# VG-10



## gaijin (Jan 8, 2017)

I'm new to this game, but I'm starting to learn to sharpen some carbon steel knives on whetstones. However, I just saw Benuser write this in another thread (that I don't want to derail): 



> But VG-10 is a bit a special case. A burr won't fall off as with a carbon steel, and if it were to, it would leave a severely damaged edge behind.
> The VG-10 burr needs to get carefully abraded with at any next step a finer stone. Probably no need for a full sharpening at every stage of the progression, but at least some very light stropping, followed by deburring along the edge. I don't think naturals can be very helpful in this respect.



Since I actually have a VG-10 knife that have not yet shown to the stones, perhaps someone here can expand a bit on the peculiarties of sharpening a VG-10 knife, and keeping it sharp thereafter?


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 8, 2017)

Most mass produced knives made with this steel have a reputation for forming stubborn burs.

Basically it's good enough stainless to warrant polishing. If you try a polishing regiment on aus8 you'll find that steel doesn't warrant polishing.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Jan 8, 2017)

In my experience, sharpening VG-10 is no different than sharpening any other steel. Raise the smallest burr possible on a coarse or medium stone, then reduce (abrade) the burr on a higher grit stone. Don't raise a big burr when you begin, and you won't have to worry about it later.

Rick


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 8, 2017)

Don't ask me... just changed a visible 30° (single bevel) secondary bevel to a ~18°+micro on VG10... serious labor even with a pro 400 ...  what worked was going brutal on the burr from the angle change (nothing but cutting hardwood managed to deal with it. Yes, that is ripping it off, and yes that left a coarse edge) and then just doing a more controlled resharpening without an angle change and without building much burr...

Microbevelling is your friend anyway with VG10, and you will abrade the last bit of burr (don't leave too much lest you microbevel the burr instead  ).

Paper stropping doesn't work that well with VG10 (if compared to, say, Shirogami)... it does respond to Crox somewhat.... has someone tried steeling with softer VG10?


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## Ruso (Jan 8, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> In my experience, sharpening VG-10 is no different than sharpening any other steel. Raise the smallest burr possible on a coarse or medium stone, then reduce (abrade) the burr on a higher grit stone. Don't raise a big burr when you begin, and you won't have to worry about it later.
> 
> Rick


Very well summarized. +1

Don't over-think it. It's all about muscle memory to keep steady angle.


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## psfred (Jan 8, 2017)

I raise a barely perceptible burr on a Bester 1200, then finish on a King or Arashiyama 6k, or a Rika 5000. Strop on wood charged with chromium oxide. Gives me great, long lasting edges.

Don't raise a huge burr to start with and you will be fine. 

Peter


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## jc57 (Jan 8, 2017)

I have found VG-10 (well, VG-MAX, whatever that is) to sharpen up just like anything else. I use Shapton Pro stones and strop on balsa loaded with 1u diamond.


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## Benuser (Jan 12, 2017)

Just to tell the traditional chasing the burr won't work with VG-10.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 12, 2017)

@Benuser You mean, the burr enjoys the chase instead of fatigueing?


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## Benuser (Jan 12, 2017)

In traditional sharpening, the burr is weakened by making it flipping and will finally fall off. That's how it may work with carbons, but certainly not with VG-10. So, forget the flipping but abrade it instead.


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## foody518 (Jan 12, 2017)

Benuser said:


> In traditional sharpening, the burr is weakened by making it flipping and will finally fall off. That's how it may work with carbons, but certainly not with VG-10. So, forget the flipping but abrade it instead.



When you say abrade - are you referring to longitudinal strokes along the edge, or light edge leading strokes?


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## Benuser (Jan 12, 2017)

Strictly longitudinal strokes may cause wire edges, so I would suggest very slightly edge leading.


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## daveb (Jan 12, 2017)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> In my experience, sharpening VG-10 is no different than sharpening any other steel. Raise the smallest burr possible on a coarse or medium stone, then reduce (abrade) the burr on a higher grit stone. Don't raise a big burr when you begin, and you won't have to worry about it later.
> 
> Rick



Rick sharpened a Shun Petty for me a couple years ago. Recall he took it to 6K. Sharpest Shun EVER


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## Nemo (Jan 12, 2017)

Benuser said:


> Strictly longitudinal strokes may cause wire edges, so I would suggest very slightly edge leading.



As in "cutting the water"?


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## malexthekid (Jan 13, 2017)

I am Rick'ss category rather than Benuser's. I sharpen my VG-10 blade the same as all my others (see Jon's sharpening vids) and have never had any issues


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## Benuser (Jan 13, 2017)

Of course, once you master the technique for deburring VG-10 you use it with big benefit for all your knives.


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## Ivang (Jan 13, 2017)

I don't find vg10 particularly hard to sharpen compared to other stainless.


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## gaijin (Jan 14, 2017)

Thanks all. I now have some more knowledge for when I need to attach my VG-10 knife.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 14, 2017)

@Benuser isn't always abrading a burr, opposed to taking advantage of its "natural" breaking point, leaving more of a residual?

Why does the comparison of snapping vs cutting green asparagus seem apt here?


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## _PixelNinja (Jan 14, 2017)

Personally, the reason I do not like sharpening VG10 in general is because of the weird tactile feedback  or lack of thereof  I get on the stones. That being said, while not necessarily hard to sharpen, I do find it is a bit more tedious to work with compared to other steels. The only exception to this being Hattori's VG10 which I like very much.


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 14, 2017)

I'm curious I've never really seen Jon or other professional sharpeners talk about vg-10 (but in general I don't think he likes to give anyone the idea that any particular steel is good or bad, and that's probably more accurate than many of us, myself included) .... am I just missing these posts?

I mean it's not really intellectually honest to say that x steel performs a certain way in all cases because there are many variables. It's probably more useful to caveat it like... tojiro dp vg-10 is x, tanaka vg-10 is x and so on. and even in the latter example where a knife is made by a craftsman there is inherent variability in individual knives, based on the assumption Tanaka's not using super modern HT methods


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## foody518 (Jan 14, 2017)

Jon has 'A Primer on Steel' video IIRC that touches on it just a bit


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## daveb (Jan 14, 2017)

I recall VG-10 getting pretty well hashed over a couple years ago, about the time Shun started introducing WS exclusives and 43 other lines of knives.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 14, 2017)

Probably a psychological bias against it, same as with 1.4116 and 440/420: People start to care about knives because those they cook with suck, and realize that most mainstream knives suck too. And they look at what steels the knives that suck/probably suck are made of. And since VG10 has made a huge inrush into mainstream cutlery (and some VG10 mainstream - not all - is reputed to suck too), there is a) an association with knives that suck, b) a doubt when VG10 is sold in very expensive knives - "why is the same stuff used to make an $20 knife used for this $200 one too, is this a ripoff?".


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 14, 2017)

though a variety of factors could explain away the reasons why expensive (even more than 200 dollar knives, yanagi etc) are made from vg-10 to this day. I'm inclined to believe most small to midsize knife making outfits are so busy with actual knife output once they get up and running that research and development is only even a concern in the infancy of the business, if at all (for instance, if the business has been passed down there is probably even less incentive to reinvent the wheel- if it ain't broke, why risk bankruptcy to fix it?)


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 14, 2017)

Or maybe VG-10 is a b to work with in a non industrial, small workshop setting? Could any knifemaker comment here, I do not know?


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 15, 2017)

That's the other thing VG 10 seems to be quite widely available and I've never known a Western maker to use it. Good observation


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 15, 2017)

But every western large-scale shop either uses or imports it these days (thinking of WMF or HGS Solingen)....

And if you look at the pricing of japanese workshop/small company operations... let's say look at Sukenari, look at Anryu ... VG10 commands a big markup compared to carbon...


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## psfred (Jan 16, 2017)

VG-10 is available in clad billets ready for ginding, and that makes it attractive to mass manufacture with automated machinery. It is more expensive than carbon steel.

It also happens to be a perfectly fine knife steel, and since it's clad with fairly run of the mill stainless, it's inexpensive compared to making knives form solid knife steels. It has some advantages over carbon steel, mainly edge retention, and takes a good edge with minimal issues

The key to good VG-10 knives is proper heat treatment -- improper tempering or over hardening will result in chippy edges (and while Tojiro does a good job, it IS brittle, I chipped the point of my paring knife much more easily than I expected).

You should know, though, that I don't revere my knives as objects of worship, I cut food with them. Profile is far more important than bling value to me (I really like my 300 mm DP gyuto) and don't mind at all that it was purchased for half price as a return because the original purchaser scratched up the sides while making a mess out of the edge. Took some work to restore the proper bevel and get it sharp. 

Potatoes and carrots really don't care what the knife looks like, eh?

Peter


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 16, 2017)

psfred said:


> VG-10 is available in clad billets ready for ginding, and that makes it attractive to mass manufacture with automated machinery. It is more expensive than carbon steel.
> 
> It also happens to be a perfectly fine knife steel, and since it's clad with fairly run of the mill stainless, it's inexpensive compared to making knives form solid knife steels. It has some advantages over carbon steel, mainly edge retention, and takes a good edge with minimal issues
> 
> ...



i totally know what you mean


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## richard (Jan 16, 2017)

spoiledbroth said:


> That's the other thing VG 10 seems to be quite widely available and I've never known a Western maker to use it. Good observation



I believe that Japan didn't export VG10 for the longest time, only finished products. That's what led to situations where US-based companies like Spyderco contracted with Japanese shops to make VG10 knives for them to be sold under the Spyderco label.


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 16, 2017)

but also china has been producing vg-10 i know in the last few years but not for how long


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## richard (Jan 16, 2017)

There make VG10 knives, but import the steel from Japan.


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## miggus (Jan 17, 2017)

I hope that this is not too OT: Do you guys know what VG-10 costs to buy for a manufacturer in comparison to Shirogami and Aogami?


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 17, 2017)

richard said:


> There make VG10 knives, but import the steel from Japan.



You can buy billets on Alibaba... And they say manufactured in China


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 17, 2017)

Found that the window between "enough finger pressure to really abrade metal when resetting a bevel" and "enough pressure to start cracks in the hagane" is not thaaaat large with certain single bevel designs made of VG10 ... :shocked3: luckily no fatal damage, no super expensive knife... and I'm not THAT strong in the fingers (a double bass player meaning business would have probably snapped the blade)...


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## gaijin (Jan 18, 2017)

Good luck that I only play the Fender bass then...


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## Benuser (Jan 18, 2017)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> Found that the window between "enough finger pressure to really abrade metal when resetting a bevel" and "enough pressure to start cracks in the hagane" is not thaaaat large with certain single bevel designs made of VG10 ... :shocked3: luckily no fatal damage, no super expensive knife... and I'm not THAT strong in the fingers (a double bass player meaning business would have probably snapped the blade)...



Where do you need that pressure for? Good coarse waterstones don't need it for abrading steel.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 18, 2017)

@Benuser Cho 400 actually! There was a mm or so of blade road to take down (resetting a ~35 degree visible bevel to zero  ), though, and not much happened unless using pressure...


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## Benuser (Jan 18, 2017)

Ok...and that was with solid VG-10?? IIRC VG-10 isn't that abrasion resistant. Some make a bit of mud on the Chosera to get it started. 
And thinking about it, yes, I remember having used quite a bit of pressure when thinning of course, to determine exactly the location of abrasion.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 19, 2017)

Not going too detailed because I do not want to name manufacturer and model in public post- in the end, I did a heavy modification and can't blame it on the maker, I do not think their steel is faulty.


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 20, 2017)

Strange because my tojiro have taken an absolute beating and i probably thinned them more than would be recommended and they're alright.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Jan 20, 2017)

Maybe I was misinterpreting what I saw - I would suspect a hairline crack seeing a black line in a ura after wiping off swarf ....


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## spoiledbroth (Jan 20, 2017)

It could be any number of things! No doubt it's pretty brittle steel. Definitely more so than most other cheap stainless.


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