# Edge losing tooth but can't pop hairs? Over polishing



## SolidSnake03 (Jul 12, 2020)

Hey guys,

Okay so this has been bugging me for a while now regarding finer grit stones. It seems that ever time I go from a coarser/medium grit stone like a Shapton Glass 500 or Shapton Pro 1000 to something like a King 6k/Arayashiama 6k/Coticule etc.. I lose all the edges toothiness. It get a nice shiny polished edge, bright light reflection from it and wonderful paper cutting (smooth and easy) but it sucks for food. I can fiddle on a tomato without cutting it. Sharpie and the newly shiny edge show that im definitely hitting the edge. Stropping on charged balsa or denim doesnt help bring the bite back. Interestingly when I go from Shapton pro 1k to 12k with no stones in the middle I can pop hairs all day and have a pretty good tomato edge. No idea why that is happening. 

My coarse and medium grit edges (1k Shapton pro or Glass 500) can't shave hair at all, just scrape up skin flakes but can cut paper easily and work fine on food.

I'm at a bit of a loss here to be honest. Happening on cheap **** stainless to nice stainless to good carbon so it's something wrong in my technique I know.

Wondering if you all can help troubleshoot this one for me  

Shapton Pro 1k to 12k on Takamura Chromax and on TF W#1 petty shaved hair pic included for fun.


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## M1k3 (Jul 12, 2020)

I'm probably beginning to be like a broken record, but, try this out


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 12, 2020)

Will do. Thanks!

Also, my apologies for not including this in the original post but I know knives are for food and not hair. I know that it's about how it performs in food etc... Etc... I'm not trying to show off shaving with a kitchen knife and what not. 

I'm asking this as a way to better understand what I'm doing wrong here and why I'm seeing the interesting results of one combo shaving (Shapton Pro 1k and 12k) while others don't and also the odd food performance results. Trying to correlate what those edge tests are indicating about what I'm doing wrong with my sharpening/edges and then fixing it to become a more proficient sharpener (who understands what's going on and why) all around vs. just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it works.

Thanks all!


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 12, 2020)

Does that happen with all blades or just with the old ones? It sounds like a bit of thinning could help.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 12, 2020)

Across all blades


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## James (Jul 12, 2020)

Edge might be getting rounded with all of the high grit stones. For those of us hand sharpening, we can't perfectly maintain whatever angle we're gunning for and there's a bit of wiggling. Spending more time on higher grit stones is exacerbating the issue, as you're grinding, but not really cutting enough steel to create a new apex. I'd recommend slowing down, being careful with your angles and making sure you have a good edge after each stone.


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## ian (Jul 12, 2020)

My guess is the following. When you use the 6k stones, you polish the edge but you don’t hold a great angle, so you get a rounded edge with no big teeth, which doesn’t perform well. When you have a 1k edge, you have lots of teeth to tear into the food you’re cutting, so it works reasonably well. When you do 1k to 12k, the 12k stone isn’t fast enough to remove the teeth of the 1k, so you still have sort of a 1k edge, but the apex is polished a bit so you can pop hairs.

I’m not sure what you have is really a deburring problem, like in the vid @M1k3 linked, but rather a more general sharpening problem.


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## M1k3 (Jul 12, 2020)

I wasn't thinking de-burring problem. Doing the edge leading strokes leaves a little more bite. 

But I think you're onto something. The 6k is probably working fast enough for the amount of time to lose bite. Whereas the 12k is slower and leaving some 1k scratches behind. Added to the wobbling. And then stropping...


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 12, 2020)

Thanks all. So building upon the general sharpening problem issue, would the general sharpening problem be wobble then and not holding a consistent angle therefore resulting in edge rounding as I move up in grits? Any recommended tips to combat wobble then aside from slowing down and consciously maintaining a steady angle? I seem to do better with more pressure as well, IE. sharpening harder and faster seems to work out better. Maybe less strokes and less time to round the edge leading to better edge overall?


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## kayman67 (Jul 12, 2020)

Yeah. Get a soft 1000 stone (King, Suehiro) and use it until you can shave hair, cut tomatoes and so on, constantly. After that, use whatever you like. 

*with 12k something does happen, in a positive way, since 1k can't shave anything. So, on top of everything, some burr could still be present as well.


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## dafox (Jul 12, 2020)

Sounds to me like it's mostly the difference between a toothy lower grit edge and a polished higher grit edge, I dont know that you're necessarily doing anything wrong. Am I missing something here?


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## ian (Jul 12, 2020)

dafox said:


> Sounds to me like it's mostly the difference between a toothy lower grit edge and a polished higher grit edge, I dont know that you're necessarily doing anything wrong. Am I missing something here?



6k should be able to cut tomato and blaze through food just fine.


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## M1k3 (Jul 12, 2020)

SolidSnake03 said:


> Thanks all. So building upon the general sharpening problem issue, would the general sharpening problem be wobble then and not holding a consistent angle therefore resulting in edge rounding as I move up in grits? Any recommended tips to combat wobble then aside from slowing down and consciously maintaining a steady angle? I seem to do better with more pressure as well, IE. sharpening harder and faster seems to work out better. Maybe less strokes and less time to round the edge leading to better edge overall?


More practice.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 12, 2020)

Thanks for the responses everyone, appreciate it greatly. Does sound like it's more work and practice then. The tricky part dafox is that I should be able to cut tomatoes and stuff easily with a 6k edge but I'm not. Yet when I go to the Shapton pro 12k I'm getting killer edges that pop hairs/ping along with cutting tomatoes. So the weird sticking spot is what I'm doing badly or wrong in the 6k range but yet when I skip from 1k to 12k it's pretty good overall. I think the 12k not removing the 1k teeth much is possibly a good explanation? Yet me not being able to shave hairs off a 1k is a sign that I need more work overall at that mid grit sharpening range/more practice in general.


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## PappaG (Jul 12, 2020)

Strange. Do you have a 3k or 4k, or even 5k you could use to experiment and figure this out?


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 12, 2020)

Good question! I've got a Suehiro Rika 5k and a Shapton Glass 4k but won't be able to grab them until in home next week to try out. I'll give it a shot and report back.


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## soigne_west (Jul 12, 2020)

Seems like a problem I was having with my Kip. I’ll link the thread below. I don’t use many high alloy or stainless but his HT of 52100 was giving me trouble. It ended up being a deburring issue. I ended using edge leading strokes to remove the burr. 






253 kippington in 52100


Hey guys. I was wondering if anyone could give me any sharpening tips. I consider myself a better than average sharpener. However this knife seems to be giving me some trouble. Tried different stone progressions. Finishing on a 5k rika. Finishing on a 2k glass. Broida’s deburring technique...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 12, 2020)

Interesting on the deburring, I would think that may be it but it happens regardless of steel and I'm already deburring on cork and soft wood after edge leading stropping style light strokes following burr flipping sharpening on each side. If this was only a problem on harder to deburr stuff I'd for sure think that was it but it happens on White #1 too which is easy as all get out to sharpen and deburr....


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## bahamaroot (Jul 12, 2020)

You should be able to shave hair off the 500 or 1000 if you have a good apex. If you can't shave off either of these stones you don't have a good edge and moving up to higher grits isn't going to fix that. You should also be using very light pressure on your higher grit stones.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 13, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> You should be able to shave hair off the 500 or 1000 if you have a good apex. If you can't shave off either of these stones you don't have a good edge and moving up to higher grits isn't going to fix that. You should also be using very light pressure on your higher grit stones.



I appreciate the comment on this and it definitely makes logical sense but something with it doesn't jive with what I'm actually experiencing. My Shapton 1k pro edge can't shave at all, like it's just scraping skin off but taking that edge directly to the Shapton 12k pro gives me a killer edge for hair popping and food and all the typical tests. Prior someone mentioned that this was maybe cleaning up the 1k teeth enough to pass the tests and perform well without over polishing the edge like a 6k stone might because the 6k is working much faster. 

It's odd but taking a meh 500-1000 edge to 12k does make it massively better and pretty great in the kitchen and in tests.

The part I was trying to figure out initally was why taking that same meh 500-1000 edge to a 6k stone results in it kinda sucking overall.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 13, 2020)

You could try hitting the stones with just a little bit lower angle (still hitting the edge, but not the apex) and see what you get.


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## MoabDave (Jul 13, 2020)

So, the end result of popping hair AND slicing toms is an issue because why?(12k vs 6k finish issue)
Maybe my practical nature is showing through, but if I'm getting the results I want, toms become salsa or BLT's, then yay for that.

Because the concern I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong please, is you are trying to refine your technique or understand why the 6k finish yields different results than the 12k.

Is the edge holding up? Does a touch up on the 12k bring it right back?


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## kayman67 (Jul 13, 2020)

SolidSnake03 said:


> I appreciate the comment on this and it definitely makes logical sense but something with it doesn't jive with what I'm actually experiencing. My Shapton 1k pro edge can't shave at all, like it's just scraping skin off but taking that edge directly to the Shapton 12k pro gives me a killer edge for hair popping and food and all the typical tests. Prior someone mentioned that this was maybe cleaning up the 1k teeth enough to pass the tests and perform well without over polishing the edge like a 6k stone might because the 6k is working much faster.
> 
> It's odd but taking a meh 500-1000 edge to 12k does make it massively better and pretty great in the kitchen and in tests.
> 
> The part I was trying to figure out initally was why taking that same meh 500-1000 edge to a 6k stone results in it kinda sucking overall.



Well, consider this.
Some people do use the 1000-10000 combo with great results and are happy.
Secondly, if you found something that works, do it more. Eventually everything will improve little by little. But my guess was that since the 12k edge is so good, you might experience some burr problems after 1000, as well. Now, that 1000 is a fast stone, with grit more like 600 to 800. And since you seem to struggle with mid fine stones, I also guess there are some pressure/consistency problems. 12k is just slow enough to make them irrelevant. But it works.

The reality is that you could sharpen to shave hair after 500. If this bugs you, train more. Ideally, would have been with a softer true mid grit stone. Not too much of anything going on and the right amount of everything important for you to improve.


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## Jville (Jul 13, 2020)

SolidSnake03 said:


> I appreciate the comment on this and it definitely makes logical sense but something with it doesn't jive with what I'm actually experiencing. My Shapton 1k pro edge can't shave at all, like it's just scraping skin off but taking that edge directly to the Shapton 12k pro gives me a killer edge for hair popping and food and all the typical tests. Prior someone mentioned that this was maybe cleaning up the 1k teeth enough to pass the tests and perform well without over polishing the edge like a 6k stone might because the 6k is working much faster.
> 
> It's odd but taking a meh 500-1000 edge to 12k does make it massively better and pretty great in the kitchen and in tests.
> 
> The part I was trying to figure out initally was why taking that same meh 500-1000 edge to a 6k stone results in it kinda sucking overall.


Do you strop on your 1k Shapton at the end? They seemed to lose bite really quick. That being said they could definitely shave. Sharon pro 1k is the stone I've used more than any other. There are sometimes that I wasn't able to shave after it, I think. But that's usually a basic test for me off of that and it usually shaves. Like others have mentioned, I have shaved off a 320 shapton before, which surprised me at the time. Now, regarding cheap stainless, I would take them out of the equation and not put that type of pressure on yourself. Atleast, get your edges down on good steel, before you stress over cheap stainless. How long are you spending on the 6k, maybe you are over doing it. Perhaps, just try a few strokes test, then a few strokes test, etc. to try looking at the pictures process a little closer.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 13, 2020)

Hey All,

Wanted to provide an update on all this. So to the first part is yes the 1k to 12k edge holds up fine and is fairly easily brought back with maybe 2minutes on the 12k again. The edge is nice for general food work. My concern really is understand what is going on and why it is happening, not really that I'm getting a "bad performing edge" per say when I do the 1k-12k set up. I do get a bad performing edge when going 1k-6k for example which is why I was getting confused before on this.

Kayman that sounds good, I actually did pick up a Suehiro Cerax 1k and a Suehiro Rika 5k to practice specifically on a softer set of stones to work on angle control and improving that.

I don't typically strop on the 1k after I finish sharpening on that one, I do some light deburring strokes on the 1k before going to the 12k but that is it. That is a good point regarding the 6k potentially less time on it would be helpful. Thanks for the advice everyone on that. Thanks


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## M1k3 (Jul 14, 2020)

Lots of ideas to work with for you. Hard for us to troubleshoot without experiencing it. Hopefully you can find out the exact reason though.

P.S. Were you ever on a PC forum perhaps?


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## zizirex (Jul 14, 2020)

Which 6K stone did you use? I use to have that kind of problem as well when I use Arashiyama 6K, it works differently when I build the slurry/mud to finish the edge.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 14, 2020)

Thanks again all, I do have a lot of stuff to work through now and review. I'll be on that for a while now and learning more in the process. I wasn't ever on a pc forum as a member at least. I've browsed a few to learn some stuff while building my current rig but never was a member or posted.

I've used the King 6k and Arayashiyama 6k that are causing this effect for me. Thanks


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## GoodMagic (Jul 14, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> You should be able to shave hair off the 500 or 1000 if you have a good apex. If you can't shave off either of these stones you don't have a good edge and moving up to higher grits isn't going to fix that. You should also be using very light pressure on your higher grit stones.



This!


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## Benuser (Jul 15, 2020)

Stay with your coarsest stone until you can't reduce the burr any further and it only flips.


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## lechef (Jul 15, 2020)

Benuser said:


> Stay with your coarsest stone until you can't reduce the burr any further and it only flips.



And then you would move to the finer one?


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## Benuser (Jul 15, 2020)

lechef said:


> And then you would move to the finer one?


Yes, only then you move to the finer one, for full sharpening or only for further deburring, as you like.


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## danemonji (Jul 15, 2020)

your problem might be excessive preasure and rolling of the edge. Keep your muscles relaxed and dont clench you holding hand on the knife. Clenching will produce fatigue and you will start to wobble. Higher grit stones are for polishing/refining the edge, so try to keep you preasure to a minimum( this will also give you better control and help you keep a constant angle ). Also for the higher grit stone try to work out a slury with a nagura before starting to sharpen. This will ensure better polish results on the edge plus better flow/slide of the blade on the stone. Sharpening should be relaxing like meditation. Also don't overdo it. A couple of strokes should be enough if the knife is not dulled.


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## danemonji (Jul 15, 2020)

...


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## captaincaed (Jul 15, 2020)

There’s also a chance that when you go from the 1K to the 6K you are removing all the 1K scratches with a 6K. And then you have a 6K edge. But again maybe there are some deburring issues. When you go from the 1K straight to the 12 K, the 12 K is not course enough to remove the 1K scratches so you’re left with a toothy edge but you’ve polished the bevel slightly but you still have the 1K teeth there is to some degree. Does that make sense?

I also agree that you can shave hair with a good 1K edge. Kasumi Kev thinks that you can cut paper towel with a well deburr ed 3K edge. I’m not quite there myself. I’ve also heard that deburring completely on every stone can help some people progress.


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## Michi (Jul 15, 2020)

I had this problem initially too, where the knife would cut worse after the polishing stone. I was applying way too much pressure on the polishing stone; going very lightly is what fixed it for me.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 17, 2020)

Hey All!

Thanks for all the help on this so far, greatly appreciate it! I've been working on the sharpening more and managed to get a shaving edge off a 1k Cerax so that's an improvement for sure. I definitely think lightening up on my pressure on the polishing stone might help. Admittedly I get good results in terms of edge performance going hard on the Shapton 12k pro (like ham fisted hard) but this might be doing other stuff like what others have mentioned about the 1k teeth still remaining.


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## GeneH (Jul 18, 2020)

Solidsnake, your observations resonate with my difficulty using a 6k stone, and stropping, that I would like to jump in and see if I understand possible fixes. I'd like to hear some feedback from you folks if I missed something.

The issue is 6k after 1k, or a couple dozen stropping sessions (as the blade is used over a period of time) and it loses all the toothiness so I have to go back to 1k. If I strop minimally after 1k I get a really great cutting edge. Note that this is on ALL of my knives, stainless, carbon, kitchen, tiny wood carving, and heavy bushcrafting.

Seems to me my edges should last a lot longer with just stropping unless I have actual blunting or damage, but they just lose their bite.

Technique fail: probably rounding the edge by wobbling too much and using too much pressure.

Stropping compound change? Move to a 4u diamond on hard leather instead 1u boron carbide on balsa or leather?

Here's what I should try:
On the course stone keep flipping until I gently remove the burr and any wire edge as much as possible before moving to the next stone. Trailing strokes. Already doing this.

At 6k, go very very light, very very careful not to raise the angle or round the edge. Possibly use a couple leading strokes only. Light, light pressure stropping.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 20, 2020)

Hi All,

Wanted to provide an update since I got a hair shaving sharp edge off of a coarse stone! So after being a bit frustrated by all this I just said "screw it let's toss it all out and do something new". Using my JNS 300 stone I did about a dozen edge trailing and leading stropping/sweeping strokes with medium to light pressure on one side until felt a solid burr. Then flipped over and did the other side the same. Never bothered to check for a burr again just counted down edge leading and edge trailing sweeping/stropping strokes from 10 on each side.

Did a 10 count on one side then other side then 9 count on one side then the other etc... Until reaching 1. Did a couple strokes at 1 and then rinsed my knife and checked the edge. The bevels looked not as even (some slight wave/inequal bevel heights near the heel especially) compared to the Japanese sharpening style of the JKI videos and others BUT results were way....way better. Could shave fairly easily and smoothly cut paper off the JNS 300. 

Definitely major progress here from completely switching techniques and just counting strokes and stropping style motions. The counting was just to get an idea that I was in the same ballpark regarding evening doing both sides.


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## GeneH (Jul 20, 2020)

Now you have a good edge with a coarse stone where before you did not, correct? I didn't pick up details of how much pressure you are using, so my next suggestion might be useless: have you tried (now that you had this success) flipping the blade over after each pass and with extremely light strokes checked for the burr or seeing a wire edge? Maybe doing this a half-dozen times, checking each time to see that you reached the apex and created the most miniscule burr you can feel until you almost don't get any burr at all?

Is there any improvement doing this initial burr and wire edge removal at the JNS 300 level?


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 20, 2020)

This is an improvement in the sense that the course stone previously was not able to get a hair shaving edge based upon how I was sharpening. I'm not sure what the additional dropping or deburring would do given that I did that with the stropping strokes countdown when I was doing the initial sharpening. Please feel free to correct if I'm wrong but I'm not detecting any burr as it is cleanly cutting through paper with no snags.


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## ModRQC (Jul 20, 2020)

Just don't add anything over a great result, if not a finer stone if you feel so inclined. Many people have many techniques, now that yours work don't get confused in additional steps you do not need.


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## ian (Jul 20, 2020)

SolidSnake03 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Wanted to provide an update since I got a hair shaving sharp edge off of a coarse stone! So after being a bit frustrated by all this I just said "screw it let's toss it all out and do something new". Using my JNS 300 stone I did about a dozen edge trailing and leading stropping/sweeping strokes with medium to light pressure on one side until felt a solid burr. Then flipped over and did the other side the same. Never bothered to check for a burr again just counted down edge leading and edge trailing sweeping/stropping strokes from 10 on each side.
> 
> ...






ModRQC said:


> Just don't add anything over a great result, if not a finer stone if you feel so inclined. Many people have many techniques, now that yours work don't get confused in additional steps you do not need.



But also, don’t feel like you won’t be able to get as good results with other techniques, and get hung up on the particular sequence you’re using. The method you’re describing sounds like a bit of a pain to do every time. If it’s an improvement over your original method, it’s probably because you’re holding a better angle and focusing more on burr reduction (eg some edge leading strokes and light pressure). The 10,9,8,... stuff and the only leading or trailing strokes, instead of scrubbing at the beginning, is probably not the reason you’re succeeding now.


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## Kawa (Jul 20, 2020)

Sometimes you just fail. It looks good, it feels good, but it just isn't sharp.
Take the knife on your coarse stone again, start all over and when initially everything looks and feel the same, suddenly it is sharp.
Don't overthink. The more hours (years) you make, the less this happens and sometimes you still fail and you don't know why...

When the same bad things happen time after time, it's time to look at technic instead of traininghours.


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## ModRQC (Jul 20, 2020)

ian said:


> But also, don’t feel like you won’t be able to get as good results with other techniques, and get hung up on the particular sequence you’re using. The method you’re describing sounds like a bit of a pain to do every time. If it’s an improvement over your original method, it’s probably because you’re holding a better angle and focusing more on burr reduction (eg some edge leading strokes and light pressure). The 10,9,8,... stuff and the only leading or trailing strokes, instead of scrubbing at the beginning, is probably not the reason you’re succeeding now.



Good point in the absolute, but as of now still focus on what worked, and reproducing it. If you fail to reproduce, then as per @ian it's not a question of technique at all. If you can reproduce, while ian is still right, you should first be concerned from a beginner (no offense, I still am too) standpoint with good results and being able to get them consistently enough. Then other techniques, as much as reducing your own steps, can be tried - easier since you'll know you're supposed to get said result. Also, I'm entirely confident that, by yourself, you will slowly "adapt" all those steps with being more and more experienced and akin with your way of sharpening, so all this pretty much happens "naturally".


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 20, 2020)

A variety of good and valid points made, thank you all. Plan is to continue playing around with this method and see how it continues to do. I know I will improve with it overtime however, it quickly resulted in better results than I had previously seen in a long time of using the more typical Japanese sharpening method. I'm sure I can someday/sometime get good results with a variety of techniques if enough practice/time is used however, this very quickly improved the progress when I had been displeased with my coarse stone results for a long time attempting to refine/improve the more usual method/style.

That all said, I'll take all into consideration and continue to play around with stuff. For laughs I've been using the JNS 300 edge for the day and it's actually not bad, kinda loud in carrots and such but it goes through onions and celery like crazy which is great. And anything fairly small and soft just gets blazed through.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jul 20, 2020)

I agree, for gyutos, it's much easier to have an effective edge using a coarser stone. I used to sharpen a Dalman laser aeb-l 210mm gyuto on an aoto in order to have a toothy edge for tomatoes. Some weeks ago, i thinned it a little bit on JNS 300 and finished the edge on the same aoto. Not only the thinning was nice after using it a couple of years, but such a big jump (from JNS 300 to a 2k aoto) helped keep the toothy edge for longer.


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 24, 2020)

Update for everyone and something that may add more info to this. Sharpened up one of my old Sabs on the Shapton Glass 500 and 4000 and didn't get a hair popping edge off either stone despite using the same technique that worked so well on the JNS 300. Cut paper cleanly but sucked for hair, was just scrapping skin and not popping hairs. I then said screw this and decided to go old school and stropped the edge on some cardboard from a flat of beans I had laying around. Did maybe a half dozen strops flipping sides back and forth between each strop. Tested on my arm again and was popping hairs fairly easily. This points to a burr issue maybe? 

Thanks for that suggestion on 300- Aoto. An Aoto is definitely on my to buy list haha.


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## KingShapton (Jul 24, 2020)

Sounds like a burr issue..


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## M1k3 (Jul 24, 2020)

Sabs are softer, so the burr will flip more before falling off.


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## Bert2368 (Jul 24, 2020)

Well.

Read through this and got out my oldest white #2 nakiri and the Shapton 5 K that I had stopped using for similar reasons to OP and his 6K, because it regularly gave me a beautifully polished edge that didn't want to cut tomatoes.

There is nothing wrong with the stone. There certainly was something wrong with the way I had been using it. 

Experimented with edge trailing/leading, from 10 forward/backward cycles to 2, reducing by 2 each "flip", carefully lightening pressure to barely over weight of the knife and making myself consciously relax grip on the handle.

Ended with edge leading only, 1X stroke each sides and lightest touch I could get enough feedback from to know I was hitting the edge, about 10 strokes each side. Stropped it lightly 2x each side on notebook paper after that.

Nakiri now shaves clean, slices paper with very little drag AND effortlessly cuts into skins of tomatoes, peppers and me. Didn't even notice it went right through a callous on my thumb until the tomato juice got in there.

Wonder how durable this edge will be.


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## Bert2368 (Jul 24, 2020)

(double posted)


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## SolidSnake03 (Jul 24, 2020)

Ah makes sense on burr flipping more. So is the stropping taking some small remaining burr off then? Banged on the edge a good bit today and it's held up nicely so far.

Hi Bert, appreciate the feedback on that. Sounds like what I did on the JNS 300 to get a shaving edge. Maybe just more time and slower on the higher grit following a good base edge on say the 300 or a medium grit.


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## Bert2368 (Jul 24, 2020)

About stropping? Check out "Science of Sharp" for explanation of mechanics of this and good microphotographs of what it does to an edge.









What does stropping do?


Stropping a blade on a clean (without abrasive) substrate achieves FOUR results: 1) REALIGNING THE EDGE Although a straight razor is made of hardened steel, the edge is flexible and malleable. Belo…




scienceofsharp.com


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## Kawa (Jul 25, 2020)

Do I understand right from that link that stropping on (loaded) leather will always micro-convex the edge? 
Is that in a way that you can truly see it with a loupe, or is it only on microscopic level?

The link aims for straight razors. We mostly discuss kitchen knives. I imagine our edges are way coarse than the pictures shown in the link, so does my question even apply to the edge of (relatively coarse and therfore scratchy) kitchen knives? I mean, is our very apex even smooth enough to be able to 'microconvex' with (loaded) leather? Relatively, we end up with a big buzzsaw...

My question is also asked in the link (at the very bottom, the forelast question), but not answered.

I might gotten it al wrong. 9 am after a nightshift, so its hard to keep concentrated


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## ian (Jul 25, 2020)

Kawa said:


> Is that in a way that you can truly see it with a loupe, or is it only on microscopic level?



doubt you can see it with a loupe, unless you really go to town with the stropping.

I don’t really know. there’s probably some microconvexing going on, and you’re also removing teeth when you strop. Strop too much and you’ll end up with a no-tooth edge that’s good for razors but not so good for the kitchen. Most people around here will tell you to strop only a couple times after stone work, just to remove any residual burr.


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## kayman67 (Jul 25, 2020)

Rounding the edge while stropping seems to be very common.


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## Kawa (Jul 25, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Rounding the edge while stropping seems to be very common.



Yes, but only when stropping wrong I thought  When your angle is too high.

I'm asking this because sometimes I have the impression that after stropping (loaded leather with red rouge) I sliiiiightly rounded off my edge. Sometimes not.
Both ways the knife is sharper then after the last stone (more refined feeling). So I couldn't figur out when I was stropping wrong: the times I see a sliiiightly less perfect straight edge after stropping, or when I see no difference in the edge at all. Is the first good or too high angle, or is the latter good or too low angle?

I also notice that stropping after a low or medium gritt stone doenst seem to do as much as stropping after a high gritt finish.
I guessed this has to do with polishing too deep scratches is just giving the 'mountain tops' a slight buff, but the leather (even loaded with (very soft) red rouge) is not rough enough to hit 100% surface of the edge.. Therefor you need a higher finish?

Or does this tell me something about my actual burr removal at lower gritts, which at high gritt finish seems to be neglectable?


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## Bert2368 (Jul 25, 2020)

I too found that minimal stropping of kitchen knives is usually best. Yes, you can over do it, plus, I think the more swipes you take, the more likely you are to accidentally vary the angle too high and round off an edge.

There is a good bit more information in the comments sections of the "science of sharp" articles.

One of the bits of information I found most useful is that the ammount of "give" a strop has is an important characteristic, possibly more important than what the surface is made out of, if it's anything appropriate to strop on at all.

I ended up "tuning" sheets of copier paper with 1, 2 or 3 layers of paper towel underneath on a glass plate for stropping, with and without compounds, tried a few types of thin, fairly stiff foam I had on hand under paper, then tried some of the other recommended stropping surfaces, denim on glass or Corian counter top scraps has worked particularly well on stropping kitchen knives for me.

I have a box of "horse butt" leather I meant to make into strops, but for a few cents worth of paper or scraps of old bluejeans, I can get some pretty good results... I keep putting off the leather work.

In other news, I tried the technique I experimented with on the nakiri with 5 other knives. It worked quickly and equally well on aogami. Worked with some extra care on S35VN. Took a bit more time and some frustration with D2 and VG-10, but I got there, eventually.

Liking Carbon more and more, where I can keep it clean, anyway.


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## kayman67 (Jul 25, 2020)

Maybe going directly to balsa and diamond removes a lot of potential problems and puts an emphasis on technique alone.


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