# Rum and Bourbon.



## playford (Dec 23, 2012)

So any Rum drinkers out there?

For mixed drinks my fav rums are Havana club anejo (for with ginger or coke) or I love Appleton V/X with a little splash of apple/pear juice.

Just getting into sipping style rums, I tried the appleton 12 and its superb, very concentrated flavour.

I'd like to try more small batch bourbons, after a misspent youth where jack daniels and coke was a food group lol :lol2: I'd like to try some of the proper stuff. Rum though luckily remains really under priced for what your getting (especially if you compare it to scottish single malts).

Oddly I'm an Irishman that doesen't drink whiskey lol.


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## The Edge (Dec 23, 2012)

Zaya 12 year old is one of my favorites. Not too bad a price either in my opinion.


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## phasedweasel (Dec 23, 2012)

I really enjoyed the Mocambo 20 yr rum this summer. It was delicious neat in a glass, that smooth and interesting.


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## jmforge (Dec 23, 2012)

REAL Havana Club 7 year old from Cuba, 15 year old Barbancourt from Haiti and Pampero Aniversario from Venezuela are among my favorite rums.


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## unkajonet (Dec 23, 2012)

Pampero Aniversario. Goes down real well on its own (or with a single cube of ice in the glass to slowly mellow it out). And not so expensive that you can't use it to mix with other things...


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## playford (Dec 23, 2012)

Oddly I find the 7yr old Havana club a little sweet if mixed, nice as a sipper.

They have just replaced the Havana club barrel proof with a "selection des maestros" I really want to try. A local bar has got Ron Zacapa 23 in as well that may get a rattle..lol

Could anyone reccommend a good starting point bourbon for me? Makers Mark? Jefferson, Elijah Craig? I'd like something without huge oak/smoke, just to try something in a different style to Jack Daniels (and yes I know its not bourbon but a Tennessee whiskey!). 


It's a bit like the leap from Captain Morgan to the good stuff in rum


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## Vertigo (Dec 23, 2012)

Bourbons are aged in charred oak casks--it's what gives them their distinct color and toxicity--so chasing a bourbon that isn't heavy on oak and smoke is like looking for a hamburger that's light on the "meaty" taste.

Stick with Irish or Scotch whiskeys.


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## jmforge (Dec 23, 2012)

No so. Scotch and Irish whiskeys are DOUBLE smoky. Peat smoked malt and charred barrels. If you want a "milder" bourbon, go with one of the wheated varieties like Makers Mark, Weller, Jefferson etc.


Vertigo said:


> Bourbons are aged in charred oak casks--it's what gives them their distinct color and toxicity--so chasing a bourbon that isn't heavy on oak and smoke is like looking for a hamburger that's light on the "meaty" taste.
> 
> Stick with Irish or Scotch whiskeys.


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## EdipisReks (Dec 24, 2012)

all bourbons are mild. i've had a couple hundred varieties, and all are smooth as mothers milk compared to an Islay.


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## Vertigo (Dec 24, 2012)

Scotch, generally, reuses barrels or imports spent barrels from the United States, rather than using new and freshly charred barrels (as is done in bourbon); Irish whiskey might use bourbon casks or sherry casks or mederia casks. To say Scotch and Irish whiskey are DOUBLE smokey, compared to bourbon which--by definition--is aged in a freshly charred barrel, is an outright fallacy. The very reason bourbons are darker by and large than Scotch and Irish whiskey is because of the charred barrels.

There are a thousand words I'd use to describe Jameson, but "smokey" wouldn't make the top ten.



EdipisReks said:


> and all are smooth as mothers milk compared to an Islay.


What about compared to a Speyside like Glenfiddich?


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## dmccurtis (Dec 24, 2012)

I agree, to call all bourbons mild compared to an Islay is cherry picking. There are lots of mild Scotch, and there are bourbons comparable in difficulty to Islays. 

As for rum, I like Demeraras. El Dorado 12, 15, and 21 year old are all good, getting drier and spicier with age.


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## playford (Dec 24, 2012)

Typically your standard Irish whiskey say bushmills or jamesons for example, arent heavily "peated" (there are some small exceptions) and doesen't have that heavily smoked taste you get for the Islay lads like Laphroaig (uses makers mark casks I hear!), Lagavulin, and Ardbeg that are very, very smokey. My dad complains if I pick him up anything peated and in fact usually anything that isnt irish. 

Actually one of my fav rums re-uses jack daniels casks as well, Appleton.

Basically to use a wine example you get some new world wines especially shiraz from Oz or chile, that uses a huge amount of fresh oak staves or oak chips in bags to try and artificially age and give body to wine. I really don't enjoy this stuff. However a Californian Syrah or a Burgundy doesent seem to hammer you with over the top harsh artificial tasting oak. 

Basically I'm saying I'd like to go with something not as heavily peated as islay, but obviously more than something like jamesons.

So makers mark seems to be the a good basic starting point for this kind of stuff.

Aldi in the uk had el dorado 18yr old for something like £30, beyond cheap. Sadly they arent in NI


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## mhlee (Dec 24, 2012)

If you want to start with a bourbon that's mild, try Basil Hayden's. It's a small batch bourbon that, IMHO, has an extremely round, balanced flavor (which some might consider soft, but I happen to enjoy because it's not very hot, smoky or spicy like a rye) that's 80 proof so it doesn't have the burn of higher proof bourbons. It also spends less time in the barrel than other bourbons so it's not going to have the smokiness that you're trying to avoid. 

Other bourbons that are have the flavor profile you're looking for include, again, IMHO, in increasing richness/smokiness, Cyrus Noble, Bulleit, Maker's Mark, Knob Creek and others. At the top, as far as smokiness, richness, power go, are the barrel proof bourbons like Baker's, Booker's, etc. 

Nontheless, I have always found Jim Beam to be far superior to Jack, and for a middle range priced bourbon, I think Bulleit and Wathen's are superior to Maker's Mark. If you're going to mix, Old Crow Reserve and Old Grandad (Bonded) are good choices at the lower end.


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## ecchef (Dec 24, 2012)

I am fortunate enough to get Woodford Reserve regularly here. One of the few bourbons I'll spend money on.


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## JohnnyChance (Dec 24, 2012)

ecchef said:


> I am fortunate enough to get Woodford Reserve regularly here. One of the few bourbons I'll spend money on.



I like Woodford too. The best in that mid level price range I think.

I have tried the Zaya Reserva and Diplomatico Reserva Exclusiva at work, both of which were quite nice. I haven't been a huge rum guy, but these are completely different from the normal rum-and-coke rums. They really shouldn't even be called the same thing. More like a nice whiskey. And like someone else mentioned, a good value. Where as tequilas and bourbons have been all the rage the past few years, driving markups and prices higher, rum hasn't garnered the same attention.


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## Vertigo (Dec 24, 2012)

playford said:


> Basically I'm saying I'd like to go with something not as heavily peated as islay, but obviously more than something like jamesons.
> 
> So makers mark seems to be the a good basic starting point



I want something not as sweet as a grape, but obviously more round than an apple. So an orange seems like a good starting point.


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## pumbaa (Dec 24, 2012)

Mixing at home is makers mark, if I'm splurging I go to basil Hayden or woodford reserve. Not a rum drinker though. I also like Booker's, bullet, and knob creek, if I was rich pappy would be my drink of choice.


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## DeepCSweede (Dec 24, 2012)

For sipping rums my favorites are Royal Oak (which I can't find locally and get from a friend from Trinidad), ElDorado 12 yr and 21 yr.

I just started drinking whisky again and picked up a woodford the other day.


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## jmforge (Dec 24, 2012)

The smoothness of Hayden, as with any bourbon, has more to do with how it is made and how it is selected than how long it has aged. Longer aging actually makes for a hooch that burns LESS and LATER. 10-12 year old Old Weller burns less in the mouth than say a 4 year old bourbon for some reason. It REALLY becomes noticeab;le with stuff like the 18 year old Jefferson, but to make that stuff, you have to have a fairly special batch that is going to respond to longer aging. Most bourbon doesn't really gain much of anything after say 10-12 years in the cask.The mashbill is also important. Unlike single malt which has one grain, bourbon mash typically contains 3 grains, corn, barley and either rye or wheat in varying proportions, typically 70% corn and 15% each of the other two. The exception is Weller which sometimes pushes the envelope by taking the percentage of corn all the way down to the legal minimum of 51% and jacking up the wheat content to around 34%. if you want a bourbon that many would would "mild" try something like Weller Centennial. Makers mark is also a wheated bourbon and would be a good starting point. it has a bit more corn, but it is not "hot" or "smoky" IMO, the major flavor difference between these and "regular" bourbons is the inclusion of rye in the mashbill. But different does not automtically mean hot or smoky. The aforementioned Haydens and Woodford both contain rye, but they do not really taste the same.


mhlee said:


> If you want to start with a bourbon that's mild, try Basil Hayden's. It's a small batch bourbon that, IMHO, has an extremely round, balanced flavor (which some might consider soft, but I happen to enjoy because it's not very hot, smoky or spicy like a rye) that's 80 proof so it doesn't have the burn of higher proof bourbons. It also spends less time in the barrel than other bourbons so it's not going to have the smokiness that you're trying to avoid.
> 
> Other bourbons that are have the flavor profile you're looking for include, again, IMHO, in increasing richness/smokiness, Cyrus Noble, Bulleit, Maker's Mark, Knob Creek and others. At the top, as far as smokiness, richness, power go, are the barrel proof bourbons like Baker's, Booker's, etc.
> 
> Nontheless, I have always found Jim Beam to be far superior to Jack, and for a middle range priced bourbon, I think Bulleit and Wathen's are superior to Maker's Mark. If you're going to mix, Old Crow Reserve and Old Grandad (Bonded) are good choices at the lower end.


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## playford (Dec 24, 2012)

Just picked up the appleton VX tonight, our local store has makers mark on offer so I'm gonna pick that up for nye 

Wathen's and some of these are crazy expensive in the uk compared to the states wathens would cost me close on $70 a bottle!.


http://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/P-1218.aspx

http://www.bourbonwhisky.co.uk/2010101538/basil-haydens.html

haydens is about 80 a bottle.


Crazy, makers is about $30 a btl.


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## EdipisReks (Dec 24, 2012)

dmccurtis said:


> There are lots of mild Scotch, and there are bourbons comparable in difficulty to Islays.



I was being silly.


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## playford (Dec 24, 2012)

JohnnyChance said:


> I like Woodford too. The best in that mid level price range I think.
> 
> I have tried the Zaya Reserva and Diplomatico Reserva Exclusiva at work, both of which were quite nice. I haven't been a huge rum guy, but these are completely different from the normal rum-and-coke rums. They really shouldn't even be called the same thing. More like a nice whiskey. And like someone else mentioned, a good value. Where as tequilas and bourbons have been all the rage the past few years, driving markups and prices higher, rum hasn't garnered the same attention.



I started on good rum after a visit to cuba, the prices for what your getting are just silly. I think that's slowly changing, I've noticed supermarkets stocking higher end rums I thought I'd never see in the uk.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I'm a big fan of Don Pampero Anniversario, and also a big fan of El Dorado 12 year+. Of course, there is always Ron Zacapa 23. I pretty much drink rum, can't have anything else without a headache. I am a big fan of the demerara style if you couldn't tell. I probably bought 30 bottles of the Don Pampero in the last couple of years, and a dozen of the latter two. I always like to keep multiple bottles on hand, they many times sell out.


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## Crothcipt (Dec 25, 2012)

Never been a Bourbon/whiskey fan. But when I drank it was usually a double rum and coke. Bacardi was my style, I always thought that Capt. was way to sweet. Now that I think back to a few I tried with coke I bet they would have been better neat instead of mixed. 

And yes I could always tell the difference between coke and pepsi. pepsi is sweeter, coke has more cinnamon in the flavor.


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## Don Nguyen (Dec 28, 2012)

Anyone up for a $200,000 bottle of whiskey?

[video=youtube;vH5PxpfbslI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vH5PxpfbslI#![/video]


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Dec 28, 2012)

All that for a blended whiskey?!


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## SpikeC (Dec 28, 2012)

Fer cryin' out loud! They put the woodwork together with busicut joinery! That is bovine excrement in the extreme!


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## playford (Dec 30, 2012)

Crothcipt said:


> Never been a Bourbon/whiskey fan. But when I drank it was usually a double rum and coke. Bacardi was my style, I always thought that Capt. was way to sweet. Now that I think back to a few I tried with coke I bet they would have been better neat instead of mixed.
> 
> And yes I could always tell the difference between coke and pepsi. pepsi is sweeter, coke has more cinnamon in the flavor.



The difference between white bacardi and really good rum is like the difference in a kitchen knife from ikea and a hattori KD. lol.


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## AFKitchenknivesguy (Dec 30, 2012)

My GF drinks Bicardi and I always forget it's rum. To me, it smells like lighter fluid.


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## playford (Dec 30, 2012)

Even in white rum like usual bacardi.

Take your store bacardi and make a mojito with it and compare the same drink with one made with white havana club.

totally different, bacardi is total junk.


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## jmforge (Dec 30, 2012)

playford said:


> Even in white rum like usual bacardi.
> 
> Take your store bacardi and make a mojito with it and compare the same drink with one made with white havana club.
> 
> totally different, bacardi is total junk.


The other cheaper Cuban whites like Varadero and Bucanero along with about half of the ones from PR and DR and a fair number from the British speaking part of the area are better. I would like to try some of the J. Wray and Nephew overproof white. Yeah, i know that they make Captain Morgan's which is a travesty in liquid form only suitable for drunken outdoor cooking, but they also make Appleton and Sainsbury, so it might be worth a try.


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