# Newbie sharpener



## milkbaby (Aug 22, 2016)

Hi all, I've been lurking and enjoying learning about kitchen knives on the forum. Totally addicted now, I've always enjoyed cooking at home and now have even more excuse to not eat out.

I used to watch my mom use natural stones that my grandpa gave her back in the 1980s, but unfortunately they are either missing or hidden away somewhere (mom passed away a few years ago). So I bought a King 1000/6000 combo stone, and tried sharpening a cheap knife last night, a Hampton Forge stainless steel santoku.

Unfortunately the blade edge doesn't go all the way to the heel, there's a dull flat spot maybe 4mm at the very end. I kept running it over the stone but didn't get it ground down a lot. Wondering if it's worth getting a $1 stone from the dollar store to grind that part down? I can see if this knife gets sharpened more times that section will be a problem, like a full bolster on a German knife keeping the blade heel from fully contacting the cutting board.

Also, I guess I should've checked while sharpening, but the right side bevel is way further up the blade now versus the left, LOL! It's definitely sharper now but not as sharp as my first Japanese knife out of the box. Will it ever get at least that sharp? Or is it a problem of geometry when cutting veggies, as I can see and feel that this knife is rather thick behind the edge.

Also, what are the most common newbie pitfalls and errors when learning to sharpen? I watched some Jon Broida videos after I finished, maybe I should've watched them before I started? :whistling:


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 22, 2016)

The Dollar store coarse stones can be slow and/or very confusing in feel. IMHO getting an inexpensive coarse waterstone will be the better strategy. Also, be careful with cheap diamond plates, they can cause hours-to-repair finish damage in seconds.

...

Still being kind of a beginner, two mistakes that got me:

-not paying attention to deburring

-underestimating what "soft obstacles" do to your angle holding. Things that aren't directly in your hand's path but which you still instinctively stay clear of (open liquid containers, sharp tools ...). You'll flinch and move around them without even noticing.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 22, 2016)

Your Hampton Forge santoku falls into the category of "hard to sharpen", so I'd suggest a silicon carbide stone for it, rather than waste your waterstones.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001MSA5Y/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The coarse side should make it easier to correct the heel problem.

Yes, it probably could use thinning.

Some newbie pitfalls to avoid: 

- not checking your work frequently so you can see what you're doing and adjust your technique. Use a marker to color the edge so you can see when you have your angle correct.

- using too much pressure and removing too much steel.

- going to fast. Pay attention to holding a constant angle. Speed will come over time as you develop "muscle memory".


----------



## foody518 (Aug 22, 2016)

The 1k waterstone is far too fine to take off the metal you're going to need to remove near the heel in a timely manner, and it'll reduce the stones lifetime by quite a bit in the process. Coarse SiC stone is an option, as well as like 80-220 or so grit sandpaper (may need more than 1 sheet) fixed to a raised flat surface, edge trailing strokes only, focusing on only that section. Or a coarse diamond plate, but be really careful and work slowly.
Make sure you're using the Sharpie trick and carefully monitoring your progress!


----------



## sharptools (Aug 22, 2016)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Your Hampton Forge santoku falls into the category of "hard to sharpen", so I'd suggest a silicon carbide stone for it, rather than waste your waterstones.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001MSA5Y/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> ...



PT, This is most likely a stupid question but I have no experience with oilstones. When you're cutting fast do you use oil or water? Or do you never use water?


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 22, 2016)

...too fine stones (and in the end just microbevelling on top of a factory edge) can leave you with the dangerous impression that the effect of a whetstone is magical, invisible, subtle... OTOH, setting an actual edge with a #3000 is good for your muscle memory


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 22, 2016)

sharptools said:


> PT, This is most likely a stupid question but I have no experience with oilstones. When you're cutting fast do you use oil or water? Or do you never use water?



I have a couple of older oilstones (Arkansas stones I inherited from my grandfather) that I use with oil. I have other oilstones (a black Arkansas and the silicon carbide I mentioned) that I use with water. I prefer water, as it is easier to clean up after sharpening. It doesn't seem to make any difference in cutting speed of the stone, which is a function of the grit, though that wasn't what I was referring to when I said "going too fast". What I was cautioning against was trying to emulate the rapid strokes used by many of the expert sharpeners in their videos. 

Note that though is is possible to use water on an oilstone, the reverse is not true - never use oil on a waterstone.


----------



## psfred (Aug 22, 2016)

Trying to sharpen a cheap stainless knife on a 1000 grit stone will make you old before your time -- I actually recommend a belt sander for that knife before trying to sharpen it on stones.

Typically inexpensive stainless knives are fairly thick behind the edge and sharpened at fairly obtuse angles (20 degrees per side or more), and you will need a coarse stone of some sort to get them thin enough to actually sharpen properly. Sadly, even when you get them thin, the edge won't hold up well, just the nature of RC 56 stainless.

If you don't want to start on your Japanese knives, look around for something like a Chicago Cutlery or Forgecraft carbon steel knife, they are inexpensive and have a decent profile that won't take a huge amount of work to actually get sharp. CC in stainless with walnut handles (US made, not the Chinese ones) are decent as well.

Peter


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 23, 2016)

psfred putting a 16 degree or so edge, and a more obtuse (18-25°) microbevel, could be a good compromise for this type of steel. Might need to be occasionally stropped/steeled at both angles


----------



## milkbaby (Aug 23, 2016)

Thank you all for the informative comments and tips! I'm a total newbie to sharpening, so it's great to learn from your comments.




psfred said:


> Typically inexpensive stainless knives are fairly thick behind the edge and sharpened at fairly obtuse angles (20 degrees per side or more), and you will need a coarse stone of some sort to get them thin enough to actually sharpen properly. Sadly, even when you get them thin, the edge won't hold up well, just the nature of RC 56 stainless.



My intention in sharpening this cheap stainless knife was to practice without ruining a nice Japanese blade. While it seems like the consensus is that this knife is not able to be made usefully sharp as a quality blade, will it actually be detrimental to keep sharpening these types of knives for experience/practice? I also have some slightly nicer German stainless steel I could sharpen (they say X50CrMoV15 on them), would that be any better or should I look for those other knives on eBay and thrift stores to practice on?


----------



## foody518 (Aug 23, 2016)

Sharpening the cheap thick-ish stainless stuff will still allow you to build muscle memory/angle holding consistency and practice habits like using Sharpie to follow your progress, stopping and checking your work regularly, but just take note it will take more time to get results on those knives. If the Germans stainless steel knives are thick behind the edge as well or have that fingerguard bolster you will be facing similar tasks


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Aug 23, 2016)

There are some good arguments in favor of starting on carbon knives, but if you have made your mind to start sharpening on cheap stainless, you can definitely do it. It might take more time to get the results, but if you have the time and the will, it could help giving you more confidence before you start sharpening on more expensive blades. I suggest you get a 300 stone (JNS 300 or King 300 Deluxe, for instance) too.


----------



## daveb (Aug 23, 2016)

milkbaby said:


> Thank you all for the informative comments and tips! I'm a total newbie to sharpening, so it's great to learn from your comments.
> 
> 
> My intention in sharpening this cheap stainless knife was to practice without ruining a nice Japanese blade. While it seems like the consensus is that this knife is not able to be made usefully sharp as a quality blade, will it actually be detrimental to keep sharpening these types of knives for experience/practice? I also have some slightly nicer German stainless steel I could sharpen (they say X50CrMoV15 on them), would that be any better or should I look for those other knives on eBay and thrift stores to practice on?



I will argue that it can in fact be detrimental to practice for "real" knives by sharpening "cheap stainless" blades. The thickness at the edge, the soft, unresponsive steel and other characteristics of crap steel will have you practicing with to much pressure, to much sharpening to see any results. And should you arrive at any sort of an edge you will lose it the first time you stress it with even light duty use.

I'll also argue the premise that you can "ruin" a quality knife with neophyte sharpening. You would have to something very wrong, with a lot of pressure, for a long time, to permanently affect the latent qualities of a knife. 

If you must "practice", I suggest you spend some time on the bay searching for vintage carbon and pick up a $20.00 Forgecraft - the boning knife and breaking knife are excellent blades - or something similar that strikes your fancy. At the end of the day you'll have a functional knife.


----------



## idemhj (Aug 23, 2016)

daveb said:


> I will argue that it can in fact be detrimental to practice for "real" knives by sharpening "cheap stainless" blades. The thickness at the edge, the soft, unresponsive steel and other charactoristics of crap steel will have you practicing with to much pressure, to much sharpening to see any results. And should you arrive at any sort of an edge you will lose it the first time you stress it with even light duty use.
> 
> I'll also argue the premise that you can "ruin" a quality knife with neophyte sharpening. You would have to something very wrong, with a lot of pressure, for a long time, to permently affect the latent qualities of a knife.
> 
> If you must "practice", I suggest you spend some time on the bay searching for vintage carbon and pick up a $20.00 Forgecraft - the boning knife and breaking knife are excellent blades - or something similar that strikes your fancy. At the end of the day you'll have a functional knife.



+1. I started my sharpening career (well, career may be exaggerating a little) on cheap stainless 'practice knives' and nearly gave up because it was an exercise in futility. But I thought, no way, and gave it a shot at one of my carbons, and wow... I could actually get it sharp. The 'practice on cheap stainless-school' is, in my opinion and from my experience, just wrong. Dare to be brave, you will not ruin your knife


----------



## milkbaby (Aug 24, 2016)

Thanks for the comments and advice! I am looking at some old carbon Forgecrafts on ebay. I will continue to goof around with my cheapo stainless but keep in mind the issues everybody here has brought up.

I'm waiting for a diamond plate to arrive in the mail, but in the meantime, can I use a nagura to chamfer the waterstone edges?

I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future!


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 24, 2016)

milkbaby said:


> Thanks for the comments and advice! I am looking at some old carbon Forgecrafts on ebay. I will continue to goof around with my cheapo stainless but keep in mind the issues everybody here has brought up.
> 
> I'm waiting for a diamond plate to arrive in the mail, but in the meantime, can I use a nagura to chamfer the waterstone edges?
> 
> I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future!



Don't abuse your nagura. It isn't coarse enough for the job. If you can't wait for your diamond plate, wrap some 120 wet/dry around a wood block and chamfer with that.


----------



## frog13 (Aug 24, 2016)

idemhj said:


> +1. I started my sharpening career (well, career may be exaggerating a little) on cheap stainless 'practice knives' and nearly gave up because it was an exercise in futility. But I thought, no way, and gave it a shot at one of my carbons, and wow... I could actually get it sharp. The 'practice on cheap stainless-school' is, in my opinion and from my experience, just wrong. Dare to be brave, you will not ruin your knife


I agree, dare to be brave! I tried the cheap stainless, too, figured I would never get it. Bit the bullet and pulled out one of the VG-10 Tojiros ..... ok, better than the cheap stainless. Got even braver, the Tanaka Blue #2, didn't know if I was getting better or if it was just easier to sharpen but I could shave with this one. Went back to the cheap stainless and yes, I was better but so much work for a cheap knife. Now I sharpen all my "good" knives on stones, the cheaper ones like our Cuisinarts go the to WorkSharp belt. Gives me more time to hone my new White #1 Fujiwara. :thumbsup:


----------



## Benuser (Aug 24, 2016)

Neglected blades are always far to fat behind the edge and are in need of serious thinning prior to any sharpening. So are most vintages, and there are other serious problems to be expected as well: protruding heels, recurve bellies. Get a new simple carbon steel blade, in Europe I would suggest a simple Herder. No personal experience here with Chicago cutlery, but IIRC they offer decent simple carbons.


----------



## foody518 (Aug 24, 2016)

I might honestly look at something like a new cheap Old Hickory knife to practice on. It will probably be thick behind the edge. But I got a vintage Lamson off eBay to mess with, and as Benuser mentions above about some vintages, it needed to be thinned and also had knife profile issues that made it a poor knife to actually use on a cutting board without hours on the coarse stones. Much of the initial 1-2 hours metal I was grinding off from the edge and trying to shape a bevel with felt crunchy or otherwise kind of wrong on the stones. I suspect lots of steeling in its lifetime then an attempt to refinish for eBay sale by some guy with a belt grinder who overheated the edge


----------



## Benuser (Aug 24, 2016)

Sorry, I meant precisely Old Hickory, no Chicago stuff. Thanks Foody!


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Aug 24, 2016)

daveb said:


> I will argue that it can in fact be detrimental to practice for "real" knives by sharpening "cheap stainless" blades. The thickness at the edge, the soft, unresponsive steel and other characteristics of crap steel will have you practicing with to much pressure, to much sharpening to see any results. And should you arrive at any sort of an edge you will lose it the first time you stress it with even light duty use.
> 
> I'll also argue the premise that you can "ruin" a quality knife with neophyte sharpening. You would have to something very wrong, with a lot of pressure, for a long time, to permanently affect the latent qualities of a knife.
> 
> If you must "practice", I suggest you spend some time on the bay searching for vintage carbon and pick up a $20.00 Forgecraft - the boning knife and breaking knife are excellent blades - or something similar that strikes your fancy. At the end of the day you'll have a functional knife.



I agree it can be challenging to sharpen crappy stainless when one is learning to sharpen, specially if one starts using too fine a stone to set the bevel. Better, if possible, to start on carbon. On the other hand, i noticed that it became easy once you set the bevel with more obtuse angles (acute angles won't hold anyway) and used coarser stones. That happened for the vast majority of crappy knives i sharpened for friends and family, with a few exceptions (those needing thinning, for instance, is another matter).
At least for me, the sharpening on crappy stainless, helped to improve my muscle memory and gave me more confidence to start sharpening on good blades. As a side bonus, i found out there are cheap stainless (less then 10 dollars a knife) that can be much better at sharpening and holding the edge than others at the same price level.


----------



## JaVa (Aug 24, 2016)

Get a cheap and cheerful Tojiro Kurouchi from metalmaster to practice on. That's 35$ for a petty or 40$ for a santoku. If you ruin it that won't brake the bank and if you don't, well it's a fun, useful and sharp beater made of carbon W1. Very reactive though. It's easier to start with a shorter knife. 

I got a Tojiro KU nakiri just to mess around with. I've tried different sharpening angless, thinning, different forced patinas and different handless on it. I've done all sorts of things to it and it still just keeps going strong.

Or get the Tanaka Kurouchi B2 180cm gyuto for 50$. That's a seriously great knife and cheap enough to play around with.

Like others have said carbon is definitely a more encouraging place to start. Playing around with gummy ss knives from mass market brands can get tiring. They can be a little stubborn to not getting sharp, difficult to deburr, they'll never get that sharp anyway and won't stay sharp for long.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 24, 2016)

JaVa said:


> Get a cheap and cheerful Tojiro Kurouchi from metalmaster to practice on. That's 35$ for a petty or 40$ for a santoku. If you ruin it that won't brake the bank and if you don't, well it's a fun, useful and sharp beater made of carbon W1. Very reactive though. It's easier to start with a shorter knife.
> 
> I got a Tojiro KU nakiri just to mess around with. I've tried different sharpening angless, thinning, different forced patinas and different handless on it. I've done all sorts of things to it and it still just keeps going strong.
> 
> Or get the Tanaka Kurouchi B2 180cm gyuto for 50$. That's a seriously great knife and cheap enough to play around with.



I believe the tojiro is white 2 but the grind on the one I tried was the worst of any knife I have ever seen in my life...the blade road was like a roller coaster...would not have been a joy to learn to sharpen on...

OTOH, I like your recommendation for the Tanaka...and it will be a good knife to learn to thin on as well. :thumbsup:


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 24, 2016)

And after that, check the supermarket flyers periodically for inexpensive VG5/VG10 damascus. These are challenging .... bochos.... to sharpen (and need a different approach... I still think microbevel is king on VGs. Slightly-advanced beginner myself) compared to carbon, but at least you get some bloody usage out of them afterwards...

Oh, and experiment with stropping media for refreshing. I still like unloaded newspaper (it is comparably vegetarian, and it is exactly NOT an explicit abrasive) at least ten layers thick. Here in Germany, the weekly flyers to check for good inexpensive knives conveniently come wrapped in a fresh strop 

...

"the blade road was like a roller coaster" ... are these actually hand-ground? wow...

...

I'd leave belt grinders to the experienced people that recommended them. 

...

Consider Kiwi/Kom-Kom for practice too ... the edge is thin, the knife is cheap, the steel likely used is among the worst in edge retention among all steels considered tool/knife steels... but can *take* a respectable edge.

...

Learn measuring edge angles with laser pointer, cardboard box and protractor (hint: halve the measured reflected angle!), and do such a measurement on a factory-fresh knife before messing with it, to give an idea what edge the manufacturer puts on it. Ceterum Censeo: Use a real laser pointer that you'd use in a conference room, NOT the souped up kind - you are reflecting it off metal, and even temporarily blinding yourself or starting a fire in a darkened room with a sharp edge nearby sucks.


----------



## JaVa (Aug 25, 2016)

chinacats said:


> I believe the tojiro is white 2 but the grind on the one I tried was the worst of any knife I have ever seen in my life...the blade road was like a roller coaster...would not have been a joy to learn to sharpen on...
> 
> OTOH, I like your recommendation for the Tanaka...and it will be a good knife to learn to thin on as well. :thumbsup:



Yeah, my memory seemed to fail me on that one. The Tojiro is definitely W2. 
Hmmm, do you mean with the rollercoaster blade road that there's shallow overgrinds or just an uneven shoulder line? I can ofcourse only talk about my experience and I've understood there's a lot of variability with them hence they're not that popular, the bevel on mine is straight as on arrow and there's no over grinds. The shoulder line and blade face are a bit wavy though, but that doesn't affect it's performance. :scratchhead:

And yes the Tanaka is completaly on another level and maybe should not be mentioned in a same thread with the Tojiro. :lol2:


----------



## Tobes (Aug 25, 2016)

Learn measuring edge angles with laser pointer, cardboard box and protractor (hint: halve the measured reflected angle!), and do such a measurement on a factory-fresh knife before messing with it, to give an idea what edge the manufacturer puts on it. [/QUOTE]

Hopefully not too OT, but I would seriously like to hear more about how this is supposed to work.


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 25, 2016)

See how the CATRA goniometer works... the same setup can be improvised. Stick knife through inverted box to fix it in place, send a beam straight against the edge, so that it is visible on the cardboard (darkened room). Mark the reflection lines you get with a pen, and after removing the knife, draw a straight line through the slit left by the knife. Put the reference point of the protractor exactly where the apex was, measure angle between the base line (through the slit) and the reflection lines. Divide these angles by two.
Tested that method on knives with known angles, surprisingly accurate if working cleanly.


----------



## chinacats (Aug 25, 2016)

...or you could just lay the knife on the stones and follow the original geometry as you feel it...


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 25, 2016)

...equally valid, if there is a tall enough bevel to do that. I tend to keep a collection of angled wedges (not using them as an "online" guide when sharpening but to set up) and find it helpful to know the number...

BTW, two other things that got me a couple times (if they make me look like an idiot, maybe somebody else be spared that fate): 

-Visual perception of an angle depends on perspective - this can get you unequal angles on front vs back, enough to become problematic on very keen edges (ended up with 10 vs 7 on the Takamura once - ouch).

-An already very thin edge (had that mess with my usuba) can build up a very big burr annoyingly quick - I assume because the edge itself isn't very stiff and will cushion the burr enough so it doesn't break off. Also, these burrs feel kind of burr-y from both sides to add to the confusion...


----------



## Tobes (Aug 26, 2016)

Might not be the most practical approach for a pro cook and experienced sharpener but as an amateur hobbyist and professional scientist I quite appreciate its nerdyness and precision! Thanks for the detailed explanation!


----------



## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 26, 2016)

@Tobes this is about assessing a new knife one time, not about constantly monitoring


----------



## Tobes (Aug 26, 2016)

Sure, still sounds like a good bit of nerdy fun!


----------

