# Gesshin Heiji or Kato Work Horse



## stereo.pete (Nov 21, 2013)

Trying to decide what I want for Christmas and I would love your thoughts and opinions. What would you choose and why, Kato or Heiji?


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## Mrmnms (Nov 21, 2013)

Pete, you've probably been real good this year, why not one of each?


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## James (Nov 21, 2013)

I'd choose kato just based on this thread - http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/13910-Food-Release-Videos

kato, yoshikane, and DT all had a nice balance of food release and smooth sounding cuts; heiji had great release, but sounded a bit crunchy.


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## labor of love (Nov 22, 2013)

if you choose kato, be careful. it can chip if you get too rough with it. the only reason i mention this is because youre saying youre looking for a work horse. sometimes we can have very different defintions of what a workhorse is.


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## Von blewitt (Nov 22, 2013)

The Kato westerns are a bit thinner at the spine, but cut just as well as the Wa gyuto's and the white ebony handled one is a beauty! ( I have a Kikuryu which is the fancy version) I also have a Gesshin Heiji, I don't think you can go wrong with either, I enjoy polishing the wide bevels of the Heiji on Natural stones. Flip a coin


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## JohnnyChance (Nov 22, 2013)

Two knives I love. They both are great hefty cutters, I find the Kato cuts a little better. The Heiji is great but there are some items it doesn't agree with. The Kato is a better cutter across the board. For me it comes down to your stance on reactivity. If you don't like Shige levels of reactivity, get the SS Heiji. If caring for some rust now and then doesn't bother you, get the Kato. 

One other thing is the Heiji (from Jon anyway) comes with a saya.


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## labor of love (Nov 22, 2013)

are you interested in a heiji carbon or semi stainless? i must say i prefer the qualities of katos steel over heiji carbon. kato has nicer retention, atleast in my experience it does.


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## JohnnyChance (Nov 22, 2013)

labor of love said:


> are you interested in a heiji carbon or semi stainless? i must say i prefer the qualities of katos steel over heiji carbon. kato has nicer retention, atleast in my experience it does.



I have the semi stainless core (stainless clad) Heiji and the edge retention is fantastic, better than Kato. Never used a carbon Heiji.


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## stereo.pete (Nov 22, 2013)

Thanks for your insight guys. I was looking at the Semi-Stainless Heiji and the term "work horse" was used because that is what the Kato is called from maxim. Thanks for posting a link to the knife videos, I completely forgot out that thread watching it again now.


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## bkultra (Nov 22, 2013)

I went through the same decision a month ago and picked Heiji for the following reasons:

The geometry of the kato seemed harder to maintain in the long run. The convexed geometry seemed like it would not only but harder to sharpen correctly but would require thinning more often and a higher level of skill it to. 

I love my shigefusa and was interested in the connection between them both studying under the same master. 

I also wanted a SS knife to use on more acidic foods since all my other gyutos are simple carbon.


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## Oui Chef (Nov 22, 2013)

Currently trying to make the same decision between a Kato or Heiji workhorse, and I think I will go Heiji for exactly bk's reasons.. I don't think I'm competent enough to look after Kato's geometry properly right now and my current knives are carbon (What level of reactivity is the Kato comparable to? Blue super? white 2?).

Having said that, for me at least, the Kato has a VERY special appeal. Don't know why but it seems to have a mysterious allure to it.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Nov 22, 2013)

Oui Chef said:


> Currently trying to make the same decision between a Kato or Heiji workhorse, and I think I will go Heiji for exactly bk's reasons.. I don't think I'm competent enough to look after Kato's geometry properly right now and my current knives are carbon (What level of reactivity is the Kato comparable to? Blue super? white 2?).
> 
> Having said that, for me at least, the Kato has a VERY special appeal. Don't know why but it seems to have a mysterious allure to it.



It's not the hagane (core steel) of the Kato that is reactive. It's the soft iron jigane (cladding) that is reactive. It is on the same order as the jigane of the Shigefusa.


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## Oui Chef (Nov 22, 2013)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> It's not the hagane (core steel) of the Kato that is reactive. It's the soft iron jigane (cladding) that is reactive. It is on the same order as the jigane of the Shigefusa.


Of course. Haven't yet had the pleasure of handling a shig.. is the clad on par with white 2 or worse?


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## bkultra (Nov 22, 2013)

Oui Chef said:


> Of course. Haven't yet had the pleasure of handling a shig.. is the clad on par with white 2 or worse?



Worse when it comes to reactivity.

Edit: this is based on my Shigefusa as I don't have and never used a kato


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## Pensacola Tiger (Nov 22, 2013)

Oui Chef said:


> Of course. Haven't yet had the pleasure of handling a shig.. is the clad on par with white 2 or worse?



The soft iron is quite reactive compared to shirogami. It needs a good forced patina before it quiets down, at least in my experience. Ordinary use will do it too, but the journey is a PITA. I hate brown onions.


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## Oui Chef (Nov 22, 2013)

Rightio. Thanks for the information guys! 

I thought confirming how reactive it was would help me stop wanting to grab a Kato so bad... WRONG! :biggrin:


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## labor of love (Nov 22, 2013)

i found that the cladding on kato and the kato grind to be very easy to thin actually. while im not sure if i maintained the factory geometry, kato should be much easier to thin compared to heiji(stainless cladding).


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## labor of love (Nov 22, 2013)

what i mean by the kato grind being easy to thin is that it seemed very easy to lay the blade on its side and apply even strokes compared to many other knives ive thinned. i wish couldve tried a heiji by now, i would be very interested in learning about the difference in performances first hand. i found shig cladding to be more reactive than kato cladding too, if that helps.


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## turbochef422 (Nov 22, 2013)

i never tried a kato(but i think thats gonna be my christmas gift) but the heiji semi stainless steel is great. edge retention, sharpening. When i first picked it up it felt a bit awkeward but then i started cutting and it blew my mind. Its hard to explain but its definitely something special


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## Chuckles (Nov 22, 2013)

I think the Kato would be easier to thin in terms of time. Heiji makes it clear how far up the thinning has to go. With The Kato as soon as you can get over how far up the blade the scratches need to extend when thinning it becomes pretty straight forward because the grind is very consistent along the entire blade face.


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## bkultra (Nov 22, 2013)

I should have been more clear. When I said it would be harder to thin, I was not speaking of in terms of time. I do agree soft iron would be faster to thin then stainless steel. What I meant was it would be harder to maintain the original geometry (again I could be wrong). I also assume it would require thining more often.


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## Justin0505 (Nov 22, 2013)

I haven't used a Heji, but they've been on my radar for awhile. 

From what I've read, it's likely that both need some thinning before reaching their full potential. 

Both Kato's that I've used needed quite a bit of thinning, and I'd agree with Chuckle's sentiment that thinning a blended convex grind like a Kato is a bit trickier to figure out than knives with an obvious bevel like a Heji. 

I've heard good things about the steel in the Hejis, but I must say that the 2 Kato's that I've sharpened where almost OVER hard. The steel felt more like glass than metal. Getting an aggressive and functionally sharp edge was moderately easy, but getting a crazy sharp or more refined edge was perhaps the most difficult of any steel I've sharpened (stainless included).


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## chinacats (Nov 22, 2013)

Chuckles said:


> I think the Kato would be easier to thin in terms of time. Heiji makes it clear how far up the thinning has to go. With The Kato as soon as you can get over how far up the blade the scratches need to extend when thinning it becomes pretty straight forward because the grind is very consistent along the entire blade face.








Chuckles, that is one sexy ass blade!


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## Asteger (Nov 22, 2013)

Me, too. I've never tried a Heiji, and might have bought one if I hadn't been warned off of it somewhat. I do have a Kato, however. It's a JNS Kato gyuto 'Workhorse' as distinct from other Kato gyuto, such as those which if you really try are possible to find in Japan. Anyway, it's my fav gyuto. Agreed that, though you need to attend to the bevels, get a good feel for and preserve the geometry, it's not really hard at all. I suppose a well-made knife more or less indicates to the sharpener how to go about things. Yes, the steel is hard, but for me not hard to sharpen or to get a useful edge with teeth. The knive doesn't come with a saya, which is a drawback to me, for me it's a knife I never question when I pick it up. And, oh, as for reactivity I don't find it to be very reactive anywhere, just as a workhorse should, and just gradual, natural patina in my case.


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## quantumcloud509 (Nov 22, 2013)

Id go with Kato. Wait a second...I DID go with Kato. Not because I dont like Heiji, Ive never tried them, but when I went with Kato "Workhorse", and even though the handle/tang area looked like @$$, I have been having a very difficult time putting my "Workhorse" down. Edge retention is great, sharpening is easy...a little tougher than a Takeda perse but easy. Reactivity is not like AS, and I am still getting used to how and when the tomagahane steel reacts, but its quick and small rust spots. Im really angry at myself right now for using green scrubber pad to clean the knife the other night in drunker stuppor, but wet sanding is in the future as Workhorse has some vertical lines Id like to smooth out. The drawbacks are honestly so minute that they just dont matter. The feel of the knife with its comfortable burnt chestnut handle, and its proper heft give the knife a perfect dimension of spiritual like balance. Zen you might call it. Its true. Cutting with Kato is one of the more pure experiences I have yet to have with a knife. Oh and a bout a saya...if thats really whats holding you back from purchasing a Workhorse, Im sure we can figure that out real quick like...


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## EdipisReks (Nov 22, 2013)

Justin0505 said:


> From what I've read, it's likely that both need some thinning before reaching their full potential.



Whoever wrote that is full of it. I've owned two brand new Heijis, one direct from Nakaya-san and one from Jon, and the only knives that have cut better, out of the box or not out of the box, than the Heijis have been Kagekiyos, and I've tried and owned a lot of knives (though not a non-deformed Kato, admittedly).


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## quantumcloud509 (Nov 22, 2013)




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## labor of love (Nov 22, 2013)

okay. the kato that we are all talking about is the kato workhorse series. generally speaking many people assume any knife that is commonly referred to as a "workhorse" could be suitable for rough work. i would like to warn any potential buyer that unless you use some microbevels, Kato will definitely get chips if you decide to work rough with it. simply because its a big thick knife, doesnt necessarily mean it can take a beating.


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## Asteger (Nov 22, 2013)

EdipisReks said:


> I've owned two brand new Heijis, one direct from Nakaya-san and one from Jon



I think this thread is about Gesshin Heiji, but would you recommend getting one direct? Can't be that different, you're cutting out the middle-man, and it's cheaper I believe, right?


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## EdipisReks (Nov 22, 2013)

Asteger said:


> I think this thread is about Gesshin Heiji, but would you recommend getting one direct? Can't be that different, you're cutting out the middle-man, and it's cheaper I believe, right?



They are pretty different knives, in the details, and the F&F on mine isn't as nice as Gesshin. There is apparently more variance on the knives, direct, but I got lucky and got a really nice one. Buying a Gesshin from Jon, you are assured to get a good one.


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## chuck239 (Nov 22, 2013)

Asteger said:


> I think this thread is about Gesshin Heiji, but would you recommend getting one direct? Can't be that different, you're cutting out the middle-man, and it's cheaper I believe, right?



I initially typed something rude about this and then deleted it. If that's how you do business go for it.


Also, I will just say that I owned both knives. I sold both knives. I am purchasing a semi stainless heiji very soon. Both are good knives though.

-Chuck


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## Ruso (Nov 22, 2013)

AFAIK *Gesshin* Heiji is a made to Jon specs and is thinner and has better F&F on average.


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## EdipisReks (Nov 22, 2013)

Ruso said:


> AFAIK *Gesshin* Heiji is a made to Jon specs and is thinner and has better F&F on average.



yep. different handles, too: the Gesshin knives have burnt chestnut, whereas my carbon, from Nakaya-san directly, has a a stabilized ho wood handle. They are both nice handles.


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## JBroida (Nov 22, 2013)

i think a lot of people assume well finished ho wood handles are stabilized.... almost all ho wood handles from japan are not stabilized... i cant think of very few exceptions (but there are some)


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## EdipisReks (Nov 22, 2013)

JBroida said:


> i think a lot of people assume well finished ho wood handles are stabilized.... almost all ho wood handles from japan are not stabilized... i cant think of very few exceptions (but there are some)



I've seen a quite a few of both, and I'm convinced that the one Nakaya shipped on my knife is stabilized, as there is just no change at all with prolonged, multiple wettings. It's also the same color, and has the same feel, as every stabilized ho wood handle I've used.


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## JBroida (Nov 22, 2013)

i think you'd be surprised... honestly, the VAST MAJORITY are not... but having a really nice finish makes a VERY big difference


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## EdipisReks (Nov 22, 2013)

JBroida said:


> i think you'd be surprised... honestly, the VAST MAJORITY are not... but having a really nice finish makes a VERY big difference



I bow to superior knowledge. Too bad I don't have access to a mass spectrometer anymore, though.


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## EdipisReks (Nov 22, 2013)

Looking at it more closely, the butt of the handle is showing a bit of grain, which I hadn't noticed until looking at it. The sides are as they were. I'd say you're right, Jon. I wonder if the other knives, advertised as being stabilized, were simply well finished? They were Konosukes.


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## JBroida (Nov 22, 2013)

not to take this too far off topic, but while we were still carrying konosuke, they asked if we thought stabilized handles would be good... initially, i didnt like the idea (or the sample they sent) because it didnt feel "alive" in hand, but i later realized that many people would appreciate the convenience more than miss the feeling, so we switched over with them. That was the only one.


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## jer (Nov 22, 2013)

The Gesshin also comes with a saya, whereas it does not appear that those obtained directly do.


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## EdipisReks (Nov 22, 2013)

jer said:


> The Gesshin also comes with a saya, whereas it does not appear that those obtained directly do.



You just have to pay a little extra. Between paying for the saya and shipping, there isn't a ton of price difference, really, between ordering direct and from Jon.


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## EdipisReks (Nov 22, 2013)

JBroida said:


> not to take this too far off topic, but while we were still carrying konosuke, they asked if we thought stabilized handles would be good... initially, i didnt like the idea (or the sample they sent) because it didnt feel "alive" in hand, but i later realized that many people would appreciate the convenience more than miss the feeling, so we switched over with them. That was the only one.



Good info.


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## Ruso (Jan 20, 2014)

It's a little old topic, but to not create a new one.
Is Kato = Yoshiaki Fujiwara or it's something different?


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## easy13 (Jan 20, 2014)

Yes, Same


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## Timthebeaver (Jan 20, 2014)

http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/yoshiaki-fujiwara-270mm-gyuto/


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## Ruso (Jan 20, 2014)

thank you


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (May 30, 2021)

what a time to be alive...


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## tcmx3 (May 30, 2021)

nakiriknaifuwaifu said:


> what a time to be alive...



in 2015 I bought both of these knives lol.

515 for the 240 semi-stainless Gesshin Heiji with saya
541 for the 240 Kato Workhorse

one of these knives you can still get for close to the same price


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## daveb (May 30, 2021)

The funny part is it's the better knife....


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## tcmx3 (May 30, 2021)

daveb said:


> The funny part is it's the better knife....



I would not agree with that. but then it's purely preference.

both are very fine makers though, that's for sure.


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## nwshull (Jun 1, 2021)

I clicked on this and had to do a double take before I saw the date. What car should I ask for, a honda (ok acura) or Lamborghini.


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## tcmx3 (Jun 1, 2021)

nwshull said:


> I clicked on this and had to do a double take before I saw the date. What car should I ask for, a honda (ok acura) or Lamborghini.



more like do you want an S Class or an AC-130


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## DitmasPork (Jun 1, 2021)

Love and use them both. Of the two, I'll usually favor the Kato's profile and grind, which is more versatile for how I cook—the machi a major plus. That said, I regularly grab the Heiji, good knife for sure, very special steel.


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## captaincaed (Jun 1, 2021)

That OG iron cladding reactivity drives me crazy. With western ingredients it's a non starter any more. Rust, pitting, discolored ingredients that pick up off flavors. No thanks. 

For some reason this wrought iron I'm trying doesn't have that issue. Is this others' experience as well?


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## nakiriknaifuwaifu (Jun 1, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> That OG iron cladding reactivity drives me crazy. With western ingredients it's a non starter any more. Rust, pitting, discolored ingredients that pick up off flavors. No thanks.
> 
> For some reason this wrought iron I'm trying doesn't have that issue. Is this others' experience as well?


Yes wrought iron tends to be less reactive than plain soft iron.


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## captaincaed (Jun 1, 2021)

It strikes me as counterintuitive, since there's additional phosphorous an sulfur slag in wrought. Shows what my chemistry degree was good for...


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## xxxclx (Jun 1, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> That OG iron cladding reactivity drives me crazy. With western ingredients it's a non starter any more. Rust, pitting, discolored ingredients that pick up off flavors. No thanks.
> 
> For some reason this wrought iron I'm trying doesn't have that issue. Is this others' experience as well?



are you referring to the heiji carbons? Did not know that they use wrought iron cladding. Nakaya heij’s website refers to the cladding as “very soft steel”


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## captaincaed (Jun 1, 2021)

xxxclx said:


> are you referring to the heiji carbons? Did not know that they use wrought iron cladding. Nakaya heij’s website refers to the cladding as “very soft steel”


No, sorry, just reactive soft cladding in general. 
The wrought I have is from Rob Trimarchi, sorry I should have been clearer.


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