# The Greatest Sharpening Stone in the World



## cotedupy (Feb 24, 2022)

Right, now that I have your attention... I am not going to disappoint. Here is a picture of it:







And another:








Doesn't look like much does it? But those in the know, will know.

This is an 8x2" vitrified Aluminium Oxide combination stone rolling at around 140 grit on one side and 600-800 on the other, which can be used with either water or oil. It's extraordinarily hard and slow-wearing; this will long outlive me, my children, and probably theirs too. My cousin in fact has the exact same stone which belonged to our grandfather. But despite its hardness, it's also extremely fast - far faster than any traditional waterstone - while finishing quite fine enough for general kitchen knife purpose. It's been in continuous production for well over a hundred years, and I'd guess is probably the best-selling sharpening stone of all time. Which is unsurprising considering it's also very cheap - you can easily buy it for $20 or less.

Every single person on this forum should have one these. Because it's the best, most efficacious, well-designed, and complete whetstone ever made: the Pike-Norton India Coarse and Fine.


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## birdsfan (Feb 24, 2022)

Well based on that strong endorsement, and your well established reputation as stone aficionado, I just bought one on the Bay.....for $20(as promised)


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## aecadiz (Feb 24, 2022)

How does it work for polishing? 

Would you be kind enough to share a scratch pattern picture?

Cheers

Andres


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## KingShapton (Feb 24, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Every single person on this forum should have one these. Because it's the best, most efficacious, well-designed, and complete whetstone ever made: the Pike-Norton India Coarse and Fine.


The Greatest Sharpening Stone in the World - that's a statement!

I only know the medium India that you sent me, but I was so impressed that I ordered the coarse India and the fine India from Norton.

Judging by the color of the fine side in your picture, could it possibly be the extra fine Norton that was also made earlier? I once sent you something about it... although of course the color in the picture can also be deceptive, maybe just a question of exposure...


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## btbyrd (Feb 24, 2022)

How slow wearing is "slow wearing"? I hate caring for stones and have been looking for a coarse stone to complement my JKI 1k and 6k diamond stones. Vitrified diamond or CBN are what I'd prefer to own, but the prices on those are bonkers. If I can get a super slow-dishing stone that cuts fast for $20... well, that'd be just swell.


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## cotedupy (Feb 24, 2022)

btbyrd said:


> How slow wearing is "slow wearing"?



Haha! How long is a piece of string? I'll try to describe it though...

They are incomparably harder than any other whetstone stone I know, and make translucent Arkansas look like play-doh. You cannot flatten one, even a tiny amount, on a belt grinder or sic powder, and it'll kill an Atoma plate in 60 seconds. I had to break 2" off a Fine India recently - it took me 20 minutes. And I was using an axe.


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## cotedupy (Feb 24, 2022)

aecadiz said:


> How does it work for polishing?
> 
> Would you be kind enough to share a scratch pattern picture?
> 
> ...



I can if you want(?) But it doesn't polish - it's way, way too hard.


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## KingShapton (Feb 24, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> You cannot flatten one, even a tiny amount on a belt grinder or sic powder, and it'll kill and Atoma plate in 60 seconds.


Loose sic powder but coarser than #60, takes hours with #60, I did that once and never again!

Next time I'll try #36 or #24. The trick is to add new sic powder every 30-60 seconds. The stone is so hard it grinds up the sic powder almost instantly and it becomes far too fine to flatten.


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## cotedupy (Feb 24, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> The Greatest Sharpening Stone in the World - that's a statement!
> 
> I only know the medium India that you sent me, but I was so impressed that I ordered the coarse India and the fine India from Norton.
> 
> Judging by the color of the fine side in your picture, could it possibly be the extra fine Norton that was also made earlier? I once sent you something about it... although of course the color in the picture can also be deceptive, maybe just a question of exposure...



Ah aces - glad you liked the Medium, it's a brilliant stone. Probably actually my favourite of the three on its own, but the coarse and fine versions are superb too, and when stuck together are basically flawless!

The colour thing is an interesting one - Norton seem to changed around the colours of the different 'grits' a lot, both over time, and depending on the market. Which is a little annoying of them! I don't know if I've ever had an 'Extra Fine', but I'm pretty certain this would be the standard 'Coarse and Fine'. I'm not sure in fact whether they've ever made other India combis, apart obviously from the holy grail of sharpening stones... Coarse India x Washita .


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## cotedupy (Feb 24, 2022)

birdsfan said:


> your well established reputation as stone aficionado



Eeep!

TBH actually this is the stone I'd be most confident in recommending to anybody and everybody. It's just blindingly good - you'll love it .

Just to note though - sometimes they come 'oil-filled'. So if you do want to use with water (and you can happily) you'd want to get that out by soaking in a degreaser for a day or so. Simple Green or any other kind.


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## aecadiz (Feb 24, 2022)

When I read this post I thought I could finally replace the #220 stone for something to kill low spots.... 

Do you think it would work for such a task? 

I like my Naniwa Super Stone, but it needs a flattening every time I use it


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## cotedupy (Feb 24, 2022)

aecadiz said:


> When I read this post I thought I could finally replace the #220 stone for something to kill low spots....
> 
> Do you think it would work for such a task?
> 
> I like my Naniwa Super Stone, but it needs a flattening every time I use it



The coarse India will take low spots out of a knife in no time at all - many magnitudes faster than a SS 220.

It's just that the stone basically isn't friable in any way at all - it doesn't really have a binder as such. So the finish / scratch pattern it leaves is quite different to Japanese waterstones.


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## deltaplex (Feb 24, 2022)

They are really great, I'm doing a decent amount of cleaning up ODC knives as part of honing my skills to take care of the nicer knives I've gathered over the years, and I use one or more of the three for most of the rough work before jumping to a SG500. Both the medium and the course aggressively remove metal and as mentioned upthread, it's very slow to dish and very hard to make any progress trying to flatten with SiC and a floor tile.


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## M1k3 (Feb 24, 2022)

Nanohone NL-4 is up to the task of flattening India's and Crystolon's. But seems a bit overkill for a $20 stone.

There's always the 3 stone method though. Which would be a good reason to get a Crystolon to go with an India.


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## SilverSwarfer (Feb 24, 2022)

I use my Crystolon Combo to lap my Norton India Combo. Or SiC powder. I hesitate using the NL-4 on either for fear of unwarranted wear of the NL-4. 

I had been oilstone-averse forever, for no good reason. Having started sharpening on water stones, I suppose I foolishly assumed that inexpensive tools could/would never perform on the level of any of my fancy-pants Japanese stones. I was wrong. If you are sharpening 'for fun/hobby' then the Norton stones are not very compelling. But given some task at hand, if a blade or tool needs maintenance: I can't think of any better option that is extremely low-maintenance, to get something sharp quickly. 

These really are an excellent option for any -practical- sharpening tasks. The value is unbeatable here... $50USD could get you 1 Crystolon Combo + 1 India Combo; combined sharpening service to satisfy a Mongolian Horde.


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## M1k3 (Feb 24, 2022)

SilverSwarfer said:


> I use my Crystolon Combo to lap my Norton India Combo. Or SiC powder. I hesitate using the NL-4 on either for fear of unwarranted wear of the NL-4.


I wrote Nanohone customer service regarding the NL-4 and Crystolon/India stones. They said it wouldn't be a problem. I used one of the NL-4's for a week and didn't destroy it flattening India's and Crystolon's. Wasn't heavy dishing... but it worked..


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## KingShapton (Feb 24, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I wrote Nanohone customer service regarding the NL-4 and Crystolon/India stones. They said it wouldn't be a problem. I used one of the NL-4's for a week and didn't destroy it flattening India's and Crystolon's. Wasn't heavy dishing... but it worked..


This is the first argument that could convince me of a Nanohone flattening plate....


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## SilverSwarfer (Feb 24, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I wrote Nanohone customer service regarding the NL-4 and Crystolon/India stones. They said it wouldn't be a problem. I used one of the NL-4's for a week and didn't destroy it flattening India's and Crystolon's. Wasn't heavy dishing... but it worked..


I am happy to know it was asked and answered specifically!

Somehow I find myself underwhelmed by my NL-4. I have been using it responsibly (no major dished-stone repairs, no extremely scary abrasives // only familiar Synths 220-4k) since mid-late 2019. I acknowledge that it has served well for a long time; but I was expecting more duration of performance for price. I believe the abrasive has rounded/detached to some extent and the bulk of work is being done by the "arrow-rake" design itself. I really do like the design: the edges of the "arrows" and the space between makes for some formidable scraping. 

I have been threatening to start using it with SiC, though I haven't started yet I can't see much downside given the drop in performance I'm experiencing. Curious whether any other NL-4 users have similar thoughts. Especially whether anyone has worn one out yet - how much of the service life was satisfying.


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## spaceconvoy (Feb 24, 2022)

Any idea how easily scratches from a medium India could be removed by the GS500?

Would be nice to finally be rid of sandpaper, just because of how messy it is to use, which makes me hesitate to use it. Thinking about buying two medium Indias so I can use the front and back sides to flatten them with the three four stone method. It would be extra nice if I could jump to the GS500 and not need to modify the rest of my stone progression.


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## M1k3 (Feb 24, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> This is the first argument that could convince me of a Nanohone flattening plate....



It's a nice flattening plate. Not sure of longevity, I only had it for a week.



SilverSwarfer said:


> I am happy to know it was asked and answered specifically!
> 
> Somehow I find myself underwhelmed by my NL-4. I have been using it responsibly (no major dished-stone repairs, no extremely scary abrasives // only familiar Synths 220-4k) since mid-late 2019. I acknowledge that it has served well for a long time; but I was expecting more duration of performance for price. I believe the abrasive has rounded/detached to some extent and the bulk of work is being done by the "arrow-rake" design itself. I really do like the design: the edges of the "arrows" and the space between makes for some formidable scraping.
> 
> I have been threatening to start using it with SiC, though I haven't started yet I can't see much downside given the drop in performance I'm experiencing. Curious whether any other NL-4 users have similar thoughts. Especially whether anyone has worn one out yet - how much of the service life was satisfying.



And this is what I was afraid of. Whether it was worth the price or just keep buying Atoma's...


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## M1k3 (Feb 24, 2022)

spaceconvoy said:


> Any idea how easily scratches from a medium India could be removed by the GS500?
> 
> Would be nice to finally be rid of sandpaper, just because of how messy it is to use, which makes me hesitate to use it. Thinking about buying two medium Indias so I can use the front and back sides to flatten them with the three four stone method. It would be extra nice if I could jump to the GS500 and not need to modify the rest of my stone progression.


Not sure about polishing, but sharpening no issue.


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## spaceconvoy (Feb 24, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Not sure about polishing, but sharpening no issue.



On paper it would seem like a reasonable jump: medium India is ~55μm if you believe that Wicked Edge chart, and GS500 is 29.4μm if you believe Shapton's excessively precise labeling.



cotedupy said:


> It's just that the stone basically isn't friable in any way at all - it doesn't really have a binder as such. So the finish / scratch pattern it leaves is quite different to Japanese waterstones.



Not sure what this means exactly, so I'm wondering if maybe the jump doesn't quite work in practice.


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## kayman67 (Feb 24, 2022)

I'm gonna go against the general appraisal and say it is, except it's not. Anymore. 
I had and still have many or these. Old, new, different countries, all same concept. Some absolute fantastic stones for edges, others not so much. I also had these with all sorts of natural combos. They are unfortunately rare. 
Having a wider and wider range of knives to deal with, these got less and less useful. Just doesn't make sense to put in the extra work, amongst other things. Might be cheap, makes little difference if you pay otherwise. Anyway, I guess price was never the issue as some variations aren't exactly that cheap, tbh. 
I know that diamonds and cbn were/are expensive. Mostly anyway, as some are affordable, all things considered. I also know that they aren't just force driven, making them a bit problematic. There were other shortcomings, too, but most are a thing of the past. The main concern right now is actually this entire Russian situation, rather than the price/performance. Because this is a Venev 400 finish. While not perfect, very easy to follow with anything. This is done after Venev 200 and was merely an exercise for something else. Sure, it's like 5 times more expensive. There's that. Plus the lack of real alternatives. The speed and the quality of the finish are something the greatest stone can't touch in another hundred years. I'm very familiar with all. And this is just one example.


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## BoSharpens (Feb 24, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Haha! How long is a piece of string? I'll try to describe it though...
> 
> You cannot flatten one, even a tiny amount, on a belt grinder or sic powder, and it'll kill an Atoma plate in 60 seconds.



I've used 2 sided Norton hand stones in a machine shop environment for decades and likewise at home for quick kitchen 'touch-up.' The kitchen stone has 4+ decades of work on it and I knew it was slightly dished so I wanted to flatten it. I still use an Arkansas/Washita for putting the fine edge on after the Norton India.

For flattening in my machine shop, I bought a steel surface plate with a checker board of 2mm grooves on it. Then I bought a bag of aluminum oxide grit.

I put a light layer, approx. 1 grain deep on the steel plate and rubbed the Norton India side stone on it for probably 10-15 minutes. That put the India side back to essentially new flat shape. The now finer Al2O3 grit was saved as it is now finer and usable for other lapping.

I have absolutely nothing against natural stones for my final polish and finest edges, but I'll be danged if I am going to spend high dollars to get something that isn't nearly as good as my Norton for roughing work. 

Gesswein also sells small & shaped artificial toolmakers stones. Abrasives , Compounds, Tools and Supplies for Jewelry Polishing | Gesswein

I've forgotten the name of other toolmaker's stone suppliers, since I sold the tool shop.


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## ModRQC (Feb 24, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> I also know that they aren't just force driven, making them a bit problematic.



Trying to get my head around what you mean, and I can't seem to... Can you or anyone explain that?


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Feb 24, 2022)

spaceconvoy said:


> Thinking about buying two medium Indias so I can use the front and back sides to flatten them with the three four stone method.


You need three separate pieces to do a 'three stone method'. Not to say that you can't keep two surfaces reasonably flat using them against each other with a separate reference.


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## spaceconvoy (Feb 24, 2022)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> You need three separate pieces to do a 'three stone method'. Not to say that you can't keep two surfaces reasonably flat using them against each other with a separate reference.


But two stones have four surfaces. Of course each surface can only be used against two others (which can't be used against each other). But I don't see how it wouldn't work if you just rotate through the four possible combinations, since every surface will be referenced against two others.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Feb 24, 2022)

spaceconvoy said:


> But two stones have four surfaces. Of course each surface can only be used against two others (which can't be used against each other). But I don't see how it wouldn't work if you just rotate through the four possible combinations, since every surface will be referenced against two others.


You need to be able to go A to B, B to C, C to A. The point is that any pair that mates in all orientations does so as a spherical interface with flat being a spherical interface of infinite radius.

1.So if A mates to B , but A is concave and B is convex

2. A mates to C, but A is still concave.

3. You need to have a way to put B against C to see that the two convex surfaces don't mate.

As I said, you can get two stones mating and then verify that the radius of the interface is large enough to be reasonably flat with a straight edge or other reference, but this is different than the 'three stone' method.


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## M1k3 (Feb 24, 2022)

You can do 4 stones. Or 5. Or however many as long as it's at least 3. Gets more confusing with more stones though.


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## kayman67 (Feb 24, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Trying to get my head around what you mean, and I can't seem to... Can you or anyone explain that?



In my experience, a vast majority of users go for maximum force applied, while diamonds don't react to this very well in general, plates in particular (and these are the most common ones).


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## ModRQC (Feb 24, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> In my experience, a vast majority of users go for maximum force applied, while diamonds don't react to this very well in general, plates in particular (and these are the most common ones).



Ok so the common sense applied but I wasn’t all that sure and still appreciate the extra details. Thanks!


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## spaceconvoy (Feb 24, 2022)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> You need to be able to go A to B, B to C, C to A. The point is that any pair that mates in all orientations does so as a spherical interface with flat being a spherical interface of infinite radius.
> 
> 1.So if A mates to B , but A is concave and B is convex
> 
> ...


This doesn't make any sense to me, since it doesn't account for D, and the fact that A and B (or C and D) can't interface with each other... I would never figure out the three shells 

But I understand it after drawing out the different permutations. Maybe I have a mild learning disability, but this makes a lot more sense to me than your written argument:


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## ModRQC (Feb 24, 2022)

Different parts of the brain involved. No disability there but rather natural strenghts. Written explanation clear to me, drawing forces me into making connections I’m none too sure about as to the whole operation.


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## spaceconvoy (Feb 24, 2022)

Here's my thinking: if you sharpen on only one side of one stone then try to flatten with the other untouched sides (first line, pink progression) you end up with one stone convex on both sides and one concave.

_But_, if you interface them following the progression on the second line, then sharpen on the most convex side of the second stone, you can flatten them back to zero (third line).

This is all theoretical of course. I'm assigning the amount of sharpening wear an abstract value of "1", assuming both stones are equally hard, and interfacing any two sides will result in a perfectly symmetrical addition/subtraction.

I understand this two stone/four face method wouldn't work with two different stones, but it might be good enough for two identical stones. Especially coarse stones where absolute flatness isn't so important.


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## ModRQC (Feb 24, 2022)

But much more careful use of the coarse stones do, which just as much as keeping them so flat is not important, is usually why we won’t bother to much. But you would have to. 

I think @M1k3 idea of introducing a crystolon into the mix might be time/worry saving so worth it’s dime.


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## M1k3 (Feb 24, 2022)

With India and Crystolon's and worrying about how you're going to flatten them.... don't. Unless you're sharpening professionally. Or obsessively. Or allowing every line cook who kinda sorta knows how to sharpen to rub their knife across the stone, it's going to dish obscenely slow..


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## ModRQC (Feb 24, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Nanohone NL-4 is up to the task of flattening India's and Crystolon's. But seems a bit overkill for a $20 stone.
> 
> There's always the 3 stone method though. Which would be a good reason to get a Crystolon to go with an India.



Still… I think such an idea is worthwhile.


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## cotedupy (Feb 25, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I wrote Nanohone customer service regarding the NL-4 and Crystolon/India stones. They said it wouldn't be a problem. I used one of the NL-4's for a week and didn't destroy it flattening India's and Crystolon's. Wasn't heavy dishing... but it worked..



I can imagine this. Diamond is the only thing that really makes a dent on them, it's just not worth trying to do it on atomas to dished stones. I haven't found Crystolon to be much use in trying to flatten ones that do need it. They kinda just bounce off each other, and polish the other stone without abrading it, and belts obviously do the same. Lots of pressure on paving slabs can work.

Interesting also to note - Crystolon stones are softer than Indias in terms of their structure, and will dish a little if used in exactly the same way. Also Coarse Crysolon/India are softer than the Fine versions. I assume this is something to do with not wanting the stone to completely burnish if using with heavy pressure.

Really though, as you say, worrying about flattening India stones is not anything that should occupy one's time unduly. They basically just don't dish with normal knife use.

---



spaceconvoy said:


> Any idea how easily scratches from a medium India could be removed by the GS500?



I can check for you - I have both. Would you like me to use oil or water with the Med India?

While I'm playing my silly game of 'Greatest Synth Ever'... SG500 would probably actually come in at No.2 - every time I use it I'm baffled by how they've made it so good. With the Ouka taking the final spot on the podium.


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## KingShapton (Feb 25, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> It's a nice flattening plate. Not sure of longevity, I only had it for a week.


That's what's holding me back from buying it...the longevity issue. There's no question that Nanohone's flattening plates are good, but it's a lot of money compared to the price of an Atoma replacement plate.

Or to put it another way, for the price of a Nanohone flattening plate I get a lot of Atoma replacement sheets.


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## sansho (Feb 25, 2022)

dumb question, but this is the one you're talking about, right?






just asking because the colors don't seem quite like yours (yellow and orange-brown vs brown and dark-something), and i'm not familiar with norton's lineup at all.

and again, it works well as a water stone after initial degreasing? i don't want to use oil. i sharpen in the sink with water.

do you have to soak it much?

thanks!


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## cotedupy (Feb 25, 2022)

sansho said:


> dumb question, but this is the one you're talking about, right?
> 
> View attachment 167350
> 
> ...



That’s it indeed - the IB8.

They changed the various colours of coarse/med/fine from time to time, and I think also in different markets. But yeah - those are the current colours.

If it’s oil filled - you’ll want a day or two soaking in degreaser, might need to change it. But after that it’s a splash and go to use with water or oil.


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## sansho (Feb 25, 2022)

thanks, just ordered one.









India Oil Stones - Combo Bench Sharpening Stone - Coarse/Fine - India alundum | eBay


The long lasting India alundum formulation cuts a little slower than it's Crystolon counterpart but generates the finest razor sharp edge.



www.ebay.com





that's the cheapest one i found in case anyone else is looking. $28. can it really be found for $20 or less rn?


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## Delat (Feb 25, 2022)

sansho said:


> thanks, just ordered one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like this guy on amazon for $22. Just threw it in my cart - I need to sharpen up a ridiculously dull hatchet tool thing I use in the yard. After I'm done hacking at it with a file I think this stone will add the finishing touch.
https://www.amazon.com/Norton-61463...n+india+stone+61463685565,aps,247&sr=8-1&th=1


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## ian (Feb 25, 2022)

@spaceconvoy Here's another way to think about it. When you rub two stones together in a random way, the stones will tend toward an equilibrium state where the convexity of one (if present) matches the concavity of the other. (They might also just be flat, but they might not.)

If you have two double sided stones, it could be that one stone is convex on both sides, and the other stone is concave on both sides. Then if you rub one stone against the other, you'll stay in that equilibrium, no matter which sides you're rubbing together.


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## spaceconvoy (Feb 25, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Would you like me to use oil or water with the Med India?


I'd love to know how it works with water, thanks! Are you expecting there's a noticeable difference? Maybe something to do with the amount of swarf suspended in oil vs water.



ian said:


> If you have two double sided stones, it could be that one stone is convex on both sides, and the other stone is concave on both sides. Then if you rub one stone against the other, you'll stay in that equilibrium, no matter which sides you're rubbing together.


Yes, that's true in the absence of any further dishing (as illustrated on the first line in pink). But we can take advantage of the fact that dishing is a continuous process and keep alternating between stones, sharpening on the convex one until it's concave, then interfacing them to make the other stone convex, back and forth until they're completely worn down.

The disadvantage is you'll always start sharpening on a convex surface, but that doesn't seem like a big deal to me since I don't care about precisely flat bevels or polishing. I just want to know that a few years down the line I'm not left with something unusable that's become very difficult to fix.


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## ian (Feb 25, 2022)

spaceconvoy said:


> I'd love to know how it works with water, thanks! Are you expecting there's a noticeable difference? Maybe something to do with the amount of swarf suspended in oil vs water.
> 
> 
> Yes, that's true in the absence of any further dishing (as illustrated on the first line in pink). But we can take advantage of the fact that dishing is a continuous process and keep alternating between stones, sharpening on the convex one until it's concave, then interfacing them to make the other stone convex, back and forth until they're completely worn down.
> ...



I think relying on dishing from sharpening to correct things is kinda iffy. The point of the 3 stone method is that you KNOW you're getting a flat surface. But if you don't care about a bit of convexity/concavity, then sure, do it like that. If it starts getting out of hand, hit them with sandpaper on a flat surface, or bring another stone into the rotation. It's not like they'll suddenly become unfixably convex/concave all at once.


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## Desert Rat (Feb 25, 2022)

I have had some success flattening using a diamond plate, one I don't care about.

This stone here on the left had been freshly lapped because it had started to get low in the center. Kind of selective material removable from the surface of the stone. I don't need them to be perfectly flat.
I flip the stones when they get to much dish to deal with and when both sides are dished it's time for new stones.


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## cotedupy (Feb 25, 2022)

spaceconvoy said:


> I'd love to know how it works with water, thanks! Are you expecting there's a noticeable difference? Maybe something to do with the amount of swarf suspended in oil vs water.



Will report back!

I'm still to get my head around the physics of why oil is better for sharpening. It has improved every single stone I've tried it on (including jnats) in terms of cutting speed and performance, but doesn't really polish very well I've found. Will give both a go and report back with some pics.

FWIW - if an India stone isn't 'pre-filled' with oil, then you can chop and change between oil and water quite happily. You can do that on most stones actually.


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## Aidan (Feb 26, 2022)

do you recognise these stones ? Any thoughts about them?





Tools - Sharpening - Natural Rozsutec Whetstones - Workshop Heaven







www.workshopheaven.com


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## KingShapton (Feb 26, 2022)

Aidan said:


> do you recognise these stones ? Any thoughts about them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like the rozsutek stones a lot!
Great stone and also great as a kind of base for different naguras. 

But this stone has a kind of "learning curve", at least that's how it was for me, it took me a while to appreciate it.

The stone is definitely on the hard side, no Slurry.


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## kayman67 (Feb 26, 2022)

Very good stone, hard, has the ability to polish well, but only small bevels.


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## KingShapton (Feb 26, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> Very good stone, hard, has the ability to polish well, but only small bevels.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Feb 26, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I'm still to get my head around the physics of why oil is better for sharpening.


I've had this same question.

Somewhat related. I used to use W/D paper dry on steel. I was asked why I didn't use water with it.
I had tried it with water and also with my oil stone 'go to' propylene glycol, neither of which seemed to improve things at all over dry. I was certainly willing to try other lubes and WD40 was recommended. This made a huge difference for me.


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## OldSaw (Feb 26, 2022)

I just ordered one. I will most likely use it with oil so I can have multiple options in sharpening equipment.


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## SirCutAlot (Feb 26, 2022)

Whooo  I don`t like Roszutec at all, but maybe the 5 i checked are bad. Anyone tryed a frankonian hone ? My sharpening teacher talked me into one (if i ever find one  ) 

SirCutALot


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## kayman67 (Feb 26, 2022)

For lower grits, oil with maybe some thiner, is recommended as best practice. 
For finer stones, something like WD40 is considered to be better for performance. There were some very fine India stones available at times, but they aren't easy to find. So this would be more for fine naturals. 
And indeed WD40 works very well for sandpaper.


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## KingShapton (Feb 26, 2022)

SirCutAlot said:


> Whooo  I don`t like Roszutec at all, but maybe the 5 i checked are bad. Anyone tryed a frankonian hone ? My sharpening teacher talked me into one (if i ever find one  )
> 
> SirCutALot


Funny I know 5 Rozsutec and all are good. Maybe it's just a question of sharpening technique or sharpening philosophy? That the technique or philosophy sometimes doesn't fit the stone...

Hardly anyone here will know the Franconian hone... it's more well-known in a certain German forum. There is also someone who prefers a cheap deba for tasks like deboning poultry - I assume you know him?!


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## Delat (Feb 26, 2022)

My stone arrived today - good thing they’re indestructible since Amazon just threw it in an unpadded plastic envelope.

I have a yard tool that had never been sharpened with an edge that looked like this (this is a different hatchet but equally dull). Literally a 4mm flat “edge”.





20 minutes with a mill file - and omg mill files are freaking awesome - and 15 mins with the coarse side of the india stone, and I have an edge that can actually slice paper! All ready to tackle some intrusive tree roots tomorrow. 

This is an extreme example but I can see where the love comes from for this stone on super dull knives. You can see leftover sharpie marks on the bottom of the edge - the stone did a great job of chewing through the high spots from the file work and giving me an actual edge.


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## demirtasem (Feb 28, 2022)

Delat said:


> My stone arrived today - good thing they’re indestructible since Amazon just threw it in an unpadded plastic envelope.
> 
> I have a yard tool that had never been sharpened with an edge that looked like this (this is a different hatchet but equally dull). Literally a 4mm flat “edge”.
> 
> ...



Looks really good. Did you use water on the stone?


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## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

@cotedupy I wouldn't believe they were good if I didnt have one myself. 

I bought one maybe a year ago. Just because it was cheap, and I was curious. It totally surprised me. The speed is quite fast, it's quite hard. 

I liked it so much I upgraded to the larger size. I just wish I could get one that is a little wider. I eventually found that I like to use wd40 or oils with a similar viscosity. They tend to work best in my experience, but ymmv.


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## KingShapton (Feb 28, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> I liked it so much I upgraded to the larger size. I just wish I could get one that is a little wider.


You mean a wider Norton stone?!

Then have a look at sharpeningsupplies, there you will find Norton crystolon and india also in wide.

Norton


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## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> You mean a wider Norton stone?!
> 
> Then have a look at sharpeningsupplies, there you will find Norton crystolon and india also in wide.
> 
> Norton


Thanks! That's exactly what I meant. I had no idea they sold those.


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## kayman67 (Feb 28, 2022)

You should be able to find all of them in 8x3 (I had them myself) and some also in 12x3 (or something close anyway, I can't remember the exact measurements, I still have some put away as they hardly got any usage at some point, being actually too big to move around with).


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## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> You should be able to find all of them in 8x3 (I had them myself) and some also in 12x3 (or something close anyway, I can't remember the exact measurements, I still have some put away as they hardly got any usage at some point, being actually too big to move around with).


Wow lol 12x3 is giant!


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## sansho (Feb 28, 2022)

Norton Combination India Stone


The Norton Combination India stone is an Oil Stone made with aluminum oxide abrasive. These two-sided stones feature a Coarse India side for establishing an edge and a Fine India side for refining the edge.



www.sharpeningsupplies.com





the one we've been talking about:

8" x 2" x 1" Stone: Norton Item No. *IB8*, Norton Part No. 61463685565
it seems there is also a bigger one, but there's less selection on ebay:

11-1/2" x 2-1/2" x 1" Stone: Norton Item No. *IM2*, Norton Part No. 61463685851
another interesting tidbit:

"The Coarse India is 150 grit and the Fine India is 400 grit. Please see our *Norton Grit Chart* for more information."


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## cotedupy (Feb 28, 2022)

sansho said:


> another interesting tidbit:
> 
> "The Coarse India is 150 grit and the Fine India is 400 grit. Please see our *Norton Grit Chart* for more information."



This is probably quite close In my experience. Though ANSI / CAMI / JIS conversions are quite tricky in terms of edge finish, particularly when you start throwing hard, vitrified oilstones into the mix. A Norton Fine India can finish a fair bit higher than that depending on how you use.


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## kayman67 (Feb 28, 2022)

Yes, indeed they are quite a


jwthaparc said:


> Wow lol 12x3 is giant!



Seems like they are a bit "smaller"


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## sansho (Feb 28, 2022)

got mine. spent a few extra dollars and sprung for a 1998 NOS one because made in USA. why not.

it was $33 all in.


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## sansho (Feb 28, 2022)

how can i tell if this thing's oil soaked? it doesn't _feel_ oily. is it super obvious?


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## spaceconvoy (Feb 28, 2022)

sansho said:


> how can i tell if this thing's oil soaked? it doesn't _feel_ oily. is it super obvious?


I'm just guessing but I'd try wrapping it in a paper towel first to see if there's spotting, then soak it in water and look for any sheen just to be sure.


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## cotedupy (Feb 28, 2022)

sansho said:


> how can i tell if this thing's oil soaked? it doesn't _feel_ oily. is it super obvious?



I was actually about to comment on this... I was going to say to that it didn't look like it was oil-filled. But then I've noticed on the side of your box it does say 'pre-oiled'. India stones don't seem to be as greasy and oozy as oil-filled Crystolons, but I'd probably recommend try to get some of it out at least. If you don't have degreaser to hand then soaking for a while in very hot water + dishwashing detergent will help, might need to do it a few times though. 

Even if you are planning to use with oil - I personally prefer to get the oil out anyway, as filled stones can have a slightly weird, slick feedback. If I'm using a coarse stone I like to be able to feel that it's doing its job!


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## cotedupy (Feb 28, 2022)

I must also say that I didn't anticipate the enthusiasm, and willingness to try new things, when I posted this thread. 

And congratulations to those that have gone and bought one. Though they might be a bit different to what people are used to, I'm fairly confident that people will like. When you use them it's quite apparent how good they are at what they're intended for .


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## M1k3 (Feb 28, 2022)

sansho said:


> how can i tell if this thing's oil soaked? it doesn't _feel_ oily. is it super obvious?


Boil it. Might have a wax or petroleum jelly filling


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## jwthaparc (Feb 28, 2022)

I never noticed any wierd effects from it being oil soaked. Like I said I tend to use oil (wd 40) on mine. ,before that I used mineral oil, and before that i used windex. All good options. I tried with water, and I wasn't crazy about it. 

I would rather use water than oil every time, but in the case of the India stone, oils just work so well. That and the hard ark I have.


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## cotedupy (Feb 28, 2022)

spaceconvoy said:


> On paper it would seem like a reasonable jump: medium India is ~55μm if you believe that Wicked Edge chart, and GS500 is 29.4μm if you believe Shapton's excessively precise labeling.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what this means exactly, so I'm wondering if maybe the jump doesn't quite work in practice.



[Just remembered about this... sorry for the delay!]

So this is the first time I've really looked at scratch patterns from the Norton Medium. I only spent about a min on each side, but did it with reasonable pressure to mimic the material removal from thinning, which I assume was probably why you asked... (?)

Here are my stones, Norton Medium India and SG500. And for anybody who's interested below is the stamp that the older Indias had, it's a Tiger's head in a circle.












This is the finish with water. Don't ask me why these stones do this, but it's going pretty mirror like, with the scratch pattern over the top:







And here's oil on the other side - not so mirrored. This is a pretty fast stone whatever way you spin it, but it's even quicker with oil:







Now I knew the Norton Medium was able to put a pretty decent working edge on a knife in no time at all, but I hadn't expected the jump to the SG500 to work that well - I thought the scratches from the Norton to be a little too deep to work out easily. But actually the SG500 has done quite well here; this is the side of the blade I used water on the India for, and tried to use the SG at a different angle so you could see what was happening. And doesn't look to have many of those long acute angle scratches from the India left. Maybe it's just covered them up very well, but even looking in person quite closely I can't see them.






---

While I had the Medium out I took the opportunity to sharpen with it as well. This is a factory setting (i.e. blunt and needing an edge sharpened onto it) Tosa blade, and took about 3 mins. It's actually rather a good kitchen knife edge, it certainly finishes finer than it's usually grit rated at.

(Both knives are soft steel clad Aogami 2.)






Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## captaincaed (Feb 28, 2022)

sansho said:


> View attachment 167858
> 
> 
> got mine. spent a few extra dollars and sprung for a 1998 NOS one because made in USA. why not.
> ...


Aw yeah! I've got one of these too. Great worker.


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## Delat (Feb 28, 2022)

demirtasem said:


> Looks really good. Did you use water on the stone?



Yup, I didn’t bother trying to degrease it. Just squirted some water and got to work. The water just sat on the surface at first but the sharpening seemed to open it up and the water started soaking in more.

It was really nice to not have to worry about either wearing out an expensive stone or dishing an expensive stone. Definitely something mentally freeing about using a $20 stone


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## cotedupy (Feb 28, 2022)

Delat said:


> Yup, I didn’t bother trying to degrease it. Just squirted some water and got to work. The water just sat on the surface at first but the sharpening seemed to open it up and the water started soaking in more.
> 
> It was really nice to not have to worry about either wearing out an expensive stone or dishing an expensive stone. Definitely something mentally freeing about using a $20 stone



From the look of some of these stones, and people's descriptions I think perhaps newer ones might be pre-loaded differently, or with different stuff. Good to know that they don't really need degreasing to use with water.


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## cotedupy (Feb 28, 2022)

Here's an interesting little one (for @stringer @KingShapton and the handheld fans) that I'd slightly forgotten I had...

It's an India Coarse and Fine coming it at about 150 x 40mm. I assume these stones were probably sold too, but I believe they were also used by Norton as little corporate gift things, as well as product samples for retailers. Conveniently stamped rather than inked, so you'd never forget who'd given it you:


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## Delat (Mar 1, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> From the look of some of these stones, and people's descriptions I think perhaps newer ones might be pre-loaded differently, or with different stuff. Good to know that they don't really need degreasing to use with water.



There might be oil inside, but I rubbed the surface with my fingers and they came away clean (and the stone felt dry) so I just shrugged and threw water on it.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 1, 2022)

@cotedupy man. You have some cool old norton stones. I especially liked that medium with the tiger stamp.


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## cotedupy (Mar 1, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> @cotedupy man. You have some cool old norton stones. I especially liked that medium with the tiger stamp.



Ah cheers! I just found a better picture of another stamped one I have, which is a Fine (with a Washita underneath before I made it into a combi).






Looking at it again - it's the same Tiger head logo as on @sansho 's 175 anniversary edition above. With the text reading: 'India Oilstones Sharp and Quick'... well quite.

---

Good to hear you're a fan too! And I'd be with you - I do prefer them with oil.


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## Desert Rat (Mar 1, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I must also say that I didn't anticipate the enthusiasm, and willingness to try new things, when I posted this thread.
> 
> And congratulations to those that have gone and bought one. Though they might be a bit different to what people are used to, I'm fairly confident that people will like. When you use them it's quite apparent how good they are at what they're intended for .


It's fascinating. Whats old will be new again.


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## Desert Rat (Mar 1, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> You mean a wider Norton stone?!
> 
> Then have a look at sharpeningsupplies, there you will find Norton crystolon and india also in wide.
> 
> Norton


They have oversized stone holders that will fit them too.


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## BoSharpens (Mar 1, 2022)

SharpeningSupplies.com

Good quick service.
Just to be clear.


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## branwell (Mar 2, 2022)

Couldn't let you all have all the fun with the Nortons. Got a course India.

Just got it so comments not based on much.

Likes.
No slurry in normal use so no haze above the contact line.
Faster in bevel setting than the 220 stones I have.
Feels better than you would think for a course stone. Does not feel like any water stones I have.
Hard.
Biggest like. The edge is very crispy for a stone in the low 100 grit range.

Dislikes.
Skaty on hard carbon ( 65+ rockwell )
Oil.

For me the whole oil thing doesn't work. Luckily the stone seems to work with water. That said I have no idea if this will cause it to glaze or dull early.

For conditioning I tried a 140 diamond plate. As some have said, its too smooth and slows the stone way down. I also needed to set the bevels on some new knives fresh out of the forge and the high rockwell steel ( 65 ) at 90 degrees did crack the abrasives making the stone fast again. Maybe that's another way of dealing with it rather than loose sic.


Thanks guys for inspiring me to try this stone.


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## KingShapton (Mar 2, 2022)

branwell said:


> Couldn't let you all have all the fun with the Nortons. Got a course India.
> 
> Just got it so comments not based on much.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you like the stone!

For steels 65+ might the Norton Crystolon coarse be an idea? Similar price range, hard-bound SiC, also works with water instead of oil, that might be a solution for you?! The Crystolon dishes slightly faster than the Norton India, but still slow compared to Wasserstein...

With both stones (India and Crystolon) the surface has to be reconditioned sooner or later, maybe you can then put loose sic powder between the two stones and rub them against each other?! Only for conditioning the surface, not for flattening. See the discussion on flattening with the "3 stone method".


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## M1k3 (Mar 2, 2022)

branwell said:


> Couldn't let you all have all the fun with the Nortons. Got a course India.
> 
> Just got it so comments not based on much.
> 
> ...


For your use, I'd suggest a Crystolon.


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## pentryumf (Mar 2, 2022)

branwell said:


> Couldn't let you all have all the fun with the Nortons. Got a course India.
> 
> Just got it so comments not based on much.
> 
> ...





branwell said:


> For me the whole oil thing doesn't work.


I would like to suggest glycerin instead of oil. @Skylar303 posted,’I use water soluble glycerin/water mix when using stones that say to use oil, since I've moved away from 'oilstones'.

I originally avoided oil, tried laxative mineral oil, ‘ho hum’, then tried a light glycerin and must say, much nicer feedback and stone became more alive. Used on a slate and surg ark. Nice cleanup too.


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## bsfsu (Mar 2, 2022)

I've been cleaning up a recent find.









I'm gonna have a play with some steel on it today.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Mar 2, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> With both stones (India and Crystolon) the surface has to be reconditioned sooner or later, maybe you can then put loose sic powder between the two stones and rub them against each other?! Only for conditioning the surface, not for flattening. See the discussion on flattening with the "3 stone method".


I have done this with coarse and medium Crystolons when thinning. It worked well.

I had a coarse/fine combo Crystolon and purchased the medium specifically to have a second Crystolon to use as a rub stone with and without SiC powder. The medium is a nice stone too. I don't have much use for the fine side of the combo and would not replace that one.


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## Mr.Wizard (Mar 2, 2022)

@spaceconvoy @VICTOR J CREAZZI

An additional requirement of the three plate method is that you need to turn the surfaces 90° as one of the steps. This works with square plates but not well with standard oblong sharpening stones.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Mar 2, 2022)

In my description I mentioned 'mating in all orientations'.


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## cotedupy (Mar 2, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> For your use, I'd suggest a Crystolon.



Do you find Crystolons dish a little more than Indias? IME their composition is just a little bit softer (though still very hard obviously).


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## cotedupy (Mar 2, 2022)

branwell said:


> Couldn't let you all have all the fun with the Nortons. Got a course India.
> 
> Just got it so comments not based on much.
> 
> ...



I'm going to chalk this up as a win... finally you have begun to understand the _true power of the Dark Side! _

(Sorry - I've been watching too much Star Wars lately.)

On a more serious note, obviously all of these stones - Indias and Crystolons - can be used with either water or oil. And I find the difference in effect between the two is barely noticeable on the coarse stones. In fact I often use water on the coarse ones, on fines and Mediums I tend to prefer oil. But really it's just personal preference. I don't think a coarse India will glaze or clog any faster if you're using with water - work away.

Glad you like! Though it doesn't surprise me; they're such good stonesat what they're for, that I think anybody would be able to recognise that, and particularly someone who makes knives professionally, and does a lot of sharpening.


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## M1k3 (Mar 2, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Do you find Crystolons dish a little more than Indias? IME their composition is just a little bit softer (though still very hard obviously).


Yes. Especially the coarse one. I believe it's because the SiC is easier to fracture than the AlOx. My old restaurant had one of those tri-stone deals, very old. 1930-early 1950's? Wasn't a Norton branded one. The coarse and medium Crystolon's needing replacing, severely dished and too thin. The fine India was nearly flat.


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## cotedupy (Mar 2, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Yes. Especially the coarse one. I believe it's because the SiC is easier to fracture than the AlOx. My old restaurant had one of those tri-stone deals, very old. 1930-early 1950's? Wasn't a Norton branded one. The coarse and medium Crystolon's needing replacing, severely dished and too thin. The fine India was nearly flat.



Ah yeah - that chimes with my impressions then. I have a Norton Coarse and Fine Crystolon combi and after heavy use for a couple of years I've managed to dish it a bit in a way I don't think I ever could with an India.

Fine Indias in particular are extraordinarily hard, and not just because people use them with lighter pressure. I found this out to my cost when I tried to take two inches off one and shape it to make a combi with a washita - that was an insane undertaking. Though once I'd started I had to see it through!


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## M1k3 (Mar 2, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Ah yeah - that chimes with my impressions then. I have a Norton Coarse and Fine Crystolon combi and after heavy use for a couple of years I've managed to dish it a bit in a way I don't think I ever could with an India.
> 
> Fine Indias in particular are extraordinarily hard, and not just because people use them with lighter pressure. I found this out to my cost when I tried to take two inches off one and shape it to make a combi with a washita - that was an insane undertaking. Though once I'd started I had to see it through!


Diamond tip tile cutter. Got it.


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## Luftmensch (Mar 3, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Diamond tip tile cutter. Got it.



Definitely angle grinder territory.




cotedupy said:


> Do you find Crystolons dish a little more than Indias?



I've only tried Crystolon... recently! I was surprised at how "quickly" the coarse side dished. In an absolute sense it dished slowly. But I had high (unrealistic) expectations for it being dish resistant. I didnt expect to see evidence of dishing early on... but it was there. The way swarf stained a dry stone. No doubt... fractions of a millimetre... and nothing that would concern me at all! But dishing nonetheless!


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## KingShapton (Mar 3, 2022)

Obviously, the Norton India were widespread in many forms, also in Germany.

Here is a photo of a Norton India scythe whetstone, some of which are offered for sale by a private seller in Germany.


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## Desert Rat (Mar 3, 2022)

I can make my big Crystolon stones in my Norton tri hones self slurry like crazy. They are all old stones so Nortons. I wonder if they break down over time or if it isn't just the larger stones having more surface area? The tendency to use more pressure on the larger stones might play a role also.
The India's don't self slurry like that.


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## M1k3 (Mar 3, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> I can make my big Crystolon stones in my Norton tri hones self slurry like crazy. They are all old stones so Nortons. I wonder if they break down over time or if it isn't just the larger stones having more surface area? The tendency to use more pressure on the larger stones might play a role also.
> The India's don't self slurry like that.


Silicon Carbide (Crystolon's) fracture easier than Aluminum Oxide (India's).


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## gordyt (Mar 3, 2022)

branwell said:


> For me the whole oil thing doesn't work. Luckily the stone seems to work with water. That said I have no idea if this will cause it to glaze or dull early.



For all of my "oil" stones I use this:

- 1 part pharmaceutical-grade mineral oil
- 4 parts water
- about 1/2 part (or less) Dawn dish soap -- just enough to keep things mixed

Works great. Very clean.


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## OldSaw (Mar 3, 2022)

Just got mine. Did a quick tune up on my EDC knife with mineral oil. I’ve been pretty rough on this knife lately, using it for all kinds of non-knife things. It put a workable edge on it in short order, but I think it might be a little too coarse for my kitchen knives.


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## Williamchan87 (Mar 4, 2022)

I'm quite sad that they are substantially more expensive up north in Canada


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## jwthaparc (Mar 4, 2022)

I have one of the ace hardware brand silicon carbide, crystolon knock offs. I bought it after I got my india, because i was so happy with it. I figure i should give one of the SiC stones a try. I was very disappointed with it. It hardly releases new abrasive at all. Glazes very quickly. 

I've been wanting to give one of the actual crystolons a try, but have put off buying one for a while. Maybe I'll go do that now.


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## esoo (Mar 4, 2022)

Williamchan87 said:


> I'm quite sad that they are substantially more expensive up north in Canada



According to the pic, this is the same Norton stone (IB8)


https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/sharpening/stones/33018-aluminum-oxide-oil-stones


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## branwell (Mar 4, 2022)

I hate to be that guy but..... New out of the box the Norton India used with water is noticeably faster than a Shapton Kuromaku 220. After setting bevels on 10 knives ( mixed trash steel, AEBL and 52100 ), its about 4 times slower. Seems the stone is hard enough that it doesn't release enough fresh abrasive to stay at max performance. It might be this slowing tendency would be less pronounced with oil but when I tried it with oil, because I am using waterstones after, the time it takes to clean the oil off the blade is not worth it.

I tried refreshing the surface with a 140 diamond plate. As several have said, this makes it worse. My understanding is it takes some very low loose grit on glass to refresh the surface. Will try this but for me, the self refreshing aspect of a stone is pretty clutch. I mean I'll barely use soakers because of the extra effort.

I'm glad I tried it. Its an interesting stone that leaves an amazing edge for its grit, just not sure its for me.


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## kayman67 (Mar 4, 2022)

Keep in mind that most diamonds on these stones would glaze them eventually, making the surface glass like.


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## M1k3 (Mar 4, 2022)

branwell said:


> I hate to be that guy but..... New out of the box the Norton India used with water is noticeably faster than a Shapton Kuromaku 220. After setting bevels on 10 knives ( mixed trash steel, AEBL and 52100 ), its about 4 times slower. Seems the stone is hard enough that it doesn't release enough fresh abrasive to stay at max performance. It might be this slowing tendency would be less pronounced with oil but when I tried it with oil, because I am using waterstones after, the time it takes to clean the oil off the blade is not worth it.
> 
> I tried refreshing the surface with a 140 diamond plate. As several have said, this makes it worse. My understanding is it takes some very low loose grit on glass to refresh the surface. Will try this but for me, the self refreshing aspect of a stone is pretty clutch. I mean I'll barely use soakers because of the extra effort.
> 
> I'm glad I tried it. Its an interesting stone that leaves an amazing edge for its grit, just not sure its for me.


Try rubbing a crap knife or some kind of steel across it really hard.


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## branwell (Mar 4, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Try rubbing a crap knife or some kind of steel across it really hard.


Will do!!


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## Mr.Wizard (Mar 4, 2022)

I may have asked before but this thread is an opportunity for current experience. Any direct experience with both the Sharpening Supplies XL Oil Stone Fine and the Norton India Fine, either current or vintage? I like the fact that the SS stones are Made in USA still and I've been meaning to get one if they compare favorably.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 4, 2022)

branwell said:


> I hate to be that guy but..... New out of the box the Norton India used with water is noticeably faster than a Shapton Kuromaku 220. After setting bevels on 10 knives ( mixed trash steel, AEBL and 52100 ), its about 4 times slower. Seems the stone is hard enough that it doesn't release enough fresh abrasive to stay at max performance. It might be this slowing tendency would be less pronounced with oil but when I tried it with oil, because I am using waterstones after, the time it takes to clean the oil off the blade is not worth it.
> 
> I tried refreshing the surface with a 140 diamond plate. As several have said, this makes it worse. My understanding is it takes some very low loose grit on glass to refresh the surface. Will try this but for me, the self refreshing aspect of a stone is pretty clutch. I mean I'll barely use soakers because of the extra effort.
> 
> I'm glad I tried it. Its an interesting stone that leaves an amazing edge for its grit, just not sure its for me.


I never noticed the shapton 220 glazing. It actually releases grit quite readily when I use it. Its still not particularly fast in my experience though. Not many redeeming qualities to that stone if I'm honest. The fine india is much faster, and seems to leave a better finish.

If I have any advice it's going to be use more pressure on that stone, also if anyone is going to get a low grit shapton make it the 120. And definitely use more pressure with that one. Once it gets a slurry going it tends to keep releasing more abrasive.


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## Williamchan87 (Mar 4, 2022)

esoo said:


> According to the pic, this is the same Norton stone (IB8)
> 
> 
> https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/sharpening/stones/33018-aluminum-oxide-oil-stones


Oh shiet it is the stone, I actually first searched on Lee Valley cause I knew they sell Norton stuff, but somehow i either didn't see it or cause it was the wrong colour, so I went to google/amazon/ebay etc. I guess I will have one soonish when I go down to the local Lee Valley which is middle of nowhere


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## M1k3 (Mar 4, 2022)

Mr.Wizard said:


> I may have asked before but this thread is an opportunity for current experience. Any direct experience with both the Sharpening Supplies XL Oil Stone Fine and the the Norton India Fine, either current or vintage? I like the fact that the SS stones are Made in USA still and I've been meaning to get one if they compare favorably.


I'd say nearly identical. If you were blindfolded you couldn't tell. The coloring is similar but different enough to tell them apart side by side.


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## cotedupy (Mar 4, 2022)

branwell said:


> I hate to be that guy but..... New out of the box the Norton India used with water is noticeably faster than a Shapton Kuromaku 220. After setting bevels on 10 knives ( mixed trash steel, AEBL and 52100 ), its about 4 times slower. Seems the stone is hard enough that it doesn't release enough fresh abrasive to stay at max performance. It might be this slowing tendency would be less pronounced with oil but when I tried it with oil, because I am using waterstones after, the time it takes to clean the oil off the blade is not worth it.
> 
> I tried refreshing the surface with a 140 diamond plate. As several have said, this makes it worse. My understanding is it takes some very low loose grit on glass to refresh the surface. Will try this but for me, the self refreshing aspect of a stone is pretty clutch. I mean I'll barely use soakers because of the extra effort.
> 
> I'm glad I tried it. Its an interesting stone that leaves an amazing edge for its grit, just not sure its for me.



If you want to use with water I would try degreasing it fully. I use one of my coarse Crystolons with water, and this effect was much less marked once I had got all of the original oil out of it. It may not feel oily atm, but if you degrease it then I suspect you might notice that it was oil-filled...


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## Williamchan87 (Mar 5, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> If you want to use with water I would try degreasing it fully. I use one of my coarse Crystolons with water, and this effect was much less marked once I had got all of the original oil out of it. It may not feel oily atm, but if you degrease it then I suspect you might notice that it was oil-filled...


TLDR, whats the most efficent way to flatten the stone, if it becomes not flat.


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## stringer (Mar 5, 2022)

Williamchan87 said:


> TLDR, whats the most efficent way to flatten the stone, if it becomes not flat.



Coarse loose SiC on a steel plate, granite tile, or plate glass. You can also use coarse SiC between two stones and then three stone method.


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## branwell (Mar 5, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> I never noticed the shapton 220 glazing. It actually releases grit quite readily when I use it.


Sorry I wasn't clear. The Shapton 220 doesn't glaze. If anything it refreshes its abrasive a little too fast.


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## jwthaparc (Mar 6, 2022)

branwell said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear. The Shapton 220 doesn't glaze. If anything it refreshes its abrasive a little too fast.


Ah ok. Well anyway. I agree. The norton india stones are definitely faster.


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## Desert Rat (Mar 8, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> If you want to use with water I would try degreasing it fully. I use one of my coarse Crystolons with water, and this effect was much less marked once I had got all of the original oil out of it. It may not feel oily atm, but if you degrease it then I suspect you might notice that it was oil-filled...


Have you tried adding dish soap to the water with out degreasing?


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## KingShapton (Mar 8, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> Have you tried adding dish soap to the water with out degreasing?


I tried degreasing with water/dish soap-mix. It worked so well that I ended up ordering a bottle of Simple Green  . Sometimes experimenting doesn't make sense, especially when a good working solution is so easy to get...


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Mar 8, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> Have you tried adding dish soap to the water with out degreasing?


I use my Crystolons with water and propylene glycol without degreasing the stones. As far as I can tell the pg doesn't solve the oil in the stone, but it breaks the surface tension allowing the water to wet. Originally I thought it would slowly work the oil out of the stone. Maybe it is, but not that I can tell.


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## Williamchan87 (Mar 8, 2022)

sansho said:


> Norton Combination India Stone
> 
> 
> The Norton Combination India stone is an Oil Stone made with aluminum oxide abrasive. These two-sided stones feature a Coarse India side for establishing an edge and a Fine India side for refining the edge.
> ...


Where I got mine it says:

These man-made bench stones are for basic work to bring an edge to a condition ready for final honing or general carpentry.

They do not cut as quickly as water stones of similar grit, but wear more slowly.

Both stones are 90x/600x combinations. The standard stone is 8" × 2" × 1"; the extra-large stone is 11 1/2" × 2 1/2" × 1".


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## Williamchan87 (Mar 8, 2022)

So I got my stone, so I sprayed bicycle chain/cassette degreaser on it, and the first thing to come off was the prints on the side of stone that says norton, product code and made in mexico. I didn;t scrub iot or anything, i just gave it a wash and noticed the printing was gone.


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## stringer (Mar 9, 2022)

I got a new one that is a synthetic I haven't seen before. It's speckled and patented. 













And it has a logo one one end. But pretty tough to make out. 






Maybe a cowboy holding an axe?






I haven't tried it yet. But I imagine it's going to be very similar to an India. Some sort of alox


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## branwell (Mar 9, 2022)

stringer said:


> I haven't seen before.


Oh yes. It's from Zereth Mortis. Used for sharpening argent mawsworn weapons.


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## Desert Rat (Mar 9, 2022)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> I use my Crystolons with water and propylene glycol without degreasing the stones. As far as I can tell the pg doesn't solve the oil in the stone, but it breaks the surface tension allowing the water to wet. Originally I thought it would slowly work the oil out of the stone. Maybe it is, but not that I can tell.


I'm doing the same with dish soap. I use it as a wetting agent at with oil stones because I mostly use them stones with oil.


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## deltaplex (Mar 9, 2022)

stringer said:


> I got a new one that is a synthetic I haven't seen before. It's speckled and patented.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a tiger head logo India to me


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## stringer (Mar 9, 2022)

deltaplex said:


> Looks like a tiger head logo India to me



It very well could be. Here's one of those cleaned up.


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## cotedupy (Mar 9, 2022)

stringer said:


> It very well could be. Here's one of those cleaned up.
> 
> View attachment 169206



Yeah it's definitely the same Norton India stamp.


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## cotedupy (Mar 9, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> Have you tried adding dish soap to the water with out degreasing?



No, does that work too? I do sometimes use with a bit of dish soap if I remember, but didn't try before I'd degreased.


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## Greasylake (Mar 14, 2022)

My India finally arrived in the mail, a week late  the surface is pretty nasty so I think I'll degrease it a bit before I use it, otherwise it looks like a fun stone.


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## stringer (Mar 14, 2022)

Greasylake said:


> My India finally arrived in the mail, a week late  the surface is pretty nasty so I think I'll degrease it a bit before I use it, otherwise it looks like a fun stone.
> View attachment 169990
> View attachment 169991
> View attachment 169992


That is a very old one. Pre 1930s. Edit

Norton/BehrManning acquired Pike in 1931. But it looks different than late 30s early 40s packaging. So probably early 30s. But I am out of my depth and making my own head spin


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## bsfsu (Mar 14, 2022)

Picked up this one, needs a clean




And I cleaned this one up but took off most of the logo......


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## KingShapton (Mar 15, 2022)

Greasylake said:


> My India finally arrived in the mail, a week late  the surface is pretty nasty so I think I'll degrease it a bit before I use it, otherwise it looks like a fun stone.
> View attachment 169990
> View attachment 169991
> View attachment 169992


Congratulations, that's a really nice catch.
Granted, I'm speaking from a collector's point of view, but this well-preserved box is a feast for the eyes! Seriously, the old design is insanely good and I like it so much better than today's designs from the packaging of the stones. I love old sweethearts like this.

Can you show us pictures of the stone after degreasing?


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## jwthaparc (Mar 15, 2022)

So, I got my crystalon last week. Sunday I brought it to work for the first time. It did great. Stayed relatively flat for the amount of knives I sharpened that day. 
I like it just as much as the india stone I think. If I could find a combination stone with a crystalon coarse, and fine india. In an 8x3 size. It would be the ideal stone. I can for sure say the crystalon coarse side is better than the india stones coarse side. 

The ace hardware store off brand SiC stone I have doesn't even compare to the norton.


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## KingShapton (Mar 15, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> So, I got my crystalon last week. Sunday I brought it to work for the first time. It did great. Stayed relatively flat for the amount of knives I sharpened that day.
> I like it just as much as the india stone I think. If I could find a combination stone with a crystalon coarse, and fine india. In an 8x3 size. It would be the ideal stone. I can for sure say the crystalon coarse side is better than the india stones coarse side.
> 
> The ace hardware store off brand SiC stone I have doesn't even compare to the norton.



Have you ever thought about gluing the stones together yourself?









Norton Crystolon Bench Stone 8" x 3"


SPECIAL: Save when you purchase all 3 grits. The Norton Crystolon bench stones are made of silicon carbide.



www.sharpeningsupplies.com













Norton India Bench Stone 8" x 3"


Save by purchasing all 3 grits. The Norton India stone is an oilstone made with aluminum oxide abrasive.



www.sharpeningsupplies.com





Alternatively, not quite as wide (2 1/2 instead of 3) but longer (11 1/2 instead of 8) but only with the medium Crystolon...









Norton Crystolon - India Combination Stone


Combines Fast Cutting Crystolon With Fine Finishing India The Norton Crystolon - India Combination Stone features one side of silicon carbide Medium Crystolon and one side of aluminum oxide Fine India to combine the best attributes of both types in one stone. Get the fast cutting action of the...



www.sharpeningsupplies.com


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## jwthaparc (Mar 15, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> Have you ever thought about gluing the stones together yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I'm going to do it, maybe the glueing it myself thing would work. The 8x3 is the perfect size for a stone imo. The other one would just be to thin and long. Also it needs to he the coarse crystolon. 

I wonder how well the adhesive would work with the stones full of oil. I actually wouldn't be interested in degreasing them, I like how they work with oil. I think it would be nice having that though. I would especially like the extra height. .


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## KingShapton (Mar 15, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> If I'm going to do it, maybe the glueing it myself thing would work. The 8x3 is the perfect size for a stone imo. The other one would just be to thin and long. Also it needs to he the coarse crystolon.
> 
> I wonder how well the adhesive would work with the stones full of oil. I actually wouldn't be interested in degreasing them, I like how they work with oil. I think it would be nice having that though. I would especially like the extra height. .


In principle, it must be possible to glue the stones together despite using oil.

I'm just not sure if gluing works with stones that are already impregnated with oil. You might have to degrease the stones beforehand. But maybe @cotedupy has an idea? Or maybe he already has experience with it?!


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## cotedupy (Mar 15, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> In principle, it must be possible to glue the stones together despite using oil.
> 
> I'm just not sure if gluing works with stones that are already impregnated with oil. You might have to degrease the stones beforehand. But maybe @cotedupy has an idea? Or maybe he already has experience with it?!



The only ones I've glued I've degreased as much as I could beforehand, because I tend to used epoxy and it's not going to work on an impregnated stone. I presume there are other types of glue that would though, and because you're not going to be sharpening on that surface (as opposed to repairing a cracked stone for instance) it won't matter at all what adhesive you use...


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## jwthaparc (Mar 15, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> The only ones I've glued I've degreased as much as I could beforehand, because I tend to used epoxy and it's not going to work on an impregnated stone. I presume there are other types of glue that would though, and because you're not going to be sharpening on that surface (as opposed to repairing a cracked stone for instance) it won't matter at all what adhesive you use...


Maybe contact cement? Theres one I have that says its oil and gas resistant. Idk if that's before it cures though.


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## Greasylake (Mar 15, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> Congratulations, that's a really nice catch.
> Granted, I'm speaking from a collector's point of view, but this well-preserved box is a feast for the eyes! Seriously, the old design is insanely good and I like it so much better than today's designs from the packaging of the stones. I love old sweethearts like this.
> 
> Can you show us pictures of the stone after degreasing?


The box was one of the reasons I got this specific stone, I'm a sucker for the fish haha. 

Stone is in the simple green, cleaning up quite quickly so I'll have some pics in a few days I think


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## Greasylake (Mar 26, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> Can you show us pictures of the stone after degreasing?


This is where the stone is now after degreasing. It had a lot of dirt or something on the surface that was oil and didn't clean off until today... so I might put it back in the simple green to see if I can get the surface a little prettier. Not sure though, it absorbs water so I might also just use it as it. 

I forget, what's the grit estimate for the medium Indias?


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## KingShapton (Mar 27, 2022)

@Greasylake Grit fine India is estimated at 320-400#. But in an American grit system, if we think in terms of JIS then the grit count should be a bit higher.


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## cotedupy (Mar 27, 2022)

Greasylake said:


> I forget, what's the grit estimate for the medium Indias?



_'Practically perfect in every way.'_


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## kayman67 (Mar 29, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> If I'm going to do it, maybe the glueing it myself thing would work. The 8x3 is the perfect size for a stone imo. The other one would just be to thin and long. Also it needs to he the coarse crystolon.
> 
> I wonder how well the adhesive would work with the stones full of oil. I actually wouldn't be interested in degreasing them, I like how they work with oil. I think it would be nice having that though. I would especially like the extra height. .



PU D4 works. I did some. 
But you need clamps (strong). It will expand and grip them together. At some point you need to "flatten" the extra into the sides. I'm not sure that they can ever be pulled apart once it's fully hardened, unless they are cut.


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## sansho (Mar 29, 2022)

my stone's a 1998 USA one (NOS, likely from around the end of US production), and i ran it under some water. even though the stone doesn't feel oily, it does smell like machine oil, and the surface is quite hydrophobic.

i don't have any simple green. i know it's useful stuff, and i should just buy a gallon. but i'm lazy.

so i rubbed a thick coating of dr bronner's liquid castile soap all over it and set it in an empty bucket. i'm hoping that some will work its way in via diffusion.

later, i'll dump some boiling water over it and maybe add more soap and let it sit.

will report back.


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## kayman67 (Mar 30, 2022)

Nortons are strong enough to be perfectly clean with most (maybe any) oven cleaner with no effort whatsoever.


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## sansho (Mar 30, 2022)

kayman67 said:


> Nortons are strong enough to be perfectly clean with most (maybe any) oven cleaner with no effort whatsoever.



hah. or maybe the pyrolytic cleaning cycle in an oven. preferably one not used for food.


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## kayman67 (Mar 30, 2022)

Don't know. Haven't tried. Just spray some liquid cleaner on it and let it sit there for a while. Remember to use protective gear. That thing usually is not gentle on skin at all.


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## sansho (Mar 30, 2022)

conc. NaOH etches ceramics. you didn't notice any change to the surface? maybe it doesn't matter since it's rough anyways though.


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## kayman67 (Mar 30, 2022)

Indeed, won't work with all oil stones.
No change with any Norton stones, even very fine surfaces were the same. I'll take a look in a couple of days to see what exactly is in it.


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## KingShapton (Mar 31, 2022)

sansho said:


> my stone's a 1998 USA one (NOS, likely from around the end of US production), and i ran it under some water. even though the stone doesn't feel oily, it does smell like machine oil, and the surface is quite hydrophobic.
> 
> i don't have any simple green. i know it's useful stuff, and i should just buy a gallon. but i'm lazy.
> 
> ...


That's what I used to think too... in the end I gave myself a lot more work due to my own lazyness and with bad results.

In the end I got tired of it and ordered a bottle of Simple Green - and after seeing the results I could have kicked myself for not ordering the Simple Green sooner!

Alternatively, it might be an idea to boil the stone to get the oil out...or just order a bottle of Simple Green


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## Skylar303 (Apr 3, 2022)

Double on the SG. I bought a gallon like 5 years ago, still have 1/5th left.

So I finally got motivated to start cleaning some India stones... I never took notice but these both are 7"? IB7? Both I believe were bought as a set used. I figured they were either IB6/8. (IB=India Bench?) Haven't really seen a 7". Maybe someone with more experience has seen them?

Start.



Some faded lettering on the medium.


Lefts definitely a medium, can see the stamp. I can only make out India on the other.


1st 24 hours.


2nd day.


I think the previous owner used vegetable oil or similar. The stones had a almost rancid smell which you wouldn't get with honing oil. And after the 1st soak they felt like they were coated in motor grease. Had to leave the brush in as well, as all the bristles were clogged with thick black gunk. SG cleaned it pretty good also just soaking. (FWIW)


That weird black spot looks like a gouge but it's just really concentrated oil or something... The nice Terracotta color in the medium is coming out nicely. But unfortunately I lost all the stamps on these stones, which doesn't usually happen in SG. Well in my experiences with it. Maybe due to the age and maybe the oil used made them come off?


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## sansho (Apr 3, 2022)

on some of these stones where household/cooking oils were used... in theory, that crap should be really hard to remove. oxidized, polymerized oil. shouldn't be very soluble anymore with soap. if you hit a road block, maybe try acetone soak?


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## Skylar303 (Apr 7, 2022)

Fresh out the bath. Too bad they lost all their stamps... But IB7? And a India Medium. So should have my bases covered.


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## Skylar303 (Apr 9, 2022)

I'm getting around to de-greasing old stones. Found this old Norton inida combination. (Right) Still needs a clean but wasn't used much. 

Noticed something interesting. Compared to the one I just cleaned. The fine side is a more fired Terracotta color than tan. (The fine side color is similar to the coarse side of the left stone) And the coarse side looks more like SiC. (Black) I believe the right one is older.


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## sansho (Jul 12, 2022)

i finally got around to using mine, and i really like it.

i used it on a pocket knife that i've had trouble with.

i wrote about it some here:






Trouble Sharpening Spyderco CTS XHP


i have a spyderco chaparral pocket knife in CTS-XHP, and i've never had so much trouble sharpening a knife. first of all, that protruding finger guard right at the heel of the blade makes it pretty annoying to work the first 5-10mm. that aside... i'm using the jki gesshin stone set. i have...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





basically, something about the short blade and the profile trips me up. i'm not great at sharpening anything, but i've had much better luck with kitchen knives.

i've tried several times with full sharpening progressions, and i could never get it consistently sharp all the way along the profile. i've been settling for an edge that cleanly slices printer paper along the flat part but then kinda snags from the belly to tip. i've just been living with that and stropping with diamond spray on leather to maintain it. i occasionally fully re-sharpen, but i've never gotten better results until now...

tonight, i felt inspired after re-reading my thread where i asked for help. i was looking carefully at the bevel, and i think @Steampunk was absolutely right:



Steampunk said:


> ...
> The JKI set (400 ceramic, 2000 ceramic, 6000 resinoid.) is nice, but not for this sort of steel so much. Tends to create more rounded edges on something like this, than the sort of knives Jon normally sharpens. I'd advise picking up a plate (Dianova 600/1200 diamond, Ultrasharp 400/1000 diamond Spyderco 400/800 CBN, etc.), to give yourself really precise geometry as a baseline...
> ...
> The edge area behind the ricasso needs to be sharpened simply at more of a 90-degree angle to the stone, with a bit more pressure towards the handle to create a uniform bevel. Harder stones/plates make it easier to make this part of the bevel match the rest, than with muddier/softer stones like the JKI trio.



the bevel actually did look kinda rounded. almost like a convex bevel. though i've picked up harder stones in the medium-fine/fine range since then, i didn't have a hard, coarse stone until now. only a 400 grit soft soaker.

*this time, i really took my time.* i put sharpie on that sucker every single time i flipped the knife over. sometimes even between passes on the same side.

i started with both sides of the india combo. the feedback i got out of it was actually pretty helpful. i could actually sort of feel when i was on the bevel i just created, and this was a first for me. it seemed to slide over the stone a little more smoothly when i was hitting the same angle.

then i went to my JKI diamond resinoid set (1k and then 6k). these are both quite hard as well.

at the end on the 6k, i was just barely moving the knife around on the stone and lightly polishing the bevel.

finished it up on diamond loaded leather strop.

kind of pathetic that after all that, i couldn't cut paper towel with it (have only achieved this with shirogami kitchen knife). but i COULD cleanly slice printer paper along any part of the profile, which is a first for me on this knife. good enough for a pocket knife anyways.

also, the bevel looks a bit flatter and crisper than my previous attempts.

i think this is the perfect extra-coarse/medium-coarse stone. using that and the JKI stones, i didn't even have to work in the sink. working at the table with a spray bottle is so much more ergonomic and much less messy.


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## cotedupy (Jul 12, 2022)

sansho said:


> i finally got around to using mine, and i really like it.
> 
> i used it on a pocket knife that i've had trouble with.
> 
> ...




I find sharpening pocket knives incredibly difficult as well, and no idea what I'm doing wrong.

I like to think I'm ok at kitchen knife sharpening, understand how bevels and geometry works, and I can hone a razor pretty acceptably now too. But pocket / EDC knives I'm completely lost on!


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## jwthaparc (Jul 12, 2022)

My guess are problems that people who are used to sharpening kitchen knives run into with pocket knives are mainly 2, maybe 3 things.

Size. Probably the biggest difference. A pocket knife is obviously much smaller. The movements going from tip to heel happen in a much short period of time. Meaning the raising of the handle to get the proper contact near the tip, then lowering it again to sharpen the rest of the knife.

Steel. Pocket knives tend to have a much bigger variety of steel. This obviously depends on the knife, the maker, and about a million other variables. But many pocket knife makers aren't afraid to use steels with much higher wear resistance.

Blade shape. The variation in blade shape is also much bigger from knife to knife. Different grinds, different factors to deal with. Like plunge grinds. Getting a pocket knife sharpened all the way to the plunge is something that isn't even thought about with a Japanese kitchen knife. Because there are no plunge grinds.

Even with all 3 of these things combined. It doesn't mean anyone in particular shouldn't be able to sharpen a pocket knife. These things need to properly be taken into account, and honestly just practice. Go buy a super cheap pocket knife that you don't care about sharpening away, and sharpen it over and over until you get just as good as you are with a gyuto. And the weirder the shape of the knife the better.

One thing I've done with various types of blades (like tools, knives, whatever) I buy one of them just so I can have something to give myself some kind of experience with.


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## captaincaed (Jul 12, 2022)

It's not in your head, sharpening pocket knives is a total pain in the ass compared to kitchen knives!


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## coxhaus (Jul 12, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Right, now that I have your attention... I am not going to disappoint. Here is a picture of it:
> 
> View attachment 167211
> 
> ...



I was given a Norton oil stone when I was a boy after I got my first pocketknife. I have mine around here some place.


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## coxhaus (Jul 12, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I find sharpening pocket knives incredibly difficult as well, and no idea what I'm doing wrong.
> 
> I like to think I'm ok at kitchen knife sharpening, understand how bevels and geometry works, and I can hone a razor pretty acceptably now too. But pocket / EDC knives I'm completely lost on!


What I was taught is to sharpen to the curve of the knife around 20 degrees in slices. There is no back and forth sharpening and no thinning.

A powered WorkSharp is the fastest or belt system.


----------



## stringer (Jul 12, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> What I was taught is to sharpen to the curve of the knife around 20 degrees in slices. There is no back and forth sharpening and no thinning.
> 
> A powered WorkSharp is the fastest or belt system.


The aha moment for me was when I realized just how axe like the grind on most of these things is. I do thin them gradually the same as I would a kitchen knife. But I don't go all the way down to zero grind / raising a burr because I convex the cutting bevels a bit intentionally. So I thin a little every year or two with back and forth scrubbing strokes. Then I keep them sharp by doing long sweeping strokes. No back and forth. And the actual cutting angle is really high like @coxhaus said. 35-40 degrees inclusive. I think a lot of the problem people have is they just aren't making it to the apex. Especially near the tip if they aren't lifting their elbow enough like @jwthaparc said above.


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## jwthaparc (Jul 12, 2022)

stringer said:


> The aha moment for me was when I realized just how axe like the grind on most of these things is. I do thin them gradually the same as I would a kitchen knife. But I don't go all the way down to zero grind / raising a burr because I convex the cutting bevels a bit intentionally. So I thin a little every year or two with back and forth scrubbing strokes. Then I keep them sharp by doing long sweeping strokes. No back and forth. And the actual cutting angle is really high like @coxhaus said. 35-40 degrees inclusive. I think a lot of the problem people have is they just aren't making it to the apex. Especially near the tip if they aren't lifting their elbow enough like @jwthaparc said above.


I will say. I actually do thin my pocket knives too, depending on the grind. which is why I really like spyderco's. I mean, you call it regrinding, but its really just the same thing. 

Anyway, since these knives are in steels like maxamet, and k390 (mine specifically are). I'll take them, and do all the thinning on my belt sander. Plus it allows me to maintain a similar look on the plunge grind. I personally like my pocket knives almost just as thin as my kitchen knives. I never use them to chop anything just cut stuff. So a thinner grind is better for me.


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## captaincaed (Jul 12, 2022)

Also not insignificant: The substantially wider bevel means more time grinding since your surface area has increased more than you'd think. This equates to proportionally less pressure, and less grinding power over time. Makes angle consistency tougher too.


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## Desert Rat (Jul 14, 2022)

I picked up a India coarse fine combo a few weeks ago. It was so dirty I couldn't tell what it was. It's badly glazed and I'm having a hell of a time getting it to open back up. 
Is there a source for cheap diamond plates at least 2"x 8"?
I did pick up some 80 grit sic powder yesterday so I will see how that goes.


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## stringer (Jul 14, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> I picked up a India coarse fine combo a few weeks ago. It was so dirty I couldn't tell what it was. It's badly glazed and I'm having a hell of a time getting it to open back up.
> Is there a source for cheap diamond plates at least 2"x 8"?
> I did pick up some 80 grit sic powder yesterday so I will see how that goes.


Chef knifes to go has one that is passable for pretty cheap.


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## sansho (Jul 14, 2022)

do you think it's appropriate to jump from the fine side of a (new) india combo to shapton glass 4k? i don't have SG4k to test, but someone asked me that.


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## deltaplex (Jul 14, 2022)

sansho said:


> do you think it's appropriate to jump from the fine side of a (new) india combo to shapton glass 4k? i don't have SG4k to test, but someone asked me that.


It'll give you one hell of a combo edge.


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## jwthaparc (Jul 14, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> I picked up a India coarse fine combo a few weeks ago. It was so dirty I couldn't tell what it was. It's badly glazed and I'm having a hell of a time getting it to open back up.
> Is there a source for cheap diamond plates at least 2"x 8"?
> I did pick up some 80 grit sic powder yesterday so I will see how that goes.


80 grit will probably work fine. If not I bought some 36 grit sic powder, and that stuff works on even the coarsest stones. 


The only problem is I haven't found a surface the 36 grit wont eat through, and make not flat in a relatively short time.


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## jwthaparc (Jul 14, 2022)

sansho said:


> do you think it's appropriate to jump from the fine side of a (new) india combo to shapton glass 4k? i don't have SG4k to test, but someone asked me that.


I've never used the shapton 4k. I think you could go from the fine india to a suehiro rika and have a nice edge. If that helps answer the question?


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## M1k3 (Jul 15, 2022)

sansho said:


> do you think it's appropriate to jump from the fine side of a (new) india combo to shapton glass 4k? i don't have SG4k to test, but someone asked me that.


Yes it is.


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## cotedupy (Jul 17, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> I picked up a India coarse fine combo a few weeks ago. It was so dirty I couldn't tell what it was. It's badly glazed and I'm having a hell of a time getting it to open back up.
> Is there a source for cheap diamond plates at least 2"x 8"?
> I did pick up some 80 grit sic powder yesterday so I will see how that goes.




I’d be doing this on super coarse SiC rather than diamond tbh, concrete might work even better. Or even a metal rasp / file.

Indias are frightenly hard in terms of their composition, and whatever you do it’d need to be at heavy pressure on something coarse.


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## Legion74 (Jul 17, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> I picked up a India coarse fine combo a few weeks ago. It was so dirty I couldn't tell what it was. It's badly glazed and I'm having a hell of a time getting it to open back up.
> Is there a source for cheap diamond plates at least 2"x 8"?
> I did pick up some 80 grit sic powder yesterday so I will see how that goes.


Give it a good squirt with oven cleaner, let it sit for ten minutes, and then scrub it with a wire brush. Give it a wash with dish soap to get the oven cleaner off, and you should be good to apply new oil and use it.


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## jwthaparc (Jul 17, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I’d be doing this on super coarse SiC rather than diamond tbh, concrete might work even better. Or even a metal rasp / file.
> 
> Indias are frightenly hard in terms of their composition, and whatever you do it’d need to be at heavy pressure on something coarse.


Wouldn't that ruin the file, or rasp?


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## cotedupy (Jul 18, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Wouldn't that ruin the file, or rasp?




Yeah might do. Perhaps best to use the kind of beaten up old rusty one that seem to be everywhere for about $1.

The reason I suggested that is because I understand they're meant to be made out of extremely high hardness steel (?)


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## jwthaparc (Jul 18, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Yeah might do. Perhaps best to use the kind of beaten up old rusty one that seem to be everywhere for about $1.
> 
> The reason I suggested that is because I understand they're meant to be made out of extremely high hardness steel (?)


I mean. It could work possibly. I've never tried it. 

I believe they're either just very hard high carbon steels that havent been tempered down. Or they're just case hardened. Depending on who made it


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## sansho (Jul 19, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> I picked up a India coarse fine combo a few weeks ago. It was so dirty I couldn't tell what it was. It's badly glazed and I'm having a hell of a time getting it to open back up.



did you make any progress? just curious


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## sansho (Jul 19, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Boil it. Might have a wax or petroleum jelly filling



ding ding ding. you're absolutely right.

i'm guessing many or all of them are filled with paraffin or some other wax. it's oil compatible, and it won't soak through the cardboard packaging via wicking like oil and make a mess on the store's shelf and customer's hand.

i tried some dr bronners soaks with boiling water, and i think boiling water is what really helped the most.

now i have simple green to try, and i have been using it, but it doesn't look like the wax is actually soluble in simple green solution. this isn't a surprise.

since you all say it works, i'm guessing that a long simple green soak does work well enough, but i seriously doubt it's removing the wax soaked deep into the stone. i'm guessing it just cleans up the surface enough to use.

i've poured a kettle full of boiling water over the stone in a bucket several times, and each time, a bunch of fresh wax bubbles out of the stone. it's kind of cool to watch it come out and float to the surface (it's less dense than water).

unfortunately, it only stays hot enough to make the wax nice and thin for a little while each time.

i need to find a way to actually boil the stone (maybe even in a simple green solution). i'm convinced that's gotta be the best way to clean these, but i don't have any sacrificial cookware right now. maybe i can make a double boiler or "sous vide" it in the oven in a heavy duty ziplock filled with water. of course i'll have a drip pan under it in case of accidental leaks. or maybe i can just find a cheap pot at good will.

edit: action shot of residue from most recent soak in boiling water. it was a clean bucket before this soak. the residue floats up and then sticks to the side when it cools a little:


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## sansho (Jul 20, 2022)

ok, i came up with a pretty darn good setup.

sometimes being a hoarder pays off. i've been saving this stupid broken deep fryer for >10 years (i use my control freak for frying now).

the oil vessel from it is stainless and works on my induction stove.

i have it in a double layer of ziplock bag to contain the mess. that wax is annoying to wipe out of containers one it's solidified.

the fryer basket that sits in there keeps the bag off of the bottom just in case it gets too hot and melts or something. also, i can rattle the fryer handle periodically to release globs of wax from the stone so they float to the surface.

clearly this isn't necessary to use the stone with water, but i just want to see how much crap i can pull out of it. 











you can see some wax already coming out of the stone in the second pic


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## M1k3 (Jul 20, 2022)

sansho said:


> ding ding ding. you're absolutely right.
> 
> i'm guessing many or all of them are filled with paraffin or some other wax. it's oil compatible, and it won't soak through the cardboard packaging via wicking like oil and make a mess on the store's shelf and customer's hand.
> 
> ...


Thrift. Store.


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## Desert Rat (Jul 20, 2022)

sansho said:


> did you make any progress? just curious


Yes, it's better, 80 grit worked ok. Three stone method after that to flatten. I would never mess with one that had much of a dish.


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## sansho (Jul 20, 2022)

here's what came out after an overnight boil:






mind you that this was *after* several long soaks in dr bronners and simple green. and also after soaking in boiling water several times.

here's how the stone looked after:






i wiped off what was on the surface and put it in a bucket for another long simple green soak because i'm out of time to mess with it for a while.

my friend just got one of these, and i'll probably give his the same treatment eventually.

for fun, i'll weigh his stone before and after to measure how much wax is possible to remove.

i'll also collect some of the goop and calculate its density. with that, i can estimate the porosity of the stone.


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## Legion74 (Jul 20, 2022)

This is on the box of an old Australian Abrasives stone. Tells you to soak the stone in a pan of hot Vaseline, so yep, it’s petroleum jelly filled.


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## sansho (Jul 20, 2022)

yeah, i can easily see it being petroleum jelly. or wax + oil. or some high boiling hydrocarbon fraction.

boiling the stone in hexane or something would probably be a pretty good way of cleaning it. obviously you'd want to use proper PPE and/or a fume hood.


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## Desert Rat (Jul 21, 2022)

stringer said:


> The aha moment for me was when I realized just how axe like the grind on most of these things is. I do thin them gradually the same as I would a kitchen knife. But I don't go all the way down to zero grind / raising a burr because I convex the cutting bevels a bit intentionally. So I thin a little every year or two with back and forth scrubbing strokes. Then I keep them sharp by doing long sweeping strokes. No back and forth. And the actual cutting angle is really high like @coxhaus said. 35-40 degrees inclusive. I think a lot of the problem people have is they just aren't making it to the apex. Especially near the tip if they aren't lifting their elbow enough like @jwthaparc said above.


 Sounds really similar to my approach. 
What I do on almost all of my pocket and hunting knifes is make two bevels. It's about like a convex edge and sort of is really because I can't hold a perfect angle. I lay the knife at a more acute angle than intended on the coarser stone, a few degrees or so. Then I raise the angle on the finisher to my intended angle. I don't really care about getting the knife sharp on the first stone, no need.

It's an approximation of a convex edge, much more than a micro bevel, but not a true convex edge. It can be maintained by just sharpening the apex, like I would likely do in the field or hitting the secondary bevel also, usually with out the need to go back to a coarser stone.


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## cotedupy (Jul 23, 2022)

Legion74 said:


> This is on the box of an old Australian Abrasives stone. Tells you to soak the stone in a pan of hot Vaseline, so yep, it’s petroleum jelly filled.
> 
> View attachment 189425




Was that my old Crystolon one...?

But yeah - Indias are often oil filled too. Not always, but often.


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## 4wa1l (Jul 23, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Was that my old Crystolon one...?
> 
> But yeah - Indias are often oil filled too. Not always, but often.


Do you know of anywhere that they're sold without oil?


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## cotedupy (Jul 23, 2022)

4wa1l said:


> Do you know of anywhere that they're sold without oil?



I’ve never actually bought one new tbh. Ping me a message with your address again and I’ll send you the one in the OP, it doesn’t have much, if any, oil in it any more.

(I have a few various Indias, so that one is all yours if you’d like ).


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## Luftmensch (Jul 23, 2022)

4wa1l said:


> Do you know of anywhere that they're sold without oil?



As far as I know, all current _retail_ aluminium oxide (india) stones sold by Norton are oil-filled. Perhaps there are some harder to find non-oil filled India stones out there? I havent seen them. Non-oil filled silicon carbide (crystolon) stones are common enough. Why they offer 'clean' crystolon stones and no 'clean' india stones is a beyond me 

Since crystolon was mentioned... if, for whatever reason, @cotedupy's generous offer does not work out... google "Silicon carbide - Non oil" or "BE146587". You can find them from a bunch of local retailers for $40-$80 new. Clearly this is more expensive than getting a 'vintage' one and degreasing it... but it is also less hassle than flattening and degreasing an old one. You also get peace of mind that the stone was never dunked in a bucket of leaded petrol... or whatever... The rough side is useful/interesting. I dont have much love for the fine side! ... At our Aussie inflated prices... it might be better just to buy a Shapton Pro 220 or a Glass 500....

... I havent tried an India combo so maybe the value proposition is different. If you dont put a price on cleaning and flattening a stone, buying a used one from an antique or knick-knack shop (or sift around ebay) is the best value.


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## 4wa1l (Jul 23, 2022)

I'm pretty sure I currently have the coarse/fine Crystolon but can't fully get the oil out. I love the coarse side when I need to remove some serious metal and that side is mostly clean now. 

The fine side seems useful to clean up the coarse scratches before moving to other stones but still has a lot of oil that leaves this messy metal/oily gunk on the knives that requires some effort to clean. 

I figure together they'd make a very useful combo stone to sharpen softer stainless for family and friends. The fine side especially seems like a nice bridge between the coarse side and a ~1000 grit stone.


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## Legion74 (Jul 23, 2022)

If you want a non oil filled SIC stone, try your local Asian grocery store. They usually sell them (Diamond Brand, etc). I have also seen them pop up as a weekly special at Aldi.


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## Legion74 (Jul 23, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> Was that my old Crystolon one...?
> 
> But yeah - Indias are often oil filled too. Not always, but often.


Actually it is, but from memory that Aussie Abrasives India I bought and then returned to the seller had the same on the back.


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## sansho (Aug 8, 2022)

water almost falls through this thing now. i wonder if i can still use it as S&G or if i need to soak it.



this is after letting the stone dry out, btw. i haven't played with it much yet.


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## kayman67 (Aug 9, 2022)

Soaking won't do much for long. It's not designed to hold water. Use something to keep water on the surface. Mix it with water soluble oil, liquid soap, baking soda and so on.


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## deltaplex (Aug 9, 2022)

Pretty much this, it won't retain water, at all, in it's non-oil filled state


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## sansho (Aug 9, 2022)

oh, it definitely retains moisture. excess just might not pool on the surface anymore since it's such a porous stone.

i'll see how it is to sharpen on. it will be funny if i decide i liked it more in a partially-degreased state. i guess i could add a little back in if i really want.

it's possible that the stone actually works best with water when it's still jelly-filled, but the surface has been stripped. that way, water can soak in just a bit to interact with the surface to lube the knife and clean the swarf out.


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## Skylar303 (Aug 26, 2022)

Little late and the answer was pretty much already answered but yeah I got a 8" India combi for a friend and she wanted me to dress the stone for use. Long story short, got lazy sat around for a while, went up to the cabin for the day was flattening and chamfered the edges. Anyways went to do something else forgot about it in the sun, came back about 30m later to this. Annnd looking back should of tried for a better pic, was so dang sunny... The stone was in a pool of oil and about 110° almost too hot to hold with bare hands.






A little hard to see but the swirls are pools of oil that leaked out sitting on the top (which was the bottom when it was in the sun). (I should of taken a pic of what it was sitting on...) I wouldn't call it wax as it never fully reset.

FWIW, what I was trying to get at. If the weather's nice and it gets relatively hot where you are, pop it outside on some black trash bag and the oil will just flow out. And then a quick SG soak for the surface stuff again.


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## Legion74 (Aug 28, 2022)

Has anyone heard of Clover Abrasives of Japan? The label is obviously a not terribly subtle nod to Norton.


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