# Honyaki Mirror Gyuto use and maintenance



## JLaz (Dec 6, 2015)

I am literally close to pushing the buy button on a Sukenari Honyaki W#1 Gyuto 270mm.

I've been sharpening my own knives for 2 years now. I'd say that I am pretty decent on the stones. I've been looking for suggestions in a previous thread and personally, it boiled down into seriously considering a Honyaki Mirror-finished gyuto as a prep knife at work. I really dig the history and craft in making the said knives and if there are performance advantages over the usual carbon steel knives, albeit minimal, I am all for the minimal gain. Although, I am a little held back by the assumed maintenance needed to keep the finish in tip-top shape.

Just a little background:
I use and keep my Blue#1 Kasumi Deba and Yanagiba patina free using a simple rust eraser. I work in a low-volume fine-dining restaurant where organization, precision and consistency is much higher regarded than shear speed. Hence, I am fortunate to have a kitchen that allows me to carefully plan all my mise en place at the start of the day, set up my station properly for every task, have ample counter space for any project.

It would really be great to hear from you guys who have more experience using and maintaining these artful tools on the trade. Will it be manageable and would you care to share how you care for your knives?

BTW, I am literally close to pushing the button on a Sukenari Honyaki W#1 Gyuto 270mm


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## bkultra (Dec 6, 2015)

I've been told they use radishes dipped in abrasive cleansing powder at the end of a work shift in Japan to keep their knives patina free. I happen to own a mirror polished honyaki, but I tend to polish mine more sporadically. My handel is not epoxied on and the blade can be removed if I truly want to bring it to its full glory. If you wanted to dedicate the time at the end of each day you shouldn't have much of a problem.

Small scratches will still be visible on the blade and it would require more work to remove them, but that's another story.

Edit: the product I use is Flitz as well


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## supersayan3 (Dec 6, 2015)

If you work in such a kitchen, having your own station and space under control, you have ideal conditions for an expensive honyaki.

Maintenance is the same with a monosteel carbon. Just be careful not to drop it on the floor, or hit bones with the tip.
I have hit bones with my Hiromoto honyaki, and it has fallen in the floor flat, not with the tip, fortunately nothing bad happened.
But such incidents are recommended to be avoided, because of the hardness and the brittleness of the honyakis.

I haven't used my Sukenaris so far professionally, because my kitchen is very very busy, speed is very important, and I worry about moist within the yo handles.
I have never worked with yo handles professionally and I am afraid of them. In your case, this does not seem to be a problem, since you are running, but you have full control over your space.

As for polishing it and getting rid of the patina, I use three products:

1. Kanetsune Rust clean KB-402 (metal polish - rust remover) 
I had high expectations from this product, since it is made by a knife maker, but I don't recommend it to anyone. It is liquid, and you have to shake well the bottle, prior to use.
It removes patina, but nothing more. It leaves the blade grey with spots, not shine at all! A rust remover gives better shine,but it leaves lines-marks on the blade.
Wish I had never bought this product.

2. Brand: Autosol , product: Chrom Glans. It is a paste. Removes perfectly patina and gives shine, up to a certain degree. Good product.

3. Filtz paste. By far the best product. If you have this, you don't need the above two. Gives perfect shine, removes patina.

Here is a video by Saltydog, showing how he brings back to mirror shine, his Mizuno honyaki. I am not familiar with the products he is using, appart from flitz:

[video=youtube;0TREf5Tejgw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TREf5Tejgw[/video]

Here I have to say, that with the exception of Globals, I am involved with Japanese knives only the last 6-7 years, as in my hometown, you cant find anything, apart from European knives and Globals, and Saltydog, with his videos on the internet and his vast quality collections, in my first years using, searching and trying to get informed around Japanese knives, had been something like a mentor-teacher for me(and Gator the other one). Thank you Salty!!!

Just hit the button and get the Sukenari 27cm. I have a 21cm, a 24cm, and I think these days I will order a 27cm myself as well.


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## jklip13 (Dec 6, 2015)

I've found when chemical metal polish like Autosol doesn't do the trick anymore, diamond spray on a piece of paper towel works well for thicker built up patina. It will take a good 5 straight minutes of scrubbing though.


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## supersayan3 (Dec 6, 2015)

Autosol is effective, up to a degree. By that I mean that it has never failed to remove my patina, just doesn't give the shine that Blitz does.

Yes, sometimes I use diamond paste as well, with very good results. Gives very good shine, much quicker than 5 minutes.
Probably because paste is more concentrated than the spray


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## JLaz (Dec 6, 2015)

bkultra said:


> My handel is not epoxied on and the blade can be removed if I truly want to bring it to its full glory. If you wanted to dedicate the time at the end of each day you shouldn't have much of a problem.
> 
> Small scratches will still be visible on the blade and it would require more work to remove them, but that's another story.
> 
> Edit: the product I use is Flitz as well



Could you expound on how to remove and replace the handle? I would very much like to do that with my Deba and Yanagiba to hit the maki area better with the eraser.

A little scatches won't bother me, I guess. As long as the patina can be removed whilst keeping the mirror finish (wish normal scratches) sounds fine.

Thank you for sharing!

@supersayan3: Oh, believe me, I've gone through the most online material I could and I've watched the linked video atleast 4 times. I was actually originally considering the mizuno but I think the Sukenari fits better for what purpose the knife will have in my workflow (Thinner, lighter, more nimble tip)

I have to agree that Salty's videos have been very informational and quite entertaining.



jklip13 said:


> I've found when chemical metal polish like Autosol doesn't do the trick anymore, diamond spray on a piece of paper towel works well for thicker built up patina. It will take a good 5 straight minutes of scrubbing though.



What particle size of diamond spray do you use?


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## supersayan3 (Dec 6, 2015)

But if you get too many scratches, you will not have mirror polish in the end.

Better use towel, instead if paper towel.

White 1 feels more aggressive, than white 2, to my understanding


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## JLaz (Dec 6, 2015)

supersayan3 said:


> But if you get too many scratches, you will not have mirror polish in the end.
> 
> Better use towel, instead if paper towel.
> 
> White 1 feels more aggressive, than white 2, to my understanding



Do you use the regular kitchen towel? Or I would think there are good kinds of microfiber-esque type of towels for dedicated use.

When you say aggressive, are you talking about the cutting edge? Reactivity?


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## supersayan3 (Dec 6, 2015)

When I say aggressive, I mean the feeling- feedback I get, of how the knife cuts.

I use regular towel. By that I mean the white IKEA towels, whit the red or blue horizontal and vertical lines.

Not towels like bar towels, which are 'very fat'

Sukenari is not thin at the spine, not very thick as well, but very thin over the edge


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## JLaz (Dec 6, 2015)

Ah, thank you for clearing that up. Sounds like a lot of fun!

I think we used those towels back in France. Although we have very similar towels in my current kitchen.


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## aboynamedsuita (Dec 6, 2015)

I'll still respond to your pm, but I've used flitz on my Sukenari and it works well but doesn't seem to remove the deep patina so it doesn't have its original brilliant mirror finish, I'll try and upload a pic but it's currently packed away until I get my custom handle on. I'm thinking of saving some stone mud next time I flatten to use to polish out the deep set patina.


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## supersayan3 (Dec 6, 2015)

How do you intent to collect the mud?


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## aboynamedsuita (Dec 6, 2015)

Probably aroma plate and mist with spray bottle, drip into a plate to evaporate instead of down drain


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## jklip13 (Dec 6, 2015)

Be careful with stone mud, it will haze up mirror polished steel a fair bit. That's why I suggest diamond paste or spray


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## aboynamedsuita (Dec 6, 2015)

jklip13 said:


> Be careful with stone mud, it will haze up mirror polished steel a fair bit. That's why I suggest diamond paste or spray



Good to know, I was probably going to use the Chosera 10k to see how it goes, and work down in grit if necessary if I want it to be more aggressive at first.


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## jklip13 (Dec 6, 2015)

I think 10k might by a little coarse though I haven't tried it myself. If you look closely, even 1 micron diamond scratches are visible on a really good mirror polish, and that's equivalent to 16000 grit I believe.


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## bkultra (Dec 6, 2015)

JLaz said:


> Could you expound on how to remove and replace the handle? I would very much like to do that with my Deba and Yanagiba to hit the maki area better with the eraser.



Marko installed my aftermarket handle w/o using epoxy. If I wanted I could knock it off without much effort and then replace it using bee's wax to hold it in place. He did this with then intention of refinishing the blade.

In regards to feedback... I do find this is one of the major pluses of a honyaki knife . I cant say if white #1 vs white #2 would be noticeable (I don't own a White #1 honyaki to compare)


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## JLaz (Dec 6, 2015)

jklip13 said:


> I think 10k might by a little coarse though I haven't tried it myself. If you look closely, even 1 micron diamond scratches are visible on a really good mirror polish, and that's equivalent to 16000 grit I believe.



What diamond spray do you tend to use?



Would really be a good idea if some could share some photos to flaunt their mirror finishes.


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## Newbflat (Dec 6, 2015)

BKF take off any patina in a hurry on my Honyaki but leaves its own that comes off very easely with Fitz. 
If you use BKF to remove the patina keep an eye out for interesting alloy banding. It can bring out some interesting things if you use a sponge, light pressure and LOTS of BKF. 10 min of rubbing and your blade might look Damascus.


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## JLaz (Dec 6, 2015)

Oh, and how do you guys bring back the mirror finish after some thinning through normal sharpening.


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## jklip13 (Dec 6, 2015)

JLaz said:


> Oh, and how do you guys bring back the mirror finish after some thinning through normal sharpening.



Hahahah I've never seen any non pros do a half decent mirror polish, in theory it's totally possible, I've just never seen it. The most realistic way most pros do it is with buffing wheels and abrasive compounds


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## JLaz (Dec 7, 2015)

Oh, I'm not keeping my hopes up in keeping it a perfect mirror finish. I was thinking along in the lines of a shiny, clean looking finish with a visible hamon line. I've been trying to look for a picture of this but the closest that comes to mind is the look of OOTB mirror blades with uniform micro scratches like how my Takamura Migaki R2 was.


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## supersayan3 (Dec 7, 2015)

It is true, that when thinning moment will arrive, it will be a problem. 

In the meantime, since the thread is related to honyakis, look what I found here:

http://www.aoki-hamono.co.jp/english1/pat e/seika0.htm

Honyaki cake knife, 54cm!!!


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## bkultra (Dec 7, 2015)

You can bring back a mirror polish with some automotive wet/dry sandpaper and micro mesh


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## Chuckles (Dec 7, 2015)

I think a Honyaki would be fine in your work environment. I use one at work and the conditions are far more unpredictable than what you describe. 

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/10794-Mizuno-Honyaki-repolish

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/14109-Let-s-see-some-honyaki-(re)finishes

Polish and hamon are certainly achievable it just takes some time.


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## supersayan3 (Dec 7, 2015)

I am a cook, not a metallurgist, and no scientist by any means, but I found this:

http://www.hitachimetals.com/product/specialtysteel/toolsteel/doc/HI-PM_Series_E-1.pdf

By Hitachi America.
I haven't read all of it, but in page 14, it shows why to avoid aluminium and chromium oxides for polishing and use diamond


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## JLaz (Dec 8, 2015)

Thank you for the links!

I wonder what kind of diamond compounds are good to use. Daily use of diamond spray sounds a bit costly.


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## supersayan3 (Dec 8, 2015)

I bought some very cheap ones from Hong Kong, through e-bay. Paste actually, not sprays. They are inside syringes, 5-7 of them, o don't remember-I am at the job now, microns 0.25, 0.5, 1, 1.5, etc.


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## JLaz (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm now on Amazon and there are a variety of Flitz products. Looking at Salty's video in a previous reply, the bottle, although not fully revealed, most closely resembles the Flitz 16oz Green Metal Polish bottle.

What Flitz polish do you guys use yourselves?


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## bkultra (Dec 9, 2015)

Flitz polish paste

Comes in many sizes but here is an example and blue is paste and green is semi liquid 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001447VB2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## daveb (Dec 9, 2015)

This. Has the consistency of toothpaste. No minty flavor.


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## JLaz (Dec 9, 2015)

Ah I see.

The Flitz in the video looked green to me anyway, that's why I initially thought so. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## aboynamedsuita (Dec 9, 2015)

I was wondering about the liquid vs paste awhile ago too. Here's the thread for reference:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/24748-Flitz-Polish-Liquid-vs-Paste


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## supersayan3 (Dec 9, 2015)

I meant the paste as well, blue silver tube, or silver the new edition


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## bkultra (Dec 9, 2015)

JLaz said:


> Ah I see.
> 
> The Flitz in the video looked green to me anyway, that's why I initially thought so. Thanks for clearing that up.



The green paste was chromium oxide semi paste (0.5 Micron-60,000 gritt)


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## JLaz (Dec 11, 2015)

Went to the small hardware store nearest my place.

I saw this:






Worked like a charm on my Hon-Kasumi Deba and Yanagiba. Put a little (just a little) dab on some dry towel then scrubbed for around 2 minutes per side. so much more shiny than using a medium grit rust eraser (duh?!) and all the patina was easily removed. Some really black residue quickly built up on the towel as I rubbed.

Ingredients listed on the can were: Metal Oxide, Solvent, Emulsifiers


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## JLaz (Dec 11, 2015)

Just an update on this. A Sukenari Honyaki W#1 240mm is in order!

Excited to try out all the tips and tricks you've shared.

I'll get my hands on it on January so I'l post pictures be then.


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## bkultra (Dec 11, 2015)

Congrats on the order. Can't wait to hear your thoughts once you receive it.

Edit: I wish you good luck with customs


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## aboynamedsuita (Dec 11, 2015)

I got the 240 as well, good knife and the saya that came with mine is (almost) friction fit.


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## supersayan3 (Dec 12, 2015)

Hope you will love your Sukenari! I have a 27 on the way[emoji4]


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## aboynamedsuita (Dec 12, 2015)

supersayan3 said:


> Hope you will love your Sukenari! I have a 27 on the way[emoji4]



I ordered one of the first 240s when JCK introduced Sukenari (even before my time at KKF). There were no 270s at the time only 210&240. Since then many more knifes have been added (such as zdp189 kirtisuke & suji, AS gyuto, etc.). Have also seen the brand grow in terms of availability at various vendors.

I had never heard of Sukenari before JCK introduced them, so asked Koki if he had some additional information:


> I am wondering if you have more information about the Sukenari company, as I have only heard of them recently. I would be interested to know how they compare to Masamoto or Watanabe (as examples) if you know this information. I have also read online (not sure if accurate information) that Sukenari makes knives for other manufacturers?



Here is the response I received from Koki:


> Sukenari has long time of knife making experience and it is very rare to see the forge-smith and craftsman try to keep the traditional way of forging and making process (without any compromise), it is much time consuming process for making the knives without recent machine, by many of hand working process which requires skillful experience and techiniques.
> 
> Masamoto is very famous knife maker located in Tokyo. They used to make the knives by themseleves from beginning process. But Tokyo area has very high price for the land (ground), Masamoto could not keep the factory and now the Forge-smith and Craftsman in Sakai city or Seki City makes Masamoto knives. (Masamoto does the final sharpening process and quality control for the Masamoto knives which are also very important for the knives.
> 
> ...


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