# Whetstone for thinning. Recommendations.



## Perverockstar (Jan 19, 2022)

Hello, people.

I have a Shun Premier Chefs Knife which has been my main tool for at least 10 years. 

It requires a very serious thinning.

I have a JCK 400/1200 combination stone and it barely does a thing on it.

What are your recommendations for bringing my knife back to like? 

What stone do you recommend?

Thank you.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Jan 19, 2022)

Course sandpaper in a few different grits wrapped around your stone.

If you think you're going to do other knives and want a dedicated stone, I like a Norton Crystolon and then India Fine before going to my water stones.

I don't stress cosmetics much so can't help too much there.


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## tostadas (Jan 19, 2022)

Perverockstar said:


> Hello, people.
> 
> I have a Shun Premier Chefs Knife which has been my main tool for at least 10 years.
> 
> ...


3m pro grade or rhynowet redline sandpaper in grits 120 - 400 for thinning. To refinish, you can also use sandpaper starting from around 220, and finish depending on what you like. For a good balance of performance and aesthetics, I like 800 grit for a smooth brushed look that doesnt suffer from sticking issues.


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## M1k3 (Jan 19, 2022)

Coarse sandpaper, 80-220ish range. I'd start at 120 most likely.

Sigma 240. Much better/less thirsty stone if you seal the sides and bottom.

Norton Crystolon Coarse (or Sharpening Supplies brand).

Following any of these options up with a Shapton Glass 500 will put you in a good position for finishing.


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## GorillaGrunt (Jan 19, 2022)

+1 sigma 240 sealed, Shapton Pro 120, Baryonyx Mutt. I like to use one of the grooved SiC stone fixers to dress the surfaces of coarse stones


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## Rangen (Jan 19, 2022)

What would you seal the 240 with, if you are saving your one precious tube of Cashew lacquer, that you wonder if you can ever obtain again, for JNats?

Edit: I have a Shapton Pro 120, and it about screams to do this kind of work.


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## tostadas (Jan 19, 2022)

Rangen said:


> What would you seal the 240 with, if you are saving your one precious tube of Cashew lacquer, that you wonder if you can ever obtain again, for JNats?
> 
> Edit: I have a Shapton Pro 120, and it about screams to do this kind of work.


Spray shellac is easy


Amazon.com


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 19, 2022)

Rangen said:


> Edit: I have a Shapton Pro 120, and it about screams to do this kind of work.


Sure it's fast, but not good for stainless clad knives.. or at least my Sukenari ginsan. Unfortunately there's virtually no discussion about the different metals using in cladding and their impact on sharpening/thinning. But my experience was the SP120 created very deep scratches in the soft stainless cladding that I didn't have the patience to remove even with 80grit sandpaper.

I fourth the recommendation of using a sandpaper progression starting at 120grit


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## M1k3 (Jan 19, 2022)

Epoxy works also. 

PRO TIP: 
Fold and cut paper to wrap around the bottom and sides of the stone. 
Cover sharpening face of stone with painters tape. 
Smear epoxy or spray shellac on paper liberally.
Apply epoxy or shellac lightly to the stone.
Wrap paper around stone. 
Secure paper with a rubber band or whatever you feel like using. 
Allow to dry overnight or however long is needed for curing. 
Apply a layer of epoxy or shellac to the outside of paper.
Allow to dry or cure.
Remove tape from sharpening side.


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## Dull_Apex (Jan 19, 2022)

I tried sandpaper for a while and didn't like it so went up a level in cost to a hardware store oilstone. 

Are you looking for a single use solution?


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## M1k3 (Jan 19, 2022)

It may seem like a lot of work to make a stone better. But in my opinion for removing a lot of metal *NOW*, it's worth it for the Sigma 240. Really helps to keep the stone "just working" and less finicky.


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## tostadas (Jan 19, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Epoxy works also.
> 
> PRO TIP:
> Fold and cut paper to wrap around the bottom and sides of the stone.
> ...


Oh I dont even use paper. Just protect the sharpening face with painter's tape, then do a really light coat of spray shellac on the sides to seal. Wait a few hours to dry, then apply additional coats, repeat 4-5 times. The reason I don't go heavy on the initial coat is so that the stone doesnt end up sucking up a whole ton of shellac. Instead, whatever ends up on the outside will dry and make the stone less permeable for subsequent layers.


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 19, 2022)

If you choose sandpaper I recommend 3M Pro Grade Precision with Cubitron II. I find it superior to both black silicon carbide WetOrDry and Indasa Rhynowet Redline paper. The non-slip backing makes it easy to use without tape, glue, or clamps, and it lasts longer than other paper.

For a stone I am pleased with the Zandstra FOSS 7205 speed skating stone that HeavyHanded on Bladeforums recommend. It is a two grit stone and can be used with water or oil. It is aggressive without wearing overly fast.


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 19, 2022)

tostadas said:


> 3m pro grade or rhynowet redline sandpaper in grits 120 - 400 for thinning.



I see you've used both of these as well. For thinning (rather than finishing) I found the 3M Pro Grade Precision paper notably superior. What has been your experience?


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## M1k3 (Jan 19, 2022)

3M Pro Cubitron!!


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## tostadas (Jan 19, 2022)

Mr.Wizard said:


> I see you've used both of these as well. For thinning (rather than finishing) I found the 3M Pro Grade Precision paper notably superior. What has been your experience?


They both wear out really fast. I have more of the 3m because I can buy it locally. But for each one, I split a whole sheet into 3 (approx size of my atoma plate). And for each piece, I can do maybe 2 passes on each side of a knife before the paper is basically spent. If I use 1 piece each of 120, 220, 400, I can remove up to about 0.1mm behind the edge of a knife, depending on steel.


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 19, 2022)

@tostadas How many strokes per pass would you estimate? How many minutes of work? I haven't bought paper in a while and I hope they haven't cheapened it.


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## tomsch (Jan 19, 2022)

I've been using my Atoma diamond plate #140 recently to do some serious thinning on a beater knife. I typically use the Atoma for stone flattening but it seems to work quickly. It does leave a pretty serious scratch pattern that needs to be cleaned up with a finer grit but it does seem to work.


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## Facelessman (Jan 19, 2022)

Instead of creating a new thread, i think it's better to ask a question here on this related topic. Hope the OP doesn't mind.

I'm very new to knife thinning. I thined stainless steel knife once before (just to gain some experience) using 1000 grit and natural stone. I didn't have any lower grit stone at that time. Recently, i just got 220 grit stone (Lobster by Naniwa). Used it on a few stainless steel knife before but not thinning no problem. When i try to thin my high carbon steel with it ... I found that stone surface become really smooth and no longer bite in about 5-10 mins of thinning. So i have to use diamond plate to bring the biting ability back. Is this normal? If not what could it be the reason? My skill or the stone? Thanks in advance


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## M1k3 (Jan 20, 2022)

Facelessman said:


> Instead of creating a new thread, i think it's better to ask a question here on this related topic. Hope the OP doesn't mind.
> 
> I'm very new to knife thinning. I thined stainless steel knife once before (just to gain some experience) using 1000 grit and natural stone. I didn't have any lower grit stone at that time. Recently, i just got 220 grit stone (Lobster by Naniwa). Used it on a few stainless steel knife before but not thinning no problem. When i try to thin my high carbon steel with it ... I found that stone surface become really smooth and no longer bite in about 5-10 mins of thinning. So i have to use diamond plate to bring the biting ability back. Is this normal? If not what could it be the reason? My skill or the stone? Thanks in advance


Try soaking the stone for 10-15 minutes at least.


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## Facelessman (Jan 20, 2022)

That's what i already did. But thanks will try to soak it a little longer next time


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## tostadas (Jan 20, 2022)

Mr.Wizard said:


> @tostadas How many strokes per pass would you estimate? How many minutes of work? I haven't bought paper in a while and I hope they haven't cheapened it.


Hard to say because I don't necessarily count, and I'll focus more in some areas with more pressure than others. If I were to throw out a wild guess, maybe 40 or 50 per pass? I go slow to make sure not to remove too much material and kill a portion of the edge, especially at the lower grits. I'll spend maybe 1 to 1.5hr for a thinning session, but that would include higher grits to refinish so I can compare apples to apples, before and after. On some knives, I've gone back 3 or 4 more times until I got the result I wanted.


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## Nemo (Jan 20, 2022)

tostadas said:


> They both wear out really fast. I have more of the 3m because I can buy it locally. But for each one, I split a whole sheet into 3 (approx size of my atoma plate). And for each piece, I can do maybe 2 passes on each side of a knife before the paper is basically spent.



Sandpaper definitely loses some bite after the first few passes but it still cuts fairly well.

It almost seems as though it behaves as though it's a finer grit than advertised after the first half dozen passes.

Or maybe it was a coaresr than advertised grit during those passes?

80 grit will still remove a fair bit of metal, even after a couple of hundred passes. Just not as much as in those first few passes.

You do need to add a bit of water from time to time or it seems to load up a bit.


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## tostadas (Jan 20, 2022)

Nemo said:


> Sandpaper definitely loses some bite after the first few passes but it still cuts fairly well.
> 
> It almost seems as though it behaves as though it's a finer grit than advertised after the first half dozen passes.
> 
> ...


Yea I'll admit, my guesstimate could be way off. Takeaway would be that sandpaper is very effective but needs to be replaced often if you want to keep cutting at the fastest rate.


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## M1k3 (Jan 20, 2022)

Facelessman said:


> That's what i already did. But thanks will try to soak it a little longer next time


Soak it longer?


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## Facelessman (Jan 20, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Soak it longer?



Yes. You mentioned that i should soak it at least 20 mins, right? I might try to soak the stone for 30 - 40 mins before i use it next time.


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## M1k3 (Jan 20, 2022)

Facelessman said:


> Yes. You mentioned that i should soak it at least 20 mins, right? I might try to soak the stone for 30 - 40 mins before i use it next time.


It might be a stone that just wants to be perma soaked.


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## Perverockstar (Jan 20, 2022)

tomsch said:


> I've been using my Atoma diamond plate #140 recently to do some serious thinning on a beater knife. I typically use the Atoma for stone flattening but it seems to work quickly. It does leave a pretty serious scratch pattern that needs to be cleaned up with a finer grit but it does seem to work.



I was recommended this plate in a FB group.

I would like something that does not require a lot of preparation. Something that would just let me to set and go would be great.

Of course, I have no issues on polishing the sides after thinning the blade.

For the people recommending sand paper. What would be the process?

This is the very first time I'm thinning a knife. Of course, besides already trying doing it on the 400 side of my combination stone...


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## mrmoves92 (Jan 20, 2022)

I like my Nano Hone 200. It is splash and go, and it works well for me. The grit is much more consistent than my Gesshin 220 (pink brick). I found that if I used a lot of pressure, the Gesshin 220 would leave deep scratches that would take a long time to get out, where using the same amount of pressure with the Nano Hone 200 would not leave deep scratches. The Gesshin 220 is a good stone, and I have used almost all of mine (I only have 1-2 mm left), but I think that I will just use the Nano Hone 200 in the future instead of replacing the Gesshin 220.


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## TokushuKnife (Jan 20, 2022)

mrmoves92 said:


> I like my Nano Hone 200. It is splash and go, and it works well for me. The grit is much more consistent than my Gesshin 220 (pink brick). I found that if I used a lot of pressure, the Gesshin 220 would leave deep scratches that would take a long time to get out, where using the same amount of pressure with the Nano Hone 200 would not leave deep scratches. The Gesshin 220 is a good stone, and I have used almost all of mine (I only have 1-2 mm left), but I think that I will just use the Nano Hone 200 in the future instead of replacing the Gesshin 220.


I second the NanoHone 200, IMO it is the best in the range. Very fast, and will erase aroma 140 scratches.


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## captaincaed (Jan 20, 2022)

Rangen said:


> What would you seal the 240 with, if you are saving your one precious tube of Cashew lacquer, that you wonder if you can ever obtain again, for JNats?
> 
> Edit: I have a Shapton Pro 120, and it about screams to do this kind of work.


Minwax Polycrilic dries absolutely clear, seems to work well on Jnats, might be worth a go. It’s a bit viscous, sits on top the stone, easy to build up a few layers, and the surface it leaves is grippy, easy to handle the stone after.


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 20, 2022)

tostadas said:


> Yea I'll admit, my guesstimate could be way off. Takeaway would be that sandpaper is very effective but needs to be replaced often if you want to keep cutting at the fastest rate.



If one wants it to cut at _the fastest_ rate it would indeed have to be replaced very often. When doing a hand rubbed finish common advice is to "use sandpaper like it were free." Echoing what Nemo wrote however it may last quite a bit past the loss of initial aggression, and this is where I found the Cubitron II paper to be plainly superior to others. Black silicon carbide is friable and the paper wears totally smooth, while conventional alumina paper (like Red Line) gets so blunt that it cannot work on the wide areas (and therefore low point pressure) of thinning. The Cubitron II paper keeps on working with moderately increased pressure for several times longer.

However I took a hard look at the current "3M Pro Grade Precision" packaging shown on HomeDepot.com and I cannot see "Cubitron" anywhere. It just says "premium mineral" now. I am going to stop recommending this paper unless I can confirm that it is still the same stuff.

This is the older packaging. Notice the stylized "CUBITRON II" right in the middle of the front.


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Jan 20, 2022)

When I first started using Cubitron II sand paper, I really didn't notice much difference. I had high hopes as the Cubitron II 2x72 belts are the best belts that I have used and I'm totally sold on them.

Then out of happenstance I used a sheet of the previous W/D that 3M made. No comparison, the Cubitron II lasts way longer.

I don't thin with W/D paper, but for those that do give WD40 a try. I use it on other W/D applications and find it makes the W/D cut a lot longer.


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## DanielC (Jan 20, 2022)

I use Atoma 140 to do full shaping of blades as I move them from my grinders to hand work. Everything sees an Atoma 140 as a baseline after that. It is fast but if you use too much pressure where there is soft iron, like cladding, it can rip a diamond out and gouge your work. I've had the diamond media actually stuck in cladding in several occasions. It's a test of patience, but it's one of the only types of coarse options I know of that are fast and don't need to be dressed.

Sandpaper sounds like a good option for thinning. I've never used it in the ways described because as a maker that began with western mindset, sandpaper is all we use, all those guys use, so it was all I could do to get away from sandpaper as much as possible.

Personally I feel like anything over 200 grit takes a long time for me. I'm always looking to remove material away the fastest first. Not just for speed but precision too. After the initial geometric alteration made to the blade, it's all scratch removal after that, and a 400 grit Atoma wipes out 140 grit atoma marks pretty efficiently.

For nihonto inspired work that I have been doing recently, I have even gone more coarse than an Atoma 140 and have a 60 grit brick of silicon carbide, a Nubatama from the late Ken Schwartz of Precise Sharpening. It works well with establishing geometry with high pressure, but I would say would be too aggressive for thinning with an increasingly more delicate edge.

That's my way of going about removing metal.


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## Kiru (Jan 26, 2022)

I will have to suggest the suehiro LD 180 grits from Migoto(that's where I bought mine but you can buy them anywhere!)
It has a good balance between slow wearing and cutting speed, I've tried shapton pro 120 and atoma 140, don't think they can do a job as good as the LD180, the Shapton pro cuts very slow if you don't refresh it with SiC powder often, and Atoma 140 dies after a while, it will still scratch the blade but very slow.
If you're talking about thicker than a snicker type of thick I will have to suggest you to get someone to thin for you with a grinder... The 180 grit is quick but it will take a while.
Personally I have not had any success with sandpaper thinning... maybe I didn't pick a good enough sandpaper, it stops cutting after couple passes.


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## ModRQC (Jan 26, 2022)

Kiru said:


> I will have to suggest the suehiro LD 180 grits from Migoto(that's where I bought mine but you can buy them anywhere!)
> It has a good balance between slow wearing and cutting speed, I've tried shapton pro 120 and atoma 140, don't think they can do a job as good as the LD180, the Shapton pro cuts very slow if you don't refresh it with SiC powder often, and Atoma 140 dies after a while, it will still scratch the blade but very slow.
> If you're talking about thicker than a snicker type of thick I will have to suggest you to get someone to thin for you with a grinder... The 180 grit is quick but it will take a while.
> Personally I have not had any success with sandpaper thinning... maybe I didn't pick a good enough sandpaper, it stops cutting after couple passes.



I agree.

Low-grit sandpaper can be fast, but needs constant refreshing. Stones if slower do that naturally.

I'll say, on the cheap side of things, that the Cerax 320 does surprisingly well grinding stuff. The downside is, the more there is to remove, the more you will dish it - like, a really clear visual reciprocation of looking at a choil and thinking "ouch", and looking at a stone dish and thinking "ouch".


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## Mr.Wizard (Jan 27, 2022)

ModRQC said:


> I'll say, on the cheap side of things, that the Cerax 320 does surprisingly well grinding stuff.



The one I have is very poor at grinding stuff. I have tried repeatedly with different amounts of water and pressure and it never removes much metal. The only use I can find for it is starting a kasumi finish.


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## ModRQC (Jan 27, 2022)

Mr.Wizard said:


> The one I have is very poor at grinding stuff. I have tried repeatedly with different amounts of water and pressure and it never removes much metal. The only use I can find for it is starting a kasumi finish.



I felt that too back when I was only soaking it. My first spent a good deal of its life doing just that - starting Kasumi. Or covering on a coarser stone - likely Sigma 240.

Permasoaked it when there was less than 10mm thick to it. Kept on polishing only with it just avoiding the soak. And at one point as it was dwindling, I went back to some grinding tests and sharpening tests, wondering should I buy another one of that?

I did. It sure doesn’t hog steel like thinning a thick german knife. But I was surprised by speed. Either I didn’t judge it correctly from the onset, either it loves permasoaking. Probably a bit of both, more of the former.

Love that stone.


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## zizirex (Jan 28, 2022)

I just ordered the new Nanohone 100 micron diamond resin.

i hope it will meet my expectation.


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## Troopah_Knives (Jan 28, 2022)

I've got a quick thinning question. Figure I'll ask here so as not to open another thread. How do you all thin tips? I find mine always come out uneven because they flex away from the stone as I remove material.


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## tcmx3 (Jan 28, 2022)

Kiru said:


> I will have to suggest the suehiro LD 180 grits from Migoto(that's where I bought mine but you can buy them anywhere!)



I will emphatically second this suggestion.

Ive retired my SP120 and SG220.

WRT sandpaper, I dont know; I have a Kasfly and the main issue I have with it is that the sandpaper seems to make contact everywhere all the time always. so even though for actually like, thinning out a chunky bevel, for actually setting geometry I dont find that a usable solution. 

The Debado 180 though is fantastic. I especially like that it's quite hard and needs minimal flattening in comparison to the two I listed prior. It also can be refreshed very quickly by an atoma 140 or the handy included nagura.


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## ethompson (Jan 28, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> I've got a quick thinning question. Figure I'll ask here so as not to open another thread. How do you all thin tips? I find mine always come out uneven because they flex away from the stone as I remove material.



Not a maker, so take my experience with a handful of salt. I’ve had good luck with diamond plates. They don’t take a lot of pressure to work well and their stay-flat nature helps with precision. Using light pressure helps me limit the flex and it’s fast enough for my needs.


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## ModRQC (Jan 28, 2022)

Debado 180 was on my list to replace Sigma 240 when it’ll be dead. Guess I’ll make it head of the list now.


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## ModRQC (Jan 28, 2022)

Nano Hone Extra Thick Ceramic Whetstone #200


Nano Hone is an American company run by a husband & wife team, Harrelson and Sayuri Stanley, producing innovative and integrated sharpening products; we often call these the 'Apple' products of the sharpening world. They are designed intuitively and conscientiously so that sharpeners can truly...




www.toshoknifearts.com


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## tostadas (Feb 14, 2022)

Mr.Wizard said:


> @tostadas How many strokes per pass would you estimate? How many minutes of work? I haven't bought paper in a while and I hope they haven't cheapened it.





tostadas said:


> Hard to say because I don't necessarily count, and I'll focus more in some areas with more pressure than others. If I were to throw out a wild guess, maybe 40 or 50 per pass? I go slow to make sure not to remove too much material and kill a portion of the edge, especially at the lower grits. I'll spend maybe 1 to 1.5hr for a thinning session, but that would include higher grits to refinish so I can compare apples to apples, before and after. On some knives, I've gone back 3 or 4 more times until I got the result I wanted.


OK so I did a thinning session today with some sandpaper. For each sheet laid on top of an atoma block for flatness, I did 3 passes per side before the sheet was pretty much spent. Each pass was roughly 50 strokes (back and forth equals 1 stroke). And I spent about 10mins per sheet, going slowly and checking progress frequently. A single progression of 1 sheet ea (120, 220, 400, then onto stones: 1k, 2k, 6k) yielded roughly 0.1mm removal behind the edge. And that took about 1hr. Refinishing will take probably at least another hour or 2, but I think you were most interested in the thinning part.

I also compared 3M vs Rhynotwet redline and did not notice any significant difference between the 2 brands.


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## M1k3 (Feb 14, 2022)

tostadas said:


> I also compared 3M vs Rhynotwet redline and did not notice any significant difference between the 2 brands.


Good to know. 

I recommend the 3M only because it's really easy to get ahold of (Home Depot, Amazon, etc.) and good quality.


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## refcast (Feb 14, 2022)

Troopah_Knives said:


> I've got a quick thinning question. Figure I'll ask here so as not to open another thread. How do you all thin tips? I find mine always come out uneven because they flex away from the stone as I remove material.



I either use lighter pressure and a faster cutting stone. Or I flex the tip so it makes more contact with the stone and thin that way as the flex is applying some pressure


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## tostadas (Feb 14, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Good to know.
> 
> I recommend the 3M only because it's really easy to get ahold of (Home Depot, Amazon, etc.) and good quality.


I bought a bunch of rhynowet online to compare since the knife makers tend to like it for finishing. Price when buying in bulk were comparable to the 3m at home depot, which I also have quite a bit of.


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## DanielC (Feb 15, 2022)

tostadas said:


> I bought a bunch of rhynowet online to compare since the knife makers tend to like it for finishing. Price when buying in bulk were comparable to the 3m at home depot, which I also have quite a bit of.



Rhynowet is usually superior because most big box stores only carry grits above 220ish in silicon carbide or the black grit texture. Rhynowet Redline is all Aluminum Oxide for all grits. AlO tends to dull slower on steel than SiC.

Some stores Carry 3M purple, or their "Cubitron II technology" sandpaper, which remains AlO through whatever grits they offer. I find it similar to Rhynowet and locally sourced.


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## inferno (Feb 18, 2022)

Perverockstar said:


> Hello, people.
> 
> What are your recommendations for bringing my knife back to like?
> 
> ...



easiest solution: get a shapton 220 pro from www.cleancut.se you will have it the day after if you're in stockholm.

sigma 240 is also good. either one will do. the shapton is splash and go and the sigma is a soaker that takes a week to dry. the sigma can't hold any water though, so you will be splashing it every 7-8 seconds or so 

i simply spray painted mine with a rattle can. dry in 15 minutes. now it holds water.

----------------

sandpaper has to be run dry. otherwise the paper clogs up and stops cutting very quickly. this creates a lot of dust.

hornbach has the bosch metal a4 papers. maybe k-rauta and bauhaus have it too. dont waste your time with "regular" sandpaper.

rhynowet you probably have to import from the US, shipping should be a month or so.

the 3m cubitron paper can be found at würth, only place i know that have it. you probably have to go to one of their stores. and you will probably have to buy a whole 20pack. and its not gonna be very cheap either.

----------------

crystolons are more or less impossible to find in sweden, dictum and fine-tools in germany don't carry them either.


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