# Vertoku Knives - Buyer Beware



## Honerabi

I should have known better. Received an email from this company, supposedly based in Portland, OR. They offered a nice looking, Japanese style, 8" chefs knife. The ad crows about VG10 steel layered with 66 layers of Damascus steel. The knife has a nice looking resing/wood handle, reinforced at both ends. 









Damascus Steel 8'' Chef Knife with Blue Resin Handle


Our business is still shipping orders during this time. Impress your guests with this amazing, eye-catching knife! These 8'' Chef Knives are crafted from Japanese VG10 steel and layered with 33 layers of Damascus Steel on both sides of the blade. These layers are folded and forged, creating a...




vertoku.com





What I received was nothing like what was advertised. I received a kirtsuke blade, 1/16 in thick steel plate, definitely not Damascus. There was a laser etch on the blade to fake it up. I have Damascus blades from Rajasthan, Shun, and Bob Cramer. The handle isn't anything like what was advertised, no bolster reinforcement, no endcap. It was some sort of molded plastic. 

The ad was too good to be true. The site is loaded up with faked reviews. The only ones you can believe are the negatives. Not one verified purchase. 

To return the item you are required to return it to Jinhua, China. Untracked and tracked USPS will run you 30% and 60% of the purchase price. I thought I could deal with this but it just isn't worth the aggravation. What a POS!


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## AFKitchenknivesguy

Quickly opening the link, it says "free shipping to the USA", indicating it isn't made here. Visually it looks like it's processed in a factory too. Appreciate the heads up, although I don't think most people here would even consider it.


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## parbaked

Honerabi said:


> I have Damascus blades from Rajasthan, Shun, and Bob Cramer.


I'm guessing your Cramer is also fake, likely from China...


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## Mariner

I and others have been tracking Vertoku and imitators in the r/chefknives subreddit:

Vertoku:




Imitators (Aikido, kizoku steel)
 (follow to the end for semi-sad comment by Kizoku, a real company being imitated by online vendors)


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## daveb

Not trying to be "that guy" but anyone buying product off Faceybook is simply paying for lessons in life. Fortunately in the grand scheme of things they are not expensive lessons unless one doesn't learn from them.


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## Mariner

daveb said:


> Not trying to be "that guy" but anyone buying product off Faceybook is simply paying for lessons in life. Fortunately in the grand scheme of things they are not expensive lessons unless one doesn't learn from them.


Facebook and basically any social media purchase. Kickstarter has become especially sour lately.


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## Nemo

The old advice: "Buy a knife made by a reputable knifemaker, preferably from a reputable vendor" bears repeating.

It's an excellent way of avoiding buying junk knives.


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## Honerabi

parbaked said:


> I'm guessing your Cramer is also fake, likely from China...


How do you tell if a Bob Cramer is faked up? I bought it from a reputable shop.


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## Honerabi

Mariner said:


> I and others have been tracking Vertoku and imitators in the r/chefknives subreddit:
> 
> Vertoku:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imitators (Aikido, kizoku steel)
> (follow to the end for semi-sad comment by Kizoku, a real company being imitated by online vendors)



I was suspicious of the ad from the start. I thought I'd go through the exercise for the entertainment. Shouldn't have, got too PO about it. 
Everything is getting faked up. Knives, fine pens (Montblanc, S.T. Dupont), European pipes, Havana cigars, antiques (British Navy hardhat I saw in Yangon!), watches, fine wines, you name it. One really has to know what they are doing. If you want the real deal, you have to know your source, and pay full price.


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## daveb

Honerabi said:


> How do you tell if a Bob Cramer is faked up? I bought it from a reputable shop.



He spells it with a "K".


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## Honerabi

Honerabi said:


> How do you tell if a Bob Cramer is faked up? I bought it from a reputable shop.


Zwilling Bob Kramer is made in Seki, Japan, if you can believe the ads. My Damascus knives from Rajasthan are replicas, as the originals are, as far as I know, rusted away unless in a museum. 
There are some decent products from China, but the manufacturing has to have strict QA.


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## Mariner

Honerabi said:


> I was suspicious of the ad from the start. I thought I'd go through the exercise for the entertainment. Shouldn't have, got too PO about it.
> Everything is getting faked up. Knives, fine pens (Montblanc, S.T. Dupont), European pipes, Havana cigars, antiques (British Navy hardhat I saw in Yangon!), watches, fine wines, you name it. One really has to know what they are doing. If you want the real deal, you have to know your source, and pay full price.



Yep, unfortunate reality but as folks around the world get more discretionary income and value luxury commodities, companies will spring up offering similar items at discount prices. Online, and especially on social media, these offers tend to be short on info and a mid-sized marketing budget results in major profit.


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## labor of love

Basically any company with a budget for advertising and spamming social media is likely taking away funding of the the actual work it takes to make the knife itself.
The math has to add up somehow.


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## demirtasem

labor of love said:


> Basically any company with a budget for advertising and spamming social media is likely taking away funding of the the actual work it takes to make the knife itself.
> The math has to add up somehow.




Except Kamikoto LOL


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## ma_sha1

To the OP,

FYI, the knife you wanted is not real Damascus, it’s just printed pattern, although a beautiful feather Damascus pattern.

You can get it for $35 on AliExpress or about $50 on ebay.


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## WPerry

Can you file a dispute with the company (credit card, PayPal, etc) that you used to pay for the knife?


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## M1k3

WPerry said:


> Can you file a dispute with the company (credit card, PayPal, etc) that you used to pay for the knife?


For what? Marking up a product? Falsifying Damascus pattern, like Shun?


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## WPerry

M1k3 said:


> For what? Marking up a product? Falsifying Damascus pattern, like Shun?


 - 


Honerabi said:


> What I received was nothing like what was advertised.


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## M1k3

"There was a laser etch on the blade to fake it up."

Like Shun and other companies do.


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## WPerry

And? Unless you're a representative of the company that he used to fund the transaction, your opinion isn't terribly important. He can ask them and they can decide whether or not to pursue it on his behalf - it's a service that many offer.


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## M1k3

It came with a pattern. 
Crappy pattern. 
But was there.


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## parbaked

It would be interesting to see a picture of the knife you received so we can compare to the ad.
The quality of the damascus is probably not relevant in a dispute compared to the clear facts that the knife is a K-Tip and the handle has no metal bolster or ebony so the item is not as described or pictured in the ad.
I would open a dispute with your credit card company or PayPal.


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## WPerry

M1k3 said:


> It came with a pattern.
> Crappy pattern.
> But was there.



Why are you seemingly invested in him getting burned? Schadenfreude? Again, not that your opinion means squat as it relates to the OP. Beyond that -







^^^ That's significantly different that simply stating that it was a blade with a Damascus pattern.


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## M1k3

No, I don't wish for anyone to get ripped off. Just saying, Damascus pattern, check. Gyuto shape, nope. Correct handle, nope.


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## labor of love

WPerry said:


> Why are you seemingly invested in him getting burned? Schadenfreude? Again, not that your opinion means squat


Bruh calm down. This is a forum.


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## WPerry

M1k3 said:


> No, I don't wish for anyone to get ripped off.



So why are you arguing against the advice that he seek arbitration?



labor of love said:


> Bruh calm down. This is a forum.



If you think that I'm worked up, you've misread my tone. 

But it's good to see another Viking fan here.


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## M1k3

WPerry said:


> So why are you arguing against the advice that he seek arbitration?
> 
> 
> 
> If you think that I'm worked up, you've misread my tone.
> 
> But it's good to see another Viking fan here.


I'm arguing for filing a claim for real reasons. Like blade shape and wrong handle. Not crap that is there, just not up to expectations.

Would you complain that a 'Lobster Roll' wasn't made from Maine lobster while ignoring it was served on sliced bread?


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## labor of love

I do love me some Adam Thielen and Justin Jefferson was a steal in the draft.

Probably a bad look to tell anyone their opinion doesn’t mean anything, especially when they’re making a coherent argument.
You might be pushing off as badly as Kyle Rudolph


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## WPerry

M1k3 said:


> I'm arguing for filing a claim for real reasons. Like blade shape and wrong handle. Not crap that is there, just not up to expectations.



That was you arguing that he file a claim like I suggested? Okay, but you seemed a wee bit contrary. In any event, it looks like we're on the same page, now. Cool.


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## daveb

He's a lot contrary  

Not sure why anyone is getting wrapped around the axle about a sub $50 knife. If that's all the f****** one takes in the knife world then they've had a pretty easy time of it.


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## WPerry

labor of love said:


> Probably a bad look to tell anyone their opinion doesn’t mean anything, especially when they’re making a coherent argument.



I didn't say that his opinion didn't mean anything - I said that his opinion didn't mean anything with regards to the OP's dispute. Twice. And again, saying that he can't/shouldn't dispute the dami pattern isn't a coherent argument - the company specifically advertises forged layers, not a pattern, so that's additional reason to file a dispute. Wrong handle, wrong blade shape, wrong blade construction.



labor of love said:


> You might be pushing off as badly as Kyle Rudolph



Let them boys play.


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## M1k3




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## labor of love

WPerry said:


> I didn't say that his opinion didn't mean anything - I said that his opinion didn't mean anything with regards to the OP's dispute. Twice. And again, saying that he can't/shouldn't dispute the dami pattern isn't a coherent argument - the company specifically advertises forged layers, not a pattern, so that's additional reason to file a dispute. Wrong handle, wrong blade shape, wrong blade construction.
> 
> 
> 
> Let them boys play.


But even now youre wrong. The company states that the knife has 33 layers and that the blade is forged. 
Keep grasping at straws, I’ll be here all day.


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## M1k3

Marketing=1
Shipping department=-1
Customer=


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## WPerry

labor of love said:


> The company states that the knife has 33 layers and that the blade is forged.



....yeah, that's what I said. The OP said that that's not true - it's clearly lasered. M1k3 said that it didn't matter that that wasn't true. I said, "of course it matters," and here we are. 

Y'all are confusing.


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## M1k3

Marketing.

Forged. (Heated)
Damascus pattern. (Laser etching)
33/66 layers in the pattern (map for the lasers).

Forged Damascus 33/66 layer pattern.


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## WPerry

I really hope that you're taking the piss and don't actually believe that. 







They're making clear, untrue claims about the construction. That's not marketing, it's false advertising.


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## M1k3




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## labor of love

I find it both insensitive and borderline racist the way you mock and ridicule traditional Japanese knife making a forging methods with regards to Damascus production.
Please consider how your words and the micro aggressions hidden beneath the meanings can effect others before you post in the future.


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## Honerabi

ma_sha1 said:


> To the OP,
> 
> FYI, the knife you wanted is not real Damascus, it’s just printed pattern, although a beautiful feather Damascus pattern.
> 
> You can get it for $35 on AliExpress or about $50 on ebay.


Printed? Thanks, I thought laser etch was too high tech for these turkeys. They crow Damascus all over their ads, and show real Damascus steel in their images.


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## Honerabi

WPerry said:


> Can you file a dispute with the company (credit card, PayPal, etc) that you used to pay for the knife?



I filed a dispute with PayPal. They denied the claim because I didn't send it back (now to Manly, NSW, Oz) with tracking. Tracking doubled the price. They wouldn't accept the receipts. PayPal is anothe chicken-s*** company with no customer service. I wonder if Peter Thiel is still cowering in his bunker in New Zealand.


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## Honerabi

parbaked said:


> It would be interesting to see a picture of the knife you received so we can compare to the ad.
> The quality of the damascus is probably not relevant in a dispute compared to the clear facts that the knife is a K-Tip and the handle has no metal bolster or ebony so the item is not as described or pictured in the ad.
> I would open a dispute with your credit card company or PayPal.


There is an attachment with an image in my original post.


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## ma_sha1

Honerabi said:


> Printed? Thanks, I thought laser etch was too high tech for these turkeys. They crow Damascus all over their ads, and show real Damascus steel in their images.



Sorry for not been precise, as “printed”, I just meant not folded steel. It could very likely be laser etched.

I had this exact knife a while back from AliExpress, the pattern looked very high tech actually, looks like Shun or Miyabi surface, flaw less. The handle was beautiful. 

The only reason I concluded that it’s not folded steel is because the pattern is not random, mine had the pattern of a carbon copy of the ads.

The fit & finish of the knife was very good, at Shun level, but the knife is a bit thick behind the edge, so it doesn’t cut as well as Shun. The steel is China domestic vg10, I.e. 10CR steel, same composition as Japanese vg10, but not from Japan.


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## Honerabi

ma_sha1 said:


> Sorry for not been precise, as “printed”, I just meant not folded steel. It could very likely be laser etched.
> 
> I had this exact knife a while back from AliExpress, the pattern looked very high tech actually, looks like Shun or Miyabi surface, flaw less. The handle was beautiful.
> 
> The only reason I concluded that it’s not folded steel is because the pattern is not random, mine had the pattern of a carbon copy of the ads.
> 
> The fit & finish of the knife was very good, at Shun level, but the knife is a bit thick behind the edge, so it doesn’t cut as well as Shun. The steel is China domestic vg10, I.e. 10CR steel, same composition as Japanese vg10, but not from Japan.



Thanks for your info on this knife. I will look up the 10CR designation of the alloy, the Chinese VG10 version. IMHO the alloys and heat treat have been what separates the pack of fine cutlery manufacturers. Historically it's been steels from Germany (Solingen), Sweden, and Japan. Over the recent past I've been interested in the Damascus process. The process dates from the Middle Ages and the huge fighting swords. 
Don't know if much is coming out of Damascus, Syria these days. The Rajasthanis of NW India, and the Japanese Samurai used the process. 

I've been collecting chef's knives since my first Sabbatier 8" chefs I bought in 1969. I have way too many now. I am probably too critical now.


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## GeeWhizBang

I have a set of these "Vertoku" knives and I don't believe that they are actually Damascus steel at this rather low price. The provenance of these particular knives is rather sketchy, mine actually came from a different company, but later when I wanted to buy more for my sister, I got them from Vertoku. There are a couple of other companies selling them as well with different branding but the rather distinctive handles which seem to be hollow wood attached by a steel plate at the end of the handle rather than the usual rivets make it hard to mistake them.

They cost a bit less than a full set of somewhat awful Kitchen Aid knives from Fred Meyer. But they are very, very sharp, nicely balanced, they resharpen very easily. They are, however, a bit delicate, my previous roommates weren't very careful with them and one of the blades has a chip it it where it looks like it was used to cut cardboard and a matching scratch where it must have hit a metal staple. It will gradually sharpen out of the knife, or I could grind it out, but it doesn't really seem to hurt.

But for under $100 I got five knives that are wicked sharp, have a nice balance and I really don't care about the provenance.


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## daveb

Enjoy.


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## Boynutman

M1k3 said:


> Marketing.
> 
> Forged. (Heated)
> Damascus pattern. (Laser etching)
> 33/66 layers in the pattern (map for the lasers).
> 
> Forged Damascus 33/66 layer pattern.



So how would 33/66 layers work? Fold steel once, 2 layers, twice, 4 layers, 8, 16, 32...
Maybe overthinking things.


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## M1k3

Boynutman said:


> So how would 33/66 layers work? Fold steel once, 2 layers, twice, 4 layers, 8, 16, 32...
> Maybe overthinking things.


32 layers + core steel = 33. 66....I don't know. Double core steel?  Marketing says 66 sounds better.


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## daveb

This is what happens when marketing is on the top floor, design is on the bottom and production is in the basement.


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## Noodle Soup

The first thing I always look for in a knife is an ad that states they will "impress my friends" who know next to nothing about kitchen knives.


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## GeeWhizBang

Yes a lot of what is used to market these is ********, but they really are pretty damn nice knives for a price that is less than the cost of mediocre KitchenAid sets at your local store. The wood handles are comfortable, nicely rounded, seem to hold up fine without rotting, the Damascus steel is a forged on texture not really multilayer, but they are wicked sharp, easy to sharpen and nicely balanced. I liked them so much I bought my sister a set.

I have friends with expensive knives that aren't this good. They don't take the good edge. Most European knives kinda suck.

Sure, a $300 each Japanese knife is better - but these get just as sharp if not quite as perfectly weighted and durable. I have to sharpen these twice a month instead of once every six weeks like my roommates hugely expensive japanese knives.


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## Jovidah

Prioritizing damascus, especially in a cheaper knife, is a good way to get burnt. In a low budget knife there's only so much money that time and money that can go into the product. If all of it is spent on looks, generally very little is left for performance. The damascus stuff especially is there to cater to the uninformed masses, and if it's less than 500 bucks it's pretty much guaranteed to be prelaminated stock at best.

Comparing it with a Wüsthof or a Henckels isn't a very high bar to clear... just like most 'knive sets' are crap. You don't need to get a 300 euro J-knife to get something better. Plus in my experience 'gets just as sharp' is a very dubious claim when it comes to Chinese VG-10... I don't know what suposedly hugely expensive Japanese knives your roommate has but in my experience there's always been a huge gap between even mid-level J-knives and the Chinese imitation crap.
Another major issue with this kind of Chinese junk is the high variability. You might get lucky and gotten a decent one, but often there's huge variability between different knives of the same line (both in grind and heat treatment).
Buying into the 'great Chinese-made VG-10 deals' was basically the biggest waste of 100-200 euros in my knife journey.


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## GeeWhizBang

I think there is a lot of excess markup on knives especially Japanese ones. They go thru traditional several levels of distribution before they get to you.

The Chinese are getting way better at not making junk. I have several Chinese made audio products like headphones, DAC, headphone amplifiers that are very sharply priced but exceedingly high quality.

Yes I would love a set of my ex roommates Japanese knives but they would cost $1200. The Vertoku knives are way better than the French or German knives he had despite all the phony marketing and rather sketchy provenance.


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## btbyrd

Vertoku knives are Alibaba/Aliexpress garbage marked up 600% and marketed with lies. They are garbage knives sold by garbage people.

Here's a set of Vertoku knives being sold on their website for $460. And here is the exact same set of knives being sold on Aliexpress for $79.50.

Nobody should buy any of this low quality trash. It's not trash because it's Chinese. China makes lots of nice things. It's trash because it's trash.


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## GeeWhizBang

The bit about variability, it's rather unlikely that all six of my knives went through the exact same process at the same time but they all sharpen just fine.


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## GeeWhizBang

GeeWhizBang said:


> The bit about variability, it's rather unlikely that all six of my knives went through the exact same process at the same time but they all sharpen just fine.



I paid $100 for my set.


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## btbyrd

You overpaid.


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## GeeWhizBang

They were cheaper than a set of lousy kitchen Aid knives, and they work just fine. They are really, really sharp and nicely balanced. I'm happy. What would you recommend for six knives at that price?


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## btbyrd

I don't recommend six knives at that price.


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## M1k3

btbyrd said:


> I don't recommend six knives at that price.


Victorinox possibly fits this, especially if you like paring knives.


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## GeeWhizBang

So they are just not expensive enough, apparently, it hardly matters how well they seem to work. I have used considerably more expensive knives that didn't take such a nice edge as these.


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## btbyrd

No. I said they are too expensive for what they are. Paying any amount of money for a set of lasered-on “Damascus“ knives is a mistake.


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## btbyrd

And if you do decide to make the decision to buy Alibaba/Aliexpress stuff, save yourself the money and go straight to the source. Vertoku doesn't sell the 6-piece $100 set anymore, but they do offer a 5-piece one for $100. And here are the same exact knives on Aliwhatever for $42. The 8-piece set is $160 from Vertoku and $61 on Aliwhatever.

So please... continue talking about how much markup there is on Japanese knives.


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## daveb

Everybody take a breath.

OP - I hope you continue to enjoy your knives. This is a site that's focused on wares for knife geeks. There are properties of those knives (and most of their brethren) that have been found wanting by the resident geeks, myself included. But at the end of the day, they're your knives and if you like them, good on you.

Hope you'll stick around.


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## btbyrd

Apologies if I was a bit too harsh; I'm not trying to abuse or insult GWB. I'm mostly averse to Vertoku and their business practices, as well as those of countless other vendors who rebrand cheap Chinese knives and sell them at extreme markups. I'm also against OEMs who cut corners but then add extra manufacturing steps to make it look like they didn't (like not using layered steel but lasering on a pattern to make it look like there are layers). This is the sign that they're not serious about creating a quality knife and that they want to appeal to buyers who value style over substance. In the end, these are somewhat sketchy knives of unknown provenance, unknown steel, and unknown heat treatment. It sounds like the company selling them misrepresented their product or shipped the wrong thing and didn't take care of the error. I'm glad that GWB is happy with the set for the price he paid, but I'd steer people toward a basic "set" of a Victorinox chef and paring knives along with a Tojiro bread knife.


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## GeeWhizBang

The Damascus texture is just rolled or stamped on i doubt that they use lasers and it serves the same purpose as the circular scallops some knives have. I have bought much more expensive german and french knives that were kind of terrible. I've never tried Victorinox, they would be the same company that makes the Swiss Army knives, right? 

The various german and french knives I've had just didn't get sharp or stay sharp, and I know how to do that properly. Anytime I'm a guest at a friend's house that cooks a lot he's quite happy to have me sharpen his knives. He has about 20 knives and about four of them sharpen quite nicely. Others that cost 4x as much as mine, not so much. One of the most expensive ones he has, does get really sharp and seems a bit less delicate than my Chinese ones.

These get so sharp I don't even need a bread knife. Even fairly soft bread cuts easily. So what properties don't they have compared to a knife that you would "respect" and I really don't care that they aren't really damascus, I didn't believe that in the first place at this price. What I care about is balance, nice rounded handles, and a good edge and these have it. Perhaps the edge is too easily dulled on these and I could possibly agree with that.


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## McMan

Does Vertoku pay by the word?


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## HumbleHomeCook

GeeWhizBang said:


> The Damascus texture is just rolled or stamped on i doubt that they use lasers and it serves the same purpose as the circular scallops some knives have.
> 
> ...



And that would be?


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## GeeWhizBang

HumbleHomeCook said:


> And that would be?


My impression is that it is intended to encourage sliced items to fall off the knife.


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## GeeWhizBang

McMan said:


> Does Vertoku pay by the word?


My set didn't even come from them. The company I bought them from switched to even fancier looking and far more expensive Chinese knives with side rivets on the handles (not that it really matters) and Vertoku came up on a search when I wanted to buy similar knives for my sister. They never came up on Alibaba, but google seems to ignore listing things from Alibaba. I am here trying to figure out why a knife that takes such a good edge is considered bogus somehow. I do realize that some of their claims about the knives don't hold much water, the company I bought them from insisted that they were actually Japanese, at least Vertoku is honest that they come from China.

But you guys are right that you can find them for much less elsewhere and it's hugely surprising how much less. Like $10 a set. I should have searched on Alibaba.


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## migwal

M1k3 said:


> For what? Marking up a product? Falsifying Damascus pattern, like Shun?


Say it ain’t so! I’m heartbroken, haha. I thinned my 8’ Shun classic gyuto a decent amount and all the damascus pattern remained. Must be a somewhat deep etch/engraving?


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## Delat

migwal said:


> Say it ain’t so! I’m heartbroken, haha. I thinned my 8’ Shun classic gyuto a decent amount and all the damascus pattern remained. Must be a somewhat deep etch/engraving?



I believe Shun is actually real damascus.


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## GeeWhizBang

So I have found a seller on Alibaba, that has a larger set that what I bought (2 more knives, and the two extra ones look like they'd be useful) for $87 including shipping. The Chinese companies are completely honest about what they are, they are "laser pattern, Japanese-style knives"


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## btbyrd

Honest garbage is still garbage.


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## Delat

GeeWhizBang said:


> So I have found a seller on Alibaba, that has a larger set that what I bought (2 more knives, and the two extra ones look like they'd be useful) for $87 including shipping. The Chinese companies are completely honest about what they are, they are "laser pattern, Japanese-style knives"



Happy you love your knives. If you give a set for Christmas to your friend who collects expensive Japanese knives, let him know he can sell his j-knives here on BST.


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## GeeWhizBang

ma_sha1 said:


> To the OP,
> 
> FYI, the knife you wanted is not real Damascus, it’s just printed pattern, although a beautiful feather Damascus pattern.
> 
> You can get it for $35 on AliExpress or about $50 on ebay.



With shipping in single order quantities, the price is more like $90 for a set of eight knives. It's still cheaper than a set of barely ok Kitchen Aide knives, and they are considerably sharper than that. If you can afford to order a few hundred at the time and wait for three months for them to ship by container, the price does go down by about half, but even the Vertoku price isn't unreasonable retail, it's just the lies that are a bit disconcerting. It doesn't matter to me if they are really Damascus steel, they work just fine, they didn't need to lie about them.


Delat said:


> Happy you love your knives. If you give a set for Christmas to your friend who collects expensive Japanese knives, let him know he can sell his j-knives here on BST.


He just collects things. His entire house is piled high with various things he's bought over the years, he has narrow aisles all over the house, boxes in front of cabinets and the dishwasher, counters piled high with stuff, and half of the huge kitchen cabinets are full of stuff he never uses. And even though he had these beautiful knives they were dull as eff when I first moved in, but boy did they resharpen beautifully. Some of the items are valuable others are just junk like 30 year old calculators. He owns about 300 knives, and other than the Japanese ones, none of them are collector's items. He's just hoarding.

I do agree that his $300+ Japanese knives are better than my $90 set. But the $150 or so each French and German knives are considerably worse than these cheap Chinese knives. But I can't afford $300 for a knife, and these are awfully good, very sharp, nicely balanced knives with comfortable handles for the price.

I am in an apartment now with 1/4 of the cabinet space and I have more room for my cooking gear than he did in his huge kitchen.

Out of sheer curiosity I've ordered a set of eight knives directly from China for $89, which is about $30 less than I paid for my six-piece set. I'm sure I can find someone that will be very happy with them as a gift.


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## Delat

GeeWhizBang said:


> He's just hoarding.



Definitely sounds like hoarding - I hope he’s able to get the help he needs. Hoarding always seemed like a horrible mental disease to me because it starts off so small and then one day your friends are looking at you like you’re crazy but you have no idea why.

Regardless of relative value, as long as you like your knives and they’re in budget that’s what counts at the end of the day. A carrot is a carrot and as long as it ends up in the pot we all get to eat.


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## talcum

Mariner said:


> Facebook and basically any social media purchase. Kickstarter has become especially sour lately.


Wait, I just bought a parer from Butch on Facebook a couple of months ago. And it certainly looked like him and the knife seems to be CPM154 (still). So maybe it's just "Caveat emptor" and know your source if you go that route.


----------



## GeeWhizBang

So out of curiosity I ordered a set directly on Alibaba. The whole set of eight knives is $23 in China. It cost another $55 including tax to have them shipped to Seattle.

This is about one third as much as my first set from a vendor even more sketchy than Vertoku. It's a little cheaper than Vertoku's price.

They may not meet the minimum standard of knife afficionados but they still are wicked sharp, with nice rounded handles, and they don't look cheap. I'm going to suggest that they are perhaps not stainless but are heavily chrome plated carbon steel. This explains the absolutely fabulous sharpness, carbon steel has a much finer grain structure than stainless.

It wasn't good when my previous roommates washed them in the dishwasher or soaked them in the sink. The edge corrodes. But if you wash them by hand this doesn't happen.

But as a practical matter these are an absolute joy to use and cost less than a set of mediocre Kitchen Aide knives. They are certainly sharper than my former roommates German and French knives.


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## Hz_zzzzzz

GeeWhizBang said:


> So out of curiosity I ordered a set directly on Alibaba. The whole set of eight knives is $23 in China. It cost another $55 including tax to have them shipped to Seattle.
> 
> This is about one third as much as my first set from a vendor even more sketchy than Vertoku. It's a little cheaper than Vertoku's price.
> 
> They may not meet the minimum standard of knife afficionados but they still are wicked sharp, with nice rounded handles, and they don't look cheap. I'm going to suggest that they are perhaps not stainless but are heavily chrome plated carbon steel. This explains the absolutely fabulous sharpness, carbon steel has a much finer grain structure than stainless.
> 
> It wasn't good when my previous roommates washed them in the dishwasher or soaked them in the sink. The edge corrodes. But if you wash them by hand this doesn't happen.
> 
> But as a practical matter these are an absolute joy to use and cost less than a set of mediocre Kitchen Aide knives. They are certainly sharper than my former roommates German and French knives.



At that price I don’t think it’s real Japanese VG10 or even AUS10 steel. It’s possibly the Chinese made “vg10” type of steel which has 0.8-1% carbon and it could take a better edge than those German x50 steels. For real imported AUS10 the lowest price they can sell a chef’s knife locally in China is about $20. No way they can sell an 8-knife set and shipping to US for only $78.

I’ve bought multiple $40 Chinese cleavers made with Chinese 9cr steel (0.9% carbon) for my families in China and they all love it. It comes a better edge than almost all Shibazi and all regular Zwilling knives (2 most popular brands in China) and it’s kinda thin behind the edge so all my family love it. I think the handmade Japanese knives are not overpriced compared with Chinese factory made knives because it’s an entirely different market (they could be overpriced compared to Western artisan knife makers though), but I agree German Zwilling /Wusthof knives COULD be overpriced for mass family market or commercial market. Even Victorinox, Chinese can probably make a similar preliminated knife using the exactly same Sandvik steel and handle and good HT and sells it for half the price like $15.

This knife series uses real prelaminated multilayer damascus AUS10 steel and the vendor sells it for about $50 for a 210 or $60 for a 240. It uses a nice wood handle and the knife is laser thin. Just want to show you the normal price for a nicely made Chinese knife using real Japanese steels. Still very cheap but not that cheap.


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## tostadas

Hz_zzzzzz said:


> At that price I don’t think it’s real Japanese VG10 or even AUS10 steel. It’s possibly the Chinese made “vg10” type of steel which has 0.8-1% carbon and it could take a better edge than those German x50 steels. For real imported AUS10 the lowest price they can sell a chef’s knife locally in China is about $20. No way they can sell an 8-knife set and shipping to US for only $78.
> 
> I’ve bought multiple $40 Chinese cleavers made with Chinese 9cr steel (0.9% carbon) for my families in China and they all love it. It comes a better edge than almost all Shibazi and all regular Zwilling knives (2 most popular brands in China) and it’s kinda thin behind the edge so all my family love it. I think the handmade Japanese knives are not overpriced compared with Chinese factory made knives because it’s an entirely different market (they could be overpriced compared to Western artisan knife makers though), but I agree German Zwilling /Wusthof knives COULD be overpriced for mass family market or commercial market. Even Victorinox, Chinese can probably make a similar preliminated knife using the exactly same Sandvik steel and handle and good HT and sells it for half the price like $15.
> 
> This knife series uses real prelaminated multilayer damascus AUS10 steel and the vendor sells it for about $50 for a 210 or $60 for a 240. It uses a nice wood handle and the knife is laser thin. Just want to show you the normal price for a nicely made Chinese knife using real Japanese steels. Still very cheap but not that cheap.
> View attachment 158586


Does that include shipping? That's not bad at all for aus10


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## Hz_zzzzzz

tostadas said:


> Does that include shipping? That's not bad at all for aus10


Yes. Shipping locally in China is very cheap. Like 2-3 dollar so they usually include it.


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## GeeWhizBang

Honerabi said:


> I should have known better. Received an email from this company, supposedly based in Portland, OR. They offered a nice looking, Japanese style, 8" chefs knife. The ad crows about VG10 steel layered with 66 layers of Damascus steel. The knife has a nice looking resing/wood handle, reinforced at both ends.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damascus Steel 8'' Chef Knife with Blue Resin Handle
> 
> 
> Our business is still shipping orders during this time. Impress your guests with this amazing, eye-catching knife! These 8'' Chef Knives are crafted from Japanese VG10 steel and layered with 33 layers of Damascus Steel on both sides of the blade. These layers are folded and forged, creating a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vertoku.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I received was nothing like what was advertised. I received a kirtsuke blade, 1/16 in thick steel plate, definitely not Damascus. There was a laser etch on the blade to fake it up. I have Damascus blades from Rajasthan, Shun, and Bob Cramer. The handle isn't anything like what was advertised, no bolster reinforcement, no endcap. It was some sort of molded plastic.
> 
> The ad was too good to be true. The site is loaded up with faked reviews. The only ones you can believe are the negatives. Not one verified purchase.
> 
> To return the item you are required to return it to Jinhua, China. Untracked and tracked USPS will run you 30% and 60% of the purchase price. I thought I could deal with this but it just isn't worth the aggravation. What a POS!



On this thread we've established that you can buy a set of 8 of these knives on Alibaba for $28 plus about $45 shipping.

I know this, because I did it. The set of knives I got this way were identical to the "Bokashi" or "Vertoku" branded knives except that they had no logo on them. 

Sure, they are NOT actually Damascus steel, nor Japanese made in any way other than perhaps style.

So now another company is arrogantly reselling them for a very bespoke price.









THE ESSENTIAL 6PC JAPANESE DAMASCUS STEEL KNIFE SET


The Essential 6-piece knife set has everything you need to dominate food prep. Each knife is forged from 67 layers of Japanese Damascus steel, giving you a harder blade (60 Rockwell Rating) and sharper edge for effortless slicing. Full-tang construction means superior durability and balance. The...




hexclad.com





They want hundreds of dollars for the same set I got for $90 with tax.

On top of this there is a huge irony in that the knives may be mass produced and don't have any actual bespoke features but they ARE extremely nice knives in the way that they actually work in the kitchen.

They come with a wicked sharp edge, are nicely balanced, and are extremely easy to resharpen.

My guess is that they are actually heavily chrome plated carbon steel, which explains the low price AND the good edge. You have to make sure never to wash them in the dishwasher or to soak them in the sink.

But if you are willing to baby them this way the set on Alibaba is such a screaming deal. Paying $500 for the same knives with slightly different handles, not so much.

That said, there are European knives in the same price range that may have more bespoke features, but the one thing NONE of them get right is actually being really sharp good knives as compared to these woefully underpriced ones.


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## GeeWhizBang

btbyrd said:


> I don't recommend six knives at that price.


It's almost like there is some need to spend impressive amounts of money in order to feel like you've bought good knives.

So several companies have jumped in with these cheap and cheerful knives that are way better for $90 shipped as a eight piece set than anything less than hundreds of dollars.

Bokash, Vertoku, and now Hexclad.

Hexclad is marking them up even more. 









THE ESSENTIAL 6PC JAPANESE DAMASCUS STEEL KNIFE SET


The Essential 6-piece knife set has everything you need to dominate food prep. Each knife is forged from 67 layers of Japanese Damascus steel, giving you a harder blade (60 Rockwell Rating) and sharper edge for effortless slicing. Full-tang construction means superior durability and balance. The...




hexclad.com





I just moved into a new shared living situation, and my Alibaba set of these knives are the ones people are using. The expensive Global, Henkels, are probably going to end up in a box instead.


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## btbyrd

Victorinox fibrox all the way.


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## Jovidah

Did you ever even touch an actual good and/or sharp knife? Because what I'm seeing is mostly someone who lacks a proper frame of reference.
Using knives like Global and Henckels as a benchmark to compare against is rather hollow considering most of us here don't have a high opinion of those knives either - and no, not because of the lower cost.

When I was new to knives I also thought my cheap made in China VG-10 stuff was the bees knees and came superduper sharp. A few years down the road I'd give the same knives a _very_ different evaluation. What most lay people consider 'sharp' is just a rough low grit belt finish that feels sharper than it really is.
And that's apart from the bigger problem plagueing a lot of the Chinese stuff; lack of consistency. The most well-known example is Misen (where knives came out with heat treatments vastly different from advertised), but I've also seen this with other Chinese knives, where even within the same line from the same brand there was a significant variation in both grind and heat treatment.


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## Jovidah

btbyrd said:


> Victorinox fibrox all the way.


Yep... if you had to make a lower cost recommendation personally I'd lean towards V'nox or one of the other brands mostly catering to professionals as well. Because they work...and you can buy a thousand of them and they'll all come out of the package the same way. Want to pay a bit more? Go for something like a Tojiro DP...


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## Naftoor

Ahhh my better half fell for one of these drop shippers a few years ago. She was particularly proud of it because of the handle. I’ve since moved it to her side of the knife drawer for her use.

No sharp corners on the knife, it’s as comfortable to hold as any Japanese knife. Height and profile don’t seem to be outliers. The handle is actually exceptionally well done, although not entirely to my taste with all the spacers. I’m not convinced it’s actually vg10, since I’ve noticed some patina forming after she’s used it a few times which is frankly bizarre. Not much distal taper to write home about. Balance is at the bolster. Geometry seemed fine but I don’t recall being wowed. It came sharp, edge retention is predictably awful. If I was buying gifts for Christmas I’d order 5-6 of them from Amazon sometime in July to give them time to arrive. Same price as a fibrox, but non-knife people will appreciate it more due to the pretty handle and damascusesque pattern.

First time taking a choil so hopefully it comes out ok.


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## GeeWhizBang

Jovidah said:


> Did you ever even touch an actual good and/or sharp knife? Because what I'm seeing is mostly someone who lacks a proper frame of reference.
> Using knives like Global and Henckels as a benchmark to compare against is rather hollow considering most of us here don't have a high opinion of those knives either - and no, not because of the lower cost.
> 
> When I was new to knives I also thought my cheap made in China VG-10 stuff was the bees knees and came superduper sharp. A few years down the road I'd give the same knives a _very_ different evaluation. What most lay people consider 'sharp' is just a rough low grit belt finish that feels sharper than it really is.
> And that's apart from the bigger problem plagueing a lot of the Chinese stuff; lack of consistency. The most well-known example is Misen (where knives came out with heat treatments vastly different from advertised), but I've also seen this with other Chinese knives, where even within the same line from the same brand there was a significant variation in both grind and heat treatment.


I would like to check out the Victorinox knives. My roommates vast packrat collection did include a lot of very expensive $100+ per blade knives, but only the ultra expensive Japanese ones he had were better than these cheap and cheerful ones.

As for consistency all three of these including the direct from Alibaba ones seem to be identical other than the logo / no logo


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## stringer

GeeWhizBang said:


> I would like to check out the Victorinox knives. My roommates vast packrat collection did include a lot of very expensive $100+ per blade knives, but only the ultra expensive Japanese ones he had were better than these cheap and cheerful ones.
> 
> As for consistency all three of these including the direct from Alibaba ones seem to be identical other than the logo / no logo



Very happy that you are happy with them. Gonna be a tough crowd to convince that these are a wise investment at any price. There are good cheap knives out there. Mercers and Dexter Sanisafe from a restaurant supply place would be way ahead of these in my book for performance. For pretty much the same supermarket clearance type of price. Or you can get a nice Chinese cleaver or a Kiwi for that price from an Asian grocery store. But if you step up just a little then there are decent Japanese knives (or Victorinox) available for 50-75$ a piece from reputable vendors that are light years ahead of these in terms of cutting performance, grind, ergonomics, and edge retention. Or eBay is full of vintage Japanese, European, American, and Chinese blades in good shape at 30-75$. You don't gain anything by buying one of these sets. Most home cooks don't use more than 2 or 3 knives. They pad out those sets with stuff you don't need and won't use. What they look like doesn't have anything to do with how they work. But I know those laser etched Chinese specials because I have coworkers who buy something like that instead of the Fibrox or Kanehide that I recommend and then a few months later they see the error their ways and the Chinese stuff disappears. You might have found the diamond in the rough. But it is statistically unlikely.

You are certainly free to sit here and continue to extol the praises of your Alibaba specials. That is your right. I hope that someday you check out some of the other threads on the forum. There's a vast repository of information here about why the community appreciates and tends to recommend the knives that we appreciate and recommend. But if you just want to flog dead horses then you are at the right place for that too.


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## blokey

Is it kind weird this guy only reply to this thread? I bought this kind knife before just for fun, the geomtry is hardly good, kind like what Naftoor posted above, the steel is actually ok for the price, edge retention are better than 3cr and 4cr garbage but that's it. And they don't really take a good edge like actual carbon steel knife, they edge crumbles if the angle is too low, not sure if that guy actually used good knives or just roommate's "good knife"

edit: I bought couple of these knives to test from Amazon, best of the case they are ok, thankfully they are easy to return. One thing agree tho is most German knives these days are awful, especially compare to vintage German stuff.


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## GeeWhizBang

These are pretty good knives for the money if you buy them directly from China. The problem is the vendors that import them, lie about their provenance. They aren't Damascus steel, Japanese, or just about anything in the ads.

They are layered stainless steel on top of carbon steel. This makes them wicked sharp, and very easy to resharpen and mostly rust-free, but you absolutely have to keep them out of the sink or the the dishwasher, even a few minute soak in the sink will corrode the carbon steel edge rather quickly. I have one of these that got washed in the dishwasher by roommates, and about two 0.25 millimeter chunks of the edge corroded off. They will eventually sharpen out of the blade, and aren't big enough to really cause a problem, but it still was pretty disconcerting.

The correct price for a set of eight of these knives is $12 bucks plus about $45 shipping. I've gotten a set that way. At that price they are cheaper than a really lousy KitchenAide knive and they are considerably better than that. You probably do have to resharpen them a bit more often than a $300 knife, but they do actually get very sharp.

But there are vendors selling them as actual Japanese Damascus steel knives for $300+ a set. They probably do fool a lot of people even at that price because they are so sharp. One of the companies is now Hex Clad, they even have Chef Ramsey talking about how good they are.

My current roommate has a set of rather expensive Japanese "Global" knives forged into a single piece of metal, very attractive and nice balance, but they don't take anywhere as good of an edge as these cheap but cheerful knives.


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## blokey

GeeWhizBang said:


> These are pretty good knives for the money if you buy them directly from China. The problem is the vendors that import them, lie about their provenance. They aren't Damascus steel, Japanese, or just about anything in the ads.
> 
> They are layered stainless steel on top of carbon steel. This makes them wicked sharp, and very easy to resharpen, but you absolutely have to keep them out of the sink or the the dishwasher, even a few minute soak in the sink will corrode the carbon steel edge rather quickly.
> The correct price for a set of eight of these knives is $12 bucks plus about $45 shipping. At that price they are cheaper than a really lousy KitchenAide knive and they are considerably better than that. You probably do have to resharpen them a bit more often than a $300 knife, but they do actually get very sharp.


I've been buying knives from Yangjiang alot of times, never heard of chromed carbon steel, most common stuff are x50Cr15MoV, 9Cr15Mov, 9Cr18Moc, 10Cr18CoMov, the patina you see is probably more result of bad heat treatment where chromium formed more carbide rather than goes into solution as intended.
I'm not sure why you talk about KitchenAid lot since no one buys them here and noone here would think they are anyone other than garbage. you don't need a 300 knife to easily outperform it tho, get a tojiro a-1 santoku for $30 or Fujiwara Kanefusa, they easily outperforms it.


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## GeeWhizBang

blokey said:


> I've been buying knives from Yangjiang alot of times, never heard of chromed carbon steel, most common stuff are x50Cr15MoV, 9Cr15Mov, 9Cr18Moc, 10Cr18CoMov, the patina you see is probably more result of bad heat treatment where chromium formed more carbide rather than goes into solution as intended.
> I'm not sure why you talk about KitchenAid lot since no one buys them here and noone here would think they are anyone other than garbage. you don't need a 300 knife to easily outperform it tho, get a tojiro a-1 santoku for $30 or Fujiwara Kanefusa, they easily outperforms it.


I would agree that nobody here buys KitchenAide knives but they are familiar with them nevertheless.
I'm pretty sure that what they have done is clad a central cheap core of carbon steel with stainless. They used to do things like plate carbon steel knives really heavily with chrome or nickel, and they would also take a really good edge, but in this case the chrome / nickel would eventually wear off and the body of the knive would get really rusty.
Based on the way that the edge corrodes so easily, that is my best guess why they are so cheap but nevertheless take such a great edge, but get effed up so easily if you ever soak them in water.


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## blokey

Ok, good for you then.


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## HumbleHomeCook

GeeWhizBang said:


> These are pretty good knives for the money if you buy them directly from China. The problem is the vendors that import them, lie about their provenance. They aren't Damascus steel, Japanese, or just about anything in the ads.
> 
> They are layered stainless steel on top of carbon steel. This makes them wicked sharp, and very easy to resharpen and mostly rust-free, but you absolutely have to keep them out of the sink or the the dishwasher, even a few minute soak in the sink will corrode the carbon steel edge rather quickly. I have one of these that got washed in the dishwasher by roommates, and about two 0.25 millimeter chunks of the edge corroded off. They will eventually sharpen out of the blade, and aren't big enough to really cause a problem, but it still was pretty disconcerting.
> 
> The correct price for a set of eight of these knives is $12 bucks plus about $45 shipping. I've gotten a set that way. At that price they are cheaper than a really lousy KitchenAide knive and they are considerably better than that. You probably do have to resharpen them a bit more often than a $300 knife, but they do actually get very sharp.
> 
> But there are vendors selling them as actual Japanese Damascus steel knives for $300+ a set. They probably do fool a lot of people even at that price because they are so sharp. One of the companies is now Hex Clad, they even have Chef Ramsey talking about how good they are.
> 
> My current roommate has a set of rather expensive Japanese "Global" knives forged into a single piece of metal, very attractive and nice balance, but they don't take anywhere as good of an edge as these cheap but cheerful knives.



I believe Global's are welded and they are notorious for being nasty to sharpen.


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## blokey

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I believe Global's are welded and they are notorious for being nasty to sharpen.


Global use something close to 440a, shouldnt be hard to sharpen. The problem is they all have a convex edge which is great out of the factory but a ***** to sharpen by yourself.


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## HumbleHomeCook

I'm really torn between the Drago and the Full tang with Finger Hole...

Hey @M1k3, Serbian Cleaver!









Our Knives







vertoku.com


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## blokey

BTW sorry for replying to this old thread in the first place and got that weird guy's attention again, I will just ignore him. Probably best for mod the close the thread. Not sure why he can comment only on this thread without making an introduction post.


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## M1k3

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I'm really torn between the Drago and the Full tang with Finger Hole...
> 
> Hey @M1k3, Serbian Cleaver!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Knives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vertoku.com


@Isasmedjan come on. Everyone is making them


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## GeeWhizBang

blokey said:


> BTW sorry for replying to this old thread in the first place and got that weird guy's attention again, I will just ignore him. Probably best for mod the close the thread. Not sure why he can comment only on this thread without making an introduction post.


I will eventually try one of the knives that people have recommended here. But I still think for $70 for an 8-piece set, these are really good knives. Sure, they don't meet the average standards for this group, because you expect them have fancy features like Damascus steel to make them look pretty. I don't care so much myself that the Damascus effect is fake, I just want a sharp knife, which these do just fine.

So what DO you recommend (including shipping) at the actual price point of these, which is $80 for a set?
And then again, what is recommended at the inflated prices vendors like Vertoku or Hex-clad are selling these for, which is around $250 for a set shipped?


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## bsfsu

Honerabi said:


> I filed a dispute with PayPal. They denied the claim because I didn't send it back (now to Manly, NSW, Oz) with tracking. Tracking doubled the price. They wouldn't accept the receipts. PayPal is anothe chicken-s*** company with no customer service. I wonder if Peter Thiel is still cowering in his bunker in New Zealand.


Pete got denied the consent to build his big hole so it's back to the architect for him!


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## btbyrd

Nobody here recommends buying a set of knives, let alone an $80 set. A standard recommendation is to get a chef's knife, bread knife, and paring knife since these will jointly cover 95% of your normal cutting duties. There have been plenty of recommendations of budget-friendly gyutos in this thread, including some from Victorinox, Tojiro DP, and Fujiwara Kanefusa. If you search the forum, you'll find many more. Add a cheap Mercer bread knife and Victorinox paring knife and you're done.

Also, nobody expects good knives to have "fancy features" like damascus cladding or flashy trash handles like the ones on your Vertoku knives. We just want a good steel with a good heat treatment and a good grind that cuts well. Vertoku's target market, by contrast, is impressed by things like fake lasered on "damascus" and brightly colored plastic/resinoid handles and other nonsense that has nothing to do with how the knife cuts, holds an edge, or its ease of sharpening.


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## blokey

GeeWhizBang said:


> I will eventually try one of the knives that people have recommended here. But I still think for $70 for an 8-piece set, these are really good knives. Sure, they don't meet the average standards for this group, because you expect them have fancy features like Damascus steel to make them look pretty. I don't care so much myself that the Damascus effect is fake, I just want a sharp knife, which these do just fine.
> 
> So what DO you recommend (including shipping) at the actual price point of these, which is $80 for a set?
> And then again, what is recommended at the inflated prices vendors like Vertoku or Hex-clad are selling these for, which is around $250 for a set shipped?


I don't care about Damascus, I don't have a single Damascus knife, steel, heat treatment and geometry matters more to me.
Stay away from set at any price point. At $80, Tojiro DP, Fujiwara Kanefusa, CCK cleaver.


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## BillHanna




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## daveb

WTFO?

Saw this thread getting some activity. Wondered why. Still wondering.


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## tostadas

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I'm really torn between the Drago and the Full tang with Finger Hole...
> 
> Hey @M1k3, Serbian Cleaver!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Knives
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vertoku.com


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## Jovidah

I hope he's at least getting paid to spew that drivel...


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## Honerabi

blokey said:


> Is it kind weird this guy only reply to this thread? I bought this kind knife before just for fun, the geomtry is hardly good, kind like what Naftoor posted above, the steel is actually ok for the price, edge retention are better than 3cr and 4cr garbage but that's it. And they don't really take a good edge like actual carbon steel knife, they edge crumbles if the angle is too low, not sure if that guy actually used good knives or just roommate's "good knife"
> 
> edit: I bought couple of these knives to test from Amazon, best of the case they are ok, thankfully they are easy to return. One thing agree tho is most German knives these days are awful, especially compare to vintage German stuff.


 Ultimately I received a refund from Vertoku. Although they ship from a US address, they make you return it to China. Costs a lot more. I subsequently bought some authentic knives with real Damascus, and Aogami #2 blue steel. A bit of a challenge to sharpen, but I'm getting better at it. 
Same story across the board: the old stuff is better by far. IMHO the German cutlery is heftier, especially the thickness at the base, plus they sport a bolster. I keep catching my finger on the 90 degree turn in the blade on the Japanese style. Lots of little nicks on my forefinger!


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## daveb

How many trolls are in this thread???


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## Bico Doce

This bread knife is pretty dope. Thinking about pulling the trigger. Just need some convincing…


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## tostadas

Bico Doce said:


> This bread knife is pretty dope. Thinking about pulling the trigger. Just need some convincing…
> 
> View attachment 207486


It looks like a knife. It also comes in a box that's probably meant for a knife, or similarly shaped object. They even made up a price and crossed it out. Just give me your credit card number and I'll do it for you.


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## blokey

Bico Doce said:


> This bread knife is pretty dope. Thinking about pulling the trigger. Just need some convincing…
> 
> View attachment 207486


Talking about bread knife, Gesshin is a sleeper, 250mm of Aus-8 is more than enough to last a lifetime








Gesshin 250mm Bread Knife


Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin 250mm Bread Knife is an excellent choice for cutting a wide range of breads. The blade is nice and thin and aggressively serrated to work well with everything from soft milk breads to hard, crusty Italian breads. The thinness is great...




www.japaneseknifeimports.com


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## Bico Doce

blokey said:


> Talking about bread knife, Gesshin is a sleeper, 250mm of Aus-8 is more than enough to last a lifetime
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gesshin 250mm Bread Knife
> 
> 
> Product Description Detailed Specs Measurements The Gesshin 250mm Bread Knife is an excellent choice for cutting a wide range of breads. The blade is nice and thin and aggressively serrated to work well with everything from soft milk breads to hard, crusty Italian breads. The thinness is great...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.japaneseknifeimports.com


I don’t trust it because the price isn’t crossed out with a lower price right next to it. Could be a scam


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## M1k3

Bico Doce said:


> I don’t trust it because the price isn’t crossed out with a lower price right next to it. Could be a scam


@JBroida, he has a point. Maybe mark it up $400, then discount it?


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## Bico Doce

M1k3 said:


> @JBroida, he has a point. Maybe mark it up $400, then discount it?


C’mon man, don’t tag Jon


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