# Hamon line



## preizzo (Apr 28, 2015)

Hi guy's 
Just got a hiromoto honyaki from jck. Any chance to show off bit more the hamono line.? It s there but not so pronounced. 
Tk matteo


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 28, 2015)

Hamon lines can usually be accentuated by using a fingerstone that polishes the harder steel while producing a hazy, matte finish on the softer steel, similar to what is done to a clad blade to produce the kasumi finish.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to determine ahead of time what stone will give the best results. 

I'd suggest asking Maksim (Japanese Natural Stones) if he has any recommendations. I know he sometimes has fingerstones for sale. You might also ask him if the "wa powders" he sells are suitable for this purpose.

Rick


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## preizzo (Apr 29, 2015)

Umhh sounds like it could be vary difficult.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 29, 2015)

preizzo said:


> Umhh sounds like it could be vary difficult.



Not so much difficult as time consuming.


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## CutFingers (Apr 29, 2015)

You could polish it for days and not be happy. Eat drink and be merry, enjoy the blade for it's intended use, not vanity. How does it cut?


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## riba (Apr 29, 2015)

Some links:
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/14109-Let-s-see-some-honyaki-(re)finishes
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ivity-or-whispy-stuff?p=13084099#post13084099

Considering once doing it myself too... 
Hope you are enjoying your gyuto as much as I enjoy mine


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## wind88 (Apr 29, 2015)

After finishing the blade, wouldn't patina quickly develop and makes the hamon line less visible after usage?


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## preizzo (Apr 29, 2015)

Cut great and it s a super laser. 
Only one I can compare to it s the kono HD. Vary happy with it only would like to see more the hamono line &#128532;.


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## supersayan3 (Apr 29, 2015)

http://postimg.org/image/dauue56u3/

I love mine too!
This is the gyuto.
The suji has much more visible hamon, I 'll post pics when I find the chance.
100 years of pain is the life of the head-chef


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## preizzo (Apr 30, 2015)

Mine hamono line it's liter then that one.


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## supersayan3 (Apr 30, 2015)

What is actually important about this knife, as I have understood, after reading some things about Honyakis, is that the Hamon area is small, which means overall surface of the blade is hard-appart from the corner to absorb the vibrations, which means Master Nagao did good job ;-)

Concerning this thing called 'bonding with a knife', a thing beyond words, I feel it with all of Master Nagao knives that I have, amazing tools, and they are so cheap for their value!

I got lucky, even at his last batches, to get some!


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## preizzo (May 1, 2015)

Ok so of its like that I am a lucky guy. 
Want to try it out today at work &#128516; and let see how it works!!


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## chinacats (May 1, 2015)

supersayan3 said:


> What is actually important about this knife, as I have understood, after reading some things about Honyakis, is that the Hamon area is small, which means overall surface of the blade is hard-appart from the corner to absorb the vibrations, which means Master Nagao did good job ;-)
> 
> Concerning this thing called 'bonding with a knife', a thing beyond words, I feel it with all of Master Nagao knives that I have, amazing tools, and they are so cheap for their value!
> 
> I got lucky, even at his last batches, to get some!



Curious where you read about a small hamon being a good thing? Seems most makers do them slightly differently though most make them larger than the Hiromoto...including people that seem to have made many more than Hiromoto...source?


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## aboynamedsuita (May 1, 2015)

Without any additional insight id make an argument that a longer Hamon would be superior. Aesthetics aside, it would mean there is more jigane to absorb impact/shock while in use therefore making it more robust (?). If smaller is superior than it almost seems to defeat the purpose of differential hardening, why not HT the entire blade/tang to 65+HRC


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## drawman623 (May 2, 2015)

supersayan3 said:


> Master Nagao did good job ;-)
> 
> Concerning this thing called 'bonding with a knife', a thing beyond words, I feel it with all of Master Nagao knives that I have, amazing tools, and they are so cheap for their value!
> 
> I got lucky, even at his last batches, to get some!



I enjoyed these words. Moving sentiment

Watanabe san just posted some JNats on his site and commented about bringing out the hamono line with natural stones. It might be a good time to mail him on the subject.


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## supersayan3 (May 3, 2015)

With all respect gentlemen, I mean no offence and no harm to none.

I will explain my point of view, as my common sense dictates me: (About the small hamon, and about why I do not consider Hiromoto Honyaki a cheap knife)

I will also refer to Peizzo's topic about the hamon line.

Concerning the short Hamon: As I read everywhere about the Hamon line, it has the purpose to absorb impact/shock. We all agree that this is fact.
Hiromoto's 'design', after all the years of knife making(all of you, know that the more years you exercise your profession- if you are a creative person and have high goals, the better you become) had the conclussion to do a shorter hamon, not so much paraller to the whole edge, but mostly diagonal. Personally, out of trust for Master Nagao's knowledge and experience(since his Aogami Super knives are superb when it comes to cutting, edge retention and profile, working with them professionally), and respecting his age(a lifetime spent on knife making), I gave some consideration as to why the hamon is shorter and more diagonal. My conclussion is , that since he made western Honyakis, and western cooks use their knives with different cutting moves compared to sushi chefs, that shorter and diagonal Hamon, serves better to absorb vibes - western style. It makes sense to me.

Anyway, I wanted a 21cm Honyaki with western handle. I was about to get a Kikuichimonji, they make it. Eventually I got a Sukenari, since Master Nagao (at the dusk of his knife-making life, considers them as some of the best ever.). What life has taught me, is to follow the advices and wisdom of good professionals. As a carreer cook, I follow the teachings of my elders pro-cooks, and I dont loose doing so.

Why Hiromoto Honyaki is not a cheap knife: 1st. It has the rare western Handle, with a single piece metal bolster- not sandwiched (for a Honyaki, only the Hiromoto and the Kikuichimonji as far as I managed to find). As a western pro cook I find these handles much more to my liking, more durable-better balance.
Had it been mirror polished(+100-150$), had it had rounded spine(+20-50$), had it had a special wood handle(+200$). To ease the spine(not round it, is easy). To mirror polish it, MTC kitchen sells a cheap product that is advertised that you can do it yourself within 15 days. It would had been a great - more beautiful and cosmetic knife, if it had the above, with the exact same cutting performance, and probably a less durable handle and not the perfect ballance it has now.

Now, about Preizzo's question: I think it is more wise and safe to follow drawmans623 suggestion about what Watanabe says.
Doing a research of my own, for how to mirror polish a knife(which will grow the contrast of the hamon, if you dont mirror polish the upper area), Hitachi suggests to mirror polish with diamond, not aluminium or chromium oxide, and a wood working store, called Leevalley, somewhere in USA, has a product called 'diamond lapping film'. I searched for comments about these films from woodworkers, they were very satisfied, suggesting to use the films with water or better yet with camelia oil. That is if you want to experiment. Safe and wise way: Follw what Watanabe says. He spends his life in knife making.

I really enjoy being a memeber of the forums, but if my statements, or enthusiastic extrovert style bothers the forum members here, please send me a PM, and out of respect for the community, I will withdraw. Thank you for your patience


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## chinacats (May 3, 2015)

supersayan3 said:


> With all respect gentlemen, I mean no offence and no harm to none.
> 
> I will explain my point of view, as my common sense dictates me: (About the small hamon, and about why I do not consider Hiromoto Honyaki a cheap knife)
> 
> ...



SS3

No offense taken and please do not take any offense from me asking. My *opinion* is that Hiromoto makes very good/nice knives but that experience making cladded and monosteel blades does not directly translate into experience with making honyaki. I would still be interested in reading something that pointed out the reasoning in the small hamon (but not something written by a vendor that sells his knives).

Your passion regarding Hiromoto knives is something you should feel good about. The fact that others may not exactly share your enthusiasm for the same exact knives is nothing to feel bad about...the knives I enjoy are likely not the same that others with different expectations/experience would choose. As they say, to each his/her own but at least I believe we can all agree about keeping our chosen knives as sharp as possible


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## supersayan3 (May 3, 2015)

Thank you for your kindness Chinacats.

What I wrote about the short hamon, diagonal and not parallel- because it is western type knife - and as such gets different pressure points(look Global-yoshikin first export batches, all cracked), and the rest of the blade area being harder(naturally), are all my personal conclussions, after my personal research.

I am a headchef, not a knife merchant, I represent none, but myself.

Sorry about any confussion, thanks for the sympathy


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## aboynamedsuita (May 3, 2015)

I as well did not mean any offence or aggression in my comment. When I used "argument", I did not use or intent to be received in the context of a hostile situation, but rather in the intellectual/academic sense (Sometimes I forget that not everyone may be accustomed to the same vocabulary due to geographical and cultural differences).

My thought process is based on my understanding of materials science such as bending moments and shear stresses. It's been some time since I've studied this academically and I don't even really use it at the occupational level either. I am always open to hearing other perspectives and supporting information/theory.

I also have a Sukenari Honyaki 240 gyuto (from JCK in fall 2014) and the positive review by Hiromoto and Koki made it an easy sell (I don't own any Hiromoto knives but did my research when I read the review).

Best regards


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## Geo87 (May 3, 2015)

Edit: Retracted my comment.
I'm staying out of this one


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## supersayan3 (May 4, 2015)

Thank you for your kindness gentlemen!

I will try to find an one hour long 'documentary' about japanesse knives, where it shows the first export Globals in the West. All performing fine in Japan, but cracked in the West, close to bolster blade part.

In Japan you slice or you chop. In the West you do the rocking motion.
In the first case, the vibrations go through the whole surface of the blade'equally'. In the second case, they go more to the heel bolster area.

All honyakis, have a long and parallel to the edge Hamon (to absorb the strain from the Eastern way)
In the Hiromoto case, Hamon is shorter and diagonal, wider in the heel bolster area, and going thinner in the way (to absorb the strain of the rocking motion, Western way), leaving the towards the tip side half of the blade, all of it hard.

These are my conclussions


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## supersayan3 (May 4, 2015)

[video=youtube;cESlGT85xHY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cESlGT85xHY[/video]

This is the video.
Watch from minute 23:55
Some of the info, that drove me to conclussions. 
I posted a pic of the Hiromoto Hamon. If you notice, appart from shorter, it is also wider(than other Hamons) in the beginning with diagonal progress, not straight


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## chinacats (May 4, 2015)

I would only add that most people here using J-knives don't rock the blade because that tends to lead to major microchipping with high hrc knives. Guess we can agree to disagree, and assume that both methods will work.

Cheers


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## riba (May 4, 2015)

Personally I find it difficult to understand that _differential_ hardening would matter (much) in a kitchen knife like a yanagiba or gyuto (Katana is of course a completely different story  ).


That said, I really dig my Hiromoto honyaki, great cutter


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## supersayan3 (May 4, 2015)

In yanagiba- sujihiki case I dont get it as well. 
Gyuto, santoku, debas, different stories.

I rock all of my japanese gyutos, even the santokus, none has ever chipped 

This harmonical disagreement...I start to love it


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## natto (May 7, 2015)

riba said:


> Personally I find it difficult to understand that _differential_ hardening would matter (much) in a kitchen knife like a yanagiba or gyuto (Katana is of course a completely different story  ).
> 
> 
> That said, I really dig my Hiromoto honyaki, great cutter




I am not a metallurgist, but to me it makes sense. High grade Ao and Shiro can easily be hardened to more than 65 HRC, to take the finest edge. Hard quenching and tempering around 200°C will do. That is what they are made for, as I understand it. At this hardness steels break so easy, they need protection to become usable. Honyaki protects the hard edge with a softer back. Compared to cladding Honyaki has the advantage of not to be welded, which can harm steels. But there may be more cracks during the quenching process...


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## riba (May 7, 2015)

Are you worrying about real cracks in the knife? I am expecting that if the impact would be so severe, that then a usable kitchen edge would have been long gone before. Chipping is ofcourse more of a concern, but as there is considerable amount of hardened steel before the softer steel, I'd be surprised that the softer steel would help much to absorb enough/much.

But then again, I am pretty clueless about the matter.


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## natto (May 7, 2015)

Yes, its about breaking knives into two. Knocking a hard mortar, dropping the knife or twisting can do that. Such knives may even break by normal use. 

Honyaki means water quenching with moderate tempering to me , high hardness, all this stuff which is about the finer the edge, the better the taste. By such HT this steels achieve over 65HRC and may break, even if you are babying them .

Of course the honyaki can be made with softer quenching and/or higher tempering. Such knives may be real honyaki at lower hardness. This knives may work also without honyaki and cladding. In this this case it's about strengthening the knife without cladding. This ones might do their jobs, but the proper made ones are well known for their good results. 

The fascinating honyaki are the hard ones, made to get the best taste out of the food. Its an art to make them and not easy to beat them.


Edit: This is based on basic steel knowledge and a bit of reading, you are welcome to correct and add facts!


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## bkultra (May 7, 2015)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> Hamon lines can usually be accentuated by using a fingerstone that polishes the harder steel while producing a hazy, matte finish on the softer steel, similar to what is done to a clad blade to produce the kasumi finish.



Here is a picture of the end result of this process done by Jon @ JKI.


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## riba (May 9, 2015)

natto said:


> Yes, its about breaking knives into two. Knocking a hard mortar, dropping the knife or twisting can do that. Such knives may even break by normal use.
> 
> Honyaki means water quenching with moderate tempering to me , high hardness, all this stuff which is about the finer the edge, the better the taste. By such HT this steels achieve over 65HRC and may break, even if you are babying them .
> 
> ...



thanks for your eleborate and kind reply.
unfortunately, I find it difficult to find facts or opinions of 'respected' people. I did find a post of jki when Jon stated that one of the benefits is a higher yield in knives during the making. but for me that only translates to lower prices.


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## riba (May 9, 2015)

bkultra said:


> Here is a picture of the end result of this process done by Jon @ JKI.


now that is seriously nice


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## natto (May 10, 2015)

riba said:


> ...I find it difficult to find facts or opinions of 'respected' people.



Exactly

U. Gerfin from messerforum.net is one of those people. Are you reading german? He wrote a lot to help beginners and experienced knife makers. Is forum stuff, but the sum of it opens a way to understand steels. Maybe nothing about honyaki, but a lot of which method leads to good results with explanation.


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