc.



cheflivengood said:


> where would you put it in a grit range?



They've got a big range, I'd say. Sub 1k to start and probably beyond that finish. I've thought before that they seem like 6-800 at first. 7- or 800 to be safe? The slurry has a big range.


----------



## Badgertooth

Asteger said:


> Did someone say 'Natsuya'!? Hey guys...



He lives!! Always good to have your thought @asteger. Hope the move isn't causing too much anxiety.


----------



## panda

My natsuya starts 600 and finishes like 1200. The slurry breaks down really fast so I rinse often to keep getting aggressive grit.


----------



## Badgertooth

Mine releases just about zero slurry without some lapping on a worn out DMT.


----------



## panda

Yes, gotta use slurry stone.


----------



## Badgertooth

Is there a natural you'd recommend as a Natsuya slurry stone?


----------



## panda

Sorry, I just use atoma 140, I have zero patience.


----------



## Badgertooth

Bolek said:


> no. on the box : front : "Asagi" (old label) on the back (pencil)"NAKAYAMA-ASAGI 1100gr" and on a label (modern) on the stone :"Asagi (Bouku)"
> No kanji.



I've just seen this but it stuck in my head because I remember thinking to myself "can asagi be soft?" 

Turns out they can, if they are Boku Asagi

https://toshoknifearts.com/shop/natural-stones/boku-asagi-soft-asagi


----------



## panda

Also, try soaking it for 30minutes. Mine is not sealed and it may crack at some point but it's so substantial brick i don't think it's much of a risk soaking since I air dry in an air conditioned room.


----------



## Badgertooth

Badgertooth said:


> I've just seen this but it stuck in my head because I remember thinking to myself "can asagi be soft?"
> 
> Turns out they can, if they are Boku Asagi
> 
> https://toshoknifearts.com/shop/natural-stones/boku-asagi-soft-asagi



Reading a little more, it looks it's a wholesaler along the lines of Imanishi that has, among many others, asagis from Yaginoshima. My softer yaginoshima is what prompted my initial research into softer asagis.


----------



## Badgertooth

panda said:


> Also, try soaking it for 30minutes. Mine is not sealed and it may crack at some point but it's so substantial brick i don't think it's much of a risk soaking since I air dry in an air conditioned room.



I will try that, thanks


----------



## Asteger

Careful, Natsuya crack easily when drying. However, seems this happens when you first wet them, and you'll be progressively a lot safer after. 

I use Atoma too. Yae-Botan is also good. 

Used to have a Natsuya tomonagura I cut from a split stone but gave away, and of course that was great. Will have to cut a new one from my broken stone (need to send one to Brasilia, as well). The stone dust from cutting is great for polishing


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Careful, Natsuya crack easily when drying. However, seems this happens when you first wet them, and you'll be progressively a lot safer after.
> 
> I use Atoma too. Yae-Botan is also good.
> 
> Used to have a Natsuya tomonagura I cut from a split stone but gave away, and of course that was great. Will have to cut a new one from my broken stone (need to send one to Brasilia, as well). The stone dust from cutting is great for polishing



I'm very lucky to possess a very generous Natsuya, it works well on it's own. 1000 at max
Though 600 to start ranking. Very cool slurry, very helpful for rough polishing, rust removing etc. 
I have a nice big Tomo as well, so i'm very well equipped reg Natsuya 
Having tried ab 5 -6 different ones i saw only 1 which was the most beautiful but the slowest as well. It would work then with Atoma or DMT.


----------



## Asteger

Andrey V said:


> I'm very lucky to possess a very generous Natsuya, it works well on it's own. 1000 at max
> Though 600 to start ranking. Very cool slurry, very helpful for rough polishing, rust removing etc.
> I have a nice big Tomo as well, so i'm very well equipped reg Natsuya
> Having tried ab 5 -6 different ones i saw only 1 which was the most beautiful but the slowest as well. It would work then with Atoma or DMT.



Got one? You kept this secret! Happy you agree on the properties. 

Sometimes with stones it feels there are few out there who have the same thing or the same experience, especially with unusual stones, so glad to hear similar positives


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

panda said:


> My natsuya starts 600 and finishes like 1200. The slurry breaks down really fast so I rinse often to keep getting aggressive grit.



Hi Panda, is your Natsuya from JNS? I have two Natsuyas that seem to be completely different. One is harder and finer. Hard to get some slurry unless an atoma is used; the JNS one is coarser, much softer and thirsty too. It relases a good amount of slurry and it is slower than JNS' Numata.

@Asteger: Welcome back!


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Got one? You kept this secret! Happy you agree on the properties.
> 
> Sometimes with stones it feels there are few out there who have the same thing or the same experience, especially with unusual stones, so glad to hear similar positives



I've got many others as well[emoji41]. 
Just kept away for a while. 
So my Tennen Toishi House has become bigger as well.


----------



## panda

No, got mine from vinster. It is a hard stone, but also thirsty. I want to try numata now.


----------



## Andrey V

panda said:


> No, got mine from vinster. It is a hard stone, but also thirsty. I want to try numata now.



Numata is quite cool as well. The feeling is different, but close in grit to Natsuya. 
Bit higher. I find it really interesting. 
There is a challenge to find some really good coarse naturals, it's easier to get finer stones. 
I keep on thinking the coarse synthetic does the job better / quicker( though i hate to use it, dirty nails after), though the feelings the Jnats offer are different..


----------



## Asteger

I haven't tried a Numata from JNS. (He didn't ever carry them until very recently recently.) There are different types of Numata, at least 2 I think, although I'm not sure on the details. My impression was what I saw on JNS was a courser kind which I haven't tried. I like the 'Hyotan' type which are well-regarded, more expensive, and are at least 1k maybe 2k, a peg up the progression from Natsuya and bit below Aizu. I think of Natsuya as on the coarsest end of the medium stone range (there's a Japanese name for this; sorry, forget). Stones like Omura (traditional from Kyushu, or the new Wakayama-mined ones sold a bit more recently by JNS) would be the real 'coarse' type.



Marcelo Amaral said:


> @Asteger: Welcome back!



Bom dia, Marcelinho


----------



## aboynamedsuita

I kinda regret not getting the JNS natsuya to use as a pre-aoto stone when I had the chance back in August. Any other worthy pre-aoto jnats worth considering that haven't already been mentioned?


----------



## panda

Someone posted an iyoto in an earlier thread.


----------



## vinster

panda said:


> No, got mine from vinster. It is a hard stone, but also thirsty. I want to try numata now.



Gosh. It's been nearly 3 years since my third kid was born and I haven't played much with my stones in that time. I remember being underwhelmed by the handful of Natsuya's that I tried. I probably have a couple left. but they were more coarse and slower than some of the bluish or greenish stones that I had. I can't even remember the names anymore. Should have taken some notes... but I think they included numata, ikarashi, iyo, and aizu.


----------



## panda

Welcome back Vinnie! I picked up an aizu from asteger and have been completely blown away by that stone.


----------



## Asteger

vinster said:


> Gosh. It's been nearly 3 years since my third kid was born and I haven't played much with my stones in that time. I remember being underwhelmed by the handful of Natsuya's that I tried. I probably have a couple left. but they were more coarse and slower than some of the bluish or greenish stones that I had. I can't even remember the names anymore. Should have taken some notes... but I think they included numata, ikarashi, iyo, and aizu.



Back from the dead! 

Know what you mean - I haven't done much stone stuff in just a few months, and feel I have to think a bit to remember some things.

I remember you getting that Natsuya and soon selling to Panda, Panda enjoying it, and I always thought it was an example of how you can have good stones but good users can have different reactions to them. I don't remember you getting more than one. Anyway, should have given it more time. They vary a bit, but I think slurry will come on wide bevels and more easily with the softer ones. Depending on the stone, the speed is pretty good, but not if you're a synth express burr-forming fiend. Very nice feel.



tjangula said:


> I kinda regret not getting the JNS natsuya to use as a pre-aoto stone when I had the chance back in August. Any other worthy pre-aoto jnats worth considering that haven't already been mentioned?



Agree with Panda that Iyoto is an option, although it seems there are variety out there. The classic one - the original 'binsui' I think, not to be confused with the more recent Amakusa - is pretty hard and white with some specks, and it should be a bit below the normal aoto range - well, based on the good one I have. JNS had one once, 3 years ago maybe, and I bought it. Of course, there are a variety of aoto too, so things depend. I've got another candidate, a medium Haguro, a really obscure stone - mined by Mt Fuji, unusual - which I like a lot in this area, but I don't think it's possible to get another.


----------



## vinster

Asteger said:


> Back from the dead!
> 
> Know what you mean - I haven't done much stone stuff in just a few months, and feel I have to think a bit to remember some things.
> 
> I remember you getting that Natsuya and soon selling to Panda, Panda enjoying it, and I always thought it was an example of how you can have good stones but good users can have different reactions to them. I don't remember you getting more than one. Anyway, should have given it more time. They vary a bit, but I think slurry will come on wide bevels and more easily with the softer ones. Depending on the stone, the speed is pretty good, but not if you're a synth express burr-forming fiend. Very nice feel.



It seems like you might know my collection better than I do at this point :lol2:

A bit of a stretch to say "back", but the itch hit me again and I started to get a few stones ordered from Japan. Finishers of course... Let's see how they turn out.


----------



## niwaki-boy

Hi all! I'm going to post here first cause I just read the entire jnat thread and want to thanks the recurring characters.. Asteger.. Andrey V.. vinster.. coqaVin.. panda and all the rest!! Thanks! It was a small piece of Hakka that revealed the rabbit hole to me a couple of years ago but so much info to digest kinda of anesthesisized me. Earlier this year I bought one of those toma naguras extra (really is extra) and a Aiiwatani and am waiting for Atagoyama suita that Maksim is sending now
Anyway thanks for a great read guys!

-porter


----------



## aboynamedsuita

Congrats on making it thru the thread, and welcome!


----------



## niwaki-boy

tjangula said:


> Congrats on making it thru the thread, and welcome!



Thanks! My head:dazed:


----------



## Asteger

Wow, impressive. I could never read all that. Where is 'PNW' by the way?

Also look into the many places out there with naturals info for razor users. Even tools, maybe, though I haven't checked lately... I think in the past there used to be more crossover with the razor crowd, at least with the people who write here or used to. Knife users will get into their polishing which isn't part of razor use, but on the other hand I think they have more reason to sharpen often and get to know the limits of some fine-fine stones. Even if it has to be interpreted somewhat and there are different requirements, I'm sure lots of the know-how seen here leads back to earlier discoveries by the razor nuts

Sword sharpening too...


----------



## niwaki-boy

Hi Asteger, thanks for info and yeah you got that part about the razor nuts right! That makes some sense that knowledge would have bled from them to knife sharpening. 
PNW= pacific northwest


----------



## vinster

After a long hibernation I got out some of my stones this week and reacquainted myself with some old favorites. Here's a group shot. A few are missing but this is nearly all of them.


----------



## Badgertooth

Mic drop


----------



## panda

vin, which are your top 3 fav?


----------



## Asteger

Looks like even more arranged out on the bricks outside.

3 favs? I can guess 2, that ohira and shobu


----------



## niwaki-boy

vinster said:


> After a long hibernation I got out some of my stones this week and reacquainted myself with some old favorites. Here's a group shot. A few are missing but this is nearly all of them.



Oh crap:bigeek:.. I knew I put you in my thank you list for a reason! 

Damn a lama ding dong:jumping3::jumping3::jumping3:

I like pictures like that a lot!


----------



## vinster

Asteger said:


> 3 favs? I can guess 2, that ohira and shobu





panda said:


> vin, which are your top 3 fav?



No Fair. Asteger has insider information. Picking 3 is hard. I think I could maybe do 5... But I should preface by saying that I'm just a home cook so my knives don't get a ton of use. I'm more interested in jnats for the finish they leave. I can get a sharp enough edge on all the stones here.

So if I had to cull the list to just 3 stones to use for eternity I would keep one of the bottom 3 (aizu, numata, iyo), a hakka, and that red shobu on the third row. But my hakka wouldn't be any of the pictured here. I have a small yellow koppa sized stone that started me down the jnat rabbit hole and it's still my favorite.

If I had a hard-on for finishers (which I do), I'd probably keep one of the ohiras on the top row, the white and rust stone far right on the second row, and the red shobu.

If simply going by looks, I'd keep the maruichi narutake stone on the second row that looks like a taro, the 4th ohira renge suita on the top row, and the odd shape orange okudo towards the bottom.

That red shobu is an amazing stone. It's super fine, but lets out a good amount of mud and leaves a really nice finish with a dark cladding and nearly mirror core steel.

These days I'm picking up stones based on looks more than anything else.


----------



## CB1968

Nice haul of stones Vinster!!


----------



## Andrey V

Asteger said:


> Wow, impressive. I could never read all that. Where is 'PNW' by the way?
> 
> Also look into the many places out there with naturals info for razor users. Even tools, maybe, though I haven't checked lately... I think in the past there used to be more crossover with the razor crowd, at least with the people who write here or used to. Knife users will get into their polishing which isn't part of razor use, but on the other hand I think they have more reason to sharpen often and get to know the limits of some fine-fine stones. Even if it has to be interpreted somewhat and there are different requirements, I'm sure lots of the know-how seen here leads back to earlier discoveries by the razor nuts
> 
> Sword sharpening too...



Jumped a while ago into all these worlds: swords, tools, fine razors. 
Have sharpened a good bunch of . 
What can i say: boys, every new experience will add more understanding to the previous one. 
When sharpening razors ( especially when fixing heavy damaged ones) gives you extra fineness in fingers, swords/ sables etc- it teaches you how to work on a big surface with same control, tools- again good controls over small objects, especially if you use good nomi, kanna etc. 
You extend horizons, really, because often you use " knife- useless " stones and vice versa. 
I like to achieve same high mirror polish on swords by hand- that's the real challenge. So easy to mess it up.. 
some other stones come in question: Ozuku, Wakasa, many Asagi, Okudo and Shinden play more important roles. 
The shape of the stone may change as well, from straight for razors to curved for swords. 
Many differences, many similarities.


----------



## niwaki-boy

Andrey V said:


> Jumped a while ago into all these worlds: swords, tools, fine razors.
> Have sharpened a good bunch of .
> What can i say: boys, every new experience will add more understanding to the previous one.
> When sharpening razors ( especially when fixing heavy damaged ones) gives you extra fineness in fingers, swords/ sables etc- it teaches you how to work on a big surface with same control, tools- again good controls over small objects, especially if you use good nomi, kanna etc.
> You extend horizons, really, because often you use " knife- useless " stones and vice versa.
> I like to achieve same high mirror polish on swords by hand- that's the real challenge. So easy to mess it up..
> some other stones come in question: Ozuku, Wakasa, many Asagi, Okudo and Shinden play more important roles.
> The shape of the stone may change as well, from straight for razors to curved for swords.
> Many differences, many similarities.



Yes thanks Andrey V, you continue to bring lots to the jnat table and enhance my very new jnat mind. Tools yes! Razors and swords maybe some day. Got to get few more stones first :biggrin:


----------



## Andrey V

niwaki-boy said:


> Yes thanks Andrey V, you continue to bring lots to the jnat table and enhance my very new jnat mind. Tools yes! Razors and swords maybe some day. Got to get few more stones first :biggrin:



Welcome!
Should you have any questions- just ask  [emoji106]&#127995;[emoji120]&#127995;. 
Btw- it's funny, but i don't use razors myself. I do it for my friends. I helped them to get great razors, now i improve their skills, though mostly fix damaged blades [emoji23][emoji23].


----------



## niwaki-boy

Andrey V said:


> Welcome!
> Should you have any questions- just ask  [emoji106]&#127995;[emoji120]&#127995;.
> Btw- it's funny, but i don't use razors myself. I do it for my friends. I helped them to get great razors, now i improve their skills, though mostly fix damaged blades [emoji23][emoji23].



Thanks!

Questions yes there will be those .. all help is appreciated :doublethumbsup:

Ha funny how things work! Actually did a razor (damaged) for a friend once not good quality but turned out ok...:whistling: ish

:beer: cheers 
-porter


----------



## Krassi

:IMOK:

Holy ...! @vinster thats a real collection of doom! 

And how could i forget about the j-nat club here.. gotta read all new stuff here i missed.
i got most i my knowledge from this thread here and then went berserk with buying j-nats 

i also just go by looks and color if i am looking for new ones.. well the location/mine narrows down what you can expect and then its just listening to my belly and not my brain )

Too bad that i also started with coarse and medium stones and should now pull the handbreak  
Also a greenish/yellow like Aizu is one of my favorites followed by a ohira uchi, and Ohira Suitas.

Cant wait to get a green Ikarashi soon and some other stuff (gigantic omura and Aiiwatani Karasu... i hope thats it.. but i also quit smoking so often and started again and.. if i see a bricksize cheap feral ohira suita with sick renge, than i have to give it a home :thumbsup

Seeya Daniel


----------



## BlueSteel

vinster said:


> No Fair. Asteger has insider information. Picking 3 is hard. I think I could maybe do 5... But I should preface by saying that I'm just a home cook so my knives don't get a ton of use. I'm more interested in jnats for the finish they leave. I can get a sharp enough edge on all the stones here.
> 
> So if I had to cull the list to just 3 stones to use for eternity I would keep one of the bottom 3 (aizu, numata, iyo), a hakka, and that red shobu on the third row. But my hakka wouldn't be any of the pictured here. I have a small yellow koppa sized stone that started me down the jnat rabbit hole and it's still my favorite.
> 
> If I had a hard-on for finishers (which I do), I'd probably keep one of the ohiras on the top row, the white and rust stone far right on the second row, and the red shobu.
> 
> If simply going by looks, I'd keep the maruichi narutake stone on the second row that looks like a taro, the 4th ohira renge suita on the top row, and the odd shape orange okudo towards the bottom.
> 
> That red shobu is an amazing stone. It's super fine, but lets out a good amount of mud and leaves a really nice finish with a dark cladding and nearly mirror core steel.
> 
> These days I'm picking up stones based on looks more than anything else.



To your collection...WOW! Much respect.

I feel like I must have hit it lucky...I am a beginner, and so far only bought three stones - but you mentioned all 3 of them as favorites of yours (numata, hakka, and shobu).

My shobu is not a red one - it is a green tomae. I take it your red one is a tomae also?

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## tgfencer

Got these in a week or two ago, an ohira suita and uchimugori from Shinichi. The ohira does have some lines but I can only feel part of the long one in one small spot, yet it doesn't leave any scratches while sharpening so I'm pleased.








Uchi:


----------



## Badgertooth

Prepare to be very happy


----------



## Krassi

Yeah! the happiness will hurt .. i would lap the Ohira a bit and try to laquer it because of the crack!
i guess after 1-2mm it will be flat like flat Eric on the hole stone, but anything like this is no problem during sharpening.

The renge linepattern looks like the Nasdaq index )

Seeya,daniel


----------



## tgfencer

Krassi said:


> Yeah! the happiness will hurt .. i would lap the Ohira a bit and try to laquer it because of the crack!
> i guess after 1-2mm it will be flat like flat Eric on the hole stone, but anything like this is no problem during sharpening.



Yeah I was considering lapping it to smooth out that one line and definitely plan on lacquering it. I believe it developed that small crack on the right side edge during shipping. Will probably try Badgertooth's suggestion of spray-on marine grade lacquer, since I don't have much interest screwing around with cashew.


----------



## Andrey V

tgfencer said:


> Yeah I was considering lapping it to smooth out that one line and definitely plan on lacquering it. I believe it developed that small crack on the right side edge during shipping. Will probably try Badgertooth's suggestion of spray-on marine grade lacquer, since I don't have much interest screwing around with cashew.



No need of cashew indeed. After years of practicing i must admit..any easy go laquer is ok. Though i used to use myself only natural ones( shellac & urushi)
Even acrylic one is ok. 
What about Totorya stone? The middle lines- are they toxic? Do you feel them?
And yes- it definitely should be lapped/ prepared. The corners are too sharp, after all you have to remove the upper layer which absorbs a lot of dust etc. 
[emoji120]&#127995;


----------



## tgfencer

Yeah I havent used them besides an initial short test on a cheap zakuri when i first got them because I wanted to wait til I had time to lap and lacquer them. Its on the to-do list..

I'm unfamiliar with the term Totorya, but if you're talking about the lines on the uchimugori then no, Watanabe said they weren't toxic and from initial impression I believe him and I can't feel them. I will however, probably be lapping it down to see if I can get below them.

As for the ohira, I can feel a really little bit, but they left no scratches, so hopefully lapping with smooth them out properly.


----------



## tgfencer

And thanks for the advice fellas! Also, I hope someone on here got that Hakka iromono from JapanTool today. I was in checkout with it before it sold...


----------



## cenc

Hey KKF,

Finally got a decent bit of light with all of this rain going on. Been wanting to take a family photo of these stones for a while. Will be talking about them more and editing this post as i take some better pictures.







Some individual close-ups!


----------



## Badgertooth

cenc said:


> Hey KKF,
> 
> Finally got a decent bit of light with all of this rain going on. Been wanting to take a family photo of these stones for a while. Will be talking about them more and editing this post as i take some better pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some individual close-ups!



Me likey. What are the first two closeup stones? Second looks like a piece of mizukihara


----------



## cenc

I am not sure of the mine origin of this first stone. I do enjoy this one for it's looks: Orange look with yellow slurry. It builds up it's slurry pretty quickly, which makes me think it is a soft stone. However, it feels very hard when i sharpen on it and doesn't cut very quickly. It puts a really really nice edge on my Takeda! Notice the karasu coming through along the bottom.. So cool.

The second individual pic is an Ohira "Gokujo". This is my favorite stone. Very beautiful with a kind of suminagashi look. It is quite hard and puts a very close mirror edge on my monosteel white #2 ashi hamono. Can put a mirror edge on my Takeda Nakiri, and preserves the darkness of the jigane.

It has changed a lot since i first got it! Some pink renge has started to pop up in the top corner! This is one of the many reasons I am fascinated by natural whetstones..


----------



## Badgertooth

Family photo of all the kids I could find


----------



## Krassi

I like Family Photos! )
Wow .. lots of nice Stones from Bagder and cenc!!
Ill wait for some more to come and then its time for a new photo


----------



## aboynamedsuita

You have almost as many jnats as I have years on this planet


----------



## foody518

Badgertooth said:


> Family photo of all the kids I could find



Niiiiiice


----------



## Badgertooth

tjangula said:


> You have almost as many jnats as I have years on this planet



I think that would make us a very similar age.


----------



## tgfencer

Current group photo. Sorry for the fuzziness, my apartment has terrible lighting.

Top Row L-R: Aisu, Ikarashi, Aoto, Hideriyama, Uchimugori
Bottom Row L-R: Okudo suita koppa, Ohira suita black renge (MM), ohira suita (Watanabe), ohira suita, ohira aka renge suita, ohira awasedo, shobu iromono, shinden awasedo.


----------



## Badgertooth

You have been a good boy for Santa. Damn.


----------



## foody518

^ looks lovely!


----------



## tgfencer

Thanks guys. Out of curiosity, has anybody tried using sandpaper to gradually round off and lap the edges/corner of jnats? I struggle with my diamond plate to remove a sharp edge without just creating another. Maybe I just need to get better at it though, but I'm open to alternative suggestion too.


----------



## panda

Make a bevel, and then another bevel on each corner of that bevel. After that do one curving motion hitting all edges, back and forth to create smooth edge. Like sanding down edges of wood.


----------



## tgfencer

Makes sense, figured it was down to my technique. Ill give it a whirl.


----------



## Vancouverguy

New stones in the collection!
Brown Saeki + Izumo nagura from Asteger, and a Nakayama Maruka Aisa( Probably a spelling mistake for something...This was sold to me by Ai and Om, a sister shop of Tosho ) 

The Nakayama is super hard, barely raises any slurry with a tomo nagura / Tsushima nagura.


----------



## Krassi

tgfencer said:


> Thanks guys. Out of curiosity, has anybody tried using sandpaper to gradually round off and lap the edges/corner of jnats? I struggle with my diamond plate to remove a sharp edge without just creating another. Maybe I just need to get better at it though, but I'm open to alternative suggestion too.



Hiho!

Well what works very good and without the danger of getting particles from the sandpaper on the stone are micromesh pads. I use a 1500 Pad and you also get jnat powder on the Micromesh pad  win/win
It is much more controllable.. i also had some near heart attack situation when you accidentally slam into the stone with that heavy big diamond plate.
I first use a diamond plate for making the edge and then mm pad action.

i can make super smooth edges, and round the corners that way.


----------



## Marek07

Pardon a newbie question: What is micro mesh? I'm guessing it's like wet and dry sandpaper but in finer grits.


----------



## Krassi

Hi!
Well it is actually like sandpaper, but does not wear down and it can be on a papersheet or on a soft pad.
i use my 1500 and 4000 Pad for over 2 Years and they still work like a charm.
You can even use them for sharpening (put a sheet on a soft Mousepad and you can sharpen lowbudget with this)


----------



## chinacats

Might be better to post this in a different subforum...this is Maxim's place...


----------



## tgfencer

Fair enough. Here's a mizukihara and an okudo suita I just got in. For reference, the okudo is 205x75x34.


----------



## Badgertooth

That suita looks super clean!! You had more a chance to play with the mizukihara?


----------



## tgfencer

Not yet sadly, work has been busy the past week, but I'm going to try your suggestion when I do. Yeah, the okudo is very clean aside from the two slight depressions in the bottom left corner and has some light renge which didn't really come out in the photo.


----------



## riba

My very modest new stone, a Mizuhikara suita (from MM)



.

It is a budget stone (MAX 150mmx87mmx25mm), but I am pretty impressed with how quick it kicks up swarf and the finish.
(I only have a very hard Aoto from Kameoka, oohira tomae and JNS Shoubudani type 100 to compare).


----------



## tgfencer

Nice pickup. That's a decent size and a good width, which to me is the most important of the dimensions. Plus when the price is right, who can complain! Enjoy.


----------



## Mucho Bocho

OK I'm lm still learning a lot about Naturals too and have amassed a small collection but this stone looks intimidating. Are you going to prepare it or just go at it? If you could post some pics of the stone and the edge after use. Would be most helpful.

My take on stones is that there is a looooot of confusion and misconception out there, really hocus pocus. Because each stone is slightly different with infinite variations, its impossible to know how it will perform for you.

Also, your sharpening technique and steel to be sharpened will change the behavior of different stones. Naguras. OM MY. 

I will say that I do believe that I can produce the sharpest longest lasting edge on them.

I also think that if you have good sharpening technique, and you get a clean rock from someone that know something about them, you'll be able to get good or great edges. Don't be afraid, just get something and get cracking. 



riba said:


> My very modest new stone, a Mizuhikara suita (from MM)
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> It is a budget stone (MAX 150mmx87mmx25mm), but I am pretty impressed with how quick it kicks up swarf and the finish.
> (I only have a very hard Aoto from Kameoka, oohira tomae and JNS Shoubudani type 100 to compare).


----------



## riba

Mucho Bocho said:


> OK I'm lm still learning a lot about Naturals too and have amassed a small collection but this stone looks intimidating. Are you going to prepare it or just go at it? If you could post some pics of the stone and the edge after use. Would be most helpful.
> 
> My take on stones is that there is a looooot of confusion and misconception out there, really hocus pocus. Because each stone is slightly different with infinite variations, its impossible to know how it will perform for you.
> 
> Also, your sharpening technique and steel to be sharpened will change the behavior of different stones. Naguras. OM MY.
> 
> I will say that I do believe that I can produce the sharpest longest lasting edge on them.
> 
> I also think that if you have good sharpening technique, and you get a clean rock from someone that know something about them, you'll be able to get good or great edges. Don't be afraid, just get something and get cracking.



I am under the impression that I don't need to do much to the surface (but any suggestions are welcome here -- read: newbie). The stone itself is flat (and the edges were chambered). I am considering putting some nail polish on the sides to protect it. It does have some holes in the surface, but fortunately enough I don't feel them at all while sharpening. (In what way does it look intimidating?).

I started my JNAT journey with my razorhone (a shoubudani type 100) but didn't manage to get a nice edge. After I bought a pretty hard aoto (8.5 according AframesTokyo) I suddenly managed to get some results with my shoubudani too. Funny how that sometimes works. (the aoto gives a pretty nice gyuto edge btw).
Some time later I bought a Oohira tomae (2nd hand, originally from JNS), but I guess my technique is still insufficient as the edge gets less sharp when I use it 
With all the recent JNAT activity on the forum, I couldn't restrain myself and bought this Mizuhikara. Must say I am pretty impressed how easy it is to use and how nice (contrasty) the polish is (along with a nice edge).
I will soon make some pics of the stone in use and of the resulting polish 

I am making this journey at a leisurely pace, as my 3YO daughter takes up most of my free time (and budget  hehehe )


----------



## tgfencer

I'd lacquer the sides with your choice of protective agent (nail polish is fine) just for peace of mind and to protect your investment, but otherwise, as long as there are no problem spots on the surface that cause you issues while sharpening and you said the edges are fine, so it sounds like its good to go. Little holes aren't uncommon. Sometimes they are natural or result from where the dealer has dug out a small bit of inclusion. I've had several stones that started with a small hole or depression that were subsequently removed with sharpening and lapping, no big deal. Common sense is usually enough to tell you when something might be an issue.


----------



## Mute-on

My advice from Maxim was to prepare by flattening with an Atoma 140 (or equivalent) to both clean the surface from decades of absorbed grime and contaminants, and ensure it is dead flat. Round over the edges a bit more while you are at it. After that, I use a nagura to recondition the surface (that is now a little cut up from the Atoma), and then use.

If you use all parts of the stone when sharpening, including rotating the stone 180 degrees from time to time, you can maintain it with a nagura for a long while before it should need flattening again, if ever. 

Cheers

J


----------



## Andrey V

Mute-on said:


> My advice from Maxim was to prepare by flattening with an Atoma 140 (or equivalent) to both clean the surface from decades of absorbed grime and contaminants, and ensure it is dead flat. Round over the edges a bit more while you are at it. After that, I use a nagura to recondition the surface (that is now a little cut up from the Atoma), and then use.
> 
> If you use all parts of the stone when sharpening, including rotating the stone 180 degrees from time to time, you can maintain it with a nagura for a long while before it should need flattening again, if ever.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> J



Clear answer indeed. 
I was too lazy to write it. 100% correctly. 
Just a remark- having used many other i must admit that Atoma 140 is the best solution ever. 
- very effective 
- long lasting 
- affordable in comparison to others( DMT lapping stone, Shapton lapping diamond plate etc) 
Having an impressive collection of Tennen Toishi ( read: lapping/ flattening/ fixing for years) i decided to grab a new one Atoma 140 only a month ago). Still keeping the old one.. greedy greedy?? Not really ( though who knows[emoji23][emoji23][emoji41]). You can always use it to work on edges, to use it as a kinda Nagura after aggressive ( new) Atoma etc. 

Cheers


----------



## XooMG

Was curious so I finally ended up with one of these silly things.


----------



## TheCaptain

XooMG said:


> Was curious so I finally ended up with one of these silly things.




Oh my! :drool: NICE pickup! Mine is a baby compared to yours, but let us know what you think!


----------



## Badgertooth

That is some dense renge patterning!


----------



## tgfencer

Awesome looking stone, Sir XooMG. Where'd ya pick up that beauty from? Hope you enjoy it!


----------



## XooMG

TheCaptain said:


> Oh my! :drool: NICE pickup! Mine is a baby compared to yours, but let us know what you think!





Badgertooth said:


> That is some dense renge patterning!


Thanks. I am no expert on stones, so I doubt I will have meaningful opinions to share, but it looks pretty OK, I think.



tgfencer said:


> Awesome looking stone, Sir XooMG. Where'd ya pick up that beauty from? Hope you enjoy it!


Thanks. It was a local sale.


----------



## Badgertooth

Best lay some metal on it and get scraping. Despite your modesty, I look forward to seeing your handiwork.


----------



## brooksie967

Must be nice to have that stuff "locally". Canada is the absolute worst for knives and stones


----------



## khashy

brooksie967 said:


> Must be nice to have that stuff "locally". Canada is the absolute worst for knives and stones



I see your 'canada-is-bad-for-knives-stone' and I raise you 'UK-is-freqing-awful-for-knives-and-stones'


----------



## Badgertooth

Y'all wanna try living in New Zealand.


----------



## Badgertooth

Maruoyama yellow Suita 











Generic Honyama with a tamagoiro Kiita vibe








Some Suita action





Some shobou Iromono


----------



## XooMG

Cheers. I was feeling guilty about having too many stones.


----------



## TheCaptain

Badgertooth said:


> Y'all wanna try living in New Zealand.



*Snort* Says the stone meister himself, then goes to prove my point with his next post...


----------



## TheCaptain

XooMG said:


> Cheers. I was feeling guilty about having too many stones.



No such thing. I always seem to have at least 1-2 more stones than knives and I'm quite allright with that...


----------



## tgfencer

Ugh, you guys are killing me. I had just about managed to convince myself that I don't need more stones. Lovely maruoyama, Otto. A maruoyama suita has been top of my list for a long while.


----------



## Badgertooth

tgfencer said:


> Ugh, you guys are killing me. I had just about managed to convince myself that I don't need more stones. Lovely maruoyama, Otto. A maruoyama suita has been top of my list for a long while.



That maruoyama is as good as it gets. Prett tricky to get a hold of for an active mine. Their website is nearly permanently out of stock for smaller reasonably priced stones, Watanabe is tapped out, and they're never on BST.


----------



## tgfencer

Yeah tell me about it, finding something I can afford and also a decent size is difficult. I've had a few absolute beauties come on my radar but they've been way to pricey. Its top of my Japan trip wishlist, so hopefully I'll luck out during my visit this spring.


----------



## guari

TheCaptain said:


> *Snort* Says the stone meister himself, then goes to prove my point with his next post...



I laughed at this too.

May I ask something, are Jnats good for Aogami Super and R2, or only for simpler alloys? 

I'm always browsing these natural threads and I'm curious by the use of those. Not that I foresee committing (read spending) in jnats. Too much for our pockets at the moment. 

Thanks


----------



## dwalker

guari said:


> I laughed at this too.
> 
> May I ask something, are Jnats good for Aogami Super and R2, or only for simpler alloys?
> 
> I'm always browsing these natural threads and I'm curious by the use of those. Not that I foresee committing (read spending) in jnats. Too much for our pockets at the moment.
> 
> Thanks



I have a couple finishers that are great on AS. Dunno about R2.


----------



## GRoc

What is your j-nat of choice for a pm steel gyuto like the 240 Shiro Kamo R-2 ?
Now I am finishing on Chosera 3k and like that edge a lot.
Tried on the Khao Men from Miles but did not really like the edge it produced.


----------



## Doug

GRoc said:


> What is your j-nat of choice for a pm steel gyuto like the 240 Shiro Kamo R-2 ?
> Now I am finishing on Chosera 3k and like that edge a lot.
> Tried on the Khao Men from Miles but did not really like the edge it produced.



I have a 210 Shibata Kotetsu R-2 and like the edges I get off a Shiden Suita that I would place in the 4000 grit range. No experience with Shiro Kamo R-2 but if you are finishing an edge on a well formed bevel I believe many J-nats can effectively cut pm steel but not as fast as synthetics. Also most J-nat finishers will be finer then your Chosera 3k and would give you a more polished edge.


----------



## Marek07

GRoc said:


> What is your j-nat of choice for a pm steel gyuto like the 240 Shiro Kamo R-2 ?
> Now I am finishing on Chosera 3k and like that edge a lot.
> Tried on the Khao Men from Miles but did not really like the edge it produced.


:2cents:
I'm not very experienced at this but I've recently been happy with the results on R2 steels by finishing on a Yaginoshima. Seems to be even better when used with a Tsushima nagura. Still experimenting.


----------



## Badgertooth

Doug said:


> I have a 210 Shibata Kotetsu R-2 and like the edges I get off a Shiden Suita that I would place in the 4000 grit range. No experience with Shiro Kamo R-2 but if you are finishing an edge on a well formed bevel I believe many J-nats can effectively cut pm steel but not as fast as synthetics. Also most J-nat finishers will be finer then your Chosera 3k and would give you a more polished edge.



Exactly this. I find harder Suita and aggressive Kyoto finishers do the business on my kotetsu. Almost a pity it needs sharpening so infrequently


----------



## Krassi

Hiho!

Ao Super and SG2 works wonderful on jnats..well i also get the same Problem that it feels that i have more stones than knifes  

Oh by the way.. anybody got an idea what this could be?







its a soft type mudcanon, similar patterns than my red narutaki and makes instant thick creamy slurry.. color is very nice and it has sick patterns and stuff in it when its wet. It sucks in water like an alcohol addict vodka.really similar to my red narutaki.
it also makes a nice hazy finish.. not the typical high polishing i have with most stones. it is also very fast.. slurry changes color instantly. with 85mm wide and a very nice custom wooden socket its a really fun stone.

since my knifes are full of flatspot.. i guess i have to do the full 1k (ai1000) and steady progression to get them nice.

very cool stone @XooMG


----------



## TheCaptain

Aiiwatani or Hideriyama? Any chance we can see the mud?

I have the stones mentioned above and either could be a sibling to yours.

Lovely stone btw.


----------



## Krassi

Hiho!

Since i had an yellow Aiiwatani Koppa from Maxim it feels softer.. feels more chalk like than my harder suitas. they have a much smoother surface than this one.
here are much better pictures and slurry and also the red Narutaki next to it.

Mud is getting dark pretty fast and it makes a lot of mud after just some strokes with my atoma

*http://imgur.com/a/fLEli*

yeah i am amazed that i dondt have a clue what it can be  narutaki/nakayama but its very similar to my other soft Narutaki and has similar patterns.
It was a total russian roulette kamikaze auction buy but i dondt regret it


----------



## Badgertooth

It looks horrible Krassi. I can safely dispose of it if you post it to me


----------



## Krassi

Yeah i am sure you will 
More sick stuff will come in some weeks (7 stones.. i am totaly psycho and broke like hell now  )


----------



## BlueSteel

Hi All,

Here is my latest arrival...it is a Shobudani stone with a lot of renge. The vendor - an excellent US shop - said the stones were sold to him from a large stock of Shobudani stones from a reliable supplier, but he did not really have much more info than that. 

If anyone has any thoughts or info on this stone I'd be happy to hear. The stone seems more like a tomae strata than a suita based on color, except it seems a bit unusual to have all the renge in a tomae stone...?

The stone has excellent dimensions: 175mm x 93mm x 25mm and weighs 1kg.

Have not put a knife across it yet, as I want to put a couple coats of cashew lacquer on first!

Here is a dry pic and a wet pic:


----------



## Badgertooth

It definitely isn't Suita but I have a Shobu very similar to it that had the exact same stamps. I won't do the fools errand of guessing the strata because I don't think it's all that important. What I can tell you from my to-and-fro with the vendor and my experience of sharpening with it is that it will most likely be a wonderful combination of fine and quite abrasive. It should cut quite nicely for a softy and leave more-or-less the perfect kitchen edge with a little haze cosmetic finish. Red shoboudani are bloody lovely.


----------



## BlueSteel

Badgertooth said:


> It definitely isn't Suita but I have a Shobu very similar to it that had the exact same stamps. I won't do the fools errand of guessing the strata because I don't think it's all that important. What I can tell you from my to-and-fro with the vendor and my experience of sharpening with it is that it will most likely be a wonderful combination of fine and quite abrasive. It should cut quite nicely for a softy and leave more-or-less the perfect kitchen edge with a little haze cosmetic finish. Red shoboudani are bloody lovely.



Thank you, sir!!! I was hoping for this kind of info - much appreciated. Your stone has a stunning look to it!

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## TheCaptain

BlueSteel said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Here is my latest arrival...it is a Shobudani stone with a lot of renge. The vendor - an excellent US shop - said the stones were sold to him from a large stock of Shobudani stones from a reliable supplier, but he did not really have much more info than that.
> 
> If anyone has any thoughts or info on this stone I'd be happy to hear. The stone seems more like a tomae strata than a suita based on color, except it seems a bit unusual to have all the renge in a tomae stone...?
> 
> The stone has excellent dimensions: 175mm x 93mm x 25mm and weighs 1kg.
> 
> Have not put a knife across it yet, as I want to put a couple coats of cashew lacquer on first!
> 
> Here is a dry pic and a wet pic:



Nice find! Looking forward to your feedback when you take it for a spin.


----------



## XooMG

Stamp says &#30456;&#23721;&#35895;&#29986;, for what it's worth. Bernal?


----------



## Badgertooth

Ah I missed that. It's Aiiwatani not Shobou. Mores the point though, from the same seller is this Aiiwatani and it would behave very similarly to the softer red shobou.


----------



## Badgertooth

Haha, oh dear, just had a little run through the Bernal site. Who's gonna break it to them that every smaller Shobou on their site is an Aiiwatani.


----------



## tgfencer

Haha, yeah I just looked too and you're right, though it looks like the one or two larger shobu are correct from my limited kanji googling ability. Wonder who he sourced them from.


----------



## BlueSteel

Badgertooth said:


> Haha, oh dear, just had a little run through the Bernal site. Who's gonna break it to them that every smaller Shobou on their site is an Aiiwatani.



Hi Folks,

So it appears my "Shobu" from Bernal is really an Aiiwatani? Being that I already had a nice Shobu Tomae from MetalMaster, I am not terribly upset to have something different...unless the pricing I got made mine a bad deal!!! 

I grabbed this one I showed above during a 20% off sale and got free shipping...so all-in delivered it was $110 USD. What do you guys think? Still worth keeping? (I know part of the answer is keep it if it is a good stone that sharpens well, but even before I use it I'm interested on your views on whether I got shortchanged by thinking it was a Shobu???) For reference, I did look at some Aiiwatani stones sold by JNS, and the pricing on nicer ones was up there.

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## tgfencer

There are a great deal of factors that go into pricing any products, including j-nats, for retailers and so it isn't necessarily a good idea to jump around making comparisons. Similarly, there really isn't much point in trying to compare costs of Shobu mined stones vs Aiiwatani mine stones. Obviously I cannot speak to the quality of the stone, how it sharpens or fits your needs, but I dont see much amiss at the cost.


----------



## BlueSteel

tgfencer said:


> ...I dont see much amiss at the cost.



Thanks for your feedback - and this was the part I was looking to figure out. I never shopped for an Aiiwatani before, so I had no frame of reference. If you told me they generally sell for $50 or $60 I'd be upset...I normally research all my purchases to avoid overpaying for things. If $110 sounds about right...or even like a good price...then I'm fine to let it ride and not take it up with the seller.

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## Badgertooth

I have had both from the common source and I'd be pretty stoked about trying a different variety. Pricing wise you were not short changed at all. You've actually got a lot of stone for the money. If you bought it because you were very specifically looking for shoboudani, that's a separate conversation to have with Bernal. But otherwise, you've got a cool finisher that will probably be quite forgiving. Please post pictures once it's in use


----------



## tgfencer

Haha, yeah what Otto said. Honestly, unless you get lucky with something, anything under $100 in the jnat world _might_ buy you a smaller piece of a common variety of coarse stone, a tomo nagura, or an irregular koppa. Might.


----------



## BlueSteel

Badgertooth said:


> Pricing wise you were not short changed at all. You've actually got a lot of stone for the money. If you bought it because you were very specifically looking for shoboudani, that's a separate conversation to have with Bernal. But otherwise, you've got a cool finisher that will probably be quite forgiving.



Awesome - thanks Otto! I was most likely going to keep it and experiment, but the feedback from you gents seals the deal. I wasn't really on the hunt for a Shobu specifically - just saw a good deal and figured this one might have a bit different "flavor" than the one I already had...turns out it is a whole 'nother flavor altogether!

(BTW, I am going to cashew lacquer the Numata you sold me a few months back at the same time I do this Aiiwatani...still have not used the Numata as I've been waiting for some nicer weather so I could do the lacquer job on my outdoor deck.)

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## BlueSteel

Badgertooth said:


> Haha, oh dear, just had a little run through the Bernal site. Who's gonna break it to them that every smaller Shobou on their site is an Aiiwatani.



Either someone reached out to them, or the folks at Bernal saw this thread - their online listings just changed to Aiiwatani. :doublethumbsup:

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## Krassi

Yeah  also just checked their site and its now full of Aiiwatanis  Actually the 180x100mm Koppas are awesome size for the price!!! Thats really good.. 25mm more length is not a big difference, but 100mm wide is like driving your car on the Autobahn  .. whatever its labeled as long as its good with great feedback its a good stone!.. i didnt like my Aiiwatani kopper because it was so tiny and a triangle (worst shape possible)..
but 150+mm x 100mm Koppas are really great! 

6 new Jnats should leave japan tomorrow in my direction (guess how broke i am this month with also a watanabe Knife+2synthetic order too )) but worth it)

Seeya, Daniel


----------



## Badgertooth

Haha, yeah a little birdy dropped them an IG pm


----------



## tgfencer

Can't wait to see some pictures of your newcomers, Daniel.


----------



## Krassi

yeah its worth waiting @tgfencer 
4 different Nakayamas (carpenter Suita, beige Karasu, a thin orange one and ah sick awesedo asagi) and 2 unknown with sick colors. Also another one is still in customs (a beige NOS Narutaki with the sticker and Stamps)


----------



## foody518

I guess I have two Aiiwatani koppas then. One from Bernal and a lvl 4 from JNS. Among my hardest and finest knife finishers
https://goo.gl/photos/2P4Syez1SQAmeN9q9


----------



## BlueSteel

Krassi said:


> Yeah  also just checked their site and its now full of Aiiwatanis  Actually the 180x100mm Koppas are awesome size for the price!!! Thats really good.. 25mm more length is not a big difference, but 100mm wide is like driving your car on the Autobahn  .. whatever its labeled as long as its good with great feedback its a good stone!
> 
> Seeya, Daniel



Hi Daniel,

Yes, when I was looking at these I thought I'd be good with buying a koppa so long as it had pretty uniform shape, 170+ length, and nice extra-wide width. I own a lot of larger knives, and I feel like this gives me more real estate to play with!!!

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## Krassi

Totally! with this super wide its super fun to put a blade on the stone. anything below 75mm feels too small for me .. like a stick .


----------



## Badgertooth

The quickest way to improve your technique is to sharpen on a < 60mm stone. When you upgrade to wider, you notice the increased steadiness in your technique


----------



## dwalker

Badgertooth said:


> The quickest way to improve your technique is to sharpen on a < 60mm stone. When you upgrade to wider, you notice the increased steadiness in your technique



+1


----------



## BlueSteel

Another question for you Jnat hounds...

My Aiiwatani (as it turns out) stone pictured at post #1326 has a pattern I called renge. Perhaps I was influenced to call it that by the fact that the stone has so much red coloring under that pattern. Now I'm thinking that pattern might be nashiji ("pear skin") instead - I'm not sure? I think that fits the appearance and makes more sense on a non-suita stone. I realize my pics are not super great (phone) but do you have any views on that question from what you can see?

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## valgard

Fresh off the mailman from my wife for Valentine is an Uchigumori Hazuya Aka Renge


----------



## Badgertooth

Entirely cribbed from Japanstone but:

"Renge is only found in suita stones (not in tomae) and it can be the typical red or even black with purple in-between. Renge is a concentration of ancient radiolarian that were present at the time the stones were formed.
Nashiji (pear skin) or fine light brown (or white on darker stones) is found only in tomae stones.
Yaki is a concentration of alternate minerals and can be found in both suita and tomae stones. It is normally considered a detractor, the darker the


----------



## Badgertooth

valgard said:


> Fresh off the mailman from my wife for Valentine is an Uchigumori Hazuya Aka Renge
> View attachment 34696
> View attachment 34697



That awkward moment when I want to marry your wife a little


----------



## foody518

@Valgard AWESOME!!


----------



## valgard

Badgertooth said:


> Entirely cribbed from Japanstone but:
> 
> "Renge is only found in suita stones (not in tomae) and it can be the typical red or even black with purple in-between. Renge is a concentration of ancient radiolarian that were present at the time the stones were formed.
> Nashiji (pear skin) or fine light brown (or white on darker stones) is found only in tomae stones.
> Yaki is a concentration of alternate minerals and can be found in both suita and tomae stones. It is normally considered a detractor, the darker the



I don't know what I'm talking about here, I just copy pasted from Shinichi. Thx for the info.

EDIT: BTW, the freckles all over the stone are reddish and the stone looks a bit like a light purple.


----------



## valgard

Badgertooth said:


> That awkward moment when I want to marry your wife a little


:rofl2:


----------



## valgard

foody518 said:


> @Valgard AWESOME!!



Thx


----------



## valgard

This one shows the stone better


----------



## BlueSteel

valgard said:


> I don't know what I'm talking about here, I just copy pasted from Shinichi. Thx for the info.
> 
> EDIT: BTW, the freckles all over the stone are reddish and the stone looks a bit like a light purple.



I think Otto's post may have been addressing my question from the post right before yours.

And very nice stone you got there .

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## valgard

BlueSteel said:


> I think Otto's post may have been addressing my question from the post right before yours.
> 
> And very nice stone you got there .
> 
> Cheers,
> Blair


Thx, I couldn't make sense of it and was wrecking my brains cuz the stone looks purplish and the dots reddish. :scratchhead:


----------



## Krassi

Holy Moly!
That thing is super hyper clean without any lines! 
Your wife should give us all tips where to get awesome jants!! a "valgard's knife Jnat advice corner" )

The stone looks like a typical Uchigumori.. i also had one with exactly these colors.. mine was just too hard for my taste.

Is that stone really hard or a softer one?


----------



## valgard

@Krassi thx. perhaps it doesn't show in my pics but there is a line that can be felt about 2" from the top. I have not tried the stone yet but it was listed HS52 if that tells you something.


----------



## brooksie967

Nice looking stone. Is this from namikawa?


----------



## inzite

got my first jnats this week.  sealing them now.

was sold to me (from left to right) as... okudo suita, shinden suita, shobudani tomae



IMG_20170226_094311_531 by Ricky Cheong Photography, on Flickr


----------



## Krassi

Hiho!

@valgard 
Ahh now i can see it too.. hope this gets lesser if you diamondplate it.

I got an Uchigumori with some lines that are still harmless. Its a softer Type with Ohira Stamp (245x85x27mm).. Dondt know if i posted it before so sorry if its a repost 






HS52 seems hard.. actually like the stone i had that looked the same from the color.


@inzite 
WOW! All 3 look super clean and awesome! great catch!!

seeya, daniel


----------



## inzite

Krassi said:


> @inzite
> WOW! All 3 look super clean and awesome! great catch!!



tested the shobudani tomae and the okudo suita, my sharpest edges so far! the tomae is a great kasumi polisher as well. Okudo is pretty hard and for non wide bevel sharpening it doesn't kick up much.


----------



## Andrey V

BlueSteel said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Here is my latest arrival...it is a Shobudani stone with a lot of renge. The vendor - an excellent US shop - said the stones were sold to him from a large stock of Shobudani stones from a reliable supplier, but he did not really have much more info than that.
> 
> If anyone has any thoughts or info on this stone I'd be happy to hear. The stone seems more like a tomae strata than a suita based on color, except it seems a bit unusual to have all the renge in a tomae stone...?
> 
> The stone has excellent dimensions: 175mm x 93mm x 25mm and weighs 1kg.
> 
> Have not put a knife across it yet, as I want to put a couple coats of cashew lacquer on first!
> 
> Here is a dry pic and a wet pic:



[emoji112]&#127995;[emoji112]&#127995;[emoji112]&#127995;
It looks pretty much similar to my old stock Shobudani Iromono. 
It is Tomae layer, not Suita
It feels like ~5,5k stone, over Aoto but under fine finishers. Can be considered as a finisher as well. 
Not muddy, but soft enough 
It should leave hazy finish, not a mirror, but a pretty nice one. 
Tell then if it's similar to description. 
Looks nice. 
Cheers


----------



## Badgertooth

BlueSteel said:


> (BTW, I am going to cashew lacquer the Numata you sold me a few months back at the same time I do this Aiiwatani...still have not used the Numata as I've been waiting for some nicer weather so I could do the lacquer job on my outdoor deck.)



I think you could take the risk of a little usage while you wait for it to warm up. These aren't layered so there's less risk. I mean, by all means, seal it when it's warmer but have a little sharpen on it!


----------



## BlueSteel

Badgertooth said:


> I think you could take the risk of a little usage while you wait for it to warm up. These aren't layered so there's less risk. I mean, by all means, seal it when it's warmer but have a little sharpen on it!



Hi Otto, might just do that this weekend!

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## brooksie967

The nicest stone I have ever had the pleasure of holding or using.


----------



## valgard

:bigeek: Gorgeous stone


----------



## Badgertooth

I know enough about Brooksie that if he says it's the nicest stone he's ever used, it'd be the best of the best. That is just amazing man


----------



## brooksie967

Badgertooth said:


> I know enough about Brooksie that if he says it's the nicest stone he's ever used, it'd be the best of the best. That is just amazing man



You're making me blush Otto lol. Honestly this puts everything I've touched to shame. When I visited Takeshi Aoki in Mililani on Oahu he let me test everything and all his personal stones too. This, without a doubt, is nicer than anything he had at the time. 

Btw, if anyone is looking at aframestokyo for stones I think he's the best judge of hardness/fineness outside of Japan. His ratings are bang on.


----------



## aboynamedsuita

Man that's renge city right there, I don't think I see any lines either. What a specimen!


----------



## Marek07

As inexperienced as I am, that is a stone of true beauty. Wow!



brooksie967 said:


> The nicest stone I have ever had the pleasure of holding or using.


----------



## Andrey V

Purest Ohira porn..


----------



## Badgertooth




----------



## Doug

brooksie967 said:


> You're making me blush Otto lol. Honestly this puts everything I've touched to shame. When I visited Takeshi Aoki in Mililani on Oahu he let me test everything and all his personal stones too. This, without a doubt, is nicer than anything he had at the time.
> 
> Btw, if anyone is looking at aframestokyo for stones I think he's the best judge of hardness/fineness outside of Japan. His ratings are bang on.



Beautiful stone Brooksie. If Renge was a rash that stone would be on life support. Congratulations. 
Takeshi does have his unique method of judging stones. Did he indicate the hardness/fineness of your stone?


----------



## Doug

Badgertooth said:


>



Another beauty Otto. Your killing me. This thread should be renamed, "I WANT ONE of THOSE"


----------



## Badgertooth

Doug said:


> Another beauty Otto. Your killing me. This thread should be renamed, "I WANT ONE of THOSE"



Haven't given it the proper workout yet but I can tell you it's shiki uchigumori with namazu patterning from Maruoyama. Rather confusingly, it is not from the top tenjo layer where sword-grade uchigumori is from. It's from several strata below and is below shiro suita. Watanabe describes them as having a brother-sister relationship but shiki uchigumori will leave a foggier jigane. I plan to get my hands on a kuro Renge stone from Maruoyama and compare the shiro suita v kiiro Suita v kuro Renge v shiki uchigumori


----------



## tgfencer

I've got two shiki uchigumori Maruoyama, one from Watanabe and one from elsewhere. Both are quick to slurry and produce nice cloudy contrast. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on how yours compares to the uchimugori from Ohira. At any rate, I'll think you will be pleased with yours Otto. I also have no small amount of envy for your growing Maruoyama suita collection.


----------



## inzite

nothing compared to that crazy renge in the past page or two but this one came in. Was listed as Ohira Renge Suita. Can't feel the lines at all.



IMG_20170310_144358_744 by Ricky Cheong Photography, on Flickr


----------



## Badgertooth

inzite said:


> nothing compared to that crazy renge in the past page or two but this one came in. Was listed as Ohira Renge Suita. Can't feel the lines at all.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_20170310_144358_744 by Ricky Cheong Photography, on Flickr



Dunno man, looks pretty awesome to me. How does it sharpen


----------



## inzite

Badgertooth said:


> Dunno man, looks pretty awesome to me. How does it sharpen



just sealed it and it feels pretty good! a good buy!


----------



## brooksie967

Beautiful!! Love me some suita


----------



## inzite

brooksie967 said:


> Beautiful!! Love me some suita



hehe thanks and jnats is indeed a big black hole haha


----------



## mcritchlow

How often does one feel the lines in a suita? My only jnat experience is with a takashima from JNS, which has no lines at all.

Suitas seem to often have them, just the nature of the layer of rock I suppose. I've been curious


----------



## inzite

mcritchlow said:


> How often does one feel the lines in a suita? My only jnat experience is with a takashima from JNS, which has no lines at all.
> 
> Suitas seem to often have them, just the nature of the layer of rock I suppose. I've been curious



im no expert in jnat but thats why one should buy from a good seller who would disclose if any of the lines can be felt, else its pretty much lottery. Took a gamble on this one and it paid off well haha.


----------



## mcritchlow

Nice! It's a great looking stone, sounds like you scored.

Yeah, I think you're right on with the trusted seller thing. I'm not in the market at the moment, but it has been something I've been wondering for a while since I started paying more attention to jnats.


----------



## XooMG

inzite said:


> nothing compared to that crazy renge in the past page or two but this one came in. Was listed as Ohira Renge Suita. Can't feel the lines at all.


Looks like a great stone. Mine has very similar layering.


----------



## inzite

XooMG said:


> Looks like a great stone. Mine has very similar layering.



thanks my friend! share it on your instagram! if only i had your skills.

Took my kato for a quick session on this one and it felt good and edge was good as well. Much easier to use something this size than my other smaller stones but they are good for practicing though.


----------



## inzite

mcritchlow said:


> Nice! It's a great looking stone, sounds like you scored.
> 
> Yeah, I think you're right on with the trusted seller thing. I'm not in the market at the moment, but it has been something I've been wondering for a while since I started paying more attention to jnats.



yeah totally gambled on this one as seller didnt disclose anything specific to the lines hehe.


----------



## mainaman

Two Nakayama Maruka from Hatanaka , the asagi is pure with not a single line or a crack.


----------



## Badgertooth

Damn


----------



## TheCaptain

Nicccceeee...


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

Amazing, Stefan!


----------



## mcritchlow

Beautiful stones. The coloring in the asagi is amazing!


----------



## inzite

looks awesome! how hard is the first one?


----------



## mainaman

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Amazing, Stefan!



Thanks Marcelo


----------



## mainaman

mcritchlow said:


> Beautiful stones. The coloring in the asagi is amazing!



It is quite beautiful stone.


----------



## mainaman

inzite said:


> looks awesome! how hard is the first one?


I would say lvl5 by JNS standards.


----------



## inzite

mainaman said:


> I would say lvl5 by JNS standards.



 that sounds hard, for razor? 

family photo hehe.


IMG_20170310_211647_710 by Ricky Cheong Photography, on Flickr


----------



## Mute-on

What are the first three, inzite?

Ohira Suita looks like a beast! Congrats.


----------



## mainaman

inzite said:


> that sounds hard, for razor?


Yes for razors but it works on knives too.


----------



## inzite

Mute-on said:


> What are the first three, inzite?
> 
> Ohira Suita looks like a beast! Congrats.



 thanks my friend, left to right shinden suita, shoubudani tomae, okudo (renge?) suita


----------



## Badgertooth

tgfencer said:


> I've got two shiki uchigumori Maruoyama, one from Watanabe and one from elsewhere. Both are quick to slurry and produce nice cloudy contrast. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on how yours compares to the uchimugori from Ohira. At any rate, I'll think you will be pleased with yours Otto. I also have no small amount of envy for your growing Maruoyama suita collection.



Agree 100% with your assessment and I find it has overlap with maruoyama shiro suita too in terms of the edge it leaves. It's a best of both worlds stone. Very chuffed with it.


----------



## tgfencer

Badgertooth said:


> It's a best of both worlds stone. Very chuffed with it.



Glad to hear it!


----------



## TheCaptain

Ok, did anyone else pick up one of these?

YAGINOSHIMA ASAGI LV 2-4

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/yaginoshima-asagi-lv-2-4-a1209/

I managed to snag one because I was intrigued by a stone that could go from lv 2 to lv4. 

Did anyone else here get one? It is, as Maksim states, a very hard stone. I worked with it for a bit and despite my best efforts couldn't get it to act like anything but a lv 4 for more polishing than sharpening. I tried a combination of nagura's to work up different types of mud and even focused on managing how much water I was throwing into the mix. 

I have no regrets on getting it, esp at that price, I just want to learn to use it to it's full potential. 

Any thoughts?

View attachment 35046


----------



## Andrey V

TheCaptain said:


> Ok, did anyone else pick up one of these?
> 
> YAGINOSHIMA ASAGI LV 2-4
> 
> http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/yaginoshima-asagi-lv-2-4-a1209/
> 
> I managed to snag one because I was intrigued by a stone that could go from lv 2 to lv4.
> 
> Did anyone else here get one? It is, as Maksim states, a very hard stone. I worked with it for a bit and despite my best efforts couldn't get it to act like anything but a lv 4 for more polishing than sharpening. I tried a combination of nagura's to work up different types of mud and even focused on managing how much water I was throwing into the mix.
> 
> I have no regrets on getting it, esp at that price, I just want to learn to use it to it's full potential.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 35046



Hi hi
First of all- check it on different steels. 
My experience says- Yaginoshima tends to be great on stainless and dead on carbons. 
Not bad on powder steel as well. 
Please tell if you have checked it on several steels, i mean several stainless ( different hardness). 
It's funny, but especially this mine gives stones being highly specialized on some tasks. 
Cheers
Andrey


----------



## geoff_nocon

Hi guys just arrived today . First jnat from maxim and it did not disappoint. It was so hard to resist the renges.


----------



## tgfencer

Looks great Geoff. The suita bug is a dangerous creature once it bites you...fair warning.


----------



## valgard

That suits looks nasty with all those ugly purple/red dots


----------



## geoff_nocon

Dangerous indeed. It already looks so lonely on its own hahaha.


----------



## valgard

valgard said:


> That suits looks nasty with all those ugly purple/red dots


 of course the autocorrect wouldn't like Suita.


----------



## geoff_nocon

This happens to me all the friggin time


----------



## geoff_nocon

Gave it a test on my favorite stone tester. Super uniform finish and nice contrast. Best stone I've used by far. Although I haven't tried many.


----------



## TheCaptain

Nice...


----------



## krx927

geoff_nocon said:


> Hi guys just arrived today . First jnat from maxim and it did not disappoint. It was so hard to resist the renges.



Are your hand really small or is the stone huge?

Nice stone


----------



## inzite

geoff_nocon said:


> Hi guys just arrived today . First jnat from maxim and it did not disappoint. It was so hard to resist the renges.



looks like a superb stone!


----------



## geoff_nocon

krx927 said:


> Are your hand really small or is the stone huge?
> 
> Nice stone



It's not that big. Maybe I do have small hands but it is quite thick 192mm 68mm 38mm


----------



## dwalker

I just revisited my Tshushima Nagura to tune up a knife I just sold to a friend. I don't know if these are overlooked, but they are rarely discussed. Super consistent, huge, affordable, easy to use, and leave a killer edge.


----------



## foody518

dwalker said:


> I just revisited my Tshushima Nagura to tune up a knife I just sold to a friend. I don't know if these are overlooked, but they are rarely discussed. Super consistent, huge, affordable, easy to use, and leave a killer edge.
> View attachment 35281
> 
> View attachment 35282



Edge only, or wide bevel as well? I had some issues with skidding and streaking, but have certainly finished an edge with one on occasion


----------



## dwalker

I've used it for a kasumi on the bevel but you have to have the mud and pressure just right. It tends to be a bit sticky until you figure it out. This knife was edge only.


----------



## Badgertooth

dwalker said:


> It tends to be a bit sticky until you figure it out. This knife was edge only.



This.


----------



## Andrey V

As to me, a Chu Nagura offers more. I have them all, and must admit that Tsushima feels a bit weird. Like semi- natural. 
Works better on stainless. Needs bit pressure at the beginning. 
Comes normally in huge bricks. Being black gives white slurry. Don't like the finish it leaves on wide bevels. 
To me it's anyway a midstone. It is actually. 
But can be in progression, especially considering it's price and size.


----------



## brooksie967

Andrey V said:


> As to me, a Chu Nagura offers more. I have them all, and must admit that Tsushima feels a bit weird. Like semi- natural.
> Works better on stainless. Needs bit pressure at the beginning.
> Comes normally in huge bricks. Being black gives white slurry. Don't like the finish it leaves on wide bevels.
> To me it's anyway a midstone. It is actually.
> But can be in progression, especially considering it's price and size.



They are the most "synthetic" feeling naturals I've ever used too. I've had a few but sold it traded the rest!


----------



## Andrey V

brooksie967 said:


> They are the most "synthetic" feeling naturals I've ever used too. I've had a few but sold it traded the rest!



Ha ha! Yesss
But to get the weirdest feeling ever try the Belgium Coticule. Especially the high grade. 
That's the most strange stone..


----------



## Badgertooth




----------



## foody518

That muddd


----------



## Badgertooth

That was about 1 minute on stainless cladding. More swarf than mud though.


----------



## foody518

I guess, in the sense that not every stone + knife metal combo (predominantly swarf or not) will get to that kind of consistency in the photo


----------



## Krassi

Hiho!

I hope its ok to show off my recent stones (4 more incoming ) )

Some are "blabla Motoyama" and i have no clue what they are or how fine they actually are.









Has anyone seen something like the one in the red circle before? Its a Nakayma Gotogi.. thats all i know and was used by a barber before..
The stone is not to hard, good smooth Feedback, makes good slurry and great polishing and has some black cloud like patterns and also some red parts
You can see some small holes.. so holes are usually unique to suitas.. also it has those oldschool big saw marks on the side and a nice laquered wood base..






Hmm that photo was actually not so good here are some more closeups with some boosted contrasts:










well got at least 5-6 more mystery ones that are grazy pre polisehrs or super hard endboss finishers.
Seeya DanieL!


----------



## Krassi

Ahh Damned i should have at least named those stones, sorry so here is a *short summary*:






*1)**Something Nakayama* like softer stone and super fast pre finisher.. makes the best hazy finish of all stones
*2)**Narutaki Iromono* . well its mostly red and the yellow parts are nearly the same like on 1) awesome softer pre finisher too and makes more a mirror like finish
*3)*Good and fast *Nakayama Suita* with a super awesome horizontal line pattern. Never seen something like this before .. looks like they cut it with 90degree rotation vertically so you have black and orange lines like someone used a ruler
*4)Aiiwatani Karasu* with insane amount of kesuji
*5)*My Aircraft carrier Size *Ohira Uchigumori*.. the lines are all harmless and good Polisher + sharpness
*6)*My best Stone, a *Ohira Suita Aka renge of doom* (plus lots more has ao renge, orange parts and litle karasu too and that was the stone i was looking for when i started with jnats)
*7)Big ugly Nakayma Karasu with kesuji*. I was Lucky because the Lines are just for show and a perfect even surface
*8)*Excellent super fast brick size *Vintage Aizu*
*9)*A great *green Ikarashi* , it is like a chainsaw on soft standard Solingen Stainless nearly as fast like a synthetic (in my imagination ) )
*10)Thai grey Binsui* from miles (also got a gigantic orange and a unknown coarser one with pink renge stuff)
*11)My "ugly grey one"*.. looks like crap but is a beast.. it seems to resemble a* Okudo Awesedo* 1:1 from Badger.
My hardest and finest stone, that works unexpectedly good as the final endboss finisher. Gives an insane edge
*12)*yeah thats the *Nakayama Gotogi* that i am glueless about.. because of the small suita style holes and black cloudy stuff and multicolor.. well its a weird one  soo i had to get it! Muahaha fast, good polisher easy to use
*13)Nakayama Awesedo Gotogi* with a good touch of orange in one corner.. Both sides are flattened and its a interstellar good Finisher.
*14)"Nakayama i am totally clueless"* very homogene white/beige stone with some black renge like stuff too.. came togeter with the big Nagura below 17)... it was flat but not lapped and after Atoma-rizing it suddenly became a super hard ,fast,fine finisher. I think something a Barber would use but great for kitchenknifes.
*15)*Everybodys darling  ... a fullsize super clean and fully packed* Ohira Ao Renge of doom* from Shinichi.. Got it a year before the hype started for a unimaginably good price.
*16) my super ugly bastard of doom! *It looked like crap when i got it, after rebeveling and lapping its a very nice yellow colored *Nakayama* wich is super fast and looks kind of orange when its wet.. the woodbase is big like a truck 
*17)Narutaki Awesedo in green*. Good finisher very smooth and silky and very homogeneous.
*18)*Well it was stamped *"shou honyama"* and its a Suita that looks a bit like a maruyama or a Nakayma Suita.. well i am clueless and dont care because its very good and was my first Jnat that got me full hooked on those rocks ) 
here is the original photo with the stamps and it was from the private collection of Mr Horie from the known Germanknife shop... http://up.picr.de/28971079sb.jpg ...if someone recognizes this then it would be interesting of course 
*19)Okudo Shiro Suita with aka renge* .. yeah its from 330... but its awesome and very long 

Soo still coming..
-Orange super Size Omura (i guess around 200 grit and good for stone lapping and ill try it as a corse one for knife.. maybe its work 
-Nakayama Iromono red/orange and supposed to be a pre finisher that erases any scratches from mid grit Aoto and friends
-Wakasa endboss finisher.. Looks like my interstellar Nakayama 13) and i guess its similar good
-Narutaki beige one.. also NOS with all stamps, sticker, box and never used.. i dondt know what it will be but Narutakis are awesome!

Soo thats all folks 
Seeya Daniel


----------



## Badgertooth

Mic drop


----------



## brooksie967

Holes aren't unique to suita. Nice collection though!!!!


----------



## Krassi

Hiho! 

Thanks! Well i am glad you like em 

Its crazy what different kind of colors, patterns and styles "Nakayama" labeled Stone can be found.. but if its good than its good 
The Amount of stones i gathered is kind of scary if you start counting them so i stopped getting more and check what stuff can go.. ok thats the hard part because i like all of them. 
But i am here in the stonegatherer therapy subforum of doom!! So you all know the problems with jnat-addiction 

Ahh thanks for the tip brooksie! Well some myth destroyed for me 
I was mostly interested in the weird stones that other people didnt recognize or that had very cloudy descriptions..but i got mostly jackpots.

So if someones interested in details of some stones then i can make some closeups.
Seeya , Daniel!


----------



## khashy

brooksie967 said:


> Holes aren't unique to suita. Nice collection though!!!!



Yup, my Takashima tomae has holes, smaller ones though than the photo


----------



## Krassi

Hi khashy!
Hmm Tomae strata for that weird one sounds more reasonable than Suita strata.. Also the colors of that stone resemble rather tomae stones.
Thanks for the input!


----------



## khashy

Krassi said:


> Hi khashy!
> Hmm Tomae strata for that weird one sounds more reasonable than Suita strata.. Also the colors of that stone resemble rather tomae stones.
> Thanks for the input!



it's possible. I'll get a photo of the stone I'm talking about so you can see for yourself


----------



## Krassi

Cool! No rush!
I learned a lot about different stones from the great posts in the jnat club.. you often need some reference first.. Like my ugly grey one Nr.11) looked like the evil bum twin of a Okudo Asagi Awesedo from Badgertooth.
The most important thing is that the stone is working as intended!  .. I guess the only big differences from Kyoto stones is if they come from the northern or southern mountains (the harder stuff like Okudo,Nakayama..).
Since all mines just dig a horizontal tunnel in the same mountains from another angle and side its often similar or same kinds of stones that they dig out....well ok...but no one would actually ignore a godemperor ohira shiro suita aka renge in MOAB size  ... nope!

Seeya ,Daniel


----------



## zetieum

There is a new bus stop in Cologne südstadt: Danieler Wall.


----------



## Doug

Wow, lot of nice stones in the J-Nat club lately.
This just arrived from the Badgertooth collection. Maruoyama shiki uchigumori. Cool stone. 
Played with it a little while tonight.
Different from Ohira uchigumori both in look and feedback. Love the veins of namazu that run through it. The color and contrast remind me of the white bellies of catfish. Feels almost like a cross between awasedo and aoto. When working an edge it gives off that "micro crackle" feel and sound that aoto have. Nice bitey edge on aebl, ginsan and white steel.
Gives up slurry on a wide bevel with a little pressure. Fairly fast and looks good for kasumi work. I'm going to enjoy getting to know this stone.
Thanks Otto


----------



## Badgertooth

She's a beauty Doug and I think there's a lot of nuance to get to know and explore with that stone. Namazu could not have been more apt a name than for this stone.


----------



## Badgertooth

1 of 5 new Aizu





My now broken in half new Suita




Whistle clean shou Honyama Awasedo brick





Squelchy soft shou Honyama Awasedo with namazu and a second stamp that I'm struggling with but might be Oouchi


----------



## Krassi

WOOW!
Thats also the Otto-Stone-Avalanche!
Very cool stones and you are lucky that the Suita broke into 2 Suitas  and not two chunks of debris.
Also that Maruyami Shiki looks very good! The namazu looks like Gold veins on the picture and the color is very dark. Cool stone.

Do you intend to buy all Aizus in Japan Otto? ) because 1 of 5 is pretty crazy!
Well since they all differ a bit i am glad my first one is spot on and fits me best.

Seeya ,daniel!


----------



## Krassi

HihO!

Finally after a 4 month world tour "japan-germany-back to japan-germany" i got my NOS Narutaki.
I already got a red one also NOS from the same label and this time its a ocre/green one.

So it has all the flashy stamps on it and the sticker was never removed before .. ahhhh removing it was pure porn  like if you remove the plastic protection foil from a new cellphone or tv !

Ok i used a small Shiro Koma Nagura to protect the stamps and holy karate!!! even with slower nagura slurry (slower than diamond plate) it gave me an instant dark mud after 5 strokes.. with more it turned pretty sick dark.. 
And thats not all its polishing as fast! removes scratches instantly and now i have porn grin burned in my face that wont go away )

So jackpot! 

Seeya Daniel 






















now thats my third narutaki.. nice stones!!


----------



## foody518

Krassi, I want a job that pays like yours seems to &#128517;&#128518;


----------



## valgard

foody518 said:


> Krassi, I want a job that pays like yours seems to &#128517;&#128518;



I'm second in line please


----------



## Krassi

i also want a job that pays like a good job 
well because i am mad and bought stones like a maniac so that i lived on mastercard after the first week of the month because the last months stone bill made my bankaccount instant zero for the rest of the month ..
Nope.. it was just pure madness and dondt look for stones when you are drunken ) .. it was to often that i bought something.. well very often.

So this one is a real hit like i predicted. i only had some crappy overbright pictures of the stone. but it had the same sticker like the other narutaki that i already had.
i simply adjusted the colors and contrast until it matched . so i knew that its actually a ocre color stone like i wanted.






thats pretty close to the actual stone 
only 3 to go.. wakasa and orange-red nakayama remover of scratches.

Seeya Daniel


----------



## Badgertooth

Krassi said:


> i lived on mastercard after the first week of the month because the last months stone bill made my bankaccount instant zero for the rest of the month ..



The struggle is real for a rockhound. I'm struggling to decide which of my children or organs or, as a last resort, knives and stones to sell to make that MasterCard look a little less scary.


----------



## Krassi

Yep! we know that feeling (insert "that feeling" meme here)
The problem is that i actually wanna keep them all.. its so hard to decide wich i should sell.. the redundancy is super high between good stones... "something softer super polishing", "a Suita" or "Something hard for the finishing move"


----------



## dwalker

I've been stone crazy recently as well. I have put a self imposed moratorium on purchasing any more until after the blade show in Atlanta in June.


----------



## Krassi

You have to pull the brake at some point 
Still got too many good ones that its hard to decide wich one must go. The new one is a keeper.. toothy edge 11/10 .. sick stone and idiot prove simple to use because its not to hard, hyper fast and a great polisher.
its strange that you see narutakis not really often here used for kitchenknifes ..


----------



## Badgertooth

Sealing day


----------



## BlueSteel

Badgertooth said:


> Sealing day



Hi Otto,

Nice pic of those stones all lined up!

Quick question - I'm about to do some sealing of a group of stones soon but have never done this before. My thinking was that I should use painter's tape to cover the sharpening surface, put that side face-down and then lacquer all 5 remaining exposed sides at once and let them dry while the stone remains face-down. Your pic seems to show this is not how you do it. Do you see a problem with how I was planning to do this?


----------



## tgfencer

BlueSteel said:


> Hi Otto,
> 
> Nice pic of those stones all lined up!
> 
> Quick question - I'm about to do some sealing of a group of stones soon but have never done this before. My thinking was that I should use painter's tape to cover the sharpening surface, put that side face-down and then lacquer all 5 remaining exposed sides at once and let them dry while the stone remains face-down. Your pic seems to show this is not how you do it. Do you see a problem with how I was planning to do this?



I do it that way, you should be fine. The only thing to pay attention to is that if you don't seal the painters tape well on the top edge of the sides, it can run under the tape and onto the surface. If that happens, you can just lap it off.


----------



## Badgertooth

BlueSteel said:


> Hi Otto,
> 
> Nice pic of those stones all lined up!
> 
> Quick question - I'm about to do some sealing of a group of stones soon but have never done this before. My thinking was that I should use painter's tape to cover the sharpening surface, put that side face-down and then lacquer all 5 remaining exposed sides at once and let them dry while the stone remains face-down. Your pic seems to show this is not how you do it. Do you see a problem with how I was planning to do this?



That's exactly how I used to do it but too often it resulted in some seepage onto that face. So instead I have a little sample pot of paint that is low and about 60mm in diameter. I place a stone face up on the top of the can and lacquer the sides so that any drippage goes towards the bottom of the stone. When the sides are dry I flip it face down and lacquer the bottom.

Those all racked up had already been sealed but I though an extra layer on the sides couldn't hurt. I only have one little podium pot so my next best bet was to turn 'em sideways. Paint 3 sides then flip and paint the fourth later


----------



## tgfencer

That's a good idea Otto, I like it.


----------



## aboynamedsuita

BlueSteel said:


> Hi Otto,
> 
> Nice pic of those stones all lined up!
> 
> Quick question - I'm about to do some sealing of a group of stones soon but have never done this before. My thinking was that I should use painter's tape to cover the sharpening surface, put that side face-down and then lacquer all 5 remaining exposed sides at once and let them dry while the stone remains face-down. Your pic seems to show this is not how you do it. Do you see a problem with how I was planning to do this?



Blue painters tape on the surface is a good idea, I made the mistake of not using it for one round and the time to lap it out with an Atoma is not fun. Some are not perfectly flat (and don't need to be) so I ended up using a small piece of suita like a fingerstone to get it out of the low spots.

I held my stones on the top and bottom while wearing nitrile gloves and did the four sides (not fun for large & heavy stones), then gently placed the taped side on a black horticultural tray (it has raised grooves) and lacquered the bottom. Used another inverted tray as a lid.

I take it you're gonna do Cashew as well ... one suggestion is to make sure you keep the turpentine handy as it will thicken up especially if doing multiple stones and since you waited until it's warmer (I did mine in winter and I had the thermostat down, also helps save brain cells from VOCs lol).


----------



## Anton

aboynamedsuita said:


> Blue painters tape on the surface is a good idea, I made the mistake of not using it for one round and the time to lap it out with an Atoma is not fun. Some are not perfectly flat (and don't need to be) so I ended up using a small piece of suita like a fingerstone to get it out of the low spots.
> 
> I held my stones on the top and bottom while wearing nitrile gloves and did the four sides (not fun for large & heavy stones), then gently placed the taped side on a black horticultural tray (it has raised grooves) and lacquered the bottom. Used another inverted tray as a lid.
> 
> I take it you're gonna do Cashew as well ... one suggestion is to make sure you keep the turpentine handy as it will thicken up especially if doing multiple stones and since you waited until it's warmer (I did mine in winter and I had the thermostat down, also helps save brain cells from VOCs lol).


Did you add turpentine just to get back to original viscosity? A few drops I imagine?


----------



## aboynamedsuita

Anton said:


> Did you add turpentine just to get back to original viscosity? A few drops I imagine?



I used the neo-clear (#48 IIRC) Cashew and it is too thick even right out of the jar. I thinned it the most for the first coat, and also for the subsequent, then added a few drops are required.

I basically followed this video (same turpentine too), except I didn't always filter through cheesecloth until I was part way through the jar because it started to get lumpy bits after awhile.
[video=youtube;fKeRRZcXNIs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKeRRZcXNIs[/video]

I'm no expert with this jnat thing, so hopefully others can chime in too.


----------



## brooksie967

Do I have to listening to obnoxious music the whole time???


----------



## BlueSteel

Badgertooth said:


> That's exactly how I used to do it but too often it resulted in some seepage onto that face. So instead I have a little sample pot of paint that is low and about 60mm in diameter. I place a stone face up on the top of the can and lacquer the sides so that any drippage goes towards the bottom of the stone. When the sides are dry I flip it face down and lacquer the bottom.
> 
> Those all racked up had already been sealed but I though an extra layer on the sides couldn't hurt. I only have one little podium pot so my next best bet was to turn 'em sideways. Paint 3 sides then flip and paint the fourth later



Thanks for this idea!!!

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## BlueSteel

aboynamedsuita said:


> Blue painters tape on the surface is a good idea, I made the mistake of not using it for one round and the time to lap it out with an Atoma is not fun. Some are not perfectly flat (and don't need to be) so I ended up using a small piece of suita like a fingerstone to get it out of the low spots.
> 
> I held my stones on the top and bottom while wearing nitrile gloves and did the four sides (not fun for large & heavy stones), then gently placed the taped side on a black horticultural tray (it has raised grooves) and lacquered the bottom. Used another inverted tray as a lid.
> 
> I take it you're gonna do Cashew as well ... one suggestion is to make sure you keep the turpentine handy as it will thicken up especially if doing multiple stones and since you waited until it's warmer (I did mine in winter and I had the thermostat down, also helps save brain cells from VOCs lol).



Indeed - the cashew is finally going into use soon!!! Thanks for your idea about your method also, and the turpentine tip!

Cheers,
Blair


----------



## Krassi

Hiho!

something new from jnat-country

A Nakayama Iromono Namazu pre finisher on a laquered wooden base.

The stone is extremely fast and removes scratches from Aoto and Medium Grit stuff (that was the description and i tested it successfully in my office with a solingen standard sausage steel knife)
Ill check it at home with some real knifes and diamondplate slurry.

I love the color.. its beige/red and it has tons of red dots.
The stone is easy to use and not to hard, drinks a lot of water first and is super fast. Surface is perfectly plain and without any holes or disturbing line.. love it !

seeya Daniel!


----------



## Badgertooth

A beauty


----------



## Krassi

hiho!

New stuff coming




195x74x24mm Nakayama Suita 
218x103x23mm Nakayama Awesedo Asag
202x79x37mm Nakayama Suita


Got this one today from customs.
Very hard but easy to use Wakasa Awesedo, made a scary sharp edge on a nakiri.
210x82x27mm






Seeya Daniel


----------



## tgfencer

How are those nakayama suitas? One of those beauties is top of my jnat list while I'm in Japan.


----------



## Badgertooth

I can't speak for Daniel's but the one I sold to Zweber thinking I could replace it, haunts me. I did actually eventually replace it and it's one I haven't written up because it would just be a hyperbole-driven fluff piece.

Second from top right


----------



## Badgertooth

Krassi said:


> hiho!
> 
> New stuff coming
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 195x74x24mm Nakayama Suita
> 218x103x23mm Nakayama Awesedo Asag
> 202x79x37mm Nakayama Suita
> 
> 
> Got this one today from customs.
> Very hard but easy to use Wakasa Awesedo, made a scary sharp edge on a nakiri.
> 210x82x27mm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seeya Daniel



These look great Daniel.


----------



## khashy

Badgertooth said:


> I can't speak for Daniel's but the one I sold to Zweber thinking I could replace it, haunts me. I did actually eventually replace it and it's one I haven't written up because it would just be a hyperbole-driven fluff piece.
> 
> Second from top right



A bit off topic but what's the top left hand ide stone that's kind of half in the picture?


----------



## tgfencer

Badgertooth said:


> I can't speak for Daniel's but the one I sold to Zweber thinking I could replace it, haunts me. I did actually eventually replace it and it's one I haven't written up because it would just be a hyperbole-driven fluff piece.
> 
> Second from top right



Yeah, good nakayama suitable for kitchen knives seem pretty rare, especially that don't break the bank.


----------



## Badgertooth

That's a Maruoyama Kiiro Suita. Kiiro suita (yellow suita) is a layer adjacent to shiro suita (white suita). A current favourite, which I use as a dry strop. This is going to sound odd but it has a feeling of dialling up any tooth and aggression you've established with lower grits and making it more prominent rather than polishing it out and muting it as can happen with some slicker finishers


----------



## tgfencer

Oh yeah I remember you talking about the Kiiro suita. That's interesting, so you're saying it essentially accentuates the edge traits that the previous stone left. Pretty cool!


----------



## Krassi

Hiho!

Glad you like em )
The 3 ones are just bought and still in Japan but should arrive this month because i wondt wait.

Actually i dondt have a clue how those Nakayama Suitas are, but i also had a picture with black Ink Slurry on the one thats on a Wood post. 
Description said "toishi tamagoiro suban sunashi?" And its a bit stiffer.. well i will see and i had to battle hard for this one ) well at least suminagashi pattern stuff.
So its a clear 100% =¯\_(&#12484_/¯ .. my guts said "BrbrbrbrumbleWumble " .. wich means "looks good go for it and buy this".

So the Wakasa Awesedo i got today is as i expected it and looks like the twin brother of my Nakayama Awesedo (in terms of color)


@Badgertooth
Ahh isnt that "that Ohira" that we battled against each other? Color in reality is much more yellow ! Also this Wakasa and my Ohira also have this black lacquering.. on the Sides and bottom.. it seems that it was a big collection or in some area its a custom to paint them with thick black lacquering..
Pretty sexy stones on that picture! 

Ahh i also remembered when you got that kiiro Maruyama! looks better on your pictures! I also got something yellow with such a gigantic wooden pyramid like socket..

Seeya Daniel


----------



## khashy

Badgertooth said:


> That's a Maruoyama Kiiro Suita. Kiiro suita (yellow suita) is a layer adjacent to shiro suita (white suita). A current favourite, which I use as a dry strop. This is going to sound odd but it has a feeling of dialling up any tooth and aggression you've established with lower grits and making it more prominent rather than polishing it out and muting it as can happen with some slicker finishers




Aahh, okay. Did you have a video of this one in action on YouTube?


----------



## Krassi

Ahh i got my Nakayama Suita today from the stone fairy.

This think really shocked me.
Its hard enough, super smooth and hyper fast, the slurry is a pastel orange.
...well thats as expected, but its an insane polisher.. the testknife from yesterday that was used on 20 Stones looked much cleaner after this one.
It makes a very good kasumi finish and the bottom is also flat and can be used.

*http://imgur.com/a/qLKfd*







seeya daniel


----------



## Badgertooth

I believe these are called keppan.


----------



## tgfencer

Don't know Otto, is that slurry really dark enough or thick enough...maybe I should study it for you....love the color of that stone! Nice find.


----------



## Badgertooth

https://flic.kr/p/V6T8Wi


----------



## tommybig

Couple weeks old ... 2x vintage Ohira Renge Suita. According to the seller these were mined at least 65 years ago if not longer.







Size compared to JNS 1000:





Cheers
Thomas


----------



## Badgertooth

Very nice Tommy!


----------



## jaknil

Holy s... They look awesome


----------



## xantiema

I have yet to order any natural stones, but I wanted to ask if and how the natural cracks in the given stones affect sharpening? Thanks in advance


----------



## Andrey V

xantiema said:


> I have yet to order any natural stones, but I wanted to ask if and how the natural cracks in the given stones affect sharpening? Thanks in advance



The crack in the stone may ( and will) lead to chipping of the blade.
The more finer/ harder the stone is, the higher is the risk. That's why one should round the edges of the crack( same after digging out the toxic lines) 
Cheers


----------



## tommybig

xantiema said:


> I have yet to order any natural stones, but I wanted to ask if and how the natural cracks in the given stones affect sharpening? Thanks in advance



What do you mean by natural cracks?

E.g. the lines like in my stones shown above can be very diffrent. In this case they are totally harmless and u cannot feel them at all. There are also toxic lines that may have inclussions of harder material that can scratch/harm the blade, these can be resolved by digging them out.

The broken corners should be round off like the sides as Andrey said, otherwhise their only effect is reducing the stones sharpening surface.

Cheers


----------



## Andrey V

Agree with tommybig
Cracks are cracks, toxic lines are toxic lines as already explained. 
Btw- when there are broken corners- i round them intensively up( i always round up one side more then another anyway) and use for aggressive or precise sharpening. It's the pro-way for sword sharpeners. It should be used carefully, knowing what to do, otherwise there's a risk to break the edge. 
[emoji120]&#127995;


----------



## xantiema

Thanks guys, that pretty much sums up all I wanted to know


----------



## Badgertooth

Andrey V said:


> Agree with tommybig
> Cracks are cracks, toxic lines are toxic lines as already explained.
> Btw- when there are broken corners- i round them intensively up( i always round up one side more then another anyway) and use for aggressive or precise sharpening. It's the pro-way for sword sharpeners. It should be used carefully, knowing what to do, otherwise there's a risk to break the edge.
> [emoji120]&#127995;



I like using the broken corner on a stone to get in behind the edge or into a low spot. Especially useful if it's the top right corner for a right hander


----------



## Andrey V

Badgertooth said:


> I like using the broken corner on a stone to get in behind the edge or into a low spot. Especially useful if it's the top right corner for a right hander



Yeahhhhh...[emoji120]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;[emoji106]&#127995;


----------



## tommybig

How exactly do you use them? Do you chamfer the edge of the corner a little bit more to have a small flat area?


----------



## Badgertooth

tommybig said:


> How exactly do you use them? Do you chamfer the edge of the corner a little bit more to have a small flat area?



No, not specific chamfering but lots of stones seem to come shaped like SIM cards


----------



## Badgertooth

Mystery nakato time. I haven't a clue. Too soft for Tajima. Not Aizu though it's cut very similarly. Not binsui.


----------



## Andrey V

tommybig said:


> How exactly do you use them? Do you chamfer the edge of the corner a little bit more to have a small flat area?



Exactly. You shouldn't have sharp corners. The area you use for should be rounded, not really flat but continuously curved. 
Even in a " sim-card" form it's useful to get a proper shape. In this case i make 2 curved zones- for bigger and smaller works. 
The point is to have a curve, not a flat zone. The flat zone is your main sharpening area. 
Then you have at least 2 tools in one: flat for flat sharpening, curved for aggressive and specific sharpening. 
The curve is great to work in the zone behind the edge, actually precise thinning.


----------



## tommybig

Thanks a lot Badgertooth and Andrey. I am definatelty gona try that! I am not a friend of sharpening out the very last low spot right away, and lose a lot of metal/time.

@Badgertooth: that Mystery nakato looks crazy!


----------



## Choppin

Badgertooth said:


> Mystery nakato time. I haven't a clue. Too soft for Tajima. Not Aizu though it's cut very similarly. Not binsui.



Good lord Bagder, where do you find these crazy stones??


----------



## Krassi

Hiho!

Shot me something interesting (well actually a lot more but this one is very interesting)

Its a white plate that looked first like a koppa, until i read the measurements 

...240x120x40mm! A real deathstar!

Since i got many ao renge shiro suitas this one ringed my bells and on the closeup picture with a chisel and the black ink it produced i was pretty sure it must be (this was after 7 strokes as the seller mentioned)

Sooo i am very curious about this 2800 Gramm Monster 
Needs some lapping and maybe removing 1-2mm but its so thick i dondt care 

seeya daniel!


----------



## dwalker

Krassi said:


> Hiho!
> 
> Shot me something interesting (well actually a lot more but this one is very interesting)
> 
> Its a white plate that looked first like a koppa, until i read the measurements
> 
> ...240x120x40mm! A real deathstar!
> 
> Since i got many ao renge shiro suitas this one ringed my bells and on the closeup picture with a chisel and the black ink it produced i was pretty sure it must be (this was after 7 strokes as the seller mentioned)
> 
> Sooo i am very curious about this 2800 Gramm Monster
> Needs some lapping and maybe removing 1-2mm but its so thick i dondt care
> 
> seeya daniel!



Wow! You carry that around in a wheelbarrow?


----------



## Badgertooth

Krassi said:


> Hiho!
> 
> Shot me something interesting (well actually a lot more but this one is very interesting)
> 
> Its a white plate that looked first like a koppa, until i read the measurements
> 
> ...240x120x40mm! A real deathstar!
> 
> Since i got many ao renge shiro suitas this one ringed my bells and on the closeup picture with a chisel and the black ink it produced i was pretty sure it must be (this was after 7 strokes as the seller mentioned)
> 
> Sooo i am very curious about this 2800 Gramm Monster
> Needs some lapping and maybe removing 1-2mm but its so thick i dondt care
> 
> seeya daniel!



Sweet Christmas


----------



## Krassi

Its still in japan and i hope it will get to germany as one stone 
Shipping for this will be evil.

Ill wait till paypal bill is done and then ill send it in 10 days 
Its gonna be a deadly high paypal bill this time.. 2 brick size Uchigumori ,5 Suitas and some other stones.

Seeya Daniel


----------



## Krassi

HihO!

I got a big box today and here is the Highlight 

194x80x35mm

A big perfectly brick shaped collectorgrade Mizuhikara Uchigumori with a Wagyu like marble pattern (pattern is only cosmetically the stone is 100% plain without any scratching line)
Front and back side are 100% plain and usable and it even has stamps on it.

Tested it and it could polish away north korea... Jokes by side. It is very fast, not so soft with smooth great feedback and polishes extremly good. Scratches gone in an instant.
A awesome stone and will get a much bigger Ohira brother soon  Muahahah .. well i allready got such a ohira but the new one is even bigger and more grey than dark blue.

Seeya Daniel


----------



## Badgertooth

Very nice!


----------



## Krassi

Thanks! 
Other stuff is also very interesting and nothing bad.
I have a very strange 3-4k beige Stone with a weird pattern thats really interesting and fast like a synthetic.
Jnats never keep getting boring


----------



## Anton

You guys just buy this stuff by the 5lb box??!


----------



## Krassi

Not really i just got me a lot
Well the box was much bigger  a moving box. 
And the big white monster Monster is in the next box. And then its stone embargo for some time.

But i am really happy that i only scored great stones and nothing came as a broken multi part stone.


----------



## valgard

That Uchi is a total beauty.


----------



## dmccurtis

Looks like a sibling to one I have. Beautiful stone.


----------



## Krassi

hiho!

here is some more stuff .. the ones in the top row look smaller because of the angle (top row most left and right stones are 245mm length  )
In the bottom left youll find the big white stone that i mentioned 2 weeks ago... well it really is a 2,8 kilo 240x120x35mm Ao Renge Suita !!!! .. next to it is my fullsize Ohira ao renge from watanabe wich looks pretty small compared to it.

Mostly suitas and Nakayama Stuff, some weird ones and two Wakasa on the top row right. The first 3 in the top row on the left are giant uchigumori. Also one is a pretty funky vintage ohira shiro suita aka renge with giga tons of renge.














After 4-5 strokes with my Aogami2 Kamo-to Nakiri i had a concrete solid smile for the rest of the day )) This stone is hyper fast!!!! needs some lapping but its without any lines very pure, smooth sharpening and in a one and only never before seen size! 

Fun fact.... i was the only one that bid on this auction ))) Really! no joke! I guess i was the only one that suggested this is a real jewel and not junk. I was actually pretty sure it is a Ao renge.. and Jackpot!!


----------



## dwalker

Nice get! Beautiful stones.


----------



## Krassi

Thanks!

Oh because of the Camera angle and lens the top row looks smaller.. The most left and right stones are 245mm length!
Also that orange wide one (n 3 from the top right) is an insane catch. It took me only 3-4 strokes for instant black slurry. And its 190x110mm .. very nice size.

I really love those over 205x75mm stones. its just more fun to use if they are much bigger.


----------



## TheCaptain

Ok. Feel REALLY lame posting this after Krassi's haul, but we all know I'm amateur hour here...but this may allow me to up my game.

View attachment 36632


Yes my friends that is a full size hakka. I've been working on tracking one of these down for over 8 months. AND let me say soooo worth it. I got one of the JNS slivers a few months back and all that did is make me want a full sized one all the more.

What this does to my kasumi finishes is...awesome. Like anything, the right tools make the job so much easier.

I've got several different Aiiwatani and Aoto stones and each one is different enough from the last to produce a totally different experience to me. I think I may need a few more of these hakkas in my life as well.


----------



## Krassi

Sorry  and i am mad!

Sounds pretty good! a soft super polishing stone! Well i dondt care from what mine it is.. in this softer range i got 4 stones that are narutaki, nakayama and unknown.. Also Uchigumori are pretty nice 
What really is one point.. you get really different kind of kasumi looks from different stones.

I also gave a interesting purple aiiwatani wit black karasu swirls to zoze.. a nice polisher before a suita.

nice that you have a really sick polisher now!


----------



## XooMG

Shame I don't have any muddy fine polishers.


----------



## TheCaptain

XooMG said:


> Shame I don't have any muddy fine polishers.




Not really. You, sir, are a wizard. Where mere mortal men need all the help they can get, all you need is the spells in your hands and whatever flatish surface you happen to have around.

Don't try to fool me, I'm onto you!!! :happymug:

I'd probably give up my efforts in despair if I saw what you could do with a few nice muddy polishers.


----------



## Choppin

Well done Captain! I would love to see some pics of a knife finished with that hakka (for some reason I cant open the attachment). How is the effect on the jigane? Darker, towards an uchigumori, or a lighter haze?

I also have a nice hakka coming in... cant wait!


----------



## valgard

used the back side to test


----------



## XooMG

Looks very good. I have more humble results on a junker knife (still need to straighten it and regrind):




Maruoyama white suita.


----------



## valgard

XooMG said:


> Looks very good. I have more humble results on a junker knife (still need to straighten it and regrind):


Thx, but that's unfair sir... 
Very nice finish as always.
BTW, my 20CAD kiridashi also needs straightening, I see a pattern.


----------



## Krassi

Hii!

i shot me a pretty mystery Suita that came like a piece of debris.

Soo i lapped 2 mm of it und it turned out to be a jewel 

http://imgur.com/a/2dNYx









The stone is packed with pink renge and one corner is completly pink. the lines are just visual and the full surface is flat and without holes.
its gives a nice white/gray/yellow/orange slurry and is a pretty fast polisher that removes little scratches at once. 

Its also pretty big an has loooootts of colors 

Seeya,Daniel


----------



## dwalker

Nice pickup Daniel. I scored a few as well, but have not taken possession yet. I hope my luck is as good as yours.


----------



## Krassi

Hi!
Well i hope that you also scored Gold )
I was glad that i shipped those tons of stones now and well 2 new ones and more will be of course coming. Damned stone Addiction 

I really had mostly luck with my stones.. well i go by colors and sellers and what my guts tell me and what you can decipher from crappy cellphone pictures.


----------



## valgard

Nice score Daniel


----------



## Krassi

Thanks valgard!  i still have to lap my big ao renge when i have time.. this needs also around 2-3mm of lapping.. my arm will hurt after that and there should be tons of slurry i should put on a cloth. 
To much work at the moment and to many stones i should try


----------



## valgard

Krassi said:


> Thanks valgard!  i still have to lap my big ao renge when i have time.. this needs also around 2-3mm of lapping.. my arm will hurt after that and there should be tons of slurry i should put on a cloth.
> To much work at the moment and to many stones i should try


I can lap it for you, just ship it to me xD.


----------



## Krassi

hahahaha .. ehh nope 
its freaking heavy with 2800 gramms. 

I should show some other new stones soon.. got so many


----------



## brooksie967

Send it to me for proper usage


----------



## dwalker

Mmmmm....renge.


----------



## valgard

I like how that stone looks dwalker!


----------



## tgfencer

Beauty.


----------



## Krassi

WoW! This is an exceptional clean shiro suita.
Very nice stone!


----------



## Choppin

Beautiful, super clean


----------



## Choppin

Just got this guy...


----------



## Doug

Nice looking Hakka!


----------



## Badgertooth

Wow. Nice score


----------



## tgfencer

Love it


----------



## dwalker

22 kilo package showed up today.


----------



## Anton

Nuts


----------



## panda

the shipping cost alone could have probably bought you another stone


----------



## dwalker

panda said:


> the shipping cost alone could have probably bought you another stone


A nice stone


----------



## TheCaptain

Don't be a tease! Show us the rocks!!!


----------



## tgfencer

TheCaptain said:


> Don't be a tease! Show us the rocks!!!



Likewise!


----------



## dwalker

tgfencer said:


> Likewise!


Most are raw and need flattening and lapping. It is going to take me a bit to sort through them. I will share some pics soon.


----------



## Choppin

Oh my. I hope they arrived in good shape!


----------



## dwalker

Here is the first few I've pulled out of the latest batch. Some real winners here so far.


----------



## Nomsdotcom

dwalker said:


> Here is the first few I've pulled out of the latest batch. Some real winners here so far.


Oh my... 
That's too much lovely for one post


----------



## Anton

dwalker said:


> Here is the first few I've pulled out of the latest batch. Some real winners here so far.




You are going to break this thing...

You are horrible. That red one the far right, first pic; details when you can please..


----------



## dwalker

I wish I had more details, I purchased a large lot of stones together and don't have specifics on all of them. I have not encountered anything like the red one previously. You would think it would be soft, but it's definately not. It is quite fine as well. Starting with water only, you get black slurry pretty early, but it takes a while before it starts doing its thing. It leaves a pretty bright semi-mirror finish with decent contrast. It is definately not a beginner stone and takes some effort to get an even finish.


----------



## jaknil

wauuu, beautiful stones.
But 22 kg? Crazy...


----------



## dwalker

jaknil said:


> wauuu, beautiful stones.
> But 22 kg? Crazy...


Crazy indeed. I was interested in a couple of stones included in a large lot. Most of these will be for sale soon, and at awesome prices. I'm not going to make money on them, so they will be super cheap.


----------



## Choppin

Those two shiro okudo (?) suitas... yummy!


----------



## nevrknow

dwalker said:


> Crazy indeed. I was interested in a couple of stones included in a large lot. Most of these will be for sale soon, and at awesome prices. I'm not going to make money on them, so they will be super cheap.



.....loading up paypal TODAY!


----------



## nutmeg

Krassi said:


> hiho!
> 
> here is some more stuff .. the ones in the top row look smaller because of the angle (top row most left and right stones are 245mm length  )
> In the bottom left youll find the big white stone that i mentioned 2 weeks ago... well it really is a 2,8 kilo 240x120x35mm Ao Renge Suita !!!! .. next to it is my fullsize Ohira ao renge from watanabe wich looks pretty small compared to it.
> 
> Mostly suitas and Nakayama Stuff, some weird ones and two Wakasa on the top row right. The first 3 in the top row on the left are giant uchigumori. Also one is a pretty funky vintage ohira shiro suita aka renge with giga tons of renge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 4-5 strokes with my Aogami2 Kamo-to Nakiri i had a concrete solid smile for the rest of the day )) This stone is hyper fast!!!! needs some lapping but its without any lines very pure, smooth sharpening and in a one and only never before seen size!
> 
> Fun fact.... i was the only one that bid on this auction ))) Really! no joke! I guess i was the only one that suggested this is a real jewel and not junk. I was actually pretty sure it is a Ao renge.. and Jackpot!!



wow well done Daniel! but it seems like it is a true Ao regarding the slurry and black pattern


----------



## malexthekid

dwalker said:


> 22 kilo package showed up today.


Where on earth did you get that package from? If you don't mind saying.

And must have cost a boat load.


----------



## dwalker

malexthekid said:


> Where on earth did you get that package from? If you don't mind saying.
> 
> And must have cost a boat load.


Buyee Japan auction.


----------



## valgard

purple and green big unknown iromono, very hard. Makes a shiny and dark contrast finish.


----------



## valgard

and a little chunk of extremely clean Shinden suita (that dark spot in the middle of the stone was gone after 30 seconds lapping it).


----------



## aboynamedsuita

dwalker said:


> Buyee Japan auction.



I'd hate to think what the shipping would be at that weight


----------



## Marek07

valgard said:


> View attachment 36990


A casual glance on a phone and I thought you'd posted a banana... !


----------



## valgard

Marek07 said:


> A casual glance on a phone and I thought you'd posted a banana... !



that would have been too brilliant for my boring mind to pull! this made me laugh hard Marek, thx.


----------



## dwalker

Latest batch. I'm in mid grit heaven. All ringers.


----------



## TheCaptain

Dude! Well done!


----------



## valgard

hmm, green and red with some namazu, very muddy and fast, super easy for polishing... I'll take that.


----------



## geoff_nocon

Ohira renge suita 67mm thick. Might not have the best finish compared to my favorite ohira suita but it has the best and smoothest feedback.













upload my pic


----------



## Badgertooth

Yaysis


----------



## valgard

gosh!


----------



## FoRdLaz

Badgertooth said:


> Yaysis



Love that reply!


----------



## Doug

Great score! I was wondering who bought that stone. I've been looking at it for a while now. It looks like you could cut it into two nice stones but it's massive size makes it something special.


----------



## Badgertooth

This Oohira beast 






Took these king 300 scratches 






And with no bridging stones did this






Yes there are still some scratches but it vastly exceeded what I would have expected from an Uchigumori


----------



## geoff_nocon

Doug said:


> Great score! I was wondering who bought that stone. I've been looking at it for a while now. It looks like you could cut it into two nice stones but it's massive size makes it something special.



Me too was looking at it for 6 months before i pulled the trigger. Was wondering why no one bought it, sure itsnot perfectly cut but it was cheap for its size


----------



## Marek07

Badgertooth said:


> This Oohira beast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Took these king 300 scratches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And with no bridging stones did this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes there are still some scratches but it vastly exceeded what I would have expected from an Uchigumori


Impressive result!


----------



## tgfencer

geoff_nocon said:


> Ohira renge suita 67mm thick. Might not have the best finish compared to my favorite ohira suita but it has the best and smoothest feedback.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> upload my pic



That thing was sitting around for ages, glad someone finally snapped it up, was too good of a deal to not capitalize on.


----------



## valgard

Badgertooth said:


> This Oohira beast
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes there are still some scratches but it vastly exceeded what I would have expected from an Uchigumori


Massive showing off! Impressive stone Otto!


----------



## valgard

200x100x26mm aka-range suita


----------



## geoff_nocon

Super clean finish good job


----------



## valgard

geoff_nocon said:


> Super clean finish good job


thx, it has a couple streaks left. The bevel is convex on that Tanaka, especially on the right side so it's tricky to get a very even finish at my current level but enough to show what the stone can do. This one is definitely one of my top stones.


----------



## Badgertooth

valgard said:


> 200x100x26mm aka-range suita
> View attachment 37213
> View attachment 37214
> View attachment 37215



I would struggle to get a finish this clean on a complex bevel. Very nice Carlos


----------



## Badgertooth

Nakayama iromono. Killer. Like rocked straight into my top 5 good.


----------



## brooksie967

Amazing scores boys!


----------



## Choppin

Super nice stones....

Badgertooth, how is the finish from the iromono? That inky slurry looks so good...


----------



## valgard

Badgertooth said:


> I would struggle to get a finish this clean on a complex bevel. Very nice Carlos


Thx Otto! but that's the easier of both sides :wink:. Killer stone that iromono!


----------



## Badgertooth

Choppin said:


> Super nice stones....
> 
> Badgertooth, how is the finish from the iromono? That inky slurry looks so good...



It's great, pity we can't directly upload videos but it leaves a super shiny sandblast finish just south of a mirror finish


----------



## valgard

Three Aizu, I finally got around lapping these girls that had been sitting unused for a while.


----------



## ipq7

Ohira Toishi


----------



## geoff_nocon

Ohira ao renge


----------



## valgard

Aiiwatani Tomae 198x86x31mm :angel2:


----------



## TheCaptain

Nice pickup Val!


----------



## valgard

thx captain it is super nice. Mud is super slick and finish is... well, you can see how fine and consistent.


----------



## Krassi

Wow pretty nice aiiwatani.. i could guess from where and be sure to win 
That guy really has awesome Aiiwantanis.

I also got 3 new stones that i still have in the package.. will testn show em soon ( one super coarse stone, one maybe ao renge or else super fine and one freaking big carpenter nakayama kiita.


----------



## valgard

cool.


----------



## valgard




----------



## Choppin

valgard said:


> View attachment 37580
> View attachment 37581



Dude...


----------



## valgard

Some of the most photogenic stuff I have around I think. 

Stripped Natsuya




Ikimurasaki riot :whistling:





and freckles


----------



## FoRdLaz

[emoji7]


----------



## YG420

Huge and clean Tsushima, almost feels like a harder and finer aoto
Shobu suita from Jon that ive had for a while now, love it, its probably my most used stone atm
Super clean and fine hakka tomae, a bit harder than others I have but is buttery smooth and leaves great contrast 
Awesome nakayama kiita tomae, becoming my new fave, lovely feedback, not too hard, instant swarf, leaves a nice kasumi contrast with a mirror edge
The tsushima kinda dwarfs the rest, but the nakayama is 206×75×36


----------



## Badgertooth

Thats a lovely set man


----------



## panda

can you describe tsushima more?


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

Hi Panda, tsushima is not as fast as a Kouzaki aoto, mine is not even as fast as my green aoto, but it leaves a nice edge with some teeth for those who like harder stones. It works best with some slurry and with easy to sharpen carbon steel. It is usually a big stone, very consistent and with a white slurry.


----------



## YG420

Thought I'd share this super cool shobu suita I got from Jon recently. Its fast, hard and fine. Leaves a killer edge, nice, refined and sticky. Also leaves a bright kasumi finish. I think it has some cool patterns on it as well. 2nd pic shows a quick back and forth stroke with a test knife, 3rd pic is a few more strokes, then the finish it leaves after about a minute or so. I take crappy pics so the hagane doesnt look as clear and shiny in the pics as it does in real life.


----------



## danemonji

My first Jnat Shobu (203 x 75 x 50)
Not really sure what strata. I was surprised how smooth the blade glided on the stone leaving graphite like streaks behind
It is not a hard stone it muds easily without a nagura and produces a mirror hagane and a contrasty hazy( like very smooth sandblasted glass )jigane. It came sealed with lacquer on the sides and with a nice silky feeling to it.


----------



## DanielC

2 different Ohira Suita. One being extremely good, the other being good.









Then the just good one


----------



## DanielC

A harder Ohira renge suita that I leveled the bottom with clear epoxy meant for tables. The color tones on this one are exquisite. Suita are stones I will never trade or sell it seems.


----------



## DanielC

A Mikawa Chu Nagura.


----------



## danemonji

White suita and karasu


----------



## danemonji

Range suita in action


----------



## DanielC




----------



## tgfencer

DanielC said:


> The color tones on this one are exquisite. Suita are stones I will never trade or sell it seems.



They are the hardest to sell. Some of the prettiest, most unique feeling stones out there.


----------



## Matt Zilliox

heres my newest and now prettiest stone: shobudani suita not too soft, not too hard.


----------



## PalmRoyale

This Ohira kuro renge suita is one of the nicest stones I've ever owned. It's quite hard but still eager to release a slurry.


----------



## PalmRoyale

Can't leave this one out, an Okudo habutae suita. It's a flawless and extremely pure stone. Not a line, crack or spot anywhere to be found. I hardly use it but I'm still keeping it because it's so clean and pure.


----------



## valgard




----------



## PalmRoyale

First jnat I ever bought, an Ohira suita. I didn't have a clue back then about mines and strata but I heard about Yahoo Auctions so I opened an account with Buyee. I saw this beauty and I read somewhere suitas are what you want (which is bs of course, there are so many good stones that aren't suitas) and I liked the colour. I thought to myself, well, I have to start somewhere so I placed a bid and won the stone. Without knowing it at the time I bought what turned out to be the best suita I've ever owned. I've handled many suitas throughout the years and not one has ever come close to this one. It's my reference stone.


----------



## Wander Vanhoucke

PalmRoyale said:


> Without knowing it at the time I bought what turned out to be the best suita I've ever owned. I've handled many suitas throughout the years and not one has ever come close to this one. It's my reference stone.



Quite a find then! Out of curiosity, how much did you pay for it? Do you have a picture of the finish it gives?


----------



## PalmRoyale

No, I don't have a pic of the finish. I don't even have the stone at home now. It's my tool stone at work. I posted this pic on a Dutch tool forum.

It was pretty cheap, paid €93 for it. But this was years ago before the price of stones went though the roof.


----------



## kayman67

PalmRoyale said:


> First jnat I ever bought, an Ohira suita. I didn't have a clue back then about mines and strata but I heard about Yahoo Auctions so I opened an account with Buyee. I saw this beauty and I read somewhere suitas are what you want (which is bs of course, there are so many good stones that aren't suitas) and I liked the colour. I thought to myself, well, I have to start somewhere so I placed a bid and won the stone. Without knowing it at the time I bought what turned out to be the best suita I've ever owned. I've handled many suitas throughout the years and not one has ever come close to this one. It's my reference stone.
> View attachment 77315



Haha. I have one almost the same, just bit thicker.


----------



## tgfencer

One of my favorites. Also happens to be one of my best looking. Hakka iromono.


----------



## valgard

Was using this Nakayama suita yesterday and took some pictures.


----------



## tgfencer

valgard said:


> Was using this Nakayama suita yesterday and took some pictures.
> View attachment 77855
> View attachment 77856
> 
> View attachment 77857
> View attachment 77858


Wondered if you ended up with this one. Craig sent me some videos of it action, looks good. Love my nakayama shiro suita, hope this one works out for you.


----------



## valgard

This is not the one Craig had unfortunately. I got this one before he visited Tsuchihashi. I had spent too much and couldn't afford to take that one from him too .


----------



## tgfencer

valgard said:


> This is not the one Craig had unfortunately. I got this one before he visited Tsuchihashi. I had spent too much and couldn't afford to take that one from him too .



Whoops, my mistake, should have taken more than just a passing glance on my phone. Still a good looking stone though!


----------



## valgard

tgfencer said:


> Whoops, my mistake, should have taken more than just a passing glance on my phone. Still a good looking stone though!



Yeah, it's a beauty and it's a treat to use with slurry. But I think it's a little harder than the one you thought it was.


----------



## PalmRoyale

Wander Vanhoucke said:


> Do you have a picture of the finish it gives?



I do now because we have a 3 day weekend and I took my tool chest home with me.


----------



## Malcolm Johnson

Just picked up an aoto from Bernal to get me into the land of jnats. I’m stoked about it.


----------



## soigne_west

Maruichi Renge Suita


----------



## Wander Vanhoucke

PalmRoyale said:


> I do now because we have a 3 day weekend and I took my tool chest home with me.
> View attachment 78067
> View attachment 78068
> View attachment 78069


Beautiful!


----------



## Matt Zilliox

soigne_west said:


> Maruichi Renge Suita
> 
> View attachment 78083
> View attachment 78084
> View attachment 78085


ahh, you grabbed this one off ebay, i was on the fence. interesting stone.


----------



## Matt Zilliox

Malcolm Johnson said:


> Just picked up an aoto from Bernal to get me into the land of jnats. I’m stoked about it.
> View attachment 78079


very versatile stone, enjoy it


----------



## valgard

These three came back to me from a 3 months trip to Toronto.
Left to right: Shinden suita, Shobu sunashi suita, Aiiwatani tamagohiro nashiji.


----------



## PalmRoyale

This little Yaginoshima suita is the nicest I've ever owned. It's even better than my Ohira suita which used to be a reference for me. The hardness, consistency and finish are all perfect.


----------



## Matt Zilliox

PalmRoyale said:


> This little Yaginoshima suita is the nicest I've ever owned. It's even better than my Ohira suita which used to be a reference for me. The hardness, consistency and finish are all perfect.View attachment 79804


so hot


----------



## PalmRoyale

Had some epoxy left over so I reinforced the little guy with it


----------



## PalmRoyale

Malcolm Johnson said:


> Just picked up an aoto from Bernal to get me into the land of jnats. I’m stoked about it.
> View attachment 78079



I think mine is exactly like yours.


----------



## Chamber

Malcolm Johnson said:


> Just picked up an aoto from Bernal to get me into the land of jnats. I’m stoked about it.
> View attachment 78079



I picked up one of these as well. Also my first j-nat. How do you like yours so far?


----------



## Malcolm Johnson

PalmRoyale said:


> I think mine is exactly like yours.
> 
> View attachment 82154


Quite similar


----------



## Malcolm Johnson

Chamber said:


> I picked up one of these as well. Also my first j-nat. How do you like yours so far?


It’s really quite good. Different than a synthetic for sure but I love the edge I get from it.


----------



## aaamax

soigne_west said:


> Maruichi Renge Suita
> 
> View attachment 78083
> View attachment 78084
> View attachment 78085


 
Just saw this one and gotta say that is some nice stone action you have there. did you really get this on eBay? From Japan maybe? how does she cut? I'm guessing she's rather hard? Can you get a quick swarf?
really nice.


----------



## soigne_west

I think I totally scored on this suita. It came from a US seller who had some knives for sale too. Looked to me like a cook or chef. Picked up this stone and a Y. Tanaka for really cheap. I am really inexperienced but it’s harder that my 3.5 Ohira suita, but absolutely a pleasure and easy to use. It originally came from carbon knife co. I’m 99% sure it’s Nakayama.


----------



## DHunter86

Looks like a great stone, so pretty too. If that's the original box, then it may be from Narutaki, which is the kanji on it.


----------



## soigne_west

In some of the research I did I found this which led me to believe it’s nakayama.

“the owner of the mine was Kato family. Rarest and best Nakayama stones. Maruka's (= circled "Ka") "Ka" is Kato's first character "Ka"



Japan Tool - Natural Sharpening Stones - Maruichi Maruka Nakayama 1



first paragraph 

Any thoughts?


----------



## soigne_west




----------



## DHunter86

Hmmm... I'm not an expert, so just relaying what I know so far. 

That kanji is the trademark Maruichi, which is supposedly used by Kato-san, the previous owner of the Nakayama mine. However, it seems that it does not necessarily mean it's a Nakayama stone. The successor of the stamps Hatanaka also distributed stones from other quarries. Regardless of whether it is from Nakayama or Narutaki, the stone is definitely of value. More importantly, if you love the stone's performance and characteristics, then it beats any perceived value derived from the stamp.









Japanese Natural Stones, Kanji & Information


IMPORTANT: If you want to use information of this site, please use a link to my page. In that way the information will be the most up-to-date! It is allowed to use / copy the kanji and their…



historyrazors.wordpress.com





maybe a more experienced member could chip in?


----------



## makhonyiu

Asteger said:


> Taj, you can't resist the pretty stones. I'm (not at all shocked) that you ask about that pair  although the 5th one on the right, if you could see the sides or if wet, is also nice.
> 
> Okay, here they are again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As said these are all coarse or medium stones, akato or nakato. I'm not quite as bothered about finishers as many people are, so most of what I have are like these and practical for knives. L to R: unknown 'Take Tora' naka, flashy Amakusa (bottom) ara, beautiful Natsuya (top) ara, great Numata Hyotan naka, very obscure Haguro ara.
> 
> Since we were talking about lacquer, I chose these because you can really see the bit of colour the 'clear' lacquer gives to the Taketora and Haguro, and the wet look it gives on the Amakusa and Natuya, while I used amber lacquer to dress up the white Numata.



Hello, Asteger. Just wondering, is the Haguro still available?


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

makhonyiu said:


> Hello, Asteger. Just wondering, is the Haguro still available?



Hi makhonyiu, it's been some time Asteger has not been here at KKF.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer on that one.

@Asteger: come back!


----------



## makhonyiu

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Hi makhonyiu, it's been some time Asteger has not been here at KKF.
> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer on that one.
> 
> @Asteger: come back!



Hey Marcelo, thank you for noticing me.
It is truly a great grief knowing Asteger is no longer active in the forum...
Hopefully he will return soon...


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

makhonyiu said:


> Hey Marcelo, thank you for noticing me.
> It is truly a great grief knowing Asteger is no longer active in the forum...
> Hopefully he will return soon...



That's true, he is definitely missed here.


----------



## valgard

soigne_west said:


> View attachment 82358


That's Maruichi, not Maruka. Maruichi stones can be from different mines. This stone has some Nakayama-like flare to it but I wouldn't be too sure about the mine.


----------



## soigne_west

Some others I’ve picked up lately. Some of these will have to go.






honyama renge suita was yours at one point I believe @valgard






Ohira Renge Suita from Strata






Ohira Uchi From Aframes






Ohira Renge Uchi from Strata






Some soft random uchi


----------



## PalmRoyale

Little Mikawa nagura. Medium hard and blazing fast with a light slurry. Won it for just €17


----------



## valgard

soigne_west said:


> Some others I’ve picked up lately. Some of these will have to go.
> 
> View attachment 82466
> 
> 
> honyama renge suita was yours at one point I believe @valgard
> 
> View attachment 82467
> 
> 
> Ohira Renge Suita from Strata
> 
> View attachment 82468
> 
> 
> Ohira Uchi From Aframes
> 
> View attachment 82469
> 
> 
> Ohira Renge Uchi from Strata
> 
> View attachment 82470
> 
> 
> Some soft random uchi


yeah, the big soft suita was mine at one point. Very clean stone, a little softer than I prefer but it did great on some knives and would give a really nice edge too.


----------



## Majbjorn

My small jnat collection. Will hopefully grow in the future .






Yanigoshima asagi





A soft, soft Mizukihara renge uchigumori. Hard to capture the details in this one.


----------



## Matt Zilliox

dig that soft uchi


----------



## valgard




----------



## Majbjorn

Matt Zilliox said:


> dig that soft uchi


Thanks! It’s a real cheat stone. From Namikawa


----------



## Matt Zilliox

My naturals. Need to put some up for sale








The suitas




The uchis


----------



## kayman67

This makes me feel so much better! And almost normal


----------



## Matt Zilliox

From top left to bottom right... and roughly courses to finest. 
Red aoto, aizu, natsuya, ao suita, marouyama tomae, marou shiro, shobu suita, okudo shiro suita, soft uchi, mid soft uchi, middle uchi, jibiki uchi, narutaki kiita, unknown finisher, godly koppa, nakayama iromono


----------



## valgard

Matt Zilliox said:


> My naturals. Need to put some up for sale
> View attachment 88479
> 
> View attachment 88477
> 
> The suitas
> View attachment 88480
> 
> The uchis
> View attachment 88481


That escalated quickly


----------



## valgard

Matt Zilliox said:


> The uchis
> View attachment 88481



Third from the left looks a lot like a suita to me from here.


----------



## Matt Zilliox

valgard said:


> Third from the left looks a lot like a suita to me from here.


its certainly possible. harder than any of the other suitas i have. the stone gives a very fine high gloss finish with lots of nuance and definition.
For me its a keeper stone, no matter what it is.
and yes, escalated too quickly... the COVID effect. Four of the stones were lost in the mail for quite a while (2-3 months), and i never thought I'd see them. Then they showed up! by that time i had made other plans, haha. i really do need to sell off a few to those in need, i don't polish enough knives to justify all of these.


----------



## D J

Got my first Okudo Suita. Few months ago now, I always wanted to try okudo. To me it's one of the legend stones. Never did I imagine I would get one like this. The line running across near one end is no problem. The grinding power is like what I've heard about okudo and has definitely met my expectations, on a wusthof 120mm ikon it made a mirror finish while on some vg10 and harder steels it was kind of like mirror hiding behind the fog, it makes a fine edge with bite. The small stone ( aizu ) was a gift, which came with the package. Both stones needed to be flattened


----------



## D J

Package arrived today. Ohira Ao renge suita. Shiki Uchigumori from Maruo, a shima and a koma nagura. I haven't had time to play with them yet  but am looking forward to


----------



## Matt Zilliox

wow, gorgeous suita


----------



## valgard

Nicely sized Akapin


----------



## kingdingelling

Look at this beauty. Maruoyama Ao Suita Renge.


----------



## D J

That's a lovely stone


----------



## Hassanbensober

Super happy this one finally made it off the boat. Been a 3 month wait I figured it lost at sea. 8 lb unknown karasu I put about 2 hours working on the face and I’m pretty happy with the progress. The bottom is completely unstable so its a WIP


----------



## DHunter86

kingdingelling said:


> Look at this beauty. Maruoyama Ao Suita Renge.


This stone is just gorgeous!


----------



## childermass

Hassanbensober said:


> Super happy this one finally made it off the boat. Been a 3 month wait I figured it lost at sea. 8 lb unknown karasu I put about 2 hours working on the face and I’m pretty happy with the progress. The bottom is completely unstable so its a WIP View attachment 89581
> View attachment 89582


Nice Stone!
Time to get some wood and start building an equally gorgeous base


----------



## Forty Ounce

New stones!


----------



## valgard

An old favorite, relatively soft Aiiwatani kiita


----------



## valgard

Not showing in these pictures but a very red akapin Ikimurasaki with some bits of namazu


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

A couple I recently picked up.

Ohira karasu 1.6kg




Hatanaka Ohira renge suita 1.2kg


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

A couple more.

Shinden suita




Ozuku karasu


----------



## D J

Wow, very beautiful stones. It will be a shame if or when the stamps have to be removed. I received a new Ohira suita over a week ago now. I am hoping it will be the last stone I will buy. But not sure it will be. It's 1077 grams, I've painted some clear varnish on it. So have to wait a bit longer before I use it.
David


----------



## DHunter86

Very beautiful stones... always love the colours on Shiro Suitas. 



AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> A couple more.
> 
> Shinden suita
> View attachment 92379
> 
> Ozuku karasu
> View attachment 92381



These stones look somewhat familiar, especially the Shinden suita, were they from eBay?


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

DHunter86 said:


> Very beautiful stones... always love the colours on Shiro Suitas.
> 
> 
> 
> These stones look somewhat familiar, especially the Shinden suita, were they from eBay?


Nope from here: Japanese Natural Whetstone Shinden Shiro (White) Suita 30' Size from Kyoto *F/S* (2020081825)


----------



## DHunter86

Ah I see, no wonder they looked familiar. The seller runs a store on eBay as well, from which I have bought some stones from. In his parcels, he includes a flyer that points to the website you bought from.

Edit: I've found that for the more expensive items, Ikkyu lists them both on eBay and their website: and it's cheaper to buy direct (no eBay seller fees).


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

A few new ones to try:
Umajiyama Vintage Iromono





Wakasa koppa


----------



## DHunter86

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> A few new ones to try:
> Umajiyama Vintage Iromono
> View attachment 93032



Nice one, I was eyeing that stone for a bit, but am currently out of stone budget (and quota...). Also lots of suitas on their page that are catching my eye

Do share your experience after you've had a chance to play with them, only if you're up for it of course.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

I probably shouldn't be spending since I'm now a student, old habits


----------



## DHunter86

lucky my better half stops me, else I'd be on a spending spree too...


----------



## Matt Zilliox

DHunter86 said:


> Nice one, I was eyeing that stone for a bit, but am currently out of stone budget (and quota...). Also lots of suitas on their page that are catching my eye
> 
> Do share your experience after you've had a chance to play with them, only if you're up for it of course.


yes, lets see how these stones polish, not just look!


----------



## naader

Don't think I'll ever forget this stamp. So pretty.


----------



## Matt Zilliox

its a suita kinda night.. Tenjou is a more course and muddy suita. The Marou shirosuita is my workhorse prepolisher. I love this stones feel. The last suita is s mystery, its hard, Fine, and shows off the details. Let's see how it goes


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

I've been on a karasu trend lately, this one is (also) Ohira.


----------



## DHunter86

Congrats on nabbing this one as well  

Just out of curiosity, were the cracks on it severe, or just cosmetic? I'd like to get an understanding of this seller's descriptions.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

DHunter86 said:


> Congrats on nabbing this one as well
> 
> Just out of curiosity, were the cracks on it severe, or just cosmetic? I'd like to get an understanding of this seller's descriptions.


Haven't got it in yet, but the other two I got from this seller were better than described. I've read all the descriptions for most of their offerings and they appear to be pretty honest and straight forward.


----------



## DHunter86

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

DHunter86 said:


> Congrats on nabbing this one as well
> 
> Just out of curiosity, were the cracks on it severe, or just cosmetic? I'd like to get an understanding of this seller's descriptions.


I can't believe it came from Japan in two days, but I have it. I don't know where the crack in the description is, its in that great of shape. Beautiful stone.

BTW, DHL was the carrier.


----------



## DHunter86

Thanks for the update! Glad it was better than expected. 

With them you have a choice of FedEx, DHL or Japan Post. They told me they've been using FedEx or DHL for packages above 2kg, as it's cheaper that way.


----------



## Froztitanz

It's been awhile since I've last posted. Ohira Suminagashi Sunashi Renge Suita.


----------



## Unstoppabo

Froztitanz said:


> It's been awhile since I've last posted. Ohira Suminagashi Sunashi Renge Suita.
> View attachment 94565



Holy stamps!! #sexyink 

Is the suminagashi referring to the renge pattern?


----------



## Froztitanz

Unstoppabo said:


> Holy stamps!! #sexyink
> 
> Is the suminagashi referring to the renge pattern?


Its referring to the swashes of black, which look like black calligraphy ink floating on the surface of water.


----------



## valgard

Nakayama tamagohiro suita


----------



## Hanmak17

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> I've been on a karasu trend lately, this one is (also) Ohira.
> View attachment 93667
> View attachment 93668
> View attachment 93669


Wow!


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Red Ohira for small knives








Ozuku karasu for probably razors


----------



## spaceconvoy

Finally have enough natural stones to be considered a "collection." I played around with them today, alternating scratch patterns at different angles to keep track. All are in the medium range:

- Tamba Aoto purchased from MetalMaster in 2013
- Ikarashi purchased from JNS in 2016 (yes, I'm lazy and should flatten it more thoroughly)
- Vintage Numata of unknown origin picked up on BST last month

Considering how hard and un-muddy the Aoto is, I was a little surprised to notice I had to go down to a GS500 to remove all of its scratches. At the same time it gives the shiniest polish, and seems like it has the widest grit range.

The Ikarashi was about what you'd expect from the forum chatter. Scratches were removed by a King Neo 800, the highest grit synthetic I have at the moment. Pretty middle of the road, maybe I'm just not a fan of how weird-feeling and chalky it is.

The Numata is the finest of the bunch, supposedly a vintage stone from a finer vein than modern Numatas. @childermass estimated it as high as 3k which seems about right, and scratches were removed by the other naturals. Polish is hazier than the Aoto, and much more uniform than both other stones. Seems like it has the tightest range of grit, and produced the best looking kasumi following the King Neo.

I like these mediums because they give a nice useable edge. They're all on the harder side, which seems to be my preference. Lord help me if I get the urge for a finishing stone, the medium range is enough of a rabbit hole for my taste (do I need an Aizu next?)


----------



## Matt Zilliox

i think my numata is my favorite midgrit, its a goodpolisher as well as giving the nastiest edge of any of my midgrits. id estimate mine at 2-3k as well, like a harder version of my aoto


----------



## naader

Matt Zilliox said:


> i think my numata is my favorite midgrit, its a goodpolisher as well as giving the nastiest edge of any of my midgrits. id estimate mine at 2-3k as well, like a harder version of my aoto


They don't all come like that one. Numata has a half dozen sources. I kinda miss yours so I got a bunch more lol


----------



## childermass

Matt Zilliox said:


> i think my numata is my favorite midgrit, its a goodpolisher as well as giving the nastiest edge of any of my midgrits. id estimate mine at 2-3k as well, like a harder version of my aoto





naader said:


> They don't all come like that one. Numata has a half dozen sources. I kinda miss yours so I got a bunch more lol


Mine and the one from naader could win a look alike contest so no surprise they act so similar.


----------



## spaceconvoy

Watanabe has one that might be similar (page 8, number 7) but hard to tell because it hasn't been lapped. The roughly cleaved divots look exactly like those on the back of my stone.


----------



## naader

spaceconvoy said:


> Watanabe has one that might be similar (page 8, number 7) but hard to tell because it hasn't been lapped. The roughly cleaved divots look exactly like those on the back of my stone.


He is also asking about 260 usd lmfao. Crazy high for a stone in that condition.


----------



## spaceconvoy

Yeah, all his prices are ridiculous


----------



## Jaszer13

20% off JNS' at JNS through 10/11!


----------



## DHunter86

Finally picked up the Ikarashi I always wanted to try from JNS.


----------



## IronBalloon

Got my very first jnat the other day. What a rabbit hole this world is!






A friend hooked me up with the above Maruoyama Shirosuita. Got a nice mud going, I didn’t use anything to get the slurry going; just slapped the knife on and went to town.


----------



## Robert Lavacca

What can I say.. love me some morihei aizu


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Continuing down the hole...

Nakayama 2kg+ karasu











Large Red Ohira













Inexpensive Nakayama asagi but looks kiita


----------



## jwthaparc

I attached my asagi to this base I made. I'm no woodworker so it could be better. Im happy with it though. 

One thing that sucks is that slanted part wasn't there before. Like an idiot, I attached the base with epoxy, then afterwards I decided you know what I could fix that side of the base with my belt sander a bit more. Next thing I know a chunk of my stone gets broken off, and I just smoothed it over. Its decent sized so maybe it will work for some kind of fingerstones or something. Dunno


----------



## jwthaparc

spaceconvoy said:


> View attachment 97352
> 
> Finally have enough natural stones to be considered a "collection." I played around with them today, alternating scratch patterns at different angles to keep track. All are in the medium range:
> 
> - Tamba Aoto purchased from MetalMaster in 2013
> - Ikarashi purchased from JNS in 2016 (yes, I'm lazy and should flatten it more thoroughly)
> - Vintage Numata of unknown origin picked up on BST last month
> 
> Considering how hard and un-muddy the Aoto is, I was a little surprised to notice I had to go down to a GS500 to remove all of its scratches. At the same time it gives the shiniest polish, and seems like it has the widest grit range.
> 
> The Ikarashi was about what you'd expect from the forum chatter. Scratches were removed by a King Neo 800, the highest grit synthetic I have at the moment. Pretty middle of the road, maybe I'm just not a fan of how weird-feeling and chalky it is.
> 
> The Numata is the finest of the bunch, supposedly a vintage stone from a finer vein than modern Numatas. @childermass
> I like these mediums because they give a nice useable edge. They're all on the harder side, which seems to be my preference. Lord help me if I get the urge for a finishing stone, the medium range is enough of a rabbit hole for my taste (do I need an Aizu next?)



I find from the one finisher I have that the edge is actually really good for the kitchen. Its polished, of course, but it has the bite you would expect from a midrange synthetic.


----------



## YG420

Just got in a Maruka brick, excited to try it. Looks to have some karasu on the bottom, too bad there wasnt more of it lol.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Ohira renge suita


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

A few more.

Another ohira renge suita for razors












Shoubudani koppa...love the colors on this.









Nakayama kiita 












Aizu


----------



## Mathias Z.

Hi fellow J-Nat-Lovers

I would like to know if any of you have experience with different hardness Ohira Renge Suita? I would like to get one as a finisher for my guytos (white 1 and 2, blue 1 and 2, ...), does not necessarely need to be a from Ohira, but they are recommended a lot. I was looking at Aframes, Watanabe, Japanavenue, JNS, ... they are often very different in hardness but mostly are described as good finishers for kitchen knives. So does it make a big difference it the stone is middle hardness or more on the harder side? How does this affect sharpening? Feeling, burr refining, etc. ? I want a fast stone that gives me slurry instantly. What else could you recommend if not an Ohira Renge Suita? Also heard good things about Maruoyama - how do the different suitas compare to each other? I search for a fast stone that gives me a very crisp, aggressive edge with lots of BITE! Any recommendations?


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Mathias Z. said:


> Hi fellow J-Nat-Lovers
> 
> I would like to know if any of you have experience with different hardness Ohira Renge Suita? I would like to get one as a finisher for my guytos (white 1 and 2, blue 1 and 2, ...), does not necessarely need to be a from Ohira, but they are recommended a lot. I was looking at Aframes, Watanabe, Japanavenue, JNS, ... they are often very different in hardness but mostly are described as good finishers for kitchen knives. So does it make a big difference it the stone is middle hardness or more on the harder side? How does this affect sharpening? Feeling, burr refining, etc. ? I want a fast stone that gives me slurry instantly. What else could you recommend if not an Ohira Renge Suita? Also heard good things about Maruoyama - how do the different suitas compare to each other? I search for a fast stone that gives me a very crisp, aggressive edge with lots of BITE! Any recommendations?


Doesn't have to be an ohira suite renge, but I'm not one to ask cause I have 6. They are pricy and lately have been very pricy...see JNS for what I mean. Anyways, generally speaking the softer for lesser grit, and hard for polishing, although and suita probably fits polishing grit for anything. Ohiras are usually recommended for knives. What are you going to get?


----------



## Mathias Z.

enough knives around, mostly in shirogami2, 1, aogami 1 and 2, some SG steel, and Ginsan. But I would like a stone that gives me good bite but does not take off too much steel when sharpening. I don´t want to go through the 1000 / 5000 routine every time. Touching up with the Naniwa 5000 or Traditional 2000 does not seem to work that well, I only get back little bite that does not last long. So I thought maybe a Ohira could be a solution to that problem. Stone should be suitable for touch ups and give me bite while leaving a somewhat refined edge.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

I think an Ohira would meet your needs, although there a lot of cheaper alternatives. I just got an Aizu, yet to reach me that supposed to fulfill your needs. If you want polish or a shiny edge, the Ohira is suggested.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

This should be it for awhile.

Nakayama karasu 














Ozuku karasu


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

@AFKitchenknivesguy Jesus man you've single-handedly purchased all of ikkyujapanavenue's stock (I think, all the stones seem to look familiar now)  Well done


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> @AFKitchenknivesguy Jesus man you've single-handedly purchased all of ikkyujapanavenue's stock (I think, all the stones seem to look familiar now)  Well done


Yeah, karasu's are a love of mine and love their prices. Bought some JNS karasu's but they are pretty expensive in comparison.


----------



## musicman980

Just finished the teak base for this Kouzaki aoto. Hand carved recession to match the bottom of the raw ore. This stone gives quite a high level finish for an aoto, and a nice frosty jigane with slurry. I’m debating putting this one on the BST.


----------



## Froztitanz

Monster Ohira Karasu and Shoubudani Aisa.


----------



## DHunter86

love the Karasu!


----------



## jwthaparc

Here's my family photo, from coarsest to fines L to R. Tanba aoto, mystery suita, renge uchigumori, asagi. 




Here's my aoto, it's got some toxic lines, but hey, I still like it. 



Then the mystery suita. If anyone has any idea what it actually is by looking at it, please let me know. It has a very smooth finish, with lots of contrast. It's quite fast too. All around good stone except for its size and weird shape. 




Next is my tiny renge uchigumori. Such a beautiful little stone. It also gives a great finish.




Finally the asagi. This is a razor stone really. I'm able to use it for knives, but its definitely not what people would call a beginner friendly stone. Very hard, and very fine. I love it though.


----------



## Hassanbensober

Mystery stone look like some maruoyama aisa I’ve seen . Really nice chunk of uchi as well.


----------



## jwthaparc

Hassanbensober said:


> Mystery stone look like some maruoyama aisa I’ve seen . Really nice chunk of uchi as well.


I looked up maruoyama, and I definitely see the stone you are talking about. I think the person called it a maruoyama aisa koppa, it looks just like my stone, except mine is super thin, and that one is thick. 

I haven't about maruoyama before, and aisa stones I only have a recollection of seeing once or twice. I have no idea what the characteristics of either would be generally. I can say the stone I have, acts very similar to my uchigumori, except it is way faster at removing metal. 

I also see some stuff labeled shiro suita that have a passing resemblance to this stone. Which is odd, because shiro means white to my understanding, so shouldn't it be a kuro suita or something?


----------



## Matt Zilliox

A murder of uchis


----------



## jwthaparc

Matt Zilliox said:


> A murder of uchis
> View attachment 104821


How much $ is in this picture? Gotta be well over 1000 bucks of uchigumori right here.


----------



## Matt Zilliox

jwthaparc said:


> How much $ is in this picture? Gotta be well over 1000 bucks of uchigumori right here.


Don't ruin the murder with money talk. They are priceless when you da uchi kuchi man


----------



## spaceconvoy

yeah man, a better question is how many hours of polishing is in that picture?


----------



## jwthaparc

spaceconvoy said:


> yeah man, a better question is how many hours of polishing is in that picture?


Probably a couple lifetimes.


----------



## PalmRoyale

A while ago I proclaimed I was done with jnats and I meant it. But there was one stone I never got around to trying and that's a black Tsushima nagura. I know a few temple carpenters in Japan who think highly of these stones and their recommendation was enough for me to pull the trigger. I'm glad I did because I absolutely love this stone. What really struck me at first is how incredibly clean and pure this stone is. It looks like a synthetic.


----------



## tcmx3

Ive tried to build myself a decent enough set to get started with some polishing:






Natsuya to start

Aizu next up, Ive not done an edge with this yet but have used it for a polish it seemed to do the job for that. I know these are really well regarded but I just haven't had a need to use it yet. Next time I really need to sharpen I'll just leave the edge as it comes off this one and see where it gets me.

Shobuodani x2 I dont know much about. the one on the left was listed as "level 2,5" by Maxim and I grabbed it during the BFCM stuff along with the Natsuya. Seems to be midish? Lots of little flecks in it and it pushed me over the free shipping limit so I rolled the dice on it. the next one is a stone I bought off BST like 5 years ago for less than 100 bucks. I know even less about it, other than it was listed as being a little harder and finer than most shobus, and it's definitely a little harder and finer than the other one. I've gotten some good edges off it and some dogshit ones too I dont really know. If you do, or just want to speculate, Im all ears.

Maruoyama Ao Suita I've been using this as my final edge stone since I got it. Nice stone but not exactly inexpensive

Oouchi from JKI quite a fine stone. I used it on my Tsourkan AEBL and it got really sharp I dunno I dont have a lot of commentary past that. One of the cheaper stones here though so no regrets. 

Sorry I dont have a ton to add I have recently acquired most of these as part of getting back into the hobby to try and more or less do away with my use of synthetics, so Ive done a few edges and have started cleaning up one knife's flats. Im also still open to suggestions re filling in blanks


----------



## Froztitanz

Shoubudani Karasu.


----------



## jwthaparc

Froztitanz said:


> Shoubudani Karasu.
> View attachment 105801


I wish I could have a chance to put a knife to a stone like this. Or even a lot of the suita's I see here. There are just so many jnats that are so far beyond what I can afford that I will likely never get a chance to try anything like them, and it makes me a little sad.


----------



## M1k3

Nothing fancy.

Oouchi






Aoto


----------



## tcmx3

uh someone should have warned me that polishing stones are addictive.

just bought a ha uchigumori from a-frames...


----------



## Badgertooth

Sangoyama. Never seen one before or since. Purest yellow and a splash of olive. She’s pretty nice.


----------



## 4wa1l

First natural, an Aiiwatani koppa.


----------



## Badgertooth

4wa1l said:


> First natural, an Aiiwatani koppa.View attachment 106578


Sexy little number


----------



## Hassanbensober

New aizu refused to live in its new dry home in the Midwest. Change in climates I think was it’s undoing. Instead of trying to glue it I had a good time making naguras with it.


----------



## Froztitanz

Starting the first post of 2021 with a bang. 

Shoubudani Karasu





Shoubudani Karasu Suita







Ohira Renge Suita







Shoubudani Suita with renge peeking through the sides.


----------



## cotedupy

Can I join...? I got my first yesterday, courtesy of BadgerT - a Maruoyama Shiro Suita. Quite an extravagance for me in terms of spending on a stone, but I thought if I was getting one I should do it properly. And buying from someone with load of experience and respect, and able to answer questions and offer advice certainly gave me confidence.

Used for the first time last night; behaves absolutely spot on how he described, and I was surprised not to find it too tricky. Though that was certainly helped by having experimented a bit with sharpening on slates I've found - the experience is far more similar to them than to my synthetic stones. When I started sharpening for the first time I was using inexpensive stones, and doing a lot of beaten up stainless knives for people, which took time, but with practice gave me quite a good understanding of the process. So when I moved to better stones and better knives I found them a doddle by comparison. This feels like that - having learnt on random slates by trial and error, I already understood a bit about slurry creation, management, and how to use stones that are a fair bit slower than synthetics.

Anyhow I rather liked it, and look forward to learning more about how to use...






(This second pic is more representative of the colour. The one above was taken near a swimming pool which was probably splashing a load of blue light around the place.)


----------



## tcmx3

cotedupy said:


> Can I join...? I got my first yesterday, courtesy of BadgerT - a Maruoyama Shiro Suita. Quite an extravagance for me in terms of spending on a stone, but I thought if I was getting one I should do it properly. And buying from someone with load of experience and respect, and able to answer questions and offer advice certainly gave me confidence.
> 
> Used for the first time last night; behaves absolutely spot on how he described, and I was surprised not to find it too tricky. Though that was certainly helped by having experimented a bit with sharpening on slates I've found - the experience is far more similar to them than to my synthetic stones. Anyhow I rather liked it, and look forward to learning more about how to use...
> 
> View attachment 109447
> 
> 
> (This second pic is more representative of the colour. The one above was taken near a swimming pool which was probably splashing a load of blue light around the place.)
> 
> View attachment 109448



killer, killer stone, and a great way to start.


----------



## cotedupy

tcmx3 said:


> killer, killer stone, and a great way to start.



 As I said - having Badger's recommendation and reading others' opinions on them here definitely gave me the confidence. Am loving my first impressions, and really looking forward to learning more.


----------



## Froztitanz

cotedupy said:


> As I said - having Badger's recommendation and reading others' opinions on them here definitely gave me the confidence. Am loving my first impressions, and really looking forward to learning more.


Welcome to the club.  Warning: It's a long and deep rabbit hole. I'm hopelessly lost in it, but loving every minute still.


----------



## Teryeki

Just joined the club this week and am already eyeing some lower grit JNATs hah
Okunomon suita from Ikkyu


----------



## GBT-Splint

First Jnat received a few days ago, Shoubudani from JNS, I have yet to understand it but it feels very smooth. Can't really say about the performances yet but I am happy with it, it's a pleasure to use, probably weird but I can't help it but to be obsessed with its earthy smell. Simply a different experience than synthetics.


----------



## Markcg

Been playing with my Shoubodani and Ohira Tomae from JNS, and I have to say I’m hooked! Just started sealing the bottom and sides today, and can’t wait for some new stones!


----------



## Joao lourenco

A shige kasumi
Uchi jito
Uchi hato
Koma nagura


----------



## YG420

Picked up some stones over the last few months,

A very clean, fast and fine Okudo suita:





probably the best uchigumori ive ever used, the line is non toxic







and two vintage nos aotos. i was told theyre from around 40 years ago. super easy to work with, muddy with no stray rocks. now i know what they mean when they say all the good aoto are long gone. pretty cool to see the old price tag on these too


----------



## D J

So many beautiful stones  jnat porn Haha. Great photos. Great stones


----------



## aaamax

Holy Crap those look good. Either you have exceptional stones or photography skills. The colors just pop.
Cheers.



Froztitanz said:


> Starting the first post of 2021 with a bang.
> 
> Shoubudani Karasu
> View attachment 108997
> 
> Shoubudani Karasu Suita
> View attachment 108998
> View attachment 108999
> 
> Ohira Renge Suita
> View attachment 109000
> View attachment 109001
> 
> Shoubudani Suita with renge peeking through the sides.
> View attachment 109002
> View attachment 109003


----------



## aaamax

Lol,
I just saw this:


GBT-Splint said:


> it's a pleasure to use, probably weird but I can't help it but to be obsessed with its earthy smell.



Glad to see that I am not the only wierdo. Hell, I'll sometimes just grab a stone so I can sniff it. Instant mood enhancer. Make it a touch damp first to really get the perfume to blossom. 

Each stone has its own character. Even within the same mine. Funny.


----------



## D J

I have often wondered about the smell of the first 2 naturals that I bought. Both stones were from the same seller. They have kind of an oily/smoky smell, reminds me of an old kerosene lamp. When I wet them for use, the smell disappears. There's no rainbow color when I spray water on them like when you see a puddle of water with oil floating on the surface. They work fine in use, although the yellow one, after awhile of use seems to get to a point where it gets a very smooth glassy feel, the blade begins to "skip and stick" it's like the stone has reached a limit and that's as far as it will go.


----------



## DHunter86

The smell likely comes from the sealant on the sides and base. As for the sharpening feel from the yellow one, likely it got loaded and starts burnishing instead of cutting. Managed correctly (pressure, slurry thickness etc.), it could bring out a lot of detail of the steel.


----------



## pgugger

Recently joined the jnat club so thought I’d post my new collection. Haven’t used some yet but really like the Aizu from Watanabe and Jun Sei Honyama from Bernal:









Sorry for the bad lighting.


----------



## doc

After two synthetic I got naturally stoned... Simple Ikarashi...I guess its an never ending story...


----------



## 4wa1l

Just picked up these from Ikkyu on ebay.

Nakayama Mizu Asagi and nagura left. Umajiyama Namito on the right.

Wanted to try some harder fine stones. Managed to get an ok finish from the Umajiyama so there's potential but there's a big learning curve with these harder stones. Hazy mirror type finish but still some contrast which is pretty nice. I really struggled to take a good photo of the finish.


----------



## killerloop

Some great ones here! Any fingerstones?


----------



## Froztitanz

My personal Japanese Natural Stone collection. 

From left to right, top to bottom. 

1. Natsuya (夏屋砥)
2. Aizu (会津砥)
3. Shiro Mikawa Nagura (白三河名倉) 
4. Kouzaki Aoto (神前青砥)
5. Ohira Karasu (大平カラス)
6. Ohira Renge Suminagashi Sunashi Suita (大平蓮華墨流し巣なし巣
7. Shoubudani Shiro Suita (菖蒲谷白巣板)
8. Shoubudani Karasu (菖蒲谷カラス)
9. Shoubudani Renge Suita (菖蒲谷蓮華巣板)
10. Nakayama Maruka Kiita Tomae (中山マルカ黄板戸前)
11. Shoubudani Maruka Asagi (菖蒲谷マルカ浅葱)


----------



## Joao lourenco

Tenkasumi


----------



## kingdingelling

Okudo Suita


----------



## Joao lourenco

Some mikawa nagura and uchi action


----------



## OsiKosi

Nakayama iromono
Nakayama asagi maruka
Heiji carbon


----------



## PalmRoyale

A sweet little 150x78mm suita of unknown origin. Paid just €65, including shipping, so who the hell cares what mine it's from.


----------



## AFKitchenknivesguy

Looks like an Ohira renge.


----------



## tcmx3

Since I last posted in this thread Ive picked up some more stones.

Top -> Bottom & Left -> Right

Uchigumori from the man himself (ie Nutmeg): the post office made me wait an eternity for this one for no reason. Has red renge on it and as you might guess coming from Nutmeg leaves a beautiful finish

Ohira Shiro Suita: this stone was sold to me at a significant discount because of the lines. However, I *LOVE* this stone. Great kasumi and leaves incredible edges. The first stone I acquired from Ohira, a tiny bit harder probably between 3.5 and 4 leaning towards the former. Lots of renge. This stone is the one that really accelerated the acquisition of these things for me.

Shobudani Shiro Suita: a little harder than the Ohira but also not quite as fine. It seems to cut a bit faster as well. Im not sure what to say about this one; I use it interchangeably with the other suitas

Maruoyama Shiro Suita: this smaller stone I got from Mirua for not very much money. Like the Ao suita from this mine I posted, I really like this stone a lot. I would point to this actually a pretty great intro into natural stones; it's a bit softer than the other suitas and super easy to use. Ok so it's not the end-game level stone the larger renge laden ao suita is but for what I paid a real bargain IMO

Shobudani Nashiji: This stone was featured on the Bernal instagram account and eventually I broke down and bought it. Dont have a ton of miles on this one; I quickly touched up the edge and did a maybe 5 minute polish on my Mazaki on this and the edge seemed really, really nice. Maybe between my Aizu and one of the suitas? The polish was beautiful too; as it was on a kiridashi as well with loads of contrast. I have a feeling this stone and I are going to become good friends

Uchigumori: this one I got with the top still in chiseled form and well as you can see it's got some pretty serious inclusions, which are a bummer and reduce the usable surface of the stone a bit. Still, it's a nice stone that does make a very attractive finish. Well with stones you win some you lose some; at least the stone itself is nice other than the lines.

Ohira Suita: this is one of Maxim's nice wooden box ones that I got off BST. Distinctly softer than the other Ohira suita, instant sea of inky black as soon as you put your knife on it. The best stone I own with a price tag to match. I dunno it's basically perfect, the only thing I wish is that it were 3x as tall.

Okudo Tenjou Suita: this extremely suspicious stone was acquired from ebay for less than 100 dollars. Surprisingly, it's not so bad. It leaves a finish with a LOT of contrast and extremely dark cladding, almost like a synthetic, and a really aggressive edge. Not all that bad but Im definitely not sure about rolling the dice like this on a regular basis lol. It's definitely on the small side, to the degree where I probably wouldnt want to sharpen a 240 or larger knife on it, but it wasnt a problem for a little 150 petty or 165 funayuki


----------



## Carbondx

Mark my first day joining the forum


----------



## doc

Shobudani Tomae & Shiro Suita


----------



## Martyn

Dedicating my first post here to these two - a 3kg monster Mizukihara Uchigumori and a smaller yet still big gorgeous 1.6kg shiro suita from unknown mine


----------



## tcmx3

tfw a 1.6kg suita is your smaller stone


----------



## Froztitanz

Maruoyama shiro suita, Shiro suita sunashi, aisa karasu and tajima.


----------



## dAtron

My second JNAT. A small Maruoyama Shiro suita. It cuts extremely fast. Very, very happy with this one.


----------



## Corradobrit1

Anyone have an idea which mine this Jnat is from? No stamps and described as Namazu, renge suita. The coloration, distribution of purple renge looks a lot like these old mine stones from Umajiyama








Tanaka Toishi Umaji Suita Renge Natural Stone (#007)


Detailed SpecBrand: Tanaka Toishi 田中砥石工業所 Product Type: Natural Stone Producing Area: Kyoto/ Japan Layer: Suita Color: Renge Soaking Requirement: Not required Size: 202 x 73 x 34mm Weight: 1190g Update: March 12, 2022




hitohira-japan.com


----------



## Martyn

Pretty rare Wakasa suita -


----------



## spaceconvoy

Picked up this Aizu from BST, supposedly a vintage stone and performs like it, surpassing my expectations. Just as good at deburring as my Ikarashi but noticeably finer. Has that great Aizu/Ikarashi smell, like a flower growing next to the ocean.


----------



## PineWood

My first natural stone. I read somewere that the first stone should be an aoto. I bought this one off ebay from Ikkyu Japan. It seemed like a good deal for a stone just over 2 kg. It absorbs a little bit of water but it is quite hard and fine. Advertised as grit 5000-6000 and it is cutting very slow, more of a polisher. As it's a nice stone my wife agrees it stays in the kitchen for quick touch-ups.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

PineWood said:


> My first natural stone. I read somewere that the first stone should be an aoto. I bought this one off ebay from Ikkyu Japan. It seemed like a good deal for a stone just over 2 kg. It absorbs a little bit of water but it is quite hard and fine. Advertised as grit 5000-6000 and it is cutting very slow, more of a polisher. As it's a nice stone my wife agrees it stays in the kitchen for quick touch-ups.
> View attachment 123971



gah! you're the one who bought it. I went to go check it out the next day after seeing it the night before, and it had disappeared. Usually their stuff doesn't sell and they relist auctions, glad to see it's in good hands.


----------



## cotedupy

I used this progression for sharpening last night, and oh my did it work well!

The Shoubudani Tomae on the right is a great finisher, albeit perhaps not quite as much of a looker as some of the posts on this thread. But the patterns on the middle stone are pretty pretty .


----------



## kingdingelling

Corradobrit1 said:


> Anyone have an idea which mine this Jnat is from? No stamps and described as Namazu, renge suita. The coloration, distribution of purple renge looks a lot like these old mine stones from Umajiyama
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tanaka Toishi Umaji Suita Renge Natural Stone (#007)
> 
> 
> Detailed SpecBrand: Tanaka Toishi 田中砥石工業所 Product Type: Natural Stone Producing Area: Kyoto/ Japan Layer: Suita Color: Renge Soaking Requirement: Not required Size: 202 x 73 x 34mm Weight: 1190g Update: March 12, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hitohira-japan.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 122610
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 122611




Different layer but looks quite similar to my Ohira Uchigumori...


----------



## domrun

kingdingelling said:


> Different layer but looks quite similar to my Ohira Uchigumori...


Beautiful stone !
The upper part looks like cherry blossoms


----------



## KO88

Martyn said:


> Pretty rare Wakasa suita -
> View attachment 123840
> 
> View attachment 123841




May I ask you how is it? How quick and what edge it gives, how's the polish?

I could buy one and didn't pull the trigger... I've Wakasa Asagi and it's nice...


----------



## Martyn

KO88 said:


> May I ask you how is it? How quick and what edge it gives, how's the polish?
> 
> I could buy one and didn't pull the trigger... I've Wakasa Asagi and it's nice...


I have not used it yet - still waiting for the lacquer to dry...
I expect mirror/semi mirror finish with contrast. Let me share some finish photos with you once I tried it


----------



## Corradobrit1

spaceconvoy said:


> View attachment 123953
> View attachment 123954
> 
> Picked up this Aizu from BST, supposedly a vintage stone and performs like it, surpassing my expectations. Just as good at deburring as my Ikarashi but noticeably finer. Has that great Aizu/Ikarashi smell, like a flower growing next to the ocean.


If you decide to let this one go, PM me.


----------



## refcast

I got a kaedeyama namito koppa. Dark blue-green. It cuts immediately. Feels like aoto but finer. Same sort of tiny-pebbly grit-cutting feeling before mud is made. Not much mud at all though. Dark swarf with a little bit of slurry. Not inky and super fine like finishers or synthetics, but its mostly black. Feels like a 5000 grit or so. Not floaty slick. It doesn't have or make a cushion of mud. It doesn't need much water to cut and it doesn't need water refreshing often at all. It reminds me of a synthetic stone -- kinda like a shapton. Iron isn't hazy or grey. Steel is bright and iron is a little more copper color/dull.


----------



## Kiru

dAtron said:


> My second JNAT. A small Maruoyama Shiro suita. It cuts extremely fast. Very, very happy with this one. View attachment 122108


Looks amazing! Doesn’t look that small


----------



## evilla01

dAtron said:


> My second JNAT. A small Maruoyama Shiro suita. It cuts extremely fast. Very, very happy with this one. View attachment 122108


Been looking for a Maruoyama. Heard good things about them.


----------



## musicman980

Full size Ikarashi and a fuller size Aizu.


----------



## Corradobrit1

musicman980 said:


> Full size Ikarashi and a fuller size Aizu.
> 
> View attachment 126992
> View attachment 126994


Thats not a stone its a boulder


----------



## Chamber

musicman980 said:


> Full size Ikarashi and a fuller size Aizu.
> 
> View attachment 126992
> View attachment 126994



Oh my lord!


----------



## Bcos17

My God that Aizu. How? Where can I buy?


----------



## jedy617

My first Jnat came in, a Hideriyama from JNI along with some fingerstones. My Hinoura santoku had pretty much lost its kasumi and its been thinned a few times over the years. This was my first attempt at a restoration. Not too bad considering it was my first go, still some low spots that didn't really get polished out but overall I'm very happy.






Before:







After:


----------



## Hassanbensober

musicman980 said:


> Full size Ikarashi and a fuller size Aizu.
> 
> View attachment 126992
> View attachment 126994


Happy to see you got that one man.


----------



## Justablacktee

jedy617 said:


> My first Jnat came in, a Hideriyama from JNI along with some fingerstones. My Hinoura santoku had pretty much lost its kasumi and its been thinned a few times over the years. This was my first attempt at a restoration. Not too bad considering it was my first go, still some low spots that didn't really get polished out but overall I'm very happy.
> 
> View attachment 126995
> 
> 
> Before:
> 
> View attachment 126997
> 
> 
> 
> After:
> View attachment 126996



Nice ! Where are those finger stones from ? Looking to grab some at some point...


----------



## DHunter86

musicman980 said:


> Full size Ikarashi and a fuller size Aizu.



So it was you who got it in the end...


----------



## jedy617

Justablacktee said:


> Nice ! Where are those finger stones from ? Looking to grab some at some point...











Kiita Fingerstones


Selected Japanese natural sharpening stones Toishi, Handmade by Best Blade smiths Japanese Knives, Razors and Tools




www.japanesenaturalstones.com


----------



## musicman980

Squared up the sides of the aizu a bit, and gave it some new shoes.


----------



## dAtron

musicman980 said:


> Squared up the sides of the aizu a bit, and gave it some new shoes.
> 
> View attachment 127339
> View attachment 127338
> View attachment 127337


That is a bloody Monolith. Looks magnificent.


----------



## phoka

Great work and your sharpening station is amazing!


----------



## tcmx3

sometimes I wish I had never gotten into these things because I feel like I'd be able to resist a lot better when I saw one with the usual litany of reasons.

but, fortunately/unfortunately I simply could not resist this one on ikku for barely over 100 bucks:


----------



## captaincaed

#first_world_anarchists


----------



## KO88

Martyn said:


> I have not used it yet - still waiting for the lacquer to dry...
> I expect mirror/semi mirror finish with contrast. Let me share some finish photos with you once I tried it



Still haven't tried it?


----------



## jedy617

Took advantage of the Strata sale and grabbed this Hakka Tomae. Sealing the edges now!


----------



## musicman980

Nakayama Maruka kiita. Very busy and colorful pattern, and hard.


----------



## Krakorak

musicman980 said:


> Nakayama Maruka kiita. Very busy and colorful pattern, and hard.
> 
> View attachment 129053
> View attachment 129056
> View attachment 129054
> View attachment 129055


Nice stone, I also considered to bid on it :-D : https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/c905169901
Btw., Watanabe has a pretty similarly coloured maruka here: Famous brand stones from Kyoto, Shiga and Ibaraki | watanabe blade - nr. 19


----------



## Martyn

Bought this Jo Haku from a local vendor. Definitely my most good looking stone and the grit # is much higher than advertised -


----------



## Hassanbensober

Love these neglected fixer uppers. I was expecting coarse but the stone is quite fine. One of the better stones I’ve came across.


----------



## inferno

does anyone know what it says on my rock?


----------



## Corradobrit1

inferno said:


> does anyone know what it says on my rock?
> 
> View attachment 130167


Can't read it. Upside down


----------



## DHunter86

If I'm reading it right, it should be Atago Suita Yama. 

Then if the stamp is legit then it's an Atagoyama Suita.


----------



## inferno

thanks!


----------



## musicman980

Very old aoto with hand saw marks, which means it’s likely early 20th century or before. Medium hard and quite fine. 215 x 65 x 67


----------



## M1k3

inferno said:


> does anyone know what it says on my rock?
> 
> View attachment 130167


"200% extra in price"


----------



## Corradobrit1

M1k3 said:


> "200% extra in price"


Or "this way up"


----------



## inferno

Corradobrit1 said:


> Or "this way up"



the bottom is unusable as it is now. probably several mm of non good stone there. "kawa"


----------



## inferno

M1k3 said:


> "200% extra in price"



yeah probably. unfortunately.

i got this stone because its a suita without lines or cracks in it. and since its not a ohira it was cheaper.

did some testing yesterday and its not particularly fast if you ask me. but i'm used to shaptons. so i dont really know whats fast and slow here.

it also appears to be a real suita because i can see small holes/pores in it.


----------



## runninscared

inferno said:


> yeah probably. unfortunately.
> 
> i got this stone because its a suita without lines or cracks in it. and since its not a ohira it was cheaper.
> 
> did some testing yesterday and its not particularly fast if you ask me. but i'm used to shaptons. so i dont really know whats fast and slow here.
> 
> it also appears to be a real suita because i can see small holes/pores in it.



Can I see a pic of the kawa? Generally kawa(the skin) can just be lapped off from what I’ve encountered. Also okudo/shinden are generally referred to as the king and queen of suita respectively and also get expensive.

As far as speed is concerned there are absolutely Jnats that leave black swarf as fast as shaptons but it’s going to cost you.


----------



## inferno

i lapped some of it off. not sure if i'm gonna do all of it. i just needed it fairly flat under so it doesn't wobble around in the holder.


----------



## Martyn

KO88 said:


> Still haven't tried it?


The stone resulted in almost mirror core and semi mirror cladding, as I had expected. It is pretty hard (my guess would be around 4.0-4.5). It is actually pretty fast given the hardness - I think that is due to the presence of su.


----------



## Froztitanz

Natsuyasssssssss


----------



## musicman980

Okudo shiro suita ao renge. 200 x 80 x 52


----------



## Pie

My humble application for probationary membership to jnat club - old asagi courtesy of @musicman980 and ozuku koppa. Bunch of random nagura just itching to be tested out too. The rabbit hole is slippery and I can’t see the bottom


----------



## inferno

the rabbit hole is deep. prepare to go broke


----------



## Froztitanz

Pie said:


> My humble application for probationary membership to jnat club - old asagi courtesy of @musicman980 and ozuku koppa. Bunch of random nagura just itching to be tested out too. The rabbit hole is slippery and I can’t see the bottom View attachment 131438


Welcome to the club. The hole is never-ending. I started less than 2 years ago... I'm royally screwed.


----------



## Pie

Froztitanz said:


> Welcome to the club. The hole is never-ending. I started less than 2 years ago... I'm royally screwed.
> View attachment 131734


Thank you. Epic stones by the way.


----------



## Froztitanz




----------



## musicman980

Shiro suita with many colors of renge. Hard, fast, and fine.


----------



## musicman980

The latest addition to the kit is another uchigumori from Ohira, this time a Hato.


----------



## PineWood

New arrival, my second J-nat. I wanted an Ohira Shiro Suita Aka Renge for a long time, but usually they are very expensive, or too small, or with toxic lines... I found this somewhat affordable stone from Shinishi, it's a soft stone as well so should be easy to use. Anybody knows what the pencil marks mean?


----------



## Froztitanz

Yeah, it says Shoubu, an abbreviation of the Shoubudani mine. 菖蒲(谷) 

2 Renge Suitas.


----------



## PineWood

Froztitanz said:


> Yeah, it says Shoubu, an abbreviation of the Shoubudani mine. 菖蒲(谷)


Thanks! My bad, it's a Shiro Suita but not from Ohira, it was advertised as from Shoubudani mine.


----------



## tcmx3

PineWood said:


> Thanks! My bad, it's a Shiro Suita but not from Ohira, it was advertised as from Shoubudani mine.



a lot of really great stones come out of Shoubudani. of my own collection I have 4 that are just killer, including a renge suita.


----------



## musicman980

Two new full size Aizu. Both are of the softer variety but the one with the orange rash is blazing fast.


----------



## DHunter86

How's the polish on the one with the orange rash? 

I was really intrigued by it, but was on the fence about bidding for it due to the potential crack lines.


----------



## musicman980

DHunter86 said:


> How's the polish on the one with the orange rash?
> 
> I was really intrigued by it, but was on the fence about bidding for it due to the potential crack lines.



It's definitely a coarser finish, coarser than my other two Aizu. Once you work the mud a bit it will likely give pretty great butchery edges, the only thing is it's only maybe 60 wide on average. The only thing I knew for certain was that it was an Aizu. I've seen at least one other with the orange-brown rash, and the lines do look very ominous but I was feeling lucky. 

Between that one and my huge papa bear Aizu, the smaller Aizu in that picture might have to go.


----------



## DHunter86

Definitely can see that you're an Aizu fan. I had a very pretty greenish one split in two for me just due to water absorption. 

Good Aizus wider than 6cm are getting hard to come by these days.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

DHunter86 said:


> Definitely can see that you're an Aizu fan. I had a very pretty greenish one split in two for me just due to water absorption.


oh man, I was hoping I could get away without sealing mine but I guess I need to pick up some cashew lacquer or marine grade sealing sauce thingy

thanks (and hope your aizu feels better soon)


----------



## musicman980

DHunter86 said:


> Definitely can see that you're an Aizu fan. I had a very pretty greenish one split in two for me just due to water absorption.
> 
> Good Aizus wider than 6cm are getting hard to come by these days.





nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> oh man, I was hoping I could get away without sealing mine but I guess I need to pick up some cashew lacquer or marine grade sealing sauce thingy
> 
> thanks (and hope your aizu feels better soon)



Dang I was thinking the same thing, NKW. Spar urethane is amazing.


----------



## Froztitanz

Natsuyas galore.


----------



## doc

Shobudani


----------



## musicman980

Big, beautiful, and clean asagi kan.


----------



## musicman980

Suminagashi suita on one side, uchigumori on the other.


----------



## EricEricEric

Hello, I’m new here 

This weekend I saw an old Japanese man having a yard sale, so I stopped by for a quick look. I saw many amazing things that I either didn’t know what it was or just couldn’t afford. 

I was about to leave until I saw this stone he was using as a door stop. It had some Japanese writing on it and I happened to be in need of a door stop myself. 

Does anyone know what it says? Is it any good? I’m just using it as a door stop for now until I have more information.

I paid $20 for it, I’m kind of worried I got ripped off…


----------



## musicman980

EricEricEric said:


> View attachment 136026
> View attachment 136027
> 
> 
> Hello, I’m new here
> 
> This weekend I saw an old Japanese man having a yard sale, so I stopped by for a quick look. I saw many amazing things that I either didn’t know what it was or just couldn’t afford.
> 
> I was about to leave until I saw this stone he was using as a door stop. It had some Japanese writing on it and I happened to be in need of a door stop myself.
> 
> Does anyone know what it says? Is it any good? I’m just using it as a door stop for now until I have more information.
> 
> I paid $20 for it, I’m kind of worried I got ripped off…



Oh c’mon he was not...are you serious lol? I’ll give you $40 for it! 

JK - first things first get that off the ground and away from any doors. It looks like an amazing stone that could be quite valuable. What are it’s dimensions?


----------



## musicman980

I believe the stamps say: Nakayama mine, tomae, special price goods/products.


----------



## EricEricEric

So I know I’m crazy, but he talked me into buying a few more


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu

@EricEricEric goddamn son you made out good


----------



## refcast

EricEricEric said:


> So I know I’m crazy, but he talked me into buying a few more



Yeah, you got the greatest stone deal I've ever read about on the forums 

The Nakayama alone is extremely pure (usually there are differences in color or inclusions, etc), and I'm thinking around $800+. The dark blue one is likely a tsushima, which is around $180+ new. The white one with thin red lines is likely a suita, and in that size should be quite a bit $500+. All my uninformed estimates . . . but you can look at Japanese Natural Stones and Aframestokyo and Japan-Tool for similar prices. . . though how they sharpen, we don't know that yet until someone tries those exact stones, But we can suppose. . .


----------



## tcmx3

so either the dude was a sword polisher and that's the luckiest deal ever in the history of Jnats or our friend Eric is doing that whole "taking the piss" thing.

which strikes me as more likely that's probably 10 grand worth of stones and also a door stop would be in pretty bad shape.


----------



## EricEricEric

I’ll post them up in my own post so we can check them out.

Then you tell me your favorite one ?


----------



## tcmx3

EricEricEric said:


> I’ll post them up in my own post so we can check them out.
> 
> Then you tell me your favorite one ?



3rd from the bottom looks suspiciously like an Ohira Suita I paid 4 figures for.


----------



## EricEricEric

That stone is crazy fast!

The knife is under fluorescent light



tcmx3 said:


> 3rd from the bottom looks suspiciously like an Ohira Suita I paid 4 figures for.


----------



## spaceconvoy

tcmx3 said:


> so either the dude was a sword polisher and that's the luckiest deal ever in the history of Jnats or our friend Eric is doing that whole "taking the piss" thing.
> 
> which strikes me as more likely that's probably 10 grand worth of stones and also a door stop would be in pretty bad shape.


Need a couple of milk jugs for all the piss he's taking (way of the road buddy)


----------



## refcast

Yeah, I do agree its hard to tell whether he got them for that inexpensively or not, but at the least they are really pure stones in collector - grade condition and size.


----------



## cotedupy

Well here was a find... I got this off ebay for twenty-five of your finest Australian dollars. The person selling had bought it about ten years ago, and got it from an old guy who was a carpenter in the 50s and had it since he was an apprentice. It's an old stone!

The backstory threw me a little when trying to work out what it was after receiving yesterday, as I just assumed that Aussie carpenters back in the day were unlikely to have posh jnats.

Initially I thought it looked like an Idwal, so rather stupidly I lapped the bottom, which was flatter, cos I couldn't be bothered lapping the top. It had a hard, white layer that I got rid of, imagining it was some kind of previous glue. Though the stone didn't lap like novaculite, and cleaned up it clearly didn't look like either of my two small Idwals:






And after using it a bit I became relatively certain it was Japanese; this is pretty hard, but more silky than glassy, and very fine - it's a razor-finisher, mirror-polisher type affair. I think likely a Mizu Asagi of some kind, and by the look and sound of it, possibly Nakayama (or maybe Ozuku).











And that thin layer of 'glue' I got rid of on the bottom, with hindsight seems a lot like something that had been used to seal it. So I guess I'm going to be re-doing that over the next week or so... Duh! Still it's just a lovely stone - 175x60x20mm of goodness .

[NB - I’ve never used, or seen another Mizu Asagi in the flesh. So any experts feel free to chime in.]


----------



## julestools

My first natural and entry to the club! A lovely uchigumori ohira (or so we think) acquired from the god @musicman980 

Now to figure out *** I’m doing on these rocks lol tips appreciated


----------



## tcmx3

julestools said:


> My first natural and entry to the club! A lovely uchigumori ohira (or so we think) acquired from the god @musicman980 ❤‍
> 
> Now to figure out *** I’m doing on these rocks lol tips appreciated



first, congrats and welcome to the sickness.

tips:

leave water on top of a stone like that for a little bit before you start, a spray or dropper bottle is 2-5 dollars but worth their weight in gold
dont overwet your mud, but also dont let it completely dry out. with practice, it's easy to control water on a stone you know well
always flatten (IMO anyway)
bevel the edges (I always finish my bevel with a bit off the top but that's me. I tend to do both AFTER a session so the stone is ready to go for the next time)
make sure you do not press the edge into the stone; this matters a lot more than with synths IME
practice with your stone a lot and learn its foibles before moving on to a new stone; they all require their own touch IMO
pay attention to how it feels to polish on the stone, really try and LISTEN to the feedback
on an uchi I would say dont sharpen the edge but I know some folks do


----------



## julestools

tcmx3 said:


> first, congrats and welcome to the sickness.
> 
> tips:
> 
> leave water on top of a stone like that for a little bit before you start, a spray or dropper bottle is 2-5 dollars but worth their weight in gold
> dont overwet your mud, but also dont let it completely dry out. with practice, it's easy to control water on a stone you know well
> always flatten (IMO anyway)
> bevel the edges (I always finish my bevel with a bit off the top but that's me. I tend to do both AFTER a session so the stone is ready to go for the next time)
> make sure you do not press the edge into the stone; this matters a lot more than with synths IME
> practice with your stone a lot and learn its foibles before moving on to a new stone; they all require their own touch IMO
> pay attention to how it feels to polish on the stone, really try and LISTEN to the feedback
> on an uchi I would say dont sharpen the edge but I know some folks do



Thanks for the warm welcome and the rundown! I look forward to applying these tips to my polishing practice.

And now to find an edge-specific stone I like… Aoto? Aizu?? Natsuya???


----------



## tcmx3

julestools said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome and the rundown! I look forward to applying these tips to my polishing practice.
> 
> And now to find an edge-specific stone I like… Aoto? Aizu?? Natsuya???



of those 3 a nice aizu is an easy rec. I love my natsuya too but way too coarse for my taste. I use it right before my aizu.

I have like 3 tomae stones from Shobudani I think they are all fantastic edge stones and not too pricey to boot. they polish a bit too shiny for my personal taste but seriously the edge on Shiro 1 off them is just nuts. definitely finer than the three you mentioned though, unless you found the finest aizu in existence


----------



## musicman980

julestools said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome and the rundown! I look forward to applying these tips to my polishing practice.
> 
> And now to find an edge-specific stone I like… Aoto? Aizu?? Natsuya???


Yo I got you!


----------



## julestools

tcmx3 said:


> of those 3 a nice aizu is an easy rec. I love my natsuya too but way too coarse for my taste. I use it right before my aizu.
> 
> I have like 3 tomae stones from Shobudani I think they are all fantastic edge stones and not too pricey to boot. they polish a bit too shiny for my personal taste but seriously the edge on Shiro 1 off them is just nuts. definitely finer than the three you mentioned though, unless you found the finest aizu in existence


Based on previous research and discussions I’ve had, my gut says a finer Aizu would be a very approachable starter edge natty, but I’m definitely open to tomae and other stones; my knowledge of what’s out there is just limited. I like a toothiness that’s refined but also scares you a little bit



musicman980 said:


> Yo I got you!



My sweet sweet prince. Texting you shortly to discuss!


----------



## naader

Ao renge from ohira, these stones hold a special place in my heart


----------



## JimMaple98

Maruoyama Tenkasumi Suita, I am still pretty damn new to this with only 6 Jnats but this is probably my prettiest stone.


----------



## PalmRoyale

An amazing Aiiwatani. This is one of the easiest and finest stones I've ever owned. It's too fine for knives but really shines with my Japanese chisels. I hardly needs any pressure to release a slurry.


----------



## Froztitanz

Shoubudani Maruka Asagi. 





The finest stone I have. It's not easy to find a stone this hard that isn't grabby and still works well on knives.


----------



## PalmRoyale

I finally have an Aizu again. I sold one to a forum member a long time ago and I always kind of regretted it. Often thought abut getting another one but for some reason it never happened until recently. I use this one for my tools and with a generous slurry and little pressure I can get a smooth, shaving sharp edge that's perfect for chisels.


----------



## rtt

My new okudo suita that I was really excited about until I started doubting the authenticity of it....

Can anyone familiar with Okudo chime in if that is fake or real or impossible to tell ? There is a serial number on the side if that even means anything. 

Haven't use it much other than a quick test polish and it seems to cut very fast with black inky swarf coming out in less than 10 stroke.


----------



## naader

rtt said:


> My new okudo suita that I was really excited about until I started doubting the authenticity of it....
> 
> Can anyone familiar with Okudo chime in if that is fake or real or impossible to tell ? There is a serial number on the side if that even means anything.
> 
> Haven't use it much other than a quick test polish and it seems to cut very fast with black inky swarf coming out in less than 10 stroke.


I need higher resolution pics particularly of the sides to tell you anything conclusive


----------



## rtt

naader said:


> I need higher resolution pics particularly of the sides to tell you anything conclusive



Sorry I'm bad at uploading, let me retry with better resolution on my phone ! Here is a link to google drive for full resolution. thanks again for your help.


----------



## naader

That looks like some sort of asagi, not suita


----------



## PalmRoyale

Some stores in Japan will let you choose what stamps you want on a stone. They literally have a drawer full of them. Unless you know the personally know the miner there's no way to be sure where any stone came from. And you shouldn't worry about it. Judge a stone on how it performs.


----------



## rtt

PalmRoyale said:


> Some stores in Japan will let you choose what stamps you want on a stone. They literally have a drawer full of them. Unless you know the personally know the miner there's no way to be sure where any stone came from. And you shouldn't worry about it. Judge a stone on how it performs.



That's true I should probably just use it and see how it goes, it does appear pretty fast with 5-10 light stroke and black inky swarf starts forming, definitely faster than my other finisher.


----------



## rtt

naader said:


> That looks like some sort of asagi, not suita



It's pretty white over and vendor said it's habutae type which translate to white robe I believe, but thanks for your input anyway !


----------



## JDC

rtt said:


> It's pretty white over and vendor said it's habutae type which translate to white robe I believe, but thanks for your input anyway !


Is the stone acidic? You can try leaving some slurry (can be generated by diamond stone) on the soft iron and see if there's any mark left by the slurry after a minute or so.


----------



## JDC

One of my Okudo suita has a similar color to yours. This is what its slurry does.


----------



## naader

rtt said:


> It's pretty white over and vendor said it's habutae type which translate to white robe I believe, but thanks for your input anyway !


I mean the patterning of the surface more than the actual colour lol. 

Here's an example of habutae okudo shiro suita. Sides and face look completely different


----------



## naader

Even the lines on the face and on the bottom look like what I'd expact from an asagi.


----------



## JDC

naader said:


> Even the lines on the face and on the bottom look like what I'd expact from an asagi.


Will a sunashi suita look like that? I think maruoyana sunashi suitas look like tomae as well.


----------



## naader

JDC said:


> Will a sunashi suita look like that? I think maruoyana sunashi suitas look like tomae as well.


Sunashi isn't some sort of specific layer, it's just a suita that doesn't have su layers in the entire thickness of the stone. The okudo I posted are between su layers on the surface so the surface lacks su/is sunashi.

The reason I think it is an asagi is because of the texture and patterning on the face more so than the sides.

I've attached a closeup picture for you that's similar to what I see when I look at your stone.


----------



## JDC

naader said:


> Sunashi isn't some sort of specific layer, it's just a suita that doesn't have su layers in the entire thickness of the stone. The okudo I posted are between su layers on the surface so the surface lacks su/is sunashi.
> 
> The reason I think it is an asagi is because of the texture and patterning on the face more so than the sides.
> 
> I've attached a closeup picture for you that's similar to what I see when I look at your stone.


Thanks for the reply, but I'm just a curious bystander, not the OP.

Yeah there can be some little holes even for a sunashi suita. But I do sometimes find Tomae-like sunashi suitas:








Japanese Natural Whetstone Shohonyama Okudo Sunashi Suita '60-Size 1333g *F/S*(IF_985FD991-SPMT)


Japanese Natural Whetstone Shohonyama Okudo Sunashi Suita '60-Size 1333g *F/S* Description “Please check the photos. This is the Shohonyama Okudo Sunashi Suita from Kyoto, For Finishing your knives, carpenter's tools. The holy grail of all sharpening stones. Sunashi means without 'Su', it is...



ikkyu-japanavenue.online





Not saying they are legit though.


----------



## naader

JDC said:


> Thanks for the reply, but I'm just a curious bystander, not the OP.
> 
> Yeah there can be some little holes even for a sunashi suita. But I do sometimes find Tomae-like sunashi suitas:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Japanese Natural Whetstone Shohonyama Okudo Sunashi Suita '60-Size 1333g *F/S*(IF_985FD991-SPMT)
> 
> 
> Japanese Natural Whetstone Shohonyama Okudo Sunashi Suita '60-Size 1333g *F/S* Description “Please check the photos. This is the Shohonyama Okudo Sunashi Suita from Kyoto, For Finishing your knives, carpenter's tools. The holy grail of all sharpening stones. Sunashi means without 'Su', it is...
> 
> 
> 
> ikkyu-japanavenue.online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying they are legit though.


Definitely true, there are some sunashi suita that are tomae like, an entire layer of them from okudo afaik. The kinda cream colored tenjyou suita are almost alway 100% sunashi. They're also some of the damn nicest stones money can buy.
Here's one such example: 

That being said, the stone posted on the ikkyu looks like no suita to me but what do I know lol


----------



## naader

JDC said:


> Thanks for the reply, but I'm just a curious bystander, not the OP.
> 
> Yeah there can be some little holes even for a sunashi suita. But I do sometimes find Tomae-like sunashi suitas:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Japanese Natural Whetstone Shohonyama Okudo Sunashi Suita '60-Size 1333g *F/S*(IF_985FD991-SPMT)
> 
> 
> Japanese Natural Whetstone Shohonyama Okudo Sunashi Suita '60-Size 1333g *F/S* Description “Please check the photos. This is the Shohonyama Okudo Sunashi Suita from Kyoto, For Finishing your knives, carpenter's tools. The holy grail of all sharpening stones. Sunashi means without 'Su', it is...
> 
> 
> 
> ikkyu-japanavenue.online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying they are legit though.



I just looked at the pics on my computer and im 90% sure that "okudo suita" ikkyu posted is a yaginoshima asagi lmfao. Knew from day 1 that site was a scam.


----------



## Lucien

naader said:


> I just looked at the pics on my computer and im 90% sure that "okudo suita" ikkyu posted is a yaginoshima asagi lmfao. Knew from day 1 that site was a scam.


I once noticed a couple of sold stones on Buyee that look exactly the same as ikkyu's inventory. I guess their whole business model is reselling stones from auctions without even trying them first...


----------



## JDC

I tried to buy from them, and they even sent testing pics for me. But the pricing wasn’t sweet enough for the size and quality. Anyone had actually bought from them?


----------



## naader

Lucien said:


> I once noticed a couple of sold stones on Buyee that look exactly the same as ikkyu's inventory. I guess their whole business model is reselling stones from auctions without even trying them first...


I've got no problem with them if they wana flip stuff but this is outright scamming lol. Sometimes you win a killer stone and slap a fat markup, sometimes you get concrete with an okudo stamp and take the loss. These guys don't get that.


----------



## cotedupy

I've bought a stone from Ikkuyu. It was trash, but _very_ cheap so not the end of the world. You live and learn eh!


----------



## JDC

cotedupy said:


> I've bought a stone from Ikkuyu. It was trash, but _very_ cheap so not the end of the world. You live and learn eh!


Guess they didn't mention "trash" in their description!


----------



## cotedupy

JDC said:


> Guess they didn't mention "trash" in their description!



No... They did play pretty fast and loose with the definition of the term of 'non-toxic' though!


----------



## tcmx3

JDC said:


> I tried to buy from them, and they even sent testing pics for me. But the pricing wasn’t sweet enough for the size and quality. Anyone had actually bought from them?



tons of stuff.

it should be obvious that when you buy from them you're rolling the dice. subsequently, I dont buy anything expensive from them. on the other hand, I have an INCREDIBLE ohira shiro suita from them they thought was laden with toxic lines and cost like 250 dollars. and several perfectly fine tomae stones.

I would not spend 500 dollars on a stone from them even, much less the kind of money you'd shell out for a big chunk of uchigumori/nakayama/etc. there are plenty of sources for actual good stones if you have the money, and when I spend up Im going to go to one of those.


----------



## JDC

tcmx3 said:


> tons of stuff.
> 
> it should be obvious that when you buy from them you're rolling the dice. subsequently, I dont buy anything expensive from them. on the other hand, I have an INCREDIBLE ohira shiro suita from them they thought was laden with toxic lines and cost like 250 dollars. and several perfectly fine tomae stones.
> 
> I would not spend 500 dollars on a stone from them even, much less the kind of money you'd shell out for a big chunk of uchigumori/nakayama/etc. there are plenty of sources for actual good stones if you have the money, and when I spend up Im going to go to one of those.


Very useful information, thanks! I'll bet with confidence next time I see something interesting on their website lol.


----------



## tcmx3

honestly one of the big ironies of JNats IMO is that if you want a "safe bet" stone that isnt tiny you need a pretty serious amount of money.

in most hobbies I'd there's a wealth of "basic" stuff that you can get for not very much and it will be fine if uninspiring to the cognoscenti and the big money goes to stuff with character or flaws that if you work around can be amazing. instead, the stone everybody would probably be happiest with is a super clean 2,000 USD Ohira Renge Shiro Suita you dont even have to think about using, you can just throw your knife down on top of it and not worry and it will cut super fast and leave a beautiful finish and amazing edge.

most of the stones you can get for 100-200 dollars, and trust me normal people think that's already a LOT for a stone from my talking to them about naturals, tend to be awful. even for 300 dollars these days you're often looking at relatively small stones under 1kg. there are a couple of good deals out there but the last time I talked to Jon about his Hideriyamas he said they might not come back and that was pretty much the best deal going, even compared to Maruoyama stuff.


----------



## cotedupy

tcmx3 said:


> tons of stuff.
> 
> it should be obvious that when you buy from them you're rolling the dice. subsequently, I dont buy anything expensive from them. on the other hand, I have an INCREDIBLE ohira shiro suita from them they thought was laden with toxic lines and cost like 250 dollars. and several perfectly fine tomae stones.
> 
> I would not spend 500 dollars on a stone from them even, much less the kind of money you'd shell out for a big chunk of uchigumori/nakayama/etc. there are plenty of sources for actual good stones if you have the money, and when I spend up Im going to go to one of those.



^ This ^ btw is exactly what I was doing: rolling dice. My stone was a very cheap tomae koppa, so I'm not going to begrudge it - just how it is!


----------



## Martyn

JDC said:


> I tried to buy from them, and they even sent testing pics for me. But the pricing wasn’t sweet enough for the size and quality. Anyone had actually bought from them?


I did buy a Wakasa suita from them months ago. Judging from the patterns that one particular stone should be genuine. and it works pretty well too. 
on the other hand, once I was interested in a natsuya and asked him to test it for me. he said he normally does not do this but then tested it anyway. the polishing was craaaap.
so yeah, it's like rolling the dice.

_Edit - when I said polishing from that natsuya was crap, I meant it. I mean I could probably pick up a piece of black slate in my garden and achieve a better result. Couple of days later I went back to check their website and it was gone.... pity the buyer..._


----------



## tcmx3

Martyn said:


> I did buy a Wakasa suita from them months ago. Judging from the patterns that one particular stone should be genuine. and it works pretty well too.
> on the other hand, once I was interested in a natsuya and asked him to test it for me. he said he normally does not do this but then tested it anyway. the polishing was craaaap.
> so yeah, it's like rolling the dice.



Natsuya is exactly the sort of stone I would not advise looking for on ikkyu. They are readily available in good quality for about the same price from many dealers who are a lot more involved in the sale of such items. Same would be true with Tsushima, Igarashi, etc. Ikkyu is a good place to buy a dodgy suita for 200 dollars IMO and hope the one you get is pretty good.


----------



## JDC

So far I've only bought from


tcmx3 said:


> honestly one of the big ironies of JNats IMO is that if you want a "safe bet" stone that isnt tiny you need a pretty serious amount of money.
> 
> in most hobbies I'd there's a wealth of "basic" stuff that you can get for not very much and it will be fine if uninspiring to the cognoscenti and the big money goes to stuff with character or flaws that if you work around can be amazing. instead, the stone everybody would probably be happiest with is a super clean 2,000 USD Ohira Renge Shiro Suita you dont even have to think about using, you can just throw your knife down on top of it and not worry and it will cut super fast and leave a beautiful finish and amazing edge.
> 
> most of the stones you can get for 100-200 dollars, and trust me normal people think that's already a LOT for a stone from my talking to them about naturals, tend to be awful. even for 300 dollars these days you're often looking at relatively small stones under 1kg. there are a couple of good deals out there but the last time I talked to Jon about his Hideriyamas he said they might not come back and that was pretty much the best deal going, even compared to Maruoyama stuff.


Yeah Jon had some pretty sweet stones before, for example his shobu suitas. Unfortunately his JNat stock kept dwindling...


----------



## KnightKnightForever

tcmx3 said:


> honestly one of the big ironies of JNats IMO is that if you want a "safe bet" stone that isnt tiny you need a pretty serious amount of money.
> 
> in most hobbies I'd there's a wealth of "basic" stuff that you can get for not very much and it will be fine if uninspiring to the cognoscenti and the big money goes to stuff with character or flaws that if you work around can be amazing. instead, the stone everybody would probably be happiest with is a super clean 2,000 USD Ohira Renge Shiro Suita you dont even have to think about using, you can just throw your knife down on top of it and not worry and it will cut super fast and leave a beautiful finish and amazing edge.
> 
> most of the stones you can get for 100-200 dollars, and trust me normal people think that's already a LOT for a stone from my talking to them about naturals, tend to be awful. even for 300 dollars these days you're often looking at relatively small stones under 1kg. there are a couple of good deals out there but the last time I talked to Jon about his Hideriyamas he said they might not come back and that was pretty much the best deal going, even compared to Maruoyama stuff.








Natural water stones from Kyoto | The best quality wet stones 2


small sizes Koppa natural sharpening water stones from Kyoto




www.kitchen-knife.jp





What do you think of #11?


----------



## EricEricEric

If you’re going to spend a lot of money on any stone you need to #1 see the proof of the stone and #2 see the proof of the knife that was used on the stone

Otherwise you are gambling



KnightKnightForever said:


> Natural water stones from Kyoto | The best quality wet stones 2
> 
> 
> small sizes Koppa natural sharpening water stones from Kyoto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchen-knife.jp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think of #11?


----------



## KnightKnightForever

EricEricEric said:


> If you’re going to spend a lot of money on any stone you need to #1 see the proof of the stone and #2 see the proof of the knife that was used on the stone
> 
> Otherwise you are gambling


Thanks


----------



## tcmx3

KnightKnightForever said:


> Natural water stones from Kyoto | The best quality wet stones 2
> 
> 
> small sizes Koppa natural sharpening water stones from Kyoto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchen-knife.jp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think of #11?



Watanabe is a well known stone dealer, and I have one of his stones that I got second hand and it's nice. But he doesnt provide a whole lot of details.

If you want to spend 4 figures on an ohira suita, it might be worth shooting Maxim at JNS an email, he has nice ones and he tends to show pictures of resulting finish. In the past, he even used to do videos, he might be able to do that for you or give you specific notes.


----------



## JDC

tcmx3 said:


> Watanabe is a well known stone dealer, and I have one of his stones that I got second hand and it's nice. But he doesnt provide a whole lot of details.
> 
> If you want to spend 4 figures on an ohira suita, it might be worth shooting Maxim at JNS an email, he has nice ones and he tends to show pictures of resulting finish. In the past, he even used to do videos, he might be able to do that for you or give you specific notes.


I’m afraid that Maxim’s renge suitas are no longer in vicinity of $1k…


----------



## KnightKnightForever

JDC said:


> I’m afraid that Maxim’s renge suitas are no longer in vicinity of $1k…



Yeah they’re anywhere from 2,500 to 4,000, which I just can’t justify for a rock. $1,000 is the highest i can go


----------



## tcmx3

KnightKnightForever said:


> Yeah they’re anywhere from 2,500 to 4,000, which I just can’t justify for a rock. $1,000 is the highest i can go



then get a Maruoyama/Shobudani Shiro Suita instead. lower price, similar quality, slightly different characteristics _on average_ but every stone is unique.


----------



## JDC

tcmx3 said:


> then get a Maruoyama/Shobudani Shiro Suita instead. lower price, similar quality, slightly different characteristics _on average_ but every stone is unique.


Marouyama is usually softer, but shoubudani is a good suggestion, still muddier but nice feedback.


----------



## tcmx3

JDC said:


> Marouyama is usually softer, but shoubudani is a good suggestion, still muddier but nice feedback.



if you want an ohira suita these days, just pony up.

if you just want a great stone then Maruoyama is the best deal going, but even they are getting more expensive. I prefer Maru to Shobu, but I prefer Ohira to both, but a nice example of any of them is infinitely better than a bad example of any of them.


----------



## JDC

tcmx3 said:


> if you want an ohira suita these days, just pony up.
> 
> if you just want a great stone then Maruoyama is the best deal going, but even they are getting more expensive. I prefer Maru to Shobu, but I prefer Ohira to both, but a nice example of any of them is infinitely better than a bad example of any of them.


Sure, I’ve tried a white shoubu that is better than my full renge ohira. The price for any good suita is just sky rocketing recently (through visible channels).


----------



## maxim

JDC said:


> I’m afraid that Maxim’s renge suitas are no longer in vicinity of $1k…


Believe me I am not happy about it too but last time I got some cheaper ones I had to trow out 7 out of 10 cheap ones ;(


----------



## DHunter86

naader said:


> I just looked at the pics on my computer and im 90% sure that "okudo suita" ikkyu posted is a yaginoshima asagi lmfao. Knew from day 1 that site was a scam.


I wouldn't go so far as calling them a scam. Granted, they're not personally too knowledgeable about JNats, and rely on their supplier instead.

@rtt I'd reach out to them about your concerns, from experience, they'll try and make it right.


----------



## rtt

JDC said:


> Is the stone acidic? You can try leaving some slurry (can be generated by diamond stone) on the soft iron and see if there's any mark left by the slurry after a minute or so.



I have never thought of trying that, let me try it out the next time I use it.


----------



## rtt

naader said:


> I mean the patterning of the surface more than the actual colour lol.
> 
> Here's an example of habutae okudo shiro suita. Sides and face look completely different



It does look completely different especially the side, and I guess your white are very pure white where as mine as greyish tone to it


----------



## rtt

DHunter86 said:


> I wouldn't go so far as calling them a scam. Granted, they're not personally too knowledgeable about JNats, and rely on their supplier instead.
> 
> @rtt I'd reach out to them about your concerns, from experience, they'll try and make it right.


I didn't get mine through Ikkyu, got mine through lida tools.


----------



## PalmRoyale

I've never paid any attention to all the talk about jnats on various sites and forums. I've always gone with my gut and so far I've never had a bad stone. It can be anything from an Amakusa to a fine finisher. The last time my gut told me to get it was with an Aizu and before that there was a very long gap when I didn't see anything that me made me think, that's the one. Eventually something always comes along that I instinctively know is going to be really good and when it does I'm going all in.


----------



## Lucien

deleted


----------



## DHunter86

rtt said:


> I didn't get mine through Ikkyu, got mine through lida tools.



My bad, there you just need to pay a little attention. His stones aren't bad per se, just not the top-grade stuff. I've got a couple from him that are great performers (just not looks). Again, I'd reach out to him if you're unhappy. He's very knowledgeable about carpentry tools, but again relies a lot on his supplier for JNats.

PM me if you'd like to discuss further.


----------



## DHunter86

Lucien said:


> View attachment 145891



Hey man, I don't think it's nice to post private comms on a public forum, particularly if it's about a business' suppliers. If you ran a business or sold anything, you wouldn't want anyone revealing your suppliers and contacts without your consent either, right?

Also, I find your accusations that they're Buyee resellers a bit misleading and unfair. Sure, Buyee is flooded with stones, from trash to great pieces. But that's just not sustainable for any full-time stone seller - supplies are unpredictable and costs are highly variable too. I actually know for a fact that their stones aren't from Buyee, as I've had them try to source specific stones for me from their suppliers before. 

As buyers, of course, we would like our sellers to have tested and documented all their stones well, and those sellers definitely do exist. But for that, one shouldn't expect the service for free - reasonable mark-ups are inevitable. For every good stone sold, a seller might have had a few that don't make the cut - that factors into mark-ups, in addition to their time. If you want cheap stones, take the risk: Buyee - no recourse, at least Ikkyu backs their stones, and there's a discussion to be had if a stone isn't up to expectations.


----------



## Lucien

DHunter86 said:


> Hey man, I don't think it's nice to post private comms on a public forum, particularly if it's about a business' suppliers. If you ran a business or sold anything, you wouldn't want anyone revealing your suppliers and contacts without your consent either, right?
> 
> Also, I find your accusations that they're Buyee resellers a bit misleading and unfair. Sure, Buyee is flooded with stones, from trash to great pieces. But that's just not sustainable for any full-time stone seller - supplies are unpredictable and costs are highly variable too. I actually know for a fact that their stones aren't from Buyee, as I've had them try to source specific stones for me from their suppliers before.
> 
> As buyers, of course, we would like our sellers to have tested and documented all their stones well, and those sellers definitely do exist. But for that, one shouldn't expect the service for free - reasonable mark-ups are inevitable. For every good stone sold, a seller might have had a few that don't make the cut - that factors into mark-ups, in addition to their time. If you want cheap stones, take the risk: Buyee - no recourse, at least Ikkyu backs their stones, and there's a discussion to be had if a stone isn't up to expectations.


Hi. Thank you for the comment. I think you are right. But the reason I posted this is actually to make right my previous seemingly unfair accusation. Besides, there was actually not any confidential info regarding his suppliers in the message. That was why I wanted to share it with this community, from which I have learned a lot. 
Anyway, I have deleted my post. Let's just say that while some of his stones do come from auctions, most of the stones are not. And it is not uncommon for sellers to source stones from auctions.


----------



## JDC

Lucien said:


> Hi. Thank you for the comment. I think you are right. But the reason I posted this is actually to make right my previous seemingly unfair accusation. Besides, there was actually not any confidential info regarding his suppliers in the message. That was why I wanted to share it with this community, from which I have learned a lot.
> Anyway, I have deleted my post. Let's just say that while some of his stones do come from auctions, most of the stones are not. And it is not uncommon for sellers to source stones from auctions.


IMHO that message makes them look more legit, not less. In fact, the way JNats were marketed in the western world lacks transparency.


----------



## Lucien

JDC said:


> IMHO that message makes them look more legit, not less. In fact, the way JNats were marketed in the western world lacks transparency.


That's what I thought too when I posted it..... I actually thought they would have wanted me to post it, given how they found my previous comment and knew I was a member here....


----------



## JDC

Lucien said:


> That's what I thought too when I posted it.....


Yes I get it, and thanks. There are many whole sellers in Japan doing tricky thing like what ikkyujapanese mentioned. We don't have to be naïve from their perspective by respecting these kind of "secrets."


----------



## DHunter86

@Lucien Sorry to have misunderstood you. My bad there, I've only had good dealings with them, hence, the post. Yeah, I do think they'd like you to correct your statement, but probably not by posting your comms. A quick statement would have done the job I think. 

@JDC I agree 100% that there are some practices there that I'm absolutely not happy with. The number of layers some of those stones go through (each with their cut) is definitely no joke. Most sellers in Japan will not test the stones for you either; if it weren't for covid, the correct way to buy is definitely to make a trip to Japan in person.


----------



## PalmRoyale

Bought it back from GorillaGrunt  Forgot how nice this suita is, even more so now that I have loads of experience with suitas.


----------



## PalmRoyale

Put 4 non-slip rubber feet in the aluminium base of the shiro suita. 

The first pic of very out of focus. My old phone only has a 2MP camera


----------



## JDC

Very hard, but technique rules.


----------



## refcast

One of the most uniform surface I've seen in a jnat personally. A really fast stone, even in honyaki. Not mine anymore. This is after flattening, before reconditioning the surface


----------



## Froztitanz

Tajima:




Aizu:


----------



## JDC

Nakayama Tomae Maruka

The speed can really give my Okudo suitas a run.

Two sided. One side is hard and the other side is borderline self-slurrying. Both are very fine.




It can cover up 1k scratches and provide a bright kasumi. 




Or a mirror finish after a full progression (not as mirror as the mizuasagi, but close).



Are these the king of JNats? I feel mine is a refined version of Okudo suita. It has the speed while provides a buttery smooth sharpening feeling.


----------



## EricEricEric

Absolutely the king of natural stones, lightning fast, easy to use, mirror finish, ultra consistent


----------



## naader

KnightKnightForever said:


> Natural water stones from Kyoto | The best quality wet stones 2
> 
> 
> small sizes Koppa natural sharpening water stones from Kyoto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchen-knife.jp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think of #11?


Overpriced, no question


----------



## Pie

Child’s play in the scope of this thread, but a fun one - finer, will slurry with some effort, but once you get a proper mud going by far the smoothest, easiest going finisher I have. Comparable in fineness to some hard ozuku asagi, but couldn’t be more different in use. Looks kinda cool with red, green, some faint blue and pink blushes across the stone. There’s a huge pink streak in it about halfway down I’m hoping to get to in this lifetime. An old barber stone, so quite narrow, but I really don’t mind the size - makes it easier to use the whole stone. Unknown pedigree, but plenty interesting. +1 to @refcast and his mystery stones.


----------



## refcast

@Pie 

kinda miss that one. . . note the chalky look when dry -- those are speedy stones. The very vivid, saturated colors when wet are usually stones that slurry quick. Pink and green stones are usually muddier stones, too, or at least ones with a smooth clay feel, which helps a lot with finer polishes. Lastly, the fineness of the stone can kinda be told by the surface roughness . . .barely I guess. Kinda hard by pictures to explain. Kinda like looking at an image of sandstone vs a finishing stone -- the porosity and grain size.


----------



## tcmx3

I keep saying Ill take a picture of the new stuff when all the ones in the mail arrive and uh, yeah folks I may need an intervention basically


----------



## tcmx3

since last we spoke...

left column:
Nakayama Suita - just got this one, a quick test and it does what it's supposed to. hard but doesnt feel it, black swarf that accrues a lot faster than you'd expect, fine edges. 
Nakayama Maruka Tomae - after @JDC showed off one of these, I uh... had to have one from the same batch. In all honesty, haven't even tested this one yet. Stunner in person though. This came from Carbon if you're looking...
Shoubudani Tomae - nice slightly harder example and this is why I love these stones. they are not my absolute favorite stones BUT you get a lot for your money. great edges, nice contrast, this one being a bit harder doesnt make as much mud as some other ones Ive had but still very easy to sharpen on. all for barely more money than some synthetics.

right:
Ohira Shiro Suita - got this one off BST & originally from Watanabe. love this stone. brutal, brutal edges, and a good polisher to boot. this is what I think of being a 'typical' great JNAT. it just does everything and of all of my suitas this one is my favorite edge stone. I like it as a polisher, but it's not as easy as some other suitas I own
Maruoyama Tamagoiro Sunashi Suita - Cool little stone; kind of a Maruo version of a fine finisher I guess. Which means it's still muddy af compared to the Aiiwa/Atago/Naka stuff for its fineness, which makes it super easy to use. 
Maruoyama Shiro Suita - this stone is just the best. super easy to polish, amazing edge, the prices are still reasonable for what you get. this one is over a kilo and the only stone I like better is an Ohira Renge Suita that is just a bit faster and a bit of a more convenient shape (wider, longer but sadly shorter) 
Maruoyama Shiki Uchigumori - Nice stone, but I don't use it much tbh. Kind of overlaps with my Maruo ao suita I guess? I should use it more, it was a lot of stone for the money. Muddy but not quite like the shiro suita. Leaves a great finish too.
Aiiwatani Asagi - got this from Bernal, listed as a level 4 hardness and 4-4.5 fineness which I think is fair. polishing on this stone is doable, just takes some patience/skill. I dont usually polish on this stone just because I tend to like a bit hazier finish than mirrored, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE this stone for edges. Probably finer than a lot of folks around here would like, but it works great for me
Atagoyama - This was called "HUGE" by Maksim, and he rated it 3.5 hardness. I have limited time on this stone, but so far I like it a lot. Finish is contrasty and the edge is amazing. Also I cannot imagine that I could ever use up this stone in my lifetime, and the surface is so big that it makes polishing a breeze


and actually I forgot to add a little 600g Shoubudani I got from Bernal but in all honesty I dont have many miles on it even though it's a nice softer/very muddy stone.


----------



## JDC

tcmx3 said:


> View attachment 148898
> 
> 
> since last we spoke...
> 
> left column:
> Nakayama Suita - just got this one, a quick test and it does what it's supposed to. hard but doesnt feel it, black swarf that accrues a lot faster than you'd expect, fine edges.
> Nakayama Maruka Tomae - after @JDC showed off one of these, I uh... had to have one from the same batch. In all honesty, haven't even tested this one yet. Stunner in person though. This came from Carbon if you're looking...
> Shoubudani Tomae - nice slightly harder example and this is why I love these stones. they are not my absolute favorite stones BUT you get a lot for your money. great edges, nice contrast, this one being a bit harder doesnt make as much mud as some other ones Ive had but still very easy to sharpen on. all for barely more money than some synthetics.
> 
> right:
> Ohira Shiro Suita - got this one off BST & originally from Watanabe. love this stone. brutal, brutal edges, and a good polisher to boot. this is what I think of being a 'typical' great JNAT. it just does everything and of all of my suitas this one is my favorite edge stone. I like it as a polisher, but it's not as easy as some other suitas I own
> Maruoyama Tamagoiro Sunashi Suita - Cool little stone; kind of a Maruo version of a fine finisher I guess. Which means it's still muddy af compared to the Aiiwa/Atago/Naka stuff for its fineness, which makes it super easy to use.
> Maruoyama Shiro Suita - this stone is just the best. super easy to polish, amazing edge, the prices are still reasonable for what you get. this one is over a kilo and the only stone I like better is an Ohira Renge Suita that is just a bit faster and a bit of a more convenient shape (wider, longer but sadly shorter)
> Maruoyama Shiki Uchigumori - Nice stone, but I don't use it much tbh. Kind of overlaps with my Maruo ao suita I guess? I should use it more, it was a lot of stone for the money. Muddy but not quite like the shiro suita. Leaves a great finish too.
> Aiiwatani Asagi - got this from Bernal, listed as a level 4 hardness and 4-4.5 fineness which I think is fair. polishing on this stone is doable, just takes some patience/skill. I dont usually polish on this stone just because I tend to like a bit hazier finish than mirrored, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE this stone for edges. Probably finer than a lot of folks around here would like, but it works great for me
> Atagoyama - This was called "HUGE" by Maksim, and he rated it 3.5 hardness. I have limited time on this stone, but so far I like it a lot. Finish is contrasty and the edge is amazing. Also I cannot imagine that I could ever use up this stone in my lifetime, and the surface is so big that it makes polishing a breeze
> 
> 
> and actually I forgot to add a little 600g Shoubudani I got from Bernal but in all honesty I dont have many miles on it even though it's a nice softer/very muddy stone.


Very cool collection! I bet you have more JNats in the closet, lol. IMO your Nakayama tomae is the most beautiful one from the batch.


----------



## tcmx3

JDC said:


> Very cool collection! I bet you have more JNats in the closet, lol. IMO your Nakayama tomae is the most beautiful one from the batch.



yeah... I have too many lmao. this is only about 1/3rd of what I currently own


----------



## JDC

tcmx3 said:


> yeah... I have too many lmao. this is only about 1/3rd of what I currently own


You need to try some kanayama strops now...


----------



## Rangen

I fear that I have become excessively fond of the Ohira Renge Suita. I just love everything about them. The feel when sharpening on them. The smell. The sharpening results. The look. So, somehow, I wound up with 3 of them.





The middle is the newest member of the family. 

This excessive group did not come about because of a collector mentality. The first was the one on the right. I loved everything about it except the shape and the wobbliness. The wobbliness I cured by pouring epoxy, but the shape...I like to sharpen, and especially hone razors, in-hand, and my hands, while large, are not large enough to do it with that stone.

So I got the stone on the left. Paid a pretty penny for it, too. At last, I would have my perfect Ohira suita. Except it's so perfect that it's incredibly fine. Great pre-finisher for razors, and I love it, but you're not going to get a perfect toothy knife edge on it.

So, the new one is Take 3. Haven't tried it out yet, but I have high hopes for it, as both a perfect shape for honing in hand, and a creator of toothy kitchen knife edges. We'll see. Even if it's not that, I'm sure I'll find things to love about it, because these stones seem to do that for me.


----------



## tcmx3

Rangen said:


> I fear that I have become excessively fond of the Ohira Renge Suita. I just love everything about them. The feel when sharpening on them. The smell. The sharpening results. The look. So, somehow, I wound up with 3 of them.
> View attachment 149331
> 
> 
> The middle is the newest member of the family.
> 
> This excessive group did not come about because of a collector mentality. The first was the one on the right. I loved everything about it except the shape and the wobbliness. The wobbliness I cured by pouring epoxy, but the shape...I like to sharpen, and especially hone razors, in-hand, and my hands, while large, are not large enough to do it with that stone.
> 
> So I got the stone on the left. Paid a pretty penny for it, too. At last, I would have my perfect Ohira suita. Except it's so perfect that it's incredibly fine. Great pre-finisher for razors, and I love it, but you're not going to get a perfect toothy knife edge on it.
> 
> So, the new one is Take 3. Haven't tried it out yet, but I have high hopes for it, as both a perfect shape for honing in hand, and a creator of toothy kitchen knife edges. We'll see. Even if it's not that, I'm sure I'll find things to love about it, because these stones seem to do that for me.



my favorite stones as well. I own 3 Ohira Shiro Suitas, though 1 of mine is sumi not renge. 

if you are finding them too fine, my suggestion is to make a bigger jump from your last stone. if I want an angry, angry edge, sometimes I will use a 1k stone and then go to a finisher directly, but I will admit even the finest of my stones are not too fine for my taste, including my hard Aiiwatani asagi or the new Nakayama kiita I picked up


----------



## Rangen

tcmx3 said:


> if you are finding them too fine, my suggestion is to make a bigger jump from your last stone. if I want an angry, angry edge, sometimes I will use a 1k stone and then go to a finisher directly, but I will admit even the finest of my stones are not too fine for my taste, including my hard Aiiwatani asagi or the new Nakayama kiita I picked up



That's a really good idea, and I will try it out.


----------



## Rangen

tcmx3 said:


> f you are finding them too fine, my suggestion is to make a bigger jump from your last stone. if I want an angry, angry edge, sometimes I will use a 1k stone and then go to a finisher directly, but I will admit even the finest of my stones are not too fine for my taste, including my hard Aiiwatani asagi or the new Nakayama kiita I picked up



OK, that worked really well, starting with a Naniwa 800 on a TF Nashiji petty, and jumping straight to the finest of those Ohira Suitas. Great edge, super-keen with just enough rasp. I'm on board. Now to try the most extreme version, almost, starting with a Sigma 1000 (a nasty stone if ever there was one), and jumping straight to a Nakayama Tomae razor pre-finisher. If I don't survive it, remember me.


----------



## JDC

Rangen said:


> OK, that worked really well, starting with a Naniwa 800 on a TF Nashiji petty, and jumping straight to the finest of those Ohira Suitas. Great edge, super-keen with just enough rasp. I'm on board. Now to try the most extreme version, almost, starting with a Sigma 1000 (a nasty stone if ever there was one), and jumping straight to a Nakayama Tomae razor pre-finisher. If I don't survive it, remember me.


I jumped from sp1k to an ultra final finisher, and the edges were beyond comprehension. Two very light sweeps at ~30-40 degrees per side, anything more than that the magic is gone.


----------



## Froztitanz

With the love for the Renge Suitas, here's my latest contributions to this thread.


----------



## tcmx3

Froztitanz said:


> With the love for the Renge Suitas, here's my latest contributions to this thread.
> View attachment 150571
> View attachment 150572
> View attachment 150573



pretty much the platonic ideal of what a renge suita should look like IMO


----------



## musicman980

Very old suita with hand sawn sides.
220x78x39


----------



## cawilson6072

Might have gone a bit overboard for the stone, but it was a fun project and definitely increases usability. Mizukihara Namazu koppa leveled with (red) resin and mounted to a piece of katalox (bowl blank that I’ll pretty surely never turn) with a rubber base. The wood is unfinished, but got a coat of George’s Club House wax. The whole thing sits about 3.5” off the counter and sticks to the solid surface countertop like glue!


----------



## Martyn

A nice piece of Belgian Blue after reading @cotedupy 's nice words about them -


----------



## tcmx3

two absolute monsters showed up today:

Ohira ao renge suita & Okudo suita. I havent gotten a chance to test the Ohira but this Okudo may be the best stone Ive ever used.

by the way it's hard to find info on ao renge stones and I had heard that maybe the renge wasnt really blue but on this stone it's really, genuinely blue. there are two little patches of actual black renge on the stone and it makes it even more apparent that the other renge are just straight up blue. who knew.


----------



## dAtron

EricEricEric said:


> Absolutely the king of natural stones, lightning fast, easy to use, mirror finish, ultra consistent
> 
> View attachment 148218
> View attachment 148219
> View attachment 148223


Nice which one is it?


----------



## tcmx3

dAtron said:


> Nice which one is it?



Nakayama Maruka stamped Tomae. 

not sure if Eric got his out of the same batch as me and JDC but it looks like it could have.


----------



## JDC

tcmx3 said:


> Nakayama Maruka stamped Tomae.
> 
> not sure if Eric got his out of the same batch as me and JDC but it looks like it could have.


It is probably Tsuchihashi San who refinished and stamped these stones, but I don't know their older stories.


----------



## BeinM

Natsuya are just too photogenic


----------



## adrianopedro

New stones arrival 

Tomae, Ohira Suita
Natsuya, Aizu


----------



## PalmRoyale

New aizu loaded with black renge. The performance and finish is pretty much identical to my other aizu but this one feels nicer on my chisels. This one is going with me to work (for my chisels) and the other stays at home for my knives.


----------



## Pie

Had a go with this one today. Imanishi amakusa white, a budget, readily available stone. First jnat I ever tried. Somewhere in the 1k-2k, it leaves a mild scratchy finish with some contrast, with manageable scratch depths, making it prefinisher appropriate. A harder, stingy stone, needing diamond plate slurry to really get rolling, but when fresh it’s fast and coarse. Grey mud starts in 2 strokes, breaks down quite fast, but not consistently so, resulting in some crunchiness. Needs to be refreshed fairly often which is ok because it’s a brick and it forces me to stop and look at what I’m doing. It’s miles better than I had previously thought. 






Pardon the random scratch pattern, consistency is not my strong point. I don’t mind the results either, although it isn’t anything special. Stoked I could learn something and actually get a result out of it.


----------



## tcmx3

any of you ever just buy stones with descriptions that start and end with "suita"?

I have. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?


----------



## JDC

tcmx3 said:


> any of you ever just buy stones with descriptions that start and end with "suita"?
> 
> I have. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?


Sleeping on a stone-cold bed made of suita?


----------



## tcmx3

JDC said:


> Sleeping on a stone-cold bed made of suita?



cant be made to sleep on the couch if the couch is covered with stones


----------



## Pie

tcmx3 said:


> any of you ever just buy stones with descriptions that start and end with "suita"?
> 
> I have. I mean, what's the worst that could happen?


I’m pretty sure @refcast has bought all sorts of things that just said suita. That weird giant su doorstop stone comes to mind.


----------



## tcmx3

some recent acquisitions:

Maruoyama Ao Suita - this one is darker in color than my other one and noticeably harder. My understanding is this is a more typical example. With namazu and a little bit of red renge. Cool stone, but I seem to like anything Maruoyama 

Okudo Kuro Renge - I wanted this to compare to my Ohira Ao Renge because I saw one of our post on IG about them and how they compared to those. Just a super quick test on this one so far confirmed it is pretty fast and pretty hard. Ive been enjoying stones like this more recently but they are certainly not as easy to use as some softer stones

"Suita" - this is the mystery stone. This is a dead ringer for a Nakayama suita I have from color, hardness and even the skin. That's obviously not enough to say. This one isnt quite as fast and the renge, though kind of hard to see here, is more plentiful. The only descriptions I had for this one were the size/weight, a few bad pictures, a claim it was a suita (which does check out) and the comment that the color was "beige, like cardboard", which is pretty lol. anyway this stone was so cheap it was basically free so Im not gonna complain. this is just hard enough to be a razer stone, but just soft enough to polish knives.


----------



## Pie

tcmx3 said:


> some recent acquisitions:
> 
> Maruoyama Ao Suita - this one is darker in color than my other one and noticeably harder. My understanding is this is a more typical example. With namazu and a little bit of red renge. Cool stone, but I seem to like anything Maruoyama
> 
> Okudo Kuro Renge - I wanted this to compare to my Ohira Ao Renge because I saw one of our post on IG about them and how they compared to those. Just a super quick test on this one so far confirmed it is pretty fast and pretty hard. Ive been enjoying stones like this more recently but they are certainly not as easy to use as some softer stones
> 
> "Suita" - this is the mystery stone. This is a dead ringer for a Nakayama suita I have from color, hardness and even the skin. That's obviously not enough to say. This one isnt quite as fast and the renge, though kind of hard to see here, is more plentiful. The only descriptions I had for this one were the size/weight, a few bad pictures, a claim it was a suita (which does check out) and the comment that the color was "beige, like cardboard", which is pretty lol. anyway this stone was so cheap it was basically free so Im not gonna complain. this is just hard enough to be a razer stone, but just soft enough to polish knives.
> 
> View attachment 153517


You really don’t mess around when buying stones . The whole batch sounds on the hard side, are you primarily interested with edges these days? Or you can magic these onto polishing?


----------



## tcmx3

Pie said:


> You really don’t mess around when buying stones . The whole batch sounds on the hard side, are you primarily interested with edges these days? Or you can magic these onto polishing?



hmm, I dont think the Maruo is hard, it's just that normally stones from that mine tend to be quite muddy/soft, and this one is more in line with my Ohira stones I'd say.

you can polish with any of these and tbh I only spend this kind of money on stones I intend to polish with. as Ive improved my technique I have begun to like harder stones more than softer ones if I'm honest. soft stones are easy to use but you know they often just make a similar finish; lots of contrast but not much detail. with harder stones it feels like the stones have a bit more individual character. and in the end, it's not that hard to use a lvl 4 stone, if the level 4 stone isnt grabby and you put in the time to learn how to deal with harder stones. some combination of watching Milan Gravier (I actually bought the okduo above from him) & Badgertooth's videos and just practicing has gotten me to a point where I feel ok polishing on pretty much any stone I own, though I will admit I find my perfect spot has been about the middle of the pack suita hardness. it's part of why I continue to acquire a lot of Ohira stones as Ive had good luck with them.

with respect to edges I have always preferred harder JNats for edges. probably my favorite edge stone is still the Aiiwatani Asagai I got a while back and I think that stone was only like, 250 dollars? the Okudo ochre suita is quickly taking over that spot though.


----------



## tcmx3

new acquisitions:

Okudo suita: smaller than my other one, and more eggshell. Also about a quarter or half a point softer; I love this stone already.

Some older renge suita: will probably need to plane the top to properly test this one. I dont know what mine, but it's hard-ish. also, I suspect the sticker/stamps are legit, just given the age. I need to remove the sticker to properly test but it seems like it will destroy the sticker, which seems a shame. Im torn about this stone, almost feels like sacrilege to remove the sticker/stamps =/

Narutaki (probably area not mine tho) renge suita: >2kg of the greatest stone I have ever used. this thing is UNREAL. it has a slightly chalky, pillowy feel almost like a good synthetic, and it absolutely SHREDS metal. Ive never seen a stone cut so fast, I mean legitimately this is the fastest finishing stone I have ever used by a considerable margin. is this habutae color btw? it's definitely reminiscent of rice in person. dark, maybe even black renge pops out when you wet it down. I paid a pretty big chunk of cash for this stone but let me tell you it wasnt even close to enough. Im absolutely in love with this stone. box has the old kanji and the sticker is also quite old.


----------



## naader

I generally have a negative bias for ohira suita, generally I think they're overrated but there are exceptions. Here's a pretty one lol


----------



## JDC

naader said:


> I generally have a negative bias for ohira suita, generally I think they're overrated but there are exceptions. Here's a pretty one lol


How does this one perform?


----------



## tcmx3

naader said:


> I generally have a negative bias for ohira suita, generally I think they're overrated but there are exceptions. Here's a pretty one lol



that's a good looking example.

also I agree when I look at the recent prices, I dont 100% get it. though I am guilty of paying those prices sometimes myself


----------



## naader

JDC said:


> How does this one perform?


fast, on the finer side respective to the ~lvl3.5 hardness and it really darkens the sht out of iron, really contrasty finish and it doesn't glaze over so no worries about burnishing. Frustratingly good. I'm probably still not keeping though, I have a brown ugly tomae that does the same thing for like 25% the price lmfao


----------



## tcmx3

frankly though right now I dont understand what is happening with stones.

seen some stones hit ridiculous prices with like, zero details, and then in our own BST seen some killers languish...


----------



## naader

tcmx3 said:


> frankly though right now I dont understand what is happening with stones.
> 
> seen some stones hit ridiculous prices with like, zero details, and then in our own BST seen some killers languish...


i know what you mean. theres no rhyme or reason for some of this ****.


----------



## JDC

tcmx3 said:


> frankly though right now I dont understand what is happening with stones.
> 
> seen some stones hit ridiculous prices with like, zero details, and then in our own BST seen some killers languish...


I visited Bernal the other day and viewed the JNat collection from their sharpening expert. He kept saying he has nothing crazy expensive, but the fact is many of his stones will cost well over $1k nowadays, for example full-sized narutaki suita and nakayama tomae.


----------



## tcmx3

naader said:


> i know what you mean. theres no rhyme or reason for some of this ****.



frankly Im just feeling a little bit bitter because there was a stone I wanted to pick up and the auction had the words "looks like ohira" in it. the stone was listed as unknown it just "looks like ohira" and the thing went for twice what I thought it ought to have, and I saw a numbered Natsuya sit in BST at an insane price for like a month?

and I was the person who bought Eric's Ohira and yeah it was pricey but that stone was worth it and barely more than this thing on yahoo went for. with no details, no slurry pictures, nothing.

I hate it here.

actually Im curious though if not Ohira, what do you personally like? Im frustrated by Ohira suita prices but I like the stones. I've not felt like my Shoubu examples have been quite as much to my taste, Okudo is great for edges but mine are too hard for anything but final polish. Dunno the right Ohira checks all the boxes just costs more than I think it ought to. It's getting close to drug prices.


----------



## naader

tcmx3 said:


> actually Im curious though if not Ohira, what do you personally like? Im frustrated by Ohira suita prices but I like the stones. I've not felt like my Shoubu examples have been quite as much to my taste, Okudo is great for edges but mine are too hard for anything but final polish. Dunno the right Ohira checks all the boxes just costs more than I think it ought to. It's getting close to drug prices.



Yeah it's crazy frustrating. Honestly if you're looking for early polishers for use right after nakato, shobu have consistently been my favorites because they still cut fast despite being kinda hard and coarse but the best stuff is usually some sort of tomae. 

Everyone wants some glamorous suita with vivid colours and pretty layers but tomae stones generally offer a level of quality impossible to find with suita on account of their homogeneity and consistency. While i do have absolutely killer suita, peak performance stones relative to their hardness and grit, I also have a bunch of tomae in the same category that cost half to a quarter as much.


----------



## tcmx3

naader said:


> Yeah it's crazy frustrating. Honestly if you're looking for early polishers for use right after nakato, shobu have consistently been my favorites because they still cut fast despite being kinda hard and coarse but the best stuff is usually some sort of tomae.
> 
> Everyone wants some glamorous suita with vivid colours and pretty layers but tomae stones generally offer a level of quality impossible to find with suita on account of their homogeneity and consistency. While i do have absolutely killer suita, peak performance stones relative to their hardness and grit, I also have a bunch of tomae in the same category that cost half to a quarter as much.




well, I understand.

for the most part, we are buying stones based at least partly on the look, unless we either get hands on time with them or we really know the person we're buying from. 

especially online, Im often just looking at the stone and hoping it does ok. suitas really can be beautiful stones, especially the ochre and tamago ones, and many tomaes are kind of... ugly frankly.

I might need to acquire some more tomae stones. so far Ive had a few Shobus, which I liked well enough but never really loved the finished, and I have one really pricey Nakayama one.


----------



## naader

tcmx3 said:


> and many tomaes are kind of... ugly frankly.



Yeah I'd say most of them look crap. The characteristics to look for with them are, as a consequence of their muted details, difficult to identify. Can't go wrong with Nakayama though, i've had less duds from that mine than any other by a longshot


----------



## Pie

I really don’t know how people can buy just from the look, no description no nothing. Maybe it’s because I won’t sell anything that I buy, but I probably annoy sellers with too many questions and trying to dig up all the subjective details.

I’ve been lucky so far, the one stone I bought with zero info other than “soft” and “came from a blacksmith’s collection” turned out to be a beast. It’s also visually very boring, maybe not ugly but sure wouldn’t attract anyone with its looks.


----------



## PineWood

Two stones I picked up recently





The top one is a full-size Takashima stone. It is soft, but not too muddy, relatively fast en still fine enough to finish. It is a useful stone and very, very enjoyable to sharpen on. The kind of stone I was hoping to find.
The bottom one is obviously a shiro suita. It looks like an Ohira stone... Just kidding guys! The mine is unknown but I have seen Okudo stones that look very similar. I admit I bought it for the looks, the black renge pattern looks stunning to me, but it turns out to be a good finisher as well. The stone was wobbly so I cast a polyurethane base around it.


----------



## tcmx3

PineWood said:


> The bottom one is obviously a shiro suita. It looks like an Ohira stone... Just kidding guys! The mine is unknown but I have seen Okudo stones that look very similar.



if you told me "this is an Okudo kuro renge" I would definitely believe you.


----------



## Rameka

I recently won an auction for a stone that has kuro and aka renge on it. I'd never seen both colors of renge on the same stone before so I had to take a shot at it, and I kind of can't believe I won it. I'll post pics of it when it shows up in the mail.


----------



## YG420

Got a couple of vintage koma naguras


----------



## Hassanbensober

Seen a bunch of these kuro renge on the market lately. Nice big one here. Made tomo nagura out of a problem corner.


----------



## Rameka

This just arrived today. I'll take better pictures at a later date with my DSLR because this cellphone pic definitely doesn't do the full spectrum of colors justice. The aka renge patch starts off dark purple on the one side and lightens up in a gradient to a warm pink towards the middle.


----------



## tcmx3

anyone wanna speculate on what this is? in real life the yellow/red are a fair bit more prominent; phone just couldnt capture it accurately.

it's an interesting stone, very much medium hardness. contrast is absolutely unreal. would love to know what I can before I lap these stamps off


----------



## spaceconvoy

NARUTAKI Maruichi Nashiji for Razor Sharpening Sharpening Stone 15oz.







www.aframestokyo.com





This has the exact same stamps, with the addition of "razor size" on the left.


----------



## Rameka

Picked this suita up recently. Perhaps not the most striking on first glance, but there is a lot going on with this stone. Some aka renge, some kuro renge (very tiny kuro flecks all over like goma), some gorgeous olive-gold kawa, and some wild turquoise inclusions on the end corners. The seller said it's Ohira, but...you know *shrug*.

I impulse-bought it because it's so unique but it's a little excessive for me (~1.1kg) and I have some smaller palm suitas I like more that do the same job for me. If anyone is interested, feel free to DM me, I don't have enough posts to list it in the BST yet.


----------



## tcmx3

Rameka said:


> Picked this suita up recently. Perhaps not the most striking on first glance, but there is a lot going on with this stone. Some aka renge, some kuro renge (very tiny kuro flecks all over like goma), some gorgeous olive-gold kawa, and some wild turquoise inclusions on the end corners. The seller said it's Ohira, but...you know *shrug*.
> 
> I impulse-bought it because it's so unique but it's a little excessive for me (~1.1kg) and I have some smaller palm suitas I like more that do the same job for me. If anyone is interested, feel free to DM me, I don't have enough posts to list it in the BST yet.



that's a good looking stone. these can range from awful to incredible. that looks a lot like my hatahanka stamped on, which is a real performer. good hardness and very fast.


----------



## Grayswandir

Rameka said:


> Picked this suita up recently. Perhaps not the most striking on first glance, but there is a lot going on with this stone. Some aka renge, some kuro renge (very tiny kuro flecks all over like goma), some gorgeous olive-gold kawa, and some wild turquoise inclusions on the end corners. The seller said it's Ohira, but...you know *shrug*.
> 
> I impulse-bought it because it's so unique but it's a little excessive for me (~1.1kg) and I have some smaller palm suitas I like more that do the same job for me. If anyone is interested, feel free to DM me, I don't have enough posts to list it in the BST yet.


I just bought a stone from Japan from an auction site. It was labeled an old barbers stone, so far I really like it.






It has little black dots on the surface, kind of that pear skin look they call "Nashiji", but it's hard to tell from the photo. I'm not sure if it's a Kiita stone or not, but it's on the harder side, probably between level 4.5-5.0. All I know about kiita stones is that it translates to "yellow plate", after that I'm completely ignorant in regards to their specific qualities.


----------



## musicman980

Grayswandir said:


> I just bought a stone from Japan from an auction site. It was labeled an old barbers stone, so far I really like it.
> It has little black dots on the surface, kind of that pear skin look they call "Nashiji", but it's hard to tell from the photo. I'm not sure if it's a Kiita stone or not, but it's on the harder side, probably between level 4.5-5.0. All I know about kiita stones is that it translates to "yellow plate", after that I'm completely ignorant in regards to their specific qualities.



Cool stone, you should post some more pics of it. The black dots are called goma, nashiji are more of a thicker brownish dot. The "kiita" layer is a "tomae" layer with a yellow/orange coloration, not to be confused with a pale or beige "asagi" tomae which could look similar at first glance.


----------



## Grayswandir

musicman980 said:


> Cool stone, you should post some more pics of it. The black dots are called goma, nashiji are more of a thicker brownish dot. The "kiita" layer is a "tomae" layer with a yellow/orange coloration, not to be confused with a pale or beige "asagi" tomae which could look similar at first glance.



Thank you, I think I lucked out, I paid around $75 after shipping and taxes, not too bad. I've been looking around and similar stones seem to be going anywhere between $150-$250 dollars, depending on the mine they came from. I really wish I knew where the stone came from, but in the end it's all about how the stone performs, and it performs really well. In my head it's a Nakayama, in reality I have no idea! 

There is some carving on the bottom of the stone that looks like Kanji to me (two symbols), so maybe that will reveal some information where the stone comes from?

I thought goma were supposed to be like black sesame seeds? I'll have to do a little photo shoot of the stone. I'll post a close up of the dots for you, they're very small. I still need to seal the bottom of the stone. I'm just going to use some finger nail polish, as I don't have the cash for cashew lacquer. It seems to work well enough on my nagura stones, and I already applied some to the sides of the stone. It's not as pretty as the cashew lacquer, but it gets the job done.


----------



## Rameka

Grayswandir said:


> I just bought a stone from Japan from an auction site. It was labeled an old barbers stone, so far I really like it.



There are a few J-auction sellers who liquidate "old barber hones", I've picked up a few. Sometimes they're garbage but sometimes they turn out to be gems like yours. They all tend to be bench dimensions but on the smaller side for weight, which I love.
Here's a fairly fine/hard one I picked up a while ago, think it might be a red Ohira. It was a bit greasy when I got it, so I think one of the previous owners must have used it as an oilstone at one point. After a long IPA soak it now accepts a top-layer of water without beading, though it is not very thirsty. Neat colors on this one.


----------



## Grayswandir

Rameka said:


> There are a few J-auction sellers who liquidate "old barber hones", I've picked up a few. Sometimes they're garbage but sometimes they turn out to be gems like yours. They all tend to be bench dimensions but on the smaller side for weight, which I love.
> Here's a fairly fine/hard one I picked up a while ago, think it might be a red Ohira. It was a bit greasy when I got it, so I think one of the previous owners must have used it as an oilstone at one point. After a long IPA soak it now accepts a top-layer of water without beading, though it is not very thirsty. Neat colors on this one.


That's a really nice looking stone! It's interesting how the strata run horizontal, I don't think I've seen that before, or never noticed if I did. There are a lot of bench sized stones being auctioned, but I was attracted to the smaller koppa stones. The one I have is around 526g. and fits in the hand really well. I do need to pick up a larger stone at some point, the extra real estate can be pretty useful. 

How much did you pay for your stone, and what auction site did you use?


----------



## Rameka

Grayswandir said:


> That's a really nice looking stone! It's interesting how the strata run horizontal, I don't think I've seen that before, or never noticed if I did. There are a lot of bench sized stones being auctioned, but I was attracted to the smaller koppa stones. The one I have is around 526g. and fits in the hand really well. I do need to pick up a larger stone at some point, the extra real estate can be pretty useful.
> 
> How much did you pay for your stone, and what auction site did you use?



Yeah, I haven't seen too many with the horizontal striations either. I'm a sucker for a unique stone.
I think that one was from the Yahoo JP auction listings. I can't recall what I paid off the top of my head, but I've gotten some good deals on there. Might have gotten that one in a bulk sale.


----------



## Grayswandir

Rameka said:


> Yeah, I haven't seen too many with the horizontal striations either. I'm a sucker for a unique stone.
> I think that one was from the Yahoo JP auction listings. I can't recall what I paid off the top of my head, but I've gotten some good deals on there. Might have gotten that one in a bulk sale.



I use Buyee, which is a proxy bidding service for Yahoo. Don't pay for order consolidation if you by from multiple sellers. It winds up being more expensive when it's supposed to cut shipping costs. I'm still upset about that, no one likes to get scammed. It looks like a very nice stone, did you lap it yourself?


----------



## Rameka

Grayswandir said:


> I use Buyee, which is a proxy bidding service for Yahoo. Don't pay for order consolidation if you by from multiple sellers. It winds up being more expensive when it's supposed to cut shipping costs. I'm still upset about that, no one likes to get scammed. It looks like a very nice stone, did you lap it yourself?


I've used Buyee as well with moderate success. In my experience, consolidation can go either way. It is very much a question of striking a balance between weight and volume. The minimum box size for shipping is larger than most individual stones, but if you go above the weight threshold for a given service, you'll pay more. It's definitely a bit of a guessing game though and Buyee of course gets their piece of the pie no matter how you slice it.
I don't speak Japanese so I appreciate the value of a proxy service. But yeah, I get your frustration...shipping the items from the seller to the proxy, then from the proxy to you, and then having to pay duties on top of all that...it certainly doesn't work out to cheap. But then again, we're talking about buying old rocks. Niche hobbies are expensive.

Edit: Nope, haven't lapped it. It came nice and flat.


----------



## Grayswandir

That's very true, and I do recognize all of the above! 

I had to lap my stone, but I knew that before I won the auction. I actually enjoy lapping stones, as long as they're not super hard like a black ark or similar.


----------



## Froztitanz




----------



## benito




----------



## cantdecidewhichone

Froztitanz said:


> View attachment 162415
> 
> View attachment 162416
> 
> View attachment 162417



I don’t know what any if these are but wow they’re nice!


----------



## Froztitanz

cantdecidewhichone said:


> I don’t know what any if these are but wow they’re nice!



It's stated on my ig account
Left to right, top to bottom.
1. Natsuya
2. Natsuya
3. Aizu
4. Tajima
5. Maruoyama Ao Suita Namazu
6. Maruoyama Ao Suita Tenkasumi
7. Umajiyama Renge Suita
8. Shinden Suita
9. Shoubudani Karasu
10. Shoubudani Renge Suita Suminagashi
11. Ohira Renge Sunashi Suita Suminagashi
12. Ozuku Habutae Suita
13. Nakayama Maruka Namito
14. Shoubudani Maruka Asagi


----------



## SundayGourmet

I picked up a pretty sweet paperweight recently. I hear it also polishes knives well too.


----------



## KO88

SundayGourmet said:


> I picked up a pretty sweet paperweight recently. I hear it also polishes knives well too.
> 
> View attachment 170441


Nahh useless for sharpening. But I need to weight some papers. I pay for shipping don't worry


----------



## naader

SundayGourmet said:


> I picked up a pretty sweet paperweight recently. I hear it also polishes knives well too.
> 
> View attachment 170441


This stone traded hands a few times before leaving Japan via auction, pretty sure it was originally stamped as an okudo suita.


----------



## SundayGourmet

Can you guys tell me more about this stone? I bought it a while back but never use it. It was listed as Ohira Tomae.


----------



## naader

SundayGourmet said:


> Can you guys tell me more about this stone? I bought it a while back but never use it. It was listed as Ohira Tomae.


Typical brown tomae, there's a lot of garbage that looks like that but occasionally you can find real treasures too. That one looks a bit on the harder side, test it out!


----------



## SundayGourmet

naader said:


> Typical brown tomae, there's a lot of garbage that looks like that but occasionally you can find real treasures too. That one looks a bit on the harder side, test it out!


It is hard. I've tried it. Pretty nice. I just don't know where id use it in progression with my other stones. How would you use it?


----------



## Millertime1111

SundayGourmet said:


> Can you guys tell me more about this stone? I bought it a while back but never use it. It was listed as Ohira Tomae.


To my knowledge, Imanishi usually indicates the hardness of these tomae stones in the upper left hand corner of the stone. I believe the one you have is rated medium.


----------



## naader

SundayGourmet said:


> It is hard. I've tried it. Pretty nice. I just don't know where id use it in progression with my other stones. How would you use it?


Can't say without actually testing haha


----------



## zizirex

naader said:


> Typical brown tomae, there's a lot of garbage that looks like that but occasionally you can find real treasures too. That one looks a bit on the harder side, test it out!


I was thinking about getting one of these. I am looking at the harder one but I don't know if it's really trash or I need to test it out first.


----------



## naader

zizirex said:


> I was thinking about getting one of these. I am looking at the harder one but I don't know if it's really trash or I need to test it out first.


I've lapped stamps off dozens of these brown ohira tomae and while there were some killer finds, a lot of them also ended up as decorations in my mother's garden. Test first if you can.


----------



## SundayGourmet

naader said:


> I've lapped stamps off dozens of these brown ohira tomae and while there were some killer finds, a lot of them also ended up as decorations in my mother's garden. Test first if you can.


What are the qualities you look for in a killer find?


----------



## naader

SundayGourmet said:


> What are the qualities you look for in a killer find?


It really just comes down to performance. The range in what you could consider a nice polish is so wide and variable for every hardness that it's kind of impossible to explain with words


----------



## Hassanbensober

Huge Aizu. Soft and coarse. 3000+grams.


----------



## naader

Hassanbensober said:


> Huge Aizu. Soft and coarse. 3000+grams. View attachment 172461
> View attachment 172462
> View attachment 172463
> View attachment 172464
> View attachment 172465
> View attachment 172466
> View attachment 172467


real beauty but it isn't aizu


----------



## Hassanbensober

naader said:


> real beauty but it isn't aizu


Thanks for the help as always. Only other guess I would have would iyoto


----------



## spaceconvoy

Hassanbensober said:


> Thanks for the help as always. Only other guess I would have would iyoto








Amakusa medium fine natural stones | watanabe blade


Amakusa, medium fine grit of natural stones. You can get beautiful Hamon.




www.kitchen-knife.jp




Amakusa? Check out #16 on Watanabe's page - second from the left, bottom row


----------



## Hassanbensober

spaceconvoy said:


> Amakusa medium fine natural stones | watanabe blade
> 
> 
> Amakusa, medium fine grit of natural stones. You can get beautiful Hamon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchen-knife.jp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amakusa? Check out #16 on Watanabe's page - second from the left, bottom row


I certainly have egg on my face for posting an assumption of aizu. Stone is loaded with green spots and the chip in the side is green also so it had the look I suppose. Seller I acquired it from had it listed as aizu as well. I don’t think it’s amakusa either I have many. It’s a nice piece hope everyone enjoys seeing it.


----------



## domrun

Hassanbensober said:


> I certainly have egg on my face for posting an assumption of aizu. Stone is loaded with green spots and the chip in the side is green also so it had the look I suppose. Seller I acquired it from had it listed as aizu as well. I don’t think it’s amakusa either I have many. It’s a nice piece hope everyone enjoys seeing it.


Very beautiful and intriguing stone.
It looks like a Natsuya with an erased pattern


----------



## Pie

“Guys, I think we’re getting to the good part”

Posted this one before, but it’s changed a bit after lapping. Bigger, brighter pinks and these weird matte yellow bits I can’t really describe.


----------



## DanielC




----------



## ethompson

Gonna send those pictures to my wife to show her what an actual "rock problem" (her words) could look like


----------



## Martyn

It's stone day today - a beautiful full size white Tam O Shanter + slurry stone, a Dalmore Blue and a British Slate -


----------



## Martyn

Martyn said:


> It's stone day today - a beautiful full size white Tam O Shanter + slurry stone, a Dalmore Blue and a British Slate -
> View attachment 176720


Today's new stone is a full size grey Tam O Shanter - 





Makes a lovely pair with yesterday's white Tam - 





I guess I will call them "Tam the Grey" and "Tam the White" - 





Something like this -


----------



## Pie

I have a question re: some of these non Japanese natural stones - at the bevel setting coarseness, say around 800, is there a stone in existence that keeps pace with synthetics? Or anywhere close?


----------



## refcast

@Pie 
haha . . . the tan aoto I had the gigantic 14 lb one, was very close to synthetic in speed


----------



## Pie

refcast said:


> @Pie
> haha . . . the tan aoto I had the gigantic 14 lb one, was very close to synthetic in speed


If I bought that stone my wife would kill me with it


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## stringer

Pie said:


> I have a question re: some of these non Japanese natural stones - at the bevel setting coarseness, say around 800, is there a stone in existence that keeps pace with synthetics? Or anywhere close?



Yes, with qualifications and caveats. Some natural stones will do it. But you have to adjust your technique a bit. Mainly, more pressure. And they work better for edges than polishing. And they also work better with low alloy steels. And most of them work better with oil than water. But what you are looking for is novaculite. Turkish, cretan, soft Arkansas, washita, etc.






The Washita Thread


Lets discuss the Washita here. History, sharpening experiences or sharing pictures of your stones. I'm not an expert on Washita's or any stone for that matter but I know enough that I would like to dispel a very common myth that is perpetuated by some self proclaimed experts that should know...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## ethompson

A few years ago I bought a uchi thinking “you really on need one jnat.” We all know that’s not true. Bottom 5 all all Ohira - suita, 4x uchigumori. Top - Okudo suita, nakayama suita, misc. koppa/nagura, aoto, and unknown midgrit


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## tcmx3

ethompson said:


> A few years ago I bought a uchi thinking “you really on need one jnat.” We all know that’s not true. Bottom 5 all all Ohira - suita, 4x uchigumori. Top - Okudo suita, nakayama suita, misc. koppa/nagura, aoto, and unknown midgritView attachment 177091



how do you like that okudo?


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## ethompson

tcmx3 said:


> how do you like that okudo?


Quite well! Great for edges when I want a ton of refinement and leaves a very detailed polish too.


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## Heckel7302

Really starting to feel like a member of the club. Thanks to the generous KKF members for selling me these beautiful specimens. 

It’s all @ethompson fault. We got into a conversation about fingerstones and he told me I should get some jnats. He sent me some fingerstones and threw in the Nakayama Koppa. That was it. One taste and I’m spinning down the rabbit hole.


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## ethompson

It only gets worse


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## D J

Happy to see I'm not alone in the hole


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## Pie

A bit of a strange one… Ozuku suita. Which suita? No idea. Dirt cheap, no description, just theoretical pedigree - and I do like the suita I have very much. I’ve never encountered in my brief jnat history an ozuku suita. I do have a random koppa from the same mine, and it’s insanely hard and slow. 








Pretty vanilla looking, two toned separated by what looks like a serious crack, with maybe some light grey suminagashi if you have a strong imagination. The back shows the same mottling and some color, although I don’t expect it to ever show. I’m very curious as to how it behaves. I would like to think I’m at the point where I can ballpark the stones’ attributes.. if all else fails, a head to head with the other stones should be telling. 




Edit: does anyone know what that says? I got the first and last kanji, but that’s about it. I fear some serious lapping is in order and those stamps are going to be history.


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## D J

Not sure but 3 ohira suita's I have, have very similar mark as the top mark on that stone. I don't know kanji, but there's definitely more knowledgeable people here. The bottom stone is the ohira in the last picture.


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## ethompson

I have a few hunches what this big slab might be, but would be curious what those with deeper knowledge bases might think. It’s silky soft, finishes like a fine uchigumori, and is very fast. Not the most detail, but plenty of contrast. Beautiful robins egg blue with some rusty streaks, namazu, and renge. For sure a suita of some variety.


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## D J

Looks kinda like maruo


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## Pie

D J said:


> Looks kinda like maruo


Agree. The reverse namazu on the light blue, feel, and result sure sound like how marouyama.. I’ve rarely seen the tan splashes before but I haven’t seen many in the first place. If it is marou, that’s *huge*.


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## D J

Yes a very nice stone


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## D J

My much smaller maruo looks similar it was called, shiki uchigumori. It has a very creamy feel when sharpening but I've not used it for polishing yet, which is what it's meant to be used for I believe


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## ethompson

Thanks all for the input. Wanted to see what people thought. I too think a Maruo shiki uchigumori is a possibility. My other thought was Umaji suita. The unfortunate reality is I’ll never know for sure, I think. But, a nice pickup none the less!


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## Hassanbensober

ethompson said:


> I have a few hunches what this big slab might be, but would be curious what those with deeper knowledge bases might think. It’s silky soft, finishes like a fine uchigumori, and is very fast. Not the most detail, but plenty of contrast. Beautiful robins egg blue with some rusty streaks, namazu, and renge. For sure a suita of some variety.
> View attachment 185572


I couldn’t guess on the mine. Looks like the stone face could be cut on a different plane than we normally see. I have something similar going on with this stone and that’s what I was told.


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## musicman980

Antique Iromono with hand sawn sides. Amazing soft and luxurious feedback, but it’s super fine and hard enough to finish a razor. A really beautiful and easy stone to use.


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## Pie

Current stones for daily use, plus new koppa. The Nakayama kan and small suita are fighting for who’s the last step before high finisher. Aoto and iyoto fighting for meats duty. Uchigumori sits on the [completely subjective] polishing throne, with no competitor. All is well.


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## ethompson

Gah! I covet my neighbors uchi (and everything else really)


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## Pie

ethompson said:


> Gah! I covet my neighbors uchi (and everything else really)


I’m guilty of the same


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## ethompson

I think this ohira has enough renge


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## Greasylake

Pie said:


> A bit of a strange one… Ozuku suita. Which suita? No idea. Dirt cheap, no description, just theoretical pedigree - and I do like the suita I have very much. I’ve never encountered in my brief jnat history an ozuku suita. I do have a random koppa from the same mine, and it’s insanely hard and slow.
> View attachment 184348
> 
> View attachment 184350
> 
> Pretty vanilla looking, two toned separated by what looks like a serious crack, with maybe some light grey suminagashi if you have a strong imagination. The back shows the same mottling and some color, although I don’t expect it to ever show. I’m very curious as to how it behaves. I would like to think I’m at the point where I can ballpark the stones’ attributes.. if all else fails, a head to head with the other stones should be telling. View attachment 184354
> 
> 
> Edit: does anyone know what that says? I got the first and last kanji, but that’s about it. I fear some serious lapping is in order and those stamps are going to be history.


The first two kanji are: 大突 = ozuku (mine)
I think the 3rd and 4th are 巣板 (suita) and the last naturally is 山
So I guess that didn't really tell you anything you didn't already know haha


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## Greasylake

Testing this aoto I received today


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## Wabisabi-Ken

Got this lump of natsuya today, spent ages grinding out the saw marks but I must say it looks pretty nice! My first real sized jnat, I got my first small jnat less than two months ago and have since been gathering koppas since. This one seems a bit harder and finer than other examples I have seen, it doesn't produce much mud and leaves a pretty good polish on the blade with decent contrast. I have an aizu coming my way shortly and probably another natsuya so it will be interesting to see the difference between the two.













Also does anyone have any suggestions on how to grind down the rough saw marks quickly? I was using a concrete block but it seemed about the same speed as my atoma 400. I also had a go with a belt sander but it clogged up the belt since it was wet from already grinding down on concrete. Also not having stone dust everywhere would be nice


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## deltaplex

Wabisabi-Ken said:


> Got this lump of natsuya today, spent ages grinding out the saw marks but I must say it looks pretty nice! My first real sized jnat, I got my first small jnat less than two months ago and have since been gathering koppas since. This one seems a bit harder and finer than other examples I have seen, it doesn't produce much mud and leaves a pretty good polish on the blade with decent contrast. I have an aizu coming my way shortly and probably another natsuya so it will be interesting to see the difference between the two.View attachment 188436
> View attachment 188437
> 
> View attachment 188438
> View attachment 188439
> 
> Also does anyone have any suggestions on how to grind down the rough saw marks quickly? I was using a concrete block but it seemed about the same speed as my atoma 400. I also had a go with a belt sander but it clogged up the belt since it was wet from already grinding down on concrete. Also not having stone dust everywhere would be nice


Starting on concrete is probably the best way to go about the rough work. I'd probably add some loose SiC to the mix, but iirc that's not very easy/economical to come by for you. I'd probably "finish" the surface using a harder, finer, stone if you had one, but you can get away with just doing some thinning work on it post rough grind.


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## Hassanbensober

Wabisabi-Ken said:


> Got this lump of natsuya today, spent ages grinding out the saw marks but I must say it looks pretty nice! My first real sized jnat, I got my first small jnat less than two months ago and have since been gathering koppas since. This one seems a bit harder and finer than other examples I have seen, it doesn't produce much mud and leaves a pretty good polish on the blade with decent contrast. I have an aizu coming my way shortly and probably another natsuya so it will be interesting to see the difference between the two.View attachment 188436
> View attachment 188437
> 
> View attachment 188438
> View attachment 188439
> 
> Also does anyone have any suggestions on how to grind down the rough saw marks quickly? I was using a concrete block but it seemed about the same speed as my atoma 400. I also had a go with a belt sander but it clogged up the belt since it was wet from already grinding down on concrete. Also not having stone dust everywhere would be nice


P80 coarse silicone carbide sandpaper works like a charm. Kind of pricey though.


----------



## wr5aw56

maxim said:


> With Jnats i have and all of you have
> Please post pics of your J-nat ! All stones is welcome from all vendors. Also some other Natural stones too !


Just got my first. It was gifted by a good friend. It's an Ohira Tomae from the Imanishi stone company in Kyoto, was mined in the early 70s, graded by Mr. Imanishi, and was stored in his basement.

I have to say it's a fantastic finisher. I use an Atoma 1200 to work up the slurry which is silky smooth. I'm loving this stone.


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## Wabisabi-Ken

Holy s#&t that escalated quickly! Went full retard, it all started with a knife and a king stone a few months ago... Now I fear my desk may fall over under the weight of jnats and the constant rocking back and forth from testing them out.


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## agp

Help me understand, _functionally_, what does jnat have over synthetic stones?


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## ethompson

Depends on your use. For polishing, natural stones can do kasumi and burnishing better than any synth. You can get finishes off a natural that cannot be replicated with synthetic stones. For edges, many report getting better tooth at a given refinement level and longer lasting edges, but I'm a touch more skeptical about that, even though I do always finish my edges with naturals these days.


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## Pie

Wabisabi-Ken said:


> Holy s#&t that escalated quickly! Went full retard, it all started with a knife and a king stone a few months ago... Now I fear my desk may fall over under the weight of jnats and the constant rocking back and forth from testing them out. View attachment 189766
> 
> View attachment 189767


My friend it appears you may be living the dream.


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## Wabisabi-Ken

Pie said:


> My friend it appears you may be living the dream.


You mean the "nightmare" haha nah it's good, I am definitely lucky!


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## captaincaed

Somewhere he unwisely turned his back on the much cheaper "hookers and blow” option.


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## Wabisabi-Ken

captaincaed said:


> Somewhere he unwisely turned his back on the much cheaper "hookers and blow” option.


Yeah when they asked if I wanted to get my rocks off I had better ideas...


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## Olsen

Wabisabi-Ken said:


> Holy s#&t that escalated quickly! Went full retard, it all started with a knife and a king stone a few months ago... Now I fear my desk may fall over under the weight of jnats and the constant rocking back and forth from testing them out. View attachment 189766


Very nice. The three stones in the front what are they? The two light gray could look like aizus


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## Wabisabi-Ken

Olsen said:


> Very nice. The three stones in the front what are they? The two light gray could look like aizus


Yep! Two aizu, the orange is a natsuya


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## sunn

Hey, I am a new forum member. Here I want to share two pics of my favourite stone. A bright shirosuita.


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## deltaplex

How about pics of what kind of finish it leaves?


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## DHunter86

Interesting piece, which mine is it from?


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## Hassanbensober

Looks like hideriyama.


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## Patinated

ethompson said:


> View attachment 186517
> 
> 
> I think this ohira has enough renge


She is very photogenic for sure!


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## sunn

I was told it's an ohira. But no proof. I bought it from a very kind guy from another forum. I only sharpen with it up to now, so I cant* show a kasumi pic. My mobile isn't good enough to show the blade properly. But it is nice and toothy. No mirror. But best for kitchen knives. It only has difficulties with Ginsan steel. Vg10, aus10 , aogami, ao super are a charm on this one.*


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## sunn

This one is big like an aircraft carrier lol.
I bought it with the cryptic description Atago Karasu. That's it. Hard af. Finer than the shiro. This one handles Ginsan knives much better. It handles all steels I have. Feedback isn't as good as the shiro but the outcome is awesome. Kitchen paper slaughterer.


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## deltaplex

Did you put that dimension and weight label on it?


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## sunn

No, the seller did.


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## Greasylake

Stone itself isn't so pretty but it did some fun stuff on my cladding, can we call that wabi-sabi??


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## ethompson

I had a bunch of large odd shaped raw jnats so today I made them nicer to use rectangular JNats with a wet tile saw. 







It even worked nicely to level a big bench nagura that came with a super wonky chiseled bottom. What would’ve been an hour with an atoma took no time. Photo is actually the second thin slice I took off, another that thickness but half as long came off first.




I’ll make another post when I get home, but broke down a massive aiiwatani, trimmed up two suitas, an aiiwatani kiita, a takashima, a nakayama mariuchi asagi with a nasty line at the edge, an aoto, and the afore mentioned nagura. Also got plenty of finger-stone slices and several nice tomo naguras.


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## Wabisabi-Ken

Spent some time playing around on some jnats and have noticed sometimes I get a pattern of the mud left on the blade, kinda etched in. Could it have something to do with the stone possibly being slightly acidic or something like that? I try to wipe the mud off as soon as possible but its too late!


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## captaincaed

I've heard that some stones are acidic and need a baking soda rinse after. 

When I smell my chunk of uchi, it’s alka seltzer and gives my nose that tingly feeling. I’d put money on it being a bit acidic.


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## refcast

@Wabisabi-Ken 

The faster you see the stone turn the swarf from black to red, the more reactive the stone is, and likely to leave etching or paitina marks on the knife


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## Wabisabi-Ken

refcast said:


> @Wabisabi-Ken
> 
> The faster you see the stone turn the swarf from black to red, the more reactive the stone is, and likely to leave etching or paitina marks on the knife


I see! Good to know, is there any way to counteract this? Is this characteristic useful in any way either?


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## ethompson

Put a little washing soda in a squeeze or squirt bottle with water and use that instead of water from the sink.


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## refcast

You'd have to use slightly alkaline water, yeah.

The etching ability is good if you like using the slurry to watch and darken iron but I've never personally been successful enough


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## ethompson

It’s also my understanding that this phenomenon is primarily the sulphur content of stones reacting with the water to create a weak acid. If you get one that is really reactive (such as pretty much all ohira ao renge) the sulphur smell is quite obvious


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## ethompson

End game hard-minus finishing stone for me. Feel very fortunate to have gotten this one - Nakayama suita with Maruka stamp. The base polish for the video should’ve been cleaner and I could’ve spent longer working the stone, but for a quick polish the quality of the stone is evident.









Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## HumbleHomeCook

ethompson said:


> End game hard-minus finishing stone for me. Feel very fortunate to have gotten this one - Nakayama suita with Maruka stamp. The base polish for the video should’ve been cleaner and I could’ve spent longer working the stone, but for a quick polish the quality of the stone is evident.
> View attachment 191844
> 
> View attachment 191845



Aw, so that's you on IG. Gave it a  on there first thing this morning!


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## Wabisabi-Ken

6 seconds is just far too short you tease, gotta watch it over and over again. What's your insta, hand over the goods! @ethompson


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## ethompson

Wabisabi-Ken said:


> 6 seconds is just far too short you tease, gotta watch it over and over again. What's your insta, hand over the goods! @ethompson


edt_knivesnstones 

This is by far my most impressive specimen so don’t expect to be inundated with rock-porn haha


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## Jurrian

Finish of a nakayama suita on a Kisuke Manaka. Its work in progress, but the finish is worth showing.


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## Wabisabi-Ken

Yeyyyyy I'm baaaaaack, had a problem where the option to post images was greyed out. Anyway, was playing with some jnats and came across some cool detailing in the cladding of a knife that had been lying around for a while. I earlier made a post about getting maybe a nice kiridashi for testing polishes on jnats but cool ones are damn expensive. Now I have this knife I'm not fussed about the kiridashi although it would still be cool to have..

From this 




to this! Still some low spots but it'll even out eventually 


it should be fun to see what brings out the detail in the cladding, are there any techniques for this? Or is it highly dependent on a case by case basis?


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## ethompson

That is beautiful! In general, harder stones show more detail than softer stones and finer stones show the detail with greater fidelity than coarser stones. You could also etch it to bring out even more banding, etc. but where is the fun in cheating like that?!


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## Wabisabi-Ken

ethompson said:


> That is beautiful! In general, harder stones show more detail than softer stones and finer stones show the detail with greater fidelity than coarser stones. You could also etch it to bring out even more banding, etc. but where is the fun in cheating like that?!



Haha yeah I have heard of people doing some etching, I'm really a fan of more subtle natural looking things in general (for example I'm not a big fan of most Damascus knives cause they just seem to look tackyish) so not sure if etching can go down that path. I should look into etching more though, I could be very wrong. It could be yet another interesting hole to dive into.


----------



## ew_ut

Wabisabi-Ken said:


> Yeyyyyy I'm baaaaaack, had a problem where the option to post images was greyed out. Anyway, was playing with some jnats and came across some cool detailing in the cladding of a knife that had been lying around for a while. I earlier made a post about getting maybe a nice kiridashi for testing polishes on jnats but cool ones are damn expensive. Now I have this knife I'm not fussed about the kiridashi although it would still be cool to have..
> 
> From this
> 
> View attachment 192261
> to this! Still some low spots but it'll even out eventually View attachment 192262
> it should be fun to see what brings out the detail in the cladding, are there any techniques for this? Or is it highly dependent on a case by case basis?



I'm curious, how does one bring out detail like this? Continually rinse the stone? Something else? What kind of pressure did you use? It looks great


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## ethompson

Wabisabi-Ken said:


> Haha yeah I have heard of people doing some etching, I'm really a fan of more subtle natural looking things in general (for example I'm not a big fan of most Damascus knives cause they just seem to look tackyish) so not sure if etching can go down that path. I should look into etching more though, I could be very wrong. It could be yet another interesting hole to dive into.


I definitely prefer subtle natural stone finishes too, but etching does have a role and is a useful tool


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

ew_ut said:


> I'm curious, how does one bring out detail like this? Continually rinse the stone? Something else? What kind of pressure did you use? It looks great


The detail is inherently in the steel itself. I started on it with a king 800 which lays down a heavy contrast and I could see that detail was present which got me excited. So I went to atoma 400 to flatten it out then go through the steps of getting scratches out. It's the jnats that really refine the way it looks, that was just my first test so I'll experiment with a few different ones to see what looks best. As for pressure I guess from my little experience so far the more pressure I use on certain stones it tends to burnish. Leaving a glossier finish with less contrast


----------



## deltaplex

Wabisabi-Ken said:


> The detail is inherently in the steel itself. I started on it with a king 800 which lays down a heavy contrast and I could see that detail was present which got me excited. So I went to atoma 400 to flatten it out then go through the steps of getting scratches out. It's the jnats that really refine the way it looks, that was just my first test so I'll experiment with a few different ones to see what looks best. As for pressure I guess from my little experience so far the more pressure I use on certain stones it tends to burnish. Leaving a glossier finish with less contrast


Did you pull that detail out with a Natsuya?


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

deltaplex said:


> Did you pull that detail out with a Natsuya?


Yeah I'm finding the natsuyas to be great for bringing out detail! If only they were a bit finer and didn't leave any visible scratchiness haha


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## ethompson

Yeah, the hardness of a good natsuya excels at bringing out detail. If you can manage the slurry and water long enough you can get a smoother finish, but never as subtle a scratch pattern as something finer. They’re really excellent working finishes though as it’s much easier to touch up after actually using the knife etc.


----------



## Jurrian

Hi, the details of the carbon migration during the forging process will come out when the foundation is made clean, a flat surface helps. You can also make a more convex shape, but that’s more difficult. 
Hard and fine stones make a mirror like finish with a lot of detail. But softer stones like a softer ohira suita, maruoyama suita etc, can also bring a lot of detail. 
Contrast between the core and the clad are really important. Focus on blue (aogami) or white (shirogami). Their Europe counterparts can produce good result l, especially 135c3 (equivalent shirogami) 
For scratchless; slurry with light pressure, clean stone, lap, clean of the slurry and use water as a lubricant. This is difficult, the knife can get stuck a little. 
I have a video on Instagram:


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

Think I can make it to 50 shades of Aizu?

Just got this big green ol' green brick. I thought the one next to it was exceptionally green but oh no. It doesn't seem to have as much of that white haze to it... Maybe it's not an Aizu at all, does anyone know of other green jnats? I guess I should test them against each other and see who stays and who goes, maybe I'll chop the small one up to make nagura.


----------



## YG420

Wabisabi-Ken said:


> Think I can make it to 50 shades of Aizu?
> 
> Just got this big green ol' green brick. I thought the one next to it was exceptionally green but oh no. It doesn't seem to have as much of that white haze to it... Maybe it's not an Aizu at all, does anyone know of other green jnats? I guess I should test them against each other and see who stays and who goes, maybe I'll chop the small one up to make nagura. View attachment 192600


Looks like an ikarsashi i had long time ago. They can look similar with the ikarashi usaully a bit more green


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## Wabisabi-Ken

YG420 said:


> Looks like an ikarsashi i had long time ago. They can look similar with the ikarashi usaully a bit more green


Good to know.. It behaved similar to aizu, maybe a bit softer? I'll have a look into it, thanks!


----------



## ethompson

Another vote for ikarashi on the bottom one


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## ethompson

My first go at building a dai. Could’ve been a little cleaner but given it’s my first try at both sharpening chisels and this, I’m pretty happy. Stone is a painfully soft but super fine nakayama iromono koppa







PS - plz ignore the blood stain I’ll sand off before sealing the dai… incident with a chisel…


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## SWF

Just received this beautiful stone, wonder how it will perform ...


----------



## Rameka

I haven't visited the forum for a bit (busy with school for the past 8 months...) so I had a few pages to catch up on. Some of you have some truly impressive collections...color me a tad jealous.
Here's one of my own favorite stones, a stunning rainbow iromono namito from Okunomon that I picked up sometime last year. Just over 1kg and perfect bench size. It's quite dished but I've been procrastinating lapping the stamps off. Orange, purple, green, and some namazu along the edges, it's got a bit of everything. My crappy cellphone pic doesn't do it justice (I really need to get my nice lenses out of storage and take proper pics sometime...).


----------



## 4wa1l

Picked up two new big stones. I emailed Yasuko at Ikkyu as I wanted to pick up a couple of stones mostly for edges but I'm always keen to try and polish too. She was super helpful and the stones were very reasonably priced.

I was interested in a finer Binsui as I figured it could be a nice toothy stone in the 2000ish range. I ended up getting a 2.8kg slab of a Shiro Binsui which seems ridiculously large when I mostly have cheaper little koppa. It was actually cut from a giant stone into multiple "smaller" stones. Still think some are available on the ebay store.

Def requires some help to get a slurry going but then seems to put down quite a nice even finish when polishing. It appears to burnish more than cut without the forced slurry. On the coarser side compared to my other jnats but I think it will work nicely as intended. Formed a burr quickly enough and felt like it gave a nice edge. Pictured next to a Morihei synthetic for a size comparison.









I also picked up another aoto. I liked my narrow Aono Aoto a lot and wanted a larger one. Yasuko sourced this 1.8kg Wachi Aoto. It behaves quite differently than my previous one. Nowhere near as thirsty or muddy but still self slurries with some pressure. Actually felt a bit better with some more diamond plate slurry. Holds the water and allows the mud to break down rather than continue to release a heap of new grit. I'm pretty stoked with this tbh. Polishing still probably not its strong suit as it has left some coarser scratches looking at it but we'll see.


----------



## Froztitanz

Sorry for the absence. Finally figured out why I couldn't upload these pics onto kkf initially.

In the meantime, do enjoy these truly top-tier jnats from Shoubudani.


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## Pie

You make heavy contrast, iyoto. Heavy indeed.


----------



## Froztitanz

Renge suitas:


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## EricEricEric

Can’t wait to see the finished product 



Pie said:


> You make heavy contrast, iyoto. Heavy indeed. View attachment 198118


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

Finally found an Aizu that doesn't leave rogue scratches that taint a kasumi, I've been keen on a fuss free kasumi that leaves a hazy matte look instead of mirror, I've been close before with aizu and natsuya but there's always those deeper little streaks that stand out. This one doesn't seem to have that problem, the best part is I got it for 50 bucks! 

I also scored a limited pair of kiridashi and I was blown away by finish on them. The softer steel is so dark and without any visible scratches. I'm curious what stone they were finished on because I haven't seen anything finished as dark as that.. I wonder if it's the steel too, I want to test them out on my finishing stones to see how they come out but want to just soak in their current finish for now . I'll have to ask the person I bought it off what stone was used. 







putting my aizu finish to shame


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## BeinM

babies first maruka


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## ethompson

Continuing the Aizu theme, 3.3kg of beautiful blue mid-grit goodness


----------



## Greasylake

Might be onto something with this one


----------



## Rangen

Greasylake said:


> Might be onto something with this one
> 
> View attachment 199366
> View attachment 199367


Nice! Most of my best JNats are kind of boring-looking, and that prized dull yellow is the best kind of boring.


----------



## Greasylake

Rangen said:


> Nice! Most of my best JNats are kind of boring-looking, and that prized dull yellow is the best kind of boring.


I like the brown ones too. They're clean consistent and cheap, what more could you ask for?


----------



## Pie

ethompson said:


> Continuing the Aizu theme, 3.3kg of beautiful blue mid-grit goodness
> View attachment 198553


Jeez dude. That should be censored


----------



## 4wa1l

4wa1l said:


> Picked up two new big stones. I emailed Yasuko at Ikkyu as I wanted to pick up a couple of stones mostly for edges but I'm always keen to try and polish too. She was super helpful and the stones were very reasonably priced.
> 
> I was interested in a finer Binsui as I figured it could be a nice toothy stone in the 2000ish range. I ended up getting a 2.8kg slab of a Shiro Binsui which seems ridiculously large when I mostly have cheaper little koppa. It was actually cut from a giant stone into multiple "smaller" stones. Still think some are available on the ebay store.
> 
> Def requires some help to get a slurry going but then seems to put down quite a nice even finish when polishing. It appears to burnish more than cut without the forced slurry. On the coarser side compared to my other jnats but I think it will work nicely as intended. Formed a burr quickly enough and felt like it gave a nice edge. Pictured next to a Morihei synthetic for a size comparison.
> 
> View attachment 197336
> View attachment 197338
> 
> 
> I also picked up another aoto. I liked my narrow Aono Aoto a lot and wanted a larger one. Yasuko sourced this 1.8kg Wachi Aoto. It behaves quite differently than my previous one. Nowhere near as thirsty or muddy but still self slurries with some pressure. Actually felt a bit better with some more diamond plate slurry. Holds the water and allows the mud to break down rather than continue to release a heap of new grit. I'm pretty stoked with this tbh. Polishing still probably not its strong suit as it has left some coarser scratches looking at it but we'll see.
> 
> View attachment 197337


This binsui is turning out to be a pretty solid stone to setup a polish after a 1000 grit stone. It absolutely needs some slurry generated or it doesn't do much. Once you have some slurry it turns black quickly and appears to do a nice job. I managed a pretty even finish on a little kiridashi and the scratches are only obvious when you look for them in harsh lighting.


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

Grabbed this mystery stone. Can't figure out what it is! Any guesses??

It's the one in the middle and to it's left is aizu and to the right ikarashi. I have them next to it for colour comparison, it is mostly greyish with a very slight blue, has some slight marbling like ikarashi and comes in at 4.5 on the hardness scale by weight and size but it feels softer. 

The sharpening feel is similar to ikarashi and aizu but the grit seems finer and tends to burnish more than anything, which is interesting, it seems to remove a dark kasumi quite quickly then gets to burnishing but leaves contrast and detail. 

It isn't really thirsty like ikarashi or aizu. I feel like the abraisive itself must be quite soft. But whatever is holding it all together is quite dense? If that makes sense..


----------



## refcast

@Wabisabi-Ken 

Looks like numata or a stone from that region


----------



## Marcelo Amaral

My first guess would be numata, also.


----------



## Bico Doce

I swore to myself I would never go down this rabbit hole - spending high end knife money on “rocks” but here I am.

I picked up this old hand sawn Ozuku recently. Im having a really good time learning how to use it (my first very fine finisher)










Here’s a go on an Milan in dirty wrought cladding


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## HumbleHomeCook

Get ready for the epic @Bico Doce stone sales!


----------



## Bico Doce

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Get ready for the epic @Bico Doce stone sales!


You got me, lol! I'm not sure if Im ready to lose that type of money just yet.

For knives I love the thrill of the sale so I take a shotgun approach. With stones so far Ive been using a stone guru to help me find the right stuff. Not as much excitement but certainly helps keep the budget in check and avoid buying duds. Im afraid if I started trying to source these myself on strange japanese auction sites my wife would divorce me


----------



## musicman980

Bico Doce said:


> I swore to myself I would never go down this rabbit hole - spending high end knife money on “rocks” but here I am.
> 
> I picked up this old hand sawn Ozuku recently. Im having a really good time learning how to use it (my first very fine finisher)
> 
> View attachment 200727
> View attachment 200728
> 
> 
> 
> Here’s a go on an Milan in dirty wrought cladding



Let's see those juicy hand sawn sides!


----------



## Bico Doce

musicman980 said:


> Let's see those juicy hand sawn sides!


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

Starting to build quite the collection of karasu these days, just got this one, love the patterning on it. It's much softer than all of the others I have being able to build mud with more pressure or still just cut away and produce swarf with lighter pressure.


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## ethompson

Big clean ohira uchi


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## Heckel7302

Got my first stone with stamps on it today. Testing it out and already seeing the stamps starting to go down the drain. I took pics first of course, but I hate seeing them go away. I know it’s all part of it, but how do you guys feel about grinding the stamps away?


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## ethompson

Stamps are between you and the good stuff - aka the smooth rock underneath. Don’t overthink it - smooth rock, smooth brain.


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## jedy617

Got this sweet Hakka suita in from a user on here. Is there a way this is classified besides suita? All I hear about is Shiro suita and other types of suita. Funny enough it looks very similar to my Hakka Tomae, I guess the stuff from the hakka mine are just very yellow?


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## jedy617

ethompson said:


> Stamps are between you and the good stuff - aka the smooth rock underneath. Don’t overthink it - smooth rock, smooth brain.


I am the smoothest of all brains. Therefore I am become best polisher. That's how this works right?


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## ethompson

Something like that


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## Greasylake

jedy617 said:


> I am the smoothest of all brains. Therefore I am become best polisher. That's how this works right?


----------



## refcast

@jedy617 

There were stone classifications by type, based on how many a person could carry down the mountain. So like a type 30 meant a person could be expected to carry 30 of those down the mountain . . . in the past.

Otherwise, Alex Gilmores Japan Stone site had some info on it, but overall, uh

Corners intact
Lines
Small patterns in the stone
Consistency of Color
Any big su (yours has some on the surface I think)
Any flaking
Transitions of color or layer
Kawa skin on side or back
Hand sawn or rotating saw
whether its from an eastern or western kyoto mine (relatively speaking), or another mine area

Shiro suita are super hard usually -- the deep layer ones. Shiro just means white, and I've seen it applied to shallow layer stones too if they are white and suita.

Basically these are all just observations, observe then and yeah, thats how stones are described


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## jedy617

refcast said:


> @jedy617
> 
> There were stone classifications by type, based on how many a person could carry down the mountain. So like a type 30 meant a person could be expected to carry 30 of those down the mountain . . . in the past.
> 
> Otherwise, Alex Gilmores Japan Stone site had some info on it, but overall, uh
> 
> Corners intact
> Lines
> Small patterns in the stone
> Consistency of Color
> Any big su (yours has some on the surface I think)
> Any flaking
> Transitions of color or layer
> Kawa skin on side or back
> Hand sawn or rotating saw
> whether its from an eastern or western kyoto mine (relatively speaking), or another mine area
> 
> Shiro suita are super hard usually -- the deep layer ones. Shiro just means white, and I've seen it applied to shallow layer stones too if they are white and suita.
> 
> Basically these are all just observations, observe then and yeah, thats how stones are described


Interesting, good to know!


----------



## Pie

Heckel7302 said:


> Got my first stone with stamps on it today. Testing it out and already seeing the stamps starting to go down the drain. I took pics first of course, but I hate seeing them go away. I know it’s all part of it, but how do you guys feel about grinding the stamps away?


It’s bittersweet. It means I’m actually using the piece of rock I paid how much for(?!), but also loses a piece of itself. Consider it the price of knowledge gained. 

One stamp half lingers on one of my stones. One day it’ll be gone and then I’ll have a nice completely flat big gray suita that I might know how to use properly. Maybe.

This hinging on the stamps being authentic of course. Which we all know is a complete crapshoot. So maybe it means nothing, but I haven’t lapped off a fake maruka stamp before so what do I know?


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## Grayswandir

Pie said:


> It’s bittersweet. It means I’m actually using the piece of rock I paid how much for(?!), but also loses a piece of itself. Consider it the price of knowledge gained.
> 
> One stamp half lingers on one of my stones. One day it’ll be gone and then I’ll have a nice completely flat big gray suita that I might know how to use properly. Maybe.
> 
> This hinging on the stamps being authentic of course. Which we all know is a complete crapshoot. So maybe it means nothing, but I haven’t lapped off a fake maruka stamp before so what do I know?


I wish the retailers would stamp the sides of the stone more often, then it wouldn't be a problem. I love the way the stamps look.


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## tcmx3

Grayswandir said:


> I wish the retailers would stamp the sides of the stone more often, then it wouldn't be a problem. I love the way the stamps look.



I feel the same way.

I think Maruo stones are typically stamped face + sides and this to me is ideal.

Granted I'm not sure I'll ever sell any of the stones I have left but who knows.


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## Hassanbensober

Hoping the forum friends can tell me more about these stones.
I know this stone by the name Boushouto (spelling could certainly be wrong) I first tried one on loan from another member who lives in my area. I really liked his and finally was able to source one of my own. 
It is deep purple in color and takes a black iridescent shine when wet. Pretty hard stone so too much pressure will scratch. Light slurry and light pressure and the stone polishes very well. Definitely in my top 5 currently.
Wondering if anyone knows where they come from? Maybe it’s something altogether different from what I think it is?
Thanks


----------



## Bico Doce

Hassanbensober said:


> Hoping the forum friends can tell me more about these stones.
> I know this stone by the name Boushouto (spelling could certainly be wrong) I first tried one on loan from another member who lives in my area. I really liked his and finally was able to source one of my own.
> It is deep purple in color and takes a black iridescent shine when wet. Pretty hard stone so too much pressure will scratch. Light slurry and light pressure and the stone polishes very well. Definitely in my top 5 currently.
> Wondering if anyone knows where they come from? Maybe it’s something altogether different from what I think it is?
> Thanks


Polish looks great. Interested to learn more about this stone myself


----------



## refcast

@Hassanbensober 

I've seen a couple of them on the jp auction but ahaha I've never read more about them

I did see a table that listed almost all the jnats in Japan, their location, and their mineral type, but I can't find the link.

I think something related to kiyond.blogspot but I can't seem to find it again


----------



## Hassanbensober

refcast said:


> @Hassanbensober
> 
> I've seen a couple of them on the jp auction but ahaha I've never read more about them
> 
> I did see a table that listed almost all the jnats in Japan, their location, and their mineral type, but I can't find the link.
> 
> I think something related to kiyond.blogspot but I can't seem to find it again


Thanks for the helpful lead @refcast 
Lots of interesting content in there to get sidetracked on. I’m already enjoying it. Hopefully when I have the time I’ll dig it up.


----------



## refcast

@Hassanbensober 






Japanese web info list


Instead of making many more different threads, I'll just post new findings in a single one. Blacksmith woodworking tool discussion blog: old and new http://dekoboko-supporter.blog.jp/ Old woodworking blacksmith masters and their design / performance http://blog.livedoor.jp/new_alces/ Info on...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





I have a post or two and pdf on it, use Google translate


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## musicman980

Nakayama Maruka, 208 x 76 x 42.


----------



## Legion74

Can anyone give me any info on this stone I found in the wild? For $330AU it was a bit pricey to buy without asking a few experts first.


----------



## sunn

PalmRoyale said:


> A sweet little 150x78mm suita of unknown origin. Paid just €65, including shipping, so who the hell cares what mine it's from.View attachment 119333


I think I got the brother here.


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## musicman980

Nakayama Maruka Kiita with a faint stamp. Super hard and fine, more for razors.


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

Martyn said:


> Today's new stone is a full size grey Tam O Shanter -
> View attachment 176863
> 
> 
> Makes a lovely pair with yesterday's white Tam -
> View attachment 176864
> 
> 
> I guess I will call them "Tam the Grey" and "Tam the White" -
> View attachment 176867
> 
> 
> Something like this -
> View attachment 176868


Very cool looking stones. How much do they go for?


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## Wabisabi-Ken

Karasu club is growing. I'm stoked on the consistently great performance yet wide variety from these stones. From top being razor honing fineness and hardness to bottom being soft enough to produce enough mud for easy polishing. Each stone is definitely different and have merits of their own. All of them are fast and great for a refined edge on a knife, easily hair splitting sharpness yet bitey enough to go through tomato skin..except maybe the top one, it's probably a bit too hard and fine, I haven't tried it for a knife yet actually. May give it a go just to see what it's like. If people would be interested in a more in depth look at all of them then maybe I could do a bit of a write up.


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## deltaplex

Wabisabi-Ken said:


> Karasu club is growing. I'm stoked on the consistently great performance yet wide variety from these stones. From top being razor honing fineness and hardness to bottom being soft enough to produce enough mud for easy polishing. Each stone is definitely different and have merits of their own. All of them are fast and great for a refined edge on a knife, easily hair splitting sharpness yet bitey enough to go through tomato skin..except maybe the top one, it's probably a bit too hard and fine, I haven't tried it for a knife yet actually. May give it a go just to see what it's like. If people would be interested in a more in depth look at all of them then maybe I could do a bit of a write up. View attachment 203015



I'm definitely interested in a writeup.


----------



## ew_ut

Me too!


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## ethompson

Finally moved the last stragglers from my "yard sales" and figured I'd share a collection update. Not the biggest or most impressive in these parts, but I've yet to encounter a polishing or edge* problem that this lineup can't handle. I used to obsessively check here and elsewhere for new stone listings and always coveted the next new stone, but I think it's been a month now since I even check yahoo.jp, so guess I've acquired all I need (famous last words).





Natsuya - Sun Tiger brand, very hard and great at burnishing
Aizu - classic Aizu, huge too
Otawayama? iromono - the softest stone I've ever used
Maruo Kuro Renge - my workhorse suita, had to re-glue the corner after I dropped it once, but still works the same
PA stone from @musicman980 - best mirror I've ever seen off a stone
Ohira uchigumori - silly soft and excellent for honyaki
Ohira uchigumori - double sided hato / jito stone also from @musicman980
Ohira uchigumori
Ohira uchigumori
Ohira uchigumori - just absurdly hard, great for revealing fine details; also my first natural stone
Ohira Ao Renge
Ohira renge sunashi suita
Nakayama Suita Maruka - the bees knees
Nakayama Asagi - not as hard as you probably think, excellent for very, very high refinement polishes and uraoshi
Nakayama Iromono
*notable omission is a yet to be received coti / BBW for edge work sourced through @cotedupy


----------



## cotedupy

ethompson said:


> Finally moved the last stragglers from my "yard sales" and figured I'd share a collection update. Not the biggest or most impressive in these parts, but I've yet to encounter a polishing or edge* problem that this lineup can't handle. I used to obsessively check here and elsewhere for new stone listings and always coveted the next new stone, but I think it's been a month now since I even check yahoo.jp, so guess I've acquired all I need (famous last words).
> View attachment 205318
> 
> 
> Natsuya - Sun Tiger brand, very hard and great at burnishing
> Aizu - classic Aizu, huge too
> Otawayama? iromono - the softest stone I've ever used
> Maruo Kuro Renge - my workhorse suita, had to re-glue the corner after I dropped it once, but still works the same
> PA stone from @musicman980 - best mirror I've ever seen off a stone
> Ohira uchigumori - silly soft and excellent for honyaki
> Ohira uchigumori - double sided hato / jito stone also from @musicman980
> Ohira uchigumori
> Ohira uchigumori
> Ohira uchigumori - just absurdly hard, great for revealing fine details; also my first natural stone
> Ohira Ao Renge
> Ohira renge sunashi suita
> Nakayama Suita Maruka - the bees knees
> Nakayama Asagi - not as hard as you probably think, excellent for very, very high refinement polishes and uraoshi
> Nakayama Iromono
> *notable omission is a yet to be received coti / BBW for edge work sourced through @cotedupy




Obviously I immediately slightly regretted offering you that utterly stunning coti, but seeing this post makes me feel very much happier about it. I'm glad I could find something worthy of such elevated, and meticulously curated company!


----------



## ethompson

I have an unabashed obsession with uchigumori. These are very thin and also domed, but I couldn’t pass them up.


----------



## TRPV4

Managed to take some time off and fly to Japan recently. Just a few pretty ones I saw


----------



## DHunter86

Legion74 said:


> Can anyone give me any info on this stone I found in the wild? For $330AU it was a bit pricey to buy without asking a few experts first.
> 
> View attachment 202684


The tag translates the kanji perfectly. How's the finish and sharpening feel? 

Other than the stamps and description, I'd say give it a go and see if it fits your use. Price could be a steal if it performs well.


----------



## Froztitanz

Suitas Galore


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## Choppin

Gotta love hard, metal eating stones… nakayama shiro suita wide koppa


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

Been getting more into razor honing lately, recently got this unknown stone which I'm quite fond of so cleaned the saw marks off it, then decided I'd try polish the sides.. what an idiot, now I gotta do the rest! On a Lv5 hardness it's gonna take a while haha


----------



## sunn

My new Maruoyama Shirosuita. I laquered the sides. Makes nice kasumi on my shiro kamo. The edge on that Aogami Kamo is crazy good from that stone.


----------



## ethompson

Move over Aizu, we have a new biggest daddy in the house. I don’t know how heavy it is because my 4kg scale can’t handle it


----------



## Krxxtc._.9

Hassanbensober said:


> Hoping the forum friends can tell me more about these stones.
> I know this stone by the name Boushouto (spelling could certainly be wrong) I first tried one on loan from another member who lives in my area. I really liked his and finally was able to source one of my own.
> It is deep purple in color and takes a black iridescent shine when wet. Pretty hard stone so too much pressure will scratch. Light slurry and light pressure and the stone polishes very well. Definitely in my top 5 currently.
> Wondering if anyone knows where they come from? Maybe it’s something altogether different from what I think it is?
> Thanks


If its a bushu stone its from Tsushima.


----------



## sunn

I thought bushu are from Saitama...


----------



## Krxxtc._.9

sunn said:


> I thought bushu are from Saitama...


Yes you are right!
Its a stone i get confused with because they are almost the same.


----------



## EricEricEric

Hakka
Aka pin


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

EricEricEric said:


> Hakka
> Aka pin
> 
> View attachment 215712
> View attachment 215713
> View attachment 215714


Damn that is gorgeous, got me some more red stones recently, I'll post up soon!


----------



## ch_br

My latest addition

Ohira Karasu


----------



## Rideon66

A few of mine


----------



## BillHanna

a few


----------



## Rideon66

BillHanna said:


> a few


I know they breed like rabbits. Started with straight razors and been collecting for years. I have some more Jnats plus a whole European collection too.


----------



## Rideon66

Here is a cool Suminagashi looking one


----------



## Rideon66

This is a nice Suita from Alex Gilmore within older Anryu Bunka


----------



## Rideon66

A really nice Okudo Suita with some renge. It is really fine and fast.


----------



## simona

Rideon66 said:


> This is a nice Suita from Alex Gilmore within older Anryu Bunka
> View attachment 215768


How is the knife? Does it have kanji in the other side too? Thanks


----------



## Rideon66

simona said:


> How is the knife? Does it have kanji in the other side too? Thanks


The Anryu Bunka was my first Japanese knife some years ago I also got the petty knife. Excellent knife no kanji on the other side.


----------



## simona

Rideon66 said:


> The Anryu Bunka was my first Japanese knife some years ago I also got the petty knife. Excellent knife no kanji on the other side.


Thanks. I got hold of a petty, not damascus, and it is a great little knife.


----------



## EricEricEric

Was sold a trash natsuya before, now trying this superior natsuya really changes my mind about natsuya


----------



## daveb

Put a mask on the old one and get rid of it!


----------



## ethompson

EricEricEric said:


> View attachment 216557
> View attachment 216558
> View attachment 216559
> 
> 
> Was sold a trash natsuya before, now trying this superior natsuya really changes my mind about natsuya


The old mined ones are completely different than the new stuff. Playing with a diamond plate slurry on it vs under dripping water with light pressure to burnish is worthwhile. Glad you’re enjoying it!


----------



## Rangen

I picked up one of @ethompson's Natsuya stones as well; now I just have to find the time to put it to use.

I can't imagine why I needed a second Natsuya, I already have one that has an important role in my life:


----------



## gentiscid

Rangen said:


> I picked up one of @ethompson's Natsuya stones as well; now I just have to find the time to put it to use.
> 
> I can't imagine why I needed a second Natsuya, I already have one that has an important role in my life:
> View attachment 216660


I have a 2.3 kg stone in case you want to back your stone up


----------



## Froztitanz




----------



## ethompson

Froztitanz said:


> View attachment 216786


Hi, please stop posting photos of the hand sawn ohira suita it makes me feel inferior and keeps me up at night. Thanks in advance!


----------



## simona

Froztitanz said:


> View attachment 216781
> View attachment 216782
> View attachment 216783
> View attachment 216784
> View attachment 216785
> View attachment 216786


Porn.


----------



## EricEricEric

Happy New Stone = Happy New Year






I’ll read you a story


----------



## Froztitanz

ethompson said:


> Hi, please stop posting photos of the hand sawn ohira suita it makes me feel inferior and keeps me up at night. Thanks in advance!





simona said:


> Porn.


Thanks, mate. These were NOT easy to find.


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

Really enjoying these stones from umajiyama. The fellow I bought two from in Kyoto said they were quite rare. The bigger one is quite difficult to get a nice photo of, in person the marooney purple is more prominent than the light brown. These stones are really nice to work with, quite soft for their fineness and cuts quite fast with no need for DMT slurry. The big one is the softest and will raise mud on its own yet doesn't leave any scratches on the cladding. The smaller two are even finer but harder yet still easy to use and leave a nice contrasty yet shiny finish.


----------



## Martyn

New stone day - nice chunk of Koma with tomo nagura.


----------



## Heckel7302

Nice mail day today. Most are returning home, but they brought some new friends along.


----------



## Wabisabi-Ken

New kid on the block. This is a pretty interesting stone. Feels super soft with a worn out atoma. But when testing with kiridashi feels reasonably hard. Does not release mud and cuts very fast.


----------

