# Underrated Knives/Makers



## ob-gym (Jul 31, 2017)

What knife or maker do you guys feel doesn't get enough hype? What are we all missing out on? Why do you guys think the hype train passed them by?

I'll start - *Masakage Shimo*: VERY beginner UNfriendly knife stuck in a "beginner" brand 

The Good
- Extremely good heat treat of White #2 by Yu Kurosaki - pleasure to sharpen with great edge stability/retention
- Killer grind, very well convexed for a thin blade
- Great feedback on the board for sanmai 
- On sale yearly at Knifewear + CAD to USD exchange rate = great deal _sometimes_

The Bad
- Reactive as hell cladding
- More expensive than Yuki for same core steel, Yuki is also stainless clad
- Masakage is generally seen as a "gateway" knife brand, not much talked about on KKF
- Many people avoid paying the "damascus tax" and want simple cladding for max price/performance


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## valgard (Aug 1, 2017)

In keeping with the Masakage trend I nominate the Masakage Koishi by Hiroshi Kato, very good all around gyuto, little reactivity, and nice handles.


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## MastrAndre (Aug 1, 2017)

I nominate Xerxes

These are incredible knives, 101% customisable, with an awesome F&F 

They'd really deserve a bigger (or proper) hype


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## labor of love (Aug 1, 2017)

Gesshin ittetsu wh2 gyuto. Amazing profile. Really nice finish/polish ootb. Really well finished ho wood handles. Seems like so many people sleep on this line.


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## pleue (Aug 1, 2017)

Tilman and Harner both do excellent work and seem to undercharge compared to other custom makers. Stephen Fowler as well.


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## gic (Aug 1, 2017)

Masahiro virgin carbon, much better than say the Misono Dragon and cheaper. I don't know any mass produced carbon knife in anything close to its price that performs as well..


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## khashy (Aug 1, 2017)

I think the Takamura Uchigumo is not talked about here. 

It's a truly first class knife, basically if you only had one knife for the rest of your life and it was an Uchigumo, it would be a life happily lived. It's that good, it really is. 

Perfect grind and geometry as far as I'm concerned and god it looks good. 

It's not cheap but it's definitely worth it. If you can ever get your hands on a 240, buy it! you'll see what I mean.


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## Wdestate (Aug 1, 2017)

yoshikazu ikeda. I have owned a lot of knives over the years and his out perform almost everyone i have ever tried, this includes most of the ones you hear mentioned often around here.


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## Matus (Aug 1, 2017)

I would not call Ikeda knives underrated, but rather less 'in' here on KKF. 

I second the Masakage Koishi. My new nakiri (after smoothing out the bevels) is a great performer. But the status of the Masakage is probably because many vendors carru it, the price is rather resonable and they are made (forged) from pre-clad material (not a surprise thou, VERY few knifemakers forge-weld AS steel). But the forging work is nice and even, the handles are nice too, F&F is great. And if you put a little work into it, you will get a nice kasumi on them.

And let's not forget to mention Itinomonn StainLess. Some of the best grinds out there, excellent profile, F&F, performance. Price, in particular for the, 210 is a bargain. I think Maxim should bring more knives in that line (nakiri, santoku, longer petty or even honesuku)


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## tommybig (Aug 1, 2017)

Matus said:


> I would not call Ikeda knives underrated, but rather less 'in' here on KKF.
> 
> I second the Masakage Koishi. My new nakiri (after smoothing out the bevels) is a great performer. But the status of the Masakage is probably because many vendors carru it, the price is rather resonable and they are made (forged) from pre-clad material (not a surprise thou, VERY few knifemakers forge-weld AS steel). But the forging work is nice and even, the handles are nice too, F&F is great. And if you put a little work into it, you will get a nice kasumi on them.
> 
> And let's not forget to mention Itinomonn StainLess. Some of the best grinds out there, excellent profile, F&F, performance. Price, in particular for the, 210 is a bargain. I think Maxim should bring more knives in that line (nakiri, santoku, longer petty or even honesuku)



Absolutetly second the Itinomonn StainLess. Judging on how fast these are sold on JNS and BST, it does not seem underrated in the KKF.

I would definately buy a longer Petty of the Itinomonn StainLess. I really miss the "Line knife" category in most offerings.


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 1, 2017)

Yoshimune, outstanding grinds and HT. He's a one man band so his production is low but so are his prices. His KU Stainless clad W#1 bunka is an absolutely hoot.


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## ob-gym (Aug 1, 2017)

MastrAndre said:


> I nominate Xerxes





pleue said:


> Tilman and Harner both do excellent work and seem to undercharge compared to other custom makers. Stephen Fowler as well.



Definitely not many customs in recommendation/discussion threads, but they're WAY out of budget for most people, so not too many people have tried them even compared to Kato and Shigs.

What makes a "hype-worthy" custom maker? The experience of working with them? The unique aesthetic that each smith develops? Performance gains over traditional Japanese blades?


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## ob-gym (Aug 1, 2017)

Matus said:


> And let's not forget to mention Itinomonn StainLess. Some of the best grinds out there, excellent profile, F&F, performance. Price, in particular for the, 210 is a bargain. I think Maxim should bring more knives in that line (nakiri, santoku, longer petty or even honesuku)



Definitely not underrated, but on my short list for sure. Maxim seems to be eliminating knives from that brand - almost all the carbon options are gone. The selection is just very limited in general, what is going on?


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## ob-gym (Aug 1, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Yoshimune, outstanding grinds and HT. He's a one man band so his production is low but so are his prices. His KU Stainless clad W#1 bunka is an absolutely hoot.



Very unique knife, never seen a finish like it. The price is really reasonable too. Do you have any measurements/choil shot to share?


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## Matus (Aug 1, 2017)

ob-gym said:


> Definitely not underrated, but on my short list for sure. Maxim seems to be eliminating knives from that brand - almost all the carbon options are gone. The selection is just very limited in general, what is going on?



Well - the maker may not be interested in the deal, or overbooked with orders from another vendors, etc. Or the knives did not sell all that well and Maxim is restructuring his offerings. Many possible reasons.


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## Choppin (Aug 1, 2017)

I would love to see a return of the iron-clad Itinomonn line. There were some beautiful KU pieces, including a very useful 210 petty/suji


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## Matus (Aug 1, 2017)

Choppin said:


> I would love to see a return of the iron-clad Itinomonn line. There were some beautiful KU pieces, including a very useful 210 petty/suji



+1 friend of mine as a 210 gyuto (tall, lot's of belly) and loves it. The KU is fantastic.

EDIT: I mean the knife is tall and has lot's of belly - my friend in question is actually a slim guy


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## Choppin (Aug 1, 2017)

Matus said:


> +1 friend of mine as a 210 gyuto (tall, lot's of belly) and loves it. The KU is fantastic.
> 
> EDIT: I mean the knife is tall and has lot's of belly - my friend in question is actually a slim guy



Haha got it. I recently got a 165 KU nakiri from that line, great performer.


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## milkbaby (Aug 1, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Yoshimune, outstanding grinds and HT. He's a one man band so his production is low but so are his prices. His KU Stainless clad W#1 bunka is an absolutely hoot.



I really dig his aesthetics but never heard much hype about his work. Due to the low production, I can see how he'd easily be underrated.


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## dwalker (Aug 1, 2017)

milkbaby said:


> I really dig his aesthetics but never heard much hype about his work. Due to the low production, I can see how he'd easily be underrated.



The word is the tip is special on his gyutos. I've yet to try one. Passaround anyone?


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 1, 2017)

Masakage... as a beginner brand (for users, not collectors that is)?

...

Wonder if there is any relationship between the Shimo, the Fujiwara FKJ damascus, and Dictum 719112? Some similarity, certainly not identical...


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 2, 2017)

Know I'm the bottom fisher, Blueway Japan Sakai Ichimonji blue steel core stainless Nashiji clad. With wooden oval handle cheap for what they are. Thick spine esp. near handle, thin behind the edge. Slightly blade heavy, excellent cutter.


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## labor of love (Aug 2, 2017)

keithsaltydog said:


> Know I'm the bottom fisher, Blueway Japan Sakai Ichimonji blue steel core stainless Nashiji clad. With wooden oval handle cheap for what they are. Thick spine esp. near handle, thin behind the edge. Slightly blade heavy, excellent cutter.



Yeah, that's a true sleeper. I almost bit on the ichi handle ichimonji.


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## Brady686 (Aug 2, 2017)

Imo, there's a bunch of "underrated" knife makers. I think underrated can have a different meaning based on perception (obviously). With that being said... Marko Tsourkan is awesome and not very talked about. Nakaya Heiji a saw maker from japan who also makes great wide beveled knives. Kagekiyo is great. Tanaka ironwood r2 is up there too even though alot of people own them, I still feel like they don't get the praise they deserve, truly an incredible knife.


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 2, 2017)

He sold out of those, also the 240mm oval handle. Has one with Ebony octagon handle 240mm it costs more over 2 bills.


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## labor of love (Aug 2, 2017)

Brady686 said:


> Imo, there's a bunch of "underrated" knife makers. I think underrated can have a different meaning based on perception (obviously). With that being said... Marko Tsourkan is awesome and not very talked about. Nakaya Heiji a saw maker from japan who also makes great wide beveled knives. Kagekiyo is great. Tanaka ironwood r2 is up there too even though alot of people own them, I still feel like they don't get the praise they deserve, truly an incredible knife.


I'm actually keeping an eye out for the mailman, a heiji should be arriving any minute.


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## ob-gym (Aug 2, 2017)

Brady686 said:


> Imo, there's a bunch of "underrated" knife makers. I think underrated can have a different meaning based on perception (obviously). With that being said... Marko Tsourkan is awesome and not very talked about. Nakaya Heiji a saw maker from japan who also makes great wide beveled knives. Kagekiyo is great. Tanaka ironwood r2 is up there too even though alot of people own them, I still feel like they don't get the praise they deserve, truly an incredible knife.



Exactly why I started this thread, for some recommendations that don't include the usual suspects: Itinomonn, Wakui, Toyama/Watanabe, Ginga, Takamura, Kato, Shig, Konosuke, etc 

Definitely interested in Kagekiyo, beautiful knife, but is it more than just a pretty face?


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## ob-gym (Aug 2, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Masakage... as a beginner brand (for users, not collectors that is)?
> 
> ...
> 
> Wonder if there is any relationship between the Shimo, the Fujiwara FKJ damascus, and Dictum 719112? Some similarity, certainly not identical...



For "enthusiasts", Masakage doesn't have much the mystique of one old Japanese dude in a mountain village dedicating his life to knifemaking - your Kato and Shigefusa. It's a line of knives designed to be marketable from the start, lots of different colors and fancy finishes to entice beginners. They're great performers and beautiful (Yuki and Shimo especially), but are too cheap and common to have much appeal to collectors and hardcore knife nuts.

Not sure about the others, but the Shimo is unique - it's not damascus at all, but a porous iron cladding that was pounded by a X shaped hammer head to make the pattern. No pattern welding at all, just cheap iron. Kurosaki Yu really has a great eye for design.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 2, 2017)

Sure it isn't a pattern weld? it's specified as a 6+6 layer suminagashi... 

Some pattern welds are subtle until they patinize ... compare https://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/anryu.html ... got that one, you hardly see the pattern if freshly off a stone, but the patina intensifies it...

" Masakage doesn't have much the mystique of one old Japanese dude in a mountain village dedicating his life to knifemaking "

It does have the mystique of realistic but high class, traditional toolmaking for users, doesn't it? The whole "made in batches by passing along a handful of specialized artisans spread across town, in a way that still makes such methods practical today" narrative is sexy if you want good tools


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## Customfan (Aug 2, 2017)

Like the thread and the discussion but hard to pin down since everyones idea of the perfect knife differs... but we can try..

IMHO opinion there are a bunch of makers that are underrated, agree on most of what is said, masakage, fujiwara, heiji even toyama and others.. totaly agree on xerxes.. for non Japanese I like a lot of the new generation that are producing some exciting steel, treating, handles, etc. Haburn, Kayne knives (Greg), Desrosiers, Nguyen and the list goes on.... of knives that are really worth taking a close look... I know I am! :wink:

Now the real question is, what is underrated? Talked about or that the price is below what it should be? Sometimes different things... tend to catch up sooner or later. 

The other thread I would like to see is what knives are overrated! Do we dare? &#128576;


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## ob-gym (Aug 2, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Sure it isn't a pattern weld? it's specified as a 6+6 layer suminagashi...
> 
> Some pattern welds are subtle until they patinize ... compare https://www.feinewerkzeuge.de/anryu.html ... got that one, you hardly see the pattern if freshly off a stone, but the patina intensifies it...
> 
> ...



Ah you're right the suminagashi right above the cladding line is VERY similar to your Anryu

Masakage knives are great tools, and I love my Shimo, but I have no idea who actually made my knife - most likely not Kurosaki himself, but apprentices who did most of the work. On my Toyama though, I know exactly who did everything from forge welding the Blue #2 to final easing and polishing. Not practical at all, but it DOES feel pretty special to hold someone's lifetime of effort in your hands


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## bennyprofane (Aug 2, 2017)

MastrAndre said:


> I nominate Xerxes
> 
> These are incredible knives, 101% customisable, with an awesome F&F
> 
> They'd really deserve a bigger (or proper) hype



This was also my first thought. Considering that there is a waiting time of more than a year, he is not exactly underrated but he is not often mentioned around this part of town. 
His convex hollow grinds are amazing and the edge of his 1.256 steel knife is the longest lasting carbon steel of any of my knives and doesn't need to hide behind any pm steel.

For a great example of his work, see the pictures in this thread: http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/1434/mechanical-masterpiece-xerxes-knives

Some more pictures:

http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/472/workhorse-oder

http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/992/25er-laser-mit-olive

http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/536/galerie-serienmesser

If you don't want to wait for more than a year for a custom of his, his Primus series will be available again in autumn: http://messerkontor.de/?s=xerxes&post_type=product


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## Ruso (Aug 2, 2017)

Very subjective subject. 
Many makers that being reported as "underrated", I do not find to be so. Just found it interesting.


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## Brady686 (Aug 2, 2017)

ob-gym said:


> Exactly why I started this thread, for some recommendations that don't include the usual suspects: Itinomonn, Wakui, Toyama/Watanabe, Ginga, Takamura, Kato, Shig, Konosuke, etc
> 
> Definitely interested in Kagekiyo, beautiful knife, but is it more than just a pretty face?


My blue 1 kagekiyo is one of my favorite knives. Amazing cutter with good edge retention and stylish. Also fairly easy to sharpen.


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## pleue (Aug 2, 2017)

I'd say yoshikane doesn't get enough love.


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## panda (Aug 3, 2017)

after using my masamoto hc gyuto all day, i have got to say it is the nicest beater out there. it has heft, is tall and very comfortable wooden handle. kinda expensive for a beater but i got mine used for barely over $100 so it was a bargain. there is something very nice about having a non slim mono steel blade.


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## Matus (Aug 3, 2017)

pleue said:


> I'd say yoshikane doesn't get enough love.



They were more 'in' when Maxim still had them. Actually a 270 SLD suji was my first 'proper' Japanese knife. I sold it of course as that was not what a novice can use, but we still have a 150 SLD petty with handle from Dave and I still have a 165 SKD hakata santoku (which I do not use and should probably sell it) that has incredible edge holding and great F&F. Both SLD and SKD lines hold edge extremely well yet can still be reasonably easily sharpened.


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## JaVa (Aug 3, 2017)

pleue said:


> I'd say yoshikane doesn't get enough love.



Absolutely agree 100%. 
After I got mine a a few weeks ago I'm blown away by how is it possible the SKD line isn't getting the love it deserves??? 

I get the feeling the hammer finish divides opinion and it's not carried by any of the most recommended vendors? 
Anyway, crazy good performer.


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## Nemo (Aug 3, 2017)

JaVa said:


> Absolutely agree 100%.
> After I got mine a a few weeks ago I'm blown away by how is it possible the SKD line isn't getting the love it deserves???
> 
> I get the feeling the hammer finish divides opinion and it's not carried by any of the most recommended vendors?
> Anyway, crazy good performer.



Yeah. I really like the profile too. Used it as a template for my custom Tristone.

Speaking of, the Tristone is amazing.


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## tsuriru (Aug 4, 2017)

Some really interesting knives and makers mentioned here. Keep them coming


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## Duckfat (Aug 4, 2017)

Kagayaki, Especially the VG-10. Under rated, under appreciated and an absolute bargain at the current price point.

Dave


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