# how do I get my knives to cut like it did out of the box?



## Goorackerelite (Jul 12, 2020)

So I understand that out of box knives don't have the ultimate sharpness, but I notice that the grind of the bevel of a zero grind and it slices through hard veggies like butter. but as soon as I put an angle on the knife, no matter how low and how much I refine, strop and deburr. It never cuts hard veggies like it did out of the box, even though the edge is screaming and shaving sharp. Any ideas? shoud I just accept this as a fact of life or should I learn to do a zero grind on all my knives to have them perform the way I want.


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## Rangen (Jul 12, 2020)

For most tasks (not sushi cutting) kitchen knives benefit from a toothier edge. I know two ways to get that; probably others here know more. Option 1: stop at a lower grit, like 1000-2000, then strop. Option 2: use a medium-grit Japanese natural stone, which supplies a mix of grits. Tsushima stone and Aoto are two possible options.


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## Runner_up (Jul 12, 2020)

You might need to thin the knife behind the edge.


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## Goorackerelite (Jul 12, 2020)

should I thin the knife with every sharpening?


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## Runner_up (Jul 12, 2020)

You shouldn't need to thin every time you sharpen. There are certain situations where it might makes sense, but I wouldn't worry about it unless your knife is very thick.

What kind of knife is it?


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## Goorackerelite (Jul 12, 2020)

I have a yahiko white 2 KU. Pretty thin behind the edge. But I've had trouble with all my knifes after sharpening, so it must be that I have much to learn. I like how knives cut with the zero grind, and was wondering if there was a way to get that at home with self sharpening


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## bahamaroot (Jul 12, 2020)

That Yahiko did not have a zero grind ootb I guarantee you, most knives don't. It sounds like the problem is with your sharpening. How long have you been sharpening and what are you using?


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## ian (Jul 12, 2020)

I’d agree with @bahamaroot that your sharpening has something to do with it. However, imo it’s possible that your knife came with a zero grind since it’s a wide bevel knife. My Heiji came with one, for instance. Maybe bahama knows things about that line, though, that tell him otherwise. If you really want that kind of edge, you’ll have to learn how to sharpen the entire wide bevel. Look up some vids on sharpening wide bevel knives. You’ll probably want a microbevel, though, when you see it start to chip all the time. I do like that kind of edge myself, fwiw.

How big is your current edge bevel now, btw? 1mm or something?


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## friz (Jul 12, 2020)

One possible solution could be, maintain the original sharpening angle as out of the box and do not oversharpen. Not everytime you sharpen a knife you need to go through many grits, sometimes it only needs stropping, sometimes only needs a high grit stone. Remember, everytime you sharpen you take off material, you shouldn't sharpen the knife unless you have to. Try stropping or high grtit stone just to polish out the edge, or a 2 grit step. Taking off the least amount of material would help you to retain the original edge - if you follow the angle the knife's edge came with.


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## ian (Jul 12, 2020)

Yea, @friz makes a good point too. If your cutting experience changed dramatically after your first sharpening, either you took off way too much metal or your technique isn’t that great yet so your apex is not well constructed.


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## ma_sha1 (Jul 12, 2020)

Sound like me when I started sharpening, i dulled every sharp knife I had, lol.

Get a DMT angle guide for$20, you’d be sharpening like a pro.


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## Nemo (Jul 12, 2020)

It might help if you take us through the steps of how you are sharpening the knife.


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## Goorackerelite (Jul 12, 2020)

Hey Nemo. 

My progression is on a woodstock combo stone 1k/6k. I'm taking off some metal from the wide bevel first at the 1k grit, then sharpen at a 10 degree angle on the right side of the knife first: in sections of 4. THen I turn the stone around and polish very gently for a minute on each side. Then I move to a strop at a 13-15 degree angle 10x on each side then deburr on wood, return to strop 8x on each side then deburr, then 6x on each side, then deburr. then alternating single passes for about 10x on the strop. I've been sharpening for 2 years now


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## ian (Jul 12, 2020)

That's a lot of stropping.


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## panda (Jul 12, 2020)

youve got 2 more years to go before you even start to really improve.


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## Rangen (Jul 12, 2020)

Goorackerelite said:


> Hey Nemo.
> 
> My progression is on a woodstock combo stone 1k/6k. I'm taking off some metal from the wide bevel first at the 1k grit, then sharpen at a 10 degree angle on the right side of the knife first: in sections of 4. THen I turn the stone around and polish very gently for a minute on each side. Then I move to a strop at a 13-15 degree angle 10x on each side then deburr on wood, return to strop 8x on each side then deburr, then 6x on each side, then deburr. then alternating single passes for about 10x on the strop. I've been sharpening for 2 years now



Wow, 10 degrees is really low. Assuming the steel can take it, an edge at that angle should go through a carrot as though it's not there. But if I followed that process, I think I'd be really likely to round over the edge during the stropping.


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## Goorackerelite (Jul 13, 2020)

I do a micro convex rounding of the primary bevel so that the edge can have more strength. I don’t know maybe I’m being too ambitious?


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## M1k3 (Jul 13, 2020)

panda said:


> youve got 2 more years to go before you even start to really improve.


When I send your Heiji back, tell me how well I did and how long you think I've been at it.


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## Goorackerelite (Jul 13, 2020)

oh ok I checkout some videos on wide bevel knives and it does recommend that I move the shinogi line back just a bit I'll give that shot. Thanks Guys


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## panda (Jul 13, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> When I send your Heiji back, tell me how well I did and how long you think I've been at it.


ok, and tell me how long you think i spent on the edge i sent it to you with.


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## Knife2meatu (Jul 13, 2020)

Goorackerelite said:


> oh ok I checkout some videos on wide bevel knives and it does recommend that I move the shinogi line back just a bit I'll give that shot. Thanks Guys


The knife cuts like you want ootb, but then doesn't after you sharpen it with tons of stropping and cutting into wood... So your solution is to move the shinogi line back?

This... doesn't make sense to me.


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## Nemo (Jul 13, 2020)

Goorackerelite said:


> Hey Nemo.
> 
> My progression is on a woodstock combo stone 1k/6k. I'm taking off some metal from the wide bevel first at the 1k grit, then sharpen at a 10 degree angle on the right side of the knife first: in sections of 4. THen I turn the stone around and polish very gently for a minute on each side. Then I move to a strop at a 13-15 degree angle 10x on each side then deburr on wood, return to strop 8x on each side then deburr, then 6x on each side, then deburr. then alternating single passes for about 10x on the strop. I've been sharpening for 2 years now



How are you measuring these angles? How do you hold the knife?

What medium are you stropping on? If you are stropping at 5 degrees above your sharpening angle, you could be rounding the edge, especially if the stropping medium has some give to it (you could easily add another 10 degrees to the final result, depending on how much pressure you apply during stropping).

Stropping is not really mandatory for kitchen knives. It will give a finer edge if you know what you are doing, but it is an edge that is finer than you really need for kitchen use. And you do run the risk of rounding the edge.

If I strop, it's usually on a hard medium like balsa or a dry fine (8k) stone or rock hard felt. Or cereal box cardboard folded over the edge of a bench (thanks @Kippington for teaching me that trick). That way, I have a pretty good idea of what angle the edge is actually seeing. And it's usually to see if I can refresh an edge instead of having to sharpen again. Or sometimes just to show off to myself that I can cut flimsy paper. Which is fine, as long as you don't expect it make your knife cut food better.



Goorackerelite said:


> I do a micro convex rounding of the primary bevel so that the edge can have more strength. I don’t know maybe I’m being too ambitious?


Yeah, I do wonder whether instead of producing a convex bevel, you are producing a rounded edge.


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## M1k3 (Jul 13, 2020)

panda said:


> ok, and tell me how long you think i spent on the edge i sent it to you with.


3.26 minutes?


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## Goorackerelite (Jul 13, 2020)

Nemo said:


> How are you measuring these angles? How do you hold the knife?


Thank you for your fine questions, I feel that you're actually giving me useful information to work with. I hold it real steady with the fingers as close to the cutting edge as possible with minimal and superficial contact with the stone.

[/QUOTE]
What medium are you stropping on? If you are stropping at 5 degrees above your sharpening angle, you could be rounding the edge, especially if the stropping medium has some give to it (you could easily add another 10 degrees to the final result, depending on how much pressure you apply during stropping).
[/QUOTE]
I'm stropping on a leather strop that I've had for a few years that I use on my straight edge. The rounding of the edge might be something that I can look into. I use minimal pressure: just the weight of the knife without pushing into the cutting edge.
[/QUOTE]
Stropping is not really mandatory for kitchen knives. It will give a finer edge if you know what you are doing, but it is an edge that is finer thanyou really need for kitchen use. And you do run the risk of rounding the edge.
[/QUOTE]
Ok I will most definitely take this into consideration in my future attempts.
[/QUOTE]
If I strop, it's usually on a hard medium like balsa or a dry fine (8k) stone or rock hard felt. Or cereal box cardboard folded over the edge of a bench. And it's usually to see if I can refresh an edge instead of having to sharpen again. Or sometimes just to show off to myself that I can cut flimsy paper. Which is fine, as long as you don't expect it make your knife cut food better.

hmm stroping on a dry fine stone is a new concept for me


Yeah, I do wonder whether instead of producing a convex bevel, you are producing a rounded edge.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you Again Nemo!! your questions and feedback is legendary!


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## panda (Jul 13, 2020)

60 seconds on gesh 4k  i figured youd want to do a full progression to check out the steel.


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## M1k3 (Jul 13, 2020)

panda said:


> 60 seconds on gesh 4k  i figured youd want to do a full progression to check out the steel.


Seems about right  
Yeah, 500>4k done.


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## Nemo (Jul 13, 2020)

It's also worth re-looking at some sharpening videos whenever you are struggling. And even if you aren't.

I like the ones made by @JBroida (the JKI sharpening series) and @Sailor (the knifeplanet.net sharpening school)


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## Nemo (Jul 13, 2020)

Goorackerelite said:


> Thank you for your fine questions, I feel that you're actually giving me useful information to work with. I hold it real steady with the fingers as close to the cutting edge as possible with minimal and superficial contact with the stone.
> 
> I'm stropping on a leather strop that I've had for a few years that I use on my straight edge. The rounding of the edge might be something that I can look into. I use minimal pressure: just the weight of the knife without pushing into the cutting edge.
> 
> ...




I assume by "Straight edge", you mean a straight razor? I've never sharpened a razor but my understanding is that it's quite different to kitchen knife sharpening both in terms of goals and techniques.

Thanks for your kind words but I'll point out that you'll get good advice from many in the forums. Many of them with much more knowledge and experience than I.

It might be worthwhile looking at the Knifeplanet.net video on pressure control. It might be the 3rd lesson? This is a really useful way of abrading the burr.

Edited to add: if you want to strengthen the edge, you may want to try a microbevel instead of micro-convexing the edge. Check the JKI micro-bevel video. Or you could try @Kippington 's deburring method which essentially uses a 45 degree microbevel to cut off the burr (search the forums for "Kippington deburring video").


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## kayman67 (Jul 13, 2020)

Goorackerelite said:


> Hey Nemo.
> 
> My progression is on a woodstock combo stone 1k/6k. I'm taking off some metal from the wide bevel first at the 1k grit, then sharpen at a 10 degree angle on the right side of the knife first: in sections of 4. THen I turn the stone around and polish very gently for a minute on each side. Then I move to a strop at a 13-15 degree angle 10x on each side then deburr on wood, return to strop 8x on each side then deburr, then 6x on each side, then deburr. then alternating single passes for about 10x on the strop. I've been sharpening for 2 years now



Is there a tutorial somewhere teaching you this? I'm really curious as I've seen similar approach several times and makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. 

10° is as zero as anyone would ever need. Most knives or jobs would struggle keeping such an edge. 

You also make a convex somewhere. Are you making, without understanding what's going on, an axe grind? Or maybe multiple grinds. 

You do so many things are have the potential for wrong results, it's very hard to tell what a single one might be. I don't even agree with high pass stropping, unless you go for a microbevel or have an ultra hard surface with stable abrasives and perfect pressure control. I think ruined stropping for a lot of people. And if you do go for a microbevel, high pass is not the only thing required and so on and so forth. It gets more complicated than it should ever be. 

How are these edges performing otherwise? Here, all those stupid tests can be useful. Would the knife pass easily and on its own while cutting paper? At that angle, should be a problem holding it not to do so. Would it take mid hair cuts? It definitely should. Would it simply be laughing at tomato skin as hardly being a challenge? Because it should cut a tomato without even cutting the bottom to keep it in place. Does it wedge? I imagine you have tried different angles. Did you get any improvement?


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## Benuser (Jul 13, 2020)

Goorackerelite said:


> So I understand that out of box knives don't have the ultimate sharpness, but I notice that the grind of the bevel of a zero grind and it slices through hard veggies like butter. but as soon as I put an angle on the knife, no matter how low and how much I refine, strop and deburr. It never cuts hard veggies like it did out of the box, even though the edge is screaming and shaving sharp. Any ideas? shoud I just accept this as a fact of life or should I learn to do a zero grind on all my knives to have them perform the way I want.


In addition only to the excellent advices you've got:
I don't know the knife's factory edge, but my guess is you might have overlooked a microbevel. Use a marker and a loupe (8-10x) to make sure you have reached the very edge with your coarsest stone. There shouldn't be any ink left. Believe me, with the naked eye the bevel may look perfectly clean, but the loupe may show you've been accumulating debris on top of the old edge, and the bevels don't really meet. Marker and loupe are a safer test than only a burr as the last may start to form before the very edge has been reached, especially when some pressure got involved.


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## adam92 (Aug 27, 2020)

I haved same problem as you, my Takamura OOTB cut through carrot like butter, after using around 3 years, even though i thinning regularly, is still doesn't cut like OOTB edge.

My sharpening angle 10-15 degree, micro bebel on high grit.

And then i see Takamura video sharpening video, nearly zero grind, he said his knife angle suppose can't fit 1 penny, now cutting better but still not satisfy yet, maybe i thinning not enough.


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## dafox (Aug 27, 2020)

adam92 said:


> I haved same problem as you, my Takamura OOTB cut through carrot like butter, after using around 3 years, even though i thinning regularly, is still doesn't cut like OOTB edge.
> 
> My sharpening angle 10-15 degree, micro bebel on high grit.
> 
> And then i see Takamura video sharpening video, nearly zero grind, he said his knife angle suppose can't fit 1 penny, now cutting better but still not satisfy yet, maybe i thinning not enough.


Can you link that video?


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## adam92 (Aug 27, 2020)

dafox said:


> Can you link that video?


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## M1k3 (Aug 27, 2020)

Watch the chip repair one.


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## JDC (Aug 27, 2020)

This video is one of the most illuminating tutorials for me:



Raise the angle and deburr properly, you can get tons of sharpness even out of a brick.


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## Barclid (Aug 27, 2020)

adam92 said:


> I haved same problem as you, my Takamura OOTB cut through carrot like butter, after using around 3 years, even though i thinning regularly, is still doesn't cut like OOTB edge.
> 
> My sharpening angle 10-15 degree, micro bebel on high grit.
> 
> And then i see Takamura video sharpening video, nearly zero grind, he said his knife angle suppose can't fit 1 penny, now cutting better but still not satisfy yet, maybe i thinning not enough.



Pretty much everyone sharpens their Takamura at a higher angle than Takamura recommends. It's going to take you a while to get the hang of it. Especially if you listen to people on KKF telling you that they all need a micro (macro) bevel.


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## kayman67 (Aug 27, 2020)

Maybe here has more to do with most people's fear of scratches.


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## Barclid (Aug 27, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> Maybe here has more to do with most people's fear of scratches.


God forbid you use your knife and get some scratches on it.


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## kayman67 (Aug 27, 2020)

Tell me about it. I've seen quite a few tragedies


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## M1k3 (Aug 27, 2020)

Barclid said:


> God forbid you use your knife and get some scratches on it.


Just call it 'random Damascus', not scratches. Added value instead of reduced value.


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## Midsummer (Aug 27, 2020)

Barclid said:


> God forbid you use your knife and get some scratches on it.



Use is overrated.


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## Ruso (Aug 27, 2020)

You might not be blending your secondary and primary bevels. This creates a sharp transition between two bevels and results in perceived resistance while cutting the hard vegetables.


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## adam92 (Aug 28, 2020)

I'll upload some picture of my takamura tonight, let me know what you guys think about my thinning.


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## adam92 (Aug 28, 2020)




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## adam92 (Aug 28, 2020)

My left side shoulder little more clearly than right side, i didn't do major thinning recently, but when cutting carrot, it didn't wedge, should i thinning more?

Or am doing fine? let me know if i do something wrong. Thanks.


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## juice (Aug 28, 2020)

No point wearing a camo jacket if you're going to carry a bright orange bag, ya know? It sends mixed messages about visibility.


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## JDC (Aug 28, 2020)

How does it feel on the board now? From the pics I think it still won't perform as out of the box.


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## adam92 (Aug 28, 2020)

JDC said:


> How does it feel on the board now? From the pics I think it still won't perform as out of the box.


Didn't perform same as OOTB, but much more better than previously when i sharpen higher angle, i might thinning more to see how's going, as this knife has been using 3 years, the knife is m uch shorter now, also thicker, i should thinning more often to maintain geometry .


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## M1k3 (Aug 28, 2020)

Thin it until it feels like it's "there". Then thin it a little more.


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## adam92 (Aug 28, 2020)

After major thinning, cutting carrot even better now.
I'm quite satisfy the performance now, let me know if i do something wrong.


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## dafox (Aug 28, 2020)

adam92 said:


> After major thinning, cutting carrot even better now.
> I'm quite satisfy the performance now, let me know if i do something wrong.
> View attachment 92182
> View attachment 92183
> ...


What stones did you use for thinning?


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## adam92 (Aug 28, 2020)

dafox said:


> What stones did you use for thinning?


I use shapton glass.
220.500.1&4k stone.


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## Goorackerelite (Aug 29, 2020)

I’m happy with the performance now but after some thinning noticed that food release isn’t as good. Is there a way to polish the bevel so that food release is better or oil it? So much to learn, I live this journey


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## Kawa (Aug 29, 2020)

I think the higher the polish, the worse your food release will be. You have much bigger contact patch, so food has way more grip on your knife.
On microscopic level, scratches work like the profile in cartyres. The much smaller contact patches due to the high and low spots (scratches) cut through the water from the food easier. With a high polished knife, the thin waterfilm between the food and the knife creates a sticky feeling (you can skid the food on the knife, but it wont release unless you help with peeling a little bit off, then the distance from the food to the knife gets to big for water to keep it 'glued together'). I guess this is due to adhesion effect, but i could be wrong here.


Thats why a hammered pattern is often advertised as 'better for food release'


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## JDC (Aug 29, 2020)

It would help if you make a more defined shoulder, but a S-grind would be much better, don't know how to do that on a stone though.


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## JDC (Aug 29, 2020)

A thin S-grind is a dream to use, like this:


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## ian (Aug 29, 2020)

Goorackerelite said:


> I’m happy with the performance now but after some thinning noticed that food release isn’t as good. Is there a way to polish the bevel so that food release is better or oil it? So much to learn, I live this journey



I would assume that during your thinning you transformed what used to be slightly convex geometry into flat geometry, degrading the food release. If you just lay the entire bevel down flat and sharpen away until it’s a zero grind, you’ll get it thin behind the edge but the food release will be worse on the wide bevel. Hamaguri sharpening is better.

Finish matters some, geometry matters more.


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## Goorackerelite (Aug 30, 2020)

ian said:


> I would assume that during your thinning you transformed what used to be slightly convex geometry into flat geometry, degrading the food release. If you just lay the entire bevel down flat and sharpen away until it’s a zero grind, you’ll get it thin behind the edge but the food release will be worse on the wide bevel. Hamaguri sharpening is better.
> 
> Finish matters some, geometry matters more.



How do I do the Convex grind? Anyone have a video link or resource?


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## Goorackerelite (Aug 30, 2020)

how do I do the hamaguri grind?


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## D J (Aug 30, 2020)

I'm watching this post with interest. I've been planning to thin my tf denka petty after owning it for around 8 years. It's been sharpened many times but I have only recently even heard about blade thinning


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## adam92 (Aug 30, 2020)

D J said:


> I'm watching this post with interest. I've been planning to thin my tf denka petty after owning it for around 8 years. It's been sharpened many times but I have only recently even heard about blade thinning


Can you take a photo of your choil shot? Wondering how tick your knife will be .


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## D J (Aug 30, 2020)

Hi I'm not sure what a choil shot is but hopefully this is what it means


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## Benuser (Aug 30, 2020)




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## ian (Aug 30, 2020)

Goorackerelite said:


> How do I do the Convex grind? Anyone have a video link or resource?



You usually start by thinning up toward the top of the bevel (the shinogi line), then thin around the edge, then blend the two bevels a bit. You could look at the part of this video that’s about the side of the knife with the bevel:



Also, from JKI:

“The first type of sharpening is hamaguri sharpening. In doing this, the blade road is sharpened in 2 parts and then blended together. The first sharpening is from the shinogi line down about 1/2 way or 2/3 the way down the blade road. In this first sharpening, the shinogi line should be moved up the same amount of height you intend to remove from the edge of the knife. The second sharpening is of the edge and the area just behind the edge. During this sharpening, you remove metal from the edge and form a burr. The two angles of these first and second sharpening are almost the same, so the difference comes mainly from finger placement and pressure, rather than lifting up the edge. These two bevels are then blended together to create a hamaguri edge. The curvature should be very subtle.”

Edit: if your wide bevel is currently flat, you should start the hamaguri sharpening at the edge rather than at the shinogi line if you don't want to dramatically raise the shinogi line, which you probably don't.


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## Kippington (Aug 31, 2020)

Not gonna lie, if you decide to do it by hand, that's gonna need _loads _of work before you're going to be happy with it...

Edit: Oh wait that's a petty, it's not as bad as I thought.


D J said:


> Hi I'm not sure what a choil shot is but hopefully this is what it meansView attachment 92507


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## D J (Aug 31, 2020)

The denka was my first high carbon knife. I had no sharpening skills when I bought him, my sharpening back then was a dmt angle guide, a full set of dmt plates (the heavy steel plates) I also had spyderco fine and ultra fine and a small black ark 2×8inch from Dan's. Also I had the tormek back then as well. I'm so embarrassed to say how badly I treated this knife trying to make it sharp like it was when I bought it. I am sure that from then to now the height of the blade is at least 3mm lower than what it was. This knife was a turning point for my knife journey. And began my sharpening journey. After 8 years of practising which with work was usually only weekends, it's been a slow journey. My last annual leave (holidays) we couldn't travel as everyone knows. This is when I decided to really put a lot of time into practising. And finally I think I have surpassed the learner stage ...we were speaking about thinning. Sorry to go off topic. I tried the other day starting with #240 whetstone. I noticed that there's low spots along the edge of the blade. I started thinking about how nothing ever sticks to the sides of this knife and could these low spots have something to do with this. So I've put the project on hold until I get some advice. I'll post what I've done so far


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