# Ever get mildly disappointed by a knife?



## mlau (Sep 1, 2020)

Dear Knife nuts,

Do you ever get mildly disappointed by a kitchen knife?
In my case, it starts out as something minor...then, gets me nuts enough to fix it, or change knives.

Let's see:
Heiji 270 mm gyuto. Great knife. Huge. Scared off most of my family. Larger than my board could handle. Sold it to a happy forumite.
Heiji Santoku. No real complaints. Super sharp. Needs a little babying
Tanaka Santoku (present to a friend)- sharp on the spine. Needed rounding, and handle polishing
Heiji Chukabocho based of Sugimoto 6= Very heavy and square handle. Bigger than I'm used to. Sold it to a happy forumite.
No-name Hong Kong cleaver- great balance and weight. Sorta soft.
Calton custom Chinese cleaver- based off the Hong Kong cleaver. $$$$. Had a slightly square transition of bolster/handle to blade. Needed to round it off.
Messermeister Olivia- wanted to try a "good" German knife. Excellent ergos and blade grind. Sorta disappointingly soft...even compared to the Chinese made stuff that I have.

How about you guys?


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## rickbern (Sep 1, 2020)

Takamura R2 210 Gyuto. Seemed like a knife for Barbie. Gave it to a friend, he loves it.


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## parbaked (Sep 1, 2020)

Yoshikane Tsuchime SKD...wedged even after thinning.
My Kaeru cut better...


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 1, 2020)

Mazaki kasumi from K&S early 2020 batch. Needs thinning out of the box.

Konosuke GS+ Togatta gyuto 240. Too light and the KS like profile didn't work for me.

Ikeda white 3 oil honyaki. That knife is beautiful but needed serious thinning which I did painfully.

Masamoto KS honkasumi deba. Heel is not polished. Shape of the handle is a bit skewed.

Back in 2018. Yaxell dragon fusion. That profile looks interesting but it didn't work for me at all. Not sure why it became the knife of the year by Burrfection.


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## ma_sha1 (Sep 1, 2020)

[QUOTE="Hz_zzzzzz, post: 737188, member: 38184]

Back in 2018. Yaxell dragon fusion. That profile looks interesting but it didn't work for me at all. Not sure why it became the knife of the year by Burrfection.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, it came with a donation of the year?


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## zizirex (Sep 1, 2020)

Mazaki 240mm Gyuto, I got an Axe instead of a Gyuto. I was happy with the Nakiri, but the gyuto is just not the same level.


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## Ruso (Sep 1, 2020)

I usually do not get mildly disappointed in knives. I am either dissapointed or not. My biggest dissapoitment was dealing with Watanabe.


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## YumYumSauce (Sep 1, 2020)

Gesshin Uraku Gyuto 240 White #2
1st impressions were meh. It was my 1st carbon steel and most expensive knife up to that point and I just hyped myself out. No regrets about buying it tho. Learned a lot about knife maintanence from taking care of carbons to sharpening and one that Im not afraid to experiement with.


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## dafox (Sep 1, 2020)

My biggest disappointments have been the knives that I haven't been able to keep because of my chemical sensitivities, ku finishes, Chinese steel, epoxy and hot glue handle glues, and some handle materials and wood finishes.


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## daddy yo yo (Sep 1, 2020)

Kato WH in 240mm. Didn’t click with me. Neither did my first KS.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 1, 2020)

Ittinomonn nakiri - this is going to sound pretentious, but the kanji/branding has started to bug me. I could never buy a Kaeru for the same reason, the name is just too dumb.

And knives made of white #2 steel. I tell myself edge retention isn't a big deal and I'll enjoy the excuse to sharpen them more. But then I'm cutting a tomato a month later and feel the need for something new.


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## MowgFace (Sep 1, 2020)

My *Kaeru 210*. Not sure if its the geometry or the faux-sumi. Just doesn't cut that well. Havn't had time to tweak it, though. Its not a bad knife just not as good as i had heard. I want to try the 240 though.
*Tanaka Blue Damascus 240 *- My knife is 100% ground for a lefty. Still have it though.
*Goko 240* - This thing was all messed up. Overgrinds all over the place, hole in the edge, and the W#1 was brittle AF. Re-profiled, wide bevels evened and purposefully left the edge a little fat. forever a beater.


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## MowgFace (Sep 1, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> Ittinomonn nakiri - this is going to sound pretentious, but the kanji/branding has started to bug me. I could never buy a Kaeru for the same reason, the name is just too dumb.



What does Itinomonn mean?


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## McMan (Sep 1, 2020)

rickbern said:


> Takamura R2 210 Gyuto. Seemed like a knife for Barbie. Gave it to a friend, he loves it.


Me too. Never really jibed with his one. Nice F&F though.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 1, 2020)

"First gate" literally, meaning the outer gate of a castle. It's not the meaning that bugs me, but the impression it was chosen by a westerner just because it looks cool. Like I said, it's pretentious of me to care. For whatever reason I'd rather get a nearly(?)identical knife branded with a random surname like Kashima.


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## rickbern (Sep 1, 2020)

YumYumSauce said:


> Gesshin Uraku Gyuto 240 White #2
> 1st impressions were meh. It was my 1st carbon steel and most expensive knife up to that point and I just hyped myself out. No regrets about buying it tho. Learned a lot about knife maintanence from taking care of carbons to sharpening and one that Im not afraid to experiement with.


EXACTLY the same experience with my Uraku. It was my first knife, mine was stainless. I had to go through a major reworking of the blade with remedial thinning to make it usable. I can't dislike the knife though, because I learned so much about knife maintenance from it that it was worth it's weight in gold to me.






Thinning a Gesshin Uraku-The process


I'm kind of new to the world of Japanese knives, and thought I could help out some other new users with this thread. First, a little backstory. I researched the daylights out of knives and finally decided to call Japanese Knife Imports for advice. Budget was not a big problem for me, anything...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## MowgFace (Sep 1, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> "First gate" literally, meaning the outer gate of a castle. It's not the meaning that bugs me, but the impression it was chosen by a westerner just because it looks cool. Like I said, it's pretentious of me to care. For whatever reason I'd rather get a nearly(?)identical knife branded with a random surname like Kashima.



No judgement at all. I just had no idea, haha.


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## TB_London (Sep 1, 2020)

I have some Carter’s that are flat out great knives. I have 1 that’s just not as good, the geometry is off, still good but mildly disappointing as I wanted it to be the same but bigger than the others


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## ma_sha1 (Sep 1, 2020)

Certain unicorn who’s name shall remain hidden for personal safety. Turned out to be a donkey with an ice cream cone stuck on the forehead.


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## DitmasPork (Sep 1, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Certain unicorn who’s name shall remain hidden for personal safety. Turned out to be a donkey with an ice cream cone stuck on the forehead.


Are you referring to the knife you recently gave a nose job and lipo, transforming nakiri to a gyuto?


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## juice (Sep 1, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Are you referring to the knife you recently gave a nose job and lipo


He turned Rebel Wilson into Scarlett Johansson, you're underselling him


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## ma_sha1 (Sep 1, 2020)

DitmasPork said:


> Are you referring to the knife you recently gave a nose job and lipo, transforming nakiri to a gyuto?



No no no no no no


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## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 1, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> No no no no no no


In my limited vocabulary, 1 No means no but 6 Nos means Yes.


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## ian (Sep 1, 2020)

rickbern said:


> EXACTLY the same experience with my Uraku. It was my first knife, mine was stainless. I had to go through a major reworking of the blade with remedial thinning to make it usable. I can't dislike the knife though, because I learned so much about knife maintenance from it that it was worth it's weight in gold to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



KU Urakus are real different from the stainless ones (wide bevel vs convex, iirc?). Had a KU 150 petty that was pretty good for $100, if not very sophisticated. I still have the 210 stainless as a beater knife, and for that it’s perfect, as it’s indestructible. I’ve never wanted it to be thinner. Glad you got yours to a place where it suits how you use it.


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## rickbern (Sep 1, 2020)

ian said:


> KU Urakus are real different from the stainless ones (wide bevel vs convex, iirc?). Had a KU 150 petty that was pretty good for $100, if not very sophisticated. I still have the 210 stainless as a beater knife, and for that it’s perfect, as it’s indestructible. I’ve never wanted it to be thinner. Glad you got yours to a place where it suits how you use it.


Agreed. I have a uraku santoku i think it’s semi stainless. wide bevels, I bought it at the same time, I keep it at my gfs apartment, it’s a great little knife.

the uraku I thinned I ended up giving to a kid who often came to dinner who just loves to cook. He treasures that knife. It’s my plan for immortality, after I’m dead and gone he’s gonna pick up that knife every day and remember me.

Worth the cost of a knife.


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## Carlo (Sep 1, 2020)

Shibata R2 Kashima 240. I used it to dice one onion and realized it was way too thin and light; it wasn’t a bad knife but it sure wasn’t for me.


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 1, 2020)

Yes, whenever I see the one that got away in the 'New Knife' thread


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## ian (Sep 1, 2020)

Are you asking “have you ever sold a knife?” Then, yes...


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## Qapla' (Sep 1, 2020)

MowgFace said:


> No judgement at all. I just had no idea, haha.


It is a bit of a weird transcription. One would more likely spell it "ichi no mon" when writing to anglophones, or perhaps "itinomon" (no extra "n") if one was using the WW2-era kunrei-shiki romanization. (The kunrei-shiki romanization prioritizes correspondence with lines of Japanese kana script at the expense of accuracy of anglophone-identifiable phonetics.)

Similarly, other brand names like "singatirin" (more normally _shingetsurin_, or possibly _singeturin_ using the kunreishiki romanization) and "seilan" (_seiran_) are weird too.

I wonder if such names are the result of a copyright issue inside Japan? I remember the days when Takayuki Grand Chef ended up being labeled anything from "cheff" to "SHEFF" and who knows how many other such things.


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## HSC /// Knives (Sep 1, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Certain unicorn who’s name shall remain hidden for personal safety. Turned out to be a donkey with an ice cream cone stuck on the forehead.


Yep, experienced same here
I’d love to say who it is but you guys would run me out of the forum...

shocked at how poor the performance was and even more shocked at all the hype behind him


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## ian (Sep 1, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> Yep, experienced same here
> I’d love to say who it is but you guys would run me out of the forum...
> 
> shocked at how poor the performance was and even more shocked at all the hype behind him


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 1, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Certain unicorn who’s name shall remain hidden for personal safety. Turned out to be a donkey with an ice cream cone stuck on the forehead.


PM sent


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## HSC /// Knives (Sep 1, 2020)

ian said:


>



But it’s just my opinion and 20 other members will attest to how wrong I am


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## juice (Sep 1, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> But it’s just my opinion and 20 other members will attest to how wrong I am


Only 20? That's effectively a glowing recommendation, really.


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## Nagakin (Sep 1, 2020)

The passaround Kato felt great in-hand, but was underwhelming overall.

Didn't vibe with the Takeda nakiri I tried either. Maybe I'd like one of his more substantial knives?


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## captaincaed (Sep 1, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Certain unicorn who’s name shall remain hidden for personal safety. Turned out to be a donkey with an ice cream cone stuck on the forehead.


I had one of these too. I suspect everyone will if you roll the dice enough times.


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## ian (Sep 1, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> But it’s just my opinion and 20 other members will attest to how wrong I am



I’ll back you up, no matter what. 

But I get it.


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## shotsfired (Sep 2, 2020)

dafox said:


> My biggest disappointments have been the knives that I haven't been able to keep because of my chemical sensitivities, ku finishes, Chinese steel, epoxy and hot glue handle glues, and some handle materials and wood finishes.


that's interesting, do you use ceramic blades?


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## YumYumSauce (Sep 2, 2020)

rickbern said:


> EXACTLY the same experience with my Uraku. It was my first knife, mine was stainless. I had to go through a major reworking of the blade with remedial thinning to make it usable. I can't dislike the knife though, because I learned so much about knife maintenance from it that it was worth it's weight in gold to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think we got them around the same time. I remember reading your post sometime after as I was messing around with it!


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## dafox (Sep 2, 2020)

shotsfired said:


> that's interesting, do you use ceramic blades?


I've never tried one.


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## daddy yo yo (Sep 2, 2020)

dafox said:


> I've never tried one.


And you haven't missed anything.


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## Runner_up (Sep 2, 2020)

Was very underwhelmed by a matsubara gyuto. Had to completely redo the grind on both sides from spine down.

An early Mazaki that needed a lot of thinning to cut properly, with heat treatment that I can only describe as "off". (Will never sell this knife as I think it's a rather poor example, it's kept at work now for staff to use).

Although some of my absolute favorite overall knives - I'm sometimes disappointed in what I perceive to be slightly sloppy work from Heiji. I have five, with another on the way, and all have at least one section of cladding that basically touches the edge. It hasn't been an issue on any of them, even after heavy use and thinning - but I do worry that at some point one of my knives will have a section of the blade where the core steel doesn't make it to the cutting edge.


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## adam92 (Sep 2, 2020)

TF maboroshi, end up return the knife & brought the Yoshimi Kato gyuto.

TF Overgrind issue ****ed me up.

Edit: Spine & choil not smooth enough, quite sharp if holding pinch grip for long time. I brought Wa handle version, handle is not good, little bit gap between bolster and wood.

Another knife is my first gyuto from echef, Yoshihiro VG10 Damascus. I asked kanji engraving but it was the dumbest engraving I ever saw, looks like baby playing with chisel engraving, knife is thick, OOTB edge disappoints me, handle start cracking after around one years.


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## ian (Sep 2, 2020)

adam92 said:


> TF maboroshi, end up return the knife & brought the Yoshimi Kato gyuto.
> 
> TF Overgrind issue ****ed me up.



Mild disappointment, eh?


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## Don Nguyen (Sep 2, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> Yep, experienced same here
> I’d love to say who it is but you guys would run me out of the forum...
> 
> shocked at how poor the performance was and even more shocked at all the hype behind him



*sweating intensifies*


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## HSC /// Knives (Sep 2, 2020)

Don Nguyen said:


> *sweating intensifies*


Wasn’t you. 
I’ve only ever tried that older paring knife I showed you


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## Matt Jacobs (Sep 2, 2020)

Kurosaki Shiziku R2 165 Bunka. Ever so slightly twisted blade and constant micro chips. Right after sharpening this thing is a dream at slaying onions. When I go to put it away I see tiny glints on the blade from micro chipping. The only thing I can think of is a higher sharpening angle but then I lose the performance.
I am thinking maybe a bad heat treat?


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## mlau (Sep 2, 2020)

Interesting to see the reactions here.

Some of them (Watanabe, etc) I thought could do no wrong?
Anyways, keep them coming.


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## LostHighway (Sep 2, 2020)

Carlo said:


> Shibata R2 Kashima 240. I used it to dice one onion and realized it was way too thin and light; it wasn’t a bad knife but it sure wasn’t for me.



This really needs to be two threads, a bad workmanship or PIA to deal with and a "just not my style" thread.
I tend to like lighter (not necessarily laser-ish just not heavy weight) knives. I have the R2 Kashima in the roughly 220 length and really like it but I can totally understand someone else hating it. Not only is it extremely light but it has an odd feel - insubstantial? inert? dead? I don't know quite how to characterize it, but for lateral cuts on onions or slicing it is, for me, absolutely great. Horses for courses.


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## mlau (Sep 2, 2020)

I guess.....of my knives, I still enjoy using them a ton. They're great knives.

Just very minor niggles that most non-knife nuts would never notice.


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## tgfencer (Sep 2, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> Yep, experienced same here
> I’d love to say who it is but you guys would run me out of the forum...
> 
> shocked at how poor the performance was and even more shocked at all the hype behind him



Tease.


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## Matus (Sep 2, 2020)

HSC /// Knives said:


> Yep, experienced same here
> I’d love to say who it is but you guys would run me out of the forum...
> 
> shocked at how poor the performance was and even more shocked at all the hype behind him



I can guarantee your safety ... as long as it is not me


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## DonnerJack (Sep 3, 2020)

Runner_up said:


> An early Mazaki that needed a lot of thinning to cut properly, with heat treatment that I can only describe as "off". (Will never sell this knife as I think it's a rather poor example, it's kept at work now for staff to use).



Would it be rude to ask you to try and describe it better/more informatively? What would you consider as good/off? I just see people throw around "heat treatment" all the time and I really wonder how one would actually notice this/how would it impact usage.


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## mlau (Sep 3, 2020)

Hey Matus,

Just wanted to give you kudos for an interesting blog. If I ever get into knifemaking (not just sticking handles on things), you will have had a part of that.

-Matt


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## Runner_up (Sep 3, 2020)

DonnerJack said:


> Would it be rude to ask you to try and describe it better/more informatively? What would you consider as good/off? I just see people throw around "heat treatment" all the time and I really wonder how one would actually notice this/how would it impact usage.



Characteristics of a "good" heat treatment would include:
- Ease of sharpening
- The ability to hold an edge for a long time
- Stable edge (should be able to be thin, without excessive chipping)

The characteristics of a "bad" heat treatment would include:
- Well, the opposite.

Once you start to sharpen many knives, by many blacksmiths, in many different steels you will begin to also notice more subtle things such as steel feedback on whetstones, and ease of de-burring.

So if a blade isn't easy/ feel good to sharpen, is excessively difficult to de-burr, won't take a keen edge, or hold it - then you have a blade with poor heat treatment. (or problems in your sharpening technique) 

This is, of course, in reference to simple carbon steels that we see in most Japanese knives. There are PM steels that are definitely more difficult to sharpen and de-burr, and don't feel as nice or give as good feedback on whetstones. But they certainly will hold an edge for a very long time.


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## mlau (Sep 3, 2020)

Very well said.


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## Matus (Sep 3, 2020)

@mlau I actually do make knives, but they are way too far in between to matter much ...


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## mlau (Sep 3, 2020)

I know that you make knives (nice work on your blog btw).

If *I* ever get serious into knife making, you'll be the third influence on that. My others include a gum surgeon friend (makes hunting knives) and a hairdresser patient (makes swords and HEMA gear).


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## Malcolm Johnson (Sep 3, 2020)

KU Mazaki 240mm gyuto from k&s earlier this year. I loved the weight, height, length, profile, taper, and especially the thick spine because of comfort in a pinch grip.... but man was that thing chippy even with a microbevel put on it. Also really didn’t like the k&s ebony handle... I prefer blade forward balance and this one did not have that. Also wasn’t that excellent to sharpen. I replaced that for my tsubaya branded Y Tanaka and the Tanaka is easier to sharpen, has much better retention, and honestly has way better toughness as well. Plus the handle that came on my Tanaka puts the balance forward. I dig the Mazaki for a lot of reasons and maybe will pick up one from another batch but my example was not that great.


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## JBroida (Sep 3, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> "First gate" literally, meaning the outer gate of a castle. It's not the meaning that bugs me, but the impression it was chosen by a westerner just because it looks cool. Like I said, it's pretentious of me to care. For whatever reason I'd rather get a nearly(?)identical knife branded with a random surname like Kashima.


Its also the name of an area in Sanjo near where the knives come from... right near higashisanjo


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## Matus (Sep 3, 2020)

@mlau , I apologize, I completely misread your post.

Do go for it - it is a lot of fun


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## chiffonodd (Sep 3, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> PM sent



I wanna know toooooooo  lips are sealed!


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## LikenessMonster (Sep 3, 2020)

Runner_up said:


> Characteristics of a "good" heat treatment would include:
> - Ease of sharpening
> - The ability to hold an edge for a long time
> - Stable edge (should be able to be thin, without excessive chipping)
> ...


 Thank you for this. this just simplified so many threads on HT that left me more confused than when I started, due to excessive & lengthy chatter.


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## pleue (Sep 3, 2020)

Runner_up said:


> Characteristics of a "good" heat treatment would include:
> - Ease of sharpening
> - The ability to hold an edge for a long time
> - Stable edge (should be able to be thin, without excessive chipping)
> ...



Adding to the excessive and lengthy chatter.

I agree on a lot of fronts but I worry about exclaiming from experience what knife/maker possesses a good heat treat or not. It's a pretty classic slippery slope of expressing one's opinions on the internet. Ease of sharpening, edge retention, and edge stability can also be drastically affected by the user: What condition the knife you have is in currently, flatness of the stone, sharpening technique/where you stop/what you've actually accomplished, knife skills (pressure, consistency, choosing the right knife for a task, how many cardboard boxes you open), personal perception of 'good' edge retention, cutting boards, etc. I think I'm middle of the road at sharpening, probably above middle in knife skills. FWIW I think I've sharpened >2000 knives (not unique knives, but # of reps). Sometimes early on in the process I got lucky and got a good result, but often I just sucked at it and made it perhaps better than bad, occasionally worse. I worry that folks start talking amongst themselves on a public platform that X maker has a better/worse/good/crap heat treat than X maker when we're not equipped to make that call and potentially F with people's livelihoods. That said, say what you want to say obviously but some possible food for thought.


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## ian (Sep 3, 2020)

It’s true that many statements on here could be made with more humility. I try to use subjective phrasing like “i disliked the feel of sharpening xxx, and had problems getting it sharp” instead of making statements like “the HT is crap”. But probably I’ve slipped up once or twice. I think the feel on the stones and the ease of sharpening is something you can really feel quickly, though. I mean, I haven’t sharpened 2000 times quite yet (once a day for almost 6 years?), but I can tell when a burr is stubborn or when a knife feels totally amazing on the stones.


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 3, 2020)

JBroida said:


> Its also the name of an area in Sanjo near where the knives come from... right near higashisanjo


I feel like an idiot. Thanks Jon, that's good to know. You just increased the perceived value of my knife  I still think 'Frog' is dumb, except maybe from a marketing perspective. Like how retailers make their generic brands look worse to drive consumers towards more expensive name brands. Ok, so maybe it's actually genius too.

And since some have overlooked 'mildly' in the title, I'll add - handles. I've had a few great knives I've sold because the handle started to bug me over time: a Herder with a slight gap between handle and blade, every yo-handled knife that wasn't a Misono, and both wa pettys I've owned. The blades were so awesome I wanted to like them (Konosuke and Y. Tanaka), but for me wa handles are just too clunky on narrow knives. I think I've finally learned my lesson.


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## juice (Sep 3, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I think I've finally learned my lesson.


Mmmmmm


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## spaceconvoy (Sep 3, 2020)

yeah, I doubt it too


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## Runner_up (Sep 3, 2020)

pleue said:


> Adding to the excessive and lengthy chatter.
> 
> I agree on a lot of fronts but I worry about exclaiming from experience what knife/maker possesses a good heat treat or not. It's a pretty classic slippery slope of expressing one's opinions on the internet. Ease of sharpening, edge retention, and edge stability can also be drastically affected by the user: What condition the knife you have is in currently, flatness of the stone, sharpening technique/where you stop/what you've actually accomplished, knife skills (pressure, consistency, choosing the right knife for a task, how many cardboard boxes you open), personal perception of 'good' edge retention, cutting boards, etc. I think I'm middle of the road at sharpening, probably above middle in knife skills. FWIW I think I've sharpened >2000 knives (not unique knives, but # of reps). Sometimes early on in the process I got lucky and got a good result, but often I just sucked at it and made it perhaps better than bad, occasionally worse. I worry that folks start talking amongst themselves on a public platform that X maker has a better/worse/good/crap heat treat than X maker when we're not equipped to make that call and potentially F with people's livelihoods. That said, say what you want to say obviously but some possible food for thought.




You are correct in that my comment makes certain assumptions. For example that the reader is proficient in both knife skills and maintenance. That being said - isn't the point of this public platform for end users to discuss their experiences? I would surmise there are a lot of folks here who write reviews about grinds/performance/finishing who are not "equipped to make that call" - and yet the input is still (mostly) valued.

Considering the demand for Mazaki knives, glowing praise for his products, and the (to me) insane prices for his damascus knives - I hardly doubt that me saying I have an older knife from him with an off heat treatment will "F with his livelihood".


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## Barmoley (Sep 4, 2020)

Runner_up said:


> You are correct in that my comment makes certain assumptions. For example that the reader is proficient in both knife skills and maintenance. That being said - isn't the point of this public platform for end users to discuss their experiences? I would surmise there are a lot of folks here who write reviews about grinds/performance/finishing who are not "equipped to make that call" - and yet the input is still (mostly) valued.
> 
> Considering the demand for Mazaki knives, glowing praise for his products, and the (to me) insane prices for his damascus knives - I hardly doubt that me saying I have an older knife from him with an off heat treatment will "F with his livelihood".


Opinions on heat treat are tricky, because unlike other attributes of the knife heat treat can’t be seen or really known unless the maker tells you exactly what he did. Even hardness that we like to talk about doesn’t tell you everything because you can get to the same number different ways and for example have different toughness at the same hardness with the same steel. Feeling on the stones tells us something, but depends on which stones and what the users perspective is. Same for edge holding, what are you comparing to? Is the geometry the same and is the difference really the heat treat or geometry. Some people don’t like glassy feel on the stones of very hard steels, but then complain that well feeling on the stones knives don’t hold the edge very well or that hard knives chip or any other complaints about the heat treat, when geometry or something else could be the issue.

in any case, all opinions are welcomed, this is why we are here and all of it is just opinions. Just keep in mind that quality of the heat treat might be one of the most difficult attributes to discuss or determine.


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## ian (Sep 4, 2020)

I’ve never loved the feel of sharpening a Mazaki


Barmoley said:


> Some people don’t like glassy feel on the stones of very hard steels



I don’t know anyone who’s ever complained about that.


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## Barmoley (Sep 4, 2020)

ian said:


> I’ve never loved the feel of sharpening a Mazaki
> 
> 
> I don’t know anyone who’s ever complained about that.


Which mazaki, there are so many generations and versions that it is almost like talking about different smiths. I’ve tried two the earlier cleancut kasumi and the latest from ckc, the knives are so different in everything that if I didn’t know better I wouldn’t realize they were made by the same guy.


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## Nagakin (Sep 4, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Opinions on heat treat are tricky, because unlike other attributes of the knife heat treat can’t be seen or really known unless the maker tells you exactly what he did. Even hardness that we like to talk about doesn’t tell you everything because you can get to the same number different ways and for example have different toughness at the same hardness with the same steel. Feeling on the stones tells us something, but depends on which stones and what the users perspective is. Same for edge holding, what are you comparing to? Is the geometry the same and is the difference really the heat treat or geometry. Some people don’t like glassy feel on the stones of very hard steels, but then complain that well feeling on the stones knives don’t hold the edge very well or that hard knives chip or any other complaints about the heat treat, when geometry or something else could be the issue.
> 
> in any case, all opinions are welcomed, this is why we are here and all of it is just opinions. Just keep in mind that quality of the heat treat might be one of the most difficult attributes to discuss or determine.


This is basically why when commenting on steel nowadays I limit my opinion to how it feels on the board. Some knives just give their own tingle on contact. Probably why so many of us like using vintages so often...I'd make a thread about it if I knew how to word it.


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## ian (Sep 4, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Which mazaki, there are so many generations and versions that it is almost like talking about different smiths. I’ve tried two the earlier cleancut kasumi and the latest from ckc, the knives are so different in everything that if I didn’t know better I wouldn’t realize they were made by the same guy.



Sorry, the thing about Mazaki was just an unfinished sentence that I forgot to delete before posting. I was mainly referring to older (2nd gen?) Mazaki. But I think I just don't like the glassy feeling... the ones I tried got plenty sharp and were not very difficult to deburr. Had the same experience with Munetoshi White #2; great knife, great steel, not my preferred feeling on the stones. Idk what to say, I'm weird.


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## naader (Sep 4, 2020)

mlau said:


> Dear Knife nuts,
> 
> Do you ever get mildly disappointed by a kitchen knife?
> In my case, it starts out as something minor...then, gets me nuts enough to fix it, or change knives.
> ...


Literally every knife I have ever gotten with maybe one or two exceptions had something I could nitpick about, so yes.


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## DonnerJack (Sep 7, 2020)

Takeda NAS Nakiri - I just don't get what people gush about. Wedges, and also (IMHO) should have been rounded at the heel. It's basically a sharp, right angle and it's annoying as hell.


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## Wander Vanhoucke (Sep 7, 2020)

Made a single bevel gyuto once... Wasn't good at gyuto tasks nor Yanagiba tasks.


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## Xenif (Sep 7, 2020)

ma_sha1 said:


> Certain unicorn who’s name shall remain hidden for personal safety. Turned out to be a donkey with an ice cream cone stuck on the forehead.







But he is a handsome donkey with a icecream cone of pure gold


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## HappyamateurDK (Sep 8, 2020)

Takamura R2 210 mm gyuto. Feels too light and flimsy for my taste.


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## Xenif (Sep 8, 2020)

Unicorn or not, I find people are very quick to judge a knife. Cut a carrot, onion, etc., And quickly exclaim that the knife under performs or its not for me. Personal, I like to find out where a knife needs a little/a lot of work, then choose to work on that or move it along. This process takes a fair bit of time, using, analysing, testing, modifying. Some knives, just take awhile to grow on you while some will amaze you off the bat but you find some unfixable quark you cant stand down the road. 

Sometimes what it takes for a unicorn to shine, is a bit of rolling in mud, rubbing on something with purple renge, and a final brushing of uchigumori. They can litterally glow from the inside.


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## Bert2368 (Sep 8, 2020)

Xenif said:


> View attachment 93731
> 
> But he is a handsome donkey with a icecream cone of pure gold




Honi soit qui mal y pense.












199 Off-Leash Unicorn Park: Part IV – Darwin Carmichael is Going to Hell | Updates Tuesdays







dcisgoingtohell.com















206 Off-Leash Unicorn Park: Part XI – Darwin Carmichael is Going to Hell | Updates Tuesdays







dcisgoingtohell.com


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## bonody (Sep 11, 2020)

Takada no Hamono B2 gyuto. OOTB, something about this knife just felt off to me. It was THICC behind the edge and AT the edge. That, in combination with it's incredibly short heel height and relatively lackluster fit and finish, was enough for me to return it without even using it.

Granted, it was from the standard iron-clad line and not the Suiboku or Reika lines, I was still extremely disappointed considering its price.


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## pomalo (Sep 10, 2022)

mlau said:


> Dear Knife nuts,
> 
> Do you ever get mildly disappointed by a kitchen knife?
> In my case, it starts out as something minor...then, gets me nuts enough to fix it, or change knives.
> ...


So this is a little off topic, but how do you like/dislike the Heiji 180 Santoku? Thinking of getting one. How is the cutting performance? Would it handle a dense vegetable like a sweet potato?


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## labor of love (Sep 10, 2022)

pomalo said:


> So this is a little off topic, but how do you like/dislike the Heiji 180 Santoku? Thinking of getting one. How is the cutting performance? Would it handle a dense vegetable like a sweet potato?


No


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## pomalo (Sep 10, 2022)

labor of love said:


> No


No, what? No need to be mean….


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## riba (Sep 10, 2022)

pomalo said:


> No, what? No need to be mean….


I understood:

Would it handle a dense vegetable like a sweet potato?

--> no
.....

You'd rather hear 'yes'?


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## daveb (Sep 10, 2022)

The walk in.


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## M1k3 (Sep 10, 2022)

pomalo said:


> So this is a little off topic, but how do you like/dislike the Heiji 180 Santoku? Thinking of getting one. How is the cutting performance? Would it handle a dense vegetable like a sweet potato?


Wedge like crazy in stock form. Knock the shoulders off the Shinogi and you'll be in business.


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## pomalo (Sep 10, 2022)

riba said:


> I understood:
> 
> Would it handle a dense vegetable like a sweet potato?
> 
> ...


No not at all!! I want to hear the truth!! 

I woke up, saw a one worded answer , “no” to my 3 questions I asked, and I was like . Why did he only write no? I asked like 3 things, and he didn’t specify what he is writing no to. I thought he was writing no to me for posting that question in this thread. guess I over thought it eh. **** happens at 3am lol.


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## pomalo (Sep 10, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Wedge like crazy in stock form. Knock the shoulders off the Shinogi and you'll be in business.


Thank you for the Tips!!! Good to know about the wedging for sure


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## pomalo (Sep 10, 2022)

labor of love said:


> No


Hey labor of love, if I misread or thought too much into your “no” last night , I apologize , please forgive my inability to understand normal human conversation


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## enrico l (Sep 10, 2022)

pomalo said:


> Hey labor of love, if I misread or thought too much into your “no” last night , I apologize , please forgive my inability to understand normal human conversation


This was also a very old thread (2 years ago since the last post) so getting any answer was a win.


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## pomalo (Sep 10, 2022)

enrico l said:


> This was also a very old thread (2 years ago since the last post) so getting any answer was a win.


I feel that! Very glad to have gotten answers, there is very little out there about the Heiji Santoku, and reviews of it so im trying everything .

I just need to take 5 minutes and breath before jumping to conclusions, especially int he middle of the night, lesson learned


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## gentiscid (Sep 10, 2022)

TADAFUSA 210 SLD Gyuto… Had a greyish finish, was thick enough but not a workhorse. I get it its an OEM knife and mass production but my joy before getting it even with a good discount price, was not the same after receiving it. Returned and invested the money in a better knife.


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## labor of love (Sep 10, 2022)

pomalo said:


> Hey labor of love, if I misread or thought too much into your “no” last night , I apologize , please forgive my inability to understand normal human conversation


Sorry for the one word answer! I can elaborate, usually(but not always) heijis come with pretty sharp wedgy shoulders that make cutting through large dense food challenging. I never had problems with baby carrots or fingerling potatoes, but huge carrots might be problematic. Just depends on the geometry of the heiji in question.


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## pomalo (Sep 10, 2022)

totally get that, and I 100% appreciate all the help and answers I get! Im just socially horrible at understanding some things, like his


labor of love said:


> Sorry for the one word answer! I can elaborate, usually(but not always) heijis come with pretty sharp wedgy shoulders that make cutting through large dense food challenging. I never had problems with baby carrots or fingerling potatoes, but huge carrots might be problematic. Just depends on the geometry of the heiji in question.


Labor, I appreciate the elaboration, and once again, I apologize dearly for being an impulsive bum. I should have just asked what you meant instead of jumping to a conclusion!!
Thank you so much for the explanation, and it definitely helps knowing that they can come wedgy which diminishes the ability to move through dense food. That's a common theme I seem to notice amongst people comments on the Heiji knives. Im wondering if that would be something on the SS Santoku that would be "modifiable", or if its a better idea to go with another option if I plan on cutting larger & denser items occasionally.

From Heiji, I was considering ordering either a 240mm wa-gyuto or a 180mm Santoku. I already have a 210mm Funayuki Blue#1 in my collection , and that may be enough for some of the larger items. I'm also thinking in steel quality and longevity. I do hear that the Heiji steel (carbon or semistainless) are both exceptional , and easy to sharpen and work on.

My wife, who is not big into upkeep, will also be using the knife, so I am leaning towards SS over Carbon regardless of which knife I choose.

now I am off the topic of the thread for sure, would love to continue the conversation if you have any suggestions for me!


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## M1k3 (Sep 10, 2022)

pomalo said:


> totally get that, and I 100% appreciate all the help and answers I get! Im just socially horrible at understanding some things, like his
> 
> Labor, I appreciate the elaboration, and once again, I apologize dearly for being an impulsive bum. I should have just asked what you meant instead of jumping to a conclusion!!
> Thank you so much for the explanation, and it definitely helps knowing that they can come wedgy which diminishes the ability to move through dense food. That's a common theme I seem to notice amongst people comments on the Heiji knives. Im wondering if that would be something on the SS Santoku that would be "modifiable", or if its a better idea to go with another option if I plan on cutting larger & denser items occasionally.
> ...


It's not that hard. Give this thread a read.





Heiji direct


I know there is probably info about ordering direct from heiji embedded in other threads but i cant seem to find one about this specifically. Can someone with experience please share how-to, overall experience, wait times, and QC going direct? Thanks




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## labor of love (Sep 10, 2022)

@pomalo feek free to pm if you’d like.
I could talk forever about heijis. They’re great knives but they’re a lot better at some things more than other things


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## daveb (Sep 10, 2022)

Jon, (Japanese Knife Imports) retails the Gessin Heiji. It would be time well spent to give his shop a call and ask about suitability for your application. If it's not a good fit he'll tell you and probably suggest alternatives.


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## Lurkernomore (Sep 10, 2022)

spaceconvoy said:


> Ittinomonn nakiri - this is going to sound pretentious, but the kanji/branding has started to bug me. I could never buy a Kaeru for the same reason, the name is just too dumb.
> 
> And knives made of white #2 steel. I tell myself edge retention isn't a big deal and I'll enjoy the excuse to sharpen them more. But then I'm cutting a tomato a month later and feel the need for something new.


Ittinomonn is just the most stupid transliteration possible. Using modern ways it should be Ichinomon, which to the best of my knowledge is one of the Japanese castle gates.


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## Jovidah (Sep 11, 2022)

My biggest disappointment was still my wusthof classic ikon 23 cm chef knife. Even though I bought it at half the price as an abuse knife it still underwhelmed me. 

Other mild disappointments; after using mono carbons for a while already I was somewhat unpleasantly surprised at how much more reactive carbon knives are (both Mazaki and Y Tanaka), and I still don't really feel like my Ashi petty really does a better job at trimming meats than my fillet knives.


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