# Recommended synthetic stones



## Michael Kindrachuk (Feb 20, 2020)

Hi everyone,

just curious about the opinions out there on workhorse synthetic stones. I have some chosera stones and am wondering about whether it’s worth upgrading to the professional line? I also was considering trying out some JNS stones. Any thoughts/comments/considerations are much appreciated.

Mike


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## zizirex (Feb 20, 2020)

Michael Kindrachuk said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> just curious about the opinions out there on workhorse synthetic stones. I have some chosera stones and am wondering about whether it’s worth upgrading to the professional line? I also was considering trying out some JNS stones. Any thoughts/comments/considerations are much appreciated.
> 
> Mike


if you have a Chosera stone, that's already a good stone. Naniwa pro is the same thing just thinner and without base & nagura. Shapton is a good stone, the best bang for the bucks but not widely available in Canada until recent years (Yeah, Canada is Naniwa centric).

do you have any particular things that you want or need from newer stones? like polish level, cutting speed, convenience, edge quality


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## Matus (Feb 20, 2020)

Naniwa Chosera / Pro are good stones indeed. Which ones do you have? Do you feel like something is missing or just want to try something else?


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## kayman67 (Feb 20, 2020)

It's very hard to go above Chosera in general.
But you can definitely move sideways. Just identify what you want first. What grits/behaviour would you like to replace? 
If you just feel the need to try new stuff, go wild. Plenty of nice stones out there.


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## Michael Kindrachuk (Feb 20, 2020)

Thanks for the responses. I have some older chosera stones that I got from a colleague - as I’ve kind of fallen down the rabbit hole with knives and stones I’ve never actually had to purchase my own set. Now that I have a little bit of wiggle room financially I was curious about the synthetic stones just to see whether anyone had any strong opinions one way or another. 

I have done a little sharpening but I’m still very new. I really would be fine with what I had I just couldn’t directly find too many opinions and if some were preferential to others.

My next big step is a JNAT. And I want to really practice on some of the older knives that I have before I even consider working on my first high end Japanese blade.

Regards,

Mike


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## GeneH (Feb 20, 2020)

I like the Chosera 1K and 600, enough that I gave a 1K to my son as a great S&G.

You could move over to soakers, leaving them in a small tub of water-that’s my preference because of the amount of time I spend on some sessions. 

Jon at JKI could set you up with excellent synthetic or diamond stones. 

Part of your decision should be based on what you want to do: knife types and finishes. Maybe JNATs would better suit your desires.


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## Bcos17 (Feb 20, 2020)

I've had a good experience with the King Hyper, Shapton Pro and the Cerax 1000 stones. I'm really liking the Hyper especially right now. I'm hoping to try the JNS 1000 soon.


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## Steampunk (Feb 20, 2020)

Stones interact uniquely with the steels and types of tools you are sharpening... 

The Naniwa Chosera / Pro stones ('Pro' is a slightly reformulated Chosera, supposedly to help reduce the Chosera's crazing issue, but in function perform almost identically.) are excellent as previously stated, but like all stones suit some steels more than others.

What you could potentially net from adding more synths to your collection from different brands, is the potential that some of those stones might suit your application in a more specifically ideal way. It's not a universal 'brand x is better than brand y' question, but a matter of 'I have x steel formed into x tool, and am willing to build a sharpening stone progression purely around that to enhance the sharpening of it.'. 

I own stones from JNS, Gesshin, Shapton, and Naniwa; plus various sorts of naturals from Japan, Belgium, France, and the US... Depending on what I'm doing, nearly all of them could be considered 'workhorse' stones, as with various knives or tools I'd sorely miss them. Sharpening a bit of steel with a stone not ideally keyed to it can be slow and unpleasant. With the right tools, it's the opposite. Luxury, is the ability to match the right tools to the job. 

Let us know what sort of tools, in what sort of steels you want to sharpen... This will be helpful in trying to help you figure out whether or not your existing ones are the best for the job already, before deciding whether or not to add new ones. 

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## Michael Kindrachuk (Feb 21, 2020)

Thanks for the awesome replies. I hate to say it but the current knives they will be for is a set of Cuisineart set and a Wusthof. These are where I'd like to begin really starting to improve (again quite new to this). But I've purchased a Shigefusa kitaeji gyuto which I won't touch until I feel comfortable.

Mike


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## Steampunk (Feb 21, 2020)

Michael Kindrachuk said:


> Thanks for the awesome replies. I hate to say it but the current knives they will be for is a set of Cuisineart set and a Wusthof. These are where I'd like to begin really starting to improve (again quite new to this). But I've purchased a Shigefusa kitaeji gyuto which I won't touch until I feel comfortable.
> 
> Mike



Since you're working on improving your skills, those Naniwa stones are a great place to start...

If you'd like to upgrade at some point, I find the JNS 800 Matukusuyama to be an ideal stone for western stainless (I typically stop here if I can, on such knives, as long as I'm still able to achieve a shaving edge.). On good quality Japanese carbon, I find those Naniwa Chosera / Pro stones to have a lovely feel. For thinning knives (As one day you will your Shigefusa... This is quite an ambitious J-Knife to start with... I'd add a cheaper wide bevel to your collection to practice with, as well, as there are certain things you simply cannot learn with western knives.), there are others I prefer to thin, and then re-finish.

When you first start out, you sometimes finish knives at higher grits than you will later as your skill advances, as it makes the deburring process easier. Then you go backwards, and see how coarse you can go and still have the edges shave. Then you settle into some sort of happy medium.

Hopefully this helps...

- Steampunk

P.S. Shigefusa uses a combination of Shapton Glass, and JNS Matukusuyama synthetic stones, followed by natural stones when sharpening and finishing their knives after shaping them. Watch Maksim's video on this... Based upon my experience with thinning knives, there is a lot of sense in their process.


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## kayman67 (Feb 21, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> Stones interact uniquely with the steels and types of tools you are sharpening...
> 
> The Naniwa Chosera / Pro stones ('Pro' is a slightly reformulated Chosera, supposedly to help reduce the Chosera's crazing issue, but in function perform almost identically.) are excellent as previously stated, but like all stones suit some steels more than others.
> 
> ...



This is my experience. And usually my answer 
By the way, the Pro still has spider web cracks. Nothing changed.


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## Steampunk (Feb 21, 2020)

Here's Maksim's video of how Shigefusa's are made, and the stones they use in the sharpening process... An interesting film.

@kayman67 - I'm not entirely surprised. Wishful thinking to hope they'd fixed it... Lol.

- Steampunk


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## kayman67 (Feb 21, 2020)

I just epoxy them new and forget about it.


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## adam92 (Feb 26, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> Here's Maksim's video of how Shigefusa's are made, and the stones they use in the sharpening process... An interesting film.
> 
> @kayman67 - I'm not entirely surprised. Wishful thinking to hope they'd fixed it... Lol.
> 
> - Steampunk



Hi Steampunk, i see you had several synthetic stone. Haved you tried jns 300 and cerax 320?

compare JNS 1000 or 800 Cerax 1000, Shapton pro 1000?

Red aoto or synthetic Blue aoto from JNS?


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## Steampunk (Feb 26, 2020)

adam92 said:


> Hi Steampunk, i see you had several synthetic stone. Haved you tried jns 300 and cerax 320?
> 
> compare JNS 1000 or 800 Cerax 1000, Shapton pro 1000?
> 
> Red aoto or synthetic Blue aoto from JNS?



Hi Adam, 

I do own the JNS 300, the Shapton Pro 1000, and both the JNS synthetic Aotos. Here are my thoughts...

*JNS 300 Matukusuyama -* This stone is one of the few true Splash & Go stones, along with Shapton, which is a lovely feature (especially in a coarse stone.). It has a quite pleasant smoothness for a coarse stone, and is slow to dish. However, it cuts slower, and leaves a finer scratch pattern than 300 grit. I'd rate it closer to 500 in real life... On edge bevels and mono steels it doesn't really generate mud, but will on soft stainless or carbon cladding. 

If you're trying to do some heavy regrinding on a really wonky carbon clad knife, it wouldn't be the stone I'd pick. It can sometimes generate mud faster than it cuts in this situation, which I personally don't like. If you're trying to repair chips on a high HRC tungsten-alloyed carbon, or stainless knife, it does not cut much faster than a 1K as it doesn't release enough abrasive for these steels... However, if you're doing edge bevel repair on pure carbons (10xx, Shirogami, etc.), it doesn't cut too fast on these like most coarse stones do, but still usefully faster than a 1K. I also find it has a nice balance when thinning stainless clad san-mai, and low-carbide stainless alloys (VG-10, AUS-8A, 12C27, AEB-L, Ginsan, etc.). It generates just enough mud to cut faster than 600-1000 grit stones, but doesn't dish as quick as it does on carbon cladding, and leaves a scratch pattern that isn't too hard to refine and polish out. Just a nice balance in that application... 

It is a bit of a PITA to flatten, but rarely needs it.

On Japanese chisels or kiridashi/kogatana, this is a nice stone. 

*Shapton Pro 1000 - *True Splash & Go, and very slow to dish. Cuts more like 800, but with more consistency than the JNS 800. On edge bevels does not have the creamy feel of the Naniwa Pro 800, or the bite on high-carbide steels of the Shapton Glass 1K, or the speed of the JNS 800 Matukusuyama on gummy SS. I love this stone, but don't use it on edge bevels anymore. 

What it's amazing at is rather surprising... Thinning carbon or SS clad san-mai knives, and single bevels. In this application, this stone cuts without loading, dishing, or generating any mud, at a very consistent rate. Sometimes, it cuts more efficiently than coarse stones on san-mai, and I've even used it to take out Atoma 140 scratches. It lets you create a very precise blade road on the thinning bevel, and fix wabi-sabi grinds on carbon-clad better than any other stone I own... I only wish this exact same characteristic was available in an even coarser, faster stone... It doesn't create contrast, but uniformly polishes the blade, and gets it ready for contrast on a finer stone (Which is what I prefer to do.). It's an indispensable part of my thinning arsenal. 

It is a bit of a PITA to flatten, but rarely needs it.

It's usable on razors, and woodworking tools as well, but isn't my pick for either. 

*JNS Red Aoto Matukusuyama -* I love this stone... However, to me, it isn't a true splash & go. I permasoak it, though it's very fragile. I've had two of them crack on me. One for no reason before I started permasoaking (Maksim sorted it out. Great chap.); one because I dried it out after permasoaking. However, the feel, and the finish it creates are insanely good. This is part of the Shigefusa sharpening set, and as soon as you use it, you know why. 

The stone holds its water well once soaked, is very soft, generates mountains of the creamiest, most luxurious mud you've ever felt under a blade, and cuts at a moderately decent speed on most steels. It's also a huge ol' brick, like the JNS 800, and flattens in a matter of seconds no matter how badly it's dished. Just generally, it's a joy to use.

Its most obvious application is in the thinning and refinishing process... I like to thin knives up to 1000 grit with stones that don't really generate contrast, but create precise bevels and even scratches. Afterwards, I like to start building contrast with this stone (If I'm using a synthetic progression to finish a blade, which I sometimes prefer over naturals - shock, horror!), which it does amazingly. It develops a nice, consistent contrast on the cladding, and begins to polish the core to a semi-mirror. If you spend enough time working the mud with the right pressure, you can get a finish that is decent enough on its own to sometimes leave as-is if you're in a hurry. Taking the finish to an even finer stone does help lower the reactivity of carbon cladding, but this level still isn't too bad. 

The 'grit' of this stone is supposed to be a mixture of 2-4K. For general kitchen use, this is a brilliant place for an edge to be. The stone's easy to gouge if you're having a wobbly day, but with good angle control it's perfectly manageable. Since it's soft, you can get more edge convexing if you aren't careful with your pressure than with harder stones, though it isn't so bad on harder steels. The softness does make it a little more forgiving to deburr on than harder stones, though. I like it especially on Aogami 62hrc +, pure carbons in the 65hrc + range, and AEB-L at 62 hrc +. The abrasive doesn't cut high-carbide steels too well at all, but will polish them. It also works nicely on things like AUS-8 and VG-10, if you've used the JNS 800, and want a bit more refinement. Those two stones work hand-in-hand on edge bevels, but I don't like them together for thinning.

I wouldn't use this on razors or woodworking tools.

*JNS Blue Speckled Aoto Matukusuyama -* This stone has a polar opposite character than the JNS Red Aoto. It's still not a splash & go in my book, and likes permasoaking, but isn't anywhere near as fragile as the Red Aoto. The binder feel is kind of like the Gesshin 6000 S&G, but a little chalkier and less likely to load, and this stone uses a 3-5K grit blend apparently. I'd classify it as a medium-hard resin stone. 

For the beginner, this stone is much easier to use, as it's not so easy to gouge. Doesn't need flattened so often, but has a nicer feel than Shaptons, though. 

For refinishing wide or single bevels after thinning, this stone leaves me a little cold. It's not bad, but it leaves lower contrast than the Red Aoto (not as much polish on the core; not as dark of a finish on the cladding.). However, it's alright, and works consistently. 

For edge bevels, again, I'm not overly in love. The stone is fairly firm, so can transcribe more precise bevels with less convexing than soft stones, but it does not cut tungsten or vanadium carbide steels well at all. It's okay on Shirogami, VG-10/N690, Ginsan, etc. Kind of nice on SLD/D2, though, actually... However, the edge leaves me feeling a little 'meh'... Being neither a polished push-cutter like a 6K+ edge, or a toothy pull-cutter like a coarser edge. Kind of like the Shapton Glass 3K; it's neither 'here, nor there'. 

It's an utterly inoffensive, very consistent feeling stone... It just doesn't light any fires like the Red Aoto. 

I wouldn't use it on razors or woodworking tools.

Hope this helps... 

- Steampunk


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## adam92 (Feb 26, 2020)

Hi Steampunk,

Your reviews to me is extremely useful, My knife steel is SK5, Blue 1, Blue 2, SG2, Blue super & mizu honyaki white one.

I think I'll go red aoto instead of synthetic Blue aoto, Maybe cerax 320, Can't getting JNS 300 at the moment because out of stock.

For the JNS 1000, they seems good review out there for Honyaki & sanmai knife.

I was thinking to get the JNS Medium set but out of stock.

Maybe I'll getting JNS1000, Red aoto & Cerax 320.

My shapton pro 320 cut well for carbon but not good for SG2, gouge & dish quite fast.

Thanks again for the information, I'm really appreciate your review.


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## JBroida (Feb 26, 2020)

i always felt like the shapton pro 1k dished at a faster rate than most people seem to experience... i wonder why that is. Maybe its the way i use things. I've had to flatten in the middle of a wide bevel session before. Good stone though.


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## adam92 (Feb 26, 2020)

JBroida said:


> i always felt like the shapton pro 1k dished at a faster rate than most people seem to experience... i wonder why that is. Maybe its the way i use things. I've had to flatten in the middle of a wide bevel session before. Good stone though.


I see reviews on amazon seems good stone, but no contracts.

Shipping to New Zealand only cost 68 NZD, I saw JNS 1000 cost AUD around 100, even including Shipping still cost around 125NZD.

That's double price to Shapton pro 1K stone.

Still haven't pull the trigger yet as price is most concern.

I'm using cerax 1K, good contracts, harder than KING but to me still soft, have to flatten frequently. Maybe my last decisions neither cerax or Shapton pro 1K.

Why I'm not living in US


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## Steampunk (Feb 27, 2020)

adam92 said:


> Hi Steampunk,
> 
> Your reviews to me is extremely useful, My knife steel is SK5, Blue 1, Blue 2, SG2, Blue super & mizu honyaki white one.
> 
> ...



You have a nice sounding collection of knives... 

Everyone has different tastes with sharpening, but for the carbons, my favorite stone in the 800-2K range is the Naniwa Pro 800. However, it's not as capable on vanadium carbide steels like SG2 as the Shapton Glass 1K & 2k stones (Which are a different animal than the Shapton Pro stones.). It'll do it, but takes a hit on speed. The Shapton Glass 1K or 2K stones don't feel as nice as the Naniwa, but they will cut all the steels you mention equally well, and are arguably a little more convenient since they are true S&G. It depends which one you want to sacrifice... The feel on carbon, or the speed in sharpening the SG2. 

I agree with you on the Pro 320... It doesn't cut that fast on stainless, let alone those with vanadium. On high-HRC carbon or low-carbide stainless edge bevels, my coarse stone of choice is the Gesshin 400 soaker at the moment. For high-carbide stainless, I'm using Shapton Glass or diamonds at the coarse end.

For steels like SG2 and SRS-15, I don't tend to like the JNS stones (The JNS 1K I haven't tried, though.). The JNS 800 will work on anything as it almost feels like it's an SiC stone, but it's a little more aggressive than I like on nice, thin knives. I also don't like it for thinning... The rest seem to be more suited to carbons, refinishing clad blades, or simpler stainless/semi-stainless formulas. 

My favorites on SG-2 and SRS-15 are the Shapton Glass HR series stones, but Naniwa Pro sort of works in a pinch. Some of the Gesshin resin-bonded stones work nice on theses steels, too, but the shipping to NZ I wouldn't fancy. 

On carbons, the Shapton Glass HR series also works very well (Unless you're trying to create contrast.), but doesn't feel as creamy as the JNS, Naniwa Pro, or Gesshin stones. 

Given your situation, I would actually look at this sort of set... 

Shapton Glass 220-320 + 1K (Somewhat grating feel, but it works.) or Shapton Glass 500 + 2K (Smoother feel, but a little less aggressive.)... These stones will work on all your steels at the coarse-medium end. It seems like Shapton is one of the more affordable stone options in your area. No, they're not as nice feeling on carbon as the Naniwa Pros, but maybe you take a hit here for practical reasons.

On your carbons, you follow this up with the JNS Red Aoto or natural stones (A decent BBW or Coti is a surprisingly nice stone for this, and the medium-grit J-Nats that aren't quite so dear also can leave a lovely workhorse type kasumi.) to create contrast on wide/single bevels, and start finishing your edge bevels on those nice carbons. You can follow up with finer natural stones or maybe the JNS 6K. The SG2 you can either leave at 1-2K grit (How refined do you want this to be?), use a BBW or Coti if you have it, or pick up a Shapton Glass 4-6K stone for this (I like the 4K's edge... Also works on carbon.). 

Basically, this will give you a similar progression to Shigefusa for wide/single bevel work, with some options that'll also tackle your SG2 and Aogami.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## adam92 (Feb 27, 2020)

Suehiro cerax & Shapton pro both cost around 80NZD.

Shapton glass around 105NZD.

Only 25 NZD different but one is 15mm one is 5mm.

Do you think is worth extra money to get glass?

I see reviews said glass is slow wearing but still faster wear out than Shapton pro due to 5mm sharpening surface.

For my SG 2 Gyuto, i only leave the edge neither 1K or 2K edge as I'm handling veggies likes peppers.


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## Steampunk (Feb 27, 2020)

adam92 said:


> Suehiro cerax & Shapton pro both cost around 80NZD.
> 
> Shapton glass around 105NZD.
> 
> ...



I do think that for SG2 and the like, the HR Glass stones are definitely worth the extra, and what marginally shorter life they might have (The Pro stones will get quite fragile after you use them about halfway, unless you epoxy them to glass or marble, which costs.). The 500 is worth getting in double thickness since you'll lean on it the most, but the 1K & finer stones aren't too bad in terms of wear with how you use them.

I'm often left a little cold when I use my Shapton Glass stones, but I rarely if ever have that "Get down and cut you [insert expletive] !!!" experience that happens when I try to pair one of my nicer feeling, but less versatile stones with a steel it isn't happy with. 

With my Shapton Pros, there's typically one situation where the stones are really happy (320 Pro, softer carbon, 1K Pro, thinning, 2K Pro, bevel setting razors, etc.), but they're more 'specific' stones than the Glass series. 

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk


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## M1k3 (Feb 27, 2020)

Shapton, especially Glass= stones that just work. No excellent mirror finishes. Not very good Kasumi (can be coaxed into it, but, other stones do it better). They just work and dish somewhat slowly.


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## adam92 (Feb 28, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> I do think that for SG2 and the like, the HR Glass stones are definitely worth the extra, and what marginally shorter life they might have (The Pro stones will get quite fragile after you use them about halfway, unless you epoxy them to glass or marble, which costs.). The 500 is worth getting in double thickness since you'll lean on it the most, but the 1K & finer stones aren't too bad in terms of wear with how you use them.
> 
> I'm often left a little cold when I use my Shapton Glass stones, but I rarely if ever have that "Get down and cut you [insert expletive] !!!" experience that happens when I try to pair one of my nicer feeling, but less versatile stones with a steel it isn't happy with.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately i can't get double thick 500 Shapton glass, either no stock or shipping fees is crazy, But i think 1K glass should be fine.


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## M1k3 (Feb 28, 2020)

adam92 said:


> Unfortunately i can't get double thick 500 Shapton glass, either no stock or shipping fees is crazy, But i think 1K glass should be fine.



Is the regular 500 available?


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## inferno (Feb 28, 2020)

a good allround combo is the 500 and 3k imo. very seldom would one need finer or coarser than that. and the jump is a complete non issue.


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## adam92 (Feb 28, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Is the regular 500 available?


Yes, I only can get regular 500.

Another question is most of my knife single bevel, so i have to keep my stone flat all the time. Assume i lapping my stone every time before i sharp. Looks like 5mm surface cannot lasts for me, Cerax is soft, but still 25mm. 5X times double life?

However, i heard pro stone handling under HRC 62 knife is ok, above HRC 62 starting resist the steel & became slower.

I sharp my TF (HRC 64) works fine with my cerax 1K.

But have no idea how's work for white one Honyaki yanagi as I'm still waiting for my knife from ikeda.

Cerax 1010 25mm NZD 80
Cerax 2020 40mm NZD 150
Cerax 3038 50mm? NZD 160+


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## inferno (Feb 28, 2020)

you dont have to lap glass stones every time you use them. they will not bend or warp spontaneously.
the best part about the shaptons is that they are very hard, and needs very little flattening. and if you can spread the wear evenly they might never need flattening. thats unlikely though.

in my opinion both glass and pro will cut any common japanese steel. no need to worry. and they will do it fast.

if you want a 500 or a 1k then it makes sense to get the thickest stones you can get since these are the only stones that will wear, for 2k and above the wear will be minimal (unless its your only stone) and that 5mm could last a lifetime. but its actually 6-7mm on most of them.

on regular stones you cant use them to 0mm, they will crack in half at about 5mm or so unless you mount them to something stiff.

also you can order from dictum or fine-tools in germany or from sharpeningsupplies.com. you pay shipping and VAT or whatever you have there. but the euro VAT will be removed on checkout from euro retailers. VAT in germany is 19 or 20%.

i have ordered stuff from japan, germany, sweden, US, UK, you name it. I wouldn't discount other countries. to be honest i buy veeery little from my own country. never had a problem.


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## adam92 (Feb 28, 2020)

inferno said:


> you dont have to lap glass stones every time you use them. they will not bend or warp spontaneously.
> the best part about the shaptons is that they are very hard, and needs very little flattening. and if you can spread the wear evenly they might never need flattening. thats unlikely though.
> 
> in my opinion both glass and pro will cut any common japanese steel. no need to worry. and they will do it fast.
> ...



Seems like i have to pay same fees & shipping cost crazy.


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## inferno (Feb 28, 2020)

for example on dictum the glass 3k is 60€ and the 500DT is 65€ INC VAT. so it will be about 20% lower without, and the usd and the € is about on par in value today.


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## inferno (Feb 28, 2020)

50 and 55€ without vat for those 2. shipping is 40€ to NZ for under 1kg. you dont pay vat in NZ for the shipping cost only the products.

but yeah 40€ shipping. its not cheap. i would probably buy more stuff for it to make sense if it was me.


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## adam92 (Feb 28, 2020)

inferno said:


> 50 and 55€ without vat for those 2. shipping is 40€ to NZ for under 1kg. you dont pay vat in NZ for the shipping cost only the products.
> 
> but yeah 40€ shipping. its not cheap. i would probably buy more stuff for it to make sense if it was me.


Yeah, 2 stone cost 48 Euro for shipping cost.

Is € euro?

I probably ask my friend do he need anything so shipping fees splits


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## inferno (Feb 28, 2020)

yes € is euro.
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=NZD
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=NZD&to=EUR

dictum doesn't have everything but what they do have, they are usually the cheapest place in europe to carry.

whats grits of stones do you want? and what do you intend to do?

if you want some contrast on clad knives or honyakis dictum has small jnats for like 25-30€. its a lotto what you will get but it will probably make much better contrast than any synth stones imo.


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## Steampunk (Feb 28, 2020)

Value-wise, the double-thickness 500 in NZ isn't terribly over-priced for 2x the abrasive. Shipping is very high, though. 

When sharpening stone value is considered, one must consider several factors...

1 - On wide or single bevel knives, soft stones have to be flattened several times during the session if you want to keep your bevels even vaguely consistent. Hard ones, maybe only once. 
2 - Unmounted stones will get fragile once they're maybe 7-10mm thick. Mounting stones to a suitable substrate costs money.

This often offsets any thickness differential.

When it comes to sharpening single bevel, some people like to work with soft, muddy stones to try to compensate for any irregularities. Others like to spend the extra time on hard stones, to get the main bevel REALLY straight, so that future sharpening is easier since your geometry is nice and precise. 

I tend to be in the latter camp. My replies are biased on this... If you're in the former camp, I'd talk with a sharpener who works on that... For this, big, brick like stones, and starting at lower grits than you'd initially think tends to be what sharpeners prefer (Starting at 150-220 when you'd think 320-400 would do, starting at 320-400 when you'd think 1K would do, etc.). With soft stones, you have to compensate for rapid loss of flatness with aggression. 

For me, starting with coarser Shapton Glass will 'train' your bevels, and then after that you'll have less irregularity... With my inclination on single bevel, either a 500 SG Double or a 1K Shapton Pro would be the workhorse stone. After that, it's about merely refining the finish. Before that, it's about hogging off metal without ruining the geometry (In the event of chips, or holes in the grind.), which I still haven't found the ideal stone for with Japanese steels. 

I guess the issue here, in part, is that you need two different sets of stones to ideally tackle your knives... One for single bevel carbons, one for high-carbide double bevels. 

For single bevel carbon, I'd want a really coarse grinding stone that stays pretty flat (Still haven't found an ideal one... Possibly grinding belts cut-down in a holder, Norton SiC or AlOx stone, metallic bonded CBN, resin-bonded diamond, etc.), followed by the Shapton 1k Pro, followed by the JNS Red Aoto + 6K, or a natural stone progression. Similar for thinning wide bevel. Alternatively, the SG 500 Double, followed by a medium-grit J-Nat (Good quality Binsui, Ikarashi, Natsuya, Saeki, etc.), then maybe one of the more affordable natural finishers (Even a koppa). The latter is going to be the more 'fun' setup.

For double bevel high-carbide, I'd want either the Shapton Glass 320 + 1k, or Shapton Glass 500 + 2K providing you don't need to finisher higher. 

Finding a single set of stones which is perfect at both types of knives, is harder than putting together two sets. 

Hope this helps.

- Steampunk


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## inferno (Feb 28, 2020)

just wanted to say thanks to steampunk because he has posted many very good informative posts on stones these last days!

in my experience the glass 220 is aggressive fast and good. for serious material removal. also the pro 220 is good but its softer and a bit slower. and it wears faster. they will probably last about the same time tough.

the glass 500 is completely different though, its very hard and dish resistant comparatively. but you give up speed obviously. much faster than a 1k tough even the pro 1k.

i got a thin 500 and a 3k for my cousin. we did 6 or so knives run into the ground in a few h, and he learned to sharpen. i was very glad i didn't have a 1k as the coarsest! the transition to the 3k was very good. 
this is why i think the 500 and 3k is a good combo. the 3k is just fine enough to take things into the really sharp territory. even with crap SS. much better than 2k if you ask me. the 2k both glass and pro always feels on the very edge for for me. i finish _all_ customer knives on the 2k though but none of my own if that says anything. always 3k or 4k for me. unless i take them up to 12 or 8k.


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## adam92 (Feb 28, 2020)

inferno said:


> yes € is euro.
> https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=NZD
> https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=NZD&to=EUR
> 
> ...



My 1K cerax about 13mm left.
Shapton pro about 9mm left.

I just purchase a Uchigumori from Nutmeg, should be arrive next week or so, for synthetic i want some between 220-500 for coarse stone, Medium grit i need 1k to replacement when my cerax run out of life, which cost another 6-12 month? depands how often i sharp.


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## adam92 (Feb 28, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> Value-wise, the double-thickness 500 in NZ isn't terribly over-priced for 2x the abrasive. Shipping is very high, though.
> 
> When sharpening stone value is considered, one must consider several factors...
> 
> ...



I found my cerax 1k have to be lapping frequently due to softness, cut very fast on my sg2 but the only downside is not lapping, Although lapping by atoma is very fast.

Shapton glass i can only get normal thickness is New Zealand. SG 500 cost around 100nzd including from local vendors.

does it worth to pay extra 40euro for shipping to get double thickness?

As I'm only do thinning job maybe once a month on my SG2 Gyuto.

Usually i start from 1k stone for weekly sharpening. So 1K is extremely important to me, make it easier to fine grit stone.

Before i get my cerax, i was using 1000-4000 combo from JCK, But the stone totally useless when sharpening SG2, feels doesn't cut at all and tooks forever to raise the burr, that's why I'm getting cerax in that time.

Now my main concern is, does it worth extra thickness for 500 glass which cost another 40 bucks shipping, or just stay with amazon & local vendors as they almost same price.


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## inferno (Feb 28, 2020)

the 220ies imo is for very serious material removal. like instead of a belt grinder. if you dont need to thin out blades very often or very much or you make knives from scratch you probably dont need it. but yeah the 220 glass is one of the cheapest glass stones. like 30€ or so, so its no big money to add one. maybe you even want the 120 then. i have not tried that one though.

then the thing is: you probably wont need a 1k if you have a 500 and 3k. a 1k is a good baseline stone if you intend to end up on 5-6-8k or so. and never repair stuff. but when you start to accumulate more stones, you will probably want more speed. hence a 500. and then a 1k or 2k wont make much sense anymore, because you can jump directly to 3-4k if you intend to finish there. 

i don't know, i think i'm a bad person to ask about stones. since i have 220, 500, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k, 6k, 8k, 12, (and usually several different ones in all grits) 15-20k, coticules, several D-plates, 1 uchi, and i have had about 7-8 different 1k's at the same time just try try out. i think i had 40 stones here one time  sometimes you have to try them out yourself, what can i say. 

so for me the more the better. i like to have the option to put on a 8k, 6k or 4k edge instead of a 2k or 3k just because. but thats just me.


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## inferno (Feb 28, 2020)

adam92 said:


> I found my cerax 1k have to be lapping frequently due to softness, cut very fast on my sg2 but the only downside is not lapping, Although lapping by atoma is very fast.



_*the glass 500 wont need lapping often for the amount of material it removes imo. *_

Shapton glass i can only get normal thickness is New Zealand. SG 500 cost around 100nzd including from local vendors.

does it worth to pay extra 40euro for shipping to get double thickness?

_*i think so at least if buying several stones, the 500DT is one of the best shapton stones and one of the best/most useful stones i have ever used*_

As I'm only do thinning job maybe once a month on my SG2 Gyuto.

*but if you get more knives which you will sooner or later, and it will very likely be high carbide steels then they might come handy again, they are handy for all steels though, they abrade all steels with the same speed. thats the beauty*

Usually i start from 1k stone for weekly sharpening. So 1K is extremely important to me, make it easier to fine grit stone.

_*the 2-3-4k shaptons are so fast so you can probably starts there for weekly sharpenings, no need to go down to a 1k that often.*_

Before i get my cerax, i was using 1000-4000 combo from JCK, But the stone totally useless when sharpening SG2, feels doesn't cut at all and tooks forever to raise the burr, that's why I'm getting cerax in that time.

Now my main concern is, does it worth extra thickness for 500 glass which cost another 40 bucks shipping, or just stay with amazon & local vendors as they almost same price.

_*thats only for you to deciede, you get twice as much stone as the regular one, but i at least think the 500 is one of the most useful stones. its a very fast stone that stays flat. and cuts everything. but i would probably stock up on more stones if getting them from germany to negate the shipping. i live in sweden, this is a neighbour country to germany, but usually when i order from there, i order for about 200 or so. and i usually choose next day delivery to my job  and shipping here is usually free or cheap, but next day cost 30-50 or so.*_


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## adam92 (Feb 28, 2020)

inferno said:


> the 220ies imo is for very serious material removal. like instead of a belt grinder. if you dont need to thin out blades very often or very much or you make knives from scratch you probably dont need it. but yeah the 220 glass is one of the cheapest glass stones. like 30€ or so, so its no big money to add one. maybe you even want the 120 then. i have not tried that one though.
> 
> then the thing is: you probably wont need a 1k if you have a 500 and 3k. a 1k is a good baseline stone if you intend to end up on 5-6-8k or so. and never repair stuff. but when you start to accumulate more stones, you will probably want more speed. hence a 500. and then a 1k or 2k wont make much sense anymore, because you can jump directly to 3-4k if you intend to finish there.
> 
> ...


Oh my god, you have so many stone out there, if i purchase too many stone my girlfriend might be kill me .

I think i definitely need 1K replacement as I'll use 500 only for repair minor chips & light thinning.

I haved atoma 400 & 1200 i can use but i don't like it, i only use for company knives & for lapping.

Because I'm cutting fish, sashimi & raw meat, for yanagiba i need to go above 8K & Uchigumori.

for Gyuto, sometimes finishes at 2K pro, but usually stop at 1K cerax as more toothy edge for handling peppers. depands what i cut .

I don't have 4k at the, moment as i left my JCK combo in my home country drawer.

Now only 2 options left i might go with it.
From dictum, getting 2 stone(500X2 thickness & 1K glass)

I try to click more stone from dictum but even i do, i didn't get free shipping.

Example 2 stone cost 48 euro shipping, 4 stone cost 65 shipping.

Shapton pro 2k is good stone but seems slower than my cerax 1K, Usually 2 pass raise the burr on cerax & i move to 2k.

If i start my yanagiba on 2k SP, seems tooks very long time to raise burr, cerax 1k to start with it's like day & night speed.

Since NZ local vendor out of stock also, my only option will be dictum .


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## inferno (Feb 28, 2020)

yeah thay have probably some algorithm there going where they simply estimate the weight of the stones. a newish thin glass weighs about 370-400g, the paper box 30g. a glass 500DT 650-750 or so, and that also comes with the plastic box from the pro series, 107g there. 

the "free shipping" is for germany only and possibly the nearest countries with the slowest shipping.

if you already have A pro 2k no need for a 3k glass imo. then a 4k glass would make more sense. and maybe a pro1k (if you can get it locally cheap).

for 8k i like the shapton pro the best, it just felt better, very minor though. but i had borrowed a few 8k for a shootout and i liked the pro the best. glass 8k hc was kinda rubbery weird feeling, but polished better though.
----------------

for the 1k. i'm not sure the 1k glass or pro will be any faster than the cerax, i kinda doubt it. but i guess they will stay flatter. 
but yeah with a 500 for the heavy lifting you might not need any 1k at all! especially if you can follow up with a 2k. and the pro 2k is very fast for its grit imo. 
it might even be so that the cerax 1k rival the glass 500 for speed. but if it dont stay flat then that speed is not worth much imo. i can whip out my angle grinder, its ultra fast. but i'd have some work to do on the stones after that if you know what i mean. so in the end its not that fast.


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## kayman67 (Feb 29, 2020)

Steampunk said:


> Value-wise, the double-thickness 500 in NZ isn't terribly over-priced for 2x the abrasive. Shipping is very high, though.
> 
> When sharpening stone value is considered, one must consider several factors...
> 
> ...



This is why I went for Naniwa Pro 800, followed by Traditional 2000 and Rika. And for grunt work, Shapton Pro 120. And maybe a Nanohone 400. All are more or less price approachable.

I usually look at things from a different perspective. Since I tend to pile up stones and sharpen knives a lot (I have about 30 at the moment), it's what works that actually delivers performance with ease. I don't care about brand or how something can be made to work. What would I want for those knives? That's what I ask myself every single time. Like I've said before, there's an array of stones that can be made to work in one way or another and there isn't a definitive stone for anything or everything, but I consider what would I grab or what would I have liked to have with me and I don't (from the stones I have or know). And then I consider if those stones are most suitable for a given situation here. And this changes things sometimes. What I like is not always the best recommended thing. It's not always exactly what I use daily (for example I use Gesshin 1000 a lot and as it turned out recently, so do a lot of people), but what offers the best balance with bias towards important stuff, if possible. I mean, if you can have that as well, would be foolish not to.
On the flatness of the single bevels, eventually they all get pretty even. It doesn't take that many sessions for most of them. Worth mentioning here, unless they were designed flat, I keep the hamaguri sharpening and don't go for entirely flat blade road. This is not related to low spots per se, but might be confusing for some people. I've seen it before. Beta togi would eventually even anything as well. Having looked at things in Japan for a while, I actually think we expected too much most of the time and exaggerate some flaws while not focusing on the important parts. It's a cultural thing more than anything. It happens to me a lot without even realising right away.
Back to stones, something like Gesshin 1000 is pretty soft, but I just use the entire surface as much as possible and let the stone do its thing. I never struggled with keeping it flat. Yet again, I usually don't as I don't ask one particular stone to do something like another stone.

Anyway, I just looked at some numbers to see if I can get them and mail cheaper to NZ, but seems not, especially from Dictum, because Dictum has some high prices even for Europe, but also because shipping to NZ looks to be expensive on its own (28€ without insurance).
As a side note, shipping is why I usually like knivesandtools, plus the discounts they offer when combining some stuff. Normally I end up much lower than with Dictum. Problem is that they don't ship all over the world.


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