# Micro-chipping after sharpening - what am I doing wrong



## DisconnectedAG (Apr 26, 2019)

Hi everyone,

Mo moritaka 210mm AS guyoto was feeling a bit blunt at the tip so I took it to the stones. In order to get an even wear, I did the whole blade. After the process and cut testing I saw that there was a micro-chip along the front half of the blade. 

Can anybody advise me on what I'm most likely doing wrong? I appreciate it may be tricky when you can't see my mediocre technique, but I was hoping more experienced sharpeners than me have probably come across something like this. 

My guess is that I wasn't controlling the angle well enough and therefore got it too thin, but any thoughts appreciated. Or maybe I messed up the pressure at one point?

My progression currently is a 1.5k Chosera -> 4k Ohishi from Cleancut -> 8K Shapton Pro. I learned from YouTube and have worked on my own knives for a while with OK results (sharp but ugly), but not come across this before in any of my blades. For reference, I've watched the Korin tutorials primarily, although of course also a bunch of the JKI videos as well and those are the techniques I am trying to emulate. 


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## chinacats (Apr 26, 2019)

My guess (being that you are somewhat new) is that you likely used too much pressure.


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## Nemo (Apr 26, 2019)

Was it a microchip or a bit of residual burr?

@chainacats raises an important point. If you use heavy pressure to raise a burr on the first (coarsest) stone of your progression, you can then abrade this burr ON THE SAME (coarse) STONE by sharpening with gradually lighter levels of pressure until on the last pass, you are barely using the weight of the knife. 

To polish the bevel on finer stones, you will only need light pressure on each stone.

Pete Nowlan (@Sailor) made a video that demonstrates the technique pretty well: 

My own sharpening took a great leap forward, especially for stainless steels, when I began doing this (thanks Pete).


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## inferno (Apr 26, 2019)

there can be lots of reasons for that to happen.

1 you are putting a too narrow angle edge on there that the steel cant really handle.
2 you are putting too much pressure on the edge and thereby weakening it and it simply flakes off on the higher grit stones.
3 you didn't actually remove that chip on the lower git stones. but it was hidden by a burr.
4 that steel was weakened/chipped/fatigued before you began but still holding together but now when you removed metal it got so weak it dislodged.

there can probably be other reasons too i guess.

I would revert down to coarse and make sure you really finish there before moving up.


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## GoodMagic (Apr 26, 2019)

Hard to know. Just use it as an opportunity, start again, using a stone coarse than 1.5, and put a new edge on it.


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## panda (Apr 27, 2019)

you have to lick the stone before and after sharpening.


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## DisconnectedAG (Apr 27, 2019)

Thanks for the solid advice (except the licking the stone I do that already). Will give this a new go and use this as a learning opportunity.


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## refcast (Apr 27, 2019)

The shapton 8k stone is probably very hard, so just make sure there is no grit from the lower stones. Just wash a lot with clean water during use. The higher grit, the harder the stone, and the lower the angle --> the more fragile the edge that is produced. But it's also sharper, if you like that. Edge retention wise, usually not better.

Hair, dirt, soil. Those things can get stuck on the stone and cause chips. 

But off course the chip could just be from cutting stuff with a thin edge. So just sharpen to a lower grit or higher edge angle.


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## GeneH (Aug 3, 2019)

Nemo said:


> Pete Nowlan (@Sailor) made a video that demonstrates the technique pretty well:




Good video. I don’t understand the part about “over refining the edge and losing edge retention” though. 

It took me a long time to figure out the the value of light passes before moving to the next stone.


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## Benuser (Aug 4, 2019)

All excellent advices. My guess would be a fat burr that came off with the 8k, leaving a damaged edge behind and whose remnants made things even worse — but you should have heard it. It's a sound you never forget.
Start again as said before with a medium-coarse stone, say 600, stay there until you can't reduce the burr any further. Raising, chasing and reducing the burr with one and the same stone.


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## DisconnectedAG (Aug 4, 2019)

Can tell you for sure there was no sound, but do agree it needs a do over. Probably dome thinning too. I'll get to it at dome point in the near future.


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## kayman67 (Aug 4, 2019)

Maybe start using a bit of an asymmetrical sharpening, raising the angle on the outside of the blade just slightly and see how the edge works for you. You can always go back if you don't like it. I've seen this in Japan. Does wonders for some people/knives/usage scenarios.
Also, after having the burr a third time (that's the side you start with), use only the weight of the knife and, if you can, use edge leading strokes only. They are kinda tricky at first. If not, just do some stropping passes (edge trailing), J-strops or not. If you really have trouble removing the burr, there are some other ways to do it. Most like using a piece of wood/cork, but the best way I found was using a heavier strop made specifically for this. Wood/cork won't work best on all alloys/burrs/geometries.
Let me know if you want some visual aids. In the video above, at some point I could see how one motion killed the edge a little, but he fixed it. Thing is this. You can always make some mistake. It's important to know what to look for, to feel what happens and not go further.


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## DisconnectedAG (Aug 5, 2019)

kayman67 said:


> Maybe start using a bit of an asymmetrical sharpening, raising the angle on the outside of the blade just slightly and see how the edge works for you. You can always go back if you don't like it. I've seen this in Japan. Does wonders for some people/knives/usage scenarios.
> Also, after having the burr a third time (that's the side you start with), use only the weight of the knife and, if you can, use edge leading strokes only. They are kinda tricky at first. If not, just do some stropping passes (edge trailing), J-strops or not. If you really have trouble removing the burr, there are some other ways to do it. Most like using a piece of wood/cork, but the best way I found was using a heavier strop made specifically for this. Wood/cork won't work best on all alloys/burrs/geometries.
> Let me know if you want some visual aids. In the video above, at some point I could see how one motion killed the edge a little, but he fixed it. Thing is this. You can always make some mistake. It's important to know what to look for, to feel what happens and not go further.


Thanks. I'm always impressed by this community. The thing is, I have no problems getting a good and consistent edge on any of my other knives. This includes a Matsubara, Masakage Yuki, an AS bunka from JKC, an R2 laser from Kurosaki and a Moritaka B2 nakiri, which all perform nicely on the stones. I thin that by now I do understand burr formation and removal and I typically finish by very light edge leading stokes after a sharpening progression. I also, and I mean this not in a "i'm so great at this" but just as an illustration at how anomalous this chipping is in my personal experience, get satisfactory edges on a bunch of globals and yaxells, so the steel I have access to and get to sharpen covers almost the whole spectrum.

There's lots of good advice in this thread. I think what this particular guyto needs is a full reset of the edge. I haven't had time (small baby in house and working), but will start on a 600 and then take it all the way up to 8k as it's AS and that should be able to take a very refined edge. I always do a pressure progression on the coarser stones, first raising a burr on each side, then running the knife much gentler on the same stone, so that's already incorporated into my sharpening practice.


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## kayman67 (Aug 5, 2019)

If I'm telling you that sometimes one knife might not like at all being bullied with a coarser stone and pressure, would you consider me coo coo?


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## DisconnectedAG (Aug 5, 2019)

You may well be on to something. Will ha e to experiment. I think a slight bevel reset is warranted.


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## M1k3 (Aug 5, 2019)

Bread knife the edge to dull and remove possibly fatigued edge. Then sharpen your knife.


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## RDalman (Aug 5, 2019)

Edge might been burned in production also (grinding/polishing) , if so a bevel reset or two usually sorts that.


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## kayman67 (Aug 5, 2019)

If it was new, that might be something to consider. 

I did the best I could testing a huge number of very different stones, knives, all kinds of sharpening systems. All I got in the end was a great deal of experience, but I could not find something to get the best results for everything. Honestly, sometimes I wish there was that something.


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## osakajoe (Aug 5, 2019)

Did you actually inspect your edge before sharpening. I agree with above comments and you probably didn’t grind out a chip that was there from the beginning. 

If the knife was really mistreated and rusted out, small pits could of formed causing these “chips” 

Unless your are sharpening on a flat angle constantly (like a single bevel) it’s kind of hard to thin too much by hand on a stone. Just make sure your consistently sharpening at a 13-14 degree angle.

Make sure to grind out all the chips on a lower grit and debur. If your edge is clean and no chips, proceed to next stones. If chips form again could be steel issues or you hitting the edge somewhere or making a mistake.


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## nutmeg (Aug 5, 2019)

Many good advices here.
By watching the picture my guess is that the bevel is too narrow or maybe you were kind of "unlucky" because of unexplainable reasons (the steel itself, a hard particle on the stone etc..)
I might be wrong but in my experience I don't see 8-10kg pressure on coarse stones as "dangerous" for the blade anymore and since you didn't use any diamond plate I doubt you used even the half of this pressure.


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## DisconnectedAG (Aug 6, 2019)

No, guys. This is a brand new knife. It hasn't been used heavily, not even properly patina:d yet. It certainly had not rusted, as I take good care of my knives. It may well have been too narrow, but that was still a factory grind. I haven't re-profiled this knife and at that time had done only normal sharpening. I have had no problems on my other moritaka or other, better quality knives. While it's more than likely that I did something weird, the chip came off right after sharpening. this problem has never happened on any other knife, and I am mindful of my angles and pressures, etc. 

My guess, after reading a lot of suggestions and also reading up more overall is that the edge was a bit chippy (as this is so minor) and what it needs is a reset. Given how meh the moritaka grind is overall, a reset is warranted anyhow, so I just have to get to it. I don't think this needs a diamond plate, will start on a shapton pro 320, then naniwa 600, naniwa 1500 and then take it up to 8000 for a final polish. (then put it on BST once I'm happy with the job, as this knife has never been my friendo).


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## -toa- (Aug 6, 2019)

Sounds like a plan. No need to overthink it. You´ll have it up and running soon, and perhaps also be a better sharpener afterwards  I´d encourage you to give it a try before selling it, both to give the knife a chance, explore the profil (unusually low tip), try the steel etc (a highlight of the knife).


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## DisconnectedAG (Aug 6, 2019)

-toa- said:


> Sounds like a plan. No need to overthink it. You´ll have it up and running soon, and perhaps also be a better sharpener afterwards  I´d encourage you to give it a try before selling it, both to give the knife a chance, explore the profil (unusually low tip), try the steel etc (a highlight of the knife).


I've done some cutting with it, jusr find it a bit weightless. The profile is OK ju takes getting used to, esp the flat heel. The steel, not in love. Overall I just find it doesn't compare well to my Mazaki or Masakage for example.


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## Benuser (Aug 6, 2019)

-toa- said:


> Sounds like a plan. No need to overthink it. You´ll have it up and running soon, and perhaps also be a better sharpener afterwards  I´d encourage you to give it a try before selling it, both to give the knife a chance, explore the profil (unusually low tip), try the steel etc (a highlight of the knife).


Use it at home during perhaps two weeks as a one and only for ALL tasks. Sharpen it in between, fine tune your technique. That's a way to learn to know a knife, before deciding whether it should go.


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## kayman67 (Aug 6, 2019)

Agree. Knives can even be, to an extent, changed to suit someone's needs. But when you have others that you really like, it's very hard to find reasons for making it work if not love at first cut.

Still, I wouldn't put a lot of pressure and be aggressive with that grind.


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## Benuser (Aug 6, 2019)

First impression is rarely right, and says more about what you're used to, than about what you're actually handling.


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## Carl Kotte (Aug 6, 2019)

Benuser said:


> First impression is rarely right, and says more about what you're used to, than about what you're actually handling.



I wholeheartedly agree with this. My initial impressions with new Gyutos e.g. is always like: -This feels wrong! (I guess the reason is that I’ve used a particular chef’s knife so much that every knife, whether I want to or not, gets to be compared to that one). If I had acted on those first impressions I’d still just have that one knife (in that category). Would I’ve had more money left? Possibly, but I’d probably have wasted them on something else - but that is another story


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## kayman67 (Aug 6, 2019)

I'm lucky! My knives are so far away from each other, I might just have a bias on knives alone and nothing else ))))))
Joke aside, like I've said, tends to get harder to find reasons on the spot when you have knives that you like a lot. I always try to use them for a while.


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