# Japanese knives used to sculpt ice?



## Korin_Mari (Sep 19, 2013)

I had a customer the other day that purchased stain resistant traditional Japanese knives and when I asked what she does, she told me that she is a bartender... She apparently carves ice with the knives. Naturally my first thought was "HERESY!" Especially after all of these years of being told "Mari don't use knives to cut frozen things!" 

I looked it up and told this:
http://www.starchefs.com/events/studio/techniques/takaaki-hashimoto/html/index.shtml












Now my main question is... What happens if the knife chips, get stuck to the ice and no one notices... Someone dies? Also is this new? Is this allowed?


----------



## GlassEye (Sep 19, 2013)

HERESY!!


----------



## mkriggen (Sep 19, 2013)

Dude, the video in the link is even more disturbing then the pictures in the post:scared4:


----------



## EdipisReks (Sep 19, 2013)

[video=youtube;cDGlN6mluGA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDGlN6mluGA[/video]


----------



## Baby Huey (Sep 19, 2013)

Hmmm lol


----------



## Slypig5000 (Sep 19, 2013)

I saw this awhile ago, I can't remember if it was on this forum or somewhere else. Even though this gentleman looks like he knows what he is doing, it still makes me cringe a bit.

[video=youtube;mRlnkyIhbeU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRlnkyIhbeU[/video]


----------



## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

Slypig5000 said:


> I saw this awhile ago, I can't remember if it was on this forum or somewhere else. Even though this gentleman looks like he knows what he is doing, it still makes me cringe a bit.
> 
> [video=youtube;mRlnkyIhbeU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRlnkyIhbeU[/video]



I'm pretty sure there are better tools available to scuplt ice......


----------



## Baby Huey (Sep 19, 2013)

The big boys do it with chainsaws.............


----------



## 77kath (Sep 19, 2013)

Blowtorches?


----------



## harlock0083 (Sep 19, 2013)

Baby Huey said:


> The big boys do it with chainsaws.............



I don't think the customers would like the smell of gas in their drinks or the taste of chainsaw lubricant.


----------



## Ruso (Sep 19, 2013)

I do not see where the problem is.


----------



## ecchef (Sep 19, 2013)

I would die of thirst waiting for my drink to arrive.


----------



## EdipisReks (Sep 19, 2013)

Ruso said:


> I do not see where the problem is.



it ruins spiffy knives.


----------



## Pensacola Tiger (Sep 19, 2013)

I've always seen ice sculptors use chisels. Seems to me that you'd have much better control with a chisel.


----------



## cheezit (Sep 19, 2013)

I don't see where the issue is either...


----------



## Squilliam (Sep 19, 2013)

cheezit said:


> I don't see where the issue is either...



Because we own similar knives and would never do anything remotely as risky/destructive as this.


----------



## apicius9 (Sep 19, 2013)

Where is Keith when you need him, he did this for a living and competed in ice carving. 

Stefan


----------



## EdipisReks (Sep 19, 2013)

Pensacola Tiger said:


> I've always seen ice sculptors use chisels. Seems to me that you'd have much better control with a chisel.



That's what I've always seen, too. The chisels might be a bit weird for doing this at the bar, but it also seems to me that molding the ice cubes would be a lot easier, and there are ways of molding ice and retaining clarity.


----------



## Ruso (Sep 19, 2013)

Ice sculptors and bartenders are quite different in my opinion. I honestly do not see how a bartender will use a chisel or a chainsaw to create a nice cube of ice in a hurry. If this is a tool that suites their needs, what is the issue? It does not appear to me that this market is big enough to have variety of special tools. As long as they do not complaint to the vendor why the knifes are chipped all is "kosher" imho.


----------



## EdipisReks (Sep 19, 2013)

Ruso said:


> Ice sculptors and bartenders are quite different in my opinion. I honestly do not see how a bartender will use a chisel or a chainsaw to create a nice cube of ice in a hurry. If this is a tool that suites their needs, what is the issue? It does not appear to me that this market is big enough to have variety of special tools. As long as they do not complaint to the vendor why the knifes are chipped all is "kosher" imho.



you know that this is a knife junkie forum, right?


----------



## Ruso (Sep 19, 2013)

Senseless


----------



## EdipisReks (Sep 19, 2013)

duh, this is the internet.


----------



## NO ChoP! (Sep 19, 2013)

The exec chef at my club is a very accomplished competitor. He has a kit of specialty tools actually made by Misono.


----------



## cheezit (Sep 19, 2013)

Squilliam said:


> Because we own similar knives and would never do anything remotely as risky/destructive as this.



If I needed to create an ice cube, I would do this with my knives. Any damage that ice would cause can surely be fixed.


----------



## EdipisReks (Sep 19, 2013)

NO ChoP! said:


> The exec chef at my club is a very accomplished competitor. He has a kit of specialty tools actually made by Misono.



that doesn't surprise me. i'd like to see pics of the gear.


----------



## mc2442 (Sep 20, 2013)

A cocktail glass of ice would be friggin cool!


----------



## Squilliam (Sep 20, 2013)

cheezit said:


> If I needed to create an ice cube, I would do this with my knives. Any damage that ice would cause can surely be fixed.



Seeing as ice is significantly harder than the majority of food you cut, then a knife which will stand up to cutting ice would be significantly thicker than it should be for food, and thus will be under performing. A high performing knife could easily sustain significant damage behind the edge cutting ice, which may require 1-2mm of steel to be ground off to be fully repaired.

The takohiki(?) used in the video should have quite an acute bevel, and the steel is balanced more towards hardness than toughness. It is a knife designed to provide the maximum possible performance in the tasks it is designed for, and to see it used in this way, no doubt with altered geometry is near sacrilege.

You may disagree but I am explaining why some people here are shocked to see a knife like that used in this way.


----------



## Korin_Mari (Sep 20, 2013)

NO ChoP! said:


> The exec chef at my club is a very accomplished competitor. He has a kit of specialty tools actually made by Misono.



Oh thats awesome! I didn't know Misono made such things.


----------



## Korin_Mari (Sep 20, 2013)

Squilliam said:


> Seeing as ice is significantly harder than the majority of food you cut, then a knife which will stand up to cutting ice would be significantly thicker than it should be for food, and thus will be under performing. A high performing knife could easily sustain significant damage behind the edge cutting ice, which may require 1-2mm of steel to be ground off to be fully repaired.
> 
> The takohiki(?) used in the video should have quite an acute bevel, and the steel is balanced more towards hardness than toughness. It is a knife designed to provide the maximum possible performance in the tasks it is designed for, and to see it used in this way, no doubt with altered geometry is near sacrilege.
> 
> You may disagree but I am explaining why some people here are shocked to see a knife like that used in this way.



Seeing regular Western knives doesn't concern me as much as the traditional Japanese knives. They chip so easily that I also can't help but worry about what would happen if a little piece of the knife chipped into the ice and someone drank it. Probably hasn't happened, but still makes me nervous.


----------



## Korin_Mari (Sep 20, 2013)

mc2442 said:


> A cocktail glass of ice would be friggin cool!



They have shot glasses made out of ice! It slides everywhere, but its cool. 

... No pun intended.


----------



## Korin_Mari (Sep 20, 2013)

Slypig5000 said:


> I saw this awhile ago, I can't remember if it was on this forum or somewhere else. Even though this gentleman looks like he knows what he is doing, it still makes me cringe a bit.
> 
> [video=youtube;mRlnkyIhbeU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRlnkyIhbeU[/video]



WOW. I've never seen a menkiri knife used that way.


----------



## Sambal (Sep 23, 2013)

Korin_Mari said:


> Seeing regular Western knives doesn't concern me as much as the traditional Japanese knives. They chip so easily that I also can't help but worry about what would happen if a little piece of the knife chipped into the ice and someone drank it. Probably hasn't happened, but still makes me nervous.



Yes, but presumably they wouldn't have iron deficiency though!


----------



## Zwiefel (Sep 23, 2013)

OMG. 

so senseless.

What a waste of a good tool.

Kinda hard to believe.

A good Tako and deba being ruined...

On a cheap @$$ plastic cutting board. Dude, end-grain is where it's at. Or at least some kind of grain.


----------



## Slypig5000 (Sep 23, 2013)

Zwiefel said:


> OMG.
> 
> so senseless.
> 
> ...



haha, laughed at this one.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Sep 23, 2013)

Well I guess I will chime in.I used chainsaws to block & Japan Ice chisels(the sharper the better)Very sharp chisels shave ice well.

Went to the world Ice carving championships in Hokaido twice.The second year they put the 3 time world champions in with the international carvers(Us) their stage was right next to ours.They made a Warrior on horseback in full armor.It was freezing & snowing during the 48 hours time limit.2 man teams.All the chisel facets were part of the artwork as they did not melt away it was so cold.20-300# blocks of Ice. for each team.

When they carved the Warriors Katana they carved in the details of the sword with a straight razor.

Carving small objects like ice for drinks is not easy.If I were doing that would want the sharpest blade possible.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Sep 23, 2013)

Also mention first year went to Japan bought some really nice forged carbon steel Ice chisels.Kept them razor sharp just like my carbon Gyuto's & Yanagi's. Carved 1,000's of Ice Carvings over the years with those fine chisels.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Sep 27, 2013)

This was the 3 time world champions Warrior on horse.The bow & swords were carver wt. a straight razor as the thiness demanded a draw tool.






This is a surfer dropping into a curl I did as part of our Hawaii theme




[

This is a dragon I did for Kahala Hiltons 25 Anniversary. Including base 11 300# blocks


----------



## Ruso (Sep 27, 2013)

Can you make a dragon for me 2? 
Those sculptures looks amazing!


----------



## Korin_Mari (Sep 27, 2013)

OMG thats amazing! I love the dragon!, great job!


----------



## mzer (Sep 27, 2013)

That's awesome, man. When was that? '88 or so?


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Sep 27, 2013)

mzer said:


> That's awesome, man. When was that? '88 or so?



pretty close mzer 25 Kahala 1990 -- Japan 1989-1990


----------



## mengwong (Jun 2, 2022)

Reviving an old thread – I’m just trying to imagine the bevel geometry needed to carve / shave / mill ice this way. バーテンダーしずたにえん on TikTok


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 3, 2022)

Never carved ice with a knife. I would imagine highly assem. more flat backside would work best. No ice carving chisels are double bevel. Flat, curved gouges, V chisels. All single bevel cutting edge.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 3, 2022)

Going back to start of this thread carving ice cubes with single bevels. Since I've purchased those flexible I've cube trays for larger square cubes. Even have one to make a round ball one takes up a whisky glass.


----------



## ethompson (Jun 3, 2022)

mengwong said:


> Reviving an old thread – I’m just trying to imagine the bevel geometry needed to carve / shave / mill ice this way. バーテンダーしずたにえん on TikTok


I make big blocks of ice and carve to order for drinks I make at home. The most important thing for this type of work in my opinion is making sure your ice is properly tempered (let it come up closer to 32* than freezer temp), it'll cut much cleaner and you'll avoid cracking. 

As for geometry, asymmetric and chunky is the name of the game in my opinion. I use a Tojiro DP petty that I let get too thick for pleasant food use for this. It's kept sharp but would wedge in a lime.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 3, 2022)

Carving ice in Hawaii used 300# blocks made at Tuna Packers ice plant. It is old technology early 20th century. Takes quite a bit of electricity to freeze big blocks. Freezing coils outside of blocks wells in the floor. Also lowered coil in middle of blocks to 
freeze from inside it was removed before complete freezing caused white area middle of ice block. Same as blocks in Japan. When Tuna Packers closed in 2000's killed my side business had since early 1970's & ice carving on Oahu. 

Hotel accounts would pull ice blocks from freezers & let them temper. If too cold chainsaw would crack the ice. It was different in Japan where you were carving in freezing temperatures you could carve at outside temperatures. 

The reason even ice cube trays in freezer are cloudy instead of clear is too cold & freezing at different rates. You can buy special ice trays that even out freezing times creating clear ice cubes.


----------



## ethompson (Jun 3, 2022)

Not a solution everyone has access to, but for making clear blocks I stick my cooler into the walk in freezer with the lid open and pull it before the bottom freezes. As Keith mentioned, directional freezing (top down here) leads to crystal clear ice.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 15, 2022)

Thought would try one of those clear ice trays ordered one makes 8 large clear ice cubes. Since only have a man cave refrigerator downstairs put it in freezer there. 

Couple clear cubes next to regular smaller cloudy ice try cube. Johnny Walker Black with Canada Dry sparkling water highball. One clear cube to cool it. The bubbles are in the glass. I like hand blown glass with it's imperfections. 

I guess if your a clear ice nerd they are cool something to impress your drinking buddies.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 15, 2022)

I bought my first hand blown glass pitcher from Jamestown glass house in Virginia over 50 years ago, still have it amazing it has survived this long. Found this set of 4 glasses around 10 years ago the bubbles with green hue at bottom of glass are intentional.


----------



## Keith Sinclair (Jun 18, 2022)

One advantage of larger cubes even one cube really chills a beer to very cold temperature. 

Regular cubes melt faster watering down your IPA. Even long after beer is finished cube is still pretty large.


----------



## mengwong (Jun 18, 2022)

Keith Sinclair said:


> One advantage of larger cubes even one cube really chills a beer to very cold temperature.
> 
> Regular cubes melt faster watering down your IPA. Even long after beer is finished cube is still pretty large.
> View attachment 184876


I love it! Thanks for sharing your experience and the new cubes. I like how the ice is invisible in the drink.

I’m trying to understand the physics though. If the same mass of ice is starting at the same temperature shouldn’t the same amount of unmelted ice remain after the beer is finished, whether it’s a big cube or a bunch of little cubes?

My mental model is that the beer+ice stays at more or less 32F, and the surface area of the ice shouldn’t matter – only the volume. (Well, mass, but if the ice is clear then we know it’s the same density either way.)

Counterintuitively we might find the beer to be slightly warmer with the big cube / sphere because less surface area in contact! Maybe that’s why they last longer? The beer insulates the ice more that way.

We might need a 9th grader with a science fair coming up to help with this, I think…


----------

