# Hand-Rubbed Finish



## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 2, 2011)

How much do you guys leave at the edge when you go to a hand-rubbed finish? Target edge thickness is <.005 when done.
Thanks,

M


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## Mike Davis (Dec 2, 2011)

Honestly....Usually thin enough to cut me a few times as i am sanding lol, So i guess i am right there with you.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 2, 2011)

I guess, I should have phrased my question differently. How much metal does a hand finishing remove if you start from 220 and go all the way to 600-1000 grit finish?

M


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## Mike Davis (Dec 2, 2011)

Maybe .015 per side max? It is not a lot...


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 2, 2011)

Mike Davis said:


> Maybe .015 per side max? It is not a lot...



That would put me through the edge -it's about .012 now, but it gives me some perspective. Thanks.

M


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## WillC (Dec 2, 2011)

I can't work out those small amounts in inches:O But I tend to grind the edge to just over 0.1mm, Hand rub knocking the edge back with an edm stone to about 0.1mm between grits. Seems quite a nice way to keep things even. I've cut myself loads too handrubbing, always the worst cuts that way.:sad0:


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 2, 2011)

Sounds good, thanks Will -


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## jmforge (Dec 2, 2011)

What I do is hand sand to say 400 grit or sometimes 600 , put a basic edge on the knife and then go back and finish hand sanding CAREFULLY, then clean up the edge. hand sanding with 600 will take out scratches from settingthe edge with a 400 gritbelt just as easily as 400 grit sandpaper scratches from hand sanding.


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## PierreRodrigue (Dec 2, 2011)

Hey Marko, I take my edge to sa .015 to .020 before hand finishing. I stop grinding at 220, then disc to 600, and hand rub to desired finish. I susally end up with an edge of 5 to 7 thou. Hope this helps.


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## RRLOVER (Dec 2, 2011)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> I guess, I should have phrased my question differently. How much metal does a hand finishing remove if you start from 220 and go all the way to 600-1000 grit finish?
> 
> M



I am very curious why you would hand sand that much.I would got to 1k or 600 on the grinder then 1k by hand.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 2, 2011)

I haven't really done much hand-finishign in the past, so this was just a guess. I have Norax polishing belts X65, X45 and X30, but nothing finer, so I stop at about 320 grit. I know that one has to drop one level down on sand paper so I figured start with 220, then 320, 600 and either stop there or go to 1200. I do most of the grinding with 60 grit belt and some of those scratches are deep, and hard to remove.

How do you guys avoid overpolighing the edge of the heel? A friend suggest I hand-sand with tip facing me. 

Thanks for your response. This is a new territory for me. 

M


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## RRLOVER (Dec 2, 2011)

I thought 30x was 600 grit. Any way I pull sand from the heel to the tip in one direction.But I am going from 5x belt to 2k hand sanding.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 2, 2011)

30 micron is about 320 grit equivalent. 5 micron is about 1200 equivalent, so yes, you can jump to 1000 grit from 5 micron. 
In the past, heel to tip would always result in a shiny edge on the heel, so I am going to try tip to heel this time. 

M


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## PierreRodrigue (Dec 2, 2011)

I use a Micarta triangle shaped pushed stick. The hard back prevents rounding edges.


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## RRLOVER (Dec 2, 2011)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> 30 micron is about 320 grit equivalent. 5 micron is about 1200 equivalent, so yes, you can jump to 1000 grit from 5 micron.
> In the past, heel to tip would always result in a shiny edge on the heel, so I am going to try tip to heel this time.
> 
> M



My receipt from tru grit is saying a 30x gator is 600 grit,I guess I better look in to this.


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## Bill Burke (Dec 2, 2011)

RRLOVER said:


> My receipt from tru grit is saying a 30x gator is 600 grit,I guess I better look in to this.



yep mine to. they also tell me that x5 is 3000 grit. I finish my knives to x5 or x4 and then drop back to 1000 grit to hand finish. my knives are usually sharp enough to shave with when the come off the grinder. one way to keep from cutting yourself is to use a board that is just wider than your knife for backing then keep the edge just behind the board.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 3, 2011)

Opps... Maybe I am off. I got it from here:
http://www.sisweb.com/micromesh/conversion.htm
and here:
http://www.reade.com/Sieve/grit_conversion.html

but then here it is more along the line you guys were told:
http://www.faceters.com/askjeff/answer67.shtml

Go figure.


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## RRLOVER (Dec 3, 2011)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Opps... Maybe I am off. I got it from here:
> http://www.sisweb.com/micromesh/conversion.htm
> and here:
> http://www.reade.com/Sieve/grit_conversion.html
> ...



When looked in to it I found three answers too.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 3, 2011)

RRLOVER said:


> When looked in to it I found three answers too.



If you look at micromesh numbers, they see to be very similar to those TruGrit provides with finishing belts. Perhaps that might be the answer, though Micromesh MX (for finishing steel) is more along the line of typical sandpaper grits. 

Norax A30 (or X30, don't remember) scratches seem to fall into 320-400 grit than 600, but I am drawing it form y limited experience.

M


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## l r harner (Dec 3, 2011)

one nice thing about the gator belts is they dont often leave "big scratches" more often the not you are seeing a scratch for a lower grit belt that you jsut didnt get out before handsanding


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## RRLOVER (Dec 3, 2011)

I am using the gators A30,I would imagine that the norax x30 should give a similar finish but I can't confirm that.I am going from a gator a30 to a norax 16x then norax 5x.Some hand sanding with 2k norton paper then I am done.If I buggered it a little I might have to drop to 1k but that is some easy sanding at that point.


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## jmforge (Dec 3, 2011)

Nah, Butch....the best thing about Gator belts is they don't go bumpity bump and they last more than 4 or 5 passes with vanadium bearing steel.


l r harner said:


> one nice thing about the gator belts is they dont often leave "big scratches" more often the not you are seeing a scratch for a lower grit belt that you jsut didnt get out before handsanding


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## Chef Niloc (Dec 3, 2011)

Ok non knife maker input here, but I have polished a lot of stuff so maybe I can help?

I always here makers ( Butch for one) refer to a 800 belt finish. I'm guessing this means just that, 800 belt no hand sanding? So I would think 800 you should be able to do by belt?

Now for paper, start one step back from the last belt (600). I read Del post once about using wd40 on a stack of newspaper, I tried it and liked it. I stepped up to a firm rubber mat/pad. 
Side note: I don't know what this rubber stuff is or what it's meantime for but it's red, about 1/4" thick. Looks like the same stuff them rubber sanding blocks are made from? I bought the pad from a leather craft shop. Its used to protect the edges of punching tools as you hammer threw leather. it's not cheep, but my thinking is that its made for other things and the leather shops just mark it up a lot? so if anyone knows what this stuff is and a place to get it cheep I'd love to know. 

Any way I also tried honing/ cutting oil and it works better then wd40. I move back and forth then step up a grade (800) I do a bunch of swirly moves and then go back down to 600 grit and do more swirly moves. Now back up to 800 for the back and forth movement. I find that by stepping back each time that it gets the job done faster. I think it has more to do with just being able to see the left over scratches from the grit befor more easily? Any way I do this all the way up to at lest 2000 grit paper. I guess you would have to go to micro mesh to get more of a polish, but a machine buffer comes to mind?

I like klingspor silicon carbide paper that I get from here http://www.woodworkingshop.com/category.aspx?id=23&f5=SILICON+CARBIDE+WET/DRY&f1=9+++X+11

Find them cheaper then trugrit . I like the klingspor more then the 3M and its cheaper so thats a plus. That sad i like Hermes abrasives (belts I have used) does anyone know if they ( Hermes) makes sheets or roles and who sales them?

Hop that helped?


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## jmforge (Dec 3, 2011)

I use a 3m rubber sanding block and Tap magic cutting fluid.


Chef Niloc said:


> Ok non knife maker input here, but I have polished a lot of stuff so maybe I can help?
> 
> I always here makers ( Butch for one) refer to a 800 belt finish. I'm guessing this means just that, 800 belt no hand sanding? So I would think 800 you should be able to do by belt?
> 
> ...


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 3, 2011)

Do you need cutting oil, or any kind of oil would do? I have a good amount of way and spindle oil. Does anybody use Windex? I don't plan to go past 600 for a nice satin finish. I find over-polished knives are easy to scratch and have to be babied - I would rather people used my knives hard. 

I haven't used Klingspor, but should give them a try. I normally get 3M Emperial from Supergrid for handles. Seems to work reasonably well for hand rubbing.

M

PS: just looked up that way oil can be used as a cutting oil. Will git it a try. I used Windex up to now.


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## jmforge (Dec 3, 2011)

Marko, Norton Black Ice and Rhynowet are the best wet-dry automotive sandpapers brands that I have used.


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## Bill Burke (Dec 3, 2011)

******* said:


> Marko, Norton Black Ice and Rhynowet are the best wet-dry automotive sandpapers brands that I have used.



exactly what I was going to say. Also I use spra way glass cleaner.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks guys. Can you recommend a place where to get these papers?

M


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## Bill Burke (Dec 4, 2011)

Marko Tsourkan said:


> Thanks guys. Can you recommend a place where to get these papers?
> 
> M



Marko try a local auto paint supply store that sells Norton products.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 4, 2011)

You must have better stores than I, as I never seem to find things locally. Will look for it online. Thanks, Bill -


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## Bill Burke (Dec 4, 2011)

found this place online. northeast automotive paint, 3631 Boston Road, Bronx, NY 
(718) 519-1414 () &#8206; · autopaint18.com and this place is closer but no mention of norton products. "Albert Kemperle Auto Body Supplies, 331 North Main Street, Port Chester, NY 
(914) 305-4594 () &#8206;


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 4, 2011)

Bill Burke said:


> found this place online. northeast automotive paint, 3631 Boston Road, Bronx, NY
> (718) 519-1414 () &#8206; · autopaint18.com and this place is closer but no mention of norton products. "Albert Kemperle Auto Body Supplies, 331 North Main Street, Port Chester, NY
> (914) 305-4594 () &#8206;



Wow, Bill - 
northeast automotive paint should be within miles from me. 
Thanks


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## WillC (Dec 4, 2011)

I don't know how you guys are getting such a good finish off a belt. I can't get gator belts here, but have the trizact 3m ones in a45/130 and a16. They don't seem to cut for very long and i've pretty much given up going beyond 180gt ceramic on a belt. I do my first cut against the grain with a 180gt edm stone, then 180gt abrasive, 320 then 600. If i've made a good job of getting the initial scratches out at 180gt, its all good from there. If damascus I etch and polish the highs with 1500 or 2000gt micro-mesh. I use the rolls of hermes super abrasive, they are good. I find old ceramic belts ripped up great for hand rubbing too, and it feels good making the most use of them.


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## jmforge (Dec 4, 2011)

Bill, IMO, the 280 grit Black Ice may be the best of the bunch. Burt Foster told me to buy that stuff. Sometimes he uses it for a final finish on some of his knives. I have no idea why it should be better even than the other higher grits of Black Ice, but it just seems like it is. Cuts FAST and very clean.


Bill Burke said:


> exactly what I was going to say. Also I use spra way glass cleaner.


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## Bill Burke (Dec 4, 2011)

I use the Black Ice paper for all my hand finishing. They make it up to 2000 grit. spa-way glass and surface cleaner for lube. I can finish a blade to 2000 grit with less than a sheet of each grit. It s by far the best paper I have used.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 5, 2011)

For a nice satin finish, what grits of *Norton Black Ice* would you recommend?

I was thinking 280 (I think I stop grinding at 320 equivalent), 400, 600, 800. 

M


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## jmforge (Dec 5, 2011)

That is a good start. The look/color of the paper changes at 1000 to a more gray color and it doesn't seem as aggressive as the jet black stuff in the 280-800 range. Still good stuff but maybe not substantially better than other automotive wet=dry paper like its coarser grit brethren appear to be. The black Rhynowet paper from Portugal is very good too. I have also had some sample pieces of Rhynowet's "red" paper and it cuts like a mother too and you can use it on wood and other stuff that might get stained by black paper.


Marko Tsourkan said:


> For a nice satin finish, what grits of *Norton Black Ice* would you recommend?
> 
> I was thinking 280 (I think I stop grinding at 320 equivalent), 400, 600, 800.
> 
> M


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 5, 2011)

******* said:


> That is a good start. The look/color of the paper changes at 1000 to a more gray color and it doesn't seem as aggressive as the jet black stuff in the 280-800 range. Still good stuff but maybe not substantially better than other automotive wet=dry paper like its coarser grit brethren appear to be. The black Rhynowet paper from Portugal is very good too. I have also had some sample pieces of Rhynowet's "red" paper and it cuts like a mother too and you can use it on wood and other stuff that might get stained by black paper.



A quick question, does it matter if lower grits paper are not Norton Black Ice if you plan on finishing with higher grits of Norton Black Ice (800-1000) ? In other words, do you need to set a foundation with lower grits of Norton Black Ice for a good finish?

I was thinking using 3M (have on hand) in 220, 320 and then go to 600, 800, and maybe 1000 of Black Ice. 

M


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## jmforge (Dec 5, 2011)

If I could only buy one grit of Black Ice, it would be the 280 for "heavy lifting". That stuff outperforms any 220 or 320 I have used from other manufacturers by a fair margin.


Marko Tsourkan said:


> A quick question, does it matter if lower grits paper are not Norton Black Ice if you plan on finishing with higher grits of Norton Black Ice (800-1000) ? In other words, do you need to set a foundation with lower grits of Norton Black Ice for a good finish?
> 
> I was thinking using 3M (have on hand) in 220, 320 and then go to 600, 800, and maybe 1000 of Black Ice.
> 
> M


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## Marko Tsourkan (Dec 5, 2011)

******* said:


> If I could only buy one grit of Black Ice, it would be the 280 for "heavy lifting". That stuff outperforms any 220 or 320 I have used from other manufacturers by a fair margin.



I bought Black Ice in 600, 800 and 1000. I have a good supply of 3M Emperial in 220 and 320. I am wondering lower grits of Black Ice are critical for a good foundation.

M


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## Bill Burke (Dec 9, 2011)

use the 3m stuff you have for the lower grits there is no sense in throwing it out. Like JM said the black ice out performs the other stuff but as you suggest it is the finish that makes the big difference.


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