# Passing the hanging hair test off a coarse stone (120)



## Luftmensch (Apr 18, 2021)

@captaincaed's challenge (Just Another Dam Project - Pass HHT on your kitchen knife) encouraged me to set my own goal of passing HHT off lower and lower grit stones.

The point was never really about passing HHT. It was motivation to improve technique and learn more about low grit stones. I must say, @captaincaed's challenge taught me a lot about the flexibility of low-grit stones. I had some free time this weekend and decided to chase my goal - HHT off a Shapton Pro 120.

Shigefusa fans look away. I have used this 180mm Santoku in the kitchen pretty regularly for three years. It is not a collectors piece. Several months in, I decided to thin it out and raise the bevel. Yes I know...

To pass HHT this is what I did:

Remove previous bevel using high pressure. Constantly refresh the surface of the Shapton Pro 120 to keep it cutting. 
Once the edge is essentially reset to a zero bevel, over work the stone surface so that it glazes.
Back off the pressure and 'polish' the bevel a little
Raise the angle and put on a microbevel using light pressure
No stropping







A close up of the edge:






You can see the microbevel right at the edge.


All in all HHT is rather pointless. The excuse/motivation to improve my sharpening and understanding of low-grit stones was a valuable and worthwhile experience!


----------



## captaincaed (Apr 18, 2021)

Hot dang! Look at that!


----------



## stringer (Apr 18, 2021)

Really nice work. This would be a difficult task to accomplish with a good straight razor. Freehand with a knife and so little burr is very impressive.


----------



## branwell (Apr 18, 2021)

That's awesome. Fun fun fun.


----------



## cotedupy (Apr 18, 2021)

Well that's quite something! To think I've been quite pleased with myself the handful of times I've managed it off a fine slate / suita . And as you say - you now know that stone back to front and inside out.

The very first stone I got was a coarse Norton combi, and the sheer amount I've used it / know it means that I can get stuff really very sharp (not this level, but pretty good).


----------



## captaincaed (Apr 18, 2021)

I'm really curious to see how it holds up to some kitchen duty. Since the edge is both narrow and coarse, it'll be interesting to see how much life you can squeeze out of it. 

I think this is also a testament to Shigefusa steel. I think a sub-par heat treat wouldn't be up to the job.


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 18, 2021)

Really good job!!!!


----------



## captaincaed (Apr 18, 2021)

Hey @Luftmensch are you on the KMS German forum as well?


----------



## KingShapton (Apr 18, 2021)

"In the right hands a coarse stone can produce an edge that is sharper than necessary for use in the kitchen." 

Not only excellently formulated by @Luftmensch in another thread, but also proven here


----------



## Luftmensch (Apr 18, 2021)

Thanks everyone!




stringer said:


> Really nice work. This would be a difficult task to accomplish with a good straight razor. Freehand with a knife and so little burr is very impressive.



 Imagine the shaving rash 

I guess there is a 'cheat' in there. By resetting the edge to zero, I didnt have to do any angle control until the microbevel. I did make several attempts before getting there . I tried for a less is more approach - light pressure. While I didnt strop on leather (etc), the microbevel on was pretty close to stropping on the stone (also edge trailing).




cotedupy said:


> The very first stone I got was a coarse Norton combi, and the sheer amount I've used it / know it means that I can get stuff really very sharp (not this level, but pretty good).



Yeah! It is nice getting to know a stone. That 'last little' bit doesnt add much practical utility. Good enough is good enough. With a thin edge and hard steel... getting to push cut sharp at low grit makes for a pretty serviceable edge. I guess this goes to @captaincaed's observation:



captaincaed said:


> I think this is also a testament to Shigefusa steel. I think a sub-par heat treat wouldn't be up to the job.



I agree! They do heat treat on the hard side. The core steel skates across the 120 when it glazes up. It is rather unpleasant! It would take an enormous amount of finesse to do it on softer steels - I wouldnt have the patience!

With the harder steel I think you can also avoid creating large burrs if you dont use a large amount of pressure. 




captaincaed said:


> I'm really curious to see how it holds up to some kitchen duty. Since the edge is both narrow and coarse



Poor thing... I am starting to repolish the bevels. I just did one side up to 3000. I dont mind the knife being rugged but I felt bad looking at the 120 scratch pattern. The jigane has nice clouds in it. I have spent the better part of three years trying to exaggerate them but havent figured out a successful method. I figure they are doomed to subtle beauty. 



captaincaed said:


> Hey @Luftmensch are you on the KMS German forum as well?



No. KKF is actually pretty much the only forum I actively participate in! Over the years I have lurked in a couple.




KingShapton said:


> "In the right hands a coarse stone can produce an edge that is sharper than necessary for use in the kitchen."
> 
> Not only excellently formulated by @Luftmensch in another thread, but also proven here





Tee-hee. Well. I owe @captaincaed a debt of gratitude for giving me cause to explore the low grits more. Creating these edges is not sensible... so I had never thought to try. The experience has given me a new perspective though!


----------



## captaincaed (Apr 18, 2021)

Exactly! It's not a forever edge, but it's a learning experience. Thanks for picking up the torch


----------



## Mr.Wizard (Apr 18, 2021)

Uh... where did that strand of hair come from?


----------



## inferno (Apr 18, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> @captaincaed's challenge (Just Another Dam Project - Pass HHT on your kitchen knife) encouraged me to set my own goal of passing HHT off lower and lower grit stones.
> 
> The point was never really about passing HHT. It was motivation to improve technique and learn more about low grit stones. I must say, @captaincaed's challenge taught me a lot about the flexibility of low-grit stones. I had some free time this weekend and decided to chase my goal - HHT off a Shapton Pro 120.
> 
> ...



does it feel sharp when cutting things? how does it feel on paper for instance?


----------



## Kawa (Apr 18, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> Uh... where did that strand of hair come from?



Looks like from my chest


----------



## whirlwynds (Apr 18, 2021)

Very cool. It's good to make and finally see the distinction. That apex keeness and width is distinct from scratch pattern and coarseness.


----------



## Luftmensch (Apr 18, 2021)

Mr.Wizard said:


> Uh... where did that strand of hair come from?





Kawa said:


> Looks like from my chest





From.... 

Hehe... no. My beard. I dont really have any success doing HHT with my head hair. It is quite fine. My beard hair must be 2-3x thicker. That does make it easier...

I did maybe 10 takes to get the hair to pop nicely into the focal plane. Quite a few popped into the blurred foreground... or even backwards behind the knife. Not very cinematic! Suffice to say... my chin was stinging a bit after


----------



## Luftmensch (Apr 18, 2021)

inferno said:


> does it feel sharp when cutting things? how does it feel on paper for instance?



I had fun shredding some butchers paper. Definitely not a refined edge... Quite toothy. Over working the stone and then using light pressure allows it to act more like a nasty mid grit. Even so... the 120 grit is probably around 100-150μm?? Rough for a polish but still relatively small scale!

Cutting veggies...? Pretty similar really. I guess a lot of the sensation/feedback is really more a function of the geometry behind the edge.


----------



## waxy (Apr 18, 2021)

Shig looks in great shape considering it's over 3 years.


----------



## Luftmensch (Apr 19, 2021)

waxy said:


> Shig looks in great shape considering it's over 3 years.



Argh! You're too kind. 

She hasn't been abused... but neither has she been treated with kid gloves. I _do_ feel like know I have let my guard down several times with the kurouchi. An unsuccessful experiment with etching  (check out those ugly lines near the spine )... One bad stroke on a low grit stone... etc...

And the sad thing is... it is a great kurouchi. I make it look less durable than it is! Actually since messing this kuro up prematurely, I have experimented a little by putting tung oil on others to help protect them.


----------



## waxy (Apr 19, 2021)

Have you experienced any chipping issues? I seen mentions of it bring very brittle.
I've only used mine a few times and tend to have a habit of cleaning it off as I go.
They tend to be easier for me to sharpen than my Kitaeji's though.


----------



## Bigbbaillie (Apr 19, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> She hasn't been abused... but neither has she been treated with kid gloves. I _do_ feel like know I have let my guard down several times with the kurouchi. An unsuccessful experiment with etching  (check out those ugly lines near the spine )... One bad stroke on a low grit stone... etc...
> 
> And the sad thing is... it is a great kurouchi. I make it look less durable than it is! Actually since messing this kuro up prematurely, I have experimented a little by putting tung oil on others to help protect them.


Fresh edge to edge ku is overrated anyway. Looks best a little beat up to my eyes at least.


----------



## waxy (Apr 20, 2021)

I agree, they do look much better once broken in, the fresh look doesn't appeal to me unless you're a collector.


----------



## jwthaparc (Apr 22, 2021)

Those sp 120s can actually finish fairly high grit when they are thoroughly glazed. I use my old one that wore too thin as fingerstones, and rust erasers.


----------



## kayman67 (Apr 22, 2021)

True, but you can do the same with anything. It's just a pressure thing. If it's glazed enough, would be a bit easier to adjust it.


----------



## Luftmensch (May 7, 2021)

waxy said:


> Have you experienced any chipping issues? I seen mentions of it bring very brittle.
> I've only used mine a few times and tend to have a habit of cleaning it off as I go.
> They tend to be easier for me to sharpen than my Kitaeji's though.



Hey @waxy. I wanted to wait a couple of weeks use before I answered. Short answer: no. 

Shigefusa is definitely on the 'harder' side of treatments - so it ought to be chippier than a softer or better balanced treatment. I _did_ thin the santoku out - it is now a wide(r) bevel but it is not a laser. Given the adjustment I was careful during use but not overly cautious. Over the past two weeks it has been just fine. On Tuesday I made a fish curry with squash using the santoku. Squash was probably its biggest challenge - it was fine.

The slightly longer answer is: it depends. It has been fine in a home kitchen where taking the time to be careful is an option. While I havent had any chipping in the past two weeks, putting a little bit of torque on the edge can result in that unhealthy crunchy, 'pinging' noise. I dont have faith that is an indication of durability. In a commercial kitchen I probably would probably choose to keep more meat behind the edge.


----------



## jwthaparc (May 7, 2021)

Time for the real challenge. A hanging hair test done off of an atoma 140. No surface conditioning tricks will work with that.


----------



## kayman67 (May 7, 2021)

Should work even easier. Haven't tried that exactly, but I did try the shaving routine and worked a lot easier than anticipated.


----------



## jwthaparc (May 7, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Should work even easier. Haven't tried that exactly, but I did try the shaving routine and worked a lot easier than anticipated.


Shaving on an atoma 140 edge? That must have been rough.


----------



## kayman67 (May 7, 2021)

Well, it really depends on the reference point, I guess. Had worse, had better.


----------



## waxy (May 7, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Hey @waxy. I wanted to wait a couple of weeks use before I answered. Short answer: no.
> 
> Shigefusa is definitely on the 'harder' side of treatments - so it ought to be chippier than a softer or better balanced treatment. I _did_ thin the santoku out - it is now a wide(r) bevel but it is not a laser. Given the adjustment I was careful during use but not overly cautious. Over the past two weeks it has been just fine. On Tuesday I made a fish curry with squash using the santoku. Squash was probably its biggest challenge - it was fine.
> 
> The slightly longer answer is: it depends. It has been fine in a home kitchen where taking the time to be careful is an option. While I havent had any chipping in the past two weeks, putting a little bit of torque on the edge can result in that unhealthy crunchy, 'pinging' noise. I dont have faith that is an indication of durability. In a commercial kitchen I probably would probably choose to keep more meat behind the edge.



Appreciate the detailed response, I only use mine for light load vegetables such as cucumbers, carrots, onions and sorts.
Sometimes I sneak in a few slices of proteins to cut it  

In fact, I do this with my Shig deba as well, these are just small tasks.
I always clean as I go, the cutting board I use is an end grain Hinoki and sometimes the solid live edge Hinoki.
These cutting boards remove the vibration out of the impact compared to domestic wood and bamboo.

I may have asked you this and missed it, but what kind of cutting boards are you using?


----------



## jwthaparc (May 7, 2021)

waxy said:


> Appreciate the detailed response, I only use mine for light load vegetables such as cucumbers, carrots, onions and sorts.
> Sometimes I sneak in a few slices of proteins to cut it
> 
> In fact, I do this with my Shig deba as well, these are just small tasks.
> ...


I may be out of line saying this, but I just don't get buying a super expensive knife literally just to use for certain things like this. Dont get me wrong I'm not saying to chop bones with a j-knife or anything. Just that I'm sure you could get away with using it like well... a tool. Because that's what it is.


----------



## jwthaparc (May 8, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> Well, it really depends on the reference point, I guess. Had worse, had better.


What was the worse shave?


----------



## inferno (May 8, 2021)

now i want to see someone passing the HHT straight off a 36 grit belt!


----------



## RDalman (May 8, 2021)

inferno said:


> now i want to see someone passing the HHT straight off a 36 grit belt!


I did 60 but deburred on felt wheel with some white wax on, in the old thread.


----------



## inferno (May 8, 2021)

RDalman said:


> I did 60 but deburred on felt wheel with some white wax on, in the old thread.



hmm "deburring" sounds a lot like "cheating" to me  

-------------

i'm gonna try this with the dmt 325. and according to scienceofsharp this will work.


----------



## RDalman (May 8, 2021)

inferno said:


> hmm "deburring" sounds a lot like "cheating" to me
> 
> -------------
> 
> i'm gonna try this with the dmt 325. and according to scienceofsharp this will work.


Haha absolutely. The wax is ~10k


----------



## inferno (May 8, 2021)

yeah i just wanted to add a bit to this discussion. 

when talking actual shaving edges. there is a big difference in them. lately i've been shaving with DE razors. 
and there's like 100 different blades for them. and some are comfortable. some are not. some feel sharp. and some not. some cause irritation, some not.
and these are all made as actual shaving blades right. but for some people blade x feels very raw and tugging, for some other people it feels smooth and nice. and this is just the exact same blade on different faces.

so yeah ymmv i guess. personally i would never actually shave with a 120 edge. a 1k maybe. maybe. if i sharpened it myself. yeah i mean, it cuts hair. but the rest?? 

most people cant shave comfortably with less than a 8k edge. i cant shave off any of my coticules. it just wont happen. 

my preferred edge is the spyderco UF (conditioned) no strop. its a true mirror finish here. much higher than a naniwa 12k. this is my level of comfort at least.


----------



## jwthaparc (May 8, 2021)

inferno said:


> yeah i just wanted to add a bit to this discussion.
> 
> when talking actual shaving edges. there is a big difference in them. lately i've been shaving with DE razors.
> and there's like 100 different blades for them. and some are comfortable. some are not. some feel sharp. and some not. some cause irritation, some not.
> ...


I'm sure a 140 grit atoma edge can shave. It would likely tear, and bite into the skin too though. Making it quite uncomfortable.


----------



## inferno (May 8, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> I'm sure a 140 grit atoma edge can shave. It would likely tear, and bite into the skin too though. Making it quite uncomfortable.



exactly. cutting hair is one thing. but actual face shaving sharp is a whole nother thing. then on top of that. even though all DE blades that exist is shaving sharp not all of them are created equal. 

i almost never strop any of may shaving stuff. its still ultra comfortable off the UF stone. the UF is basically my strop. but it wont pass any HHT test!
yet it still shaves well. go figure.


----------



## jwthaparc (May 8, 2021)

inferno said:


> exactly. cutting hair is one thing. but actual face shaving sharp is a whole nother thing. then on top of that. even though all DE blades that exist is shaving sharp not all of them are created equal.
> 
> i almost never strop any of may shaving stuff. its still ultra comfortable off the UF stone. the UF is basically my strop. but it wont pass any HHT test!
> yet it still shaves well. go figure.


The spiderco uf?


----------



## inferno (May 8, 2021)

yeah. but you need to knock off the hundreds of stray particles with another sharpmaker rod or similar. otherwise its a C stone imo.


----------



## cotedupy (May 9, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Time for the real challenge. A hanging hair test done off of an atoma 140. No surface conditioning tricks will work with that.



I had a try sharpening on mine last night for a laugh... I really couldn't get anything resembling a normal burr or edge. It just kind've cut up and pushed around ragged steel, I can do much better on my Norton SiC Coarse. The difference I think was as you said I couldn't seem to work it in different ways, as I can with other things.

Afterwards (in solidarity with RD ), I tried 'de-burring' on something much finer - a slate. Which created a kind've weird edge - a combination of seeming not very sharp, and really quite sharp, simultaneously. It gets drastically different results on various different 'sharpness tests'. Not particularly ideal tbh, but you could probably tweak this combination a bit and do showy things to tomatoes, should you be that way inclined.

Neither, if it needs to be said, were troubling a hanging hair.

(And if I ever talked myself into getting a Kato or similar, I reckon I'd be pretty precious with it too. Though tbh I mostly eat vegetables anyway.)


----------



## jwthaparc (May 9, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> So I just tried sharpening on mine... god it's silly. You can't really form a burr, it just pushes ragged steel around from one side to the other. I was using quite a thin knife which mightn't have helped, but really it was quite blunt whatever way you spin it. Still though I felt I ought to deburr, just in case...
> 
> 
> I had a try sharpening on mine last night for a laugh... I really couldn't get anything resembling a normal burr or edge. It just kind've cut up and pushed around ragged steel, I can do much better on my Norton SiC Coarse. The difference I think was as you said I couldn't seem to work it in different ways, as I can with other things.
> ...


Now this is a bit more of what I was actually expecting. Sounds like you have a somewhat undulled aroma though. Maybe try with super light pressure, for more "conventional" sharpening results. I double anyone here will actually get a hanging hair test passing result off of one, but hey why not give it a try. I'll give it a go on my super worn in, with a flat spot in the middle atoma tomorrow just for fun.


----------



## cotedupy (May 9, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Now this is a bit more of what I was actually expecting. Sounds like you have a somewhat undulled aroma though. Maybe try with super light pressure, for more "conventional" sharpening results. I double anyone here will actually get a hanging hair test passing result off of one, but hey why not give it a try. I'll give it a go on my super worn in, with a flat spot in the middle atoma tomorrow just for fun.



I only got it a couple of months ago, but I've used it a fair bit for various different flattening jobs, so it's not completely new, but it's not as dulled as the older 400 side of the plate. I couldn't get lighter pressure to work though; the burr formation was so ragged it was more just like steel splinters on one side or the other, rather than a uniform bit that might come off as a sliver, so lighter pressure didn't really help. Though I imagine a more worn plate might do, slightly. Interesting to try it out though!

(I do also have an undulled, singular, and uncompromising aroma. But usually people are too polite to remark upon it. )


----------



## Kiru (May 9, 2021)

Very nice


----------



## jwthaparc (May 9, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I only got it a couple of months ago, but I've used it a fair bit for various different flattening jobs, so it's not completely new, but it's not as dulled as the older 400 side of the plate. I couldn't get lighter pressure to work though; the burr formation was so ragged it was more just like steel splinters on one side or the other, rather than a uniform bit that might come off as a sliver, so lighter pressure didn't really help. Though I imagine a more worn plate might do, slightly. Interesting to try it out though!
> 
> (I do also have an undulled, singular, and uncompromising aroma. But usually people are too polite to remark upon it. )


In my experience flattening doesn't put much wear on diamond plates. It's very likely that unless you're using it for knife sharpening work its pretty much like new.


----------



## cotedupy (May 9, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> In my experience flattening doesn't put much wear on diamond plates. It's very likely that unless you're using it for knife sharpening work its pretty much like new.



Ah yes... I'm not necessarily just using it for run-of-the-mill flattening of normal stones. I've also used it to properly flatten maybe 15 or so slates. And this too in particular will have taken its toll: Natural Sharpening Sandstones


----------



## runninscared (May 9, 2021)

inferno said:


> yeah i just wanted to add a bit to this discussion.
> 
> when talking actual shaving edges. there is a big difference in them. lately i've been shaving with DE razors.
> and there's like 100 different blades for them. and some are comfortable. some are not. some feel sharp. and some not. some cause irritation, some not.
> ...




i would never even consider shaving off any of my 1k stones, and i have a ton of them. it would just make for an uncomfortable shave. they always produce toothy edges that would just tear up my face. i always get a kick out of videos/pictures where i see people proclaiming "razor sharp" edges on their kitchen knives after being finished on a 320-1k just because it will actually cut hair. all this means is the edge is actually apex'd. im assuming most of these people have never shaved with an edge they've sharpened outside of their leg/arm hair. its a completely different thing putting a razor to your face if you have a toothy edge.

also, regarding the spyderco UF: interesting way of finishing. ive read/seen alot of peoples razor finishing routines but ive never seen someone finish on a spyderco UF stone and skip stropping afterwards. do you just mean no stropping strokes on the stone, but you still use a leather strop after? and is the stone just really glazed/loaded up since its a ceramic stone allowing it to finish at a very fine level?


----------



## ian (May 9, 2021)

RDalman said:


> I did 60 but deburred on felt wheel with some white wax on, in the old thread.



Same! I basically did 120, just with some light follow up work on 400, then 800, then 2k, then 6k, then 16k, then green compound on a balsa strop, then unloaded kangaroo leather.


----------



## kayman67 (May 9, 2021)

As you "float" the blade and use almost "negative" pressure (not an uncommon way of honing razors), you pretty much can't tell it's an edge that low. 



jwthaparc said:


> What was the worse shave?



Had plenty of razors that would qualify.


----------



## jwthaparc (May 10, 2021)

runninscared said:


> i would never even consider shaving off any of my 1k stones, and i have a ton of them. it would just make for an uncomfortable shave. they always produce toothy edges that would just tear up my face. i always get a kick out of videos/pictures where i see people proclaiming "razor sharp" edges on their kitchen knives after being finished on a 320-1k just because it will actually cut hair. all this means is the edge is actually apex'd. im assuming most of these people have never shaved with an edge they've sharpened outside of their leg/arm hair. its a completely different thing putting a razor to your face if you have a toothy edge.
> 
> also, regarding the spyderco UF: interesting way of finishing. ive read/seen alot of peoples razor finishing routines but ive never seen someone finish on a spyderco UF stone and skip stropping afterwards. do you just mean no stropping strokes on the stone, but you still use a leather strop after? and is the stone just really glazed/loaded up since its a ceramic stone allowing it to finish at a very fine level?


I know I've seen people get near mirror finishes on the UF with pocket knives. This is the first time I've heard if it being used for a razor finisher. I suppose it does make sense though. As it's a quite fine, very slow wearing and therefore flat stone.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 11, 2021)

This guy passed HHT 4 off a 80 grit. No other staff used. You can jump to 10"10, 19"05, and 22“29 to see results directly. https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1tW411s7kR


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 11, 2021)

This video is most stunning to me. His global knife can pass HHT 3 or 4 even after slicing a piece of wood many times.



https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV17E411J79n


----------



## Kawa (Sep 11, 2021)

Is that a hair, or a thin rope


----------



## ian (Sep 11, 2021)

Horse hair? Probably a lot easier than human hair, whatever it is. But the knife looks sharp!


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 11, 2021)

That anyone can make a Global that sharp is undoubtedly impressive! However... drawing it through what looks like quite a soft bit of wood is probably going to refine an edge to some degree I'd have thought (like cork)?

Here's my silly example/experiment from a while back...


Might have to try the wood thing though, maybe I'm just being a bluff old cynic!


----------



## ian (Sep 11, 2021)

You look very refined with your pinky in the air! I approve.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 11, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> That anyone can make a Global that sharp is undoubtedly impressive! However... drawing it through what looks like quite a soft bit of wood is probably going to refine an edge to some degree I'd have thought (like cork)?
> 
> Here's my silly example/experiment from a while back...
> 
> ...



I thought the same but I tried myself and couldn’t get nearly the same result. I can pass HHT 4 on a lot carbon knives and occasionally SG2 but once I slice my Hinoki, which is quite soft, for maybe ten times I lost that edge.


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 11, 2021)

ian said:


> You look very refined with your pinky in the air! I approve.



Traditional British boarding school education has done that to me. Don't even have to think about it now... just comes naturally.


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 11, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> I thought the same but I tried myself and couldn’t get nearly the same result. I can pass HHT 4 on a lot carbon knives and occasionally SG2 but once I slice my Hinoki, which is quite soft, for maybe ten times I lost that edge.



Probably depends a lot on how thin the knife is and the kind of wood, I just pulled this one through a piece of camphor about 30 times and it's maybe even sharper than before. But admittedly I've made it very thin, and it's not a global, which I find impossible to sharpen to even a vaguely usable level at the best of times!


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 11, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Is that a hair, or a thin rope


Definitely thick hair. The top comment under the video asked the same question and he replied it's his mom's long hair... Anyway, it's a global knife which many claim as crappy HT.


----------



## Hz_zzzzzz (Sep 11, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Probably depends a lot on how thin the knife is and the kind of wood, I just pulled this one through a piece of camphor about 30 times and it's maybe even sharper than before. But admittedly I've made it very thin, and it's not a global, which I find impossible to sharpen to even a vaguely usable level at the best of times!



That's impressive. I gotta learn how to do it. I haven't been able to pass HHT off stones under 3k grit so there's a long way to go for me.


----------



## inferno (Sep 11, 2021)

why do you even test this ****? i've sharpened razors on a spyderco UF. and it wont pass this test but it shaves like ****ing crazy. go figure. better than all my waterstones.
this is a BS test if you ask me.


----------



## kayman67 (Sep 11, 2021)

That's because good shaving has nothing to do with HHT. That's another myth with blades in general.


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 12, 2021)

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> That's impressive. I gotta learn how to do it. I haven't been able to pass HHT off stones under 3k grit so there's a long way to go for me.



Ah I'm slightly cheating tbh... this is my test knife, I probably use it more for trying out new stones than cooking. I scuff the edge up on sandpaper then see how quickly a stone will restore it. And so that it doesn't take too long I've made the knife excessively thin, it wouldn't hold up very well with prolonged use I don't expect.

To give an idea of how thin this is at the edge - it's a 150mm Petty, maybe 2mm spine at the heel, 1.5mm at the bottom of this picture:


----------



## cotedupy (Sep 12, 2021)

inferno said:


> why do you even test this ****? i've sharpened razors on a spyderco UF. and it wont pass this test but it shaves like ****ing crazy. go figure. better than all my waterstones.
> this is a BS test if you ask me.



Sh*ts 'n' giggles!


----------



## natto (Sep 12, 2021)

inferno said:


> why do you even test this ****? i've sharpened razors on a spyderco UF. and it wont pass this test but it shaves like ****ing crazy. go figure. better than all my waterstones.
> this is a BS test if you ask me.


To me it's testing what I can achieve on a given stone, nothing about working edges.


----------



## Kawa (Sep 13, 2021)

kayman67 said:


> That's because good shaving has nothing to do with HHT. That's another myth with blades in general.



Could you explain a little bit?


----------



## stringer (Sep 13, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Could you explain a little bit?



It is possible to have a very clean, tight, comfortable shave with blade that doesn't pass the HHT. On the other hand, it is possible to have a razor that easily passes the HHT but delivers a shave that is too harsh or doesn't cut stubble close or that doesn't have a full clean bevel.

HHT for razors is kind of like a paper test for knives. The value of the test is not intrinsic but instead relies on the skills and experience of the sharpener to interpret the results in a given situation.


----------



## kayman67 (Sep 13, 2021)

Excellent shaves have been reported again and again with razors that would not do great with HHT and the opposite with blades that "would split hairs before they would touch the apex". It has something to do with the way edges interact with hair and skin. You don't just cut hair. You can "shave" some skin layers and also the way the blade leaves the hair cut has an effect later on, that can get quite unpleasant. 
This brings us to comfortable great edges and such, that sometimes don't even pass HHT.


----------



## Kawa (Sep 13, 2021)

Hard to imagine, but I don't shave with a straight razor.
I was thinking that the more refined an edge was, the better for a smooth shave.
I was also thinking that a clean, refined edge was what is needed for a HHT.

Appearently there is more to this  thx for explaining


----------



## Luftmensch (Sep 13, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Hard to imagine, but I don't shave with a straight razor.
> I was thinking that the more refined an edge was, the better for a smooth shave.
> I was also thinking that a clean, refined edge was what is needed for a HHT.
> 
> Appearently there is more to this  thx for explaining



The Suehiro Gokumyo 20k isn't talked about much in these parts. It is an absurdly high grit stone that has more appeal in the straight razor community. It produces very highly polished edges but *I* found it reduced comfort - a 'harsh' shave if you will. To be fair... I never spent a whole lot of time 'learning' the stone. Anyway, subjective experience aside, I tend to think what @kayman67 says is likely true:



kayman67 said:


> You don't just cut hair. You can "shave" some skin layers



A comfortable shave isnt necessarily the 'sharpest' blade possible! You want it to be sharp enough to cut hair effortlessly without aggravating the skin. In the shaving world, there is a _huge_ amount of pseudoscience and speculation surrounding edge quality. A lot of this is used in the natural stones vs synthetic stones debate. For instance, there is speculation that a higher grit variation in natural stones creates a slightly irregular edge. And that the slurry creates mildly rounded over edges. Both leading to edges that are 'smoother' and less demanding of technique (aka a duller apex?).

I haven't poked my head into the debate for a long time. I dont think there is a broadly accepted definitive answer? But suffice to say, there is a long history of anecdotal evidence that seems to suggest that higher grits do not always result in more comfortable shaves... and conversely, good shaves can be achieved without putting in a crazy amount of effort.


----------



## inferno (Sep 16, 2021)

just want to add that i dont think luftmenchs results are BS. this is good work imo.

just wanted to say pretty much what stringer said.

you can have a razor that passes the hht but shaves very harsh, and you can have one that doesn't and still shaves very good.

these days i dont even do the hht test anymore. i just test shave. and then i know within a second if its gonna work or not. hht or not.

-----

just a little anecdote. i have tried sharpening my iwasaki kamisori on basically every stone i own but only one stone makes it shave. and its the UF. and i can shave straight off the stone. no stropping, no nothing. but its not gonna pass the hht. yet it still works.

so i'm not really concerned about passing the hht test with razors at least.

also i have tried shaving after the dmt 325/C and this easily passes the hht but its quite harsh imo. but it works. its not like the shapton 12k if you know what i mean. but it works and passes the hht. but its not good. and thats why i feel the hht is a one trick pony. and while this test usually gives you an indication that you actually can shave with the razor its no guarantee.

and this of coarse depends on you wanted level of comfort. i can technically shave off a 1k stone. but its not gonna be that pleasant if you know what i mean.


----------

