# 210 Gyuto: Masamoto VG, MAC Pro, Gesshin, or keep it simple with Tojiro?



## gregcss (Sep 15, 2016)

Hello,

I have a moderate set of calphalon knives of which I only use the 8" chef and 8" slicer and are about 12 years old. There is nothing wrong with them but looking for a change. I recently started sharpening them with an edge pro and really improved their cutting ability.

Getting a sharpening process was a prerequisite for me before looking at Japanese knives. I am looking for a 210mm Gyuto that is not hard to sharpen but has good edge retention. I think narrowed it down to a Masamoto VG, possibly MAC but they're a bit heavier and from what I read better can be had for the money. I stumbled upon Gesshin Uraku on the threads here and that is an option too. I prefer to buy one nicer knife now and not get upgrade fever later. On the other hand I am sure Tojiro would be better than my current knives and work well for my needs.

I am looking for recommendations, suggestions, etc.

Thanks in advance.

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*LOCATION
What country are you in?*
US

*KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in *
Gyuto

*Are you right or left handed?*
Right

*Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?*
I have not tried Japanese handle but am interested, so either.

*What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?*
210mm

*Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)*
Yes

*What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?*
$160

*KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?*
Home

*What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for *
Slicing, chopping, some mincing of vegetable and fruit. Minimal meat cutting.

*Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? *
Handle grip (hammer grip with thumb on top pointed at tip)

*What cutting motions do you primarily use? *
Rock, Slice, Chop

*Comfort *
Lighter weight and comfortable in the hand.


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## GeneH (Sep 15, 2016)

I just went through this looking for a stainless gyuto for a gift. Came up with Gesshin Uraku and Gonbie AUS-10. A 210mm is about $145. Ordered a 240 Gonbei last night. I think it will be a more satisfying steel than my Tojiro DP.


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## gregcss (Sep 15, 2016)

Not sure how to edit my first post. My grip is hammer grip - not what I indicated in first post.


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## daveb (Sep 15, 2016)

Well, the first thing to change is your grip - try using a pinch grip on your knife. It may feel awkward (different) at first but you should soon realize it's more comfortable, gives you greater control of the knife and is considerably less fatiguing than the hammer grip. 

Then buy the Uraku. Or a Tanaka VG-10 from Knives and Stones. I've sharpened enough Calphalon to know your are in for a world of difference. 

Ewwwww


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## gregcss (Sep 15, 2016)

Gene, Dave,
Thanks for the input. I did a dry run of pinch grip and it felt nice. I will start using this going forward to see how it goes.


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## richard (Sep 16, 2016)

I've used both, and I wouldn't say the Mac Pro is heavier than the Masamoto VG. Should be pretty little difference at the 210 mm, and at the longer lengths, the Mac Pro is definitely lighter (maybe you've mixed up the Mac Pro with the Mac Ultimate?) Anyway the Mac Pro has a slimmer handle, and the Masamoto has a beefy one. Masamoto VG is also a taller blade. Both are good knives and have the qualities you are looking for, but both Masamoto and Mac command a bit of a price premium for their name.

For a few knife suggestions that have similar qualities and similar steel to the Masamoto VG and Mac Pro but are priced at a better value, you can take a look at some suggestions I gave to another forum poster on another recent thread (except replace 240 with 210). Quite good pricing on Amazon right now for the Masahiro and the Misono. In terms of upgrade-proofing, these are intermediate to pro level knives though they are still reasonably suitable for people new to Japanese knives. Unless you get bitten by the bug for very high levels of performance and edge retention, and want to get into trying powder steels, white #1 and #2, super blue (i.e. this would be going deep down the rabbit hole), you wouldn't have very compelling reasons for needing to upgrade IMHO.

I will say that Misono gyutos at the 210 mm size are very light (possibly a bit too light if it is your only and main gyuto) and are quite short (height-wise not length), and wouldn't be my top suggestion unless a user is looking specifically for that kind of feel and profile from a 210 mm gyuto (basically it's like a taller 210 mm suji). In which case the Masahiro or the Gesshin Stainless is probably a better route. Similar to the Masamoto VG 210 mm, they weigh in at just over 6 oz (approx 175 g), and I personally feel that is a very nice weight (on the lighter side, but with just enough heft and not too light) for a Western handle gyuto.

If you want to go with a Japanese handle, will second Dave's suggestion of the Uraku or Tanaka (I'm presuming he meant the Tanaka VG10 Nashiji). As you may have already read, VG-10 has a bit of a reputation with some users on this forum for being a bit more difficult to deburr though (personally I don't really mind, but maybe it's because I'm quite used to it and started out sharpening knives that were VG-10).


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## osakajoe (Sep 16, 2016)

I use a hammer grip if using Japanese D shaped handle. If your knife is sharp and wrist relaxed and limber, don't get much fatigue. Have had lots of Japanese chefs show me and tell me they can cut all day long without fatigue. However it's not as fast as your Pinch grip.

Do you have stones for sharpening? Macs have softer steel (8A) than vg10


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## richard (Sep 16, 2016)

We've talked about this a bit in some other threads, but I've been thinking that I think the term hammer grip has the connotation of being a beginner or less well-trained technique by conventional Western schools of culinary thought. This page below is one example of what I mean.

http://www.wikihow.com/Hold-a-Knife

But in the past few years, I've watched many videos of Japanese chefs doing very skillful cutting similar to Joe describes above and with different variations (e.g. all fingers on handle, forefinger on spine, thumb of spine, some using pinch but less aggressively forward than commonly seen used by Western chefs, etc.), and I quickly realized pinch grip is not necessarily the be-all and end-all, and I've also since incorporated some of these grips and techniques to my cutting.

Also to add onto Joe's finishing comment, knives like the Masamoto VG, Masahiro MV, Misono 440, Gesshin stainless are in between 8A and VG10 in terms of hardness.


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## Matus (Sep 16, 2016)

Hi and welcome! 

Also have a look at Itinomonn StainLess in 210 (out of stock at the moment). Just within your budget and it comes with free DHL Express shipping.

You should also make budget for sharpening stones. EdgePro will indeed put a shawing sharp edge on your knives, but you need to sharpen more than just the cutting edge and you also want to develope the feel on how does the knife reacto to certain sharpening angles and technique. Already a cheap-ish combination stone like King 1000/6000 would be way better than EdgePro for this kind of knife.


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## gregcss (Sep 16, 2016)

osakajoe said:


> Do you have stones for sharpening?



Yes. I bought an edge pro a couple weeks ago and have two stock stones (which I read are not good) and a shapton glass 1k stone. I plan to get either the shapton glass 500 and 4k or 4k and 8k in the near term.


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## panda (Sep 16, 2016)

for a first knife masamoto vg is not a good choice, they are much harder to sharpen. mac pro is easier to sharpen and that is always a good choice, a cheaper option is togiharu inox http://korin.com/Togiharu-Inox-Steel-Gyutou?sc=27&category=280054


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## BlueWolf (Sep 16, 2016)

That ITINOMONN looks like a nice gyoto. You might want to play around with a D, Wa handle and western handle to see what you prefer.


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## gregcss (Sep 17, 2016)

Thanks everyone for your input. I do appreciate it. I consolidated a list of knives, based on feedback, that interest me. Without handling a Wa handle I dont know if I would like it or not.

Gesshin Uraku
Tanaka VG-10
MAC Pro
Masahiro MV


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## richard (Sep 17, 2016)

Yeah wa-style knives are very light in the handle, and lighter overall, but the resulting blade heavy feel may be quite different than what you are used to. Unless you feel yourself really drawn to the styling, maybe it is better to go with Western handle for your first Japanese knife. Between the Masahiro MV and the Mac Pro, the former can be purchased for half of what a Mac Pro costs, and I consider the Masahiro easily the equal (if not a slightly better) of the Mac. Mac has very standardized pricing, and they are priced on the higher end. Whereas there is a larger range of what you'll see Masahiro selling for depending on the seller or the particular model version. On Amazon you'll see a Masahiro MV 210 mm gyuto for under $100, and you'll also sell another version Masahiro MVH priced closer to the Mac. The blade is pretty much the same, but with different handle/bolster styling and different packaging (basically the MV/MVH are their high end stainless lines, and come in a few different variants). If you go with the Masahiro, you'll save yourself quite a bit of change that you can use for buying stones or put towards a 240 mm down the road.


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## gregcss (Sep 18, 2016)

richard said:


> Yeah wa-style knives are very light in the handle, and lighter overall, but the resulting blade heavy feel may be quite different than what you are used to. Unless you feel yourself really drawn to the styling, maybe it is better to go with Western handle for your first Japanese knife. Between the Masahiro MV and the Mac Pro, the former can be purchased for half of what a Mac Pro costs, and I consider the Masahiro easily the equal (if not a slightly better) of the Mac. Mac has very standardized pricing, and they are priced on the higher end. Whereas there is a larger range of what you'll see Masahiro selling for depending on the seller or the particular model version. On Amazon you'll see a Masahiro MV 210 mm gyuto for under $100, and you'll also sell another version Masahiro MVH priced closer to the Mac. The blade is pretty much the same, but with different handle/bolster styling and different packaging (basically the MV/MVH are their high end stainless lines, and come in a few different variants). If you go with the Masahiro, you'll save yourself quite a bit of change that you can use for buying stones or put towards a 240 mm down the road.



I found the MV for $92 on Amazon and MV-H for $130 at Sointu, both with free shipping. You mentioned the differences between them above, but I also read the MV-H is lighter (not that this is a plus or minus).


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## richard (Sep 18, 2016)

Yeah that one will be a tad lighter due to the smaller, oval-ish handle with a hidden tang, but there won't be a very big weight difference. Also found this listing on Amazon for the oval handle version Masahiro MV if you prefer that one. So there are two lines called Masahiro MV, but the full tang, traditional Western handle one is model 13711 and the oval handle is 14811 (the MV-H is 14911). 14811 and 14911 are practically identical, although a person here with a lot of experience with multiple knives from Masahiro says the finished edge is a even more asymmetric on the 148XX series (and can possibly steer a bit), but since you are using an edge pro you can easily take that down from 99/1 or 95/5 to closer to 80/20 if that really is the case. FYI the Masahiro that I tried out (MV-H 14911, and gifted to a friend) required a light touch up on the stones to deburr the edge, but since you have an edge pro, you'd be all set.


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## gregcss (Oct 19, 2016)

Just wanted to say thanks again for those that provided input. It certainly steered my in a good direction. All the knives suggested are nice and I am going to bump up to a gesshin ginga stainless. That is, if they are restocked.


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