# Stone progressions and burrs



## Twotimehojo (Feb 24, 2021)

So with my newly double thick SG500 and atoma 140 I went to work with P3 pressure (most) on my global santoku. And within minutes, got myself a very obvious burr. Flipped and got one on the other side. I was very stoked! Then flipped with reduced pressure (P2) and by the time I was at P1, I barely felt a burr. I then proceeded to go to my next stone, a Cerax 1000. And then a Rika 5000.

So a few questions to get me to move to the next level. 

I felt lost burr wise after the SG500. I reduced it enough that by the time I got to Cerax 1000, I felt not sure what to do with respect to length of time on stone and pressure on Cerax 1000. Start at P3 pressure and do passes down to P2 and P1? 

Do you all feel a burr until the very last stone??!! Will one of my AS or carbon knives help with the learning curve? I have been avoiding my good carbon knives so far but feel I am almost ready.

The knife was visibly sharper after I was done. Difference with newspaper was significant. Definitely getting the hang of this!

Thanks!


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## madmotts (Feb 24, 2021)

I don’t feel it on 5k rika, but when I deburr on cardboard I feel it. Maybe up to 2k-3k by feel?

I read some folks with lots of experience talking about not getting to burr since were technically creating an apex and when we create a burr it’s gone too far. That sounds like some Jedi sh!t tho.


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## Twotimehojo (Feb 24, 2021)

I guess that is part of my question. I create a burr on my SG500 and then after that, I am lowering the pressure to deburr on that one side. Or am I still creating a burr on each side as I move to P2 and P1 pressure. I imagine I am still creating a new burr on each side as I progress through each pressure but the burr is just smaller. But then it becomes so small, I cannot feel it it. 

So do the jedi's continually great new burrs, but smaller, as the stones and pressure progresses and decreases respectively?


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## JakeLoveshighCarbon (Feb 24, 2021)

I'm no master, but I raise the burr on my initial edge especially with an unfamiliar knife. I usually dont start lower than 1k, and with my personal knives, I often start even finer. 

If I'm just touching up a fine edge, I will not raise a burr. So my gut feeling is that burr raising should stop around 1-2k and just focus on feel and polishing. (Please jump in here experts if that isnt a good idea.) I get a lot of, I dont know what to call them, micro burrs maybe and a couple strops on leather shorts those out. Theyre just a slight ridge that I feel where edge isnt completely straight. With different steels that doesnt always work though. I've been playing around with ark stones in those situations. Anyway, maybe some other folks do this, but I'll deal with burr/microburr after 1k or so with the ark/strop and transition to my finishing stone around 4-8k. There should be no burrs around by then.

Just my 2 cents. I'm far from good at this.


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## ian (Feb 24, 2021)

All the heavy pressure I use is on the coarsest stone. After that, you don’t need it. (Edit: I do use moderate pressure on the subsequent stones for speed.) I do usually feel a very slight burr all the way to the end, but on a higher grit stone it’s more something you feel as you use the stone rather than something you feel with your fingers on the side of the knife. (The three finger test is pretty good for subtle burrs though.) I also usually do a compound bevel, raising the angle a bit with each stone after polishing the previous bevel briefly.

I also think three stone progressions are often overkill for kitchen knife edges, especially if you’re raising the sharpening angle with the last stone. Glass 500 -> Rika probably works fine. Then again, the SG 500 -> Gesshin 2k -> Rika -> Aizu -> Suita -> 10k natural finisher psychopaths will disagree with me.

“Oh believe me, my good fellow, without the drop from a high grit synthetic to a middle grit natural, my edge would have that pedestrian feeling with which I am sure you are well acquainted. It is only with this progression that I am able to produce the most divinely refined, yet toothy, edges.”


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## madmotts (Feb 24, 2021)

Yeah as you go up in grit it should be less burry. here's my basic game plan applied to 1k,2/3k,5k

1. sharpen each side with moderate pressure 2 to 4 times per finger length (initial pass.) i'm feeling for burr and edge sharpness. Sometimes another pass on each side. it's better to go too light than too heavy. I did some heavy pressure and it creates some unevenness. 

2. then half that pressure on each side same as step 1. Sometimes i feel or see fine threads of metal, which are the burr coming off. A year or so ago, i'd see a lot more of this- over doing it. I'm not feeling too much of burr after this.

3. Then do some super light ones to semi deburr this is pretty fast and loose. At this point all but the finest burr should be gone.

4. Then i do my cardboard thing edge trailing. Some folks do cork, wood. On the first couple passes, i'll feel some kind of slight scratchiness- this is whatever is left of the microburr. After a few more passes, it'll feel smooth. i'm good. I don't know if everyone does this after every stone, but it works for me.

I'm certainly not a master and more towards the other end, but my 1k is now really sharp, night and day from where i was last year. Remember the sharpie, if you're second guessing yourself

I'm sure we'll get some input from bad ass sharpeners.


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## M1k3 (Feb 24, 2021)

ian said:


> All the heavy pressure I use is on the coarsest stone. After that, you don’t need it. I do usually feel a very slight burr all the way to the end, but on a higher grit stone it’s more something you feel as you use the stone rather than something you feel with your fingers on the side of the knife. (The three finger test is pretty good for subtle burrs though.) I also usually do a compound bevel, raising the angle a bit with each stone after polishing the previous bevel briefly.
> 
> I also think three stone progressions are often overkill for kitchen knife edges, especially if you’re raising the sharpening angle with the last stone. Glass 500 -> Rika probably works fine. Then again, the SG 500 -> Gesshin 2k -> Rika -> Aizu -> Suita -> 10k natural finisher psychopaths will disagree with me.
> 
> “Oh believe me, my good fellow, without the drop from a high grit synthetic to a middle grit natural, my edge would have that pedestrian feeling with which I am sure you are well acquainted. It is only with this progression that I am able to produce the most divinely refined, yet toothy, edges.”


I recently tried SP 120 -> 10k. The edge felt divinely heavenly in use.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 24, 2021)

Not a badass sharpener.

I don't stress the pressure deal too much. P3 and all that. My advice? Find something comfortable and easy and raise a burr. Yes, you might need a little more time and pressure in spots but just let the knife and your hands tell you that. Let it be more natural. Get a burr on both sides, deburr, and then lighter pressure and repeat. Do that two or three times getting lighter each time but do not sacrifice stability in the name of light (or heavy in the beginning) pressure.

Angle reigns supreme.

I raise a burr on all my grits and you should definitely be able to detect one off 1k. The burr tells you are apexed and have done your job. Then it is just about burr weakening and removal until the next stone.

I have _very_ limited experience above around 2-3k so can't say there.

Also, don't underestimate the value of good light and looking at the edge for reflections. A loupe is helpful too.


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## Benuser (Feb 24, 2021)

A few remarks.
Not sure whether this pressure approach makes much sense in general. 
I do apply some pressure on the first strokes on the coarsest stone, when I want to remove a bit of steel. 
For deburring, even on the coarsest stone, I apply the lightest pressure. I want to abrade it. Not to push it to the other side and have it only flip. 
Once the bevels have met, and they did, as there was an obvious burr, I don't have to do any effort to appear again on finer stones. If I don't apply much pressure it's no new burr. These are remnants from the old one created on the coarse stone. 
Now a warning. Stone sharpening of a Global can be quite tricky. Burrs are hard to get, hard to get rid of, reappear after a while, as if there is some plasticity in the steel. Has all to do with the purposely large carbides.
An extra reason to be very cautious with pressure. I wouldn't be surprised if the burr with the first stone had appeared before the bevels actually met. Only way to make sure: use marker and a loupe.


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## M1k3 (Feb 24, 2021)

I just use 2 pressures mostly. Heavier amount, like P2/P3 on the Nowlan scale? for burr formation and thinning, and just enough to keep the blade steady afterwards.


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## mikemac (Feb 25, 2021)

Just sharpened two different knives - 500 -> 1200 -> 5k. I could feel the burr on every stone, BUT at 5k the burr is really small and I had to really work at 'feeling' it.. YMMV


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## branwell (Feb 25, 2021)

When you all talk about pressure and P numbers, what is your point of reference? Like is P1 1lb, or 5lb, 10lb?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 25, 2021)

branwell said:


> When you all talk about pressure and P numbers, what is your point of reference? Like is P1 1lb, or 5lb, 10lb?



I believe it comes from Peter Nowlan on YouTube. If I remember right, he has four pressure "ratings". P4 might be 6lbs I think???


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## Twotimehojo (Feb 25, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Not a badass sharpener.
> 
> I raise a burr on all my grits and you should definitely be able to detect one off 1k. The burr tells you are apexed and have done your job. Then it is just about burr weakening and removal until the next stone.
> 
> ...



Just to clarify. After you do burr weakening and removal on the first (coarser) stone, you are NOT raising a burr on the second less coarse stone? I guess thats where all the videos seem to gloss over or I am not listening well enough. Essentially I could use higher pressure on second stone and increase the burr, but thats not what I should do?

This global had some rough edges. So the SG500 made quick nice work. I am going to try and raise a burr on the 1k today and then deburr. The knife is sharp in cutting apples. The newspaper not so much. I am sure I have a toothy but relatively sharp edge.


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## Twotimehojo (Feb 25, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> I believe it comes from Peter Nowlan on YouTube. If I remember right, he has four pressure "ratings". P4 might be 6lbs I think???



I think he refers to 4 pressures. P4 is the highest. On the second stone, he uses only 3 pressures. And Peter refers to the second stone as refining the edge or polishing it. Not deburring it.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 25, 2021)

Twotimehojo said:


> Just to clarify. After you do burr weakening and removal on the first (coarser) stone, you are NOT raising a burr on the second less coarse stone? I guess thats where all the videos seem to gloss over or I am not listening well enough. Essentially I could use higher pressure on second stone and increase the burr, but thats not what I should do?
> 
> This global had some rough edges. So the SG500 made quick nice work. I am going to try and raise a burr on the 1k today and then deburr. The knife is sharp in cutting apples. The newspaper not so much. I am sure I have a toothy but relatively sharp edge.



I raise a burr on *every *stone. Course or fine. I've never bought into, or at least personally found success in, not forming a burr on finer grits. Now, as others said, the finer the stone the finer the burr and I may well not use the same hard pressure I did in the beginning of the courser stone but I still strive to raise one. This is why I prefer a more natural approach.

If we're talking a really dull and dropping down into the 300ish range, you're going to be using more pressure and raising a very obvious burr. But, if it just needs some maintenance and you're starting at say 1000ish, you won't need so much pressure an the burr will naturally be finer.

Again, once you get into the more polishing grits, I don't have the experience there to say.


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## Twotimehojo (Feb 25, 2021)

Do you all look at the reflections on the edge to see if you are truly deburred? The edge should seem matte or dull. No shiny bits of light coming back at me?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 25, 2021)

Twotimehojo said:


> I think he refers to 4 pressures. P4 is the highest. On the second stone, he uses only 3 pressures. And Peter refers to the second stone as refining the edge or polishing it. Not deburring it.



There are a ton of approaches to sharpening and most of them work. But not all of them work for each individual. That's why there is a ton of approaches. Learn the fundamentals, soak in knowledge from broad sources, and experiment to find what works for you.

Don't try to force a single style or approach.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 25, 2021)

Twotimehojo said:


> Do you all look at the reflections on the edge to see if you are truly deburred? The edge should seem matte or dull. No shiny bits of light coming back at me?



Look at your knife in all stages. Really look it over when you start and note what you see. Look down the edge and at each side and roll it around in the light. Is that lint or a slight roll or burr remnant? And so on.

Then raise a burr on one side and look at it again. What does that look like from all directions?

What does it look like after the first stone? The second? Stropping? That's how you'll learn. I'm still a very tactile person for sharpening but your eyes detect a lot and will not lie to you.


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## KingShapton (Feb 25, 2021)

I myself worked with the 4 different pressure levels for a long time and it worked very well for me.

Meanwhile, the more I get used to what I call "Zen Sharpening", the more I work with as little pressure as possible. But I have to say, it doesn't happen consciously, it just happens. At a certain point i forget everything, including the pressure exerted, and just let the stone do its job.

It sounds a little strange, but it works. And my results are better than ever.


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## KingShapton (Feb 25, 2021)

One more thought about the burrformatin - when you reach the apex, a burr is created. It doesn't matter whether it is a "normal size" or a "micro-burr", it is and remains a burr that has to be removed.


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## ModRQC (Feb 25, 2021)

I'd use a bit of @ian and @KingShapton while keeping @Benuser in mind.

Seriously, I think IF you can't feel the burr progression on the stones, then you have a problem in going to finer stones in how much time you can actually lose "chasing" a burr or deburring something you won't feel with your fingers anyway.

Remedy to this is to accept to work blindly with it. Just do as if you could feel it. The pressure level technique works for this - doing what was done on the last stone with less pressure. At some point, it will become very obvious to you, on any stone, what's happening with the burr by how the knife feels/sounds on the stone.

Then only you'll find your bearings in how you can actually cut down on useless steps/pressure levels, or do it purely feeling-based.


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## DavidPF (Feb 25, 2021)

In general, in KKF discussions, it sounds to me like "micro" just means "pretty small", not anything like "impossible to see". Is that mostly right?


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## ModRQC (Feb 25, 2021)

Don't know what you're referring to exactly but this thread is about burrs, and "pretty small" doesn't even apply to a burr out of the coarse stones, let alone one at the finer grit ranges. Micro does however - when you have "microns" in mind. A 5000 grit edge with a clinging burr *might* not register well with direct light verification. @Benuser will advocate for a 10x loupe to start see something about it. So yes, basically you're talking about something that not only is impossible to see directly or with conventional magnifiers, but also something that won't register with your fingertip. Unless you slice it - that will register alright.


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## rmrf (Feb 26, 2021)

A human hair is ~30 microns. I would argue your eyes can resolve sub micron because you can tell between a mirror finish and a matte finish 

I think I read somewhere that your fingers can resolve patterns on the 10nm scale. I think 10 nm depth and like 100 nm wide patterns are distinguishable. So, I would guess that this "micro bevel" is actually below 0.1 microns. I bet someone has measured this... On another note, if your microbevel is less than 600 nm, you probably can't see it. So, I'd bet that micro-bevels you can feel but not see are submicrobevels


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## ModRQC (Feb 26, 2021)

Light reflection makes such small scale stuff readily seen - hence why the direct light method is still a good method. However catching a hair same color as its background will be much more difficult. Up to a point direct light works, then well not so easily as it may blend with what your eye catches of the bevel itself. As for finger touch, when your burr aligns well with the apex, it takes experience to sense it with a finger. Same as a hair - it may register, but may not. With finer stones I really advocate for getting to learn the feeling of a clean edge Then verifying, obviously. Problem with relying on visual clues at this level, especially when not so experienced, is that you'll focus on them rather than on feeling. Going blindly allows two things: focusing on feeling; in verifying after and locating burr remnants, you get to know if your method of deburring on feeling is efficient, and as you'll take back the blade to the stones knowing exactly where that remnant is located, you can focus again on feeling of such a thing on the surface of the stone.


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## Benuser (Feb 26, 2021)

Test with the finest cigarette paper, feel, look and listen. A good edge should cut smoothly and sound like a whisper.


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## cotedupy (Feb 26, 2021)

FWIW this is almost exactly how I sharpen too. And sometimes not raise a noticeable burr on the initial stone either. But if it's a knife I don't know, then I will make sure I can feel it...



JakeLoveshighCarbon said:


> I'm no master, but I raise the burr on my initial edge especially with an unfamiliar knife. I usually dont start lower than 1k, and with my personal knives, I often start even finer.
> 
> If I'm just touching up a fine edge, I will not raise a burr. So my gut feeling is that burr raising should stop around 1-2k and just focus on feel and polishing. (Please jump in here experts if that isnt a good idea.) I get a lot of, I dont know what to call them, micro burrs maybe and a couple strops on leather shorts those out. Theyre just a slight ridge that I feel where edge isnt completely straight. With different steels that doesnt always work though. I've been playing around with ark stones in those situations. Anyway, maybe some other folks do this, but I'll deal with burr/microburr after 1k or so with the ark/strop and transition to my finishing stone around 4-8k. There should be no burrs around by then.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. I'm far from good at this.



I'd also mention, as I think someone said above... Globals are feckin weird and difficult things to sharpen (imo). I also learnt sharpening on Globals, and I learned a lot from the experience. If you can sharpen a blunt Global well then you'll find a good knife from Hitatchi carbon a doddle


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## Garm (Feb 26, 2021)

When it comes to detecting very fine burrs by touch, I find it easier to use my nails than fingertips. A very light, high angle, short stropping motion. Just like lightly brushing your nail sequentially with every section of the blade, both sides. At least with me, the slight scraping of a tiny burr registers more easily this way. If it's completely in line with the edge it can be trickier.
Fine paper, like @Benuser said, usually tells the truth also.


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## Twotimehojo (Feb 26, 2021)

Thank you all for the great information! A lingering question:

My current plan is try and create a burr on my coarsest stone, flip and create another one. Then use lowering pressures to decrease the size of the burr. That said I am still flipping a burr, just that its smaller right?

Then when moving to the next finer grit stone, I am still flipping sides BECAUSE I am still creating a burr on each side. The idea is that the burr is getting progressively smaller. Or if I cannot feel it, I can use my eyes and ears to help. Eyes with a loupe and the sound of how the knife is against the stone. Over time, I will develop my own technique using the above fundamentals as a foundation to become a better sharpener.

Is that a good understanding of what most folks said above?


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 26, 2021)

Twotimehojo said:


> Thank you all for the great information! A lingering question:
> 
> My current plan is try and create a burr on my coarsest stone, flip and create another one. Then use lowering pressures to decrease the size of the burr. That said I am still flipping a burr, just that its smaller right?
> 
> ...



For me...

Strive to *fully deburr *on every stone. I treat each stone like starting over. Yes, again, maybe I go a little lighter on the finer grits but I'm still looking to raise a burr and fully deburr before moving on.

Your knife needs to be sharp and complete off of _every _stone. If you're not sure where you are at right now, then just do one stone and strop and finish. Start with say the 500. Full sharpening and then you're done. If you have a persistent burr it will be very sharp but only last a couple slices and that burr will break or fold. Maybe use the knife for a few days or what have you.

Happy? 500 again and then your next stone and the same thing. And so on.

Just a thought that might teach you how you are truly doing in your progression. Both in terms of the edge and your understanding.

We can't grit our way into sharpness. Higher grits refine established edges making them keener.


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## ModRQC (Feb 26, 2021)

Twotimehojo said:


> Thank you all for the great information! A lingering question:
> 
> My current plan is try and create a burr on my coarsest stone, flip and create another one. Then use lowering pressures to decrease the size of the burr. That said I am still flipping a burr, just that its smaller right?
> 
> ...



Unless using very light pressure, especially on a coarse stone, any trailing stroke is liable to raise a burr, and it becomes especially more critical if your angle consistency is not right.

I'd say not to get too much focused on mechanics right now, but pressure levels, and feeling. So coarse stone, use enough pressure to raise a burr, flip it, and deburr to best of abilities with lighter and lighter pressure. Then the next stones up you never use the burr pressure again, just the subsequent levels. If you do enough strokes on each side as you refine on further stones, yes you should feel a burr forming again. It will be small, easier and easier to shed away with the deburring strokes. Getting to the finest stone, well the subject of this discussion is that it is harder to see or feel a burr. Keep at it with feather pressure until the edge stroke sounds and feels clean. Don't forget to wash away any such burr from the surface of the stone when you see them, or they will "roll" under your edge as you continue.


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## Twotimehojo (Feb 26, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> We can't grit our way into sharpness. Higher grits refine established edges making them keener.



That was gold! Thank you! Makes more sense now!


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## branwell (Feb 26, 2021)

Some fabulous SME images of burs.









What is a burr? – part 2


In part 1 of this article, the edge geometry associated with the deliberate “raising of a burr” was described. As noted, the thickness of this burr was several microns. For shaving, w…




scienceofsharp.com


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## madmotts (Feb 26, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Strive to *fully deburr on* *every stone*. I treat each stone like starting over...
> 
> Your knife needs to be sharp and complete off of _every _stone.



This is soo key. After I added this to my routine, there was a huge jump in sharpness. I had been only (attempting to) fully deburring on my last stone. I think i read a thread about "mastering the 1k." There was this moment when i was like _damn, there's something to deburring on the 1k_. Then i applied it to the 3k oh sh...  here we go.


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## inferno (Feb 26, 2021)

i dont go for burrs at all. maybe i'm doing it wrong? 

now for the restorations i just run them on the C stone until all chips are gone. then to the finisher until the C scratches are gone and the F finish is on the bevel. then i do alternation swiping motions. done.

for my own stuff i just put them on the finisher until i feel i have that finish on there. could be long or short. then alternating swipes.
or if i have to drop down low. then i start with a 1k and then to the finisher or some intermediate if going for a high grit stone such as a 12k as finisher.

in my ideal world i would hit the actual apex with the last swipe on the last stone. so yeah thats my ideal philosophy. but most of the time i just mash it for a while then go the fine stones. i try to do things as fast as possible. as efficient as possible.


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## KingShapton (Feb 26, 2021)

HumbleHomeCook said:


> Strive to *fully deburr *on every stone


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## KingShapton (Feb 27, 2021)

inferno said:


> i dont go for burrs at all. maybe i'm doing it wrong?


This is one of the best things about sharpening - there is no such thing as "the one way".

It is important that the respective path works for you.

There are many ways that lead to a sharp knife and everyone has to find their own way.


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## ModRQC (Feb 27, 2021)

With basics in mind, I think there's a logical three step progression into sharpening, and I might have gotten the order wrong which I feel has had me waste a lot of time. So I would go with:

-Get something sharper
-Understand which stone gives you the edge that works
-Deburring journey to perfection

I went to understand which stone worked best for my edge only late - and it was that one stone I had from the beginning and hated working on. It's all good that I focused on having a clean edge on SP2K for some and Rika for the finer ones - but where SP2K was the right choice for my softer steels, Rika edge was something I never cared for much - and realizing this late, it didn't help to focus on deburring because I still thought I was doing something wrong before understanding the best edges I ever experienced OOTB that far, which I strived for, were either dumb luck on a belt of short endurance, or any other stone than Rika for sure from makers actually sharpening knives on stones. Not speaking about understanding how geometry of the knife really played into "feeling" sharp where food separation was the more important factor than edge to some large extent.

This may seem stupid, but pay heed to the fact that:

- you must learn the basic motions on the stones, and getting something sharper than OOTB won't feel as such if the edge goes to even worse performance than after a month OOTB within a prep. You'll seek understanding, and learn about foil edge.

- you must differentiate sharpness that is given from a stone as partly a nature of that stone vs. how it works for you. It's not frustrating that in doing so, you'll get to the foil edge conundrum again. It's much more frustrating to lose weeks of chastising yourself, or being barely happier with well deburred edges that just don't work for you still or are not within ballpark of "better" edge you got to experience. Anyone can get the first step right to some extent, and "better" edge is a fluctuating concept along one's experience in sharpening that has some to do with skills in using/deburring, what he's got to experience better, and getting to understand where that better edge came from to begin with.

-journey to perfection - because you cannot never hit deburring problems in the first two steps of sharpening and very early get the notion nailed down to better extents because of failing edges. But getting focused on deburring when you can barely flip a burr to the other side, or don't understand that your actual stone finish is more deceptive than your deburring skills, is bad priority. It's like thinking you'll get better in any foot sport by running faster, whereas you can't control the ball no matter how fast you run.


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## big_adventure (Feb 27, 2021)

Most important thing: Nobody is "right" - you have to find the path that works for you. Don't be afraid to try different techniques, and don't be afraid to NOT follow somebody's advice to the letter.

Second most important thing: Slow down. It's extremely unlikely that you can do this as quickly and surely as the best sharpeners you see on the internet - certainly not now. Take your time: it's extremely unlikely that you don't have the time to take an extra 3 minutes. The speed of your strokes is completely unimportant. 

Here's my basic progression. On a "dull" knife (meaning it won't pushcut a paper towel cleanly, or it squashes trying to dice a tomato rather than cleanly sliding through the skin), I'll start on a 1K. I build the burr - which takes a different amount of time and strokes for different steels. I deburr with light high angle edge leading passes, one or two each side of the blade. I'll drag the edge over denim a time or two. Then I'll do light, on-angle edge-leading passes, declining 10 per side, then 8, then 6, then 4, then 2, then 1. I'll test by dragging on tissue. If nothing catches, the edge is clean. Then it's onto the 3K stone, and there, I'll ONLY do edge-leading light passes to polish on some blades, or I'll rebuild a super-fine burr on some others - it's just feel as to which is which. Either it's the whole process above, or it's just the edge-leading polishing. I'll then strop on leather. Done. 

But I'm definitely not right.


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## cotedupy (Feb 27, 2021)

Well hasn't this been an interesting thread eh!

I must confess that I normally don't normally make sure I've de-burred on each stone. But then I also don't normally check whether I have a burr. And I rarely use more than one stone on a knife anyway tbh... I find it kinda fun seeing how different stones compare doing the same thing. Knives will get useably sharp on a lot of things


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## Twotimehojo (Feb 27, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> Most important thing: Nobody is "right" - you have to find the path that works for you. Don't be afraid to try different techniques, and don't be afraid to NOT follow somebody's advice to the letter.
> 
> Second most important thing: Slow down. It's extremely unlikely that you can do this as quickly and surely as the best sharpeners you see on the internet - certainly not now. Take your time: it's extremely unlikely that you don't have the time to take an extra 3 minutes. The speed of your strokes is completely unimportant.
> 
> ...


 
Curious. How did you arrive at the high angle one or two passes followed by declining passes at the burr angle. That would not seem intuitive. 

I like the idea of edge leading. My Global is sharp for food but I have yet to push cut newspaper on one of my sharpened knives.


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## daveb (Feb 27, 2021)

I like edge leading and use it to finish knives. But it's a technique to incorporate after you've gotten past the "wobbly" stage. It will de-burr but it will also trash an edge.


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## Michi (Feb 28, 2021)

I have a tough time feeling a burr from 3000 grit and up. I usually tear off a small bit of kitchen towel or tissue paper and slowly slide it down from the spine towards the edge. If it catches, there is a burr.


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## big_adventure (Feb 28, 2021)

Twotimehojo said:


> Curious. How did you arrive at the high angle one or two passes followed by declining passes at the burr angle. That would not seem intuitive.
> 
> I like the idea of edge leading. My Global is sharp for food but I have yet to push cut newspaper on one of my sharpened knives.



I think I first saw a video where someone did that - I have no idea who it was. The first high-angle edge leading passes are done at super light pressure - perhaps half the weight of the blade. They are just for pure deburring. I'll usually slide the blade through fabric or tissue after to ensure that most of the burr is gone, in addition to the three finger test. Then the rest of the edge-leading passes are done with fairly light pressure - around the weight of the blade plus perhaps a couple of ounces of finger pressure.



daveb said:


> I like edge leading and use it to finish knives. But it's a technique to incorporate after you've gotten past the "wobbly" stage. It will de-burr but it will also trash an edge.



Interesting. You certainly know more about sharpening than I do, but my experience has been that it works and doesn't trash the edge. I need to get a microscope and get a better look at it I suppose. At 10x, I don't see any issues to the edge, but that's not all that much magnification. I can pretty easily get edges to HHT2 - HHT4 depending on the steel and the angle using roughly that technique, stopping on the Chosera 3K stone plus stropping. And I use these blades on all my prep - including butternuts, onions, leeks, potatoes - every veggie imaginable really.


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## Garm (Feb 28, 2021)

big_adventure said:


> my experience has been that it works and doesn't trash the edge.


From what he said, I think that just means that you're well past the "wobbly" stage. That you can hold a steady, consistent angle.
When I started out it took me a while before I could use edge leading strokes for deburring without rounding or crushing the edge.


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## HumbleHomeCook (Feb 28, 2021)

Garm said:


> From what he said, I think that just means that you're well past the "wobbly" stage. That you can hold a steady, consistent angle.
> When I started out it took me a while before I could use edge leading strokes for deburring without rounding or crushing the edge.



This.

My preference has always been to advise edge trailing to beginning sharpeners. It is very easy to ruin an apex with edge leading. I often still use edge trailing.


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## daveb (Feb 28, 2021)

This again. Getting past "wobbly" and pressure control are prerequisite to edge leading being effective.


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## big_adventure (Feb 28, 2021)

daveb said:


> I like edge leading and use it to finish knives. But it's a technique to incorporate after you've gotten past the "wobbly" stage. It will de-burr but it will also trash an edge.



I come to realize I misunderstood your point. Thanks everyone else.


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## Kawa (Feb 28, 2021)

The thing for me is, I sharpen in sections, like most people do i think.

When deburring you make a sweeping motion from heel to tip or from tip to heel. So it's completely different then what I'm used to while sharpening. All of a sudden you have to raise your holding hand during one motion (im doing heel to tip) while hitting the edge before i reach the top of my stone.
Add to that that the very light pressure while doing a edge leading stroke, the feeling is completely gone.

Lately I used sharpy when I was done sharpening, just to see where i hit the edge when I try to debur using edge leading on a stone.

I almost started crying. Some parts were to obtuse, while near the tip I was too acute..

Im gonna ruin a lot of sharp knives this way while learning i guess..


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## Garm (Feb 28, 2021)

Kawa said:


> Lately I used sharpy when I was done sharpening, just to see where i hit the edge when I try to debur using edge leading on a stone.
> 
> I almost started crying. Some parts were to obtuse, while near the tip I was too acute..


I think this would happen to a lot of people, definitely myself included. Like you said, the motion is quite different from that used during regular sharpening unless you use full sweeps for the entire process.

A lot of instruction videos from experienced sharpeners say to use deburring strokes at the exact same angle as that used when sharpening, yet if you pay close attention most of them raise the angle a little towards the end, probably subconciously. Others deliberately increase the angle for deburring, sometimes in several increments.

Cutting a bevel at an exact angle all the time, and subsequently hitting the entire bevel while at the same time reaching the apex at all points with every deburring stroke would be an amazing feat with freehand sharpening. It would mean creating an edge bevel without any convexity. Perhaps some insanely skilled sharpeners are able to do it. I strive for it to some extent, but can't say I have high hopes of ever being able to achieve it.
I should probably use sharpie more than I do, because it is a useful aid, but I find it can also be a little disruptive to the feel or rythm if I become too focused on it, if that makes sense?


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## wombat (Feb 28, 2021)

cotedupy said:


> I must confess that I normally don't normally make sure I've de-burred on each stone.


Same here. I'll be trying it next time I sharpen. 

I can usually feel a burr all the way up to 8000 grit, but if I'm not de-burring on each stone then I guess it's essentially the same burr getting flipped back and forth and getting smaller as the stones get finer.


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## Benuser (Feb 28, 2021)

Use a loupe with the sharpie, and you will cry even more. It allows to make sure the bevels do really meet. Burrs may appear before, depending on the used pressure and the type of steel. Relying only on the burr without checking with sharpie and loupe may result in the accumulation of debris on top of the old edge without the building of a new apex. The result may seem somewhat sharper because of the thinning behind the edge, or much sharper in case of a wire edge that will fail at the first board contact.


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## ModRQC (Feb 28, 2021)

I make sure I deburr. IDGAF if it's deburred _perfectly_ until the last. It has to cut paper without a single glitch at each step though, with the clean sound I'm expecting from the stone just used. Burr remnants are real easy to spot in how they make a cut sound like tearing more than like cutting. I think I fell into this pattern just because I was lazy and sometimes wouldn't clean the knife before going the next stone - until it slapped me back in the face. Not a big issue, but now I have to cut paper, so blade has to be clean and dry. 

Ok ok I just love the sound of a fresh edge out of any stone and gave a lot of study to that sound.


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## Benuser (Feb 28, 2021)

In order to complicate things a bit more: after raising the first burr try to abrade it before raising one on the opposite side. So you make sure there's a new burr, and not just the old one flipping sides. Too often I read that raising the first burr was hard and did take a lot of time. The one on the opposite side apppearred almost instantly. Makes me suspicious. Especially when a notorious difficult steel like OP's Global is involved.
My proposals may seem cumbersome, but if applied with the first stone, the next ones require very little work.


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## ian (Feb 28, 2021)

I usually do a really quick deburr on every stone. Couple edge leading strokes with medium pressure on coarse stones, for instance. Makes it a bit easier to check progress on subsequent stones, and in my mind it results in better edges, but it probably doesn’t matter much.

It’s useful when doing edge leading strokes to keep a finger of the free hand right on the edge (partly on the stone) to form a guide. You sort of draw the knife to one side as you do the stroke, so your finger basically goes straight down the length of the stone, but makes contact with almost the whole edge during the stroke.

I basically never use sharpie or loupe for edges, although I did find it useful when starting out. For me it’s much easier to operate by feel than by sight.




Garm said:


> Perhaps some insanely skilled sharpeners are able to do it. I strive for it to some extent, but can't say I have high hopes of ever being able to achieve it.



I don’t think that kind of edge is of any particular benefit in the kitchen.


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## ian (Feb 28, 2021)

Benuser said:


> In order to complicate things a bit more: after raising the first burr try to abrade it before raising one on the opposite side. So you make sure there's a new burr, and not just the old one flipping sides. Too often I read that raising the first burr was hard and did take a lot of time. The one on the opposite side apppearred almost instantly. Makes me suspicious. Especially when a notorious difficult steel like OP's Global is involved.
> My proposals may seem cumbersome, but if applied with the first stone, the next ones require very little work.



That’s a good point. It’s especially tempting to go easy on the second side if the second side is your slightly weaker side, like it is for me. (I’ve gotta make myself start the sharpening on the weak side somehow. It just feels unnatural to do that.) That said, if you hold a good angle and your stone is clean and flat the burr doesn’t usually flip till you’ve hit the apex.

On the stainless that I often sharpen for people, burrs can be tenacious! I usually go up to Chosera 800 or so, do a few edge leading strokes to get the edge mostly clean, then do something aggressive like ripping off the burr by drawing the knife through cork and/or stropping on the back of a blue sponge, then go back with light edge leading strokes on the 800 and finish with a couple edge trailing strokes on cardboard.


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## wombat (Feb 28, 2021)

Benuser said:


> Too often I read that raising the first burr was hard and did take a lot of time. The one on the opposite side apppearred almost instantly. Makes me suspicious. Especially when a notorious difficult steel like OP's Global is involved.


Yep, this sounds very familiar.


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## big_adventure (Mar 1, 2021)

ian said:


> It’s useful when doing edge leading strokes to keep a finger of the free hand right on the edge (partly on the stone) to form a guide. You sort of draw the knife to one side as you do the stroke, so your finger basically goes straight down the length of the stone, but makes contact with almost the whole edge during the stroke.



This is how I do all my edge leading strokes. I don't think I saw anyone doing it this way, but after trying a dozen different ways to equalize pressure throughout the stroke, I decided on this. Nothing else felt as consistent for the entire edge.


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