# Anyone using Shirogami #2 in a pro kitchen?



## SaladApe (Sep 19, 2019)

Pros and cons - reactivity, edge retention, etc etc. I go through a lot of red onions, red cabbage. Stainless cladding should take care of the worst reactive stuff but... thoughts?


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## stringer (Sep 19, 2019)

SaladApe said:


> Pros and cons - reactivity, edge retention, etc etc. I go through a lot of red onions, red cabbage. Stainless cladding should take care of the worst reactive stuff but... thoughts?



Stainless cladding removes 99% of the maintenance issues (and soul) of carbon. I use monosteel white number 2, iron clad white 2, and iron clad blue in professional kitchens no problems. I do not baby my knives. If you are not into patina then go with the stainless clad and live life worry free. If you want to get rid of the patina on the core at some point, or even at the end of every shift. Just polish it up with some metal polish and a kitchen rag.


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## SaladApe (Sep 19, 2019)

My current knives are iron-clad and for work I'm starting to find maintaining their patinas to be a real pain. Think I'll take a chance on stainless-clad carbon. Thanks for the answer.


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## Steel+Fire (Sep 19, 2019)

SaladApe said:


> My current knives are iron-clad and for work I'm starting to find maintaining their patinas to be a real pain. Think I'll take a chance on stainless-clad carbon. Thanks for the answer.



Try an AS blade clad in stainless. All of my AS blades have resisted rust well and take a nice solid and very dark gray patina after a while. AS takes a wicked edge that is in my opinion close to being as keen as any other Shirogami or Aogami steel blades I own. I have a White #1 that is clad in SS and I have found it challenging to keep it from getting surface rust on the exposed blade edge even when washed well, dried fully and having oil applied to it. Also my AS blades seem to retain their edge way longer than my Shirogami blades so you will enjoy not having to touch up the edge quite as often in a pro-environment.

I love Shirogami #1 and #2 but if I was looking for a blade for a pro-environment I would step up to AS or even HAP40 just for the edge retention.


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## SaladApe (Sep 19, 2019)

Cool. Yes, I have use of a HAP40 knife and it's pretty great.


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## Gregmega (Sep 19, 2019)

SaladApe said:


> My current knives are iron-clad and for work I'm starting to find maintaining their patinas to be a real pain. Think I'll take a chance on stainless-clad carbon. Thanks for the answer.



It’s a real commitment. They are times when I wonder why the hell I do it as well. But for almost 2 years I used exclusively w2 and I still love it. But I also committed to it and carry an aizu, some wet sandpaper, steel polish, cork, and accoutrements in my kit. I guess it’s about finding a stainless that you can live with, that has that organic soulful feeling. I found 52100 mono-steel kinda meets those demands as it’s less reactive but still feels ‘alive’.


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2019)

I'm fairly certain all blue variants will have the potential of being sharper then white steel. since it has grain refiners in it. and they will also hold on to this edge longer since the have Cr (low) to resist corrosion and also W (high) for tungsten carbides. to me at least it seems to be almost impossible to HT blue-whatever badly.

for a pro kitchen i would get stainless though and a few sharpening stones of good quality instead. much less of a hassle.


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## panda (Sep 19, 2019)

white steel will get 'sharper' than blue steel, i dunno what inferno is going on about. but that means diddly squat in kitchen use as even a 1000 grit edge is perfectly fine for cutting food. 

i prefer white steel because of ease of sharpening. if you are worried about patina, dont even bother with carbon.


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## Gregmega (Sep 19, 2019)

I’m with you on that one, no idea he’s on about... White has the ability to take an almost violent edge with like 10 swipes on an aizu. That’s why it still rules imo, & patina is just a price you pay for the front row seat.


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## turbochef422 (Sep 19, 2019)

I like white 2 for the kitchen, it gets sharp fast. Looses it quick but easy to touch up as it comes right back. I’ve had super reactive white 1 blades but always a consistent patina with white 2. White 2 and Blue 1 are my favorite carbons


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## M1k3 (Sep 19, 2019)

I wouldn't be opposed to using Shirogami, especially with none to very light board contact. I much prefer the edge retention of the Blues though. The little added chromium is just a bonus in the "not rusting as easily but still forming a patina" department.


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2019)

panda said:


> white steel will get 'sharper' than blue steel, i dunno what inferno is going on about. but that means diddly squat in kitchen use as even a 1000 grit edge is perfectly fine for cutting food.
> 
> i prefer white steel because of ease of sharpening. if you are worried about patina, dont even bother with carbon.



ok why?? i have a feeling that you only _think_ that it might be so. when it is infact the opposite. according to science.

pure carbon steel is not the finest grained. why would it be? why would you then add grain refiners such as cr and w to carbon steel? doesn't make sense.


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## inferno (Sep 19, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I’m with you on that one, no idea he’s on about... White has the ability to take an almost violent edge with like 10 swipes on an aizu. That’s why it still rules imo, & patina is just a price you pay for the front row seat.



because it has next to zero abrasive wear resistance yeah?? is that now some how a good thing?

what about adhesive wear resistance? where would you place white then?


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## lemeneid (Sep 19, 2019)

Yeah no idea what you’re smoking. White is one of the purest steels around, that’s how it gets so amazingly sharp. You keep harping on about science but I see no science in here.

The only steels I’ve experienced that are sharper than white are 125SC and Denka steel but the differences are too close to call.


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## panda (Sep 19, 2019)

sharpest edge ive been able to achieve on any knife was on a hinoura white2.


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## Gregmega (Sep 19, 2019)

inferno said:


> because it has next to zero abrasive wear resistance yeah?? is that now some how a good thing?
> 
> what about adhesive wear resistance? where would you place white then?



This has zero to do with the thread but I’ll bite- I just prefer it. There ya go. And tbh I don’t care about the science, I like the way white cuts, I like the feel on the stones, I like how quick it takes an edge, and no amount of nerding out will change that. I also like all the other steels I use for their own reasons, but the gobbleygoo coming out of your keyboard won’t change how I feel about them either.


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## GoodMagic (Sep 19, 2019)

Honestly there are so many factors that go into how sharp a blade gets like heat treat that I don’t find general statements about one steel or another very helpful. Burke 52100, Rader W2, Hide blue 2, Hinora white 2, etc all get screaming sharp in my experience. The steel and edge geometry then affect retention in my experience. I do love simple carbon steel . Stainless has no soul, but I get its appeal, just not for me.


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## Gregmega (Sep 19, 2019)

turbochef422 said:


> I like white 2 for the kitchen, it gets sharp fast. Looses it quick but easy to touch up as it comes right back. I’ve had super reactive white 1 blades but always a consistent patina with white 2. White 2 and Blue 1 are my favorite carbons



Gotta agree here. The Wat Maz combo is just fun.


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## Eitan78 (Sep 19, 2019)

White 2 gets pretty damm sharp in no time , stays sharp enough for any high volume prep work and it’s cheap. Plus if considering reactive cladding a problem, you can always get a stainless clad with white core. Plenty of great options out there. mazaki, wakui etc’.


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## wind88 (Sep 19, 2019)

and don’t forget the TFs


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## Eitan78 (Sep 19, 2019)

wind88 said:


> and don’t forget the TFs



TF is a waste of money


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## panda (Sep 19, 2019)

Eitan78 said:


> TF is a waste of money


tf maboroshi has one of the best heat treats ive ever come across. the knife itself is mediocre but the steel is worth it alone.


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## Gregmega (Sep 19, 2019)

panda said:


> tf maboroshi has one of the best heat treats ive ever come across. the knife itself is mediocre but the steel is worth it alone.



The steel is crazy on that one. But funny enough, I’ve had a few mazaki that hold edges for a week in high volume with only a hone every now and again. #nohypejustthegoods


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## Eitan78 (Sep 19, 2019)

panda said:


> tf maboroshi has one of the best heat treats ive ever come across. the knife itself is mediocre but the steel is worth it alone.



I believe you, but buying a good ground and finish with TF is a gamble, 1 in 10-15 chances to get a good one. 
you will probably get an awful knife and will have to spend hours on the course stone to fix all the low spots.

Many knives has great heat treat, I’m not gambling on a TF, plenty of safe options and many great other makers with good reputation out there.


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## panda (Sep 19, 2019)

let me tell you about my favorite white2 heat treat. its from discontinued yoshikane line, stainless clad kasumi. it was in just the right sweet spot of combining great feedback and retention. felt grippy on stones yet lasted a lot longer than a KS and edge will come right back with a few strokes on mac black. the knife itself was not for me though so i let it go.

eitan - i agree, its a hassle. plus i hate stainless cladding. if an iron clad version was available i would take a gamble however as an expensive project beater.


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## panda (Sep 19, 2019)

anyways, we got off topic a bit. to help the original poster.

i think the best steel for pro kitchen use is heiji semi-stainless. it is freaking amazing stuff. benefits of carbon without its cons. win-win. absolute bargain of a price too. i am glad there is no hype on these.


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## Qapla' (Sep 19, 2019)

If this risks thread-hijacking, feel free to take my post to private messaging: How would a TF compare to, say, a Masahisa Shirogami-1 Western?


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## panda (Sep 19, 2019)

never heard of it


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## v647c (Sep 19, 2019)

Do you think all white 2 is the same? Even in billet form they are graded.

Also, adhesive wear resistance in the kitchen? What?



inferno said:


> because it has next to zero abrasive wear resistance yeah?? is that now some how a good thing?
> 
> what about adhesive wear resistance? where would you place white then?


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## Eitan78 (Sep 19, 2019)

panda said:


> let me tell you about my favorite white2 heat treat. its from discontinued yoshikane line, stainless clad kasumi. it was in just the right sweet spot of combining great feedback and retention. felt grippy on stones yet lasted a lot longer than a KS and edge will come right back with a few strokes on mac black. the knife itself was not for me though so i let it go.
> 
> eitan - i agree, its a hassle. plus i hate stainless cladding. if an iron clad version was available i would take a gamble however as an expensive project beater.



My most use white 2 knife is an old ironclad wakui that’s has an insane edge and great retention, im pretty sure the stainless clad is just as good.
I think I paid $190 for it.
the stainless goes for $169, probably the beast bang for the buck I ever used.
This is a very inexpensive project beater that ended up one of my all time favorite knife 
(Knife is new in the picture)


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## cheflife15 (Sep 19, 2019)

I just bought a kono white 2 Fuji so ill be moving to that as my daily kitchen driver.


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## panda (Sep 19, 2019)

i didnt know iron clad version existed!!


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## Eitan78 (Sep 19, 2019)

panda said:


> i didnt know iron clad version existed!!



JNS sold them many years ago


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## Gregmega (Sep 19, 2019)

panda said:


> i didnt know iron clad version existed!!



It was under the label Toshihirosaku iirc.


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## Eitan78 (Sep 19, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> It was under the label Toshihirosaku iirc.



That’s the one


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## Forty Ounce (Sep 19, 2019)

panda said:


> white steel will get 'sharper' than blue steel, i dunno what inferno is going on about. but that means diddly squat in kitchen use as even a 1000 grit edge is perfectly fine for cutting food.
> 
> i prefer white steel because of ease of sharpening. if you are worried about patina, dont even bother with carbon.


Well said.


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## lemeneid (Sep 19, 2019)

Qapla' said:


> If this risks thread-hijacking, feel free to take my post to private messaging: How would a TF compare to, say, a Masahisa Shirogami-1 Western?


Tsukiji Masahisa? Thats a tourist-trap knife for anyone who went to Tsukiji. Slightly better than Shuns and Miyabis but thats not saying much.


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## Qapla' (Sep 19, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Tsukiji Masahisa? Thats a tourist-trap knife for anyone who went to Tsukiji. Slightly better than Shuns and Miyabis but thats not saying much.


Thanks for that info.


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## labor of love (Sep 19, 2019)

panda said:


> let me tell you about my favorite white2 heat treat. its from discontinued yoshikane line, stainless clad kasumi. it was in just the right sweet spot of combining great feedback and retention. felt grippy on stones yet lasted a lot longer than a KS and edge will come right back with a few strokes on mac black. the knife itself was not for me though so i let it go.
> 
> eitan - i agree, its a hassle. plus i hate stainless cladding. if an iron clad version was available i would take a gamble however as an expensive project beater.


The reason that yoshi was so bad ass is because it was old stock and made before what’s his name retired.


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## labor of love (Sep 19, 2019)

@panda reg cheap wakui hairline is pretty nice too best deal sub $200 besides Tanaka


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## JBroida (Sep 19, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Tsukiji Masahisa? Thats a tourist-trap knife for anyone who went to Tsukiji. Slightly better than Shuns and Miyabis but thats not saying much.


man... i'm not sure i agree with that entirely. I've seen quite nice things in there before, bought a couple many years back too. The prices were fair. Of course, they had more stuff from seki than some of the other nearby shops, so i can see how you might have felt that way. The lady who runs it was super nice when i bought things (albiet a long time ago).


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## Kippington (Sep 20, 2019)

inferno said:


> I'm fairly certain all blue variants will have the potential of being sharper then white steel. since it has grain refiners in it.


You're mixing up some of the science there. Don't forget that sharpening cuts _*through *_the grains of steel, throwing a spanner in your statement above.
If you had a White #3 blade with grains the size of marbles, you could still get it razor sharp... way sharper than anyone needs in a kitchen.

Carbides are slightly different, but that's a topic for another thread.


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## lemeneid (Sep 20, 2019)

JBroida said:


> man... i'm not sure i agree with that entirely. I've seen quite nice things in there before, bought a couple many years back too. The prices were fair. Of course, they had more stuff from seki than some of the other nearby shops, so i can see how you might have felt that way. The lady who runs it was super nice when i bought things (albiet a long time ago).


The knives felt a little overpriced to me. I bought a VG10 Kikuichi in Nara for about 70 bucks. I saw and handled a similar knife at Masahisa for $250 and that turned me off I guess. Nice knife with decent F+F, but I got turned off by the price. Maybe the situation's changed, its been a while since I was there too.


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## SaladApe (Sep 20, 2019)

Most enjoyable thread - thanks for all the answers!

For me, I like the feel of carbon on the stones - hands down a winner over stainless.
I have a confession to make: I've been using the green-handled kitchen knock-about knives and the sheer lack of hassle is... seductive. But I'm hoping a thin stainless clad w2 240 will give me some of the joy I need in my life right now.

Panda, yeah, the semi-stainless Heiji has been my grail for a while.


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## Sharpchef (Sep 20, 2019)

In my opinion as a pro chef, shirogami is the worst steel in kitchen. 

Super chippy and the badest edge retention. Nearly any knifesteel ist better  (happy discussion!) 

Greets Sebastian.


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## never mind (Sep 20, 2019)

Popcorns arrive...


Second round


Nom nom nom


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## suntravel (Sep 20, 2019)

I am not a pro chef, but a knifemaker and grinder for pro chefs an like cooking or preparing food for my 6 dogs....

most effective imho ist Global or swedish steel like AEBL ect and a honing steel, best compromise regarding edgeholding an ease of sharpening 1.2562, V4E, CPM 3V....

longest edgeholding K390 V23 or REX 121, but needs longer time and more skills to sharpen properly.

Its easy to get all steels to HHT5, and only sharpend to 1-5K steel will not make any difference regarding sharpness in no time.

Fine grain steel will only make a little difference sharpend very fine like for rarzors.

But with the right sharpening stuff you can get even HSSE without PM and large carbides to HHT5 

Regards

Uwe


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## Ivang (Sep 20, 2019)

Only w2 in my kit at the moment is on my ginga suji, which is monosteel, hardly sees any board contact and is only used to slice protein. Only white steel is a maboroshi gyuto.
Definitely no iron clad knives at work. Favorite steel for work is r2, tanakas r2 if possible.


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## turbochef422 (Sep 20, 2019)

Tanaka R2 and Tanaka Ginsan are up there for me too


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## mack (Sep 21, 2019)

I would never use shirogami in my kitchen. I'm a friend of stainless steels, so AEB-L or 14C28N combined with a high quality honing rod (dick micro) is my first choice. If carbon, I'd prefer 1.2519 with a dick micro or 1.2562 with stones.

Mack.


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## Kippington (Sep 21, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> In my opinion as a pro chef, shirogami is the worst steel in kitchen.
> Super chippy and the badest edge retention.


Larrin's testing over on KnifeSteelNerds showed that 1095 has surprisingly low toughness, which translates to a chippy edge. Perhaps Shirogami #2 (which is 99.5% the same) has the same issue?


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## suntravel (Sep 21, 2019)

Yes Shiro has low toughness and with waterhardening and only a few seconds temper even lower, with modern HT it works decent but stll low end 

Regards

Uwe


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## never mind (Sep 21, 2019)

Kippington said:


> Larrin's testing over on KnifeSteelNerds showed that 1095 has surprisingly low toughness, which translates to a chippy edge. Perhaps Shirogami #2 (which is 99.5% the same) has the same issue?



Kippington, you are brave to stand up for scientific experiments & evidences. May the force be with you


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## labor of love (Sep 21, 2019)

How obsessed are you with a fresh edge? Like, fresh off the finishing stone? If you want this sorta fresh edge all the time or every other day in a pro environment or something it makes sense to use shirogami steel. If your goal is the freshest edge you might as well grab the steel that sharpens up easy and quick because you’ll never be happy with a week old edge.
White 1 and White 2 doesn’t have the best edge retention but in the right hands it doesn’t need it.

I understand why some love it and also why others don’t.


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## suntravel (Sep 21, 2019)

labor of love said:


> How obsessed are you with a fresh edge? Like, fresh off the finishing stone? If you want this sorta fresh edge all the time or every other day in a pro environment or something it makes sense to use shirogami steel. If your goal is the freshest edge you might as well grab the steel that sharpens up easy and quick because you’ll never be happy with a week old edge.
> White 1 and White 2 doesn’t have the best edge retention but in the right hands it doesn’t need it.
> 
> I understand why some love it and also why others don’t.



I am very obsessed with sharpness 

One way for sure is to touch up several times a day, but i like knifes holding a fresh very keen edge for a longer time 

Regards

Uwe


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## Sharpchef (Sep 21, 2019)

Me too! 

I think toughness, a good grind and good edge retention should be the main target for professional users. It will be always a matter of sharpening angle (over 35 degree), the matching finish for the steel etc.

In pro environment for a few tasks iron cladding is not acceptable, stainless clad is also not ideal because of it`s softness, but works ok. 

What sharpness do pro chef`s need ? I think it is most important to stay healthy and don `t cut in your fingers, right ? So we have to sharpen a kitchen knife to the point that it cut vedgetable skin`s properly, and don`t glide in your fingers..... 

This is possible with different steels and sharpening methods. 

I use up to 4 different approach knife sets at work, Gyuto, Petty, Slicer.....

Main Set, all carbon`s like (1.3505, 1.2008, 1.2442) all at lower hardness, works for about 3-4 weeks without stones just DICK Micro Steel. 
Sharpened up to 8k Shapton Pro. After this they need (Gyuto as main knife requires the most work) a proper grind on stones. 

Stainless set (tuned old Zwilling/DICK/Global knifes). Sharpened with Shapton Pro 2k and daily DICK Micro steeling. This works for months....

"Modern" steel set (PM Steels like HAP 40/Р12М3К5Ф2-мп (You can also use M390, K390, Vanadis 23). Sharpened to the maximum (30k Shapton + Natural stone) This works fine for about 2 weeks, steeling not god/possible. After this depending on used abbrasives can take very much time to resharpen. (It is easy and fast if you use soft bond diamond abrassives) . 

My Sweetspot 1.2562 sharpened to the max. as above (with other matching natural stone)... Works for a week. This is the most effective method for me, every week 5min. touchup on stones, that`s it. 

I often tryed Shirogami knifes in pro environment and i don`t have the time for 3 touchups daily... This is not effective. 

Greets Sebastian.


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

lemeneid said:


> Yeah no idea what you’re smoking. White is one of the purest steels around, that’s how it gets so amazingly sharp. You keep harping on about science but I see no science in here.
> 
> The only steels I’ve experienced that are sharper than white are 125SC and Denka steel but the differences are too close to call.



it might be the purest but does it get finer grained than low alloyed (cr/v/w/b/nb etc) similar steels? kinda doubt that. 

i can get blue sharpen than white. and its easier too. and not only that it stays that ultrasharp just a little longer too. 

White rusts in my kitchen just from existing in my kitchen. i wonder how that affects sharpness... and i dont live in a jungle climate either.


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

v647c said:


> Do you think all white 2 is the same? Even in billet form they are graded.
> 
> Also, adhesive wear resistance in the kitchen? What?



there are 2 types of wear. adhesive and abrasive. if you cut fat plastics for instance then its not abrasive wear anymore.


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## lemeneid (Sep 21, 2019)

labor of love said:


> How obsessed are you with a fresh edge? Like, fresh off the finishing stone? If you want this sorta fresh edge all the time or every other day in a pro environment or something it makes sense to use shirogami steel. If your goal is the freshest edge you might as well grab the steel that sharpens up easy and quick because you’ll never be happy with a week old edge.
> White 1 and White 2 doesn’t have the best edge retention but in the right hands it doesn’t need it.
> 
> I understand why some love it and also why others don’t.


Imo, as long as it doesn’t cut acidic food, the sharpness can be sustained for quite a long time.

Ever since I thinned and perfected my Maboroshi, it hasn’t needed sharpening yet but I still get that fresh off the stones sharpness. All I’ve done is just strop it on diamond compound after every meal prep I do. And this knife has gone through the gamut of foods like crispy pork skin, fresh crusty bread and steaks, hard foods. 

Never touched tomatoes or citrus though, I tried it and I feel after some tomatoes it does lose its bite quite a bit. It will still cut most things, but it’s not that crisp anymore.


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

panda said:


> but that means diddly squat in kitchen use as even a 1000 grit edge is perfectly fine for cutting food.



1000 grit might be "enough" but i kinda doubt pros will be happy with that. i mean why buy a knife that can take an 8k edge and put a 1k edge on there? its like buying a ferrari f40 and put 50 dollar tires on it. if my goal was to only use a 1k edge i would probably get something in s110v and sharpen it every leap year. done!


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## Gregmega (Sep 21, 2019)

Most pros I know don’t go above 3k. There’s no point other than a hone. Anything above 3k is almost counterproductive and a waste of time. Unless of course your doing some seriously technical work like soft protein (sushi- and even most those guys don’t). At/above 8k you’re going backwards for a pro that does any kind of volume. All tooth is gone. And that tooth is why white is so good for pro kitchens imo. 

Perfect example- Marko 52100. At 3k it will chew threw your cutting board. At 8k it’s just not angry or toothy, it’s a tamed beast. But again I don’t know the science or really care, just real world observation here.


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## Kippington (Sep 21, 2019)

inferno said:


> 1000 grit might be "enough" but i kinda doubt pros will be happy with that. i mean why buy a knife that can take an 8k edge and put a 1k edge on there?


You're totally off with this one. There are a lot of pro users on this forum, Gregmega, Panda and myself to name a few. High polish is a waste of time for us, Greg laid it out really well in the last post.

HHT5 and all that uber sharp stuff is overkill. You think it's like a Ferrari with $50 dollar tires, we think it's like racing slicks on a pickup truck. Sure your [pickup truck]/[kitchen knife] will work better [around a dry race-track]/[shaving someone's head]... but _why_?


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## MarkC (Sep 21, 2019)

Kippington said:


> You're totally off with this one. There are a lot of pro users on this forum, Gregmega, Panda and myself to name a few. High polish is a waste of time for us, Greg laid it out really well in the last post.
> 
> HHT5 and all that uber sharp stuff is overkill. You think it's like a Ferrari with $50 dollar tires, we think it's like racing slicks on a pickup truck. Sure your [pickup truck]/[kitchen knife] will work better [around a dry race-track]/[shaving someone's head]... but _why_?


Would really love a thread on this very topic. Not on the sharpening forum but here where it is dicussed by pros with the knives and stones they use.


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## Kippington (Sep 21, 2019)

MarkC said:


> Would really love a thread on this very topic. Not on the sharpening forum but here where it is dicussed by pros with the knives and stones they use.


I think we all try higher grit edges, then get sick of the maintenance involved. Anything with board contact (which is most of what we do) and acids in the case of carbon knives will kill a polished edge in a really short time... I'm talking before you finish one cutting job, say dicing a 50 lb box of tomatoes.

Eventually we get sick of these disruptions to the flow and stick with lower grits, which lengthens the useful lifetime of the edge. I believe it has a lot to do with the increased surface area of the edge (more microscopic peaks and valleys), plus the idea that we're using a sawing motion (pull/push) much more often than a chopping motion.

You'd also look like a bit of a prick if you pulled out a sharpening stone to refresh your tools while everyone around you is busy preparing for a busy restaurant service. Abrasive rods are a better tolerated in this situation.

None of this really applies to a home user. The sheer amount of food prep and the sense of urgency just doesn't translate over to the home kitchen.


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Most pros I know don’t go above 3k. There’s no point other than a hone. Anything above 3k is almost counterproductive and a waste of time. Unless of course your doing some seriously technical work like soft protein (sushi- and even most those guys don’t). At/above 8k you’re going backwards for a pro that does any kind of volume. All tooth is gone. And that tooth is why white is so good for pro kitchens imo.
> 
> Perfect example- Marko 52100. At 3k it will chew threw your cutting board. At 8k it’s just not angry or toothy, it’s a tamed beast. But again I don’t know the science or really care, just real world observation here.



i agree. i take almost nothing above 3k. Only some blues go to 12k just for fun of course. and also some stainless i take to 12k just for fun to see if it will work (and it does usually). 3k seems to be the magic point for me. its very sharp and the stones seems to work well around this grit. i do however like my 4k glass and 4k kitayama, but i can only use those on some steels. otherwise its just a waste of time.


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## MarkC (Sep 21, 2019)

inferno said:


> i agree. i take almost nothing above 3k. Only some blues go to 12k just for fun of course. and also some stainless i take to 12k just for fun to see if it will work (and it does usually). 3k seems to be the magic point for me. its very sharp and the stones seems to work well around this grit. i do however like my 4k glass and 4k kitayama, but i can only use those on some steels. otherwise its just a waste of time.


Thanks. I have a couple of follow ups. What grit do you typically start with? When using the 3K are you just polishing / cleaning up edges? Do you ever use a micro bevel using the 3K stones?


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## suntravel (Sep 21, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Most pros I know don’t go above 3k. There’s no point other than a hone. Anything above 3k is almost counterproductive and a waste of time. Unless of course your doing some seriously technical work like soft protein (sushi- and even most those guys don’t). At/above 8k you’re going backwards for a pro that does any kind of volume. All tooth is gone. And that tooth is why white is so good for pro kitchens imo.
> 
> Perfect example- Marko 52100. At 3k it will chew threw your cutting board. At 8k it’s just not angry or toothy, it’s a tamed beast. But again I don’t know the science or really care, just real world observation here.



Jep thats a good point, the lower the egde retention is the better it is to stick to low grit and a toothy edge...

... but to make often TU with 3K removes lots of steel , so you have to thin out in short time. Thats why using a fine honing steel works well, keeps the toothy edge without removing lots of steel.

On the other side modern high end steels will really hold a fine edge a very long time and will easy cut tomatoes after 60kg or more and will after that only need a TU on fine stones with very little steel to be removed.

Regards

Uwe


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## Gregmega (Sep 21, 2019)

So with that being said- the micro bevel on a well positioned geometry will crush all day long and come back with a couple swipes (for me an aizu I keep in my backpack) and Bob’s your uncle. White isn’t chippy if you know what you’re doing on the stones. And I’m no supreme being on the stones, but the guys having trouble with chippy whites clearly need to succumb to the gods of the microbevel. And cry they will no more.


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

MarkC said:


> Thanks. I have a couple of follow ups. What grit do you typically start with? When using the 3K are you just polishing / cleaning up edges? Do you ever use a micro bevel using the 3K stones?



well first i flatten the bevel on all new knives. I usually do this on a 220 shapton.
then the 500 just because i have it. then 1k. then 3 or 4k. this is for the blade side. this can take everything from 5 minutes to 2 hours. depending on how concave the factory grind is.

at this point i have a "zero edge" and then i usually do a microbevel with a 2k then the finishing stone whatever now it might be.

but if i take them to 12k then i do maybe a 4-6k before the 12k. it goes faster then. but i found you can go from a 1k to a 12k without problem. it just takes a few minutes longer.

for a 3k finish you can start with a 500 or a 1k. but you will probably only need to do this very seldom though.

i put a microbevel on all knives i have. no zero grinds.

edit: also when stopping at a 3k i try to do the 3k edge full out. i'm not trying to deburr or strop the 1k edge with a few strokes.


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## ian (Sep 21, 2019)

Any of you pros actually use a chromium oxide loaded strop at work instead of a steel? E.g., I have a Catcheside nakiri now that I put a 3k edge on and the strop brings it back to life every time. Seems to work better on that one than my White #2 knives, though, for some reason...


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## HRC_64 (Sep 21, 2019)

IMHO anyone using iron cladding in a pro environment needs their head checked


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## Gregmega (Sep 21, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> IMHO anyone using iron cladding in a pro environment needs their head checked



I’m guessing you’re not a pro.


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

greg regarding chippyness. i dont think any knife i have bougth was outright chippy, but some steels/HT's are chippier than others. I think the least chippy one i have tried is the mac aus8. tough as nails. and takes a good edge too and feels good on the stones too.


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## sumofruit (Sep 21, 2019)

Kippington said:


> You'd also look like a bit of a prick if you pulled out a sharpening stone to refresh your tools while everyone around you is busy preparing for a busy restaurant service. Abrasive rods are a better tolerated in this situation.



 Hilarious!



Kippington said:


> None of this really applies to a home user. The sheer amount of food prep and the sense of urgency just doesn't translate over to the home kitchen.



What grit edge do the pros here (and everyone else) generally use at home, for standard meat and veggie prep?


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## Gregmega (Sep 21, 2019)

Yeah I’ve had the same feeling, only one knife I’ve ever owned made me say ‘damn this is chippy’. But otherwise a little preventative maintenance has saved me a lot of hardship. And ask anyone- especially Jon at JKI- I’m pretty hard on my tools. But I’ve never gotten a feeling that whites in general are more brittle than any others as a whole.


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## Gregmega (Sep 21, 2019)

sumofruit said:


> What grit edge do the pros here (and everyone else) generally use at home, for standard meat and veggie prep?



Same as I would in the pro setting, unless I’ve nerded out on a knife (which I almost never have time to do). Most pros are pretty utilitarian in this paradigm, but for the odd Kasumi Kev.


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

i once dinged my almost zero edged 12k sharpened skd/d2 yoshikane right into the kitchen faucet. and this is supposedly the chippiest of them all pretty much. it bent. no chips.

i have however microchipped (100:eds of them) an r2 knife by just cutting cardboard. go figure.


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## suntravel (Sep 21, 2019)

try this with a thin Shiro and cut tamatoes after 2 weeks without touching a stone 










































This is the kitchen of the Pro Chef testing knives, no convinence stuff, all fresh cuted by him self, must go trough hard cheese, chocolate, an he is cutting very fast with good impact but clean straight... 

Shiro chips in his kitchen, good tool steel with good HT not, also a Zwilling Kramer ( 51200 steel) thinned out will work for him without problems or chipping...

Regards

Uwe


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

is that some vanadis blade? hss? i see crucible now makes a copy of vanadis 4. 4v or v4 or whatever. have you tried it?

I remember seeing a haslinger in vanadis4 about 10-15 years ago, supposedly it was the sh1t. but it was unobtanium then.


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## M1k3 (Sep 21, 2019)

inferno said:


> 1000 grit might be "enough" but i kinda doubt pros will be happy with that. i mean why buy a knife that can take an 8k edge and put a 1k edge on there? its like buying a ferrari f40 and put 50 dollar tires on it. if my goal was to only use a 1k edge i would probably get something in s110v and sharpen it every leap year. done!



I find between 1k and 3-4k best suited for our kitchen. Enough bite for tomato, zucchini and egg plant skins. Refined enough to not be a complete saw.



ian said:


> Any of you pros actually use a cromium oxide loaded strop at work instead of a steel? E.g., I have a Catcheside nakiri now that I put a 3k edge on and the strop brings it back to life every time. Seems to work better on that one than my White #2 knives, though, for some reason...



I use a balsa strop with diamond paste. Fits perfectly in one of my backpack pockets.



sumofruit said:


> Hilarious!
> 
> 
> 
> What grit edge do the pros here (and everyone else) generally use at home, for standard meat and veggie prep?



See my response to Inferno above.


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## suntravel (Sep 21, 2019)

inferno said:


> is that some vanadis blade? hss? i see crucible now makes a copy of vanadis 4. 4v or v4 or whatever. have you tried it?
> 
> I remember seeing a haslinger in vanadis4 about 10-15 years ago, supposedly it was the sh1t. but it was unobtanium then.



Yes this one is V23, K390 works as well, but any other good tool steel or AEB-L ect. will do the job without chipping with similar grind, but not as long maybe 

Time is not standing still, and Shiro (UHB20 as clean) ist very old, like to compete with an 1950 F1 car today 

Regards

Uwe


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## SilverSwarfer (Sep 21, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> I’m guessing you’re not a pro.


I’ve been working with iron-clad in restaurant production environments since 1999. In the past 20yrs I’ve continued to buy more iron clad knives for the same usage. The secret behind successful use is no big secret: maintain your tools properly. 

I also don’t like patina. May seem counterintuitive to most to use reactive knives. My “problem” is that I simply enjoy polishing and sharpening. I actually like maintaining my tools (a little) more than I like actually using the tools. For me, I’m closer to the soul of the blade when/if I’m bringing it back to a perfect (enough) state after some heavy use. 

SS cladding is great for practical reasons. For me the drawback is on the stones. Thinning SS clad knives is an awful chore. I’ve not found a knife/stone combination that felt “right” when it comes to thinning SS clad. Iron clad knives are completely different in this regard.


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## SilverSwarfer (Sep 21, 2019)

ian said:


> Any of you pros actually use a chromium oxide loaded strop at work instead of a steel? E.g., I have a Catcheside nakiri now that I put a 3k edge on and the strop brings it back to life every time. Seems to work better on that one than my White #2 knives, though, for some reason...


I carry 2 strops in my kit:
8 micron cBN on ‘roo 
1.5 micron cBN (nano cloth on glass)

I do stop n strop during service!


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## Sharpchef (Sep 21, 2019)

The blade i used for the pictures is a suntravel Vanadis 23, sharpened to HHT 5 with Shapton Pro up to 30k and a good Nakayama Kiita after this treatment!... No Strop with compound etc... this is not good for blades, and edge retention. 

Everybody who tryd an edge like this never ever come back to shirogami..... This Blade was still sharper after one week prep then any shirogami after 5 minutes in my hand.....

I think a knife like this needs to be thinned every 2 years (in busy pro business!) .... Remember i can cut two weeks and after this, make a touchup with 8/12/30k Shapton and a natural. 
That`s it... 10minutes to go. With shirogami i had spend at least one or even two or three hours on stones..... And as you talked about sharpness... We finish with HHT-5--- sharper then most Razor blades.... And still cutting strong through "problem" foods like tomatoe, pepper, onion skin.... 
I even cut tetrapacks, vaccum plastics... etc... everytime with mostly one knife! 

Greets Sebastian.


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## Barmoley (Sep 21, 2019)

inferno said:


> is that some vanadis blade? hss? i see crucible now makes a copy of vanadis 4. 4v or v4 or whatever. have you tried it?
> 
> I remember seeing a haslinger in vanadis4 about 10-15 years ago, supposedly it was the sh1t. but it was unobtanium then.


Cpm4v is basically the same or very similar to vanadis 4 extra, slightly different from vanadis 4. Any steel in this class though is tougher and more wear resistant than white steels.


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## ian (Sep 21, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> No Strop with compound etc... this is not good for blades, and edge retention.



Can you explain why? I do often worry about overpolishing the edge, but I figure the teeth are big enough to survive under stropping, and that stropping will mostly just clean up some debris and refine the apex slightly.


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## suntravel (Sep 21, 2019)

Stropping with fine compound will kill the bite and rounds of the edge, get rid of the burr right of the stone is imho the best way, learned that after +30 years stropping 

Regards

Uwe


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## Sharpchef (Sep 21, 2019)

ian said:


> Can you explain why? I do often worry about overpolishing the edge, but I figure the teeth are big enough to survive under stropping, and that stropping will mostly just clean up some debris and refine the apex slightly.



Even with razors, and i am well known in BRB as well, stropping is counter productive. It really kill the edge. You may try this by yourself... 

Test simple steels like shirogami, after a stone, or with compound strop after stone.... this is a step backward for sure. 
You may realize this after a few minutes of use. 

Greets Sebastian.


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## labor of love (Sep 21, 2019)

I strop on the stone that’s sitting right in front of me. About the only special tool I use when sharpening is a felt deburring block which I think is a step up from a cork screw. Even that feels a little bourgeoisie.


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> The blade i used for the pictures is a suntravel Vanadis 23, sharpened to HHT 5 with Shapton Pro up to 30k and a good Nakayama Kiita after this treatment!... No Strop with compound etc... this is not good for blades, and edge retention.
> 
> Everybody who tryd an edge like this never ever come back to shirogami..... This Blade was still sharper after one week prep then any shirogami after 5 minutes in my hand.....
> 
> ...



yeah i can imagine this blade is quite awesome. next gen sh1t for sure. i'll see if i can get hold of some uddeholm caldie at work from some used machine some time. its the toughest of the tough. yeah not quite the same but that alloys is designed to chop other metals lol.


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## Sharpchef (Sep 21, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I strop on the stone that’s sitting right in front of me. About the only special tool I use when sharpening is a felt deburring block which I think is a step up from a cork screw. Even that feels a little bourgeoisie.



Also not good for the edge... Sorry but to remove an burr from the edge, short edge leading strokes are the way to go! Learn with straight razors, these guys mostly know their stuff... Untreated leather may be useful for sharpening tests like HHT or something, but not necessary. Any compound on leather strops is even more bad for the edge. 

It would be cool if some pro chefs here would join a testing group and we can send some professional (no offense here!) sharpened blades to them to test. Most of you will change the mind and never ever come back to Shirogami and 3times touchup a day.... 

I am a pro chef and i run a forum like this (smaller, more freaky nerds on there) and most of us are absolutely convinced that a modern PM HSS Steel with proper sharpening can outlast anything...

Ok just for the sake of it we sharpen with so called Jiigs (but on Benchstones, so we can still thin out if necessary....) So no bad things about it. 

Greets Sebastian.


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

ian said:


> Can you explain why? I do often worry about overpolishing the edge, but I figure the teeth are big enough to survive under stropping, and that stropping will mostly just clean up some debris and refine the apex slightly.



my personal opinion is that stropping is best left for razors, but thats just me. i have never had problems with burrs but i finish with side alternating swipes on the stones.


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## Sharpchef (Sep 21, 2019)

inferno said:


> yeah i can imagine this blade is quite awesome. next gen sh1t for sure. i'll see if i can get hold of some uddeholm caldie at work from some used machine some time. its the toughest of the tough. yeah not quite the same but that alloys is designed to chop other metals lol.



This was exactly what i thought before testing stuff like this ! 

But think of the pros stuff like this can bring to you! 

An edge, sharpened to HHT 5.. Stays about 1 Day at a sharpness level you loose with shirogami after a few cuts... and after this you can cut 2 weeks... in Pro business. Still cutting tomatoe skin, onion skin, pepper skin... The steel is not stainless so it got soul too! But will show you it`s soul after months and not after a few minutes......like iron clad knifes...

But i don`t use these steels, i like good old toolsteels more. 1.2562 with high end heat treat like Marco Guldiman does, keeps an amazing edge for 1-2 weeks too. But you have to sharpen them properly...

greets Sebastian.


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## labor of love (Sep 21, 2019)

Sharpchef said:


> Also not good for the edge... Sorry but to remove an burr from the edge, short edge leading strokes are the way to go! Learn with straight razors, these guys mostly know their stuff... Untreated leather may be useful for sharpening tests like HHT or something, but not necessary. Any compound on leather strops is even more bad for the edge.
> 
> It would be cool if some pro chefs here would join a testing group and we can send some professional (no offense here!) sharpened blades to them to test. Most of you will change the mind and never ever come back to Shirogami and 3times touchup a day....
> 
> ...


Maybe there is some confusion with terminology going on here.
When I say strop on a stone I mean that I’m using a stropping motion to weaken the burr on a stone and finally deburr.

I do something kinda like what Jon suggests here and it’s totally fine and works great.


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## Chuckles (Sep 21, 2019)

Most of my knives I stop at gesshin 2K or natural red aoto. I have the JKI diamond stones for the powdered steels. 

I think when you are less experienced at sharpening the higher grit stones are useful for making sure the burr is totally removed. Once you get the hang of lower grit finishing it is the way to go for production environments. 

I play with all kinds of steels in the kitchen and they are all fine when done correctly. I found Kato to be quite chippy and I believe that is white steel. Only bad experience I have had with white steel in that regard. 

I do always have a sharp CPM154 knife as a backup in case it all hits the fan. For me it is like the AR15 in the trunk of the police cruiser. I can use whatever for the day to day but if/when it gets really extreme I know the powdered steel won’t stop cutting. Definitely not as fun to sharpen but holds a functional edge forever.


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## JBroida (Sep 21, 2019)

i feel like 3k-6k is a happy place for most kitchen use


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## inferno (Sep 21, 2019)

Edit: Inferno - You know better.


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## Sharpchef (Sep 21, 2019)

labor of love said:


> Maybe there is some confusion with terminology going on here.
> When I say strop on a stone I mean that I’m using a stropping motion to weaken the burr on a stone and finally deburr.
> 
> I do something kinda like what Jon suggests here and it’s totally fine and works great.




Ok i got you... I don`t have the time to watch the whole video.. But the things i see are so called bad... Stropping on stones, makes burr  ..

Greets Sebastian.


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## kayman67 (Sep 21, 2019)

Really, 125? That's kept quite secret. Damn! There is no info on the news about it. And I've been in Germany for a while. Incredible how well controlled were the news feeds. Even on Facebook.

Back to business.

Maybe one reason so many like using these is the fact that they can easily get hair shaving sharp even with 100 grit. I haven't tried on anything lower.


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## SaladApe (Sep 21, 2019)

So I strop on a Naniwa 3000, which is great for a bit, but after a few hours chopping acidic stuff on plastic boards - the reality of our environment is colour-coded h&S plastic boards, no wood - I'm stropping again, or maybe dropping down to 1000 or even raising a quick burr on a 22o and pulling the edge through the pine trim on the back of the deli counter to straighten it. It's a 10-hour shift and I don't take a break, so I just don't have time for anything fancy. What I need is something totally hassle-free. What I WANT is something that gives me the aesthetic pleasure of an artisan-made tool, the tactile pleasure of carbon and an edge that keeps on jumping. I'm hoping that the equation between want and need is solveable.


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## SilverSwarfer (Sep 21, 2019)

SaladApe said:


> So I strop on a Naniwa 3000, which is great for a bit, but after a few hours chopping acidic stuff on plastic boards - the reality of our environment is colour-coded h&S plastic boards, no wood - I'm stropping again, or maybe dropping down to 1000 or even raising a quick burr on a 22o and pulling the edge through the pine trim on the back of the deli counter to straighten it. It's a 10-hour shift and I don't take a break, so I just don't have time for anything fancy. What I need is something totally hassle-free. What I WANT is something that gives me the aesthetic pleasure of an artisan-made tool, the tactile pleasure of carbon and an edge that keeps on jumping. I'm hoping that the equation between want and need is solveable.


Check out this post. @stringer uses his blades hard in a high volume pro kitchen. What’s shared here is very useful (for me at least!).

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/durability-testing-watanabe-pro-gyuto.41263/


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## stringer (Sep 21, 2019)

For the record. I vote for a 2k finish on work knives. I mostly only strop between stones. Although I do like to finish on a little felt or denim at home. And for quick touch-ups, I use a ceramic hone. But I've never used HSS or powdered metals or anything like that. I am definitely in the thin behind the edge with a fat microbevel camp.


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## panda (Sep 21, 2019)

you guys will get a kick out of this:
my most used knife is a hiromoto white2 honyaki that i only sharpen on a chosera 400! and then deburr on hard felt block from dave martell. then extend the life of the edge with mac black.

i too keep a 'backup knife for when sh1t hits the fan' where you cant worry about the edge at all. mine is a monosteel yoshihiro ginsanko that i've modified quite a bit.

ive been wanting to get a jki diamond 1k for a while now. i just currently dont sharpen very often so havent gotten around to it yet.


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## HRC_64 (Sep 22, 2019)

panda said:


> you guys will get a kick out of this:
> my most used knife is a hiromoto white2 honyaki that i only sharpen on a chosera 400! and then deburr on hard felt block from dave martell. then extend the life of the edge with mac black.
> 
> i too keep a 'backup knife for when sh1t hits the fan' where you cant worry about the edge at all. mine is a monosteel yoshihiro ginsanko that i've modified quite a bit.
> ...



No iron cladding? You must not be a Pro


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## labor of love (Sep 22, 2019)

panda said:


> you guys will get a kick out of this:
> my most used knife is a hiromoto white2 honyaki that i only sharpen on a chosera 400! and then deburr on hard felt block from dave martell. then extend the life of the edge with mac black.
> 
> i too keep a 'backup knife for when sh1t hits the fan' where you cant worry about the edge at all. mine is a monosteel yoshihiro ginsanko that i've modified quite a bit.
> ...


I love chosera 400 > shapton pro 2k.


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## Gregmega (Sep 22, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> No iron cladding? You must not be a Pro



Dude. It’s still a gd carbon knife. What is your damage.


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## suntravel (Sep 22, 2019)

Stropping on stones will make most time a wire edge, and stropping along the egde will kill any bite and makes nice scratces for mikrochipping.

From my experience about 45° to the edge works best, direktion depends on if you want to push or pull cut.

Short strokes less than 1/2" with as little pressure as possible on both sides, and there is no noticible burr, even with an 1k stone

Regards

Uwe


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## labor of love (Sep 22, 2019)

suntravel said:


> Stropping on stones will make most time a wire edge


Stropping motions on stones is how I remove the long metal particles off the edge.


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## suntravel (Sep 22, 2019)

Well look at this:

https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/10/20/sharpening-with-the-king-1k6k-combination-stone/

Regards

Uwe


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## ian (Sep 22, 2019)

suntravel said:


> Well look at this:
> 
> https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/10/20/sharpening-with-the-king-1k6k-combination-stone/
> 
> ...



Huh, that’s a cool article. Thanks for the link.

May have to spend the next week reading everything else on that site...


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## labor of love (Sep 22, 2019)

We might be talking pass each other right now. Continuous stropping motion on a stone is knocking the burr back and forth thus weakening it and making it easy to deburr. Sometimes the burr just breaks off on it’s on. 
Maybe you and Carter are right, maybe the burr is raised somewhat in this process. But the goal is to make the burr as fragile as possible so it can deburr easily.


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## kayman67 (Sep 22, 2019)

With (some) high HRC alloys you can actually hear the burr leaving the edge like this 
So, take everything with a bit of salt and pepper.


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## Chuckles (Sep 22, 2019)

That’s an interesting article. Seems to support that the technique Jon and Murray demonstrate is a fast and practical way of producing a durable and functional cutting edge. No surprise that it is the technique used by most of the people here. I would think that an experienced free hand sharpener would show even stronger results than jig sharpening because they can react to feedback. And it is the quality of the feedback that makes white steel an attractive option in the kitchen.


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## suntravel (Sep 22, 2019)

Nope a good Jig gives better feedback and way better pressure control, with a jig you can even feel if the grinding ist done without pressure on a shapton 30k or Escher, because the friction will be higher if the bevel ist complete polished.

But this is nerd stuff, with 3k i need less than 50% strokes compared to freehand because every stroke hits the egde, removes less steel for the same (better) result.

And with low pressure no probs with burr 

Regards

Uwe


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## Chuckles (Sep 22, 2019)

Not trying to open up the jig conversation in this thread. I am sure they work for those who use them. I have never used one so my opinion is far from fully informed. I can see their value when constructing an experiment like the one in the article. 

I never seen anybody have trouble getting a white steel knife sharp if they have ever successfully sharpened a knife. Especially if they are coming from stainless.


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## labor of love (Sep 22, 2019)

suntravel said:


> Nope a good Jig gives better feedback and way better pressure control, with a jig you can even feel if the grinding ist done without pressure on a shapton 30k or Escher, because the friction will be higher if the bevel ist complete polished.
> 
> But this is nerd stuff, with 3k i need less than 50% strokes compared to freehand because every stroke hits the egde, removes less steel for the same (better) result.
> 
> ...


Oh. You’re one of those people


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## suntravel (Sep 22, 2019)

Yep some of those witch ist thinking believing is for church, and kitchenknife performance can be measured, so its scientific 

Regards

Uwe


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## HRC_64 (Sep 22, 2019)

Gregmega said:


> Dude. It’s still a gd carbon knife...



wrought iron vs carbon steel ...knife maintenance?...not interchangeble...sorry bro


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## K813zra (Sep 22, 2019)

suntravel said:


> Yep some of those witch ist thinking believing is for church, and kitchenknife performance can be measured, so its scientific
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



All I know is that I rub steel on a rock and then cut things after. It can be magic for all I care.


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## labor of love (Sep 22, 2019)

suntravel said:


> Yep some of those witch ist thinking believing is for church, and kitchenknife performance can be measured, so its scientific
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe


The irony being you sound almost religious about your own belief system when it comes to sharpening. 

But hey, to each their own.


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## suntravel (Sep 22, 2019)

Well my main business ist process improvement in a metal working industry, and my hobby before kitchen knifes was drag and roadracing....

... all could be measured by key numbers like knife performance also, no religion at this point 

Regards

Uwe


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## stringer (Sep 22, 2019)

suntravel said:


> Well my main business ist process improvement in a metal working industry, and my hobby before kitchen knifes was drag and roadracing....
> 
> ... all could be measured by key numbers like knife performance also, no religion at this point
> 
> ...



How many pounds of zucchini can it chop?


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## suntravel (Sep 22, 2019)

stringer said:


> How many pounds of zucchini can it chop?



zuccini is not that picky regarding sharpness, but witch steel witch grind do you think of ?

Regards

Uwe


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## labor of love (Sep 22, 2019)

Sorry, I was just having some fun with you with my last comment.
I’ll never use a jig but I’ll keep an eye on that other thread you started. It does sound interesting.


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## stringer (Sep 22, 2019)

suntravel said:


> zuccini is not that picky regarding sharpness, but witch steel witch grind do you think of ?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Uwe



I guess I need to try some PM HSS next to see what it's all about. But normally I prefer knives with thick spines that are as thin behind the edge as possible. I don't know much about scientifically testing sharpness but I do know how many metric tons of zucchini, or chuck flap, or chicken a given blade can chop or slice or dice before I get annoyed and decide to resharpen.


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## SilverSwarfer (Sep 22, 2019)

Excuse my apparent ignorance: can anyone confirm whether I’m correct in my understanding of what’s referenced here-

PM HSS = Powder Metallurgy High Speed Steel? 

Examples: “Vanadis 23” seems to be highly touted here. That’s the steel, not the knife right? I would be grateful to have a reference to learn more about knives and steels available that are relevant in the kitchen.


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## labor of love (Sep 22, 2019)

stringer said:


> I guess I need to try some PM HSS next to see what it's all about. But normally I prefer knives with thick spines that are as thin behind the edge as possible. I don't know much about scientifically testing sharpness but I do know how many metric tons of zucchini, or chuck flap, or chicken a given blade can chop or slice or dice before I get annoyed and decide to resharpen.


Have you used a mazaki yet?


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## McMan (Sep 22, 2019)

SilverSwarfer said:


> Excuse my apparent ignorance: can anyone confirm whether I’m correct in my understanding of what’s referenced here-
> 
> PM HSS = Powder Metallurgy High Speed Steel?
> 
> Examples: “Vanadis 23” seems to be highly touted here. That’s the steel, not the knife right? I would be grateful to have a reference to learn more about knives and steels available that are relevant in the kitchen.



This is a great source of knife steel info, many many different steels listed:
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php


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## Barmoley (Sep 22, 2019)

Also, http://knifesteelnerds.com/ is an excellent resource by a member here @Larrin . Check it out it also talks about HSS steels.


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## panda (Sep 22, 2019)

jig, lol, not even gonna touch that topic.


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## suntravel (Sep 23, 2019)

stringer said:


> I guess I need to try some PM HSS next to see what it's all about. But normally I prefer knives with thick spines that are as thin behind the edge as possible. I don't know much about scientifically testing sharpness but I do know how many metric tons of zucchini, or chuck flap, or chicken a given blade can chop or slice or dice before I get annoyed and decide to resharpen.



You can try a Sukenari HAP40, but only 3mm at the spine. Not sure if there is an chef knife with a thicker spine and HSS-PM ready availible.

Regards

Uwe


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## GorillaGrunt (Sep 23, 2019)

I maybe go a little finer than some, say a 5k or natural around the 5-6k range. Then touch up after each use on some sort of finishing stone, always starting the day with a fresh edge; when it doesn’t seem like the edge is holding anymore I drop down a stone to something like 2k. I keep a muddy Aiiwatani at work in the rare case I need or want to touch up during a shift, less than a minute does it, as fast as using a rod. I also have a minimum of two knives on me at any time - I call it Blackbeard style: drop the spent one and pick up a freshie. Rarely necessary.

A Mac black rod is really just a 3k synth anyway, although I get the comment about optics. And it matters whether one likes to sharpen or considers it a necessary evil.

To the original topic, yes, Munetoshi, Mazaki, Shigehiro come to mind. Once I got used to working with reactive cladding it wasn’t a big issue, although having a stainless knife of some sort around is a good idea. That said I have more knives in blue and white 1 - but maybe that has more to do with the smiths and their choice of steel; I haven’t had a Hinoura but I hear his white 2 is the bomb dot com. Conversely, I’ve tried some high alloy PM tool steels and not found any real benefit over something like R2 or CPM154. And stainless cladding does make things easier but is a melonfarmer to thin on stones.


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## panda (Sep 23, 2019)

GorillaGrunt said:


> I maybe go a little finer than some, say a 5k or natural around the 5-6k range. Then touch up after each use on some sort of finishing stone, always starting the day with a fresh edge; when it doesn’t seem like the edge is holding anymore I drop down a stone to something like 2k. I keep a muddy Aiiwatani at work in the rare case I need or want to touch up during a shift, less than a minute does it, as fast as using a rod. I also have a minimum of two knives on me at any time - I call it Blackbeard style: drop the spent one and pick up a freshie. Rarely necessary.
> 
> A Mac black rod is really just a 3k synth anyway, although I get the comment about optics. And it matters whether one likes to sharpen or considers it a necessary evil.
> 
> To the original topic, yes, Munetoshi, Mazaki, Shigehiro come to mind. Once I got used to working with reactive cladding it wasn’t a big issue, although having a stainless knife of some sort around is a good idea. That said I have more knives in blue and white 1 - but maybe that has more to do with the smiths and their choice of steel; I haven’t had a Hinoura but I hear his white 2 is the bomb dot com. Conversely, I’ve tried some high alloy PM tool steels and not found any real benefit over something like R2 or CPM154. And stainless cladding does make things easier but is a melonfarmer to thin on stones.


i really did not care for hinoura heat treat, felt like glass on stones.


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## Matus (Sep 23, 2019)

suntravel said:


> You can try a Sukenari HAP40, but only 3mm at the spine. Not sure if there is an chef knife with a thicker spine and HSS-PM ready availible.



There most likely isn't - first, very few have the possibility (and willingness) to forge modern HSS. And when doing stock removal - especially given how abrasion resistant these steels are - every 1/10 of a millimeter of thickness that must be ground off adds to processing time and costs. 

Also most knives available in HSS tend to be pretty thin, because to thin a high HRC HSS by hand is a chore


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## suntravel (Sep 23, 2019)

Yeah i know, thats the reason im buying grinding belts in 50pc bundles 

Regards

Uwe


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## Eitan78 (Sep 23, 2019)

SaladApe said:


> So I strop on a Naniwa 3000, which is great for a bit, but after a few hours chopping acidic stuff on plastic boards - the reality of our environment is colour-coded h&S plastic boards, no wood - I'm stropping again, or maybe dropping down to 1000 or even raising a quick burr on a 22o and pulling the edge through the pine trim on the back of the deli counter to straighten it. It's a 10-hour shift and I don't take a break, so I just don't have time for anything fancy. What I need is something totally hassle-free. What I WANT is something that gives me the aesthetic pleasure of an artisan-made tool, the tactile pleasure of carbon and an edge that keeps on jumping. I'm hoping that the equation between want and need is solveable.



I think you might want to try 52100 steel 
It will pretty much cover everything you mentioned in my experience.


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## SaladApe (Sep 23, 2019)

Is 52100 similar to Swedish steel? I'm obviously displaying my ignorance here...


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## labor of love (Sep 23, 2019)

SaladApe said:


> Is 52100 similar to Swedish steel? I'm obviously displaying my ignorance here...


No.

unlike shirogami, 52100 is a steel that scores above average in every category I can think of when considering carbon steel. Very good to sharpen(not the best), good retention(not the best), very good edge stability(not the best), low reactivity, very good toughness.

I think 52100 is the most pragmatic carbon steel but it’s not the sexiest. It’s pretty good in everyway but not the best at anything.


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## ian (Sep 23, 2019)

But how do you *pronounce* 52100?

I’m in the fifty two one hundred camp, but I could see a case being made for five twenty one hundred. 

Been loving the 52100 steel on my newly acquired Marko. The low reactivity is amazing....


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## labor of love (Sep 23, 2019)

I enjoy 52100. I think it’s really great for kitchen work. I also say fifty two one hundred.


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## suntravel (Sep 23, 2019)

SaladApe said:


> Is 52100 similar to Swedish steel? I'm obviously displaying my ignorance here...



Made from Uddeholm in Sweden with cleaner composition its called _UHB20C15

Swedish steel means only any kind of steel made in Sweden 

Shirogami may sounds cooler or more traditional, but ist simply an industrial made steel from Hitachi. Industrial steel making has a way longer tradition in europe and this way of steel making was brought to japan from europe 

Regards

Uwe_


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## MarkC (Sep 23, 2019)

labor of love said:


> I enjoy 52100. I think it’s really great for kitchen work. I also say fifty two one hundred.


Recommend some knives to try with this steel? Not seeing it much other than from small custom houses.


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## stringer (Sep 23, 2019)

MarkC said:


> Recommend some knives to try with this steel? Not seeing it much other than from small custom houses.




Shi.Han


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## labor of love (Sep 23, 2019)

Shihan, Marko or Kippington.


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## parbaked (Sep 23, 2019)

MarkC said:


> Recommend some knives to try with this steel? Not seeing it much other than from small custom houses.


Kramer Zwilling if you don't like small custom houses: https://www.zwilling.com/us/zwilling/cutlery/kramer-euroline-carbon/
It is a great steel that is readily available to small makers. If you decide to go that way, you have many options...
I have knives by Shihan and Tony LaSeur...both excellent.


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## aboynamedsuita (Sep 23, 2019)

MarkC said:


> Recommend some knives to try with this steel? Not seeing it much other than from small custom houses.





parbaked said:


> Kramer Zwilling if you don't like small custom houses: https://www.zwilling.com/us/zwilling/cutlery/kramer-euroline-carbon/
> It is a great steel that is readily available to small makers. If you decide to go that way, you have many options...
> I have knives by Shihan and Tony LaSeur...both excellent.



The ZK 52100 can be improved a lot with a good regrind. I had the handle replaced and the blade reground/convexed/polished. I am kind of surprised how good it is now for a “factory” knife

View attachment 61634


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## bahamaroot (Sep 24, 2019)

Love my Marko 52100, one of my favorite knives. Can't wait to get a hold of one of his workhorses.


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## M1k3 (Sep 24, 2019)

ian said:


> But how do you *pronounce* 52100?
> 
> I’m in the fifty two one hundred camp, but I could see a case being made for five twenty one hundred.
> 
> Been loving the 52100 steel on my newly acquired Marko. The low reactivity is amazing....



Five, two, one, double zero. That's just how it read to me.


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## Nemo (Sep 24, 2019)

I always called it fifty-two-one-hunderd.


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## Xenif (Sep 24, 2019)

ian said:


> But how do you *pronounce* 52100?
> 
> I’m in the fifty two one hundred camp, but I could see a case being made for five twenty one hundred.
> 
> Been loving the 52100 steel on my newly acquired Marko. The low reactivity is amazing....


Goman-nisen-hyaku-ko obviously, and now sounds totally super cool


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## labor of love (Sep 24, 2019)

Van Halen has a great album titled “5150” I often get it confused with 52100 in conversations.


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## panda (Sep 24, 2019)

aboynamedsuita said:


> The ZK 52100 can be improved a lot with a good regrind. I had the handle replaced and the blade reground/convexed/polished. I am kind of surprised how good it is now for a “factory” knife
> 
> View attachment 61634


Except it has the most retarded blade shape.


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## GoodMagic (Sep 24, 2019)

52 100.


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## labor of love (Sep 24, 2019)

panda said:


> Except it has the most retarded blade shape.


Well, that’s what makes it a Kramer after all.


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## Carl Kotte (Sep 24, 2019)

Hrhrrmhrrrm!!!! 52100 is pronounced femtiotvåtusenetthundra or femtiotvå hundra. Not sure it sounds cool though [emoji6]
Maybe it should simply change its name to 90210 now that the series is up and running again.


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## minibatataman (Sep 24, 2019)

Nemo said:


> I always called it fifty-two-one-hunderd.


Same
Or
اثنين و خمسون ألف و مءة


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## mattador (Sep 24, 2019)

HRC_64 said:


> IMHO anyone using iron cladding in a pro environment needs their head checked



Welp I guess I brought the wrong single bevels to work for all those years.


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## minibatataman (Sep 24, 2019)

aboynamedsuita said:


> The ZK 52100 can be improved a lot with a good regrind. I had the handle replaced and the blade reground/convexed/polished. I am kind of surprised how good it is now for a “factory” knife
> 
> View attachment 61634


Can't see the attachment, can you re- post please?



HRC_64 said:


> IMHO anyone using iron cladding in a pro environment needs their head checked



Why? It's easier to touch up and you have a keener edge. I had one iron clad white #2 knife and 2 carbon mono knives in my kit. The only stainless I use are a bread knife and a semi stainless honesuki. Once I built up a patina I didn't even care much for them. They work just fine.


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## Marek07 (Sep 24, 2019)

MarkC said:


> Recommend some knives to try with this steel? Not seeing it much other than from small custom houses.


In addition to the already mentioned Kippington, La Seur and Zwilling Kramer knives, there's Haburn and Comet knives in 52100 you could look at.


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## MarkC (Sep 24, 2019)

Marek07 said:


> In addition to the already mentioned Kippington, La Seur and Zwilling Kramer knives, there's Haburn and Comet knives in 52100 you could look at.


Thanks for the mention. With the exception of the Kramer's, the others are small custom producers typically with very limited availability (like none most of the time). I wonder why this particular steel hasn't caught on beyond the custom guys.


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## suntravel (Sep 24, 2019)

There are some of 52100 steel from chef knifes to go in the shop, but nerver tryed one frome these, so no clue about the quality...

Regards

Uwe


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## Barmoley (Sep 24, 2019)

MarkC said:


> Thanks for the mention. With the exception of the Kramer's, the others are small custom producers typically with very limited availability (like none most of the time). I wonder why this particular steel hasn't caught on beyond the custom guys.



Most likely because very few large companies produce non stainless knives outside of Japan. In Japan mostly Japanese steel is used. Many western custom makers use it though, as has been mentioned already.


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## parbaked (Sep 24, 2019)

MarkC said:


> I wonder why this particular steel hasn't caught on beyond the custom guys.



Because it is a carbon steel and most newer, mass produced knives are stainless.
52100 is also relatively new for knife making and wasn't on the radar of European companies making carbon knives before the 1980s, like Sabatier or Herder.


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## Sharpchef (Sep 24, 2019)

52100/1.3505/100Cr6 is one of the most produced steels for especially ball bearings and so it is very cheap compared to other knife steels. I think it is a very good steel (made some knifes out of it) and quite "easy" to heat treat even for hobbyists... 

Especially in pro environment monosteel blades have the advantage against japanese iron, once patinated you may use them in a hotel to cut an fruit salad for the next day without issues of bad taste/colour etc.....

With good HT it will outlast the edge retention of white and blue.... Best treated with 8k shapton pro (preassure control Bogdan System) or 5k Naniwa Chosera/Pro by hand, and if it is not to hard (like about HRC 61) it can be steeled with (DICK Micro) for a long time...

Z Kramer Carbon has a very nice rock chopping shape, but has to be thinned a little, but you can do this within a few hours on stones.

Greets Sebastian.


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## Sharpchef (Sep 24, 2019)

parbaked said:


> Because it is a carbon steel and most newer, mass produced knives are stainless.
> 52100 is also relatively new for knife making and wasn't on the radar of European companies making carbon knives before the 1980s, like Sabatier or Herder.



After Roman Landes released his book, very much EU knifemakers used and still use this steel! Cause for its fine grain it is very good, the little amount of chromium and the good carbon content (especially our better german 1.3505 steel quality) makes it to the best kitchen knife steel in my point of view, if you look at price/performance ratio of the steel. 

Greets Sebastian.


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