# Options to extend 400 - 1K - 3K Chosera set?



## cabarete_cub (May 11, 2015)

After trying to teach myself sharpening for a year (and grinding a couple of knifes - nothing expensive, just run of the mill Japanese carbon - to half their original size in the process), I started wondering maybe it is time to extend my 400 - 1K - 3K range of Naniwa Chosera stones. Would it make sense at my skill level?


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## chinacats (May 11, 2015)

I'd probably just put away the 400 and only use it for emergencies. Higher grit wouldn't hurt either I suppose.


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## cabarete_cub (May 11, 2015)

Emergencies do happen. I don't know if it my personal quirk or a general beginner's thing, but I tend to straighten (maybe "flatten" is a better word) the edge. Then I would take it to the 400 and furiously grind to restore the curvature. 

But, yes, the higher grit is what my question was mostly about. I like the Choseras a lot, but price of finishing stones is hard to justify for me. Wanted to keep it splash-and-go though if possible.


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## Cashn (May 11, 2015)

By straighten do you mean grinding the edge at 90 degrees to the stone?


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## panda (May 11, 2015)

there is NO need to go higher than 3k for kitchen knives, i stop at chosera 3k myself.


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## chinacats (May 12, 2015)

cabarete_cub said:


> Emergencies do happen. I don't know if it my personal quirk or a general beginner's thing, but I tend to straighten (maybe "flatten" is a better word) the edge. Then I would take it to the 400 and furiously grind to restore the curvature...



I think maybe if you can explain this it will lead to an answer that may be of use. I'm about positive it's the reason you're ripping through steel at such a high rate. You shouldn't be re-profiling the knife when you sharpen and that is what it sounds like you are saying here. The idea is to sharpen in line with the profile maintaining the original curvature as you sharpen.




cabarete_cub said:


> Would it make sense at my skill level?



I believe the approach needs to be, how to up the skill level and my guess is that it doesn't involve another stone.


For normal sharpening you only need the 3k as Panda noted, but if you like a higher grit finish then sure get a 5-6k. Only rarely will you need to go down even to a 1k. Learning to strop your knives rather than always thinking about sharpening may be a good thing as well.


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## gic (May 12, 2015)

the rika 5000 is a nice inexpensive finishing stone to see if you want to go up to that grit. Some 3 micron/1 micron diamond spray on balsa may be something else you want to experiment with....


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## cabarete_cub (May 12, 2015)

chinacats said:


> I think maybe if you can explain this it will lead to an answer that may be of use. I'm about positive it's the reason you're ripping through steel at such a high rate. You shouldn't be re-profiling the knife when you sharpen and that is what it sounds like you are saying here. The idea is to sharpen in line with the profile maintaining the original curvature as you sharpen.



I'll try to explain with a picture. http://imgur.com/hWqh8j4

I understsnd that I need to keep the profile. It is just that I feel more confident working along the long segment (1-1), a bit less along 2-2 and almost not at all alomg 3-3. More confidence -> more pressure (l know, should be 'precision', not 'pressure') -> more metal is gone.

Anyway, I think I'll take the advice to concentrste on the technique for the time being.


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## Cashn (May 12, 2015)

https://m.youtube.com/user/JKnifeImports

And 

https://m.youtube.com/user/maxim200...nnotation_id=51487060-0-2107-9cd5-47d7b342f6a

Lots of good videos there, not all sharpening tutorials but just watching hand placement and technique can help.


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## chinacats (May 12, 2015)

I would highly recommend the links Cashn posted. By sharpening the way you are, you are reaching higher into the steel requiring more thinning and almost certainly not being able to get back to the original profile much less the original geometry. Keep asking questions and you'll get the sharpening straightened out fairly easily.


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## daveb (May 12, 2015)

Agree that it's a technique issue and not an equipment issue. The videos cited above are great resources. Learning to use the stones is not rocket science but can be problematic with no one on one instruction and a lack of immediate feedback or measures of progress. 

I've been beating on my knives for a couple years now and while I would not describe my efforts as proficient, I do have the sharpest knives in my zip code.:cool2:


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## Benuser (May 12, 2015)

The Naniwa 8k Junpaku aka Snow-white would be a nice complement for stropping and deburring. Hard, fast, smooth, with a great feed-back and affordable. Avoid the Chosera 5k. It won't contribute very much after the 3k, is a bit soft, hard to handle and rather expensive,


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## Matus (May 12, 2015)

I would only get finer grit stone than the 3k you already have, if I would find the edge has more bite than I would like (that would of course depends on the knife, its use and material). On contrary - I find if I use 6k stone with too much rigour, than I get edge that starts to slide on tomatoes. But if you do want finer edges get something in the 6000 - 8000 region (again, stone dependent, my pick would be Gesshin 6000 or JNS 6000). You could also consider to get a natural stone - Takashima or Hakka, but those will cost north of $200.

Also - if you managed to grind a knife to half its original size in a year you may be overdoing is a bit. Even in a pro environment a knife would not loose weight that fast.


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## Benuser (May 12, 2015)

A light use -- just lightly stropping and deburring -- on the Snow-white after a similar light use of the Chosera 3k will give a crazy aggressive edge, decent previous sharpening presupposed on a 800 or 1k.


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## cabarete_cub (May 12, 2015)

Benuser said:


> ... decent previous sharpening presupposed on a 800 or 1k.



I'm afraid I'd have to concentrate on that, the desire to purchase another stone notwithstanding. And both metalmaster and 330mate don't currently have Snow White in stock. Do we have any reports on how new series 8000 Naniwa compares to the Snow White?


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## Dardeau (May 12, 2015)

Maybe an atoma plate, if you are wearing that much steel, those stones are going dish pretty quick


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## cabarete_cub (May 12, 2015)

daveb said:


> . I do have the sharpest knives in my zip code.:cool2:



Lol, those are the words to live by. Seriously, great. And yes, I have watched the videos, many times over, but like you said, feedback is a crucial thing to have. And it is so easy to convince yourself that "I'm doing it exactly the way he does". Like a musician who strikes a key on the piano. But so do I. Yeah... right.


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## cabarete_cub (May 12, 2015)

Dardeau said:


> Maybe an atoma plate, if you are wearing that much steel, those stones are going dish pretty quick



I was exaggerating about "half a knife". Maybe 3 or 4 mm, and that's because being eager to learn I was sharpening them 2-3 times a week. Only the 400 lost some 1-2mm, although per OsakaJoe's (hope that's correct user name, sorry if not, it was some half year ago) advice I'm flattening them religiously.


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## psfred (May 12, 2015)

I never use a 400 grit or lower stone (mine is a King deluxe 300) for anything other than repair or thinning -- normal sharpening starts on my Bester 1200.

You need only remove enough steel to obtain a palpable burr, as that means you have reached the apex of the edge on that stone and further grinding will only remove more metal and thicken the knife behind the edge since you are removing steel from the apex. A knife in decent condition -- edge not flattened, no chips large or small, etc -- will require very little time on a 1000 grit stone to refresh the edge. Only if the edge has been pounded flat or the knife has been abused by, say, a pull through sharpener or very bad technique would you need more than a few passes to get a burr.

The trick is to find the burr when it just appears, don't wait until it's visible to the naked eye to remove it and move to the next stone.

3K is a good stopping point, but that is also steel dependent. Some knives will work wonderfully at higher grits, others won't. Stainless in the 440 family won't benefit from a high grit edge as a rule as it won't hold the edge produced nearly as long as one from a 3k stone and won't cut as well, either, once the edge contacts a cutting board. This is due to the tearing out of the fairly large carbides typical of those steels, as well as CroMoVa type steels typical of the old standard German knives. Modern ones are often patterned after Japanese knives using much harder steel, a different story.

I would suggest you thin your knives appropriately to restore the original geometry as much as you can, and learn to restore an edge using only the 1000 grit and higher stones in as few strokes as possible. This should give you very sharp knives, especially if they are high hardness Japanese style ones. Then wait until they are actually dulled before sharping again -- I only sharpen my Chicago Cutlery stainless knives every six months or so, they don't get that much use. Try stropping on the 3k stone before sharpening, too, and I would also suggest something like 0.5 micron chromium oxide on wood or hard leather as a final strop. Put the 400 grit stone away once you have restored the proper geometry, and don't use it for anything but repairs and thinning. Should save considerable steel.

You also need to learn to sharpen the entire edge of the knife evenly, as this is the only way to keep the initial profile intact. This is MUCH more difficult with western style knives as they strongly tend toward poor bevel shapes toward the tip, unlike typical Japanese knives which don't seem to have blunt bevels on the end away from the handle. Might just be my knives, but I find I have to spend a great deal of time to get the tip sharp on western knives while Japanese knives are sharp to the tip out of the box. Maintaining a constant bevel on Western knives takes some gymnastics with the handle since they typically have a sharper upturn to the edge at the tip than Japanese knives.

Note that Western boning knives are deliberately wide bevel and fairly dull toward the tip, this is to prevent them cutting into bone and snapping. The edge should be sharp, but with a very wide bevel. You want the knife to cut around the bone, not into it.

Peter


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## Keith Sinclair (May 14, 2015)

One can never have too many medium stones. For Splash & Go the Gesshin 1200 is good.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 14, 2015)

daveb said:


> Agree that it's a technique issue and not an equipment issue. The videos cited above are great resources. Learning to use the stones is not rocket science but can be problematic with no one on one instruction and a lack of immediate feedback or measures of progress.
> 
> I've been beating on my knives for a couple years now and while I would not describe my efforts as proficient, I do have the sharpest knives in my zip code.:cool2:


irate1:

:biggrin: I'm shooting for most free hand sharpeners per capita in my zip code.


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