# Reviews and thoughts on a whole bunch of stones/stone lines



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 18, 2021)

Hey All,

Maybe it's the coffee, maybe it's the cold weather and a lack of stuff to do, maybe I just want to type up something helpful? I don't know. Regardless, I thought it might be nice to put together a huge post with my thoughts on a lot of stones/stone lines based upon my experiences with them over time. I've used an enourmous amount of stuff over the years and figured it might be nice to put it all together in one place kinda like the diamond thread. I fully expect people to disagree on some of this, that's cool, this is just one caffeine and booze (It's Saturday, I drink when I want to drink and today that's with breakfast) fueled mans thoughts on all this after a decade or more (can't remember how long I've been in this but a while) eye balls deep in it. Disagree or agree as you will, I talk in a lot of generalities here but it helps make more sense of various lines and helps to better align where things match up against each other. I'm purpsosely leaving diamonds, vitrified diamonds, CBN and other stuff like that out of this, this is strictly a waterstone post, you want diamond info? Go check out my other review post on all that stuff. Also, my writing here is mostly focused on splash and go because that is more my focus overall. Just me and what I like/find most convenient.

Okay enough preface, lets dive in

*Shapton Pro/Kuromaku*
I'm a big fan of Shapton stuff, the pricing you can find on the Pro/Kuromaku like especially on Amazon or when MTC runs a sale really is second to none in terms of how much stone you get for the money and how well they work. I've used just about every stone from this lineup at one time or another minus the 30k since I've never found a need for one. These are a cornerstone of my sharpening collection and if you want no fuss, fast cutting stones that work well across the board it's these. Recently started fixing my TF Nashiji petty that had become a battle axe and I would have hated the process a whole lot more if I didn't have these. The Pro 120 eats annoying stainless cladding like it's nothing. You can follow up with the 320 and then jump to the 1k and it'll keep cleaning up the scratches well. The really coarse stuff I just let dish and just try to grind it down evenly while the medium and fine ones I keep nice and flat. Lap off the crust that comes on these and you are good to go. They don't feel great, they don't create good contrast, they more polish than anything else but they work incredibly well and are about as no-nonsense as this stuff gets. Shapton Pro's will always have a special place in my crusty heart because they just work and if something is annoying me like some stainless cladding or some garbage Target Brand knife I bust out the 120 or the 320 and tear it apart and be done with it if my diamonds aren't near by. These really are all you need if you don't care about finish or feeling and just need work to get done. Good stones all around and tend to leave very "clean" edges if you angle control is good and you keep them flat and slurry-free. Clean in terms of test cuts on newspaper and other papers. Don't get me wrong, you can do that on any stones, I just find I have an easier time doing on stuff like these and the Shapton Glass. Some of my cleanest garbage steel edges (not counting diamonds) have come from the 320 and then just stropping on bare leather, felt or cardboard. Really the strop isn't even needed, gotten clean waxy magazine s shapes from just this stone and deburring on the stone with minimal effect on even the most terrible of Walmart brand junk. Shaptons overall just don't care, nice steel? fine! mediocre but okay steel? fine! Garbage from the bargain bin? Fine! Shapton don't care, shapton just cuts and does work.

*Shapton Glass*
These tend to fall in much of the same category for me as the Pro although I tend to prefer the 500 grit and up on these. The lower grit kinda suck, like the 220 clogs and glazes too fast and they don't release enough grit to really be worth it. Stick to the Pro line for the lower grits. The Glass stones are smaller than the Pro and tend to cost more so from a value perspective they are worse and for most folks you're better off just getting the Pro line. That said, these cut fast as well, have give or take the same amount of feeling, polish more than contrast and dish super slowly. Great stones all around and I like to compliment my Pro's with a few higher grit Glass stones like the 2k and 4k, also the 16k is a wonderful deburring/stropping stone. Really all of these once you hit 500 grit are excellent for what they are, just relatively more expensive than the Pro stuff. I've found that they wear slower than the Pro but not 1/2 as slow and given that you get 1/2 as much stone you come out behind overall. That said, the grit on these seems super consistent as you move up the grits and makes for great razor progressions as well as knife stuff. I like these a lot, really do, just not quite as much as the pro's given that the pro's are a better deal and the whole box and holder in one that you get with the pro's is pretty great for work stuff or traveling to family's places etc...

*Nanohone*
I've owned the entire line up of these and to me they are a better Shapton stone in every regard....except price. Like if you had unlimited budget and didn't care about the $$ then yeah these are better than Shapton in every concievable way in my book. That said, I sharpen a lot, I buy a lot of stuff, I sell a lot, I give a lot away to friends, family and co workers and these are just a bit more than I like $$ wise given that Shapton gets you 95% of the way there for noticeable less especially from Amazon or MTC sales. These have better feel than Shapton's, a slightly softer feel to them if you will, all of them are white which is great for seeing how much slurry you are making/metal coming off, they polish super well (a progression of these ending in 10k gets you a pretty perfect mirror), cut fast, are splash and go, work on pretty much whatever steel blah blah blah. Basically the same as the Shapton stuff but feel better and have cool base plates....and they cost you more. They do also seem to have extremely consistent and even grit progressions so going from 200 grit to 400 grit to 1000 grit etc.. on up seems to perfectly remove/clean up the previous scratch pattern with no stray extra deep scratches or other weird stuff like that. That is a large part of how I got such clean mirror polishes off this, did it on pocket knives just for fun, don't need it for any reason on kitchen knives but fun for my EDC to show off...because I'm vain, whatever. Anyways these are super high quality with the price tag and performance to match, for me it's just not worth the extra $$ but overall they are excellent.

*Chosera*
So these are the older king of the hill if you will. For a long time these were pretty much the hottest thing and they were/are still well loved. I've owned a number of these over the years, worn through some, lost at least 1 to cracking and just generally used the heck out of these. They are good for everything but not the best at anything. Shapton cuts faster, Morihei is better for contrast, King feels better etc... There isn't one category I would consider these the absolute best at, they just do everything well. So, you want a jack of all trades that is nice at everything? These, these are that for a reasonable price as long as you avoid the 5k and up, those are stupidly priced. That said, for me they aren't worth it. Why? Because I'd rather have other more specific things that do certain jobs better. I'm spoiled, what can I say? Maybe I'm dumping on these too much? I definitely am but I'm opinionated and these are good but not great. To me, not worth buying, just get something more specific for what you need or want, stop compromising. Okay negatives out of the way, they wear slow, cut fast, work on whatever blah blah blah all the usual stuff, oh they also tend to spiderweb crack if you dry em too fast. That's annoying too and I problem I haven't had with any other stone line on this list, minus a JNS Red Aoto Synth but that's another story and probably my fault. Anyway, these are fine and serviceable in every way, just that there is better stuff for specific reasons out there. These also don't feel too nice or are as fast as I would like on garbage steel, they are best on nicer knives but are surpassed on those too by stuff like the Sigma or Morihei and Shapton does garbage better too so again...a weird middle ground.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 18, 2021)

*Sigma Select II Power Ultra Drive Megaton Hammer of Doom*
Okay I kid a bit on the naming of this one, but really the naming on these gets a little nonsense trying to figure out which line is which and which line each stone is from etc.... These are a criminally underappreciated gem in my book. Aggressively almost angry cutting speed, like they hate your knife and steel and want to eat it. Especially true if you soak em. The coloring is a bit annoying because on the darker ones like the 1k hard to see metal removal rate but at the same time you can hear and feel it ripping your knife apart so you know whats up. Dish a bit faster than others especially when soaking a bit except the 1k which is a brick. Contrast is good as is feeling but not the best at either of these. Pick these any day over the Chosera stuff, like they are cheaper when MTC runs a sale on stones, you get a ton of stone for your money and they eat metal all day. Really good stones and could happily live with a set of these and call it good and not own other stuff since again they do everything pretty okay and I like em more than Chosera. Wish they had more exposure and more retailers in the USA but eh, is what it is. Bottom line is they are good and I like em and they should get more love then they do. They also work great on both nice steel and on junk and even plow through zdp189 with no real issue, especially the 1k, the 1k would grind through a steel beam if you had enough time. The 1k don't care, the 1k hates your knife and your steel and thinks there should be less of it...by eating it.

*Morihei*
Freaking great, you want contrast? You want bitey edges beyond belief? You have carbon steel or iron cladding? You like to turn the lights down low and sharpen alone? You got extra money laying around? These, buy these, just do it. They are wonderful, full stop. All the usual, cuts fast, slow-ish to dish (although easier to dish than Shapton), feel nice especially after a soak (tried it just because I can) with the added bonus of incredibly bitey edges and wonderful polish. I've gotten the most consistent and best contrast out of these of any splash and go synthetic I've ever tried. I haven't gotten to use Jon's (JKI) special kasumi/contrast stone because it's been out of stock so long and can't find one but otherwise these are tops no question. 500-1k-4k-9k is stupid good for synthetics for contrast and creating that pretty bevel. I own all of these and will probably get extras for Christmas because good hearted family members know I like them but don't know I bought them all already. They are expensive though, like really expensive and are pretty much never on sale either, so you are gonna bite that bullet and like it price wise on these....but holy crap is it worth it. To me at least. Only thing that sucks is the 500 grit one is really dark, like kinda hard to see how much metal is coming off and that's annoying but the rest of them are lighter in color so it's fine. Also these have the added bonus of a 9k that actually leaves a usable edge for a while. Sharpened my TF Petty on the 9k Karasu, beat the snot out of it on a Bamboo board at the inlaws for a full day and it would still pop hairs. Some of that is TF's heat treat and some of that is the 9k Karasu actually leaving an edge that still has tooth and is still usable unlike a lot of other really high end finishers that are more for deburring, light stropping or secondary bevel work. Don't get me wrong, you can do all that on this one too but you can also actually edge sharpen good steel on it and get a great edge that isn't useless for real kitchen work. Anyways, I like these, a lot, the price sucks but ask for them as gifts or something. Also, these aren't the best with garbage steel knives, garbage stainless cladding or stuff like that. These are for nice knives and for someone that knows what they want and what they are doing. Aka, don't take these to the inlaws, leave that to Shapton, same with eating up gummy garbage stainless, that's a Shapton job, the Morihei's are class through and through, don't feed them junk. I mean you can but why? 

*JNS*
Not too much I really want to say about these. Overall they are fine, like they cut fast, dish super slowly, pretty solid value overall but they are just kinda "meh". Like I get why they exist but also there is better stuff out there for the same price roughly, just skip these. Shaptons cut fast just as fast if not faster especially at low grit and are way cheaper and more convenient with the boxes too. Morihei is better feeling and contrast. Sigma is more of an all around stone that also eat any reasonable steel you throw at it. They are just in a weird Chosera like space for me that I don't feel is needed. Meh I'm being too harsh, these are fine, really they are fine, buy them if you want and if you feel they will fit some specific niche for you but there is just a better more specialized tool for everything they do. That said, you buying some stuff from JNS and need to add a stone on to get free shipping? Fine, grab the 1k or something since it does cut really fast and that's nice. Again I get why they exist and they are overall totally fine and serviceable stones, just more purposeful stuff exists that is better to this grumpy kitchen bum. Caffeine withdrawal is kicking in here, probably why I'm getting cranky. 

*Suehiro Debado SNE*
Fine again, dish a bit fast for my taste, box and stand combo thing is nice but takes up more space than Shapton and doesn't nest as nicely. More expensive than Shapton but feel a bit better. Cut well, feel nice, another middling stone in my book. I was finding that I got the occasional weird extra deep and bright scratch from these which I didn't like especially when you have stuff like Nanohone and Morihei that are so consistent in finish/polish/contrast respectively. Not sure exactly whats up with that but there's better stones out there that don't leave stray deep scratches and leave much better behaved scratch patterns overall. Buy these if you want but they suffer from the same middling status to me. Pretty okay at everything but not a fan of the price for what you get or the scratch pattern. 

*JKI*
This is a tough one because there really are too many options to say there is one like cohesive line so to speak. I've used a bunch of stuff from JKI and liked it all, really it's all good stuff but there are so many options, stone styles, grits etc... that it's really better to just call Jon or email him and explain what you want. I see Jon's stuff as more of a pick and choose what you want specifically vs. a more set in stone line up like Chosera or Nanohone or something like that. It's better to just cherry pick exactly what you want or exactly what niche you are looking to fill. That's been my experience at least. It's all really really good stuff, like I can't say anything bad about it aside from it's a little pricey but again, it's great at what it does, you just gotta pick out exactly what you want best or your priorities are to pick the best things for that. I guess this one is kind of a non-answer. Sorry, this post isn't really as well set up for something like JKI that has as many options as they do all under the Gesshin stone label. Just take it from me, it's all really good but talk to Jon, should I say it again? Just talk to Jon about what you want and he'll fix you up, it's better than me making a generic statement that may only apply to like half of the Gesshin stones or whatever. Anyways, these are nice.

*Bottom Line*
Stones, grinding metal on a synthetic rock, your knife is smaller, thinner, shorter now. Your sink is probably a bit of a mess too now. Whatever, just get some rocks and rub some metal on them. Jokes aside, we got a lot of good stones out there, this is one random dudes thoughts, take it for whatever it is worth to you. I need another breakfast beer. It's still before noon here. Have a good one all and feel free to discuss this, debate it, misinterpret it, misquote it, or do whatever you do with it. 

Also, I'm not proofreading this, too long, there are mistakes in spelling and grammar, oh well.


----------



## daveb (Dec 18, 2021)

Nice write up. 

My experience is similar, like the Shaptons a lot for s&g. I prefer the SG for the sub 500 stones though - the SP220 feels like concrete to me while the SG220 feels more responsive and I think does a better job.

I also wanted to find the love with JNS s&g but could only find some like.

I've tried more than a few Gesshins and IMHO Jon's best are his G2K, G4K and G6K soakers. They're my favorite stones for the good knives.

Damnit man, now you've got me wanting to try Nanahone and Morihei.


----------



## ModRQC (Dec 18, 2021)

Super nice of you to take the time! For the lines/stones I know, I feel the writeup is pretty spot on. 

SPs are good stones, NPs are always nice but I somehow ended up selling all I tried, Morihei can't talk much but for the 4K but I concur that I like it better soaked. Sigma only have the 240 but again concur it's as efficient and hungry and versatile as I could ever wish such a coarse stone to be - a weird fact being that its scratches are quite behaved and there's some kind of clad darkening-faint contrast starting to happen on top of it being exceedingly efficient. In my book better sealed and soaked about 20 minutes. Nanohone only have the 200, yellowish white color but I got your drift, is pretty well behaved for grits, like you say a bit softer and release more grits than SPs/SGs - meaning muddier. Being only the coarsest I may be overstating said softness and muddiness. I like to soak it like 10 minutes too.

Speaking of SGs I indeed only tried 500, 4K and 6K. 4K and 6K are quite linearly working together, and I can sort of guess how also linear the 1K and 3K would be from my 500. I call them the technical stones. All around white-ish is best for seeing what's happening. They "talk" a lot, to me frankly more than SPs do: more tactility, more distinguished aural feedback, and you really SEE what's happening there. I'd like to try the 1K - I mean I don't think it's gonna be better than my SP1K but I find using the 1K stone of a line you've tried a couple other grits greatly help "locking in" the general purpose and differentiations of the others around it.

I'll soon do a post about basic Cerax - no gems and I did not try ALL (weird lineup New/Old Cerax and recouping Rika/Ouka and whatnot) but impressive for the money keeping 5K below. If you tried a few will appreciate your feedback then.

Have to start a thinning/core mirror polish project on HAP 40. If between those two, would you rather use Sigma 240 or Nanohone 200?

I'm pretty sure I'll be starting on Sigma.


----------



## ModRQC (Dec 18, 2021)

daveb said:


> Nice write up.
> 
> My experience is similar, like the Shaptons a lot for s&g. I prefer the SG for the sub 500 stones though - the SP220 feels like concrete to me while the SG220 feels more responsive and I think does a better job.
> 
> ...



It's weird I was all in to start the HAP40 project tonight and reading this instead fuels my desire to finish some stones writeup I've got lazingly going on. 

Just can tell you that the Morihei 4K feels more silky than NP3K but you can at once feel it work its way. It's real fast, which I find surprising since the edge it leaves I would almost peg 5K. Good solid bite to it, but it's just a much finer edge than NP3K or SG4K.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 18, 2021)

Glad you all are liking the post! Appreciate that you folks find it useful and helpful and are getting good info from it. Answers to folks below, thanks!



daveb said:


> Nice write up.
> 
> My experience is similar, like the Shaptons a lot for s&g. I prefer the SG for the sub 500 stones though - the SP220 feels like concrete to me while the SG220 feels more responsive and I think does a better job.
> 
> ...



The Shapton Pro 220 was a stone I tried a while ago when I was a lot less skilled then I am now. I thought it wasn't good then and had better success with the 120 and 320 Pro's but it very well could have been me that was the problem. I have limited experience with the SG220 just that it tended to gum up on stainless cladding but, I'm also a gorilla when I thin so something like the Shapton Pro 120 works better for me because it just keeps wearing down and makes an "angry metal paste" that just keeps cutting. That said, under more moderate use the SG220 might very well be a better stone in that range, I'm just one ham fisted animal and for me the shedding grit rate of the 120 and 320 works better.

Like that about the the Gesshin stuff, someday I'll get more into soakers and give those a shot. The g2k is a classic and the g4k seems to be super well liked too. Don't know too much about the G6k but my brief experience with the older splash and go G6k was great so I expect the soaker to be excellent too. 

Yeah you owe it to yourself to try the Nanohone and Morihei sometime. If you just want to try one or two of them, the Nanohone 400-1k gives you a good idea of what they are like or just skip the 1k and go 400-3k, that jump is totally fine too. The 3k is one of my favorites in that line up along with the 200 and 400. Morihei, just try any of them, all are solid, maybe skip the 500 just cause the color is a little frustrating but it's still an excellent stone. The 6k is outstanding too for a fine grit stone and leaves an almost mirror to mirror on core steel if you work it. 



ModRQC said:


> Super nice of you to take the time! For the lines/stones I know, I feel the writeup is pretty spot on.
> 
> SPs are good stones, NPs are always nice but I somehow ended up selling all I tried, Morihei can't talk much but for the 4K but I concur that I like it better soaked. Sigma only have the 240 but again concur it's as efficient and hungry and versatile as I could ever wish such a coarse stone to be - a weird fact being that its scratches are quite behaved and there's some kind of clad darkening-faint contrast starting to happen on top of it being exceedingly efficient. In my book better sealed and soaked about 20 minutes. Nanohone only have the 200, yellowish white color but I got your drift, is pretty well behaved for grits, like you say a bit softer and release more grits than SPs/SGs - meaning muddier. Being only the coarsest I may be overstating said softness and muddiness. I like to soak it like 10 minutes too.
> 
> ...



I think you are pretty on the money about the Nanohone, they are more soft and muddy than the Shapton stuff and that helps the feeling of them. The 200 melts away but also melts away steel so it's a toss up to me on that one, there's a reason they make a crazy 4x thick one. 

The SG line does a great job of letting you know what is going on given how hard and dish resistant they are. The color especially helps with that and seeing black inky swarf come off helps you judge stuff, agree on that.

Sadly can't say much about the Cerax line, I tended to avoid them with them being soakers and all. My King Hyper's have been my go to soakers for a long time and don't see that changing too much given how much I love those.

Probably splitting hairs Sigma 240 vs Nanohone 200 but I would pick the Sigma too. I think it will hold up better and the Sigma stuff cuts so aggressively and well that if you really want to do work thinning I would lean toward Sigma over anything else I've talked about here. Really, if you want metal gone it's Sigma or the really low grit Shapton stuff like the 120 and 320 but since you already have the Sigma go Sigma.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 18, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> It's weird I was all in to start the HAP40 project tonight and reading this instead fuels my desire to finish some stones writeup I've got lazingly going on.
> 
> Just can tell you that the Morihei 4K feels more silky than NP3K but you can at once feel it work its way. It's real fast, which I find surprising since the edge it leaves I would almost peg 5K. Good solid bite to it, but it's just a much finer edge than NP3K or SG4K.



Agree on the Morihei 4k, it's a wonderful stone and really you could stop on it too as a finisher. The Morihei have a very weird but awesome ability to leave very fine and high grit edges that still have gobs of bite and are still really good for all around kitchen use. I've never had a problem "over polishing" with them in the sense of loosing all the bite or having a too slippery edge so to speak unless I botched my angle control really bad and that's my fault then, not the stones. The Morihei 4k also feels even softer and more smooth after a soak as well.


----------



## ModRQC (Dec 18, 2021)

Nanohone 200 soaked feels quite splendid. Used S&G with a copious rinse up before keeps it slower to generate the mud, feels harsher though. Good compromise depending how much control I want on the job, but it dishes somewhat more when used S&G. I get the sandier, poorer rate of too much abrasives shed for too much water management to avoid it that you get when "undersoaking" most Cerax. Recognized it instantly. Soaking it a bit is probably better for preservation but on a bevel with no sharp Shinogi or otherwise defining geometry, the muddier aspect will scratch above where you'd want and could get out of using it S&G.


----------



## daniel_il (Dec 18, 2021)

as always very accurate. I don't have any experience with morihei but look like i cant avoid those stones. 

my most used combo is the chosera 800+3k. i think the 800 is great, good feedback, works fast on everything and sometimes i even finish on it. the 3k chosera i use mainly for stropping and touch ups.

for the cheap stainless i mainly use SP, i really like their effectiveness. the 1k+2k is a combo that i use a lot and the 120 is a gem for heavy thinning. they are cheap, fast and very consist.
from the glass line I've tried the 220,320,500,2000. the 500 is the best out of this line and pair up nice with the 2K. the 220 is good coarse stone but i prefer something coarser and faster in this ultra low grit range. the 320 is fast cutting but glazing fast as well. the SG2K is very good but i like SP2K better and its cheaper. i mainly use the SG when travelling due to their compact size

sometimes i pull out the suehiro soakers. the 320,1000, rika5K all preforming good and pretty fast but the mud and mess they cause in my kitchen doesn't worth it, so i try to avoid them. they are soft and providing good feedback but also need to get flatten very often.
from the debado line i have the 200, its huge size is very handy for thinning. it cuts fast but sometimes leaves deep scratches that very hard to remove...maybe should i try the sigma240?


----------



## AT5760 (Dec 18, 2021)

Nice summary of stone lines. What’s your favorite in the 300-500 range?


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 19, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Nanohone 200 soaked feels quite splendid. Used S&G with a copious rinse up before keeps it slower to generate the mud, feels harsher though. Good compromise depending how much control I want on the job, but it dishes somewhat more when used S&G. I get the sandier, poorer rate of too much abrasives shed for too much water management to avoid it that you get when "undersoaking" most Cerax. Recognized it instantly. Soaking it a bit is probably better for preservation but on a bevel with no sharp Shinogi or otherwise defining geometry, the muddier aspect will scratch above where you'd want and could get out of using it S&G.


Agree with this. The Nanohone actually can be soaked for a short bit and it makes them even better. The lower grits especially like the 200, 400 and 1k.




daniel_il said:


> as always very accurate. I don't have any experience with morihei but look like i cant avoid those stones.
> 
> my most used combo is the chosera 800+3k. i think the 800 is great, good feedback, works fast on everything and sometimes i even finish on it. the 3k chosera i use mainly for stropping and touch ups.
> 
> ...


good impressions too! Yup I like your take on these as well. For a long time the Chosera 800 to 3k was my go to and at the time I loved it. I would rank it much higher if stuff like Morihei and Sigma didn’t exist which to be fair even a few years ago they didn’t in the US market. Yeah give the Sigma a shot, it’s a monster too. I like the SP120 more for eating through metal but the Sigma is preferred over the Suehiro.




AT5760 said:


> Nice summary of stone lines. What’s your favorite in the 300-500 range?


Tough question. Depends what I’m doing. If it’s heavy metal removal or junk knives it’s Shapton Pro 120-320 if I can pick too because you really need the 120 heavy metal removal and then the 320 cleans up the scratches and helps even it out. If it’s knives I care for and are nice, Morihei 500 or Sigma 400. The Nanohone 200 and 400 are excellent too but fit kinda in the middle of the stuff I discussed ie. they remove a lot of metal but I don’t enjoy them quite like the Morihei or Sigma on nice stuff and since Shapton is cheaper then those for bulk metal removal. Hope that helps


----------



## cotedupy (Dec 19, 2021)

Great stuff, cheers!

I've only used the SSII 1k but was a big fan. Weird stone though... do you know what they're made out of? Quite unlike anything else I know.


----------



## KingShapton (Dec 19, 2021)

SSii 1k is made of sintered sic if I remember correctly


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 19, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Great stuff, cheers!
> 
> I've only used the SSII 1k but was a big fan. Weird stone though... do you know what they're made out of? Quite unlike anything else I know.



glad to hear you like it! I mean I would guess the residual Adamantium after making Wolverines claws? Potentially some sort of space dust from the moons of Jupiter?

all jokes aside yeah some sort of sic sounds about right. Kinda reminds me a little of the rougher grit Gritomatic sic sharpening stones but better feeling than those and better quality. But really I have no actual information to know for sure what it is made of


----------



## daniel_il (Dec 19, 2021)

SolidSnake03 said:


> good impressions too! Yup I like your take on these as well. For a long time the Chosera 800 to 3k was my go to and at the time I loved it. I would rank it much higher if stuff like Morihei and Sigma didn’t exist which to be fair even a few years ago they didn’t in the US market. Yeah give the Sigma a shot, it’s a monster too. I like the SP120 more for eating through metal but the Sigma is preferred over the Suehiro.



The chosera is good all around and for me its does feel nicer from stuff like SP. my main criticism its the 3k tends to overly polish the edge, i prefer a little more bite.

any thoughts on sigma power 2k as a finisher? or maybe power select 3k..


----------



## tcmx3 (Dec 19, 2021)

I really like the feeling of the chosera/naniwa pro stuff, too.

I will admit the Morihei stuff looks cool but they dont have that many stones and availability isnt that widespread. I would probably not choose a Shapton Pro stone over a Cho stone although I do have the SP2000 which is a really nice stone for the money. I am... I do not really like the 120. It's useful but. 220 and 500 I prefer glass personally.

In the end I think it's best to mix and match. For me this means SG and Chosera synths mostly, with some other brands around that I am not as fond of (King doesnt do it for me, for example). 

and fwiw I despise my JNS 1000. I dont know what the deal is but this is the absolute most insanely deep scratching 1k I have polished with. Cuts fast and is hard so I use it for edges sometimes though.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 19, 2021)

For a little more bite I would agree that the Sigma Power Select ii 3k would give you more bite. I haven't actually used the 2k from this line up, it wasn't listed on MTC Kitchen so I never bought one. That said, the 3k is a perfectly fine place to stop and still leaves a lot of bite. All the Sigma stuff seems to leave pretty good bite, not as much as I'm getting off Morihei but more than enough bite for anyone's general use in my book.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 19, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> I really like the feeling of the chosera/naniwa pro stuff, too.
> 
> I will admit the Morihei stuff looks cool but they dont have that many stones and availability isnt that widespread. I would probably not choose a Shapton Pro stone over a Cho stone although I do have the SP2000 which is a really nice stone for the money. I am... I do not really like the 120. It's useful but. 220 and 500 I prefer glass personally.
> 
> ...



The Morihei line actually has a decent enough selection of stones but you have to look outside the USA for more of them which does make it a bit of a pain and even then there aren't as many as say Shapton in terms of grit choices so overall I agree . They have a 500, 1000, 3000, 4000, 6000, 8000, 9000 Karasu and a 12000. I believe the 3000, 8000, and 12000 you can get from pro tooling in AUS? If you want to add onto what you can get in the USA from Carbon.

Glass vs. Pro and in what grit range does seem to be a personal preference thing for sure. I'm a gorilla when I thin so I dig the 120 but if you don't really hammer that stone it isn't as great in my book. Like you gotta push that stone, like harder than you think you should and then it just starts rip off pieces of knife which helps. I think I clog the Glass 220 fast because I am pushing way too hard? Not sure, I'm just one grumpy dude that likes to get work done fast when it comes to that type of stuff.

Mixing and matching overall really does allow for way more flexibility and if one is willing to try a lot of stuff it's arguable better I agree. That said, I do also like the idea of having a whole set of one thing so that also appears to a weird collector aspect of my brain.

Yeah the JNS 1k can scratch really deeply, I don't want to bag on the JNS stuff even more than I already did but yeah I find that to be true about it too. Especially on stainless cladding it tended to gouge it really good.


----------



## Rangen (Dec 19, 2021)

It's not you. The SG 220 glazes really easily. I yield to no one in my admiration of the Shapton Glass line at 500 and above, but the 220 needs some caveats. It's a great stone for taking off metal, while not leaving yourself hideous problems getting the scratches out, but you'll want your deglazing solution within arm's reach.


----------



## tcmx3 (Dec 19, 2021)

SolidSnake03 said:


> The Morihei line actually has a decent enough selection of stones but you have to look outside the USA for more of them which does make it a bit of a pain and even then there aren't as many as say Shapton in terms of grit choices so overall I agree . They have a 500, 1000, 3000, 4000, 6000, 8000, 9000 Karasu and a 12000. I believe the 3000, 8000, and 12000 you can get from pro tooling in AUS? If you want to add onto what you can get in the USA from Carbon.
> 
> Glass vs. Pro and in what grit range does seem to be a personal preference thing for sure. I'm a gorilla when I thin so I dig the 120 but if you don't really hammer that stone it isn't as great in my book. Like you gotta push that stone, like harder than you think you should and then it just starts rip off pieces of knife which helps. I think I clog the Glass 220 fast because I am pushing way too hard? Not sure, I'm just one grumpy dude that likes to get work done fast when it comes to that type of stuff.
> 
> ...



ah, because of RSI in my wrists I cant really be a gorilla. for really course work, the kasfly has been great for me since sandpaper doesnt really require as much force.

that said I have ordered a debado 180, uh LD-21nd? at the suggestion of Milan Gravier in one of his videos and Im excited to see what that stone is like.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 19, 2021)

Rangen said:


> It's not you. The SG 220 glazes really easily. I yield to no one in my admiration of the Shapton Glass line at 500 and above, but the 220 needs some caveats. It's a great stone for taking off metal, while not leaving yourself hideous problems getting the scratches out, but you'll want your deglazing solution within arm's reach.



yeah the one I have I tend to hit it with my Atoma 140 frequently to refresh the surface/clean out the metal gunk haha.




tcmx3 said:


> ah, because of RSI in my wrists I cant really be a gorilla. for really course work, the kasfly has been great for me since sandpaper doesnt really require as much force.
> 
> that said I have ordered a debado 180, uh LD-21nd? at the suggestion of Milan Gravier in one of his videos and Im excited to see what that stone is like.


yeah sandpaper is a smart choice on that as well. Probably really quickly takes metal off and harder pressure doesn’t help as much. Never tried the LD line actually. Everything I tried from them is the SNE stuff. Definitely let us know what you think of it once you get time with it


----------



## daniel_il (Dec 19, 2021)

SolidSnake03 said:


> For a little more bite I would agree that the Sigma Power Select ii 3k would give you more bite. I haven't actually used the 2k from this line up, it wasn't listed on MTC Kitchen so I never bought one. That said, the 3k is a perfectly fine place to stop and still leaves a lot of bite. All the Sigma stuff seems to leave pretty good bite, not as much as I'm getting off Morihei but more than enough bite for anyone's general use in my book.



For what is worth, I think the sigma power 2k(soaking stone) is also sold as kohetsu 2k.
if you say the morihei 4K leaves more bite than the chosera 3k, it could be the one.



SolidSnake03 said:


> Glass vs. Pro and in what grit range does seem to be a personal preference thing for sure. I'm a gorilla when I thin so I dig the 120 but if you don't really hammer that stone it isn't as great in my book. Like you gotta push that stone, like harder than you think you should and then it just starts rip off pieces of knife which helps. I think I clog the Glass 220 fast because I am pushing way too hard? Not sure, I'm just one grumpy dude that likes to get work done fast when it comes to that type of stuff.



i put a lot of pressure when thinning, the sg seems to glaze very fast. the 320 works well when i use it for regular sharpening. when i used it for thinning with heavy pressure its lose the cutting power in seconds.


----------



## M1k3 (Dec 20, 2021)

Sigma Power 240 and 1k are SiC stones. The rest are AlOx.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 20, 2021)

Yup the Morihei leaves more bite than Chosera 3k. Really all the Morihei do. I sharpened the edge bevel on my Tanka R2 with the Morihei 6k and it had bite for days. Part of that is r2 and part of that is Morihei. But yeah, Morihei has bite, definitely more bite then Chosera even like Morihei 500 vs Chosera 400, Morihei has more bite pretty much across the board.




M1k3 said:


> Sigma Power 240 and 1k are SiC stones. The rest are AlOx.


Yeah that makes sense about those being SiC. The 1k especially felt like that to me. The 240 feels like a lot of really coarse stuff so harder for me to tell but makes sense given how fast both of these cut. Like they are metal monsters.

the Sigma power 240 and 1k along with the Gritomatic sic stuff are really the only water stones id ever consider for stuff like Maxamet. Don’t get me wrong, you are way better off with diamonds or Vitrified diamonds and things of that nature but if you really want to use water stones for some reason those are the ones to do it with if you want to have an okay time at least. Pretty much everything else is a colossal pain with maxamet. Makes sense given their sic.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 20, 2021)

daniel_il said:


> For what is worth, I think the sigma power 2k(soaking stone) is also sold as kohetsu 2k.
> if you say the morihei 4K leaves more bite than the chosera 3k, it could be the one.
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah the 320 is better for edges and cleaning up after the 120. That said, the way it cleans up after the 120 is quite good and given how cheap it is and how well it can give you a useable edge on junk stainless makes it pretty worthwhile especially given it’s usually like $38 on Amazon in the USA.


----------



## BoSharpens (Dec 20, 2021)

"sic", I assume, is referring to Silicon Carbide (originally called Carborundum from its 1890 invention by Acheson).

I'm curious if any PCBN, polycrystalline cubic boron nitride, stones are made? I know it is used for production grinding of steel, where diamonds break down too fast.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 20, 2021)

BoSharpens said:


> "sic", I assume, is referring to Silicon Carbide (originally called Carborundum from its 1890 invention by Acheson).
> 
> I'm curious if any PCBN, polycrystalline cubic boron nitride, stones are made? I know it is used for production grinding of steel, where diamonds break down too fast.



theres some cbn plates out there but not whole stones I think? Spyderco makes a cbn plate I’ve written about before


----------



## Rangen (Dec 20, 2021)

Poltava does, or did, make metallic-bonded CBN stones in 1x6 (EdgePro size). IIRC Practical Sharpening was offering metallic-bonded full-sized CBN bench stones at one point, unless I'm remembering wrong. Seriously expensive in both cases.

CBN responds better to heat than diamonds do, hence the industrial uses. Advantages in a stone used by hand are less clear, but one possibility that's been mentioned is less-harsh scratches, because of the shape of the crystal compared to diamond.


----------



## pavhav (Dec 20, 2021)

These are the only CBN plates I've used:









Poltava Premium Metallic CBN Stone [6" x 1"]


Metallic CBN Sharpening Stones from Poltava Diamond Tools are used for sharpening knives using guided knife sharpeners (Hapstone, TSPROF, and other Edge Pro-compatible sharpening systems). CBN (Cubic Boron Nitride) is the second-hardest material after diamond. Metal bonded CBN stones utilize...




www.gritomatic.com





The 50 is my go to for lowering the edge angle on any high alloy PM steels, (on folding knives mostly).


----------



## tcmx3 (Dec 21, 2021)

SolidSnake03 said:


> yeah the one I have I tend to hit it with my Atoma 140 frequently to refresh the surface/clean out the metal gunk haha.
> 
> 
> 
> yeah sandpaper is a smart choice on that as well. Probably really quickly takes metal off and harder pressure doesn’t help as much. Never tried the LD line actually. Everything I tried from them is the SNE stuff. Definitely let us know what you think of it once you get time with it



first session with the ld-21 and I already strongly prefer it to SP120 and SG220 just because I was able to use it and not really have it run out of steam. the included tomo nagura is nice too was using that a bit and it just seemed to cut and cut. granted I am not smashing my bevel into the stone but yeah I really like it for a course option. glad to have it.


----------



## Garm (Dec 22, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> first session with the ld-21 and I already strongly prefer it to SP120 and SG220 just because I was able to use it and not really have it run out of steam. the included tomo nagura is nice too was using that a bit and it just seemed to cut and cut. granted I am not smashing my bevel into the stone but yeah I really like it for a course option. glad to have it.


I've had the LD-21 in my cart at Amazon for a while after seeing it in use in a YT video, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
My current lowest grit option is the SG220, which I like the most of the ones in this range I've tried, which admittedly aren't all that many.
Nice to hear the opinion of someone on the forum who has used this Suehiro! If you have any further insights or impressions I'd very much like to hear them. Hardness, tendency to slurry etc.



daniel_il said:


> For what is worth, I think the sigma power 2k(soaking stone) is also sold as kohetsu 2k.


Based on what I've read about the Sigma Power 2k, I'd be surprised if that is the case. The Kohetsu 2k is a stone I often use and really like for certain applications.
It is however very soft and friable, like many of my favourite stones in the medium grit range. From what the vendor told me, the company that produces them only makes an 800 and a 2k stone, even after being begged to expand the range.
This could be wrong of course, given how much secrecy and (mis)information that seems to surround Japanese whetstones.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 23, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> first session with the ld-21 and I already strongly prefer it to SP120 and SG220 just because I was able to use it and not really have it run out of steam. the included tomo nagura is nice too was using that a bit and it just seemed to cut and cut. granted I am not smashing my bevel into the stone but yeah I really like it for a course option. glad to have it.



glad to hear it! May have to give this a shot sometime myself. The ld line is one that I don’t have any experience with myself so I’m intrigued 

How’s the scratch pattern off of it? Really deep and aggressive or better behaved like the 120-320 combo? Any of those extra deep scratches that won’t come out on a higher grit stone? The sne line seemed to have those in the lower grits so wondering how these hold up in that regard


----------



## daniel_il (Dec 23, 2021)

Garm said:


> I've had the LD-21 in my cart at Amazon for a while after seeing it in use in a YT video, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
> My current lowest grit option is the SG220, which I like the most of the ones in this range I've tried, which admittedly aren't all that many.
> Nice to hear the opinion of someone on the forum who has used this Suehiro! If you have any further insights or impressions I'd very much like to hear them. Hardness, tendency to slurry etc.
> 
> ...



I have the MD-20 and im sharing solidsnake opinion regarding the deep scratching, its still getting use but i had troubles with taking scratching out of stainless clad. with iron clad its totally fine and worked great on my mazaki. maybe the MD-20 is different from the LD-21.

regarding the sigma, its a guess based on a japanese review iv'e read. thanks for sharing this


----------



## tcmx3 (Dec 23, 2021)

SolidSnake03 said:


> glad to hear it! May have to give this a shot sometime myself. The ld line is one that I don’t have any experience with myself so I’m intrigued
> 
> How’s the scratch pattern off of it? Really deep and aggressive or better behaved like the 120-320 combo? Any of those extra deep scratches that won’t come out on a higher grit stone? The sne line seemed to have those in the lower grits so wondering how these hold up in that regard



uh ok I had to test it out a bit this morning but it doesnt seem too bad. I was able to erase ld-21 scratches with an sg-500 but with the caveat that I did, not a ton, maybe like, 5 passes over the total bevel. maybe if I had just spent 40 minutes it would be harder. on the other had, I doubt it's something a slightly faster stone couldnt handle, like a 400 grit (or in my case I might use a bit of sg-220 to knock the ridges down)


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Dec 23, 2021)

tcmx3 said:


> uh ok I had to test it out a bit this morning but it doesnt seem too bad. I was able to erase ld-21 scratches with an sg-500 but with the caveat that I did, not a ton, maybe like, 5 passes over the total bevel. maybe if I had just spent 40 minutes it would be harder. on the other had, I doubt it's something a slightly faster stone couldnt handle, like a 400 grit (or in my case I might use a bit of sg-220 to knock the ridges down)


Thanks for the feedback on that! Sounds like it would be worth a try  thanks!


----------

