# coarse stone



## nianton (Jul 10, 2016)

What are your thoughts on coarse stones? I have a 400 grit stone from JKI. It gets the job done and greatfull to have it but it wears out so quickly. It's now half the thickness it was when new and I've only had it for maybe 4 months. Also its supper muddy, I don't think I like excessively muddy stones. So I'm looking for any ones thoughts on decent coarse stones before I make another purchase.


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## daveb (Jul 10, 2016)

I like the G400 a lot. Surprised it's wearing so quickly, mine is muddy but not remarkably so. Did have to replace it once due to wear.

I have a slight preference for the JNS 300. It's S&G, one reason I like it, and it shows almost no discernable wear after more than a year. Not muddy, little feedback, not necessarily pleasant. Fast.

Don't like the Bestor 500 t'all.


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## Benuser (Jul 10, 2016)

I like the Naniwa Professional 400 a lot. It wears less than the Chosera. I should add I'm a little biased because they are much more affordable in Europe.


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## turbochef422 (Jul 10, 2016)

I'm a big fan of the JNS 320. Splash and go doesn't cut super quick but quick enough and doesn't wear quick either and has the feel of a much higher grit while sharpening. Definitely one of my go to stones.


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## foody518 (Jul 10, 2016)

I got a Naniwa Pro 400 for $56 USD a few months ago from Knifewear while buying something else (free shipping!) and didn't get hit with customs duties. Looks like today's price is around $60 USD due to currency conversions. It cuts pretty fast and the wear rate is quite slow - the surface feels very firm and unyielding though with decent feedback. If using the stone for some moderate thinning, you'll want to periodically wash off the swarf IMO, feels like it ends up impeding the cutting rate of the stone. 
Not sure which knives you're sharpening but I guess I should add I'm mainly using the stone for carbon steel knives (mine), and I don't have much experience on how it sharpens stainless (I use my Beston 500 as a coarse stone on stainless knives mainly for others' knives) though I'm confident the cutting rate is just fine for stainless.


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## andur (Jul 11, 2016)

Shapton glass 500 or Shapton pro. I've not tried the pro 500 but even the 1k is very good and fast. I really really like my Shapton glass 500. I feel it cuts quicker than my Shapton glass 320 and feels nicer. Somehow the 320 clogs but the 500 doesn't. The unicorn is the Shapton glass 500 in double thickness - a workhorse of a stone! Hard to come by. I didn't like the Naniwa 400 myself since I found that it dished far too quickly.


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## WingKKF (Jul 11, 2016)

Wow seriously? Half the stone in 4 months? Are you a pro knife sharpener? What are you doing on the stone and how many knives are you sharpening every day? I can't imagine using up a stone that quick unless you are doing other people's knives or are abusing the stone somehow. If you are doing a lot of thinning, you might want to consider going with an even lower grit or something like a JKI diamond stone or a belt sander. Once a knife is thinned, it should not take that much of a 400 grit to get a burr going unless the knife is getting abused and damaged. Other possibilities could be the knives have no edge retention whatsoever or the burr is so difficult to remove, it becomes "dull" quickly.


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## Mucho Bocho (Jul 11, 2016)

andur said:


> Shapton glass 500 or Shapton pro. I've not tried the pro 500 but even the 1k is very good and fast. I really really like my Shapton glass 500. I feel it cuts quicker than my Shapton glass 320 and feels nicer. Somehow the 320 clogs but the 500 doesn't. The unicorn is the Shapton glass 500 in double thickness - a workhorse of a stone! Hard to come by. I didn't like the Naniwa 400 myself since I found that it dished far too quickly.



This has been my experience Shapton 500 and 320 as well. Got my 500 in x thick too. I just picked up a King 300 Deluxe. S&G, hard flat and fast. Me likely


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## nianton (Jul 11, 2016)

WingKKF, I do sharpen everybodys knives at my work(around 10 cooks), and its sad to say most their knives are in horrible condition. This was the only reason I got the coarse stone. I dont use the coarse stone to much now that I have done almost everyones knives. 
Still I feel the mud was so excessive that it was counter productive to sharpening. Maybe i should use less pressure? Though i feel my hands are lite... idk
Andur and Mucho Bocho, i have been leaning towrd the shaptons. I have read some good things about them. I'll probablly end up going that route


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## mikedtran (Jul 11, 2016)

I love my JNS 300, it actually has a nicer feel than the JNS 1000. Also the stone doesn't dish and doesn't clog at all. 

I'm curious if there are any recommendations for stones more coarse and faster cutting than #300?


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## ThEoRy (Jul 11, 2016)

Took me 3 years to run my gesshin 400 down to unusable thickness. In other news my Beston 500 is still a beast. Have a look at one of those.


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## nianton (Jul 11, 2016)

I forgot about JNS, will definitely take that into consideration. 
ThEoRy how long have you had the Beston 500 for? Is it muddy like the gesshin 400?


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## Ruso (Jul 11, 2016)

I like shapton pro 320. Fairlly fast, does not dish much, SnG, feedback is not the best. Im really intrigued about JNS 300 now, gotta add it to my next JNS purchase.


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## ThEoRy (Jul 11, 2016)

nianton said:


> I forgot about JNS, will definitely take that into consideration.
> ThEoRy how long have you had the Beston 500 for? Is it muddy like the gesshin 400?



Longer than the Gesshin 400 but I used the Gesshin much more frequently. It's not as muddy as the Gesshin, doesn't cut as fast, wears more slowly and in my opinion needs to be permasoaked for optimal performance. Though I permasoaked both stones anyway.


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## heldentenor (Jul 11, 2016)

The Beston 500 needs permasoaking and regular flattening/resurfacing if you want it to feel like anything other than dragging your knife down a sidewalk. It gives good results, but the feedback is painful compared to the Gesshin line.


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## nianton (Jul 11, 2016)

Alright, I think I'm going to go with the shapton pro. As far as shapton glass stones, do you have to use the super exspensive plate from shapton to flatten these stones? I have Atoma plate in various grits.


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## Doug (Jul 11, 2016)

nianton said:


> Alright, I think I'm going to go with the shapton pro. As far as shapton glass stones, do you have to use the super exspensive plate from shapton to flatten these stones? I have Atoma plate in various grits.



I use an Atoma 140 on my pro 320. It works fine


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## nianton (Jul 11, 2016)

what about the glass stones?


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## fimbulvetr (Jul 11, 2016)

I use an Atoma 140 on my glass 1000. Works fine there too.


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## nianton (Jul 11, 2016)

could anyone that has used both shapton glass and pro give me a quick compare and contrast when it comes to the coarse stones?


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## Ruso (Jul 11, 2016)

Doug said:


> I use an Atoma 140 on my pro 320. It works fine



I second that.


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## psfred (Jul 11, 2016)

Another vote here for the King Deluxe 300. This is a fairly inexpensive stone, but you have to get it from toolsfromjapan.com so far as I know, it's not available otherwise. Very hard, wears very slowly, and cuts like crazy. Glazes rather than wearing, so a refresh with a coarse diamond plate occasionally keeps it sharp.

Anything that doesn't sharpen quick on this stone is a candidate for my 120 grit diamond plate, which means I don't care about the quality of the edge much, I need to grind off a huge amount of steel. Belt sander candidates, in fact. 

The King leaves a nice scratch pattern that is pretty easy to remove with a Beston 700.

Peter


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## WingKKF (Jul 12, 2016)

I actually use a Shapton Glasstone 500 as the starting stone for my progression and I like it. I find sharpening a dull knife is a lot faster starting with a 500 grit. If I had to do repairs and thinning, I would go with a lower grit like a 220 pink brick. If I ever wear out the Shapton, I'd be interested in checking out the JNS 300. I use a DMT diamond plate to flatten my stones.


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## Iggy (Jul 12, 2016)

I pretty much like my Shapton Pro 220, cause it's quite everything I look for in a coarse stone... cuts extremely fast... dishes extremely low... doesn't leaves such deep scratches like a Atoma or DMT...and has more of a hard than a muddy feedback. I find that gives my a little more control over the sharpening process and were the grinding particles go.

Most of the time backed up by a 600 Chosera


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## nianton (Jul 12, 2016)

Man I always have trouble picking between stones, especially during the off season when money gets tight. I'm gonna have to take a moment to think. Either jns 300or pro 320.....


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## Steampunk (Jul 12, 2016)

nianton said:


> Man I always have trouble picking between stones, especially during the off season when money gets tight. I'm gonna have to take a moment to think. Either jns 300or pro 320.....



I have both the JNS 300 Matukusuyama (Current version, with lacquered sides.), and the Shapton Pro 320... Both have their pros and cons. 

Of the two, the Shapton has the _potential_ to be the faster cutter (Notably so.), but as soon as it hits a steel with any volume of chromium it starts to glaze over and the cutting power begins to tank BAD. To give you an idea, the Shapton 1K Pro cuts stainless faster than the 320 Pro; if you work with SS, don't get this stone... On carbon knives, though (Especially with soft carbon cladding.), it's actually a fairly effective stone for mild-moderate thinning and repair. Unlike most Shaptons it does release quite a bit of abrasive, so it's still kind of a messy stone, but at least it's splash and go and doesn't dish as quickly as some coarse stones. 

The JNS 300 is one of the oddest stones I own... The new ones are only 65mm wide, and come with cashew-lacquered sides. It is very hard (Even slightly harder than the Shapton, especially to flatten; it has a very dense sensation.), very smooth feeling for a coarse stone (You'd think it was a 1K to touch... I actually have some 1-2K stones that feel coarser than this.), and is possibly the most splash & go stone I own (Water consumption is tiny!). However, for me, the grit rating is a misnomer; this is more like a 500 grit stone than a 300. It's not a fast cutter, but in the right situation it has some advantages... The scratch pattern it leaves is very mild and consistent, it typically is a cleaner working stone than the Shapton (It only really muds up on soft carbon cladding, but when it starts to mud it will build TONS of the stuff very rapidly, and it is quite a sticky mud that tends to re-harden. This helps with speed, but precision goes out the window, so it's actually best not to let it build up too much and accept the speed reduction.), is very dish resistant unless thinning clad knives (Then it dishes more than its hardness suggests it should.), this means it can cut fairly precise bevels without mud washing up the sides of the blade (Again, unless thinning clad knives.), isn't as chromium-sensitive as the Shapton, and for the beginner to sharpening would be a very difficult coarse stone to get in trouble with. 

Neither of these stones are what I would call 'versatile' coarse stones; they each have their niche where they are happy, and will leave you swearing at them if you try to use them with the wrong thing. The Shapton loves carbon; especially carbon with few alloying elements. Shirogami #2, 10xx-Series, O1, etc, it'll rip through and keep its shape pretty well. Aogami starts to get cuspy; it'll do it, but does better if it is <62hrc. Likewise, soft stainless cladding cheats it a bit due to the low-hrc, but it still doesn't really like it. A2, SKD, SLD, or anything stainless abrade horrendously slowly on this stone due to the glazing. 

The JNS is ideally suited - for me - to mildly re-profiling pocket knives with low vanadium content (Because it doesn't really mud on edge bevels, the grit doesn't get into the joints of the knife, and also creates a fairly precise, controlled bevel.), thinning and edge repairs on blades made of moderately well treated western stainless steels <58hrc (420HC, 440-series, Sandvik 12C27, etc.), mild edge repair on moderately well treated Japanese carbon or semi/stainless steels @ 58-62 hrc that require precision and control over cutting speed, and mild thinning of stainless or carbon clad knives. In all of these situations, it suits a high-pressure sharpening technique. It really sucks when thinning monosteel knives over 58 hrc, major edge repairs on very hard or high carbide steels, and thinning applications where you need to really move some metal expediently. 

In terms of versatility, both of these stones lose out to some of the 'milder' coarse stones in my collection, like the Shapton Glass Stone 500 or Naniwa Chosera/Professional 600. In their prime, the JNS 300 and Shapton Pro 320 will out-cut those two finer stones (The Shapton in particular, the JNS only mildly.), but the GS 500 and Naniwa 600 will cut everything you put in front of them at a similar more moderated rate without complaint, which is a feat these two coarser stones cannot match. If your application for the JNS 300 or Pro 320 falls within their niches of proficiency, they will not be a waste of money, but if you expect them to monster through everything like their grit number would suggest you may be disappointed. 

Alas, I cannot give you a stone suggestion that is more ideal, as I myself am still searching for that perfect coarse stone... The Gesshin 400 is one of the best cutting coarse stones I've found, but alas, the dishing is rather extreme in exchange for its cutting power. On edge bevels, it's a little more controllable (Particularly with a gossamer touch.), but when thinning it's a little silly. I have heard that the Gesshin 400S is a little better from some aspects (Water retention, cutting speed; Jon also said it was a little more dish resistant.), but it still looks a relatively muddy stone from the video:

[video=youtube;WajM7mgrXK4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WajM7mgrXK4[/video]

My best of luck to you on your own search. 

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk


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## Matus (Jul 12, 2016)

JNS300 (I have the newer one that had red lacqeuer on outside ) wears very little and cuts fast - great for thinning or edge repair. JKI320 made also very good impression upon short use. I also have the JKI 400 and yes - it wears fast, but it cuts fast and I plan to use mine (well, the rest of it) for wide bevels.


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## JBroida (Jul 12, 2016)

what can i say... i like softer stones


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## Steampunk (Jul 12, 2016)

JBroida said:


> what can i say... i like softer stones



You also use a lot of sintered diamond stones, though... Can it be more accurately stated that you like _fast_ stones? Either way, you have the tastes of a pro sharpener... 

- Steampunk


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## JBroida (Jul 12, 2016)

actually, my favorite stone is a vitrified diamond stone and, yes, i like fast stones


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## nianton (Jul 12, 2016)

JBroida said:


> what can i say... i like softer stones



I've noticed. The one thing I do like the muddy stones for are my two wide bevel knives. The Monzento I got from you is quite muddy, sometimes I feel the stone obsorbs water quickly and the mud dries. Have you experienced this? And how do you work with it? What's a vitrified diamond stone?


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## JBroida (Jul 12, 2016)

Yeah... sometimes it takes a bit more porous natural stones some time to get rolling... i just keep splashing water on until it stops soaking in. Because i spend a decent bit of time on the stones to achieve the finishes i like, i have that time. Otherwise, i would throw it in water before starting to sharpen.

I think i posted something about the diamond stones before in my subsection, but i wont clog this thread up with that stuff. I'll likely be making a new post on them soon anyways.


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## Ruso (Jul 12, 2016)

Personally, I did not notice Shapton Pro 320 to be slow on SS. I use it quite a lot for relatives' cheap knives. I will pay extra attention next time.

-----
Waiting for Jon's post on vitrified diamond stones now!!! :hungry:


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## malexthekid (Jul 12, 2016)

Ruso said:


> Personally, I did not notice Shapton Pro 320 to be slow on SS. I use it quite a lot for relatives' cheap knives. I will pay extra attention next time.
> 
> -----
> Waiting for Jon's post on vitrified diamond stones now!!! :hungry:



Looks like im buying some new stones soon....


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## nianton (Jul 12, 2016)

Steam punk, thanks for the info. I may just hold off on purchasing another coarse stone. I don't use it as much now that I have gotten all my co-workers knives in decent condition. I suppose I to an searching for that perfect coarse stone. Again thanks for your knowledge.


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## berko (Jul 13, 2016)

awesome post sam! i do own these stones as well, but never ever could have described em that precise.


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## Nife (Jul 13, 2016)

Jon discusses his vitrified diamond stones in his JKI subsection, thread, "A different kind of diamond stone... feeler", which is currently the top thread. He mentions that it is a vitrified diamond in a post near the end of the thread.


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## Ruso (Jul 13, 2016)

Nife said:


> Jon discusses his vitrified diamond stones in his JKI subsection, thread, "A different kind of diamond stone... feeler", which is currently the top thread. He mentions that it is a vitrified diamond in a post near the end of the thread.



Thanks. :doublethumbsup:
Did not realize that was the vitrified stone.


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