# Questions about Naniwa superstones after some reading around here



## Kawa (Jul 12, 2020)

Years ago when I started sharpening I had to decide what stones to buy. Soon filtered and went for Naniwa. As I saw it back then, i thought Naniwa had a 'cheap' and a 'premium' line (according to price): superstones and chosera.
I went for the 'cheap superstones' because I didnt know if id like sharpening...
I bought the 220/1000 combo and 2000/5000 combo stone. I sharpened with those for years, but not too many knives (maybe 30-40 in 6 years time...) Only for the last 2 years I started to be more serious. Since Corona my average went up to about 2 knives a week and I guess I'm chasing that rabbit right now that will dive into it's hole... This also led me to subscribing to this forum about 2 weaks ago.

After reading here over multiple topics, I notice the general opinion(s) my questions will be about are mostly:
a) superstones are good for mirror polishing
b) superstones tend to finish on a higher gritt then the number tells you
c) high mirror polish isnt adviced for kitchen knife use. Moslty I read 3/4k max. Unless for yanagiba's and such, which superstones also seem to get related to often.
d) A good edge should be able to shave and be sharp at around 1k

Ok, so where do I start from here...
A long side i bought a chosera 600 and a naniwa professional 400 (obviously to me now one of those wasnt needed), because I wanted to try the 'premium' line, just to test out the difference.
I notice: the chosera/professional are much harder, give a very different feedback (I think its better), the sound is more obvious when Im hitting the right angle... It felt like a better quality stone.
Then I started to read some topics and soon learned that there are just different stones with different hardness, feedback and such, and one isnt better or worse per se.
The thing is, I have nothing to compare my stones to, other then 'low medium gritt chosera/professional' versus 'higher gritt superstones' 

Ok, here come some questions:

1) How is the superstone 1000 being reviewed around here?
I never seem to read this one in advices towards new sharpeners...
My review: it is a very soft stone, which gives a very matte finish. But it's slow, I never start a dull knife on this stone, because I find it cant handle mini-chips or flat spots on the apex. It does feel like the turning point between the coarse and fine stones.... The chosera 600 is almost more 'mirror finished' then the superstone 1000, but the scratches are a lot deeper.
But also: I am not able to get my knives shaving sharp on this stone, which made me conclude for the last few weeks I have lots to learn... I'll come back on this later

2) Why am I liking the finish on my kitchen knives (and from relatives) from the superstone 2000 and even better the 5000?
Mostly i read that a too high finished gritt kitchen knife, about more then 4k I read, doesnt have enough teeth to cut all the food in a nice way. Slides too much etc...
I don't seem to have troubles with that on 2k or 5k. For me. For me, without reading too much in the starter years, i experienced: the higher the finish, the sharper the knife.
Ofcourse I did tomato tests. Also on newspaper tests the higher the gritt, the more silenced and smoother it glides through. Where I can't shave at 1k, I can easily shave at 2k, even smoother at 5k. Why is 1k to 2k such a difference for me?

I have made a leather strop which I applied red rouge to (Dialux bar), which in theory shouldn't be able to do much towards hard knives (since its for gold), but it does wonders for me. It makes the knives scary sharp: easily push cut through newspaper, hears popping. This all ofcourse, on the knives I dont fail on  
Does this say anything about my sharpening?



Ill stop for now, there are more sub-questions I have. But I'd like to see some input and eye-openers maybe... I'll jump onto the answers when the raise new questions..

Thanks for reading so far, you earned a break now!


----------



## kayman67 (Jul 13, 2020)

Starting with softer stones was a plus, in my experience, for anyone. 

I'll try to put some things into perspective. 

This "high" grit polished edge that's not able to cut anything is a myth. It's just that most people don't have enough practice with them and the edges are changed by sharpening more than grit. 

At some point, higher grit stones can deliver shaving edges while lower ones never do. This is because higher grit stones will deal with burr in a more polite manner. This is also a matter of sharpening rather than grit alone. 100 grit of any kind should deliver a shaving edge just fine. 
This also transfers into stropping. I know guys that can never get a clean edge without stropping and this even developed into a connection between stropping and the ability to get a clean edge (as in there's no way to have one without the other). 

While 400 and 600 are very close numbers, for some applications they behave very differently. But I imagine that you don't have to make new bevels for a lot of different knives and will never benefit from these. Just pick one, sell the other. Maybe replace it with Professional 800.


----------



## Kawa (Jul 13, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Starting with softer stones was a plus, in my experience, for anyone.
> 
> I'll try to put some things into perspective.
> 
> ...



Thx.
So to summarize your view, finishing a knife at a very high grit doesn't have to be a problem for kitchen application, but it takes practise to get it done right.




This brings me close to a question my whole OP should lead to..
I'm more into sharpening knives then i'm into using knives. The wife cooks everyday and uses sharp made cheap knives. She doesn't want to be really carefull and such. Sometimes she calls me while cooking, and she lets me do the vegetables, cause I do enjoy cutting vegetables really fine... Then I take my better knives. I'm taking the knife I feel like using that time and don't care for good cutting technique and such. Not saying I'm chopping cartoonstyle or doing bones and things. I'm carefull, but dont ask me what grip im holding or tell me that Im using the wrong knife for this job...

I'm saying this to nuance my next statement a bit, wich may sound strange or plain wrong:
My goal is to get knives as sharp as possible. That's what I like doing. If that may go against what's best for food prep or practical use, I can live with that. No, I will not thin the knives all the way, because the knives still have to be usable for the silly amateur homecook... I dont sacrifice everything for pure sharpness. But under normal 'sharpening rules' I like to go as high as possible on gritt size...

That's why I'm always watching those 10k or 12k stones, but always thought they were a little expensive, but damn one foot is already stuck in the rabbits hole...
My highest stone is the 5k superstone right now.

Will I be dissapointed when I buy a chosera/Shaptonpro/glass in those finishing range compared to a superstone 5000?
I expect them to mirror finish higher and give me an even smoother edge, because of the gritt number. But will they? Since I read superstones finish really high.

So, how does the finish of a superstone 5000 compare to some other 10k/12k stones?


----------



## KingShapton (Jul 13, 2020)

Perhaps you should try the Superstone 12K?


----------



## Kawa (Jul 13, 2020)

KingShapton said:


> Perhaps you should try the Superstone 12K?



That is a stone which is on my list for a while...

Not too expensive to give it a try.
I was under the assumption for a while that the superstones are the 'cheaper line' of Naniwa.. Guess this isnt so, but that their usability/goal/target (dunno the exact word im looking for) is just different... 

True or not?

Still makes me wonder, why ever buy a 10k Chosera for 240,- while you can have a 12k superstone for 80,-?

What makes them differ, how do they compare?


----------



## Michi (Jul 13, 2020)

For kitchen knives, why would you want to use a 12k stone?


----------



## Kawa (Jul 13, 2020)

I know its a bookwork of text, but its in there:
I dont care for the optimal usability of kitchen knives. My wife and I can't even be called amateur cooks. We prep food everyday, thats about it.
(just to make an impression, I exaggerate a bit)

I'm more into sharpening then I'm into cooking (or using knives).
The thing I like about sharpening is to get the thing as sharp as possible.

That doesn't mean I want to prep food with stanley knives or scalpels or such...It's all within perspective.
'Take the knife for what it is, a little thinning if needed is fine, and make it as sharp as possible' That is close to my approach... But im describing a feeling here in a language which is not my main. So it's hard to give the right nuance...


----------



## kayman67 (Jul 13, 2020)

Why 12k? Just because 

But, I'd say don't ever buy the 12k, get the 10k Super Stone. I think this has everything you want and does it better. 

You might also like Shapton Glass 6k HC and even skip both Super Stones (5+10).


----------



## KingShapton (Jul 13, 2020)

Sigma Select II 13k


----------



## Kawa (Jul 13, 2020)

Ill check on those, superstone 10k and sigma 13k. Thanks to you both....

I know I am a little bit a toddler in the 'why why why' fase, but you are all grown ups so you can decide if you want to answer or not  
It's not that I am stubborn in this way, I just like to know why things are happening or how it works.


Kayman: Why are you suggesting the 10k over a 12k? Price vs performance? Does the 12k finish less then 10k? Could you explain, just because I'm curious?


And I still don't get why a professional/chosera 10k is about 240,- and a superstone in this grit is 80,-.


----------



## kayman67 (Jul 13, 2020)

While Chosera 10k performs great, *diminishing returns are terrible *(I mean more than one would expect anyway).
Very expensive problematic stone, with some serious usage problems (same goes for Kramer 10000, even with the base thing going on). It's just prone to shatter. 

At that price point, my choice would be, without thinking twice, one of Suehiro 10k stones. 

But these aren't really needed either. 

Okay, why SS 10k and not 12k. 10k has a much better balance of performance/behaviour for knives. At least for me. I have all 3 finishers (8, 10, 12).


----------



## Knife2meatu (Jul 13, 2020)

@kayman67 You say the Kramer 10k is prone to cracking despite the glass base?


----------



## KingShapton (Jul 13, 2020)

Unfortunately I can't write much at the moment .. I had surgery on my shoulder and typing on a keyboard still causes pain.

Chosera / Professional is the top line from Naniwa .. and the rest is free market economy. The Chosera are good, but I find every stone from the series overpriced after the 1000!


----------



## kayman67 (Jul 13, 2020)

Knife2meatu said:


> @kayman67 You say the Kramer 10k is prone to cracking despite the glass base?



Unfortunately, yes.


----------



## PappaG (Jul 13, 2020)

I really can't help you otherwise to say that sometime I too enjoy sharpening more then the knives themselves.
I have two suggestions: If your going to be practical - Master the stones that you have. Then experiment with different stones to your hearts content; OR just buy all the stones you want. That is what many people on this forum do, me included. I will say that jumping to ultra fine stones if probably not the best idea if you are current a novice at sharpening (I pass no judgment on your skill level!).


----------



## KingShapton (Jul 13, 2020)

PappaG said:


> OR just buy all the stones you want. That is what many people on this forum do, me included.


I own more stones than knives..and I still want more..


----------



## KingShapton (Jul 13, 2020)

PappaG said:


> I will say that jumping to ultra fine stones if probably not the best idea if you are current a novice at sharpening (I pass


Sharpening is a long journey ... the more experienced a sharpener gets, the less he needs high grits ... with enough experience you can get your knives with less high grits scary sharp .... but it takes time ... I'm talking about Years ..


----------



## KingShapton (Jul 13, 2020)

I have to add something:


I understand the desire to get a knife as sharp as possible ... and the approach to using the finest stone with the highest possible grit ... it was the same with me ... and I still do today it every now and then ... just for fun .. and because I also want to use my fine stones every now and then.


----------



## Benuser (Jul 13, 2020)

As long as you're dealing with double-bevelled blades in the Western cuisine, with quite a lot of board contact, going beyond 4k makes no sense, and might even be counterproductive. The Naniwa Pro 3k is equivalent to the Japanese JIS standard of 4k. Hard to get any better. 
A finer grit can be useful for deburring in a few difficult cases, and for maintenance, by refreshing an edge. No need for a large high-grit waterstone, though. You may achieve the same with an unexpensive piece of Belgian Blue, Coticule, or Hard Arkansas, as you're not going to polish entire bevels if not entire blades, but only performing a few edge leading strokes.


----------



## Kawa (Jul 13, 2020)

I think a few who replied here get what I'm saying and understand why I'd like to try a higher finish then 5k. Thx for feedback on stone advice. Once I thought 'the sharper, the better'. I truly understand that is not the case. For me, it's a matter of fun, trying and 'why? just because'.. nothing rational

I also want to thank the other side who are warning me for overpolishing and the fact that I could ruin my kitchenknifes performance, I will keep this in mind.
I will not open a topic 'my new high grit stones make my knife perform worse, help!' 





Which stones to check on is clear for me now.

I'm still wondering why I don't read that much about the 1k superstone? 'Because there are better ones' might be the obvious answer.... but, why why why ?


----------



## ModRQC (Jul 13, 2020)

OP, as much as I understand your commitment to ultimate sharpness no matter what's good for kitchen, in the end how are you going to enjoy the result if you don't have something to cut with it that it enhances, or don't even know what you could cut that makes a difference going up there. Except straight razors - that could be your thing, though sharpening small blades in my experience is boring.

If not I'd just recommend buying a good, versatile, not too expensive finisher like the Rika 5000. I've had joy using it and had it for so little time. It may surprise you - much better and somewhat way nicer to use than my Shapton Pro 5K... but not only that... it does "scary sharp" even with my still limited skills, and not too many effort involved.

Edit: I especially used it on SS knives so far... I seem to read your wife use a lot of cheap made sharp knives. Probably SS. You could have some fun and have some of her feedback too. Perhaps some of your own knives will fit that bill too. The Rika also made Blue #2 scary sharp but I couldn't verify this with many different blades.


----------



## ModRQC (Jul 13, 2020)

And BTW Naniwa SS are soakers, Naniwa Pro are S n' Gs. Not the same material used nor binder. Professional are also more resistant than the old line Chosera.


----------



## Kawa (Jul 13, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> OP, as much as I understand your commitment to ultimate sharpness no matter what's good for kitchen, in the end how are you going to enjoy the result if you don't have something to cut with it that it enhances, or don't even know what you could cut that makes a difference going up there. Except straight razors - that could be your thing, though sharpening small blades in my experience is boring.
> 
> If not I'd just recommend buying a good, versatile, not too expensive finisher like the Rika 5000. I've had joy using it and had it for so little time. It may surprise you - much better and somewhat way nicer to use than my Shapton Pro 5K... but not only that... it does "scary sharp" even with my still limited skills, and not too many effort involved.
> 
> Edit: I especially used it on SS knives so far... I seem to read your wife use a lot of cheap made sharp knives. Probably SS. You could have some fun and have some of her feedback too. Perhaps some of your own knives will fit that bill too. The Rika also made Blue #2 scary sharp but I couldn't verify this with many different blades.



Haha, you hit the spot. That's why I sharpen for friends and family more then for myself. I'm running out of knives. The ones of my own stay sharp because I dont use them often.
Yes, the wife uses mostly cheap SS knives, and a Kai Shun office knife. Lately she told me she likes the Kai Shun office knife a little 'less sharp' because it glides through a potato to much while peeling of the skin. From this, I think she means she want the knife with a little toothier edge for more feedback and control while peeling through a wet potato skin...


On the other hand, why do people collect stamps, or other stupid stuff they will never use


----------



## Kawa (Jul 13, 2020)

I probably should do some more cooking myself...


----------



## Qapla' (Jul 13, 2020)

Here's another possibility: Since you're in Europe, JNS Matsukusuyama stones could be another alternative.


----------



## Kawa (Jul 13, 2020)

Will check on them


----------



## ModRQC (Jul 13, 2020)

Kawa said:


> Haha, you hit the spot. That's why I sharpen for friends and family more then for myself. I'm running out of knives. The ones of my own stay sharp because I dont use them often.
> Yes, the wife uses mostly cheap SS knives, and a Kai Shun office knife. Lately she told me she likes the Kai Shun office knife a little 'less sharp' because it glides through a potato to much while peeling of the skin. From this, I think she means she want the knife with a little toothier edge for more feedback and control while peeling through a wet potato skin...
> 
> 
> On the other hand, why do people collect stamps, or other stupid stuff they will never use



It is probably for best since I used it on hard SS and I do not believe it'll do much good out of soft. Soft gets scary sharp out of Naniwa Pro 800. VG-10, 13C26 as well as Ginsan were sharpened with the Rika - seems a match made in heaven for hard SS.


----------



## Unstoppabo (Jul 13, 2020)

1 vote for Kitayama as a high grit option. Reportedly finishes somewhere between 8-12k with natural stone particles mixed in so it behaves a bit like a jnat. Very reasonably priced and widely used by smiths in Japan for a reason.


----------



## Kawa (Jul 14, 2020)

Thx, I will investigate the rika 5000 (i'm not formiliar with Rika) and the Kitayama aswell.

I can't keep up with all the Japanese words i'm seeing: smiths, mines, knifebrands, stonenames, knifeparts...  

8.37 a.m. long nightshift. off to bed now


----------



## ModRQC (Jul 14, 2020)

Rika is the nickname for Suehiro Cerax 5K.


----------



## Garm (Jul 14, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Rika is the nickname for Suehiro Cerax 5K.


The Rika was actually available long before the Cerax line came along. The Cerax 5k may well be a renamed or rebranded Rika, I wouldn't know.
Great stone though!


----------



## Michi (Jul 14, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Rika is the nickname for Suehiro Cerax 5K.


I'm not sure that's correct. Suehiro offer the 5000-grit Cerax and the 5000-grit Rika. The Rika has a softer feel. They are not the same stone.

I have the Rika 5000, and really like it. But I suspect that the Cerax will work just as well.


----------



## KingShapton (Jul 14, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Rika is the nickname for Suehiro Cerax 5K.


That is not correct. Rika 5000 belongs to the suehiro traditional line, like the Ouka 3000 and the Shiramine 6000.

The Suehiro Cerax 5000 (5050) is a different stone.


----------



## ModRQC (Jul 14, 2020)

Agreed. On their website you’ll find it under Professional Whetstones - Finishing Whetstones.


----------



## ModRQC (Jul 14, 2020)

Sorry OP.

On Suehiro’s website the actual Cerax 5K is described as one that had gained a lot of traction among professionals. That and my vendor putting all of the stones under the Cerax name put me off track.

And about the actual, true Rika, it tends to come with a base that I think sucks very much. It’s cheap, slippery, and hard to integrate with the usual stone holder. I had seen on Amazon that the Rika is supposedly also sold without the base. I thought that was the Cerax as on the website. I wouldn’t know if the standalone version exists, and if it is truly without base at all or just have a plastic plate like the Cerax. If you go for it I advise trying to find the Rika without the base.


----------



## kayman67 (Jul 14, 2020)

These days is more likely to find it without a base.


----------



## Kawa (Jul 14, 2020)

No problem ModRQC.
I appreciate all the help, advice and input.
It makes the world bigger for me without loosing too much focus or getting lost over all the new stuff that comes by


----------



## Ruso (Jul 14, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Rika is the nickname for Suehiro Cerax 5K.


Is it? I believe this are two different stones.


----------



## esoo (Jul 14, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> Sorry OP.
> 
> On Suehiro’s website the actual Cerax 5K is described as one that had gained a lot of traction among professionals. That and my vendor putting all of the stones under the Cerax name put me off track.
> 
> And about the actual, true Rika, it tends to come with a base that I think sucks very much. It’s cheap, slippery, and hard to integrate with the usual stone holder. I had seen on Amazon that the Rika is supposedly also sold without the base. I thought that was the Cerax as on the website. I wouldn’t know if the standalone version exists, and if it is truly without base at all or just have a plastic plate like the Cerax. If you go for it I advise trying to find the Rika without the base.



Rika without Base - Suehiro PN 5000-DN. Readily available on Amazon - the one I got matches the picture from the Suehiro website perfectly.


----------



## mpier (Jul 14, 2020)

I agree with both the Rika and the Kitayama and I would throw in the Chosera 3000k because imo it’s still the best mid grit stone


----------



## ModRQC (Jul 14, 2020)

esoo said:


> Rika without Base - Suehiro PN 5000-DN. Readily available on Amazon - the one I got matches the picture from the Suehiro website perfectly.



All white surface too for the single stone, no inscription? And does it have a plastic plate or is it truly just the stone? 

In my case the Rika with base was on a deal I couldn't refuse. But I hate the base.


----------



## esoo (Jul 14, 2020)

ModRQC said:


> All white surface too for the single stone, no inscription? And does it have a plastic plate or is it truly just the stone?
> 
> In my case the Rika with base was on a deal I couldn't refuse. But I hate the base.



All slightly off white, no inscription with the writing on the cellophane around the stone just as Suehiro says it would be. No Base. Picture matches the Suehiro website. Came with the nagura. Puts a wicked edge on anything I've tried it on. At this point, I've no reason to not believe I didn't get something authentic.


----------



## ModRQC (Jul 14, 2020)

Oh I'm sure you did, and I have no reason neither to doubt about mine - box, stone, papers and waxed sheet top are all authentic and as per what I could see from the website and *reliable* vendors.

I was wary however what it would be ordering from Amazon back then. Chose another vendor instead for the deal on the stone with base - came less expensive in the end, even saved PST. Just hate the base.


----------



## Kawa (Jul 14, 2020)

I'm noticing that the world of stones is a tricky world, especially on amazon/ebay.

If I decide to buy, Im ordering from a European vendor, who has a normal '2020 style' webshop (not the kind of 1995 windows 95 websites...).
But there arent many.
Knivesandtools.nl (.com) dont have Suehiro (5000) or Kitayama.
Meesterslijpers.nl neither...

There aren't many google hits for this subject... seems like a small world. Lo'ts of brandless stones or stones from knifemakers (Kai, Wusthof).. Im not willing to try those.

Gladly I found some vendors in Germany via old topics...

- Maksim (JNS.com / Denmark)
- Cleancut (Sweden)
- feinewerkzeuge.de (Dieter Schmid / Germany)
- Dictum



Anyone who has anything to add maybe?
Advice for or advice against one of those vendors?


----------



## Garm (Jul 14, 2020)

Kawa said:


> I'm noticing that the world of stones is a tricky world, especially on amazon/ebay.
> 
> If I decide to buy, Im ordering from a European vendor, who has a normal '2020 style' webshop (not the kind of 1995 windows 95 websites...).
> But there arent many.
> ...


I've had good experiences with JNS, Cleancut and feinewerkseuge.
The latter added a few packs of gummy bears with my order so all the extra dopamine release made me kinda love Dieter, while I simply like the others.


----------



## KingShapton (Jul 14, 2020)

Kawa said:


> Gladly I found some vendors in Germany via old topics...
> 
> - Maksim (JNS.com / Denmark)
> - Cleancut (Sweden)
> ...


The listed vendors are all good.

If you are looking for a European vendor to buy a Kitayama, take a look at japan-messer-shop.de. But the Kitayama will be more expensive there than if you order it from japan on ebay...


----------



## Luftmensch (Jul 14, 2020)

I'll start by acknowledging you are enjoying the process of sharpening. Thats great! To that end, do what makes you happy.

I'll echo the comment that sharpening above ~4K is not necessary for kitchen knives. It is just a case of diminishing returns. A high grit edge will be taken back down a notch after every contact with the cutting board. In only a few contacts you will be back to something like a 4K finish. That is why people here generally dont bother. But if you enjoy the process of sharpening... sure... chase after it.

I have said this in the past. I'll say it again. Abrasives companies manufacture stones for different target markets. Naturally KKF tends to gravitate towards stones that are 'better' for kitchen knives. In the end all stones are just abrasives in some binding medium - so you can use any stone but may find some aspects of the stone suboptimal. And this brings us to the Naniwa Super Stones.

I use them for razors (1k, 5k, 8k, 12k). From memory, they cut well _when fresh_ but clog up very quickly. They can also feel 'gummy' - I think this is because they have a resin binding medium, not a ceramic one? As a result they don't self-slurry particularly well. Perhaps this is part of the mechanism that provides a high polish? Without refreshing the surface, perhaps at some point they start to burnish rather than cut? Anyway, if you are finding your super stone slow, try refreshing the surface more often. Since the super stones are soft and load up quickly, I dont think they are as _nice_ to use as other stones for kitchen knives. But you can still use them!




Kawa said:


> I'm noticing that the world of stones is a tricky world, especially on amazon/ebay.



Yes and no...

If you follow the "learn to use the tools you have" paradigm it is easy. Choose the grit you need from a reliable brand like Naniwa or Shapton. If you want to support local business buy it from a nearby store or go the other route and find the lowest price online. 

It is difficult if you want to find the 'best' stone. It doesn't exist. The discussion is based on preference and perceived value which differs for everyone. You could end up with 50 stones trying to find the 'best' one. And if that is your hobby... there is nothing wrong with that either!




Kawa said:


> Will I be dissapointed when I buy a chosera/Shaptonpro/glass in those finishing range compared to a superstone 5000?
> I expect them to mirror finish higher and give me an even smoother edge, because of the gritt number. But will they? Since I read superstones finish really high.



I hate to say it... but most likely; yes. To me, the jump from blunt to a 2-4K edge is perceptually far far greater than the jump from a 2-4K edge to a 20K edge. As you go higher and higher.... our ability to detect the difference drops off. Unless you do objective tests with something like a Bess tester, it is hard to definitively say you got the best out of your 12k stone.


----------



## KingShapton (Jul 14, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> It is difficult if you want to find the 'best' stone. It doesn't exist. The discussion is based on preference and perceived value which differs for everyone. You could end up with 50 stones trying to find the 'best' one. And if that is your hobby... there is nothing wrong with that either!


Totally agree!!!!!!


----------



## Kawa (Jul 15, 2020)

Luftmensch said:


> I'll start by acknowledging you are enjoying the process of sharpening. Thats great! To that end, do what makes you happy.
> 
> I'll echo the comment that sharpening above ~4K is not necessary for kitchen knives. It is just a case of diminishing returns. A high grit edge will be taken back down a notch after every contact with the cutting board. In only a few contacts you will be back to something like a 4K finish. That is why people here generally dont bother. But if you enjoy the process of sharpening... sure... chase after it.
> 
> ...




First, thank you for your thorough answer. 

To be honest, what you tell here is exactly the conclusion I made for myself after reading all the answers I was given. And I knew it before. The rational angel on my shoulder is telling me that I shouldn't buy a new stone, since I have a complete range to sharpen kitchen knives till max usability. I never thought or will think that a new stone is what makes my sharpening better.
That emotional child on my other shoulder is yelling 'yeah but, its fun to go higher / so what its of no practical use / buy a new knife aswell, its fun' 
To learn (and accept) the finish my stones give my knives is a good addition for that angel side of the story. I shouldn't approach it to 'autistic', meaning gritt size is an indication and not a law about the actual shininess... If I want or need a result in between what I have now, I can look for some other stones to try, but hey I really dont need it. My stones do the job fine. It's me who is the restriction at this moment.

What you experience with the higher SS is exactly how I feel them, even though I have no actual comparisation to make.
I read a lot that the more soft stones give a slurry/mud. I wondered why my 2k and 5k SS feel very soft to me, but I dont get an actual mud. I thought I rinsed too much in between. But I guess the same rule applies here: accept the fact what the stones do and use that. No slurry, so what?
Yes, they get loaded with metal very fast. It's almost as if you color them with grey. I start with a fresh surface every knife, but I guess I should start to lap in between knifes if needed too -never done this so far, flattening/lapping is for after a knife!-. At some some point I'm starting to shave the loaded metal off the stone, which means I go way too long... See and handle, dont ignore what the facts tell you....
Also the gummy feeling I recognize. Sometimes the words 'plastic feeling' pop up in my head. Not a problem for me, just something I notice

About the SS being 'too slow'. 
I'm not experiencing it as a problem. Also, I cant relate to other high gritt stones.
The slow part for me was more towards the 1000 gritt. The general opinion on this side is that a 1k should be enough to do the more better touch ups, simple repairs and so on. I feel like I want to start all my knive on atleast my 400 or 600 chosera. The 1000 SS isnt able (in my hands) to realy set or refresh the whole bevel...



More generally, I know my sharpening isnt on the best level yet. I get my knives sharp, the better ones scary sharp. But for me on a 1k gritt stone, I obviously see with a loupe whats wrong with the edge (not completely flat all over the edge), but I'm not always able to make it better. 
I'm not on the level that I can hit the disired angle I want to with 100% certainty every time. Everytime I take the knife of the stone for a loupe vision, there is a chance I hit the angle a little flat or high. So I stay in this circle forever: grind, watch, adjust, watch, adjust, watch, adjust... Im not talking about an actual angle difference in a 'microbevel' way, but I see in the light that it's sliiiiightly off at some milimeter parts of the edge. Keeping adjusting the last milimeter makes a burr on the other side eventually, and so the circle continues 
Everytime i put a knife back on the stone, I start too flat and raise the spine till the knife bites, go a ienie mini tiny pinch back and thats my angle. I still estimate it wrong sometimes. Guys, I know this is practise and im totally fine with that.


----------



## mpier (Jul 15, 2020)

What helped me out at the beginning was finding my angle on a wood cutting board first. When it starts to shave the board drop it ever so slightly and use your thumb or pointer finger as a guide depending on which side of the knife your on, even before you switch side or stones test it again. If you are keeping a consistent angle your thumb or finger will lightly touch the stone on every pass.


----------



## inferno (Jul 15, 2020)

i have the ss12k. its the defacto standard finisher for razors. for a good reason.

its a bit slower than the shapton pro 12k.
it clogs faster than the pro (still cuts though)
it polishes slightly better than the pro.
it makes knives truly scary sharp. i mean like you get a bit intimidated when handling them because you know what could very easily happen.


----------



## kayman67 (Jul 15, 2020)

They polish even better when clean.


----------



## MashMaster (Feb 20, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> While Chosera 10k performs great, ........
> Very expensive problematic stone, with some serious usage problems (same goes for Kramer 10000, even with the base thing going on). It's just prone to shatter.
> 
> At that price point, my choice would be, without thinking twice, one of Suehiro 10k stones.


So you seen or know of the Kramer 10000 cracking too like the Chosera. I love the Chosera line up and loved my 10K stone until it spider cracked then cracked, 5K also cracked. I am looking for a new set of stones.

Have you used any of the Gokumyo series stones, more interested in the lower grits (sub 10K) or the Debado Series. I recently posted about Suehiro lets make a series of stone names as confusing as we can.


----------



## kayman67 (Feb 20, 2021)

Yes, it will crack just like the Chosera does. 

I think, in the right circumstances, any water stone has the potential to crack. I've seen a few Shapton Glass lately doing this, in various countries, with no particular scenario that could have been identified as common, making things harder to predict. 

Suehiro made some changes to prevent this, but I don't know how successful. Not that many stones around.


----------



## MashMaster (Feb 20, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Suehiro made some changes to prevent this, but I don't know how successful. Not that many stones around.


Fired instead of magnesium binder, it is why I want to find more about the Gokumyo series, especially lower grits the 10K plus plenty of info on the straight razor users, its luxury all the way but it priced like a rolls royce. The lower grit stones in the series are better priced. Just not much user feedback on them at all.


----------

