# What am I doing wrong?



## guitarmanchu (Sep 25, 2017)

So I decided to take the plunge into investing into some fine Japanese knives after years of working with Henckels and Wusthofs. Have a Gesshin Ginga stainless and some Toyamas in Blue-2 that I absolutely love. What a step up! Just bought my first set of stones - 400 grit and a King 1000/6000 combo. The problem is that I'm terrified of wrecking these knives with my weak sharpening skills. 

I've been trying to practice on my cheaper knives before working on these ones. I've watched the tutorial videos by Jon and others on how to sharpen properly, and think I'm doing it right, but I can't get my knives back to their factory edge, no matter how hard I try. I can get a decent sharpen on a coarse 400 stone, but the minute I move to the 1000 or 6000, I lose my edge. Pretty sure I'm keeping the angle the same. 

Granted these cheaper knives are stainless which are harder to sharpen, but I don't understand why my edge is disappearing as I move up grits.

Assuming this is common for a newbie. Is it a pressure issue? Am I not doing enough strokes?

Any sage wisdom?


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 25, 2017)

Guitar, hey we were all scared our first time and anybody that says they weren't is ********. Understand that one of the main benefits of hard Japanese knives is the fact that they sharpen so well very easily. You have to take that plunge to really understand the process. You're not going to damage the knife more than Jon/Josh couldn't fix.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 25, 2017)

A few questions and comments:

1. Are you using the "marker trick" of painting the edge with a Magic Marker so you can see what you are doing? 

2. Do not, repeat, do not use the 400 grit on your Toyamas and Gesshins unless the edge is chipped and needs repair, the knife is dull enough that it has trouble cutting butter, or you are creating a brand new angle for the bevel. 1000 grit is sufficient. Actually, if you just need to touch up the edge, 6000 is fine.

3. Learning to sharpen on soft stainless can be very frustrating. I know it's frightening, but give a try on one of your Toyamas. Paint the edge, make one pass on the stone and examine what you just did with a loupe.

4. Regarding losing the edge, there is a very real possibility that you have created a wire edge (burr) with the 400 and when you move to the 1000 you are just removing the burr and leaving an unsharpened apex. Again, using a marker may help.


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## cenc (Sep 25, 2017)

Make sure your higher grit stones are flat. If you get a diamond plate it will help you keep your stones flat, and generate some slurry for your lower grit stones. Nagura is cheap-ish and a great way to make slurry on synthetic stones.

Are you using enough water and/or soaking your stones prior to use?

Are you feeling for burr formation as you sharpen each side of the edge?

I too own Toyama knives and must agree on the ease of sharpening. I wish maxim would say if it is blue#2 or blue#1. I finish off my Toyama knives with tip to heel and heel to tip passes using light pressure or knife weight pressure. I try to have the stones slurry follow the edge whenever possible. 

I hope some of this relates to your troubles. Cheers.


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## Marcelo Amaral (Sep 25, 2017)

cenc said:


> I too own Toyama knives and must agree on the ease of sharpening. I wish maxim would say if it is blue#2 or blue#1.



Not certain too, but i bet on blue#2 as Watanabe uses blue#2.


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## unprofessional_chef (Sep 25, 2017)

You'll need to find your angle which is one of the most important techniques. Once you get good you won't need the marker trick anymore. You can find the angle by feeling the contact between knife and stone and the sound it makes.



Mucho Bocho said:


> Whats important is to:
> Learn to hold the knife.
> Learn your stones and your steels.
> Learn to read the edge by listening, feeling and observing.
> Learn to test your finished edges.



[video=youtube;8kzGvtX-h8g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kzGvtX-h8g[/video]


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## KimBronnum (Sep 25, 2017)

I used to pres too hard with my left (front) hand and spoiled a lot of enges on that part, before I realised this as the reason why I "lost" the edge midways during sharpening. Be ware of your pressure and speed. And I also agree that deburring with cork or an other way can make a big difference. 
- Kim


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## Benuser (Sep 25, 2017)

With soft stainless, only strop and deburr with the 1k.


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## Nemo (Sep 25, 2017)

Benuser said:


> With soft stainless, only strop and deburr with the 1k.


Just to clarify, do you mean that with soft (Western) stainless, one should sharpen on a coarse (say 400) stone and then move to a medium (say, 1000) stone only to remove the burr (deburr), not to raise a new burr?


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## Benuser (Sep 25, 2017)

Nemo said:


> Just to clarify, do you mean that with soft (Western) stainless, one should sharpen on a coarse (say 400) stone and then move to a medium (say, 1000) stone only to remove the burr (deburr), not to raise a new burr?



That's what I do.


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## guitarmanchu (Sep 25, 2017)

Thanks for the help everyone. What about maintaining an edge that may not need a full sharpen? I'm used to using honing steels with my germans, but I understand that's a definite no go with J-knives. Stropping on a 1k or 6k a good approach?


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## unprofessional_chef (Sep 25, 2017)

guitarmanchu said:


> Thanks for the help everyone. What about maintaining an edge that may not need a full sharpen? I'm used to using honing steels with my germans, but I understand that's a definite no go with J-knives. Stropping on a 1k or 6k a good approach?



Stropping on stone is much more effective than honing on steel. The stropped edge will be sharper and last longer than a steeled edge. I would use the finest stone which is the 6k.


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## niwaki-boy (Sep 26, 2017)

Yes the 6k. One trick that you can do while you still have an edge on those new beauties is to act like your cutting board (wood is best here) is your stone. Hold the knife like you would when sharpening then slowly roll up to the edge while making a light stroke forwards. Once it starts to bite then you are at the edge then just back of a hair and try the whole blade tip to tail. You will start to get an understanding of how to work the tip area. This is basically the same as going on your stones and when you do go to them use the sharpie as previously mentioned!


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## milkbaby (Sep 26, 2017)

+1 on the sharpie trick. Even experienced sharpeners use the sharpie sometimes, and when learning it can teach you a lot.

For a first step when I'm not totally jazzed about an edge, I strop on colored cardstock junk mail or newspaper. If that doesn't work to my satisfaction, then I strop on the 6000 side of a King combo stone. I usually try to I do the minimum and remove the least metal. At some point, a knife may require thinning and a decent progression, but I try to avoid that until it's unavoidable.  Note: my preference is low alloy simple carbon steel, so possibly YMMV if you prefer stainless or other non-similar steels.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 26, 2017)

milkbaby said:


> +1 on the sharpie trick. Even experienced sharpeners use the sharpie sometimes, and when learning it can teach you a lot.
> 
> For a first step when I'm not totally jazzed about an edge, I strop on colored cardstock junk mail or newspaper. If that doesn't work to my satisfaction, then I strop on the 6000 side of a King combo stone. I usually try to I do the minimum and remove the least metal. At some point, a knife may require thinning and a decent progression, but I try to avoid that until it's unavoidable.  Note: my preference is low alloy simple carbon steel, so possibly YMMV if you prefer stainless or other non-similar steels.



Great advise Milk


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## K813zra (Sep 26, 2017)

milkbaby said:


> +1 on the sharpie trick. Even experienced sharpeners use the sharpie sometimes, and when learning it can teach you a lot.
> 
> For a first step when I'm not totally jazzed about an edge, I strop on colored cardstock junk mail or newspaper. If that doesn't work to my satisfaction, then I strop on the 6000 side of a King combo stone. I usually try to I do the minimum and remove the least metal. At some point, a knife may require thinning and a decent progression, but I try to avoid that until it's unavoidable.  Note: my preference is low alloy simple carbon steel, so possibly YMMV if you prefer stainless or other non-similar steels.



Yep, newsprint and only if that does not work do I drop back to my finishing stone for some stropping.  If the edge does not have any bite I give it a few strops on a 1/2k and then go back to the 6k. I think that people get the misconception that you have to "reset" the bevel and do a full progression every time that your knife gives up a little bit of sharpness or bite.


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## Mucho Bocho (Sep 26, 2017)

K813zra said:


> Yep, newsprint and only if that does not work do I drop back to my finishing stone for some stropping.  If the edge does not have any bite I give it a few strops on a 1/2k and then go back to the 6k. I think that people get the misconception that you have to "reset" the bevel and do a full progression every time that your knife gives up a little bit of sharpness or bite.



Also great advise.


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## guitarmanchu (Sep 26, 2017)

One more question re: magic marker trick - do you usually re-apply the marker for each grit? I did it for the initial coarse grind, but not the subsequent ones. Maybe that's my issue.


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## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 26, 2017)

guitarmanchu said:


> One more question re: magic marker trick - do you usually re-apply the marker for each grit? I did it for the initial coarse grind, but not the subsequent ones. Maybe that's my issue.



The marker is to let you see where you are removing metal. Reapply it as many times as you need, regardless of where you are in the sharpening progression, especailly when you are having issues.


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## daveb (Sep 26, 2017)

This. I'll not claim proficiency with sharpening but have done a few. I use a Magnum Sharpie frequently. Make sure you have some acetone (finger nail polish remover) handy.


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## DarkStar (Sep 26, 2017)

What exact models of Wustoff and Henckels do you have? There is a big difference between their crap lines and their better lines. I sharpen Wustoff's all the time with 1k 2k stone. No reason you can't. And no they don't respond to stones the same way as junk stainless does.

Of course they are no where near as hard as my Japanese steel knives, but they are not complete crap either. They will sharpen and they will hold an edge.


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## Benuser (Sep 26, 2017)

K813zra said:


> Yep, newsprint and only if that does not work do I drop back to my finishing stone for some stropping.  If the edge does not have any bite I give it a few strops on a 1/2k and then go back to the 6k. I think that people get the misconception that you have to "reset" the bevel and do a full progression every time that your knife gives up a little bit of sharpness or bite.



Couldn't agree more -- except for brand new knives with often quite a weak factory edge needing a good first stone sharpening. I start than as coarse as I have -- quite a bit behind the edge.


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## K813zra (Sep 26, 2017)

Benuser said:


> Couldn't agree more -- except for brand new knives with often quite a weak factory edge needing a good first stone sharpening. I start than as coarse as I have -- quite a bit behind the edge.



True. I find this particularly true with low to medium end knives. My FKH had a terrible edge on it and needed thinning. Afterward, though, it is a lot of knife for the price.


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## guitarmanchu (Sep 26, 2017)

So I've taken everyone's advice here, and things have improved - thanks for your input. But i still can't get to the point where I can shave arm hair like I could with the OOTB edges. It still seems like I'm losing my edge as I move up grits. Thinking maybe my burr is too small, or maybe I'm applying too much pressure at the higher grits. Should I be using less pressure as the grit increases as a general rule?


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## guitarmanchu (Sep 26, 2017)

Or is it just that these cheap knives I'm practicing on just can't get that fine an edge because of crappy steel?


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## StonedEdge (Sep 26, 2017)

As a general rule, you want to raise the smallest burr possible with your first stone and then use the subsequent stones to abrade away that burr until you're left with a perfect apex. This usually means less and less pressure throughout your progression of stones. You only need to raise a burr one time. Also by the sounds of it, your angle to the stone needs to be kept more constant throughout the entire process (this is just a guesstimation based on your posts)


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## Benuser (Sep 26, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> As a general rule, you want to raise the smallest burr possible with your first stone and then use the subsequent stones to abrade away that burr until you're left with a perfect apex. This usually means less and less pressure throughout your progression of stones. You only need to raise a burr one time. Also by the sounds of it, your angle to the stone needs to be kept more constant throughout the entire process (this is just a guesstimation based on your posts)



I agree, but not for the first burr with the coarsest stone. Most steels will offer a burr-like deformation while the very edge hasn't yet been reached. Raise only one burr, but make sure it's a real one.


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## K813zra (Sep 26, 2017)

guitarmanchu said:


> So I've taken everyone's advice here, and things have improved - thanks for your input. But i still can't get to the point where I can shave arm hair like I could with the OOTB edges. It still seems like I'm losing my edge as I move up grits. Thinking maybe my burr is too small, or maybe I'm applying too much pressure at the higher grits. Should I be using less pressure as the grit increases as a general rule?



You do want to decrease pressure as you go but unless you are really apply a load it should not crush the edge. If you are doing well at the lower grit and not so much at the higher grit it could simply be wobble, that you are not holding a consistent angle. This is more detrimental on your 6k than your 1k because the 6k is loads harder. But the main thing to remember is simply this, it takes time. None of us got the edges we wanted the first time around or at least I would assume so. I know I didn't and it took a long time before I developed the ability to consistently get the edge that I wanted. Keep at it and don't get discouraged!



guitarmanchu said:


> Or is it just that these cheap knives I'm practicing on just can't get that fine an edge because of crappy steel?



Even with cheap steel you should be able to get it to shave arm hair.


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## daveb (Sep 26, 2017)

guitarmanchu said:


> So I've taken everyone's advice here, and things have improved.....
> 
> Or is it just that these cheap knives I'm practicing on just can't get that fine an edge because of crappy steel?



I think a recurring theme here is to chuck the cheap knives and "practice" on what you'll be cutting with. I loathe sharpening cheap cause you can't get a good edge and it won't hold the edge you do get. Break out the good stuff - even if you scuff it or don't get the optimum edge at first that's part of the learning process.


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## unprofessional_chef (Sep 26, 2017)

guitarmanchu said:


> Or is it just that these cheap knives I'm practicing on just can't get that fine an edge because of crappy steel?





K813zra said:


> Even with cheap steel you should be able to get it to shave arm hair.



I sharpened my mom's JA Henckels International Fine Edge Pro on my chosera 2K a few days ago. The edge easily cuts paper, hair, food the same as my VG10 knives at home. 

The Henckels Fine Edge Pro knives are made in China with "nothing special" stainless steel. 

This guy in the video has terrible technique but the point is you can still get a good edge even on cheap steel. Him stropping edge leading on leather is cringe worthy.  He did cheat a bit by using a strop.

[video=youtube;7dFFEBnY0Bo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFFEBnY0Bo[/video]


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## guitarmanchu (Oct 2, 2017)

For those that recommended I try the Toyamas, you were absolutely right. Wow, what a difference sharpening those versus the cheapo stainless knives I was practicing on. I can actually get the edge I want on those knives.


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## TheCaptain (Oct 2, 2017)

Brings a smile to your face, yes?


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## shipbuilder (Oct 4, 2017)

Bravo, sir! Learning is good! To me, the two most important things for me to keep in mind: 1) Variable pressure is my friend, as has been mentioned by others. For me, this is an important aspect of refining the edge. 2) Let my upper body do the work; the hands/arms are largely "knife-holders" to keep the angle consistent. Keep getting better and enjoy the process!
Tom


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## Garm (Oct 4, 2017)

unprofessional_chef said:


> I sharpened my mom's JA Henckels International Fine Edge Pro on my chosera 2K a few days ago. The edge easily cuts paper, hair, food the same as my VG10 knives at home.
> 
> The Henckels Fine Edge Pro knives are made in China with "nothing special" stainless steel.
> 
> ...



Out of curiosity and desire to learn more, what's so terrible about the technique shown in this video?


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## unprofessional_chef (Oct 4, 2017)

Garm said:


> Out of curiosity and desire to learn more, what's so terrible about the technique shown in this video?



I'm a firm believer in edge trailing passes only. You can see him using edge leading passes on the stones and leather strop. Everyone will tell you and this is not debatable to never use edge leading stokes on leather strops. Because you can cut and ruin the leather.

He probably spent almost 2 hours going through a 5 stone progression then a final strop. Which I don't think is necessary.


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## StonedEdge (Oct 4, 2017)

Edge trailing only with strop I understand. Edge trailing only on stones? Don't think so.


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## cenc (Oct 4, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Edge trailing only with strop I understand. Edge trailing only on stones? Don't think so.





Why not? If stone only techniques yield great results? I finish my knives with single passes on each side. I start this process with edge leading and then end with edge trailing on hard ohira suita. This yields arm hair shave sharpness. No strop at all.

Strops kill the refined tooth I can achieve with jnats.


Straight razors are a different story entirely.


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## StonedEdge (Oct 4, 2017)

I'm talking about not using edge leading strokes at all. I use edge leading on stones to finish as well


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## K813zra (Oct 4, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> Edge trailing only with strop I understand. Edge trailing only on stones? Don't think so.



I thought it pretty typical to apply pressure only on trailing strokes. At least that is what I took from the tutorial videos that Jon and Korin put out when I first started sharpening. I do zero edge leading strokes, ever. However, I see no issue with people using leading strokes if that works for them.


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## cenc (Oct 4, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> I'm talking about not using edge leading strokes at all. I use edge leading on stones to finish as well


My apologies, I misunderstood what you were getting at.


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## StonedEdge (Oct 4, 2017)

cenc said:


> My apologies, I misunderstood what you were getting at.


No apology needed! Now that I think about it I think I may have also misunderstood the post i commented on too haha


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## jessf (Oct 4, 2017)

Good thing you switched to practising on the knives you intend to use. I don't see people at the driving range practising with beater clubs then playing with their good ones.

Also, I apply pressure on both the edge trailing and edge leading stroke for a few passes then switch hands and mirror the same action on the other side. To each his own of course but i wouldn't shy away from edge leading pressure.


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## Razor (Oct 4, 2017)

I would stay away from the 400. unless you are removing a huge chip or re-profiling the knife the 1000 is plenty to create a good bevel. Do you have a loop to look at the edge? Can be had on Amazon or Ebay for $6.00 US. Nothing fancy just a simple 30x jewelers loop.

You first need to establish a definite bevel. As close to a single plane across the entire edge on both side converging to a very fine apex. At 1000 grit this is about as sharp as the knife will get. From there you are polishing the bevel and the edge but it is not getting much thinner at the apex. Different polish levels will yield different results on tomatoes, potatoes, meat and fish. A more polished edge should also last longer with proper cutting technique. The 6000 will take a lot of work to remove the 1000 scratches, but you don't really need to. You are just refining the 1k edge and leaving some useful toothyness. To see the effect, take an old dinner knife and work the side of the knife on the 1k stone and look at the result. The work the 6k and see the difference. This is what is happening on your edge.

Also you need a way to know when the bevel i set. Two come to mind. Tomato test. Get a basket of cherry tomatoes. When the bevel is set it should easily cut the skin of the cherry tomato with little pressure. Just hold the tomato in one hand and gently slice at several points on the edge. Some sections will come on line earlier than others. Check the whole edge.

Another is the fingernail test. If you place the edge on your finger nail with just the weight of the edge point down, with a finished bevel the edge will grab the nail and not slide. If not a finished bevel the edge will slide off your nail. Again check the whole edge.

Others will tell you to create a burr on one side and then switch sides and move the the burr to the other side. This works too. But I don't like dealing with burrs and wire edges that need to be removed.


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## unprofessional_chef (Oct 4, 2017)

StonedEdge said:


> I'm talking about not using edge leading strokes at all. I use edge leading on stones to finish as well



What I meant to say is pressure only on edge trailing stroke on stones. And zero pressure on the edge leading stroke to bring the knife back to it's original position for another pass. I'm a firm believer in this technique.

What I was getting at is the guy in the video is clearly applying pressure on the edge leading strokes. And the way he holds the knife with the edge facing away results in a lot of wobble and little control maintaining a consistent sharpening angle.


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## Mucho Bocho (Oct 5, 2017)

Chef, I'd be a little careful with making such strong empirical statements. 

I've always applied equal pressure when sharpening and I can assure you, my edges are long lasting and sharp. 

There are different ways but no inherently absolute way to a sharp knife. Ever see Bob Kramer sharpen?

I'm not changing my technique until I hear Jon weigh in.




unprofessional_chef said:


> What I meant to say is pressure only on edge trailing stroke on stones. And zero pressure on the edge leading stroke to bring the knife back to it's original position for another pass. I'm a firm believer in this technique.
> 
> What I was getting at is the guy in the video is clearly applying pressure on the edge leading strokes. And the way he holds the knife with the edge facing away results in a lot of wobble and little control maintaining a consistent sharpening angle.


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## K813zra (Oct 5, 2017)

There is already a thread discussing in which direction to apply pressure while sharpening. There seems to be no general consensus, people are all over the map. However, Jon shared his thoughts on the matter. 

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/34255-Direction-of-sharpening-pressures

I could care less how people sharpen but when I switched to edge trailing pressure only, my edges improved quite a bit.


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## unprofessional_chef (Oct 5, 2017)

In fact I watched his knife sharpening video on his Zwilling stones yesterday. Not sure how well that works on a full bolster knife. I've used the edge facing away strokes in my sharpening journey. It has always marred or scratched the blade. I feel the pressure points aren't ergonomically natural resulting in wobble.


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## Benuser (Oct 5, 2017)

Pressure on edge trailing leads with me to a more convexed bevel, pressure on edge leading to a straighter bevel.


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