# VG10-MAX vs VG-10 chipping problems.



## HappyamateurDK (May 7, 2019)

Hallo all.

So I got this shun premier from my wife, she bought it with advice from a local specialist store, because she knew I prefer western style and large handles. And I must say I really like it so far. She was told a MAC pro would also be a good choice but the handle is just to small for me( I have tried it earlier )

I know shun in general are very disliked on this forum. And is often considered overpriced mainstream. Time will tell if I feel the same. But will ofcourse make my own opinion. 

Anyway. The steel is something they call VG10-MAX. Does anyone here know what the difference is to ordinary VG10?

When reading on the internet apparently chipping is not uncommon with shun knives. Is that a thing of the past, or are that still a problem with VG10-MAX. 

I own 3 other knives in VG10( 2 tojiro and a senjen ) and I have never experienced chipping at all. 

The shun as well as my other Japanese knives will only be used on wood boards, and not for rough stuff. I have a Fdick and a zwilling for that. 

Anything else I could do to avoid chipping of the edge? 

Thanks in advance. 

Søren


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## da_mich* (May 7, 2019)

HappyamateurDK said:


> Hallo all.
> 
> So I got this shun premier from my wife, she bought it with advice from a local specialist store, because she knew I prefer western style and large handles. And I must say I really like it so far. She was told a MAC pro would also be a good choice but the handle is just to small for me( I have tried it earlier )
> 
> ...




The Shun premier blades are very very thin and brittle. I restored a lot of them. At most time the chipping is caused by missusing. Cutting meat with bones, frozen things, bread with a hard crust or else can cause this type of damage. I recommend to use it only with soft things like fillets, vegetables & fruits without a core.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 7, 2019)

da_mich* said:


> The Shun premier blades are very very thin and brittle. I restored a lot of them. At most time the chipping is caused by missusing. Cutting meat with bones, frozen things, bread with a hard crust or else can cause this type of damage. I recommend to use it only with soft things like fillets, vegetables & fruits without a core.



That was pretty much my plan..I.don't cut those things with my other Japanese knifes either 

I mostly use them for vegetables and meat without bones. 

But should I assume that my shun is more prone to chipping then my tojiros?


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## da_mich* (May 7, 2019)

I don´t know it. I restored ~60 knifes and near 100% of the chipped knifes are from Kai. Other knifes are rusty, scractched or with broken tips but Kai blades are always chipped. In my oppinon chipping is a huge Kai problem.


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## Larrin (May 7, 2019)

I don't know if the exact composition is known. It sounds like they added a little more of everything: https://shun.kaiusaltd.com/blog/what-is-vg-max-steel


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## Eloh (May 7, 2019)

Yes. My guess is it's what they (takefu) also sell as "Cobalt special"
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/cobalt_special.shtml


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## HappyamateurDK (May 7, 2019)

da_mich* said:


> I don´t know it. I restored ~60 knifes and near 100% of the chipped knifes are from Kai. Other knifes are rusty, scractched or with broken tips but Kai blades are always chipped. In my oppinon chipping is a huge Kai problem.



Thanks for the input. It will be exciting to see if chipping will also be a problem with thoughtful use. Time will tell.


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## stringer (May 7, 2019)

I have owned several vg-10 knives and 1 vg-max shun premier chef knife. They are very similar. 
Both get brittle if you go to aggressive with the cutting edge and will be prone to chipping if you abuse them. Both have a fail mode tendency toward chipping as opposed to edge rolling. So if you're used to soft stainless they might seem chippy. And I imagine most buyers of vg-max are coming from soft stainless and not Heiji and TF.
But you can also put a chunkier bevel on vg-max/10 and they will do fine in even the most demanding conditions. Shun's suck because they are handle heavy and half of their cost is tied up in marketing and retail/overhead/profit margins. But the steel is fine. I put a really chunky edge on my Shun because I didn't really feel like thinning it and used it for a lobster/chicken knife for a long time in a professional environment.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 7, 2019)

stringer said:


> I have owned several vg-10 knives and 1 vg-max shun premier chef knife. They are very similar.
> Both get brittle if you go to aggressive with the cutting edge and will be prone to chipping if you abuse them. Both have a fail mode tendency toward chipping as opposed to edge rolling. So if you're used to soft stainless they might seem chippy. And I imagine most buyers of vg-max are coming from soft stainless and not Heiji and TF.
> But you can also put a chunkier bevel on vg-max/10 and they will do fine in even the most demanding conditions. Shun's suck because they are handle heavy and half of their cost is tied up in marketing and retail/overhead/profit margins. But the steel is fine. I put a really chunky edge on my Shun because I didn't really feel like thinning it and used it for a lobster/chicken knife for a long time in a professional environment.



So if I understand you correctly. I should be able to use the shun the same way I use my tojiro DP. Because of the similar steel ?


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## stringer (May 7, 2019)

HappyamateurDK said:


> So if I understand you correctly. I should be able to use the shun the same way I use my tojiro DP. Because of the similar steel ?



Yes. Grind and profile will be different obviously. But the steel should be very similar. Both are stainless clad vg-.


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## Benuser (May 7, 2019)

A lot of blades are chippy with their factory edge. Must have to do with factory buffering. Brand new with fatigued steel. After a few sharpenings it's over. Or go for the more radical treatment: start sharpening with a 320 or so, and raise a fat burr to make sure your new edge is made of fresh steel.


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## Paraffin (May 7, 2019)

My wife has used a Shun premier santoku for a few years now. No problem with chipping, but she knows the drill about knife care -- no 90 degree lateral scraping on the board, no contact with bones, no throwing it in the sink or dishwasher with silverware. We use soft wood Hinoki boards for veg, or rubber Hi-Soft boards for raw protein. Treat it like you would a good carbon steel knife, and it's fine.

Sharpening isn't exactly fun, but that's true of other stainless knives I sharpen in R2, HAP40, or VG10/VG2. I don't notice any significant difference in feel on the stones with VG-Max. I use the same edge angle as my Japanese carbon steel knives.


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## CoteRotie (May 7, 2019)

I have a Shun classic boning knife in VG-Max. 

My wife tossed it in to a sink full of forks and knives from more than a meter away as I was screaming "nooooooooo!" Any high hardness knife would have chipped from that abuse, and this one had four or five 0.5-1mm chips in the edge. 

I fixed the chips and put a true razor edge on it, and with proper use it hasn't chipped since. So VG-Max is capable of getting very sharp and in my case hasn't chipped with proper use, even with a very thin edge. 

My wife now has a dedicated Wusthof chef's knife and a couple of Wusthof paring knives that she can throw around at will.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 7, 2019)

CoteRotie said:


> I have a Shun classic boning knife in VG-Max.
> 
> My wife tossed it in to a sink full of forks and knives from more than a meter away as I was screaming "nooooooooo!" Any high hardness knife would have chipped from that abuse, and this one had four or five 0.5-1mm chips in the edge.
> 
> ...



My wife mostly use an old zwilling and a little MAC pro. Those are her knives and she refuse to use mine because she won't listen to my complaints when she use them wrong.


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## playero (May 7, 2019)

Do you guys have different knives from your wife? How do you divide them? Do they complain?


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## HappyamateurDK (May 7, 2019)

playero said:


> Do you guys have different knives from your wife? How do you divide them? Do they complain?



Yep..it's not that she's not allowed to use mine. But she doesn't wan't to listen to my complaints when she use them wrong. And her opinion is that her old zwilling and her little mac is perfectly fine for everything..and to be fair she always gets the job done perfectly fine. They are placed in the same drawer.


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## Bert2368 (May 8, 2019)

playero said:


> Do you guys have different knives from your wife? How do you divide them? Do they complain?



It was just a Henckels 4 star parer. Old, had it since 1984.

But when I saw her grab it and start to use it to pry open the (glued shut!) heavy "engineering grade" plastic case of an instrument needing to be fixed, my shriek was ear piercing.

She still bent the %$#&! out of it before I wrested it from her grip.

I carefully hammered it (reasonably) straight. And still use it.


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## Paraffin (May 8, 2019)

playero said:


> Do you guys have different knives from your wife? How do you divide them? Do they complain?



This is going to be different for everyone, so don't draw too many conclusions about wives or other Significant Others. We're all different, our relationships are all different.

I'm very fortunate in having a wife with a Dad who raised her as a tool-user. She had her own toolbox as a small child, learned to drive on a farm tractor before she ever got near a car. A real science geek too; as much into computer tech as I am. So we share the knife drawer in our home kitchen. 

She prefers stainless steel for convenience, so she uses mostly our Sukenari 165mm petty in Hap40, a Shun santoku in VG-Max, and a Kurosaki 180mm nakiri in R2. But she'll also use one of my carbon steel knives like the Y. Ikeda 115mm petty for some things. She knows how to dry it off before putting it away, and she knows all the other knife care routines. I don't have to explain why you don't throw a sharp knife into a metal sink with other silverware. She gets it.

We're both cooks, share the kitchen equally. My past relationships weren't all like that, but this one's a keeper (going on 21 years now).


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## zizirex (May 8, 2019)

HappyamateurDK said:


> Hallo all.
> 
> So I got this shun premier from my wife, she bought it with advice from a local specialist store, because she knew I prefer western style and large handles. And I must say I really like it so far. She was told a MAC pro would also be a good choice but the handle is just to small for me( I have tried it earlier )
> 
> ...



VG-10 max from Shun is same as normal VG-10, it is just a marketing thing. I asked one of the knife vendors he said that he was informed from Takefu Steel guy that Shun uses its normal VG-10.

Shun somehow does a bit terrible HT or maybe because it is not forged... because Tojiro DP seems to have less chippy problem in amateur's hands.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 8, 2019)

zizirex said:


> VG-10 max from Shun is same as normal VG-10, it is just a marketing thing. I asked one of the knife vendors he said that he was informed from Takefu Steel guy that Shun uses its normal VG-10.
> 
> Shun somehow does a bit terrible HT or maybe because it is not forged... because Tojiro DP seems to have less chippy problem in amateur's hands.



Sounds to me like chipping is mostly a problem for people who use them wrong.


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## zizirex (May 8, 2019)

HappyamateurDK said:


> Sounds to me like chipping is mostly a problem for people who use them wrong.



That’s is 99% true.. but good maker know how to make it less chippy when **** happens. But the grind also one of the factor.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 8, 2019)

zizirex said:


> That’s is 99% true.. but good maker know how to make it less chippy when **** happens. But the grind also one of the factor.



Time will tell if also i end up hating shun as much as most people in here. So far I actually like the balance and western style blade that many complain about. So it is pretty much down to the stel now.


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## Larrin (May 8, 2019)

Eloh said:


> Yes. My guess is it's what they (takefu) also sell as "Cobalt special"
> http://zknives.com/knives/steels/cobalt_special.shtml


Plausible theory


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## CoteRotie (May 8, 2019)

playero said:


> Do you guys have different knives from your wife? How do you divide them? Do they complain?



I do 100% of the main meal cooking, and she doesn't see value in any knife you can't put in the dishwasher, so after the chipping incident she doesn't touch my knives at all. She has her Wusthofs for whenever she makes a snack or something for work.


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## Tanalasta (May 9, 2019)

I suspect chipping is due to:

Higher incidence due to a higher prevalence of Shun users in the community. 

Knife abuse. Knives chip. There’re microchips on my Toyama as a new blade and it was only very light prep. 

My Shun’s have never chipped. And I sometimes mistreat them...


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## HappyamateurDK (May 9, 2019)

Tanalasta said:


> I suspect chipping is due to:
> 
> Higher incidence due to a higher prevalence of Shun users in the community.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds good. Are your shun's VG10 ?


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## minibatataman (May 9, 2019)

playero said:


> Do you guys have different knives from your wife? How do you divide them? Do they complain?



Easy, I got her a kiwi knife. That's her knife. She doesn't use any of the other knives in that drawer.


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## Tanalasta (May 9, 2019)

HappyamateurDK said:


> Sounds good. Are your shun's VG10 ?



Chefs classic range. VGmax brwnddd


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## BrianShaw (May 10, 2019)

HappyamateurDK said:


> Time will tell if also i end up hating shun as much as most people in here. So far I actually like the balance and western style blade that many complain about. So it is pretty much down to the stel now.


I’ve actually been quite satisfied with mine for almost a decade.

Had very minor chipping (micro-chipping, I would call it) once on a factory edge. Twice had bent tips - once from dropping on ceramic tile floor and once when housekeeper used it to pry something. Ex-housekeeper.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 10, 2019)

BrianShaw said:


> I’ve actually been quite satisfied with mine for almost a decade.
> 
> Had very minor chipping (micro-chipping, I would call it) once on a factory edge. Twice had bent tips - once from dropping on ceramic tile floor and once when housekeeper used it to pry something. Ex-housekeeper.



Good to hear.

Due to some other interest I follow some other forums on the internet. Forums that are about car parts and hifi equipment. usually there is a pattern. For stuff to be acknowledged as " good " it has to be very special and very expensive. Everything mainstream sold by large companies to ordinary people are per definition bad products.

Maybe some people here feel the same about knives


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## BrianShaw (May 10, 2019)

There are a lot of opinions on the Internet that are factual and a lot that are based in emotion and a lot that are based in assumption and a lot that are based in bad information. It is quite a challenge to decipher internet information sometimes.

... and then there is the internet gang and bullying mentality that makes things even more difficult. 

Your headed in the right direction by figuring out for yourself what works for YOU.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 10, 2019)

BrianShaw said:


> There are a lot of opinions on the Internet that are factual and a lot that are based in emotion and a lot that are based in assumption and a lot that are based in bad information. It is quite a challenge to decipher internet information sometimes.
> 
> 
> ... and then there is the internet gang and bullying mentality that makes things even more difficult.
> ...



That is the same on every forum on every subject on the internet.


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## PappaG (May 10, 2019)

I am in the pro shun group with one very important caveat: Never buy new. Always buy used at more than 50% off retail. If you do, shuns are not bad at all and I have enjoyed all of mine.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 10, 2019)

PappaG said:


> I am in the pro shun group with one very important caveat: Never buy new. Always buy used at more than 50% off retail. If you do, shuns are not bad at all and I have enjoyed all of mine.



But why used? Is it all about price or?


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## CoteRotie (May 10, 2019)

Most of my Shuns are gifts from people who know I like Japanese knives and don't really know much about them. However, they're reasonably good knives. Hardly ever the first thing I reach for unless I'm cutting citrus or something else highly acidic, in which case they are a good stainless option.


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## inferno (May 10, 2019)

BrianShaw said:


> There are a lot of opinions on the Internet that are factual and a lot that are based in emotion and a lot that are based in assumption and a lot that are based in bad information. It is quite a challenge to decipher internet information sometimes.
> 
> ... and then there is the internet gang and bullying mentality that makes things even more difficult.
> 
> Your headed in the right direction by figuring out for yourself what works for YOU.




While this might be true. I base ALL decisions/EVERYTHING I buy from other peoples verdicts on stuff pretty much. If you read enough comments on something "the truth" will somehow start to show it self.

I have never been disappointed with anything I researched and then bought. they were pretty much spot on. go figure. really surprising. If you cruise enough forums and stuff you will quickly learn how to "weigh" the comments.
You basically have to judge the posters knowledge and experience with the product/other similar products and his general knowhow somehow. when you manage to do this then you can read between the lines. what are they _really_ saying..


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## chinacats (May 10, 2019)

Shun parers are excellent...other knives are fine too if you like the somewhat odd profiles.


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## inferno (May 10, 2019)

anyone tried that one where they welded 2 steels together in a sawlike pattern (non damascus)? is it good?
vg10/vg2 real damascus supposedly or more correctly "pattern welded". 

looks kickass to me at least. just look at it! 








personally i think most of the bad reporting stems from user inexperience. they simply find a flashy knife in a store and buy it for their accountant husband to replace his 5mm thick 20bux wusthoff. 
hubby goes on a can opening and screwdriving spree and hey, who would have guessed it. it chipped out. the horror!!! surprise surprise... then on top of that they might me hardened more chippy than the true premium brands. 

just a little story for you guys. a buddy at work just got a jck hattori forum santoku in vg10 on my recommedation. dreaded vg10 right. and he reports no "impossible burrs" to get rid of. instead he reports very good edge holding, and very high max attainable sharpness. and no chippyness/brittleness at all. and also the best fit and finish he has ever seen. I also thought it was very very good FF since i have handled it. but not better then my shiki limited edition (now called the black dragon series). So none of the reported problems with vg10 is existing in his blade. go figure. 

So is shuns vg10 HT sh1t or is vg10 sh1t? i'd say some companies HT is sh1t. also my shiki LE is superb. both in use and on the stones. no burrs from hell there! how can this possibly be??????

Sure i think maybe shuns vg10 HT is not up to hattoris forum vg10 standards, judging from all reports of it being crap. and no smoke without fire, you can bet your ass on that! the hattoris at least are made by Ryusen or at least HT'ed by them, but I think most of the vg-10 problems is that people are abusing the blades. _vg10 is not global aus6, or wusthoff krupp at 52hrc. _Not even in its softest usable state. its much much more brittle than these other 0,5-0,6C% steels. but if done right its good! probably up there with r2 and other powders to be honest

the other problem i think people are experiencing is that most of these mass produced blades are truly mass produced. big ass belt grinders. high belt speeds, and at the very edge you will get temperatures above 1000C and that means you are now rehardening the blade pretty much. and since all knife SS is "air hardening" its will most definitely re-harden at the very edge at the thinnest point. BUT with the exception that you dont actually TEMPER it again to remove that "as quenched" hardness/brittleness. so its brittle sh1t out of the box. this is phucking rocket science. 

A trick i usually do is that i simply completely kill the edge on all my new blades and then remove maybe a mm or so of the edge, and then thin them out and flatten the sides. And none of my knives has been "chippy" nor brittle" sure a beer can took a 5mm bite out of a kuraski AS edge after quite many blows. so i say it shall pass, with the highest stamp of approval actually. 

so i say grind off 1-2mm edge of your shun then judge it. I guess they are mostly fine by then. all of them pretty much. or at least ok in the general sense.


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## Paraffin (May 10, 2019)

inferno said:


> anyone tried that one where they welded 2 steels together in a sawlike pattern (non damascus)? is it good?
> vg10/vg2 real damascus supposedly or more correctly "pattern welded".
> 
> looks kickass to me at least. just look at it!



Yeah, I bought the kiritsuke (double bevel) version of that series when I was just starting to get back into Japanese knives. Bought it on sale for something like $210. I agree with the advice above, that if you're curious about any of the higher-priced Shuns you should get them on sale if you can. Especially the odd ones like this.

The main selling point hype was this: " _During normal use, the two steels will wear at different rates creating micro serrations along the edge so that the Dual Core’s extremely sharp edge feels sharp longer._" Yeah, not really. Not in my experience anyway. The feel when sharpening and the edge retention feels exactly the same as my wife's VG-Max Shun santoku, and similar enough to our knives in R2 or Hap40. It's just another hard stainless knife in that respect. If the edge looks any different from a normal sharpened edge bevel from a monosteel, it's at a level where I can't see it or feel it in practice.

The other selling point is "_Etched laminations in the blade reduce drag, helping food release from the blade and gliding through each cut quickly and easily. _" Now that one may have at least a smidgen of validity. This has become my preferred knife for cutting potato rounds. It has good release, but it's not like a night and day difference. It may just be that my other knives are a little stickier than some others, and not that this one is so great.

The other reason I like it for potatoes, and also for hard squash, is that it's a very robust knife. The grind is still relatively thin, but the steel feels very strong, not at all bendy. Maybe there is some added strength from the pattern weld of two slightly different steels? I dunno. It's kind of a goofy knife, and way overpriced at full cost if you don't find it on sale. But I like using it for hard veg cutting to spare my finer Japanese carbon knives.


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## inferno (May 10, 2019)

Paraffin said:


> The main selling point hype was this: " _During normal use, the two steels will wear at different rates creating micro serrations along the edge so that the Dual Core’s extremely sharp edge feels sharp longer._"



this is (even theoretically) complete BS and it was the same 30 years ago with real "damascus" knives (real damascus is AFAIK actually wootz and that is a completely differenet thing allinall.) . if anything the lesser steel just degrades the better steel more than it in theory should. AND ONLY one of them _*can*_ be hardened and tempered properly, and that fact alone should make people run away.... I was slightly sceptical even in the early 2000nds to even "real" damascus claims. and i guess i was right. having read a few books about steel and HTing by then. I feel i din't really miss out on stuff.


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## inferno (May 10, 2019)

still want to hear user stories though. it can still be good enough for me. i'm just a lowly worker.


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## captaincaed (May 15, 2019)

stringer said:


> I have owned several vg-10 knives and 1 vg-max shun premier chef knife. They are very similar.
> Both get brittle if you go to aggressive with the cutting edge and will be prone to chipping if you abuse them. Both have a fail mode tendency toward chipping as opposed to edge rolling. So if you're used to soft stainless they might seem chippy. And I imagine most buyers of vg-max are coming from soft stainless and not Heiji and TF.
> But you can also put a chunkier bevel on vg-max/10 and they will do fine in even the most demanding conditions. Shun's suck because they are handle heavy and half of their cost is tied up in marketing and retail/overhead/profit margins. But the steel is fine. I put a really chunky edge on my Shun because I didn't really feel like thinning it and used it for a lobster/chicken knife for a long time in a professional environment.



I've had a similar experience. I keep my friend's Shun sharpened up. The more acute I take the edge, the more the edge chips out. If I back up to a solid 15deg/side, it seems to hold without chipping for quite a while. Food release ain't bad either. Not my favorite, way too much belly for my taste, but I don't mind using it nearly as much as the old Wusthof I used to put up with at her place. 

She's pretty brutal with it. Leaves it dirty, wet, in the sink, under the dish rack. Everything short of the dishwasher. I have to say it's held up pretty well, and cuts pretty well when asked. Easy to sharpen, never seen the gnarly burr issues I see floating around.


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## inferno (May 17, 2019)

so they are quite chippy even when sharpened a few times?? am i interpreting this right? i wasnt really in the market though i guess.


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## captaincaed (May 17, 2019)

Well, it's a Shun, so it's _Shun VG-10_. And yes, seems to chip when sharpened at low angles for me. However, I've heard Shun is far from the best of the VG-10 bunch, and possibly inconsistent as well. Who knows. It's still a good knife, take it over a modern German or French knife _every day_. It's better in most situations than my vintage Sab. Think I even prefer it over a couple Globals I've tried. Prefer my Mac, but mostly for the handle and profile. Once I start getting into the Sukenaris and Asais, the Shun has been left behind, but those are very different knives. The Shun profile is a bit bollocks, but there's nothing _wrong_ with the knife. Just not the sexiest, but it works really well for my SO's situation. I really don't mind using it. My two cents. 

I'd believe a reputable vendor who recommends a good VG-10, based on an OK experience with and OK example. It may not have quite the sex appeal of other steels, but I'm honestly really curious to try one with a good heat treat. There are still a couple Hiromotos at JCK, and I can't imagine they're bad knives. I just don't like caring for suminagashi finishes.


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## inferno (May 17, 2019)

Basically your observation reflects every one else observation with shuns.  i have none of them.

many times they chippyness of edges are caused by overheating the edge when grinding the edge at the factory. and it goes away after maybe 2-4 sharpenings. but if it doesn't then either the material is unsuitable or the HT is sh1t. thats it pretty much. or not optimal for the task at hand at least. for the users that own them.

I think mac makes very good knives. much better than global. feels much better on the stones too. i like the cryoed ones. very good steel perfomance of those. they call it the "superior steel"


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## captaincaed (May 17, 2019)

I love the heck out of my Mac. Not much love around here (I agree the branding puts them into the uggo camp) but I really like using mine. Have only tried the cryo steel, and +1 from me.


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## HappyamateurDK (May 18, 2019)

A little follow up.

I have used it quite a bit now. Maybe 8-10 hours in all. And no chipping at all so far. But I have bin cautious not using it on bones frozen food, sand from salats and so on. 

I still like the profile on the blade..maybe it is because I am used to my F-dick and zwilling as well as a Tojiro DP. The shun feels lighter and much more nimble then the tojiro that is also 3 centimeters longer. But I still prefer the handle on my tojiro. It just feels more solid and like a tool that is meant to be used. 

All in all I am so far very happy with the shun.


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## captaincaed (May 18, 2019)

I will say there are some serious gimmicks at Shun. Love this video. Notice how “easily” it cuts the tomato.

I know it’s easy to jump on them, but their bread-and-butter stuff is pretty good. I can think of better ways to spend $375 though...


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## Carl Kotte (May 18, 2019)

captaincaed said:


> I will say there are some serious gimmicks at Shun. Love this video. Notice how “easily” it cuts the tomato.
> 
> I know it’s easy to jump on them, but their bread-and-butter stuff is pretty good. I can think of better ways to spend $375 though...




Haha, lovely!!!


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## playero (May 18, 2019)

amazing that he has to move back and forth when this should be a straight cut


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## playero (May 18, 2019)

and believe me I have shun and globals as well as kai and other that you would call low end knives


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## CoteRotie (May 18, 2019)

playero said:


> amazing that he has to move back and forth when this should be a straight cut


Yeah, I thought the same thing. Either poor technique or a dull knife. I have a few Shuns as well and they definitely sharpen up well enough to push cut a tomato in a single slice. So not sure what the sawing is all about


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## Carl Kotte (May 19, 2019)

CoteRotie said:


> Yeah, I thought the same thing. Either poor technique or a dull knife. I have a few Shuns as well and they definitely sharpen up well enough to push cut a tomato in a single slice. So not sure what the sawing is all about



Yeah, if I wanted to push a knife brand by showing off how sharp it is I would not use a hesitant sawing technique. Can anyone be impressed by that shun clip?


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## Michi (May 19, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> Yeah, if I wanted to push a knife brand by showing off how sharp it is I would not use a hesitant sawing technique. Can anyone be impressed by that shun clip?


The problem here isn't that this is a Shun knife. The problem is that this is a dull knife.

Whether a knife is sharp or not has nothing to do with who makes it. You can sharpen the edge of a tin can so it cuts like a scalpel…


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## Carl Kotte (May 19, 2019)

Michi said:


> The problem here isn't that this is a Shun knife. The problem is that this is a dull knife.
> 
> Whether a knife is sharp or not has nothing to do with who makes it. You can sharpen the edge of a tin can so it cuts like a scalpel…



Yup, I agree, and I am not saying anything that contradicts what you are saying. So, what did you mean by your comment?


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## Carl Kotte (May 19, 2019)

What I found funny was simply the fact that someone would use a dull knife for shooting a commercial or a clip. But that holds for all brands, and not Shun in particular.


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## Michi (May 19, 2019)

Carl Kotte said:


> Yup, I agree, and I am not saying anything that contradicts what you are saying. So, what did you mean by your comment?


I was just agreeing with you


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## Carl Kotte (May 19, 2019)

Michi said:


> I was just agreeing with you



Haha! [emoji16]


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## Keith Sinclair (May 19, 2019)

If your other VG10 knives have not chipped it means you take care of your knives. The premiere is one of the better shuns take care of it & will serve you well. Reason discounted are best is because they tend to be over priced for what they are. That and some shuns have crappy geometry and grinds.


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## slickmamba (May 20, 2019)

Ive had a shun 6" chef and nakiri(both from slt) for almost 10 years now and have only had the tip of the nakiri chip from someone trying to rock chop on it. I haven't really used them in 2 years or so though. 

That being said, all my friends that have shun knives have lots of chips. Dunno if its misuse or bad factory edges, but I would go to say 100% of shun knives I've seen at my friends/family have chips


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## Michi (May 20, 2019)

slickmamba said:


> That being said, all my friends that have shun knives have lots of chips. Dunno if its misuse or bad factory edges, but I would go to say 100% of shun knives I've seen at my friends/family have chips


I suspect it's misuse, especially considering that not all Shuns are made out of VG-MAX; there are SG-2 ones, too.

The reality is that pretty much all of the hard steels are prone to chipping, especially when someone uses them like a Wüsthof. Blue #2 will chip, too, as will ZDP-189. It's just a matter of how much abuse the blade is subjected to.


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## M1k3 (May 20, 2019)

I have 3 co-workers with Shun's. Only damage I've seen happen was because of user error. Take my sample size as you may.


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## rick alen (May 20, 2019)

da_mich* said:


> The Shun premier blades are very very thin and brittle. I restored a lot of them. At most time the chipping is caused by missusing. Cutting meat with bones, frozen things, bread with a hard crust or else can cause this type of damage. I recommend to use it only with soft things like fillets, vegetables & fruits without a core.



I have to say that a "very thin" Shun is an oxi-moron, as in my experience only bone cleavers are thicker at the edge.

I have heard that VG-10 is a finiky HT, errors here can cause voids and other issues, and many Shuns show brittleness because of this, poor control in the HT process. Either chippy or near-impossible to deburr, or perhaps both.


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## Paraffin (May 20, 2019)

slickmamba said:


> That being said, all my friends that have shun knives have lots of chips. Dunno if its misuse or bad factory edges, but I would go to say 100% of shun knives I've seen at my friends/family have chips



I'd vote for abuse, in all those cases. 

Among all of my friends and relatives, I know of only two individuals who know how to take care of knives the same way my wife and I do. One is a professional chef, the other a jeweler and machinist. Everyone else, without exception, is totally clueless. Guaranteed to chip a high-hardness knife like a Shun. It's not the brand, or the heat treatment; it's the owners. 

It's why I only recommend soft stainless knives to these people. When tossed in a sink with silverware, or scraped on a hard surface at 90 degrees, or whacked against a bone, the metal bends instead of chipping, and can be partially restored with a honing rod.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 21, 2019)

When I had more people asking me to sharpen their knives wrote a half page on knife care. Printed copies on my B&W laser printer give them a copy with their sharp knives.


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## Michi (May 26, 2019)

I just saw this. It does look like any difference between VG-10 and VG-Max is minuscule and pragmatically irrelevant.


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## podzap (May 26, 2019)

playero said:


> Do you guys have different knives from your wife? How do you divide them? Do they complain?



Hehe!

I have one of these Shun Kaji KDM-0006 and it is definitely not a "mainsteam" knife when it's list price is almost 400 EUR - it's a cook's knife for people who have enough cash that they are either stupid or just don't give a flip. BTW, I got mine at a local store on clearance for 160 EUR.

It's a real nice knife if you are into bling (stainless, damascus and stylish handle). That's why my wife likes it. I like it because it's heavy, the handle is beefy enough for my large hands, and it's sharp AF. I had owned it for less than a week when I decided to make a french onion soup and I swung the blade toward my stock pot in an attempt to fling some onions off the blade and into the pot. Not in a million years would one of my Henckels blades made contact with the rim of the pot, but guess what?  I made ever so slight contact and got a couple of microchips. They are so small that I haven't been bothered to correct them even up to this point although I do own top notch sharpening stones.

Most of the time I forget that I own this knife, until I see my wife pull it out again and happily use it


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## podzap (May 26, 2019)

PappaG said:


> I am in the pro shun group with one very important caveat: Never buy new. Always buy used at more than 50% off retail. If you do, shuns are not bad at all and I have enjoyed all of mine.



Even better - buy new at more than 50% off retail


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## Carl Kotte (May 26, 2019)

Michi said:


> I just saw this. It does look like any difference between VG-10 and VG-Max is minuscule and pragmatically irrelevant.




Speaking of chipping problems: Burr posted on Shun and chipping in a clip related to the one you posted here.


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## rick alen (May 26, 2019)

Michi said:


> I just saw this. It does look like any difference between VG-10 and VG-Max is minuscule and pragmatically irrelevant.



It's been a while since I've looked but I think the Shun propaganda implied nothing more than Max knives are harder, my take on the meaning here is that means that Shun consistently (relative term) manages 60+ on the HT. It's a Shun, not a Hattori, not a Tanaka, etc. You'll get decent F+F, and for most items not much else.


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## playero (May 26, 2019)

Well since Shun is the top selling brand and when it comes to percentage the brand will be with the largest percent of broken knives. I mean compared to Takeda or Saji or Massimotto Shun sales are in the millions of knives.


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## podzap (May 26, 2019)

playero said:


> Well since Shun is the top selling brand and when it comes to percentage the brand will be with the largest percent of broken knives.



No, it won't have necessarily the largest percentage - but it will very likely have the largest absolute number. That is what percent means - not an absolute number, rather a method to level the playing field when making comparisons.


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## rick alen (May 26, 2019)

Neither playero or poszap are correct here. The QC and design intent with small quality makers like Tanaka is vastly superior to what Shun can or will ever care to produce, Shun knives will simply always be grossly inferior on the whole in comparison to such makers.


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## CoteRotie (May 26, 2019)

rick alen said:


> Neither playero or poszap are correct here. The QC and design intent with small quality makers like Tanaka is vastly superior to what Shun can or will ever care to produce, Shun knives will simply always be grossly inferior on the whole in comparison to such makers.


Which part is incorrect? I don't think they ever claimed that Shun knives were better, only that they sell in vastly higher numbers, and therefore will have a higher absolute number of broken knives. So you can't make a judgement based on the number of broken/misused knives. You can of course make a judgement based on the merits and use of the knives. I'm pretty sure that most here, including those two, would agree that Shuns are not the superior product.


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## rick alen (May 26, 2019)

CoteRotie said:


> Which part is incorrect? I don't think they ever claimed that Shun knives were better, only that they sell in vastly higher numbers, and therefore will have a higher absolute number of broken knives. So you can't make a judgement based on the number of broken/misused knives. You can of course make a judgement based on the merits and use of the knives. I'm pretty sure that most here, including those two, would agree that Shuns are not the superior product.



Broken? We are referring to quality here. Shun users are mostly in the gross-inexperience category, so number of "broken" knives is obviously going to be with Shun which neither poster has stated. And, for intelligence sake, we are talking quality here, in particular QPQ. Shun quality and QPQ is simply going to be vastly inferior to what many small quality makers produce.

Shun's mass marketing philosophies guarantee that design and QC and QPQ will simply be inferior to what many other makers in Japan offer.


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## CoteRotie (May 26, 2019)

rick alen said:


> number of "broken" knives is obviously going to be with Shun which neither poster has stated.



OK, I thought that this part stated it, but maybe I'm not following the point correctly:

Playero:
Well since Shun is the top selling brand and when it comes to percentage the brand will be with the largest percent of broken knives.

Podzap:
No, it won't have necessarily the largest percentage - but it will very likely have the largest absolute number. That is what percent means - not an absolute number, rather a method to level the playing field when making comparisons.

Nobody as far as I can see is arguing that Shun has the superior knife. Neither is anyone saying that they are absolute junk. I think the point is that if you can get one cheap (2nd hand, sale, etc.) they can be perfectly serviceable, maybe not the best choice for the $$ but depending on the knife and specifics maybe a good choice.


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## Keith Sinclair (May 26, 2019)

Retail markup is higher on Shuns that is why culinary students can get them new at a little more than half price.

To get a shiny Damascus 240mm Shun Premere for 120.00 is hard to resist.

The days of MM 240mm nashiji ginsan Tanaka for 120.00 are gone. The Tanaka is a much better gyuto. 

Shuns are sold everywhere knife care is dismal that is the main reason so many get chipped.

Most students get a Shun but some have ordered Tanaka including chef instructors. They are pleased to have a good chef knife.

If you think about it a retail Shun is still around same price as James 240mm ginsan nashiji lite .


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## ian (May 26, 2019)

podzap said:


> No, it won't have necessarily the largest percentage - but it will very likely have the largest absolute number. That is what percent means - not an absolute number, rather a method to level the playing field when making comparisons.



Shun sells 100 knives. Tanaka sells 4. Assume both ‘break’ half the time. Then there are 50 broken shuns, 2 broken Tanakas. So, percentage (or rather, ratio) of broken knives that are Shuns is 50/52, which is much higher than 2/52, the percentage of broken knives that are Tanakas. I think that was playero’s point.


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## rick alen (May 26, 2019)

It has nothing to do with any point I was making, but if a culinary student can get the 10" Classic or Premier knife for a $120 I can see why they would go for it.


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## rick alen (May 26, 2019)

ian said:


> Shun sells 100 knives. Tanaka sells 4. Assume both ‘break’ half the time. Then there are 50 broken shuns, 2 broken Tanakas. So, percentage (or rather, ratio) of broken knives that are Shuns is 50/52, which is much higher than 2/52, the percentage of broken knives that are Tanakas. I think that was playero’s point.



I know the obvious point playero was making, it's a pointless point is the point I was making, as Shun cannot match the quality of the other makers.


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## ian (May 26, 2019)

Yea, I’m not necessarily arguing about that, although I’d say that Shuns are fine for what they are, if overpriced. (What they are is not marketed toward the knife nut, so the profiles, balance, etc... are certainly not optimal for most of us.)

I’m just saying that podzap incorrectly stated that playero doesn’t understand percentages, when actually he does.


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## Michi (May 26, 2019)

rick alen said:


> Shun cannot match the quality of the other makers.


I see this assertion a lot, but I haven't seen it backed up by data. I'd be interested to see _why_ Shuns are supposed to be worse.

Personally, I only have a sample size of one (a 210 mm Shun Hiro Gyuto), which, in my opinion, is a fine knife. F&F are excellent, and the SG2 steel performs well.

Yes, I know, the Shuns are expensive for what they are, and some people don't like the profile. But I can say the same thing for a whole bunch of other Japanese makers. Shigefusa, Masamoto, etc. often cost a lot more than similar knives from other makers, and I don't like the profile of some of those either (and the F&F on my Masamoto KS is nothing to write home about…)

Why don't people bash on, say, Tojiro? That company seems to be somewhat similar. They make mass-produced knives just the same, they have good F&F just the same, the profile isn't to everyone's taste, and some of them aren't particularly good value for money, too.

Is the dislike for Shun just because they have the largest mass-market share? Would Tojiro get the same treatment if they were larger?


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## Keith Sinclair (May 26, 2019)

Michi I have seen Tojiro bashed here. I am guilty as charged on the DP line.


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## ian (May 26, 2019)

I think what irks people is that Shuns are average knives, with ostentatious aethetics and specs that seem designed to lure in people who don't know much, that they have saturated the market, and that they have celebrity endorsements, etc.... Case in point: I started out mainly with Shuns. At first, I was captivated by the aesthetics, but nowadays I don't like how they look.

In contrast, Tojiros are less expensive, e.g. you can get a 210mm Tojiro DP for $62.40 on Amazon at the moment. Their profiles seem in general flatter, in contrast to the Germanic bellies of Shun gyutos, and their look is more utilitarian. They are reasonable, cheap work knives, if sometimes quite thick behind the edge.

----

I should also add after all this that I have a Shun paring knife that I really like. 

Also, `Shuns are average knives' here means average among J-knives of that price range and a bit lower, so is not really an insult.


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## Michi (May 26, 2019)

ian said:


> In contrast, Tojiros are less expensive, e.g. you can get a 210mm Tojiro DP for $62.40 on Amazon at the moment. Their profiles seem in general flatter, in contrast to the Germanic bellies of Shun gyutos, and their look is more utilitarian. They are reasonable, cheap work knives, if sometimes quite thick behind the edge.


Right. Personally, I dislike the DP because of the very flat profile and lack of height at the heel. Outstanding value for money though, no argument there.

There is also the Pro R-2 line, which seems good. The profile seems a little taller and a touch less flat.

The point here is that just because a knife is mass produced doesn't necessarily mean that it is poor quality.

And I can find over-priced knives from lots of Japanese makers other than Shun.

I guess every hobby needs a whipping boy. Shun seems to have taken that mantle…


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## rick alen (May 26, 2019)

+1 to the above by Ian

Aside from geometry, I have heard numerous complaints on the quality of Shun VG-10, but none of that from the likes of Hattori, Ryusin, Tanaka, etc. Of course we've heard complaints about Tojiro VG-10 also, and that's to be expected much the same as with Shun.

Anyways, it's not that Shuns are mass produced, the problem is Shuns are what they are (and I haven't even brought up their so-called warranty department or sharpening service), and they are the topic of discussion here. And I guess anyone is free to bring in any other maker also deserving of a bashing.


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## playero (May 26, 2019)

Still if Shun sells 10 thousand knives and 2% chip that would be 200 knives. That’s more than some other brand sell in a year. In finance this is one of the first rule that is studied


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## playero (May 26, 2019)

Shun has a QA which is good. They cannot account if people cut frozen things or open cans or use a glass or marble place to cut in.


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## podzap (May 26, 2019)

ian said:


> Shun sells 100 knives. Tanaka sells 4. Assume both ‘break’ half the time. Then there are 50 broken shuns, 2 broken Tanakas. So, percentage (or rather, ratio) of broken knives that are Shuns is 50/52, which is much higher than 2/52, the percentage of broken knives that are Tanakas. I think that was playero’s point.



50% is 50%, no matter how you spin it - this is not Trump School for Mathematics  You can not legitimately use the comparison term "per cent" if you are not comparing the number in question against 100. That's what "per cent" means: 1 part in 100. "CENT" directly means 100 in Latin as well as French, from which the term derives.

Anyhow, if you two wanna share some of that stuff you've been smoking then I'm game


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## ian (May 26, 2019)

podzap said:


> 50% is 50%, no matter how you spin it - this is not Trump School for Mathematics  You can not legitimately use the comparison term "per cent" if you are not comparing the number in question against 100. That's what "per cent" means: 1 part in 100. "CENT" directly means 100 in Latin as well as French, from which the term derives.
> 
> Anyhow, if you two wanna share some of that stuff you've been smoking then I'm game



...?

If 50 out of every 52 broken knives are Shuns, then 50/52 * 100% = approx 96% of all broken knives are Shuns. It’s also true that you can talk about the percentage of Shuns that are broken, which is 50%, but that’s different from the percentage of broken knives that are Shuns.

(Probably the reason why I can’t rest until this meaningless point is cleared up is that I am actually a math professor, and not at Trump U...)


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## podzap (May 26, 2019)

rick alen said:


> Broken? We are referring to quality here. Shun users are mostly in the gross-inexperience category



Please, a knife is a tool. People expect it to cut. That is not an unreasonable expectation. If I have used a knife 10 times a day for 50 years then I am not grossly inexperienced. If it were disclaimed on the sales package "I'll chip if you look at me wrong", then nobody would buy it. Shuns are not alone in the realm of "I'll chip if you look at me wrong". There is nothing wrong with the quality, either, they are just "too common" which is why nerds don't like them. Nothing wrong with that, either - it's a preference. They chip because they have a high HRC and a thin edge, just like they are intended to have. Which is perfectly fine if that is what you want.


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## podzap (May 26, 2019)

ian said:


> ...?
> 
> If 50 out of every 52 broken knives are Shuns, then 50/52 * 100% = approx 96% of all broken knives are Shuns. It’s also true that you can talk about the percentage of Shuns that are broken, which is 50%, but that’s different from the percentage of broken knives that are Shuns.
> 
> (Probably the reason why I can’t rest until this meaningless point is cleared up is that I am actually a math professor, and not at Trump U...)



You didn't say the percentage of ALL broken knives that are Shuns. Of course if you want to spin it like that then you are emphasizing things out of proportion. Disproportionate comparisons are not something that math professors do.


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## rick alen (May 26, 2019)

Some people here seem unable to grasp the some very simple concepts. Chipping is just one of a number of attributes to be considered, it doesn't matter if Shun sells 200 or 2000 or 20000 knives. Now let's see how many more times the same irrelevant points get made.


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## ian (May 26, 2019)

Sigh...


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## rick alen (May 26, 2019)

ian said:


> Sigh...



What was that about Ian, someone intimating there are folks here who don't know how to divide by a hundred?


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## Keith Sinclair (May 26, 2019)

Jeeez I am getting confused already. I had a guy bring me a half dozen Shuns all chipped. I took out the chips and kept the worst knife as my fee. He knew it was the worst blade. Had to reshape the blade because had three deep chips.

Thinned it put on a sharp edge used it couple years as a beater blade. Used it a lot carving up Costco chickens. Never did I chip the blade at all.

My father had many wood chisels all carbon. His step son from second marriage split the wood handles and wrapped them in duck tape. The edges of these had large chips in the edge probably going through nails. Need I say more.


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## Bert2368 (May 27, 2019)

Keith Sinclair said:


> My father had many wood chisels all carbon. His step son from second marriage split the wood handles and wrapped them in duck tape. The edges of these had large chips in the edge probably going through nails. Need I say more.



I sharpen my cabinet maker's chisels compulsively, using a rolling jig and progression of wet/dry paper on plate glass, usually finishing with a very fine stone and stropping. You DO NOT NEED A HAMMER with my chisels, just gently pare away at the wood with the chisel guided by hoth hands.

I grabbed the tool roll with these chisels and went to install a new lock set... And the three widest were DULL. And chipped. And burred. ***?!

Turned out she who must be obeyed had spilled a bunch of small drops of paint on the cement floor of her garage. Needed a scraper to get up all these dried on drips! Obviously, she needed the SHARPEST tools available, and had to switch to a still sharp tool as soon as the cutting action of a chisel slowed down...

So I bought a cheap 2" flooring chisel, re ground it to the edge profile of my wood chisels and sharpened it to the same degree, gave it to herself as a gift. She was pleased, has wrecked the edge scraping somethings and presented it back to me for sharpening several times.

And I locked up the good cabinet chisels.


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## podzap (May 27, 2019)

HAHA!


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## Keith Sinclair (May 27, 2019)

Bert I have the remainder of my father's chisels and my grandfather's boat building tools. They still take a very sharp edge.


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