# Honyaki prices bordering the absurd!



## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

Just saw a jikko white 3 oil quench 240 gyuto Honyaki priced at 1700! That’s insane! Question, does anyone else thinks this is completely nuts? Holy crap!


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## Bensbites (Apr 22, 2019)

It’s a supply and demand marketplace.


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## Godslayer (Apr 22, 2019)

It's expensive, would I pay $1700 for a 240 oil quenched honyaki.... No, are there people who will, yes. I imagine we will see a pretty decent jump in honyaki pricing once Yoshikazu ikeda retires, there aren't many Smith's producing the volume of honyakis the market demands. I've seen a +/- 30% increase in honyaki pricing in the last two years. Also Sakai Jikko like nehoni tends to be in my opinion over priced because they can get away with it.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

Caveat emptor! Said knife a couple years ago 500! Pay up Sucka!


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 22, 2019)

Guess you haven't been following the crazy prices Rolex are going for these days on secondary market. Its all down to supply and demand. I did notice Maksim dropped the list price of his Jikko/'Shiraki' honyakis 20%. Guess he wasn't seeing the sales he expected and had to adjust prices accordingly. The 15% additional sale price reduction to about $850 dropped them into the realms of acceptability for me. Anything above that demands a better handle than burnt chestnut IMO.


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## Panamapeet (Apr 22, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Guess you haven't been following the crazy prices Rolex are going for these days on secondary market. Its all down to supply and demand. I did notice Maksim dropped the list price of his Jikko/'Shiraki' honyakis 20%. Guess he wasn't seeing the sales he expected and had to adjust prices accordingly. The 15% additional sale price reduction to about $850 dropped them into the realms of acceptability for me. Anything above that demands a better handle than burnt chestnut IMO.



What’s wrong with burnt chestnut?


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Guess you haven't been following the crazy prices Rolex are going for these days on secondary market. Its all down to supply and demand. I did notice Maksim dropped the list price of his Jikko/'Shiraki' honyakis 20%. Guess he wasn't seeing the sales he expected and had to adjust prices accordingly. The 15% additional sale price reduction to about $850 dropped them into the realms of acceptability for me. Anything above that demands a better handle than burnt chestnut IMO.


 
Hmmmm, have a few old beat up Rolex’s in my drawer, maybe I should look into that. Haven’t worn a watch in 20 years! Maybe my antique sundial is worth a mint as well. Jikko Shiraki hamono Honyakis are made by his apprentices now. No interest in Shiraki anything these days. Now to look into those Rolex’s!


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## ian (Apr 22, 2019)

Spipet said:


> What’s wrong with burnt chestnut?



Seriously. I wish every handle I had was burnt chestnut.


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## esoo (Apr 22, 2019)

You can get an oil quench honyaki for $275.
https://www.aframestokyo.com/tesshu...-240mm-blue-i-steel--japanese-chef-kn240.html

From what I've been able read, they need some work, but the steel is apparently worth it. If it were only a little taller at the heel.

As for the rest, they are way too rich for my blood. Anything over $350USD is out of my range when I consider exchange to local currency.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

esoo said:


> You can get an oil quench honyaki for $275.
> https://www.aframestokyo.com/tesshu...-240mm-blue-i-steel--japanese-chef-kn240.html
> 
> From what I've been able read, they need some work, but the steel is apparently worth it. If it were only a little taller at the heel.
> ...



Ha Ha! Those knives are not differentially hardened and have no hamon. They have been around for a long time, sold by many resellers. A few people picked these up 4-5 years ago and said they were horribly unfinished.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 22, 2019)

Spipet said:


> What’s wrong with burnt chestnut?


Well for one think its light pushing the balance point forward on the blade. OK if you enjoy forwarded weighted blades. Personally I like it to be at the pinch grip.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 22, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Hmmmm, have a few old beat up Rolex’s in my drawer, maybe I should look into that. Haven’t worn a watch in 20 years! Maybe my antique sundial is worth a mint as well. Jikko Shiraki hamono Honyakis are made by his apprentices now. No interest in Shiraki anything these days. Now to look into those Rolex’s!


Beat up is all the rage. A guy recently bought a vintage Rolex 5513 for $2.50 in a thrift store. Thing was beat up really bad. He sold it for $6500 on Ebay last week with some question mark over its authenticity. Turns out its genuine and worth nowadays about $10K in its beat up state. I'd be running to that drawer.......


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Beat up is all the rage. A guy recently bought a vintage Rolex 5513 for $2.50 in a thrift store. Thing was beat up really bad. He sold it for $6500 on Ebay last week with some question mark over its authenticity. Turns out its genuine and worth nowadays about $10K in its beat up state. I'd be running to that drawer.......



What’s this POS worth?


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## Barmoley (Apr 22, 2019)

I've been trying to figure out what the performance benefit of differential heat treating is for smaller blades such as kitchen knives. I get the benefit in swords, etc. So taking visual appeal out of the equation, is there something else, how's honyaki with 65 hrc edge better than the same steel mono at 65 hrc? Is it the higher failure rate in heat treat that make honyaki more expensive than mono? It also seems that some western makers don't necessarily charge much more for honyaki. Would a mono blade be more fragile in a kitchen knife vs a honyaki in the same steel if they were both at the same hardness?


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## Bensbites (Apr 22, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Beat up is all the rage. A guy recently bought a vintage Rolex 5513 for $2.50 in a thrift store. Thing was beat up really bad. He sold it for $6500 on Ebay last week with some question mark over its authenticity. Turns out its genuine and worth nowadays about $10K in its beat up state. I'd be running to that drawer.......


Have you seen the videos of “production run distressed jeans”. They slide them over an ironing board and hit them with a belt sander. Triple the price.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 22, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I've been trying to figure out what the performance benefit of differential heat treating is for smaller blades such as kitchen knives. I get the benefit in swords, etc. So taking visual appeal out of the equation, is there something else, how's honyaki with 65 hrc edge better than the same steel mono at 65 hrc?


I'm curious about this too. Sure look purdy but any real world advantage? I'm guessing little if any. DiffHT on a sword....whole other ball game.

I hear for some makers the failure rate can be as high as 70% for honyaki HT. That can be down to a multitude of factors though from inexperience, steel type/formulation being less than optimal etc.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 22, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> View attachment 52118
> 
> 
> What’s this POS worth?


I suggest you post this on the Rolex Forum vintage subsection. They can give you a full appraisal. I'm not into Rolex, vintage or modern.


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## labor of love (Apr 22, 2019)

Yes, if anyone has one of those terribly overpriced JNS honyakis I’ll gladly take it off your hands.
Atleast shirakis apprentices makes true edge length 240mm Honyakis!


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

White 3 oil quench failure rate not high compared to water quench.


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## chinacats (Apr 22, 2019)

Seems all but very few honyaki are too short on the heel for my taste.

As to cost, the pretty/wavy line drives demand


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 22, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Yes, if anyone has one of those terribly overpriced JNS honyakis I’ll gladly take it off your hands.
> Atleast shirakis apprentices makes true edge length 240mm Honyakis!


Actually they are a little oversized. 240's have a 244 edge length and 54 tall at the heel.


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## labor of love (Apr 22, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Actually they are a little oversized. 240's have a 244 edge length and 54 tall at the heel.


Even better


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 22, 2019)

Yes, I'm tempted to get one too. I prefer oversized 210's. Just waiting for some feedback from early adopters.... and another JNS sale.


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## ACHiPo (Apr 22, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> View attachment 52118
> 
> 
> What’s this POS worth?


I suggest you check out the classified sections of these sites. Pretty fair market-based pricing (ie not jewelry store mark ups, but no screaming bargains either).
https://www.rolexforums.com/index.php
https://forums.watchuseek.com/forum.php


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## WildBoar (Apr 22, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> What’s this POS worth?


I don't really follow Rolex, but the Omega forum I am on has had some like this typically listed in the $1k - $2k range. Datejusts are not nearly as popular as the old subs and daytonas, so they do not command the $20k - $200k sales prices.


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## bahamaroot (Apr 22, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> ...Jikko Shiraki hamono Honyakis are made by his apprentices now. No interest in Shiraki anything these days...


Says who?

I don't own any Honyakis, think they are all crazy overpriced, don't care who makes it.


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## panda (Apr 22, 2019)

kato and shigs going for nearly 1k, now that's absurd. 

i wish smiths would produce generic honyakis with straight non wavy hardening line with no mirror polish at a more reasonable price.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

panda said:


> kato and shigs going for nearly 1k, now that's absurd.
> 
> i wish smiths would produce generic honyakis with straight non wavy hardening line with no mirror polish at a more reasonable price.



You may be on to something there! Since I’m only buying sub 300 dollar knives now, that would good in my book. Knife makers take notice!


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## labor of love (Apr 22, 2019)

The handles that come with most honyakis these days aren’t fancy enough either. 
I need Atleast three different stabilized woods and 2 spacers otherwise it’s not up to par.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

WildBoar said:


> I don't really follow Rolex, but the Omega forum I am on has had some like this typically listed in the $1k - $2k range. Datejusts are not nearly as popular as the old subs and daytonas, so they do not command the $20k - $200k sales prices.


Guess it’s going back in the junk box! I know I have another somewhere, maybe better luck goes with that. My dad gave me his omega that’s unused, haven’t bothered to grab it yet. Had no idea watches were such a big thing.


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## Andrew (Apr 22, 2019)

I guess I missed the days when honyaki knives from known smiths could be found for relative bargains, so take what I'm about to say with some grain of salt...

Even at inflated prices, I find almost all Japanese knives to represent cost bargains compared with their western competitors. I fault neither for their pricing approaches, but find it somewhat funny that a honyaki from a smith who's been doing this work for decades is considered expensive at $1,700...


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## Barmoley (Apr 22, 2019)

panda said:


> kato and shigs going for nearly 1k, now that's absurd.
> 
> i wish smiths would produce generic honyakis with straight non wavy hardening line with no mirror polish at a more reasonable price.



But why, what is the benefit? If the benefit is only visual then what would be the point of a generic none wavy, none polished honyaki?

Not saying there isn't anything else, just can't think of anything and can't get an answer from anywhere.


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## labor of love (Apr 22, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> But why, what is the benefit? If the benefit is only visual then what would be the point of a generic none wavy, none polished honyaki?
> 
> Not saying there isn't anything else, just can't think of anything and can't get an answer from anywhere.


I like honyakis because they’re superior mono blades with higher hardness and often have cooler profiles than the $200-300 cheap Japanese mono counterparts. I like how diff hardening feels in use.
I don’t care about expensive mirror polishing or hamons or mt fuji blah blah blah.


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## labor of love (Apr 22, 2019)

I also don’t like that most honyakis seem to come with extravagant handles.


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## refcast (Apr 22, 2019)

Yeah, I've been looking for honyaki that have plain finishes and handles. A lot of the sakai honyaki have a different spine profile; they're more dropnose along the whole spine. the only one that I didn't see like that (that I can recall) is Ashi. There's a lot of self-built in hype features (mirror, ebony) that I don't like about the honyaki mythos, because those particular things don't contribute well to performance.


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## frank358fr (Apr 22, 2019)

1700 is really ridiculous for me to say the least.


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## panda (Apr 22, 2019)

i'll tell you this tho, if a masamoto hs popped up for 1700 i'd snatch it up in a heart beat.


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## chinacats (Apr 22, 2019)

Best feel on the board of any knife I've used was Salty's blue 2 Mizuno (honyaki). That said likely best value/dumbest sell of any blade I've owned wa the old JNS Singatirin (as i recall was ~400 usd.


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## panda (Apr 22, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Best feel on the board of any knife I've used was Salty's blue 2 Mizuno (honyaki). That said likely best value/dumbest sell of any blade I've owned wa the old JNS Singatirin (as i recall was ~400 usd.


jim i have a hiromoto honyaki i can pass on to you on the cheap

i miss my miz honyaki (white2) a lot. i will get another one eventually but custom length.


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## chinacats (Apr 22, 2019)

panda said:


> jim i have a hiromoto honyaki i can pass on to you on the cheap
> 
> i miss my miz honyaki (white2) a lot. i will get another one eventually but custom length.



Thanks man, i owned one (Hiromoto) and it just never clicked for me. I'm w/ you on the Mizuno (make mine white 2 and ~255 x 53). My next honyaki is going to have a feather on it


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## JayGee (Apr 22, 2019)

panda said:


> kato and shigs going for nearly 1k, now that's absurd.
> 
> i wish smiths would produce generic honyakis with straight non wavy hardening line with no mirror polish at a more reasonable price.



Yah - that was the Hiromoto... which was$480 or something at sale time. Killer knife too.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

panda said:


> i'll tell you this tho, if a masamoto hs popped up for 1700 i'd snatch it up in a heart beat.


Ha Ha! Those are like 5 figure knives now! I’d like to get my mits on one too!


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## osakajoe (Apr 22, 2019)

panda said:


> kato and shigs going for nearly 1k, now that's absurd.
> 
> i wish smiths would produce generic honyakis with straight non wavy hardening line with no mirror polish at a more reasonable price.



You wouldn’t see that much of a price drop. Getting a mirror finish done usually adds an extra $100 to the price. The hamon is the forgers preference and the cost are pretty much the same if it’s straight or not. 

Someone else already mentioned it before. Supply is higher and a lot of the Japanese blade-smiths are now old and don’t do as much or retired. 

Due to the timing and market when they would expect to take in apprentices they were competing with machine forged knives newly being produced out of places like Seki. Markets shifted to these cheaper knives and forgers and grinders had to work hard and sell cheaper. The Japanese business model at that time, and technically now, is that craftsman went through wholesalers who would try to drive the cost me down on the craftsman but then jack the sales price on their end. This means craftsman in no way could afford to take on apprentices. Essentially wholesalers are responsible for a lot of the top craftsman not passing on the skills. 

So today you see a lot demand for the same quality knives but now with not as many who can do the same work, especially for honyaki knives. This drives up prices. Coupled with recent increase in carbon steel prices you end up with much higher prices. And if you read above going through a wholesaler,such as Jikko, you can expect to see those prices.


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## Barmoley (Apr 22, 2019)

When you guys talk of honyaki you speak of specifically Japanese made differentially heat treated knives?

Not to say there is no difference in feel, but it is hard to believe that there is one on a hypothetically exactly the same knives with the only difference being one differentially heat treated and one fully heat treated to the same hardness as the edge of the first one.

I hope some makers can chime in. I've seen some honyaki where hamon was pretty high, close to the spine, so that most of the blade is hard steel at that point how making it fully hard be any different?

I get it that Japanese Smith's do honyaki as a separate item, so profiles and grinds might be different from regular knives, but if they weren't would there actually be a difference?


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 22, 2019)

Honyaki in my mind is a generic (Japanese) term for any differentially HT'ed blade, be they made in Japan or outside. I think only makers who have compared uniformally HT'ed monosteel with DH blades in the same steel, with the same edge hardness, will know if there are differences.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Yes, if anyone has one of those terribly overpriced JNS honyakis I’ll gladly take it off your hands.
> Atleast shirakis apprentices makes true edge length 240mm Honyakis!


How about the 600 dollar Tesshu Honyaki on BST?


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## labor of love (Apr 22, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> How about the 600 dollar Tesshu Honyaki on BST?


I’m a quite a stickler for my 240mm gyutos not running short in edge length otherwise I’d grab it.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

I’ll send you my knife stretcher, Ha! Ya, that was my Tesshu gripe, too small and too short.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 22, 2019)

osakajoe said:


> You wouldn’t see that much of a price drop. Getting a mirror finish done usually adds an extra $100 to the price. The hamon is the forgers preference and the cost are pretty much the same if it’s straight or not.
> 
> Someone else already mentioned it before. Supply is higher and a lot of the Japanese blade-smiths are now old and don’t do as much or retired.
> 
> ...



I wish someone would set up a Japanese Etsy type thing that would help the knife makers access a worldwide market and eliminate the middlemen or something like the western makers do and sell direct. I’m sure heads would roll though.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 22, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I’ll send you my knife stretcher, Ha! Ya, that was my Tesshu gripe, too small and too short.


You and Kevin have something in common.


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## labor of love (Apr 22, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I’ll send you my knife stretcher, Ha! Ya, that was my Tesshu gripe, too small and too short.


Well, that one is still like 52mm tall or so. It’s a solid deal, for the right person.


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## McMan (Apr 22, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Ha Ha! Those knives are not differentially hardened and have no hamon. They have been around for a long time, sold by many resellers. A few people picked these up 4-5 years ago and said they were horribly unfinished.


Mario re-furbed one way back when and reported a hamon--buried but there after etching--and differential hardening:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/takagi-gyuto-first-impressions.2940/page-2


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## Eloh (Apr 23, 2019)

Would like to see a double blind test for people who say they feel a difference between differentitially hardened and regular mono steel knives


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2019)

I said it. Maybe it’s the feel of a high hardness mono blade edge against a board that makes me feel this way and not the diff hardening. Then again, I’ve used high hardness mono non diff hardened blades and didn’t feel it. Maybe it’s just a matter of some sort of density in the steel. Who knows?
It’s something I can’t explain, I’m big enough to admit I may be mistaken.


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## refcast (Apr 23, 2019)

I bought one of those Takagi abura honyaki to try the steel. There are nicer steel out there. In terms of finish--its not that they're unfinished, it's that they're finished in a rustic manner and purpose. Which is to say, more mal-finished for our standards than un-finished. 

But they work in a manner what he's known for -- tough woodworking tools, specifically adzes. Basically like a kind of axe (but not exactly).

They are middle to heavy-middle weight behind the edge in thickness, but lightweight in the blade face. So the spine isn't the thickest part, the top of the bevel is.

For instance compared to watanabe blue honyaki steel . . . takagi was tougher, softer-feeling. Watanabe was sharper, hair poppingly. Watanabe felt harder in use and was harder in sharpening. Takagi felt actually around where the ginga white 2 is. Maybe even just barely slightly softer. 

More rustic than TF for sure. But no overgrinds!! Just a fat convex axe-kinda bevel. I mean, I was able to use it. . . but there are better knives and steel and grinds out there. So the "magical" honyaki steel is not to be found in this instance. It's just another different heat treat here.


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## osakajoe (Apr 23, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I wish someone would set up a Japanese Etsy type thing that would help the knife makers access a worldwide market and eliminate the middlemen or something like the western makers do and sell direct. I’m sure heads would roll though.



Then you have craftsman who turn into sales representatives and pass on all the making to the apprentices lowering the quality. You have people like Kurisaki who’s running around every where selling and promoting. You have to wonder who’s making his knives or most of them. 

Plus they deal with volume. Selling one here and there is not good business. If you stick to the well known knife retailers who don’t tell pirate tales old samurai fairytales about all their knives, you have generally gotten pretty close directly to the source as you can get.


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## rick alen (Apr 23, 2019)

With san-mai construction you can harden to anything you want I would think. So why a Honyaki in the first place?


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 23, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I said it. Maybe it’s the feel of a high hardness mono blade edge against a board that makes me feel this way and not the diff hardening. Then again, I’ve used high hardness mono non diff hardened blades and didn’t feel it. Maybe it’s just a matter of some sort of density in the steel. Who knows?
> It’s something I can’t explain, I’m big enough to admit I may be mistaken.



I think Honyakis have a different resonance than a San mai blade, but I’ve found handle wood species and fitment really bring an undescribable feel to Honyaki blades. When I changed over the handle from an ichi handle to an ebony that was epoxy fit vs beeswax on my Ittetsu Honyaki, it became the most resonant and Wonderful feeling knife I’ve ever used. The difference was huge. It’s kinda the way different tone woods effect the sound of guitars, for example on my les Paul’s a rosewood fret board a warm and rich tone vs say a ebony board which sounds far brighter and pronounced vs a maple fret board which I feel is the brightest and sparkiest. Subjective I know, but ya I agree that Honyakis mostly have a unique feel.


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## chinacats (Apr 23, 2019)

rick alen said:


> With san-mai construction you can harden to anything you want I would think. So why a Honyaki in the first place?



San mai makes a thud when it hits the board...feels dead imo.


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## Michi (Apr 23, 2019)

I don't understand why a honyaki would in principle be better than a mono-steel knife either. I get the aesthetics and the difficulty of creating them, but I don't see any in-principle difference.

I don't have a honyaki; even if I did, I probably couldn't draw any firm conclusions, unless I had the same knife as a honyaki and as a mono-steel. I do remember a video from Salty where he compared the normal KS to the honyaki version and said that there was little (if any) difference.


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## Bensbites (Apr 23, 2019)

Michi said:


> I don't understand why a honyaki would in principle be better than a mono-steel knife either. I get the aesthetics and the difficulty of creating them, but I don't see any in-principle difference.
> 
> I don't have a honyaki; even if I did, I probably couldn't draw any firm conclusions, unless I had the same knife as a honyaki and as a mono-steel. I do remember a video from Salty where he compared the normal KS to the honyaki version and said that there was little (if any) difference.




I have knife clients that own them out of respect for the smith and the highest level of skill to create the differentials hardened blades. No one will tell you they need them, but I would summarize it as functional art / hard to acquire.


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## Anton (Apr 23, 2019)

It's all perception isn't? 
A knife will perform differently based on so many factors: grip, hand size, balance, your ability to sharpen (xtra hard for a honyaki blade), cutting style, profile, and grind from knife to knife of the same maker, but there is also the value perception some need to have the big sticker price or rare factor to make it "feel better" on the boards, some just don't care. For me, it's not much about the "better" steel, HT, or hardness it's the whole package and level of detail put into the honyaki blades vs their mono counterparts of the same maker. I'll also argue it's a lot harder to get the most out of honyaki due to sharpening skill.


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## ashy2classy (Apr 23, 2019)

Eloh said:


> Would like to see a double blind test for people who say they feel a difference between differentitially hardened and regular mono steel knives



I felt a difference with my Ikeda white #3. I think Craig might be right that it's the hardness of the blade. But when I purchased the Ikeda I immediately felt a difference when the blade contacted the board. It felt more "solid" to me. Not sure how to describe it, but it was definitely there. I can't say I feel that way about every honyaki, however.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 23, 2019)

I feel the same resonant effect of san mai vs honyaki as blade contacts the board. Hard to describe but I feel some san mai are closer to the honyaki 'effect' than others. My TF Denka is a good case in point having this density that is closely analogous to properties of the honyaki. Maybe its the high HT of the core steel. Its not a weight thing either as the TF Denka 210 is only 172g. I'm sure there are a lot of variables that are contributing but unless you've tried a honyaki its hard to explain.


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## ian (Apr 23, 2019)

Those of you with experience: I see a lot of honyaki vs san mai comparisons in terms of feel. Is this really a san mai vs mono difference?

For some reason, I had it in my mind that the point of honyaki was to allow for higher hardness in a mono blade, that otherwise would be more fragile. Benefits of san mai, but without the mai. Is this wrong? This doesn’t seem to have been said above, assuming I’m not blind.


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## Barmoley (Apr 23, 2019)

ian said:


> Those of you with experience: I see a lot of honyaki vs san mai comparisons in terms of feel. Is this really a san mai vs mono difference?
> 
> For some reason, I had it in my mind that the point of honyaki was to allow for higher hardness in a mono blade, that otherwise would be more fragile. Benefits of san mai, but without the mai. Is this wrong? This doesn’t seem to have been said above, assuming I’m not blind.



Right, so that's the question I had mono vs mono. Is it that a fully hardened blade as hard as honyaki edge will be more fragile? Hard to believe in a kitchen knife, but possibly. I get it that Japanese smiths put more into honyaki so that honyaki are better knives potentially, but is it a case of tradition? What if they put as much effort into a fully hardened knife, would it be less? Or are there other practical reasons, for example, differentially heat treated knife is easier to straighten if it defforms during heat treat?

As far as feel on the board, I'd imagine that two knives of exactly same dimensions and construction fully or partially hard would feel the same. What Chicagohawkie said makes more sense to me, that different handle and attachment make more of a difference on resonance than partial vs full hard.

I've only tried western "honyaki" and they felt solid, but not more so than mono blades of similar dimensions and balance. I've also tried fully hard mono blades that were as hard as honyaki edges and they didn't shutter and seemed very durable. I am not a pro though, so my experience is limited.

So in my mind Japanese honyaki are better knives, because makers make them so, not because differential heat treat is superior in a kitchen knife. If that is the case, a big if, then having a honyaki without all the extra attention to detail and extra care doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


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## dwalker (Apr 23, 2019)

Clearly high hardness can be achieved with san mai (TF comes to mind) though it is often the case that a particular Smith's knife with steel x,y,or z is harder when it is honyaki. I don't know why that is the case. 

As far as feel goes, I thought it was BS until I've tried a few honyaki. I definately can tell the difference. I can't, however, differentiate between mono-steel and honyaki. They feel the same to me on the board. 

As far as performance goes, it is rare that one can compare an identical honyaki to a san mai knife from the same smith. The two knives are often ground and finished differently and sometimes by a different finisher all together. This, combined with the inherent differences in any hand made products from one sample to the next, make it impossible to say honyaki is better than san mai or monosteel. I have had two versions of the exact same knife, purchased from the same vendor, from the same batch perform very differently. 

I, for one, enjoy san mai, honyaki, and monosteel. They all have a place in my block. Back to the initial topic, the prices have gotten ridiculous and wait times are significantly increased.


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## valgard (Apr 23, 2019)

For me it's simple, l am not gonna try to find any extravagant reason. I like sanmai and honyaki. Most mono blades are boring to look at and there's nothing to polish.


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## panda (Apr 23, 2019)

i dont care about the why. japanese honyaki feel awesome in use. also dont care if it looks cool or not, i'm strictly in it for the function.


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2019)

The one knife that fooled me in the this regard is the Ginrei/52100 line. Just a mono blade(to my knowledge) but had the same kind of board feel that I got from using honyaki.
Maybe what I’m noticing is just the feel and feedback difference of traditional forged mono blade vs stock removal mono blade and diff harden has nothing to do with anything. Ginrei aren’t even high hardness blades. Still felt really great.
@Barmoley ?


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## tgfencer (Apr 23, 2019)

valgard said:


> For me it's simple, l am not gonna try to find any extravagant reason....Most mono blades are boring to look at and there's nothing to polish.



I agree. Not a huge honyaki fan myself, mostly because I don't get much enjoyment out of polishing them, but I understand why people like them, I just prefer high HRC san mai since it's more affordable.

As for honyaki prices, performance, mastersmith vs apprentices, value for money, etc, I'll be that annoying guy and just offer the classic philosophical riposte: it's all relative. Some of these variables you can control, most you can't. In the end, it's either worth it or it's not.




Anton said:


> I'll also argue it's a lot harder to get the most out of honyaki due to sharpening skill.



This. If it's not going to sit in a drawer, then the skill of the user and sharpener matters just as much, if not more, than the skill and quality of the maker over the lifetime of a knife.


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## Barmoley (Apr 23, 2019)

Discussing prices is boring and pointless, they are what they are. If more people want honyaki, fewer makers make them and they are harder and more involved to make then you get what you get.



panda said:


> i dont care about the why. japanese honyaki feel awesome in use. also dont care if it looks cool or not, i'm strictly in it for the function.



I care about the why.. Panda in your experience do Japanese honyaki feel different from the Western that are honyaki like? Different knives, profiles, grinds and such, but just curious.


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## Barmoley (Apr 23, 2019)

labor of love said:


> The one knife that fooled me in the this regard is the Ginrei/52100 line. Just a mono blade(to my knowledge) but had the same kind of board feel that I got from using honyaki.
> Maybe what I’m noticing is just the feel and feedback difference of traditional forged mono blade vs stock removal mono blade and diff harden has nothing to do with anything. Ginrei aren’t even high hardness blades. Still felt really great.
> @Barmoley ?



I had the same solid feel with his A2 knife I had and also less so with Tilman mono at 65HRC, but the difference, I am sure was due to balance and blade weight. That's what I am trying to figure out, if there is truly a difference or if we are fooling ourselves. I don't think you could feel the difference between forged or not, there is really no difference at all, all modern steel is forged at some point and forging it a little more would not change anything. Not questioning what you guys feel by the way, just trying to figure out what causes it.

Yes, who cares and all.... if it feels good it feels good... I've been driving an older car recently and it feels fast, it is not compared to the new, modern cars I have, not even close, but it feels fast. I don't race, so to me if it feels fast it is fast, I enjoy it, but I realize in absolute terms it is not fast in reality.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 23, 2019)

tgfencer said:


> I agree. Not a huge honyaki fan myself, mostly because I don't get much enjoyment out of polishing them


They're not all high polish. New Jikko/Shiraki and Togashi come to mind from Japan. And there are western makers who are leaving a brushed finish like Xerxes, Comet and Tansu. I prefer brushed for ease of maintenance and to minimize any stiction.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 23, 2019)

At this point it would be great to hear opinions from makers. If there are some benefits to be had from hard mono steel vs differentially hardened mono steel they can provide some insight. Perhaps there is higher failure rate taking mono steel to HRC 64-66.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 23, 2019)

agree with Panda, Japanese are the only honyakis. western honyakis that are made of pre forged steel stock to me, just are not honyakis.


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2019)

Okay, well stock removal blade feels quite different to me than a hammer forged or whatever one. Miles apart really.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 23, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> agree with Panda, Japanese are the only honyakis. western honyakis that are made of pre forged steel stock to me, just are not honyakis.


Edit: Japanese and Western makers are sourcing their steel from basically the same sources as stated by Barmoley. Some are forging their own san mai and some buy in prelaminated both in Japan and elsewhere. Same goes with steel used for honyaki. Don't think you can make a sweeping statement like this to differentiate Japanese from Western makers.


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## Barmoley (Apr 23, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> agree with Panda, Japanese are the only honyakis. western honyakis that are made of pre forged steel stock to me, just are not honyakis.



Unless Japanese are forging their blades from iron ore or sands or something, they are forging from pre-forged the same as western makers. Hitachi white, blue, whatever is pre-forged same way as all the modern steel when it is rolled.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 23, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Unless Japanese are forging their blades from iron ore or sands or something, they are forging from pre-forged the same as western makers. Hitachi white, blue, whatever is pre-forged same way as all the modern steel when it is rolled.


obviouosly stock removal material.


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## refcast (Apr 23, 2019)

Ginrei are edge quenched in oil though. Maybe there's just a sequence of heat treat/ forging steps in japanese forged mono steel that makes it nicer feeling to use.


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## inferno (Apr 23, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Okay, well stock removal blade feels quite different to me than a hammer forged or whatever one. Miles apart really.



Really?

Could it be that its the atoms from the smiths hammer that gets embedded in the glowing hot steel matrix, toughening it up, while it also captures the smiths very soul inside the finished blade?


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## Barmoley (Apr 23, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> obviouosly stock removal material.



Oh, you meant that stock removal deferentially treated blades are not honyaki to you, I misunderstood. That's fine, since many western makers also forge it was not clear to me.

It is very unlikely that there is an actual difference in how you get at the final result, all modern steel used for knives is forged at some point and all is ground at some point to get to the final product. Maybe @Larrin or other maker, metallurgist can tell us if you would be able to detect a difference using a high power microscope, but as far as I've read there is no difference in the end material or its mechanical properties.


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2019)

inferno said:


> Really?
> 
> Could it be that its the atoms from the smiths hammer that gets embedded in the glowing hot steel matrix, toughening it up, while it also captures the smiths very soul inside the finished blade?


I’m not sure everyone agrees with something I find to be pretty obvious.


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## panda (Apr 23, 2019)

inferno said:


> Really?
> 
> Could it be that its the atoms from the smiths hammer that gets embedded in the glowing hot steel matrix, toughening it up, while it also captures the smiths very soul inside the finished blade?


What the hell is this jibberish?


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## inferno (Apr 23, 2019)

panda said:


> What the hell is this jibberish?



Hey man I just tried to come up with highly scientific explanation as to why a blade made from steel forged at the steel plant and then ground to shape would feel different to a blade using steel forged at the steel plant and then additionally forged at the smith (and then ground to shape).


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> I had the same solid feel with his A2 knife I had and also less so with Tilman mono at 65HRC, but the difference, I am sure was due to balance and blade weight. That's what I am trying to figure out, if there is truly a difference or if we are fooling ourselves. I don't think you could feel the difference between forged or not, there is really no difference at all, all modern steel is forged at some point and forging it a little more would not change anything. Not questioning what you guys feel by the way, just trying to figure out what causes it.
> 
> Yes, who cares and all.... if it feels good it feels good... I've been driving an older car recently and it feels fast, it is not compared to the new, modern cars I have, not even close, but it feels fast. I don't race, so to me if it feels fast it is fast, I enjoy it, but I realize in absolute terms it is not fast in reality.


I never said some knives aren’t forged and some are. But there’s different processes, and surely there are pros and cons to the different processes, different results. Your this close to advocating we all just use farberware from here on out.


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## ian (Apr 23, 2019)

Don't knock farberware. It cuts like a dream.


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 23, 2019)

guess theres no point in hand forging knives. now that we've agrees upon that..........


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## Barmoley (Apr 23, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I never said some knives aren’t forged and some are. But there’s different processes, and surely there are pros and cons to the different processes, different results. Your this close to advocating we all just use farberware from here on out.



Oh not at all. I am not saying there is no difference or that you don't feel a difference or that there is no difference in the final product. I am saying that the process if done well doesn't matter and that you can arrive at excellent or crappy results with either process and that the differences you are feeling are not due to the process, but something else. Pros and cons of different processes exist as far as making of the knife is concerned, but don't exist for the end user and would not be detectable by the end user if both are done right. Basically, I am making an argument that the end user would not be able to tell how the knife was made from use if he didn't know before hand. I agree with @panda in the sense that it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you get there, but I am just interested in the details, steel, heat treat, the process, etc.


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## Barmoley (Apr 23, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> guess theres no point in hand forging knives. now that we've agrees upon that..........



For mono steel knives, you could say that. One reason could be you waste less steel hand forging vs stock removal.... It is also a lot of fun from what I hear, and a perfectly fine way to make stuff. 

For san mai or for pattern welding it is different, you won't easily find wrought cladded high carbon unless someone forged it or any other combination of cladding and core or all sorts of "damascus" patterns, etc.


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## ian (Apr 23, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> Oh not at all. I am not saying there is no difference or that you don't feel a difference or that there is no difference in the final product. I am saying that the process if done well doesn't matter and that you can arrive at excellent or crappy results with either process and that the differences you are feeling are not due to the process, but something else. Pros and cons of different processes exist as far as making of the knife is concerned, but don't exist for the end user and would not be detectable by the end user if both are done right. Basically, I am making an argument that the end user would not be able to tell how the knife was made from use if he didn't know before hand. I agree with @panda in the sense that it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you get there, but I am just interested in the details, steel, heat treat, the process, etc.



Yea, we're on the same page. I'd still love to hear some real theories about its functional benefits, and why it feels so good, just out of intellectual interest. (@inferno, perhaps the resonance is from the pieces of the smith's soul crying out in pain on contact with the cutting board?) 

Anyway, dem prices be high.


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## ACHiPo (Apr 23, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> I wish someone would set up a Japanese Etsy type thing that would help the knife makers access a worldwide market and eliminate the middlemen or something like the western makers do and sell direct. I’m sure heads would roll though.


You might try contacting one of the craftsman organizations like Takefu Knife Village (I believe there is something similar in Seki?). They sell their members' work and the prices are pretty reasonable based on my visit to Takefu (not a lot of Honyaki there--mostly stainless-clad san mai blades--but there were some).


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2019)

Still though, I’ve used very thin blades (ittetsu, hd, wakui, Carter, the 9,Kippington laser etc etc etc).
I would say all these knives do not feel the same on the board (cutting feedback and feeling).
I would also say all these knives are well made or Atleast in a way that is proper.
I like stock removal blades a lot. Infact I think they’re superior for sujihiki but that’s just my personal preference.
I’m pretty sure I’ll never confuse a stock removal blade for a hammer forged one. But I love it when I’m proven wrong and I don’t have all the answers.


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## valgard (Apr 23, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> agree with Panda, Japanese are the only honyakis. western honyakis that are made of pre forged steel stock to me, just are not honyakis.


This is incorrect, I know for a fact of western honyakis that are first forged to shape before HT.


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## Larrin (Apr 23, 2019)

The potential benefits of forging a blade to shape are pretty limited. The chances of making it worse are very real. The biggest reason to forge a blade is because you prefer to make them that way.


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## chinacats (Apr 23, 2019)

Thanks Larrin!


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 23, 2019)

valgard said:


> This is incorrect, I know for a fact of western honyakis that are first forged to shape before HT.


Smh! I’m referring to western knife makers who are using pre forged blanks. Stock removal Honyakis to me just aren’t traditional as they once were.


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## valgard (Apr 23, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> Smh! I’m referring to western knife makers who are using pre forged blanks. Stock removal Honyakis to me just aren’t traditional as they once were.


And I'm also referring to western knife makers.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 23, 2019)

Curious what people are referring to when they say pre forged blanks? Does this refer to shaped blanks that only require the bladesmith to HT and grind to shape and sharpen?


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## Chicagohawkie (Apr 23, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Curious what people are referring to when they say pre forged blanks? Does this refer to shaped blanks that only require the bladesmith to HT and grind to shape and sharpen?


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## valgard (Apr 23, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> View attachment 52235


https://www.instagram.com/p/Bn9ta64g7Gp/


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 23, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> View attachment 52235


Thanks. Well I can name at least 4 Western makers who aren't doing that to create differentially hardened honyaki's including Valgards reference.


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## Larrin (Apr 23, 2019)

The Japanese bladesmiths are also using “pre-forged” blanks. They’re just forging them some more.


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## Kippington (Apr 23, 2019)

ashy2classy said:


> ...when I purchased the Ikeda I immediately felt a difference when the blade contacted the board. It felt more "solid" to me. Not sure how to describe it, but it was definitely there. I can't say I feel that way about every honyaki, however.


For a long time I thought this was just a placebo effect on some users, but now I am not so sure...
With all the internal stretching and contracting going on during a differential quench, I'm now thinking there's more stress in the steel of a honyaki over a standard monosteel.




The effect could be similar to the tensioning of a scythe via hammer blows across the face, the point being to spread out material in certain places to increase rigidity:




If I'm correct, the internal stresses of a honyaki may be giving the steel a more solid feeling on the board, although it's just speculation at this point. I can't prove anything without the tools to take measurements.

__________

The most satisfying thing about forging (for me) is making a longer knife out of a shorter piece of metal.
Only 180mm left on that bar of steel for that 240mm gyuto? No problem!

There's something oddly rebellious about it...


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## Michi (Apr 23, 2019)

Found that video:


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 23, 2019)

Michi said:


> Found that video:



Funny enough I watched that vid a couple of nights ago. 

Fascinating thread here.


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## Nemo (Apr 23, 2019)

Kippington said:


> For a long time I thought this was just a placebo effect on some users, but now I am not so sure...
> With all the internal stretching and contracting going on during a differential quench, I'm now thinking there's more stress in the steel of a honyaki over a standard monosteel.
> 
> 
> ...



Now that is an intriguing idea.


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## Paraffin (Apr 23, 2019)

I have heard (mainly on this forum) that there is a noticeable difference in feel when cutting food product and on the board, with monosteel honyaki vs. clad steel. I can't verify that since I don't own a honyaki blade, but it's an interesting idea. 

One day I might test that. Fortunately, the main ones I would consider would be a Yoshikazu Ikeda honyaki 210mm gyuto or 240mm sujihiki, both still in the under-$1,000 USD category (if I don't wait too long). I'm curious, but not willing to spend over a grand to find out.


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2019)

Paraffin said:


> I have heard (mainly on this forum) that there is a noticeable difference in feel when cutting food product and on the board, with monosteel honyaki vs. clad steel. I can't verify that since I don't own a honyaki blade, but it's an interesting idea.
> 
> One day I might test that. Fortunately, the main ones I would consider would be a Yoshikazu Ikeda honyaki 210mm gyuto or 240mm sujihiki, both still in the under-$1,000 USD category (if I don't wait too long). I'm curious, but not willing to spend over a grand to find out.


On a budget and want a ikeda 210mm?
This guy is calling your name.
http://bernal-cutlery.shoplightspeed.com/2nd-hand-yoshikazu-ikeda-honyaki-210mm-gyuto-oil-q.html


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## chinacats (Apr 23, 2019)

labor of love said:


> On a budget and want a ikeda 210mm?
> This guy is calling your name.
> http://bernal-cutlery.shoplightspeed.com/2nd-hand-yoshikazu-ikeda-honyaki-210mm-gyuto-oil-q.html



Choil shot looks nice but unless it's an odd pic there is no distal taper. Kind of cool to see they sell 2nd hand blades.


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2019)

they also have a reduced miz honyaki.


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## chinacats (Apr 23, 2019)

Paraffin said:


> I have heard (mainly on this forum) that there is a noticeable difference in feel when cutting food product and on the board, with monosteel honyaki vs. clad steel. I can't verify that since I don't own a honyaki blade, but it's an interesting idea.
> 
> One day I might test that. Fortunately, the main ones I would consider would be a Yoshikazu Ikeda honyaki 210mm gyuto or 240mm sujihiki, both still in the under-$1,000 USD category (if I don't wait too long). I'm curious, but not willing to spend over a grand to find out.


You'll be just as likely to tell the difference in clad and monosteel which you can do for much less investment.


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## labor of love (Apr 23, 2019)

Michi said:


> Found that video:



It’s pretty eye opening that salty basically suggests at the close of the video to pass on the $1k honyaki and just get the KS. I wonder if he knows that they sell for much much more now.


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## Matus (Apr 24, 2019)

Kippington said:


> For a long time I thought this was just a placebo effect on some users, but now I am not so sure...
> With all the internal stretching and contracting going on during a differential quench, I'm now thinking there's more stress in the steel of a honyaki over a standard monosteel.
> 
> 
> ...



I agree that there will be stress (tenstion) converved in a honyaki blade and that may (must?) impact the resonant frequencies and thus how the knife 'feels' when hitting cutting board during cutting. It would be interesting to have two blades with 'identical' geometries and dimensions - one honyaki and one fully hardened - and compare how do they respond to different frequencies - that must be measurable with some home-grown setup in some manner. Sounds like a topic for Larrin 

Moving a bit away from honyaki - I am thinking that the stress induced via quench in sanmai blades also has a potential to create a blade that is stiffer than a monosteel would be. It is not a clear-cut case though, as there are blades that are super easy to bend (little difference in thickness of the hagane and thickness of the blade has large impact on the stiffness of the blade (on top of differences in used materials and HT)


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## LucasFur (Apr 24, 2019)

In regards to the tension of the steel... 
if you look at how Honyaki fail quenching ... to me it looks like they fail in tension on the hagane portion.

The question is not " is there tension in the blade or not" ... it's "does it affect the knife when it's so "short" like a chefs knife?"


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## Kippington (Apr 24, 2019)

LucasFur said:


> In regards to the tension of the steel...
> if you look at how Honyaki fail quenching ... to me it looks like they fail in tension on the hagane portion.


I'm not following, what is 'failing' here?


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## ashy2classy (Apr 24, 2019)

labor of love said:


> they also have a reduced miz honyaki.



I purchased that Mizuno then returned it. The handle is CRAZY heavy. Otherwise, it's a nice blade. Grind is a lot different than the blue #2 that I'm selling.


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## Barmoley (Apr 24, 2019)

Kippington said:


> For a long time I thought this was just a placebo effect on some users, but now I am not so sure...
> With all the internal stretching and contracting going on during a differential quench, I'm now thinking there's more stress in the steel of a honyaki over a standard monosteel.



Sounds plausible, but the question still remains if there is enough of a difference, even if it could be measured, for a human to feel. Not that you have the time, but you are in a perfect position to test this theory. You could make a 1095 honyaki and a 1095 fully hardened blade of similar profile, grind, etc or even fully hardened 52100, I doubt the steel actually makes a difference and compare the two blindly. If you say you can tell the difference and pick which one is which somewhat consistently, that would be good enough for me. Not a proper double blind study, but good enough for me. Maybe one day if you get super bored, the blades don't need to be handled or finished to a high level. The hardened part of the honyaki and the fully hard blade would have to be equally hard though.


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## LucasFur (Apr 24, 2019)

Kippington said:


> I'm not following, what is 'failing' here?


Nothing is failing in the video .... its only showing the reaction of the quench. But looking at other failed examples you can visualize the tension affect. 
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl04vBzgHLP/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
There is always the chance I know nothing... you have way more experience than I do.


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## Kippington (Apr 24, 2019)

LucasFur said:


> ...does it affect the knife when it's so "short" like a chefs knife?





Barmoley said:


> ...if there is enough of a difference, even if it could be measured, for a human to feel.


Let me put it this way - Untempered martensite is considered quite brittle, but breaking it with your bare hands - edge to spine - is nowhere as easy as you probably think. I'd very much need a large hammer to do it.
Despite this, many differentially hardened blades pull themselves apart within seconds along this axis, sometimes in multiple spots. So yes, I totally think the effect would be strong enough for a human to feel.

I could probably come up with a better example, but it's 2:30am here.


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## Barmoley (Apr 24, 2019)

Kippington said:


> Let me put it this way - Untempered martensite is considered quite brittle, but breaking it with your bare hands - spine to edge - is nowhere as easy as you might think.
> Despite this, many differentially hardened blades pull themselves apart within seconds along the Y axis. So yes, I totally think the effect would be strong enough for a human to feel.
> 
> I could probably come up with a better example, but it's 2:30am here.



Go to bed....not arguing, you might very well be right, but the example doesn't prove it, the blade pulling itself apart does not prove that you could tell the difference between honyaki and fully hardened mono of the same hardness as the hard part of the honyaki on the board. It does prove there are tension/compression, whatever forces and very strong ones at that. Anyway, it is all academic anyway until someone makes 2 similar blades


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## inferno (Apr 24, 2019)

I thought we were discussing if one could tell a difference between a "forged" honyaki vs a stock removal (also forged)?? Is it a new topic now?


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## chinacats (Apr 24, 2019)

inferno said:


> I thought we were discussing if one could tell a difference between a "forged" honyaki vs a stock removal (also forged)?? Is it a new topic now?



Yes and yes. You know how it works around here
Reference thread title if not clear


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## Barmoley (Apr 24, 2019)

All is fair when discussing price and its qualification as absurd. We all agree, that supply demand is part of it, but there appears to be a true performance benefit, if so the price might be justified or maybe even low. So in order to discuss the OP, we need to explore all the tangents....


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## M1k3 (Apr 24, 2019)

chinacats said:


> San mai makes a thud when it hits the board...feels dead imo.



Needs to be a solid thud. I quite like it. Maybe I'm weird. Or maybe you're the weird one?


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## labor of love (Apr 24, 2019)

San mai makes a “thud” and mono makes a “ting”. You can hear the ting in salty videos when he uses his KS. 
Then again thick mono likely doesn’t make that “ting” sound.
Just an observation.


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## inferno (Apr 24, 2019)

Best feeling knife i have ever felt on a board was the mac "pro" dimpled santoku. It just felt so solid and massive somehow, and indestructable. its cryoed aus8 at 60hrc or so.

it makes ting sound when played as an instrument only. Not in regular use imo.


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## labor of love (Apr 24, 2019)

My Mac doesn’t ting either. My theory has failed.


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## bryan03 (Apr 24, 2019)

my English is too poor to speak in this thread , but we really need a good English metallurgist here....


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## labor of love (Apr 24, 2019)

bryan03 said:


> my English is too poor to speak in this thread , but we really need a good English metallurgist here....


I agree, you hardly make sense when you comment.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 24, 2019)

Mon dieu


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## panda (Apr 24, 2019)

My thing tings, and my.other thing dongs.


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## bryan03 (Apr 24, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Mon dieu



dieu n'a rien a voir a avec ça


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## labor of love (Apr 24, 2019)

This is all I hear


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## inferno (Apr 24, 2019)

bryan03 said:


> my English is too poor to speak in this thread , but we really need a good English metallurgist here....



I understand english. would that help?


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## CoteRotie (Apr 24, 2019)

I'm not a metallurgist, but I am an engineer- My take is that the fundamental resonant frequency and first few modes of a honyaki and a san-mai knife of identical dimensions all-around should be the same. 

What could be different, and maybe very different is the damping factor, and as a secondary effect some non-linear harmonic effects.

However that would be evident in impulses to the side of the knife. The stiffness from an edge-to-board impulse (like chopping) is so high that I can't see how the resulting response could be noticeably different. It would be interesting to put an accelerometer on the two and measure the impulse response to see.

Or maybe that's all B.S. and I have no idea what I'm talking about


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## chinacats (Apr 24, 2019)

A thick mono can also ting; like my old nogent Sab... well it's thick in the spine


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## chinacats (Apr 24, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> Needs to be a solid thud. I quite like it. Maybe I'm weird. Or maybe you're the weird one?



Some of my favorite knives are san-mai but i go mono when it's an option.


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## labor of love (Apr 24, 2019)

chinacats said:


> Some of my favorite knives are san-mai but i go mono when it's an option.


+1


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## Blom (May 1, 2019)

Oil quenched White 3 honyaki?
That feels like buying a Ferrari with an old Volvo engine to me[emoji15]
All white steel need a super fast quench and the very best way is water, allways.


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## inferno (May 1, 2019)

like function!


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## bonody (Jan 29, 2021)

Sorry to necropost but is this the original knife in question?


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## bonody (Jan 29, 2021)

labor of love said:


> Well my story has to do w too good to be true Maxim discounted prices on gyutos (not Tanaka but shiraki).
> Grind was a total mess.





Matus said:


> Do you mean the Jikko Honyaki?





labor of love said:


> Yes.



Follow up to that, would @labor of love and @Matus be discussing the aforementioned knife in this other thread?


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 29, 2021)

bonody said:


> Sorry to necropost but is this the original knife in question?


Thats a TOTAL bargain. You could be paying $3K+









JIKKO cutlery Genuine Honyaki White Mirror Surface Mt. Fuji Beef Sword 210mm A99 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for JIKKO cutlery Genuine Honyaki White Mirror Surface Mt. Fuji Beef Sword 210mm A99 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## Matus (Jan 29, 2021)

bonody said:


> Follow up to that, would @labor of love and @Matus be discussing the aforementioned knife in this other thread?


I don't quite follow your question. You quoted me from an another thread where (unless I am mistaken) the Jikko honyaki by JNS was mentioned. Could you maybe rephrase your question with a little more clarity?


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## bonody (Jan 29, 2021)

Matus said:


> I don't quite follow your question. You quoted me from an another thread where (unless I am mistaken) the Jikko honyaki by JNS was mentioned. Could you maybe rephrase your question with a little more clarity?



Yeah, sorry about that. Basically I was trying to gather more information on the Jikko Honyaki here.
I wanted to see if this knife is the topic of discussion for the original post on this thread.

I also wanted to see if you and @labor of love were referring to it in the Tanaka Yoshikazu JNS thread. I figured your conversation in that thread was derailing from the original topic and quoted your comments into this thread because I thought it would be more relevant to the discussion here.

Of course, all of this is moot if the knife I am trying to learn about is not in anyway related to this thread or your conversation with labor of love from the Y Tanaka-JNS thread.

EDIT: basically, does the Jikko Honyaki I linked have grind issues and is it overpriced?


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## bonody (Jan 29, 2021)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Thats a TOTAL bargain. You could be paying $3K+



*"Worldwide... from TOKYO !"*


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## Corradobrit1 (Jan 29, 2021)

bonody said:


> Yeah, sorry about that. Basically I was trying to gather more information on the Jikko Honyaki here.
> I wanted to see if this knife is the topic of discussion for the original post on this thread.
> 
> I also wanted to see if you and @labor of love were referring to it in the Tanaka Yoshikazu JNS thread. I figured your conversation in that thread was derailing from the original topic and quoted your comments into this thread because I thought it would be more relevant to the discussion here.
> ...


Not the Jikko you are linking. The other Jikko Honyaki is this one that JNS sold. Maksim sold a few but didn't restock. Come to your own conclusions








Jikko Mizo Honyaki Gyuto 240mm


Selected Japanese natural sharpening stones Toishi, Handmade by Best Blade smiths Japanese Knives, Razors and Tools




www.japanesenaturalstones.com


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## labor of love (Jan 31, 2021)

@bonody I don’t feel comfortable criticizing Maxim and his products anymore on this forum due to the mods...so I won’t. Pm me if you would like more details.


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