# Mixing different stones



## krx927 (Nov 26, 2014)

I am thinking of ditching my EdgePro and buying a set of proper stones. Unfortunately there are so many different ones it's hard to choose.

Being from Europe I found some nice (reasonably priced) options for Chosera and Naniwa (super stones).

I read that Choseras are faster and last longer so being limited with budget I am thinking of getting Chosera 1000 and then like 5000+8000 super stones.

Will this work together?

I am also reading conflicting info about Naniwa professional stone, is this new Chosera or Super stone?


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## chinacats (Nov 26, 2014)

I don't know about the stones you've mentioned, but Maxim @ JNS has a nice starter set that would likely cover your needs at a fair price.

Cheers on ditching the edge pro...your knives will thank you.


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## masibu (Nov 26, 2014)

Chosera 1k is pretty good and the ss 5k polishes well. The ss are pretty soft and easy to gouge. The combination certainly works although I don't really use it. If the price is cheaper than for other combinations of stones though maybe it is worth considering


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## EdipisReks (Nov 26, 2014)

My most used combo is a Chosera 1k followed by a Gesshin 8000. Really nice.


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## ecchef (Nov 26, 2014)

masibu said:


> The ss are pretty soft and easy to gouge.



Fact. They leave a nice enough finish, but it feels like you're sharpening on clay.


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## krx927 (Nov 27, 2014)

masibu said:


> The ss are pretty soft and easy to gouge.



Sorry I am new to this area; what do you mean by gouge? That the blade of the knife cuts in stone?



ecchef said:


> Fact. They leave a nice enough finish, but it feels like you're sharpening on clay.



So this is what I was reading about super stone that they do not give feedback?


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## psfred (Nov 27, 2014)

Gouge is when the blade cuts into the stone. Doesn't do the stone any good and removes the apex on the edge so you have to back up a grit level and re-apex the edge.

I have a synthetic blue aoto that is very muddy and gives very little feedback, but does a great job of polishing/grinding an edge. You sorta have to go on faith, there is no "feel" of abrasion with that stone for the most part, especially when it muds up.

Sadly you will find that every knife steel (and possibly every individual knife) sharpens differently, and what works great for one doesn't give you the edge you want for another. 

Most of us here seem to obsess a bit about ultimate sharpness, though. If you are happy with a knife that cuts pretty well and doesn't take much work to keep it that way, you will be a lot happier with your stones.

Peter


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## krx927 (Nov 27, 2014)

Now all the pieces of this puzzle are coming together! Thanks guys.

Yesterday I sharpened 2 knives on Zwilling twin pro (250/1000). I had this stone for ages but never used it as I bought EdgePro. And today I am reading that this is actually Naniwa super stone :lol2:

Yesterday I almost could not believe that 1000 side is really 1000 japanese grid as it is so smooth, no way I would call it medium stone on the feel - at least compared with standard EdgePro stones. I thought it is some different scale Zwilling is using. 

Now I also understand all your comment on my questions:
"The ss are pretty soft and easy to gouge", indeed the 250 got really used and has nice deep. 1000 I did not try hard, I will see today as I have 4 large knives to sharpen.
On top of it I was constantly cutting in 1000 side  really annoying. I hated it. *So other stones are better (much?) in this respect?*

I did not understand this "but it feels like you're sharpening on clay" until I read psfred commented:"there is no "feel" of abrasion with that stone for the most part, especially when it muds up"
Exactly what I was feeling on 1000, no feel of abrasion.

I go back to improving my skills, but the 2 knives from yesterday were pretty nicely sharpened.

and psfred I am not obsessed with ultimate sharpness, for the moment just with very high sharpness


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## Benuser (Nov 27, 2014)

My preferred progression is Chosera 800, Chosera 2k, Naniwa Snow-white 8k. Rarely use the Chosera 5k anymore. The Naniwa Professional is the same as the old Chosera, just a bit thinner and a tad more expensive. In Europe, have a look at knivesandtools.nl and affiliates (.de, .fr, .co.uk).


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## psfred (Nov 27, 2014)

Naniwa Superstones in the lower grits are quite soft and wear very quickly. They cut just fine, but you have to flatten them constantly.

If you are digging into the stone all the time, slow down and concentrate of moving the blade at a constant angle across the stone from end to end (this will also reduce the dishing, you need to use all of the surface as evenly as possible). You may need to change the height of the stone relative to your arms so that you get an easy back and forth motion of your arm from the shoulder. Most beginners have trouble keeping the blade at a constant angle to the stone, and a really dull knife usually doesn't have a wide enough bevel for you to feel the rocking. 

You should not apply pressure to the blade, the weight of your hands is plenty. More pressure does not result in faster cutting, but it will greatly increase the rate at which the coarser stones dish. Let the abrasive do the work. 

And get a magnifier of some sort. 20x is good, but 10x will help a great deal. Use a black marker to "color" the bevel on a dry knife, then make a couple passes on the stone, that will tell you where you are grinding away the ink.

By the time you have sharpened three or four knives you should be able to hold the angle pretty well. You can make a very effective and cheap angle guide with a piece of squared cornered paper -- the corner is 90 degrees, fold to the point by putting the two edges together and you get 45 degrees, repeat and you have 22.5 degrees, repeat again and you have 11.25 degees. These angles are close enough to the "standard" 20 degrees per side for European knives and 12 degrees per side for Japanese knives with equal bevels (or single bevels on one side only with the back flat) to get a decent edge. Or you can set up your honing system to see what the angles you want are.

I'm afraid you will get much more interested in truly sharp edges once you get them, and will want to get harder steel knives to maintain them longer -- it's easy to fall down the rabbit hole! The difference between my German profile chef's knife with a rather battered edge and even the cheap Korean ex car spring gyuto was amazing.

Peter


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## Mr.Wizard (Nov 27, 2014)

psfred said:


> You should not apply pressure to the blade, the weight of your hands is plenty. More pressure does not result in faster cutting, but it will greatly increase the rate at which the coarser stones dish. Let the abrasive do the work.



I realize you were probably speaking specifically of the Super Stones but this is not universally true. More pressure does result in faster cutting up to the point where the stone itself starts yielding too quickly to the pressure. There should be an optimal speed an pressure (distinct from force) for a particular combination of steel and stone.


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## krx927 (Nov 28, 2014)

Benuser said:


> My preferred progression is Chosera 800, Chosera 2k, Naniwa Snow-white 8k. Rarely use the Chosera 5k anymore. The Naniwa Professional is the same as the old Chosera, just a bit thinner and a tad more expensive. In Europe, have a look at knivesandtools.nl and affiliates (.de, .fr, .co.uk).



Thanks for info and confirmation. I was already checking the site and selecting. 
Can you tell me exactly which stone is Naniwa Snow-white 8k - perhaps a link?

Do you know what are Naniwa Specialty Stone - what is the difference to Chosera/professional?


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## krx927 (Nov 28, 2014)

psfred said:


> Naniwa Superstones in the lower grits are quite soft and wear very quickly. They cut just fine, but you have to flatten them constantly.



In general how often do you flatten the stones, let's say Chosera 1000?



psfred said:


> If you are digging into the stone all the time, slow down and concentrate of moving the blade at a constant angle across the stone from end to end (this will also reduce the dishing, you need to use all of the surface as evenly as possible).



yesterday evening I sharpened another 2 knives and it was much better. I flattened the stone and was concentrating more. I never cut the stone 



psfred said:


> And get a magnifier of some sort. 20x is good, but 10x will help a great deal. Use a black marker to "color" the bevel on a dry knife, then make a couple passes on the stone, that will tell you where you are grinding away the ink.



Yes I need to buy one! I know the sharipie trick, my problem is that now I am sharpening really dull and bad knives that do not have any pronounced bevel. So basically I need to create new bevel (I am using coworkers cheap knives I offer to sharpen. I do not want to start on my Japanese ones )



psfred said:


> By the time you have sharpened three or four knives you should be able to hold the angle pretty well.



Luckily this part is going quite well. In fact I was amazed after my first sharpened knive 2 days ago. Bevel was really constant, of course not EdgePro like, but good. EdgePro still gives you some knowledge that can also be used for freehand...




psfred said:


> I'm afraid you will get much more interested in truly sharp edges once you get them, and will want to get harder steel knives to maintain them longer -- it's easy to fall down the rabbit hole! The difference between my German profile chef's knife with a rather battered edge and even the cheap Korean ex car spring gyuto was amazing.



I am there already, I am just switching from EdgePro to freehand. I already have a nice collection of Japanese knives, ranging from Akifusa, Moritaka, Miyabi, Rayusen, Yoshikane and Shigefusa on the way(I hope it will come coon).


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## Benuser (Nov 28, 2014)

krx927 said:


> Can you tell me exactly which stone is Naniwa Snow-white 8k - perhaps a link?


I'm afraid it has disappeared from their catalogue! Look elsewhere for Naniwa Junpaku.


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## psfred (Nov 28, 2014)

Sorry, I should have said light pressure, not imply none at all. If you are moving from oilstones to waterstones you will need to learn to reduce the pressure you use quite a bit, the pressure required to get a well used Arkansas stone to cut will wear out a waterstone very quickly in my experience. I still tend to use too much pressure.

There is another issue with coarse stones and high pressure with thin edges and hard steel, and that is microcracking at the edge. This is much worse with diamond 'stones' as the grit will not roll under excessive pressure. The very high localized pressure point where the grit meets the steel can exceed the strength of the steel and cause a tiny crack to form which will grow as the knife is used, causing tiny bits to break out and dull the knife. This is not an issue with softer steel, but when you get up to 60 RC and higher it becomes a problem. Lots of woodworkers found this out the hard way with super hard Japanese chisels attempting to use Arkansas stones back when the chisels first showed up in the US.

With dull knives you have to work for quite a while, even sometimes on a coarse stone, to get rid of the rounded over edge, and if they have been "sharpened" with a pull through sharpener or a serrated steel, it will take a while to get the nicks out. One look at an edge on a Fibrox yanked through a pull-through sharpener will persuade you to dump the pull-through in the trash and get some stones. 

Free-handing will usually give a bit of convexity to the edge, which is not a bad thing so long as the apex is clean and sharp. Convexity tends to push food away from the side of the blade and reduces sticktion while also leaving more steel just behind the edge for strength. Easily overdone, but a small amount is good.

Peter


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## chinacats (Nov 28, 2014)

krx927 said:


> In general how often do you flatten the stones, let's say Chosera 1000?



Flatten every time you use any stone and if you're using one stone excessively, flatten during use.


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## krx927 (Dec 2, 2014)

psfred said:


> There is another issue with coarse stones and high pressure with thin edges and hard steel, and that is microcracking at the edge. This is much worse with diamond 'stones' as the grit will not roll under excessive pressure. The very high localized pressure point where the grit meets the steel can exceed the strength of the steel and cause a tiny crack to form which will grow as the knife is used, causing tiny bits to break out and dull the knife. This is not an issue with softer steel, but when you get up to 60 RC and higher it becomes a problem.



Do you think this was the issue I was experiencing when sharpening Aogami super (still on EdgePro)? 
I started with 120 (original EP stones)until the burr and everything was fine. But then when I switched to 220 I was sharpening for some time and then I saw that the blade is full of very small chips. I was amazed by this.
This never happened on any other knife that I have. They are PM steels and ZDP189.


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## krx927 (Dec 2, 2014)

chinacats said:


> Flatten every time you use any stone and if you're using one stone excessively, flatten during use.



Now after I sharpened some knives on my Zwilling twin pro I can see that they really need flattening constantly. I need to get something better than my current big ceramic (back end) tile and the concrete blocks in front of my house 

One additional question: if I take the some flattening block like this:
http://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-naniwa-flattening-block-grain-size-24.htm

I suppose this block will eventually also need flattening so you have never ending story with flattening?!

Any other (not extremely expensive) recommendations for proper flattening tool (not cinderblocks and similar)?


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## Mr.Wizard (Dec 2, 2014)

krx927 said:


> Do you think this was the issue I was experiencing when sharpening Aogami super (still on EdgePro)?
> I started with 120 (original EP stones)until the burr and everything was fine. But then when I switched to 220 I was sharpening for some time and then I saw that the blade is full of very small chips. I was amazed by this.
> This never happened on any other knife that I have. They are PM steels and ZDP189.



I think that's entirely possible. The stock EP 120 takes a lot of pressure to cut hard steel, at least until a slurry is formed. The 220 I had was worse; it skated over anything hard so I stopped using it entirely. If your 220 was/is similar you might have caused the chipping with it if you were pushing hard. I ended up rebeveling an Aogami Super blade with the 320 stone because it cut with less pressure.

Are you still using the Edge Pro? There are much better stones for hard steels inexpensively available: the BORIDE CS-M line.


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## krx927 (Dec 3, 2014)

Mr.Wizard: thanks for the info/tip. My only problem is that it is pretty hard to find these stones in Europe...


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## Mr.Wizard (Dec 3, 2014)

krx927 said:


> Mr.Wizard: thanks for the info/tip. My only problem is that it is pretty hard to find these stones in Europe...



If you have not done so already see what Mold Shop Tools will charge for shipping to your location. Do you have an Apex or Pro? If Pro do you make use of the stone ramp?


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## krx927 (Dec 3, 2014)

I have Apex. I do not even know what stone ramp is.

I will contact Mold Shop Tools to see. Even if I start freehanding seriously and buy some nice stones (Chosera probably) I will still have a use for it sometimes...


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## Mr.Wizard (Dec 4, 2014)

krx927 said:


> I have Apex. I do not even know what stone ramp is.
> 
> I will contact Mold Shop Tools to see. Even if I start freehanding seriously and buy some nice stones (Chosera probably) I will still have a use for it sometimes...



The "stone ramp" is a feature of the Pro model that lets you use a longer stroke by running off the back end of the stone. However if you wish to use this feature it is difficult to use thicker stones. Since you have an Apex should should be able to easily use thicker stones. (You should still compensate for stone-to-stone thickness variations using the drill stop collar method or angle cube.) For maximum economy get 1/2" thick stones in the coarsest, fastest wearing grits, or whatever you reset bevels with. For the finer grits the 1/4" stones will cost less and should last a long time anyway.

The Mold Shop Tools site is occasionally difficult to navigate. Search for "CM1201" for all 1/2" x 1" x 6" CS-M stones, and "CM1401" for all 1/4" CS-M's.


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## krx927 (Dec 6, 2014)

Wizard, tnx for the clarifications. 
In the mean time I contacted Mold Shop Tools and Heinz was helpful in pointing me to the correct part of the site to find appropriate CS-M stones. The site indeed is difficult to navigate.

Unfortunately the shipping to Europe is going to cost me as much as the stones... anyway if this stones are better it's worth it. Original EP 120&250 are really rubbish.
And like you said EP will be great for resetting bevels, for this task I will for sure continue to use EP despite moving to freehand.


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## Mr.Wizard (Dec 6, 2014)

Know that the CS-M's are softer and will wear faster. However they actually cut without the high pressure that the stock 120 needs. (The original white 220 was nearly useless for me so I only used it briefly; I found the original 320 cut faster.) When working on a very narrow bevel go light or you'll just waste grit. Nevertheless I am confident that you will find them very useful if you work with hard or wear-resistant steels.

The edge off the CS-M's isn't particularly sharp but they set up very well for a finishing stone. From your description it doesn't sound like you will be finishing on the EP so that shouldn't be a problem. If you are let me know.


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## krx927 (Dec 6, 2014)

Perhaps I will also be finishing on EP sometimes... Let me hear your advice please...


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## Mr.Wizard (Dec 6, 2014)

Nothing special. Only that you move from the CS-M to one of the alumina stones like the AS-9 or Golden Star, even if its a lateral move meaning 1000 CS-M to 1000 Golden Star for example. The AS-9's are the brick colored stones that used to ship with the EP in 320, 600, 1000 and still do in 600. The Golden Star is the new yellow 1000 that currently comes with complete kits. I agree with Ben Dale's choice to switch to the Golden Star; I like it better. (And I am sorry doesn't come in 1200.) If your kit didn't come with one I recommend you add it to the order. It's not listed at Mold Shop Tools but Heinz will likely be happy to get one for you.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 7, 2014)

If I were you would contact Japanese Natural Stones. He can steer you in the right direction.


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 8, 2015)

krx927, have you received your order from Mold Shop Tools yet? Which ones did you ultimately order?


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## krx927 (Jan 9, 2015)

I did not order yet as I was on long holidays  I will go for CS-M for coarse grits.

But this week I ordered/received some Naniwa professional stones: 400, 1000 and 3000. Now I am still waiting for Naniwa Snow White to arrive. I think this combination will do it for me for foreseeable future.

Yesterday I sharpened a few knives with them and they are just fantastic! What a difference compared to super stones! I really like them.

I will still go trough with the purchase of CS-M for coarse stones but I think EP will be my back up solution for sharpening. I really think I will go completely free hand 

Do you know if Mold Shop Tools is selling also blanks for EP?


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 9, 2015)

With that set of stones and your enthusiasm for freehand perhaps you should forgo the EP altogether. :nunchucks:

Mold Shop Tools does not sell blanks but all you need to make your own is some 0.125"x1" aluminum, a hacksaw, and some sandpaper or a grinder. If you have the skill to freehand sharpen surely you have the skill to make these too. I have made several with only a hacksaw and sandpaper as each time I only needed one and it was faster than getting out, setting up, running, cleaning up, and putting away a grinder would have been. (I have no permanent place for one.)


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