# Any experience with ceramic stones for sharpening?



## mark76 (Sep 22, 2015)

In sharpening discussions I never see anyone mention a ceramic stone. Yet I've got good experience with the Wicked Edge ceramic stones. They do not require any soaking (not even any water, although some water is beneficial to keeping them from clogging). They don't dish at all and last very long. The feel is less than from a waterstone, but I like them.

Is there anyone who uses one or more ceramic stones for free-hand sharpening? Like the Naniwa Hayabusa. I'm interested in your experiences!


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## Zwiefel (Sep 22, 2015)

Perhaps I've misunderstood....I thought pretty much all of the synthetic stones we talk about here are considered ceramic?


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## mark76 (Sep 22, 2015)

No, I don't think so. Waterstones come in two types: natural stones and synthetic (man-made) stones. The synthetic, like the man-made stones require water. Sometimes a lot (soaking), sometimes much less (splash-and-go). 

Waterstones contain a binding agent that keeps the abrasive particles in places. Ceramic stones are very hard and don't get their abrasive power from individual abrasive particles (at least not anymore when the have been produces) in a binding agent, but rather from a texture on this very hard, ceramic, material.

I wrote a blog post on it if you're interested further: https://moleculepolishing.wordpress...-spyderco-and-the-wicked-edge-ceramic-stones/

That said, I'm particularly interested in practical experiences people have with ceramic stones  .


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## RefGent (Sep 22, 2015)

I assume you mean the hard kiln ceramics, like the Spyderco Sharpmaker rods, ceramic honing rods, and the corresponding Spyderco Ceramic Benchstones. These tend to be various grits of synthetic sapphire and are different from many 'ceramic' water stones which use an aluminum oxide abrasive in some sort of bonding agent like resin.

I find them to be fairly aggressive, but not so much as diamond is. My issue with them, especially the Spyderco stones, is the particles tend to have a rounded quality to them. This gives them a polishing/burnishing action coupled with a very hard bond that does leave a very nice finish, but also makes them inferior to most waterstones and oil stones for deburring. It is much more apparent on certain steels than others, but there none the less. 

That being said, they dish very very slowly and like I said, work very quickly. If they don't come flat, get ready for hours of work though.


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## El Pescador (Sep 22, 2015)

Pretty much what you are using when you strop w/ CRO2 or diamond.


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## mark76 (Sep 22, 2015)

Correct, RefGent. I mean sintered ceramic stones, like the Spyderco Sharpmaker stones and ceramic rods. Not ceramic waterstones, with ceramic particles (like aluminium oxide) in a bonding agent. In this sense you're right Zwiefel, many waterstones are ceramic stones, but the reverse is not true.

The Naniwa Hayabusa is an example of the type of stone I mean. 

Due to the fact that there's no bonding agent the feel (in my experience) is quite different from a waterstone. But the stones are very very hard and will live much longer than you and I.


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## gic (Sep 22, 2015)

Aren't some of the sigma power stones ceramic stones in this sense?


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## RefGent (Sep 22, 2015)

I was at Lee Valley a few weeks ago looking at the Sigma's. They didn't seem like ceramics to me, but I couldn't know for sure just feeling them with my finger. According to the Lee Valley site, they are sintered, but do release particles and wear quickly, which is unlike the other ceramics being discussed here.


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## Bolek (Sep 23, 2015)

My experience with Spyderco Bench stones :
1.	There is no rough grit
2.	The 302 series box walls are too high. I put a rubber mate on the bottom of each box. Boxes can be stacked to reach a comfortable position.
3.	Water allows the suspension of the metal slurry for slower clogging. Can be cleaned with soap or a pencil eraser.
4.	302M medium grit about 1000 equivalent. Supposed to dish very slowly. After 1 year I cant see any dish. Feedback low. Moderate speed.
5.	302 F fine grit about 2000 equivalent. Supposed to almost not dish. After 1 year I cant see any dish. Feedback low.
6.	302 UF very fine grit about 4000 equivalent. Supposed to almost not dish. After 1 year I cant see any dish. Feedback very low.
7.	306UF same as 302 UF but larger and less thick. No box but a pouch.
8.	No actual very fin grit.
9. What I like : stay flat, no dish no wear. Gives good almost refined edge.
10.	What I do not like : feedback


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## JBroida (Sep 23, 2015)

ceramic is just another type of binding agent in stones... it happens to be one where the binding agent also acts as an abrasive though... there quite a few of them out there...

bester 1000, 1200, 2000, gesshin 400, 2000, 4000, 6000s, 8000, a number of the sigma power stones, etc.


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## berko (Sep 23, 2015)

according to stu they are all ceramics 

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404


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## mark76 (Sep 23, 2015)

JBroida said:


> ceramic is just another type of binding agent in stones... it happens to be one where the binding agent also acts as an abrasive though... there quite a few of them out there...
> 
> bester 1000, 1200, 2000, gesshin 400, 2000, 4000, 6000s, 8000, a number of the sigma power stones, etc.



That's interesting, Jon. I've seen these stones being called "ceramic", but never knew why. Do you know what ceramic is the binding agent? What makes them act like "normal" waterstones (since they require water and do dish, but also feel like normal waterstones)? And what makes them different from sintered ceramic stones (which do not require any water and don't dish and feel very hard)?


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## JBroida (Sep 23, 2015)

there are many different things used... depends on the maker.... many are also sintered ceramic stones, and not all sintered stones are splash and go


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## rick_english (Sep 23, 2015)

Here's a more detailed explanation from Pam (yuzuha) from another forum a while back:

Arkansas stones are the silica shells of Devonian diatoms that settled to the sea bottom, got buried and uplifted and hydrothermally cemented together (silica is slightly soluble in alkaline water and the silica can precipitate out as chert cementing the undisolved shells together in a manner similar to the way quartzite is formed). The black ones are full of manganese dioxide. Japanese siltstones are made of volcanic mud that is low in mica (most US deposits are full of mica and form more platey schists, often with garnet or starolite). The mud gets burried and pressed under millions of tons of pressure and undergoes low grade metamorphism as it is heated to the softening point but below the melting point.

CLay stones are made just like flower pots, clay and abrasive are mixed to a putty-like mass, slapped into molds and fired in a kiln like roofing tiles. A variation on this would be to use porceline clay and fire at a higher temperature to make a white or light colored ceramic type of stone that has the feel of an unglazed ceramic insulator like those used in some mercury vapor lamps.

Magnesia stones are abrasives mixed with a magnesia based cement and water, poured into molds and allowed to harden under low heat (a bit like making concrete or plaster of paris bricks).

Shapton pros are abrasives mixed with a plastic resin a bit like epoxy, but a number of things are used in various resin stones, like ABS plastic, phenol formaldehyde, acrylics, polyvinlidene chloride, shellac and even synthetic rubber (Cratex wheels) These vary in hardness, density, how hygroscopic the resin is, and curing method. Many are pressed into molds at varying pressures to control porosity and baked at low temperatures to cure the binder.

Sintered stones (Naniwa golden lobster, the aluminum oxide or silicon carbide boat stone you get at the hardware store, common grindstones or even pure ruby machinist's stones) are just raw abrasives, and maybe some zirconia or bauxite depending on the type of stone. They are pressed into molds at varying pressures and fired at such high temperatures that the particles begin to melt at the edges and stick together... controlling the pressure, temperature and time controls how dense and how friable the resulting stones are. These contain no binder other than the abrasives themselves (zirconia is an abrasive itself and is added to aluminum oxide to make grindstones perform better under high heat and heavy pressures).


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## mark76 (Sep 24, 2015)

Thanks Rick! That's interesting!


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## natto (Sep 30, 2015)

There is a thread about a Fantoni Hide Fixed made of CPM S30V which refused to take a edge in German messerforum.net. As the author is an experienced Sharpener, many of us were wondering. 

This thread went on until he tried spyderco bench stones. Only with them he was able to put a proper edge on that knife, and they worked with good progress. Funny story. Some owners of pm might be interested.


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## msum (Nov 26, 2019)

rick_english said:


> Here's a more detailed explanation from Pam (yuzuha) from another forum a while back:
> 
> Arkansas stones are the silica shells of Devonian diatoms that settled to the sea bottom, got buried and uplifted and hydrothermally cemented together (silica is slightly soluble in alkaline water and the silica can precipitate out as chert cementing the undisolved shells together in a manner similar to the way quartzite is formed). The black ones are full of manganese dioxide. Japanese siltstones are made of volcanic mud that is low in mica (most US deposits are full of mica and form more platey schists, often with garnet or starolite). The mud gets burried and pressed under millions of tons of pressure and undergoes low grade metamorphism as it is heated to the softening point but below the melting point.
> 
> ...



Sorry about the zombie thread.

Am trying to work out what kinds of dry temperatures whetstones might be able to handle.

Does anyone know what low temperatures are (as referred to in the post quoted above)?


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