# Would there be interest?



## JBroida

So, here is my question for you guys...

Would there be interest in the following:

a set of 2 stones (medium and fine grit)... 

super fast cutting
works fast on literally EVERY steel i have tried (even the most wear resistant steels)
truly splash and go (does not need or benefit from soaking at all)
the medium grit stone is fast enough to act as a coarse stone (its faster than many 500 grit stones i've tried)
they dont need flattening
they are normal sized
the fine stone leaves what i consider to be an almost perfect balance of tooth to refinement
they work well on single and double bevels, but do not leave a nice kasumi finish, more of just a very even finish

but the set cost you right around $300 (maybe $310)

What do you guys think?

Feel free to leave your comments and thoughts below.


----------



## GlassEye

Does not need flattening? Are these diamond plates?

Interested in hearing more.


----------



## heirkb

They really don't need any flattening ever? I'd probably consider buying it if that were the case.


----------



## JBroida

They are diamond, but not traditional diamond plates... anyways, the max that they can not be flat is more flat than many peoples sharpening stones except those that flatten very often. Really, the most they need is a touchup from a special nagura from time to time.

I've had similar stones (but not exactly this one) that i havent flattened in 2.5-3 years and is still flat after very significant use. This new thing i've been testing is a bit different than previous ones i've used though.


----------



## Zwiefel

Hmmm....how would they wear compared to typical synthetic stones?


----------



## berko

sounds very interesting to me, but 300$ is some hard stuff.


----------



## ChuckTheButcher

I'm interested. What kind of diamond? I don't mind paying that much if they are worth it.


----------



## berko

anyways, my shapton pro broke into 2 pieces today... its not like i do need to replace it... but i would like to


----------



## JohnnyChance

Sounds like a set I would keep at work. I would be interested.


----------



## chuck239

Can I try them before voting? haha :scared2:

But yes, I'd be interested because I still kind of want the coarse stone but this sounds like it may be a better option...

-Chuck


----------



## JBroida

yes, you can try them anytime you want. They are the 2 main stones in my rotation right now.

On how they wear... the answer is very slowly. I've had one similar to the current ones i have that have lasted through 3 years of my serious abuse and sharpening and still have about a year left in them. These ones seem to wear a tiny bit faster, but still, for most anyone that is not sharpening professionally, i cant imagine you will run through one anytime soon.

On really coarse work, i still use my wheel (the one i have on now is about 150 grit), but then i follow the 150 grit up with this medium grit and it works great to remove the scratches quickly.


----------



## mpukas

Sounds intriguing, but without seeing it in action it's easy to make up ideas about what it may or may not be. hint hint 

If it's diamond, wears slowly and doesn't need flattening, is it something similar to what we know as a standard diamond plate with a cutting matrix bonded to metal surface, or is it more like a traditional water stone but with diamond cutting matrix mixed with a binder to create a solid mass? 

Can you compare the course and fine grits to other stones so we can get an idea of what stones they might replace? 

Sounds spendy, but if they can be a two-stone solution and last significantly longer than a typical water stone, then there's a lot of value in that.


----------



## JBroida

They are more on the side of traditional stones (but slightly different)... not diamonds plated on a surface. They dont need to be flattened because they wear super slow.

The grits i'm thinking about are 1000 and 6000 for the time being. there are other options i may consider, but these seem to work well together and the 1k is fast enough to get the job done when i need it to.


----------



## JBroida

also, just to mention it so you guys have an idea of how much i've thought this through... i've spent a few thousand dollars on this stone type over the last two years testing various types. There are some that i continue to use in my personal lineup that i think are some of the most amazing stones i've ever used (and i'm continuing to test new ones all of the time). However, many of the stones i have right now would easily run $400+ for a single stone (i have quite a few synthetics that ran me over $600). The reason i asked about this set is that i potentially have an opportunity to provide very good stones of this type at an amazing price compared to what i normally get.

Also, for those thinking about the flattening part, the absolute maximum worst possible unflat situation these stones would see would be 1mm of difference from the highest spot to the lowest... and that would take you well over a year of every day use to get that way. Even in 3 years, mine arent that way. It would have to be through gross misuse.


----------



## Gravy Power

For a professional that sharpens multiple knives, at least weekly, this seems like a dream stone. For someone on a budget and never spent more that $130 on a set of stones, there is a defenite leap of faith needed by the buyer.


----------



## zitangy

JBroida said:


> They are more on the side of traditional stones (but slightly different)... not diamonds plated on a surface. They dont need to be flattened because they wear super slow.
> 
> The grits i'm thinking about are 1000 and 6000 for the time being. there are other options i may consider, but these seem to work well together and the 1k is fast enough to get the job done when i need it to.



INteresting choice of grits .... I purchased the Naniwa Diamond series 1,000 and 6,000 grit just for the single bevel knives as no levelling required. Just some clean up which I use a broken fine stone.

This removes the hernia of levelling exercise and saves time . But there is very little feedback from the plate . It gets the job done fast. I wld recommend such a plate of 1,000 grit for the Hollow side of the knife (ura) and as for teh curved side.. i am not too particular as my regular slightly concave stones can do.. unless I need precision and full control say it is a new knife.


It is really thin.. like a plate and mounted on aluminium backing

rgds
d


----------



## JBroida

yeah... these have significantly better than the naniwa. In fact, i gave up on diamond stones after the naniwa... it took me until a craftsman in japan had me try the one he uses before i decided to give this type of stone another shot.

These two particular stones are not the best in terms of feedback compared to some that i use, but they arent bad either.

*as a side note, for some reason, all of the manufacturers that i've seen make very similar looking stones... kind of frustrating... its forced me to mark stones on the sides so that i can keep track of what is what


----------



## mkriggen

Sounds very interesting to me, but what am I going to do with that diamond flattening plate I just bought from you? :slaphead:


----------



## pitonboy

Sounds like a great idea to me, Jon


----------



## pleue

Sound like a dream setup for house stones, though I prefer a little extra width than the standard stone size.


----------



## scotchef38

Depends if the shipping would be prohibative.


----------



## phan1

Sounds awsome, but I personally would prefer to buy them a la carte rather than having to buy them together... For me, would really love to have the lower grit stone, but will likely have little use for the higher grit one. I like your Aoto too much.


----------



## mpukas

Now that you've described it more, I remember you showing me one a while back, and telling a bit about it and how expensive it was... 

Since I recently purchased my new Gesshin stone line-up, it's kinda hard to think about spending another $300+ on stones that would be redundant in some ways. That's almost another knife... well maybe half-way to another knife... Not to say that I'm not interested - I love the new things you come out with, and if you're serious about bringing these to market, then they've got to be good. 

Just thinking out loud, I can see these being very useful for people who work in a pro environment and have to bring their kit with them. I've often said that the Shapton GS are a good consideration for someone in this situation because they are splash-n-go, cut really quickly, don't need to be dried, and are thin and light therefore easy to carry. But they have down sides - the aesthetic finish isn't great, they are very hard, and not consistent from grit to grit where some of them glaze over. The only down side I see to your new diamond stones for this situation is they may be heavy. Since they wear so slowly, maybe make a thinner version for traveling? 

btw - when these do need flattening, how do you do it? With another diamond plate, or will these eat through it?


----------



## Notaskinnychef

Sounds really cool, but WELL beyond my means. Hell, I haven't even spent that much on a knife lol. Still seems like an amazing stone


----------



## Rottman

I'm interested but I would have more use for an even coarser one instead of the fine one.


----------



## Chefdog

Sounds intriguing. I really liked the edge I got from an extra-extra fine DMT plate, but not the deep scratching and rough looking finish. I would probably give these a shot based on Jon's enthusiasm and endorsement. 

Does the diamond leave relatively more bite than a regular synthetic of the same grit? 6K is beyond where I usually like to go, any chance of something slightly coarser, say 4K? Or does this stone leave an edge that still feels nicely aggressive?


----------



## 77kath

I take it that this is not my beginner's setup? Or any beginner?


----------



## Matus

Jon, since I have JUST got a 3 stone Gesshin setup I would not be able to order too soon for financial reasons, but YES - I would be very interested in a 2 stone (it could even be a combination stone - my actual preference) setup that would alow me to put a good edge on whatever dull knife I would get my hands on - so the medium grit should be "rough enough" so to speak. The main use for this stone combo would be sharpening knives of family mebers or friends when I am visiting them - so that I could keep my (mostly soaking) stones at home.

I would be VERY interested on a pass-around and would gladly pay for the shipping to Europe to test such a stone setup.


----------



## DSChief

I'm guessing that these are not currently listed on the web site, so maybe you could post a short video hi-lighting the attributes of said stones. Also if these are to be a limited production run,
how about an option for a Jumbo pair along the lines of the EX LG. 1K gesshin but with a much tougher matrix


----------



## Chefdog

Sorry if I missed it, but do they cut at the same rate throughout their life and just get smaller like a regular synthetic stone? Or do they start to cut more slowly as they wear like a DMT plate?

Would one of the special naguras come with the stones?

Thank you.


----------



## JBroida

Sadly, an XL option is not possible with these stones. Many have asked about very coarse stones... i'm currently testing coarse stones similar to this. Sadly, they are much more expensive.

Making a video might be possible... just have to find time, which i dont seem to have a lot of now days.

As far as cutting speed through their lives, they are pretty consistent... they are a tiny bit faster the first 2-3 uses, but then they settle into their normal rate and stay that way throughout the life of the stone.

The naguras will be included with these if we decide to go ahead with this.

At this point, it seems like there is significant interest. Maybe i can make a quick video or something to help people get a better sense of what they are like and then we can set up a small first run (maybe 5-10 sets) and see how they go. How does that sound to you guys?


----------



## Sack of lemons

I am very interested in these stones so please let me know when they become available because I don't want to miss out on the limited run. Thanks,

Laurie


----------



## JBroida

if the run goes well, i am strongly considering permanently adding these to our lineup, so no worries there.


----------



## JBroida

question of opinion for some of you that have expressed interest... Would there be 5 people interested in a test run (not prototypes, but just to gauge interest) of these before i make a video or anything like that? I was thinking that better than me making a video, if we can have other peoples opinions on these aside from my obviously biased views, it might be more helpful. What do you guys think? Would you rather the videos or would you rather the forum testers?

Do we have 5 people for this maybe?


----------



## JBroida

also, for those interested, here is a similar stone that i bought almost 3 years ago and have used A LOT since then. I have never flattened this stone... not once. I've used a nagura on it a bit though. This is how much it dished after all of this:







Even at the most dished point, its less than 1mm of height difference from the highest point... and after YEARS of use.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

JBroida said:


> question of opinion for some of you that have expressed interest... Would there be 5 people interested in a test run (not prototypes, but just to gauge interest) of these before i make a video or anything like that? I was thinking that better than me making a video, if we can have other peoples opinions on these aside from my obviously biased views, it might be more helpful. What do you guys think? Would you rather the videos or would you rather the forum testers?
> 
> Do we have 5 people for this maybe?



Jon,

I'll volunteer my meager talents.

Rick


----------



## Miles

Okay, I'm intrigued. Especially if it's fairly lightweight, it would be something I could easily keep in my kit.


----------



## tripleq

I'd have to give them try first.


----------



## don

I'm down for the test run.


----------



## Zwiefel

I'm intrigued, but I'm sure there are more worthy people for a test run.


----------



## echerub

I'm up for it. I'm definitely curious to see how these guys feel and perform.


----------



## tk59

I'd like to use one. I'd probably buy one too.


----------



## mhlee

I'm not worthy of the test run, but I'm definitely interested in these stones.


----------



## Miles

I'd be interested in giving them a test run. I have enough personal, colleagues', and house knives available to where I feel like I'd be able to give them a pretty decent test.


----------



## Ruso

Interesting stones, I would be glad to try, but the cost is prohibitive for my budget. It's basically comes down to $150 per stone + shipping + tax. 
But that's really cool that you put all this work in to bringing new and possible very awesome products to the western market!!


----------



## Matus

Jon I would indeed love to try these stones, but I guess there are many far more experienced users who will give you much better feedback. Sill - I would not say no if you would insist


----------



## Paco.McGraw

Count me in, I'll take a set.

-Sam


----------



## JBroida

so, i just had another idea... i know a bunch of KKF members are coming here tomorrow to hang out. I'm going to ask them to try these stones out and see what they think. If the results are positive, i will move ahead with the first run of 5-10 sets of them. If those go over well, we will likely add them to our store on a more permanent basis. Sound good to you guys?


----------



## Pensacola Tiger

Sounds like a good idea, Jon. Any chance of taking some video of them using the stones that you could then share?


----------



## JBroida

lets see how they feel about it, but its possible on our side


----------



## harlock0083

I'd have to sell off my current stone set to afford this combo though!


----------



## Chefdog

Jon,
Could you give us an idea of how these compare to your 600/6K? Just a brief idea of what one could expect. Hard/soft, feel, relative cutting speed, lifespan etc.
I'm sure I'm not the only one excited about them, but wondering if they're worth double the $, and if I'll actually be able to make the most of the advantages to make it worth the spend. 
Thank you.


----------



## JBroida

these are harder than the splash and go gesshin stones. Also faster cutting on both counts. The 6k gesshin leaves a bit nicer mirror finish on edges than the diamond. Life-span-wise these are too new for me to tell yet. I went through about 1 6k per year and am already more than 1/2 way through a 600, but i've had a similar diamond stone last me 3 years with more use than either of the gesshins. I would expect these to be around the same with regard to that.


----------



## Matus

So purely on $/sharpening these diamond stones would actually cost less in the long run. Am I getting it right Jon?


----------



## JBroida

So far, that has been my experience... Either less in the long run, or about the same for some stones. But I've also seen people abuse things like this and just get a year or two out of one, which sucks.


----------



## JBroida

here are some test videos from a few hours ago...

*i had a few people ask me about the stone holder... its not one that i normally sell and doesnt come with the stone, but i picked it up because the lips are lower and i wear my stones super thin very often.

[video=youtube;E3IQTO29r_s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=E3IQTO29r_s[/video]

[video=youtube;RzxNyi2L7kA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RzxNyi2L7kA[/video]

[video=youtube;LTT4v1Vtpz0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LTT4v1Vtpz0[/video]


----------



## bkdc

Is this some sort of stone of diamond embedded in ceramic? I'm totally interested.


----------



## Amused

Definitely interested, but will you ever offer these individually or are they only ever going to be in sets?

The stone holder does look cool...too bad you don't stock them.


----------



## K-Fed

The 1000 grit vid sounds a bit gritty. Grit contamination possibly?


----------



## JBroida

its not ceramic per se, but a similar construction. There are many types similar to these, but these are not quite the same as others i've tried. For the first run, i think i will only do them as sets, but depending on how things go, i may be able to do them individually. There are savings involved in the sets, so individually, i think they would be closer to the $180 mark each.

On the stone holder, i actually do stock them. I was wearing my stones a bit thin, and usually i would mount them on something (which is the technically correct thing to do), but i got lazy. The lip on our stone holder with base is a bit too high for some of my worn down stones, so i looked around for a stone holder that would deal well with these worn down stones. I found the one i'm using in the video a few weeks back, and brought in some for myself and some to stock at the store. I think they are going to run $35 if you guys are interested.

On the sound of the 1k, it does sound gritty... i also happened to be closer to it when shooting the videos, so the sound comes through even more. That being said, its an aggressive stone and that is mostly what it sounds like. I didnt set up a nice mic today or anything so the audio is all in-camera audio. I can set up a nicer audio setup next time i shoot videos though if you are interested.


----------



## bkdc

I'd be willing to pay a high price for a 400 grit stone that doesn't dish quickly. My diamond plates lose their 'bite' quickly when I'm thinning or reprofiling a lot.


----------



## mpukas

bkdc said:


> I'd be willing to pay a high price for a 400 grit stone that doesn't dish quickly...



+1 - I agree with this.


----------



## JBroida

i too am willing to pay a high price for stones like that... thats why i just ordered some ~$600 stones for myself to test out in that lower grit range... i'll keep you guys posted. I have an 800 grit diamond stone that works like a regular stone... needs to be soaked, has great feedback, cuts crazy fast, etc. Its significantly faster than my gesshin 400 for example. Here are the problems i ran into (and i should say i really love this stone and use it all of the time).

1. Its crazy expensive. It was originally going to be $600 each, but i was able to get the price down to $400 each by offering to mount the plates myself. They are each about 3mm thick. However, i havent had time to mount them. I was considering selling them as is, and letting people mount their own, for a bit of a savings. Thoughts?
2. Its stupid fast (i use it to get rid of high and low spots on wide bevels really quick and get rid of 150grit stone scratches). But, it doesnt work well on soft stainless cladding... its too aggressive and rips out chunks of the soft metal cladding. On solid stainless knives its great, as well as all kinds of carbon knives, and if you arent touching the cladding of the soft stainless clad knives, its awesome too. But when it touches soft cladding, pieces of steel go missing.
3. It isnt as dish resistant as the stones i'm talking about in this thread. It still is very dish resistant, but it dishes faster than the type of stones i'm considering here. I also havent found an effective way of flattening this stone... it destroys everything i try to flatten it with. Still working that part though.

In the last 2 years, the aforementioned diamond stone has gotten more use than any other stone i have in my lineup, by a pretty significant degree, so i think it held up quite well. But you will need to manage flatness more than the set being discussed here. Any interest in these ones here? I've got 5 in stock all unmounted as of now.


----------



## heirkb

So with these 1k and 6k stones, is the entire thing usable or a small layer on the surface? I ask, because they look about as thick as an average stone. Also, mind elaborating a bit on what to avoid that could potentially ruin such stones? I'd be pretty interested in these if they could be at least close to a lifetime investment (since I don't sharpen nearly as much as you do).


----------



## JBroida

about 1.5-2mm of the surface mounted on an aluminum base

I think people could get many years out of one of them... at least double what some of my other stones last.

As far as "donts" go, i would say dont try to flatten with a diamond plate, dont try tip repairs (ie. grinding in from the spine) on the surface of these, and i think thats about it that i can think of off the top of my head. If other things come to mind, i'll post them here.

I'm hoping that some of the guys who had a chance to try them will chime in with their opinions...


----------



## tk59

K-Fed said:


> The 1000 grit vid sounds a bit gritty. Grit contamination possibly?


The 1k does sound a bit noisy during use. Part of it is Jon sets his stones up on an incline and I noticed water runs off of this guy pretty quickly. It isn't quite as noisy when it's good n wet. You're also hearing some metal bits. It's pretty aggressive and I felt I got metal bits from the burr coming off quicker than I expected. I also felt feedback was very good. That goes for both stones. It was easy to find the sharpening angle based on the tone change. 
As much as I liked the 1k (and it certainly is the more useful stone, imo), I was particularly impressed with the 6k. In combination with the 1k, the edge comes off super aggressive with that special keenness that I only seem to achieve with hard stones. However, it doesn't have the same slippery feel that I've gotten with similar-looking plates from other manufacturers. It really is stone-like in feel. I really enjoyed them quite a bit. On the vid, you can hear the burr come off almost immediately, resulting in that grainy sound. Once the surface is wiped, the grainy sound is gone. If these guys wear anything like other diamond plates of similar build, I can't imagine anyone but a pro sharpener ever using one of these guys up. Another bonus is a couple minutes on the Gesshin syn Aoto and you get a nice kasumi finish on large beveled knives.


----------



## tk59

JBroida said:


> ...dont try to flatten with a diamond plate...


Oh yeah. I tried flattening a diamond plate last year that came to me REALLY not flat. My Atoma became a shadow of what it once was.


----------



## JBroida

*deleted

decided to start a new thread


----------



## rick alen

The diamond certainly sounds worth the money, if they do hold up better than other diamond stones. CBN, cubic boron nitride that is, has become a very popular knife sharpening medium as applied to stops, said to be even faster than diamond in knife sharpening use, and does not create deep scratches as diamond is known to. What are the possibilities of making stones in this medium? BTW, I have designed and will soon build a sharpening jig that is like a Wicked Edge on steroids, able to do very acute angles and hold a consistent angle along the entire knife edge. Medium that can be used dry really makes it with this type of setup.

Rick


----------



## JBroida

i'm not sure i could convince our stone makers to go for it, but we'll see...


----------



## Mr.Wizard

JBroida said:


> i'm not sure i could convince our stone makers to go for it, but we'll see...



Did anything come from this?


----------



## JBroida

Mr.Wizard said:


> Did anything come from this?



yeah... and we're about to do another run of them around the end of this week


----------



## toddnmd

JBroida said:


> yeah... and we're about to do another run of them around the end of this week



I think the follow up question was referring to cubic boron nitride stones rather than diamond.


----------



## rick alen

Yes, and it's interesting that Jon's reply to me had stood unaccompanied for over a year.

I never got around to building my highly flexible precision sharpener, though it was already fully designed. Just too much other stuff going on, as much as I'd like to fool around with this stuff.

Funny also this should come up because just today I was talking to someone who supplies many of those using and selling lapping slurries and compounds for knife and tool sharpening. He told me that his customers here only order diamond from him. I don't know what to make of that as many have said CBN is faster/better than diamond here. Are they simply going elsewhere for their CBN, or what?

BTW, I thought the $300 price tag not only very reasonable, but awesome considering how much better these stones seemed to conventional diamond plates. I personally just don't have any great need of them right at the moment.


Rick


----------



## JBroida

no clue on the compounds... i dont really use them much. Sorry.


----------

