# Espresso Machine / Home



## MontezumaBoy (Dec 16, 2017)

Tired of the crap, cost & BS at Starbucks/CoffeeBean/Etc. (sorry SD doesn't have much in the way of espresso/coffee) so looking to just make it at home ... Primarily drink espresso & espresso based drinks (i.e. Latte & Cappuccino) 

Thinking semi-automatic but TBD and don't mind refurbished. To some extent counter space isn't a big issue but certainly a consideration. 

Also don't know if this is a sort of Baby steps or All in down the rabbit hole kinda thing? Budget is negotiable but was hoping (naively probably) to keep things less than $3K.

Any help would be appreciated - or just tell me to go to "cafeespressomachinesforums.com" if that is the best option, just not sure I need another forum to listen to the state of sexual harassment amongst the barista's .... 

TjA


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## khashy (Dec 16, 2017)

That's a very decent budget for a home setup. Just remember that the grinder is as important as the actual coffee machine if not more. 

Don't cheap out on the grinder, if there is a compromise to be made, compromise on the coffee machine rather than the grinder.

I'll refrain from recommending specific gear as I'm sure there are better qualified people here.

Also the guys over at home-barista forums are super helpful. Coffee forums uk also has a bunch of great guys and advice, as does coffeegeek!


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## Anton (Dec 16, 2017)

There is a forum for that.. This is certainly another rabbit hole... 
but with 3k youll step into it quite well, and dont need refurbished 

There is a learning curve and i enjoyed starting at a mid level and graduating to something better noticing differences

Look into profitec and ECM technika for machines 

The grinder is just as important, look into mazzer or Baratza

Im semi automated purist 

I could tell you more but youll miss part of the fun and learning


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## Lars (Dec 16, 2017)

Rabbit hole for sure.. 

Spend money on the grinder is really the best advise you will get.

Water makes a big difference as well.

Enjoy the journey.

Lars


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## Bill13 (Dec 16, 2017)

I just do drip but have hd this grinder for about 8 years and love it. https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/r...98gkPM60Q2W_hlZyLcjbJxBoCTagQAvD_BwE#1093=806


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## WildBoar (Dec 16, 2017)

Pick up a used Mazzer Super Jolly grinder or relabeled variant; you can typically find them on CL or eBay for <$500, and just change out the burrs (~$50). That leaves you almost $2,500, which is at the bottom edge of the double boiler machine price range; DB machines are great is you steam a lot of milk (I often make 2-3 cappuccinos at a time). Definitely do-able for your budget if you go used for the machine, but you may want to add a few hundred $ more to the budget to swing a new one. Chris's Coffee is a great place to look for new machines.

A lot of people start with Rancilios, etc., and wind up upgrading or modifying after a year or two. IMO Save yourself from having to go through multiple machines by biting the bullet and getting the first and last machine you will ever need.

At a minimum filter the tap water, and get good beans. The beans will be your ongoing cost. Buy the beans in 5 lb bags if you can (saves money), and bag/ freeze them. I vacuum seal and freeze. I pull one bag out at a time; it is usually enough for a week. You will notice a degradation as the week progressed, which leads to a slight tightening of the grind every few days. That is why a grinder intended for espresso is critical. And a stepless grinder is a lot more useful then a stepped one.

Home-Barista.com has a ton of good info, although I rarely go there anymore because I have a functional setup and do not need to read about new equipment. But it is indispensable when planning an initial setup and learning how to grind and pull shots.


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## WildBoar (Dec 16, 2017)

Here are Chris' Coffee's double-boiler machines. It has been a while since I have looked; there are quite a few under $2,500 these days:

https://www.chriscoffee.com/dual-bo...tm?searching=Y&sort=1&cat=2674&show=36&page=1


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## Valkyrae (Dec 16, 2017)

It's crazy to think how many things out there are just as much of a rabbit hole as knives or natural stones..

This would definitely be a fun one to get in to- looking at some of the machines out there, it seems like it would be a fun process.


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## WildBoar (Dec 16, 2017)

The nice thing is that it pays for itself (or at least a large chunk of the costs) over time. You can spend close to $5 USD for a cappuccino, so around $1,200/ year(!) if you get one every day at work. The actual cost if you DIY at home is <$2/ day for the beans and milk. So you save >$500/ yr plus you get better coffee. You will break even in 5 or so years, and even sooner if you make at least 2 per day.


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## Mute-on (Dec 16, 2017)

A commercial conical burr grinder lifted my espresso to the next level on my 16 year old Cimbali M21 Junior. 
Something like a Mazzer Kony or Compak K10 (my choice, second hand). 

Go full manual for low volume and control. The modern double boiler machine provide precise brew temperature control, which you will find very useful, particularly with the lighter roast espresso blends common these days, requiring lower brew temps. A 350ml brew boiler and 1.5l steam boiler will make coffee all day as fast as you can. 

Enjoy!!!

J


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## Dave Martell (Dec 16, 2017)

3k!?! And here I thought I was nuts using an Aeropress


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## Marek07 (Dec 16, 2017)

Nothing wrong with discussing coffee making again - always informative. There was a thread nearly a year ago that might be worth reading: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/30722-Home-espresso-machines

Definitely agree on decent grinders making a difference but just as with knives, there are many factors that culminate in a satisfying coffee: beans (origin & variety), roast, freshness, bean storage, grind, dose, tamping, espresso machine, technique, temperature, water, maintenance (maker & grinder). Something I've been doing of late that one can easily do at home, is to send a short shot through the group head (filter) and waiting a few minutes before finishing. Not for everybody as it does increase the caffeine levels somewhat, but I find it produces a more rounded flavour from the same quantity of beans.


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## MontezumaBoy (Dec 18, 2017)

Dave Martell said:


> 3k!?! And here I thought I was nuts using an Aeropress



Thanks to all my enablers (except you Mr. Martell - you just had to go and try to point out the absurdity of it all / really - please look around at us ...)! Anyway I knew I could count on the rest of you to "help" - so off to find a nice dark & lovely rabbit hole to dive head first into looking for another distraction .... :coffeelots:


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## Valkyrae (Dec 18, 2017)

WildBoar said:


> The nice thing is that it pays for itself (or at least a large chunk of the costs) over time. You can spend close to $5 USD for a cappuccino, so around $1,200/ year(!) if you get one every day at work. The actual cost if you DIY at home is <$2/ day for the beans and milk. So you save >$500/ yr plus you get better coffee. You will break even in 5 or so years, and even sooner if you make at least 2 per day.



That's really cool to know. Not as much return on investment with knives :S


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## zitangy (Dec 18, 2017)

my buddy and i picked up a two group heads Conti Xeos from a closed down shop.. We struck a deal with seller where by both agreed to split the bill to have it accessed and if the repair cost is below 300, the deal is off.. I believe that that is the key so that we are not stuck with a real lemon. Paid no more that usd1200 with the grinder( italian brand) Todate we have made abt 3000 cups of coffee..

turned out to be ok.. had it serviced by agent, shown how to clean it up and change the silicon gasket twice ourselves so far over a year.. Yes managed to download the manual and sourced available parts on line.... NO problems so far...

As it was too big... needed a piped in water supply and single phase electricity supply though.... it ended up in stationed in my office.

Have fun Z


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## StonedEdge (Dec 19, 2017)

IMO in terms of regular, black coffee, what some call Americano, a $4k machine doesn't even come close to a $60 pour over set up in terms of everything: taste, aroma, particle size etc.

Now espresso is a totally different story. It is true tho that if used often it pays for itself.


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## WildBoar (Dec 19, 2017)

"Americano" makes no sense to me. Take espresso and dilute? No question that is a recipe for a crappy drink -- it is taking what should be a well-balance espresso shot and totally washing out all of it's good characteristics.

That is why there is still a place for regular coffee machines, and the cold-brew, vacuum brew, etc. equipment.


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## StonedEdge (Dec 19, 2017)

Also as others have stated don't drop much coin on a machine if you plan on buying crappy, old beans


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## LucasFur (Dec 19, 2017)

At home i use a moka pot. Love it, just so old school. 

Our Miele Coffee machine at work is at 35,000 (yes, Thirty Five Thousand) coffees though, its only 4 years old.


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## DDPslice (Dec 20, 2017)

I'll save you some time, if your a bad person get something cheap and is covered in plastic, that is easy to use. It will produce something you call espresso. If there are tastebuds left after the alcohol induced comas from dealing with "people" and what they call "working" and you need big boy drink to rise from the dead. Spend at LEAST 600-800 on a Mini jolly mazzer or you want to skip and play with the real deal EK43, just as good is K30 both those are made by Mahlkonig. Other grinders are good but those will outlive you and are quality. List in order of greatness EK43, jolly mini, K30. For a machine I'd say for automatic, either a Rocket, la Andreja for a semi  lever La Cremina, and the ultimate in hate yourself (the longest learning curve) but produces that sweet sweet nectar of the gods. La Pavoni


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## naifu (Dec 20, 2017)

I personally would (and did) start with Hario V60, Aeropress, a good grinder, and the best organic coffee available from a local roaster. You can go the espresso machine route, but I suggest that you first develop your coffee palate before diving into a fancy espresso machine. Also consider cold brew. Check the nutritional info on the amount of milk that goes into a latte or cap. Do you really want to consume this much milk daily?


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## tripleq (Dec 20, 2017)

The most important thing about any coffee maker is that you enjoy the coffee from it regardless of recommendations or reviews. A good specialty retailer should be willing to give you a demonstration and adjust the grinder for your favourite bean if desired. You don't necessarily have to spend a lot to get something you like. The only thing I recommend to people is to avoid a lot of plastic in the internals of an espresso machine. My machine is a simple, all brass pump system 15 BAR machine that has been running without issue for 14 years. For the 500$ I paid I've gotten my money's worth +++.


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## DDPslice (Dec 20, 2017)

Great advice but 500, 15 years ago pre coffee boom is not exactly a great correlation. Nowadays quality is still hard to come buy and buying say an old Cremina with the backing places that sell replacement parts and washers etc. maybe a good option too


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## tripleq (Dec 21, 2017)

You could still get a good machine like a Rancilio Silvia with a top-notch grinder for 1300$ or so. Similar but lesser known machines like the Mokita Super Combi can be had for about 1/2 that if you search around. Reports of both machines lasting in the 15 year range are not uncommon. Adjusting for coffee prices in what you might call the 'post boom' makes those machines an even better bargain than before. The prices of the machines haven't risen proportionately to a retail shot of coffee. If you want to save a bundle local classifieds are also a good option. Lots of people buy these machines only to figure it is easier, faster and less messy to go to Starbucks and sell them off practically new at big discounts.


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## Mute-on (Dec 21, 2017)

A Silvia with Rocky grinder was my first machine 18 years ago. I gave the Rocky to a friend a few years ago to use with his new Silvia. This combo still makes outstanding coffee


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 22, 2017)

Always felt most important thing about coffee is grinding beans fresh. Like bold coffee. Sometimes buy 100% Kona beans.

About 4 years ago someone on this forum posted the Camano ceramic burr hand crank coffee mill. It is cast iron with a Ball small glass jar. Premier 1 sells it. 85.00. Have been using it every day since I bought it long time ago. It is adjustable & is still producing a good grind. I like the little exercise it gives me.

Great with a French Press my sister gave me, but stopped using it because of cleaning. Years have used cone paper filter over my mug. Found with a slow drip coffee was better. Since I was doing this for two every morning + like to entertain friends decided to get a coffee maker.

After some research decided on the Cuisinart 800 pour over coffee maker. It got better reviews than some De Longhi, Technivon etc. It pre wets the grounds before brewing to let the flavor bloom. This is my first coffee maker except for a Mr. Coffee crap many decades ago. Happy with it and the ease of use. No more standing over the mug with a slow drip:coffeelots:


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## WildBoar (Dec 22, 2017)

^^ that is good advice for many types of coffee drinks, but not so much when it comes to espresso in my opinion. The grinder is key, and I think the OP will find using a manual a bit of a PITA, and it will not help him avoid multiple steps of upgrades. For pour-over, drip, etc. I agree it is a great way to go.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 22, 2017)

Yes I'm off topic for expresso, don't use milk in my brew. Just sharing how much I like the Hand grinder one of the great tips I have gotten from this forum.


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## StonedEdge (Dec 22, 2017)

Saltydog how is the Kona (blue mountain?) Coffee? The only roaster in my area that has any refuses to sell it as is, only sells it mixed into a blend, it's a crying shame! I asked why, the answer was that to sell those beans by the g or kg would be too expensive for most buyers....shame


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## tripleq (Dec 22, 2017)

SE, been a few years but I was gifted some that were ordered on Amazon. Could be worth a look.


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## Keith Sinclair (Dec 23, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Saltydog how is the Kona (blue mountain?) Coffee? The only roaster in my area that has any refuses to sell it as is, only sells it mixed into a blend, it's a crying shame! I asked why, the answer was that to sell those beans by the g or kg would be too expensive for most buyers....shame



Sometimes here 100% goes on sale that's when I buy it. Like the Kona 100% Private Reserve Black & Tan. Good balance of French Dark & American Light.

Kauai Blue Mountain pick up too on sale 100% dark roast.

As you know Costco sells Seattle Mountain French Roast and Starbucks Dark French Roast beans. These are bigger bags that make a quality brew with a burr grinder & good brew machine. One way to keep quality is to seal say 10oz packages of beans & freeze them. 

Of coarse if you can get beans fresh from the roaster that is best. I had a friend who helped advise small business owners. He had a small roaster coffee shop put the chimney so roasting bean smell would exit right on to the street.


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## DDPslice (Dec 26, 2017)

https://decentespresso.com/de1


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## Bensbites (Dec 27, 2017)

I am late to the party here. 

1) get a quality grinder. To save $$ Buy used and replace the burs immediately. 

2) I went down the espresso rabbit hole and came out the other side after hacks, mods ect. Now I prefer freshly roasted drop coffee. Having the time for an areopress is a guilty pleasure. 

3) Because I cant find the beans I like readily available, I started roasting. It doesnt take much extra time if you pair it with activities like cleaning the kitchen. Now I have access to freshly roasted beans (light to medium roast from central/South America with a sweeter profiler) for $7 a lbs rather than $20. Save money and get to nerd out, just like making wa handles.


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## filthy_dwarf (Dec 29, 2017)

my budget setup is Gaggia classic ( old model) with unpressurised basket and ascaso I2 grinder


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