# Choosing my first jnat



## GorillaGrunt (Sep 18, 2017)

I'm looking to get one or two jnats. I've been getting into kasumi finishing lately using a Gesshin 400 and King 800 and I plan to get a Gesshin Jinzo Aoto soon. Currently I only have double bevel knives but I'll probably pick up that Masamoto usuba in a month or so. Also, I've been reading a lot of opinions that prefer the edge from a natural finishing stone over that from a synthetic, so I'd like to try that out. My finest finishing stone is a Maido 7000 which I follow with 1 micron diamond on balsa and then unloaded leather. I have a Guangxi hone which I've used after the Maido but I'm not sure that that works the same way as a jnat.

My questions are as follows:
1) Is there one stone that is good for finishing bevels after the Jinzo Aoto and also for edge finishing after synthetics, or do I want two stones?

2) Is there a particular mine and layer that I should be looking at for my purposes or is it more attribute-based (hardness, fineness, muddiness, etc.), and what levels of attributes will fit my needs?

3) For flattening, I have an Atoma 140 and a well-worn generic diamond plate as well as three synthetic nagura that came with a Chosera 400 and the Maido stones. Do I need a finer diamond plate?

4) For slurry, I have a black Tsushima cube and a piece of the Guangxi. Should I get more slurry stones?

5) If I use stropping compound after a jnat do I lose the benefits of edge retention and toothiness from the mixed particle size? What about the unloaded strop?

Thanks!


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## K813zra (Sep 18, 2017)

If I could only have one stone it would be my Monzen-to. If you play with it enough you can push the edge to somewhere around 4k when compared to synthetics. It is a soft stone but it is firm, not spongy so it has good tactile and perceive feedback. It is also quick enough to raise a burr if you should choose to do so. It leaves a fairly clean kasumi finish as well that is fairly dark but has some soft scratches left in the finish, it is a mid grit stone after all. 

I would say a close second is my Kouzaki Aoto. It is semi-hard for an aoto but fairly muddy and leaves a decent kasumi if not a little lighter than I might prefer. 

For narrow double bevels I like my Aizu. It leaves a nice edge in the 3-5k range with just enough subtle bite to get the job done. It also is quite hard for a Naka-to but quite a bit softer than many Awase-to that I have, but not all. Takashima is much softer than my Aizu. 

For softer stainless, I stop at Igarashi. Medium hard, fast and fairly fine. Leaves an aggressive edge. 

Higher Kasumi to follow a synthetic, I favor my Hideryiama over my other muddy finishers. It is a fairly slow cutter but for a cosmetic finish, that means little to me. It leaves a nice dark and even kasumi with no visible scratches. My Takashima Iromono is similar in that it leaves a clean kasumi, but it cuts much faster and leaves a more frosted finish rather than a dark finish. I prefer the edge from this one but the cosmetic finish from teh Hideri. My Oouchi falls somewhere in the middle. However, all of these are good affordable choices for a kasumi finish, imo. 

Do you need slurry stones or nagura, no. But they are nice to have, particularly if you have a hard finisher that is on the slow side. I like to use a Hakka nagura on my Yaginoshima Karasu. That particular Yagi. is freaking hard and slow but leaves a fine edge but I don't have the patience for that. Regardless, your Tsushima will be a wee bit on the coarse side for a Tomo but it leaves a fairly fine finish, cosmetically, and nice tooth on the edge. I think it should work fine on a lot of stones. Again, only my opinion. 

As for compounds, I don't use them so I can not answer that. I strop on newsprint with no ill effect, or not that I have noticed. 

Just my thoughts, hope they are of some help.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 18, 2017)

I don't have a monzento, but i agree with K813zra, you can get great results with Ikarashi (specially the right one), Kouzaki Aoto and Aizu if you are looking for a stone that will give you some good bite. Tsushima is not so well praised, but in my experience it leaves a great edge and a big stone can easily be found for a good price. Aotos can vary a lot, as most jnats, but it feels like a safe bet would be those muddy Kouzaki Aotos. Mine is fast and it leaves an awesome edge on aeb-l steel. The first time i used Aizu, i didn't like it as i thought it was too hard and wasn't fast enough. Today i feel it is perfect for a toothy edge on shirogami #2, for instance. Takashimas from JNS are usually soft and muddy, like this one: http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/takashima-lv-2-5-a1319/ , but those from AFrames are completely different. For instance: http://aframestokyo.com/takashima.html

Of course, suita stones are awesome and should leave a more refined edge. Which kind of edge would you like your first jnat to leave? Are you looking for a muddy stone or a harder specimen? Do you plan to use this stone after which stone(s)?

Good luck in your search!


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## K813zra (Sep 18, 2017)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> I don't have a monzento, but i agree with K813zra, you can get great results with Ikarashi (specially the right one), Kouzaki Aoto and Aizu if you are looking for a stone that will give you some good bite. Tsushima is not so well praised, but in my experience it leaves a great edge and a big stone can easily be found for a good price. Aotos can vary a lot, as most jnats, but it feels like a safe bet would be those muddy Kouzaki Aotos. Mine is fast and it leaves an awesome edge on aeb-l steel. The first time i used Aizu, i didn't like it as i thought it was too hard and wasn't fast enough. Today i feel it is perfect for a toothy edge on shirogami #2, for instance. Takashimas from JNS are usually soft and muddy, like this one: http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/takashima-lv-2-5-a1319/ , but those from AFrames are completely different. For instance: http://aframestokyo.com/takashima.html
> 
> Of course, suita stones are awesome and should leave a more refined edge. Which kind of edge would you like your first jnat to leave? Are you looking for a muddy stone or a harder specimen? Do you plan to use this stone after which stone(s)?
> 
> Good luck in your search!



Not all of the Takashima from Aframes are hard but most are. I got an Iromono off of him that is probably around a lvl 2.5. Softer than the Hideriyama and Oouchi that I got from Jon, muddier too. It is my favorite Takashima, in terms of feel, that I have tried. I just wish it was a little larger and more evenly cut as it does not stand well in a stone holder. I am going to need to mount this one.

As for getting the right Ikarashi, I agree. That is why I like the ones from Watanabe, as they are labeled softer or harder faster or slower etc. It takes out at least a little of the guessing work. The same with Aizu.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 18, 2017)

That's a problem with jnats in general: it's easier to buy a stone expecting one thing and get something else. If i were buying my first jnat, i would avoid AFrames for now, unless i had someone to guide me.


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## K813zra (Sep 18, 2017)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> That's a problem with jnats in general: it's easier to buy a stone expecting one thing and get something else. If i were buying my first jnat, i would avoid AFrames for now, unless i had someone to guide me.



That is a good point. He uses his own system for judging hardness as well. For finishing stones they are almost always 8-9 out of 10. That wouldn't be unusual except he goes 8.1, 8.2, 8.3 etc and it is confusing. Specifically because the hardness difference between what he calls an 8 and an 8.5 is very significant! Like the difference between a lvl 2.5 and lvl 4. Or at least that has been my experience. Good stones, if you know how to sort through them. 

JNS is a lot easier to pin point and he has good photos showing the slurry/mud and finish of the blade. A bit pricey as he picks up some really well rounded stones in terms of not only performance but size and shape. 

I personally like going through Watanabe and simply telling him what I am looking for as he has stones that he does not list. Or even some of the unknown mine stones that he has. He will gladly take pictures of the stone in use, too. 

However, I think if I were to do it all over again I would simply go with the BST right here. Some of the fellows on here sell some outrageous stones for great values and take wonderful photos as well as giving precise explanations on how the stone works. And often times it is contributing members of the forum that are well known and trusted, which is always a plus. Of course this takes more patience as you have to wait for what you want to show up. Well, you can do a WTB I guess.


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## GorillaGrunt (Sep 19, 2017)

Thanks for the input, please keep it coming!

I like a super refined edge - maybe I just don't know any better but I feel that the sharpest, keenest, smoothest edge suits my cutting style and gives me the result I want, and if I don't still have that at the end of the shift then I touch up on a fine stone or strop. From what I hear, though I haven't tried it, I'd prefer the edge from a true finishing stone over that from something in the Aizu/Aoto range, and this stone will follow whichever of the King Hyper 1k or the Maido 2k. Looking at a grit chart, I see that my synthetics finish in the 2-1.5 micron range so it seems that I would want to directly substitute the jnat finisher for the 5, 6, or 7k synthetic, and also that the 1 micron strop is unnecessary if these stones finish in the 8-10k range. I'll have to decide on the leather by experimentation.

For bevels, I think I want a muddier stone, yes? How does this impact the edge: do I want a harder stone for a more refined edge but a muddier one for cleaner kasumi? In this case I'd be using the jnat after the Jinzo Aoto, although now that I'm doing a bit more research I might just get a natural Aoto to follow the King -- at any rate, something in that 2-4k grit range before the stone I'm looking for.

I thought of posting a WTB, but the problem is I don't really know yet how to parse the attributes and data provided to match against what I want to achieve. Probably a good idea to reach out to e.g. Jon, Maxim, and Mr. Watanabe and ask them these questions for their inventories, and I'll have another look at the current BST offerings.


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## K813zra (Sep 19, 2017)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Thanks for the input, please keep it coming!
> 
> I like a super refined edge - maybe I just don't know any better but I feel that the sharpest, keenest, smoothest edge suits my cutting style and gives me the result I want, and if I don't still have that at the end of the shift then I touch up on a fine stone or strop. From what I hear, though I haven't tried it, I'd prefer the edge from a true finishing stone over that from something in the Aizu/Aoto range, and this stone will follow whichever of the King Hyper 1k or the Maido 2k. Looking at a grit chart, I see that my synthetics finish in the 2-1.5 micron range so it seems that I would want to directly substitute the jnat finisher for the 5, 6, or 7k synthetic, and also that the 1 micron strop is unnecessary if these stones finish in the 8-10k range. I'll have to decide on the leather by experimentation.
> 
> ...



You can still get a Kasumi finish with hard stone. Typically it is just that the finish is much lighter looking. Though, you could also end up with a foggy mirror appearance or streaking. It depends on the stones. Also, if you have any concavity to the blade road a muddy stone will help with that. I like a soft stone for these things. Hideriyama, Oouchi, Takashima and Hakka are commonly known as soft stones. But you can find soft versions of stones from other mines as well. 

You can follow a soft stone with a harder stone by making contact with just the very edge if you want. This takes more control as you every so slightly lift the spine so that the wide bevel is just barely off the stone. That is not to say that you can not finish your edge with the softer stone too. You should still be getting an edge in the 6-8k range, it just might be closer to the 6k range is all. 

There are loads of hard but not too hard stones out there that are quite fine. If you don't want to break the bank, maybe look at an Aiiwatani from JNS. Something in the 3-3.5 range for hardness. The affordable ones are koppa stones but are still fairly regular in shape and quite big for koppas. But really anything in the 3-4 range should be hard but manageable and still give a refined edge.


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## Badgertooth (Sep 20, 2017)

K813zra said:


> You can still get a Kasumi finish with hard stone. Typically it is just that the finish is much lighter looking. Though, you could also end up with a foggy mirror appearance or streaking. It depends on the stones. Also, if you have any concavity to the blade road a muddy stone will help with that. I like a soft stone for these things. Hideriyama, Oouchi, Takashima and Hakka are commonly known as soft stones. But you can find soft versions of stones from other mines as well.
> 
> You can follow a soft stone with a harder stone by making contact with just the very edge if you want. This takes more control as you every so slightly lift the spine so that the wide bevel is just barely off the stone. That is not to say that you can not finish your edge with the softer stone too. You should still be getting an edge in the 6-8k range, it just might be closer to the 6k range is all.
> 
> There are loads of hard but not too hard stones out there that are quite fine. If you don't want to break the bank, maybe look at an Aiiwatani from JNS. Something in the 3-3.5 range for hardness. The affordable ones are koppa stones but are still fairly regular in shape and quite big for koppas. But really anything in the 3-4 range should be hard but manageable and still give a refined edge.



I think this kinda covers it.

And your technique in the second paragraph is very well articulated.

Oouchi, soft takashima, hideriyama, Hakka and some aka pin will give you the nice Kasumi and ripping 6 - 8k edge. You could retain that look and make the core brighter yet and sharper yet with Kit's technique and a finer stone. The right Aiiwatani is also sold gold


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 20, 2017)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Thanks for the input, please keep it coming!
> 
> I like a super refined edge - maybe I just don't know any better but I feel that the sharpest, keenest, smoothest edge suits my cutting style and gives me the result I want, and if I don't still have that at the end of the shift then I touch up on a fine stone or strop. From what I hear, though I haven't tried it, I'd prefer the edge from a true finishing stone over that from something in the Aizu/Aoto range, and this stone will follow whichever of the King Hyper 1k or the Maido 2k. Looking at a grit chart, I see that my synthetics finish in the 2-1.5 micron range so it seems that I would want to directly substitute the jnat finisher for the 5, 6, or 7k synthetic, and also that the 1 micron strop is unnecessary if these stones finish in the 8-10k range. I'll have to decide on the leather by experimentation.
> 
> ...



If you are into refined edges for gyutos, you could start with a suita stone and go from there. They also can very a lot in fineness, but they are usually finer than Ikarashi/Aizu/Aoto.


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## GorillaGrunt (Sep 20, 2017)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> If you are into refined edges for gyutos, you could start with a suita stone and go from there. They also can very a lot in fineness, but they are usually finer than Ikarashi/Aizu/Aoto.



Would I be better off going from 1k or 2k to 3k or even 5k and then a natural finisher, or just from 2k to finisher?


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## Badgertooth (Sep 21, 2017)

2k to finisher is actually a wonderful edge. Toothy and keen at the same time. But if you like them smoother feeling, you wanna chuck a couple stones between 2k and finisher


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## zetieum (Sep 21, 2017)

I would advise Ikarashi, Aizu. There are also not expensive. 
Aizu is hard but finer. Very good finisher for carbon and stainless edge, refine and toothy. You can get a very nice polish with it with very aesthetic contrast between core and clad, semi-mirror+ but it requires good preparation, especially to get a uniform clad since the high grit will make all imperfection visible.
Ikarashi is much softer. Give nice edge that is -- let's be honest-- sufficient for kitchen use. Now most here will go for finer. Kasumi is easier but the core will not be mirror, but satin.


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## K813zra (Sep 21, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> 2k to finisher is actually a wonderful edge. Toothy and keen at the same time. But if you like them smoother feeling, you wanna chuck a couple stones between 2k and finisher



This is why he needs the Aizu, bridge stone. :biggrin:


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## GorillaGrunt (Sep 21, 2017)

So a Takashima or Aiiwatani would be good follow an Aoto for bevels and an Aizu for edges? And a Suita would follow that or would it be used instead? (I see a pair of long ears beckoning from below ground)


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## K813zra (Sep 21, 2017)

GorillaGrunt said:


> So a Takashima or Aiiwatani would be good follow an Aoto for bevels and an Aizu for edges? And a Suita would follow that or would it be used instead? (I see a pair of long ears beckoning from below ground)



The answer that you likely do not want to hear is that it depends. If we narrow it down to Ohira suita, which I have a few of, I have one that is coarser than my Takashima and two that are finer. All three are harder, faster but less muddy than the Takashima. My Yaginoshima Suita is loads and loads finer than my Takashima but it is slower too.


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## txtrqdrt (Sep 22, 2017)

GorillaGrunt said:


> So a Takashima or Aiiwatani would be good follow an Aoto for bevels and an Aizu for edges? And a Suita would follow that or would it be used instead? (I see a pair of long ears beckoning from below ground)



Take the following reply with a grain of salt as I'm quite new to jnats...

I have one of Maxim's Aiiwatani koppas (3.5) and it's pretty hard - I would say slow to medium cutting speed. 

I found that it doesn't leave a very even finish if you jump to it from around 3k without anything in between. I would go aoto to suita and then if you really want to, aiiwatani last (not really necessary though, in my opinion). 

I'm currently using a red aoto to an ohira suita koppa. This leaves a nice edge and nice kasumi finish. If I was to continue with the aiiwatani, I'd lose the kasumi finish and it would take a fair bit of time to get to an even semi-mirror finish + less contrast between jigane and hagane.


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## tgfencer (Sep 22, 2017)

Badgertooth said:


> 2k to finisher is actually a wonderful edge. Toothy and keen at the same time. But if you like them smoother feeling, you wanna chuck a couple stones between 2k and finisher



This is my quick go-to method as well, particularly for double bevels.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 22, 2017)

I've got a nice Aiiwatani w renge from Maxim that I don't use could have it?


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## GorillaGrunt (Sep 26, 2017)

Decided upon an Aiiwatani and a harder stone believed to be a Nakayama. Thanks all!


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 26, 2017)

Its on its way Tom.


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## K813zra (Sep 26, 2017)

GorillaGrunt said:


> Decided upon an Aiiwatani and a harder stone believed to be a Nakayama. Thanks all!



That is cool. I hope you enjoy them and share your experiences here.


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