# Old Stones



## cotedupy (May 10, 2021)

I wanna see some pics of people's older stones. Natural, synthetic, clean, dirrrrrty, NOS, anything with a bit of history under it's belt...


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## Carl Kotte (May 10, 2021)

Great! I’ll play. This is dirty and has some history. It started out as a cracked Shapton PRO 1k, Shapton glass 1k combo. When the sg1k was worn down I added a cracking Naniwa 800 on top of it. Now it’s my dirty ketchup-and-mustard stone.


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## cotedupy (May 10, 2021)

Here's something I posted in @Carl Kotte 's Unvarnished Patina thread recently, and was met with some considerable opprobrium , so here it is in it's proper place.

I found a very grubby, old oilstone in a salvage shop the other day. It was pretty cheap, fairly flat, finer than most you see in this kind of place, and it came with a natty wooden holder:






When I cleaned it up a bit it turned out to be an old Norton India, from the feel I guess Fine or Ultra Fine, it seems about 800 grit.






I gave the dai / holder a bit of a clean, sand down, and oil. Originally I didn't think this holder was original, and that someone might have made it, but I've seen quite a few pics on the internet of identical examples so I reckon they probably did come together.






To fully clean the stone and remove oil I left it in water just off the boil with a dishwasher tablet for a couple of hours. I'm quite pleased with it tbh; it sharpens pretty well using water rather than oil, and is very quick. Plus it looks pretty in its little home, to my eye at least.


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## cotedupy (May 10, 2021)

Carl Kotte said:


> Great! I’ll play. This is dirty and has some history. It started out as a cracked Shapton PRO 1k, Shapton glass 1k combo. When the sg1k was worn down I added a cracking Naniwa 800 on top of it. Now it’s my dirty ketchup-and-mustard stone. View attachment 126513
> View attachment 126515
> View attachment 126516



Excellent work! I have a stone I was thinking of glue-ing to another as a diy combi. What's the grey stuff you've used there? I assume I could just use normal epoxy...?


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## Carl Kotte (May 10, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Excellent work! I have a stone I was thinking of glue-ing to another as a diy combi. What's the grey stuff you've used there? I assume I could just use normal epoxy...?


If only... it’s just layers and layers of mud


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## M1k3 (May 12, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Here's something I posted in @Carl Kotte 's Unvarnished Patina thread recently, and was met with some considerable opprobrium , so here it is in it's proper place.
> 
> I found a very grubby, old oilstone in a salvage shop the other day. It was pretty cheap, fairly flat, finer than most you see in this kind of place, and it came with a natty wooden holder:
> 
> ...


These make excellent tomato killing edges.


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## cotedupy (May 12, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> These make excellent tomato killing edges.



Funnily enough when I first tried it, and felt the edge, I thought exactly the same. So went to the fridge and grabbed an old tomato, and yes... they certainly do!


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## cotedupy (May 22, 2021)

So here's an interesting thing I found yesterday, again in a salvage/antique shop...

I picked it up because I hoped it might be an old Arkansas, but it's pretty tricky to tell when stuff's covered in oil and grime, sitting on a dusty shelf. I wiped it down, and it certainly did _feel_ like novaculite:






But after properly cleaning, flattening the side that needed it, and trying it out, I don't think it is a Hard Black Ark. It's feels a lot like my Translucent, but cuts better - a brilliant stone to use. And it's marginally softer - it took some work, but I managed to do the little bit of flattening needed on a 140 atoma.

I'm relatively certain it's an old Pierre du Levant / Turkish Oilstone. (A couple of other, considerably more expert, people than me have said the same). The type of inclusions and heterogeneity are typical apparently, and I remember reading previously that 'Turkey Stones' were popular in Australia in the 19th century.











If anybody has any more knowledge or thoughts on it I'd be keen to hear. They seem to be quite rare, and thought of quite highly, but there's not a massive amount of info out there. I couldn't really find out, for instance, if and how the old stones differ from modern 'Cretan Hones'...


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## Logan09 (May 22, 2021)

Here's a couple I have. I am no where near knowledgeable on stones to tell you what they are. I believe the middle one is a Washita though which was in with my grandpas carpentry tools along with the ones directly to the right. The one to the left of the Washita with the little "black" mark(divot) is a bear to get flattened. I left it as is after way to long with a diamond plate.


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## cotedupy (May 22, 2021)

Logan09 said:


> Here's a couple I have. I am no where near knowledgeable on stones to tell you what they are. I believe the middle one is a Washita though which was in with my grandpas carpentry tools along with the ones directly to the right. The one to the left of the Washita with the little "black" mark(divot) is a bear to get flattened. I left it as is after way to long with a diamond plate.
> 
> View attachment 128043



Ooh... well they're nice aren't they! I'm no expert either but from the look of it I'd be pretty certain you're right about the middle being a Washita. The one on the far left looks a lot like my Norton India above. Pretty difficult to guess the two on the right (for me at least), how do they feel?

The one second from the right looks like it might possibly be an Arkansas of some kind...


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## cotedupy (May 27, 2021)

[Falling slightly down the rabbit-hole of seeing what nice old stones I can pick up on the cheap...]

I bought this a couple of nights ago on ebay from someone who I think was doing a house clearance, judging by the other stuff they had going. And they happened to be very close to me, so I found it on the doorstep the next morning, from the pics I hoped it might be an old Washita. This is it when I received:






After a bit o cleaning:






Post lapping:






And trying out, the slurry from the plate is the kind of milky white of my other novaculite stones:






It's _very _hard, harder than I was expecting - even a small amount of flattening took a long time with an atoma. It's also finer than I was expecting, but cuts very nicely.

I think I read somewhere that all old Washitas were mined by Norton. Which seems to have the added bonus that it's exactly the same size as the Norton India which the fancy holder above. So now this has the fancy holder instead:






I'm fairly sure this is a Washita, but I've never used one before, so if any experts out there want to give an opinion one way or t'other though I'd be keen to hear...


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## childermass (May 27, 2021)

Logan09 said:


> Here's a couple I have. I am no where near knowledgeable on stones to tell you what they are. I believe the middle one is a Washita though which was in with my grandpas carpentry tools along with the ones directly to the right. The one to the left of the Washita with the little "black" mark(divot) is a bear to get flattened. I left it as is after way to long with a diamond plate.
> 
> View attachment 128043


Nice collection you got there. The second from the right looks like it should be a Charnley forest stone, a Novaculite type stone from Great Britain.


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## Logan09 (May 27, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> The one on the far left looks a lot like my Norton India above. Pretty difficult to guess the two on the right (for me at least), how do they feel?


They're all naturals. I just tested them out today(I haven't used them as I have others) on some cheap dull carbon knives I had laying around. I included a picture of the hardest to softest left>right(not including the washita as its the coarsest one) i believe the one on the far right is a slate of some type? The blackish one next to it was by far my most favorite. Cut very fast and shaved some of my arm hair with ease. 





childermass said:


> Nice collection you got there. The second from the right looks like it should be a Charnley forest stone, a Novaculite type stone from Great Britain.


I believe you may be correct! It is the hardest/finest of all the stones.


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## stringer (May 27, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> [Falling slightly down the rabbit-hole of seeing what nice old stones I can pick up on the cheap...]
> 
> I bought this a couple of nights ago on ebay from someone who I think was doing a house clearance, judging by the other stuff they had going. And they happened to be very close to me, so I found it on the doorstep the next morning, from the pics I hoped it might be an old Washita. This is it when I received:
> 
> ...



I would say it's washita. I have one that looks very similar and was identified as washita by the folks at b&b.






Favorite non-Japanese natural stones?


What do you like? I know there’s a number of them out there, lots of traditional razor hones of varying suitability for knives. And that’s about all I know other than that Coticules are said to be very good, and as expensive as a jnat in a bench size.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## cotedupy (May 27, 2021)

stringer said:


> I would say it's washita. I have one that looks very similar and was identified as washita by the folks at b&b.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ta. Yeah I'm pretty certain that's what this is now. Which is nice cos that's what I wanted, having read yours and others' opinions of them. I think there's likely to be less variety in old natural stones here in Aus, from what I've read Turkeys and Washitas were the most imported stones back in the day. But I do seem to be able to find them quite cheap - both the Washita and the Turkey Stone above were $40 Aus.

Interesting that you're not such a fan of your Turkey, as I really like mine; it's very quick, pretty fine, and leaves a really nice edge for a knife. Though I imagine it'd be too 'bite-y' on a razor. I assume you refreshed the surface a bit with a plate when you got...?


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## cotedupy (May 27, 2021)

Logan09 said:


> They're all naturals. I just tested them out today(I haven't used them as I have others) on some cheap dull carbon knives I had laying around. I included a picture of the hardest to softest left>right(not including the washita as its the coarsest one) i believe the one on the far right is a slate of some type? The blackish one next to it was by far my most favorite. Cut very fast and shaved some of my arm hair with ease. View attachment 128983
> 
> 
> I believe you may be correct! It is the hardest/finest of all the stones.



Ah, if they're all naturals it does get a bit tricky... I've spent a bit of time reading through razor forums recently, the sheer variety of things I never knew existed is quite something!

But let's play the game... The orange-y one could maybe be a different Washita, or perhaps a Hindustan, I believe the latter may often have visible layering if you look at the sides.

Your two on the right of this pic may well both be types of slate-y / shale-y things. The difference between slate and shale can get a little burry I think, and exists on a kind of continuum to do with the amount of metamorphic change involved as far as I understand. There's a lot of variety in slates, but in general are renowned for being the fastest cutters. So perhaps the darker one you said is your favourite may not be. And actually most slate shouldn't be _too_ difficult to flatten, so maybe neither are. Told you it got tricky!

Nice collection whichever way .


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## Logan09 (May 28, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> or perhaps a Hindustan, I believe the latter may often have visible layering if you look at the sides.


You may be on to something! Not a good photo, but it does have layering on the sides. 




I'm really unsure about the blackish stone. It is smaller in size to the stone to the far left that i consider the "finest" grit, yet weighs noticeably more, and weighs much more than the "slate" next to it. Could not tell you what that has to do with anything though But, as you said there are so many variations out there I may never know. Getting a lot more info here compare to what I knew before though.


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## KingShapton (May 28, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> The orange-y one could maybe be a different Washita, or perhaps a Hindustan, I believe the latter may often have visible layering if you look at the sides.


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## cotedupy (May 28, 2021)

Aha! 


Logan09 said:


> You may be on to something! Not a good photo, but it does have layering on the sides. View attachment 129030
> 
> 
> I'm really unsure about the blackish stone. It is smaller in size to the stone to the far left that i consider the "finest" grit, yet weighs noticeably more, and weighs much more than the "slate" next to it. Could not tell you what that has to do with anything though But, as you said there are so many variations out there I may never know. Getting a lot more info here compare to what I knew before though.



Aha! Yeah that's very distinctive of Hindustan stones apparently. I've never seen one in the flesh, but I think you've probably got a 99% positive id on that. Some info about them starting on page 115 of this document: https://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info 20m/grinding_and_honing_part_3.pdf

The two on the right will end up being difficult to tell I think, without showing them in person to a real expert.

If the one on the left is a Charnley Forest stone - then it would be, as @childermass said, made of the same kind of thing (novaculite) as the Washita, though a finer version. Again - I haven't used one but I imagine it would feel very hard and raise basically no slurry. If it is a Charnley Forest then that's a very nice thing to have. They're not easy to come across and much liked, especially by people who sharpen razors.

The black one which you said is heavy, and very difficult to flatten, could also be made from that... Might possibly be a Black Arkansas.


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## cotedupy (May 28, 2021)

KingShapton said:


>



(I only knew about them because of what you said yesterday! But I think that looks pretty certain identification )


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## jwthaparc (May 29, 2021)

I dont have anything super old, but I definitely have some worn out, and battlescarred dirty stones. 




This is my shapton kuromaku 1000 I dropped it, and it broke in half the other day, so i had to make a base for it. 

I'll look around and post some more pictures.


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## jwthaparc (May 29, 2021)

All right these are my poor battered stones. 

My trusty old chosera 800, 





My cerax 320






This is where I get my synthetic fingerstones, it's an old new cerax 1000/6000 combo stone.








And a completely worn out atoma 140


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## cotedupy (May 29, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> All right these are my poor battered stones.
> 
> My trusty old chosera 800,
> View attachment 129155
> ...



They've certainly 'had a good innings' as we say in the UK! 

I like the finger stone idea... My King 1200 will get to that point at some stage soonish and it does great kasumi, so I'll probably just break it up for that purpose and get a new one.


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## jwthaparc (May 29, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> They've certainly 'had a good innings' as we say in the UK!
> 
> I like the finger stone idea... My King 1200 will get to that point at some stage soonish and it does great kasumi, so I'll probably just break it up for that purpose and get a new one.


I think the king 1200 will make some fine fingerstones. I'm waiting to make some with my chosera 800. It may take a while though, I've been using my shapton a lot more often. I only use the chosera now if I'm going to be finishing on a medium grit stone. Though, now I have a green brick of joy so idk.


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## cotedupy (May 29, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> I think the king 1200 will make some fine fingerstones. I'm waiting to make some with my chosera 800. It may take a while though, I've been using my shapton a lot more often. I only use the chosera now if I'm going to be finishing on a medium grit stone. Though, now I have a green brick of joy so idk.



Ah yeah, of course you have a King 1200 so know about kasumi it does . Post permasoaking it's without a doubt my most used stone, I use basically every time I sharpen or polish something, so have been going through a bit!


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## jwthaparc (May 29, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Ah yeah, of course you have a King 1200 so know about kasumi it does . Post permasoaking it's without a doubt my most used stone, I use basically every time I sharpen or polish something, so have been going through a bit!


Yeah it's (permasoaking) a game changer. I save mine for polishing mostly, but every now and then I'll get it out for edge bevels just for the feeling.


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## musicman980 (May 29, 2021)

Here’s my old Turkey. Someone carved “1851” into the base.


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## cotedupy (May 29, 2021)

musicman980 said:


> Here’s my old Turkey. Someone carved “1851” into the base.
> 
> View attachment 129186
> View attachment 129184
> View attachment 129185



Pretty! Did you give it a simple green soak or something? I'm wondering if I should for mine above, I suspect it might come out a fair bit lighter and more detailed like yours. I can see all sorts of colours and patterns in the stone, but they don't really come out in pictures atm...


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## musicman980 (May 29, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Pretty! Did you give it a simple green soak or something? I'm wondering if I should for mine above, I suspect it might come out a fair bit lighter and more detailed like yours. I can see all sorts of colours and patterns in the stone, but they don't really come out in pictures atm...


I did soak mine in simply green for a few days, and each day it got lighter until it was chalky white. I didn't particularly like the chalky white color, but over time it has turned a bit darker. If you're going to put it in simple green, I'd say no more than a day. Now the bottom of the stone is more like what it once was, and it sits below the surface of the wood.

A day in simple green, fresh out of the vat and then cleaned up.























A few more days in simple green and it lost its charm.











But boy is it fast.


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## cotedupy (May 29, 2021)

musicman980 said:


> I did soak mine in simply green for a few days, and each day it got lighter until it was chalky white. I didn't particularly like the chalky white color, but over time it has turned a bit darker. If you're going to put it in simple green, I'd say no more than a day. Now the bottom of the stone is more like what it once was, and it sits below the surface of the wood.
> 
> A day in simple green, fresh out of the vat and then cleaned up.
> View attachment 129189
> ...



Thank you for the advice here. Maybe I'll try it for a little bit, and monitor the progress closely - I do quite like the look of yours in that intermediary stage. And I can see there's some of the same nice patterning in mine that could come out and shine a bit more (yeah I'm quite shallow and like pretty things )

And yes - jaysus is it quick for something quite fine! I _really_ like mine.


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## childermass (Jun 4, 2021)

I‘ll get on this thread too 
Received a trio of NOS scottish stones from Ayrshire today and can’t wait to give them a test run:


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## captaincaed (Jun 4, 2021)

Gotta love the old drill press boxes. The box on the bottom is my own hack job. Wouldn't recommend Brazilian redwood on the router table at 1/4" thick. That was a scary bit of work I should not have ever done.


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## cotedupy (Jun 4, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Gotta love the old drill press boxes. The box on the bottom is my own hack job. Wouldn't recommend Brazilian redwood on the router table at 1/4" thick. That was a scary bit of work I should not have ever done.
> View attachment 130049



Oh yes! Love an old box (we can't all be as talented as @childermass in that regard, though yours looks pretty swish tbh ), here are a few of my recent acquisitions:






And my (sadly holder-less atm) old Norton Hard/Translucent:


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## Lucien (Jun 4, 2021)

childermass said:


> I‘ll get on this thread too
> Received a trio of NOS scottish stones from Ayrshire today and can’t wait to give them a test run:
> View attachment 130036
> View attachment 130039
> ...


Good looking stones! Did you get them from UK? How good are they on knives?


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## childermass (Jun 4, 2021)

Lucien said:


> Good looking stones! Did you get them from UK? How good are they on knives?


I got them from a guy in the Netherlands who had bought some old stock some time ago.
I have just shortly tried them without even lapping them so this is really just a first impression:
The hardness of all three is nice, even the yellow one which is the coarsie here is decently stiff. These will definitely be suitable for knives.
As far as I can judge speed and finesse they cut reasonably fast and should make a nice progression from I guess around 500 over 3-4k to 6-7k. Maybe I will have to squeeze in my Wästikivi to bridge the gap between the yellow and blue.
More details will follow as soon as I got to try them properly.


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## Lucien (Jun 4, 2021)

childermass said:


> I got them from a guy in the Netherlands who had bought some old stock some time ago.
> I have just shortly tried them without even lapping them so this is really just a first impression:
> The hardness of all three is nice, even the yellow one which is the coarsie here is decently stiff. These will definitely be suitable for knives.
> As far as I can judge speed and finesse they cut reasonably fast and should make a nice progression from I guess around 500 over 3-4k to 6-7k. Maybe I will have to squeeze in my Wästikivi to bridge the gap between the yellow and blue.
> More details will follow as soon as I got to try them properly.


Looking forward!


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## cotedupy (Jun 5, 2021)

A couple more recent ebay acquisitions.

The first is a pretty decent sized Hindustan I got for free, because the seller sent it by mistake. Quite fine, and slow, probably around 3-5k.






This is the stone I actually bought, turned out to be some kind of razor finishing slate I'm fairly sure. This is very fine, and leaves a mega slick, sharp edge. Pretty difficult to ID I think (especially for someone with little experience of this this kind of thing), there are a couple of things that make me lean toward Thuringian or similar, but could be a lot of other things too probably. Any thoughts appreciated...
















And lastly a stone that turned out to be another, smaller, Hindustan I'm pretty sure. Looks a different colour and slightly coarser than the other, but acts very similar, also has some banding at the sides, and the slurry is basically identical (that's mud from the two different stones on my fingers):











I've only really had one miss so far with my ebay / second hand shop purchases, when one turned out to be a crappy coarse and fine combi, which is going on axe duty. But otherwise have added a whole heap of old natural stones, including the very nice old Turkish Oilstone and Washita above, for a total of about $100 Aus .


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## cotedupy (Jun 13, 2021)

So I tried out a degreasing soak on a few of my stones last night, and as @musicman980 advised - I did well to keep an eye on the Turkish Stone, as the colour change was quite drastic in not much time. I didn't use Simple Green, but a similar affair from concentrate, so it might have been a bit stronger. Though the two Washitas I soaked at the same time, had nothing like this quick a change.

You can see before pics on page 1 of this thread. Here it is after an hour soaking, some areas of the stone are bright white, others almost black.











I thought it looked kind've funky, so pulled it out at this point, as I didn't want to go too long. I then put it in some mineral oil, and within seconds it had returned to almost its original colour:






And now dry this morning, the stone is a touch lighter in colour than it was before, with some of the details slightly more visible:







I don't know if it really shows anything more than that the initial soak probably only penetrated the surface of the stone, but did so very quickly. And that Turkish Oilstones are, as people knew already, a kind of very porous, highly heterogenous, novaculite.


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## cotedupy (Jun 30, 2021)

Another cheap ebay lot I received yesterday... Broken trans ark, Llyn Idwal (or maybe Charnley Forest), Llyn Idwal, Welsh Purple Slate:


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## cotedupy (Jun 30, 2021)

And this one, which tbh is a little bit of a mystery. I think it is _probably_ another old Turkish Oilstone, though I wouldn't stake much money on that.


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## cotedupy (Jul 20, 2021)

Little job lot I picked up cheap off ebay, and received today. As you can see from the pic on the listing, most were smallish carborundum-type numbers:






But in amongst them a few gems. First up this 1940s (I think) Norton Hard / Translucent Ark. This isn't a full size bench stone, but it's big enough - an HB 24 - 4" x 2". It's also barely used, which is nice.






This Tam O'Shanter stick thing. God know's what I'd ever use it for, but nice to have a labelled old TOS nonetheless:






And then the one that made me very happy indeed. This is the stone in the top left hand corner of the first picture, which I kinda hoped possibly might be something interesting. And after a bit of cleaning...


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## Desert Rat (Jul 21, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Little job lot I picked up cheap off ebay, and received today. As you can see from the pic on the listing, most were smallish carborundum-type numbers:
> 
> View attachment 134863
> 
> ...


Oh wow, that's nice!
It's really hard to tell what's lurking under old oil and grime.


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## cotedupy (Jul 21, 2021)

Desert Rat said:


> Oh wow, that's nice!
> It's really hard to tell what's lurking under old oil and grime.



Aye! Impossible to tell from the pictures, but as soon as I unwrapped it I was pretty excited. I love these stones .

The little Norton ark is very cute as well, and looks like it's barely been used. The surface feels raw, and there's no oil or dirt on it, or the paper bits in the box.


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