# Reporting Problems with Knives - Good or Bad?



## Dave Martell (Apr 18, 2014)

I have some questions to ask here. 

It appears clear to me that while some members appreciate the unique position that I'm in to provide honest feedback on issues that I see with knifemakers (whose knives I handle by the hundreds) there are also many others who see it as mud slinging on my behalf should I say something negative. 

I've testified many times over that I simply speak the truth about what I see, hoping to help fellow community members in not getting burnt, nothing more or less. I always hoped that my word would be good enough and that people could see the information for what it is but I'm often challenged by nay-sayers so I know that this isn't true. I know that a lot of people don't understand honesty (seeing in others what they themselves can not provide) and to these folks my reviews (warnings) are seen as venomous. I'm certain that my public persona/reputation is negatively affected by reporting knife (maker) problems.

Currently I'm feeling that I'm sticking my neck out for the few who want the truth just to be slit by the many who do not. 


So my questions for all members are...

1. Do you like to be alerted to problems like Takeda is currently experiencing with making knives different (thicker/wedgier) than they have in the past or say a problem like Moritaka has always had (holes in the edge that pop up when sharpening)?

2. Would it better if I kept my mouth shut about such issues? 

3. Perhaps the truth shouldn't be spoken by someone who could be listed as a competitor? Maybe it's best left to the consumers to find out (or not) what they've purchased and do the reporting instead?

4. Do you only want positive reports/reviews? 

5. Is there room for negative reviews in this community? 

6. If you were in my shoes, seeing so many knives, what would you do? Would you speak up and help someone to save their hard earned cash or sit back and keep quiet, not rocking the boat, keeping your public image in tact? 


Please, any and all input is welcome.


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## erikz (Apr 18, 2014)

Please keep providing us with reviews Dave. Both positive and negative. It would be a loss for this community if you didnt.


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## Birnando (Apr 18, 2014)

Reviews on actual products should be allowed imho. 
Be it good or bad.
Meaning, this or that product handled personally.
Going after vendors/makers on a general basis is to me not wanted nor needed for a community like this.
Especially when it comes from what could be seen as competitors.

I personally never pay much attention to vendors or anyone involved in the business in any way..

Where actual info stops and agenda-driven politics begin, nobody knows.

Just my 0.02


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## SpiceOfLife (Apr 18, 2014)

Personally I like to be made aware of such issues. The more you know as a consumer the more of an informed decision you can make at the end of the day regarding the purchase of an item. With the internet the way we buy and sell things has changed drastically. Word spreads (both good and bad) and reviews are something that help those with less experience make a decision. Negative reviews are just as important as the positive ones. 

I take each review I read with a grain of salt, simply because every single person has individual preferences. When it comes to what you write Dave I don't see it as bashing. You're being blunt with what you think. You don't sugarcoat things just to make it easier for others to hear, and I like it. We're all entitled to our opinions and I don't see any reason why you should stop voicing yours, you're not doing it to be malicious you're doing it for the right reasons of trying to educate and help out fellow forum members.

At the end of the day sometimes people might just have a different opinion based on their personal wants/needs. They don't have to agree with you but they should respect your opinion as that, your opinion. You're giving advice and if someone takes it the wrong way then that's their problem. If anything speaking up boosts your image with the people who matter IMHO. Haters gonna hate, don't take it to heart and don't worry about them.

- Steve


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## WarrenB (Apr 18, 2014)

Your honest reviews have been soooooo helpful since I joined and are much appreciated:doublethumbsup: all reviews should be heard whether good or bad. Personally I don't think I could keep quiet about known issues if I was in your position, I guess a lot of us on here have high moral standards and might see it as a duty to pass on information, good or bad. 
But if it causes unwarranted abuse/personal attacks then I guess only you can decide if it is worth the hassle you may get to keep us lot informed of any genuine issues you may come across:thumbsup:


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## icanhaschzbrgr (Apr 18, 2014)

*1. Do you like to be alerted to problems like Takeda*
I'd like to see some possibility to provide feedback back to the manufacturer. While it's good to know about problems, it's much better to try preventing them in the first place. But if you wanted just a yes/no answer, then my answer would be "yes" for this question.

*2. Would it better if I kept my mouth shut about such issues?*
That's only for you to decide as I don't think there could be any good strict rules.

*3. Perhaps the truth shouldn't be spoken by someone who could be listed as a competitor? Maybe it's best left to the consumers to find out (or not) what they've purchased and do the reporting instead?*
I believe any truth is subjective, so revealing your truth doesn't means everyone would benefit. Some would agree, other would call you an idiot. That's just normal life.

*4. Do you only want positive reports/reviews? *
Yes. Though I'm pretty sure it's utopia.

*5. Is there room for negative reviews in this community? *
Yes. But reviewer should really strive to keep emotions negative aside. At least from my experience I know it's just too easy to drown in negative emotions loosing any remaining of common sense and objectivity. 

*6. If you were in my shoes, seeing so many knives, what would you do?*
I'd make a cup of coffee and keep enjoying life  You've probably done a lot of good things in life so continue doing it.


It feels a bit weird trying to give advices to someone from the other half of globe, especially when this someone is much older and experienced person but I just couldn't resist, sorry


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## WildBoar (Apr 18, 2014)

Dave, I think you guys who sharpen are in the best position to notice trends related to knifemakers' workmanship and geometry issues, as you guys see a lot of knives. And you personally likely see quite a bit more than most of the sharpeners who do not make a full-time living at it. I welcome your observations of the trends, even if you do produce knives yourself.


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## James (Apr 18, 2014)

1. Yes.
2. Nope.
3. No. You have a lot more experience than consumers and it helps consumers get the products they want. 
4. Nope, best to know the good and the bad. Every knife has its pros and cons; I want to hear both and see whether imo the pros>cons
5. Definitely. Ideally, the vendors would talk to the smiths after seeing the problems you bring up and the smiths would do their best to correct it. Naive, but there's always hope.
6. Keep doing what you're doing. It's a very valuable asset to the community


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## larrybard (Apr 18, 2014)

My $.02: To the extent that you are perceived as in any respect a competitor of anyone whose work you criticize in some manner (no matter how well-founded or constructive), there is an appearance of conflict. That having been said, I personally believe -- based on my very limited knowledge, and as pretty much a newcomer on KKF -- that it would be a shame for you to abstain from expressing your views (positive or -- arguably even more important -- negative); I regard you and your opinions as an extremely valuable resource on this list. I think that as with almost any expressions of opinion there is often some subjectivity, however, as a matter of common sense a reader should understand that and decide for themselves how much weight to attach to what you say. In your case it is quite apparent to me that you act with great integrity, knowledge and experience, and the substance of what you express should be judged accordingly. So I would hope that you don't run to the sidelines when there is an opportunity to help many of us by sharing your wisdom. However, I would understand if you feel as if any [unwarranted] criticism by a few of your views makes you reluctant to speak out. That would, I think, be a loss for many of us.


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## Derek Swanson (Apr 18, 2014)

Dave the info you provided about Takeda's knives was very helpful to me. I was planning on ordering from him but now I will wait a bit and do some more research.
Thanks,
Derek


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## Birnando (Apr 18, 2014)

Derek Swanson said:


> Dave the info you provided about Takeda's knives was very helpful to me. I was planning on ordering from him but now I will wait a bit and do some more research.
> Thanks,
> Derek



And this post would be the perfect example of why speaking up can be such a difficult task for someone like the op.

To those who haves hung around here for a while, the conflict between the op and one of the vendors of that brand has influenced this board to the extent that the very name of that vendors shop is prohibited to name here.

Where does objectivity stop and ulterior motives take over?
If at all?

I am in no way saying the op isn't 100% genuine and factual in reporting what he sees, be it good or bad.
Then again, I cannot guarantee he is, considering the back-story regarding ******* and his web-shop.

In the end though, it all comes down to Caveat Emptor and all that..


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## RCG (Apr 18, 2014)

This horseshit makes it really difficult for a tyro to be sure he is getting an objective opinion, when there is a policy of not allowing a competitor's name to be mentioned, or replacing it with asterisks.

You asked for opinions ... you got mine.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 18, 2014)

I believe that the issues between myself and CKTG are part of the trouble of me speaking honestly, or how what I say is perceived. I helped to create those issues as much as the other did so I blame only us here, well and Ken too. LOL  

_FYI - CKTG was banned here not because of competition but because of actions/behaviors and then eventually so was his store's links blocked, he got what he deserved. If the membership deems that as an issue then bring it up to the forum owner and let them decide if they want to continue with the ban or not. I'd advise both here and in private that allowing them in would be like taking a cancer pill but it's not my business anymore so please understand that._

All that aside I ask; would my take on Takeda or Moritaka be any more valid if CKTG didn't sell those brands and say my best friend did? Could people then see that I was speaking honestly and not bashing? What if I was just a sharpener as I was for 7 yrs before? I wouldn't be competition to the maker then, would my points be easier to believe?

And for the record, I don't sell Takeda or Moritaka so I'm not a competitor to CKTG and since I don't forge village blacksmith style knives I'm not a competitor (in a direct sense) to these makers. 

I'd also like to point out that I've lost a crap load of $$$ from not being able to sharpen every Moritaka that's come my way over the years and now I have to (once again) chose to be honest (with Takeda customers) or be branded (by CKTG) as someone looking to do damage to them and/or the maker. Funny thing,I bet that outside of Takeda's workers I've sharpened more of those knives than anyone else in the world and while I praised them always for being my favorite knife to sharpen I never heard a word mentioned as to me being a Takeda shill or helping Takeda too much. 

I now know what the deal is, it's just that I have to decide if I should continue sharing this with the community or leave it alone because as it is I'm doing myself no favors with sharing.


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## Reede (Apr 18, 2014)

What if it is a paying forum vendor?


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## Pensacola Tiger (Apr 18, 2014)

Reede said:


> What if it is a paying forum vendor?



Tosho Knife Arts carries Takeda knives ...


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## Dave Martell (Apr 18, 2014)

Reede said:


> What if it is a paying forum vendor?





Pensacola Tiger said:


> Tosho Knife Arts carries Takeda knives ...




Well this is going to sound bad coming from me but who cares...

If you're looking for a Takeda, Tosho is where I recommend going to. Ivan knows knives, he's put in the hard hands on work to get where he is today, for those reasons I trust him 100% to make sure that you get a good knife.


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## jimbob (Apr 18, 2014)

You mentioned feeling like your sticking your neck out for the few, but I think it would be overwhelmingly the other way around. Most appreciate honest reviews and also respect your experience therefore your opinions


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## rami_m (Apr 18, 2014)

as someone who didn't know anything about knives a month ago, and who went to David to get advise, I can say 2 things. 
1. the guy was honest enough to tell me he didn't know something.
2. he didn't try to push his products on me ( I didn't even know he made knives at the time).

If not for for David and others like him I wouldn't have ordered a custom, or be a member of this community still. 

so I would back up your right to say whatever you want, just put out your opinions and more importantly why you arrived at them. and everyone can make up their own mind. 
not every body needs to agree, but every body should be able to feel free to express an opinion


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## Birnando (Apr 18, 2014)

Dave Martell said:


> All that aside I ask; would my take on Takeda or Moritaka be any more valid if CKTG didn't sell those brands and say my best friend did? Could people then see that I was speaking honestly and not bashing? What if I was just a sharpener as I was for 7 yrs before? I wouldn't be competition to the maker then, would my points be easier to believe?



More credible, yes.
To me it would be just an opinion amongst others.
Well, an opinion from someone working the boards for as much cred as possible, as that is what puts food on your table at the end of the day.
As it is right now, I cannot help but allow the history to discredit what you say in regards to those products somewhat.
I'm sorry if that is offending to you, but that is how I see it.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 18, 2014)

No offense taken in any of the posts guys. I appreciate your input no matter what! 

Thank you


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## The Anti-Chrysler (Apr 18, 2014)

A review from Dave is probably as credible as it gets, as he handles and sharpens probably dozens of knives a day. Who better to find grind/profile/heat treat issues?Having to pay someone a couple of hundred bucks, or if you're handy, spending several hours to fix a new knife that cost over say---$50, strikes me as ridiculous. 
Since I'm not possessed of the means to be able to shrug off a $200-$500 bad knife purchase, truthful, objective reviews from a credible source are absolutely welcome in my book.


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## echerub (Apr 19, 2014)

A few years ago now, Dave's observations, thoughts, and reports shared with the community were a big part of my learning process. At one point, I really did wonder if one of the disagreements that I saw at the time was really as "bad" as it seemed. I tried something from the other party, and the result was exactly as Dave's observations had been. I had in my hands something that convinced me Dave was truly calling it as he saw it, and he wasn't bashing the other side - the other side really didn't know what they were talking about. In that particular case, it wasn't just an individual saying, "My knife is fine!" but someone saying he knew his stuff and his techniques and Dave didn't.

When we can no longer say both positives and negatives, then the community will no longer be one of mutual interest in great knives but simply an echo chamber for praises and marketing hyperbole. It's the fact that folks can say what they see and experience with the knives they've got in their hands that makes the discussions and opinions here truly worth something.

There is definitely variability in the knives that we buy and use. I don't see nearly as many knives as Dave does as a sharpener, but the crazy kook that I am, sometimes I buy more than one copy of a particular knife that appeals to me. I see variability even in the small greater-than-one sample sizes that I get sometimes. Just because Dave says he's noticed a positive or negative tendency or trend with a particular line of knives or maker's knives doesn't mean that your particular sample will exhibit the same characteristics. You might get one that's great, or you might get a lemon. But really, it says something if Dave sees patterns and trends in the knives that he comes across.

Same thing goes with folks like Jon from JKI and Ivan at Tosho. They see a lot more knives than most of us ever will. If they notice something positive or something negative, it's worth paying attention.

I would say two things are important: showing or telling us the evidence (and reasoning if there's an extrapolation or deduction that comes from it), and noting when self-interest *could* be perceived as a confounding factor.

Dave, Jon and Ivan have proven themselves to be honest and to have integrity. That's a testament to the track record that they've established with the folks they've dealt with. It doesn't mean that they know everything or are perfect, but it's something to take into account along with the breadth of experience that they have when it comes to knives.


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## chibok (Apr 19, 2014)

Hi,
I've never posted before. I've been shopping for a new knife for a couple of months, and I'm sure there are a hundred out there like me who've read thousands of posts on this site. I can't believe you're still catching sh88 about this. I also can't believe you're letting it bother you in the least... To me and people like me, your expertise and generosity is seen and appreciated for what it is. The respect your peers and clientele have for you is evident in hundreds of posts. I enjoy coming here and learning something. You're the dude who sees the knives. No one's paying you for this (in fact, I don't know how you manage to get any work done around there for the amount of time you spend fairy-god-fathering here). I appreciate it. I know people thank you for your input here all the time. Probably not a lot of lurkers (info gatherers maybe) come out and write you a nice thank you note out of the blue but we're out here. So; sorry, and thank you. 

be cool fool.


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## Chuckles (Apr 19, 2014)

^^ Gotta like that one. ^^

Of course many many people pay Dave to look at knives but I like the tone of the post.


Having been in the situation of sending Dave one of his own early knives, I can say that his honest assessment of knives is not limited to knives from CKTG or any specific maker. He is as brutally honest with his own work as anything he has posted about other makers. 

Dave, if you start making as many knives as Moritaka and Takeda then maybe hush up a bit. As long as your business is working on other people's knives I would love to hear about it.


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## ThEoRy (Apr 19, 2014)

Chuckles said:


> He is as brutally honest with his own work as anything he has posted about other makers.




Probably more so. I know I'm my own worst critic.


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## Erilyn75 (Apr 19, 2014)

I think the claims about you being bias are pretty baseless. You've always been completely honest and forthright about what you see and work on regardless of the maker or vendor. Case in point, my Takeda, which was not purchased through CKTG so no one can say your assessment of it was because of any angst you may have. 

There really is no one better to report problems like this than from the very person who works on them. You're not the type of person to sit by quietly and let people waste their money on crappy knives just so you can make money off fixing them. In fact, when it was suggested that I send my Takeda to you for fixing, you were not too keen on that prospect if I recall lol. Though you would have done it if I couldn't get it worked out with the vendor or couldn't find anyone else. Which there were no shortage of volunteers <3<3

You shouldn't change who you are or how you operate just because a few grumblers.


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## Chefu (Apr 19, 2014)

I haven't been a member for very long although I've studied the KKF forum for quite some time. I do so because I feel there are many here that have valuable insights into expensive kitchen knives. None of us are perfect and we certainly can have bias, but there are a few members here that I trust completely for their opinions. Dave happens to be one of them. The very fact that he has had so much exposure to so many different knives is in itself valuable. Please continue to speak up when your conscious calls. Both good and bad reviews are essential to making purchasing decisions. Each of us has to sort out information from who is giving the review and make our own decisions from there.


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## cheflarge (Apr 19, 2014)

F' the nay sayers! I have learned so much from Dave's reviews and posts, all of which has made my decision process in procuring new knifes much more educated. It is because of Dave (and others) that I continue to participate on this board and learn new stuff every day! For this I thank you. Not sure what the CKTG stuff is all about (heard a lot of different stories), but try not to get involved in it.


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## brianh (Apr 19, 2014)

chibok said:


> Hi,
> I've never posted before. I've been shopping for a new knife for a couple of months, and I'm sure there are a hundred out there like me who've read thousands of posts on this site. I can't believe you're still catching sh88 about this. I also can't believe you're letting it bother you in the least... To me and people like me, your expertise and generosity is seen and appreciated for what it is. The respect your peers and clientele have for you is evident in hundreds of posts. I enjoy coming here and learning something. You're the dude who sees the knives. No one's paying you for this (in fact, I don't know how you manage to get any work done around there for the amount of time you spend fairy-god-fathering here). I appreciate it. I know people thank you for your input here all the time. Probably not a lot of lurkers (info gatherers maybe) come out and write you a nice thank you note out of the blue but we're out here. So; sorry, and thank you.
> 
> be cool fool.



+1

And fwiw, Dave told me the felt strops at CKTG were garbage, but I thought I'd try one anyway, and sure enough it was a waste of money. Soft and fuzzed up like an old sweater after a few uses. Got one from Marko that is insanely better. 

He complained about Takeda's grinds at a knife sharpening class when I brought one, I had just bought the knife and didnt want to hear this was why the thing was wedging even in basic veges. 

Dave tells it like it is, whether you like it or not.


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## matt79 (Apr 19, 2014)

Dave you should definitely keep up the reviews especially the ones alerting people to problems with certain knives,makers or vendors .I find it strange that anyone would take offence with this. I have found this forum to be great source for honest oppinions on knives and everythimgrelated.as tp daves perceived personal bias against cktg I have read about some of the issues on this forum and have no personal involvement in the matter.that said as one of the unfortunate people who ventured other kitchen knife forums before ending up here and have experienced first hand the shady advertising tacticts and deliberate use of wrong information used by cktg and his affiliates.i find weird that anybody here would endorse or defend such behaviour and I for one am happy that dave and othets on this forum sayit how it is


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## Lizzardborn (Apr 19, 2014)

Providing objective information and increasing market transparency is essential. A product with issues does not mean often a lost sale - every product has its own and you have to choose the one with the issues that are least important to you. 

From what I have read also Dave usually gives facts not opinions - they are easily verifiable. 

I purchased my first gyuto after reading extensively on these forums. I knew the issues my purchase had and I went with it. 

1. Do you like to be alerted to problems like Takeda is currently experiencing with making knives different (thicker/wedgier) than they have in the past or say a problem like Moritaka has always had (holes in the edge that pop up when sharpening)?

Yes. It is something that a customer needs to make informed purchase. Of course if the vendor/maker fixes and improves/solves the problem that should also be noted. It is bad to be haunted with urban legends long after the issue is gone (that is somewhat a problem with the way google gives more weight to older resources).

2. Would it better if I kept my mouth shut about such issues? 

It would probably be better for one or two vendors in the short term. I would be negative for the health of the community. A lot of people here are first timers or with not so good knife culture. And a lot of the more experienced guys and girls try to educate their relatives. They need good solid info.

3. Perhaps the truth shouldn't be spoken by someone who could be listed as a competitor? Maybe it's best left to the consumers to find out (or not) what they've purchased and do the reporting instead?

A truth is a truth. Disclaiming that you compete should be enough. A consumer buying a lemon gives a bad taste and sours future relationships.

4. Do you only want positive reports/reviews? 

I want reviews that give accurate picture of the products.

5. Is there room for negative reviews in this community? 

Yes

6. If you were in my shoes, seeing so many knives, what would you do? Would you speak up and help someone to save their hard earned cash or sit back and keep quiet, not rocking the boat, keeping your public image in tact? 

Japanese style knives have the hard earned image of excellent high performance tools due to traditions, culture and a lot of efforts put by the marketers and vendors. Relevant disclosures keep that image intact which helps maintain their price premium.

I am not sure that it is possible though for knives but every good PC hardware review site have living documents about their review process and testing methodology which is open for scrutiny. The closest I have seen with knives reviews is on zknives.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm blown away (in a good sense) by the comments here. You folks are the best, thank you.


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## Yamabushi (Apr 19, 2014)

I would most definitely prefer the your unfettered, uncensored, expert opinion, Dave! That's one of the primary reason's I am here. It's the no nonsense high quality members and their valued opinions and experience that make this the #1 kitchen knife site, IMHO! Please, keep doing what you are doing!


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## RCG (Apr 19, 2014)

The overwhelming response to Dave's question has convinced me that to lose his honest reviews would be a great loss to the site.

Please add my voice to the chorus asking Dave to carry on doing what he has been doing here.


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## Sabaki (Apr 19, 2014)

I think you are doing a great thing notifying us all, good or bad

sometimes u throw out words like barbwire and and this forum would be very quiet without you:thumbsup:


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## sachem allison (Apr 19, 2014)

personally, Dave, I think you suck lemons.


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## bkim (Apr 19, 2014)

Stay unbiased and they are good.


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## Yamabushi (Apr 19, 2014)

bkim said:


> Stay unbiased and they are good.


Not having a go at you, but IMHO, nothing is truly completely objective. Everything is relative. Despite our noble best efforts, everything to some degree is subjective/biased. Dave's experience and subjective opinion is exactly what many of us here appreciate, as clearly demonstrated by the outpouring of support above!


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## Keith Sinclair (Apr 19, 2014)

I had been wanting a Takeda for a long time. When Dave first brought this up it made me look for a good condition older model which cuts fine.

Being a sucker for hand forged Japanese carbon steel, I like looking at slag finish wt. a 10X led light gives character to the blade.

My Tamahagane has much texture in the steel, not a perfectly smooth blade at all. When I Acetone off the protective layer they put on so will not rust ,the texture really emerged. Most people would not like these types of knives wt. the imperfections, thats why different strokes for different folks. And it gets razor sharp like a SB Yanagiba.


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## labor of love (Apr 20, 2014)

correct me if im wrong, but i notice that you only criticize businesses not associated with kkf. i would have a better time believing your criticisms if you occasionally mentioned some of the faults of the knife makers/vendors here at kkf. but for some reason you never seem to.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 20, 2014)

labor of love said:


> correct me if im wrong, but i notice that you only criticize businesses not associated with kkf. i would have a better time believing your criticisms if you occasionally mentioned some of the faults of the knife makers/vendors here at kkf. but for some reason you never seem to.




A most excellent observation!

Unfortunately I've only had low number (limited) access to a lot of what is made by the knifemakers here. I'd say that the most knives I've seen from any maker would have to be Devin's and I'm on record for what I think of those, I've spoke a lot about them in the past. I just haven't seen a lot from the other guys so what can I say in that case?

As for Japanese knives being sold by vendors here, I haven't run into any issues that would prompt me to mention a problem but that's not unlike the other 90+ (or whatever the number actually is) brands that CKTG sells that I've never said a bad word about. 

All that being said, it's true that I likely won't be seen putting out negative reviews on fellow KKF vendors. I've been down that road at KF and I've learned that's not wise to do as it promotes in fighting which leads to bad blood. That's just a reality of getting along with your colleagues. Will this be seen a loss of credibility? Sure, by some.


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## cookinstuff (Apr 20, 2014)

I have only noticed Dave point out 'issues' with stock blades, I don't think you scrutinize customs the way you scrutinize, say a moritaka or takeda, one of which is sold by a vendor on this forum. So, for Dave to comment on somebodies custom knife from a maker here would kind of be odd, if I don't mind saying. He will however point out an issue with a popular knife that alot of people may be purchasing and sending in for sharpening. 

If most don't remember Dave had a couple Moritakas in for sharpening, he basically put a hole into the edge and had to buy the customer a whole new knife, now he is basically covering his ass, and letting it be known, he will not sharpen a moritaka, because he doesn't want to have to buy a customer a new knife, clearly the signs of a good guy. Dave is a very open person, he will tell you he won't make a handle out of a wood he doesn't feel comfortable working with, or sharpening a knife that he knows may have issues that will only reveal themselves once it's too late.

I joined this forum because of the community that Dave helped create, which was one where people could talk knives, good and bad, lets not turn this into a big 5/5 review website like another I know.... I mean you can see a review on this site of a Bill Burke gyuto that doesn't exactly do as well as basically every single gyuto on that site we know, I mean how do you chose between all of those 5 star gyutos?...... how is that a bad thing? Let's just keep the reviews civil and not turn it into a slander fest, but I'm sure most restaurant workers are pretty okay with writing a decent review, as unjust reviews affect most of us HUGELY. I doubt any cooks would right a review ripping someone a new one unless they absolutely deserved it. 

That's my rant, thanks for keeping it real Dave.


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## panda (Apr 20, 2014)

if you deem it ok not to share negative opinion on knives from kkf vendors, why did you feel the need to share your view on moritakas and takedas? 

negative opinions are inevitable and are much better than having sugar coated fake 'reviews', i'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. i'm chalking that up to sheep mentality or fear of being scrutinized by peers.


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## echerub (Apr 20, 2014)

For folks who are vendors here, if they've noticed not-so-great elements in other vendors' work, they might choose to share those observations directly via PM out of respect in a shared communal space.

Don't folks voice their assessments of other teams' players differently from the way they voice assessments to their own teammates?


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## Birnando (Apr 20, 2014)

echerub said:


> For folks who are vendors here, if they've noticed not-so-great elements in other vendors' work, they might choose to share those observations directly via PM out of respect in a shared communal space.
> 
> Don't folks voice their assessments of other teams' players differently from the way they voice assessments to their own teammates?



Well, let's just hope a visitor or new member are able to see thru the double standards in that. 
Imo, you review anything based on a set standard or you don't do it at all.

If not, all this place is, is a market place for the reciding vendors and their fanboys, not a community of like minded people sharing in a mutual interest.


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## echerub (Apr 20, 2014)

Dave's not a regular member though. He's a vendor. While he may, as a result of that, choose to be selective about what he says about other vendors' work, no regular member needs to choose to do so. Regular members can say whatever they want about whomever's work they want because for regular members nobody else around here is *working* in the same space. We're here only for the enjoyment of it.

I'm not saying Dave only limits any negative comments about other KKF vendors' work to PM only - maybe he has no comments about their work either way. I don't know what he has or has not said to others. I was simply suggesting he might be doing that. If it has any bearing, remember that one of the current makers whose work has our negative attention is Takeda, but one of our vendors *here* carries Takeda knives.

Consider also that the vendors here don't loudly tout their own works as the greatest things since sliced bread, either. Consider also that Dave doesn't loudly proclaim the positives of knives either - not even his own. So it's not like he's saying hey mine's the best and the others are trash.

Note also that Dave isn't actually giving reviews - pluses and minuses - and we know that. He has just pointed out where he's seen problems. The very nature of his role as a professional sharpener means that he sees more of the problem side of things than the pluses - he fixes knives, he doesn't use them. So I would posit, based on my understanding, that he is like a medical professional who sees the problems the human body can have much more than he is like a sports coach who sees the great performance the human body is capable of.

Anyways, I'm not going to change anyone's minds here. Take anyone's input here as input and evaluate it yourself - and yes, new members and visitors must do that. This is why it's confusing when we start learning about cooking knives.


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## The Anti-Chrysler (Apr 20, 2014)

The two brands with problems specifically mentioned here, Moritaka and Takeda, aren't inexpensive knives. I'm kind of reiterating here, but I would sure love to know ahead of time if I'm going to have spend another $100-$150 to have someone 'fix' one of them before they can even be used. That sentiment would apply to any maker's knives, whether they are vendors here on not. IMO, any time someone offers a product or a service, they should be receptive to some constructive criticism in order to improve their product.


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## Birnando (Apr 20, 2014)

The Anti-Chrysler said:


> The two brands with problems specifically mentioned here, Moritaka and Takeda, aren't inexpensive knives. I'm kind of reiterating here, but I would sure love to know ahead of time if I'm going to have spend another $100-$150 to have someone 'fix' one of them before they can even be used. That sentiment would apply to any maker's knives, whether they are vendors here on not. IMO, any time someone offers a product or a service, they should be receptive to some constructive criticism in order to improve their product.



Not even usable, eh?
No disrespect man, but that sounds pretty much like rubbish to me.
I'm in no way arguing the findings of Mr. Martell or others regarding these two brands, I'm sure they have valid issues regarding specimens of those brands.
But unusable? 
Like they will stop in the middle of an onion regardless of force you apply to the blade?
Come on!

What I am having issues with is the severity, or balance if you will, of said issues, compared to products from say JKI or JNS.
Or perhaps some of the many knifemakers on here.
The problem is, we aren't provided with reviews with the same scrutiny from Mr. Martell or other vendors regarding those, now are we?
And that is what I am questioning in this thread.

It makes for unbalanced and biased reporting worth little to nothing to an objective outsider.

Now, Mr. Martell and other vendors on this board are from what I understand very good at what they do.
Furthermore, they might very well be of the finest character, reporting as factual and precise as all that.
But the back story is still there, admitted to by Mr. Martell himself.
Both in regards to the conflict with that certain vendor/person and with the loyalty towards fellow vendor-members of KKF.
Arguing that those facts are ignored fully when making a post here, to me, sounds rather gullable.
After all, they rely on income from you, the members on here, to feed their families.
That does not constitute objectivity. 
Far from it, IME.

As to being receptive of factual criticism, we are in agreement.
Factual being the key-word.


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## panda (Apr 20, 2014)

in my opinion if you arent capable of doing a simple 'fix' you really shouldnt be using expensive knives to begin with.. a good knife doesnt make you better at using them, if anything it works against your development.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 20, 2014)

panda said:


> if you deem it ok not to share negative opinion on knives from kkf vendors, why did you feel the need to share your view on moritakas and takedas?




I never said it was OK to not share negative opinions on knives from KKF vendors. What I did say is that I wouldn't share them IF I actually had something to share about them which I don't. 

Moritaka & (more recently) Takeda's problems are worth mentioning as they're clear issues that have been repeated, continue to be seen, and show no change on the horizon since they've been discounted by makers and retailers alike. I couldn't class these situations with anything else I know of, certainly not any KKF vendor's wares. 

The difference is clear problems with two makers vs no problems with others.


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## Dave Martell (Apr 20, 2014)

Also, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not reviewing knives per se - it's more of reporting issues that are seen over and over again. Issues....and this is key.....that aren't something that an end user can fix. 

For example, Moritaka edge holes have only (to my knowledge) been remedied by (Ken) grinding away part of the edge often in ways that change the knife from it's proper form to mutant status. For Takeda (again to my knowledge), either the maker himself (or Ken) grinds the bevels way up into the blade face where they belong. So in these two instances it's either the maker or a retailer's partner/agent who fix the knives properly or otherwise. It is not reasonable to expect an end user to mutilate their new Moritaka so that it won't work as designed or to properly grind their new Takeda so that it won't wedge in an onion.


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## The Anti-Chrysler (Apr 20, 2014)

panda said:


> in my opinion if you arent capable of doing a simple 'fix' you really shouldnt be using expensive knives to begin with.. a good knife doesnt make you better at using them, if anything it works against your development.



The point I'm trying to make (politely) is that if I were spending $370 for a gyuto (Takeda 270mm gyuto for example), I darn well shouldn't have to fix a thing. For nearly $400, I expect a turn-key ready to go knife.


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## jared08 (Apr 20, 2014)

I think part of the conflict here Is the idea that ANY of the 90+ brands from cktg are discredited or not even given a chance, bc of who sells them. There is always a recommendation to get something from a vendor on here, which admittedly, most of them haven't even been handled before. You can't tell me you have tried every knife and none are better than something from Jon or maxim, probably at a better price.
There was conflict on a different forum in the past for you providing negative feedback about another vendors product, so you are gunshy about it now. That is a lack a credibility when it comes to holding a standard across the board.

Cktg only allows a positive post in their forum or review on a knife. It seems that is happening here with the vendors products. Just bc I good guy sells it doesn't mean it can't be a bad Apple.

I'm done ranting.
Prolly had a bit much to drink so take it with a salt lick.


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## XooMG (Apr 21, 2014)

The Anti-Chrysler said:


> The point I'm trying to make (politely) is that if I were spending $370 for a gyuto (Takeda 270mm gyuto for example), I darn well shouldn't have to fix a thing. For nearly $400, I expect a turn-key ready to go knife.


I agree. If I want a fixer-upper that I have to repair the geometry on, there are some very cheap options with excellent heat treat. When hundreds of dollars are involved, the maker should have done that for me, and their production inefficiency is a poor excuse.


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## apicius9 (Apr 21, 2014)

Lots of apples and oranges here, IMHO. As far as I understood it, Dave was asking about pointing out systematic issues (I am not even using the word 'flaws' here) in specific knives or lines of knives, or changes in character that deviated from previous experiences which he noticed and which raised concern for him. I do not see how this is the same as criticizing a maker - on or off the fora - or a vendor in general. There is a fine, but easily visible line between criticizing a person/business or a specific product. I think these lines have occasionally been blurred in the past which makes many of us moan in agony and crave for stiff drinks when we think back... 

This is also very different from what I - and obviously many others also - would call a review. A review IMHO includes the experience of using the knife over enough time to form a solid opinion about it; this may include the sharpening experience, but normally goes way beyond this. When Dave does a review like that (not that I actually remember whether he ever did one...), he would be just another clumsy user like most of us (ok, I wll speak about myself  We are a very diverse bunch with varying experience, and while I generally trust whatever is written up here as the persons honest opinion, I would encourage everyone to not totally neglect their own common sense. But many here are specialists -or nerds - with very specific interests or experiences. So, I would value an enthusiastic home user's comments on edge holding highly because that reflects also my situation and gives me good guidance, just as I would value Dave's and other's comments on sharpening a certain knive highly because I have no clue and appreciate the guidance. 

So, my short conclusion: Dave should be able to say "I recently had an unusually high number of knife x coming in with the same issues which I consider a flaw and which I want you to be aware of when you decide on spending your hard-earned money"; we all should be able to say: "I have now used knife xxx for some time and here are my subjective impressions drom this - do with that whatever you like"; and we all, hopefully, refrain from saying "Vendor/maker xxx sold me this crappy knifes, he is a jerk." This last one also implies that, if anyone has serious issues with any kind of product they buy, the dirst address should always be a converstation with the maker/vendor and not blowing steam here. 

Ok, a lot of preaching, but it IS Easter Sunday... 

Stefan


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## XooMG (Apr 21, 2014)

jared08 said:


> I think part of the conflict here Is the idea that ANY of the 90+ brands from cktg are discredited or not even given a chance, bc of who sells them. There is always a recommendation to get something from a vendor on here, which admittedly, most of them haven't even been handled before. You can't tell me you have tried every knife and none are better than something from Jon or maxim, probably at a better price.
> There was conflict on a different forum in the past for you providing negative feedback about another vendors product, so you are gunshy about it now. That is a lack a credibility when it comes to holding a standard across the board.
> 
> Cktg only allows a positive post in their forum or review on a knife. It seems that is happening here with the vendors products. Just bc I good guy sells it doesn't mean it can't be a bad Apple.


I think it's a shame. I cannot get products from JKI or Tosho for a reasonable price because of the insane shipping costs. I can get some things from JNS but communication is horribly inconsistent and descriptions are sometimes wrong enough to make me hesitate or regret. One of my best knives was sold by a Japanese vendor but is carried by CKTG and I would have considered ordering it from them if the Japanese option didn't work out. It doesn't even really get mentioned here, though it was a pretty big hit on the CKTG forum. Surely there are problems, but sometimes the enemies of this forum get stuff right.


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## Ruso (Apr 21, 2014)

As long as the opinion is honest and not bias in any way (very hard sometimes) it should reflect positive and negative. Otherwise it will be impossible to make an educated choice, and many people just don't have the funds to try the near countless number of knives, unfortunately.

So yes, keep it coming Dave, bad or good!


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## Canadian (Apr 26, 2014)

The issue is that often what one perceives as being a "flaw" another sees as suitable for their philosophy of use. I think there are ways to point out aspects of the knife that might not be suitable for some uses without claiming them to be an "issue." There are glaring exceptions of course, but just because a knife is thicker behind the edge does not mean it is flawed. It may not be what most members here want in an everyday knife, but they have their applications. 

Every knife review is biased, but the difference between a good review and the majority of reviews on the internet are that the good reviews are balanced, thorough, inclusive of a wide audience and often possess thoughtfulness when considering the knives drawbacks with respect to the author's application. 

Lastly, I think certain people should be off limits. I've seen personal attacks on one person's name, their products and their store. I have no interest in the person or their store, but there is no bigger turn off than watching grown men act like 13 year old teenage girls.


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## Namaxy (Apr 26, 2014)

I don't think anyone is against honest discourse. Unfortunately, only a select few here occupy the bully pulpit. The result can be groupthink. Takeda is a perfect example. If I could paraphrase your thread, I think you intended to point out that something changed with the production process/grind/QA/QC, and to be aware. You didn't say 'All Takedas suck'. Yet, while a very small subset here understand that, the vast majority now associate all Takeda knives with your comments. I experienced this first hand trying to sell one a couple months ago. Though mine had no issue, I must have received 20 PM's to the effect of 'Dave said Takedas have issues that will cost $150 to fix, will you take $100 for it?' Whether intended or not, you changed the market value of a brand.


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## GeneH (Apr 27, 2014)

1. YES "Do you like to be alerted to problems ..."

2. NO "Would it better if I kept my mouth shut about such issues? "

3.a. NOT RELIVENT Perhaps the truth shouldn't be spoken by someone who could be listed as a competitor?

3.b. NO. We need experienced professionals judgements too. "Maybe it's best left to the consumers to find out (or not) what they've purchased and do the reporting instead?"

4. HEAVENS NO. "Do you only want positive reports/reviews? "

5. YES "Is there room for negative reviews in this community? "

6. NOT BE AS ... UNBIASED "If you were in my shoes, seeing so many knives, what would you do?"


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## panda (Apr 27, 2014)

it's not daves fault that the market is full of ignorance, but i'm pretty sure he knew the effect his voicing would have on the market. it's a double edged sword.


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## ChiliPepper (Apr 27, 2014)

Vendor or not, competitor or not, I believe it's in the ethic of a forum that everyone's entitled to his/her opinions - as long as they are
1. documented/explained
2. polite and respectful of netiquette
It will then be each members job to evaluate such opinions based on a variety of sources, including the poster's background. We're all adults after all, right?
Personally, keep'em coming Dave!


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