# How sharp is too sharp?



## WhiteRabbitAgain (Jun 21, 2022)

I was observing some FB forums and other places prior to coming here, and noted that in many sharpening circles, there is the view that grits over 400 are a waste of time. This was explained that for many kitchen purposes, the microserrations from the grit give it a greater ability to slice, and that for chopping type cutting, such as a straight razor (where I learned to sharpen) the highest grits and stropping are advantageous, but are unnecessary or even detrimental on kitchen knives.
This contradicted what I have seen on various higher end sharpeners on youtube, like Murray Carter, where he goes up over a thousand grit, works both the primary and secondary edge, and thins the blade.
I couldn't help but wonder if this is due to the quality of the steel more than the intended application, with carbon steel holding an edge better and lower quality stainless losing a sharp edge quickly, so a higher angle would keep it functional longer.


----------



## timebard (Jun 22, 2022)

Lots of relevant opinions here: What grit do you finish your knives on?

Tldr: most folks here would agree that microserrations/toothiness is desirable for many kitchen knives, but 400 grit is way too low and is a waste of steel for routine sharpening. Finishing knives made of quality steel somewhere in the 2k - 6k range seems pretty typical, cheaper stainless steel perhaps in the 1k - 2k range.


----------



## Tristan (Jun 22, 2022)

No such thing as too sharp.


----------



## GorillaGrunt (Jun 22, 2022)

Depends on how much you like to sharpen and how good you are or are going to get at it. I like mine finished to a pretty high grit, 5k or better, natural finishers, etc. then after a shift I touch up, only takes a couple minutes if that and then every few uses I might have to go down to an Aoto. Haven’t needed the 1k in months.

12k might be too sharp because then it’s so slick that it doesn’t really cut slippery veg or fatty meat well; of course I still might just not be good enough with that stone yet.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Jun 22, 2022)

At least 3k for the good stuff. Usually around 5-6k on naturals.
For the cheap stainless knives, 300 grit.


----------



## flx (Jun 22, 2022)

I am exploring lower grit finishes recently, 2k sharpton pro with low pressure is a good allrounder and stays relatively sharp for a long time.

On carbon steels I used to go 6k Atagoyama or 8k Aiwatani and thats great too, but you have to touch it up a lot more often, especially when youre cutting vegetables with a skin.


----------



## Wagnum (Jun 22, 2022)

I like a little tooth but that seems excessive even for softer steel


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Jun 22, 2022)

My cheap, soft steel is really cheap and i feel it can't take advantage of higher grit stones. Maybe one day i'll get a Shapton glass 500 to see if there's any improvement.






Faca Para Peixe E Legumes 7" Samurai Brinox Aço Inox | Amazon.com.br


Compre online Faca Para Peixe E Legumes 7" Samurai Brinox Aço Inox na Amazon. Frete GRÁTIS em milhares de produtos com o Amazon Prime. Encontre diversos produtos da marca Brinox com ótimos preços.



www.amazon.com.br





This one, for instance, would be a 9-dollar blade today, but i remember paying around around 5-6 dollars a few years ago.


----------



## MowgFace (Jun 22, 2022)

Really all depends on the user and cutting techniques. 

I know what my low grit edges feel like on food and would prefer some amount of refinement. In my current cheap stainless progression I use a 320 followed by a 2000. Somewhere in the middle is where the edge ends up as I definitely don’t fully remove the 320 scratches with the 2000. 

That being said, after using many of my friends knives I think I’d be happy to feel a 300 grit edge rather than a mm thick “edge”


----------



## Se1ryu (Jun 22, 2022)

WhiteRabbitAgain said:


> I was observing some FB forums and other places prior to coming here, and noted that in many sharpening circles, there is the view that grits over 400 are a waste of time. This was explained that for many kitchen purposes, the microserrations from the grit give it a greater ability to slice, and that for chopping type cutting, such as a straight razor (where I learned to sharpen) the highest grits and stropping are advantageous, but are unnecessary or even detrimental on kitchen knives.
> This contradicted what I have seen on various higher end sharpeners on youtube, like Murray Carter, where he goes up over a thousand grit, works both the primary and secondary edge, and thins the blade.
> I couldn't help but wonder if this is due to the quality of the steel more than the intended application, with carbon steel holding an edge better and lower quality stainless losing a sharp edge quickly, so a higher angle would keep it functional longer.


400 grit are way to coarse and left a deep scratches on the blade. I think for kitchen knives you can stop at 1000 grit is fine (minimum), and if you want more fine edge you can go up to 2000-3000 grit. 5000 and above is for single bevel polishing. It just silly if someone using 20-30,000 grit to polish a primary edge on Gyuto which only 1mm width.

But if someone just thinning their blade and wants to polish the secondary bevel which is the bigger bevel than it's a different story. depends on type of finished do you like on your secondary bevel like Kasumi/ hazy finish or semi mirror type of finished. Like that Mazaki JNS finish Gyuto, etc. CMIIW


----------



## cotedupy (Jun 22, 2022)

As above. I'm a fully paid up member of the low-grit-n-toothy-finish fan club, but 400 is too low imo, regardless of the steel quality.

In terms of performance you can absolutely get away with a 400 grit finish on a kitchen knife. But your edge retention is likely to be shorter even if you can properly deburr it. And combine that with removing more steel each time you sharpen... there's just no point finishing that low. Even on cheaper, softer steels I finish about 800.

The problem isn't to do with 'sharpness' though. Here's a bit of fun getting HHT off a Norton Crystolon (320-ish grit and very aggressive):


----------



## captaincaed (Jun 22, 2022)

Depends a lot on what you’re cutting, and what the task demands of your edge. My bias is “what finish level makes the job at hand easiest?” Horses for courses.

If you’re plating raw sushi, the presentation and way the surface of the fish holds the sauce will matter. Consider 8-12k depending on the steel, stone, and sharpening skill.

If you’re doing lots of raw veg prep, a 2-4k edge will give you enough teeth to cut through tough veggie skins, at about the highest refinement for making cuts easy and clean.

If you’re doing primarily butchery, 400-1k will have lots of teeth for cutting sinew, tendons and fascia - it’ll hold up a long time. If your edge is too refined, you’ll have trouble separating skin/fascia from meat, and you’ll cut through meat instead of separating wheat from chafe.

If you just want a “general purpose” edge, anything from 1-4k is great. 400 would feel a bit coarse for general use for me, but to each their own. FWIW, on the other end of things, 6-8k is a bit of a “dead zone” to me, where it’s too refined to have many teeth for veggies, and not refined enough to “fall through food” or give those super-clean presentation cuts. YMMV

If you have “softer” steel like Victorinox or Misen, going a bit coarser often helps, since those edges don’t take a higher-grit finishes as well as steels like VG-10/White/Blue/fill-in-the-blank steel taken to 60+ HRC.


----------



## Benuser (Jun 22, 2022)

400 may feel great, but even when completely deburred, as @cotedupy rightly presupposed, which isn't that simple, it won't hold for a long time: only the top of the serrations have board contact, and as soon as they are worn, the feeling is gone. This explains the addiction to diamond rods amongst the general public.


----------



## cotedupy (Jun 22, 2022)

Benuser said:


> 400 may feel great, but even when completely deburred, as @cotedupy rightly presupposed, which isn't that simple, it won't hold for a long time: only the top of the serrations have board contact, and as soon as they are worn, the feeling is gone. This explains the addiction to diamond rods amongst the general public.



A good number of your posts over the years have helped me understand about the nuances of what’s going on with things like this!


----------



## Kawa (Jun 22, 2022)

It also depends in how much of a hobby sharpening is to you.

As said above, a high gritt finish (5000-8000 range) can be nice, but you have to touch up a lot more. That ultimate sharp feeling wil become a slick, not-immediately-slicing-feeling very soon. In general, the worse the steel, the sooner this happens.

If your a home cook who loves sharpening, it might still work for you.

I've finished crap steel on hight gritt also (little did I know back then) and they get sharper then at lets say 1000 gritt. But I was touching up more then cutting. Still had my fun in either preparing food as sharpening with this approach.


----------



## Benuser (Jun 22, 2022)

Kawa said:


> It also depends in how much of a hobby sharpening is to you.
> 
> As said above, a high gritt finish (5000-8000 range) can be nice, but you have to touch up a lot more. That ultimate sharp feeling wil become a slick, not-immediately-slicing-feeling very soon. In general, the worse the steel, the sooner this happens.
> 
> ...


If a high grit involves more touch-ups it's more about the steel that doesn't support a high polish because of the lack of edge stability, as in German soft stainless. With simple carbons, hard or soft, I don't see them holding a 2k edge longer than a 8k. And for touching-up a high grit is so much simpler than a coarser one.


----------



## Jovidah (Jun 22, 2022)

There's also the issue of lower grit causing more cell damage leading to faster oxidation. Yes, a hacksaw will also go through tomatos and apples just fine, but that doesn't mean it leads to appetizing looking tomatos and apples 2 hours later.


----------



## Marcelo Amaral (Jun 22, 2022)

Benuser said:


> 400 may feel great, but even when completely deburred, as @cotedupy rightly presupposed, which isn't that simple, it won't hold for a long time: only the top of the serrations have board contact, and as soon as they are worn, the feeling is gone. This explains the addiction to diamond rods amongst the general public.



Cheap stuff's retention is bad no matter what, but i feel the retention is actually worse when higher grit (even 1000 grit) is used to sharpen. No problems deburring on higher grit stones though. 

In my experience, the best way to keep more teeth longer is to do a little thinning behind the edge instead of only sharpening the edge. That holds true for good blades also when thinning them on JNS 300 before starting the progression on naturals.


----------



## Desert Rat (Jun 22, 2022)

To acute of an angle gets sticky on my butcher block. A more obtuse angle works better for me if a knife is sticky on the board.


----------



## M1k3 (Jun 22, 2022)

I've been using a 120 grit + strop on towel edge for the past week. Works great on waxy produce!


----------



## McMan (Jun 22, 2022)

OP, this is a topic that seams to come up again and again.
Here's a similar thread. I think there are others that are out there too. 





What is sharp?


Lately I have been questioning seriously my sharpening skills. I started with a Kurosaki R2 and I learned how to get it sharp on my naniwa professional 3000. The knife not only cut well fresh out of the stones but stayed tomato skin cutting sharp for a week of home cooking at least. I was then...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com




As to 400-grit:





How sharp should I be able to get a knife on 400 grit?


So, I have a vitrified aluminium oxide 100/400 combo stone. After the 400 grit, I can get paper to slice cut paper cleanly but not push cut. Should I get it sharper before progressing to 1k?




www.kitchenknifeforums.com




TLDR, rarely will 400 be the best option, for multiple reasons (as others note above--tough to deburr well enough, won't dull into sharpness, loses steel as compared to higher grits, too toothy, etc.). 400 might work well enough on goofy stainless, where anything past 1000 is like polishing an eraser.
Use is an important consideration too. There's a big difference between cutting 6 tomatoes (home cook) and 600 tomatoes (pro). I might guess that some pros prefer a toothier edge than some home cooks. Maintenance matters, Time to sharpen, Type of product, Type of cutting board. Etc. Etc. Etc.
All this to say, there are a lot of variables. And different people will have different opinions, based on their usages habits, about what a good finishing grit is and why. There is a range. There is no definitive magic number. Regardless, 400 is too low IMO.


----------



## Ruso (Jun 22, 2022)

Maybe they talk ANSI or FEPA which will be about 800JIS.
At 800 JIS you can get a decent edge, for sure.


----------



## KingShapton (Jun 23, 2022)

McMan said:


> Use is an important consideration too. There's a big difference between cutting 6 tomatoes (home cook) and 600 tomatoes (pro). I might guess that some pros prefer a toothier edge than some home cooks. Maintenance matters, Time to sharpen, Type of product, Type of cutting board. Etc. Etc. Etc.
> All this to say, there are a lot of variables. And different people will have different opinions, based on their usages habits, about what a good finishing grit is and why. There is a range. There is no definitive magic number.


----------



## KingShapton (Jun 23, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I've been using a 120 grit + strop on towel edge for the past week. Works great on waxy produce!


Venev 120?


----------



## Jovidah (Jun 23, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I've been using a 120 grit + strop on towel edge for the past week. Works great on waxy produce!


But what grit is your towel?


----------



## M1k3 (Jun 23, 2022)

KingShapton said:


> Venev 120?


Shapton Pro 🫣


Jovidah said:


> But what grit is your towel?


Depends on what I've wiped up with it.


----------



## Matt Jacobs (Jun 23, 2022)

I have had pretty good success with a Chosera 800 and strop but I vastly prefer my 2k Shapton Pro edge. Sometimes I go up to 5k on my Rikka and with good steel it is a nice edge but I think the 2k is perfect in a kitchen. On my cheep stainless I will sometimes do edge leading passes on a 400 grit to "freshen up the edge" and that works ok for a very short amount of time. No way would I be happy stopping at 400 grit on any of my daily use knives.


----------



## KingShapton (Jun 23, 2022)

Matt Jacobs said:


> I have had pretty good success with a Chosera 800 and strop but I vastly prefer my 2k Shapton Pro edge. Sometimes I go up to 5k on my Rikka and with good steel it is a nice edge but I think the 2k is perfect in a kitchen. On my cheep stainless I will sometimes do edge leading passes on a 400 grit to "freshen up the edge" and that works ok for a very short amount of time. No way would I be happy stopping at 400 grit on any of my daily use knives.


2K is the transition between sharpening and polishing.

The Stones (not just Shapton) leave a very good all round edge depending on the skill of the user, pressure used etc.

Of course it's always a matter of personal preference, what is a good edge with bite for one person is not fine enough for another...


----------



## Benuser (Jun 23, 2022)

Matt Jacobs said:


> I have had pretty good success with a Chosera 800 and strop but I vastly prefer my 2k Shapton Pro edge. Sometimes I go up to 5k on my Rikka and with good steel it is a nice edge but I think the 2k is perfect in a kitchen. On my cheep stainless I will sometimes do edge leading passes on a 400 grit to "freshen up the edge" and that works ok for a very short amount of time. No way would I be happy stopping at 400 grit on any of my daily use knives.


There is little difference in grit between both. Both are excellent stones. The Chosera has more versatility. If you use it as a last stone — perhaps with soft stainless — deburring on the Shapton is a bit easier.


----------



## stringer (Jun 23, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I've been using a 120 grit + strop on towel edge for the past week. Works great on waxy produce!



Probably eats your blade height pretty quick. Or do you just go a few strokes at a time?


----------



## EricEricEric (Jun 23, 2022)

It really depends on the steel itself, some of the knifes may not be able to hold an ultra fine edge for very long if they’re too soft or too brittle, however if the knife is hard enough and durable enough it can hold a much finer usable edge and for a much longer time

That’s the reason we use these special types of knives and why they are so expensive (generally speaking, looking at you vendors who double or more the price)


----------



## Benuser (Jun 23, 2022)

Very soft carbons like vintage Sabs benefit from a high polish.
It's all about edge stability, not so much about hardness in se.


----------



## M1k3 (Jun 23, 2022)

stringer said:


> Probably eats your blade height pretty quick. Or do you just go a few strokes at a time?


Few strokes. Just enough to make sure the apex meets. On blue steel tosa nakiri.


----------



## WhiteRabbitAgain (Jun 23, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> I've been using a 120 grit + strop on towel edge for the past week. Works great on waxy produce!



What kind of steel and what's the edge angle?

Edit: just saw you already answered.


----------



## Benuser (Jun 24, 2022)

M1k3 said:


> Few strokes. Just enough to make sure the apex meets. On blue steel tosa nakiri.


Sure, but why with such an extremely coarse stone? I know quite some steels benefit from a few strokes on a coarse stone to start the progression with, but have rather 320-500 in mind.


----------



## M1k3 (Jun 24, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Sure, but why with such an extremely coarse stone? I know quite some steels benefit from a few strokes on a coarse stone to start the progression with, but have rather 320-500 in mind.


By accident really. Got interrupted sharpening. Packed it up, went to work. Decided to try it out and was surprised.


----------



## inferno (Jun 24, 2022)

i never go below 1k. thats coarse enough imo. its almost like a saw as it is.

well except one time.. i had to cut up some rock wool insulation, and here i found the glass 500 edge to be perfect.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 26, 2022)

I only read the first page so forgive me if I'm repeating anything said already. 

I'll start with this, and I may be getting into semantics a bit, but I still feel it's worth mentioning. A Finer finish does not equate to a sharper blade. If someone is able to manage pressure, keep their stone clean, take very accurate strokes, and deburr well. Then a very fine apex can be achieved at fairly low grits. 

On the topic of a finer edge not having bite needed for use in the kitchen. I have a theory that many people accidentally roll their apexes, or round them with either too much pressure on hard finishing stones, or by not keeping a steady angle. A properly sharp blade off of any stone should more or less have a bitey feeling to it. If someone makes a mistake on a finer stone though, it wont impact sharpness as much as on something coarser. So people end up with smoothed over feeling edges. That are more a result of bad sharpening, than going too fine. 

With all that said. I just like to go to a mid grit (400 fepa venev resin bonded diamond), and I use 1 micron diamond spray on a strop. It's pretty fine. Has a bit of shine to it, but it's not that crazy.


----------



## KingShapton (Jun 26, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> A Finer finish does not equate to a sharper blade. If someone is able to manage pressure, keep their stone clean, take very accurate strokes, and deburr well. Then a very fine apex can be achieved at fairly low grits.


----------



## Jovidah (Jun 26, 2022)

Yeah I always thought that muddied the waters a lot in these debates. Just imagining the sharpening stone as a field of rocks I can imagine getting significantly finer results from barely skimming the top with a light touch than you would just pushing it in with hard pressure.


----------



## Kawa (Jun 26, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> I only read the first page so forgive me if I'm repeating anything said already.
> 
> *I'll start with this, and I may be getting into semantics a bit, but I still feel it's worth mentioning. A Finer finish does not equate to a sharper blade. If someone is able to manage pressure, keep their stone clean, take very accurate strokes, and deburr well. Then a very fine apex can be achieved at fairly low grits.*
> 
> ...



Lets be honest. What you are saying here is: when your technique is flawless and you have expert sharpening skills, then a finer stone doesnt give you a sharper edge per se.

For most people for the first _years_ of practising and getting better, generally speaking a higher gritt stone gives you a sharper knive.

It's no use to keep on tyring to get a 800 gritt edge as sharp as a 4000 gritt edge for the first _al lot_ of attempts. Your skills simply arent there to achieve that.

So, yes you are absolutely right.
But in my own experience, since I'm nowhere near expert level, it's way easier to get a screaming sharp knive of a high gritt stone then of a +/- 1000 gritt stone.
I'm sure that counts for a lot of beginners and even semi-advanced sharpeners.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 26, 2022)

Kawa said:


> Lets be honest. What you are saying here is: when your technique is flawless and you have expert sharpening skills, then a finer stone doesnt give you a sharper edge per se.
> 
> For most people for the first _years_ of practising and getting better, generally speaking a higher gritt stone gives you a sharper knive.
> 
> ...


I'm just saying finer doesn't need to equal sharper. Of course it depends on the person sharpening as well.

Also like I brought up in my post. I think the arguements a lot of people bring up for using low to medium grit as the stone they finish on is flawed as well. Because I believe they are likely messing up their edge when going up to the higher grit stones,(by messing up, I mean making mistakes, like using too much pressure or inconsistent angle) because that explains the " smoothed over edge" that a lot of them complain of when polishing to a high grit.

I'm in no way saying what someone should or shouldn't finish their knives on. I'm just pointing out what I've noticed.


----------



## Jovidah (Jun 26, 2022)

The most befuddling aspect of this whole discussion is that everyone's constantly talking about teeth, toothy edge, toothy finish etc, while I have yet to see any high magnification photos of such a thing actually physically existing.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 26, 2022)

EricEricEric said:


> It really depends on the steel itself, some of the knifes may not be able to hold an ultra fine edge for very long if they’re too soft or too brittle, however if the knife is hard enough and durable enough it can hold a much finer usable edge and for a much longer time
> 
> That’s the reason we use these special types of knives and why they are so expensive (generally speaking, looking at you vendors who double or more the price)


This is the reason I really advocate for getting some of the steels we don't see too much on kitchen knives to start being used on them. We see people verify that zdp-189, and hap40, do in fact hold edges for a long time on kitchen knives, but for some reason people don't like the idea of using similar western steels, that would likely do even better. 

Something like 10v, or maybe s125v or 15v if you want to get really crazy. Heat treated for optimum edge stability. I think will really do amazing holding a fine apex. The hardness, plus the large amount of vanadium cardides together. 

I really wish I had the kind of money that would let me support a maker like @Deadboxhero because those guys are really what is going to keep the knife (kitchen or edc) community moving towards better things in the future. In my beliefs.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 26, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> The most befuddling aspect of this whole discussion is that everyone's constantly talking about teeth, toothy edge, toothy finish etc, while I have yet to see any high magnification photos of such a thing actually physically existing.


Yep. Same lol. I honestly don't even entertain the conversation about that aspect anymore. The "microserrations" I've seen on high magnification photos are basically nonexistent when you get above much rougher stones than anyone except appearatly @M1k3 (lol) finishes on.

I mean I get the bitey description. Because you should feel something biting in when you touch the edge of a sharp knife, but I believe that has nothing to do with their being teeth at the apex.


----------



## Kawa (Jun 26, 2022)

Then what is it?

I believe it's the apex touching my nail. So what else can I feel than difference in teethsize/height.

Any scratch is a tooth at apex level I think? Even a 100k polished golden ring has scratches when looking in the right light, making it '100k teeth' when you apex that thing?


----------



## M1k3 (Jun 26, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> Yep. Same lol. I honestly don't even entertain the conversation about that aspect anymore. The "microserrations" I've seen on high magnification photos are basically nonexistent when you get above much rougher stones than anyone except appearatly @M1k3 (lol) finishes on.
> 
> I mean I get the bitey description. Because you should feel something biting in when you touch the edge of a sharp knife, but I believe that has nothing to do with their being teeth at the apex.


Well, the SP 120 is almost to the point of needing refreshing. So it does act a bit finer than it's grit. I forget who it was, but someone passed the HHT challenge off of one.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 26, 2022)

Kawa said:


> Then what is it?
> 
> I believe it's the apex touching my nail. So what else can I feel than difference in teethsize/height.
> 
> Any scratch is a tooth at apex level I think? Even a 100k polished golden ring has scratches when looking in the right light, making it '100k teeth' when you apex that thing?


I think it's most likely the drag felt by the fine apex digging into the material. 

Looking at the super high magnification images of edges available. You can see some scratches making it to an apex, and effecting its height, but for the most part it looks almost more random and jagged than the scratch pattern itself. As if the very shape of the very apex is more determined by the way the burr is broken off leaving behind the fine, or not so fine edge at the end. 


That's just my guess at the results I see when looking at the images.


----------



## inferno (Jun 26, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> I only read the first page so forgive me if I'm repeating anything said already.
> 
> I'll start with this, and I may be getting into semantics a bit, but I still feel it's worth mentioning. A Finer finish does not equate to a sharper blade. If someone is able to manage pressure, keep their stone clean, take very accurate strokes, and deburr well. Then a very fine apex can be achieved at fairly low grits.



from what i have seen on scienceofsharp up to 4k the bevel gets thinner/lower angle, and then after that the apex gets smaller. 
so yes finer stones make stuff sharper. not a surprise really. if this was not true there would be no use for fine stones. 
people would be shaving off 220ies etc. and this is not happening.


----------



## inferno (Jun 26, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> The most befuddling aspect of this whole discussion is that everyone's constantly talking about teeth, toothy edge, toothy finish etc, while I have yet to see any high magnification photos of such a thing actually physically existing.


here you go sir









The Honing Progression


Following the bevel set on the Chosera 1k, the razor was honed on Shapton glass stones; 2k, 4k, 8k and 16k. At each step in the progression, SEM imaging was performed. The side-view ima…




scienceofsharp.com


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 26, 2022)

inferno said:


> here you go sir
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The science of sharp photos were the ones I was thinking of when I made my last post. These ones from the article are a good example of exactly what i was mentioning. The peaks and valleys I'm seeing, don't really match up in a way that seems to relate much to the scratch pattern of the abrasive. I mean, you do catch a rare deep scratch that makes an impact on the apex, but not in the whole microserrstion way. 

And yes. It is physically easier grind a finer apex with finer abrasives. Especially when someone is using the stones correctly. It still doesn't mean finer abrasive= equals sharper edge/finer apex as a blanket statement.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jun 27, 2022)

Been watching this thread with interest.

I agree with @jwthaparc:



jwthaparc said:


> I'll start with this, and I may be getting into semantics a bit, but I still feel it's worth mentioning. A Finer finish does not equate to a sharper blade. If someone is able to manage pressure, keep their stone clean, take very accurate strokes, and deburr well. Then a very fine apex can be achieved at fairly low grits.



For colour, I prefer to be a little less eloquent: "you can't polish a turd". 

There is no point progressing to the next highest grit until you have finished working on the current grit. If you follow that chain to the beginning... it means the most important work is done at _lower grits_. It has been a long time since I spent time on razor forums... but from memory they emphasised the importance of 'bevel setting' more than KKF?? I may have that memory wrong. Either way, it is no less true with kitchen knives. You have to do a good job at the low grits, otherwise you are wasting your time at the higher grits!




M1k3 said:


> Well, the SP 120 is almost to the point of needing refreshing. So it does act a bit finer than it's grit. I forget who it was, but someone passed the HHT challenge off of one.



I guess I'll toot my own horn.... that was me.

Ignoring all the caveats about passing the HHT and sharpness, it is a good motivating tool. @captaincaed's challenge (Just Another Dam Project - Pass HHT on your kitchen knife) is an interesting one to take. But it is even more interesting to extend the challenge. Once you are able to pass the HHT... try to do it on the next lowest grit.... and so on... I believe it helps you learn a lot about pressure, angle control and consistency. The pressure aspect was eye opening for me - low grit stones can leave a surprisingly useful edge.

On the SP120... it is a tale of two stones. When fresh it cuts superfast. I love it for thinning. But 10's of seconds later its speed drops off a cliff and it becomes frustratingly slow (compared to its fresh state). The SP120 is a hard stone and does not release grit eagerly. Once glazed the stone does not cut as fast as you would expect from a '120' stone. Although unconventional... with a light touch you could use it for touch ups.



A final note: steel. I dont really consider myself to be a good sharpener. I am not particularly good with soft steels. I also 'cheat' by zeroing out edges with thinning. All that said, I find it easier to get good results with hard steels. Wear resistance is also a good feature. They are more resistant and forgiving of inconsistent angles. I think this makes it is easier to use a 'light touch' by relative standards... the steel can take a little bit of abuse and maintain its edge geometry. Soft steels are more fragile... you need a very, very light touch indeed otherwise you may roll the edge. I think that makes them harder to learn on....


----------



## Luftmensch (Jun 27, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> The "microserrations" I've seen on high magnification photos are basically nonexistent when you get above much rougher stones than anyone except appearatly @M1k3 (lol) finishes on.





jwthaparc said:


> The peaks and valleys I'm seeing, don't really match up in a way that seems to relate much to the scratch pattern of the abrasive. I mean, you do catch a rare deep scratch that makes an impact on the apex, but not in the whole microserrstion way.



And again... pressure and steel qualities affect this. If you back the pressure off, the abrasive cuts will penetrate the steel less.

In the 120 HHT thread I made the remark:



Luftmensch said:


> Even so... the 120 grit is probably around 100-150μm?? Rough for a polish but still relatively small scale!



I think that is consistent with what you are saying. It is a horrible finish (aesthetically).... but is 150μm still very, very small!! It is hard to imagine that affecting a kitchen knife. Again; if you back off the pressure on a glazed stone, I am sure the abrasives will cut even finer than 150μm.


----------



## inferno (Jun 27, 2022)

it appears the scratch pattern is only a few % depth of the abrasive particle size.
diamond and SiC seems to plow deeper scratches than alox stones









Grit, Scratches and Sub-Surface Damage – Part 1


It has become a somewhat common practice to follow a “progression” of increasingly finer grit abrasives when sharpening a blade. In principle, this process is comparable to the procedur…




scienceofsharp.com


----------



## KingShapton (Jun 27, 2022)

Luftmensch said:


> There is no point progressing to the next highest grit until you have finished working on the current grit. If you follow that chain to the beginning... it means the most important work is done at _lower grits_. It has been a long time since I spent time on razor forums... but from memory they emphasised the importance of 'bevel setting' more than KKF?? I may have that memory wrong. Either way, it is no less true with kitchen knives. You have to do a good job at the low grits, otherwise you are wasting your time at the higher grits!


Agree completely!




Luftmensch said:


> The pressure aspect was eye opening for me - low grit stones can leave a surprisingly useful edge.


Agree completely!

And I agree completely with @jwthaparc


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 27, 2022)

I remember that thread too @Luftmensch I was in the middle of replying to m1ke but I got busy that the fact that it's easy to glaze the 120 over likely made much easier. Not to say it wasn't impressive. 

Off topic. I've seen you talk about your 120 glazing quickly when thinning. I highly recommend you increase your pressure. By A LOT especially when thinning. I never had that particular problem with the 120. Once you get enough pressure going for it to release abrasive, you would be surprised how fast the stone eats metal. It could be helped even more if the stone was freshly conditioned with 36 grit sic powder. You honestly don't need to worry about too much pressure when thinning on the shapton 120 in my experience. Short of snapping the stone in half. 


Back on topic. Steel 1000% makes sharpening easier. That plus thinness behind the edge. The ideal IMO is a very hard, very wear resistant steel, that is very thin. Short of the edge getting chipped because it was used in the wrong application it get sharper easier, and hold an edge much longer than a softer, thicker counterpart. 

Thinness behind the edge makes such a huge difference. I think it is understated. I can argue a super thin maxamet, or 10v knife will sharpen with less effort (with proper abrasives) than a big thick carbon steel knife.


----------



## Jovidah (Jun 27, 2022)

If it's thin enough behind the edge it doesn't even matter if it's sharp or not for a lot of things.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jun 27, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> If it's thin enough behind the edge it doesn't even matter if it's sharp or not for a lot of things.


So true....

You can go very far with a 'blunt' knife that is thin behind the edge....


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 27, 2022)

Luftmensch said:


> So true....
> 
> You can go very far with a 'blunt' knife that is thin behind the edge....


Yeah. I remember seeing a video triple b put out cutting up items with a test blade. It had absolutely no apex, but was so thin behind the edge it was slicing through stuff. 


At least I think it was him that put that video out.


----------



## Kawa (Jun 27, 2022)

I consider myself a factual person. I've seen enough arguments to conclude a finer stone doesn't mean a sharper edge (per se?).

But then my own observation..
Why do all of my knives feel and act sharper of a higher gritt stone then of a low or medium gritt stone?

I'm not talking about 'best use in kitchen environment', thats a different discussion.


----------



## Benuser (Jun 27, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I consider myself a factual person. I've seen enough arguments to conclude a finer stone doesn't mean a sharper edge (per se?).
> 
> But then my own observation..
> Why do all of my knives feel and act sharper of a higher gritt stone then of a low or medium gritt stone?
> ...


Could it have to do with burr remnants? Not to discuss your sharpening, but the first reason I had to look for finer stones was in a more complete deburring.


----------



## stringer (Jun 27, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I consider myself a factual person. I've seen enough arguments to conclude a finer stone doesn't mean a sharper edge (per se?).
> 
> But then my own observation..
> Why do all of my knives feel and act sharper of a higher gritt stone then of a low or medium gritt stone?
> ...



Benuser:
"Could it have to do with burr remnants? Not to discuss your sharpening, but the first reason I had to look for finer stones was in a more complete deburring."

I was just typing the same thing.


A finer stone means a sharper edge assuming the steel and geometry can handle it. But a finer stone is much easier to deburr with. So some of what you are seeing could be just more effective deburring regardless of what's happening at a microscopic level at the apex.


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (Jun 27, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I consider myself a factual person. I've seen enough arguments to conclude a finer stone doesn't mean a sharper edge (per se?).
> 
> But then my own observation..
> Why do all of my knives feel and act sharper of a higher gritt stone then of a low or medium gritt stone?
> ...



One thing to keep in mind is that finer stones are more forgiving. Coarser stones will highlight our inconsistencies much more.


----------



## Ruso (Jun 27, 2022)

Did I read that finer stones != sharper? What 0_o
Its taking the subjective notion of sharpness to next level! Bravo!


----------



## stringer (Jun 27, 2022)

I think that part of what people mean when they say "teeth" is that they want a particular tactile feedback from the product they are cutting. For instance if you are cleaning silverskin off of beef. If you go up much higher than 2k you will lose some proprioception as the knife slides through the product. It becomes more difficult to "feel" the difference between sinew and protein because the knife goes through both the same. Or when chopping veg. Some people really like that "fall through food" feeling, or lack thereof. And I tend to think of what people describe as "toothier" edges on the opposite end of the spectrum from super-refined. You can use this edge to cut anything you like. It will do fine with t But, in the same kind of way, in my experience, this type of edge can be annoying if you are doing something that requires you to differentiate between two textures. Like removing veins and pith from bell peppers or cutting corn off of the cob or skinning salmon.

For me, for board contact knives, the sweet spot is around 2k for synthetic. Above that sticks in the board. It slices towels easier. It is more fragile. It cuts your fingers for in-hand work. And it does not improve retention for heavy board contact. I find pasted strops are even worse for creating these kinds of edges. Naturals are a whole different can of worms. They don't tend to create that industrial laser touch-killing crazy sharpness. Edges tend to be more balanced performance wise, last longer, and are easier to touch up without going through a whole progression again.

I don't know much of anything about the newer diamond tech.



HumbleHomeCook said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that finer stones are more forgiving. Coarser stones will highlight our inconsistencies much more.



Yeah, mostly. But soft steel on a fine hard stone can jack an edge very quickly too. You can improve the edge on soft stainless with a fine hard stone (like a hard Arkansas or razor Nakayama). But you can also roll or round the edge pretty easy.


----------



## superworrier (Jun 27, 2022)

If finishing grit weren't important and people just liked finer grits because it masks deburring technique, I don't see why people would sometimes prefer coarser finishes, which they do.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 27, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I consider myself a factual person. I've seen enough arguments to conclude a finer stone doesn't mean a sharper edge (per se?).
> 
> But then my own observation..
> Why do all of my knives feel and act sharper of a higher gritt stone then of a low or medium gritt stone?
> ...


Most likely you have refined your technique in a way that let's you specifically get the best results using finer stones. That's my guess. 

At the same time though. It is much easier to get the finest possible apex using progressively finer stones. Given the person isn't making mistakes along the way. 

It's just a matter of realizing that with knives from the steel, to the edge itself there are many variables in just about every aspect of it. A lot like life itself, there are rarely ever black and white answers, and there is usually a kit of grey in between.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 27, 2022)

superworrier said:


> If finishing grit weren't important and people just liked finer grits because it masks deburring technique, I don't see why people would sometimes prefer coarser finishes, which they do.


I don't think anyone is necessarily saying that finishing grit doesn't make a difference. Speaking for myself, I think what I'm saying is maybe people's expectations of what a finishing grit will do as far as perfomance are a bit off. 

I think with all things being equal, and in a perfect world where inconsistent angles, problems with pressure, and something that hasn't been brought up much in this thread which is keeping the stone completely free of slurry, and swarf when finishing especially on lower grit stones weren't factored in, and an absolutely perfect apex was achieved on a knife with the only difference between them being the finish. The actual differences wouldn't be very drastic at all. 

There are differences for sure though. I agree with @stringer The things mentioned about tactile feedback are there. Also, how a scratch pattern can accentuate the properties of certain steels are there too. They just aren't these giant night and day differences.


----------



## stringer (Jun 27, 2022)

superworrier said:


> If finishing grit weren't important and people just liked finer grits because it masks deburring technique, I don't see why people would sometimes prefer coarser finishes, which they do.



People are strange


----------



## Wagnum (Jun 27, 2022)

Jovidah said:


> The most befuddling aspect of this whole discussion is that everyone's constantly talking about teeth, toothy edge, toothy finish etc, while I have yet to see any high magnification photos of such a thing actually physically existing.








Edge leading VS. Edge trailing under Magnification – Wicked Edge Precision Knife Sharpener







knife.wickededgeusa.com





Here's one example


----------



## BoSharpens (Jun 27, 2022)

With 60 years of knife sharpening along with my machine shop work, I've come to a couple conclusions on metal edges. I have no way of proving if anything I do is "right" but it seems to work OK for my customers. The few that are really touchy seem to appreciate my work, though I don't work on custom Japanese knives. Shun and similar are all I do.

1. Heavy pressure of grit on steel can induce fractures that later give way to a chip & those fractures are not always visible.
2. Light pressure obviously induces less friction & heat where heat on a very fine edge can do hidden damage.
3. When you get down below a .001" thick edge, causing the edge to "work back and forth" with each flip of the blade can start to work harden the fine metal edge with unknown effects.

People tend to think that hand held stones can't generate enough heat to cause a problem, but when you are down below .001" thick edges and you push hard, you simply do not know the actual temperature you generate & stresses you induce in the metal on the actual edge and what it does to the microstructure.

I suppose it is possible someone has actually used some super sophisticated instrumentation to find out, but I've not heard of it. It would be fun to know.

I do know that if you want a super reliable "ground" surface on cooled surface grinders you have light pressures by way of very light down feed rates or you literally get burn marks.

I use extremely light forces and consistent angles in making very fine edges.

On extremely thin edges a fingernail's pressure on the side of an edge will bend it!

We can obviously get too thin and too sharp to be practical. But then there are bragging rights.


----------



## Benuser (Jun 28, 2022)

BoSharpens said:


> On extremely thin edges a fingernail's pressure on the side of an edge will bend it!


Is it that extreme? It is a perfectly common criterion a blade thin of 0.2mm behind the edge will satisfy, depending on the steel type.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 28, 2022)

BoSharpens said:


> With 60 years of knife sharpening along with my machine shop work, I've come to a couple conclusions on metal edges. I have no way of proving if anything I do is "right" but it seems to work OK for my customers. The few that are really touchy seem to appreciate my work, though I don't work on custom Japanese knives. Shun and similar are all I do.
> 
> 1. Heavy pressure of grit on steel can induce fractures that later give way to a chip & those fractures are not always visible.
> 2. Light pressure obviously induces less friction & heat where heat on a very fine edge can do hidden damage.
> ...


One good thing about waterstones is that under normal sharpening pressure the amount of heat generated is less than just about anything else I know of.

Even using oil stones, or sandpaper I've generated noticable heat trying to get heavy work done. So heat caused by friction with handheld methods is definitely real.

It's also why I'm very much against sharpening using belt grinders. Even with a misting system, I still don't trust that a micron thick sliver of steel isn't getting over heated in a split second, without the person even knowing it happened.

I've blown the temper of knives on a grinder in less than a second doing the primary bevel (after getting down to around .010 behind the edge) by just accidentally apply too much pressure, or moving just a bit too slow.


----------



## BoSharpens (Jun 28, 2022)

Benuser said:


> Is it that extreme? It is a perfectly common criterion a blade thin of 0.2mm behind the edge will satisfy, depending on the steel type.


Using a fingernail sideways pressure on a tip of a real fine edge will bend it when you look at it under a microscope.


----------



## Desert Rat (Jun 28, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> I don't think anyone is necessarily saying that finishing grit doesn't make a difference. Speaking for myself, I think what I'm saying is maybe people's expectations of what a finishing grit will do as far as perfomance are a bit off.
> 
> I think with all things being equal, and in a perfect world where inconsistent angles, problems with pressure, and something that hasn't been brought up much in this thread which is keeping the stone completely free of slurry, and swarf when finishing especially on lower grit stones weren't factored in, and an absolutely perfect apex was achieved on a knife with the only difference between them being the finish. The actual differences wouldn't be very drastic at all.
> 
> There are differences for sure though. I agree with @stringer The things mentioned about tactile feedback are there. Also, how a scratch pattern can accentuate the properties of certain steels are there too. They just aren't these giant night and day differences.


Well we know that a coarse stone can approximate a fine stone with light pressure. Wasn't it the science of sharp guy that honed a straight on a coarse diamond plate and had photos to go with it?
Not sure what your point is?


----------



## Benuser (Jun 28, 2022)

BoSharpens said:


> Using a fingernail sideways pressure on a tip of a real fine edge will bend it when you look at it under a microscope.


Really no need for a microscope and nothing extreme about it. On any decently thin blade you may see a bulge, as said depending on the steel type.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 28, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> Well we know that a coarse stone can approximate a fine stone with light pressure. Wasn't it the science of sharp guy that honed a straight on a coarse diamond plate and had photos to go with it?
> Not sure what your point is?


My point is the big differences we think we notice in the use of these stones is likely something like confirmation bias, possibly they are also reflections of the technique of the person that was sharpening, and about 1000 other variables that can change what the end result we get will turn out like. 

To explain my point a bit better. I believe a fine apex, whether the scratch pattern is coarse, or polished, will act very similar considering that the geometry of both are identical. I believe there will be noticable differences even then, but they won't be as dramatic as I think many of us believe. I think that once geometry starts to get changed around a bit, plus the finish of the apex, the differences may become more pronounced.


----------



## jwthaparc (Jun 28, 2022)

So can we all agree that anyone who isn't finishing on a venev 400, and stropping with leather with 1 micron diamond spray is wrong? 

That was the point of this thread right?


----------



## M1k3 (Jun 28, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> So can we all agree that anyone who isn't finishing on a venev 400, and stropping with leather with 1 micron diamond spray is wrong?
> 
> That was the point of this thread right?


Sure! Just going to toss everything else out like I'm chucking a sickle.


----------



## Ruso (Jun 28, 2022)

jwthaparc said:


> My point is the big differences we think we notice in the use of these stones is likely something like confirmation bias, possibly they are also reflections of the technique of the person that was sharpening, and about 1000 other variables that can change what the end result we get will turn out like.
> 
> To explain my point a bit better. I believe a fine apex, whether the scratch pattern is coarse, or polished, will act very similar considering that the geometry of both are identical. I believe there will be noticable differences even then, but they won't be as dramatic as I think many of us believe. I think that once geometry starts to get changed around a bit, plus the finish of the apex, the differences may become more pronounced.


I dunno, may be its just me; but without any scientific evidence I would pick thousands years of observational knowledge over some person’s opinion on a forum.


----------



## cotedupy (Jun 29, 2022)

Kawa said:


> I consider myself a factual person. I've seen enough arguments to conclude a finer stone doesn't mean a sharper edge (per se?).
> 
> But then my own observation..
> Why do all of my knives feel and act sharper of a higher gritt stone then of a low or medium gritt stone?
> ...




The biggest factor affecting this is cutting motion. Even quite small differences in style / technique will have a significant impact on whether someone prefers finer or coarser finishes.

*Everything about cutting anything is about how friction works*. And cutting style has a _huge _impact.


----------



## Benuser (Jun 29, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> The biggest factor affecting this is cutting motion. Even quite small differences in style / technique will have a significant impact on whether someone prefers finer or coarser finishes.
> 
> *Everything about cutting anything is about how friction works*. And cutting style has a _huge _impact.


Absolutely. Look at the different geometries, edges and level of refinement push cutting vs. 'guillotine and glide' require.


----------



## Desert Rat (Jun 30, 2022)

Does anyone change the scratch pattern direction while sharpening to suit their cutting style?


----------



## stringer (Jun 30, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> Does anyone change the scratch pattern direction while sharpening to suit their cutting style?



I do not. But I always finish with long sweeping edge leading strokes on each stone in the progression. And with extra long sweeping edge leading strokes on the final stone in the progression. So the scratch pattern is always whatever you get from long sweeping strokes. I find this is the best way for me to reduce burr and build a final micro-convexed apex. I am not sure how I would even go about changing the direction of the scratch pattern with my technique.


----------



## cotedupy (Jun 30, 2022)

Desert Rat said:


> Does anyone change the scratch pattern direction while sharpening to suit their cutting style?




I asked something similar a while back, I think the general gist of replies was: 'not really worth worrying about'.






Sharpening Strokes...


I'm unsure whether this question is blindingly obvious, somewhat niche, or completely irrelevant. But if I was a betting man I'd probably back all three to come home... I can do an edge-leading stroke like this, going from the bottom right to the top left: I can also do an edge leading...




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


----------



## Desert Rat (Jun 30, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I asked something similar a while back, I think the general gist of replies was: 'not really worth worrying about'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I thought maybe some fans of toothy edges might go to the trouble.
I've played with it some, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze for me either but I'm just a home cook so I'm not cutting volume.


----------



## Benuser (Jun 30, 2022)

I only noticed that grooves almost parallel to the edge seem to end in weak points. They occur when thinning at the edge at the long side of the stone. As I use push cutting, forward and pulling slicing, and never completely polish out the scratches of a previous stone, I want the scratch pattern to be perpendicular to the edge. The pattern you get with edge leading stokes over the entire stone surface. I can't tell whether it really matters.


----------



## inferno (Jul 1, 2022)

when i read this thread i get the impression that some people think that a 220 edge is somehow just as sharp as a 12k edge. is that so? 

i can inform you that this is wrong. its not even on the same planet. never ever gonna happen no matter how long you try. ever. 

ever.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jul 2, 2022)

stringer said:


> But I always finish with long sweeping edge leading strokes on each stone in the progression. And with extra long sweeping edge leading strokes on the final stone in the progression. So the scratch pattern is always whatever you get from long sweeping strokes. I find this is the best way for me to reduce burr and build a final micro-convexed apex.



Similarly.... I tend to do these on each stone before moving to the next - i guess a way of deburring and evening the bevel before the next stone?? I dunno... but it feels right. If the final stone is 3K or above... long sweeping strokes might be all I do! I will switch between edge leading and edge trailing. But the last few strokes are usually edge trailing without slurry or much water... sort of like stropping or a honing rod (this works for me and hard steels).



stringer said:


> I am not sure how I would even go about changing the direction of the scratch pattern with my technique.



How do you do sweeping strokes?

I must have got this idea from straight razor sharpening?? I do mine a bit like the rolling X-stroke [1, 2, 3] - except with pretty extreme handle angles (maybe 20-30° from parallel with the top or bottom of the stone). The idea is to keep as much of the edge in contact with the stone as possible - so I use the stone length/diagonal. This is my preference for finishing...

By this stage I am approaching the end of sharpening and checking sharpness with my finger pads or finger nails. If I want to do more work on the heel or tip, I might do that with pressure on one half of the sweep (tip or heel as appropriate). Or... I might use a less extreme handle angle and change the speed of the blade moving across the stone (side to side, not top to bottom). For example, if I wanted to focus on the last half of the edge, I might move from the tip to the middle in the first third of the stone leaving two thirds of the stone (more abrasion) for the middle to the heel. I dont do this often... Usually long even sweeps are fine...


----------



## Luftmensch (Jul 2, 2022)

inferno said:


> when i read this thread i get the impression that some people think that a 220 edge is somehow just as sharp as a 12k edge. is that so?



I hope not!!!

But.... I suppose new sharpeners might overestimate how much you can correct poor low grit edges with higher grit stones (i.e. progress through the grits too quickly)? In other words, you need to achieve a pretty good 220 edge (but not perfect) before you can get that awesome 12K edge.... Seems obvious I know!!!

Of course... a 220 edge will never be like a 12K edge. But a really, really well done 220 edge might end up being very close to a 1000 edge. After setting the bevel and getting a good apex... we are really just talking about levels of polish. For most kitchen tasks, that is not so necessary. Compared to razors, kitchen knives occupy a _relatively_ low end of the grit spectrum - it is not unreasonable to stop at 1000-3000.

For any combination of steel and bevel geometry increasing the grit (perfectly) will increase the sharpness. But for kitchen knives it is diminishing returns. If your kitchen knife is thin, you might get 70% utility off 400 grit.... 90% utility off 1,000 grit.... 95% utility off 3,000 grit.... 99% utility off 8,000 grit.... 99.5% utility off 12,000 grit....

Depending where your cost-benefit preferences kick in... you might feel that for all practical intents and purposes a 1,000 grit edge is 'just a sharp' as a 12K edge.... (even though they strictly speaking aren't). To me this is some measure of what 'too sharp' is.... wasted effort on stones. But tying this post full circle.... Since kitchen knives only need a progression of 2/3 stones, if you are really, really good with that 1,000 grit stone... it might produce results a lot more like the 3,000 grit stone (eliminate one progression step)!!



One thing is for sure.... my one and only desert island stone would definitely be a low grit stone!!!


----------



## captaincaed (Jul 2, 2022)

I notice a difference in tooth direction. I finish with the same sweeping strokes. Angles the teeth back towards my hand. Draw cuts bite much faster than push cuts, better for initiating cuts. But the technique to reverse that would feel so strange I can't imagine doing it.


----------



## Benuser (Jul 2, 2022)

Luftmensch said:


> One thing is for sure.... my one and only desert island stone would definitely be a low grit stone!!!


I don't like the idea of having to perform daily maintenance on a coarse stone. It will considerably reduce the knives' life span. Deburring on a coarse stone isn't my favourite part of the sharpening procedure. I hope I have a piece of Blue Belgian in my pocket when landing on a desert island.


----------



## Jovidah (Jul 2, 2022)

Weirdos. I'd rather have a functional satelite phone...


----------



## nwshull (Jul 2, 2022)

I think when you take a knife to a grit where the edge is very sharp off the stone but does not last very long under normal wear and tear and it begins to require too frequent returns to stones is a problem. That's different for use case and user preference.


----------



## Carl Kotte (Jul 2, 2022)

I’m in a ’How sharp is sharp enough?’ mind set. My personal answer: when the knife is fun and easy to use. I hardly sharpen my knives though (home user). I just use a ceramic rod for touch ups. Makes cutting fun and easy.


----------



## Benuser (Jul 2, 2022)

I'm quite aware you at least know what you're doing when using a rod. For those who only want to avoid stones, here a little warning, though. Nothing as easy as creating an unwanted microbevel — or leaving a fat burr. What happens when problems occur: again, the rod. It looks so simple, it is not, but easily creates big troubles.


----------



## Jovidah (Jul 2, 2022)

Actually there is one part where I think 'too sharp exists'... butchering / trimming. I notice that if I have a fresh off the stone hair popping razor sharp edge it's actually counterproductive since it just tears through everything without distinction. Last time I actually dug out a duller knife because it worked better.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jul 3, 2022)

Benuser said:


> I don't like the idea of having to perform daily maintenance on a coarse stone. It will considerably reduce the knives' life span. Deburring on a coarse stone isn't my favourite part of the sharpening procedure. I hope I have a piece of Blue Belgian in my pocket when landing on a desert island.



I find @Jovidah's response to be brilliant  

I also forgot to mention... you don't actually have a knife in the desert island hypothetical.... I was just choosing a low grit stone because they are softer... You could it as a pillow or something??



Ha! I know what you mean.... but this also goes back to pressure control. Still... even with naturals, I would prefer a fast washita than a super hard surgical ark. 

I guess the point of the (silly) desert island thought experiment is to explore compromised decisions. I was just underscoring my preferences: you can do a lot more with the first 50-70% percent of the 'sharpness' progression than the last 10-20%.


----------



## cotedupy (Jul 3, 2022)

Luftmensch said:


> I guess the point of the (silly) desert island thought experiment is to explore compromised decisions.




I'm afraid you're not getting a knife or a stone...

The point is actually to imagine yourself dying slowly of dehydration, hunger, and exposure, and then decide which 8 gramophone records you would want to accompany that. You are also allowed a book, though it _must _be the Complete Works of Shakespeare. No choice on that one.


----------



## Carl Kotte (Jul 3, 2022)

Benuser said:


> I'm quite aware you at least know what you're doing when using a rod. For those who only want to avoid stones, here a little warning, though. Nothing as easy as creating an unwanted microbevel — or leaving a fat burr. What happens when problems occur: again, the rod. It looks so simple, it is not, but easily creates big troubles.


The possibilities of achieving poor results with a bad technique are deliciously endless: the rod (stewart) is no exception.


----------



## Luftmensch (Jul 5, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I'm afraid you're not getting a knife or a stone...
> 
> The point is actually to imagine yourself dying slowly of dehydration, hunger, and exposure, and then decide which 8 gramophone records you would want to accompany that. You are also allowed a book, though it _must _be the Complete Works of Shakespeare. No choice on that one.



That is actually pretty close to my ideal desert island scenario.

Fortunately I have given this a lot of thought and I know what phonographs I would bring.... it would be the first 5% of the Complete Works of Shakespeare in audio form.


Said using my Sir Ian McKellen voice:

_Be not afeard. This isle is full of noises,
Sounds and sweet airs that give delight and hurt not.
Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices
That, if I then had waked after long sleep,
Will make me sleep again; and then, in dreaming,
The clouds methought would open and show riches
Ready to drop upon me, that when I waked
I cried to dream again._


----------



## cotedupy (Jul 5, 2022)

Luftmensch said:


> That is actually pretty close to my ideal desert island scenario.
> 
> Fortunately I have given this a lot of thought and I know what phonographs I would bring.... it would be the first 5% of the Complete Works of Shakespeare in audio form.
> 
> ...




Excellent stuff! Caliban steals the play with that one.

Though Ariel has a look in too I think...

_Full fathom five thy father lies
Of his bones are coral made
And those are pearls that were his eyes.
Nothing of him that doth fade
But doth suffer a sea-change 
Into something rich and strange.
Sea-nymphs hourly ring his knell._


[I've possibly slightly mis-remembered that, but I'm sure I've got the gist!]


----------



## Luftmensch (Jul 6, 2022)

cotedupy said:


> I've possibly slightly mis-remembered that, but I'm sure I've got the gist



If you quoted that 'off the dome'.... wow!

I did the lazy internet thing and


```
ctrl + c
```

Great play though. For some reason my school thought it would be a good idea to go through some of the Henry plays (why these ones and not the other more interesting plays escapes me)... I remember we were asked to memorise one of Henry's rousing speeches for homework:

_Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
...._

This was the only substantial Shakespeare passage I committed to memory. Years later, I have forgotten the majority of it.... yet I do remember being the only knob in the class who actually did the homework. I was somewhat humiliated that I was dumb enough to stick out like a sore thumb and have to repeat the lines for the class. The rest is pretty good


```
ctrl + c
```

_...
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man,
As modest stillness and humility;
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger:
Stiffen the sinews, conjure up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage:
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect;
Let it pry through the portage of the head,
Like the brass cannon; let the brow o'erwhelm it
As fearfully as doth a galled rock
O'erhang and jutty his confounded base,
Swill'd with the wild and wasteful ocean.
Now set the teeth and stretch the nostril wide;
Hold hard the breath and bend up every spirit
To his full height. On, on, you noblest English,
Whose blood is fet from fathers of war-proof!_


----------



## ModRQC (Jul 6, 2022)

Just very simply: when you know it’s well done and still don’t like it.

Preference of tooth or stones, grits, steels, techniques, positioning in a progression, all can be discussed greatly but the matter of the question won’t ever be answered but by oneself.


----------

