# High Carbide Steel Sharpening Thread



## jwthaparc (Jan 11, 2022)

I thought a specific thread for sharpening high vanadium, and other hard carbide steels should be in order. One place for people here to dump their knowledge on the steels, and how to get them razor sharp. 

First thing is first. Diamonds, and cbn have been shown to get better results with these steel. I figure this should be one of the first things to be mentioned here. 

That does not mean you can't cut them with aluminum oxide, and silicon carbide. They will cut the matrix of the steel. What is likely going to happen is the carbides are going to be burnished, and weaked. Which will lead to failure of the edge at a faster rate. 

I'll update this later. I would love to see what the others here have to ad.

Good to be back.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 11, 2022)

So for people that stumble onto this thread, looking for info. I'll put some basic informations.

Carbides are a molecule that contains carbon, and another element (or two). Generally speaking they will be harder than the surrounding matrix of the steel. Also, a steel with hard carbides can have a low (relative) HRC rating, or high. The carbides themselves don't effect the hardness of the steel.

They do effect the wear resistance of the steel though. So a high carbide steel with a lower rockwell, will perform on around the same level as a low alloy steel with a higher rockwell generally.

With just that general info out of the way. I'll list the hardness of the carbides generally found in steel in order (this info is found on knifesteelnerds.)

Fe3C (iron carbide)

Cr7C3 (chromium carbide)

W6C (tungsten carbide, in air hardened steels)

Cr23C6 (chromium carbide)

NbC (niobium carbide)

TiC (titanium carbide)

VC (vanadium carbide)

WC (tungsten carbide)

W2C (tungsten carbide)

Once you get to the higher hardness carbides you will want to start using cbn or diamond, because the carbides can match or even been higher than the hardness of abrasives like aluminum oxide, and silicon carbide.


----------



## Mr.Wizard (Jan 11, 2022)

Todd of scienceofsharp showed that the Shapton Pro 320 is able to cut the vanadium carbides in K390. The entire article is germane.






"Close-up of a carbide partially abraded by the Shapton Pro 320."


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 11, 2022)

Mr.Wizard said:


> Todd of scienceofsharp showed that the Shapton Pro 320 is able to cut the vanadium carbides in K390. The entire article is germane.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From what I've read, coarse stones that have abrasive that is bigger than the carbide itself, it doesn't matter much. When you start to get finer abrasive. Is where the diamond/cbn becomes more important.


----------



## Mr.Wizard (Jan 11, 2022)

> Of particular interest in this article is the poorly understood interaction between relatively coarse (40-50 micron) grit stones and the 1-2 micron carbides found in powder metallurgy steels.
> 
> It is sometimes claimed that these micron-scale carbides have minimal impact on coarse grinding, with unsubstantiated claims that coarse grit stones can simply scoop out or “pop-out” the carbides. The observations I show here suggest that diamond and silicon carbide are able to abrade the vanadium carbides and remove steel sufficiently well to form a new apex. The cut depth is less than the typical carbide diameter – there is no evidence that carbides are scooped or popped out during sharpening.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 12, 2022)

Diamond, and silicon carbide, are not what is in the shapton 320 stone. 

Edit: or most japanese waterstones. Most of them are aluminum oxide. Which is most definitely not as hard as vanadium carbide. Now. I'm not saying it will necessarily scoop the carbide out of the matrix. What I am saying is it will not abrade the carbides in the same way diamond or cbn will. (Or possibly silicon carbide, but because of the range in hardnesses of silicon carbide, it is probably better to have something that is for sure harder than the carbides in the steel)


----------



## M1k3 (Jan 12, 2022)

Crystolon, especially the coarse one, works on the coarse side of things pretty well. Hard bond combined with it being SiC. Plus it's reasonably priced.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 12, 2022)

The way I think about it is, can you use a tungsten carbide pull through sharpener to remove steel, and form an apex? Yes. 

Should you use it to remove steel, and will the apex you form last? No. 

Even this example isn't really accurate though, because tungsten carbide is quite hard.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 12, 2022)

This is not conclusive evidence, but people that use, and test high vanadium carbide steels seem to repeatedly come to the same conclusion with this.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 12, 2022)

This was copied directly from knife steel nerds (larrin thomas)

Carbide size and hardness is also significant when it comes to grinding and sharpening knives. If the abrasive is softer than the carbide the abrasive is not able to abrade the carbide. Notably, aluminum oxide (Alumina), the most common abrasive, is softer than VC, NbC, and WC. However, if the abrasive size is larger than the carbide size then the abrasive is able to pull out the steel and the carbides together so that the carbide hardness isn’t as important. Abrasive wear tests of S90V and D2 showed superior wear resistance of D2 [7] even though the S90V has a large amount of hard vanadium carbide because D2 has very large carbides. This means that grindability of powder metallurgy steels is better than conventionally produced steels. So grinding and sharpening with coarse grits are generally effective with vanadium-alloyed powder metallurgy steels even if the abrasive is softer. At finer grits the hardness of the carbide becomes more important and polishing vanadium-containing steels can be challenging because aluminum oxide is too soft. Silicon carbide has a similar hardness to those hard carbides but is not clearly harder, and in general silicon carbide is not as good at cutting steel as aluminum oxide. CBN and diamond are significantly harder than any of the carbides so they are generally better at least in terms of grinding and polishing high wear resistance steels with hard carbides.


----------



## Mr.Wizard (Jan 12, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Diamond, and silicon carbide, are not what is in the shapton 320 stone.



And yet it still cuts the vanadium carbides. This is not the result that I would have predicted but the proof is there. This is an image of a bevel formed with the Shapton 320 and then micro-beveled with a hard Arkansas stone. One can easily see that the Arkansas stone does not cleanly cut the carbides resulting in them standing proud of the surface, while above that the carbides are cut along with the matrix.








jwthaparc said:


> However, if the abrasive size is larger than the carbide size then the abrasive is able to pull out the steel and the carbides together so that the carbide hardness isn’t as important.



I have repeated this guidance myself, and it may be true with powered equipment if a greater cut depth per grain is produced, but Todd's article found no evidence of this mechanism in hand sharpening.


Todd showed "severe cracking" of carbides with both the DMT diamond and Sigma Power Select II stone, but did not show this from the Shapton stone. He did not comment on this but if it is a consistent result it may be that these fractured carbides are responsible for the the edge characteristics that have been associated with diamond abrasives on high carbide steel.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 12, 2022)

Possibly. I suppose I wont truly know, until I buy a metallurgist microscope, and perform these tests myself. Because until then I will just be parroting what someone else says. 

I can say, that the more desirable results come from the use of diamond, and cbn abrasives. Just from all the home game testers I've seen get better results from these steel when using them. 

I will say larrin Thomas is a pretty good source though. If I recall he has a doctorate in metallurgy. Though again, I will still be repeating what someone else said if I dont test it myself.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 12, 2022)

This is just a thought actually. Pure speculation. 

Would it not be possible that the aluminum oxide is hard enough to burnish the remaining carbides flat? 

Because the harder materials show they crack the carbide. The softer materials show they leave the carbides completely exposed. Wouldn't it make sense that those carbides in the picture flat.


----------



## ModRQC (Jan 12, 2022)

Larrin tells the truth from a metallurgy perspective. I wouldn't try and argue he's wrong, especially where in many of the points he brings across, he always underlines some element(s) that may introduce a potential for incertitude, and is not shy of calling part of a series of test inconclusive if it's what it is.

Also he can eat his spicy chicken wings and keep a cool head like a man. 

Science of Sharp is trying to organize tests around a progression that seeks to document all aspects of hand sharpening with a "visible" result. It may not be thoroughly scientific but I also don't think he pushes the enveloppe any further than showing and explaining what's obvious.

I like both sources very much. But I think there's little experimentations that would truly have the scientific principles Larrin relies on proven wrong, on a large enough and comprehensive enough scale. I'm rather thinking that between theory and reality of a steel, of a sharpener, and of mediums used, there's a good chance for noticeable occurences where everything can't ever be SO absolute. I think there's little of what Larrin seeks to inform us that can really be related with what Science of Sharp is trying to show.

So I guess you also need a guy that has sharpened 50 iterations of a specific PM steel from different makers, say 10 with ceramics, 10 with Aluminum Oxide, 10 with Silicon Carbides, 10 with CBN and 10 with Diamonds - of different makers in a logical informative fashion in each category - to sort of give a better general picture of what you ought to be expecting _in reality _that may "bend" some of the principles and achieve actual repeatable results where in absolute it shouldn't. And yet as cool as it would be, it would still be a personal POV from us creatures of ambiguous perceptions.


----------



## Mr.Wizard (Jan 12, 2022)

I have much respect for Dr. Larrin Thomas. However metallurgy is not tribology and access to expert electron microscopy is rare. Larrin has cited Todd's work in his own writing.

I do not believe the carbides are being burnished, as they are brittle as evidenced by the cracking.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 12, 2022)

How about someone like shawn houston? He seems like someone that would be able to do these tests. I mean. I can't speak for the guy, but he seems like someone that pushes to further the world of knife steel. Has experience, and would be trusted by the community.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 12, 2022)

I would love to see a science of sharp article about the use of higher grit alumina abrasives on vanadium, and niobium carbides. I would be interested to see the pictures.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jan 14, 2022)

If @Larrin and @Deadboxhero could ad anything that would be greatly appreciated. I'm not an expert, so anything I can describe from my own experience is anecdotal at best. 

The more I mess with these steels the more I appreciate them. At this point I'm becoming more of a steel collector than a knife enthusiast.


----------



## Larrin (Jan 15, 2022)

Here is a paper you can read about carbide size and wear resistance in comparison with abrasive size: https://knifesteelnerds.com/wp-cont...formed-cold-work-tool-steels-a-comparison.pdf


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 11, 2022)

This thread honestly got way off of the topic I wanted it to go in. I want to bring it back around. More than anything I want this to be a place where people can come post things they have tried. That have had good results. That can be a sort of repository of sharing information for these steels.


----------



## esoo (Feb 11, 2022)

Here is a n=1 comment:

I had a [email protected] gyuto from @Andrei. As per Andrei, he sharpens the knives with Shapton Pros. In discussion with him, he felt the knife is sharp (which it was IMO) and gets better edge retention than when sharpened with diamonds. Based on my other knives, I felt the edge could be "finer" and touched it up on a 3K Naniwa diamond stone follow by 1u diamond paste on leather. The edge did feel finer and a bit crisper to me.

Unfortunately other financial commitments came up and I had to sell the knife shortly afterwards, so have no idea how the edge progressed from there.


----------



## kayman67 (Feb 11, 2022)

I don't even know how to answer this any more. That's not at all my experience and I've dealt with REX 121 more times than I can remember. And others. But it's very difficult to say something against any experience that's so different.


----------



## Rangen (Feb 11, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> This thread honestly got way off of the topic I wanted it to go in. I want to bring it back around. More than anything I want this to be a place where people can come post things they have tried. That have had good results. That can be a sort of repository of sharing information for these steels.



Having launched my share of threads on various forums, I have learned that all I control is the launch. After that, it goes where it goes.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 11, 2022)

Absolutely yet in this case IDK... it seems pretty on track. I mean, if you're going to want to discuss sharpening high carbide steels, there's going to be big part of the more theoretical debate of it, and then personal experiences.

I do get @jwthaparc point that he'd wish it to be focused on sharing experiences. But it's not like it went into politics, best makers for some PM or dick handles so it seems pretty on track to me.


----------



## Troopah_Knives (Feb 11, 2022)

So here are three things we know for sure:
1. MC carbides are harder than AlO and SiC.
2. The harder something is the harder it is to remover through grinding.
3. Despite what the Mohs hardness scale might tell you just because one thing is harder than another doesn't mean it can't be scratched. (I've put many a scratch in tungsten carbide file guides using belts)

So the real question here is what is the relationship between those two? Does the rate of wear decrease linearly with respect to the hardness? Is it an exponential decrease? Or is there some critical point at which wear suddenly drops? 

Since the relationship between carbide hardness, abrasive hardness and wear rates is complicated by force you have to think about force transfer when considering the effectiveness of AlO stones on these steels. For example, when I saw those Sharpton glass pictures my first thought was this. The sharpen doesn't make much slurry and the abrasive doesn't stick out as far as say a DMT plate. So if the matrix is cut faster than the carbide, the sharpening force is now concentrated on the carbide and so the rate at which the carbide is worn down increases. Therefore it is quite possible that some equilibrium is reached where the carbide appears to be worn flat (this happens all the time with knife handles that have metal-wood interfaces the metal is worn flat against the wood because a hard backed abrasive is used). On the Arkansaw stone where slurry has been produced the slurry can be above the surface and wear material around the carbides effectively transferring the force away from the face of the stone ensuring that the rate of carbide wear is not increased by a decrease in surface area. Again this is just a theory and example of some more complex things that might occur and why considering the forces involves is so important.

Now regardless of those answers here is why I use diamond stones. I see no mechanism for why sharpening on AlO stones would be better than diamond stones (if someone can point one out I'm open to hearing them) meaning at best they are just as good. Now I do know that they are definitely slower and diamond stones really aren't that expensive anymore and it is significantly easier to get a nice clean apex on a stone that cuts faster. In many ways, I've never really understood why the AlO vs diamond question is still so prevalent. Sure it's really interesting in theory but in practice, there aren't many people who can afford to get into these steels who also can't afford $30 more for a diamond stone over an AlO one. Now that's not to say this thread is meaningless. Quite the opposite in fact I think there are tons of interesting questions to be asked about these steels once you get past what abrasive to use to sharpen them. For example: Is there an advantage to going extra thin BTE but having a steeper secondary bevel? Should we be using aggressive stropping to add edge convexity?


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 12, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> So here are three things we know for sure:
> 1. MC carbides are harder than AlO and SiC.
> 2. The harder something is the harder it is to remover through grinding.
> 3. Despite what the Mohs hardness scale might tell you just because one thing is harder than another doesn't mean it can't be scratched. (I've put many a scratch in tungsten carbide file guides using belts)
> ...


A lot of good points. 

I actually just got some flat stock of cpm 10v in the mail today, that I plan on making some knives with. One of the reasons is to answer those questions for myself in one way or another. 

I've always been an advocate for thin geometry (except if you want to chop down a tree or something). At least the thinnest a give steel, at a given hardness can handle. With a given use in mind. 

I think a thinner behind the edge geometry will make an improvement even with a higher degree apex bevel. Less force needed to cut would theoretically mean less chance of abrasion or deformation, at least that's my theory. 

Ideally keep the thin geometry on both the behind the edge, and edge bevels. Especially if the knife wont see hard use.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 12, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> I don't even know how to answer this any more. That's not at all my experience and I've dealt with REX 121 more times than I can remember. And others. But it's very difficult to say something against any experience that's so different.


I know I wouldn't even attempt doing it with anything but cbn or diamond. Not that it couldn't be done. It just wouldn't be the best choice. At least in my opinion. 

It's like cleaning a dish you burned food on, and deciding to use a soft sponge and rub on it all day, instead of grabbing some scotch brite or steel wool, and getting it off more efficiently.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 14, 2022)

I intended to do my own post on my experience with HAP40 but it seems clear after two months that I'll never get around to it. So let’s encourage @jwthaparc much better idea of it instead.

Warning: this will not go with the grain. And isn’t at any place a statement about anything. Just what I tried and remarks I find interesting myself.

Unit in question is Sukenari HAP40 – supposed HT in the high sixties. Average claim: 68RC. We don’t care, except that I can’t provide for a general experience of those steels, and I guess HAP40 could be construed as rather middle of the road in this category. So in this case I guess it’s important I mention THE knife with which my experience went as follow… BTW I’m merely talking sharpening here. Thinning the core would sure modify some of my remarks to the worse, although the gist of it does apply.

Another important thing is nothing new, and already reported by much more experienced members than me here and there on KKF, but I must admit is quite surprising “in action”: it makes the stones generally feel glassier. With some it’s just something obvious but not particularly significant; with others you almost entirely lose tactility and feedback – which is very significant.

What I’ve found really peculiar is that it doesn’t correlate AT ALL with the stones being tortured to a pulp. I thought flattening all the stones I’d use in the process (and there were a few as you’ll see) would be the PITA of my life, but ridiculously little work was needed at any step. An image came to mind as I was mulling it over: magnetic repulsion. Accordingly I’ve remarked with just about any stone a much slower generating of mud than how they usually behave. Not just less swarf from slower removal, but less abrasives shed entirely. Possibly logical if correlated but I’m not into stone theory so much so I'm useless.

Ok so now that I’ve got rid of these possibly more personal remarks, at first try I went with the “generally accepted” (ah!) notion that harder stones would fare better and lots of advice towards using Shapton stones if no better option available. I have a few, so a recommendation easy to understand logically and easy to follow. The knife had been thinned quite some, so completely dull at that point.

1st prog = shaping edge on Nanohone 200, then testing SG500, SP1K, SP2K, SG4K and SG6K trying to find a “rupture” point. I think the “burnishing” argument is more or less widely accepted, but whatever happens when one hits the well-known limits of regular water stones was the rupture point I was trying to see for myself. A couple onions to cut, testing progression along the way, because I just didn’t know what to expect or where I should stop altogether.

My experience with said hard stones was nothing SO convincing. For one thing, they’re the ones most likely to mean “glassier” loses you the most of their usual tactility/feedback, but also because suddenly they’re really not so fast for the major part of them. For another, the edge I got was sure better than OOTB, but not what I was waiting for. The rupture point was SP2K – light stropping on SG4K. Any further polishing on SG4K, or stropping or polishing further on SG6K, yielded no benefits or even deterioration.

Then again, all of this is very obvious, and about expected… but if SP2K and perhaps some light stropping on a finer stone was close enough ballpark to the best I’d ever achieve with further “practice” on a 400$ CAD knife, then I’d be forever… unsatisfied/forced into trying some diamond plates.

So I needed to know… The knife was intentionally dulled with a few light swipes on the side of Nanohone 200 making sure it was somewhere close as dull and ragged and at least needing some rebeveling as out of thinning. Took more than expected to just completely dull it, is quite a statement towards HAP endurance. I'd figure one swipe on any simple steel, perhaps two on high hardened simple steels, would pretty much do it where after three this one still somewhat readily catched and half cut/half teared printer paper. Five total 90* swipes on Nanohone 200 is... well completely out of normal expectations for "harshly tested retention" into making a good working edge completely messed up. Then I went into a second progression where I kept two of the hard Shaptons (SG500 and SP2K) for additional deburring purposes, and the two finer SGs for some additional careful tests but otherwise kept the shaping and refining with Cerax stones for the major part of the work.

2nd prog = shaping with Cerax 320, degreasing on SG500, then Cerax 1K degreasing again with SP2K, then Ouka. One onion, then further exploration with SG4K and SG6K where I carefully did only but a few refining swipes on SG4K, and two oh-so-light stropping swipes on SG6K. I wanted to do only one but only one seemed... well... useless-as-in-just-stop-at-SG4K-altogether useless. But more than two I was pretty sure I'd start deteriorating my edge. I know it sounds really puerile and not scientific... but just try getting an additional stone ready for one swipe on both sides and you might feel ridiculous too. Hard to even tell you achieved something there at all indeed, and it's not like two swipes mean the world from there... buuut in this case, more is probably way too much if a single one isn't already. Real casual reporting of my basic thinking into this. Two swipes made sure I could be as sure as ever with a slight refinement and no obvious deterioration.

I was a bit taken aback. For one thing, still held true even with the Cerax stones that mud generating and dishing were minimized. For another thing, the Cerax felt “glassier” for sure, yet again preserving most of their tactility. And then some with the realisation that Cerax 1K was quite faster than SG500, and Ouka just as fast or somewhat faster than SP2K. The edge out of Ouka was so much more “IT” than out of SP2K. And then, carefully used as they were from nullified previous trials, SG4K-6K just brought some refining this mix into an edge I’m still using after 5-6 preps of different stuff than onions… with utmost satisfaction.

This second progression was sure helped by the first prog: for one thing, there was less edge bevel to recut (not so much, the dulling on Nanohone 200 is a really harsh thing to do to an apex, and will require the major part of cutting a new edge indeed, and then the 5 swipes is insane stuff) but mostly, knowing what I was in for the second time around and adapting stones and knowing what minimal refinement I could bring without risking the entire operation.

For that matter, speed in different circumstances of shaping and apexing and stones used is a VERY difficult thing to gauge with similarly fast stones for steel, and I won’t just bluntly maintain a statement that Cerax until Ouka are any faster or better than Shaptons throughout. I’ m just pretty damn sure they’re about as fast at worse, and able to keep their tactility, making the experience not totally alien but just one of a more difficult steel to get right within a pretty minimal step down in speed or behavior.

Concluding this with a few remarks that can be laughed at or disregarded completely AFAIC – regarding regular water stones:


Start on a coarser stone than where you’d usually start a similar project with regular steels;
Get a bit exaggerated burr into primary edge rather than a careful steel saving one;
Muddier/softer stones might be as fast as any while keeping closer to usual behavior;
All of the above standing until hitting 1-3K threshold depending on stones and steels etc.;
Further refinement than 1K-3K threshold must be experimented with very minimally;
And mind you that at that point I’d encourage harder stones... but all the same;
Experience helps; don’t get discouraged on first try; keep it simple, use your favorite stones…
… until you know better than me, which probably isn’t difficult and makes all this quite useless!

_*** This was spur of a moment post that, disregarding length, is probably as doubtful as any post I ever made under any circmunstances including shady jokes no one gets... or should will to do for that matter. 

No animals - nor viruses (planning a millenium ahead on human's stupidity about faking realization of an important evolutional change) - were hurt in writing this post or - AFAIK - in manufacturing the knife or the stones implied. Perhaps a cow or horses or two, and 346 cases of Covid serving the "saintly vaccinated so I can go cough into everyone's face claiming I don't need to wear any mask because I'M VACCINATED"... who really knows?_


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 22, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> I intended to do my own post on my experience with HAP40 but it seems clear after two months that I'll never get around to it. So let’s encourage @jwthaparc much better idea of it instead.
> 
> Warning: this will not go with the grain. And isn’t at any place a statement about anything. Just what I tried and remarks I find interesting myself.
> 
> ...


If I was going to use aluminum oxide stones on one of higher carbide, higher hardness steels. It most definitely would be a muddier one. These steels in particular tend to act just as you mentioned. I particularly noticed this with 10v on my chosera 800 a while back. It just slid around like I was rubbing it ok a piece of ice or something.

What did you mean by the first paragraph? Just that people should use the thread?


----------



## Troopah_Knives (Feb 22, 2022)

This is just a note for the people curious. It seems like the glassy feeling occurs even at very low MC volumes. As @ModRQC described with Hap 40 a steel that only has around 4-5% MC carbide volume. I would be curious to know what the difference with higher MC carbide volume steels is. Do they feel more glassy? or will they just feel glassy in a larger number of circumstances?


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 22, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> This is just a note for the people curious. It seems like the glassy feeling occurs even at very low MC volumes. As @ModRQC described with Hap 40 a steel that only has around 4-5% MC carbide volume. I would be curious to know what the difference with higher MC carbide volume steels is. Do they feel more glassy? or will they just feel glassy in a larger number of circumstances?


I've noticed m390 can feel glassy, and that isn't a steel that is ran particularly hard. I can't say exactly what hardness it was ran at though. 

I've noticed k390, 10v, and maxamet tend to feel extremely glassy, and they are all high mc carbide, high hardness steels (with maxamet being particularly hard). I've noticed a similar feeling in s90v which isn't ran above 60-61 usually, so it must have something to do with the high vanadium or something. 

I guess I'm just saying it depends. High hardness can definitely be felt when on a stone though.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 22, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> What did you mean by the first paragraph? Just that people should use the thread?



Yeah totally. I think it's a good idea to start it, even where it seems to have difficulties to catch on. I'd go with a theory about why but who cares, really... Well I do and find it interesting but that's another thing. I liked the idea and your trying bringing it back to experience rather than pure theory so much that it seemed selfish I would even continue holding onto the idea of publishing my own post. I'm glad I did... My own post would probably have been twice longer and 10 times more boring.



Troopah_Knives said:


> This is just a note for the people curious. It seems like the glassy feeling occurs even at very low MC volumes. As @ModRQC described with Hap 40 a steel that only has around 4-5% MC carbide volume. I would be curious to know what the difference with higher MC carbide volume steels is. Do they feel more glassy? or will they just feel glassy in a larger number of circumstances?





jwthaparc said:


> I've noticed m390 can feel glassy, and that isn't a steel that is ran particularly hard. I can't say exactly what hardness it was ran at though.
> 
> I've noticed k390, 10v, and maxamet tend to feel extremely glassy, and they are all high mc carbide, high hardness steels (with maxamet being particularly hard). I've noticed a similar feeling in s90v which isn't ran above 60-61 usually, so it must have something to do with the high vanadium or something.
> 
> I guess I'm just saying it depends. High hardness can definitely be felt when on a stone though.



I'm always quite reluctant to speak about hardness felt on stones. But yeah I so totally agree it's felt. I'd add, even on a cutting board. Not talking about very thin/keen edge digging more into it, but the sheer report. On stones it's more easy to notice. Steels are what they are but higher hardened W#2 or A#2 shows in my sense. They're still as easy to sharpen, and really no additional time is felt involved there, but I'd guess a few strokes might be. I don't count so I don't know but there's a reluctance not to be found with regular HTs.

The one thing - well, one knife - that always had me biting my tongue about felt hardness and regret the few times I commited into it, is Shi.Han 52100. I'd trust the claimed 62 RC from that maker more than any claimed RC on any steel from Japan as reported by vendors where 10 of them will use slightly different specs. And then there's some additional chromium into 52100 than regular Japan carbons but really... that's FAR from stainless or even A2 levels and I found SKD-12 real easy and mellow carbon-like to sharpen - expected 63RC aka Yoshikane. Much mellower and easier than Shi.Han's 52100.

So IDK. As far as I can tell from experiences like these - 52100 @ 62RC, SKD-12 @ 63RC (from a J. maker I guess we'd have to respect the pretty consistent claimed RC), AEB-L (HSC/// who I'd also trust completely) @ 62RC - and experiences like TF W#1, Mazaki W#2, Deep Impact AS, Sukenari AS with their quite reputed higher RC than average claims, and the bulk of 60-63RC carbon and semi knives I tried, or the 58-61RC stainless bunch I also tried... or all Sanjo steels I sharpened from that matter... there's a few things going on that still have me no wiser.

Hardness

More carbides - even pretty low RC cuttable ones

HT

And I think HT is quite the thing. Most illuminating experience with it by order of magnitude aka time I - and this concerns me alone - spent on knives reflecting in these remarks: Shi.Han 52100 feeling quite harder than claimed RC, Y. Tanaka HT with White #2, TF White #1, Sanjo knives (with a handful of W#2/A#2), HSC AEB-L vs. Zwilling/Miyabi FC-61, Victorinox vs. cheap SS vs. 440A / 440C kind, and then VG-10 from Sakai Takayi, from Y. Tanaka, from Ryusen...

Hardness would be the very least of my concern... yet I do fully agree that mostly from say 58-62RC ballpark to 63-66 ballpark and then possibly the Sukenari HAP beyond that - it plays a role. Just not a definitive one - ergo sure additional reluctance according to me, but NOTHING like "magnetic repulsion" felt with Sukenari.

Leading me to carbides and HT, and HT I'm still fairly certain makes for MOST of a sharpening experience, yet... Yet Sukenari HAP feels alien - oh so totally alien - against any of the above. So much it could be the worst HT'd or best HT'd HAP in the world I've got in my hand, and my usual flags would still all be down about which one it is. There is no comparison... but possibly the general comparison of Japan carbons to cheap German SS. Not in the bad sharpening, but in the way carbides will play a big role too in just moving the SS steel whatever the quality of it. Zwilling FC-61, HSC AEB-L, 440C were most illuminating in that regard as well as VG-10. But lesser VG-10 or cheap german SS... they're just NOTHING like HAP-40 from Suke. And then again, Sakai VG-10 is nothing to S. Tanaka VG-10 is close but still nothing to Ryusen VG-10 - all three with about the same hardness level (Takayuki was no mellower) and surely the same amount and type of carbides initially, but radically different HTs I would suppose.

So...

1- Carbides hardness but also amount, is the clearest of markers
2- HT follows quite closely - it can make radical differences.
3- Then yes, hardness is also something felt that can play a role, but such of a small one.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 23, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Yeah totally. I think it's a good idea to start it, even where it seems to have difficulties to catch on. I'd go with a theory about why but who cares, really... Well I do and find it interesting but that's another thing. I liked the idea and your trying bringing it back to experience rather than pure theory so much that it seemed selfish I would even continue holding onto the idea of publishing my own post. I'm glad I did... My own post would probably have been twice longer and 10 times more boring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I looked into hap 40 again. Everyone considers it the Japanese sister steel to cpm rex 45. The big difference I noticed between the 2 though. Is they gave a range of values for pretty much everything in that steel. I'm guessing from batch to batch of it, it could have higher or lower amounts of a given element. Which could make a difference. 

The 62 hrc 52100 is a bit puzzling. I would be curious to see it tested. because 52100 can be ran all the way up above 65 hrc. So if its performing on the stones like that it makes me think maybe that's what happened. or maybe it is lower hrc and they austenized at a lower temperature leaving more carbides undisolved rather than in solution? Idk . 

I definitely feel like the putting a steel on a stone and sharpening it is one of the biggest things a person without test equipment can do though. The stones don't lie, they will reveal imperfections in the grind, the heat treatment, the composition. I go out and sharpen knives on the weekends for cash, and I've seen my fair share of them. I can tell right away if the ht was done well when I feel the knife on the stone.


----------



## Troopah_Knives (Feb 23, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> I've noticed m390 can feel glassy, and that isn't a steel that is ran particularly hard. I can't say exactly what hardness it was ran at though.
> 
> I've noticed k390, 10v, and maxamet tend to feel extremely glassy, and they are all high mc carbide, high hardness steels (with maxamet being particularly hard). I've noticed a similar feeling in s90v which isn't ran above 60-61 usually, so it must have something to do with the high vanadium or something.
> 
> I guess I'm just saying it depends. High hardness can definitely be felt when on a stone though.




I think you may have missed my point. What you just described has no correlation with hardness but an almost perfect correlation with MC carbide volume. M390 has the lowest volume with ~2%, S90V ~9% then maxamet with 13%, and k390 and 10v with 16%. My point is that MC carbide volume is by far the dominant factor in glassiness and I have yet to see hardness play any role in that effect.

On the topic of if you can feel hardness on the stones. I'm sure you can but the differences would be slight. We are highly subject to our own biases so these very slight differences can be easily colored by what someone thinks of the steel. It would be interesting to test this with identical steel knives one treated to 58Rc one treated to 64Rc and see how many people can guess which is which.



jwthaparc said:


> I'm guessing from batch to batch of it, it could have higher or lower amounts of a given element.



Japanese steelmakers are very tight-lipped about the actual compositions of their steel however I doubt the batch-to-batch variability is greater then western makers. The range is likely because they are simply quoting the patent. Hap-40 is close enough to identical Rex 45 that I doubt anyone could tell the difference.

Finally @ModRQC of note on especially the 440c and AEB-L that you mentioned above. Not all steels even with the same composition and general manufacturing process are created equal. This isn't often mentioned but especially with conventionally made steels there can be a lot of variability in quality between companies.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 23, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> I think you may have missed my point. What you just described has no correlation with hardness but an almost perfect correlation with MC carbide volume. M390 has the lowest volume with ~2%, S90V ~9% then maxamet with 13%, and k390 and 10v with 16%. My point is that MC carbide volume is by far the dominant factor in glassiness and I have yet to see hardness play any role in that effect.
> 
> On the topic of if you can feel hardness on the stones. I'm sure you can but the differences would be slight. We are highly subject to our own biases so these very slight differences can be easily colored by what someone thinks of the steel. It would be interesting to test this with identical steel knives one treated to 58Rc one treated to 64Rc and see how many people can guess which is which.
> 
> ...


No I didnt miss your point. It's just that the steels that felt glassy on the stones are all ones that seemed to have vanadium carbides. And the steels with the highest hardnesses I've tried so far have been ones that happened to have a high amount of vanadium, tungsten, and usually either cobalt or molybdenum. With vanadium being the one forming hard carbides. 

Now, I know super blue can get around 65 hrc, and so can 52100. The reason I didn't bring them up is because I don't have a lot of experience sharpening those at those hardnesses. 

What I'm saying is I'm sure hardness and mc carbide both have an effect it. Like you said above k390/10v has more vanadium than maxamet, and yet if I'm using maxamet on a traditional stone. It seems (at least in my mind) to feel harder (which it is as far as HRC goes). Now that does not correlate to anything scientific, and is certainly subjective. Idk if I was blindfolded if I could tell k390 and maxamet apart, but that's just my 2 cents. 

I can definitely tell low hardness steel from a higher hardness steel. Say 55ish vs 62ish. The steels in the mid 50s will feel almost gummy on the stones. I actually am confident that blind folded I could tell these apart.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 23, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Finally @ModRQC of note on especially the 440c and AEB-L that you mentioned above. Not all steels even with the same composition and general manufacturing process are created equal. This isn't often mentioned but especially with conventionally made steels there can be a lot of variability in quality between companies.



My point was precisely about how steels with similar hardness can yield very different impressions on stones about said hardness, even if of a similar or exact same composition.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 23, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> My point was precisely about how steels with similar hardness can yield very different impressions on stones about said hardness, even if of a similar or exact same composition.


Well. That's of course if you assume the hardness listed is correct. Without testing know one will for sure know. 

Of course the assumption being if they are of the same hardness, and composition, then one likely was austenized at a higher temperature, and then tempered at a higher temperature to compensate for the the higher hardness which can have a big effect on the end result


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 23, 2022)

Yeah well I don't see where I negate the aspect that there will be variations. It's exactly my point. Of course I assume similar hardness. But I'm saying they're often not comparable. But it's not like a couple RC points is gonna change the world for a similar steel composition.

Then the rest of your argument concerns HT which is also exactly my point: I don't believe hardness is even closely as determining a factor than HT in what is felt on a stone.

And I don't need no beliefs or assumptions to KNOW that what REALLY is the most determining factor to what is felt on a stone is carbide hardness/volume.

Talking assumptions you seem to assume hardness is really what you're feeling. I'd say assuming a different enough RC to be felt as much from similar hardness claims is probably a much more dangerous assumption than assuming they'll probably be close enough and that something else is felt as harder or softer than the effective hardness of a given sample.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 23, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Yeah well I don't see where I negate the aspect that there will be variations. It's exactly my point. Of course I assume similar hardness. But I'm saying they're often not comparable. But it's not like a couple RC points is gonna change the world for a similar steel composition.
> 
> Then the rest of your argument concerns HT which is also exactly my point: I don't believe hardness is even closely as determining a factor than HT in what is felt on a stone.
> 
> ...


I'm not even arguing. I'm just having a conversation. If anything I was agreeing with you.

I haven't been trying to argue this whole time with either of you.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 23, 2022)

If it is the difference just in ht we are feeling, what do you think it is? (Again not arguing. This is me just asking a question) there are a couple things it could be. 

1 I could be carbide size
2 grain size
3 less carbides, because they were dissolved into solution at high austenizing temperature. (Or more, after austenizing at a lower temp)

For 1 I think it could possibly make grinding more difficult, while it will also reduce toughness quite a bit. So that's plausible. 

2 is similar to 1 it tends to lower machinability from what I've read. So having a smaller grain size would help with sharpening theoretically. As well as toughness. 

3 so d2 (skd11) is a good example of this in action. When a maker austenizes it at a higher temperature it dissolves more of the chromium carbides into to solution (as well as carbon) and actually will make the steel have more corrosion resistance, and possible higher hardness. While that happens, it will have less chromium carbide as a result, which between the higher hardness, and that probably equals itself out for edge retention. 

So heat treat could effect this in a number of ways.


----------



## Troopah_Knives (Feb 24, 2022)

I would say retained austenite is another very good candidate.
Grain boundary carbide formation would also be a good candidate in low alloy steels (and in some cases high alloy steels).

Overall I think there are quite a few factors that could contribute to sharpening feel. Although to me it seems like all of these would have very small effects. Much less than a change in the alloy.



jwthaparc said:


> While that happens, it will have less chromium carbide as a result, which between the higher hardness, and that probably equals itself out for edge retention



Only a very small amount of chromium carbides will dissolve. In the vast majority of cases, higher austenitization temps (with the same temper) lead to higher wear resistance because only very small amounts of carbide dissolving add a lot of carbon to the Austenite. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but it's on the order of ~1% carbide volume difference from the highest to the aus temps to the lowest for D2. So I think #3 is probably the least likely of your proposed mechanisms.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 25, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> I would say retained austenite is another very good candidate.
> Grain boundary carbide formation would also be a good candidate in low alloy steels (and in some cases high alloy steels).
> 
> Overall I think there are quite a few factors that could contribute to sharpening feel. Although to me it seems like all of these would have very small effects. Much less than a change in the alloy.
> ...


I've heard retained austinite can lead to problems sharpening. Mainly getting a good apex. At least that's what larrin proposed when talking about a problem he had sharpening rex 121. As far as the actual feeling on the stone, I'm guessing more austinite would lead to less of a glassy feeling, if it does in fact contribute. 

Part of these things is what makes me think hardnesses have a major contribution in the feeling a steel has on a stone. I'm willing to bet that unless knifemakers are actually testing HRC (particularly japanese makers that don't use precise temperature control) there is a high variability in the hardness from knife to knife. Which can explain difference at a listed hrc. 

There are so many variables at play though. Like geometry. I've noticed knives that are overly thick behind the edge tend to be more likely to have that feeling on a stone too. Particularly in higher hardness, or carbide steels.


----------



## kayman67 (Feb 27, 2022)

These are more like fine details. 
The core of the situation is the fact that lately diamond/cbn is presented not only as a poor choice, but borderline unusable. No matter the alloys. While even here the vast majority of users have seen some kind of improvement using diamond/cbn sharpening in various scenarios.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> These are more like fine details.
> The core of the situation is the fact that lately diamond/cbn is presented not only as a poor choice, but borderline unusable. No matter the alloys. While even here the vast majority of users have seen some kind of improvement using diamond/cbn sharpening in various scenarios.


Who is presenting it like that? I would love to see their perspective. 

I honestly have come to really enjoy diamonds the more I use them. I used to only use regular waterstones, and had an atoma for coarse work, and flattening. Now they've become an almost essential part of my progressions. Just because of my slow change of heart towards diamond abrasives (that came more when I started sharpening high wear resistance steels). It makes me think people are honestly holding them in contempt prior to investigation.


----------



## kayman67 (Feb 28, 2022)

Things got "out of control" after scienceofsharp, of course. Being considered by many as the ultimate authority in sharpening. Had many talks after that. 
But you can find an opinion on this also here





S390 67HRC some sharpening advice


As a note online makes the "points" literally and figuratively: "Diamond is the hardest-known mineral. However, the hardness of diamond is directional. It is hardest parallel to its octahedral planes and softest parallel to its cubic planes." So my question is which crystal structure out of...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> Things got "out of control" after scienceofsharp, of course. Being considered by many as the ultimate authority in sharpening. Had many talks after that.
> But you can find an opinion on this also here
> 
> 
> ...


Got it. 

Yeah, I agree with what you stated in that post. I've found for myself, and heard from others, that they tend to get edges that last longer with diamonds and/or cbn. Particularly in these high carbides steels.

I haven't looked into results on simple, or lower mc carbide steels, so I can't comment on that. I can say I tend to get amazing edges with them, on pretty much any steel now days. I feel like it's all about learning to use them correctly.


----------



## kayman67 (Feb 28, 2022)

I was always searching for diamond and cbn abrasives, used them for many years and the search is not over just because improvements do happen still. So I'm always interested in this subject.


----------



## Troopah_Knives (Feb 28, 2022)

First: what diamond stones are you folks using?

Second: What do you all think about maintaining these edges? I find myself hardly ever using stones, especially on the harder steels (I've run 10V and Z-max for a while). I have a strop loaded with 1um diamond that I use maybe every other week and the blades stay quite sharp the entire time in between. The strop really just refreshes the edge bringing it back to easily slicing paper towels.


----------



## M1k3 (Feb 28, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> First: what diamond stones are you folks using?
> 
> Second: What do you all think about maintaining these edges? I find myself hardly ever using stones, especially on the harder steels (I've run 10V and Z-max for a while). I have a strop loaded with 1um diamond that I use maybe every other week and the blades stay quite sharp the entire time in between. The strop really just refreshes the edge bringing it back to easily slicing paper towels.


I'm using a Venev 400/800 and 1 micron diamond paste (sometimes).


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> First: what diamond stones are you folks using?
> 
> Second: What do you all think about maintaining these edges? I find myself hardly ever using stones, especially on the harder steels (I've run 10V and Z-max for a while). I have a strop loaded with 1um diamond that I use maybe every other week and the blades stay quite sharp the entire time in between. The strop really just refreshes the edge bringing it back to easily slicing paper towels.


I use dmt coarse, and fine. Venev 240, 400, 1200, and 2000. Then I have a strop loaded with 1 micron, and one with .5 micron diamond sprays. That pretty much covers my bases with diamond, anything coarser I go on to the bryxco manticore.

As far as maintenance. I also tend to just bring my maxamet para 3 to my 1 micron diamond spray strop. It seems to work pretty well. Depends how bad the edge is of course.


----------



## Rangen (Feb 28, 2022)

Not to tout unobtanium, but the BBB 1000 vitrified diamond stone has become my go-to stone for sharpening my exotic steel pocketknives.

I like a toothy edge on a pocketknife, and I tend to hit the edges pretty hard with cardboard box tasks, so the 1K gives me the exact edge I want, after cleaning up after the hard use. I don't really have a use for a fine diamond strop on these knives.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

I tend to either finish on the dmt fine, the venev 240 (320ish jis) or 400 (600 jis) then do the 1 micron strop. Leaves me just the edge I'm looking for. 

I would love someday to get one of @Deadboxhero s stones. Like you said though they're not easy to come by all the time, and when they are, I still can't afford one. One day I'll get one though, after I get a heat treating kiln, and a dewor for cryo.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 28, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> I'm not even arguing. I'm just having a conversation. If anything I was agreeing with you.
> 
> I haven't been trying to argue this whole time with either of you.



Sorry man, I used "argument" in the sense of "point made". I'm a native French speaker, and in French a point made towards something is called an argument. Not in the sense of a dispute.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Sorry man, I used "argument" in the sense of "point made". I'm a native French speaker, and in French a point made towards something is called an argument. Not in the sense of a dispute.


Got it. Sorry. I thought, you thought I was trying to be combative or something. When I was just more trying to speculate, and give my view from the things I've learned about steel over time.


----------



## ModRQC (Feb 28, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Got it. Sorry. I thought, you thought I was trying to be combative or something. When I was just more trying to speculate, and give my view from the things I've learned about steel over time.



No I wouldn't go into "arguing" too much about these things as I really don't know. I think the gist has been said by Troopah that different enough alloys is what mostly makes a difference. From there I'd assume HT makes a difference assuming similar compositions - and assuming I can really capture it. But I wouldn't readily call on "the better HT" between different knives. Hardness I already said I'd rather try not to assume anything much. I agree that it's felt when - always assuming claims are close to specs - I can compare sharpening something like TF W#1 or Sukenari AS with more typical hardness carbons. I pointed out the Shi.Han has always confounded me in sharpening and feeling on board, but I should probably have added that the edge's wear rate is not noticeably longer than any carbons of its hardness range, although I strongly believe it "retains" a working edge longer than many - not talking about keen sharpness but most probably the additional carbides from the chromium as well as somewhat higher corrosion resistance add together in keeping some bite longer when the initial keenness is gone. Compared head to head with TF Mabs, the initial keeness was kept longer with the Mabs - but deteriorated faster from there. Not scientific as a lot can play into this, but just the kind of mildly interesting "phenomenons" you take note of in use.


----------



## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> No I wouldn't go into "arguing" too much about these things as I really don't know. I think the gist has been said by Troopah that different enough alloys is what mostly makes a difference. From there I'd assume HT makes a difference assuming similar compositions - and assuming I can really capture it. But I wouldn't readily call on "the better HT" between different knives. Hardness I already said I'd rather try not to assume anything much. I agree that it's felt when - always assuming claims are close to specs - I can compare sharpening something like TF W#1 or Sukenari AS with more typical hardness carbons. I pointed out the Shi.Han has always confounded me in sharpening and feeling on board, but I should probably have added that the edge's wear rate is not noticeably longer than any carbons of its hardness range, although I strongly believe it "retains" a working edge longer than many - not talking about keen sharpness but most probably the additional carbides from the chromium as well as somewhat higher corrosion resistance add together in keeping some bite longer when the initial keenness is gone. Compared head to head with TF Mabs, the initial keeness was kept longer with the Mabs - but deteriorated faster from there. Not scientific as a lot can play into this, but just the kind of mildly interesting "phenomenons" you take note of in use.


Only one way to find the answer. Well 2 maybe. 

Either a catra test. Or doing a few rope cutting tests.


----------



## jwthaparc (Mar 1, 2022)

Bringing it back to what @Troopah_Knives had sort of said. About thickness behind the edge on high carbide steels. I agree with bbbs philosophy. If it's a cutting tool, and you're using a high mc carbides steel. You are wasting its potential if you don't get it super thin behind the edge.

These steels are the ones that really seem to excell ground super thin.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 30, 2022)

A very reasonable explanation of why edge retention suffers when softer abrasives are used on these steels.


----------



## Troopah_Knives (Jun 30, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> A very reasonable explanation of why edge retention suffers when softer abrasives are used on these steels.



Sure definitely plausible. I would quibble a little bit with his definition of edge retention. The wear resistance of the steel is just as good so the knife is retaining its edge just as well. The real difference I would say is that the edge is lower quality and has greater friction due to the cutting that the carbides are doing on the surface of the edge, not just the apex. Thus in any sort of force-controlled cutting tests, you will cut less total cut media.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 30, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Sure definitely plausible. I would quibble a little bit with his definition of edge retention. The wear resistance of the steel is just as good so the knife is retaining its edge just as well. The real difference I would say is that the edge is lower quality and has greater friction due to the cutting that the carbides are doing on the surface of the edge, not just the apex. Thus in any sort of force-controlled cutting tests, you will cut less total cut media.


Good point. 

I will say a good bit of the testing hes talking about is done by hand by himself, and the other guys that are out their doing manual testing on the edge retention using different abrasives. So it isn't just showing up on catra. 

Its probably a combination of both what you are saying, and also some of what he is proposing.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 5, 2022)




----------



## ModRQC (Dec 5, 2022)

Is it a matter of debate really? Or more one of "easy availability" to one's progression unless buying a few stones each step of the way into specialized steels or just trying to get there with what's at hand. 

And then again Science of Sharp had noted cleaner results using lower grits diamonds, less and less obvious going up in grits, though still cutting at higher grits where burnishing occurs with softer abrasives. Possibly cBN behaves the "same way" to some extent of readily showing results, and these are 400 grits results. Then again, it's CPM 15V so something else entirely

Not saying it's not right... just saying it's still not all that can be said. I'd be more interested in tests juxtaposing the best you can get out of each kind of stones. Still not conclusive but I'd be interested to see.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Is it a matter of debate really? Or more one of "easy availability" to one's progression unless buying a few stones each step of the way into specialized steels or just trying to get there with what's at hand.
> 
> And then again Science of Sharp had noted cleaner results using lower grits diamonds, less and less obvious going up in grits, though still cutting at higher grits where burnishing occurs with softer abrasives. Possibly cBN behaves the "same way" to some extent of readily showing results, and these are 400 grits results. Then again, it's CPM 15V so something else entirely
> 
> Not saying it's not right... just saying it's still not all that can be said. I'd be more interested in tests juxtaposing the best you can get out of each kind of stones. Still not conclusive but I'd be interested to see.


Ive seen plenty of people debate it.

And in todays age, someone could get diamond plates for just as cheap as any waterstone out there. Having one of the small blue dmt coarse stones, is pretty much all someone would need to get a very nice edge on most of these steels, while taking out a lot of the trouble that comes with sharpening them. 

I still remember someone brining me a cpm 10v knife a while back, before i knew anything about this. I tried to sharpen it for them on my chosera 800, which was what i used for pretty much anything i had gotten to sharpen at the time. It was like i was rubbing it on a wet piece of glass. I cant remember how long it took to get a burr but it seemed like it must have been at least 20 minutes if not longer. It didnt help that the knife was extremely dull, but still. 

Had i have used something with like a diamond plate, it would have been the same as sharpening a normal steel. At least thats my experience now, when sharpening them using diamonds. 

I certainly think anyone that can afford a knife with these steels can afford one diamond plate at the very least.


----------



## ModRQC (Dec 6, 2022)

Affordability isn’t necessarily my point. Just not caring until I’ll have to.

And I’d still be more interested with comparative results on a few steels on a bit wider scale of grits. 

Obviously I’ve not had to sharpen steels with high Vanadium contents yet. Which is why I’d like to see a bit more comparisons made. Where I’m concerned ~67RC HAP 40 was the most difficult but entirely doable with conventional stones.

I’m not saying it isn’t right. But I think the debate has been settled by those that sharpen a lot of high Vanadium steels a long time ago, that nBC or diamonds are more efficient and producing better edges.

I think the debate is more towards how much better with a certain steel up to what grits compared with what one can do with conventional stones. People already have those and make do with them. One steel at one grit isn’t saying anything much we didn’t know.


----------



## stringer (Dec 6, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Affordability isn’t necessarily my point. Just not caring until I’ll have to.



Same here. Whenever I decide I have to have a knife that needs diamond plates I'll get diamond plates. Until then I have more knives and stones than I can use in a lifetime that I'm perfectly happy with.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Affordability isn’t necessarily my point. Just not caring until I’ll have to.
> 
> And I’d still be more interested with comparative results on a few steels on a bit wider scale of grits.
> 
> ...


Well. This is a thread about sharpening high vanadium carbide steels.

I would also like to see more comparison done. Because i would think with the tests the science of sharp did. Sharpening on a diamond plate, is more like sharpening with sandpaper, than sharpening on a stone. 

I think if diamond abrasives were going to be testes as an abrasive, against the softer ones, a test using resin bonded, or vitrified diamond stones would be more appropriate.

Diamond plates in general arent really known for giving fine finishes, but i do find they actually can give really nice bitey edges. Particularly for something general purpose.

As far as tests go. Its anecdotal, but all the people ive seen doing things like rope cut, or cardboard cut tests, when using steels with pretty much any amount of mc carbide, tended to get better results when finishing with diamond abrasives. So i would think hap 40 would fall under that.

Besides just that part, when your sharpening. Having to take more time on a given stone. Introduces more chance to round the apex. Leading to a duller end result.


----------



## ModRQC (Dec 6, 2022)

Again, as I said I do not disagree with any of it. Or that this is the right thread for it - and well yours as well. 

From the start my point being that the real debate is to go deeper into this comparison. Otherwise and for my needs another single example doesn’t answer anything more than what I already know, and still doesn’t drive me to buy cBN or diamonds. So the title Debate is finally over… well it’s a bit sensational for something that’s been done before.

Anyways…


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Again, as I said I do not disagree with any of it. Or that this is the right thread for it - and well yours as well.
> 
> From the start my point being that the real debate is to go deeper into this comparison. Otherwise and for my needs another single example doesn’t answer anything more than what I already know, and still doesn’t drive me to buy cBN or diamonds. So the title Debate is finally over… well it’s a bit sensational for something that’s been done before.
> 
> Anyways…


I think that was probably kinda the point of the title. I mean, it is a social media post, the titles on them generally focus on grabbing peoples attention. 

And i get what youre saying, which is why i said what the thread is about. Its for people wanting to sharpen these steels with mc carbide content. For someone with just a single blade that has them, that doesnt mind taking the extra effort to use traditional abrasives to sharpen it. I could see not wanting to get different stones. 

I also agreed. I would like to see more research done into these comparisons. Just because im interested to see whats actually going on, that cant just be picked up with my pocket microscope looking at the apex. 

Id also like to see someone with a catra tester, test these edges, using mules with matching dimensions, and materials. 

Along with a few more tests, into related things. Like the still ongoing debate some people have about sharpening using belt grinders, vs belt grinders with water misted, vs stones, vs something like the tormek. 

A real test with as many variables taken out as possible would be what is going to make the biggest difference to what people decide to do.


----------



## Barmoley (Dec 6, 2022)

I don't think the debate is over or will be over even after the proof is shown, many people are just too set in their ways.

Anecdotally, many get better edges on high alloy steels with quality diamonds and cbn stones, especially with non electroplate type "stones" as these tend to create deeper scratches and put more stress on the edge. Moreover, many claim that at lower grit conventional stones work as well as diamond and cbn stones on high alloy steels because the abrasive is larger than the MC carbides, so it is absolutely appropriate for Shawn to show that even at 400 grit cbn works better than SiC on a steel like 15V. If anything at higher grit it should work even better.

Here's some material that might answer some of the questions raised.









Does Sharpening with a Grinder Ruin Your Edge? - Knife Steel Nerds


You have to sharpen a new knife a few times to get it cutting well. Right? Or do you? Are knife manufacturers improperly sharpening their knives?




knifesteelnerds.com


----------



## btbyrd (Dec 6, 2022)

I have the JKI diamond set with the 1k and 6k stones and I really like them. I'd like to round them out by adding a fast cutting low grit diamond or CBN stone but I haven't been able to find any that aren't very expensive. I'd love a full set of the BBB stones, but they're unfortunately outside my budget. I've mostly resorted to using the DMT diamond plates, but they feel and sound like murder. I guess the finer ones (red/green) aren't terrible, but the coarser (blue/black) ones are unpleasant. Nice for sharpening tools and lawnmower blades, but not for doing chip repair on some HAP40, if you know what I'm saying.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> I don't think the debate is over or will be over even after the proof is shown, many people are just too set in their ways.
> 
> Anecdotally, many get better edges on high alloy steels with quality diamonds and cbn stones, especially with non electroplate type "stones" as these tend to create deeper scratches and put more stress on the edge. Moreover, many claim that at lower grit conventional stones work as well as diamond and cbn stones on high alloy steels because the abrasive is larger than the MC carbides, so it is absolutely appropriate for Shawn to show that even at 400 grit cbn works better than SiC on a steel like 15V. If anything at higher grit it should work even better.
> 
> ...


Ive read that, but people still refute what larrin posted because the grinder used wasnt a 2x72 with variable speed. In fact i saw a huge argument over the topic on bladeforums recently. People cited roman landes, and other things. (Side not: i had no idea those kinds of heats were being potentially created by just using your hand with dry sandpaper. Apparently, the surface about 1-3 microns deep can reach 2000 degrees Celsius, which is super relevant when talking about sharpening.) 



I personally wouldnt want to use a grinder for sharpening, even with a great water cooled system


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> I don't think the debate is over or will be over even after the proof is shown, many people are just too set in their ways.
> 
> Anecdotally, many get better edges on high alloy steels with quality diamonds and cbn stones, especially with non electroplate type "stones" as these tend to create deeper scratches and put more stress on the edge. Moreover, many claim that at lower grit conventional stones work as well as diamond and cbn stones on high alloy steels because the abrasive is larger than the MC carbides, so it is absolutely appropriate for Shawn to show that even at 400 grit cbn works better than SiC on a steel like 15V. If anything at higher grit it should work even better.
> 
> ...


But yes. If hand sanding these steels has taught me anything first hand. Its that even coarse grits will not efficiently remove material. The difference when using cubitron, or wetordry vs diamond microfinishing film to sand them. Is astonishing.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 6, 2022)

I would have to see all the details and validations of the test plan that shows hand sanding can create temps of 2kC. That's well past melting temps. Also, I do not miss BF.

Traditional whetstone ceramics simply cannot cut vanadium carbides. They are softer than the carbides. Nothing about anyone's personal tales of experiences can change physics. Yes you can scoop out enough matrix to drag the carbides out at lower grits and give the appearance of sharpening but it will slow down as you move up. Folks are also not doing their ceramics any good with high carbide steels.

I still don't understand why so many out there have such strong feelings about how their ceramic stones can cut all those fancy steels just fine? If one wants to wander into the world of high carbide steels like 10V, K390, etc. then fully commit and get the right tools to maintain them.

I mean, that's what we do with all our other sharp stuff right?

Also, just generalizing, not directing that at anyone in the thread.


----------



## Barmoley (Dec 6, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Ive read that, but people still refute what larrin posted because the grinder used wasnt a 2x72 with variable speed. In fact i saw a huge argument over the topic on bladeforums recently. People cited roman landes, and other things. (Side not: i had no idea those kinds of heats were being potentially created by just using your hand with dry sandpaper. Apparently, the surface about 1-3 microns deep can reach 2000 degrees Celsius, which is super relevant when talking about sharpening.)
> 
> 
> 
> I personally wouldnt want to use a grinder for sharpening, even with a great water cooled system


People refute all sorts of things pointing out that the test scenario is not exactly their scenario and therefore the whole finding is wrong. Especially in the knife community it sometimes feels like science doesn‘t exist and that knives are made out of some mystical, magic material that is impossible to figure out. There are a lot of variables, but some conclusions can be made even if the test done does not precisely mirror what the user does. CATRA is bad because It doesn’t cut tomatoes, abrasive tests are bad because the grit is wrong, or the method of sharpening is incorrect or any other reason. In the meantime people claim they can melt steel by hand sharpening, how we’ve been able to sharpen anything is a mystery since we should just be melting our edges or at the very least soften them to unusable levels, the fact it doesn’t happen should probably tell us something

It just boggles my mind when some claim to not need diamonds for high alloy steels and at the same time claiming that these steels don’t get as sharp as low alloy steels and that their edges don’t really last much longer either.

In any case I know what I will use to sharpen if I manage to get me a 15v knife.


----------



## M1k3 (Dec 6, 2022)

btbyrd said:


> I have the JKI diamond set with the 1k and 6k stones and I really like them. I'd like to round them out by adding a fast cutting low grit diamond or CBN stone but I haven't been able to find any that aren't very expensive. I'd love a full set of the BBB stones, but they're unfortunately outside my budget. I've mostly resorted to using the DMT diamond plates, but they feel and sound like murder. I guess the finer ones (red/green) aren't terrible, but the coarser (blue/black) ones are unpleasant. Nice for sharpening tools and lawnmower blades, but not for doing chip repair on some HAP40, if you know what I'm saying.


Venev 80 + 240 from Hapstone? Or 80 + 150 from Gritomatic? 

I haven't used them. I do plan on buying the 80 + 240 at some point though.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Venev 80 + 240 from Hapstone? Or 80 + 150 from Gritomatic?
> 
> I haven't used them. I do plan on buying the 80 + 240 at some point though.


Yeah. Ive been wanting to get one if those also. 

I recently saw a bonded diamond stone on sharpening supplies. Made by nanohone. Super affordable (less than 100 usd). Im interested in that one. I cant remember what grit it was. I believe it was in the 140-240 range.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> People refute all sorts of things pointing out that the test scenario is not exactly their scenario and therefore the whole finding is wrong. Especially in the knife community it sometimes feels like science doesn‘t exist and that knives are made out of some mystical, magic material that is impossible to figure out. There are a lot of variables, but some conclusions can be made even if the test done does not precisely mirror what the user does. CATRA is bad because It doesn’t cut tomatoes, abrasive tests are bad because the grit is wrong, or the method of sharpening is incorrect or any other reason. In the meantime people claim they can melt steel by hand sharpening, how we’ve been able to sharpen anything is a mystery since we should just be melting our edges or at the very least soften them to unusable levels, the fact it doesn’t happen should probably tell us something
> 
> It just boggles my mind when some claim to not need diamonds for high alloy steels and at the same time claiming that these steels don’t get as sharp as low alloy steels and that their edges don’t really last much longer either.
> 
> In any case I know what I will use to sharpen if I manage to get me a 15v knife.


Yeah. The magnacut pass around thread was something i think should have been an eye opener. When the people are consistently saying they arent able to get the knife very sharp, using a shapton 2k.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I would have to see all the details and validations of the test plan that shows hand sanding can create temps of 2kC. That's well past melting temps. Also, I do not miss BF.
> 
> Traditional whetstone ceramics simply cannot cut vanadium carbides. They are softer than the carbides. Nothing about anyone's personal tales of experiences can change physics. Yes you can scoop out enough matrix to drag the carbides out at lower grits and give the appearance of sharpening but it will slow down as you move up. Folks are also not doing their ceramics any good with high carbide steels.
> 
> ...


The memory of red rooster sharpening or whatever his name is comes to mind. Him claiming to be able to get these steels just as sharp with his arkansas stones, in one of his videos.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 6, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> The memory of red rooster sharpening or whatever his name is comes to mind. Him claiming to be able to get these steels just as sharp with his arkansas stones, in one of his videos.



It's been a good while but I think his assertion was about honing on a lapped/smoothed black Ark. Still, made no sense.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

Here is a respective quote from Landes, if that helps:

_“Grinding generates energy (heat) and every step of sharpening is
grinding even the strop. This heat can be sucked away by the right
coolant such as water. If the grinding action lacks the coolant,
the heat goes mostly into the torn out part and the body (blade/edge)
it was torn off. It becomes obvious to see the induced energy when you
see the sparks fly (Burning steel!!).

Depending on how hard you go over the piece the more energy is induced
the hotter it gets, thats basic physics. Than the guys come and say
but I can do it so sensitive that the edge will not suffer and I’m
dipping the blade each run into cold water…. Well that is a nice
effort, but when it comes down to the very edge this tiny fraction
is overheated faster, than the eye can see or the wrinkled fingers
can feel. Unfortunately the edge becomes thinner the close you come
to the very edge/point means generated heat will get jammed in the tip.
In addition to that tempering colors that would visually proof this are
ground away immediately when they appear. and Stainless steels need
a higher temperature to generate tempering colors and longer time to
build them up. Nevertheless one can do metallurgical examination that
can proof the issue testing micro hardness There are some old german
study’s that examined this issue in the very detail.

I had a book dedicated to general grinding methods, in this book i found
a test application. A normal steel block apx. 2″x2″x4″ that had a
large number of highly sensitive thermocouples integrated in the surface.
The block was slit dry by hand over a 1000grit grinding paper. The peak
temps measured, walked up to 2000Â°C for split seconds in the very
surface (some microns). Of course the block did not melt since the
volume fraction of induced heat was to tiny to affect such a large solid
piece of steel. But the effect was there and proofen. In a edge we just
talk about some microns of material, here the effect is solid an clear.
Every manufacturer of razorblades knows this and does excessive cooling
whilst grinding and polishing edges, that need to hold an super sharp
edge for very long. It seems just some the magic makers out of the
custom knife scene think, the physical principles like this, do not
apply to them….”_

this is the quote from roman landes that was posted on bladeforums. I would probably need to be able to read german to find the original source. Ill look more.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> It's been a good while but I think his assertion was about honing on a lapped/smoothed black Ark. Still, made no sense.


Could have been. I just vaguely remember it.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

Man. Cliff stamp .coms payments lapsed. Thats sad. I knew he passed away. I had hoped it would some how get kept open. I know he had a ton of information on that site. I may not have agreed with everything cliff stamp said all the time, but still. I know he had a lot of worthwhile things there.


----------



## ModRQC (Dec 6, 2022)

All of the above pretty much what I said from the onset. All I’ve ever seen much eveywhere is comparing lower grits. It’s all good that it’s the most competitive segment. It’s all good that even there we have clear indicators with efficiency. I’m not « stuck » into any old ways (sharpening since barely two years and a half). 

I’ve got stones and they made do. I’m not intending to be satisfied with any leveling edge out of any 400 grits. What I need to see from folks much better experienced and equipped than me is results as compared with any so skills they’ll put into regular abrasives on a telling enough range of grits.

30x the time spent? At HAP 40 levels 2 mins to 60 minutes is squarely ludicrous. 10x times at worst - say VG-10 vs White #2 or HAP 40 vs Victorinox kind of strain. 30x times still ridiculous.

Unless… I’ve said already… I’ve not had to deal with serious high V pms.

Otherwise sue me or something but I see no point spending a dime more and nothing much that squares the real debate out here.


----------



## ModRQC (Dec 6, 2022)

If needed for you to fit it squarely into your playhouse roofs, I’ve shed the roof away two years ago and been good since. I don’t cry baby about it neither. I just got there thinking what stones do I have that do it?


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 6, 2022)

I dont even think anyone here is arguing with you about this. Whats your problem?


----------



## Deadboxhero (Dec 7, 2022)

Hap 40 is not a high carbide, high vanadium steel.

Hap 40 only has 8% total carbide volume and only 2.5% of that is vanadium carbide.

CPM 15V is 23% Vanadium carbide volume, the steel is at 65rc tempered.

If you are up for it we could look at your edge under the microscope at high magnification and also test the sharpness.




ModRQC said:


> All of the above pretty much what I said from the onset. All I’ve ever seen much eveywhere is comparing lower grits. It’s all good that it’s the most competitive segment. It’s all good that even there we have clear indicators with efficiency. I’m not « stuck » into any old ways (sharpening since barely two years and a half).
> 
> I’ve got stones and they made do. I’m not intending to be satisfied with any leveling edge out of any 400 grits. What I need to see from folks much better experienced and equipped than me is results as compared with any so skills they’ll put into regular abrasives on a telling enough range of grits.
> 
> ...


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 7, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Also, I do not miss BF.


Also. I will say about BF. Ive never really bothered looking into the most of the site. I just stick in the shoptalk section pretty much. I feel like that subforum is kinda secluded from the rest of the site. It has the same issues any other forum is going to, but at the same time it has people like, larrin, and devin thomas, Shawn houston ^, and others, at least in that part of the site.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 7, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Also. I will say about BF. Ive never really bothered looking into the most of the site. I just stick in the shoptalk section pretty much. I feel like that subforum is kinda secluded from the rest of the site. It has the same issues any other forum is going to, but at the same time it has people like, larrin, and devin thomas, Shawn houston ^, and others, at least in that part of the site.



For sure there are pockets of great discussion on there. I mainly haunted the Trad sub-forum and then when I ventured out to the general area I was tainted pretty quickly. But no doubt, it's important to be where the prominent players are conversing.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 7, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Here is a respective quote from Landes, if that helps:
> 
> _“Grinding generates energy (heat) and every step of sharpening is
> grinding even the strop. This heat can be sucked away by the right
> ...



Okay, thanks. This is certainly one of those times when context matters.

Also, never watch Bark River finish their, um, knives.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 7, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Okay, thanks. This is certainly one of those times when context matters.
> 
> Also, never watch Bark River finish their, um, knives.


Well now i have to go find it lol


HumbleHomeCook said:


> For sure there are pockets of great discussion on there. I mainly haunted the Trad sub-forum and then when I ventured out to the general area I was tainted pretty quickly. But no doubt, it's important to be where the prominent players are conversing.


Yeah. I don't think ive ever seen that part. 

I checked out the sharpening section there, but it didn't look like there was anything for me there.


----------



## gc0220 (Dec 7, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Ive seen plenty of people debate it.
> 
> And in todays age, someone could get diamond plates for just as cheap as any waterstone out there. Having one of the small blue dmt coarse stones, is pretty much all someone would need to get a very nice edge on most of these steels, while taking out a lot of the trouble that comes with sharpening them.
> 
> ...


Shapton Glass 500 would have taken care of it, and produced much better results than diamond plates. That's what I'd use on anything like that if you're starting with a truly dull blade. I typically use the 1000 grit glass to do stuff like hap40, which it makes quick work of compared to other stones, even say a 2k shapton pro, which is what I use for sharpening most things. That aggressive cutting is also why the glass stones, even at 16k, aren't great for delicate edges like carbon straight razors. 

Honestly Shapton glass stones I think, despite all the praise they do get, are very much under-rated and perhaps misunderstood. The only downside is the price and only getting 5 mm of abrasive. 

The resin bonded diamond stones Naniwa sells are also worth a look if you have a lot of knives made of these type of steels. IMO they're especially useful in the higher grits, that's where they really shine. If you're just needing 1000 grit or below, you can get it done on regular stuff like even a shapton pro, or more ideally yet the glass. Without something like that, I don't even bother trying to freehand a high grit polished edge on stuff like hap40 at 65+ rc. 

imo this is one of the things that makes ZDP such a genius steel for high end knives. Despite what some people say, and boy is there a lot of bs and misinfo and mythology out there, the stuff readily takes a screaming edge and it's much easier to get there than with basically any other steel that offers similar levels of performance vis a vis abrasion resistance and hardness. So the tradeoff with something hap40 isn't just do you want more stainlessness or more toughness, the ZDP is much more "machinable" and seems to readily take super fine edges, the HAP40 is a damn nightmare to deal with, if you're used to sharpening things to the standards of hair whittling every time at least. It's almost like Hitachi knew what they were doing. There's a reason the ZDP is specifically a cutlery steel and the HAP40 is a tool steel that was repurposed for knifemaking by some people. According to Hitachi blue #1 is the best of their carbon steels for kitchen knives, and I agree with them, which is another little tidbit I'm sure people here know about but isn't otherwise widely known.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 7, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> Shapton Glass 500 would have taken care of it, and produced much better results than diamond plates. That's what I'd use on anything like that if you're starting with a truly dull blade. I typically use the 1000 grit glass to do stuff like hap40, which it makes quick work of compared to other stones, even say a 2k shapton pro, which is what I use for sharpening most things. That aggressive cutting is also why the glass stones, even at 16k, aren't great for delicate edges like carbon straight razors.
> 
> Honestly Shapton glass stones I think, despite all the praise they do get, are very much under-rated and perhaps misunderstood. The only downside is the price and only getting 5 mm of abrasive.
> 
> ...


Its only a nightmare to deal with if you're not using diamonds. Which is kinda the point.

Zdp-189. Is a bit of an odd steel, its got i believe around 30% carbide volume. With pretty much all of that being chromium carbide. So you get the same abrasion resistance of steels with a lower volume of vanadium carbides, but much lower toughness at the same time. If youre talking about grindability. I would say shaping any steel with that high carbide volume, on a grinder, is not easy.

Overall i think the term Ive seen @Troopah_Knives use for this kind of thing is pretty applicable. Its a very "inefficient"steel. Because of that high carbide volume.

Someone would be a lot better off going with m4, or quite a few other steels than zdp-189.

And i would say its also a tool steel. Also w1, a2, 52100 is a ball bearing steel, 1095, and 5160 are spring steels. Saying something is a tool steel repurposed for knives doesnt really mean much. There a very few steels that are specifically made for knives, it doesn't mean a steel is better because thats what was in mind when the composition was being developed. In fact it doesn't even mean a steel is actually a good choice for knives compared to others out there.


----------



## gc0220 (Dec 7, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Its only a nightmare to deal with if you're not using diamonds. Which is kinda the point.
> 
> Zdp-189. Is a bit of an odd steel, its got i believe around 30% carbide volume. With pretty much all of that being chromium carbide. So you get the same abrasion resistance of steels with a lower volume of vanadium carbides, but much lower toughness at the same time. If youre talking about grindability. I would say shaping any steel with that high carbide volume, on a grinder, is not easy.
> 
> ...



ZDP doesn't have any vanadium carbides, it's basically all chromium, I think. Some people are critical about ZDP because they believe vanadium carbides to be superior in every way and instance, but I think the ease at which ZDP can be sharpened to hair whittling shows otherwise. Yes, you give up some toughness, but here's the thing, it's only supposed to be used in kitchen knives, and in kitchen knives it's certainly tough enough. There's a minimum threshold for an attribute like that, and it meets or exceeds that. Of course if it was chipping out every time you used it, it would be next to worthless (sidenote: If you want that experience, buy a basic kyocera). I've been testing it extensively and never once experienced any chipping or edge failure in anything approaching normal use. Don't use it in a hunting knife, that's not what it's for. Go ahead and use 10v or whatever. Thing is, for the level of performance you get out ZDP it's very easy to sharpen. Which I think that balance between edge retention, which is a complex combination of hardness, toughness and wear resistance, is what it's all about. This is why steels like Super blue are so popular. It has very little wear resistance, significantly less than even VG10, so it does go dull on the edge quick, but it is very hard which means it takes and holds great edges, and that lack of wear resistance goes with extremely easy sharpening. Takes a minute to get it sticky sharp again. That balance between how quickly it loses sharpness vs how quickly you can get it sticky sharp again is what I think it's all about. I've only recently started testing HAP40 but this is why I am thus far not a fan of the stuff. It takes idk maybe 10x more work to get this stuff as sharp as super blue, but the gains in how long it stays that way don't justify it. For ZDP it absolutely does. For R2 it absolutely does. Both of those steels readily take on screaming, sticky sharp edges, with of course more work than say super blue, but they also stay sharp long enough to justify it. idk if I'm making any sense or just rambling like a mad idiot.

I agree completely about the benefit of diamond abrasives for HAP40 and such. It's not needed with ZDP particularly at sharpening grits. 3000 grit or above, you will get a big benefit to use something like the resin bonded diamond stone with such steels, ZDP included. Not sure if you meant ZDP or HAP40, but ZDP is not a tool steel. It's a cutlery steel. IMO an excellent and very designed and well balanced one. Maybe theoretically on paper, in theory land, it's not well balanced. In actual real world use, it had more than enough toughness to exceed the minimum threshold for usefulness in a kitchen knife. That is to say, chipping is not an issue at all with normal use. I have an absolute laser in ZDP that's running ~20 dps inclusive. Never chipped it once. HAP40 is a tool steel, and not an especially great choice of one, which was then repurposed for use in knives and kitchen knives. Even among it's cousins, I have no tested it yet, but I think HAP50 has better balance of properties, namely similar levels of performance with easier sharpening, that would make it an interesting candidate for a tool steel to repurpose for kitchen knives.


----------



## Troopah_Knives (Dec 7, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> , I have no tested it yet, but I think HAP50 has better balance of properties, namely similar levels of performance with easier sharpening, that would make it an interesting candidate for a tool steel to repurpose for kitchen knives.


I don't really see why HAP 50 would be better then HAP 40. Its got more MC type and M6C type carbide I don't really wee where you are getting the easier sharpening from


gc0220 said:


> HAP40 is a tool steel, and not an especially great choice of one,


I agree. I think most of this post is honestly more a sign of how inefficient HAP 40 is rather than a glowing review of ZDP. A better comparison would be REX 121 where you are getting similar toughness with much more wear resistance and higher hardness (edge stability). For those willing to get diamond abrasives Rex 121 would be a better choice then ZDP.


gc0220 said:


> but ZDP is not a tool steel. It's a cutlery steel.


I guess you could say that. There isn't really much difference between these things. Cutlery steels are tool steels because cutlery is a tool. The patent for ZDP states that it is for "practical blades such as knives, razors, custom knives, etc. that have a small cutting edge angle", while the patent for Cowry-X (same steel different company) state that it is for "custom knives for hobby use, and cutters for industrial use," thus there is clearly a lot of cross over in this category. I don't really think the X steel is designed for knives while Y steel was designed for other purposes is really a useful argument. S60V was designed for knives but most would agree S90V which was designed for other purposes is a better knife steel


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 7, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> ZDP doesn't have any vanadium carbides, it's basically all chromium, I think. Some people are critical about ZDP because they believe vanadium carbides to be superior in every way and instance, but I think the ease at which ZDP can be sharpened to hair whittling shows otherwise. Yes, you give up some toughness, but here's the thing, it's only supposed to be used in kitchen knives, and in kitchen knives it's certainly tough enough. There's a minimum threshold for an attribute like that, and it meets or exceeds that. Of course if it was chipping out every time you used it, it would be next to worthless (sidenote: If you want that experience, buy a basic kyocera). I've been testing it extensively and never once experienced any chipping or edge failure in anything approaching normal use. Don't use it in a hunting knife, that's not what it's for. Go ahead and use 10v or whatever. Thing is, for the level of performance you get out ZDP it's very easy to sharpen. Which I think that balance between edge retention, which is a complex combination of hardness, toughness and wear resistance, is what it's all about. This is why steels like Super blue are so popular. It has very little wear resistance, significantly less than even VG10, so it does go dull on the edge quick, but it is very hard which means it takes and holds great edges, and that lack of wear resistance goes with extremely easy sharpening. Takes a minute to get it sticky sharp again. That balance between how quickly it loses sharpness vs how quickly you can get it sticky sharp again is what I think it's all about. I've only recently started testing HAP40 but this is why I am thus far not a fan of the stuff. It takes idk maybe 10x more work to get this stuff as sharp as super blue, but the gains in how long it stays that way don't justify it. For ZDP it absolutely does. For R2 it absolutely does. Both of those steels readily take on screaming, sticky sharp edges, with of course more work than say super blue, but they also stay sharp long enough to justify it. idk if I'm making any sense or just rambling like a mad idiot.
> 
> I agree completely about the benefit of diamond abrasives for HAP40 and such. It's not needed with ZDP particularly at sharpening grits. 3000 grit or above, you will get a big benefit to use something like the resin bonded diamond stone with such steels, ZDP included. Not sure if you meant ZDP or HAP40, but ZDP is not a tool steel. It's a cutlery steel. IMO an excellent and very designed and well balanced one. Maybe theoretically on paper, in theory land, it's not well balanced. In actual real world use, it had more than enough toughness to exceed the minimum threshold for usefulness in a kitchen knife. That is to say, chipping is not an issue at all with normal use. I have an absolute laser in ZDP that's running ~20 dps inclusive. Never chipped it once. HAP40 is a tool steel, and not an especially great choice of one, which was then repurposed for use in knives and kitchen knives. Even among it's cousins, I have no tested it yet, but I think HAP50 has better balance of properties, namely similar levels of performance with easier sharpening, that would make it an interesting candidate for a tool steel to repurpose for kitchen knives.


I just think the better option in general is, if you want a steel with high wear resistance get diamonds, and go with a steel that has vanadium carbide. Even if its in the same volume (rex 121). You get a lot more wear resistance along with that. Or you can get a better balance of properties with a lower carbide volume. While still not having issues with sharpening.


----------



## gc0220 (Dec 7, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> I just think the better option in general is, if you want a steel with high wear resistance get diamonds, and go with a steel that has vanadium carbide. Even if its in the same volume (rex 121). You get a lot more wear resistance along with that. Or you can get a better balance of properties with a lower carbide volume. While still not having issues with sharpening.



Sounds good (maybe). I'd like to try it out (for sure). Lemme know when I can buy one at bed bath and beyond, you know what I mean? I can only use what's actually readily available for sale on the market. I've messed around with some of these exotic steels not readily available in kitchen knives in the EDC world, and even then my experience is what I stated already. For the level of performance on offer, ZDP has the best edge taking properties I've personally seen. Among steels with a similar performance level it sharpens, and to a very keen edge, easier. The closest thing I can compare it to in kitchen knives is HAP40. I recently got a Sukenari in HAP40. Even taken up to what they're claiming is 68 RC, it's still not performing in terms of edge retention on the level of the ZDP. So on the surface, I just assumed it was a tradeoff of some stainlessness for more toughness. But I haven't found that to be all there is to it. I find the HAP40 to be much more difficult to sharpen to a very keen edge. This is just my subjective experience, sharpening freehand on shapton glass stones. It's definitely pretty much the only steel I've encountered in Japanese kitchen knives that I think I might end up preferring not to sharpen freehand.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 7, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> Sounds good (maybe). I'd like to try it out (for sure). Lemme know when I can buy one at bed bath and beyond, you know what I mean? I can only use what's actually readily available for sale on the market. I've messed around with some of these exotic steels not readily available in kitchen knives in the EDC world, and even then my experience is what I stated already. For the level of performance on offer, ZDP has the best edge taking properties I've personally seen. Among steels with a similar performance level it sharpens, and to a very keen edge, easier. The closest thing I can compare it to in kitchen knives is HAP40. I recently got a Sukenari in HAP40. Even taken up to what they're claiming is 68 RC, it's still not performing in terms of edge retention on the level of the ZDP. So on the surface, I just assumed it was a tradeoff of some stainlessness for more toughness. But I haven't found that to be all there is to it. I find the HAP40 to be much more difficult to sharpen to a very keen edge. This is just my subjective experience, sharpening freehand on shapton glass stones. It's definitely pretty much the only steel I've encountered in Japanese kitchen knives that I think I might end up preferring not to sharpen freehand.


I would say diamond stones are just as easy to get now as shapton glass stones. 

I don't know anywhere i get get both of these in person where i live. 

Same with most of these knives. Theyre just as available as the stones at this point. If you want i can link some sites with these stones for sale.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 7, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> Sounds good (maybe). I'd like to try it out (for sure). Lemme know when I can buy one at bed bath and beyond, you know what I mean? I can only use what's actually readily available for sale on the market. I've messed around with some of these exotic steels not readily available in kitchen knives in the EDC world, and even then my experience is what I stated already. For the level of performance on offer, ZDP has the best edge taking properties I've personally seen. Among steels with a similar performance level it sharpens, and to a very keen edge, easier. The closest thing I can compare it to in kitchen knives is HAP40. I recently got a Sukenari in HAP40. Even taken up to what they're claiming is 68 RC, it's still not performing in terms of edge retention on the level of the ZDP. So on the surface, I just assumed it was a tradeoff of some stainlessness for more toughness. But I haven't found that to be all there is to it. I find the HAP40 to be much more difficult to sharpen to a very keen edge. This is just my subjective experience, sharpening freehand on shapton glass stones. It's definitely pretty much the only steel I've encountered in Japanese kitchen knives that I think I might end up preferring not to sharpen freehand.



It is my experience in the EDC world that K390 and S90V made put my ZDP189 knife away.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 7, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> It is my experience in the EDC world that K390 and S90V made put my ZDP189 knife away.


Yeah. K390 is definitely a good steel. I wish it was a little cheaper, or easier to get.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 7, 2022)

But hey, speaking of toughness, _everyone_ knows Spicy White is renowned for it. 



Sorry, topic stray, but I'm always looking for the slightest tie in to post that video.


----------



## gc0220 (Dec 8, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> But hey, speaking of toughness, _everyone_ knows Spicy White is renowned for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, topic stray, but I'm always looking for the slightest tie in to post that video.



AEB-L is the ****, especially if you take it up into the mid 60's rc. However I have some kitchen knives made by Miyabi and they don't hold an edge well at all, it's trounced by vg10. Seems other people have similar experiences; I assume it's because they're run too soft. 52100 taken up into the mid 60's is another sleeper hit, excellent low alloy steel for a kitchen knife.

Sure if you have a link where they're selling kitchen knives made in the materials you're talking about, I'd take a look. Sidenote I do have 1 naniwa diamond stone I got off amazon for about $150. It's a finishing stone, the highest grit such stone they sell. I have no problems sharpening my ZDP knives, or anything else for that matter, on a 1000 grit shapton glass. I do find it preferable to finish them off the naniwa diamond. For this purpose it does makes sense.




jwthaparc said:


> Yeah. K390 is definitely a good steel. I wish it was a little cheaper, or easier to get.



I thought about getting the spiderco police 4 in k390, on sale recently for about $140, but I opted against it because I live near the ocean and it's not laminated at all. I also have issues with spiderco knives in that they're just so damn ugly. I have zero style but that stuff is just too ugly for even me. Most of their products are like the pocket knife equivalent to wearing tall white socks with birkenstocks and a fanny pack. I just can't bring myself to edc one. Before the fans jump on me, no doubt they are extremely ergonomic and well-designed through an extensive iterative process and whatnot. They are really good tools, no doubt about that. They're just too damn ugly for me. If they could have a baby with ZT, then I'd be all about it. So for now I'm mostly carrying either a boker kwaiken with titanium scales, more usually it's the big pokey ZT in s35vn. I might go ahead and spring for either the blurple military in s110v or perhaps that non lightweight police 4 exclusive to knife center with the butt ugly pakka scales next time they're marked down that much again. 

I was messing with the hap40 kitchen knives again and it turns out I almost certainly have been getting it hair whittling sharp freehand, it just subjectively never felt *that* sharp to me. I didn't really change anything I was doing, but I went ahead and ran some hair over it. IDK what's going on exactly, maybe a brain bleed. It's not poping the hair the way my ZDP and obviously carbon steels do, but it's catching it and splitting it in half or tree topping it usually. In use, I do a lot of cut testing on paper towels, it just doesn't feel that sharp tho. I'm seeing modest if any performance benefits with hap40 at 65 rc over R2 at 63 and the additional effort in sharpening makes this stuff somewhat a dud for me. I suppose it's cool that the edge discolors and goes black like carbon steels but it's actually got probably double the edge holding of good super blue. I suppose that's cool on some level. I'm just not feeling impressed. Maybe the sukenari hap40 will impress me more when I test with it.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 8, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> AEB-L is the ****, especially if you take it up into the mid 60's rc. However I have some kitchen knives made by Miyabi and they don't hold an edge well at all, it's trounced by vg10. Seems other people have similar experiences; I assume it's because they're run too soft. 52100 taken up into the mid 60's is another sleeper hit, excellent low alloy steel for a kitchen knife.
> 
> Sure if you have a link where they're selling kitchen knives made in the materials you're talking about, I'd take a look. Sidenote I do have 1 naniwa diamond stone I got off amazon for about $150. It's a finishing stone, the highest grit such stone they sell. I have no problems sharpening my ZDP knives, or anything else for that matter, on a 1000 grit shapton glass. I do find it preferable to finish them off the naniwa diamond. For this purpose it does makes sense.
> 
> ...


Oh. Those steels. I thought you meant diamond stones. 

Yeah, i can name a lot of makers that use them. A couple have even talked about sharpening on this thread. And both do great heat treatments. If you wanted to get a kitchen knife in one if those steels. I highly suggest one of them.


----------



## blokey (Dec 8, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Yeah. The magnacut pass around thread was something i think should have been an eye opener. When the people are consistently saying they arent able to get the knife very sharp, using a shapton 2k.


That one was hard, the MagnaCut is actually not annoying to sharpen like some of other high alloy steels but it takes alot of time, I ordered Venev to see how that would improve tho. Personally I still think enjoyment in sharpening matters, I have some great splash and go stones that creates nice edge but feels like sharpening on a glass, so I sold them and got the JKI soakers, same with steel, even with same simple steel like white there's just some more enjoyable than others.


jwthaparc said:


> Yeah. Ive been wanting to get one if those also.
> 
> I recently saw a bonded diamond stone on sharpening supplies. Made by nanohone. Super affordable (less than 100 usd). Im interested in that one. I cant remember what grit it was. I believe it was in the 140-240 range.


The Resin diamond? There's some discussion about it, seems they are softer than other diamond stones, which feels weird on edge but great on bevels. 





Diamond stone survey high alloy steels


ping @Steampunk, @SolidSnake03, @Barmoley, ... I'm looking for comments on diamond stones (other than Atoma or DMT) specifically in the context of sharpening Z-Wear, MagnaCut, SG2/R2 and to a lesser extent S35VN, Vanadis 23, Dalman's HSS1, etc.. I only have experience with a couple of these...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com









The strange genius of Nanohone Resin-bonded diamond stones


I have a lot of stones. When it comes to sharpening gear, I shoot my credit card first, and ask questions (and pay bills! Oh, the bills!) later. That's how I know that the Nanohone resin-bonded diamond stones are something different. Very different. They feel like hard rubber. They look like a...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





That said I'd say buy the knife not the steel, most steel above level of white2/1095 are really good at edge holding, at least for me, so wear resistance is not really a problem for me. Of course novelties like ApexUltra are interesting, tho, good toughness and wear resistance, high hardness and really fun on the stone. Even it is only at the wear resistance level of Aeb-L I'd still choose it over many pm steel.


----------



## blokey (Dec 8, 2022)

The problem I see with Hap40 and ZDP189 is there simply aren't many knives I want to buy with them, mostly Seki knives with fancy handle and mediocre grind.


----------



## gc0220 (Dec 8, 2022)

Yeah for sure, magnacut gets it's abrasion resistance from vanadium carbides, which makes machining and sharpening a *****. If you're used to dealing with super blue or whatever and you jump to something like that without knowing what you're in for you will be lost and hopeless. I think it's an interesting steel and a really good option for something like a custom hunting knife, I just don't see any real application for using it in a kitchen knife. It's not going to fill any gaps that could exist in what's already available. Though it would be interesting to see it run near the mid 60s rc and with crazy thin grinds to take advantage of the toughness. That would make for a high performing extremely stainless laser without being delicate, and probably not bad to sharpen thanks to the thinness. I'm much more interested in another steel the same fella created in Apex Ultra. This stuff I have not tried and seems very interesting and appealing. If it as fine grained as they're saying, it looks like something with high potential for high end and custom kitchen knives. Trying something like that is on my short list for sure.

Another issue with HAP40 though is it's again not intended for use in knives, it's difficult to work with. So many blades with warps in them it's ridiculous. Just don't be surprised if you get a hap40 kitchen knife and it has a warp. Not an issue on ZDP, and neither is sharpening. The potential issues with ZDP, some people don't like that it claims to be stainless but it's more like the better end of semi-stainless. Well, idk. In my book stainless means stain less. It's certainly a lot more stainless than an actual semi-stainless tool steel like HAP40. Aside from that it's nowhere near tough enough to be used in something like a hunting knife. I don't find it to be an issue in kitchen knives, even laser grinds with very acute edge bevels. It's the only "commonly" available kitchen knife steel I've seen that can put up with extended use on hardwood cutting boards and retain its fine edge. By the time this stuff loses it's fine edge a lot of other kitchen knife steels are completely shot. If you can't tell I'm a fan.


----------



## ptolemy (Dec 8, 2022)

Has anyone used DMD Diamond Resin Stones to try on Magnacut or other Vanadium carbide blades?


----------



## blokey (Dec 8, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> Yeah for sure, magnacut gets it's abrasion resistance from vanadium carbides, which makes machining and sharpening a *****. If you're used to dealing with super blue or whatever and you jump to something like that without knowing what you're in for you will be lost and hopeless. I think it's an interesting steel and a really good option for something like a custom hunting knife, I just don't see any real application for using it in a kitchen knife. It's not going to fill any gaps that could exist in what's already available. Though it would be interesting to see it run near the mid 60s rc and with crazy thin grinds to take advantage of the toughness. That would make for a high performing extremely stainless laser without being delicate, and probably not bad to sharpen thanks to the thinness. I'm much more interested in another steel the same fella created in Apex Ultra. This stuff I have not tried and seems very interesting and appealing. If it as fine grained as they're saying, it looks like something with high potential for high end and custom kitchen knives. Trying something like that is on my short list for sure.
> 
> Another issue with HAP40 though is it's again not intended for use in knives, it's difficult to work with. So many blades with warps in them it's ridiculous. Just don't be surprised if you get a hap40 kitchen knife and it has a warp. Not an issue on ZDP, and neither is sharpening. The potential issues with ZDP, some people don't like that it claims to be stainless but it's more like the better end of semi-stainless. Well, idk. In my book stainless means stain less. It's certainly a lot more stainless than an actual semi-stainless tool steel like HAP40. Aside from that it's nowhere near tough enough to be used in something like a hunting knife. I don't find it to be an issue in kitchen knives, even laser grinds with very acute edge bevels. It's the only "commonly" available kitchen knife steel I've seen that can put up with extended use on hardwoood cutting boards and retain its fine edge. By the time this stuff loses it's fine edge most knife steels are completely shot. If you can't tell I'm a fan.


Personally I see MagnaCut as a direct PM upgrade of Aeb-L, with good toughness it could be an excellent steel for Chinese chef knife which involve more chopping and need to be more impact resistant. So far while there are VG 10 and SG2 cleaver they seem to be thicker at the edge to compensate for toughness, Abe-l and 52100 is an excellent option for the cleaver which can sustain a thin geometry, I’d expect MagnaCut to do the same with higher wear resistance. Tho that said it is hardly a requirement since 52100 at 64 hrc already have good enough edge retention for me, so really in the end it comes down to maker and grind.


----------



## gc0220 (Dec 8, 2022)

blokey said:


> Personally I see MagnaCut as a direct PM upgrade of Aeb-L, with good toughness it could be an excellent steel for Chinese chef knife which involve more chopping and need to be more impact resistant. So far while there are VG 10 and SG2 cleaver they seem to be thicker at the edge to compensate for toughness, Abe-l and 52100 is an excellent option for the cleaver which can sustain a thin geometry, I’d expect MagnaCut to do the same with higher wear resistance. Tho that said it is hardly a requirement since 52100 at 64 hrc already have good enough edge retention for me, so really in the end it comes down to maker and grind.


I think you're spot on the money with all everything that was said.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 8, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> Yeah for sure, magnacut gets it's abrasion resistance from vanadium carbides, which makes machining and sharpening a *****. If you're used to dealing with super blue or whatever and you jump to something like that without knowing what you're in for you will be lost and hopeless. I think it's an interesting steel and a really good option for something like a custom hunting knife, I just don't see any real application for using it in a kitchen knife. It's not going to fill any gaps that could exist in what's already available. Though it would be interesting to see it run near the mid 60s rc and with crazy thin grinds to take advantage of the toughness. That would make for a high performing extremely stainless laser without being delicate, and probably not bad to sharpen thanks to the thinness. I'm much more interested in another steel the same fella created in Apex Ultra. This stuff I have not tried and seems very interesting and appealing. If it as fine grained as they're saying, it looks like something with high potential for high end and custom kitchen knives. Trying something like that is on my short list for sure.
> 
> Another issue with HAP40 though is it's again not intended for use in knives, it's difficult to work with. So many blades with warps in them it's ridiculous. Just don't be surprised if you get a hap40 kitchen knife and it has a warp. Not an issue on ZDP, and neither is sharpening. The potential issues with ZDP, some people don't like that it claims to be stainless but it's more like the better end of semi-stainless. Well, idk. In my book stainless means stain less. It's certainly a lot more stainless than an actual semi-stainless tool steel like HAP40. Aside from that it's nowhere near tough enough to be used in something like a hunting knife. I don't find it to be an issue in kitchen knives, even laser grinds with very acute edge bevels. It's the only "commonly" available kitchen knife steel I've seen that can put up with extended use on hardwood cutting boards and retain its fine edge. By the time this stuff loses it's fine edge a lot of other kitchen knife steels are completely shot. If you can't tell I'm a fan.


It sounds to me you kinda named exact gap that magnacut could fill lol.

Its in my opinion, just about perfect as a high wear resistance steel for kitchen knives, able to get hard enough, while being tough enough to handle a thin grind, and also having incredible stain resistance.

Im currently working on a nakiri in magnacut at the moment. I thought it would be the perfect steel for what im going for. Especially since im intending this to be a laser i would say a nakiri generally should be anyway. The heat treatment i went for should have left it in the 64-65 hrc range (unfortunately, i dont have a tester so im having to make assumptions based on the protocol i used) The current directly behind the edge thickness is 3.5 thousandths (.1mm), but its going to need a final sharpening at the end, and i fully expect it to loose a touch of that thinness but should be under 5 thousandths still.


----------



## Troopah_Knives (Dec 8, 2022)

I think I overall agree with your points I just wanted to point out a few things to avoid any confusion.


gc0220 said:


> If it as fine grained as they're saying, it looks like something with high potential for high end and custom kitchen knives


I don't think Apex Ultra is particularly more or less fine-grained than other low-alloy steels. I'm not quite sure where this idea is coming from


gc0220 said:


> Another issue with HAP40 though is it's again not intended for use in knives, it's difficult to work with. So many blades with warps in them it's ridiculous.


Hap40 isn't really more prone to warping than any other steel. In fact, if anything it has better dimensional stability than steels like ZDP because it is usually tempered in the high temp (>1000F) range. I wouldn't blame the steel for something that seems to just be a factor of the makers who offer it.


gc0220 said:


> Well, idk. In my book stainless means stain less. It's certainly a lot more stainless than an actual semi-stainless tool steel like HAP40.


Usually, we call a steel stainless when prolonged exposure to tap water does not corrode it. Neither of these steels is really stainless.


gc0220 said:


> Yeah for sure, magnacut gets it's abrasion resistance from vanadium carbides, which makes machining and sharpening a *****. If you're used to dealing with super blue or whatever and you jump to something like that without knowing what you're in for you will be lost and hopeless.


Super blue also gets its wear resistance from MC-type carbides so it's probably not the best comparison. I would say given that the vanadium (and sometimes W) carbides in Super Blue are pretty large its not immediately obvious to me that it is particularly easier to sharpen on conventional stones than MagnaCut. I've sharpened a bunch of knives in both steels now and certainly haven't had too many issues dealing with MagnaCut, although the MagnaCut knives have all been very thin bte so the comparison isn't too great.


----------



## blokey (Dec 8, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> I think I overall agree with your points I just wanted to point out a few things to avoid any confusion.
> 
> I don't think Apex Ultra is particularly more or less fine-grained than other low-alloy steels. I'm not quite sure where this idea is coming from


I think it might be ApexUltra has less large carbide like 1.2562 or AS, which is on their website and main selling point








ApexUltra | High performance knife steel for bladesmiths


It is a steel truly worth of handcrafted knives. It is a low alloy design that is forgeable, forge-weldable and its fine carbides make the steel comparably easy to finish and sharpen. With its high purity and well-balanced alloy composition it has the best toughness of all steels tested so far...




www.apexultrasteel.com


----------



## Troopah_Knives (Dec 8, 2022)

blokey said:


> I think it might be ApexUltra has less large carbide like 1.2562 or AS, which is on their website and main selling point
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure but carbide size != grain size. I guess that's where the idea is coming from though.


----------



## blokey (Dec 8, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> Sure but carbide size != grain size. I guess that's where the idea is coming from though.


I know, I’m just suggesting that’s where the idea comes from.


----------



## Barmoley (Dec 8, 2022)

blokey said:


> Personally I see MagnaCut as a direct PM upgrade of Aeb-L, with good toughness it could be an excellent steel for Chinese chef knife which involve more chopping and need to be more impact resistant. So far while there are VG 10 and SG2 cleaver they seem to be thicker at the edge to compensate for toughness, Abe-l and 52100 is an excellent option for the cleaver which can sustain a thin geometry, I’d expect MagnaCut to do the same with higher wear resistance. Tho that said it is hardly a requirement since 52100 at 64 hrc already have good enough edge retention for me, so really in the end it comes down to maker and grind.


This is a very good way of looking at it. You get the same toughness at high hardness as AEB-L in addition to better corrosion and wear resistance, what's not to like and why would you not want this in kitchen knives. MagnaCut is harder to sharpen, but not that hard when geometry near the edge is thin. If more metal removal is required better abrasives are needed, but that is the price you pay for better performance.

High alloy steels benefit from use of better abrasives. it really sounds like most reports of users not seeing benefits of high alloy steel come down to sharpening and very little else. If you like hard AEB-L or 52100 you should like MagnaCut even more as long as you can sharpen it of course.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 8, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> This is a very good way of looking at it. You get the same toughness at high hardness as AEB-L in addition to better corrosion and wear resistance, what's not to like and why would you not want this in kitchen knives. MagnaCut is harder to sharpen, but not that hard when geometry near the edge is thin. If more metal removal is required better abrasives are needed, but that is the price you pay for better performance.
> 
> High alloy steels benefit from use of better abrasives. it really sounds like most reports of users not seeing benefits of high alloy steel come down to sharpening and very little else. If you like hard AEB-L or 52100 you should like MagnaCut even more as long as you can sharpen it of course.


I agree.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 8, 2022)

So. Everytime I revive this thread. This always happens. Instead of being about helping people to get the best results sharpening these steels. Instead it turns to people saying they either don't want to use diamonds, or they aren't interested in these steels. 

Which is fine. I also get that it doesn't matter much on my intentions when opening the thread, on what others decide to talk about in it. I would just like to remind everyone (especially if they didn't start reading at the very beginning,). That the main point is for people to share what theyve learned about sharpening high mc carbide steels, while getting the best possible results. 

Something with a lower volume of mc carbide can usually get away with being sharpened on traditional abrasives, without seeing as drastic of a change in performance, thats been seen with things like 10v, or even 4v, and magnacut. However the information ive found leads to me being hesitant to use my traditional abrasives on them, even if they do abrade them.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 8, 2022)

My high-carbide steels are all EDC knives and of them the two that get the most use are my Manix 2 in S90V and my Endela in K390. My Endela gets *a* *lot *of use killing cardboard which is notoriously hard on edges.

Since these steels hold their edge for so long I just don't need to sharpen that often. That's the point. On my Endela I've eased the shoulders so between the steel and the slightly modified geometry it just keeps right on running. I'm also only sharpening for myself and I don't need highly refined edges on the knives and their uses.

So, for me, that means I can get away plated diamond plates. Not the best stuff but the cost/use/performance ratio works just fine for me. Specifically, I buy Ultra Sharp brand. Yes, probably Chinese but quality focused and very well executed. I've had zero issues.

I find the 300 and 600 to work great for me. 

I don't have trouble sharpening these steels on diamonds. They burr up and clean up with just a little patience. No biggy.

I also have .5um diamond lapping film on a hard backing for stropping but I don't really use it much any more.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 8, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> My high-carbide steels are all EDC knives and of them the two that get the most use are my Manix 2 in S90V and my Endela in K390. My Endela gets *a* *lot *of use killing cardboard which is notoriously hard on edges.
> 
> Since these steels hold their edge for so long I just don't need to sharpen that often. That's the point. On my Endela I've eased the shoulders so between the steel and the slightly modified geometry it just keeps right on running. I'm also only sharpening for myself and I don't need highly refined edges on the knives and their uses.
> 
> ...


Personally i find the dmt coarse (blue) to dmt fine (red) to be really nice finishers for these steels. Thats to say, its very easy to get a hair whittling edge using plated diamond in that grit range. Course being my preferred finisher of those. I remember when the coarse stone hanging hair challenge was going on i used a bunch of stuff practicing, and that was one that gave me some of the best results. 

I personally think its even a great edge for kitchen knives, especially followed directly by stropping with 1 micron diamond spray. Which does refine it just a touch. Afterwards it can leave a very nice long lasting edge.


----------



## Barmoley (Dec 8, 2022)

There are definitely different ways and methods of sharpening and as long as you get good results that is all the maters.

For example I've had multiple knives from Chris Berry (big_chris_cistom_knives) and he sharpens very differently from how others do it, but his results are excellent. I've had his knives in 4v, 10v, s125v, MagnaCut and all came extremely sharp. Here's how he does it. Results is what matters.


----------



## ModRQC (Dec 8, 2022)

Deadboxhero said:


> Hap 40 is not a high carbide, high vanadium steel.
> 
> Hap 40 only has 8% total carbide volume and only 2.5% of that is vanadium carbide.
> 
> ...


Just another proof no one fully reads a statement. I said as much as I never had to sharpen high vanadium PM.

Insofar as the debate is over see a full page of posts since my last reply.

Wouldn’t put my edges against yours. Just said mine was satisfying on a steel I’m inclined to think I’ve laid out precisely and followed through with all my comments.

God… must I really reiterate all of what I said? Debate is clearly not over with. Title was catchy but the proof nothing new. Sorry that you’re much better and better equipped than I am. But the ultimate proof there is nothing to change the real life outcome much is it? Because the debate is beyond the proof you’ve made.


----------



## Deadboxhero (Dec 8, 2022)

It's not a competition, I'm genuinely curious to look at other edges and get new perspectives and objective information.

On the grand scale, the sharpening world is very small, everyone that posts here on the forum is part of a special group of passionate sharpeners and edge guys that discuss things at high level of detail which makes everything enjoyable.

My apologies if my post came off as confrontation.








ModRQC said:


> Just another proof no one fully reads a statement. I said as much as I never had to sharpen high vanadium PM.
> 
> Insofar as the debate is over see a full page of posts since my last reply.
> 
> ...


----------



## ModRQC (Dec 8, 2022)

Deadboxhero said:


> It's not a competition, I'm genuinely curious to look at other edges and get new perspectives and objective information.
> 
> On the grand scale, the sharpening world is very small, everyone that posts here on the forum is part of a special group of passionate sharpeners and edge guys that discuss things at high level of detail which makes everything enjoyable.
> 
> My apologies if my post came off as confrontation.



Not at all... All posts just seem to either repeat or skate over what I was saying but a vibe was against what I was saying. In this very thread... from the very first page... there you are with mine perspective and clearly delimited limitations:






High Carbide Steel Sharpening Thread


I thought a specific thread for sharpening high vanadium, and other hard carbide steels should be in order. One place for people here to dump their knowledge on the steels, and how to get them razor sharp. First thing is first. Diamonds, and cbn have been shown to get better results with these...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Not one thing I've said since to make a lie or an unthought post of my first real experience with a "tougher steel" as I described it then nor how my opinions were informed since.

That is, that I'd like to see more steels sharpened at more grits with harder abrasives, but that as far as I went, it wasn't necessary - and that's the whole debate, since who sharpens CPM-15V so often? It's no criticism I recognize your experience and where I can only shut my mouth. Changes nothing to the debate still... Changes nothing to the lack of further info that would have me buy additional stones. Changes nothing to the lack of reciprocity to each - my own included - individual's experience sharpening any variety of more difficult steels that are touted to "require" harder abrasives. Precisely since the threshold and end results are still ill-defined, and the benefits and speeds still somewhat ill-defined if already much more forwardly obvious from more expert/advanced POVs as my own.

It's where the debate is at I believe, since we still get a bit of everything different from various levels of experience.


----------



## esoo (Dec 8, 2022)

Deadboxhero said:


> It's not a competition, I'm genuinely curious to look at other edges and get new perspectives and objective information.
> 
> On the grand scale, the sharpening world is very small, everyone that posts here on the forum is part of a special group of passionate sharpeners and edge guys that discuss things at high level of detail which makes everything enjoyable.
> 
> My apologies if my post came off as confrontation.



As one of the guys who seems to focus on edges (rather than polish), you have inspired my goals for the next year to bring the level of my sharpening up. I have good steel, now my goal is to bring the edges up to your level.


----------



## Barmoley (Dec 8, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Just another proof no one fully reads a statement. I said as much as I never had to sharpen high vanadium PM.
> 
> Insofar as the debate is over see a full page of posts since my last reply.
> 
> ...


I don't get it. Why do you comment on debate of what is best to sharpen high vanadium carbide steels if you've never sharpened high vanadium carbide steels? I think Shawn proved very well that for high vanadium carbide steels CBN and diamonds work better. It makes sense that abrasive that is harder than the hardest parts of the steel works better than the softer abrasive. What Shawn really showed was that this remains true even at relatively low grit, this part is new because common opinion seems to be that at low grit other abrasives work as well. Shawn showed that SiC doesn't. Where's the debate? What can you propose as a counter point. Saying you don't care because you don't need these steels and not interested in these abrasives is really not debating it is just commenting for the sake of commenting and not helpful to anyone.

Noone is saying everyone should throw away their low alloy steel knives or their stones. If you want to play with high alloy steels though you need proper tools, why is this hard to understand or controversial?


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 8, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> There are definitely different ways and methods of sharpening and as long as you get good results that is all the maters.
> 
> For example I've had multiple knives from Chris Berry (big_chris_cistom_knives) and he sharpens very differently from how others do it, but his results are excellent. I've had his knives in 4v, 10v, s125v, MagnaCut and all came extremely sharp. Here's how he does it. Results is what matters.



Thats the same way michael christy does it. He holds them in his hand, and gets amazing results.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 8, 2022)

All good discussion! 

Our differing exposures and experiences lend to the subject and allow for people reading and/or engaging to find common ground.

It's always about learning, helping, and understanding.

All good.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 8, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Not at all... All posts just seem to either repeat or skate over what I was saying but a vibe was against what I was saying. In this very thread... from the very first page... there you are with mine perspective and clearly delimited limitations:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I feel like you want to read what people are saying to you as confrontational. That or you seem to get offended by what is said. When no one here is trying to attack you or something. 

My point is, when i've seen people sharpen these steels, even when they test both and they both seem sharp. When using one method over the other, one for whatever reason. Which at this point i think it mostly speculation. One looses sharpness quicker than the other.

@Deadboxhero s post saying the debate is over. In my mind brings up a reason why this phenomenon happens. If one edge has unabraded carbides sticking out of the edge. At the very least it will not be as fine as a completely flat plain. That meets at a fine apex. Even in the science of sharp images that were brought up a while back in this thread. You can clearly see carbides sticking up above the matrix when using sic, and aluminum oxide abrasives. For whatever reason, he seemed to ingore that, but you can see them.


----------



## kayman67 (Dec 9, 2022)

Any area has some misconceptions. But specifics matter a lot. I know that often, very often in fact, there are debates about their importance alone as specifics tend to make everything seem overly complicated. And I know that everyone has a limit of interest. That's not the issue or an issue until everything else beyond that limit is disregarded or worse. If one would buy a performance car and test it on a track, experiencing poor performance (so the very nature of the car), while others would not, at least some things need to be considered from their perspective. We can't expect things to be very "it works or it doesn't for me", with nothing changed about how to improve, if we want to talk about it. Here is no exception.
In my experience, or ours at this point since for years I haven't done this alone, there is no alloy whatsoever that can get a better edge from something like Shapton Glass 500 rather than a similar diamond stone, low or high level alike. I still have maybe half of all Shapton stones now and they are great. I showed at some point that they are able to sharpen even ceramic blades. Not perfect, but definitely usable for the job if nothing else available. So I could definitely make a case for them till the end of anything. I just don't. As good as they are, strictly edge related, they get outperformed by diamonds with anything. In fact, funny enough, low level alloys always performed so much better with diamond, that made some people not actually require other knives for better edge retention. They were good enough like that already. Cbn gets more interesting because it's easier to use right. Unfortunately it's also much more expensive and it's difficult to find cbn stones.


Barmoley said:


> There are definitely different ways and methods of sharpening and as long as you get good results that is all the maters.
> 
> For example I've had multiple knives from Chris Berry (big_chris_cistom_knives) and he sharpens very differently from how others do it, but his results are excellent. I've had his knives in 4v, 10v, s125v, MagnaCut and all came extremely sharp. Here's how he does it. Results is what matters.



This is one method I've been teaching for some good years now. It's also used by some more members here as I found out. It's a traditional method that goes way back and it's a sharpening skill that I considered useful. Overall might be a bit different, but the motion is there. It's a bit different approach as I always say to get the best possible clean edge from one grit and not to pass some issues to the next one as this passing is not going to work well all the time. Also this forced much better pressure control and consistency in general and that's more important with diamond abrasives, especially with plates.


----------



## Jovidah (Dec 9, 2022)

This might be of interest in this discussion... not all non-diamond stones are alike:
Waterstone testing; intermission. Some special steel as a snack. « Tools from Japan blog.
The Shaptons didn't do well in this test.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 9, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> This might be of interest in this discussion... not all non-diamond stones are alike:
> Waterstone testing; intermission. Some special steel as a snack. « Tools from Japan blog.
> The Shaptons didn't do well in this test.


It is, and it isn't. 

What i mean is, some of these traditional stones do very well, at abrading even wear resistant steels. Even when doing that they won't really change how the carbides are being abraded on a microscopic level (that i know of). 

So if i had to do something on a high mc type carbide stone, i would prefer these stones (usually ones that release more fresh abrasive do better in my experience). In fact i regularly do use more traditional abrasives, when thinning a blade, and doing final geometry when i make them. Even on 10v Because im not so concerned about a micron thick apex being formed, and traditional abrasives in the right form can do well enough at just purely abrading material.


----------



## kayman67 (Dec 9, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> This might be of interest in this discussion... not all non-diamond stones are alike:
> Waterstone testing; intermission. Some special steel as a snack. « Tools from Japan blog.
> The Shaptons didn't do well in this test.


Reflects my experience with Naniwa Professional (it's very efficient for what it is in terms of removing material) and the ceramics as stated, but Shapton did much better there compared to the test above (Post in thread 'Sharpening ceramic knives with shapton pro?' Sharpening ceramic knives with shapton pro?).

Also Sigma II 1000 isn't very popular and I couldn't make it to be as most people just don't use it right (not enough soaking - needs a lot of soaking, plus way too much pressure). I always liked it myself for lots of things.

There's another interesting stone that's not there, JNS 1000, that could actually develop a better edge on S110V than most. It's still a glass surface like sharpening experience. 

Still, nothing would compare with diamond/cbn.

Another thing worth mentioning here is King 1000. Used this on a horizontal Japanese machine whatever it was and could remove a chip from S110V like nobody's business for how it should have not. There is no way to do the same by hand using it, though. At least not in any decent amount of time. So doesn't really help, I guess. 
There are a lot of specifics, but most are already well considered and tested by now. Some variables are possible, but again most of the results are consistent.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 9, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> Reflects my experience with Naniwa Professional (it's very efficient for what it is in terms of removing material) and the ceramics as stated, but Shapton did much better there compared to the test above (Post in thread 'Sharpening ceramic knives with shapton pro?' Sharpening ceramic knives with shapton pro?).
> 
> Also Sigma II 1000 isn't very popular and I couldn't make it to be as most people just don't use it right (not enough soaking - needs a lot of soaking, plus way too much pressure). I always liked it myself for lots of things.
> 
> ...


From my experience sharpening these. I would take a king 1000 over a chosera 800 for a high carbide steel. The king hyper 1000 soft even more so. 

When ive used them the kings did pretty well, purely at removing steel. Definitely slower than diamond though. The chosera was a horrible experience though. Would not recommend.


----------



## Barmoley (Dec 10, 2022)

Good discussion on knives in general, not specific to kitchen knives, but touches on the particular subject of this thread.. Somewhat long, but worth it in my opinion, very entertaining.


----------



## kayman67 (Dec 10, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> From my experience sharpening these. I would take a king 1000 over a chosera 800 for a high carbide steel. The king hyper 1000 soft even more so.
> 
> When ive used them the kings did pretty well, purely at removing steel. Definitely slower than diamond though. The chosera was a horrible experience though. Would not recommend.


I'll try to add some data to this, but definitely next year. Because 1000 to 800 is to most like 600 is to 400 in this Professional Naniwa line. Most don't enjoy the 600 at all. But my experience with 600 was always better with more demanding alloys and not the other way around.


----------



## gc0220 (Dec 11, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> Good discussion on knives in general, not specific to kitchen knives, but touches on the particular subject of this thread.. Somewhat long, but worth it in my opinion, very entertaining.



I like Shawn and I understand why he does it, but I'm not sure I like how he seems to talk down to the audience like they're children or something tho. I'm sure being a creator and whatnot it's get tiring answering the same idiot **** over and over again. That said, even idiots don't enjoy being talked to like they're children.


----------



## gc0220 (Dec 11, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> From my experience sharpening these. I would take a king 1000 over a chosera 800 for a high carbide steel. The king hyper 1000 soft even more so.
> 
> When ive used them the kings did pretty well, purely at removing steel. Definitely slower than diamond though. The chosera was a horrible experience though. Would not recommend.


Pressure. Pressure is the key. Check science of sharp for some basic data on "stock removal rates" of various stones, including with various levels of pressure applied. Naniwa also makes some newer soakers with more aggressive abrasive mix. They have a 1k that's on sale in North America now. I haven't tried it but I've hear it cuts like a beast especially if you lean of it. 

I've tried just about every product on the market, and my conclusion is the shapton glass are the best splash and go stones on the market. The Nanohone feels like it's almost the same **** with a different packaging honestly, I'm sure they're subtle differences. 

You can compensate with lower grits, but at some point the abrasive game is going to need catch up if we want to see these crazy steels used more prevalently in mass market kitchen knives and whatnot. $150 really isn't that much for something like the naniwa diamond stones if you have a big collection of these knives, but even that isn't really needed and I only use one at the finish grit level, because 500 SG cuts anything I own just fine. If I have no patience I can throw something onto a diamond plate for a quick and dirty.


----------



## M1k3 (Dec 11, 2022)

Nanohone, in my opinion, is like a Shapton Glass had a kid with a Super Stone.


----------



## Barmoley (Dec 11, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> I like Shawn and I understand why he does it, but I'm not sure I like how he seems to talk down to the audience like they're children or something tho. I'm sure being a creator and whatnot it's get tiring answering the same idiot **** over and over again. That said, even idiots don't enjoy being talked to like they're children.


I totally disagree with your assessment. I don't think he talks down to anyone, but he is right that some base knowledge is required to understand what he is saying. This is not talking down to people it is just a fact. So if you feel like he is talking to you like an idiot I think you are seeing something that is not there. He is a very likable and well natured guy who is doing a lot of work that benefits the community and he shares his results freely.

It does get tiresome to answer same questions over and over again and it is very frustrating when the people arguing with you are unwilling to listen and keep on arguing without actually providing any evidence to back up their believes.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 11, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> Pressure. Pressure is the key. Check science of sharp for some basic data on "stock removal rates" of various stones, including with various levels of pressure applied. Naniwa also makes some newer soakers with more aggressive abrasive mix. They have a 1k that's on sale in North America now. I haven't tried it but I've hear it cuts like a beast especially if you lean of it.
> 
> I've tried just about every product on the market, and my conclusion is the shapton glass are the best splash and go stones on the market. The Nanohone feels like it's almost the same **** with a different packaging honestly, I'm sure they're subtle differences.
> 
> You can compensate with lower grits, but at some point the abrasive game is going to need catch up if we want to see these crazy steels used more prevalently in mass market kitchen knives and whatnot. $150 really isn't that much for something like the naniwa diamond stones if you have a big collection of these knives, but even that isn't really needed and I only use one at the finish grit level, because 500 SG cuts anything I own just fine. If I have no patience I can throw something onto a diamond plate for a quick and dirty.




Pressure really didn't make any difference, and im already a heavy handed sharpener. For instance, the shapton 120. Many people complain about glazing over. I never ran into that, because i likely used much more pressure. 

Anyway, when i used the chosera 800, in particular with 10v (i know i did some others). It just loaded, and felt like glass. Completely different from my normal experience using it. 

As far as getting new stones. I wouldnt really bother buying any aluminum oxide, or sic stones with the intention of using them for these kind steels. I would just ad on to my diamonds stone collection.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 11, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> I like Shawn and I understand why he does it, but I'm not sure I like how he seems to talk down to the audience like they're children or something tho. I'm sure being a creator and whatnot it's get tiring answering the same idiot **** over and over again. That said, even idiots don't enjoy being talked to like they're children.



*No one* has done more to educate individuals in the knife and sharpening community than Shawn. I don't think he talks down to anyone but he does require you to be able to defend strong assertions. Often, Shawn is talking broadly to that audience. If you engage him directly, agree or disagree, he will push you to think deeper. He is very much a "why and how" person which I really respect. I would much rather be teased a bit and pushed and forced to _understand_ rather than memorize.

I'd encourage you to view/read Shawn from that angle and see if you don't have a different read. He's an awesome guy and incredibly generous with his knowledge.

He occasionally pops up here on the forum as @Deadboxhero.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 11, 2022)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> *No one* has done more to educate individuals in the knife and sharpening community than Shawn. I don't think he talks down to anyone but he does require you to be able to defend strong assertions. Often, Shawn is talking broadly to that audience. If you engage him directly, agree or disagree, he will push you to think deeper. He is very much a "why and how" person which I really respect. I would much rather be teased a bit and pushed and forced to _understand_ rather than memorize.
> 
> I'd encourage you to view/read Shawn form that angle and see if you don't have a different read. He's an awesome guy and incredibly generous with his knowledge.
> 
> He occasionally pops up here on the forum as @Deadboxhero.


I think larrin might be up there with people that have done a lot to educate people in the knife community.

Don't take this as me discounting what BBB has done, because i know I've learned a ton from his videos, and posts. Im just saying larrin has done a lot too.

I probably wouldn't have the interest I have in steel if it wasn't for me stumbling on to his older videos.

Edit: I definitely think people can misinterpret things when they're written. Depending on the perspective they're coming from when reading it.

Edit 2: Just want to be extra clear now that i think about it lol. Im super grateful for the stuff Shawn has done, and i agree with what you said. I was just saying Larrin deserves some recognition as well.


----------



## gc0220 (Dec 11, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> I think larrin might be up there with people that have done a lot to educate people in the knife community.
> 
> Don't take this as me discounting what BBB has done, because i know I've learned a ton from his videos, and posts. Im just saying larrin has done a lot too.
> 
> ...



More than some. The guys life work is this stuff, as the kid of a well known knife maker. Talk about living up to your potential and whatnot. He has single handedly made so much empirically based information which was always previously obscure at best readily available to the public and for free. Even relative to a given field the amount of detailed knowledge he has is impressive. And he's still super young and still learning. The amount detailed information about everything from the history and background of various developments to actual materials science and whatnot is pretty staggering. There's so much just terrible totally inaccurate information floating around about the the topics he covers. Basically almost any link you click if it's not his stuff or using his stuff as the source is usually total crap.

just to clarify for the other people commenting. Like I said, I like Shawn. I was just making a point about something I've observed in some of his content.


----------



## Barmoley (Dec 11, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> just to clarify for the other people commenting. Like I said, I like Shawn. I was just making a point about something I've observed in some of his content.


So to clarify, you didn't actually watch the linked video? You are commenting just in general? Because in the video this is addressed why sometimes someone might feel talked down to when it is not the case or intent


----------



## jedy617 (Dec 11, 2022)

+1 for Shawn. Can't wait to get some 15v manix


----------



## gc0220 (Dec 12, 2022)

Barmoley said:


> So to clarify, you didn't actually watch the linked video? You are commenting just in general? Because in the video this is addressed why sometimes someone might feel talked down to when it is not the case or intent


You linked to a 3 hour long video. A timestamp of what you're talking about would be cool.


jwthaparc said:


> Thats the same way michael christy does it. He holds them in his hand, and gets amazing results.


I feel like this guy is heavily depending on his extensive use of stropping for good results. He comes off his finisher, a very high grit iirc sub micron, and goes to 4 micron strop, and then all the way down to .1 micron, step by step in progression. Super aggressive on those strops too. I've watched him sharpening with his small 1"x4" looking stones in hand and it doesn't look particularly good to my eyes. I question if he gets exceptionally good results off stones alone. I'd be VERY curious to see what kind results he gets minus the strops. Someone like Jeff Jewell does freehand sharpening that looks better to me on video, with big stones.


----------



## Barmoley (Dec 12, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> You linked to a 3 hour long video. A timestamp of what you're talking about would be cool.


Not going to happen for a few reasons and I did warn it was long. The information is dispersed through the video and I don't want to take tidbits out of context. I also don't want to do work for you, it is fine if your time is too valuable, mine is valuable too, but the least you can do is not to comment on something you haven't watched. Since you originally replied right after my post with the video link it made it seem like you commented on this particular video. Just trying to clarify that your comment was just a general statement that had nothing to do with the video or this particular discussion.


gc0220 said:


> I feel like this guy is heavily depending on his extensive use of stropping for good results. He comes off his finisher, a very high grit iirc sub micron, and goes to 4 micron strop, and then all the way down to .1 micron, step by step in progression. Super aggressive on those strops too. I've watched him sharpening with his small 1"x4" looking stones in hand and it doesn't look particularly good to my eyes. I question if he gets exceptionally good results off stones alone. I'd be VERY curious to see what kind results he gets minus the strops. Someone like Jeff Jewell does freehand sharpening that looks better to me on video, with big stones.


Like I said when showing the example of this method, results matter not how you get there. Chris gets great results on very wear resistant steels with this method, so regardless of how it looks on the video to you or I, results are what matters. His knives are great too by the way.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 12, 2022)

gc0220 said:


> You linked to a 3 hour long video. A timestamp of what you're talking about would be cool.
> 
> I feel like this guy is heavily depending on his extensive use of stropping for good results. He comes off his finisher, a very high grit iirc sub micron, and goes to 4 micron strop, and then all the way down to .1 micron, step by step in progression. Super aggressive on those strops too. I've watched him sharpening with his small 1"x4" looking stones in hand and it doesn't look particularly good to my eyes. I question if he gets exceptionally good results off stones alone. I'd be VERY curious to see what kind results he gets minus the strops. Someone like Jeff Jewell does freehand sharpening that looks better to me on video, with big stones.



Quite familiar with Jef Jewell and Michael Christy. Just because Michael takes an unconventional approach, don't confuse that with poor technique or being strop dependent. If you watch enough of his videos you'll learn he's keenly aware of clean edges off of stones. Michael's niche is pushing edges to the max to show what can be done, what is possible. And even if he is strop dependent, which he isn't, if he can get those kind of edges that whittle pine and still whittle hair? Well then more power to him.


----------



## jwthaparc (Dec 12, 2022)

Jef jewell does do great. I regularly see him finish with a strop too. 

I personally don't see that as a bad thing. 

Ill be totally honest. At least 95% of the time ill finish whatever im sharpening on a strop. Not because I don't know how to get rid of a burr on a stone, just because I've found it works well after doing most of the burr reduction on the stone, and i can save a little time. I haven't seen any reduction to how well an edge cuts, or how sharp it gets from doing it like that so far.

This part is going to be all baseless speculation, just a warning on that. I also find a little microconvexity can be a good thing for getting a long lasting edge. As well as stropping after a medium coarse- medium stone being one of the better ways to get the kind of edge i personally like to use in a lot of situations. Something like 325-800 grit, followed by stropping on 1 micron diamond, or green compound. It doesnt really take away much of the feel from the stone, while still doing just a bit of refining.


----------

