# Help designing first time knife work shed



## Johan Grönstedt (Mar 25, 2021)

Hello dear KKF!

My wife and I recently bought a country house. 
On the property stands a shed. Today it's not much but it is somewhat insulated and has power.
Some of you might have seen my previous post where I famously was doing some light blade mods and handle work from my kitchen sink. 

The shed means it is time to level up from sink-duty to bigger and more power-tooly paths. 

Here is where I need your help. 

I know the shed dimensions. 
I have a rough budget and a willingness to invest over time. 
I plan to be able to do stock removal kitchen knives (at least for the foreseeable future)
I would like to be able to heat treat myself, but maybe budget demands initially I send out for HT
*I would like to get input on the shop layout, what tools to invest in and in what order and any other tips you feel might be relevant*
My plan is not necessarily to join the professional makers amongst our dear forum. But rather to indulge my growing hobby! 
I'm not quitting my job and will only be able to work during weekends. I have 2 kids mind you so I won't be that much in reality. 
But it is by far my biggest interest so I am happy to keep on investing in it.

My budget is roughly €2000 for the first investment, cash I have right away. After that, I'm happy to invest roughly the same again over a period of time. 
Much more than that probably means start selling knives and going from hobby to something more, and that is not necessarily the plan right now. But who knows, right  

Here is the design I have in mind:





As you can see, space is at a premium. No doubt a lot better than a kitchen sink, but still pretty tight. 

I've tried to think of it as a clean side and a dirty side, where I want to be able to primarily work sitting on the clean side and standing on the dirty.
Probably having both a table saw and a band saw is a bit over the top for knife making, but I will do a lot of general maintenance and small builds around the house based in the shop as well, so would like to have those tools at hand.

*So - what have I missed? *
What are some smarter solutions? 
Who can point me to a HT oven that isn't ruining my finances? 
How big of a problem is it not to have any running water in the shop?

All the best and many thanks for all the help!
/Johan


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## RDalman (Mar 25, 2021)

Things you can skip imo; table saw, compressor and disc grinder(you need that bench space next to the 50x2000 anyway). And if you can, make a dust extraction right out through the wall. Go generous on belt storage. Go with touchmark(stämpel) instead of etched logo, email artgravyr.. 
On facebook there's a polish guy selling budget grinders, I think Marcin Juha is his name. Carls.nu for belts. There's some talk on budget heat treat kiln on fb group "knivslöjd" so look there for that. You can go cheap on wood bandsaw and drill press initially (like jula). Get a 300 mm "ribbed" contact wheel for your grinder and use that for 95% of blade work. Platens suck esp soft iron ones (but glass is a bit icky/ dangerous and you want to really do it proper if you're gonna go that route) 
Good mask and protections!


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## TonyZ (Mar 25, 2021)

Not a knife maker but I second Robin's final point, good mask and PPE. If this is a space you will be spending a lot of time working in, make sure that you are able to manage dust and protect yourself. You only have one set of lungs, eyes, hands etc. for the rest of your life and you can't exactly remove particulate from your lungs (a good example is silicosis, im not too familiar with metal dust but we treat it the same as silica at work). Same goes for the kiddos if they want to be a part of the hobby.


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## McMan (Mar 25, 2021)

Fold-down cot and mini beer-fridge.
If you end up spending too much time in the shed by choice, you might end up spending some time in the doghouse shed not by choice...


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## Johan Grönstedt (Mar 26, 2021)

Hi guys, 

Awesome feedback! Can't thank you enough. Here is iteration v2. 




Moved some stuff around
Work area under window for better light
HT Oven went to clean side
Band Saw went to dirty side
Wall mounted buffer to get more space for larger wood projects at centre table
Relocated some storage stuff

Added some dust extraction
I need to dig into this further, seems like there is a lot to learn and to think through

Kept table saw, not only knives will be produced in the shop so feels like a must for me
Also kept the disc sander since I already have and actually quite like it. Maybe it gets tossed after I get the 2x72...
*A couple of Questions:*


RDalman said:


> Get a 300 mm "ribbed" contact wheel for your grinder and use that for 95% of blade work.


Is the 300 mm what you use for your S-grinds? Seems a good skill to pick up to understate it  
Tack Robin för att du tar dig tiden, verkligen uppskattat. Ser upp till dina skills enormt.

*When it comes to respirator, are there any recommendations? *
Full mask with integrated eye protection or more just mouth cover? 
Looking currently at 3M - feels like it's worth spending the money for the good stuff here?

*Lighting - any recommendations?*
I think there is like a single bulb in the ceiling currently, so need to completely redo this. Any ideas / best practice?


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## applepieforbreakfast (Mar 26, 2021)

Where/how are you going to quench? 

A quench tank or plates wouldn't take up much room, but it's probably easier to consider placement now, especially because space is at a premium.


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## Johan Grönstedt (Mar 26, 2021)

applepieforbreakfast said:


> Where/how are you going to quench?
> 
> A quench tank or plates wouldn't take up much room, but it's probably easier to consider placement now, especially because space is at a premium.



Actually great Question. 

I'm still new to all of this but was hoping to primarily plate quench. 
Happy take input here, but the shed is built from wood and somehow it just feels safer in that environment? 
Maybe one of those newbie seems-to-make-sense-but-makes-zero-sense-in-reality things 

In that case I had planned to build some sort of plate fixture that could be installed when heat treating on top of the wood working bench. And that could be removed more generally. Feels like heat treating is something that you would do a couple of blades at the time since getting the oven up to temp takes time and energy? But in truth, I'm really out of my depth here. 

So in summary. I don't know and probably need help


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Mar 26, 2021)

You probably know this, but I've used up your initial budget long before filling the dirty side bench.

On the other hand, a start is a start. Congrats on your project.


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## Johan Grönstedt (Mar 26, 2021)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> You probably know this, but I've used up your initial budget long before filling the dirty side bench.



Haha you know you have arrived at a manly pursuit when the difference between your hobby and a financial sink-hole seems narrow 

Joking aside, I'm not that far off _(recognizing that building the shop is probably a never ending investment....)_

My plan is to invest in 3 phases. 

*Phase 1 is to get going*_ = total cost € 2325_

General build costs + lighting
Respirator, Dust collection & Vacuum, PPE & Fire Safety
2x72 grinder (to the door new from Poland €1000 w 2,2 kw motor and VFD)
Drill Press
*Phase 2 is about creature comforts and woodworking* _= total cost € 525_

*Phase 3 is about get Heat Treatment inhouse*_ = total cost € 1600_

Here is the current budget, total € 4450


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## RDalman (Mar 26, 2021)

Go with the full face with visor yes I believe. Glasses and the basic filter one is no fun. The 1000 eur sundström sr500(what I use) or similar is nice though, but maybe not your no 1 prio.


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## Johan Grönstedt (Mar 26, 2021)

RDalman said:


> The 1000 eur sundström sr500(what I use) or similar is nice though, but maybe not your no 1 prio.


Haha maybe not 

Did you see the Q regarding the size contact wheel you typically use for you S-grinds @Robin? Was it the 300 mm you recommended or is that more for general grinding/shaping?


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## RDalman (Mar 26, 2021)

Johan Grönstedt said:


> Haha maybe not
> 
> Did you see the Q regarding the size contact wheel you typically use for you S-grinds @Robin? Was it the 300 mm you recommended or is that more for general grinding/shaping?


It's the only one I use yes. It's good to learn doing almost everything blade wise on it. It grinds faster cooler and extends belt life a ton compared to platen.


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## Johan Grönstedt (Mar 26, 2021)

RDalman said:


> It's the only one I use yes. It's good to learn doing almost everything blade wise on it. It grinds faster cooler and extends belt life a ton compared to platen.


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## gregfisk (Mar 27, 2021)

One thing that I would recommend is installing French cleats on the walls. Then you can build small shelves or boxes or anything else to store tools and supplies. It’s a great way to utilize a small space and get the most out of it. I built a propane HT oven and burner myself. It is easy and not very expensive and you don’t even need to weld.


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## gregfisk (Mar 28, 2021)

Something else I should add about French cleats is they allow you to change your layout in minutes. As you get new tools and your shop changes you can move your equipment around on the wall easily. That way if you want do something like move your 2x72 grinder to the other end of the shop you can move your belts to another wall with French cleats.


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## Johan Grönstedt (Mar 28, 2021)

Actually thats quite nice @gregfisk - thanks for the suggestion! Seems pretty simple and flexible all round


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## VICTOR J CREAZZI (Mar 28, 2021)

RDalman said:


> Platens suck esp soft iron ones (but glass is a bit icky/ dangerous and you want to really do it proper if you're gonna go that route)
> Good mask and protections!


I'm with you on disliking platens. I haven't used mine ever since getting some big diameter wheels and 9" sanding discs.

What is the safety hazard with glass backed platens? I've actually never heard that.


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## ian (Mar 28, 2021)

RDalman said:


> It's the only one I use yes. It's good to learn doing almost everything blade wise on it. It grinds faster cooler and extends belt life a ton compared to platen.



Do you ever grind convex?


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## RDalman (Mar 29, 2021)

VICTOR J CREAZZI said:


> I'm with you on disliking platens. I haven't used mine ever since getting some big diameter wheels and 9" sanding discs.
> 
> What is the safety hazard with glass backed platens? I've actually never heard that.


If it chips or cracks.. Instant glass shards flying 30m/s.


ian said:


> Do you ever grind convex?


Yes, usually use a slack section then near upper wheel on platen.


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## northside (Mar 29, 2021)

Johan Grönstedt said:


> Actually great Question.
> 
> I'm still new to all of this but was hoping to primarily plate quench.
> Happy take input here, but the shed is built from wood and somehow it just feels safer in that environment?
> ...



I strongly recommend starting off with simple high carbon steel like 1075/84. Both of those steels will require an oil quench. It is well worth buying a proper quenchant like Houghtons G / K or the Parks equivalents. You want consistency when learning so you can isolate variables. Plate quenching is for stainless steels.

Keep your touchmark as simple and small as possible if you are going to hot stamp it. It makes a huge difference in simplicity to be able to apply a circular stamp (like mine) that you can stamp in any orientation. Aligning a touch mark perfectly to the spine of your knife is very tricky. You can stamp whilst heat treating but I prefer to use my forge as it’s quick and close to my striking anvil. You will need an anvil to hot stamp. I use a 600 x 100 x 100mm hardened chunk of 1045 steel. Bigger is better. 

You will need a way to cut your steel. A tilting metal bandsaw is best but you can get by with an angle grinder.

Get VFDs for your grinders. They’re essential.

I have a bunch of those cheap IKEA lamps fitted with daylight bulbs. They have articulated arms so you can get them in just the right spot. You can basically never have too much lighting in your workshop.


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## RDalman (Mar 29, 2021)

northside said:


> I strongly recommend starting off with simple high carbon steel like 1075/84. Both of those steels will require an oil quench. It is well worth buying a proper quenchant like Houghtons G / K or the Parks equivalents. You want consistency when learning so you can isolate variables. Plate quenching is for stainless steels.
> 
> Keep your touchmark as simple and small as possible if you are going to hot stamp it. It makes a huge difference in simplicity to be able to apply a circular stamp (like mine) that you can stamp in any orientation. Aligning a touch mark perfectly to the spine of your knife is very tricky. You can stamp whilst heat treating but I prefer to use my forge as it’s quick and close to my striking anvil. You will need an anvil to hot stamp. I use a 600 x 100 x 100mm hardened chunk of 1045 steel. Bigger is better.
> 
> ...


Or touchmark cold on annealed steel is also possible (what I do)


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## northside (Mar 29, 2021)

QUOTE="RDalman, post: 804319, member: 19020"]
Or touchmark cold on annealed steel is also possible (what I do)
[/QUOTE]

good point. I actually started off having my mark laser engraved by a 3rd party. Much easier but does slow the process and adds to production costs.


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