# Kitayama discussion



## HRC_64 (Nov 18, 2017)

Is it worth $50 and will it really let one skip the 2k/3k Chosera from 1K/800?
Does it really leave "weak edges", or is this just from misuse?

Watanabe and Korin both like it directly off 1K,
but I know there are other views on it.

Anyways, lets have a "current year" discussion


----------



## valgard (Nov 18, 2017)

For sharpening you can go from 1K, for polishing that's a different story IMO.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 18, 2017)

Good topic. I used to enjoy using kitayama after rika. Id like to hear if theres a specific advantage for 1k to 8k jump.


----------



## Marek07 (Nov 18, 2017)

Not that I have lots of experience, but speaking specifically about non-carbon knives, moving from a 1k Chosera or a 1k Watanabe to a Kitayama is very good. I was pleasantly surprised when I first tried it without using the Chosera 3k in between. Like @Valgard, I'm not discussing polishing.


----------



## HRC_64 (Nov 18, 2017)

valgard said:


> For sharpening you can go from 1K, for polishing that's a different story IMO.



So for double bevel gyuto, ryo-deba, petty, etc.
In the context of sharpening, let us focus on it.
I think is a good qualifier.


----------



## HRC_64 (Nov 18, 2017)

How much mud/nagura 
comes into play 
in making it 'work' ?


----------



## K813zra (Nov 18, 2017)

I like the 1k to 8k jump as it leaves me with aggressive edge. I don't like a lot of polish. This combo seems to work fine with carbon or stainless.

For reference I jump from a Shapton pro 1k.

Edit: Now that I am not posting from a mobile device I can expand. 

I rather like the Kitayama as I find it a very versatile stone and $50 is a steal. I can use it on stainless just to clean up the edge left by the 1k by doing a few stropping strokes. I can use it after carbon and try to get a little more from it but still not polish it all the way out. This leaves me with an aggressive edge with lots of refined bite, which I like for a gyuto. Or I can use it after a 2-4k if I am looking for polish or refinement or even after something higher than that for single bevels. Functionally it is a great stone.

It has its down sides. Compared to something like the Rika it is muted in feedback. Not that it is terrible, it isn't and it feels okay too but not great. It seems to suck the edge in a bit as it is spongy. Almost like sharpening on a dense pencil eraser. Also, it drys slowly and unevenly so you have to take care to not let it dry too fast or too unevenly. Also, it leaves more of a foggy mirror, for me and not a true mirror. Not noticeable so much on narrow bevels. However, it is not my favorite for a kasumi finish, too polished. Not an issue, I can stop on the 2k and get the finish I want. 

As for weak edges, I have not noticed any such thing. My edges don't seem to be any more fragile than if I finished with any other finishing stone.


----------



## labor of love (Nov 18, 2017)

What about takenoko? Does a 1k takenoko jump get similar results? Ive already owned kitayama twice, wouldnt mind trying something different.


----------



## wbusby1 (Nov 18, 2017)

You can go 1k/8k on knife edges no problem with this stone. It works great for $50. 

IMO most knives can't handle that kind of edge refinement and will lose it much more quickly than a 1k or 2k finish ...so yeah weak edges. Teruyasu Fujiawaras and Munetoshi can hold it decently, while Kurosaki AS, Tanaka Ginsan, Konosuke Fujiyama, and others cannot in my experience. It's a pretty smooth cut though and I honestly don't use the stone at all for edge finishing to this day as I find it fun & smooth but not really practical for cutting food. Sometimes I'll use it as a quick clean up before finishing with a fine jnat for both wide bevel polishing and edges for knives and chisels. But honestly I rarely refine things that much and when I do it's usually just for fun...


----------



## K813zra (Nov 18, 2017)

I can not see how the stone is at fault if said knife simply can not hold refinement. One would have the same issue with another 8k stone too...


----------



## wbusby1 (Nov 18, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I can not see how the stone is at fault if said knife simply can not hold refinement. One would have the same issue with another 8k stone too...


 Yup, I hope I didn't leave the impression that this is unique to this particular 8k stone :O


----------



## valgard (Nov 18, 2017)

the stone is a steal imo


----------



## HRC_64 (Nov 18, 2017)

wbusby1 said:


> Yup, I hope I didn't leave the impression that this is unique to this particular 8k stone :O



would it be possible to get a discussion 
on how people are using it?

how much / just what type work 
are you putting on top of your 1k, etc.

thanks everyone




edit: here some from Nutmeg
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...atanabe-Stones?p=443139&viewfull=1#post443139


----------



## K813zra (Nov 18, 2017)

wbusby1 said:


> Yup, I hope I didn't leave the impression that this is unique to this particular 8k stone :O



I wasn't sure but no worries.  



HRC_64 said:


> would it be possible to get a discussion
> on how people are using it?
> 
> how much / just what type work
> ...



I use mine a few different ways. 

Stainless and soft Carbon: I basically use the stone as a strop after a 1k just to lightly clean up the edge. 

Harder double bevels: Directly after a 1k. In this case I do exactly as I would on the 1k but I start with half pressure. My sharpening system is using sectional scrubbing motions with pressure only in the trailing direction. I then reduce the pressure in half again and do full single sweeps, again edge trailing pressure. Stropping on the stone, to simplify. One sweep per side until I am comfortable with the edge. 

Single bevels and slicers of raw protein: I do the same as above but with a 2k stone between the 1 and 8k.

If it helps I have gauged my pressure levels. For raising a burr I use right around 4 pounds of pressure, to reduce I use 2 pounds and stropping about 1 pound for a few strokes and I follow that with strops that are about the weight of the blade.


----------



## rick alen (Nov 19, 2017)

who sells the Kitayama for $50?


----------



## valgard (Nov 19, 2017)

rick alen said:


> who sells the Kitayama for $50?


Not sure, Metalmaster sells it for $55 + $5 shipping and I thought it was the cheapest but there might be a cheaper source.


----------



## pkjames (Nov 19, 2017)

I often do 1k (chosera ) to 8k (snowhite) jump followed by stropping on jeans


----------



## rick alen (Nov 22, 2017)

One more question, is it better to order the stone with or without the base? Or, what's the difference?


----------



## K813zra (Nov 22, 2017)

rick alen said:


> One more question, is it better to order the stone with or without the base? Or, what's the difference?



I don't know but I have the baseless version and what I can tell you is that this stone drys slowly and unevenly. I suggest drying it on a dish rack or something, that is what I do. If you let it sit on something flat, you have to keep moving its position or the water will pool up within the stone all in one spot and it seems to not dry. That worries me in that maybe it will crack or something. Also, if you let it dry that way it seems to stain...But I have had zero problems maybe that is all just worry. The dish rack seems to work fine too.


----------



## Nemo (Nov 22, 2017)

K813zra said:


> I don't know but I have the baseless version and what I can tell you is that this stone drys slowly and unevenly. I suggest drying it on a dish rack or something, that is what I do. If you let it sit on something flat, you have to keep moving its position or the water will pool up within the stone all in one spot and it seems to not dry. That worries me in that maybe it will crack or something. Also, if you let it dry that way it seems to stain...But I have had zero problems maybe that is all just worry. The dish rack seems to work fine too.


Just curious, did you seal it?


----------



## K813zra (Nov 22, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Just curious, did you seal it?



Nope, never bothered sealing a synthetic before.


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Nov 24, 2017)

I've been doing a Chosera 800 to 8k jump for a while. I started out doing it with the Kitayama then switched to Snow White. I like the feel of the Snow White more but both did a really good job. For the price the Kitayama is awesome given that my Snow White was twice the price and really isn't any better except in feel. 

The Chosera 800 to 8k is a fine jump to make too as long as you take some time to weaken the burr a bit on the 800 by using lighter pressure, flipping the knife side to side etc...

Also, I run the knife through some cork after the 800 before moving to the 8k, I've found it helps pull off any weak burr and gives me a cleaner edge over all


----------



## adam92 (Mar 23, 2019)

SolidSnake03 said:


> I've been doing a Chosera 800 to 8k jump for a while. I started out doing it with the Kitayama then switched to Snow White. I like the feel of the Snow White more but both did a really good job. For the price the Kitayama is awesome given that my Snow White was twice the price and really isn't any better except in feel.
> 
> The Chosera 800 to 8k is a fine jump to make too as long as you take some time to weaken the burr a bit on the 800 by using lighter pressure, flipping the knife side to side etc...
> 
> Also, I run the knife through some cork after the 800 before moving to the 8k, I've found it helps pull off any weak burr and gives me a cleaner edge over all


do you feel kitayama is better for kasumi finish ?

i feel my snow white is great polishing stone, never try kitayama before


----------



## Knife2meatu (Mar 23, 2019)

Well, seeing as how the "Kitayama discussion" thread has been called forth from its grave... I may as well ask this here:

Is it safe to soak the Kit 8k for prolonged periods of time? Barring any issues which may arise from drying, I've read that the stone partially dissolves in water. But I'm not sure how reliable those accounts were.

As for:


adam92 said:


> do you feel kitayama is better for kasumi finish ?
> i feel my snow white is great polishing stone, never try kitayama before


I can only speak to its effect on the kind of common stainless steel I own, but the Kitayama 8k leaves a quite bright polish. Not as bright as the Snow White, but nowhere near what I've seen people refer to as _kasumi_.


----------



## Grunt173 (Mar 23, 2019)

My notes tell me that the Kitayama 8k stone is a magnesium stone so therefor it should not be soaked for extended periods or the magnesium salts will dissolve. Further notes tell me to soak the stone for 15 minutes before use. Hope this helps.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 23, 2019)

Watanabes website says to soak kitayama before use but to also not store in water


----------



## daveb (Mar 23, 2019)

Martell's website says to bash the stone to bits with a hammer, soak the bits and then use the slurry to polish the hammer.


----------



## MindTone (Mar 23, 2019)

daveb said:


> Martell's website says to bash the stone to bits with a hammer, soak the bits and then use the slurry to polish the hammer.


Does that mean I have to bash it with my knife if I want to polish it?


----------



## Knife2meatu (Mar 23, 2019)

MindTone said:


> Does that mean I have to bash it with my knife if I want to polish it?


I think I read somewhere that you're supposed to then rub the polished hammer against the knife -- must be how they do those fancy hammered finishes I keep hearing about.


----------



## Grunt173 (Mar 23, 2019)

daveb said:


> Martell's website says to bash the stone to bits with a hammer, soak the bits and then use the slurry to polish the hammer.


As I understand it,you first have to place the Kitty on top of a Snow White so you have a good solid base to hammer on.


----------



## K813zra (Mar 24, 2019)

I was under the impression the Kitayama was a resinoid based stone. I got that idea from this thread a long time and book marked it some time back.

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/sharpening-stones-soaking-vs-splashngo-some-info.17461/

That aside, my experience with the Kitayama is that it likes about a 1 minute soak under running water and I also find that I prefer the feeling of the stone if I flatten it before each use, which seems to allow it to soak in the water faster and gets rid of that goofy rubbery/skin like feel the stone gets after sitting. I guess that could be my imagination though. Regardless I like the edges I get from this stone.


----------



## Grunt173 (Mar 24, 2019)

K813zra said:


> I was under the impression the Kitayama was a resinoid based stone. I got that idea from this thread a long time and book marked it some time back.
> 
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/sharpening-stones-soaking-vs-splashngo-some-info.17461/
> 
> That aside, my experience with the Kitayama is that it likes about a 1 minute soak under running water and I also find that I prefer the feeling of the stone if I flatten it before each use, which seems to allow it to soak in the water faster and gets rid of that goofy rubbery/skin like feel the stone gets after sitting. I guess that could be my imagination though. Regardless I like the edges I get from this stone.


Kit,
I must say that I stand corrected then.In fact,I thought that I had gotten that info from Jon so in the case it is a Resinoid stone it can be permasoaked then and if not and is used as splash and go should be dried slowly and as Jon may suggest,wrapping a damp towel around it to aid in slow drying to try and prevent cracks.
My experience is much like yours so I flatten the stone before each use,but then I do that with all my stones.I find all of them feel better after doing that.I do like the Kitty quite a bit.
I appreciate you catching me on the type of stone it is.I hate to give out false information.


----------



## Grunt173 (Mar 24, 2019)

K813zra said:


> I was under the impression the Kitayama was a resinoid based stone. I got that idea from this thread a long time and book marked it some time back.
> 
> https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/sharpening-stones-soaking-vs-splashngo-some-info.17461/
> 
> That aside, my experience with the Kitayama is that it likes about a 1 minute soak under running water and I also find that I prefer the feeling of the stone if I flatten it before each use, which seems to allow it to soak in the water faster and gets rid of that goofy rubbery/skin like feel the stone gets after sitting. I guess that could be my imagination though. Regardless I like the edges I get from this stone.


Kit,I looked into the Kitty and just did a search is all and it led me to Korin and in their description of the stone,it does have magnesium salts in it. So are we confused yet?
https://www.korin.com/Kitayama-Fine-Stone-8000_2


----------



## JBroida (Mar 24, 2019)

Hey guys... I happen to know the people that actually make them and have spent time in that workshop and seen it with my own two eyes... resinoid based. That’s all those guys do there.


----------



## Grunt173 (Mar 24, 2019)

JBroida said:


> Hey guys... I happen to know the people that actually make them and have spent time in that workshop and seen it with my own two eyes... resinoid based. That’s all those guys do there.


Relief! Many thanks Jon. I was hoping you would come along.


----------



## K813zra (Mar 24, 2019)

JBroida said:


> Hey guys... I happen to know the people that actually make them and have spent time in that workshop and seen it with my own two eyes... resinoid based. That’s all those guys do there.



Someone stole the like button so it is back to "+1".


----------



## M1k3 (Mar 25, 2019)

K813zra said:


> Someone stole the like button so it is back to "+1".



What he said


----------



## Foltest (Mar 25, 2019)

I haven't tried kitayama, but I have tried the jump from lower grits with many other stones and I haven't had any issues so far.


----------



## adam92 (Mar 26, 2019)

Knife2meatu said:


> Well, seeing as how the "Kitayama discussion" thread has been called forth from its grave... I may as well ask this here:
> 
> Is it safe to soak the Kit 8k for prolonged periods of time? Barring any issues which may arise from drying, I've read that the stone partially dissolves in water. But I'm not sure how reliable those accounts were.
> 
> ...


i agree snow white is high polishing stone , but will lose the kasumi look if up to snow white...


----------



## Rotem Shoshani (Mar 12, 2020)

Marek07 said:


> Not that I have lots of experience, but speaking specifically about non-carbon knives, moving from a 1k Chosera or a 1k Watanabe to a Kitayama is very good. I was pleasantly surprised when I first tried it without using the Chosera 3k in between. Like @valgard, I'm not discussing polishing.



How long will you keep that edge between sharpening?
What kind of knives are you sharpening that way?


----------



## Marek07 (Mar 12, 2020)

Rotem Shoshani said:


> How long will you keep that edge between sharpening?
> What kind of knives are you sharpening that way?


Funny you should ask. I was doing this on friends' cheap stainless. I soon heard back that edges weren't lasting very long. Not only do they mistreat their knives, an 8k is way too high for stainless. I now finish on Chosera 3k. The Kitayama is reserved for my own knives and usually without the jump from 1k unless I'm in a hurry. A gradual progression is usually more durable.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 12, 2020)

I’ve tried watanabes progression recommendation shapton pro 1k>kitayama and I liked it quite a bit.


----------



## Rotem Shoshani (Mar 13, 2020)

labor of love said:


> I’ve tried watanabes progression recommendation shapton pro 1k>kitayama and I liked it quite a bit.



So will you refine the 1k on the Kitayama using light pressure? Or do you go full blown scrubbing motions? I'm trying to visualize the edge after the aforementioned progression. Guessing it isn't refined as it would with a 3-4k in between..?


----------



## labor of love (Mar 13, 2020)

It hardly feels like an 8k edge to me. Youre polishing 800 grit micro serrations with an 8k stone. So it comes out like really polished toothiness I guess you could say? I dunno, it’s pretty interesting.


----------



## Dave Martell (Mar 15, 2020)

The Kitayama is sort of an enigma, definitely not like other stones. I find it's more of a finisher than an 8k. It makes whatever stone you use it after work to better effect. Meaning if you follow a 1k stone it gives you a better more refined 1k edge and this is true for anything up through Shapton's 30k stone, etc. But for sure it's not a true 8k stone as it won't give you an 8k edge like other labeled 8k stones do.


----------



## Rotem Shoshani (Mar 15, 2020)

Dave Martell said:


> The Kitayama is sort of an enigma, definitely not like other stones. I find it's more of a finisher than an 8k. It makes whatever stone you use it after work to better effect. Meaning if you follow a 1k stone it gives you a better more refined 1k edge and this is true for anything up through Shapton's 30k stone, etc. But for sure it's not a true 8k stone as it won't give you an 8k edge like other labeled 8k stones do.



As in, lower than other 8k stones?
If I'm ever in the market for another 8k, what would you recommend?


----------



## Dave Martell (Mar 15, 2020)

Rotem Shoshani said:


> As in, lower than other 8k stones?
> If I'm ever in the market for another 8k, what would you recommend?




I can't think of it as lower or higher...more like....better. It makes whatever the last stone gives even better. Does that make sense?


----------



## kayman67 (Mar 15, 2020)

Rotem Shoshani said:


> As in, lower than other 8k stones?
> If I'm ever in the market for another 8k, what would you recommend?



I still have some 8k stones. I actually have an idea. Give me a few days.


----------



## M1k3 (Mar 15, 2020)

Doesn't it also have some natural stone powder in it also? That might have something to do with it.


----------



## kayman67 (Mar 15, 2020)

This is what they say. And the fact that can eventually polish like a 12k. I've seen some carbon made clean mirror.


----------



## labor of love (Mar 15, 2020)

kayman67 said:


> I still have some 8k stones. I actually have an idea. Give me a few days.


Ill be curious to hear about the results.


----------



## Rotem Shoshani (Mar 16, 2020)

Dave Martell said:


> I can't think of it as lower or higher...more like....better. It makes whatever the last stone gives even better. Does that make sense?



Better is good!


----------



## kayman67 (Mar 16, 2020)

labor of love said:


> Ill be curious to hear about the results.



Grits are a funny thing. It's very hard to establish what a true 8k edge is. Stones like Kitayama 8k or Sigma Select 10k, in the razor realm, do have a scratch pattern on top of true polishers like Super Stone 8k, but compared to other 4-6k they also improve and refine. Alongside this, the behaviour is not a constant in itself. Give that Kitayama a carbon edge and you get a clean mirror edge. 
Even more, for razor guys there's almost nothing to distinguish between Naniwa Fuji 8000 and Naniwa Super Stone 12000, under microscope magnification.


----------



## Up_dog128 (Jun 14, 2020)

@kayman67 Did you ever do that throwdown between 8k's?


----------



## kayman67 (Jun 15, 2020)

Never got to it. I'm way behind with work stuff.


----------



## zetieum (Jun 15, 2020)

I have, I love it. Never had problem with the drying. I use it splash and go. I go with little pressure. Here is how i use it:
- full sharpening: 1k -> Kitayama. DONE
- Sometimes for carbon, 1k -> Kitayama -> natural finisher
- 5 pass each side on Kitayama for edge refreshing
- I do not use it on ****** knives of my neighborhoods or relative. It is just to refined for not top quality steels.
- For polishing: I sometimes go to kitayama in the process as a step toward quasi-mirror hagane: it is faster than natural. Then I go back to a natural because this stone make a not nice jigane, imo.


----------



## JakeLoveshighCarbon (Jun 15, 2020)

I have only been soaking the top quarter of my stone in water for three minutes. It has an attached base. Maybe that's a bad idea for uneven drying but I haven't had trouble with it cracking. I think if I soaked it longer, I would want to soak the whole stone. 

The difference in cutting performance on a 5k edge is more noticeable on arm hair than on potatoes, but it does work awesome for stropping and seems to give the edge a bit more high performance longevity rather than weakening the edge. That might be from me holding back some so that it doesnt bite into the board but this is certainly worth experimenting with. I have a 30 dollar phone microscope. Maybe some pictures are in order.

Edit: Here are photos of rika5k, then kity8k, finally stropped on green compound and inside of cereal box. It would he interesting to see how jumps from 1k to 8k turn out.


----------



## demirtasem (Jun 21, 2020)

Guys I have some questions. I'm in market for a high grit finishing stone (I have Chosera 800 + 3k) and in between Kitayama 8k and Imanishi 10k. What would your suggestions about them? And I thought Kitayama 8k is splash and go. is It need to be soaked first?


----------



## SolidSnake03 (Jun 21, 2020)

labor of love said:


> I’ve tried watanabes progression recommendation shapton pro 1k>kitayama and I liked it quite a bit.



To add onto this, I've had a lot of success with this set up as well. It's really simple and easy and leaves a very nice working edge on anything that isn't crappy house knives. Those get Shapton pro 1k>2k strops and done. Been doing the Shapton Pro 1k>12K progression as well and that is very nice. The Kitayama is a bit cheaper and definitely feels nicer to sharpen on but does load a bit and wears a bit more. 

That said both make killer edges.


----------



## labor of love (Jun 21, 2020)

Kitayama should be crazy cheap right now at mtc.


----------



## Qapla' (Jun 21, 2020)

demirtasem said:


> Guys I have some questions. I'm in market for a high grit finishing stone (I have Chosera 800 + 3k) and in between Kitayama 8k and Imanishi 10k. What would your suggestions about them? And I thought Kitayama 8k is splash and go. is It need to be soaked first?


Well, what are you sharpening and what are you looking to accomplish? I go from Naniwa Pro/Chosera/etc. 3000 to an 8000 stone with nothing in between.


----------



## VicWire (Jun 22, 2020)

demirtasem said:


> Guys I have some questions. I'm in market for a high grit finishing stone (I have Chosera 800 + 3k) and in between Kitayama 8k and Imanishi 10k. What would your suggestions about them? And I thought Kitayama 8k is splash and go. is It need to be soaked first?



You can use the Kitayama S&G, but as seen in this tread, most users prefer to soak it for a short while, ~5 min imo.

If I am taking a knife through a progression of stones, I would put the Kitayama in the water when starting on the stone before, to prepare it for use when done on the previous one.

Haven't tried the Imanishi, can't help you choose between the two.


----------



## vl2k1 (Jun 22, 2020)

Hmmm... How's does Kitayama compare to Naniwa's Junpaku (Snow White)?


----------



## demirtasem (Jun 22, 2020)

Qapla' said:


> Well, what are you sharpening and what are you looking to accomplish? I go from Naniwa Pro/Chosera/etc. 3000 to an 8000 stone with nothing in between.



Mostly Masamoto KS and Kramer Carbon. And I'm gonna order a TF Denka soon. I mostly cut veggies (tomatoes, onions, celery stalks, idaho potatoes etc. not sweet potatoes or cabbage) and really enjoy cutting a tomato like a butter. I was thinking 3k + strop is enough but after reading these threads I want to give it a shot.


----------



## demirtasem (Jun 22, 2020)

VicWire said:


> You can use the Kitayama S&G, but as seen in this tread, most users prefer to soak it for a short while, ~5 min imo.
> 
> If I am takin a knife through a progression of stones, I would put the Kitayama in the water when starting on the stone before, to prepare it for use when done on the previous one.
> 
> Haven't tried the Imanishi, can't help you choose between the two.




Thank you!


----------



## Nemo (Jun 22, 2020)

demirtasem said:


> Mostly Masamoto KS and Kramer Carbon. And I'm gonna order a TF Denka soon. I mostly cut veggies (tomatoes, onions, celery stalks, idaho potatoes etc. not sweet potatoes or cabbage) and really enjoy cutting a tomato like a butter. I was thinking 3k + strop is enough but after reading these threads I want to give it a shot.


3k is enough.

Even stropping is guilding the lilly unless you are an experienced sharpener.

Unless you want to shave with your gyuto.

Remember that you can ruin an edge more easily on a fine stone because you will need more strokes to remove the same amount of metal, so any inconsistencies in your sharpening technique will be significantly amplified. Common result is a rounded edge.


----------



## BillHanna (Jun 22, 2020)

Nemo said:


> Remember that you can ruin an edge more easily on a fine stone because you will need more strokes to remove the same amount of metal, so any inconsistencies in your sharpening technique will be significantly amplified. Common result is a rounded edge.


I didn’t know I needed to hear this. Kudos to you.


----------

