# Raising burr of every stone vs. only once



## WaTFTanaki (May 10, 2021)

I know there are different paths to the goal but being new to this, I have seen two paths. One more like Murray Carter where you raise burr on 1k or medium stone and then de-burr and the rest of the sharpening process is almost all edge trailing strokes at different pressures on 3k+ stones. I use this & it works well. Path two is raising and de burring on every stone which seems to be what Jon does and some others. Is there a more logical or scientific reason for one path vs other?


----------



## Bensbites (May 10, 2021)

Personally, I like to raise a small burr on each stone. That way I know I am getting the apex keen on each grit. If I was really skilled I could get the apex right on each stone without raising a burr.

I don’t think I am losing significant metal each time.


----------



## stringer (May 10, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> I know there are different paths to the goal but being new to this, I have seen two paths. One more like Murray Carter where you raise burr on 1k or medium stone and then de-burr and the rest of the sharpening process is almost all edge trailing strokes at different pressures on 3k+ stones. I use this & it works well. Path two is raising and de burring on every stone which seems to be what Jon does and some others. Is there a more logical or scientific reason for one path vs other?



I raise a burr on 1k.
Then I remove the burr on the 1k with edge leading strokes at a slightly higher angle.
Then I build a new micro-apex with slightly higher still edge leading strokes on a 2k stone. 
Final cleanup stropping edge trailing lightly on denim, linen, or cardboard. 

I generally don't do edge trailing strokes on whetstones with knives or straight razors. I have tried it plenty but for me and my technique it brings nothing to the table except increased risk of a fin edge.


----------



## cotedupy (May 10, 2021)

On knives I know / have sharpened before I'd only raise a burr on one stone I think, but I wouldn't check after that, so don't really know. On knives I don't know I'd try to raise burrs and check throughout.

I imagine it's just a matter of personal preference really. The only reason I don't normally raise burrs (or check for them) is mostly just idleness. Plus I have slightly more confidence in the main part of my sharpening than I do in my de-burring.


----------



## Benuser (May 10, 2021)

The burr is no purpose on itself. It's a side-effect of the bevels meeting each other. Warning: in some cases burrs may appear before the very edge has been reached. 
On the coarsest stone in the progression, it will appear very clearly once the bevels meet, which I check with a marker and a loupe if I don't know the knife, to make sure I don't overlook a microbevel. I do my best to deburr as much as possible. On the next stones, a burr will appear within a few strokes. No need of any effort.


----------



## ian (May 10, 2021)

Mostly agree with @stringer. I’ll raise a small burr on a higher grit stone if I want a higher grit edge though, as opposed to an edge that still has some of the tooth of the previous grit. Otherwise, I’m not sure how you make sure you’re apexing it evenly, unless you are a robot.

Skeptical of ending with a bunch of edge trailing strokes on multiple stones. It’s so easy to create a tiny burr with edge trailing strokes, even with low pressure. Are you deburring more toward the end, or just counting on the light trailing strokes to do that? This might work with hard brittle steels, but I feel like that method won’t be very effective on most stainless, for instance. Edge leading strokes are great.


----------



## Rangen (May 10, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Warning: in some cases burrs may appear before the very edge has been reached.



Yes! I had to learn this one the hard way (especially on razors). I don't remember seeing it written by anyone before. At first, I thought I must be imagining things.

I do look for burrs on every stone, removing them with edge-leading strokes on the same stone (without raising angle), up to a point. That point is when I switch to all edge-leading strokes on later stones.


----------



## nakiriknaifuwaifu (May 10, 2021)

I debur on just my 1k (bottom stone in my weekly progression) and just strop all the way up. I try to flip a burr on the very last stone (high angle, light touch), and deburr once with an edge leading stroke just to be sure.

Then I strop on blank leather a couple times to knock the rest of the burr off and then strop back on my last stone.

Not sure if this works, maybe the sharpening gurus like @stringy and @ian can comment


----------



## JBroida (May 10, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> I know there are different paths to the goal but being new to this, I have seen two paths. One more like Murray Carter where you raise burr on 1k or medium stone and then de-burr and the rest of the sharpening process is almost all edge trailing strokes at different pressures on 3k+ stones. I use this & it works well. Path two is raising and de burring on every stone which seems to be what Jon does and some others. Is there a more logical or scientific reason for one path vs other?


i wouldn't characterize my sharpening that way... I'm more on the create burr at the beginning side of things. The rest is just refinement, reduction, and removal. That being said, if one wants to get nitpicky, we need to discuss what constitutes the creation of a burr versus the working on an existing burr.


----------



## TonyZ (May 10, 2021)

JBroida said:


> i wouldn't characterize my sharpening that way... I'm more on the create burr at the beginning side of things. The rest is just refinement, reduction, and removal.



Refinement - cleaning up the edge as you go up the grits? 
Reduction- what does this mean
Removal - removal of the burr?


----------



## jwthaparc (May 10, 2021)

TonyZ said:


> Refinement - cleaning up the edge as you go up the grits?
> Reduction- what does this mean
> Removal - removal of the burr?


Reducing the burr, and removing the burr.


----------



## JBroida (May 10, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> Reducing the burr, and removing the burr.


yes... this


----------



## Benuser (May 10, 2021)

Perhaps helpful to some: I push all debris by stropping on my hand, and deburr the other side. And vice versa. No reason to worry about the stropping angle: our skin isn't actually abrasive. AYOR.


----------



## WaTFTanaki (May 10, 2021)

JBroida said:


> i wouldn't characterize my sharpening that way... I'm more on the create burr at the beginning side of things. The rest is just refinement, reduction, and removal. That being said, if one wants to get nitpicky, we need to discuss what constitutes the creation of a burr versus the working on an existing burr.


Maybe I am blending you and Peter. Not trying to mis-characterize. 

in reality burr is a bit of a vague concept. Any time steel makes contact with a solid, the friction causes some steel to both depart the knife and some to cross to the other side of the apex, especially on edge trailing strokes. So does one steel molecule crossing crossing the apex constitute a burr. No, then how many molecules? Over what portion of the apex? This can get a bit silly and the definition of a burr is not precise, but we kind of know it when we see/ feel it, despite there being some continuum of agreement/disagreement on what that exact definition of burr is. To me it’s obvious on 500-1200k stones because there is a palpable lip on one side that I can touch. On 3k and up I don’t feel anything and don’t use a loupe or electron microscope.

So maybe my question is less about the reality of what is happening on the apex of the knife and more about the perception that people bring To what they are trying to accomplish through the progression of stones they employ. 

I have never been able to get edge leading strokes to work, but then again I have doing this for 2 months, so I don’t know much and my technique is still that of a student who has experimented and found that creating a burr at 500-1000k, doing edge trailing at progressively lighter pressures is the ticket thus far. Then moving to lighter trailing on higher grits before wire edge removal on cork and a micro bevel a la Jon on the last, most refined stone. This has been my first snd only path, but it’s cool to see the other paths and I look forward to trying them. So thanks to all for the input.


----------



## Benuser (May 10, 2021)

The best trick I've got for edge leading was: do exactly the opposite of the traditional edge trailing strokes, from tip to heel. Start with the heel where you would normally end on the stone. 
Yes, it does take some time to get it right. You may exercise by starting with an edge trailing one, and return, edge leading, to the initial position.


----------



## WaTFTanaki (May 10, 2021)

Ok I see a lot of love for edge leading. What is any advantages does it provide?


----------



## stringer (May 10, 2021)

Edge trailing strokes seem more forgiving when you are starting out. But often the edge isn't very durable because edge trailing is very likely to pull a wire edge that seems sharp but crumbles or folds after board contact. Edge leading with good pressure and angle control is best for reducing and eliminating the wire edge/ fin edge/ burr. In my mind these are all slightly different things. But it doesn't really matter when you are starting out. The terminology is amorphous and means different things to different people anyway.

And I am sure some people get great results with edge trailing, but it doesn't work for me. It's probably also because the vast majority of my sharpening over the years has been cheap stainless restaurant supply knives. And if you can get those to have sharp durable edges then whatever technique you use for that will work great with fancier knives.


----------



## ian (May 10, 2021)

stringer said:


> It's probably also because the vast majority of my sharpening over the years has been cheap stainless restaurant supply knives.



Yea, most of my sharpening over the last year has been crappy stainless too. Edge trailing doesn’t work well for that.

@WaTFTanaki, try to imagine what happens when you do an edge leading vs trailing stroke. If there’s a burr developed, an edge trailing stroke can just drag the burr along behind it, and even add to it as you push metal from the edge onto the burr. With an edge leading stroke, the burr will tend to get pushed into the edge and then abraded off. Of course, this is an idealization of what happens, eg on an edge leading stroke the burr could be bent at an angle where it doesn’t contact the stone and so doesn’t get pushed into the edge. But I think it’s accurate enough.


----------



## WaTFTanaki (May 10, 2021)

Will give edge leading a shot on one of my less loved gyutos and see


----------



## Nemo (May 10, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> So does one steel molecule crossing crossing the apex constitute a burr. No, then how many molecules? Over what portion of the apex?



Sorry to be nitpicky but... steel is generally not molecular, it is a metallic matrix with carbon (or nitrogen) embedded in the matrix. The exception is the carbides within the steel which are certainly molecular.


----------



## Benuser (May 10, 2021)

Edge trailing is fine for fast steel removal. But it leaves a huge burr almost instantly. No way you can get rid of it by only edge trailing. @ian explains better than I can. 
The latest big improvement in my sharpening happened when I've learned edge leading instead. Much smaller burrs, needing in the worst case only a few light longitudinal strokes to get rid of the last burr remnants. Much better edge stability.


----------



## captaincaed (May 10, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Perhaps helpful to some: I push all debris by stropping on my hand, and deburr the other side. And vice versa. No reason to worry about the stropping angle: our skin isn't actually abrasive. AYOR. View attachment 126586


Edge leading or edge trailing? @ian seems to know his stuff and recommends the edge leading for burr removal


----------



## ian (May 10, 2021)

PSA: I am not anywhere near a pro sharpener like Jon and others. I mostly lead instead of trail because of outdated gender stereotypes that should be smashed by feminist hulk. (RIP beloved twitter account.)


----------



## HumbleHomeCook (May 10, 2021)

To whatever extent the stone and my pressure and strokes provide, I raise a burr on every stone. That might be one stone or three, depending on the knife. But the burr is my feedback. I'm not good enough to shun it on higher grits, or even those who claim to not burr at all. Now, for sure, it gets lighter as I move up, but I embrace the burr.

As to edge leading vs. trailing, my take is, if you're not completely confident in your technique, default to edge trailing. Yes, you might get a hint of a "false" edge but in my experience it isn't terrible. With edge leading, you can easily crush or roll your apex and ruin all the work you did. It is the _proper _way to do it and worth working toward and you should but it can be challenging and shouldn't discourage folks.

If you mess up with edge leading, reset on a couple strokes and then do a couple edge trailing strokes. It's okay.

Some people will say angle isn't all that important. Well, that might be true when you're making several knife long strokes but when you get to those last couple deburring strokes, it absolutely matters.


----------



## M1k3 (May 10, 2021)

Edge leading comes in really handy for when the knife has been used some and is sharp, but, has that little hesitation when cutting stuff. For a "touch up".


----------



## JBroida (May 10, 2021)

for what its worth, i sharpen using predominantly edge trailing pressure through the entire process. The most important thing isn't that you choose one way or another, but rather work with a logical system that is designed to work well and works well for you.


----------



## Benuser (May 11, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> Edge leading or edge trailing? @ian seems to know his stuff and recommends the edge leading for burr removal


With coarse stones deburring by very short edge leading strokes, not willing to alter the scratch pattern. On the finest stones the last ones are along the edge. As for stropping on my hand, just to make sure, it is edge TRAILING.


----------



## cotedupy (May 11, 2021)

There's an awful lot of very good information and explication in this thread. (And not just @ian and @stringer who are always cogent and pithy when explaining this kind of thing - everybody else too).

I really just sharpen in a way that seems to work for me; it's mostly but not all trailing strokes, but always with a couple of light leading passes at the end of each stone. I'd never really thought about why that worked, but it seems to chime with what pretty much everyone has said here. This I thought a very good explanation... sounds to me like it makes sense anyway;



ian said:


> try to imagine what happens when you do an edge leading vs trailing stroke. If there’s a burr developed, an edge trailing stroke can just drag the burr along behind it, and even add to it as you push metal from the edge onto the burr. With an edge leading stroke, the burr will tend to get pushed into the edge and then abraded off.



And I imagine why in the end there's no real 'right' answer is this:



stringer said:


> cheap stainless restaurant supply knives. And if you can get those to have sharp durable edges then whatever technique you use for that will work great with fancier knives.



A lot of the knives we talk about sharpening here are pretty swish in the grand scheme of things. And they're a feck of a lot easier to sharpen than most things, whatever method you choose. So perhaps what we need more is a detailed analysis of how you go about sharpening all the shite...


----------



## Kawa (May 11, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> To whatever extent the stone and my pressure and strokes provide, I raise a burr on every stone. That might be one stone or three, depending on the knife. But the burr is my feedback. I'm not good enough to shun it on higher grits, or even those who claim to not burr at all. Now, for sure, it gets lighter as I move up, but I embrace the burr.
> 
> As to edge leading vs. trailing, my take is, if you're not completely confident in your technique, default to edge trailing. Yes, you might get a hint of a "false" edge but in my experience it isn't terrible. With edge leading, you can easily crush or roll your apex and ruin all the work you did. It is the _proper _way to do it and worth working toward and you should but it can be challenging and shouldn't discourage folks.
> 
> ...



Ive ruined so many 'fine' edges lately by trying to do edge leading heel-to-tip deburring strokes... Not funny anymore.
It just seems impossible to hit the exact angle in one sweep.
Too low angle and you are just doing nothing.
Too high angle and your work is gone.

The theory is clear. The movies show it clearly. Its just a pain to practise.

But i wont give up...for now..


----------



## big_adventure (May 11, 2021)

My 2 cents (which are likely not worth even that)...

Figure out a system that works for you. Your best bet is to try multiple methods. 

I started the sharpening voyage using the "normal" back-and-forth, primarily edge trailing strokes. I'd use crossing strokes or dragging through soft wood or cardboard to remove a burr. I would do this on basically every stone.

At some point, I changed to only using edge trailing strokes on my first stone, then using 2 edge leading, high angle strokes for burr removeal, then extensive edge leading strokes on the same stone than on each stone in the progression. I'd generally follow a pattern like 10 per side then 8, then 6, then 4, then 2, then 1. Then next stone, where I'd redo that progression. Then stropping on leather. That worked for setting HHT edges on multiple knives that still held up "OK" even in extension kitchen use. The downside is that it takes a relatively _long_ time per knife. It's also not the most flexible routine.

Now, I hybrid the procedure. I raise a very clear, very even burr on the first stone using back-and-forth, primarily edge trailing strokes. I deburr with high angle edge leading, then do a little polishing with edge leading strokes on that stone. I repeat the process on the next stone, starting with edge-trailing, back-and-forth strokes, then deburr and polish with edge leading. I don't worry about building a _big _burr on subsequent stones, but I like to feel a consistent-if-tiny wire. Then strop on leather, or denim, or cardboard. This process takes 5-10 minutes max on a low alloy steel, and still less than 15 even on ZDP189 or whatever.

In between, if I feel like an edge isn't positively ghosting through tomato, onion or pepper skin - if there is any hesitation AT ALL, I give it a set of edge leading strokes on the appropriate finisher stone, which usually buys some more edge life.


----------



## captaincaed (May 11, 2021)

Benuser said:


> As for stropping on my hand, just to make sure, it is edge TRAILING.


You can never be too careful!


----------



## ian (May 11, 2021)

ian said:


> With an edge leading stroke, the burr will tend to get pushed into the edge and then abraded off. Of course, this is an idealization of what happens, eg on an edge leading stroke the burr could be bent at an angle where it doesn’t contact the stone and so doesn’t get pushed into the edge. But I think it’s accurate enough.



FWIW, the ultimate version of this is @Kippington's method. He pushes the burr way over to one side using a high angle stroke, then does an edge leading (still somewhat high angle) stroke to fold it over and cut/abrade it off.


----------



## stringer (May 11, 2021)

ian said:


> PSA: I am not anywhere near a pro sharpener like Jon and others. I mostly lead instead of trail because of outdated gender stereotypes that should be smashed by feminist hulk. (RIP beloved twitter account.)



I am not a pro sharpener either. But I do make knives dull for a living.


----------



## ian (May 11, 2021)

stringer said:


> I am not a pro sharpener either. But I do make knives dull for a living.



One could argue that you then have to make them sharp for a living.


----------



## ian (May 11, 2021)

JBroida said:


> for what its worth, i sharpen using predominantly edge trailing pressure through the entire process. The most important thing isn't that you choose one way or another, but rather work with a logical system that is designed to work well and works well for you.



I remember a vid where you use an "edge following" horizontal stroke for deburring. Is that still an integral part of your routine?


----------



## Grayswandir (May 11, 2021)

Interesting stuff.

I've only recently entered into the world of Japanese knives and Japanese water stones. Before this, I would sharpen knives on cheap stones, usually oil stones (I used transmission fluid because that's what I had lying around) and not very often. My knives would get sharp, but never to the degree that I really wanted. Since purchasing some good knives and good Japanese stones (I guess good is relative, as some stones are inexpensive and work very well, while others are very expensive, and I imagine work very well also), I'm really shocked at how sharp my knives get now. I don't think I really understood what sharp really meant until I started my journey into Japanese steel and water stones.

I class myself as an amateur when it comes to sharpening, but thus far, I'm happy with the results I'm getting. I didn't notice anyone bringing up Murry Carter's method of deburring using a piece of wood? Someone did make a brief mention of using cork, but I wanted to mention wood, which is what I tried recently on my newest knife. I basically let the weight of the knife do the job for me, and passed the edge over a piece of particle board (my desk actually, it's old and there's a nice sized divot on the edge that faces me). It seemed to work really well. There was no more burr, and I moved onto my 6K stone to finish things up.

I used a nagura stone to create a slurry (it was an 8K nagura stone), thinking the finer grit would help polish and refine my edge. It seemed to work pretty well, or at least I think it worked pretty well. I don't really have enough experience to know for sure, since it's the first time I tried it. I also stropped using the pad of my hand like the other fellow, I read something about it not very long ago and figured I'd give it a try.

I finished things off with trailing strokes, and the edge has held up well so far, the blade is wicked sharp. Also, I'd appreciate any advice someone is willing to give in regards to my use of that 8K nagura stone. I know nagura stones are used to clean stones, but I've also read that the finer nagura stones can be used to raise a slurry and help polish the edge as well.


----------



## Kawa (May 11, 2021)

Something I still dont quite get,

Where is the difference between 'stropping on a little higher angle as where you were sharpening' and 'you ruined your edge due to too high angle stropping'.

Maybe its the same question as in the difference between a microbevel and hitting too high angle and ruin al you work done before..

I think its a small nuance, but maybe one can put it into words..


----------



## ian (May 11, 2021)

Maybe they're talking about having an inconsistent angle along the length of the edge? Like if you screw up your edge leading strokes by lifting your hand a whole bunch at the tip or something? My most common error is lifting my hand too much when dealing with a knife with a super flat profile and having the edge of the knife run along the edge of the stone.

Personally, I'm not sure why everyone seems to think leading strokes are so much harder to execute than trailing strokes. Maybe it’s more obvious when you screw up the angle, since you can have the edge dig into the stone? Or maybe people don’t flatten their stones? If you have a concavity in the stone, that can make it more likely for the edge to dig in.

One thing that helps me is that I always have a finger of one hand contacting the edge and the stone as a guide:






Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## JBroida (May 11, 2021)

ian said:


> I remember a vid where you use an "edge following" horizontal stroke for deburring. Is that still an integral part of your routine?


for single bevel knives... not as much for double bevel knives anymore. It works, but I've found much easier and more consistently effective ways to remove burrs.


----------



## Luftmensch (May 11, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> Is there a more logical or scientific reason for one path vs other?



As others have said, the best method is the one that works for _you_. Although that might sound frustratingly vague (everybody is a winner), you need to build up muscle memory and technique. You will get better results if you pursue a method that feels less awkward. As you gain confidence and control, you will find experimenting with other techniques easier.

Forming a burr is generally evidence you have removed enough steel from both sides to form an apex. In an ideal situation, you only need to do this once. Theoretically there is no need to do it on each stone. As you move up the grits, you are refining the scratch pattern on the bevel so the edge becomes less ragged. You are _not_ attempting to join/apex the bevels - you have already done this!

But take a few steps back. Do you even need to form a burr? If you are using a burr as evidence you have completed a step and can move to the next step, I would recommend using other methods. For example, the three finger test - it is a more general method for judging your progress. If you are doing maintenance sharpening because the edge is "ok but not amazing", you probably don't need to reform a burr. Use the three finger test instead. If you are sharpening a high hardness and wear resistant steel, it might not want to produce a stonking great burr like softer steels. Again... use the three finger test!


----------



## Grayswandir (May 11, 2021)

Would you consider the paper test to be an accurate way to measure sharpness vs. the 3 finger test? If the blade cuts through paper cleanly, you should be good to go, no? You can also test every area of the edge, from heel to tip, using paper.


----------



## M1k3 (May 11, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> Would you consider the paper test to be an accurate way to measure sharpness vs. the 3 finger test? If the blade cuts through paper cleanly, you should be good to go, no? You can also test every area of the edge, from heel to tip, using paper.


Paper won't really tell you how sharp it is. Just it's sharp enough, sharp along the edge and the feedback from the sound let's you know the burr is removed.


----------



## Grayswandir (May 11, 2021)

If the blade is really sharp, the cut will be clean. A duller knife cuts the paper differently, it leaves behind a jagged cut. I've never listened for burr removal, to be honest, didn't even know that was a thing. I did listen to an older Japanese gentleman talk about listening to the stone and how it sounds while you're sharpening, but that was more about being consistent with your technique, you can hear changes with more or less pressure, speed, etc. I'll have to try and listen for burr removal next time I sharpen. Should be interesting.


----------



## M1k3 (May 11, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> If the blade is really sharp, the cut will be clean. A duller knife cuts the paper differently, it leaves behind a jagged cut. I've never listened for burr removal, to be honest, didn't even know that was a thing. I did listen to an older Japanese gentleman talk about listening to the stone and how it sounds while you're sharpening, but that was more about being consistent with your technique, you can hear changes with more or less pressure, speed, etc. I'll have to try and listen for burr removal next time I sharpen. Should be interesting.


It's really the sound will be a little different, cut not as smooth and can't cut circles if the apex isn't fully deburred and formed. Not anything dramatic, just something if you're paying attention you'll notice.

Try fully deburring half the knife then cut paper.


----------



## ian (May 11, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> I'll have to try and listen for burr removal next time I sharpen. Should be interesting.



I only really started paying attention to this a few months ago. It's a good idea. Prevents you from having to test for burrs on other media as much.


----------



## Grayswandir (May 11, 2021)

> Try fully deburring half the knife then cut paper.



I was speaking more to sharpness in general, but I imagine a half deburred knife edge wouldn't cut very well, or would it?


----------



## ian (May 11, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> I was speaking more to sharpness in general, but I imagine a half deburred knife edge wouldn't cut very well, or would it?



I think he means you'll feel and hear the difference as your cut transitions from the deburred half to the undeburred half.


----------



## Grayswandir (May 11, 2021)

It makes me think of Jim Carry in the In Living Color Days, when he pulls a gun on the old kung-fu master, "Just give me the stone old man!"

He could be trying to trick me.


----------



## ian (May 11, 2021)

Luftmensch said:


> Forming a burr is generally evidence you have removed enough steel from both sides to form an apex. In an ideal situation, you only need to do this once. Theoretically there is no need to do it on each stone. As you move up the grits, you are refining the scratch pattern on the bevel so the edge becomes less ragged. You are _not_ attempting to join/apex the bevels - you have already done this!



Well, ok, but you're still trying to hit the edge, no? Raising a subtle burr is a good way to verify that you're not just polishing the shoulder of the previous bevel. If it's a big initial bevel, you can feel when you're polishing it correctly, but sometimes with really small bevels it's hard to distinguish by feel whether you're hitting the bevel or the shoulder.



Luftmensch said:


> If you are using a burr as evidence you have completed a step and can move to the next step, I would recommend using other methods. For example, the three finger test - it is a more general method for judging your progress.



Maybe I should try doing that more often. I use the three finger test, but mostly toward the end of the session to check on burr removal rather than earlier on. A burr is stupid easy to feel and verify, though, which makes it attractive...



Luftmensch said:


> If you are doing maintenance sharpening because the edge is "ok but not amazing", you probably don't need to reform a burr.



Mostly agree with this.


----------



## matchplay18 (May 11, 2021)

Great thread I have been sharpening knives over 30yrs. Find the best multiple sources you can to learn the fundamentals. From there you come into your own. For the greenhorn and newcomer this thread is invaluable. The nuances are infinite. For most people the biggest problem is to practice practice practice until it becomes this innate ability setting that blade is a kinetic sense. So far I have reinforced and learned a few new things


----------



## mpier (May 11, 2021)

I would agree with just about everything said here, practice all the techniques you can and add them to your arsenal. There are so many different shapes and sizes of knives and steels used that having all the techniques at your disposal can only help.

On another note you can cut a piece of paper with ease and still not cut a tomato


----------



## stringer (May 11, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> If the blade is really sharp, the cut will be clean. A duller knife cuts the paper differently, it leaves behind a jagged cut. I've never listened for burr removal, to be honest, didn't even know that was a thing. I did listen to an older Japanese gentleman talk about listening to the stone and how it sounds while you're sharpening, but that was more about being consistent with your technique, you can hear changes with more or less pressure, speed, etc. I'll have to try and listen for burr removal next time I sharpen. Should be interesting.



If you consider a 200 grit edge sufficient for kitchen work. Then cleanly cutting paper is a sufficient test of sharpness. (Sorry about the vacuum noise, if that wasn't there you could probably hear me remove the burr).


----------



## jwthaparc (May 11, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> Maybe I am blending you and Peter. Not trying to mis-characterize.
> 
> in reality burr is a bit of a vague concept. Any time steel makes contact with a solid, the friction causes some steel to both depart the knife and some to cross to the other side of the apex, especially on edge trailing strokes. So does one steel molecule crossing crossing the apex constitute a burr. No, then how many molecules? Over what portion of the apex? This can get a bit silly and the definition of a burr is not precise, but we kind of know it when we see/ feel it, despite there being some continuum of agreement/disagreement on what that exact definition of burr is. To me it’s obvious on 500-1200k stones because there is a palpable lip on one side that I can touch. On 3k and up I don’t feel anything and don’t use a loupe or electron microscope.
> 
> ...


My typical progression for a knife in fairly poor condition is as follows. 60grit Sic, king 300, shapton 1000, then either I go on to a natural, or my king 4000, or kitayama 8000. 

My goal with this progression is to repair damage with the 60 grit (which usually doesn't take long) It's so coarse I dont even feel a proper burr with it. Then I'm going on to my 300, then I keep going until I can't see any deep scratches on either side. I by then I usually have a decent sized burr. Then I do a couple stropping strokes to reduce it a bit. Moving on to the 1000 i repeat, just making sure all the scratches from the previous stone are gone, not so much worried about removing any burr at this point. After this I go onto my finishing stone. Whatever it is, I get rid of the previous grits scratches, then finally I start to really try to remove the burr doing as many strokes as I find necessary. After this I go on to a strop with either green compound, or .5 micron diamond emulsion to really be sure any burr is gone. 

That's the thinking behind my whole progression. The whole process usually takes me about 5 to 10 minutes a knife.


----------



## cotedupy (May 12, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Something I still dont quite get,
> 
> Where is the difference between 'stropping on a little higher angle as where you were sharpening' and 'you ruined your edge due to too high angle stropping'.
> 
> ...



Indeed! It's the old 'fine line between genius and insanity' thing. Obviously it's mostly just a matter of practice, and finding what you like but for me...


jwthaparc said:


> My typical progression for a knife in fairly poor condition is as follows. 60grit Sic, king 300, shapton 1000, then either I go on to a natural, or my king 4000, or kitayama 8000.
> 
> My goal with this progression is to repair damage with the 60 grit (which usually doesn't take long) It's so coarse I dont even feel a proper burr with it. Then I'm going on to my 300, then I keep going until I can't see any deep scratches on either side. I by then I usually have a decent sized burr. Then I do a couple stropping strokes to reduce it a bit. Moving on to the 1000 i repeat, just making sure all the scratches from the previous stone are gone, not so much worried about removing any burr at this point. After this I go onto my finishing stone. Whatever it is, I get rid of the previous grits scratches, then finally I start to really try to remove the burr doing as many strokes as I find necessary. After this I go on to a strop with either green compound, or .5 micron diamond emulsion to really be sure any burr is gone.
> 
> That's the thinking behind my whole progression. The whole process usually takes me about 5 to 10 minutes a knife.



Do you go that high on knives you're sharpening professionally for other people, or is this for your own? When I'm sharpening for other 'non-knife-geek' people I'd rarely go past 1.2k...


----------



## big_adventure (May 12, 2021)

Non-knife-geeks get Chosera 1K (after SG220 and/or Chosera 400 if needed for desperate cases) and stropped on denim.

My knives either finish on Chosera 3k or Debado 6K, depending on their own personal... idiom.


----------



## Grayswandir (May 12, 2021)

mpier said:


> I would agree with just about everything said here, practice all the techniques you can and add them to your arsenal. There are so many different shapes and sizes of knives and steels used that having all the techniques at your disposal can only help.
> 
> On another note you can cut a piece of paper with ease and still not cut a tomato



I didn't realize that. My knives cut tomatoes with razor precision.


----------



## Grayswandir (May 12, 2021)

stringer said:


> If you consider a 200 grit edge sufficient for kitchen work. Then cleanly cutting paper is a sufficient test of sharpness. (Sorry about the vacuum noise, if that wasn't there you could probably hear me remove the burr).




No I don't, but that knife barely cuts paper. I think it's pretty evident that when a knife is sharp enough, it cuts through paper very cleanly. It's not a hill I'm trying to die on or anything, but if you inspected the edge of the paper that was cut in that video, you'd find a very jagged, ragged edge.


----------



## stringer (May 12, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> No I don't, but that knife barely cuts paper. I think it's pretty evident that when a knife is sharp enough, it cuts through paper very cleanly. It's not a hill I'm trying to die on or anything, but if you inspected the edge of the paper that was cut in that video, you'd find a very jagged edge.



I apologize. That sounded more flippant than I meant. Paper cutting is fine as an evaluation tool. My point is just that it's a very low hurdle to jump.


----------



## Luftmensch (May 12, 2021)

ian said:


> Well, ok, but you're still trying to hit the edge, no? Raising a subtle burr is a good way to verify that you're not just polishing the shoulder of the previous bevel. If it's a big initial bevel, you can feel when you're polishing it correctly, but sometimes with really small bevels it's hard to distinguish by feel whether you're hitting the bevel or the shoulder.



I did say:



Luftmensch said:


> In an ideal situation,





Luftmensch said:


> Theoretically





I was attempting to raise a theoretical reason for why raising a burr _once_ may be better than doing it multiple times (on each subsequent stone). I'll maintain that in a purely theoretical scenario, you only need to raise a burr once. After properly apexing a knife, there is no need to do it again. Instead, using your perfect robot arms, you can refine the scratch pattern on the bevel as you progress up the grits. While I dont see any theoretical _need_ to form a burr on every stone, that does not mean there are no other advantages. Like you say, it may be a productive diagnostic tool.

My preference is to avoid burrs. But I'll issue a caveat. My experience is narrow. Unlike people who sharpen knives as a service, I only sharpen _my_ knives. I have been using high-hardness carbons and wear-resistant steels for a long while now. It has been a decade since I used low-hardness stainless steel. I would likely be mediocre at sharpening these. So I am aware my observations are biased by this experience - I guess I should be transparent with anyone reading my posts.

Caveat aside, chasing a burr is not necessarily one of my objectives. I have not read into the material science of burrs but surely burrs are plastic deformation of the steel? If that is occuring you are creating fatigued steel right at the apex. If you have a big, flappy burr, you will have to tear it off somehow. An alternative approach is to keep the honing stresses low (below the yield point of the steel?). Ensure you are in a pressure regime where abrasion is the dominant force and not shear forces stretching/pulling the surface material. This will minimise the size of the burr. The trade-off is you spend more time on the stones (with less pressure). So far this is my experience with light edge leading strokes. Unless I am bevel setting to remove chips or other thinning events, I do not find burrs strictly necessary. If I had to choose a grit, it might say that I ignore burrs above 1K?




ian said:


> Maybe I should try doing that more often. I use the three finger test, but mostly toward the end of the session to check on burr removal rather than earlier on. A burr is stupid easy to feel and verify, though, which makes it attractive...



My control theory sucks... but it is mediocre enough to acknowledge the utility of closed loop control .

I'll freely admit that fairly early on, my finger sensing precision breaks down into: "better", "about the same" or "worse". At 4K and above... I might only be looking to see the blade feels uniformly sharp and that I haven't made it worse. Regrettably, this means I am operating on faith at higher grits - I dont have magic fingers that can tell the difference between an 8K and 20K edge. On the other hand... I find 4K to be a good practical limit for kitchen knives so I dont have a huge incentive to go any further


----------



## Luftmensch (May 12, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> Would you consider the paper test to be an accurate way to measure sharpness vs. the 3 finger test? If the blade cuts through paper cleanly, you should be good to go, no? You can also test every area of the edge, from heel to tip, using paper.



Yes/No....

You are right. It is good at testing uniformity. You can detect burrs or dull spots. But I have to agree with @stringer:



stringer said:


> it's a very low hurdle to jump.



Fortunately that might not matter. At that level of sharpness you are probably sharper than the overwhelming majority of kitchens. It is also a perfectly serviceable edge.

But you can do these tests in tandem... right?? Feel the edge with your fingers - then cut some paper. Correlate the results.... Do it for a dull edge. Do it for a screaming edge. Do it for an edge with a burr. Eventually you will have pretty good idea of how the feel of an edge will perform. At that point you don't really need to cut through paper. But that doesnt mean it stops being fun


----------



## toddnmd (May 12, 2021)

JBroida said:


> I've found much easier and more consistently effective ways to remove burrs.



Please share! Any videos available for some of us mere mortal sharpeners?


----------



## WaTFTanaki (May 12, 2021)

Soooo. I messed around with edge leading strokes on my SG1k and being a total novice got strikingly good results after 1k and then made a total butchery of the edge on 3k. It was fun to use a different technique and the Kippington video was inspiring. It’s fun. Not ready to abandon edge trailing for my favorites anytime soon but it’s fun to experiment and will keep messing up my Hattori in the meantime until I develop a higher sharpness/butchery edge ratio.

For sharpness metrics I have not been a fan of paper slicing. I have been defaulting to see how easily diff parts of the edge fall through banana skin or oranges under knife weight to see where more work needs to be done (Murray Carter vid). Arm shaving also. I don’t get anything info wise out of the fingernail grip or three finger test, personally.


----------



## stringer (May 12, 2021)

Also try cutting a circle in paper or changing directions doing waves and curlicues for a little extra challenge. It will tell you if you have a nice keen edge. But it won't say anything about whether that edge will last. 



Or do the standing receipt paper challenge









Receipt paper because why not







youtube.com


----------



## Grayswandir (May 12, 2021)

stringer said:


> I apologize. That sounded more flippant than I meant. Paper cutting is fine as an evaluation tool. My point is just that it's a very low hurdle to jump.



No worries man. It is a low hurdle to jump, and I'm sure there are better methods to evaluate a blade's sharpness. I have neuropathy in my hands and fingers, so Murry Carter's way of checking a blade for sharpness is less effective for me. I've tried it a few times recently, and I just don't have enough sensitivity left in my fingertips to trust what I'm feeling.

P.S.,

I like the arm shaving test, that's always fun! When I go shopping and notice people give me strange looks, I realize that it's my hairless right arm that's drawing all the attention to me!


----------



## ian (May 12, 2021)

I find paper towel a lot more useful than copy paper, personally. Plus, it's right there in the kitchen.


----------



## Hanmak17 (May 12, 2021)

stringer said:


> Also try cutting a circle in paper or changing directions doing waves and curlicues for a little extra challenge. It will tell you if you have a nice keen edge.



Looks like a great way to remove a finger tip....

At a certain point, doesn't all of this become a bit of a navel gazing exercise? Seems to me, razor sharp is a bit of a waste, as the best edge is a durable edge. 

Keeping the geometry behind the edge thin and consistent, with a slightly lower edge angle has proven to be best bet for me. These knives we buy are very hard and very expensive. I rarely have to sharpen my knifes any more, which means I am preserving them.


----------



## ian (May 12, 2021)

Hanmak17 said:


> At a certain point, doesn't all of this become a bit of a navel gazing exercise? Seems to me, razor sharp is a bit of a waste, as the best edge is a durable edge.



The point of all these tests is mostly to check for consistency in the edge and the presence of any remaining burr. That's useful info.


----------



## captaincaed (May 12, 2021)

One thing I do is drag or tap my edge on the board under the weight of the knife, then try to cut paper. That's the real test of deburred-or-not. 

I hear cries of "oh no, why did you do that to your brand new edge?!?" Well, because when I start cooking, that's the next thing I'm going to do. I care about the edge that survives board contact, and no other.


----------



## jwthaparc (May 12, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Indeed! It's the old 'fine line between genius and insanity' thing. Obviously it's mostly just a matter of practice, and finding what you like but for me...
> 
> 
> Do you go that high on knives you're sharpening professionally for other people, or is this for your own? When I'm sharpening for other 'non-knife-geek' people I'd rarely go past 1.2k...


For mine I stay fairly low grit honestly. Unless it's a bad kitchen knife in sharpening for someone I usually finish those on my aoto. I go that high for people's pocket knives. usually they like it to have that ability to glide through hairs, even though I personally realize how unnecessary it is. That, and they look at the edge and think "oooh shiny"

I've found that I have to actually explain the benefits if a toothy edge, and it's easier just to go full on polished than explain it to them.


----------



## JBroida (May 12, 2021)

toddnmd said:


> Please share! Any videos available for some of us mere mortal sharpeners?


if you email me, I've got a whole thing typed up about the process. Its nothing too fancy or complicated though.


----------



## cotedupy (May 12, 2021)

jwthaparc said:


> For mine I stay fairly low grit honestly. Unless it's a bad kitchen knife in sharpening for someone I usually finish those on my aoto. I go that high for people's pocket knives. usually they like it to have that ability to glide through hairs, even though I personally realize how unnecessary it is. That, and they look at the edge and think "oooh shiny"
> 
> I've found that I have to actually explain the benefits if a toothy edge, and it's easier just to go full on polished than explain it to them.



Ah I hadn't even thought about pocket knives, probably because I can't sharpen them for love nor money so just leave mine getting blunter and blunter.

And I guess if someone is using a pocket knife for wood then you probably do want quite a fine high grit edge. I sharpened a Japanese chisel for the first time the other day; it was ok off a suehiro 3k with an edge that would've been great on a kitchen knife, but a few stokes refining on a slate and the thing was amazing.


----------



## branwell (May 13, 2021)

captaincaed said:


> One thing I do is drag or tap my edge on the board under the weight of the knife, then try to cut paper. That's the real test of deburred-or-not.
> 
> I hear cries of "oh no, why did you do that to your brand new edge?!?" Well, because when I start cooking, that's the next thing I'm going to do. I care about the edge that survives board contact, and no other.



If the edge dulls noticeably from a drag across a board, it had a burr or wire edge I'd wager.


----------



## jwthaparc (May 13, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> Ah I hadn't even thought about pocket knives, probably because I can't sharpen them for love nor money so just leave mine getting blunter and blunter.
> 
> And I guess if someone is using a pocket knife for wood then you probably do want quite a fine high grit edge. I sharpened a Japanese chisel for the first time the other day; it was ok off a suehiro 3k with an edge that would've been great on a kitchen knife, but a few stokes refining on a slate and the thing was amazing.


I doubt these people are using them for wood. They just generally base their idea of sharpness on it being able to cleanly shave. If I give them a toothy edge, that shaves, but takes just a little more effort they aren't as happy. Say off my coarse dmt (which is a good all around edge even though it's about 325 grit)


----------



## Pie (May 13, 2021)

WaTFTanaki said:


> Soooo. I messed around with edge leading strokes on my SG1k and being a total novice got strikingly good results after 1k and then made a total butchery of the edge on 3k. It was fun to use a different technique and the Kippington video was inspiring. It’s fun. Not ready to abandon edge trailing for my favorites anytime soon but it’s fun to experiment and will keep messing up my Hattori in the meantime until I develop a higher sharpness/butchery edge ratio.
> 
> For sharpness metrics I have not been a fan of paper slicing. I have been defaulting to see how easily diff parts of the edge fall through banana skin or oranges under knife weight to see where more work needs to be done (Murray Carter vid). Arm shaving also. I don’t get anything info wise out of the fingernail grip or three finger test, personally.


This mirrors my experience - 1k gets to 7/10 sharpness (on my scale) and if I redo the progression on 3k it ends up as 5/10. Haven’t gone over 3k recently, the old 10/10 reached was with unreasonable amounts of polishing on 12k.

I DID find, however, I’m not sure where I read/saw this, but only repeating the final motion used on the 1k with the 3k - edge trailing stropping, say counting down from 5 stokes a side to a handful of alternating strokes produced the sharpest edge I have obtained to date. Is it properly deburred? Probably not.

I too am searching for an objective sharpness testing method, but have resorted to slicing off a thin bit of skin from my finger (I, for some reason, don’t have any arm air to speak of) with my OOTB edge denka and comparing ease of skin removal to the freshly sharpened knife. Happy to say last nights attempt provided similar if not slightly better results!


----------



## jwthaparc (May 13, 2021)

Pie said:


> This mirrors my experience - 1k gets to 7/10 sharpness (on my scale) and if I redo the progression on 3k it ends up as 5/10. Haven’t gone over 3k recently, the old 10/10 reached was with unreasonable amounts of polishing on 12k.
> 
> I DID find, however, I’m not sure where I read/saw this, but only repeating the final motion used on the 1k with the 3k - edge trailing stropping, say counting down from 5 stokes a side to a handful of alternating strokes produced the sharpest edge I have obtained to date. Is it properly deburred? Probably not.
> 
> I too am searching for an objective sharpness testing method, but have resorted to slicing off a thin bit of skin from my finger (I, for some reason, don’t have any arm air to speak of) with my OOTB edge denka and comparing ease of skin removal to the freshly sharpened knife. Happy to say last nights attempt provided similar if not slightly better results!


You know. I used to get some good results doing the countdown method. I should start doing that again on whatever I'm finishing on.


----------



## captaincaed (May 13, 2021)

branwell said:


> If the edge dulls noticeably from a drag across a board, it had a burr or wire edge I'd wager.


Yeah this is my poor man's test for one


----------



## Benuser (Oct 2, 2021)

Grayswandir said:


> I was speaking more to sharpness in general, but I imagine a half deburred knife edge wouldn't cut very well, or would it?


in fact, it may cut reasonably well, but not for long. Full deburring is essential for a good edge retention. A special case is the wire edge, where the burr is exactly on top of the apex. Very sharp, very thin, and very weak. It will break after some board contact, leaving a damaged edge behind. Or even worse, fold over the edge and make it perfectly dull.
A good fat burr along the edge may cause unexpected steering.


----------

