# touching up and deburring edge trailing vs leading



## r0bz (Dec 13, 2021)

I've searched the forum for a similar thread didn't see, to find that's why I'm opening the thread

*for touching up a stainless steel knife (Rockwell HRC 55-58) on an 800 grit water stone what do you use and why* (I can't figure out what is better It's easier for me to strop edge trailing though)
(a) edge leading stropping

(b) edge trailing stropping



*for deburring a stainless steel knife (Rockwell HRC 55-58) on an 800 grit water stone what* *do you use and why* (I can't figure out what is better It's easier for me to strop edge trailing though)
(a) edge leading stropping

(b) edge trailing stropping


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## ian (Dec 13, 2021)

Imo, edge leading for deburring or for any finishing strokes. I never do edge trailing strokes on stones, only when stropping on cardboard. Edge trailing strokes tend to create more burr. They work for some people tho.


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## IsoJ (Dec 13, 2021)

Edge trailing works for me when I do some deburring on felt, wood, small kitchen"sponge" or something. If I am doing all on the stones then I do more edge leading than edge trailing.


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## r0bz (Dec 13, 2021)

IsoJ said:


> Edge trailing works for me when I do some deburring on felt, wood, small kitchen"sponge" or something. If I am doing all on the stones then I do more edge leading than edge trailing.


when trying to establish a burr do you use the push and pull method also referred to as scrubbing


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## IsoJ (Dec 13, 2021)

r0bz said:


> when trying to establish a burr do you use the push and pull method also referred to as scrubbing
> 
> It depends what knife or steel I am working on


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## r0bz (Dec 13, 2021)

IsoJ said:


> Edge trailing works for me when I do some deburring on felt, wood, small kitchen"sponge" or something. If I am doing all on the stones then I do more edge leading than edge trailing.


also for touch-ups on the stones you use the edge leading ?


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Dec 13, 2021)

I use edge trailing on everything. But I normally use leather strop instead of stones. And I raise angle a bit. 

Used to use cork for deburring, but on very soft steels it will tear away burr creating a very toothy edge. That alone is a good excuse to stop wasting time on soft steels.


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## IsoJ (Dec 13, 2021)

r0bz said:


> also for touch-ups on the stones you use the edge leading ?


With Zwillings and similar softer SS I do edge leading on the stones or honing rod and maybe couple edge trailing on cardboard depending on the mood. With J-knives 63hrc or higher, I touchup usually 6-8k grit stone( if that is the grit where I ended the sharpening with that knife) with edge trailing and keeping focus on the right angle and only 2-5 stropping motion per side. I haven't had problem raising an unwanted burr in 6-8k with stropping but you can round the edge very easily if doing it too long.


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## ModRQC (Dec 13, 2021)

In the vids you posted originally, one is on stones while the other one is on leather. Pretty much forces edge trailing in the second case.

On stones well to get your burr you need edge trailing. So it doesn't really matter how you do them, scrubbing figure eight pure trailing, but it's when you trail that you really form the burr and fully "project" it on the other side.

Problems some encounter with scrubbing is they apply as much pressure leading then trailing in the motion, which tends to "hide" the burr since you're basically removing parts of it as you form it. Eventually it works up but you may be removing more steel than needed.

For deburring, I think the catch is this:

trailing = less chances to mess your apex, more chance to not deburr properly

leading = more chances to mess your apex, less chances to not deburr properly

I sort of apply the "wrong" scrubbing idea in deburring because that's exactly what I want: I'll start with trailing some, convert to trail-lead in a same stroke and equivalent pressure halfway, and finish with only leading strokes. That where I really decrease pressure until close to none.

Last fine stone of a progression I might ultimately add a trailing strop motion but 1-2 strokes per side only and no pressure. Or not. There are visual clues and tactile clues in deburring that are relatively easy to learn to recognize. Also steel and what grits you're on helps to determine how to best get there.

There are I guess very different techniques and schools of thought about this, and someone who controls them well will achieve the goal. But whatever the differences a sharp clean edge is one thing only. How you get there is debatable, but getting it is not. You just need to find what works for you with your knives and stones.


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## r0bz (Dec 13, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> In the vids you posted originally, one is on stones while the other one is on leather. Pretty much forces edge trailing in the second case.
> 
> On stones well to get your burr you need edge trailing. So it doesn't really matter how you do them, scrubbing figure eight pure trailing, but it's when you trail that you really form the burr and fully "project" it on the other side.
> 
> ...


I think you haven't clicked on the other vid and only read the title its on a stone that's why I sent it


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## ModRQC (Dec 13, 2021)

Yeah sorry was going from the top image and title. I don't listen to Ryky a lot.

But watching the intro he's discussing doing it on a 6K stone. You're asking about your #800. If you do what he does at the beginning of the vid (didn't watch for long) on your 800, you're liable to raise a bastard burr somewhere and elsewhere along the edge, one side and the other. Or just fully burr.


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## r0bz (Dec 13, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Yeah sorry was going from the top image and title. I don't listen to Ryky a lot.
> 
> But watching the intro he's discussing doing it on a 6K stone. You're asking about your #800. If you do what he does at the beginning of the vid (didn't watch for long) on your 800, you're liable to raise a bastard burr somewhere and elsewhere along the edge, one side and the other. Or just fully burr.


you mean on 6:35 where he was stropping edge trailing on the brown stone?
if I were to do that with my #800 stone it would raise burr so it is suggested I use edge leading?


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## ModRQC (Dec 13, 2021)

Well what kind of steel are we talking about?

And are you looking at stropping to revive the edge, or really sharpening?


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## r0bz (Dec 13, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> Well what kind of steel are we talking about?
> 
> And are you looking at stropping to revive the edge, or really sharpening?


I wrote in the original post a low hrc knife (55-58 rockwell)
I was asking about 2 scenarios
1st scenario if I were to deburr on the 800 gritstone
2nd scenario if I were to touchup on a 800 gritstone when I feel the knife lost a little of its bite instead of honing on a steel rod


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## ModRQC (Dec 13, 2021)

Ok just making sure this was not rhetorical. 

1st and 2nd scenario would basically be a bit of the same thing. Obviously the knife you're touching up doesn't have a fresh, sizeable burr, but let's suppose that we really discuss deburring in the final, more difficult step of removal, and not the initial process of reducing it.

I'd strop edge leading - because the stone is rather fast, and because the steel is not only rather soft, but also the kind usually that will be difficult to deburr, hence any trailing to revive or to deburr there will only create additional work.


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## r0bz (Dec 13, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> initial process of reducing it


and at that stage edge trailing is optimal ?
for the record I never ask rhetorical questions


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## ModRQC (Dec 13, 2021)

Progressively decreasing pressure level is optimal in that stage. I also use my one motion trail/lead there. Trailing or leading will work too as long as you don’t use the same pressure as in scrubbing to get the burr.


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## ModRQC (Dec 13, 2021)

A bit like this yeah. One I developed for myself. Nothing so "technical" as the Kramer crescent. Once you're down with a good fluid trailing motion, you just need to come back reversing it to make a trail-lead. What I mean by "one motion" is mostly there's no need to lift the knife in between or to otherwise "detach" both strokes.


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## r0bz (Dec 13, 2021)

ModRQC said:


> A bit like this yeah. One I developed for myself. Nothing so "technical" as the Kramer crescent. Once you're down with a good fluid trailing motion, you just need to come back reversing it to make a trail-lead. What I mean by "one motion" is mostly there's no need to lift the knife in between or to otherwise "detach" both strokes.


and at the final deburring stage when the burr is very small you suggest using edge leading?
thank you for all the helpful info


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## ModRQC (Dec 13, 2021)

On a 800 grits I don't think there's any other choice. Trailing will too easily reform the burr you're trying to remove. And burrs tend to cling with these steels. Being soft means they keep folding, yet stay attached, for a while. It's why they usually respond well with honing steels. You fold the edge in use, redress with the rod, good to go for a while. 

In sharpening, it means patience in weakening the burr until it stops folding and just start to get removed. Trailing is too high a risk that you just reinforce the burr clinginess. Basically because you risk removing enough steel that the "base" of the burr gets into freshly exposed, still strong steel. 

But all this is rather useless. I mean, you need to do these things and see for yourself what happens. There's no way that you can ever be "forewarned" enough that you can do the most perfect job. You'll think it's good when it cuts, then in a few sharpening sessions you'll realize your new edges are way cleaner thus keener than the last, and realize you didn't do so good with removing burrs, and again and again along the way you realize that there was always place for improvement, and most probably still is. I'm in no way at such a sharpening level that I can stop doubting myself.


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## Nemo (Dec 13, 2021)

r0bz said:


> I wrote in the original post a low hrc knife (55-58 rockwell)
> I was asking about 2 scenarios
> 1st scenario if I were to deburr on the 800 gritstone
> 2nd scenario if I were to touchup on a 800 gritstone when I feel the knife lost a little of its bite instead of honing on a steel rod


I would caution that a knife is not only described by its hardness. Aus8 @ 58HRC is a very different beast to Cromova @57-58HRC which is different again to Krupps hardened to 55 HRC. That's why you keep getting asked "which knife are we talking about?" Aus8 will take a much finer edge than the Krupps (and the Cromova for that matter).

I have two approaches to deburring, depending on the steel:


For simple carbon steels, I sharpen at a low angle. On the coarsest stone that I will use (this may be a fine stone if I'm just doing a touch up), I use a scrubbing motion, I guess, but with a lot pressure on the trailing stroke and very light pressure on the leading stroke. Once I have created an even burr on each side, I will gradually reduce the trailing pressure in 4 steps, flipping the burr each time. On the final step, the pressure is very light (at most, the weight of the knife) with both trailing and leading strokes. This reducing pressure reduces the burr. You can feel (and often see) bits of burr break off in the final 2 stages. I will then perform some ultra light edge leading strokes ("cutting the water off the stone") then a longitudinal deburring stroke and drag through cork or hard felt.

Any finer stones are used only with light pressure, followed by deburring strokes as above.


For highly alloyed steels (including pretty much any stainless except something like Aebl or perhaps ginsanko), I make sure that the knife is adequately thin behind the edge. I sharpen to a more acute angle than I otherwise might (a zero grind with some knives) because I use the Kippington deburring method (search "Kippington deburring video"), which incorporates a microbevel.


Finally, I would encourage you to broaden your horizons beyond Burrfection for your sharpening tuition.

Look at Pete Nowlan's (@Sailor) Knifeplanet.net sharpening school for an excellent demonstration of the reducing pressure technique. Also, look at Jon Broida's excellent JKI sharpening series for great advice on technique.


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## Kawa (Dec 13, 2021)

Every knife I do ends with this:

1) finishing on stones by deburring as much as possible: after the normal sharpening this means flipping the knife from one to the other side sooner then before (les strokes per side). I dont go like 10-9-8-7-till0, but I do this by feel. I stop when both sides have about even burr by feel.

2) edge leading stokes only on the last stone. This will mess up your edge the first 30 times. Instead of rubbing up and down (sharpening in sections) you do a whole heel-to-tip motion in one movement. This is new, you have to learn this.
Use sharpie (again) to learn this.
I stop when I think the burr is gone (which after a good check never is.. So I can improve here)

3) edge trailing strokes on a strop. This removes the final burr for me.

I check with a flashlight. Put the light flat on the side of the knife, aiming towards the edge. Check both sides this way. The light will bump against any burr, making it very visable as a white part on the very edge. Do not cut paper before doing this check, because any fibers will light up too.

its a big difference if I check after leading strokes on the stone, or after stropping.


Stropping just doesnt remove the burr if it is too big (unless your abrasive medium is very coarse, like 3+ micron). Without edge leading strokes on the stone, my burr is too big to use a 1 micron strop.


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## ModRQC (Dec 13, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Every knife I do ends with this:
> 
> 1) finishing on stones by deburring as much as possible: after the normal sharpening this means flipping the knife from one to the other side sooner then before (les strokes per side). I dont go like 10-9-8-7-till0, but I do this by feel. I stop when both sides have about even burr by feel.
> 
> ...



Risks of ripping it off being low at 1 micron, I guess that last part has more to do with time, and what stone grit you come from? Pretty sure you can get to a burr easily removable with the strop with trailing on stones too.

Stropping to me is pretty essential either with cheap SS, either when coming out of a coarser stone for some edges I want that way. My only stropping routine is a coupla trailing swipes on newspaper otherwise. I however use cork or soft wood for final stone final deburring when I don't feel or see any burr left under light. Then go back to the stone for 1-2 strokes, check, then newspaper.

And BTW you should always blow on the edge a couple times before light test. It's not just fibers of paper that might show there, but also lint from the towel etc.


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## Benuser (Dec 14, 2021)

For deburring on a coarse stone, I work with sections, and only very short — 1cm, 3/8", very light edge leading strokes. I want to abrade the burr, not push it over to the other side, and not create a new one. All to avoid a waste of material as in edge trailing by large moves. No longitudinal strokes as with finer stones: I want to preserve the scratch pattern. Stropping on my hand palm — edge trailing — to push all debris to the other side. 
Cutting through a cork with the bevels full of swarf. Wiping off with high pressure on a linen towel. Both to be avoided if you mind about some convexing — I rather like it. Checking with my nail along the edge — feeling whether the bevels feel equally smooth. Cheching by cutting the finest cigarette paper and feel whether the cut isn't ragged — and listen. So far for the coarse stones.


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## Bobby2shots (Dec 14, 2021)

Rubz, if you're worried about a "dirty" edge after edge-trailing, just strop your blade on wet newdprint, or, a dish towel,,, or denim,,, drag it across a piece of wood (end grain). Many ways to do it,,no point in over-thinking it. A couple of strokes and you're done.


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## r0bz (Dec 14, 2021)

Bobby2shots said:


> Rubz, if you're worried about a "dirty" edge after edge-trailing, just strop your blade on wet newdprint, or, a dish towel,,, or denim,,, drag it across a piece of wood (end grain). Many ways to do it,,no point in over-thinking it.


wet the newsprint do you mean a news paper ? and why wet it ?


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## Delat (Dec 14, 2021)

I deburr on each stone of a progression. I use an edge-leading full length stropping motion. I can generally feel, hear, and see the burr coming off. Edge-leading with a burr definitely feels different vs no burr (a little bit unbalanced and slippery), and sounds different as well. Visually I can see it coming off - the burr looks like straight thin pencil lines left on the stone, vs the normal gray swarf.

Instead of using a high angle for deburring I just use the same sharpening angle. A few light strokes on each side usually does the trick. 

On my final stone after deburring I’ll do a few light edge trailing strokes then a couple more edge leading just to be sure, and that actually has seemed to give me better results since I started doing it. That’s an abbreviated version of a tip I picked up from someone here.

Then I finish with a half dozen strokes on a loaded leather strop which does refine the edge a bit. Probably not to a degree that would be noticeable in the kitchen but on paper tests it’s noticeable so I just do it just for the satisfaction.


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## ITKKF (Dec 14, 2021)

r0bz said:


> wet the newsprint do you mean a news paper ? and why wet it ?



I guess this is to increase the drag.


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## r0bz (Dec 14, 2021)

Benuser said:


> For deburring on a coarse stone, I work with sections, and only very short — 1cm, 3/8", very light edge leading strokes. I want to abrade the burr, not push it over to the other side, and not create a new one. All to avoid a waste of material as in edge trailing by large moves. No longitudinal strokes as with finer stones: I want to preserve the scratch pattern. Stropping on my hand palm — edge trailing — to push all debris to the other side.
> Cutting through a cork with the bevels full of swarf. Wiping off with high pressure on a linen towel. Both to be avoided if you mind about some convexing — I rather like it. Checking with my nail along the edge — feeling whether the bevels feel equally smooth. Cheching by cutting the finest cigarette paper and feel whether the cut isn't ragged — and listen. So far for the coarse stones.








Edge leading VS. Edge trailing under Magnification – Wicked Edge Precision Knife Sharpener







knife.wickededgeusa.com




does this prove that if used correctly edge leading is better in order to deburr?


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## ian (Dec 14, 2021)

r0bz said:


> Edge leading VS. Edge trailing under Magnification – Wicked Edge Precision Knife Sharpener
> 
> 
> 
> ...



“Prove“ is a little strong, but it’s a nice suggestive picture that seems to conform to my experience.

Btw, how’s your sharpening practice going? Seems to me you’re accumulating a lot of theoretical knowledge, but you don‘t speak much about your own sharpening, which is more important.


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## big_adventure (Dec 14, 2021)

Just to add more concepts for you...

My basic sharpening routine on softer steels is to use "regular" scrubbing motion on a Chosera 1000 stone. It leaves a good-enough edge on anything. My knives never, ever get so dull that I need to go down to a 400 or lower. I deburr with one or two high-angle edge-leading strokes, depending on steel and the burr, then do some edge leading strokes at the sharpening angle to polish and ensure that there is no more burr. On softer steels and even some "mid" steels, I stop there. It's good enough in 3 minutes on every knife in my collection.

For some knives, I'll go up to the Chosera 3000. There, it's how I feel - either I'll do a scrub + deburr full set, or I'll just do a series of edge-leading strokes. Either way works fine.

Stropping on something follows - denim, cardboard, paper, leather, leather with compound - I change it up. This is 3-5 strokes per side.

On friends' knives that are usually garbage and always need full new grinds, I'll start with SG220 or Chosera 400. On cheap, soft steel, I'll deburr and polish here, then just strop on leather, denim or cardboard.

For your questions :

1. I always deburr with a couple of high-angle edge-leading strokes, followed by polishing with a quick series of edge-leading strokes at the sharpening angle. I deburr after any series on a stone that involves edge-trailing pressure. 

2. For stropping or maintenance in between "full" sharpening, I do 3 to 10 edge-leading strokes per side, generally on the same stone I finished the knife on previously. I don't do anything edge-trailing on stones unless I'm doing a full sharpen, because I don't want to raise a burr. Edge-leading strokes don't raise burrs.


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## r0bz (Dec 14, 2021)

ian said:


> “Prove“ is a little strong, but it’s a nice suggestive picture that seems to conform to my experience.
> 
> Btw, how’s your sharpening practice going? Seems to me you’re accumulating a lot of theoretical knowledge, but you don‘t speak much about your own sharpening, which is more important.


I touched up on the 800 gritstone with edge leading stropping and it did good but i find edge trailing easier to do but I am not sure if it performs better


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## big_adventure (Dec 14, 2021)

r0bz said:


> Edge leading VS. Edge trailing under Magnification – Wicked Edge Precision Knife Sharpener
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like @ian said, "prove" is a strong word with what we're doing here. Technique differences are as or more important than method differences. 

The thing to do is to practice. Try, try, try again, until you figure out what works for you. I've been _sure_ I had found the "definitive" method for me, more than once. The fact that I've changed that over time shows that a) it wasn't so definitive and b) the question I was answering probably wasn't the most important question.

A while back, I would bring every knife up to 6k or 8k on the stones, plus longer, very careful stropping. At one point, every knife on my rack was HHT3 sharp or higher. Now? I doubt I'll ever get a knife _that_ sharp again - or if I do, it'll be purely accidental. First off, why waste so much expensive steel? It doesn't dramatically improve the experience in the kitchen. Second, even though I love sharpening, I also love efficiency. If 3 minutes gives me a knife that slices tomatoes with the weight of the blade, why spend 15? I'm not splitting atoms here (and my kitchen really couldn't handle it anyway).


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## tostadas (Dec 14, 2021)

After sharpenings, I do edge trailing several times on each side, then debur with edge leading. You can really see the wire edge falling off if you have a light colored stone. I'll then either run the edge through cork a few times, and do 2 or 3 more super light edge leading swipes on the stone, or simply do some stropping on my jeans. It all works equally well for me, just depends what you like.


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## M1k3 (Dec 14, 2021)

*Practice*, which leads to *Muscle Memory*, which leads to *Better Edges*, which leads to *Easier Maintenance of a Sharp Edge*.


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## ian (Dec 14, 2021)

Seriously. You have enough theory to last you for the next 2 years at this point. Any one of the 10 techniques mentioned will get you a good edge if you practice enough. Figure out what works for you.


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## Jeff (Dec 15, 2021)

r0bz said:


> I've searched the forum for a similar thread didn't see, to find that's why I'm opening the thread
> 
> *for touching up a stainless steel knife (Rockwell HRC 55-58) on an 800 grit water stone what do you use and why* (I can't figure out what is better It's easier for me to strop edge trailing though)
> (a) edge leading stropping
> ...




I notice one is heel-to-tip
and the other is
tip-to-heel.

heel-to-tip just seems unnatural to me on freehand stones.


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## ModRQC (Dec 15, 2021)

Jeff said:


> I notice one is heel-to-tip
> and the other is
> tip-to-heel.
> 
> heel-to-tip just seems unnatural to me on freehand stones.



Ahem... sounds to me like "I didn't even used enough trailing edge strokes in my life yet to realize that a leading one is the exact movement I just did trailing in reverse".

Or: "I don't let my body and brains do some sharpening for me so I don't even know what muscles memory truly means and how I should use it to my advantage. I just like to obsess over details of no consequence since I don't really know what I'm doing and how it impacts real world performance".

Here's a gentle general KKF reminder: if you get consistently rather good results no matter what tricks you try, your body knows 400% better than the best discourse you can put into words over sharpening. And that sentence is basically false since there's nothing that exists like "general" sharpening unless you sharpen dozens of blades from a same company's factory stamp all day long. Then yeah you probably have the narrowest take on sharpening ever discussed but can be right about sharpening always being a predictable set of circumstances you have complete control and mastery over.

If you're smart enough, whenever someone lets you sharpen their favorite 400$+ knife, you'll treat it like one of your owns... and hopefully, you don't treat your own favorite knives like "just any other" you need to put on stones. I guess someone will tell me "Yeah I do and results are 100% scientifically-approved perfect every time.". And the most polite answer I could muster is "Then your body and brains adjust things in ways you're completely oblivious upon".

Which I would then hope wouldn't be perceived as a compliment.


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## ian (Dec 15, 2021)

What? It’s totally legit to be more comfortable with one movement than its reverse. You're using different muscle groups when you push vs pull. Of course you can train your body so you're good at both movements, but I don’t get the point of criticizing Jeff here.

I also don’t get what point you’re making in the rest of the post.


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## stringer (Dec 15, 2021)

I prefer edge leading


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## Bobby2shots (Dec 15, 2021)

r0bz said:


> wet the newsprint do you mean a news paper ? and why wet it ?



Dampening a rolled-up piece of newsprint (or whatever), creates more adhesion for lifting away the fine metal particles. What happens if you spill a bit of flour on your kitchen counter, then try to wipe it away with a dry cloth??? You end up pushing the flour around, but not removing it. With a damp cloth, you wipe and it's gone.


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## daveb (Dec 15, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> *Practice*, which leads to *Muscle Memory*, which leads to *Better Edges*, which leads to *Easier Maintenance of a Sharp Edge*.



Somewhat different than watching Ricky Ticky videos - they're more akin to being hungry and eating bowls of marshmallows...


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## r0bz (Dec 15, 2021)

daveb said:


> Somewhat different than watching Ricky Ticky videos - they're more akin to being hungry and eating bowls of marshmallows...


hahahahahahah


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## tostadas (Dec 15, 2021)

Watching ricky videos will only confuse you more. His technique is inconsistent from video to video, and changes depending on which product he decides to push for the day.


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## r0bz (Dec 15, 2021)

tostadas said:


> Watching ricky videos will only confuse you more. His technique is inconsistent from video to video, and changes depending on which product he decides to push for the day.


you are right he changes technique from video to video


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## daveb (Dec 15, 2021)

Cause he's learning as he goes. 3 months ago he didn't know what edge leading is. 6 months ago he didn't know what thinning is.

But he's got the utubing down...


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## r0bz (Dec 15, 2021)

daveb said:


> Cause he's learning as he goes. 3 months ago he didn't know what edge leading is. 6 months ago he didn't know what thinning is.
> 
> But he's got the utubing down...


he actually did a video saying why you probably will never need to thin your knives!!!
i completely disagree


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## Barmoley (Dec 15, 2021)

r0bz said:


> he actually did a video saying why you probably will never need to thin your knives!!!
> i completely disagree


Makes sense, just buy a new one once the old one doesn't cut well. Could also work in a sequel, "Why you probably will never need to sharpen your knives"

I prefer to finish or touch up edge leading, works better for me in general. Sometimes, I'll do a couple edge trailing swipes, just depends, but most of the time it is edge leading if I finish or touch up on a stone. Like others have said people get excellent or crappy results using both, so try both and see what works for you. Many ways to get there, but you need to practice a lot, no way around it. Then when you think you are good, you realize you are not and it becomes worse before it becomes better again if you don't give up


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## esoo (Dec 15, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Makes sense, just buy a new one once the old one doesn't cut well. Could also work in a sequel, "Why you probably will never need to sharpen your knives"



Buy one? He just moves on to a new sponsor and gets them for free....


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## Barmoley (Dec 15, 2021)

esoo said:


> Buy one? He just moves on to a new sponsor and gets them for free....


Even better. In his case then it makes total sense.


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## Bobby2shots (Dec 15, 2021)

Poor Ryky; I think that kid gets way too much unfair criticism. How many among us can claim to have 271,000 followers? How many people have gotten into sharpening because of Ryky? He's probably handled more knives and stones than any individual on this or any other forum. He strikes me as being a very honest and dedicated individual, and I truly hope he does well. If you've seen any of his videos lately, you're probably aware that his shop was broken into, and virtually all of his equipment was stolen.

About salesmanship; remember that Ryky started out as a spokesperson for Cutlery & More,,, those early videos were not his independant and more recent "Burrfection" videos. Let's give this guy a break and show him a little support.


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## Kawa (Dec 15, 2021)

Bobby2shots said:


> Poor Ryky; I think that kid gets way too much unfair criticism. How many among us can claim to have 271,000 followers? How many people have gotten into sharpening because of Ryky? He's probably handled more knives and stones than any individual on this or any other forum. He strikes me as being a very honest and dedicated individual, and I truly hope he does well. If you've seen any of his videos lately, you're probably aware that his shop was broken into, and virtually all of his equipment was stolen.
> 
> About salesmanship; remember that Ryky started out as a spokesperson for Cutlery & More,,, those early videos were not his independant and more recent "Burrfection" videos. Let's give this guy a break and show him a little support.



Was about to say something like this.
He's a very enthousiastic and inspiring guy who get a lot of people interessted in sharpening.

Next to that, I think he is very humble. He never claims to be one of the best.
For that sake, I consider him someone who's on a sharpening journey as many of us are, and he shows us his story. He's just blessed that he can try out many knives and stones. I wish I could...


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## tostadas (Dec 15, 2021)

Bobby2shots said:


> Poor Ryky; I think that kid gets way too much unfair criticism. How many among us can claim to have 271,000 followers? How many people have gotten into sharpening because of Ryky? He's probably handled more knives and stones than any individual on this or any other forum. He strikes me as being a very honest and dedicated individual, and I truly hope he does well. If you've seen any of his videos lately, you're probably aware that his shop was broken into, and virtually all of his equipment was stolen.
> 
> About salesmanship; remember that Ryky started out as a spokesperson for Cutlery & More,,, those early videos were not his independant and more recent "Burrfection" videos. Let's give this guy a break and show him a little support.


You referring to this one? Stuff like this makes me dislike him even more.





Knife findings


Jiros are up on CKC now.




www.kitchenknifeforums.com


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## IsoJ (Dec 15, 2021)

Ryky might be a good guy, I don't know him so I leave it to that. But I just cant take the sharpening "teaching" very seriously when he doesn't touch subjects like geometry, thinning, cutting food with different kind of edges, wire edges, fatique steel, tool aspect what the knives are made for etc. I just don't know how I am suppose to support the guy when there are dozens of other people who can give me more answers and explain why. I wish him luck anyway and happy for people who feel that he is helping them to get their sharpening skills forward.


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## Barmoley (Dec 15, 2021)

I don't know, but if he is sharpening incorrectly or tells people they don't need to thin their knives then criticism is fair regardless of how entertaining his videos are or how many people they brought into the hobby. This is an enthusiast and expert forum, it would be a disservice to not point out incorrect advice just to spare someone's feelings. Plus, he seems to be doing fine without our support


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## Kawa (Dec 16, 2021)

Well, if you look to it that way, you both certainly have a point.

He isn't the most expert out there, and that makes him wrong sometimes. Certainly legit to point that out on this forum.

I think his content has another place in the sharpening world then 'advice and tips for the advanced sharpener', but it certainly has its value.
The problem is, new people can't see that.
On the other side, would there be anyone around that wants to get into sharpening and only sees Ryky's content and never looks further?


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## spaceconvoy (Dec 16, 2021)

yes, very humble


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## esoo (Dec 16, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> View attachment 156219
> 
> yes, very humble



The problem for me is not that he put his name on the knife - it is that he half assed it and all of knives say 1/250 instead of properly showing the sequence


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## stringer (Dec 16, 2021)

esoo said:


> The problem for me is not that he put his name on the knife - it is that he half assed it and all of knives say 1/250 instead of properly showing the sequence



Maybe that's the model number? Haha


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## esoo (Dec 16, 2021)

stringer said:


> Maybe that's the model number? Haha



We could only wish.


> *Note: 250 knives are made for each handle type. "1 of 250 Launch Edition" is printed on every knife, meaning "one of two hundred and fifty" out of the same handle type. The number is not sequential.


 "Burfection Knife" Ryky VG10 63-Layers Damascus 240mm Gyuto


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## ian (Dec 16, 2021)

spaceconvoy said:


> View attachment 156219
> 
> yes, very humble



Nice lookin Shun.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 16, 2021)

One can see Ryky leading people into this but in my opinion he does more harm than good. He is perpetuating what I consider bad habits and low standards on the most susceptible people. Ya know, he knows chefs who haven't even sharpened their Wusthof in decades and only sushi chefs need to worry about flattening their stones and hey, if that electric pull-through works for you, then that's great!

And hey, while you're here on my channel, check out my store and these sweet thick-ass Chinese knives I hawk at every turn. Puuuuurrrrrtttttyyyyyy.

For as many years as Ryky has been popular I have seen threads, just like this one here, all over the internet of people who've been watching his videos and are flustered that they aren't achieving the results they are after. And the first thing you have to do, is break down their belief that that guy is an expert. Sure, he says some accurate things cuz it's kinda hard not to once in a while but in my opinion he says a lot of inaccurate things as well.

If people like him, fine, but don't expect me to be among them.

All just my opinion of course.


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## big_adventure (Dec 16, 2021)

FWIW, he's definitely one of the people I stumbled across on the YouTubez when I was looking to advance my sharpening game. If you have literally no idea what you are doing at all, he's relatively easy to understand and it takes him 6 hours to explain something that a more-knowledgeable person would explain in 30 seconds. That's annoying to basically everyone frequenting this board, but it's... call it comforting... for people who don't know much. 

Once you start learning, if you care to do so, you realize that he really, truly doesn't know what he's doing. My paragliding instructor mentioned "PPH" takeoffs, where the takeoff works perfectly in spite of errors, or lack of skill. PPH being "purement par hasard" in French, which translates to "purely by chance." Ryky gets some results "PPH" it seems. When he starts talking products, he doesn't... er... see things like I do (and like most of us, here, do)? Yeah, let's put it that way. He doesn't really know what makes a good knife or a bad one, based on my criteria, because, by his own admission, he's basically useless in the kitchen. His technique is significantly worse than my kids' techniques. If you never use a knife, yeah, you probably _won't _understand why thinning is important, why knowing how to fix a tip is useful, and you probably won't be able to get consistent results along the the entire blade. If the end-all, be-all of your testing methodology is "does it drag-cut newspaper"... well, you all understand.

OTOH, we do live in a caveat emptor society. People can use a bit that Ryky shows to start down a sharpening path, and it is on them to know when they have squeezed every last drop of useful information out of the source.


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## Kawa (Dec 16, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> FWIW, he's definitely one of the people I stumbled across on the YouTubez when I was looking to advance my sharpening game. If you have literally no idea what you are doing at all, he's relatively easy to understand and it takes him 6 hours to explain something that a more-knowledgeable person would explain in 30 seconds. That's annoying to basically everyone frequenting this board, but it's... call it comforting... for people who don't know much.
> 
> Once you start learning, if you care to do so, you realize that he really, truly doesn't know what he's doing. My paragliding instructor mentioned "PPH" takeoffs, where the takeoff works perfectly in spite of errors, or lack of skill. PPH being "purement par hasard" in French, which translates to "purely by chance." Ryky gets some results "PPH" it seems. When he starts talking products, he doesn't... er... see things like I do (and like most of us, here, do)? Yeah, let's put it that way. He doesn't really know what makes a good knife or a bad one, based on my criteria, because, by his own admission, he's basically useless in the kitchen. His technique is significantly worse than my kids' techniques. If you never use a knife, yeah, you probably _won't _understand why thinning is important, why knowing how to fix a tip is useful, and you probably won't be able to get consistent results along the the entire blade. If the end-all, be-all of your testing methodology is "does it drag-cut newspaper"... well, you all understand.
> 
> OTOH, we do live in a caveat emptor society. People can use a bit that Ryky shows to start down a sharpening path, and it is on them to know when they have squeezed every last drop of useful information out of the source.



Amen


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## r0bz (Dec 17, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Makes sense, just buy a new one once the old one doesn't cut well. Could also work in a sequel, "Why you probably will never need to sharpen your knives"
> 
> I prefer to finish or touch up edge leading, works better for me in general. Sometimes, I'll do a couple edge trailing swipes, just depends, but most of the time it is edge leading if I finish or touch up on a stone. Like others have said people get excellent or crappy results using both, so try both and see what works for you. Many ways to get there, but you need to practice a lot, no way around it. Then when you think you are good, you realize you are not and it becomes worse before it becomes better again if you don't give up



hahaha
"why you should never worry about thinning your knifes"


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## M1k3 (Dec 17, 2021)

r0bz said:


> hahaha
> "why you should never worry about thinning your knifes"



?????? Any "Chef" who thinks a knife that's fat enough behind the edge to crack harder produce is a hack!


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## big_adventure (Dec 17, 2021)

M1k3 said:


> ?????? Any "Chef" who thinks a knife that's fat enough behind the edge to crack harder produce is a hack!



I mean, you know, unless by "harder produce" he means "elephant femurs" or something. Then you want THICCCCCCC.


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## r0bz (Dec 17, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> I mean, you know, unless by "harder produce" he means "elephant femurs" or something. Then you want THICCCCCCC.


can you translate for me what does he mean by "



> ?????? Any "Chef" who thinks a knife that's fat enough behind the edge to crack harder produce is a hack!




"


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## ian (Dec 17, 2021)

r0bz said:


> can you translate for me what does he mean by "
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He just means you don’t use fat knives to cut hard produce. If you do, intentionally, you are a hack.


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## r0bz (Dec 17, 2021)

ian said:


> If you do, willingly, you are a hack.


what does you are a hack mean ?


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## big_adventure (Dec 17, 2021)

r0bz said:


> can you translate for me what does he mean by "
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, Ryky in one of his many "here's how I prove that I'm _really _not good with knives" moments, mentions that a knife that is thick behind the edge would be better for hard or dense produce.

Thing is, that's the absolute opposite, and, like @M1k3 says, no chef who has spent more than a week or two at their job would ever think that. It's just absolutely contrary.


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## big_adventure (Dec 17, 2021)

r0bz said:


> what does you are a hack mean ?



"Hack" is slang for "somebody who is bad at what they are doing."


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## daveb (Dec 17, 2021)

I don't think Ricky Ticky pretends to be a chef. 

He pretends to be a knife sharpener. He pretends to be a stone expert. He pretends to be a knife retailer. But chef? Not this week - he's got to watch a couple videos first.


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## big_adventure (Dec 17, 2021)

daveb said:


> I don't think Ricky Ticky pretends to be a chef.
> 
> He pretends to be a knife sharpener. He pretends to be a stone expert. He pretends to be a knife retailer. But chef? Not this week - he's got to watch a couple videos first.



Nah, as I mentioned above, one thing I'd give him credit for owning up to directly in one of the random videos I saw him in was that he's not even a decent cook. Which begs questions about why one wants to pass themselves off as knowledgeable about kitchen knives, when one can neither make them nor use them, but that's a question for him, not me.


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## Delat (Dec 17, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Nah, as I mentioned above, one thing I'd give him credit for owning up to directly in one of the random videos I saw him in was that he's not even a decent cook. Which begs questions about why one wants to pass themselves off as knowledgeable about kitchen knives, when one can neither make them nor use them, but that's a question for him, not me.



It’s kinda weird to be obsessed about kitchen knives when you don’t actually like to cook. But I guess if you solely approach them as art to be admired it kinda makes sense. 

But then why spend all that time sharpening knives that don’t get used?


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## big_adventure (Dec 17, 2021)

Delat said:


> It’s kinda weird to be obsessed about kitchen knives when you don’t actually like to cook. But I guess if you solely approach them as art to be admired it kinda makes sense.
> 
> But then why spend all that time sharpening knives that don’t get used?



THAT for me is the weird bit. To the guy's credit, he doesn't take a sharp knife, rub it around, and act amazed or proud that it's still sharp. He dulls knives on bricks or whatever then sharpens them.

Its just... why? I get that it's his business. But what brought him into that? I'd ask, but I wouldn't want to have to watch an hour and a half unboxing video to get to the part where he addresses the question.


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## Barmoley (Dec 17, 2021)

Didn't someone above write that he started as a spokesman for cutlery and more or some such. I think as he became popular talking about knives he had to start sharpening to keep his audience's interest. What else is there to do with knives, you cut then sharpen then cut... Since he mostly cuts paper, I can see why he has misconceptions about knives, sharpening and the rest. Cutting paper and to some degree rope is one of the reasons we have so many badly designed knives in the outdoor and folder space. All my opinions of course, but use dictates design and if all you do is cut paper you get what you ask for. Same with cars and 0-60 times.


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## adam92 (Dec 17, 2021)

I used to like edge trailing, but these days I try leading + trailing together, I found quite nice for me when I need to pull+push cut all day, not sure am I right or not, I saw a video from YouTube before, said the technique like this good for push+pull motion. forgot where's the video from though.


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## captaincaed (Dec 18, 2021)

Whichever method you choose, please pass the results onto this team. They need a little assist in their skills if they hope to publish again.








Experimental replication shows knives manufactured from frozen human feces do not work


The ethnographic account of an Inuit man manufacturing a knife from his own frozen feces to butcher and disarticulate a dog has permeated both the aca…




www.sciencedirect.com


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## Midsummer (Dec 18, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Whichever method you choose, please pass the results onto this team. They need a little assist in their skills if they hope to publish again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pure Gold!!!!! Many thanks!!!!


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## captaincaed (Dec 18, 2021)

"*Highlights*

• An ethnographic account states an Inuit man made a knife from his own frozen feces.
• We experimentally tested knives manufactured from frozen human feces.
• Knives manufactured from frozen human feces do not work."


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## daveb (Dec 19, 2021)

But, but, but, some people like their Mercers,,,


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## tcmx3 (Dec 19, 2021)

Barmoley said:


> Didn't someone above write that he started as a spokesman for cutlery and more or some such. I think as he became popular talking about knives he had to start sharpening to keep his audience's interest. What else is there to do with knives, you cut then sharpen then cut... Since he mostly cuts paper, I can see why he has misconceptions about knives, sharpening and the rest. *Cutting paper and to some degree rope is one of the reasons we have so many badly designed knives in the outdoor and folder space. A*ll my opinions of course, but use dictates design and if all you do is cut paper you get what you ask for. Same with cars and 0-60 times.










____________________
____________________

also re subscriber counts having some intuitive understanding of how to game the youtube algorithm is a completely unrelated skill to your subject matter. in fact in my own industry probably the most popular youtuber had to take a little vacation because he was "borrowing" work from other people because he couldnt grok even the basics of ML.

youtube has a tendency to promote likeable idiots because they appeal to large audiences. I once watched a mashed potato recipe by an extremely, EXTREMELY popular youtuber who tries to put a veil of science over everything and then most of the way in the video he realizes that he didnt, you know, think very much about the type of potato in the dish he was trying to recreate and that was contributing to his failure.

that's actually the best example of being a dumbass I think I've ever seen. likeable guy, entertaining video. kind of an idiot. bazillion views.


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## Delat (Dec 19, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> "*Highlights*
> 
> • An ethnographic account states an Inuit man made a knife from his own frozen feces.
> • We experimentally tested knives manufactured from frozen human feces.
> • Knives manufactured from frozen human feces do not work."



Probably a bad heat treat.


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## Greasylake (Dec 19, 2021)

Delat said:


> Probably a bad heat treat.


The spicier the food the harder the poop knife


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## Delat (Dec 19, 2021)

Greasylake said:


> The spicier the food the harder the poop knife



That’s more of a high alloy billet.


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## Kawa (Dec 19, 2021)

Greasylake said:


> The spicier the food the harder the poop knife



Ahh, the famous brown#2 

With me it's the other way around. Make the food spicy enough, and you can't make the knife into a solid anymore.


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## ikarus (Dec 19, 2021)

Since cutting paper seems like a suboptimal test for the sharpness of kitchen knives, what do you guys recommend to test the sharpness?


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## stringer (Dec 19, 2021)

ikarus said:


> Since cutting paper seems like a suboptimal test for the sharpness of kitchen knives, what do you guys recommend to test the sharpness?



The best knife tests are on the actual stuff you will be using the knife for. Try some tomatoes, eggplants, bell peppers. See how it does through butternut squash. Maybe julienne some carrots. See how it does slicing a beef or pork roast. Chiffonade some basil. Etc.


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## ian (Dec 19, 2021)

ikarus said:


> Since cutting paper seems like a suboptimal test for the sharpness of kitchen knives, what do you guys recommend to test the sharpness?



Paper products are pretty ok for testing refinement of the apex, and whether it’s properly deburred. I like paper towel much better than copy paper, though. As long as you’re not over refining the edge (e.g. as long as you’re finishing on an appropriate grit stone and not stropping the bejesus out of it, or as long as you check for over refinement with the 3 finger test or something), and as long as the knife’s properly thin behind the edge, paper towel does a good job of letting you know how a knife will do in the kitchen. Definitely food is the ultimate test, but it’s not as convenient or practical sometimes. It’s important pay attention to HOW the knife cuts the paper towel, though, not just whether it does.


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## r0bz (Dec 19, 2021)

ian said:


> Paper products are pretty ok for testing refinement of the apex, and whether it’s properly deburred. I like paper towel much better than copy paper, though. As long as you’re not over refining the edge (e.g. as long as you’re finishing on an appropriate grit stone and not stropping the bejesus out of it, or as long as you check for over refinement with the 3 finger test or something), and as long as the knife’s properly thin behind the edge, paper towel does a good job of letting you know how a knife will do in the kitchen. Definitely food is the ultimate test, but it’s not as convenient or practical sometimes. It’s important pay attention to HOW the knife cuts the paper towel, though, not just whether it does.


can you please explain more how can "over-refinement" occur?
and what is "over-refinement"?
also, what happens when I try to deburr with edge leading and I strop edge leading "too many times"?


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## Bear (Dec 19, 2021)

Paper towels are my preferred method, after awhile you'll know where your edge is at, if it's grabby I work on the burr, if it slides before cutting it's probably a little over refined. I guess it all depends on what you are after, I personally like a little bite. The thing about paper towels is that they are consistent, it may take a little while to figure out what you personally like but after that you should know how it should feel and sound on paper, from there you'll have a good idea what it's going to do on food.


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## r0bz (Dec 19, 2021)

Bear said:


> Paper towels are my preferred method, after awhile you'll know where your edge is at, if it's grabby I work on the burr, if it slides before cutting it's probably a little over refined. I guess it all depends on what you are after, I personally like a little bite. The thing about paper towels is that they are consistent, it may take a little while to figure out what you personally like but after that you should know how it should feel and sound on paper, from there you'll have a good idea what it's going to do on food.


what causes over-refinement?
if when I deburr I strop on my 800# stone edge leading too many times will it cause over-refinement?


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## daveb (Dec 19, 2021)

Jon describes over refinement well in one of his vids, he terms it "running". It is when edge is too polished and is not toothy enough to cut. Best example is running on a tomato skin.


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## Barmoley (Dec 19, 2021)

Cutting paper and especially paper towels is a fine test of sharpness, checking burrs, etc. After using it for a while it gives you pretty good information about the edge. We criticize it only when cutting paper becomes the goal. A knife that cuts paper towels well is sharp, it just doesn't tell you if it will wedge in hard stuff or if wet stuff will stick to it or if the edge is too frigile. So check on paper towels after sharpening since it is convenient, but then move on and cut stuff the knife was meant to cut. People who concentrate on cutting paper too much often forget that there is more to the knife than how sharp the edge is and start saying questionable stuff like, "you'll never have to thin your knife" same happens with other sharpness tests, like shaving.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Dec 19, 2021)

I sometimes use paper towels and it is an excellent check but I mostly just use receipt paper. I seem to have an endless supply and it takes very little. But it's primary go-to just because I've been using it for so long that I pretty much know within a slice or two where the edge is at. 

But, that also considers the stone I finished on. If I sharpened my Spyderco Manix 2 on a 300 diamond, I expect it to slice but be rough. If I finished my Akifusa AS on a 4k, then I expect it to be smooth and quiet and able to make turns during the cut. And I know those edges, if they move through the receipt paper the way I want them too, will be good for the tasks I want them to perform.

My typical sharpening edge checking goes something like this:

1. Visual inspection
2. 3 finger edge check
4. Thumb nail (any spots that slide at an angle - usually it's the belly that'll get ya here)
5. Receipt of paper towel

Now, I'm likely going back to the stone and restarting the process anywhere along the way but that is sort of my general progression.


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## big_adventure (Dec 20, 2021)

r0bz said:


> what causes over-refinement?
> if when I deburr I strop on my 800# stone edge leading too many times will it cause over-refinement?



It will never be a problem on an 800 grit stone, basically. It's an issue if you finish on something like an 8K then strop the knife on leather or infused leather or cloth a bunch of times. You polish away all of the tiny toothy bits on the edge, and this knife will then do great on certain things (shaving, slicing raw fish) but might have issues cutting tomatoes or bell peppers for example - it will slide on the skin.


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## r0bz (Dec 20, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> It will never be a problem on an 800 grit stone, basically. It's an issue if you finish on something like an 8K then strop the knife on leather or infused leather or cloth a bunch of times. You polish away all of the tiny toothy bits on the edge, and this knife will then do great on certain things (shaving, slicing raw fish) but might have issues cutting tomatoes or bell peppers for example - it will slide on the skin.


hmm, but if I strop on the old leather belt strop too many passes can it cause over-refinement?
(I strop on it hanging)


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## big_adventure (Dec 20, 2021)

r0bz said:


> hmm, but if I strop on the old leather belt strop too many passes can it cause over-refinement?
> (I strop on it hanging)



You shouldn't strop more than say 5 strokes each side, probably - as I've already mentioned to you and many others have as well. That said, it would probably take 25 strokes minimum to risk "over refinement" when you finish on an 800 grit stone with soft stainless steel.

You are seriously overthinking this. Just use the knives and sharpen when necessary. If you think the knife should work better than it does, modify the technique a bit until the system works better for you.


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## r0bz (Dec 20, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> You shouldn't strop more than say 5 strokes each side, probably - as I've already mentioned to you and many others have as well. That said, it would probably take 25 strokes minimum to risk "over refinement" when you finish on an 800 grit stone with soft stainless steel.
> 
> You are seriously overthinking this. Just use the knives and sharpen when necessary. If you think the knife should work better than it does, modify the technique a bit until the system works better for you.


thank you I used to do 50 passes on the leather belt strop I will do no more than 5 from now on


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## daveb (Dec 20, 2021)

Ntxt


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## Desert Rat (Dec 27, 2021)

r0bz said:


> what does you are a hack mean ?


It originated from "tie hacks", those that hacked rail road ties from fallen timber. A down and dirty form of log hewing. It didn't need to be nice, just close enough. A hack became synonymous with poor work.


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