# Best Guided system for new guy



## Simon T (Sep 23, 2019)

Hey.
Sorry I posted about guides, but looking at reviews, some can scratch and also damage the stone.
I seen the wedges which seem a little better, but yo are left free handing one you have left the wedge.

What other guided cheap systems are there so I can get the hang of free handing?

Thanks all


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## Caleb Cox (Sep 23, 2019)

The Edge Pro Apex model is cheapest guided stone system that I'd recommend. You won't learn freehand technique, but you will learn some about feedback, burr formation, etc. Any true angle guidance besides the wedge/stack of pennies is going to be too much of a crutch to allow you to learn.


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## JoeWheels (Sep 23, 2019)

Agree with Caleb.
Edge Pro Apex is a good system that will teach you a lot about sharpening overall.
The translation to freehand sharpening from EP is fairly direct.


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## Simon T (Sep 28, 2019)

Thanks all.
Apex is quite expensive. I will probably just keep freehanding on my old knives until I get the hang of it.

Most youtube videos that try show you are very poor as its hard to gauge the angle on a video


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## Corradobrit1 (Sep 28, 2019)

Simon T said:


> Thanks all.
> Apex is quite expensive. I will probably just keep freehanding on my old knives until I get the hang of it.
> 
> Most youtube videos that try show you are very poor as its hard to gauge the angle on a video


And pressure and when its applied


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## suntravel (Sep 28, 2019)

Best cheap one for bench stones is the Warthog, but really good ones are more expensive...

.. and only done by yourself or from makers in russia like Bogdan

http://warthogusa.com/product/multi-edge/

Regards

Uwe


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## zoze (Sep 28, 2019)

Got mine from this suntravel guy.


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## suntravel (Sep 28, 2019)

zoze said:


> Got mine from this suntravel guy.



Yeah you are one from the chosen few 

Regards

Uwe


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## slickmamba (Sep 28, 2019)

Just practice freehanding, it doens't take long to get used to it


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## KingShapton (Sep 28, 2019)

slickmamba said:


> Just practice freehanding, it doens't take long to get used to it



+1


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## Benuser (Sep 29, 2019)

Better get a cheap thin carbon knife, a good loupe (6-10x) and a marker instead. For the knife I would suggest a simple Robert Herder. Cut a few wine corks with an inclination that corresponds to commonly used angles, for reference. 
Blades sharpened with jig systems I've seen invariably had nice edges, protruding shoulders and got far too thick behind the edge. Great edges, poor cutters.


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## Eloh (Sep 29, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Blades sharpened with jig systems I've seen invariably had nice edges, protruding shoulders and got far too thick behind the edge. Great edges, poor cutters.



.. Wich has nothing to do with the jig itself obviously, just with the fact that the ones you saw didn't do a good job of utilizing it.

You can do the same thinning procedure you would do without it and just using it to make a microbevel, as tiny as possible, wich is the way it should be used.

Just mentioning it because these things get miss characterized on here all the time.
A good jig is just a tool. You still need to know how to use it in the most effective way. 
If you don't thin your knife when you need to that doesn't have anything to do with the tools you use just with a lack of knowledge and technique.
Wich is why I wouldn't recommend them to beginners anyway, rather to people who already are decent freehand sharpeners who feel a need to optimize their personal sharpening procedure.


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## Benuser (Sep 29, 2019)

Eloh said:


> You can do the same thinning procedure you would do without it and just using it to make a microbevel, as tiny as possible, wich is the way it should be used.


IIRC, the minimal angle on one of the EPs was 6°. Not the kind of thinning I'm used to.


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## suntravel (Sep 30, 2019)

EP is not the only jig system, the one I use starts from 0° and could also set up for convex grinds between two angles...

... but for thinning I also prefer freehand, jig only for the bevel.

Regards

Uwe


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## Eloh (Sep 30, 2019)

Benuser said:


> IIRC, the minimal angle on one of the EPs was 6°. Not the kind of thinning I'm used to.



Sorry for not getting my point across properly: I thin my knives completely freehand (probably similarly to you) . I only use a jig for setting a small microbevel, wich is the procedure I would strongly recommend.

Ps
I also have 3k stone and a dick micro steel at work for quick freehand touch ups if necessary, I'm not a jig fundamentalist just saying it *can* be a helpful tool for optimizing sharpening results


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## Benuser (Sep 30, 2019)

Eloh said:


> Sorry for not getting my point across properly: I thin my knives completely freehand (probably similarly to you) . I only use a jig for setting a small microbevel, wich is the procedure I would strongly recommend.
> 
> Ps
> I also have 3k stone and a dick micro steel at work for quick freehand touch ups if necessary, I'm not a jig fundamentalist just saying it *can* be a helpful tool for optimizing sharpening results


Thanks for clarifying! Makes a lot of sense. A beginner shouldn't start with a system before getting the basics, i.e. raising a burr, chasing it and getting rid of it, by hand.


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## Benuser (Oct 1, 2019)

Eloh said:


> Sorry for not getting my point across properly: I thin my knives completely freehand (probably similarly to you) . I only use a jig for setting a small microbevel, wich is the procedure I would strongly recommend.
> 
> Ps
> I also have 3k stone and a dick micro steel at work for quick freehand touch ups if necessary, I'm not a jig fundamentalist just saying it *can* be a helpful tool for optimizing sharpening results


On a side note: @Eloh, how do you find an angle on the Dickoron Micro? Just curious, as I find it easily on leather, stones, cardboard, you name it. But with the Micro I find it hard, unless the edge has already some damage.


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## suntravel (Oct 1, 2019)

No need to find the perfect angle with a fine steel like Dick Micro, just a bit steeper than grinding, bang bang, and it will be sharp...

... it is almost non abrasive.

For the good freehand sharpener it should be no prob estimating the right angle in no time 

The better pro chefs i know are doing about 10 strokes/s on a steel, even the ones sharpening with a jig 

Regards

Uwe


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## rob (Oct 1, 2019)

If you want to use a jig system i would recommend the Spyderco Sharpmaker. 
I don't see it mentioned here often. They are pretty cheap and IMO work quite well (used one for years on folding and kitchen knives) You can even adjust your angle to suit sharpening the tip.


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## Eloh (Oct 2, 2019)

What suntravel said. The surface is super fine on a dick micro, so you can't do so much wrong, unless you are banging your edge too hard against it.

Obviously it works better the tougher and softer the blade material. I usually use it on my Solingen beater and rarely use it on harder blades unless it's hectic at work.


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## Benuser (Oct 2, 2019)

Thanks guys!


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## mack (Dec 16, 2019)

I am using a Bogdan with pressure control for putting a microbevel on my knives.

For instance, I bought a Takamura Migaki R2 Petty for my wife. 







As most of us know, those knives come with 9° angle on each side, which is way too flat to use in European (and I guess American) kitchens. 

Out of the box, the edge looks like that:





After one minute of work (10 strokes each side on a Naniwa Professional 5K, afterwards 3/2/1 on each side) I got a perfect microbevel, which is enough to make the Takamura ready to use:





I wouldn't be able to do that freehand with the same quality, that's why I love my Bogdan. 

Mack.


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## Nemo (Dec 16, 2019)

I'm guessing that you want a method of maintaining your angle while freehanding rather than looking for a fully guided jig system?

I found Jon's videos on how to jold a knife while sharpening particulaly useful here. Indeed, most of his sharpening series is useful in one way or another:



The fully guided jig systems can teach a lot about edge formation whilst eliminating the issue of maintaining an angle. Honestly, maintaining an angle is not that difficult when you actually get down to it. If you really need a visual aid, make some wedges out of cardboard at your favourite angles (use a protractor).

Or you can use trigonometry: If you lay the blade flat on the stone and then raise the spine by half of its height, you have made a 30* angle.
1/3 gives about 20*
1/4 gives around 16*
1/5 gives aroun 11*
1/6 gives around 9*


The proponents of guided systems (especially the Bogdan) will say that it allows then to use a fine stone under light pressure, thus allowing a very keen and long- lasting edge. They may be correct and this may be useful in the high volume professional setting but I feel that I can make my knives plenty sharp with decent edge retention for normal kitchen use by freehanding.

The downside of guided jigs is that they are often not good for maintaining the blade geometry (including thinning) which is, in my view at least as important as the edge in determining the overall cutting performance of the knife.


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## Bolek (Dec 17, 2019)

What Bogdan is ?


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## Nemo (Dec 17, 2019)

Bagdan is a guided sharpening sysrem which holds the blade at a particular angle.


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## Benuser (Dec 17, 2019)

When I started I made a few corks cut with an inclination that corresponds to commonly used angles, for reference.


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## Eloh (Dec 17, 2019)

Nemo said:


> The downside of guided jigs is that they are often not good for maintaining the blade geometry (including thinning) which is, in my view at least as important as the edge in determining the overall cutting performance of the knife.



I don't know if I would call it a downside. Its simply not what I would use it for. I wouldn't use it for applying a Kasumi finish either for example
Its just a tool wich can do some things better than a human could, holding the angle and pressure control.

Edit
The consensus of those who use these is that its best used for setting and touching up small bevels. The resulting bevels are more stable and lead to better edge retention than freehand sharpening could, especially with higher alloyed steels. 

Is it worth it? Probably not, depending on your level of nerdiness, but if you already have stones for hundreds or even thousands of dollars I would definately also think about getting a guided system for optimizing results in a way that new stones couldn't


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## Nemo (Dec 17, 2019)

Eloh said:


> I don't know if I would call it a downside. Its simply not what I would use it for. I wouldn't use it for applying a Kasumi finish either for example
> Its just a tool wich can do some things better than a human could, holding the angle and pressure control.



Sure, but then the downside is that you need two seperate sharpening setups to maintain your knife, so it becomes less convenient.

It will essentially comes down to whether YOUR freehanding edge is adequate for YOUR use. If it isn't, you may want to consider a guided system for maintaining the very edge and developing a freehand technique to maintain the blade and accept the pfaffing around that goes with moving from one to the other. I've certainly considered using the Bogdan just out of curiosity, but my freehand edges are fine in my home kitchen. YMMV, especially if you work in a high volume prep envirommet and you find that the reports of increased edge retention with the Bogdan system are substatiated. 

Guided systems are not going to work as well with sharpening approaches such as convex, although I guess they could put a microbevel on at the end.

FWIW, I have an EP Apex which is a good little device that taught me a lot about edges and gave me the confidence to start freehand sharpening. I no longer use it because:
1) It takes longer. Especially if I am sharpening each side at different angles.
2) It can't deal with some of my knives which I sharpen convex.
3) It doesn't deal with thinning, which I incorporate into every sharpening session that involves a medium or coarser stone.
4) I kinda get a kick out of freehand sharpening.

Once again, YMMV.


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## Eloh (Dec 17, 2019)

Nemo said:


> It will essentially comes down to whether YOUR freehanding edge is adequate for YOUR use.



Completely agreed, I don't even want to convince anybody to use a jig either. It's just that everytime the topic comes up the same misconceptions gets spread like "you end up with a wedge monster" or whatever.


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## Oui Chef (Dec 17, 2019)

Eloh said:


> Is it worth it? Probably not, depending on your level of nerdiness, but if you already have stones for hundreds or even thousands of dollars I would definately also Think about getting a guided system for optimizing results in a way that new stones couldn't


This is the best argument I've heard for using a jig.
Still using a jig to me would be like spending an hour running on a treadmill in a gym instead of running on the beach that I live nearby to. If I wanted to systematically improve my running speed and time, track metrics etc I'm sure a treadmill is optimal and more consistent. But I don't run with the end goal of being a good runner at all. I just do it because it feels good. And I'm a **** sharpener for sure compared to most people here, but I do it freehand because it feels good. Its an activity and experience in and of itself. For those that are absorbed by the act of pulling their stone out of the bucket or splashing it with water, feeling the new edge settle after a few passes, hearing the metal change shape, with your hands connecting your mind to the edge on the stone, probably nothing could be worse than sterilising the process with a jig. And the ones that spend thousands on stones are probably the ones most absorbed by this act/art/connection of hands, metal and stone

I know thats some pretentious bs but. If there wasn't more to the experience or act of sharpening than meets the eye there wouldn't be a bunch of us hanging around here talking about it


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## mack (Dec 17, 2019)

Everyone to his own of course, but I simply want the best results in the least time. To me, sharpening knives is a necessary evil. That's why I use the system for microbevels and touch ups.

Mack.


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## Paraffin (Dec 18, 2019)

The convenience factor with freehand vs. guided systems doesn't get mentioned often enough (although I see Nemo just mentioned it above). My sharpening progression started many years ago freehand on diamond plates, then an Edge Pro system (both the smaller and large ones), and then back to freehand on stones. With the Edge Pro, it took so long to set up and tear down, and adjust it for different width blades and swapping out grit plates, that "sharpening" was something I always had to plan in advance, with enough time to do most of the knives in use. 

With my current setup, I have 400, 2k, and 6k stones submerged in at tub inside a utility sink, in a room next to the kitchen. If I start to use a knife and it needs a little touch-up, all I have to do is walk over and grab the stone, set it on the sink bridge, a few licks on the stone and it's done. So much faster and more convenient than setting up the Edge Pro and fiddling with the blade width and angle adjustment for different knives, and swapping out the plates for different grit sizes. 

I'm sure I'm losing a wee bit of consistency on the edge angle, but I can still achieve a freehand edge that's plenty sharp for kitchen use. As long as a knife passes the "glides through a tomato, and glides through a chicken breast" test, that's good enough for me.


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 18, 2019)

I recommend the Aligner Blade Guide by DMT, works great. Only $15 on Amazon, & I get to use my normal water stones.

A few flaws & fixes: 
It’s cheaply made Plastics for angle adjustment, I had to glue the joints shut so the angle won’t move. No more adjustments, I am limited to a fixed 15 degree angle.

It’s meant for small knife. For chef knife which is too long, it’s not very stable angle if using only one. I use two of them in parallel to form a stable angle guide, & I get perfect 15 degree edge on my 180- 210mm Gyuto every time. The only down side is that I still can’t free hand without it. 
*
*


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## mack (Dec 18, 2019)

Paraffin said:


> With my current setup, I have 400, 2k, and 6k stones submerged in at tub inside a utility sink, in a room next to the kitchen. If I start to use a knife and it needs a little touch-up, all I have to do is walk over and grab the stone, set it on the sink bridge, a few licks on the stone and it's done.



Hi!

All i have to do in that case is to open a drawer in my kitchen, take the dick micro out of it and give the knife 5 strokes on each side.

And because of that perfect closed edge I can reach with my bogdan I am able to do that for a long long time. 

So the argument of time isn't conclusive (of course only spoken for myself).

Mack.


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## Barmoley (Dec 18, 2019)

bogdan sounds like an interesting system that can be useful, but it is not clear how to get one or how much it actually is. There are also multiple versions it seems.


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## M1k3 (Dec 18, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> bogdan sounds like an interesting system that can be useful, but it is not clear how to get one or how much it actually is. There are also multiple versions it seems.



I agree. I did some googling. Found some YouTube videos. Found a few versions. @suntravel told me to contact the maker through Facebook. Gave up because I don't want Facebook again.


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## mack (Dec 18, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> bogdan sounds like an interesting system that can be useful, but it is not clear how to get one or how much it actually is. There are also multiple versions it seems.



Absolutely agree. Sadly.
There are his systems with pressure control and the ones without it. There are also some versions which can be compared to those Apex-systems.

I was lucky to get a newer version with pressure control with some improvements done compared to his first versions.
I was lucky once again, when I was able to be part of a bulk order done in a german forum, where there was one guy who was able to communicate with Bogdan. I paid 450€, not cheap but to me worth every cent. I have quite some knives in that price range, so there is no difference in having 21 or 20 and a bogdan.

Mack.


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## Benuser (Dec 18, 2019)

mack said:


> Hi!
> 
> All i have to do in that case is to open a drawer in my kitchen, take the dick micro out of it and give the knife 5 strokes on each side.
> 
> ...


Wondering how with the Dick micro you will find the exact angle that was so essential with Bogdan's jig.


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## mack (Dec 19, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Wondering how with the Dick micro you will find the exact angle that was so essential with Bogdan's jig.



That's not important. It is important that the starting basis is good. If so, you can keep a sharp edge for a long time so that you don't have to go on stones for a long time. This is, where I save time. 

I am a home cook - again - that is important to mention, so I cannot talk about professional chefs and their necessities but for me it is the best combination to once close the edge and put a perfect microbevel on the knife (with Bogdan) and then simply use the Dick micro. This works for a long time. If a touch up on stones is necessary, I do it simply on my 5K Naniwa Professional and I need just a few strokes on both sides. I don't need a coarser stone, which means that I remove as less steel as possible.

And as @Eloh already mentioned, I am no Bogdan or jig fundamentalist, if you get good results without it, everything is perfect. But for me it is a helpful tool. 

Mack.


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## Benuser (Dec 19, 2019)

Not important? But what angle do you apply? Are you sure you don't create a new microbevel on top of the 5k-one?
I'm familiar with the Dick micro. It leaves a kind of 8k result.


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## mack (Dec 19, 2019)

The important thing is, to close the edge again. A closed edge lasts longer, at least in my experience. Dick micro isn't removing any steel, so I am only closing the edge with this tool. Therefore I start a little steeper so that I make sure to reach the whole edge. I am not that guy who tries to put maximum sharpness on his knives, I usualy stop at 5K (sometimes I use my Suita, but I can't see a big difference to be honest), but I just want to touch up as rare as possible.

It is rather hard for me to explain in English, sorry.

Mack.


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## ian (Dec 19, 2019)

mack said:


> The important thing is, to close the edge again. A closed edge lasts longer, at least in my experience. Dick micro isn't removing any steel, so I am only closing the edge with this tool. Therefore I start a little steeper so that I make sure to reach the whole edge. I am not that guy who tries to put maximum sharpness on his knives, I usualy stop at 5K (sometimes I use my Suita, but I can't see a big difference to be honest), but I just want to touch up as rare as possible.
> 
> It is rather hard for me to explain in English, sorry.
> 
> Mack.




What does “close the edge” mean? I’m also a little confused about all of this. It seems like if you’re not removing material, then all you can be doing is straightening the edge.


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## mack (Dec 19, 2019)

Yeah, I'm sorry... I do my best...

You can look at this link, it's not my thread, but it's a friend of mine, who also uses a Bogdan. He got a new Sakai Yusuke and looked at the edge with an usb-microscope (I also use one, but for some it is simply an overkill, which I can understand, but for me it is fun and helpful to use it sometimes).

http://kochmalscharf.freeforums.net/thread/2247/sakai-yusuke-erstschliff

First pictures are right out of the box, the edge is not closed, i guess it was sharpened on a belt grinder or a big sharpening wheel. To use this knife out of the box is a bad idea, the edge gets damaged quickly (again - always spoken for myself - some may see that different), so he closed the edge, which you can see at the following pictures.

That's exactly the procedure I do with every new knife I get. I look at the edge under the microscope and put my own edge on the knife. Therefore I use my Bogdan. After that, I like using my Dick micro and only put the knife back on stones when it needs a touch up (which is needed less frequently when sharpened with system). Therefore again I use my Bogdan. And the edge lasts longer with a closed edge, even when using a dick micro regularly. That is what my experiences are.

Mack.


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## mack (Dec 19, 2019)

Here is btw a pic of my Bogdan, for all who don't know which system I am talking about:







Mack.


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## kayman67 (Dec 19, 2019)

ian said:


> What does “close the edge” mean? I’m also a little confused about all of this. It seems like if you’re not removing material, then all you can be doing is straightening the edge.



He's talking about something I've been preaching about for years, but no one listened until jigs like this, funny enough. With very thin edges on hard alloys, that are left with open micro serrations, the risk of killing the edge in different ways, is quite high up to certain. So what you do is to consolidate that edge. While I was researching for this, I also found out that going higher grit, in a proper manner (that now is said it can only be done with jigs, but since I've compared them myself, it's not entirely true), will improve edge retention and maintenance by quite a margin. This leads to the next question. Won't high grit affect cutting? The answer is not really. What most people do is to kill the edge themselves. At that level there's very little room for error. Hence the belief that these results can only be achieved using jigs. I was just talking with a friend that managed to get a good high grit edge, by hand and even with the most demanding cutting, the edge was above all expectations. For that grit he's prior experience was that it would stop cutting very fast. 
What about Micro and the angle? Here the angle is not that important as the goal is not to break the structure of the edge and Micro is as good as possible for this. It's the reason so many really appreciate it, maybe without even knowing what it does exactly, but they experience the results. Obviously it won't do any real damage, but it can't undo any damage either. It won't work forever or in any possible scenario. So it's not a solve all tool.
Another question is this. Won't a perfect apex round up faster and dull faster? Looks like it actually doesn't under the right circumstances. You really need to understand what you are sharpening and how. Because I'm taking this even further. The sequence used in sharpening and the nature of the abrasives will also have an impact on sharpness and edge retention.

These talks are the same as low grit and shaving edges. They don't make sense right away. Just how could a 80 grit edge shave hair? Well, it is possible. To be honest, until Cliff Stamp said so, I didn't even considered such a grit for anything.

There are things that don't necessarily always happen as expected.


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## ian (Dec 19, 2019)

kayman67 said:


> He's talking about something I've been preaching about for years, but no one listened until jigs like this, funny enough. With very thin edges on hard alloys, that are left with open micro serrations, the risk of killing the edge in different ways, is quite high up to certain. So what you do is to consolidate that edge.



It seems to me that by ‘consolidate’ or ‘close’, you just mean to refine the edge at a higher grit level, thus making the microserrations smaller. Yes?



kayman67 said:


> Won't high grit affect cutting? The answer is not really. What most people do is to kill the edge themselves. At that level there's very little room for error.



I agree that you have to be really careful not to blunt the edge on higher grit stones, undoing your previous work. But people generally prefer lower grit edges because of the micro serrations, which make it easier to saw through food. So in my opinion, having a high grit edge will affect cutting ability in that it’ll make it harder to cut through certain items, even with a perfect apex. Do you disagree? I agree with all your points about edge retention, in the sense that a high grit edge will maintain a more perfect apex longer. (Still may not cut better than a lower grit edge, though, precisely because of the serrations.)



kayman67 said:


> Here the angle is not that important as the goal is not to break the structure of the edge and Micro is as good as possible for this. It's the reason so many really appreciate it, maybe without even knowing what it does exactly, but they experience the results. Obviously it won't do any real damage, but it can't undo any damage either.



I’m a little unsatisfied with saying “well, it can’t hurt!” Presumably there’s an actual explanation for what the Dick micro is doing, if it does work.


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## tgfencer (Dec 19, 2019)

I sometimes sharpen a few of my 65 hrc knives, normally blue steels/equivalents designed for better edge retention, on a very hard and quite fine hatanaka asagi. It's not much, usually just a few light passes either side with emphasis on angle control and light, even pressure, but those edges last for ages with stropping (never actually kept track, but at least as long as my other edges) and will literally fall through a tomato. I think if you go for those higher grit refined edges, a hard stone is really useful because it allows you to maintain a high degree of accuracy in your angle and edge geometry, whereas a softer stone of similar grit might round an edge more easily. 
I could see how something like the Bogdan would be useful in accomplishing this task, especially if you want to be able to replicate your results easily. Personally, I enjoy the challenge of freehanding in this method, even if that means I screw up occasionally.


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## mack (Dec 19, 2019)

kayman67 said:


> He's talking about something I've been preaching about for years, but no one listened until jigs like this, funny enough.



I have no doubt that there are people, who are able to do this freehand. Unfortunately I don't belong to this group, so I need my Bogdan to get these results.

Mack.


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## Benuser (Dec 19, 2019)

IIRC 'closed' vs. 'open' is terminology used by Roman Landes to describe what to aim for with respectively finely or coarsely grained steels, who benefit from a high polish or don't so much.


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## Eloh (Dec 19, 2019)

The terminology is different in German, wich makes it difficult I guess. A few additions:
-Closed edge for this topic here basically means clean, fine, uniform edge without micro serrations (obviously also just to a certain extent) . It depends on the steel too (push cut vs slicing etc pp)

-A dick micro is abrasive, but way less than let's say even a kitayama 8k. There were some quantitative tests made, but I can't find the numbers atm.
It works just as a touch up and will convex the edge very slightly over time. But if we are talking about a microbevel with h=0,01mm the effect is minimal and if you do it correctly it's a very efficient procedure in terms of the amount of steel lost per sharpening. Also i might add it would of course be better to always touch up on a stone with a controlled angle. But a dick micro is just a good working compromise combined with a clean edge.
How good it works also always depends on the steel...

Also I want to add that a guided system makes more sense the higher alloyed the steel.
If I would try to sharpen my S290 edge (wich has huge amount of carbides) freehand I would 1. End up with a very sketchy convex edge because it's just a reality that not every stroke hits the edge
2. I need way more strokes because of the same reason.

For a 1085 type of steel it really doesn't make a lot of sense if you are good at freehand sharpening imo


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## kayman67 (Dec 19, 2019)

I guess at this point pretty much all the questions had been answered.

Jigs or no jigs, there's this reality that those edges will cut beyond what the first expectations would be based on, let's say, legacy expectations. I've put many hours into this years ago running actual cutting tests for months.


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## Codered (Dec 19, 2019)

The best guided system for a new guy? Use your hand! That's the best system. It's free of charge it's fun not a stupid machine and it's something you learn just like walking. Unless you are impared somehow you should be getting the hang of it after a few sharpenings : everybody else did.
Forget about devices unless you want to waste your money and never learn a thing.


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## Barashka (Dec 19, 2019)

mack said:


> Here is btw a pic of my Bogdan, for all who don't know which system I am talking about:
> Mack.


Backtracking a little, but that's very cool. I want to try to build that ...

After trying those 12 through 22 degree angle guides I thought I needed a bit more guidance.

Here's my setup I used to learn to keep angles:





And janky trial version:




(and it doesn't quite work for long knives ..)


If you have access to 3d printer there are a bunch of options on thingiverse:
https://www.thingiverse.com/search?sort=popular&q=sharpening+&type=things&dwh=85dfbec8ceb890

Neat super simple example: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3546958

A full size stone guided system: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2934931


Edit: to answer the question posed: the more you sharpen, after a while hands just remembered the rough angles, after that softer stone feedback helped guide me better. (also got larger knives) So for first-time sharpener with no guided systems, consider softer stones and really try to feel what resistance the stone gives you. I've also heard some success with those angle guides, but not for me.


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## Benuser (Dec 23, 2019)

Eloh said:


> The terminology is different in German, wich makes it difficult I guess. A few additions:
> -Closed edge for this topic here basically means clean, fine, uniform edge without micro serrations (obviously also just to a certain extent) . It depends on the steel too (push cut vs slicing etc pp)
> 
> -A dick micro is abrasive, but way less than let's say even a kitayama 8k. There were some quantitative tests made, but I can't find the numbers atm.
> ...


Why would you aim for a 'closed' edge with a highly charged, by essence 'open' alloy? If you're looking for push-cutting, better have a finely grained one.


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