# Toyama Knives



## Hamesjo (Dec 20, 2019)

Hi everyone, I was curious if anyone had information about where Toyama knives are available besides from Japanese Natural Stones. Google search hasn't led to anything and I'm wondering if his offerings exist anywhere else


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## J.C (Dec 20, 2019)

Nope.. only exist in JNS store so far. Or maybe try BST


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## toddnmd (Dec 20, 2019)

Or perhaps look into Watanabe. Highly similar.


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## Matus (Dec 20, 2019)

Many of Watanabe knives are made by Toyama, thus the similarity. Toyama knives can only be found online @ JNS or in some local stores in Japan. 

Watanabe is a vendor (not a knife maker) of knives, sharpening stones (he has a lot of knowledge and is one of the few reliable sources for natural sharpening stones) and even jewelry and since recently sells his knives via several western vendors, but not via local stores in Japan. 

However - browse around here - you will find ample information and feedback on Toyama knives


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## Oui Chef (Dec 20, 2019)

Matus said:


> Many of Watanabe knives are made by Toyama, thus the similarity. Toyama knives can only be found online @ JNS or in some local stores in Japan.
> 
> Watanabe is a vendor (not a knife maker) of knives, sharpening stones (he has a lot of knowledge and is one of the few reliable sources for natural sharpening stones) and even jewelry and since recently sells his knives via several western vendors, but not via local stores in Japan.
> 
> However - browse around here - you will find ample information and feedback on Toyama knives


Which stores out of curiousity?
Will be in nihon soon


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## Matus (Dec 20, 2019)

Oui Chef said:


> Which stores out of curiousity?
> Will be in nihon soon



I must admit I do not know the answer. The information comes from Maksim so I suppose he knows more, but he is now on a vacation and thus probably not easy to reach.


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## Oui Chef (Dec 20, 2019)

Matus said:


> I must admit I do not know the answer. The information comes from Maksim so I suppose he knows more, but he is now on a vacation and thus probably not easy to reach.


Cheers


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## ynot1985 (Dec 20, 2019)

You can find Toyama knives at other places besides JNS. You just need to look hard enough online


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## Hamesjo (Dec 20, 2019)

Thank you guys for the info. I browsed a decent amount here and was trying to clear up whether Watanabe was an apprentice maker himself or of Toyama makes both lines. In any case I have one of his gyutos and it performs like a champion..definitely going to nab more


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## kerotan (Dec 20, 2019)

Matus said:


> Many of Watanabe knives are made by Toyama, thus the similarity. Toyama knives can only be found online @ JNS or in some local stores in Japan.
> 
> Watanabe is a vendor (not a knife maker) of knives, sharpening stones (he has a lot of knowledge and is one of the few reliable sources for natural sharpening stones) and even jewelry and since recently sells his knives via several western vendors, but not via local stores in Japan.
> 
> However - browse around here - you will find ample information and feedback on Toyama knives



I always wondered why Toyama and Watanabe knives look the same and reading the posts (said and unsaid) in this forum, I made my own conjectures about it. Little did I know that Watanabe doesn't make knives. So his photos of forging knives is all for show. I'm so appalled


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## labor of love (Dec 20, 2019)

Matus said:


> Many of Watanabe knives are made by Toyama, thus the similarity. Toyama knives can only be found online @ JNS or in some local stores in Japan.
> 
> Watanabe is a vendor (not a knife maker) of knives, sharpening stones (he has a lot of knowledge and is one of the few reliable sources for natural sharpening stones) and even jewelry and since recently sells his knives via several western vendors, but not via local stores in Japan.
> 
> However - browse around here - you will find ample information and feedback on Toyama knives


You noted once before that someone other than Toyama makes Watanabe KU finished knives, is this only true of cheaper Watanabes? Or does that include KU knives in the professional series?


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## Chicagohawkie (Dec 20, 2019)

kerotan said:


> I always wondered why Toyama and Watanabe knives look the same and reading the posts (said and unsaid) in this forum, I made my own conjectures about it. Little did I know that Watanabe doesn't make knives. So his photos of forging knives is all for show. I'm so appalled


Really? Watanabe is just a brand? Can definitely say I’m not surprised though.


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## valgard (Dec 20, 2019)

labor of love said:


> You notes once before that someone other than Toyama makes Watanabe KU finished knives, is this only true of cheaper Watanabes? Or does that include KU knives in the professional series?


The pro line including KU were/are Toyama, the cheaper KU are definitely not Toyama.

My KU gyuto has same steel, cladding, profile, and even the same low spots as the kasumi.


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## Matus (Dec 20, 2019)

Guys, it is not like this was mentioned for the first time. But I would hate to see people being ‘appalled’ by Watanabe. He does not claim anywhere that he is making knives, he simply has his own brand. I do not know how many different suppliers he has. But one of them is Toyama and that is no secret. He sells good knives (his nakiri became a legend) and that is what matters. 

I am actually wondering whether he did some of those 125SC knives he had (still has?) - as those looked very ‘hand made’. I know he bought a lot of 125SC steel directly from Achim Wirtz, but we have not seen a complete line of knives made with that steel yet, but such projects may take more time. Who knows.

He is also knowledgeable about natural stones I myself have bought a few from him and they have all been excellent.


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## labor of love (Dec 20, 2019)

Watanabe Kanji is cooler than Toyama’s technically speaking. Also the handle upgrade options, direct ordering custom requests...when in doubt order Watanabe.


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## jacko9 (Dec 20, 2019)

I ordered a second Nakiri Pro from Watanabe earlier this month and will be interested to see if it's very similar to the one I bought last year. This one is going to be a Christmas gift for my granddaughter. While both of them are 180mm long I found that he also sells shorter versions of that Nakiri 120 and 150mm anybody try those?


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## daveb (Dec 20, 2019)

Matus said:


> Guys, it is not like this was mentioned for the first time. But I would hate to see people being ‘appalled’ by Watanabe. He does not claim anywhere that he is making knives, he simply has his own brand. I do not know how many different suppliers he has. But one of them is Toyama and that is no secret.



While I've seen this before I'm still not convinced that it's fact rather than learned conjecture. If Sinchi was savvy enough to rep different makers as his own, I would think he would have gone to decent handles / horn awhile back.


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## parbaked (Dec 20, 2019)

Matus said:


> Guys, it is not like this was mentioned for the first time. But I would hate to see people being ‘appalled’ by Watanabe. *He does not claim anywhere that he is making knives, he simply has his own brand*. I do not know how many different suppliers he has. But one of them is Toyama and that is no secret. He sells good knives (his nakiri became a legend) and that is what matters.
> 
> I am actually wondering whether he did some of those 125SC knives he had (still has?) - as those looked very ‘hand made’. I know he bought a lot of 125SC steel directly from Achim Wirtz, but we have not seen a complete line of knives made with that steel yet, but such projects may take more time. Who knows.
> 
> He is also knowledgeable about natural stones I myself have bought a few from him and they have all been excellent.



Something is wrong here...
The Watanabe English website clearly states that the knives they sell are "_painstakingly crafted by the Watanabe family_."
It also states that Shinichi makes the Special and Custom knives himself.
The bio section of their website also says that Shinichi and his two brothers are the 6th generation of a blacksmith family.
There are also photos of a person, I assume to be a Watanabe, actually forging a knife.
Just to be clear, the Watanabe brand do claim to make the knives that they sell.
I can't imagine why Shinichi, who is so honest in a business as shady as natural stones, would lie about making knives.

I am really curious about your source of information, and if it is complete and accurate.
Is it possible that part of the story is lost in translation?


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## bahamaroot (Dec 20, 2019)

I don't doubt that some blades are sourced from other smiths but I do doubt that Shinichi doen't make knives at all and Watanabe is just a "brand".


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## labor of love (Dec 20, 2019)

Shinichi makes knives, just not the best ones he seems to be famous for(allegedly).

Watanabe family may imply a lineage of knife making tradition that is passed from an elder Watanabe and currently is produced by Toyama (also allegedly).


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## Matus (Dec 20, 2019)

The information comes of course from Maksim and Toyama obviously does not have the need to keep his relationship with Watanabe private - otherwise neither me nor anyone else would get to it. There is an older mirror version if the Watanabe English webpage that shows Toyama in his workshop:
http://www13.plala.or.jp/knife/english/pro/index.htm
The photos have very low resolution, but comparing to Maksim’s video from one of his visits to Toyama makes it clear.

As I said - Watanabe might be making some knives. But given his very fast responses to emails, he can’t be spending too much time on n the workshop. Whether some if his family members make knives is something I can not say anything about. He did inherit a large workshop, but according to Maksim it us geared towards lower end large volume production and supposedly it is not in use.

And about the handles - it is all a matter of the source, it is actually not very common to find knives with good quality handles as there is shortage of them in Japan.

If you check out the Japanese version of his site, you will find only 2 links (that after 1 more click both lead to the same page) of kitchen knives - a set of 5 knives. The description is neutral, the kanji appears different:
https://translate.googleusercontent...700283&usg=ALkJrhgJwD3jceqMUYzwSCISuWJw67voXw

On the main page Iwao Watanabe is mentioned as a smith, but it is not clear what knives does he make.

Rest of knives are outdoor knives and the origin is not clear - at least with the automatic English translation.

I personally do not care much who makes knives for Watanabe (as I do not care who makes Kochi line for Jon or who did StainLess Itinomonn line for Maksim) - I am just trying to get the message over, that Shinichi is not a knife maker, but a vendor.


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## CiderBear (Dec 20, 2019)

ynot1985 said:


> You can find Toyama knives at other places besides JNS. You just need to look hard enough online



Could you share that information?


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## labor of love (Dec 20, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Could you share that information?


http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/

Your welcome


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## Chuckles (Dec 20, 2019)

Well played.


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## aszma (Dec 20, 2019)

Matus said:


> Many of Watanabe knives are made by Toyama, thus the similarity. Toyama knives can only be found online @ JNS or in some local stores in Japan.
> 
> Watanabe is a vendor (not a knife maker) of knives, sharpening stones (he has a lot of knowledge and is one of the few reliable sources for natural sharpening stones) and even jewelry and since recently sells his knives via several western vendors, but not via local stores in Japan.
> 
> However - browse around here - you will find ample information and feedback on Toyama knives


Wait so watanabe is a vendor? For years i thought he was the actual maker of the knives so why are toyamas so much more expensive than wats if toyama makes some of his knives?


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## Oui Chef (Dec 20, 2019)

You think the 'famous headchef' of a kitchen is cooking every steak?

Afaik if you buy a Watanabe blade you might get one made by one of his masters.

If it was made by the man who taught him (at least partially) then to me the essential essence that would make it a Watanabe knife is there.

Either way you see it, I STILL need to try both of their knives but I'll be in Sanjo soon enough and will shake both their hands


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## parbaked (Dec 20, 2019)

Matus said:


> I am just trying to get the message over, that Shinichi is not a knife maker, but a vendor.



If Shinichi makes all the knives on the Specials pages and all the custom knives, as he claims, then he is a knife maker and more than just a vendor.

I agree that there is very limited information on the Japanese site, but that's not their online store or business site.
If you look through the Specials section of the English web store, there are dozens of unique kitchen knives that Shinichi claims to have made.

He even claims to make the damascus for some of the knives on this page:
http://www.kitchen-knife.jp/special/damascuschefknife.htm

I am not trying to argue, but I am genuinely confused that your statements completely contradict Shinichi's.
Saying he is not a knife maker is calling him a liar, and I just don't see any evidence for that...just my opinion.


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## lemeneid (Dec 20, 2019)

Here we go again...

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/tf-or-watanabe.38102/


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## jacko9 (Dec 20, 2019)

Well I can only say based on the Nakari Pro I got from him is that it's a fantastic blade. I also got the handle with the horn and the matching saya. The fit of the saya is perfect.


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## labor of love (Dec 20, 2019)

Everything is a secret. But also every time we attempt to unravel secrets we are chastised for spreading misinformation.
Mazaki is young, he works hard. The old men might enjoy taking it easy for once in their life. Mazaki makes all the Sanjo classics.


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## ynot1985 (Dec 20, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Could you share that information?



Just type the kanji of suuji Toyama on google 

Some places I remember sell hunters and others sell single bevels

I have seen them in shops in Tokyo

About 280usd for 210 stainless 

and like 310usd for 240 stainless


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## sleepy (Dec 20, 2019)

Having just gotten a honyaki from Watanabe, I'm pretty sure that Shinichi's the one who made it based on our email correspondence regarding the purchase.


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## jacko9 (Dec 20, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Having just gotten a honyaki from Watanabe, I'm pretty sure that Shinichi's the one who made it based on our email correspondence regarding the purchase.




Was that a special order? Single or double edge blade?


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## sleepy (Dec 20, 2019)

jacko9 said:


> Was that a special order? Single or double edge blade?



Yeah, it was a special order. Double bevel (gyuto)


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## aboynamedsuita (Dec 20, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Having just gotten a honyaki from Watanabe, I'm pretty sure that Shinichi's the one who made it based on our email correspondence regarding the purchase.



I’ve ordered several Watanabe Honyaki over the years and my somewhat educated guess is they are also Toyama. Same hamon, profile, box, handles (even some of us will remember the “handle smell”).


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## jacko9 (Dec 20, 2019)

I guess I wouldn't be offended if Watanabe used Toyama as a supplier as I have knives from both. My Toyama is a tall 150mm Petty from JNS and my Watanabe is a 180mm Nakiri Pro - both excellent! I am interested in getting a Honyaki 240mm Gyuto and have been shopping around.


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## sleepy (Dec 20, 2019)

aboynamedsuita said:


> I’ve ordered several Watanabe Honyaki over the years and my somewhat educated guess is they are also Toyama. Same hamon, profile, box, handles (even some of us will remember the “handle smell”).



Hmm interesting - you've ordered both Toyama honyakis and Watanabe honyakis and compared them to each other and all of those details were the same?


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## Barmoley (Dec 20, 2019)

If you take toyama and Watanabe pro gyutos iron clad blue, stainless clad blue or honyaki of the same size 240 vs 240 for example and same time period you will see that they are identical. As identical as hand made knives can be that is. Grind, profile, weight, performance, etc. If there wasn't a different kanji you wouldn't know which is which. So for all intents and purposes they can be interchangeable regardless of who makes what, since for some reason that is a touchy subject. 180 Watanabe pro nakiri is different though, clearly made by someone else or to a totally different design language.


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## M1k3 (Dec 21, 2019)

Mazaki makes everything non-honyaki. Mizuno makes everything Honyaki. Case closed.


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## Jville (Dec 21, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> Mazaki makes everything non-honyaki. Mizuno makes everything Honyaki. Case closed.



What do you mean by Mizuno makes everything Honyaki? j Obviously, they make more than just honyakis, so I was just confused by the meaning you were trying to convey.


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## M1k3 (Dec 21, 2019)




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## F-Flash (Dec 21, 2019)

Jville said:


> What do you mean by Mizuno makes everything Honyaki? j Obviously, they make more than just honyakis, so I was just confused by the meaning you were trying to convey.



Mazaki makes all the non honyaki Mizunos.

Mizuno makes all the honyaki mazakis.

This is joke.


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 21, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> View attachment 67193



That was one of the ugliest yet most instructive drawings I’ve seen. [emoji1303][emoji16]


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## M1k3 (Dec 21, 2019)

Imgur


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## sleepy (Dec 21, 2019)

Barmoley said:


> If you take toyama and Watanabe pro gyutos iron clad blue, stainless clad blue or honyaki of the same size 240 vs 240 for example and same time period you will see that they are identical. As identical as hand made knives can be that is. Grind, profile, weight, performance, etc. If there wasn't a different kanji you wouldn't know which is which. So for all intents and purposes they can be interchangeable regardless of who makes what, since for some reason that is a touchy subject. 180 Watanabe pro nakiri is different though, clearly made by someone else or to a totally different design language.



Huh, gotcha. I wonder what it means then when Shinichi says he thinks my new Watanabe honyaki is "the best honyaki in his life" lol. Maybe just marketing, I guess.


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## GorillaGrunt (Dec 22, 2019)

I’m pretty sure Mizuno is just Mazaki with a wig and false teeth


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## jacko9 (Dec 22, 2019)

This forum would be much more helpful if the sarcasm was toned down a little bit. I come here to get information on vendors and makers to be better informed when I spend my hard earned money but - this is the internet 2019!


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## labor of love (Dec 22, 2019)

If it’s on the internet then it’s true.
-Steve Jobs


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## Hamesjo (Dec 22, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Huh, gotcha. I wonder what it means then when Shinichi says he thinks my new Watanabe honyaki is "the best honyaki in his life" lol. Maybe just marketing, I guess.



I actually emailed him about ordering a honyaki earlier this week and he replied saying they don't make those. It's pretty curious...

Coming back to my original question, I really enjoy the Toyama I have and I'd love to nab a 240 gyuto. My concern is that JNS releases them sparsely while watanabe takes direct orders for gyutos. But if they're basically interchangeable in terms of quality I guess I'm just being fussy about all of this


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## labor of love (Dec 22, 2019)

Get a wat. Especially if you have particular ideas or requests concerning size and weight


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## Barmoley (Dec 22, 2019)

They are interchangeable regarding quality. Buy whichever you can find cheaper or that is available.


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## Barmoley (Dec 22, 2019)

sleepy said:


> Huh, gotcha. I wonder what it means then when Shinichi says he thinks my new Watanabe honyaki is "the best honyaki in his life" lol. Maybe just marketing, I guess.


It might very well be the best honyaki of his life, that statement alone does not mean he made it or that he is lying. My interactions with him have been great and the gyuto I got from him was excellent too. The toyomas I had from Maksim were same.


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## labor of love (Dec 22, 2019)

Theoretically practice makes perfect. I’d expect most makers to assume their most recent efforts are their best to date. Right?


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## sleepy (Dec 22, 2019)

Hamesjo said:


> I actually emailed him about ordering a honyaki earlier this week and he replied saying they don't make those. It's pretty curious...
> 
> Coming back to my original question, I really enjoy the Toyama I have and I'd love to nab a 240 gyuto. My concern is that JNS releases them sparsely while watanabe takes direct orders for gyutos. But if they're basically interchangeable in terms of quality I guess I'm just being fussy about all of this



I believe Watanabe stopped taking honyaki orders a while ago, but sometimes they do come up in his Special section on his website.


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## Oui Chef (Dec 22, 2019)

jacko9 said:


> This forum would be much more helpful if the sarcasm was toned down a little bit. I come here to get information on vendors and makers to be better informed when I spend my hard earned money but - this is the internet 2019!


I don't think it'd get more helpful necessarily. Besides the banter is super low key here anyway, the most outrageous it gets is like 3 members running around saying toyanabe. I personally love the quips, sarcasm and inside memes and humour that kkf produces, as few and far between that it all is. We're not doing heart surgery here, its an online kitchen knife forum


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## Jville (Dec 22, 2019)

Yeah, even though everyone is pretty much a knife nerd here, it's good to have some humor.


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## GorillaGrunt (Dec 22, 2019)

Mazaki also wrote all my jokes


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## labor of love (Dec 22, 2019)

Bro, the mazaki makes all knives meme is here to stay. Watoyamashigakato is the truth.


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## Paul6001 (Dec 23, 2019)

I’m a cynical man. I used to be a reporter and it’s an occupational hazard. I’m also a newcomer to the J knife world and hardly the most reliable of sources. Nor am I speaking specifically about either Toyama or Watanabe. End of disclaimer. 

I do bring a fresh set of eyes to this world. And I find the claims of “handmade” knives—or claims of knives made by a family or a small group of masters—to approach the ludicrous.

I have a Wakui gyuto. Do you know how many Wakui knives there are in this world? How many different types and different sizes are sold in different stores around the world? Plus, as I understand it, Wakui makes a boatload of knives that are sold under different names. Akifusa and whatnot. 

I don’t know the number either, but it must run into the thousands. I doubt very much that Toshihiro Wakui has ever seen or touched most of those knives. It’s just not possible. 

I believe that Wakui is part of the Takefu Knife Village. I have no doubt that Wakui has a small operation there, open to tourists, with a furnace and a small group of men hammering on hunks of iron.

Meanwhile, in the industrial exurbs of Tokyo, the real Wakui factory is churning out enough knives to keep all those stores stocked. Maybe not quite on the Wusthof scale, but on a scale that resembles industry, not Santa’s workshop. 

This is pure speculation, but I certainly wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Wakui and dozen other names that pepper this site are owned by Fuji or Yamaha. 

Ever take a wine tasting tour in Napa Valley? All of those quaint family wineries making wine just like the four generations that came before them. And here’s the winemaker himself, who seems to have plenty of time to make chitchat about his personal favorite, the Old Vines Zinfandel which is specially produced from vines that are 75 years old. (You know, back before anyone in California sold wines as varietals and when Zinfandel was considered a garbage grape.)

It won’t be quite as quaint later that night when the voices in the tasting room—hushed, like those in a church—are replaced with the sound of tractor trailers loaded with tons of grapes grown a hundred miles away, downshifting to climb those picturesque Napa hills. 

Of course, none of this matters. I don’t care how the sausage is made, just how it tastes. And my Wakui is delicious.


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## Chuckles (Dec 23, 2019)

I think of it more like the classic session studio bands in American Popular music in the 60’s and 70’s. The Wrecking Crew, Muscle Shoals, Stax Records, Motown etc. Different pockets of hyper productive groups of individual contributors. They work together enough to have a style but every session has its own unique identity based on the commission. 

I am not up to speed on Wakui but feel confident Toyama does not have the kind of market saturation you seem to be suggesting.


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## bahamaroot (Dec 23, 2019)

jacko9 said:


> This forum would be much more helpful if the sarcasm was toned down a little bit. I come here to get information on vendors and makers to be better informed when I spend my hard earned money but - this is the internet 2019!


And we can't have a little fun while being informative?


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## Xenif (Dec 23, 2019)

Paul6001 said:


> I’m a cynical man. I used to be a reporter and it’s an occupational hazard. I’m also a newcomer to the J knife world and hardly the most reliable of sources. Nor am I speaking specifically about either Toyama or Watanabe. End of disclaimer.
> 
> I do bring a fresh set of eyes to this world. And I find the claims of “handmade” knives—or claims of knives made by a family or a small group of masters—to approach the ludicrous.
> 
> ...


Wakui is based out of Sanjo, Niigata
Hes not part of Takefu Co-Op


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## Paul6001 (Dec 23, 2019)

jacko9 said:


> This forum would be much more helpful if the sarcasm was toned down a little bit. I come here to get information on vendors and makers to be better informed when I spend my hard earned money but - this is the internet 2019!



As a sometime target of some of that sarcasm, much of it not meant in fun, I am continually surprised at the seriousness , directness, and level of knowledge shown by most of the membership. Who knew that so many people could know so much and be so passionate about such an obscure topic?


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## M1k3 (Dec 23, 2019)

jacko9 said:


> This forum would be much more helpful if the sarcasm was toned down a little bit. I come here to get information on vendors and makers to be better informed when I spend my hard earned money but - this is the internet 2019!



And more fun if everyone got a free pony!


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## jacko9 (Dec 23, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> And more fun if everyone got a free pony!



Heck I'd be happy with a nice bottle of wine - oh wait I already have that!


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## Oui Chef (Dec 23, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> And more fun if everyone got a free pony!


I think u meant free shig


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## M1k3 (Dec 24, 2019)

jacko9 said:


> Heck I'd be happy with a nice bottle of wine - oh wait I already have that!



That's why you need a free pony!



Oui Chef said:


> I think u meant free shig



Free shigs and ponies for everyone! @Oui Chef is paying!


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 24, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> Free shigs and ponies for everyone! @Oui Chef is paying!


Make mine a Kato, thank you


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## M1k3 (Dec 24, 2019)

Wrong thread?


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## M1k3 (Dec 24, 2019)

LOL crap.... @Oui Chef needs to buy Toyomanabe's.... I mean Watanoma's...


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## Oui Chef (Dec 24, 2019)

Alright watanoma's for everyone except @lemeneid since I know he only wants another TF.


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## lemeneid (Dec 24, 2019)

Oui Chef said:


> Alright watanoma's for everyone except @lemeneid since I know he only wants another TF.


Already have my Watayamanabe Honyaki


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## Nemo (Dec 24, 2019)

Paul6001 said:


> I’m a cynical man. I used to be a reporter and it’s an occupational hazard. I’m also a newcomer to the J knife world and hardly the most reliable of sources. Nor am I speaking specifically about either Toyama or Watanabe. End of disclaimer.
> 
> I do bring a fresh set of eyes to this world. And I find the claims of “handmade” knives—or claims of knives made by a family or a small group of masters—to approach the ludicrous.
> 
> ...



This post contains at least one glaring inaccuracy and some pretty significant assumptions. The industrial and business model of Japanese knifemaking seems very different to the Western business models that I am and I assume, you are, used to.

Please remember that what you post is there forever. People scouring the net for info on knives look at this site and take notice of what is said here. And repeat it elsewhere. This gives us a certain degree of responsibility to not post disinformation. Even in this age of alternative facts. Especially in this age of alternative facts.

Please refrain from posting speculation unless you have a factual basis for making it. In this case, for example, knowledge of Wakui's business network or evidence about which knives he actually makes in his workshop (which as noted is in Sanjo rather than Takefu). Obviously, you should also take care to clearly label it as speculation and it might be nice to describe some of the evidence that you base the speculation on.


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## slickmamba (Dec 24, 2019)

Nemo said:


> This post containds at least one glaring inaccuracy and some pretty significant assumptions. The industrial and business model of Japanese knifemaking seems very different to the Western business models that I am and I assume, you are, used to.
> 
> Please remember that what you post is there forever. People scouring the net for info on knives look at this site and take notice of what is said here. And repeat it elsewhere. This gives us a certain degree of responsibility to not post disinformation. Even in this age of alternative facts. Especially in this age of alternative facts.
> 
> Please refrain from posting speculation unless you have a factual basis for making it. In this case, for example, knowledge of Wakui's business network or evidence about which knives he actually makes in his workshop (which as noted is in Sanjo rather than Takefu). Obviously, you should also take care to clearly label it as speculation and it might be nice to describe some of the evidence that you base the speculation on.



I just assumed that whole post was a joke. But people surprise me all the time


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## daveb (Dec 24, 2019)

Paul6001 said:


> .....about such an obscure topic?



What are you calling "obscure", buckwheat?


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## Paul6001 (Dec 24, 2019)

Nemo said:


> This post containds at least one glaring inaccuracy and some pretty significant assumptions. The industrial and business model of Japanese knifemaking seems very different to the Western business models that I am and I assume, you are, used to.
> 
> Please remember that what you post is there forever. People scouring the net for info on knives look at this site and take notice of what is said here. And repeat it elsewhere. This gives us a certain degree of responsibility to not post disinformation. Even in this age of alternative facts. Especially in this age of alternative facts.
> 
> Please refrain from posting speculation unless you have a factual basis for making it. In this case, for example, knowledge of Wakui's business network or evidence about which knives he actually makes in his workshop (which as noted is in Sanjo rather than Takefu). Obviously, you should also take care to clearly label it as speculation and it might be nice to describe some of the evidence that you base the speculation on.



"I'm a newcomer . . . I'm hardly the most reliable of sources . . . This is pure speculation . . . "

Speaking as a journalist, I think I did a pretty fair job of telling people how trustworthy the information is. As to the the thought that future generations will be traumatized or misled by my misidentification of Mr. Wakui's hometown, I apologize. But I felt secure that the crowd on this site would find great joy in pointing out this inaccuracy, given its glaring of proportions.

Nemo, you are a staff member of this site as well as a moderator. You clearly know more than I. How accurate do you think my speculations are? Don't be afraid to venture into areas that employ business methods different than I learned growing up here in the U.S. of A. I was a fellow in business journalism at Columbia as well as being a generally smart, well-educated guy. You might be surprised at the variety of business models that I'm capable of understanding. In general, I'm guessing that's also true of most of the highly literate—if highly pedantic—members here.


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## Xenif (Dec 24, 2019)

slickmamba said:


> I just assumed that whole post was a joke. But people surprise me all the time


This is just going exactly how Toyamatanabe-watanoyama threads always end up ..... 

"What are we gonna do tonight Brain?"

"The same thing we do every night, Pinky, try to take over the world"


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## Paul6001 (Dec 24, 2019)

Buckwheat? Does that make you Spanky?


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## M1k3 (Dec 24, 2019)

Mazaki-bot.

/thread


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## Kevin Sykes (Dec 24, 2019)

This is purely speculation...but what if? What if Watanabe was actually the one making Toyamas? Why is it always considered the other way around?
-New guy


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## parbaked (Dec 24, 2019)

Kevin Sykes said:


> This is purely speculation...but what if? What if Watanabe was actually the one making Toyamas? Why is it always considered the other way around?
> -New guy



I always thought this makes more sense given the number of knives Watanabe has for sale compared to how hard it is for JNS to keep Toyamas in stock...but what do we know...


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## parbaked (Dec 24, 2019)

Paul6001 said:


> "I'm a newcomer . . . I'm hardly the most reliable of sources . . . This is pure speculation . . . "
> 
> Speaking as a journalist, I think I did a pretty fair job of telling people how trustworthy the information is.


I thought a journalist would do a little research or ask questions before publishing speculative nonsense.
Do some research on how the Japanese knife industry works differently in various regions e.g. Sakai, Sanjo, Takefu & Seki...it's not that hard to get educated on this subject.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 24, 2019)

Fake news


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## lemeneid (Dec 25, 2019)

Paul6001 said:


> "I'm a newcomer . . . I'm hardly the most reliable of sources . . . This is pure speculation . . . "
> 
> I was a fellow in business journalism at Columbia as well as being a generally smart, well-educated guy. You might be surprised at the variety of business models that I'm capable of understanding. In general, I'm guessing that's also true of most of the highly literate—if highly pedantic—members here.







If you are as you claim a journalist from a prestigious school then you must certainly know that what you write has to be responsible and well researched.

What we all read was tabloid trash quality unfortunately.


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## Kevin Sykes (Dec 25, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Bro, the mazaki makes all knives meme is here to stay. Watoyamashigakato is the truth.


Too much sake? Maz makes munetoshi!


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## M1k3 (Dec 25, 2019)

Paul6001 said:


> "I'm a newcomer . . . I'm hardly the most reliable of sources . . . This is pure speculation . . . "
> 
> Speaking as a journalist, I think I did a pretty fair job of telling people how trustworthy the information is. As to the the thought that future generations will be traumatized or misled by my misidentification of Mr. Wakui's hometown, I apologize. But I felt secure that the crowd on this site would find great joy in pointing out this inaccuracy, given its glaring of proportions.
> 
> Nemo, you are a staff member of this site as well as a moderator. You clearly know more than I. How accurate do you think my speculations are? Don't be afraid to venture into areas that employ business methods different than I learned growing up here in the U.S. of A. I was a fellow in business journalism at Columbia as well as being a generally smart, well-educated guy. You might be surprised at the variety of business models that I'm capable of understanding. In general, I'm guessing that's also true of most of the highly literate—if highly pedantic—members here.



Journalist speculating? National Enquirer?


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## Oui Chef (Dec 25, 2019)

To be fair the standard of journalism these days is ****ing shite, as much in aus as in america


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## M1k3 (Dec 25, 2019)

Oui Chef! Slop in the window! Heard!


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## Chuckles (Dec 25, 2019)

Paul6001 seems like a decent guy to me. He welcomes new comers to the forum and is straight forward in expressing that he isn’t the expert that some on KKF are. Let’s not discourage new members from participating or punish them for making the odd misstatement. We’ve all been there. He only has two gyutos. It’ll be a year and half before he can really bottom out on the whole KKF trip. He still has to be taken advantage of on BST, deal with a crazy expensive knife being damaged in shipping, pay a custom maker for a knife that never materializes, and then take a dive into natural stones and stabilized woods and fossilized mammoth teeth. Hopefully he’ll make a few friends along the way. That’s what makes it worth it.... Plus, Santa is watching.


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## J.C (Dec 25, 2019)

Chuckles said:


> Paul6001 seems like a decent guy to me. He welcomes new comers to the forum and is straight forward in expressing that he isn’t the expert that some on KKF are. Let’s not discourage new members from participating or punish them for making the odd misstatement. We’ve all been there. He only has two gyutos. It’ll be a year and half before he can really bottom out on the whole KKF trip. He still has to be taken advantage of on BST, deal with a crazy expensive knife being damaged in shipping, pay a custom maker for a knife that never materializes, and then take a dive into natural stones and stabilized woods and fossilized mammoth teeth. Hopefully he’ll make a few friends along the way. That’s what makes it worth it.... Plus, Santa is watching.



well said..


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## Matus (Dec 25, 2019)

Paul is as welcome to share his theories and speculations as anybody else on this forum. Attacking him because he used to be a journalist goes beyond poor manners.


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## ian (Dec 25, 2019)

+3 to the above. 

@Paul6001 Re Wakui, I think you can’t assume anything about the scale of his operation from the facts that you have. Yes, he’s listed on a bunch of sites, but say even that there are a couple thousand knives of his in circulation. It doesn’t take that long for a blacksmith to finish a single knife. Indeed, you can find vids of Carter doing a nakiri in an hour or two... I don’t remember exactly how long. Even if he makes only one a day, Wakui’s been working for years, so it’s entirely possible he’s made thousands of knives. With a small workshop of people each specializing in a different part of the knife, the numbers could be much much higher. Anyway, I have no idea what his business is really like, but I will trust the image he presents unless the numbers are off by like 2 orders of magnitude. I wonder how many Shuns there are in the world?


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## M1k3 (Dec 25, 2019)

My apologies for my negative comments.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 25, 2019)

Carter states " To date, I have forged and completed over 25,000 knives" Thats definitely more than 1 per day. Knives are generally made in batches, and the practice of many Japanese firms is to have people dedicated to a particular aspect of manufacture ie forging/HT, grinding/sharpening and handle installation. 
btw Shiraki is estimated to have forged over 700,000 blades during his career.


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## labor of love (Dec 25, 2019)

We don’t talk politics here. Against the rules.


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## Paul6001 (Dec 25, 2019)

Given... (insert drivel) ....value.


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## McMan (Dec 25, 2019)

I would speculate that Wakui makes more than one knife a day.

Better still, I would speculate that he doesn’t “make” any—rather a team based on divided labor do, and his role is part of that process.


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## ian (Dec 25, 2019)

@Paul6001 Yea, not sure why everyone’s jumping all over you. (Although yea, we try not bring up politics or say the T word... I learned after the climate change thread that yes, this is actually better than the alternative.)
Something similar about another blacksmith was proposed in some other thread a while ago, although I can’t remember where, and noone jumped over that person. Everyone should be able to speculate, and then people can respond. I personally don’t think there’s a reason to doubt that Wakui’s a small workshop, since it seems totally possible that a small workshop including multiple specialists could output a few knives a day, even more complicated ones than nakiris, and the very speculative numbers we have aren’t off by a factor of 1000 or something. But in any case, we don’t even have any real numbers, so all this is meaningless. Like, all the numbers you are taking as assumptions above could very well be off by factors of 10, in which case the analysis may fail.


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## Gregmega (Dec 25, 2019)

Watanabe makes a mean knife. I don’t know about that Toyama guy tho. Never heard of him.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 25, 2019)

McMan said:


> I would speculate that Wakui makes more than one knife a day.
> 
> Better still, I would speculate that he doesn’t “make” any—rather a team based on divided labor do, and his role is part of that process.


Same way Teruyasu Fujiwara IV operates. Its commonly accepted that the 'tou kou' stamped blades were actually forged by him personally. However his DNA and knifemaking philosophy is in every TF blade as is clear to see.... TFTF


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## Matus (Dec 25, 2019)

Let's leave politics out of this discussion, shell we? 

One should not automatically assume that when they hear a Japanese name related to a knife industry, that it means that it is a one man operation. It is either a brand that orders knives from different workshops/craftsmen, or it is a larger operation/workshop. When it comes to Wakui - I have never heard a statement that it should be a one man show. I would expect (I mean - I am guessing) it would contain a few smiths and many sharpeners. BTW - knife forging & HT are pretty fast - a single smith can forge 100+ knives per day. It is sharpening (grinding) that takes most of the time. It appears very probable that Wakui makes knives for other brands/shops as they offer a wide range of knives with different hagane/jigane and finishes at a very reasonable price and at the same time very good quality.


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## M1k3 (Dec 25, 2019)

I like facts. Not speculation, hearsay or what someone's "Magic 8-ball" says.

Edit: Also like a good joke.

Second addition: I like knives and Stones. Politics, meh. To many feelings involved.


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## ian (Dec 25, 2019)

Aw, I used to love magic 8-balls.

“Did Mazaki make this knife?”

..... “Signs point to yes.”


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## labor of love (Dec 25, 2019)

ian said:


> Aw, I used to love magic 8-balls.
> 
> “Did Mazaki make this knife?”
> 
> ..... “Signs point to yes.”


“Welcome to Sanjo! My name is Naoki Mazaki, can I take your order please?”


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## Barclid (Dec 25, 2019)

ian said:


> +3 to the above.
> 
> @Paul6001 Re Wakui, I think you can’t assume anything about the scale of his operation from the facts that you have. Yes, he’s listed on a bunch of sites, but say even that there are a couple thousand knives of his in circulation. It doesn’t take that long for a blacksmith to finish a single knife. Indeed, you can find vids of Carter doing a nakiri in an hour or two... I don’t remember exactly how long. Even if he makes only one a day, Wakui’s been working for years, so it’s entirely possible he’s made thousands of knives. With a small workshop of people each specializing in a different part of the knife, the numbers could be much much higher. Anyway, I have no idea what his business is really like, but I will trust the image he presents unless the numbers are off by like 2 orders of magnitude. I wonder how many Shuns there are in the world?


Shun recently released a "limited run" with the total being north of 5000 pieces. Having a few thousand pieces from small makers in Japan should not be that surprising to anyone.


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## CiderBear (Dec 25, 2019)

Wait, what was this thread about again?


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## Paul6001 (Dec 25, 2019)

I should have guessed that there was a “no politics” rule. Sorry about that.

daveb edit: A quick perusal of the rules and you wouldn't have needed to guess.


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## M1k3 (Dec 25, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Wait, what was this thread about again?



Toyomanabe Watanoma.


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## ian (Dec 25, 2019)

CiderBear said:


> Wait, what was this thread about again?



Merrrrrrry Christmas To ya, ma Friend!


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## David7777777777 (Dec 25, 2019)

Going back to the basic original idea of the post. I haven't seen or looked for Toyama knives outside of JNS. But I've owned at least five total. The current keeper is a 270mm Dami gyuto.
So I have a pretty good frame of reference for the shape, steel, finish etc over a span of about 7 years.

In that time I've also owned comparable Watanabe knives.
Honestly, and it might be the level of quality the JNS expects or just a little bit more love. They are pretty much the same knife. (Speaking to a standard 240mm clad blue gyuto).

With a little bit of time on the board and more time with stones and polish it's very easy to tune them to be the exact same knife. So, for the original poster that started this thread, if you can't get a Toyama because they are out of stock... definitely pickup a Watanabe and with a few small tweaks it's definitely a great knife with a very obvious profile and design.


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## jacko9 (Dec 26, 2019)

Merry Christmas all - The question about Toyama knives and Watanabe knives is interesting. I only have one Toyama a 150mm Petty I got from JNS and it is fantastic even though it's pretty tall for a Petty (about 35.3mm if I can recall) it really looks like a short Gyuto. The Watanabe I have had for a year is the 180mm Nakiri Pro version in Blue Steel. Both knives are very thin and extremely good cutters. I liked the Nakiri Pro so well I bought one for my Granddaughter for Christmas unfortunately Shinichi just shipped it out today but my original was in near perfect new condition with the matching Saya so my granddaughter brought that home last night. She loves it and posted a short video on Facebook this morning! Bottom line - I like both Toyama and Watanabe.


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## bahamaroot (Dec 26, 2019)

jacko9 said:


> I only have one Toyama a 150mm Petty I got from JNS and it is fantastic even though it's pretty tall for a Petty (*about 30mm if I can recall)* it really looks like a short Gyuto.


The Toyama is 35mm tall. 30mm is not tall for a 150mm petty, pretty average. You have to hit around 34+ for it to be considered tall.


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## ian (Dec 26, 2019)

bahamaroot said:


> The Toyama is 35mm tall. 30mm is not tall for a 150mm petty, pretty average. You have to hit around 34+ for it to be considered tall.



It’s listed as 35 on JNS.


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## jacko9 (Dec 26, 2019)

ian said:


> It’s listed as 35 on JNS.



My bad to just guess yesterday - I measured the Toyama Petty from JNS this morning and it's 35.3mm tall


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 26, 2019)

My plan was to catch & release, I wanted to experience the Toyama hype but not keeping it, as it’s kind of boring looking.

I caught it but was unable to release it because it beat every knife I have, including Kurosaki, TF & Mazaki. Mazaki with its extra weight & thinness behind the edge was able to hang with Toyama on potato & thick carrots, then it wedged on a watermelon. I brought out the Toyama 210, it freakin went through it as if it’s Tofu, unbelievable.

The only problem was that Toyama has a small neck, not enough to squeeze a finger through for a firm “choke-hold”, my unprofessional style of holding 210. In the end, I solved the problem by making a TF-like finger notch.


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## labor of love (Dec 26, 2019)

I’ve heard second hand that you can custom order a....full size “neck”. In other words reaching the top and bottom of the handle.
But yeah, I agree...don’t like that little thing either.


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## valgard (Dec 26, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I’ve heard second hand that you can custom order a....full size “neck”. In other words reaching the top and bottom of the handle.
> But yeah, I agree...don’t like that little thing either.


You can see my two custom Watanabe with wide neck here in the picture, the KU is in the middle, the kasumi is to the right.


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 26, 2019)

valgard said:


> You can see my two custom Watanabe with wide neck here in the picture, the KU is in the middle, the kasumi is to the right.View attachment 67506



If I’m not mistaken we can also see a foot, dressed in a sock, wearing flip flops. That’s the right way to wear flip flops if you ask me. Zoidberg from Futurama would agree, if he were real and could wear socks.


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 26, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> If I’m not mistaken we can also see a foot, dressed in a sock, wearing flip flops. That’s the right way to wear flip flops if you ask me. Zoidberg from Futurama would agree, if he were real and could wear socks.


I've seen worse


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## Carl Kotte (Dec 26, 2019)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I've seen worse



Yeah, but I really do think it is the right way to go, faux pas or not [emoji16][emoji1303]


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## labor of love (Dec 26, 2019)

Yeah I’ve definitely post things for sale with the same angle but barefoot.


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## parbaked (Dec 26, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> Yeah, but I really do think it is the right way to go, faux pas or not]



Only if also rocking tabi socks, which @valgard appears to be doing...


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## Xenif (Dec 26, 2019)

One word for your guys 
: Canada


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## parbaked (Dec 26, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Yeah I’ve definitely post things for sale with the same angle but barefoot.


That's only acceptable because you sell nice knives at nice prices...


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## Corradobrit1 (Dec 26, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Only if also rocking tabi socks, which @valgard appears to be doing...


This is also acceptable.


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## Gregmega (Dec 27, 2019)

Xenif said:


> One word for your guys
> : Canada



There’s no time for fashion when your life is on the line daily.


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## valgard (Dec 27, 2019)

Xenif said:


> One word for your guys
> : Canada


This [emoji23], never did that in Cuba, but my apartment isn't the warmest place on earth...


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## ma_sha1 (Dec 27, 2019)

My mighty Yoyama had finally fall, on the potato slice release test that is.

It had beaten most of my other knives on various cutting tests, I think partially due to tall blade gives thinner profile & s-grind reduces sticktion. The s-grind on the right side helps within food release too in most situations. 

However, thin potato slices were able to deform & stick to the smooth Toyama blade like glue, hugging the s-curve, it’s the only one that I can’t shake the slices of, thus, it lost to TF. Youshikane & Kurosaki in this specific test. 

How’s your Toyama’s potato thin slice test regarding to food release?


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