# "PM sent"- should this be taken out of BST



## Midsummer (Mar 28, 2020)

So, I have noticed quite a few people respond to BST threads with "PM sent". It seems innocuous enough. But what does it really do?

Normally when you are sent a PM you get notice of it by e-mail and by alert when you log on. It seems that putting "PM sent" in a thread really would be necessary only if the sellers mailbox did not accept PM's. That is an unlikely and exceptional possibility. 

Also, if I (the seller) have not already noticed the e-mail notifying me of the PM or the alert when I log on then perhaps the note in the thread would have some utility. But is this theoretic utility (at best) worth anything?

Does the response "PM sent" represent an opportunity cost to the seller? In the past, when I had seen "PM sent" I thought it meant "I have agreed to your terms and I am ready to start closing". 

I have come to find out that many times "PM sent" really means "I have sent you an offer, lets negotiate". That is fair. But I recognize this now after a number of years this forum. For many years I have seen "PM sent" and thought, no need to consider this knife any longer it is wrapped up. So I forget about that specimen and the seller does not get my offer.

So the question I have is, does the "PM sent" have the effect of diminishing the sellers chance of getting his best offer? I now know that if I want something I will send an offer anyway despite seeing a post in a BST thread of "PM sent". But I have been here a number of years. The question is Does writing "PM sent" in a BST thread potentially hurt the sellers chances of an optimal deal. What about the new guys looking to build their collection? Does "PM sent" put then off? and thereby hurt the seller?

If it is even a possibility; then "PM sent" should be banned from BST threads.

Please discuss...


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## Michi (Mar 29, 2020)

I suspect that "PM sent" is posted at least some of the time to discourage other people from making enquiries. Why else would person B tell the entire forum that he/she has sent a PM to person S? (B could just send the PM without telling the entire forum about it.)

Why would I care whether person B has sent a PM to person S?

If I don't want the knife, I definitely don't care. It's just noise.
If I do want the knife, the "PM sent" tells me that someone else is interested, too. How that might affect me is up to me. I can take it as "oh well, someone else came first, no point in asking now, it's too late." Or I can take it as "if I want it, I had better make an offer quickly." Or, if I want the knife really badly, I can take it as "I had better put in a really good offer, otherwise I'll miss out."

As to banning such messages, I don't see a need. I can send my message to person S regardless.


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## CiderBear (Mar 29, 2020)

When I see "PM sent," I assume that the knife is spoken for unless the seller follows up with "Still available" after.

Personally, I find it annoying, but then again I find a lot of things annoying these days.


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## madelinez (Mar 29, 2020)

It's there to discourage other buyers for sure, but at the same time BST isn't an auction site, the sale price is listed. And some knives receive a lot of attention and might result in unnecessary spam for the seller so maybe it has a place...

If someone posts 'PM sent' and you really want the knife, well you can offer more than the listed price. I personally don't mind it.


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## Michi (Mar 29, 2020)

CiderBear said:


> When I see "PM sent," I assume that the knife is spoken for unless the seller follows up with "Still available" after.


Hook, line, and sinker 

To me, a knife is spoken for once I see an "SPF" from the seller.


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## Brian Weekley (Mar 29, 2020)

Been buying and selling on a variety of forums and hobbies over the years. Universally “Sold .. check your mail” meant “I accept your advertised terms in an email (or PM) which has already been sent to you. Typically the posted item has a price or terms which constitutes an offer to sale. The “Sold ... check your mail” signified unqualified acceptance of those terms. Apart from exchanging cash, the deal was done. “Check your mail” meant an offer had been sent which differed from the posted terms but the item was seriously in play. An offer had been sent and was available for acceptance. 

I used those words with that meaning for awhile on BST, until someone objected saying that despite accepting the advertised offer the OP had the right to sell to anyone regardless of posting and the term “Sold” in the response was offensive. I accepted that this was a case of “when in Rome ... so I stopped doing that”. I used “check your mail” ... the equivalent of “PM sent”. The thought being that OP’s check their posts often ... perhaps more often than they check their email and are thereby alerted to the existence of the offer. 

I don’t see “PM sent” as being a bad thing. It may trigger me to send a backup offer or I may simply move on. In this modern PC world anything can be considered offensive to someone so I’ll probably stop sending such posts on BST.


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## IsoJ (Mar 29, 2020)

As a seller point of view, I have noticed that the pm send can mean anything: the pm gets never send, offer, questions, taking the deal as it is etc. I don't see any harm putting pm send to the bst thread but if I were another possible buyer interested in the knife/item I would still send pm straight to the seller.


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## M1k3 (Mar 29, 2020)

Meh.

Go team Swiss!


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## bahamaroot (Mar 29, 2020)

I have stopped posting "pm sent" because it is a waste of time. Most listings get lots of offers without notice in the thread.
I send offers regardless of what's posted until it says "SOLD".


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## soigne_west (Mar 29, 2020)

Don't mean to derail thread but i think it fits here. When you guys sell a hot ticket item that gets multiple offers almost simultaneously, do you folks tend to do first come first serve or do you choose someone in the community that you know is going to either use it or keep it in the community?


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## Brian Weekley (Mar 29, 2020)

As a buyer I expect first come first serve. Engaging in some other criteria would result in me ignoring the OP’s future posts.


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## soigne_west (Mar 29, 2020)

Yeah as a buyer you would hope so. And as a seller here and in other platforms I tend to do the same. I also think its super cool that some knives here have gone through the hands of multiple members. As a seller i would hope that the purchaser would contribute to the community, By eventually passing it on or sharing about it or cutting carrots with it Etc


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## IsoJ (Mar 29, 2020)

For me it is obvious that first come, first serve


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## chinacats (Mar 29, 2020)

It usually means pm sender has made low ball offer...annoying but for certain in demand knives it could give you a time stamp while allowing time to write out your pm...


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## toddnmd (Mar 29, 2020)

I find it a bit annoying and doesn’t really add anything. I’d discourage it, but I’m not sure it needs to be banned.


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## ian (Mar 29, 2020)

I like that it can indicate who bought the knife, which I am sometimes curious about as an outside observer. C.f. the 20% of BST sales that go to Brian W. However, sometimes one can be misled by this, and in general I find it redundant.



Brian Weekley said:


> As a buyer I expect first come first serve. Engaging in some other criteria would result in me ignoring the OP’s future posts.



My local Facebook group has a policy that for highly desired items, one should accept requests to purchase for 24 hrs, then pick one at random using a random number generator. Then you don’t disadvantage people who have to work lots of hours and don’t have time to continually check KKF. I’ve thought about doing this for items that I knew I was selling below value, eg things that I’d previously bought on BST for good prices. Never actually done it though.


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## Matus (Mar 29, 2020)

Seems like most agree that ‘PM sent’ is somewhere between useless and annoying. 

The mod question is - is it bad enough that it should be dealt with on the ‘BST rules’ level?


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## Michi (Mar 29, 2020)

ian said:


> Then you don’t disadvantage people who have to work lots of hours and don’t have time to continually check KKF.


I do prefer that. Surprise, surprise, seeing that it's typically 3 am here when many knives become available. I usually get up in the morning and check BST to find out what deals I missed while I was sleeping. Seems like a change in biorhythm is in order…


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## tgfencer (Mar 29, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> Don't mean to derail thread but i think it fits here. When you guys sell a hot ticket item that gets multiple offers almost simultaneously, do you folks tend to do first come first serve or do you choose someone in the community that you know is going to either use it or keep it in the community?



Usually, I prefer first come first serve. If it's something I think some members I interact act with more often might want, I try to message them prior to posting in BST. However, since as a seller it's my knife until I take someone's money, I have on the rare occasion chosen a member I'm closer with over the first to respond. 

As for the OP, I personally don't have a problem with Pm Sent. In reality, it doesn't really mean anything other than what it says. Whatever one might try to guess is the motivation for posting 'Pm Sent' in any given instance, folks should just assume the BST post is operating as normal until the seller states the knife is sold or SPF. I don't find it impacts my forum usage in any meaningful way and although I may be wrong, I actually feel like it used to be much more common than it is now.

In answer to your question @Matus, I'd personally answer with a strong no. Getting mods involved in something as innocuous as this seems like a rabbit hole in the making to me.


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## Matus (Mar 29, 2020)

@tgfencer I agree, just wanted to hear some feedback.


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## Michi (Mar 29, 2020)

Matus said:


> Seems like most agree that ‘PM sent’ is somewhere between useless and annoying.
> 
> The mod question is - is it bad enough that it should be dealt with on the ‘BST rules’ level?


I don't think that's necessary. People can just ignore it as they see fit.


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## ian (Mar 29, 2020)

Matus said:


> Seems like most agree that ‘PM sent’ is somewhere between useless and annoying.
> 
> The mod question is - is it bad enough that it should be dealt with on the ‘BST rules’ level?



Nah. That seems overbearing. I don’t know if new people actually read the rules, but if they do, maybe you could just add a line indicating that people use PM sent for all different reasons, and it does not indicate that the knife is sold.

Or maybe everyone that doesn’t like the tone of “PM sent” can just send a PM to the poster saying “PM sent ” every time the poster posts “PM sent”. Flaming someone is the way to enact true change in this age of social media.


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## marc4pt0 (Mar 29, 2020)

I don’t use “pm sent”, but don’t mind it either. As a seller I use the time stamps of the actual PM’s if I receive multiple. 
I think the “PM sent” is a good thing though in a way. If seller’s inbox is full and unnoticed this type of post may alert them.


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## Chuckles (Mar 29, 2020)

That’s a good point about full inboxes.

BST doesn’t move as fast as I remember it in the past. Probably because the prices get inflated now. When the prices are above retail I would expect more bargaining is going on behind the scenes. I initially used PM sent because I assumed it was the convention. When I realized the experienced buyers weren’t doing it when purchasing from me I stopped. 
I think I would sell to anybody who has posted in this thread over someone with very few posts if the offers were similar and were received in a small time window. I prefer selling to members that I know or recognize.


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## Brian Weekley (Mar 29, 2020)

OK ... so you walk onto a car lot and find a car with a sticker price on it that you want to buy. You find the salesman, pull out your check book and say “Sold ... I’ll take it” ... The salesman says “hold on a minute ... I’m going to wait awhile to see if my friend wants to buy it ... or ... come back next week and I’ll decide who I’m going to sell it to ... or ... I’ve decided to increase the price ... or ... I won’t sell it to you because I don’t like the looks of you!

What would you do? What I would do is walk down the street and buy a car from a salesman who really wanted to sell it. No hard feelings except that the next time I wanted to buy a car, I wouldn’t even look at your lot. Why waste my time?

I’ve said may times that BST is full of good buys. My measure ... about six knives at any point in time. I don’t generally bargain or submit offers. If I want it I pay what the seller is asking. Because the seller is shipping to Canada I generally offer to pay a premium on the shipping cost. After the first transaction with a seller I generally use PayPal f&f. I consider every seller that I buy from to be my friend. Prove me wrong, I won’t whine or complain, I just won’t buy from you again. I don’t sell my knives ... they all become members of my family. Over the last year I’ve bought well north of a hundred knives. 40% were retail from dealers or customs from makers I trust. 30% were on the BST market. 30% were from friends who don’t want to see their knives flipped or abused in any way, or don’t want the hassle of low ball offers or interminable inane questions.

So .... the consensus is don’t say “Sold” in response to a BST post. OK ... when in Rome ... Don’t want me to say “Check your Mail” ... same thing I guess. Wait a day for the results of a lottery, or for somebody on the other side of the world to wake up, or for somebody to get home have a shower, dinner and settle down to check BST ... I don’t think so. Same thing as with the car salesman ... I’ll just move down the street and buy from a seller who really just wants to sell their knife. No hard feelings ... there are lots of places to buy knives. I’ve never had anybody that I’ve bought a knife from complain that it was unfair that they had to take my money.


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## Chuckles (Mar 29, 2020)

That’s a good example. If I opened my PMs and there was an offer from you and an offer from somebody with no buying history on the forum I would sell to you every time.


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## Brian Weekley (Mar 29, 2020)

Chuckles said:


> I would sell to you every time.




Were the offers equal to what you asked for in your BST post I would hope you would sell to the first reply you received. To me that seems fair and I’ve lost several knives without complaint because someone beat me with their earlier full price, all terms accepted offer.

Of course it’s your right to sell your property to whomever you wish and that’s perfectly good with me. My opinion is just my opinion. No more ... no less.


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## ian (Mar 29, 2020)

marc4pt0 said:


> I don’t use “pm sent”, but don’t mind it either. As a seller I use the time stamps of the actual PM’s if I receive multiple.
> I think the “PM sent” is a good thing though in a way. If seller’s inbox is full and unnoticed this type of post may alert them.



Man, I didn’t even know that inboxes could be full.




Brian Weekley said:


> Were the offers equal to what you asked for in your BST post I would hope you would sell to the first reply you received. To me that seems fair and I’ve lost several knives without complaint because someone beat me with their earlier full price, all terms accepted offer.
> 
> Of course it’s your right to sell your property to whomever you wish and that’s perfectly good with me. My opinion is just my opinion. No more ... no less.



@Chuckles does have a point, though. If you’re going to ostensibly do something like first come first served rather than a random choice, it’s more equitable to actually pick the first person. But most of us who are selling on BST aren’t doing enough business to be able to easily absorb a loss if something goes wrong with a given deal. I try (emphasis on try) to have a one knife in, one knife out rule, so if I don’t get paid for a knife I send, then that really sucks. Hence, if a bunch of offers come in nearly simultaneously, and one’s from @sketchyrndomdude666 with 5 posts, none with any content, and one is from you, I’ll be tempted to sell to you. That said, if both people are significantly contributing forum members, I’ll always pick the first one. Anyway, anyone can start contributing to the forum if they want, so preferring someone who’s a known quantity doesn’t necessarily scream discrimination to me.


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## tgfencer (Mar 29, 2020)

Brian Weekley said:


> OK ... so you walk onto a car lot and find a car with a sticker price on it that you want to buy. You find the salesman, pull out your check book and say “Sold ... I’ll take it” ... The salesman says “hold on a minute ... I’m going to wait awhile to see if my friend wants to buy it ... or ... come back next week and I’ll decide who I’m going to sell it to ... or ... I’ve decided to increase the price ... or ... I won’t sell it to you because I don’t like the looks of you!
> 
> What would you do? What I would do is walk down the street and buy a car from a salesman who really wanted to sell it. No hard feelings except that the next time I wanted to buy a car, I wouldn’t even look at your lot. Why waste my time?
> 
> ...



I understand your point of view, which is entirely valid. I think in a normal market I'd agree with you, but I don't think KKF is necessarily comparable. My main reasoning is that a car salesman is a business, operating on profit, paying business taxes, insurance, and all that accompanying jazz, whereas 99.9% of members here are not running a business.

For instance, I'm just a guy who occasionally sells knives and stones. For me, someone who has a knife hobby but also a job and real world problems to tackle, a KKF sale isn't all important and the prospective customer isn't always right. I'm not worried about repeat customers in the traditional sense because this isn't in any way my livelihood and it could very well be that I won't sell another item on KKF ever (haha, well, this may be somewhat unrealistic...). Unlike a car salesman to whom a car is a car and money is money, some knives are special to me and some knives maybe not so much, which means money isn't always the ultimate motivating factor. I've sold knives below my asking price to some members because I preferred to recoup less funds and see it go to someone for whom I knew it would be a special or meaningful possession. That's certainly something a car salesman would never do.

As for what people post in my sales threads I don't really care what people say, as long as it isn't disinformation, and I don't really mind people making offers via messages, since I can always say negotiate or just no thanks, no hard feelings. I don't discriminate based on any of these things and they wouldn't stop me selling to anyone. However, people expecting say next-day shipping or business levels of customer service and attention do sort of annoy me because, again, this is a hobby, not a business.

All things being equal, I like to be as equitable as possible, but it isn't always the deciding factor.


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## marc4pt0 (Mar 29, 2020)

I like the car lot analogy, but I would like to expand on that. For no real reason other than I’m just enjoying this topic, and I’m not working a brunch shift today. 

Say mr salesman is sitting at his desk, and he’s the only salesman on the clock at the moment because of social distancing etc. It’s very slow business, and he only has one car left in inventory to sell before he can close up and go home with a smile knowing “that deal is done”. He goes out back for a break, and upon his return he sees multiple people all looking at that one car. One person he recognizes as a repeat customer who may or may not have a cool trade in, but is again a valued repeat customer. The others may be together as on group, but the way they stand in divided groups maintaining Social D, he suspects not. 
When he walks towards them they all look up and are eager to be the first to strike a conversation over said car. Which one do you think he engages first? Sure, let’s throw in some supermodels in the other groups of various gender. Still, whom do you think he engages first? Let’s keep in mind that Mr Salesman just wants to sell the car on go home. 

If I’m selling a knife here, I generally go with the first request to buy, unless that person appears to be an unknown. But if I open my inbox and see multiple messages I might lean towards a person whom I’ve had multiple successful exchanges with in the past. Why? Because that person may have my unicorn Buckeye Burl Billipp in their possession and might perhaps one day let it go. Or I know it’ll be a quick and easy deal as it has been in previous deals. 

Ramble ramble ramble


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## Codered (Mar 29, 2020)

The way I see it "PM sent" is more like a first come first served notice to the seller and other buyers in terms of "there I made you an offer and i was here first". It is in many ways abusive towards the seller and other potential buyers trying to signal that the books are closed and if the seller doesn't follow on the offer, than that would not be ethical. Ofcourse this is totally wrong. BST rules say that via the PM the seller can continue negotiating for the sold item with all potential buyers. So if someone matched that price with a "PM sent" remark, it doesn't mean that the knife is his. If another follows with a better offer, than the seller is free to choose the best option. He did not sign a contract.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 29, 2020)

I started a very argumentative thread about a similar topic years ago that wasn't taken well. I stand by my initial thought, the BST threads need to be minimal posts i.e. GLWS are ridiculous. This topic is just another example.


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## Matus (Mar 29, 2020)

I mentioned it already elsewhere. There are fora where NO posts are allowed in BST threads - any questions about the item must be sent to the seller via and he or she may (or may not) then expand the listing description. I am not sure whether that would be something I would want KKF to implement.

Yes, the content-less posts in BST (especially when too many) decrease the readability, but on the other hand allow for that extra ‘socializing’.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Mar 29, 2020)

Hey Matus, yes I'm part of forums that you mention. I agree with the socialing aspect of forums and think its a balancing game. I know people have the best intentions, they just unintentionally add distraction to others (or as mentioned intentionally).


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## tgfencer (Mar 29, 2020)

I would add that a well thought out and constructed BST thread should have all the pertinent information and photos in the first post and thus rarely would there be a need to scroll any further unless curiosity drives you. 

In that sense then, maybe one key to a BST with better readability is simply for the seller to do a better job on his part from the very start.


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## labor of love (Mar 29, 2020)

I’m guilty of posting “PM sent“ in the past. Not too often, but I’ve done it. 
I had no idea that this could be considered distasteful to others. 
To me “PM sent” is a way of indicating to others that there’s interest in the knife, so if someone else is also interested they better also send a PM because it’s potentially close to being sold. I figured this actually helps the seller-showing a will to purchase a knife piques the interest of other guys that were perhaps straddling the fence.
Even if I didn’t walk away with the knife, maybe the nudge helps someone else make a decision.
Either way, I won’t do it anymore.


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## Hassanbensober (Mar 29, 2020)

I have only used Pm sent after waiting 1 hour or more for response to my original pm. I prefer to strike in silence but sometimes have to impatiently shake the tree. Seeing someone else’s pm sent has never stopped me from inquiring about a interesting item and have still won sales after. I think bst would be quite boring if it was silent and quite enjoy everyone else’s comments.


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## marc4pt0 (Mar 29, 2020)

There's been numerous times I see a "PM sent" post in a sell thread of mine only to check my inbox to find that person simply sent a question and did not buy. 

So I say even if you see 20 posts saying "PM sent", don't be discouraged. Send a message any ways. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take


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## Brian Weekley (Mar 29, 2020)

I like @tgfencer ’s point. This isn’t a business in the “making a living” sense and as I said, a person has a right to sell their property to whomever they wish. I guess the same applies if a person wants to post “PM Sent”. Gak! ... when will this virus be over so that we can get back to significant posts like ... “do you get better patina on a stainless blade with a yellow onion”! Now ... there’s something that’s important.


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## milkbaby (Mar 29, 2020)

As a supporting member I vote leaving the BST rules as is to allow "PM sent", "GLWS", and other random non-negative posts on the threads. I like the socializing aspect, cool to see what other people say.


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## dafox (Mar 29, 2020)

As a seller, I would rather not see "PM sent" as I think it might discourage someone interested in purchasing my item from contacting me. As a purchaser, I am encouraged, based on what others have said, to contact the seller despite seeing a 'PM sent" as the item may still be available. 
On another note, I have always taken the first to contact we as the "winner" and not looked for someone else who may be offering more. I never thought of the possibility of someone offering more.


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## marc4pt0 (Mar 29, 2020)

I think holding out for someone else to offer more after another buyer had already offered asking price is just tacky. EW.
Obviously if someone offered less than asking price it would be ok to hold off and wait.


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## soigne_west (Mar 29, 2020)

Agreed that holding out for more money is whack. I think generally first come first serve is the way to go. But under certain circumstances I would rather see a knife stay in the family. Back to the car reference. If I were selling a car, and a friend or family member offered me the same price as a stranger, I would probably sell to the friend/family member.


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## bahamaroot (Mar 29, 2020)

Back when I first became a member most sellers used to say "first post saying 'I'll take it' followed by PM gets it." I think this started the evolution of people feeling the need to post "PM sent" in a BST thread to have a better chance at getting the item.

Some may find it annoying but I see no need for new rules or moderation here.


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## M1k3 (Mar 29, 2020)

Brian Weekley said:


> I like @tgfencer ’s point. This isn’t a business in the “making a living” sense and as I said, a person has a right to sell their property to whomever they wish. I guess the same applies if a person wants to post “PM Sent”. Gak! ... when will this virus be over so that we can get back to significant posts like ... “do you get better patina on a stainless blade with a yellow onion”! Now ... there’s something that’s important.



Some constructive criticism, this post needs more carrots.
I approve otherwise.


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## tgfencer (Mar 29, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> Back when I first became a member most sellers used to say "first post saying 'I'll take it' followed by PM gets it." I think this started the evolution of people feeling the need to post "PM sent" in a BST thread to have a better chance at getting the item.
> 
> Some may find it annoying but I see no need for new rules or moderation here.



Yeah I think you have something there. I could have sworn it used to be much more common than it is now but couldn’t really remember any reasons as to why.


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## McMan (Mar 29, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Some constructive criticism, this post needs more carrots.
> I approve otherwise.


Power move with the new avatar man!


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## daveb (Mar 29, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Some constructive criticism, this post needs more carrots.
> I approve otherwise.



Someone doesn't have enough to do


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## M1k3 (Mar 29, 2020)

daveb said:


> Someone doesn't have enough to do



Uhh yeah! I hate working FoH and I volunteered to work FoH! I haven't worked in 10 days!

Eat your carrots!


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## gregfisk (Mar 29, 2020)

I spent many years on an audio forum and usually PM sent was just a way of notifying the seller that well, they had a PM. I don’t think it ever discouraged anyone from making an offer and in fact could give someone a boost to make their own offer. I did notice certain people on the forum would constantly write PM sent and send lowball offers. Then the seller would have to post still available right after. I don’t see a problem with writing PM sent or why it would bother anyone.

I do have a problem with people not selling to the first person to offer full price. I get why someone would do it but I don’t think it’s right.

That bothers me the same way some people on Craig’s list sell. You are the first to respond but the seller tells you first come first serve. If I tell someone I’ll buy it and I’m on my way I expect them to hold the item for me. Not sell it to someone who shows up right before me.


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## ian (Mar 29, 2020)

gregfisk said:


> I do have a problem with people not selling to the first person to offer full price. I get why someone would do it but I don’t think it’s right.



This has been covered in other threads, but people seem to think that PayPal protects the buyer more than the seller, and that a buyer can (for example) just claim the item wasn't received and then the seller will forfeit the earnings, even if the knife was sent. I haven't verified these claims, and I don't know how prevalent this kind of behavior is on forums, but talk about this does give me pause. (I've never had a bad selling experience.) And if one can ensure a good transaction by selling to someone who's a known quantity and responded basically at the same time as the first person, then what's the harm? 

It's kind of the same thing as a credit check, except your credit is your reputation here. The seller here is assuming some sort of risk, so just like a bank is not going to give a loan to someone with a crap credit score, it's not unreasonable for a seller to prioritize this over a 5 minute difference in time. 



gregfisk said:


> If I tell someone I’ll buy it and I’m on my way I expect them to hold the item for me. Not sell it to someone who shows up right before me.



Sure, but you'd also wait for a response before starting on your way, right? I'm not sure this is an accurate comparison.



------


Man, these kind of threads are great ways to waste time after the kid goes down. It's so easy to get worked up when writing --- I probably sound like I have strong opinions about this above. But whatever really... I'm just looking for human connection.


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## Michi (Mar 29, 2020)

When I sell on eBay, I post the time with tracking and signature required at the other end. No arguments about whether the item was received or not that way.


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## panda (Mar 29, 2020)

i dont care if who ever sent an offer first, if i want it im going to sweet talk you into selling it to me instead.  besides most people lowball. if i think asking price is fair i just straight up tell them 'hey i'll take it, i can send payment right meow'


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## mise_en_place (Mar 30, 2020)

My biggest issue with "PM sent" is when it is a necrobump. 

Other than that, I find it largely innocuous. In my experience as a seller, 50% of "PM sents" are an acceptance of terms. The other half are questions or lowball offers.


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## Marek07 (Apr 1, 2020)

When I first started buying on BST, I posted "PM sent" because it looked like it was the thing to do. Besides, I figured I'd get the seller's attention in a few keystrokes ahead of a lengthier PM. Eventually realised it wasn't needed. I'm a slow learner. Didn't even think offers were appropriate - I used to wait for a price drop.

Bottom line: I don't think saying PM sent does any harm. It certainly doesn't warrant rules or moderator intervention.


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## Midsummer (Apr 1, 2020)

Marek07 said:


> When I first started buying on BST, I posted "PM sent" because it looked like it was the thing to do. Besides, I figured I'd get the seller's attention in a few keystrokes ahead of a lengthier PM. Eventually realised it wasn't needed. I'm a slow learner. Didn't even think offers were appropriate - I used to wait for a price drop.
> 
> Bottom line: I don't think saying PM sent does any harm. It certainly doesn't warrant rules or moderator intervention.



Getting rid of “PM sent” seems an extension of not allowing adverse comments to be posted in BST threads. It is clear that we have decided to protect the sellers in BST threads. Rhetoric that may dissuade potential buyers is generally forbidden.

It is obvious that “PM sent“ will discourage naive buyers. This disadvantages sellers.

It is probably too much to think that even this exceptional group of people can act rationally. But, I am a little surprised that the moderation team has swerved from their principles.


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## ian (Apr 1, 2020)

Midsummer said:


> Getting rid of “PM sent” seems an extension of not allowing adverse comments to be posted in BST threads. It is clear that we have decided to protect the sellers in BST threads. Rhetoric that may dissuade potential buyers is generally forbidden.
> 
> It is obvious that “PM sent“ will discourage naive buyers. This disadvantages sellers.
> 
> It is probably too much to think that even this exceptional group of people can act rationally. But, I am a little surprised that the moderation team has swerved from their principles.



This comment is a little overboard. It’s one thing to not want BST to be a home for vitriol, and another to be concerned that some new users may misinterpret a factual reply given.

I would at most include a line in the rules saying “PM sent” doesn’t indicate a sale, just to inform newbies about the culture here, but otherwise it’s fine as is.


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## tgfencer (Apr 1, 2020)

Midsummer said:


> It is obvious that “PM sent“ will discourage naive buyers. This disadvantages sellers.
> 
> It is probably too much to think that even this exceptional group of people can act rationally. But, I am a little surprised that the moderation team has swerved from their principles.



I'm not sure it is obvious. It honestly had never occurred me before this thread and I'm assuming that means I'm probably not the only one. 

And let's be totally clear- Matus asked for folks opinions whether they felt the matter needed to be seriously addressed (an idea for which there does not seem to be much support judging by the responses). I don't see how you can label a call for opinions "as moderators swerving from their principles." I can never understand why people are so quick to take pot shots at the mods on here. They aren't the police or some tyrannical government, for the most part they're fellow members and friends who are also stepping up to help run this community forum.

@ian- That idea seems a fair compromise to protect without over-policing.


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## Midsummer (Apr 1, 2020)

ian said:


> This comment is a little overboard. It’s one thing to not want BST to be a home for vitriol, and another to be concerned that some new users may misinterpret a factual reply given.
> 
> I would at most include a line in the rules saying “PM sent” doesn’t indicate a sale, just to inform newbies about the culture here, but otherwise it’s fine as is.



My comments were a bit over the top. I thought about reporting myself. The mods have been excellent and have had to take care of some really difficult problems at times; kudos to them and my apologies for stirring the pot.

That said, to be consistent in intent and messaging is something we should all strive for in our actions and discussions.

I also agree that a suggestion such as ian has given will accomplish this. In any case I have stirred the pot enough.


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## tchan001 (Jun 3, 2020)

In the past as a buyer, I'd be discouraged from contacting the seller with an offer when I see "PM sent" in the thread, but having witnessed many cases where that message led to no real action I'd encourage eager buyers to continue to contact the seller to get in line just in case the sales doesn't go through. Sometimes even a post saying "pm sent I’ll take it" has later returned a msg from the seller on the thread that the knife is available again. So if you really like a knife, don't hesitate even if it looks like someone else may be in front of you.

On another note, I really enjoy the social aspect of positive constructive comments on beautiful knives. Sometimes I have bought knives on BST after I understood better how to appreciate certain knives which I was less knowledgeable about.


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## Tristan (Jun 3, 2020)

My opinion on the matter is that members shouldn't shill for others. 
On PM sent, I've learned not to let it stop me from making offers. 
Would be good to see though a substantiation of PM content, so others and OT can decide if there is merit in bothering.
1. PM sent (lowball offer)
2. PM sent (questions)
3. PM sent (I'll take it payment incoming)


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## valgard (Jun 3, 2020)

I think it's fine . If you want the knife just send your own message just in case.


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## JakeLoveshighCarbon (Jun 4, 2020)

I appreciate the PM sent. It means I dont have to agonize over buying the knife anymore. My response thus far has always been "thank god."

Plus, it's not worth policing people over.


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## M1k3 (Jun 4, 2020)

JakeLoveshighCarbon said:


> I appreciate the PM sent. It means I dont have to agonize over buying the knife anymore. My response thus far has always been "thank god."
> 
> Plus, it's not worth policing people over.


But what if it's just that. PM sent. And the PM was just asking about specs. And those specs don't meet the messagers needs so then it sits there? The horror!


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## soigne_west (Jun 4, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> But what if it's just that. PM sent. And the PM was just asking about specs



Or just a really funny joke...


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## JakeLoveshighCarbon (Jun 4, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> But what if it's just that. PM sent. And the PM was just asking about specs. And those specs don't meet the messagers needs so then it sits there? The horror!



*shrug* you're right of course. One should negotiate without stating PM sent. It's not a cool thing to do, but it hasn't bothered me so far.


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## ModRQC (Jun 4, 2020)

Two knives sold lately. Not any of the two after a "PM sent". Did get a "PM sent". Never got an answer after answering. Knife is still up for sale. Someone else has PM me about it - without saying so in my post. He could probably be a more serious buyer is my first instinct.

I don't care either way, I was on a forum once where "PM sent" was a time binder, and unless the buyer obviously wasn't serious, it meant that the seller had to give first PM priority. Borderline excessive but this had come up after a big fight and was devised in a way to make it understand that it was a mean to avoid confusion around an item for sale. If the item was really wanted, PM sent was very closely followed with Sold most of the times. When it didn't, people simply inquired on the thread if the item was still for sale, and PM sent could be added as to create a second time binder if nothing came out of the first.


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## Carl Kotte (Jun 4, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> Or just a really funny joke...



That’s what seal said!


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## M1k3 (Jun 4, 2020)

soigne_west said:


> Or just a really funny joke...


GLWS


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 4, 2020)

Other hobby forum I’ve been with use public posting of “I’ll take it” & discourage PM deals which breeds monkey business at times. It’s a more fare system to the buyers IMHO.

KKF PM transaction dominated system took me a while to get used to, but it’s a system that gives seller an upper hand in multiple ways. It’s not a first come first serve culture.

If the seller realized price was listed too low due to multiple offers, seller can withdraw & realist later.

If the seller saw a repeat buyer PM, he may pick that person to cut the line for reduced transaction risk. 

It also encourages buyers to submit high offer to cut the line if it’s something that he really wants & the sellers could end up selling at higher than asking price.

In a nutshell, KKF PM culture system is pro seller, where other systems are pro buyer. Depends on which side you are on, you may like or dislike. For someone like me, doing 50:50 one knife in one knife out, it doesn’t matter either way.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jun 4, 2020)

This isn't Walmart, the seller can sell to whom or for whatever they want. Not sure why fairness is relevant, my observations are the vast majority of members have the best intentions so I give them the benefit of the doubt...instead of assuming the worst.


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 4, 2020)

AFKitchenknivesguy said:


> This isn't Walmart, the seller can sell to whom or for whatever they want. Not sure why fairness is relevant, my observations are the vast majority of members have the best intentions so I give them the benefit of the doubt...instead of assuming the worst.



I agree in KKF at the moment, that seller can sell to whoever they want, it’s because the forum’s current pro-seller policy, Walmart reference is irrelevant. 

In making my points, I’ve only selected three examples that I personally experienced, those were not assumptions. 

However, at end of the day, the OP’s questions really belong to Forum owners/admins, who run a forum with greater concerns in mind. Frankly speaking, your opinions don’t mean much, neither are mine. 

If one would ask, strategically for KKF, what policy, pro-seller or pro-buyer, would stimulate the greater membership growth & long term health? 

I’d look at the most successful C to C direct selling platform, eBay, for answers. The policy in place at eBay is clearly pro-buyer, like it or not, call it flea bay if you wish, it’s still #1.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Jun 4, 2020)

I agree this topic is the mods/owners decision, not ours. Not seeing what you mean by the Walmart analogy. The FTC doesn't have control over the private market, unlike Walmart, hence the analogy. It is relevant.


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## panda (Jun 4, 2020)

I'm still laughing at the butt hurt that ensued. What a stupid reason to get upset over.


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## M1k3 (Jun 4, 2020)

panda said:


> I'm still laughing at the butt hurt that ensued. What a stupid reason to get upset over.


That's what sea said. And the girl.


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## bahamaroot (Jun 4, 2020)

Talk about taking a simple and harmless subject and making it overly complicated...


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## cotedupy (Jun 8, 2020)

As a new member I had no idea about any of these various meanings.

I wrote 'pm sent' or similar when buying a knife recently, and then was a bit surprised when someone afterwards said they wanted to buy the same. I had just assumed it was a way of saying I was happy to buy the knife at the price (rather than trying to make some kind of deal).

So it might then be an idea to put something in the BST Guidelines explaining that it doesn't always mean a deal is done.


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## Barmoley (Jun 8, 2020)

Why is everyone adding meaning to a simple two word phrase. The message is clear pm was sent, why some people post this and some don't I don't know, but what is there to discuss? Interested in an item contact the seller, what is so hard about it?


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## panda (Jun 8, 2020)

i feel excluded when people post pm sent because i didnt send one.


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## SHOWERDOOKIE (Jun 8, 2020)

panda said:


> i feel excluded when people post pm sent because i didnt send one.


I feel like this captures the nature of any issues people have with someone saying ‘pm sent’ in that the issues would probably be organic to the situation. Any arguing points are opinion based behind the connotation you had when you publicly stated that you already privately messaged someone


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## tostadas (Jun 8, 2020)

If nothing else, it's a free bump


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

Just what @ian was looking for.
PM sent. I'll take it.


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## ian (Jun 8, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Just what @ian was looking for.
> PM sent. I'll take it.



my free bump days are behind me now. marriage is wonderful and I wouldn’t trade it for anything, but I’m not sure I’d call it free.


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## parbaked (Jun 8, 2020)

I like to post "PM sent" before I send a low ball offer to the seller.
Keeps the competition away...


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## panda (Jun 8, 2020)

tostadas said:


> If nothing else, it's a free bump


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## Mariner (Jun 8, 2020)

In another BST forum "PM sent" is required for several reasons:

It provides a public record of transactions and attempted transactions.
Bad actors are easier to spot - if a buyer is repeatedly sending a ridiculous lowball offer in PM and getting rejected, mods of that forum can reach out and investigate.
Conversely, it prevents bad actors on the seller side. When a seller is repeatedly selling to a late reply it can be a signal they're looking for a dupe. Or that earlier replies got nervous but didn't have evidence directly of a scam to report to mods.


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## Barmoley (Jun 8, 2020)

Mariner said:


> In another BST forum "PM sent" is required for several reasons:
> 
> It provides a public record of transactions and attempted transactions.
> Bad actors are easier to spot - if a buyer is repeatedly sending a ridiculous lowball offer in PM and getting rejected, mods of that forum can reach out and investigate.
> Conversely, it prevents bad actors on the seller side. When a seller is repeatedly selling to a late reply it can be a signal they're looking for a dupe. Or that earlier replies got nervous but didn't have evidence directly of a scam to report to mods.


2 and 3 don't make sense to me. What is wrong with sending lowball offers. Some people are looking for deals, don't take it personally. I've received many low ball offers for many knives I've sold. I don't take it personally just don't sell if the price is lower than what I am willing to take. 3 also what is wrong with a seller waiting if the seller wants to look at many offers. There is no rule that a seller has to sell to the first offer even if at asking price. It would be nice and most sellers follow this practice, but there is no such rule as far as I know.


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

Like everything else, today's "PM sent" is not what it meants to be.
For one it just means " I sent a pm", for others it means "Dont even think to offer something, I already closed the deal", for third it means "Well....another donkey....Let me see what the next donkey would offer..."
From forum owners/moderator's perspective, I guess it means "Business goes on, that means everyting is OK". I guess.

We should not forget that fairness is a basic principle. Would you be happy with a knife (or the money from a knife) after you did not act fair? Well, if the answer is positive, whatever anyone say about the "PM sent", you will find a reason to defend another point.
If the answer is negative, then you know when and how to use "PM sent".


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

The only thing that should stop a buyer from interacting with the seller is when the seller says it's sold/spf/withdrawn/etc.


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## labor of love (Jun 8, 2020)

I need to all sellers from now on to list both selling price and absolute lowest lowball price they will accept so I don’t have to keep posting PM sent all the time to find out.


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

labor of love said:


> I need to all sellers from now on to list both selling price and absolute lowest lowball price they will accept so I don’t have to keep posting PM sent all the time to find out.


GLWS


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

I never bought a knife, thus never sent "PM sent". Now I realise what happens "behind the curtains".
And I am not happy with it.


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> I never bought a knife, thus never sent "PM sent". Now I realise what happens "behind the curtains".
> And I am not happy with it.


Specs requests?  
Or am I missing some action?


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## parbaked (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> Now I realise what happens "behind the curtains".
> And I am not happy with it.


That's what she said...


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Specs requests?
> Or am I missing some action?


"Specs request"? Come on, this is not something you need to ask privately...Right?
So dont pretend you are missing something (if I understand you correctly)
.


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> "Specs request"? Come on, this is not something you need to ask privately...Right?
> So dont pretend you are missing something (if I understand you correctly)
> .


Trade offers? Questions about alternative payment methods? Nudies? Alternative shipping arrangements? Requests to use a shipping proxy (has and does happen)?


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## Barmoley (Jun 8, 2020)

OK, maybe I am missing something.

The original question was does "PM sent" discourage potential buyers therefore hurting the seller and thus needs to be banned. Then, some people complained that "PM sent" is a form of bullying because it prevents them from making an offer due to it indicating that the item will be sold to that person. Now, if "PM sent" indicates a sale, which is odd, since the seller is in control of the sell and not the buyer, then the next person is too late. In this case no bullying happened as you were too late. If it does not indicate a sale then you can ignore it and still not be bullied, just make an offer. 

Now, that we've established that there is no case in which "PM sent" is a bullying tactic let's see if it hurts the seller. Most sellers reply still available after "PM Sent" to make sure no one is confused. If the seller doesn't do this and looses a sale because of it, it is seller's fault and laziness. So seems like it only hurts lazy sellers.

As far as what goes on behind the scenes. "PM sent" in no way affects anything behind the scenes, all it does is show you that someone else beside you is interested in talking to the seller, it would show market interest so to speak if everyone did it. Since not everyone does it, it doesn't do this either, at least not well. PMs are not visible to anyone else, so you don't know if anyone is interested or what discussions take place anyway.

So "PM sent" is pretty useless by all accounts, but to forbid it makes absolutely no sense.


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Trade offers? Questions about alternative payment methods? Nudies? Alternative shipping arrangements? Requests to use a shipping proxy (has and does happen)?


Ofc! Weather forecast at the destination, weather forecast at the selling point (to see how it might affect the patina), the kindney status of the seller's grand dad....Stars position and how it affects the particular sale...Whatver you can imagine, but WHY on a PM?


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## ian (Jun 8, 2020)

I have no idea what is going on here.


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## Barmoley (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> Ofc! Weather forecast at the destination, weather forecast at the selling point (to see how it might affect the patina), the kindney status of the seller's grand dad....Stars position and how it affects the particular sale...Whatver you can imagine, but WHY on a PM?


Perhaps because of competitive advantage. If everyone knows the kidney status of seller's grand dad then your low ball offer might not work because others will offer kidneys.


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## daveb (Jun 8, 2020)

It's an interesting discussion.

But.

Nothing I've read as a mod is a compelling reason to change the guidelines or rules for bst.


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> As far as what goes on behind the scenes. "PM sent" in no way affects anything behind the scenes, all it does is show you that someone else beside you is interested in talking to the seller


I wonder what mods thinkk about this statement.
For ex, if myself start from now on texting "PM sent" on every BST. I will send PMs saying to the seller how much I like the knife...Or "r u crazy with this price?" Everything would be "interest in talking to the seller" Right?


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

daveb said:


> It's an interesting discussion.
> 
> But.
> 
> Nothing I've read as a mod is a compelling reason to change the guidelines or rules for bst.


What would happen if you dig into BST threads and PMs related to them? May you find actions braking the guidelines? Or compelling reasons to change the guidelines?


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## labor of love (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> I wonder what mods thinkk about this statement.
> For ex, if myself start from now on texting "PM sent" on every BST. I will send PMs taling to the seller how much I like the knife...Or "r u crazy with this price?" Everything would be "interest in talking to the seller" Right?


I mean, you’ll just look like a butthole. Which is normally permitted here. Just don’t brake any rules.


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## Barmoley (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> I wonder what mods thinkk about this statement.
> For ex, if myself start from now on texting "PM sent" on every BST. I will send PMs taling to the seller how much I like the knife...Or "r u crazy with this price?" Everything would be "interest in talking to the seller" Right?


You can do that, if you want to be that guy. It is on you, you don't need mods to tell you when you are doing something ridiculous, do you? Do you really need another rule to tell you that what you are doing is wrong? BST works reasonably well, most members here are reasonable and decent people. If you are saying this is not the case then your experience has been very different from mine.


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> You can do that, if you want to be that guy.


I wont do it. The question is what would happen if majority start doing it for whatever reason....Because, as we see from the various posts on this thread, it is exactly what happens - Some ppl use it for this, others for that, etc. etc.
Everybody has a good reason. "Good" reason.


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## labor of love (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> I wont do it. The question is what would happen if majority start doing it for whatever reason....Because, as we see from the various posts on this thread, it is exactly what happens - Some ppl use it for this, others for that, etc. etc.
> Everybody has a good reason. "Good" reason.


You just joined the forum like 2 months ago right?


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

labor of love said:


> You just joined the forum like 2 months ago right?


"Just" is a hint for what?


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## Barmoley (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> I wont do it. The question is what would happen if majority start doing it for whatever reason....Because, as we see from the various posts on this thread, it is exactly what happens - Some ppl use it for this, others for that, etc. etc.
> Everybody has a good reason. "Good" reason.


You are talking about a hypothetical situation, what you describe just doesn't happen. We don't need rules about stuff that doesn't happen. This is a very decent community, stick around, you will see. Let adults be adults, we don't need protection and hand holding with everything.


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

ian said:


> I have no idea what is going on here.


PM sent.


valdim said:


> I wonder what mods thinkk about this statement.
> For ex, if myself start from now on texting "PM sent" on every BST. I will send PMs saying to the seller how much I like the knife...Or "r u crazy with this price?" Everything would be "interest in talking to the seller" Right?


They'll think how annoying.


valdim said:


> What would happen if you dig into BST threads and PMs related to them? May you find actions braking the guidelines? Or compelling reasons to change the guidelines?


I don't know. Sonnets and love songs? Drug and gun deals?


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> You are talking about a hypothetical situation, what you describe just doesn't happen. We don't need rules about stuff that doesn't happen. This is a very decent community, stick around, you will see. Let adults be adults, we don't need protection and hand holding with everything.


I see a lot of generalizing in this statement - "what you describe just doesn't happen". How did you come to that conclusion? Reading others PMs? "We don't need rules about stuff that doesn't happen." Again - how do u know what happens?
"We"? Are you authorized to generalize on behalf of the whole community? Congrats!


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## labor of love (Jun 8, 2020)

How do you know I don’t know all things?


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

labor of love said:


> How do you know I don’t know all things?


Ah. On the opposite - I know you know all things. You know even beyond these (all things). Right?


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> PM sent.
> 
> They'll think how annoying.
> 
> I don't know. Sonnets and love songs? Drug and gun deals?


That was good, man. Thanks for the jokes. I appreciate it.


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## labor of love (Jun 8, 2020)

You’re arguing to take away our freedom to be annoying. This will not stand, man.


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

labor of love said:


> You’re arguing to take away our freedom to be annoying. This will not stand, man.


LOL....ok....
I give up, subdued by the purity of your believes. I agree - this will never stand.Never , ever.....


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## Barmoley (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> I see a lot of generalizing in this statement - "what you describe just doesn't happen". How did you come to that conclusion? Reading others PMs? "We don't need rules about stuff that doesn't happen." Again - how do u know what happens?
> "We"? Are you authorized to generalize on behalf of the whole community? Congrats!


Experience and common sense. As part of the community I can generalize for the community as can you, which is what you are doing. I am generalizing that the community is good your are saying it is bad and needs more rules. I think you are forgetting the context of this discussion. We are discussing if "PM sent" should be banned. Having it or not does not in any way prevent any sort of shenanigans behind the scenes through PMs. Moreover following is part of the rules for this forum.

_*Any agreement negotiated between the buyer and seller via pm is between them and KKF has no interest in it. *_


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> I see a lot of generalizing in this statement - "what you describe just doesn't happen". How did you come to that conclusion? Reading others PMs? "We don't need rules about stuff that doesn't happen." Again - how do u know what happens?
> "We"? Are you authorized to generalize on behalf of the whole community? Congrats!


Can you please post all private communications you've had over the past 6 months? Because I don't know what kind of bad stuff I can think up that you may possibly be doing but probably aren't. But just to be safe, please publish your communications for the mods to look over.


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

> Experience and common sense. As part of the community I can generalize for the community as can you, which is what you are doing. I am generalizing that the community is good your are saying it is bad and needs more rules. I think you are forgetting the context of this discussion. We are discussing if "PM sent" should be banned. Having it or not does not in any way prevent any sort of shenanigans behind the scenes through PMs. Moreover following is part of the rules for this forum.
> 
> _*Any agreement negotiated between the buyer and seller via pm is between them and KKF has no interest in it.*_



As I said, I give up subdued by the purity of your believes. Let be the experience and common sense.


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Can you please post all private communications you've had over the past 6 months? Because I don't know what kind of bad stuff I can think up that you may possibly be doing but probably aren't. But just to be safe, please publish your communications for the mods to look over.


If I do it, I would post it as a PM to you. Then I would have to kill you...You dont want this.


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## labor of love (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> As I said, I give up subdued by the purity of your believes. Let be the experience and common sense.


I know. I know. We’re a brutal and oppressive forum unwilling to bring about new “pm sent” reforms the people so desperately need. Just continue the good fight good man. I won’t rest until one day we do away with PMs all together. It’s what’s best for an honest and open society.


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## ian (Jun 8, 2020)

Daveb is my god. Daveb says the rules are what they are. Do not question Daveb. This conversation is contentless and futile.


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> If I do it, I would post it as a PM to you. Then I would have to kill you...You dont want this.


That's racist.


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> That's racist.


PM not sent.


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> PM not sent.


I feel threatened now.


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## panda (Jun 8, 2020)

I find it hilarious someone would even have issue with posting pm sent. That's just as pathetic as crying about a thread about knives of their wives..


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## valdim (Jun 8, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I feel threatened now.


I find THE ABOVE hilarious.


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## daveb (Jun 8, 2020)

valdim said:


> "We"? Are you authorized to generalize on behalf of the whole community? Congrats!



I am. But really don't like to.



M1k3 said:


> But just to be safe, please publish your communications for the mods to look over.



I can assure you the mods have no interest in reading anyone elses PMs. None. If this was not a community of adults, I would not be here. And before anyone asks, Ian got a waiver.


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## madelinez (Jun 8, 2020)

The majority of long time members are pretty honorable folk, it's why so many people sell rare knives at cost instead of flipping. That fact alone should highlight that people won't engage in bad behavior just because there isn't a rule preventing them. 

Why are we arguing for more rules when the system works well?


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## bahamaroot (Jun 8, 2020)

Confucius say..."PM sent" or not, PMs will still be sent....


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> Confucius say..."PM sent" or not, PMs will still be sent....


I'm more of a fan of Schrödinger. Confucius is cool also. Along with Yoda.


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## ian (Jun 8, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> I'm more of a fan of Schrödinger. Confucius is cool also. Along with Yoda.



You owe me $5.

Edit: ****, do I now owe you $5 too? I can't remember.


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## M1k3 (Jun 8, 2020)

ian said:


> You owe me $5.
> 
> Edit: ****, do I now owe you $5 too? I can't remember.


So we owe like $25 because maths is hard yo?


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 9, 2020)

To PM or not to PM, that is the question....(even Shakespeare had this dilemma)


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## valdim (Jun 9, 2020)

madelinez said:


> The majority of long time members are pretty honorable folk, it's why so many people sell rare knives at cost instead of flipping. That fact alone should highlight that people won't engage in bad behavior just because there isn't a rule preventing them.


*Absolutely agree. *That is why I love this forum and I love all of you guys (and girls). No exception.


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## valdim (Jun 9, 2020)

daveb said:


> Ian got a waiver.


Hm....I did not get this. Whould you clarify, daveb?


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## valgard (Jun 9, 2020)

ian said:


> I have no idea what is going on here.


Can I hop on that boat?


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## valgard (Jun 9, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> Confucius say..."PM sent" or not, PMs will still be sent....


This  
Finally!


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## Luftmensch (Jun 9, 2020)

valgard said:


> Can I hop on that boat?


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## ian (Jun 9, 2020)

valdim said:


> Hm....I did not get this. Whould you clarify, daveb?







Apologies that it is crumpled. I was pissed off by dave’s tone when I got it.


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## valdim (Jun 9, 2020)

ian said:


> View attachment 83412
> 
> Apologies that it is crumpled. I was pissed off by dave’s tone when I got it.


Ah...now I see. Very tough conditon to follow, ian...


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## Brian Weekley (Jun 9, 2020)

I used to post “Sold ... check your mail“ when I was prepared to buy an item at the price and terms posted. ... “Check your mail” when I made an offer or had a question. Then I learned that on this forum those words intimidated some people so now I post nothing. Made no difference to my purchases. When in Rome ....


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## Edge (Jun 9, 2020)

ian said:


> I have no idea what is going on here.



just fussin


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## Edge (Jun 9, 2020)

valdim said:


> I see a lot of generalizing in this statement - "what you describe just doesn't happen". How did you come to that conclusion? Reading others PMs? "We don't need rules about stuff that doesn't happen." Again - how do u know what happens?
> "We"? Are you authorized to generalize on behalf of the whole community? Congrats!



Relax, and when you move to a new place in internet or real life, you don't try to change it. Not good manners.
The members that have been here awhile are doing fine. You can do fine also, if you choose to become part of the forum and not someone that moves in and wants changes.


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## Edge (Jun 9, 2020)

ian said:


> Daveb is my god. Daveb says the rules are what they are. Do not question Daveb. This conversation is contentless and futile.



I agree.


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## Edge (Jun 9, 2020)

no


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## M1k3 (Jun 9, 2020)

Angie said:


> View attachment 83443
> 
> 
> no


Welp, Daveb's creator has spoken.


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## valdim (Jun 9, 2020)

Angie said:


> Relax, and when you move to a new place in internet or real life, you don't try to change it. Not good manners.
> The members that have been here awhile are doing fine. You can do fine also, if you choose to become part of the forum and not someone that moves in and wants changes.


I see no relation between the quoted text and the free, unasked advices below it. If I was claiming "PMs should be removed frm BST!" then I see a point in relaxing.
But who am I to show the weaknesses of a (forum member's) statement? Pure logic and good arguments is not enough.


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## Colin (Jun 9, 2020)

I will typically just pm the seller without saying anything in the thread. I think the thread is more for questions and general comments about the item in question. 

In reguards to whom the knife goes, I don't like that sellers favor some users over others. I know I have lost out on multiple purchases not because I was not first, but because I was unknown. I understand that the item in question is ultimately owned by the seller, and they get to choose who purchases their knife, but something about that irks me. I think the 1st offer should get the knife. I understand both sides to it though, because sometimes the first offer is from someone who you don't trust. Its kind of a chicken before the egg argument. A person comes to BST to build their collection and get more experience, but can't get a knife because they are unknown, but can't contribute until they have more experience with Jknives.


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## ian (Jun 9, 2020)

I’m not so


Colin said:


> I will typically just pm the seller without saying anything in the thread. I think the thread is more for questions and general comments about the item in question.
> 
> In reguards to whom the knife goes, I don't like that sellers favor some users over others. I know I have lost out on multiple purchases not because I was not first, but because I was unknown. I understand that the item in question is ultimately owned by the seller, and they get to choose who purchases their knife, but something about that irks me. I think the 1st offer should get the knife. I understand both sides to it though, because sometimes the first offer is from someone who you don't trust. Its kind of a chicken beofre the egg argument. A person comes to BST to build their collection and get more experience, but can't get a knife because they are unknown, but can't contribute until they have more experience with Jknives.



I hear your frustration here. But you can also buy from vendors, it's not like BST is the only place to get a J knife. I think 90% of us (me included) bought our first few J knives from vendors, not from BST. Also, you're contributing now, aren't you?

I think it's fine if BST is a place for a community of friends to exchange knives. I know some people really want it to be first come first served, and it's good to spread the wealth to new people, but there's considerable risk in these paypal transactions so it's not unreasonable that people want to sell to people that are at least known members of the community. There's also financial motivation, because usually with a friend you'll often use a friends and family transaction, which eliminates paypal fees. And also, maybe the person who replied second lives in the same town or state as you, in which case you save on postage. It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's fine.

FWIW, the 1st come 1st serve philosophy is also not "fair" in any absolute way. It favors people who check KKF like every 5 minutes. (I may be one of those people...) Lots of people have jobs where they can't check their phone every second. And it also encourages people to obsessively refresh when they could be doing something else, which is collectively unhealthy. One list that I contribute to has lotteries for high value items, where someone is picked randomly after 24 hours, in order to address this.

I support the current system of "mostly first come first served", and I don't think I've ever actually sold to someone who didn't reply first. (Can't remember.) But many here seem to think of a knife as rightfully theirs if they reply first, whereas a "first come first served" philosophy is as much a convention as anything else.


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## bahamaroot (Jun 9, 2020)

I once saw someone post "I'll take it if still available", that might infer they actually bought the knife and turn others away. 
I think they should have posed "PM sent" and sent a PM. I think we need another rule!


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## daveb (Jun 9, 2020)

For every rule we add, we must take two away.


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## ian (Jun 9, 2020)

daveb said:


> For every rule we add, we must take two away.



Is that a rule?


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 9, 2020)

PM sent


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## M1k3 (Jun 9, 2020)

ian said:


> Is that a rule?


It should be. What 2 rules should be taken away to implement it?


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## WPerry (Jun 9, 2020)

Colin said:


> I will typically just pm the seller without saying anything in the thread. I think the thread is more for questions and general comments about the item in question.
> 
> In reguards to whom the knife goes, I don't like that sellers favor some users over others. I know I have lost out on multiple purchases not because I was not first, but because I was unknown. I understand that the item in question is ultimately owned by the seller, and they get to choose who purchases their knife, but something about that irks me. I think the 1st offer should get the knife. I understand both sides to it though, because sometimes the first offer is from someone who you don't trust. Its kind of a chicken before the egg argument. A person comes to BST to build their collection and get more experience, but can't get a knife because they are unknown, but can't contribute until they have more experience with Jknives.



Upfront, I'll say that I've never sold anything here, but I've sold plenty of stuff via similar classifieds. That out of the way, I'll say that I feel your pain, but I still prefer, as a seller, to be able to pick and choose my buyer. 

I'll often price stuff aggressively because I want multiple offers. Often, I'm looking for the person that's going to be the least amount of headache but, on more than one occasion, I've chosen the person for whom I thought the item was the most appropriate and/or the person who could most use a decent turn. For someone like you, I would think that this is where a good, persuasive email might come in handy. Engage - be upfront, ask questions, tell of your journey. It's certainly not going to work every time, but it does work. Hell, when my wife and I sold our condo in Brooklyn, it was a letter from the buyers that tipped the scales - they talked about their search, their difficulty in a seller's market, love of the neighborhood, future family plans, etc. 

So yeah - recognize the game and play it. What else are you going to do?


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## valdim (Jun 9, 2020)

WPerry said:


> Upfront, I'll say that I've never sold anything here, but I've sold plenty of stuff via similar classifieds. That out of the way, I'll say that I feel your pain, but I still prefer, as a seller, to be able to pick and choose my buyer.
> 
> I'll often price stuff aggressively because I want multiple offers. Often, I'm looking for the person that's going to be the least amount of headache but, on more than one occasion, I've chosen the person for whom I thought the item was the most appropriate and/or the person who could most use a decent turn. For someone like you, I would think that this is where a good, persuasive email might come in handy. Engage - be upfront, ask questions, tell of your journey. It's certainly not going to work every time, but it does work. Hell, when my wife and I sold our condo in Brooklyn, it was a letter from the buyers that tipped the scales - they talked about their search, their difficulty in a seller's market, love of the neighborhood, future family plans, etc.
> 
> So yeah - recognize the game and play it. What else are you going to do?


THAT is an argument pro the freedom of sales (thus pro "PM sent"). Positive, touching, understanable, logical. Wise.
I will mark it as something to remember.
Thank you WPerry.


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## parbaked (Jun 9, 2020)

Colin said:


> In reguards to whom the knife goes, I don't like that sellers favor some users over others.



I save the good stuff for people I like...


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## M1k3 (Jun 9, 2020)

ian said:


> Daveb is my god. Daveb says the rules are what they are. Do not question Daveb. This conversation is contentless and futile.





Angie said:


> View attachment 83443
> 
> 
> no


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## panda (Jun 9, 2020)

Any time I purchase something from BST, I am now going to bully everyone else by posting pm sent.


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## parbaked (Jun 9, 2020)

Anytime I purchase something from BST, I am now going to confuse everyone else by posting: pm sent...GLWS!


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## M1k3 (Jun 9, 2020)

panda said:


> Any time I purchase something from BST, I am now going to bully everyone else by posting pm sent.


Triggered.


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## Luftmensch (Jun 9, 2020)

I saw PM sent.... I thought "Sweet.... Justin Trudeau? Boris Johnson maybe? Perhaps even Narendra Modi!"... I waited... and waited.... Alas! None arrived. It is all lies. I don't believe anybody has truly ever sent a PM


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## bahamaroot (Jun 9, 2020)

If I sell something on BST I'm only going to sell to members that just joined and have very few posts.


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## soigne_west (Jun 9, 2020)

I look for the guy (or gal) who beats the most dead horse


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## valgard (Jun 10, 2020)

I actually offer most of what I plan to sell to some people first in private before I post them on BST, and that's also how I have gotten about 80% of my rarer knives, through private offers. For every item I have ever posted to BST or bought from BST, I have sold or traded 10+ directly.


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## parbaked (Jun 10, 2020)

valgard said:


> I actually offer most of what I plan to sell to some people first in private before I post them on BST, and that's also how I have gotten about 80% of my rarer knives, through private offers. For every item I have ever posted to BST or bought from BST, I have sold or traded 10+ directly.


PM sent


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## valdim (Jun 10, 2020)

valgard said:


> I actually offer most of what I plan to sell to some people first in private before I post them on BST, and that's also how I have gotten about 80% of my rarer knives, through private offers. For every item I have ever posted to BST or bought from BST, I have sold or traded 10+ directly.


Aaah...is this how it goes?Good to know.
But, practically, how would I know that you own a knife that I want? PM sent with something....


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## valgard (Jun 10, 2020)

valdim said:


> Aaah...is this how it goes?Good to know.
> But, practically, how would I know that you own a knife that I want? PM sent with something....


Well, I have been around and chatting with some folks for some years now so that's how it goes, just cultivated relationships by being nice to people, sharing knowledge, etc. As for knowing, many members post their new knives in the new knives thread, and some have their personal gallery. But overall you gotta be patient, get a feel for the community, and just talk to people. It's not like that happened overnight for me.


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