# Cheapest stone for thinning



## Dhoff (Jul 2, 2019)

So, as the title states I am looking for the very cheapest options for thinning knives. Lifetime of the stone is not real important as this will likely not be done often.

Please help, I appreciate any advice


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## SeattleBen (Jul 2, 2019)

Gesshin 220 runs 45 usd.


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## stringer (Jul 2, 2019)

King deluxe 300 or suehiro cerax 320


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## thebradleycrew (Jul 2, 2019)

The smoothest brick you could find would probably be free. You'd have some work to do to clean it up if you are after a pretty finish, but it would work for thinning in a pinch. I'll second @stringer and suggest that the King Deluxe 300 at $28 online is a good bet too.


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## Benuser (Jul 2, 2019)

Automotive sandpaper on linen, P120. In Europe, Bosch 'Metal'-series. Use a hard rubber or soft wooden backing to avoid facetting.


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## Matus (Jul 2, 2019)

I think Ben has the best answer for you - as long as you come up with an idea how to attach and remove sandpaper from the surface you will be attaching it to reasonably fast, but each piece will not last you more than a few minutes (at most). Otherwise Bester 220 does a decent job and it is a big stone. Another option is Sigma Pro 240.


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## Nemo (Jul 2, 2019)

I thin with W&D sandpaper on the Kasfly. You can put one of the (included) soft rubber backings underneath if you want to maintain a convexity.


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## M1k3 (Jul 2, 2019)

King 300 or Norton Crystolon (sharpeningsupplies carries an almost exact generic copy).


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## stringer (Jul 2, 2019)

The King 300 is hard. The crystolon is hard and an oil stone. The cerax is softer and muddier. I don't have one yet but it's on my short list for next couple of months. For thinning knives of my own creation I like the harder stones. I need something softer and muddier for clad knives. It kind of depends what you're thinning. The crystolon or sandpaper is going to be the items that work with the most kind of steels. But they'll also do the most damage you have to fix with later stones.


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## YG420 (Jul 2, 2019)

the gesshin 220 works great and is fairly cheap


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## Dhoff (Jul 3, 2019)

Thank you very much everyone. I really appreciate your knowledge.


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## Seqmt (Jul 3, 2019)

The atoma 140 is a great option. Stays flat, cuts fast and you won't need to replace anywhere near as quick as a stone.


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## Bensbites (Jul 3, 2019)

Seqmt said:


> The atoma 140 is a great option. Stays flat, cuts fast and you won't need to replace anywhere near as quick as a stone.


You can also find other knock off diamond plates cheaper online.


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## Knife2meatu (Jul 3, 2019)

Sigma Power Ceramic #120 is very fast, stays flat, and is relatively inexpensive. The downside is that it can load, particularly if not thoroughly soaked. 

However, if I weren't set-up for flattening coarse stones on loose silicon carbide, I don't quite know how I'd go about conditioning and lapping it.


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## galvaude (Jul 4, 2019)

Norton Coarse Crystolon 8'' x 3'' $19.99


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## Thorndahl88 (Jul 4, 2019)

Jns 300 
Really great Stone. 
Feels finer, and cuts fast.


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## bahamaroot (Jul 4, 2019)

Seqmt said:


> The atoma 140 is a great option. Stays flat, cuts fast and you won't need to replace anywhere near as quick as a stone.


I hate removing the deep scratch marks from a 140 diamond plate. Doesn't really save any time from a coarse stone in the long run.


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## rick alen (Jul 5, 2019)

The King 300 is slow compared to other 300's, and there seems to be a trick getting it to cut to it's full potential that I really haven't mastered yet, but like other 300's is easy to clean up after. Geshin 230 is a much faster cutting option that I understand is also relatively easy to clean up after.

At this point if I were looking for faster I'd get the Geshin 220 and use the King as intermediary for the next up. But something like Geshin 220 and 400, or a 120 and 400, seems a much better option.


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## Dhoff (Jul 5, 2019)

Thank you everyone, I'll see about that gesshin 220 or follow the advice of Ben and Matus with sandpaper


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## Matus (Jul 5, 2019)

JNS300 is not particularly fast stone. Not for a 300 grit I mean. I have it and it has its use because it wears rather slowly and is thus more precise. But in speed it is roughly comparable to Shapton Pro 1000. It also leaves scratch pattern that looks finer than what I would expect from a 300 stone and MUCH finer than what Bester 220 makes.


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## M1k3 (Jul 5, 2019)

Matus said:


> JNS300 is not particularly fast stone. Not for a 300 grit I mean. I have it and it has its use because it wears rather slowly and is thus more precise. But in speed it is roughly comparable to Shapton Pro 1000. It also leaves scratch pattern that looks finer than what I would expect from a 300 stone and MUCH finer than what Bester 220 makes.



The JNS300 seems to be a good stone to first use as a bevel setter. The King 300 also.


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## Matus (Jul 5, 2019)

JNS300 is a good stone. Just that it’s strength is not in the speed. I think it is it’s relatively high hardness and fine scratch pattern that makes it more suitable for a more precise work (like working on wide bevels or straight razor repair and similar). And it surely can be well used to set edge bevels.


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## Benuser (Jul 5, 2019)

M1k3 said:


> The JNS300 seems to be a good stone to first use as a bevel setter. The King 300 also.


Any idea of the JIS grit of the JNS300?


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## chinacats (Jul 5, 2019)

Sidewalk works well, concrete steps are even easier...just have to find one w right grit..and cheapest option available


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## labor of love (Jul 5, 2019)

theres no sub 300 grit stones that are cheap that i like to use honestly, including the ones already mentioned. Sigma power makes a 240grit stone that i can tolerate but it cost more.
Cerax 320 is my fave low grit, king 300 isnt bad either...but prefer the cerax. Some say Cerax or King are fast or slow but it depends what were comparing them too. Either way theyre both pretty easy to use.


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## Knife2meatu (Jul 7, 2019)

A recent Amazon.ca shopping cart of mine inadvertently had a few cheap stones fall into it -- somehow... Seeing as they were as so inexpensive, I figured -- why not...

Long story short, the green DeBell #500 Grit stone is very decent for the $9 CAD it cost me. Looks to be made of green carborundum; scratches seem slightly coarser than 500 JIS, but finer than what I'd expect from a 320; anyway, the scratches are very regular.





https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51h4uv-VUTL._SL1047_.jpg

I see that there's a similar black carborundum version of the stone, but it's nearly twice the price for some reason, so I likely won't be trying it. On the other hand, I was looking through Amazon.co.uk, and over there the cheap stone is the black version; whereas the green stone which is cheap in Canada is more than double the price -- for whatever unfathomable reason...

Very decent stone, considering its price. Excellent for taking out the coarse scratches from the Sigma Power Ceramic #120 and getting set up for an #800 or coarse 1k. The scratches from this 500 are a bit coarse to go right to a finer 1k.


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## Benuser (Jul 7, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Any idea of the JIS grit of the JNS300?


Reason I ask, is that for those few strokes needed to set a bevel after good thinning, a JIS 300 would be quite too coarse and detrimental to final edge stability. I prefer something in the 600 range. With a Naniwa Pro/Chosera 500, I can easily jump to stropping and deburring on the 2 or even 3k. A bit minimalist, but it works.


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## M1k3 (Jul 7, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Reason I ask, is that for those few strokes needed to set a bevel after good thinning, a JIS 300 would be quite too coarse and detrimental to final edge stability. I prefer something in the 600 range. With a Naniwa Pro/Chosera 500, I can easily jump to stropping and deburring on the 2 or even 3k. A bit minimalist, but it works.



I'd use the JNS300 after doing the heavy metal removal. Then move to like 500 or so.


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## labor of love (Jul 7, 2019)

Benuser said:


> Reason I ask, is that for those few strokes needed to set a bevel after good thinning, a JIS 300 would be quite too coarse and detrimental to final edge stability. I prefer something in the 600 range. With a Naniwa Pro/Chosera 500, I can easily jump to stropping and deburring on the 2 or even 3k. A bit minimalist, but it works.


I agree-I use the chosera 400 after thinning to set the edge.


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## Bensbites (Jul 7, 2019)

Knife2meatu said:


> A recent Amazon.ca shopping cart of mine inadvertently had a few cheap stones fall into it -- somehow... Seeing as they were as so inexpensive, I figured -- why not...
> 
> Long story short, the green DeBell #500 Grit stone is very decent for the $9 CAD it cost me. Looks to be made of green carborundum; scratches seem slightly coarser than 500 JIS, but finer than what I'd expect from a 320; anyway, the scratches are very regular.
> 
> ...



I might pick up the 100 and 500 grit for thinning.


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## Bensbites (Jul 7, 2019)

Knife2meatu said:


> A recent Amazon.ca shopping cart of mine inadvertently had a few cheap stones fall into it -- somehow... Seeing as they were as so inexpensive, I figured -- why not...
> 
> Long story short, the green DeBell #500 Grit stone is very decent for the $9 CAD it cost me. Looks to be made of green carborundum; scratches seem slightly coarser than 500 JIS, but finer than what I'd expect from a 320; anyway, the scratches are very regular.
> 
> ...


Ok, had a f-it moment. I picked up the deBell 100 and 500 grit for $7 USD each from amazon.com (USA). I love cheap stuff...


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## Knife2meatu (Jul 7, 2019)

@Bensbites : There's a 100 grit? Can you link to it, I can't find it for some reason.

edit: NVM, found it -- a natural #100 grit stone, eh? I don't think so.


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## Forty Ounce (Jul 10, 2019)

+1 for atoma 140, gesshin 220.
Nanohone 200 is quite nice as well.


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## Michi (Jul 10, 2019)

Bensbites said:


> Ok, had a f-it moment. I picked up the deBell 100 and 500 grit for $7 USD each from amazon.com (USA). I love cheap stuff...


Just at a guess (I haven't tried the deBell stones myself), I suspect you'll get what you paid for. Good tools, almost always, are pricey…


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## Bensbites (Jul 10, 2019)

Michi said:


> Just at a guess (I haven't tried the deBell stones myself), I suspect you'll get what you paid for. Good tools, almost always, are pricey…


Quite possibly. There is a time for good tools and a time for cheap ones. I don’t thin often...


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## Knife2meatu (Jul 10, 2019)

Michi said:


> Just at a guess (I haven't tried the deBell stones myself), I suspect you'll get what you paid for. Good tools, almost always, are pricey…



The green 500 grit stone I mentioned is good -- comparable to similar green carborundum offerings from the likes of Matsunaga, Suehiro or Naniwa -- except for it's made in China, and easily less than half the cost of the Japanese stones, factoring delivery. This is less than a 20% what my King 300; Cerax 320; Shapton Pro 120; or the 220; or the 320; Sigma Select II 240 -- less than 20% what any of those cost -- and sometimes substantially less.

I ordered the natural 10k stone, entirely due to their money back guarantee which would allow me to keep if it lived up to my expectations and hence sucked hard -- and now have a nice "10k" paperweight. I suspect ordering their 100 grit natural would entail a similar outcome.


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## Dendrobatez (Jul 12, 2019)

Cubitron II 220grit ceramic sandpaper on your flattest stone with a couple of drops of water to keep it in place. It won't move around as long as you aren't applying a lot of pressure (which you shouldn't be anyway) - I use the back of my shapton glass stones. Anything lower grit will give you some random deep scratches that are a huge pain to remove.


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## Matus (Jul 12, 2019)

Dendrobatez said:


> Cubitron II 220grit ceramic sandpaper on your flattest stone with a couple of drops of water to keep it in place. It won't move around as long as you aren't applying a lot of pressure (which you shouldn't be anyway) - I use the back of my shapton glass stones. Anything lower grit will give you some random deep scratches that are a huge pain to remove.



Out of curiosity. - would the cubitron sandpaper be faster than a Atoma 140? I may soon need to do a lot of heavy work and consider my options.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 13, 2019)

Dhoff said:


> this will likely not be done often.



Late to the party... but if you really wont be doing it often, going in the direction of sandpaper is a good option. Some of the fabric backed low grits can be very aggressive.


I have been meaning to try a crystolon... Seems both cheap and hard.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 13, 2019)

Matus said:


> would the cubitron sandpaper be faster than a Atoma 140



No idea... but I really dislike the feel of thinning on Atoma plates. Great for flattening stones or creating slurry... but nasty feeling for knives!


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## Matus (Jul 13, 2019)

Nobody likes thinning on Atoma, I am just trying to get an idea about the speed when using the 220 cubitron sandpaper.


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## zizirex (Jul 13, 2019)

Here in Vancouver, Knifewear sells Naniwa lobster 150-180 grit GC for $10, but only for local buy. Different prices for online


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## Matus (Jul 14, 2019)

I have just thinned a CCK 1303 cleaver with the Bester 220. It did a good job without dishing all that much. But I am intrigued by the sandpaper option, just need to think of some simple, yet robust and easy to use holder.


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## Luftmensch (Jul 14, 2019)

Matus said:


> Nobody likes thinning on Atoma, I am just trying to get an idea about the speed when using the 220 cubitron sandpaper.



Amen!

You probably have more experience than me... but I found the Atoma to be a daemon when sharp - but while it did remain flat... it dulled quickly enough. Once 'dull' it still works... but I dunno? I felt it was bluntish on the core steel while gouging the cladding. Combined with the ****** slippery feeling... I felt it was an expensive option.



Matus said:


> But I am intrigued by the sandpaper option, just need to think of some simple, yet robust and easy to use holder.



Worth a shot... I have found the 'regular' (aluminium/silicon carbide) sandpaper to be effective. The Ceramic grit stuff looks interesting.

I have a Casfly... I like it but I am not sure I would recommend it for heavy duty use. My main criticism is changing paper is slow - mostly because the paper needs to be cut to fit in the holder. It is then a little bit fiddly to clamp the paper. For small projects this is ok. But... for large projects... if the paper only lasts two minutes and then you spend 30 seconds swapping out paper - a quarter of your time is spent cycling paper! So my advice to you would be to find the paper you want to use and design a jig around that. You'd be able to take advantage of the whole sheet (should have a longer working life) rather than cutting it up. Some simple clamp arrangement might be enough to keep the paper from moving and make swapping it out faster.


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## stringer (Jul 14, 2019)

Matus said:


> I have just thinned a CCK 1303 cleaver with the Bester 220. It did a good job without dishing all that much. But I am intrigued by the sandpaper option, just need to think of some simple, yet robust and easy to use holder.



I use a hand sander for a cheap Kasfly. I stretch the sandpaper as tight as I can and then put the handle in my vise. It already has a stiff foam pad to use as soft backing. If I want it more stiff then I stick a diamond plate between the sandpaper and the foam.


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## Nikabrik (Jul 14, 2019)

Had anyone ever used a King G-45 220 grit? They look to be $15-25.


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## ared715 (Jul 15, 2019)

Just saw a listing for King 220 for 13.00$ at MTC on sale ATM.... considering it as ive go some major repair work on the horizon. For that inexpensive it’s worth a **** to me! If I snag one I’ll review the wear resistance etc.... 
link:
https://www.mtckitchen.com/king-220-knife-sharpening-stone-ht-61/


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## Desert Rat (Jul 22, 2019)

I am a oil stone sharpener and while I hate the feel of the Norton crystolon stones I don't know what I would replace them with? I still have a couple of the Norton IM 313 tri hones that I thought would be long gone by now. Hard to get rid of them big stones especially when I need to really move some steel.
Sharpening Supplies sells a single stone holder that will hold those big replacement stones for the IM 313, the stones are 2 1/2" x 11 1/2" x 1/2". I use the single stone holder also as I have Ark's that fit it. I use it often with no complaints.


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## Benuser (Jul 23, 2019)

To be used with caution AYOR: a good file, with the knife mounted in a vise.
Used this Bahco one with a NOS Sab — soft carbon — to reduce the fingerguard and correct profile in the heel area. Use it diagonally to the edge with a light touch. Take care, will develop some heat and is likely to destroy the HT if used near the edge with pressure.


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## inferno (Jul 23, 2019)

I have the shapton pro 220 and glass 220. I think those are quite cheap. at least the pros from germany was. 

these also melt away quite fast. but i guess its the price you pay for speed. 
But now i read the pro 120 is longer lasting?? yeah? Can anyone confirm this? I have read for many years the 120 was wearing away like crazy, even more crazy than the 220. 
**************

I have the sharpening file from bahco. i actually have almost all files from bahco. these are now made in spain or portugal i think. not sweden any more! but its the best files i can get hold of here so i still get these. 

I think you would kill one of these very quickly filing hardened knife steel though.


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## Dendrobatez (Jul 24, 2019)

Matus said:


> Out of curiosity. - would the cubitron sandpaper be faster than a Atoma 140? I may soon need to do a lot of heavy work and consider my options.



I haven't used an atoma but I have used other plates and I really dislike it as they tend to leave uneven marking. It's a bit slower to thin but evens out in the long run as you have a more uniform scratch pattern which is quicker to remove on stones. Home Depot has cubitron that's almost identical in size to shapton glass stones (which makes a good base) for $4-5 a pack.
I just did a moritaka petty with this and it only took 1 sheet of each grit to do the job


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## Dendrobatez (Jul 24, 2019)

Double post.


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## Lotmom (Jul 24, 2019)

I Have a king 220 and it works *okay*... I find it to be so soft that with any amount of pressure it just releases particles for no reason. I also have a 220/1000 combo from lee valley, it is much harder, but still cuts quickly. I would highly recommend.


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## Byphy (Jul 24, 2019)

New to the forums and to thinning (and sharpening for that matter). Apologies if this is the wrong thread, but approximately how long would it take to thin a blade by hand on a CKTG 80 grit diamond plate?

Not trying create a laser but there feels like there’s a bit of shoulder to it behind the edge. 

Thanks in advance.


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## M1k3 (Jul 24, 2019)

Byphy said:


> New to the forums and to thinning (and sharpening for that matter). Apologies if this is the wrong thread, but approximately how long would it take to thin a blade by hand on a CKTG 80 grit diamond plate?
> 
> Not trying create a laser but there feels like there’s a bit of shoulder to it behind the edge.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Depends on how much you want to remove. But I'd say check every 5-10 "swipes"? Those scratches are going to be deep. Is it bad enough to warrant going that low?


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## Byphy (Jul 24, 2019)

@M1k3 
It was a hand me down santoku and it feels a bit thick. I posted a pic on my original post. Perhaps I don't have to go that low, thought it might speed up the process though.


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## Knife2meatu (Jul 24, 2019)

Lotmom said:


> I Have a king 220 and it works *okay*... I find it to be so soft that with any amount of pressure it just releases particles for no reason. I also have a 220/1000 combo from lee valley, it is much harder, but still cuts quickly. I would highly recommend.



You mention a 220/1000 combo from Lee Valley -- is that the Norton Combo waterstone? It certainly sounds like it could be. I'm interested in hearing a comparison between the Norton and the King -- both usually get described as fast wearing -- but based on your comment, assuming you do mean the Norton, I would take it that the King is even faster wearing still than the Norton. Is that right?

I've never felt much yearning to try the Norton 220. But I've recently been quite pleasantly surprised by the 1k and 4k.


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## Lotmom (Jul 25, 2019)

Knife2meatu said:


> You mention a 220/1000 combo from Lee Valley -- is that the Norton Combo waterstone? It certainly sounds like it could be. I'm interested in hearing a comparison between the Norton and the King -- both usually get described as fast wearing -- but based on your comment, assuming you do mean the Norton, I would take it that the King is even faster wearing still than the Norton. Is that right?
> 
> I've never felt much yearning to try the Norton 220. But I've recently been quite pleasantly surprised by the 1k and 4k.


Im unsure on what stone it is as I've worn down the printing, but it very well may have been the norton.


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## Yet-Another-Dave (Jul 27, 2019)

Lotmom said:


> Im unsure on what stone it is as I've worn down the printing, but it very well may have been the norton.



The only 220 / 1000 Combo on the LV US site right now is the Norton synthetic water stone.

I don't recall ever hearing a (Japanese kitchen) knife user recommend the Norton water stones. For wood workers, it's often the first water stone experience and seems to mostly be mentioned as "pretty good, I used them before I got my XYZZY stones". (Sorta' like basic King stones often are mentioned here. Of course, the XYZZY stones are almost never the same, again sorta' like here, because personal preference.)


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## inferno (Jul 27, 2019)

I think the norton stones are good enough to do the job. the 4/8k combo was the go to baseline for almost all striaght razor users a few years back. but in reality the 8k norton is like a 4k jis stone. still many people shaved of the 8k side. its was the defacto baseline for all other stones. 

there are no good or bad stones there are just different stones. imo.

i prefer the glass stones but that doesn't exactly make them "better" for everyone else. ymmv.


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