# Vegetable cleaver vs nakiri



## Barmoley (Nov 13, 2018)

The thread about future trends and Chef Doom's comment sparked a question in my mind. Instead of polluting the other thread, I am asking a separate question.

What are the benefits of vegetable cleaver vs nakiri. I've used CCK 1303 and liked it a lot, not enough to give up gyutos, but I see how one could. What are some benefits of a nakiri vs that, except maybe weight which could go either way I guess?


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## Xenif (Nov 13, 2018)

+1 this thread. I also want to know how does one define a Nakiri vs a Veg Cleaver? Height? Profile? how does knifes like Takeda and Mazaki KU Nakiri which are like 60+mm tall and longer than avg Nakiri fit in ?


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## Paraffin (Nov 13, 2018)

I've used big Chinese veg cleavers in the past, I just prefer the smaller size of a nakiri now. Mainly using a 165mm Yoshikazu Ikeda in Blue #1, and I switch to my wife's 180mm Kurosaki in R2 on rare occasions when I want something a little larger, or less reactive for something like red cabbage. 

Compared to a large Chinese cleaver, a nakiri is more nimble and less tiring in the hand. I like it for things like a rapid freehand _whack-whack-whack_ vertical chop to mince garlic after cutting it into small slices. Or chopping up parseley or cilantro, same motion. That would either be impractical or more tiring with a large Chinese cleaver. I'd probably rest the point on the board and use less of a freehand motion with a larger blade.

Another thing I like about the smaller size of the nakiri is that it's a little easier to sight down the top of the blade when doing small precision stuff, like draw-slicing chili or green onion ribbons for garnish. With a full-size Chinese cleaver I always feel like I'm using a tool that's way bigger than it needs to be, for small precision cuts like that. And yeah, I know a "real" chef steeped in Chinese tradition can do amazing precision cuts with a big cleaver. I just like the way a nakiri fits my hand. 

P.S. I did recently buy two very cheap ($19) Chinese cleavers that will only be used for chopping pork for Chinese meals using the "double chop" method. It's a different texture from running it through the grinder, I like it for things like Dan Dan noodles.


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## Jville (Nov 13, 2018)

I own 4 cleavers, 2 nakiris. Cleavers: #6 fujiyama, small takeda classis(which in size is still on the larger side- same height as the Fuji and just a little shorter), a douava cleaver and a small cck stainless. Nakiris: 180 Shig ku, 210 toyama. My favorite size I think is a small cleaver. It's light and nimble for a cleaver, yet always packs enough weight and length. If I were to make a custom it would be probably 206ish mm by 90mm. The takeda is interesting because although it's a little larger in size it's very light and nimble, so it acts like a small cleaver. I would prefer the small cleaver as an all around tool to throw whatever at and a nakiri in tight spaces or bulk prep on a particular item. That being said, in reality, you could use a nakiri as an all around tool quite successfully, personal preference ends up being the biggest factor I think.


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## LostHighway (Nov 13, 2018)

Xenif said:


> +1 this thread. I also want to know how does one define a Nakiri vs a Veg Cleaver? Height? Profile? how does knifes like Takeda and Mazaki KU Nakiri which are like 60+mm tall and longer than avg Nakiri fit in ?



If there ever was a clear distinction between a nakiri and a cleaver I think that line has become completely blurred. I see a number of knives labeled as nakiris that are 75 to 80mm tall and ≥180 mm in length, which is only slightly smaller than some cleavers. Both nakiris and cleavers seem to vary enough in profile that it would be hard to find a categorization divide there as well. If someone can draw a clear demarcation I'll be impressed.


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## jacko9 (Nov 13, 2018)

I recently bought the Watanabe Vegetable Knife (his 180mm KU Nakiri) I have several Gyuto's 210mm to 300mm long but the nimble Nakiri seems very comfortable in hand when doing a lot of veggie prep in my small home kitchen. I have sharpened a few Chinese cleavers for friends and neighbors but, for me I like the shorter 56mm tall blade.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Nov 13, 2018)

I have several nakiris, but only one cleaver, a Dalman carbon, super thin.

Not sure if this is the rule, but it's easier to make very thin slices (less than 1mm) with this cleaver than with any nakiri i have.
The added weight plus taller format feels more stable to do this.


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## Barmoley (Nov 13, 2018)

Would it be fair to say that in general veg cleavers are taller and thinner than nakiris or is this a gross simplification and there is not enough similarity within the two classes to make this generalization?


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## jacko9 (Nov 13, 2018)

From what I've seen offered recently veg cleavers and veg nakiri's come in all sizes tall and short. It seems like you can find any size that suits your preference. Take a look at Tosho and see the range in both blade length and height for sale.


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## willcutforcooks (Nov 13, 2018)

nakiri is closer to usuba. Chinese cleaver /chukabocho is different cutting dynamics. (And there are lots of interpretations of both .)
I'd say in general Chinese cleavers give a lot more weight behind the cutting edge because of their dimensions. If i can't bounce chop with it and i don't have to get over the top of it with my grip its in nakiri land.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 13, 2018)

As this thread shows it is more about personal taste and what you use it for. There are some nice Nakiri, it is not a matter of one being better than the other.

Since used cleavers many years at work, still keep a Veg. cleaver on a mag bloc at home. Prefer a cleaver can't imagine not having one.


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## Paraffin (Nov 13, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> Would it be fair to say that in general veg cleavers are taller and thinner than nakiris or is this a gross simplification and there is not enough similarity within the two classes to make this generalization?



Taller yes, because it's a defining characteristic of a Chinese cleaver. Not necessarily thinner at the active cutting edge, or nakiris wouldn't be as popular as they are.

The weight can vary a lot too. I was surprised to find that I liked the slightly heavier weight of my 165mm nakiri (220g) compared to my larger 180mm nakiri (163g). The smaller one is a slightly thicker convex grind. It's thin at the edge with some beef at the spine. The 180mm is more quasi-laser, thinner throughout the blade. There is something about the smaller, heavier nakiri that I like... the way it swings in the hand when chopping, with a bit more "authority" in the cut.

You just have to buy a bunch of these to try, including the big Chinese cleavers, and see what you like. No shortcuts, because we all have different preferences.


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## esoo (Nov 13, 2018)

I've had a CCK cleaver and a small 165 Nakiri. The biggest thing that I miss in the Nakiri is the sharp point at the tip of the blade to draw cut with.

I've got a Kotetsu Bunka which I love but it is thin, so I'd love to get something like a small cleaver in a size around 180x70 to get better food release and a stronger edge.


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## dafox (Nov 13, 2018)

Speaking of smaller cleavers, anyone ever try a Misono molly?
190x95
https://japanesechefsknife.com/coll...lybdenum-steel-series-chinese-cleaver-7-4inch


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## Paraffin (Nov 13, 2018)

esoo said:


> I've had a CCK cleaver and a small 165 Nakiri. The biggest thing that I miss in the Nakiri is the sharp point at the tip of the blade to draw cut with.



Have you sharpened that little curve on the front corner of your nakiri blade? Both of mine came sharpened at the corner curve, and I've continued keeping that front curve razor-sharp when sharpening the rest of the blade. 

It's a part of the blade that doesn't get any contact with the board when I'm chopping, so that little curve at the front corner is always the sharpest part of my nakiri. It works great for draw cuts.


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## esoo (Nov 13, 2018)

It’s a personal thing for me, but I like the accuracy of that front corner of the cleaver rather than the curve of the nakiri. I know it’s all in the technique, but coming from the bunka I really like the pointy tip. It’s really one of the only thing stopping me from trying to find a Watanabe Pro Nakiri to try.


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## Mucho Bocho (Nov 13, 2018)

Not all Nakiris have a round tip. The Moritaka I had looked like a dollar bill on a stick. Each maker shapes them differently. That’s my experience FFIW.


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## Paraffin (Nov 13, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Not all Nakiris have a round tip. The Moritaka I had looked like a dollar bill on a stick. Each maker shapes them differently. That’s my experience FFIW.



There may be some square-tip nakiris out there, but I think the typical nakiri shape is based on the traditional usuba single-edge blade with a rounded front tip. It's just a double-edge version of a usuba.

I know a usuba is used very differently from how I use a nakiri, for things like hand-cutting those ridiculously thin cucumber slices. My first foray into Japanese knives was years ago, with a Masamoto usuba, deba, and yanagiba that I wasn't ready to appreciate. I never got the hang of correcting the self-steering tendency of a usuba. But I do remember the usuba had a rounded and fairly sharp front corner.


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## Mucho Bocho (Nov 13, 2018)

Paraffin sounds logical but my Kato 180 is pretty rectangular and not rounded at the tip. The point I’m trying to make, is that all nakiri don’t have rounded noses, especially if made by western makers.


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## Xenif (Nov 14, 2018)

I grew up on CCK cleavers, have owned a bunch of them in both carbon and stainless. I also own 6 nakiris now ranging from 140-250g, from 165-210mm, height from 46-75mm and their profiles all differ quite a bit.
Although I can use a giant 400g+ 100mm tall pretty well, its never very much fun to use, mainly because the weight distribution makes them much less agile vs a Nakiri. I'm looking for that sweet spot between a full blown cleaver and nakiri, I'm waiting for the delivery of nakiri #6 still which will be super thin (sub 2mm), super tall (75+mm), but not long (175mm) that maybe my Goldilocks zone.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 14, 2018)

I'M GLAD YOU ASKED!

I've been waiting so long for this day 

Bellow is the rundown.

The Almighty Cleaver

Pros:

1. The Size - Lots of surface area for scooping. A slight slap to help dice up some garlic. Chops up melons like nobodies business. Let's be honest ladies, size does matter. Let's let the evil lie die a quick death so that we can move on with our lives.

2. The Weight - If you know how to work a cleaver, you know that the weight of the knife does most of the work for you. Gives lots of room for error. Your edge has to be SERIOUSLY dull for a cleaver to stop being effective

3. The Price - You can get a cheap cleaver for $10 USD to as high as $500+ for better Japanese steel. A cleaver to fit any budget.

4. Size Options - Cleavers are not meant to be small, but there are smaller vegetable oriented cleavers to huge bone breaking behemoths. You can have one general everyday cutter or a whole set to suit every need.

5. Ease of Sharpening - I have not once ever heard of a cleaver that was a pain to sharpen.

6. Intimidation - If you don't want strange family members or idiotic friends using your knife, nothing says "Stay The Hell Away" like a cleaver. I have had people turn down using my knives out of nervousness due to cost, but will actively keep physical distance from a cleaver.

7. No Funny Business - No hammer finish, no etched damascus, no differential hardening and no pretty weird styles. Cleavers are meant to be used and abused regardless of the cost. A cleaver is a cleaver and they are compared based on size and performance.

Cons:

1. The Weight - If you don't know what you are doing, the weight can tax your muscles. Since old Chinese men with arthritis can still use a good heavy cleaver, then the problem is YOU.

2. The Size - It will take up drawer space but I suggest you get over it.

3. Hard On The Boards - Many of nicks in many of cutting board is due to people underestimating how effective the weight of the blade is when it comes to cutting motion, including myself. You have to be careful with that $300 custom end grain walnut board.

4. Steel Types - Want that cleaver in White #1? Blue #2? Aogami Super? Mystery Meteor Steel? AEBL? Tamahagane? CPM? AUS? I wish you the best of luck on your search for The Fountain Of Youth!

5. Custom Work Price - Obviously, a custom cleaver, especially by a Western maker, is going to set you back a pretty penny.


The Poor Poor Nakiri

Pros:

1. None hahahahaha. 

2. No Tip - Non threatening will make it more inviting if you want friends and family to use better knives.

3. Availability - Easy to find in many of your favorite steels. Easy to find custom work as well.

4. Customs - A square blade smaller than a 240mm Gyuto might save you 50 bucks give or take.

5. Weight - You get similar cutting action as a Gyuto but less weight, but those few extra grams mean nothing in the long run. Wait, this is not a Gyuto comparison thread! Ah DAMNIT!

Cons:

1. More cons than pros 

2. Boredom - Happens very quickly. The more you use it, the more you find that it was not all it was cracked up to be.

3. No Blade Tip - Being circumcised, you find that you long for that extra foreskin. It's like you are missing something. A part of you that had so many benefits, yet someone somewhere made the decision for you that you didn't really need it. Just doesn't feel the same.

4. Versatility - Is anybody actually using their Nakiri to slice up meat? Debone chicken? Has anyone even thought about it. I did once and the mere thought left me feeling empty and hopeless. Like I didn't deserve the better knives I had more suited for the job.

5. Cleaver Like - Some make the mistake, like I did , of looking at a Nakiri as an introduction the the All Might Cleaver. Until you use a cleaver and find that you stepped into a whole other realm of existence. Like getting into a Toyota Corolla thinking it will prepare you for a Porsche.

6. Limited Size - Get past 200 mm and you might as well stop pretending that you don't want a cleaver. Get the damn cleaver. Under 160 mm... I don't even know what to call that... a paper knife....kid knife...?

7. Crushing Garlic - Sure, you can slap a clove of garlic, but it will put a stab wound in your soul every time. You can almost hear the Nakiri cry in pain.

8. Price - $50 Gyuto? No problem. $50 Nakiri? Probably, maybe, wouldn't you rather have a Gyuto? Or a cleaver? With the cleaver, you can use the extra $40 for your favorite dirty vices!

9. Unforgiving Edge - Unlike the Cleaver where the weight of the blade helps with the cutting motion, or the Gyuto which dulls in sections allowing you to cheat by moving starting at the heel or closer to the tip, you will feel the dullness of a Nakiri very quickly due to the tendency to make board contact with most of the edge at every chop, slice and dice. It is that sinking filling of pending DOOM! 

10. Misunderstood Profile - The Nakiri is the successor to the Usuba much like the Sujihiki is the successor to the Yanagiba. The OGs being single bevel while the young bucks are double bevel. As there is no successor to the Deba, we just call them double bevel Debas. Where as single bevels are meant to have specific needs (slicing raw fish, thinly sliced transparent vegetables, deboning old fish carcases) the single bevels attempt to get some of the benefits of the originators while maintaining a bit of diversity as well as toughness. While the Sujihiki can often be praised for what it is capable of as a worthy and prized child who always got good grades and was destined for great things due to great genetics, the Nakiri paled in comparison to the Usuba. Slept in class, started lots of fights, a total delinquent (obviously the poor Deba was sterile and could not produce any children). Can't really perform with the level of thinness as a Usuba, does only half of the things you can do with a Gyuto, or even a decent size petty for that matter. So people always turn to the Nakiri as the only other thing it could compare to, a miniature Cleaver, which it isn't because the cutting motion is suppose to mimic an Usuba. I'm repeating myself but you get the picture. A great comparison would be, while Charlie Sheen would follow in his father's footsteps to be a highly and well paid actor, Jaden Smith will pale in comparison to Will Smith's fame and will always be feeding off of the family fortunes that were etched in stone long before Will found out Jada Pinkett neither spits nor swallows, never to make a mark in Hollywood that isn't relegated to jokes and memes.


Conclusion

Nakiri's are like that toy that you thought you really wanted for Christmas or your Birthday only to be put into the closet to collect dust by week 3. A cleaver is like finally getting a decent Cast Iron Skillet after years of searing steaks in Teflon. Or getting a decent Burr Coffee Grinder after years of using a whatever you were using before. Or getting some real authentic Maple Syrup after years of using cheap pancake syrup made of corn syrup and other flavorings. Or getting a real massage from a real masseuse after years of visiting seedy back ally...uh...yeah...you get the picture.


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## Barmoley (Nov 14, 2018)

That was very well written and explained. Thank you.


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## changy915 (Nov 14, 2018)

I don't care about food release when I'm using a cleaver. Sure the food may stick but it's gonna get scoop into a plate and stirfried in the wok anyway. That's why the surface area is there.


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## refcast (Nov 14, 2018)

I like to view nakiri along with santoku and to a certain extent, petty, as domestic knives for family members. . .

Chinese cleavers advantages are because of the height and weight, it's easier to force a cut when the edge dulls. Because it's so tall, the maker could also put a mean super thin grind, but that depends on the maker. The nakiri is there mainly for people who like a their wrist parallel to the board, which I feel is the most "stable" or "friendly" for domestic type of cutting expections. Whereas having that slight angle downward for gyuto is great for slicing and tip work and pushing down harder. And the height for cleavers, which makes me raise my shoulder wayyy more, is great for using all that force from my arm and shoulder moving that huge chunk of a knife to chop.

Nakiri is a great casual knife. Chinese cleaver is a great bulk chop prep knife for mincing meat and veg.


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## Grunt173 (Nov 14, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> I'M GLAD YOU ASKED!
> 
> I've been waiting so long for this day
> 
> ...


Chef,
I bet you would be fun to have around sitting by a camp fire.I like your way with words.


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## XooMG (Nov 14, 2018)

I think I like a fatter nakiri with a beefier edge, and a somewhat thinner cleaver.


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## tgfencer (Nov 14, 2018)

As characteristically amusing as Chef's answer is, its still only anecdotal. Cleavers and nakiri are different beasts and you need to your own judgment on your preferences to decide if you aren't willing to try both. (Which you should since you can get cheap version of both to at least give you a general idea of the style.) 

I personally like longer and heavier nakiri with a convex grind, because the extra weight and (hopefully) give them a different enough feel and solidness that you aren't just using a 210 gyuto without a tip.

As for cleavers, I like them with a thinner grind, to help balance out the height and weight. But to each their own.


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## banjo1071 (Nov 14, 2018)

Why not have both:
https://knifewear.com/products/moritaka-ishime-mega-nakiri-165mm


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## esoo (Nov 14, 2018)

banjo1071 said:


> Why not have both:
> https://knifewear.com/products/moritaka-ishime-mega-nakiri-165mm



Well, there is also this: http://www.knivesandstones.com/kuro...nakiri-175mm-aogami-super-stainless-cladding/

As well Sugimoto also have a small cleaver (the SF4030)


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## Chef Doom (Nov 14, 2018)

Grunt173 said:


> Chef,
> I bet you would be fun to have around sitting by a camp fire.I like your way with words.


Your praise makes it all worthwhile.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 14, 2018)

XooMG said:


> I think I like a fatter nakiri with a beefier edge, and a somewhat thinner cleaver.


Get a double bevel Deba, the single bevel's evil twin brother. It will cost you though.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 14, 2018)

banjo1071 said:


> Why not have both:
> https://knifewear.com/products/moritaka-ishime-mega-nakiri-165mm


Overpriced imitation of a vegetable cleaver.


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## Mucho Bocho (Nov 14, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> Overpriced imitation of a vegetable cleaver.



Make sure you send it to Dave M for sharpening and finishing. He’s got a thing for Moritaka’s. [emoji4]


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## Chef Doom (Nov 14, 2018)

Hahaha only if you want to raise his blood pressure with the infamous overgrinds.


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## Mucho Bocho (Nov 14, 2018)

Indeed was my Nakiri that inspired the infamous “the madness has to stop...” thread. Ah the good ole days.


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## Keith Sinclair (Nov 14, 2018)

Doom you forgot to mention that two handing a single cleaver one on handle & other on spine you can smoke other blades in many chopping duties.

Thanks for your no holds bared cleaver support

I like cleavers so much once bought for cheap 9 old carbon cleavers from a guy here in Hawaii to restore. Some of those 50+ yr. old cleavers had awesome grinds. Thick at the spine thinning all the way to the edge.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Nov 14, 2018)

I would add a pro


XooMG said:


> I think I like a fatter nakiri with a beefier edge, and a somewhat thinner cleaver.



Had a Mario Ingoglia beefier nakiri W2 steel made with that kind of thought exactly.

To me, nakiris feel the right tool to chop, more balanced in chopping than gyutos.


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## Barmoley (Nov 14, 2018)

It sounds like for some people cleaver becomes the main knife replacing a gyuto. Do people use nakiri in such manner or is it more specialized. I am asking in general of course, special cases exist everywhere.


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## Xenif (Nov 14, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> It sounds like for some people cleaver becomes the main knife replacing a gyuto. Do people use nakiri in such manner or is it more specialized. I am asking in general of course, special cases exist everywhere.


I use my nakiri(s) as my main knife, especially for Asian cuisine; which nakiri depends on mood and ingredients I will cut.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Nov 14, 2018)

In my case, definitely more specialized (chopping and dicing), not really a gyuto substitute in all areas. A nakiri doesn't feel like the right tool for carving or slicing big meats.


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## Paraffin (Nov 14, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> It sounds like for some people cleaver becomes the main knife replacing a gyuto. Do people use nakiri in such manner or is it more specialized. I am asking in general of course, special cases exist everywhere.



A nakiri might replace a gyuto if you're a vegetarian, but I'm a confirmed carnivore and a nakiri isn't a good meat knife. I only use it for veg. 

I don't use a gyuto either, but that's because I prefer using a 190mm long petty/mini-sujihiki for soft protein (meat and fish) instead of a gyuto. For me, a narrow mini-suji blade is better for trimming silverskin on beef and pork, butterflying chicken breast, or trimming fish. Just feels like the right tool for the job when working with any kind of soft protein. The only time I haul out a different knife for meat is when I need an old Wusthof slicer for something big, or a Chinese cleaver (a matched pair actually) for chopping pork. That's only once in a while though. Everyday use is the nakiri for veg, and a mini-suji for protein.

I don't mind switching knives for specialized uses. I've never felt that one knife size and blade shape should do it all, but then I'm "just" a home cook and I have that luxury. If I was a line cook it would be different, I'm sure.


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## Paraffin (Nov 14, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> I'M GLAD YOU ASKED!
> 
> I've been waiting so long for this day
> 
> Bellow is the rundown.



I've been waiting for it, and you didn't disappoint! 

A few selected rebuttals from Camp Nakiri on the Con section:



> 3. No Blade Tip - Being circumcised, you find that you long for that extra foreskin. It's like you are missing something. A part of you that had so many benefits, yet someone somewhere made the decision for you that you didn't really need it. Just doesn't feel the same.



If there isn't a tip, then what exactly am I cutting with, when I angle the nakiri up for draw slicing?

A tip can work fine at more than an acute angle if it's sharpened correctly, and I find that a curved nakiri tip has a smoother feel on the board when draw-slicing. It doesn't dig in as much as a 90 degree acute point. The front curve is plenty thin and sharp enough to start a draw cut in something leathery like a Fresno chili. You don't need an acute point for that.



> 4. Versatility - Is anybody actually using their Nakiri to slice up meat? Debone chicken? Has anyone even thought about it. I did once and the mere thought left me feeling empty and hopeless. Like I didn't deserve the better knives I had more suited for the job.



Straw Man argument.  Nobody is suggesting that a nakiri is versatile, or that it's good for meat. It's a specialized knife, good for what it does, and that's general veg prep. I haul out my long petty/mini suji when slicing protein because doing that with a nakiri would be silly.



> 9. Unforgiving Edge - Unlike the Cleaver where the weight of the blade helps with the cutting motion, or the Gyuto which dulls in sections allowing you to cheat by moving starting at the heel or closer to the tip, you will feel the dullness of a Nakiri very quickly due to the tendency to make board contact with most of the edge at every chop, slice and dice. It is that sinking filling of pending DOOM!



Not in my experience. It's a question of good technique and the proper cutting board. When I'm chopping garlic (whack-whack-whack) I'm flipping the blade up and down with just barely enough board contact on each whack to get through the garlic pieces. Just a very light touch on the board is all it takes, not trying to murder the board with each whack. I'm still letting the weight of the blade do most of the work, it's just _under control_. I don't sharpen my nakiri any more often than my other knives in the same steel from the same maker, that get used just as often.

Another point not specific to nakiri (but it's relevant) is that I use soft hinoki boards for cutting veg, Those boards are very easy on the blade edge. Your mileage may vary on plastic or hardwood endgrain boards, but a light chop will still help with edge retention.


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## KenHash (Nov 14, 2018)

Just my 2 cents but I don't see any point in comparing a Chinese Caidao (vs) with a Japanese Nakiri. A Caidao can and is used on and for just about everything other than where a Gudao may be needed. Whereas a Nakiri is used to cut vegetables, and only vegetables...no meat, no fish. The usage is different and reflects the differences between traditional Chinese and Japanese cuisine preparation. Apples and oranges.


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## KenHash (Nov 14, 2018)

repeat


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## Chef Doom (Nov 14, 2018)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Doom you forgot to mention that two handing a single cleaver one on handle & other on spine you can smoke other blades in many chopping duties.
> 
> Thanks for your no holds bared cleaver support
> 
> I like cleavers so much once bought for cheap 9 old carbon cleavers from a guy here in Hawaii to restore. Some of those 50+ yr. old cleavers had awesome grinds. Thick at the spine thinning all the way to the edge.


I completely forgot about the two handed technique.

Never found a vintage cleaver but I assume it is much like vintage caste iron cookware. They say it was better quality iron at the time but, without hijacking the thread, it was due to the following.

1. American labor use to be cheap so more man hours was put into producing pans.

2. A lot more competition meant more effort had to be put into the process to stay competitive. I heard vintage lodge is thinner, smoother and lighter than today's production.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 14, 2018)

Barmoley said:


> It sounds like for some people cleaver becomes the main knife replacing a gyuto. Do people use nakiri in such manner or is it more specialized. I am asking in general of course, special cases exist everywhere.


A nakiri in itself is not a specialized knife. That is a common misconception people make. You can make it specialized based on your own habits and routine, but that is not the original intention.

Like most double bevels, it is a general purpose knife with no real specification. They may say it is a vegetable knife for marketing purposes. You may not use it to slice a roast but you could dice up chicken meat easily.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 14, 2018)

Paraffin said:


> If there isn't a tip, then what exactly am I cutting with, when I angle the nakiri up for draw slicing?
> 
> Straw Man argument.  Nobody is suggesting that a nakiri is versatile, or that it's good for meat. It's a specialized knife, good for what it does, and that's general veg prep. I haul out my long petty/mini suji when slicing protein because doing that with a nakiri would be silly.
> 
> Another point not specific to nakiri (but it's relevant) is that I use soft hinoki boards for cutting veg, Those boards are very easy on the blade edge. Your mileage may vary on plastic or hardwood endgrain boards, but a light chop will still help with edge retention.



It is not a tip, it is a corner. Otherwise, a gyuto has 2 has two tips. 1 at the front point and 1 at the heel. If you can agree with this observation than you may have a point.

The thing is, a double bevel knife is suppose to be versatile. I would say, in theory, not use a yanagiba on a roast with a hard crust. Let the suji make the sacrifice, but what would you recommend I use a nakiri for to save the edge of an usuba?

Using soft boards to save your edge is cheating.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 14, 2018)

KenHash said:


> Just my 2 cents but I don't see any point in comparing a Chinese Caidao (vs) with a Japanese Nakiri. A Caidao can and is used on and for just about everything other than where a Gudao may be needed. Whereas a Nakiri is used to cut vegetables, and only vegetables...no meat, no fish. The usage is different and reflects the differences between traditional Chinese and Japanese cuisine preparation. Apples and oranges.


Because people do because they look similar. Part of my argument was that people misunderstand the concept of a double bavel knife in general. Think about the fact that almost every nakiri follows a similar shape even though usubas have multiple shapes and profiles. Partly because of the santoku market.


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## KenHash (Nov 14, 2018)

I certainly agree that they "look" similar. But I suspect that if one watches each of them in use for a while the difference may
dilute that "similarity". Just my opinion. My understanding is that the double bevel Nakiri is a recent invention, starting in the Meiji era (1860-1890s) around the same time as when the Gyuto came about based on a French Chef's knife as a model. For that reason both Gyutos and Nakiris all follow a similar shape throughout the entirety of Japan.
Usuba's do come in various shapes because they are much much older than Nakiris or Gyutos. Although the main split would be the Kanto blunt end, and the rounded Kansai Kamagata. The change in the seat of Government from Kyoto to Edo (Tokyo) at the time may also have influenced the wide acceptance of the Kanto style blunt end for the Nakiri.

I'm still not sure if the Santoku developed from the Kamigata Usuba, or it was a deliberate effort to combine the benefits of both the Gyuto and Nakiri into one knife, or maybe both.


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## Paraffin (Nov 14, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> The thing is, a double bevel knife is suppose to be versatile.



Wait, what??!

Where is that written in stone? I have three Yoshikazu Ikeda double-bevel knives -- a 165mm nakiri, a 190mm long petty, and a 115mm short petty ("paring knife"). All in the same steel by the same maker, with different grinds; a thicker convex grind on the nakiri, thinner on the petty knives. You're telling me that the maker intended all these double-bevel knives to be "versatile" and not used for different purposes in the kitchen? C'mon... 



> I would say, in theory, not use a yanagiba on a roast with a hard crust. Let the suji make the sacrifice, but what would you recommend I use a nakiri for to save the edge of an usuba?



Usuba and nakiri are completely different knives for different purposes, not clones where the only difference is single vs. double bevel. Usuba is for hand-cutting specialized Japanese presentation vs. nakiri as a general board work knife that can work with any cuisine, not just Japanese. I've owned a high-end usuba in the past, I know what the difference is.



> Using soft boards to save your edge is cheating.



Hah! Never change, Doom!


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## Chef Doom (Nov 15, 2018)

Paraffin said:


> Wait, what??!
> 
> Where is that written in stone? I have three Yoshikazu Ikeda double-bevel knives -- a 165mm nakiri, a 190mm long petty, and a 115mm short petty ("paring knife"). All in the same steel by the same maker, with different grinds; a thicker convex grind on the nakiri, thinner on the petty knives. You're telling me that the maker intended all these double-bevel knives to be "versatile" and not used for different purposes in the kitchen? C'mon...



I'm not speaking about the actions of a specific knife maker or what his specific intentions are. I'm speaking in generalizations. Just because some bread makers makes gluten free bread for some people who are allergic to gluten doesn't mean that bread is not generally made out of wheat.




Paraffin said:


> Usuba and nakiri are completely different knives for different purposes, not clones where the only difference is single vs. double bevel. Usuba is for hand-cutting specialized Japanese presentation vs. nakiri as a general board work knife that can work with any cuisine, not just Japanese. I've owned a high-end usuba in the past, I know what the difference is.



I know they are different, but the Nakiri was still inspired by the Usuba to do more general things than the intentions of the Usuba and the cooking style that it was made for. If you are trying to make paper thin daikon you are better off using an Usuba vs trying to find a really thin Nakiri and sharpening at a very low angle.


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## Paraffin (Nov 15, 2018)

Chef Doom said:


> I know they are different, but the Nakiri was still inspired by the Usuba to do more general things than the intentions of the Usuba and the cooking style that it was made for. If you are trying to make paper thin daikon you are better off using an Usuba vs trying to find a really thin Nakiri and sharpening at a very low angle.



I agree, and I'd have kept my usuba if I was doing anything like fancy daikon sheets.

As a general-purpose vegetable knife, a nakiri is restricted at the two extremes: It's not thin enough for fancy usuba cuts, and the shape doesn't lend itself to even more general-purpose work like cutting meat. Which you could do with a gyuto, or a Chinese cleaver if you're into that. For me, it still works nicely within those restrictions when I'm cutting veg.


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## parbaked (Nov 15, 2018)

I don't use either but think I understand the historical difference:

Nakiri dates to a time when the Japanese diet at home was mainly whole fish and vegetables.
The two knives required were a deba and a nakiri.
I think usubas were more for professional kitchens.

Chinese had a more diverse diet in terms of meat and poultry, so they use the Chinese cleaver for everything.

What I don't understand is why a Chinese cleaver is considered so effective at meat and fish whereas the nakiri is considered useless for anything other than vegetables.


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## Paraffin (Nov 15, 2018)

parbaked said:


> I don't use either but think I understand the historical difference:
> 
> Nakiri dates to a time when the Japanese diet at home was mainly whole fish and vegetables.
> The two knives required were a deba and a nakiri.
> I think usubas were more for professional kitchens.



There's some background in this post on the history of Japanese knife types:

https://cheftalk.com/threads/some-basics-on-japanese-knife-history-long.56934/

Assuming this is accurate (I don't have other sources), the important distinction here with Japanese vs. Chinese traditions are that early Japanese knives were either designed for vegetables (nakiri/usuba) or for fish (deba). No such thing as a general-purpose knife for both veg and protein. In fact, for a long time you weren't officially supposed to eat any meat or fish at all, although a lot of that was going on anyway, when it was available. 



> Chinese had a more diverse diet in terms of meat and poultry, so they use the Chinese cleaver for everything.



I'm not sure the diet was more diverse, although it would vary by region. China is huge, and naturally you get more seafood near the coasts, some river fish inland, and then beef up in the Muslim Northwest. What I've read of the history of Chinese cuisine is that meat was available but in small quantities, often seasonal or only for special celebrations. At any rate, they didn't have the cultural proscription in Japan against having two different knives for veg and protein that should never be mixed. So one big cleaver in both thin and thicker versions was the traditional knife for home and restaurant kitchens. 



> What I don't understand is why a Chinese cleaver is considered so effective at meat and fish whereas the nakiri is considered useless for anything other than vegetables.



Personal opinion here -- there isn't just one way to cut up meat and fish. The _shape_ of a nakiri works fine if you're vertical chopping a pile of pork into mince, which is a major ingredient in Chinese cooking. But that works even better if the blade is larger and heavier, like a Chinese cleaver. It's why I bought two cheap Chinese cleavers just for that one thing -- chopping pork. 

However, in my experience it's better to have a smaller, narrower blade when draw-slicing horizontally to butterfly chicken breasts, or filleting and de-skinning fish, that sort of thing. It's about surface drag. A narrow blade with less surface area than a nakiri or Chinese cleaver slides more easily through soft protein. So I don't use a nakiri for that, I use a long petty/mini-suji. 

You _could_ do this with a Chinese cleaver, you'd just have more drag from the larger surface area. I think it's worth noting that these operations like butterflying chicken or skinning fish aren't a typical form of Chinese food prep for meat and fish. The amounts of meat are small, cut in small pieces or chopped, and fish is often cooked whole without removing the skin. The cleaver works in Chinese cuisine because the knife and the dishes have co-evolved together.


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## Noodle Soup (Nov 15, 2018)

One of the things I noticed in Cambodia was many of the meat cutters used Thai Kiwi versions of the Nakiri for just about everything but heavy chopping. Butchering is not something I would normally think of the Nakiri excelling at.


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## gman (Nov 15, 2018)

i agree with some of the things Chef Doom is saying, but feel like i need to disagree with others. but instead of going point by point i'll just say this:

the proper comparison is Chinese cleaver to gyuto. both are single knives that could be used to prepare a whole meal. so any differences between a cleaver and a nakiri are irrelevant. 

if i wanted to prepare a whole meal using two knives, with neither being a gyuto, i would chose a nakiri and a sujihiki, for veg and proteins. is a nakiri inferior to a usuba? maybe, but i think there are more reasons to use a double bevel than making the edge more robust or the knife more versatile. for one thing, not everyone has the skill to make a straight cut with a single bevel, so a nakiri has a clear benefit there.


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## Mucho Bocho (Nov 16, 2018)

Be nice of Jon or Osaka Joe or Moog would chime in here. I like all this been said, funny how we justify our uses and just goes to prove that there are many ways to skin a cat. I used to be a nakiri hater till I found the love in one, now I grab for it often. I have a Chinese clever too but the steel is too soft to really hold an edge so its relegated to rough tasks. A gyuto is not a replacement for a nakiri but I think its quire a stretch to call a nakiri a lazy's cooks Usuba.


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## Chef Doom (Nov 16, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> Be nice of Jon or Osaka Joe or Moog would chime in here. I like all this been said, funny how we justify our uses and just goes to prove that there are many ways to skin a cat. I used to be a nakiri hater till I found the love in one, now I grab for it often. I have a Chinese clever too but the steel is too soft to really hold an edge so its relegated to rough tasks. A gyuto is not a replacement for a nakiri but I think its quire a stretch to call a nakiri a lazy's cooks Usuba.


 They have given out enough free advice for you ungrateful fools on this forum. And why would Jon repeat things he already said a dozen times on a dozen different threads. You will only

A. Silently disagree and move on to another thread

B. Ask for further clarification that will take precious time away from porn, edibles and video games

C. Start a pointless debate about metalurgy, like we need another one of those.

D. Thank Jon for his input only to forget what he said 2 days from know and then ask him the same questions 6 months from now.

You know, KKF does have a search function. Sure it's not Google level but it should be used anyways.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Nov 16, 2018)

Mucho Bocho said:


> I used to be a nakiri hater till I found the love in one, now I grab for it often.



Which one did the trick?


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## Xenif (Nov 16, 2018)

Regardless of what opinions people have on them; I still love all my Nakiri, they are more than just a flat rectangle.


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## Ruso (Nov 16, 2018)

The last Nakiri is a beast! What size is it?


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## Xenif (Nov 16, 2018)

Ruso said:


> The last Nakiri is a beast! What size is it?


Heiji Semi Stainless 210, the one that started it all, thanks to a forum member


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