# Hattori KD...why all the hype?



## labor of love (Jun 4, 2016)

I'm curious why these knives are in such high demand. They look pretty ordinary. Wear resistant stainless, fancy cladding, pretty pedestrian profile and grind. Are they expensive just because they're really hard to find?


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## panda (Jun 4, 2016)

hattori hd series is as crappy as shun and i don't see anything potentially special from the kd series photos/specs. there are other knives with pretty damascus patterns if that's what you're into, so why all the hype?


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## mikedtran (Jun 4, 2016)

Not answering the question, but I will say I'm not a fan of the bolster/handles, thought others seem to love them. 

Someone who owned one told me the handles are a bit on the small side also.

Be best to ask the guys who own one to see what they think of the grinds. I know gic has a gyuto. Don't see many of them for sale these days so definitely a true unicorn.


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## rick_english (Jun 4, 2016)

Why don't we wait until the one on B/S/T sells before we comment on them?


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## panda (Jun 4, 2016)

why? this is a legitimate discussion.
i'm guessing it's merely a collectors item since so few are out there.


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## richard (Jun 4, 2016)

Or better yet, maybe put our energy to more productive uses than trashing something based purely on conjecture, possibly in the aim of making oneself feel better that they're not missing out on anything.

(Disclosure: not obsessed with or looking to get a KD)


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## bkultra (Jun 4, 2016)

Not to long ago the Hattori KD was considered the paragon of high end kitchen cutlery. The smith (Mr. Ichiro Hattori) is very well respected and in his 70s. He rarely makes knives these days and spends most of his efforts teaching his knife making and techniques to young craftsmen. The steel itself was one of the many "super steels", the fact it is also no longer in production adds to it allure. Its a simple case of supply and demand


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## Godslayer (Jun 4, 2016)

Rarity, its a retired master smith(kinda like keijiro doi) but instead of yanagis its gyutos so its more in demand. Exotic steel and damascus definatly play a factor. Think regular kramer vs damascus 5k used to 25k. But its price is 50-70% rarity i dont know what a 240 sold for on jck im guessing 800-$1200 given the steel and damascus, wooden kiri box etc. Im surprised it isnt on the bay, hed probably of sold it by now. This is a blade that will appriciate beyond $2500 in 10-15 years time once the bladesmith passes i wouldnt be suprised if this was a 10k blade auctioned off to collectors never to see a drop of food :'( i also have no issue saying its most likely a very very good knife cowry-x is basically a more exotic zdp-189 just more expensive and i think slightly higher in carbon(too lazy to look up) if i was a celebrity chef with millions of dollars id buy one and use it. For now its just me and my takamura uchi.


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## simymatt (Jun 4, 2016)

What steel is used for this particular series?


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## brainsausage (Jun 4, 2016)

simymatt said:


> What steel is used for this particular series?



Cowry-X


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## bkultra (Jun 4, 2016)

simymatt said:


> What steel is used for this particular series?



CowryX and nickel stainless damascus


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## panda (Jun 4, 2016)

so no real practical reason, a la kramer knives. gotcha.


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## j22582536 (Jun 4, 2016)

labor of love said:


> I'm curious why these knives are in such high demand. They look pretty ordinary. Wear resistant stainless, fancy cladding, pretty pedestrian profile and grind. Are they expensive just because they're really hard to find?



Yeah...I think the fact that they are quite hard to find is the main reason why the price is so high. I once saw a 210 gyuto appeared on a Japanese website for approximately $1500USD couple months ago, however I didn't pulled the trigger because I am not a big fan of the KD series. They probably are not as bad as panda said they are, but I just don't think they worth more than Kato, Shigefusa, and Tsukasa. <-- again, just my opinion.


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## hambone.johnson (Jun 4, 2016)

I think worth it has to do with how you view your collection and what you're looking to get out of it in the future. 

There are makers and knives out there that will appreciate with time much like wine or cars. If you're purchasing knives with this in mind the worth is actually calculable. If you're just looking for another knife to experience the geometry and steel and compare it to others as a cutter you would be hard pressed to find value there.


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## Dave Martell (Jun 4, 2016)

I always enjoy sharpening KD's. It's a super hard powered steel that sharpens on stones like white#1...buttery....and it deburrs super clean with an aggressive edge even from polishing stones. 

Users have always complimented on edge retention being very high and of course the knives look good and they have great F&F too....plus the damascus is stainless.

They were worth the price charged when new.


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## Dave Martell (Jun 4, 2016)

From japanesechefsknife.com:




> *Without any compromises, Traditional Craftsman, Mr. Hattori has devoted all his energies, times, experiences and techniques to create these beautiful Chef's knives, using ancient forging technique of the swordmaking. Each blade is hand forged fromCowry X core steel with Nickel Stainless Damascus steel. Cowry X is the tough powdered metal alloy specially developed by Daido Steel Company for high performance cutting tools. It contains high carbon (3%) and high Chromium (20%) with 1% Molybdenum and 0.3% Vanadium, and can be heat treated to HRC63 to 67 without brittleness.
> *




The pattern comes from this: 


> *The Cowry X Steel blank is hand drilled and hammered repeatedly to create beautiful Damascus design.*
















The handle:


> *Sturdy black linen Micarta handle enhanced with nickel silver bolster and rivets, fits perfectly with your hand and is water and shrinkage proof. *


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## TheDispossessed (Jun 4, 2016)

Honestly a good majority of the blades seen in these parts are over the top, so while the KD isn't for me, to each their own. I've had more than my share of near $500 knives and feel that honestly, anything over $300 is going into big boy toy territory. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but the best Japanese chefs I've worked with who had incredible skill never used anything nicer than Suisin IH for example. At least the KD seems to invest most it's decadence in the damn blade, I just don't get the handle thing.....


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## Johnny.B.Good (Jun 4, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> The handle:



Didn't you rehandle one of these once, Dave?


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## hambone.johnson (Jun 4, 2016)

TheDispossessed said:


> At least the KD seems to invest most it's decadence in the damn blade, I just don't get the handle thing.....



Agreed.


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## Dave Martell (Jun 4, 2016)

Johnny.B.Good said:


> Didn't you rehandle one of these once, Dave?




I've been asked to more than a few times but I always get out of it when I say that I can't offer the exact shape.


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## fujiyama (Jun 4, 2016)

Didn't the 240 gyuto sell for around $300 when new?..

I'm a big fan of the KD series, but let's be honest. It's not _that_ special. It's a collectors piece but not worth what it sells for these days.


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## richard (Jun 4, 2016)

No it was more like around $1200


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## rogue108 (Jun 4, 2016)

I wrote in the other B/S/T thread this about the KD knife

Personally don't care much about ridiculously priced knives based on rarity (i.e. Kramer)

In one of my responses I referred to the lore of his career about how it sort of represented a pinnacle of his career because he had spent so much of his life making hunting/combat knives, and only entering kitchen knife making toward the end of it. He want didn't compete with his families company Masahiro but he did the three lines The HD, KD, and FH (KF Forums series) before retiring due to age and health concerns.

All the stuff I mentioned about his life is here. Its pretty neat.

http://hattoricollector.com/

The steel was rare (Cowry X) and no longer made.

No more blades will ever be made.

His construction process was supposed to be precise and detailed.
Especially how he created the Damascus pattern. He drilled holes in every blank and hammered it to get the damascus pattern.






I couldn't imagine drilling little holes into each blank without going through the other side and neatly. It doesn't look like it was done by a CNC machine but by hand. It must of taken forever.

I guess these could all be compelling reasons to own a KD.


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## rogue108 (Jun 4, 2016)

Dave Martell said:


> I've been asked to more than a few times but I always get out of it when I say that I can't offer the exact shape.



It looks like the tang tapers a bit like a production Kramer, not as dramatic but its still there. I have no idea, how you would ever get the wood to fit on a tang that tapers.


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## brainsausage (Jun 4, 2016)

rogue108 said:


> It looks like the tang tapers a bit like a production Kramer, not as dramatic but its still there. I have no idea, how you would ever get the wood to fit on a tang that tapers.



I bet Dave does


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## spoiledbroth (Jun 4, 2016)

Doubt it's very difficult hiromoto had tapered tang too!


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## Lucretia (Jun 4, 2016)

I have a little 135mm KD. It's my very favorite knife for putting up tomatoes (I blanch, peel, quarter and freeze them.) I don't know what it is about the knife, but it's super nimble coring, cutting out bad spots, etc. The micarta handle is perfect for a task where it's going to spend hours soaking in tomato juice. Its biggest flaw is the spine wasn't rounded at all (and we have wabi-sabi where I got impatient with a sharp spine.) BUT--I would say I can put up tomatoes about 20% faster with the KD than with any other knife I own. It's like driving a sports car vs. a big spongy luxury sedan, even when comparing with similar sized knives.


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## ecchef (Jun 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> I bet Dave does



Yup. :wink:


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## Dave Martell (Jun 4, 2016)

brainsausage said:


> I bet Dave does




No he doesn't. :scared4:


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## Johnny.B.Good (Jun 4, 2016)

Lucretia said:


> I have a little 135mm KD.



When and where did you acquire this tomato killer?


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## malexthekid (Jun 5, 2016)

To the guys having a go at the prices it goes to because its rarity i woulf suggest that anything over $600 is basically just paying for some degree of rarity.

Look at Dave's knives, compared to most other customs his are a bargain uet from all reports theu perform perfectly.

Add to that i can put up just as good a meal with my Scanpan chef's knife as i can with me Itou or Ealy or Tansu.

They look beautiful, and i am sure if I had the cash i would buy it in a heart beat


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## spoiledbroth (Jun 5, 2016)

obviously this just looks like a sique arse knife with a profile nobody could complain about, cool dammy (and I hate flash) and an otherwise unheard of steel... nae sure what people are complaining about it's not like they ever even come up for sale, which, like those diamond stones jon sells should say something. though I doubt many kd were produced. 

also in canada KD stands for "kraft dinner" like "macaroni and cheese" as it is called in america. so there's that too.


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## inzite (Jun 5, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> obviously this just looks like a sique arse knife with a profile nobody could complain about, cool dammy (and I hate flash) and an otherwise unheard of steel... nae sure what people are complaining about it's not like they ever even come up for sale, which, like those diamond stones jon sells should say something. though I doubt many kd were produced.
> 
> also in canada KD stands for "kraft dinner" like "macaroni and cheese" as it is called in america. so there's that too.



well said well said!


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## toddnmd (Jun 5, 2016)

I wouldn't be comfortable using a knife of this price. If it's an investment, I think it would probably do well, but I buy knives to use.


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## Lucretia (Jun 5, 2016)

Johnny.B.Good said:


> When and where did you acquire this tomato killer?



3 or 4 years ago on ebay. I like it a lot and am glad I have it. I don't know that I'd invest in a gyuto at this point with the prices what they are. There are custion makers that I'd much rather buy from.


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## jaybett (Jun 6, 2016)

TheDispossessed said:


> I just don't get the handle thing.....



Whats to get? It's by far the most comfortable western handle out there. 

Jay


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## labor of love (Jun 6, 2016)

toddnmd said:


> I wouldn't be comfortable using a knife of this price. If it's an investment, I think it would probably do well, but I buy knives to use.


Right. It would look nice framed on a wall somewhere in the east wing of my mansion. I could even bring out on my yacht on weekends.


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## chefcomesback (Jun 6, 2016)

Every time a high valued knife goes for sale the same old argument starts , " for that much money I would have X , y, a car , a bike etc . We all are aware you can get a decent knife for 300-500 . And most of us get the idea a $3000-5000 knife doesn't cut 10 times better .
What drives these prices are simple supply and demand ( Just like with the Kramer )
These knives are made by a very skilled craftsman just before his retirement and will not be produced again . He used his finest Damascus and very rare and expensive steel , these factors make the price higher even when they were available 5-6 years ago . 
Highly sought after yes , hyped no .


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## jklip13 (Jun 6, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> also in canada KD stands for "kraft dinner" like "macaroni and cheese" as it is called in america. so there's that too.



I always found this funny


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## kostantinos (Jun 6, 2016)

Ok the older ones in the forums remember these knifes with Lust . In 2007-2008 they where as much as out of budget as they are now for a young cook back then even though i remember prices being high for my budget (didn't expect he was gonna stop making knife). Anyway Dave has said it pretty well and described it accurately. Its a knife made out of Cowry X steel that is buttery smooth in the stones and keeps a toothy edge for a long time actually .

In the process these knifes became rare and impossible to find initially making their price jump by 3 times almost. The hattori Kd was the original "Kramer" to me before kramer and it was the first knife i know that received as much Lust factor from everyone. I know that know it seems weird but in 2006-2007 there where not as many makers out there except Carter that received as much attention and anything coming out of japan was considered prime . I don't want to remind the ancient history on Moritakas and their performance ups and downs etc but that was the first time someone has outspoken against the quality of F&F a japanese maker per se to my knowledge .


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## _PixelNinja (Jun 6, 2016)

jaybett said:


> Whats to get? It's by far the most comfortable western handle out there.
> 
> Jay


I might be mistaken but I think he is referring to flashy handles being popular.


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## Mute-on (Jun 6, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> Every time a high valued knife goes for sale the same old argument starts , " for that much money I would have X , y, a car , a bike etc . We all are aware you can get a decent knife for 300-500 . And most of us get the idea a $3000-5000 knife doesn't cut 10 times better .
> What drives these prices are simple supply and demand ( Just like with the Kramer )
> These knives are made by a very skilled craftsman just before his retirement and will not be produced again . He used his finest Damascus and very rare and expensive steel , these factors make the price higher even when they were available 5-6 years ago .
> Highly sought after yes , hyped no .



Well said, Mert.


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## labor of love (Jun 6, 2016)

Thanks for all the comments so far. The reason I started this thread was because I was honestly curious if there was something special about the KD line that wasn't already obvious. I no problem with people spending big bucks to chase after rare knives if that's what they fancy. I know that I'm quite comfortable in my $250-450 budget per knife purchase because I think it's unlikely there is any performance improvements to be gained by paying any more than that. Japan seems to be filled with highly experienced, skilled craftsman who have perfected their techniques, most of which produce knives in the sub $500 category. I'll continue to chase value and performance and keep my disregard for things like supply and demand and scarcity.


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## supersayan3 (Jun 6, 2016)

One important factor for the value, not the price, of this knife, as I read here, is that Cowry-X sharpens easy, and you can find no more this steel or Hattori to do it right, while many users of ZDP-189 say that it is difficult to sharpen(I don't remember by which makers)


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## TheDispossessed (Jun 6, 2016)

Yes.
I can't deal with flashy handles.


_PixelNinja said:


> I might be mistaken but I think he is referring to flashy handles being popular.


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## labor of love (Jun 6, 2016)

supersayan3 said:


> One important factor for the value, not the price, of this knife, as I read here, is that Cowry-X sharpens easy, and you can find no more this steel or Hattori to do it right, while many users of ZDP-189 say that it is difficult to sharpen(I don't remember by which makers)



People say a lot of stuff on the forums. Sometimes just to protect their investment. It's up to you to decide who should be trusted.


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## antbanks (Jun 6, 2016)

To each his own, simple as that.


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## j22582536 (Jun 6, 2016)

supersayan3 said:


> One important factor for the value, not the price, of this knife, as I read here, is that Cowry-X sharpens easy, and you can find no more this steel or Hattori to do it right, while many users of ZDP-189 say that it is difficult to sharpen(I don't remember by which makers)



Yup I've heard that zdp-189 is much hard to sharpen, never owned one before so I'm not sure whether it is true or not. 

By the way here is an off topic question, I'm thinking of getting a M390 steel knife, anyone familiar with this particular steel?


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 6, 2016)

j22582536 said:


> Yup I've heard that zdp-189 is much hard to sharpen, never owned one before so I'm not sure whether it is true or not



Never has to sharpen my ZDP knives (Sukenari or Miyabi) but recall Kippington said it isn't that bad. Murray Carter would have you believe otherwise but I guess that's because he uses king stones


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## LucasFur (Jun 10, 2016)

zdp isnt really that hard to sharpen on my Asagi stone. admittedly its no carter white 1. but its stainless and harder and on my naniwa's its a little more of a pain but really i touch up on the jnat. and almost never fully sharpen.


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## _PixelNinja (Jun 10, 2016)

TheDispossessed said:


> Yes.
> I can't deal with flashy handles.


That would make the two of us.


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## zerafa (Jun 17, 2016)

For most of us that have KDs, we just shut up and use them (or store them). I was lucky enough to find 4 (2x240, 1x270, and 135 petty)... I use one of the 240s, and have kept the other three in the gun safe, never been used or sharpened. I find the cowry-x long edge retention, easy to sharpen, and very pretty to use. I have some ZDP knives which have just taken more time to learn. 

From a use perspective, my KD performs very close to my Itchimoji tool steel knife, and my Hirimoto blue steel (when then have just been sharpened), edge retention on the KD is un-real. 

The hattori forum knives are very good all rounders, and have given several of these to friends and family. Also travel with a 210 and a petty.... 

My un-used KDs could be for sold, but i have un-reasonable expectations.... i think i have the last 270 ever made. there are no marking serial numbers so impossible to prove...

The other part of the rarity, is that few people will part with one of these as they know that they are un-replaceable, pretty much at any cost. So no one is willing to sell....


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## spoiledbroth (Jun 18, 2016)

the kd has a flashy handle?


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## _PixelNinja (Jun 18, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> the kd has a flashy handle?


No. That's the point; the focus is on the blade.


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## daveb (Jun 18, 2016)

I think that was in jest.


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## drawman623 (Jun 19, 2016)

zerafa said:


> For most of us that have KDs, we just shut up and use them (or store them). I edge retention on the KD is un-real.
> 
> i think i have the last 270 ever made. there are no marking serial numbers so impossible to prove...
> 
> The other part of the rarity, is that few people will part with one of these as they know that they are un-replaceable, pretty much at any cost. So no one is willing to sell....



I have an unused 270 from the last batch. I display the knife and savor its beauty often. I view using it like selling it...I'll only have something like this once. I have plenty of fine knives to use. This one will remain unused until the time feels right, or until selling it makes sense. Right now it is about sentimental appreciation, and a bit of awe to consider a life so dedicated to excellence.


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## HPoirot (Jun 26, 2016)

Well, how often to do you get to say your knife was made by Hattori (Hanzo)?


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## miccro (Jun 27, 2016)

HPoirot said:


> Well, how often to do you get to say your knife was made by Hattori (Hanzo)?



Not the same


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## Moooza (Dec 22, 2016)

Old thread I know, but any chance anyone who speaks Russian could check if this site is legit and they have stock?
http://japan-knives.ru/nozhi_dlya_kuhni/hattori/podrazdel_3/


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## Brucewml (Dec 22, 2016)

They do sell some of the knife showing on the website. But the Hattori are all gone. They didin't change on the website. Lol


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## Godslayer (Dec 22, 2016)

LMAO about 5k usd for a 270 over 2k for a petty


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## Brucewml (Dec 22, 2016)

Lol some people would spend the kind of money on that. Lol


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## milkbaby (Dec 23, 2016)

It's a collectors item and prices are now based on irrational supply and demand issues... it just takes one person willing to pay whatever price...


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## Moooza (Dec 23, 2016)

Why don't the hunting knives command the same prices?


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## labor of love (Dec 23, 2016)

Moooza said:


> Why don't the hunting knives command the same prices?



My guess is that hunting knife collectors actually use the knives they purchase.


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## daveb (Dec 23, 2016)

Wrong guess - minus 5

At the collector end I doubt many of them ever see the inside of a deer.


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## tienowen (Dec 23, 2016)

Korin sale NENOHI KEYAKI KENGATA YANAGI as same steel and the price cheaper then gyuto, I just not sure the same blacksmith. 
http://korin.com/HNE-KYKY-EE-330?sc=27&category=280049


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## milkbaby (Dec 23, 2016)

Didn't he make a huge amount of hunting knives? I'm just guessing they are not as rare.


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## Brucewml (Dec 23, 2016)

Be honestly I feel compared shigefusa kato and hattori. Hattori wasn't that great smiths.


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## Jkts (Dec 23, 2016)

Hattori is not a traditional kitchen knife maker- he had a great style with fighting and hunting knives-I still like and use the fh series- but over the years my tastes evolved to more the traditional styles...


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## Brucewml (Dec 23, 2016)

In my mind. The shigefusa western is one of highest standard. Cause the handle and blade is one piece. Lol


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## chinacats (Dec 24, 2016)

I believe my old Henckels are like you describe and they kInda' suck.


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## Brucewml (Dec 24, 2016)

Lol hahahah they are different. Shigefusa is forged by hand in to one piece include bolster. But heckle is cut from one steel. And just welding the bolster to the blade. So that just cheap labor.


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## chinacats (Dec 24, 2016)

Since this thread is about Hattori, I'll just add that Shiges and Hattoris are both over-rated imo...and I too would prefer a Shig but with rat tail tang w/ Shig ho wood handle vs super small handled (read uncomfortable) western style.


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