# stones, why bother?



## citizenY (Aug 26, 2014)

since i have started to sharpen by hand, i got a set of 3 stones (low, medium and high), and worked on those...

until recently i discovered whet/dry paper, i am wondering if there is any real advantage , for a home user that is, to still be using stones?

from what i have found the paper way has some very clear advantages:

1. it seems to cut a LOT faster than the stones, with less pressure applied and fewer passes.
2. CHEAP, a high grit sheet, in a local store costs about 1$, and its been months since i got it, and i am using it regularly on 3 knives, and it still holds up well.
3. 0 maintenance, does not require any flattening, just glue a new sheet when the old one is worn out.
4. not sure if its the paper, or just because i am applying less pressure, but the results seems to be much more even along the edge (same sharpness all the way).

the only disadvantage i find so far, is that i am able to find any paper above P2500 in any of the local stores, but i am sure that i will be able to find some if i searched more seriously..


----------



## mistascoopa (Aug 26, 2014)

Curious to know what 3 stones you have? Sandpaper cutting faster than quality stones? Not sure about than one...
It definitely sounds like the cheaper initial investment though, but where is the fun in sharpening on sandpaper?

Please don't take my comments in a negative light. It does sound like you are getting your best results. I'm just skeptical as I have never tried it.


----------



## Asteger (Aug 26, 2014)

Good stuff. I'm sure, with the right technique, there are countless ways to sharpen. 

Which brand of paper have you used?


----------



## LKH9 (Aug 26, 2014)

Only the finest grit of silicon carbide paper is something good for the final honing/ finishing. When you need to sharpen a totally dull blade, sandpaper is crap, you will destroy the sandpaper in no time. Get a cheap SILICON CARBIDE STONE and you will see how crap sandpaper is.

Why bother with sandpaper??


----------



## citizenY (Aug 26, 2014)

mistascoopa said:


> It definitely sounds like the cheaper initial investment though, but where is the fun in sharpening on sandpaper?



true, the stones were cheap, 25$ for the low grit 250# if i recall, but, if you compare surface area, 25$ will get 25 sheets of paper, each one with 5 times the surface area, which is a LOT for home use....

as for the brand, i will need to check when i get home, but i don't think its anything from the "high end" all the local shops seem to carry the same stuff, and don't really offer any variety.


----------



## citizenY (Aug 26, 2014)

hi LKH9.

the silicone carbide wet/dry, comes in grits as low as 120 from what i could find.

i never really brought any of my knives to the point of "really dull", i am currently only using the P1000 and P2000 grits.
the P2000 i use more frequently mostly for weekly/bi-weekly touch ups on my gyuto, few passes on each side with very low pressure and its back razor sharpness.
surprisingly the paper also does not ware out as quickly as i though it would (only when wet, when dry its useless).

and the P1000 really does such a great job on the few occasions when i use it, i don't find any need at the moment to get anything lower than that.

when comparing to my 1K stone, each use when aiming for the same results, would require more pressure and more passes, and always resulting in a small belly/curve in the stone surface, that would then need to be flattened again.

I suppose that on a larger scaled operation, stones might make more sense, but for basic home use, i really don't see what are the benefits of the stone.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Aug 26, 2014)

Not a new idea, and it can work well. A KF member, Curtis Chung, did a good video of this technique five years ago. You do have to be careful not to catch the paper with the edge. A stone can be flattened to remove a gouge, but paper can't be. I found that you really need the granite reference plate for height.

[video=youtube;4--HIDogrc8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4--HIDogrc8[/video]


----------



## citizenY (Aug 26, 2014)

OK

so this guy took it to whole new level....

i am not even trying any edge leading passes like he does, only edge tailing, so no risk in cutting through the paper.

and i just glue the paper on a left over piece of formica laminated wood that seemed very flat when a set it against my kitchen countertop (which is my reference to flat).
although i saw on the web someone suggesting to glue the paper to some ceramic bathroom tiles, which i plan on trying, got a few lying somewhere.

oh.... and i don't gloves....should I?


----------



## Mucho Bocho (Aug 26, 2014)

"Wide Bevels Are Beautiful" quote of the day. 

Love it


----------



## LKH9 (Aug 26, 2014)

A good quality fine oil stone is a better choice when you don't want waterstones. I use that with soapy water and wipe off the particles with a sponge wet with soap. I personally don't like waterstone, expensive and too fragile. If you don't drop the oil stone and break it into pieces, it should almost last forever.

The only merit I see in sandpaper is when you need to bring your sharpening gear out and not have to worry about breaking your precious stones. They also weigh nothing. But for frequent home use, it's not economic in my eyes.


----------



## Zwiefel (Aug 26, 2014)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Not a new idea, and it can work well. A KF member, Curtis Chung, did a good video of this technique five years ago. You do have to be careful not to catch the paper with the edge. A stone can be flattened to remove a gouge, but paper can't be. I found that you really need the granite reference plate for height.



I saw this video a few years ago, it's what got me interested in sharpening. Always wondered if I'd run into the guy that did it, or someone who knows him 



Mucho Bocho said:


> "Wide Bevels Are Beautiful" quote of the day.
> 
> Love it



I think I said that on FaceBook one day last week. So true.


----------



## 99Limited (Aug 26, 2014)

If you prefer using sandpaper and it works for you, which it must, try some 3M Automotive sandpaper. Use their wet/dry paper and make up a solution of water and a little dish soap in a spray bottle to use as lubrication. You don't have to spray the paper so much to make it soppy wet, but you want it pretty wet. You can then finish with some Micro Mesh paper which is really fine.

There's lots of roads that lead you to a sharp knife. Take the one that suits you best.


----------



## cadberry (Aug 26, 2014)

I have started using a cheap double sided stone from the hardware store for the initial sharpening and it yields good results and will last longer than similar grit sand paper. But it's been made very clear here that you can sharpen with many different things....and then strop with cardboard. good luck

Anthony


----------



## citizenY (Aug 27, 2014)

Asteger said:


> Good stuff. I'm sure, with the right technique, there are countless ways to sharpen.
> 
> Which brand of paper have you used?



its a brand called klingspor, made in the US apparently.


----------



## bahamaroot (Aug 27, 2014)

Why waste money on sandpaper, Murry Carter sharpened a knife on a concrete block and stropped on a brick.


----------



## citizenY (Aug 28, 2014)

bahamaroot said:


> Why waste money on sandpaper, Murry Carter sharpened a knife on a concrete block and stropped on a brick.



yes, but how does he flatten the concrete block afterwards...?


----------



## mistascoopa (Aug 28, 2014)

citizenY said:


> yes, but how does he flatten the concrete block afterwards...?



Move on to the next concrete block. lol


----------



## WillC (Aug 28, 2014)

Why not as a start and to learn on. 
But a step up to good quality ceramics stones. And a diamond plate to keep them flat is far more convenient, controllable. (You can't build slurry with micro mesh or wet n drys and a stone will always give better "feel" for the pressure and angle your using). 
Good set of stones will last you for many many years of consistent cutting speed. As opposed to papers which will never be perfectly consistent unless you replace them with each use. How much will you spend on micro mesh and abrasives over the next 20 years?


----------



## XooMG (Aug 28, 2014)

I've no problems with using paper for a good edge, but I do better with stones most of the time. For doing a decent convexed kireba with moderately high polish, I like paper, micromesh, and lapping film on a soft substrate. I'll take a semi-mirror or mirror kireba (blade path) over a kasumi finish every time.


----------



## citizenY (Aug 28, 2014)

WillC said:


> (You can't build slurry with micro mesh or wet n drys and a stone will always give better "feel" for the pressure and angle your using).



the fine grit paper (P2000) actually does create a nice slurry when used, but if the slurry is only to help give more cutting effect, than i find it is not that important, can't explain it, but paper really cuts very fast.
i got a few more sheets yesterday for a more robust setup (360,1000, 1500, 2000), i hope i will have some time over the weekend to play with it, and try a full progression from the lower grit to the highest.

as for the convex edge XooMG mentioned, i have found that if you mange to keep your sharpening skills somewhere between bad to awful, like i do, you will get a convex edge on a flat surface a well :biggrin:


----------



## DaninMD (Aug 28, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> Only the finest grit of silicon carbide paper is something good for the final honing/ finishing. When you need to sharpen a totally dull blade, sandpaper is crap, you will destroy the sandpaper in no time. Get a cheap SILICON CARBIDE STONE and you will see how crap sandpaper is.
> 
> Why bother with sandpaper??



there are papers that are very well made, i dont have the name in front of me, but i have used them in the past to sharpen straight razors. if they are capable of putting a shaving edge on a razor they will work for a knife. there were a bunch of articles on badger and blade a couple years ago when i used to be on that site a lot. not a bad option, however, i prefer my stones esp. the natural stones just for the feel and aesthetics.


----------



## psfred (Aug 30, 2014)

Sandpaper will work fine, but there are things that stone do that sandpaper cannot. Waterstones release grit while in use, and especially in natural stones, this grit is friable and between the smaller particles and the rolling of loose grit between stationary grit in the stone and the moving blade produce a finish and edge more like a finer grit stone. Sandpaper may release some grit, but very much loose grit and there is no stationary grit.

Very hard high carbon steels are brittle, and soft composition waterstones cushion the abrasion of the grit particles. High pressure and large grit can easily cause very hard steel to chip and micro-crack, with the result that the final polished edge will chip out in use very rapidly. Not a problem with German steel type knives with RC hardness around 52-54, but anything harder than that needs extra care and light pressure. Since sandpaper is rather tightly bonded and essentially a single layer, you won't get the same effects, and soft substrate isn't the same thing -- that gives you a convex bevel whether you want it or not.

You can refresh the surface of a stone until there is no stone left. In the case of my Besters and King 300 Deluxe (different than the usual run of King clay binder stones) this means much longer than I'll be interested in using them, some are a decade old already and have only been flattened a couple times for knife use (more for woodworking tools). 

Sandpaper gets expensive when you have to use a couple sheets to refresh a bevel or fix a chip. A couple bucks doesn't sound like much until you start spending that much every time you sharpen knives, which for me is every couple months, more if you include sharpening knives for friends. Gets expensive quickly compared to a couple C-notes for a lifetime of sharpening.

On the plus side there is no flattening, nor worries about over-convex bevels from dished stones, and less mess (my old Naniwa SS 220 grit bleeds mud like crazy, so does my synthetic "blue aoto"). You can get ordinary kitchen knives quite sharp with paper. Japanese style very hard knives may be a different story.

Use sandpaper if it suits you, but I'd not reject good waterstones until you have tried them!

Peter


----------



## droshi (Aug 30, 2014)

I think sandpaper is cheap initially, but if you look at knife ownership long-term I think you'll find sandpaper to become expensive compared to quality stones, especially hard ones like shapton glass series. Kind of like inkjet vs laser printers.


----------



## citizenY (Aug 31, 2014)

droshi said:


> I think sandpaper is cheap initially, but if you look at knife ownership long-term I think you'll find sandpaper to become expensive compared to quality stones, especially hard ones like shapton glass series. Kind of like inkjet vs laser printers.



that's what i thought initially, and just got 1 sheet of 2K wet/dry to play with. it really surprised me how long this sheet lasts....
i use it for honing (glued to a flat piece of Formica on sandwich), so it gets used more than all the other lower grit stones/papers i have, and its been a few months and i am still with the same piece of sheet, and it is not showing any significant signs of wear.

i do own a set of stones (240,1K and 6K), but they just seem like a hassle to use now, since i am getting the same results with less fuss on the papers.

i did however, try to use some 360 grit paper this weekend and it was not very impressive, from i am seeing so far, i think i will stick with the 240 grit stone, but anything over 1K, stick with the paper sheets....


----------



## LKH9 (Aug 31, 2014)

So what I said is correct, it's only good for finishing or touch-ups.

I remember seeing a similar product by this https://www.razoredgesystems.com which you peel off the sheets and stick somewhere for honing. That product was discontinued recently.


----------



## citizenY (Aug 31, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> So what I said is correct, it's only good for finishing or touch-ups.
> 
> I remember seeing a similar product by this https://www.razoredgesystems.com which you peel off the sheets and stick somewhere for honing. That product was discontinued recently.



well i haven't experimented to much on the low grits, the one i got (the low grit 360), was from a different (made in china) manufacturer and felt and looked much cheaper that the higher (euro and US made) higher grits (1K, 1.5K and 2K)...
so i am not giving up yet 

i have tried on some 150 dry paper, and it cuts incredibly fast, but that is too high of a grit for me, and i don't see myself using it on anything but a very damaged edge.

what i plan on trying next, is to use some double sided tape (adhesive), to make replacing the paper even quicker.


----------



## LKH9 (Aug 31, 2014)

You gave me an idea of using fine silicon paper for honing box-cutter blades at my workplace where I can't afford to bring out my precious made-in-japan oil stone. The silicon papers available here are made in Korea.


----------



## citizenY (Aug 31, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> You gave me an idea of using fine silicon paper for honing box-cutter blades at my workplace where I can't afford to bring out my precious made-in-japan oil stone. The silicon papers available here are made in Korea.



that could be a practical solution, just don't try to use them dry, don't know why they call them "wet or dry" they are useless when dry....


----------



## LKH9 (Aug 31, 2014)

Sometimes they need to be used dry in certain situations where you cannot afford to wet the object you're sanding, but for honing blades, sure it MUST be wet or it will be clogged in no time. Use soapy water, it's the best.


----------



## icanhaschzbrgr (Aug 31, 2014)

citizenY said:


> that could be a practical solution, just don't try to use them dry, don't know why they call them "wet or dry" they are useless when dry....


I use them dry all the time for sanding handles  Works just fine.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Aug 31, 2014)

Sounds like you are getting results with the paper, edge trailing strokes are kinder to paper & stones.

I kind of agree with Peter don't reject quality stones until you have tried them. The Shapton Pro Splash & Goes are not too expensive, stupid easy to use, come in a plastic case you can use as a base. They don't dish readily. Sounds like as home cook & doing mostly touchups on finer paper a 2K Shapton Pro can do that with less fuss.

Not knocking your technique though whatever works cannot argue with that.


----------



## citizenY (Sep 1, 2014)

keithsaltydog said:


> The Shapton Pro Splash & Goes are not too expensive, stupid easy to use, come in a plastic case you can use as a base.



yes, i have been looking into those a while ago, and they really seem great.
but since i cant help being very "budget oriented" (in everything, not just knives), i just cant seem to justify spending 200$~ (or more) on stones, when for the same amount i can get an other great knife + a life time supply of paper, that will bring me the same results...

i totally understand and respect people who enjoy sharpening and see it as part of the hobby and if i were one i would consider spending such amounts on it, for me sharpening is mostly the means to sharp knife (a little fun, perhaps) , and cooking with a good blade properly sharpened is what i enjoy...

i am these days "hunting" for my new knife with a 200$ budget (which sounds cheap compared to the stuff i am seeing here :biggrin, and i really don't see myself giving that up for better sharpening gear.


----------



## LKH9 (Sep 1, 2014)

Budget, yes, the only stones I actually have are cheap silicon carbide rough/medium and a very fine unknown-grit oil stone(said to be the finest sand available in Japan), and then strop with aluminium oxide paste(Autosol), if needed. The shipping costs of the stones can be more expensive than the stone itself, I can't afford that. I have a century-old rough waterstone here, probably from China many many years ago, I don't like waterstone, too messy.

In my opinion, if you're not cutting sashimi, you don't need that level of sharpness, it's overkill. As long as the edge can shave hair or push cut paper quietly, it's useable. Most ordinary folks have not even experience that kind of hair-splitting sharpness, which seems common to us.


----------



## citizenY (Sep 1, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> n my opinion, if you're not cutting sashimi, you don't need that level of sharpness



yes, i too own an ambiguous brand of 6K honing stone, just getting some slurry on that is quite a bit of work, and then it still takes ages to get some noticeable result.

the hair shaving test is not such a good indication, i have had knifes that shaved hair after being sharpened in a 10$ IKEA pull through sharpener.
coming of the 2K paper, they also shave hair, but its a different shave all together, delicate like a razor, you can barely feel the metal touch the skin...

also, for reasons that i can not explain, the 2K paper even though marked 2000, leaves a hazy mirror polish you would expect from higher grits.
(the kind that looks like a mirror from most angles, except a narrow angle where you can see the scratches).

(i never thought having such an abundance of arm hair would be useful some day :laugh:....)


----------



## LKH9 (Sep 1, 2014)

You know, I've totally lost all my arm hairs, on both hands. I've no where to shave except for my ugly legs. Have you ever used metal polish compound like chromium oxide / aluminium oxide?

About the shaving test, the shave must feel comfortable to the skin. If it hurts, then it's not refined enough, and it must be able to shave from both sides of the edge. If one edge can shave while the opposite side can't, it's due to burrs/wire edge.


----------



## citizenY (Sep 1, 2014)

LKH9 said:


> Have you ever used metal polish compound like chromium oxide / aluminium oxide



haven't tried stropping yet, last visit to the supermarket i looked at the metal polishing compounds, but it was all for silver\gold, to soft...
might pop to one of the local hardware shops this Friday, and see what they have to offer.
thing is with most of these compounds, they will tell you what's inside (like alumina oxide), but its pretty hard to tell what is the particle size.
with your experience with autosol, how fine would you say the grit is...?


----------



## citizenY (Sep 1, 2014)

oh, and as to the arm hair, i guess have been "blessed" with plenty of "monkey genes", it grows faster than i can shave it :biggrin:


----------



## LKH9 (Sep 1, 2014)

It says ALUMINA in the ingredient, when I searched the net, it's aluminium oxide's trade name. I don't know how fine it is, but I can only maximum go 3 passes on the strop, it cuts into metal like butter and you can polish steel into mirror finish with it.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 1, 2014)

Just be very careful not to breathe any of the aluminum oxide dust. You do not want that stuff in your lungs.


----------

