# I've read enough...help me finish my stone progression please!



## Checkpure (Feb 7, 2021)

So I have the knife and stone bug and I tend to over research purchases in an effort to get it right the first time. I try to only have items that fill a specific need and quickly sell anything that doesn't fill a role. I've been into knives for a long time (folders) and I can get my J-Knives very sharp with whetstones.

I currently have Naniwa Pro 400, 800, 2000 (a king 6k that I'm trying to replace) and a leather/felt strop. I like to finish the Gyuto's on the 2k with minimal to no stropping for a functional edge, I am tempted to chase the dragon even with a Naniwa Pro 3000 to see if I can get a slightly better edge than the 2k. 

I plan on purchasing two more stones (Natural or Synethic) to round out the progression (I want 5 to 6 stones max). In a perfect world these two stones would be able to handle polishing, further edge refinement for higher HRC blades, and be able to tackle a Yanagiba. I've been looking at an Aoto/Aizu/Uchigumori and a Suita Renge as possible options but I also am tempted by just grabbing two more synthetics (4k, 8k, or 3k, 8k) and forgetting the polishing game altogether. 

I'm not looking at spending more than 500 per stone (which seems feasible if I'm only purchasing naturals for performance and not aesthetics), less per stone would be lovely!


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## D J (Feb 7, 2021)

Stick to synthetics. If you buy a natural stone you may slip and fall down a hole...like me and many others


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## daveb (Feb 7, 2021)

Reading good things about the King 8K in other threads. Not tried one myself. I owned / used the Gesshin 8K a few years ago and liked it but went to nats for higher grits.

I like to finish my yani on nats. The aoto and aizu are pretty much med grits. There's a gillion finishing nats, you should decide if you want a softer (more forgiving) or harder (takes more skill to use well).


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Feb 7, 2021)

Finish edge on an aizu, finish bladeroad on a suita. Done deal.

Naniwa 400
Naniwa 800
<delete Naniwa 2k to make space>
Aizu ~2k+, finish here for coarse edges
Uchi ~5k+
Yaginoshima or Okudo Suita ~8k+
Jnat razor stone koppa > strop


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## Checkpure (Feb 7, 2021)

daveb said:


> Reading good things about the King 8K in other threads. Not tried one myself. I owned / used the Gesshin 8K a few years ago and liked it but went to nats for higher grits.
> 
> I like to finish my yani on nats. The aoto and aizu are pretty much med grits. There's a gillion finishing nats, you should decide if you want a softer (more forgiving) or harder (takes more skill to use well).


I don't care about the skill level required, I can develop skill. I want the best two stones to compliment / finish what I have if possible.


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## Checkpure (Feb 7, 2021)

D J said:


> Stick to synthetics. If you buy a natural stone you may slip and fall down a hole...like me and many others


I know I know! I wont let it happen though. I really just want the absolute two best stones to follow the 2k in (edge first, finish second).


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## Kawa (Feb 7, 2021)

My wife just ordered a kitayama 8000 (Imanishi) for my birthday. Means I can start playing with it on march 30th (otherwise the idea of a birthday present doesnt make sence).
I made her quickly order it from cleancut.eu since they offer it for around 80,- euro. Most places ask 120-140 euro for it.
It was cheaper then gesshin or cerax. Only the Bester series (also Imanishi) is at the same price.
Since you are in the US, this might all be rubbish for you 

It's hard to point towards a stone and say 'thats the best'. 100 people, 101 different opinions.
You can only hope you notice a thread in the opinions. If I interprent the reviews correctly, the kitayama still has some bite to the edge and some even mention it has some feeling that reminds of a natural stone.

I dont know. I just went for it after a night of searching (btw, the search function on this forum isn't the best i've seen).



Btw, why do you like to stop at 2k for gyuto _with minimal to no stropping_? Do you mean u dont want to strop before going to a higher gritt, or do you stop at 2k and dont like to end with stropping? If the latter is the case: to me sharpening always ends with stropping.


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## Checkpure (Feb 7, 2021)

Kawa said:


> My wife just ordered a kitayama 8000 (Imanishi) for my birthday. Means I can start playing with it on march 30th (otherwise the idea of a birthday present doesnt make sence).
> I made her quickly order it from cleancut.eu since they offer it for around 80,- euro. Most places ask 120-140 euro for it.
> It was cheaper then gesshin or cerax. Only the Bester series (also Imanishi) is at the same price.
> Since you are in the US, this might all be rubbish for you
> ...



If I go 2k - 6k loaded strop the edge is screaming sharp.
Can shave and do this silly stuff.

But it skips on tomatoe skin and doesn’t hold up as long on the boards. (White #2, VG10). We’ll see when I get my Denka if that changes. 

When i finish on 2k it just cuts and keeps on cutting for days. It just doesn’t do the fancy paper and hair stuff (and I’m not making hair sandwiches so no loss here).


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## Kawa (Feb 7, 2021)

Do you mean 2k -> 6k -> loaded strop
Or 2k -> a strop loaded with a 6k compound?

Sorry English is not my main, so sometimes its hard to read nuances in grammar the right way.


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## Checkpure (Feb 7, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Do you mean 2k -> 6k -> loaded strop
> Or 2k -> a strop loaded with a 6k compound?
> 
> Sorry English is not my main, so sometimes its hard to read nuances in grammar the right way.


Sorry I’m not being clear! I was saying when I go naniwa pro 800 to 2000 to king 6000 to strop.


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## panda (Feb 7, 2021)

I got rid of my badass aizu once I tried gesshin 4k. absolute best stone ever.


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## Kawa (Feb 7, 2021)

From my understanding, which is mostly from reading around here and little field experience, a strop is to remove the final burr. When done a bit wrong, u might round of the edge and remain with a slick (because of the 6k stone) but not very true apexed (is this a word?) edge. Makes sence you skid on tomatoe skin that way.

A 2k edge is more like a saw under a microscope, so when your edge isnt as good as we might hope, it will keep cutting anyway, because it will grab/bite into anything.

One of the better knifemakers/sharpeners around here once told me that a high gritt edge doesnt mean edge retention is worse. If the edge isn't 'perfect enough' it might feel that way.

Also, tomatoe on white#2 might just ruin the edge very fast. I have a blue#2 petty and I can feel the edge getting dull after cutting a handfull of cherry tomatoes. Its just the acid working on carbon steel. I dont have this experience on other food, so I came to the conclusion its the acid, not the sharpening from my side.

Just helping looking at different solutions, since ur problem shouldn't excist, in my humble opinion (meaning: 6k and then strop should be able to slice through tomatoe, VG10 and white#2)


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## Checkpure (Feb 7, 2021)

panda said:


> I got rid of my badass aizu once I tried gesshin 4k. absolute best stone ever.


I’ve strongly considered it. I emailed with Jon (that guy is a beyond amazing) and he took the time to explain a lot to me. The only downsides are it’s a soaker (in my world of splash and go’s) and leaves a lot to be desired in terms of finish I hear.


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## Checkpure (Feb 7, 2021)

Kawa said:


> From my understanding, which is mostly from reading around here and little field experience, a strop is to remove the final burr. When done a bit wrong, u might round of the edge and remain with a slick (because of the 6k stone) but not very true apexed (is this a word?) edge. Makes sence you skid on tomatoe skin that way.
> 
> A 2k edge is more like a saw under a microscope, so when your edge isnt as good as we might hope, it will keep cutting anyway, because it will grab/bite into anything.
> 
> ...


Oh it slices, just not as nice as my 2k edge. I can remove the burr with the 2k stone no problem. Check the paper cutting video, I’m pretty sure I’m not rolling the edge with improper stropping. I just prefer the saw like edge for general purpose work that the 2k leaves. It is fun to take it to 6k and beyond and I will be doing that with my Yanagibas/Suji but those will be dedicated slicers. 
I’m still experimenting with all of this though. Which is why I appreciate the discussion here.


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## daveb (Feb 7, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> to king 6000 to strop.



strop = verb




Kawa said:


> a strop is to remove the final burr.



strop = noun


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## Checkpure (Feb 7, 2021)

daveb said:


> strop = verb
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol .


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## Kawa (Feb 7, 2021)

a now i see what you mean.

stropping on the 6k stone
versus
taking a strop to strop


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## Delat (Feb 8, 2021)

Kawa said:


> a now i see what you mean.
> 
> stropping on the 6k stone
> versus
> taking a strop to strop


“naniwa pro 800 to 2000 to king 6000 to strop”

Actually his rephrasing here leaves a tiny bit of room for ambiguity. He could be saying that he uses the “6k to strop”. In which case he’s using the 6k as a strop. 

But in context he’s using the word “to” as a transition, basically a synonym for “next”. So replace the word “to” in his sentence with the word “next” and he’s saying after that the 6k he next uses a strop. Colloquially, this interpretation is much more likely. Plus he originally mentioned a “loaded strop”, and strops are loaded with paste expressed in microns, so a “6k loaded strop” wouldn’t make any sense, nor do you load a stone.


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## naader (Feb 8, 2021)

An aizu edge is as good as it gets for gyutos. Finer awasedo are good for yanagiba. Synthetics cant compete.


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## naader (Feb 8, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> Finish edge on an aizu, finish bladeroad on a suita. Done deal.
> 
> Naniwa 400
> Naniwa 800
> ...


I've never seen a yaginoshima suita anywhere near as fine as the average okudo.


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## ModRQC (Feb 8, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> If I go 2k - 6k loaded strop the edge is screaming sharp.
> ...
> But it skips on tomatoe skin and doesn’t hold up as long on the boards. (White #2, VG10). We’ll see when I get my Denka if that changes.
> 
> When i finish on 2k it just cuts and keeps on cutting for days. It just doesn’t do the fancy paper and hair stuff (and I’m not making hair sandwiches so no loss here).





Checkpure said:


> I just prefer the saw like edge for general purpose work that the 2k leaves. It is fun to take it to 6k and beyond and I will be doing that with my Yanagibas/Suji but those will be dedicated slicers.
> I’m still experimenting with all of this though. Which is why I appreciate the discussion here.



Basically, you don't have any problem then. That you would prefer the 2K edge for general kitchen tasks is understandable in many cases. Your King doesn't leave enough bite to be of your liking is all. 

Suehiro Ouka/Cerax 3000 leaves a fine edge with a lot of bite and is a good polishing stone. The smaller version can be had for cheap usually, cost me under 50$ CAD, not expensive to try.

You may like the edge of NP3K - aggressive enough for tomatoes still. Not my best polisher though.

From the edges you like best, keep below 5K, and perhaps go elsewhere than S&Gs.


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## D J (Feb 8, 2021)

I'll chime in again with a natural. I haven't read any reviews or thoughts on this stone, but I'm sure there would be some here...somewhere. it was the 3rd natural I bought, at the time I had 2 finishing stones and was looking for a lower grit natural. I found a stone on Ebay called iyoto (I think that's how it's spelled) it was something like $45-$50au. cheap for what I'd been looking at. The deal was that the seller chose the stone to send. I didn't know much about stones back then and not much about sharpening either. Anyway 3 to 4 weeks later the package arrives. I wasn't impressed with the look of the stone. It has lots of su holes all over, a couple of big cracks that run across the surface and almost the whole way around the stone. It's courser on one end and finer on the other end. It is now one of my favourite stones. After a 1000 grit, I go to the iyo, on some knives that's as far as I go. But mostly go to an ohira suita after. I've never used an aoto so can't compare. I do have 2 small aizu stones and prefer the iyo.


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## Benuser (Feb 8, 2021)

The Naniwa Pro / Chosera 2k's end result corresponds to JIS3k, and the 3k to JIS4k, JIS being the Japanese industrial standard. For double-bevelled blades with board contact no good reason to go beyond that. In the very rare case I can't completely get rid of a burr, a few strokes on Blue Belgian Brocken will do. 
One of the funny things with the Chosera series is the very different character from one stone to another. The 3k is not the finer version of the 2k.
I would call the 2k rather aggressive, as the 3k provides a silky feeling.


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## Checkpure (Feb 8, 2021)

D J said:


> I'll chime in again with a natural. I haven't read any reviews or thoughts on this stone, but I'm sure there would be some here...somewhere. it was the 3rd natural I bought, at the time I had 2 finishing stones and was looking for a lower grit natural. I found a stone on Ebay called iyoto (I think that's how it's spelled) it was something like $45-$50au. cheap for what I'd been looking at. The deal was that the seller chose the stone to send. I didn't know much about stones back then and not much about sharpening either. Anyway 3 to 4 weeks later the package arrives. I wasn't impressed with the look of the stone. It has lots of su holes all over, a couple of big cracks that run across the surface and almost the whole way around the stone. It's courser on one end and finer on the other end. It is now one of my favourite stones. After a 1000 grit, I go to the iyo, on some knives that's as far as I go. But mostly go to an ohira suita after. I've never used an aoto so can't compare. I do have 2 small aizu stones and prefer the iyo. View attachment 113371


You lucked out with that stone and pricing for sure. Pretty piece of rock also. I think i'm going to have to try an Aizu as I see that recommended quite a bit and I don't see any iyoto's around to try.


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## Checkpure (Feb 8, 2021)

Benuser said:


> The Naniwa Pro / Chosera 2k's end result corresponds to JIS3k, and the 3k to JIS4k, JIS being the Japanese industrial standard. For double-bevelled blades with board contact no good reason to go beyond that. In the very rare case I can't completely get rid of a burr, a few strokes on Blue Belgian Brocken will do.
> One of the funny things with the Chosera series is the very different character from one stone to another. The 3k is not the finer version of the 2k.
> I would call the 2k rather aggressive, as the 3k provides a silky feeling.


This is what i'm finding and its nice to see it confirmed. I am tempted to play with the 3k pro due to how well received it is and how great the results I get from the 2k are. 

The options i'm considering now are 
400 -> 800 -> 2000 -> Aizu -> Uchi -> Suita
or
400 -> 800 -> 2000 -> 3000 -> Uchi -> Suita 

Uchi and Suita for polishing and Yanagibas.


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## inferno (Feb 8, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Suehiro Ouka/Cerax 3000 leaves a fine edge with a lot of bite and is a good polishing stone. The smaller version can be had for cheap usually, cost me under 50$ CAD, not expensive to try.



i have the naniwa pro 2k and i feel its a better stone for polishing than the ouka. they are basically both 3k stones, but the naniwa creates a finish that is more consistent, easier to get there, and no streaks. about the same contrast. and its basically splash and go.

not saying the ouka is bad but i can never get it completely scratch/silver streak free like the naniwa. 

i think the oukas abrasive never actually breaks down, its gets dislodged but it never breaks down. but the naniwa seems to break down to finer when working it. and thats whats making it better or easier to use as a polisher imo. with that being said though, the ouka is very good. and half the price.


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## inferno (Feb 8, 2021)

Checkpure said:


> This is what i'm finding and its nice to see it confirmed. I am tempted to play with the 3k pro due to how well received it is and how great the results I get from the 2k are.
> 
> The options i'm considering now are
> 400 -> 800 -> 2000 -> Aizu -> Uchi -> Suita
> ...



uchis are usually not that fine. i think around 3-5k or so. so you usually will not get a mirror edge and then a hazy cladding. just so you know. but its still a very nice finish, and its super easy to get it! you can get a similar finish with a coticule but those stones feel completely different. but yeah those are cheap and good naturals. i have recently mined ones and i've very happy with the finish.

if you want to sharpen. what about a glass 4k? stuff gets very very sharp. its fast, wear slow, does pretty much all common steels the same. splash and go.
this is one of the best finishers i have.

or take it up a notch. to the 8-12k region. 

12k naniwa ss. no. good for mirror polishing and razors but not very good for knives imo.
12k shapton pro. very good for carbon steel knives. cuts fast. clogs less than the naniwa.
10k imanishi. medium soft stone for its grit. really creamy and nice feeling, on edges it turns to a mirror. 
8k shapton pro. very good stone imo. probably my ultimate stopping point for blue and white steel. scary sharp obviously.
6k gray glass HC. its a 6k stone that can create a true mirror finish somehow. its good for all steels. i feel this a bit of a secret weapon. 
8k cerax. you can polish with this one and get some good contrast out of it. but its very hard to get a perfect finish out of it. its a soaker though.
quite good for sharpening, i usually dont like stones that release abrasive for actual sharpening. but hey whatever floats you boat.


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## Checkpure (Feb 8, 2021)

inferno said:


> uchis are usually not that fine. i think around 3-5k or so. so you usually will not get a mirror edge and then a hazy cladding. just so you know. but its still a very nice finish, and its super easy to get it! you can get a similar finish with a coticule but those stones feel completely different. but yeah those are cheap and good naturals. i have recently mined ones and i've very happy with the finish.
> 
> if you want to sharpen. what about a glass 4k? stuff gets very very sharp. its fast, wear slow, does pretty much all common steels the same. splash and go.
> this is one of the best finishers i have.
> ...


Appreciate the recommendations and have seen you praise these stones in previous threads. Do you take your gyuto past the shapton glass 4K? 

The shapton glass HC 6k / 4K are both on my radar as well.


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## inferno (Feb 8, 2021)

i usually dont take anything stainless above 4k. carbons can go higher. 6-8-10-12k but even stopping at 4k is fine for me.


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## Checkpure (Feb 8, 2021)

inferno said:


> i usually dont take anything stainless above 4k. carbons can go higher. 6-8-10-12k but even stopping at 4k is fine for me.


Would the SG 4k HC leave a decent kasumi finish? Very tempted to pick up this stone or the NP 3K just to play with until I can get some good naturals to replace them. The natural hunt I feel is going to take a while and require patience.


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## ModRQC (Feb 8, 2021)

inferno said:


> i have the naniwa pro 2k and i feel its a better stone for polishing than the ouka. they are basically both 3k stones, but the naniwa creates a finish that is more consistent, easier to get there, and no streaks. about the same contrast. and its basically splash and go.
> 
> not saying the ouka is bad but i can never get it completely scratch/silver streak free like the naniwa.
> 
> i think the oukas abrasive never actually breaks down, its gets dislodged but it never breaks down. but the naniwa seems to break down to finer when working it. and thats whats making it better or easier to use as a polisher imo. with that being said though, the ouka is very good. and half the price.



I agree and disagree with this.

I do agree that Ouka cannot be a final polisher, for exactly the reasons you stated - hard to get entirely rid of some silver streaking and lingering scratches. I found it worked well with Rika in this aspect.

I disagree that its mud doesn't break down. I think the truth rather lies with the Ouka starting much coarser than its grit. I did a fair bit of sharpening experiments with it, and it's pretty goddamn fast. Within my rather limited experience with stones, I'd say it starts barely slower than King DL 1200 or SP1500 - something like the 1500-2000 grit range - and refines towards its grit some. I'd peg it to be faster than SP2K to start with. Texture is pretty coarse, too. To some extent it's scratch pattern is just that bit finer than what I could get out of SP1500, and general polishing capacities better too, with a nicer haze in the finish.

I also could verify upon a couple of occasions that Ouka was about twice as fast as Rika - which pretty much proved the point at hand to me since Rika is a 3000 starter that refines to its grit. In similar tests with sharpening speed, I'd peg NP3K as being slower than Rika, faster than SP5K, and SP5K was pretty much twice as slow as Rika, NP3K nestling somewhat in between in both behavior and feeling: harder and less muddy than Rika, with a bit of a glassier feeling, but nothing the likes of that of SP5K, compared to which NP3K will release more abrasives, with a creamy sharpening slurry, and feeling much silkier than SP5K while still feeling just about as hard.

Edit: and now interested to try NP2K.


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## inferno (Feb 8, 2021)

wouldn't know. never tried it. only tried the white hr 4k glass. and the gray hc 6k. i think the 4k gray will be good though. could be the last finisher one would ever need. i'm not much of a nat guy for actual edges. i can get 10 synths for 1 nat. and the synths are all the same from stone to stone. the nats are all different. and you never know what you get. 

yeah i'm certain you can get a very good edge out of a suita or similar. i'm also fairly certain a 8/12k shapton edge will be just as good. horses for courses...


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## inferno (Feb 8, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> I agree and disagree with this.
> 
> I do agree that Ouka cannot be a final polisher, for exactly the reasons you stated - hard to get entirely rid of some silver streaking and lingering scratches. I found it worked well with Rika in this aspect.
> 
> ...



yeah you might be onto something. but it could also just simply be that vitrified stones like the suehiros behave different compared to magnesia ones like naniwa pros and shaptons pros (i think the pros are magnesia stones), glass should be resinoid.

the naniwa pro 2k is one of the best stones i have tried! 3k edge. good kasumi finish. fast. splash and go. slow wear. yeah its a good stone. its a bit expensive though. i dont particulary prefer the feel of it to either the glass or shapton pros. nor do i prefer the feel of the 800 to any other 1k. they are not that special to be honest. not to me at least.

i've always wanted to try the naniwa pro 3k but it has always been very expensive. and i already have a a few 3-4k range stones that i like. but some day... i will have it.


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## Checkpure (Feb 8, 2021)

inferno said:


> yeah you might be onto something. but it could also just simply be that vitrified stones like the suehiros behave different compared to magnesia ones like naniwa pros and shaptons pros (i think the pros are magnesia stones), glass should be resinoid.
> 
> the naniwa pro 2k is one of the best stones i have tried! 3k edge. good kasumi finish. fast. splash and go. slow wear. yeah its a good stone. its a bit expensive though. i dont particulary prefer the feel of it to either the glass or shapton pros. nor do i prefer the feel of the 800 to any other 1k. they are not that special to be honest. not to me at least.
> 
> i've always wanted to try the naniwa pro 3k but it has always been very expensive. and i already have a a few 3-4k range stones that i like. but some day... i will have it.



Yea I love the NP2K and I'm finding it leave a desirable finish as well. Really tempted to just pay for the NP3K to mess with until I can grab some nats.


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## inferno (Feb 8, 2021)

you could do worse! why not try it out. i usually get several stones when i get stones because of shipping cost. glass stones are also nice. especially the 3 and 4k. but you wont need the 3k.

if you have lots of carbon knives there is much fun to be had with the high grit stones.


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## Checkpure (Feb 8, 2021)

inferno said:


> you could do worse! why not try it out. i usually get several stones when i get stones because of shipping cost. glass stones are also nice. especially the 3 and 4k. but you wont need the 3k.
> 
> if you have lots of carbon knives there is much fun to be had with the high grit stones.


Yea getting them silly sharp is addictive. I try not to have lots of anything anymore. The knife rack holds six and that’s where I’m making out .


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