# What's the deal with Ginsanko steel?



## DitmasPork (Mar 2, 2018)

On Panda's "Mazaki" thread there was a mention of the forthcoming Ginsanko version.

LoL mentioned that "carbon people" liked it. Most of my knives are carbon. Trying to wrap my head around what Ginsanko's positive and negative attributes are in a kitchen knifeI'm aware that steel is only a part of a knife's performance along with HT, profile, etc. And how it might compare to stainless knives I've used.

Stainless knives I own are:
 Misono UX10 >> Swedish steel (whatever that means)
 Gesshin Kagero >> unknown powder steel
 Mercer >> X50 Cr Mo V15 (whatever that means)
 Gesshin Gengetsu >> unknown semi-stainless
 Cheap Kikuichi Moly suji
 Mac Pro petty >> Chrome Molybdenum steel alloy with Vanadium
 Victorinox boning >> ??

Question is, which of my stainless knives would Ginsanko be closest to?


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## QCDawg (Mar 2, 2018)

UX-10 (my research says aebl or 19c27). Has lots of stainless family members. Good stuff.

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=13c26,19c27,aeb-l,ginsanko,mbs-26


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## bkultra (Mar 2, 2018)

From Knife Steel Comparison:

It is a AEB-H/19c27 clone like VG-1 and MBS26, so it is also similar to what is found in the Suisin Inox Honyaki knives.


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## StonedEdge (Mar 2, 2018)

Any stainless other than VG10 is alright by me! lol


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## Barmoley (Mar 2, 2018)

Well treated VG10 is actually pretty good. Example Tanaka VG10 is very good. Shun VG10 is very chippy on the other hand......


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## DitmasPork (Mar 2, 2018)

One of the reasons for the sudden interest is wanting a smaller travel knife. I usually take both a carbon and stainless 240 gyuto with me to visit family in Hawaii, where I cook a lot while there. Salty air, humidity, and acidy ingredients (pineapples and lines galore), plus my mom's small cutting board makes me want a 210.


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## harlock0083 (Mar 2, 2018)

Did Shun really mess up on their VG10 heat treat to give it such a bad name? Personally, I haven't had an issue with VG10.


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## StonedEdge (Mar 2, 2018)

Let's just say VG10 ain't Ginsanko. Deburring Ginsanko doesn't take all day.


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## bkultra (Mar 2, 2018)

harlock0083 said:


> Did Shun really mess up on their VG10 heat treat to give it such a bad name? Personally, I haven't had an issue with VG10.



Shun is a very popular brand and is what most people think of when they hear "Japanese kitchen knife". Many of these are sold to people with poor knife skills and its often their first venture from thicker & softer German knives. Poor skill and rough treatment will always lead to chipping. I don't believe there is anything wrong with their HT. (though I'm sure its not the best either)


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## Barmoley (Mar 2, 2018)

All true, but at least years back when I had mine and was very careful with them, they still chipped more than you would expect. It is possible that through the years their heat treat changed, but my versions of the knives were bad and made me suspicious of VG10 to this day.


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## Benuser (Mar 2, 2018)

UX-10 is 19C27: coarsely grained, offering a lot of bite. Sharpening isn't the easiest. AEB--L or 13C26 is finely grained, sharpens easily, almost carbon-like. The Gin-3 I've owned or sharpened were quite close to the first. But a lot will depend on how the HT was performed, and this might explain the differences in reports where grain and carbide size are concerned.


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## bkultra (Mar 2, 2018)

AEB-H not L

AEB-H = 19C27


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## osakajoe (Mar 2, 2018)

All MAC knives are AUS8 steel


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## osakajoe (Mar 2, 2018)

DitmasPork said:


> Stainless knives I own are:
>  Gesshin Kagero >> unknown powder steel
>  Gesshin Gengetsu >> unknown semi-stainless



How do you not know the steels in these knives? I thought Jon was always detailed and specific in what he does.


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## bkultra (Mar 2, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> How do you not know the steels in these knives? I thought Jon was always detailed and specific in what he does.



There are some items he can list and other he can't. Sometimes its the makers that ask not to say, such and Heiji's semi stainless and others, and other times its to protect his own products. Jon will answer any questions about the unlisted steels and even tell you how they compare to similar steels.


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## IndoorOutdoorCook (Mar 2, 2018)

Not gonna lie, I thought this was the start of a Seinfeld joke


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## osakajoe (Mar 3, 2018)

As long as you know what youre getting before you buy. I would never recommend buying a knife if you do not know what steel it is. What your intended use is, level you of maintenance, and what stones you have is very closely related to the steel. So the more you know about or know exactly what the steel is the better.


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## panda (Mar 3, 2018)

ginsanko is the ONLY carbon-like stainless i've come across.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Mar 3, 2018)

panda said:


> ginsanko is the ONLY carbon-like stainless i've come across.



Why is that? To me aeb-l feels easier to sharpen than ginsan.


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## panda (Mar 3, 2018)

i did not care for aeb-l one bit.
then again i havent tried niolox..


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## cegadede (Mar 3, 2018)

harlock0083 said:


> Did Shun really mess up on their VG10 heat treat to give it such a bad name? Personally, I haven't had an issue with VG10.


I think it's fashionable here to hate vg10. I have used a shun vg10 Chinese chef's knife for the last 6 years and never had a chip at the edge.


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## Benuser (Mar 3, 2018)

Let's put things a bit into perspective.
VG-10 is a great steel if treated well, and less great if not. Nothing new about that. 
Large production numbers lead to less than optimal heat treatment.
A lot of knives come OOTB with a poor, weak edge. Seems to have to do with factory buffering. Once decently sharpened weakness disappears.
A popular knife like a Shun will come into hands of a general public, used to abuse resistant soft blades and having corresponding poor habits. A sub-optimal heat treatment, a weak factory edge and unskilled users who don't sharpen their own knives, all together will lead to damage. With a hard steel as chips.


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## Matus (Mar 3, 2018)

Composition wise gisanko is just a simple high carbon steel with chromium. The mai difference to aeb-l are carbides in the austenitic phase and thus based on HT probably a bit less fine structure.


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## DitmasPork (Mar 3, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> All MAC knives are AUS8 steel



Mac's dealer websites list the Mac Pro steel as "High carbon Chrome Molybdenum steel alloy with Vanadium," are you saying it's the same steel as "AUS8"?


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## DitmasPork (Mar 3, 2018)

osakajoe said:


> As long as you know what youre getting before you buy. I would never recommend buying a knife if you do not know what steel it is. What your intended use is, level you of maintenance, and what stones you have is very closely related to the steel. So the more you know about or know exactly what the steel is the better.



To me, exact steel composition is only one aspect of a knife. When buying a gyuto I might consider, what I need it for, who the maker is, who the dealer is, reviews, design, handle, steel, etc. I'll sometimes spend months researching before buying a knife, learning as much as I neednever experienced buyer's remorse.

I've sussed out from some on KKF, that an unfashionable steel with great HT, is preferable than a great steel with poor HT.

With stones I'm a minimalistowning two stones, used on all my knivesfrom white #2 to powder steel. They get my knives sharp enough with so issue. However, I do need another stone to complete my set.

In the case of my Kagero and Gengetsuwhich I'm very happy with. I didn't feel it necessary for me to know the exact steel composition; what heat treatment; or who the maker is? Reason is that I trusted my dealer and his recommendationsI got enough of a description of the knives by calling Jon, and having a dialogue about it, by asking questions, and by him asking me questions. I dig his perspective of not getting too hung up on steel compositions and heat treatmentsbut thinking about a knife's performance, characteristics, etc. 

Your method of choosing a knife is not too dissimilar than minejust different paths perhaps. When I bought my first knife from Jon, it blew me away how much time he spent on the phone discussing j-knives with a then newbie.


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## daveb (Mar 3, 2018)

panda said:


> ginsanko is the ONLY carbon-like stainless i've come across.


SKD?


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## GorillaGrunt (Mar 3, 2018)

Ive been wondering about this. As usual what I _think_ I know is probably incomplete but anyhow, Ive heard ginsan described as the stainless most like Hitachi carbon, best/most popular for traditional Japanese knives such as single bevels, and so on. However Ive also heard it considered to be a coarser grained steel whereas the blue and white carbon are called fine grained steels, and that that has something to do with refined, highly polished edges. Does this have any impact in real world use, sharpening and cutting, or not really, or only if youre actually making sushi?


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## QCDawg (Mar 3, 2018)

Ashi is very good


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## dafox (Mar 3, 2018)

What are people's experience with AUS8?


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## JaVa (Mar 3, 2018)

daveb said:


> SKD?



SKD is even more carbon like then ginsanko, but it's not SS. It's semi SS and in practice closer to carbon then SS IMHO. Will get a nice dark patina going just takes a bit longer then say B2. When sharpening a B2 knife and SKD I almost can't tell the difference on the stones. Though SKD has a lot longer edge retention the any carbon knives I've experienced. 

I've only used Tanaka ginsanko and love that stuff. SKD is a bit smoother on the stones, but the edge retention I get with my two ginsanko knives is just ridiculous, rivals even R2. R2 does last a bit longer over all, but ginsanko holds on to the fresh edge much longer and I love that. 

Ginsanko and SKD are my two favourite steels. I don't think there's any draw backs with SKD compared to carbon steels it's that close in real life use. With ginsanko there's a small trade off with not as smooth feel on the stones (still smooth for SS though), but there's that crazy edge retention. 

Almost who needs carbon steels anymore when SS and semi SS can be that good? :sofa: 
...almost!


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## Matus (Mar 3, 2018)

Well, ASUS-8 does contain all those elements, although in a rather small amounts.


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