# Tiny Bevel's and how to create/maintain them?



## SolidSnake03 (Oct 24, 2015)

Hey KKF,

So I'm trying to determine what it is about knives with this tiny, almost impossible to see edge bevel that results in them cutting so well and how this bevel is formed. I'm had a few knives recently, Tanaka Blue #240mm gyuto, Masakage Shimo 165mm Nakiri and Itinomonn 165mm Santoku that all had this incredibly small bevel just at the edge. The bevel looks to extend no more than 1-2mm up from the edge and all three of these knives have cut like crazy. These knives have far surpassed the cutting performance with their edges (Masakage was OOTB edge and the website owners, James and Maxim, sharpened their respective knives) of anything I have been able to create myself. I have found that when I'm sharpening the bevels seem to be a good deal bigger and I just can't seem to get something to perform as effortlessly as these.

So, my question is two parts really
#1. How do you go about creating such a small bevel since I seem to be unable to do some myself
#2. Is there something specific about this style of edge bevel that makes it cut like crazy or is the stones used or what?

As a further note, I was able to borrow a Misono Dragon 240mm Gyuto a while back that had this same type of tiny tiny bevel and it too cut like heck. The knife was heavily patina'd and had been used for a while so I know the user had been maintaining this type of bevel themselves therefore I know it's do-able just don't know how....

Anyhow, hope you guys can help out with this. I'm finally trying to actually gain a better understanding of what exactly is going on when sharpening and what is resulting in the edges I like so please bear with my incessant questioning on this and stones and what not :laugh:


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## chinacats (Oct 24, 2015)

When you thin a knife during sharpening the edge bevels will naturally become smaller. As a knife begins to need thinning, the edge bevels will get wider with each sharpening. Thus the reason your knives cut better with the smaller edge bevels is that the knife is thinner behind the edge and the same sharpening angle results in smaller edge bevels.
Cheers


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## SolidSnake03 (Oct 24, 2015)

I don't know if that is really it though because 2 of the knives I mentioned really weren't that thin behind the edge when looking at the choil. Both the Tanaka and Itinomonn are not really "that thin" behind the edge compared to say the CCK Chinese cleaver I owned (Jon sharpened and thinned it yet it still have larger bevels and didn't cut as well) or even the Fuji FKM 240mm gyuto I have. The Fuji FKM is stupid thin behind the edge after some sharpening and thinning and yet it has larger bevels and doesn't cut nearly as well as the others. The CCK, Fuji as well as some of the lasers I've owned (Kono HD and Gesshin Ginga) were arguable thinner behind the edge just from looking at them yet didn't cut as well.

The Shimo I will give you the thin behind the edge thing, that knife basically disappears behind the edge, it is stunningly thin behind the edge and one of the best cutting knives I've ever owned, just not a nakiri fan >_<

Anyhow, point is that two of the knives really aren't that thin either behind the edge or at the spine or really anywhere on the knife (minus the tip's). Other things I've owned most definitely eclipses them in terms of thinness just about everywhere on the knife. Granted I don't have calipers to verify but holding the knives together and doing a "sight down the choils" with them lined up is really telling, and the only one that thinness really applies to is the Shimo.


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## SousVideLoca (Oct 24, 2015)

The width of your bevel is just the geometric difference between the edge and the steel above the edge. That is, a knife with a thick grind sharpened at 15 degrees will have a wider bevel than a very thin knife sharpened at 15 degrees.


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## JDA_NC (Oct 24, 2015)

It's interesting that you didn't find the same with your Ginga or Kono. My Gingas have had almost no visible bevel yet still cut really, really well.

But I know what you're talking about. I've seen them sometimes where they don't feel like much on the fingers, but still cut through things like butter. It also helps with edge retention in my experience.

I tend to start sharpening behind the edge, on the face, thinning it out. Then I'll slightly raise the spine, put pressure on the edge itself & be mindful to press with edge away strokes. I don't think it's so much to do with the knife being thin... although this helps too... but reaching a more true apex. And keeping an accurately low angle. I found it helps me at least. I usually finish my knives with a microbevel because it helps burr removal & retention.

It will scratch up your knives but you can always polish it out.


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## XooMG (Oct 24, 2015)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle

Choil views won't likely tell you much. If the sharpening angle is "normal" and the edge is thick, the bevel will be high.

Many edges may be chunky 5-10mm from the edge and still convex to a near zero at the edge.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Oct 24, 2015)

XooMG said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle
> 
> Choil views won't likely tell you much. If the sharpening angle is "normal" and the edge is thick, the bevel will be high.
> 
> Many edges may be chunky 5-10mm from the edge and still convex to a near zero at the edge.




This.

'Thin behind the edge' can mean a whole lot of different things to different people. The edge bevel height is simply a function of the thickness of the blade at the intersection of whatever angle bevel you put on it. Remember the unsharpened gyuto video? That blade had NO bevel, but still performed flawlessly. Added sharpness would have helped with the pepper skins of course, but as far as how it cut, the bevel didn't play a part at all.

Basically, if you're finding one blade performs better than another, look at the overall geometry for the first 5-10mm, not only what's going on right at and above the bevel. The bevel height can be an indicator when taken in conjunction with other things, but taken by itself...it's useless.


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## natto (Oct 25, 2015)

Thinning
Asymmetry  The REAL DEAL
This may help:scratchhead:


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## cheflarge (Oct 25, 2015)

Micro bevel? :cool2:


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## dands (Oct 25, 2015)

This is a great question actually. I picked up a 270mm ashi hamono a while back and while yes, it is considered a laser, it too has the almost non-existent bevel that OP talks about. My knife was pure factory, all it had seen was a few strops on felt before it was sold to me at bernal cutlery. I bought the knife on sale so I haven't really had to use it yet but it cuts like a freaking dream. To be completely honest, the OOTB edge was WAY sharper than even my Takeda aogami. So yeah, if any advanced sharpeners have any information about these magic bevels (I for one am assuming that these bevels can only be set at the factory) it'd be much appreciated by a couple of us !


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## SousVideLoca (Oct 25, 2015)

dands said:


> This is a great question actually... if any advanced sharpeners have any information about these magic bevels (I for one am assuming that these bevels can only be set at the factory) it'd be much appreciated by a couple of us !



The question was answered literally three posts above yours. There is no magic to basic geometry.

If you encountered a knife with a factory bevel that was incredibly sharp, it was sharpened incredibly well at the factory. Some knives are, some knives aren't.


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## chiffonodd (Oct 25, 2015)

The way I am trying to conceptualize this is that it is less about the bevel being "small" and more about the bevel being properly "blended" as it transitions from bevel to blade through the thinning process. It is the abrupt change in angle from bevel to a too-thick being the edge blade face that creates large bevels. 

(Does not apply the same way to large bevel knives, eg kono fujiyama, etc)


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## chinacats (Oct 25, 2015)

dands said:


> This is a great question actually. I picked up a 270mm ashi hamono a while back and while yes, it is considered a laser, it too has the almost non-existent bevel that OP talks about. My knife was pure factory, all it had seen was a few strops on felt before it was sold to me at bernal cutlery. I bought the knife on sale so I haven't really had to use it yet but it cuts like a freaking dream. To be completely honest, the OOTB edge was WAY sharper than even my Takeda aogami. So yeah, if any advanced sharpeners have any information about these magic bevels (I for one am assuming that these bevels can only be set at the factory) it'd be much appreciated by a couple of us !



Your Takeda is thicker behind the edge. You can't work your way around geometry no matter how you look at it.

Edit to say didn't see where SVL already answered this.


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## dands (Oct 25, 2015)

SousVideLoca said:


> The question was answered literally three posts above yours. There is no magic to basic geometry.
> 
> If you encountered a knife with a factory bevel that was incredibly sharp, it was sharpened incredibly well at the factory. Some knives are, some knives aren't.



I'd say that my ashi was sharpened at around 10-12* and if I were to set that low of an angle, I'd assume that a wider rather than narrower bevel would be set on the blade compared to if I were to sharpen the exact same blade at say 18-20* (less surface contact with stone, thus smaller visible bevel, no?). Help me out here...


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## SousVideLoca (Oct 25, 2015)

That's exactly it: if you sharpened the same blade at a more obtuse angle, you'd have a smaller bevel. But the bevel width itself is relative to the grind of the steel _above_ the edge - so if your Ashi was sharpened at 10* and had a tiny bevel, you can safely assume that the steel directly above that edge wasn't far off from 10* already. That same 10*, cut into a knife with a more obtuse grind above the edge, will produce a wider bevel.


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## dands (Oct 25, 2015)

SousVideLoca said:


> That's exactly it: if you sharpened the same blade at a more obtuse angle, you'd have a smaller bevel. But the bevel width itself is relative to the grind of the steel _above_ the edge - so if your Ashi was sharpened at 10* and had a tiny bevel, you can safely assume that the steel directly above that edge wasn't far off from 10* already. That same 10*, cut into a knife with a more obtuse grind above the edge, will produce a wider bevel.



That made it 360* . Thank you sir.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Oct 25, 2015)

dands said:


> This is a great question actually. I picked up a 270mm ashi hamono a while back and while yes, it is considered a laser, it too has the almost non-existent bevel that OP talks about. My knife was pure factory, all it had seen was a few strops on felt before it was sold to me at bernal cutlery. I bought the knife on sale so I haven't really had to use it yet but it cuts like a freaking dream. To be completely honest, the OOTB edge was WAY sharper than even my Takeda aogami. So yeah, if any advanced sharpeners have any information about these magic bevels (I for one am assuming that these bevels can only be set at the factory) it'd be much appreciated by a couple of us !



Please don't take this wrong...I've been accused of coming across as condescending a few times this week and don't want you to mistake me...but edge bevel height in and of itself plays zero part in how the knife cuts, other than in regards to how it affects geometry. Look at a katana...it has no edge bevel. Many convexed EDC knives have no edge bevel either. The edge bevel is simply a 'jump start' on the geometry. Now...if you were to take two different knives, and sharpen them side by side at the precise same angle...the height of the edge bevel can tell you some things about the geometry in that area. But other than that, it doesn't say anything in and of itself.

If I take a knife that's 1mm thick 1cm above the edge...but is still 1mm thick 1mm above the edge...and sharpen it at a 10° angle, the bevel will be a certain height. If I take a knife that is 1mm thick 1cm above the edge, but is .05mm thick 1mm above the edge...that edge bevel will be MUCH shorter.

Now, reset both knives. Sharpen them at a 20° angle. See how much shorter the bevel is on the 1mm thick edge? It'll be almost invisible on the .05mm thick edge. 

Do you see what I mean? Edge bevel height is an indicator of other things in the geometry, if you know the angle it was applied at. If you don't...it tells you almost nothing. Yes, knives with thinner edge bevels tend to cut better...because the knife tends to be thinner behind the edge. That's not a guarantee though, as the area above that has to be taken into consideration as well.

Hope that helps.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Oct 25, 2015)

Sorry, for some reason it didn't show me all of the previous posts until after I replied lol.


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## Benuser (Oct 25, 2015)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> Please don't take this wrong...I've been accused of coming across as condescending a few times this week and don't want you to mistake me...but edge bevel height in and of itself plays zero part in how the knife cuts, other than in regards to how it affects geometry. Look at a katana...it has no edge bevel. Many convexed EDC knives have no edge bevel either. The edge bevel is simply a 'jump start' on the geometry. Now...if you were to take two different knives, and sharpen them side by side at the precise same angle...the height of the edge bevel can tell you some things about the geometry in that area. But other than that, it doesn't say anything in and of itself.
> 
> If I take a knife that's 1mm thick 1cm above the edge...but is still 1mm thick 1mm above the edge...and sharpen it at a 10° angle, the bevel will be a certain height. If I take a knife that is 1mm thick 1cm above the edge, but is .05mm thick 1mm above the edge...that edge bevel will be MUCH shorter.
> 
> ...


Sums it up quite well I would say.


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## SousVideLoca (Oct 25, 2015)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> Sorry, for some reason it didn't show me all of the previous posts until after I replied lol.



Forum has been being weird for me today too. Your explanation is much more comprehensive than my own.


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## CrisAnderson27 (Oct 25, 2015)

Benuser said:


> Sums it up quite well I would say.





SousVideLoca said:


> Forum has been being weird for me today too. Your explanation is much more comprehensive than my own.



Thanks guys .


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## Benuser (Oct 25, 2015)

You're most welcome, Cris. A little warning to those who referred to factory edges: these are not always meant to be actually used as such, but are meant to ease further sharpening by the end-user, or, for him, the retailer. I've seen incredibly thin edges that wouldn't hold, or strictly symmetric edges of some 6 degree per side on evidently asymmetric blades where an inclusive angle of some 25 to 30 would be more appropriate.


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## SolidSnake03 (Oct 26, 2015)

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful and informative replies. I will be going through all these posts and trying to learn/understand as much as I can from them. What I've read so far makes sense, just trying to digest the information and process it. I'll definitely be back with more questions soon enough just been a crazy weekend so I haven't gotten a chance to think of more.


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## Badgertooth (Nov 10, 2015)

CrisAnderson27 said:


> Please don't take this wrong...I've been accused of coming across as condescending a few times this week and don't want you to mistake me...but edge bevel height in and of itself plays zero part in how the knife cuts, other than in regards to how it affects geometry. Look at a katana...it has no edge bevel. Many convexed EDC knives have no edge bevel either. The edge bevel is simply a 'jump start' on the geometry. Now...if you were to take two different knives, and sharpen them side by side at the precise same angle...the height of the edge bevel can tell you some things about the geometry in that area. But other than that, it doesn't say anything in and of itself.
> 
> If I take a knife that's 1mm thick 1cm above the edge...but is still 1mm thick 1mm above the edge...and sharpen it at a 10° angle, the bevel will be a certain height. If I take a knife that is 1mm thick 1cm above the edge, but is .05mm thick 1mm above the edge...that edge bevel will be MUCH shorter.
> 
> ...



Nailed it, and not condescending at all but really illustrative. I have done all my major experimenting with sharpening on one of the above mentioned K&S blue #2 240m Tanakas. All of which has led intuitively to the same conclusions (and some pretty sick edges). There is something magical about those Tanakas though. The grind and HT at that price point is hard to top.


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## limpet (Nov 11, 2015)

Great explanations in this thread.

When I sharpen on my waterstones, I start out with the "usual angle", which is what my muscle memory remembers. After a stroke or two I inspect the edge. If the newly sharpened primary edge is tall/wide, I begin to suspect that the blade is a bit thick behind the edge. If it's very tall, I will start to consider some thinning, but it depends on how the knife is cutting as well. Maybe I'm holding the angle too low? I don't want to mess up a working geometry.

When sharpening the back side (left side) of the blade, the primary edge often gets smaller (not as tall as on the other side). This is asymmetry and my muscle memory has learned to lower the angle a bit when sharpening this side. 

And then we have distal taper, when the blade gets thinner closer to the tip (including behind the edge), which is why you have to adjust the angle when sharpening near the tip.

Well, this is how I understand it anyway. I may be wrong since I only started sharpening on waterstones about 14 months ago.


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## Benuser (Nov 11, 2015)

I start at the lowest angle I can and raise the spine little by little till I've reached the very edge and raise a burr. The idea is to move the entire previous configuration a very little towards the spine.


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## Benuser (Nov 11, 2015)

@limpet:Why would one apply a lower angle on the backside of an asymmetric blade?


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## limpet (Nov 12, 2015)

Benuser said:


> @limpet:Why would one apply a lower angle on the backside of an asymmetric blade?


Hum, it seems I've been doing things a bit wrong on the backside. :O From now on I will sharpen the primary edge on the backside in a higher angle. Looked at some pics showing asymmetric edges and now it all makes sense. For some reason, I always thought that the primary edge followed the same asymmetry as the secondary edge. Now I feel a bit stoopid... :laugh:


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## Benuser (Nov 12, 2015)

There's hardly a general rule. Do as you like. I prefer a higher angle to balance friction on both sides a bit. So you reduce steering. And stability will increase a lot without much performance loss. If you want to fine tune an edge, first verify for steering. That said, a lot of users are used to serious steering, compensate for it and aren't aware of it anymore.


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## efaden (Nov 12, 2015)

Interesting topic...


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## rhymeswithoranj (Nov 12, 2015)

Indeed...


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## SolidSnake03 (Nov 12, 2015)

If you want to really experience serious steering take a tojiro itk or Mac bread knife and cut something hard but use it with your left hand to cut. I've used that to get a feel for what bad steering is to understand how it feels and looks and then to know what to avoid when sharpening a Gyuto or something else


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## Benuser (Nov 13, 2015)

What I do is doing as would I cut a carrot, without any pressure and in the opposite direction of my normal one, with a loose wrist. The blade will take the inclination that's the most favorable for going through the hard stuff, most some five or ten degree to the right. Reason to reduce friction on the right side by removing the right shoulder and further thinning behind the edge. And adding a bit of friction at the left side by building a straight bevel at a higher angle with a shoulder at the left one.


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## Benuser (Nov 13, 2015)

What I meant by cutting in the opposite direction: pulling where I would normally slice forward.


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## joyless (Nov 14, 2015)

efaden said:


> Interesting topic...



indeed, i was wondering about tiny bevels myself


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## SolidSnake03 (Nov 15, 2015)

So if I'm left handed and sharpen my knives a bit more to the left side should it pull to the left then? Or is this based more on the grind of the blade itself than the edge and edge bevels?


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## Benuser (Nov 15, 2015)

How does it steer in your hand?


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## SolidSnake03 (Nov 28, 2015)

Oh man, just saw this was posted and I never got back to it, my mistake.

Benuser, the only time I've noticed significant steering with a knife in use was it turn right. As in, the knife edge and blade face seemed to pull to the right toward the food and toward my guide fingers/hand. Never noticed or observed a blade turning or seeming to pull out and away from the food, only into it.


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## Benuser (Nov 28, 2015)

If it steers counter-clockwise you may consider thinning behind the edge at the left side, and ease the shoulder. That's what I did when sharpening for a left-handed.


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## SolidSnake03 (Nov 28, 2015)

Yes, the steering does seem to be counter-clockwise, hard foods like carrot, potato and apple seem to make it most evident. When your describing left side are you assuming the knife is held by the handle or tip toward you? For example, would the left side be the left side when holding the knife by the handle with the tip out like your cutting?

Just want to make certain we are referring the same "left side" to make sure I'm going about this right. I do appreciate the advice by the way, will be giving it a shot.


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## Benuser (Nov 28, 2015)

Just to be clear: the left side or left face is the one at the left side when you hold the knife in the usual position, with the tip away from you. The right face will usually carry the kanji inscription, unless it's an inverted blade for left-handers.


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## SolidSnake03 (Nov 28, 2015)

Thanks for the clarification, I assumed that was the case but always like to double check. Will mess around with this a bit this weekend to see about the steering, thanks!


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## Benuser (Nov 28, 2015)

You're so welcome!


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## SolidSnake03 (Dec 5, 2015)

Sorry it took a while to respond, been working on a few other projects as well. Regardless, this seems to have helped, I was leery to take too much metal off at first so I just did a bit but it seems to have improved some. I will definitely work a bit more on it but early impressions are positive, thanks!


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## spoiledbroth (Dec 5, 2015)

Benuser said:


> Just to be clear: the left side or left face is the one at the left side when you hold the knife in the usual position, with the tip away from you. The right face will usually carry the kanji inscription, unless it's an inverted blade for left-handers.



I think it should be noted not all left side marking indicate inversion. Some makers just do it on all their knives. Just like not all English markings are intended for Japanese domestic market, or vice versa.


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