# TF or Toyama: The Review



## lemeneid

To get some background on this, read this thread.





TF or Watanabe?


After doing some research I’ve narrowed down my search to these two knives. I’m looking for a new 240 gyuto and am narrowing it down to these two. Anyone owns both and can offer opinions on it? I’m using a Mazaki Ku 210 now which is great but I’m looking for something longer now. It’s got to...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com





Some TL;DR, I was comparing between both knives few years ago. Now I've ended up with the highest end of both.

Bear in mind, these two are not your off the shelf TF Denka or Toyama honyaki either. The TF Denka I bought in 2019 while in Japan directly from TF, the last produced Western TF Denka I know of to date and customised to my preferences as it was only a knife blank when I saw it. The Toyama honyaki was purchased 2019 from sharpening god Lee, who thinned it to make it even more amazing. So these are knives at the peak of their maker's craft.

So here the are, both knives in action on some mirepoix. With a cameo from a cheapass beater. I'll let you guys come to a conclusion to which one you like better. For me, I like them both, but I definitely reach for my TF more often as it is so much more fun to use.


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## daveb

Another carrot thread!  

Thanks for posting.


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## friz

You are probably too nervous when you are cutting.
I prefer Toyama over TF, even though the edge is that thin it is more prone to chipping. (based on my experience)


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## friz

Sorry the Toyama is Honyaki, I only experienced the non honyaki version. i retract what I said about chipping cause I don't know how the Toyama Honyaki feels. Can't go wrong with either anyway, both great cutters!!


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## lemeneid

friz said:


> Sorry the Toyama is Honyaki, I only experienced the non honyaki version. i retract what I said about chipping cause I don't know how the Toyama Honyaki feels. Can't go wrong with either anyway, both great cutters!!


The honyaki is a really stiff knife, even more than the sanmai. Its a chip monster, even on my hasegawa boards. The TF on the other hand, is ground even thinner and suffers no such problems. Thats the big difference in heat treat between the two. The Denka just sharpens up real buttery while the Toyama is a pain in the ass in comparison.


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## Corradobrit1

Is the Wat W#2 honyaki or blue steel?


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## lemeneid

Corradobrit1 said:


> Is the Wat W#2 honyaki or blue steel?


Its blue#2 and awfully pain in the ass to sharpen, or at least i don't like the way it sharpens.


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## Corradobrit1

lemeneid said:


> Its blue#2 and awfully pain in the ass to sharpen, or at least i don't like the way it sharpens.


Yeah that makes sense now. Denka AS is a real pleasure to sharpen on the stones.


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## friz

Have you tried with a micro bevel?


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## panda

hated wat/toyama steel, i imagine honyaki would be even worse, lol.


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## lemeneid

friz said:


> Have you tried with a micro bevel?


To reduce the chipping? Yes i have, but it also decreases the performance of the knife a little. all my knives don't have microbevels and don't chip, except my Wats and Katos


panda said:


> hated wat/toyama steel, i imagine honyaki would be even worse, lol.


Yeah, such a joy to use, but such a pain in the ass to sharpen.


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## friz

Do you really have chipping on katos? never happened to me.


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## labor of love

All my older Katos pre augami chipped. Don’t know if that’s relevant or not.


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## lemeneid

friz said:


> Do you really have chipping on katos? never happened to me.


Yeah, don't like my Katos precisely for this reason.


labor of love said:


> All my older Katos pre augami chipped. Don’t know if that’s relevant or not.


Mine are both blue steel 210 std and 240 Ku


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## friz

You got blades which chips easily and afraid of using them. just sell them to me, I am not picky


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## lemeneid

Haha nice try, not selling my knives. Unless I'm offered a nice price for them.


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## Corradobrit1

lemeneid said:


> Haha nice try, not selling my knives. Unless I'm offered a nice price for them.


GLWS


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## M1k3

lemeneid said:


> Haha nice try, not selling my knives. Unless I'm offered a nice price for them.



Would you take a couple of pictures printed off my cheap printer of B*tchface-san in trade?


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## BillHanna

M1k3 said:


> Would you take a couple of pictures printed off my cheap printer of B*tchface-san in trade?


I want to print a t-shirt with his face on it, but it would be lost on those around me.


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## lemeneid

BillHanna said:


> I want to print a t-shirt with his face on it, but it would be lost on those around me.


We should do a mass order of these and make them the unofficial KKF shirt.

Lol, can we get back on topic guys.


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## daveb

There's a topic?

Pray tell......


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## M1k3

lemeneid said:


> We should do a mass order of these and make them the unofficial KKF shirt.
> 
> Lol, can we get back on topic guys.



My good sir, what pray tell are you trying to say? Stay on topic? How preposterous!


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## lemeneid

daveb said:


> There's a topic?
> 
> Pray tell......





M1k3 said:


> My good sir, what pray tell are you trying to say? Stay on topic? How preposterous!


Fine have it your way...


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## TSF415

lemeneid said:


> Fine have it your way...
> 
> View attachment 78785


Is that the slogan on the back of the shirt? Or on the front? What side is his face going on?

But damnit now I'm actually angry at myself for not swooping up that Denka when I saw it a moment after it was posted last night.


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## lemeneid

That Denka looked mint from the pictures at least. Even a bad Denka is better than most knives I have, case in point, I have a Denka petty that’s pretty fat, but cuts far better than many of my lasers, and with food release to boot!


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## J.C

Tbh, im not a fan of toyama as well.
Have you use a watanabe? And compare it to toyama and denka?


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## M1k3

Supposedly...


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## lemeneid

J.C said:


> Tbh, im not a fan of toyama as well.
> Have you use a watanabe? And compare it to toyama and denka?


Don’t get me wrong, I love my Toyama, but I just don’t love the way it sharpens, 
Don’t own one but I’ve got a borrowed Wat Pro iron clad from a pro chef. It’s very similar to the Toyama but it’s a little chunkier. I’ve heard the iron clad for the Toyama and Wat are very similar, but the Toyamas are a little thinner.


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## J.C

lemeneid said:


> Don’t get me wrong, I love my Toyama, but I just don’t love the way it sharpens,
> Don’t own one but I’ve got a borrowed Wat Pro iron clad from a pro chef. It’s very similar to the Toyama but it’s a little chunkier. I’ve heard the iron clad for the Toyama and Wat are very similar, but the Toyamas are a little thinner.


I personally enjoy using my maboroshi more than stainless clad toyama. It performs better and sharpen easier than the toyama steel.
But im getting a KU iron clad wat (which is totally different breed than the migaki version) pretty soon, i will see how it perform compare to maboroshi.


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## Matus

Wait, you just sharpen your knives by following the geometry without any micro-bevel? Of course they must microchip. I can not say anything on TF vs Toyama as I have never used a TF, but unless the knife is sharpened in a sensible way it is hard to draw some usable conclusions.


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## nyc

lemeneid said:


> To get some background on this, read this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TF or Watanabe?
> 
> 
> After doing some research I’ve narrowed down my search to these two knives. I’m looking for a new 240 gyuto and am narrowing it down to these two. Anyone owns both and can offer opinions on it? I’m using a Mazaki Ku 210 now which is great but I’m looking for something longer now. It’s got to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some TL;DR, I was comparing between both knives few years ago. Now I've ended up with the highest end of both.
> 
> Bear in mind, these two are not your off the shelf TF Denka or Toyama honyaki either. The TF Denka I bought in 2019 while in Japan directly from TF, the last produced Western TF Denka I know of to date and customised to my preferences as it was only a knife blank when I saw it. The Toyama honyaki was purchased 2019 from sharpening god Lee, who thinned it to make it even more amazing. So these are knives at the peak of their maker's craft.
> 
> So here the are, both knives in action on some mirepoix. With a cameo from a cheapass beater. I'll let you guys come to a conclusion to which one you like better. For me, I like them both, but I definitely reach for my TF more often as it is so much more fun to use.




what’s your opinion on the TF finger rest? any significant advantage over the Toyama or your other gyutos in terms of grip and usage?


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## Runner_up

nyc said:


> what’s your opinion on the TF finger rest? any significant advantage over the Toyama or your other gyutos in terms of grip and usage?




I used to be resistant to the finger notch. I now have two (soon to be three) knives with it from TF. Frankly I love it. Very comfortable and allows you to really move your grip forward if you so choose.


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## panda

nyc said:


> what’s your opinion on the TF finger rest? any significant advantage over the Toyama or your other gyutos in terms of grip and usage?


Unless you have tiny fingers, the notch is too small to be of any use.


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## ma_sha1

The finger does not need to go all the way in, just a bit extra room on a shot neck gyuto is all that’s needed. The notch allows a reduced neck gyuto to function as a long neck in terms of finger space, but it allows hand position slightly forward on the blade, which increases leverage, reduces down force needed during cutting. 

My Toyama has a short neck, hurt my finger with my grip style (Death grip by the neck) where I try squeeze my finger in between heel & handle. After I made a TF finger notch, smaller than the one on TF, Toyama now fits perfect, no more finger pain.


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## panda

ma_sha1 said:


> The finger does not need to go all the way in,


LMFAO


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## ma_sha1

panda said:


> LMFAO



Dirty Panda


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## panda

Lolz


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## lemeneid

Matus said:


> Wait, you just sharpen your knives by following the geometry without any micro-bevel? Of course they must microchip. I can not say anything on TF vs Toyama as I have never used a TF, but unless the knife is sharpened in a sensible way it is hard to draw some usable conclusions.


Nope, no microbevel, never needed one as my knives never chipped, until I got my Toyama and Kato. Those are the only two that micro chip among all the knives I have.


nyc said:


> what’s your opinion on the TF finger rest? any significant advantage over the Toyama or your other gyutos in terms of grip and usage?


Love the finger notch. I had a conversation with Kippington about putting a finger notch on one of his custom knives for me and he was adamant you don't do it on Wa handle knives, and I do understand why. I can see how it would work on a Western vs Wa handle, and I think for most people here, their experience with knives is with Wa, but if you tried western with and without finger notch, its very different. If the handle is heavy like in western handle knives, bringing your fingers more blade forward actually balances the knife better if that makes sense. Also, my notch is eased so its quite comfortable to grip in that position.


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## ian

lemeneid said:


> I had a conversation with Kippington about putting a finger notch on one of his custom knives for me and he was adamant you don't do it on Wa handle knives, and I do understand why.



I don’t understand. What’s the point? It seems to me that you’d want to bring your hand forward more if you had a very blade heavy knife, to balance it more. So, it would seem to make more sense with a wa handle than with a heavier western.

Btw, where are your western TFs balanced? Are they actually handle heavy?

Edit: oh, maybe the point is less about the weight distribution, and more about the fact that with most westerns, the handle comes really close to the choil. Wa handled knives have more of a neck, so a notch isn’t needed.


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## lemeneid

ian said:


> I don’t understand. What’s the point? It seems to me that you’d want to bring your hand forward more if you had a very blade heavy knife, to balance it more. So, it would seem to make more sense with a wa handle than with a heavier western.
> 
> Btw, where are your western TFs balanced? Are they actually handle heavy?
> 
> Edit: oh, maybe the point is less about the weight distribution, and more about the fact that with most westerns, the handle comes really close to the choil. Wa handled knives have more of a neck, so a notch isn’t needed.


I have 2 western 240s, a Maboroshi and a Denka. The Maboroshi weighs 225g while the Denka weighs 253g with length and height identical. Balance point for both is right on the 作 kanji. So I suspect they might shave off or add weight to the tang to make the knives balanced this way while the pinch grip is there so you can put your fingers right above that spot. If the notch was not there, your fingers wouldn't be able to sit on the balance point of the knife, or it would be very awkward doing so.

I don't have a Wa, so I can't comment on how the finger notch is supposed to work there. But I guess, the idea is the same, they will either add or shave off weight at the tang to make it balanced.


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## panda

Mario's fingernotch is actually useful as it is big and gradual, not look like they just used a small drill press and sanded it down..


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## Barmoley

ian said:


> Edit: oh, maybe the point is less about the weight distribution, and more about the fact that with most westerns, the handle comes really close to the choil. Wa handled knives have more of a neck, so a notch isn’t needed.



Exactly.

The finger notch on a western handled Denka is actually more useful than I thought it would be. It definitely improves the feel of the knife in pinch grip for me. It makes the western feel more like WA by functionally increasing the length of the neck. On WA it doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless the neck is really short, but on WA that is easy to control so why make a short neck in the first place.


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## Corradobrit1

A finger notch on a Western handle makes total sense when you pick it up and hold in the pinch grip. I also like the aesthetic.


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## nyc

lemeneid said:


> I have 2 western 240s, a Maboroshi and a Denka. The Maboroshi weighs 225g while the Denka weighs 253g with length and height identical. Balance point for both is right on the 作 kanji. So I suspect they might shave off or add weight to the tang to make the knives balanced this way while the pinch grip is there so you can put your fingers right above that spot. If the notch was not there, your fingers wouldn't be able to sit on the balance point of the knife, or it would be very awkward doing so.
> 
> I don't have a Wa, so I can't comment on how the finger notch is supposed to work there. But I guess, the idea is the same, they will either add or shave off weight at the tang to make it balanced.


Are the finger notches on your Denka and Maboroshi (about) the same size? I’m just curious if TF works on some sort of standard (size) when they create one.


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## lemeneid

nyc said:


> Are the finger notches on your Denka and Maboroshi (about) the same size? I’m just curious if TF works on some sort of standard when they create one.


It is the same size, but I'm pretty sure it can be cut to make bigger if your fingers are larger.


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## DavidPF

lemeneid said:


> ... the Toyama is a pain in the ass in comparison.





lemeneid said:


> Its blue#2 and awfully pain in the ass to sharpen, ...





lemeneid said:


> Yeah, such a joy to use, but such a pain in the ass to sharpen.


I think maybe you're holding it wrong.


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## M1k3

DavidPF said:


> I think maybe you're holding it wrong.


Steve Jobs, is that you?


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## shinyunggyun

What if you pitted the regular blue #2 iron clad Toyama gyuto against a regular white #1 TF Maboroshi gyuto?


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## tcmx3

shinyunggyun said:


> What if you pitted the regular blue #2 iron clad Toyama gyuto against a regular white #1 TF Maboroshi gyuto?



out of the box or after I spent 10 hours thinning the latter?


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## M1k3

shinyunggyun said:


> What if you pitted the regular blue #2 iron clad Toyama gyuto against a regular white #1 TF Maboroshi gyuto?


WA or Yo handled Mab? (Please say Yo so we can make fun of the handle scales, on top of all the other possibilities of issues you may OR may NOT run into with a TF)


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## shinyunggyun

tcmx3 said:


> out of the box or after I spent 10 hours thinning the latter?


Both out of the box, and how well they age.


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## shinyunggyun

M1k3 said:


> WA or Yo handled Mab? (Please say Yo so we can make fun of the handle scales, on top of all the other possibilities of issues you may OR may NOT run into with a TF)


Preferably way handle. But if all you experienced was yo handle, that works too.


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## tcmx3

shinyunggyun said:


> Both out of the box, and how well they age.



my one (1) Toyama is far, far better than any of the three (3) TF gyuto's Ive owned OotB. Im kind of... I mean I tried really hard with TF because despite what people seem to think I really dont think theyre bad. But one got sold here, the best one I gave to my dad who prefers yo handles, and one I have not started on just sitting in its box and will probably not get used TBH. on the other hand Toyama IMO is one of the best knives out there though I think f&f is a little low for the price compared to some other options, though obviously leagues better than TF.

I think they both cut well after I go to town on the bevels of the TF. TF is a very thin knife but has some convexity so it's a good cutter. my Toyama is a stainless clad knife and is ground a bit thicker but to me it's still a middle-weight and I prefer that sort of thing to really thin knives. YMMV.

I actually think TF heat treat is not ideal for white steel. too hard IME. IMO any of Tanaka, Togashi, Hinoura are way better to my taste but that's just my taste.

also Toyama charges a reasonable amount to jump from 210 to 240 and his 240 is a big knife; definitely in the same league as Kato, Shi.Han, etc. that I also really love. my TF experience has been limited to 210s because I actually just refuse to pay their 240 asking price.

anyway the short of it is I would give an unqualified, enthusiastic recommendation of Toyama and I think Im personally done with TF though it's not truly awful or anything.


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## shinyunggyun

tcmx3 said:


> my one (1) Toyama is far, far better than any of the three (3) TF gyuto's Ive owned OotB. Im kind of... I mean I tried really hard with TF because despite what people seem to think I really dont think theyre bad. But one got sold here, the best one I gave to my dad who prefers yo handles, and one I have not started on just sitting in its box and will probably not get used TBH. on the other hand Toyama IMO is one of the best knives out there though I think f&f is a little low for the price compared to some other options, though obviously leagues better than TF.
> 
> I think they both cut well after I go to town on the bevels of the TF. TF is a very thin knife but has some convexity so it's a good cutter. my Toyama is a stainless clad knife and is ground a bit thicker but to me it's still a middle-weight and I prefer that sort of thing to really thin knives. YMMV.
> 
> I actually think TF heat treat is not ideal for white steel. too hard IME. IMO any of Tanaka, Togashi, Hinoura are way better to my taste but that's just my taste.
> 
> also Toyama charges a reasonable amount to jump from 210 to 240 and his 240 is a big knife; definitely in the same league as Kato, Shi.Han, etc. that I also really love. my TF experience has been limited to 210s because I actually just refuse to pay their 240 asking price.
> 
> anyway the short of it is I would give an unqualified, enthusiastic recommendation of Toyama and I think Im personally done with TF though it's not truly awful or anything.


That's really good to know. Thank you for that review.


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## Hz_zzzzzz

shinyunggyun said:


> That's really good to know. Thank you for that review.


I've had 2 toyamas, 2 wats and 2 TFs. The TF morihei white 1 ss clad (Mab equivalent) was quite thin ootb so it cuts well. The Denka wedges ootb though. After some thinning the Mab becomes a stiffer laser but the denka is still substantial. But if I have to choose again I will definitely still get the denka because I like the steel more than the TF white 1. TF white 1 has amazing edge retention for a white steel and is easy to sharpen but it's a bit too chippy with 0 edge. 0.1 mm right behind the edge is about the minimal thinness it can take. Thinner than that it's gonna microchip. With denka you can go as low as 0.05 or less if you want.

If we just talk about the ootb performance, Toyanabe is consistently excellent. SS clad, iron clad or damascus, they are all great. Tbh the grind of Toyanabe makes me smile every single time after I switch back to it from other new knives (including denka). Everyone should try it, seriously. And I think the difference between newer ones and the older ones is exaggerated a bit here recently. I've tried 3 240 toyanabes that range from 210 gram to 250 gram from different years and they are all great. They are more similar than different. I also had a 270 gram Ku Wat which I think was not made by Toyama so it's different.


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## RockyBasel

These two knives are some of the best knives out there and saying which is better is kinda not fair.

they are different knives - Toyama has a thicker spine, defines the term WH, while my Denka (love it!!!! TFTF..) is thin, more like a scalpel, but definitely not a WH IMHO

of course, the weight will be determined by special handles, etc. I am talking both Wa handles here

My Wa (cheap ho wood) toyama Damascus comes in at 290 gm in the 270 mm version. This is a beast with a 61 mm heel

the 240 dammy comes in at 240- 250 gm and my Wa Denka is 205. 56-57 heel for the Toyama, a bit Higher than the Denka

Cutting performance is a joy with both. I can never decide which one I like better - but toyama a bit better for thicker, denser produce

I also have a 336 gm Honyaki Toyama- but have not Tried that yet - still staring at it


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## Jville

Obviously these two are like  and . The knifes that had the most similarity to the Toyama gyutos that I had were my Tansus workhorse grind. Toyama seems to have better edge retention. That blue steel is hard, but after that I preferred my Tansus. The Tansus were also silky on the stones, one was a blue2. Both knives were tall and seemed similiar in height and had similiar sturdiness of spine. My tansus seemed better through dense product and they both had similiar food release. My tansus have great distal taper with tips that fly through product. I sold all my toyama gyutos in favor of them. I ended up selling one of the Tansus also and just have the SC 125 left of the two. I did keep a 210 Toyama nakiri and that is one of my favorite knives.


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## Cliff

My Wats and Toyama have been better finished than my TF. But the TF, more on the workhorse side of things, was a great cutter right out of the box. It just needs some work to even out the bevels.

I have never had chipping with the Wats and Toyama, and they've all been a pleasure to sharpen.


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## RockyBasel

Jville said:


> Obviously these two are like  and . The knifes that had the most similarity to the Toyama gyutos that I had were my Tansus workhorse grind. Toyama seems to have better edge retention. That blue steel is hard, but after that I preferred my Tansus. The Tansus were also silky on the stones, one was a blue2. Both knives were tall and seemed similiar in height and had similiar sturdiness of spine. My tansus seemed better through dense product and they both had similiar food release. My tansus have great distal taper with tips that fly through product. I sold all my toyama gyutos in favor of them. I ended up selling one of the Tansus also and just have the SC 125 left of the two. I did keep a 210 Toyama nakiri and that is one of my favorite knives.


Same - that 210 Nakiri is Unstoppable


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## Cliff

RockyBasel said:


> Same - that 210 Nakiri is Unstoppable



Can you compare it in use to a 270 gyuto? I have been tempted a few times, but it seems redundant.


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## RockyBasel

Cliff said:


> Can you compare it in use to a 270 gyuto? I have been tempted a few times, but it seems redundant.


I will this weekend and share the findings.

But so you mean 270 SS, 270 Damascus, or 270 Honyaki?


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## Hz_zzzzzz

RockyBasel said:


> I will this weekend and share the findings.
> 
> But so you mean 270 SS, 270 Damascus, or 270 Honyaki?


bso man bso


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## RockyBasel

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> bso man bso


Bso? Not familiar with that one tbh


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## Hz_zzzzzz

RockyBasel said:


> Bso? Not familiar with that one tbh


Bloody Show Off!!!!


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## RockyBasel

could not resist getting that bso dig in there - you saw right through it


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## ModRQC

lemeneid said:


> To get some background on this, read this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TF or Watanabe?
> 
> 
> After doing some research I’ve narrowed down my search to these two knives. I’m looking for a new 240 gyuto and am narrowing it down to these two. Anyone owns both and can offer opinions on it? I’m using a Mazaki Ku 210 now which is great but I’m looking for something longer now. It’s got to...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some TL;DR, I was comparing between both knives few years ago. Now I've ended up with the highest end of both.
> 
> Bear in mind, these two are not your off the shelf TF Denka or Toyama honyaki either. The TF Denka I bought in 2019 while in Japan directly from TF, the last produced Western TF Denka I know of to date and customised to my preferences as it was only a knife blank when I saw it. The Toyama honyaki was purchased 2019 from sharpening god Lee, who thinned it to make it even more amazing. So these are knives at the peak of their maker's craft.
> 
> So here the are, both knives in action on some mirepoix. With a cameo from a cheapass beater. I'll let you guys come to a conclusion to which one you like better. For me, I like them both, but I definitely reach for my TF more often as it is so much more fun to use.




It's like, from looking at cutting performance, I'd grab the "cheapass beater".


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## lemeneid

ModRQC said:


> It's like, from looking at cutting performance, I'd grab the "cheapass beater".


Yes, I would recommend the cheapass beater any day. To be honest, if I had that as my only knife, I would be totally happy. But I do get absolutely annoyed by the food sticking, that would be my only complaint with it.


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## Cliff

RockyBasel said:


> I will this weekend and share the findings.
> 
> But so you mean 270 SS, 270 Damascus, or 270 Honyaki?



I'm most interested in the comparison to the 270 SS, but really all those comparisons are interesting. I've got a couple of heavy 270's, which I pick up when there is a big pile of work to do. Not sure how that Nakiri would fit.


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## ModRQC

lemeneid said:


> Yes, I would recommend the cheapass beater any day. To be honest, if I had that as my only knife, I would be totally happy. But I do get absolutely annoyed by the food sticking, that would be my only complaint with it.



What is it?

In your vid carrot planks stickeage was worse with it, but for the celery overall or carrot mince it didn’t seem worse off than the Toy or TF. We sadly didn’t see it at work with onions.


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## Cliff

If food sticking is the issue, I would use my Takeda all day. I can't say it is a big deal for me with Toyama or TF, though.


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## lemeneid

ModRQC said:


> What is it?
> 
> In your vid carrot planks stickeage was worse with it, but for the celery overall or carrot mince it didn’t seem worse off than the Toy or TF. We sadly didn’t see it at work with onions.


Its a Kikuichi Elite Carbon gyuto and my first Japanese knife. Just saw the prices now, and they're not priced as "cheapass beater" right now. I did pick mine up while I was in Japan at a fraction of the price. 

Still would wholeheartedly recommend it.


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## ModRQC

Yeah these are kindly more expensive than they ought to nowadays. Browsed some once upon a time.

Thank you very much sir!


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## johnvburke100

lemeneid said:


> To get some background on this, read this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TF or Watanabe?
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> After doing some research I’ve narrowed down my search to these two knives. I’m looking for a new 240 gyuto and am narrowing it down to these two. Anyone owns both and can offer opinions on it? I’m using a Mazaki Ku 210 now which is great but I’m looking for something longer now. It’s got to...
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> www.kitchenknifeforums.com
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> Some TL;DR, I was comparing between both knives few years ago. Now I've ended up with the highest end of both.
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> Bear in mind, these two are not your off the shelf TF Denka or Toyama honyaki either. The TF Denka I bought in 2019 while in Japan directly from TF, the last produced Western TF Denka I know of to date and customised to my preferences as it was only a knife blank when I saw it. The Toyama honyaki was purchased 2019 from sharpening god Lee, who thinned it to make it even more amazing. So these are knives at the peak of their maker's craft.
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> So here the are, both knives in action on some mirepoix. With a cameo from a cheapass beater. I'll let you guys come to a conclusion to which one you like better. For me, I like them both, but I definitely reach for my TF more often as it is so much more fun to use.



could you add a little detail about sharpening god Lee?


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## Sebastian Chrstiansson

Toyama for the win  
Dont have that problem whit chipping on my toyama/watanabe and the steel is just Amezing imho


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## ModRQC

Funny how it just struck me that these knives look more authoritarian with something like a cheap Ho handle on. That's just me... 

I do admit the KU one and the Nakiri as well are aptly fitted and more prominently "forward" than any, amongst all these indredibly nice handles.

Seeing a lot of love and some quite steady use into them though. That's saying something real positive of the blades themselves. 

Thanks for posting that picture it's amazing.


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## Mikeadunne

Sebastian Chrstiansson said:


> Toyama for the win
> Dont have that problem whit chipping on my toyama/watanabe and the steel is just Amezing imhoView attachment 197675
> View attachment 197676


damn, all those iron-clads have me hot and bothered


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## HumbleHomeCook

Sebastian Chrstiansson said:


> Toyama for the win
> Dont have that problem whit chipping on my toyama/watanabe and the steel is just Amezing imhoView attachment 197675
> View attachment 197676



I don't think I've seen a collection on KKF yet that has made me more envious. Thank you for sharing!


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## Sebastian Chrstiansson

ModRQC said:


> Funny how it just struck me that these knives look more authoritarian with something like a cheap Ho handle on. That's just me...
> 
> I do admit the KU one and the Nakiri as well are aptly fitted and more prominently "forward" than any, amongst all these indredibly nice handles.
> 
> Seeing a lot of love and some quite steady use into them though. That's saying something real positive of the blades themselves.
> 
> Thanks for posting that picture it's amazing.


I changed the handle to get a better balancepoint on the knifes whit Ho wood They are so forward heavy specialy 270 gyutos.. so the handles helpt to get them to feel better.. but its Also imo the best knifes from Japan consider the proformance grind and heat treat is imo super good on the blue2 from him. 
So this family grown faster then other makers


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