# No Love for VG-10?



## Mjdavid (Nov 24, 2018)

What is about VG-10? I see a lot of upper tier knives out there just collecting dust...they don’t seem to garner the same prestige as their carbon counterparts. I’m talking about gorgeous knives. Why is that?


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## madelinez (Nov 24, 2018)

It's a nice steel in my opinion, but it won't get as sharp as carbon steels like blue #2. AEB-L on the other hand is also stainless (slightly worse stain resistance) but can take a finer edge. So for me it sits in an awkward position, if I want a non-PM stainless I'm probably going to choose AEB-L.


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## Kippington (Nov 25, 2018)

I love VG10, it's one of my favourites. Shame it's got such a mediocre reputation.


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## Lazyboy (Nov 25, 2018)

Kippington said:


> I love VG10, it's one of my favourites. Shame it's got such a mediocre reputation.



Hey Kip, do you mean fave for making or using? or Both? What's the secret? What do you like about it?


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## Kippington (Nov 25, 2018)

Lazyboy said:


> Hey Kip, do you mean fave for making or using? or Both? What's the secret? What do you like about it?


I've never made a knife from VG10, so its purely using them that I'm refering to.
I love the ease of sharpening and the 'toothy' edge it seems to take.
This will be a bad description. but of all the steels I've used it seems to be the closest to 'knapping' an obsidian blade. Sharp, with a good balance of toothy and slicey with very little effort.


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## agp (Nov 25, 2018)

Kippington said:


> I love VG10, it's one of my favourites. Shame it's got such a mediocre reputation.


Which vg10 do you use?


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## Kippington (Nov 25, 2018)

Shun, Miyabi, Kanetsune... probably some more I can't remember, it's common enough to find everywhere.


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## Barmoley (Nov 25, 2018)

Shun definitely gets toothy, mine micro chipped so badly it looked like it was serrated..... I exaggerate obviously. They chipped pretty badly though, even though they were not abused, the knives continued cutting pretty well even chipped. I had similar experience with other VG10 knives, maybe I sharpened them too aggressively, I was much worse at sharpening then and I steel have very far to go now


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## minibatataman (Nov 25, 2018)

I think (and this is my very uneducated guess) it's down to a few things. It's a finnicky steel, that needs to be done really well to actually be useable, some steels aren't that annoying to work with. After it got popular, everyone jumped on the hype train, so you see a lot of pretty crappy chinese cheapos made of the stuff, but then you also see stuff like Hattori who by all accounts seems to unlocked the proper way of using it. So between how "commercial" companies like shun throw it around on poorly designed knives (idk who thought of making a belly heavy knife made for rocking out of hard steel) and the use (or at least claim) in crappy plasticky knives, it lost a lot of respect and most of the community just dropped it and went to look for the next cool thing


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## bahamaroot (Nov 25, 2018)

I think Shun ruined the VG10 rep more than anything. I heard nothing but horror stories for a few years about VG10 and Shun. I was very leary of it until I tried a couple of knives from smiths that knew what they were doing with it and have started to rethink my views on it.


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## parbaked (Nov 25, 2018)

Nothing wrong with VG10....like any other steel it's how it's treated.
I think it's silly that the same people that preach it's "_all about the heat treatment and not the steel"_ dismiss VG10 without considering who is working it...


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## Barmoley (Nov 25, 2018)

It's definitely about who makes it. For example, Tanaka vg10 is supposed to be very good.


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## McMan (Nov 25, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> It's definitely about who makes it. For example, Tanaka vg10 is supposed to be very good.


It is [emoji106]


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## Jville (Nov 25, 2018)

Kurasaki also makes a nice version of vg10. I think it's bad rap comes alot from shun being marketed to people that aren't prepared to treat their knives properly, so alot of shuns get chipped. I had a tojiro vg10 nakiri. Never had any issues with it. I used it, sharpened it, and knife looked perfect. I sold it to a co-worker couple weeks later it looked like a serated blade. Also vg10 was made out to be super steel. The knife nuts no better, and see all kinds of options like ginsan, AEBL, r2 etc.,and also semi stainless. Some of those other steels have characteristics more preferable to some knife nuts like ease of sharpening or edge retention. It ends up being a small fish in a big pond. That being said,I would buy vg10 by a maker I trust in a knife that I wanted.


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## StonedEdge (Nov 26, 2018)

Mjdavid said:


> What is about VG-10? I see a lot of upper tier knives out there just collecting dust...they don’t seem to garner the same prestige as their carbon counterparts. I’m talking about gorgeous knives. Why is that?


Because there is no need for it. VG10 is just ok. Deburring it, thinning it sucks bad. Why go for VG10 when there's stuff like ginsanko out there.


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## Mjdavid (Nov 26, 2018)

StonedEdge said:


> Because there is no need for it. VG10 is just ok. Deburring it, thinning it sucks bad. Why go for VG10 when there's stuff like ginsanko out there.


I hear ya but I’m still trying to understand how they justify using it in the over $500 category of fine handmade cutlery. Who buys that?


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## Chef Doom (Nov 26, 2018)

A $500 VG10 GYUTO IS LIKE A $1000 QUARTZ WATCH, A COMPLETE WASTE OF MONEY.


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## Mjdavid (Nov 26, 2018)

Th


Chef Doom said:


> A $500 VG10 GYUTO IS LIKE A $1000 QUARTZ WATCH, A COMPLETE WASTE OF MONEY.


Where did you see a quartz watch priced at $1,000?
Konosuke makes a fine gyuto...$505 available at ai&om
*Konosuke Custom VG10 Etched Damascus Wa-Gyuto 210mm Khii Rosewood Handle*


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## panda (Nov 26, 2018)

people dont buy knives like that based on performance, thats why vg10 is used on trash like kono dammy.


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## Benuser (Nov 26, 2018)

In favour of it, once it has lost its remarkable sharpness fresh from the stones, which happens almost instantly, it keeps an acceptable level of sharpness for a very long time.
Against it: long, tedious deburring along the entire progression, some four stones being involved. You can't weaken the burr and expect it to fall off. You have to abrade it, little by little. And no fast touching up: again, the full progression. No fun.


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## Alexec (Nov 26, 2018)

I tried a bunch of VG10. Tanaka's one feels and acts like no other.


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## Jville (Nov 26, 2018)

panda said:


> people dont buy knives like that based on performance, thats why vg10 is used on trash like kono dammy.



Those vg10 konos I believe we're made my shiraki. The grinds looked really nice and they were probably fantastic knifes that didnt get the love they probably should of due to the vg10. Quit being the kono Grinch man .


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## YG420 (Nov 26, 2018)

Ive used and sharpened a ryusen vg10 at Jons and it was pretty dam good, sharpened easily and got sharp af. Completely have a different view of vg10 after that experience.


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## Kippington (Nov 26, 2018)

Here's a thought: How can VG10 be considered both chippy and hard to deburr at the same time? Isn't that contradictory? I mean, the burr should fall right off a glass-like material, it's the higher toughness steels that should hold on to the burr for longer.
I do find VG10 to be a tad chippy, but I've never found it difficult to deburr.


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## HRC_64 (Nov 26, 2018)

Kippington said:


> Here's a thought: How can VG10 be considered both chippy and hard to deburr at the same time? Isn't that contradictory?



I thought Global had a patent on this process?


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## HRC_64 (Nov 26, 2018)

Tsubaya (aparently) sells alot of it (VG10) into the JDM, so i don't think its all bad.


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## osakajoe (Nov 27, 2018)

I love VG10 (and AUS10). I use them daily at home and I sharpen about 10 on average a day. Never have bur or toothy problems on my better quality VG10 Knives. 

Some of the mass cheapo knives yes, but nothing like a cheap Henkel. 

A comment up above, mentions the choir forum heads on heat treatment, had it right. If done correctly it’s great. I would also caution to not listen to most personal reviews on heat treatment here as most have no knowledge or experience on the subject. 

Also above, kips comments are very true. Take in what he says.


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## Barmoley (Nov 27, 2018)

Kippington said:


> Here's a thought: How can VG10 be considered both chippy and hard to deburr at the same time? Isn't that contradictory? I mean, the burr should fall right off a glass-like material, it's the higher toughness steels that should hold on to the burr for longer.
> I do find VG10 to be a tad chippy, but I've never found it difficult to deburr.



I never had issues to deburr vg10 knives, chippiness is the only issue I’ve experienced. I agree that it would be odd to see both behaviors on a single knife, different heat treats, sure.


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## lemeneid (Nov 27, 2018)

Everyone’s a closet VG10 lover... don’t listen to the hearsay


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## panda (Nov 27, 2018)

nah, vg10 sucks


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## Kippington (Nov 27, 2018)

So it appears panda refuses to come out of the closet...


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## Grunt173 (Nov 27, 2018)

VG10 knives have made a lot of kitchen moms happy at Christmas time through the years.They are popular at places like Bed,Bath and Beyond and what have you.I don't get out much and pretty much stay on the farm so I tend to search the web and buy lots of good carbon or ginsanko knives and bookoo stones to sharpen them.Thanks KKF.


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## Benuser (Nov 27, 2018)

Wouldn't call it chippy. Factory edges might be, but than the steel isn't to blame. What some report as micro-chips are perhaps wire edges or other burr remnants.


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## NO ChoP! (Nov 27, 2018)

I believe as stated above, when the likes of Shun became popular, people had no idea how to properly care for them, and the steel took a bad rap. I dont think Shun is any more chippy than any other ots jknife. I do think the initial edge is fragile, and needs a good run on the stones otb.

Also, I would put Tanaka and Saji VG10 against just about any basic stainlesses out there. Takeshi Saji, in particular has some wonderdul stuff out there in vg10.


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## Kippington (Nov 27, 2018)

By 'chippy' I mean it within the context of other knife steels. If you compare it to knives made from simple spring steels, you really can't get VG10 to hold the same fine angles as a spring steel without something going wrong. Call it what you will, an inappropriate angle for the steel, or just a chippy edge - It's different sides of the same coin to me. I love VG10, but it just doesn't seem to have as much toughness as many other options.


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## Jville (Nov 27, 2018)

Kippington said:


> By 'chippy' I mean it within the context of other knife steels. If you compare it to knives made from simple spring steels, you really can't get VG10 to hold the same fine angles as a spring steel without something going wrong. Call it what you will, an inappropriate angle for the steel, or just a chippy edge - It's different sides of the same coin to me. It doesn't seem to have as much toughness as many other steels.



What's the knife?


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## Kippington (Nov 27, 2018)

It's one of my lasers made from spring steel. I can't get this kind of an angle on a VG10 knife, the thing would fail so fast...

Oh and it's not just the spring steels either, I'd be willing to bet that many of the PM steels have a higher toughness than VG10 too, even if they have a higher hardness.




Don't get me wrong though, toughness is only one aspect of the steel to take into consideration. I still enjoy using VG10 for its other neat properties.


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## Benuser (Nov 27, 2018)

I'm an ignorant about metallurgy, but remember photos of VG-10 having quite large, randomly distributed carbides.


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## CoteRotie (Nov 27, 2018)

Mjdavid said:


> Th
> 
> Where did you see a quartz watch priced at $1,000?



I have one of these, which is WAY over $1,000 just because I like the styling and materials. Basically an expensive Swatch. 

I also have a Shun VG10 Santoku that is actually pretty decent, but goes completely unused. Mostly what I use are non-stainless Aogami Super or #1 or White #1 knives. I do have a 230mm stainless Saji yanagiba that gets occasional use when I don't want to get my larger Yani out. It's too short to be useful as a true Yani.


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## Barmoley (Nov 27, 2018)

Shun vg10 used to be chippy, not just out of the box I've seen many and sharpened many, since for a time these were the jknives to get. To be fair they opened many eyes to what kitchen knives could be. I am with Jules, maybe it's the angle that the steel and that particupar heat treat couldn't take. Tanakas by all the reports don't suffer from the same and they are pretty thin behind the edge with seemingly steep angles.


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## inferno (Nov 27, 2018)

Kippington said:


> Oh and it's not just the spring steels either, I'd be willing to bet that many of the PM steels have a higher toughness than VG10 too, even if they have a higher hardness.



not very likely I'd say.

Almost all powders have 0,5-2% more carbon than vg10. carbon makes stuff brittle. a lot of carbon makes the steel a lot brittle. 1,5% is a lot of carbon. 

they put more carbon inside to make the steel harder. harder=more brittle.
They also put a lot of carbon inside to make lots of carbides. And i have feeling this also makes steel more brittle. at least beyond a certain point. And all these steels are full of carbide formers like Cr/V/W/Mo

Vg10 has cobalt inside. Cobalt is tough, and soft. And it does not form carbides. its just hanging around inside the steel doing its own thing. kinda like Ni. Now its not known why they put cobalt inside, it could be to make it more resistant to lose hardness while grinding it. could be something else.


elmax
C 1,7
Cr 18
Mo 1,0
V 3,0
Mn 0,3
Si 0,8

m390
C 1,9
Cr 20
Mo 1,0
V 4,0
W 0,6
Mn 0,3
Si 0,7

zdp189
C 3,0
Cr 20
Mo 1,4
V 0,1
W 0,6
Mn 0,5
Si 0,4

srs15
C 1,5
Cr 13,0
Mo 2,75
V 1,5
W 1,25


s30v
C 1,45
Cr 14,0
Mo 2,0
V 4,0

r2
C 1,25-1,45
Cr 14-16
Mo 2,3-3,3
V 1,8-2,2
Mn 0,4
Si 0,5

vg10
C 0,95-1,05
Cr 14,5-15.5
Mo 0,9-1.2
V 0,1-0,3
Co 1,3-1,5
Mn 0,5


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## Barmoley (Nov 27, 2018)

inferno said:


> not very likely I'd say.
> 
> Almost all powders have 0,5-2% more carbon than vg10. carbon makes stuff brittle. a lot of carbon makes the steel a lot brittle. 1,5% is a lot of carbon.



You make such sweeping generalizations that what you say just isn't true. There are plenty of PM steels that are both tougher than VG10 e.g cpm-m4, cpm-4v, PD1/cruwear, etc and have less carbon e.g 1v, 3v, etc. Not to mention that PM process seems to make steels tougher due to smaller grain and carbide size, so you can't just say PM steels are less tough in general. PM is a process you can make any steel using PM process I would imagine, wouldn't be practical for "simple" steels, but you could.


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## inferno (Nov 27, 2018)

And NONE of those you wrote there above are stainless.
You are comparing apples to oranges.


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## Barmoley (Nov 27, 2018)

You didn't specify stainless, but even CPM-154CM and CTS-XHP are pretty tough, stainless, and have more carbon than VG10. The point is PM is a process not a steel attribute.


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## inferno (Nov 27, 2018)

well we were talking about the supposed lack toughness of vg10 which is stainless, so why compare that to non stainless?
if we can remove 14%Cr from any stainless they will be most likely 2-10x as tough. 

154cm/rwl34/ats34/cts-bd4p is probably around the same toughness as vg10 give or take, because its very close in C and Cr%. powder or not. but none of these steels are very popular for kitchen knives. only the japanese powder grades are popular. the elmax/böhler/s30v i added because those are the typical powder steels used in regular knives.

also, they make a powder version of 12c27 too. its used in damasteel.

and btw i know very well what PM is.


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## Barmoley (Nov 27, 2018)

inferno said:


> well we were talking about the supposed lack toughness of vg10 which is stainless, so why compare that to non stainless?
> if we can remove 14%Cr from any stainless they will be most likely 2-10x as tough.
> 
> 154cm/rwl34/ats34/cts-bd4p is probably around the same toughness as vg10 give or take, because its very close in C and Cr%. powder or not. but none of these steels are very popular for kitchen knives. only the japanese powder grades are popular. the elmax/böhler/s30v i added because those are the typical powder steels used in regular knives.
> ...



You say you do, but then what you say contradicts the reality. PM process significantly improves toughness in some steels http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets2010/Datasheet CPM 154 CMv12010.pdf

This seems to imply that just looking at C and CR % does not predict the toughness of the steel, since production method matters for toughness. In addition other elements in the steel composition also matter.


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## Kippington (Nov 27, 2018)

inferno said:


> Almost all powders have 0,5-2% more carbon than vg10. carbon makes stuff brittle. a lot of carbon makes the steel a lot brittle. 1,5% is a lot of carbon.
> they put more carbon inside to make the steel harder. harder=more brittle.


I've done some rough things to ZDP 189 in the past, even smacking it against a concrete step (not on purpose! ). Keeping in mind it's a stainless with 3 times the carbon content of VG10 (with more chromium... and harder too) it still seems to have better toughness than the latter.


But that's my experience without doing any direct testing between the two, so maybe I'm wrong.


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## inferno (Nov 27, 2018)

barmoley this is marketing material from crucible. I'd take it with a grain of salt. its most likely only the transverse direction that is significantly tougher.

C and Cr are good indicators. since C is what is used to produce carbides and Cr severely reduces toughness. and its also the alloying element they use most of in the steel. and its a carbide former.

pm manufacturing only goes so far. its not a miracle method.

also another thing that is very very important for toughness is how it was heat treated. a hrc value for instance is just a value, you can do 10 different heat treats and end up with that same number, and they will all have different toughness, abrasive wear resistance, adhesive wear resistance, stain resistance.

also here is some reading. i think it explains it pretty well.
the text under the micrographs towards the end
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/10/01/super-steels-vs-regular-knife-steels/


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## inferno (Nov 27, 2018)

I'm not saying vg10 is super good steel, but the powder hi C, hi carbide steels isn't that much better, if any at all. thats what i'm saying.


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## madelinez (Nov 27, 2018)

Well my very unscientific anecdotal evidence is that CPM-154 is significantly tougher than VG-10*

*I've never compared the two with the exact same grind though so that's a pretty pointless contribution.


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## Barmoley (Nov 27, 2018)

inferno said:


> barmoley this is marketing material from crucible. I'd take it with a grain of salt. its most likely only the transverse direction that is significantly tougher.
> 
> C and Cr are good indicators. since C is what is used to produce carbides and Cr severely reduces toughness. and its also the alloying element they use most of in the steel. and its a carbide former.
> 
> ...



Great I was going to refer you to the site, since i thought you would ignore crucible data

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/05/28/chipping-of-edges/

Look for 

"With the transverse toughness specimen the notch and the breaking direction are aligned with the segregated carbide bands. Therefore the crack can grow along those bands of carbides and the toughness with transverse specimens is lower when compared with longitudinal specimens. *Powder metallurgy helps to reduce carbide segregation and therefore improve transverse toughness but has a smaller effect on longitudinal toughness* [16]:"

and the chart below it, both are improved to different degrees.

You made a blanket statement which is wrong, my issue is with the absolutes, no one is saying PM is a miracle method or that heat treat doesn't matter.


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## inferno (Nov 27, 2018)

maybe you could suggest some non custom kitchen knives (like gyuto/santoku) in cpm-m4, cpm-4v, cpm154, cpm-1v or cpm-3v for me to try out?


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 27, 2018)

Having sharpened many cheap stainless (what most culinary students and homeowners use)VG10 seems pretty good in comparison. The grind on a VG10 Nashiji Tanaka is far better than any Shun. When MM Tanaka's stopped using Ginsan to save money & keep cost down went with the VG10 they are pretty easy to sharpen and are good cutters. One of the chef instructors does not like shuns at all and loves his VG10 Nishiji Tanaka says does not have to baby it uses it all the time.

One of the posters in this thread says he has a VG10 knife, but is using various carbon steel knives. That statement speaks volumes


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## labor of love (Nov 27, 2018)

Damnit Keith, I wish you would’ve raved about Tanaka vg10 before Black Friday and cyber Monday sales.


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## labor of love (Nov 27, 2018)

Okay, I’ll keep an open mind here...could you guys name your fave vg10 knives? I know Jon has a couple of things... and yes who doesn’t love Tanaka at this point, but what else?


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## labor of love (Nov 27, 2018)

Also, generally speaking what does “good” vg10 do better than other stainless? Like, why would someone pick vg10 over say swed stainless, ginsanko, etc?
I’ve read that it’s not chippy and the burr isn’t to difficult...okay okay...but what makes you love it so?


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## labor of love (Nov 27, 2018)

Also, for the record my tojiro dp I bought like 7-8 years was to this day still a really great knife for the price. Didn’t suck too much to sharpen.


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## bahamaroot (Nov 27, 2018)

Kurosaki Megumi, an excellent knife in VG10.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 27, 2018)

Craig the MM site is sold out of the Nashiji blades that I like. He had some Dammy VG10 blades. The plastic collars on the D handles don't care for at all. 

The Ginsan lite at K&S noticed has gone up in price. Tho it is still a nice blade at the price.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 27, 2018)

bahamaroot said:


> Kurosaki Megumi, an excellent knife in VG10.



That's my only VG10 they have gone up in price quite a bit since I bought mine. Have a custom African Blackwood handle on it. Don't use it much the Tanaka Ginsan Lite is the only stainless gyuto use these days.


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## Jville (Nov 27, 2018)

Kippington said:


> I've done some rough things to ZDP 189 in the past, even smacking it against a concrete step (not on purpose! ). Keeping in mind it's a stainless with 3 times the carbon content of VG10 (with more chromium... and harder too) it still seems to have better toughness than the latter.
> 
> 
> But that's my experience without doing any direct testing between the two, so maybe I'm wrong.




Kip how did you get that massive chip? For some reason I thought you said it was doing parm but maybe not.



bahamaroot said:


> Kurosaki Megumi, an excellent knife in VG10.



Agree. I've heard masakage has some good vg10 and I would take that bet. Might have to take the plunge.


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## Barmoley (Nov 27, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Also, generally speaking what does “good” vg10 do better than other stainless? Like, why would someone pick vg10 over say swed stainless, ginsanko, etc?
> I’ve read that it’s not chippy and the burr isn’t to difficult...okay okay...but what makes you love it so?



It doesn't do anything better, it is more that vg10 in a good knife shouldn't stop you from buying said knife. So Tanaka vg10 would be good, but no better than Tanaka ginsanko.


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## Kippington (Nov 27, 2018)

Jville said:


> Kip how did you get that massive chip? For some reason I thought you said it was doing parm but maybe not.


Concrete... and alcohol was involved too.


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## HRC_64 (Nov 27, 2018)

I get the feeling that maybe the makers like using it for some reason,
see for example Tanaka using it because its cheaper.

Personally I think I would buy the knife/maker etc and just ignore
the alloy somewhat. There are definitely knives/deals
that only exist made in VG10 because the dealer or maker
spec the knife that way.

The real question I have tho is why VG10 is cheaper than
Gin3 which doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe its the cryo
that sweedish stainless (seems to) need?

I'd be curious for more technical explanations why the makers
like it more than eg Ginsanko.


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## Eloh (Nov 28, 2018)

(Perceived) marketing value
Availabiliy
Price
Workability due to Co (? )


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## Nemo (Nov 28, 2018)

Kippington said:


>



Any chance of a profile shot of that knife?


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## inferno (Nov 28, 2018)

i wonder how ginsanko has gotten its good reputation when its almost identical to sandvik 19c27. a coarse grained steel.

https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/gin3.html
https://www.materials.sandvik/en/pr...ife-steel/sandvik-knife-steels/sandvik-19c27/

this is what sandvik thinks of it:



> "Excellent wear resistance
> Sandvik 19C27 is Sandvik's most wear resistant knife steel grade and developed for abrasive applications. Sandvik 19C27 is the odd grade in the Sandvik knife steel portfolio because it's a coarse carbide grade, unlike the other Sandvik knife steel grades."





> "The coarse carbide grades excel at wear resistance but do not allow keen edge angles and have limited edge stability, due to the sacrifice of toughness related to the coarse microstructure.
> 
> Sandvik 19C27 is developed for industrial blades for cutting cardboard and tough fiber materials. The world class wear resistance is the main reason why this grade should be selected. Sandvik 19C27 is limited in corrosion resistance and we recommend surface coating on Sandvik 19C27 for knife applications to avoid corrosion issues.
> 
> With a recommended hardness range of 55-63 HRC, excellent wear resistance and a coarse carbide structure Sandvik 19C27 is suitable for industrial blades for cutting tough or/and abrasive materials."



by looking at the chemical specs i'd guess vg10 (if done right) is on par in toughness with 19c27 because it 1: has a grain refiner that 19c27 doesn't have and 2: it has a toughener Co. What speaks for the 19c27 is that its slightly lower in C and Cr. its probably cancels out.

and according to larrins actual tests 19c27 which is simple ingot, is pretty much on par with powder cpm154 in toughness if we could allow ourselves to extrapolate a little in the hrc department.

what a surprise...


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## Kippington (Nov 28, 2018)

Nemo said:


> Any chance of a profile shot of that knife?


Hey, I'll PM you!


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## Nemo (Nov 28, 2018)

Kippington said:


> Hey, I'll PM you!


Yeah, sorry... didn't mean to derail.


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## Alexec (Nov 28, 2018)

I have reccomended Tanaka on the 1st page of the post.
Since that goes on i'd like to mention Yu Kurosaki's use of VG10 and Takamura's one.
Anything I mentioned, I have owned and used. But the only one I bought was the Tanaka.

Tho I have to mention that VG10 isn't a steel that I would buy again. Not because it sucks, just because there are other steels that gets the job better, easier without everything mentioned in this thread at the back of my head.
No love for VG10? Absolutely not.It was a fashion some years ago, not a passion though.


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## foody518 (Nov 28, 2018)

The 2 Tanaka damascus VG10's I've purchased I have felt the need to quickly sharpen out and slightly thicken the factory edge. Wouldn't hold worth much. I don't know how to diagnose whether it was overly thin, a wire edge, or something else, other than it crumbled pretty quickly on the cutting board.
Held up just fine after that. 
And I can't say I particularly dislike sharpening VG10 except this one prematurely thickened monosteel VG10 Masanobu...


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## inferno (Nov 28, 2018)

my own theory is that 

1: many, probably the majority of knives with vg10 are not "optimally" HT:ed since they are usually the cheapest japanese knives or the no 2 cheapest (and up of course). so no one really cares.

2: they sometimes put on too thin edges to enhance cutting ability and its a steel that cant really hold that thin of an edge.

3: its mostly but not only mass production knives that use it. so grinding will be done with the most efficient way of removing metal, whatever that way happens to be. i kinda doubt its the big wheel with water and a guy doing it by hand. and most edges are probably overheated (and maybe even rehardened since its air hardening, and then of course untempered) from the factory.

with that being said. all knives i have bought have had more or less chippy edges from the factory. Now i simply remove the first 1-2mm and thin/flat new knives from the start. why not??


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## Jville (Nov 28, 2018)

Kippington said:


> Concrete... and alcohol was involved too.



Haha, well then, that zdp handled that parm like a boss.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 28, 2018)

Mjdavid said:


> Th
> 
> Where did you see a quartz watch priced at $1,000?
> Konosuke makes a fine gyuto...$505 available at ai&om
> *Konosuke Custom VG10 Etched Damascus Wa-Gyuto 210mm Khii Rosewood Handle*


Luxury watches and small production runs. Happens all the time.


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## Paraffin (Nov 28, 2018)

Mjdavid said:


> Where did you see a quartz watch priced at $1,000?



Sorry for the knife OT, but not every market for high-end watches is a collector market for mechanical movements.

I have two TAG Heuer dive watches that are quartz, one priced a bit over $1,000 when I bought it, and the other way over that, but just bling with gold bits in the case and band, same basic design. I don't scuba dive, but used to do a lot of saltwater sailing and kayaking where I needed a robust waterproof watch that still looked good for above water dress. Yeah, I could have used a mechanical watch, but back when I bought these things (like, 20 years ago), the quartz movements where what you got for a dive watch. And they're still selling them.

It's a utilitarian market where you want something ultra-reliable, not a collector market. You have to send it away to pressure test the crown at certain intervals anyway, so it's no big deal to change the battery at the same time.


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## labor of love (Nov 28, 2018)

Paraffin said:


> Sorry for the knife OT, but not every market for high-end watches is a collector market for mechanical movements.
> 
> I have two TAG Heuer dive watches that are quarts, one priced a bit over $1,000 when I bought it, and the other way over that, but just bling with gold bits in the case and band, same basic design. I don't scuba dive, but used to do a lot of saltwater sailing and kayaking where I needed a robust waterproof watch that still looked good for above water dress. Yeah, I could have used a mechanical watch, but back when I bought these things (like, 20 years ago), the quartz movements where what you got for a dive watch. And they're still selling them.
> 
> It's a utilitarian market where you want something ultra-reliable, not a collector market. You have to send it away to pressure test the crown at certain intervals anyway, so it's no big deal to change the battery at the same time.


I just realized how I must sound to someone that isn’t crazy obsessed with jknives.


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## Paraffin (Nov 29, 2018)

labor of love said:


> I just realized how I must sound to someone that isn’t crazy obsessed with jknives.



Hey, let me tell you about the modern copy of a 19th Century British flute I use to play tunes in local Irish sessions.  And that's after 30+ years of playing and collecting guitars, and I thought THAT was a rabbit hole! Every hobby has its own rabbit hole where you can eventually drop any amount of disposable income.

Anyway, back to VG10.... full disclosure, my wife uses a Shun Premier santoku in VG-Max, which is some proprietary variant of VG10. It's not the worst steel in the world. I sharpen it at intervals and it's more work than my carbon knives, not quite as pleasant to sharpen and not as much edge retention as my one knife in HAP40, but it's okay. Hasn't chipped yet, but we use soft hinoki boards for veg, and relatively soft Hi-Soft boards for protein.

As other said above, the main downside I can see with the steel is that it's just not that attractive if you're looking for stainless or semi-stainless and have something like Ginsanko, R2, HAP40 etc. available.


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## MrHiggins (Nov 29, 2018)

I like my Hattori VG10 just fine.


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## Mjdavid (Nov 29, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> Luxury watches and small production runs. Happens all the time.





Paraffin said:


> Sorry for the knife OT, but not every market for high-end watches is a collector market for mechanical movements.
> 
> I have two TAG Heuer dive watches that are quarts, one priced a bit over $1,000 when I bought it, and the other way over that, but just bling with gold bits in the case and band, same basic design. I don't scuba dive, but used to do a lot of saltwater sailing and kayaking where I needed a robust waterproof watch that still looked good for above water dress. Yeah, I could have used a mechanical watch, but back when I bought these things (like, 20 years ago), the quartz movements where what you got for a dive watch. And they're still selling them.
> 
> It's a utilitarian market where you want something ultra-reliable, not a collector market. You have to send it away to pressure test the crown at certain intervals anyway, so it's no big deal to change the battery at the same time.



I think Chef Doom may have misunderstood the premise of my original question so I’ll ask it another way: Considering the amount of skill and labor that goes into a high end (over $500) Japanese Knife, why would they (blacksmiths) “waste it” on VG-10? Who’s going to buy it? I’m not talking about retailers like Williams Sonoma who get their share of consumers willing to splurge on a “fancy knife”. I’m talking about professional cooks and savvy knife enthusiasts (like us) who’ve cultivated an appreciation for the craft and it’s supplemental relationship to sharpening. Hence my title to this thread.

I actually don’t know how this thread got so much attention.


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## labor of love (Nov 29, 2018)

Paraffin said:


> Hey, let me tell you about the modern copy of a 19th Century British flute I use to play tunes in local Irish sessions.  And that's after 30+ years of playing and collecting guitars, and I thought THAT was a rabbit hole! Every hobby has its own rabbit hole where you can eventually drop any amount of disposable income.
> 
> Anyway, back to VG10.... full disclosure, my wife uses a Shun Premier santoku in VG-Max, which is some proprietary variant of VG10. It's not the worst steel in the world. I sharpen it at intervals and it's more work than my carbon knives, not quite as pleasant to sharpen and not as much edge retention as my one knife in HAP40, but it's okay. Hasn't chipped yet, but we use soft hinoki boards for veg, and relatively soft Hi-Soft boards for protein.
> 
> As other said above, the main downside I can see with the steel is that it's just not that attractive if you're looking for stainless or semi-stainless and have something like Ginsanko, R2, HAP40 etc. available.


Well, my contention has always been that vg10 is a tougher more wear resistant steel compared to other stuff the forum favors.
If vg10 can hold a steep edge, sharpen quick, or get really sharp...then please let me know.
Until then I consider it to be a good “beater” steel at best.


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## Bert2368 (Nov 29, 2018)

Got one VG10 knife-.

“Fujitora DP Cobalt Alloy 3 Layers Petty Knife(Utility) 120mm”

For $38 US, I am happy, would buy this again.

It may not be "cutting edge" metalurgy- Still, performance, edge retention and sharpening characteristics are far better than most of the knives I grew up with.

If I collected knives as an end unto itself, followed the bleeding edge of metalurgy, bought only one offs or small run boutique knives by renowned master blade smiths?

I wouldn't be happy. But I'm just cooking, this iteration of VG10 works fine for me, plus I won't cry (much) if someone drops it on a ceramic tile floor point first (like a cheddar headed line cook I worked next to did to my new Henckels chef knife 30 odd years back).

I have a weird personal prejudice, my knives need to perform their designed function well, yet should cost less than my guns?! So I can be happy with adequately made lower end mass production knives.

Subjectively, "The difference between bad and worse is far more noticable than that between good and better"




30


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## Chef Doom (Nov 29, 2018)

Mjdavid said:


> I think Chef Doom may have misunderstood the premise of my original question so I’ll ask it another way: Considering the amount of skill and labor that goes into a high end (over $500) Japanese Knife, why would they (blacksmiths) “waste it” on VG-10? Who’s going to buy it? I’m not talking about retailers like Williams Sonoma who get their share of consumers willing to splurge on a “fancy knife”. I’m talking about professional cooks and savvy knife enthusiasts (like us) who’ve cultivated an appreciation for the craft and it’s supplemental relationship to sharpening. Hence my title to this thread.
> 
> I actually don’t know how this thread got so much attention.


No, I did not misunderstand and I don't appreciate your insulting comment. The very argument you are making is the exact same argument that is made between quartz and mechanical watches.

The argument is not made as much between fountain and rollerball pens because it is understood that higher end rollerballs are more consistent and use better materials so a $500 version is not questioned.

I have mentioned before that the talking points and discussions on watch forums highly mirror knife forums.


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## Larrin (Nov 29, 2018)

inferno said:


> i wonder how ginsanko has gotten its good reputation when its almost identical to sandvik 19c27. a coarse grained steel.
> 
> https://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/yss/search/gin3.html
> https://www.materials.sandvik/en/pr...ife-steel/sandvik-knife-steels/sandvik-19c27/
> ...


Cobalt as a toughening element is a common myth. The higher Cr of VG-10 probably means it is somewhat less tough than 19C27 but of course it is difficult to predict exactly where it would end up. Sandvik is down on 19C27 being a “coarse grained” steel only in relation to every other stainless they have: 13C26, 12C27, etc. 19C27 actually has a finer carbide structure than many other non-PM steels, especially stainless. Both VG-10 and 19C27 are perfectly fine choices as knife steels.


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## agp (Nov 29, 2018)

I love my Kurosaki Fujin VG10. Given I'm not a professional or even a semi professional cook, the edge retention is good enough for me.


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## alvaro_garcia (Nov 29, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> A $500 VG10 GYUTO IS LIKE A $1000 QUARTZ WATCH, A COMPLETE WASTE OF MONEY.



Well, I don't think so, all my Breitling Aerospace (Superquartz Thermocompensated) watches (including one Emergency) are exceptional (which, by the way, each cost several thousands).

Now, with regards to VG10 I cannot comment because I ignore how good or bad it may be.


----------



## parbaked (Nov 29, 2018)

alvaro_garcia said:


> Well, I don't think so, all my Breitling Aerospace (Superquartz Thermocompensated) watches (including one Emergency) are exceptional (which, by the way, each cost several thousands).



Interesting you mentioned Breitling because the Colt Skyracer is probably the only quartz watch I'd buy today.
Having said that I've been wearing a 1982 TAG Professional 200m quartz for the last year because I am too cheap to service my vintage Omegas.
I bought it when I graduated high school, didn't wear it for 25 years, and now it's the only watch I have that's still running...


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## alvaro_garcia (Nov 29, 2018)

parbaked said:


> Interesting you mentioned Breitling because the Colt Skyracer is probably the only quartz watch I'd buy today.
> Having said that I've been wearing a 1982 TAG Professional 200m quartz for the last year because I am too cheap to service my vintage Omegas.
> I bought it when I graduated high school, didn't wear it for 25 years, and now it's the only watch I have that's still running...



I love (and own many) mechanical watches, however the quartz ones are much more practical: they never stop until the battery dies, they're always on time even not wearing them for weeks or months, they're much more accurate, they almost don't need servicing (almost no movement parts in their mechanisms)... Although I recon that there's something "alive" and more valuable in all mechanical watches (they're like small pieces of art).


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## Ryndunk (Nov 29, 2018)

Split the difference. Get a grand seiko spring drive!


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## labor of love (Nov 29, 2018)

Im guessing I can start a “which watch should I get” thread here in the off topic room sometime soon and I could get advice. I had no idea there were so many guys here that are really passionate about watch stuff. Neat.


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## panda (Nov 29, 2018)

labor of love said:


> Im guessing I can start a “which watch should I get” thread here in the off topic room sometime soon and I could get advice. I had no idea there were so many guys here that are really passionate about watch stuff. Neat.


have you not seen the massive what's on your wrist thread??


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 30, 2018)

Battery watches are junk for surfing, when the battery is changed it is no longer waterproof. Citizen Eco Drive 100meter last at least a decade being in the Ocean quite often. Even the lighter Titanium cost under 300.00. Maybe more now have had mine around 15 yrs. still ticking.


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## alvaro_garcia (Nov 30, 2018)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Battery watches are junk for surfing, when the battery is changed it is no longer waterproof. Citizen Eco Drive 100meter last at least a decade being in the Ocean quite often. Even the lighter Titanium cost under 300.00. Maybe more now have had mine around 15 yrs. still ticking.



Hi Keith.

Sorry but you're wrong. I mean and let me explain you: all watches (mechanical and quartz) have a thin rubber ring between the back cover and the case what basically is the hermeticism (and gives the waterproof sealingness around that perimeter). Other rubbers may be located in the crown (better if it's screwed) and push buttons (if it's a chronograph watch). All these points are the weakest points on a watch with regards to sealingness and must be regularly checked.

Every time you take a quartz watch to replace the battery or a mechanical watch to do its regular maintenance (cleaning, oiling, etc), they remove the old rubber ring on the back and replace it for a new one, as well as checking the other ones, as all rubbers deteriorate over time, especially if the watch is immersed in water and even more if it's sea/salty water (regardless how waterproof a watch is).

Should you do yourself (or a person without any knowledge about watches) the battery replacement without changing the rubber rings for new ones, then obviously your watch will certainly be losing tightness over time and will easily become a "junk".

For your information, I do have diving watches labeled 500m and even more, and I try not to swim with them (although sometimes I do) in order to keep their hermeticism as long as possible. Hermeticism is necessary not only to avoid getting water in the case, but also humidity and dust.

Hope this helps.


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## NBrewster (Nov 30, 2018)

I recently bought my first VG-10 knife to be my "guest" knife when cooking with friends. It's a limited run Suisin gyuto and so far I really like it a lot. They claim it's hardened to somewhere around 61 hrc, though I don't have the equipment to actually confirm that.

For me the big selling point is that it gets very sharp, has a profile that gives the user a good sense of what using a proper jknife, is a true stainless, and foregoes all of the finickyness of a carbon knife. Guests love it and I can chill out and not worry about them chipping it, or wiping the knife down every 2 minutes.

Just my thoughts, haven't done fully sharpening yet so maybe I will be cursing the knife in a month or two. Until then, I'm very happy with it, and has a very clear place within my home kitchen.


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## Mjdavid (Nov 30, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> No, I did not misunderstand and I don't appreciate your insulting comment. The very argument you are making is the exact same argument that is made between quartz and mechanical watches.
> 
> The argument is not made as much between fountain and rollerball pens because it is understood that higher end rollerballs are more consistent and use better materials so a $500 version is not questioned.
> 
> I have mentioned before that the talking points and discussions on watch forums highly mirror knife forums.


Chef Doom, I had no intention to insult you and I apologize if I did. After reading this thread word for word, I felt like the topic was straying a little bit so I rephrased my original question. Furthermore, I haven’t raised a single argument. I’m asking a question. You shouted at me.


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## HRC_64 (Nov 30, 2018)

NBrewster said:


> Just my thoughts, haven't done fully sharpening yet ... Until then, I'm very happy with it



This is basically "the problem" with VG-10 in nutshell: 

"its great until you have to sharpen it"

Many home users will never (rarely) sharpen the knife.

Which leads makers to de-prioritize the HT 
for sharpenabilty, which probably leads
to poor reputation with people who actually 
sharpen alot or value sharpenability 
(ie, KKF types)


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## NBrewster (Nov 30, 2018)

@HRC_64 Which is why I wrote it  fully prepared to be infuriated when the time comes.

We will see how it goes, but given Suisin's typical quality I'm hopeful.


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## clsm1955 (Dec 1, 2018)

I like my Togiharu 240 gyuto in VG-10. I sharpen it just to 1K and keep it handy for tough jobs like chopping squash or peeling pineapple so I don't ruin the edges on my more refined knifes. It's also nice to be able to cut up limes for my g and t and be able to enjoy my drink without having to clean the knife right away [emoji4]


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## Mucho Bocho (Dec 1, 2018)

Peeling pineapple is a tough kitchen job? If your knives are losing their edge after a pineapple might be a deburring or wire edge is the culprit. Cut into a piece of wood serif it leaves a dark spot.


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## Chef Doom (Dec 1, 2018)

alvaro_garcia said:


> Well, I don't think so, all my Breitling Aerospace (Superquartz Thermocompensated) watches (including one Emergency) are exceptional (which, by the way, each cost several thousands).
> 
> Now, with regards to VG10 I cannot comment because I ignore how good or bad it may be.


I personally think you over payed by a few thousand dollars.


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## alvaro_garcia (Dec 1, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> I personally think you over payed by a few thousand dollars.



No sir, I didn't. I didn't mention how much I paid for them, but -roughly- their retail price new. If I want to sell any of my watches now, I'd make money.


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## inferno (Dec 1, 2018)

my diamaster diver. all tungsten carbide. mirror polished. one of few. quartz.


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## alvaro_garcia (Dec 1, 2018)

inferno said:


> my diamaster diver. all tungsten carbide. mirror polished. one of few. quartz.



Beautiful one.


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## Mucho Bocho (Dec 1, 2018)

VG-10 post w members posting watches? Remember, ego is the enemy


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## inferno (Dec 1, 2018)

it was the most avantgarde watch you could buy in 1999  it looks like its made from hundreds of small mirrors.

Now i have speedmaster professional double sapphire, "sapphire sandwich".

the rado is for sale and it wont be cheap.


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## inferno (Dec 1, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> VG-10 post w members posting watches? Remember, ego is the enemy


this is the massively OT thread. didnt you get the pm?


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## bahamaroot (Dec 1, 2018)

I've never had a watch made from VG10...


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## alvaro_garcia (Dec 1, 2018)

inferno said:


> my diamaster diver. all tungsten carbide. mirror polished. one of few. quartz.





bahamaroot said:


> I've never had a watch made from VG10...



You're right guys.

By the way, what are, in your opinion, the best stainless (rustproof) steels for knives?


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## inferno (Dec 1, 2018)

z-finit/lc200n/cronidur30

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php?snm=z-finit

and all other nitrogen SS like vanax http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php?snm=vanax
and nitrobe77 http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php?snm=nitrobe

these are the most stainless at least.


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## NO ChoP! (Dec 1, 2018)

So lets sum this up. VG10 is the GShock of knife steals. Ugly but functional. (Coming from a guy with a dozen or more Casio watches, lol)

I have several of the hammered damascus vg10 type knives that are multibranded religated to the home block that take sensational abuse from the family, and have held up for years. I can still slice a tomato or an apple at a whim, though.


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## inferno (Dec 1, 2018)

as what are the best overall steel i'd say aus-8 cryo threated (mac uses this, thier "superior" steel).

I did my own cardboard testing (cutting cardboard for 1h) and the mac aus8 was maybe 15-20% less sharp after the test was done. compared to [email protected] go figure.

I did my test this way: i hade 2 cardboard boxes thast I split in 2. each knife did 1 half each. cut these into 1cm slivers.

after 1 box was done both knives sliced paper.

after 2 boxes done no knife cut paper.

the aus8 was just blunted, no chips.

the r2 has 100 or so microchips. both were very dull.

but the r2 took 10 times longer to sharpen.

its mostly BS this super-steel shenanigans.


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## inferno (Dec 1, 2018)

NO ChoP! said:


> So lets sum this up. VG10 is the GShock of knife steals. Ugly but functional. (Coming from a guy with a dozen or more Casio watches, lol)
> 
> I have several of the hammered damascus vg10 type knives that are multibranded religated to the home block that take sensational abuse from the family, and have held up for years. I can still slice a tomato or an apple at a whim, though.


vg10 is no **** steel. its the most allround stainless steel deemed by the japanese, otherwise they would have opted for something else to mass market. and they didn't.

but only a few makers actually use it to its full potential. its also a high carbon high carbide steel. and therefore wont take a very low angle edge without chipping. 

the problem is that many makers dont do their homework on how to HT it so their knives turn out ****** and chippy. 

thats not to say the steel is **** its the maker thats ****. I'd rather have 12c27 correctly done than r2/srs15/s30v done by a hack. because it will perform better overall.


----------



## panda (Dec 1, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> I personally think you over payed by a few thousand dollars.


LMAO


----------



## Jville (Dec 1, 2018)

inferno said:


> as what are the best overall steel i'd say aus-8 cryo threated (mac uses this, thier "superior" steel).
> 
> I did my own cardboard testing (cutting cardboard for 1h) and the mac aus8 was maybe 15-20% less sharp after the test was done. compared to [email protected] go figure.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think this is a very accurate test. When judging something like edge retention. It's practical use is food not cardboard. Do a test with a heavy workload of veggies or meats and I think it would be a much better representative of actual edge retention. To say both knifes are dull and one is chipped and the other edge just rolled might speak a little bit to toughness, but I think it's a stretch for an edge retention test.


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## HRC_64 (Dec 1, 2018)

Jville said:


> I don't think this is a very accurate test. When judging something like edge retention. It's practical use is food not cardboard. Do a test with a heavy workload of veggies or meats and I think it would be a much better representative of actual edge retention. To say both knifes are dull and one is chipped and the other edge just rolled might speak a little bit to toughness, but I think it's a stretch for an edge retention test.



Hmm...Read all those threads on CATRA testing...
wood pulp is not completely dis-similar to cutting food.

the bigger issue with using paper to test sharpness
is geometry, if the geomtry is optimized for paper 
its usualy a razor blade, which isn't the best for food.

Food is better cut with convexity near the edge,
although I'm sure some people will disagree.


----------



## clsm1955 (Dec 2, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Peeling pineapple is a tough kitchen job? If your knives are losing their edge after a pineapple might be a deburring or wire edge is the culprit. Cut into a piece of wood serif it leaves a dark spot.


Thanks for the suggestion. I'm guessing my "good" knives could easily handle a pineapple. I'm probably just babying them too much. In any case the Togiharu does the job well.


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## Knifefan (Dec 2, 2018)

The only problem with VG10 is that it has large primary carbides, no matter who well you heat treat the steel. If you are not planning to put that super thin low angle edge on it, it will perform well. But at low edge angles, it will start to chip. There is a reason Shun is putting a 30 degree edge on it...


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## Midsummer (Dec 2, 2018)

Knifefan said:


> The only problem with VG10 is that it has large primary carbides, no matter who well you heat treat the steel. If you are not planning to put that super thin low angle edge on it, it will perform well. But at low edge angles, it will start to chip. There is a reason Shun is putting a 30 degree edge on it...



"In order to maximize the life of the blade, regular honing with a Shun steel will be necessary. Weekly honing will extend the time between sharpening significantly. When the time comes to sharpen these premium blades, we recommend using a whetstone, the Kai electric sharpener (specifically designed to sharpen Shun’s 16° blade angle), or sending the knives to a professional sharpener or to our Tualatin, Oregon center for free sharpening."

https://shun.kaiusaltd.com/product-care


----------



## Benuser (Dec 2, 2018)

Knifefan said:


> The only problem with VG10 is that it has large primary carbides, no matter who well you heat treat the steel. If you are not planning to put that super thin low angle edge on it, it will perform well. But at low edge angles, it will start to chip. There is a reason Shun is putting a 30 degree edge on it...


... and their uneven distribution, IIRC from photos.


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## psfred (Dec 2, 2018)

Couple comments here since I'm old enough to remember when there were no quartz watches and 440C was the new "miracle" stainless knife steel.

Shun popularized Japanese style knives using VG-10 to a large extent, and those were the first mass market jknives for the home user, sold to compete with the then ubiquitous "German Stainless" knife sets from Henkles, etc. made from some variety of CroMoVa and 49-56 RC hardness. Needless to say, a VG-10 knife at RC 61 or so used like a typical "beater" chef's knife will chip and end up without a point in no time. Rock chopping, opening cans, prying things off with the tip, and running the knife in a dishwasher with all the rest of the silverware will destroy the edge almost instantly. Factory sharpened edges, very likely on belt sanders, won't help either.

Treated properly I've had no major issues with my Tojiros, although I did manage to chip the paring knife with sloppy use. My gyuto even survived my mother using it to cut pills in half. Edge retention in normal use is several times that of my carbon steel and cheap stainless blades and I've had no real issues sharpening it. I think it's a good "home use" steel -- low enough cost to keep the knives competitive with decent performance and easy enough to manage for home users. May or may not suit professionals, but it's a good steel. Tojiro DP is the largest selling restaurant knife in Japan, which should say something for holding up in hard use. Not something a top end sushi chef would want, but the best choice for mass kitchen use.

As for watches, quartz movements are very inexpensive no matter what watch they are in. I priced a few when a friend had some issues with a good one just in case it had failed (turned out to be some crap on the battery contacts). Plastic gears, no springs to speak of, driven "backwards" by the second hand impulse motor. Why they are not ALL temperature compensated I can't figure out, although some temperature compensation is automatic if the electronics are designed well. Only real drawback is the need to replace the battery annually or so -- they are far more accurate than mechanical watches for the most part, at least until you get into the fairly expensive movements.

Mechanical watches, on the other hand, if well designed and assembled and properly lubricated, will run forever with regular maintenance and care. I have several 21 (or higher) jeweled movements that keep time within a second or two a day and at least the 1950's Elgin in a snapback case averaged out to a few seconds a month, right up there with quartz.

All modern high end watches are jewelry these days, the movement is a tiny fraction of the cost if it's a quartz movement. There are some high end mechanicals around, of course, but Seiko still sells a mid range automatic that is as robust as any of their older watches and is a steal at the price -- it's likely to outlast the owner.

King Seikos are NOT a bargain though -- very expensive up front, and require regular maintenance and replacement of worn parts while being no more accurate than a watch from Target. The spring pressure required to drive that large balance at 28,8000 beats per minute eats the train up.


----------



## Ruso (Dec 2, 2018)

Two words:
Casio
F91w


----------



## Benuser (Dec 2, 2018)

Midsummer said:


> "In order to maximize the life of the blade, regular honing with a Shun steel will be necessary. Weekly honing will extend the time between sharpening significantly. When the time comes to sharpen these premium blades, we recommend using a whetstone, the Kai electric sharpener (specifically designed to sharpen Shun’s 16° blade angle), or sending the knives to a professional sharpener or to our Tualatin, Oregon center for free sharpening."
> 
> https://shun.kaiusaltd.com/product-care


Using a steel is probably the worst you may do, especially with VG-10. It rebuilds an edge from steel that has failed — instead of abrading it. VG-10 is very likely to develop a wire edge: a burr on top of the apex, very sharp, but breaking off at the first use, and taking a bit of the real edge with it. A ruined edge is the result. 
As for Shun's sharpening service: never tried it. According to reports in another forum it is no stone sharpening you get, and a lot of steel is being wasted.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 2, 2018)

psfred you make some good points agree that most Shuns chip because of abuse. I sharpened a home persons chipped shuns taught them basic knife care.

Most pro cooks take care of their knives they have to. In a busy production kitchen you better know how to sharpen your knives too. Had a couple of my thin edge carbons borrowed at work & come back with some chips. I can see how a Tojiro DP would work as an all around blade, but would not be my choice in front of a cutting board for hours. 

I admit my battery watches junk for surfing limited to cheap waterproof when batteries changed always fog up. The Citizen 100m Eco Drive gave years of service in salt water. Not as a dive watch though. It finally quit after more than a decade of rugged abuse in a banquet kitchen & in the Pacific ocean. Still have my second titanium Eco drive over 10 years still good. Never paid much over 200.00 for a watch even my dress Eco Drive I'm a loyal customer.  I did find a gold pocket watch cleaning up the house I moved into. Had it cleaned and a new spring. Now it works & keeps good time. The guy who cleaned & fixed it says it is worth over a grand. It just sits in a drawer


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## labor of love (Dec 2, 2018)

Shuns are pretty bullet proof. I
Notice here that people keep suggesting that other people say they’re chippy-but haven’t heard a first hand account of anyone actually saying that.
What I do see regularly at work is people destroy their shuns in all sorts of ways. The damage would be far worse if these shun users were using nicer jknives.
In reality too many people treat shuns like they’re dexter russels.


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## Barmoley (Dec 2, 2018)

I have first hand experience of shuns chipping. No abuse, not using them as German knives or Dexters. I don't know about now, but when they came out 15 or so years ago, they were chippy.


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## Midsummer (Dec 2, 2018)

Not all Shun is VG10. 

I have an 8 year old 7" vegetable cleaver I bought when I finally felt I could own nice knives in my home kitchen.
I use it sometimes to cut cheese or half a lemon to be squeezed (stainless so its good with acid ingredients. I would not recommend anyone go out and buy one of these. There are better knives to be had at the price. The "VG-max " steel maintains a good edge for a family long time. I have seen no chippyness. My Shun/ Krammer Mejia 6" gyuto (again good utility knife) is R2 and doesn't chip.

My experience with VG10 is with some Torhiro Dp's, a petty and a suji. No issues with that steel. It sharpens well on diamond plates (Jon has some nice ones in 1k and 6k I use his and DMT's on some knives).


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## labor of love (Dec 2, 2018)

Yeah, we’re gonna have to agree to disagree here. Shuns aren’t chippy comparatively. On the stones the steel feels like hard rubber. 
I can’t comment on shuns made 15 yrs ago. But in the last 10 years the shuns I’ve come across regardless of steel choice have been distgustingly chip resistant and built for all sorts of novice abuse.


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## CoteRotie (Dec 2, 2018)

I have a couple of VG-10 Shuns that see limited use, but I have noted some chippyness. (Is that even a word?) The Santoku isn't bad, bot the thinner edge knives are definitely a bit chippy.

On another note, does anybody actually use dive watches anymore? When I dive I use one of these:






I have no use for a "dive watch" given the usefulness of modern dive computers.


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## Grunt173 (Dec 2, 2018)

CoteRotie said:


> I have a couple of VG-10 Shuns that see limited use, but I have noted some chippyness. (Is that even a word?) The Santoku isn't bad, bot the thinner edge knives are definitely a bit chippy.
> 
> On another note, does anybody actually use dive watches anymore? When I dive I use one of these:
> 
> ...


Rub it in. I am still using a Sunnto Zoop dive computer.At 71 years old,I am not investing in a $1200 dive computer,lol, Sure miss the good old days of a dive watch,depth gauge and dive tables.Back surgery put me out of the water this year so might have to sell about $6000 of new Scuba Pro equipment.


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## Paraffin (Dec 3, 2018)

CoteRotie said:


> On another note, does anybody actually use dive watches anymore? When I dive I use one of these:
> 
> I have no use for a "dive watch" given the usefulness of modern dive computers.



Not everyone buys a "dive watch" for diving. When I bought my first TAG Heuer quartz dive watch years ago, it was because I was doing a lot of saltwater sailing, and had a side gig leading sea kayak tours in South Florida. No need for pressure resist, but we're talking constant exposure to saltwater and sun. Especially in the kayak... you might as well be swimming. I could have used a cheaper watch and just tossed and replaced it, but at the time, I had enough disposable income to spring for a TAG that I liked. It worked great in that environment, and then later on I bought another one that was basically the same with a little more bling for dressier occasions. I just liked the design; not as bulky as some dive watches and just very rugged. 

They're both still my main watches, even though I don't to that kind of thing any more (moved up to the Pacific Northwest where the water is too damned cold). If I had a dive hobby I'd be using a computer these days, but for general outdoor ruggedness a "dive watch" still has a place, I think.


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## Chef Doom (Dec 3, 2018)

Mjdavid said:


> Chef Doom, I had no intention to insult you and I apologize if I did. After reading this thread word for word, I felt like the topic was straying a little bit so I rephrased my original question. Furthermore, I haven’t raised a single argument. I’m asking a question. You shouted at me.


I wasn't expecting an apology, you were suppose to retaliate. 

I miss the good old days where people knew how to fan the flames. [emoji41]


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## Chef Doom (Dec 3, 2018)

bahamaroot said:


> I've never had a watch made from VG10...


Now you might be on to something.


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## Grunt173 (Dec 3, 2018)

inferno said:


> my diamaster diver. all tungsten carbide. mirror polished. one of few. quartz.


Awesome,does that have a one way rotating bezel?


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## mille162 (Dec 7, 2018)

CoteRotie said:


> I have a couple of VG-10 Shuns that see limited use, but I have noted some chippyness. (Is that even a word?) The Santoku isn't bad, bot the thinner edge knives are definitely a bit chippy.
> 
> On another note, does anybody actually use dive watches anymore? When I dive I use one of these:
> 
> ...



I now use the same shearwater and love it. My previous Suunto Eon Steel failed once on a dive and another time gave me a lockout (computer error not a dive error). My Oceanic OC1 had the strap fail and fall off my wrist as I started my ascent. Modern dive computers get more and more complicated, and are prone to software glitches, dead batteries, complicated menu systems, and hardware failures. Having a backup old-fashioned wristwatch has proven to be a wise decision...same reason I have an integrated 2nd stage and keep a backup mask and fin strap on the boat.


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## Grunt173 (Dec 7, 2018)

mille162 said:


> I now use the same shearwater and love it. My previous Suunto Eon Steel failed once on a dive and another time gave me a lockout (computer error not a dive error). My Oceanic OC1 had the strap fail and fall off my wrist as I started my ascent. Modern dive computers get more and more complicated, and are prone to software glitches, dead batteries, complicated menu systems, and hardware failures. Having a backup old-fashioned wristwatch has proven to be a wise decision...same reason I have an integrated 2nd stage and keep a backup mask and fin strap on the boat.


Know what you mean.Back in the day,in the 70's and 80's when I taught PADI I had an Aqua Dive Watch and then later on in the years I went to a Seiko.I'm 71 now and just got back into diving three years ago after being away from it for many years,Had to buy all new equipment and wetsuits,about $6000 worth.I am not computer savvy like these new,young divers so trying to get around on a dive computer has been a struggle.I would love the Shearwater instead of my Sunnto Zoop but $$$$. Plus I just had back surgery not to long ago so have to remain dry for awhile.Don't know if I can even dive again.I did try to dive once since in a cold quarry but darn near drowned myself during an emergency underwater and had to kick my way to the surface with 22 pounds of weights and a 100 cubic foot steel on my back.That about done my back in again.I still wear a watch and have underwater dive tables with me as a back up to the new fangled stuff.


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## inferno (Dec 7, 2018)

Grunt173 said:


> Awesome,does that have a one way rotating bezel?



yes. made out of tungsten carbide.


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## tongas (Dec 7, 2018)

So , if I do understand this thread well,

People here are wachting on their quartz watch how long time it does take to get a vg10 steel knive chipping , head down in a sink , regulator breathing !??


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## Grunt173 (Dec 7, 2018)

tongas said:


> So , if I do understand this thread well,
> 
> People here are wachting on their quartz watch how long time it does take to get a vg10 steel knive chipping , head down in a sink , regulator breathing !??


Hey,you are pretty smart.


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## tongas (Dec 7, 2018)

well, pro diving h'd been my job income for the last thirty years and I like kitchen knifes, so no problems here,
but would you suggest some VG10 brands for friends/family members who aren't very carefull with knive maintenance, cutting skills ,...or not


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## Benuser (Dec 7, 2018)

Get them a Victorinox, and smoothen the shoulders.
Or, more refined, a Misono 440. Finely grained, easy sharpening, splendid F&F.


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## inferno (Dec 7, 2018)

tongas said:


> well, pro diving h'd been my job income for the last thirty years and I like kitchen knifes, so no problems here,
> but would you suggest some VG10 brands for friends/family members who aren't very carefull with knive maintenance, cutting skills ,...or not



I'd say the problem with this case is that vg-10 is japanese steel. And its used in japanese factories that make fairly thin japanese knives. 

for the non knife people; german type beefy, thick, higher edge angle blades are better. these are usually made out of 0,4-0,6%C stainless and its usually only hardened to 52-57 or so HRC, this creates a much more abuse resistant blade. it will simply bend/roll before chipping out. since its soft and fairly weak metal. 

I think henckels/zwilling/wüsthoff are whats best for "abusers". look on their site what the hardness is for their blades for the different series of knives. 
another fairly abuse resistant brand is fiskars. but those blades are very thin to make them cut good, but still soft as wood. they bend easily when people try to open jars and whatever with them.

victorinox are actually quite good. these get razor sharp. and use the same steel as the swiss army knives. I think they harden it to 56-57hrc or so in the kitchen knives. these are quite thin blades, not really flimsy but thin and light. no fancy grinds. you can use steels/rods on these, no problem.

Mac and Globals are in the 57-58Hrc region mostly, except the cryoed macs that are 60 or so. I think they use aus-6 (all global) and aus-8 (all mac). These are very abuse resisitant too. I have not seen many chipped globals and macs. these will most likely cut much much better than henckels/zwilling/wüsthoff regular knives. and for longer too. 

also mac is imo better cutters than globals. and the cryoed ones are much much better blades. only a few models are cryoed though (mac calls this the "superior steel"). the dimpled pro/mighty santoku and the gyuto, then the whole superior series. and then the whole ultimate series.

there you have some recommendations for ham fisted people.


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## Benuser (Dec 7, 2018)

The Victorinox in the kitchen are made of Krupp's 4116. Grain a bit coarser than with Wüsthof or Zwilling. For the Swiss Army blades a Sandvik is used, 13C26 IIRC.


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## inferno (Dec 7, 2018)

i was lead to believe they used the exact same steel for the kitchen (cherry wood) knives as the army knives main blade.


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## JCHine (Dec 7, 2018)

Don't mind VG-10 have given some folks MCUSTA knives and while they come back with microchips they do get an fair amount of abuse. Global knives that got the same treatment ended up "fractally serrated". Big plus is the MCUSTA steel treatment doesn't feel to bad on the stones either.


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## inferno (Dec 7, 2018)

globals feel smeary on the stones imo. its simply too soft to be good (on the stones).


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## JCHine (Dec 7, 2018)

inferno said:


> globals feel smeary on the stones imo. its simply too soft to be good (on the stones).


Yes they seem to be both soft and chippy. Found them to be quick to sharpen but gum stuff up.


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## Benuser (Dec 7, 2018)

JCHine said:


> Yes they seem to be both soft and chippy. Found them to be quick to sharpen but gum stuff up.


Hard to raise a burr, hard to get rid of it. Pops up again somewhere else after a wile. A nightmare. And indeed, the only soft steel I know capable of chipping.


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## JCHine (Dec 7, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Hard to raise a burr, hard to get rid of it. Pops up again somewhere else after a wile. A nightmare. And indeed, the only soft steel I know capable of chipping.



May be wrong but had the same experience with a 2 stone progression. After about 15 min of futzing around with one they all got some quality time with "Mr Diamond Flattening Plate". Then 300, 800, 3k progression. Burr came off quite quickly and cleanly. Fatigued steel perhaps? Found refreshing the edge really helps when you are getting a lot of inconsistencies with stainless or infrequently maintained knives.


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## inferno (Dec 7, 2018)

I can do a severely worn global in about 10 minutes. i use these stones. atoma 400 for chips, shapton pro 1k (or glass 1k) then either glass 3k or pro 2k. i have done a lot of these. If i really was result oriented i guess i could do a regular abused global in lower than 5 minutes. but then i would be really hardcore going in all steps except the final 10 strokes of the last stone. it would still shave panties.


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## inferno (Dec 7, 2018)

JCHine said:


> Fatigued steel perhaps?.



highly unlikely! dont worry. you did good.


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## Midsummer (Dec 7, 2018)

inferno said:


> shave panties.



The imagination goes wild...


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## inferno (Dec 7, 2018)

Benuser said:


> Hard to raise a burr, hard to get rid of it. Pops up again somewhere else after a wile. A nightmare. And indeed, the only soft steel I know capable of chipping.


in steel: soft=weak.

so its not really that unreasonable for a soft steel to be also chippy. since if its too soft its actually too weak to hold that edge, and then it can chip out or fold. we all deciede on our own as to what is '"too soft" but I'm fairly certain everything or almost everything below 60hrc will 1: feel like sh1t on the stones. 2: not hold an edge for long and 3: chip out prematurely compared to the owners expection. so lower hrc dont automatically menas better "durability" imo. i think its mostly myth. I'm fairly certain you could find out how this worked if you read a book about these types of steels for instance. but since nobody does. its all just BS. (i have read books on the subject though)


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## inferno (Dec 7, 2018)

Midsummer said:


> The imagination goes wild...


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## JCHine (Dec 8, 2018)

Going to diamond plate first takes the total time to about 10 or so minutes even if they have been using a mimio sharp on it.


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## CoteRotie (Dec 8, 2018)

mille162 said:


> Having a backup old-fashioned wristwatch has proven to be a wise decision...same reason I have an integrated 2nd stage and keep a backup mask and fin strap on the boat.



That's an excellent point- I carry an inexpensive 2nd dive computer as a backup, but nothing beats the simplicity and reliability of a good old fashioned dive watch. Maybe I should reconsider, LOL.


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## Grunt173 (Dec 8, 2018)

CoteRotie said:


> That's an excellent point- I carry an inexpensive 2nd dive computer as a backup, but nothing beats the simplicity and reliability of a good old fashioned dive watch. Maybe I should reconsider, LOL.


You can do that but you might end up like me with a $200 mask and $250 more on top of that to put bifocals in it for seeing the darn thing.Actually,I couldn't even read my computer without my prescription mask.Sucks getting old,that's why I would like the nice lit up display of the Shearwater.


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## mille162 (Dec 9, 2018)

Grunt173 said:


> Sucks getting old,that's why I would like the nice lit up display of the Shearwater.



Shearwater N.E.R.D. is perfect for you (clips to regulator hose, display in front of your mask). They pop up on ebay for $150-$500 from time to tine, set an alert and wait for a deal.


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## Grunt173 (Dec 9, 2018)

mille162 said:


> Shearwater N.E.R.D. is perfect for you (clips to regulator hose, display in front of your mask). They pop up on ebay for $150-$500 from time to tine, set an alert and wait for a deal.


Thanks for the recommendation.I'll have to see what Leisurepro has in store.


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