# A Laser Zwilling Kramer Damascus? Regrinding & Etching



## JDC (Jan 11, 2020)

The 8 inch ZK Damascus is definitely a looker, but far from a performer. While I very much appreciate its appearance, it has been sitting in the drawer for a long long time. The knife has a great balance as a western, a thin spin, a good distal taper, and a decent core steel (SG2). However, the performance is poor: everything you cut sticks to the blade and the friction/drag is unbearable when cutting firm-textured produces. It's a pure looker.

Before the holidays, I had the ZKramer in my hand again. Feeling the elegant balance, I started to think: let me try another western handle knife, but this time a real performer. The search was difficult, I was looking for something rivals Konosuke's grinds, balanced at the bolster, western handled, 210mm in length, and stainless. When I finally was ready to buy, some drama happened on the seller's side and I didn't get it. Anyway, even if I bought the knife, it still wouldn't get close to a Konosuke grind. 

So what grind makes a kitchen knife perform (like a laser)? From my perspective, the blade has to be thin, especially behind the edge. When that part is thinned enough, the knife will just drop through smaller vegetables, such as celery and small carrots. However the blade can't be too thin for two reasons: 1. it must have enough strength behind the edge; 2. it has to be thick enough to afford a slight convex grind for food release. Why a slight convex? A pronounced convex means your blade is thick, and that will cause wedging on larger vegetables. 

Zwilling did a bad grind job on the ZK Damascus. The already thin blade has a flat grind starting from the spine. But that grind doesn't go all the way to the edge, it stops at about 7~8mm before that, then ground at a higher angle towards the edge. No wonder the knife wedges, drags, and sticks. Good news is the SG2 core is pretty hard so that it can afford further thinning.

All that said, I'm actually very new to thinning/regrinding. What's worse, the best tools I have for this job are some diamond stones. So this is a multi-day project. 


The knife started at 277 grams. It sounds heavy, but actually feels nimble at hand. 




The nickel-stainless Damascus layer turned out to be very abrasion resistant. Initially I tried a Shapton Pro 220, but it barely cut. Even a 140 diamond stone cut slowly. Finally the 80 grit diamond came to the rescue, but I was greedy by thinning too much with it and that left deep scratches:



I wanted to keep some original pattern and the "Kramer Zwilling" label, so I covered them with duct tapes. But to my surprise, the label (ink) was entirely lifted by the duct tape:



So I went further (angrily) grinding all the Damascus away. The tip was ground as thin as I dare:



The left side (in normal holding pose) of the blade becomes almost flat, and the right side has a slight convex. I had a better convex on the right side, but I mistakenly ground it away when trying to remove deep scratches (be patient and don't do that in the first place!). Lengthwise I did a differential grind which left the blade thicker towards the heel to keep some "workhorse" feel to it. The choil shot:



The blade was taken to a 600 grit finish (lower grit scratches are still visible, but I have no more elbow grease left), and buffed using a Dremel. Before re-etching, I put a 8k low angle edge with micro bevels, covered with duct tape, then used my wife's least favorite nail lacquer to cover the core steel below the lamination line. Using Murray Carter's method (although I don't agree with his partnership with nanohone, his method worked), I brushed both sides with full strength RadioShack PCB enchant and left it there for 1 minute. 



Look at the etching result. Isn't this a dark magic?! The re-etched Damascus finish covered up all the scratches I was worrying about, and in cutting tests it didn't add any negative effects. It is unclear if the performance would be the same if the core steel below the lamination line was also etched.



Finally, some beauty shots!











Performance-wise, the knife had a total reborn. The front portion is so thin which just flies through anything. The tip simply drops through celery, carrots, and onions, no force needed. The back portion is a little bit thicker. With a tad more convexity, it has a little bit better food release than the front - see below for the chopped potato, nothing stuck to the blade:





The hand grinding was an ordeal, but I'm very pleased with the result. The knife now has the Zwilling label ground away, but a part of me etched in. Special thanks to my friend (he looks like Kurosaki san's twin brother), whose Konosuke YS inspired me about the grind. And thanks to my wife who always bear with me on my hobbies. Finally, thanks to all the knife people who share their knowledge and discoveries without reservation!


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## madelinez (Jan 11, 2020)

You can't even tell that knife hit an 80 grit diamond stone...


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## kayman67 (Jan 11, 2020)

Doing stuff like this myself, I totally feel your every step. Looks great!


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## F-Flash (Jan 11, 2020)

How much it weights after thinning? Nice job!


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## JDC (Jan 11, 2020)

madelinez said:


> You can't even tell that knife hit an 80 grit diamond stone...


Lol, now you see how hard the cladding was... Indeed, polishing is more time consuming in the case that I didn't plan ahead.


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## JDC (Jan 11, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Doing stuff like this myself, I totally feel your every step. Looks great!


Thanks mate! I didn't realize how little money they charge for regrinding until now XD


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## JDC (Jan 11, 2020)

F-Flash said:


> How much it weights after thinning? Nice job!


Oh I totally forgot. It weights 274 grams after everything. It started from 277 and lost 3 grams. 
The balance is preserved, but I still can't believe all that thinning (and the performance improvement) boil down to that 3 grams.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jan 11, 2020)

oh man you got a lot patience and elbow grease. Amazing job! I might do the same to my ZK 52100 and SG2 someday. I’m currently regrinding a Tad white 2 with Shapton glass 220 and after 2 hours the weight only went down by 1 gram. Such a pain...


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## JDC (Jan 11, 2020)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> oh man you got a lot patience and elbow grease. Amazing job! I might do the same to my ZK 52100 and SG2 someday. I’m currently regrinding a Tad white 2 with Shapton glass 220 and after 2 hours the weight only went down by 1 gram. Such a pain...


A lot of patience indeed, I didn't need to go to the gym for those days... To my experience an Atoma 400 may grind faster than the Shapton if you have stainless cladding. Man after the job I'm seriously considering investing in, or building a belt grinder.


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## kayman67 (Jan 11, 2020)

JDC said:


> Oh I totally forgot. It weights 274 grams after everything. It started from 277 and lost 3 grams.
> The balance is preserved, but I still can't believe all that thinning (and the performance improvement) boil down to that 3 grams.
> View attachment 68563



This is what proper geometry does. Makes such a difference, it's hard to imagine.


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## JDC (Jan 11, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> This is what proper geometry does. Makes such a difference, it's hard to imagine.


I start to believe. It's such a delicate thing to do, a little bit under you won't reach it, a little bit over you lose it.


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## Nomo4me (Jan 11, 2020)

You had yourself a time there. Nice work.


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## Robert Lavacca (Jan 11, 2020)

I feel your pain. And after using an atoma 140 myself I can’t believe that your knife touched an 80 grit plate with those final photos. Unreal! Nice job


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## Bensbites (Jan 11, 2020)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> oh man you got a lot patience and elbow grease. Amazing job! I might do the same to my ZK 52100 and SG2 someday. I’m currently regrinding a Tad white 2 with Shapton glass 220 and after 2 hours the weight only went down by 1 gram. Such a pain...


Sorry if I am steering the conversation a single different but relevant way. 
Op- great job. Inspirational! 

HZ. For $150 you can get a 1x30 and belts. That has to be faster and less damage to a SG220


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## M1k3 (Jan 12, 2020)

Not everyone has space for a 1x30


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jan 12, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> Sorry if I am steering the conversation a single different but relevant way.
> Op- great job. Inspirational!
> 
> HZ. For $150 you can get a 1x30 and belts. That has to be faster and less damage to a SG220


Thank you for the advice. I live in an apartment so not sure if my wife will be happy with the metal dust produced by a belt sander. Will definitely grab one once we move into a house.


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## Bensbites (Jan 12, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Not everyone has space for a 1x30


That is a very fair point. Until 10 yrs ago I was in that situation. Until 3 yrs ago I wouldn’t have had the time...

thank you for providing another view.


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## Kitchen-Samurai (Jan 12, 2020)

That's awesome, especially your finish! Just wow! That was a lot of work, I know this as I am currently thinning and regrinding my Takeda NAS by hand, using an Atoma plate. I would have never though it to be such a PITA...!


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## ma_sha1 (Jan 12, 2020)

Great job 
3g is a lot, I did 2-rounds of thinning on my TF, big difference in performance but only lost one gram


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## TRPV4 (Jan 12, 2020)

the etching came out quite nice in the end


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## JDC (Jan 12, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> Sorry if I am steering the conversation a single different but relevant way.
> Op- great job. Inspirational!
> 
> HZ. For $150 you can get a 1x30 and belts. That has to be faster and less damage to a SG220


Thanks for the suggestion! I'm curious if you know of a popular sander commonly used by knife makers?


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## Bensbites (Jan 12, 2020)

JDC said:


> Thanks for the suggestion! I'm curious if you know of a popular sander commonly used by knife makers?


The 1x30 belt grinders are cheap for hobby level stuff. Pros use 2x72 belts. Over time the cheaper cost per square inch of abrasive saves money. I have a 1x30 rikon for western rehandles and general purpose work. Most of the 1x30 grinders our there look like they are made on the sane assembly line. 
As far as belts, there are several good brands out there. I stumbled on red label abrasives and have been very happy with their belts.


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## JDC (Jan 12, 2020)

Kitchen-Samurai said:


> That's awesome, especially your finish! Just wow! That was a lot of work, I know this as I am currently thinning and regrinding my Takeda NAS by hand, using an Atoma plate. I would have never though it to be such a PITA...!


Thanks! It was so painfully slow, until I lost patience and hit it on a 80 grit diamond. After that most of the time were spent on polishing (140 diamond, 220 Shapton Pro, 400 Atoma, 600 Pride Abrasive, some soft touch sanding pads, and finally Dremel). I had some pronounced scratches left until they were covered by the etching. If I were doing it again, I would spend less time on the 80 grit and work a better progression to fully remove scratches from previous grits. I thinned too much with the 80 and I couldn't erase all scratches without make the blade thinner than I'd like. Good luck with your Takeda!


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## JDC (Jan 12, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Great job
> 3g is a lot, I did 2-rounds of thinning on my TF, big difference in performance but only lost one gram


The geometry thing is like magic, isn't it?


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## JDC (Jan 12, 2020)

TRPV4 said:


> the etching came out quite nice in the end


Thanks, that was quite easy because the Damascus is nickel/stainless. Murry Carter's method works great with that kind of construction


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## JDC (Jan 12, 2020)

Bensbites said:


> The 1x30 belt grinders are cheap for hobby level stuff. Pros use 2x72 belts. Over time the cheaper cost per square inch of abrasive saves money. I have a 1x30 rikon for western rehandles and general purpose work. Most of the 1x30 grinders our there look like they are made on the sane assembly line.
> As far as belts, there are several good brands out there. I stumbled on red label abrasives and have been very happy with their belts.


Awesome, looks the 1x30 is big enough for kitchen knives, but the 2x72 is just so BA!


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## aboynamedsuita (Jan 12, 2020)

Glad to hear the SG2 Damascus was reborn after some work. I was disappointed with the original one I had tried several years ago. I had something similar done to the 52100 10” version, agree that the performance improves dramatically. Also rehandled the knife too


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## JDC (Jan 12, 2020)

aboynamedsuita said:


> Glad to hear the SG2 Damascus was reborn after some work. I was disappointed with the original one I had tried several years ago. I had something similar done to the 52100 10” version, agree that the performance improves dramatically. Also rehandled the knife too


It's a pity Zwilling wouldn't take a step further before releasing them to the market. But glad ours both worked out!


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## Marek07 (Jan 13, 2020)

JDC said:


> The 8 inch ZK Damascus is definitely a looker, but far from a performer. While I very much appreciate its appearance, it has been sitting in the drawer for a long long time. The knife has a great balance as a western, a thin spin, a good distal taper, and a decent core steel (SG2). However, the performance is poor: everything you cut sticks to the blade and the friction/drag is unbearable when cutting firm-textured produces. It's a pure looker.
> 
> Before the holidays, I had the ZKramer in my hand again. Feeling the elegant balance, I started to think: let me try another western handle knife, but this time a real performer. The search was difficult, I was looking for something rivals Konosuke's grinds, balanced at the bolster, western handled, 210mm in length, and stainless. When I finally was ready to buy, some drama happened on the seller's side and I didn't get it. Anyway, even if I bought the knife, it still wouldn't get close to a Konosuke grind.
> 
> ...


Great outcome and really inspiring. Don't know if I should thank you or curse you. 

Looks as though I have my 2nd project for the year.


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## JDC (Jan 13, 2020)

Marek07 said:


> Great outcome and really inspiring. Don't know if I should thank you or curse you.
> 
> Looks as though I have my 2nd project for the year.


Lol what can I say, hope you enjoy the project XD. In fact I think outsourcing the job to a good sharpener is not a bad idea.


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## talcum (Jan 10, 2022)

Have you tried any of the FC61 series? They're cheaper and come without the dama cladding, so may be a bit thinner behind the edge.


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## Bolek (Jan 10, 2022)

What is the 80 grit diamond stone you used ?


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## JDC (Jan 12, 2022)

talcum said:


> Have you tried any of the FC61 series? They're cheaper and come without the dama cladding, so may be a bit thinner behind the edge.


I haven't. But I tried the 52100 version, which is actually thicker than the damascus one.


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## JDC (Jan 12, 2022)

Bolek said:


> What is the 80 grit diamond stone you used ?


I was using the one that togo offers. Not sure if they still have any. It's quite heavy and not as consistent as Atoma plates. But it's much cheaper.


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## ModRQC (Jan 12, 2022)

JDC said:


> It's a pity Zwilling wouldn't take a step further before releasing them to the market. But glad ours both worked out!



Hey hey show some respect.

These exceptional knives undergo a rigorous 100-step, 42-day manufacturing process during which they pass through the hands of 45 expert artisans. They are made to Bob Kramer's exacting specifications...

Funnily enough you can't find that legend on Zwilling official anymore. Or it's buried some place that's not obvious. Had to resort to Amazon to find it in all its glory... Nowadays only the "Kramer's exacting specificiations", "Honbazuke edge" remain of the original pissing contest.

They probably make a hundred in three hours. Four guys in the shop operating the factory - COVID and everything...


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## big_adventure (Jan 13, 2022)

Nice job on that - I have done one major thin job on a new-ish knife, and it was a bear.

My 210 Denka (measurements 214 blade, 54.5 heel height) came pretty thick behind the edge:

When new: 167g
1,6mm 1cm up from the heel.
1,6mm 1cm up from midblade.
1,4mm 1cm up from 2cm from the tip.	

Hours of elbow grease with sandpaper, 140 diamond place, SG220 and NP400 and it lost 4g, down to 163g, but those behind-the-edge numbers became

1.2mm 1cm up from the heel.
1,1mm 1cm up from midblade.
1,0mm 1cm up from 2cm from the tip.	

Cutting performance increased dramatically.


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## ModRQC (Jan 13, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> Nice job on that - I have done one major thin job on a new-ish knife, and it was a bear.
> 
> My 210 Denka (measurements 214 blade, 54.5 heel height) came pretty thick behind the edge:
> 
> ...



Typical OOTB TF specs


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## big_adventure (Jan 13, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> Typical OOTB TF specs



There is only one reply possible:

*WABI-SABI !*


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## JDC (Jan 13, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> Nice job on that - I have done one major thin job on a new-ish knife, and it was a bear.
> 
> My 210 Denka (measurements 214 blade, 54.5 heel height) came pretty thick behind the edge:
> 
> ...


The performance is quite a delicate thing, isn't it? A little bit thicker behind the edge and it's lost.


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## tostadas (Jan 13, 2022)

big_adventure said:


> Nice job on that - I have done one major thin job on a new-ish knife, and it was a bear.
> 
> My 210 Denka (measurements 214 blade, 54.5 heel height) came pretty thick behind the edge:
> 
> ...


I'd be very happy with those new specs. The stock ones seem typical of most TFs I've handled.


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## big_adventure (Jan 13, 2022)

JDC said:


> The performance is quite a delicate thing, isn't it? A little bit thicker behind the edge and it's lost.



Indeed. It wasn't bad before thinning - in fact, it was good enough that I was relatively surprised that it was so thick behind the edge. But the improvement is quite tangible.



tostadas said:


> I'd be very happy with those new specs. The stock ones seem typical of most TFs I've handled.



Yeah, it really transformed the knife. I won't lie - it's not my favorite profile among my gyutos: it has very little flat spot and I both generally prefer longer knives AND I mostly straight chop and push cut, so I like some flat/nearly flat in the shape. With that Denka, I need to slightly alter my cutting style to ensure I don't leave things uncut. On the other hand, TF's steel is the real deal, taking a "perform delicate eye surgery" edge trivially, and holding it for a good long time, and the food release is great. It's amazing for draw cutting, G&G and rocking.


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## Tea_Hills (Jan 20, 2022)

That end result looks amazing


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## JDC (Jan 20, 2022)

Tea_Hills said:


> That end result looks amazing


I've since deep etched the knife. It looks even better, and food release is improved


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## Tea_Hills (Jan 20, 2022)

Let's see it!


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## btbyrd (Jan 20, 2022)

I loved seeing the work the OP put into thinning this blade... also looking forward to seeing the etched version.

For what it's worth, here's my laser ZKramer 52100 that JKI put on a diet. There's no convexing and food release is bad, but I do not care at all because the thing cuts like crazy and the tip is insane.


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## JDC (Jan 20, 2022)

btbyrd said:


> I loved seeing the work the OP put into thinning this blade... also looking forward to seeing the etched version.
> 
> For what it's worth, here's my laser ZKramer 52100 that JKI put on a diet. There's no convexing and food release is bad, but I do not care at all because the thing cuts like crazy and the tip is insane.
> 
> View attachment 161749


This grind is insane, they did a really good job!


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## JDC (Jan 20, 2022)

OK, here you go:


This etch creates an almost 3D look. Not too deep but you can feel the grooves with fingers.


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## btbyrd (Jan 20, 2022)

That's hot! Excellent work!


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## valdim (Feb 8, 2022)

JDC said:


> OK, here you go:
> 
> 
> This etch creates an almost 3D look. Not too deep but you can feel the grooves with fingers.



If I keep looking at this wonderfully etched blade, this 3D motion may make me fall asleep like Lucky - the Tanner family's cat


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## birdsfan (Feb 8, 2022)

Glad this was revived! I hadnt seen that video post before. That etch really brought out the pattern, beautiful!


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## coxhaus (Feb 8, 2022)

Can you adjust the rpm on the 1 x 30 belt sanders? The one I looked at was 1 speed. I want variable speed. It is one of the reasons I use the Worksharp.


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## JDC (Feb 8, 2022)

coxhaus said:


> Can you adjust the rpm on the 1 x 30 belt sanders? The one I looked at was 1 speed. I want variable speed. It is one of the reasons I use the Worksharp.


Is this a question for me? My belt sander has variable speed from 1 to 6.


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## Bolek (Feb 9, 2022)

JDC said:


> I was using the one that togo offers. Not sure if they still have any. It's quite heavy and not as consistent as Atoma plates. But it's much cheaper.


Who is Togo ?


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## JDC (Feb 9, 2022)

Bolek said:


> Who is Togo ?


CKTG


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## M1k3 (Feb 9, 2022)

Bolek said:


> Who is Togo ?


Chef Knives To-go


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