# non-japanese santoku angle?



## FireDragon76 (Dec 20, 2015)

What is the proper angle to sharpen an inexpensive, German steel santoku such as Faberware or Tramontina? I've seen people on TV sharpening them with ordinary knife sharpeners for western knives... is there anything special about the grind on these knives?


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## Smurfmacaw (Dec 20, 2015)

Henkels recommends 20 degrees per side for their knives.


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## toddnmd (Dec 21, 2015)

FireDragon76 said:


> What is the proper angle to sharpen an inexpensive, German steel santoku such as Faberware or Tramontina? I've seen people on TV sharpening them with ordinary knife sharpeners for western knives... is there anything special about the grind on these knives?



I don't think so. I think the sharpening angle depends more on type of steel and geometry, and I'd agree somewhere in the 20-25 degree range would be fine. Having a santoku is mostly about the profile/blade shape. 

I've never handled a Tramontina, but have heard they might be decent. If the steel is harder, it could probably take a more acute edge.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Dec 21, 2015)

toddnmd said:


> I've never handled a Tramontina, but have heard they might be decent. If the steel is harder, it could probably take a more acute edge.



I doubt they are harder than the Henckels. If you are going for stainless steel and the price is right, i recommend the Century line. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tramontina-...hash=item1a09cd541f:m:mst2clcDqmcTfA3XL6kTQpA

A KKF'r once told me he would rather get a Victorinox due to its price point (and according to him Victorinox using a harder steel), but for those living in Brazil, import taxes usually make Victorinox's price too high for its quality.

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...knife-set-ever?highlight=best+cheap+knife+set


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## gic (Dec 21, 2015)

Why not do 15 with a microbevel at 20? That seems to work for most soft steels I fix for friends...


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 21, 2015)

I have a 6 1/2" Kiwi veggie cleaver that's shaped like a nakiri or small Chinese chef knife. I've been using it this past week and stropping it on leather occasionally. The steel seems fairly soft as sometimes I notice the edge rolling over. What would be a good angle to sharpen these at? I've been stropping around 15-20 degrees.

I'm thinking about getting an Ozitech diamond fingers sharpener and it's about 20 degrees. I have a Victorinox smooth steel on order, and I have a strop loaded with metal polish on one side. If my knives need more sharpening than that, I plan to just buy new knives as they are so cheap.


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## psfred (Dec 21, 2015)

20 degrees per side is probably what it was originally sharpened, so that's a good place to start. Most of the inexpensive knives I've looked over are VERY thick behind the edge, so re-grinding a bevel different that the original is going to take some time (or a belt sander -- I eventually used a bench grinder with a fine stone for one cheap knife). 

Easy enough to find with a stone -- lay the blade on the stone at a low enough angle you KNOW you are not at the edge gently sweep the blade edge first across the stone. Repeat, raising the spine a bit each time, until you hear the sound change, it's pretty much unmistakeable. That change in sound means the edge is not in contact with the stone, and the angle the blade forms is the original sharpening angle. I've seen them as high as 45 degrees per side....

Peter


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## daveb (Dec 21, 2015)

I've had the "opportunity" to sharpen a few Faberware knives and will suggest that time spent on them is pointless. Fat, soft, crap knives, any edge that can be put on them will not survive the first encounter with a carrot. Don't know the Tram... but suspect it is of similar vein. If you want to give it a go, suggest a manual pull thru sharpener will suffice.

Don't know if Wusthof is available to you but their new "Pro" line was launched to compete with Vnox and I like them. (Did I say that out loud?) They're quite thin and readily take a pretty good edge. The 8in chef is promotion priced at 20 bucks and I gifting four of them to folks who simply won't take care of knives.


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 22, 2015)

So it seems the consensus is that the ubiquitous santokus have the profile of Japanese knives but the blades are not particularly hard.

I've tended to gravitate towards santoku and inexpensive Asian choppers because I don't have particularly good knife skills. Being gluten intolerant, stir-frying is probably 2/3 of my diet, so I wanted to find a way to get more vegetables in my diet (there's only so much variety in frozen veggies in average American grocery). I learned how to use a French-style chef knife in home ec in highschool (I took a whole year of it) but I've never been particularly comfortable with them, they always seemed like big, heavy knives that aren't as easy to do precise cuts unless you "feed" them.


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 22, 2015)

Assuming normal home kitchen use, when I sharpen a knife, how often would I have to reshape or thin the grind, and not just sharpen the bevel on the blade?


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## Mrmnms (Dec 22, 2015)

I've sharpened enough Faberware Santoku knives to believe that they won't hold a decent edge for more than a few days. I've thinned them, both on belts and stone before putting an approx 20 degree bevel on them. Thinning them to achieve a better profile is a lot of effort for little improvement. There are reasonably price options available new and used that won't break the bank.


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## psfred (Dec 23, 2015)

Rather than battle the cheap stuff (and the best of it is probably Tramontina or Victorinox, not Farberware), I'd save my pennies and get a Tojiro DP in the style you like.

It's a bit more expensive, but not that bad, and at least you will have a knife that can take and hold a good edge. Far better than attempting to polish a lump of fecal matter.

Peter


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 28, 2015)

I'm thinking about buying some stones to learn to sharpen freehand. Fooling around with the santoku that I've resigned to beater status, I actually improved the blade by sharpening it on the bottom of a coffee cup at a very shallow angle (maybe 10 degrees). So I think I could learn how to sharpen with a stone.

The local Asian grocery has a lot of Japanese and Chinese stones for a few bucks. I think I will pick up a few. But they are all coarse grit. So I think I'll want to also get a dual stone, maybe 1000/8000 grit. I checked the local Harbor Freight and all they had were really coarse stones that were in poor shape. I'm not sure how sharp I should get my knives. I like the sharpness of the Kiwi knife, a dull knife actually makes me more nervous to cook with. I chop slow so there's no speed advantage, it just gives me more control.

I think I'd like to get into carbon steel blades, just because they are easier to sharpen, the steel is harder, and they develop a patina, which probably covers up a lot of uneven sharpening strokes. I have been looking for carbon steel Chinese chef knives, since I think those would be relatively easy to sharpen in their profile, but it seems that stainless steel ones are more common and cheaper.


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## psfred (Dec 28, 2015)

Free-handing on stones isn't a terribly difficult skill to learn, although some of us will be better than others as always, and you may eventually not want the mess, etc.

However, for an inexpensive entry to the craft, a King 1000/6000 combination stone, something hard and flat like a tile from Home Depot, and some drywall sanding screen will let you try it out for less than $50. I'm not a fan of the mid range King stone, but they work well enough for knives and are cheap enough you won't feel ripped off if free-hand doesn't work for you. Not suited for extensive thinning or "rescuing" junk stainless, but for decent quality knives will do fine.

Look at Tojiro DP or Fujiwara FKM for entry level Japanese knives, again they are not expensive as Japanese knives go, but are good enough you will appreciate them in use, I certainly do.

Peter


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 30, 2015)

One big issue is not taking up too much space. I live in a 700 square foot apartment and I already have a lot of stuff. Plus, I'm finding drying out the whetstone is tedious as I have to place it somewhere for several hours (it seemed to take all night to dry).


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 30, 2015)

I think with the Faberware santoku an issue might be that the shinogi line is too much towards the blade edge. That seems to fit the cutting characteristics of the knife . It's fine for cutting up chicken thighs and pork loins, but not very good at chopping. My Kiwi nakiri and most Chinese chef knives I have seen are all relatively thin and not so wedge shaped

The Tramontina santoku I have does not have a shinogi at all. It's a thin wedge with a bevel ground into the blade at the bottom.


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## FireDragon76 (Dec 30, 2015)

I had some luck today thinning the blade on the santoku. Mr.M's is right, however... if not for desiring to practice on a stone, I don't think this would be worth my time. It's not a well designed knife. But it's usable now to cut vegetables and meat.

It's a big hassle to keep the stone wet.


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## Bolek (Dec 31, 2015)

For the begining stay with a 1200 grit. Going finer than 2000 can wait until you learn more about sharpening.


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## FireDragon76 (Jan 6, 2016)

After experimenting with the faberware knife further... it seems to me this is really a meat slicing knife (for slicing up chicken or beef), it's not nearly as good as a vegetable cleaver. At one time I think this sort of knife would have been "ok" to use, but I guess the Kiwi cleaver has spoiled me. So that's what I've been using the Faberware santoku for. But there are probably santoku out there that are actually better at chopping.


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## FireDragon76 (Jan 9, 2016)

The Faberware makes an OK meat slicing knife, that's what I'm using it for now. I keep a second-hand Chicago Cutlery steel next to the knife block I keep it in, and it's my go-to meat knife. I use it as a beater for working around bones.


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