# T-F knives



## jacko9 (Feb 7, 2020)

Can anybody give me a quick explanation between T-F's offerings; Nashiji, Maboroshi and Denka? There is no explanation on his web site to differentiate between these three types. I purchased two Nashiji knives from him a Gyuto and a Petty and I like them a lot even though the Gyuto is pretty heavy. What makes the others types different?


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## wind88 (Feb 7, 2020)

Nashiji uses prelam white #1 bar stock

Maboroshi is forged lam white #1 

Denka is forged lam agaomi super with ku finish as opposed to Maboroshi.


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## jacko9 (Feb 7, 2020)

wind88 said:


> Nashiji uses prelam white #1 bar stock
> 
> Maboroshi is forged lam white #1
> 
> Denka is forged lam agaomi super with ku finish as opposed to Maboroshi.



Thank you I might be interested in a Denka at some point in time. I like my Nashiji and the edge that I'm able to get but, i would like to try some of his other knives.


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## M1k3 (Feb 7, 2020)

wind88 said:


> Nashiji uses prelam white #1 bar stock
> 
> Maboroshi is forged lam white #1
> 
> Denka is forged lam agaomi super with ku finish as opposed to Maboroshi.



Maboroshi is also White #1a (the higher side of the carbon content spread).


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## toddnmd (Feb 7, 2020)

All three lines are stainless clad. 
Maboroshi is harder (~64-65 HRC) than Nashiji (61-63), Denka is hardest at 65-66. Taking those numbers from knifewear.


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## bahamaroot (Feb 7, 2020)

toddnmd said:


> All three lines are stainless clad.
> Maboroshi is harder (~64-65 HRC) than *Nashiji (61-63)*, Denka is hardest at 65-66. Taking those numbers from knifewear.


I have seen the Nashiji listed anywhere from 60-61 to 65-66. Carbon Knife Co list them as 64-65. Is it possible that these are made at different HRCs for different distributors/retailers? If not who's to say what they really are? Just from my reading about them over many years I have a tendency to believe they are on the harder side in at least the 63-64 range.


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## jacko9 (Feb 7, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> I have seen the Nashiji listed anywhere from 60-61 to 65-66. Carbon Knife Co list them as 64-65. Is it possible that these are made at different HRCs for different distributors/retailers? If not who's to say what they really are? Just from my reading about them over many years I have a tendency to believe they are on the harder side in at least the 63-64 range.



I bought both of my Nashiji knives directly from T-F and I have to believe that they are on the big side of hardness since they both had micro chipping on the leading edge before I sharpened them. They both are great now with no further micro chipping.


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## bahamaroot (Feb 7, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> I bought both of my Nashiji knives directly from T-F and I have to believe that they are on the big side of hardness since they both had micro chipping on the leading edge before I sharpened them. They both are great now with no further micro chipping.


I bought 3 Nashijis direct back in 2014 and most sites had them listed as 64-65 back then. I tend to think that is a very close representation of them.


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## panda (Feb 8, 2020)

think of it as ghetto, regular, and premium


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## jacko9 (Feb 8, 2020)

panda said:


> think of it as ghetto, regular, and premium



Interesting observation ;-)


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 8, 2020)

panda said:


> think of it as ghetto, regular, and premium


Or sharp, sharper and stupid sharp.

In my experience edge retention differences are obvious: Nashiji<Mab<Denka


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## jacko9 (Feb 8, 2020)

I have two Nashiji's and while they get screaming sharp, they do lose it pretty quickly. I strop my petty before every use to keep it cutting but my 240 Gyuto sits on the shelf gathering dust.


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## MarkC (Feb 8, 2020)

Dream scenario for me would be for Jon to carry a line of these TF-Ginga and do the QA and initial sharpening on them.


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## jacko9 (Feb 8, 2020)

MarkC said:


> Dream scenario for me would be for Jon to carry a line of these TF-Ginga and do the QA and initial sharpening on them.



T-F Ginga? Is that a JKI brand?


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## refcast (Feb 8, 2020)

wut, like tf steel and ginga quality control and grind?


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## wind88 (Feb 8, 2020)

Ginga is a line from Ashi. Gesshin is Jon’s house brand. So in the ideal world, we would get Gesshin TF.


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 8, 2020)

Nothing wrong with TF grind IMO. Sure the earlier examples were hit or miss but for more recent production TF have addressed the inconsistencies. 

And Jon carried TF many years ago and dropped them, so I don't think he'll be going down that path again.


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## TSF415 (Feb 8, 2020)

There is an issue with tf grinds and finishes. There are plenty of senior members here who have not experienced them and they have multiple tf knives. Contact them and ask how they acquired them because plenty of other members have had serious issues.


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## jacko9 (Feb 8, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Nothing wrong with TF grind IMO. Sure the earlier examples were hit or miss but for more recent production TF have addressed the inconsistencies.
> 
> And Jon carried TF many years ago and dropped them, so I don't think he'll be going down that path again.



CKTG carried T-F and dropped him as well complaining about inconsistencies in quality.


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## jacko9 (Feb 8, 2020)

TSF415 said:


> There is an issue with tf grinds and finishes. There are plenty of senior members here who have not experienced them and they have multiple tf knives. Contact them and ask how they acquired them because plenty of other members have had serious issues.



I noticed that one of the most frequently cited complaints was micro-chipping at the edge. My 240 Gyuto had that but, after sharpening one time that issue went away.


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## labor of love (Feb 8, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> I noticed that one of the most frequently cited complaints was micro-chipping at the edge. My 240 Gyuto had that but, after sharpening one time that issue went away.


Nah, microchipping is the least of the worries.


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## M1k3 (Feb 8, 2020)

Gesshin Denka please!



jacko9 said:


> CKTG carried T-F and dropped him as well complaining about inconsistencies in quality.



Which is funny because I remember watching one of their "Quick Look" videos before and they showed a knife with an overgrind, I think a Moritaka. It could of been another knife though...


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## Robert Lavacca (Feb 8, 2020)

I feel like even today it’s still a gamble ordering direct from him. As much as I love the look and heat treat of his knives, I’m still nervous ordering direct from him even with pictures. And personally I feel for that price range of the mab and denka you should not have to have those worries ordering direct from him. Just my opinion.


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 8, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> I noticed that one of the most frequently cited complaints was micro-chipping at the edge. My 240 Gyuto had that but, after sharpening one time that issue went away.


Micro chipping is only an issue with the factory edge. I don't think they use a fine enough grit stone to finish the edge making it unstable. A few mins on an appropriate stone and the issue goes away


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 8, 2020)

Well if someone has received a dodgy grind TF direct in the last 6 months, please post here.


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## M1k3 (Feb 8, 2020)

@adam92


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## Henry (Feb 8, 2020)

I have 5 denkas, I have used at least one of them almost everyday for the past 4 years (home use). Never had a micro chip or an issue with the grind. Never had an issue with the blade itself. The finish on the other hand, especially on the handle, I have had some minor issues with a couple of them. In my opinion, his blades are some of the finest I have ever used. My 210 Gyuto is my favourite knife and I could have traded with the same size Shigafusa Kitaeji Gyuto unused, but refused.


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 8, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> @adam92


If I remember correctly that wasn't a direct purchase. I'm sure there are plenty of shonky TF's sitting of resellers shelves


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 8, 2020)

Henry said:


> I have 5 denkas, I have used at least one of them almost everyday for the past 4 years (home use). Never had a micro chip or an issue with the grind. Never had an issue with the blade itself. The finish on the other hand, especially on the handle, I have had some minor issues with a couple of them. In my opinion, his blades are some of the finest I have ever used. My 210 Gyuto is my favourite knife and I could have traded with the same size Shigafusa Kitaeji Gyuto unused, but refused.


Wouldn't trade my 210 Denka either.


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## jacko9 (Feb 8, 2020)

Henry said:


> I have 5 denkas, I have used at least one of them almost everyday for the past 4 years (home use). Never had a micro chip or an issue with the grind. Never had an issue with the blade itself. The finish on the other hand, especially on the handle, I have had some minor issues with a couple of them. In my opinion, his blades are some of the finest I have ever used. My 210 Gyuto is my favourite knife and I could have traded with the same size Shigafusa Kitaeji Gyuto unused, but refused.



I want to try the Denka's and when I purchased my Nashiji's he offered the Ebony and Horn upgrade so I got those handles on both of my T-F kni


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## Garm (Feb 8, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Or sharp, sharper and stupid sharp.
> 
> In my experience edge retention differences are obvious: Nashiji<Mab<Denka


How obvious would you guestimate? Personally, I only own "ghetto style" gyuto and petty, so I know those best, but I have on occasion sharpened Mabs I've gifted. I don't think I possess the sensitivity to feel a difference on the stones, and only occasionally I get to use them.

If you make a scale where Denka is at the top with a score of 10 0r 100 or wherever you set peak value, where would you place Mab and Nashiji comparatively, given similar knife models?


labor of love said:


> Nah, microchipping is the least of the worries.


While I agree with you personally(a good sharpening or two got rid of it if there was an issue), Mark at ToGo did cite this as THE major reason on his forum when he stopped carrying these. Lots of newcomers to jknives returned them for this reason, and apparently it became quite the hassle to deal with, no matter how many times it was mentioned as a caveat or suggested how to easily remedy the situation.


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## Henry (Feb 8, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> I want to try the Denka's and when I purchased my Nashiji's he offered the Ebony and Horn upgrade so I got those handles on both of my T-F kni



Nice...I would like to get some of my Denkas re-handled one day. I actually like the feel of the handles it came with, just the finish on some of them are not so good. I would even respectfully say it was bad. But, I didn't buy them for the handles.


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## jacko9 (Feb 8, 2020)

Henry said:


> Nice...I would like to get some of my Denkas re-handled one day. I actually like the feel of the handles it came with, just the finish on some of them are not so good. I would even respectfully say it was bad.



Do the Denka's only come with Western handles? T-F redid his web site and I don't see the handle options anymore?


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## panda (Feb 8, 2020)

I actually have on order a custom denka, let the anticipation commence. I'll reveal the details of the customizations once it arrives.


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## M1k3 (Feb 8, 2020)

panda said:


> I actually have on order a custom denka, let the anticipation commence. I'll reveal the details of the customizations once it arrives.



Straight blade with no overgrind and nice handle?


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## lemeneid (Feb 8, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> @adam92


Yeah, I’m more inclined to see this as a user problem than a knife problem, after considering what other “problems” he’s been posting lately.


Corradobrit1 said:


> Micro chipping is only an issue with the factory edge. I don't think they use a fine enough grit stone to finish the edge making it unstable. A few mins on an appropriate stone and the issue goes away


Dude, I know you’re a TF fanboy and all but clearly you don’t know how they sharpen their knives.


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## lemeneid (Feb 8, 2020)

Garm said:


> How obvious would you guestimate? Personally, I only own "ghetto style" gyuto and petty, so I know those best, but I have on occasion sharpened Mabs I've gifted. I don't think I possess the sensitivity to feel a difference on the stones, and only occasionally I get to use them.
> 
> If you make a scale where Denka is at the top with a score of 10 0r 100 or wherever you set peak value, where would you place Mab and Nashiji comparatively, given similar knife


All things considered equal, eg grind, f&f. The Denka is on another level compared to the Maboroshi. The edge retention, cutting ability and sharpness is in a league of its own. I’ve owned identical 240 Mab and Denkas so I can say this for sure.




Henry said:


> Nice...I would like to get some of my Denkas re-handled one day. I actually like the feel of the handles it came with, just the finish on some of them are not so good. I would even respectfully say it was bad. But, I didn't buy them for the handles.


Please don’t, their ebony handles are trash.




jacko9 said:


> Do the Denka's only come with Western handles? T-F redid his web site and I don't see the handle options anymore?


You have to specify handle type in your emails to them.


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## jacko9 (Feb 8, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> All things considered equal, eg grind, f&f. The Denka is on another level compared to the Maboroshi. The edge retention, cutting ability and sharpness is in a league of its own. I’ve owned identical 240 Mab and Denkas so I can say this for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've had the T-F Ebony and Horn handles on two knives for over three years now and they are great - why do you say they are trash? Mine are excellent and I build hardwood furniture over the past 35 years so I have a little bit of familiarity with wood.


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## lemeneid (Feb 8, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> I've had the T-F Ebony and Horn handles on two knives for over three years now and they are great - why do you say they are trash? Mine are excellent and I build hardwood furniture over the past 35 years so I have a little bit of familiarity with wood.


Maybe trash is too harsh. The ones I’ve seen in store didn’t have very nice f&f if you ask me. The edges weren’t sanded as nicely as I would have wanted. I don’t do any wood working or modify my handles in any way, so unlike blades, I need them to be as perfect as possible.

As a benchmark, I think James has some really beautiful ebony handles on his knives.


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## TSF415 (Feb 8, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Yeah, I’m more inclined to see this as a user problem than a knife problem, after considering what other “problems” he’s been posting lately.
> 
> Dude, I know you’re a TF fanboy and all but clearly you don’t know how they sharpen their knives.


Because someone’s inexperienced about knives doesn’t mean he wasn’t sent a crap knife.


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## thebradleycrew (Feb 8, 2020)

I just ordered and received a 240mm x 56mm Denka direct from TF (thanks @lemeneid for the tips). Grind looks great. Photos below. Spine/choil were supposed to be rounded but it looks like they took a rough file to them and stopped there. Needless to say, I'm going to be doing some sanding. Otherwise, no complaints. Also, note that I selected a Wa handle.


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## Huntdad (Feb 8, 2020)

Just got a direct order 240 Denka Gyuto-making a new wa handle for it. Blade is great. Will buy more.


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## TSF415 (Feb 8, 2020)

thebradleycrew said:


> I just ordered and received a 240mm x 56mm Denka direct from TF (thanks @lemeneid for the tips). Grind looks great. Photos below. Spine/choil were supposed to be rounded but it looks like they took a rough file to them and stopped there. Needless to say, I'm going to be doing some sanding. Otherwise, no complaints. Also, note that I selected a Wa handle.
> View attachment 70984
> View attachment 70985
> View attachment 70986
> View attachment 70987


That’s awesome! I find that to be a very sexy knife. Can you share the tips to getting what you want by ordering direct?


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## thebradleycrew (Feb 8, 2020)

Huntdad said:


> Just got a direct order 240 Denka Gyuto-making a new wa handle for it. Blade is great. Will buy more.


What is the height on yours at the heel?


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## thebradleycrew (Feb 8, 2020)

TSF415 said:


> That’s awesome! I find that to be a very sexy knife. Can you share the tips to getting what you want by ordering direct?


Sure can. Talk to @lemeneid! That's my tip. Kidding. He was helpful though. I knew I wanted a taller heel (55mm+) and not all Denkas are taller. I asked them to select the tallest few and let me know the heights. Then I asked for photos. They sent photos. That's key - at least ask for them as you go. They will provide and you can gauge grind pretty well.


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## TSF415 (Feb 8, 2020)

thebradleycrew said:


> Sure can. Talk to @lemeneid! That's my tip. Kidding. He was helpful though. I knew I wanted a taller heel (55mm+) and not all Denkas are taller. I asked them to select the tallest few and let me know the heights. Then I asked for photos. They sent photos. That's key - at least ask for them as you go. They will provide and you can gauge grind pretty well.


Haha. Sounds good. I’ll be sending pics I receive to you and @lemeneid to help me choose when the time comes.


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## thebradleycrew (Feb 8, 2020)

TSF415 said:


> Haha. Sounds good. I’ll be sending pics I receive to you and @lemeneid to help me choose when the time comes.


Please do - happy to help in whatever way I can.


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## adam92 (Feb 9, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> @adam92


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## Garm (Feb 9, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> All things considered equal, eg grind, f&f. The Denka is on another level compared to the Maboroshi. The edge retention, cutting ability and sharpness is in a league of its own. I’ve owned identical 240 Mab and Denkas so I can say this for sure.




Thanks, but I was mainly wondering about how obvious the difference was between the two white steel varieties when it came to edge retention. I mentioned the Denka as a reference point, a top point of the scale when comparing the three lines.


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## adam92 (Feb 9, 2020)

Brought in December & return trash TF in JAN, after 1st sharpening all problem shown. & Bad customer service .


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## Kristoffer (Feb 9, 2020)

thebradleycrew said:


> Sure can. Talk to @lemeneid! That's my tip. Kidding. He was helpful though. I knew I wanted a taller heel (55mm+) and not all Denkas are taller. I asked them to select the tallest few and let me know the heights. Then I asked for photos. They sent photos. That's key - at least ask for them as you go. They will provide and you can gauge grind pretty well.



I hope you don’t mind my asking, did you have an email exchange first and then place the order, or vice versa?


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## lemeneid (Feb 9, 2020)

Garm said:


> Thanks, but I was mainly wondering about how obvious the difference was between the two white steel varieties when it came to edge retention. I mentioned the Denka as a reference point, a top point of the scale when comparing the three lines.


Can't tell you much about nashiji as I don't own one, but from whats been said, the maboroshi does ever so slightly better. IMO if you ask me though, I don't think it should matter otherwise in the overall performance. Getting white steel for edge retention is like getting getting a Ferrari for its fuel economy.


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## labor of love (Feb 9, 2020)

Kristoffer said:


> I hope you don’t mind my asking, did you have an email exchange first and then place the order, or vice versa?


I asked a couple of simple questions and never heard back, but other guys usually get a response within a week.


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## panda (Feb 9, 2020)

i got a response same day..


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## thebradleycrew (Feb 9, 2020)

Kristoffer said:


> I hope you don’t mind my asking, did you have an email exchange first and then place the order, or vice versa?


Lots of e-mail exchange first! I exchanged 8 total e-mails (4 each way) with photos before deciding. Then had more e-mail when the knife was complete.


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## Henry (Feb 9, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> All things considered equal, eg grind, f&f. The Denka is on another level compared to the Maboroshi. The edge retention, cutting ability and sharpness is in a league of its own. I’ve owned identical 240 Mab and Denkas so I can say this for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is the ebony handles I want to replace. They are exactly as you had described. But the blade however is splendid.


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## jacko9 (Feb 10, 2020)

adam92 said:


> Brought in December & return trash TF in JAN, after 1st sharpening all problem shown. & Bad customer service .



Did you get your money returned or a new blade?


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## adam92 (Feb 10, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> Did you get your money returned or a new blade?


Money return after i raise my complain through Paypal.


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## panda (Feb 10, 2020)

adam92 said:


> Money return after i raise my complain through Paypal.


what was your exact complaint?


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## Matus (Feb 10, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Well if someone has received a dodgy grind TF direct in the last 6 months, please post here.



@Foltest would you be so kind to re-post that spoon of yours...


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## Foltest (Feb 10, 2020)

Matus said:


> @Foltest would you be so kind to re-post that spoon of yours...


OH hell yes, here we go, tf nashiji petty 150mm, shipped directly from the allmighty tf himself.













After contact with stones, hell was revealed


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## ma_sha1 (Feb 10, 2020)

That looks pretty bad, perhaps by a new Apprentice?

However, you can get a good idea from photos up front during the ordering process. I saw one with bad grind but I chose another one with good grind to purchase.


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## milkbaby (Feb 10, 2020)

Wabi sabi, brocephus


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## pjotr (Feb 10, 2020)




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## inferno (Feb 10, 2020)

if you only choose the ones with the good grinds then you get no practice on the stones!!


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## inferno (Feb 10, 2020)

Foltest said:


> OH hell yes, here we go, tf nashiji petty 150mm, shipped directly from the allmighty tf himself.
> 
> After contact with stones, hell was revealealed



it will buff right out


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## Kristoffer (Feb 10, 2020)

thebradleycrew said:


> Lots of e-mail exchange first! I exchanged 8 total e-mails (4 each way) with photos before deciding. Then had more e-mail when the knife was complete.



Awesome, thanks!

Email sent! Let’s see how it goes


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## wind88 (Feb 10, 2020)

Foltest said:


> OH hell yes, here we go, tf nashiji petty 150mm, shipped directly from the allmighty tf himself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’m interested to see how much better other more consistent knives are when lay flat on the stone.


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## swarth (Feb 10, 2020)

As long as there aren't any holes, you will be fine. The road will flatten over time. BTW...hell was clearly visible from the start.


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## inferno (Feb 10, 2020)

i can tell you one thing wind88 and that is: i spent about 3-5 minutes or so on a 1k shapton pro with my 240 hinoura white/iron and after that it was flat. best workmanship i have ever encountered. other brands were like 100-200% worse than this in time. but this TF above would be on the order of hours most likely to fix.


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## panda (Feb 10, 2020)

is there anything actually wrong with the cheapo petty aside from looking unfinished and wavy line? it's dirt cheap, i hardly think you can expect good finish on a boutique knife. then again why is TF even offering these ghetto units..

mutsumi hinoura bevels were also flattest i have encountered, but shouldnt wide bevel have a concave grind? i dont like wide bev regardless, lol.


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## valgard (Feb 10, 2020)

wind88 said:


> I’m interested to see how much better other more consistent knives are when lay flat on the stone.


A heck of a lot better than that [emoji23]


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## inferno (Feb 10, 2020)

panda said:


> concave grind?



why? they get concave if they finish them on the big wheels, flat if they finish on one of these watercooled spinning stone machines.


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2020)

How much are those TF pettys after shipping? 
Next time just grab a Tanaka


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## ashy2classy (Feb 10, 2020)

OT: This is my favorite petty. It's OOS, but damn it does everything so well.

https://www.aframestokyo.com/tesshu-petty-knife-150mm-white-ii-steel--sus410-nashiji-150410.html


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2020)

The small size of a petty makes it difficult and unenjoyable for me to thin. But at the same time I don’t like the idea of dropping a lot of bank on a knife I’m going to be really rough with. 
Petty shopping is the hardest of all jknive shopping for this reason.


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## Matus (Feb 10, 2020)

There is no need to get upset at the face of reality. I don’t think that I have ever seen a Japanese hand made knife without low spots or some unevenness in grind, but TF is the king of low spots. We have just seen a prime example and it is not like it is the first one ever. 

From where I stand the world looks like the only way to get a low-spot-less Japanese style kitchen knife is to get it from one of the skilled custom western makers and pay the extra for a full on-the-stone finish if that’s what you desire.

I can function just fine with both options, though I tend to stay away from the extremes


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## jacko9 (Feb 10, 2020)

I have to say that my T-F 150 Nashiji Petty has been a great knife for the three years I've owned it with no defects that I can detect. The White #1 steel get's screaming sharp and retains the edge quite nicely. I also have a T-F 240mm Nashiji Gyuto and while I can't detect any flaws I find the knife to be heavy and I have since purchased a Kato and a few Kono Fujiyama's that I enjoy using more than the T-F it gets little use.


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2020)

I think it is important to share stories like this. Transparency is good. Tbh a lot people may not mind the blade road for the price.
It would bother me, so I don’t mess with the nashiji line.
Another day another TF debate.


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## panda (Feb 10, 2020)

heiji carbon petty is where it's at. i havent had a desire to replace it the entire time ive had it once i changed the grind on it to what i prefer (asymmetric convex)


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## panda (Feb 10, 2020)

labor of love said:


> I think it is important to share stories like this. Transparency is good. Tbh a lot people may not mind the blade road for the price.
> It would bother me, so I don’t mess with the nashiji line.
> Another day another TF debate.


reminds me of moritaka petty i had, i hated that thing and gifted it away.


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## labor of love (Feb 10, 2020)

Zakuri makes a great KU blue 1 petty. Dirt cheap w totally decent octagonal wa handle. Sure there’s a few waves under the finish but still nothing close to that TF tsunami.


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## inferno (Feb 10, 2020)

TF's should come with an included angle grinder to be honest. they are that good


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## M1k3 (Feb 10, 2020)

inferno said:


> TF's should come with an included angle grinder to be honest. they are that good



Step 1: Get drunk

Step 2: Take TF to angle grinder

Step 3: ????


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## inferno (Feb 10, 2020)

step 4: profit!!!


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## Garm (Feb 10, 2020)

inferno said:


> TF's should come with an included angle grinder to be honest. they are that good


You crack me up..


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## wind88 (Feb 10, 2020)

inferno said:


> i can tell you one thing wind88 and that is: i spent about 3-5 minutes or so on a 1k shapton pro with my 240 hinoura white/iron and after that it was flat. best workmanship i have ever encountered. other brands were like 100-200% worse than this in time. but this TF above would be on the order of hours most likely to fix.


Thanks. I really need to get my hand on a hinoura. Probably a suji.


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## panda (Feb 10, 2020)

hinoura steel feels like glass


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## esoo (Feb 10, 2020)

My TF petty after I tried playing with the bevel on some stones.






Looks like ****, but I don't see any issue with the core steel, and it cuts pretty freaking good. For ~$100USD direct when I got it, it was worth the risk. Not sure I'd spend more on one without being able to handle it.


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## Henry (Feb 10, 2020)

Henry said:


> It is the ebony handles I want to replace. They are exactly as you had described. But the blade however is splendid.



The ebony handle I am referring to is a Western handle. Did anyone every buy one with a Western handle? Not the fancy re-handles but one identical to the paka wood but just made of ebony wood?


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## adam92 (Feb 11, 2020)

panda said:


> what was your exact complaint?


Blade problem, they said can fix it for me but need me to pay shipping fees , refuse to pay it because less than a month new knife.
After i sending email to TF said request refund & return, they stopped reply my email, until i talk to Paypal .


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## Foltest (Feb 11, 2020)

panda said:


> is there anything actually wrong with the cheapo petty aside from looking unfinished and wavy line? it's dirt cheap, i hardly think you can expect good finish on a boutique knife. then again why is TF even offering these ghetto units..
> 
> mutsumi hinoura bevels were also flattest i have encountered, but shouldnt wide bevel have a concave grind? i dont like wide bev regardless, lol.



Well, handle not aligned properly (but it fits in the hand, so I dont care). After year of thinning and sharpening, left side of the blade is flat, on the right side there is one lowspot left (area between the tip and tsunami wave). The worst thing was actually the tf sharpening part, aside from the monstrous bevel the tip was pretty ****ed up and required some major reprofiling. So, yes, in my opinion, it is actually wrong when I buy new knife and I have to spend hours on shapton 120 to un**** things the maker did. I didnt try to resolve this with tf because I figured It would be easier to fix it myself.


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## ma_sha1 (Feb 11, 2020)

One thing I’d like to point out that my TF has a concave tip grind first 1/4 of the knife , transition to Convex grind for the rest of the knife, does anyone one else has this?

When Someone lay the bevel flat to grind, they may think the front had low spot & middle high spot. I believe it’s intentional to keep the tip thin, designed to help food separation when slide knife forward, like Kato does (varied degree of convex front to back) . My TF has the best food release when tested with Shig. Kasumi & Toyama.

I am not saying TF doesn’t have inconsistent grind issues, but I think the concave tip transition to convex middle maybe by design?


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 11, 2020)

Henry said:


> The ebony handle I am referring to is a Western handle. Did anyone every buy one with a Western handle? Not the fancy re-handles but one identical to the paka wood but just made of ebony wood?


Here's my TF Ebony handled Denka. Its not highly polished or lacquered so feels great in hand even when wet.


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## Henry (Feb 11, 2020)

Very nice. I have two denkas with ebony handles. FF not so great but does feel good in the hand. I might be able to sand it down one day.


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## Phip (Feb 11, 2020)

These TF threads are really good for me. I’ve had two Denkas now, got rid of one very quickly. The second one wasn’t particularly bad, three little low spots on one side, all pretty high up the primary bevel. But oh my, the scratches are deep. Three hours sanding and on the stones, and I still have work to do. But hey, it is a very nice cutter.


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## jacko9 (Feb 12, 2020)

Phip said:


> These TF threads are really good for me. I’ve had two Denkas now, got rid of one very quickly. The second one wasn’t particularly bad, three little low spots on one side, all pretty high up the primary bevel. But oh my, the scratches are deep. Three hours sanding and on the stones, and I still have work to do. But hey, it is a very nice cutter.



From what I can see on the T-F web site the Denkas are not entry level priced knives actually priced much higher than the Konosuke Fujiyama's so I'm not sure they are worth the price.


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## Phip (Feb 12, 2020)

Definitely not an entry level knife given the time and experience needed to tune these babies. For me, it's a hobby, and while I don't chase most of the unicorns popular around here there's been pretty consistent love for well-tuned TFs so I wanted to see what the buzz was all about. It's worth what we're willing to pay for the experience. I recently picked up a Kono FM, too, and I have to say the Denka is more interesting to use though the FM is more elegant.


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## jacko9 (Feb 12, 2020)

Phip said:


> Definitely not an entry level knife given the time and experience needed to tune these babies. For me, it's a hobby, and while I don't chase most of the unicorns popular around here there's been pretty consistent love for well-tuned TFs so I wanted to see what the buzz was all about. It's worth what we're willing to pay for the experience. I recently picked up a Kono FM, too, and I have to say the Denka is more interesting to use though the FM is more elegant.



Care to elaborate on the Denka being more interesting to use? I have two Kono Fuji's and a 240 T-F Nashiji (I realize not in the same class as the Denka) as they are two different weight class knives in my novice hands. I also use a a Kono HD2 Gyuto, and a Kato Workhorse so I'm interested in what sets the Denka apart from the others?


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## lemeneid (Feb 12, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> Care to elaborate on the Denka being more interesting to use? I have two Kono Fuji's and a 240 T-F Nashiji (I realize not in the same class as the Denka) as they are two different weight class knives in my novice hands. I also use a a Kono HD2 Gyuto, and a Kato Workhorse so I'm interested in what sets the Denka apart from the others?


Denka has a really unique cutting feel. Its hard to describe, but I think for those who have used high-end cutters like Wats, Fujis, Katos, etc and you picked up a Denka, suddenly there is that wow factor again. Like you never knew knives could cut like that. Thats how I would describe it.


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## CiderBear (Feb 12, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Denka has a really unique cutting feel. Its hard to describe, but I think for those who have used high-end cutters like Wats, Fujis, Katos, etc and you picked up a Denka, suddenly there is that wow factor again. Like you never knew knives could cut like that. Thats how I would describe it.



Does it feel like that with whatever jnat you use at the end?


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## Phip (Feb 12, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> Care to elaborate on the Denka being more interesting to use? I have two Kono Fuji's and a 240 T-F Nashiji (I realize not in the same class as the Denka) as they are two different weight class knives in my novice hands. I also use a a Kono HD2 Gyuto, and a Kato Workhorse so I'm interested in what sets the Denka apart from the others?



It's a midweight in hand, about 170 grams for my 210mm, but it cuts like a laser as it's as thin behind the edge as anything else I have. There's a certain decisive authority, pointability, and deftness I feel with it. All terribly subjective, I know, and apologize for lacking better words to describe it.



CiderBear said:


> Does it feel like that with whatever jnat you use at the end?


I've only been into the TF for a short while and done one sharpening using JKI 2000 and JNS 6000 synthetics to finish w/ a bonus 20 micron diamond spray strop. Was so tired after cleaning up the knife that I couldn't break out the natural stones.


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## lemeneid (Feb 12, 2020)

CiderBear said:


> Does it feel like that with whatever jnat you use at the end?


I finish my TFs on two different stones now, a super fine giant Aoto, and a narutaki asagi awasedo. The cut is actually more aggressive on the Aoto and more “fun” to use. The narutaki gives overkill sharpness, so it tends to “fall through” food better.


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 12, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Denka has a really unique cutting feel. Its hard to describe, but I think for those who have used high-end cutters like Wats, Fujis, Katos, etc and you picked up a Denka, suddenly there is that wow factor again. Like you never knew knives could cut like that. Thats how I would describe it.


Pretty much sums it up for me. The Kono FM w#1 on the other hand was underwhelming by comparison. Yes, it cut well but for want of a better word, lacked soul. The incredibly uncomfortable handle didn't help either.


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 12, 2020)

CiderBear said:


> Does it feel like that with whatever jnat you use at the end?


Any stone that leaves a refined toothy edge will bring out the best in that TF AS steel


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## milkbaby (Feb 12, 2020)

Why TF do all y'all complain about the uneven grind on TF knives? Look at this post from Kippington to see how irregular bevel is actually an aid to food release: https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...iction-and-the-grind.35641/page-9#post-669851


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 12, 2020)

milkbaby said:


> Why TF do all y'all complain about the uneven grind on TF knives? Look at this post from Kippington to see how irregular bevel is actually an aid to food release: https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...iction-and-the-grind.35641/page-9#post-669851


It all depends where the unevenness is located. If its high on the blade road its a non issue from a performance perspective unless you want a Kasumi finish. Bent blades are a deal breaker.


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## parbaked (Feb 12, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Bent blades are a deal breaker.


Do you think the knife you got from Morihei was straight when he gave it the "fine finish"?
I think Morihei would reject or fix a bent knife before sharpening and fine finishing it.

Likewise the knife that went to NZ looked like it was straight when TF sharpened it.
The owner didn't notice it was bent until he used for a month and tried to sharpen it.
He seems like the type who would have noticed if the bevels were wonky OOTB.
He then made it worse because he tried to sharpen it out...not really all TF's fault.

Maybe the knives are bending after they leave TF due to temperature changes e.g. freezing in Tokyo and summer in NZ or the time freezing in an airplane cargo hold.

Maybe TF san mai is not as stable as factory pre-laminate or maybe TF is not waiting long enough before doing the final sharpening.

The bent Morihei made me think that something is happening after final sharpening...


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## jacko9 (Feb 12, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Pretty much sums it up for me. The Kono FM w#1 on the other hand was underwhelming by comparison. Yes, it cut well but for want of a better word, lacked soul. The incredibly uncomfortable handle didn't help either.




I do have three Fuji's 2 each B#2's and one W#2 and a Kato Workhorse, a Wat. Pro B#2 Nakiri in addition to my T-F Nashiji. For comparison sake the grind and sharpening should be the same with both T-F knives regardless of the steel which relates to degree of sharpness and edge retention and all of the properties Larrin talks about. While I haven't try to compare my T-F Nashiji with my other knives should I expect my OOTB cutting to be the same with the Denka and the Nashiji? BTW I suspect that we are talking about qualitative quality terms and the actual cutting feel is in the eye of the beholder? If I keep this up I might be accused of being another "S_hit Stirrer"


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 12, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> While I haven't try to compare my T-F Nashiji with my other knives should I expect my OOTB cutting to be the same with the Denka and the Nashiji?


Maybe for the first few cuts but the w#1 in the Nashiji line will dull very quickly if sharpened to the same acute angle possible with the Denka. The AS will keep that cutting performance for MUCH longer.


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 12, 2020)

parbaked said:


> Do you think the knife you got from Morihei was straight when he gave it the "fine finish"?
> I think Morihei would rejected or fixed a bent knife before sharpening and fine finishing it.
> 
> Likewise the knife that went to NZ looked like it was straight when TF sharpened it.
> ...


Yes interesting thoughts. I highly doubt Morihei would polish and then release that blade as is. The issues were so obvious even to a novice like me and those guys have been in the knife sharpening, and blade polishing business for generations. I think you may well be right. The blade was probably bent at some point in its life post Morihei, either from careless handling or storage. The knife passed from Morihei through Hitohira and on to the Aussie dealer who sold it to me. Who really knows the history of a particular knife before we receive them.


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## panda (Feb 12, 2020)

milkbaby said:


> Why TF do all y'all complain about the uneven grind on TF knives? Look at this post from Kippington to see how irregular bevel is actually an aid to food release: https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...iction-and-the-grind.35641/page-9#post-669851


i see what you did there


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## TSF415 (Feb 12, 2020)

panda said:


> i see what you did there



We pay extra to custom makers for their s-grinds and TF gives us LMNOP-grinds for free.


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## bahamaroot (Feb 12, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Maybe for the first few cuts but the w#1 in the Nashiji line will dull very quickly if sharpened to the same acute angle possible with the Denka. The AS will keep that cutting performance for MUCH longer.


Of course the Denka will hold its edge longer, you're comparing White steel to AS. Any AS will hold its edge longer than a TF in White unless the AS has a very poor HT.


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## jacko9 (Feb 12, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> Of course the Denka will hold its edge longer, you're comparing White steel to AS. Any AS will hold its edge longer than a TF in White unless the AS has a very poor HT.



I never doubted that the Denka AS steel would hold an edge better than the W#1 but my real question is if the T-F Denka is worth more than double what a Konosuke Fujiyama B#2 is worth? I feel that the T-F Nashiji is value priced and at the time I purchased it it was about 1/4 the cost of the Denka so given that I have to touch up the W#1 often is worth it for a home cook relatively speaking. There are a lot of very nicely crafted knives on the market and when the cost starts to approach $1000 I need to consider it carefully. I appreciate all of the knowledge and input from you guys.


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## bahamaroot (Feb 12, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> I never doubted that the Denka AS steel would hold an edge better than the W#1 but my real question is if the T-F Denka is worth more than double what a Konosuke Fujiyama B#2 is worth? I feel that the T-F Nashiji is value priced and at the time I purchased it it was about 1/4 the cost of the Denka so given that I have to touch up the W#1 often is worth it for a home cook relatively speaking. There are a lot of very nicely crafted knives on the market and when the cost starts to approach $1000 I need to consider it carefully. I appreciate all of the knowledge and input from you guys.


Totally understand. Worth double a Kono Fuji, not to me. Worth $800-1k, not to me but others would strongly disagree. This is what makes all this so much fun!
As a home cook I have grown to not like AS steel. I can get B#1-2 much sharper much easier and they have more than acceptable edge retention.


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 12, 2020)

Value is in the eye of the beholder. Having tried multiple highly reviewed makers (Western and Japanese) a well made Denka is worth every penny imo. Some even shell out $4K for Ashi Honyaki and Yo Kato's. Would you say those are value propositions? We all have different motivations for why we own the knives we own and where we draw the line. For me the Denka provides a performance edge that nothing else I've tried competes with.


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## Henry (Feb 12, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Value is in the eye of the beholder. Having tried multiple highly reviewed makers (Western and Japanese) a well made Denka is worth every penny imo. Some even shell out $4K for Ashi Honyaki and Yo Kato's. Would you say those are value propositions? We all have different motivations for why we own the knives we own and where we draw the line. For me the Denka provides a performance edge that nothing else I've tried competes with.


I have much less experience with other knives than most on this fourm but so far would agree with you. My limited experience is the Shig (Ku and Kitaeji), Riverjump, Tekada AS, Zeros (AS), Kaejura (blue2), Koishi (AS). I would love to try some of the others mentioned on this forum one day but so far nothing cuts like my Denkas. I think lemeneid said it best, "..you never knew knives could cut like that."


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## lemeneid (Feb 13, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> Totally understand. Worth double a Kono Fuji, not to me. Worth $800-1k, not to me but others would strongly disagree. This is what makes all this so much fun!
> As a home cook I have grown to not like AS steel. I can get B#1-2 much sharper much easier and they have more than acceptable edge retention.


It’s the heat treatment. I’ve found the Denka to sharpen up buttery smooth and easier and faster than some blue and white steel knives.

I think what @inzite told me sums it up pretty well. Denka has that peak sharpness of white steel with the edge retention of R2.


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## jacko9 (Feb 13, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Value is in the eye of the beholder. Having tried multiple highly reviewed makers (Western and Japanese) a well made Denka is worth every penny imo. Some even shell out $4K for Ashi Honyaki and Yo Kato's. Would you say those are value propositions? We all have different motivations for why we own the knives we own and where we draw the line. For me the Denka provides a performance edge that nothing else I've tried competes with.




I agree that if you find your Denka to be the knife for you then it's worth what you paid for it. I'm still looking around to see whats available for a "reasonable price". I just picked up a Kato KU 240 Gyuto but haven't used it yet because I haven't decided if I wanted to keep it. I also just acquired a 180mm Shigefusa KU Santuko again to see if it appeals to me (after handling it probably not). If I happen to get to try a T-F Denka sometime I might be interested but I would have to be convinced that the superior edge retention over my Nashiji is worth the significant price jump. Since I bought my Nashiji about 4+ years ago the price of his offerings has escalated quite a bit.


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 13, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> If I happen to get to try a T-F Denka sometime I might be interested but I would have to be convinced that the superior edge retention over my Nashiji is worth the significant price jump. Since I bought my Nashiji about 4+ years ago the price of his offerings has escalated quite a bit.


Yes prices have definitely gone up since my first TF purchase in 2015 (exchange rate was much better then too which helped). I have Nashiji,, Mab and Denka blades and the difference is tangible. There is no comparison in terms of edge retention between the Nashiji and Denka. The Mab is no slouch however and closer to Denka than to Nashiji.


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## Garm (Feb 13, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> The Mab is no slouch however and closer to Denka than to Nashiji.



Interesting. This is what I tried, perhaps somewhat clumsily, to ask you about earlier(post #31).
You really feel there's that big of a difference between these two versions of TF's white #1?


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 13, 2020)

Garm said:


> Interesting. This is what I tried, perhaps somewhat clumsily, to ask you about earlier(post #31).
> You really feel there's that big of a difference between these two versions of TF's white #1?


Yes. The extra carbon in the core steel used for the Mab series is what makes the difference. It probably has a different HT too compared to the Nashiji which sorta makes sense if the elemental composition of the steels is different. This is mainly supposition, based on the information out there.


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## Barmoley (Feb 13, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Yes. The extra carbon in the core steel used for the Mab series is what makes the difference. It probably has a different HT too compared to the Nashiji which sorta makes sense if the elemental composition of the steels is different. This is mainly supposition, based on the information out there.


This seems unlikely. You guys are saying that Nash is wh1 and Mab wh1A the difference in carbon is tiny, on average 0.05%. If they are heat treated differently then sure there is a difference, don't know why they would bother, but it is possible I suppose. Both versions of the steel are in the same class with performance in the same class, while I am sure the difference can be detected with scientific testing to expect an end user to detect it in use is optimistic to say the least. If you are feeling the difference it is most likely from something else, geometry most likely or maybe the heat treats are different.....


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## parbaked (Feb 13, 2020)

The Nashiji use pre-clad White #1
The Maboroshi start with unclad White #1A, which TF clads in house.
Maboroshi knives see a lot more forge and hammer time than the Nashiji.
The extra carbon in White #1A is necessary to replace carbon lost in the extra cladding and forging steps.
The carbon content should be very close after forging.

I think it is the TF cladding process and heat treat that differentiates Maboroshi from Nashiji and other White#1 knives.


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## Henry (Feb 13, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Yes. The extra carbon in the core steel used for the Mab series is what makes the difference. It probably has a different HT too compared to the Nashiji which sorta makes sense if the elemental composition of the steels is different. This is mainly supposition, based on the information out there.



I had heard from a guy who was involved in making the documentary, "Spring Hammer." These guys have a pretty close relationship with TF and also interviewed him for the film. As a result they may have a slight bias toward him. Anyways, they told me TF uses 3 times the core steel in his Mab and Denka compared to other knife makers. Though I could have gotten this part wrong, my understanding was that blade spend a lot more time under the hammer to compress the steel. TF sources his steel from the same place as other smiths but is a lot more dense. This my explain his that special quality over blades made with the same steel. This could also explain the higher price point for the same steel. They also claim his heat treatment process is slightly different than most smiths. But I think a lot of smiths seemed to have diverse theories on heat treatment for the same steel. I would have no clue who is right. Perhaps they are all right in the qualities they are striving for. Not sure if what I said is true, this is what I was told by someone who visited TF's forge.

What I do know, is that all my AS knives feel different when they cut and on the stones compared to my Denka.


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## Barmoley (Feb 13, 2020)

Forging steel doesn't increase its density. 

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/07/22/forged-vs-stock-removal-knives/

from the article, for the lazy








@Larrin I hope you are OK, with me quoting you, if not please let me know and I will stop.


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## RDalman (Feb 13, 2020)

It's also important to quench blades aligned towards magnetic north. And piss in the quenchtank. And scream like a samurai.


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## Barmoley (Feb 13, 2020)

RDalman said:


> It's also important to quench blades aligned towards magnetic north. And piss in the quenchtank. And scream like a samurai.


Oh I heard that unicorn blood is very important and to cool the blade galloping on a horse, but only during full moon, or was it new moon, crap.....another secret lost....


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## M1k3 (Feb 13, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Oh I heard that unicorn blood is very important and to cool the blade galloping on a horse, but only during full moon, or was it new moon, crap.....another secret lost....



Virgin Unicorn blood or just any ole Unicorn blood?


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## inferno (Feb 13, 2020)

I would like to hear a few scientific reasons why/how TF's HT would be "better" than anyone elses. even just remotely plausible ones would do too.
from my viewpoint there isn't many if any unknown/secrets with HT'ing simple carbon steels today. All HT's are a compromise imo.


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## RDalman (Feb 13, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Virgin Unicorn blood or just any ole Unicorn blood?


I like to grind down japanese unicorns to dust and use in my quenchant. Like shigekatos and ashiyakis and such.


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## Carl Kotte (Feb 13, 2020)

RDalman said:


> I like to grind down japanese unicorns to dust and use in my quenchant. Like shigekatos and ashiyakis and such.



So That’s how you do it?!?!? The secret is out


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## Barmoley (Feb 13, 2020)

M1k3 said:


> Virgin Unicorn blood or just any ole Unicorn blood?


Dudddeeee...come on...everyone knows all Unicorns are virgins. If you don't believe me ask yourself this, have you ever seen a baby Unicorn?


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## jacko9 (Feb 13, 2020)

inferno said:


> I would like to hear a few scientific reasons why/how TF's HT would be "better" than anyone elses. even just remotely plausible ones would do too.
> from my viewpoint there isn't many if any unknown/secrets with HT'ing simple carbon steels today. All HT's are a compromise imo.



Even more so I find it difficult to understand Hitachi White Paper #1 being heat treated two different ways by the same blacksmith. I also don't recall seeing any information about White paper steel being broken down into sub-categories like White #1 and White #1A? Unless they toss in some ground up unicorn?


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## parbaked (Feb 13, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> Even more so I find it difficult to understand Hitachi White Paper #1 being heat treated two different ways by the same blacksmith. I also don't recall seeing any information about White paper steel being broken down into sub-categories like White #1 and White #1A?



I was at the TF shop and they showed me the Hitachi steel catalog. They definitely have two types of White #1 steel. TF explained that Type A has more carbon to replace carbon lost in the forging process.

Maboroshi is made from a stock that TF clads in house. This is the proprietary process that makes his White #1 steel different from other makers that use pre-laminated stock or have their own process for cladding. No one else makes knives froth same stock as TF unless he sells it to them.

The Nashiji is made from pre-laminated stock that is the same as used by other makers.

The blades are forge from two very different stock of White #1. It makes sense to treat them differently.


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## Matus (Feb 13, 2020)

Henry said:


> ... Though I could have gotten this part wrong, my understanding was that blade spend a lot more time under the hammer to compress the steel. TF sources his steel from the same place as other smiths but is a lot more dense. ...



Maybe this got mixed up with cold forging which is a process in which the forging causes disruptions in the steel and induces stress what yields a bit higher hardness at the cost of strength (and if overdone causes fractures). Carter talks about this in one of his videos. The bit with the steel density must have got lost in translation badly.


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## milkbaby (Feb 13, 2020)

The nashiji and maboroshi could be tempered differently resulting in different hardness. It makes sense to me to temper the lower cost line to a lower hardness to avoid chipping by users where as the more pricey line is tempered to higher hardness for more knowledgeable users less likely to use a more brittle knife in such a way as to damage it.

The cost in time to laminate your own san mai (including wasted materials from failures) would probably be enough to justify and increase in cost between knives forged from prelaminated stock versus self made.


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## Henry (Feb 13, 2020)

Matus said:


> Maybe this got mixed up with cold forging which is a process in which the forging causes disruptions in the steel and induces stress what yields a bit higher hardness at the cost of strength (and if overdone causes fractures). Carter talks about this in one of his videos. The bit with the steel density must have got lost in translation badly.


Perhaps...but I am not sure. I was never in his workshop. I was only repeating what someone told me.


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## JBroida (Feb 13, 2020)

Hitachi used to make different types of steels... white 2a white 2b white 1a and so forth... later, they just switched to making white 1 white 2 etc. TF just happens to have old stock of the type a.


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## ian (Feb 13, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Dudddeeee...come on...everyone knows all Unicorns are virgins. If you don't believe me ask yourself this, have you ever seen a baby Unicorn?



FWIW, there are many baby unicorns in my son’s bedtime material, c.f.

_The Baby Unicorn, _by Jean Marzollo and Claudio Marzollo. Scholastic Press, 1987. ISBN 0590401955


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## Xenif (Feb 13, 2020)

Barmoley said:


> Dudddeeee...come on...everyone knows all Unicorns are virgins. If you don't believe me ask yourself this, have you ever seen a baby Unicorn?



There are no fat unicorns, just pregnant unicorns. 

Heres a baby unicorn


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## Barmoley (Feb 13, 2020)

ian said:


> FWIW, there are many baby unicorns in my son’s bedtime material, c.f.
> 
> _The Baby Unicorn, _by Jean Marzollo and Claudio Marzollo. Scholastic Press, 1987. ISBN 0590401955





Xenif said:


> There are no fat unicorns, just pregnant unicorns.
> 
> Heres a baby unicorn
> 
> View attachment 71406



I stand corrected. Wrong again, oh well....


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## Corradobrit1 (Feb 13, 2020)

parbaked said:


> I was at the TF shop and they showed me the Hitachi steel catalog. They definitely have two types of White #1 steel. TF explained that Type A has more carbon to replace carbon lost in the forging process.
> 
> Maboroshi is made from a stock that TF clads in house. This is the proprietary process that makes his White #1 steel different from other makers that use pre-laminated stock or have their own process for cladding. No one else makes knives froth same stock as TF unless he sells it to them.
> 
> ...


This. TF W#1 and AS are a proprietary formulation. Not off the shelf steels. There is a lot more than 0.05% difference in carbon content over the prelaminated bar stock used in the Nashiji.


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## JBroida (Feb 13, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> This. TF W#1 and AS are a proprietary formulation. Not off the shelf steels. There is a lot more than 0.05% difference in carbon content over the prelaminated bar stock used in the Nashiji.



Considering how long hitachi has been thinking about stopping the production of these knife steels, knowing the difficulty of other makers getting steel, and understanding the minimums required to have custom steels made, this is likely not the case. More likely is that he had a lot of old stock of steel. Also, they have said as much directly in Japanese before, as have other craftsmen and companies who have tried to purchase some of this old stock from him. This is why he still has type a and type b varieties, even though they haven’t been produced in a long time. A few other blacksmiths have some sitting around too for what it’s worth.


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## jacko9 (Feb 13, 2020)

JBroida said:


> Hitachi used to make different types of steels... white 2a white 2b white 1a and so forth... later, they just switched to making white 1 white 2 etc. TF just happens to have old stock of the type a.



Jon - thanks for the information.


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## mc2442 (Feb 14, 2020)




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## inferno (Feb 14, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> Even more so I find it difficult to understand Hitachi White Paper #1 being heat treated two different ways by the same blacksmith. I also don't recall seeing any information about White paper steel being broken down into sub-categories like White #1 and White #1A? Unless they toss in some ground up unicorn?



from what i can assume you first austenitize the steel. there is a range here. maybe 780-820 degrees or similar. and if you go above this the steel will suffer from grain growth so this is avoided at all cost.
middle of the road is usually the hardest out of the quench.

then we have the quenching, could be oil/water/brine in order of aggressiveness. you end up with a HRC. preferably the max the steel can attain.

then you temper the steel. and this decreases the hardness. to get more toughness/less brittle steel. what happens here is you let out carbon atoms out of the steel crystals. these trapped carbon atoms inside the steel crystals is what makes steel hard. but its too hard straight out of the quench.

and you can temper at different temperatures, the higher you temper the softer the steel and the higher the toughness. and its almost a linear function with simple carbons.

sure you can cryo steel after quench and temper, but simple carbons forms almost no RA, too low temps and too low alloyed in the first place.

--------------

the variation of the white steel was to get the same %C as the regular type after you forge it since at 7-800C or so the carbon on the surface start transforming into something called carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide, and those are gasses. the equation probably dont work out though.


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## Mikeadunne (Apr 16, 2020)

Can anyone give me some direction on ordering direct online? I want a 210 mab, but I want to make sure I don’t get a dud as I hear tends to happen. Would rather pay less to buy direct but want to make sure I know exactly what to look for/ask


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## ragz (Apr 16, 2020)

Mikeadunne said:


> Can anyone give me some direction on ordering direct online? I want a 210 mab, but I want to make sure I don’t get a dud as I hear tends to happen. Would rather pay less to buy direct but want to make sure I know exactly what to look for/ask



I wouldnt worry about getting a 'dud' per say. Hit fnf is rough-- no doubt about that. His knives are amazing, period. Egregious problems are rare (and has been good about replacing said knives), and I haven't seen one in years. Note every knife I've personally gotten direct has needed at least a little love with some automotive sandpaper. When buying direct they will happily send you photos so you can pick from available stock. Though if you don't know your preferences (such as going for a taller one, thinner behind the edge etc) it might not be good to buy direct-- because it really does come down to preference and you can't guarantee a knife with a better finish from pictures alone.

If you are buying direct all I can advise is get pictures, pick the one that suits your preferences, and have some auto sandpaper handy.


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## Kristoffer (Apr 16, 2020)

I haven't actually received my 210 Mab yet (EMS is taking a while...), so I should probably not say too much, but I found email communication with Gaku to be great. Answers were prompt and very, very helpful. He said himself that he’s maybe not a very typical Japanese person, but I still got the feeling that some politeness and cultural sensitivity helped a long way.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 16, 2020)

Kristoffer said:


> I haven't actually received my 210 Mab yet (EMS is taking a while...), so I should probably not say too much, but I found email communication with Gaku to be great. Answers were prompt and very, very helpful. He said himself that he’s maybe not a very typical Japanese person, but I still got the feeling that some politeness and cultural sensitivity helped a long way.


110%


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## panda (Apr 16, 2020)

just dont get a TF if youre not prepared to do some work, easy as that. that being said, i have a custom denka on order and i'll admittedly be a little pissed if i have to mess with it much, lol.


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## jacko9 (Apr 16, 2020)

Well this past week Epic and JNS took care of my buying for a while; 210 Watanabe from Epic and a 240 Toyama from JNS - both pretty similar except length. My desire for a T-F Denka will have to wait until I unload some knives ;-(


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## Mikeadunne (Apr 16, 2020)

panda said:


> just dont get a TF if youre not prepared to do some work, easy as that. that being said, i have a custom denka on order and i'll admittedly be a little pissed if i have to mess with it much, lol.


Some aesthetic/cosmetic work doesn’t really bother me. But yes I don’t want to try to correct grind issues or spend many hours thinning. But as someone posed already on this thread, those complaints have not been common lately.


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## Runner_up (Apr 16, 2020)

I have a 270 Denka gyuto incoming from the man himself. Super stoked. 

I've purchased numerous times directly, always having interacted with Gaku, and think TF knives are excellent. In fact they are some of my favorites and I have tried many. My 240 Mab gyuto was a great performer ootb, but was a little thick for my tastes and did benefit from a minor thinning. If I had to use just one knife for work day in and out it would be my 210 yo maboroshi gyuto - one of the most perfect knives I have ever received.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 16, 2020)

Runner_up said:


> If I had to use just one knife for work day in and out it would be my 210 yo maboroshi gyuto - one of the most perfect knives I have ever received.


My 210 Yo Denka is that for me.


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## labor of love (Apr 16, 2020)

I’m personally 2-2 with Mabs without issues. This thin one I just purchased really has no problems whatsoever. My thicker old Mab was fine too but thicker than what I would’ve liked. In the future if I ever order direct I will request thin grind. It’s about on par with a thin grind yoshikane, but retains so much stiffness for such a thin blade. Really enjoy cutting with it.


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## captaincaed (Apr 16, 2020)

I intentionally chose the thicker of two when I picked one up, to leave room for correction if needed. Still moves through food like a wolf on cocaine.


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## captaincaed (Apr 16, 2020)

RDalman said:


> It's also important to quench blades aligned towards magnetic north. And piss in the quenchtank. And scream like a samurai.


Ever seen Murray on Forged in Fire? You would never know that _he _knew he was on camera.


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## labor of love (Apr 16, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> I intentionally chose the thicker of two when I picked one up, to leave room for correction if needed. Still moves through food like a wolf on cocaine.


Nice! Yeah, as you can see worlds apart for me. The older one is pretty blurry, but that edge needed some thinning.


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## TSF415 (Apr 16, 2020)

labor of love said:


> Nice! Yeah, as you can see worlds apart for me. The older one is pretty blurry, but that edge needed some thinning.View attachment 77180
> View attachment 77181


Is that not too righty for you?


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## labor of love (Apr 17, 2020)

The older thicker one I used to have was very righty. New thin guy feels great.


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## Mikeadunne (Apr 17, 2020)

Ok so is Goku the one who responds to inquiries through the website? That’s where I will ask for pictures of available blades yes?


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## J.C (Apr 17, 2020)

Imo for people who know how to thin/sharpen a knife, it’s better to opt for thicker grind so you can thin it to your liking and make it into “your” knife.
But for those who don’t know, better to let the expert done them for you.

standard maboroshi from them(factory stock) always come with thicker edge (unless you specified to make it thin).
I went to a local shop that has 2mab in stock and personally check them, both of them has thick and uneven sharpening edge (70/30 maybe). I brought it home and spent 2hours sharpening on chosera400 to get it to my liking and now it’s a beast!


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## JoBone (Apr 17, 2020)

For the difference between the maboroshi and Nashiji, they used to use different W1 - 1a vs 1b, with a difference of .1% carbon. Hitachi has unified the steel and now there is just 1a. From what I understand, it is much more difficult to work than 1b, so there is a decrease in the number of craftsman that can successfully work it. I’m curious if we see less of it with time.

Maboroshi has better heat treatment and is hammered more, so it can be thinner and has better edge retention.


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## Runner_up (Apr 17, 2020)

Mikeadunne said:


> Ok so is Goku the one who responds to inquiries through the website? That’s where I will ask for pictures of available blades yes?




Correct. Go on the website and order whatever knife you like. _Gaku _will send you and email with a paypal invoice. That is the time to ask for any specific requests and/or pictures. 

Cheers!


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## Runner_up (Apr 17, 2020)

J.C said:


> I went to a local shop that has 2mab in stock and personally check them, both of them has thick and uneven sharpening edge (70/30 maybe). I brought it home and spent 2hours sharpening on chosera400 to get it to my liking and now it’s a beast!



Nice work, looks much better.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 17, 2020)

JoBone said:


> For the difference between the maboroshi and Nashiji, they used to use different W1 - 1a vs 1b, with a difference of .1% carbon. Hitachi has unified the steel and now there is just 1a. From what I understand, it is much more difficult to work than 1b, so there is a decrease in the number of craftsman that can successfully work it. I’m curious if we see less of it with time.
> 
> Maboroshi has better heat treatment and is hammered more, so it can be thinner and has better edge retention.


Nashiji line is manufactured from prelaminated bar stock. Mab and Denka are completely forged in-house. So you're saying W#1b is no longer available from Hitachi in ingot form?


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## M1k3 (Apr 17, 2020)

I believe they no longer grade the steel as A or B. Now it's just White 1. So anyone saying it's 1a either has old stock (TF's case) or lying.


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## JoBone (Apr 17, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Nashiji line is manufactured from prelaminated bar stock. Mab and Denka are completely forged in-house. So you're saying W#1b is no longer available from Hitachi in ingot form?


That is what I understand from corresponding with Gaku earlier this week, he stated -
“Now they are unified into A.
It means that the number of craftsmen who use (can use) Shirogami #1 has decreased”

I think it’s a good thing, as it you now know what you are getting when you buy W1.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 17, 2020)

Thats interesting. Another reason to go Denka.


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## Simple27 (Apr 17, 2020)

I really want a TF but damn are they pricey...


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## Runner_up (Apr 17, 2020)

Worth it. Top tier knives IMO.


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## captaincaed (Apr 17, 2020)

labor of love said:


> Nice! Yeah, as you can see worlds apart for me. The older one is pretty blurry, but that edge needed some thinning.View attachment 77180
> View attachment 77181


That thing is a razor. You'd call mine a pig by comparison! Still cuts great for me, but sounds like it could even improve.


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## Kristoffer (Apr 19, 2020)

...and I spoke too soon. My package from Japan just came up “Returned to sender”. Looks like EMS is working so, so... A bit bummed out I must admit. I was looking forward to getting to try what top tier feels like. Guess I’ll have to wait another month.


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## TSF415 (Apr 19, 2020)

Kristoffer said:


> ...and I spoke too soon. My package from Japan just came up “Returned to sender”. Looks like EMS is working so, so... A bit bummed out I must admit. I was looking forward to getting to try what top tier feels like. Guess I’ll have to wait another month.


Sorry to hear


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## lemeneid (Apr 19, 2020)

captaincaed said:


> That thing is a razor. You'd call mine a pig by comparison! Still cuts great for me, but sounds like it could even improve.


My Denka petty is a fat bastard compared to the rest of the petties I have. But oh boy, it cuts better than any knife I have in my arsenal. Denkas are just magical creatures!


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 19, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> My Denka petty is a fat bastard compared to the rest of the petties I have. But oh boy, it cuts better than any knife I have in my arsenal. Denkas are just magical creatures!


I tried a chonky Denka once and it was a real pig. Wedged everything. Not all Denka's are the last word in cutting performance.


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## lemeneid (Apr 19, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I tried a chonky Denka once and it was a real pig. Wedged everything. Not all Denka's are the last word in cutting performance.


Fat TF knives will wedge, but you need to understand those TFs only shine if you cut at maniac speed, like those crazy viral YouTube videos you see so often. That’s how my fat Denka works, I don’t take my time with it. If you want to take it slow, use a lesser knife, or a super thin Denka.


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## valdim (Apr 19, 2020)

@jacko9 Would you post pics of the knives with these handles?


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## jacko9 (Apr 19, 2020)

valdim said:


> @jacko9 Would you post pics of the knives with these handles?




The two T-F's are the second from the top and the second from the bottom with his ebony handle upgrade.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 19, 2020)

I like the taper on those Ebony handle upgrades, especially the petty.


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## jacko9 (Apr 19, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> I like the taper on those Ebony handle upgrades, especially the petty.



Thanks both knives feel comfortable in my medium sized hands. Back when I bought them directly from T-F the upgrade wasn't that much more money (can't remember how much right now) but it seemed to be worth the price. The petty is a daily driver, the 240 gyuto not so much so considering the others in my rotation.


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## valdim (Apr 19, 2020)

@jacko9 Very nice pattern of both handles. Enjoy them many, many years to come.
You say "gyuto", but isn't it "deba"? TF gyutos have a finger rest.


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## J.C (Apr 19, 2020)

valdim said:


> You say "gyuto", but isn't it "deba"? TF gyutos have a finger rest.


You can opt for finger rest or without it. And that’s definitely a gyuto nashiji, with deba you will definitely see the crisp shinogi line because of the thick blade


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 19, 2020)

valdim said:


> @jacko9 Very nice pattern of both handles. Enjoy them many, many years to come.
> You say "gyuto", but isn't it "deba"? TF gyutos have a finger rest.


The finger rest is a signature TF feature. I like it, especially on Western handle TF's.


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## valdim (Apr 19, 2020)

J.C said:


> You can opt for finger rest or without it. And that’s definitely a gyuto nashiji, with deba you will definitely see the crisp shinogi line because of the thick blade


I got it.


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## jacko9 (Apr 19, 2020)

valdim said:


> @jacko9 Very nice pattern of both handles. Enjoy them many, many years to come.
> You say "gyuto", but isn't it "deba"? TF gyutos have a finger rest.



The second one from the top is a T-F Nashiji 240 Gyuto - I got it about four years ago as best I can recollect.


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## DanDan (Apr 19, 2020)

Does anyone recall what the Nashiji pettys went for before the price bump? I should've really grabbed one pre-bump but now they're closer to other stuff on the market.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 19, 2020)

They were about 20% cheaper


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## JoBone (Apr 19, 2020)

DanDan said:


> Does anyone recall what the Nashiji pettys went for before the price bump? I should've really grabbed one pre-bump but now they're closer to other stuff on the market.


I think the Nashiji are made with a better steel now. They used to be W-1b, as opposed to W-1a. Hitachi no longer sells 1b, now there is only one W1


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## McMan (Apr 19, 2020)

DanDan said:


> Does anyone recall what the Nashiji pettys went for before the price bump? I should've really grabbed one pre-bump but now they're closer to other stuff on the market.


They were $65 once upon a time. Few increases since then. Even at $95 it's a good deal for what you get.


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## labor of love (Apr 19, 2020)

JCK stocks them now.


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## Runner_up (Apr 19, 2020)

^^JCK is out of stock on TF petties


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## jacko9 (Apr 19, 2020)

McMan said:


> They were $65 once upon a time. Few increases since then. Even at $95 it's a good deal for what you get.




it's been quite a while but, I seem to recall that it was less than $100 with the ebony handle upgrade. I thought it was quite the bargain then and since I use it every day I still think it was a steal.


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## panda (Apr 19, 2020)

ebony handle is a major downgrade if you ask me


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## lemeneid (Apr 19, 2020)

JoBone said:


> I think the Nashiji are made with a better steel now. They used to be W-1b, as opposed to W-1a. Hitachi no longer sells 1b, now there is only one W1


Nashiji was never advertised as 1B ever, don't think TF ever revealed which variety steel nashiji was using.


McMan said:


> They were $65 once upon a time. Few increases since then. Even at $95 it's a good deal for what you get.


Nashiji is still $70-$80 on TFs website for the 135 and 150, very reasonable if you ask me.


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## parbaked (Apr 19, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Nashiji was never advertised as 1B ever, don't think TF ever revealed which variety steel nashiji was using.



I visited TF in April 2018.
He told me that Nashiji was 1b and Maboroshi was 1a. 
My understanding, translated through my wife, is that he needs the extra carbon in the 1A because of carbon lost in the process of cladding the Maboroshi in house.


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## jacko9 (Apr 19, 2020)

panda said:


> ebony handle is a major downgrade if you ask me


Well as a woodworker for over 40 years I didn't think of the ebony as a downgrade.


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## M1k3 (Apr 19, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> Well as a woodworker for over 40 years I didn't think of the ebony as a downgrade.



Have you ever seen an ebony handle made by a one armed monkey?


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## TSF415 (Apr 19, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> Well as a woodworker for over 40 years I didn't think of the ebony as a downgrade.


I don’t know panda but I know panda doesn’t like ebony handles. Lol. I think they’re cool but that don’t have the same type of grip as other wood.


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 19, 2020)

Depends on the type of Ebony, how its finished and the knife its on due to its density. Love the Ebony handles on my Ashi Honyaki's and Yo TF Denka. Really disliked it on the Konosuke Fujiyama. Go figure.


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## lemeneid (Apr 19, 2020)

I love ebony, but it has to be good ebony, not what some retailers put on theirs. 
Example, I think James has some good ebony for his knives.


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## TSF415 (Apr 19, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> I love ebony, but it has to be good ebony, not what some retailers put on theirs.
> Example, I think James has some good ebony for his knives.


I like the ebony handle on my mazaki I got from KNS


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## McMan (Apr 19, 2020)

lemeneid said:


> Nashiji was never advertised as 1B ever, don't think TF ever revealed which variety steel nashiji was using.
> 
> Nashiji is still $70-$80 on TFs website for the 135 and 150, very reasonable if you ask me.


Indeed, reasonable--though slightly higher than $70/$80...
The 135 is 8800jpy (~$80) and the 150 is 9900jpy (~$90).


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## bahamaroot (Apr 20, 2020)

jacko9 said:


> The two T-F's are the second from the top and the second from the bottom with his ebony handle upgrade.


Another Nashiji with 5 kanji. Nobody has ever been able to give me an explanation why some Nashiji have 5 characters and some have 2.


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## Runner_up (Apr 20, 2020)

bahamaroot said:


> Another Nashiji with 5 kanji. Nobody has ever been able to give me an explanation why some Nashiji have 5 characters and some have 2.



It has seems to me that a long time ago the nashiji had the 5 characters, and then they switched maybe 6+ years ago. 

Always wondered the same thing though


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## Corradobrit1 (Apr 20, 2020)

Maybe around the time the tou cou kanji stopped appearing on TF blades


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## bahamaroot (Apr 20, 2020)

My Nashiji is older than the one pictured. Mine has two kanji the one pictured has five.


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## JoBone (Apr 20, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Depends on the type of Ebony, how its finished and the knife its on due to its density.





lemeneid said:


> I love ebony, but it has to be good ebony, not what some retailers put on theirs.



Three are all sorts of ebony, some are not even true ebonies. Wood shopping today I picked Gabon ebony, royal ebony, African Blackwood (some people claim as the original ebony), Indian ebony, Gombeira (Brazilian ebony, not a true ebony) and even 1 seriously rare piece of curly gabon ebony.

Ebony is a beautiful wood and if treated right it will last. However, it is a dense and oily wood which is admired for its beauty, but does not provide the grip that some cooks desire. I’m with you, I love a nice high quality piece of ebony.

For timing, I got a high end knife in the mail today with an ebony handle.... It sure looks like African Blackwood to me.


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## demirtasem (Jun 16, 2020)

Guys I’m preparing to order a Denka from TF and still reading the tips on previous threads. But a question popped in my head after reading this thread. I’m not really a wa handle user and I’m gonna order 210mm Denka with wa handle this time. But I don’t know much about woods. 

I’m planning to change the regular handle (just aesthetics matters). My question is what kind of handle do you suggest? For example can we say ebony is the best? Would you suggest ebony handle from TF (I think Panda and Lemeneid against it) or buy it somewhere else. If so are there any website specifically focuses on handles? Or Etsy is the best place to order? (I saw KNS is sold out and didn’t see at JKI, I saw rehandling service though.)


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## Corradobrit1 (Jun 16, 2020)

Just go for the freebie plastic ferrule handle. tbh both the Ho wood handles are pretty cheap and nasty. Or get the blade without handle. Then send it to get rehandled. If you want fancy there are several options, just search. I'd recommend Shihan. If you want practical but also decent aesthetically you can't go too wrong with these burnt oak





Burnt Oak and Horn Wa Handle B - Etsy


Exhibiting a grip and resilience similar to burnt chestnut, these oak and horn handles go through a traditional Japanese charring process know as “yakisugi,” or “shou sugi ban” in the West. This technique was created to weatherproof wood, and has the additional benefit of amplifying the grain for a




www.etsy.com





This JoBone is cool 





Japanese Wa Handle knife Handle Burnt Osage Orange and - Etsy


This is an octagonal Wa Style Handle made for Japanese style kitchen knives The body is made from burnt Osage orange with a wenge ferrule and ebony spacer Medium Size - it is suited for a 240 gyuto or other Japanese knife Weight 45g Length 139mm widths : 26.4x21.9 tapers to 23.9x19.8 Handle is




www.etsy.com


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## Chicagohawkie (Jun 16, 2020)




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## demirtasem (Jun 16, 2020)

Corradobrit1 said:


> Just go for the freebie plastic ferrule handle. tbh both the Ho wood handles are pretty cheap and nasty. Or get the blade without handle. Then send it to get rehandled. If you want fancy there are several options, just search. I'd recommend Shihan. If you want practical but also decent aesthetically you can't go too wrong with these burnt oak
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks!


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## nyc (Jun 18, 2020)

Hoping to get some clarification on the steel TF uses. Chigusa-kou was the term that was used on his website to describe AS. It has since been changed to just AS not too long ago. Chigusa-kou is still used on KW and another site in the same way.
From what I can glean off the little research I did, Chigusa-kou is from Hitachi but there is an older reference to it being Aogami 1, and another more interestingly saying it’s a TF proprietary AS. Looking forward to any insight on this.


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