# First knife for a hobby-cook!



## berndd (Jan 2, 2015)

Hey guys!


I'm new here to the forums, I've been reading quite a bit lately about kitchen knives and I've decided to purchase my first decent chef's knife or gyuto!

I've filled in the standard list for you to have an idea what my expectations are!

*LOCATION*
Belgium



*KNIFE TYPE*
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chef's knife / Gyuto

Are you right or left handed?
Right handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
No clue, I've only handled cheap european knives

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
210 - 240mm; I think the latter would be best as I want an all-round knife and have big hands.

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
I'm willing to put in the work to keep my knife in the best shape possible.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
I was thinking about spending around 100 EUR.



*KNIFE USE*
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home use

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Slicing, chopping, mincing vegetables, slicing cooked & uncooked meats

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
A small peeling knife from robert herder which I use to basically cut everything!

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip feels the most natural to me

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Since I'm not a professionaly trained cook I use the rocking motion for smaller veggies & chopping for onions etc. 

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
I am looking for a very sharp knife for cutting meats & veggies! I won't abuse it by chopping through frozen foods / bones so a japanese knife would be an option!


*KNIFE MAINTENANCE*
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes, wood.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
No

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes, I was thinking about a ceramic sharpening steel & wetting stone?


I've identified a few knives myself:
Tojiro DP 240mm 
Eden Kanso Aogami 230mm

The Tojiro DP fits my budget if I order it from an amazon dealer, which I've never ordered from so I don't know how it works in terms of service & warranty. The Eden Kanso Aogami was my first choice but I'm not sure about the durability of the blue paper steel.

Any advice or other options I've overlooked?

Thanks in advance!


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## Matus (Jan 2, 2015)

Hi berndd - welcome aboard! 

First about the Tojiro - that is a very nice knife for the money - and probably hard to beat in the price range. It is also a stainless knife. I have never heard of Eden Kanso before (but then I have not heard about many other knives too). It _looks_ nice, but looks alone tells little about the knife. If it has half decent grind and heat treat, than in could be a great bargain. Maybe others have more experience. It is also carbon knife and will need little more care (not that hard though) It will also be easier (and more pleasurable) to sharpen.

It is not easy to find a 210 or 240 getup within 100 Euro - you may consider checking the BST section - it might be a good idea to get a used knife.

It is outside your price range, but Itinomonn knives from Maksim from JNS (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com , Denmark and free shipping above 1000 DKK) highly regarded and 210 with kurouchi finish start at 160, just to bug you a little  It seems that you will have a sensible approach and do not need a 'beater' knife to start with.

Another option would be to check out the off from JCK (http://japanesechefsknife.com) - they shop for $7 from Japan, but with import duties you will probably not fit within 100 (though maybe close)

Few words on the sharpening - if you get a nice knife that does not need thinning or other 'heavy weight' work out of the box, than a 1000 and 6000 stones (for example the combinations 1000/6000 stone from King) is all that you will need for quite a while. Later you may add a coarse stone and that is all one really needs.

To learn more about free hand sharpening on Japanese stones just check out the *youtube playlist* of Jon Broida from JKI (http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com)

Have fun!


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## chinacats (Jan 2, 2015)

Greetings! 

Matus offers good advice. 

Agreed that I also know nothing about that other knife, but blue paper steel (blue 2 usually) is very good steel in the hands of the right maker--like most good steels. If you want carbon (also blue 2) I would suggest that a Tanaka may fit your price range and it is a very good knife for that money. Not sure where to buy in Europe but maybe someone else will know? I believe a 240 to be right around $140 USD.

Good luck!


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## berndd (Jan 2, 2015)

I can't find much on Eden but it's the in-house brand of knivesandtools, here's the quote from their website:



> Knivesandtools.co.uk has designed the home brand Eden Quality as the driving force behind various online shops. These are always products of exceptionally high quality. And the value for money is unprecedented. That is because the products are directly purchased from manufacturers who also produce for famous brands. By selling directly to the consumers Knivesandtools.co.uk can guarantee first class quality at very sharp prices.



But would a blue paper steel knife be significantly sharper than the Tojiro? And what about buying from an amazon-dealer?

On their site they recommend buying a ceramic sharpening steel to keep your knife sharp? Would that suffice or is a wetting stone necessary?

Thank you so far for the advice!


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## chinacats (Jan 2, 2015)

Steel is much less important than the person working the steel. How they cut will be more influenced by geometry than steel or sharpness. Skip the ceramic steel for anything hard--blue steel--if you plan on learning to sharpen then no time like the present


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## psfred (Jan 2, 2015)

I have never had a problem buying through Amazon. Tojiro makes a very good knife, and that is an excellent choice for a first Japanese knife -- hard to go wrong and the price and they have a reputation for VERY good heat treatment.

I doubt you would notice the difference in sharpness between a blue label steel knife and the Tojiro until you have considerable practice at sharpening. You will have to maintain either to keep them super sharp anyway, and VG-10 isn't really difficult to sharpen. Not as easy as non-stainless, but not a super challange either.

I would plan to get stones and learn to sharpen, at least with a 1000 grit and 6000 grit, as you will not be happy with either knife until you learn to sharpen and maintain an edge. Just the nature of the knives. 

The only think I don't like about the Tojiro I bought is that it is the 210mm and I really should have gotten the 240. I have upgraded my cutting board and could use the longer blade.

Peter


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## ShadowyFox (Jan 3, 2015)

As a current user of a Tojiro DP, they're wonderful knives. Straight out of the box, they're the sharpest thing I've ever handled, and I honestly don't trust anyone to use them yet, except for me. So I know from experience those will treat you right.


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## Matus (Jan 3, 2015)

I second the recommendation of getting 240 rather than 210. Unless you are space limited or simply prefer smaller knives, the 210 may start to feel small for certain tasks after few months. it is surprising how large difference those 30mm in blade length are. 

If you re fine (or prefer) stainless knife, than the Tojiro DP is hard to beat for the money. I have just recently bought the santoku and apart from the fact that it claimed quite a chunk from my left index finger it really cuts well, is well finished, has even grind and came really sharp (toothy, aggressive edge).

Should you prefer to get a carbon knife, than the aforementioned Tanaka in blue steel (there are also expensive Tanaka knives with R2 steel and damascus cladding - we are not talking about then here) should be a good choice too. 

Another option could be Zakuri from *tosa-hocho* (german seller) - 210 costs 121 and 240 - 145, although at that price I would probably rather get the Itinomonn from JNS.

Or you could take one for the team  and buy that Eden Kanso knife. I have just noticed that the length of the cutting edge is 22cm - so closer to 210 than 240. The video looks nice though - fit&finish seems OK. The choil shot was taken under angle, but it looks OK too, IMO. And the return policy of the shop would allow you to send the knife back should it not fit your needs.

On the sharpening - the sharpening steel is OK solution for softer stainless knives where you can quickly remove enough material and where going to finer grit (since the steel is soft anyway) does not make so much sense. But for knives that are being discussed here - getting 2 stone combo (or one combination stone) is much better solution overall. Trying to use sharpening steel on thin & hard japanese blades would probably only lead to frustration and/or damaged edge.


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## berndd (Jan 3, 2015)

Something else I was wondering about ordering the Tojiro from Amazon. Will there be extra import duties or is this included in the listed price since it's german amazon?

I'm having a hard time to decide wether to go with stainless or carbon ;D Goddamnit!

If I do decide to take one for the team and orderthe Eden Kanso Aogami, how do I evaluate the knife and see if it's decent?

Besides that Matus (and everyone else] thank you for the info. I see that you're from Germany. Do you know of any knife store nearby Aachen where I can hold/see/test these knives for myself?


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## Matus (Jan 3, 2015)

The thing with Amazon is not clear to me - I have ordered items (I am in Germany, so similar situation like you) that were from Japan and they were delivered without any duties (Germany is otherwise very strict). But when I order the Tojiro DP (was about 45 ) the postman asked for custom duties directly (it was only 5 as the package was not declared at full value). I wanted to contact Amazon directly, but 5 just was not enough to bother. You may want to drop them an email to be sure. I still think that the duty I payed was a mix-up as the package was not marked properly (no mention of Amazon of any kind).

Assessing the quality of a knife is not easy and I would not fancy myself to be able to do it in full. Some stuff will only show with time (like over-grinds or bad heat treat). But from the top of my head uou should first check the following: 
- is the knife is straight - point it with the tip towards your eye and check the spine and the cutting edge. 
- have a look at the grind - is it regular or are there some obvious issues - like some spots ground too much.
- run (carefully) your thumb and index finger across the blade from the spine to the cutting edge on several places and try to 'feel' the grind. 
- look at the handle - does it have any cracks or voids. How does the fitting of the knife tang and handle is? Is the handle 'in line' with the blade?
- hopefully you will get more ideas from others.

Additional tests (not searching for a defects here) 
- ist the knife sharp out of the box (just browse for the meaning of: nail test, 3 finger test) - does it shave arm and push-cut paper? If it is not sharp it is not a defect of course, but it will make it impossible to get an idea how the knife cuts before you will have it sharpened. 
- so if sharp - how does the knife cuts different vegetables? Does the stuff you cut stick, does the knife wedge in harder food (carrots) or does it even get stuck? 

- Once you start to cat vegetables and fruit the knife will develop patina quite fast and returning it may be a problem unless you are able to remove it (something like bar keeper's friend or similar).

I am, sadly, not aware of any decent knife shop in Germany. At some point I was trying to locate some, but I failed. Does not mean they do not exist, I am just doubtful they do. And if they do - I would expect seriously overpriced stainless steel knives with stainless damascus cladding. If you want to see some real stuff, then you best best is to contact Maxim from JNS and register for the gathering in May 2015 if you have the time (I would love to)


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## kpnv (Jan 3, 2015)

Tojiro dp and fujiwara fkm are two great choices.
Misono Molybdenum and Suisin Inox Western are two slightly more expensive alternatives.

tojiro's are the easiest to find around the world and they're really great value.

i generally do not recommend people starting out get carbon knives.


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## mhpr262 (Jan 3, 2015)

Hallo bernd, you could try dictum/mehr-als-werkzeug.de. They have a very fine collection of Japanese and Japanese-style german knives and waterstones and very knowledgeable salespersons. I own the 210mm Tetsuhiro gyuto and is it a very well-made knife.

http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/719693/Tetsuhiro-Hocho-Gyuto-Fisch--und-Fleischmesser.htm


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## berndd (Jan 4, 2015)

I think I'm set on the Tojiro DP 240MM.

It's just a matter of checking where to buy it. I found some others on ebay which I kind of prefer over amazon.

http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/TOJIRO-...90911295296?pt=AU_Cutlery&hash=item5b0420ff40

http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Tojiro-...424?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19f4bd2338

Which one would you guys go for?


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## Karnstein (Jan 4, 2015)

berndd said:


> I can't find much on Eden but it's the in-house brand of knivesandtools, here's the quote from their website:



The Eden Kanso is made by Sirou Kamo... some guys on the german knife-board Messerforum.net wondered about the similarities between the Kanso and the Sirou Kamo Kamo-to Kuro. One of them send a mail to k&t and they replied that the line is produced by Sirou Kamo... as a result of that quite a few users went out giving that knife a chance, the results (in German) and some pictures showing the geometry and the fit & finish can be found here.


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## Matus (Jan 4, 2015)

Karnstein said:


> The Eden Kanso is made by Sirou Kamo... some guys on the german knife-board Messerforum.net wondered about the similarities between the Kanso and the Sirou Kamo Kamo-to Kuro. One of them send a mail to k&t and they replied that the line is produced by Sirou Kamo... as a result of that quite a few users went out giving that knife a chance, the results (in German) and some pictures showing the geometry and the fit & finish can be found here.



There is a lot of interesting information there, thank you!

For those that do not read German, here is summary:
- F&F is not spectacular, but OK.
- the knife is not a laser, but is reasonably thin behind the edge
- there are some spots on the kurouchi that look a bit like fingerprints. Nothing tragical but it is there.
- the knife holds the edge well
- users seems satisfied with the knife

=> looks like it could be a good value


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## berndd (Jan 6, 2015)

Hm, I'm still confused  I don't want to spend alot of money but with shipment & customs the Tojiro sets me back around 90 EUR. 

Might as well go for the Kanso Aogami then. Is anyone interested in ordering one with me? 

There's a discount for buying a set (so 2x 23cm would give you 40 EUR discount].


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## Matus (Jan 6, 2015)

You know - I was sharpening Tojiro DP Santoku today - it got really scary sharp, but it was also quite some work to get there (I was starting from the factory edge which was OK, but way too toothy). I was also working on some carbon knives and the feel on stones is so much different and easier to sharpen. I personally think that you would have more fun with the Kanso - the knife will feel different, not so handle heavy and will change with time (patina). If that part of the equations is of any importance to you, than getting a carbon knife is a way to go


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## berndd (Jan 6, 2015)

Want one?  I'll ship one to germany haha


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## berndd (Jan 6, 2015)

They just added a new range of knives to their store, wondering if it's any good... I like how it looks!

http://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-sakai-takayuki-damask-chef-s-knife-21-cm.htm

There seem to be a couple of different versions that look similar as some site say it's 63 Rockwell and others 60. I also read some mixed reviews about it but can't really make something out of it. Any opinions?


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## Matus (Jan 6, 2015)

If I new anyone among my friends and family who would be interested (and able) to use and take care of it, I would actually consider that offer. But on the other hand, you can use the second one as a backup or for some crazy style two-handed cutting


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## Matus (Jan 6, 2015)

I would not get hooked up on the Rockwell numbers too much as long as they are around 60 or more. Different steels will be hardened to different HRC values to achieve certain properties. I find that those knives have very nice profile and Swedish carbon steel has good name too. They do not mention whether the damascus cladding is stainless or carbon - though probably carbon as the 21cm you linked seems to have a little rust or patine towards the tip  F&F looks rustic, but hard to expect wonders for this price.


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## berndd (Jan 6, 2015)

Hmm ok! I think it's a stainless knife tho... check this link:

http://www.**************.com/satadagy210.html

Might go for the 210mm then to cut the price a bit (21,7 cm so it isn't bad I think]

Any opinions on how this knife will compare to a Tojiro DP / Eden Kanso in terms of maintenance, cutting, sharpening, keeping its edge?


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## berndd (Jan 6, 2015)

Sorry Sems the link is blocked. Other source:
http://www.hocho-knife.com/sakai-ta...e-japanese-trad-style-chef-knife-gyuto-210mm/


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## berndd (Jan 11, 2015)

I've just asked the store which steel it was and they thought it was Sandvik swedish stainless steel. So it comes down to this:

Sakai Takayuki

Eden Kanso Aogami

Tojiro DP

Which one would get & keep the sharpest edge? I don't mind maintenance!


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## psfred (Jan 11, 2015)

The Aogami steel might give you a slightly sharper edge since it's really a high carbon steel and not stainless, per se, but I doubt you would notice the difference, assuming the Swedish Stainless is one of the fine grained razor steels. 

VG-10 in the Tojiro will probably be the hardest to sharpen, but it's not really difficult, just tends to hold onto a burr if you aren't careful. 

Not a huge difference between them, any will make you a very nice knife, they are all from reputable makers with a long history of quality knives.

Peter


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## chinacats (Jan 11, 2015)

The one that will get the sharpest is the one with the best geometry. Among these knives, I don't know which one that would be.

If there geometry were identical, and the person doing the heat treat/temper could get the most out of each steel then the advantage would likely go to the aogami, Swedish Stainless, then VG-10 in that order (IMO).

A beginner sharpener would learn the most with VG-10, while may enjoy the other two more. 

Cheers


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## berndd (Jan 12, 2015)

Can you suggest me something else in this price range available in Europe with a wa-handle?

I'm looking for a good all-round knife with lots of cutting power! I'm not doing huge amounts of prepwork, it's mostly single dish veggies & meat.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Jan 12, 2015)

It's a little bit over your budget, but you could save a bit more and try the Itinomonn from Maksim http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-kurouchi-210mm-wa-gyuto/ 
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/itinomonn-stainless-kasumi-210mm-wa-gyuto/


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## berndd (Jun 2, 2015)

So, 5 months later I ended up buying a Tojiro DP 240mm 

How can I tell if everything is ok with the knife? I knew I shouldn't expect perfect f&f and there is some spacing on the handle between the wood & steel but everything is pretty smooth.

On the cutting abilities: it cuts paper easily but there is some hesitation on tomato skin... is this normal? Might have to order some stones and start sharpening if it can get a lot better ;d


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