# Western makers vs. established japanese smiths



## Viggetorr (Oct 31, 2018)

Generally on this forum, and in the community in particular, it seems to me that western makers inspired by japanese knives seem to fetch a lot higher prices per knife than most of the established japanese smiths charge (excepting the shig/kato craze). Why is that? Do knives by makers such as Halcyon Forge, Comet, Dalman, Hazenberg and so on (generally) outperform mid-priced japanese makers such as Tanaka, Kurosaki, the Gesshin lines Wakui and so on? Or is the price setting more of a supply/demand kind of thing which make these western makers more desirable for western knife knuts and collectors?

Please discuss!


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## Larrin (Oct 31, 2018)

I haven't put any of the makers knives you listed side by side to compare, but similarities in style do not always mean they are similar in terms of hours or material costs. On top of that, many of the Japanese makers are making many knives in the same model in batches whereas "new" American makers are typically producing one off knives.


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## RDalman (Oct 31, 2018)

Price is always a funtion of supply/demand  for the japanese too. 
I think "generally" is difficult. There are folks disappointed in japanese randomness, as well as folks disappointed in western garage tweakers. Also, what is best for one knife-knut is not necessarily best for the other.


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## Gregmega (Oct 31, 2018)

Agree with RD on this one. Most western smiths produce one or several at a time, alone, and only in their style, while Japanese smiths could have several oem accounts on top of their own signature line, and a host of other people as part of the production, making their output much greater. But there’s a whole other convo in there about s&d, cog’s, etc that could be trivialized ad infintum.

I wouldn’t say out perform, so much as I’d say perform differently. There’s a pretty clear difference between Japanese & western makers in my experience, and as such, I’d even go as far to say it’s difficult to compare & contrast without coming to the conclusion they they’re just different animals all together. I enjoy mine for completely different reasons, FWIW [emoji847]


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## labor of love (Oct 31, 2018)

Great discussion so far and I agree with everything said. Also, it took quite awhile for me to figure out that their really doesn’t need to be a preference for either part of the dichotomy but rather appreciate the things both models bring to the table.


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## Barmoley (Oct 31, 2018)

Usually, fit and finish is better with western makers. Also, handles are usually much more elaborate, using different materials and shapes. For most Japanese makers a handle is just an after thought. Like it or not but these things take work, which costs time and money. Both produce great knives which are different enough to peacefully coexist.


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## aaamax (Oct 31, 2018)

I'll say that with the "Westerners" custom makers, et all, you are more than likely getting a blade made by said Smith.
The Japanese makers... well, maybe not so much... but that is a Whole Other Monster Discussion, but worth mentioning in this context.
my 2c


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## labor of love (Oct 31, 2018)

I will say what lead me to trying out more western makers was the openness to pushing mono steel to the limits, Atleast with a $400-600 price tag. Ofcourse with a budget thrown out the window we can enjoy plenty of $900-1200 honyakis made in Japan. 
By that same token there’s so many great brands and Smiths in Japan that seem to have perfected the division of labor and have delivered great San mai blades to the market for $250-400. 
My thinking at this point is as such...if I want mono+customization+F&F= Western maker.
If I want San mai+experience through trail and error at perfecting a harmony of grind/heat treat/profile+division of labor to improve costs= Japanese maker.
The outliers are abundant here- plenty of western makers do great San mai I’m sure, and plenty of Japanese makers excel at F&F.
The learned experience of cranking out many knives efficiently and constantly improving the process can’t be understated. 
The learned experience of having a direct connection with the customer to make a knife to his liking can’t be understated either.


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## captaincaed (Oct 31, 2018)

It seems like there can be a difference in priorities given different customer needs, and thus different economic and social expectations that need to be met.

I think if you're in the knife game long enough you start to blow past the $200 limit you hold yourself to in the beginning. Once you break that seal ...

Once you start spending "real money", I feel like I want a "complete package" of quality steel, quality grind, and to some extent, creature comforts like fancy handles. Bought my Carter basically on handle alone. Maybe not the best choice but there you go.

I also like the support provided by helpful proprietors. I don't have the cultural intelligence to deal with Japan directly, so I'm inclined to speak with people who speak my lingo at can translate.

I also think that craftsmen are weirdos, in the best sense. Sometimes there's a craftsmanship tradition to bring the makers together, and sometimes not. There are economic consequences both ways to keep a business afloat. I have to imagine that western makers have lower volumes, and thus need to cater to a custom market that can live harmoniously in parallel to a market that favors functional economy.

Then there are custom makers who strike it crazy lucky and end up putting golden rhinos on their blades. Not sure how that market functions, I have to work for living. 

And now I've talked way too long


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## nakneker (Oct 31, 2018)

I like this thread, I’ve been pondering Western Makers vs Japanese for the last month or so. Started my journey into J knives about 10 months ago, I started with a 200 Makato and thought it was a Cadillac. I’ve since traded and sold dozens of knives. It’s been all Japanese knives for most of that time. I ended up with some Shigs, some Katos, various Honyakis and didn’t give the Western Smiths much of a look at all. That’s changing though. I’m on the books with Haburn, Halycon, Carter Hopkins, Bloodroot.

There’s many others I intend to try too. For me personally the Makers outside of Japan offer a variety and twist that Japan does not. I love my Shig, Katos and Honyakis but some of the Damascus, the bolsters, the handles and the profiles offered by those outside of Japan have become very attractive to me.

I have a lot of respect for anyone with enough courage to follow their dreams and try and make a living selling the knives they create, part tool, part art you have to have some dedication and some talent to make it in that line of work. Custom kitchen knives interest me period, both Japan and outside of Japan.


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## Gregmega (Oct 31, 2018)

I will also say that western makers also don’t carry some of the ‘taboos’ that Japanese makers do, for instance when Halcyon Forge made my knife, it was an amazing experience. Specs down to the tenth of the millimeter, and during the final cut, to-the-minute opportunity for any changes, including the final shaping. Amazing. ‘Want a k-tip gyuto-hiki hybrid? Never done it, but let’s try it!’ That openness created a beautiful specimen. One of my favorite knives, and made with me in mind. Dang.


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## Chef Doom (Oct 31, 2018)

The reason why American makers are more expensive is for the very reason why China makes 90% of USA goods. American labor is expensive. 

Also you are paying for the learning curve American makers must go through. American education is also expensive.


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## milkbaby (Oct 31, 2018)

The western makers OP is asking about tend to make sole authorship knives with very high fit and finish. Basically one person does every job needed to make the knife from forging, grinding, to making the handles. Many of the Japanese bladesmiths (not all) are using prelaminated san mai whereas many of the western makers are forging their own, for example Joe/Halcyon Forge has been laminating wrought iron to carbon steel as seen in the pic above. You can't buy that prelaminated from Hitachi, it has to be made.

I believe most of the Japanese bladesmiths mentioned work in a small workshop setting, where there are multiple people working on the knives. For example, the bladesmith may forge out the knives but there may be a separate worker that cleans up the profile, a sharpener that grinds the blade, and yet another person who installs the handles. Or even multiple people doing these jobs. The handles are often bought from an outside handle factory and merely installed.


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## panda (Oct 31, 2018)

I've discovered a few western makers (not from OPs list) that i am thrilled with their work, but at the end i still yern for good ole japanese made knives. my unicorn is actually obtainable without a waitlist and/or stupid high prices and is made by a master.


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## XooMG (Oct 31, 2018)

Disappointment or ambivalence creates much less acrimony when the purchase is impersonal.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 1, 2018)

You can use all of the excuses you may please. Bottom line is it costs more to produce things in America than other Eastern countries, including Japan. You could get the same customer service with the same fit and finishes with the same level of custom detail if you lazy bums learned to speak Japanese. Maybe even make a trip to Japan. Since most of you don't or won't then it is obvious that the best customer service you could obtain is Made In The USA.


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## Gregmega (Nov 1, 2018)

I don’t know man, have you even been to Japan? Or worked in Japan? It’s one of the few places I’ve been to that the price difference was actually was palpable versus places I’ve lived/visited. I think there’s a bit more to the convo than ‘learning to speak the language’.


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## ecchef (Nov 1, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> You can use all of the excuses you may please. Bottom line is it costs more to produce things in America than other Eastern countries, including Japan. You could get the same customer service with the same fit and finishes with the same level of custom detail if you lazy bums learned to speak Japanese. Maybe even make a trip to Japan. Since most of you don't or won't then it is obvious that the best customer service you could obtain is Made In The USA.



I think for the price of a round trip flight and a Japanese language intensive course, you could probably get a few great customs from US makers!


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## Wdestate (Nov 1, 2018)

i agree with most of what was said already. I personally like the western makers because you can have input on exactly what you are looking for in a knife from grind to specs to handle material and generally everything in between. However all those additions you might ask for plus the materials and labor is what you are paying a premium for along with supply and demand, being that all these little additions to a blade done by one guy takes time and prevents mass production like many of the makers you mentioned from japan.


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## Eloh (Nov 1, 2018)

Another, maybe more suiting comparsion might be a small company like Herder, wich offers drop forged chefs knifes sharpened by hand for around $200.


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## ramenlegend (Nov 1, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> You can use all of the excuses you may please. Bottom line is it costs more to produce things in America than other Eastern countries, including Japan. You could get the same customer service with the same fit and finishes with the same level of custom detail if you lazy bums learned to speak Japanese. Maybe even make a trip to Japan. Since most of you don't or won't then it is obvious that the best customer service you could obtain is Made In The USA.



Oh man! Ruthless! I guess you're not into beautiful shaped yo handles


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## labor of love (Nov 1, 2018)

ramenlegend said:


> Oh man! Ruthless! I guess you're not into beautiful shaped yo handles


Custom maker: hey so what kinda of handle material do you want for this custom?
Me: do you have any old ho wood or iichi handles laying around?


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## Chef Doom (Nov 1, 2018)

ecchef said:


> I think for the price of a round trip flight and a Japanese language intensive course, you could probably get a few great customs from US makers!


Lol I actually agree with this. It's one of those things that needs a cost benefit analysis.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 1, 2018)

Gregmega said:


> I don’t know man, have you even been to Japan? Or worked in Japan? It’s one of the few places I’ve been to that the price difference was actually was palpable versus places I’ve lived/visited. I think there’s a bit more to the convo than ‘learning to speak the language’.


I have not been to Japan but like most places the prices can be cheap or expensive depending on your intentions. Obviously if you plan on seeking all of the standard american comforts your wallet will suffer for it.

I'm not saying Japan is cheap. I'm simply stating American labor is generally more expensive and is increasingly being made more expensive for several factors.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 1, 2018)

ramenlegend said:


> Oh man! Ruthless! I guess you're not into beautiful shaped yo handles


Wood is cheap, it's the drying, staining stabalizing etc that is expensive.

Lumber is something America excels at for one, and handle choices have little to do with knife performance unless you want the handle to be a major factor in knife balance.

Say what you want about ho wood, it allows the knife to be the main attraction and brings me my money on time every night without a slap to the face. The stabilized birch always needs an ass kicking.


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## panda (Nov 1, 2018)

my favorite handle material is keyaki


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## Viggetorr (Nov 2, 2018)

Interesting input everyone. To Chef Doom I'd just like to say that there are custom makers outside the USA (even though some americans have a tendency to forget about anything outside the US  ).

However, the discussion has focused a lot on custom work from western makers, which is of course more exepensive than non custom work. A lot of western makers, at least occasionally, also produce blades without a specific customer in mind and then sell these just like a japanese smith would. These, too, tend to be more expensive than the average japanese smiths knife. Is that the F&F talking, or is the more costly labour that Chef Doom argues for? Or is the one-person-shop-factor? Thoughts?


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## RDalman (Nov 2, 2018)

It's probably the supply/demand talking. For a long time I was unwilling to allow supply/demand push the prices up, but it's just not how to run a business. If you're employed, maybe look at it like if your boss offered you a raise because your work is good/well liked/popular (from a really low one, to say a more average one) would you say no thanks?


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## Eloh (Nov 2, 2018)

Looking at it the other way round is more helpful, if shiro kamo or shigeki Tanaka can offer hand made full size blades for ~$100 you can be sure that there's not a lot of working hours in them 


I'm sure there are western makers who would be able to do similar, but 

1. There is not a big market for western made blades with terrible f&f.  

2. Most western makers became knife makers due to a passion for cool knives not as merely a job.



Also you can get a xerxes Primus for the same price as a Suisin Inox Honyaki.

There simply aren't any western makers who specialize in producing decent to good cutting knives in high numbers for as cheap as possible.


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## Viggetorr (Nov 2, 2018)

RDalman said:


> It's probably the supply/demand talking. For a long time I was unwilling to allow supply/demand push the prices up, but it's just not how to run a business. If you're employed, maybe look at it like if your boss offered you a raise because your work is good/well liked/popular (from a really low one, to say a more average one) would you say no thanks?



Absolutely not, and I want to make clear that I'm absolutely not trying to imply that western makers are charging to much for their work. I'm sorry if I came across that way. Supply/demand is a perfectly fine explanation, to me.

In the end, I guess I'm just trying to convince myself that I need a couple of custom western knives to compare to my jknives. A Dalman would certainly be high on that list!


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## RDalman (Nov 2, 2018)

No worries! I think maybe possibly... You would enjoy the german forum, they pick things apart german style 
It can be read with translator. Kochmalscharf.freeforums.net


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## RDalman (Nov 2, 2018)

Also in case Stockholm is not too far for you, cleancut is having a gathering with tanaka forging demo, nov 20. I will come and bring whatever knives I have in progress.


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## LostHighway (Nov 2, 2018)

I haven't purchased any custom knives yet but I do have experience with buying custom bicycle frames. I guess the analagous situation would be small production Italian racing frames relative to U.S. custom builders, at least back in the day of Columbus and Reynolds steel frames. Even if you hadn't ridden or owned a large number of other bikes so you had a very clear idea of what you wanted a good American builder would take a large number of measurements of his customer, question what changes they wanted from their current bike and the exact application, and go out on rides with the customer to observe them on the bike. Of course, if you commissioned a frame from a builder some distance away you either had to incur travel costs or try to substitute photos and e-mails. If I could afford it and if I had owned quite a few more Japanese knives I *might* consider buying a custom knife but the idea of buying a custom bike frame, a suit, a pair of shoes or an instrument without direct, in person, contact with the maker is somewhat off putting to me. To the best of my knowledge I don't live near any well-regarded knife makers and, for me, that is a major obstacle.


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## Barmoley (Nov 2, 2018)

I think custom knives are easier than custom bike frames. Cost is different and there are a lot more going on with bikes plus I assume you race at least in theory when you buy custom bike frames. With knives, there is only so much a maker can do when it comes to performance and even though a knife could be tailored to an individual, the performance benefit would be marginal at best. You also have to consider that a knife if used a lot changes its dimensions through its life.

Good idea though to try many knives before ordering a custom, too many of us think they know what they want before having enough experience for this to be true.


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## LostHighway (Nov 2, 2018)

FWIW I don't think a bicycle frame builder equivalent of Chelsea Miller knives would have survived for long.


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## Jville (Nov 2, 2018)

LostHighway said:


> FWIW I don't think a bicycle frame builder equivalent of Chelsea Miller knives would have survived for long.


But the bike would look so rustic . I will admit I've seen a couple that looked ok. I'd be curious about the grinds on a few. But they definitely seem way more about marketing than sound performance.


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## mikaelsan (Nov 2, 2018)

without having purchased anything custom from a western maker, i think the amount/time of labor put into making has to be the main defining factor. I'm guessing the cost of living is not that crazy much higher in the west, compared to Japan, if you know where i am going with that. 
But you hear stories about Japanese smiths forging a ridicules amount of blades pr day, and not necessarily being involved in much more of the process of the finished product. Then you compare it to stories of western makers struggling to keep up with demand, when they have to make a great product, to keep up with the standard they have set. 
It makes you think that there are a huge difference in efficiency with the way things are done.
I'm not trying to slam western makers, i actually have an idea in my head that most decent makers put a lot of work into a piece. Nor am i trying to paint a picture that i assume its super easy to get by as a Japanese "style" smith.

I would personally be much more likely to buy something from a western maker if they left some blades as cost efficient as can be: cut out the gluing process with cheap pre-made "hammer on"/wa handles, leave the 80-200grit grind marks from the not ocd-level grinding on, leave the spine and choil as is, actually basically just give me a well heat treated not too thick hunk of steel, and leave me to do the rest


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## RDalman (Nov 2, 2018)

I wish I could, but the most part of the time spent is on the coarsest grit, you're right about inefficient/slow. But what (i think many of us westerners) do is doing our absolutely best. Setting the "tolerances" so tight means every blade takes alot more time to dial in, in comparison with slamming in one bevel at a angle. I wouldnt be surprised the japanese take 5-10 min to grind a iron clad blade. When I make one clad the initial grinding is fast, but when it comes to the point I start reaching really thin on the edge and the geometry say 20 mm up, along with taper, that's where they start to go bendy with almost every pass... You get the picture. With monosteel the process of finish grinding is just slower because everything is very very hard steel.. If I have put in say 6 hours on a knife, I kindof feel it deserves a half or hour worth of finishing work. And then at the end of the week, if I got three knives done, they need to cover the income needed for running the business a week. Overhead/reality is also there. Don't know if this helps to understand, at the end of the day it is supply/demand.


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## ThinMan (Nov 2, 2018)

panda said:


> I've discovered a few western makers (not from OPs list) that i am thrilled with their work, but at the end i still yern for good ole japanese made knives. my unicorn is actually obtainable without a waitlist and/or stupid high prices and is made by a master.



What is it?


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## Chef Doom (Nov 2, 2018)

LostHighway said:


> FWIW I don't think a bicycle frame builder equivalent of Chelsea Miller knives would have survived for long.


Are you kidding? With the right advertisement she could sell even more bike frames than knives. It's all in the presentation.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 2, 2018)

Eloh said:


> Looking at it the other way round is more helpful, if shiro kamo or shigeki Tanaka can offer hand made full size blades for ~$100 you can be sure that there's not a lot of working hours in them
> 
> 
> I'm sure there are western makers who would be able to do similar, but
> ...


I have walked through many home kitchens and trust me, people don't really care where their knives come from.

I don't know who xerxes Primus is and I can't understand the funny language on his website. I'm also too lazy to click on the translate button.

I don't know the quality of his knives, but if it performs less favorable to the Inox Honyaki, then it only further proves my point. This is only theoretical since I have not tested either blade.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 2, 2018)

RDalman said:


> I wish I could, but the most part of the time spent is on the coarsest grit, you're right about inefficient/slow. But what (i think many of us westerners) do is doing our absolutely best. Setting the "tolerances" so tight means every blade takes alot more time to dial in, in comparison with slamming in one bevel at a angle. I wouldnt be surprised the japanese take 5-10 min to grind a iron clad blade. When I make one clad the initial grinding is fast, but when it comes to the point I start reaching really thin on the edge and the geometry say 20 mm up, along with taper, that's where they start to go bendy with almost every pass... You get the picture. With monosteel the process of finish grinding is just slower because everything is very very hard steel.. If I have put in say 6 hours on a knife, I kindof feel it deserves a half or hour worth of finishing work. And then at the end of the week, if I got three knives done, they need to cover the income needed for running the business a week. Overhead/reality is also there. Don't know if this helps to understand, at the end of the day it is supply/demand.


I understand where you are coming from. All people would have to say is "I'm American and I deserve more for my efforts because I have bills to pay."

Case in point, I was watching an interview where a farmer attempted to hire American workers. When he explained what the job was picking produce and how much it pays, he stated more than a few people said "I'm not doing THAT kind of work for $18/hour". 

It wasn't the job that was the problem. It was the idea that if I'm going to do back breaking labor, I expect to be compensated for it.

They did not see the irony that if they had the skills for better employment then they would not be looking for a job as a fruit picker in the first place.

A plot by the Illuminati to keep Americans fat and lazy for the eventual harvest. Heard it on Alex Jones.


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## Gregmega (Nov 2, 2018)

I think it has a lot to do with the basic culture surrounding the knife makers themselves- japan has a terrifically longer history activating the community to see those ends, and have effectively been able to create a commodity knife economy; while by and large, western makers are almost strictly custom. That alone says it all. 

Besides Carter* and Kramer*, there aren’t many ‘makers’ doing large batch knives at commodity level (*not to say they are selling at commodity prices*), and as such own the market and demand the prices. Were someone good to come along and produce good to great knives at a more affordable price to disrupt their market, prices would surely be scrutinized if a large enough dent was made. Of course this would also mean you’d see the same range of knives, from amazing to terrible. 

To hammer the culture bit home even more, the only people ordering these custom western knives are people in the know, and generally have more disposable income & discerning taste than the average person in the strongest economy in the world. After all, business success is knowing what the market will bear, and generally riding that threshold. Meanwhile in Japan, in a culture far more obsessed with cuisine coupled with a multigenerational understanding of knives, there’s a market & demand for price points that are more sober than the average custom western market. 

So the culture essentially looks like this imo- western makers are niche, almost cult, play well to their audience, and can demand those prices. Japanese makers have generations under their belt and have developed a considerably broader spectrum with price points for all end users. 

(I’m sure there are 35 points of nuance that can picked and expanded upon from this angle alone)


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## Migraine (Nov 2, 2018)

Gregmega said:


> Besides Carter* and Kramer*, there aren’t many ‘makers’ doing large batch knives at commodity level (*not to say they are selling at commodity prices*), and as such own the market and demand the prices. Were someone good to come along and produce good to great knives at a more affordable price to disrupt their market, prices would surely be scrutinized if a large enough dent was made. Of course this would also mean you’d see the same range of knives, from amazing to terrible.



I think a strange quirk of the way markets work is that if someone actually did this, people would assume it wasn't as good because the price was a lot lower and it would end up selling less/being less desirable to a lot of people. Places like this forum would pick up on the higher bang-to-buck ratio and it would be popular here, but we aren't a big market and are unrepresentative of 'most people'.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 2, 2018)

There are plenty of hunting, utlity and EDC knives that are what you would call affordable, but this is also factory production. Japan has it's own factory produced knives too but I don't want to change the nature of this thread.

Even if say all Devin Thomas did was forge knives all day, then say someone else came in, took that box, and did all of the grind work, then another guy comes in and does all of the sharpening and polishing, then another final person did the handle work , the knife still would be more expensive in comparison. $200 alone for said chef's knife would go to cover health care and risk insurance.

In fact, the very reason why American makers have to be involved in every aspect of the knife making process from handle to tip is because it would cost too much to hire help which would also raise the price of the knife.


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## Gregmega (Nov 2, 2018)

ThinMan said:


> What is it?



Mazaki[emoji12][emoji12]


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## madelinez (Nov 2, 2018)

I don't really think American labour is that expensive. Physical trades are not that highly paid compared to a lot of western countries. The difference between the US and Japan is not huge either, cost of living in Japan feels a little higher in my experience. Unless you compare it to somewhere like San Francisco of course.


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## changy915 (Nov 2, 2018)

It's a function of my search history but my Instagram feed is filled with custom knife maker. Everyone takes great pictures and chooses the right filter these days and it makes me wonder if it makes more sense for custom makers to focus more on visual than performance in order to sell a knife. The need to standout and hashtag also leads to a lot of ******** such as rehandling a knife and calling it a "custom".


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## RDalman (Nov 2, 2018)

In fact, the very reason why American makers have to be involved in every aspect of the knife making process from handle to tip is because it would cost too much to hire help which would also raise the price of the knife.

Is true over here in sweden too. Just safety standards would stop me from getting anyone else involved.


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## inferno (Nov 2, 2018)

Viggetorr said:


> Generally on this forum, and in the community in particular, it seems to me that western makers inspired by japanese knives seem to fetch a lot higher prices per knife than most of the established japanese smiths charge (excepting the shig/kato craze). Why is that? Do knives by makers such as Halcyon Forge, Comet, Dalman, Hazenberg and so on (generally) outperform mid-priced japanese makers such as Tanaka, Kurosaki, the Gesshin lines Wakui and so on? Or is the price setting more of a supply/demand kind of thing which make these western makers more desirable for western knife knuts and collectors?
> 
> Please discuss!



I guess its simply easier to buy japanese knives. there are more of them. usually in stock at several places. so they are not as "exclusive".
Personally I'm happy with japanese stuff. you can get almost whatever you want and also put on whatever handle you like.


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## Gregmega (Nov 2, 2018)

Any one of these American makers could easily find a place to do production to their specs, slap their name on it, and call it ‘Devin Thomas made’ if they chose to do so, and at a price point that’s more affordable. It’s just not a market worth entertaining as there’s no vacuum to fill. As such it’s easier to do your own custom style, and make a decent wage as a craftsmen, without the market telling you what & how to produce. And again, the Japanese market has been supporting their productions for generations, while westerners have become happy with anything that’s sharp ootb and doesn’t rust, cause we ain’t got time for that sh**. So in that way the Japanese have fostered a culture that more closely resembles a fully fleshed out & varied market. Here it’s either the stainless banger your grandmother used, or a bespoke piece of art. Beyond that, the last time westerners forged anything of value was pre & post war, or essentially pre stainless. Unless the culture changes dramatically towards carbon, we likely won’t see a change in the demand for more price points from western makers anytime soon. 

I’m sure Broida could load our ears up with the drama of selling carbon to normies. [emoji23]


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## playero (Nov 2, 2018)

wow this is a good thread. I have well over 100 kitchen knives, german, pakistan, south america, england the US, china and japan. the construction is depending on who is making them and what he is making them from. i have seen guys that mix their own steel and use even meteorite remains. the world is for demand and offer if I can get over 5,000 for a knife let's celebrate this. I also seen a japanese guy make a knive in close to one hour. the guy has been making knives for more than 50 years and he is an artist. the price difference I don't understand why but see shops in the US with dust collectors, temperature setting, fire compliance walls and equipment, as clean as a house plus other things. seen shops in other parts and they lack most of these things. maybe this influences. any way the maker is an artist and if they do an auction their price goes thru the roof. I seen some guys that do a raffle so that the normal person can get or receive on of those knives.


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## osakajoe (Nov 2, 2018)

RDalman said:


> I wouldnt be surprised the japanese take 5-10 min to grind a iron clad blade. When I make one clad the initial grinding is fast, but when it comes to the point I start reaching really thin on the edge and the geometry say 20 mm up, along with taper, that's where they start to go bendy with almost every pass... You get the picture. With monosteel the process of finish grinding is just slower because everything is very very hard steel.. If I have put in say 6 hours on a knife,



Here’s your answer. Time and quantity. 

Now a master craftsman can work fast but that’s 10-15+ years of experience. For you to assume it takes 5 minutes to grind a blade obviously shows western makers have no idea of the Japanese grinding process, and assume forging is the only craft involved. There are at least 10-15 steps involved in grinding most blades. It all depends on the level of the blade and how it needs to be finished. Keep in mind I know more of the double bevel process and not of the single bevel. 

It also has to do with Japanese culture. They tend to focus on one craft and only do that craft until they hopefully can one day master it. Talk to any old craftsman and they’ll say the moment you think you’ve mastered it and have no more questions is the day you should retire. 

This is why in Japan it’s done in clustering. A forger forgers. A sharpener sharpens. A handle maker makes handles. Each one of those is a craft in itself. For one to try and master all those crafts would take you 15-20 years. 

Again, I’m more knowledgeable in the grinding process of double bevel blades. Going back to time... The tools used, mostly belt grinders, by western makers are vastly slower than those by Japanese grinders, huge water wheels. I would say a master grinder with an apprentice can at least fully grind 500 mid to high level knives a month. 

Spending 6 hours on ONE knife is where you’re costs come from. Labor time and quantity of blades.


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## inferno (Nov 2, 2018)

lol I usually spend about 10-15h on each of my handles. but then i dont use any machinery except a cordless drill. I'm in no hurry though. its knife therapy


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## mikaelsan (Nov 2, 2018)

have you seen how they shape wa handles ^^? takes no time at all


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## inferno (Nov 2, 2018)

yes i have seen it. and several others similar. they can do oval, round, octagon etc etc. all in 10 seconds. I work with files/rasps/needle files/sandpaper/carving knives/japanese saws. and i dont do wa handles.


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## RDalman (Nov 2, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> Here’s your answer. Time and quantity.
> 
> Now a master craftsman can work fast but that’s 10-15+ years of experience. For you to assume it takes 5 minutes to grind a blade obviously shows western makers have no idea of the Japanese grinding process, and assume forging is the only craft involved. There are at least 10-15 steps involved in grinding most blades. It all depends on the level of the blade and how it needs to be finished. Keep in mind I know more of the double bevel process and not of the single bevel.
> 
> ...



500 mid to high level knives per month come to about three per hour with a 40 hour week. I do think I understand from where you're coming and I don't mean to slight or value in any way. For me, I don't necessarily see a problem spending six hours on a blade if the outgoing product meets my goals, and makes the customer happy.

I was very disappointed in my first japanese knife. It was a double bevel wa gyuto that was ground and finished in such a way it simply cut terribly. It took many hours at home with the stones to get it to "acceptable" level. It's where I'm coming from. It was not exorbitantly priced, but it wasnt a great experience either. I think and am happy to see people say, that western and japanese makers can coexist and fill different needs for the chefs and geeks.


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## osakajoe (Nov 2, 2018)

I didn’t say anywhere that Japanese knives are better than other knives. Not taking anything away from what you and others do. I live in Osaka and work in the knife industry. Also been apprenticing with a grinder for almost 2 years now.

I was just giving my insight on how things are done here compared with western makers I have met and talked to. As well as stating why I think the prices are different.

Also, anyone who thinks because it’s a Japanese Knife it’s superior to all others is ridiculous. There are way more crap Japanese knives than good quality. I would easily take a she Han knife over a majority of those knives.


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## panda (Nov 3, 2018)

ThinMan said:


> What is it?


mizuno white#2 honyaki custom length.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 3, 2018)

RDalman said:


> Is true over here in sweden too. Just safety standards would stop me from getting anyone else involved.



I know "Western" on this forum can be code word for American, but trust me Europe is also included as part of the Western group. Britain's exchange rate alone can be a nightmare. Those VAT taxes are also brutal.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 3, 2018)

madelinez said:


> I don't really think American labour is that expensive. Physical trades are not that highly paid compared to a lot of western countries. The difference between the US and Japan is not huge either, cost of living in Japan feels a little higher in my experience. Unless you compare it to somewhere like San Francisco of course.


Depends on how you were living.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 3, 2018)

Gregmega said:


> Any one of these American makers could easily find a place to do production to their specs, slap their name on it, and call it ‘Devin Thomas made’ if they chose to do so, and at a price point that’s more affordable. It’s just not a market worth entertaining as there’s no vacuum to fill. As such it’s easier to do your own custom style, and make a decent wage as a craftsmen, without the market telling you what & how to produce. And again, the Japanese market has been supporting their productions for generations, while westerners have become happy with anything that’s sharp ootb and doesn’t rust, cause we ain’t got time for that sh**. So in that way the Japanese have fostered a culture that more closely resembles a fully fleshed out & varied market. Here it’s either the stainless banger your grandmother used, or a bespoke piece of art. Beyond that, the last time westerners forged anything of value was pre & post war, or essentially pre stainless. Unless the culture changes dramatically towards carbon, we likely won’t see a change in the demand for more price points from western makers anytime soon.
> 
> I’m sure Broida could load our ears up with the drama of selling carbon to normies. [emoji23]


We aren't talking about factory production and with an assembly line, I think. I'm mostly referring to hand processed for the most part with obvious exceptions. Obviously very few are processing raw iron ore.

The hunting and EDC market is big in America at least so it's not as if there is NO knife market. If you think the average house wife or home cook in Japan is trying to decide between a Hide or a Heji you are kidding yourself. The $15 180mm general knife and the $10 cleaver will stand the test of time. High end knives mostly serve cooks, enthusiests, and rich people who like to impress others for a good hard on. [emoji41]


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## Chef Doom (Nov 3, 2018)

playero said:


> i have seen guys that mix their own steel and use even meteorite remains.



The world is flat. There are no meteorite remains. Wake up. Join the revolution. Fight the power. Don't become food for the Anunaki.

Heard it on Alex Jones.


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## Gregmega (Nov 4, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> We aren't talking about factory production and with an assembly line, I think. I'm mostly referring to hand processed for the most part with obvious exceptions. Obviously very few are processing raw iron ore.
> 
> The hunting and EDC market is big in America at least so it's not as if there is NO knife market. If you think the average house wife or home cook in Japan is trying to decide between a Hide or a Heji you are kidding yourself. The $15 180mm general knife and the $10 cleaver will stand the test of time. High end knives mostly serve cooks, enthusiests, and rich people who like to impress others for a good hard on. [emoji41]



I use the word production loosely, doesn’t necessarily mean ‘assembly line’ or mechanization. I do ‘productions’ for my company, it’s a craftsman in his studio building orders for my ‘production sheet’ in the same way the custom makers ‘produce’ to fulfill orders for say, jki or whatever. Or oem as the smarter folks here call it. 

I have no idea what house wives in Japan quibble over as far as knives go, but I’d bet dollars to donuts that their kits are better than the average Midwest knife block, simply by proxy to a vastly more nuanced food & food periphery culture. But I could also be Alex Jones blowing hot smoke out my tuchas. [emoji41]


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## Dan P. (Nov 4, 2018)

I think what is written in the quote below pretty much nails it, but to elaborate;

I know a guy in my "Western" country who can forge out in excess of 100 wood working chisels an hour. He also happens to HT and grind them himself, and puts the handles on, thought they are made elsewhere. He does this very fast and at a "production" price point that is competitive in the global market, and his tools are highly regarded, though they are sold through another company, under their name. He makes a very good living for himself.

Now, with a small investment in tooling, I could do the same, but I don't, for the simple reason that I don't have his market, and to be honest his market is not really open to me, for cultural & geographical reasons.

And I know another guy who similarly forges out woodworking tools, but in much smaller numbers which he sells direct, and he charges "high end" or "Western maker" prices.

I think the difference is the same as the difference between high volume Japanese production and Western makers. The economic slack gets picked up at different places, and any disparity in quality is kind of an anomaly that you have to live with.



Gregmega said:


> I think it has a lot to do with the basic culture surrounding the knife makers themselves- japan has a terrifically longer history activating the community to see those ends, and have effectively been able to create a commodity knife economy; while by and large, western makers are almost strictly custom. That alone says it all.
> 
> Besides Carter* and Kramer*, there aren’t many ‘makers’ doing large batch knives at commodity level (*not to say they are selling at commodity prices*), and as such own the market and demand the prices. Were someone good to come along and produce good to great knives at a more affordable price to disrupt their market, prices would surely be scrutinized if a large enough dent was made. Of course this would also mean you’d see the same range of knives, from amazing to terrible.
> 
> ...


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## playero (Nov 4, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> The world is flat. There are no meteorite remains. Wake up. Join the revolution. Fight the power. Don't become food for the Anunaki.
> 
> Heard it on Alex Jones.


Kramer knife in the tv program with the chef and the other that he made sold for over 30 thousand.I myself have a couple of watches with that metal.


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## XooMG (Nov 5, 2018)

playero said:


> Kramer knife in the tv program with the chef and the other that he made sold for over 30 thousand.I myself have a couple of watches with that metal.


Whoosh?


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## playero (Nov 5, 2018)

raw craft with Anthony Bourdain and Bob Kramer


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## Chef Doom (Nov 6, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> Here’s your answer. Time and quantity.
> 
> Now a master craftsman can work fast but that’s 10-15+ years of experience. For you to assume it takes 5 minutes to grind a blade obviously shows western makers have no idea of the Japanese grinding process, and assume forging is the only craft involved. There are at least 10-15 steps involved in grinding most blades. It all depends on the level of the blade and how it needs to be finished. Keep in mind I know more of the double bevel process and not of the single bevel.
> 
> ...



I completely agree with this assessment. Efficiency is a major factor in labor cost. Especially the difference in tools and machinery that is used in the process. This was a missing piece in the discussion.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 6, 2018)

RDalman said:


> I was very disappointed in my first japanese knife. It was a double bevel wa gyuto that was ground and finished in such a way it simply cut terribly. It took many hours at home with the stones to get it to "acceptable" level. It's where I'm coming from. It was not exorbitantly priced, but it wasnt a great experience either. I think and am happy to see people say, that western and japanese makers can coexist and fill different needs for the chefs and geeks.



Was it an Aritsugu gyuto? I heard those can be trouble upon first purchase. Not meant for immediate use out of the box.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 6, 2018)

playero said:


> Kramer knife in the tv program with the chef and the other that he made sold for over 30 thousand.I myself have a couple of watches with that metal.


No different than spending a million dollars on a Van Gogh forgery if you ask me. Probably made in some secret NASA or Russian Space facility pawned off as "Space Metal". Everything in that stuff appears on the periodic table.


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## RDalman (Nov 6, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> Was it an Aritsugu gyuto? I heard those can be trouble upon first purchase. Not meant for immediate use out of the box.



I don't want to call any maker out. It was a ~200 usd widebevel with the regular sandblasted finish. It was pretty sharp and thin on the edge, but wedgemonster-grind. From "apprentice-ville" 
Forging meteorite is a bit silly imo, since it looses it's characteristic pattern completely and looks pretty much like regular iron cladding or iron damascus. But i guess that can be something for the unscrupulous


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## daveb (Nov 6, 2018)

RDalman said:


> Forging meteorite is a bit silly imo, since it looses it's characteristic pattern completely and looks pretty much like regular iron cladding or iron damascus. But i guess that can be something for the unscrupulous



Nah, not unscrupulous at all. In the states we have an expression "sell the sizzle, not the steak".


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## Barmoley (Nov 6, 2018)

But, but , but, don't meteorites have magical powers? I have a friend whose cousin's wife's sister's husband heard of a friend who's brother met a guy who knows a chef who's apprentice's sister's boyfriend saw a knife made out of meteorite by a monk's father's uncle's grandfather's friend that never gets dull.....


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## Chef Doom (Nov 6, 2018)

daveb said:


> Nah, not unscrupulous at all. In the states we have an expression "sell the sizzle, not the steak".


[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] It's funny cause it's true!


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## panda (Nov 6, 2018)

meteorite will make ur bum itch


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## dough (Nov 7, 2018)

This whole thing just makes me think of joe dirt


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## Chef Doom (Nov 7, 2018)

LOL


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## playero (Dec 5, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> The world is flat. There are no meteorite remains. Wake up. Join the revolution. Fight the power. Don't become food for the Anunaki.
> 
> Heard it on Alex Jones.


have 3-4 watches with that dial. plus have remains of a ball size one still.


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## Kippington (Dec 5, 2018)

RDalman said:


> Forging meteorite is a bit silly imo, since it looses it's characteristic pattern completely and looks pretty much like regular iron cladding or iron damascus.



I totally agree.
Lets take something quite unique and beautiful, then *melt it* into the exact same stuff we dig outta the ground here on Earth.





For anyone interested, here's some random science:
Almost all elements (other than the smallest ones) are created inside stars - the factories of the universe - where energy is produced when smaller atoms are fused together into larger ones (_nuclear fusion_). If the star explodes, these elements are burped out across the cosmos, ready to create other things such as solar systems, living organisms and kitchen knives.

Iron is super interesting because it just so happens to be the last atom that gets fused together before a star begins to get colder. At this stage of a stars life, any element that is iron or larger will now take _*more* _energy to fuse in comparison to the energy it gives off, and _nobody_ wants to give out more energy than they have to! This means there's a hell of a lot of iron out there in the universe. A good example is our planet: Made outta stuff from previous generations of stars, Earth's most common element by mass is iron.

So knowing all this, making stuff out of meteorites that come in from space seems less impressive. But I guess it's still more interesting than saying you made it out of dirt from the ground.


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## McMan (Dec 5, 2018)

"We are stardust":


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## Nemo (Dec 5, 2018)

It's intersting to note:

Iron is the natural (lowest energy/ highest entropy) state of matter.

Carbon is the element that forms the backbone of complex molecules that allow life.

And in a way, carbon brings iron to life (albeit in a way that is completely different to how it works in living creatures).

It's also worth noting that most stars (including ours) can only make helium. All of the heavier elements in the universe (including C, N, O and indeed Fe) are made in rare supermassive stars or when massive stars explode in a supernova.


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## Kippington (Dec 5, 2018)

Nemo said:


> It's also worth noting that most stars (including ours) can only make helium. All of the heavier elements in the universe (including C, N, O and indeed Fe) are made in rare supermassive stars or when massive stars explode in a supernova.


It's cool to think that we can't even begin to imagine the size of the behemoths that fused heavy elements such as uranium (92) for us to exist as we do today, while our star can only count to 2!


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## XooMG (Dec 6, 2018)

Kippington said:


> It's cool to think that we can't even begin to imagine the size of the behemoths that fused heavy elements such as uranium (92) for us to exist as we do today, while our star can only count to 2!


Only supernovae and more massive events can produce the heavier elements; regular stellar synthesis stops at iron.


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## Kippington (Dec 6, 2018)

Are you saying supernovae dont come from stars?


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## Chef Doom (Dec 6, 2018)

All I'm hearing are science base fairy tails. None of this stuff can be proven with any real testing.


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## daveb (Dec 6, 2018)

This thread boldly goes where no thread has gone before....


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## Lazyboy (Dec 7, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> All I'm hearing are science base fairy tails. None of this stuff can be proven with any real testing.



Fairies have tails? I've been misinformed all this time. I thought they had wings. As for testing Reals, what's Brazilian currency got to do with supernovae?


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## Vils (Dec 7, 2018)

Nice periodic tabletter with the origin of the elements made by Jenifer A Johnson


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## Chef Doom (Dec 7, 2018)

daveb said:


> This thread boldly goes where no thread has gone before....


Chef's log: VG10.1.5.0

We managed to take back the kitchen from the Guy Fieri pirate band, making food safe once again.


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## Chef Doom (Dec 7, 2018)

Lazyboy said:


> Fairies have tails? I've been misinformed all this time. I thought they had wings. As for testing Reals, what's Brazilian currency got to do with supernovae?


The tails help them navigate.

There is big money in getting theory. Brazil is part of the illuminate.


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## Anton (Dec 7, 2018)

Vils said:


> Nice periodic tabletter with the origin of the elements made by Jenifer A Johnson



humans probably a fart of a fart 
we are so little


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## Tim Rowland (Dec 7, 2018)

This thread took a weird turn. i was enjoying all the east vs. west banter and then it turned into solar farts and unicorn breast milk, what gives?


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## Nemo (Dec 7, 2018)

I have started a new thread to try to get this train back on track:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/index.php?threads/39481/


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## Viggetorr (Dec 8, 2018)

Thanks Nemo! 

On topic: awaiting my first western maker knife the next week, a Raquin workhorse. Will be very intersting to see how it compares to my jknives!


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## playero (Dec 8, 2018)

meanwhile lets go back to western knives vs german knives vs japanese knives
in a couple of years we are going to have Korea vietnam pakistan and china also in the equation


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## F-Flash (Dec 8, 2018)

What about aussies? They aint from west, but Make one of The best knives out There.


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## Migraine (Dec 8, 2018)

If you go far enough West you get there eventually.


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## panda (Dec 8, 2018)

who gonna buy the first african knife? made from rhino dung and ivory scales.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 8, 2018)

milkbaby said:


> The western makers OP is asking about tend to make sole authorship knives with very high fit and finish. Basically one person does every job needed to make the knife from forging, grinding, to making the handles. Many of the Japanese bladesmiths (not all) are using prelaminated san mai whereas many of the western makers are forging their own, for example Joe/Halcyon Forge has been laminating wrought iron to carbon steel as seen in the pic above. You can't buy that prelaminated from Hitachi, it has to be made.
> 
> I believe most of the Japanese bladesmiths mentioned work in a small workshop setting, where there are multiple people working on the knives. For example, the bladesmith may forge out the knives but there may be a separate worker that cleans up the profile, a sharpener that grinds the blade, and yet another person who installs the handles. Or even multiple people doing these jobs. The handles are often bought from an outside handle factory and merely installed.



Not completely true. Halcyon uses prelaminated bar stock, maybe not exclusively but certainly a large proportion of his output, including Hitachi AS although its sourcing maybe circuitous.


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## valgard (Dec 8, 2018)

His AS is pre laminated, most of his stuff he laminates himself.


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## Chef Doom (Dec 9, 2018)

playero said:


> meanwhile lets go back to western knives vs german knives vs japanese knives
> in a couple of years we are going to have Korea vietnam pakistan and china also in the equation


If it hasn't happened by now, I doubt it will in the near future.


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## Chef Doom (Dec 9, 2018)

panda said:


> who gonna buy the first african knife? made from rhino dung and ivory scales.


They will be diamond dusted only to have them confiscated by customs for fear of too many diamonds flooding the market causing the poor masses to realize how worthless their jewelry really is.


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## Dan P. (Dec 9, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> I would say a master grinder with an apprentice can at least fully grind 500 mid to high level knives a month.





RDalman said:


> 500 mid to high level knives per month come to about three per hour with a 40 hour week.



I could probably grind 500 knives a month, and I could forge as many, too, but not in the same month! Obviously one always aspires to perfection, in the knowledge that it is unattainable, but in essence it's not rocket science. You just need the right tools and a modicum of horse sense.
But, being a solo maker, I am doing the whole process by myself, and I am therefore not doing 500 of any one thing in a month. I would be doing;

In the forge;
Billet prep
Forging
Clipping
Straightening
HT

At the grinding station;
Profiling
Grinding
Glazing
Buffing
Maybe etching or other surface treatments.

At the bench;
Handle block prep
Handle fitting
Handle shaping
Handle finishing

And finally;
Sharpening
General QC/snagging

So, divide your 500 knives a month by all those tasks (ignoring the fact that they all take widely disparate amounts of time), and you have a figure that comes closer to a common solo Western maker's target of a knife a day. I know some might make more and some make many fewer, according to their capacity and of course what it is they are making.

Another factor I touched on before is having a market for your product. A long established knife making concern in any country will have built up a customer base, retail or wholesale, that makes 500 plus knives a month a viable target. If I got a bunch of my buddies together and we pumped out 500 knives a month, where is our market going to spring from, even (or especially??) if our knives were retailing at a notional "mid-range" Japanese knife price point of, say, £200?

And to briefly touch upon pricing, it is a tricky subject because I know that, for instance, my overheads are probably going to be a good deal lower than those of a knifemaker in the US, and then there is the question of special materials and so on, so it makes it hard to compare. But, the higher end Japanese knives are not cheap, so I think, in the end, we are comparing things that are more alike than they at first appear?

Just my rambling thoughts on this dreary Sunday evening.


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## playero (Dec 11, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> If it hasn't happened by now, I doubt it will in the near future.


you already have pakistan and afg, thru etsy, they may say it's from Canada but when you receive the package it says from the country. the chinese you have them adverstizing in FB and others there are some note here where it is mentioned that product does not say made in china or the metal is from japan etc.


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## Ruso (Dec 11, 2018)

If Chinese makers are slowly creeping into mid-high end folders marker I do not see why would not they explore similar markets aka kitchen knifes in near future. It’s not like they don’t know how to forge or grind or market or work many hours or make money....


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## Chef Doom (Dec 11, 2018)

playero said:


> you already have pakistan and afg, thru etsy, they may say it's from Canada but when you receive the package it says from the country. the chinese you have them adverstizing in FB and others there are some note here where it is mentioned that product does not say made in china or the metal is from japan etc.


I can't think of any reasonable people that actually seek out and use these knives with the exception of a wallet friendly Chinese cleaver which I will always recommend.


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## Ruso (Dec 11, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> I can't think of any reasonable people that actually seek out and use these knives with the exception of a wallet friendly Chinese cleaver which I will always recommend.


Give it time.


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## alterwisser (Dec 12, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> I can't think of any reasonable people that actually seek out and use these knives with the exception of a wallet friendly Chinese cleaver which I will always recommend.



That's the same what people used to say about Japanese cars. Just saying ...


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## playero (Dec 12, 2018)

Please check KAMIKOTO knives. there are a lot of mentions in the forum and are made in China. remember China is the world largest steel manufacturer


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## Nemo (Dec 12, 2018)

playero said:


> Please check KAMIKOTO knives. there are a lot of mentions in the forum and are made in China. remember China is the world largest steel manufacturer


I seem to recall a thread about these....

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/index.php?threads/37046/


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## parbaked (Dec 12, 2018)

https://www.misen.co
Made outside of Shanghai but claim to use imported Japanese steel.


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## playero (Feb 13, 2019)

Chef Doom said:


> The world is flat. There are no meteorite remains. Wake up. Join the revolution. Fight the power. Don't become food for the Anunaki.
> 
> Heard it on Alex Jones.



Check HHH post on knife from meteorite metal. Their work is outstanding and when finished I don’t think there will be any equal


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## Chicagohawkie (Feb 14, 2019)

For me the Japanese stuff is getting boring. Wayyyyy to much automation and prelaminated production line stuff. 2019 will be turn to a few custom makers that are forge welding knives, no stock removal knives.


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## Cyrilix (Feb 14, 2019)

Ruso said:


> If Chinese makers are slowly creeping into mid-high end folders marker I do not see why would not they explore similar markets aka kitchen knifes in near future. It’s not like they don’t know how to forge or grind or market or work many hours or make money....



The Chinese makers will get there if there is a substantial home market for it. I would imagine there are Chinese smiths doing similar things in certain local circles that probably are simply not known to us. As the market expands and people have more discretionary income, this also allows all of these hobbies to start forming.


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## playero (Feb 14, 2019)

panda said:


> who gonna buy the first african knife? made from rhino dung and ivory scales.


africa is big in diamonds so teh knife would be with diamonds


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## panda (Feb 14, 2019)

playero said:


> africa is big in diamonds so teh knife would be with diamonds


do you know de wey?


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## ACHiPo (Feb 14, 2019)

playero said:


> africa is big in diamonds so teh knife would be with diamonds


And gold. And niobium. Platinum. Cobalt...


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## MrHiggins (Feb 14, 2019)

Chicagohawkie said:


> For me the Japanese stuff is getting boring. Wayyyyy to much automation and prelaminated production line stuff. 2019 will be turn to a few custom makers that are forge welding knives, no stock removal knives.


I'm with you. Have you seen Shi-Han's new laminated W2 line? Lookin' good!


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## Jason183 (Jan 16, 2022)

I used to be a J-Knife ONLY fan, but TBH I’m also a western makers fan now. 
I have tried 20+ different Brand J-knives over the past 3 years some are Excellent, some were just okay quality.

I’ve only tried 2 western makers knives so far, but both made it into my top 3 gyuto of all time list. They are also very serious at making top quality knives. Highly recommend for those who only wanted to try J-knives in the past liked me to go ahead exploring the western makers knives world that are highly recommended on this forum, it won’t go wrong.


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