# Masakage Aogami or Shirogami



## Joost (Aug 4, 2016)

Hi all,

I've had a cheap vg10 knife for a year now, which is fine for most cutting but it's edge retention is horrible, nearly same as my zwillings but without the option to be honed.

While searching for a new knife, the Masakage's caught my eye, both aogami and shirogami (both #2) series.

Now I was wondering: what is the practical difference between those steels?
I have found both are high in hrc, around 62/63, and both will be somewhat reactive as they are carbon steel.
Also, the aogami series is (way) cheaper than the shirogami series.

Any thoughts?


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## b2kk258 (Aug 4, 2016)

I don't have experience with Masakage. However, I do own a few knives made with blue and white #2. I would have to say that my white #2 knives do not retain it's edge as well as my knives in blue #2. I can make it through a busy two weeks at work with just stropping with the blue #2 and about a week on the white #2. Given that though, the white #2 feels so much better to sharpen and I feel that white #2 also gets a bit sharper.


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## Matus (Aug 4, 2016)

Blue steel has quite some Tungsten added which forms very hard carbides and thus the steel will hold the edge longer. On the other hand blue steel will be slightly more brittle and not quite as fine grained as white steel. Have a look at the [video=youtube;jkLsLst8qMc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkLsLst8qMc&list=PLEBF55079F53216AB&index=24[/video] Jon from JKI made about different steels, it will give you a great overview on the topic.

The Tungsten in blue steel makes it harder to forge and grind (also sharpen, but it is still pretty easy), plus the heat treat is little more demanding to get the temperatures and process right (I am half-guessing here), which together yields higher prices.

If you are after ultimate edge holding, than you should have a look at steels like A2 (SKD), D2 (SLD), PM steels (power metallurgy - SG2, SRS-15, etc.), super blue, zdp-189, etc. Most of them will however be harder to sharpen than simple-ish carbon steels like white or blue


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## Godslayer (Aug 4, 2016)

I presume this is masakage yuki and masakage mizu, the shimo line isn't for a new user. It's very reactive. The yuki line is a little bit thicker at the spine and bas far better fit and finish. Thé mizu is a budget line. Thé handle on thé yuki line is also much better. Red pakka Wood vs plastic. Saying that i do like the mizu lines looks


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## foody518 (Aug 4, 2016)

Which VG10 knife do you currently have? The edge retention comment is kind of surprising to me


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 5, 2016)

@Joost who told you you cannot hone VG10? It might be a bad idea to put a rough STEEL to it, but generally honing it is probably what you are missing... or you might be having a residual burr/wire edge issue with the VG10...

BTW, I still find it terribly confusing, some will say blue is the more resilient, some say it is the more brittle...  My own experience seems to suggest that while blue might hold an at-all usable edge longer, you can keep white in a state that can be gotten back to shaving sharp by non-abrasive means (unloaded strops like wood, paper....) longer.


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## LucasFur (Aug 5, 2016)

lifebya1000cuts makes a good point. 
but having owned both MIZU and Yuki .. the mizu keeps a longer edge if you don't want to touch it up. including touch ups its very close. I only went to the stones once with them both though. 

Also the Yuki is more lazer profile. - and i want to say the white is more reactive then the blue. 

lastly - the mizu handle soaks in water. so if you have wet hands, and touch the handle you can see the water marks in the handle until l it dries. ( might crack and be a problem long term)


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## KimBronnum (Aug 5, 2016)

I would like to recommend that you buy something other than Masakage. I have experience with yuki and Koishi lines and I only like the Koishi honesuke knife. I don´t think they were well made - they didn´t cut well. Just my 2 cents 
- Kim


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## aboynamedsuita (Aug 5, 2016)

KimBronnum said:


> I would like to recommend that you buy something other than Masakage. I have experience with yuki and Koishi lines and I only like the Koishi honesuke knife. I don´t think they were well made - they didn´t cut well. Just my 2 cents
> - Kim



Wasn't there a YouTube video where Maksim/Greg (I think it was one of them?) put a Masakage against another knife and it didn't do too well?


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## alterwisser (Aug 5, 2016)

I think one needs to be careful with recommending to buy (or not to buy) Masakage. It's really not a traditional company, but more of a brand marketing totally different knives made by various (more or less highly regarded) makers who also make and market knives in their own names. You really can't compare most of the Masakage brands or at least can't say "one is good (bad), all are good (bad)". 

While I'm not a Masakage fanboy, some of them are decent cutters. I have a Yuki Nakiri which is a bit too thick behind the edge, but I heard of others who love it after thinning. I think the F&F is pretty good and I like the looks.

I also have a Shimo Gyuto. And while the reactivity is one of the worst there is, it's a pretty darn good cutter and Yu Kurosaki (the smith) is widely considered one of the young up and coming smiths, if I'm not mistaken...


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## KimBronnum (Aug 5, 2016)

I hear you, and I didn't meen to bash Masakage I was just disappointed with most of mine. I also stated that my coment was about Yuki and Koishi. The Koishi in the above mentioned video was mine.


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## alterwisser (Aug 5, 2016)

KimBronnum said:


> I hear you, and I didn't meen to bash Masakage I was just disappointed with most of mine. I also stated that my coment was about Yuki and Koishi. The Koishi in the above mentioned video was mine.



Didn't mean to call you out. Just felt that that often there's a misconception or misunderstanding out there about Masakage Knives. A lot of times people talk about it in a way they talk about a brand like Konosuke. Which is a totally different setup... [emoji6]


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## Nomo4me (Aug 6, 2016)

I love my Koishi's. Largest shown here is the 210mm at top. I have the 240mm but have no need for it so it stays in the safe. 
The bugaboo with this line is the microchrystaline (etched) finish that is responsible for so much cutting resistance due to surface friction. I found that I could work these blades heavily against a fine Scotchbrite 1x30 belt and remove the roughness without taking off the black finish as shown in the 2nd pic.


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## LifeByA1000Cuts (Aug 6, 2016)

@alterwisser doesn't help either that some knives seem to be sold as a Masakage line in certain channels/in certain regions, and sold under the smith's name in others...


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## SilverSwarfer (Mar 15, 2019)

Nomo4me said:


> I love my Koishi's. Largest shown here is the 210mm at top. I have the 240mm but have no need for it so it stays in the safe.
> The bugaboo with this line is the microchrystaline (etched) finish that is responsible for so much cutting resistance due to surface friction. I found that I could work these blades heavily against a fine Scotchbrite 1x30 belt and remove the roughness without taking off the black finish as shown in the 2nd pic.


@Nomo4me -
Smart move smoothing off that finish! It is quite problematic for me when pushing through thin slices of fish. 

I had considered working on this with some finger stones. Eventually. But your method is intriguing. 

I have Koishi sujihiki 270. This region is as hollow ground behind the edge. I can’t imagine how to access with a belt. Can you explain how you did it?

I believe Kato is the maker for my blade. In my case, it’s a great performer! The grind is very nice: thin behind the edge but substantially thick to be rigid all the way to the tip. The only area for improvement would be this texture. It’s aesthetically pleasing but for me, performance is the focus. I will add this stickiness has not been an issue with wet products; but only proteins sliced very thinly.


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## Gregmega (Mar 15, 2019)

If you want to stick to stainless, I highly suggest the kikuichi warkomi gold. Folks never believe me for all my other collection, but it gets the toothiest edge and has great retention for a vg10, it felt more like shirogomi than a stainless. It sharpens really easily as well. I used to bang with one in a high volume kitchen for ease of maintenance and durability.


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## Cyrilix (Mar 15, 2019)

When people say hard to sharpen where it relates to any of these steels, it's probably way overstated. The only steel I've really found to be hard to sharpen is 3cr13 and you'll only find that on cheap knives.


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## Cyrilix (Mar 15, 2019)

LifeByA1000Cuts said:


> @Joost who told you you cannot hone VG10? It might be a bad idea to put a rough STEEL to it, but generally honing it is probably what you are missing... or you might be having a residual burr/wire edge issue with the VG10...
> 
> BTW, I still find it terribly confusing, some will say blue is the more resilient, some say it is the more brittle...  My own experience seems to suggest that while blue might hold an at-all usable edge longer, you can keep white in a state that can be gotten back to shaving sharp by non-abrasive means (unloaded strops like wood, paper....) longer.



Resilience and edge retention are not the same thing.

Edge retention is how long your edge will remain sharp under typical force.

Resilience, or often called durability, is how unlikely your edge is to chip or majorly deform under increased force.

In other words, a knife that will be abused must be durable. A knife that will be used may not necessarily benefit from durability, although that will be a nice to have.

Blue steel, given the structure of the steel, should have longer edge retention than white steel, but for the same reasons, should be more brittle than white steel (although I've not found blue #2 to be brittle at high hardness under regular operation).


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## bahamaroot (Mar 15, 2019)

Why the resurrection of a 2 1/2 yr old thread?


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## LucasFur (Mar 15, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Why the resurrection of a 2 1/2 yr old thread?


because silverswafer wants to talk about Masakage .... and all the current discussions are about konosuke/shig/Kato(fujiwara)


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## SilverSwarfer (Mar 15, 2019)

LucasFur said:


> because silverswafer wants to talk about Masakage .... and all the current discussions are about konosuke/shig/Kato(fujiwara)


lol

I am trying to figure a good way to modify the textured finish behind the edge- in a similar way as mentioned by Nomo.

... then things get weird


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## LucasFur (Mar 15, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> lol
> 
> I am trying to figure a good way to modify the textured finish behind the edge- in a similar way as mentioned by Nomo.
> 
> ... then things get weird


No idea amigo.... did you try rubbing on a stone LOL?

Genuinely over the years at knife wear I've seen different finishes on the koishi lines .... 
I would say put it on the stones and use ferric chloride to darken. :/


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## gman (Mar 15, 2019)

repeated washing with a green scrubby will take that black finish off, and they do perform better after that


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## bahamaroot (Mar 17, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> I am trying to figure a good way to modify the textured finish behind the edge- in a similar way as mentioned by Nomo.


Are you wanting to smooth the bead blasting on the blade road or the KU finish? I was not a fan of the bead blasting on the blade road of my Koishi and hand sanded it with 800 and then 1k sandpaper.


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## SilverSwarfer (Mar 17, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Are you wanting to smooth the bead blasting on the blade road or the KU finish? I was not a fan of the bead blasting on the blade road of my Koishi and hand sanded it with 800 and then 1k sandpaper.


The blade road texture is what I think needs improvement. 

The Kurouchi is great, although not actually functionally effective, it lends a very appropriate aesthetic.


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## SilverSwarfer (Mar 17, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> Are you wanting to smooth the bead blasting on the blade road or the KU finish? I was not a fan of the bead blasting on the blade road of my Koishi and hand sanded it with 800 and then 1k sandpaper.


I’d appreciate an opportunity to see how it turned out. Would you post a pic?


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## bahamaroot (Mar 17, 2019)

I recently sold the knife to a close friend but I can say I thought it turned out nicely and the new owner liked the look over bead blasting also. It does take a little skill and patience but it is not difficult to do if you take your time and check your work. The biggest challenge is keeping the scratch pattern straight.


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## Itsjun (Mar 17, 2019)

Masakage Aogami chip often.
If you're looking for a high hrc for edge retention, maybe you can go for Mazaki. 65hrc at the price of a normal shirogami


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## limpet (Mar 17, 2019)

Even though this is an old thread, I can give a comment. In my experience... only beginners, steel nerds or pros wanting to optimimize edge retention worry about the general differences between shirogami and aogami. As a home cook you should care more about geometry, profile and grind, imo. Well, those attributes should be important for a pro as well, I guess.


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## Cyrilix (Mar 17, 2019)

limpet said:


> Even though this is an old thread, I can give a comment. In my experience... only beginners, steel nerds or pros wanting to optimimize edge retention worry about the general differences between shirogami and aogami. As a home cook you should care more about geometry, profile and grind, imo. Well, those attributes should be important for a pro as well, I guess.


Why not worry about everything? If you post here, you are an enthusiast. Profile, grind, steel and heat treatment, and as a result edge taking ability, retention, and toughness. Why sacrifice anything?


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## lemeneid (Mar 17, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Resilience and edge retention are not the same thing.
> 
> Edge retention is how long your edge will remain sharp under typical force.
> 
> ...


I think the correct term is wear resistance and toughness.
Wear resistance is basically related to edge retention and how long the knife will hold an edge.
Toughness relates to how well it can take impact and other forces and how it will react.

As for Blue#2, what I've heard is more makers rather use Blue#2 instead of Blue#1 because it can get to almost the same hardness whilst not sacrificing on the toughness. In general, the more carbon you have the less tough it will become. 

In my opinion, steel matters little when selecting a knife. I rather look for a knife that has the best heat treat to bring out the best qualities in the steel. This is where specs don't matter much and it all depends on the blacksmith to bring out the best in the steel. With a good heat treat, you will have great sharpness, edge retention and toughness, regardless of steel.

That said, as a home cook myself, I rather pick white steel over blue. But of course, the knives I've picked all have amazing heat treats that maximise for edge retention, sharpness and toughness


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## LucasFur (Mar 17, 2019)

Itsjun: all steel can be chippy if mistreated, just widen your sharpening angle to suit. I would imagine white 2 at 65 is more chippy. And I would say my TF shiro is much more chippy than any softer aogami knives. 

Limpet... I agree with you. 
Cyrillic... The way I see it there are 2 paths for those starting out home cooks both not mutually exclusive. 1. Get a high edge retention knife, bring it/ship it off to get sharpened once a year or more. 2. Get a "lower" edge retention knife with stones, sharpen quickly every few months. Maybe take out some low spots, thin a tip. Those in option 2 get the most out of their knives and dollars spent, learn the most, actually learn to maintain their own stuff because really... it's not hard.

And you can know that your knife is genuinely dull, sometimes the high end steels dull so slowly that you don't notice for years.


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## limpet (Mar 17, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> Why not worry about everything? If you post here, you are an enthusiast. Profile, grind, steel and heat treatment, and as a result edge taking ability, retention, and toughness. Why sacrifice anything?


Well, I think grind and geometry can make a huge difference compared to if it’s aogami or shirogami. You have big variables and small variables. If you find two almost identical knives and the difference is only the small variables, look at the small variables. If you’re a beginner and don’t know what profile and grind is best for your technique - worry less about if it’s aogami or shirogami.

To be clear, I’m talking about aogami vs shirogami here. Not any steel vs another steel.


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## Cyrilix (Mar 17, 2019)

limpet said:


> Well, I think grind and geometry can make a huge difference compared to if it’s aogami or shirogami. You have big variables and small variables. If you find two almost identical knives and the difference is only the small variables, look at the small variables. If you’re a beginner and don’t know what profile and grind is best for your technique - worry less about if it’s aogami or shirogami.
> 
> To be clear, I’m talking about aogami vs shirogami here. Not any steel vs another steel.


For sure, I look at it this way. Do I want to try a blue #2? Who makes the best (or among the best) blue #2 (for me)? Okay, I'll buy that one. That's how I ended up with 2 Wats. Edge lasts a long time, works great at 8-10 degrees per side with a microbevel, what's the next thing I want to try? Stainless PM with carbides less than 10 micron in size. Obvious answer here is R2. Who makes among the best R2? Takamura. So off I go to buy a Hana. Rinse and repeat until I've checked off all the things I want to try. Given that I know what the theoretical differences are between white and blue, and I have a good blue, the white just doesn't seem enticing. I will eventually get around to trying it because there's so much of it in the market. I know white is supposed to be easy to sharpen, but I consider even vg10 easy to sharpen, and blue is very easy to sharpen, so it makes no difference for me. The only steels I hate sharpening are 3cr13 and 4cr13.


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## limpet (Mar 17, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> For sure, I look at it this way. Do I want to try a blue #2? Who makes the best (or among the best) blue #2 (for me)? Okay, I'll buy that one. That's how I ended up with 2 Wats. Edge lasts a long time, works great at 8-10 degrees per side with a microbevel, what's the next thing I want to try? Stainless PM with carbides less than 10 micron in size. Obvious answer here is R2. Who makes among the best R2? Takamura. So off I go to buy a Hana. Rinse and repeat until I've checked off all the things I want to try. Given that I know what the theoretical differences are between white and blue, and I have a good blue, the white just doesn't seem enticing. I will eventually get around to trying it because there's so much of it in the market. I know white is supposed to be easy to sharpen, but I consider even vg10 easy to sharpen, and blue is very easy to sharpen, so it makes no difference for me. The only steels I hate sharpening are 3cr13 and 4cr13.


Ok. You’re clearly very much into steels and that’s fine. To each their own. I’m more like: Heavy or light blade? Thick or thin? Wide, tall bevel or low? Low convex? Thick spine with distal taper? Profile - how does it affect my technique on the board? That sort of things. When it comes to steel, I prefer carbon steel because I consider it easy to sharpen scary sharp. I have mostly jknives so that means shirogami/aogami.


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## SilverSwarfer (Mar 17, 2019)

LucasFur said:


> Itsjun: all steel can be chippy if mistreated, just widen your sharpening angle to suit. I would imagine white 2 at 65 is more chippy. And I would say my TF shiro is much more chippy than any softer aogami knives.
> 
> Limpet... I agree with you.
> Cyrillic... The way I see it there are 2 paths for those starting out home cooks both not mutually exclusive. 1. Get a high edge retention knife, bring it/ship it off to get sharpened once a year or more. 2. Get a "lower" edge retention knife with stones, sharpen quickly every few months. Maybe take out some low spots, thin a tip. Those in option 2 get the most out of their knives and dollars spent, learn the most, actually learn to maintain their own stuff because really... it's not hard.
> ...



IME, steel characteristics _really_ become a factor when you are a sharpening enthusiast. While you may be able to discern subtle differences as a cutter/slicer/chopper/etc (difficult unless you've paid attention to a lot of experience); you can really tell a difference if you enjoy spending time sharpening. 

You have to enjoy sharpening first: it's the key to understanding and appreciating what matters about the characteristics of the different steels. Add in the way different makers heat treat their preferred materials, and you can really enjoy massive appreciation for stated characteristics. I have had, and still enjoy having, moments when I reach/feel a new level of performance. Once you understand for yourself, you can better select particular steels for specific applications or POU's. Or you can better understand how to pick a "compromise" or all-purpose steel.

Taking your sharpening results to the cutting board then becomes a wholly more comprehensive experience. You see things differently. You can diagnose problems and make adjustments. Then ultimately, your _product_ really shines. Things look and feel better and better.

And you can never get bored! -- In recent years, there are new steels on the market; or at least there are makers that are offering what we want with different steels. I haven't tried BD1N or NitroV or even 52100. I am new to SG2. I have experimented with pocket knives in S30V, S35VN, CPMM4, Cruwear; but it doesn't work the same for me- sharpening doesn't translate to the Kitchen Knife 1:1. But I have to imagine there are steels that lend beneficial characteristics beyond Shirogami and Aogami and AS. Why not a Cruwear yanagiba??


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## bahamaroot (Mar 17, 2019)

Itsjun said:


> Masakage Aogami chip often...


A very general blanket statement that's not necessarily true. I never had a problem with my Masakage Koishi chipping.


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## SilverSwarfer (Mar 17, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> A very general blanket statement that's not necessarily true. I never had a problem with my Masakage Koishi chipping.


Nor me. I wonder how many different blades have chipped, under what usage conditions and sharpening profiles, in your experience, ItsJun? 

I only have the 1 Koishi Suji 270mm. Edge retention is excellent and no chipping with a <12degree, no micro bevel profile. But I only use for certain purposes: Cutting sushi rolls and veg/fish prep for sushi service. But under conditions of busy service in restaurant environment, so maybe relatively gentle but definitely rigorous.


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## SilverSwarfer (Mar 17, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> Nor me. I wonder how many different blades have chipped, under what usage conditions and sharpening profiles, in your experience, ItsJun?
> 
> I only have the 1 Koishi Suji 270mm. Edge retention is excellent and no chipping with a <12degree, no micro bevel profile. But I only use for certain purposes: Cutting sushi rolls and veg/fish prep for sushi service. But under conditions of busy service in restaurant environment, so maybe relatively gentle but definitely rigorous.


Oh, and important to note, my single Masakage is in Aogami Super, maybe not a relevant comment. Reflective of my experience nonetheless!


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## Cyrilix (Mar 17, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> IME, steel characteristics _really_ become a factor when you are a sharpening enthusiast. While you may be able to discern subtle differences as a cutter/slicer/chopper/etc (difficult unless you've paid attention to a lot of experience); you can really tell a difference if you enjoy spending time sharpening.
> 
> You have to enjoy sharpening first: it's the key to understanding and appreciating what matters about the characteristics of the different steels. Add in the way different makers heat treat their preferred materials, and you can really enjoy massive appreciation for stated characteristics. I have had, and still enjoy having, moments when I reach/feel a new level of performance. Once you understand for yourself, you can better select particular steels for specific applications or POU's. Or you can better understand how to pick a "compromise" or all-purpose steel.
> 
> ...



While it's true that there are a lot of new steels out there, I'm more and more finding that most of them don't have great properties for kitchen knives. Some of them have huge carbide volume or huge carbides due to extensive alloying. On the other hand, you have a steel like AEB-L that has great kitchen knife properties and Larrin is still finding ways to give it better heat treats so it can be more and more amazing. I'm actually quite happy with the traditional blue paper and white paper steels we have and PM steels like R2. Very well balanced and with good tradeoffs.

I'm excited to know what can be done with Niobium alloys but am definitely seeing refinement of existing balanced steels as the next step up instead of figuring out how to add 10% tungsten and vanadium.


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## SilverSwarfer (Mar 18, 2019)

Cyrilix said:


> While it's true that there are a lot of new steels out there, I'm more and more finding that most of them don't have great properties for kitchen knives. Some of them have huge carbide volume or huge carbides due to extensive alloying. On the other hand, you have a steel like AEB-L that has great kitchen knife properties and Larrin is still finding ways to give it better heat treats so it can be more and more amazing. I'm actually quite happy with the traditional blue paper and white paper steels we have and PM steels like R2. Very well balanced and with good tradeoffs.
> 
> I'm excited to know what can be done with Niobium alloys but am definitely seeing refinement of existing balanced steels as the next step up instead of figuring out how to add 10% tungsten and vanadium.


I agree with the perceived limitations of the high carbide steels. And I recognize challenges presented with ultra high wear resistance alloys. We can’t use things we can’t sharpen. 

But I do think steels like Cruwear and Elmax can have relevant applications; they are just not traditionally used and so the familiar makers don’t look to them. 

I for one would very interested to try explore knives made with an array of steels. 

I say all this while I realize my skills are far from proficient enough to get the most out of what I can already access. I admit the potential of the materials currently available exceeds my ability to exploit their benefits. But maybe there’s some advantage to be gained nonetheless.


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## SilverSwarfer (Aug 29, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> @Nomo4me -
> Smart move smoothing off that finish! It is quite problematic for me when pushing through thin slices of fish.
> 
> I had considered working on this with some finger stones. Eventually. But your method is intriguing.
> ...


Update on discussion re: improvements to a Masakage Koishi Suji:

I have been enjoying this knife at work these past few months. It serves as an all purpose utility blade when I’m not just cutting rolls through service. I remain very happy with performance overall. It’s a low maintenance, tough and fun knife. The AS steel in this case serves me very well for my purposes. 

The reason I’ve used it so much recently is I finally ground off the original texture that was discussed in this thread. This all stemmed from a broken tip incident. I just decided to have at it and take a risk, since it was a (slightly) damaged knife anyway. 

I love the results! 

Through the grinding I found a good half dozen low spots, which caused this to become a multiple session project. Projects like this, I find are best accomplished with patient tenacity. Can’t grind when you’re frustrated or rushed. I have to mention that grinding the SS cladding through my progressions was not fun. Anyone else agree SS cladding sux on the stones?

I mention the low spots because I feel confident that’s the reason for the original texturing. KU knives are rough by definition and I’m absolutely cool with that. I’d rather not pay for a polish in some cases. I deeply enjoy polishing. 

The finish the knife currently wears might be optimal for me. Easy maintenance and slick!


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## Ryndunk (Aug 29, 2019)

I did the same with my kioshi suji. The first time I used it, I chipped the edge on a bone in a supposedly boneless pork loin. Ground the bevels flat while removing the chip. Performs way better than straight out of the box.


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