# Profile Criticism



## Don Nguyen (Mar 21, 2012)

I spent a good amount of time these past few months studying profiles. I tried to make it as sleek as possible while maintaining good knuckle clearance.

The oxidation at the tip is from when I held it up to the piece I was forging. From the heel it has about 10cm (4") of _almost_ dead flat edge.















Blade length is 240mm
Overall height at heel is 60mm
Knuckle clearance at heel is 45mm
Handle length 140mm (5.5")

Too flat?


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## WildBoar (Mar 21, 2012)

Looks very similar to the profile of my Fowler, which is a bit flatter then the norm around here. It does lead to having to adjust technique a little bit, although it only takes a few seconds to mentally make the adjustment. You may want to consider adding a little more curve, and providing a relatively flat area near the tip for mincing.


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## Eamon Burke (Mar 21, 2012)

Less flat, plz.


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## Andrew H (Mar 21, 2012)

I'd add more curve. The tip area looks a little too 'pointy' also.


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## Don Nguyen (Mar 21, 2012)

Hmm, I guess it's _too_ flat then. 

What makes the tip too pointy? If I made the edge have a little more curve, would that help?

ALSO, the knuckle clearance is actually 40mm. I measured incorrectly earlier. However, it still seems clunky and fat. If I took off 10mm from the heel, would that be too drastic and compromise performance too much? If I made the knuckle clearance 30mm, I'd still have just enough room for a hammer grip.


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## Andrew H (Mar 21, 2012)

Don Nguyen said:


> Hmm, I guess it's _too_ flat then.
> 
> What makes the tip too pointy? If I made the edge have a little more curve, would that help?
> 
> ALSO, the knuckle clearance is actually 40mm. I measured incorrectly earlier. However, it still seems clunky and fat. If I took off 10mm from the heel, would that be too drastic and compromise performance too much? If I made the knuckle clearance 30mm, I'd still have just enough room for a hammer grip.



For me the spines curves down too quickly. That mainly has to do with a very low tip. 30mm is definitely in suji territory.


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## Marko Tsourkan (Mar 21, 2012)

Too flat.


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## WildBoar (Mar 21, 2012)

Is this a 240? If so, blade height at heel is typically 50 mm +/- 2 mm. Not that it can't be less, but as stated it becomes more like a suji.

What is this 'hammer grip' of which you speak?!? :scared4: Pinch grip is more typical.


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## jmforge (Mar 21, 2012)

For my first serious attempt, I just traced the profile of my Hattori FH and modified it for my own evil purposes. I didn't see the sense in trying to reinvent the wheel my first time out.


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## JohnnyChance (Mar 21, 2012)

He said knuckle clearance was 40mm, not that the heel height is 40mm. Heel height in the first post says 60mm, which is tall. Like was stated, 50mm is a typical ballpark for heel height on a gyuto. So you should still have plenty of knuckle clearance. 

I don't necessarily feel it is too flat or too pointy. How does it feel on the board?


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## Don Nguyen (Mar 21, 2012)

WildBoar said:


> Is this a 240? If so, blade height at heel is typically 50 mm +/- 2 mm. Not that it can't be less, but as stated it becomes more like a suji.
> 
> What is this 'hammer grip' of which you speak?!? :scared4: Pinch grip is more typical.



You grip it like a hammer and smack things!

I just figured that I should account for all sorts of uses, including ones that we may not favor so much 


******* said:


> For my first serious attempt, I just traced the profile of my Hattori FH and modified it for my own evil purposes. I didn't see the sense in trying to reinvent the wheel my first time out.



Well, I would do that too, but I don't have such a thing as a nice knife yet 

All I have are some entry level Henckels and other various cheap knives, including Farberware. I haven't even touched a real Japanese knife yet, so I'm basing all of this design on what I read and see.



JohnnyChance said:


> He said knuckle clearance was 40mm, not that the heel height is 40mm. Heel height in the first post says 60mm, which is tall. Like was stated, 50mm is a typical ballpark for heel height on a gyuto. So you should still have plenty of knuckle clearance.
> 
> I don't necessarily feel it is too flat or too pointy. How does it feel on the board?



Since I'm not so experienced with any real cooking or any high-performing knife, it feels good to me 



Also, yes, overall height at the heel is currently at 60mm, so if I chop some off at the edge, it'll be within the norm and be at 50mm. For some reason I got confused when reading the forums and thought that the range "45mm-55mm" should be knuckle clearance, rather than overall height.


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## WildBoar (Mar 21, 2012)

Don, do not be shy about asking if someone is willing to send you a knife to study, measure, trace, etc. Even better, see if you can borrow 5-6 different ones (of a similar length) for comparison. There are a few KKF members in your area, so you may be able to look over a collection or two, and not even need to mess with UPS, USPS, etc.


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## jmforge (Mar 21, 2012)

When I first came on board, a number of guys said that the standard relatively inexpensive Sabatier knives have a pretty good profile to work from.


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## RobinW (Mar 21, 2012)

i like it, but i favour flattish knives. My concern is mainly that i do not like the tall end of the tang. Seems to be unneccesary and takes away some from the nimbleness that the blade projects.


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## Eamon Burke (Mar 21, 2012)

******* said:


> When I first came on board, a number of guys said that the standard relatively inexpensive Sabatier knives have a pretty good profile to work from.



The vintage ones. Excellent profiles.


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## jmforge (Mar 21, 2012)

Eamon, from what I have seen, the Elephant brand in carbon seems to be closer in shape to the originals. The not as common 9 inch chef in stainless from the brand that you see a lot on the web here in the US also looks more like the older ones to my eye than the 8 or 10 inches from the same firm. Their 8 incher looks a tad too "Germanic" IMO


BurkeCutlery said:


> The vintage ones. Excellent profiles.


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## RRLOVER (Mar 21, 2012)

When I am looking at the edge and comparing it to the veneer wood seam on the table it does not seem all that flat to me.Sometimes getting to many opinions can do more harm then good,make a knife you like and have fun at it.


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## VoodooMajik (Mar 21, 2012)

I actually like the flatness. Personally I'd raise that tip up a notch, just a small, small amount of belly rocking. I can see myself using whats there with a slight mod pretty regularly. I also am no expert.

Knuckle clearance be damned  "Let Rod try! He's got small girly hands". Kidding..


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## ThEoRy (Mar 21, 2012)

What you want is for it to look flat to the eye, but actually has a slight curve to it. This makes for a smoother cutting action without it feeling like it's slamming into the board with a sudden halt. Just one user's opinion but I feel pretty strongly about it. 

I want the knife to be an extension of my thoughts. A seamless transition from thought to action. I like my mind to be the tool, rhythmically guiding the steel. Any interruption in that thought process is a mental roadblock to me. Over time frustration builds until I find the knife is unusable.

Basically, I don't want to think about the knife. It should disappear into my hand and become one with my thoughts. I like the feeling of zen I can achieve while working. A properly ground knife can make that much easier to attain.


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## Don Nguyen (Mar 21, 2012)

ThEoRy said:


> What you want is for it to look flat to the eye, but actually has a slight curve to it. This makes for a smoother cutting action without it feeling like it's slamming into the board with a sudden halt. Just one user's opinion but I feel pretty strongly about it.
> 
> I want the knife to be an extension of my thoughts. A seamless transition from thought to action. I like my mind to be the tool, rhythmically guiding the steel. Any interruption in that thought process is a mental roadblock to me. Over time frustration builds until I find the knife is unusable.
> 
> Basically, I don't want to think about the knife. It should disappear into my hand and become one with my thoughts. I like the feeling of zen I can achieve while working. A properly ground knife can make that much easier to attain.



I get the idea, but I don't quite get it.

To make the knife disappear, what elements should it have? How can I modify this profile to make it so it fits your description (seem straight but have a slight curve).

I'm going to raise the tip up a smidgen for some belly and chop off 10mm from the bottom for now, and see how that works.


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## ThEoRy (Mar 22, 2012)

It should be smooth and non jarring upon contact with the board. Anything that makes me realize the knife is there and working against me is counter intuitive. Instead of having 4" of dead flatness, bring the heel up like 1 or 2mm (I don't know the exact measurement it should be over that distance) over that 4 inches creating a minute curve. Think of looking at the horizon. It looks flat, but you know it isn't. Don't go less then 50mm height at the heel. That's about right for me anyway. I like a convex grind on the sides too for food release as it helps with the "thoughtlessness". As far as the tip goes, do what you like as long as it doesn't "bird beak" back down.

Hard to explain this stuff in words sometimes because they are the ideas and feelings of a user, albeit an experienced one, and not a maker. I hope I can explain myself clearly enough to be helpful.


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## Don Nguyen (Mar 24, 2012)

WildBoar said:


> Don, do not be shy about asking if someone is willing to send you a knife to study, measure, trace, etc. Even better, see if you can borrow 5-6 different ones (of a similar length) for comparison. There are a few KKF members in your area, so you may be able to look over a collection or two, and not even need to mess with UPS, USPS, etc.



I've been hesitant to try something like this, because I'm too scared to handle other peoples valuable possessions.

*However, I really would like to handle some profiles in person, and if anybody would be willing to trace out their favored profiles on various materials and send to me, I would be infinitely grateful for your time.*


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## Don Nguyen (Mar 24, 2012)

Even a scan of your knife will help me greatly


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## Don Nguyen (Mar 28, 2012)

Bottom one is the new profile.


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## Eamon Burke (Mar 28, 2012)

I like it Don


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## El Pescador (Mar 28, 2012)

+1


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## Andrew H (Mar 28, 2012)

Very nice. What did you end up basing it on?


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## Don Nguyen (Mar 28, 2012)

Thanks guys.

I wasn't really using any one single knife for reference. I just sat down for a few hours and played around with the angles and curves. If I had to say, Masamoto was probably the biggest influence.


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