# Takefu knife village (Masakage, Kurosaki, Anryu, ...) and other knives (Terayasu Fujiwara, Yamawaku)



## mark76 (Nov 19, 2014)

There were recently some discussions here regarding knives made by various makers from Ezichen. Yesterday I visited JapanseMessen, one of the largest J-knife webshops in Europe (and only a couple of kilometers from my house :biggrin: ). I was able to see and try quite of few of these knives. And I got more insight in knife making there.

A number of knife makers and sharpeners have united themselves in a group called Takefu knife village. They work together in various constellations and under various brand names, although there are common threads. Here they are (from a brochure I got):









The knife that was on top of my list was a Masakage Yuki 170 mm ko bunka. It has a very nice nashiji (pear skin or snow) finish. However, I also got some reports here that it had pretty big shoulders and that it was not a great cutter. 

When I tried the knife, it indeed was not the thinnest behind the edge and I could imagine that the shoulders could cause it to wedge. Fortunately I could also try a Masakage Koishi, made of stainless cladded AS steel. Apparently this is Makage's top line and forged by Hiroshi Kato himself. And this one had a very nice geometry/grind. Reasonably thick above the heel (about 3.4 mm), but thin behind the edge. And with a very nice tapering...





However, there were also a couple of Kurosaki knives... And these knives did not only have a beautiful kurouichi finish, but also a very similar grind to the Masakage Koishis. They were also made of stainless cladded AS. The main differences were that they tapered slightly less towards the tip and seemed even thinner above the edge. So thin that I thought they were ground hollow, but this was apparently an optical illusion. I think this knife will cut very well, but it is not for the anxious ones.





I had a hard time choosing. I eventually opted for the Masakage, mainly because of the very nice tapering.

The shop also carries Anry knives, another knife maker from Echizen. Well... not for me. The one I saw (a nakiri) had a nice tapering towards the tip, but was pretty thick above the edge. Maybe it was just this knife, but I like the Masakage Koishis and the Kurosaki knives a lot better.

Anton recommended me on this forum a Yamawaku knife. I'd never heard of it, but this shop carried the brand. And when I saw a knife... I was sold. And it wasn't even a gyuto, but a nakiri. I've never seen a Kato knife in real life, but this Yamawaku has the same grind the Katos have on pictures: pretty thick at the spine and then going down towards the edge in nearly a straight line. In addition it's made of V2 steel (uncladded or cladded with iron) and it has a very nice kurouchi. Unfortunately they did not have a 210 mm gyuto anymore, but I'm on the list for the next batch to arrive  . The fact that the knife costs less than EUR 100 wasn't detrimental to this decision, but if it'd cost twice as much, I'd probably still have ordered it.





I've asked a couple of questions on Terayasu Fujiwara on this forum, and today I can answer them  . The shop carries all three lines of Fujiwara: nashiji, maboroshi and denka. I think all three lines are great cutters: they all three have similar grinds, are very thin behind the edge and have a nice tapering towards the tip. The nashiji line is the cheapest. It must be the definition of rustic. The blades do not only have a very nice (yes, nashiji) finish, but the spine and choil are sometimes sharp. Plain sharp. Normally I don't care for a rounded edge or choil, but I'd probably do that on this line. So when someone advised me the maboroshi line because of the better blade finish, I now understand why. The maboroshi knives still have a nice look on the blade (also hammered), but are finished better. I found the finger choil, of which I did not know whether I'd like it, very comfortable, by the way. Is the maboroshi line worth the extra money over the nashiji line? I think it's personal, but for me it is. (My wallet was nearly empty already, however  . This one's for Christmas...)

The denka knives have a similar finish as the maboroshi line. Only they have an added kurouchi. And the blades are made of AS steel, whereas the other blades are made of shirogami. However, the denka knives cost more than twice as much as the maboroshi ones. Are they worth it? Well... not to me probably.

So then it was time to go home. I also brought this cute little (135 mm) santoku with me: a Tadafusa KNT-135 made of cladded shirogami.





I've seen enough new J-knives for at least a week  .


----------



## CoqaVin (Nov 19, 2014)

good scores and info!


----------



## stereo.pete (Nov 19, 2014)

CoqaVin said:


> good scores and info!



Indeed!


----------



## snipes (Nov 19, 2014)

Great write up. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## MrOli (Nov 19, 2014)

Superb info and it mirrors my experience with Masakage, Kurosaki and Fujiwara - and yes the Maboroshi is worth the price tag when bought direct from the maker, I find them exceptionally beautiful and efficient.

Next time check the Murata, I can't put their Western Nakiri down, that damn thing literally resonates and sings!


----------



## apathetic (Nov 20, 2014)

Thanks for putting this up, good info


----------



## Matus (Nov 20, 2014)

Thank you for a write up - sounds like you really enjoyed it 

Did you have a look at the SLD Tadafusa knives? They look quite interesting.


----------



## mark76 (Nov 21, 2014)

No, I didn't. They have such an awesome amount of knives you really have to focus beforehand on what you want to see. (Even just the number of Tadafusas is very large.)

But I looked them up at their site and I must say the tsuchime ones (particularly the S43) look very nice. It's for the next time I go there  .


----------



## drawman623 (Nov 21, 2014)

The Fujiwara information is helpful to me, thank you. I knew of the hagane distinction and kurouchi finish that set the Denka apart from Maboroshi but at double the cost, I was wondering what other revelation I had missed. You're right to observe there is little information out there. Comments appreciated


----------



## mark76 (Nov 21, 2014)

Drawman, as far I was able to observe, the main difference between the Maboroshi and the Denka line is that the Maboroshi is made of laminated shirogami and the Denka is made of laminated aogami supersteel. The finish of both blades is different (notably the kurouchi on the Denka's), but I wouldn't say it is better on the Denka's. Both types of blades seem to have the same profile and the same grind. And they can be had with the same handles.


----------



## drawman623 (Nov 21, 2014)

Thanks Mark. What was your take on the western style handle fit of the Maboroshi knives? I was surprised to find a price increase on the Fujiwara web site to go from western handle to Japanese style ebony/buffalo. Personally I prefer the Wa style, but many high end knives are sought after with western handles. I'm not so advanced in my cutting style that I could not adapt to either easily. If the western handles are well fitted then that will probably be the direction I take.


----------



## mark76 (Nov 21, 2014)

I was not too impressed with the Western handles. They are reasonably well fitted, but they didn't feel too well in my hand: they're pretty small in circumference and they look cheap. Now I must say that I have pretty large hands and have many of my knives rehandled, so that's quite personal.

If you're ok with a standard small Western handle, then you're good to go, I think. Personally I'd go with the cheapest wa handle and then have it rehandled.

Pretty weird, though. Normally these Japanese knife makers charge much more for Western handles.


----------



## MrOli (Nov 22, 2014)

My 3 Maboroshi no Meito are decently finished. They all have simple Western handles but there are no gaps or flaws while not being as nicely finished as the same handles on Muratas. 

I can't wait to receive my custom ordered mini Nakiri with Wa Ebony handle, it should absolutely rock on small ingredients.


----------



## mark76 (Nov 22, 2014)

Yeah, I must add that I'm really not into Western handles: all of my knives have wa handles (with the exception of a beautifully rehandled Hiromoto). So I'm definitely prejudged.



> I can't wait to receive my custom ordered mini Nakiri with Wa Ebony handle, it should absolutely rock on small ingredients.



Wow, cool! I haven't got a Teruyasu (yet  ). I could just feel and admire them at this shop. Do they do custom knives as well?


----------



## XooMG (Nov 22, 2014)

mark76 said:


> Wow, cool! I haven't got a Teruyasu (yet  ). I could just feel and admire them at this shop. Do they do custom knives as well?


I asked him about a custom shape and he said he was cool with it, but I was a bit underwhelmed with my Nashiji nakiri so I never followed up on it.


----------



## MrOli (Nov 22, 2014)

I expect I will have to finish the spine and choil myself but I do not mind at all. I already do this on Kuro Uchis so the raw black finish contrasts with smooth and shiny sides. Sorry to hear you were a bit disappointed with your Nakiri btw.


----------



## XooMG (Nov 22, 2014)

MrOli said:


> I expect I will have to finish the spine and choil myself but I do not mind at all. I already do this on Kuro Uchis so the raw black finish contrasts with smooth and shiny sides. Sorry to hear you were a bit disappointed with your Nakiri btw.


Choil and spine don't bother me...serious grind inconsistency and an edge that only made partial board contact due to serious frowning bothered me. I'm currently having the bevel reground, but the business of doing it was taking me so long @ 300 grit that I gave up on it and sent it to a competent maker with a grinder. for salvage.


----------



## MrOli (Nov 22, 2014)

That sounds absolutely awful!


----------



## mark76 (Nov 22, 2014)

Yes, really sorry to hear about that!


----------



## Lefty (Nov 22, 2014)

XooMG said:


> Choil and spine don't bother me...serious grind inconsistency and an edge that only made partial board contact due to serious frowning bothered me. I'm currently having the bevel reground, but the business of doing it was taking me so long @ 300 grit that I gave up on it and sent it to a competent maker with a grinder. for salvage.



I've read this a few times, regarding these knives, and from what I know, the dealers QC these to hell to make sure they are great knives (which they apparently can be). If Jon still carried them, I'd trust one coming from him, but straight from the maker can be risky, from what I've read.

On a side note, how awesome would it be to get one, and have Carter, Harner, or Rader fix the grind?!?


----------



## XooMG (Nov 22, 2014)

Lefty said:


> I've read this a few times, regarding these knives, and from what I know, the dealers QC these to hell to make sure they are great knives (which they apparently can be). If Jon still carried them, I'd trust one coming from him, but straight from the maker can be risky, from what I've read.
> 
> On a side note, how awesome would it be to get one, and have Carter, Harner, or Rader fix the grind?!?


It may well be such. I have amassed several Zakuri knives and have encountered a pretty big range of quality from excellent to substandard. I think that's just the way of things with these more affordable pieces.

On the fixer...it's none of those makers, but if the knife can be worked out, I think the guy I'm working with will be on a comparable level. Honestly though...I'm not sure the knife is really really worth it...we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## MrOli (Nov 23, 2014)

The reason I went for the Maboroshis for the core of my knife collection is the extra time spent on the blades, all mine are perfect and straight from the maker. I ordered the mini Nakiri because the 130 Nashiji was already the smallest in his catalogue but as I said I am expecting to have to polish a few angles. 

Hopefully the very short blade will be ok. 

I also have an eye on the 150 Mablroshi Gyuto to fill the gap between my 120 petty and 210 gyuto in the same collection...any excuse to get another knife really! :biggrin:


----------



## mark76 (Nov 23, 2014)

MrOli said:


> I also have an eye on the 150 Mablroshi Gyuto to fill the gap between my 120 petty and 210 gyuto in the same collection...any excuse to get another knife really! :biggrin:



In that case you also still need a 180 mm gyuto


----------



## XooMG (Dec 3, 2014)

MrOli said:


> The reason I went for the Maboroshis for the core of my knife collection is the extra time spent on the blades, all mine are perfect and straight from the maker. I ordered the mini Nakiri because the 130 Nashiji was already the smallest in his catalogue but as I said I am expecting to have to polish a few angles.
> 
> Hopefully the very short blade will be ok.
> 
> I also have an eye on the 150 Mablroshi Gyuto to fill the gap between my 120 petty and 210 gyuto in the same collection...any excuse to get another knife really! :biggrin:


I decided to give Teruyasu Fujiwara another chance and ordered a Maboroshi no Meito 195mm gyuto. Hopefully it'll turn out better than the nakiri did.


----------



## mark76 (Dec 4, 2014)

Please let us know when you get it!


----------



## MrOli (Dec 4, 2014)

My next knife will definitely be a Kurosaki. This youngster has really high standards.


----------



## mark76 (Dec 4, 2014)

My next knife might be a Kurosaki as well... As I wrote, it should cut much the same as a Masakage Koishi (which cuts GREAT), but it looks quite different.


----------



## MrOli (Dec 4, 2014)

mark76 said:


> My next knife might be a Kurosaki as well... As I wrote, it should cut much the same as a Masakage Koishi (which cuts GREAT), but it looks quite different.



I love my Koishi Honesuki, wonderful fit and finish and a real shame I don't use it more often.


----------



## exalis (Dec 9, 2014)

Hi everyone,

Actually i'm really torn between 3 models and i hope i could get your help on this

This is between the 

#Kurosaki AS Santoku 
#Fujiwara san Nashiji Santoku 
#Masakage Koishi Santoku


I know the steel are different between these knives but the steel istelf is just one part of the puzzle.
The skills and experience of the tool maker is the thing to search imo.

So it would be nice if could give me your thoughts.

I work for myself and in a professional kitchen 3 time a week so i would like a blade which i can bring with me at work without the fear of her solidity.
That i can use daily. Not just an art work. 
I need to trust my tool but i prefer a good looking knive for sure. I love the object and I am very careful about my knives.
I love tall and thin blade.

I love the profile of the Kurosaki or the Koishi but the blade treatment of the Nashiji speaks to me and seems to be legendary.


Thank you very much 

Best regards,

Alexis


----------



## CoqaVin (Dec 9, 2014)

To me the Kurosaki AS stands out the most, if I had the money I would get one (a Gyuto) or (petty, honesuki)


----------



## exalis (Dec 9, 2014)

Thanks CoqaVin,

Could you tell me how the Kurosaki AS stands out the most in your opinion?


----------



## CoqaVin (Dec 9, 2014)

I really like the looks of the Kurosaki AS, and the AS steel will give you GREAT Edge retention, and for the price the grinds look really good, and also it is cheaper than the Koishi, if you want a much more proven knife then the Koishi is for you, but Yu Kurosaki makes the Shimo line for Masakage, and the knife is steal IMO


----------



## exalis (Dec 9, 2014)

Ok thanks CoqaVin


----------



## MrOli (Dec 9, 2014)

Fujiwara Nashiji...I would pass, the Maboroshi is significantly better (I have both). Both the Kurosaki AS and the Koishi are superb choices (I have the Koishi Honesuki) but why not go for something different and awesome like a 170mm Bunka? Both lines offer one and tip work is a joy with these. Mind you I also enjoy Santokus very much so there is nothing in it apart from my love for left field knives.

Ahem.. Masakage, Yoshikane, Shibata and Fujiwara


----------



## mark76 (Dec 10, 2014)

Due to this thread I got a PM from someone asking for a recommendation. I thought I might as well answer it in public, so others can benefit and reply. Multiple opinions are often more useful than one.



> Actually i'm really torn between 3 models and i would hope to get your help
> 
> This is between the
> 
> ...



I handled all three of these knives a couple of weeks ago (210 mm gyutos). And I must say I was very pleasantly surprised. You cannot go wrong with any of these knives.

What makes them similar is that all three are relatively thick at the spine (say, 3-4 mm at the heel, I didn't measure them) which tapers down nicely towards the tip. They all three have a very nice ground and are thin above the edge. They are also knives that all fall into the "rustic" category, allthough their outward appearance differs somewhat.

Both the Kurosaki and the Masakage Koishi are made of aogami super steel, whereas the Fujiwara is made of white #1 steel. Personally I prefer aogami supersteel a bit above white steel. Not because aogami supersteel has better edge holding - I like sharpening - but the AS's I know are a bit less reactive. That said, these properties are highly dependent on the heat treating. And all three knives have their carbon steel cladded, so it's not a big deal. Kurosaki and Masakage work together, so this might somewhat explain why these baldes are so similar.

The only thing you should be aware of is that the finish of the blade of the Fujuwara Nashiji is rather rough: you probably want to use some sandpaper to round the spine and the choil. However, if you're comfortable with this, the blade is fine and it's a matter of personal taste whether you like the nashiji finish. The Fujiwara I tried had a Western handle, but they can be had with a wa handle too. The finger rest on the Fujiwara may look a bit unusual and I first I thought I wouldn't like it. However, when I tried the knife I found this is actually very comfortable and I wondered why not more knife makers do it.

So what to recommend you... All three are great knives. Pick one that suits your taste and budget. (The Kurosaki is financially the best deal.) Personally I got the Masakage Koishi, because I liked the tapering towards the tip slightly better than that of the Kurosaki. At that point I didn't consider the Fujiwara yet, but probably next year... Then it will probably be either the Nahiji or the Maboroshi, depending on how I feel on doing some work on the blade. And maybe a Kurosaki bunka .

Please let us know which knife you picked and how you like it!


----------



## mark76 (Dec 10, 2014)

Just to add. You wrote you are looking for a thin blade. I would not categorize any of these knives as thin. Thin above the edge, yes (which is the important part), but not thin at the spine.

If you're looking for a blade that is thin overall, you want to look at an entirely different category of knives. Konosuke, Suisin Inox Honyaki, and Ashi Ginga are names in that category. And, slightly different, Takamura R2.


----------



## exalis (Dec 10, 2014)

Thanks you very much Marki and MrOli!
These infos you gave me are precious.
You have some really beautiful knives MrOli. I love the two big bunka 

For the Nashiji i heard so much about the blade treatment as it is legendary.
Theoretically Aogami Super is a better steel than Shirogami #1 but a lot of people i read seems to believe that the heat treatment of teruyasu fujiwara is awesome..
Could you notice this difference with your other knives MrOli?
Beside i like is the dimension of the knife. The height etc.. i prefer to work with a tall blade.
And the Nashiji range is quite affordable.

As for the downside i read oftenly what you said Mark about the finish of the blade and i think i'm gonna prefer the Maboroshi line now.
The thing is i can't fin a Santoku from Maboroshi line with wa handle.
Could i ask you MrOli where did you get your Maboroshi Nakiri with wa handle?
An other downside for me is the price of the Maboroshi line which is a little bit over my budget..

As for the bunka i always was intrigued by this shape.
Very similar to a Santoku but more refined with their very pointed thin tips.
It's an option i will consider.
There is one thing that hold me back from the Bunka and Koishi or Kurosaki in the same time. It's the dimension of the blade.
Particulary the height..
Maybe it's a sort of an obsession.
I should perhaps get over it.
I want two things at the same time..Refined prep work and tall blade. Is this possible?

The koishi was during my research the first Knife i immediately felt in love with.
For my taste it's just an epic beauty. 
I'm please to read all the good you say about this knife.
I love the Bunka of the koishi line too. Even if it's thick at the spine (4mm) 
The Kurosaki and The Nashiji are around 3,2mm.
I would also prefer a taller knife 

For the blade height:
NASHIJI 51.8 mm
KUROSAKI 46.5 mm
KOISHI 46 mm


I love the Kurosaki too. Thinner at the spine compared to the Koishi and less expensive.
Like the Koishi it's not the taller one.
Mark what is the difference of tapering between the Koishi and the Kurosaki?


Mark when i said i want thin blade it was first of all above the edge and eventually not to thick to the spine.
3mm is fine.

As for the price it's a little bit tricky.
I live in Belgium and the price for these knives in EU are more expensive than japan or usa.
The pb with shop in US is the shipping cost that is high and there is no doubt i would get some custom fee.

After several research on different shop on the web it appears that all the 3 knives finally end with the same price.

For the Maboroshi i didn't start my research for the best price yet.

I have one more question for you.
What do you think of the Takeda knives?

I really don't know what to do...

A little picture of the koishi beside the Nashiji.
Not much difference.





Thanks to all of you for taking the time to help me.
Much appreciated.


----------



## MrOli (Dec 15, 2014)

If you go on the Fujiwara website (good prices btw) you will see there are now handle options. Like the blade my ebony handle needed a bit of sanding. With Masakage or Kurosaki the finish will be almost flawless, they build beautiful knives.

I would put the Maboroshi a touch above in terms of blade, it is wonderful to use.

I love Bunkas, the shape is stunning and practical but I have to say the Hakata is even more versatile with a workhorse feel. The Takedas have their admirers, I only have one Kuro Uchi in the Murata Western Nakiri and would not look at any other maker for that type of finish. It is a truly amazing knife.


----------



## exalis (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks for the reply MrOil.

Yes a Maboroshi with the finish of a Koishi would have been wondefull 

I didn't know the existence of the Hakata shape, interesting knife.

As for the Fujiwara website , the price are really good but i read several time some disappointment when order directly from the maker..
The only difference between Nashiji and Maboroshi is the finish right?

The thing which gonna be decisive in my final choice is the thikness of the blade.
I mean i really want the thinnest blade behind the edge. I's the very important to me.
I think it's the Fujiwara is 1 than Kurosaki and finally Koishi.
But i'm not sure.

I'm still in research so if you don't mind t would be great to have your thought about these new knives i notice.

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=90559

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=90902

http://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=92948&photo=1&size=b

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kasumi-180mm-wa-santoku/

http://www.**************.com/mu16sa.html

http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de/Wak...stfrei.html?XTCsid=hkp76fon6j9balc4nba4h4vp12

http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de/Koc...u-17cm.html?XTCsid=hkp76fon6j9balc4nba4h4vp12

http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de/Hin...edet-mit-Signaturstempel--nicht-rostfrei.html

http://gx2.japan-messer-shop.de/Hin...edet-mit-Signaturstempel--nicht-rostfrei.html

Thank you very much and sorry for all that questions..


----------



## exalis (Dec 16, 2014)

Oups i forgot to mention these 2 Moritaka

http://www.paulsfinest.com/Moritaka-Deluxe-Santoku-185mm-7.3-Aogami-Blue-2-Carbon-Steel.html

http://www.paulsfinest.com/Moritaka-Supreme-Santoku-185mm-7.3-Aogami-Blue-Super-Carbon-Steel.html


----------



## MrOli (Dec 16, 2014)

I have read a few Moritakas have had issues with the grind so take plenty of advice before buying. I got my Fujiwaras directly and I am very happy because I already knew I would have to correct a couple of things. If you are not comfortable doing so you may be better off going to Kurosaki, Masakage or Asai. Regarding the blades you listed the Murata seems to be the thinnest and I can testify of their incredible value. Please be aware they will take a patina as they are not stainless.


----------



## exalis (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks again MrOil.


----------



## exalis (Dec 28, 2014)

Just a quick message to thank you all for your help!
Finally i went with the Murata Buho Santoku.

Merry christmas to all of you!

Cheers


----------



## Gorrion (Dec 28, 2014)

Hi. Really interested you mention Murata. Is that Takeo Murata? I have a Petty of his with a western handle which I love. Beautiful balance. Happy New year.


----------



## exalis (Dec 28, 2014)

Yes it's Takeo Murata.
I took the wa handle.
Happy new year


----------

