# What makes a good Aoto?



## copperJon (Nov 9, 2016)

I may or may not have picked up one of Maksim's Aoto's last night, as it fits the bill for my desire for a pre-finisher. I currently have a big tsushima that I have never really warmed up to, and so pulled the trigger with the sale. But...what makes a good Aoto? Do all aotos come from a specific mine? strata? I seek the knowledge of you jnat wizards out there.


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## daveb (Nov 9, 2016)

Among the Jnats from JNS I'm aware of red, green and blue aotos. The red is the most highly regarded though they seem to range the spectrum from vgood to soso. I have a green that I like quite well to finish work gyuto and as a preface to finishing stones for suji and yani. One of our more knowledgeable (but less tactful) members borrowed it and told me it sucks. No experience with a blue.

You know that Maxim's site and the discussion in his subforum provide a wealth of information?

With that I'll cede the floor to those smarter about them than I am.


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## copperJon (Nov 9, 2016)

daveb said:


> You know that Maxim's site and the discussion in his subforum provide a wealth of information?



Yep, but I didn't find the answer I was looking for, and I put the thread here for more generic discussion, as there are numerous ways to procure these stones.

Thanks for the info. I've also seen white Aoto as well...so we have, red, white, green, and blue "blue stone".


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## rick_english (Nov 9, 2016)

Trick question. There are no good aotos. I've tried a dozen or so over the years, and gave them all up. There's a reason they're cheap compared to other stones........


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## panda (Nov 9, 2016)

Haha I didn't say it sucks, just wasnt for me. Lol!! I don't like red aoto either. I had a really good vintage blue aoto, hard stone with very little impurities which is not common for aoto.

Best aoto I tried was called a 'san aoto' tiny stone, I figured it was like a center cut filet of aotos cause it was super pure and clean, feedback was silky smooth around 4-5k edge.


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## Asteger (Nov 9, 2016)

'Aoto' just means 'blue stone' and so going by that the name's used flexibly. However, when people talk of 'aoto' the stones are usually grey, so I've long had a theory that the name was borrowed in the Kyoto area from actual blue stones from other parts of Japan which had a similar fineness to the stones that came to be known as 'aoto' more generally. Just my theory and have no evidence, and perhaps the other stones were found later not before. Kaisei, Aizu, Ikarashi from farther north are all blue-ish - could be others too - and have a similar general fineness to other aoto.

Usually aoto will be from the Tanba area to the west of Kyoto City and from various mines there, all closed now I think - probably a while ago. There are names of different areas/villages which were used for the mines, although with lots of aoto from there you never can be sure where they've come from. There are similar other stones from other places too around the country which look like Tanba aoto. Generally they're layered stones but not very abrasive, so used by sharpening along the layers (perpendicular) not with the layers. Because of this, it's easy to encounter hard bits that are exposed and make the stone cr*p. There are different characteristics and aoto can range from medium-medium to finer-medium, and can be softer or harder. People on KKF often term them as 'pre-finishers' but they have a reputation for being the 'kings' of kitchen knives, meaning that good aoto should be ideal for finishing your knives off, and I tend to agree. 

'Red' and 'green' aoto are another kind of stone from Mt Atago in Kyoto and have a similar fineness to aoto, but calling them 'aoto' seems just like marketing decision by JNS that caught on with the KKF crowd and it'd be unlikely that people would understand what you're talking about in Japan. They'd just be called 'Atagoyama' or something more generic. They're not blue, of course, so not 'ao' and not what is usually implied by 'aoto'. They're layered but used on top of the layers like normal. They varied a lot and some people seem to have found reds or greens that they've liked a lot. Often pretty useful stones. 

There it is, but Dave's right that I and/or others have written some of this stuff before. Probably hard to locate quickly through a search, though, as 'aoto' would get so many hits.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Nov 9, 2016)

Another piece of info:

http://easternsmooth.com/blog/jim-rion/2011/06/21/268-aoto-talk.html


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## DanHumphrey (Nov 9, 2016)

copperJon said:


> *I may or may not have* picked up one of Maksim's Aoto's last night, as it fits the bill for my desire for a pre-finisher. I currently have a big tsushima that I have never really warmed up to, and so pulled the trigger with the sale. But...what makes a good Aoto? Do all aotos come from a specific mine? strata? I seek the knowledge of you jnat wizards out there.



I have no input on the topic, but I love that I'm not the only one who uses that turn of phrase when we've definitely done something. 

An Aoto is actually a stone I'd like to try, so I'm in for seeing the results.


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## copperJon (Nov 9, 2016)

Excellent info, thanks all. Yes, I got a whole mess of results when searching Aoto so I appreciate the responses.


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## Matus (Nov 9, 2016)

I should soon receive a blue Aoto (from Watanabe) that was mined about 100 years ago. If that is not a good Aoto, than I do not know what else should be. I will let you know how I like it.


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## cheflivengood (Nov 9, 2016)

Matus said:


> I should soon receive a blue Aoto (from Watanabe) that was mined about 100 years ago. If that is not a good Aoto, than I do not know what else should be. I will let you know how I like it.



I bought the big one he had from the 1970s. I have had a lot of aotos/monzento over the years and the biggest problem is the inclusions and the cracks in the stone. Finding one with perfect shape and consistency is very hard, and the one I have now is the ticket. It doesn't have the best kasumi finish of all the aoto I have had, but the size and speed and tooth of the edge is great. I think the key is really finding older ones that don't have problems.


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## aboynamedsuita (Nov 9, 2016)

I also got an aoto from Watanabe but mine in the Kouzaki aoto and kinda greenish, turns really dark green when wet and the lacquered sides and bottom look wet too. I like the uncut shape too.

Here's an old pic with the bonus mini Aizu I got






I'm no jnat expert, but when I was looking for an aoto the biggest caveats I was advised of were:
-the width (they often are narrow around 60mm or less so may be problematic for some users)
-sand or other inclusions (unless really bad can usually dig out the line on the surface)
-soft and absorbent (so may split easier and sealing is highly advisable)


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## bennyprofane (Nov 9, 2016)

Matus said:


> I should soon receive a blue Aoto (from Watanabe) that was mined about 100 years ago. If that is not a good Aoto, than I do not know what else should be. I will let you know how I like it.



Congrats Matus, I'm guessing that you got #8 which is Kouzaki which is supposedly one of the the best.

I also have a Kouzaki from Watanabe which he was using himself and which he gave me for next to nothing. I had asked what stones he uses and we started talking about this Aoto. I asked him if he has a similar one and he offered me his stone. He called it a "junk stone" but wrote that it, despite the looks and the condition, sharpens very nicely. It's definitely turbo fast, I can sharpen to a burr very quickly and it has great feeling and feedback, a weird an exceptional stone. The noise it makes while sharpening might be my favourite of all my stones. I call it tenderly my "ghetto Aoto".














Shinichi, wrote me an email a few days ago that he's still thinking about the stone. He might regret selling it to me.


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## cheflivengood (Nov 9, 2016)

View attachment 33527


Aoto in Tanba, Kyoto Size 62 x 65 x 230mm


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## DanHumphrey (Nov 9, 2016)

Is there a reason Aotos tend to be so rough-hewn?


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## Matus (Nov 10, 2016)

Benny, that is one cool lookng stones. Are those lines OK, ir do you have to dig them out.

Yes, I did get that #8 - I could not resist when I got 50% discount - it was a no-brainer. Yes - it is both thinner/smaller and more expensive as other Aoto stones from Shinichi, but on absolute scale tghe price was very good. I hope to receive it in a week or two (I have not idea how fast will it arrive from Japan to Germany).


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## Badgertooth (Nov 10, 2016)

Anybody know where monzento fits into the scheme of things. Is it another, distinct type of soft muddy midgrit or a type of aoto?


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## DanHumphrey (Nov 10, 2016)

Badgertooth said:


> Anybody know where monzento fits into the scheme of things. Is it another, distinct type of soft muddy midgrit or a type of aoto?



Jon describes it on his site as "similar to Aoto, but a little softer and more muddy in general". That makes me think it's not an Aoto and is its own distinct type, but would fit into the same spot in a sharpening progression.


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## daveb (Nov 10, 2016)

DanHumphrey said:


> Is there a reason Aotos tend to be so rough-hewn?




Ummm, cause they're chiseled out of rock?


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## Asteger (Nov 10, 2016)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Another piece of info: http://easternsmooth.com/blog/jim-rion/2011/06/21/268-aoto-talk.html



EasternSmooth was a useful blog, even if directed at razor users and even if, shudder, he would talk of stones as 'hones'. I remember this post. Also funny to see Maxim posting below, reminding us that he has been learning like the rest of us and not from that long ago



DanHumphrey said:


> Is there a reason Aotos tend to be so rough-hewn?



Well, one thing I think is they're meant for more 'heavy duty' stuff like knives and tools, as opposed to razors and so are cut bigger. They'll usually be from layered rock, though, and so it'll be hard to get beautiful large pieces. On the sides they'll usually be cut sort of along a layer especially where there's 'skin' or a hard layer that's not good for sharpening. The layers aren't entirely regular and so the loose bits will come off and/or 'skin' will be exposed on the sides and the shape left over won't be entirely uniform. In my opinion, not the most beautiful stones out there, definitely more on the 'tool' side, and so doesn't much matter


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## Smashmasta (Nov 10, 2016)

Asteger, please clear your inbox


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## Asteger (Nov 10, 2016)

Marcelo Amaral said:


> Another piece of info: http://easternsmooth.com/blog/jim-rion/2011/06/21/268-aoto-talk.html



EasternSmooth was a useful blog, even if directed at razor users and even if, shudder, he would talk of stones as 'hones'. I remember this post. Also funny to see Maxim posting below, reminding us that he has been learning like the rest of us and not from that long ago



DanHumphrey said:


> Is there a reason Aotos tend to be so rough-hewn?



Well, one thing I think is they're meant for more 'heavy duty' stuff like knives and tools, as opposed to razors and so are cut bigger. They'll usually be from layered rock, though, and so it'll be hard to get beautiful large pieces. On the sides they'll usually be cut sort of along a layer especially where there's 'skin' or a hard layer that's not good for sharpening. The layers aren't entirely regular and so the loose bits will come off and/or 'skin' will be exposed on the sides and the shape left over won't be entirely uniform. In my opinion, not the most beautiful stones out there, definitely more on the 'tool' side, and so doesn't much matter



Badgertooth said:


> Anybody know where monzento fits into the scheme of things. Is it another, distinct type of soft muddy midgrit or a type of aoto?



Yeah, originating from the Tanba area too, I think. Quite aoto-like and layered. The one I have would be on the coarse side of aoto and is thirsty and muddy. A bit below a good finishing grit (this from a med-fineness finishing aficionado like me). A wide-bevel champion


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## DanHumphrey (Nov 10, 2016)

daveb said:


> Ummm, cause they're chiseled out of rock?



So are other naturals, which aren't nearly as rough. Like, for example, my Khao Men. Or the pictures of Hideriyamas, Oouchis, and Ashiya Suitas on Jon's site than the Aotos on his site. Similarly, the Aotos on Maxim's site typically look rougher than the other naturals listed alongside them. I'm asking if there's a reason for them, specifically, being rougher than other naturals.


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## marc4pt0 (Nov 10, 2016)

daveb said:


> Ummm, cause they're chiseled out of rock?



Very Enlightening. 

I have 2 red Aoto and 1 blue. The Blue one is a bit smaller, but both the reds are more than decent size. All three are pretty much perfectly rectangular, with smooth flat "face" surfaces. The sides and bottoms however are a bit rough and uneven. I'll have to snap some pics of them later.

Of the 2 Red Aoto stones, I've only been using one. The second one I bought just to have as a back up since I liked the first so much. They're not easy to come by. Mine leaves a fairly fine polish if need be, but leaves an outstanding toothy edge. 

As for the Blue Aoto, it's still a mystery for me. Have yet to fully crack its "code". I am by no means very savvy when it comes to JNats. In fact I'd sum it up by saying I'm clueless. The Blue Aoto has given me some great results and at other times not so great, even when used on the same knife and/or steel. It's an old stone, not to sure how "vintage" it is, and the stamp it once had is long gone. All 3 of the Aoto stones were originally from JNS, so I kind of trust them.

I have 2 other natural stones, on of Cris's (Scorpion Forge) stones that I believe originated from China, and one from Jon- a Takashima Awasedo. I _really_ like this stone. Super creamy in feel, smells like (and tastes like) fresh cracked tellicherry peppercorns. Leaves a fantastic edge with just the right amount of toothyness (for me at least).

I wish I could offer more on this topic, but hopefully this thread can help fill in the blanks for me.


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## bennyprofane (Nov 10, 2016)

Matus said:


> Benny, that is one cool lookng stones. Are those lines OK, ir do you have to dig them out.



Matus, some of the lines have been dug my Watanabe, so they will need digging again in the future. Right now, none of them causes problems.


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## Asteger (Nov 10, 2016)

Back to the original question:



copperJon said:


> ...what makes a good Aoto?



They're not beautiful stones by most accounts, so looks wouldn't be part of it. Size and shape could be, though some aoto treasures are small. They also have many sources and so it's difficult to generalise, although they'll definitely be medium stones. Some are harder or softer, slower or faster. Beyond that you'll want to find one that reacts well to water, because many will soak it up like a sponge. Like with any good stone, you'll want to be able to get the right kind of balance going with the slurry easily enough, so you don't have to water it too much and make it thin, and so it builds up and you can start to feel it break down and get that jnat slurry-knife harmony that should last a moment or longer before you need a few more drops of water. Lots of aoto will have hard inclusions, so obviously you avoid that. They're also the general feel or feedback as some say as you use them. The more sponge-like ones can feel hollow like there's not much to them. They're rarely harder and finer, and so you generally wouldn't worry too much about hardness as an issue. 

To be clear the above is for what are conventionally called 'aoto' - ie. Tanba-mined stones, and not the JNS red/green aoto which would not normally be regarded as aoto, nor real 'ao' blue-ish stones from other regions, as I wrote a bit about above. 



DanHumphrey said:


> DanHumphrey said:
> 
> 
> > Is there a reason Aotos tend to be so rough-hewn?
> ...



As said above:


Asteger said:


> Well, one thing I think is they're meant for more 'heavy duty' stuff like knives and tools, as opposed to razors and so are cut bigger. They'll usually be from layered rock, though, and so it'll be hard to get beautiful large pieces. On the sides they'll usually be cut sort of along a layer especially where there's 'skin' or a hard layer that's not good for sharpening. The layers aren't entirely regular and so the loose bits will come off and/or 'skin' will be exposed on the sides and the shape left over won't be entirely uniform. In my opinion, not the most beautiful stones out there, definitely more on the 'tool' side, and so doesn't much matter


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## panda (Nov 10, 2016)

marc, at least with my blue, you had to start a slurry but not let it break down. splash more water as soon as the swarf started to break down. otherwise it would polish instead of cut.

asteger is the owner of said stone now, maybe he can chime in on it as well.


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