# Natural Stones vs Synthetic Stones



## JohnF (Jun 23, 2015)

First off, thank you KKF for helping me decide on some great new knives. I recently got a a 270mm Sakai Yusuke Swedish SS X-hardened Wa-Gyuto and then my GF surprised me with the other knife I was looking at in a 180mm Mizuno Tanrenjo Hontanren Aogami #2 Santoku. 

Now that I have two new beautiful knives, I wanted to upgrade my sharpening setup. Currently I have a 1000/6000 King combo stone which did an adequate job on my old Shun Classics. I've been reading the forum, in which most people seem to chose between Chosera/Shapton Glass/Gesshin Soaker synthetic stones, but have also been really interested in the JNS natural stones. I've read through all the JNSwiki info, but still am not sure whether I should upgrade to synthetics, natural or a mixture of both. 

In addition to the knives, I already had, I just inherited a box of approx 20 knives from my grandmother who recently passed away, which has a hodgepodge mix of Carbon/SS Japanese and French knives. All of which need a TON of work as she hasnt really been cooking in the past 10-15 years. All the edges were dull and the carbons rusty. 

With that said, what should I be looking for? I dont have a flattening stone (used sandpaper a few times to flatten King stone) and have been using a wet towel under the stone. I originally wanted to spend around $200...but after research, I don't think that will happen.

What I'd like to get is:
Finishing stone - synthetic or natural
Flattening stone - Atoma Diamond (do I need for a natural stone? and which grit works?)
Nagura - if I get a natural stone
Low Grit stone - thinking of the Shapton Glass 500 (or can the Atoma also be used as a low grit? does that prevent it from being used as a flattening stone?)

And then using my King 1000 grit until I get more $$$ for a new one. 

Also, what is the best way of removing rust from carbons? 

On a completely different topic, I've been using Epicurean cutting boards. Are these ok for Japanese knives or should I get an end grain ASAP? Also are side grain cutting boards ok? I have one of those too. Thank you all again in advance.


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## chinacats (Jun 23, 2015)

Buy a good flattening stone first...atoma is the standard, I have a JKI diamond that has held up very well so far and does a great job. 

You don't need nagura for most natural stones, and honestly you are probably better off finding a few synthetics you like before delving into the world of naturals. I'd keep the King for the 6k and ditch the 1k side as it's rather soft and tends to dish heavily...maybe pickup a 1-2k depending on what strikes your fancy. Depending on what you want to spend there are a few good options in the coarse range...I'm currently using a Cerax 320 from Stu @ Tools from Japan and like it, Jon (JKI) has a few coarse stones that people really like as well

Pics would help to determine the best way to remove the rust (is it just rust or heavy pitting?).

End grain is much more friendly to your knives than edge grain.

Cheers


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## JohnF (Jun 23, 2015)

(edited: picture broken)

Here is an example of one of the knives. Can anyone ID it also? There are a couple from that maker. 

Thanks for your reply. For the Atoma, which grit do you get for a flattening stone? 

As I am shopping for sharpening supplies and a cutting board, I would LIKE to stay under $400 for both. Budgeting around $125 for a board and about $85 (???) for the Atoma, it leaves about $200 for everything else. The Cerax 320 is a great price for a coarse stone. I would like to replace the King 6000, as for me it seems to not sharpen well without more pressure than I should need.


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## havox07 (Jun 23, 2015)

The atoma 140 is the one often recommended. Although you can go cheaper with something like an iwood from tools from Japan. I am considering going this route personally as it is 50 percent cheaper. 

As for other stones there are the tried and true Bester 1200 and Suehiro Rika 5000 which are often recommended and can be had for around 30 a piece on tools from Japan.

Sorry I can't recommend any course stones as I only have the two I just wrote about.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 23, 2015)

+1 for Atoma, I have the 140 and 400.

WRT the epicurean cutting boards, they are basically sawdust and glue, not bashing the product line as I appreciate the "green" aspect. I've read that with a lot of use you can get flakes coming out, I think they aren't targeted at the high performance J-knife market? I'd recommend getting wood, I have used my Misono Swedish carbon honesuki on a plastic board but there isn't much contact. Have also used my old Moritaka AS Supreme on plastic, it's not the end of the world but not ideal. Wouldn't let my nicer knives near plastic though.


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## daveb (Jun 23, 2015)

I'll start with your easy questions.

Epicurean boards. I own and use several. I do have an edge grain (is edge grain what you are calling side grain?) Boos and an end grain Boardsmith - both great boards that I enjoy using. But when cutting proteins I drop an Epicurean on them, do the cutting then the Epicurean goes into the sink. If the protein is chicken then the board goes into the dishwasher. They are light, readily portable, easy to clean, don't look bad. They are not the best surface for the knives but the boards won't damage edges. If I was prioritizing spending I would not drop coin on a hardwood board, especially if you already have an edge grain hardwood.

Flattening stones. Simply put they come in three flavors (that I'm aware of). The Atoma 140 is the classic "go to", JKI diamond plate, I have this one, serves very well and the DMT XXC diamond plate, a less desirable but feasible choice. There are DIY variations that include dry wall screen, sandpaper etc. Sometimes saving money isn't worth it.

Naturals. JNats as they're known here. Nice to use especially if you enjoy sharpening, tactile feedback, tasting swarf, etc. A finishing stone is a good place to start with JNats should you want to explore these. But one "good" one will eat half of your budget. A very good one will set you way back. Again if I were prioritizing spending I would not go there. Yet. 

So you're down a hundred bucks and you have a flattener. Now it's a simple question of a two or three stone set. A typical start is a course, med and fine but with good choices you could readily start with two. 

JKI has some excellent choices with the Gesshin series, G400, G2K and maybe a 6K finisher. A G400 and a 1K/6K combo would also work. JNS has my favorite low grit stone, JNS 300, and their synthetic Aoto. A value package is the Bestor 500, Bestor 1200 and Suehiro 5K. (I don't like the 500 even a little bit, and the 1200 and 5K serve me best on stainless).

Finally the rust on carbon. What works for me is fine steel wool and a product called "Break Free" Work the easy crap off first then leave the knife damp with Break Free overnight. Repeat.

Good luck.


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## Ruso (Jun 23, 2015)

I just got Atoma 140 for the Fathers day and man, I dig it a lot. I used JKI flattening plate, sandpaper, drywall screen, balcony and cinder block. I can say that Atoma is much better then those. JKI diamond is a decent contender if money is tight.
For the coarse stone I would consider JNS 300 or JKI 400s if I would buy one now. ATM I use Shapton pro 320 and it does its job.
No experience with JNats, however I suggest starting with some synthetic for all three stones and see how you like it since if will be a cheaper and possible less painful learning curve.


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## panda (Jun 24, 2015)

don't bother with naturals until you're VERY comfortable with using whetstones in the first place
first priority: atoma 140
second: 1k stone
third: 3k stone
fourth: korin hi-soft small cutting board

if i were in the market for new stones i'd probably either get gesshin 1200 & 3000, or jns 800 & synthetic red aoto


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## JohnF (Jun 24, 2015)

Wow, you guys are awesome! Thanks for such a bevy of information. So in short, I wont be looking at natural stones (for now)...and I'll put cutting board on my backburner as well (not literally). 

It seems as though the Gesshin stones are the way to go for a finishing stone. The 3000 grit stone is in stock, but the 6000 grit isnt. I am a little confused as to whether I should wait for the 6000, or get the 3000 now. Although I may save a little money on the 1000/6000 combo, I would rather spend a little more and get each individual (at any time, please correct me if I am mistaken as I've had a lot of conflicting information even amongst people I know personally). 

I am leaning on ordering an Atoma 140, Bestor 1200 and Cerax 320 from Tools of Japan...and waiting for the Gesshin 6000 from JKI. Which would be give or take $260-270 with shipping. Would that be a set that I wouldn't be looking at upgrading any time too soon? I am more the type to just get top of the line and be done with it. 

Or would waiting for the Gesshin set on JKI (400, 2000, 6000) to come back in stock and getting just the Atoma 140 now be the way to go? That would be give or take $350 with shipping. 

Keep in mind, in the future, I'd like to eventually move to natural stones. I actually find sharpening knives quite relaxing and have taken hobby in offering to sharpen friends and family knives for free for practice. 

DaveB, thanks for the rust removal advice, thats a done deal.


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## daveb (Jun 24, 2015)

Now that you've thought out your requirements a little, a phone call to Jon would be a good use of time. The G400 and G2K would be a great start. He may be able to tell you when he expects to have the 6K back in stock.

I don't know the Cerax so can offer neither good nor bad about it.


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## CoqaVin (Jun 24, 2015)

I just got the Cerax, when I get it ill let you know how it is, I'm generally a natural guy too, but naturals don't seem to go that low, and sometimes s***t happens and you have to repair a blade


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## Butters (Jun 24, 2015)

Can I recommend retailers in a thread? Or is a pm the way to go? 

Sorry - I'm not sure of the etiquette here.

There's a good sale on at the moment, on Atoma plates and Sigma Power stones. Both of which could help the OP.


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## daveb (Jun 24, 2015)

Butters said:


> Can I recommend retailers in a thread? Or is a pm the way to go?
> 
> Sorry - I'm not sure of the etiquette here.
> 
> There's a good sale on at the moment, on Atoma plates and Sigma Power stones. Both of which could help the OP.



Thanks for asking. 

You may certainly recommend off-the-reservation (non sponsoring) retailers here, esp when they offer something unique that will benefit others on the site. Links are also allowed except those that trigger the built in filters. I suggest comparing the "good sale" prices (to include shipping) with those offered by our sponsoring retailers for the same product.. 

Of course if the topic is under one of the sponsoring retailers forums it would be a little tacky to recommend a competitor's product. 

The sponsoring retailers and craftsman largely make this site possible. Good etiquette asks that this relationship be respected.


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## aboynamedsuita (Jun 24, 2015)

Dave M may still have Atomas (and other stones) in stock if the sale is still ongoing


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## Butters (Jun 24, 2015)

Thanks daveb. I can only imagine how many hours go into running this site so didn't want to upset the sponsors and by extension your potential to earn from all those hours.

OP - there's a sale at Japan Tool right now on Atoma plates ($58usd) and Sigma Power 1000 stones ($28usd). It's a low tech site but he is legit. I just picked up a sigma 8k very cheaply.

A sigma 1000 would be a good pair to your king 6000. I'd stick with the sandpaper for flattening right now, and save for a good 5000 grit stone. Once you've got a good 1000 and 5000 then think about lapping plates and a coarse stone (220-400). Then maybe think about a natural finisher to follow the 5000.


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## JohnF (Jun 24, 2015)

Thank you all for the help again. 

DaveB, I actually sent an email to Jon at JKI right after my last post. I am pretty sold on the Gesshin 6000. Even if I have to wait a little, it shouldnt be a problem since I have the King 1000/6000 combo for now. 

Butters, I took a look on Japan-Tool.com and don't see the sale on the Atoma plates. Is that the right site?


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## Butters (Jun 25, 2015)

It's a weird site. From the home page you have to click through to shop page. He could use a good developer and e-commerce platform but I think it's a part time gig. 

The plates are here http://www.japan-tool.com/zc/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=43_63_65


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## krx927 (Jun 25, 2015)

Butters said:


> It's a weird site. From the home page you have to click through to shop page. He could use a good developer and e-commerce platform but I think it's a part time gig.
> 
> The plates are here http://www.japan-tool.com/zc/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=43_63_65



Thank you very much for the info. I just ordered it


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## Butters (Jun 25, 2015)

Happy to help.

He's delivered from Japan to the U.K in 5 days before and I think it's a good, honest operation. I should think the standard small web-only shop caveats apply however. He's cheap because there are no overheads and an implied caveat emptor. He has told me I can return anything but I've never needed to test the policy (though that in itself is a good thing).

If you want the same time zone & immediate communication, top flight QC, after sales service and iron clad guarantees then a bricks and mortar place may be a better bet, though marginally more expensive. There is nothing like that near me so I don't get to choose.


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## chinacats (Jun 25, 2015)

Butters said:


> Happy to help.
> 
> He's delivered from Japan to the U.K in 5 days before and I think it's a good, honest operation. I should think the standard small web-only shop caveats apply however. He's cheap because there are no overheads and an implied caveat emptor. He has told me I can return anything but I've never needed to test the policy (though that in itself is a good thing).
> 
> If you want the same time zone & immediate communication, top flight QC, after sales service and iron clad guarantees then a bricks and mortar place may be a better bet, though marginally more expensive. There is nothing like that near me so I don't get to choose.



I enjoy ordering from Stu, but read the fine print...he may not ship right away because he has another job and sometimes it is a few weeks before shipping.


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## Asteger (Jun 25, 2015)

A few comments here about vendors and the support they give. Japan Tool was a vendor in the past for a while, for what it's worth, but in a quiet way without some of the usual hullabaloo.

Yes, I think Stu/Stuart just works on sales part-time while attending to other things and a family, but he's known as being honest, and in my case very considerate, if not always immediate and prompt. He seems to be known amongst tool-types, and isn't necessarily a knife nut.

His prices are not far off the best prices in Japan, and probably superior to foreign-based sellers. I'd go further and say that, because it's a part-time thing for him and he doesn't make much of it, then you're more likely to get the best deal.

For another quiet Japan-based seller, check out Metalmaster.

Also, just a late word on the original question about naturals vs synths: certainly synths are the standard for 99% of people, but if you imagine long ago when naturals were and then the transition to synths you might think of things differently. I use synths a bit, but got naturals early on and so really learnt to sharpen well with these not synths, as opposed to most people. What annoys me about synths is the soaking and constant flattening/lapping needed. I like the cheaper synth prices, for the most part, and yes naturals can be slower and less predictable too. Still, I'm used to just pulling out a stone and using it, and find synths and their care annoying.


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## CoqaVin (Jun 25, 2015)

Asteger since you are quite the Natural guy, I just found a stone on that site that intrigued me this one any good : http://www.japan-tool.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=43_3&products_id=369


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## Asteger (Jun 25, 2015)

CoqaVin said:


> Asteger since you are quite the Natural guy, I just found a stone on that site that intrigued me this one any good : http://www.japan-tool.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=43_3&products_id=369



Sorry to the OP and all for the tangent: yes, had a look. My first reaction was that it looks quite thin, has some cracks and therefore might be unstable if not mounted well. However, it if performs well and you don't mind wooden bases, etc, then it could be great. JNS sells thicker Hakka (remember 'kiita/ironomo' is only a description of colour) for more, say $450 now, but I think the ones M really recommends are more expensive than that, at around $600 last time I checked, which is more than I'd pay for sure. Who knows, if you're willing to sacrifice some thickness and stability this one could be good; you'd be relying on the seller's recommendation, of course. A quck look on the JT site (been a while) shows, to me, that his prices are okay, but not the cheapest. 

It's true, Hakka tomae are very knife-friendly. Unfortunately, they're hard to come by in and out of Japan.


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## Butters (Jun 25, 2015)

Asteger said:


> I use synths a bit, but got naturals early on and so really learnt to sharpen well with these not synths, as opposed to most people. What annoys me about synths is the soaking and constant flattening/lapping needed. I like the cheaper synth prices, for the most part, and yes naturals can be slower and less predictable too. Still, I'm used to just pulling out a stone and using it, and find synths and their care annoying.


 
I never thought about it this way, and I imagine whatever you start with you'll get used to. I was advised to start on synths and got a king 1000/6000 before graduating to a 4 stone set of 'proper' stones. I have only recently taken the plunge into naturals and am already getting the feeling it will be an expensive and slow learning curve. There's plenty of paths to a sharp knife so the OP should choose whatever he feels comfortable and interested in. If I could start again then going natural from the off would certainly be more interesting. 

Likely more expensive too, but then if I just wanted a sharp knife and nothing more I'd have stuck with the king combo. There's some other need being serviced by geeking out on sharpness and stones.


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## chinacats (Jun 25, 2015)

Asgteger, very valid point about soaking stones...the newer splash and go have come a long way and yet still not quite as nice as the soakers. I have mostly gone to naturals myself but I believe that it is much easier to develop good technique on synthetics and then make the move to naturals in due time--I say this mainly because of the variability of natural stones.

BTW, what I said about Stu and shipping was not a knock, just wanted to point out that even he states on his site that sometimes it takes a while and in my experience that is true. Overall, I really think he is a top notch vendor.


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## Asteger (Jun 25, 2015)

In my case, with T-from-J, there was a bit of a screw up with his local post office (I've lived in Japan, dealt with the post, understand) and his own mistake (not anticipating, but not a complaint from me at all) and he sorted it out very well. Nothing big to report.

Chinacats - I'm not sure if there's a diff developing technique on nat or synth stones. Actually, wait, it can certainly be different and you'll probably employ more techniques on a nat than a synth, and so be more flexible. Unless a synth is dished, it'll be pretty predictable and uniform. When I bought a few Chosera half a year ago, I was a bit shocked how easy they were to use. Seemed great, but almost anti-climax.

Yeah, most of us would rather invest in knives and don't want a huge collection of stones around. Me, I'll have to figure out a way to sell some stones and buy more knives in the future, before moving home next year or so. I do like splash&go synths at lower grits. JNS 300 is pretty good, though I also like Wakayama (often mis-called 'Omura') at that range too for S&G.


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## JohnF (Jun 25, 2015)

I dont think any of this is a tangent from my original post, it's all great information. 

I also ordered an Atoma 140 from Japan-Tool as it is a great sale price. I did happen to see the fine print about shipping and am not too worried as I am not in a huge rush to get it as I recently flattened my King stone with sandpaper. 

For me, all this information led me to decide to wait for the Gesshin stone set from JKI, as Jon sent back a response to my email that the 6000S should be back in stock soon. I would like to get into natural stones eventually, but having a great set of synthetic stones as a back up seems like the smart thing to do. Especially since I am sure there will be a learning curve on naturals. 

On a side note, can anyone identify the knife I posted on the first page?


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## Asteger (Jun 26, 2015)

About learning curves, aside from the basics of just actually learning to sharpen, a lot of the learning curve with naturals involves the transition for people used to non-naturals. I experienced a bit of the reverse with synths. (What's wrong? Oh, I need to soak it first/have to flatten it _again_?) With the naturals, the stones are more individual and so you need to get to know what you have individually, whether you're a novice or not, but it also helps a lot to have varied experience with other stones to compare. 

140 Atoma - use it all the time


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jun 26, 2015)

The main disadvantage of naturals so far for me it was the difficulty to raise a burr as it is much slower than synths. On the other hand, one can sharpen a knife removing much less steel and the final edge is surprisingly good. So good that i negleted my synths to cheap stainless steel, experiments with kasumi finish or attempts at thinning. When i need a fast result i use Jon's diamond plate (to set the bevel), which i liked a lot. No more flattening! Of course, i defer to the more experienced with Jnats here.


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## Asteger (Jun 26, 2015)

Definitely. I guess with naturals what you often get is a mini-burr in comparison. After not touching synths for some time, when I finally did the burr seemed obscenely massive by comparison. But I also thought, whoa, there goes quite a bit of my knife with it. Me, I don't find good nats slow at all. They're the norm, while synths can seem a little too impatient and aggressive.


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## CoqaVin (Jun 26, 2015)

Synths are usually a little to aggressive for me ,they always seem to leave quite the scratches


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## daveb (Jun 26, 2015)

JohnF said:


> On a side note, can anyone identify the knife I posted on the first page?



It's probably been overlooked by the folks that know that sort of thing. Looks like a no-frill, carbon. Very average. Suggest you start a new thread "Knife ID Help" or some such and post it agian. Include photos of both sides and any visible markings on the blade. May want to knock some of the crud off first.


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## mlau (Jul 27, 2015)

In terms of the question on stones, I agree with what the others say here.

I'd recommend checking out Dave Martell's website and maybe PMing him. The stones that he carries are top-shelf and the pricing is the lowest that I've seen anywhere (a Kitayama 8000 for under $65?!). He also knows a little something regarding sharpening.

You can also look at the ToolsefromJapan.com special Sigma sharpening set. It's geared towards woodworking, but should work great for any knives. Stu is a pretty solid guy. I'll probably be looking into buying this set, mainly for woodworking. He's highly respected at Sawmillcreek.

For your first stones: coarse and medium grits, I highly recommend a good ceramic stone. This will allow you to do repairs, reprofiling, and deal with almost any steel on the market. For Fine, Ceramics and articifical reconstituted stones are great too.

For fine and finishers, Naturals are nicer, but on the right steel. For an amateur like me, good white steel or the stainless equivalent (AEBL, Heiji's SS) is an absolute pleasure on a great stone. They're not as abrasive, but they have this sexy, silky feel (at least the stone that I have) and can leave a very "gentle" edge for lack of a better word... You'd have to experience it.


No affiliation. Just a prospective customer of Dave, and a satisfied customer of Stu.

-Matt

ps. If you're ever around Berkeley, CA, Hida tool caries NOS natural finishing stones from Kyoto. They're not sold on the website, since the stock is variable and non-renewed. However, the stones are very high quality. You can only buy them in person.


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## JohnF (Jul 28, 2015)

Thanks for the suggestions, I actually already got the Gesshin stone set from JKI and an Atoma 140 from Japan-tool. 

However I am already considering adding a natural stone to my synthetics haha.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 30, 2015)

Hawaii is a good place to find old carbons laying around mostly from Japan. Is there Kanji on the opposite side?


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## JohnF (Jul 30, 2015)

Keith - there is Kanji only on that one side. I definitely would like to restore it even if it is a cheapo carbon haha.


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