# Understanding Honyaki



## Vancouverguy (Dec 14, 2016)

I heard a comparison between a Kato's cutting performance and a Honyaki to be similar on JNS : " The knives we will carry are thinner than the prototypes, but still have the original and very unique grind, as well as the incredible steel, which feels like honyaki, but sharpens much easier. The final change was to add our own kanji to back side that translates "WORKHORSE" " 

Is it only the Workhorse line? or is it ALL kato's? ( I'm getting a Kato 210...) 

Other than that, What is your recommended Honyaki Gyuto for a 240mm? I heard that a Konosuke White#2 is pretty amazing, but there are none currently out in the market.. I know y'all will give me inputs on a Watanabe Honyaki, Please do! 

That Hamon on the Honyaki Forged knives looks just so special! I understand that during the craftsmen's job of forging the knife, the knife is water quenched out of a single piece of steel. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Thanks, 
Gary


----------



## bkultra (Dec 14, 2016)

Ok as a Honyaki owner myself I will take a stab at this. First a honyaki will not hold an edge any longer than a blade made of the same steel and same hardness. Second the hamon is a byproduct of needing a way to be able to straighten out the blade after it's been quenched. Mizu (water) honyaki are mono steel knives quenched in water and they have a very high failure rate because the blade tends to warp when quenched... Hence the need to straighten it. The hamon is purly cosmetic. 

In regards to knives, honyaki blades helped single beveled knives from warping as well... Their purpose and benefits on double beveled knives is up for debate.


----------



## YG420 (Dec 14, 2016)

I have a kono b2 honyaki and have katos from std, wh, dammy, and kikuryu. The grinds are very different even between the katos so its hard to compare directly to the kono. The kono is more difficult to sharpen but also holds its edge longer than the katos. I think what they all have in common is the high hrc. I believe Maxim said that the kikuryus are heat treated like honyakis but dont quote me on that. I highly recommend the kono honyaki if youre looking for one.


----------



## malexthekid (Dec 14, 2016)

bkultra said:


> Ok as a Honyaki owner myself I will take a stab at this. First a honyaki will not hold an edge any longer than a blade made of the same steel and same hardness. Second the hamon is a byproduct of needing a way to be able to straighten out the blade after it's been quenched. Mizu (water) honyaki are mono steel knives quenched in water and they have a very high failure rate because the blade tends to warp when quenched... Hence the need to straighten it. The hamon is purly cosmetic.
> 
> In regards to knives, honyaki blades helped single beveled knives from warping as well... Their purpose and benefits on double beveled knives is up for debate.



I feel like your reply skips an important point. The hamon is basically the visible line of differentiation between hardened and softer steel. And it is this softer spine which allows for ease of straightening.

Also you can have oil quenched honyaki (and i assume other types) not just mizu honyaki...


----------



## Vancouverguy (Dec 14, 2016)

YG420 said:


> I have a kono b2 honyaki and have katos from std, wh, dammy, and kikuryu. The grinds are very different even between the katos so its hard to compare directly to the kono. The kono is more difficult to sharpen but also holds its edge longer than the katos. I think what they all have in common is the high hrc. I believe Maxim said that the kikuryus are heat treated like honyakis but dont quote me on that. I highly recommend the kono honyaki if youre looking for one.



Kono Honyaki in B2? I heard many goods about W2 Kono Honyaki but they're " rare? "


----------



## bkultra (Dec 14, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I feel like your reply skips an important point. The hamon is basically the visible line of differentiation between hardened and softer steel. And it is this softer spine which allows for ease of straightening.
> 
> Also you can have oil quenched honyaki (and i assume other types) not just mizu honyaki...



This is the exact point I was making.


----------



## malexthekid (Dec 14, 2016)

bkultra said:


> This is the exact point I was making.



I figured it was but just seemed to me you missed some words that could confuse some. So wanted to add to it.


----------



## chefcomesback (Dec 14, 2016)

Soft spine also absorbs shocks allowing to leave the steel at a higher hardness where through hardened simple carbon at 64-65 hrc would chip or even break
Usually water quenching gives 1hrc or more , some simple steels like w2 definitely need it but blue needs a slower quench due to the alloy , water adds more to failure rate . Still you can do water quench making sure you are not ahead of the cooling curve or behind So it doesn't form bainite


----------



## Vancouverguy (Dec 14, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> Soft spine also absorbs shocks allowing to leave the steel at a higher hardness where through hardened simple carbon at 64-65 hrc would chip or even break
> Usually water quenching gives 1hrc or more , some simple steels like w2 definitely need it but blue needs a slower quench due to the alloy , water adds more to failure rate . Still you can do water quench making sure you are not ahead of the cooling curve or behind So it doesn't form bainite



Thanks! This is what I'm trying to figure out! Now to the real question! What kind of knives would you guys suggest for a Honyaki option.


----------



## chefcomesback (Dec 14, 2016)

Vancouverguy said:


> Thanks! This is what I'm trying to figure out! Now to the real question! What kind of knives would you guys suggest for a Honyaki option.



I try to steer away people from honyaki unless they have good understanding of sharpening and proper knife care


----------



## bkultra (Dec 14, 2016)

Also keep in mind that if a highly visible hamon is important to you the steel used can affect this. For example white steel leaves a far more visible hamon than blue steel.


----------



## Vancouverguy (Dec 14, 2016)

bkultra said:


> Also keep in mind that if a highly visible hamon is important to you the steel used can affect this. For example white steel leaves a far more visible hamon than blue steel.



Thanks I'll keep this in mind when I'm looking for one!


----------



## chefcomesback (Dec 14, 2016)

bkultra said:


> Also keep in mind that if a highly visible hamon is important to you the steel used can affect this. For example white steel leaves a far more visible hamon than blue steel.



In general ,but also keep in mind most of the hamons in kitchen knives are very planned patterns maybe since only few Bladesmiths produce them , you can still get a very visible hamon on blue


----------



## bkultra (Dec 14, 2016)

Read this thread... Although it is taking about 52100 they cover this topic and explain everything far better than I'm able to.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/1220-52100-hamon


----------



## Nemo (Dec 15, 2016)

bkultra said:


> Also keep in mind that if a highly visible hamon is important to you the steel used can affect this. For example white steel leaves a far more visible hamon than blue steel.


Why is this?


----------



## panda (Dec 15, 2016)

because white is more outgoing and blue is more of a hermit.


----------



## Nemo (Dec 15, 2016)

panda said:


> because white is more outgoing and blue is more of a hermit.



Oh, I didn't realise that :laugh:


----------



## chefcomesback (Dec 15, 2016)

Also keep in mind honyaki knives are forged different than San mai and heat treated differently too , I am talking about true forged clay quenched honyakis not stock removal edge quench ones they appear " Honyaki "


----------



## Nemo (Dec 15, 2016)

So it's the whole HT that's different, not just the quench?


----------



## chefcomesback (Dec 15, 2016)

Nemo said:


> So it's the whole HT that's different, not just the quench?



Yes


----------



## Nemo (Dec 15, 2016)

Do they get tempered?


----------



## chefcomesback (Dec 15, 2016)

Nemo said:


> Do they get tempered?



Yes


----------



## Nemo (Dec 15, 2016)

Can you dictate the pattern of the hamon by where you put the clay? Or is it less exact?


----------



## chefcomesback (Dec 15, 2016)

Nemo said:


> Can you dictate the pattern of the hamon by where you put the clay? Or is it less exact?



When you come for the hammer in I can show you a bit about the patterns [emoji12]


----------



## Nemo (Dec 15, 2016)

Sounds good.


----------



## malexthekid (Dec 15, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> When you come for the hammer in I can show you a bit about the patterns [emoji12]



Hammer in???? Have i missed something? :whistle:


----------



## chefcomesback (Dec 15, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Hammer in???? Have i missed something? :whistle:



No , the original plan, since I am all settled in new shop I will release the date once my busy season is over


----------



## malexthekid (Dec 15, 2016)

Awesome to hear.. . Hope the silly seadon isn't too crazy for you currently.


----------



## aboynamedsuita (Dec 15, 2016)

bkultra said:


> Ok as a Honyaki owner myself I will take a stab at this. First a honyaki will not hold an edge any longer than a blade made of the same steel and same hardness. Second the hamon is a byproduct of needing a way to be able to straighten out the blade after it's been quenched. Mizu (water) honyaki are mono steel knives quenched in water and they have a very high failure rate because the blade tends to warp when quenched... Hence the need to straighten it. The hamon is purly cosmetic.
> 
> In regards to knives, honyaki blades helped single beveled knives from warping as well... Their purpose and benefits on double beveled knives is up for debate.



I'm curious about the edge retention as I've heard some say that they have higher kirenaga, and there's a bit more to it than just steel type and hrc (eg there can be different ways to get the same end result). I don't have the experience with my honyaki and a near identical non-honyaki to say yes/no either way.

When I was discussing honyaki single bevel with Watanabe, in addition to preventing warping, he also mentioned an advantage is increased stiffness which is more important for thin knives such as fuguhiki. Of course honyaki are more fragile too, so there's a tradeoff


----------



## bkultra (Dec 15, 2016)

If you took two knives with identical steel type, same hardness, heat treatment and the only thing that differed was one was forged via Mizu Honyaki methods and the other not... What would make you think they wouldn't have identical edge retention as well? Don't get me wrong honyaki knives are often harder than their non-honyaki counterparts. So you will see a difference in most cases, but it's not because their this something magical with the forging process.

I know I sound like I'm knocking honyaki knives and that is not the case. People just have to understand what they are getting and paying for. The high failure rate adds to the cost, but there are only a handful of smiths capable of producing mizu honyaki knives. So in a way you are assuring that you are getting some of the best work from the greatest smiths.

I do agree that the softer spine helps absorb some of the shock that is placed on the blade, but this probably comes in far more usefulness with swords.

Edit: I also think it plays a more important role with single beveled knives as I stated before

"There is no difference in stiffness between soft and hard steel."

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...i-vs-monosteel?p=188387&viewfull=1#post188387


----------



## malexthekid (Dec 15, 2016)

Sorry but just want to clarify are you talking honyaki in general or specifically mizu honyaki (aka water quenched).

Isn't the extra edge retention more a factor of gettin lg a slightly higher HRC with honyaki than other blades types


----------



## bkultra (Dec 15, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Sorry but just want to clarify are you talking honyaki in general or specifically mizu honyaki (aka water quenched).
> 
> Isn't the extra edge retention more a factor of gettin lg a slightly higher HRC with honyaki than other blades types



In general... But as stated before by Mert quenching in water does allow for you it increase a blade's hardness. 

You are 100% correct the edge retention is from the higher HRC, and any way you increase the hardness has this effect. The trade off is the blade becomes more brittle.


----------



## malexthekid (Dec 15, 2016)

Yeah that is what I thought. You get the edge retention because tempering back the spine compensates for some of the extra brittleness... aka you can push the limits hrc at the edge.


----------



## bkultra (Dec 15, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> Yeah that is what I thought. You get the edge retention because tempering back the spine compensates for some of the extra brittleness... aka you can push the limits hrc at the edge.



Exactly. Ever wonder why you don't see too many honyaki knives made from Shirogami 1? Think about what the trade off between Shirogami 1 & 2 is. Higher % of Carbon in its Chemical composition than White Steel #2, which makes for more hardness, but is more brittle.


----------



## Nemo (Dec 16, 2016)

I'm interested as to why people buy honyakis.

Is it because of:

1) The increased hardness (but then why not just buy a harder steel?).
2) The beauty of the blade.
3) The fact that it's made by an artisan who really knows their stuff and loves their work. So all of the other aspects of the blade should be great too.
4) The fact that the artisan has poured his (I assume there aren't many ladies making honyakis- apologies if I'm wrong) heart and soul into making the blade.
5) The rarity/ exclusivity.
6) Thy mystique of honyakis.
7) The fact that the blade you have is one out of 2 or 3 or more that actually made it without pinging when being quenched.
8) Some other reason.

I guess for me it's mainly 2,3,4 and 7, with a little bit of 5 and 6 mixed in.

Interested to hear your thoughts.


----------



## panda (Dec 16, 2016)

i bought mine strictly for #1 and for it to be monosteel. but i'm pretty sure i'm in the minority here.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 16, 2016)

BTW, can/do smiths make a smaller blade (or two  out of a large honyaki blade that blew in half during quenching, or does the fact it blew already show it was f....ed steel in the first place?


----------



## supersayan3 (Dec 16, 2016)

Because they are alive, they have soul, and they talk to you when you use them (through their feed back)

Plus all the reasons that you mentioned, which come to think about it, aren't they more than enough?

I fell in love with Honyaki at first look and touch. 
I was cautious... After the first cut, no doubts


----------



## supersayan3 (Dec 16, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> Also keep in mind honyaki knives are forged different than San mai and heat treated differently too , I am talking about true forged clay quenched honyakis not stock removal edge quench ones they appear " Honyaki "



I am clueless about the technicalities involved.
Can you please explain in a quick and simple way, the forging stage differences and the heat treatment stage differences?
Or post some links, if possible?

Thank you very much in advance!


----------



## Nemo (Dec 16, 2016)

supersayan3 said:


> Because they are alive, they have soul, and they talk to you when you use them (through their feed back)
> 
> Plus all the reasons that you mentioned, which come to think about it, aren't they more than enough?
> 
> ...



Yes, they are more than enough. I guess I was wondering which of those reasons were more important to other people.


----------



## Nemo (Dec 16, 2016)

supersayan3 said:


> I am clueless about the technicalities involved.
> Can you please explain in a quick and simple way, the forging stage differences and the heat treatment stage differences?
> Or post some links, if possible?
> 
> Thank you very much in advance!



I'm also interested in this. Not asking you to divulge any trade secrets though. &#128515;.


----------



## chefcomesback (Dec 17, 2016)

supersayan3 said:


> I am clueless about the technicalities involved.
> Can you please explain in a quick and simple way, the forging stage differences and the heat treatment stage differences?
> Or post some links, if possible?
> 
> Thank you very much in advance!



Explain quick and simple ? It took me reading 2 reference books one in heat treatment one in Japanese swords , break $$$$ worth steel , test tons of blades in shop and in pro use in kitchen and come to my conclusions , I doubt there is a simple link explaining it all within few sentences


----------



## Nemo (Dec 17, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> Explain quick and simple ? It took me reading 2 reference books one in heat treatment one in Japanese swords , break $$$$ worth steel , test tons of blades in shop and in pro use in kitchen and come to my conclusions , I doubt there is a simple link explaining it all within few sentences



Sounds like too complex a topic for simple explanations. I must say this does not suprise me. Maybe that's part of what that contributes to the beauty of the end result.


----------



## supersayan3 (Dec 17, 2016)

chefcomesback said:


> Explain quick and simple ? It took me reading 2 reference books one in heat treatment one in Japanese swords , break $$$$ worth steel , test tons of blades in shop and in pro use in kitchen and come to my conclusions , I doubt there is a simple link explaining it all within few sentences



Bravo! 
You are a lover and a believer!
Keep on going!


----------



## Chuckles (Dec 17, 2016)

I like mono steel knives more than clad. Don't know why except the mono knives stay and the clad ones go. 
When you start down the Honyaki road you must make sure value is not a priority for you.


----------



## Nemo (Dec 17, 2016)

Nemo said:


> Sounds like too complex a topic for simple explanations. I must say this does not suprise me. Maybe that's part of what that contributes to the beauty of the end result.



Not to mention that you are holding something that it takes probably thousands of hours to learn how to make...


----------



## labor of love (Dec 17, 2016)

Chuckles said:


> I like mono steel knives more than clad. Don't know why except the mono knives stay and the clad ones go.
> When you start down the Honyaki road you must make sure value is not a priority for you.



Wow, that's very interesting. I've recently repurchased a ks(for the 3rd time) and I find myself digging mono for a few reasons. I hate to get off topic so maybe we can PM but I'd like to see a list of your fave mono(non honyaki) gyutos.


----------



## Kippington (Dec 17, 2016)

Nemo said:


> I'm interested as to why people buy honyakis.



A lot of the cost and allure of the hamon have to do with the fact that manifests itself as a visible line in the steel - a line which is hard to control where it ends up, and if done well showcases the smiths understanding and control over the steel and its properties.

When quenching these kinds of steels (fast/shallow hardening steels as opposed to slow/deep hardening steels) forming martensite can be thought of as an on/off switch: You get it or you don't, and it's mostly dictated by a controlled drop of temperature (about 250-300°C within the first second of the quench). This is difficult to do accurately, and the outcome will affect the look of your hamon.



Nemo said:


> Can you dictate the pattern of the hamon by where you put the clay? Or is it less exact?



The random patterns which are easier to create, as minor imperfections wont show up in a random pattern.







Then there are repeating patterns which take more control.






Whichever one looks better is totally up to your individual tastes.


----------



## Nemo (Dec 17, 2016)

Great info, thanks Kippington


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 17, 2016)

"you must make sure value is not a priority for you." - you mean utility vs cost?


----------



## Nemo (Dec 17, 2016)

Kippington said:


> When quenching these kinds of steels (fast/shallow hardening steels as opposed to slow/deep hardening steels) forming martensite can be thought of as an on/off switch: You get it or you don't, and it's mostly dictated by a controlled drop of temperature (about 250-300°C within the first second of the quench).



Are the deep/ slow hardening steels what are referred to as highly hardenable steels (usually with a few alloying elements from memory). Does the hamon rely on not having high harden ability in the steel (or am I completely on the wrong track here...?)

If they don't form Martesnite (and I assume we are talking about the softer steel here), do they then form pearlite grains or do they form cementite in the grain boundaries and ferrite inside the grain or does it depend?


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 17, 2016)

I always thought low hardenability meant possible hardening depth in inches vs feet for highly hardenable alloys?


----------



## Nemo (Dec 17, 2016)

Yes, I think that's the same concept that I'm referring to. As I said, I'm not sure I'm on the right track with this line of thought.


----------



## Kippington (Dec 18, 2016)

Nemo said:


> Are the deep/ slow hardening steels what are referred to as highly hardenable steels?


Yep you are right.

The problem with fast/shallow hardening steels is that if you take something large (lets say, a 100kg sphere of Shirogami #1) and quench it in water, the centre of the mass won't cool down anywhere near fast enough to harden. Only the outside cools fast enough to create martensite, whereas the inside has too much thermal mass to cool fast enough (there is no way it's going to drop 300°C in one second) and so pearlite begins to form before martensite gets its chance. This explains why they are called shallow hardening steels, as they wont harden in thick cross-sections.

We use this seemingly negative property of shallow hardening steels to create hamons. As most people know, the most common way to create a hamon is to coat the spine in clay. Doing this keeps that part of the steel away from the quenchant, allowing it to hold the heat in for long enough that soft pearlite comes into play before the hard martensite has had the chance to form.

Deep hardening steels don't form pearlite anywhere near as fast: meaning we can drop the temperature at a much slower speed and have the entire thing turn into martensite before it has already become pearlite. Some steels can be quenched so slowly that still air is fast enough to harden them. Other steels won't even harden and are stuck as austenite all the way to room temperature - the ultimate 100% retained austenite!

This is not to say that it's impossible to create a hamon with deep hardening steels, it would take a lot longer though...

***I should also mention that shallow hardening and deep hardening steels can both end up at the same hardness. Hardenability is not the same measurement as how hard a given piece of steel can get, but how quickly or slowly it gets there.


----------



## PaulS (Dec 18, 2016)

It's a good knife


----------



## Nemo (Dec 18, 2016)

Thanks Kippington. That makes sense.

To paraphrase: If the steel doesn't cool to its MS point before a lot af pearlite has formed, it will be soft, but if it does, it will be martensitic and hard. From memory, there are some temp vs time curves that describe this aren't there?


----------



## jessf (Dec 18, 2016)

You might have to explain this a bit more. You're saying the reason they differentially harden is to allow the smith a means more easily bend the blade back to straight. But being differentially hardend is the reason they are more likely to warp, and warp more severely. The more bending you have to do post heat treat the more likely you are to break the blade. Also, i don't see many hamons dividing more than 40-60% of the blade so if there's a warp closer to the edge or toward the tip, a hamon at the spine near the handle isn't going to help much. 

I would have thought the hamon was a show of skill in that inspite of the higher risk of warping during quench and inspite of the greater risk of damage during straightening the blade made it through. Mitigating warping is One of the challenges in both fully hardened and more so in differentially hardend blades. A hamon is like a receipt of skill captured in the metal. 



bkultra said:


> Ok as a Honyaki owner myself I will take a stab at this. First a honyaki will not hold an edge any longer than a blade made of the same steel and same hardness. Second the hamon is a byproduct of needing a way to be able to straighten out the blade after it's been quenched. Mizu (water) honyaki are mono steel knives quenched in water and they have a very high failure rate because the blade tends to warp when quenched... Hence the need to straighten it. The hamon is purly cosmetic.
> 
> In regards to knives, honyaki blades helped single beveled knives from warping as well... Their purpose and benefits on double beveled knives is up for debate.


----------



## labor of love (Dec 18, 2016)

PaulS said:


> It's a good knife



Best first post ever. Welcome.


----------



## panda (Dec 18, 2016)

kinda like cooking pork belly, super crispy skin, soft and tender meat underneath.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 18, 2016)

There's blue steel honyakis. Isn't blue steel a lot more hardenable?


----------



## tsuriru (Dec 18, 2016)

Interesting thread. Lots of interesting facts, view, insights and beliefs. Being me, I am somewhat excluded from taking part as I fear I would be breaking the gudlines. I will say this however: 

The science behind the making of a honyaki is out there and in plain view. Those who contrive to brave this huge mass of information and knowledge will soon find it is a bottomless pit and will take several years of university to even begin to comprehend. This is not to say that there are no simplified explanations out there - and very good ones too. However, there is a big difference between understanding the science and application of it in the arts. It is one thing to be a maker of honyaki, and judging a honyaki from a standpoint of the experience gained in making them, and being a user of honyaki and judging them from a standpoint of the experience gained in using them. Both experiences refer to the same group of objects - but they are very different as far as approach is concerned. I am not a Cheff. I do cook my own food - but I fear my knife skills leave a lot to be desired in terms of kitchen work. As a maker of Honyaki I can say the following: 

Honyaki knives are cnsiderably harder to make - mainly because of the reasons stated earlier. Oil quenched honyaki are different than water quenched honyaki. This is not to say one is harder than the other. The difference rests with the nature of the steels used in each of the quenching mediums. While water quenching is as a rule more prone to warping than oil quenching, oil quenching - especially certain steels that are a bit air hardening, allows for multiple quenches. While most of the crystals that grow while heating the steel retain their structure, some reverse back into nothingness. And so, while doing multiple quenches the steel structure is further refined - IF DONE PROPERLY. This kind of multi quench process will not only yield more refined steel - it will also yield multiple hamon lines - not always visible to the naked eye, and yet - still there. While hamon lines are a testament to fine craftsmanship and differential heat treating, I have seen many examples of blades that have been perfectly heat treated deferentially - but did not show a very accented hamon. And this is where application of science to the arts ends. At a certain point, knife making - especially honyaki knives - becomes a dark art. It is reliant on the experience, intuition, and knowledge of the craftsman. In most cases, the experience can be conveyed in words - but many times it cannot be explained to the uninitiated simply because they have not spent enough time staring into hot metal and flames and will not realize what they are looking at - even if shown. Not at first anyhow. In other words, while it is perfectly possible to explain swiming using nothing but words - chances are that most people who attempt to learn swiming this way will not do very well the first time they attempt to jump into a pool of water.


----------



## Nemo (Dec 18, 2016)

jessf said:


> A hamon is like a receipt of skill captured in the metal.


A great way of putting it


----------



## Nemo (Dec 18, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> There's blue steel honyakis. Isn't blue steel a lot more hardenable?


My (very basic) understanding it is harder to make a hamon on blue steel and it is often not as impressive. Very happy to have my knowledge refined here by someone who knows.


----------



## Nemo (Dec 18, 2016)

Thanks tsuriru for your thoughtful and informative post


----------



## tsuriru (Dec 18, 2016)

Nemo said:


> My (very basic) understanding it is harder to make a hamon on blue steel and it is often not as impressive. Very happy to have my knowledge refined here by someone who knows.



Accentuating a hamon line is not just an outcome of the heat treating. Some steels, as you note, are less cooperative in displaying a hamon line than others. One way to accentuate a hamon line - and this is true for all deferentially heat treated carbon steel honyaki is boiling vinegar etching the entire blade after it has been completely finished on stones - and then touching it up again on a finisher. The hamon line designates the boundary between harder and softer portions of the blade. Anything above the hamon line will usually etch differently than anything bellow the hamon line. So, steels that dont "like to display a clear hamon line" can sometime be helped along a bit in this way. At the end of the day though....it's not about the hamon's accent I think - it's about the overall performance of the honyaki - dont you agree?


----------



## Nemo (Dec 18, 2016)

tsuriru said:


> At the end of the day though....it's not about the hamon's accent I think - it's about the overall performance of the honyaki - dont you agree?



For me, this is true.


----------



## malexthekid (Dec 18, 2016)

Nemo said:


> My (very basic) understanding it is harder to make a hamon on blue steel and it is often not as impressive. Very happy to have my knowledge refined here by someone who knows.



Also I think you will find that life was close to the mark.. my understanding is that blue steel is more prone to warping and cracking during quenching hence it being a more expensive material. That is of course on top of traditionally having a softet hamon line. Especially if it is a mizu honyaki


----------



## tsuriru (Dec 19, 2016)

Abura (sekiyu) Honyaki are just as likely to warp and just as tricky to make as Mizu honyaki. Certainly I would not consider one better than the other by any stretch. Im not in the habit of putting one steel in contest with another - it is a practice in futility and does not further any kind of insight regarding either steels in question (IMHO). There are many different kinds of steel alloys and they all have pros and cons all on their own. As far as kitchen knives go I venture to say that a 64 HRC Honyaki (Abura OR Mizu) is about as hard as it gets (or should go anyhow) - and even if it can go higher than that it probably doesn't make for a very fun knife to maintain or work with. But to each their own I guess.


----------



## zitangy (May 1, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> BTW, can/do smiths make a smaller blade (or two  out of a large honyaki blade that blew in half during quenching, or does the fact it blew already show it was f....ed steel in the first place?



They will always try to salvage... a shorter knife ..depending where the crack line, size of crack. Even for Sai Mai knives.. makes sense... 

RGDS z


----------



## zitangy (May 1, 2017)

Nemo said:


> I'm interested as to why people buy honyakis.
> 
> Is it because of:
> 
> ...



as for me... its going to be harder to come by and its a testament of the man's skill ....by my most recent count... there shld be about 10 masters ( pounding steel for more than 40 years in Sakai whose honyakis are sought after and I think it wld be generous to say that abt 5 are actively making.... for economic reasons or health reasons and some hv recently passed or taken to Association responsibilities.. 

So it will be harder to come by and comparing to Western custom knives... its a good price and I got to give it to the guy who is still pounding steel at that age.. mid 60s to 70. 

Rgd


----------

