# Munetoshi, Toshihirosaku, Toyama - how are they?



## Matus

I have been poking around the threads on these knives and I finally figured out that it was about the time to start a separate thread.

I am looking at middle-weight workhorse that is thin behind the edge, has nice front-forward weight balance (though not as extreme as Kato Workhorse), some gentle curve to the cutting edge - the tip not as high as the Kato does.

I am wondering how do these 3 knives cut and how do you guys find they compare to other knives. I do not expect anyone (apart from Maxim of course  ) to have used all 3, but I would very much appreciate your experience and opinions on any of the 3.

Thanks


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## labor of love

Toshihirosaku looks nice. I've been looking forward to some user reviews. I'll get a 240 whenever they're stocked. Maxim has no idea when that's gonna happen.


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## brainsausage

I'm curious about the Toshi as well. 

I'm a big fan of Toyama. Fit and finish is appropriate for a knife made to beat on. Which I've done. And continue to. Choil and spine have just enough rounding that you don't lose track of them, but also don't really notice them, if that makes sense? Really nice grind on my 270 gyuto. Thin behind the edge, with nice food release. Barely wedges on anything. Heel height helps with that, for sure, but so does the grind. Good weight IMO. Not so much that it's a hindrance, just enough to help with the work. The profile is more on the santoku side, but not so far that it's hitting Watanabe territory. Not that there's anything wrong with that mind you. The tip is ground thin enough to pull off fine work, and the heel is stout enough to power through rough stuff. Edge retention is stellar. It's one of, if not the best, all around gyutos I've experienced thus far. 
On the other hand- I've been playing with Panda's KU 210 Munitoshi Gyuto for about a week now. Haven't measured it, but I'd guess it's closer to 220. Feels a bit heavy for its length, in a good way. It's pretty rough in all respects. Spine and choil are barely finished, yet don't feel bad to work with. The grind is kind of a wide bevel, meets clam shell. It's a hard knife to pin down overall. Has a bit of that 'different' feel that you get with a Shig. They're not the same knife at all. But are very characteristic and solely THAT knife. Which the Toyama has some of as well, but is more built for work IMO, and less finicky. The muni has an excellent profile, but is wedgier by far than the Toyama. Reminds me of a far better version of Heiji in terms of grind. Not sure yet which wins out regarding edge retention, but they're damn close thus far. At this point, I prefer the Toyama for just pure work, but the Muni is one of those knives that I want to have in my kit because it's fun to use. And I can't really say why, other than it just feels good. Which I know is kind of a BS thing to say on a knife forum. But those who know what I'm saying- know what I'm saying.


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## labor of love

All 3 are worth owning IMO. The toshihirosaku looks to be really thin behind the edge knife probably suited for more finesse work(just a guess) munetoshi seems to be a great all a rounder. Toyama is a big strong pit bull.


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## labor of love

Hey brain sausage, any idea how much that Toyama 270mm weighs?


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## brainsausage

labor of love said:


> Hey brain sausage, any idea how much that Toyama 270mm weighs?



It's chunky. I wanna say it's pushing 280, but I could just be talking out my ass. Haven't weighed it since I received it from Maksim almost a year ago. My kit is at the BBQ. I'll throw it on the scale again tomorrow and report back.


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## Matus

Brainsausage - thanks a lot! That is excellent feedback on the Toyama - really helps me to get an idea what to expect. Also knowing that Munethosi wedges more is good to know. Looking the the choil shot of the Toshihirosaku and Munetoshi on maxims site they seem very similar.

One question concerning the Toshihirosaku - is the 240 version really only 47mm at the heel?

I should soon have a chance to try out Gesshin Hide 240 in blue#2 - any guess how these 3 knives could compare to it? The grind would look somewhat similar to Toyama, but the profile is different and the knife is also lighter.


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## brainsausage

labor of love said:


> Hey brain sausage, any idea how much that Toyama 270mm weighs?


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## panda

Don't you love when you guess weight and it's right on the dot? Like when portioning fish but you don't feel like weighing every piece .


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## JohnnyChance

brainsausage said:


> It's chunky. I wanna say it's pushing 280, but I could just be talking out my ass.



I've always said your ass is the smartest part of your body.


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## brainsausage

JohnnyChance said:


> I've always said your ass is the smartest part of your body.



If I remember correctly, you said it was the best looking part...


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## Badgertooth

What brainsausage said. 

I don't know how to objectively quantify what I'm trying to say with the Toyama but I just find myself reaching for it a lot. It feels beefy like it should crack through everything but is one of my least wedging knives. Edge retention is unreal. And HT is unlike any other blue 2 I've encountered


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## Matus

Badgertooth said:


> What brainsausage said.
> 
> I don't know how to objectively quantify what I'm trying to say with the Toyama but I just find myself reaching for it a lot. It feels beefy like it should crack through everything but is one of my least wedging knives. Edge retention is unreal. And HT is unlike any other blue 2 I've encountered



You really make me want to try one  I should soon have the possibility to test Watanabe so that I can at least get an idea how do I like the profile and weight distribution (I understand these are similar between the two).


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## Badgertooth

Matus said:


> You really make me want to try one  I should soon have the possibility to test Watanabe so that I can at least get an idea how do I like the profile and weight distribution (I understand these are similar between the two).



Very similar and both very well regarded.


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## labor of love

Matus said:


> You really make me want to try one  I should soon have the possibility to test Watanabe so that I can at least get an idea how do I like the profile and weight distribution (I understand these are similar between the two).



Yeah I've already owned Toyama and these guys have me wondering why I sold it in the first place!


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## Matus

Any more feedback on Munetoshi or Toshihirosaku? Thanks


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## JohnnyChance

JohnnyChance said:


> I've always said your ass is the smartest part of your body.





brainsausage said:


> If I remember correctly, you said it was the best looking part...



Well it certainly isn't your face so.....


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## Ruso

I wonder how does Toshihirosaku compares to Itinomonn? (besides Carbon vs SS). 210 looks interesting.


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## Matus

Matus said:


> Any more feedback on Munetoshi or Toshihirosaku? Thanks



Bump 

I got a chance thanks to fellow KFF member to test a Watanabe 240 that to my understanding share certain design features with the Toyama. But I got really motivated to get my hands on the Munetoshi, but it seems that it will be a while as these are out of stock (with no restock in sight), Maxim is on vacation and when he finally gets back I will be on a vacation. Oh well ...


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## panda

I bet if you posted a wanted ad you will find one. It's super reactive so not for the average user, someone is bound to have buyers remorse.


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## labor of love

panda said:


> I bet if you posted a wanted ad you will find one. It's super reactive so not for the average user, someone is bound to have buyers remorse.



Yeah my Kasumi mune is almost as bad as shig. Almost.


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## brainsausage

labor of love said:


> Yeah my Kasumi mune is almost as bad as shig. Almost.



I've been saying this for awhile now, but when I first bought my 240 Shig years back it was super reactive, and then I sent it to Jon for a more 'natural' Kasumi finish. The reactivity dropped drastically. I also built a pretty solid patina by julienning about 20 quarts of onions. The KU Muni that I mentioned above already had a good patina from Panda and Dardeau. Didn't notice any issues with cutting onions, in fact I brunoised some pickled jalapenos and it didn't seem to affect the patina at all.


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## panda

I did a coffee patina on that one.


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## Dardeau

I have just used my 240, and haven't gotten a lot of weird patina from it


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## labor of love

The patina that builds in my Kasumi mune looks like splattered and dried franks red hot. Hopefully it calms down over time. Although I'm about to etch the crap outta it soon.


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## panda

you gave it psoriasis!


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## labor of love

Oh yeah! My point is that it's hard to build up a patina on a knife that looks like a week old miscarriage.


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## Matus

Interesting point about the reactivity. I personally would prefer the kurouchi version, so reactivity would be a little less of an issue.


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## Andrey V

Matus said:


> Interesting point about the reactivity. I personally would prefer the kurouchi version, so reactivity would be a little less of an issue.



The Kuroushi version is pretty reactive as well!!
That was the first time i saw a Kuro being that " sensible " . 
Even through the Kuro finish. 
Though after some time it becomes less reactive and as soon as every crack in the blackish finish is covered / protected by patina you don't worry anymore. 
All in all a good knife for it's price.


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## YG420

My ku is pretty reactive as well. I got legit rust on it that I need to take care of. I did my normal routine with a dry/damp towel and then a new dry paper towel wipe and it still rusted. Hopefully it'll calm down because as said before its a great knife for the money.


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## aboynamedsuita

I've found the KU to be fairly robust on the butcher, but I have one from when they were still sold as Itinomonn. Meat juice (just sounds wrong) seems less problematic than veg juice, I've let it sit for hours without wiping it.


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## YG420

Yea I noticed that also. My butcher is alot less reactive than the gyuto


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## Matus

One more quick question about the Munetoshi - how thick is the blade close to the tip? I would prefer thinner tip for finer work (onions, etc)


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## Andrey V

Matus said:


> One more quick question about the Munetoshi - how thick is the blade close to the tip? I would prefer thinner tip for finer work (onions, etc)



Matus, it's quite thin
Lazy to go to measure it now, but it's fairly thin for this kind of job.


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## Andrey V

tjangula said:


> I've found the KU to be fairly robust on the butcher, but I have one from when they were still sold as Itinomonn. Meat juice (just sounds wrong) seems less problematic than veg juice, I've let it sit for hours without wiping it.



Yep, i agree. Though it's the same maker, the Butcher seems to be indestructible and very " shy" in terms of required attention. 
I oil all my knives but almost never touch my Butcher. 
I thought the Gyuto would have similar if not same features.. Hmm.. That's weird..


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## Andrey V

Matus said:


> One more quick question about the Munetoshi - how thick is the blade close to the tip? I would prefer thinner tip for finer work (onions, etc)



Especially for you, Matus
I went to cut me a salad( tomatoes/ cucumber etc. a lot of tomatoes). Using only the tip. Very thin. Cuts very well. 
AND, boys: the Mune Kuro is ok now. I used just the simple kitchen paper towel, no oil, nothing. Fresh tomatoes are very acidic, so it's a good test. 
As already told before- just wait until it's protected by it's natural patina. 
Cheers. 

P.S.
It's quite late for a salad, but.. All for Glory!![emoji41][emoji41][emoji120]&#127995;[emoji120]&#127995;[emoji123]&#127995;[emoji123]&#127995;[emoji123]&#127995;


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## Matus

Thank you Andrey


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## Matus

I need one badly


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## labor of love

Toshihirosaku 240mm is now instock. I need somebody to try one and report back on its performance. Thank you!


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## mcritchlow

Debating between a 210 in all 3 of these. Leaning towards the Toyama, but something about the Munetoshi just seems really fun and different.


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## Matus

labor of love said:


> Toshihirosaku 240mm is now instock. I need somebody to try one and report back on its performance. Thank you!



I am on a vacation for one more week, so I must wait with that since Maxim ships so fast


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## Andrey V

mcritchlow said:


> Debating between a 210 in all 3 of these. Leaning towards the Toyama, but something about the Munetoshi just seems really fun and different.



Toyama is great My absolute love in Toyama range is his Suji 270. 
Munetoshi is totally different., Toyama is just higher league. Not really far from Kato. Still not his level, but definitely higher then Munetoshi


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## mcritchlow

Andrey V said:


> Toyama is great My absolute love in Toyama range is his Suji 270.
> Munetoshi is totally different., Toyama is just higher league. Not really far from Kato. Still not his level, but definitely higher then Munetoshi



Thanks Andrey! I have a Kato 240 workhorse and love it. I don't have any 210's, so I thought I'd try something different (and getting Kato's is so damn hard, I feel very fortunate to have the 240). Munetoshi looks very different.. which seems like a fun/good thing, but I agree at least given the feedback here the Toyama is a level up. Easiest solution is clearly to get both  if only.


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## Matus

Kato is apparently not for everyone. I have 240 Workhorse, but it is just too much of a knife with too much belly for me. Watanabe 240 is a great knife, just little too tall. So I guess the Toyama is excellent too.


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## panda

Not so fast, I prefer mune over wat since we're discussing 'levels'.
Wat does have a better profile, and the belly is the main reason I've never been interested in Kato's. Plus I think the grind is unnecessarily prone to chipping.


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## Matus

panda said:


> Not so fast, I prefer mune over wat since we're discussing 'levels'.
> Wat does have a better profile, and the belly is the main reason I've never been interested in Kato's. Plus I think the grind is unnecessarily prone to chipping.



Do you find it is the grind or HT?

P.S. I hope to have a Munetoshi within 2 weeks


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## panda

Unless the ht is inherently wrong, I think geometry has a lot more to do with chipping than anything else. Super thin right at the edge is silly because the steel has no meat hence it is fragile. Think of all the pressure generated at the apex of a heavy blade. The slightest slip of technique and whoops there goes a chunk. Like the crispy bits on a crusty bread, it's sharp as hell but flakes eight off with a little movement.

You will enjoy the mune on soft foods, but will feel slight wedging on taller/hard foods, I know how much you euro cats hate wedging.


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## Andrey V

panda said:


> Not so fast, I prefer mune over wat since we're discussing 'levels'.
> Wat does have a better profile, and the belly is the main reason I've never been interested in Kato's. Plus I think the grind is unnecessarily prone to chipping.



Disagree reg chipping- having almost all the Katos I can tell they're very different from Shige( they really tend to chip/ i have a big set of)
His heat treat is amazing- so really no problems with it. Though i have some friends - they managed to destroy Katos quite easily- I helped them to restore'em many times.. Should lay on cutting technique.. 
But anyway- every good man here is totally free to love it's favorite profile- that's the variety., 
Cheers


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## Andrey V

panda said:


> Unless the ht is inherently wrong, I think geometry has a lot more to do with chipping than anything else. Super thin right at the edge is silly because the steel has no meat hence it is fragile. Think of all the pressure generated at the apex of a heavy blade. The slightest slip of technique and whoops there goes a chunk. Like the crispy bits on a crusty bread, it's sharp as hell but flakes eight off with a little movement.
> 
> You will enjoy the mune on soft foods, but will feel slight wedging on taller/hard foods, I know how much you euro cats hate wedging.



Yep 
As already told above- to use such knives without changing the cutting technique will be deadly for your mind- you'll go mad. . 
Side pressure is harmful, sure. One should care about the side movements while rocky motion. 
Munetoshi seems to be more " elastic " in this way- or maybe because it's cheaper ( let's say affordable) you don't care that much.. Hmm.. But it helps.. Not to care that much[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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## labor of love

I've been shooting maxim questions regarding toshihirosaku. I want to try one but I doubt I would really want anymore thin knives as kochi and wakui performs those sorts of tasks marvelously.


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## jimbob

The two workhorse Katos I had initially micro chipped but we're good to go after first sharpening. My technique is sublime though.....


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## labor of love

There's already like 20 threads devoted to kato worship, let's stay on track and figure out who is taking the toshihirosaku plunge!


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## brainsausage

panda said:


> Not so fast, I prefer mune over wat since we're discussing 'levels'.
> Wat does have a better profile, and the belly is the main reason I've never been interested in Kato's. Plus I think the grind is unnecessarily prone to chipping.



Less the grind, and more the hardness judging from the 3 Kato's I've owned. They're very hard, approaching honyaki in that regard. Just guessing here. Either way- I prefer my Toyama across the board, followed closely by the Munetoshi. And yeah- somebody (besides me or Craig), take the plunge on the Toshi so we know what's going on dammit!


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## Matus

labor of love said:


> There's already like 20 threads devoted to kato worship, let's stay on track and figure out who is taking the toshihirosaku plunge!



I am contemplating it


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## Andrey V

Agree, boys, let's talk here about Mune/Toshi/Toyama
Toshi- not tried yet, will do it while gathering soon, Toyama is highly advisable( hurry up boys, the good knives at JNS tend to come up in price as soon as they become famous    Mune is very good in terms of price/ quality. And his Butcher and the small utility knife... Uffff. Damn good.


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## labor of love

Maxim responded to my inquiries about toshihirosaku. He says the blade is about the same thickness as munetoshi maybe even thicker, yet thinner behind the edge. He states that the profile is very similar to munetoshi too.


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## labor of love

Maxim also says toshihirosaku steel is a lot harder than munetoshi


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## panda

Now I want to try Toshi, too bad I just splurged for a honyaki and got a burning hole in the wallet.


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## Dardeau

Damn. Why do you do this Craig?


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## labor of love

Dardeau said:


> Damn. Why do you do this Craig?



Lol! I already made some purchase commitments...I'm going to try and find funds to pick up a toshihirosaku. Might have to dig into my vacation funds.


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## Matus

Munetoshi 240 kurouchi just became available so I immediately ordered one - if I will not miss the delivery guy I expect to have the knife within a day or two  That is what I call first working day after vacation


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## panda

I wish you had ordered toshi at the same time and compare for us.


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## Matus

panda said:


> I wish you had ordered toshi at the same time and compare for us.



I really wanted to do that, but I have many expenses comming up (2 more knives, 2x72" grinder, another workbench and the list goes on - do not tell my wife  ) so I just had to pull a stop on this one. But I was very tempted. I still may order in the near future though. If anyone in EU would be willing to lend me theirs I will do the comparison review free of charge


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## Andrey V

Just wait a bit, i'll make it by the end of August! All the new knives Maksim has will be tested by me at his place. Patience...


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## Matus

Andrey V said:


> Just wait a bit, i'll make it by the end of August! All the new knives Maksim has will be tested by me at his place. Patience...



Excellent!


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## labor of love

Andrey V said:


> Just wait a bit, i'll make it by the end of August! All the new knives Maksim has will be tested by me at his place. Patience...



You're testing and reviews are not to be trusted as you have already confessed to being a kato-phile!


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## brainsausage

I just grabbed a 240 Toyama, and 270 for my sous. Figured I should get em before the price hike. Can't wait to take the 240 for a spin based solely on how awesome my 270 is. First time I've ever owned a matching 240/270 gyuto set, if that tells you anything&#129300;


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## Matus

My Munetoshi just arrived and looks great  I will need some more time with it, but first impression is very positive. Yes, the grind is not the thinnest - 10 mm from the edge it goes from 1.6 mm at the heel to 1.2 mm close to the tip, but it is yet to be seen what that means on a cutting board.

The knife arrived shaving sharp.

Big 'thank you' to Maxim who threw in the Tomo Nagura Extra for free when I wanted ti add it to my already payed-for order.


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## fimbulvetr

I just ordered a 210 Toyama (like, seconds ago) thanks, in large part, to this thread. I'm both excited and slightly incredulous that I pulled the trigger.


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## alterwisser

I just got a 240 Toyama off BST ... Let's see. Excited to try it out!


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## brainsausage

alterwisser said:


> I just got a 240 Toyama off BST ... Let's see. Excited to try it out!



You must've just beat me to it! That was a great deal on an already great deal.


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## Mucho Bocho

I've got the 150mm Toyoma as my useful petty. Shaped just like the guyto. The heat treat is brilliant. Worthy of a nicer handle TBH.


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## alterwisser

brainsausage said:


> You must've just beat me to it! That was a great deal on an already great deal.



Sorry man! For once I didn't hesitate. Didn't even look up what they usually sell for, thought it was a good deal, just pulled the trigger.

Not sure if I like WH, but I figured this is a good way of trying one. If not you'll see it on BST soon. Will have to sell 3-8 knives anyway lol


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## brainsausage

Mucho Bocho said:


> I've got the 150mm Toyoma as my useful petty. Shaped just like the guyto. The heat treat is brilliant. Worthy of a nicer handle TBH.



I agree. My 270 holds an edge forever, and is a joy to sharpen on Jon's diamond stones.


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## Mute-on

Damn it you guys! I'm trying to hold off on (yet another) Toyama, but you are wearing me down! irate1:

Clearly I absolutely need a 210 gyuto to balance my 240 gyuto and the monster 210 nakiri, right?! 

Cheers

J


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## limpet

Just received the Munetoshi Gyuto 240 and Toshihirosaku Gyuto 240. I already have the Toyama Noborikoi Gyuto 240.

I've got some first impressions regarding performance, and it involves mostly carrots.  

Both Munetoshi and Toshihirosaku are thin behind the edge and cuts well, but the Munetoshi wedges slightly more than the Toshihirosaku. On the other hand, the Munetoshi has better separation and release, while the Toshihirosaku is a bit sticky. The Toyama is higher class than both these knives regarding performance, in my opinion.

The Munetoshi seems to be a great middle weight with "normal" profile for a great price. Good distal taper but the tip could have been a bit thinner, I think. Rough fit & finish but I like that.

The Toshihirosaku is a bit sticky. As I understand it, this is Wakui and his grinds are usually very thin above the edge, almost a bit concave. Myself, I prefer a bit more convex or something to make better separation when cutting. I'm a bit addicted to light pull cutting and then sticking/friction becomes more of an issue. When push cutting, you don't notice it as much. I have a Wakui Kurouchi Nashiji Gyuto 240 and it's very similar to this kasumi model, but perhaps a bit less sticky and with better food release. First impression is that I prefer the nashiji model. Important note: Yes, the Toshihirosaku is indeed only 47 mm tall at the heel. My nashiji model is 48 mm at the heel, so it seems consistent for this maker. Otherwise, great fit & finish on this kasumi model and thinner at the tip than the Munetoshi.

Both Munetoshi and Toshihirosaku have reactive cladding, but you notice it more on the Toshihirosaku because it is migaki/kasumi finish. I would say the Toshihirosaku is pretty similar to the Toyama in its reactiveness, but I haven't used it for that many types of ingredients yet.

Edit: Please note, these are only first impressions.


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## brainsausage

240 Toyama showed up today. Took a couple quick pics. 

View attachment 32626







Just the tip:


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## labor of love

limpet said:


> Just received the Munetoshi Gyuto 240 and Toshihirosaku Gyuto 240. I already have the Toyama Noborikoi Gyuto 240.
> 
> I've got some first impressions regarding performance, and it involves mostly carrots.
> 
> Both Munetoshi and Toshihirosaku are thin behind the edge and cuts well, but the Munetoshi wedges slightly more than the Toshihirosaku. On the other hand, the Munetoshi has better separation and release, while the Toshihirosaku is a bit sticky. The Toyama is higher class than both these knives regarding performance, in my opinion.
> 
> The Munetoshi seems to be a great middle weight with "normal" profile for a great price. Good distal taper but the tip could have been a bit thinner, I think. Rough fit & finish but I like that.
> 
> The Toshihirosaku is a bit sticky. As I understand it, this is Wakui and his grinds are usually very thin above the edge, almost a bit concave. Myself, I prefer a bit more convex or something to make better separation when cutting. I'm a bit addicted to light pull cutting and then sticking/friction becomes more of an issue. When push cutting, you don't notice it as much. I have a Wakui Kurouchi Nashiji Gyuto 240 and it's very similar to this kasumi model, but perhaps a bit less sticky and with better food release. First impression is that I prefer the nashiji model. Important note: Yes, the Toshihirosaku is indeed only 47 mm tall at the heel. My nashiji model is 48 mm at the heel, so it seems consistent for this maker. Otherwise, great fit & finish on this kasumi model and thinner at the tip than the Munetoshi.
> 
> Both Munetoshi and Toshihirosaku have reactive cladding, but you notice it more on the Toshihirosaku because it is migaki/kasumi finish. I would say the Toshihirosaku is pretty similar to the Toyama in its reactiveness, but I haven't used it for that many types of ingredients yet.
> 
> Edit: Please note, these are only first impressions.



Thanks for your initial impressions. How do you like toshihirosaku profile? Similar to wakui basically?


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## panda

toyama grind is so good.


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## limpet

labor of love said:


> Thanks for your initial impressions. How do you like toshihirosaku profile? Similar to wakui basically?


Very similar, see picture below comparing it to the Wakui nashiji that I have. Compared to for example Masakage gyutos, the Toshihirosaku/Wakui doesn't have that much back-belly at the heel.

Yesterday I sharpened the Munetoshi on my JNS 1000 and 6000 grit stones. Very easy to create a burr since the edge is pretty thin. I then used it when cooking dinner. I must say, I like this knife a lot. Even though it wedges slightly more than for example Wakui, it's got excellent food release and separation which I value more than 100 % wedge-free-ness. I think the kurouchi/nashiji finish helps a bit here as well. I was chopping up potatoes and it was much better than the Toshihirosaku when it came to release. Things stayed on the board at greater extent. I also find the kurouchi/nashiji finish very beautiful.

Also I mentioned that the profile on the Munetoshi was more "normal". When looking at it more closely, I think I said that mostly because it has a pretty average height at the heel: 50 mm. Otherwise, if you look at the picture below, it's got a profile similar to the Toshihirosaku where it's pretty flat at the heel. A little less belly towards the tip. It's hard to see in that picture, but the 3 mm extra in height on the Munetoshi makes a difference when using it.

*Toshihirosaku vs Wakui*




*Toshihirosaku vs Munetoshi*




*Munetoshi Kurouchi Nashiji*


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## Matus

OK, so I have used my new Munetoshi on a few items. What an interesting knife. After I measured the blade it turn out that for a good part it is 1.5 mm @ 10 mm from the edge - not a thin grind by any measure. but beyond that point the knife gets a lot thinner and it cuts semi-hard stuff very well. No, it does not glide through food like my Kochi Santoku does, but it is just joy to cut with. Potatoes, onion, etc. Very nice. Even the tip seems thin enough. I have yet to try it on some hard stuff. I expect some wedging - the question will be how much.

I appreciate how sharp the knife arrived - shaves perfectly and cuts tomato skin like dream.

The kurouchi is really cool - reminds me a bit of Kochi, but side-by-se it looks different. The Kochi is matt, while the one on Munetoshi is quite glossy. I am not sure whether that is some sort of protective finish. 

And a few photos, of course


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## panda

It's fun to use because of the top notch food release


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## Johnny.B.Good

How reactive do you Toyama owners find them to be?


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## Badgertooth

Johnny.B.Good said:


> How reactive do you Toyama owners find them to be?



Very. But they do settle down


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## Andrey V

Badgertooth said:


> Very. But they do settle down



Agree. It will turn you mad in the beginning, but... Wait a bit. Just cut- use it. You'll get a smooth patina. 
White steel is a white steel... 
But I really love my 270 Suji.. From all the Toyama range it's a Ferrari!! 
Soooooooo niccccccce[emoji12][emoji12][emoji123]&#127995;[emoji123]&#127995;[emoji41][emoji41]


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## limpet

I took a quick picture of my three Toyama Noborikoi knives. I'm most fond of the nakiri and suji, because they are the only nakiri 210 mm and suji 300 mm I've got. But the gyuto 240 mm isn't bad either.


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## brainsausage

Andrey V said:


> Agree. It will turn you mad in the beginning, but... Wait a bit. Just cut- use it. You'll get a smooth patina.
> White steel is a white steel...
> But I really love my 270 Suji.. From all the Toyama range it's a Ferrari!!
> Soooooooo niccccccce[emoji12][emoji12][emoji123]&#127995;[emoji123]&#127995;[emoji41][emoji41]



I may be mistaken, but I believe Maxim only carries knives made by Toyama in blue steel, yes? 

But yeah, it takes a bit to establish the patina but when you do, it's very stable IME.


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## Andrey V

brainsausage said:


> I may be mistaken, but I believe Maxim only carries knives made by Toyama in blue steel, yes?
> 
> But yeah, it takes a bit to establish the patina but when you do, it's very stable IME.



Was thinking about Munetoshi ( just answered to one friend)- he uses Shirogami. 
Toyama is Aogami-of course- blue, thanks for pointing. 
And again yes, it's stable after having established the patina. 
Mune- as I wrote above, made me crazy. In Gyoto. I don't know why it wasn't an issue on a Butcher... Neither on his small utility knife. I love it. I have many - they are everywhere. A real utility knife.


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## Matus

Andrey, maybe because with the butcher or the utility knife you do not cut onions or tomatoes. I have the gyuto, but first impression is that the behaviour of the cladding is kind of 'normal'. That means quite reactive before some patina sets in.


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## JaVa

On that Munetoshi that's hands down the best looking KU finish I've seen. Very rustic and authentic look in all kinds of right ways!
Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside and that's usually bad bad bad. 
Toyama is seductive too.

Must. Resist. Getting. Weaker.

It's a good thing (or maybe bad, not sure?) I blew my budget already on some things that are on their way. So, I'm so not going to be thinking about either of these two in the near future at all! that's settled. Right! Right?


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## bennyprofane

Strange, I didn't find the Munetoshi Gyuto 240 so reactive. I don't have much comparison as all my Japanese knives so far are either pm or AEB-L but I have German Herder Carbon knives which I find very reactive compared (discolouring of onions, strong smell). No smell at all with the Mune. 

I really like the Mune, it doesn't fly through hard carrots like my Takamura but as others write it's really fun cutting with it. I enjoy the knife a lot and don't mind even cutting my carrots with it. It's my first Shirogami knife and it really is a dream on the stones, so smooth, unlike anything I've experienced before. Overall, very happy with my purchase.


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## limpet

Another rustic and cool thing with the Munetoshi is the open lamination at the spine. According to info on JNS webshop, this is hand laminated.


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## Badgertooth

Was wondering if those with experience of both Wakui and Toshihirosaku could weigh in on them as cutters v Tanaka in terms of outright cutting ability and as a value proposition. Is there anyone like limpet whose tried both, or a combination of yamawaku/Toshihirosaku/Wakui and tanaka?


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## labor of love

Badgertooth said:


> Was wondering if those with experience of both Wakui and Toshihirosaku could weigh in on them as cutters v Tanaka in terms of outright cutting ability and as a value proposition. Is there anyone like limpet whose tried both, or a combination of yamawaku/Toshihirosaku/Wakui and tanaka?



Which tanaka line and which wakui line are you referring too?


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## Badgertooth

Tanaka blue 2 and ginsanko in gyuto format 
The Bernal flavour of Wakui Kasumi finish. The v2 kurouchi yamawaku and the JNS flavour of Kasumi finish.

Doesn't have to be a hard and detailed cross-product analysis just some anecdotal stuff.


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## Andrey V

Matus said:


> Andrey, maybe because with the butcher or the utility knife you do not cut onions or tomatoes. I have the gyuto, but first impression is that the behaviour of the cladding is kind of 'normal'. That means quite reactive before some patina sets in.



This is exactly what i told above, Matus. 
And as i told as well, my Munetoshi Gyuto has established the patina and stopped killing my nerves. 
Yesterday I chopped exactly onions & tomatoes - no problems any more. 
And the more you sharpen it, the better it cuts. You get this stabilized quality. I get it sharp in seconds- i mean the " growing up" of the knife. Mune is a good pupil listening well to what i show/ teach .


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## labor of love

I've no experience with the tanaka blue 2 line but I hear they're laser-ish. Wakui Kasumi is thin and borderline laser like but with actually really good taper from spine to the edge. Wakui KU nashiji finish are big bevel thin behind the edge knives that offer about the best food release you could ask for from a thin knife(kochi too). G3 tanakas are big bevel thicker knives with solid profiles, NOT thin behind the edge though. Maxim talks as if toshihirosaku have thick blades(thicker than mune he guesses)but that remains to be seen. I had several wakui knives at one point, kept the nashiji big bevel ones sold the Kasumi, although I do miss the Kasumi from time to time. Chinacats really seems to
Champion his tanaka blue 2 Gyuto, he could tell you more about them.


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## Matus

I have just got the blade without handle from James - Tanaka 240 kurouchi. I would not call it a laser - the blade wights just under 160g - with a simple Ho wood handle it would be around 200g. The grind looks good, but the knife needs a handle first before it can be used and assessed. That process was started already


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## JaVa

Tanaka damascus vg10 I would call a laser, the B2 damascus is slightly thicker and I'd call it maybe a light middle weight, Both with convex grinds made by Shigeki Tanaka. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

The KU B2, Ginsanko nashiji and vg10 nashiji are all thicker and heavier and not lasers. They have wide bevels and are made by brother Hideyuki Tanaka. (Again please correct if it's needed.)

And I believe the ginsanko has been replaced by vg10?
I have the B2 damascus nakiri and damascus vg10 gyuto and they are really great!


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## limpet

I have the Tanaka KU B2 Gyuto 210 and it has a really thick grind. Useless on carrots. I also have the B2 Damascus Gyuto 240 and it has a better convex grind, but not at all as good as for example Masakage Shimo. It also has a thick spine with no distal taper.

My Wakui/Toshihirosaku knives are much, much thinner behind the edge and with better distal taper and tips. However, as I mentioned previously in this thread, the thin part can sometimes lead to some friction, which may bother you more or less depending on how you use the knife.


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## labor of love

Matus said:


> I have just got the blade without handle from James - Tanaka 240 kurouchi. I would not call it a laser - the blade wights just under 160g - with a simple Ho wood handle it would be around 200g. The grind looks good, but the knife needs a handle first before it can be used and assessed. That process was started already



The Damascus tanaka blue was the knife I was referring to, not the KU tanaka. I've heard that it's laser-ish but have had no experience w it.


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## Badgertooth

labor of love said:


> The Damascus tanaka blue was the knife I was referring to, not the KU tanaka. I've heard that it's laser-ish but have had no experience w it.



Yeah, I have the b2 dammy. Stiff with decent spine thickness which resolves to a thin but durable edge. Not the most tapered to the tip but more than compensated for by outright cutting ability and quality of grind. Food release only average but not that much of an issue for me. I guess I wanted to see how a Wakui generally stacks up against that


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## chinacats

labor of love said:


> The Damascus tanaka blue was the knife I was referring to, not the KU tanaka. I've heard that it's laser-ish but have had no experience w it.



I loved my blue 2 damascus but the cladding was super annoyingly reactive. I also just got a ku from James and I would suggest that it is essentially the same blank size and grind only less reactive cladding due to the ku. Dimensions are almost identical. I freaking love it even though I've been using it without a handle until I get to my buddy's shop.


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## Matus

I have to admit that I am not sure how long the KU on my Tanaka will last though. Just handling it left me with black(ish) fingers. But back on topic - I am really having fun with the Munetoshi. Did not cut any really hard stuff yet, but the rest is just fun


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## brainsausage

Matus said:


> I have to admit that I am not sure how long the KU on my Tanaka will last though. Just handling it left me with black(ish) fingers. But back on topic - I am really having fun with the Munetoshi. Did not cut any really hard stuff yet, but the rest is just fun



That's the same feeling I had when I borrowed Panda's. Doesn't outperform some other knives out there, but it has a lot of character and is as you say, just fun to work with.


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## wphill

Maybe I missed something..but I wish to get back to the discussion on the three knives: M, T & T.
Two of them, other than the Toyama, are white steel. Any mention whether it is numbers one or two white?
As for the Toyama..it's blue. I sure like the profile...tall and flat. Just wish that it was white number one. 
Then again, all about HT. Crazy sharp means more to me than retention. I like to sharpen, home cook, etc.
I sent a note to Maxim...but thought that I would pose the question here, too.

Re: the wedging issue that seems surfaces to some extent for so many of the knives that get mentioned....
Yeah..I want a knife to do it all. We have a Kanehide
ps60 gyuto. It's a value knife but for whatever reason it does not wedge. By wedging...i mean stuckness
is noticeable and the cutting edge can't get back to work without an un-graceful amount of pressure
or hyper gaming on personal technique. And, actually the kanehide knife does not wedge. It's downfall is very poor
food release and crazy sharp for an entire session on the board is not likely. Good bite, though. I only mention this knife because I consider
it a sense of proof that with the right geometry, wedging is not something that should be dismissed as
a tradeoff. Sometimes, thinning behind the edge is all that's needed to optimize the knife's hidden
strengths and that's something I don't mind doing.


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## Steampunk

On the subject of the Toyama, its noteworthy reactivity is mentioned being inline with Shigefusa or Kato... Sadly, I have not tried these two knives. Could anyone comment on how it compares with a more plebeian carbon clad blade, like Zakuri?

Thank you very much...

- Steampunk


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## Matus

To confuse you more about the reactivity. I had a Watanabe on loan for a few weeks. The knife arrived clean and with polish-ish kasumi finish. For first few days I though that it was stainless clad - I would get some patina on the core steel, but none on the cladding. The it came to onions and the cladding started to collect patina fast. In total - it was very similar to my other carbon clad knives (Carter, Kato, Kochi, Munetoshi). The differences come in how is the blade finished. A more polished surface takes patina more slowly and may thus be perceived as less reactive. I had a Zakuri long time ago and my impression from memory is that it did not patinate too fast, but it was a Sabaki so I did not use it much on vegetables.


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## stoneray

I have some rather inexpensive Herder Carbon knives which might be considered plebeian and I find them much more reactive than my Munetoshi KU which itself was described as pretty reactive in this thread. Without patina the Herders smell pretty strong when cutting onion and tend to discolour them as well. I was expecting this kind of behaviour with the Mune and was rather pleasantly surprised.


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## Steampunk

Matus said:


> To confuse you more about the reactivity. I had a Watanabe on loan for a few weeks. The knife arrived clean and with polish-ish kasumi finish. For first few days I though that it was stainless clad - I would get some patina on the core steel, but none on the cladding. The it came to onions and the cladding started to collect patina fast. In total - it was very similar to my other carbon clad knives (Carter, Kato, Kochi, Munetoshi). The differences come in how is the blade finished. A more polished surface takes patina more slowly and may thus be perceived as less reactive. I had a Zakuri long time ago and my impression from memory is that it did not patinate too fast, but it was a Sabaki so I did not use it much on vegetables.



This is not confusing at all; a more polished surface has less surface area, and it is more difficult for moisture to get trapped on it where oxidation can form. 

The purity of the iron cladding is more what I'm curious about... This also is a contributing factor to how a material patinas, or how violently it reacts to food acids. I've thinned my Zakuri's and refinished them with finger stones and J-Nat mud so the scratch pattern in the steel is pretty fine. They certainly aren't stainless, but they aren't crazy like the western carbons I've used. Before patina, you can cut fresh fruit with only the slightest (Definitely tolerable) metallic taste transfer, and only rusted on me when I wasn't diligent enough with washing/wiping when cutting citrus. 

I agree with Stoneray; Western carbons can be an entirely different kettle of fish when it comes to reactivity... 

- Steampunk


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## bennyprofane

To those that sharpen the Toyama and Munetoshi, do you always sharpen the entire bevel (similiar to single bevel sharpening) or just the edge?


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## Badgertooth

I ride a fair way up on the Toyama.


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## Matus

I have yet to sharpen my Munetoshi, but I plan to sharpen the whole bevel, otherwise the knife would probably develop a shoulder rather fast. And, compared to knives like Kochi (I am only touching up the edge on my santoku for now) - it is considerably thicker throughout the wide bevel, so I do not want to keep that bevel thickness in check (and possibly thin it a little in the process in the future).


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## bennyprofane

So, do you sharpen the entire wide bevel or hamaguri edge (if so, is that hard?)?


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## Matus

Benny, I plan to sharpen the whole edge up to kurouchi.


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## Sharpchef

Matus said:


> I have yet to sharpen my Munetoshi, but I plan to sharpen the whole bevel, otherwise the knife would probably develop a shoulder rather fast. And, compared to knives like Kochi (I am only touching up the edge on my santoku for now) - it is considerably thicker throughout the wide bevel, so I do not want to keep that bevel thickness in check (and possibly thin it a little in the process in the future).



Would be nice if you can provide some pics of that work, my munetoshi is hollow groundet (concave) for 2/3 of the blade, and at the end slightly konvex.

Greets Sebastian.


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## Matus

I can do that in some 2-3 weeks. But just a short question to be sure - are you saying that part of the ground bevel is concave and the othet convex?


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## Matus

A friend of mine has just made this video with a 165 mm Munetoshi petty. The knife was fully sharpened by him (the bevels are flat now), but the geometry was not changed. It is quite a performer.

[video=youtube;5EaVAUghioQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EaVAUghioQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]


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## valgard

Nice, 
I love the 240 and even thought about getting the petty but I have to hold myself down for now :whistling:. BTW that thing is TALL for a "petty"


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## foody518

valgard said:


> BTW that thing is TALL for a "petty"



Wow, no kidding


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## valgard

Just adding a short vid showing the food release of my Munetoshi 240 (I had not seen this thread when I first posted the vid)
[video=youtube;l-BpYoGenw4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-BpYoGenw4[/video]


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## Sharp-Hamono

valgard said:


> Nice,
> I love the 240 and even thought about getting the petty but I have to hold myself down for now :whistling:. BTW that thing is TALL for a "petty"



Munetoshi has some very interesting blades in their lineup. I've thought the same thing about the petty, which has kept me from getting one, and the slicer seems kind of short and with a different tip shape than I'm used to on a Japanese blade.


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## Matus

I have made a video with my 240 Munetoshi recently. This really is a unique knife I enjoy a lot.

[video=youtube;I5MD-WLq_dk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5MD-WLq_dk[/video]

Video on 180 Toyama nakiri will follow soon


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## tgfencer

Nice video Matus, what's the progression of stones you used?


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## Matus

I went Gesshin 400, 2k 4k followed by Ikarashi and Uchigumori on the wide bevel, and then Gesshin synthetic natural for the edge. The wide bevel is not yet completely smoothened out (there are some low spots left from the concave grind these knives have), so I could have as well skipped the natural stones, but did use them just for the fun of it


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## khashy

I need to re-watch Kill Bill after this


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## mcritchlow

Excellent video, Matus. I love my 210 Mune. Also that cutting board you have is so cool


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## Matus

Thanks. I have a love/hate relationship with that board. I love the design, but hate that it is not flat (those waves show up in the surface) and keeps acting up as the temperature and humidity changes.


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## Jovidah

Matus said:


> Thanks. I have a love/hate relationship with that board. I love the design, but hate that it is not flat (those waves show up in the surface) and keeps acting up as the temperature and humidity changes.



Thanks for the heads-up on that one. This is exactly what I'd be afraid of when buying one of those; the different woods contracting and reacting differently to humidity and seasons. Is this one from MTMwood?


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## Matus

No, this one came from custommade.com I think the problem are the curved cuts, they can never fit as precisely as straight ones and so itroduce tensions, but that is just my theory.


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## panda

song from kill bill, lol
that was a nice vid.
what was stone lineup?

it would be cool if you could do a high frame rate zoomed-in capture with slow technique so that you could see the food being cut/separated in action in slo-mo


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## labor of love

Nice vid. Thanks for sharing.


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## Matus

Thanks  

(panda, the stone lineup is in the post #125  )

Here is another one - Toyama 180 nakiri. This one will most probybly not play on mobile devices - check out the version on *VIMEO* insted.

Since the nakiri was brand new, I did not sharpen it, so what you see here is out-of-the-box edge performance.

[video=youtube;K6m8JJobFuI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6m8JJobFuI[/video]


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## khashy

Loved, loved the mushroom bit


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## Doug

Great videos Matus. Very entertaining and displays the qualities of the knives. 
What type of nagura were you using on the Ikarashi?


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## Matus

Thanks 

The Nagura is one of the two medium-fine Asano Naguras (Tenjyou or Mejiro) I got some time ago from Maxim. I found them to be very similar, so I gifted one to my friend.


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## valgard

very nice video again. I see you decided to go Toyama for the nakiri. Btw, I love your magblock very cool with the sapwood.


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## Matus

valgard said:


> very nice video again. I see you decided to go Toyama for the nakiri. Btw, I love your magblock very cool with the sapwood.



Thanks, that one is from JKI


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## XooMG

Thanks for the videos Matus. Knives look nice.


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## valgard

Very nice score, and those are supposed to have more depth, I don't like how thin mine is.

I'm in the process of testing to make one with a nice piece 26"x3"x2" curly purpleheart. Although it's so nicely figured that I'm second guessing myself and may only use it for the front part of the block with oak for the back and save the rest of the purple heart for other projects.


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## Matus

Now that is a big piece of purple heart. You really do not need a wood that thick for the holder.

I did one simple magholder too, I used only 20mm thick board (just a plain beech) and then used a spacer, about 2 or 3 cm thick between the holder and the wall, so the knife handles have some comfortable distance from the wall. Works like a charm.

You can find more info how I did it *HERE* (it was way before I started a knifemaking blog), but there is definitely a room for improvement there.

This is the view from the side:


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## valgard

Thanks for sharing, I was thinking along the lines of your holder although what I have are rectangular magnets so I'm opening two long grooves with chisel. Once it's warm enough to work outside I plan to finish it, so far I have only done some testing with a piece of oak.


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## Matus

That sounds like a cool project. Just be prepared that working with a chisel on a hard wood will be a lot of work.


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## xantiema

I bought the 240mm Munotoshi Gyuto, and it wasn't for me. I think I need to move on to a laser and possibly a Nakiri. Do Nakiri's also come in lasers?


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