# What stone is missing?



## Trouthead (Feb 18, 2019)

Been sharpening for about 8 years and feel comfortable with the whole process, but just like golfers who feel a new club will improve his game, I wonder what stone would improve my sharpening game. I presently have a set of Norton waterstones in grits 220, 1000, 4000, 8000, and a Norton flattening stone. Additionally I have a Shapton 2000 grit green stone and a Shapton glass stone in grit 16000. Also have an older Hand America stopping set of leather and various diamond sprays, along with hard felt items. An odd set perhaps, and I wonder if I should have something else or different. I sharpen white #2 , Tojiro PS, Carpenter XHP, and D2 (KMD) and the occaisional 154CM and 52100. Any advice or ideas, or should I stand pat.


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## psfred (Feb 18, 2019)

If they work, it's hard to suggest any miracle stones, but I prefer the Bester/Beston stones. Not a huge difference probably, but I bought my Bester 120o specifically to sharpen A2 plane blades (that I never have used, incidentally) and now use it for knives and straight razors. I believe it's harder and finer than the Norton 1000.

You will also get suggestions for the Naniwa and Shapton stones as most people prefer them to Nortons, especially in finer grits.

I have a large set of stones, and for knives I pretty much use only my Bester 1200 and a synthetic blue aoto (from Imanishi) and either a King 6000 or my Arashiyama 6000. 

Stones are another rabbit hole, chasing the perfect one is like chasing a perfect chef's knife......

I suspect you will find sandpaper on a marble tile from one of the big box stores a large improvement over the Norton flattening stone -- always flat, always cut well. That flattening stone needs to be flattened too, it's just a coarse aluminum oxide "brick" and it wears just like any other stone.....


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## Trouthead (Feb 19, 2019)

I am not happy with the Norton flattening stone and will probably spring for a Atoma. Today I used the Norton 1000 followed by the Shapton 2000. Seeded to work pretty well for a quick and dirty sharpening job, but even with the flattener, my stones did not seem flat. The more I think about purchase date of the Norton stones, it must have been more than 10 years ago.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Feb 19, 2019)

What are you looking to improve? Anything specific?


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## Trouthead (Feb 20, 2019)

Well I ordered a Atoma. Never seemed like I was getting much abrasion out of the long side edges of the stone. I don't do razors so it was silly to buy the Shapton 16000. And I don't particularily like the feel of the 4000 and 8000 Norton. Since the whole kit is about 10 years old I thought someone would have some real strongly held opinions. Maybe I should save my money and buy another knife.


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## daveb (Feb 20, 2019)

I've never been a fan of the Norton stones. I am liking the Shapton Pro series a lot for s&g, no frills, get er done, type work. If you like your Shapton 2K then you may consider adding a 1K and a 320 to the lineup.

If your more inclined to try soakers,. the Bestor 1200 / Rika 5K is a combination that works well together and is at the less expensive end of the spectrum. Or go right to the best with Gesshin 2K and 4K. (6K).

Or buy another knife


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## Cyrilix (Feb 20, 2019)

daveb said:


> I've never been a fan of the Norton stones. I am liking the Shapton Pro series a lot for s&g, no frills, get er done, type work. If you like your Shapton 2K then you may consider adding a 1K and a 320 to the lineup.
> 
> If your more inclined to try soakers,. the Bestor 1200 / Rika 5K is a combination that works well together and is at the less expensive end of the spectrum. Or go right to the best with Gesshin 2K and 4K. (6K).
> 
> Or buy another knife



Did you use Gesshin 6000 or 6000S?


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## SilverSwarfer (Feb 22, 2019)

Trouthead said:


> Been sharpening for about 8 years and feel comfortable with the whole process, but just like golfers who feel a new club will improve his game, I wonder what stone would improve my sharpening game. I presently have a set of Norton waterstones in grits 220, 1000, 4000, 8000, and a Norton flattening stone. Additionally I have a Shapton 2000 grit green stone and a Shapton glass stone in grit 16000. Also have an older Hand America stopping set of leather and various diamond sprays, along with hard felt items. An odd set perhaps, and I wonder if I should have something else or different. I sharpen white #2 , Tojiro PS, Carpenter XHP, and D2 (KMD) and the occaisional 154CM and 52100. Any advice or ideas, or should I stand pat.



Have you jumped down the rabbit hole and looked into stropping?

I find you can refine and control your edge with precision on a strop. You remove less material and working results come quickly.


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## lemeneid (Feb 22, 2019)

Ever considered natural stones??? If you're looking to "up your game" good natural stones would expose your crappy sharpening skills while rewarding your good technique with the most amazing edges possible.

BTW, I'm a natural stone newbie too but from what I've used so far, I managed to get some really nice sharp knives with really amazingly toothy edges.


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## Ivan Hersh (Feb 22, 2019)

Since i have had some really hard stainless steel blades to sharpen, and my King 1000 just is to slow, i ordered a Naniwa #400 Grit and have so far found it really gets after these tough steels, not crazy that Naniwa glues their stone to their plastic holder but it's not a deal killer, the stone is really a quality stone and they include a Nagura cleaning and mudding stone the price is $57US on Amazon.

.


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## SilverSwarfer (Feb 22, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Ever considered natural stones??? If you're looking to "up your game" good natural stones would expose your crappy sharpening skills while rewarding your good technique with the most amazing edges possible.
> 
> BTW, I'm a natural stone newbie too but from what I've used so far, I managed to get some really nice sharp knives with really amazingly toothy edges.


Only ever had 1 natural stone, a #3000 long since lost to the disappointing underbelly of restaurant hacks who have no respect or understanding of specialized, delicate equipment.

I am interested to further understand: what specific properties of a natural stone enhance the mentioned "crappy sharpening skills" or "good technique" further or more pronounced than other media? Differences I noticed in my limited experience were 1) different feel and feedback, 2) "dynamic grit" - meaning that the stone cut and polished like a higher grit stone during extended sessions (more time = finer grit action). 

Can the natural stone produce results that a grit progression or other technique cannot replicate?


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## Ivan Hersh (Feb 22, 2019)

For over 40+ years i sharpened all my knives with this small combo medium/coarse Smith Arkansas stone set, as you can see it was well worn in it's center, i spent two hour's sanding it flat.

I also had bought a new Dan's Soft Arkansas stone, it's a larger stone and will make sharping larger knives simpler.


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## SilverSwarfer (Feb 22, 2019)

Ivan Hersh said:


> For over 40+ years i sharpened all my knives with this small combo medium/coarse Smith Arkansas stone set, as you can see it was well worn in it's center, i spent two hour's sanding it flat.
> 
> I also had bought a new Dan's Soft Arkansas stone, it's a larger stone and will make sharping larger knives simpler.


Very nice. Thank you Ivan! I know the Arkansas stone is legendary, and there is good reason why. I am inexperienced and poorly informed on the mechanics behind it. But my curiosity is compelling and I will most likely end up with a few of my own to test. Nothing is more convincing than experience.

The natural stone I used was Japanese, and I don't know if the 2 have much in common.


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## Ivan Hersh (Feb 23, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> Very nice. Thank you Ivan! I know the Arkansas stone is legendary, and there is good reason why. I am inexperienced and poorly informed on the mechanics behind it. But my curiosity is compelling and I will most likely end up with a few of my own to test. Nothing is more convincing than experience.
> 
> The natural stone I used was Japanese, and I don't know if the 2 have much in common.


If you want to try the water stone system i advise you to try this one found at Amazon costing $25.85US with free shipping, i am using one and it works pretty well.
There are two found on their site this one does not include the small Nagura mudding stone, the other one costs $49.99 with the Nagura stone i would just buy the one without the Nagura stone, you can always buy a Nagura stone later.

KING KW65 1000/6000 Grit Combination Whetstone with Plastic Base.


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## Michi (Feb 23, 2019)

There is also the KDS, which looks the same, but is larger:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01BB1ZDVW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I believe that the KDS is more suitable for harder steels (up to HRC 62) and doesn't dish quite as quickly as the KW65. The larger size makes it a bit easier to sharpen on it, too.


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## Ivan Hersh (Feb 23, 2019)

Michi said:


> There is also the KDS, which looks the same, but is larger:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01BB1ZDVW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> I believe that the KDS is more suitable for harder steels (up to HRC 62) and doesn't dish quite as quickly as the KW65. The larger size makes it a bit easier to sharpen on it, too.


I was just thinking if he just wanted to try something spending just $25.85 would be better then $45 unless the KDS can be ordered without the Nagura stone for around $26 dollars i tried the stone only but it did not get me a lower cost.


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## SilverSwarfer (Feb 23, 2019)

Ivan Hersh said:


> If you want to try the water stone system i advise you to try this one found at Amazon costing $25.85US with free shipping, i am using one and it works pretty well.
> There are two found on their site this one does not include the small Nagura mudding stone, the other one costs $49.99 with the Nagura stone i would just buy the one without the Nagura stone, you can always buy a Nagura stone later.
> 
> KING KW65 1000/6000 Grit Combination Whetstone with Plastic Base.


I know the King stones very intimately, the King 1000 was my first experience water stone in 1999. 

It’s a very smart recommendation Ivan, no doubt. My Inquiry was re: natural stones. My experience with natural stones is very limited. I browsed some Japanese naturals yesterday and found them ranging from $30-2,500 USD. Many are $200+, which indicates unique properties. 

My curiosity is relative to what these natural stones do that any series of other stones can’t.


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## SilverSwarfer (Feb 23, 2019)

Ivan Hersh said:


> I was just thinking if he just wanted to try something spending just $25.85 would be better then $45 unless the KDS can be ordered without the Nagura stone for around $26 dollars i tried the stone only but it did not get me a lower cost.


I do appreciate your recommendation! It’s good advice.


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## Ivan Hersh (Feb 23, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> I know the King stones very intimately, the King 1000 was my first experience water stone in 1999.
> 
> It’s a very smart recommendation Ivan, no doubt. My Inquiry was re: natural stones. My experience with natural stones is very limited. I browsed some Japanese naturals yesterday and found them ranging from $30-2,500 USD. Many are $200+, which indicates unique properties.
> 
> My curiosity is relative to what these natural stones do that any series of other stones can’t.


Well i am just trying to find out the same thing, had used the natural stones for many years, just started wanting to try the Japanese water stones, i really like just using water other then oil with the natural stones.
I also bought this Fallknive Diamond and Med combo stone, as it requires no oil or water, i bought it for sharping a small Cold Steel War Hawk Axe and it does a really good job with just the Med. stone . It's a little costly at around $100 but i do like it.


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## Trouthead (Feb 23, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> Have you jumped down the rabbit hole and looked into stropping?
> 
> I find you can refine and control your edge with precision on a strop. You remove less material and working results come quickly.


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## Trouthead (Feb 23, 2019)

I have a pretty complete set of stropping stuff from diamond to leather to felt. Even some super fine papers. Haven't used much other than the diamond spray on leather.


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## SilverSwarfer (Feb 23, 2019)

Ivan Hersh said:


> Well i am just trying to find out the same thing, had used the natural stones for many years, just started wanting to try the Japanese water stones, i really like just using water other then oil with the natural stones.
> I also bought this Fallknive Diamond and Med combo stone, as it requires no oil or water, i bought it for sharping a small Cold Steel War Hawk Axe and it does a really good job with just the Med. stone . It's a little costly at around $100 but i do like it.


I prefer Naniwa Chosera stones for Japanese water sharpening. They’re generally very hard and lend great feedback and longevity. My current progression for work blades on water stones is 800 (Chosera)-3k(Chosera)-8k (Kitayama). 

Ivan, I can comfortably recommend the Spyderco Ultrafine as an excellent dry finishing stone. Wash with Dawn and water to remove metal deposits. That might be a great addition to your new acquisition.


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## Ivan Hersh (Feb 23, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> I prefer Naniwa Chosera stones for Japanese water sharpening. They’re generally very hard and lend great feedback and longevity. My current progression for work blades on water stones is 800 (Chosera)-3k(Chosera)-8k (Kitayama).
> 
> Ivan, I can comfortably recommend the Spyderco Ultrafine as an excellent dry finishing stone. Wash with Dawn and water to remove metal deposits. That might be a great addition to your new acquisition.


I am sure looking at the Naniwa Chosera stone you recommended i just received a #400 Naniwa and really like it so far.
I ordered the Naniwa Chosera just now since i like my #400, and you are workinhg with the #800 i might also give it a try.
I have both of the Spyderco Ultra Fine stones i use them mostly on pocket knives.


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## lemeneid (Feb 23, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> I know the King stones very intimately, the King 1000 was my first experience water stone in 1999.
> 
> It’s a very smart recommendation Ivan, no doubt. My Inquiry was re: natural stones. My experience with natural stones is very limited. I browsed some Japanese naturals yesterday and found them ranging from $30-2,500 USD. Many are $200+, which indicates unique properties.
> 
> My curiosity is relative to what these natural stones do that any series of other stones can’t.


With natural stones, you can achieve much higher levels of polish than synthetics while still still having a good amount of teeth in the steel. my experience is pretty limited too but they seem to bring out the best of both high grit and low grit stones. Sharpness and bite are two things I prioritise in my knives and natural stones deliver on this. Synths either give you sharpness or bite, never both. I don't really buy the argument that nats give knives and razors better edge retention because of their serrated nature and uneven abrading of metal.

But as with all knives they have drawbacks, forming a good burr on a natural is a little harder than on synth so if you don't have great technique, your knives just won't be that great. Its ok with carbon knives as they sharpen easily anyway but stainless knives definitely need more work and definitely more stones in the progression so the cost of investing in naturals if you own stainless knives goes up significantly higher. Also yeah researching and finding your first good stones is a pain, but its something I'd think should be outsourced to a professional who knows what they are doing and tests stones. Fortunately there are loads of nice stone guys here on KKF who can guide you on your way.


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## Michi (Feb 23, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> But as with all knives they have drawbacks, forming a good burr on a natural is a little harder than on synth so if you don't have great technique, your knives just won't be that great. Its ok with carbon knives as they sharpen easily anyway but stainless knives definitely need more work and definitely more stones in the progression so the cost of investing in naturals if you own stainless knives goes up significantly higher.


Would there be anything wrong with using synthetics for the coarse work and switching to naturals for the finishing work? Best of both worlds?


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## SilverSwarfer (Feb 23, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> With natural stones, you can achieve much higher levels of polish than synthetics while still still having a good amount of teeth in the steel. my experience is pretty limited too but they seem to bring out the best of both high grit and low grit stones. Sharpness and bite are two things I prioritise in my knives and natural stones deliver on this. Synths either give you sharpness or bite, never both. I don't really buy the argument that nats give knives and razors better edge retention because of their serrated nature and uneven abrading of metal.
> 
> But as with all knives they have drawbacks, forming a good burr on a natural is a little harder than on synth so if you don't have great technique, your knives just won't be that great. Its ok with carbon knives as they sharpen easily anyway but stainless knives definitely need more work and definitely more stones in the progression so the cost of investing in naturals if you own stainless knives goes up significantly higher. Also yeah researching and finding your first good stones is a pain, but its something I'd think should be outsourced to a professional who knows what they are doing and tests stones. Fortunately there are loads of nice stone guys here on KKF who can guide you on your way.


Thanks Lemeneid! I’ve been browsing and brushing up on a lot of material online. Nothing will replace experience so I’m going to pick one and start testing. 

But before I do, I’m going to start a few conversations and send a few emails, maybe a couple phone calls, to consider some guidance. 

I’m thinking that I will focus on a natural finishing stone. This for daily maintenance and touch-ups. I’m very excited to establish a working understanding of the unique toothy sharpness I’m seeing mentioned.​


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## SilverSwarfer (Feb 23, 2019)

Michi said:


> Would there be anything wrong with using synthetics for the coarse work and switching to naturals for the finishing work? Best of both worlds?


Conceptually, this approach makes sense to me. This will be my personal approach.

Any insight from experienced users would be very much appreciated! @JBroida maybe?


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## lemeneid (Feb 23, 2019)

Michi said:


> Would there be anything wrong with using synthetics for the coarse work and switching to naturals for the finishing work? Best of both worlds?


Absolutely fine, I think most people start on naturals after 1k. Thats what I do anyway.


SilverSwarfer said:


> Thanks Lemeneid! I’ve been browsing and brushing up on a lot of material online. Nothing will replace experience so I’m going to pick one and start testing.
> 
> But before I do, I’m going to start a few conversations and send a few emails, maybe a couple phone calls, to consider some guidance.
> 
> I’m thinking that I will focus on a natural finishing stone. This for daily maintenance and touch-ups. I’m very excited to establish a working understanding of the unique toothy sharpness I’m seeing mentioned.​


A good finishing stone won't come cheap though, they're all $200 and above, unless you're ok with koppas or tomos. I'd suggest trying a good medium polishing stone that can be had for cheaper first before going to the really expensive finishing stones . Remember, you also have to build teeth from the bottom up, so a 6-8k to a natural finisher won't have as much teeth as a progression after 1k.


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## Ivan Hersh (Feb 24, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> With natural stones, you can achieve much higher levels of polish than synthetics while still still having a good amount of teeth in the steel. my experience is pretty limited too but they seem to bring out the best of both high grit and low grit stones. Sharpness and bite are two things I prioritise in my knives and natural stones deliver on this. Synths either give you sharpness or bite, never both. I don't really buy the argument that nats give knives and razors better edge retention because of their serrated nature and uneven abrading of metal.
> 
> But as with all knives they have drawbacks, forming a good burr on a natural is a little harder than on synth so if you don't have great technique, your knives just won't be that great. Its ok with carbon knives as they sharpen easily anyway but stainless knives definitely need more work and definitely more stones in the progression so the cost of investing in naturals if you own stainless knives goes up significantly higher. Also yeah researching and finding your first good stones is a pain, but its something I'd think should be outsourced to a professional who knows what they are doing and tests stones. Fortunately there are loads of nice stone guys here on KKF who can guide you on your way.


After reading your fine post i decided to get out my old small Smith and new larger Dan's natural Arkansas stones both soft stones, and do a little testing on six very cheap Farberware small steak knives i bought at Walmart for $10US, i used my smaller Smith soft first followed by the larger soft Dan's using smith honing oil, i was fairly happy with the sharping process but it's still far from how well my sharping works with real carbon steel knives.


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## Ivan Hersh (Feb 24, 2019)

Michi said:


> Would there be anything wrong with using synthetics for the coarse work and switching to naturals for the finishing work? Best of both worlds?


I don't think anything will really help me with my really hard cheap Farberware steak knives bought at Walmart for six at $10US, nothing can help poor quality stainless steel against quality carbon steel.


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## Trouthead (Feb 25, 2019)

I think I want a JNAT, for finish work.


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## Ivan Hersh (Feb 25, 2019)

Trouthead said:


> I think I want a JNAT, for finish work.


Some might not know what a JNAT is here is something to give them a clue.
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/razors-on-jnat/


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