# What first and durable japanese knife should I get



## Bean (Jan 3, 2021)

Hello,

I'm new on the forum.
I'm looking for a new Gyuto and Nakiri. The task is not easy, there are a lot of choices. That's why I'm coming to you for guidance and to find out why.

Thx!

LOCATION
What country are you in? *Switzerland*


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)? *Gyuto and Nakiri*

Are you right or left handed? *Right*

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?* I’m used to the western handle, but I can change if the Japanese handle allows a better grip or if this constraint should be removed.*

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)? *Gyuto : 210 mm and Nakiri : 180 mm (more or less).*

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no) *Yes.*

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife? *300 USD per knife.*


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment? *At home.*

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)

*For gyuto : all the main tasks related to meat. 
For Nakiri : all the main tasks related to to vegetables.*

What knife, if any, are you replacing? *None.*

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.) *Pinch grip.*

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.) *Push-Cut, Chop.*

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

*Excellent sharpness and grip.
Steel not too hard to avoid plastic deformation.*

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)? *A sober knife and resistant to scratches and stains.*

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)? *Light and front balanced.*

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)? *Out of the box sharp ideally, easy to sharpen, great food release.*

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)? *At most once a week.*

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
*Yes.*
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
*No.*
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
*Yes.*
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
*Yes.*


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

*Objectives in order of importance :
- Performing
- Low maintenance (several years of life)
- Good aesthetics
- Identical handles for both knives.*


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## JayS20 (Jan 3, 2021)

Hi,
If you can I would check out Damastmesser handgeschmiedet Schleifsteine Schneidebrett Küchenmesser in person. They have quite some sortiment, Marco and the staff is nice and you can try out if you like Japanese handles. Also no custom duties.


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## Bean (Jan 6, 2021)

Thank you for the website!
I found some gyuto :
- Ashi Hamono Shirogami
- Konosuke GS / GS+ (blade too thin?)
- RyuSen Super Gold (edge hardness too hard?)
- Kei Kobayashi SG2 Morado (edge hardness too hard?)

Can you recommend a reference or another one?


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## nwshull (Jan 6, 2021)

As a note, gyutos are typically designed for boneless protein. Japanese kitchens use honesukis for poultry and deba or yo deba for fish. If you're looking for a knife that's primary purpose is to go through protein with bones, a yo deba is probably a better choice than a gyuto. However, its going to suck for produce. But that's probably the point of the nakiri.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jan 6, 2021)

Welcome to the forum!

What type of cutting board do you use? What is the reason to avoid hard steel? Bones, or frozen meats?


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## inferno (Jan 6, 2021)

i would avoid anything in sg2/r2. its usually quite chippy out of the box, and its not exacly easy/fast to sharpen. its a specialist stainless steel.

maybe look into a mac/misono/masamoto stainless to begin with. i like macs myself. japanesechefsknife.com sells misonos and masamoto stainless models. macs are everywhere. also masahiro makes a few lines that might be interesting.

before you know how to sharpen there is no reason at all to go above this level imo.


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## Bean (Jan 6, 2021)

My cutting board is made of wood (teak). I don't intend to cut hard objects.

I don't have much experience in sharpening. I imagine that a very hard steel requires more experience.
So @inferno may be right.


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## Benuser (Jan 6, 2021)

Hardness doesn't predict easy or difficult sharpening. Generally speaking, it's the deburring which causes problems. Has more to do with large or clumping carbides than with hardness.
Have you considered a stainless cladded carbon core blade? Easy sharpening, fine edge, edge retention of a carbon blade without the rust concern. E.g.








JCK Natures Deep Impact Series Gyuto (180mm to 240mm, 3 sizes)


Aogami Super is premier Japanese high carbon steel. Deep Impact Aogami Super Gyuto knife is heat treated to HRc.64-65 and have outstanding cutting performance.




japanesechefsknife.com




Is now out of stock, paid USD175 including shipping for the 210mm.
Very finely grained Aogami Super, 64Rc, no trace of brittleness. Best edge retention I've ever seen on crappy poly boards.


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Jan 6, 2021)

Teak is not super hard so I think most popular knife steels should be fine on it. I learned sharpening with VG10 steel (tojiro and shun) and King 1000 grit stone, so I don't feel SG2 is particularly difficult to sharpen. At least it's easier than VG10, especially now I have shapton glass stones and chosera stones. But I do agree that you can start with something easier like AUS8. Mac Pro and Suisin Inox Western are some examples.

If you really want to spend more, maybe this Tanaka ginsan which has better food release.








Tanaka Ginsan (Silver 3, 銀三) Nashiji Gyuto 210 / 240 mm Lite


The famous Tanaka Ginsanko Nashiji line, co-developed between Tanaka and Knives and Stones, emphasizing on the pure cutting performance. Tanaka Ginsan Lite: standard Tanaka knife, factory blade with K&S new budget handles, choil and spine are ex-factory (spine no rounding, choil eased), but the...



knivesandstones.us


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## DavidPF (Jan 6, 2021)

Bean said:


> My cutting board is made of wood (teak). I don't intend to cut hard objects.


A teak board unfortunately *is* a hard object. Cutting board tests show several other woods being all relatively OK for knives, but teak damaging the blade much faster. Bamboo is also bad.

The test was using knives that were the standard relatively soft steel in European-style knives, but still, I expect you have a few of those. I know that Japanese-style knives use harder steel, but why have an extra thing to worry about.


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## KenHash (Jan 6, 2021)

inferno said:


> i would avoid anything in sg2/r2. its usually quite chippy out of the box, and its not exacly easy/fast to sharpen. its a specialist stainless steel.



It's funny how different people have different experiences. I have never had chipping on any of my SG2/R2 kitchen knives. I did have minor chipping on one of my Fallkniven SG2 outdoor knives. But I've seen far more chipping on VG10 and VG1 knives, both kitchen and outdoors. I also find SG2/R2 to be no more difficult to sharpen than VG10, and has has far greater edge retention. As a result I recommend SG2/R2 knives to my closest friends who seek better edge retention than what they presently have.


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## LostHighway (Jan 6, 2021)

The issue with Teak (_Trchtona grandis_) is not so much Janka hardness, it is only very slightly harder than North American Black Cherry and softer than Hard (aka Sugar) Maple, but that it can contain a fairly high percentage of silica which is abrasive to knife edges and other cutting tools..


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## Neofolis (Jan 6, 2021)

I'm no more experienced than the OP, so it's probably not my place to recommend anything, but when I asked about the different steels and was pointed towards various information, it seemed like generally the White steel (Shirogami) would be the easiest to sharpen, all other things being equal. Obviously all other things are not equal, so the heat treatment and tempering play a part in ease of sharpening and can affect carbide size.

Anyway, based on that, the first knife I ordered was a stainless clad shirogami with an HRC 61-62. As the knife hasn't arrived yet, I can't comment on whether or not I think that was the right decision, but the logic seems reasonably sound.


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## dafox (Jan 6, 2021)

Neofolis said:


> I'm no more experienced than the OP, so it's probably not my place to recommend anything, but when I asked about the different steels and was pointed towards various information, it seemed like generally the White steel (Shirogami) would be the easiest to sharpen, all other things being equal. Obviously all other things are not equal, so the heat treatment and tempering play a part in ease of sharpening and can affect carbide size.
> 
> Anyway, based on that, the first knife I ordered was a stainless clad shirogami with an HRC 61-62. As the knife hasn't arrived yet, I can't comment on whether or not I think that was the right decision, but the logic seems reasonably sound.


I would second that.


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## adam92 (Jan 7, 2021)

If you don't have enough experience with sharpening, maybe start with white steel is better as easier to sharpen.

My 1st gyuto is Vg10, deburr is little bit tricky but so far not to hard to sharpen.
Now I have experience with VG10,Blue 1,Blue 2.AS, SG2, White 1, White 2. 
SG2 sharpen a bit harder than others, But stainless is big relief when in line. for home cook maybe carbon is better, sharpen more easily.
I heard Kei Kobayashi SG2 F&F is superb, but haven't try yet, definitely gonna try in future.
I like Laser profile, my Ashi Ginga Swedish 210mm petty haven't arrive, only see positive feedback so must be good.
Now many bladesmiths do Carbon steel with stainless clad, might worth to try?

James from /
Koki Iwahara from / 
Jon from /
I buy many knife from Koki, he's best vendor I ever met, service is perfect, Shipping only cost 10 Usd.
I believe they can help you.


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## coffeelover191919 (Jan 7, 2021)

I'm not sure why the users here are going ahead and recommending knives when OP says he doesn't know how to sharpen a knife. Before i bought any knife over $150 USD, i learned to sharpen. 

Using a sharp Wusthof/Henkels/Victorinox is more pleasurable than any japanese knife that's lost its edge after 2 months of use. 

Sharpening a kitchen knife actually isn't that hard, as a kitchen knife doesn't require razor sharpness, mirror polish, slicing tissue paper, etc. It just needs to be sharp enough to cut food.

OP, consider buying a shapton 1k (also 2k, if budget allows) along with your new knife and practice while you use your new knife. Because you're going to need to sharpen it after a month or 2.


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## Neofolis (Jan 7, 2021)

When I did my first "which knife should I buy" thread, there was some conflicting views on this subject, but the general consensus was that, even someone completely new to sharpening, would be unlikely to cause serious damage to a knife and given the ease of sharpening a higher end knife, learning on a more expensive knife wasn't a bad idea, because any minor damage/scratches caused, could be corrected with gains in experience/ability.


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## JASinIL2006 (Jan 7, 2021)

Sometimes, buying a really nice knife or two, and having to send them out to be sharpened, is a good inducement to learn how to sharpen. I don't know many people who started collecting nice knives because they wanted to learn how to sharpen.


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## ref (Jan 7, 2021)

Bean said:


> *For gyuto : all the main tasks related to meat.
> For Nakiri : all the main tasks related to to vegetables.*



FYI, nakiris are in general not better suited to vegetables compared to a gyuto. A gyuto can do _more _than a nakiri (it has a tip) so getting both of them is a bit redundant unless you just want to have one for the sake of it. But it doesn't make sense to keep the gyuto for meats and nakiri for vegetables.

And you will probably not want to use either to break down a chicken. A 20euro 15cm victorinox fibrox/modern will do that job better, easier, safer and cheaper.


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## tostadas (Jan 7, 2021)

For people who I know that do not sharpen on their own, and give me their knives every few months, I would recommend on the cheaper side something like a Misono moly or Mac pro. Both offer decent durability and performance for relatively low price. White 2, while it gets a little sharper, I find loses it's edge more quickly.


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## inferno (Jan 7, 2021)

there is also this device to sharpen with. its very good. anyone can use it.
guess how it works.


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## Neofolis (Jan 7, 2021)

Magic?


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## JoBone (Jan 7, 2021)

There are some good HAP40 knives out of Seki that would be a great fit - they are sold by a few different name like kohetsu and Hatsukokoro. They are moderately priced and HAP40 is a great stainless that sharpens really nice. You can pick up one of those and a combo stone for less than $300.

I highly recommend a Nakiri, personally I use mine as much as my gyutos.


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## Neofolis (Jan 7, 2021)

There definitely seems to be a Gyuto crowd and a Nakiri crowd, not to mention the Cleaver fans, etc. Obviously personal preference dictates everything, but those preferences are likely to be influenced to some extent by technique and the foods/cuisine a person works with most often. The only way to know for sure what your preferences are is to try everything.


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## rmrf (Jan 7, 2021)

I'm confused what you mean by plastic deformation. I suspect the differences in steel aren't large enough that one type of steel will undergo plastic deformation and another will not. I would guess that all knives go through plastic deformation when sharpening.... 
I'm in the camp that you should get a reasonable knife and reasonable stones to learn how to sharpen. I sharpened for years on crappy stones and knives and I picked up a lot of bad habits. Watching videos and reading about how to sharpen doesn't help a lot when sharpening soft stainless steel on bricks.

I recommend getting a stone <$100 and a stainless clad carbon knife. My first non-cheap knife was a kaeru white 2 from JNS. My first month with the kaeru and and a king 1000/5000 taught me more about sharpening than 2 years with my crappy stainless knives and some random course stone but YMMV.


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## Bean (Jan 8, 2021)

Thank you for your answers.

Concerning the teak cutting board, this thread is interesting. I could do the same as the OP if the change allows for greater sustainability.

I don't think that having a cheap knife would be good, because I want to have a knife that lasts several years. I would like to be able to change it because I want to and not because it is unusable. Also, I think I would be much less careful. I can train very well on knives I already have.

I would take a gyuto for push-cut and the nakiri for chop.
In addition, I would like to have two to avoid bacterial contamination.

@rmrf : between steels there can be big differences (e.g. martensite vs ferrite + perlite). Between steels for knives, the difference in theory is much smaller, but I don't know if in practice there are differences. What I mean concretely is that I don't want to get a bread knife after several years because the elasticity of the steel was not good.

I found this in my research :




Of course factors other than the type of steel can influence the final characteristics, but do you generally agree?
So a carbon knife coated with stainless steel seems to be a good option. 

Now the negative point is stains and rust. What care should be taken?
For example, @Benuser offers me JCK Natures Deep Impact Series Gyuto. I find it pretty and the comments are excellent. Some people talk about a bit of rust and stains. Probably because they didn't take enough care of it. 
In the end, what does the patina look like?


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## Towerguy (Jan 8, 2021)

KenHash said:


> It's funny how different people have different experiences. I have never had chipping on any of my SG2/R2 kitchen knives. I did have minor chipping on one of my Fallkniven SG2 outdoor knives. But I've seen far more chipping on VG10 and VG1 knives, both kitchen and outdoors. I also find SG2/R2 to be no more difficult to sharpen than VG10, and has has far greater edge retention. As a result I recommend SG2/R2 knives to my closest friends who seek better edge retention than what they presently have.


I have had the same experience, no chipping on SG2/R2 and relatively easy to sharpen.


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## inferno (Jan 8, 2021)

Bean said:


> Thank you for your answers.
> 
> Concerning the teak cutting board, this thread is interesting. I could do the same as the OP if the change allows for greater sustainability.
> 
> ...



i guess the edge retention would be something like this:

white 1/2 - 0
blue 1/2 - 1,5
blue super - 2

vg1/aus8/aus10/gin3 - 3
vg10 - 3-4
r2/zdp - 4-5

also the wusthof/vic/henckels use pretty much the same steel. there will be almost 0 difference between these. these are 1-2 i'd say.
its all 0,5-0,6%C low alloyed ss. its all the same crap.


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## Ben.G. (Jan 8, 2021)

I feel like I should make a few points to prevent misinformation.


Bean said:


> I don't think that having a cheap knife would be good, because I want to have a knife that lasts several years. I would like to be able to change it because I want to and not because it is unusable.
> 
> I would take a gyuto for push-cut and the nakiri for chop.
> In addition, I would like to have two to avoid bacterial contamination.



Any knife can last many years. All knives become dull eventually and need to be sharpened and maintained.

There is nothing wrong with having several knives, but you should understand the reasons. A gyuto can do anything that a nakiri can do, including push-cut and chop.

Bacterial contamination is not a reason to have multiple knives. You should always be cleaning your knife and cutting board immediately after using it on high risk foods. There should never be bacteria left on surfaces for longer than necessary or you risk the possibility of cross-contamination. If you don’t clean your knife and hands right away, the bacteria can be spread to other surfaces and it won’t matter how many knives you have. After cleaning with soap and water, it is perfectly safe to cut other foods with the same knife.


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## RockyBasel (Jan 8, 2021)

I would recommend a stainless or a stainless clad knife for you - since ease of care is important 

I would also suggest that you can get incredible performance-price ratios, if you are not going for a “hyped” knife on this forum

At the top of your price range, I would recommend a Heiji - world-class knife - you can get a 210 or 225 custom made close to your upper limit

Ginsan knives tend to be more expensive, but depending on the handle, you maybe able to squeeze in a Kagekiyo Ginsan 210 

Kaeru 240 mm Stainless SKD Gyuto would be the value knife - about 200, and I got a huge order of them from Maksim, it looks gorgeous, performs really well, built well. 

If you don’t mind a white steel which requires more care, I would recommend Munetoshi and the new WH Kaeru which at 240 gm and hardened white steel looks very interesting and can handle tougher tasks and take a beating


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## Benuser (Jan 8, 2021)

Bean said:


> Thank you for your answers.
> 
> Concerning the teak cutting board, this thread is interesting. I could do the same as the OP if the change allows for greater sustainability.
> 
> ...


Once a patina got installed it doesn't require any other care than with other knives. Don't leave it dirty overnight — or the edge will dull. Aogami Super isn't very reactive. It will take some very heavy abuse to have it rust. Have seen a knife that was put away dirty for half a year. There were a few superficial rust spots on the lamination line I got away with a simple sharpening.


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## mcwcdn (Jan 9, 2021)

I have a few stainless Gyutos. My favourite is the Kaeru Stainless from Japanese Natural Stones. It is surprisingly reasonable and the fit and finish is great. If this is your entry into the Japanese Knife world I would suggest the Kaeru. It cuts extremely well, sharpens well and has a wonderful profile. 









Kaeru Kasumi Stainless Gyuto 210mm


Selected Japanese natural sharpening stones Toishi, Handmade by Best Blade smiths Japanese Knives, Razors and Tools




www.japanesenaturalstones.com


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## Michi (Jan 9, 2021)

I second the Kaeru. (It's SLD, as far as I know, not SKD?)

Good shape and grind, not too thin, easy to sharpen, stainless, and excellent value for money. Perfect entry-level knife.


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## RockyBasel (Jan 9, 2021)

Michi said:


> I second the Kaeru. (It's SLD, as far as I know, not SKD?)
> 
> Good shape and grind, not too thin, easy to sharpen, stainless, and excellent value for money. Perfect entry-level knife.



Yes SLD - correct. The ones I just got you have described precisely - not too thin, spine with some heft, perfect profile - really sharp. It looks fabulous feels great in the hand. At 185 gm, it’s a good weight

I am tempted to try the iron clad WH Gyuto by them - 240 gm. Sounds very interesting


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## DavidPF (Jan 9, 2021)

Bean said:


> I found this in my research :


Whose table is that? How did they come up with it? Just showing it by itself as if it's meaningful that way, doesn't help as much as showing why. (Many rankings of knives and rankings of steels are just subjective garbage with no data and no evidence, including websites where people rank knives they've never tried and steels they've never seen.)

Newbies like me really love rankings, so people who want their website to gain popularity will throw together a ranking chart just to attract clicks.


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## RockyBasel (Jan 9, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Whose table is that? How did they come up with it? Just showing it by itself as if it's meaningful that way, doesn't help as much as showing why. (Many rankings of knives and rankings of steels are just subjective garbage with no data and no evidence, including websites where people rank knives they've never tried and steels they've never seen.)
> 
> Newbies like me really love rankings, so people who want their website to gain popularity will throw together a ranking chart just to attract clicks.



I also heard that regardless of steel, it’s the actual heat treatment of the blade-smith that gets the virtues out of the steel - not sure how that figures in this table


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## mcwcdn (Jan 9, 2021)

RockyBasel said:


> Yes SLD - correct. The ones I just got you have described precisely - not too thin, spine with some heft, perfect profile - really sharp. It looks fabulous feels great in the hand. At 185 gm, it’s a good weight
> 
> I am tempted to try the iron clad WH Gyuto by them - 240 gm. Sounds very interesting




I am in the same boat as you on wanting to try the Kaeru WH. Looks to have some great specs.


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## Benuser (Jan 9, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Once a patina got installed it doesn't require any other care than with other knives. Don't leave it dirty overnight — or the edge will dull. Aogami Super isn't very reactive. It will take some very heavy abuse to have it rust. Have seen a knife that was put away dirty for half a year. There were a few superficial rust spots on the lamination line I got away with a simple sharpening.
> View attachment 109247


Just saw this very nice picture by @ModRQC of the JCK Nature Deep Impact AS. I guess he will forgive me.


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## DavidPF (Jan 9, 2021)

RockyBasel said:


> I also heard that regardless of steel, it’s the actual heat treatment of the blade-smith that gets the virtues out of the steel - not sure how that figures in this table


...and some steels are tricky to harden well, while others are not as difficult.


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## ModRQC (Jan 10, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Just saw this very nice picture by @ModRQC of the JCK Nature Deep Impact AS. I guess he will forgive me.
> View attachment 109394



Sure, @Benuser has got special copyrights over any of those two or my former Misono, but especially the Masahiro which he basically voodooed me into buying.


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## ModRQC (Jan 10, 2021)

Haha it's especially funny now that I've read the bits about the teak board. In mine picture the board underneath those two fine knives is teak. I've been using it quite a lot, without any special treatment but to oil and wax it, and without noticing it being any more adverse to my knives than any other good board - not just those two knives, but a lot of different steels. Not going against the theory of silicate content being detrimental to the edge. Will just use another bout of theory to tell you: if going there buy end grain teak. It's fine. Just don't pay for it what can buy you a better choice of wood. This sample here is dirt cheap on Amazon. Must be ready to give it some work though.


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## DavidPF (Jan 10, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Haha it's especially funny now that I've read the bits about the teak board. In mine picture the board underneath those two fine knives is teak. I've been using it quite a lot, without any special treatment but to oil and wax it, and without noticing it being any more adverse to my knives than any other good board - not just those two knives, but a lot of different steels. Not going against the theory of silicate content being detrimental to the edge. Will just use another bout of theory to tell you: if going there buy end grain teak. It's fine. Just don't pay for it what can buy you a better choice of wood. This sample here is dirt cheap on Amazon. Must be ready to give it some work though.


It probably also depends on the ways people use their knives - I'm clumsy and my knife makes more contact with the board than it needs to. Some of you guys with more practice and more skill can probably use concrete.


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## M1k3 (Jan 10, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> It probably also depends on the ways people use their knives - I'm clumsy and my knife makes more contact with the board than it needs to. Some of you guys with more practice and more skill can probably use concrete.


I can't. Knife edge on concrete is like nails scratching a chalkboard for me.


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## spaceconvoy (Jan 10, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> I'm clumsy and my knife makes more contact with the board than it needs to.


wat? Is everyone else a master of air-cutting while I'm here stupidly pressing my knife against the cutting board? Why didn't y'all tell me


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## M1k3 (Jan 10, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> wat? Is everyone else a master of air-cutting while I'm here stupidly pressing my knife against the cutting board? Why didn't y'all tell me


You don't cut everything like you're playing Fruit Ninja?


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## Michi (Jan 10, 2021)

I just sharpen my knives to the point where the produce splits apart before the knife actually touches it. That's what fear can do. And I get good edge retention that way…


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## Eloh (Jan 10, 2021)

For low maintainance I would recommend a softer steel plus a dick micro.
If you wouldnt have said Japanese I would probably recommend a herder 1922.

The higher alloyed steels with high edge retention only make sense if you are already really good at sharpening or at least plan on becoming really good imo.

I think it would make sense to get a herder 1922 and a nice Japanese nakiri, maybe a wakui or watanabe pro. That way you can learn more about what you appreciate. Add a dick micro and a naniwa Pro 1000 and you are good to go for the start. (And also get a herder parer )


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## DavidPF (Jan 10, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> wat? Is everyone else a master of air-cutting while I'm here stupidly pressing my knife against the cutting board? Why didn't y'all tell me


Some people, when you tell them "Don't mash the knife into the board so hard like that, it wastes time and energy and isn't good for the knife", they listen and they realize it's true so they lighten up a bit on their follow-through. Other people, like me, don't do so well on that. Whether it's because I'm used to a warped board or knives that might not cut, or whether I'm just clumsy and not trying hard enough, I can't say.


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## DavidPF (Jan 10, 2021)

Eloh said:


> a softer steel plus a dick micro.


Can you recommend a good set of instructions (written, or pictures, or video) for how to use that properly? I remember watching my father, but I don't remember how he did it, and I don't think he was good at it. And I suspect there's a lot of video out there of others who don't know how to do it but who think they do...


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## JaVa (Jan 10, 2021)

Sounds to me like someone is on the hunt for a classic Tanaka ginsan nashiji gyuto from Knives & Stones. Easy to get sharp, keeps sharp for a good while, stainless so easy maintenance, Blade heavy balance, mid weight knife with decent food release with over all great performance and a ruggedly handsome fellow to boot. K&S will sharpen it for you if requested. 

One more vote for the Kaeru SS. It hits the mark too, but the semiSS core will patina slowly over time. Easy fix though. If your ok with that it has some of the best price to performance ratio around.


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## jacko9 (Jan 10, 2021)

Bean said:


> Thank you for the website!
> I found some gyuto :
> - Ashi Hamono Shirogami
> - Konosuke GS / GS+ (blade too thin?)
> ...


Yes I think the Konosuke GS is too thin. I have a Konosuke; GS, HD2, Fujiyama knives and while it holds a nice edge the GS is really light and thin. All of the other Konosuke knives are excellent.


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## toddnmd (Jan 11, 2021)

JaVa said:


> Sounds to me like someone is on the hunt for a classic Tanaka ginsan nashiji gyuto from Knives & Stones. Easy to get sharp, keeps sharp for a good while, stainless so easy maintenance, Blade heavy balance, mid weight knife with decent food release with over all great performance and a ruggedly handsome fellow to boot. K&S will sharpen it for you if requested.



Love my Tanaka Ginsan from KNS! Excellent knife, period. Amazing value. Definite keeper for me.


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## Eloh (Jan 11, 2021)

The Ginsan I had was very nice but super thin at the edge, I'm not sure I would recommend that to someone who wants a more 'carefree knife'


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## Eloh (Jan 11, 2021)

DavidPF said:


> Can you recommend a good set of instructions (written, or pictures, or video) for how to use that properly? I remember watching my father, but I don't remember how he did it, and I don't think he was good at it. And I suspect there's a lot of video out there of others who don't know how to do it but who think they do...



I don't have a good video at hand, but its not that complicated. You strop the knife with edge leading strokes from heel to tip on the steel with an angle slightly higher than the sharpening angle. The more inexperienced you are and/or the harder the steel of the blade, the slower you should go.
Also its most efficient with softer steels


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## Benuser (Jan 11, 2021)

Eloh said:


> I don't have a good video at hand, but its not that complicated. You strop the knife with edge leading strokes from heel to tip on the steel with an angle slightly higher than the sharpening angle. The more inexperienced you are and/or the harder the steel of the blade, the slower you should go.
> Also its most efficient with softer steels


Apply a very, very light touch. And be aware that the Dick Micro doesn't abrade fatigued steel — nor does it cause steel fatigue in the same way as coarser rods do, by the way. At some moment you will still have to go to the stones and remove the fatigued steel, probably starting with a coarser stone than you would use for normal maintenance.


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## Eloh (Jan 11, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Apply a very, very light touch. And be aware that the Dick Micro doesn't abrade fatigued steel — nor does it cause steel fatigue in the same way as coarser rods do, by the way. At some moment you will still have to go to the stones and remove the fatigued steel, probably starting with a coarser stone than you would use for normal maintenance.


Thx for the addition.


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## Jovidah (Jan 11, 2021)

What are you planning to do with it that makes you ask for something 'durable'?


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## Bean (Jan 11, 2021)

Jovidah said:


> What are you planning to do with it that makes you ask for something 'durable'?



Normal use. So not a knife that rusts easily or is brittle.

So to summarize, here are your proposals:

JCK Natures Deep Impact Series: semi-stainless / steel: Aogami Super (Blue Super) / HRC: 64-65 / weight: 182 g / 180 USD (sold out)
Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji : semi-stainless / steel: Ginsan core with stainless clad / HRC: 60-61 / weight: 174 g / 199 USD (sold out)
Kagekiyo Ginsan : semi-stainless / steel: Ginsan (Silver 3) stainless steel and cladded in stainless steel / HRC : ? / weight: 138 g / 350 USD (sold out)
Kagekiyo Ginsan : stainless / steel: ? / HRC : ? / weight: 134 g / 355 USD (sold out)
Kaeru Kasumi Stainless: stainless / steel: Hitachi SLD clad with softer stainless / HRC: ? / weight: 155 g / 200 USD
Kaeru Kasumi Workhorse : non-stainless / steel: White 2 steel with Iron Cladding / HRC: ? / weight: 206 g / 370 USD (sold out)
Munetoshi Kurouchi : non-stainless / steel: White Steel / HRC: ? / weight: 185 g / 250 USD
Gesshin Heiji : semi-stainless / steel: ? / HRC: ? / weight: 194 g / 350 USD (sold out)
You seem to recommend to me the Kaeru Kasumi Stainless. Moreover it's one of the only ones in the list to be available at the moment.
So I'm thinking of choosing it. 
Anyone think I can make a better choice? For a knife on the list or not.


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## tostadas (Jan 11, 2021)

Bean said:


> Normal use. So not a knife that rusts easily or is brittle.
> 
> So to summarize, here are your proposals:
> 
> ...



fyi, the tanaka ginsan is available at the main AU site








Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji Gyuto 210mm Ebony handle


Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji Gyuto




www.knivesandstones.com.au


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## Bean (Jan 11, 2021)

Thx, good to know.


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## Michi (Jan 11, 2021)

I’m pretty sure you would be happy with the Kaeru. It’s a good knife.


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## M1k3 (Jan 11, 2021)

Bean said:


> Normal use. So not a knife that rusts easily or is brittle.
> 
> So to summarize, here are your proposals:
> 
> ...


Just get the Kaeru. You can always buy something else and sell the Kaeru if you're not a fan.


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## Bean (Jan 13, 2021)

OK and which stone to choose?


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## jbou (Jan 13, 2021)

You can consider either a combo stone 1000/4000, or you can have a look at the Cerax 1000 which has good feedbacks and a good price. Bester 1200 is also often discussed.
Then (or now) you can buy a highest grit stone as a complement (3000 to 5000) like the Rika 5000 for exemple.


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## damiano (Jan 13, 2021)

Bean said:


> OK and which stone to choose?


If you get a knife from JNS, why not buy a stone there?

FWIW I have a Munetoshi petty from JNS and it’s very good and quite practical in real life for a home cook. I’m considering getting the 210 gyuto at some point. Haven’t tried the Kaeru ss.


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## Bean (Jan 13, 2021)

There could be this stone at JNS if 8000 is not too thin : JNS combo 1000/8000 Matukusuyama


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## GBT-Splint (Jan 13, 2021)

Bean said:


> There could be this stone at JNS if 8000 is not too thin : JNS combo 1000/8000 Matukusuyama



I didn't tried that particular stone but if it's the only stone you are going to have then 8000 is too high a grit. 
(I find that 1000/8000 is a very weird double stone and don't quite understand it to be fair)

I would suggest (if you want to get everything from JNS) that you buy the JNS 1000 and JNS red aoto.
They are great stones (some would argue that the red aoto is best for single or wide bevel but I use it with pleasure with my double bevel knives)


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## JaVa (Jan 13, 2021)

I wouldn't call Tanaka ginsan semiSS. It's full on SS. So no patina tendencies. It weighs pretty close to 200g. Give or take a couple g,

And some one mentioned thin behind the edge and oh yes, it is and that's where the magic happens. Mine gets a thorough workout in a pro kitchen all the time with no issues. I don't baby it, but don't abuse it either. 

The Kaeru is semiSS and is lighter of the two. It is less blade heavy too. It has a very nice convex grind and contrary to what JNS site states it's not wide bevel. 

The Tanaka ginsan nashiji is noticeably heavier (but still a middle weight) and is also more blade heavy. It has a wide bevel with a slight hollow grind and like already mentioned is exceptionally thin behind the edge.

Cutting performance is great on both. 
So the sleeker looking and lighter Kaeru or the more rugged looking and heavier Tanaka? 
Personally I love both. And you really can't go wrong with either. Hope that helps?


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## Eloh (Jan 13, 2021)

Good summary by Jova. I was just trying to give a warning earlier, since I had the impression op didn't want something too delicate. With a little care the Tanaka is awesome. Imo.



This is the best bang for buck combo stone imo and all you really need









Kombischleifstein #1000/4000


Körnung 1000/4000



www.japan-messer-shop.de





(I believe imanishi made ceramic)


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## Bean (Jan 14, 2021)

JaVa said:


> I wouldn't call Tanaka ginsan semiSS. It's full on SS. So no patina tendencies. It weighs pretty close to 200g. Give or take a couple g,
> 
> And some one mentioned thin behind the edge and oh yes, it is and that's where the magic happens. Mine gets a thorough workout in a pro kitchen all the time with no issues. I don't baby it, but don't abuse it either.
> 
> ...



This helps, thank you!

Indeed, both steels must be resistant to oxidation: 

Hitachi SLD : 

*Carbon (C)**Chromium (Cr) **Molybdenum (Mo)**Vanadium (V)*1.6%13%1.2%0.5%

Gin3 :

*Carbon (C)**Chromium (Cr) **Molybdenum (Mo)**Vanadium (V)*1.03%13.75%--



Eloh said:


> Good summary by Jova. I was just trying to give a warning earlier, since I had the impression op didn't want something too delicate. With a little care the Tanaka is awesome. Imo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seeing the price I guess the quality is not so good. But I guess I won't see the difference and the combo stone is more practical.


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## Eloh (Jan 15, 2021)

It's pretty highly regarded actually... Some might prefer different stones, but that's highly subjective anyway. Most people who know their stuff would say it's a very good stone, especially for the money. 
If money wasn't of any concern I would probably recommend a naniwa Pro progression (1000 and 3000) but they won't make your knives sharper either, especially if you haven't extensive sharpening experience...


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## inferno (Jan 15, 2021)

Bean said:


> This helps, thank you!
> 
> Indeed, both steels must be resistant to oxidation:
> 
> ...



you can look up the actual compositions here from the manufacturer.


YASUGI SPECIALTY STEEL | Products | Materials for tools and cutlery Searching for | SLD




YASUGI SPECIALTY STEEL | Products | Materials for tools and cutlery Searching for | GIN 3



sld is hitachis tight tolerance "middle of the road %" version aisi d2. 
its not stainless, so it will discolor and rust if you neglect it. it just takes a longer time. but so will most "real" stainless steels too.

zknives says this about gin3: _It is a AEB-H/19c27 clone like VG-1 and MBS26, so it is also similar to what is found in the Suisin Inox Honyaki knives._

so any of those could be worth looking into too.

one thing i have noticed is that you can get gin3 as a monosteel blade with no cladding, but sld/skd11 usually comes clad in stainless or something else. i can't remember seeing any skd11/sld monos ever.


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## Bean (Jan 20, 2021)

Thank you all. I think I have everything I need to make my choice.


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## JaVa (Jan 20, 2021)

Bean said:


> Thank you all. I think I have everything I need to make my choice.


Keep us in the loop. We'd love to see what you ended up with.


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## Bean (Mar 20, 2021)

Here it's! Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji 210 mm. It's infinitely better than any knife I've ever had. I love it!
Thank you all for directing me to this beautiful knife!


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