# Regional/OEM branding, call it out here or not?



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 3, 2016)

OK,

How clearly or not should one state things like "Knife X from vendor Y seems to be also sold in a different country/by a different vendor as knife A from brand B. This hints at maker Z or steel Z, which brand B discloses but brand Y does not." here?

Neither do I want to piss off the vendors/distributors, nor cause confusion if mistaken, nor leave fellow enthusiasts in the dark :dontknow:


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## Badgertooth (Dec 3, 2016)

I'll get this ball rolling. Champion scheister and non-forum vendor Japanese Knife Company sells Tadafusa as "aogami collection" for made up prices. Avoid


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## Nemo (Dec 3, 2016)

But then again, JCK sells "Blue Moon" that looks very similar to Tadafusa and I would not say "Avoid" in this case.


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## Badgertooth (Dec 3, 2016)

Yes, please don't let my JKC (London based shop) warning be confused with the lovely Koki at JCK. Koki will also tell you about his OEM stuff if you ask him


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## easy13 (Dec 3, 2016)

What's the difference on prices of what is to me the most rampant/classic OEM - "Hammered Damascus" w/ either brown wood western or wa handle. Gotta be at least 10 different names for
that frikkin knife.


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## daveb (Dec 4, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> OK,
> 
> How clearly or not should one state things like "Knife X from vendor Y seems to be also sold in a different country/by a different vendor as knife A from brand B. This hints at maker Z or steel Z, which brand B discloses but brand Y does not." here?
> 
> Neither do I want to piss off the vendors/distributors, nor cause confusion if mistaken, nor leave fellow enthusiasts in the dark :dontknow:



Would think some of that would depend on who's asking. If Anyone. Can't imagine world coming to an end because someone was not provided unsolicited advice on the "true" origins of a knife. And common courtesy would suggest that opinions are presented as such. 

That being said I can't imagine anything along these lines warranting any sort of mod action. Can't imagine anyone calling bullshitt warranting any action either.


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## fatboylim (Dec 4, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> Yes, please don't let my JKC (London based shop) warning be confused with the lovely Koki at JCK. Koki will also tell you about his OEM stuff if you ask him



I agree with Badger, JKC in the UK is very overpriced. JCK in Japan is very reasonably priced!


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## Omega (Dec 4, 2016)

Only recently had my first ever correspondence with Koki. Damn- what a really nice guy. He didn't have what I was looking for in stock at the moment, but darn if he wasn't accommodating. Looking forward to giving him some patronage in the future!


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## miggus (Dec 4, 2016)

Speaking of Tadafusa, I bought the 240 Gyuto from bluewayjapan (ebay) under the name of "Sakai Ichimonji Kichikuni Blue Steel"


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 4, 2016)

So I hope i'm not stepping on Koki's toes by saying "From photo and spec study, I still think the JCK FRKZ swedish stainless, recently asked about in another thread, seem very related to the Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef Wa Inox, and might be the better choice given that varying opinions have been given on ST F&F consistency". And not on anyone else's by saying "Takamura Chromax is not unlikely to be SLD/SKD-12".


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## AllanP (Dec 4, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> So I hope i'm not stepping on Koki's toes by saying "From photo and spec study, I still think the JCK FRKZ swedish stainless, recently asked about in another thread, seem very related to the Sakai Takayuki Grand Chef Wa Inox, and might be the better choice given that varying opinions have been given on ST F&F consistency". And not on anyone else's by saying "Takamura Chromax is not unlikely to be SLD/SKD-12".



I thought the JCK FRKZ looked like the Sakai Yusuke's


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## Krassi (Dec 4, 2016)

i Guess the Akifusa knifes come in 10 trillion different rebrands.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 4, 2016)

It looks almost like the Masakage Kumo line is sold under the Anryu name in Germany by some retailers...


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## daveb (Dec 4, 2016)

"It looks almost like....."

Now that's definitive.


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## ThEoRy (Dec 4, 2016)

This thread is more confusing than helpful.


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## pkjames (Dec 4, 2016)

Sometimes it is to avoid direct competition. Sometimes it is used to sell at lower / higher price.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 4, 2016)

@ThEoRy I didn't start it with the intention of collecting examples in thread. But then, some came in, and why not do as the romans do.


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## JBroida (Dec 4, 2016)

pkjames said:


> Sometimes it is to avoid direct competition. Sometimes it is used to sell at lower / higher price.



Sometimes it's because the maker doesn't want to deal with end users and only focus on OEM work


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## dwalker (Dec 4, 2016)

I may be in the minority here, but knowing the blacksmith and or finisher of a knife makes it more desirable for me. I have not purchased a knife yet that has the smith's name with held. I understand the reasons this happens and will very likely purchase said knives in the future based on user opinion here, but it does lessen the appeal. A thread like this is interesting, however I can see how it may ruffle some feathers.


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## JBroida (Dec 4, 2016)

dwalker said:


> I may be in the minority here, but knowing the blacksmith and or finisher of a knife makes it more desirable for me. I have not purchased a knife yet that has the smith's name with held. I understand the reasons this happens and will very likely purchase said knives in the future based on user opinion here, but it does lessen the appeal. A thread like this is interesting, however I can see how it may ruffle some feathers.



Fair enough and totally understandable... I just hope people consider that this can end up being a truly selfish thing sometimes, as not all of the craftsmen want their name out there for everything. Same goes for information they are not willing to share... sometimes this will be intimated to people in private, but then those people will share that info in public.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 5, 2016)

All I care about is if it takes and holds an edge really


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## dwalker (Dec 5, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> All I care about is if it takes and holds an edge really



There has to be more to it than that, doesn't there? At least for most of us. If a knife is only a means to an end and nothing more, then we could do well with a couple and be done buying. Let's not kid ourselves. Most here are collectors and aficionados. If that were not true, this forum probably wouldn't exist or at least look anything like it does now. If my only criteria was take and hold a keen edge, I would have been done long ago. I like knowing everything I can about the knives I buy, and if I don't know who made it, I'd rather spend the money on something else. I know this is probably to my detriment, but it is hard for me to get past. BTW, performance is just as important to me. I have bought knives from some of the most renowned smith's that didn't perform well enough to hold on to.


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## malexthekid (Dec 5, 2016)

dwalker said:


> There has to be more to it than that, doesn't there? At least for most of us. If a knife is only a means to an end and nothing more, then we could do well with a couple and be done buying. Let's not kid ourselves. Most here are collectors and aficionados. If that were not true, this forum probably wouldn't exist or at least look anything like it does now. If my only criteria was take and hold a keen edge, I would have been done long ago. I like knowing everything I can about the knives I buy, and if I don't know who made it, I'd rather spend the money on something else. I know this is probably to my detriment, but it is hard for me to get past. BTW, performance is just as important to me. I have bought knives from some of the most renowned smith's that didn't perform well enough to hold on to.



But with most of these places you do, sort of, know who made it... You just don't necessarily have a name, which really makes no sense to you at all. It isn't like you get to necessarily meet the makers, sit down and have a few beers with them etc. etc. So why does it make a difference if it is a Haburn or a Gesshin Hide or whatever... The name tells you about what knife it is, the steel may be a secret it may be known.

Heaps of industries do similar things. Much like clean skins in the wine industry (I think the name is different in France where they just sell excess under a generic name and label). Where the winemakers want to keep their wine boutique so they can charge me, so if they get a good crop, they release stuff as a cleanskin, so the name bottle can still be called limited edition or whatever. Heck some places here in Aus will just sell it as a cleanskin under the region and grape variety, not even letting you know where it came from.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 5, 2016)

I guess it is still considered a mark of quality if a craftsman is willing to put his name on something, be it as a maker or as a quality gatekeeper. Rightfully so, I think, and certainly when it comes to knives - where there is still enough mediocre goods due to bad HT, mislabelling of blade materials, design mistakes to make it impossible to base your purchasing decision just on specs (steel, hrc, geometry numbers) if you want to reliably get something that "takes and holds an edge"...

....

One reason to advocate sharing such info as openly as possible: Making it easy for global (as in, other countries and stuff) readers to get a much recommended knife by buying it under their locally-distributed brand instead of having to do their own importing (or in the worst case, double-importing, by having to order a japanese made tool from a US importer even though they want it in France  ) and incurring extra cost (probably not even benefitting the maker at all).


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## K813zra (Dec 5, 2016)

I guess for me it really depends on the vendor I am dealing with. There are dealers that I feel that I can take their word as the final note on whether or not a knife is quality whereas with others if I do not know who made the knife to judge the reputation for myself then I will not buy it. I suppose in this case the easiest thing to do would be to buy from another vendor but at times you just can't find what you want but from a single place or maybe two.


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## alterwisser (Dec 5, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> All I care about is if it takes and holds an edge really



True that!

Example: I really don't care you makes JKI's Kochi line ... I just fricking love it. Nuff said. And I trust Jon ..


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## chinacats (Dec 5, 2016)

dwalker said:


> There has to be more to it than that, doesn't there? At least for most of us. If a knife is only a means to an end and nothing more, then we could do well with a couple and be done buying. Let's not kid ourselves. Most here are collectors and aficionados. If that were not true, this forum probably wouldn't exist or at least look anything like it does now. If my only criteria was take and hold a keen edge, I would have been done long ago. I like knowing everything I can about the knives I buy, and if I don't know who made it, I'd rather spend the money on something else. I know this is probably to my detriment, but it is hard for me to get past. BTW, performance is just as important to me. I have bought knives from some of the most renowned smith's that didn't perform well enough to hold on to.




I get your point and fortunately there are plenty of options for you to speak directly with a maker and get exactly what you want (depending your/their communication skills)...for those of us who would prefer to put our trust in vendors; I'm in the don't so much care as long as I trust you camp...or as others have said, give me a good edge that will hold it (I'd add preferable profile/geometry to this).


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## dwalker (Dec 5, 2016)

alterwisser said:


> True that!
> 
> Example: I really don't care you makes JKI's Kochi line ... I just fricking love it. Nuff said. And I trust Jon ..



I trust Jon, too. I hope I didn't come across as implying that if a vendor doesn't divulge the origin of a line that they are trying to pull one over on me. That is certainly not the case.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 5, 2016)

I also did not imply that, certainly not with JKI or JCK or dictum - they are often offering you a brand knife at a lower price that way. My question was more along the lines of "potential buyers should know/be told observations so these hood offers get taken up on without these dealers having to "officially" divulge the lineage, or am I missing something?".


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## malexthekid (Dec 5, 2016)

dwalker said:


> I trust Jon, too. I hope I didn't come across as implying that if a vendor doesn't divulge the origin of a line that they are trying to pull one over on me. That is certainly not the case.



You must also realise a lot of the time it isn't the vendor but the maker who doesn't want it to be public.


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## daveb (Dec 5, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> I also did not imply that, certainly not with JKI or JCK or dictum - they are often offering you a brand knife at a lower price that way. My question was more along the lines of "potential buyers should know/be told observations so these hood offers get taken up on without these dealers having to "officially" divulge the lineage, or am I missing something?".



You're missing The boat. The dock. The ocean. IMHO.

If a manufacturer (or vendor) holds processes or materials as proprietary, then so be it. You're buying a functional product and have no "right" to proprietary data, be it steel, HT specs, or what the maker had for dinner. You can trust the maker of not. You can trust the vendor or not. 

If that level of detail is important or critical to your decision process then there are plenty of manufacturers that make that information public. Vote with your wallet.

In some 30+ years of Dept of Defense Acquisition I quickly learned that smart program managers bought new systems to a functional specification. Only the young and naive or the old fools bought to a product specification where they presumed to tell a manufacturer how to build something.


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## Mute-on (Dec 5, 2016)

+1 to Dave's points above. 
There is also no benefit to speculating about what you think looks like, feels like, smells like or seems like something else. 
Get the facts or you risk spreading misinformation.


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## milkbaby (Dec 5, 2016)

easy13 said:


> What's the difference on prices of what is to me the most rampant/classic OEM - "Hammered Damascus" w/ either brown wood western or wa handle. Gotta be at least 10 different names for
> that frikkin knife.



That's my favorite... I like how the hammer marks are always the same sizes in the same locations.


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## supersayan3 (Dec 5, 2016)

miggus said:


> Speaking of Tadafusa, I bought the 240 Gyuto from bluewayjapan (ebay) under the name of "Sakai Ichimonji Kichikuni Blue Steel"



Are you sure it is the same knife?


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## Dan P. (Dec 7, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> Yes, please don't let my JKC (London based shop) warning be confused with the lovely Koki at JCK.



Funnily enough, I came very close to making "store brand" knives for JKC!


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## jessf (Dec 7, 2016)

If you really want to know what's in the soup, make your own!


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## rami_m (Dec 8, 2016)

See that's the bit I don't understand. I don't need to know the smith details. But sending out the same knives under different brand does not sit well with me.


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## Nemo (Dec 8, 2016)

jessf said:


> If you really want to know what's in the soup, make your own!



I think that starts to make the "soup" pretty expensive though!&#128522;


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 8, 2016)

@daveb that point of view might be "good enough for government work"


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## daveb (Dec 8, 2016)

Gut!


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## jessf (Dec 8, 2016)

I really have no idea what this thread is about.


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## dz5b604 (Dec 8, 2016)

jessf said:


> I really have no idea what this thread is about.



Knifemakers selling knives to different companies who rebrand them to their own lines. Like some of the eden lines (knivesandtools.co.uk) are made by Kurosaki and other Masakage knife makers.


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## ddocks (Dec 9, 2016)

I've thought about this quite a bit. Personally I won't buy any of the store branded knives. While I don't think JCK or any of the reputable vendors here would pass off junk knives I really like to know what I'm buying--the story is part of it for me. Even if you were buying a Wustoff or something as mass-market as that there's still a story attached to it. 

I wish the vendors would be more transparent about it and co-brand with the makers as some do instead of inventing store brands often with silly names and branding. As well personally I like to comparison shop and educate myself on the products I buy; can't really do that with store branded items.


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## fatboylim (Dec 9, 2016)

If a vendor adds nothing else but a obscure brand name then, I would agree. Where great vendors invest time in specifying grind, density, handle, thinning, tip angles, bevel levels, heat treatments, then their specific design should be represented by their own brand. Especially when they can source their same design with different steels/Cladding that different smiths are specialists at. It may lose its makers reference, but when it is so consistently well designed people will come back. I think Maxim, James, Koki and Jon (and others) have all deserved their own brand knives for their heavy input into the designs. 




ddocks said:


> I've thought about this quite a bit. Personally I won't buy any of the store branded knives. While I don't think JCK or any of the reputable vendors here would pass off junk knives I really like to know what I'm buying--the story is part of it for me. Even if you were buying a Wustoff or something as mass-market as that there's still a story attached to it.
> 
> I wish the vendors would be more transparent about it and co-brand with the makers as some do instead of inventing store brands often with silly names and branding. As well personally I like to comparison shop and educate myself on the products I buy; can't really do that with store branded items.


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## Badgertooth (Dec 9, 2016)

fatboylim said:


> If a vendor adds nothing else but a obscure brand name then, I would agree. Where great vendors invest time in specifying grind, density, handle, thinning, tip angles, bevel levels, heat treatments, then their specific design should be represented by their own brand. Especially when they can source their same design with different steels/Cladding that different smiths are specialists at. It may lose its makers reference, but when it is so consistently well designed people will come back. I think Maxim, James, Koki and Jon (and others) have all deserved their own brand knives for their heavy input into the designs.



That is spectacularly well put. My initial post was quite pithy and a little spiteful but it's directed at the practise of upselling OEM that has had zero input from the retailer other than some very egregious padding.


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## fatboylim (Dec 9, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> That is spectacularly well put. My initial post was quite pithy and a little spiteful but it's directed at the practise of upselling OEM that has had zero input from the retailer other than some very egregious padding.



You are spot on for those vendors who add no value, but make up obscure branding to hide the maker. I dislike them equally!


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 9, 2016)

"then their specific design should be represented by their own brand"

In this case, the question is moot anyway since the product marketed is not identical to another.

I think when some seller offers a $300 knife with an own brand and a faulty description - not speaking of JCK, JKI etc here. More of either smaller vendors, or tool shops that mean well but can't manage their descriptions, eg "handmade by master Shigefusa" .. I think this brand hasn't a blacksmith of this name? -, it is information like "this is identical to this or this and actually worth $300" that makes me consider buying it - not the absence of such information.


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## ddocks (Dec 10, 2016)

fatboylim said:


> If a vendor adds nothing else but a obscure brand name then, I would agree. Where great vendors invest time in specifying grind, density, handle, thinning, tip angles, bevel levels, heat treatments, then their specific design should be represented by their own brand. Especially when they can source their same design with different steels/Cladding that different smiths are specialists at. It may lose its makers reference, but when it is so consistently well designed people will come back. I think Maxim, James, Koki and Jon (and others) have all deserved their own brand knives for their heavy input into the designs.



I haven't really thought about it that way. I guess certain vendors have earned a level of trust but it can be hard to know how much a certain knife is truly custom designed and not something generic that's been rebranded or a minor tweak made. I feel the same as LifeByA1000Cuts the more information the better for me as well. It's even more compounded when we have a few good sellers like you listed. You know the service will be great from any one them so how do you pick between them unless you can understand why their oem knife is better than the others.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 10, 2016)

I think people often make far too much fuss about why "which knife is better than others"

Were I a betting man, I'd wager that most differences are largely imperceptible to 95% of users in 95% of cases. 

High end somm often don't discuss flavour notes as they are totally subjective

And besides what kind of informed judgements are you making about old fellas in the Pacific rim? Based on posts from strangers on the internet :razz: it seems immaterial to me

If you see a knife you like, do some research. As long as there are no glaring issues, if you find out the knife is a rebrand of a good knife for less money, score. If you don't find out who makes the knife, as long as the reviews seem decent, why not go for it? Sure it's cool to have an ealy, but I don't lose sleep about my carbonext or the hiromoto honesuki


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## fatboylim (Dec 10, 2016)

ddocks said:


> I haven't really thought about it that way. I guess certain vendors have earned a level of trust but it can be hard to know how much a certain knife is truly custom designed and not something generic that's been rebranded or a minor tweak made. I feel the same as LifeByA1000Cuts the more information the better for me as well. It's even more compounded when we have a few good sellers like you listed. You know the service will be great from any one them so how do you pick between them unless you can understand why their oem knife is better than the others.



Some valid concerns. This is why a forum with healthy debate is so valuable to me. I can reduce the uncertainties in my mind by all the good information here, but nothing will be better than trying the knife. Worst case, I sell it on BST!


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## malexthekid (Dec 10, 2016)

I still can't figure how it is any different.

The makers name only tells you who made it. You have no idea how good it is from the name alone. You need the context of good feedback to mean anything.

How are OEM any different. If they are good they will have a good rep. If they aren't they will have a rubbisb rep. And if you can't find info on them, take a chance... just like on a relatively unknown maker.


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## Dan P. (Dec 18, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> How are OEM any different. If they are good they will have a good rep. If they aren't they will have a rubbisb rep. And if you can't find info on them, take a chance... just like on a relatively unknown maker.



A problem with retailers' brands that do not indicate the maker is that quality can vary wildly if the maker (or spec) is changed. I don't imagine this happens so much with high end knives, but there are entire forums devoted to, for instance, desirable scotch producers selling excess off as own brand scotch at low prices.


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## rami_m (Dec 18, 2016)

Dan P. said:


> but there are entire forums devoted to, for instance, desirable scotch producers selling excess off as own brand scotch at low prices.



Do tell.


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## malexthekid (Dec 18, 2016)

Dan P. said:


> A problem with retailers' brands that do not indicate the maker is that quality can vary wildly if the maker (or spec) is changed. I don't imagine this happens so much with high end knives, but there are entire forums devoted to, for instance, desirable scotch producers selling excess off as own brand scotch at low prices.



But a change in name itself doesn't mean a change in quality. The key to this is buying from a reputable source that stands by their products.

If people were only purchasing based on name all the "new" makers that are continuously getting "discovered" would never happen.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you. But a name doesn't tell you anything about quality... but history may.


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 18, 2016)

That also assumes that feedback is reliable. This ignores two things, one that perfectly good knives can have **** feedback- tojiro dp

Two: people tend to do mental backflips to defend a purchase they just made. Go read anyone's comments about a new knife and then do a search for that same knife in BST.


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## labor of love (Dec 18, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> That also assumes that feedback is reliable. This ignores two things, one that perfectly good knives can have **** feedback- tojiro dp
> 
> Two: people tend to do mental backflips to defend a purchase they just made. Go read anyone's comments about a new knife and then do a search for that same knife in BST.


Yeah!!! Haha


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 18, 2016)

I mean granted there are reasons other than the knife sux to sell, especially given some of the sizeable collections here. But jussayin'.


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## malexthekid (Dec 18, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> I mean granted there are reasons other than the knife sux to sell, especially given some of the sizeable collections here. But jussayin'.



I do find it funny sometimes when you read people's descriptions that say "this is my favourite knife, its an awesome cutter etc". Does make me wonder...

As you say. Some of them you know it is cause they have 100 gyutos. Others you wonder.

Hence why the name alone means nothing. You need lots of pieces of info to filter in to it to actually gain any meaning from it..

Just lik if Shigs were sold under a generic name they would still be as they are.


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## labor of love (Dec 18, 2016)

malexthekid said:


> I do find it funny sometimes when you read people's descriptions that say "this is my favourite knife, its an awesome cutter etc". Does make me wonder...
> 
> As you say. Some of them you know it is cause they have 100 gyutos. Others you wonder.
> 
> ...


People that buy shigs generally don't seem to be too concerned with performance. It's more about functional art. I've used plenty of OEM knives that I like more based on performance over shig.


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## malexthekid (Dec 18, 2016)

Yeah don't disagree on that. The shig reference was more to do with quality... afterall performance is a personal preference, to a degree.


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## rami_m (Dec 18, 2016)

I find it interesting that some have quite a few from the same maker while others tend to have lots of different ones. And I don't mean the shig Kato collectors


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## shownomarci (Dec 18, 2016)

Krassi said:


> i Guess the Akifusa knifes come in 10 trillion different rebrands.



Do you mean Ikeda, Haruyuki, Ohishi,...? 

As long as they give you some detailed specs like steel, HRC, grind, apart from the length, i don't mind how they call their OEM brands i might give it a go.
But when they only tell you the blade length and say 'carbon steel' or 'Stainless Steel' and nothing else, then it's a no go for me.
Insufficient info puts me off big time.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 18, 2016)

"I do find it funny sometimes when you read people's descriptions that say "this is my favourite knife, its an awesome cutter etc". Does make me wonder..."

"favourite", unless sold due to financial needs, sound disingenious indeed - but positive statements about performance could indeed be down to style, aesthetic, balance... issues.


"If people were only purchasing based on name all the "new" makers that are continuously getting "discovered" would never happen."

To the contrary. If I buy a knife by a maker I can find no information on, bearing that makers name, and use the knife, I have also bought empirical information with it: If it is good, I know "some by maker XY are good", if bad or not my style, "some by maker XY are lousy, or not my style". If it is sold under a rebrand, I can only say anything about the reseller's QC...


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## malexthekid (Dec 18, 2016)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> "I do find it funny sometimes when you read people's descriptions that say "this is my favourite knife, its an awesome cutter etc". Does make me wonder..."
> 
> "favourite", unless sold due to financial needs, sound disingenious indeed - but positive statements about performance could indeed be down to style, aesthetic, balance... issues.
> 
> ...



So you are proving my point..... and when buying a knife by a maker through a reseller you are saying the same thing about reseller's QC.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 18, 2016)

Which means if a reseller features knives by a great new maker under a house brand, that is not helping the maker's "hype" or reputation  And the value of such empirical information is shorter lived - resellers tend to be more here today gone tomorrow than makers...


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 19, 2016)

though again to put things in perspective I think most of these knives are regarded as being "professional grade cutlery" in japan, ie intended for professionals

if you go to most decent sushi bars, and talk to your sushiman about different steels, even if you use the japanese terms, you will probably get funny looks.

probably vast majority of professional users only care whether it is carbon or stainless. probably the vast majority of professional users, even in Japan, are not well appraised of the history or reputation of most small makers. I'd imagine names like Ryusen or Takamura and maybe even Shigefusa or Kato ... may be known but not in such detail as is common here.

Long story short: they may not be trying to rip you off with lack of information, they may just mistakenly believe you don't care.


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## malexthekid (Dec 19, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> Long story short: they may not be trying to rip you off with lack of information, they may just mistakenly believe you don't care.



Exactly. Or their business model may be pumping out "generic" knives with minor tweaks to vendors specification which makes different naming perfectly sensible.


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## fatboylim (Dec 19, 2016)

spoiledbroth said:


> though again to put things in perspective I think most of these knives are regarded as being "professional grade cutlery" in japan, ie intended for professionals
> 
> if you go to most decent sushi bars, and talk to your sushiman about different steels, even if you use the japanese terms, you will probably get funny looks.
> 
> ...



SB, you are totally correct about Japanese Sushi chefs not knowing knife details. In most cases, they train under a master chef who literally takes them to a knife shop and says, buy that one. Usually a knife at their lower skill level. 

Only as they get to the upper end of chef work does this change but by then they are used to the very specific grind, geometry, heat treatment etc. of that initial knife.


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## Dan P. (Dec 20, 2016)

rami_m said:


> Do tell.



I can't say off the top of me head, but if you google something like "who makes Sainsbury's Islay" you will find plenty of Whisky nobs in the UK spend a lot of time thinking about these things.
And, if you think about it, if you buy supermarket brand single malt Islay for 25 pounds, it necessarily comes from a distillery who normally markets a bottle at 35 quid or more. 
Problem is it could be excess production, or it could be dud barrels, or a mix of both.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Dec 20, 2016)

" they train under a master chef who literally takes them to a knife shop and says, buy that one."

Yep, big difference to the lone home cooking enthusiast that has no choice but be their own master and student at the same time


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