# Japanese Blacksmith Tools for Gardening, etc



## HRC_64 (Jun 29, 2018)

Anyone have experience with various blacksmiths /shops eg
OkaTsune, Masamune, Kannenori, Tobisho, etc ?


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## niwaki-boy (Jun 29, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> Anyone have experience with various blacksmiths /shops eg
> OkaTsune, Masamune, Kannenori, Tobisho, etc ?


Yup all three. Whatcha got going?
There’s four oh well ... so yes all four

Edited cause I forgot I had a kanenori.


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## HRC_64 (Jun 29, 2018)

Ha. Awesome. 

I need a new Karikomi shears,
any advice on brands or features
would be useful...


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## niwaki-boy (Jun 30, 2018)

For karikomi if your just doing leaf then masumune is really nice but don’t have a go on older branches that’s where a brand like okatsune comes in. Okatsune is beater stuff like tojiro in a way, I’ve got a few shears that I bought stupid cheap a few years ago and for just hacking away they aren’t bad but steel is on the softer side. I’ve got the kanenori shears that Hida tool sells (bought from one of their old associates), they’re the knuckle buster version. They’re nice steel and have a good long reach and can handle a bit more of a tougher branch than masamune (I have the short handle version). All my tobishos are secatuers of some sort and the best one for karikomi is the barracuda version that Jake sells, just awesome!! Would love Tobisho's curved shears but damn $$$!! I assume you know which ones I’m talking about by the brands you brought up.
Both the masamune and kanenori can get silly sharp and when cleaning be very careful.. ask me go ahead  basically two yanis on sticks w/a pivot!
I do a fair bit of karikomi and lots of various cryptos with a few pine mixed in that are currently kicking my ass.. next week is box karikomi
If you want pics just pm me and I’ll give you a tour...


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## HRC_64 (Jul 1, 2018)

Thanks for all the Info niwaki-boy. The Tobisho 270s you noted are pricey but are on my radar  
I'm really trying to budget for them, because they look so incredibly useful....

As for the Kanenori/Masamune, the catalogs in Japan are extensive. The classic debates here seem to be white/blue, A vs U type handles, and a variant of "laser vs workhorse" grinds. I'd be curious if you have any more colour on what your personal favorites are for style/layout. 

This blogger below (a local japan) and seems to roughly have similar feedback as to how you outlined it. [He has a mix of everything (blue/white steel, long/shor, gate type/a-frame, etc)...]

https://translate.google.com/transl...niwaijiri.com/amazon-uekidougu-karikomibasami

The Oka i've used so far I agree its sort of beater-duty...but capable so good to have around.


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 1, 2018)

You’re welcome.
Gotta love google translate...






Mostly like the short handles for box and the long handles for tree work and always have the barracudas in a holster.
I know my masamunes are white but not sure about the kanenori maybe blue. I bought okastune okubo basami from Dallas bonsai a few years ago and the steel had a flaw which caused the blades to run into each other. They replaced with their house brand which are better but still want to pick up a pair from Watanabe They also let me keep the old pair so I got a pair of beaters. So I guess the theme is get good stuff but also have good thrashers. Where you located?
What links for Japan do have?


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## HRC_64 (Jul 3, 2018)

I was digging around and found several articles 
that may make useful references for future readers.

First, this article on the handle-types of Karikomi Scissors.
(Explaing pro/con of the 'gate type' vs A frame styles.)

Original> https://moritazouen.com/okatune-mongata/
Translated> https://translate.google.com/transl...F-8&u=https://moritazouen.com/okatune-mongata

Second, this is a shop with a detailed Masamune catalog listing (in Japan). I found this useful in the sense that they have almost every variation spelled out, iwith different options for steel, handle length, etc in certain models. There are also variations where change the model number for things like polished vs KU finish.

http://www.zouen-dougu.com/ryoute.html
https://translate.google.com/transl...TF-8&u=http://www.zouen-dougu.com/ryoute.html

Last but not least, Here is also a complete kit for a crafstman in japan, with something like 10 pairs of one-handed pruning tools, and 6 pairs of two-handed type Karikomi shears (which covers trimming and leaf-cutting)

I guess this is why I was having such a hard time picking one pair from all the options 

Original> http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~ikedaya/sample/prune.html
Translated>https://translate.google.com/transl...ww5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~ikedaya/sample/prune.html

This was kind of a long post but I thought it might be useful for people doing research as not much in english is available outside of a couple western vendors.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 3, 2018)

As a bonus, Here is one more Local (japan) craftsman review of Masamune vs Okatsune.

Again confirming what Niwaki-Boy posted upthread--Masamune is a more refined product, perhaps a benchmark above Oka, but Oka is still useful (and a great value) for heavier duty work, even by Professionals.

[edit: I'm not sure how to make the whole quote show up?]



> This time I will introduce the two-handed scissors used by me. I use three depending on the tree species to be pruned and the thickness of the branches.By using scissors differently, it is possible to increase work speed, prevent spilling of blades, extend the life of scissors.
> 
> Let's start with the first one: Kihachi 300 mm of Kashiwa Masamune
> 
> ...


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 3, 2018)

Thanks H! Gotta run out now but I’ll give those a look in a bit. Do you do ladder work in the garden? If so we can get Hasegawa ladders stateside now.. just a heads


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 5, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> I was digging around and found several articles
> that may make useful references for future readers.
> 
> First, this article on the handle-types of Karikomi Scissors.
> ...



That page with the masamunes is awesome.. haven’t seen that many on one page. Dammit now there’s a couple more I want. I didn’t realize they did a curved blade shear... and the prices are very nice. Gotta figure out a way to order from this vendor.
Hrc you need more than one pair.. those are the rules


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## HRC_64 (Jul 5, 2018)

niwaki-boy said:


> Hrc you need more than one pair.. those are the rules



LOL I know, I know.


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## HRC_64 (Jul 5, 2018)

Hey Niwaki, do you have any recommendations for good stones/sickle stones?


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 6, 2018)

Somebody asked the same question in another thread and I recommended broken stones cause you need to shape them to accommodate for the various curves that some blades have, hamaguri and actual blade curve. I’ve always paid super close attention to the way the og edges come ootb, looking for micro bevels is important, then maintain accordingly. 
I also didn’t address your query about knuckle busters vs. bumpers. Some say the bumpers add shock to hands and arms because one can go very fast. On the other hand the free and unobstructed shearing action of kb's gives complete feedback about cuts and because of the potential for that meeting of digits you will slow down thusly develop a better technique. But of course that’s theory and from the peaceful garden expletives can and do fly freely. And as a side note if somebody threatens you while gardening this person would be in deep doodoo with the complete bypass nature of knuckle busters. I’ve always said don’t mess with Japanese gardeners cause the amount of sharp sh*t they have within reach... old ladies with horihori's, tree guys with silky's , karikomi dudes.. it would be a mess 

So anybody reading this thread if you have broken stones, yeah I know .... please pm us. Tia if you do!


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 7, 2018)

This post cost me money... thnx dude! I went to tobisho's site and they have sales links now. Niwaki wasn’t on there way back when and neither was tetsufuku, an' they have the very good crap I couldn’t believe there was a Kanto version of his curved shears (btw low stock = 1). I already knew he only makes like ten of these things a year in off time and that number probably includes the yamagata version. This guy is a legend in the trade... very innovative. This was always one of my favorite pages... http://www.tobisho.jp/process.html for the sheer manipulation of metal


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## HRC_64 (Jul 7, 2018)

Those tobisho's are gonna be sweet...Hinoki handles as well?


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 8, 2018)

HRC_64 said:


> Those tobisho's are gonna be sweet...Hinoki handles as well?


Nope they’re magnolia.. https://www.tetsufuku.com/product/29
Masamune is the only one I’ve seen use hinoki.. on the ultra lites.


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 15, 2018)

Love this thread thanks for the links. Planted plugs of grass in one yard now doing another by same owner. Use a a small Japanese curved sickle to cut mats of grass into plugs and a hand held japan hoe to dig out the hole in prepared soil. Both tools work great. 

Like the Japanese carbon hand clippers too use them a lot in my yard.


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 16, 2018)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Love this thread thanks for the links. Planted plugs of grass in one yard now doing another by same owner. Use a a small Japanese curved sickle to cut mats of grass into plugs and a hand held japan hoe to dig out the hole in prepared soil. Both tools work great.
> 
> Like the Japanese carbon hand clippers too use them a lot in my yard.



Are you using the hori hori style trowel? Those things are viscous in a good way! I also use some very simple thin carbon trowels that sharpen up really nice. I love the simple Japanese garden stuff and so many of our beloved knife smiths also make these things... chef’s knives have only been around so long


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 16, 2018)

The hoe is very similar to the carbon Planter Tool sold by Japan Woodworker. Mine is 6" long blade 2.5" wide with 15" wood handle. They sell some Japanese garden tools at city mill here that's were I got mine. Extremely useful tool perfect balance.
Shoot the dirt off with hose & let dry in the sun. Been using it so much lately don't bother to oil the carbon. I do sharpen up my carbon gardening tools & oil them on occasion. I talked to an old Japanese guy who uses carbon tools he fills a bucket with saw dust soaked in oil & sticks his cleaned dry tools blade first into the bucket.


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 16, 2018)

Yeah those are good. The sawdust bucket is simple genius! When I get done with the cutting tools I use warm water to get the sap off then use heavy duty aluminum foil with camellia oil, tightly wadded up, to get any stray stuff off. It acts sort of like a rust eraser, plus it lets me know off any edge damage.
Btw, just received my order from Tetsufuku.. very fast shipping and a very nice note from Mr. Urata. A pleasure dealing with him!

Also going to post this page on sharpening for anybody interested... https://translate.google.com/transl...en&u=http://www.zouen-dougu.com/togikata.html


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 17, 2018)

Awesome will you be shaping tree branches with these shears?


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 17, 2018)

Keith Sinclair said:


> Awesome will you be shaping tree branches with these shears?


Hey Keith, those particular shears are just for fresh leaf like boxwood, azalea etc.. , no branches/hard stuff. When the going gets tough the okatsune come out which is always a bummer cause they just don’t feel as good the others..


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 22, 2018)

I knew this thread was going to cost me some coin. Ordered Okatsune shears. Figured can use them on my Isora hedge and trimming greenery on a tree trying to shape.


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 23, 2018)

Keith Sinclair said:


> I knew this thread was going to cost me some coin. Ordered Okatsune shears. Figured can use them on my Isora hedge and trimming greenery on a tree trying to shape.



Those will be good Keith, they’re workhorses. The steel is a little soft (dents not chips) so give your edges a check every now and then. I got three pair of them a short w/short blade $25, a short w/long blade $35 and a long w/short blade $49 from a place in Oregon a few years ago.. couldn’t believe the prices so I drove down and gave them money! 

Yeah lol.. I did not think this thread was going cost me but I was wrong, very wrong.. just a simple link on Tobisho’s site.. doh!

Enjoy your new tools! 

-Porter


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 23, 2018)

You got the light saber. Maybe in the future.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 29, 2018)

I can't recommend Tobisho enough...

I have the A-type No. 9 (200mm, blue steel). It can get insanely sharp. I was cleaning it absent mindedly one day and sliced my thumb right open. Ive had them for two years now and put them to good use. In that time I have only sharpened them once - more because I could than because I needed to. The edge retention is quite something. I haven't had any chips yet but I am careful to latch them shut and most of the cutting I do is on live branches. Given how impressed I am, I have been eyeing off the Tobisho No 3 and No 7 shears (barracudas).

High on my list is a hand-hoe. Any recommendations? Given the talk about hoes, on a side note, the family mattock has been in service so long that the blade has been polished by the digging!


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## Keith Sinclair (Jul 29, 2018)

As mentioned above really like the carbon planter tool similar to one sold at JWW. It is not a wide hoe 2.5" but is a serious digger. 15" handle gives a good swing. Used it to plant grass plugs in three yards including my own. I have quite a bit of red ginger, When the flowers mature they send off shoots. I cut off the flower part bend the stalks over dig a hole with the hoe & plant the young shoots. After about a month when roots are in cut off the bent over stem. Use this hoe for everything.


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 29, 2018)

Luftmensch said:


> I can't recommend Tobisho enough...


Me too! And yes edge retention is impressive.. actually amazing! 
Don’t know what your going to cut with those shears but being that they are the same length I went the barracudas because they can handle a much tougher branch and still do what the #3's do... more workhorsey. If you get them definitely get the holster.. trust me


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 29, 2018)

Here’s what is inside my tool bag (everything can be holstered)... the pvc holds oil, foil, small oil rag and a wrench to take apart tools. Karikomi shears need their own photo  then there are the saws and the ladders


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## Luftmensch (Jul 30, 2018)

Keith! Thanks for the reply. I did see that recommendation. I am trying to canvas some options. As niwaki-boy said, blacksmiths have been producing these things for years. In times gone by the local blacksmith used to make many things for the town. The export market for agricultural J-tools seems to be growing slowly (I suppose it is following on the coat tails of cutlery and carpentry tools). 



Keith Sinclair said:


> As mentioned above really like the carbon planter tool similar to one sold at JWW. It is not a wide hoe 2.5" but is a serious digger. 15" handle gives a good swing. Used it to plant grass plugs in three yards including my own. I have quite a bit of red ginger, When the flowers mature they send off shoots. I cut off the flower part bend the stalks over dig a hole with the hoe & plant the young shoots. After about a month when roots are in cut off the bent over stem. Use this hoe for everything.



It sounds like you have a stunning garden! The form factor does interest me. Im probably going to be doing a lot of weeding later in the year. A narrow profile is perfect for this sort of thing. 



niwaki-boy said:


> Me too! And yes edge retention is impressive.. actually amazing!
> Don’t know what your going to cut with those shears but being that they are the same length I went the barracudas because they can handle a much tougher branch and still do what the #3's do... more workhorsey. If you get them definitely get the holster.. trust me



You are right - the 3# would just be an indulgence! It has the appeal of being good for soft shoots - and possibly even edging grass in hard to get corners. The barracudas would be better suited in pretty much every other scenario!

That is quite a collection! As you say! Don't mess with a Japanese gardener


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 30, 2018)

Luftmensch said:


> and possibly even edging grass in hard to get corners.


Sounds like some special grass  

Not really a collection.. it’s a bunch o'tools that get used every time the planet spins  Tobisho w/out the yellow/red is a new one just bought from Tetsufuku (along with those mind bender Kanto shears).. it’s a small version of barracuda which I think will be a bit handier for my plum tree than the sr's.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 30, 2018)

Grass? I don't know what you mean man! I need something to prune my chronic weed infestation 



niwaki-boy said:


> Not really a collection..



Indeed! Sorry... collection in the 'group of objects' sense... not in the 'behind glass, white gloves' sense (though gardening gloves might be a good idea)!

Hmmm.... I know each tool has its place but do you have one that you have found to be a better generalist than others??


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## niwaki-boy (Jul 31, 2018)

Hey mensch.. haha no worries! Lol.. that was supposed be 'spins around the sun'.. every time it spins would be too much  
Tough call can’t really just grab one and go it usually happens in twos and threes. I might be up on a ladder doing pad work on a tree so I’ll have the sr's/small saw/barracuda combo and maybe one of those knob cutters. For karikomi it’s just the barracudas and and a shear or two, pine work is okubo and the tobisho pine snips, really just depends on job de jour. That said the sr's and barracuda do the bulk and we’ll see how those new ones do...


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## Luftmensch (Aug 1, 2018)

Hehe. Only once a year! You could have been the constant gardener! It sounds like the barracudas get a fair bit of use. I before spring I should get my hands on some of these.


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## niwaki-boy (Aug 3, 2018)

Luftmensch said:


> Hehe. Only once a year! You could have been the constant gardener! It sounds like the barracudas get a fair bit of use. I before spring I should get my hands on some of these.


Out of curiosity, what are you planning to cut on?


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## Keith Sinclair (Aug 5, 2018)

Have the same hand clippers with diff. color handles each side. Find the straight blade gets used a lot for shaping my small junipers. They are slow growers put them in the ground 2 years ago are a little bigger

Talk about weeds got all the plugs in for last yard I did now comes weeding between plugs until they grow together. I killed off all the weeds before put in the plugs, but they will still grow where ever exposed dirt that is getting a lot of water first two months until the plugs establish roots in the soil. Garden knee mat and flat head screw drivers to get the weeds out roots and all.


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## Luftmensch (Aug 7, 2018)

niwaki-boy said:


> Out of curiosity, what are you planning to cut on?



Hmmm a mixed bag... I have native shrubs (mostly 1.5m tall) in my small court yard garden. A chilli tree... a couple of lavender bushes.... herbs. On the other side are three mystery trees the previous occupants planted. The look a lot like magnolia but refuse to flower (they are fast growers though). The A-types are just fine for all of this... I dont _need_ any more. Want is another story....

The real job is my parents house. They have a big hedge - it is a jumble of trees. A lot of old Camellia and Crabapples. There are quite a few native bushes/trees scattered around as well. A Bougainvilleas that needs constant taming. I think the Barracudas would get a good work out in this garden! The A-types might a bit small for some tasks...




Keith Sinclair said:


> Have the same hand clippers with diff. color handles each side. Find the straight blade gets used a lot for shaping my small junipers. They are slow growers put them in the ground 2 years ago are a little bigger
> 
> Talk about weeds got all the plugs in for last yard I did now comes weeding between plugs until they grow together. I killed off all the weeds before put in the plugs, but they will still grow where ever exposed dirt that is getting a lot of water first two months until the plugs establish roots in the soil. Garden knee mat and flat head screw drivers to get the weeds out roots and all.



Sounds like a lot of good work!


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## niwaki-boy (Aug 7, 2018)

Luftmensch said:


> The real job is my parents house.



Gotcha.. sounds like they’d fit right in.
Lol.. yes I understand the 'want' factor all too well and sometimes it need to be beat with 'get' factor  
But only of course if the 'used' factor is built in!


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## niwaki-boy (Aug 7, 2018)

Yup those red and whites (okatsune) are great little knockabouts.



Keith Sinclair said:


> Garden knee mat and flat head screw drivers to get the weeds out roots and all.


Old school getting down to the basics right there! ... and stretch those knees


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## Bert2368 (May 23, 2020)

I've been spending time with my two favorite hoes. The short one is from Japan, the taller is from Germany...


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## boomchakabowwow (May 23, 2020)

I want a hori hori, and I had every intention to buy it when I was to be in Japan last month. 
thanks Covid-19 for effing up that well laid plan. I thinks it’s a smart tool. I’m obsessed with weed abatement. 
other than that, me personally, i do not feeI the need that my garden tools have to be Japanese.


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