# First Gyuto Guidance?



## Isaiahm (Nov 9, 2020)

I've always been curious about better chef knives but recently one of my favorite internet chef's recently became pretty vocal about one of his favorite knives and the reddit chef knife community went *off* in the comments. I was going to buy it (curious if anybody can guess what I'm talking about?) but after houuuuurrrsss of research I've changed my mind and am in an entirely new state of indecision.

I've posted a few times on reddit, but feel like I should spread out my basic questions a bit... (sorry)

I started out with a ~$150USD budget and was prepared to order a 240mm Gesshin Stainless steel Gyuto. I'm now leaning away from this for two reasons. 1. I want an intro knife, but also kind of want just like... a step beyond introductory since I don't anticipate buying another for a few years 2. I just don't like the look of the basic/light handle. 

So anyways, after another post and scrolling *hundreds* of posts I'm now torn between:

The Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji Gyuto 240mm
Glowing reviews. I love the looks of the blade and the handle. Sounds like it'll be relatively durable.
With the Saya this goes up to about 300 bucks which I think I'm comfortable increasing my budget to.

OR

The 240mm Gesshin Ginga Stainless steel (or other laser still don't like the handle and this isn't in stock currently)
I'm wondering if I should go for something a bit more laserish to further/better differentiate from the types of knives I already have and really lean into the benefits of a Japanese knife.

Or something entirely different because I am still relatively new to all of this and trust you know much more than I.

Looking forward to hearing any applicable thoughts!


Attaching questionnaire as first comment hopefully:


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## Isaiahm (Nov 9, 2020)

LOCATION
United States (yay for hopefully not being disappointed to say that soon *fingers crossed*)


KNIFE TYPE
Chef's/Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
Around 10 inches / 240mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
I've got a bunch of antique cast iron pans so I'm used to maintaining rust free iron to a degree, but probably best to stick with a stainless coating at a minimum. 

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
I thought it was $200usd, but now I'm looking at ~300... let's say a ceiling of $400



KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Purely home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? Slicing/chopping/mincing veg. Slicing boneless meats - won't use this knife for anything overly hard or boney. Maybe some light fish slicing, I've been curious about DYI sushi/sashimi. Trimming meats is likely. 


What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Kickstarter Misen Chef's knife (whoops) / Victorinox Chef's knife (surprisingly good) 

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Pinch

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Chopping/rocking. The linked page seems to be not working 100%, but happy to accommodate a knife as necessary here, within reason.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
Sharper/thinner/ slide through onions/veg. Something I'll feel good using and want to maintain.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
A nice blade / handle. Nothing that looks cheap, doesn't have to be hammered or Damascus, but also would appreciate something cooler than a plain slab of metal.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
Lighter sounds good, but not a deal breaker. As long as it slides through veg and is reasonably durable.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Less wedging, better food release, less reactivity all sound nice. But not deal breakers if there's something better.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
I guess this would be dependent on how much I use it, but ideally I could get more than a few solid uses between whetstones



KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Synthetic, will probably get a nice wood or rubber one to compliment the knife.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
I have, but I'm going to get whetstones for the new knife.

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Sure, I've heard the JKI video is the way to go.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
yes


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## M1k3 (Nov 9, 2020)

Tanaka from K&S? If so, just know that ebony handles seem to be either well liked or hated.

That said, you couldn't go wrong with either one. If you don't have a sharpening stone, I'd say get the Gesshin Stainless and a stone in the 800-2k grit range. No matter how much you spend on a knife, it'll need to be sharpened. Might as well start on a cheaper one, that you will scratch up at some point learning.


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## Isaiahm (Nov 9, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Tanaka from K&S? If so, just know that ebony handles seem to be either well liked or hated.
> 
> That said, you couldn't go wrong with either one. If you don't have a sharpening stone, I'd say get the Gesshin Stainless and a stone in the 800-2k grit range. No matter how much you spend on a knife, it'll need to be sharpened. Might as well start on a cheaper one, that you will scratch up at some point learning.


Thanks for the response! Yup K&S. But from the AU site which seems like it'll ship to NY... Theirs has a rounded Spine Choil, customizable handle, and a saya for 50 bucks. I think the ebony handle is gorgeous, what's not to like?

I've seen a bunch of good stones, so that I feel pretty confident on. My plan is to practice on my misen/victorinox/misc kitchen knives until I feel comfortable enough to do it on the good knife I eventually buy.


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## timebard (Nov 9, 2020)

Isaiahm said:


> Thanks for the response! Yup K&S. But from the AU site which seems like it'll ship to NY... Theirs has a rounded Spine Choil, customizable handle, and a saya for 50 bucks. I think the ebony handle is gorgeous, what's not to like?
> 
> I've seen a bunch of good stones, so that I feel pretty confident on. My plan is to practice on my misen/victorinox/misc kitchen knives until I feel comfortable enough to do it on the good knife I eventually buy.



The KnS ebony handle looks and feels more premium than a ho wood handle. I have one and think it's great. But--the flip side is that while ho wood handles look a bit plain and rustic, they're more grippy and textured in hand, especially if you're in a hurry and are using them with wet hands. Ebony is denser and is a bit slippery if your hands are wet, so some folks (perhaps skewed towards pro cooks vs home cooks?) don't like them on that account.

Personally, I'm almost never in such a rush at home that I can't take two seconds and dry my hands before cutting something--but ymmv.


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## Isaiahm (Nov 9, 2020)

timebard said:


> The KnS ebony handle looks and feels more premium than a ho wood handle. I have one and think it's great. But--the flip side is that while ho wood handles look a bit plain and rustic, they're more grippy and textured in hand, especially if you're in a hurry and are using them with wet hands. Ebony is denser and is a bit slippery if your hands are wet, so some folks (perhaps skewed towards pro cooks vs home cooks?) don't like them on that account.
> 
> Personally, I'm almost never in such a rush at home that I can't take two seconds and dry my hands before cutting something--but ymmv.


Yeah, I'm pretty good about toweling off and having dry hands, so I'm not particularly worried about that. Any other thoughts or input into my potential knife?


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## tchan001 (Nov 9, 2020)

It's a beauty. Good choice.


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## spaceconvoy (Nov 9, 2020)

Isaiahm said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty good about toweling off and having dry hands, so I'm not particularly worried about that. Any other thoughts or input into my potential knife?


I think what M1k3 is referring to is the heaviness of the ebony handle. I have a Yoshikane Amekiri with that handle and it definitely shifts the balance further back than most wa gyutos. Still well ahead of the heel, but more centered on the pinch grip instead of slightly forward. If this is your first gyuto and you're coming from a typical bolster-balanced western knife, I think you'll like the ebony handle.


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## M1k3 (Nov 10, 2020)

spaceconvoy said:


> I think what M1k3 is referring to is the heaviness of the ebony handle. I have a Yoshikane Amekiri with that handle and it definitely shifts the balance further back than most wa gyutos. Still well ahead of the heel, but more centered on the pinch grip instead of slightly forward. If this is your first gyuto and you're coming from a typical bolster-balanced western knife, I think you'll like the ebony handle.


Heaviness and how slippery. Just giving warning that the handle will be fell in love with and made a spouse, or kicked out of bed.


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## tostadas (Nov 10, 2020)

I'm personally on the side of lighter handle. I like my knives to be more forward balanced rather than at the choil. For reference, my victorinox is balanced right around the choil, while my german knives like zwilling are balanced at the bolster or even farther back. 

Id suggest to take a look at the Wakui. I have a couple of his knives with different grinds. The migaki version from epic edge is the thinnest, but the 240 is still balanced probably 1 inch in front of the choil. It goes through onions much nicer than my thinned out Victorinox, and I'd highly recommend for the balance and grind. The handle is probably one of the lightest feeling of the ho handles I have. Fit and finish are average. After maybe 20mins with some sandpaper to smooth out the spine and choil, and a few coats of board butter on the handle, it feels much improved.


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## Nemo (Nov 10, 2020)

Both are good knives. Ginga is super thin, Tanaka Nashiji is merely thin.

It's not a terrible thing to have a thin knife as your intro to nice knives. Their performance will truly surprise you.

However, it's also useful to be aware of one of the (many) tradeoffs inherent in good knives: the tradeoff between thinness (and ease of cutting hard food, especially tall hard food) and food release (a catch-all phrase that encompasses the related but different concepts of ease of cutting/ resistance to stiction in wet foods and ease of food shedding off thre face of the blade). There are much thicker knives than these which wedge a little more but perform wonderfully in wet foods.


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## Isaiahm (Nov 10, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Both are good knives. Ginga is super thin, Tanaka Nashiji is merely thin.
> 
> It's not a terrible thing to have a thin knife as your intro to nice knives. Their performance will truly surprise you.
> 
> However, it's also useful to be aware of one of the (many) tradeoffs inherent in good knives: the tradeoff between thinness (and ease of cutting hard food, especially tall hard food) and food release (a catch-all phrase that encompasses the related but different concepts of ease of cutting/ resistance to stiction in wet foods and ease of food shedding off thre face of the blade). There are much thicker knives than these which wedge a little more but perform wonderfully in wet foods.




That's helpful! Since indoor dining by me is out, and it's probably going to be too cold for outdoor soon I'm trying to perfect my french onion soup. Which means slicing tons of onions. Do you think either would lend themselves better to slicing through large quantities of onions for example? (obviously this is a short term and very specific task, but I'm curious.)


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## Nemo (Nov 10, 2020)

Isaiahm said:


> That's helpful! Since indoor dining by me is out, and it's probably going to be too cold for outdoor soon I'm trying to perfect my french onion soup. Which means slicing tons of onions. Do you think either would lend themselves better to slicing through large quantities of onions for example? (obviously this is a short term and very specific task, but I'm curious.)


Probably depends on your onoin cutting technique.

I tend to do horizontal slices followed by vertical incisions followed by a fine dice of the resulting matchsticks. Note that if you keep the root attached, you can keep the whole half onion together until the end.

I find that a bit of convexity helps with horizontal cuts but too much thickness impedes it. So a thinner middleweight probably does this best IME.

Vertical cuts are easiest with a thin tip. This can be a laser or a knife with an aggressive taper.

If you then do a fine dice, the food shedding of a thicker convex grind works best.

Any knife can do all of these things but overall, I do like a Sanjo knife for this sort of thing. It alows you to use the thinner tip for vertical and horizontal cuts, but the thicker, convex portion near the heel for the fine dice.

Anything from a thin Yoshikane Nashiji (Amekiri) or Wakui hairline to a Mazaki. A thicker Yoshikane (or Wakui) Tsuchime (hammered) blade handles the dice well but the tips of these are not quite as thin. Gengetsu is a pretty good onion processing machine. Actually, it's pretty good at many things.

Having said that, other grinds such as a convexed thinner grind (I'm thinking of Akebono which is unfortunately no longer available, but the new Tanaka Migaki from KNS has a similar grind IMO) or even a concave thinner grind (Kurosaki Sjizuku, Kippington Laser) can also work well.

Having said all that, any well ground knife will work much better than traditional (mainly flat-ground) Western knives.


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