# If I can't rock chop - why buy a gyuto over a santoku?



## Viggetorr (Aug 16, 2017)

So I've read several times that you generally shouldn't rock chop with really hard japanese knives, as it may cause chipping. If we accept that this is true, then why should I buy a gyuto as my main knife rather than a santoku (or a kiritsuke)? I always thought rock chopping was one of the main selling points of the curved profile of gyutos.

What are your thoughts?


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## dwalker (Aug 16, 2017)

If you like to rock and are experiencing chipping, add a microbevel. Done.


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## scott.livesey (Aug 16, 2017)

Viggetorr said:


> So I've read several times that you generally shouldn't rock chop with really hard japanese knives, as it may cause chipping. If we accept that this is true, then why should I buy a gyuto as my main knife rather than a santoku (or a kiritsuke)? I always thought rock chopping was one of the main selling points of the curved profile of gyutos. What are your thoughts?



goes back to what shape blade works the best for 'Your' style of cutting. I prefer the straight cutting edge found on a cleaver, nakiri, or some deba. my issue is not with rock chopping as much as the "Machine Gun" chop you see chef's do on cooking shows. a kitchen knife is an extension of your hand that cuts. a knife with properly shaped handle, low weight, and good balance should almost 'disappear' in your hand. I would invest in several less expensive blades of different shapes until you find the shape that best suits you. then invest the bucks.


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## K813zra (Aug 16, 2017)

Viggetorr said:


> So I've read several times that you generally shouldn't rock chop with really hard japanese knives, as it may cause chipping. If we accept that this is true, then why should I buy a gyuto as my main knife rather than a santoku (or a kiritsuke)? I always thought rock chopping was one of the main selling points of the curved profile of gyutos.
> 
> What are your thoughts?



Hum, that is very broad. Tons of gyutos have a snub nose tip that is low to the board and santoku like as it is. In this case, for me, the only advantage is length and what comes with it. What comes with it is often more flat but I have found many santoku knives to have a lot of usable flat as it is. I find Sanjo made knives to be like this. Santoku like profile, beefy and loads of usable vs dead flat. Sometimes more of a light curve throughout.

Now, you can go the direction of a French profile or thereabouts. You can down size from a typical gyuto and up size from a santoku and get something in the 180-200mm range. Something that is short, in height. Say a 180 that is 39-41mm tall and have yourself a not quite petty and not quite gyuto. I like such a thing as I can manage it in hand, trim silver skin and even break down fish and not feel like I am using an ax! 

Of course you have those who will tell you about all of the tip work you will miss out on with a gyuto as well. Sure, there are tons of reasons to go with a gyuto over a santoku. However, go with what you like. I use both small gyutos and santokus frequently.  I typically prefer my santoku for onions because they do not ride up over the spine and fall on the back side of my cutting surface. (Yes, that shows a lack of knife skills on my part. If I go fast enough with a short gyuto, this does not happen, but I like my fingers...)


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## Chef_ (Aug 16, 2017)

Rock chopping is for barbarians, thats why.


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## Chef_ (Aug 16, 2017)

If youre talking about gliding, where you keep the tip intact with the board while cutting, it should be fine with a gyuto, youre just not going to be able to get as high as a german profile knife would. Gyutos are technically designed more for push cutting, but you can still use the "tip fulcrum" technique , just keep in mind the higher HRC and the flatter profile.

As for "rock chopping", which i know they teach in culinary school still, where you have your left hand on the spine and youre chopping while rotating the knife back and forth on the board.. its just a piss poor technique , save it for your cheap beaters, and train yourself in push/ pull cutting when using japanese knives.


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## holdmyphone (Aug 16, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> If youre talking about gliding, where you keep the tip intact with the board while cutting, it should be fine with a gyuto, youre just not going to be able to get as high as a german profile knife would. Gyutos are technically designed more for push cutting, but you can still use the "tip fulcrum" technique , just keep in mind the higher HRC and the flatter profile.
> 
> As for "rock chopping", which i know they teach in culinary school still, where you have your left hand on the spine and youre chopping while rotating the knife back and forth on the board.. its just a piss poor technique , save it for your cheap beaters, and train yourself in push/ pull cutting when using japanese knives.



Have to agree with this. A fine tool requires fine handling, and rock chopping that is not! It will simply destroy your fine edge very quickly. Save the rock chopping for the Victorinox and Dexters that are found in professional kitchens everywhere. I always have a stainless Messermeister for the occasion that I need to hack something up, personally.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 16, 2017)

Rock-chopping is correct technique for corner-case situaions...eg maybe nuts and certain herb admixtures...but the answer to the OP's question is you have a knife for that type of work...just like all of your other specialty knives (boning, fishe, etc).

Just because your main knife doesn't work in 100% of situations doesn't mean the main knife is not designed correctly.

edit: The utility of the tip on the gyuto or chef knife vs santuku is IMHO a whole different discussion. 

I personally would recommend almost any other profile in 165-180 before the santuku. A small chef/gyuto, funayki, ko-deba, line knife, petty, suji+gyuto hybrid...whatever you want to call it...probably a k-tip...just because the acute-angle tip itself provides a utility lacking in a sheeps-foot type tip.

Others don't see it that way and prefer the tradeoffs of the santuku.


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## chinacats (Aug 16, 2017)

There's a good video of rock chopping by theory somewhere...believe it's in the mango salsa one but I could easily be wrong. Point is that there's nothing wrong with doing it with a high hardness knife...all about the technique. Pretty sure he's using a gyuto there. To the op, if you prefer a santoku there's no shame in that.


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## Chef_ (Aug 16, 2017)

chinacats said:


> There's a good video of rock chopping by theory somewhere...believe it's in the mango salsa one but I could easily be wrong. Point is that there's nothing wrong with doing it with a high hardness knife...all about the technique. Pretty sure he's using a gyuto there. To the op, if you prefer a santoku there's no shame in that.



Ehh, you could make salsa by smashing tomatoes with a crowbar , that doesnt make it the correct technique . There might be nothing "wrong" with rock chopping, but why continue to encourage bad technique?


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## brainsausage (Aug 16, 2017)

Rock chopping has its place. Just don't torque the edge while you're doing it. Which also takes a bit of technique I suppose. More to the point of the OP, J-knives aren't that fragile, but they also won't withstand the abuse that most of the heavily industrialized nations have ascribed to most tools. It's best to know your tool, know it's limitations, and apply it to the task best suited to its specs. The easily grasped handle doesn't necessarily dictate its use as a hammer.


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## Duckfat (Aug 17, 2017)

brainsausage said:


> Just don't torque the edge while you're doing it.



I think this is spot on. The issue seems to be that some want to rock chop and walk the knife across the board at the same time. Very easy to torque a thin edge like that. When I need to do something like this I usually reach for a cleaver. 

Dave


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## supersayan3 (Aug 17, 2017)

There are different profiles of both gyuto and santoku. 
If you have the chance, play with some.
Gyutos are very good for vertical cutting as well, and they are shorter, less friction. 
I work with two santokus, don't have so short gyuto, Ryusen Blazen and Hiromoto white Honyaki, very different profiles, I enjoy them both, the Blazen, even without touch up, can be sharp even after a month for most chefs 
Not to me, but I love sg2 and my Blazens anyway


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 17, 2017)

The problem is, most advantages of rock chopping (walking, positive separation) come from techniques that subtly do involve torqueing the knife


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## WOK-a-holic (Aug 17, 2017)

Have you tryed a Chinese style cleaver? almost instantly I was ADDICTED to chopping.
Then I ditched all my German/ French knives . haven't even looked back .

CARBON steel Chinese cleaver + WOOD chopping block, is all I need. 

If I had to switch, my ONLY other choice would be a SANTOKO
(and I would use just like cleaver)


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 17, 2017)

Funny thing is, WHEN I want to rock chop or powermince (blade held two handed, rocking or guillotining wildly) something, cleavers are just what I reach for


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## cheflivengood (Aug 17, 2017)

I don't understand some of these answers. If, for you, rock chopping garlic or herbs is more efficient then do it...I am sure you understand that you shouldn't rock chop an onion when asked to dice. If your knife is dull after rock chopping it's not good steel, and if it chips you are using too much force required to get the job done. Use your knives for what you need them for. I've split lobsters with takeda's when I needed to, but I didn't swing it like a meat cleaver. Well made gyutos are not delicate if you only use the force necessary to cut through the product and pull up before you crack into the board.


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## Duckfat (Aug 17, 2017)

chinacats said:


> There's a good video of rock chopping by theory somewhere...believe it's in the mango salsa one but I could easily be wrong.




This one? 
[video=youtube;K7LtTbxIlTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7LtTbxIlTE[/video]

For Rock Chopping ya definitely need a little Metallica! :viking:

Dave


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## chinacats (Aug 17, 2017)

Duckfat said:


> This one?
> [video=youtube;K7LtTbxIlTE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7LtTbxIlTE[/video]
> 
> For Rock Chopping ya definitely need a little Metallica! :viking:
> ...



Thanks Dave, I thought so but from watching it i Ii thinking about something else where he rocks a bunch of herbs. Still appreciate the link as it is one of my favorite theory vids...at least now I have a good excuse to go look through some of his other ones.


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## ThEoRy (Aug 18, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> Ehh, you could make salsa by smashing tomatoes with a crowbar , that doesnt make it the correct technique . There might be nothing "wrong" with rock chopping, but why continue to encourage bad technique?



There's a difference between bad technique and employing a technique badly. 

About the mango salsa vid. It's like 97% push cutting 2.5% slicing and .5% rocking. 

I'll look around my page but I think in the chiffonade vid I employ some proper rocking.


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## chiffonodd (Aug 18, 2017)

cheflivengood said:


> I don't understand some of these answers. If, for you, rock chopping garlic or herbs is more efficient then do it...I am sure you understand that you shouldn't rock chop an onion when asked to dice. If your knife is dull after rock chopping it's not good steel, and if it chips you are using too much force required to get the job done. Use your knives for what you need them for. I've split lobsters with takeda's when I needed to, but I didn't swing it like a meat cleaver. Well made gyutos are not delicate if you only use the force necessary to cut through the product and pull up before you crack into the board.



+1 I see nothing wrong with carefully "rock chopping" to finely mince garlic, herbs, etc. Just don't twist and mash the s#&$! out of the blade. If it chips, you're using too much pressure and torquing, and/or you've pushed the edge geometry of your knife beyond the performance capability of the alloy.


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## ThEoRy (Aug 18, 2017)

Proper rocking. Ain't nothing wrong with that. 

[video=youtube;WaMdLa1_BFw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaMdLa1_BFw[/video]


Even walking can be done without detriment. Then I'm just having a little fun Martin Yan style because eff you parsley. That's why.

[video=youtube;ki9KErH1oEY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki9KErH1oEY[/video]


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## TheCaptain (Aug 18, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> Even walking can be done without detriment. Then I'm just having a little fun Martin Yan style because eff you parsley



Quote of the day! [emoji5] 

Which knive was that?


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## Nemo (Aug 18, 2017)

TheCaptain said:


> Quote of the day! [emoji5]
> 
> Which knive was that?


Looks to be the Tanaka R2 ironwood. From memory, I think Rick has the laseresque version.


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## Duckfat (Aug 18, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> Even walking can be done without detriment.



Good Technique. The thing I've seen many do is use too much down force and then not lift the leading edge to to the tip as they walk across the board. Of Course most of that traces back to inexperience and a less than ideal edge. Can't even say how many times I've seen some one turn rocking into an all out assault on a cutting board.


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 18, 2017)

Rick's techniques are legit, but somehow I do all the cooking when he's around?


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## StonedEdge (Aug 18, 2017)

cheflivengood said:


> I don't understand some of these answers. If, for you, rock chopping garlic or herbs is more efficient then do it...I am sure you understand that you shouldn't rock chop an onion when asked to dice. If your knife is dull after rock chopping it's not good steel, and if it chips you are using too much force required to get the job done. Use your knives for what you need them for. I've split lobsters with takeda's when I needed to, but I didn't swing it like a meat cleaver. Well made gyutos are not delicate if you only use the force necessary to cut through the product and pull up before you crack into the board.


This x 100


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## HRC_64 (Aug 18, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> The problem is, most advantages of rock chopping (walking, positive separation) come from techniques that subtly do involve torqueing the knife



also...sometimes it helps "pull-things-together"

...for example the salsa example is classic 

pure cutting is not always the goal 

edit: although not in the vid above do you see the approach of combinatorial rock-chopping


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## ThEoRy (Aug 19, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Rick's techniques are legit, but somehow I do all the cooking when he's around?



Dude anytime you see me is my day off from cooking! Lol. And sometimes I break down whole salmon or snapper, I've brought chickens. I do stuff too.


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## malexthekid (Aug 19, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> Dude anytime you see me is my day off from cooking! Lol. And sometimes I break down whole salmon or snapper, I've brought chickens. I do stuff too.


Haha that sounds like my cooking... I do stuff


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 19, 2017)

ThEoRy said:


> Dude anytime you see me is my day off from cooking! Lol. And sometimes I break down whole salmon or snapper, I've brought chickens. I do stuff too.



LOL you know I'm only pulling your leg. Happy my cooking is sufficient for Chef


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## merlijny2k (Aug 19, 2017)

Damn that walking part at the very end is just..... no words. Baffled. Maybe in 100 years I could learn that.


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## Chef Doom (Aug 19, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> Rock chopping is for barbarians, thats why.


My thoughts exactly. It's almost as if the OP wants everyone to agree that rock chopping is the gold standard of all that is food preparation.


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## panda (Aug 20, 2017)

if you are of the snobby nonsense that rock chopping is inferior, i'm willing to bet you just suck at it that's why. the best technique is what ever the user is most comfortable and efficient with.


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## Chef Doom (Aug 20, 2017)

My comment had nothing to do with superior technique and was mostly referring to standards. Would you rock chop with a nikiri? Would you rock chop fresh strawberries? Ive seen Chinese chefs chop chicken and vegetables with a clever faster than any rock chopping with a chef knife. My comment was to imply that it is the knife that drives the technique to be utilised unless you simply like to experiment for the fun of it.


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## panda (Aug 20, 2017)

ok, i agree with that. i adapt my technique to what the profile of the knife im currently using is most conducive to.


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## Chef_ (Aug 21, 2017)

panda said:


> if you are of the snobby nonsense that rock chopping is inferior, i'm willing to bet you just suck at it that's why. the best technique is what ever the user is most comfortable and efficient with.




by rock chopping, i mean walking the knife across the board while doing an up and down motion. Unless youre making a rough pistu or herbs for marinade, theres no real use for it. If youre chopping fine herbs with that method, your just going to end up with a black mess on your cutting board. In fine dining kitchens, we chiffonade our herbs.


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## panda (Aug 21, 2017)

thats what rock chopping is? i thought it was just the motion of following curvature of blade from tip to heel and repeat, like a slice.


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## malexthekid (Aug 21, 2017)

panda said:


> thats what rock chopping is? i thought it was just the motion of following curvature of blade from tip to heel and repeat, like a slice.


I define what you are talking about as rock chopping and the other as walking.

Both have a place.

Personally I rock/walk when mincing/chopping herbs... but I am just a lowly homecook and obviously unworthy of being here.

PS if you end up with a black mess after that maybe you should learn to sharpen your knives


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## HRC_64 (Aug 21, 2017)

panda said:


> thats what rock chopping is? i thought it was just the motion of following curvature of blade from tip to heel and repeat, like a slice.



IMHO, Rock chopping requires pressure on the tip, or a forward and backward cutting motion along the edge. 

Glide and slide (?) is just cutting with the tip on the board, one way ("in the proper direction"). Both use the full length of the blade vs just the push-cutting sweet spot.

"Rocking" back and forth is no-doubt useful in certain cases where combining ingredients, or even "bruising" them intentionally, is actually desired. When you are interested in yielding a paste, pesto, salsa, etc. Also with nuts which are prone to shearing vs slicing in any event. There is no point, for example, in "slicing" raw-almonds or walnuts by hand; usually you are looking for a different texture. So push cutting is sort of beside the point with nuts. 

There is also the fact that rocking will cover more ground more quickly than glide n slide when you are plowing through a pile because its essentially two blade lengths of cutting in each motion. Push cutting doesn't work in situations where the pile is larger than the sweet spot (flat spot) of the knife or you get accordian cuts; so you need larger and larger knifes to deal with larger piles (which is a disadvantage if you have the tools, and a non-starter if you are limited in sizes).

IMHO, rock chopping with euro-steel is probably best(german, swiss, fr. italian etc) because of suitable hardness and geometry. In particular the geometry is best when the heel is slightly off the deck and not flat on the board and the edge has some thicknss behind it....wedging is a non-issue of course....Just my $0.02

Let the flames for the heretic commence


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## Chef Doom (Aug 21, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Also with nuts which are prone to shearing vs slicing in any event. There is no point, for example, in "slicing" raw-almonds or walnuts by hand; usually you are looking for a different texture. So push cutting is sort of beside the point with nuts.
> 
> Let the flames for the heretic commence



Real men bash their nuts with mallets and hammers.


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## malexthekid (Aug 21, 2017)

Chef Doom said:


> Real men bash their nuts with mallets and hammers.


Pfft. That is pathetic... real men crush them with their bare hands while using their bare knuckles to forge their cleavers


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## Chef Doom (Aug 22, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> Pfft. That is pathetic... real men crush them with their bare hands while using their bare knuckles to forge their cleavers


True but I was looking for a reason to use my hammer other than tenderizing meat and going to Trump rallys with my "Everybody is wrong except me" tshirt. And my mallet is great for knocking on doors when I deliver packages but between 8pm and 7am it needs another purpose.


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## Chef_ (Aug 22, 2017)

malexthekid said:


> I define what you are talking about as rock chopping and the other as walking.
> 
> Both have a place.
> 
> ...



ugh..no matter how sharp your knives are, if you beat your herbs like they owe you money into the cutting board, theyre not going to last an entire service. At home you have the luxury of cutting them right before you need them.


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## Chef_ (Aug 22, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> IMHO, Rock chopping requires pressure on the tip, or a forward and backward cutting motion along the edge.
> 
> IMHO, rock chopping with euro-steel is probably best(german, swiss, fr. italian etc) because of suitable hardness and geometry. In particular the geometry is best when the heel is slightly off the deck and not flat on the board and the edge has some thicknss behind it....wedging is a non-issue of course....Just my $0.02
> 
> Let the flames for the heretic commence



Well I agree with you there, on the off chance i decide rock chopping is the way to go, out comes the ol' Mercer.


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## malexthekid (Aug 22, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> ugh..no matter how sharp your knives are, if you beat your herbs like they owe you money into the cutting board, theyre not going to last an entire service. At home you have the luxury of cutting them right before you need them.


That can be said of any technique. And speaks more to application if the technique than the technique itself.


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## GorillaGrunt (Aug 22, 2017)

panda said:


> the best technique is what ever the user is most comfortable and efficient with.



Wow, +1 to this - the best steel, the best profile, the best blade style, etc.


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## cheflivengood (Aug 22, 2017)

Chef_ said:


> ugh..no matter how sharp your knives are, if you beat your herbs like they owe you money into the cutting board, theyre not going to last an entire service. At home you have the luxury of cutting them right before you need them.



This is so not true, a knife thin behind the edge sharpened daily with the correct rocking motion will not destroy fresh picked herbs....maybe sorell or a delicate green but nothing that is usually minced.


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## panda (Aug 22, 2017)

cheflivengood said:


> This is so not true, a knife thin behind the edge sharpened daily with the correct rocking motion will not destroy fresh picked herbs....maybe sorell or a delicate green but nothing that is usually minced.



to reiterate this, you can chiffonade via rock chop and still get clean non bruised results provided the knife is sharp and the technique is smooth. for example you go over to pantry station and all they got is a big bellied shun and their sliced scallions are slimey crushed up mess. what do you do? you pull out the house stone, do a quick touch up, strop on cardboard, then you rock chop away slowly to show them again for the 100th time how to do it properly.


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## HRC_64 (Aug 22, 2017)

cheflivengood said:


> This is so not true, a knife thin behind the edge sharpened daily with the correct rocking motion ...




I'll say if people want to get pedantic, a knife+board--at any sharpness-- is the wrong tool for clean cuts. You are much better off with bypass (pruning) shears...

The issue of course is that this is not always the 'smartest' way to cut your herbs, once you factor in other considerations.

BTW, the japanese hamono's make awesome pruning gear...
so its not like they are unaware of this

Or they use swords (er, gyutos) for every task either

just a thought to consider.


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 22, 2017)

WOW, This advise isn't something you read every day. I don't even know where to start other than to say. WOW




HRC_64 said:


> I'll say if people want to get pedantic, a knife+board--at any sharpness-- is the wrong tool for clean cuts. You are much better off with bypass (pruning) shears...
> 
> The issue of course is that this is not always the 'smartest' way to cut your herbs, once you factor in other considerations.
> 
> ...


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## HRC_64 (Aug 22, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> WOW, This advise isn't something you read every day. I don't even know where to start other than to say. WOW



Maybe the next rabbit hole is japanese scissors =)


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## Chef_ (Aug 22, 2017)

I think the disagreement here is due to everyone having their own definition of "rock chopping".


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## Mucho Bocho (Aug 22, 2017)

Like these? 

[video=youtube;zGeV-pWBEHs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGeV-pWBEHs[/video]


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## HRC_64 (Aug 22, 2017)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Like these?



Hmm...may need to try the newsprint test with those LOL


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## Duckfat (Aug 22, 2017)

panda said:


> rock chop away slowly to show them again for the 100th time how to do it properly.



Sounds like the definition of insanity. Those who just can't adopt to proper technique are likely the same ones we've all seen wailing on a pile of herbs with two knives like Charles Manson on blotter. 

Dave


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## malexthekid (Aug 22, 2017)

panda said:


> to reiterate this, you can chiffonade via rock chop and still get clean non bruised results provided the knife is sharp and the technique is smooth. for example you go over to pantry station and all they got is a big bellied shun and their sliced scallions are slimey crushed up mess. what do you do? you pull out the house stone, do a quick touch up, strop on cardboard, then you rock chop away slowly to show them again for the 100th time how to do it properly.


Do I sense a touch of frustration in your example [emoji38]


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## K813zra (Aug 22, 2017)

Duckfat said:


> Sounds like the definition of insanity. Those who just can't adopt to proper technique are likely the same ones we've all seen wailing on a pile of herbs with two knives like Charles Manson on blotter.
> 
> Dave



Dude, that post just made my day.


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## Chef Doom (Aug 23, 2017)

HRC_64 said:


> Maybe the next rabbit hole is japanese scissors =)


This needs an entire line up. Never put knife marks on a cutting board ever again.


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## holdmyphone (Aug 24, 2017)

I feel the takeaway after all these comments is: Use the correct technique with the correct tool, and the correct tool for the job. That and perhaps we should have a discussion to define what exactly "rock chopping" means. Now excuse me I have a pair of Japanese scissors to order...


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## Chef Doom (Aug 24, 2017)

holdmyphone said:


> I feel the takeaway after all these comments is: Use the correct technique with the correct tool, and the correct tool for the job. That and perhaps we should have a discussion to define what exactly "rock chopping" means. Now excuse me I have a pair of Japanese scissors to order...


In blue #2 I'm assuming.


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## holdmyphone (Aug 24, 2017)

Chef Doom said:


> In blue #2 I'm assuming.



Why, of course...


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## SliceNDice (Aug 26, 2017)

Work on your technique and you'll be rock-chopn' with a straight razor if you choose.


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## Chef Doom (Aug 28, 2017)

SliceNDice said:


> Work on your technique and you'll be rock-chopn' with a straight razor if you choose.


Hahaha now this requires a video.


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