# Kasumi vs Hongasumi



## knspiracy (Oct 22, 2020)

What are the definable differences?
It seems vague on other descriptions that I've read, like:
"Hongasumi often uses higher grade steel" But I've seen kasumi knives use high grade steel, white 1, 2, Blue 1, 2 etc So that doesn’t in and of itself distinguish it.
"more processes are required" What quantity of processes? are they different? What are they?
"its in the polishing" So, if i polish a kasumi - is it magically a hongasumi now?

Honyaki has a clearly defined feature. Why not these above?
Need help defining and/or understanding ...


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## spaceconvoy (Oct 22, 2020)

In Japanese you can add 'hon' (true) to anything to make it sound more official, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Like how Suisin Inox Honyaki aren't really honyaki knives, or natural stones with honyama kanji often aren't from the actual Honyama mine. But since 'true-mist' has no real meaning it's purely a marketing term. Mazaki uses it to indicate the billet was forged in-house and not prelaminated stock. I haven't done a survey but I'd assume most use it to mean 'extra fancy kasumi.'


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## Unstoppabo (Oct 22, 2020)

It's just a marketing term used by companies to differentiate knives that get more finishing work. Masamoto is probably the best known and they put the hongasumi tag on knives they hand finish. It's way easier to put a "fake" kasumi finish on a knife by sandblasting or hitting the bevel with a few strokes of abrasive powder. Both methods result in an artificial but uniform finish that hides any imperfections in the grind.


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## daveb (Oct 22, 2020)

Should any of the marketers from Shun (Yaxell, Dalstrong, et al) be reading this, there will soon be HonVG-10 introduced to the market. Add it to the plethora of double bevel usuba, kiritsuke, gum wrapper dammy, rocking santoku and all those other things that peg the coolmeters.


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## refcast (Oct 22, 2020)

As far as I've read, the hon-kasumi denotes more time and attention to "best practices" in knife making, so increased time and labor cost.

So the forging and forge-welding might be done at a more optimal temperature, in a manner that might take longer. The heat treat process be more labor intensive in order to improve certain steel characteristics. The higher grade of knife is often made harder, so more care must be taken to remove distortion. The sharpening and removal of distortion might be done more thoroughly. The bevels may be a more even and consistent. The finishing may have finer scratches. The quality of the product is both to a higher specification, and the variance of quality should be less. 

The finishing is the most obvious, because it's visual. Maybe Korin has the knife making steps in its catalog. A lot of Japanese knife wholesaler websites have the info about the processing steps, too.


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## dafox (Oct 22, 2020)

Regarding the use of the term honyaki, "The term has been adapted to describe high-end mono-stainless in Japan" Wikipedia


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## jwthaparc (Nov 5, 2020)

knspiracy said:


> "Hongasumi often uses higher grade steel" But I've seen kasumi knives use high grade steel, white 1, 2, Blue 1, 2 etc



From what I can remember kasumi literally translated means "mist"

It's the hazy, band that is on a lot of wide bevel knives with cladding. I don't can't comment on hongasumi, but kasumi has nothing to do with the quality of the steel.


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## JDC (Nov 5, 2020)

I'm not 100% sure, but it seems a knife labeled with "kasumi" may not necessarily have been finished on bench stones. But I tend to think of stone finish and even bevels with something labeled "Hongasumi."


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## McMan (Nov 6, 2020)

jwthaparc said:


> From what I can remember kasumi literally translated means "mist"
> 
> It's the hazy, band that is on a lot of wide bevel knives with cladding. I don't can't comment on hongasumi, but kasumi has nothing to do with the quality of the steel.


This^^
Kasumi refers to the polish--a "misty" or "hazy" polish.
Hon-Kasumi is just a more attentive kasumi polish. (Or, just a regular kasumi polish with a fancier name...)


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## McMan (Nov 6, 2020)

refcast said:


> As far as I've read, the hon-kasumi denotes more time and attention to "best practices" in knife making, so increased time and labor cost.
> 
> So the forging and forge-welding might be done at a more optimal temperature, in a manner that might take longer. The heat treat process be more labor intensive in order to improve certain steel characteristics. The higher grade of knife is often made harder, so more care must be taken to remove distortion. The sharpening and removal of distortion might be done more thoroughly. The bevels may be a more even and consistent. The finishing may have finer scratches. The quality of the product is both to a higher specification, and the variance of quality should be less.
> 
> The finishing is the most obvious, because it's visual. Maybe Korin has the knife making steps in its catalog. A lot of Japanese knife wholesaler websites have the info about the processing steps, too.


This comes from how JCK describes Mizuno's line; this is akin to branding the line in addition to describing kasumi vs. honkasumi:





From an old thread:


Matus said:


> I had a discussion on the kasumi vs honkasumi from Masamoto before (I was looking for a deba at that point). It is not only a matter of finish, but the honkasumi are supposed to have smaller chance of issues like low spots, uneven ura, etc. Kinda better QC over all.


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Nov 6, 2020)

kasumi is to hon kasumi as "cheese" is to "real cheese"

That can mean a whole lot of things in America, from fresh mozarella to orange plastic Kraft cheese. YMMV


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## valdim (Nov 27, 2020)

As an average knife enthusiast, I come to the conclusion that the "hon" added to "kasumi" nowadays is more of a marketing "trick" than a process of deliberate quality improvement, compared to "kasumi".


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## RDalman (Nov 27, 2020)

While cheese is up, maybe also discuss kurouchi?


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## valdim (Nov 27, 2020)

RDalman said:


> While cheese is up, maybe also discuss kurouchi?


Well...from the perspective of a knife dummy, I guess I can join that suggestion...


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## esoo (Nov 27, 2020)

RDalman said:


> While cheese is up, maybe also discuss kurouchi?



Are you trying to imply that some of those finishes are just painted on and not from the forge? I'm aghast. How could we let that happen as consumers?

/end sarcasm


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## RDalman (Nov 27, 2020)

esoo said:


> Are you trying to imply that some of those finishes are just painted on and not from the forge? I'm aghast. How could we let that happen as consumers?
> 
> /end sarcasm


Nah, by now I think everyone knows it means ~black? Sharpie>forgescale


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## inferno (Nov 28, 2020)

honkurouchi is the best kurouchi!


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## daveb (Nov 28, 2020)

honpost


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## M1k3 (Nov 28, 2020)

Honsaywhat?


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## RDalman (Nov 28, 2020)

inferno said:


> honkurouchi is the best kurouchi!


Do you think slow early death by liquid lead&graphite is necessary or could it be pulled off using a traditional honglegrinder?


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## inferno (Nov 29, 2020)

the blade needs to be cooked for exactly 72 hours on a bed of binchotan charcoal, and then quenched in the urine from 24 pandas! otherwise its not honkurouchi!


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